# Warning To No Chillers



## Joshisgood (29/2/12)

Hey guys, had a bit of a fcuk up and thought I'd report it here so that anyone who reads this won't make the same mistake. I had a cube of a white rabbit dark ale clone which I brewed on Saturday, cube was filled right to the brim, plan was to ferment in the cube so a couple of nights ago I decided to pour 1.5 liters off to make a starter. Thought if I squeezed the air back out when done all would be well. Turns out I was wrong, I came home today to find the cube swollen right up with about 3 inches of headspace where there was none before and a nice krausen on top of the wort, I slowly opened the lid to let the pressure out and was greeted by a smell like rotten water and seaweed. Very upsetting stuff. So there it is, my sad story, I hope this stops someone from making the same stupid mistake I did. The end

Ps any opinions on the Cube? Should I throw it out or is there some hope for it yet?
Cheers


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## NickB (29/2/12)

Chuck it, not good at all. Only ever had one do this, and it had sat around for 13 months hidden from view. There's a lesson here - keep your cubes sealed or risk the wrath of the wild yeast!

Cheers


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## manticle (29/2/12)

If it smells like that, I wouldn't waste my time. Or you mean the cube itself?

Up to you. If I get infections, I usually just chuck as the heartbreak of getting a second one is..........well.....heartbreaking (and more expensive than a new cube).

However if you want to save it desparately because it's been your friend since you were 11, boil up HLT and fill the whole cube with boiling water and sodium percarbonate. Let sit for an hour, pour out solution, add unscented bleach and cover all surfaces. Rinse again with boiling water, empty, fill with sodium met solution, cover all surfaces, drain and let sit for 60 mins. Rinse with cool water (or more hot if you like), then starsan. Make sure you break apart the tap if there is one and get into the tap thread too.

Get your starter wort for NC from the left over stuff that doesn't make it in. Let it settle overnight, decant the clear wort, reboil and bob's your uncle.

Alternatively take some from the unhopped runnings while brewing and boil on the stove while you boil the main batch.

Did you pour off from the top or the tap?

I have previously made starters for cubes by pouring from the tap but I think my above two methods are much safer.


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## brettprevans (29/2/12)

Joshisgood said:


> Hey guys, had a bit of a fcuk up and thought I'd report it here so that anyone who reads this won't make the same mistake. I had a cube of a white rabbit dark ale clone which I brewed on Saturday, cube was filled right to the brim, plan was to ferment in the cube so a couple of nights ago I decided to pour 1.5 liters off to make a starter. Thought if I squeezed the air back out when done all would be well. Turns out I was wrong, I came home today to find the cube swollen right up with about 3 inches of headspace where there was none before and a nice krausen on top of the wort, I slowly opened the lid to let the pressure out and was greeted by a smell like rotten water and seaweed. Very upsetting stuff. So there it is, my sad story, I hope this stops someone from making the same stupid mistake I did. The end
> 
> Ps any opinions on the Cube? Should I throw it out or is there some hope for it yet?
> Cheers


Sorry but whats nochill got to do with it? U opened a container with wort, it got infected. U recon it wouldnt have got infected if it was chilled before u cubed it? 

Now as fir ur cube, clean it properly and its fine. Would u throw a fermentor out after an infection?. Bleech, pbw, starsan and its fine


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## QldKev (29/2/12)

I'd throw the cube too. 

And yes, if I had an infection in a fermentor it would get the toss too; $16 for a Bunnings fermentor makes the decision easy.


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## Joshisgood (29/2/12)

manticle said:


> If it smells like that, I wouldn't waste my time. Or you mean the cube itself?
> 
> Up to you. If I get infections, I usually just chuck as the heartbreak of getting a second one is..........well.....heartbreaking (and more expensive than a new cube).
> 
> ...


Thanks mate, I did mean the cube I'll definately be throwing out the contents. I poured out of the top as this cube isn't yet tapped. Did the same last week with another cube but poured from the tap and it was ok but I probably won't risk this again after today



citymorgue2 said:


> Sorry but whats nochill got to do with it? U opened a container with wort, it got infected. U recon it wouldnt have got infected if it was chilled before u cubed it?


Didn't mean it that way, I'm sure it would have been equally infected if the wort had been chilled, I just figured that no chillers would be the most likely bunch to have cubes of unfermented wort lying around and be tempted to do what i did. I do not blame no chill for what happened to me, I blame only myself.


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## Camo1234 (29/2/12)

Joshisgood said:


> Hey guys, had a bit of a fcuk up and thought I'd report it here so that anyone who reads this won't make the same mistake. I had a cube of a white rabbit dark ale clone which I brewed on Saturday, cube was filled right to the brim, plan was to ferment in the cube so a couple of nights ago I decided to pour 1.5 liters off to make a starter. Thought if I squeezed the air back out when done all would be well. Turns out I was wrong, I came home today to find the cube swollen right up with about 3 inches of headspace where there was none before and a nice krausen on top of the wort, I slowly opened the lid to let the pressure out and was greeted by a smell like rotten water and seaweed. Very upsetting stuff. So there it is, my sad story, I hope this stops someone from making the same stupid mistake I did. The end
> 
> Ps any opinions on the Cube? Should I throw it out or is there some hope for it yet?
> Cheers




Slightly off topic but what is your recipe for the Dark Ale Clone? :icon_cheers: 





Have you brewed it before or was this a maiden voyage?


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## Joshisgood (29/2/12)

Camo1234 said:


> Slightly off topic but what is your recipe for the Dark Ale Clone? :icon_cheers:
> Have you brewed it before or was this a maiden voyage?


it was to be my first time brewing it, I got the recipe from screwtop on the forums here. Wort smelled and tasted awesome before I fucked it up too. If you pm him I'm sure he'll send it to you.


