# Polyclar As A Kettle Addition



## SpillsMostOfIt (19/2/09)

Looking through the ISPcorp website at the various documents about the Polyclar products, I see that Polyclar Brewbrite is a blend of PVPP and carrageenan, designed as a kettle addition when we (well, I) would normally just add Koppafloc.

I thought I might give this a shot next brew. Anyone tried it?

You have to login to get to the product documentation, but here's where the document is linked from...

http://online1.ispcorp.com/en-US/Pages/bvg...amp;prdId=72452


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## Thirsty Boy (21/2/09)

Just to make life a little easier for people - I have ruthlessly saved one of the papers from the website. Results of a trial of the polyclar brewbrite.

View attachment 24874


Even if your experiment with adding "normal" polyclar doesn't work - I think this product would be a fantastic one for HB shops to stock. 

You dump in a spoonful of this stuff instead of a whirlfloc tab - and you get clearer wort, more wort, better fermentation and higher yeast cell counts, slightly greater attenuation and no chill haze

That's a product I would buy

I too shall give the bathtub method a go and tip in a bit of polyclar to my next boil along with the carageenan ... I'm sure the dose rates would need to be higher because the polyclar is not "micronised" and the carageenean is in a coarser state. But what the hell, homebrew dose rates for things like copper finings and polyclar etc are craploads higher than commercial rates (or at least my mega brewery rates) anyway.

How much can it really hurt and it might work.

Thirsty

edit: forgot attachment

second edit: to post this link which is for those who really want to geek out on the chemistry - the second article is about using PVPP in the kettle to increase levels of foam forming polypeptides int eh final beer - it mentions using both Polyclar brewbrite AND just normal PVPP - and both of them reduce polyphenol levels in the beer by roughly the same amount. So bog standard polyclar should do its job in the kettle, do a bunch of ohter good things, and might help head formation as well. winner.

http://web.sls.hw.ac.uk/icbd/Newsletter/Ne...Autumn_2003.htm


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## hoohaaman (21/2/09)

So has anyone waded thru un numbered pages?


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## hoohaaman (21/2/09)

I recokn thirstys coverd it.


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## hoohaaman (21/2/09)

I luve ab.dude get the houise up


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## Ross (21/2/09)

We looked through all the ISP products before going with Polyclar VT.

Brewbrite actually looked the best all round single addition product, but from memory it only had a 6 month shelf life, making it impracticle to stock on a homebrew scale. I looked through the documentation, but appears they've removed the shelf life from the documentation.
A combination of a good kettle fining & Polyclar with give you very similar results, if not better.


Cheers Ross


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## SpillsMostOfIt (21/2/09)

Yes, Ross - rereading my original post, I clearly wasn't expressing myself very well. I only intend throwing some PVPP with my koppafloc into the boil, once MrsMostOfIt stops finding things for me to do instead of brewing.

You don't seriously think I would spend money on a new idea, do you?


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## Smashin (21/2/09)

I've been using Brewbrite for around a year now and can vouch for its performance. I've had the same batch since ISP sent me the samples and I seams to still be performing as it did the day I received it. 

As for polyclar VT it is not intended for beer it is for preventing pinking and browning in wine and the particle size has been optimised for just that, the addition rate if you wish to use vt as a filter aid for beer needs to be in the order of 5-10 times what is claimed. Don't take my word for it ask ISP for yourselfs. Polyclar effectivness is based on surface area and VT is far to course for efficient use in beer. If you want a straight PVPP filter/stabilizer aid then Polyclar10 is the only choice for home brewers. Even better by far is Polyclar730 which works on both sides of the chill haze equation (phenols and tannins), (edit) Polyclar730 is a blend of PVPP and silica xerogel (fummed silica).

I have been using Brewbrite and Polyclar730 in combination for all my pale beers for some time and woudln't consider changing. Also bare in mind the cost when buying these products they are extremely cheap so don't get ripped off.

happy brewing


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## Darren (21/2/09)

Admittedly, not read the sheets. I thought PVPP would "melt" in the boil as it is insoluble!!

cheers

Darren


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## MHB (21/2/09)

IUPAC name[show]​PolyvinylpyrrolidoneOther names 1-Ethenyl-2-pyrrolidon homopolymer
Poly[1-(2-oxo-1-pyrrolidinyl)ethylen]
Polyvidone
1-Vinyl-2-pyrrolidinon-Polymere
PVP
Crospovidone

IdentifiersCAS number9003-39-8PropertiesMolecular formula(C6H9NO)nMolar mass2.500 - 2.5000.000 gmol−1Appearancewhite to light yellow, hygroscopic, amorphous powderDensity1,2 g/cmMelting point110 - 180 C (glass temperature)

HazardsMSDSMSDS for PVP from EMD ChemicalsExcept where noted otherwise, data are given for
materials in their standard state
(at 25 C, 100 kPa)
Infobox references

A Quick click on Wiki, MP (galss) 110-180 C

Bit hotter than most kettles.

