# Co2 Leaking - Had Enough



## DarrenTheDrunk (22/2/21)

Hello Fellow Brewers

As the title implies…no… it is in fact explicit… I have almost had enough of leaking Co2 in my Kegerator X purchased from my local HBS. Please allow me to cut to the chase simply because I am so pissed off. I now have lost the gas 4 times in a 6kg C02 bottle having re “plumbed” completely every time the gas fricken leaks out…and on bottle 5 just now…. *“very bad language”*

It is my opinion that it is those quick connect “T” and joiners as I go through a fair few kegs and there is a fair bit of “keg movement” so it is possible these joins leak as being “stressed” during keg moving. Now there is a very very dear “brewing Consultant” who I will raise this with but having seen his set up, it would have cost more than my humble home.

Question/comment – Unless advised otherwise, I want to go back to the old “heat the tube and push like “F” at every join” fittings. I will feel like 10 rounds with Mike Tyson but I have no doubt that bastard wont leak. Can anyone offer any support/disagreement/suggestions…but no insults please…I got a bit carried away last time this happened!!

TIA…” _there has to be a better way”_

DTD


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## golfandbrew (22/2/21)

Have you found the leak? If not you're just speculating and going to make yourself more upset if it happens again.
Same cylinder or exchanged for a different one each time? Maybe it's the cylinder and not the connections after all. 
If you are set on changing your lines and connections, I've used both 4mm and 5mm evafresh line. The 4mm won't go on without some effort but the 5mm are pretty easy. Let them warm in hot tap water.


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## DarrenTheDrunk (22/2/21)

Fair question GaB. No I have sprayed the best soapy water I know everywhere and can not find it but having said that, I did the last time, in a desperate attempt, install a 4 way gas valve which was pretty hard to test as such. I could say this is the problem but there is only so far my pension and blood pressure will allow. Whilst it may be the issue THIS TIME...who knows what the next time. Thanks for your heads up on the 4/5 mm line(that is ID I think). The physical effort is insignificant compared to the emotional distress...

I am hopeful for some other opinions for therapeutic reasons
Cheers

DTD


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## Skillz (22/2/21)

I havent and won't use those push ins, don't trust them at all, in saying that I don't trust anything to do with leaks so I turn my gas off after every session lol


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## DarrenTheDrunk (22/2/21)

Thanks Skillz...You can tell just how quick I reply to yours and the previous comment that I am desperate for solutions. My local HBS said the same but it concerns me that if , while waiting 6 weeks for the beer s gas and "mature", if there is a very very small leak in 1 of the kegs, the beer would be buggered by not maintaining the right amount of Co2. I do not disagree with you at all but my "philosophy is to prefer to fix the problem (leak) and not deal with the symptom (turn off gas)...but then again...One is getting a tiddle bit pissed off with my bloody philosophy


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## Dorz (22/2/21)

I've lost a couple of cylinders recently and found out it was one of my kegs which mustn't be sealing properly on either the lid seal or gas post seal... I Lubricate posts each time, use genuine CMB disconnects and on the gas side, barbs and crimps. Could it be a keg? 

I always prefer barbs on the gas side, and usually John guest fittings on the beer side but have thought about going back to barbs on that too.


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## S.E (22/2/21)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> while waiting 6 weeks for the beer s gas and "mature",


Darren, if you are waiting 6 weeks for the beer to mature with bottled co2 perhaps you should try priming and naturally conditioning your beer and only use your bottled gas to dispense it at low pressure?


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## DU99 (22/2/21)

my gas is barbed and has hose clips... have a lost gas before,also checked your disconnects seals


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## Outback (23/2/21)

for the same reason as you I won't usr push in fittings. I got some good quality 4m id for beer line to shorten them up, and used the clips. Never will I forget the pain and anguish of shoving a Mack truck up a drink straw, but I have no leaks, whereas before, it was a matter of which push in was leaking.


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## Nullnvoid (23/2/21)

I usesd to use push fittings, now only use them for liquid. Will not use for gas as I couldn't find any leaks but I had leaks as I lost 2 gas bottles. Put in SS MFL connections and hey presto, no more leaks.

As others have said, you need to assess the whole system. Kegs (lid, posts, ball/pin locks). Line (any fitting, t-pieces, joins, anywhere it goes from tube, to connection). Regulator (from the line to the connecting device)

As long as there is still gas in the keg, you won't ruin the beer by turning the gas off at the bottle. However I agree with you, that it's better to solve the problem of leaking gas in the first place and not creating a bandaid solution.


