# First Cider i can replicate the taste



## 4feathers (13/1/13)

Hi people, been brewin for a long time and like most of us we still experiment even if we are happy enough with our product. Been makin cider for a while and have always enjoyed it then i came across this Apple Cider recipe in one of the forums on this site. I have made this 3 times now and every time it comes out reliably very good. I have been trying for some time to get my lovely wife to have some nice cider instead of her Rum and Coke and this has finally shifted her thoughts. The only thing i changed was i used Organic Fresh Apple & Pear Juices from the cold section juices at Woolworths. It really is a nice drink with a reasonable kick with a nice mouth feel. Peter p.s i don't keg..


Red Rocket Brewery




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1,333 posts
Posted 11 January 2009 - 07:42 PM
Here is my tried and tested cider recipe that has cider drinkers quaffing for more

12 Litres 100% Apple juice no added flavours or preservatives (Bought from Aldi)
8 Litres Apple & Pear juice no added flavours or preservatives (Woolworths)
250-300 grams LDME (light dried powdered malt)
3-4 Apples granny smiths or Pink ladys cut into quarters added to fermenter
Wyeast 4766 Cider Yeast (this is imperative)

Ferment for 8-12 days then chill for 2 weeks at 2-3 degrees or cold filter
Keg and enjoy


Franko
*Edited by Franko, 11 January 2009 - 07:46 PM.*



Like This


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## woodwormm (13/1/13)

thanks 

4feathers
i've been looking for a simple cider recipe... to start increasing my repoirtoir... beer down pat, now need to learn a new craft :blink:


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## Phoney (13/1/13)

Yep, Franko's recipe is one of my old favourites...

Although I add a heaped teaspoon of yeast nutrient otherwise it can get a a bit of a 'rotten fruit' smell to it that puts you off.


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## Damien13 (14/1/13)

Awesome.... I think I might give this a go! Just a quicky.. what type of alcohol are we talking here, and does it make a dry cider? Anything that it resembles in the way of commercial product?


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## robbo5253 (14/1/13)

Does anyone know if this will work the same with Ross dry Cider yeast? Is it at all similiar?


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## bum (14/1/13)

robbo5253 said:


> Does anyone know if this will work the same with Ross dry Cider yeast? Is it at all similiar?


Franko says it is imparative to use the yeast he mentions. If you want to make the cider he's designed then you should use it.

The CB dry cider yeast will make cider though. I'm sure the cider will still even be good if it was going to be good with the Wyeast.

Personally, I'd try it as Franko designed it for the first one. The GB I make is based on his GB recipe and I'd trust him rather than saving a couple of bucks.


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## 4feathers (14/1/13)

Hi ya all. could not tell you alchol content as i don't take records for my ciders other than taste of end product and which recipe. 
I have found a HUGE difference in taste of end product and drinkability since i stopped useing reconstituted juices. The yeast used stops this from going too dry as long as you crash in cold as it says.
And yes go down the nutrient path as needed.
I can only comment on this particular mix of ingrediants and the outcome of said brew. Feel free to change all parts of it if you wish and you may end up with something even better.
This mix keeps me out of Dans while waiting for other brews to become drinkable, and i can replicate the result each time.
You can search for the thread and read the content if you wish, worth the read....See ya Peter
p.s don't try and mix dry LDME into cold liquid, mix with a bit of hotish water first.


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## 4feathers (14/1/13)

Hi ya all. could not tell you alchol content as i don't take records for my ciders other than taste of end product and which recipe. 
I have found a HUGE difference in taste of end product and drinkability since i stopped useing reconstituted juices. The yeast used stops this from going too dry as long as you crash in cold as it says.
And yes go down the nutrient path as needed.
I can only comment on this particular mix of ingrediants and the outcome of said brew. Feel free to change all parts of it if you wish and you may end up with something even better.
This mix keeps me out of Dans while waiting for other brews to become drinkable, and i can replicate the result each time.
You can search for the thread and read the content if you wish, worth the read....See ya Peter
p.s don't try and mix dry LDME into cold liquid, mix with a bit of hotish water first.


