# Your Beer, Your Kids And Your Attitude



## RobB (29/1/11)

When I was a kid, my father would let me have a small sip of his beer or wine. It was only ever a tiny sip and I appreciated that it was a treat. Without ever being lectured, I was somehow aware of the effects of alcohol, who could and who shouldn't drink it and under-age binge drinking was something which held no temptation for me at all.

Fast forward to now and my nine year old daughter is also allowed a teaspoon sized sip of my drink. There are well established limits - If she tries to turn a sip into a gulp, she gets a boot up the bum and loses her 'sipping privileges', requests for a second sip are met with a flat "no" and she has to tell me about the beer or wine which she has just tasted. Did she pick up the banana in the hefeweizen? What fruit did the hops remind her of?

Hopefully, I'm creating a preference in her mind for quality over quantity. Part of my thinking is also following the Italian model, whereby kids are allowed small or diluted amounts of wine with meals, removing any mystique surrounding alcohol and developing a healthy appreciation for it.

The reason for me typing this? A couple of my nieces are allowed to have a drink at family gatherings, even though they are 16 and 17. They are only allowed one and their parents reason that they would rather them try alcohol under their watchful eye than at unsupervised parties. What made me wince was the choice of drink - alcopops. Their introduction to alcohol is some fluorescent blue concoction which is as sugary as the soft drinks they have always consumed. Maybe my opinions are a little coloured by snobbery, but I think the parents good intentions are being undone by the choice of beverage. 

Am I just being a snob or do you think I have a point? What's your attitude to your kids around the endless supply of beer in your house?


----------



## DU99 (29/1/11)

i have always allowed my kids to sample what dad's drinking as my father did the same with me, i tend to think the kids that aren't allowed to drink are the troublesome ones in the pub scene,they dont how to handle it..now i have grand children and there not interested at the moment..but i wont go off the handle if there sneaking a sip..my grandkids actually watch brew and bottle


----------



## bconnery (29/1/11)

Personally I will be trying to educate my kids on levels of responsible drinking and also drinking well, but am also realistic that at some point she well drink to excess as well all do while learning our limits in life. 
Drink less drink better was a phrase I heard somewhere...

Related, but just a story I like to tell...
My 3 year old watched me serve some homebrew to some visitors and they went to take a sip at which she exclaimed 'No! You have to smell it first!"
I've taught her well already


----------



## DU99 (29/1/11)

Nice story..my 2nd eldest(28) dont drink at all,but she smells the beer and likes the aromatics..


----------



## waggastew (29/1/11)

I grew up with the 'occasional sip' model. My parents drank good wine and the odd beer so it all tasted crap to me. I can imagine what I would have thought however if they drank Jim Beam cans or Breezers. Yummo, cordial!

The biggest effect on me was their drinking habits, one bottle of wine shared between them on a Saturday night (with the odd party thrown in). No regular drinking on week nights. Didn't see them pissy till I was 20.

Putting my own experiences aside and putting my scientist hat on the current research says this: Do not give your kids any alcohol at all. No sips, no watered down drinks, no nothing. Solid studies have found that giving your kids 3 cruisers to take to a party means they will drink three more drinks than they would have anyway. Plenty of people will raise the 'My parents gave me drinks......' defense but the empirical evidence does not support it.

As a Dad of a 9 month old I have thought and read about this quite alot. The general advice is this:

1. Drink how you want your kids to drink when they are adults
2. Don't give them alcohol ever
3. Pick them up from parties (when under aged) so you know if they have been drinking
4. NEVER buy alcohol to be consumed by others kids, even if this is at a private residence. It is against the law in NSW.

Sorry for the rant but the Aussie drinking culture has gotta change and that ain't gonna happen unless parents do something about it.


----------



## j1gsaw (29/1/11)

My 2 older kids (3&4) are always annoying me to try whatever im drinking at the time, it usually ends up with them having a sip, getting mostly froth and followed by ewwww... little turds.. <_<


----------



## Phoney (29/1/11)

I dont have kids myself, but ive had this discussion with new parents quite a few times. Some are of your persuasion, others are of the no-way-hosay opinion.

Personally, my sisters & I were allowed to have a can of Tooheys 2.2 (remember that stuff?) with dinner very, very occasionally (like once a year) from about age 10 onwards. Whereas my best mate over the road was never even allowed a sip. The result? Well, the both of us still snuck into his dad's garage and nicked a couple of stubbies to go and drink in the back paddock and fall over and giggle every now and then. Then when we were 16/17 we went to parties in people's paddocks and skulled entire bottles of cheap rum and then proceeded to puke our guts up for the rest of the night - and regretted it for next 3 weeks after.... So my point is kids & teenagers will always try and seek out booze on their own to be naughty - just like with cigarette's - no matter what their parents attitude is imo... Whether it's just a part of growing up, or a part of Aussie culture I dunno... But I reckon we've all been there.


----------



## MarkBastard (29/1/11)

I don't have any kids, but I'd let them sip my home brew to see what it tastes like, and when they're at drinking age (about 15/16) I'd let them drink but make sure they know some advice before hand.

The girls you've talked about probably drink lolly-water every weekend. And yes you are being a bit snobby about it.

Wagga, each to their own, but the government are wankers and the Australian drinking culture doesn't need changing. The Australian wowser culture is what needs changing.


----------



## DU99 (29/1/11)

and who leads the wowser culture..the reformed drunks that my view


----------



## MarkBastard (29/1/11)

I dunno to be honest. Some people lack the capacity to think outside the square the media keeps them in. Some people genuinely are teetotallers. Some people take pleasure in sticking their noses in other peoples business. Some people give up their freedom for their perceived 'safety' way too easily.

The common theme is the lack of empathy. Most people are happy for things they don't care about to be banned, as long as they can still do the things they do care about.


----------



## InCider (29/1/11)

My three year old has his own fermenter.. :blink: 





He cleans it, puts sticks in it, has his own piece of hose to drain water into it....

Since he (youngest ) and the middle one were born I've been brewing. The middle one (girl) has always helped brew, and loves the water and cleaning aspect of the whole business just like the smallest kiddy.

They see me have a beer or two when i get home from work, sometimes they help me pour from the tap!

Can I shield them from this? Sure. Will I? Nah.... but I am responsible, and they mimic that. They did ask why I hadn't shared Baa Bra with the other pool toys though.

If only I hadn't yelled '****' when I bumped my alarm clock/weather station into the fermenter one day! :lol:


----------



## jasonharley (29/1/11)

Arh the Australian Women's Christian Temperance Movement............


----------



## Braumoasta (29/1/11)

I was brought up having the occasional sip of mum or dads wine or beer at dinner, or while dad was cooking a bbq. As someone has already mentioned, it is now recommended not to give underage children any alcohol whatsoever. All I have to say is what a load of bulls dust. The truth is a lot of teenagers are going to find a way of getting alcohol, whether it be stealing it from the parents or getting it from external sources. If by small chance they get to legal drinking age without ever having had a sip of alcohol, how the hell are they supposed to know how much alcohol they can handle or what the effects of alcohol are. A slow but steady introduction to alcohol, in my opinion, is the best method. As they are reaching legal drinking age, let them understand what alcohol can do, the good and the bad. Let them know they have to manage their alcohol consumption, and try to the best of your abilities to teach them that alcohol is a great thing when savoured for what it is, like good food. It should not be seen as a method of forgetting problems, or just getting pissed.


----------



## wobblythongs (29/1/11)

Is it Germany where the legal age to buy *beer only* is 16 until they turn 18 then can buy anything they please.


