# Horrible Taste. Tannins?



## stowaway (10/9/08)

My First AG was a Failure. Ive never had a infected beer so it could either be this, or a extremely STRONG tannins taste. I had to tip this down the drain. It was almost a woody, disgusting taste.

My Second AG was a relative success. However it does have a little bit of a taste i dislike which im not sure if its just due to the malt i used or if possible there are extra tannins taste? I cant be 100% sure but i think it was almost a similar taste to my first AG just ALOT less.

I do the BIAB. And I have been doing the mash for 90mins. The water never goes over 70degrees. (i actaulyl do pretty well at keeping it at 67) except for the last 30mins i raise the temp to 75 slowly and then take out bag.

I have been squeezing the bag to get hte very last drop (in my most recent AG i havent done this to see if this is the solution)

Is there anything else i could do to possible stop extra tannins?

ps- i doubt this makes a dfiference but i always use filtered tap water for my mash


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## Darren (10/9/08)

Over hopping with the wrong varieties could be the culprit. What hop and how much are you using?

cheers

Darren


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## seemax (10/9/08)

Can you describe the flavour in more detail? Was it the initial flavour that was off or the aftertaste? Was it bitter / sour / etc? 

Also what was the recipe?

More info!


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## Tony (10/9/08)

It could be pH related.

Try adding a bit of calcium cloride or Calciun Sulphate to lower the mash pH. You want around the 5 to 5.5pH mark with around 5.3 being the optimal i think.

Tap water can have a pH of 7 to 8. Your water could be very high. I used to have Very high pH water in my last house and i couldne make a clear pale beer. It took 25 EBC worht of dark malts and large amounts of calcium salts to lower the Ph to where i got good break formation and clear beer.

My new house have much lower tap water pH and pale beers are bright clear with no salt additions at all.

I never noticed and woody taste though.

do you drain it carefully without splashing?

Other than that its posible its an infection. maybe in the outlet from the cooled wort to the fermenter? I have had that. It was in the ball valve. 

hope this helps a bit

cheers


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## kevo (10/9/08)

Here's a Gold Coast water report, hope that helps a bit....

View attachment GCW_water_quality_factsheet.pdf


Kev


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## stowaway (10/9/08)

kevo said:


> Here's a Gold Coast water report, hope that helps a bit....
> 
> View attachment 21082
> 
> ...




according to tthat water report gold coast PH levels are average 7.6 which is quiet high isnt it? (although doesnt filtering it make it PH netural?)

Ill have to go get a PH paper today... and work on reducing the PH level. gotta do a bit of research in that. i know salt does something

FIRST AG Recipe, Disgusting taste (could have been infected)
3500 gm pale ale 
1000 gm Vienna Malt
500gm Wheat Malt
25gram simcoe (13%) 70min boil
15gram simcoe 60min boil
15gm simcoe 10min boil

Second Recipe, Taste is okay, stil has a hint of bad flavour as a after taste.
3000gm vienna malt
1700gm pilsner malt
1150 munich II
220gm melanidn 
100gm caraaroma 
55 gm acidulated

25gram Saaz 80min
15 gram halleratuer 60min
15gram hellerature 10min


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## matti (10/9/08)

In BIAB, I understand that if you squeeze the bag its is possible to get some tannins through.
I would use 1/2kg more grains rather.
As above mention the* pH* could be the culprit.
but also the size of the crush. 
In Biab one would assume to have a fairly fine crush providing the bag is of very fine mesh. 

If it is the pH the acid malt would have helped as you are using mainly pale malts.
I adjust my brew water with house hold Citric acid for lager and use acidulate malt in the grain bill.

I am also curious what water:grain ratio one uses in BIAB?
If you use excessive water you won't get the conversion you are seeking and the pH will not drop quickly enough.

Happy dipping.


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## gibbocore (10/9/08)

dude, for your first recipe, i ran it through beersmith and got nearly 60 IBUs, thats gonna be fairly bitter, combined with any tannin astringincy from squeezing out the bag etc (BIAB noob right here) is gonna provide some pretty sharp/harsh flavours.


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## kram (10/9/08)

It's probably that dirty Simcoe hop... jokes.

You're on the right track with the PH papers. I now use citric acid to adjust my mash and sparge water (Brisbane filtered same average PH as GCW). I get alot less harshness now then I did then at the beginning. I'd suggest just making sure your process is down correct first and the temps are accurate before playing with the multitude of other options.


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## katzke (10/9/08)

Will just give a general reply and not give answers to every thing that was brought up.

First if it is like sucking a tea bag then it is probably tannins and caused by the water. More specifically alkalinity or high PH. Every all grain brewer should test the mash PH and make sure it is correct. If you can get a water analysis report that lists the minerals important for brewing then even better. There are several excel spreadsheets that can be used to adjust the water to beer style if you know what is in your water. The brewing software also has tools for adjusting water.

Biab works well and will not cause problems by its self. Squeezing the bag is fine and will not cause tannin extraction nor will the fine grind. High PH is what extracts tannins. With a full volume mash as used in Biab there is more acid needed from the malt to reduce the PH to a normal mash level. Light colored malts do not have enough to do the job. Traditional All Grain brewers may be getting away with not adjusting there water but I suggest they would make better beer if they did.

The conversion argument does not work for one simple reason. If conversion was a problem then Biab brewers would not have to raise the mash temp to decrease fermentability of the wort.

And from what little I know about filtered water it can strip some salts from the water and change the temporary PH. I did 1 small test (with a brita) and the PH was lower in filtered water but went back up after setting.

