# Epsom Salts/Magnesium Sulphate from Woolies



## welly2

Any reason that this https://www.woolworths.com.au/Shop/Browse/pantry-international-health-food/salt-pepper?name=woolworths-select-salt-epsom&productId=746176 couldn't be used as the magnesium sulphate addition when I'm messing with water additions? $6 for a KG of the stuff as opposed to $6 for a couple of hundred grams of it, it feels like there's going to be a catch.


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## tavas

I've used it a couple of times, didn't kill me. I stopped using it as I no longer bother with water additions. 

Is also good for a mineral bath if you have sore joints.


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## welly2

tavas said:


> I've used it a couple of times, didn't kill me. I stopped using it as I no longer bother with water additions.
> 
> Is also good for a mineral bath if you have sore joints.


I put all my local water info into the water calculator in Beersmith and to create a Burton water profile, it suggests 11g of Epsom Salts etc. It's something I thought I'd have a bit of an experiment with and, as you say, if it feels like an effort for little reward, there is always my sore joints.


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## Mikeyr

It's clearly food grade so why not!


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## Ducatiboy stu

Yep. Its perfect for Burtonising water. Dont over do though.....you might need shared in sorbent


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## Bribie G

The Aldi version is the only one I ever use for brewing, the Woolies product is probably made in the same plant.


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## manticle

It's fine but I question the need to add extra magnesium to an all malt brew or to replicate an alleged water profile from an unknown point in history.


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## Dan Pratt

Hi Welly,

To burtonize the water is one thing, but to make the water like burton on trent....thats extreme additions.

Randy Mosher took the Burton on Trent ppm data and dialled it back to be more suitable for modern brewing of IPA's

Calcium - 140ppm
Magnesium - 18ppm
Sodium - 25ppm
Sulphate - 300ppm
Chloride - 55ppm
Bicarbonate - 110ppm
total hardness - 424
Alkalinity ppm - 91
RA - is minus 20

Is that what your trying to achieve?


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## klangers

Yep, works well if you want some sulphates (for hop goodness) without the calcium (eg an IPA with my local water).


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## manticle

How much calcium you get in your water klangers?


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## klangers

Allegedly 90 ppm. But from experience I believe it's far more than this by the time it reaches me as I've had pH issues with pale beers unless I dose some baking powder etc as per my estimate of Ca(~120ppm). Only about 30 ppm sulphates.

But then again I was always fond of chemistry and it makes it more fun.

EDIT: Yep needed to re read that lol


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## manticle

Furry nuts


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## welly2

Pratty1 said:


> Hi Welly,
> 
> To burtonize the water is one thing, but to make the water like burton on trent....thats extreme additions.
> 
> Randy Mosher took the Burton on Trent ppm data and dialled it back to be more suitable for modern brewing of IPA's
> 
> Calcium - 140ppm
> Magnesium - 18ppm
> Sodium - 25ppm
> Sulphate - 300ppm
> Chloride - 55ppm
> Bicarbonate - 110ppm
> total hardness - 424
> Alkalinity ppm - 91
> RA - is minus 20
> 
> Is that what your trying to achieve?


According to beersmith:

Calcium: 299.91 ppm
Sulfate: 722.95 ppm
Magnesium: 53.09 ppm
Chloride: 27.90 ppm
Sodium: 63.66 ppm
Bicarbonate: 296.72 ppm
PH: 7.00

Now I don't know where they got their numbers from but I'll look them up. I'm going this literally as experimentation as opposed to something I'll put regularly in my brewing schedule. It's a curiosity thing more than anything. I'm planning on spending a bit of time making English bitters and so interested in making some Burton style bitters - Pedigree, 6X etc. as well as making water adjustments to make Yorkshire bitters. I'm just dabbling!


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## rude

So what has the brewer done to this water profile to get it in the ballpark ?

You don't know so that's why its not a good thing to follow water profiles from around the world
but thats my take on it I could be wrong definately not a gun on water chem

I've been treading lightly doing Brun yellow full balanced & dry but must have a go at his pale ale profile

I like Ducatiboystu's advice for too much mg buy shares in sorbent :lol:


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## Ducatiboy stu

rude said:


> I like Ducatiboystu's advice for too much mg buy shares in sorbent :lol:


You will thank me for it 


I did an ESB with Gypsum & Epsom salts. You could certainly taste the minerals in the beer, was actually rather nice....


