# Am I On Track?



## volcano (9/11/03)

I just put down a friend friendly (maybe) kit of Tooheys Draught with:

500gm Dextrose
500gm Maltodextrin
1kg LME
250gm honey
12g Goldings Hops (steeped for 20 mins)

The kit, dextrose, maltodextrine, honey and LME were all simmered together for about 10 mins and after the hops had been steeped, put into an ice slurry for about 15 minutes (in the pot).

The guy I made it with has a little bit of HB experience like myself, but not too much.
After we put it in the fermenter and pitched the yeast, we took the OG reading at 1090!

Is this high for the fermentables in this? I figure it should drop down to about 1015 - is this close? How do I judge what my FG will be? The original intention was to make a beer with a rather high alc%, but this looks like a 9 percenter or so?


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## big d (9/11/03)

my calcs put it at 10.05%.way high.havent done anything like your recipe so cant really comment other than to say mid year i had a high og reading and after some advice it was put down to the ingredients in the fermenter not mixing properly and sitting in the tap area where when poured into the hydrometer gave a rather high og reading.
as it turned out the pre mixed kit i bought was accidently mixed at a higher ratio than normal so gave an abv when finished of 8.5%.needless to say the hbs was apologetic but i was really happy.what a great beer.


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## volcano (9/11/03)

Well, I am positive that the ingredients were mixed properly on my part. In fact, this is the most careful I have been to ensure that I did everything as close as I could to what I have read here and so forth.

Maybe it did come a bit funny from the suppier (as I mentioned it was a kit from Woolies for a Tooheys Draught).

It is the most fermentables I've put into a brew since I've started and was expecting around the 1060-1070 tops, but 1090 - thats a surprise.

Would temperature play any part in it at all?

:blink:

(edit: spelling)


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## Batz (9/11/03)

I saw those Tooheys kits the other day , what are they like ?


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## nicko (9/11/03)

volcano said:


> Well, I am positive that the ingredients were mixed properly on my part. In fact, this is the most careful I have been to ensure that I did everything as close as I could to what I have read here and so forth.
> 
> Maybe it did come a bit funny from the suppier (as I mentioned it was a kit from Woolies for a Tooheys Draught).
> 
> ...


 if i get heaps good aeration in my wort i often get inaccurate readings due to all the shit floating around...i just let it settle out a bit before i take it.


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## big d (9/11/03)

ive checked a few books volcano and this may help.
a rough guide of alcohol content % from raw ingredients.

ingredient alcohol content % 1 kg in 22 litres

dried malt extract 1.9
malt extract syrup 1.6
dextrose 1.8
sugar 1.9
malt grain 1.3


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## volcano (10/11/03)

Batz said:


> I saw those Tooheys kits the other day , what are they like ?


Well, I can honestly say it is on of the most active brews I've put down.
It is bubling away like nobodys business!

Took another sample this morning and it smells beautiful. 
The gravity has dropped to 1044. I did aerate it with my brew hose so that might be it.
What do you reckon my OG would have really been? I took the first one at about 3.30pm yesterday and this one at 8.30am this morning. I'm guessing about the 1050 mark?

Oh, one thing I did is this:
I recall someone saying they aerate their beer with the garden hose, they just water the lawn for 1/2 hour to make sure theres no crap in it.
What I did was take a 2 meter length of garden hose with a snap lock connector, and I found a screw on adapter that screws onto my kitchen sink. I can sterilise everything, hook it up to the kitchen sink and then aerate from there.


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## Trev (10/11/03)

Volcano,

I just fed your figures into Beersmith - it's the new brewing calculator that I suppose is a competitor to Promash.

It thinks that you should have got about 1.050, assuming 23 litre brew. That stacks up with most of the other brews I've seen. Assuming about 75% attenuation, then you'll probably end up with a FG of about 1.010, maybe just a bit higher given the honey and maltodextrin.

As for your high SG reading, the only time I've seen that is when I forgot to give the brew a really good stir. The beer turned out OK though.


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## jayse (10/11/03)

yeap trev has got it. i calculate around 1.056

a simple calc is 

(lme amount in kg) x 308 / litres

(dme,honey or sugar in kg) x 375 / litres

for that brew

2.7 x 308 /23 =36

1.25 x 375 /23 =20

=56 (1.056)


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## mike (11/11/03)

Hi Big d


Given the caculations on alcohol % what would be the alcohol % of my beer...Ps I did not have a hydrometer at the time..

