# Illiteracy In Oz



## TidalPete (4/6/12)

Absolutely *NOT* pointing the finger at anyone but with the declining standards of education basics in Australia I'm sure lots of you have taken note of numerous mis-spellings on posts on AHB over the years?
All very sad when education in Oz can't even teach the basics even to those with fancy university degrees. 
Plenty of comments coming this way soon I reckon.

The three R's --- Reading, W_r_iting & A_r_ithmatic are just the basic building blocks of education. Too much expect? Too lazy to use a spell-checker? You'll let me Know I'm sure.  

TP


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## edschache (4/6/12)

To be fair a forum about producing alcoholic beverages might not be the ideal place to survey the general public's ability to spell. 

Not disagreeing with your comment but just playing devil's advocate. 

Cheers,

Ed


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## Nick JD (4/6/12)

Intelligence isn't learnt. People will happily learn anything in which they are interested. 

People aren't interested in accurate communication as much as they are in rapid and cheap communication. 

Computers do R, W and A - we get to have fun. 

If it pisses off the anals out there ... that's probably a bonus, because these days, nobody GAF except those with nothing better to do than complain about how it was better when everyone was anal.

_EDIT [this post has been spell, and grammar-checked by a computer with RULES]_

_EDIT 2 [I think we'll find most of these posts are edited for spelling and grammar]._

_EDIT 3 [GAF is an acronym for those who can't be arsed typing "give a ****"]._


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## bullsneck (4/6/12)

Nothing to do with the :chug: ?


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## WarmBeer (4/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> The three R's --- Reading, W_r_iting & a_r_ithm*a*tic are just the basic building blocks of education. Too much expect? Too lazy to use a spell-checker? You'll let me Know I'm sure.


Without trying to be an ar$ehole, you should probably look up the meaning of irony.


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## bconnery (4/6/12)

WarmBeer said:


> Without trying to be an ar$ehole, you should probably look up the meaning of irony.


 :lol:


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## Greg Lawrence (4/6/12)

WarmBeer said:


> Without trying to be an ar$ehole, you should probably look up the meaning of irony.




Also the capital in Know


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## Maheel (4/6/12)

It's only going to get worse Pete.

Brace yourself as GEN Z and GEN AO make it to adulthood and the workforce.


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## kirem (4/6/12)

WarmBeer said:


> Without trying to be an ar$ehole, you should probably look up the meaning of irony.


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## stef (4/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> Absolutely *NOT* pointing the finger at anyone, but with the declining standards of education basics in Australia I'm sure lots of you have taken note of numerous mis-spellings in posts on AHB over the years?
> All very sad when education in Oz can't even teach the basics even to those with fancy university degrees.
> Plenty of comments coming this way soon I reckon.
> 
> ...




h34r: 

Looks like I was too slow...


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## edschache (4/6/12)




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## beerbog (4/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> Absolutely *NOT* pointing the finger at anyone but with the declining standards of education basics in Australia I'm sure lots of you have taken note of numerous mis-spellings on posts on AHB over the years?
> All very sad when education in Oz can't even teach the basics even to those with fancy university degrees.
> Plenty of comments coming this way soon I reckon.
> 
> ...



I agree Pete, it's not hard to spell correctly. :beerbang:


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## bcp (4/6/12)

Just to play devil's advocate a little. 
* In 1950s & 1960s, very few people made it to university. Only the top students made it through. 
* If you want to compare university graduates from then and now, it isn't really a good comparison. You're comparing the top echelon then against a large percentage of the population now. I knew a guy back then who was brilliant at maths, chemistry, etc, but couldn't pass Form 6 English (5 attempts), so is just a factory worker. Yet he had the ability to do more with his life. Today he would have been able to get to university and achieve as a chemist or whatever - albeit with poor spelling and grammar that clever people get around. Today he's a factory labourer with poor spelling and grammar. What's the difference? 
* I assume you're not suggesting that those who didn't go to university in the past all had brilliant English. That is patently incorrect. 
* Therefore i'd question whether it's about teaching methodology. 

No-one suggests that we go back to 1960s medical practice. There have been advances in medicine, and in education. I think this whole furphy about modern teaching methods neglecting the three Rs is just a vote-winning urban myth. I don't think it's supported by sound research.

*HOWEVER*
I hate poor spelling and grammar as well. 
And I think teachers have completely failed, in EVERY generation to teach how to use an apostrophe. Since I was a child in the sixties retail shops always put apostrophes in where they shouldn't be, and yet, against statistical odds, managed to leave them out when they needed one.


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## Nick JD (4/6/12)

bcp said:


> Since I was a child in the sixties retail shops always put apostrophes in where they shouldn't be, and yet, against statistical odds, managed to leave them out when they needed one.



Chronic overuse of the comma.


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## bcp (4/6/12)

Nick JD said:


> Chronic overuse of the comma.


  Ad hominem.


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## Rurik (4/6/12)

>


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## TidalPete (4/6/12)

WarmBeer said:


> Without trying to be an ar$ehole, you should probably look up the meaning of irony.



My error & willing to admit it. :lol: 
FYI I did use a spell-checkoer & yes, I just started this thread in a moment of boredom  although I'm quite serious about the absence of literacy in AHB.


