# Hangin' Up The Pillowcase - Biab To 3v



## argon (25/8/10)

Soooo Im making the jump from full volume (double batch actually) BIAB to a 3V all stainless gravity setup this weekend. Ive done a fair bit of reading on the pros and cons of BIAB vs 3V and there really isnt a lot to be said.especially for a standard size single batch. Ive been making some pretty good beers (IMHO) over the last 12 months or so using the ol pillowcase but now comes the time to retire it.

My main reason is so I can do double batches of bigger beers say 1060 and up. And also to do it all with a lot less dicking about. 

For a BIAB double, I would heat up all my strike water, then draw off a certain amount into an esky, do my typical BIAB mash, mashout, then esky dunk sparge, dump the bag into a 19L stock pot to let it drain, pour off sparge liquor from esky back into kettle, pour in any dripped liquor from 19L into kettle, boil as usual. 

So essentially I was messing about with 3 different vessels AND a bag which dripped everywhere. Its a reasonably messy process that needs quite a bit of attention Ive taken a simple process and convoluted it to the extent Ive now considered jumping ship. Probably if I was doing single batch beers without dunk sparging I would keep the status quo.

For 3V Simplified explanation but the process will now go heat up the HLT, add strike water to MLT, dough in, mash, infusion mash out, double batch sparge, boil. All without transferring the grain multiple times and what seems to me a lot less hassle. 

I also plan to get the HLT run as an electric setup using a tempmate so I can prepare the water before I commence my brew day but thats not my reason for moving... just an added bonus.

Havent read too often anyone giving up BIAB but not to say on-one has Ive just got to the point where in my situation it makes sense to me. I have limited opportunities to brew, but have plenty of space and the ability to get all the gear together. Plus I like a bit of tinkering and nice shiny things 

So anyone else considering the move to become a real brewer? h34r: (prob get flamed for that but anyway throw it out there :lol: )


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## mje1980 (25/8/10)

I tried to do a double 1.060 porter in my 47 litre esky. It couldn't really handle it. I did what i do for all my double batches, but only ended up with 1.048. The grains on the bottom were super sweet, its like there was too much sugar, not enough water. Only tried it once, so not conclusive, but i think 5% is around my limit for double batches in my tun. Single batches, well, i just did a tripel and was 2 points down, so no dramas there. And double batches of 3.5% bitters work really well. 



Good luck, let us know how it goes

They're both different roads that lead to the same place.


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## mxd (25/8/10)

I swapped for the same reason, I wanted to brew 40 ltrs in one 4-5 hour stint, that way I had a chance of keeping the fridge full and some cubes ready.


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## Florian (25/8/10)

I changed over to 3v after only two BIABs. The beers turned out well, and I did not mind the process, just got the opportunity to get a 3v system up and running at reasonable cost. Although i now have problems with stuck sparges (or better: a blocked drain pipe) from time to time, I would not want to go back. Not having to lift and drain that bag is a great advantage to me, especially as I had no sky hook and the bag kept falling down where ever I tried to hang it onto.

I know there are great beers to be made with BIAB and I did this myself, and people even win prizes like trips to New Zealand with BIAB beers, but I just love a proper (well, half decent it is for me) mash tun, There is just something about opening and closing that ball valve whenever I want that really excites me :unsure: 

Florian


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## Synthetase (25/8/10)

I've also moved from BIAB to 3V. Mainly because of the stuffing around trying to get as much from the bag as possible. It's just so much easier to batch sparge.


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## argon (25/8/10)

Good to hear that others have ventured down the road of 3V away from BIAB with some success... doing more research today on the process and things seem pretty simple... especially for a double batch sparge. Not expecting great efficiency on the first brew... but not overly concerned... it'll work out in the long run.

It always seemed a hassle to make the beers and volumes i was chasing... so hopefully i can achieve this now with minimal fuss.

No more sticky mess on the garage floor, no more carrying 9kg of wet hot grain around, no more squeezing, no more dunk sparging... looking forward to it now.

Now to tinker around thinking about a march pump and a herms.


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## Fents (25/8/10)

argon said:


> 9kg of wet hot grain around,



unfortuantly you still have to empty a mash tun just like you do a bag. although you can let it cool down and bucket/shovel it out and i guess you dont have to lug round the 9kg's all at once.


