# Cling Wrap Lid Sanitary? No-chill In Fermenter?



## clintmo (19/7/10)

Two quick questions before my brew tomz,

1. Is cling wrap sanitary and okay to use without the use of a sanitiser as a fermenter lid?

and in relation to this,

2. Is it okay to no-chill in the fermenter as i will pitch the yeast as soon as it gets down to temp? And if so will a cling wrap lid be okay with boiling wort underneath it?

Cheers Clint


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## haysie (19/7/10)

just dont use any of that pallet wrapping cling wrap.. its bad :lol:

tongue out of cheek

1/ Cling wrap is fine mate.
2/ No chill in the fermenter I wouldnt recommend, you really want minimal or none headspace, that not to say chilling a fermenter wont work but there maybe a lot of headspace with a lot of stuff n things you dont want in your beer.
Is your fermenter up to/conditioned too handle boiling temps?
Clingwrap with boiling wort underneath, no


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## ~MikE (19/7/10)

um, i wouldn't clingwrap the vessel you're no-chilling in, and, you typically want to aerate the wort before pitching, hence, no-chill in cube, then pour into fermenter.


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## Nick JD (19/7/10)

I kettle no-chill all the time.


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## bum (19/7/10)

Which is completely different. Why do you make these posts?


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## haysie (19/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> I kettle no-chill all the time.



Thats not what the thread is about, re-read it.


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## manticle (19/7/10)

clintmo said:


> 2. Is it okay to no-chill in the fermenter as i will pitch the yeast as soon as it gets down to temp? And if so will a cling wrap lid be okay with boiling wort underneath it?
> 
> Cheers Clint




The reason no chill works is because it's in an airtight container while it chills. Haysie's already pointed out about the headspace.

Cling wrap will not be airtight which will defeat the purpose. You might get away with it - you might get away with it many times but it is different from the principles of no-chill.


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## beerbog (19/7/10)

1. Yes

2. No

:beerbang:


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## Bribie G (19/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> I kettle no-chill all the time.



In Nick's defence, his reply was somewhat minimalist and could maybe have been expanded to:

"I kettle chill because after having had the crap boiled out of it for at least an hour this piece of equipment and the wort it contains is guaranteed to be sanitised, and if sealed up well should yield sterile wort for the morning, when it can be poured into the fermenter with much splashing to aerate". 

Nevertheless it begs a number of questions such as - do you want to have your wort in contact with spent hops overnight? (no problems if you used a hop sock) and - is it a kettle with no nooks and crannies (for example the first infection I got with AG was with no chilling in my urn and I got an infection, then later found some hop material in the tap - not guaranteed to be held at sanitizing temps during boiling as part of the tap is exterior to the main boiling chamber). The sight tube could be a trap as well - I zap mine with peroxide regularly.


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## Nick JD (19/7/10)

bum said:


> Why do you make these posts?



The same might be asked about you, bum...

If one was trying to avoid no chilling in a sealed vessel, then I would suggest no-chilling in the kettle and transfering into the fermenter (leaving the break material*s* behind) and aerating the wort on transfer when it's reached pitching temperature.

EDIT: cheers, Bribie - that's what I should have said - I forgot about Cunstable Bum and his Elite Critique Division.


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## bum (19/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> The same might be asked about you, bum...


 

I don't see how. I'm not in the habit of recommending that novice brewers (such as myself) follow advice that goes against most tested and proven brewing practice without explaining how my own experience has shown that it can work if I follow a particular methods I've developed over years of experience. 

Simply telling a noob (sorry, OP, not necessarily meaning you but these things do stay here for others to read in the future) that they should no-chill in their kettle is inviting nothing but bad beer and you bloody well know it. Stop it.


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## Nick JD (19/7/10)

bum said:


> Simply telling a noob (sorry, OP, not necessarily meaning you but these things do stay here for others to read in the future) that they should no-chill in their kettle is inviting nothing but bad beer and you bloody well know it. Stop it.