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## Bribie G

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You will thank me for it
> 
> 
> I did an ESB with Gypsum & Epsom salts. You could certainly taste the minerals in the beer, was actually rather nice....


Traditionally, the distinctive mineral "nose" on Burton beers is called "The Burton Snatch".

Of course somewhat different connotations nowadays as I said to my Aunt Fanny.


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## NeilArge

Bribie G said:


> Traditionally, the distinctive mineral "nose" on Burton beers is called "The Burton Snatch".
> 
> Of course somewhat different connotations nowadays as I said to my Aunt Fanny.


Not exactly the bouquet I'd be looking for in my beer...


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## wynnum1

_Magnesium oxide can that be used have seen that it can be used in plants to supply __Magnesium without the sulphate and is used as a supplement for horses. _


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## manticle

Are you joking?


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## wynnum1

Why.


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## manticle

I'm flummoxed as to the logic.
Firstly magnesium sulphate can be a useful salt because both parts (well more than two but pretend- magnesium and sulphate) have a function. Magnesium drops mash pH and helps with yeast function. The sulphate part helps brighten hop profile.
Pretty tried and true, although most all malt, grain based worts should provide sufficient magnesium anyway.

You've taken a product that is used on the garden and according to something you've read somewhere is ok for horses. The only similarity is that it has magnesium in it. By that logic, sodium hydroxide should be fine to add to my chips.

I'm at a loss as to why you would think your gardening product that is totally different chemically would compare to the product being discussed.


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## wynnum1

I asked a question and do not think you have answered and its not just a garden chemical its used as a supplement .


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## manticle

Supplement for what though?
What would be the intended purpose for use in the mash?


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## welly2

rude said:


> So what has the brewer done to this water profile to get it in the ballpark ?
> 
> You don't know so that's why its not a good thing to follow water profiles from around the world
> but thats my take on it I could be wrong definately not a gun on water chem
> 
> I've been treading lightly doing Brun yellow full balanced & dry but must have a go at his pale ale profile
> 
> I like Ducatiboystu's advice for too much mg buy shares in sorbent :lol:


I'm assuming that the guy who wrote beersmith got the water profile for Burton water from the official source. Either way, it would be easy enough to check up on and create my own Burton profile based on my local water profile.


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## manticle

Burton is a place that has existed for a long time.
There's no guarantee that either the water profile has remained exactly the same at all points in history nor that local brewers used the water as is, without treatment and/or dilution.

Better to tailor the mash pH to your preferred and add salts based on desired results/flavour than emulate a dubious and alleged water profile.

To answer your original question though - yes that particular product is fine.


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## TimT

As to magnesium oxide, I suppose why not? The ions will separate out as it dissolves in the water and you'll get magnesium to aid the mash and, well, the oxygen won't do any harm. 

The only qualm I'd have with using products that are not sold as food (eg Epsom Salts) is maybe there's something in the production process that normally a food authority wouldn't let happen.


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## welly2

manticle said:


> Burton is a place that has existed for a long time.
> There's no guarantee that either the water profile has remained exactly the same at all points in history nor that local brewers used the water as is, without treatment and/or dilution.
> 
> Better to tailor the mash pH to your preferred and add salts based on desired results/flavour than emulate a dubious and alleged water profile.
> 
> To answer your original question though - yes that particular product is fine.


Cheers manticle! I don't disagree with you but this is me just dabbling and seeing what difference additions to water makes. And for a particular beer style (English bitter or IPA), I could do worse than using a Burton water profile as a starting point, even if it's not historically accurate. Or perhaps even a Tadcaster (in North Yorkshire) water profile where one of my favourite bitters comes from (Sam Smiths Old Brewery Bitter). It's a place to start and learn from and then I can go on from there.


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## manticle

Of course. Have a crack. Just be aware of the whys and wherefores.

TimT - for a start magnesium sulphate will drop mash pH; as far as I'm aware, magnesium oxide will raise it. I'm still not sure what the intended purpose of adding it would be from wynumm's perspective besides 'magnesium'. Chemistry doesn't work that way.