MHB


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## SpillsMostOfIt (21/2/09)

Darren said:


> Admittedly, not read the sheets. I thought PVPP would "melt" in the boil as it is insoluble!!
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



I thought it might kind of deform and/or lose its physical property that makes it work, but having read the manufacturer's sheet and the thing TB found and thought about it a bit more, I figure not. It will certainly get mixed in with the wort better than when sprinkled on top of green beer in the fermenter as I did a couple of days ago and consider it worked very well.

The thing TB found also suggested that I can expect a higher peak yeast cell count in wort treated in this way. That can't be a bad thing.


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## haysie (21/2/09)

I have a bag of polyclar purchased from CB, PITA, so I didnt bother sprinkling my beers again. Now, I may have a need to get rid of it, if using whirfloc koppafloc what dose would you be adding on top of, single batch
.


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## Thirsty Boy (21/2/09)

Smashin said:


> I've been using Brewbrite for around a year now and can vouch for its performance. I've had the same batch since ISP sent me the samples and I seams to still be performing as it did the day I received it.
> 
> As for polyclar VT it is not intended for beer it is for preventing pinking and browning in wine and the particle size has been optimised for just that, the addition rate if you wish to use vt as a filter aid for beer needs to be in the order of 5-10 times what is claimed. Don't take my word for it ask ISP for yourselfs. Polyclar effectivness is based on surface area and VT is far to course for efficient use in beer. If you want a straight PVPP filter/stabilizer aid then Polyclar10 is the only choice for home brewers. Even better by far is Polyclar730 which works on both sides of the chill haze equation (phenols and tannins), (edit) Polyclar730 is a blend of PVPP and silica xerogel (fummed silica).
> 
> ...



VT works well enough, because most homebrewers aren't adding it as a filter aid, in fact they choose VT _because_ of its large particle size which means it can easily be settled out rather than filtered out, the majority of homebrewers not being filterers - the recommended dose for homebrewers is quite a bit higher than you would use with PC 10 or 730, and there is the fact that the contact time is (especially if not filtering) is a great big chunk higher than it would be with PC being dosed into the line pre-filter.

I use PC 10 because I have access to it and I filter - and I often blend it with some silica gel to emulate the whole PC730 thing. I get away with a fair bit less than I would use if I was using VT - those products are remarkably effective, as is either in isolation. But the VT works perfectly well.

Plus an easier ask for HB shops ot stock, the product being used by both homebrewers AND winemakers. Much more chance of turnover. 

I do like the boil option a lot though and I guess it will become my preferred application method for polyclar (assuming it works as expected)

Haysie - I would have a look at the study and see what dosage they used - otherwise I will just be using my "normal" dose + a little for the higher volume in the kettleand seeing if it works.


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## dig (21/2/09)

I have used BrewBrite commercially with very good results. All the stuff that ISP claims AND, anecdotally, less hop tannin impact in big, hoppy beers. I got good results at 8g/hl; a fair bit lower than the 15g recommended. It's not cheap though... Might be good for a bulk buy/divvy up.


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## Gough (22/2/09)

dig said:


> I have used BrewBrite commercially with very good results. All the stuff that ISP claims AND, anecdotally, less hop tannin impact in big, hoppy beers. I got good results at 8g/hl; a fair bit lower than the 15g recommended. It's not cheap though... Might be good for a bulk buy/divvy up.



FWIW we use Brewbrite in all our beers and very happy with the results.
Similar rates to what Dig quotes above...

Shawn.


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## Steve (22/2/09)

haysie said:


> PITA, so I didnt bother sprinkling my beers again.



What were you doing with it. Why was it a PITA?


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## The King of Spain (22/2/09)

So if you are using VT would you (1) still prepare the same way (ie <5 C and stirred for however long) and (2) would you bother using it again when you are cold chilling?

Edit: Spelling


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## Ross (22/2/09)

To get the most out of your Polycar VT add to the chilled wort post ferment. you are wasting it adding to the boil.

Cheers Ross


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## Thirsty Boy (22/2/09)

well, not wasting - perhaps using a little more than you might if you had polyclar 10 or the brewbrite in question

Polyclar VT is PVPP just like all the other PVPP we are talking about, and works exactly the same way - its just that it has a lower surface area per unit of weight. However, added to the boil, it will have a MUCH longer contact period than added to a fermenter post chilling, so that will go quite a way to compensating. VT isn't the ideal stuff, stuff, but there is no reason it wouldn't still work perfectly well.