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## Tony (29/2/12)

bleach will fix it.

When i seal up a hot cube..... i tip it on the side the heat treat the lid as well, and stand it back up after 20 min.

I have been stung like this by not heat sealing the lid.


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## dr K (29/2/12)

am I missing the point or is White Rabbit Dark Ale not open fermented?


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## bum (29/2/12)

In some dude's garage and without yeast pitched? No, probably not.


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## CONNOR BREWARE (29/2/12)

So will you let it run it's course for a few months? Go on you can always get another cube!


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## Joshisgood (29/2/12)

Tony said:


> bleach will fix it.
> 
> When i seal up a hot cube..... i tip it on the side the heat treat the lid as well, and stand it back up after 20 min.
> 
> I have been stung like this by not heat sealing the lid.


Cheers tony, I do always make sure to tip on sides after filling. How much bleach would you recommend to kill whatever's in ther? I've got the cube full of boiling water and sodium per carbonate now but might hit it with a bleach solution aswell


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## hando (29/2/12)

If you can get podcasts, there are some really good podcasts called Brew Strong. They have one on Cleaning and one on Sanitation. From what those guys were saying, there is no point sanitising until the cleaning is done. If you're satisfied there is no gunk or dirt or whatever on the surface of the cube then you can sanitise. Sanitisation is acheived through contact time of the sanitiser on the surfaces. I don't think you have to go overboard using one sanitisation method then another, then another. Just make sure it's clean, then sanitise. :icon_cheers:


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## Tony (29/2/12)

nice and strong..... about half a cup in a few liters. Take the seal out of the lid and put it in the cube with the bleach solution and put the lid on.

Give it a shake every 10 min for an hour or so and not much will live... trust me.

I have left cubes to go green and black with mould. A strong bleach solution and they are as good as new!

Oh..... rinse very well, and give it one final rinse with boiling water to make sure you get every last bit of the bleach out!


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## sponge (29/2/12)

Definitely remove the lid seal for cleaning as tony mentioned above.

Don't use a sharp object to get it out though. just hit it against a towel on a bench (to not damage the bench) and it should pop out, or at least one side pop out and just get it out with a spoon or something similar...

Those things can hide all sorts of nasties.



Sponge


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## Uncle Fester (1/3/12)

Also, I store the cube full of water with an aldi non scented dishwasher tablet in it.

keeps it as clean as a whistle. Also, the pasturisation effect of your next no-chill will pretty much sort out anything you may have missed with whatever option from above you choose.


Fester Out.


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## Trippers (1/3/12)

Funny I had my cube of EPA that i brewed on Saturday do the same thing. I though she was gonna blow!!! Its the first one i've had do it in probably 50 cubes + Maybe there was some wild yeasts in the air on Saturday night :drinks: ANyway a good reminder to keep everything spotless. Maybe i got a bit lazy... Its so depressing tipping out beer. Oh well 1 cube left and 1 fermenting. Looks and smells awesome. Cheers
Trippers


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## Dazza88 (1/3/12)

i have a small crack on the tap receving thread of a 20l willow jerry. from overtightening the tap i am unsure if i should chuck it or keep no chilling in it.

what do you people think?


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## Nick JD (1/3/12)

With nochilling in cubes, I'm pretty sure that 99% of swollen cubes happen like this:

1. Seal is lost on lid.

2. Air drawn in.

3. Dust in air contains microbes.

4. Microbes realise they have hit the microbial jackpot.

5. Swollen. 

It has very little to do with something inside the cube surviving the "canning" process.


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## mje1980 (1/3/12)

1.6ml bleach + 1.6ml vinegar in a litre of water. Fucks up nasties good n proper.


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## Dazza88 (1/3/12)

with what nick just described makes me think using the aforementioned jerry for no chill, with attention to cleaning and sanitising, it should be fine.


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## WarmBeer (1/3/12)

mje1980 said:


> 1.6ml bleach + 1.6ml vinegar in a litre of water. Fucks up nasties good n proper.


Please, never casually mention aciduated bleach cleaning without giving the proper, detailed, instructions for how to process it.

Always, always, add the bleach to the water (this is just good lab practice), THEN, once those 2 are mixed, add the vinegar to drop the pH.

Adding vinegar to undiluted bleach will give off gas that will f*ck you up.


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## Ross (1/3/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> Sorry but whats nochill got to do with it? U opened a container with wort, it got infected. U recon it wouldnt have got infected if it was chilled before u cubed it?
> 
> Now as fir ur cube, clean it properly and its fine. Would u throw a fermentor out after an infection?. Bleech, pbw, starsan and its fine




+1. Just give the cube a clean & sanitise, it'll be fine.

cheers Ross


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## S.E (1/3/12)

mje1980 said:


> 1.6ml bleach + 1.6ml vinegar in a litre of water. Fucks up nasties good n proper.



Another option is use a couple of litres hot caustic to clean the cube. Cleans the cube and dissolves the nasties at the same time. I usually slosh a little iodophor around before I refill and have never had any problems.


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## Florian (1/3/12)

Slightly :icon_offtopic: , but while we're talking about cleaning products:

I thought l'd be smart by covering my daughters cherry juice stained shirt in pure sodium per carbonate, roll it up and dump it in water for two days.

Well, here's the result:





If she was a teenager I guess there would be a chance she'd wear it, fortunately she is only two and a half.


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## JaseH (1/3/12)

Slosh a bit of metho on it, set a match to it, then go buy a plate chiller


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## the_new_darren (1/3/12)

Ross said:


> +1. Just give the cube a clean & sanitise, it'll be fine.
> 
> cheers Ross



That has to have been the most irresponsible load of frogshit I have ever seen come from your key board.