It is important to not just blindly adjust water with salts and acid. Different styles require different minerals to taste correct for the style. Best to use a water analysis and then calculate the adjustments by hand or with any of the water calculators available. Also instead of acid you may only need to add distilled water to what you have and adjust with salts.

Water is hard to understand. I do not pretend to be an expert. Just going by what I have picked up trying to fix my same problem. First Biab dumped as undrinkable because of water alkalinity. The different minerals important to brewing do different things. Some work with hops, some with malt, and some with yeast. Dumping in salts blindly will effect all parts of the brewing process.


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## Back Yard Brewer (10/9/08)

stowaway said:


> My First AG was a Failure. Ive never had a infected beer so it could either be this, or a extremely STRONG tannins taste. I had to tip this down the drain. It was almost a woody, disgusting taste.
> 
> My Second AG was a relative success. However it does have a little bit of a taste i dislike which im not sure if its just due to the malt i used or if possible there are extra tannins taste? I cant be 100% sure but i think it was almost a similar taste to my first AG just ALOT less.
> 
> ...




What did the wort taste like before you put the yeast in?? Next, how long or how active was your yeast starter before pitching?? IMHO if the wort tasted fine from the start before inoculation then I may put it down to fermentation issues. I have had issue with beer gone bad before and at the end of the day all the advice I received confused the shit out of me. Worked out that that I had issues with yeast not starting to ferment quick enough. First AG I made was in January this year, lost the first two. Since then I have made another 12 and have not lost another.

BYB

BYB


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## stowaway (10/9/08)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> What did the wort taste like before you put the yeast in?? Next, how long or how active was your yeast starter before pitching?? IMHO if the wort tasted fine from the start before inoculation then I may put it down to fermentation issues. I have had issue with beer gone bad before and at the end of the day all the advice I received confused the shit out of me. Worked out that that I had issues with yeast not starting to ferment quick enough. First AG I made was in January this year, lost the first two. Since then I have made another 12 and have not lost another.
> 
> BYB
> 
> BYB



So how did you solve this problem? did you make starters?


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## Darren (10/9/08)

Tannins spannins,

You could not have extracted enough tannin from that grain bill to taste even if you mashed at pH 9 and boiled the bejeezus out of the grain.

I would suggest something else like wild yeast infection or over-hopped (most likely if you are new to the flavour contributions of adding your own hops)

cheers

Darren


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## Back Yard Brewer (10/9/08)

stowaway said:


> So how did you solve this problem? did you make starters?




I was that pissed off with my second that I actually sent a couple samples at my expense to two forum members. I think Ross was one. The consensus was "infection" Since that time I have used only wyeast and made a healthy active 1ltr starter everytime and hay presto problem solved. Another AG brewer here in the Barossa experienced that same thing as I had and now also does what I have stated, and bang presto his problem is solved. Work in the wine industry here and work with yeast nearly everyday and have learnt that the little buggers can be quite fickle. Hope this is some info you can maybe use. Bloody expensive exercise to lose beer all the time.

BYB


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## stowaway (10/9/08)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> I was that pissed off with my second that I actually sent a couple samples at my expense to two forum members. I think Ross was one. The consensus was "infection" Since that time I have used only wyeast and made a healthy active 1ltr starter everytime and hay presto problem solved. Another AG brewer here in the Barossa experienced that same thing as I had and now also does what I have stated, and bang presto his problem is solved. Work in the wine industry here and work with yeast nearly everyday and have learnt that the little buggers can be quite fickle. Hope this is some info you can maybe use. Bloody expensive exercise to lose beer all the time.
> 
> BYB



Well the beer ive got at the moment, is okay.. But it does have a slight taste similar to the first 1. i have 2 more ag brews fermenting now. if they continue to taste bad ill take one down to ross and get an expert opinion....
i wonder if he gets sick of tasting disgusting brews?


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## dicko (10/9/08)

Hi Stowaway,

Stale hops can give a shocking taste to a beer.
Are your hops fresh and packed and stored correctly??

Cheers


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## stowaway (10/9/08)

dicko said:


> Hi Stowaway,
> 
> Stale hops can give a shocking taste to a beer.
> Are your hops fresh and packed and stored correctly??
> ...




My hops are stored in the freezer in a tupperware container.


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## katzke (10/9/08)

Darren said:


> Tannins spannins,
> 
> You could not have extracted enough tannin from that grain bill to taste even if you mashed at pH 9 and boiled the bejeezus out of the grain.
> 
> ...



You sure? I have a batch that I can offer as an example if you want to pay shipping from the states.

Did 3 and they all have water issues but because of the grain bill only the first was undrinkable. Had a very good fermentation and the other 2 did as well. The last 2 have temp issues and that may help to mask the tannin taste.

Time will tell when I repeat the first brew with corrected water. It is not only the PH that is an issue but the residual alkalinity. If the grain can not buffer the alkalinity then problems will result.


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## drsmurto (10/9/08)

My calcs (making a lot of assumptions - why do you have a 75 and 60 min addition?) are

For a 20L batch, 70% efficiency, OG 1.055, IBU 74
For a 25L batch, 70% efficiency, OG 1.044, IBU 64

Can you confirm some of these numbers for us please?

Now for my opinions, particularly in relation to the chemistry as that is my area.