People said the same things about no-chilling. 

Please list for me the problems I should be having with kettle chilling and how they differ from "traditional" no-chilling ... and I'll then ask you if you've kettle chilled, and if not - then how did you become and expert at something you've never tried?

Offer some advice that's not an attack of other's advice. Go on. You might find you like it. I'm trying really hard to see if I can find any instances of you being positive on AHB. Why so sad and angry?


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## bum (19/7/10)

I'm not telling you what problems you have with kettle chilling. I'm not going to tell you your beers are all infected. I'm talking about other people. Other people who might not have anything but our words on a screen to base their decisions on. You can't just say it is okay to no-chill in a kettle without any qualifiers. Someone will stuff their beer because of it. Not everyone. Someone. 

Please remember that I am not telling you not to do it. Do what you bloody well like. But if you're going to tell others to do it then make sure they're properly informed. Bribie mentions the only concerns I can think of with the method. And I'm sure there are much smarter brewers than I who can think of more but I'm sure they'll stay silent like they do every other time you tell people to throw caution to the wind because it is just too bloody hard.


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## Nick JD (19/7/10)

bum said:


> But if you're going to tell others to do it then make sure they're properly informed.



26,000 views of a thread with kettle chilling in it ... I'm not sure how much more "properly informed" I can make people.

No one is holding a gun to anyone's head - it's up to the big boys and girls here at AHB to develop their own ideas on what's possible and what's not. Yes, I am always toting the more-uncoventional methods of getting things done, but I wouldn't tell anyone if they didn't work. I've done over a hundred kettle chills without incident, so I'm saying it works - deal with it.

Anyway, bye Bum - you on my shitlist. You no fun, all whingy man.



bum said:


> You have chosen to ignore all posts from: bum.
> 
> View this post
> Un-ignore bum


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## clintmo (19/7/10)

thanks for the responses haha, ill no chill in the cube, then transfer whilst aerating, then cling wrap lid (no need to sanatise)


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## barneyb (19/7/10)

bum said:


> Please remember that I am not telling you not to do it. Do what you bloody well like. But if you're going to tell others to do it then make sure they're properly informed. Bribie mentions the only concerns I can think of with the method. And I'm sure there are much smarter brewers than I who can think of more but I'm sure they'll stay silent like they do every other time you tell people to throw caution to the wind because it is just too bloody hard.


I use a hop sock so no hops are left over, and my kettle is just a 20L stock pot so no places for anything to hide. I haven't had any troubles so far but if there are any other smarter brewers with concerns with this method I'd like to hear it. They can message me if they don't want to post it in this thread!


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## Phoney (19/7/10)

barneyb said:


> I use a hop sock so no hops are left over, and my kettle is just a 20L stock pot so no places for anything to hide. I haven't had any troubles so far but if there are any other smarter brewers with concerns with this method I'd like to hear it. They can message me if they don't want to post it in this thread!



How do you separate your wort from your hot break?


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## Nick JD (19/7/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> How do you separate your wort from your hot break?



The hot and cold break are left behind in the same manner as decanting a bottle of beer off the yeast sediment. 

Any effects from cooling on the hot break material are negligible considering it's been boiling for the previous 90 minutes on it.


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## Steve (19/7/10)

I was going to say that Nick was a twat for derailing the thread but I changed my mind by being slightly on topic for the sake of the OPs question. I no chill in my fermenters with no problems what so ever. As a side note, you also dont need to aerate your wort if using dried yeast, just leave to cool over night, take the lid off in the morning, sprinkle your yeast and seal. I cant answer your question about cling wrap as I dont use it as a lid but I do use it over the top of the airlock with a lacky band with no troubles.
Cheers
Steve


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## rude (19/7/10)

Just a question here lads & girls when you tip youre cube into youre fermenter what do you leave behind & what for?