TP


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## doon (4/6/12)




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## TidalPete (4/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> Absolutely *NOT* pointing the finger at anyone but with the declining standards of education basics in Australia I'm sure lots of you have taken note of numerous mis-spellings on posts on AHB over the years?
> All very sad when education in Oz can't even teach the basics even to those with fancy university degrees.
> Plenty of comments coming this way soon I reckon.
> 
> ...



Know is corrected to now know.


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## bum (4/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> although I'm quite serious about the absence of literacy in AHB.


How serious?

I wonder if, perhaps, your understanding of the words 'absence' and 'literacy' differ from mine?


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## Truman42 (4/6/12)

Wats much wurs is wen u get emails from ppl an they hav usd text speek in the mesge. Lways maks me lol and I wunda WTF cnt thees peeps spel prply.


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## The Village Idiot (4/6/12)

stef said:


> h34r:
> 
> Looks like I was too slow...




Just way too funny....... :super:


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## white.grant (4/6/12)

There are more functionally illiterate and innumerate people out there then you would think. Runs about 45% of the adult population. And we're not talking reading Tolstoy or working calculus, many people struggle completing forms, writing letters, understanding contracts, splitting a bill, etc. The sad thing is the percentage has been stable for a long time.

Compare that to somewhere like Finland, where there is no literacy problem to speak of.


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## edschache (4/6/12)

I think TP needs a new brewery logo for starting this thread - see attached


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## bcp (4/6/12)

Grantw said:


> There are more functionally illiterate and innumerate people out there then you would think. Runs about 45% of the adult population. And we're not talking reading Tolstoy or working calculus, many people struggle completing forms, writing letters, understanding contracts, splitting a bill, etc. The sad thing is the percentage has been stable for a long time.
> 
> Compare that to somewhere like Finland, where there is no literacy problem to speak of.



Are you sure that Finland doesn't have functional illiteracy issues? I mean, by UNESCO standards Australia & Finland are on 99%, yet I agree with you that the issue is deeper in Australia. What's your evidence that it isn't an issue at all in Finland, comparing apples to apples in terms of definitions? Just interested.


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## TidalPete (4/6/12)

bum said:


> How serious?
> 
> I wonder if, perhaps, your understanding of the words 'absence' and 'literacy' differ from mine?



Differ?
Yankee versus propper proper/correct English? Can't really be bothered doing this again just for you bum.

TP


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## roo_dr (4/6/12)

bcp said:


> Are you sure that Finland doesn't have functional illiteracy issues? I mean, by UNESCO standards Australia & Finland are on 99%, yet I agree with you that the issue is deeper in Australia. What's your evidence that it isn't an issue at all in Finland, comparing apples to apples in terms of definitions? Just interested.



I for one have never heard anyone from Finland complaining about how illiterate their kinsmen were. Argue with statistics at your peril...


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## warra48 (4/6/12)

I love being a spelling Nazi.
Where do I join the party?

PS: I agree with the sentiments of the OP.


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## Bribie G (4/6/12)

I definately loose my patience with some people. There real stupid. Expessionarly when they are using rice gulls.


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## TidalPete (4/6/12)

Bribie G said:


> I definately loose my patience with some people. There real stupid. Expessionarly when they are using rice gulls.


 yore so funy bribee  
Sea yoo thuzday

TP


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## Kingbrownbrewing (4/6/12)

I thought you weren't going Pete....

Jeez your missus is going to be crook at you, 3 boozey days in a week.

Unless yesterday counted as last week....


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## bum (4/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> Differ?
> Yankee versus propper proper/correct English? Can't really be bothered doing this again just for you bum.
> 
> TP


Again? You didn't even do it once. Perhaps you should concern yourself more with content than form. 

I would personally argue that the meanings of the words we use are more important than how we spell them. You obviously feel differently. I'll leave you to it.


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## bradsbrew (4/6/12)

Perhaps those that like to comment on the Linguistic skill levels of their peers should first study their own syntax and morphological abilities


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## Bribie G (4/6/12)

King Brown Brewing said:


> I thought you weren't going Pete....
> 
> Jeez your missus is going to be crook at you, 3 boozey days in a week.
> 
> Unless yesterday counted as last week....



KB I brought you authentic British Indian Restaurant curry to PUBS and you didn't turn up. However I still have some in the freezer I can bring on Thursday B)


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## black_labb (4/6/12)

I tend to go about my everyday life in grunts but that doesn't work so well online.


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## Kingbrownbrewing (4/6/12)

Mate I am hanging out for Winkles, I cant wait to smash some of your curries. I wont be drinking on Thurs though, the people of Queensland need sugar-water legopener and who am I to deny them.....



Bribie G said:


> KB I brought you authentic British Indian Restaurant curry to PUBS and you didn't turn up. However I still have some in the freezer I can bring on Thursday B)


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## jlm (4/6/12)

Some brewers would just have kept schtum.
^^^
Sigh. Lets keep our recent posts free from any mis-spelling (coming soon, correction on my hyphenation......) before throwing around an accusation of illiteracy shall we. From the above statement I'll assume you are not able to read or write.