I refuse to believe that advising a new AG brewer to adjust water chemistry is a good idea. There are maybe a handful of people on this site that would actually understand the fundamental chemistry that goes on in the brewing process (and i am not one of them). I do, however, have knowledge of the chemistry of water and how varying salts influence the pH etc. And yet, i havent once adjusted the water i use in brewing. Its the last thing i will be doing once i have 'perfected' every other area. Water quailyt is important and getting a report on the water you are using in your brewing is a good idea but unless you are using faecal infested rainwater or tap water going thru 150 year old pipes i find it hard to beleive that the majority of brewers need worry about it. The odd addition of gypsum etc to enhance hop flavour etc is ok but that is still in the realm of the experienced brewer IMO who has read far and wide and understands why he (or she) is doing it.

From my calcs, assuming my assumptions arent too far off the mark i think the culprit stands out like the proverbial. That many IBUs in a relatively small beer is what you are tasting. 

The key to brewing is balance IMO. You have a very unbalanced beer which will taste incredibly bitter which you have confused with tannins.


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## gibbocore (10/9/08)

Yeah thats what i said, i love simcoe but it has a very specific and at those levels overpowring piney bitterness.


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## trevc (10/9/08)

I seem to recall you were chilling in the kettle. Was that for the first batch? Perhaps it was infected from the kettle or ball valve, etc the next day when you transferred. I'm outside brewing now... I would suggest bringing over a few tallies


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## katzke (10/9/08)

DrSmurto said:


> The key to brewing is balance IMO. You have a very unbalanced beer which will taste incredibly bitter which you have confused with tannins.



Well I got lost in the conversion and the fact I do not like IPA's. It does look like it would be a typical American IPA. That is with out running the recipe through a calculation.

I guess the logical thing to ask is if the poster has ever had an extremely hopped IPA before and if they liked it. This could be a converted extract recipe for all we know or a big mistake.

So what is it Stowaway?

Then just because we do not understand all about water does not say we can not make adjustments based on sound recommendations of target water. The other option is to tell home brewers to buy ingredients and start to brew. Test the PH of the mash and if it is over some value say 5.8, or under say 5.0, then dump the mash and the resulting brew. That still does not say the beer will be right to style as the minerals may be out of line.

I do not think any home brewer can truly say they understand all about malt and yeast yet we tell people to experiment with both. No home brewer can even begin to understand the complexities of the flavor contribution of yeast and fermentation temperature with all the available strains and then add the complexities of malt selection. So many combinations with so little time.

Yet I suggest using recommended water profiles for different styles and adjusting ones own known water to match those profiles and you say that is not recommended for new brewers. What is the difference? If you give a recipe that says to use an amount of hops but my water is such that the hop bitterness and flavor will be different then what you give then what good is the recipe? That is not even going into what water can do to malt taste or yeast health. The old breweries brewed beer that tasted good. They did not brew like modern brewers do and brew every style of beer they can sell. If the water was no good for brewing stouts then they brewed something else, if it was no good for brewing pale beer then the brewed dark beers. They did not understand water chemistry either. They just knew enough to brew good beer that people liked.

So what will it be? Tell new brewers they can only brew a few beer styles that work with there water or tell them how to adjust the water to brew any style they want?


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## Darren (10/9/08)

As Dr. Smurto said "Tell them not to worry about the water". There are other far more important variables in brewing than water ion content.

For example, sanitation, yeast health, fermentation temperatures and recipe formulation.

As I said before. Tannin schmannin. Maybe a problem in a 10-15 IBU beer. Not in 50+ beers

cheers

Darren


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## KHB (10/9/08)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> I was that pissed off with my second that I actually sent a couple samples at my expense to two forum members. I think Ross was one. The consensus was "infection" Since that time I have used only wyeast and made a healthy active 1ltr starter everytime and hay presto problem solved. Another AG brewer here in the Barossa experienced that same thing as I had and now also does what I have stated, and bang presto his problem is solved. Work in the wine industry here and work with yeast nearly everyday and have learnt that the little buggers can be quite fickle. Hope this is some info you can maybe use. Bloody expensive exercise to lose beer all the time.
> 
> BYB




Im the other brewer he talks about and if you have what he thinks i also buila a healthy 1 ltr starter now and i will never use dried again
KHB


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## Darren (10/9/08)

KHB said:


> Im the other brewer he talks about and if you have what he thinks i also buila a healthy 1 ltr starter now and i will never use dried again
> KHB




KHB,

Off topic but, how did you come to the idea of not using dried yeast again??

cheers

darren


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## KHB (10/9/08)

Darren said:


> KHB,
> 
> Off topic but, how did you come to the idea of not using dried yeast again??
> 
> ...




Just personal choice both times i have had lag time for fermentation 18-24hrs i have got what me and BYB call the infection, i have pitched it straight on and also rehydrated it. So its just my decision im sure others use it and do not have a problem

KHB


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## Darren (10/9/08)

KHB said:


> Just personal choice both times i have had lag time for fermentation 18-24hrs i have got what me and BYB call the infection, i have pitched it straight on and also rehydrated it. So its just my decision im sure others use it and do not have a problem
> 
> KHB




Ah I see. If your wort is becoming infected by a 24 hour lag-time it simply means that there is a problem with your pre-ferment sanitation. If this is the case it is going to come back and bite you. Liquid yeast starter is not a long-term remedy to that problem.

cheers

Darren


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## KHB (10/9/08)

I have now done 10 AG after the first two and have not had a problem with using liquid starters, my pre-ferment process has no issues at all, im a chef and that makes me very thorough

KHB


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## Darren (10/9/08)

Hey KHB,

I am a microbiologist and know you are more likely to get an infection from a starter than a dry yeast pitch.

