# what did I get wrong?!?



## stuartf (17/1/16)

Did my first ag brew today in my shiny new gf. 5kg pilsner in 17l mashed at:
63C for 30min
raised to 70C for 30,
mashout 75C.
Sparged 15l.
Hops (haller mit) added as fwh, 60min and 10min. 
Calc OG from brewers friend 1.050 OG from reading post boil 1.026. Clearly I've messed up something here to miss my OG by that much, any ideas what I did wrong? OG sample tastes and smells great so happy to drink a mid strength pilsner as a light summer session beer but need to get my recovery up for future beers.
Any advice gratefully accepted


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## Dan Pratt (17/1/16)

How many litres into the fermenter did you get?

What did you measure the gravity with ?


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## Dan Pratt (17/1/16)

Did you crack the grain or did the homebrew store?


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## stuartf (17/1/16)

Ended up with 22l in fv. Measured with my cheap hydrometer which does read .005 out from true (checked against the di water from work). LHBS milled grain for me, seemed ok not too much flour but was cracked 3 weeks ago.


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## VP Brewing (17/1/16)

Hey mate, was your hydrometer sample still hot when you took your reading? They are calibrated to 20°C and the higher the temp of the sample, the lower the reading. 
If it was 20°C or you used a refractometer then unfortunately I can't help you.


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## paulyman (17/1/16)

Congrats on the first AG. I think I'm jumping across to the GF this week as well, need a simpler system that's quick and easy to setup and clean.

My first guess would be your grain crush, I noticed my efficiency improved when I started milling my own, I've even noticed a massive change since moving to another supplier.

See if the LHBS can adjust the crush for you, I know my local is really helpful and will do things like that for me.


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## stuartf (17/1/16)

Reading was after the counter flow chiller so was down to 31C, my calc says that would make it 1.028 so including the correction for my crap hyrometer (which i hadnt done in OP) i suppose that makes it up to 1.033? Still well short of what i was expecting though.


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## lmccrone (17/1/16)

VP Brewing said:


> Hey mate, was your hydrometer sample still hot when you took your reading? They are calibrated to 20°C and the higher the temp of the sample, the lower the reading.
> If it was 20°C or you used a refractometer then unfortunately I can't help you.


Rookie mistake, in fact that's exactly the mistake i made on my first ag brew, actually one of the mistakes I made.


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## stuartf (17/1/16)

Hi paulyman, would that be a finer or coarser crush though? Was thinking of ordering same grain from grain and grape to see if that makes a difference.
Other than the OG issue I can say the whole brew session went really well on the GF so with my limited experience I can recommend it.


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## wynnum1 (18/1/16)

Hydrometer no good testing with water manufacture know that brewer will test with water need to test 1040 or 1050 could be only accurate at 1000.


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## xenon2000 (18/1/16)

Have you thought about a refractometer? Pretty cheap from ebay nowadays and only takes a few mins to cool down an eyedropper of wort to test , which is all the volume it needs.


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## Rocker1986 (18/1/16)

wynnum1 said:


> Hydrometer no good testing with water manufacture know that brewer will test with water need to test 1040 or 1050 could be only accurate at 1000.


That's pretty much the standard way of testing them - in water at whatever temperature they are calibrated to, they should read 1.000. Unless one owns a refractometer as well, it's impossible to test it in a 1.040 or whatever solution and know if it's correct or not.

And if it's accurate in water, it'll be accurate in any solution. It's simply a weighted instrument for measuring liquid density, it's not gonna be accurate in one liquid and inaccurate in another, otherwise it would a completely useless piece of equipment for what it's designed for.


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## Killer Brew (18/1/16)

How did your sparge go? Some reports with the GF of sparge pulling through really quickly because of channeling and effecting efficiency (wouldn't account for all of this variation though).

Looks like you hit around 40% efficiency. Could be a milling issue too.


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## TheWiggman (18/1/16)

wynnum1 said:


> Hydrometer no good testing with water manufacture know that brewer will test with water need to test 1040 or 1050 could be only accurate at 1000.


 :huh:
Assuming I accurately translated you, the hydrometer wouldn't be that far out. Certainly testing with another hydrometer wouldn't hurt.
stuartf, are you sure you had 5kg of pils malt? i.e. did the supplier accidentally give you 3kg?


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## Blind Dog (18/1/16)

As I'm real



TheWiggman said:


> :huh:
> 
> stuartf, are you sure you had 5kg of pils malt? i.e. did the supplier accidentally give you 3kg?


