# Bread Yeast To Brew Beer



## KingPython (2/4/09)

I think I'm going to do this. Use a Coopers Stout kit and keep it to 12L on top of yeast cake. Any other tips?


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## Bizier (2/4/09)

Finnish sahti is brewed with a fresh bread yeast that is specific to the country. I have heard that bread yeast is very hungry stuff, depending on the metabolism of your particular yeast, you might end up with a thin beer from the yeast eating all of your dextrines. I would suggest a very low temp to start with if you can to keep off flavours and fusels to a minimum.

I am keen to hear your results.


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## KingPython (2/4/09)

I heard that as well which is why I'm effectively doing a two can, plus a stout should be able to at least hide some of the less desirable traits of the yeast.


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## Swinging Beef (2/4/09)

If you think kit yeast gives off shitty flavours, wait till you try this one.


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## Pollux (2/4/09)

I thought of this while making a starter the other day for my pizza dough.....

It could work, not sure on the potential flavours, will be interesting to see.


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## Sammus (2/4/09)

do you mean like cheap supermarket bakers yeast? or one of those fancy shmancy sourdough yeasts?


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## bigfridge (2/4/09)

Bizier said:


> Finnish sahti is brewed with a fresh bread yeast that is specific to the country. I have heard that bread yeast is very hungry stuff, depending on the metabolism of your particular yeast, you might end up with a thin beer from the yeast eating all of your dextrines. I would suggest a very low temp to start with if you can to keep off flavours and fusels to a minimum.
> 
> I am keen to hear your results.



I beleive that they will be dissapointing  

Bread yeast is designed (ie has the right DNA) to convert sugar into CO2 to make the dough rise. Brewing yeast is designed to convert sugar into alcohol.

So unless you want to make gassy, low alcohol beer with heaps of off flavours please just stick to using the correct yeast.

HTH,
Dave


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## KingPython (2/4/09)

Swinging Beef said:


> If you think kit yeast gives off shitty flavours, wait till you try this one.


Hah, well I'm planning to start proper BIAB might as well go out with a bang.

Cheap supermarket yeast left over from making mead. I definately smelt sulfur while that was brewing so yeah keep it low.

Actually this is stupid, I'm not going through with this.


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## AndrewQLD (2/4/09)

One of the reasons Home brew had such a bad reputation in the early days wasn't just the sugar or extract but a lot of the time brewers yeasts weren't available and bread yeast was substituted. 

Believe me you won't like what you brew. Bread yeasts aren't comfortable fermenting high levels of sugar and throw some really interesting :huh: flavours and aromas, sadly they don't taste or smell good.

Andrew


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## Ronin (2/4/09)

AndrewQLD said:


> One of the reasons Home brew had such a bad reputation in the early days wasn't just the sugar or extract but a lot of the time brewers yeasts weren't available and bread yeast was substituted.
> 
> Believe me you won't like what you brew. Bread yeasts aren't comfortable fermenting high levels of sugar and throw some really interesting :huh: flavours and aromas, sadly they don't taste or smell good.
> 
> Andrew



I've always thought the same thing, and I'm never brewing with anything but liquid yeast now. 

But on the mead thread, a lot of people say they use bread yeast. Surely there's less flavour in a mead for the off flavours imparted by bread yeast to hide behind?

Just not sure why it's such a big no-no in beer, but with mead it's accepted fairly well.


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## AndrewQLD (2/4/09)

Ronin said:


> I've always thought the same thing, and I'm never brewing with anything but liquid yeast now.
> 
> But on the mead thread, a lot of people say they use bread yeast. Surely there's less flavour in a mead for the off flavours imparted by bread yeast to hide behind?
> 
> Just not sure why it's such a big no-no in beer, but with mead it's accepted fairly well.




That's true Ronin, I've used bread yeast in mead with great results.
Perhaps I should have been a bit more descriptive with my original post.
I think the difference is the type of sugars involved and the quantities of these "wrong" sugars, with mead it's pretty much straight honey (monosaccharides, fructose and glucose) whereas beer has sugars (maltose, dextrines ect) derived from malt and wheat which are totally different, I think this may be why the flavours and aromas produced are so different to those with mead.

Andrew


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## justsomeguy (2/4/09)

There was a BasicBrewing episode where teh samae wort was fermented with both an bread yeast and Cal Ale, I think, to compare the difference.

Supposedly the results were quite reasonable. Sorry can't remember which episode but it was within the last 6 months or so. Might be worth a listen.

gary


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## ~MikE (2/4/09)

bigfridge said:


> I beleive that they will be dissapointing
> 
> Bread yeast is designed (ie has the right DNA) to convert sugar into CO2 to make the dough rise. Brewing yeast is designed to convert sugar into alcohol.
> 
> ...



Not sure if i'd entirely agree with you on this one. both will consume the sugars and release CO2, until the oxygen supply is gone, then anaerobic respiration will take place which is where the alcohol comes into it. they both have all the same metabolic pathways, bread yeast will just shitter at making beer, for other reasons.