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## kelbygreen (4/6/12)

I would be one of the worse and TBA IDGAF lol I know what I mean and I know it doesnt make sense (maybe why no one replies to me?) oh well you get that. I don't have to nor do I want to write a novel or some text that it would really matter.


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## bradsbrew (4/6/12)

King Brown Brewing said:


> Mate I am hanging out for Winkles, I cant wait to smash some of your curries. I wont be drinking on Thurs though, the people of Queensland need sugar-water legopener and who am I to deny them.....



So thats why you offered me a cider.................................................aint gunna happen big fella

















































































well not after _one_ cider


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## Greg.L (4/6/12)

I trained as a primary school teacher in the 80s. The fact is most primary teachers are silly girls who have no interest in literacy, and really hate maths. They go into teaching because the mark required is low and they want to work with children.


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## Kingbrownbrewing (4/6/12)

bradsbrew said:


> So thats why you offered me a cider.................................................aint gunna happen big fella
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you know I would ply you with much more alcohol to take advantage of you Brad.....


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## TidalPete (4/6/12)

King Brown Brewing said:


> I thought you weren't going Pete....
> 
> Jeez your missus is going to be crook at you, 3 boozey days in a week.
> 
> Unless yesterday counted as last week....



hoo nose dann? :lol: 
Getting my two-bob's worth out of this thread mate. 

TP


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## bradsbrew (4/6/12)

Greg.L said:


> I trained as a primary school teacher in the 80s. The fact is most primary teachers are silly girls who have no interest in literacy, and really hate maths. They go into teaching because the mark required is low and they want to work with children.



I work in vocational education, don't get me started. The primary and secondary education sector must be restrained within their own rights to allow some of the "positive results". The LLN of some people who have passed their senior certificate is terrible.


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## kevo (4/6/12)

You're absolutely right, what did I read the other day...

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

Apparently that was written around 400BC.

The more things change, the more they were the same - the il/semi-literate just have a louder voice now than ever before. 

FFS - this is a brewing forum.

Kev


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (4/6/12)

I can't respond to this thread, because I can't read what it's about (or hang on, am I supposed to write 'its' - just to keep in line).

I have a kid in Grade 2 and one in Grade 1. My sister is 19, so the gap between us is pretty big, and I saw how bad it degraded between when I went to school and she did, and now I see it more.

No rote learning of times tables since sometime in the 90s - epic fail. She can't figure out 7x8 without a calculator.

With my kids - they spend half a day per week actually doing work. The rest of the time, they stuff around ("free play" seems to be a constant theme) and the teachers send homework that takes about an hour a night (and I have smart kids and a stay at home mum - I don't know how parents of average or slightly dull kids cope or those parents who both work).

My grade 2 girl, who is very sharp (too sharp, unfortunately - but that's another dad-daughter story) couldn't spell basic words to save herself (a very good writer, but you have to interpret the dodgy spelling). By her age, I knew at least up to 7 times tables, and was reading basic novels (thank you Enid Blyton). We did NO homework until Grade 6 and by Grade 8, it was still an hour a night - exactly what my Year 1 and 2 girls both do.

We don't live in an area where the socioeconomic issues of some parents reflect in the way their kids behave in class. Teachers don't seem to spend much time disciplining kids (whereas they did, in the rough area on the Sunny Coast where I grew up), so I'm trying to figure out how they earn more than I do, with 12 week's extra vacation per year.

/rant.

Goomba


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## QldKev (4/6/12)

lolz m8; nuthin wrong wid my edumacation, I wend to tha best skoolz. c u l8tr


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## Wolfy (4/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> The three R's --- Reading, W_r_iting & A_r_ithmatic are just the basic building blocks of education. Too much expect? Too lazy to use a spell-checker? You'll let me Know I'm sure.


Bullshit, maybe in the days before home brewing was legal, but not anymore.
I can't spell and I do not know my times tables, so by your standards I'd be one of the 'uneducated'. My chronic short-sightedness (I can't read even the biggest letter on the chart at the optometrist) was not diagnosed until part-way through my schooling, so by that stage I had missed learning many of the 'basics'.

However, I have multiple university degrees, numerous industry certifications (recognized world-wide), am a qualified secondary maths and physics teacher and adult educator well used to public-speaking. I also touch-type at an insane speed and know how to use a spell checker (including the one built into my web browser), calculator, spreadsheets, databases and all other relevant tools that I need to do most any work, writing or arithmetic that I feel like. Those skills - while heavily based on technology - are more important now, and in the future, than knowing when 'i comes before e' or what 7x8 is off the top of my head. Not knowing the "basic building blocks of education" does not hinder my ability to communicate online or in person and has very little negative impact on my life, however it does not mean that I have display that 'lack of education' with misspellings or typing in text-speak.


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## bradsbrew (4/6/12)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Teachers don't seem to spend much time disciplining kids (whereas they did, in the rough area on the Sunny Coast where I grew up), so I'm trying to figure out how they earn more than I do, with 12 week's extra vacation per year.
> 
> /rant.
> 
> Goomba



It's probably more that they are not allowed to discipline, much the same as parents are not allowed to be parents.