Reading the links and attachments I posted, will let you see that one of the advantages of putting the polyclar in the boil, is that the boiling of the kettle does a sufficient job of hydrating it, so you wouldn't have to hydrate/agitate for the normal period. I might be tempted to stir it into a cup of wort outside the kettle though - tipping a powdery, high surface area substance straight into you kettle can result in a bit of foaming - which might make a mess, or at least stick half the product to the sides of the kettle rather than have it in the wort where its supposed to be.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (23/2/09)

Well, I perhaps wasted 5grams of Polyclar VT yesterday.  

Of course, it remains to be seen what will happen and it might not work as well as I might hope because I combined that experiment with Thirsty Boy's cube-hopping idea. I added my FWHops as I lifted the bag and then did nothing until T-10minutes when I made my single kettle addition of koppafloc, yeast nutrient and Polyclar. I added my combined bittering/flavour/aroma/chill-haze hops to the cube calculated from a 20minute addition just prior to decanting the wort to cube. Whether or not the Polyclar that made it into the cube has enough interest in any haze-forming compounds seeping out of the hops is at point here.

The action of the boil seemed to wet down the powders nicely so nothing seemed to attach itself to the kettle - the kettle was not noticeably harder to clean than normal. I *thought* that when I finished whirlpooling the wort looked clearer than I would normally expect, but that could be down to any of a number of reasons, including the relative lack of hop matter and wishful thinking.

I can't find anything from the manufacturers of Polyclar to suggest the difference between the various products is anything more than granule size and what they add to it. So, if PVPP is chemically identical (which it is by definition), and its physical properties are the same across the product line (ignoring the additives, which in this case is koppafloc), the only difference I can see is its effectiveness in any given situation due to its particle size.

But to prove this, rigorous experimentation is required. Oh dear...


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## haysie (25/2/09)

i added 2 grams with my normal kettle finings at 10 min, i added a further 1.5 gm stirred with some drawn off wort at 2 min. For mine, the break didnt look any different, I didnt see any more wort or shite in my kettle or fermenter than i normally would (plate chilled),i stirred it up and didnt allow it to stick to the walls although the initial dose chunked up. i`ll monitor the beer, wait n see, IMO, no kettle finings does just as well IF you have patience, whirlpool wait 30 minutes with a lid on the kettle come back run off, clear with a solid break. But, I gotta use that bag of VT, and i am not going to swirl and rehydrate til the cows come home. PITA.


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## dr K (25/2/09)

TB's comments, especially read in conjunction with the data sheet he downloaded make a lot of sense.
I have spent some time over the last 12 months thinking and reading about colloidal stability, particularly in relation to polyphenols. Brewbrite certainly seems to be an attractive and effective general purpose clarifying and stabilizing product.
My current regime is simply Whirlfloc in the last 5 minutes, crash cooling and gelatin works well enough not to vary but I am fascinated by Brewbrite.

K


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## Cortez The Killer (25/2/09)

Sorta on topic

I forgot the whirlfloc addition in my last batch (usually at 10 mins) - didn't realise until the cube was just about full

So I chucked it in the cube and hey presto! still crystal clear beer 

Cheers


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## rude (25/2/09)

jeez no chill haze cortez ?


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## Thirsty Boy (25/2/09)

The proteins that are responsible for "chill haze" aren't the main ones precipitated in the boil - with an inadequate hot break you might get protein haze... but it would (probably) be a more permanent haze and not temperature dependent. The proteins that make for chill haze are a different length and the haze is a result of complexing with polyphenols. The proteins by themselves aren't big enough to see.

Kettle finings such as whirlfloc aren't necessary for bright haze free beer... they are just an insurance policy. You will get a "better" hot break and less likelyhood of protein haze... that doesn't necessarily mean a lesser hot break, just from the boil, would not be good enough by itself. Belt AND braces.. just to be sure.

The polyclar... kind of like making sure you have on clean undies... just in case both the belt and the braces don't do the trick.

Haysie - boil additions aside - you don't "need " to agitate and rehydrate the polyclar VT. You just get more bang for your buck if you do. Sprinkle a tablespoon or two (say half again the recommended dose) of the stuff on top of your fermentor at the end of fermentation and by the time its crash cooled and you are ready to keg, it'll have done its job.