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## razz (23/2/21)

Good morning Darren, it looks like you have most of it covered in terms of leak detection. You haven't talked about the regulator in your system. It may be worth trying a borrowed reg and see if that resolves the problem.


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## Grmblz (23/2/21)

Hi Darren, for gas: stainless barbs and clamps (not hose clamps but the round things that you squeeze to seal) for liquid it doesn't matter what you use as you will see the leak.
Painless way to fit the line to the barbs: put line in boiling water to soften then jam a pair of needle nosed pliers into it, and "open" the pliers to stretch the line.
I don't trust those little gas manifolds, just use "T's"
Always spray soapy water onto the keg lid after gassing it up, it will sit in the groove and any leak past that big "O" ring will be obvious, replace post "O" rings and always lube them when connecting stainless disconnects (ditch any plastic ones)
Finally, get a second gas bottle and use it to condition any newly filled keg, that way if there's a leak on your dispensing system it will be obvious, just turn off the gas at the end of a session and if the gauge drops over night then you have a leak, this wont work if you have "conditioning/maturing" beer connected as the beer will be absorbing gas, you only need to do this after you have connected or disconnected a keg.


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## fw00r (23/2/21)

Just chiming in to say that I was surprised to find a leak from the top of my ball lock post disconnect. It was resolved by tightening the thing down.
Have since switched to stainless and barbed but might be worth checking.


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## Jez (23/2/21)

I’ve lost tanks of gas due to leaking keg posts also


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## Grmblz (23/2/21)

The ultimate answer is to go commercial, the consensus is A-type couplers (German sliders) are the best as there's no hole in the keg for stuff to collect in.
I decided to switch late last year, prices are not too different, and there's a ready market for cornies.
Cleaning can be done by simply unscrewing the spear, or you can fabricate something similar to the commercial cleaners (for me that's a work in progress) Meddo built a cleaning station I believe.
If you have really had enough of bloody ball lock disconnects and cornie "O" rings have a look.
Just a thought, there are "adapters" available that screw onto commercial couplers enabling ball lock disconnects to connect to them, handy whilst you transition from one system to the other but my advice is bite the bullet and do the job in one hit, the adapters are just another point of potential failure, and the whole object of the exercise is to get rid of the disconnects/posts and "O" rings, also use barbs on the couplers not push in fittings.


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## Uncle Ed (23/2/21)

I have found that the new pressure release valves do not seal on older lids. luckily I had some older vales and they worked,


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## Klosey (23/2/21)

Gidday Darren,

I have posted on this forum my frustration with leaking gas and in my situation using a commercial keg with an A coupler. Have gone through 3 x 6 kg gas bottles in very quick time. I have used all the soapy water tricks with nothing to show. I even bought another A coupler to try and solve the problem. Went back to basics and retighten all the connections, even though the soapy spray bottles yielded no clues. I am thinking there might be a problem with the actual spear in the commercial keg. Not sure how to tell or fix it.

appreciate your frustration


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## philrob (23/2/21)

You have my sympathy, empathy, and condolences.
Your problem is one of the reasons I stick to bottling. Unfortunately, your problem seems to afflict too many brewers from time to time.
I'm retired, so time is not an issue for me in bottling. 
Having said that, son-in-law is a happy kegger.


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## Grmblz (23/2/21)

Hi Klosey, have you replaced the seals in the keg? No seal lasts forever.
I used these things for years back in my Landlord days and never had a problem, it's one of the reasons I've switched from ball locks.


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## Klosey (24/2/21)

Grmblz said:


> Hi Klosey, have you replaced the seals in the keg? No seal lasts forever.
> I used these things for years back in my Landlord days and never had a problem, it's one of the reasons I've switched from ball locks.


Have checked out sites on U tube but can’t find much information on how to disassemble an A Type keg spear to replace seals


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## Klosey (24/2/21)

Klosey said:


> Have checked out sites on U tube but can’t find much information on how to disassemble an A Type keg spear to replace seals


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## Klosey (24/2/21)

I don’t think my problem is with the seal on the right photo. But rather the black seal on the top. When I removed the coupler gas leaked from the top which wasn’t happening before hand. Trust this makes sense.