By your advice all laboratories in the world would simply employ "a quick clean and sanitise" rather than discarding or autoclaving contaminated equipment.

I hear the bullshit that the "canning" process, pasteurisation etc is all that is needed and I ask "why do laboratories use an autoclave at 121 C and a couple of atmospheres of pressure for sterilisation. Perhaps its because many bacteria are not killed at boiling?"

Perhaps Ross should do some research by typing BIOFILM into google and see how well his suggestion for cleaning/sanitising a previously infected cube will work. I suspect he is just trying to peddle more "sanitiser" without a care for the advice he has given

Cubes are cheaper than dumped beer. If your cube has been infected, dump it including your taps and transfer lines.

tnd


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## sim (1/3/12)

+1. Just give the cube a clean & sanitise, it'll be fine.

cheers Ross 



the_new_darren said:


> That has to have been the most irresponsible load of frogshit I have ever seen come from your key board.
> 
> By your advice all laboratories in the world would simply employ "a quick clean and sanitise" rather than discarding or autoclaving contaminated equipment.
> 
> Cubes are cheaper than dumped beer. If your cube has been infected, dump it including your taps and transfer lines.



mate i think the overall setiment of "it'll be fine" in this instance is sound enough advise. We're not acheiving laboratory sterilization when we do our 60min boil either but ..."it'll be fine". In some instances dumping the cube and fittings is good advise also, but heck theres enough plastic going down the drain already.


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## manticle (1/3/12)

I actually agree with Darren, at least to an extent.

I've had infections in cubes, sanitised the bejesus out of them, no chilled in them and got the same infection rear its ugly head. Had it happen with fermenters too (and starters in plastic bottles). Personally, I chuck my recyclable container in the recycling and buy a new one - not because I'm made of money (far from), not because I don't care about the environment (I do) but because I have experienced recurring infections by assuming clean and sanitise will be fine.

Everyone else's experience may vary of course - that's just mine.


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## sim (1/3/12)

yeah i tended to do kinda similar untill the paranoia drove me mad and i threw my cubes out permenantly, and chilled. Just noticing alot of "meh, chuck it" kinda sentiment bandying about, and i want to point out if you threw out every offending scrap of your brewery anytime you get a whiff of frogshit in your brew that would amount to a lot of plastic waste. 

:icon_offtopic: For the sake of everyone doing their bit and recycling, the plastic being recylcled doesnt just get turned back into what it was. The grade of plastic its turned into at best is not ripe with usefullness AFAIK.


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## manticle (1/3/12)

Very little about my brewing is 'meh' (although a lot of it is 'I'm not quite sure')


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## the_new_darren (1/3/12)

Sim,
Im not saying you need an autoclave for homebrewing but simply that there are plenty of micro-organisms that can survive 100 C and hence an autoclave runs at 121 C for liquid and 130+ for solids.

If HB sanitisers were half as effective as "sprouted" then Im sure that hospitals and laboratories would move to a simple wash and sanitise methodology.

Now, if you have a porous plastic container with a previous infection, unless you clean and THEN autoclave you will see the same infection come back time and time again. This HAS been proven everyday in microbiological laboratories.

Here is some reading for you as a starting place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofilm

cheers

tnd


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## bradsbrew (1/3/12)

manticle said:


> I actually agree with Darren, at least to an extent.
> 
> I've had infections in cubes, sanitised the bejesus out of them, no chilled in them and got the same infection rear its ugly head. Had it happen with fermenters too (and starters in plastic bottles). Personally, I chuck my recyclable container in the recycling and buy a new one - not because I'm made of money (far from), not because I don't care about the environment (I do) but because I have experienced recurring infections by assuming clean and sanitise will be fine.
> 
> Everyone else's experience may vary of course - that's just mine.



yeah but dont you also ferment in your cubes?

Due to laziness I have in the past left a cube sit for a week or so after tipping the contents into fermenter. They can get pretty manky and furry inside. I good few rinses then a couple of cleans with 100% sod perc followed by a few more boiling water rinses and the cubes still going strong. I have never had an infection from the cube on the couple of times I have got infections it from yeast issues post cube.

Cheers


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## Nick JD (1/3/12)

the_new_darren said:


> why do laboratories use an autoclave at 121 C



Why don't laboratories make beer? 

Is it because they are not breweries?

Why do breweries not autoclave everything?

Is it because they are not laboratories? That sterility isn't necessary when you pitch 100,000,000,000 yeast cells and then ask them to multiply?

Would I reuse a cube that had become infected? No. I don't cube wort. Mad idea. The benefits are not outweighed by the problems. This thread (and the countless others) are testament to this.

I like to put the yeast in when it's at room temp and not much after. If I could use a brand new cube every time I'd consider it.


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## manticle (1/3/12)

Genuine question: besides the dreaded CB, how many other micro-organisms can survive 100 deg C and how many of them can live in wort?

I say genuine question and I mean it - as stated above I have had infection recur in sanitised, heat pastuerised NC cubes although some of those may have been due to leaky cubes. Have had it happen in previously infected plastic fermenters too though, which while not heat treated, were chemically cleaned, rinsed and sanitised.


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## bradsbrew (1/3/12)

Ross said:


> +1. Just give the cube a clean & sanitise, it'll be fine.
> 
> cheers Ross






the_new_darren said:


> Sim,
> Im not saying you need an autoclave for homebrewing but simply that there are plenty of micro-organisms that can survive 100 C and hence an autoclave runs at 121 C for liquid and 130+ for solids.
> 
> If HB sanitisers were half as effective as "sprouted" then Im sure that hospitals and laboratories would move to a simple wash and sanitise methodology.
> ...


You seem to be hung up on the sanitising part of Ross' comment, I think you missed the point about cleaning which was mentioned before sanitising. In the OP situation would not cleaning be more important than the saniting that follows? And before you get your back up the question mark means I am asking you a question not questioning your info.

