# Tanglehead Brewery - What Happened?



## hughman666 (3/6/08)

was in albany over the weekend and went to the pub on saturday.

i must say i was really disappointed. of the beers that were available on tap, 2 were undrinkable. :angry: 

the pale ale tasted like it had just been kegged, it was so green, the bittering hops stuck out like dog's balls. plus it was really murky, i bet this had left the fermenter all of a day prior.

not deterred, i moved on to the pilsner - talk about a butterscotch cocktail. the diacetyl in this was so strong, you could smell it with the glass a good foot from your face.

i tried explaining to the bar staff what was wrong, but they weren't interested.

i'm not sure what is going on at this place but it looks like they either aren't letting the brews ferment through their natural course, not conditioning them or it's just poor quality control.

whistling jack, come on and hurry up with your brewery, tanglehead need the competition!


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## kirem (3/6/08)

oh no, not again!


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## brendanos (3/6/08)

Quick, somebody say something nice about them before the brewer reads this and bitches about us on a different beer forum again!

I've only tried the packaged beers, and regardless of quality, $75 for a six pack of 9.1% beer is a bit rich.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (3/6/08)

Nice location


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## dig (3/6/08)

Did you drop in at any of the others micros down that way Hugh? I was in Margaret River for the long weekend and slunk by Colonial and Cowaramup on the way home. Looks like Duckstein at Sarasin Estate is still not open....


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## hughman666 (3/6/08)

no i didnt get time, we just went straight to albany and back, no side trips.

i am looking forward to catching up with jeremy at cowaramup next time i'm down that way though. it will be interesting to see how colonial goes with a new brewer, i'll be checking that out too, hopefully the kolsch stays up to scratch.

funnily enough with all of these micros springing up, i still find the old bootleg brews to be consistently tasty...particularly the settlers pale, a personal favourite  



dig said:


> Did you drop in at any of the others micros down that way Hugh? I was in Margaret River for the long weekend and slunk by Colonial and Cowaramup on the way home. Looks like Duckstein at Sarasin Estate is still not open....


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## mika (3/6/08)

I've not been impressed by the beers at Bootleg, thought Colonial was doing a much better job. Didn't care much for the Cowaramup's efforts last time I was down there either. Nice kinda setup, but all seemed a bit bland and with the wrong kind of tastes for the styles, but there were a bunch of people there drinking it up, so might just be me.


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## dig (3/6/08)

Had a pretty good dry stout at Cowaramup. Dry, roasty, stout-like... pretty good.


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## brendanos (4/6/08)

hughman666 said:


> funnily enough with all of these micros springing up, i still find the old bootleg brews to be consistently tasty...particularly the settlers pale, a personal favourite



Yeah I'd have to agree, it's one of my local favourites, and one I always return to... though I find the bitterness can get a bit too pungent/resinous after a couple.

The JJ's Pale is another contender for me, not many english PA's around with that much bitterness.

Has anyone tasted the Mad Monk IPA yet?


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## brendanos (4/6/08)

Oh and I forgot the Feral Tusk! I think my table must've gone through at least half a keg of that on Monday. The bar manager wanted to know which brewery we were from!


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## spog (4/6/08)

brendanos said:


> Quick, somebody say something nice about them before the brewer reads this and bitches about us on a different beer forum again!
> 
> I've only tried the packaged beers, and regardless of quality, $75 for a six pack of 9.1% beer is a bit rich.


$75.00 for a six pack, are you for real.no joke$75.00/6.cant be right.........cheers....spog...........


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/6/08)

Us West aussie drinkers are spoilt with to many choices.There are some good , some not so good but Im glad we have the range to taste to make comparisons.Some start bad and come good others start bad and stay that way.Better than no choice at all , like 10 years ago.Give them all a go and go with the brew you like.Feral is my choice for a good range of beers, and always changing the menu. :beerbang: 
I have not tasted Tangles beers and will not comment until they invite me for a taste.
GB


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## hughman666 (5/6/08)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Us West aussie drinkers are spoilt with to many choices.There are some good , some not so good but Im glad we have the range to taste to make comparisons.Some start bad and come good others start bad and stay that way.Better than no choice at all , like 10 years ago.Give them all a go and go with the brew you like.Feral is my choice for a good range of beers, and always changing the menu. :beerbang:
> I have not tasted Tangles beers and will not comment until they invite me for a taste.
> GB



the main issue i have with tanglehead is the consistency. the pale ale has been good in the past, but not this time. they had a blueberry wheat beer which was great earlier this year but it was a seasonal and not there now. the pils has always been hit and miss, the stout mainly good. either way, the actual venue is great, good varied entertainment, nice food and nice atmosphere, they just need to get that consistency going and if i get an invite to go and check out the brewery, i would be more than happy to have a look and learn.