----------



## Braumoasta (29/1/11)

wobblythongs said:


> Is it Germany where the legal age to buy *beer only* is 16 until they turn 18 then can buy anything they please.



Yes, Beer and wine at 16, everything else at 18.


----------



## pbrosnan (29/1/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I don't have any kids, but I'd let them sip my home brew to see what it tastes like, and when they're at drinking age (about 15/16) I'd let them drink but make sure they know some advice before hand.
> 
> The girls you've talked about probably drink lolly-water every weekend. And yes you are being a bit snobby about it.
> 
> Wagga, each to their own, but the government are wankers and the Australian drinking culture doesn't need changing. The Australian wowser culture is what needs changing.


Have to disagree. Somethings wrong when it's verboten to sell booze in a supermarket or deli. Is it because we can't be trusted or is it to protect a few vested interests? A bit of both I'd suggest. Still, idiots manage to create enough havoc to ruin it for the rest of us.


----------



## praxis178 (29/1/11)

wobblythongs said:


> Is it Germany where the legal age to buy *beer only* is 16 until they turn 18 then can buy anything they please.



I believe that's true of Denmark as well. Always freaks me out reading what the cousins get up to (most are 15-18), till I remember that beer is ok for their age group over there..... No binge drinking culture to speak of over there, do the kids over there get drunk, yes from time to time, but more often than not they have two or three stubbies and chat/listen to music/watch tv.

Oh yeah I'm of the sip at dinner etc. generation, as is my sister (my other brother and sister aren't, guess which have the problem), oh yeah I started brewing while in grade 11, didn't get to drink any though. :angry:


----------



## [email protected] (29/1/11)

I got to try most things my parents were into. Fine foods, expensive wines and the odd crownie ect.
Id say it increased my appreciation of good foods and drink and encourage me to try different things.
Nowdays i will happily try any foods or drink.

I had friends that were treated like mushrooms, when they hit 17 - 18 it was on for years to come.
I still had a bit if a binge drinking sesh now and then but it was short lived and turned my attention to
finding quality things that i enjoy instead of getting blazed.

But i think when it comes to intoxicants of all kinds its a very fine line between education and possible conditioning
into having a substance abuse problem.
Moderation and appreciation need to be taught along with it.


----------



## waggastew (29/1/11)

Coupla things to think about and fuel the discussion:

1. People have a habit of viewing their own drinking habits as 'normal' while seeing others as 'a problem'. Here is a great example from my work place. My boss and his wife go to the Hunter Valley for a vintage dinner for a winery they subscribe to. Have a great time, drink too much wine, wife spews in the loo, much hilarity as the boss tells us at lunchtime the next week. General view is what a great night. Four weeks later the boss' 18yo son falls over in a bathroom at a party and breaks his shoulder. Promising basketball career over for ever. Boss and wife both think that teenage drinking culture is terrible......

2. Mark^Bastard - Don't you think there is a need to change the way Aussies drink? Not all Aussies, but a significant proportion of the population? I agree that it should not be a matter of the government telling us what we HAVE to do. But surely they should tell us we SHOULD do based on solid medical research? Surely it is our responsibility particularly as parents to do the best for our kids based on the best information we have to hand, not just our personal views/experiences? I know that sounds a bit formal but there are so many areas where people raise their kids based on their own ideas that are either outdated, ill informed or just plain wrong. Prime examples include anti-vaccination, anti-fluoride groups etc. 

3. Thomas J. - Denmark ranks equal with Britain in OECD countries in terms of under age drinking (number of times 13-15yo have been drunk). Having said that if I lived in a country where it was dark half the year I would be tempted to get loaded every night. I still remember going out for breakfast in Copenhagen with some locals and getting a free shot of schnapps with my breakfast platter. SKOL!

4. There is a large amount of research coming out that points to significant harm associated with drinking between the ages of 14-18 years of age. We are talking about prime time laying down of brain circuitry time. In my area we have kids who are 14/15 getting smashed EVERY weekend. Funnily enough they seem to be a bit rusty at school on Monday mornings! What kind of patterns is this setting up for the future? Where the f&%k are their parents?

Either way it is and should be a personal choice. Having kids made me think long and hard about how much (an how often) I drink. There are so many variables, who knows if my daughter will have the 'mmmmm more vodka' gene?

Stew


----------



## Tony (29/1/11)

Beer4U said:


> I got to try most things my parents were into. Fine foods, expensive wines and the odd crownie ect.
> Id say it increased my appreciation of good foods and drink and encourage me to try different things.
> Nowdays i will happily try any foods or drink.
> 
> ...



+1

Oh this is exactly what i was going to post so i will save the time and agree!

My Dad worked for Tooheys all my life. I grew up with drinking all around me, but it was always in moderation, and i was always alowed a taste when i asked. 

YEah i snuck piss here and there when i was a teen but thats a human nature thing of the teenager. If Alcahol was not available and C4 was...... i would have gone and blown shit up! Its how it is wit hsome kids, that will never change.

I had a period of binging but this was linked with a period of deep depression and a dark part of my life where i lost most of my late 20's to working 14 hr days, 7 days a week.

I dug out of that hole eventually and turned to the finer things in life, i wanted to experience what life had to offer, and still do. 

quality over quantity!

The only time i have been fall down drunk in the last 15 years in when Ducatiboystu came for the day and we pollished off a bottle of turky before lunch...... and then some after.

I will NEVER get that drunk again i tell ya!

I have been doing some thinking about all this lately. I have a step son...... turnes 17 this year. When my bro and i sample a fine single malt, i will let him have a sniff and say...... smell the peat smoke, or the leather, or the salt. We talk to him about flavours and aromas, and i can see he is interested in the fine side of it. I talk to him about drinking responsibly and what happens if you dont...... how it can all go wrong and cause your drunk, you dont know till its too late.

He has just got his L's and i liken alcahol to driving. I strongly believe driving should part of highschool education, and when a 16 yearold gets his or her L's they should already know the basics of car control before they are let loose on the road in traffic.

What happens when a fresh learner gets in a car and even under adult supervision, tries to drive on a busy road? 

Its all bad.

Alcahol IMO is similar, not the same but similar in theory

cheers


----------



## bignath (29/1/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I dunno to be honest. Some people lack the capacity to think outside the square the media keeps them in. Some people genuinely are teetotallers. Some people take pleasure in sticking their noses in other peoples business. Some people give up their freedom for their perceived 'safety' way too easily.
> 
> The common theme is the lack of empathy. Most people are happy for things they don't care about to be banned, as long as they can still do the things they do care about.




There have been some good points raised so far for both sides of the coin, but this one....

Mark^Bastard - i would vote you to run the country for sure... I completely agree with this comment mate.

My dad (who used to brew when i was a little bloke, stopped, and then took it back up again a few years ago) told me:

"if you want to drink beer, don't ever do it behind my back. We'll go to the bottle shop, buy a box and we'll sit down and drink it as two adults in a safe environment".

"if you want to try cigarettes, don't ever do it behind my back. We'll go to the servo, buy a pack and come home and smoke them". 

With the cigarettes. I hid them from him for a week or two and then felt so guilty, i opened a fresh pack right in front of him and said sorry. I've since quit a few years ago.

With the beer. I had a few sips when i was real young (less than 10yo) and swore i'd never drink it. Tried it again at around 15 or 16 and thought it wasn't soooooo bad. Then remembered dad's advice and was honest about going out for a drink once i was legal.

to this day i still feel guilty about the cigarette stashing, but i learnt my lesson. 