Cheers


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## manticle (1/3/12)

bradsbrew said:


> yeah but dont you also ferment in your cubes?
> 
> Due to laziness I have in the past left a cube sit for a week or so after tipping the contents into fermenter. They can get pretty manky and furry inside. I good few rinses then a couple of cleans with 100% sod perc followed by a few more boiling water rinses and the cubes still going strong. I have never had an infection from the cube on the couple of times I have got infections it from yeast issues post cube.
> 
> Cheers



I do ferment in my cube. I'm not sure of the relevance though. I'm saying stuff that's made my beer taste horrible has recurred when I've used the same equipment later, despite a decent cleaning and sanitising regime.

When I ferment in my cube (which I started doing to reduce infection risk solely due to recurring infection) I generally get good tasting beer so if any of the microflora that make my beer taste good want to hang about I don't mind.

Fermenting in a cube is the same deal as fermenting in a fermenter - HDPE container. 

I may have missed something.


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## jlm (1/3/12)

Nick JD said:


> Why don't laboratories make beer?
> 
> Is it because they are not breweries?
> 
> ...


Plus one. Well, except for the cubing thing. If there were a formula for calculating Darren's response time in a thread about NC'ing that Ross posted in, I'd say that was a pretty slow attempted poopfight from TND compared to the expected outcome.

Edit. Cannot spell "to" correctly after "too" many beers.


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## Ross (1/3/12)

The guy's opened his cube & let some airbourne yeast fire up his cube, IMO there is little reason to throw it out when a good clean & sanitise should be all that's required.

Gotta laugh at you TND, if I'd advised throwing it out & buying a new cube, you'd of no doubt gone the opposite opinion & accused me of bullshitting & trying to sell more cubes  Your personal attacks have become more than tedious...

Cheers Ross


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## manticle (1/3/12)

Previous poop fights aside (and I've had my own with TND) and his animosity with certain retailers notwithstanding, he did have some points that were at least worth discussing.


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## mikesnothere (1/3/12)

QldKev said:


> I'd throw the cube too.
> 
> And yes, if I had an infection in a fermentor it would get the toss too; $16 for a Bunnings fermentor makes the decision easy.


This is such a waste, an old fermenter makes an excellent seat with a cushion on top.


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## Nick JD (1/3/12)

Ross said:


> The guy's opened his cube & let some airbourne yeast fire up his cube,



I just read the OP. Opened the cube to make a starter and then closed it again.

Throw out the brewer.


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## sim (1/3/12)

the_new_darren said:


> Sim,
> Im not saying you need an autoclave for homebrewing but simply that there are plenty of micro-organisms that can survive 100 C and hence an autoclave runs at 121 C for liquid and 130+ for solids.



Im not refuiting this Darren, and im well enough read and convinced, im just pointing out that it would be good to not have to throw them out. So in another turn of words, if a clean and sanitise will do it then "it'll be fine". I use glass fermentors, and i dont ever have/want to throw them out.


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## jlm (1/3/12)

manticle said:


> Previous poop fights aside (and I've had my own with TND) and his animosity with certain retailers notwithstanding, he did have some points that were at least worth discussing.



Certainly, however his comparison between microbiologist-y lab work with fermenting a beer at home is like comparing something to another thing that are completely different.


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## sim (1/3/12)

jlm said:


> Certainly, however his comparison between microbiologist-y lab work with fermenting a beer at home is like comparing something to another thing that are completely different.



...doesnt everyone use a laminar flow hood to bottle their beer??


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## manticle (1/3/12)

Yes, well we all make mistakes. I once tried to eat a tank and broke most of my teeth.

Darren has put forth many an argument I think is puerile, negative and based on very little (whether empirical or experiential) over the time I have been on this forum.

However, if I am to remain rational, I cannot judge him on previous arguments but on the ones he puts forward now and at least some of what he is saying is borne out by my own, non-provable, non quantitative experience.

I'm interested in at least some extrapolation or explanation rather than cutting him down due to a not so friendly history.


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## mikesnothere (1/3/12)

manticle said:


> Genuine question: besides the dreaded CB, how many other micro-organisms can survive 100 deg C and how many of them can live in wort?



Not sure of exact numbers but there are a lot (Anthrax is one!) that make endospores (which are the real problem, more so than biofilms). Spore forming bacteria that will thrive in your wort, won't survive 100C, but the their spores will, and they'll survive sanitising, and UV light. Sterilising with sodium hyperchlorite (bleach) (freshly made up) for 5 to 10 minutes will kill them. The big problem is that your fermenter can look and smell clean after multiple cleaning sessions, but it's only once wort is put back in, that the spores will reactivate.

A "quick" test you could do, is to ferment a sugar/nutrient solution. If it goes funky again, you know you've got a problem and need to toss the fermenter/cube, without wasting a brew.


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## Muscovy_333 (1/3/12)

manticle said:


> Genuine question: besides the dreaded CB, how many other micro-organisms can survive 100 deg C and how many of them can live in wort?
> 
> I say genuine question and I mean it - as stated above I have had infection recur in sanitised, heat pastuerised NC cubes although some of those may have been due to leaky cubes. Have had it happen in previously infected plastic fermenters too though, which while not heat treated, were chemically cleaned, rinsed and sanitised.




As far as I am aware only spore formers will survive greater than 100 degrees. 
However, a combination of time and temp will kill most spore formers as well. 

Time, temp and pressure will kill the lot as it lyses or bursts the spore former cell wall and exposes it to the heat.

