# Bottling?



## willpower (8/3/11)

Hi guys. When bottling Cider in new bottles do I need to steralize the bottles at all? The bottles have not been used before. I got them from a DIY brewer shop.
Also I have been advised to add 140 gm of sugar per 20 Lt for carbonation. Is that right?


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## Hatchy (8/3/11)

Yes, you need to sanitise them. 140g sugar sounds about right.


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## J Grimmer (8/3/11)

_When bottling Cider in new bottles do I need to steralize the bottles at all? 
_Yes... you don't know how long they ave been sealed, how have they ben stored open etc.

_Also I have been advised to add 140 gm of sugar per 20 Lt for carbonation. Is that right?
_I don't bulk prime i use the carbonation drops, it works for me so won't any furthure on this point.

Good luck
Jan.


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## Pennywise (8/3/11)

The amount of priming sugar to add will be dependant of the fermentation temp, the lower the temp, the less you'll need to add, because there will be more residual co2 than if fermented higher.


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## willpower (8/3/11)

Ok next question. How do I sanitize the bottles?


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## DU99 (8/3/11)

can use idopher(non rinse)..or a weak bleach solution(non fragrant) but rinse throughly


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## Pennywise (8/3/11)

Rinse them out to get any dust or what not out of there (personally I'd soak em' in a cleaning solution regardless). Then the use of no-rinse sanitiser, like Starsan is prolly the best way to go about it. Sponsors sell it, a quick search for starsan will give you all the info you need on it. Best sanitiser eva, IMO.


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## Greg.L (8/3/11)

I have to disagree about the need to sanitise bottles. They really just need rinsed. I have been making beer, wine and cider for years, I just rinse after emptying the bottle then rinse again before filling. New bottles just need rinsed.

If you are picky and don't like the idea of only rinsing, the dishwasher gives a good steam clean, better than a chemical wash.

140g in 20L sounds like how much I would use.

Greg


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (8/3/11)

Greg.L said:


> I have to disagree about the need to sanitise bottles. They really just need rinsed. I have been making beer, wine and cider for years, I just rinse after emptying the bottle then rinse again before filling. New bottles just need rinsed.
> 
> If you are picky and don't like the idea of only rinsing, the dishwasher gives a good steam clean, better than a chemical wash.
> 
> ...



And never had a bottle infection?? I'd never use the dishwasher either.....

OP'er - I used to rinse all the dust/dirt/shit outta the bottles and give them a good soak in some home brand bleach (2L $1.71 from woolies) (roughly 1 cup to a full laundry trough) and cold water, after an hour and a half i Rinse the bottles in very hot boiled water then fill the bottles and cap (caps went through a similiar sanitisation process)

Now i use Starsan........ I had a couple of issues getting the dosage right in the beginning but the amount i brew, the bottle will last a very very long time.

Put it this way...... After going through the hard, careful work of making your cider (watch it grow from a watered-down can of concentrated apple juice into a cider you can proudly call your own) say 7 to 10 days....... Then bottle into rinsed and unsanitised bottles? NO WAY! I Honestly dont think your going to get much advice on this site to not to bother to sanitise your bottles or steam clean them in a dishwasher.......... You Might be lucky... On the other hand you might end up with the greenest grass in your street.

Cheers :icon_cheers: 

_wallace_


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## Greg.L (8/3/11)

_WALLACE_ said:


> And never had a bottle infection?? I'd never use the dishwasher either.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No never had a bottle infection, maybe I'm just lucky. I know of plenty other cider makers who just rinse, but it's a matter of how picky you want to be. If you have nasty microbes in your bottles a chemical soak won't kill them anyway. Keep your bottles clean and there won't be problems.

Greg


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## Hatchy (8/3/11)

Greg.L said:


> I have to disagree about the need to sanitise bottles. They really just need rinsed. I have been making beer, wine and cider for years, I just rinse after emptying the bottle then rinse again before filling. New bottles just need rinsed.
> 
> If you are picky and don't like the idea of only rinsing, the dishwasher gives a good steam clean, better than a chemical wash.
> 
> ...



