# Grain Of The Week - Rye



## Stuster (25/3/11)

It's been a while since I started one of these but a request from Philip for a thread on rye sounded like a great idea to me. An adjunct grain, rye can be malted or unmalted. Unmalted, flaked rye is often available at a wholefoods shop, malted from your LHBS etc. There are a couple threads on style threads on here connected to rye - Roggenbier and American wheat or rye. There are also a number of people who have used this grain in APAs and AIPAs, with the Denny Conn Rye IPA being a great recipe. There are others who are not too keen on it, suggesting it's born of goats.  

So have you tried it? Was it good for you? How did you use it and what did others think of what you did with it? Would you give it another go?

As well as a base grain, there's also crystal rye and chocolate rye malt. Have you used these and what did they add to your beer?

*Articles*
BT article on rye
Top 10 US rye beers and some info on styles with rye
BYO article - tips from the pros on using rye


----------



## Bribie G (25/3/11)

At BABBs last night argon slipped me a glass of his dark rye IPA. It had a lovely mocha / deeply rich back-flavour that I recognised instantly, but couldn't quite pick it. 
Then I remembered: Baltika 4 - 5.6% ABV amber rye lager. One of the few beers from Dan's that have knocked my socks off. Love it. 

Sadly Baltika have been conned into a BUL deal with the mob who make Haaaagen so hopefully Dans will continue with the real stuff.


----------



## Nick JD (25/3/11)

Not a big fan of the old caramel rye anymore... 

I was finding it difficult to put my finger on exactly what it was that I sometimes got in my beer - a slightly weird flavour - until I noticed a correlation between that flavour and the use of small amounts of caramel rye.

Don't think I'm a fan if the "rye spiciness". More like "rye funkiness". But I would like to try a good example of its use rather than my 5% in an American Ale.


----------



## bconnery (25/3/11)

I've made a Rye ESB which is one of my best beers and a few others have made variations of it. 

Really enjoy the combination of the spiciness or the rye with the caramel/choc of the ESB. 

This particular beer works best with the caramel rye as well, a version made without it lacked a lot of the character of this version. 

In the recipe db


Recipe: Rye ESB
Brewer: Mooshells
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 33.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 34.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 49.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 70 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3800.00 gm Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 72.38 % 
700.00 gm Rye Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 13.33 % 
300.00 gm Caramel Rye (Weyermann) (69.0 EBC) Grain 5.71 % 
150.00 gm Amber Malt (85.0 EBC) Grain 2.86 % 
150.00 gm Crystal, Dark (Bairds) (216.7 EBC) Grain 2.86 % 
150.00 gm Pale Chocolate Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (689.Grain 2.86 % 
20.00 gm Challenger [7.10 %] (60 min) Hops 15.8 IBU 
40.00 gm Bramling Cross [5.10 %] (60 min) Hops 22.6 IBU 
25.00 gm Bramling Cross [5.10 %] (15 min) Hops 7.0 IBU 
25.00 gm Challenger [7.10 %] (5 min) Hops 3.9 IBU 
1.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
2.00 gm Chalk (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Thames Valley Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1882PC)Yeast-Ale


----------



## argon (25/3/11)

Nick JD said:


> Not a big fan of the old caramel rye anymore...
> 
> I was finding it difficult to put my finger on exactly what it was that I sometimes got in my beer - a slightly weird flavour - until I noticed a correlation between that flavour and the use of small amounts of caramel rye.



What do you mean by weird Nick?

For me the latest batch of my Rye ESB (it's at 45IBU so could easily be called an IPA) is much better than the first batch. The first one i felt had a strange chemical spiced taste to it that was just a bit overpowering. The second batch, i doubled the amount of dark crystal and the balance works much better now. I don't get that chemical taste, but i do get some nice supporting spicyness.

Edit: i used 5% Caramel Rye Malt and 15% Rye Malt
Edit2: my Rye ESB grain bill is almost identical to bconnery's, but with the Golden Promise used in lieu of MO and now with 5% Dark Crystal


----------



## BoilerBoy (25/3/11)

Rye is awesome!

First time I tried it there was that instant "wow" factor and I had to make one.

That spicy flavour can make a beer spectacular!

Got some in a pale ale at the moment at 20% with a heap of dark munich hopped with Super Pride and Galaxy.

I'm sure Dr Smurto will jump in here at some point He's totally addicted! :beerbang: 

Cheers,
BB


----------



## drsmurto (26/3/11)

Adjunct? :blink: 

Rye is a base malt people. :beerbang: 

It goes in everything, as Boilerboy pointed out i am addicted to rye.

