# Water To Grain Or Grain To Water



## Tony (14/2/06)

I think i asked this one a while back but i am interested in what people do with their mash in process.

Is there any advantages to either way that anyone knows off.

I usually put my water in first and mix in my grain but i am starting to toy with the idea of adding the water to the grain in the mash ton.

I have got a good hold on the thermal mass properties of my system now, they go up and down from summer to winter as i have found (my garage goes from 10 deg in winter to 45 deg in summer)

this is important if you want to add the water to the grain as you have to hit it strait on if you dont want to stuff around heating or cooling it to get the desired temp.

cheers


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## Gough (14/2/06)

I generally add my water to the grain in my tun via the underlet method.

Shawn.


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## colinw (14/2/06)

I was originally a practitioner of "water to grain", but then my brew-buddy started doing an incremental mash-in (a bit of water, a bit of grain) and we got a drastic reduction in the amount of dough ball formation and the time it took to get a well mixed mash.

Edit: replaced "grain to water" with "water to grain" above - originally wrote the exact opposite of what I meant.


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## Kai (14/2/06)

Water to grain, underletting.


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## warrenlw63 (14/2/06)

Dumping the grain in the water. 

Building up the fortitude to underlet. I'll get there. :lol: 

Warren -


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## KoNG (14/2/06)

80% of water in the tun, with grain then slowly added with stirring.
the remaining 20% of water is then added to hit temperature. (hopefully  )


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## nifty (14/2/06)

Water to grain via underletting. Never get dough balls.

nifty


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## Doc (14/2/06)

Water to grain by underletting for me too. Seeing a trend here.
Much quicker and less dough balls.

Beers,
Doc


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## Kai (14/2/06)

And all it takes is a length of hose from the HLT, easy as.


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## Mr Bond (14/2/06)

Grain into water ,nice and easy.Never had a dough ball yet  but the ol wrist gets a workout <_<


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## Jazzafish (14/2/06)

I have always used the grain into the water... promash calculates the temps for me. I have fallen short of my temp once, but I was taking far too long to add the grain...

Will have a chat with you Doc about underletting on Wednesday!

Cheers,
Jarrad


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## johnno (14/2/06)

Water to grain here as well.

johnno


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## PeterS (14/2/06)

I also underlet. Water to grain is the go...

Cheers.
PeterS....


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## Simon W (14/2/06)

I do small 2gal batches, so use stovetop.
Adding grain to water.


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## Darren (14/2/06)

underletting. Its nicer to the enzymes


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## warrenlw63 (14/2/06)

How?  

C'mon Darren, that's the response you wanted. (or needed?) :lol: 

Warren -


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## Joel (14/2/06)

I've begun underletting too. Not a single dough ball. Quick and easy.


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## stephen (15/2/06)

Pardon my ignorance but what is underletting?

WRT doughing in. I add about a third of my water to the MLT, add half the grain and stir, add another third of the water, the othe half of the grain, stir and add the final water.


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## Simon W (15/2/06)

I'm just guessing, but I think its filling the MLT (preloaded with grain)by the tap at the bottom, filling it slowly from the bottom up. Would need the HLT tap higher than the top of the grain. I would have thought the grist would just float on the surface of the rising water, but maybe it doesnt.


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## stephen (15/2/06)

Simon

That's what I was sort of guessing - filling the MLT through the manifold or false bottom. But still just a guess until some well learned person can enlighten me.

Steve


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## Kai (15/2/06)

Filling it from the bottom up, basically. I don't fill via the mash tun tap, I just push a length of hose to the bottom of the mash.


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## berapnopod (15/2/06)

I add grains to the heated water. Makes it easier to calculate strike temp with promash.

I have seen a few commercial breweries that will have the grains pouring in from the mill above the mash tun and hot water *sprayed* onto the grains before they reach the bottom. The reason for doing this is to reduce hot side aeration. Doesn't make sense, right? Well, apparently this method greatly reduces the contact of the grains with the air (particularly the powdery stuff).

I have also heard of homebrewers who add a cup of water to their grains before crushing and then mix well. The idea here is that when you crush the slightly damp grains, there will be less of the powder stuff floating around, which makes a mess, is potentially explosive, and again, may contribute to HSA.

Berp.


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## Ross (15/2/06)

I add grain to the water, very rarely get any doughballs, as long as you get a bit of momentum going as you pour the grain in. - but once I get a sightglass for my HLT I guess I'll switch to under letting, as this seems the easiest way...

Adding water to the surface of the grain, is asking for dough balls...

cheers Ross


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## Screwtop (15/2/06)

Darren said:


> underletting. Its nicer to the enzymes
> [post="108532"][/post]​




How come?


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## warrenlw63 (15/2/06)

Something I wanted to know too Screwtop.

One way or another the grain spends time in contact with water that's about 8 degrees higher than the mash temps. Doesn't matter what end of the grain dips its toes in first. :lol: 

Your question and Darren's rationale are an old chestnut.  

Warren -


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## Lindsay Dive (15/2/06)

I add the grain to the water as quickly as possible and then stir with a paint stirrer & drill @ 300 rpm. 
I've adopted this method since having huge problems with the Thomas Fawcett Maris Otter forming dough balls.
No problems now and no more dough balls.