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## staggalee (2/4/09)

And on the flip side, I was told you can`t use the dry brewers yeast in bread yet some Google sites are saying you can, no problem. Other sites are saying you can`t :wacko: 

stagga.


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## Supra-Jim (2/4/09)

staggalee said:


> And on the flip side, I was told you can`t use the dry brewers yeast in bread yet some Google sites are saying you can, no problem. Other sites are saying you can`t :wacko:
> 
> stagga.



Stagga, you may be interested in some sachets of 'instant bread' i have. Jsut add to water and BANG, instant loaf of bread!  

:icon_cheers: SJ


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## Swinging Beef (2/4/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> Stagga, you may be interested in some sachets of 'instant bread' i have. Jsut add to water and BANG, instant loaf of bread!
> :icon_cheers: SJ


 B)


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## RetsamHsam (2/4/09)

justsomeguy said:


> There was a BasicBrewing episode where teh samae wort was fermented with both an bread yeast and Cal Ale, I think, to compare the difference.
> 
> Supposedly the results were quite reasonable. Sorry can't remember which episode but it was within the last 6 months or so. Might be worth a listen.
> 
> gary



This is the episode. It is actually a video episode, and they were pleased with the results from memory. 



staggalee said:


> And on the flip side, I was told you can`t use the dry brewers yeast in bread yet some Google sites are saying you can, no problem. Other sites are saying you can`t :wacko:
> 
> stagga.



They also made bread with beer yeast in the above episode (US-05) from memory, so that MYTH is BUSTED!!!


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## Katherine (2/4/09)

staggalee said:


> And on the flip side, I was told you can`t use the dry brewers yeast in bread yet some Google sites are saying you can, no problem. Other sites are saying you can`t :wacko:
> 
> stagga.



It can be done... done it... worked well to...


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## KingPython (2/4/09)

I used kit yeast to make pizza, rises a lot higher than normal bread yeast.


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## pdilley (2/4/09)

Read the packet of an Ale yeast and write down the specific yeast name. Take a packet of bakers yeast and write down the specific yeast used there. Take both names and compare them side by side. Ale yeast = Bakers yeast. It's the same yeast. What's actually different is the isolated strain of yeast in each packet on the shelf. Specific strains put off certain flavours, ferment best within certain temperature ranges, eat through simple sugars or complex sugars better than another strain, of exhibit many other traits that made it dsirable to continue producing while other less desirable ones are discarded. Makes it easier to market one over the other. Same on the bakers yeast market. But it's really the same yeast we are talking about.

Just like in the mushroom industry you can order so many different types of say bog standard white button mushrooms to grow out. They are all white button mushroom just different isolated strains with slightly different growing or fruiting parameters that let them be marketed against all the other strains. Mushrooms are a good example as they are very closely related to yeast cells for comparisson reasons.

By your fifth or sixth repitch you may find that bakers yeast readily adapting to that growth medium and putting out some decent results. But do you have the time to isolate, adapt and preserve your strain? Most people won't or can't but if the more scientific approach to brewing intrigue you then go for it, it's your hobby so enjoy yourself.


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## Fourstar (2/4/09)

Sammus said:


> do you mean like cheap supermarket bakers yeast? or one of those fancy shmancy sourdough yeasts?



Just so you know, Sourdough yeast is your everyday 'wild yeast' that infects your brewery. If you want sour beers or a Bindi special... Go for it!

As for bakers yeast...... yikes i think ive got the butters "i need links in my sig" Syndrome


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## ollave (2/4/09)

Sammus said:


> do you mean like cheap supermarket bakers yeast? or one of those fancy shmancy sourdough yeasts?


Um ... those fancy shmancy _sourdough starters_ are an interesting mix of flour, water, yeast, and _bacteria_.

If the bacteria in a sourdough starter turns out not to be a problem for brewing (maybe it will hate wort, who knows) I would still be concerned about how long the ferment would take: commercial bakers' yeast can bulk ferment and prove a loaf in a couple of hours (give or take); a sourdough starter will take (in my experience) 10-12 hours. (Yeah, some starters are faster, some slower, and they work faster in warmer weather and slower when it's cooler. Sound familiar?  )

If someone tries this experiment, please do report what happens ... it'd be fascinating to know. With my only having one(*) home brew (kit at that!) completed and bottled (passable after one week in the bottles, but nothing to brag about) I think I need more experience before trying esoteric experiments.

BTW, the other way round -- using brewers yeast to bake with -- has a long history. Search with your favourite search engine for barm, or for a modern discussion see Dan Lepard's commentary on his Barm Bread recipe which uses yeast from bottle conditioned beer. (I'd link to the recipe, but I don't think Dan has published it online; it's from his book _The Handmade Loaf_ which I heartily recommend to anyone interested in bread baking of any type.)

[ Edit: forgot to mention but yes, as the previous reply says, sourdough yeasts are "wild", and probably from the flour(s) the sourdough starter is created and maintained with, plus of course your regular yeast mutational drift. You might discover the next great commercial ale yeast ... or a monster! ]

Cheers!

