# Infection Alert - Should I Chuck It?



## Renegade (10/6/09)

Moving this query from the Gelatine Thread because it's probably not worth getting OT over there. 

After about two weeks in primary, and about a week in secondary, some interesting patterns are appearing on the surface of my brew. I have added gelatine about four days ago, a teaspoon into about 100-150ml of 80 degree water. I havent been watching it closely, but noticed this before I went to work today when I popped the lid: 

View attachment 27964


Photo is taken with flash on, so its over-exagerated, but to the human eye, the threads on the surface drop into the water up to 2mm in places, and the whole surface is kind of oily (?) looking. It doesnt smell or taste off, but it's not looking too great. 

Have just moved a second fermenter full of wort thats been fermenting for three days to avoid cross-infection, hope it's not too late. 

Any ideas if this is an infection ? This will be my first WTF after many a succesful brew previously, so I wouldnt minid knowing the potential causes. "Best Practice" methods havent changed at all, so I'm stumped. 

So glad I didnt bottle this last night as I was intending to do.


----------



## Screwtop (10/6/09)

Renegade said:


> Moving this query from the Gelatine Thread because it's probably not worth getting OT over there.
> 
> After about two weeks in primary, and about a week in secondary, some interesting patterns are appearing on the surface of my brew. I have added gelatine about four days ago, a teaspoon into about 100-150ml of 80 degree water. I havent been watching it closely, but noticed this before I went to work today when I popped the lid:
> 
> ...



Looks like acetobacter, is it a film that clings to anything put into the wort?

Screwy


----------



## Renegade (10/6/09)

Screwtop said:


> Looks like acetobacter, is it a film that clings to anything put into the wort?
> 
> Screwy



Just checked. And sadly the answer is yes. Leaves a film to the test probe (a quickly sanitised sharpie texta)


----------



## Jye (10/6/09)

Screwtop said:


> Looks like acetobacter



+1 on the acetobacter. 

I get the same thing on beer I leave uncovered in the garage for a couple of days. It can become quite a creamy mat over the entire surface and will stink out the room its in.


----------



## Renegade (10/6/09)

So is it time for the drain then ? 

F&ing breaks my heart to do so, but I guess we all have our time in this hobby to lose a brew.


----------



## Ross (10/6/09)

Renegade,

Yes it is infected with acetobacter - some brewers have succesfully siphoned off the brew below the film without any apparent problems, but to avoid this happening again stop transferring to secondary. I see from your pic you have transferred to a similar vessel, so their really is no benefit in this practice at all. By transferring, you've removed the protective blanket of CO2 & left your wort exposed to the air & hence the problem you now have.

cheers Ross


----------



## QldKev (10/6/09)

I dare you to eat that top film of it.... :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: 

QldKev


----------



## petesbrew (10/6/09)

How does it taste?


----------



## QldKev (10/6/09)

petesbrew said:


> How does it taste?


Hey it's my dare  

acetobacter :icon_vomit: :icon_vomit: 

QldKev


----------



## eamonnfoley (10/6/09)

thanks for putting the pic up - it looks quite distinctive should I ever experience it.


----------



## chappo1970 (10/6/09)

Licking one of these should get you close...


----------



## Batz (10/6/09)

You need the burn the fermenter.

All schools in your area should be closed.

Everyone to wear a surgical mask immediately.

Wash your hands regularly, especially before eating.

Have another go at brewing that beer :lol: :lol: 


Batz


----------



## Renegade (10/6/09)

QldKev said:


> I dare you to eat that top film of it.... :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2:
> 
> QldKev



Well if it's a monetary dare.............. 




Ross said:


> Yes it is infected with acetobacter - some brewers have succesfully siphoned off the brew below the film without any apparent problems, but to avoid this happening again stop transferring to secondary. I see from your pic you have transferred to a similar vessel, so their really is no benefit in this practice at all. By transferring, you've removed the protective blanket of CO2 & left your wort exposed to the air & hence the problem you now have.
> 
> cheers Ross



Thanks Ross, and others. I have never experienced this before, and have always transferred to secondary. But, Im already leaning away from the practice, the more I read that leaving wort on the yeast cake is not detrimental (funny how some early stuff - possibly misinformation - sticks with you). For future brews, I think I'll just leave in primary for two weeks, gelatine a couple of days before bottling, then rack off straight to the priming bucket, then straight into the bottle. 

