# Iodophor Pitfalls



## SJW (4/4/05)

Thanks fellas for putting me onto the Iodophor. I ended up getting it mailorder from ESB. But when i informed my local HBS owner that i was now using Iodophor he started to tell me all the pitfalls of the stuff. And i should add that he does not carry it as a stock item. And why would he, at a mix rate of 1ml per letre Morgans Hydrogen Peroxide @ 30mls per letre is walking out the door.
Anyway he said that:

1- Do not put the stuff anywhere near stainless steel as it is fearsly corrosive. I am not sure why I would need to sanitise my boiler but is this true?

2- That it will over time turn the inside of your plastic fermenter chalky & brittle.

3- And with the over powering smell it would effect the taste of the beer.

Thoughts please.


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## Tony M (4/4/05)

Been using this for a couple of years.
So far my fermenters are good, my kegs have not developed any pinholes and it has not overpowered any of the other myriad of strange tastes in my brews.
Seriously though, I have found it very successful and I dont rinse, just drain any excess for ten minutes. Somewhere buried in this forum is a link to a yank guy that did a reasonably well controlled taste test with iodine and he had to go many times oyer the recommended concentration before his mates could taste it.


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## SJW (4/4/05)

Tony M,
What mix rate do u use and where do u buy it from?


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## quincy (4/4/05)

Here's my 2c bearing in mind I'm no expert - only a user.

1. The dairy industry use it. I would asume they would sanitise vats, milking machines, storage vessels etc etc. Most of which would be SS?
2. I've only been using it for 5 months (about 20 brews) but have had no ill effects on my fermenters.
3. Smell? Can't remember any overpowering smell that would come anywhere near effecting the taste of your beer. The recommended mix is 1ml per litre (as you correctly point out) hardly strong enough to do any damage.

I think you may be right suggesting that his comments may have something to do with the fact he would prefer you to use a product that recommends a higher concentrate (therfore higher turnover for him) and a product he actually sells.

Cheers


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## warrenlw63 (4/4/05)

SJW,

I think that all of the above would only be issues if you used it undiluted. 

Warren -


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## beertime (4/4/05)

I used it when I first started out brewing, I have also heard of the affects it has on stainless however I have not seen it. 

I don't use it anymore because I didn't like the way it stained my plastic fermenters. I use a product called Oxonia which is similar to the morgons product. (I can't remember who makes it. I think its Micro Labs)


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## kungy (4/4/05)

Basically what the HBS owner said is ridiculous! The only downfall is that Undiluted idophor stains so easily, and on surfaces that claim that they are stain resistant and that Idophor can taint plastic fermenters slightly brown. If you follow the concentration levels correctly theres no problems. 

Will

PS About idophor causing fermenters going chalky, the bottle is made with the same plastic as my fermenter! Still looks fine!


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## SJW (4/4/05)

BEERTIME:
Stained your plastic fermenters? Did u dilute it? I have never seen this before. Interesting!


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## Tony M (4/4/05)

SJW,
The minimum dilution I believe is 0.7 ml/l but I only guess and suspect I use it at about 2ml/l. I get Betadine off the net for $15.00 per 500ml bottle. I have no idea of its shelf life but when diluted, its smell and colour disappear after a couple of weeks


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## Wortgames (4/4/05)

The 1L bottle of iodophor that I bought ages ago, and I am still using, states to dilute 1:1000 (that is, a single 10ml capful to 10L). I can understand that a shop owner won't make a fortune out of sanitiser at that rate, but I think your guy is blatantly misleading you and you should kick him.

Iodophor is eminently suitable for brewing purposes, many commercial breweries use it, as does the dairy industry etc. It is non-toxic, food safe, and basically odourless and tasteless in trace quantities. As humans we actually benefit from small quantities of it (hence iodised salt). The fact that he doesn't even sell it speaks volumes, IMO.

Yes it will stain plastics if you leave it in them for long enough, and it isn't really suitable for spraying around the place in an atomiser. I have never heard of it having ill effects on stainless, and given the extensive use of stainless in the dairy and brewing industries I have to doubt it.

I use bleach for soaking fermenters (and bottles etc), brewshield or similar for sanitising them on brewday and for spraying down surfaces, and iodophor for sanitising small items and kegs (and testing for starch conversion, of course...)

Iodophor is great, your shopkeeper isn't.


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## SJW (4/4/05)

Top stuff Wortgames, I would kick him but he is bigger than me. Anyway I will make the change and i 'm sure it will work a treat. Rather than going mailorder from ESB next time i might ask my local chemist to order a 500ml bottle of Betadine (brown bottle 10% w/w).


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## Wortgames (4/4/05)

Damn those big, unkickable shopkeepers <_<


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## PostModern (4/4/05)

I think your HBS-guy might be mistaking iodophor with something completely different. Every point he made is 100% incorrect. Iodophor is the shit! As mentioned above, it's only issue is staining, but the stain is from an indicator that breaks down over time. I once had iodine rings "all over" our white kitchen benchtop that SWMBO killed me for. They faded completely in less than a week.


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## Wortgames (4/4/05)

I once heard a story about a guy who left a bunch of fermenters full of iodophor in the bathroom to sanitise while he and the mrs went away for a few days. When they got back the bathroom walls and ceilings were tinged brown due to evaporation.

The mrs, needless to say, went spare, so mr gets to work scrubbing everything down, and generally pushing the stains around to deepen his troubles. Finally he works out what he needs to do, with bleach and abrasives etc, and manages to do about half a wall per day over the next few days. By the time he gets up to do the fourth wall, the stains have disappeared anyway


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## sosman (4/4/05)

Tony M said:


> The minimum dilution I believe is 0.7 ml/l but I only guess and suspect I use it at about 2ml/l. I get Betadine off the net for $15.00 per 500ml bottle. I have no idea of its shelf life but when diluted, its smell and colour disappear after a couple of weeks
> [post="52604"][/post]​


I have never used Iodophor but I have stacks of Betadine. I got the impression from somewhere that Iodophor was iodine and phosporic acid. Can anyone confirm what is actually in the stuff?