You don't have to sanitise bottles just like you don't have to sanitise yr fermenter. I'll stick with sanitising my bottles personally.


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## Greg.L (8/3/11)

Hatchy said:


> You don't have to sanitise bottles just like you don't have to sanitise yr fermenter. I'll stick with sanitising my bottles personally.



I'm not trying to change anybody's mind, just putting a different POV. Sanitising 1 fermenter is a lot easier than 25-50 bottles, for a start you can bet your hands inside the fermenter.

Greg


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## SuiCIDER (8/3/11)

Greg.L said:


> I'm not trying to change anybody's mind, just putting a different POV. Sanitising 1 fermenter is a lot easier than 25-50 bottles, for a start you can bet your hands inside the fermenter.
> 
> Greg



Depends if you're using a carboy or a bucket. If you don't sanitise you risk infections from bacteria/wild yeast which could end up imparting off tastes and more importantly, bottle bombs.


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## bum (8/3/11)

My personal opinion is that cleaning and sanitising bottles is worth the piece of mind so I do it and it would be my recommendation that a new brewer do the same until they work out (and understand) what level of risk they are willing to accept.

...BUT...

I have personally read an email from a Coopers HB representative that advised that as long as the bottles _look clean to the naked eye_ then between the alcohol and active yeast of a batch of beer an infection is unlikely to take hold. I do recall thinking 'BULLSHIT' at the time but Greg's position isn't all that controversial, guys - just maybe needs some better defined qualifiers.

I do agree with the criticism of using a dishwasher though - no way in hell I'd defend that.


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## Acasta (8/3/11)

Bottling 2 batches at once its alot of bottles and a pain in the ass to bleach and rinse multiple times each, so i've switched to a no-rise sanitiser, that way i just mix a bit of solution and pass if from bottle to bottle and done. Its quick and hasn't been a problem yet. 

Greg, how hot is your water?


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## michael_aussie (8/3/11)

Greg.L said:


> I have to disagree about the need to sanitise bottles. They really just need rinsed. I have been making beer, wine and cider for years, I just rinse after emptying the bottle then rinse again before filling. New bottles just need rinsed.
> 
> If you are picky and don't like the idea of only rinsing, the dishwasher gives a good steam clean, better than a chemical wash.
> Greg


I'll defend Greg.
Before I found this web site, I made about 10 batches, and all I used to clean my bottles was detergent, hot water and elbow grease, and then a run though the dish-washer on the hottest setting with no detergent.
I had no infections.

Does this mean that you won't get infections without sanitising?? Of course not..... You might.

However, now that I've read this web site, I do use chemicals to sanitise, because .... as pointed out, if you do have an infection, you have wasted your time, your ingredients, and the chance to drink your own brew. Sanitising chemicals are so cheap in the whole scheme of things that why would you risk an infection.

In saying all that, I suspect my biggest infection risk is me getting lazy, and not being as diligent with my cleaning as I should be. If you miss a lump of shit in your bottles/fermenter/whatever, it doesn't matter how many chemicals you use .. you are now in the lap of the beer Gods.


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## Greg.L (8/3/11)

Acasta said:


> Bottling 2 batches at once its alot of bottles and a pain in the ass to bleach and rinse multiple times each, so i've switched to a no-rise sanitiser, that way i just mix a bit of solution and pass if from bottle to bottle and done. Its quick and hasn't been a problem yet.
> 
> Greg, how hot is your water?



I think water in a normal dishwasher is 65-70C. With the hot water and steam, for 30+ minutes, even if water doesn't get inside the bottle, steam will. 
Steam is much better at killing germs than any chemical. Of course I don't use detergent when putting bottles in the dishwasher. If you don't like germs the dishwasher is your friend, nearly as good as an autoclave.

Normally, I just rinse with cold water. (creek water at that).

Normal commercial practise for new bottles is just a rinse, I have seen bottling lines in action for wine, they don't use sanitising agents.