(*) OK, sometime in the early to mid 90's I brewed an extract brew at some commercial place that provided ingredients, equipment, and supervision/instruction. The resulting beer was tainted -- a metallic flavour is the best I can describe it -- and when the guy running the place couldn't taste it (or refused to admit to tasting it, perhaps) I didn't go back. Getting way off topic, I found a couple of those bottles in the back of the cupboard a year or two back, and tried 'em: yup, hadn't improved in the meantime. (Hadn't got any worse, either, so the beer lasted longer than ten years in the bottle!)


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## Katherine (3/4/09)

> Just so you know, Sourdough yeast is your everyday 'wild yeast' that infects your brewery. If you want sour beers or a Bindi special... Go for it!
> 
> As for bakers yeast...... yikes i think ive got the butters "i need links in my sig" Syndrome



If you're sanitation is up to scratch in your brewery, you are safe as the bacteria in your sourdough is the same bacteria in the air...as you said. Just don't use the same spoon that your mix your starter with to bulk prime....


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## staggalee (3/4/09)

wWe`ll be doing home pizza tomorrow nite, so the bottom line for me is: YES you can use dry beer yeast in place of bakers yeast!!
It had better work...don`t make me come down there :lol: 

stagga.

{sundried tomatoe, goats cheese and red onion on a tomatoe/garlic base}


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## Katherine (3/4/09)

staggalee said:


> wWe`ll be doing home pizza tomorrow nite, so the bottom line for me is: YES you can use dry beer yeast in place of bakers yeast!!
> It had better work...don`t make me come down there :lol:
> 
> stagga.
> ...



one of our best breads was using a left over deliverence yeast as we didnt have any baker's yeast... it went down well with triple cream brie...


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## KingPython (3/4/09)

staggalee said:


> wWe`ll be doing home pizza tomorrow nite, so the bottom line for me is: YES you can use dry beer yeast in place of bakers yeast!!
> It had better work...don`t make me come down there :lol:
> 
> stagga.
> ...


What I've found personally is that it doesn't 'prove' but rises a lot once in the oven obviously. The base itself tastes a bit yeasty which is a good thing imo.

I think once I bottle my mead I'll make my decision then and there


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## Airgead (3/4/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Read the packet of an Ale yeast and write down the specific yeast name. Take a packet of bakers yeast and write down the specific yeast used there. Take both names and compare them side by side. Ale yeast = Bakers yeast. It's the same yeast. What's actually different is the isolated strain of yeast in each packet on the shelf. Specific strains put off certain flavours, ferment best within certain temperature ranges, eat through simple sugars or complex sugars better than another strain, of exhibit many other traits that made it dsirable to continue producing while other less desirable ones are discarded. Makes it easier to market one over the other. Same on the bakers yeast market. But it's really the same yeast we are talking about.



It may be the same species but it certainly isn't the same strain. What you are doing with bread yeast is like walking into the brew shop, grabbing a random packet of yeast off the shelf and fermenting with that. Only it probably wouldn't turn out as good as that. you have no control over your fermentation characteristics. No idea of the temperature requirements. No idea of the alcohol tolerance. No idea how well its been stored or how old it is.

Frankly, given that a packet of dry brewers years is only, $4 or thereabouts and you can re-pitch to get several brews out of it, why would you bother? Ok, a packet of bread yeast might only be $2 at the supermarket but is it really worth the hassle? For $2? Given that you are chucking in a good few $ worth of grain/hops/honey, is it worth the risk?

Seriously, if you really need to save the $2, there are plenty of people who will give you a starting pitch and you can keep a bit of slurry in the fridge from batch to batch.

On the other hand, brewers yeast makes fantastic bread.

Cheers
Dave


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## KingPython (3/4/09)

Cost isn't the issue, it's just an experiment. Like I said before it'll be on a whim if I do this.


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## Bribie G (3/4/09)

Back in the days of the Queensland Beer strike I opened a LHBS in Maryborough which was an offshoot of the already popular one in Bundy. Until then virtually the only source of supply was a local chemist and the normal recipe for Maryborough Bitter  consisted of:

1 tin of Saunders Malt
1.5 k of raw sugar preferably free if you knew a driver for the mill
one ounce of old brown Pride of Ringwood Flowers
A sachet of Tandaco Yeast.

The locals would bring in a bottle of their little baby for me to try and I never hit on one that didn't taste like a glass of wheelie bin washings. We eventually got the bulk of the customers onto Wander Yeast from a honey dispenser, hop pellets that would come in fairly fresh from Brigalow at the time and either Brigalow or Edme yeast, the Edme being far superior.

A few hold outs still used Tandaco, proudly washing and washing it after every brew and repitching and it was dreadful stuff. Best of luck but I'm confident it will be a one off experiment.


