# Bitter orange peel vs powder



## bduza (3/10/20)

I'm going to try a Belgian witbier recipe, which calls for bitter orange peel. The lhbs had this in powdered form, while the YouTube video had small dry slivers. 

In terms of quantity, is it possible I should put less in, due to the powder form being more ready to impart flavours?


----------



## kadmium (3/10/20)

I personally use fresh orange peel and find it gives a much nicer taste but that's just my personal opinion. 

You could put the same weight in, but it may be stronger due to being powdered? Any instructions on the packet?


----------



## MashBasher (3/10/20)

There's a bit of common misunderstanding around this style, IMHO.

@MHB understands the style well, so perhaps he can clear up anything I might not fully get correct.

This style relies on hops, citrus and orange peel. But my take is, not quite in the way you might expect.

Long ago, I read an interview with Pierre Celis who popularized this style in the US. Pierre worked in the brewery at Hoegaarden for a while, and had a few clues on how things were put together.

His take was that hops weren't really used for bitterness, more for their preservative qualities. So hops should be well oxidized, with minimal bittering value. (I'm not sure with what we know now that this actually is correct but?). 

Bitterness was supplied by the orange peel. Curacao orange. These days you can get it as a powder. Back in the 90s I was happy with dried Seville orange peel. Just minimize the pith (the white stuff). So proportion = fark knows what IBU

And the orange flavor? Comes from the Coriander seed that you add as a flavor addition towards the end of the boil.

As I've said before on this forum, this was originally a farmhouse beer and you can throw the kitchen sink at it. Pre-Pierre, it was what ever you wanted it to be. Hoegaarden made a formalized version of it, but even their Wit was variable ( love the Grand Cru with Adam and Eve getting down to it on the label!) so I say, walk your own path.

Discuss.


----------



## kadmium (3/10/20)

I find a FWH bittering addition, go give a nice smooth bitterness but on the low end. I like fresh orange peel as opposed to dried, as I find it adds a nice citrus note that's different to the coriander. And obviously coriander seeds. 

I like it to be highly carbed, with soft pillowy head and not overly bitter. Should be fresh, vibrant and yet have a soft mouth to it. 

Thats my take. I also don't like blue moon but that's me.


----------



## MHB (3/10/20)

Adam and Eve, that would be Forbidden Fruit, and yes please.
As for the rest - pretty much agree even though there appears to be a fair amount of tongue in cheek.
One caution, be very careful with your choice of Coriander, Indian is the best and the seeds should be large and even sized with no (few) damaged or broken. Mill and use in the kettle but keep them out of the fermenter. Alcohol can extract some very unpleasant flavours. Traditionally the peel and coriander were hung in a muslin bag in the kettle for the whole boil and removed before casting the wort.
Most of the Belgian recipes that have much authority use both Bitter Orange and Coriander quite sparingly (I can recommend the recipes compiled by Graham Wheeler and Roger Protz who both had good access to many commercial breweries). Some of the versions popular in the US pile them in and tend to let the spiced dominate the beer.

Raw wheat is a pretty important, both for the head and the soft round flavour, and agree its at its best fizzy, young and vibrant, can be a hell of a refreshing summer quaffed. Well not so much the Forbidden Fruit, at 8.5% quaffing too much of that can pole axe you very quickly.
Hard to get properly aged hops (need to be whole hops and air dried on screens in open sheds for a year or more) generally best to choose a very low alpha hop and use it sparingly, have used Alsace Strisselspalt, low alpha Spalt and Tetnang (all under 2.5% AA) to good effect, probably liked the Strisselspalt best.
A beer with lots of room to play, now that the Curacao Orange is available it's a lot easier to get close to the original flavour, for many years customs wouldn't allow it in, in an attempt to keep citrus canker out of Australia.
Someone is spending the money to have it sterilised on the way in, which is in part why its reasonably expensive, but Oh so worth it!
If you ever see a bottle of Blanche De Namur, its my favorite example of the style
Mark


----------



## MashBasher (3/10/20)




----------



## MashBasher (4/10/20)

bduza said:


> The lhbs dad this in powdered form, while the YouTube video had small dry slivers.
> 
> In terms of quantity, is it possible I should put less in, due to the powder form being more ready to impart flavours?



Hope you found the discussion above useful. Lot of good context there FYI.

Not sure we can answer your question. We don’t have the recipe to review, so not clear on where it’s coming from and what it intends to achieve.

As your question implies, its probably best to back the powder off a bit. You could reasonably expect better utilisation from something powdered vs sliced.

I reckon though, this is one where you might need to make it a couple of times.

Good luck! We’d all love to know what you decide to do and how it turns out.


----------



## MHB (4/10/20)

Fair point, it's always good to try and answer the question rather than drift off topic.
Have used both chipped and powdered bitter orange, from experience I couldn't see much difference in the flavour. but a 1 hour soak in boiling wort is probably going to extract most everything.
Cant guarantee that the same applies to shorter boils, soaks in hot water in a coffee plunger or all the other possible ways to use zest that people have tried.
Fair to suppose as MahsBasher suggests that the flavours are going to be more available in a finer ground product, again depending on contact time and temperature. The orange flavours are very alcohol soluble, Cointreau and Grand Marnier being classic examples of Triple Sec. A bit of solvent extraction (Vodka) could be fun to play with.
Mark


----------



## Coalminer (4/10/20)

MHB said:


> Adam and Eve, that would be Forbidden Fruit, and yes please.
> As for the rest - pretty much agree even though there appears to be a fair amount of tongue in cheek.
> One caution, be very careful with your choice of Coriander, Indian is the best and the seeds should be large and even sized with no (few) damaged or broken. Mill and use in the kettle but keep them out of the fermenter. Alcohol can extract some very unpleasant flavours. Traditionally the peel and coriander were hung in a muslin bag in the kettle for the whole boil and removed before casting the wort.
> Most of the Belgian recipes that have much authority use both Bitter Orange and Coriander quite sparingly (I can recommend the recipes compiled by Graham Wheeler and Roger Protz who both had good access to many commercial breweries). Some of the versions popular in the US pile them in and tend to let the spiced dominate the beer.
> ...