So where does this bacteria breed in the first place ? I recently taken to letting my brews ferment out (and sit in secondary) in the kitchen, whereas previously it was in a spare bedroom. 

My concern, without having a real understanding of biological stuff, is twofold - one is that the latest fermenting wort was sitting rght next to the infected brew, and secondly have I iintruduced a bacterial form into my house that I should address by scrubbing the place down with bleach (not something I want to do, honestly. House Cleaning is not something Im born into)

One things for sure, future brews will be back in the spare room


----------



## Adamt (10/6/09)

Acetobacter is aerobic... keep your sanitation up to scratch and eliminate oxygen from your beer (excluding aeration of course!) and you should not get acetobacter.

EDIT: And Chappo... you disappoint me! lol


----------



## QldKev (10/6/09)

Chappo said:


> Licking one of these should get you close...




OK time to confess, how do you know what that taste likes??? h34r: 

QldKev


----------



## Renegade (10/6/09)

Batz said:


> You need the burn the fermenter.
> 
> All schools in your area should be closed.
> 
> ...



Wow so many responses while I was writing my last one. 

Thanks Chappo, I'll take the pepsi challenge. Just let me get a bottle of JD first. It just so happens we have a spare cat (and I think she's infection free)

Batz, the state government has ran out of money so the schools will be closed regardless. This will just give them the excuse to do so (watch Today Tonight next week, it'l be 'One Man's Biological Warfare Has Created Beer Flu' and I'll be hung drawn & quartered at the next local church fete as an example to everyone else)

Yea, I'm taking this brew loss on the chin. It still sucks, I really was looking forward to it (a mid to late cascade driven pale ale).


----------



## Ross (10/6/09)

Leave a glass of beer open to the elements anywhere in your house for a week & you'll see the spoilage film form.

Follow your 1st paragraph proceedure & future brews will be fine in any room of the house.

Cheers Ross


----------



## Renegade (10/6/09)

Adamt said:


> Acetobacter is aerobic... keep your sanitation up to scratch and eliminate oxygen from your beer (excluding aeration of course!) and you should not get acetobacter.



Yep, back to serious. Adam, thanks, that sort of relfects what Ross said, and the first step is to forget about a secondary transfer. 

Ok, back to the piss taking lads. Chappo, you intrigue me.


----------



## Renegade (10/6/09)

Ross said:


> Leave a glass of beer open to the elements anywhere in your house for a week & you'll see the spoilage film form.
> 
> Follow your 1st paragraph proceedure & future brews will be fine in any room of the house.
> 
> Cheers Ross



Actually, I left an inch of beer in a bottle once, and it was filled 7/8 with water (without rinsing) and something grew on the surface over a week that got so big that it actually blocked the water from being poured out. When I finally got it out, that was oily & slimey too. Same bacteria maybe.


----------



## chappo1970 (10/6/09)

QldKev said:


> OK time to confess, how do you know what that taste likes??? h34r:
> 
> QldKev



Let's just say the next pandemic is "Cat Flu"... h34r:


----------



## Screwtop (10/6/09)

If you're going to leave beer on the yeast that long then start dropping the temp, drop slowly to around 2C after 2 weeks, bugs hate the cold as much as I do. As ross indicated the best protection for your beer is Co2, keep it in your fermenter, on the beer to protect it. Problem for newbs, they want to keep opening up the fermenter for testing or whatever. 