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## AndrewQLD (3/4/09)

Ah the memories, eh Bribie? :lol: 

Andrew


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## warrenlw63 (3/4/09)

That sounds like the stuff my one-legged uncle used to make. I'd be transfixed as my old man would open one in the sink and the contents would shoot upwards like a Saturn V rocket. (was around the same time too) :lol: 

Needless to say my old man would mutter things best not replicated and deem the beer to be "shit".  

Warren -


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## Sammus (3/4/09)

Fourstar said:


> Just so you know, Sourdough yeast is your everyday 'wild yeast' that infects your brewery. If you want sour beers or a Bindi special... Go for it!






ollave said:


> Um ... those fancy shmancy _sourdough starters_ are an interesting mix of flour, water, yeast, and _bacteria_.



The bacteria is lactobacilli. Yes there is some flour in there too, but that wont really influence a lot. but saying its just a mix of bacteria and yeast makes it sound way less interesting! the yeast part comes in all different strains (there are some websites where you can buy like 20 different strains of sourdough yeast, much like wyeast brewers yeast). So I'm sure those yeasts would give different flavour profiles as well. It's not like its just no-name dry bakers yeast mixed with vinager.


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## Bribie G (3/4/09)

AndrewQLD said:


> Ah the memories, eh Bribie? :lol:
> 
> Andrew



Memories? My kit n kilo days of last year are now ancient memories to me. :lol: Pitch at 28, let's make this a strong brew and put in an extra 500 of dex, nah just double it to 2 kilos .... don't know how I ever survived thus far to do AG :huh: :huh:


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## Sammus (3/4/09)

Fourstar said:


> Just so you know, Sourdough yeast is your everyday 'wild yeast' that infects your brewery. If you want sour beers or a Bindi special... Go for it!


BS. Saying all sourdough yeast is infectious wild yeast is like saying the same thing about wyeast. Yes some people make sourdough starters with wild yeast by just leaving flour out and seeing what happens, but certain styles of beer are brewed that way too. Some of them good, some of them not. You can also buy purpose 'bred' sourdough strains, a huge range of them at that.




ollave said:


> Um ... those fancy shmancy _sourdough starters_ are an interesting mix of flour, water, yeast, and _bacteria_.



The bacteria is lactobacilli (lactobacillius?). Yes there is some flour in there too, but that wont really influence a lot. but saying its just a mix of bacteria and yeast makes it sound way less interesting! the yeast part comes in all different strains (there are some websites where you can buy like 20 different strains of sourdough yeast, much like wyeast brewers yeast). So I'm sure those yeasts would give different flavour profiles as well. It's not like its just no-name dry bakers yeast mixed with random infectious bacteria. Lacto is used in lambics and stuff at least, so it has its place in brewing.


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## ollave (3/4/09)

Sammus said:


> BS. Saying all sourdough yeast is infectious wild yeast is like saying the same thing about wyeast. Yes some people make sourdough starters with wild yeast by just leaving flour out and seeing what happens, but certain styles of beer are brewed that way too. Some of them good, some of them not. You can also buy purpose 'bred' sourdough strains, a huge range of them at that.


A difference is that "just leaving flour out" (well, a couple of weeks of repeatedly tossing most of the nascent starter away and feeding the remainder with more water and flour) is expected to create a usable sourdough starter, and there don't seem to be huge concerns about the starter dramatically changing character over time (weeks, months, years) although the bacteria (and presumably yeast) strains may well change. In a post by Dan Lepard on his web site (in a thread about what constitutes "San Francisco Sourdough") he noted:

...
Yes, I'm sure what you observe is correct because if the cultures are from different sources and kept separate then they will maintain different characteristics. But I would also say that, if after a year of regular feeding, these cultures that you keep are compared under a microscope to the original culture, changes would be identified - even though these changes may not markedly affect the flavour or gassing power of the current starter you have. 
...
I had one renowned sourdough culture tested at NCYC in Norwich and we couldn't find any of the bacteria listed on the packet in it. But that doesn't mean it won't make an excellent sourdough starter.
​​In contrast beer yeast seems very fragile (at least, based on all these discussions!), and to have (much) more responsibility for flavour in the brewed beer than the sourdough starter does in bread. There are bakers who maintain multiple starters, but it's not (so far as I can tell) common; usually maintaining one is enough work.  

Time to relax and have a home brew; it's Friday and it must be beer o'clock!


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## manticle (3/4/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Just like in the mushroom industry you can order so many different types of say bog standard white button mushrooms to grow out. They are all white button mushroom just different isolated strains with slightly different growing or fruiting parameters that let them be marketed against all the other strains. Mushrooms are a good example as they are very closely related to yeast cells for comparisson reasons.



Not saying you're wrong about the yeast but what mushrooms other than field, swiss brown and button are the same basic spore?

Portabello, enoki, shitake, truffle etc are all very, very different from each other.


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## Sammus (4/4/09)

ollave said:


> A difference is that "just leaving flour out" (well, a couple of weeks of repeatedly tossing most of the nascent starter away and feeding the remainder with more water and flour) is expected to create a usable sourdough starter,



My experience and research leads me to believe that this is an old wives tale. I, nor anyone I know that has tried (there has been a few), has ever had a usable sourdough starter by leaving out flour/water. Every serious piece of advice I've read on making sourdough says that the 'leaving it out' method is a sure way to waste time and ruin your dough, and recommends purchasing one of the many purpose built cultures out there for good results.