I have two little tackers, and not quite sure how i will approach this topic with them, as they (him more than her) are becoming increasingly aware and interested in my brewing practises. My boy when he was just turning 4, told the cop up the road, "my dad's got a freezer full of hops (flowers) and he needs them to make beer". 

time will tell how i handle the drinking thing, but it's an interesting topic for sure....

bignath


----------



## BjornJ (29/1/11)

waggastew said:


> Coupla things to think about and fuel the discussion:
> 
> 3. Thomas J. - Denmark ranks equal with Britain in OECD countries in terms of under age drinking (number of times 13-15yo have been drunk). Having said that if I lived in a country where it was dark half the year I would be tempted to get loaded every night. I still remember going out for breakfast in Copenhagen with some locals and getting a free shot of schnapps with my breakfast platter. SKOL!
> 
> ...





Don't blame The Darkness for drinking.

In Norway our "natives" are called Same, or Lapp. They were driven North by the vikings and now live in the extreme north of Norway, Finland and to some extent Sweden.
They have not been treated nicely, to be short and sharp.

They drink less than "white" Norwegians though. So less work, more social welfare, separate language, looooooooong dark, depressive winters that never end, and they drink less.
(I know after doing military service for a year up there. They have massive parties when the sun comes back in May).

statistical evidence: http://mighealth.net/no/index.php/Substance_abuse 

But then again we always hear of the Finish drinking way to much, sitting in the dark woods of Finland getting depressed.

Maybe the darkness has an influence after all  


Seriously, 
I agree with teaching kids to drink in moderation. 
They will drink.
They will experiment, learn, challenge themselves and others.
Let's give them some ballast by being good role models, drinking in moderation and letting them have the occational sip.
Make it natural, normal, non-tabu.
But with clear limits, "you are not old enough yet".
I believe that is more healthy than trying to completely ban alcohol.
I will let my daughter have the odd half a sip to show her the taste is not something she wants.
THen when she is older let her try in small doses at home, rather than letting the first ever try be at some party far from home.


Anyway, 
my 2c.

Bjorn


----------



## Kai (30/1/11)

Malty Cultural said:


> The reason for me typing this? A couple of my nieces are allowed to have a drink at family gatherings, even though they are 16 and 17. They are only allowed one and their parents reason that they would rather them try alcohol under their watchful eye than at unsupervised parties. What made me wince was the choice of drink - alcopops. Their introduction to alcohol is some fluorescent blue concoction which is as sugary as the soft drinks they have always consumed. Maybe my opinions are a little coloured by snobbery, but I think the parents good intentions are being undone by the choice of beverage.



I read this, thought back and had to add: I remember once when I was in my early teens (or maybe younger) I was allowed to have a West Coast Cooler.

I think I chose mango. Or maybe peach?

All things considered I think I turned out OK (for the most part)


----------



## Bribie G (30/1/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> *I don't have any kids*, but I'd let them sip my home brew to see what it tastes like, and when they're at drinking age (about 15/16) I'd let them drink but make sure they know some advice before hand.
> 
> The girls you've talked about probably drink lolly-water every weekend. And yes you are being a bit snobby about it.
> 
> Wagga, each to their own, but the government are wankers and the Australian drinking culture doesn't need changing. The Australian wowser culture is what needs changing.


So is that you in your sig, you obviously started early  
My two 20-somethings have turned out fine, they have a pint or two but no more when they are round here for a visit. Their stepfather is German and they would always have one glass of wine at Xmas as teenagers and that was about it. When my oldest - who came back to live with me during high school - turned 18 he bought a bottle of Bundy to see what all the fuss was about and it was still sitting gathering dust in his room 2/3 full when he moved out the next year.


----------



## jyo (30/1/11)

Personal experience is a bitch of a thing, because everyone has some. 

My Dad and Granddad used to let my brothers and I drink from an early age. It was 'sips' and shandys from age 7 or so, and at age 13 I was allowed to drink a stubbie or two or a scotch and coke. Many of my mates were brought up with the same boundaries drawn by their parents. My Dad always said that you can enjoy a drink without getting pissed. I saw him pissed many times.

Yes I was a binge drinker as a teenager. Yes I was a binge drinker as an adult. I still binge drink on occasion. So did/do my aforementioned mates. 

I also have mates whose parents never drank/never drink. These friends were binge drinkers as teenagers. They were binge drinkers as adults. They still binge drink on occasion. They however, had to hide their drinking as teenagers, or come to my place!

Our 18 year old girl was brought up being allowed to have a sip of wine from about the age of 13. She was always told that you don't need to get pissed to enjoy yourself. She has seen me pissed a few times.
She binge drinks on rare occasions. She is far more responsible and in control with alcohol than I was at her age...far more responsible.

My 3 year old girl sees me have a beer or two on most days. She has asked for a sip a few times and was told no. She will continue to be told no until she is much older than when I was allowed to.
Much of the current research which has been mentioned suggests that no alcohol as children is the best way to go, but rather education. I think its about finding a balance between the two. 
Cheers, John.


----------



## warra48 (30/1/11)

I think the behaviour of parents so far as alcohol is concerned does influence kids. Undoubtedly most, if not all, will experiment with alcohol or tobacco at some stage, but if they've been shown responsible behaviour by their parents, there's a good chance they will eventually come to their senses.

I grew up with my parents never drinking, other than a beer or small glass of liquor at family events, and a bottle of red at Easter and Christmas.

I've never been a large imbiber, although I did go through a short period in my early/mid 20s when I consumed quite heavily at times. However, I grew out of that, and since then have always gone for quality over quantity. 

Our two kids grew up with their mother never drinking alcohol, and with myself having a drink about once a week. Whenever I had a drink they were welcome to try some of it. They've never seen me drunk, and my alcohol consumption was always as a thirst quenching beer, or a glass of wine as an adjunct to a meal. We never drank just for the sake of drinking alcohol.

The result is our daughter doesn't drink at all, and our son is a very light occasional drinker only.

I think the same applies to smoking, neither my wife nor I smoke, nor do our daughter and son. I know our daughter experimented with smoking and very probably other stuff during her time at Uni, but she is well past that now.


----------



## brettprevans (30/1/11)

Wish I could remember where the last thread on this topic is as its a very interesting/important/topical issue that is ideal for a forum like ours to discuss because as brewers we appreciate tge art taste etc and have a differant tilt on alc than most. 

That all being said I was allowed sips when I was 9 I think. Mostly good reds and usually only on speci al occasions. I had to tell them what I tasted etc. I developed a love of wine and collect wine ever since I could buy it. It was a solid sensible respect for alc. My first full beer was Xmas day and I was 13 or 14. 1 beer only and at was at a 4star restaurant with my immediate family whilst my old man was cooking in the kitchen (he was head chef). I still remember that day. I think from then on I could have 1 beer or 1/2 wine at Xmas but that was the only time. It was only sips to try things any other time

All my alc experianced growing up good wine port etc gave me an appreciation for quality. 

My 2 kids (4&3) get to smell my beer wine etc but no tasting till their older. They know what beer wine etc looks like and what it's made from. We educated them. Same as they know that beef is from cows lamb is a sheep etc, know what most veggies at a supermarket or our garden are, like to cook etc. Education. Teach them. If there is a vaccine they will go fill it with whatever they can find

Now obviously this isn't going to prevent them from doing anything stupid but it greatly decreases tge risk that they will or the severity of what they do.