Screwy


----------



## clean brewer (10/6/09)

Fine form Chappo :lol: , reminds me of the crap being posted on Monday, had me in stiches... :beerbang:


----------



## NickB (10/6/09)

Chappo said:


> Let's just say the next pandemic is "Cat Flu"... h34r:




Or Dirty, Dirty Chappo Flu. Infectious as buggery, but nice eyebrows.........






h34r:





Cheers


----------



## Renegade (10/6/09)

Screwtop said:


> If you're going to leave beer on the yeast that long then start dropping the temp, drop slowly to around 2C after 2 weeks, bugs hate the cold as much as I do. As ross indicated the best protection for your beer is Co2, keep it in your fermenter, on the beer to protect it. Problem for newbs, they want to keep opening up the fermenter for testing or whatever.
> 
> Screwy



This was the confusing 'gravity wont drop' beer that I wrote about recently, so it has had an overextended stay in the buckets. Typically I would do one week primary, one week secondary, then rack for bulk prime to bottles (without issue). 

After so much assing about, its a shame to lose it. Ah well, its all part of the experience.


----------



## glaab (10/6/09)

interesting thread. sorry to butt in with a newbie question. my 45l of Coopers Heritage Lager is nearly finished primary ferment, after I do the diacetyl rest, can I just leave it to cold conditoin for a few weeks in the primary fermenter, on top of the yeast cake, then bottle or keg it? I wasn't sure why people rack into a cube anyway.
Thanks for any pointers. Cheers.


----------



## Jye (10/6/09)

Screwtop said:


> bugs hate the cold as much as I do.



A tip I picked up from TBN is infections will develop twice as fast with every 10C rise in temp. So dropping the temp to 0C will slow them by a factor of 4... a bit like Screwy


----------



## pokolbinguy (10/6/09)

Ross said:


> I see from your pic you have transferred to a similar vessel, so their really is no benefit in this practice at all. By transferring, you've removed the protective blanket of CO2 & left your wort exposed to the air & hence the problem you now have.



Well I have learnt something tonight.....I hope my last batch that I racked into a fermenter is ok.

Pok


----------



## NickB (10/6/09)

glaab - depends.

Ideally, rack into a keg and carbonate, then CC for as long as you can stand. (People rack into a cube for clearing and conditioning).

Otherwise, leaving beer on the primary cake for around 4 weeks should not be harmful. Longer might be. If you're wanting to rack to secondary, do as I do, and purge your secondary vessel with CO2 prior to transfer. Takes all the problems (ie: introducing excess oxygen) out of the equation.

Personally, I primary until the beer hits FG, then rack into a keg, carbonate, and condition for a few weeks (not often!) or as long as I can humanly resist pulling a pint....

Cheers


----------



## Ross (10/6/09)

glaab said:


> interesting thread. sorry to butt in with a newbie question. my 45l of Coopers Heritage Lager is nearly finished primary ferment, after I do the diacetyl rest, can I just leave it to cold conditoin for a few weeks in the primary fermenter, on top of the yeast cake, then bottle or keg it? I wasn't sure why people rack into a cube anyway.
> Thanks for any pointers. Cheers.




Yes - 2 main reasons for racking to a cube for conditioning is if you want the fermenter back for another brew, or can only fit a cube in your fridge for chilling. I chill all my beers in primary & then transfer direct to keg or bottle. The only time I'd transfer to a secondary vessel would be to bulk prime after clearing.

cheers Ross


----------



## Renegade (10/6/09)

So if you dont have the facility to chill (I dont have a spare fridge), are you suggesting that secondary is a waste of time ? 
To show my lack of expertise I suppose, I have only ever gone secondary because that's the way Ive always done it, and simply assumed that more yeast is dropping out. Pretty dumb to not have tested the simpler route, I will admit.


----------



## glaab (10/6/09)

Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated.
I couldn't find that info anywhere. I was thinking it would be best 
to leave it in the primary for 2-3 weeks then keg but now I'll rack it
straight into kegs. Handy to know that in future if my kegs are full 
I can just leave it a few weeks if I need to.

Cheers!


----------



## Ross (10/6/09)

Renegade said:


> So if you dont have the facility to chill (I dont have a spare fridge), are you suggesting that secondary is a waste of time ?