I throw my hops in my kettle & drain it all into the cube

I then pour the lot onto my yeast starter

I then rack to get it off all the crud after 2 to 3 days then leave for 12 days or so ales here atm 

Currently doing a big brown big for me 5.8% pitched on half a yeast cake & Im currently changing fermenter lids like you wouldnt believe
I'll have to get a blow off tube I spose

As for the ops post yes its just as easy to cube it than leave it in the kettle then if sanitised its safe for however long

I dont see any advantages in cling wraping just a bigger mess if the krausen goes ballistic but definately not to use it when wort is hot
Tell me you dont use it on youre food when you microwave its bad for you.


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## dent (19/7/10)

I have done about 130 brews chilling in the fermenter overnight - summertime outside with a pedestal fan pointed at it. I mostly do lagers. My technique was to simply put a bottle cap over the airlock bung to allow air but not bugs to get in as it cooled, and, inevitably, sucked air in. Infections just didn't happen. And, yes, success in state level comps did down the track with the same technique.

I have since moved to chilling, but there was nothing wrong with the old technique - I changed over to get more _control _over the hop flavour/aroma and cold break. But as far as the beer goes, this was only an incremental improvement. 

I mainly post to provide the experience I have had. I think the problem is that anyone can succeed with a variety of techniques so it is easy to say "My way is the best way!!", but really they all work to one degree or another. 

At the time the no-chilling made it very easy to make that many more brews and gain experience than I might have had otherwise.


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## Thirsty Boy (20/7/10)

Again, this is about caution, care and playing the odds. percentage brewing if you like.

Can no-chilling in your fermenter work?? Sure it can. But there are potential issues with it. no need to describe them, that's ben done dozens and dozens of times.

Can no-chilling in you kettle work? Sure it can. But there are potential issue with it. Once again, detailed dozens of times in past threads for those who care to look.

Will those issues raise their heads? If they do will they spoil you beer or just make it a little less good than it might have been? Or are they just the fevered imaginings of people bent on stifling diversity in brewing? Maybe... Possibly.... Probably.... Probably not. 

All those anwers are correct to some degree. People obviously brew using these methods and make them work to their satisfaction. But that doesn't remove the potential for the issues to occur.

With regard to No-Chill though.... There is no need to find out. Someone did all the thinking for you, worked out all the possible pitfalls and disadvantages - and came up with a technique that avoids them all. And that technique has become the "standard" no-chill method as described in the wickki.

No-Chill in the fermenter ---- Probably fine
No-Chill in the kettle --------- Probably OK
No-Chill by the "Standard" method --- you know it will be OK

For the minuscule amount of extra effort required to turn "Probable" into "Definite" I know which path I'm taking and which path I'll always recommend to others. 

Oh, btw.... I always sanitize the cling wrap I put on my fermenter. It's probably alright without doing it - but with a 2 second squirt of sanitiser I get to remove the word probably from the equation entirely. Playing the percentages.

Percentage brewing.... That's how you will make great beer. Take just a little time and effort to dot i's and cross t's on the little stuff, then you can concentrate on the big stuff without worrying where your shortcuts might bring you undone.

Thirsty


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## MeLoveBeer (20/7/10)

Kudos Thirsty... awesome post


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## hazard (20/7/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Again, this is about caution, care and playing the odds. percentage brewing if you like.
> 
> Can no-chilling in your fermenter work?? Sure it can. But there are potential issues with it. no need to describe them, that's ben done dozens and dozens of times.
> 
> ...


This all makes sense, but there is also a convenience factor. I brew in the kitchen, I've got an immersion chiller and usually use it,, but sometimes my wife needs to use the kitchen and doesn't want to be tripping over hoses and other brewing equipment - so I have kettle chilled a few times, and with no problems. As soon as the boil is finished, whack the lid on the kettle (42 litre stockpot) and lots of alu foil around the lid to keep anything out. Wort will stay hot for a LONG time, ensuring that lid gets sanitised. That said, I try to avoid kettle chill if there any late hop additions.


