# Efficiency



## UsernameTaken (11/7/17)

I have always felt my BIAB BH efficiency is very low in the 50's when you hear everyone talking about 70's and 80's!

But wonder if I am calculating it correctly?

For example, using this calculator - https://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/

- I mash 5kg of Pilsner in 28 litres of water 
- I loose 2L to the grain 
- I loose 2L to the boil 
- I finish with a post boil gravity of 1.050 in 24 litres of wort

Then i transfer the 1.050 wort to a 17 litre cube.

- If I calculate my efficiency as 24 litres of 1.050 I get 77% Kettle Ending Efficiency
- If I calculate my efficiency as 17 litres of 1.050 I get 55% Brew House Efficiency

Which is the one everyone is talking about when they specify their efficiency?


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## tj2204 (11/7/17)

You're either mashing in too much water or using a cube that's too small if you're only transferring 17 of 24 litres finished wort.

BH efficiency is the 55% - if you're throwing out 7 litres you're essentially discarding that additional 22% efficiency.


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## damoninja (11/7/17)

Discarding 7 litres? Jeez  brew smaller or package bigger


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## UsernameTaken (11/7/17)

These numbers were just to illustrate my issue. 

But I do generally aim to leave 5 litres behind in my electric urn as thats what sits below the tap and I do not want to tilt the urn as it would collect the crap at the bottom?


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## tj2204 (11/7/17)

That's way too much to leave behind. I use an urn too and have fitted a 90° elbow with a barb on the end to act as a pickup tube to collect wort below the tap.


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## UsernameTaken (11/7/17)

So how much do you leave behind?


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## damoninja (11/7/17)

I would leave a few litres behind from a 50L batch, maybe 5L. 

No harm in a little trub getting in your FV...


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## MHB (11/7/17)

Short answer is "Enough" anything above the trub!
You're right to leave the trub in the kettle, that's where it belongs (in spite of what some will say), in commercial design 5-10% of the kettle volume would be expected, so for an end of boil volume 24L 10% would be 2.4L, 5% would be 1.2L. Somewhere in that range would be a good place to start. That gives you a knockout of 21.6-22.8L, better than you are getting and its free.
A pickup tube as above, or even syphoning or tilting the kettle (carefully) would all be possible, I used a bent 1/2" SS tube for years, the tube rested on the bottom and turned up so it wasn't pulling trub in... lots of options.
Mark


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## MHB (11/7/17)

Knew it wouldn't take long, lots of known reasons for leaving the trub in the kettle (trub not wort), it isn't fermentable it brings nothing good to your beer - leave it in the kettle!
Mark


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## tj2204 (11/7/17)

Agree with MHB. I'd leave behind less than 2 litres, my beersmith profile is set to 2l loss to trub and chiller.


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (11/7/17)

I run my trub through a coffe filter over a couple of days, boil to sterilize cool and add to the fermenter, freeze and use for the stater for the next brew or with wheat beers I can usually save and freeze 3 litres which is enough to prime a 22 litre brew.


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## UsernameTaken (11/7/17)

Thanks guys, very helpful!

Cheers,
UNT


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## nosco (11/7/17)

I thought trub was not calculated into the batch size in software? So then its not calculated into efficiency?


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## Coodgee (11/7/17)

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> I run my trub through a coffe filter over a couple of days, boil to sterilize cool and add to the fermenter, freeze and use for the stater for the next brew or with wheat beers I can usually save and freeze 3 litres which is enough to prime a 22 litre brew.



wow that's frugal!


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (11/7/17)

Coodgee said:


> wow that's frugal!


Thanks, I am a tight arse Pome


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## barabool (15/7/17)

Bit confused and happy to be corrected but if you have '77% Kettle Ending Efficiency' then it doesn't matter how much you stick in your cube. It matters how much you have in your kettle. If your calculations are all correct and count in all variable factors - then the viable amount of wort you flush away doesn't affect your 77% BH efficiency.
If you threw away all but 1lt - that wort would still be 77% BH efficiency.