Edit...Don't worry I'll get it right. 3000 rpm....holy dooley!


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## Aaron (15/2/06)

I add both while mixing. I haven't had any troubles with dough balls or anything else.


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## Gough (15/2/06)

Stephen,

I just run a short length of hose from my HLT tap to my mash tun tap and underlet that way. Works very well for me and has drastically reduced doughballs and sped up the time of my mash in. Like Lindsay has noted though, I still have the occasional doughball issue with Maris Otter for some reason, although less when underletting than previously.

Shawn.


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## Josh (15/2/06)

I add grain to water. Use an online calculator to work out the temps.
http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml

Might give this underletting a go, just to try something different.


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## JaCk_SpArRoW (15/2/06)

This is gonna sound like a really dumb question to all the experienced brewers out there but what is 'unerletting'??

Im in the process of getting my AG gear setup & was wondering what the significant difference of water to grain is vs. Grain to Water apart from the posts that have been made.


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## bindi (15/2/06)

Josh said:


> I add grain to water. Use an online calculator to work out the temps.
> http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml
> 
> Might give this underletting a go, just to try something different.
> [post="108670"][/post]​



Thanks for that link Josh  
I also now add the grains to the water but like others will try underletting [love these new words  ] now that my HLT now has a hot water element in it, thanks to Screwtop wiring it in for me and testing it :beer: we had to test my latest AG as well.


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## tangent (15/2/06)

c'mon Darren, fill us in. Why is it nicer to the enzymes?
Jack, read Kai's post above re: underletting.


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## warrenlw63 (15/2/06)

Bring back the old Darren.

He's gone all Alex de Large on us!! :lol: 

He's not responding to the taunts of the Droogs.  

Warren -


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## Ross (15/2/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> Bring back the old Darren.
> 
> He's gone all Alex de Large on us!! :lol:
> 
> ...



Give him a break, he's too busy bagging hops  ...


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## AndrewQLD (15/2/06)

I did underlet, but with my new system I just add the water to the grains and stir like mad. And the only reason I changed is I can't be bothered disconnecting and reconnecting hoses.
Cheers
Andrew


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## Screwtop (15/2/06)

Underletting water into the mash tun: All of the poor little broken grains realising that water is flooding up from below turn so their heads remain above water until the last possible moment (poor things). Then as they are all nicely aligned like some crystal lattice the enzymes squeeze them all together gently and the sugar flows from their fundamental orifice (which is now pointing downward) much kinder to the grain and enzymes and much better mash efficiency. True, plenty too mus


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## Screwtop (15/2/06)

bindi said:


> Josh said:
> 
> 
> > I add grain to water. Use an online calculator to work out the temps.
> ...




Was that your Dicky Beach Red, that was a great beer! and i mean A GREAT BEER!


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## Tony (15/2/06)

Ahhhhh UNDERLETTING.

The new tight ares stir plate  

everyone will be trying it now, i know i will when i get the rig up and running.

Till then i will have to let it run into the grain from the top and give it a mix.

I checked the poll and water to grain and grain to water are neck and neck, not much in it at all.

cheers all


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## Ross (15/2/06)

Tony said:


> Till then i will have to let it run into the grain from the top and give it a mix.
> 
> I checked the poll and water to grain and grain to water are neck and neck, not much in it at all.
> 
> ...



Tony,

I think you'll find most of those adding water second, are underletting & not adding from the top & mixing - that's just asking for doughballs...

cheers Ross...


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## Peter Wadey (15/2/06)

Colin wrote:

"I ........started doing an incremental mash-in (a bit of water, a bit of grain)
and we got a drastic reduction in the amount of dough ball formation
and the time it took to get a well mixed mash."

Well Col, I'll stand up and be counted as part of your minority.
I add proportionate amounts of water & grain into the (pre-heated) tun.

The only time I underlet is when I'm cooling down one batch
and mashing in nearby and I want to keep the flour down.

Gough,
Re balling with MO. My guess is you're getting more flour - yes?

Rgds,
Peter


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## Gough (15/2/06)

Peter Wadey said:


> Gough,
> Re balling with MO. My guess is you're getting more flour - yes?
> 
> Rgds,
> ...



I do tend to have a reasonably fine crush, although it is the same setting for all the various base malts I use and I only tend to see dough balls with MO. That said, since I began underletting a few months back I've had a lot less of an issue with the MO doughballs - hardly any now really. I just noted it in response to Lindsay's comment that he'd also noted more of a doughball issue with MO compared to other malts. 

Shawn.


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## Mercs Own (15/2/06)

I add the grain to the water slowly and stirring so as to mix the grain thoroughly - no dough balls. Water temp generally drops about 7 degrees.


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## johnno (15/2/06)

Just use Powells.
Very few dough balls and low efficiency.

johnno


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## Tony (15/2/06)

true ross....

will have to do some mods to my ton to do it with my current "whereever they stand) mash rig

cheers


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## Darren (15/2/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> Bring back the old Darren.
> 
> He's gone all Alex de Large on us!! :lol:
> 
> ...




Hey Warren and others,
I have a new job so no time to post during the day. Ahhh I loved being a full-time student.