Last 5 or so golden ales have used rye instead of wheat. Just finished a keg of Roggenbier. Ryedunkelweizenbock (AG#100) is now on tap. 

Credit where credit it due, i tasted Boilerboys American Rye IPA, the one that cleaned up at the AABC a few years ago and was hooked. I had to brew it. After that i was a lost cause.

Planning a few big rye IPAs soon in collaboration with Phillip, one with more than 60% rye and dripping with hops.

I brewed bconnerys rye ESB and christened the handpump with it. Also brewed a rye 3 stout.

Unlike Nick i think caramel rye is a critical part of a good rye beer. The extra spiciness it gives really brings it all together.

Next up on my list of rye beers to brew is a roggenwine, 100% rye to OG 1.100. :icon_drool2: 

It may take me 3 years to sparge and all the rice hulls in china but I'm going for it.


----------



## Nick JD (26/3/11)

argon said:


> What do you mean by weird Nick?
> The first one i felt had a *strange chemical spiced taste* to it that was just a bit overpowering.



YES! That's it. I wanted to say "chemically" but was worried the brew police would start up with their, "infection" codswallop if I used that word. The beer was fine, it actually had hints of "kit twang", and I find it difficult to type that!

But I don't want to dislike rye - I guess I should ask the great and all-knowning Smurto for a bulletproof recipe and become a disciple. Maybe something with some rye as a base malt, not that evil rye caramel. Perhaps it was a bad batch that the maltster spilt roundup on?


----------



## Effect (28/3/11)

Thanks Stuster for starting this thread!

Hadn't had a rye beer until about 3 months ago. Smurto kegged a roggenbier and chucked it on tap. Bliss. From then on, like most that have tried rye, I am addicted. Bought a sack of rye and a kilo of cara-rye.

I have only brewed with this once in a NWPA (i.e. 99% similar to smurto's latest Golden Ale recipe) 55/20/20/5 MO/Rye/Munich II/Medium Crystal. I really liked it. Most of my latest recipes that I play around with in beersmith seem to have some rye sneaking in. However, as a rule I find that 15% is the minimum I would go in any recipe, which is different to wheat, where I would go as low as 5% as wheat can really improve the head retention - which I wouldn't know if rye does as I have only brewed with it once. When crushing the rye, I ran it through twice in the mill. It was quite difficult the first time round and then went through just like any other grain would. Next time I brew I will crush the rye first, and then put that with the other grain to be crushed so it gets a second run through. I didn't experience any stuck sparge, however, I did put in a large handfull of rice gulls after I did the decoction mashout to aid with lautering.

I will have to try two standard 95/5 pale/crystal beers and sub in crystal rye for one and sub some base malt for rye in the other. 95/5 Pale/cararye and 75/20/5 Pale/rye/medium crystal, just to see whats going on with the different rye flavours they both add.

I know that kieren likes to put rye in his beer and without ANY influence from me at all has chosen to have a minimum of 15% rye in the latest stammtisch challange. 

After having talked to a few brewers about doing a 100% rye beer, and one told me to go and buy some beta-glucanese (or whatever it is) to chuck in the mash. I know that others do a beta-glucan rest at 45 degrees (?) but would be interested in finding out where I can buy some of the specific enzyme, just to make life easier. If I do make a 100% rye beer, I won't hold back like 4 star did...I will be chucking a pound of hops in the mash tun as well...Hatchy and I did a 11 g/l mash hop addition in a beer with a 6 g/l flameout addition. Was superb. Either the keg leaked everywhere at the case swap or everyone drunk it...100% rye mash hop IPA - next level business if you ask me.

Through PMs with Maple about doing a Rye-PA, I have been advised that rye can hold the hops up just a little more and so you can get away with adding that extra 5 IBU. So the collaboration batch of Rye-PA with Smurto is going to be along the lines of 55/37/8 Rye/Ale/Cararye with bucket loads of late columbus with some amarillo and centennial making some guest appereances early on and maybe in the fermenter. Columbus is one of my favourite hops and one that I think is a bit underrated...Maple also says that it blends quite well with the rye character.

Look forward to lurking around in this GOTW thread.