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## Danscraftbeer (15/7/17)

I calculate on the batch size. So a 40lt batch left with 4lt trub in the kettle. That doesn't get counted as 44lt kettle volume. Calculate efficiency as 40lt batch size Net volume.
I am frugal with my labored efforts so I will bottle that drained trub (leaving hop flowers behind etc) in 2 - 3lt apple juice bottles and cold crash it for say a week.
4lt trub gets me ~1.6 to 1.8lt very clear wort. I then do the home canning thing and pressure cook/can that wort. Frugal yep! Use them as starter wort ready to go. Marvel at how crystal clear it is in the jar etc.
Cant help myself. You go to all that trouble and effort to design/ customize your own malt it seems worthy of keeping rather than chucking it. When I get enough buildup of stored canned wort I have then made Bitsa/Mongrel mix brew that was superb. It doesn't seem like extra labor to me more like added efficiency of labor. No fussing with boiling starter worts in flasks anymore etc. Canned wort ready to go.
$0.02


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## MHB (15/7/17)

I think we need a new rule - Anyone wanting to discuss "Efficiency" must read "Understanding Efficiency" in Braukaiser, then clearly define which efficiency they are talking about!
I like Kai's work, shame he has to make it all sound so complicated because its in silly units, metric makes brewmaths so much less confusing.
Mark


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## manticle (15/7/17)

MHB said:


> Knew it wouldn't take long, lots of known reasons for leaving the trub in the kettle (trub not wort), it isn't fermentable it brings nothing good to your beer - leave it in the kettle!
> Mark



You obviously haven't been reading brulosophy.

Check out this exbeeriment: http//www.brulosophy.com/brewertakesshitinkettleandonlyoneintwelvetastersnotice/freebeer


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## MHB (15/7/17)

Obviously not, nor planning on starting any time soon.
Get plenty of "baseless" opinions offered without going out of my way to find more.
Mark


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## manticle (15/7/17)

I make joke.

Funny joke.


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## Danscraftbeer (15/7/17)

404 THATS AN ERROR. I giggled.
Its too reliant on reliable internet manticle. I Think I get it but the new forum change en all the internet you get messages like that that all the time. Which is just as appropriate in a satire way....


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## UsernameTaken (20/7/17)

Sorry guys, I missed these replies. I understand now I am 77% in the kettle and 55% in the brew house!

Cheers,
UNT


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## klangers (21/7/17)

Yeah it's funny how your efficiency can suddenly improve when the right measurements are used to calculate it...  Same thing happened to me - my volume etchings were wrong


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## Matplat (21/7/17)

manticle said:


> You obviously haven't been reading brulosophy.
> 
> Check out this exbeeriment: http//www.brulosophy.com/brewertakesshitinkettleandonlyoneintwelvetastersnotice/freebeer



Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..... bloody awesome! Actually did laugh out loud!


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## GalBrew (21/7/17)

manticle said:


> I make joke.
> 
> Funny joke.



Quite funny! Although I think you could take a dump straight into the tasting cups and most tasters wouldn't pick up on it!


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## manticle (21/7/17)

That's part II


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## UsernameTaken (17/11/17)

Ok, took all my wort from the kettle less about a litre and now I have trub up to the 8 litre mark on my fermenter!


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## TwoCrows (17/11/17)

It will settle and compact, the fermentation will cake on top. All good.

I have noticed that my last three mashes have been down by at least 4 points. Their seams to be a lot of sticks and crap in my grain bills, not all of it grain. Maybe cut with horse food?


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## UsernameTaken (17/11/17)

Cold crashed 48 hours ago and still at the 8 litre mark!


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## Jack of all biers (17/11/17)

You have to supply more than that if you want a credible answer. What went into the kettle (hops, fruit etc)? You BIAB, but what was the recipe? How clear is the liquor from your mash to the kettle? Picture of the cold crashed fermentor might help also.


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## UsernameTaken (17/11/17)

Yeah, the issue that started this thread was my efficiency being so low and we traced it to the 5 or more litres I was leaving behind in the kettle.

So now I have gone to the other extreme and I am loosing 8 litres to the fermenter!

So it seems a good portion of the wort is doomed to remain either in the kettle or the fermenter?