----------



## Pennywise (30/1/11)

My oldest (nearly 4) doesn't even want to try my beer  , he eats half the grain while I'm making it though :lol: 

The only opinion I have on the issue though is it's hard to have one. Saying that, I'd be happy to give my son a sittle sip of beer if he asked, but it would be just that and I like the idea of getting them to describe the drink, and get a sense of appreciation about it's flavour. It's kinda hard to judge how someone elses kid will take on that resposibility, something only really a parent of said kid can judge. It's just a pity that some parents shouldn't be


----------



## jasonharley (30/1/11)

I have got 3 young boys and I have gained three axioms for application from these discussions

1. Serving anymore than a sip or small serving of alcohol for children or young teenagers on a regular basis is harmless for their cognitive development

2. Education is the key - the best education is consistent honest explanation of all aspect of alcohol backed up by good example..... and then overlied by societal education

3. Socialisation for drinking comes from family, peer group and wider society. You can really only influence the first directly (family), you have help "steer" your children in the second (peer group) but as they get older the final decision is theirs. The third (wider society) is becoming increasing problematic as a monolithic societal culture is no longer present. Issues of multiculturalism, the reemergence of religion, the "ideas competition" between government education campaigns, traditional media, the new media, and the arts.... all result in a smorgasbord of ideas and behaviours .... some dangerous, some exciting, some irrelevant and some neo-conservative. The point is your influence on other people is limited and depends on a wider range of factors, some of which may turn out unpredictable.

The last point is instructive for me. I grew up in a conservative Christian family. The Church I went to forbade any drinking of alcohol..... despite alcohol being the focus of Jesus's first miracle. A visible indicator that you became a "christian" was whether you stopped drinking piss. That church culture was a peer group attempting to exert its influence. I move from that peer group to another peer group that was the complete opposite... it was called the Army.... and it was a deadset drinking culture. But overlaying all that was society, which back in the 70-80's, Australia was still a pro-drinking culture but that changed through the 90's onwards when I went to parties and some people drank coke. Honestly, it is hard to honestly pinpoint how I was influenced to drink alcohol. The interaction between individuals and their surrounding is complex and therefore parents, after trying all they can to nuture their children into the world, should not be given a hard time if their children do go off the rails. A bit of humility goes a long way. 

Thanks for the discussion..... it has been great

cheers
5 eyes


----------



## MarkBastard (30/1/11)

Tony said:


> +1
> 
> Oh this is exactly what i was going to post so i will save the time and agree!
> 
> ...



How much do you drink now though? Because if anyone on this forum doesn't "binge drink" according to the governments definition, why the hell do you even home brew?

Me personally, I had my 'dark days' too but I don't think they were alcohol related at all, just other personal circumstances.

I for example haven't drunk at all this year, but when I do drink I'm not going to have 2 shandies and pretend I'm "responsible". I like the taste of beer but lets be honest, the reason I acquired the taste was because I drank it to get drunk. I now sometimes drink for the taste reasons and to relax slightly from time to time, say on a week night, but I'll be damned if I'm going to a party and having anything less than 10 beers.


----------



## Tony (30/1/11)

I have 3 or 4 a night on a week night and a few more on a friday night/saturday. I dont know what the government guideline is but id say im well and truly a binger! I may "binge" but i dont drink them all in 15 min and i dont get really drunk. Usually one an hour and 90% of the time i would be fine to drive. 

And to me, Bingeing is drinking lots in one hit to get drunk, not enjoying 6 or 8 or 10 beers between lunch time and bed time!

And my dark days wernt a result of alcahol...... Alcahol was my escape and i used it in excess as such.

I must say.... its good to see some good beer and brew discussions on here of late with no fights 

Lovin it! its like the old days.


----------



## gone_fishing_ (30/1/11)

I allow my kids a sip every now and then.
I drink about 4-6 beers a night.
I have binged.
I suspect that alot of this "research" into the ill effects of alcohol is being driven by the muslim communities

GF


----------



## manticle (30/1/11)

Really?

Pushes for temperance, reduced alcohol intake etc have been around for a long time and most have bugger all to do with Islam. I'd question what influence the muslim communities you refer to have on skewing peer reviewed studies.

Don't have kids but I let my 15 year old nephew have a small glass of beer when he visits. I don't think a whole lot of harm will come his way from it.

As for bingeing - I drink far too much of my own product and far to much of other products (research purposes only) than is good for me. I'm OK with that though.


----------



## braufrau (30/1/11)

Hee hee ... this reminds me, the other day I gave SHWMBO (7) a sip of decaf coffee and i remembered the look of horror on my friends face when i had offered her daughter a cup when she said she wanted a drink. But this same friend lets her kids guzzle coke which has 5x the caffeine and is totally engineered. Not only coke but *diet* coke! 

Well i think I am just like those who want their kids to understand that alcohol should be treated with respect. Caffeine can make you completely batty and should also be treated with respect and I hope my daughter grows up knowing that both diet coke and alco-pops should never pass her lips.


----------



## braufrau (30/1/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> How much do you drink now though? Because if anyone on this forum doesn't "binge drink" according to the governments definition, why the hell do you even home brew?



Because even though HWMBO has 1 stubby a night (two if he thinks he can get it past me) a 6 pack of comparable beer is $16, as much as we spend on meat most weeks! So he's not having that!


----------



## Lecterfan (30/1/11)

manticle said:


> I'd question what influence the muslim communities you refer to have on skewing peer reviewed studies.



The influence (if there even is any) would be insignificant compared to the epidemiological need for data to curb type 2 diabetes in Australia. THAT is what is driving an enormous amount (not all) of research into alcohol. There is really no need for this disease to exist in bipedal mammals (no offence, that is not a judgment call, that is a fairly basic considered opinion based on a number of peer reviewed references).

I have no problems with children having a taste but I think there have been some very pertinent points raised by Waggastew earlier. 

I also agree that the Gov definitions of "binging" unnecassarily labels many people without taking into account a whole host of other factors.


Still, good discussion! Sorry to wander OT.


----------



## brettprevans (30/1/11)

anything more than 4 standard drinks a day is classified as binge drinking. 
Hello I drink 2 pints and in a binge drinking. It's fkn garbage.


----------



## gone_fishing_ (30/1/11)

Lecterfan said:


> data to curb type 2 diabetes in Australia. THAT is what is driving an enormous amount (not all) of research into alcohol. There is really no need for this disease to exist in bipedal mammals (no offence, that is not a judgment call, that is a fairly basic considered opinion based on a number of peer reviewed references).



I suspect that type 2 diabetes is being driven by consumption of PASTA and softdrinks.

As for influences, there are numerous high-profile researchers residing within Australia who are devout muslims. They will even quote literature that shows that PORK is bad for you. 

We all know that those who are funded, by the government, to do any research
rely heavily on producing "positive outcome" research and publications or the funding dries-up!! We also know that only about 10% of PRP are actually true.

Interesting that alcohol fuelled violence has "sky rocketted" in the past couple of years (B*llshit). What then is the cause of this sudden increase? The mainstream media?
Some individuals with loud but influential voices?

Off track again

GF


----------



## dcx3 (30/1/11)

Its O.K. to let your kids have a taste of the froth every now and again its all apart of growing up.
But i would be very cautious of giving them any more then that,recent studies from the U.K. have shown that early exposure to alc/drugs can "Hardwire" the brain towards addiction later on in life.
My girls (4) love the smell of beer and love to help me make it,(They do all the little safe jobs for me)They are a great little bottle washing brigade also.
They see beer as something fun we can make together,and for the most part i love their help.


----------



## manticle (30/1/11)

gone_fishing_ said:


> I suspect that type 2 diabetes is being driven by consumption of PASTA and softdrinks.
> 
> As for influences, there are numerous high-profile researchers residing within Australia who are devout muslims. They will even quote literature that shows that PORK is bad for you.
> 
> ...