I would have thought it would be obvious as to why under-letting is kinder on the enzymes.
If you are pouring malt into hot water approx half of the grains will be exposed to higher than normal mash temps. As you will all be aware enzymes are proteins and can very easily denatured (especially beta amylase). Hitting the malt with high temps is most likely to denature this enzyme and hence a sweeter beer will ensue.
If you are underletting, the cold thermal mass of the mash tun will rapidly drop the temp of the first "runnings" of water to around mash temps. As the water rises the temp stabilises slowly finally resulting at the correct mash temp.

cheers
Darren


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## wee stu (15/2/06)

AndrewQLD said:


> I just add the water to the grains and stir like mad.[post="108692"][/post]​



Me too. 
Why? 
Because I have always done it this way and am getting old enough to be resistant to change. 
Though I am beginning to notice my own pattern, hand cracked grain via the porkert, hand stiirred grain in the mash, all gravity fed system - so hand lifted (with extra hands) kettle of wort to the burner.
Result, truly hand crafted ales  
And a much longer brew day, and a dodgy back, and RSI in the wrist that does the cranking, but we won't delve into that further because I am old enough to be resistant to change :lol: .

awrabest, stu
the luddites' friend


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## Screwtop (15/2/06)

Darren, well explained and plauseable, is this proven tested fact? hope so it makes sense.


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## tangent (15/2/06)

ok, more contact heating mash tun and connectings first, than straight onto the grain so the strike temp is more evenly distributed


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## Darren (15/2/06)

Screwtop said:


> Darren, well explained and plauseable, is this proven tested fact? hope so it makes sense.
> [post="108813"][/post]​




Scewtop,
There is plenty of evidence that B-amylase is completely denatured (irreversibly killed) at high temps. 

cheers
Darren


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## Kai (15/2/06)

As are all enzymes. Sounds entirely plausible to me, although I don't think it would make a big difference unless you have a mash without a huge amount of diastatic power.


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## AndrewQLD (15/2/06)

Darren said:


> Screwtop said:
> 
> 
> > Darren, well explained and plauseable, is this proven tested fact? hope so it makes sense.
> ...



Darren i think screwtop was refering to the underletting and heat distribution theory as apposed to the enzyme denaturing theory :lol: 

Cheers
Andrew


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## big d (15/2/06)

thought i better add my vote into the poll.i underlet and have been doing so for awhile.posted ages ago about it courtesy of dicko.(whos very quiet these days).

cheers
big d


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## warrenlw63 (15/2/06)

Darren said:


> Hitting the malt with high temps is most likely to denature this enzyme and hence a sweeter beer will ensue.
> If you are underletting, the cold thermal mass of the mash tun will rapidly drop the temp of the first "runnings" of water to around mash temps. As the water rises the temp stabilises slowly finally resulting at the correct mash temp.
> 
> cheers
> ...



Shouldn't the cooler thermal mass of the bulk grain hitting the hot water and fairly rapidly dropping the temp as a whole have a very similar if not same effect on the whole process? :unsure: 

C'mon folks let's be totally honest, this is all BS. :lol: I'm not knocking underletting but both methods will work equally as well. 

My only reason for wanting to try underletting is the chance it will lessen the dreaded doughballs. :super: 

Darren, have you had a mash that you've dumped into strike water (that's if you've ever done one that way) fail to convert on you?

BTW congrats on the new job.  

Warren -


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## pbrosnan (15/2/06)

I too mix progressively starting with the water then three scoops of grain then a good stir then repeat the process until up to about 16L of water (depends on the grain bill). The water is usually heated to 80c or so but the mash temp will be about 63-67C (again depends on what I'm making) by the finish (with some additions of cold water). The whole process takes about ten minutes and I've had no trouble with doughballs. How come there's not voting option for us progressives?


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## wessmith (16/2/06)

Folks, when underletting you must have the water temp at a level to compensate for the thermal mass of both grain AND the mash tun. When adding just grain to water, you only need to allow for the thermal mass of the grain. My basic knowledge of physics says the latter procedure would be slightly lower in temp. And forget all this nonsense about denaturing enzymes in the mashing process - in practice it makes no difference to the conversion. 

BTW, if you undershoot your strike temp, the amount of hot water you need to add to bring it up just a couple of degrees will probably overflow your mash tun. Another good reason to keep the liqour to grist ratio up around 3:1 or even 3.5:1 - the thermal mass of the grain will have less effect on temp drop.

Wes


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## Stuster (16/2/06)

Sorry to jump on the bandwagon Darren, but a quick google seems to suggest that the enzymes are not as delicate as all that. (Of course, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but luckily none of this knowledge is mine anyway, so I'm safe.)

From this forum.



> The amalyase enzyme is amazingly stable and a dilute mash will not hurt the tertiary/quantinary structure. The half-life of beta-amylase in 18.2 M-ohm water is 10 years at -20 d c, >72 hours at 37 d c and > 24 h at 75 deg C.* I could go on, but it can be boring! However, one cool study showed the stability of alpha and beta-amalyase being nearly 3 months at 70deg C on a solid phase system.



Also from byo mr wizard



> Enzyme denaturation does not occur instantaneously and if you intend on mashing in at 140 F (60 C), for example, and accidentally come in at 162 F (72 C) you can quickly add cool water and retain the activity of some beta-amylase molecules that have yet to be cooked by the high temperature.