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## sinkas (26/6/08)

Drank the Pils at Clancy's at Canning Bridge last eve: diacetyl dot com.


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## big_alk (26/6/08)

hughman666 said:


> was in albany over the weekend and went to the pub on saturday.
> 
> i must say i was really disappointed. of the beers that were available on tap, 2 were undrinkable. :angry:
> 
> ...



Been watching this thread and waiting for an opportune moment to reply (especially after reading the discussion on Grand Ridge)...

We have had some consistency issues with our English pale ale, especially in the last couple of months and mainly due to yeast health problems, (thanks Australia Post).
We have also been trying to improve the malt/hop balance and body.
My personal preference has always been for the bottle conditioned version over the filtered draught version and we have therefore stopped filtering the pale ale altogether. I feel the residual yeast gives the beer a better mouthfeel and body.
The batch described above was over 3 weeks old and the second half of a double batch that had been cold conditioned for at least 2 weeks. The batch after that, which is on now, and also available in bottles, is fermented using a different yeast strain and is a big improvement. Unfortunately it was not ready in time for the PRBS.

In regards to my pilsner, I am really concerned at the continual references on this forum to over the top diacetyl. I do everything I can within reason to reduce the production and increase the absorption of diacetyl during fermentation of this beer and it is generally lagered for 3-4 weeks before serving (all I can reasonably manage in my environment).
The batch refered to above is one that was also sent to Melbourne for the AIBA, and would have been greener than the beer hughman tasted. It didn't win any medals, but of the 5 judges who tasted it, there was only one mention of "slight diacetyl" in the notes. The main comments were that it was "too thin" and "not bitter enough" for the pilsner class it was entered in.
The pale malt we use has a slight honey flavour and maybe this is what is being mistaken for excessive diacetyl?
Each to their own, I had a German travel agent customer on the weekend who absolutely hated my hefeweizen (gold medal, 2008 PRBS) but said the pilsner was the "best beer he had tasted in Australia"!

In regards to "Old White Hart", my (very) limited edition 9.1% barleywine. This beer was brewed in February 2007 and is the result of 4 fermentations. It is an all-grain beer (no extract) and we had to boil for 6 hours to get the sugar concentration we needed. The starting gravity was a whopping 30 plato (1.120). The beer was hand bottled and we only ended up with 1000 x 330ml stubbies to last us until we brew the next one. The excise, due to the high alcohol content, was excessive, and had to be paid up front, as soon as the beer was to be bottled. We didn't start selling the beer until it had been conditioned for 6 months and it didn't really start to develop its flavours until after 12. 
Beers like this are not cheap to brew and package. its not a beer you go and buy a 6-pack of, unless you are planning to drink one now and cellar the rest.
If you want Australian brewers to produce beers like this, in the current excise regime, you need pay for them.
I kept the price $15/bottle as low as I could and its still questionable whether I make any money off this beer. (not that I am directly comparing my beer with Thomas Hardy, but I think that is priced at $20/250ml bottle). So far, it has received 2 bronze and 1 silver medal, not bad for my first effort, surely?

Allan 
Tanglehead


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## Beer Guy (26/6/08)

Hey Allan very balanced reply. With regards to Diacetyl it can come at you from a few angles and it maybe worth sending some beer to Swan or ECU labs for analysis to put the matter at rest because I must admit I have shied away at times from this product due to the overpowering buttery nature. 

It must also be noted that many aspects of beer production involves formation and reduction of diacetyl here is some things to think about though the rest costs $80 an hour though  

If it is indeed malt driven than that flavour will remain quite stable over time as opposed to other sources of diacetyl. 

Yeast strain can play a huge role highly flocculant lager yeast strains will leave behind noticable levels of diacetyl for example whilst powdery yeast strains that take time to settle through lagering will be much better diacetyl reducers.

Oxidation can form diacetyl in the presence of precursors in the beer.

Most cases of diacetyl almost always trace back to yeast health particulary if you are doing a fair amount of re-pitching

Fermentation profile times and length of diacetyl rest

Richo the brewery-less brewer.