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## 4feathers (14/1/13)

Hi ya all. could not tell you alchol content as i don't take records for my ciders other than taste of end product and which recipe. 
I have found a HUGE difference in taste of end product and drinkability since i stopped useing reconstituted juices. The yeast used stops this from going too dry as long as you crash in cold as it says.
And yes go down the nutrient path as needed.
I can only comment on this particular mix of ingrediants and the outcome of said brew. Feel free to change all parts of it if you wish and you may end up with something even better.
This mix keeps me out of Dans while waiting for other brews to become drinkable, and i can replicate the result each time.
You can search for the thread and read the content if you wish, worth the read....See ya Peter
p.s don't try and mix dry LDME into cold liquid, mix with a bit of hotish water first.


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## 4feathers (14/1/13)

That info was so important i had to tell you 3 times Peter


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## Phoney (14/1/13)

4feathers said:


> p.s don't try and mix dry LDME into cold liquid, mix with a bit of hotish water first.


I used to be anal about this back when I was kit brewing. Then I read somewhere that the yeast will eat all of the caked up LDME anyway, so I stopped caring and discovered that whoever wrote that, was dead right.


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## 4feathers (14/1/13)

yes ,thats the word to descripe LDME and cold liquid....caked and the other word is #%*#en hard to pour into Glass Carboy mouth..Peter


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## Damien13 (30/1/13)

Anyone else trying this recipe?
I put one down 5 days ago and will report back..


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## doon (7/2/13)

Do we need to do anything to apples or they ok to just chuck in fermenter?


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## Airgead (7/2/13)

doon said:


> Do we need to do anything to apples or they ok to just chuck in fermenter?


Yep. You need to juice them.

Chucking in apple chunks does nothing at all. Except maybe introduce wild yeast on the skins.

Cheers
Dave


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## doon (7/2/13)

Fair enough. Was wondering as recipe says just quarter and chuck into fermenter


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## Airgead (7/2/13)

You can try an experiment - quarter an apple and add it to a jug of water. Leave it an hour and taste. What you will taste is water. All the juice and flavour is locked up inside the cells of the apple (except right on the cut surface). If you want to get those flavours out, you need to bust open the cells.

A lot of people do put chunks in to supposedly "add some apple flavour to a kit" but if you gave them identical ciders, except that one had chunks in it and one didn't, as a blind tasting, I guarantee they would never taste the difference.

Cheers
Dave

Edit - and even if you juiced that amount of apples and added them to 12l of juice you wouldn't taste a difference either. Its under a cup of apple juice into 12l of apple juice.


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## Deep End (7/2/13)

I thought the purpose of the quartered apples was to make the cider cloudy....just saying.


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## Airgead (7/2/13)

Deep End said:


> I thought the purpose of the quartered apples was to make the cider cloudy....just saying.


Not sure it would do that either. After all, floating some apples in water doesn't make the water cloudy. Cloudy cider is usually from fine apple pulp and pectins. Both of those are all locked up in a chunk of apple just like the juice and sugars.

Cheers
Dave


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## 4feathers (9/2/13)

Hi people, hope some have had a go at making this. I make as is and it works ,tastes delicious and as of this morning have found i can tolerate the after effects [from over indulging last night] without too many dramas.
I may have to up the output as now my lovely wife is also enjoying the mix as well. She was a rum and coke girl and had issues with waking up around 2 in morning and not able to go back to sleep [coke] but after a few of these she sleeps well and no after effects. And just quietly she gets a bit frisky as well compared with rum and coke which made her a bit toey.
Got one coming out of the carboy today.
A mate has made one useing reconstituted juice and he was not as impressed with taste compared to mine and i would agree, the taste is not the same and even the mouth feel is different. He also noted that recon juice when turned into alcohol leaves you with a dry mouth early in the morning and a need to drink water but you don't get that with fresh juice.. keep brewin, peter


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## 4feathers (9/2/13)