Canning use a mathematical equation to calculate the correct time/temp combination that is product specific and takes into account things like water activity, product density, pH, salts, solids, conductivity and generally a target organism (botulinum is the gold standard target organism for canning)


As always it is a little more complicated than this, but thats the summary IMHO.
I dont use any sanitisers, just boiling water pre-cube and pre-ferment. 

I store all of my vessels with water and sodium metabisulphite (cold water only). Have not had infection yet...but i generally pitch yeast within a day or two of cubing.

Poor hygeine, dirty seals and the air are your enemy.


EDIT: Forgot to add, microbes definately build resistance to your cleaning regime so it is important to change your method every now and then to wipe out the freaky mutated garage superbugs that you are creating with your sanitising regimes. I have just changed over to sodium perc for a couple of months, then i will go back to sodium meta...


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## mikesnothere (1/3/12)

jlm said:


> Certainly, however his comparison between microbiologist-y lab work with fermenting a beer at home is like comparing something to another thing that are completely different.



I'd disagree. Obviously you are not going to build yourself a lab in you shed to brew, or even to try and emulate most lab practices. But the same basic principles do apply, and if used to guide your thoughts (if not your hand) is only going to be beneficial. Knowledge is Power!


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## manticle (1/3/12)

mikesnothere said:


> Not sure of exact numbers but there are a lot (Anthrax is one!) that make endospores (which are the real problem, more so than biofilms). Spore forming bacteria that will thrive in your wort, won't survive 100C, but the their spores will, and they'll survive sanitising, and UV light. Sterilising with sodium hyperchlorite (bleach) (freshly made up) for 5 to 10 minutes will kill them. The big problem is that your fermenter can look and smell clean after multiple cleaning sessions, but it's only once wort is put back in, that the spores will reactivate.
> 
> A "quick" test you could do, is to ferment a sugar/nutrient solution. If it goes funky again, you know you've got a problem and need to toss the fermenter/cube, without wasting a brew.



Cool. In keeping with the very little I already knew (re spore forming organisms). How likely is the presence of anthrax bacteria in a cube or around a brewery? Or any of the other heat resistant bacteria?

The recurring infection I had certainly didn't give me anthrax or botulism poisoning - just tasted horrible and made me sad and diappointed.

So sodium hyperchlorite kills most/all of them? I remember when I got my recurring infection I stepped up my regime to the one I suggested earlier (includes bleach, then a boiling water rinse, then a sodium met rinse - all to sanitise but the latter two to remove the bleach as it can make band-aid beer). Pretty sure I still got a couple during that time - switching to glass for starters and fermenting directly in the cube knocked most of it on the head. Only infections since have been cubes that haven't sealed properly.


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## manticle (1/3/12)

Nick JD said:


> I just read the OP. Opened the cube to make a starter and then closed it again.



Warning to no-chillers: Don't do stuff that renders the theory and practice of no chill entirely redundant.


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## mikesnothere (1/3/12)

manticle said:


> Cool. In keeping with the very little I already knew (re spore forming organisms). How likely is the presence of anthrax bacteria in a cube or around a brewery? Or any of the other heat resistant bacteria?
> 
> The recurring infection I had certainly didn't give me anthrax or botulism poisoning - just tasted horrible and made me sad and diappointed.



Anthrax? not likely! That was just to scare you. The odds are against an infection being spore forming, but not so significantly as to dismiss the possibility. Again I couldn't give you any numbers, but if you've had a recurring infection (read spore forming) once, the chances of another infection of the same type rise dramatically, as that bacteria is likely a local in your vicinity.


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## the_new_darren (1/3/12)

Ross said:


> The guy's opened his cube & let some airbourne yeast fire up his cube, IMO there is little reason to throw it out when a good clean & sanitise should be all that's required.
> 
> Gotta laugh at you TND, if I'd advised throwing it out & buying a new cube, you'd of no doubt gone the opposite opinion & accused me of bullshitting & trying to sell more cubes  Your personal attacks have become more than tedious...
> 
> Cheers Ross



Its not a personal attach Ross, it because someone of your "stature" and with a big "cult" following and giving at the least, uneducated advice I find quite disturbing.

As for someone buying cubes off you, I doubt there would be too many doing that as Bunnings etc will always sell cheaper. However you do sell brew sanitiser and beer making ingredients so you must admit that you do have a vested interest in someone making another beer because they had to dump one.

As you would be well aware, I am a microbiologist and fully understand the misinformation that you have peddled in this thread.

For simplicity, I will cut and paste from this wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofilm

Formation of a biofilm begins with the attachment of free-floating microorganisms to a surface. These first colonists adhere to the surface initially through weak, reversible adhesion via van der Waals forces. If the colonists are not immediately separated from the surface, they can anchor themselves more permanently using cell adhesion structures such as pili.[6] 

and

Biofilms are usually found on solid substrates submerged in or exposed to an aqueous solution, 

and
Biofilms are ubiquitous. Nearly every species of microorganism, not only bacteria and archaea, have mechanisms by which they can adhere to surfaces and to each other. Biofilms will form on virtually every non-shedding surface in a non-sterile aqueous (or very humid) environment

and

Bacteria living in a biofilm usually have significantly different properties from free-floating bacteria of the same species, as the dense and protected environment of the film allows them to cooperate and interact in various ways. One benefit of this environment is increased resistance to detergents and antibiotics, as the dense extracellular matrix and the outer layer of cells protect the interior of the community. 





Now, I think the last point is very important. Sanitisers will not impregnate and kill contaminating bacteria ESPECIALLY if the detergent has not removed the protective layer.




So my advice is if you have had a cube that has swelled, then you probably have an infecting heat resistent bacteria or heat adapted wild yeast (yes thats possible), then for $15 a cube (1/2 the cost of ingredients) then throw the cube out.