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## randyrob (26/6/08)

big_alk said:


> In regards to "Old White Hart", my (very) limited edition 9.1% barleywine. This beer was brewed in February 2007 and is the result of 4 fermentations. It is an all-grain beer (no extract) and we had to boil for 6 hours to get the sugar concentration we needed. The starting gravity was a whopping 30 plato (1.120).




Hello Allan,

the barley wine must have finished very high if it started at 1.120 and ended up being 9.1% right?

i'm guessing something like 1050?

(1120-1050)*0.13=9.1% (give or take bottle conditioning)

Cheers Rob.


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## mika (27/6/08)

Concentrated boil Rob, I think ?

$15/330mL bottle is starting to get fairly exy, but then I'm sure we've all payed more for beer and as Crown are wanting to charge $65 for one bottle of their crud, I'd choose the Barleywine. We all know that the excise laws are silly, so any Australian brewer wishing to push the alcohol limits should be applauded.

I'll have to wander down to Albany and check this out I think.


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## bconnery (27/6/08)

The thing about barleywines, the Anniversary ales, etc is that they cost more money to make. More ingredients, storage time before release etc. 
What you get as a consumer is a beer that, if made well, has a level of complexity that will be very interesting now and should only increase. 
While I would love our excise laws to have an overhaul I also think that we have to change our attitude to beer and it's pricing. 

$15 a 330ml equates to very approx. $40 a bottle, which many people would say is only the beginnings of where you get decent wine. 
I don't agree, I think you can get good wines much cheaper than that, but you get where I am coming from. 
That is the sort of level I think we need to be thinking. A beer like this, and I haven't tasted the one in particular but if it is a well made barleywine, should be thought about in that context. It is a complex drink that is every bit, if not more, interesting than a quality wine. 

If the quality of the beer isn't up to scratch, then it isn't worth the money, but if it is, then I would see it as being priced where it has to be, and where it should be for what it is.


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## randyrob (27/6/08)

mika said:


> Concentrated boil Rob, I think ?
> 
> $15/330mL bottle is starting to get fairly exy, but then I'm sure we've all payed more for beer and as Crown are wanting to charge $65 for one bottle of their crud, I'd choose the Barleywine. We all know that the excise laws are silly, so any Australian brewer wishing to push the alcohol limits should be applauded.
> 
> I'll have to wander down to Albany and check this out I think.



ahh yes i forget about the constraints of space / equipment at these places thank you mika, thats what i'm here for to learn.

also i believe ibs have it for sale, if u wanna share a bottle let me know as i've only tried it when it was very young.

Cheers Rob.


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## mika (27/6/08)

In fully sic Chullora mate - at the moment. Back on Sunday arvo, would happily share a bottle or two, whatever :icon_drunk:


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## brendanos (27/6/08)

randyrob said:


> i've only tried it when it was very young.



I'll bring one along to the next "alcoholics meeting" if you want to see how it's going 17 months since it's birthday (i'm guessing somewhere between 6 and 12 months in the bottle?), though even now might be a few years too soon. I'd say something like Thomas Hardy certainly needs at least a decade. IMO.


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## Whistlingjack (27/6/08)

big_alk said:


> We have had some consistency issues with our English pale ale, especially in the last couple of months and mainly due to yeast health problems, (thanks Australia Post).
> 
> Allan
> Tanglehead



So, the postman pitches your starters?

What is he doing wrong?

WJ


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## deadly (27/6/08)

consistency would be nice.


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## big_alk (28/6/08)

randyrob said:


> Hello Allan,
> 
> the barley wine must have finished very high if it started at 1.120 and ended up being 9.1% right?
> 
> ...



yep, finished where others start!


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## big_alk (28/6/08)

Whistlingjack said:


> So, the postman pitches your starters?
> 
> What is he doing wrong?
> 
> WJ


a box full of a couple of months of smack packs, a hot March long weekend,...not happy!


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## hughman666 (28/6/08)

Al, my issue with the pale ale and pils at tanglehead are that previously they have been great (see the subject heading), particularly the pale ale. the wheat is always a good one (your best IMHO) and the blueberry wheat that you had on in march was a killer.

what gets me is when i sidle up to the bar with the big expectations and then get disappointed. i know there are consistency issues with all small breweries, i just had really high hopes i guess. anyway, i'm down there each long weekend so will still keep coming back for a few pints on a saturday night, i'm sure you'll work through the issues (yeasts etc). would also like to have a look at the setup too :icon_cheers: 

while i'm speaking of consistency, i was at the royal last week and noticed a distinct shift in the quality of the pale ale and the brown ale. there was no kolsch on tap but the pale and brown were definitely lacking that special ingredient that makes the colonial range so much different from the other micros. it was still nice, just not as good as in previous months...