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## PeterS (4/4/05)

"University Test concludes", etc, etc. Have you not heard this before. Is that conclusive evidence that one product is better than another? Afterall, how much do you know of the actual test criteria? How log ago was the test done? What other similar products were tested? etc, etc. Therefore, I believe what that HBS owner told you is correct, at least as far as he is concerned, for he believed what he was told by the salesman and perhaps did not know any better. 

My father in law has been brewing (until his recent passing) since 1944. He told me his trials and tribulations of brewing a many a times. Most of his brewing until recent times were in an open fermenter like a big plastic rubbish bin (so he tells me). He done all his brewing in an open environmen underneat a big queenslander with only partially closed walls. He did not have any choice of sanitation material but he used soap and hot water after every brew to clean everything. (He did tell me that he used bleach lately.) According to him, he never had any of his brew go bad. He did complain however, when the kits started to hit the shelves. He just could not stomick that Brigallow garbage in the 60's.

I could go on and on. In my case, I only srarted brewing last year and I already had to throw one batch down the sinck due to acetobacteria infection (I am told). What am i to do when all the books, friends, HBS owners told me to be very carefull about hygiene and as a newcomer I believe I was rather pedantic about the methods I employed. I did not change my sanitation solutions of choice and I could not see what to change therefore I continued my methods as before. No further infections since. I am brewing under identical conditions as my father in law using current equipment and recommended cleaning and sterilizing solutions. I am deliberately not mentioning a product name for I believe you will continue to use what you got familiar with and the one that you conceive does the job. There are some wild yeasts in the air around you all the time, and if the conditions are there for them, they will get in your brew no matter what you do. Are we going to do all our future brewing in a controlled aseptic laboratory athmosphere? I don't think so. Experiment what suits you and stick with the cheapest product that does the job is what I say..

Cheers,
Keep on Brewin' :chug:


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## Ray_Mills (4/4/05)

Hi
1. Soak all your plastic equipment in bleach.
2. Use iodophor on brew day.

All you infection pproblems will go away. Its that simple.  

Ray


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## Kai (4/4/05)

Peter Shane,

Yes, there's no way you can ever get all of those critturs out of your beer. That's why we call it sanitation and not sterilisation. The aim is to provide as friendly environment for your yeast and as inhospitable a one for everything else as possible, and that's what a good cleaning and sanitation regime does, not to mention good brewing practice.


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## Wortgames (4/4/05)

I think another important factor that is often overlooked is lag time.

It doesn't matter how sanitary your procedures, if your wort is sitting at perfect incubation temps for a day before the yeast get going you're asking for trouble.


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## 4077M*A*S*H (4/4/05)

A Quick search on google produced the Iodophor MSDS


View attachment LA_513_MSDS.pdf


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## PeterS (4/4/05)

Ray_Mills said:


> Hi
> 1. Soak all your plastic equipment in bleach.
> 2. Use iodophor on brew day.
> 
> ...



Ray,

Thanks for your input. I was rather long winded as usual with my previous remarks. Although I did not mention it at the time, I have been using bleach on my Father In Laws recommendation. In addition to that I also used Morgans Sanitizer (Hydrogen Peroxide 2.95%, Silver Ions, stablizer and distilled water)in a spray bottle as needed rather frequently. It might have been my method or overconfidence on the day that led me to carelessness, hence an infection.

I have not seen Iodophor around my vicinity but would like to give it a try now that YOU are recommending it. Is Bentonite that is available from Chemist shops the same?. In other words, what is the active constituents % etc so that I might be able to source it locally (Brisbane).

Cheers,
Keep on Brewin' :beer:


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## Trough Lolly (4/4/05)

SJW,
I just read this thread now...Your HBS is full of $hit - Iodophor is excellent and I have no problems with it. Mind you, I've only been using it for a few years, but it has NEVER been a problem and touch wood, I've never had an infection in 10 years of brewing...
I make a spray bottle full of diluted Iodophor and spray anything that comes into contact with the brew - and I never rinse. I can see how it would turn a fermenter yellow, if you used it undeleted - it's like betadine but at 1000 to 1 dilution its pretty safe to splash on my plastic fermenters - the water in the spray bottle clears up with age so I just squirt another ml of it into the full spray bottle and away I go.

Corrode kegs and turn fermenters brittle - wank! He just wants you to buy something that will keep you coming back more often. Iodophor is your friend - and I never rinse. 

Cheers,
TL


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## MCWB (4/4/05)

sosman said:


> I have never used Iodophor but I have stacks of Betadine. I got the impression from somewhere that Iodophor was iodine and phosporic acid. Can anyone confirm what is actually in the stuff?


The iodophor ESB sells is 12 g/L effective iodine in 252 g/L phosphoric acid; it's made by DeLaval. I may have found an empty container of the stuff outside once.  h34r:


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## jimmysuperlative (4/4/05)

I've used it for about 2years ...never had "beer bug" trouble (touch wood). Mail order through ESB and it's still cheap as chips


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## warrenlw63 (4/4/05)

sosman said:


> I got the impression from somewhere that Iodophor was iodine and phosporic acid. Can anyone confirm what is actually in the stuff?
> [post="52655"][/post]​



Errrr, Iodine and Phosphoric Acid, or was that Phosphoric Acid and Iodine?  

Warren -


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## PeterS (4/4/05)

Just to see the funny side of all this. 

Thanks to 4077 M*A*S*H I read the PDF on the link provided. My question regarding the composition of Iodophore is answered in detail in that link..

Under Section 8 - Personal Protection it says: "Wear safety glasses or goggles and face shield. Also recommended that you wear impervious gloves, clothing and boots.

I knew I should have set up a laboratory.

That just proves that it has the ability to kill a lot of nasties, therefore I am going to give it a go....I wonder where could I buy a chep faceshield.

