# Apple Cider Sweetness



## Sportygirl (30/4/09)

My first brew of apple cider (LHB kit - nothing extra) has been fermenting for 10 days and is currently at 1.008 G, but it doesn't taste sweet enough for my liking. Is it too late to add some lactose? I was going to bottle this weekend (3 days away). How much lactose should I add?


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## RdeVjun (30/4/09)

Hi & welcome,
I haven't done this but I'd guess its feasible.

You could try adding a bit at a time over the next few days until hopefully you hit the right level of sweetness before you plan to bottle. Add say 50 or 100g to some boiling water, say at least a cupful, carefully pour it into your fermenter and stir gently with a well- sanitised stirrer- thingamy. Not sure if I'd actually boil lactose, but you want it to be spankingly clean, as does your handling with the lid/ film off the fermernter.

They do ferment down pretty dry the straight kits, a few similar reports around in here somewhere and various methods to counteract it, although for my upcoming few batches I haven't really decided what to do about it. Definately won't be using the champagne yeast they come with, its a shocker.


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## Sportygirl (30/4/09)

RdeVjun said:


> Hi & welcome,
> I haven't done this but I'd guess its feasible.
> 
> You could try adding a bit at a time over the next few days until hopefully you hit the right level of sweetness before you plan to bottle. Add say 50 or 100g to some boiling water, say at least a cupful, carefully pour it into your fermenter and stir gently with a well- sanitised stirrer- thingamy. Not sure if I'd actually boil lactose, but you want it to be spankingly clean, as does your handling with the lid/ film off the fermernter.
> ...



Thanks for that - I'll give it a go! (Without telling BH of course - he only let me make it 'cause I promised I wouldn't make a sweet one!!)


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## Airgead (30/4/09)

I know its a bit late for this batch but yeast selection is probably a better way of controlling the sweetness. 

A wine yeast will ferment it out bone dry (the way I like it). 
An ale yeast (or a cider yeast like wyeast 3766) will ferment to about 1006-1010 or thereabouts (where the missus likes it). 
You can also get sweet cider yeasts (WLP720 or one of the low attenuating English ale yeasts) which will finish higher still.

Cheers
Dave


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## itguy1953 (30/4/09)

Sportygirl said:


> My first brew of apple cider (LHB kit - nothing extra) has been fermenting for 10 days and is currently at 1.008 G, but it doesn't taste sweet enough for my liking. Is it too late to add some lactose? I was going to bottle this weekend (3 days away). How much lactose should I add?



Just watch adding Lactose late in the ferment as it is partially fermentable. You might make bottle bombs if you are not careful.

To work out how much to add, draw off 250ml from the fermenter and add a half teaspoon of Lactose, and sip. Add additional 1/2tsps until it is sweet enough. Then scale up the additions for your batch size. 

Barry


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## Airgead (30/4/09)

Barry R said:


> Just watch adding Lactose late in the ferment as it is partially fermentable. You might make bottle bombs if you are not careful.
> 
> To work out how much to add, draw off 250ml from the fermenter and add a half teaspoon of Lactose, and sip. Add additional 1/2tsps until it is sweet enough. Then scale up the additions for your batch size.
> 
> Barry



Its unlikely to cause bombs... lactose is pretty much unfermentable which is why its used to back sweeten finished brews.

Cheers
Dave


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## leroy_brown (30/4/09)

Sportygirl said:


> My first brew of apple cider (LHB kit - nothing extra) has been fermenting for 10 days and is currently at 1.008 G, but it doesn't taste sweet enough for my liking. Is it too late to add some lactose? I was going to bottle this weekend (3 days away). How much lactose should I add?



I've just bottled my first batch of cider as well! I used a Blackrock kit with a wine yeast and kilo of white sugar. The guy at my LHBS suggested sweetening with lactose after the primary ferment is done. 
The method:
After racking-off, drain 200mL into a glass and chill, add lactose a half-teaspoon at a time until desired sweetness is achieved. Then calculate how many teaspoons this would be for the whole batch, weigh it out, dissolve in some boiling water (all he specified was "not too much" so I guess use common sense. I used about 300mL.) then add to the cider and stir thoroughly with a sanitised spoon as suggested above.

