# Just A Bit Of A Rant...



## Ronin (9/1/09)

Is it just me or do other people have issues with buying a Heineken/Becks/other contract brewed beer from a restaurant that's selling it as 'imported' beer. I don't necessarily mind the contract brewed 'imported' beers, they're certainly better than a lot of options at restaurants. It's just if I buy an 'imported' beer, I expect it to be brewed outside of Australia. I know it's owned by an overseas company...but if it's australian made from local ingredients, it's not really 'imported' is it? Or is it made from imported grain, hops and yeast?

Is it just me? Am I just being petty? :unsure: 

James


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## sinkas (9/1/09)

Im pretty sure the people running the kebab joint you go to dont give a toss where it's brewed QED


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

sinkas said:


> Im pretty sure the people running the kebab joint you go to dont give a toss where it's brewed QED



Problem is it more than just kebab joints, as far as I can tell it's everywhere.

So I am just being petty then :lol: 

James


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## Adamt (9/1/09)

Only _noticeable_ difference between the imported and contract brewed Eurolagers is the lower amount of skunking in the contract brewed versions.

Edit: Italics... happy Bizier?


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## Bizier (9/1/09)

You would hope that is the case Adam, but I would think that the equipment setup would impart some difference.

OK maybe it is more like within 5% of the imported product.

I think the name "Fosters" on the label imparts off flavours, because it generally symbolises poor taste.


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## T.D. (9/1/09)

Yep "perception" is a very powerful thing. More powerful than actual taste I would say...


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## Bizier (9/1/09)

I reckon.. I'm a graphic designer by training, and I reckon people would taste a difference if one made a Heineken label yellow or red or even a different shade of green. It is like trying to feed dark beers to my dad, he never approaches it with an open mind, only ever sees black and that is kinda it.


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

T.D. said:


> Yep "perception" is a very powerful thing. More powerful than actual taste I would say...



Undoubtebly...I don't actually mind that they are brewed under contract. Sometimes I can tell the difference, others I can't. I've been served an imported followed by a contract brewed beer right after each other, and I noticed that the taste had changed. If it hadn't been for having them right after each other I probably wouldn't have noticed.

I guess the problem is that I'm not getting what I expect. I don't know if I'm going to get an imported beer or a contract brewed beer when I order certain beers, and there is a taste difference, albeit a small one. 

And I know that the restaurant owners don't care, I know most people don't care nor even notice that the taste has changed, I know I'm paying imported beer prices though regardless of what I actually get though <_< .


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## threeheads (9/1/09)

Ronin,

I am with you. A few places i have been to for christmas parties and the such over the past few weeks divide their beers into Australian and Imported, with the imported list being twice as expensive as the Australian beers. I would assume that in years gone by the imported beers have been more expensive because of the cost of getting them to Australia. Why then should the "imported" brewed under licence beers have twice the price tag of other Australian beers.

I would also think that the brewed under licence beers would be quite different from the originals because of the difference in water, grains etc. The only one i have had experience with is guinness and this was very different between the original and brewed under licence beers.


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## jonocarroll (9/1/09)

threeheads said:


> <snip> I would assume that in years gone by the imported beers have been more expensive because of the cost of getting them to Australia. Why then should the "imported" brewed under licence beers have twice the price tag of other Australian beers. </snip>


Because the drop in price isn't for the benefit of the consumer - it's for the companies/restaurants. If most people can't tell the difference, the companies may as well save some money.


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## DiscoStu (9/1/09)

Would be interesting to run a blind tasting of the real imported versus the locally brewed versions of these beers. I wonder how many people would really pick the real one.


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## unterberg (9/1/09)

Bizier said:


> I reckon.. I'm a graphic designer by training, and I reckon people would taste a difference if one made a Heineken label yellow or red or even a different shade of green. It is like trying to feed dark beers to my dad, he never approaches it with an open mind, only ever sees black and that is kinda it.



Hmm dark beers tasty

But back to the topic: I dont like this in my eyes false advertising of imported beers and I would say that many people would agree to that. Nobody likes to be fooled really.
That these beers might still taste good is a different story. They should just have to label them as brewed in Australia. Whats wrong with that? They can still use the same bottle and label but at least a small print where it is brewed would be appropriate. The people that want to buy a brand would most likely not care about that small print anyway. And those that know that they are just overpriced fakes would invest their money in a good 'for real' imported beer or australian drop anyway.


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## DiscoStu (9/1/09)

It's definately false adversting to call a locally brewed Becks etc Imported. Next time refuse to pay or only pay the local beer price.

Definitions of imported on the Web:

* used of especially merchandise brought from a foreign source; "imported wines"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


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## Bizier (9/1/09)

AFAIK They always state "Brewed under license by.." somewhere on the case/6 pack/bottle


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## Thirsty Boy (9/1/09)

Unterberg said:


> Hmm dark beers tasty
> 
> But back to the topic: I dont like this in my eyes false advertising of imported beers and I would say that many people would agree to that. Nobody likes to be fooled really.
> That these beers might still taste good is a different story. They should just have to label them as brewed in Australia. Whats wrong with that? They can still use the same bottle and label but at least a small print where it is brewed would be appropriate. The people that want to buy a brand would most likely not care about that small print anyway. And those that know that they are just overpriced fakes would invest their money in a good 'for real' imported beer or australian drop anyway.



They are - or at least the ones brewed by fosters are. If you cant read the label and identify that it was brewed in Australia, then it wasn't.

I tend to agree though - perhaps they should be labeled "premium" or some other such guff, rather than imported. They are harder and more expensive to brew than the local products, so they will always be more expensive, but they aren't imported and shouldn't be sold as such.