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## Fents (20/7/10)

i also go the other way and say i have been no chilling in my fermenters and it works fine for me - but i pitch my yeast THE NEXT day, never leave it sitting round like i would in a cube.

also a recent convert to cling wrap and find its heaps easier.


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## QldKev (20/7/10)

clintmo said:


> thanks for the responses haha, ill no chill in the cube, then transfer whilst aerating, then cling wrap lid (no need to sanatise)




Thats exactly what I do, obviously when transferring it is into a sanitised fermentor.


QldKev


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## AndrewQLD (20/7/10)

Cleaned up off topic posts, can you keep the personal attacks between yourselves and in private please.

AndrewQld


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## dent (20/7/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> No-Chill by the "Standard" method --- you know it will be OK



I feel it necessary to point out that sanitisation for your fermenter when chilling has to be a lot more comprehensive than it does when you're moving near boiling wort in there. When it is hot you know even in any little scratches or whatever that whatever was in there is pretty much dead.

Since I started chilling I actually use now a plate of steel with a hole cut in it the size of my fermenter opening - I put this over the kettle for ten minutes of the boil with the fermenter on there upside down after cleaning, with the tap open, and let the steam get the thing really hot. My little IR thermometer says it gets to 92 degrees or so at the top after a while of this. I run it through with iodophor or whatever afterwards as well for good measure.


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## t2000kw (20/7/10)

My main concern would be if your fermenter had a spigot on it. They are notorious for being the source of hard to trace infections. Sanitizing the fermenter doesn't really sanitize the spigot. Taking the spigot apart can help, but sometimes it causes leaks (I tried it and it did for me). I now use a fermenter (plastic) with no spigot, and a separate bottling bucket. By the time the beer goes through the spigotit has enough alcohol in it that it is naturally bacteriostatic or antibacterial (depending on the microbes). I still sanitize it, of course. 

The plastic should be fine, as others have said. Technically, it may harbor some microbes, but I'll bet in the manufacturing process that it's close to sterile since it's made for food preparation. I would use an elastic band around the top to hold it in place.

The other concern some had (and I do also) is whether you want the hops in contact with the wort during the entire cool-down period. If you use pellet hops, they will be in contact with the wort. If you use whole or plug hops, you can screen them out or use a fruit bag used in winemaking (it has lots of volume compared to a hop sock to allow better utilization) to contain them then remove them. 

From what I've read here, many brewers who use the no chill method brew with the expectation that the hops will be in the wort during cool down. 

Let us know how well it goes, please?

Donald



clintmo said:


> Two quick questions before my brew tomz,
> 
> 1. Is cling wrap sanitary and okay to use without the use of a sanitiser as a fermenter lid?
> 
> ...


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## hazard (20/7/10)

Fents said:


> i also go the other way and say i have been no chilling in my fermenters and it works fine for me - but i pitch my yeast THE NEXT day, never leave it sitting round like i would in a cube.
> 
> also a recent convert to cling wrap and find its heaps easier.



So do you transfer boiling wort into your fermenter? How do you transfer - do you get burnt lips from sucking a siphon tube?? Or do you have a tap on your kettle?

How does the fermenter withstand the heat? Particularly the tap, I've heard that they can pop out when the fermenter gets soft.


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## leiothrix (20/7/10)

Fents said:


> i also go the other way and say i have been no chilling in my fermenters and it works fine for me - but i pitch my yeast THE NEXT day, never leave it sitting round like i would in a cube.



I do the same thing often enough. The only two caveats that I've found with this are:
1. The airlock needs to be refilled a couple of times. It initially all gets blown out by the steam, then gets sucked back in as it cools
2. It can slightly wreck the taps, as in make them slowly leak. 

As long as I know the yeast is going in as soon as the wort is cool, it's all good. And it saves having to clean up a cube.

Rob.


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## manticle (20/7/10)

hazard said:


> How does the fermenter withstand the heat? Particularly the tap, I've heard that they can pop out when the fermenter gets soft.