Do you have any information to back any of these claims up?

eg. causes of diabetes (do Italians have a higher than average rate of diabetes 2?)

Numbers of high profile muslim researchers in alcohol and health research?

Percentage of peer reviewed papers that are factual (as in where does 10% come from)?

Pork probably is bad for you - most piggeries certainly aren't trying to produce the healthiest most natural product around. Any info on the health benefits of pork? Wild pig possibly has numerous health benefits like most game meats but the stuff we get sold in general?

I'll eat bacon, drink myself stupid and quite happily walk through the CBD without thinking it's any worse than it was 10-15 years ago but I'm curious as to these fairly generalised statements you are making and whether there's substance to them that you haven't yet disclosed.


----------



## Newbiebrewer (30/1/11)

I grew up on the same method of little sips (mind you it was xxxx). When my teenage years came around, I had no real "need" to get blitzed. I think the real problem is Australian drinking culture. In my experience, getting drunk is seen as something to do to have a good time and I think cheap megaswill doesn't help.


----------



## gone_fishing_ (30/1/11)

manticle said:


> Do you have any information to back any of these claims up?
> 
> eg. causes of diabetes (do Italians have a higher than average rate of diabetes 2?)
> 
> ...


----------



## yardy (30/1/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> *The common theme is the lack of empathy. Most people are happy for things they don't care about to be banned, as long as they can still do the things they do care about.
> *


quote of the day B) 

my parents, old man especially, were pretty easy going with how they raised us, beer and boozing wre a big part of daily life, it was nothing for us boys to be sharing a tallie in the beergarden of a bush pub at 12 whilst the old boy was having a few, can remember driving him home down the highway at about 14 or 15.
although not responsible behaviour it wasn't rare or out of the ordinary at all, I'm sure some here will agree, Schooey knows the area  

anyway, this upbringing was always going to get me into the shit, and that it did, lesson learned..

my kids, 12 and 14 are remimded of my mistakes with alcohol but also told of how responsible use of it is a good thing, they enjoy a glass of bucks fizz at xmas and always sample a small glass of my latest brew and are encouraged to give me feedback, always bad btw :lol: 


i'm of the same opinion as someone else who posted here about encouraging the kids to be honest if they want to try something at give it a go at home in safe surroundings.

Dave


----------



## Lecterfan (30/1/11)

gone_fishing_ said:


> I suspect that type 2 diabetes is being driven by consumption of PASTA and softdrinks.




Haha! Nice one  ... a well founded suspicion, especially in children....WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN? Is eating at LaPorchetta going to be classified a type of abuse in years to come?

Unfortunately the disease (which is "technically" speaking not far away from being an epidemic based on current projections) is pretty highly linked to everyone's favourite form of kilojoules!

Plus it is easy to tar research with the brush of suspicion (hows that for a confused metaphor???) as arguably (very arguably) almost all research is based on some Gov funding, OR funded by an interest group/stakeholder. The %10 figure is an interesting one...I hope it didn't come from a credible peer reviewed source haha! Hmmm...I see a paradox on the horizon...


Anyway, it's all fun and games. I have technically just crossed the line into binge drinking for the day so I can now safely be stamped as temporarily non-autonomous.

edit: and case anyone is quick tempered or unable to decipher the nuance this post is intended to be lighthearted! RDWHAHB


----------



## manticle (30/1/11)

> . Yes, there is quite a high incidence of type 2 diabetes in elderly italian individuals.



Interesting. I'm not questioning whether or not that is true but where is your information coming from? If health research is as questionable as you claim, what is believable?

I have no doubt that highly loaded sugary drinks and refined and fast foods are contributing to higher incidence of diabetes 2- I think you'd find health research will agree with that too.



> If you dont know of one in medical/health research then I can't help you there.



Not saying they don't exist - just questioning the assertion that the muslim community is driving the studies that result in showing alcohol has negative impacts on health. me knowing or not knowing one has no bearing on what you're suggesting.



> It is accepted that only ~10% of publications go on to realise benefit (actually its about 0.00001% but lets call it 10.



Your original statement:


> We also know that only about 10% of PRP are actually true


.

'Realise benefit' is a piece of jargon I'm not familiar with but I'm fairly certain it doesn't equate to 'is true'. Again, where does the 10% or 0.00001% or whatever) come from?

I'm not suggesting all peer reviewed studies are spot on or that funding etc won't have an influence on some outcomes but tha's a far cry from the corrolorary of what you claim - that 90% of ALL peer reviewed papers are false. Big claim. Needs back up.



> Not affiliated with the pork industry but I do confess to eating crackling.



And so do I. Still not convinced the muslims are trying to make me stop.



> You didn't mention mainstream media?
> 
> Afterall, nowadays the children are exposed to automatic pesticide releasers (Im sure youve seen them on TV, every 30 mins, less than a 5 sec squirt, surface sprays that last 3 months??)
> 
> ...



Well I don't have kids as specified earlier. I'm not sure what you mean by the mainstream media reference. If you are saying that your info comes from there and yet you are questioning the validity of 90% or peer reviewed papers then I'm a little confused.

If you mean mainstream media is reporting higher incidences of violence and you reckon it's bollocks well we are in agreement.

You've just made some very specific claims and it's not clear what reason you have for making them.


----------



## gone_fishing_ (30/1/11)

Lecterfan said:


> Haha! Nice one  ... a well founded suspicion, especially in children....WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN? Is eating at LaPorchetta going to be classified a type of abuse in years to come?
> 
> Probably, either whether you gave it to them or not  .
> 
> ...


----------



## warra48 (30/1/11)

manticle said:


> I have no doubt that highly loaded sugary drinks and refined and fast foods are contributing to higher incidence of diabetes 2- I think you'd find health research will agree with that too.



And there's the rub with a lot with modern diets. 

General consumption of sugar has sky rocketed over the last 20 to 30 years. It's not just in drinks, it's also in many processed foods and convenience meals, consumption of which has also sky rocketed. The bad part of sugar is the fructose component of sugar.

I've dropped 10 kg from my weight in the last 8 months by doing nothing more than limiting my sugar intake as much as I could where I recognise it as sugar. I drink the same volume of beer ( average 1 longneck a day) as before, eat the same food (a lot of it from my vege patch), but cut out crap such as biscuits, chocolate, sweets. My exercise is the same as before, working around the house and yard, and golf twice a week.

By the way, beer is not fattening, as the sugar in beer is primarily maltose, not fructose. We can metabolise and burn maltose, whereas fructose goes straight to fat.

If you want to know more, read the book "Sweet Poison". Google it if you need to.

Mrs warra did the same thing a couple of years ago when she got frightened by her probable genetic pre-disposition to diabetes II (her mother has it), and a not good blood sugar level. She's back to her weight she was when we were married in 1975, a slender 50 kg.


----------



## MarkBastard (30/1/11)

If we all followed the guidelines of the expert scientists and medical professionals we'd all be living to 100 hooked up to machines and dropping 20 pharmaceutical pills every day of our lives over the age of 80.

There is a fundamental error in the calculations these people use, and that error is the assumption that the ultimate goal of every human being is to live for as long as possible at ANY cost. It's the same old quantity/quality debate I suppose.

They talk about the 'cost' of alcohol, diabetes or whatever on society, and they're probably right but I bet they're not looking at the bigger picture. If everyone followed their guidelines and lived so much longer, I reckon the 'cost' of this aging population, in money terms and standard of living terms, would be massive.