Cheers
Phil


----------



## argon (28/3/11)

Nick JD said:


> YES! That's it. I wanted to say "chemically" but was worried the brew police would start up with their, "infection" codswallop if I used that word. The beer was fine, it actually had hints of "kit twang", and I find it difficult to type that!
> 
> But I don't want to dislike rye - I guess I should ask the great and all-knowning Smurto for a bulletproof recipe and become a disciple. Maybe something with some rye as a base malt, not that evil rye caramel. Perhaps it was a bad batch that the maltster spilt roundup on?



yeah i was pretty concerned too when i tasted this chemical flavour... almost gave me a bit of a headache. I thought i'd let too much starsan or cleaner get into the keg. Not sure where it really came from - rye or cararye. But i know in the latest incarnation i get the slightest hint of it, but it's much more pleasant at lower levels.

Like you, i don't want to dislike it... i think if i use it again i'll be going down a traditional roggenbier path with a wheat yeast and leaving the cararye out.


----------



## Nick JD (28/3/11)

argon said:


> yeah i was pretty concerned too when i tasted this chemical flavour... almost gave me a bit of a headache. I thought i'd let too much starsan or cleaner get into the keg. Not sure where it really came from - rye or cararye. But i know in the latest incarnation i get the slightest hint of it, but it's much more pleasant at lower levels.
> 
> Like you, i don't want to dislike it... i think if i use it again i'll be going down a traditional roggenbier path with a wheat yeast and leaving the cararye out.



It's the rye caramel. Have a nibble on a half teaspoon of the grain ... initially it's really tasty then wait about ten seconds, and BANG, a sort of tart, chemically flavour on the sides of the tongue. 

I really can't see how that improves a beer, but then again there's different strokes and all that. 

Come to think of it, I can't stand rye bread either. It's like eating a sour dishcloth. 

I think this is more about me than the beer.


----------



## Bribie G (28/3/11)

From Dr Smurto's comments I take it that using a proportion of rye as a base malt can cause a stuck sparge - I assume that wouldn't be a problem with BIAB? I'm going to try a Baltika 4 wannabee when I next order from CB. :icon_cheers: 

Probably along the lines of base malt, maybe 20% rye, caramel rye and a Danish Lager yeast (I'll have slurry shortly from a Pale Continental Lager). Ferment and lager 10 / 10.


----------



## Cortez The Killer (28/3/11)

I made a Roggenbier on the weekend and it does make things very sticky in the tun - I don't have any issues with comparable amounts of wheat

I've made a few different beers with Rye in them with 5-35% of the bill being Rye 

I do prefer the grain at a lower % than at a higher one 

The higher % seems to overwhelm the beer - for my tastes any way 

I'll wait until I'm drinking the Roggenbier before passing final judgement though

Cheers


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (28/3/11)

BribieG said:


> From Dr Smurto's comments I take it that using a proportion of rye as a base malt can cause a stuck sparge - I assume that wouldn't be a problem with BIAB? I'm going to try a Baltika 4 wannabee when I next order from CB. :icon_cheers:
> 
> Probably along the lines of base malt, maybe 20% rye, caramel rye and a Danish Lager yeast (I'll have slurry shortly from a Pale Continental Lager). Ferment and lager 10 / 10.



Dough balls in the bag? It might take a little longer with the paint stirrer, or (if you sparge) longer to sparge, as it might get stuck in the middle of the grain. I don't use it, but reading up on it, that's the conclusion I've made, and how I'll avoid it.

Goomba


----------



## felten (28/3/11)

Nick JD said:


> It's the rye caramel. Have a nibble on a half teaspoon of the grain ... initially it's really tasty then wait about ten seconds, and BANG, a sort of tart, chemically flavour on the sides of the tongue.


It might also be an age issue, I doubt crystal rye is the fastest mover off the shelves.


----------



## Tony (28/3/11)

I made a beer a while back and it got infected which upset me quite a bit.

I called it the KnightRyder.

Its basicly a Belgian Dubbel with a good dose of Rye in it.

Now that its cooling down again, im gunna give it another crack.... i have 5kg of rye to play with in stock 

cheers


----------



## bum (28/3/11)

Nick JD said:


> Not a big fan of the old caramel rye anymore...
> 
> I was finding it difficult to put my finger on exactly what it was that I sometimes got in my beer - a slightly weird flavour - until I noticed a correlation between that flavour and the use of small amounts of caramel rye.


I just used a largish chunk of this in my most recent brew and I have to say I agree with the above. There is a certain something that is hard to lay a finger upon that I don't like about it.

Never used proper rye to know if this is at all relevant to the thread though.