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## under (25/8/10)

Im loving biab. But in the end I will also go to 3v system. but for the time being I say the beers im making are farking AAAAAAAAAA


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## argon (25/8/10)

> unfortuantly you still have to empty a mash tun just like you do a bag. although you can let it cool down and bucket/shovel it out and i guess you dont have to lug round the 9kg's all at once.



Yeah you're right.. knowing me i'll just grab the whole pot and then just hose it out... probably alot heavier doing it that way  But at least i won't have to put on the high temp gloves and have wort dripping on me and on the ground... and having the mrs complain about the amount of sticky mess in the garage. <_< 



under said:


> Im loving biab. But in the end I will also go to 3v system. but for the time being I say the beers im making are farking AAAAAAAAAA



yeah i'm loving the beers i'm making with BIAB too... no idea if the beer i'll make in the future will be better or worse. But i reckon i'll enjoy the making part a bit more.


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## Cortez The Killer (25/8/10)

I was actually thinking of regressing to BIAB - but I may just redesign my 3v system 

I think it's time for a new mash tun config and some HLT tweaks

Just as soon as these never ending reno's are over and I can move back to more important things... like making beer

Cheers


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## Acasta (25/8/10)

under said:


> Im loving biab. But in the end I will also go to 3v system. but for the time being I say the beers im making are farking AAAAAAAAAA


Yeah boiii!

Also, i was thinking of upgrading my kettle, and future proof for a 3V setup.


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## argon (30/8/10)

UPDATE got the first 3V Ag under the belt last night. Was a lot more pleasant than trying to do double batch BIAB. 

Only had one small glitch in the system my kettle pick up tube decided to break the olive to the compression fitting and I didnt have replacement hanging around. So decided to just take it off and let the kettle flow straight out the ball valve. No problem really just left a couple more litres of wort than usual in the kettle so effectively dropping my post boil efficiency. Hit my numbers fine enough through the mash and into the kettle. First 3V efficiency was not really high on the priority list.

Decided to a nice little Mild, inspired my LC Rogers... all Cascade, 24IBU, 30EBC, 1034 OG

Got some good advice regarding doughing in that helped demystify a few things my temps stayed nice and consistent over the 60min mash. Also, for the first one, decided to keep things really simple no mashout and a single batch sparge.

After recircing a couple of times probably the clearest wort Ive ever seen go into the kettle probably the clearest difference between BIAB and 3V post mash. So, happy man this morning 2 cubes of Mild ready to be pitched tonight. Cant wait for the next one.

Things to change for next time/future;
-	get a new pickup tube/compression fitting (mmm... beer belly shiny stuff :icon_drool2: )
-	perform a mash out
-	double batch sparge
-	Install element, tempmate, thermowell into HLT for automated start and ease of hitting temps

Anyhoo conclusion... easier brew day for me. (and same amount of time which was a surprise)


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## MeLoveBeer (30/8/10)

Nice work Argon, sounds like a pretty good first brew day on the new kit; not much you can do about equipment breaking, but sounds like you had the controllable parts of the brew day sorted (up until now I've always run the wort out without a pickup tube and never had a problem).

Mash out is simple... just use your kettle to boil water, then add until you hit your mash out temp.


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## argon (30/8/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> Nice work Argon, sounds like a pretty good first brew day on the new kit; not much you can do about equipment breaking, but sounds like you had the controllable parts of the brew day sorted (up until now I've always run the wort out without a pickup tube and never had a problem).
> 
> Mash out is simple... just use your kettle to boil water, then add until you hit your mash out temp.



Yeah thanks mate... went pretty well actually. Started it early for me... doughed in at 4.30pm final clean up was before 8pm. and that's with mowing the lawn, bathing the son, having dinner and watching some TV. Not bad day at all.

When i BIAB i always do a mashout by direct firing the tun... so'll do the same for the next time. Probably a bit of half and half, cause the next grain bill is 12.60kg in 50L tun. So add 10L or so of boiling water and adjust the heat with the burner up to mashout temp.

I'll definitely be getting a new pickup tube, cause there was a least 4 litres of clear wort in the kettle after the whirlpool. Had a nice cone of trub and hop debris too.