Of course, thats all a bit hard for the local restaurant owner, they just know that heineken is dutch and therefore must be an import. I say just call em beer, price em as you want and let the customer decide whether the one in the green bottle has something he wants to pay extra for... bad business though.


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## Black Dog Brewery (9/1/09)

DiscoStu said:


> Would be interesting to run a blind tasting of the real imported versus the locally brewed versions of these beers. I wonder how many people would really pick the real one.




I think everyone would notice the difference in flavor (or the lack of it in one!) however what they preferred would vary depending on their taste. IMO the difference is too great to be the result of local variants like water etc more so they are brewed to clone the other local over chilled tasteless mega swills around to capture a larger market as is seen with crownies.

When they first started brewing them under license I put it down to the fact that the menus were out of date and not intentional but now you see new menus with this on them and yes it annoys me.

Cheers BDB


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

threeheads said:


> Ronin,
> 
> I am with you. A few places i have been to for christmas parties and the such over the past few weeks divide their beers into Australian and Imported, with the imported list being twice as expensive as the Australian beers. I would assume that in years gone by the imported beers have been more expensive because of the cost of getting them to Australia. Why then should the "imported" brewed under licence beers have twice the price tag of other Australian beers.
> 
> I would also think that the brewed under licence beers would be quite different from the originals because of the difference in water, grains etc. The only one i have had experience with is guinness and this was very different between the original and brewed under licence beers.



I have to agree with the guiness comment. I don't mind Heineken/becks brewed under contract, the taste is at least similar (how wrong can you go when the flavour is mild anyway). But the guiness brewed under contract is awful stuff...wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot clown pole.


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

Bizier said:


> AFAIK They always state "Brewed under license by.." somewhere on the case/6 pack/bottle



I'm pretty sure they do that too, usually in the fine print on the back label.


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## peas_and_corn (9/1/09)

DiscoStu said:


> It's definately false adversting to call a locally brewed Becks etc Imported. Next time refuse to pay or only pay the local beer price.
> 
> Definitions of imported on the Web:
> 
> ...



But how do you define "foreign"? Does it have to cross internationally recognised boundaries? Because technically speaking each state of Australia is a separate sovereign (since Australia is a federation), it _can_ be argued by people who are pedantic that Victorian made beer in SA is imported.


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> They are - or at least the ones brewed by fosters are. If you cant read the label and identify that it was brewed in Australia, then it wasn't.
> 
> I tend to agree though - perhaps they should be labeled "premium" or some other such guff, rather than imported. They are harder and more expensive to brew than the local products, so they will always be more expensive, but they aren't imported and shouldn't be sold as such.
> 
> Of course, thats all a bit hard for the local restaurant owner, they just know that heineken is dutch and therefore must be an import. I say just call em beer, price em as you want and let the customer decide whether the one in the green bottle has something he wants to pay extra for... bad business though.



I don't blame the restaurant owners at all really, not everyone cares as much as I do, I know that. I can understant that they are more expensive to brew than standard aussie beers, but some places charge more for them than for I normally pay for microbrewed beers, which really annoys me. I know where'd I'd rather my money went.


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## unterberg (9/1/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> They are - or at least the ones brewed by fosters are. If you cant read the label and identify that it was brewed in Australia, then it wasn't.
> 
> I tend to agree though - perhaps they should be labeled "premium" or some other such guff, rather than imported. They are harder and more expensive to brew than the local products, so they will always be more expensive, but they aren't imported and shouldn't be sold as such.
> 
> Of course, thats all a bit hard for the local restaurant owner, they just know that heineken is dutch and therefore must be an import. I say just call em beer, price em as you want and let the customer decide whether the one in the green bottle has something he wants to pay extra for... bad business though.



For those that know what to look for it is possible to find the hints but I think it should be made easier and more obvious.
But as you said - in the end its the customers choice. And for those that dont even know that the beer is actually not imported it probably doesnt make a difference because they think they buy a good brand beer. Bad business indeed and in case of the Guiness it might actually not be too good business for the brand either if people realize that this doesnt really taste that good so why pay that much for it? If only they knew...


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

DiscoStu said:


> Would be interesting to run a blind tasting of the real imported versus the locally brewed versions of these beers. I wonder how many people would really pick the real one.



As threeheads said, try contract guiness next the the real thing (I think they're both in cans). There is a huge difference, I can't believe anyone wouldn't be able to pick the difference.

People may not care about the difference, they might both be nice beers, but one is guiness and one isn't.


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## Black Dog Brewery (9/1/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> But how do you define "foreign"? Does it have to cross internationally recognised boundaries? Because technically speaking each state of Australia is a separate sovereign (since Australia is a federation), it _can_ be argued by people who are pedantic that Victorian made beer in SA is imported.




You drinking already P&C... :icon_cheers: 

Cheers BDB


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## peas_and_corn (9/1/09)

No, that's what hours and hours of reading theory does to your brain


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

Unterberg said:


> For those that know what to look for it is possible to find the hints but I think it should be made easier and more obvious.
> But as you said - in the end its the customers choice. And for those that dont even know that the beer is actually not imported it probably doesnt make a difference because they think they buy a good brand beer. Bad business indeed and in case of the Guiness it might actually not be too good business for the brand either if people realize that this doesnt really taste that good so why pay that much for it? If only they knew...



Often you don't get to see the bottle in a restaurant...just order the beer off the menu and hope that you get the imported stuff and not the locally brewed beer. My wife ordered a becks the other day and after the first sip, she asked me what was wrong with it. For starters there was barely any hop character at all...we checked the bottle and yep, brewed under contract by lion nathan. We didn't even know that Becks was contract brewed, she bought it over heineken specifically because she knew heineken was contract brewed.