It's like roads, if everyone followed road rules to a tee in terms of going the speed limit, but more importantly the gap they leave between themselves and the car in front of them when moving and when stopped at lights, I reckon it'd take a hell of a lot longer to get to your destination. The result would be more cars on the road at any given time, and this could have a compounding affect. I'm not convinced this would make roads safer.

Back to the topic, if I couldn't do the things I like doing that are apparently "bad" the last thing I'd want to do is live longer.


----------



## pbrosnan (30/1/11)

It's interesting to note that the liquor industry is something of a protected species in this country when it comes to health warnings a encouragement of so called responsible drinking. Contrasted with the tobacco industry it has suffered only a very light touch with regard to being forced to highlight the dangers of drinking to individuals and the community. It's possible to make the argument that tobacco has not safe minimum dosage and is thus nastier whereas a small amount of alcohol is relatively harmless. I think this argument ignores the fact that alcohol has an effect well beyond the individual. More should be made of the toll that excessive booze consumption has a families and strangers. Keeping alcohol under control and dealing with the consequences of the states of mind induced by overconsumption must be enormous. The current efforts by the industry don't seem to be having much impact. I don think that something needs to be done to counter the industry's promotion of irresponsible drinking.


----------



## gone_fishing_ (30/1/11)

manticle said:


> Interesting. I'm not questioning whether or not that is true but where is your information coming from? If health research is as questionable as you claim, what is believable?
> 
> I have no doubt that highly loaded sugary drinks and refined and fast foods are contributing to higher incidence of diabetes 2- I think you'd find health research will agree with that too.
> 
> ...




Not sure of your input on this topic. Do you have peer reviewed evidence to the contrary?

GF


----------



## leiothrix (30/1/11)

pbrosnan said:


> It's interesting to note that the liquor industry is something of a protected species in this country when it comes to health warnings a encouragement of so called responsible drinking. Contrasted with the tobacco industry it has suffered only a very light touch with regard to being forced to highlight the dangers of drinking to individuals and the community. It's possible to make the argument that tobacco has not safe minimum dosage and is thus nastier whereas a small amount of alcohol is relatively harmless. I think this argument ignores the fact that alcohol has an effect well beyond the individual. More should be made of the toll that excessive booze consumption has a families and strangers. Keeping alcohol under control and dealing with the consequences of the states of mind induced by overconsumption must be enormous. The current efforts by the industry don't seem to be having much impact. I don think that something needs to be done to counter the industry's promotion of irresponsible drinking.




I think that the big difference between smoking and drinking is that drinking actually has a point.

Smoking just makes you stink, and that's about it. It doesn't make you feel good, it makes you feel normal. The problem is people get confused. They get withdrawal symptoms & feel like shit, so have a smoke and feel good. The brain makes that as smoking == feeling good, when it is really just feeling as you should.

Drinking on the other hand does give a buzz (and not one born of hypoxia  ). How much of a buzz obviously depends on how much you have, but for most people having a drink today doesn't mean you must have a drink tomorrow or you'll feel like crap.


----------



## gone_fishing_ (30/1/11)

pbrosnan said:


> I don think that something needs to be done to counter the industry's promotion of irresponsible drinking.




Did you mean something needs to be done about "over the counter prescription" medicines?

How many freaks driving on "legal" and "healthy" (of course) over the counter drugs?

Im sure that on a homebrewing forum that I couldn't offend either the drug making industry or those who support Islam. But hey, thats just me  
GF


----------



## MarkBastard (30/1/11)

pbrosnan said:


> It's interesting to note that the liquor industry is something of a protected species in this country when it comes to health warnings a encouragement of so called responsible drinking. Contrasted with the tobacco industry it has suffered only a very light touch with regard to being forced to highlight the dangers of drinking to individuals and the community. It's possible to make the argument that tobacco has not safe minimum dosage and is thus nastier whereas a small amount of alcohol is relatively harmless. I think this argument ignores the fact that alcohol has an effect well beyond the individual. More should be made of the toll that excessive booze consumption has a families and strangers. Keeping alcohol under control and dealing with the consequences of the states of mind induced by overconsumption must be enormous. The current efforts by the industry don't seem to be having much impact. I don think that something needs to be done to counter the industry's promotion of irresponsible drinking.



Wowser


----------



## waggastew (30/1/11)

pbrosnan said:


> It's interesting to note that the liquor industry is something of a protected species in this country when it comes to health warnings a encouragement of so called responsible drinking. Contrasted with the tobacco industry it has suffered only a very light touch with regard to being forced to highlight the dangers of drinking to individuals and the community. It's possible to make the argument that tobacco has not safe minimum dosage and is thus nastier whereas a small amount of alcohol is relatively harmless. I think this argument ignores the fact that alcohol has an effect well beyond the individual. More should be made of the toll that excessive booze consumption has a families and strangers. Keeping alcohol under control and dealing with the consequences of the states of mind induced by overconsumption must be enormous. The current efforts by the industry don't seem to be having much impact. I don think that something needs to be done to counter the industry's promotion of irresponsible drinking.



I agree. There has to be a balance but currently in my opinion the balance is to far to the excess side. Australian's as a population do not drink responsibly in terms of their health, relationships, social interactions etc. This is particularly true for our young adults. Unfortunately the trend in the last twenty years has been for people to begin serious drinking at a much younger age (i.e. 13-15). I have no doubt we will look back at this as a real sea change in Aussie drink culture, unfortunately for the worse. 

Interestingly enough the fastest growing age group for alcohol related harm is the over 50's. We are seeing a whole bunch of empty nesters who have the funds and the time to drink whenever they want. If they are retired every day is the 'weekend'. At my local hospital over 60% of alcohol related admissions are in the over 50 age group (not the violent 19yo's!). Apparently a bottle of chardonnay, aging balance, and a small set of steps don't mix.

I also believe that Australian's have to loosen the bonds between drinking and many of our everyday activities. It is inconceivable for many people to go to a party and not have a few drinks. It is also impossible for many to think about celebrating an occasion (birthday/xmas/anniversary/end of the week) without a drink. As an example at my workplace if you do something above and beyond you get a bottle of wine. If its the end of the week you have a beer. If you have an after-hours meeting you have a beer. Much of the Friday conversations revolve around 'gee I could murder a beer' etc etc.

Everyone on here who has expressed their opinions has done more than many Australians in that they have reflected on their own drinking habits. I think that needs to be encouraged along with healthy discussions such as this. Its not about judging or imposing my standards on anyone else but people being informed and comfortable with their own patterns of drinking. 

On a personal note I am back to work tomorrow after some holidays. Will be back to drinking on Fri and Sat night only, and keeping it to four beers a night. I am comfortable with this level, it works for me. It also keeps the temptation of a keg setup under control!

Cheers guys!


----------



## waggz (30/1/11)

Hi People, first post long time lurker. My daughter, almost 4 has always liked beer, thinks its delicious, even my bitter stuff. I'd only ever give her the smallest sip, pretty much wet her lips with the head and maybe some liquid gold and i never really thought too much about it, cant be enougth alcohol to hurt anyone.

Last week end we ate at the local with my parents and she was calling her squash her beer, ' i want more beer" in front of friends and waitresses all night. I felt pretty uncomfortable.

Ive recently split with the missus, and started smoking again ( after 9 years ) and she has even started mimicking my smoking, so its got me worried about how i act around the kids, they're just so impressionable.

Just my 2c.


----------



## jyo (30/1/11)

gone_fishing_ said:


> I allow my kids a sip every now and then.
> I drink about 4-6 beers a night.
> I have binged.
> I suspect that alot of this "research" into the ill effects of alcohol is being driven by the muslim communities
> ...