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## eric8 (30/8/10)

I have been thinking of going 3V as well. I just bought a new 2200w element for the kettle, decided to do this as Gregor had found some cheap ones and the last time I brewed I ran out of gas in 2 bottles.

My reason for changing is that I have a new job where I am learning a hell of a lot more about the brewing process and things are seeming a lot easier to understand, I also love making new things to go with the brewery as well, so an added advantage. 

I think I will keep all my BIAB stuff in case #V doesn't work or takes to long and I want to do a batch quickly. BIAB has been great for me over the past few years and it got me into AG, so I will always be thankful to those who came up with the ideas for it.


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## argon (30/8/10)

eric8 said:


> I have been thinking of going 3V as well. I just bought a new 2200w element for the kettle, decided to do this as Gregor had found some cheap ones and the last time I brewed I ran out of gas in 2 bottles.
> 
> My reason for changing is that I have a new job where I am learning a hell of a lot more about the brewing process and things are seeming a lot easier to understand, I also love making new things to go with the brewery as well, so an added advantage.
> 
> I think I will keep all my BIAB stuff in case #V doesn't work or takes to long and I want to do a batch quickly. BIAB has been great for me over the past few years and it got me into AG, so I will always be thankful to those who came up with the ideas for it.



Depends what youre motivations are for me I want to brew twice as much half as often. So single batches are not on the radar. Double batch BIAB was proving a little too cumbersome for me. The bigger the beers the harder it was becoming. Yes, I could have upped the size of my kettle to accommodate. But now Ive done a 3V I think the process is still inherently simple.


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## eric8 (30/8/10)

I have never tried a double in BIAB, seemed a bit too much to me and always thought the bag would break. I am with you on the double batches, seems a very good reason and certainly one that I will be taking advantage of.


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## Screwtop (30/8/10)

argon said:


> UPDATE got the first 3V Ag under the belt last night. Was a lot more pleasant than trying to do double batch BIAB.
> 
> Only had one small glitch in the system my kettle pick up tube decided to break the olive to the compression fitting and I didnt have replacement hanging around. So decided to just take it off and let the kettle flow straight out the ball valve. No problem really just left a couple more litres of wort than usual in the kettle so effectively dropping my post boil efficiency. Hit my numbers fine enough through the mash and into the kettle. First 3V efficiency was not really high on the priority list.
> 
> ...




Well done, onward and upward. You think your wort was clear, wait until it has had 10 min at MO temp. A suggestion......... include a float switch in the wiring of your HLT element. Can forget it then without burning your element, el cheapo from Jaycar to operate a relay with 30A contacts for the element.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## argon (30/8/10)

Screwtop said:


> Well done, onward and upward. You think your wort was clear, wait until it has had 10 min at MO temp. A suggestion......... include a float switch in the wiring of your HLT element. Can forget it then without burning your element, el cheapo from Jaycar to operate a relay with 30A contacts for the element.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy



Thanks again Screwy for the advice... this and the previous.

Was definitely tempted to add the MO step. But just thought i'd get the basics down pat first... just to experience any challenges. Nothing happened that i didn't expect so next time mash out is definitely on the cards.

Not a bad idea re the float switch... will have to put some thought into that... just still trying to find a good element at this stage. HLT will have all sorts hanging off it by the time i'm done with it. Sight tube is a must for me too. Nice and easy for my volumes.

Just gotta convince the mrs that another brew day is due this weekend for another bash at it.... especially considering one of my Helles cubes has swollen up <_< :icon_vomit:


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## MeLoveBeer (30/8/10)

Screwtop said:


> A suggestion......... include a float switch in the wiring of your HLT element. Can forget it then without burning your element, el cheapo from Jaycar to operate a relay with 30A contacts for the element.



Got a picture Screwy? Am currently building my new and improved electric HLT and would be very interested in seeing how you've implemented the float switch.


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## argon (30/8/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> Got a picture Screwy? Am currently building my new and improved electric HLT and would be very interested in seeing how you've implemented the float switch.



+1... have seen a couple of photos of your system here and there... don't remember seeing the float switch setup though.. very interested.

Will have a search for some of your photos in the meantime.


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## husky (30/8/10)

Got any pictures of the setup? Im currently designing a 3V system and would be interested in how you have it set up. I gather you are using 1 pump for the recirc?