Cheers,
Keep on Brewin' :chug:


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## Kai (4/4/05)

MSDSs typically overstate safety requirement, doubtless they would say it for most sanitisers and cleaners brewers use. Try reading ones for ethanol one day


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## redbeard (5/4/05)

last time i cut my finger, i dabbed some Iodophor on. sure, it stung a bit but the stain disappeared after a few days & the cut healed up too !


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## Ray_Mills (5/4/05)

Peter
As some have said purchase it through ESB on their website. dont worry about stains as they go away and you dont need to rince. I had a brewhouse bug about 18 months ago and since I have used Iodophor the little buggers have gone.  
http://www.esbeer.com.au/
Ray


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## SJW (5/4/05)

Peter: I am in the same boat as u with the Morgans Sanatise (hydrogen peroxide) and the boys said to try the Iodophor. The Hydrogen Peroxide worked fine and i had no infections but it is just not cost effective. I was not sure of the diff. between Iodophor and Betadine so I just went the ESB mailorder option to be sure. And a 1 litre bottle should do me for years.

Through Lolly: My thoughts exactly. I cant wait for this stuff to turn up as i am doing a Porter on Friday.

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4000.00 gm Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.9 EBC) Grain 63.0 % 
1000.00 gm Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) Grain 15.7 % 
750.00 gm Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBC) Grain 11.8 % 
500.00 gm Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 7.9 % 
100.00 gm Black (Patent) Malt (985.0 EBC) Grain 1.6 % 
65.00 gm Williamette [5.50%] (60 min) Hops 35.8 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale 



:beerbang:


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## warrenlw63 (5/4/05)

SJW said:


> I was not sure of the diff. between Iodophor and Betadine so I just went the ESB mailorder option to be sure. And a 1 litre bottle should do me for years.[post="52745"][/post]​



Betadine is just straight iodine. Idophor is iodine and phosphoric acid.

Warren -


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## jjpalmer (5/4/05)

SJW said:


> Thanks fellas for putting me onto the Iodophor. I ended up getting it mailorder from ESB. But when i informed my local HBS owner that i was now using Iodophor he started to tell me all the pitfalls of the stuff. And i should add that he does not carry it as a stock item. And why would he, at a mix rate of 1ml per letre Morgans Hydrogen Peroxide @ 30mls per letre is walking out the door.
> Anyway he said that:
> 
> 1- Do not put the stuff anywhere near stainless steel as it is fearsly corrosive. I am not sure why I would need to sanitise my boiler but is this true?
> ...



No, it won't corrode Stainless steel.
No, it won't turn your plastic chalky and brittle. (it will turn it yellow)
No, you won't have any off-flavors if you mix it right. (but I am lazy and just pour some in until I have color, so I rinse anyway.)
John
(the metallurgist)


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## johnno (5/4/05)

warrenlw63 said:


> Betadine is just straight iodine. Idophor is iodine and phosphoric acid.
> 
> Warren -
> [post="52749"][/post]​



So if you get some phosphoric acid and Betadine you can make your own iodophor? Get a litre of both and it would last for ages.
I wonder what the breakdown would be to make your own?

cheers
johnno


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## warrenlw63 (5/4/05)

johnno said:


> So if you get some phosphoric acid and Betadine you can make your own iodophor? Get a litre of both and it would last for ages.
> I wonder what the breakdown would be to make your own?
> 
> cheers
> ...



Quite cheap I'd say Johnno. 

That said I pay $6.00 for 250ml from Grain and Grape. I only use 5ml per 5 litre of water per fermenter or keg and just shake it around.

That basically equates to 50 kegs or fermenters. Bear in mind also you can transfer the idophor from one keg to another if you're so inclined.

Good idea to buy in bulk Johnno. OTOH $6 for 250ml is pretty much money for old rope. B) 

Warren -


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## SJW (5/4/05)

Well the Iodophor just turned up at my door. Not bad as i ordered it about 18 hours ago, anyway I don't know what those guys are using that said the stuff stinks. I made up 2 litres with 2mls and there was no smell at all.
And I thought that was the case with the Betadine ie, no phosphoric acid. Anyway this stuff should work a treat, once again thanks for the good advise boys.

STEPHEN


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## jimmysuperlative (5/4/05)

I read on some US brewers site that as long as the made up solution still retains it yellow/amber colour, then it is still active ...	

I have found it can last up to a couple of months if its kept in an airtight container!!


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## Ross (5/4/05)

Well, just to throw the cat amongst the pidgeons...

Spent this morning with an industrial chemist who manufactures & distributes a product called Hy-San in Queensland. This product is the basis of Morgans "Sanitize" but since Hysan sells for $22 a litre or $85 for 5L & should be diluted for brewery use at 1ml per litre it's slightly more economic.
Analysis per litre:
Hysan H2O2 12%
Colloidal Silver <0.030 gms
Hydrous Oxide to 100%

This product is used exstensively by horticutural, farming, dairy, breweries, hospitals etc. Royal Brisbane uses it for sanitising & apparently it's the only effective treament for gangrene. I understand it's the preffered product to Iodine based sanitisers which I hear are the cause of cancer scares in the USA (then what isn't).
The product is totally taste free & totally clear. It does not need to be rinsed & is recommended that you don't - Infact it is used in your tap water as a sterilant at the rate of 0.1ml per litre.
The product can be used over & over & is easily tested to check it's viability.
What Morgans don't tell you on their much watered down/highly priced product, is that for maximum shelf life & efficiency, it should be used with ionised water - This is also sold at 40c a litre if required.
Hy-san can be just sprayed on, or the items rinsed in it, with full sterilisation reached in 7 minutes (something else Morgans ommited in their instructions)

Secondly, for cleaning/sterilisation/odour removal:

Sterri-kleen (Trisodium Orthophosphate). This product is a heavy duty, non sudsing cleanser with sterilising/anti fungal properties. Great for rinsing out your kegs, bottles, fermenters etc & removiing odours. 10 gms in 200ml is all thats required to clean all your used bottles - just a quick shake & poured into the next one. However, being a detergent it must be rinsed off before use.
price $10 per kilo.