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## zoigl (24/2/21)

I only brew ales and heffeweizens.
I had problems with a 4 way gas splitter. I put in a water trough, it was easy to see the leak, I would not use them now. 
I use spunding valves, be warned these leak as well. I have replaced the grey PRV's with red PRV's which should??? release the pressure around 2 bar. I use 150 gms of dextrose as a primer in each keg which ferments at room temp for 14 days. I release the fermenting pressure manually with the spunding valves1 or 2 times a day. Then put the kegs into my fridge set at 7c until I am ready to tap it, usually about 8-10 weeks.


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## Grmblz (24/2/21)

Klosey said:


> Have checked out sites on U tube but can’t find much information on how to disassemble an A Type keg spear to replace seals


OK, I'll assume you've never taken one apart, commercial kegs have an anti tamper device that prevents the removal of the spear, this vid shows you how to remove the spear and then grind off the tab so that next time you need to remove it, it's a simple matter of just unscrewing it. 
For christs sake if you do follow this method make sure you depressurise the keg in future before unscrewing the spear, there's a couple of other things you need to be aware of, PM sent.


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## Klosey (24/2/21)

Thanks Grmbiz,

Have seen this one. Had my two kegs given to me from my son who had removed the anti tampering device before giving them to me. I have no idea how old they are. Could be years and years so have decided to replace them completely. Thanks for your PM advice taken.


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## MHB (24/2/21)

This might help. There is a better picture in the attachment.
There are only two serviceable parts in the keg. The CO2 Valve and a gasket between the spear and the keg body.
If the CO2 valve is at issue you will find it easily enough by pressurising the keg and putting some soapy water on the top of the valve.
The Gasket requires removal of the spear which isn't all that hard if you think ahead and get the right tools together first. No doubt there are lots of YouTube vids out there. This one isn't too bad How to open "A" type stainless steel keg for homebrew!! One tip, remove the gasket before you cut the safety tag off, a grinder or the sparks from it can stuff the rubber gasket pretty quickly. Funny enough I to have a pair of pliers with a bit of grinding done to them just for pressing down the CO2 Gasket and grabbing the spear.
I find the gasket is rarely a problem unless you are removing the spear regularly, if you are get some spare Gaskets opening and closing kegs will use them up a lot faster.
I just spoke to Linkon at Keg Services, he has them in stock and is willing to supply home brewers. Looks like you would be paying about $1 each plus postage, probably a minimum of 10 to make it worth their time. Must say the guys at Keg Services are doing some great work and are very good to deal with.
Mark




That's the same Tube as I linked to (slower than Grumblez).
M


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## JDW81 (24/2/21)

Hey Darren,

Losing CO2 is frustrating and expensive, particularly if finances are a bit tight. The leaks can also be hard to track down.

When I had to solve my leaks I looked from the gas bottle all the way to the keg (including a good interrogation of the lines).

Soapy solution or starsan (which is what I used) is a good way to test your lines. The other way is connect your gas disconnects and pressurise it (they shouldn’t let gas escape unless attached to the gas post on the keg) and submerge in water. You can do the same with all of yoUr connections as well. I wouldn’t submerge your regulator though (but it’s also a place where leaks can occur).

Also make sure your disconnects are connected properly and aren’t loose. They can be “sealed” when you test them, but if they spin/move when you close the fridge then they can leak (which is where my leak was happening). If they’re ball lock, they should be universal, but don’t always fit snugly.

Also like others have said, replace your seals/O-rings/make sure your PRV’s aren’t leaking, lubricate everything well with food grade lubricant and turn off your gas between sessions to be sure (if your kegs are sealed they will hold pressure).

Is there someone locally who can help you? I’m not in Geelong any more so won’t be much use, but there might be another Geelong based kegger who’s willing to help out.

Good luck mate.

JD


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## Klosey (24/2/21)

Thanks Grmbiz,

Have seen this one. Had my two kegs given to me from my son who had removed the anti tampering device before giving them to me. I have no idea how old they are. Could be years and years so have decided to replace them completely. Thanks for your PM advice taken.