Anyway, I may well try underletting to see if it is an easier way to mash in.


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## Screwtop (16/2/06)

[/quote]

Darren i think screwtop was refering to the underletting and heat distribution theory as apposed to the enzyme denaturing theory :lol: 

Cheers
Andrew
[post="108824"][/post]​[/quote]

Spot on Andrew, from very limited experience 8 partials and one AG I have found that the temp of strike water added to the tun has to be increased by the thermal mass loss of the tun. Then the strike temp calculated using grain temp provides the correct infusion temp. Breweries use underletting from the kettle where the strike water and step additions are heated because the plumbing exists between kettle and mash tun. The water remaining is kettle/boil addition. Their sparge water is heated ready for sparging in the Lauter Tun. 

I simply wondered if underletting produced higher effiency or if it was simply to prevent dough balls, or just for convenience because the plumbing exists between the bottom of the tun and kettle as in the case of breweries.


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## Screwtop (16/2/06)

Bump


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## Ross (16/2/06)

wessmith said:


> BTW, if you undershoot your strike temp, the amount of hot water you need to add to bring it up just a couple of degrees will probably overflow your mash tun. Another good reason to keep the liqour to grist ratio up around 3:1 or even 3.5:1 - the thermal mass of the grain will have less effect on temp drop.
> 
> Wes
> [post="108854"][/post]​



Hence my purchase of a handheld immersion heater - takes all the stress of missing strike temp away... Strangely, since aquiring one, my initial strike rate has improved no end  ...

Cheers Ross...


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## warrenlw63 (16/2/06)

I see looking at the stats that we dump and stirrers are leading the poll by 4.55%. :beerbang: 

Do we get a nice doughball as a prize? Make mine a Marris Otter doughball please.  

Warren -


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## Weizguy (16/2/06)

Screwtop said:


> <abbrev>
> I simply wondered if underletting produced higher effi&copy;ency or if it was simply to prevent dough balls, or just for convenience because the plumbing exists between the bottom of the tun and kettle as in the case of breweries. </abbrev>
> [post="108858"][/post]​


Good question, Skrewtop. This needs to go in the 'Brewing Myths Debunked" thread.

I'd say "convenience, coz the plumbing exists". Balling would not be a problem due to mechanical stirrers, I think. Efficiency? Could not say. Doubt it. I think that they (megabrewers) derive efficiency from a finer grind/ higher extraction/ process control.

Can I get a witness who can quote from Kunze, perhaps?

Seth


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## Darren (16/2/06)

As far as i know breweries mix the grain and water together as they hit the tun. Ie they feed it as a sludge at excactly the correct temp. If it was all bullcrap Warren, why would they not just dump and stir  

cheers
Darren


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## wessmith (16/2/06)

Darren, most micros simply dump and stir. No great science and they hit their target strike temps without drama. Large commercial breweries use various mash mixing systems to introduce the grist and water to the mash tun at a temp that will eventually settle at the chosen temp. They still have to consider the thermal mass of the tun AND the malt. These same breweries usually have heated mash vessels so they can mash in at lower temps - ie below gelatanization temps and then slowly raise the temp to the desired rest. If you saw some of the mash programs that are used you would quickly realise as Warren has said, that all this nonsense about enzyme degradation is exactly that.

Wes


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## warrenlw63 (16/2/06)

Darren said:


> As far as i know breweries mix the grain and water together as they hit the tun. Ie they feed it as a sludge at excactly the correct temp. If it was all bullcrap Warren, why would they not just dump and stir
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="109006"][/post]​



Dunno Darren... You tell me. You're on a roll.  

I was merely stating that's it's OK to go both ways. (Stop laughing anybody, yes I could have worded it better) :lol: 

Warren -


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## Darren (16/2/06)

wessmith said:


> Darren, most micros simply dump and stir. No great science and they hit their target strike temps without drama. Large commercial breweries use various mash mixing systems to introduce the grist and water to the mash tun at a temp that will eventually settle at the chosen temp. They still have to consider the thermal mass of the tun AND the malt. These same breweries usually have heated mash vessels so they can mash in at lower temps - ie below gelatanization temps and then slowly raise the temp to the desired rest. If you saw some of the mash programs that are used you would quickly realise as Warren has said, that all this nonsense about enzyme degradation is exactly that.
> 
> Wes
> [post="109013"][/post]​




Hi Wes,
Not sure where you are coming from there or if you are being real or not. I have worked with many different enzymes and know what you just wrote is nonsense.
Why would a brewery "mash-in" at lower than mash temps, (you called it gelatinisation temps?) then raise the temp of the mash. Obviously, they are worried about denaturing something, and yes it is the B-amylase that most of which becomes irreversibly inactivated at above 65C. Look at the lab mash, it finishes in 10 minutes. 
What you do to the malt in the first 10 seconds will certainly make a difference to the finished beer (be it good or bad).


Finally what you wrote seems to be in disagreeance with an earlier post?