Wolfgang is the gentlemans name & he has been brewing beer for over 30 years & has not purchased a commercial drop since he started. 

If you are interested in the product, he can only sell it to you for horticultural purposes, as that is all his license permits

Horticultural Solutions - 86 Duncan Rd, Capalaba. Tel 07 3206 0037.

Needless to say I'm stocked up with both products - Hope this is of interest to a few...


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## pint of lager (5/4/05)

My thinking is that unless we can treat with heat or with mega loads of very toxic chemicals, we cannot kill everything and keeping weakend solutions of iodine lying around may end up breeding a "superbug."

I no longer have a copy of Fix's book, "An Analysis of Brewing Techniques" to quote from, but it went something like, "a concentration of 25ppm iodine in contact with a clean surface for 10 minutes will reduce the bacterial load to 0.01%." This is not word for word, but I am sure this was his correct rates.

So iodine is not 100% effective against 100% of everything, and as everyone has noted, iodine evaporates over time. The iodine is actually bound in a larger molecule, called povidone iodide, it is released from this molecule and does its sanitising, and the remaining molecule can be food for any bacteria that may get a foothold. There is a small chance that some bug will survive, and maybe thrive in a weakened solution. So rather than saving up your old iodine and using it over and over, think about using it for a day, or maybe a week, then ditching it. The stuff is cheap when bought in bulk.

The aim is to have an effective "no rinse" sanitiser.


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## Wortgames (5/4/05)

From Fix:

0.078% (12.5ppm free iodine): D value: 5 minutes
0.156% (25.0ppm free iodine): D value: 3 minutes

The D value is the time taken to reduce microbial level by a factor of ten (ie double the D value gives a reduction factor of 100 and so on).

I agree with POL, saving iodine solution is an act of extreme tightwaddedness.


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## johnno (6/4/05)

SJW said:


> SHEET HOUSE!!
> [post="52980"][/post]​


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## warrenlw63 (6/4/05)

Looks somewhat like my garage. <_< 

Warren -


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## AndrewQLD (6/4/05)

Thanks for the tip Ross,

I have been using sanatize for a year now and have had no infections at all, its easy to use and very effective, I will be giving your contact a call and putting an order in. $22.00 for a 1000lt of sanitser is pretty good value.

Thanks again 
Andrew


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## Goat (6/4/05)

Yes - I really like Sanitize, I use One Shot for general stuff and have a spray bottle of Sanitize just to finish things off like a fermenter just before I drop from the kettle or the kettle tap itself. I did a bit of a search for local (Perth) distributors of Hy-San but had no luck.

My only problem with Sanitize is one of perception; because its clear and has absolutley no smell, there's no sensory indication that there is something in there that is working. Its like the sinus hit that you get from Sodium Met is kind of reassuring (despite the fact it has limited sanitising qualities) or the colour of Pink powder etc. - maybe Idophor might be worth a go.


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## Ross (6/4/05)

Goat said:


> My only problem with Sanitize is one of perception; because its clear and has absolutley no smell, there's no sensory indication that there is something in there that is working. Its like the sinus hit that you get from Sodium Met is kind of reassuring (despite the fact it has limited sanitising qualities) or the colour of Pink powder etc. - maybe Idophor might be worth a go.
> [post="53040"][/post]​



It is easy to check if still working - just pour a small sample on some dirt & it will fizz up if active - I just used in bottles I thought were clean & you could see it actively attacking parts off the bottle where something had been missed.

I tried some of my old Morgans sanitize solution & nothing, so chucked it...

++++

Apparently great for sore throats as well


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## Darren (6/4/05)

it should be used with ionised water - This is also sold at 40c a litre if required.

[/quote]


Is that de-ionised water?


If you are interested in the product, he can only sell it to you for horticultural purposes, as that is all his license permits

Be wary of horticultural grade sanitisers. This is how people DO get sick from homebrew. 
"But I only used a few ml of horticultural grade stuff in the beer"

For the sake of your health, fork out the few extra bucks for food grade certified products, Please!


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## Goat (6/4/05)

hmm, thanks Ross. My paranoia deepens....

I use the Morgans variety and I'm yet to notice any activity at all when I use it.


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## PostModern (6/4/05)

You guys are like family, so I can tell you that I once ridded myelf of halitosis caused by a decayed tooth by rinsing in iodophor solution. Still haven't had the tooth fixed....


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## SJW (6/4/05)

Is there anything you cant do with this stuuf, Iodophor.


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## Ross (6/4/05)

Darren said:


> it should be used with ionised water - This is also sold at 40c a litre if required.




Is that de-ionised water?


If you are interested in the product, he can only sell it to you for horticultural purposes, as that is all his license permits

Be wary of horticultural grade sanitisers. This is how people DO get sick from homebrew. 
"But I only used a few ml of horticultural grade stuff in the beer"

For the sake of your health, fork out the few extra bucks for food grade certified products, Please!
[post="53044"][/post]​[/quote]

1) Sorry - my knowledge of this is pretty new & I did mean de-ionised.
2) I agree you should be wary of horticultural grade sanitisers - But this is NOT horticutural grade, it is food grade - The seller is only licensed to sell horticutural grade as I explained. The product is sold to the Royal Brisbane hospital, but not for use on their plants....
He will happily show you the saftey data sheets & full reports on the product if you are in any doubt...


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## Darren (6/4/05)

Hi Ross,
I am not doubting you but I am doubting him. If he is selling agricultural grade sanitiser to a hospital I suspect the next time you visit him he will be in jail.
There are strict standards that are applied to anything used in a hospital that comes into contact with patients/food.
My guess is he is saying that "his" product is exactly the same as "x's" product but they have food grade certification.
Chances are he dilutes his concentrated stocks of the stuff in his "shed". Only God knows what else he stores/dilutes in that same shed.
As I said before, please stear clear of horticultural "anything" when brewing.

You see these posts of people in India who die from consuming "homebrew" filled with tanning compounds and methanol!
You can bet your life that someone told them it was safe!
Why else would you drink it?