How a thread on allowing/not allowing children to drink alcohol has been redirected towards a discussion on research conducted and driven by Muslim communities is confusing. I'm off to watch Today Tonight.


----------



## Oatlands Brewer (30/1/11)

First off...a bloody good thread discussion guys..

I grew up in a Italian household and also spent the years between the ages of 8 to 19 in the pub trade, mum and dad had 3 pubs in country WA.

Both my brother and I were brought up with no restriction to booze, and wine was had at pretty much all meals, We grew up with a resect for it and an education of it and no need to sneak behind mum and dads back even though we had a pretty much inexhaustable supply.

Ive never seen either my mum or dad drunk even at big events like weddings or funerals even though alc is consumed and most times at fair qty's, nor many of my uncles and aunts i think its a cultural thing more than anything.

Growing up in pubs (living on premises) you also get to see the ugly side of booze and the effects it has, i think this was also a re-enforcment of the correct use of alcohol.

Now with my own family, to this day we still have wine with 99% of meals and i would go through on average 6-8 beers a week of all varietys.

I have a nearly 3 year old boy and he is being bought up just the same way I was, the thing i freak out about....and i mean really freak out about is other drugs like heroin and anphetamines.
My best mate has a 17 year old son who has just gone down this terrible path and its heart breaking to watching him and wife tear themselves apart trying to save him.

I dont know but it just seems to be a much more serious and dangerous world for kids growing up these days, and everything seems to be done too more extremes these days


----------



## Lecterfan (30/1/11)

warra48 said:


> By the way, beer is not fattening, as the sugar in beer is primarily maltose, not fructose. We can metabolise and burn maltose, whereas fructose goes straight to fat.
> 
> If you want to know more, read the book "Sweet Poison". Google it if you need to.




That is a fascinating point, and one that I think people don't take into account. We don't metabolise alcohol kilojoules in the same way (i.e. we burn them, they don't turn to fat), but kilojoules that we ingest after the alcohol DOES turn to fat while we are still metabolising the alcohol. It is unfortunately easy to use this fact to develop a false economoy of KJ and alcohol consumption.

For those of us who are fructose malabsorpent we DON'T metabolise the fructose at all...it shoots out of us much the same way it went in hee hee (I laugh but it's not fun...losing 10 kgs from excessively sh*tting your insides out for 6 months isn't fun for anyone).

If I ingest 5000kj from grog (pretty easy to do), my body will continue to burn off those kj without metabolising them into fat cells...but everything I ingest after that initial 5000kj (and while I am utilising that 5000kj) will turn to fat.

Hey...I love the "beer/alcohol is good for you" news reports as much as the next guy, but lets not kid ourselves...


Again, just my 2c...what would I know? I am only as good as the empirical sources that my research and subsequent opinions are based on (which I admit are as flawed as anything else...and if we bring Nietzsche into we can even question the phenomena vs noumena debate!).


edit: to gone fishing - see the quote at the start of post #44 I am replying to...yes, it is type 2 I am discussing.


----------



## Hatchy (30/1/11)

jyo said:


> How a thread on allowing/not allowing children to drink alcohol has been redirected towards a discussion on research conducted and driven by Muslim communities is confusing. I'm off to watch Today Tonight.



I'll watch a current affair & we can report back on what we "learn".


----------



## DUANNE (30/1/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If we all followed the guidelines of the expert scientists and medical professionals we'd all be living to 100 hooked up to machines and dropping 20 pharmaceutical pills every day of our lives over the age of 80.
> 
> There is a fundamental error in the calculations these people use, and that error is the assumption that the ultimate goal of every human being is to live for as long as possible at ANY cost. It's the same old quantity/quality debate I suppose.
> 
> ...


t
ive got two points neither overly serious but, they want us to live to 100 so we can keep working and paying tax to fund the politicions ridiculouse pay rises all the time, and i dont know about qld but in melbourne without the revenue cameras the state would be broke within a week. governments on both sides at the moment are in it for themselves and not for us the poor basterds that pay there wage.


----------



## wakkatoo (30/1/11)

my kids help me brew beer, so I let them taste the beer. Small sip each followed by a bit of discussion about the flavours (both were right into Junior Masterchef, so they are full of big words!)
Ages are 6 and 9 and they've been doing this for at least 4 years. It is my hope that I am modelling an appreciation of the drink, rathen than the abuse of it.


----------



## Tanga (31/1/11)

gone_fishing_ said:


> Im sure that on a homebrewing forum that I couldn't offend either the drug making industry or those who support Islam. But hey, thats just me
> GF



Errr... Why not? I'll put my hand up as 'supporting Islam' if it means not making snap judgements about them based on some kind of conspiracy theory (with no evidence).

You do realise that Muslims are actually as much a part of Australian history as white people, yeah? Burke and Wills wouldn't have gotten anywhere without the Muslim camel handlers. They supplied materials and labour for much of the early infrastructure (railway, telegraph, etc) and traded. I am born and bred* South Australian - my great, etc, grandmother was the first white woman in this region, and their farm relied on the Muslim traders. I'm pretty sure they carried our liquor too =). They certainly carried it for Burke and wills.

Beer in the outback is and was pretty widespread - Muslims didn't stop us drinking when they could, why would they start now?

Sorry to rant guys, but really?

EDIT: *bred (not bread) - our balfours tradition is great, but not that great =D.


----------



## Sinfathisar (31/1/11)

waggastew said:


> I also believe that Australian's have to loosen the bonds between drinking and many of our everyday activities. It is inconceivable for many people to go to a party and not have a few drinks. It is also impossible for many to think about celebrating an occasion (birthday/xmas/anniversary/end of the week) without a drink. As an example at my workplace if you do something above and beyond you get a bottle of wine. If its the end of the week you have a beer. If you have an after-hours meeting you have a beer. Much of the Friday conversations revolve around 'gee I could murder a beer' etc etc.



For me this is one of the most important points raised. We actively socialise our kids into alcohol as a reward. Had a long/bad/whatever day at work? Come home and have a drink. Going out? Take a drink etc. This behaviour is also modelled on television and becomes insidious, an almost unseen socialising factor. It is like going to the movies now equates with popcorn and soft drink not just the film as entertainment, the treats are an accepted, almost necessary, part of the experience package.


----------



## drew9242 (31/1/11)

This thread has been a interesting read. My kids are younger then 2 so i'm not sure on what i will do when they get older. But i will teach them about the art of brewing. And when they grow up will give them a sip to taste what we have made. But other then that i will take it as it comes and decide when the time comes. All i hop is that my kids don't get stuck into those alcopops, nasty things they are.


----------



## Hatchy (1/2/11)

Sinfathisar said:


> For me this is one of the most important points raised. We actively socialise our kids into alcohol as a reward. Had a long/bad/whatever day at work? Come home and have a drink. Going out? Take a drink etc. This behaviour is also modelled on television and becomes insidious, an almost unseen socialising factor. It is like going to the movies now equates with popcorn and soft drink not just the film as entertainment, the treats are an accepted, almost necessary, part of the experience package.



I had a thought along these lines a year or 2 ago. I got home from soccer training & realised I was boozed after training, not even a game. It made me realise that everything I enjoy doing involves beer. I decided that night to go a couple of months without a drink (after the footy season finished). I lasted 13 days but held myself to 7 beers in 7 weeks. It made me realise that I don't need beer but also made me realise what I already knew. That I really like beer.

The beer after a bad day at work is a dangerous one. It can easily lead to a worse next day at work.