Exactly what I was going to ask


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/16)

The only thing that will change Hydro readings is if the scale comes loose and slips, But you can still use water as a reference point and adjust accordingly. If your scale says 1005 in water, then add the 5 to your wort reading

Hydo's are linear in the nature of the measurement scale. The only other thing that could affect readings is if the scale graduation is not correct.

I got talking to a glass blower about this very subject. He made scientific glass hydros that where calibrated in a salt water brine. There is a figure of how many mm per unit of gravity that the hydro rises and is a set constant


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## Rocker1986 (18/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> If your scale says 1005 in water, then add the 5 to your wort reading


Or subtract it. If it's reading 5 points higher than the actual SG and you add another 5 then your end figure will be 10 points higher than the actual SG. 

Mine reads .998 in 20C water, so I simply add .002 to each reading. I found this was causing my efficiency numbers to be lower than they should have been as I wasn't aware of it being out for a while. Probably should check it more often. h34r:


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## wynnum1 (18/1/16)

You can buy narrow-range Final Gravity Hydrometer The scale range is only .990-1.020, but the individual gradients are extra large allowing for an easy read. I have a brigalo hydrometer that only reads to 1040 cost 2$ clearance probably paid too much broke the better ones .


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## Adr_0 (18/1/16)

Have you tested the OG again now that the beer is (hopefully) at pitching temp, 20°C? The hydrometer should have the correction on it in tiny writing, i.e. calibrated to 20°C, but if it's calibrated to 15°C then the error would be greater (and actual SG higher).

The mash time could have been a touch short for conversion, as it would have been a very pale beer. Another 30min on your mash time might help in future as a first step (at least for pale beers).

You can mash out at 78°C without a drama. How long was this mashout time for? What was your sparge water temp? Sounds like volume was right which was good.

Time (longer) and temperature (slightly higher) around the mashout and sparge will both help efficiency, as they both help sugars mobilise into the runoff. The first point about a longer mash though... if all the sugars weren't there to start with you are already at a big disadvantage. If you only have 3 or 4kg of grain that won't help things either...


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## welly2 (18/1/16)

wynnum1 said:


> You can buy narrow-range Final Gravity Hydrometer The scale range is only .990-1.020, but the individual gradients are extra large allowing for an easy read. I have a brigalo hydrometer that only reads to 1040 cost 2$ clearance probably paid too much broke the better ones .


You seem to have a shortage of these:



> , .


Feel free to have some of mine, I've got loads spare.



> ,,,,,,,,,........


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## paulyman (18/1/16)

stuartf said:


> Hi paulyman, would that be a finer or coarser crush though? Was thinking of ordering same grain from grain and grape to see if that makes a difference.
> Other than the OG issue I can say the whole brew session went really well on the GF so with my limited experience I can recommend it.


Sorry I missed this last night.

That I am not sure of, from I've learned here, the finer the crush the better the efficiency, but with the trade off of a possible stuck sparge.I currently BIAB with no sparge and do a decent crush with a fair bit of flour and since doing that rather than having the LHBS do it for me my efficiency has increased consistently over 10%! But I'm not sure if my current crush would be too fine for the GF. Which if I do hit the purchase button I'll find out the answer to in a few weeks.


Been a heap of great posts since (and before). I'd recheck gravity first and confirm it really is way off and wasn't just the lower density runnings sitting on top when you took the measurement. I don't think this is likely after an hour boil though. The suggestion that the grain bill wasn't the correct amount hadn't even occurred to me, but is probably the most likely!


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## pcmfisher (18/1/16)

I doubt if the crush is going to make that much difference. I reckon you should get better than that if you didn't crush the grain at all.

How's the accuracy of your mash thermometer? Not mashing at 40 deg or something silly?


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/1/16)

Rocker1986 said:


> Or subtract it. If it's reading 5 points higher than the actual SG and you add another 5 then your end figure will be 10 points higher than the actual SG.


Math was never my strong point in school......and then I did a trade that was full of heavy math


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## stuartf (18/1/16)

Thanks for all the suggestions. Weight of grain is a possibility as I talked the guy in lhbs into giving it to me for free since I was dropping over a grand on him for the gf. Too late now to confirm that either way unfortunately. Fv is in the fridge at the moment sitting at 12C so may take another sample and let it warm to 20C and see how that goes. As fir temp controller I'm pretty sure its showing the correct temp as I was checking with a separate thermometer and both were giving the same readings at different points of the mash. Think I'll chalk it down to experience and make sure all of the above possibilities are crossed of the list for next brew day.
Cheers


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## manticle (18/1/16)

I doubt any smart homebrew shop owner selling grainfathers is going to gib you a couple of kgs worth of grain.