Maybe you too can taste the SAF-flavour.

cheers

darren


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## Jazzafish (10/9/08)

DrSmurto said:


> My calcs (making a lot of assumptions - why do you have a 75 and 60 min addition?) are
> 
> For a 20L batch, 70% efficiency, OG 1.055, IBU 74
> For a 25L batch, 70% efficiency, OG 1.044, IBU 64
> ...




I agree here! Everyone is quick to say infection, or some other exotic flaw... *but I think the recipe is the issue.* The only common error I see is lots of bitterness.

I'd look at your Bittering Unit to Gravity Unit (BU:GU) Ratio. Both recipes have a ratio over 1.5, with most of it coming from 60+min additions. This is very bitter. Most commercial beers are under 0.5! If you want a hoppy beer, add the hops late... from the last 10 mins.

If I were you, I'd simplify the next beer. Make a simple summer ale: 

85% Pilsner malt 
15% Wheat malt

Aim for an original gravity of 1.046

23 IBU's of a clean bittering hop at 60mins (BU:GU ~ 0.5)
1 gram per litre of a nice aroma hop at the end of boil

Yeast = US05 

If you don't like the look at the recipe guide above, don't brew it. But I do suggest you try to brew a beer without alot of hops and see if you get a better result.


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## drsmurto (11/9/08)

If Stowaway could confirm some of the numbers for us we could end this thread quick and easy.

Glad to see someone agrees with my thoughts that water chemistry shouldnt be inflicted on new brewers.

Not surprised to see it was a fellow scientist. B) 

I have one 75 IBU beer but it had an OG of 1.072 (IIPA) and young its out of whack, over time things should balance out.

I cant imagine drinking a beer with the specs i calculated.


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## stowaway (11/9/08)

DrSmurto said:


> If Stowaway could confirm some of the numbers for us we could end this thread quick and easy.
> 
> Glad to see someone agrees with my thoughts that water chemistry shouldnt be inflicted on new brewers.
> 
> ...



sorry ill confirm everything when i get home. I dont have my brew book with me


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## Stuster (11/9/08)

stowaway said:


> sorry ill confirm everything when i get home. I dont have my brew book with me



Before you do that, have you drunk many (any) really highly hopped beers?


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## dicko (11/9/08)

stowaway said:


> My hops are stored in the freezer in a tupperware container.



IMO Tupperware provides only a low level of vacuum seal for hops. (talking from experience).
If you can smell hops when you sniff near them in the fridge then storage is poor.
A beer with stale hops is a terrible drink and it will become undrinkable.
As with most everyone else with these replies I am suggesting only one area that may cause a newb problems.
I have not looked back with hop storage since I have been buying my supply from retailers that store and pack them properly and to compliment this I have bought a vacuum sealer for this purpose.

Cheers


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## stowaway (11/9/08)

i have tasted a really hoppy beer. and it wasnt like this

this was a extremely strong (disgusting) smell. and a bad afte rtaste. Organisc, possible woody tasting.

hard to describe.


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## trevc (11/9/08)

Sounds like an infection... Even a way over-hopped beer would still smell hoppy/grassy, not the nastiness you're describing


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## Jazzafish (12/9/08)

stowaway said:


> i have tasted a really hoppy beer. and it wasnt like this
> 
> this was a extremely strong (disgusting) smell. and a bad afte rtaste. Organisc, possible woody tasting.
> 
> hard to describe.



But most really hopped beers are highly hopped late in the boil. Generally speaking, there aren't many good beers with large high alpha additions boiled for over an hour. Especially at low gravity.

The strong disgusting smell does hint on an infection though... What has happened with carbonation? Infections tend to overcarbonate the beer. Can you take a PH reading? 

I still don't rule out the hops being the blame to the flavour. Home brewers are generally on top of sanitation, but are often convinced that any issue is an infection. Not always the case.


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## reviled (12/9/08)

I hope its not infection directly related to no chilling in the kettle :huh: Are these the same beers that you said tasted okay out of the fermenter which taste bad now?

In regards to all the water treatment and what not, ive tasted my first 3 AG beers recently which were done without water chemistry and all no chilled in a cube, and done BIAB, and then all pitched with dried yeast, and they all taste absolutely fantastic!!! 

The beer sounds pretty hoppy, but dont see how they could give off a woody taste? Maybe you accidentally put some smoked malt in there?


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## stowaway (12/9/08)

reviled said:


> I hope its not infection directly related to no chilling in the kettle :huh: Are these the same beers that you said tasted okay out of the fermenter which taste bad now?
> 
> In regards to all the water treatment and what not, ive tasted my first 3 AG beers recently which were done without water chemistry and all no chilled in a cube, and done BIAB, and then all pitched with dried yeast, and they all taste absolutely fantastic!!!
> 
> The beer sounds pretty hoppy, but dont see how they could give off a woody taste? Maybe you accidentally put some smoked malt in there?



I did say they tasted okay out of the tube..  Boy was i wrong? i guess im not all that experienced. my first beer was a full on failure. but i didnt notice the taste in the tube.. my second ag is okay... how ever my third one i think i can rekonise that same taste i tasted in the first one from the tube.


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## trevc (12/9/08)

Did you remember to sacrifice a virgin to the beer gods for the third batch? That could be it. I forgot to do that once and had chill haze 

I'm *very* curious what this mystery taste is that you're describing. Is it "bad" even in the third batch, already?

Don't get discouraged. Regardless of what the issue is, it's likely still easy to remedy.


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## reviled (12/9/08)

stowaway said:


> I did say they tasted okay out of the tube..  Boy was i wrong? i guess im not all that experienced. my first beer was a full on failure. but i didnt notice the taste in the tube.. my second ag is okay... how ever my third one i think i can rekonise that same taste i tasted in the first one from the tube.