----------



## Dave70 (1/2/11)

In the sixteen years I've been with my wife, I could count on one hand the amount of times I've her even tipsy.
I hope my son grows up with his mothers indifferent attitude toward alcohol.
And I certainly wont be jump starting his interest by letting him sip dads beer.

People like to cite the French example 'Oh, let them drink from a young age, and take away the novelty' - bullshit, its a myth, the frogs are dropping dead from cirrhosis of the liver and heart disease per capita faster than Americans, and that's saying something.

Plenty of my family are comfortable letting their kids have a sip, and that's fine for them, but it's not for me.


----------



## petesbrew (1/2/11)

My kids enjoy helping me out measuring the grain, and stirring the mash tun (when it's safe to do so).
As far as the alcohol is concerned, sure they've dunked their hands in the froth and tasted that, but I'm not letting them drink any till they're 18.
Yep, I when they're teenagers they're going to try and steal a drink sometime or another. I'll have to sort out a lock for my fridge when that time comes. Give the crafty buggers a challenge.

Hatchy, SWMBO & I are starting to cut back our drinking. Getting into a bit of a habit, but after a few week long dry spells we're realising, we don't need it, we just like the flavour.


----------



## [email protected] (1/2/11)

Dave70 said:


> People like to cite the French example 'Oh, let them drink from a young age, and take away the novelty' - bullshit, its a myth, the frogs are dropping dead from cirrhosis of the liver and heart disease per capita faster than Americans, and that's saying something.



A bit OT

Id like to see the statistics for this claim? 
My understanding , from books, docos that i have watched is that the French have less incedence of things like obesity, 
heart disease, diabetes.

They have some of the best quality control measures on their food on the world, they pride themselves on this.
They tend to eat smaller portions of rich and less processed foods.
I acutally know of someone that was diagnosed with diabetes and now follows a strict French style diet, he is now better
than he has been in a long time.


----------



## DanRayner (1/2/11)

Dave70 said:


> People like to cite the French example 'Oh, let them drink from a young age, and take away the novelty' - bullshit, its a myth, the frogs are dropping dead from cirrhosis of the liver and heart disease per capita faster than Americans, and that's saying something.



I think you're half right.

It's true that the "French Paradox" is a myth but not because of the incidence and prevalence of heaet disease in France. Americans are around two and a half time more likely to die of heart disease than the French.

But the French are almost twice as likely to die of liver cirrhosis as Americans and they drink about 1.5 times the amount if alcohol (per capital) of Americans, and it seems that binge-drinking from a young age (12-14) due to their more relaxed alcohol laws might be a cause? (now I'm just theorising). That said, I think the legal age of alcohol in the US is stupid. Surely if you can vote, go to war or go to prison as an adult you should be allowed to drink too...


----------



## DanRayner (1/2/11)

Beer4U said:


> A bit OT
> 
> Id like to see the statistics for this claim?
> My understanding , from books, docos that i have watched is that the French have less incedence of things like obesity,
> ...



Even Wikipedia sees flaws in the French Paradox - though they are not about the difference between heart disease in the US and France. France seems to have similar rates of heart disease to neighbouring countries who do not have the same consumption of wine. Eat less and you probably won't be obese nor die of heart disease. Drink less and you probably won't die of liver cirrhosis. Pretty straight forward, eh?


----------



## seemax (1/2/11)

Dave70 said:


> In the sixteen years I've been with my wife, I could count on one hand the amount of times I've her even tipsy.
> I hope my son grows up with his mothers indifferent attitude toward alcohol.
> And I certainly wont be jump starting his interest by letting him sip dads beer.


My wife has never (i mean EVER) drunk alcohol, primarily due to family history of alcoholism and other addictions. Her father died young from liver and throat cancer. She still went out and partied and had plenty of fun and still to this day wonders why everyone around her feels the need to drink or binge. Sadly it's an Australian establishment.

Luckily for us our kids are both gluten free and can't even drink beer if they wanted to, but have never asked anyway. They see me drink beer occasionally during dinner on Fri/Sat nights, but never on weekends. They understand it's a grown up drink and that I drink it because I really enjoy the flavour, much the same as they do for diluted juice and ice cream. They help crack grain sometimes and I explain I make beer for fun, much like we make bread, cheese and icecream together.

If I had to make the choice, I would probably sway towards saying no until it's legal.


----------



## Mark Van Moolenbroek (1/2/11)

My two sons, one in his mid twenties and the other in his late twenties, were both bought up with a sip/taste of wine or beer from mum or dads glass. They both had their moments with underage binge drinking once or twice probably more from peer pressure than anything. Both of them these days have a very occasional social drink and once or twice a year the big binge. They have not developed the finer taste for beer or wine and seem more driven to drinking cheap spirits and cordials by peer and sporting group pressure on the rare occasion they do.

From my experience I do not think whether giving young kids a taste of alcohol at a young age or not will have much effect on how they take to it as they grow up, there are far greater influences out there in driving them to those feared poor behaviours. One thing I have always found with kids, if you hide it or say don't touch then be assured, its the best way to spark their interest in obtaining and trying without your consent. 

For me, I was bought up with the try and taste method with little concern from my European born father. It has taken me many years to develop a proper taste for it. I like to have one or two tallies a night and perhaps an additional one or two over the weekend. Probably a bit too much for my best health but my days of running marathons are happily over, and I am not wanting to change what I am drinking. I usually use a few beers as an incentive and reward after a couple of hours of work around the block, I love it ,specially now I have done a few AG brews. What could be more natural, growing a few vegies, keeping a few chooks, home cooking and home brewing???


----------



## bear09 (1/2/11)

Great thread.

I let my older son (3) take the occasional sip. I love how he says "oh thats good" when really I know he doesnt like it.

I love a beer but to control myself I dont buy it - I brew it. I only get to brew once every couple of months (at best) and this gives me 18L or 2 slabs exactly. Sometimes I do hit it a little hard but when I run out I have to wait for weeks and I can do it easily.

I consider myself to be a pretty normal bloke. When in my teens I wrote myself off more times then I could count and I loved it. Geez I had some fun times.

Then I got a little older, then I got a little smarter, then I had kids - now I will only ever get a little merry and then I pull up. I have found I can go all night no worries and I feel great the next day.

I loved getting pissed when I was a teenager. the excitement of it and the feeling of loosing yourself was awesome. Waking up and not knowing where you were or who you had been with - it was the funnest time ever. I know my boys will do the same and Im scared to think of it. Im going to try and mitigate it but I wont bother trying to stop it - they are going to do it.

Beer for me now is to enjoy and savor - not get blind on. Perhaps I can use this angle to help my sons realise that the pissed guy asleep in the corner will always be the last to get laid .

Great thread.


----------



## sydneyhappyhour (1/2/11)

I think I got my first taste of Tooheys New or Tooheys Draught as it was known at the time sitting on my pops lap and when I look back they are still some of the fondest memories of spending bonding time with my pop. Some of the earliest photos of me as a kid have me sitting in my Great grandfathers truck with a can of XXXX it was how I learnt how saw grown men interacting with each other and of course wanted to be part of it. My parents on the other hand were teetotalers and I grew up in a house devoid of alcohol, I grew up drank to excess, still do at times. 

One of my childhood friends family own a winery I still often work there to this day at vintage his family has a very strong French heritage and drink at every meal bar breakfast, but the way they eat and drink has alway been foreign to me. Their drinking is never rushed or their eating and I have never seen them drunk,I believe our culture psyche to be at fault mainly.

Alcohol like most things in life is a double edged knife, it has its good it has its bad upbringing,set and setting play a massive part.


----------