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## MeLoveBeer (30/8/10)

husky said:


> Got any pictures of the setup? Im currently designing a 3V system and would be interested in how you have it set up. I gather you are using 1 pump for the recirc?



I can't speak for argon, but I just recirculate using a jug (pump isn't necessary in a simple gravity fed 3V system)


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## katzke (30/8/10)

I like BIAB and will defend it to the death. That said it is not for everyone and it is nice to read people write good things about BIAB while saying why they made the switch to 3 vessel brewing.

Dont toss the pillow case as you call it. It may come in handy for small test batches in your fancy system.


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## argon (30/8/10)

husky said:


> Got any pictures of the setup? Im currently designing a 3V system and would be interested in how you have it set up. I gather you are using 1 pump for the recirc?



pics of mine??? umm... it's pretty ghetto at the moment... will be trying to get the Father-in-Law to weld me up a Franko style brew stand, when he thinks he's coming up to help me weld up some gates... h34r: 

No pump as yet... what i meant by recirc was Vorlauf ie


> the process of clarifying the wort being drawn out of the mash tun. Often this is as simple as drawing 1-2L of wort at a time


 just to get rid of any grain bits that have made it through the falsy. Just did this a couple of times with plastic jug until i could see not too many grain bits. 

My setup at the moment is 3 pots, 2 no bolt/weld bunnings shelving systems, 1 rambo burner and a couple of silicon tubes. Alot of moving stuff around and lifting heavy pots back up and down. Won't be doing that for too long... but not much of a hassle in reality.


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## Screwtop (30/8/10)

argon said:


> +1... have seen a couple of photos of your system here and there... don't remember seeing the float switch setup though.. very interested.
> 
> Will have a search for some of your photos in the meantime.



Pretty rough, still haven't gotten around to building a control box.
90L MashMate controlled HLT, 50L MLT with 12L MashMate controlled HERMS HE, 80L Kettle with NASA Burner, March Pump. HLT element is an 1800W 1" BSP mounted in a 1" SS Tank socket welded into the side of the HLT connections are housed in a "J" box mounted on a SS plate on the outer end of the tank socket (shitty pic). 

Cheers,

Screwy







Wiring for the float switch:


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## argon (30/8/10)

Screwtop said:


> Pretty rough, still haven't gotten around to building a control box.
> 90L MashMate controlled HLT, 50L MLT with 12L MashMate controlled HERMS HE, 80L Kettle with NASA Burner, March Pump. HLT element is an 1800W 1" BSP mounted in a 1" SS Tank socket welded into the side of the HLT connections are housed in a "J" box mounted on a SS plate on the outer end of the tank socket (shitty pic).




Thanks Screwy... looks nice and neat and compact to me... will be looking at putting something very similar together myself.

How have you been finding the 1800w element? it's ok for bringing large volumes to boil? Was thinking of a 2200W at the smallest. I guess if it's just for mash out/sparge water it wouldn't be massive volumes.


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## Screwtop (30/8/10)

argon said:


> Thanks Screwy... looks nice and neat and compact to me... will be looking at putting something very similar together myself.
> 
> How have you been finding the 1800w element? it's ok for bringing large volumes to boil? Was thinking of a 2200W at the smallest. I guess if it's just for mash out/sparge water it wouldn't be massive volumes.


Plenty big enough. See lots using bigger elements but have never seen the need. For a double batch around 65L is heated to strike temp in around 2 hrs. HLT is filled with required volume of filtered brewing water the day before and the timer is set for early next morning. When I go to the brewery next morning water is ready. Mash strike water is drained to the MLT and the HLT control is then set to sparge temp. Only takes around 20 min for the remaining sparge water to reach temp. Plenty of time as the mash takes an hour or more.


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## argon (30/8/10)

Screwtop said:


> Plenty big enough. See lots using bigger elements but have never seen the need. For a double batch around 65L is heated to strike temp in around 2 hrs. HLT is filled with required volume of filtered brewing water the day before and the timer is set for early next morning. When I go to the brewery next morning water is ready. Mash strike water is drained to the MLT and the HLT control is then set to sparge temp. Only takes around 20 min for the remaining sparge water to reach temp. Plenty of time as the mash takes an hour or more.




Cool that's what i thought... gotta love the ability to program your start to the brew day. Too easy.