Personally, I would chill and pitch with large numbers of viable brewing yeast within 24hr.

cheers

TND


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## jlm (1/3/12)

mikesnothere said:


> I'd disagree. Obviously you are not going to build yourself a lab in you shed to brew, or even to try and emulate most lab practices. But the same basic principles do apply, and if used to guide your thoughts (if not your hand) is only going to be beneficial. Knowledge is Power!


However TND was trying to equate splashing "insert favoured sanitiser here" in a fermenter at home, where in reality in my opinion all we do is ry to keep our desired yeast strain in the fermenting beer as dominant as possible, with splashing "insert favoured sanitiser here" around a lab (and I have no experience of this, am a simple if dashingly handsome electrician) to do the whatever it is that is done in microbiologist-y situations. Stand to be corrected but when TND is trying to rid the world of feline HIV he requires (not can do with) a much higher standard than the home brewer can get away with. Apples vs custard apples.

Also Anthrax can survive anything. Listen to last years album with Belladonna on vox again.


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## the_new_darren (1/3/12)

Manticle,

Any spore forming organism can be heat resistant, especially if they can get into a nook or cranny where for what ever reason it is a "little" cooler (ie the inner edge of a thread.

tnd


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## Muscovy_333 (1/3/12)

As you would be well aware, I am a microbiologist.


[/quote]


I'll back that!
Although, I'm personally not a fan of wikipedia quotes...

but then again i was too lazy to reference my contribution.


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## manticle (1/3/12)

@TnD

Can most of those also live in wort or their spores survive in fermenting beer? I know some microflora can live in low pH environments and are alcohol, hop and pH resistant. Are all the spores of spore forming organisms able to live in these conditions too (I know there's a difference between the bacteria and the spores)?

Part of the reason for the questions is actually trying to identify what has caused problems at my place - I always assumed it was a wild yeast rather than bacteria. I have drunk full bottles with no ill effects (although I'd never bother trying to ferment it if it came up again - first time I bottled and aged for over a year and the end result was still horrible). I have drunk some wort infected with same tasting foulness with no ill effects except for those which you get when you drink something that doesn't taste good like you want when you spit it out and curse the day for your wasted effort.


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## Ross (1/3/12)

the_new_darren said:


> So my advice is if you have had a cube that has swelled, then you probably have an infecting heat resistent bacteria or heat adapted wild yeast (yes thats possible), then for $15 a cube (1/2 the cost of ingredients) then throw the cube out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This one line shows you didn't read the OP, to which I was replying. He opened up a cubed wort to take some out & resealed it. 2 days later it had a krausen & it was swelling.
Highly unlikely this has anything to do with heat resistant bacteria & hence my opinion still stands, that in this case, a good clean & sanitise should be fine & it's what I would do. You are welcome to your opinion as much as I'm entitled to mine. Your baited, uncalled for comments, that I'm saying this to simply increase my sanitiser sales is just plain stupid & insulting.


Anyway, i should have ignored the bait, so this is my last comment on the subject.

Cheers Ross

Edit: spelling


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## Muscovy_333 (1/3/12)

manticle said:


> Can most of those also live in wort or their spores survive in fermenting beer? I know some microflora can live in low pH environments and are alcohol, hop and pH resistant. Are all the spores of spore forming organisms able to live in these conditions too (I know there's a difference between the bacteria and the spores)?
> 
> Part of the reason for the questions is actually trying to identify what has caused problems at my place - I always assumed it was a wild yeast rather than bacteria. I have drunk full bottles with no ill effects (although I'd never bother trying to ferment it if it came up again - first time I bottled and aged for over a year and the end result was still horrible).




Question was probably for TND, but spores could easily survive fermenting beer. The spore just allows the bacteria to hide away until the right conditions prevail.
They can survive far worse environments than yummy warm sugary solutions of relatively neutral pH.


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## manticle (1/3/12)

Question is meant for whoever can answer it really.

OK. So what micro-organisms, that are heat resistant, can form spores and can live anaerobically could give my wort a taste like fresh mown grass, some kind of weird bread and some kind of just plain odd, not right character, ferment wort out completely, remain cloudy in a bottle for at least 6 months then drop super bright but gush out of an unchilled bottle and stay tasting the same after a year?

My understanding is that no human pathogens can live in beer. CB spores produce toxins that are not technically pathogens. Are there other similar toxins produced by spore forming organisms that can survive in beer and so can we get sick from toxic beer?

If we can, why doesn't it happen more often?


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## alcoadam (1/3/12)

I purchased my first fermenter about 6 years ago and still use this vessel for most primary fermentation. I'm still at a loss as to why I've never had a re-occurring infection that would require throwing out a perfectly good bucket...maybe luck? maybe fermenter quality? maybe cleaning regime? 

Probably just jinxed myself...


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## Yob (1/3/12)

the_new_darren said:


> I am a microbiologist and fully understand the misinformation that you have peddled in this thread.







and not very helpful at the best of times.


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## Muscovy_333 (1/3/12)

manticle said:


> Question is meant for whoever can answer it really.
> 
> OK. So what micro-organisms, that are heat resistant, can form spores and can live anaerobically could give my wort a taste like fresh mown grass, some kind of weird bread and some kind of just plain odd, not right character, ferment wort out completely, remain cloudy in a bottle for at least 6 months then drop super bright but gush out of an unchilled bottle and stay tasting the same after a year?
> 
> ...



Heaps of microbes form toxins, the ones that make you sick within 6 or 12 hours are generally pathogens. The others just kill you slowly and accumulate in your vital organs until they reach a point that is harmful (problem with that statement is that it cannot be quatified, and other things other than microbial by-products do the same thing).

Any infection once it gets started can impact on the environment it lives in. Acetobacter, lactobacillus lower pH for example. As conditions change other microbes may find favourable conditions and 'kick' into action if they have viable cell numbers or are viralent enough.