Check a sample again as soon as you can, make sure the hydro is reading correctly as well.


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## stuartf (18/1/16)

Ok remeasured at 20C and hydrometer reads 1.032, refractometer from work reads 7 brix so looks like it is a true reading. Assuming I had 5kg if grain then I've lost a load in the mash. Sparge rate seemed ok but I don't really have a previous to compare to. Guess I'll try a longer mash schedule next time and see if that makes a difference. In the mean time I've got 23l of mid strength pilsner to enjoy


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## stuartf (8/2/16)

Tasted this brew this afternoon and can say its turned into a damned good drinker. Nice light sessionable beer. Will be repeating next weekend with a new batch of grain on a finer crush to increase the efficiency. First all grain brew down and id rate it a qualified success


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## Adr_0 (8/2/16)

Adr_0 said:


> The mash time could have been a touch short for conversion, as it would have been a very pale beer. Another 30min on your mash time might help in future as a first step (at least for pale beers).
> 
> You can mash out at 78°C without a drama. How long was this mashout time for? What was your sparge water temp? Sounds like volume was right which was good.
> 
> Time (longer) and temperature (slightly higher) around the mashout and sparge will both help efficiency, as they both help sugars mobilise into the runoff. The first point about a longer mash though... if all the sugars weren't there to start with you are already at a big disadvantage. If you only have 3 or 4kg of grain that won't help things either...


Great that you got a tasty beer - that should be pretty close to 100% of your goal when brewing. 

You might need more mash time, hotter sparge, longer sparge like this guy said.

If you have a heap of uncracked grains, yes, a finer setting will help. If everything is cracked, endosperm broken up slightly, the gain in a finer crush than this will be in the order of a few %, not 20%.


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## stuartf (8/2/16)

Yeah I'm planning on adjusting mash times a bit, especially mashout as I think it may have been a bit short. Definitely think the crush was too coarse. Looking back it was more like nearly whole grains with some cracking and a few broken up. Got the lhbs to mill a bit finer for me and the esb I just did hit the expected OG


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## CmdrRyekr (8/2/16)

Mash that low you need to mash for 90 mins.


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## Rocker1986 (8/2/16)

Efficiency is a funny thing... I BIAB and have been achieving increased efficiency since moving to a coarser grain crush. :lol:


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## stuartf (8/2/16)

Yeah I think there are a few things I need to try. Being my first ag I was pretty much doing and hoping it would be right. Learnt a lot from it though so hopefully v2 will be an improvement although that said for ny first brew I'm pretty happy with it. Big improvement in taste from the kits I started out with.


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## marksy (23/2/16)

I reckon your first mash step is too short. I would aim for an hour. 

Since your just starting out, keep it simple. Mash at 65 for an hour, then mash out, sparge and boil. 

It`ll take a few brews to get comfortable with your new system. You can always take readings during the mash as well. You should be getting really high numbers. 

I use and eksi and mash for about 2hrs to get a good eff.

You can always top up with some dry malt.

Good luck.


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## stuartf (27/2/16)

Ok well brewed this again today 63C for 60, 70 for 30 mashout at 78 for 10. Had the grain milled a bit finer and hit og of 12.2 on the refractometer which is spot on for the recipe. So not the most scientific approach since I cant confirm if it was the crush or the mash that caused my original low gravity but if it tastes as good as the original beer then I'll be a happy boy cheers


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## klangers (29/2/16)

Strike temperature? You mentioned mashing in at 63 oC, but did you strike at this temperature?

Doughballs?


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## TheWiggman (14/3/16)

Just feedback on this, a local had his grain milled at the LHBS. I talked him through the process at his place and brought my hydrometer along. Very low SG after 30 mins mashing. I got him to recirc it and there was minimal increase. After some discussion, I challenged weighs, crush etc. and he was confident the weights were right. He got another 2 packs of premilled recipes and it was clear the crush was unacceptable. 
He took them back, they agree completely, and recrushed the grain. Gravities on the next brew were completely different. For reference, original SG was 1.032 with a L:G ratio of 3l/kg. I typically get first runnings at around 1.065.