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## InCider (4/6/12)

Pet hates in spelling and pronunciation: 

arks, axe instead of ask
ay?, aye? instead of eh?
negoshiate for negotiate
asterix for asterisk 
etsetra for etcetera 
Queenslander for drivers who don't indicate


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## InCider (4/6/12)

bradsbrew said:


> It's probably more that they are not allowed to discipline, much the same as parents are not allowed to be parents.



You slipped through.


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## JDW81 (4/6/12)

I'm at medical school with people who can't even formulate a coherent sentence (on paper or verbally). I'm not pretending my grasp of grammar (or the lexicon for that matter) is perfect, but geez. How these people got through the entrance exam is beyond me. 

You should hear Mrs JD crack on about the poor use of language. Bloody subeditors/proofreaders, they think they're experts.  

JD

P.S. Happy to have all my errors (both grammatical or otherwise) pointed out.


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## bradsbrew (4/6/12)

InCider said:


> You slipped through.



Check out the latest FB pic of the family going down the viking flume at sea world. was going to send it to parent of the year award :lol:


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## Clutch (4/6/12)

I failed English in high school.I went on to sub-edit for two national magazines, and I sometimes write for the hell of it.I also married my English teacher's daughter, who is now an English teacher and published author herself.I have ADD, and flog the pair of them at Scrabble.
Ooh look, something shiny.


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## Maheel (4/6/12)

check this winner :lol: 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/home-beer-/2709...=item3f1855b3d3

"home beer"

it is from a pub it comes with 2 sems wot hold 2 taps each does not come with tap and comes with gas gagers all as you will need is a chiller and a keg and mybe some air line and your away tex me if you would like pic happy biding


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## InCider (4/6/12)

bradsbrew said:


> Check out the latest FB pic of the family going down the viking flume at sea world. was going to send it to parent of the year award :lol:



Baa Bra told me - bloody brilliant.. shh! I think I can hear DOCs knocking at your/you're/yore door :lol:


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## Clutch (4/6/12)




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## white.grant (4/6/12)

bcp said:


> Are you sure that Finland doesn't have functional illiteracy issues? I mean, by UNESCO standards Australia & Finland are on 99%, yet I agree with you that the issue is deeper in Australia. What's your evidence that it isn't an issue at all in Finland, comparing apples to apples in terms of definitions? Just interested.



It's not an issue in Finland because they recognise that it is an issue and have applied resources to address it. When looking at the Unesco stats (lies, damn lies and statistics B) ), you need to understand that different countries apply different definitions to literacy and apply different methodologies to the testing in those samples. 

The CIA world factbook lists the following disclaimer on Australia's 99% and Finland's 100%

_This entry includes a definition of literacy and Census Bureau percentages for the total population, males, and females. There are no universal definitions and standards of literacy. Unless otherwise specified, all rates are based on the most common definition - the ability to read and write at a specified age. Detailing the standards that individual countries use to assess the ability to read and write is beyond the scope of the Factbook. Information on literacy, while not a perfect measure of educational results, is probably the most easily available and valid for international comparisons. Low levels of literacy, and education in general, can impede the economic development of a country in the current rapidly changing, technology-driven world._

I think that means that they are a bit rubbery!


Australia's own data quotes a rate of non functional literacy at about 45% - to quote from the ABS "Literacy skills are becoming increasingly important in contemporary Australian society. In 2006, just over half of Australians aged 15-74 years had adequate or better prose (54%) and document (53%) literacy skills" (I don't expect this to change much when the latest census data is released)

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/Lo...0Chapter6102008

Finland have a focused program on addressing reading skills in place for a couple of decades now and according to various studies from the EU, PISA and others, rank very highly in the results. It's not because Finns are necessarily better readers than everyone else, its because they have applied the resources to helping people overcome their problems. In short Finland has adopted a very positive approach to reading, lots of libraries, free books for students, great support for those who struggle with reading. And this is in a very small country that in the 70s and 80s ranked very poorly in literacy outcomes.

In terms of direct comparisons, the Nationmaster website is interesting, and you could just as easily plug in Sweden or Norway to get some perspective
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Austra...nland/Education

Then this is worth reading 
http://www.nea.org/home/40991.htm

Both Australia and Finland (and 25 other developed countries) are participating in the PIAAC http://www.oecd.org/document/7/0,3746,en_2...1_1_1_1,00.html so some directly comparable data should be available in a couple of years.


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## spudfarmerboy (4/6/12)

Wolfy said:


> Bullshit, maybe in the days before home brewing was legal, but not anymore.
> I can't spell and I do not know my times tables, so by your standards I'd be one of the 'uneducated'. My chronic short-sightedness (I can't read even the biggest letter on the chart at the optometrist) was not diagnosed until part-way through my schooling, so by that stage I had missed learning many of the 'basics'.
> 
> However, I have multiple university degrees, numerous industry certifications (recognized world-wide), am a qualified secondary maths and physics teacher and adult educator well used to public-speaking. I also touch-type at an insane speed and know how to use a spell checker (including the one built into my web browser), calculator, spreadsheets, databases and all other relevant tools that I need to do most any work, writing or arithmetic that I feel like. Those skills - while heavily based on technology - are more important now, and in the future, than knowing when 'i comes before e' or what 7x8 is off the top of my head. Not knowing the "basic building blocks of education" does not hinder my ability to communicate online or in person and has very little negative impact on my life, however it does not mean that I have display that 'lack of education' with misspellings or typing in text-speak.