Greg


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## Wimmig (8/3/11)

Starsan. Make a 5gal batch up and process all bottles on the same day. No problem.


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## willpower (8/3/11)

Well. I dont have an oppurtunity to get to a place that selld sanitiser. My Cider is ready to bottle. What about a cap full of white king in a sink of hot water followed by a hot water rinse?


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## Sinfathisar (8/3/11)

Cleanliness is next to brewliness IMO the cleaner the better to be sure to be sure


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## michael_aussie (8/3/11)

Willpower said:


> Well. I dont have an oppurtunity to get to a place that selld sanitiser. My Cider is ready to bottle. What about a cap full of white king in a sink of hot water followed by a hot water rinse?


If your bottles are clean .... then do as you wrote above... or instead of white king, use something with Sodium Percarbonate.
NappySan does, as do all of the home brand equivalents.
Just make sure you rise thoroughly afterwards.
Youll be fine as long as your bottles are clean in the first place.


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (8/3/11)

Willpower said:


> Well. I dont have an oppurtunity to get to a place that selld sanitiser. My Cider is ready to bottle. What about a cap full of white king in a sink of hot water followed by a hot water rinse?



Read Below:



_WALLACE_ said:


> OP'er - I used to rinse all the dust/dirt/shit outta the bottles and give them a good soak in some home brand bleach (2L $1.71 from woolies) (roughly 1 cup to a full laundry trough) and cold water, after an hour and a half i Rinse the bottles in very hot boiled water then fill the bottles and cap (caps went through a similiar sanitisation process)
> 
> Now i use Starsan........ I had a couple of issues getting the dosage right in the beginning but the amount i brew, the bottle will last a very very long time.
> 
> ...








michael_aussie said:


> If your bottles are clean .... then do as you wrote above... or instead of white king, use something with Sodium Percarbonate.
> NappySan does, as do all of the home brand equivalents.
> Just make sure you rise thoroughly afterwards.
> Youll be fine as long as your bottles are clean in the first place.



+1......... Blah, Blah, Blah.....


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## kelbygreen (8/3/11)

10ml of bleach to 5lts of water is all thats needed. But match does of vinegar so 10ml to 5lts as well. they say its a no rinse but rinse anyway and its best to rinse bleach with hot water as it neutralises it


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## Pennywise (8/3/11)

My take on sanitation and how I brew. I won't account for the first brew because it was defiantly NOT sanitary.

It used to take me half an hour to put a batch down, I cleaned and sanitized everything, never an infection. As I wanted to better & better my beers it slowly took me longer and longer to put a batch down. From k&k to extract was an extra hour on the brew day, from that to partials was like an extra 2 hours (crushing grain and such), so that's 3 odd hours. The the move to AG, now I'm lucky if I get a brew down in 5 hours. If I had 30-300 bottles to clean & sanitize for the effort I put in to that, I'd do it.

Now, it's not about what method you use or any shit like that. But ffs man, you made beer, fuckin look after it. I know you probably won't get an infection with clean bottles and hot water, but there's more chance you won't if you do it better


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## pimpsqueak (8/3/11)

+1 for hardcore cleaning, rinsing and sterilising. Like Pennywise said, last thing I want to do is sabotage all that hard work with bottles that have been any less than scrupulously cleaned. In fact, I even bought one of those portable steamers and am thinking I might use it as a final step after sterilisation with a no-rinse. Overkill? Maybe, but at least I know I did everything I could.


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## jakub76 (8/3/11)

Greg.L said:


> Normal commercial practise for new bottles is just a rinse
> Greg


Bullshit

Greg, you may be lazy, and perhaps your palette can't detect an infection when you slam it before it has time to over carbonate - but don't just pull things out of your arse like that. 

