# IPA final gravity 1.001?



## Miran (18/9/20)

Two weeks in frementer. Morgan IPA. Air lock still active. Used washed yeast (mangroove jacks 41) from previous brew. I guess two much yeast Air lock still bubbling. 
Initial gravity 1.044 and gravity now stay at 1.001. Going to bottle it tomorrow. Checked the taste it is ok but some how lean but not sure why gravity is such a low?
Single hopped (galaxy) three time, 30 minute boiling. two weeks in frementer and one week in frementer.


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## kadmium (18/9/20)

Miran said:


> Two weeks in frementer. Morgan IPA. Air lock still active. Used washed yeast (mangroove jacks 41) from previous brew. I guess two much yeast Air lock still bubbling.
> Initial gravity 1.044 and gravity now stay at 1.001. Going to bottle it tomorrow. Checked the taste it is ok but some how lean but not sure why gravity is such a low?
> Single hopped (galaxy) three time, 30 minute boiling. two weeks in frementer and one week in frementer.


You say washed yeast? Is it possible you picked up an infection? It's unusual to get it so dry using standard yeast, even pitching straight onto a yeast cake. 

Did you add much sugar / dextrose? Or was it all extract?

You say 2 weeks fermenter and one week fermenter. Not sure what that means? Did you transfer to a new fermenter? You could have picked up an infection which has driven the gravity so low.


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## shacked (19/9/20)

The Belgian ale yeast from MJ is a bit of a beast so your reading might be correct. Here are my thoughts:

Check the accuracy of your hydrometer. What does it read in plain water for example (3 or 4 points off and you'd be at the 90% attenuation level which is not too crazy for the yeast strain)
What is the temp of your sample?
Three weeks isn't a lot of time for an infection to take hold (although not impossible) - I think the transfers and the yeast reuse may be worth considering. If there is no noticeable off flavor then I'd bottle and keep an eye on it.


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## kadmium (19/9/20)

shacked said:


> The Belgian ale yeast from MJ is a bit of a beast so your reading might be correct. Here are my thoughts:
> 
> Check the accuracy of your hydrometer. What does it read in plain water for example (3 or 4 points off and you'd be at the 90% attenuation level which is not too crazy for the yeast strain)
> What is the temp of your sample?
> Three weeks isn't a lot of time for an infection to take hold (although not impossible) - I think the transfers and the yeast reuse may be worth considering. If there is no noticeable off flavor then I'd bottle and keep an eye on it.


Yeah you're right. The most likely infection to cause low FG is pediococcus but that gives a solvent off taste usually. 

Sometimes extracts do go low in FG which is why they sometimes substitute DME in for LME. 

Yeast could have gone to 90% but if the hydrometer is accurate, then it could just be the extract? Not sure


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## shacked (20/9/20)

kadmium said:


> Yeah you're right. The most likely infection to cause low FG is pediococcus but that gives a solvent off taste usually.



I'd suggest that there are all kinda of yeasts and bacteria that could cause an infection and over attenuation - pediococcus, sure but it's only one of many. Could also be a wild saccharomyces (_probably more likely given the timeframe_) or a brett strain, alcohol tolerant lacto or even something more exotic: Nonconventional Yeasts and Bacteria 

Extract is usually mashed at a relatively high temp to get max efficiency / yield. This _typically _results in beers that under attenuate due to more complex sugars in the extract.

If I had to guess, it's probably the hydrometer / sample temp. Adjustment calculator for sample temp here: Hydrometer Temperature Adjustment Calculator - Brewer's Friend


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## butisitart (20/9/20)

Miran said:


> Two weeks in frementer. Morgan IPA. Air lock still active. Used washed yeast (mangroove jacks 41) from previous brew. I guess two much yeast Air lock still bubbling.
> Initial gravity 1.044 and gravity now stay at 1.001. Going to bottle it tomorrow. Checked the taste it is ok but some how lean but not sure why gravity is such a low?
> Single hopped (galaxy) three time, 30 minute boiling. two weeks in frementer and one week in frementer.


happy to get shouted down here, but my (unscientific) observations are;
airlock @ 2 weeks bubbling does not equal too much pitched yeast.
if you pitched too much yeast, it would be just more crazy frenetic in the early ferment period, but the activity period of time should be still about normal.
so it should go crazy days 2-3 then settle down as normal


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## Miran (20/9/20)

kadmium said:


> You say washed yeast? Is it possible you picked up an infection? It's unusual to get it so dry using standard yeast, even pitching straight onto a yeast cake.
> 
> Did you add much sugar / dextrose? Or was it all extract?
> 
> You say 2 weeks fermenter and one week fermenter. Not sure what that means? Did you transfer to a new fermenter? You could have picked up an infection which has driven the gravity so low.