Crankandstein Pics
wessmith Posted on: Jan 1 2006, 04:18 PM


Brew Master
********

Group: Members
Posts: 309
Joined: 10-January 04
From: Southern Highlands NSW
Member No.: 327


Kai, if you want a really attenuative wort then mash at 64 to 65 - not 66. Its that dicky. Good luck with your Saison - one of my favourite styles and currently drinking but a bit heavy in this hot weather ar 6.?% ABV

Wes

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...posts&hl=&st=25



> cheers Darren


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## Guest Lurker (16/2/06)

As usual Wes hit it on the head. Its a question of whether you want 2 variables (tun heat losses plus grain heat losses) or 1 (the grain). I like to reduce the unknowns so I put the water in first, and get it to exactly the temp Promash says it has to be with tun thermal mass set to zero. Then I know I pretty much have to hit my strike temp when I chuck the grain in.


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## Darren (16/2/06)

GL,
What sort of mash tun are you using? I haven't seen any difference in the final temps between dump/stir and underletting. I suspect the thermal mass of a HB set-up is miniscule compared to the thermal mass of the grain.
You must be a dump and stir?

cheers
Darren


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/2/06)

I like to add the mash water to the tun, at a higher temp ( only 5*c or so), let it heat up the tun, then wait for it to cool down to strike temp.

I feel that it is important to get the tun up to strike temp first to reduce heat loss when adding grain.


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## Kai (16/2/06)

Guest Lurker said:


> As usual Wes hit it on the head. Its a question of whether you want 2 variables (tun heat losses plus grain heat losses) or 1 (the grain). I like to reduce the unknowns so I put the water in first, and get it to exactly the temp Promash says it has to be with tun thermal mass set to zero. Then I know I pretty much have to hit my strike temp when I chuck the grain in.
> [post="109030"][/post]​




Don't you have to take the thermal mass of the tun into account whichever way you slice it?


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## Darren (16/2/06)

Kai said:


> Guest Lurker said:
> 
> 
> > As usual Wes hit it on the head. Its a question of whether you want 2 variables (tun heat losses plus grain heat losses) or 1 (the grain). I like to reduce the unknowns so I put the water in first, and get it to exactly the temp Promash says it has to be with tun thermal mass set to zero. Then I know I pretty much have to hit my strike temp when I chuck the grain in.
> ...




Spot on kai and it doesn't make a lot of difference. Add the water first and you need to account for the loss of heat to the environment (upwards with lid open) too whilst you fiddle around slowly pouring the grains in.
Much of a muchness really except that underletting is easier and produces less dough balls.

cheers
Darren


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## Tony (16/2/06)

when i dump my hot water in the ton with no grain in it i switch on my pump and heat everything up before i add the grain.

I get a 3 deg c temp drop.

then when i add the grain i get the usual 5 to 7 deg drop depending on the water/grain ratio.

I generally set my promash mash tom thermal mass at 0.2 in summer and 0.25 in winter to hit strike temp on the head.

my ton is an uninsulated (it gets a blanket wraped around it on brew day) 50 liter keg and a davey hot water circularing pump.

all that metal soaks up 3 deg which would make a big difference to the mash i recon.

Still going to try underletting, i have been having haxe problems with some beers and not with others with the same procedure but different malts, must be dough balls.

cheers


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## AndrewQLD (16/2/06)

All of the above is interesting but slightly confusing. Using Beersmith or Promash after entering the thermal mass of my tun and the grain temp I hit mash in temps EXACTLY every single time, regardless of wether I underlet, overlet or add water and grains gradually. So I don't really thing it makes much difference to obtaining the correct mash temp.
And as far as denaturing enzymes, I can't see how adding water to the top of the grains or from the bottom would be any different, it's still hot water. I mash in with strike water at 73c for a 66c mash so in my case it would not be possible to denature any enzymes for the few seconds that the strike water comes into contact with the grain before the temp starts to settle.
Cheers
Andrew


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## Mr Bond (16/2/06)

Maybe we could wait until the brew comps this year and ask all the top 3 from each category what their methods are and see if it points towards a superior outcome from dough in mashing regimes.Not to mention all the other variables which make brewing such a subjective and debatable pursuit. :blink: 

Long live experimentation and lively debate :beer:


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## Darren (16/2/06)

AndrewQLD said:


> All of the above is interesting but slightly confusing. Using Beersmith or Promash after entering the thermal mass of my tun and the grain temp I hit mash in temps EXACTLY every single time, regardless of wether I underlet, overlet or add water and grains gradually. So I don't really thing it makes much difference to obtaining the correct mash temp.
> And as far as denaturing enzymes, I can't see how adding water to the top of the grains or from the bottom would be any different, it's still hot water. I mash in with strike water at 73c for a 66c mash so in my case it would not be possible to denature any enzymes for the few seconds that the strike water comes into contact with the grain before the temp starts to settle.
> Cheers
> Andrew
> [post="109049"][/post]​




Andrew,
When ever I have done a top addition I have filled the tun with hot water and slowly tipped the grains into the hot water. I always wonder whats happening to that labile enzyme whilst doing it too. 
If I have added hot water to the top of a tun full of grains I spend half an hour breaking all the dough balls.
Just my experience, water from the bottom, maybe one or two small dough balls. Water from the top, a tun full of dough balls.

cheers
Darren


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## Darren (16/2/06)