Some microbes produce bacteriocins that act against other bacteria. Most yeast dont produce these bacteriocins (A couple might)

I'm pulling this from the top of my head, but can see that you are generally curious so will dig out a reliable text i have somewhere and see what i can dig up to help appease your wonderful curiosity!


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## Muscovy_333 (1/3/12)

@Manticle
Just adapted this table for your perusal...not sure if it will help your cause?? 

View attachment Beer_Bacterial_taints.pdf


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## the_new_darren (1/3/12)

The chances of getting sick from beer is extremely low, however, the recent use of sealed cubes does increase the risk IMHO.

Manticle, my analogy would be that in a brew there are 100 billion yeast cells and like humans each and every one has a slightly different genetic make-up.

Some like the heat, some dont like the heat. It goes the same for bacteria within their own niece.

In virology it called a "quasispecies" and is well described easily because their genomes are easily sequenced (relatively small).

Bacteria are cunning little buggers and will survive where they can. If for example there was a "bit of crud" in the corner of fermentor that was not sanitised properly, the bacteria in that spot will have survived by adaption to the heat (ie only those individuals who were more heat tolerant will be in greater numbers the next time that extreme heat was applied) . Those same bacteria/yeast will not be "like" the majority of the other yeast/bacteria in a mixed culture so they will most probably produce some unwanted by-products of fermentation (off flavours or acid).

These individual yeast/bacteria are originally an extremely small part of the general population and are generally less able to reproduce and thrive and hence why they dont appear in every brew (ie they are out competed). Its only when the conditions suit their particular genetic make-up that they are able to gather a hold.

This is why changing your sanitising regime is important because if you use the same sanitiser over and over again, the smart little buggers "adapt" and gain resistance as observed with antibiotic resistance. Biofilms in the HB setting will play an important role in resistance. It is also well known that poor cleaning (ie specks of crud) aids in heat resistance (ie the heat is not transferred well into the centre of a dirty spot)

So, heat resistent "bugs" are everywhere, they exist in each discrete population. These "bugs" are generally not well adapted to "normal" conditions (ie they grow poorly). Its not until the conditions are changed or they are in larger than normal numbers that they rear their ugly heads.

cheers

tnd


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## the_new_darren (1/3/12)

Ross said:


> This one line shows you didn't read the OP, to which I was replying. He opened up a cubed wort to take some out & resealed it. 2 days later it had a krausen & it was swelling.
> Highly unlikely this has anything to do with heat resistant bacteria & hence my opinion still stands, that in this case, a good clean & sanitise should be fine & it's what I would do. You are welcome to your opinion as much as I'm entitled to mine. Your baited, uncalled for comments, that I'm saying this to simply increase my sanitiser sales is just plain stupid & insulting.
> 
> 
> ...



Ross, All due respect I did read the OP. Two days krausen from opening a cube seems unlikely. More likely it was fermenting already abeit, slowly prior to opening.

I have seen numerous posts of the "cubes" fermenting spontaneously in the last year. Notably, most OP do not report opening!!!!!!!!!!

Must be something else, yeah?

cheers

Darren


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## Rowy (1/3/12)

the_new_darren said:


> The chances of getting sick from beer is extremely low................



Bloody hell over the years I must have pretended to get sick a lot then


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## Muscovy_333 (1/3/12)

Muscovy said:


> @Manticle
> Just adapted this table for your perusal...not sure if it will help your cause??




Can anyone open the attachment?


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## the_new_darren (1/3/12)

Yep,

Quite informative.

thanks

tnd


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## manticle (2/3/12)

the_new_darren said:


> Ross, All due respect I did read the OP. Two days krausen from opening a cube seems unlikely. More likely it was fermenting already abeit, slowly prior to opening.
> 
> I have seen numerous posts of the "cubes" fermenting spontaneously in the last year. Notably, most OP do not report opening!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...



2 days opening a cube doesn't seem that unlikely to me. Infected cubes for me have generally been traced back to a leak -either thread tap (once) or not properly sealed lid. Have had other infections that related to starters and previously infected fermenters.

Thanks for the other info muscovy and TnD. Will digest it some more later on.


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## Bongchitis (2/3/12)

the_new_darren said:


> The chances of getting sick from beer is extremely low, however, the recent use of sealed cubes does increase the risk IMHO.
> 
> Manticle, my analogy would be that in a brew there are 100 billion yeast cells and like humans each and every one has a slightly different genetic make-up.
> 
> ...




I am not a fan of yours for various reasons but that was one of your better posts by a long way. Explained well in laymans terms and no bitching. A single butterfly doesn't mean its spring though.


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## Dazza88 (2/3/12)

tnd. recommended sanitisation regime with variety of cleaning substances please?


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## HoppingMad (2/3/12)

1. Toss the wort
2. Clean the cube
3. Sanitise the cube.
4. Put the episode down to a 'learning experience'

Ignore the haters and continue to brew.  

Viva la no chill. :super: 

Hopper.


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## the_new_darren (2/3/12)

DazDog said:


> tnd. recommended sanitisation regime with variety of cleaning substances please?




Hot sodium percarbonate for cleaning and change your sanitiser every couple of months.

cheers

tnd


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## Nick JD (2/3/12)

the_new_darren said:


> ... change your sanitiser every couple of months.



You reckon we're creating brewing superbugs by using only one sanitiser? 

Starsan nails golden staph...


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## Wimmig (2/3/12)

Nick JD said:


> You reckon we're creating brewing superbugs by using only one sanitiser?
> 
> Starsan nails golden staph...



Starsan power! Takes care of bugs, skin, countertops.