----------



## Stuster (29/3/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Adjunct? :blink:
> 
> Rye is a base malt people. :beerbang:



Ah, yes. Right. I guess I was thinking partly of the flaked rye. And partly I was wrong. :lol: 

I find a great contribution of rye to the beer is in the body of the beer. The beer seems to have a rich body and a fuller but not cloying mouthfeel. Also seems to give a richer maltiness to the beer. Especially good in APAs/AIPAs to balance the hop hit.


----------



## Fatgodzilla (29/3/11)

Cortez The Killer said:


> I'll wait until I'm drinking the Roggenbier before passing final judgement though
> 
> Cheers




Best wait till I'm there before trying .. just in case.

A lot of great comments here - impressed with the AIPA/APA comments. Not tried with this style, mainly using in high malt/low hop styles. Gotta give that a go. Like Bum's comment though - have used and got a "different " effect than expected. I guess without a lot (any available) of commercial roggenbiers, though, I'm not certain what I'm supposed to taste.


----------



## axertes (24/4/11)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Best wait till I'm there before trying .. just in case.
> 
> A lot of great comments here - impressed with the AIPA/APA comments. Not tried with this style, mainly using in high malt/low hop styles. Gotta give that a go. Like Bum's comment though - have used and got a "different " effect than expected. I guess without a lot (any available) of commercial roggenbiers, though, I'm not certain what I'm supposed to taste.


I've never had a Roggenbier. I'm not very familiar with German styles. One of my favourite beers is Sunshine Coast Brewery's Rye ESB. It's like honey! Delicious! And this is coming from someone who isn't usually a fan of really malty, less-hopped beers (more a Pale Ale kinda guy).

Can anyone who's had the Rye ESB compare it to a Roggenbier? I'm curious is all. If they're as delicious as the Rye ESB then I think I'm a rye fan.

Or... can anyone suggest a good Roggenbier I can buy?

The Rye ESB is pretty sweet. Is rye partially unfermentable or something?


----------



## goomboogo (24/4/11)

Axertes, the Sunshine Coast beer falls in the SB/ESB category far more than the rye/roggenbier category. So it's a not going to give you a great idea of what roggenbier is like.

There is not an abundance of commercial examples available. You're best bet is to find the best bottleshop in town and see if they've got something. I think 3 Ravens did a roggen at one stage although I have not tried it. You may be lucky and find something from Germany or possibly America in the bottleshop. It depends on how good your local bottleshops are.


----------



## axertes (24/4/11)

goomboogo said:


> Axertes, the Sunshine Coast beer falls in the SB/ESB category far more than the rye/roggenbier category. So it's a not going to give you a great idea of what roggenbier is like.
> 
> There is not an abundance of commercial examples available. You're best bet is to find the best bottleshop in town and see if they've got something. I think 3 Ravens did a roggen at one stage although I have not tried it. You may be lucky and find something from Germany or possibly America in the bottleshop. It depends on how good your local bottleshops are.


I have the Spotted Cow Cellars here: one of the best in QLD  I think I've seen the 3 Ravens Rye, might give it a go.

Edit: actually, it's _the_ best bottle shop in QLD, apparently: http://www.spottedcow.com.au/_webapp_12329...TLE_SHOP_IN_QLD!

No I'm not affiliated with them. I just love them :wub:


----------



## goomboogo (24/4/11)

axertes said:


> I have the Spotted Cow Cellars here: one of the best in QLD  I think I've seen the 3 Ravens Rye, might give it a go.
> 
> Edit: actually, it's _the_ best bottle shop in QLD, apparently: http://www.spottedcow.com.au/_webapp_12329...TLE_SHOP_IN_QLD!
> 
> No I'm not affiliated with them. I just love them :wub:



I just had a look at the link. Looks like a good shop. Let us know what you think of any rye beers you try.


----------



## fawnroux (24/4/11)

axertes said:


> One of my favourite beers is Sunshine Coast Brewery's Rye ESB. It's like honey! Delicious! And this is coming from someone who isn't usually a fan of really malty, less-hopped beers (more a Pale Ale kinda guy).



The Sunshine Coast Brewery Rye ESB is 54 IBU and dry hopped to boot! No wonder you're a fan of it!


----------



## Punkal (24/4/11)

Don't mind the Spotted Cow and really liked the Cellars. Have not been there for a few years but i remember good things... Now i want a good rye beer...


----------



## axertes (24/4/11)

thefawnroux said:


> The Sunshine Coast Brewery Rye ESB is 54 IBU and dry hopped to boot! No wonder you're a fan of it!