This is the cause of the rant...

I don't mind bring duped, but when it's my wife...why I oughtta! :angry: :lol:


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## Bizier (9/1/09)

These damn mexican imports are disgusting...


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## DiscoStu (9/1/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> But how do you define "foreign"? Does it have to cross internationally recognised boundaries? Because technically speaking each state of Australia is a separate sovereign (since Australia is a federation), it _can_ be argued by people who are pedantic that Victorian made beer in SA is imported.



In this context from a nation other than your own. That would mean interstate beer isn't.....well maybe anything from Tasmania, it does have to cross the water to get here

Definitions of *foreign* on the Web:
of concern to or concerning the affairs of other nations (other than your own); "foreign trade"; "a foreign office"
relating to or originating in or characteristic of another place or part of the world; "foreign nations"; "a foreign accent"; "on business in a foreign city"


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## peas_and_corn (9/1/09)

Please do not confuse 'nation' and 'state/sovereign'. they are different things. However, I do get your point, I was just feeling a little pedantic (and probably still am a little )


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## DiscoStu (9/1/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> Please do not confuse 'nation' and 'state/sovereign'. they are different things. However, I do get your point, I was just feeling a little pedantic (and probably still am a little  )



Mate just having an bad day at work and being a little pendatic and fiesty, need it to be beer'o'clock before my brain explodes :wacko:


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## eamonnfoley (9/1/09)

Its just an outright con. This sort of thing is part of life I guess. Vote with your wallets and don't buy stuff brewed under license unless you really think it is an exceptional beer (which is rare)


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## eamonnfoley (9/1/09)

Ronin said:


> As threeheads said, try contract guiness next the the real thing (I think they're both in cans). There is a huge difference, I can't believe anyone wouldn't be able to pick the difference.
> 
> People may not care about the difference, they might both be nice beers, but one is guiness and one isn't.




+1 on this - was just talking about this on the beeradvocate forum actually. It is even more apparent comparing the tap versions.


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## peas_and_corn (9/1/09)

I don't think I've bought any BUL beers for a while now- that is unless Hoegaarden is made by CUB now?


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## bradsbrew (9/1/09)

So I wonder what would the legal aspect of having an " Imported" price list if the product isn't imported? I might just bring this to a managers attention next time I go to a resturant with the imported list. After I get my food that is.
I'm guessing it will be like going to the local IGA and asking for an MSDS for washing detergent or going to a a busy fuel station and wanting an MSDS for the fuel.


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## Thirsty Boy (9/1/09)

Unterberg said:


> For those that know what to look for it is possible to find the hints but I think it should be made easier and more obvious.
> But as you said - in the end its the customers choice. And for those that dont even know that the beer is actually not imported it probably doesnt make a difference because they think they buy a good brand beer. Bad business indeed and in case of the Guiness it might actually not be too good business for the brand either if people realize that this doesnt really taste that good so why pay that much for it? If only they knew...



Well, at least on the bottle of Carlsberg I had the other day, it just said "brewed by fosters" or words to that effect and gave an Australian address. Not all that cryptic

Of course... you have to buy the bottle in the first place to find out - so no help in a restaurant.


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## jonocarroll (9/1/09)

I'm still a little confused - why do breweries allow their product to be BUL at all? Surely they know that it sullies their reputation. Is it just that importers *refuse* to pay to import these beers, so BUL is the only way for the original brewery to make money? I thought that people were usually sued for making an inferior copy of a product and selling it locally - somehow for beer it's licenced to do just that! Ugh!

Actually, come to think of it, coca-cola (and related products) and cars are also 'made under licence' here. This all just seems... wrong.


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## peas_and_corn (9/1/09)

I think that Australian market is too small for them to give a crap- what is InBev's annual volume, and what would Australia drink of their product? It's also cheaper.


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## Ducatiboy stu (9/1/09)

Boags and Cascade are imported.... :lol:


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## jonocarroll (9/1/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> what is InBev's annual volume


460 million hectoliters apparently (AB-InBev). Oh - was that rhetoric?


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## devo (9/1/09)

foles said:


> +1 on this - was just talking about this on the beeradvocate forum actually. It is even more apparent comparing the tap versions.



Also the IBU's in the German brewed Becks is lower than the export or contracted variant.


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Well, at least on the bottle of Carlsberg I had the other day, it just said "brewed by fosters" or words to that effect and gave an Australian address. Not all that cryptic
> 
> Of course... you have to buy the bottle in the first place to find out - so no help in a restaurant.



yeah, that's my problem...and I'd feel like a bit of a wanker (can I say that here?) asking to see the bottle before I buy it :lol:


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

devo said:


> Also the IBU's in the German brewed Becks is lower than the export or contracted variant.



So the contract brewed Becks actually has a higher IBU? That's hard to believe from the beer my wife had the other day. The contract brewed Becks definately tasted lighter on the hops to me.


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## peas_and_corn (9/1/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> 460 million hectoliters apparently (AB-InBev). Oh - was that rhetoric?



No, I genuniely didn't know.

The thing is, it would be easier to BUL in Australia than to bother with dealing with all the hassles of local regulations and standards- let CUB or whoever makes the beer in question deal with it, take the usual fee for using the name and there you have it. I can understand them not bothering to deal with Ausralia when you have a crazy inflating market in Russia. I am not defending this, I am just saying from this perspective it makes sense.


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## devo (9/1/09)

Ronin said:


> So the contract brewed Becks actually has a higher IBU? That's hard to believe from the beer my wife had the other day. The contract brewed Becks definately tasted lighter on the hops to me.



sorry, correction. The contract/export has a lower IBU.