IMO YES - Some swear that it improves their beer, but i can see no reason why it would. Leaving your beer on the yeast for a couple of weeks will do more good than harm. Leave well alone & you'll have few problems.

cheers Ross


----------



## T.D. (10/6/09)

Acetobacter is a bacterial infection. It will be all through the wort. The film on top is nothing but an indicator. Racking the beer from underneath it won't fix a thing, the film will just reappear in the new vessel, and if you bottle the beer the film will appear in the necks of the bottles.

The thing about acetobacter is that it often takes a little bit of time for the adverse flavours to appear. I think this is why some people think they have fixed the problem by racking to a new vessel. You often get a couple of months before it starts taking hold, at which time you start getting vinegar-like flavours and a loss of body.

Sounds weird but as far as infections go its one of the "better" ones!


----------



## BennyBrewster (10/6/09)

It will make you fart like a demon if you drink it ! :excl:


----------



## hazard (10/6/09)

Ross said:


> Renegade,
> 
> Yes it is infected with acetobacter - some brewers have succesfully siphoned off the brew below the film without any apparent problems, but to avoid this happening again stop transferring to secondary. I see from your pic you have transferred to a similar vessel, so their really is no benefit in this practice at all. By transferring, you've removed the protective blanket of CO2 & left your wort exposed to the air & hence the problem you now have.
> 
> cheers Ross


Ross, probably need Bribie to explain this - I'm brewing with 1469 at the mo, and Bribie says to beat it twice a day - but based on this thread, risk of infection (acetobacter and others) is quite high doing this. I've had the lid off twice to beat the yeast back in, and a good thing too because it keeps climbing out the airlock, but am I going to get a swine flu in my beer? Never had an infection yet (touch wood) but only done 20 brews so far in my career, I guess one day I've got one coming? I always rack to secondary, but not sure if this is still the recommended way to go?

hazard


----------



## petesbrew (11/6/09)

Got a great one for you guys. I thought I'd save posting a new thread.

This is the extra 10Litres of my Village Idiot Medieval Amber which didn't fit in my primary fermenter. I oversparged and didn't really get enough evaporation, but whatever... I threw it in a cube and it's been sitting there for about 6-8 weeks in my garage.

Opened it tonight to throw a cheap kit on top, for shits n giggles, and I saw this. WHAT THE F##K IS THAT INFECTION?
It doesn't really smell different from any wort, but for the record, it's got Chamomile Tea, Honey, and American Oak chips went in the boil. I'd definitely say the oak and chamomile are the factors, plus the massive deadspace in the cube.


----------



## Cocko (11/6/09)

Did you use PVC hose h34r: 


Seriously tho, dude that doesn't look good!

Hope it works out.


----------



## mwd (11/6/09)

looks like mould fungus to me before it turns blue.


----------



## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

Cocko said:


> Seriously tho, dude that doesn't look good!


Au contraire - it looks pretty awesome if you ask me.  

Probably won't help much in the flavour department though.


----------



## Rodolphe01 (11/6/09)

looks like the bottom of my coffee cup at work... 

Just skim the chunks off and i'm sure it'll be ok :icon_vomit:


----------



## Screwtop (11/6/09)

Wonderfull blue beer to go with a little blue cheese :lol: seriously it's just mould (fungi, like mushrooms), they need organic material and moisture to grow. They can be green, grey, brown or black, and produce a musty smell. What does the beer taste like.

Can't believe you posted that pic, farking funny :lol:


----------



## petesbrew (11/6/09)

Oh Screwy, one look at it and I knew I HAD to post it!
I mean look at it! It's frikkin' awesome!

Actually it does look like my coffee cup when i leave dregs of tea in it over an RDO weekend.
I reckon I could coat it in perspex or something and sell it as jewellry.

But the strange thing is, I'm still considering throwing a kit yeast on it just because I can!


----------



## pdilley (11/6/09)

Rack the wort off below the mould line to a new fermenter and keep on truckin'.

A few Moulds can be toxic (mostly from the inhalation of their resulting spores) and they all generally will pop up spore producing mycelial structures as quick as possible, so transfer sooner than later before it becomes a cloud bed of little inhalation aggravation devices.