All said and done, I don't have a huge amount of experience with sourdoughs, I've tried on several occasions to start my own culture, as have a few friends, and we've all had terrible results, so I just resorted to making regular bread and buying sourdough.

One day I'll invest in a proper culture :beer:


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## ollave (4/4/09)

Sammus said:


> My experience and research leads me to believe that this is an old wives tale. I, nor anyone I know that has tried (there has been a few), has ever had a usable sourdough starter by leaving out flour/water.


My experience is, um, otherwise: I've successfully created a starter and bake with it. It can be done.  

The process I used was pretty much this one:
Sourdom's How to make your own starter​... except that I was less fussy: no rye flour; nothing labeled "organic", just wholemeal flour and water. You do have to be persistent: the starter will smell outright nasty for a few days along the way before it settles down to a nice regular yeasty smell. It will also smell good before it's lively enough to bake successfully; patience is required.

Results (mine, so yes I'm to blame for the irregular shape of this loaf):


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## ollave (4/4/09)

Sammus said:


> I, nor anyone I know that has tried (there has been a few), has ever had a usable sourdough starter by leaving out flour/water. Every serious piece of advice I've read on making sourdough says that the 'leaving it out' method is a sure way to waste time and ruin your dough, ...


Er, I trust you don't mean leaving flour and water out and then trying to use that directly (without a regular cycle of feeding and discarding to build the starter) to bake with? I wouldn't expect that to work, no ...


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## Airgead (4/4/09)

Sammus said:


> My experience and research leads me to believe that this is an old wives tale. I, nor anyone I know that has tried (there has been a few), has ever had a usable sourdough starter by leaving out flour/water. Every serious piece of advice I've read on making sourdough says that the 'leaving it out' method is a sure way to waste time and ruin your dough, and recommends purchasing one of the many purpose built cultures out there for good results.



Absolute rot. Probably put about by people selling sourdough starters.

I have started a few starters by leavign out flour/water until it starts to ferment then building it up (remove 50%, add back flour and water). Fred, my current starter does a fantastic job and was one I made this way.

Cheers
Dave


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## Fourstar (4/4/09)

Sammus said:


> BS. Saying all sourdough yeast is infectious wild yeast is like saying the same thing about wyeast.



What angle are you trying to take here sammus?

I was simply pointing out that the 'infection' people get with their beers is usually due to a proportion of 'wild yeast' in their beer.

*in-fect *_verb _"to taint or contaminate with something that affects quality, character, or condition unfavorably: to infect the air with poison gas."


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## Sammus (4/4/09)

Fourstar said:


> What angle are you trying to take here sammus?
> 
> I was simply pointing out that the 'infection' people get with their beers is usually due to a proportion of 'wild yeast' in their beer.
> 
> *in-fect *–_verb _"to taint or contaminate with something that affects quality, character, or condition unfavorably: to infect the air with poison gas."



That sourdough yeast isn't just random 'infectious wild yeast' in the air around us, anymore than brewing yeast is. Its like everyone is treating brewing yeast as something special holy grail that you have to be ultra careful with at risk of contamination, but sourdough yeast is just whatever is floating around in the air. Sure you can make an open sourough starter that attracts whatever is in the air around it, some may have good results, I havent and neither have my friends that have tried. You can also open ferment beer with wild yeast, some have good results, others dont.


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## Fourstar (4/4/09)

Sammus said:


> That sourdough yeast isn't just random 'infectious wild yeast' in the air around us, anymore than brewing yeast is.



Yuu just dont get it, i never implied wild yeast is infectious. I was pointing out you could attempt todo a wild yeast beer over a "I attmpted to brew a clean Munich Helles, turns out i got a wild yeast infection and now it tastes sour, acetic and ar$e."


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## Sammus (4/4/09)

No. The point is that originally you claimed that sourdough yeast is everyday 'wild yeast'. It isn't.


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## chalky (4/4/09)

Well Dave, you inspired me to have a hack at making a sourdough starter with flour/water  

Link to my experiment

--chalky



Airgead said:


> Absolute rot. Probably put about by people selling sourdough starters.
> 
> I have started a few starters by leavign out flour/water until it starts to ferment then building it up (remove 50%, add back flour and water). Fred, my current starter does a fantastic job and was one I made this way.
> 
> ...


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## pdilley (4/4/09)

manticle said:


> Not saying you're wrong about the yeast but what mushrooms other than field, swiss brown and button are the same basic spore?
> 
> Portabello, enoki, shitake, truffle etc are all very, very different from each other.



Been out at the LHBSs so back to reply just now 

I used mushroom industry as an analogy because mushrooms are higher order fungi, and yeasts are unicellular fungi. To the point even Ale yeasts will produce spores! -- though under high distress

You need to get the scientific naming down. I'm not going to go into Spore -> Strains cross-overs because it might twist your mind to know there are not just two sexes but up to 4 sexes is what we deal with normally with spores.