19 lts batch

1.7 kg morgans amber ale

1.5 kg liquid malt

Interested to know if there is an alcohol % difference with using liquid malt to say dextrose or some other dried sugar ?

Cheers


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## Trough Lolly (11/11/03)

I agree with Jayse and Trev,

My calcs have this brew (for 23 litres) at an SG of 1.061. That's based on an SG of 1Kg of LME at 80 degrees Brix, (1.320) and an SG for 1Kg of DME, Sugar etc at 1.360.

Volcano - How did you measure your SG? Did you take a sample from the tap and measure that? If so, you may have inadvertantly drawn down some of the unmixed malt sitting in the bottom of the fermenter into the test tube and thus obtained a false result.

To get an SG of 1.090 in 23Litres of wort, my calcs suggest you need to use 6.47Kg of LME or 5.75Kg of DME! :blink: 

Cheers,

TL


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## jayse (11/11/03)

yep what ever numbers you use you still don't get anywhere near 1.090

my numbers are just general. i don't know the extact ones.
but like trough lollys at LME 320 AND DME, sugar etc 360 you get close.

were did you get them numbers trough lolly?
i don't have the exact numbers for extracts.
just working from the info i have but yours are slightly different.


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## Trough Lolly (11/11/03)

Jayse,

I'll have to scrounge my notes for the data - those values are plugged into variables within a spreadsheet that I use to make my own malt, alcohol and volume calculations.

Will find their source for you and let you know.

Cheers,

TL


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## Trough Lolly (11/11/03)

Ok,

Degrees Brix is a measurement of the percent by weight of sucrose in solution at 60 degrees F. The higher the degrees Brix, the greater the content of sugars in the sample.

For example; 

1993 Handley Cellars Chardonnay = 23 Degrees Brix (which means there is 23% sugar in solution).
Natural Orange Juice = approx. 11 or 12 Degrees Brix

The term "Degrees Brix" is 150 years old, named after Dr Antoine Brix and is commonly used by winemakers. There are several other scales of measurement used in lieu of degrees Brix. For example, the Baume scale is also used in Europe - it was named in 1768 after it's creator Antoine Baume. An online conversion table between Brix and Baume is available here.

(Ok, enough of the history wankfest!!)  

Liquid Malt Extract is typically 80 Degrees Brix. There are 4 brewers degrees per one Degree Brix. This means that the SG of 1Kg of 80 Degrees Brix LME in 1 Litre of water is 320 brewers degrees or 1.320.

Dry Malt Extract has a higher sugar content again - it measures approximately 90 degrees Brix = 1.360 or 360 brewers degrees.

Sucrose yields an SG of 1.386, ie, 96.5 Degrees Brix.

Armed with this info, we can easily calculate the Original Gravity and amounts of malt required in the wort of a given volume.

In this case, let's see how much malt I need to make 23 Litres of beer from hell with an Original Gravity of 1.090... :blink: 

If I use LME, I know the weight of the malt = 320 brewers degrees (80 Degrees Brix)

I know the final volume of the wort to be fermented (this volume is the solution plus malt added, NOT the volume that you add malt too) = 23 Litres

The amount of malt required is therefore = OG/(SG of malt/Vol of Wort)

IE = (90/(320/23)) 

= (90/13.913) 

= 6.46877 Kg 

Or, if I used Dry Malt Extract at 90 Degrees Brix;

= (90/(360/23)) 

= (90/15.652) 

= 5.7500 Kg

So, I need 6.47Kg of LME or 5.75Kg of DME to produce a 23L wort with a starting gravity of 1.090 at 60 Degrees F (16C). 

With a bit of manipulation, you can use the above formula to tell you what the Original Gravity of the wort will be, based on a given volume and amount of malt added.

OG or SG of wort = (Weight of Extract x SG of Extract) / Volume of Wort.