It just occured to me that your post could be one of those "furry trolls." I hope that it isn't because food grade certification is actually extremely important.

cheers
Darren


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## Ross (6/4/05)

Darren said:


> It just occured to me that your post could be one of those "furry trolls." I hope that it isn't because food grade certification is actually extremely important.
> 
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="53098"][/post]​



Would you please explain to me what a "furry troll" is ???


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## Darren (6/4/05)

Would you please explain to me what a "furry troll" is ???
[post="53125"][/post]​[/quote]

Howdy Ross,
It is a post that is designed purely to get many responses.


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## PeterS (6/4/05)

Howdy Ross,
It is a post that is designed purely to get many responses.
[post="53128"][/post]​[/quote]

Darren.

I think you are hitting below the belt a bit don't you.? Ross did not start this thread. Just because he wished to share his discovery that might be helpfull to others does not make him a troll. As to his discovery, it is your choice to either accept it or forget it. On the other hand your warning as to its use is fair enough and we shall evaluate it accordingly.

Cheers,
Keep on brewing' :beer:


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## Ross (6/4/05)

Darren,

I am fairly new to this site, but I don't think I could ever have been accused of posting topics "for effect".

I respect this forum & put a lot of care & research into anything I post. I spent the whole morning at the Company asking questions & reading his extensive collection of product data safety sheets etc.

I listed the details of the Company involved with the contact name & would suggest you maybe contact him direct before passing judgement. 

Horticultural Solutions - Wolfgang Strube B.Sc.Agr.(Hort) 07 3206 0037.

We are purely talking a sanitiser here - not medication for your kids.

Just about every homebrew store packages their own products - sanitisers, essences, brew boosters etc... Even ESB's Idophor looks like it's been put together by them (looking at the bottles), if I'm not mistaken? 

Anyway, the post was purely put there, as an informative product option for people to consider, whether purchased from this Company or another. Personally I am very happy with the product & IMHO it is a better option than Idophor. 

Cheers... Ross


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## sosman (6/4/05)

MCWB said:


> sosman said:
> 
> 
> > I have never used Iodophor but I have stacks of Betadine. I got the impression from somewhere that Iodophor was iodine and phosporic acid. Can anyone confirm what is actually in the stuff?
> ...



I take it that is 252mg/L phosphoric acid. 2g in 1L gives me about pH 2. Actually, I am forgetting that you dilute the stuff afterwards.


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## sosman (6/4/05)

There's a bit of a disconnect for me re hydrogen peroxide. My mum always used to use it as a mouthwash and I always thought it was a bacteriocide and its use in sanitizers seems to back that up.

Sodium percarbonate can release up to 15% H2O2 (IIRC) into solution yet it is not listed as a sanitizer. I also found some links on pubmed which listed H2O2 as a fungicide and mildly bacteriocidal.

If there are any people on the board qualified to straighten me out, please do so.


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## MCWB (7/4/05)

sosman said:


> I take it that is 252mg/L phosphoric acid.


Nope, no typo sos. It may be the DeLaval iodophor referred to in this link, but I'm not sure, as DeLaval make a heap of different iodophor-based sanitisers.


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## Darren (7/4/05)

Ross,
I am not taking a dig at your or your supplier. I am concerned though that you are looking to use a sanitiser which for what ever reason is unable to be labelled and sold as food grade.

I respect this forum & put a lot of care & research into anything I post. I spent the whole morning at the Company asking questions & reading his extensive collection of product data safety sheets etc.

Can you find out from him why he cannot sell food grade? Again I will be suprised if he is legally able to sell horticultural grade sanitiser to be used in food preparation areas of a hospital

I listed the details of the Company involved with the contact name & would suggest you maybe contact him direct before passing judgement. 

Horticultural Solutions - Wolfgang Strube B.Sc.Agr.(Hort) 07 3206 0037.

We are purely talking a sanitiser here - not medication for your kids.

Ross, What do you think they are using it for in the hospital? Sanitising bed pans maybe or liquid waste before it goes down the drain.
If it is being used in food grade situations, then YES, it is being fed to your kids.


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## johnno (7/4/05)

Any chemists,scientists etc on here that would know how much Phosphoric acid and betadine you would need to mix up to make your own Iodophor type sanitiser?

cheers
johnno


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## Ross (7/4/05)

Darren,

I think you are getting confused on an issue here - 

I never said that HE was supplying the RBH - What I said was that the RBH use this product, obviously (I would have thought) the RBH would need to buy through a food grade acreditted supplier. Likewise Morgans, I'm sure, buy through another supplier. I will ask him out of interest though, next time I speak to him.
Idophor has been discussed at length as used by the dairy industry etc; I doubt they are buying it from ESB for instance.

I apologise to anyone I confused on this issue. I visited the Company & satisfied myself competely to the quality of the product & simply passed on my findings. I made a point of declaring his horticultural status as i beleived, like you, that this was important.

Your warning re his licensing status was a valid one, with which I whole heartedly agree with....


let's get back to brewing... :beer:


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## johnno (7/4/05)

SJW said:


> Anyway thats why I ended up buying the stuff from ESB, and just to add, If you are still looking to save money on a sanatiser after paying $25 for 1 litre of Iodophor that will make up 1000 litres I think u may need to be looking for another hobbie.
> [post="53218"][/post]​



While I dont mind supporting Homebrew shops, in the end they are looking out for Number One. Which is their business. I'm sure they are not doing it just for the love of it .
On the other hand if I can pay $25 and make up 2000 litres of sanitiser, then more power to me.
I'm always looking for ways to save money, nothing more nothing less. 
And if I get a better deal than at a HBS I will take it.
More money in my pocket always makes me feel better.

cheers
johnno


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## Ross (7/4/05)

Goat said:


> hmm, thanks Ross. My paranoia deepens....
> 
> I use the Morgans variety and I'm yet to notice any activity at all when I use it.
> [post="53055"][/post]​




Goat,

Don't panic, at the very low dilution of the Morgans product, visible signs are not reliable. 

With 1000L for $22 - I intend to discard after a few uses anyway...


