# My cider stinks



## TheBaron (15/4/14)

As the title says.

I put down my first cider on Saturday, so it's been in the fermenter for almost 72 hours now.

I checked on it yesterday and noticed some very distinct smells. I would describe them as "sulphury", as others seem to have.

FYI, my (very simple) recipe was:

12L preservative-free apple juice
Wine yeast from LHBS

mixed in a brand new Bunnings water tank that had been soaked with Coopers sanitiser overnight and rinsed thoroughly. Contamination seems unlikely but I guess you never know.

I've done a search and can see that other people have had similar problems with cider, but I couldn't find any record of anyone actually bottling cider that smelt funny and seeing if it tasted okay in a few months. Has anyone gone through with a smelly batch to see how it tastes in a few months? Is there anything I can do about this now or for a future batch if it's a problem? Or do I just need to relax, bottle it in a few weeks and let it do its thing?

I tasted it yesterday (against my better judgement) and it actually tasted fine, very similar to the juice before any fermentation.


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## TimT (15/4/14)

'Sulphury smells' certainly doesn't sound that unusual. Yeast throws up some weird odours during fermentation. I did an open fermentation a month or so ago; first day I got lovely bready smells; second day similar, though it was changing; third day it was well into the sulphur territory. That's just about 72 hours....!


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## lael (15/4/14)

The sulphur is because apple juice lacks nutrients. Get some yeast nutrient, boil in a small amount of water for 5-10ins and throw into the fermenter. chances are fermentation is not done yet. Ferment around 16C if possible. Cold crash for an extended period prior to bottling. 

The definitive(fish) guide to cider is a great source of information .


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## lael (15/4/14)

ish - not fish. Autocorrect


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## TimT (15/4/14)

If all other signs of fermentation are good I wouldn't worry.


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## TimT (15/4/14)

I question whether the sulphury smell is caused by the apple juice lacking nutrients, for one thing because I've experienced it in other ferments anyway - my open ferment that threw up sulphury smells went down from a high gravtiy of around 1.070 right down to a gravity of around 1.009; the yeast was clearly happy!

For another thing, I don't know whether apple juice would lack nutrients. Apples are very rich and usually have wild yeasts living on them; one traditional method for making cider is to press the juice out and let it begin to ferment by itself. However, store juice is not a very good base for cider - it's selected for sweetness and not fermentation. It's apple season so you could well supplement the cider with juice from crab apples or other tannin-rich varieties.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (15/4/14)

I recently did a cider using Mangrove Jacks cider yeast, this has nutrients included in the pack which is an advantage.
Still it gets a sulfur smell during fermentation. The finished product is very good, one regular cider drinker and brewer commented it was the best craft brewed cider he has drank.
Nev


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## TheBaron (15/4/14)

Cheers for the replies.

I've had a look at the definitive(fish) guide to cider and enjoyed the read immensely. 

I'll look into yeast nutrients - it's something I'm willing to try if I can get some from my LHBS on short notice (they have weird opening hours).

Good to hear some other people have had the same symptoms and ended up with a good result.


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## Wilkensone (15/4/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> I recently did a cider using Mangrove Jacks cider yeast, this has nutrients included in the pack which is an advantage.
> Still it gets a sulfur smell during fermentation. The finished product is very good, one regular cider drinker and brewer commented it was the best craft brewed cider he has drank.
> Nev


Was this the same recipe as above or more complex?


Wilkens


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## lael (15/4/14)

Also curious to know your recipe Nev. Always looking for a good cider recipe


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## Online Brewing Supplies (15/4/14)

The recipe is probably more technique than materials.
Berri apple juice is the fermentables.
I started with 1 x MJ cider yeast which I pitched into 4L of juice, I left this till it was really going strong then pitched that into another 12L of Berri Juice.
The last part of the ferment was done in a corny keg, I then transferred the finished product to another keg and left for about 3-4 weeks.
It took a while to remove the sulfur smell. I then back sweetened to taste.
Nev


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## Mutaneer (15/4/14)

TheBaron said:


> mixed in a brand new Bunnings water tank that had been soaked with Coopers sanitiser overnight and rinsed thoroughly. Contamination seems unlikely but I guess you never know.


I'm tipping the Sanitiser is Metabisulphate based.

I had issues with some beers smelling sulphury, as i was using it to sanitise my bottles.

I now use a food grade sanitiser from the local cleraning supplies place.
mix 1ml per litre, only needs a few minutes contact time, and it's usable straight away with no rinse needed.