Most spores can survive heat santisation, and not all but most are killed off in pressure cooker/autoclave sterilisation. You get them most likely from spores stuck to the hulls of grains naturally in the wild.

Maybe you lucked out and got the few bushels with some mould on it harvested processed and bagged and delivered straight to your door 

That or your kitchen cleaning duty needs an inspection or is that introspection of the process? Or did you leave some blue cheese on the mouse trap behind the fridge last year and forgot about it? 


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Renegade (11/6/09)

I would be worried about airborne spores with such a vigourous growth. Maybe you should chuck some straight bleach into the cube to stop any nasties infecting your brew space. 

Come to think of it, maybe I should do the same with my wort before I tip it down the drain.

EDIT: someone already mentioned spores. But Brewer Pete, youre not seriously suggesting Petes Brew (confusing) consider salvaging this mere 10 litres ?! :icon_vomit:


----------



## pdilley (11/6/09)

Renegade said:


> I would be worried about airborne spores with such a vigourous growth. Maybe you should chuck some straight bleach into the cube to stop any nasties infecting your brew space.



nah, so long as he doesn't take a big snogging sniff of it and sneezes, a gentle drain to a new fermenter won't disturb the spore clumps and send them airborne. Love the picture though 

darker beers usually have a greater chance of moulds, more yummy goodness to munch on in them as well.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete

EDIT: Yeah I am. Most everyone in this country pitches out perfectly good beer!

I get mould all over my sauerkraut too at times. its a natural process and I'm not a mycophobic person with issues. I like mouldy cheeses and allsorts 

Black mould I would be worried about and pink mould but nothing gets me anxious from that picture. Unless it is Fusarium mould I'm not too worried but thats pink 

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## petesbrew (11/6/09)

CBA racking that to a new fermenter. I've already got a full batch of it brewed and "drinkable" (still pending judging notes from the Schwartz comp), so I'll tip it down the drain on the weekend.
Tastewise, I'd give it a go if the cube had a tap, but I just stuck the plug in it this time, and um, I'm a bit wary of a sample from the top!
ah just call me chicken...


----------



## Renegade (11/6/09)

Chicken !


----------



## pdilley (11/6/09)

I'm not one to say put down the fermenter and step away from beer! 

But maybe your next book for your brewing library could be one on Mycotoxins and Food Safety. Then you can alleviate all your fears (issues ) and conquer them with science!  

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Darren (11/6/09)

Never, ever chuck a beer. Some of my best beers have turned bad over time and some of the worst beers have also improved with time.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Renegade (12/6/09)

Hi Darren, 

With all respect, is that a serious coment? Back up to the pics in post #1, would you bottle (not keg) that one ? If people are still using wort that's top-surface infected, maybe I should ! Although I might go and buy PET's just in case.


----------



## kabooby (12/6/09)

You mentioned in your opening post that you mixed the gelatine with 80C water. When I put gelatine in I always use boiling water and make sure the jug and spoon have been sanitized. You may have picked something up in that process.

Kabooby :icon_cheers:


----------



## jbirbeck (12/6/09)

I agree with darren to an extent. Don't chuck a beer. I've had the infection shown in post one a number of times. I rack to another fermenter to leave the top layer behind and then bottle straight away the beer is great. I'va had other 'infections' that smelt like and tasted like they were taking over. quick clean up of the bottles, into the bottles they go (normally a combo of glass and PET to 'test' carbonation) and the beers have turned out fine. 

That being said - I have chcuked two batches - one was a pils which was for others to drink so I wasn't taking the risk there, and the other was a mistake all thr way through so not worth keeping (and the infection had gone further than I thought was savlvagable). no :icon_vomit: 

:icon_chickcheers:


----------



## marlow_coates (12/6/09)

If it's just wort, then could you attempt to scrape the shite of the top, and reboil it?

Add your kit at the end, top up and pitch onto a solid yeast cake so that nothing else has a chance to live. 
Also you could make it quite strong, like to 10%, so that the alcohol will be combating any nasties as well.