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## Bizier (9/1/09)

Ronin said:


> yeah, that's my problem...and I'd feel like a bit of a wanker (can I say that here?) asking to see the bottle before I buy it :lol:



I ask questions like that... I expect people to have a basic grasp of their stocked items, lowest rung employees excepted. It is amazing how many people don't even think we care about the beer we drink. I often feel that one is treated as insignificant unless you are buying top shelf wine. Obviously not at a brewpub.


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

devo said:


> sorry, correction. The contract/export has a lower IBU.



That definately makes more sense from what I tasted. I really would be interested to hear some people doing blind taste tests if they can get the imported product from anywhere. In my experience the difference is noticeable. Again, not saying the BUC beers are not nice...they just taste different IMO. 

And if what devo says is true they aren't even brewed to the same specification. How can you call it the same beer?!

Oh oh, ranting again... :lol:


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## Jase71 (9/1/09)

Unfortunately, I think most consumers of these beers don't really have the same standards that most of us here do, and the powerful driver for sales is the branding, not the taste. So if Heinekin, Stella, Carlsberg etc are to look at the majority of their target market, then the small percentage of people who will stop drinking their product as a BUL is insignificant when compared to their increased profit margin. 

But that's getting away from the point. As far as restaurants calling these beers 'imported' - well it's simply disgusting, and quite frankly it's an outright deception. It's like calling a pizza 'imported' because of it's historical origins. 

Incidentally, up until about 6 months ago, my local bottlo were selling true imported Stella, that came via Turkey or some other country. So someones still bringing in the stuff (if anyones interested I'll pop up and see of I can find the independant importer's name). Mind you, I don't really think any of the aformentioned beers are great, even imported..... .... better than swill, but I'd rather my homebrew wheatbeer or an Amber Squire.


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

Bizier said:


> I ask questions like that... I expect people to have a basic grasp of their stocked items, lowest rung employees excepted. It is amazing how many people don't even think we care about the beer we drink. I often feel that one is treated as insignificant unless you are buying top shelf wine. Obviously not at a brewpub.



See I wouldn't imagine any of the waiting staff would care/know about the beer.

Was at the elephant and the castle down in geelong (great place BTW, newcastle brown on tap :icon_drool2: ) and asked for a prickly moses/otway estate beer (which I knew they stocked). The waiter just looked at me and I had to go and show him where the beer was in the fridge!


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## Jase71 (9/1/09)

Bizier said:


> It is amazing how many people don't even think we care about the beer we drink. I often feel that one is treated as insignificant unless you are buying top shelf wine. Obviously not at a brewpub.



Not always at bottleshops either, my two closest stores both have beer-centric staff. Surprising mroe that ones a chain store ! One of the staff in question is also my neighbour, which is sweet. 

The other place is Platinum Liquor (say no more).


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## devo (9/1/09)

Ronin said:


> That definately makes more sense from what I tasted. I really would be interested to hear some people doing blind taste tests if they can get the imported product from anywhere. In my experience the difference is noticeable. Again, not saying the BUC beers are not nice...they just taste different IMO.
> 
> And if what devo says is true they aren't even brewed to the same specification. How can you call it the same beer?!
> 
> Oh oh, ranting again... :lol:



Actually my source came from a former employee of InBev so i figure it's pretty much true.


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

Jase71 said:


> Unfortunately, I think most consumers of these beers don't really have the same standards that most of us here do, and the powerful driver for sales is the branding, not the taste. So if Heinekin, Stella, Carlsberg etc are to look at the majority of their target market, then the small percentage of people who will stop drinking their product as a BUL is insignificant when compared to their increased profit margin.
> 
> But that's getting away from the point. As far as restaurants calling these beers 'imported' - well it's simply disgusting, and quite frankly it's an outright deception. It's like calling a pizza 'imported' because of it's historical origins.
> 
> Incidentally, up until about 6 months ago, my local bottlo were selling true imported Stella, that came via Turkey or some other country. So someones still bringing in the stuff (if anyones interested I'll pop up and see of I can find the independant importer's name). Mind you, I don't really think any of the aformentioned beers are great, even imported..... .... better than swill, but I'd rather my homebrew wheatbeer or an Amber Squire.



Stella has really gone downhill too, that's what I had when my wife had the Becks. And I didn't even know Carlsberg was BUC..it wasn't last time I had it (which admitedly was a while ago). These beers were the best ones we could find on the beer list of the pub we were at (in Geelong admittedly, but that's no excuse :lol: ). No James Squire in sight, which is a rant for another occasion. :lol: Surely they could have something decent....

Try finding a restaurant that doesn't advertise it as imported. Almost every restaurant I've been to that splits the beers into local and imported (not all split them and I have no problem with them) has heineken/becks/stella as an imported beer. It's not just a couple, it's almost all of them.


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## petesbrew (9/1/09)

Ronin said:


> yeah, that's my problem...and I'd feel like a bit of a wanker (can I say that here?) asking to see the bottle before I buy it :lol:


Interesting thread, but yeah, I reckon restuaranteurs will just get slabs of this or that, and not care if it's imported or BUL... it's all down to cost for them.

When SWMBO and I are out at dinner I usually look over the drinks list to see what's there... basically if there's anything different I'll always give it a go. 
But Geez, I would NOT hear the end of it from SWMBO if I asked to inspect the bottle of heineken!!! :huh: :blink: She's already calling me a beernerd, beersnob, but that'd take it to a new level.