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## manticle (15/4/14)

> I question whether the sulphury smell is caused by the apple juice lacking nutrients, for one thing because I've experienced it in other ferments anyway - my open ferment that threw up sulphury smells went down from a high gravtiy of around 1.070 right down to a gravity of around 1.009; the yeast was clearly happy!
> 
> For another thing, I don't know whether apple juice would lack nutrients. Apples are very rich and usually have wild yeasts living on them; one traditional method for making cider is to press the juice out and let it begin to ferment by itself. However, store juice is not a very good base for cider - it's selected for sweetness and not fermentation. It's apple season so you could well supplement the cider with juice from crab apples or other tannin-rich varieties.


Apple juice is well known for lacking various nutrients that make yeast happy. The presence of wild yeasts on skin is not the same as a healthy fermentation for an alcoholic beverage.

Sulphur compounds are common in beer brewing too (there are many types) and lack of sufficient nutrients can be one cause of H2S (as can infection).


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## TimT (15/4/14)

_Apple juice is well known for lacking various nutrients that make yeast happy._

Manticle, I hadn't heard that before; I don't think my how to make cider book - can't find it, but it's the one co-written by E. Annie Proulx - even *mentions* yeast nutrient. Are you talking about commercial apple juice, the standardised processed stuff you find in the shops? Or would this hold true for home-made apple juice too - from apples, freshly milled and crushed, skins and all? Because I'm guessing a lot of the good stuff for yeast would be on the peel.


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## manticle (15/4/14)

Both. Proulx book talks about steak historically being used to rescue stalled ferments due to being nitrogen rich (she recommends against it).


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## TimT (15/4/14)

Yes, I remember the steak mention  My other thought was store-bought apple juice is usually pasteurised, which would further denature the juice and presumably make it less hospitable for yeast.


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## Edgebrew (15/4/14)

Did you rehydrate the yeast or just sprinkle it into the fermenter? Proper rehydration helps the yeast. 

Did you shake the fermenter after pitching to aerate?


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## TheBaron (15/4/14)

Straight into the fermenter
No
Thanks for the advice. Some things to remember for next time I guess...

Just crossing my fingers that it's not an infection.


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## Mutaneer (15/4/14)

I doubt it hurt now to even pitch in some more yeast that's going vigorously.
It should take over any nasties if they exist

My process for getting it started is this,
Add yeast and some warm water to a small bowl and keep it warm for 20-30 minutes,
I then give it about 1/4 teaspoon of some yeast nutrient (I use go-ferm) and allow it to wake up for another 20 minutes or so
And finally add in a little juice to give it a good feed for another 20 minutes.

The result is a yeast that's fully started and "hungry" to get to work straight away,

I've had good bubbling through the airlocks after only 10 hours (in Hobart so maintaining 16-20 degrees) and a very clean ferment from all my batches so far with this process.

I also feed the brew again with 1/4tsp per 5L of GO ferm after about 48 hours to make sure there's plenty of nutrients for the little fellas


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## Greg.L (15/4/14)

Generally fresh pressed juice has less problems than supermarket juice. Fruit from a healthy orchard will have plenty of nitrogen if the farmer has been fertilising. In Europe apple orchards for cider are starved for N a bit so the ferment will go slower, Australia is a low nitrogen environment compared to Europe so orchards here get fertilised a fair bit. Fresh juice forums don't get a lot of comments about sulfur smells, though it is common with keeving. Keeved cider can be a little stinky by our standards.


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## Green-Lobster (15/4/14)

i read you can place a piece of copper , like a pieceof sterilised pipe into the brew to clear up the sulfur . had this problem last year and the brews i had this issue with, even though the smell disapated ,tended to leave me with a headache after 2 pints.
The nutrients are the answer, with that addition, never had a problem. I never tried the copper solution as i was to far down the track when i noticed . Would be good to hear if others have tried that remidy .
Cheers.


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## Mutaneer (16/4/14)

Unsure about the copper solution,
Just thinking back to High school Copper Sulphate experiments, you end up with brown/ blue precipitate that then turns clear if you heat it.
But you wouldn't heat your brew.