Darren chastised me about how unnecessary it was to rehydrate Polyclar - and on reflection I realized he was right, hydration is about the speed and efficiency with which the polyclar does its job. More powder and more time - and the effort can be reduced. I have been sprinkling on top of my fermentor since Darren shoved me (ungently) towards my epiphany. Not a whiff of chill haze


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## haysie (26/2/09)

:icon_offtopic: 
TB, previously adding to the top of chilled wort, i had a brown .2mm of dark protein, very small amount, left me wondering what was this protein that now lay on a healthy yeast cake, i thought plastic and threw the cake. i reckon it would be hard work to get it out of a slurry/starter and the long term plastic thing?
? Is this stuff healthy, detrimental or otherwise for yeast. ? 6 month shelf life
Haysie


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## dr K (26/2/09)

> Kettle finings such as whirlfloc aren't necessary for bright haze free beer... they are just an insurance policy. You will get a "better" hot break and less likelyhood of protein haze... that doesn't necessarily mean a lesser hot break, just from the boil, would not be good enough by itself.



TB..stop being naughty, you know that "Hot Break" occours early on in the boil (before 100C usually) and you know that Whirlfloc/Irish Moss etc are added well after the hot break has completed , in fact in the dieing minutes of the boil and are used to help the so-called cold break.

K


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## Online Brewing Supplies (26/2/09)

dr K said:


> TB..stop being naughty, you know that "Hot Break" occours early on in the boil (before 100C usually) and you know that Whirlfloc/Irish Moss etc are added well after the hot break has completed , in fact in the dieing minutes of the boil and are used to help the so-called cold break.
> 
> K


Yep Whirlfloc just adds a net like "Net" to bind all those hot breaks together so it forms a nice jelly fish in the bottom of the kettle.I cant see it working on the cold break l, I can say from experience.I always end up with cold break in the fermenter, but I chill into the fermenter not pre chill in the kettle, thats the way my system is designed.PVPP is a good insurance policy for chill haze, yet isinglass will also remove chill haze if used at the right time and drop any yeast as well.
GB


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## Online Brewing Supplies (26/2/09)

haysie said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> TB, previously adding to the top of chilled wort, i had a brown .2mm of dark protein, very small amount, left me wondering what was this protein that now lay on a healthy yeast cake, i thought plastic and threw the cake. i reckon it would be hard work to get it out of a slurry/starter and the long term plastic thing?
> ? Is this stuff healthy, detrimental or otherwise for yeast. ? 6 month shelf life
> Haysie


I my opinion I would not (I dont) be re using any yeast after you have used PVPP, Gelatine or Isinglass.Would you use a condom twice?
GB


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## Thirsty Boy (27/2/09)

dr K said:


> TB..stop being naughty, you know that "Hot Break" occours early on in the boil (before 100C usually) and you know that Whirlfloc/Irish Moss etc are added well after the hot break has completed , in fact in the dieing minutes of the boil and are used to help the so-called cold break.
> 
> K



See Gryphon's reply above as to why you aren't quite correct - I thought I was perfectly clear about the fact that kettle finings weren't necessary for an adequate hot break, they merely make it work better.

Sure, the actual precipitation of the protein from solution might mostly happen before the wort even gets to 100, but that's not the whole story with hot break formation - a chunk of what people think of when they refer to hot break, is the flocculation and settling of that protein... which the kettle finings does assist.

I'm with Gryphon in that I don't see a particularly large connection between cargeenan and cold break formation - maybe the same as hot break, helps it floc and fall?


Gryphon - the article I posted actually talks about the presence of PVPP increasing yeast activity and peak cell count. So I don't know if it actually would be all that bad to re-use yeast with a bit of PVPP in it. The Polyclar Brewbrite is a commercial product, I'm just imagining that there wouldn't be much call for a commercial additive that stoped breweries re-pitching their yeast.

Still - on a homebrew level, no need is there? Just grow a new pitch from a very small amount of yeast - virtually no worries about crossover then.

TB


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## SpillsMostOfIt (27/2/09)

ISPCorp make a re-usable form of PVPP, which they suggest cleansing with a caustic solution. I'm assuming that with such a regime, you remove all the stuff that has attached itself to the PVPP and make it a bit more sanitary. That would be good if you were buying your supply in 44-gallon drums...

So, if (and I have no intention of doing so) you wanted to reuse the PVPP and followed the manufacturer's recommendation, it probably would not harm subsequent yeast pitches, such as you might see in a commercial brewery.

(Again) so, the only harm I can see from repitching the yeast combined with used PVPP (apart from anything connoted from used condoms) would be from that stuff that attached itself to the PVPP in the prior use if it did anything at all. However, it does seem that you are now carrying a lot of extra stuff around with your yeast and I would have to wonder if it is really worth it when you look at what monetary value you are really saving.