MHB said:


> This might help. There is a better picture in the attachment.
> There are only two serviceable parts in the keg. The CO2 Valve and a gasket between the spear and the keg body.
> If the CO2 valve is at issue you will find it easily enough by pressurising the keg and putting some soapy water on the top of the valve.
> The Gasket requires removal of the spear which isn't all that hard if you think ahead and get the right tools together first. No doubt there are lots of YouTube vids out there. This one isn't too bad How to open "A" type stainless steel keg for homebrew!! One tip, remove the gasket before you cut the safety tag off, a grinder or the sparks from it can stuff the rubber gasket pretty quickly. Funny enough I to have a pair of pliers with a bit of grinding done to them just for pressing down the CO2 Gasket and grabbing the spear.
> ...


thanks Mark


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## DarrenTheDrunk (25/2/21)

razz said:


> Good morning Darren, it looks like you have most of it covered in terms of leak detection. You haven't talked about the regulator in your system. It may be worth trying a borrowed reg and see if that resolves the problem.




Thanks Razz. I will add a comment down below. cheers


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## DarrenTheDrunk (25/2/21)

Klosey said:


> Gidday Darren,
> 
> I have posted on this forum my frustration with leaking gas and in my situation using a commercial keg with an A coupler. Have gone through 3 x 6 kg gas bottles in very quick time. I have used all the soapy water tricks with nothing to show. I even bought another A coupler to try and solve the problem. Went back to basics and retighten all the connections, even though the soapy spray bottles yielded no clues. I am thinking there might be a problem with the actual spear in the commercial keg. Not sure how to tell or fix it.
> 
> appreciate your frustration




It aint bloody easy Klosey... I just want to brew and drink. Philosophically it should be ever so easy but....


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## DarrenTheDrunk (25/2/21)

Grmblz said:


> Hi Klosey, have you replaced the seals in the keg? No seal lasts forever.
> I used these things for years back in my Landlord days and never had a problem, it's one of the reasons I've switched from ball locks.


hey me ol mate. When you say "ball locks", do you mean the ones that are often used on commercial kegs


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## DarrenTheDrunk (25/2/21)

Well thanks so much for the replies. I had young Zak from the Geelong Home Brew shop (who is not on this site) come around today once I said I am going to get rid of those bloody push connectors. Like a true "customer service" bloke he came to my place, checked it all for me and we are on a bit of a mission to see WTF is going on. As a side issue, this is why it gets up my nose when people buy on ebay or where ever to save a few dollars when you get this type of service from local business. I started my own pet and aquarium business 25 years ago and you would not believe the front of some people who waste hours of my time getting advice on, say a filter...then buying it on line. GRRrrrr I am out of it now but... SUPPORT LOCAL BUSINESS. Thanks young Zak. Between my fellow AHB colleagues and I, I still do not have faith in those push fittings but as respect for Zak, I most certainly and going to go through the process. My God...I got in to this hobby because I love the act of making beer and other drinks myself as I just love the varying flavours etc etc . No need to convince any of you. OMG isnt it so much more complicated but apart from the cost of losing so much gas (30kg thus far), the challenge is pretty cool I must say. Anyway...thats where it is and will no doubt update you when there is something useful to tell you. Thanks again all


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## Grmblz (25/2/21)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> hey me ol mate. When you say "ball locks", do you mean the ones that are often used on commercial kegs


HeyHo, long story short, Landlord back in the day, started to homebrew with bottles, commercial stuff just not available, came to Oz in 85, and discovered "hb kegs" paid $350 EACH for second hand coke cornies, commercial stuff in 20L just not available, 2004 went to PNG for 10yrs (that's a whole different story) came back and BOOM! the whole Chinese thing had taken off, got back into it and after 5/6 yrs of pissin around with Chinese HB gear (leaks, poor QC etc) suddenly remembered my old days of just hooking up a keg, and having it work. If nothing else the Chinese have provided competition in what was a closed market with ridiculous prices, so now you can get a commercial 20L keg made in Germany for about 20% more than a Chinese one, and 80% less than what it would have cost 20yrs ago (if you could buy just 4 or 5) It's the only reason I didn't look into it earlier.
So commercial it is, superior system designed to be abused, and idiot proof (hands up who hasn't tried to put a gas disconnect on a liquid out post or vice versa) no more sticking disconnects/gas leaks whatever, just hook it up and away you go.
NOW! my old coke cornies and stainless disconnects (from memory the disconnects were about $50 each) are still 100% reliable given proper maintenance, and user error taken out of the equation, BUT! my new stuff, kegs, disconnects whatever are the items that give me grief, I'm not knocking Chinese stuff out of hand, I have a bespoke Chinese still that is fabulous, but I paid a lot of coin for it, ya gets what ya pays for.
So I'm back to the good old days of commercial stuff made in Germany, cost approx 20% more than the Chinese gear but no QC issues.
To my mind the old US made kegs and components never had the issues we see today, just a pity they have all gone.
If you consider going down this road just remember that cheap Chinese commercial kegs and couplers may suffer from the same issues as cheap Chinese cornies and disconnects.
So much for the short answer LMAO, No mate, "ball locks are what you are using (and I was/am)
Search for A-type coupler/keg (the other common one is D-type but that's not a great idea for HBer's)
For a "proper" commercial keg check out "keg services" all round good guys and happy to supply small numbers and remove the tamper devices on the spears.
Or give us a bell, it's been a while.
Cheers G