Shit, im freaking out now  I wont do a no chill in the kettle till I have tasted the two batches I did in bottles, ill let you know how they turned out as well so you can rule that out as an option??


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## trevc (12/9/08)

reviled: No need to freak out... I've done 5 AG's now, all no-chill, and the last three were good enough that they're all gone. Not only is our new Double Choc Stout tasty, but it's definitely one of the better beers I've tasted overall (out of any). 

BIAB done properly shouldn't make any difference either. It all makes great beer in the end. 

Grab one of the earliest bottles, chill it down and taste it... if you're paranoid


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## reviled (12/9/08)

trevc said:


> reviled: No need to freak out... I've done 5 AG's now, all no-chill, and the last three were good enough that they're all gone. Not only is our new Double Choc Stout tasty, but it's definitely one of the better beers I've tasted overall (out of any).
> 
> BIAB done properly shouldn't make any difference either. It all makes great beer in the end.
> 
> Grab one of the earliest bottles, chill it down and taste it... if you're paranoid



I no chilled in a cube for my first 5 brews, theyve come out perfectly... My last two (which are still in the fermenters) were no chilled in the kettle with a half a roll of glad wrap on the lid and then sprayed the shit out of it with Iodophor...

In saying all that, I had the biggest krausen ive ever seen on one of them, about 6-8 litres high  I thought it was just the yeast having a good time, but now it gets me thinking...


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## stowaway (12/9/08)

trevc said:


> Did you remember to sacrifice a virgin to the beer gods for the third batch? That could be it. I forgot to do that once and had chill haze
> 
> I'm *very* curious what this mystery taste is that you're describing. Is it "bad" even in the third batch, already?
> 
> Don't get discouraged. Regardless of what the issue is, it's likely still easy to remedy.



im not discouraged. although i am pissedoff. Im just going to keep trying til i get it right.. ive already bought bulk grain and a mill so im committed.

if this 3rd one has the mystry taste i would love you to try some. im quiet sure its infection tho. im cleaning up my method ALOT this satruday


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## stowaway (12/9/08)

reviled said:


> I no chilled in a cube for my first 5 brews, theyve come out perfectly... My last two (which are still in the fermenters) were no chilled in the kettle with a half a roll of glad wrap on the lid and then sprayed the shit out of it with Iodophor...
> 
> In saying all that, I had the biggest krausen ive ever seen on one of them, about 6-8 litres high  I thought it was just the yeast having a good time, but now it gets me thinking...




I wouldnt be worried reviled.. in another topic i made someone (Forget who) said he and alot of guys he knows on this board all no chill in the Kettle. 

but let me know how they come out.


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## reviled (12/9/08)

stowaway said:


> im not discouraged. although i am pissedoff. Im just going to keep trying til i get it right.. ive already bought bulk grain and a mill so im committed.
> 
> if this 3rd one has the mystry taste i would love you to try some. im quiet sure its infection tho. im cleaning up my method ALOT this satruday



What are you using as a cleaner/sanitiser?

The last time I had really bad beer I was using Sodium Met  

I have since moved to Napisan as a cleaner, and Iodophor as a no rinse sanitiser.. Havent had any problems so far...

Edit : I normally dont bother with drying out the iodophor either, a crap load of bubbles and solution still in the fermenter, cant taste it either...


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## stowaway (12/9/08)

reviled said:


> What are you using as a cleaner/sanitiser?
> 
> The last time I had really bad beer I was using Sodium Met
> 
> I have since moved to Napisan as a cleaner, and Iodophor as a no rinse sanitiser.. Havent had any problems so far...



Ive never had a problem with infection with K&K + extras.

My method is pretty solid although i do know a few things i can improve.

I wash out my fermenter as soon as their finished fermenting. Then i put pink stain in it and fill to top with water and leave until im ready to use. Then i rinse, rinse and rinse. then i spray brewsheild over everything and leave for 45mins. No rinse. And add.

I really think my issue with infection is when i transfer and Pitch. 

ps- ive just got some starsun havent used it yet tho.


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## reviled (12/9/08)

stowaway said:


> Ive never had a problem with infection with K&K + extras.
> 
> My method is pretty solid although i do know a few things i can improve.
> 
> ...



How'd you transfer it? I got SWMBO to help me lift the pot so we have one hand each on a handle, then I tilt it, pouring it into the fermenter which gives it a shit load of oxygen, then pitch yeast straight away (making sure theres water in the airlock)...

I wouldnt think it would be in the transfer/pitching process unless youre using a syphon or some extra equipment??


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## stowaway (12/9/08)

reviled said:


> How'd you transfer it? I got SWMBO to help me lift the pot so we have one hand each on a handle, then I tilt it, pouring it into the fermenter which gives it a shit load of oxygen, then pitch yeast straight away (making sure theres water in the airlock)...
> 
> I wouldnt think it would be in the transfer/pitching process unless youre using a syphon or some extra equipment??




until recently i have been using a Easy Syphon.. Im startin to think perhapes i didnt sterilze it properly.. i cant say for certain tho. 

But now my pot has a tap welding onto it. So ill just use that now.


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## trevc (12/9/08)

Sounds like a good plan. Just do a crazy clean of everything, especially when it comes to cube/fermenters/taps/lids, etc. I'd use bleach/vinegar for a deep clean of the plastic gear, then a rinse off and spray with hydrogen peroxide right before using.