I threw 8grams of Polyclar VT into a double (46 litre) batch of Special Bitter yesterday which is about to have some yeast thrown at it. As best I can tell, no PVPP made its way into the cubes and (hopefully) less will be in the fermenters.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (27/2/09)

Thanks Guys This is the most technically interesting thread I have read for ages,should be more of it for us more technically minded brewers, great to see some personal experiences quoted.Makes me want to experiment.
GB


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## Online Brewing Supplies (27/2/09)

BTW has anyone used the liquid Papain enzyme that is sold by brewcraft ? if so does it work and does it have a short shelf life ?I know it is/was used by bigger breweries at some time. I only used it once and got my one and only infected beer ! I did a quick Australian Google but didnt bring up much info.Any ideas?
GB


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## Batz (11/3/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Darren chastised me about how unnecessary it was to rehydrate Polyclar - and on reflection I realized he was right, hydration is about the speed and efficiency with which the polyclar does its job. More powder and more time - and the effort can be reduced. I have been sprinkling on top of my fermentor since Darren shoved me (ungently) towards my epiphany. Not a whiff of chill haze




TB,




So how much do you sprinkle on top ? Do you have to increase the dosage?


Sprinkling instead of rehydrating sounds interesting.


Batz


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## haysie (11/3/09)

well i reckon you guys continue on, the times i have used this polyclar, rehydration was the word so, stirplate and sprinkle. I dont secondary so my yeast was ratshite IMO(the dinger twice cumms to mind) so conjure some more yeast, on a homebrew scale this is all work for 7/8ths of fa improvement.
My ale i added at near end boil a tablesppon of poly then knowing i wasnt going too touch the yeast cake i added another tablespoon at end of fermentation then CC, there is not an ounce of improvement to this beer because of the polyclar At its current price i dont see a huge homebrew market, keep whirfloccin and gelatining. I still have half a bag of plastic, maybe tip the lot in the boil and make the break stick to the sides, no whirlpooling.. Theres a thought


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## Thirsty Boy (12/3/09)

haysie - were you having chill haze problems in the first place?? Because thats the only reason to be using polyclar.

If there was no chill haze issue - polyclar will make no visible difference

If there was a chill haze issue - then polyclar very much should, and in my experience does, make a difference

This stuff is not about general clarity, its not about yeast haze - the only thing it is about is chill haze which is polyphenol/protein complexing. If you expect something else from it, you will be disappointed, if it doesn't do the job for chill haze... I strongly suspect something is awry, because it should.

The whole idea of using it in the boil, is an aside to and an alternative way to achieve, the main purpose of chill haze reduction. It's not a replacement, nor is it intended to be, for whirlfloc or gelatine - the purposes of those things are entirely different

Batz - I am just using more or less the recommended dose... But the Polyclar I use isn't the VT and I suspect I was overdosing anyway. Just use the same amount, but do it the day before you filter - same same. Sort of. Also, no need for things to be cold - the chill haze does not have to have formed for the PC to work. It does not work by settling out or in any way working on the "haze" particles, it works on the pre-cursors and is effective at basically any point and any temperature in the brewing process.

Try em all and see which you like the best


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## altstart (12/3/09)

Very interesting thread, where can I get some Brewbrite to try. 
Cheers Altstart


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## haysie (16/3/09)

I was obvoiusly wrong too think "Poly" made a difference re. beer clarity.Lack of Chill haze being the goal not nesaccarily clarity.
As we all know there are many ways too skin a cat re. beer clarity. 
Chill haze, another story!
Chill haze for me, no idea, never really experienced a stand out problem with it, although some malts IMO, Marris Otter, JW Wheat are far more suss re. haze problems than say a good Wyermann, they clear like a window then once chilled become opaque.
My 2 beers treated with Poly arnt at the haze judicial bench yet, I suspect as TB pointed out, no problem "why" . Why not :huh:


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## Darren (16/3/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Also, no need for things to be cold - the chill haze does not have to have formed for the PC to work. It does not work by settling out or in any way working on the "haze" particles, it works on the pre-cursors and is effective at basically any point and any temperature in the brewing process.




TB, I am wondering about that? Whilst the polyphenols are clumped as haze would it work better at precipitating the haze??

cheers

Darren


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## Online Brewing Supplies (16/3/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> haysie - were you having chill haze problems in the first place?? Because thats the only reason to be using polyclar.
> 
> If there was no chill haze issue - polyclar will make no visible difference
> 
> ...