My apology! It was two weeks in one frementer. Dry hopped in second week with all precautions.
Added 100 grams dextrose and 500 grams DME to extract (900 grams) during boil. Total brew volume was 9 liters.
There was not any off flavour taste after two weeks. Seems over attenuation and I am trying to figure it out?!
Temperature was around 24 to 28 degree C.Hydrometer (kegland one) checked and is ok.
Still I think it is because of too much yeast. I used MGJ yeast 41 which was washed off from previous brew. Added some sugar to it after sperating sediments and kept it in fridge for a week. left it outside five to six hours before pitching. checked the smell before using it. It was damn nice and fruity.
I already bottled it.
What do you think has been wrong? Should I stop using washed yeast? What else can cause such a high over attenuation? How can I stop it?


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## Miran (20/9/20)

shacked said:


> I'd suggest that there are all kinda of yeasts and bacteria that could cause an infection and over attenuation - pediococcus, sure but it's only one of many. Could also be a wild saccharomyces (_probably more likely given the timeframe_) or a brett strain, alcohol tolerant lacto or even something more exotic: Nonconventional Yeasts and Bacteria
> 
> Extract is usually mashed at a relatively high temp to get max efficiency / yield. This _typically _results in beers that under attenuate due to more complex sugars in the extract.
> 
> If I had to guess, it's probably the hydrometer / sample temp. Adjustment calculator for sample temp here: Hydrometer Temperature Adjustment Calculator - Brewer's Friend


Is there any way to check the healthiness of yeast other than its smell? Is it possible for washed yeast to smell ok but still infected?


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## butisitart (20/9/20)

Miran said:


> Is there any way to check the healthiness of yeast other than its smell? Is it possible for washed yeast to smell ok but still infected?


depends on what you mean by _infected._
for mine_, _any change will be an_ infection_, so you've got harmless infection (mutates but not in a bad way), or bad infection (smells off, bad mutation). so even on first pitch, you've possibly got some infection / mutation going on. hence the 'no more than 5 recycles' yardstick.
moreso with my liquid yeasts, but when they start to smell 'generic', that is, missing the complexities of the first time round, then i figure there's mutation, but not necessarily bad.
so (may get shouted down here), if your yeast smells ok, then good to pitch


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## shacked (20/9/20)

Miran said:


> Is there any way to check the healthiness of yeast other than its smell? Is it possible for washed yeast to smell ok but still infected?



Are you washing your yeast or repitching slurry?

If you are washing, I'd suggest the risk of infection, cell damage and/or mutation is not worth it. Repitching from one batch to another is less risky but still not without risk. Having said all that, I'll generally go 2 or 3 generations with the same yeast but I pitch slurry from one fermenter to the other and don't cold crash to maintain cell counts.

I'd suggest that your yeast is healthy given the attenuation; it's just whether it has picked up a few mates along the way.

Here is the whitelabs guide on re-using yeast: Yeast Storage and Maintenance | White Labs


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## shacked (20/9/20)

Miran said:


> Still I think it is because of too much yeast. I used MGJ yeast 41 which was washed off from previous brew. Added some sugar to it after sperating sediments and kept it in fridge for a week. left it outside five to six hours before pitching. checked the smell before using it. It was damn nice and fruity.



With respect, this is unlikely. Underpitching can cause underattenuation but overpitching doesn't cause overattenuation.


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## Grmblz (21/9/20)

Two additions of Galaxy, hop creep? Although it seems a bit quick for that effect.


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## Miran (21/9/20)

Grmblz said:


> Two additions of Galaxy, hop creep? Although it seems a bit quick for that effect.