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## wynnum1

TimT said:


> As to magnesium oxide, I suppose why not? The ions will separate out as it dissolves in the water and you'll get magnesium to aid the mash and, well, the oxygen won't do any harm.
> 
> The only qualm I'd have with using products that are not sold as food (eg Epsom Salts) is maybe there's something in the production process that normally a food authority wouldn't let happen.


The fertilizer grade is about $15 a 25 kg bag and the food grade about $50 would suggest a difference .How the grain is grown i would suggest that if the barley or wheat had all the nutrients needed then they would already be in the grain.


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## TimT

_The fertilizer grade is about $15 a 25 kg bag and the food grade about $50 would suggest a difference ._

Yeah maybe though to me the difference that suggests itself is market incentives - people are happier to pay a premium for stuff that they're going to eat or drink - understandably. 

But I struggle to see what conceivably could be the difference between the product you get in brew stores and the product you get in the shops. 

_for a start magnesium sulphate will drop mash pH; as far as I'm aware, magnesium oxide will raise it._

Hm, hadn't thought of that.


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## wynnum1

The brew stores buys the 25 kg bags and repackages and woolies get theres already packaged in a trade name box.
If its food grade its all the same like buying home brand sugar.


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## klangers

The problem with magnesium oxide is that it's extremely stable - it takes a lot of energy to break the bond between the oxygen and magnesium. It's the chemical that results when you burn magnesium, and oxides of highly reactive metals are very stable (hence the use of passivation etc to make our lovely stainless steel covered in chromium oxide).

Stable compounds tend to be difficult to dissolve. Wikipedia places the solubility at 0.0086 g/100 mL (30 °C).


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## MHB

Personally I don't think there is any need to use MgSO4, a little Magnesium is necessary but as Manticle mentioned there is generally enough in the malt to supply what enzymes use as cofactors and yeast needs for various synthesis processes.
Too much has well known laxative effects and we know that more Calcium is beneficial so I would be much more inclined to use CaSO4, there is also a very real upper limit to the amount of Sulphate we want in a wort so if you use MgSO4 it just means you cant use as much CaSO4 as you might want without getting too close to the Sulphate limit.
If you really think you need to add MgSO4 to your beer I cant see any objection to the supermarket version, the stuff I looked at last night at woolies was BP (British Pharmacopeia) better than food grade

I would also be very careful using MgO, although its pretty unreactive, in an acidic environment you can get a conversion to Magnesium Hydroxide, there is a very powerful buffering reaction pushing toward about 8pH exactly the opposite of what we want as brewers.
Mark


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## Weizguy

Bribie G said:


> Traditionally, the distinctive mineral "nose" on Burton beers is called "The Burton Snatch".
> 
> Of course somewhat different connotations nowadays as I said to my Aunt Fanny.





TunofGrunt said:


> Not exactly the bouquet I'd be looking for in my beer...


Depends if you are brewing Berliner Weisse, which (to me, at least) has strong notes of the lady-parts.


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## kaiserben

Ahem, Wayward do a Berliner Weiss called Sour Puss.


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## mabrungard

With as little Mg as we need or want in our wort, I suggest that the typical Epsom Salts from the druggist is fine for our use. As already mentioned, you don't want to overdo it with Mg. The beer flavor will suffer. I recommend keeping Mg below 40 ppm, but while we were writing the Water book, John Palmer found a resource that said a higher Mg content was OK. I personally never go above 30 ppm. Mg is good in all pale ales and IPAs. Its not so good in other styles. The main benefit of using MgSO4 is that you get the SO4 without boosting Ca too much.

I did a big research article on Burton water that was published in the American Homebrewers Association, Zymurgy magazine. The brewers in Burton eventually found that using a combination of the highly mineralized deep groundwater and the lightly mineralized shallow groundwater (which was essentially River Trent water), produced the best beers. While those highly mineralized Burton profiles are accurate, they aren't what the brewers used.


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## MHB

Brings up an interesting question. What is the upper limit for Ca. I have seen 400ppm mentioned but that has been the amount you can get by the time you have added as much SO4 and Cl as you can - not the amount of Ca.
Really just a curiosity question, haven't seen much written on the effect of high Ca.