You sound really smart, but can you brew a decent beer?


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## kelbygreen (4/6/12)

I thought I was bad till this guy from the UK started talking to me I think he was being a smart ass but I couldn't tell. 

It was along the lines of this! 

o u tik u r s tuf u r a pus wif a stp hd cz u r a mth fkr dmb fuk. 

I asked him to repeat what he just told me and it was something like this.

cnt u undrstd eng u stp fuk wy dnt u fuk off ten cz u r gy

and thats no word of a lie well it wasnt word for word but every word was abbreviated into like 3 letters or less lol


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## Rob S (4/6/12)

Language changes over time. It's just changing quicker now than ever before. If the idea of communication is to get your meaning across, then spelling & grammar becomes less important.


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## kelbygreen (4/6/12)

Yeah thats true but it takes me longer to shorten words down then it does to type the whole thing. I guess that is because you are used to typing it a certain way and to do it different it takes longer to think how to do it lol


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## argon (4/6/12)

I used to have the responsibility of reading CVs for job applications. As soon as I would come across a spelling mistake... Binned it.

Nothing to do with getting one's message across. It's about pride in your communication and not coming off like a retard.


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## kelbygreen (4/6/12)

yeah but even with spell check you can get things wrong as most are US or UK spell checks and some things are spelt different in both and some are spelt different here. Maybe that's the reason I applied for 69 jobs and got a call back on 2 lol. Still didn't get any of them 2 jobs. I ended up getting a offer of 3 jobs from 3 previous employees though and they where the only 3 employees that I ever had in NSW so goes to show that my work is a hell of a lot better then my spelling, Every person I have worked for would employ me again in a second if they had work. I have guys in QLD asking me to go back up there to help them but I have a family down here and rather stay here. 

I cant talk or type to well but I have pride in my work and I have always found it hard to get work threw a CV. All I have got I rock up and they say when can you start?


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## Wolfy (4/6/12)

spudfarmerboy said:


> You sound really smart, but can you brew a decent beer?


Occasionally I manage.


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## bcp (4/6/12)

Grantw said:


> It's not an issue in Finland because they recognise that it is an issue and have applied resources to address it. When looking at the Unesco stats (lies, damn lies and statistics B) ), you need to understand that different countries apply different definitions to literacy and apply different methodologies to the testing in those samples.
> 
> The CIA world factbook lists the following disclaimer on Australia's 99% and Finland's 100%
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. Interesting I did some post-grad studies VET so was somewhat aware of the Aus situation, but i've mostly focused on third world stuff. 

Of course, Australia is systematically undermining our TAFE system, I assume because there are no votes in old policies. The short-sighted inability of the Aus government to see beyond the next election cycle is more than a little frustrating.


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## petesbrew (4/6/12)

I was in general english all the way through High School, so I can't say anything. Actually I can say something cos this is the internet.
I have trouble spelling vvaaccuumm. It's the one word I can never spell properly. And grammar, I'm bad at that too.
But I can spell bier.


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## kelbygreen (4/6/12)

yeah I was always told not to spell words how they sound. I am like why have silent letters??? why cant ph be f? why do they need silent letters! I dont get it they tell you to spell it out how it sounds but its not spelt how it sounds! lol 

eleFant!
Fone! 


Oh got like and lick mixed up a few times! weird when you write I lick you  I lick you alot!


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## bum (4/6/12)

argon said:


> Nothing to do with getting one's message across. It's about pride in your communication and not coming off like a retard.


Sure, in the context of a CV. Beer board? Maybe not as important.

An amusing aside - my wife always leans pretty hard on attention to detail in her CV (she's a picky bitch) anyway, last 2 times she's sent her resume out she's left 'track changes' on. Told you it was amusing, hey?



petesbrew said:


> But I can spell bier.


Well played.


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## jyo (4/6/12)

I'm very interested to know just how many *parents* actually read to their children these days. How many parents ask their kids what the hell they did at school during the day? In some of the schools I have worked at, that answer is not many. When I ask students what they did on the weekend I am met with a majority of "Played Playstation, went on Facebook or "Watched T.V."

My mum taught me to read simple words and spell and write my own name before I reached school. That's what we've done with our little girl. My dad (who is almost illiterate) taught me to add and made me a multiplication tables chart. I had to learn the ******* things. 

Kids need a strong Literacy and Numeracy basis _before_ they reach kindy. They need to be taught at home to value books, to be literate in handling books and using vocabulary. There needs to be dialogue at home. 

We see children in year 2 and 3 (without any diagnosis of dyslexia or global development delay etc) who can barely write their own name or count to 20 on a number line. I'm sorry, but that needs to happen at home as well as in the classroom. I die a little when in a year six or five class I have students who don't know what a narrative (fairytale) is and can't add 80 and 20. I fight a tough battle everyday...