Some interesting reading on Sodium Metabisulfate here
http://www.seafish.org/media/Publications/sodium_metabisulphite_rpt.pdf

Particularly this bit
_"On contact with acids, metabisulphite liberates gaseous sulphur dioxide (SO2)" _

So with the acids in your apple juice or any added lemons, etc SO2 will stink.
Further reading gives this

_SO2 can cause severe irritation and __respiratory disorders. Sodium metabisulphite is a severe irritant through topical and _
_ocular contact and through ingestion._

and

_Sodium metabisulphite is an off white crystalline powder which emits harmful __sulphurous odour. In solid form metabisulphite is harmful to the skin, digestive __system and in particular the lungs. All exposure should be limited or preferably __removed through correct handling procedures. Protective equipment for handling __and operation should comprise oilskins, boots, rubber gloves and respirator. All __handling should be carried out in a well ventilated area._

Now, don;t know about you, but since reading a number of articles, I'm staying well away from metabisulphate as a preservative/ sterilising agent.


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## Greg.L (16/4/14)

SO2 and sodium/potassium metabisulfate have been proven safe in the quantities used in wine and cider for many years. The quantities are measured in ppm. Metabisulfate can contribute a slight bitterness and some people are more sensitive, but it doesn't contribute to the rotten egg sulfur smell at all. You should be careful using it in concentrated form but once diluted it is quite safe. It is perfectly reasonable to avoid using it but that doesn't mean a lot of scaremongering talk is called for.


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## Mutaneer (16/4/14)

Didn't mean for it to come across as scaremongering.

I've used it for years (in proper concentrations), but have had the same sulphur smells with some of the beers i used to do,
As soon as i stopped using it, no more smells.
Plus having asthmatics in the family, avoiding it was a better option.

Also, it's a pain in the butt to use a sanitiser, long contact time needed, plus have to wait for it to dry.


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## wynnum1 (16/4/14)

Problem with sulfur is if allergic or have low tolerance like gluten .Did a Mangrove Jacks cider pear and it had sulfur listed as containing and smelt sulfur during ferment . Mangrove Jacks cider yeast on there documentation will go as low as 12 degrees yeast works quickly.


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## Airgead (16/4/14)

Yeah... if you have asthmatics in the house, keeping it around (unless you can keep it well sealed and well away from them) is probably not a good idea.

There are much better sanitisers out there and if you want to use it as an antioxidant, using it in the form of campden tablets is a good way to go. Being a compressed tablet there is no loose powder floating around.

I tend not to use it at all as the missus has asthma and a reaction to so2 in wine.

But yeah... sulphur smell usually = low nutrients (although some yeast strains will produce some anyway).

Cheers
dave


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## TheBaron (17/4/14)

Cheers for the advice all.

Just as an update, I checked on the cider last night and the sulphur smell has pretty much gone, leaving behind a much less obvious but much more pleasant cider-ish smell.

I haven't done anything to make this happen, is there any chance this could mean fermentation has stalled?


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## Airgead (17/4/14)

Either that or it just means that the yeast has finished producing sulphur...

Has fermentation finished (ie: are you at your FG)? or is it still going?

Some yeasts will produce sulphur at first then once they exhausts whatever precursor chemical they are using, they will stop. Some will re-metabolise some of the sulphur they produced earlier and break the compounds down further to extract more energy from them. Yeast are complex buggers. Its not just sugar->alcohol+c02...Sulphur compounds will also react with other stuff in the wine to produce different compounds that may or may not impart a small or may bind into larger molecules and drop out of solution.

The main thing is that your cider no longer smells of farts. This is a good thing.


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## TimT (17/4/14)

_I haven't done anything to make this happen, is there any chance this could mean fermentation has stalled?_

Smells and gases emitted by a fermentation will change from day to day, just as the brew itself is changing. Anyway, it's not just the smell, innit? You should be able to tell there's a stuck ferment - if the gravity of the brew is not dropping over several days, there's no visible krausen or bubbling on the surface, or in the brew itself, if nothing is going through the airlock, then I might be more concerned. Then again, it might be a finished ferment too.


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## TheBaron (17/4/14)

Airgead said:


> The main thing is that your cider no longer smells of farts. This is a good thing.


True. I will count my blessings.

The gravity dropped from 1.021 to about 1.012 when I checked last night, I'm planning to check again tonight. I can hear audible bubbling which I'm taking as a good sign. I've also tasted it a few times and it has tasted noticeably drier each time, which is making me inexplicably excited. I never planned to get so much joy out of yeast and juice.


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## Mardoo (17/4/14)

TheBaron said:


> I've also tasted it a few times and it has tasted noticeably drier each time, which is making me inexplicably excited. I never planned to get so much joy out of yeast and juice.


Welcome to halfway down the slippery slope. Enjoy the ride!


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