# Rookie Mistake - Dry Hopping With Por



## buckerooni (18/8/12)

another shameful post, the penny dropped while reading up here  Looks like I should not be dry hopping with POR! 

I've got 30g in 3 fermenters - any tips on how to remove them (from the tub + 2 x jerrys') after fermenting for 2 days? The 23L tub should be OK but I'm after help on how to get it out of the jerrys!

I bought a big bag of POR and was using it for bittering and dry hopping. I brewed up 62L CSA-style brew and chucked around 30g of POR in a 23L tub and 2x20L jerrys (this is my bulk brew with my mates). I hopped at about 27c and am worried my beer is going to turn out very grassy.

FWIW, recipe attached.


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## beerdrinkingbob (18/8/12)

not trying to be a smart arse but the good news is that it might help cover up the high ferment temp flavours.

Live and learn and see how it turns out.


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## brettprevans (18/8/12)

The rookie mistake is believing one set of opinions. Nothing wrong with dry hopping with POR if you've got a good beer.to sipper it. Look up pride of Mt torrens in my Sig. Great beer with loads of POR in bittering finishing and dry hopping. 

See what u think the beer tastes like. If u like it, leave it alone and drink it.


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## QldKev (18/8/12)

As bob mentioned, I think your POR is the last thing to be worried about, 27c :icon_vomit:


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## buckerooni (18/8/12)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> not trying to be a smart arse but the good news is that it might help cover up the high ferment temp flavours.
> 
> Live and learn and see how it turns out.



_*whoops edit, good pickup but that was a typo, it was around 20c when I hopped*_, now fermenting at 18c  phew!

I had a sip of the fermented brew that we bottled (another 62L) an hour before we made up this brew to a very similar recipe/hopping schedule and it tasted very grassy. I assume it will settle but was unsure to what degree.

As we've just bottled 62L and another 62L fermenting I didn't want 160 longnecks of sparkling alcoholic grass water!


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## beerbog (18/8/12)

Just give it a crack, you might like it. It will undoubtedly leave all that other mega swill shit for dead anyway!


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## mxd (18/8/12)

buckerooni said:


> _*whoops edit, good pickup but that was a typo, it was around 20c when I hopped*_, now fermenting at 18c  phew!



hopefully 20 when you added the yeast 

Not too sure how long it's been fermenting, if you racked it you may need to add more yeast, otherwise as has been said let it ferment out for a couple of weeks, cold crash, bottle, then leave it alone for 3 months.


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## adryargument (18/8/12)

Had a great POR IPA at the taphouse a few months ago - inspired me to brew one up the other week.
Few kegs full and its actually really quite nice - yours might not be that bad!


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## Nick JD (18/8/12)

Pride of Ringworm is great for ridding your colon of intestinal parasites and making your beer taste like the smell of an old wardrobe in an abandoned house.

It's the Old Spice or the Brut of hops. Dirty man hops. 

Clean yourself up and add some Citra, Simcoe and Cascade. Forsooth!


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## bum (18/8/12)

Old Spice/Brut/Rexona. You really do need to broaden your terms of reference to include things that don't make you look like complete twat, Nick.


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## Nick JD (18/8/12)

bum said:


> Old Spice/Brut/Rexona. You really do need to broaden your terms of reference to include things that don't make you look like complete twat, Nick.



Old Spice/Brut/Rexona/*Bum*.


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## hyjak71 (18/8/12)

I use POR a fair bit but only as a bittering hop for stouts, porter mostly and usually in conjuction with 2 or 3 other hop varieties. Also nothing wrong with 27c, depending on what your brewing of course. 
Currently got one sitting at close to 28c but it is a different beast entirely to the OPs brew.


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## brettprevans (18/8/12)

hyjak71 said:


> .... Also nothing wrong with 27c, depending on what your brewing of course.


Unless it's a Belgian or maybe a season then everything is wrong with brewing at that temp. So it's just as well the OP said it was fermented at 20C


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## goomboogo (18/8/12)

There's nothing like brewing a good Season.


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## Jay Cee (18/8/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> Look up pride of Mt torrens in my Sig.



Fair enough, but I don't know if your tastes are shared by many other brewers, you also have bong water in your signature :lol: 

Back on topic, while I have never dry hopped with POR, I have used it for bittering, and a careful touch on the flavour addition, and it's not anywhere near as bad as people make it out to be. Its far from being my 'go-to' hop, but when used judiciously, it's not too bad at all.


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## hoppy2B (18/8/12)

I get floral aroma from POR but not a huge amount relative to how much I use. Flavour wise its very herbal and woody and best utilized in stouts as mentioned above. Fruity type flavoured hops being best for lager style brews.