With Wyeast 3944 or 3463?


----------



## MHB (4/10/20)

Mostly 3944, like 3463 in Grand Cru but its a seasonal so you need to be thinking ahead.
Mark


----------



## bduza (4/10/20)

The recipe is based on te Lar-gaarden recipe which was already available on the brewfather database. It's from Larry the beer n bbq videos on YT. I've had to change the hops around a bit. Just a 10L batch so I hope to get something drinkable that I can experiment with and improve over future batches.

Ideally I'd like to end up, in future batches, to have an actually quaffable summer ~4% wit ale. But for now the recipe is at 5% and I don't want to change too much initially. 

If someone has a recipe to share which already gets close, I wouldn't say no  I'll be brewing tomorrow evening. 

Thanks for the advice. I'll bag the coriander in a 4L bunnings paint strainer bag and use the same weight of orange powder, and hope for the best.


----------



## kadmium (4/10/20)

It will be delicious mate. The pursuit of perfection is a noble pursuit.


----------



## MashBasher (4/10/20)

Had a quick look at that recipe.

48% pale
39% Flaked wheat
13% Rolled oats

My own version (which tastes like a fresh Hoegaarden to me, but I’m no beer judge) is

50% Pale 
45% _*Raw*_ wheat
5% rolled oats

I’ve not used flaked wheat, but I have subbed out a portion of raw for various amounts of malted wheat at times (let me tell you, cracking raw wheat is hard work). My observation from doing this was that it changes the mouth feel and head, making it less soft and “pillowy” as someone here said. More like a Hefeweizen than a Wit, I guess I’d say. The raw wheat also contributes significantly to the haziness.

Others may have more direct experience.

Other observations:
- the use of chamomile tea bags is pretty funky. 
- the spice additions are only in the last 5 minutes. I go longer than that, but your comments indicate you will be too.
- the bittering is to 27 IBU. I usually go to 18 and let the orange peel compensate for some.
- I don’t use whirlfloc on this style as it is meant to be cloudy. (Keep it in a keg for six months and it will drop clear though.)

I agree with @kadmium. It will be great, whatever you do. More importantly it will be _yours. _

Have fun.


----------



## bduza (4/10/20)

Ah, so if I put the peel in longer I should reduce the hop bittering. That makes a lot of sense and I'm glad you brought that up!


----------



## Paleman (10/10/20)

kadmium said:


> I personally use fresh orange peel and find it gives a much nicer taste but that's just my personal opinion.
> 
> You could put the same weight in, but it may be stronger due to being powdered? Any instructions on the packet?


How much would you use in a 23 litre brew?


----------



## clarkejw (11/10/20)

I use 1 -1.5 tbs


----------



## Paleman (11/10/20)

clarkejw said:


> I use 1 -1.5 tbs


Of fresh orange peel? I would've thought a lot more. i plan to do a whit down the track and was thinking grate oranges to leave the pith behind, and gather about a cup. Too much?


----------



## clarkejw (11/10/20)

Sorry! Bitter orange powder.


----------



## kadmium (11/10/20)

Paleman said:


> How much would you use in a 23 litre brew?


Hey sorry. I'd go about 40g of fresh orange zest. Skin only, no pith if you can help it. Either use a zester or a peeler and take off slivers of it.


----------



## Paleman (11/10/20)

kadmium said:


> Hey sorry. I'd go about 40g of fresh orange zest. Skin only, no pith if you can help it. Either use a zester or a peeler and take off slivers of it.


Excellent, thanks.


----------



## hoppy2B (11/10/20)

White Rabbit White Ale bottle yeast is easy to culture in my experience. I thought it was a good wit yeast when I tried it. I've tried culturing the Hoegaarden bottle yeast to no avail. I only use 1 stubbly when I culture yeast so it works out to be pretty economic.


----------



## MHB (12/10/20)

Big difference between the amount of fresh zest and dried. I find numbers saying fresh zest is 75-90% water so 40g would be equivalent to somewhere between 4 -10g of dry peel.
Also going to depend on how you want to use it, in Hoegaarden it and the coriander are a grace note, not dominating the flavour. Some brewers want Fanta like levels of Orange - meh personal taste.
I generally find with American recipes half the amount of any herb or spice will be at what for me is the high end, most commercially brewed European examples are very much at the other end.
Wheeler recommends 15g of Saaz and 3g each of bitter orange and coriander in the last 15 minutes of the boil in a 25L batch of Hoegaarden.
The Almanac recommends spices ( 83g Bitter Orange, 170g Coriander/hL) in a bag on a string for 60 minutes of the boil.
Pretty wild range from 0.2g/L to 0.83g/L, the latter probably being more American.
Mark


----------



## raturay (13/10/20)

A bit late but I did an Orange Marmalade Pale Ale. The recipe came from Grainfather’s recipe bank. It used both sweet and bitter orange peel powder. A great beer and improved dramatically around the 5/6week mark.


----------