The scientific name of a species tells you the genus and the species name of an organism.

With yeasts the first name is the genus, and the second name is the species. (same with mushrooms btw).

So Saccharomyces which is latin for Sugar Fungi (not a big surprise) comprises over 1,500+ species catalogued to date.
cerevisiae in my rusty Latin is "fleshy to look at" and is the species.

So the species of sugar yeasts that is fleshy to look at is Saccharomyces cerevisiae and it is used for baking and brewing and actually, operates in a manner similar to a human cell and therefore an important model organism in genetics and molecular biology.. but lets not go there. It is known as S. cerevisiae short form of the scientific name, Brewers yeast, Ale yeast, Top-fermenting yeast, Bakers yeast, and Budding yeast.

See the problem with common names, they multiply out of control and really are referencing the same exact yeast.

Now back to spores and strains. Saccharomyces cerevisiae spores and mushroom spores have genetic material to cross, normally we can think in Male and Female crossings for designing trait matrixes using standard high school biology course knowledge. However, we can have to deal with up to 4 different sexes and crossings between them.

Lets skip all that and go to the end result. The end result is you have a tremendous mixture of genetic crossings. Each of these is called a Strain. Each genetic crossing mix is a unique set of genes that can switch on and off various aspects of the fungi in question. This leads to certain strains being stronger or weaker at doing anything that has to do with being that particular fungi.

If you isolate a strain you have what is called a mono culture.
If you catalogue that strain with others you have a strain catalogue.

You can grow out your strains in your strain catalogue and compare and contrast how well each perform for a set given task (say fermenting wort into Ale).
You can then market to consumers who don't know anything about all the above and give them fancy names like Montrachet, or Nottingham, or psuedo scientific sounding names like S-04, its all marketing fluff and only serves to sell to consumers.

Now backing up we see that no matter what the strain we are talking about, we are simply talking about one strain of Saccharomyces cerevisiae, or bringing back the common language, one strain of Bakers yeast  or also 100% correct one strain of Brewers yeast, or etc. etc. one strain of Ale yeast. Its all the same thing.

So then you have lots of arguments among the common people about what x or y or z is and how x is not y and z is close to x by y is just wierd. The scientist just shakes his head or smiles and enjoys the humour in it all.

So you can brew beer with bakers yeast.
You can make bread with brewers yeast.
and for our Mead guys brew Mead with bakers yeast.
Because they are the same exact organism!

Each "strain" will perform better or worse at both leavening bread and fermenting wort into Ale, or must into Mead.

What scares people is there is no idea what a new unknown yeast strain of Saccharomyces cerevisiae will do when its sold for one end environment and instead used in different end environment.

What makes me shake my head is if a recipe is designed around a specific strain of yeast (say the JAO mead with bakers yeast) it has been balanced and crafted to produce good results when using that strain. To use, say a wine yeast strain or ale yeast strain with it is just crazy because you've put the whole balance out of whack and the end result will not taste the same. The contra goes with recipes designed to make say a mead with a specific wine yeast strain, to go back and brew out that particular recipe with bakers yeast is crazy as the recipe was balanced around that specific wine yeast strain. Now with JAO, the recipe is built around the fleischmann bakers yeast strain of 10+ years ago. Although it makes sense that fleischmann is not available locally (unless you live in Melbourne and go to the American Shop in Bentleigh) and although not available that another bakers yeast will more closely match the properties of the recipes strain more so than say an Ale yeast strain. This is why for certain recipes I politely ignore suggestions that deviate too far out of the original strains parameters. For most of the other recipes I'l politely ignore someone suggesting using bakers yeast as its too far out of the parameters of the recipes I have (ale and wine yeast strains). Its all rather logical.


Now lager yeast on the other hand, is Saccharomyces pastorianus. mmm I think you can take it from here 


P.S. Skipping the mushrooms because as consumers you are being sold some mushrooms at different "age" in their life cycle as completely different mushrooms in the supermarkets when they are the same mushroom to start with. But you'll gladly pay more for one with a different name 

Hopefully I can rest my piece on yeast and without touching the sourdough argument (coming from a complete sourdough bread nutter).


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## Bribie G (4/4/09)

Cerevisiae comes from the Latin "of beer" as in the modern Spanish 'Cerveza'. When in Spain I always felt embarrased to order beer as in Spanish, c is pronounced like our th so I would have to walk into a macho bar say "oona thervaytha por favor" and felt I should be standing with one hand on my hip and swinging my handbag with the other  I always hoped I hadn't walked into the Blue Oyster Bar by mistake :lol:


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## LLoyd (5/4/09)

ollave said:


> Um ... those fancy shmancy _sourdough starters_ are an interesting mix of flour, water, yeast, and _bacteria_.
> 
> If the bacteria in a sourdough starter turns out not to be a problem for brewing (maybe it will hate wort, who knows) I would still be concerned about how long the ferment would take: commercial bakers' yeast can bulk ferment and prove a loaf in a couple of hours (give or take); a sourdough starter will take (in my experience) 10-12 hours. (Yeah, some starters are faster, some slower, and they work faster in warmer weather and slower when it's cooler. Sound familiar?  )
> 
> ...