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## brettprevans (18/8/12)

Jay Cee said:


> Fair enough, but I don't know if your tastes are shared by many other brewers, you also have bong water in your signature :lol:
> 
> Back on topic, while I have never dry hopped with POR, I have used it for bittering, and a careful touch on the flavour addition, and it's not anywhere near as bad as people make it out to be. Its far from being my 'go-to' hop, but when used judiciously, it's not too bad at all.


bongwater USA is a smoked gyle beer full of USA hops. Hence the name. consensus of opinion doesn't create fact my friend.


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## MHB (19/8/12)

I quite like POR; I have never had a grassy beer from dry hoping but I only dry hop at the start of fermentation and am fairly convinced that the Grassy aromas are stripped out very early when there is a lot of CO2 around, dry hoping late really is asking for trouble.

Applauding cittymorgue2s comments worry less about conventional wisdom and more about whats in your glass. Brew it and if you dont like something about the beer look for the cause and find a remedy.
Mark


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## buckerooni (19/8/12)

MHB said:


> I quite like POR; I have never had a grassy beer from dry hoping but I only dry hop at the start of fermentation and am fairly convinced that the “Grassy” aromas are stripped out very early when there is a lot of CO2 around, dry hoping late really is asking for trouble.
> 
> Applauding cittymorgue2s’ comments worry less about conventional wisdom and more about what’s in your glass. Brew it and if you don’t like something about the beer look for the cause and find a remedy.
> Mark



interesting, I dry hopped on brew night, so if your theory holds I should be alright. Sounds like with dry hopping using 'non-traditional' hops for the process (i.e. POR) should be done earlier, while the typical finishing style hops later in the fermentation. Style also comes into this too I suppose, all part of the learninging.


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## jyo (19/8/12)

MHB said:


> I quite like POR; I have never had a grassy beer from dry hoping but I only dry hop at the start of fermentation and am fairly convinced that the Grassy aromas are stripped out very early when there is a lot of CO2 around, dry hoping late really is asking for trouble.



Mark, this is interesting. I have always been under the impression that dry hopping should be towards the end of fermentation, but what you suggest makes sense. 
I usually dry hop 4-5 days before I aim to keg my beer. I _have _had some slight grassiness from dry hopping which will usually clear up after a couple of weeks. 

How do you go if you leave the beer on the cake for a couple of weeks with dry hopping?

Cheers.


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## Spiesy (19/8/12)

MHB said:


> ...dry hoping late really is asking for trouble.



Why is that?

If it's infection you're implying, wouldn't the beer be blanketed in CO2? And as long as the hops have been strerilised, there shouldn't really be an issue should there?

Or is it an increased grassy aroma that you're implying?


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## MHB (20/8/12)

Something I noticed, beer that has gone through a hopback can be very aromatic but I have never found one to be Grassy even when chock full of hops that are notorious for throwing grassy aromas.
So after a bit of experimentation, have found that beers with the hops added early i.e. before the yeast tend not to be grassy, the same beer (a split brew) hopped later reeked of couch.
I believe that the aromatics responsible for grassiness are stripped out during the early vigorous fermentation and that there is plenty of left over hop aroma in the finished beer.
Adding hops late (say past of ferment) almost guarantees some grassy and other vegetal notes or is as in previous post is asking for trouble.

It would be a very rare thing for me to have an Ale on the yeast for more than 7 days if primary isnt over in 3 days I would be worried, Lagers I tend not to be dry hopping and my most brewed lager (Budvar) only gets bittering hops, for mine Lager is all about cleanness and late hops get in the way of where Im interested in taking Lager at this time.
Mark


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## manticle (20/8/12)

MHB said:


> Something I noticed, beer that has gone through a hopback can be very aromatic but I have never found one to be Grassy even when chock full of hops that are notorious for throwing grassy aromas.
> So after a bit of experimentation, have found that beers with the hops added early i.e. before the yeast tend not to be grassy, the same beer (a split brew) hopped later reeked of couch.
> I believe that the aromatics responsible for grassiness are stripped out during the early vigorous fermentation and that there is plenty of left over hop aroma in the finished beer.
> Adding hops late (say past of ferment) almost guarantees some grassy and other vegetal notes or is as in previous post is asking for trouble.
> ...



I dry hop, at gentle rates, in CC after FG and notice neither grass, nor trouble of any kind.

I think grass comes more from wrong/inappropriate hops (only time I noticed it was stupidly dry hopping with saaz), overly long dry hop period (I usually aim for around 2-3 days) and overdoing the amounts (I rarely exceed 1g/L) but I guess everybody's palate and experience is different.


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## bum (20/8/12)

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that there are select styles where some grassiness is appropriate. Sometimes even desirable.

Ignoring that for a moment, though - Mark, would you care to elaborate on this briefly "if primary isnt over in 3 days I would be worried" ?