Adding hops is another story for me! I am new in home brewery and trying to understand difference between hops. To be frank most of them smell the same for me and I cannot understand how to choose/recognize them. So I decided to brew ten liters batches with single hops. Now I am using mostly Cooper IPA with different hops one at a time. 15 grams 30 minutes boil, another 15 grams end of boil and 10 grams one week later dry hopping. Fuggles, goldings, Citra, Hallertau and galaxy till now done. Any better idea to improve my senses of hops? I don't want to mix them till get more familiar with them.


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## kadmium (21/9/20)

Those hops are all quite different. 

Fuggles is a classic English hop that imparts woody / earthy notes however some perceive it as mouldy / dirt

Hallertau is a noble German hop, which is spicy, floral and even hay like (I don't get hay from it)

Galaxy and Citra are the most alike. Citra being more of a citrus bomb, and galaxy being more of a grapefruit / citrus fruit / stone fruit explosion. 

They should also be used differently, with some being more for bittering, and some only for aroma or flavour. 

Galaxy for instance shouldn't be boiled, and only steeped or "whirlpooled" and if boiled, at most 10 minutes. 

Citra can be used both as a bittering (boiled) and steeped/ whirlpooled. 

Both citra and galaxy are great dry hopped (added to the fermenting beer)

The fuggles and hallertau can be dual purpose, but probably not ideal for dry hopping, and the styles they go into generally aren't dry hopped. 


Also, I get a similar smell on hops, they don't really smell (or taste) like what they will in the final product. Once they have been boiled, steeped or dry hopped their oils change (through isomerization or bio transformation and other things) which brings out the flavours and aromas as they are described. 

In essence, raw hops don't smell or taste like their descriptions. That's a description of their final form in the finished beer. 

The most important thing with fresh hops (or pellets) is to make sure they don't look off, strange colours and importantly don't smell "cheesy". I get a parmesan cheese type smell from bad hops, which does come through in the beer. 

In short, SMaSH (Single Malt and Single Hop) beers are great at trying out their nuances, but some hops don't do well in a smash style beer. Noble German, English and some others are more reserved for their styles. Lagers, porters, stouts, dark ales etc. 

If you want to read up on all the hops, brulosophy do a "hop chronicals" series which is an interesting read.


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## Grmblz (21/9/20)

Miran said:


> Adding hops is another story for me! I am new in home brewery and trying to understand difference between hops. To be frank most of them smell the same for me and I cannot understand how to choose/recognize them. So I decided to brew ten liters batches with single hops. Now I am using mostly Cooper IPA with different hops one at a time. 15 grams 30 minutes boil, another 15 grams end of boil and 10 grams one week later dry hopping. Fuggles, goldings, Citra, Hallertau and galaxy till now done. Any better idea to improve my senses of hops? I don't want to mix them till get more familiar with them.


Hi Miran, that's a really good way of going about it, change one thing at a time and evaluate the result, but you can save yourself some time, as Kadmium points out, some hops are for bittering (boiling) some are for aroma/flavour and not to be used for boiling/bittering, others are multi purpose and can be used for both so look at the descriptions on the web sites, they usually tell you what the expected use of that particular hop is. 
Read and re-read Kadmiums post ^ it's a very good starting point.


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## butisitart (21/9/20)

Miran said:


> Adding hops is another story for me! I am new in home brewery and trying to understand difference between hops. To be frank most of them smell the same for me and I cannot understand how to choose/recognize them. So I decided to brew ten liters batches with single hops. Now I am using mostly Cooper IPA with different hops one at a time. 15 grams 30 minutes boil, another 15 grams end of boil and 10 grams one week later dry hopping. Fuggles, goldings, Citra, Hallertau and galaxy till now done. Any better idea to improve my senses of hops? I don't want to mix them till get more familiar with them.


your other balancing act with bittering hops vs aroma is pretty simple.
most bittering hops (dr rudi, pride of ringwood etc) have high ibu's. so that's the engine room for bittering up your beer (which is necessary)
your aromas (hallertau etc) will usually have way lower ibu's, so they are not as potent per volume.
loosely, and just to point you in the general direction, if your germanic brew needs an ibu of 30, and your dr rudi runs at 12% while your hallertau runs at 2% ibu, then you would need 6 times as much hallertau to achieve your bittering level. which gets pretty expensive.
so, (this is hypothetical, just to give you an idea), you might load up 20-24 ibu of your 30 with dr rudi at the start of the boil, then add the other 6-8 ibu of hallertau much later, so you get the hallertau flavour piggybacking on the dr rudi diesel.
this is a generic post, so i'm giving more a loose philosophy rather than instructions on how to. agree with above, see kadmium above. hope it gives you a sense of why you might go long on a high ibu hops and shorter on the 'style' hops that suits your beer.