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## MHB (18/11/17)

5-10% loss in the kettle is pretty standard, in fact it's beneficial.
In BIAB it can easily be more, especially if you mill very fine (lots of flour), use crap malt or lots of unmalted adjunct, have a short <60minute boil, have a less than intensive enough boil (you need to be getting 10% evaporation), are using lots of hops, Too little Calciun misusing or not using a good kettle fining, cant tell the difference between Hot and Cold break. No doubt there are a few other factors worth looking at but their the big ones.

If the wort going into the cube is clear, then trub forms as it cools - that's cold break and you needn't worry about it - its yeast nutrient and fine to add to the fermenter.
Electric urns are often a little under powered, try wrapping an old towel around it during the boil or some other insulation, push your boil out to 90 minutes and have a look at the rest of the big factors that effect trub formation and separation.
Mark


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## UsernameTaken (18/11/17)

Thanks Mark, that is a really helpful reply!

When I was leaving 5 litres behind in the kettle everything else was fine, I was just surprised my efficiency was only 55% and wondered what I was doing wrong?

Everyone then said they leave much less than that behind and I was wasting good wort so I took more and it it still gets wasted in the fermenter!

So I think I will go back to my old calculations and not worry about my efficiency.

Out of interest, what will longer boil achieve?

Cheers,
UNT


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## Jack of all biers (18/11/17)

UsernameTaken said:


> So I think I will go back to my old calculations and not worry about my efficiency.
> 
> Out of interest, what will longer boil achieve?
> 
> ...


Lots of stuff. Read these for some relevant stuff that may help your trub issues. Originally posted by MHB sometime ago, then again and again and again..... So he can take the credit for sharing these in the first place.

I've thrown in the Mash separation systems, just so you can read about how different systems of separating the wort have different impacts. Otherwise it's not really that applicable to BIAB, but the point is; clear wort into the kettle reduces trub and will improve your 'efficiencies' down the line.

EDIT - It's the totality of the individual components of the brewery system that is the measure of efficiency. The equipment used likely has a larger effect on the various 'efficiencies' along the way, more so than the ingredients or technique (temp, timings or method). I'm not saying ignore technique or quality ingredients, just that if efficiency is your measure of success, you can have a great knowledge and technique, but your equipment may hold back that 10-15% in efficiency to the fermentor (or even to the packaging)

EDIT - Spellink


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## MHB (18/11/17)

Higher molecular weight protein tends to coagulate first, we want to precipitate as much of the high MW protein as we can and some of the medium weight as well a bunch of other reactions that take place in the kettle.
As above an urn is often not really powerful enough to achieve all the goals of a boil in 60 minutes, so boiling longer will do a better job. I was talking to a couple of commercial brewers the other night, they are doing 75 to 90 minute boils on systems with way more power than home brewers use.
Its worth remembering that only a few years ago, two hour boils were standard, home brewers tend to try and cut corners, save time and money... rather than focus on making the best beer they can.
Personally if I'm using Maris Otter I do a 120 minute boil, if you want to know why try it and see the difference.

Posted this plenty of times before, but it's a good basic introduction to what goes on in the kettle
Mark

Edit
Teach me to type slowly JOAB has already attached, and a lot more - all good reading
M


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## Jack of all biers (18/11/17)

Speed typist, that's me.  That's why I need to go back to add and edit all the time.


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## UsernameTaken (18/11/17)

Excellent information guys, thank you. 90 minute boil it is today!

Cheers,
UNT


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## koshari (18/11/17)

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> Thanks, I am a tight arse Pome


noticed that by the incorrect spelling of "coathanger" in your handle


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (20/11/17)

koshari said:


> noticed that by the incorrect spelling of "coathanger" in your handle


Thanks for noticing. I used to run a New Zealand flag on another stralian forum, it was years before one of the kiwis there asked me where i was from.

Sid


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## good4whatAlesU (20/11/17)

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> Thanks for noticing. I used to run a New Zealand flag on another stralian forum, it was years before one of the kiwis there asked me where i was from.
> 
> Sid


A few of us floating about ...


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