If you're really paranoid, you could fill the fermenter nearly full, then add 250ml bleach, mix well, then add 250ml vinegar. Leave it to sit for a few hours at least. As many other have mentioned here, it will kill just about anything. Be sure to rinse thoroughly afterwards. Also,never let vinegar touch bleach unless its diluted in a large quantity of water.


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## Thirsty Boy (12/9/08)

I understand that people are doing No-Chill in the kettle and getting away with it - but you have to remember, you are on the edge of acceptable/normal brewing practice in quite a few ways.

You are BiaBing - a method which works and works well, but does so in spite of the fact that there are some very good reasons why it maybe shouldn't
You are No-Chilling - a method which works and works well, but does so in spite of the fact that there are some very good reasons why it maybe shouldn't
And when you are no-chilling you are doing it in a way which most people would say was a bad thing (not everyone, but pretty certainly _most_ people) and definitely not following "standard" NC procedure

Maybe it is an infection - if it is I hope you track it down and your beers end up being great. But, from what I see, you are several steps closer to failure than you need to be, every single time you brew. Perhaps you could take a bit of a look at your methods, and maybe try to do at least one of them in the standard/recommended way. Then your entire process might be robust enough to take a couple of knocks without turning out a bad beer.

At the moment you are not just a brewing "rebel" you are the guy who the _rebels_ think is a bit of a mad bugger who sails too close to the wind.

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but it might be something to think about at any rate.

Thirsty


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## hoohaaman (13/9/08)

Agrees with Thirstyboy.go back to basics see if you can knock out out a k&k with good results(excuse me).A infection in the brewery is a pain to find,ultimately a process of elimination.

Oh and never give up


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## katzke (13/9/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Perhaps you could take a bit of a look at your methods, and maybe try to do at least one of them in the standard/recommended way. Then your entire process might be robust enough to take a couple of knocks without turning out a bad beer.
> 
> Maybe I'm totally wrong, but it might be something to think about at any rate.
> 
> Thirsty



I have been thinking on the same lines. Stowaway has decided to work on so many changes at once I think it will work but what change did work? The shotgun approach is usually a method of last resort.

I blame water, others blame the kettle chill, some blame yeast, some the hops, and some call it an infection.

If we take a step back and look at the changes we may get someplace.

Did you chill in the kettle when you used extract?

Have you brewed the recipe before with extract?

Have you made any changes in yeast or the way you handle them?

Have you had anyone sample the bad beer and give an opinion?

If the answers to any of these questions do not help then clean everything up and brew 2 more beers. A proven light ale and a proven dark ale like a stout. If it was an infection then both brews should be a success. If it is water then the light ale will stink and the stout will be drinkable. Again get an opinion from someone that knows how the beers should taste.


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## kram (13/9/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I understand that people are doing No-Chill in the kettle and getting away with it - but you have to remember, you are on the edge of acceptable/normal brewing practice in quite a few ways.


Yeah I really don't understand this concept or the promotion of it. My first AG was done on the stove with two <20L pots which were 'no chilled' in the pots. It started fermenting in the fridge while chilling!


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## reviled (13/9/08)

kram said:


> Yeah I really don't understand this concept or the promotion of it. My first AG was done on the stove with two <20L pots which were 'no chilled' in the pots. It started fermenting in the fridge while chilling!



Before you added the yeast?


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## Screwtop (13/9/08)

trevc said:


> Sounds like a good plan. Just do a crazy clean of everything, especially when it comes to cube/fermenters/taps/lids, etc. I'd use bleach/vinegar for a deep clean of the plastic gear, then a rinse off and spray with hydrogen peroxide right before using.
> 
> If you're really paranoid, you could fill the fermenter nearly full, then add 250ml bleach, mix well, then add 250ml vinegar. Leave it to sit for a few hours at least. As many other have mentioned here, it will kill just about anything. Be sure to rinse thoroughly afterwards. Also,never let vinegar touch bleach unless its diluted in a large quantity of water.



Good advice ^ . When it comes to infections, once they decide to move in then you've got em until you find the problem and fix it. A lot of good beer has been thrown out due to infection. Lots of brewers say they are confident in their practices and probably are due to no infections finding their way into their equipment "UP TO NOW". Sanitisers are great at protecting against infection but in my experience not much good at getting rid of an infection which has decided to live somewhere in your equipment. AFTER WASHING everything in Napisan, give everything a good soak in a bleach/vinegar solution, I like to take the sledge hammer approach and use 5% bleach solution (250ml in 5L water) then add a half teaspoon of white vinegar. Soak everything "especially that autosyphon" for a couple of hours, rinse with clean water and leave to dry. Before next use, use no rinse sanitiser. Just take this one single step of sanitising/disinfecting first before trying anything else. 

Screwy

PS: Does the taste resemble black tea, it's high in tannin.


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## buttersd70 (13/9/08)

I agree with Screwtop on everything he said bar 1...the ratio of bleach/vinegar. Maximum efficiency for acidulated bleach is at pH6, which according to the men in white coats is achieved at a 1:1 bleach/vinegar ratio. So the no-rinse is 30ml/19L/30ml (1.6ml/1L/1.6mL). For the "anthrax killer", which was in an article that Braufrau linked to in the napisan thread (article by American Society of Microbiology is here ) reccomended 1cup bleach to a US gallon of water, with 1 cup of white vinegar added. This works out to just under 63mL/1L. So for a 30L fermenter, just go the whole hog and add a full 2L, its cheap as chips, afterall. Contact time required, 10-20 minutes. I do this as a matter of course to all my gear every so often (1/2 dozen uses or 2 months, give or take), whether it needs it or not, as a preventative measure. Pakes the plastic smell like brand new.  