Hey Airgead, not an expert in what apples do but when you say" put some cut apples into water and wait an hour" is a bit misleading as we are not putting apples into water. We are putting apples into a apple juice, nutrient, yeast, enzyme,alcohol mix which i would think may have a different effect on apple chunks compared with water. When an apple falls from a tree we see the yeast and enzymes take over this piece of fruit and in no time at all the apple is mush and all cells broken down which returns to the earth as nutrient. Its like saying add sugar to water and you only get sweet water but add the yeast and enzymes and you don't get sweet water. As i said not an expert on what apples do but i don't think we should look at this with a simplistic veiw as the process is very complicated once you get down to the molecular level....just saying Peter


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## Airgead (9/2/13)

4feathers said:


> Hey Airgead, not an expert in what apples do but when you say" put some cut apples into water and wait an hour" is a bit misleading as we are not putting apples into water. We are putting apples into a apple juice, nutrient, yeast, enzyme,alcohol mix which i would think may have a different effect on apple chunks compared with water. When an apple falls from a tree we see the yeast and enzymes take over this piece of fruit and in no time at all the apple is mush and all cells broken down which returns to the earth as nutrient. Its like saying add sugar to water and you only get sweet water but add the yeast and enzymes and you don't get sweet water. As i said not an expert on what apples do but i don't think we should look at this with a simplistic veiw as the process is very complicated once you get down to the molecular level....just saying Peter


True. It is a bit simplistic. But if you do a blind tasting (which I have) you will find that its accurate. Adding cut apples really does nothing perceptible to the cider. If you think about it, in terms of volume, a few apples in 15-20l or so is such a tiny percentage that even if you did get extraction, its so little that it won't be perceptible.

Cheers
Dave


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## jglo9407 (9/2/13)

Hey,

Can someone explain what the addition of the malt does to a cider?

Cheers,


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## Airgead (9/2/13)

jglo9407 said:


> Hey,
> 
> Can someone explain what the addition of the malt does to a cider?
> 
> Cheers,


It adds fermentables. And some unfermentable sugars. So it will make it stronger and possibly finish slightly sweeter.

It will also make it taste different. My missus refuses to drink ciders made with malt. Says they taste beery. I don't mind them myself (but then again I like beer). Since I make my ciders for the missus I don't use malt.

I find that using apples alone you can get 5-6% easily so unless you want something stronger, you really don't need any extra fermentables at all. With kits YMMV as the strength of the brew is up to the kit maker and they may save money by putting in less apple and asking you to supplement the fermentables with something else.

Technically I believe a cider/malt combo is called a graff.

Cheers
Dave


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## 4feathers (10/2/13)

hey Airgead, me again. As i said i am not an expert on what apples do and can't quantify my results other than with taste. I too have don't some tests [blind testing means that you had no idea whatsoever as to which mix had which ingredients, i can't do this cause i am the brewer making the test subjects so i am thinking you had someone else make up your test batches, correct?] and have had the oppisite results to you. Firstly i will say i use only organically grown apples and organic juice so the difference may be in the apples themselves.
I have found the addition of the apple into the mix adds a slight tartnest to the taste, this tartness is not noticable when just made with juice. Apple juice is quite sweet tasteing if you use the real juice and not the recon stuff and i believe it is the skins that add the tartness to the mix.
Seems you like an experiment like i do so try this, get that glass of water and if possible get an organic apple [so you can safely keep the skins] grannies are good , smash the apple [don't chop] completely, chuck it in the water,put another glass on top of apple to keep the apple submerged[no air] over the next week or so [depending on temp] you will notice that it will start to basically turn to mush. Have a taste or two each day and around the 4th day you could notice that among all the tastes there is a tartness creeping in and then as it continues on its way to mush it will dissappear. 
I would agree that the amount of apple added to mix may not make a percievable difference but with tartness you would not want a lot anyway. It all depends on each persons taste buds and hence i will continue to add the apple but really it comes down to personal taste. I believe a graff also contains hops so this may be graffish but not a graff..

jglo9407, yes it does what airgead said but its the mouthfeel where i notice the difference. It seems to add to the viscosity of the drink thus coating the mouth with a thicker product allowing the tastes to linger over taste buds longer allowing you to get a fuller flavour and feel. But thats my mouth and taste buds.