I weighed the lactose powder to be roughly 4g/ teaspoon, a bit of searching around the webernets found this to be about right. I also put in a small bottle of apple schnapps essence at the friendly storemans suggestion to give the cider a really sweet apple aroma, if that interests you. It's subtle once mixed into 22L of cider, but quite effective!

I did have trouble dissolving the lactose though, so anyone have suggestions to help this?


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## leroy_brown (30/4/09)

Whoops, the guy above me just beat me too it! :lol:


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## Bizier (30/4/09)

Welcome Sportygirl.


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## Sportygirl (30/4/09)

Thanks for the welcome and the responses guys! Some great ideas - I'll try the teaspoon, sip it and see technique. By my reckoning, in about 21 litres, it will probably be about 250 gm of lactose. Love the Apple Schnapps idea! Yum!!


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## hayden (30/4/09)

hmm i might give the lactose a go. i just put down a cider/perry had a decent amount of sugar in it ontop of the juice.


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## pdilley (30/4/09)

With my LHBS Black Rock Cider Kit. I went the easiest route possible.

I pour pure ALDI apple juice into a glass and then I pour the Black Rock cider on top and mix for serving to SWMBO. More intense apple flavour, sweet as SWMBO likes it, an be adjusted out to my taste with less apple juice if I want any.

I loathe to post SG ranges as everyones tastes regarding sweetness are different but I trust in Jack Keller's recommendations / competition regulations:

Competition Rule #4: Dry wines must have a specific gravity of 1.007 or less.
Competition Rule #5: Sweet wines should have a specific gravity of 1.008 to 1.025.

That would put 1008 on the edge of dry and beginning edge of semi-sweet. (No differentiation is made between where semi-sweet ends and sweet begins)

The easiest long term method to use when you get stuck into making it over and over is
o determine the Alcohol % you want in your finished cider to have, higher means hot alc. flavours needing longer aging in bottles before drinking
o adjust the must up or down but adding more water or more fermentable sugar source to get the SG hydrometer reading in the zone for that Alc%
o if you were accurate in your sugar calculations, the specific gravity should dip as low as .990 after a few months
o Decision: if wanting a still cider or will keg and carbonate, stabilize first and then add apple juice to desired TG for more flavour and sweetness
o Decision: if wanting a bottle carbonated/conditioned cider, back sweeten with non fermentable sweetener, then prime for bottling according to desired carbonation level with a fermentable sugar

OT:
Hey Dave,
The Sweet Mead yeast left the most residual on the BBRadio podcast. Dry Mead must have been wine yeast as it fermented out the hottest. English and Scottish Ales left rubber-band twang and US-05 of all things came out on top. Give it a go next time.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Sportygirl (1/5/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> o Decision: if wanting a bottle carbonated/conditioned cider, back sweeten with non fermentable sweetener, then prime for bottling according to desired carbonation level with a fermentable sugar




Hey Brewer Pete,

You're obviously a "Pro" and I'm a beginner - I assume when you say "back sweeten" you mean to put the lactose in after fermentation has stopped and before bottling, or should it be put in at the start?
:unsure: 
Like the idea of making it a "his/hers" by just pouring the cider on top of the juice for the sweet-tooth!


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## Sportygirl (1/5/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> With my LHBS Black Rock Cider Kit. I went the easiest route possible.
> 
> I pour pure ALDI apple juice into a glass and then I pour the Black Rock cider on top and mix for serving to SWMBO. More intense apple flavour, sweet as SWMBO likes it, an be adjusted out to my taste with less apple juice if I want any.



BTW Pete - what is "SWMBO"? obviously refers to your good lady other half, but scratching my head to work it out! (Get ready for the "DOH" when you explain....)


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## Sportygirl (1/5/09)

Airgead said:


> Its unlikely to cause bombs... lactose is pretty much unfermentable which is why its used to back sweeten finished brews.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave



I re-read your response from yesterday Airgead and realised you already answered the question I just put to Brewer Pete. I should slow down and read more thoroughly!