Thirsty I tend to agree.What you say about pre cursors is correct.Its a preventative measure. Makes me think how they use to have haze free beers before PVPP.May be there were never poly phenols before. :lol: Well I guess they were always there but no one really gave a shit.I dont know for sure.I found chill haze in a lot of may beers recently, but I chill form the haze and drop it out with Isinglass.One material does the job.PVPP is a new product, when others have been around for ages.Each to there own .
GB


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## Bribie G (16/3/09)

The reason that Australian commercial brews don't get chill haze is that they filter the guts out of every drop of them and have done so since the early 20th century. I would imagine that even Coopers does so before re-inoculating for the bottle condition.

However the use of finings such as Polyclar has long been used in non filtered beers such as UK real ales. I quote from my new book "brew your own British Real Ales" 

_Auxiliary finings are optional post fermentation finings that are used in conujnction with insinglass finings to produce brilliant clarity in cask conditiond beers, but they must not be added at the same time as isinglass. Auxiliary finings make particles in the beer negatively charged, however when the isinglass, which is positively charged, is added, all the particles are attracted to it, becoming heavy enough to drop of of suspension.
_
They don't mention PPVT as such but obviously it's the same category of finings and in the case of the Uk ales they aren't using it for chill haze as such. I know that Buttersd70, as an example, uses Polyclar in his ales for long term stability not chill haze.


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## Thirsty Boy (17/3/09)

Darren said:


> TB, I am wondering about that? Whilst the polyphenols are clumped as haze would it work better at precipitating the haze??
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren




That's the thing Darren, people are so used to the idea of clarifiers which precipitate or flocculate formed haze, that they assume that PVPP works that way too. PVPP doesn't do that, it absorbs the polyphenol compounds themselves at a molecular level (I don't pretend to understand the actual chemistry - hydrogen bonds I think) onto its surface. Thus the reason that the smaller, higher surface area powders work more efficiently. This prevents the haze forming in the first place. Its not there to precipitate anything.

I'm not saying the stuff doesn't work at lower temperatures, and it might well work "better" at lower temperatures, it might even, as you say, be able to grab the polyphenols out of pre-formed haze particles even more effectively - dont know. But it certainly doesn't _need_ the haze to have already been formed for it to work.

Bribie - you aren't quite right. Chill haze can and does still happily form in commercial filtered beer. As I mentioned, chillhaze is a product of the coming together of proteins and polyphenols at lower temperatures. It doesn't all happen at once, and it goes away at higher temperatures. You _can_ filter out chill haze, but the beer has to be cold enough for long enough, for it to have formed haze particles big enough to be captured by the filter.

Big breweries (or at least mine) don't get chill haze because they do everything we have talked about - isinglass, cold storage, filtering, PVPP, silica xerogel and anti haze enzymes like Papain. Sometimes all of it to the same beer.

You wouldn't use PVPP in a traditional ale... not cold enough for chill haze to form anyway. The traditional finings for cask ales is Isinglass which (as Gryphon mentioned) also acts on chill haze AND is a clarifier for yeast haze... so would have taken care of any minor occurrence. Like Butters, you might use it to stop the formation of permanent haze and to stave of aged flavours in long term beers.

Traditional lagers of course ... just let it fall to the bottom of the keg during lagering.

no one "needs" pvpp... it just makes things faster and easier. It does nothing that you cant do with time, temperature and care.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (19/3/09)

Time for an update.

The first beer I tried this on was also cube-hopped and, I have to admit, is a sensationally average-tasting brew. However, it is the clearest beer I've ever made after just a few weeks from pitching yeast. I've made clearer beers, but only with a long wait.

I've got one or two more lined up that I've treated this way and I think I might keep doing it - at least until I run out of PVPP and have to make a purchase decision. Certainly a house beer will be getting the treatment to confirm/deny goodness/badness.

(If ISPCorp are going to send me a sample, I am yet to receive it, but that could be because they are mailing it to me slooooowly.)


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## Online Brewing Supplies (19/3/09)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Time for an update.
> 
> The first beer I tried this on was also cube-hopped and, I have to admit, is a sensationally average-tasting brew. However, it is the clearest beer I've ever made after just a few weeks from pitching yeast. I've made clearer beers, but only with a long wait.
> 
> ...


Like wise I have done a few trials but to early to call at this stage, I did notice a bit more non floc ( Less jelly fish type) in the kettle which I cant explain, may be it doesn't drop as well as Whirl floc. But will report my results when they become apparent. I am expecting some PVPP carry over to the secondary .BTW I'm using normal PVPP.
GB


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## Bribie G (5/5/09)

Bumping this thread to see what's the latest on actually getting my hands on some BrewBrite? And how did your various trials go so far, for example Gryphon Brewing? After a chill haze monster American Amber that I forgot to Polyclar in Secondary I'm keen to look at ways of brightening up all my brews.