I really liked the treatment of salt additions in Water. I think its high time we moved away from trying to copy famous brewing water and toward a functional approach where we add the salts we need to achieve the desired flavour effects in the beer we are making, which is the direction Water appears to take (good book cheers).
Mark


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## Bribie G

Town brewing waters aren't necessarily what the breweries use. Years ago back in the days of Speedie, Yasmani and The New Darren, I did a project with Butters (kitten strangler) to try and recreate the old Websters Pennine Bitter - his granny used to work there.

After getting the local water info from the council and contacting a new micro that's started up the valley from the original brewery, It just came down to "who knows, it was just bore water".


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## Bribie G

I stopped using EZ water calculator as it was assuming that my system was a mash plus sparge setup and I couldn't get any handle on whether they meant I should add xyz salts to the mash water, then sparge with plain water, or halve the quantity for a full vol BIAB mash, as if I was treating the entire water volume that goes into mash then sparge ... So now I just chuck in a tsp of this and that to be on the safe side. I'd like to get back to a more MHB approach.

Does anyone know of a water calculator that takes full volume into consideration?


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## GalBrew

Bribie G said:


> I stopped using EZ water calculator as it was assuming that my system was a mash plus sparge setup and I couldn't get any handle on whether they meant I should add xyz salts to the mash water, then sparge with plain water, or halve the quantity for a full vol BIAB mash, as if I was treating the entire water volume that goes into mash then sparge ... So now I just chuck in a tsp of this and that to be on the safe side. I'd like to get back to a more MHB approach.
> 
> Does anyone know of a water calculator that takes full volume into consideration?


I thought one of the options on EZ water was to add all your additions to the mash or split it up with the mash and sparse? That being said I switched to the Brewers Friend water calc as I find it to be more accurate.


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## Bribie G

I've got BF but haven't gone that far into it.
Thanks for heads up, brewing today.


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## rude

What about Brun Water calc


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## mabrungard

MHB said:


> Brings up an interesting question. What is the upper limit for Ca. I have seen 400ppm mentioned but that has been the amount you can get by the time you have added as much SO4 and Cl as you can - not the amount of Ca.
> Really just a curiosity question, haven't seen much written on the effect of high Ca.


I researched the effect of calcium and magnesium on yeast a couple of years ago after having a Boh Pils lager fermentation do some really strange things. It turns out that there is plenty of existing research and journal articles on the effects of calcium and magnesium on yeast. Its just that we brewers have ignored that research and substituted that with the mantra that we need at least 50 ppm Ca for yeast health and performance. That research was published in the Brewers Association _The New Brewer_ magazine and in _Zymurgy_. 

In the case of lager yeasts, it turns out that they can be sensitive to high Ca content. Ca actually displaces Mg from yeast and the yeast actually needs the Mg more than it needs Ca. So that can be a bad thing. The good news is that most ale yeast appear to be adapted to higher Ca in our brewing water. Lager yeast appears to be less tolerant. 

With respect to the minimum Ca content, zero Ca in the water is OK since the malt supplies all the Ca the yeast need for their health. The need for 50 ppm is a real thing for ale yeast since that minimum content does help promote good flocculation and beer clearing. Burton beers were known for their clarity...probably because their water had 100+ ppm Ca in it. Regarding the maximum Ca, I have no idea! However, we should recognize that bad effect of Ca and its tendency to displace Mg, so don't get carried away for no reason. In my opinion, don't add any more Ca than necessary to provide the level of SO4 and Cl that you want in your beer.


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## MHB

Cheers, the old all good things in moderation...
I generally park my Ca at around 150ppm, my local water is pretty soft, 23ppm Ca and 6ppm of Mg, most of those two as Sulphate (Zn at .005ppm, that I do fix)
I have read lots on the benefits of Ca, as well as the ones you mentioned, 3-4 X Oxalate to prevent gushing, thermal protection of Amylase...
Will have to look a bit harder at the effects of Mg, its not like there is too much in my water.
Thanks again Mark


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## Ducatiboy stu

Well 



mabrungard said:


> In the case of lager yeasts, it turns out that they can be sensitive to high Ca content.


makes sense considering Lagers where originally made from fairly soft water


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## dr K

Bit off the op but in line with the current.
Salts (OK their ions) have three major, at least, impacts on the process and final beer, these impacts must not be looked at as singular effects.
pH (increase, decrease, buffering)
yeast health 
hop perception (bitterness)
Moderation (as mhb points out) is a good start.

K


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