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## Adamt (1/5/09)

SWMBO = She Who Must Be Obeyed.


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## Sportygirl (1/5/09)

Adamt said:


> SWMBO = She Who Must Be Obeyed.




DOH!!


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## Katherine (1/5/09)

Sportygirl said:


> DOH!!



Ha it was my first question also! Welcome to AHB... set your location so we know where you are! You will learn heaps from these guys! 

Cheers
Katie


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## staggalee (1/5/09)

I think he`s having a loan of you there, as far as I know it`s She Who Must Bend Over.
But I could be wrong. :huh: 

stagga.


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## Katherine (1/5/09)

staggalee said:


> I think he`s having a loan of you there, as far as I know it`s She Who Must Bend Over.
> But I could be wrong. :huh:
> 
> stagga.



also have you discovered the ignore button? :icon_cheers:


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## staggalee (1/5/09)

Katie said:


> also have you discovered the ignore button? :icon_cheers:



yes ,thanks anyway :beerbang: 

stagga.


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## Airgead (1/5/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> OT:
> Hey Dave,
> The Sweet Mead yeast left the most residual on the BBRadio podcast. Dry Mead must have been wine yeast as it fermented out the hottest. English and Scottish Ales left rubber-band twang and US-05 of all things came out on top. Give it a go next time.
> 
> ...



I've had really good results with the Wyeast 3766. I've use wlp001 (which I think is similar to the us-05) before and that was OK. I've also used WLP002 but the missus declared it too "beery". Never used the sweet myself as the missus and I both like a dry cider (though I like it drier than her). I've used wine yeast (red start premier cuvee) but that comes out too dry for the primary cider drinker.

If I remember correctly, the strains labelled as mead yeast is are wine strains. I think "dry mead" is just a neutral white wine strain (or maybe a champagne) while the sweet is more a sauterns strain.

Cheers
Dave


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## Sportygirl (1/5/09)

Katie said:


> also have you discovered the ignore button? :icon_cheers:



Thanks for the tip! I've just spent the last hour finding my way around the site and updated my profile. (Should be working!) BTW - where's that "ignore" button?


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## hayden (1/5/09)

its in your messenger, next to the user usernames of other people


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## pdilley (1/5/09)

Sportygirl said:


> Hey Brewer Pete,
> 
> You're obviously a "Pro" and I'm a beginner - I assume when you say "back sweeten" you mean to put the lactose in after fermentation has stopped and before bottling, or should it be put in at the start?
> :unsure:
> Like the idea of making it a "his/hers" by just pouring the cider on top of the juice for the sweet-tooth!



No, we are all professional beginners here  I just have more of a scientific/math "bent" to the hobby then others. Some of us are happy with "just fill the pot up with water to four finger widths below the rim". Others are happier with "measure out exactly 16 liters of water and place it in the pot". If both results end up with a drink you are happy with then who is to say anything about your preferred style. Thats the good thing about doing it as a hobby you can do whichever makes you feel good about your participation in the hobby.

Adding juice in with the fermented drink is common practice, so you should not feel bad about doing so if you so choose to do it. It is easier to put sweetness into something dry than it is to do the reverse.

In reverse if something ends up "cloyingly" sweet, then to a point you can add acid blends "citric, etc." to balance the flavour and make it "seem" more complex than it did originally.

The process would be ferment out dry, starting by watering down the original fermentable item(s) until the gravity reading reaches a number that you know will end up making a particular percentage of alcohol if completely eaten up and fermented by the yeast you use. Each strain of yeast is different to another strain. They make only up to so much alcohol % in what you are fermenting before they give up and just drop out of suspension (flocculate). If a yeast gives a 12% rating on the packet or web page of the manufacturer then you know in a perfect environment it can make 12% (doing it all means 100% Attenuation in brewing words, doing half would be 50% Attenuation, etc. Some yeasts are known to have Attenuation of 74%-85%, at 85% if you take 12 times 0.85 you get 10.19 or 10.2% Alcohol produced before they gave up and flocculated. Nothing stops you from watering down the fermentable to an starting gravity that would end up in 4% and then use that particular yeast strain that has a rating of 12%. Once they chew through all the fermentable stuff they give up and flocculate. This lets you be in control of the process more than setting a high starting gravity number and hoping it finishes exactly at a gravity of 1.008 and give the full 12% Alcohol. That 74% Attenuation may happen and you'll end up sweeter than you wanted, or maybe the 85% Attenuation might happen to your fermentation and you still end up sweeter than you wanted but no so sickly as at 74% Attenuation. Maybe, just maybe you toss in extra yeast nutrients and you will find your 12% rating was a porky and the yeast end up being able to put out 14% alcohol before they flocculate. Some strains are even weird and when nutrients are added give you 10% instead of 12%! Its a variable world out there with living organisms so that is why it is sometimes a lot easier to decide to ferment out dry and back sweeten.