In all as the recipe stands it makes a drinkable drink in a reasonable time thats a bit different from the norm. I also pulled from a carboy yesterday [along with one of this mix] a very similar recipe with the addition of 1.36 kg of 60l crystal malt, apple juice was warmed and then steeped for 45 mins over crystal. This looks different, smells fantastic and tastes like its going to be good. keep brewin peter


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## manticle (10/2/13)

I believe airgead was talking about the idea of quartering apples and adding them in. Different story if you scrat/crush them into a pomace as you are suggesting - however if you go that far, why not just take the next step and juice them too?


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## 4feathers (10/2/13)

Hey Manticle, the reference to crushing was in relation to airgead's jug of water experiment and encouraging him in another experiment. 
"You can try an experiment - quarter an apple and add it to a jug of
water. Leave it an hour and taste. What you will taste is water. All the
juice and flavour is locked up inside the cells of the apple (except
right on the cut surface). If you want to get those flavours out, you
need to bust open the cells."
None of us [?] add apple to water when we brew, we add it to the complex mix in the fermenter. I do not crush the apples added to fermenter. When i take the added apple chunks from the fermenter they are no longer chunks they are well on ther way to mush and if it's mush we are getting closer to the cells, allowing the enzmes to act on them, aren't we.
When we add apple it"s not for an hour.

Airgead is correct ,you will taste water because the apple is still apple, if the apple was mush and more time allowed he would taste it differently. Even if airgead did not crush the fruit but instead let the jug sit for a few days he would taste apple.
So i was trying to point out to airgead that when we chuck in the chunks we are trying to copy what is happening to the apple crushed in the water and turning to mush. I believe it is possible to extract goodies from apple chunks added to the fermenter and allowed to ferment over time.

I do not scrat for juice due to time and availability, also the fresh organic [certified] Tasmanian Apple juice [300 added] that is freely available for around $3 a litre can't be beat, especially by me in my shed scratting 21 litres of juice at a time. I have tried it though, a lot of work but oxidises very quickly unless you act fast. Peter


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## Airgead (10/2/13)

Oh yes... if you crush them to a pomace you are breaking open all the cells and making everything available. That's a very different story. Although the volumes are very low so any changes will be tiny unless its tarting up a kit where there is very little flavour to begin with.

The original question was about chucking in quartered apples, which, as I said, is useless.

Cheers
Dave


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## 4feathers (10/2/13)

Hey airgead, read above to save me typing it all again. Yes we are still talking about apple chunks. You comment that throwing in chunks is useless.
If we put apple chunks in some liquids [trying hard to avoid that water word] they generally fall apart and you have a slurry of liquid and all parts of the apple that have survived the process. Think were right with that?
So when we add the apple chunks to the complex mix of ingrediants [mostly water from juice] in our fermenter it theoretically should fall apart leaving all parts that have survived in our fermenter. Correct? This is what i get. When i first rack, what i remove as apple pieces are mostly mush and generally falling apart.
I don't think you take this into account in your theory unless the apple pieces you have removed are still like new and uneffeced and if thats the case, why. Given time should they not fall apart. And if they fall apart you have nearly all the pieces [gases are gone]
The crushing came about not in relation to the making of the cider but showing you that with time apple will turn to mush and will release the goods even in a glass or jug of water. Crushing in this case was to speed up the process so you could test the results quicker. Do the same experiment but don't crush the apples add a bit more time , same result, they will turn to mush. Nothing to do with the making of this recipe.
I think the sticking point here is the state of the apple. Its either whole or mush.
Apple chunks in liquid short term =apple
Apple chunks in liquid long term = mush
We want mush. I don't think you can base a theory about apple chunks being useless unless the apple in question goes through the same time and process as would be experienced in the actual process.
After all apples is apples right..


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## Greg.L (10/2/13)

I am with airgead/dave on this one. Adding a few chunks of apple won't make a noticeable difference. One aspect people miss is the historical aspect. People have had thousands of years to work out the best way to make apple cider. Surprise surprise, the best way is to juice fresh ripe apples and ferment the juice. If the best way was to chop up apples and put chunks in the ferment, that is the way we would be doing it. I trust all the people who have gone before to work out how to do things, and there isn't any idea you can have about cider that hasn't been thought of and tried by someone else. (people have even tried adding dead rats).