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## cdbrown (30/8/10)

argon said:


> UPDATE got the first 3V Ag under the belt last night. Was a lot more pleasant than trying to do double batch BIAB.
> 
> Got some good advice regarding doughing in that helped demystify a few things my temps stayed nice and consistent over the 60min mash. Also, for the first one, decided to keep things really simple no mashout and a single batch sparge.
> 
> After recircing a couple of times probably the clearest wort Ive ever seen go into the kettle probably the clearest difference between BIAB and 3V post mash. So, happy man this morning 2 cubes of Mild ready to be pitched tonight. Cant wait for the next one.




Congrats on the first brew, I also managed to do some brews on my new 3v rig on the weekend. Was great not to have to continuously tend to it. Wondering what good advice you had regarding doughing in as I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it right.

Did you have to top up the cubes with water at the end or add during the boil? Don't remember seeing what size the kettle volume was. I ran out of time due to starting late and didn't get around to topping up in the kettle (no way I could have done a full boil in the 50L keg) so the two cubes are a few L short.


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## argon (30/8/10)

cdbrown said:


> Congrats on the first brew, I also managed to do some brews on my new 3v rig on the weekend. Was great not to have to continuously tend to it. Wondering what good advice you had regarding doughing in as I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it right.
> 
> Did you have to top up the cubes with water at the end or add during the boil? Don't remember seeing what size the kettle volume was. I ran out of time due to starting late and didn't get around to topping up in the kettle (no way I could have done a full boil in the 50L keg) so the two cubes are a few L short.




Screwy if I may be so bold? heres an extract of a pm from Screwtop I got a few days ago, re discussing my foray into 3V brewing;



> Add strike water to tun, cover and wait for 5 min
> Add 1/3 grist give a few turns (don't stir) with your mash paddle.
> Add 1/3 grist and another few turn.
> Add last 1/3 grist and again a few turns. Resist stirring. Don't be too concerned with mash temp as the temp can vary in different spots and depths in the mash.
> ...



This was in reference to a different recipe that I havent done as yet but the principles remain. 

Essentially I added the grain and left it be for the duration of the mash. 

I do recall an earlier discussion re stirring and suspending grain flour through the grain bed. Potentially affecting efficiency when sparging IIRC this had more to do with fly-sparging, but happily corrected. As its the first time Ive done a proper sparge, dont take my ramblings and misunderstandings as gospel. Just a basic consciousness of what may be happening. But Ill let the experienced brewers come in with accurate reasoning here.

As for the cube top-ups I brew over gravity and use 17L cubes (old fresh wort kit cubes) then top-up with 4L of cooled boiled water into fermenter at pitching. I have my equipment setup for this in beersmith, so dont even have to think about it anymore. That way my pre boil volume is only 43L or so which is not too bad in a 50L kettle... has to be watched at the start but once Ive got a rolling boil really no threat of a boil-over.


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## WarmBeer (30/8/10)

argon said:


> > Add strike water to tun, cover and wait for 5 min
> > Add 1/3 grist give a few turns (don't stir) with your mash paddle.
> > Add 1/3 grist and another few turn.
> > Add last 1/3 grist and again a few turns. Resist stirring. Don't be too concerned with mash temp as the temp can vary in different spots and depths in the mash.
> > ...



What's the issue with stirring?

Fairly new to AG, but never heard this advice before. Seems to me stirring is pretty important in getting rid of dough balls?


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## cdbrown (30/8/10)

I've been dumping the grain into the tun and then transferring the hot water after, stirring a little once it's done. I've got a herms set up so if I notice the mash return is very low I'll move some of the grain a bit off the false bottom as the bed has compacted too much.


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## Screwtop (30/8/10)

argon said:


> Screwy if I may be so bold? heres an extract of a pm from Screwtop I got a few days ago, re discussing my foray into 3V brewing;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From practice I found this to be the case with both batch and continuous sparging, although others will have a different opinions.



WarmBeer said:


> What's the issue with stirring?
> 
> Fairly new to AG, but never heard this advice before. Seems to me stirring is pretty important in getting rid of dough balls?