Greg's post is probably the worst advice I have ever read on this forum. Sanitation is a massively important and rudimentary part of homebrewing. It should be the first thing you learn to do properly. If you care about what you're making then you'll sanitize. If you don't care then go for it, you'll even get a couple more points of alcohol from the wild yeast infection :icon_drunk:


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## bum (8/3/11)

Greg.L said:


> If you don't like germs the dishwasher is your friend, nearly as good as an autoclave.


Autoclaving temps usually _start_ at about 120C don't they? Most people's dishwashers would be closer to temps that will foster growth than they are to autoclaving temps.


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## felten (9/3/11)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization...e_sterilization


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## brendanos (9/3/11)

Here's a really cool, clear & concise article by John Palmer I just googled that might answer just about anything you need to know:

http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/cleaning.html

I clean my laundry sink & fill it with a just-deep-enough bath of no-rinse sanitiser (starsan or iodophor) & dump bottles in there in 15-25 bottle lots. Doesn't seem like a lot of work to me. You just need to keep your bottles clean ie rinse them immediately after pouring & store them clean. Plastic beer crates (tip: ask your state's finest independent beer store - they'd love to get rid of them) are invaluable for storing & also draining/drying bottles up-side-down prior to filling.

You may not be able to buy any cleaners/sterilants before you bottle (though there is no hurry to bottle - your cider won't be ruined if you leave it an extra week in the fermenter) but it may be worth purchasing some chems for future use. They don't need to be expensive, difficult or time consuming.


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## Thirsty Boy (9/3/11)

In this situation, the above post about bleach and vinegar is your solution


Mix 30ml of unscented (the cheaper brands are actually better for this) household bleach into 20L of water. After it is thoroughly mixed in, then mix in 30ml of plain white vinegar.

This will give you a perfectly good no-rinising needed sanitiser. You want 30 seconds of contact time, so dunk your bottles in and leave them submerged for 30 seconds, then drain them well - no need to rinse. The vinegar lowers the pH and means that you can use a low enough concentration of bleach, that it will not cause flavour issues in your final product.

Its a great stop gap solution for when you cant get a purpose made sanitiser and i use it every now and again as a change up sanitiser just to make sure the bugs and critters dont get complacent and start developing resistance to my normal starsan routine.

TB


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## Greg.L (9/3/11)

bum said:


> Autoclaving temps usually _start_ at about 120C don't they? Most people's dishwashers would be closer to temps that will foster growth than they are to autoclaving temps.



Now that IS bad advice. Dishwashers are excellent at killing germs, I was semi-joking about them being like autoclaves. The difference between a dishwasher and an autoclave is that a dishwasher will kill all active live germs while an autoclave also kills dormant bacterial spores. These spores are not a problem in food, only for surgery. Chemical sanitisers don't kill all live germs, only some of them, because chemicals don't have the power to penetrate into clumps of cells the way heat can.

What all the people criticizing me don't say is you will only ever lose one bottle at a time if poor sanitisation causes problems for bottling. There is no possibility of losing a whole batch or even a large fraction. I have never lost even a single bottle. 

Still, if chemical sanitisers make you feel happier then you should definitely use them.

Greg


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## bum (9/3/11)

Greg.L said:


> Now that IS bad advice.


I agree.

Although I suppose I have to since there is zero advice included in the statement.


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## Thirsty Boy (9/3/11)

Greg.L said:


> Now that IS bad advice. Dishwashers are excellent at killing germs, I was semi-joking about them being like autoclaves. The difference between a dishwasher and an autoclave is that a dishwasher will kill all active live germs while an autoclave also kills dormant bacterial spores. These spores are not a problem in food, only for surgery. Chemical sanitisers don't kill all live germs, only some of them, because chemicals don't have the power to penetrate into clumps of cells the way heat can.
> 
> What all the people criticizing me don't say is you will only ever lose one bottle at a time if poor sanitisation causes problems for bottling. There is no possibility of losing a whole batch or even a large fraction. I have never lost even a single bottle.
> 
> ...



you are correct - heat is the best sanitising/sterilising agent of all .. and if it done properly it leaves chemical agents in the dust. But.... given you are suggesting a dishwasher as a practical and effective way to sanitise/sterilise - I assume you have gone to the trouble of actually measuring the temperatures and durations at those temperatures that occur in your dishwasher and made sure that they equate to sufficient kill rates... and of course that you can make some reasonable assertion that everybody's dishwasher will perform like yours??