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## shmick (18/4/05)

Anybody been supplied watered-down Iodophor from their HBS?

Went to buy some on the w/e and was told I would have to wait while they mixed it up :blink: 

They then tried to flog me an overpriced tub of Sodium Met instead <_< .

They finally mixed the Iodophor but wouldn't (couldn't) tell me what strength it was, but said to use 10ml per litre.
I mentioned the usual strength should be used at 1ml per litre and was told:

"YOU can't buy it at that strength, you're not allowed - only home brew shops can buy it at that strength!"

$8 for 250ml bottle of the 10:1 diluted stuff I feel ripped-off 10:1 also. :angry: 

No idea what they diluted it with either - tap water?

Might dump the stuff and mail order ESB.

LHBS lost another customer.


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## SJW (18/4/05)

Sounds like a good idea SHMICK. After reading the attachment from an ealier post on this thread they say that Iodophor starts to break down once diluted. I don't know what the pre diluted concentration is but i can say it's as black/blood red as SIN. Once diluted the yellow/orange tinge only lasts about 12 to 24 hours while it is active. Do what I did and go the mail order from ESB and brush that HBS.


stephen


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## Steve Lacey (18/4/05)

SJW said:


> Do what I did and go the mail order from ESB and brush that HBS[post="55056"][/post]​



To be honest, I'd be thinking of going one step further than just brushing the HBS. I'd be demanding to know exactly what product they are getting and exactly what they are doing to it and then determining whether that is legal/ethical. And if they are not forthcoming with the information, I'd be reporting them to someone...Let's not beat around the bush here. If they are doing what you suspect they re doing it is, a) ripping off consumers, b) possibly illegal, and c) possibly destroying the efficacy of the product, making it an even bigger rort. No retailer should be allowed to get away with things like that, regardless of what industry it is. It is bad for the hobby and bad for the home brew industry. But note, my little rant here requires getting the facts completely straight first, perhaps also confronting the shop with those facts to give 'em an opportunity to cease and desist.

Steve


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## Ross (18/4/05)

So is ESB packaging any of it's own goods? Certainly looks like it to me!!
As far as I've seen, every homebrew store I've visited is repacking or mixing their own lines of product, whether it be hops, sanitisers, wood chips, brew enhancers essences, chemicals for water adjustments etc... & I doubt many hold the necessary licences (where required) to be doing this legally by the letter of the law - in much the same way that they are selling "water purifiers" but not stills!!! This is business & the owners take risks, but are invaribly trying to give the customer what he wants. - We the consumer have the ultimate say with our wallets - If you are not happy with the product supplied, then buy elsewhere. 
However, if you believe the product being sold is dangerous or being misrepresented, then by all means be encouraged to act & report the offenders...


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## johnno (18/4/05)

I still want to know how much Phosphoric acid and betadine you need to mix to make your own Iodophor clone.
Any scientists , mad or other, on the site?

cheers
johnno


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## PostModern (18/4/05)

shmick said:


> <snip>
> 
> They finally mixed the Iodophor but wouldn't (couldn't) tell me what strength it was, but said to use 10ml per litre.
> I mentioned the usual strength should be used at 1ml per litre...
> ...



He was selling you something for use at 10ml/L for $8 but he told you the recommended dilution and the price. Dodgy but on the white side of the grey line, I reckon. (I am not a lawyer) He's just selling you something for 10 times what others sell it for, but he told you what the working strength was, he didn't represent it as being the same strength as other HBS's. The mathematics was up to you before you handed over the cash. If your custom was only worth $8 to him, I think you'd be better off shopping elsewhere.


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## shmick (19/4/05)

[post="55042"][/post]​[/quote]

He was selling you something for use at 10ml/L for $8 but he told you the recommended dilution and the price. Dodgy but on the white side of the grey line, I reckon. (I am not a lawyer) He's just selling you something for 10 times what others sell it for, but he told you what the working strength was, he didn't represent it as being the same strength as other HBS's. The mathematics was up to you before you handed over the cash. If your custom was only worth $8 to him, I think you'd be better off shopping elsewhere.
[post="55194"][/post]​[/quote]

I pretty much hold the same view PM, otherwise I would have taken it a lot further.
I don't mind paying a 'bit' extra to support local businesses in order to promote our craft - it can only help in the long run. However it can be frustrating when you are treated like you are completely ignorant and misinformed - especially by somebody who does not know themselves.

BTW this HBS also sell the product mail order without any indication of strength.
I would have been mighty PO'd if I had bought it that way. B)


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## glenos (7/1/07)

I have just found and read this topic, that was an effort for a Sunday morning.
*Iodine solutions:*


> I still want to know how much Phosphoric acid and betadine you need to mix to make your own Iodophor clone.
> Any scientists , mad or other, on the site?


Yes me, a Chemist not a pharmacist, I have a 15mL bottle of Amcal antiseptic liquid (Iodine Solution, Betadine) on my desk and it is 1% (10g/L) available iodine, fantastic stuff for minor cuts, sore apply direct to skin, and yes it is dark brown. The colour is form the iodine in solution, which breaks down when exposed to light.

Based on the MSDS attached about 50 posts ago, you would need:
40g of Phosphoric Acid and 35g of this iodine solution stuff made uoto 1L in de-ionised water. The 3.5g of iodine soln is because it is 10% povidne iodine which is equivalent to 1% iodine and the MSDS states 0.35% in final solution. 

The link to the Vet chemicals site is a different recipe and t you would need 120g of iodine in solution (this would require 1200ml of Iodine solution) and 252g of phosphoric acid to 1 L, this is approx 40x the strength of the MSDS, this would probably be taken care of in the dilution instructions. You can not make this using the iodine solution I have as there is too much iodine required, ie more then the final volume. 
** the final volume is 1L, not 1L plus the other ingredients.