Safer tastewise, (and marriagewise!!!) to share a bottle of wine instead. :lol:


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## jimmy01 (9/1/09)

I've done blind taste tests with the imported Stella and the Oz stuff sold under the same name. There is definitely a difference. Even mates of mine who are not "beer snobs" could pick the difference and preferred the Imported Stella.

I believe there is also a big difference between imported Heineken and the NZ brewed stuff. Try the beer from the 5l mini keg (imported) and compare it to the draught or bottled stuff sold in Oz.

Can't comment on Becks as I don't think I've ever had the original brew.

Jimmy


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## Jase71 (9/1/09)

Becks has changed for the worse too. It wasn't even about the label telling us that it was brewed locally so there's no 'mind over matter' aspect (to be honest, at the time we didnt even look). It was only after the second time a month later that i noticed it wasnt imported. 

When I started drinking imported beers a few years ago, mostly the common ones lilke Peroni, Stella & Becks, something I found was that I didn't have nearly as bad a hangover the next day compared to previously, when by comparison as little as four schooners of CUB brands (425ml for you interstaters) in a session would give me a shitty headache and carry over to the next day. And I'm no softie when it comes to huge sessions on the piss, so it's not anything to do with personal 'conditioning'. Ive kinda moved away from these beer styles now, but I wonder if the 'local imports' would do nasty things to my head in small quantities (ie four beers). In the name of science, Im going to have to try this out. 

Ultimately, lots of people still enjoy the BUL 'imported names', and good on em if they feel happy about drinking them, it may just open the mind a bit more and have them dig around the bottleshop for some better beers down the track. Sadly though, I suspect that for guys (suits especially) who like to buy them, its more about _being seen to have_ a top-shelf taste in beer than any flavour that their chosen beer imparts. 

or maybe Im just a snob when it comes to snobs. 

Funny word that. Snob.


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

petesbrew said:


> Interesting thread, but yeah, I reckon restuaranteurs will just get slabs of this or that, and not care if it's imported or BUL... it's all down to cost for them.
> 
> When SWMBO and I are out at dinner I usually look over the drinks list to see what's there... basically if there's anything different I'll always give it a go.
> But Geez, I would NOT hear the end of it from SWMBO if I asked to inspect the bottle of heineken!!! :huh: :blink: She's already calling me a beernerd, beersnob, but that'd take it to a new level.
> ...



Yeah I get beersnob too...but I'm winning, she could taste the difference between imported becks and BUC becks. And she didn't like the latter. I would've wrecked all the ground I've gained if I had've called her a beersnob too! :lol:


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

jimmy01 said:


> I've done blind taste tests with the imported Stella and the Oz stuff sold under the same name. There is definitely a difference. Even mates of mine who are not "beer snobs" could pick the difference and preferred the Imported Stella.
> 
> I believe there is also a big difference between imported Heineken and the NZ brewed stuff. Try the beer from the 5l mini keg (imported) and compare it to the draught or bottled stuff sold in Oz.
> 
> ...



I think the problem we had with heineken was that we just spent a year in the netherlands and france (who claimed heineken was a local beer!), where we drank a lot of the stuff. We then got back here and kept drinking it until we got a suprise when the taste changed, we looked at the label and saw that it was BUC. It really isn't the same, both times we've noticed a beer that was BUC by the taste, not by the packaging.

I've been thinking about those little kegs...but after I got my homebrew on tap 5L just sort of didn't cut it.


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## Muggus (9/1/09)

From past experience i've definately found a difference between imported and BUL Becks, among others.

Had an odd occurance at one point a few years back after purchasing an imported case of Becks from a local independent bottle 'o stowed away in my fridge for Christmas. 
Anyway, I managed to get one of those 'premium' mixed beer giftpack thingos for Chrissie as well that contained Becks and few other lagers. Chucked them in the fridge along with the other Becks.
Pulled out a Becks one night, had a swig "Hmmm tastes a bit off" check out the bottle "Brewed under license eh". Goto my fridge, check my other bottles with a different label in several languages and figure "Yeah why not". Crack it open and the difference was immediately apparent. Cleaner flavour, more prominant hops, more prominant maltiness, may as well be a different beer.


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## jonocarroll (9/1/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> I don't think I've bought any BUL beers for a while now- that is unless Hoegaarden is made by CUB now?


Or have you? I'm gobsmacked... Really. I picked up a 6 pack of beer tonight (pfft!! $20!), and was shocked to see this on the box. Seriously people - if this is true, we should friggin march the streets, or have a sit in at the pub (not a terrible idea, granted) or something. This had better be a printing error, not even 'for future use', 'cause seriously...

WTF!!!???!!!


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## Adamt (9/1/09)

Been done for a while QB... JSGA made at Tooheys that tastes suspiciously like Tooheys New.


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## jonocarroll (9/1/09)

Adamt said:


> Been done for a while QB... JSGA made at Tooheys that tastes suspiciously like Tooheys New.


 :huh: My impressions of this company have just been shattered.


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## smudge (9/1/09)

What frustrates me is that the megabrewers who do the 'under licence' thing are actually proving that they can brew a good beer.
Not the SAME beer, but a good beer. A locally brewed Stella is not the same as the real thing but it is still way ahead of anything
that that brewery puts out under the normal Aussie megaswill labels.

It's amazing that when a brewery is forced to use good malt, good hops and good yeast - they can make a beer that is not the same
as the intended cloned beer, but not a bad beer in its own right. Not to mention less or no sugar!!!

Back to the original topic of this thread of "imported vs premium vs local" in restaurants.....you don't want me to go there!