When starting out I read this too, ever experienced dough balls ? After 130 batches I had my first, doing a single batch, dropped all the grist into the water at once, never done this previously. Stir all you like! All of my brewing processes are the result of practice and trialing new process, before settling on what produces the best result "on my equipment". I get higher efficiency by not stirring flour into suspension, if I do it settles over the grist like mud and the wort doesn't drain down through the grist but down around the sides reducing efficiency. I also drain at only .5L min for best efficiency.


Screwy


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## argon (30/8/10)

Just to add to what screwy says above. I usually calculate for 70% into kettle. But last night using this mashing and sparging proccess outlined by screwy I got 79% into kettle. Also no dough balls at dough in. So I think this method has worked out ok for me so far. Didn't notice any flour mud over the grain bed either.

:icon_cheers:


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## Florian (30/8/10)

Screwtop said:


> I get higher efficiency by not stirring flour into suspension, if I do it settles over the grist like mud and the wort doesn't drain down through the grist but down around the sides reducing efficiency. I also drain at only .5L min for best efficiency.
> 
> 
> Screwy



Great post! I kind of had a stuck sparge yesterday and constantly had to 'drill holes' into my grain bed to get the wort running. I thought it was the lack of rice hulls, but now reading your post remember that thick layer of mud on top of the grain bed. I usually always stir like crazy the whole time, when doughing in and especially when sparging, as I thought this would give better efficiency. I will try it without stirring next time and see how i go.
I also usually drain very slowly, but not so much as a choice but rather because of that mud layer.

So when batch sparging, would you stir up the bed again or just gently let the water flow on top?


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## husky (30/8/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> I can't speak for argon, but I just recirculate using a jug (pump isn't necessary in a simple gravity fed 3V system)




SO are you guys simply pouring the wort back on top of the grain bed or through some form of diffuser/spreader?


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## Goofinder (30/8/10)

husky said:


> SO are you guys simply pouring the wort back on top of the grain bed or through some form of diffuser/spreader?


I pour onto the back of my mash paddle (coopers kit spoon), to try not to disturb the grain too much. It seems to work ok.


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## argon (30/8/10)

husky said:


> SO are you guys simply pouring the wort back on top of the grain bed or through some form of diffuser/spreader?



Precisely... but next time i'll be dispersing onto a lid or something... Maybe piece of alfoil or something flat like that... don't know if it makes much of a difference though... again talking out my arse, but thought that was only relevant to fly sparging to minimise channeling. Batch sparging everything gets stirred up anyway... so recircing/vorlaufing straight back in wouldn't make much of a difference.


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## MeLoveBeer (30/8/10)

argon said:


> Batch sparging everything gets stirred up anyway... so recircing/vorlaufing straight back in wouldn't make much of a difference.



You should give your mash at least a little while to settle before lautering after each sparge water addition (this gives you the nice grain bed filter that provides nice clear wort). If you don't have sufficient grain bed depth, pouring your recirculated wort back in will cause channeling and impact your efficiency (not much though). I usually just grab a lift off something in the kitchen (normally one of the missus tupperware containers or something), float it upside down in the mash tun and pour the recirculated wort on to it (it distributes it beautifully).

Edit: spelling


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## argon (31/8/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> You should give your mash at least a little while to settle before lautering after each sparge water addition (this gives you the nice grain bed filter that provides nice clear wort). If you don't have sufficient grain bed depth, pouring your recirculated wort back in will cause channeling and impact your efficiency (not much though). I usually just grab a lift off something in the kitchen (normally one of the missus tupperware containers or something), float it upside down in the mash tun and pour the recirculated wort on to it (it distributes it beautifully).
> 
> Edit: spelling



Yeah thanks mate... will be doing this on the next one... 

you know how when you do something and you know it's probably not right but you don't stop anyway cause you're too lazy?... or is that just me?

Many things to learn on the new kit... all good fun though... more learning = more fun.
My OCD kicking in again. I MUST learn everything there is to know about a subject!!


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## MeLoveBeer (31/8/10)

argon said:


> Many things to learn on the new kit... all good fun though... more learning = more fun.
> My OCD kicking in again. I MUST learn everything there is to know about a subject!!



I've been the same mate; only started brewing on my own 3v system about 3-4 months ago and there are a lot of subtleties.