Brauluver said:


> Maybe we could wait until the brew comps this year and ask all the top 3 from each category what their methods are and see if it points towards a superior outcome from dough in mashing regimes.Not to mention all the other variables which make brewing such a subjective and debatable pursuit. :blink:
> 
> Long live experimentation and lively debate :beer:
> [post="109050"][/post]​




Time has shown that the winner of most HB shows is a newbie who spends his entire time at the mash. Winners come and go.
Its all about passion and the time you spend on it.

cheers
Darren


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## tdh (16/2/06)

I underlet the hot liquor at the Grumpy's mashtun whilst pouring the crushed grain on top. Keeps dough balls to a minimum and there's no hot water splashing around either.
Much easier mixing too rather than adding water to a huge dry pile of grain.

tdh


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## Guest Lurker (16/2/06)

Kai said:


> Guest Lurker said:
> 
> 
> > As usual Wes hit it on the head. Its a question of whether you want 2 variables (tun heat losses plus grain heat losses) or 1 (the grain). I like to reduce the unknowns so I put the water in first, and get it to exactly the temp Promash says it has to be with tun thermal mass set to zero. Then I know I pretty much have to hit my strike temp when I chuck the grain in.
> ...



Yes, by heating the water well above what Promash said it had to be. But my point is you then let the water sit in the tun, and if it doesnt come right you have all the time in the world to adjust it exactly where you want it, as compared to doing the adjusting after mashing has started, and having a greater thermal mass to move.


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## AndrewQLD (16/2/06)

I must be one of the lucky few, as I don't have a dough ball problem. Stir for a couple of minutes AFTER all the water is pumped in, which is pretty much what you do when you underlet.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Darren (16/2/06)

Guest Lurker said:


> Kai said:
> 
> 
> > Guest Lurker said:
> ...




Practice grass-hopper. 
Do not rely always on yee all mighty beer software.

cheers
sensai :blink:


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## Darren (16/2/06)

AndrewQLD said:


> I must be one of the lucky few, as I don't have a dough ball problem. Stir for a couple of minutes AFTER all the water is pumped in, which is pretty much what you do when you underlet.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew
> [post="109059"][/post]​




Andrew,
I bet your tun ain't full?

cheers
darren


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## AndrewQLD (16/2/06)

50 lt tun 1/2 full or 3/4 full for a double brew.


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## Darren (16/2/06)

And you see no dough balls at 2/3 full?

cheers
Darren


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## AndrewQLD (16/2/06)

No, I should say that I mash in and stir with a big stainless whisk so perhaps that breaks up the bed effectively, but no I don't get any dough balls. YET touch wood  

Cheers
Andrew


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## Kai (16/2/06)

Guest Lurker said:


> Yes, by heating the water well above what Promash said it had to be. But my point is you then let the water sit in the tun, and if it doesnt come right you have all the time in the world to adjust it exactly where you want it, as compared to doing the adjusting after mashing has started, and having a greater thermal mass to move.
> [post="109058"][/post]​




Aah


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## wessmith (17/2/06)

> Hi Wes,
> Not sure where you are coming from there or if you are being real or not. I have worked with many different enzymes and know what you just wrote is nonsense.
> Why would a brewery "mash-in" at lower than mash temps, (you called it gelatinisation temps?) then raise the temp of the mash. Obviously, they are worried about denaturing something, and yes it is the B-amylase that most of which becomes irreversibly inactivated at above 65C. Look at the lab mash, it finishes in 10 minutes.
> What you do to the malt in the first 10 seconds will certainly make a difference to the finished beer (be it good or bad).
> ...



Its called step mashing Darren, and that will help explain why you think my comments are in disagreement with an earlier post. I would suggest you persue the topic in "Technology Brewing and Malting" by Kunze and/or "Brewing" by Lewis & Young and "Malts and Malting" by Briggs. There is a fascinating difference between lab theory and actual practice surrounding this issue.


And hey, stop frightening people about this -Amylase degradation. It is of no consequence in a normal mash.

Wes


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## warrenlw63 (17/2/06)

wessmith said:


> And hey, stop frightening people about this -Amylase degradation. It is of no consequence in a normal mash.
> 
> Wes
> [post="109080"][/post]​



Hey Wes! Don't worry about our Darren.  

He's probably seen it happening real-time under his microscope...  

It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... :lol: (Apols. to The Aviator)

Sorry for trivializing this thread guys. It's sort of the way it's become. I agree with Wes... I've tried some pretty sloppy methods over the years and haven't managed to kill too much -Amylase that I can see.  

Warren -


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## Darren (17/2/06)

Wes and Warren,
Yes have read the text and maintain my stance. You and any other doubters should have a look at this link
http://www.ibd.org.uk/igbsite/business/tra...umm%20Sept..pdf

hope you learn something

cheers
Darren


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## tangent (17/2/06)

well, i just underlet for the 1st time (about 10minutes ago for an APA), and you're right.... less dough balls. In fact while I was stirring, i didn't see one dry patch


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## wessmith (17/2/06)

Darren, one of the great things about hands-on actual brewing experience is that you get to balance the theory with the practical. I too have read all the endless texts about enzyme degradation etc etc. Most of this research is targetted at major breweries who are seeking the ultimate in beer stability and clarity. Very little of it has any relevance in the micro and certainly not in the home brewing context.