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## MHB (26/2/21)

Just two quick points
Quote
_So commercial it is, superior system designed to be abused, and idiot proof (hands up *who hasn't tried to put a gas disconnect on a liquid out post or vice versa*) no more sticking disconnects/gas leaks whatever, just hook it up and away you go. _
Only when pissed.

Quote
_For a "proper" commercial keg check out "keg services" all round good guys and happy to supply small numbers and remove the t*amper devices* on the spears. _
Agree about Keg Services - good guys
The "tamper devices" are in fact a safety feature, it stops the spear getting ejected into your face if you try to unscrew it while there is pressure in the keg. I remove them from all the kegs we use. Just be careful unscrewing the spear, some have a gas vent cut into the thread (good) some don't (not so good).

Commercial equipment tends to be way better quality, true it costs a bit more and until recently smaller than 50L was very hard/expensive to get, these days not so much.
I know people south of here tend to think all kegs have Sanky well type tops (Carlton et al), but the type A slider is really the best for small/home brewing.
Mark


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## DarrenTheDrunk (27/2/21)

Be Geezus Graham. While I quickly glanced at your post where you said " 5/6 years pissin". I thought you were saying your spent 5/6 years is "prison". Thank christ I read your post in detail...!!! 

While I am posting, an update on the leaking Co2. I disconnected all gas lines from the kegs and left the system under 40psi over night without any loss of gas. Lowered the gas and connected the gas but checked every connect first and voila ... a buggered 'o' ring on one of the kegs. Replaced this and no more leaks. I learned a better way and a 'routine' to check for leaks from Zak from Geelong Home Brew so hopefully you will NEVER see a post from me about leaks...yeh...sure...


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## Grmblz (27/2/21)

Glad you have a resolution mate, I know just how frustrating it can be, till next time


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## duncbrewer (4/3/21)

I followed this thread with smug satisfaction and there but for the grace of god go I and sympathised with Darrens' woes.

Then looked at my CO2 cylinder and realised it had a big drop in pressure on the cylinder side. 

Could I have a leak I thought? Took all the tubes and lines out checked thru as advised above, immersed in water for bubble check and might have found the leak . I changed the tube into a T splitter ( duotight) and have reconnected and I think all is well with a less floppy arrangement of the five T tubes and connections for five kegs.
Not so smug now!


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## JimInCollie (10/12/22)

S.E said:


> Darren, if you are waiting 6 weeks for the beer to mature with bottled co2 perhaps you should try priming and naturally conditioning your beer and only use your bottled gas to dispense it at low pressure?


That's what I do. I naturally carbonate my kegs and let them condition at room temperature for 4-6 weeks (they get up to 25-35 psi). Then I put them in my keezer for 2-3 days, not connected to gas or beer-line. The pressure drops to 12-15 psi @ 2-3 DegC. I then hook the keg up to CO2 at dispensing pressure (13psi) and leave them another week or so to settle down. And then I go for the perfect pour!

I always turn my gas cylinder off between sessions, and on again just before the first pour after a break.
I've chased down gas leaks in the past, testing everything from the gas bottle to the keg disconnects and all the connections in between. My system is good now. With no cylinders connected there is no gas leak!  However, as I connect up all 6 kegs in my keezer I find evidence of a minor gas leak and it can only be in one or more of the kegs themselves. I use a mixture of Corny kegs and PET kegs and I am wondering if the plastic kegs 'seep' a tiny amount of gas over a period of time?

Cheers, Jim
@JimInCollie


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