Cheers,
smudge


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## Bribie G (9/1/09)

Wow this thread has opened a can of worms. As I posted on a similar thread a month or two ago:

Euro, American and Japanese mega brews are only brewed under licence here if Fosters or Lion see a potential high turnover. I personally are quite happy to have my Heineken, Stella etc BUL because if this high turnover actually eventuates (for example I believe Becks has been a bit of a fizzer) and if the beer were all imported it would result in a 95% water product shipped around the planet with obscene 'food miles' clocked up with waste of the planet's resources etc. Far better to brew it here with locally sourced products and maybe just the yeast strain and hops imported.

Obviously Fosters and Lion are not going to be financially dumb enough to try to brew Staropramen, Leffe, Orkney Sheepshagger or Wells Bombardier under licence so these brews will still be available fully imported for the relatively tiny market of People Like Us who will quaff them as an occasional treat.

On balance I'm happy with the current situation and gives the great unwashed a better choice than they had back in the appalling 70s and you walked into any Queensland pub and there at the back of the bar was a tap that served beer. The beer. The only beer.

However, on topic re original post, selling BUL as genuine imported should be reported to consumer affairs and the perps should be fined heavily.


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## flattop (9/1/09)

See you Queenslanders had Joe.....

We had Carlton Draft, Melbourne and Vic bitter on tap. Ohh and the loaded dog


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## jonocarroll (9/1/09)

The thing is that the whole 'brewed under licence' thing just means that another brewery has been given the recipe, and is allowed to use the branding, right? Now I'm sure those recipes aren't full-on secret squirrel stuff (they probably change them slightly anyway) so that's no problem. The main cost is then the branding. But if a brewery can make a beer of 'import' quality, why do they bother with the branding at all? Why don't they just make a premium beer?... Because people will pay extra for the branding alone. It's stupid, but try telling that to the guys in suits drinking 'fashionable' crown lager.

It's no better than asian/otherwise knock-off brands if you ask me. If you're after quality, don't buy a Rollex [sic]. If you can't tell the difference - go for the cheap one. If you know what you're looking for, pay the cost of a Rolex, or track down the import.


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

BribieG said:


> Wow this thread has opened a can of worms. As I posted on a similar thread a month or two ago:
> 
> Euro, American and Japanese mega brews are only brewed under licence here if Fosters or Lion see a potential high turnover. I personally are quite happy to have my Heineken, Stella etc BUL because if this high turnover actually eventuates (for example I believe Becks has been a bit of a fizzer) and if the beer were all imported it would result in a 95% water product shipped around the planet with obscene 'food miles' clocked up with waste of the planet's resources etc. Far better to brew it here with locally sourced products and maybe just the yeast strain and hops imported.
> 
> ...



I agree...the current situation is not that bad at all...BUC heineken is ok, becks and stella weren't great but they are often the only alternatives to carlton, vb etc. (I am ignoring BUC guiness as not worthing of bearing the name).

The problem is the problem is too widespread in restaurants. I've been paying attention the last few months when I've been eating out. A lot of places (and I mean a lot), have these brewed under contract beers as imported. There would be a lot of fines given out, and I don't necessarily want places that are trying to serve better than the standard stuff penalised. Don't know what the solution is.


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## Ronin (9/1/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> The thing is that the whole 'brewed under licence' thing just means that another brewery has been given the recipe, and is allowed to use the branding, right? Now I'm sure those recipes aren't full-on secret squirrel stuff (they probably change them slightly anyway) so that's no problem. The main cost is then the branding. But if a brewery can make a beer of 'import' quality, why do they bother with the branding at all? Why don't they just make a premium beer?... Because people will pay extra for the branding alone. It's stupid, but try telling that to the guys in suits drinking 'fashionable' crown lager.
> 
> It's no better than asian/otherwise knock-off brands if you ask me. If you're after quality, don't buy a Rollex [sic]. If you can't tell the difference - go for the cheap one. If you know what you're looking for, pay the cost of a Rolex, or track down the import.



Yeah sort of reminds me of the simpsons episode when Homer was touring the duff plant and they had the 3 pipes all from the same source going into Duff, Duff light and Duff dry.


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## jonocarroll (9/1/09)

Ronin said:


> The problem is the problem is too widespread in restaurants. I've been paying attention the last few months when I've been eating out. A lot of places (and I mean a lot), have these brewed under contract beers as imported. There would be a lot of fines given out, and I don't necessarily want places that are trying to serve better than the standard stuff penalised. Don't know what the solution is.


Of course, the restaurants could just claim that by 'imported' they mean 'imported style'. Let's all remember that the restaurants are free to charge whatever they like - we just don't have to pay their prices.

I'm actually waiting for the government to enforce sticking 'made in Australia' stickers on all these BULs the same way they are with canned goods. Let's see how the breweries like that!


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## unterberg (9/1/09)

smudge said:


> What frustrates me is that the megabrewers who do the 'under licence' thing are actually proving that they can brew a good beer.
> Not the SAME beer, but a good beer. A locally brewed Stella is not the same as the real thing but it is still way ahead of anything
> that that brewery puts out under the normal Aussie megaswill labels.
> 
> ...


That is a really good point indeed. Even though the licence might not taste anything like the real thing it might still be a good drop. A shame that the big breweries dont start thinking about that and actually try to make their other output a bit more higher quality as well. But then again they have their customers that are used to the old thing and why change that lucrative product.

BribieG got a point with the ecological as well as economical aspect. In the end it is the customers decision. And some of the german beers I like to get like Schneider, Erdinger and co are just not having the marketshare to be worthwhile licencing. 
But then again I only get them occasionally and normally prefer my own effort or a good Aussie drop.