The iodine solution was $10 for 15mL and I don't know where you would get phosphoric acid from. I have some but it is for removing rust from steel, and I would want it in my fermenter. I have access to analytical grade ortho-phosphoric acid, I use it everyday at work. I also have access to Iodine and potassium iodide which I can make iodine solutions out of, _home made iodophor here I come._

BTW, to dissolve iodine into water you need to dissolve some KI first as the Iodide ions assist in dissolving the Iodine, otherwise Iodine is practically insoluble in water.

EDIT - concertration calcs were wrong


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## glenos (7/1/07)

*Hydrogen peroxide solution:*
I haven't used this stuff much, but I know a little bit about it.

Everytime I have seen/used it in a lab it was stored in the fridge, the reason is:
2.H2O2 = 2H2O + O2 or 2 hydrogen peroxide molecules dissociates to water and oxygen and the lower temperature slows this down.

it is a very powerful oxidiser, I remember using it at uni and 'burning' my skin with it. My skin went white, like paper and peel off a few days later, I was too stupid to wear gloves, fortunately it was only my finger tips. I have also seen it used in aseptic packaging in UHT milk processing lines, it breaks down almost instantly, leaving water.

One final comment on both of these sanitisers is, they are quite aggressive chemicals and will kill the bugs for you, used correctly they are quite safe. 

I would not buy them in large quantities for a couple of reasons, 
1. they go off and the saving of buying in bulk will soon be outweighed if your sanitiser is little more then a water dissolved in water solution.
2. large quantities of chemicals and the home environment do not mix. a big splash in the eye or down the guts would not be a fun experience.


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## PostModern (7/1/07)

glenos said:


> 2. large quantities of chemicals and the home environment do not mix. a big splash in the eye or down the guts would not be a fun experience.



Reminds me of the poem:

Little Willie was a chemist
But now Willie is no more
For what he thought was H2O
Was H2SO4

Good advice to keep dangerous chemicals out of the house. Anyone after 4 litres of HCl? Scotty?


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## bigfridge (7/1/07)

PostModern said:


> Reminds me of the poem:
> 
> Little Willie was a chemist
> But now Willie is no more
> ...



PoMo,

Another old saying is ......

"Scotty and Dangerous chemicals don't mix" - well no too safely anyway


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## Keifer (7/1/07)

I use iodophor at 1ml to 1litre in a spray bottle all the time. should i not be getting it on my skin (i spray my hands to reduce infection possibility) or breathing in small amounts of spray in the air (accidentally) ?

How dangerous is properly diluted iodophor to humans?


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## Darren (7/1/07)

PostModern said:


> Reminds me of the poem:
> 
> Little Willie was a chemist
> But now Willie is no more
> ...




OK, spill the beans about the HCl, Post modern!!!.

H202 will be nastier quicker. (I only know this as I have spilled both HCl and H202 on my bare hands). The acid i walked/ran to a tap (after wiping most of it off) and washed my hands. To my surprise nothing happened. 

When ever I have spilled H202 on my hands the area has gone instantly white (as glenos posted earlier)

Be careful out there. The more concentrated a chemical is the more likely it will cause damage to you or your loved ones.

cheers

Darren

Oh yeah, I thought iodophore was iodine linked to a polymer of some sort, rather than a mixture of potassium iodide. Helps with stability of the product if I remember correctly?? I have some vague recollections also, that mixing iodine solutions (and allowing to dry) is explosive :huh: 

cheers

Darren


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## Jim_Levet (7/1/07)

Iodophor is so "Old School".
I hope you rinse thoroughly!
James


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## glenos (7/1/07)

> I use iodophor at 1ml to 1litre in a spray bottle all the time. should i not be getting it on my skin (i spray my hands to reduce infection possibility) or breathing in small amounts of spray in the air (accidentally) ?
> 
> How dangerous is properly diluted iodophor to humans?


It's fine, I have been putting the 1% iodine solution directly onto my skin, the only warning is not to use it if you are sensitive to iodine.

At 1:1000 dilution it would be barely noticable.

Iodophor is a mixture of iodine solution and phosphoric acid.

Povidone is iodine and something else, I have no idea what, it may be a longer chain compound.

The KI I2 solution is the "old school" way of making an iodine solution, povidone is used when applying to cuts as it doesn't sting, I think an KI solution would be a bit sharp.


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## danbeer (7/1/07)

> Oh yeah, I thought iodophore was iodine linked to a polymer of some sort, rather than a mixture of potassium iodide. Helps with stability of the product if I remember correctly?? I have some vague recollections also, that mixing iodine solutions (and allowing to dry) is explosive :huh:
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Perhaps you're thinking of ammonia + iodine?

Produces ammonia tri-iodite. Can explode just from looking at it the wrong way. Best avoided.


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## Darren (7/1/07)

danbeer said:


> Perhaps you're thinking of ammonia + iodine?
> 
> Produces ammonia tri-iodite. Can explode just from looking at it the wrong way. Best avoided.




Hey Dan,

I dont remember ammonia being added. Ammonia has a very distictive smell to it. It was just two different iodones.

The crystals were explosive. Not a big bang individually though. Enough to crackle as you would roll a wheel of a lab chair over it. Certainly a whole tray of dried stuff is not the sort of thing you want lying around.

Yeah, I would not mix iodine and ammonia. That is asking for instant trouble  

Darren


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## Tony (7/1/07)

ok change of subjest from the fighting 

I use the stuff happily. I have always bought it from ESB in sydney but i have recently........... and sadly found out they are closed down.

where can i get my nice un diluted iodophur from now ????????????

cheers


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## shonky (7/1/07)

Tony, try Gerard from ND brewing.



No affiliations etc. (how about a discount Gerard?!)


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## Gerard_M (7/1/07)

Tony said:


> where can i get my nice un diluted iodophur from now ????????????
> cheers



Actually I hadn't thought of diluting it, and now that I give it some thought, with the drought & water restrictions it would probably work out to expensive to add the water to it! :blink: 
Bummer :angry: 

I have had a customer admit to using it on a cut. He said it didn't get infected and healed very well, but the iodophor hurt more than the initial cut did.
Cheers
Gerard

Oh & Shonky I will give you an extra vial of WLP810 for your trouble.