I see this as your war against infection Petesbrew, don't roll over and and give it all up like a prom queen after a couple champagnes. Get in there and make that f*#!ing beer work man!

:icon_cheers:


----------



## petesbrew (12/6/09)

I have bottled the odd infected batch. Most just haven't got better, and get tipped anyway.
Also thrown a couple down the drain straight from the fermenter... if you can't stomach the hydrometer sample will you be able to drink a longneck??? :icon_vomit: 


I'm prepared to chuck this one. I've already got a batch worth out of it... this was just the extra's. Plus I've already got other brews planned.


----------



## T.D. (12/6/09)

Renegade said:


> If people are still using wort that's top-surface infected, maybe I should ! Although I might go and buy PET's just in case.



I don't understand this line of thinking. Ross made a similar statement that you can rack the beer from under the scum on top and successfully avoid the infection. This is totally wrong - you are seeing evidence of the infection on top because that's where the oxygen is - its just an indicator - the bacteria will be mixed thoroughly through the entire volume of beer, no question about it. Racking will do nothing, the scum will just come back.

That said, I agree with Darren, don't chuck it, acetobacter is not a REALLY bad infection. Over a few months you will start getting some sharper flavours appearing in the beer, but for many people the batch would be polished off within a few months anyway. In initial stages (presumably unless you have a really bad case of it) this infection actually doesn't have a lot of effect on the flavour.


----------



## Ross (12/6/09)

T.D. said:


> I don't understand this line of thinking. Ross made a similar statement that you can rack the beer from under the scum on top and successfully avoid the infection. This is totally wrong - you are seeing evidence of the infection on top because that's where the oxygen is - its just an indicator - the bacteria will be mixed thoroughly through the entire volume of beer, no question about it. Racking will do nothing, the scum will just come back.
> 
> That said, I agree with Darren, don't chuck it, acetobacter is not a REALLY bad infection. Over a few months you will start getting some sharper flavours appearing in the beer, but for many people the batch would be polished off within a few months anyway. In initial stages (presumably unless you have a really bad case of it) this infection actually doesn't have a lot of effect on the flavour.




Please don't misquote T.D. 



> Ross - Yes it is infected with acetobacter - some brewers have succesfully siphoned off the brew below the film without any apparent problems



As above, i quoted it is infected, but maybe worth trying to rescue. You then after dismissing my advice go on to say you agree with Darren & not to chuck it B) 

cheers Ross


----------



## muckey (12/6/09)

I'm in the save camp too.

I cant bear the thought of chucking out a fermenter full of beer without at least trying to save it.
rrack it off if you can (leave a good portion at the top behind) and see if you can at least get a beer to drink in the short term and use it up before the infection takes over again. even if you only save some of it you're better off than dumping the whole fermenter

cheers from an absolute tight ar*e :icon_cheers:


----------



## Renegade (12/6/09)

Righto, Ill price a case of PET's on the weekend and if they are reasonably priced and give bottling a go. F&ked if Im putting this into glass though.


----------



## discoloop (12/6/09)

Interesting idea. I once had a beer that I found - after bottling - had a teenie bit of oily-looking stuff on the surface. Tasted okay so thought it had less to do with infection and more to do with food residue (brewpot gets used for food, too). But maybe it was a mild case of this? Makes me wonder...

RE saving beers: in my experience, good flavours fade over time, but any off flavours stick out like a sore thumb no matter what...go figure!


----------



## Steve (12/6/09)

Muckey said:


> I'm in the save camp too.



Me to. Ive had it a couple of times years ago. Made sure none got in the bulk priming vessel and they were fine. Also had small signs of it in a couple of bottles. Still fine.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## muckey (12/6/09)

discoloop said:


> RE saving beers: in my experience, good flavours fade over time, but any off flavours stick out like a sore thumb no matter what...go figure!




aint that the truth.