Let me give you a couple of examples: An 800ltr micro brew, single infusion mash at 66C (last Saturday actually at the Macquarie Hotel in Sydney). Fill mash tun with 450ltr of strike water carefully mixed to 72C. Let sit for 10 mins to stabilise thermal mass of mash tun. In with 150kg of grist at 20C (brewery is airconditioned at 20C) and stir in - takes about 7 to 10 mins to mix thoroughly. Mash settles at 66C and thats the way it stays for a 60 min rest.

Or take the case of one of our DME breweries with a mash hydrator fitted. The grist is augered up from the mill into an enclosed "funnel" device where the grist is mixed with a tangential flow of hot water at around 74 to 76C. The output then falls into the mash tun.

In both cases the grist has been subjected to temps that you claim would irreversibly denature the -Amylase within seconds. But the beers are fine and attenuate to target. Why? Simple really - the grist would have no more than 12 to 15% flour with the rest being "chunks" of starch of varying sizes. Before these "chunks" can be hydrolysed they must be gelatinised and this takes a few minutes as they swell and release their enzymes. By this time the mash temp has stabilised and the conversion process proceeds normally. Obviously some of the AVAILABLE -Amylase will be denatured at mashin, but the overwhelming majority are still protected in those "chunks" of starch. Quite different from the Congress mash scenario in the lab.

And I reckon thats enough for this topic - as I said earlier lets not frighten people with this theoretical stuff. If you personally feel the need to debate enzyme theory I would suggest posting on the HBD where guys like Steve Alexander absolutely love this stuff.

Wes


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## warrenlw63 (17/2/06)

:super: 

Warren -


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## AndrewQLD (17/2/06)

Darren just agree to disagree, while you may have the theoretical expertise I daresay that Wes would have the practical experience and that is what we are talking about here, what happens in the homebrewers mash. Still an interesting conversation but it is starting to get a little tiring.

Cheers
Andrew


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## cubbie (17/2/06)

I am doing my first Ag tomorrow morn, so this has been an interesting topic.

The differing methods are interesting. When I was doing partials i always added the water to the grain, but at the most I only had 4kg to mix.

I can see the benifits of methods such as GL, whereby he add the water to the tun and then lets it cools to strike temp, but this must add a little extra time to the day. Mind you, it can save you some time becuase you are not likely to miss your strike temp.

Having said that I might give underletting a bash. By all accounts it seems to produce less dough balls. Which is great becuase 1. my stir spoon is a bit weak and 2.would appear to be a quick and clean method and 3. there would be less heat loss to the environment as the tun fills. I always have a problem calculating this.

I normally set my mash tun thermal mass to zero, becuase like most I pre-heat with boiling water.

Of course on the day things may change.


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## tangent (17/2/06)

if it's one of those white plastic "brewers spoons", snap it now (save some time) and throw it away.
If you've done a 4kg partial cubbie, just do the same thing without the extract.
You'll have an awesome day tomorrow, good luck :beer:


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## Screwtop (17/2/06)

tangent said:


> well, i just underlet for the 1st time (about 10minutes ago for an APA), and you're right.... less dough balls. In fact while I was stirring, i didn't see one dry patch
> [post="109132"][/post]​




Finally: What I wanted to see, evidence of practical experimentation. Thanks Tangent


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/2/06)

Darren does like to provoke some "very " spirited debate on any subject he touches.


h34r:


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## Doc (17/2/06)

wessmith said:


> BTW, if you undershoot your strike temp, the amount of hot water you need to add to bring it up just a couple of degrees will probably overflow your mash tun. Another good reason to keep the liqour to grist ratio up around 3:1 or even 3.5:1 - the thermal mass of the grain will have less effect on temp drop.
> 
> Wes
> [post="108854"][/post]​



Absolutely. I almost try to overshoot my strike temp by a degree, as it is easier to add a litre of cold water to hit the target, than trying to add hot to bring the temp up.

Beers,
Doc


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## Weizguy (17/2/06)

cubbie said:


> <abbrev>I am doing my first Ag tomorrow morn, so this has been an interesting topic.
> 
> The differing methods are interesting. When I was doing partials i always added the water to the grain, but at the most I only had 4kg to mix.
> </abbrev>
> [post="109170"][/post]​



cubbie,
Sounds like your 4kg mini-mash is more grain than my 25 litre full ag Berliner Weisse.

U should have no trouble with ag, coz U are already an ag'er (just topped up with extract).

Testify! :super: 
Seth


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## dicko (17/2/06)

big d said:


> thought i better add my vote into the poll.i underlet and have been doing so for awhile.posted ages ago about it courtesy of dicko.(whos very quiet these days).
> 
> cheers
> big d
> [post="108825"][/post]​



Hi big d and others,

A very interesting debate.
As big d said, I too, underlet my mash.
I was sick of dough balls and the final straw was when I broke the plastic spoon (two of them) when I used to add the grain to the water.
My strike water is allways 73 deg c to achieve 66 mash temp and hitting mash temp is now second nature for me with my brewery.