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## Airgead (11/2/13)

Greg.L said:


> I am with airgead/dave on this one. Adding a few chunks of apple won't make a noticeable difference. One aspect people miss is the historical aspect. People have had thousands of years to work out the best way to make apple cider. Surprise surprise, the best way is to juice fresh ripe apples and ferment the juice. If the best way was to chop up apples and put chunks in the ferment, that is the way we would be doing it. I trust all the people who have gone before to work out how to do things, and there isn't any idea you can have about cider that hasn't been thought of and tried by someone else. (people have even tried adding dead rats).


I thought it was dead chickens - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cock_ale

And I have heard of recipes where you throw in a chunk of horseflesh when you add the yeast.

If we leave aside the discussion on whether the chunks of apple will pulp up or not (and if it needs pulping to work then why not pulp the things in the first place and give the yeast longer to work on it... 30 seconds with a food processor and its done), if we look at volumes, its such a tiny amount.

An apple might give you, what, 50ml of juice? Maybe100? Depending on how well you can extract it. Even if we assume that its the whole volume of the apple that we are adding, so pulp, core, seeds, etc, you are looking at what? A half cup maybe once its all pulped up? So 4 apples is at best 2 but lets be generous and say 3 cups of material. In a 20l batch. 20l is around 80 cups. So 3 cups of apple juice added to 80 cups... of apple juice.

You could argue that you can taste even 50g of something like black malt in a batch of beer but that's a very different beast. Things like black malt have a very strong flavor that is very different compared to the flavor of the base malt. Here we are adding two thing with very similar flavors together (juice and juice or juice and pulp).

That small fraction might, maybe, have an impact on a cheap kit where there is 9/10 of stuff all actual apple in them *cough*blackrock*cough* or something made from very sweet shop bought juice which has very little acid or other complexity. In that case adding some granny's might have a perceptible impact on acid but I'm not confident. Even then I would say that pulping and juicing would make them far more effective than chucking in whole. Pink lady have sweetness and that's about it. I can't see how adding them to already sweet juice could have any impact.

My standard cider uses 20% grannies to add acid to a mix of other eating apples (mostly pink lady and braeburn) and even with that, the difference is quite slight. Under 10% and its almost imperceptible.

Cheers
Dave


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## robbiep (11/2/13)

Anyone else tried this recipe?


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## Damien13 (11/2/13)

I just kegged today, I will report back in a week. Out of the fermenter it tastes amazing, BUT there is a slightly dodgy aroma, kind of faintly off-fruit smelling that I really hope disipates. So far, this feels like it will be a really nice drop, just worried about the dodgy aroma.
Peter, have you had this aroma before? Does it go away? I followed your recipe pretty closely, and added nutrient as suggested.
Am keen to hear your thoughts, AND yes, the apples I popped in there looked pretty squishy and kind of 'eaten', after I racked it. Those yeasies went to town!


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## 4feathers (11/2/13)

Hi all, now getting back to it, nobody has said that adding the chopped apple to a mix will make the world of difference but* airgead is saying it does nothing ,useless was the word i believe*. You can even do his experiment of throwing some apple in a glass of water and wait an hour and this will prove that it does nothing. Read through the text its in black and white. I said this was simplistic he agreed and it went on from there.
Some of you miss this point and rather go to great lengths trying to tell me that chunks do little if anything, i am saying airgeads comment to a fellow brewer trying to figure out a brew was simplistic and as such the theory sucks, simple as that.
*"and if it needs pulping to work then why not pulp the things in the first place"* here is another comment i have issues with. If you read the text no one is saying that the apple for this recipe was, should be,is, could be pulped. The pulping comment from me is in the text ,read it guys. It was clearly aimed at airgeads simplistic view and his experiment of putting apple in a jug of water for an hour to prove apple chunks do nothing and are useless. If he did this experement with any apple in any state [whole, smashed, sliced,scratted, minced, quartered] and allowed a resonable amount of time the result would be different even in water. Try it yourself.
Further on pulping though, some of us including me make a lot of fruit included drinks of many kinds, every ,yes every recipe will tell you to "pulp" or "freeze & crush to pulp" the fruit , this is done so the most amout of goodies can be extracted from said fruit in the time frame of fermenting. So would it be true to say that the humble apple on its own in a world of fruit does not release any goodies at all while becoming pulp during fermentation, i find this an amazing thing.
*AnThat small fraction might, maybe, have an impact on a cheap kit*, this one is interesting, is this not saying the oppisite to what airgead is saying. So now we may be getting something, why don"t we might maybe get some goodies in a non cheap mix from the same chunks.