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## NickB (2/3/12)

I just vary my Starsan routine every 10 brews or so, and run a Starsan rinse through my equipment at higher than 'no rinse' ratio (much like a proper acid wash). Always after a big dose of PBW, and followed by a dose of SaniClean, a fresh water rinse, and then a 'no rinse' dose of Starsan. This is for all dispense, fermenting and brewing equipment. 

Bacteria may survive the same product at the same ratios, but to my mind, a 'strong' dose at regular intervals will do the same as changing sanitisers. 

If not, I'm happy to grab some Iodophor and use that brown muck every few brews 

Cheers!


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## Paul H (2/3/12)

the_new_darren said:


> That has to have been the most irresponsible load of frogshit I have ever seen come from your key board.
> 
> By your advice all laboratories in the world would simply employ "a quick clean and sanitise" rather than discarding or autoclaving contaminated equipment.
> 
> ...



Me thinks TND has a man crush on Ross (not that there's anything wrong with that) & if TND was a dog he'd be all over Ross's leg in a flash...

Cheers

Paul


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## the_new_darren (2/3/12)

I guarantee it


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## ForkBoy (2/3/12)

So what cleaners would be most effective on the sort of biofilm you might see in a hb environment? Or is it that once it reaches the second phase it's basically game over?

I've left a fermentor lid in a bucket of iodophor for waaaay too long and pulled it out to find a nice covering of slime. Gave it an almightily clean and thought nothing more of it. I have been having the odd infection lately so I'm swapping everything out, but I wonder if you let you get your equipment to that state is there no recovering?

I also leave sod perc solution in my cubes when not in use, I had doubted that environment would allow any bugs let alone biofilm. Am I kidding myself? (never had an expanding cube btw)


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## freezkat (2/3/12)

NickB said:


> I just vary my Starsan routine every 10 brews or so, and run a Starsan rinse through my equipment at higher than 'no rinse' ratio (much like a proper acid wash). Always after a big dose of PBW, and followed by a dose of SaniClean, a fresh water rinse, and then a 'no rinse' dose of Starsan. This is for all dispense, fermenting and brewing equipment.
> 
> Bacteria may survive the same product at the same ratios, but to my mind, a 'strong' dose at regular intervals will do the same as changing sanitisers.
> 
> ...


I store starsan in my cubes. 2 week soak or so even takes out root beer flavor. Don't tell me it will break down the plastic because this exact container ships muratic acid. The one I did see get eaten was storing peanut oil.

If I find something nasty I will use 1 TBSP Bleach per 1 Gallon of the hottest water you have on tap. fill it half way, use a brush. Or chicken grit, washed sand if you can't get a brush through. Put the lid on and shake that around and upside down. Open it up, fill it to the top. Cap it and leave it for a couple days. Dump, then do a sodium perc/water fill cap and leave a week or so. I use sodium bicarbonate as an alkaline "stink remover". 

Is sodium percarbonate the same chemical I buy in bulk to fix the ph in my pool?


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## stux (2/3/12)

freezkat said:


> I store starsan in my cubes. 2 week soak or so even takes out root beer flavor. Don't tell me it will break down the plastic because this exact container ships muratic acid. The one I did see get eaten was storing peanut oil.
> 
> If I find something nasty I will use 1 TBSP Bleach per 1 Gallon of the hottest water you have on tap. fill it half way, use a brush. Or chicken grit, washed sand if you can't get a brush through. Put the lid on and shake that around and upside down. Open it up, fill it to the top. Cap it and leave it for a couple days. Dump, then do a sodium perc/water fill cap and leave a week or so. I use sodium bicarbonate as an alkaline "stink remover".
> 
> Is sodium percarbonate the same chemical I buy in bulk to fix the ph in my pool?



I think that is sodium bicarbonate, ie "bicarb" or baking soda, and sodium carbonate, ie "soda ash"


"Sodium percarbonate is a chemical, an adduct of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide (a perhydrate), with formula 2Na2CO3 3H2O2. It is a colorless, crystalline, hygroscopic and water-soluble solid.[1] It is used in some eco-friendly cleaning products and as a laboratory source of anhydrous hydrogen peroxide"

As a chemist friend explained to me, dry hydrogen peroxide


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## Nick JD (3/3/12)

Stux said:


> As a chemist friend explained to me, dry hydrogen peroxide



You can use it to oxygenate your wort before adding your yeast.

____________________________________________

Don't believe everything you read on the Internet - Abraham Lincoln


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## sim (3/3/12)

Nick JD said:


> You can use it to oxygenate your wort before adding your yeast.



seriously??


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## Nick JD (3/3/12)

sim said:


> seriously??



No. See the quote below.


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## The Village Idiot (3/3/12)

Nick JD said:


> You can use it to oxygenate your wort before adding your yeast.
> 
> ____________________________________________
> 
> Don't believe everything you read on the Internet - Abraham Lincoln




Hook line and sinker.... lmao


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## kario (3/3/12)

the_new_darren said:


> Sim,
> Im not saying you need an autoclave for homebrewing but simply that there are plenty of micro-organisms that can survive 100 C and hence an autoclave runs at 121 C for liquid and 130+ for solids.
> 
> If HB sanitisers were half as effective as "sprouted" then Im sure that hospitals and laboratories would move to a simple wash and sanitise methodology.
> ...



From John Palmer's howtobrew.com:
**SNIP**
Iodophor:
Iodophor is a solution of iodine complexed with a polymer carrier that is very convenient to use. One tablespoon in 5 gallons of water (15ml in 19 l) is all that is needed to sanitize equipment with a two minute soak time. This produces a concentration of 12.5 ppm of titratable iodine. Soaking equipment longer, for 10 minutes, at the same concentration will disinfect surfaces to hospital standards.
**SNIP**


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## sim (4/3/12)

Nick JD said:


> No. See the quote below.



wow, you got me bruce!


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