Now there's someone who talks my language!! My old friend FRANK the culture (WHO I MURDERED) contributed some of his sperm to a liquid culture (KL101) Which was fermenter filled with dexrose and water. Nicely sweet/sour.... Used KL101 instead of water to refresh FRANK. He made some cracker "project breads" and accounted for about 20% of the daily dough mixes at the bistro... Frank was a happy/active little cannibal.... :chug:


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## chalky (8/4/09)

Oh no. After 5 days, RIP Sourdough Jim. 

See the link for the photos and a description. 

I will try another sourdough starter after Anzac day.



chalky said:


> Well Dave, you inspired me to have a hack at making a sourdough starter with flour/water
> 
> Link to my experiment
> 
> --chalky


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## Airgead (9/4/09)

chalky said:


> Oh no. After 5 days, RIP Sourdough Jim.
> 
> See the link for the photos and a description.
> 
> I will try another sourdough starter after Anzac day.



I can send you a spoonful of Fred (my starter) if you like. He's pretty much indestructible. Proof that Sydneysiders are tougher than Brisbanites perhaps? h34r: 

Looks like Jim got going for a while there. One thing I did notice is that your initial mix looked a little dry considering it was 50/50 flour and water. I would have expected that to be a very soft dough. Maybe make the next one a bit wetter to start. How did you do the feeding? The last few I started with 50g flour and 50g water then for feeding removed 50g (half) of the mix and added back 25g flour and 25g water. I still feed Fred that way when he's hungry. I keep him in the fridge and feed every week or two (or when I want to make bread) now he's well matured.

Cheers
Dave


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## muckanic (9/4/09)

Sammus said:


> Sure you can make an open sourough starter that attracts whatever is in the air around it, some may have good results, I havent and neither have my friends that have tried.



The wild yeast and bacteria are almost certainly in the wheat in the first place, and it would seem to me to be case of encouraging them whilst discouraging other nasties. From my experience with sour mashing, using incubation temps of 40-45C to kill wild yeast, raw wheat may contain a lacto strain that seems to be able to grow in unconverted starch by secreting amylase. Either that, or unmalted wheat contains a small amount of amylase, or the bugs somehow or other manage to exploit the relatively little amount of natural sugar present. For that matter, bakers yeast would also seem to thrive in starchy conditions, which may be something else which distinguishes it from brewing yeast strains. 

These factors suggest to me that it is unlikely that the flora drop in out of the air. If the flour is lacking in the right bugs, then it would possibly be an idea to supplement it with something that does, like whole wheat berries. Temperature control and both sugar and oxygen availability probably also come into it. Dunno for sure, I just do beer!


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## chalky (9/4/09)

Hi Dave,

I will try making Sourdough Steve a little wetter. I think I went wrong by only feeding Jim once a day when he was quite obviously hungry after 12 hours in the Queensland heat. Also, after he went stinky I don't think I transferred enough of Jim (only a teaspoon) accross into his new clean surroundings so the bacteria tookoff leaving no room for the yeast.

Cheers for the offer of a bit of Fred, but I will try Sourdough Steve first. How did Fred get his name? Jim got his name because SWMBO said "something that smells that bad in my kitchen needs a name".  

--Chalky



Airgead said:


> I can send you a spoonful of Fred (my starter) if you like. He's pretty much indestructible. Proof that Sydneysiders are tougher than Brisbanites perhaps? h34r:
> 
> Looks like Jim got going for a while there. One thing I did notice is that your initial mix looked a little dry considering it was 50/50 flour and water. I would have expected that to be a very soft dough. Maybe make the next one a bit wetter to start. How did you do the feeding? The last few I started with 50g flour and 50g water then for feeding removed 50g (half) of the mix and added back 25g flour and 25g water. I still feed Fred that way when he's hungry. I keep him in the fridge and feed every week or two (or when I want to make bread) now he's well matured.
> 
> ...


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## Airgead (10/4/09)

chalky said:


> Cheers for the offer of a bit of Fred, but I will try Sourdough Steve first. How did Fred get his name? Jim got his name because SWMBO said "something that smells that bad in my kitchen needs a name".



To be honest I can't remember how Fred got his name. I think SWMBO looked at the bubbling mass that was trying to climb out of its jar and said "I think Fred over there needs attention" or somethign like that so it just stuck.

All sourdough starters need a name.

Cheers
Dave


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## manticle (10/4/09)

I just re-read your initial post. It's now clear you were referring to one type of mushroom. My impression was you were talking about all mushrooms/edible fungi which seemed strange and hence my curiosity. I should learn to read.