Just make sure of a few things....firstly, add the bleach, then top up, but not all the way - leave room for the vinegar. Then add the vinegar, and make sure you have your head well clear, cl2 starts being given off. Do it outside in well ventilated area. Then just top up to the brim. Usual warnings, dangerous fumes, do at own risk, do not inhale, never mix vinegar directly to undiluted bleach, etc etc etc. Oh, and this is an anti-microbial agent, not a cleaner. Even at this concentration, make sure that it is clean first, napisan or whatever else.

Edit: don't forget to rinse at this concentration :lol:


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## Screwtop (13/9/08)

buttersd70 said:


> I agree with Screwtop on everything he said bar 1...the ratio of bleach/vinegar. Maximum efficiency for acidulated bleach is at pH6, which according to the men in white coats is achieved at a 1:1 bleach/vinegar ratio. So the no-rinse is 30ml/19L/30ml (1.6ml/1L/1.6mL). For the "anthrax killer", which was in an article that Braufrau linked to in the napisan thread (article by American Society of Microbiology is here ) reccomended 1cup bleach to a US gallon of water, with 1 cup of white vinegar added. This works out to just under 63mL/1L. So for a 30L fermenter, just go the whole hog and add a full 2L, its cheap as chips, afterall. Contact time required, 10-20 minutes. I do this as a matter of course to all my gear every so often (1/2 dozen uses or 2 months, give or take), whether it needs it or not, as a preventative measure. Pakes the plastic smell like brand new.
> 
> Just make sure of a few things....firstly, add the bleach, then top up, but not all the way - leave room for the vinegar. Then add the vinegar, and make sure you have your head well clear, cl2 starts being given off. Do it outside in well ventilated area. Then just top up to the brim. Usual warnings, dangerous fumes, do at own risk, do not inhale, never mix vinegar directly to undiluted bleach, etc etc etc. Oh, and this is an anti-microbial agent, not a cleaner. Even at this concentration, make sure that it is clean first, napisan or whatever else.
> 
> Edit: don't forget to rinse at this concentration :lol:




First let me say I have no knowledge on the subject. That said I believe that equal parts bleach and Vinegar will produce quite an acidic solution of way less than PH 6 :lol:

The information for my usage rate comes from Charlie Tally of Fivestar chemicals (Starsan) who suggests that a PH around PH2 is required. A search of AHB or google should turn up this info, he also has a recommendation of a suitable bleach vinegar solution for use as a non rinse sanitiser in the brewery. We are probable talking about the difference between Sanitiser and a Disinfectant.

Screwy


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## stowaway (13/9/08)

:icon_offtopic: Why use viniger at all if you are going to wash it off? Isnt diluted bleach by itself a good sanatiser?


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## buttersd70 (13/9/08)

No, the ratio of equal bleach/vinegar is from the Charlie Tally interview on BasicBrewing....for the no rinse sanatiser, it was 1oz to 5 USgal. The 1 us cup to 1gal, again in equal mix of bleach vinegar, is from the ASM article, and this is at disinfectant strength. This article is what states that equal quantities of houshold bleach and vinegar achieve pH 6. Charlie Tally, when talking about bleach (as opposed to starsan, which is, I believe, pH2) gives the pH of the bleach solution as pH5 for equal parts bleach/vinegar.
I transcribed some of the most interesting parts dealing with the tech stuff from the basicbrewing interview at the time I listened to it.



> CT: every brewery in the united states, after their bottles go through the rinser, are treated with a 5ppm solution of sodium hypochlorite bleach at a ph of 5, because they are maximising the hypochlorite in the product.



In relation to the no rinse dilution, as a sanatiser:


> JS whats the contact time?
> CT 30seconds. If the pH is right.


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## buttersd70 (13/9/08)

stowaway said:


> :icon_offtopic: Why use viniger at all if you are going to wash it off? Isnt diluted bleach by itself a good sanatiser?



No, diluted bleach is not a very effective microbial agen. The vinegar reduces the pH to the acid range, and this makes the most effective use of the hypochlorite in the bleach.The article linked to in my previous post explains it better than I could.


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## katzke (13/9/08)

stowaway said:


> :icon_offtopic: Why use viniger at all if you are going to wash it off? Isnt diluted bleach by itself a good sanatiser?



Best to look at the original podcast or article, but acidified bleach is more effective at lower rates of use. In American English you use less bleach per unit of water and get the same effect. Using less bleach makes it easier to rinse and from what I have read does not impart that almost impossible to remove bleach smell. It is recommended by people that do not want to use commercial sanitizes and save a little money. A bottle of bleach over here big enough to treat a kids swimming pool is like a buck, a bottle of vinegar a bit more. I guess if I was to swab down the entire home brewery I would use the bleach. I have Iodaphor and StarSan so I use them for sanitizing my equipment.


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## Darren (13/9/08)

Does anyone here know how they make vinegar?? If so do you think it is a good idea to use vinegar as a sanitiser (with or without bleach)??

cheers

Darren


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## buttersd70 (13/9/08)

Use white vinegar only, because it's distilled.


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## Darren (13/9/08)

I say adding vinegar is just hypothetical wank. I work in a lab dealing with human pathogens and genetically modified organisms. Legislation states that benches, spills etc. only need to be swabbed with 0.1% hypochlorite. Never any mention of needing to acidify hypochlorite to be effective!!