How worried and why? Based on the vast majority of my reading (and I know my reading (and experience) isn't as extensive as yours, which is why I am seeking clarification) suggests that a fast ferment is nothing but bad news.


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## MHB (20/8/12)

For Ale enough good healthy yeast into a well aerated wort, its all over in 72 Hours.
Three or four more days for the yeast to mop up and drop, out of there in a week, maturation time is still required.
The more I read here on AHB the more I am convinced that there are a lot of brewers way under pitching and with yeast a lot less healthy than they think, have a look at the number of Whats wrong with my beer questions and so (too) often the answer is yeast mismanagement.
The number of times you read hydrate yeast without any qualifiers is appalling, remember I have to solve brewers problems on a daily basis thats really what I do for a living so often the right answer is to just do the basic stuff right, in this case use lots of yeast and dont **** with it unless you really are doing it properly.
Ok rant over probably shouldnt make a dent in a bottle of Lagavulin before posting but seriously the ever longer recommended times to leave beer in the fermenter should be ringing some alarm bells.
I used Saaz in the test (see previous post) and at a lot more than 1g/L and the difference was striking. No discernible grass and a fresh cut lawn, in a test designed to cause grassiness, the absence I think demonstrates the point but please try it for your selves and see what happens.
Mark


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## manticle (21/8/12)

They're all fair points you make. It's just that a fairly blanket statement such as 'dry hop late and you are just asking for trouble' is a bit general and goes against the experience of many.

I would suggest dry hopping appropriately and judiciously gives a good result.


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## bum (21/8/12)

Thanks for the reply, Mark. I'm sure you don't need to underscore your experience in fixing peoples' beer problems. I wouldn't be asking the question at all if I didn't want to understand your point.


MHB said:


> For Ale enough good healthy yeast into a well aerated wort, it's all over in 72 Hours.


I guess where I'm coming from is that lots of advice I've been given (directly and indirectly) is to try to extend that time through temp control. If I'm deliberately seeking to slow down the process (say, 6 days - and assuming good aeration and pitching rates), what do you see as the potential "worries"?

I suppose the fact I only very rarely brew under 1055-1060 might be something influencing my reaction to 3 days being suggested as always being long enough?


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## MHB (21/8/12)

Maybe I should put in a whole paragraph of qualifiers and disclaimers, but the response wasnt really aimed at people not having a problem rather at the large number of people who are. 
I am referring to normal beer 1.040-1.050 and there are a lot of brewers who want to dry hop injudiciously and who are having problems.

I have two major concerns with extending fermentation times
Infection I doubt that anyones brew is a monoculture of just the yeast we want, what protects a beer from unwanted bugs is the conditions at the end of the fermentation process (high alcohol, low oxygen, low residual sugars, lower pH, high pressure once conditioned, hop products...) the quicker you get a brew from the start to the finish the less chance any of the nasties have of taking hold.

Yeast breakdown products eventually yeast will break down and it will affect the flavour of the beer, I know there has been a lot of discussion about this subject recently. Extreme yeast autolysis takes a very long time or very adverse conditions but there are a lot of undesirable flavours I believe can be ascribed to yeast management short of Burnt Rubber that have a negative impact on the beer.

In my experience and based on a lot of reading big healthy pitches and dry hopping early are two important steps to preventing unwanted flavours.
Mark


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## manticle (21/8/12)

MHB said:


> Maybe I should put in a whole paragraph of qualifiers and disclaimers



Only when you make bold statements like 'x is asking for trouble'. You must admit it's pretty definitive when it _doesn't _ come with a qualifier. Thanks for the clarification though.

Your points about healthy yeast are exactly why I'm interested in your aeration kit so I can see the difference for myself.


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## bum (21/8/12)

Cheers, Mark.


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## JakeSm (21/8/12)

MHB said:


> Maybe I should put in a whole paragraph of qualifiers and disclaimers, but the response wasn't really aimed at people not having a problem rather at the large number of people who are.
> I am referring to "normal" beer 1.040-1.050 and there are a lot of brewers who want to dry hop injudiciously and who are having problems.
> 
> I have two major concerns with extending fermentation times
> ...



so what do you think of this, i have just bottled a belgian blonde style ale that took 18 days to reach 3 consistant readings on the hydrometer.
as i was tasting the finished wort, the beer tasted like one of my best and would not change a thing. 
i did dry hop with SAAZ and Hallertau but a the start of fermentation and i agree that this is needed rather than more towards then end.

i am not worried with my beers taking longer to ferment as the longer and colder fermentation is, the better my beer will be after bottle conditiong.