I put boiling water in my fermenter all the time (I don't no chill in it) and it withstands the heat no worries. Somethimes the thread softens up a little but is fine again when it cools.


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## hoohaaman (21/7/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Again, this is about caution, care and playing the odds. percentage brewing if you like.
> 
> Can no-chilling in your fermenter work?? Sure it can. But there are potential issues with it. no need to describe them, that's ben done dozens and dozens of times.
> 
> ...




Fantastic post,also disarms two brewers doing one thing, three thousand different ways.Aka squabbling.


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## Thirsty Boy (21/7/10)

dent said:


> I feel it necessary to point out that sanitisation for your fermenter when chilling has to be a lot more comprehensive than it does when you're moving near boiling wort in there. When it is hot you know even in any little scratches or whatever that whatever was in there is pretty much dead.
> 
> Since I started chilling I actually use now a plate of steel with a hole cut in it the size of my fermenter opening - I put this over the kettle for ten minutes of the boil with the fermenter on there upside down after cleaning, with the tap open, and let the steam get the thing really hot. My little IR thermometer says it gets to 92 degrees or so at the top after a while of this. I run it through with iodophor or whatever afterwards as well for good measure.



Fair point I guess... But for me it's still an indication of a shortcut that "might" come back to bite you if you decide to rely on it. I have never, ever and never will, put wort into any container - cube, fermenter or other, that had not been sanitized to the absolute best of my ability. If I wasn't 100% sure the fermenter was able to be properly sanitized for use with cooled wort....then it wouldn't see a brew in my brewery. Anything heat may or may not do is considered a bonus

You seem on board with that level of care anyway... Your sanitation routine makes mine look a little slack.


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## Fents (21/7/10)

hazard said:


> So do you transfer boiling wort into your fermenter? How do you transfer - do you get burnt lips from sucking a siphon tube?? Or do you have a tap on your kettle?
> 
> How does the fermenter withstand the heat? Particularly the tap, I've heard that they can pop out when the fermenter gets soft.



transfer with a tap on my kettle, putting your lips anywhere near 100c wort is just silly.


fermenter holds up fine, i would go as far to say that they feel less flimsy when picked up than a hot cube full of wort. taps never popped off on me, only tap problem i have is when i leave it open!


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## Fents (21/7/10)

leiothrix said:


> I do the same thing often enough. The only two caveats that I've found with this are:
> 1. The airlock needs to be refilled a couple of times. It initially all gets blown out by the steam, then gets sucked back in as it cools
> 2. It can slightly wreck the taps, as in make them slowly leak.
> 
> ...



1. instead of using an airlock grab a sanitised shot glass, turn it upside down and just place it over the grommet.
2. but a new tap, mine never leak no chill or chill.


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## earle (21/7/10)

On the topic of leaking taps. I take mine apart after every brew and found that they started to get slow leaks. Got some paraliq lubricating grease from one of the sonsors, a tiny smear of this and no more leaks.


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## kevin_smevin (21/7/10)

Steve said:


> I was going to say that Nick was a twat for derailing the thread but I changed my mind by being slightly on topic for the sake of the OPs question. I no chill in my fermenters with no problems what so ever. As a side note, you also dont need to aerate your wort if using dried yeast, just leave to cool over night, take the lid off in the morning, sprinkle your yeast and seal. I cant answer your question about cling wrap as I dont use it as a lid but I do use it over the top of the airlock with a lacky band with no troubles.
> Cheers
> Steve



Why dont you need to aerate wort if using dry yeast? Surely the dried yeast still need oxygen to synthesise cell walls etc needed for budding and growth?


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## leiothrix (21/7/10)

Fents said:


> 1. instead of using an airlock grab a sanitised shot glass, turn it upside down and just place it over the grommet.
> 2. but a new tap, mine never leak no chill or chill.



The shot glass is a good idea, I might try that.

For #2, I replace the taps every so often (say every few months). I don't pull them apart for cleaning either. I think the heat just distorts them a bit. Or maybe I just grabbed a bad batch.

Rob.


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