So 6.47Kg of LME in 23 Litres results in:

OG = (6.47 x 320) / 23 = 90 Brewers Degrees (1.090)

Cheers,

TL


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## jayse (11/11/03)

also brix is roughly equal to plato.
ie 10% brix is 10 plato.


various places quote different numbers.
for lme i have 77 brix
and dme 93 brix 

that is why i was wondering where you actually got your numbers, ie SG 320 for lme. basically which is correct your 320 or my 308 for lme or inbetween somewhere.
not the maths i know all that stuff already.


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## volcano (11/11/03)

Great stuff TL. This is the info that us beginners need to understand half of what we are doing and reading.

Thanks heaps.


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## Trough Lolly (11/11/03)

jayse said:


> various places quote different numbers.
> for lme i have 77 brix
> and dme 93 brix
> 
> ...


 Sorry for the long reply Jayse - once I got stuck into checking my numbers, I got carried away a bit, didn't I!  

I have checked a number of websites and it seems that each author has their own interpretation of how many brix each solution is. So, whatever fills your pipe works, I suspect...

Perhaps Doc may know of an authoritative website with generally accepted SG's for common fermentables?? 

John Palmer's website has a list of yields, here and according to him, he reckons that the SG of 2 Row Pale Ale Malt is around 267 (32ppg), and Munich Malt is 250 (30ppg). I suspect that he is erring on the side of caution with his all grain brewing.

The values I use were very close to those mentioned on Grain and Grape and another aussie website, that I can't remember.

The most valuable data that I have are my own brewing notes that I started in 95 - and so far, my calcs are pretty close to the actual values that I get when I do my brews. So I find that reality agrees with the theory and that's good enough for me!  

Between the two of us, we're talking about a 3 Degrees Brix difference which is not really a major issue for non-commercial quantities of beer. That's about 25 degrees which means a difference of .001 in our respective SG's for a 25 litre batch - I'm not gonna lose any sleep over that!  

Cheers,

TL


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## jayse (11/11/03)

i do the same as you, palmers book explains all this in great detail.
i just thought there may be a extact number for the lme people get rather than the 1.034-1.037 palmers book says.

i still think the number for liquid extract is 80%. the same as base malt but you get 100% effiency. 80% is 1.037 and 307 HWE.
like you said no need to lose sleep over 2-3 points sg. 

for anyone unsure the reference points are sugar ie. it is 47ppg or 384 HWE. that is the maxium number.

all specs are giving as a % of that. ie base malt is around 80%. 37ppg or 307 HWE.

but for grain you have times it by your effiency also.


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## Trough Lolly (13/11/03)

Agreed - the big issue with AGB is efficiency and how good the extraction is.

Just a question on your figures, Jayse. I agree that LME / Base Malt is 80% and 100% efficient out of the tub, but how do you get 1.037 or 307 HWE? I thought that 1 Degree Brix is equal to 4 brewers degrees (or to be more exact, 1.0039 according to this chart I found...here?)

This is why I made 1Kg of LME in 1L of water equal to 320 Brewers Degrees, ie, 80 (Brix) x 4 (Brewers Degrees).

I know that John Palmer reckons LME is around 34 - 38ppg, so I can only assume that he has a different rate of converting ppg to SG. An 80% extract yielding 1.307 means that the multiplier is 3.8375 which is only 96% of 4.

Stuff this! I think I need another beer!!  

Cheers,

TL


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## jayse (13/11/03)

i think we have managed to freak out some of the newer brewers with this stuff. 

anyway i get 37 ppg or 308 hwe.
from timesing either 47ppg or 384 hwe by .8, which gives you 80%.
iam a little confussed by some of your numbers there. ppg is the sg of one pound in one gallon or hwe is the sg of 1 kg in one litre.
the mutiplier for ppg to hwe is 8.345.

your correct that a 1% brix equals around 1.0039. 

anyway i can only half enjoy my beers today after dental treatment has left half my face and tongue etc dead to the world.

also i think we should start a new brew maths thread for all this stuff.


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## Doc (13/11/03)

You can also grab my SG to Brix conversion chart here.

Beers,
Doc

PS: Get the second one (v2)


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## volcano (13/11/03)

:huh: 
Freaked out? Not me....

Nah, I know enough to be dangerous and all that stuff is pretty much beyond me at the moment.

I just transferred my malted Pilsener into the keg from the clearing cube an hour ago.
Had a little taste and it's looking much better than I thought.
I think the smell of the saaz hops makes a big difference..


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