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## ausdb (28/6/08)

hughman666 said:


> while i'm speaking of consistency, i was at the royal last week and noticed a distinct shift in the quality of the pale ale and the brown ale. there was no kolsch on tap but the pale and brown were definitely lacking that special ingredient that makes the colonial range so much different from the other micros. it was still nice, just not as good as in previous months...


OT I think the problem is that the "special ingredient" at colonial is no longer there, hopefully the new special ingredient will soon stamp his own mark on the bees and they will be up to the high standard they used to be.

On topic, Big_alk interesting to see your comment about smack paks are you just pitching multiple packs per brew or stepping them up?


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## Kai (28/6/08)

ausdb said:


> OT I think the problem is that the "special ingredient" at colonial is no longer there, hopefully the new special ingredient will soon stamp his own mark on the bees and they will be up to the high standard they used to be.



and hopefully that special ingredient will soon be stamping out some more great beer too!


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## sinkas (29/6/08)

Havent you heard Kai, there killer bee's


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## big_alk (29/6/08)

ausdb said:


> OT I think the problem is that the "special ingredient" at colonial is no longer there, hopefully the new special ingredient will soon stamp his own mark on the bees and they will be up to the high standard they used to be.
> 
> On topic, Big_alk interesting to see your comment about smack paks are you just pitching multiple packs per brew or stepping them up?



start with one, grow it up to 1 litre, then up to 10 litre before pitching
(needs a few days - week lead time when we use yeast for the first time) 
plays havoc with the brewing schedule if the yeast isn't tip-top


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## dig (29/6/08)

Hi Al

How many gens are you re-pitching before starting again?


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## Rustyc30 (29/6/08)

One thing I have to say is that there has to be some form of Congrats to Big Alk for coming on making comment and not ignoring comments from customers that many of the micro's seem to be doing. As home brews we tend to expect high standards from commercial micros. If we where to try and get consistent flavors from our systems we may struggle and we only have to deal with 50l at a time. So whilst yes it's disappointing see a once enjoyed brew slip in it's standards i'm sure that it is not from lack of trying from our micros. These guys are trying to make a living aswell it's a bit easyer to tip 50 litters down the drain then tipping 1000l down the drain. I ask whats worse micros that have a bad batch slip out from time to time or have only the big boys piss in a can to drink when you are out of home brew


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## big_alk (29/6/08)

dig said:


> Hi Al
> 
> How many gens are you re-pitching before starting again?



Dig

wheat up to 5 times (barring any obvious off-smells/flavours)
lager (and now ales) using fresh dry yeast each brew
can't afford to be guessing whether or not I can sell the beer

Al


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## Millet Man (30/6/08)

big_alk said:


> Dig
> 
> wheat up to 5 times (barring any obvious off-smells/flavours)
> lager (and now ales) using fresh dry yeast each brew
> ...


Al,

Nothing wrong with the dry yeast! I pitch dry yeast and then reuse once or twice but that is more related to the brewing schedule than any other concerns, with ferment sizes of 72 hL for lager or 36 hL for ales there tends to be gaps in the brew cycle and I'd rather dump the yeast than try to keep it chilled in the cone for more than a week.

I've never tried the Wyeast gluten free strains (1272 and 2206) in the brewery as they have failed when I tried to use them at home (did not fire in wort after a prolonged time to swell), and my brewing is complicated enough without having to add in the need to make starters etc. Dry yeast has given me great consistency, that's for sure.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## big_alk (30/6/08)

Millet Man said:


> Al,
> 
> Nothing wrong with the dry yeast! I pitch dry yeast and then reuse once or twice but that is more related to the brewing schedule than any other concerns, with ferment sizes of 72 hL for lager or 36 hL for ales there tends to be gaps in the brew cycle and I'd rather dump the yeast than try to keep it chilled in the cone for more than a week.
> 
> ...



the brewing schedule dictates how I use my yeast (like you). I store mine under wort in 20 litre fermenters in the cool room, but not for more than 2 weeks if possible
had just been using dry for lager, and didn't brew often enough to store that, will see how the ales go
Al


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## sinkas (2/7/08)

Had the Old White heart last night.
A great beer, really enjoyed it, so thick and rich, 
I baulked a bit at the price though, if it was around $10, I could rationalize it, but at $15, its a bit much.