Because that's the thing you see - a chemical concentration is a chemical concentration... it will work the same way for everybody. But my dishwasher is a 15 year old piece of crap that I can see growing more germs than it kills. I use my oven to sterilise bottles.. but I can and do measure the temperature in there.

You do have a point about bottle sanitation being very unlikely to bugger up more than a bottle or two in any given batch - that's a reasonable assertion. But nonetheless, people want to be sure - and people do tend to like absolutes and measurables. You can get that with a time/temperature combination, you can get it with a chemical concentration/exposure time combination -- I at least get a lot less confidence from a simple assertion that "a dishwasher will kill all active live germs" - maybe it will, maybe yours will... maybe it wont? Toss some time/temp numbers out there for us to see and sooth our fears. What is it that makes you confident? I'm not saying you are wrong - but I would like to know why you are sure you are right.

BTW - my assertion that the bleach/vinegar combo is effective is something I have taken largely on faith. I have heard it stated by an "industry expert" that it is true, and have questioned and had the notion confirmed by another industry expert, so I believe. I don't have the level of detail to support it that I am demanding of Greg... but as of yet no one is demanding it of me so I get away with it for now.


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## Greg.L (9/3/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> You do have a point about bottle sanitation being very unlikely to bugger up more than a bottle or two in any given batch - that's a reasonable assertion. But nonetheless, people want to be sure - and people do tend to like absolutes and measurables. You can get that with a time/temperature combination, you can get it with a chemical concentration/exposure time combination -- I at least get a lot less confidence from a simple assertion that "a dishwasher will kill all active live germs" - maybe it will, maybe yours will... maybe it wont? Toss some time/temp numbers out there for us to see and sooth our fears. What is it that makes you confident? I'm not saying you are wrong - but I would like to know why you are sure you are right.



This is a valid point. I am assuming dishwashers heat the water to a minimum of 60C, and that if you are concerned you can use a cycle of 1 hr or more. From my intro to microbiology classes at uni I am confident that 60C for 1 hr will kill any germ likely to be encountered in the kitchen or brewery/winery. From my observations of temperatures in my dishwasher (base model dishlex) the dishes come out too hot to handle so I think it is more like 70C. Those sort of temperatures and durations, combined with the assistance of steam, will do much better than chemical sanitising agents. Remember that wet heat is much better than dry heat for killing germs.

Greg


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## felten (9/3/11)

Hate to be a pedant but isn't what you're getting in the dishwasher technically a liquid water mist, not steam which is water in the gaseous state. Sure it may be 60c liquid mist, but it doesn't carry the energy that steam does which makes it such a great sterilizer.

I'm sure it works for you anyway, it just might not be the best advice to give to a newcomer.


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## bconnery (9/3/11)

Willpower said:


> Well. I dont have an oppurtunity to get to a place that selld sanitiser. My Cider is ready to bottle. What about a cap full of white king in a sink of hot water followed by a hot water rinse?


If you do some searching you'll find info about the use of bleach as a sanitiser, including the ratios you'll need etc. In the right concentrations you can actually use it as a no rinse sanitiser. 
You also need a little white vinegar for the mix, but you must mix the bleach and the water and then add the vinegar, or the other way, but never mix the vinegar into undiluted bleach. 

You will get a number of people who will tell you that bleach shouldn't go anywhere near your brewing etc. but even the maker of Starsan and other brewing sanitisers has discussed and recommended it as an option. 

Like all sanitisers it only works if you've cleaned first though...

Quick edit: I somehow managed not to read all the other posts outlining just this! ... So, now you have plenty of info on it...