In this case I talked him into dropping his sparge and extending the boil to achieve his desired pre-boil gravity. After a long boil he was able to hit 1.062 but only half the volume. I asked him if he'd rather have a lot of weak beer or less good beer, and that question answered itself. It showed him why it's a good reason to understand the process and measure things regularly because there are many variables.


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## stuartf (14/3/16)

I'm leaning towards it being my original mash protocol being too short. The second version has just finished fermentation so about to cc for a week then bottle. Still have some of the first brew to compare with but tbh I changed the hopping times so isn't a true side by side


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## wynnum1 (15/3/16)

If the grain is course then having the grain in water longer would allow the water to penetrate and step mash using the lower temperature would prepare for when at the conversion mash temperature is reached .


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## danestead (15/3/16)

Rocker1986 said:


> That's pretty much the standard way of testing them - in water at whatever temperature they are calibrated to, they should read 1.000. Unless one owns a refractometer as well, it's impossible to test it in a 1.040 or whatever solution and know if it's correct or not.
> 
> And if it's accurate in water, it'll be accurate in any solution. It's simply a weighted instrument for measuring liquid density, it's not gonna be accurate in one liquid and inaccurate in another, otherwise it would a completely useless piece of equipment for what it's designed for.


You can actually test the calibration at any sg quite easily with a set of accurate scales.


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## Adr_0 (19/3/16)

danestead said:


> You can actually test the calibration at any sg quite easily with a set of accurate scales.


I hope you're not going to make some outlandish claim that 1° Plato is equal to 10g sucrose in 1L of water...


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## danestead (19/3/16)

Adr_0 said:


> I hope you're not going to make some outlandish claim that 1° Plato is equal to 10g sucrose in 1L of water...


Ok please explain why that isn't the case and how it should be done.


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## Adr_0 (19/3/16)

danestead said:


> Ok please explain why that isn't the case and how it should be done.


Being facetious. You and I and a heap of others might know this but I guess it's not universally known.


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## dblunn (19/3/16)

danestead said:


> Ok please explain why that isn't the case and how it should be done.


Wouldn't be 10g of sugar in a solution of 1kg total mass (1% w/w). There will be a liuttle bit less than 1L of water.
Dave


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## danestead (19/3/16)

dblunn said:


> Wouldn't be 10g of sugar in a solution of 1kg total mass (1% w/w). There will be a liuttle bit less than 1L of water.
> Dave


Correct. And for those that dont know how to do it:

1 plato basically means a 1% sugar solution by weight. So to test a hydrometers calibration it is suitable to mix up a 200mL solution. Our normal OGs are in the 1.048ish region or 12 plato. Dissolve 24g into 176g of pure water (distilled, deionised, RO or tap water if thats all you have). This will result in a 200g solution of which 12% (12 plato/brix) is sucrose (table sugar). Use accurate scales.


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## Adr_0 (19/3/16)

Sorry, yes - 1kg.

You can also use it to work out pppg values of sugars, eg demerara sugar or candi sugar. I think i worked out that 24g made up to 200g represented 1 lb per gallon


If your hydrometer is right you can then work out the pppg in SG. I think that's right anyway...


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## stuartf (20/3/16)

So as seems par for the course with this recipe I bottled today and realised I must have forgotten to add the whirfloc this tine around as it seems very cloudy. Who would have thought a smash pilsner would be so challenging! Ok lesson learned I've added the whirfolc to the recipe as an addition so hopefully wont forget it on version 3 when ever I get around to doing it again.


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## manticle (20/3/16)

Cloudiness can come from many things. Most beer when I package has some degree of haze which conditioning time sees disappear.


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## stuartf (20/3/16)

Hoping itll settle in the bottle and there aren't any off flavours from the sample I tasted before bottling so I'm sure it'll all be good. Just another step on the journey of discovery that is brewing. Its annoying it happened with the pilsner though, could get away with it on the pacific ale I did last weekend.


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## manticle (20/3/16)

Whirlfloc helps coagulate proteins in the boil, making it easier for them to drop out so you can leave them behind. So many other causes of haze following that - main one is yeast which cold, time and/or finings will help clear.
Let them carbonate and if still cloudy, place upright in the fridge for a few weeks.


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## stuartf (20/3/16)

Since the summer has abruptly left us here in Vic (32C on Thursday, 17 on Friday) I think they will get plenty of time to settle out. Time to move on to the heavier brews I think.


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