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## Katherine (2/7/08)

Has anyone tried the xmas ale????


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## randyrob (2/7/08)

Katie said:


> Has anyone tried the xmas ale????




yes both this year's offering and last year's. 

i found last year's to be better, this year's is a bit cloying? and i remember last year's to have more spice? tho i've got another bottle so i'm going to revisit it.

Cheers Rob.


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## Katherine (2/7/08)

MMMM I feel a Clancy session coming on... They have (xmas ale) it in 750ml bottles..... finish of the day with some mulled wine! PERFECT 

Pistol and I had a session on Tanglehead Pils around Easter, both agreed wasnt a pils we expecting but we liked it. We drank it all afternoon (did notice the butterscotch, I said honey) but that was after Matso's Mango Beer (yuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk) not my thing but the mango flavour was fantastic just not in a beer. al little of topic opps


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## big_alk (2/7/08)

randyrob said:


> yes both this year's offering and last year's.
> 
> i found last year's to be better, this year's is a bit cloying? and i remember last year's to have more spice? tho i've got another bottle so i'm going to revisit it.
> 
> Cheers Rob.



yep, it is definitely better after 6 months or so
we are going to brew this year's one in July and let it condition properly before we sell it at Xmas.
like most of our beers, we tweak the recipe a little bit each time we brew. Only problem with the Xmas ale (and the barleywine) is that it only happens once every 12 months!

thanks for the feedback


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## Beer Guy (2/7/08)

Hi Katie slightly OT but I think you should tell the moderators that you are quite clearly not a partial man as the label under your avatar states :icon_cheers:


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## Kai (3/7/08)

Katie said:


> MMMM I feel a Clancy session coming on... They have (xmas ale) it in 750ml bottles..... finish of the day with some mulled wine! PERFECT



Limeburner's stout is pretty stellar off tap at the moment so if you find yourself there let me know and I'll sally on down. Though dare I say it, a limeburner cut half & half with a nail ale is pretty damned good too..


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## big_alk (3/7/08)

Kai said:


> Limeburner's stout is pretty stellar off tap at the moment so if you find yourself there let me know and I'll sally on down. Though dare I say it, a limeburner cut half & half with a nail ale is pretty damned good too..



more kegs on the way!


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## brendanos (5/7/08)

Kai said:


> Limeburner's stout is pretty stellar off tap at the moment so if you find yourself there let me know and I'll sally on down. Though dare I say it, a limeburner cut half & half with a nail ale is pretty damned good too..



An alternate strategy - cut it thirds with Nail Stout and Coopers Special Old (aka 3yo forgotten cellar stash) Stout. I'd definately be in for that.



big_alk said:


> more kegs on the way!



Bring on the longnecks


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## Kai (5/7/08)

brendanos said:


> An alternate strategy - cut it thirds with Nail Stout and Coopers Special Old (aka 3yo forgotten cellar stash) Stout. I'd definately be in for that.
> 
> 
> 
> Bring on the longnecks



aged coopers stout.... another stellar drop. not sure i could bring myself to use something so rare on a three-way blend though.


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## hughman666 (27/7/08)

quick update

just got back from a weekend down in albany and went back to tanglehead. had the pale ale - awesome, very well balanced malt/hop profile. had the limeburners stout, nice again. southern white ale - always good, this time though it was a little "thinner"...still ok but not quite a true hefe. then went to ttry the IPA - all gone, none left!!!

so well done tanglehead, getting better again, just make sure you brew more IPA next time Al!!!!


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## big_alk (31/7/08)

hughman666 said:


> quick update
> 
> just got back from a weekend down in albany and went back to tanglehead. had the pale ale - awesome, very well balanced malt/hop profile. had the limeburners stout, nice again. southern white ale - always good, this time though it was a little "thinner"...still ok but not quite a true hefe. then went to ttry the IPA - all gone, none left!!!
> 
> so well done tanglehead, getting better again, just make sure you brew more IPA next time Al!!!!



thanks,

we've had to change malt suppliers due to the gas explosion up north, so please be patient with us whilst we tweak some of our beer recipes to suit the new malt.

Allan

PS, had a few beers last night at the local Taphouse in St Kilda, nice setup, nice range of tap and bottled beer and great food...well done Steve!


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