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## Ross (5/5/09)

BribieG said:


> Bumping this thread to see what's the latest on actually getting my hands on some BrewBrite? And how did your various trials go so far, for example Gryphon Brewing? After a chill haze monster American Amber that I forgot to Polyclar in Secondary I'm keen to look at ways of brightening up all my brews.




Bribie,

Register on the ISP's websitwe site & they'll send you a complimentary sample if you request it.

cheers Ross


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## Bribie G (5/5/09)

Thanks Ross, I'll do that and if I get a sample I might do a side by side with Brewbrite vs a cocktail of Whirlfloc and Polyclar in the kettle. I'm doing a few side by sides with identical recipes lately (Camerons Strongarm 60 mins vs 90 mins hops - Australian Standard Lager made on W 34/70 vs Mauri Lager etc) so one more side by side won't do any harm


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## BeerSwiller (21/2/12)

Hi all,I've used polyclar VT from craftbrewer for a while now... But I might ditch the rehydrating for and hour and just sprinkle on the top when cold conditioning 
One question though... I went out to a local brewery and they gave me some 'polyclar' which they said they use in the kettle... When I got it home it's a cream colour compared to the craftbrewer VT type.... I'm not sure what type of polyclar it is because I thought it was all the same stuff... Any polyclar should work ok for chill haze?


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## MHB (21/2/12)

PVPP is an engineered product, made for specific jobs like lubricating oil; perfectly good gearbox oil would be death on a petrol engine, its good gearbox oil and crap engine oil.
There are lots of versions of PVPP and lots of mixtures of PVPP and other products designed to do specific jobs.
The Kettle version is Brew Bright a blend of PVPP and K-Carrageenan does the job of Whirlfloc/kopafloc/Irish moss and binds chill haze proteins in the kettle.
The post fermentation treatment version most used in brewing is 70/30 a blend of PVPP and Silica Xerogel. Again it tackles two jobs the PVPP takes out Polyphenols and the Xerogel takes out high molecular weight proteins.
The granular or just finely powdered PVPP is I believe mostly used in wine making to remove polyphenols that cause pinking in white wine. Doubtless it works to some extent but you would I believe be better off choosing the version made for the job you are doing.
MHB


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## Thirsty Boy (21/2/12)

Beerswiller said:


> Hi all,I've used polyclar VT from craftbrewer for a while now... But I might ditch the rehydrating for and hour and just sprinkle on the top when cold conditioning
> One question though... I went out to a local brewery and they gave me some 'polyclar' which they said they use in the kettle... When I got it home it's a cream colour compared to the craftbrewer VT type.... I'm not sure what type of polyclar it is because I thought it was all the same stuff... Any polyclar should work ok for chill haze?



if they use it in the kettle its most likely Polyclar Brewbrite. which is the combination of polyclar and carageenan MHB mentioned (brewbrite is cream coloured rather than white)

You can search it out in discussions on this forum and its available from HB shops including some of the site sponsors. I use something on the order of 10-12g in the kettle, rehydrated for 15mins or so before hand in cold water - add at 10mins to go in the boil. a VERY effective kettle coagulant and also reduces or eliminates chill haze in the final beer.

TB


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## Charst (21/2/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> if they use it in the kettle its most likely Polyclar Brewbrite. which is the combination of polyclar and carageenan MHB mentioned (brewbrite is cream coloured rather than white)
> 
> You can search it out in discussions on this forum and its available from HB shops including some of the site sponsors. I use something on the order of 10-12g in the kettle, rehydrated for 15mins or so before hand in cold water - add at 10mins to go in the boil. a VERY effective kettle coagulant and also reduces or eliminates chill haze in the final beer.
> 
> TB




The G&G Pack I have states 4g per 23 L Batch, non rehydrated at 10 minutes.
Whats the rational behind using 3X the prescribed dosage? Isn't there a risk of overdosing the coagulant? 
( I added a full irish moss tab to my first AG and the protein never settled so I've been frightened ever since)
and whats the advantage of rehydrating it prior to adding to boil?


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## BeerSwiller (22/2/12)

Hmm... Well it was a cream colour so maybe it is brewbrite.... Ive had about 60g of VT and now 60g of what may be brewbrite which are now mixed together... 
Although not ideal, I still shouldn't have any problems sprinkling eg. 9g onto a 25lt secondary?