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## Miran (21/9/20)

butisitart said:


> your other balancing act with bittering hops vs aroma is pretty simple.
> most bittering hops (dr rudi, pride of ringwood etc) have high ibu's. so that's the engine room for bittering up your beer (which is necessary)
> your aromas (hallertau etc) will usually have way lower ibu's, so they are not as potent per volume.
> loosely, and just to point you in the general direction, if your germanic brew needs an ibu of 30, and your dr rudi runs at 12% while your hallertau runs at 2% ibu, then you would need 6 times as much hallertau to achieve your bittering level. which gets pretty expensive.
> ...


too many likes ! I got the answer of my next question which was how to go for hops combination. Let me ask you about maltiness of beer. Is there any way to have some balance ( ok some times biased) hoppiness and maltiness of beer. Still alot of beer lovers wants to taste alittle bit malts beside hops?


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## Miran (21/9/20)

kadmium said:


> Those hops are all quite different.
> 
> Fuggles is a classic English hop that imparts woody / earthy notes however some perceive it as mouldy / dirt
> 
> ...



Let me ask this... Does Fuggle or Willamette (I hope spelling is ok) in Stout do any magic if you want to add some coffee and cocoa beans to frementer? Do we need to add them or we just add it becasue we have been told? I understand now that citra change (alot) the taste of IPA but regarding fuggles/Willamette in Stout.. I can not understand difference in taste if there are any other added stuff into frementer ( my case.. coffee or cardamom) ? Is adding hops to beer a "MUST"?


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## kadmium (21/9/20)

I would say hops are an essential ingredient in beer, if not for anything other than to balance out the sweetness. 

If you had no hops, you would have no bitterness and would need to find another way to balance it out. 

Hops do help with preserving the beer and keeping other bacteria in check (not sure how much hops is actually needed) and they do act as a foam stabiliser and preserver. 

Hopeless beer is called a grooit and I don't particularly like it.


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## Grmblz (22/9/20)

kadmium said:


> I would say hops are an essential ingredient in beer, if not for anything other than to balance out the sweetness.
> 
> If you had no hops, you would have no bitterness and would need to find another way to balance it out.
> 
> ...


"HOPELESS!" Weeelll without hops I guess it would be.


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## Miran (3/10/20)

I brewed the second batch using Morgan IPA extract. This time used Fresh Mangroove jack M42. Sanitization and temperature control as usual and all other ingredients the same just changed the hop to Cascade. AGAIN the same issue FG was low as 1.002. Now I guess issue is MOrgan extract or MGJ yeasts?!


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## MHB (3/10/20)

Lets look at the odds. Morgans is part of Coopers and they make many thousands of kits a year. Mangrove Jacks produce lots of yeast.
Run a search for reports of over attenuating beer with Morgans IPA and MJ yeast.
Unless there are a fair number of other players reporting the same low FG it much more likely that you have an infection, there are a lot of wild yeasts that will hyper attenuate, it could have got into your equipment, not been killed during your cleaning and re-infected your beer.
In fact I would put money on it being your problem rather than the manufacturer.
Mark


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## Miran (3/10/20)

MHB said:


> Lets look at the odds. Morgans is part of Coopers and they make many thousands of kits a year. Mangrove Jacks produce lots of yeast.
> Run a search for reports of over attenuating beer with Morgans IPA and MJ yeast.
> Unless there are a fair number of other players reporting the same low FG it much more likely that you have an infection, there are a lot of wild yeasts that will hyper attenuate, it could have got into your equipment, not been killed during your cleaning and re-infected your beer.
> In fact I would put money on it being your problem rather than the manufacturer.
> Mark