I have not had much time to participate or even read a lot of the posts as of late due to me expanding my business.
I have hardly done any brewing as well  - I sure hope this situation improves as the weather gets a little colder.

Cheers and happy mashing


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## johnno (17/2/06)

Welcome back dicko.

I too was wondering where you had got to.

johnno


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## big d (17/2/06)

hi dicko good to see your still around.

back to the topic
can someone post me a dough ball.ive never had this problem yet and my dog needs something to play with.interesting posts so far but at the end of the day all i want to do is make beer without the science jist.   

cheers
big d


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## dicko (17/2/06)

johnno said:


> Welcome back dicko.
> 
> I too was wondering where you had got to.
> 
> ...



Hi Johnno,
Working away from home a fair bit really interupts my brewing schedule and contributions to this forum.
I can't help big d's dog with a dough ball.  
Cheers


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## johnno (17/2/06)

Like I mentioned earlier, I add water to the grain.

One thing I have noticed is that the dough balls seem to be larger and more frequent with JW malts. When I use Powells they are smaller and less frequent.

I use a large SS flat cooking utensil(not sure what it is) to break the balls up and it works fine.

I am not at such an advanced stage (and probably never will be) where I worry too much about it.

Close enough is good enough for me at the moment.

You can make the best homebrew using the most scientific methods.

The bottom line is that there are still people out there (read: brainwashed megaswill drinkers) that will still tell you that it is shit beer, or something is wrong with it.

johnno


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## big d (17/2/06)

johnno
please forward any 25 kilo grain balls to me please.you can pay the freight.


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## stephen (17/2/06)

johnno said:


> Like I mentioned earlier, I add water to the grain.
> 
> One thing I have noticed is that the dough balls seem to be larger and more frequent with JW malts. When I use Powells they are smaller and less frequent.
> 
> ...


Johnno

Toatally agree with you. I had a homrebrew tasting at work recently (only half a dozen or so fellow workers and after a night shift) to introduce some of my fellow workmates to something different, I brought in two of my English ales and presented them to them. Out of the six or seven all but one asked questions about certain flavours, thought about what they were tasting etc and finally came to the conclusion that the beers were quite good. (No big noting myself here just stating the facts.) The odd one out was a sad person. As far as he was concerned, "If it isn't VB or tastes like VB then it is all shit!" Poor fellow is a lost soul.

As for the others one has started home brewing already and two that already were home brewing want to know how to improve their K & K brews. (Too nervous to advance at this stage.) But H'Bing has had a win!

Steve


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## johnno (17/2/06)

big d said:


> johnno
> please forward any 25 kilo grain balls to me please.you can pay the freight.
> [post="109361"][/post]​



Barret Burston are just down the road big d.

One GIANT dough ball heading your way.  

BTW they also sell bulk, but you need a semitrailer. (bulkbuy anyone?)

I also note that they sell 
Gairdner Malt 1 and Schooner Malt 1. Someone care to elaborate on that?
(hint hint wes)
Is that like VB and Fosters Lager malt?


johnno


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## warrenlw63 (18/2/06)

Dicko.

Have to second or third what others have said... It's a lonely forum without you. :beerbang: 

Stay in touch.  

Warren -


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## Weizguy (18/2/06)

johnno said:


> big d said:
> 
> 
> > johnno
> ...



I think Coopers uses Schooner.


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## warrenlw63 (18/2/06)

Schooner?!?

Now there's a horrid blast from the HB past... I can remember when that and Franklin Pils Malt (anybody remember that?) were all we could get.  

Thank goodness for progress. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## wessmith (18/2/06)

> I also note that they sell
> Gairdner Malt 1 and Schooner Malt 1. Someone care to elaborate on that?
> (hint hint wes)
> Is that like VB and Fosters Lager malt?



Both Gairdner and Schooner are strains of barley. Barretts at Richmond mainly supply the Abbotsford brewery and they still require a small amount of Schooner - or more correctly malt made from Schooner - to ensure they dont get "over conversion" in the mash tun. As we recall, Schooner was never a great malt for attenuating in fermentation.

Coopers are supplied by Joe White and I doubt there is any Schooner still grown in SA. It would be mostly Gairdner or some of the newer strains (Darren?)

Wes


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## johnno (18/2/06)

Thanks Wes.

Think I'll stop trying to get hold of a semi after the explanantion.  

johnno


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## wessmith (18/2/06)

Johnno, you would have needed a bit more kit to handle the semi load. A normal grain semi holds 36 to 38 tonnes, a B-Double has the same in the rear and another 24 tonnes in the front trailer.....

Wes


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## Screwtop (18/2/06)

wessmith said:


> Johnno, you would have needed a bit more kit to handle the semi load. A normal grain semi holds 36 to 38 tonnes, a B-Double has the same in the rear and another 24 tonnes in the front trailer.....
> 
> Wes
> [post="109415"][/post]​




Hope they are not feeding good malt to those bloody pigs !


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## tangent (18/2/06)

i'm pretty sure schooner is still grown here
maybe coops use it as an adjunct?


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## Tony (18/2/06)

tangent said:


> if it's one of those white plastic "brewers spoons", snap it now (save some time) and throw it away.
> 
> Ah yes.....i have a good collection of these............ !
> 
> ...


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