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## Greg.L (9/3/11)

felten said:


> Hate to be a pedant but isn't what you're getting in the dishwasher technically a liquid water mist, not steam which is water in the gaseous state. Sure it may be 60c liquid mist, but it doesn't carry the energy that steam does which makes it such a great sterilizer.
> 
> I'm sure it works for you anyway, it just might not be the best advice to give to a newcomer.



From my microbiology text (Talano and Talano, 1996) "Moist heat occurs in the form of hot water, boiling water or steam...in practice ranges from 60 - 130C" "Moist heat works several times faster than dry heat". 

Greg


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## Airgead (9/3/11)

Greg.L said:


> From my microbiology text (Talano and Talano, 1996) "Moist heat occurs in the form of hot water, boiling water or steam...in practice ranges from 60 - 130C" "Moist heat works several times faster than dry heat".
> 
> Greg



Not that I would ever condone not sanitising bottles but Greg is right about one thing. Kind of...

Some newer dishwashers, particularly brands sold in the US where preserving fruit and things in bottles is still a big thing, have a specific steam cleaning cycle which is designed to sanitise bottles for preserving. Its something like an hour in actual steam at 100C+. When you hear people in the US talking about using a dishwasher to sanitise bottles, that's what they are talking about. Not my 10 year old piece of crap and not 99% of the dishwashers on the Australian market. What you get out of those is a rinse in hot water which is at best at 70. Not recommended.

Give the bottles a rinse with iodophor or starsan. Seriously, it costs a few cents and take a few minutes.

Cheers
Dave


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## shadders (9/3/11)

How much is your time worth to you? Unless it's a labour of love then you can discount but really what brewer likes cleaning bottles? And hour or two spent doing a pain in the arse job really negates the savings of HB if you count it as labour.

If poor sanitatation causes a fermenter infection once every few batches you risk an entire batch. If poor sanitation causes a bottle infection your risk is less than 1/20th of a batch.

When I used to bottle I sanitised but only a token effort. A couple of squirts of hysan up the spout with one of those pump bottle washers. I wish I learned the trick I used for my last bottle batch a lot earlier. Put them in the oven. A small piece of foil on the tops to keep them sealed before and after. Total sterilization and with the foil cover you can store them in that state for a good while. Foil caps are reusable so you only need to muck around cutting little squares the once. Even if you miss a chunk of gunk when rinsing enough heat over enough time will render it biologically inert.


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## fergyle (9/3/11)

so i was bottling last week, and realised at the last minute that i didn't have any sanitiser left. so i just used some detergent/hot water (they were new PET bottles). what do you guys think the chance of infection would be? would i have to be unlucky, or am i doomed to failure?


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## Yob (9/3/11)

fergyle said:


> so i was bottling last week, and realised at the last minute that i didn't have any sanitiser left. so i just used some detergent/hot water (they were new PET bottles). what do you guys think the chance of infection would be? would i have to be unlucky, or am i doomed to failure?




I hope you rinsed them very well, detergent affects head retention. As they are PET if you do pick up an infection in some of them they will be easy to identify.

Good luck


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## mwd (9/3/11)

fergyle said:


> so i was bottling last week, and realised at the last minute that i didn't have any sanitiser left. so i just used some detergent/hot water (they were new PET bottles). what do you guys think the chance of infection would be? would i have to be unlucky, or am i doomed to failure?




New bottles should be fairly clean. Can't see you being doomed to failure. Did you rinse out the detergent afterwards? You might get a soapy taste to your beer. Some bottles may get infected but most probably not all. Keep a close eye on the bottles after a week or so for any that appear over carbonated. Good Luck I am sure you will be pretty much A.O.K.


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## fergyle (9/3/11)

thanks guys. and yep, thoroughly rinsed out the detergent afterwards. it's been over a week now and they appear to be fine, but i guess i'll just have to wait until i crack them!

what should i look for when tasting for infections? i'm assuming it wont always be obvious...


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## Pennywise (9/3/11)

There's a good section in the online version of "How To Brew" by John Palmer, which is a pretty good start to get some ideas of what flavours can come through and how to identify them.


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