That means the back sweetening takes place after flocculation takes place, so no lactose additions and then tossing in of yeast. Same for acid as well, save that until after flocculation.

Now you can also siphon off the liquid after flocculation into a new cleaned and sanitised fermenter which they call racking a [wine/mead/beer].

Racking off of the flocculated yeast prevents additional excretions from the yeast to add new and perhaps unwanted flavours into your liquid.

In some cases you do want those flavours.

Some people think its safer to leave the liquid on the yeast with short term fermentations (mostly with beer compared to wines or meads) than risk getting oxygen into the finished fermented liquid or expose it to the airborne yeasts, fungi, and bacteria and get an acetic (vinegar) making bacteria in their liquid. This is why when racking you make sure you fill up the vessel you are racking to all the way up to the top with as little air gap as possible even if it means racking into a smaller vessel and putting the extra left overs into an even smaller vessel, even wine bottles or small beer bottles with its own rubber bung and fermentation lock if you are worried about further fermentation/production of gasses.

Other people think it is better to rack to a second vessel.

Welcome to the argument that makes this hobby unique  no one is correct, whatever suits your fancy for your particular situation and particular type of beverage you are fermenting, if you like the end result, so be it.

If you wondered but didn't want to ask about stabilization, the idea is to stop the yeast so you are going to have to be mean to them.

You need two items to stabilise, it is not enough to use just one and call it stabilising a wine/mead/cider/etc.

You also have a choice. The products you buy and use can start with the word Sodium or start with the word Potassium, its up to you which you use. Sodium is salt to you and me so you know why I don't like Sodium stuff in my drink, so I go with the Potassium ones.

Potassium sorbate is a wine stabiliser that should be used in conjunction with Campden tablets which is really just Potassium metabisulfite. In other words, it works better with sulfites present than without, and it works better than sulfites alone.

Potassium sorbate disrupts the reproductive cycle of yeast which means they are unable to reproduce and they slowly diminish in number. But it does not kill the yeast that already exist and are alive so you send in Potassium metabisulfate to finish them off. Only then can you truly say a fermented beverage has been stabilised. The only bad thing is you need yeast to make carbonation in bottles so if you bottle you should not do this at all. This is where kegs come in. You can put beverages in kegs and hook up gas cylinders of carbon dioxide CO2. The gas in the cylinders is at such a high pressure that when you turn on the gas it rushes to the normal pressure keg and forces itself into the liquid. This is where modern soda drinks and other fizzy items are made. Its cheap and it does the job. But you get into Argument space #2 on the quality and size of the bubbles and how it effects (beer) foam heads. Its all in good fun though.

This is where the sulfates apart from sulphur dioxide given off by some yeasts comes from in wines, and a small number of people are allergic to it.

Without stabilising you have to drink the wine young before it goes bad.

Or you add spirits to the wine instead to protect it without sulphates, which is where fortified wines come from.

That should be enough to make you fermentation masters in no time.


Best of luck,
Brewer Pete


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## jivesucka (5/2/10)

used the brigalow cider. added a 750 bottle of apple schnapps to boost the alcohol and man it packs a punch! pours with a nice fluffy head and is very well carbonated. left it in for as long as possible and not surprisingly the hydrometer was barely visible. the flavour is dry as a bone, but i like it. i'd prefer it sweeter but the potency makes up for the dryness.
might try it again soon and add 2 bottles of apple schnapps.


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