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## buttersd70 (10/1/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Of course, the restaurants could just claim that by 'imported' they mean 'imported style'. Let's all remember that the restaurants are free to charge whatever they like - we just don't have to pay their prices.



They can charge whatever they like, but are (theoretically) restricted by legislation in regards to how they advertise the product. It is a breach of TPA to advertise a product as one thing, when it is clearly not. Regardless of if the pricing of that item is at a premium or not. Simple fact of the matter is, it is illeagal to sell a product as 'imported' when it is, in fact, made on-shore. Regardless of the origin of the style, or even the brand.


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## clean brewer (10/1/09)

Ronin said:


> See I wouldn't imagine any of the waiting staff would care/know about the beer.
> 
> Was at the elephant and the castle down in geelong (great place BTW, newcastle brown on tap :icon_drool2: ) and asked for a prickly moses/otway estate beer (which I knew they stocked). The waiter just looked at me and I had to go and show him where the beer was in the fridge!



That is probably the truth in the majority of cases about Wait staff etc..

My Parents in Law own a Restaurant and im the Chef and run the floor also, as far as charging for beers, Lights are $4, Mids are $4.50, Aussie generic are $5.00 and "premium" are $6...

Alot (majority) of places charge an absolute fortune for premium/imported/BUL beers, I see it as selling them for a price that someone will buy 2 @ $6 each than only buy 1 because they are too dear, make better money that way..

We are also talking about the general public here and there perception of beer(ours is a little different), most customers dont really give a shit, they just want a "crownie or corona or whatever", its generally a look or style that they want to portray to their guests or others.. Shit, I used to do it when I was on the Piss out at the Pub/Club, everyone else would be drinking VB or XXXX and id be walking around with my Corona thinking I was the ducks nuts as I would be the only one drinking them and most of the people probably thought the $6.50 price tag was a bit excessive for them..

On new years eve, 2 guys in the Restaurant drank 24 Coronas themselves, ching ching, $6 x 24 = $144(cost $50 a carton), who cares?? If they are happy to buy them, so be it, we have to make money..

Everythings the same, people are in business to make money and make it how they will, you can decide whether its worth it or not...

I dont eat out at the majority of places as I see no effort by the Chef in there food, so why should I pay a premium for some crap on a plate thats overpriced for what it is?? Im happy to pay for food that I see some time, effort and quality has been put into it and I have been given service that is deserved of the price....


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## brenjak (22/1/09)

I really dont hin the average Aussie bloke, or gal for that matter, is even aware that these beers BuL. Having just come back from Germany i can tell the difference in Beck's. Subtle but definately there. Is is true Heineken mini kegs are imported?



QuantumBrewer said:


> I'm still a little confused - why do breweries allow their product to be BUL at all? Surely they know that it sullies their reputation. Is it just that importers *refuse* to pay to import these beers, so BUL is the only way for the original brewery to make money? I thought that people were usually sued for making an inferior copy of a product and selling it locally - somehow for beer it's licenced to do just that! Ugh!
> 
> Actually, come to think of it, coca-cola (and related products) and cars are also 'made under licence' here. This all just seems... wrong.


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## RetsamHsam (22/1/09)

I had an experience with Heineken, had 2 of them one after the other at local club. The first one was bland hop flavour and aroma almost muted and the second was distinctively different, full of flavour and aroma, after this I checked the two bottles and sure enough one was Imported and the other was BUL


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## devo (22/1/09)

we shouldn't complain really...we have all obviously seen the light long ago hence why we make our own excise free home brew. :beerbang:


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## matti (22/1/09)

RetsamHsam said:


> I had an experience with Heineken, had 2 of them one after the other at local club. The first one was bland hop flavour and aroma almost muted and the second was distinctively different, full of flavour and aroma, after this I checked the two bottles and sure enough one was Imported and the other was BUL



I only support locally made beerS now.

ON that note my brother in law got a case of Pilsner urquell to try it out and he couldn't stand the taste of it.
At x-mas he brought me the rest of the case because he knows I drink everything.

Well I have never tasted a really heat shocked beer before, but this was a putred.
It is hard to describe a skunky malt beer but it is like drinking an old sock.

It was on special! Now I know why.


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## quantocks (22/1/09)

Adamt said:


> Been done for a while QB... JSGA made at Tooheys that tastes suspiciously like Tooheys New.




I picked my first JSGA from Dan Murphy's last week and was _completely_ blown away. It's like liquid gold, something I've never experienced before and it was amazing!

I went to 1st Choice tonight and bought a 6 pack for 17 bucks, surprise surprise, when I open the bottle it smells like New. WTF, this can't be right?

I had two bottles, it was absolutely _nothing_ like the one I had from Dan's last week. a huge disappointment and I won't be purchasing it again, after I thought I'd found my favourite beer.


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## Jase71 (22/1/09)

+1 Quantocks. Commercial (bottled) JSGA for me is still a bloody good local beer, even if it may have dimiished over time. 

Maybe your 2nd run was a pirate copy from Hong Kong. I hear they rip EVERYTHING off.


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## mattcarty (23/1/09)

mmmmmmm JSGA oh how i love thee, this has become my new standard beer of choice, sick of going to too many pubs ordering a pint of coopers pale ale and getting the bottom of the keg, "yeah i asked for beer not bloody MURRAY WATER!

anyway

what pisses me off is BUL brews that still sell for the cost of imported beers, i dont mind paying $7 for an Imp pint of kilkenny or guiness if its the real stuff but for a BUL brew how can ya charge the same price as an imported beer?

oh well i guess theres always Crown Lager (thats a premium beer right?  )

cheers
carty


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## Bizier (23/1/09)

I had a glass of JS amber while pretending to be a USYD student at the Lansdowne tonight. It was watery and disgusting. I remember this beer having at least some character and mouthfeel.