Considering you are right and some infections in my equipment then
- I tried first batch after two weeks bottling, all are good but it is too watery ( no body!!)
-Frementer is the same for both batches and I cleaned it by OZbrew sanitizer completely for one full day.
- Both MGJs yeast should have low attenuations (according to website but for me they look like beasts, air lock start bublling after 30 minutes nonstop for more than a week)

Now I brewed another IPA in the same frementer using the washed yeast from previous batch (MGJ M42) if the gravity again low then I am going to consider issue is sanitiozations or high attenuations of MGJ yeast. Considering MGJ yeast ok then issue will be my sanitization.

I ll update you on results but need to know which damn sanitizer have to buy if the FG again is too low. Right now please!
Anyway I ll come for you money if this batch FG will be ok


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## kadmium (4/10/20)

If you're using washed yeast then you could melt your fermenter and recycle it into a new one and you would still have the same issue because, if you have an infection or some wild yeast then they are in the washed yeast you are using.


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## Miran (4/10/20)

kadmium said:


> If you're using washed yeast then you could melt your fermenter and recycle it into a new one and you would still have the same issue because, if you have an infection or some wild yeast then they are in the washed yeast you are using.


Sanitizing everything and using new yeast... that what I did last time and still encountered hyperattenuation. What do you suggest for thorough sanitization of my frementer? This time I ll use safeale US 05 yeast. 
I am not using second frementer so my batch normally stays in frementer for two weeks and then I bottle/keg it.


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## kadmium (4/10/20)

If it a HDPE fermenter then you really need to give it a good clean inside with a soft cloth and hot water. Use some brewery cleaner or similar. 

Make sure you take the tap out of the fermenter and take it apart. Clean all the parts of the tap, paying attention to the threads. You can boil the tap to ensure it's thoroughly cleaned. 

Take the black seal out from the lid, and ensure you clean behind in. Make sure the lid is thoroughly cleaned. Clean the black seal well. Ensure there is no gunk any where. 

Spray everything down with starsan from a spray bottle and let it air dry.

Then on brew day, spray down all the parts of the tap, and put it back together. You can use some lubrifilm to make it easier to take apart and prevent leaks but go sparingly. 

Spray down the black seal and behind where it sits, then put it back together. 

Give the fermenter body a good spray down and fill. 

Don't forget to spray down and sanitise anything that touches wort post boil. If you have a racking cane or vinyl tubing that you use to transfer to the fermenter, make sure it's replaced (best option) or you're certain its clean and sanitary. 

Star San isn't super effective at eliminating wild yeast infections etc but a good proper wash and clean should help eliminate. 

You can as a last resort do a bleach clean, but you will need to leave your thoroughly rinsed fermenter out in the sun for a day to help get rid of any left over chlorine or you risk producing chlorophenols when your yeast get to work in the presence of chlorine. 

Also, if using tap water make sure its good quality, and I would suggest pre boiling and cooling or bottled. Just to ensure you don't have a local infection in your water. 

It can be a real pain to chase down a brew house infection.


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## MHB (4/10/20)

This is probably going to shit Darren the Drunk no end, but I would think seriously of using some bleach!
Assuming its something like the common open head drum type fermenter. Depending on the exact material and how well the fermenter was made some plastics can be quite porous if you filled the fermenter wit hot (tap) water and added some bleach, shove everything made of plastic that you use in it (the lid will usually fit in if you push hard enough). Leave it to soak overnight. Next day, drain and rinse well. Put it in the sun for a couple of days, this will drive out most of the Cl. Then clean and sanatise as per usual.
Iodophors would be another good (better) option, the good old Pink Stain Remover (Chlorinated Tri-Sodium Phosphate) would work well. If the fermenter isn't in good condition replace it and all the fittings. Often if you get a sick fermenter its easier to just replace it than to try and get it sterile.
I know how frustrating persistent infections can be, sometimes its the environment, a tree in flower that is shedding masses of wild yeast, a vineyard over the hill, even a moldy dank old laundry that you shouldn't really be brewing in. Have a long hard look at your environment, if all else fails Stop take a short break from brewing, come back in a month or so, clean like buggery and try again.
Mark

Kadmium posted while I was typing - pretty much the same thoughts - you need to be absolutely scrupulous in your cleaning and sterilising.
Luck M


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## Miran (4/10/20)

Can I use dettol or some other household cleaners from Woolie or coles for sanitization? If not I can get some Trisodium phosphate . I checked and seems I can find Tricleanium in Bunnings.