Mind you, if its drunk quick it should be OK. All he needs is a visit from butters and that will solve the problem, the bottles will be drained quick as h34r:


----------



## warrenlw63 (12/6/09)

Why not "dry hose" it with some braided hose? That should mask the infection. :icon_vomit: 

Warren -


----------



## T.D. (12/6/09)

Ross said:


> Please don't misquote T.D.
> 
> As above, i quoted it is infected, but maybe worth trying to rescue. You then after dismissing my advice go on to say you agree with Darren & not to chuck it B)
> 
> cheers Ross



I was referring to your comment that you know people who have successfully salvaged acetobacter-infected brews by racking the beer fron under the scum on the surface. Doing this will make no difference to how successful you are at salvaging the brew.





Ross said:


> some brewers have succesfully siphoned off the brew below the film without any apparent problems


----------



## T.D. (12/6/09)

Renegade said:


> Righto, Ill price a case of PET's on the weekend and if they are reasonably priced and give bottling a go. F&ked if Im putting this into glass though.



Just don't put it at the back of the cupboard thinking it will improve. The opposite will be the case. As soon as its carbed, drink it like there's no tomorrow! :beerbang:


----------



## T.D. (12/6/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Why not "dry hose" it with some braided hose? That should mask the infection. :icon_vomit:
> 
> Warren -



Would you cut the hose into little bits and go the "hose pellets" option, or the more romantic alternative of "whole hose"?


----------



## warrenlw63 (12/6/09)

T.D. said:


> Would you cut the hose into little bits and go the "hose pellets" option, or the more romantic alternative of "whole hose"?



Or maybe some iso-hose extract? I'm sure there's a retailer who has some. :super: 

Warren -


----------



## muckey (12/6/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Or maybe some iso-hose extract? I'm sure there's a retailer who has some. :super:
> 
> Warren -




why cant you just steep the hose and make some hose tea and pour in the fermenter instead of spending more money on iso hose

edit: or make another batch with a different infection and blend the 2 because they should cancel each other then h34r:


----------



## T.D. (12/6/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Or maybe some iso-hose extract? I'm sure there's a retailer who has some. :super:
> 
> Warren -



Probably pretty keen to get rid of the stuff too! :lol:


----------



## Renegade (12/6/09)

My wife's adamant we throw it out. Now I just have to work out a way to tell her that you guys might know more about this subject than her


----------



## T.D. (12/6/09)

What, she doesn't like the idea of beer with white scum growing on top??? :lol:


----------



## Renegade (12/6/09)

Yea, she's such a princess. :icon_cheers:


----------



## muckey (12/6/09)

quick trip to the home brew shop, rack the beer....

" no, it's not the off 1. I pitched a new brew."

and hope like heck she beleives you


----------



## Darren (12/6/09)

Take home answer, never look at the top of your brew. Taste it, if its ok then bottle. 

I did this with a barleywine which had maggots living in the high-krausen line. I didnt notice til time to clean the fermenter. Funnily enough it scored quite well in HB comps for two years in succession.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Renegade (12/6/09)

Darren said:


> Take home answer, never look at the top of your brew.



That's very Zen.


----------



## petesbrew (12/6/09)

I beg to differ


----------



## bum (12/6/09)

I'd risk the yeast infection.


----------



## pdilley (12/6/09)

T.D. said:


> I don't understand this line of thinking. Ross made a similar statement that you can rack the beer from under the scum on top and successfully avoid the infection. This is totally wrong - you are seeing evidence of the infection on top because that's where the oxygen is - its just an indicator - the bacteria will be mixed thoroughly through the entire volume of beer, no question about it. Racking will do nothing, the scum will just come back.



Make sure you say what picture you are referring to. Mould is not bacteria and grows a connected mycelial mat or network of filaments and produces spores. Unless you chop it up or aggressively stir the buggary out of it it will not be throughout the entire beer. A gentle racking will pull the liquid out from under it.

Mycelium is not heat tolerant so if its not a fermented product as mentioned before you can reboil the wort if you are worried as the heat will kill any mycelial cells.

Again if anyone reads a Mycotoxin and Food Safety book you will learn all the moulds (and bacteria, dead insects, mice and vermin, and bits of miscellaneous human body parts -- mistakes happen ) that are in all the breads, processed foods, and canned and fermented products, including commercial beers that you are buying and drinking or eating right now today. I hate to burst anyones bubble but its not a pristine world or pristine environment, these organisms outnumber us greatly and only a few are dangerous in any way.