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## Jase71 (23/1/09)

You were at the Lansdowne ? Is there ANY soul left in that place? 

Apart from being an old regular, I saw the Tea Party's first ever australian show there. 

And some iOTA gigs. 

Wrong forum............


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## Bizier (23/1/09)

Short answer: No.

But it was on the way home, and I definitely felt (at the ripe age of 25) old.


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## Jase71 (23/1/09)

Hang on, how can you say "no" to being there, when an earlier post said you were there ?


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## buttersd70 (23/1/09)

Jase71 said:


> Hang on, how can you say "no" to being there, when an earlier post said you were there ?



I have a feeling his "no" was in reference to your second question, Jase...


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## quantocks (23/1/09)

Jase71 said:


> Hang on, how can you say "no" to being there, when an earlier post said you were there ?




is there ANY soul left in the place? no.

was what was referred to


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## Jase71 (23/1/09)

OK, point taken. 

Does anyone remember the Bowling Club across the road from the Lansdowne (in the park - Victoria?) ? It was knocked down about 10 years ago. *
*


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## Bizier (23/1/09)

no


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## Bizier (23/1/09)

But I do remember Mascon Festival.

ED: Actually I do remember there being more than just the gate that is currently there.


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## quantocks (23/1/09)

Jase71 said:


> OK, point taken.
> 
> Does anyone remember the Bowling Club across the road from the Lansdowne (in the park - Victoria?) ? It was knocked down about 10 years ago. *
> *




10 years ago I was 15, so I do remember drinking _in parks_ just not that club in that park.


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## Jase71 (23/1/09)

Bizier said:


> But I do remember Mascon Festival.
> 
> ED: Actually I do remember there being more than just the gate that is currently there.



LOL, sure, but it was hardly Burning Man

I saw a very adolescent silverchair at the Vic Park Bowling Club. Groupies at 14 ? Wow !


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## Bizier (23/1/09)

Burning Man... Cut your hair hippy!


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## Jase71 (23/1/09)

It's often deceiving to some that my bald head belies a long-hair life outlook. 

SO you're not the first one to tell me that !


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## peas_and_corn (23/1/09)

Bizier said:


> no



Perhaps, but I'm pretty sure their hops aren't organic


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## Darren (23/1/09)

matt carty said:


> sick of going to too many pubs ordering a pint of coopers pale ale and getting the bottom of the keg, "yeah i asked for beer not bloody MURRAY WATER!
> 
> cheers
> carty




Matt,

That would be the beginning of the keg I would suspect!! Perhaps buy your CPA by the bottle??

cheers

Darren


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## peas_and_corn (23/1/09)

Ahh I remember getting a pint of Orange Coopers- the guy at the pub tried to convince me that pints like that have people runing to get one. I told him to pour it down the sink and give me a stubbie.


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## Bribie G (23/1/09)

Fortunately we don't have to put up with any of that nonsense on Bribie Island where the tap lineup consists of 

Pub:

VB
Carlton Draught
XXXX
XXXX gold
Hahn Special Light
Pure Blonde


RSL

Above plus:
Tooheys Old and New
Guinness (brewed at Yatala of course)
Cascade light for the real old diggers who can't drink beer any more.


There used to be Stella, Kilkenny and Becks at one stage but they have fallen by the wayside.


Having said that it's an improvement on when I arrived in Queensland in the late 70s where beer on tap consisted of:

XXXX pubs: XXXX
Carlton pubs: Carlton

:blink:


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## reviled (23/1/09)

The BUL stuff is completely different from the original product, and the thing is, the BUL stuff in aussie is completely different to the BUL stuff in NZ, take Heineken for example, in NZ its bitter, where as the Aus equivilant is a million times sweeter!! Its crazy! I think they tweak the recipe to appeal to the local market...


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## Ronin (23/1/09)

reviled said:


> The BUL stuff is completely different from the original product, and the thing is, the BUL stuff in aussie is completely different to the BUL stuff in NZ, take Heineken for example, in NZ its bitter, where as the Aus equivilant is a million times sweeter!! Its crazy! I think they tweak the recipe to appeal to the local market...



But what they don't realise is that I (we?) buy their beers because they aren't like anything available on the locally brewed market! 

Was at the Fairfield boathouse on saturday and my wife (bless her) asked the staff whether the becks was imported. It was, and the difference is incredible. I can't describe the actual flavour, but I get the same flavour in the last few Helles I've brewed with Weyermanns pilsner malt. That flavour is completely absent in the BUC version. Local malts maybe? The malt flavour was so much more obvious and was much better balanced by the bitterness.

James


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## reviled (23/1/09)

Luckily Becks hasnt managed to crack into the BUL market over here, means you end up paying $25 for a dozen becks instead of $20 for a dozen Stella, but I mean, what would you rather do?


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## mattcarty (26/1/09)

Jase71 said:


> You were at the Lansdowne ? Is there ANY soul left in that place?
> 
> I saw the Tea Party's first ever australian show there.



DUDE, nice one!

foaming at the mouth, oh wait thats just the icecreaam i poured from my unbalanced keg setup  

cheers
carty


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## mattcarty (26/1/09)

Darren said:


> Matt,
> 
> That would be the beginning of the keg I would suspect!! Perhaps buy your CPA by the bottle??
> 
> ...




 buy bottled beer at a pub, how dare you!

but seriousely, I do love the stuff dont get me wrong, but JSGA is a much better drop anyway IMHO.

cheers
carty


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