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## ollave (11/4/09)

chalky said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I will try making Sourdough Steve a little wetter. I think I went wrong by only feeding Jim once a day when he was quite obviously hungry after 12 hours in the Queensland heat. Also, after he went stinky I don't think I transferred enough of Jim (only a teaspoon) accross into his new clean surroundings so the bacteria tookoff leaving no room for the yeast.
> 
> ...


A little wetter won't hurt, nor will 12 hour feedings. (Don't fret if you miss one; it's not a baby.)

It is *normal* for a sourdough starter to go through a stinky stage. Just keep feeding it and it'll clean up at the 7-10 day mark (guesstimate). If it stays stinky and isn't smelling nice by two weeks, toss the lot and start over.

If you weren't expecting the stinky stage, I'm sure you thought "this is all wrong". But actually, it was probably all right up to the point you threw most of it away.

Better luck next time!

Ollave


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## ollave (11/4/09)

Airgead said:


> All sourdough starters need a name.


Mmm, mine's nearly three years old and doesn't have a name yet. Lack of SWMBO perhaps? (And a possible SWMBO's only comment was "Yuck -- sourdough -- horse food!".)

So, do I need to name my starter?  (No Dave, I can't call it Dave: there's already a Dave in the family.)

Ollave


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## KingPython (16/4/09)

I did it-sort of. The mead was essentially water, ethanol and a hint of honey, rather than tipping it I decided I might as well give it a go. 
No hyrdometer so estimated ABV of around 6-8% at around 5L. Boiled up a tin of stout added another 15L and we'll see. Not exactly a precise science 

I have a feeling the yeast will conk out soonish.


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## KingPython (18/4/09)

Update: Smells fruity which is nice but you can taste the more tannin\horsey flavours coming through.


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## King Brown (21/4/09)

staggalee said:


> And on the flip side, I was told you can`t use the dry brewers yeast in bread yet some Google sites are saying you can, no problem. Other sites are saying you can`t :wacko:
> 
> stagga.



Lies, I've baked bread out of the Dry yeast that comes with kits, Left over WYeast starter, and out of a cup of half fermented wort, all with excellent results



Sammus said:


> My experience and research leads me to believe that this is an old wives tale. I, nor anyone I know that has tried (there has been a few), has ever had a usable sourdough starter by leaving out flour/water. Every serious piece of advice I've read on making sourdough says that the 'leaving it out' method is a sure way to waste time and ruin your dough, and recommends purchasing one of the many purpose built cultures out there for good results.
> 
> All said and done, I don't have a huge amount of experience with sourdoughs, I've tried on several occasions to start my own culture, as have a few friends, and we've all had terrible results, so I just resorted to making regular bread and buying sourdough.
> 
> One day I'll invest in a proper culture :beer:



Sammus I used to bake professionally, so I can tell you that leaving flour and water mixed into a soft dough is the authentic way to make a sourdough starter. You need to leave this dough in a bowl covered in cloth or cling wrap for about 2 days, then peel the hard skin off it and put the gooey innards into another larger dough then leave it about another 24 hours after this you seperate off a peice to save as your next starter, then step the dough up again, let prove for about 12 hours then knock back and shape the dough, let prove for about 2 hours then bake the dough. Using this method I have made some very delicious loaves of bread, one I baked last christmas came out of the oven about 10 minutes before lunch and didn't even get a chance to cool down before the whole thing was devoured!

Back OT I'm not sure about bakers yeast in beer, but I can tell you my wild sour dough starters definately begin to smell quite solventy after about 2 days, not so bad for bread that will be baked and the alcohol will be cooked off, but probably not such a good thing for a beer.

See the sour dough thread in the brew food forum


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## KingPython (21/4/09)

I added the last of my tins a 1.7kg lager one into it. It smells solventy but it seems to have calmed down. I'll give it another week or so but it tastes okay, a bit sour but in a stout it seems to suit it.


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## pdilley (21/4/09)

I just started day 3 on my rye flour sourdough starter. Then I just discovered Im not doing it proper finnish style with soured milk in there going all lacto bacilli'y. 

Very clean smell, not yeasty, not bacterial. Very visible rising action on the rye flour so far, I usually toss half and add in again equal parts water and rye flour. But this time I had to cheat, the only soured milk product I had on hand was greek yogurt so in with some of that, some fresh milk, and some fresh flour. Big stir and back on the shelf in the pantry.

Fingers crossed.

Mmmm what to make, maybe some Reikleip, Ruispala, or better yet some hapankorppu since the wife is bent on buying all those imported Finn Crisp crackers.


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## Katherine (22/4/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> I just started day 3 on my rye flour sourdough starter. Then I just discovered Im not doing it proper finnish style with soured milk in there going all lacto bacilli'y.
> 
> Very clean smell, not yeasty, not bacterial. Very visible rising action on the rye flour so far, I usually toss half and add in again equal parts water and rye flour. But this time I had to cheat, the only soured milk product I had on hand was greek yogurt so in with some of that, some fresh milk, and some fresh flour. Big stir and back on the shelf in the pantry.
> 
> ...




Pete post on the sourdough thread would of hated to miss this one... let me know how it goes.?


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