On another Point, it is to my understanding (advice coming from my stepfather Philip Down of Hunter Valley, you may remember him as he used to purchase ingredients off you. He is also a bachelour certified wine maker and studied the behaviours of yeasts for a few years) that Yeast Autolysis occurs when the yeasts are losing nutrients and nitrogen in fermentation and they then go looking for it in the dead or broken down yeast cells. they dont find any, however what they do find is a substance called Cysteen (dont know about the spelling) and as the yeasts begin to consume this, this is what causes the sulphuric (rotten egg) smell/aromas in the wort and if it is not fixed (usually by adding Diamonnium Phosphate, and Severly airating) it may cause infection in the brew and some really bad tastes once bottled, that may not age out. 

Would i be right in saying any of this Mark, by the way you need to send him some more of that aussie gold rum essence as that is my favourite...

cheers jake.


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## MHB (22/8/12)

Ill skip replying so some of your points that are getting too close to a retail question:-
It can be a mistake to try and translate what we know about wine making directly to beer making, from time to time we get some very vehement wine makers trying to tell brewers what is what and as a rule they come unstuck pretty fast. Not in any way questioning the knowledge or skill of the wine making fraternity just how well a lot of what they do applies to brewing.
Just as an aside, Aristotle recommended Owls eggs as a hangover cure, turns out that they are the richest natural source of cysteine, a really important part of the alcohol metabolisation pathway, it is also pretty rare in beer I believe, being a fairly large protein it tends to be condensed and wind up in the kettle trub. Beer yeast tends to find other ways to cause us trouble.
There was a thread here a couple of months ago sighting the head brewer at Budvar, basically at lager temperatures they were getting primary finished in 3-4 Days but at a pitch rate of around 4-5Million cells/mL/point so much faster ferments are possible, maybe a little less than practical for home brewers.
Mark


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## JakeSm (22/8/12)

Thanks mark, i thought i would be rambling on a bit, it makes sense that these things are mixed up between beer and wine making, but being under the advice of a winemaker i sure learnt alot i may not have ever learnt. I should be coming up to your shop soon so i will introduce myself and grab some items for phil.

Cheers jake.


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## Spiesy (22/8/12)

@MHB, your points make a very interesting read indeed.

I've been brewing mainly APA's and American Ambers with US05, at around 18-19 degrees (OG of around 1055-1060)... if my wort is aerated enough, how long do you anticipate a finished ferment should take? They are usually 20-23L batches, one sachet of US05 (or Nottingham) per batch, pitched at around 20-21 degrees.


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## Nick JD (22/8/12)

Dry hopping with PoR is like rooting your nanna when your wife is a supermodel.

Unless you like rooting your nanna. If so, carry on.


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## Brewer_010 (22/8/12)

Nick JD said:


> Dry hopping with PoR is like rooting your nanna when your wife is a supermodel.
> 
> Unless you like rooting your nanna. If so, carry on.



nice thought to leave me with...thanks.

I've got a fair bit of PoR at the moment to make a couple of batches of CSA clone - wont be dry hopping though! Is there a commercial beer around that dry hops with it?


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## Nick JD (22/8/12)

Brewer_010 said:


> Is there a commercial beer around that dry hops with it?



No commercial brewer is that stupid.  

There are very few beers on the market that use it later than 60 minutes. There are far, far better hops out there.


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## jyo (22/8/12)

Thanks for your replies on this, Mark. 

On my next APA I will try adding the dry hops at start of fermentation and see how it goes. 

Cheers.


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## Spiesy (22/8/12)

Nick JD said:


> Dry hopping with PoR is like rooting your nanna when your wife is a supermodel.
> 
> Unless you like rooting your nanna. If so, carry on.


Gold.


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## Batz (22/8/12)

> Just as an aside, Aristotle recommended Owls eggs as a hangover cure, turns out that they are the richest natural source of cysteine, a really important part of the alcohol metabolisation pathway.
> 
> Mark



I perfer them to dry hopping with POR, or Nannas for that matter.


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## stakka82 (22/8/12)

> Dry hopping with PoR is like rooting your nanna when your wife is a supermodel.
> 
> Unless you like rooting your nanna. If so, carry on.



LOL almost sprayed my drink all over my monitor reading that!


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## beerdrinkingbob (22/8/12)

stakka82 said:


> LOL almost sprayed my drink all over my monitor reading that!


That is just wrong....... h34r:


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## pcmfisher (23/8/12)

Brewer_010 said:


> Is there a commercial beer around that dry hops with it?



Is there many commercial beers around that dry hop with anything?


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## 3cl3ctic (23/8/12)

Brewer_010 said:


> Is there a commercial beer around that dry hops with it?



James Squire Hop Thief III was dry hopped with POR flowers..., but that was a seasonal twelve months ago so would be hard to find. Their new release is due soon.


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