Again I think you are talking about an Acetobacter picture posted earlier while everyone recently have been talking about a Mould infection. So wires are crossed.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## glaab (12/6/09)

iF you drink it now and get crook as a dog your gonna have to listed to wifey;- '' i told you to chuck that out you idiot!!", is it really worth risking that?


----------



## muckey (12/6/09)

glaab said:


> iF you drink it now and get crook as a dog your gonna have to listed to wifey;- '' i told you to chuck that out you idiot!!", is it really worth risking that?



all right. You win.


----------



## petesbrew (15/6/09)

Muckey said:


> all right. You win.


That's why I didn't taste mine. I poured it out yesterday, it smelt like beer, but it was gross poking all those rubbery mould chunks down the drain.


----------



## T.D. (15/6/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Make sure you say what picture you are referring to. Mould is not bacteria and grows a connected mycelial mat or network of filaments and produces spores. Unless you chop it up or aggressively stir the buggary out of it it will not be throughout the entire beer. A gentle racking will pull the liquid out from under it.
> 
> Mycelium is not heat tolerant so if its not a fermented product as mentioned before you can reboil the wort if you are worried as the heat will kill any mycelial cells.
> 
> ...



Yeah I was referring to the topic of this thread - ie acetobacter infection - which I think is what others were referring to re racking from under the scum layer.


----------



## Rodolphe01 (15/6/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Again if anyone reads a Mycotoxin and Food Safety book you will learn all the moulds (and bacteria, dead insects, mice and vermin, and bits of miscellaneous human body parts -- mistakes happen ) that are in all the breads, processed foods, and canned and fermented products, including commercial beers that you are buying and drinking or eating right now today. I hate to burst anyones bubble but its not a pristine world or pristine environment, these organisms outnumber us greatly and only a few are dangerous in any way.



Too true. See this and this for US defect action levels in food, it is American and different to what we have here... But it is pretty sensible in that it realises that the food we eat, despite what a lot of people would seem to think, actually comes from the ground and will always have some level of contamination. I must say though, some of the action levels are pretty high and have a pretty serious yuck factor!


----------



## Renegade (15/6/09)

Well whatever was being referrred to, Ive tipped my batch (the acetobacter infection) yesterday afternoon. Gave it some critical tastings, and there was a very pronounced cider/vinegar (cider vinegar!) flavour. No point at all putting this one into bottles (I wasnt brewing cider!)

A very genuine thanks to everyone who provided feedback and determined what the problem is. Let's hope my first infection will be the last one for a while.


----------



## T.D. (15/6/09)

Rudi 101 said:


> Too true. See this and this for US defect action levels in food, it is American and different to what we have here... But it is pretty sensible in that it realises that the food we eat, despite what a lot of people would seem to think, actually comes from the ground and will always have some level of contamination. I must say though, some of the action levels are pretty high and have a pretty serious yuck factor!



And in fact, without these contaminants we would probably be sicker than with them.


----------



## T.D. (15/6/09)

Renegade said:


> Well whatever was being referrred to, Ive tipped my batch (the acetobacter infection) yesterday afternoon. Gave it some critical tastings, and there was a very pronounced cider/vinegar (cider vinegar!) flavour. No point at all putting this one into bottles (I wasnt brewing cider!)
> 
> A very genuine thanks to everyone who provided feedback and determined what the problem is. Let's hope my first infection will be the last one for a while.



Sorry to hear it went pear-shaped. This bacteria is often transported by vinegar flies, so if you see any little flies around your brewery that may be the source. A good thorough sterilisation of the fermenter etc and making sure its a closed system (if little flies are floating around) should keep the problem away.

A few years back I had a couple of batches in a row that got infected with acetobacter. Around the same time I often found vinegar flies in my airlock water, so I think that's where the problem came from. Once I got rid of the flies I never had a problem again.


----------