As far as discipline goes, I've been spat on, bitten, kicked, punched, assaulted with sticks and rocks,called EVERY name you can imagine. Suspension just gives those involved a break and the student a bit of a holiday. Expulsion (in the public system) can be a long and drawn-out process... I do actually enjoy my job!

edit- spelled stuff wrong


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## TidalPete (4/6/12)

jyo said:


> I'm very interested to know just how many *parents* actually read to their children these days. How many parents ask their kids what the hell they did at school during the day? In some of the schools I have worked at, that answer is not many. When I ask students what they did on the weekend I am met with a majority of "Played Playstation, went on Facebook or "Watched T.V."
> 
> My mum taught me to read simple words and spell and write my own name before I reached school. That's what we've done with our little girl. My dad (who is almost illiterate) taught me to add and made me a multiplication tables chart. I had to learn the ******* things.
> 
> ...



Best response so far jyo. I was lucky enough to have family that taught me the basics well before I started school & I like to think I did the same with my three boys, the one with children doing this as well & following family tradition in encouraging them to join a library at as early an age as possible. 

Not trying to be 'Holier than Thou' but how many parents can be bothered with the hassle of doing this these days? I count myself fortunate to still be relatively literate despite the odd mistake in my declining years which I put down to too many beers consumed. h34r:
This will be my last post on this thread. 

TP


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## TidalPete (4/6/12)

But not perhaps my last post on this thread after all.

I note that one of the moderators in his infinite wisdom has moved this thread away from 'All Latest Threads' on the top right-hand side of the main page & struggle to find a reason why?

*Interested in knowing the moderator's name & his reason for doing this?* <_< Will we ever know? I doubt it very much, but then, life is full of suprises.  

TP


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## bum (4/6/12)

Probably because it was moved to the correct forum.


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## Bizier (4/6/12)

Grantw said:


> [...]
> Compare that to somewhere like Finland, where there is no literacy problem to speak of.


Finnish is quite different to English, you learn it verbally, and because it is phonetic, it is easy to pick up the written component as an extension.

But their education system is also markedly different to ours.

The thing that shits me is that I find the volume of bad spelling and grammar I encounter negatively affects my own, and makes me doubt things I learned in primary school.


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## TidalPete (4/6/12)

bum said:


> Probably because it was moved to the correct forum.



And what forum is that bum?

This thread started in 'the Pub' --- *General Chit-Chat* and Brew related questions --- & there it should remain unless there is something vulgar or offensive about it which so far there is not.

I'll always be one of your biggest fans bum. Your name says it all! :lol: 

TP


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## newguy (4/6/12)

The situation is much the same in Canada. I have 11 and 9 year old daughters, presently finishing up grades 5 and 3 respectively. The education system's focus has morphed from demanding a minimum level of competence (both in student achievement and in teacher performance) to something that demands that all students be recognised as "special" and treated as such. To compensate, what the schools omit, I provide.

Just this past week there was a front page newspaper story (which ran for 3 days in various forms) regarding a high school teacher who had been suspended for assigning zeroes to students who didn't hand in assignments. This was contrary to the school division's "no zero" policy....a zero may discourage the poor lazy dears, you see. Can't have that.

Off topic slightly, but related: watch the movie "Idiocracy." Fiction, but eerily prophetic.


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## Wolfy (5/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> And what forum is that bum?
> 
> This thread started in 'the Pub' --- *General Chit-Chat* and Brew related questions --- & there it should remain unless there is something vulgar or offensive about it which so far there is not.
> 
> ...


It's now in *Off Topic* : Anything Non Beer related put it in here. 

Unless you can explain how a thread about 'Illiteracy In Oz' is a '_Brew related question(s)_' it's easy to see why it belongs in '_Anything Non Beer related_'.


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## pk.sax (5/6/12)

I don't think things have changed drastically. I suffer from mildly dyslexic typing, unless I slow down, its all rather messy, I'd skip letters, add spaces in the wrong places, put letters in the wrong order.

But then, I learn to write by hand. I still make no spelling mistakes when writing by hand. When typing, I have to go back and check it. When I was in sort of middle school I could count the number of kids in the class that gaf about language skills with half the fingers on one hand. Even fewer that showed any evidence of touching a book other than their textbooks. I honestly think it is inherited. My parents encouraged it, gave me a prod in the right direction and off you go. I think partly through year 6 or something I stopped going to my local library and switched to the state library because the local didn't have anything left I was interested in. These days... well, there are way too many distractions. I still manage to read a few every month, would I if I had grown up speaking/writing txting language?!

Good communication skills come from absorbing what you read/hear and applying that into your own efforts. That is almost like saying, if you can learn IM language, you can learn English, or anything for that matter. As long as you can express effectively all that you have to say and respond to all that is asked of you. If you read Citymorgue's fat thumbed posts, you can tell that he applies sentence construction very well and the garbled spellings hardly distract from the effectiveness of what he is saying.

I think what is more annoying are the ones that have no clue how to put together a sentence and throw together a few words missing 'joining' words that make it all make sense. In essence, the opposite of evolving a language into a clearer, more structured form of communication. Missing the 'proper' words, they end up putting together made up words to do the same job. Again, it confuses others and doesn't portray any intelligence but infact, there is an entire new dialect being developed! Alas, in today's connected world, there are barely any geographical barriers that encourage the growth of distinct variations to language.