Trying to do not use bleach as I need my frementers out of service for three to four days at least. I am going for my first all grain brew next weekend and honestly do not want to loose it or buy anymore frementer as I do not have any more space in my room


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## MHB (4/10/20)

Do you think it might be possible that there is a difference between Chlorinated Trisodium Phosphate made for cleaning and sanatising food processing equipment and Trisodium Phosphate (without the Cl needed to kill bugs) made to clean crap off walls?

Not much point in asking questions if you think you already know better, dude your happy to blame anyone and everything other than yourself for the problems your having. When you get advice you come up with some hairbrained alternative, Dettol FFS, why don't you try Pin o Clean and a dunny brush.
On your own from here Luck, I think you are going to need lots!
Mark


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## Miran (4/10/20)

Mark no offence from my side. My apology to you for considering my questions rude!! i went through word by word of your and Kademium suggestions and being in all Darwin and websites to find your suggested ones. No one here on the shelves. So tries to google and find other approaches! Anyway i have not blamed anyone!! tnx for all your advise. Already bought some pino clean too


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## Grmblz (4/10/20)

"why don't you try Pin o Clean and a dunny brush" You're stealing my lines Mark, and now look what's happened


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## Miran (9/10/20)

MHB said:


> Do you think it might be possible that there is a difference between Chlorinated Trisodium Phosphate made for cleaning and sanatising food processing equipment and Trisodium Phosphate (without the Cl needed to kill bugs) made to clean crap off walls?
> 
> Not much point in asking questions if you think you already know better, dude your happy to blame anyone and everything other than yourself for the problems your having. When you get advice you come up with some hairbrained alternative, Dettol FFS, why don't you try Pin o Clean and a dunny brush.
> On your own from here Luck, I think you are going to need lots!
> Mark


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## Grmblz (10/10/20)

Be aware, it kills everything, but also STAINS! everything, good product and safe for stainless steel, wear gloves unless you like purple hands


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## yankinoz (10/10/20)

Consider Iodophor. Despite its drawbacks---light and various water impurities degrade it---it's a broad spectrum sanitizer, works on wild yeasts, which Star-San does not do well (see a well-referenced posting at Starsan not effective against wild yeast and molds!). I soak taps in it, and you can examine color to check penetration into the tap. Betadine liquid at 3ml/L provides the recommended concentration if nothing is degrading it. Better, go by color; charts can be found online.


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## mje1980 (10/10/20)

I prefer iodophor but i haven’t been able to find it locally. Last 5l bottle lasted over a decade.


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## yankinoz (11/10/20)

mje1980 said:


> I prefer iodophor but i haven’t been able to find it locally. Last 5l bottle lasted over a decade.


Betadine is a solution of iodophor in water. The only difference from what brew suppliers sell is concentration, and that is only slightly different. Use 3 ml/L or a bit more depending on your water, as above. Most chemists stock Betadine in L bottles.


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## Miran (11/10/20)

yankinoz said:


> Betadine is a solution of iodophor in water. The only difference from what brew suppliers sell is concentration, and that is only slightly different. Use 3 ml/L or a bit more depending on your water, as above. Most chemists stock Betadine in L bottles.


So is it possible to use betadine in general stores for sanitization of brew stuffs with higher mixing ratio than iodophor?


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## yankinoz (12/10/20)

Miran said:


> So is it possible to use betadine in general stores for sanitization of brew stuffs with higher mixing ratio than iodophor?


Yes. Betadine is sold an antiseptic. I used it after checking manufacturer's specs to make sure it did not contain something you wouldn't want in beer, such as denatured alcohol. It's an iodophor solution that differs from what is sold for brewing only in concentration. Note chemists also sell Betadine as an ointment. Needless to say, that won't work.

On other brew sites you will find this same topic comes up. On one a manufacturer chimed in and said there's no difference.


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