Also, just had a look at my bottle of white vinegar in the kitchen. Seems there is a light dusting of "stuff" on the bottom of the container. If by some chance this is acetobacter then using it with your sanitiser would be problematic.

cheers

Darren


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## buttersd70 (13/9/08)

I make no claims to be an expert on such things; I only point to the information available. It's up to the individual to decide if it's valid, or a 'hypothetical wank'. 
Perhaps you would care to send an email to Charlie Talley at 5 star to discuss whether or not its a wank?


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## trevc (13/9/08)

As far as I'm concerned, it's already been tested and proven that acidified bleach is much more effective. A few quick searches make that quite apparent. However, the vinegar point that Darren raised seems pretty valid, especially considering how long some people leave that stuff sitting around. Judging by the look of my bottle, I'd say it's pretty old


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## Darren (13/9/08)

Trev,

I do also agree that acidification of hydrochlorite adds to it effectiveness. If you carefully read the literature though you will see that rationale behind acidification is to reduce the minimum amount of hypochlorite used in each sanitising event (penny pinching commercial enterprises). On the HB level if you consider 10kg of dry chlorine costs $40. If you use 2 teaspoons in a fermenter as opposed to 1 teaspoon it does not make economic or microbiological sense to add "vinegar" to increase the effectiveness because it is pretty damn effective by itself. Just keep it away from stainless steel and you should be fine.

cheers

Darren


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## Thirsty Boy (13/9/08)

You're right Darren, if you are going to have to rinse anyway, the vinegar is only a cost saving measure, more bleach would do the same thing.

I think the main reason that the acidified bleach thing is a good idea for homebrewers, isn't the "nuke it to hell" strong version - its for being able to use it as a no-rinse sanitiser. By acidifying a really quite dilute solution of hypochlorite, you make it both effective enough to use as a sanitiser and low enough in concentration for the bleach to not contribute off flavours.

I regularly use the 1oz each of bleach & vinegar to 5G of water mix - as a no-rinse sanitiser. Its seems (in as much as I haven't had infection issues) to be effective and it definitely doesn't introduce chlorohenyl off flavours (not just my tastebuds - comps and pro-brewers)

Worrying about any acetobactor in the vinegar is a bit silly though ... they are all about to be immersed in a very effective sanitising solution. You either trust the sanitising properties of the solution, or you don't. If its the former, the acetobactor are screwed anyway - If its the latter, you shouldn't be using that solution as your sanitiser in the first place.

Still, if you have any other acid about the place - why not use that and play it safe?


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## kram (13/9/08)

reviled said:


> Before you added the yeast?


Yeah I didn't add anything, the lack of an airtight seal on the pots allowed wild yeasties to get in. Hence why this whole concept of no-chilling in the kettle baffles me, considering people get all uppity about the 200ml of oxygen headspace in a no-chill cube.


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## Darren (13/9/08)

Thirsty boy,

Why would you add an organic acid (acetic) to chlorine?? I suggest the chlorine will spend more effort acting on the acid itself than on any contaminating organisms. To me this seems like the biggest fault in the "vinegar theory"

Also, strong acid and chlorine will emit chlorine gas, which if inhaled, will be akin to smoking two packets of ciggies a day for fourty years, in two seconds. 8(

Probably best for the homebrewer to stick with a slightly higher concentation of chlorine than attempting mixing chemicals that most have no idea about which they are dealing 8>0

cheers

Darren


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## Thirsty Boy (15/9/08)

Adults not children are into homebrewing - surely they can be effectively told that they need to dilute the bleach in the water before they add the vinegar. If not, well Darwin had an interesting theory about that sort of thing.

Lots of people like to use bleach to sanitise because its cheap, lots of people think that no-rinse sanitisers are preferable to ones that need to be rinsed. It seems that you can have the best of both worlds. And thats of interest to a lot of people.

No matter whether you think that it counter intuitive, or not necessary to add vinegar to a bleach solution, the fact is that it produces an effective no-rinse sanitiser that is extraordinarily cheap and can be made from stuff most people have in the cupboard. My experience tells me so, the experience of quite a few others does too, and the public advice of a leading manufacturer of brewing sanitizers adds weight to that experience.

I understand your points, I even think you are right. It just doesn't matter thats all, because the sanitising mixture in question - works.

Anyway this is all fairly off topic, so we should probably call it quits and just hope that the OP solves his problem one way or the other. I'll stay mum from here on in unless there's more news on the OP's brew.


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## Darren (15/9/08)

Last one from me too. No rinse bleach solution. You have to be joking surely?? You must rinse after using bleach as chlorophenols are the most vile tasting compounds in beer.

cheers

Darren


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## Tim (17/9/08)

Also, how much money are you really saving by using bleach as opposed to a brweing or dairy specific sanitizer such as iodophor. A 100ml bottle of conc iodophor is about $10, and lasts about a year if you brew every fortnight. For all the money that you spend on quality ingredients, I just don't see how you can justofy being a tightass when it comes to cleaning.


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## katzke (25/9/08)

Hate to keep this thread off topic but was looking for recommendations on what version of 300 stainless to use for fitting on a converted keg and found this.

http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/brewcorr.txt

It is a long article about corrosion in brewing equipment. But has importance when considering using bleach for a sanitizer. It shows that StarSan is a good sanitizer for use in brewing if you need to sanitize any stainless vessel. Bleach either with or with out acid may be good for glass, plastic, or hoses and other equipment but nothing beets an acid based sanitizer for stainless.

It also shows the importance of pacification of stainless after using an alkaline cleaner. I have read and had people respond to my suggestion that pacification is not needed.


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