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## husky (31/8/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> You should give your mash at least a little while to settle before lautering after each sparge water addition (this gives you the nice grain bed filter that provides nice clear wort). If you don't have sufficient grain bed depth, pouring your recirculated wort back in will cause channeling and impact your efficiency (not much though). I usually just grab a lift off something in the kitchen (normally one of the missus tupperware containers or something), float it upside down in the mash tun and pour the recirculated wort on to it (it distributes it beautifully).
> 
> Edit: spelling




What sort of grain bed depth are we talking? I have read that 30mm is a minimum however to me that seems quite shallow. The reason I ask is when sorting out my mash tun size I want sufficient grain bed depth for a single batch but also want the pot big enough to do bigger grain bill batches as well. If I can determine a good grain bed depth I can work it out from there.


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## MeLoveBeer (31/8/10)

John Palmer recommends a minimum grain bed depth of 10cm, but preferably 20-40cm


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## husky (31/8/10)

that sounds more like it, cheers


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## manticle (31/8/10)

argon said:


> Precisely... but next time i'll be dispersing onto a lid or something... Maybe piece of alfoil or something flat like that... don't know if it makes much of a difference though... again talking out my arse, but thought that was only relevant to fly sparging to minimise channeling. Batch sparging everything gets stirred up anyway... so recircing/vorlaufing straight back in wouldn't make much of a difference.



Not quite - at least not for me. I stir when I add the sparge water, then allow to settle, then recirculate. If I'm patient, this means I only need to recirc a few litres. If I poured straight back in rather than gently onto my paddle or alfoil or both, I'd stir up the bed I'd waited to settle out, defeating the purpose and making recirc a bigger pain.

There's also the distant possibility of aerating your wort I guess. Probably a tiny possibility and doesn't even need to be considered but why go to all that trouble to gently drain the tun if you're going to splash all your vorlaufed wort about? It only adds an extra few minutes to the whole process so I tip gently.

Alfoil is good - I use it to add insulation on the top of the mash anyway.


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## argon (31/8/10)

manticle said:


> Not quite - at least not for me. I stir when I add the sparge water, then allow to settle, then recirculate. If I'm patient, this means I only need to recirc a few litres. If I poured straight back in rather than gently onto my paddle or alfoil or both, I'd stir up the bed I'd waited to settle out, defeating the purpose and making recirc a bigger pain.
> 
> There's also the distant possibility of aerating your wort I guess. Probably a tiny possibility and doesn't even need to be considered but why go to all that trouble to gently drain the tun if you're going to splash all your vorlaufed wort about? It only adds an extra few minutes to the whole process so I tip gently.
> 
> Alfoil is good - I use it to add insulation on the top of the mash anyway.



Thanks mate will be doing the voraluf with a sheet of alfoil or flat surface to protect the grain bed from now on and only stirring on adding batch sparge water, rinse and repeat.
:icon_cheers:


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## black_labb (2/9/10)

i'm still doing biab, but have changed a bit away from the usual 1 vessel. the element in my urn blew and i havent been able to find any replacements. 

I've just built a keggle (from a 100% legal keg of course). I'll be using the urn as a biab vessel then drain it into the keggle for boiling, and sparge with the bag staying in the urn. this means no need to remove the bag from the vessel and I can do larger batches (my urn was only 30L so wasnt able to do more than 20L batches). the main difference is the ability to sparge in the first vessel. 

I'm considering using the keggle as a still so the top cant be completely cut off, but if I abandon that I may go back to normal BIAB using the keggle.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (2/9/10)

black_labb said:


> i'm still doing biab, but have changed a bit away from the usual 1 vessel. the element in my urn blew and i havent been able to find any replacements.
> 
> I've just built a keggle (from a 100% legal keg of course). I'll be using the urn as a biab vessel then drain it into the keggle for boiling, and sparge with the bag staying in the urn. this means no need to remove the bag from the vessel and I can do larger batches (my urn was only 30L so wasnt able to do more than 20L batches). the main difference is the ability to sparge in the first vessel.
> 
> I'm considering using the keggle as a still so the top cant be completely cut off, but if I abandon that I may go back to normal BIAB using the keggle.




Sweet.

I'm still on the stove top, though courtesy of Big W special on 19L pots, I'll put the two pots on the stove, split the grain bill in half and mash and boil in 2 side by side lots. And with the bag only weighing half, it makes sparging (pasta strainer into pot) a helluva lot easier.