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## Thirsty Boy (22/2/12)

Charst said:


> The G&G Pack I have states 4g per 23 L Batch, non rehydrated at 10 minutes.
> Whats the rational behind using 3X the prescribed dosage? Isn't there a risk of overdosing the coagulant?
> ( I added a full irish moss tab to my first AG and the protein never settled so I've been frightened ever since)
> and whats the advantage of rehydrating it prior to adding to boil?



I found it ineffective at that dose, and besides, my pack didn't come with instructions. Its kettle coagulant properties were just fine at lower doses, but i didn't find it was doing the job on the chill haze.

But of the instructions say 4g per batch - thats what i reccomend you start with at least. Re-hydration?? well, both carageenan and PVPP need to be rehydrated before they work - they'll both domitin the kettle just fine, but brewbrite forms (or at least it does in my kettle) evil lumps that dont disperse properly. Mix it up in some cold water till its a runny paste, and then tip it in. The results are both spectactular, and spectacularly fast... no lumps.



Beerswiller said:


> Hmm... Well it was a cream colour so maybe it is brewbrite.... Ive had about 60g of VT and now 60g of what may be brewbrite which are now mixed together...
> Although not ideal, I still shouldn't have any problems sprinkling eg. 9g onto a 25lt secondary?



dunno - you've mixed a product thats used in the kettle with one thats used in the fermentor....

mmm, it'll be OK i guess, but make sure that if you are using gelatin or isinglass to clear your yeast, that you do it well in advance of the polyclar addition, maybe even preferrable to rack away from your yeast cake before you add it. Or visa versa. The gelatin and the carageenan wont get on well together and will either do something evil and gooey, or just cancel each other out. Maybe better to add the mix as a kettle finings rather than a post fermentation finings.


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## BeerSwiller (22/2/12)

Thanks TB,

I don't use any other finings, I crash chill, add polyclar, then filter.. 
I guess I could just add to the kettle, probably have to use a little more as its a 50/50mix of two different products.. but not sure now.. F*ck!

Maybe it might be best to just dump the 120G of 'polyclar' i have and just grab some more either brewbrite or VT?

 wish i hadn't thrown them both in the same container!

Edit:
I might just go the safer method and add to the kettle.... with a 50/50 mix, should i just add 10g per 25L batch or more?


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## Thirsty Boy (22/2/12)

Beerswiller said:


> Thanks TB,
> 
> I don't use any other finings, I crash chill, add polyclar, then filter..
> I guess I could just add to the kettle, probably have to use a little more as its a 50/50mix of two different products.. but not sure now.. F*ck!
> ...



hell no, dont toss it.

I'd use them in the kettle, then you might well find you dont need polyclar in the fermenter in the first place - but aside from the gelatin/isinglass thing, they should be fine in the fermenter too. The worst that will happen is that they'll do sod all and you'll filter them out anyway.


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## BeerSwiller (22/2/12)

Okay, Thanks Thirsty..

Im just about at the end of a brew I'm boiling at the moment, ill rehydrate 10g up and throw in at 10min mark..
I also have a CPA that ive got still in the fermenter fridge.. ill wait till thats at FG then if my Polyclar VT hasn't arrived from CB which i just ordered, ill add 10g to that and filter.. 

Thanks for your time and help TB.. 

Much appreciated..


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## BeerSwiller (23/2/12)

Just as an update, I rehydrated 10g of the 50/50 VT/Brewbrite Polyclar I had and added @ 10min left in the boil.... I grabbed a small amount of wort and put in the fridge to 2c.... No Chill Haze, Crystal Clear Wort 

Thanks TB, I was going to toss this... thanks for you advice


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## supertonio (3/4/15)

Just wanted to revive this thread cause it's something I've been thinking about. 

Unfortunately i I cannot get brewbrite in Scotland as the only distributor in the uk sells it as 20 kg bags only which is slightly surplus to my requirement. 

A guy I spoke to said I could formulate my own with protafloc and polyclar, of which I have both, and could use this as a pseudo brewbrite in the kettle. 

In regards to this thread did anyone have any success/failure using polyclar in the kettle or do you think I may be able to make my own brewbrite successfully.


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## Mardoo (3/4/15)

Give it a go on a small test batch. If you work out how to make your own brewbrite that'll be homebrewing gold. This may be a good question for the Brew Strong Q&A shows.


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## Eagleburger (3/4/15)

Chill haze and head or neither... my experience with brewbrite used as prescribed.

If I dont chill before keg I get wonderful foam and head retention, but also chillhaze. If I chill the fermenter before kegging I get bright beer, but no head, not a bubble. Bottles also the same.

Anyone care to comment


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## Eagleburger (3/4/15)

Looks like I didnt give it enough time to carb :unsure: .

-_-


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