Which leads us back to threads like this. Whinging about the language of those that are meantally in caves of their own. There.

Thank you for reading, this was fun and took a while.


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## bum (5/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> I'll always be one of your biggest fans bum. Your name says it all! :lol:


Warms the very cockles of me 'eart, that does. I believe SOCs are our nation's must undervalued resource so recognition from you is tremendous validation.

Wrong forum. You admit this thread made in a moment of idle trolling. You're lucky it wasn't deleted entirely.

Also, there are clearly stated rules about questioning a mod's decision in this manner - perhaps you would like to _read_ them?

[EDIT: such a thread in which to make a typo!]


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## white.grant (5/6/12)

bcp said:


> The short-sighted inability of the Aus government to see beyond the next election cycle is more than a little frustrating.



That is a very large part of the problem.


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## Barley Belly (5/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> Illiteracy In Oz, ever noticed this trend?



Do you mean the mythical land of Oz (as in The Wizard Of Oz). Or, do you mean Australia?


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## petesbrew (5/6/12)

jyo said:


> I'm very interested to know just how many *parents* actually read to their children these days. How many parents ask their kids what the hell they did at school during the day? In some of the schools I have worked at, that answer is not many. When I ask students what they did on the weekend I am met with a majority of "Played Playstation, went on Facebook or "Watched T.V."
> 
> My mum taught me to read simple words and spell and write my own name before I reached school. That's what we've done with our little girl. My dad (who is almost illiterate) taught me to add and made me a multiplication tables chart. I had to learn the ******* things.
> 
> ...


I read to my kids every night. They enjoy it, and it settles them down so I can go and enjoy a beer in peace.
I'm always visiting the library, but I'm picking up more kids books than adults these days as they love flicking through them.
Our daughter is learning how to read in kindy at the moment and it's great watching her skills progress day by day.


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## Dave70 (5/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> Absolutely *NOT* pointing the finger at anyone but with the declining standards of education basics in Australia I'm sure lots of you have taken note of numerous mis-spellings on posts on AHB over the years?


Whilst I'm sure this trend exists, I'm afraid my note taking skills were blunted by years of public education and TAFE.

Can you please express this trend in the form of a time plot graph.


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## Maheel (5/6/12)

jyo said:


> I'm very interested to know just how many *parents* actually read to their children these days. How many parents ask their kids what the hell they did at school during the day? In some of the schools I have worked at, that answer is not many. When I ask students what they did on the weekend I am met with a majority of "Played Playstation, went on Facebook or "Watched T.V."



Being both a parent (5YO) and a educator it's interesting that even with the "national curriculum" there are massive differences in what schools are doing across the suburbs.

My 5yo is doing sight words and readers (at home) currently in prep and she can read a simple story and sound out words. (State school) My wife or I read to her every day both the school books or other. If she asks me a question I often pick a sight word from my answer and spell / sound it out after I answer.

Other kids I know in prep are not doing readers or sight words at home. (Both state and private) Most of the kids can do simple maths but I think literacy is more important in the very early years to begin with. Teachers should have the ability to modify and change curriculum as they need but such vast difference seems strange to me. 

I do relief work mostly in high schools and personally I think the introduction of laptops into classrooms might be more negative than positive. Normally I spend half a lesson checking that students are not social networking or gaming in the classroom. Very little is actually written down and revised and the pace of the required curriculum even stops what I would call deep learning / understanding of information. There are also so many internal and external distractions in education impacting on actual teaching time, students spend so much time out of normal lessons they are supposed to be in doing "extracurricular" activities. 

Just the other day I had a Yr10 class where there were no exercise (hand written) books. At the end of the class they handed back the "project workbook" so that it would ensure it was there for the next lesson. No expectation of doing any homework on the project.... This in my opinion impacts students ability to actually read, write and retain information.

My english and grammar is crap, its something I am constantly working on as well....

Someone made a comment about "silly girls" becoming teachers a few pages ago? You sir are a arse-hat :angry:


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## Malted (5/6/12)

kelbygreen said:


> yeah I was always told not to spell words how they sound. I am like why have silent letters??? why cant ph be f? why do they need silent letters! I dont get it they tell you to spell it out how it sounds but its not spelt how it sounds! lol
> 
> eleFant!
> Fone!



Yeah let's all go to Thailand! First stop Phuket.


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## bum (5/6/12)

Maheel said:


> I do relief work mostly


I could use some relief. You do reduced rates for the brewerhood?


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## pk.sax (5/6/12)

I disagree entirely with the view expressed ont he use of silent and multi letter sounds.

Their pronounciation is ever slightly and even greatly different from the 1 letter equivalents depending on the word and placement in the word.

The english alphabet is fairly crap at covering the sounds humans emit. The language rules make up for it fantastically as long as people take the effort to actually use the language. Longer words keep falling in disuse and the subtleties keep getting washed out.

for example, fy and phy sound quite different, the fy is typically at the end of the word, its short and overtaken by the y. phy would be a candidate for putting in the beginning or middle of a word, the emphasis (note the ph) is squarely on the ph, the sound is quite literally the middle of p and h, not f.