I'm weighing up a Mash Tun and a larger pot, but I can see much extra benefit for the cost. I would love to do double batches, but I might go closer to a massive system, which is too much $$.

Still the journey is fun! :drinks: 


Goomba


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## argon (2/9/10)

katzke said:


> I like BIAB and will defend it to the death. That said it is not for everyone and it is nice to read people write good things about BIAB while saying why they made the switch to 3 vessel brewing.
> 
> Dont toss the pillow case as you call it. It may come in handy for small test batches in your fancy system.




Didn't see this earlier... absolutely right.. i'll be keeping my bag for sure. May do the occasional batch here and there...

Might have a double brew day with a mate... he can do a BIAB and i can go the 3V route.

Much appreciative of BIAB... definitely made making the step to AG pretty easy.


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## argon (7/9/10)

Got my HLT setup over the weekend.

All weldless as I dont have mad welding skillz pretty good with a bow-staff though

Got myself a few toys on Friday from Craftbrewers;
	Weldless thermowell
	Weldless inch full port ss ballvalve, threaded nipple, ss barb.
	Weldless 2200w ss 300mm element.
Was considering the crown urn site guage to fit to the pot but probably hold out for a more robust setup of a couple of ss elbows and some polycarb tube. Can use the 1m ss ruler for now seems pretty simple.
The plan is to set the tempmate on the timer with the probe in the thermowell set to strike temp. Nice easy start to a brew day. 
Try and brew first thing Friday as I have the day off.

Ill post some photos of the setup on brew day got the bug to brew more now that Ive got a more solid setup.

Next move is to see if I have the capacity to go all electric, maybe with 2 x 2200w ss elements in the kettle turn one off once boiling to maintain rolling boil. Or if I cant install 1 element and bring to boil with burner, then maintain with element. Itd be good to remove the dependency on the gas bottle quieter too.


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## raven19 (7/9/10)

argon said:


> ...got the bug to brew more now that I've got a more solid setup.



That is terrible! :lol:  Good to hear the HLT is set. I went with a beerbelly bulkhead fitting and polycarb sightglass. All weldless. Works a treat.



argon said:


> Next move is to see if I have the capacity to go all electric...



If keen on elec, can I suggest an over the side immersion element - they work a treat and can be moved from boosting your HLT for example to help get the kettle up to temp. I have two of them now.

Also added benefit of being able to remove them at the end of the boil, and easier to whirlpool!


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## argon (7/9/10)

raven19 said:


> That is terrible! :lol:  Good to hear the HLT is set. I went with a beerbelly bulkhead fitting and polycarb sightglass. All weldless. Works a treat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah over the side immersion heaters sound the go... jut don't want to zap myself h34r: Seen a couple of good ones but like the idea of a permanent fixture though.

Interested to see that sightglass... was thinking of just an ss all thread, lock nut, silicon o-ring with an ss elbow on the outside top and bottom then put the polycarb tube in between... similar to Franko's setup

My pickup tube is still out of action... considering an ss beerbelly hop screen and pickup. I've had a stuck kettle tube before when stupidly letting whole hops go freeball. And not too keen on using the hop sock... dunno why, just not. Just more shiny stuff i guess.


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## Acasta (29/9/10)

How did you set up, your pickup tube/hop screen? Im also interested in something similar.
Thanks.


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## argon (29/9/10)

I've set it up with a stainless compression fitting as attached. I've found these the easiest way to creat a bulkhead through a stainless vessel got 3 of them - one on each vessel

HLT no pickup tube to ensure the water elvel doesn't go below the element
MT attached to a bent ss tube attached tp fasle bottom
Kettle attached via copper pick-up tube angled away from centre of pot

Only got copper pickup tube tube at the moment... noting too fancy ... gonna source some stainless tube to do it properly and not sure i'll bother with the hop screen... Next time i use flowers i'll employ the hop sock again, or my full size BIAB voile bag to let the buggers roam free.
:icon_cheers:


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## argon (6/10/10)

And here's my super dodgy rig... a welded single tier brewstand is on it's way though... soon as i get a bit of coin together.



I drain to kettle (far right) on the ground and lift it back up to the stand when full to start boil... i'll do my back one day.
This setup has done 4 double batches so far and works out ok. 

Used to use the smaller shelf system for BIAB. Did about 20+ batches and it stands up fine.


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