54IBU!? Doesn't taste that way!

I guess we call that 'balance'.


----------



## axertes (26/4/11)

axertes said:


> 54IBU!? Doesn't taste that way!
> 
> I guess we call that 'balance'.


Too late to edit.

Well, as it turns out the Cow had a threefer on 3 Ravens beers. So I got their 'Ravenator' (bock), their 'USB' (Ueber Special Bitter - ESB) and the 'rye' (roggenbier).

The bock was average, the roggenbier was ok. BUT... the 'USB' was awesome!

With the roggen (which this thread is about, although I looooved the 'USB')... well. The rye was apparent on the first taste, with the rye-caramel-warmth, but the alcoholiness and other factors kinda overrode the rye goodness after the first sip or two. It didn't really have the special rye taste, nor did it have any real complexity. The Sunny Coast Rye ESB doesn't have much complexity either, but the rye-honey-molasses taste is something special. 

Did I mention the USB was awesome? Try it!


----------



## bconnery (26/4/11)

axertes said:


> Too late to edit.
> 
> Well, as it turns out the Cow had a threefer on 3 Ravens beers. So I got their 'Ravenator' (bock), their 'USB' (Ueber Special Bitter - ESB) and the 'rye' (roggenbier).
> 
> ...


I had the Rye ESB on tap the other night and I found it noticeably sweeter than I remember it. It tasted to me like they've either dropped the IBUs or have changed the grain bill a little, I'm not sure. 
I'd be curious to know if others who've tasted this beer over the years have had a similar impression.


----------



## Flash_DG (27/4/11)

*but the rye-honey-molasses taste is something special. *
Pretty sure they use Treacle. I hate the stuff and it is very over powering in that particular beer. :icon_vomit:


----------



## Effect (3/5/11)

About to add the 60 min addition to a rye robust porter - stammtisch beer the latest . Minimum 15% rye was needed in this one, which I did with both cara-rye and malted rye.


----------



## hopcycle (9/5/11)

I just started this off yesterday and is my second beer on a new keggle using BIAB. I have grown a bit tired of in your face fruity hops :icon_vomit: and so made one with lots of Czech saaz for a more subdued flavour and aroma. I would normally only boil for 60 mins but was a bit out of whack with a few other things going on. The wort drained fine and went through the chiller very well.....this was the first time using a plate chiller and it worked very well. Using tank water it took about 5-7 minutes to drop it down to the tank water temp. 

I'm not sure if the malt bill will overwhelm the saaz flavour but would think it may come out quite well balanced. What do you think?

This wort was viscous and also quite hazy out of the boiler. I am hopeful for a beer with lots of character. I'll post up my tasting notes when it is done.



*Ryazza * (American Pale Ale)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.047 (P): 11.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.012 (P): 3.1
Alcohol (ABV): 4.62 %
Colour (SRM): 6.8 (EBC): 13.4
Bitterness (IBU): 38.5 (Average)

67.04% Pale Ale Malt
22.35% Rye Malt
5.59% Victory
2.79% Caramalt
2.23% Acidulated Malt

0.7 g/L Northern Brewer (11% Alpha) @ 70 Minutes (Boil)
1.5 g/L Saaz (3.6% Alpha) @ 40 Minutes (Boil)
1.5 g/L Saaz (3.6% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
1.5 g/L Saaz (3.6% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)

0.1 g/L Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
0.2 g/L Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)

Single step Infusion at 66C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 70 Minutes

Fermented at 17C with Safale US-05


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


----------



## pajs (2/4/16)

Interested in using up left over malts before the brewing season kicks off proper, so am having a go at a 40% malted rye, 40% dark malted wheat, 20% amber malt. First wort hopped with Galaxy, Galaxy again at flameout. Keen to see how the rye and the amber play together (or don't).


----------



## MastersBrewery (2/4/16)

pajs said:


> Interested in using up left over malts before the brewing season kicks off proper, so am having a go at a 40% malted rye, 40% dark malted wheat, 20% amber malt. First wort hopped with Galaxy, Galaxy again at flameout. Keen to see how the rye and the amber play together (or don't).


Brewing season??? There's a period of the year people don't brew??? I must be on the wrong site!


----------



## pajs (2/4/16)

MastersBrewery said:


> Brewing season??? There's a period of the year people don't brew??? I must be on the wrong site!


I mostly brew in winter - enough for the year. Summer & early Autumn usually taken up with vintage (wine stuff). Might do a few brews in early Spring, but winter is the brewing season.


----------