PS: Primary teachers ARE silly girls


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## InCider (5/6/12)

bum said:


> I could use some relief. You do reduced rates for the brewerhood?



Are you saying we're lacking in the trouser department bum?


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## bum (5/6/12)

Homebrewer's droop.


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## bradsbrew (5/6/12)

TidalPete said:


> But not perhaps my last post on this thread after all.
> 
> I note that one of the moderators in his infinite wisdom has moved this thread away from 'All Latest Threads' on the top right-hand side of the main page & struggle to find a reason why?
> 
> ...



Aargh, that be me Pete, me earty. Me changed it to be in the "off topic" thread as that where she belongs ye scoundrel. And (shiver me timbers sentences cannot be starting with and) I be noticing that sending her off to the off topic section has not stopped the chin wagging. This be a brewing forum.

Excuse the pirate voice I am just getting in character for tonights book with the kids. Just as my wife or I do each night. Sight words and spelling are made into learning games in this house. Can't wait for the math learning to kick in. In my opinion being able to solve problems and the need to find the answer is way more important than a simple spelling mistake on a beer forum.

Hang the book has just been changed to Dora.

Ola

Cheers


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## goomboogo (5/6/12)

bradsbrew said:


> Aargh, that be me Pete, me earty. Me changed it to be in the "off topic" thread as that where she belongs ye scoundrel. And (shiver me timbers sentences cannot be starting with and) I be noticing that sending her off to the off topic section has not stopped the chin wagging. This be a brewing forum.
> 
> Excuse the pirate voice I am just getting in character for tonights book with the kids. Just as my wife or I do each night. Sight words and spelling are made into learning games in this house. Can't wait for the math learning to kick in. In my opinion being able to solve problems and the need to find the answer is way more important than a simple spelling mistake on a beer forum.
> 
> ...



I thought it must have been September 19 already.


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## InCider (5/6/12)

goomboogo said:


> I thought it must have been September 19 already.



More like Doda the Exploder.


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## jyo (5/6/12)

bum said:


> I could use some relief. You do reduced rates for the brewerhood?



I've never done relief but I'm willing to have a go.



bradsbrew said:


> Hang the book has just been changed to Dora.
> 
> Ola
> 
> Cheers



Swiper is such a thieving prick!

Comments above re the National Curriculum. It's currently being released in phases and in WA we are not required to report on it until next year I think. We are currently implementing certain subject areas in stages. There are some similarities to the older Curriculum, so I am told.

All in all, I really like it. Clear structure, clear objectives/pointers for student achievement and easy to follow. 

Don't get me started on Outcome Statements.


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## WarmBeer (5/6/12)

bradsbrew said:


> Hang the book has just been changed to Dora.
> 
> Ola
> 
> Cheers


Who do we ask when we want to know where we're going? Say "map"! Say "map"!

Cross the bubbling kettle. Jump over the pool of vomit. And make our way to the misty fermenter!


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## bum (6/6/12)

Yumyumyyumyum. Delicioso!


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## Malted (6/6/12)

InCider said:


> More like Doda the Exploder.


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## InCider (6/6/12)

Malted said:


> View attachment 55037



_boom_-tish :lol:


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## QldKev (6/6/12)

Malted said:


> View attachment 55037




Who else finds Dora hot


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## WarmBeer (6/6/12)

QldKev said:


> Who else finds Dora hot


ummm...


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## .DJ. (6/6/12)

QldKev said:


> Who else finds Dora hot



ahhhh... No. :blink:


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## Malted (6/6/12)

QldKev said:


> Who else finds Dora hot



Nyeah, maybe:



and on another note:


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## InCider (6/6/12)

Malted said:


> Nyeah, maybe:
> View attachment 55045
> 
> 
> ...




My Dora ate all the pies


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## manticle (6/6/12)

My dora ate your dora


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## rotten (6/6/12)

Dora later in life


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## rotten (6/6/12)

Dora after she meets one of you guys


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## kevo (7/6/12)

Not sure if this thread is now refuting or confirming the OP!!

:lol:


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## Dave70 (7/6/12)

Dora travels to America search of a better life.


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## Malted (7/6/12)

Dave70 said:


> Dora travels to America search of a better life.




Or that was the plan, but things didn't quite go that way.

She immigrates to America:




And gets some work that is ok at first:



But leads on to other more serious things:



That eventually catch up with her:


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## bum (7/6/12)

Racism is funny.


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## Dave70 (7/6/12)

bum said:


> Racism is funny.




No. Racism is ignorant and stupid.

If this constitutes racism, then they should pull Family Guy off the air post haste.


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## bum (7/6/12)

Dave70 said:


> If this constitutes racism, then they should pull Family Guy off the air post haste.


Funny you should mention that show. I swore I'd never watch it after one of the writers tweeted (twat?) that the Fukushima reactor disaster was fitting revenge for Pearl Harbour. It is a fairly hollow oath, however, since I don't watch TV anyway.

And, yeah, those images are entirely racist (excluding the FHM one and the following one).


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## Clutch (13/6/12)

How Mr Hill teaches grammar. NSFW.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Youre-****/320891331279152


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