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## PostModern (8/1/07)

Darren said:


> OK, spill the beans about the HCl, Post modern!!!.



No interesting story to tell. I just recently painted the concrete floor inside my house (living room, entryway and landing) a lovely shade of purple (Scotty now calls my place "Chez Purple Floor"). I acid etched it, as one does. I thought there was better value buying chemicals in bulk, so I now have 4 litres of 5 from the bottle left over and don't like leaving it around the place, as I have 3 primary school aged boys. I overheard the kids hatching a plot to "dissolve the school", so there is even more imperative to get the stuff out of here  As Scotty is now inspired to paint his brewery floor purple, I thought he might save himself the trip to Bunnings for some dangerous chemicals.



bigfridge said:


> PoMo,
> 
> Another old saying is ......
> 
> "Scotty and Dangerous chemicals don't mix" - well no too safely anyway



I've heard that... It was him the sparked the idea of cleaning my fermenters in caustic. Luckily I did it _un_supervised by him. 

If there is a brewing application for concentrated hydrochloric acid I'm sure Scotty, if anyone, will find it.



Gerard_M said:


> I have had a customer admit to using it on a cut. He said it didn't get infected and healed very well, but the iodophor hurt more than the initial cut did.



To get back on topic of iodophor... I once had a brewing mis-hap that led to a bleeding hand. Cut my hand on the tear-off blade of the cling wrap, I believe. There was nothing about but my iodophor squirt bottle (diluted). I too can testify that there were no harmful effects apart from the damn awful sting of the iodine.


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## Jye (29/3/07)

The last 2 Basic Brewing podcasts have been on sanitation and Murl Landman from National Chemicals was on talking about iodophor. Lot of useful info which included that you can not store iodophor once it has been diluted (1ml per L) for example in a spray bottle <_< It will only have a shelf life of about 60hrs.

Not sure if this has already been mentioned.


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## tangent (29/3/07)

2 of the most informative podcasts i've heard in a while.
i was thinking about your spraybottle!


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## Darren (29/3/07)

Didn't hear the podcast. Did they say that if there is colour in the diluted iodophor then it will still do its job, albeit slower than is recommended on the bottle?

cheers

Darren


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## Jye (29/3/07)

Darren said:


> Didn't hear the podcast. Did they say that if there is colour in the diluted iodophor then it will still do its job, albeit slower than is recommended on the bottle?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



I cant remember, Im going to listen to them both again since they were very informative. The second one has Charlie Talley from Five Star Chemicals and talks about bleach for half of the show before finally getting to Star San (which I believe is phos acid based).


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## devo (29/3/07)

Idophor rocks, best thing since sliced bread. :beerbang:


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## Darren (29/3/07)

Jye said:


> I cant remember, Im going to listen to them both again since they were very informative. The second one has Charlie Talley from Five Star Chemicals and talks about bleach for half of the show before finally getting to Star San (which I believe is phos acid based).




I hope both these guys disclosed the vested interests (if they have any) in the products they are talking about.

cheers

Darren


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## Kingy (29/3/07)

funny i came across this topic i put a brew down last friday and refilled my iodpher spray bottle.

this arvo i went to use it and the bottle wouldnt spray,so i got a bit heavy handed with it wondering why and iodopher got into a cut on my hand through a bandaid,and i tell u what!!!! ABSOLUTE INSTANT STINGING.... 

seems ok now tho,might dab some on all my injurys from now on. Then again, maybe not!


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## Brewtus (29/3/07)

I used to gargle the stuff more concentrated than I use for sanitizing to get rid of throat infections on Doctors orders. Didn't do me any harm.


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## milpod (30/3/07)

Shouldn't we be rotating our sanitizers anyway.If we all use one product,isn't the same as an unfinished anti biotic script?


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## Screwtop (30/3/07)

As with all of these products I believe the phosphoric acid component will remain viable over long storage periods but the Iodine has a short shelf life especially in strong light. Why Tincture of Iodine (2% iodine, 2.4% sodium iodide and alcohol) is sold in dark brown bottles, iodine is more stable mixed with higher levels of alcohol.



> As for the "shelf life" of B-T-F Iodophor, Dr. Landman, General Manager of "National Chemicals Inc." of Winona, MN. and is a Ph.D. in Medical Microbiology, relates a story about one of their distributors who had found a case of the product that had been forgotten for 5 years and returned it to the manufacturer. NCI tested the 5-year-old product and found that it still met standards. This was, of course, undiluted iodophor that had been well packaged and protected from exposure to light, air etc. In either case, it is far more stable than chlorine, which begins to degrade immediately upon being manufactured. The color of the iodophor solution is a rough guide to it's effectiveness as a sanitizer. If the solution still has its amber color, it is most likely still active. It is recommended that a fresh solution should be mixed when the color fades or after 12 hours.
> 
> Please remember, Iodophor is not a cleaning agent. In fact, introducing dirty items to the Iodophor solution will degrade its sanitizing properties rapidly. Items to be sanitized must be thoroughly cleaned before hand.



Find more info Here


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## microbe (19/7/07)

I have recently started using Iodophor after years of misguided Sodium Met use. I believe I'm using it at the correct strength as stated on the bottle (1mL in 1L or 1:1000) but the amber colour is not very strong at all. Kind of like a very pale ginger beer. Does that seem right to anyone else that uses it? or should the colour be more distinct?

cheers,

microbe


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## Stuster (19/7/07)

No that sounds about right, microbe. From listening to those podcasts mentioned earlier in the thread, it's best to keep it at that strength as well. It's very easy to add a bit more thinking it'll work better  but then it's not no-rinse.


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## Andyd (19/7/07)

Yep - Murl said that most brewers use too strong a solution.

With regard to shelf life, Iodophore basically degrates as it works on organic matter and due to exposure to light. It's particularly susceptible when diluted.

A test you could do (which I haven't) would be to take some wort and put it into Petri dishes sanitised with iodophor of varying ages. I might try this one when I get back from holidays...

Andy


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