Hey Greg, historically did apple cider come from someone gathering the fruit taking them back to camp, juicing them and making cider, i think not, from what i have read it could have began with a collection of *whole* apples being stored , starting to break down and thus allowing the skin yeasts to act on the fruit to produce a product that if you drank it you fell over but it felt nice so it continued. And from what i read it may not have been humans that drank the first lot but more likely pigs or horses. And yes, we generally like to make things easier so now we juice.

Hey Damien13, most apple product will have odours that may seem strange and yes mine get them at times but have never found the odour in the finished, rested products that i drink, although in my records i have noted that recon juice seems to pump out a few more smells. What, oh my goodness did your fruit turn to pulp and release a few more goodies as well, we must be doing something wrong.
Definetly not my recipe, all support for Frankos recipe.

All in all guys its a recipe, not saying airgeads wrong in what he thinks but if you give advice at least give advice that stands up for itself ie, THE experement. The true experement would be carried out by a person in a white coat, lots of test tubes and a lot of letters after his name,until then i am happy with "i can taste a difference in cider with apple chunks added and fermented compared to not added and fermented and airgead can't. keep brewin Peter


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## Phoney (11/2/13)

Damien13 said:


> I just kegged today, I will report back in a week. Out of the fermenter it tastes amazing, BUT there is a slightly dodgy aroma, kind of faintly off-fruit smelling that I really hope disipates. So far, this feels like it will be a really nice drop, just worried about the dodgy aroma.
> Peter, have you had this aroma before? Does it go away? I followed your recipe pretty closely, and added nutrient as suggested.
> Am keen to hear your thoughts, AND yes, the apples I popped in there looked pretty squishy and kind of 'eaten', after I racked it. Those yeasies went to town!


I've had this a couple of times. If it's very faint, it will probably faint over the coming weeks. If it's isnt so faint, then I'm afraid it will hang around (like a bad smell, *boom tish*)

I didnt mind the stinky cider so much, the missus did. The way I've avoided it since is to add more yeast nutrient (like I'm talking two teaspoons instead of one) and skip the cut up apples, I dont think they do anything.


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## Greg.L (11/2/13)

4feathers said:


> Hey Greg, historically did apple cider come from someone gathering the fruit taking them back to camp, juicing them and making cider, i think not, from what i have read it could have began with a collection of *whole* apples being stored , starting to break down and thus allowing the skin yeasts to act on the fruit to produce a product that if you drank it you fell over but it felt nice so it continued. And from what i read it may not have been humans that drank the first lot but more likely pigs or horses. And yes, we generally like to make things easier so now we juice.


The origin of cider may have been whole fruit accidentally fermenting, but cider has been made from juice for a long time. Consider wine - white wine is made from juice, red wine is made from whole fruit. A long time ago these 2 methods were perfected and accepted as standard, you can make white wine from whole fruit but winemakers accept that it isn't the best way. It is fine if you want to put whole fruit in fermenting cider, but many years of accumulated experience tell us it probably won't improve your cider.


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## manticle (11/2/13)

Fair enough points generally 4feathers. Not how I would do it but you are right - experiments should take into account all the variables.


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## 4feathers (11/2/13)

Hi people, forums are great and at times it is hard to make ones point and thats ok. Sorry Greg but the point here is not that cider was first made accidently and led to fantastic advances in brewing that we all now enjoy but it was first made with *whole* fruit and as such did its thing and turned into brew . The complete apple has everything it needs to turn into brew so why can't apple pieces influence a brew as they turn to mush in a brew.
I find that bit very hard to understand as you may have guessed.


Throw apple in brew, allow time, break down to pulp, release of goodies, goodies go on to provide all the stuff we want in our drink only to be consumed by a happy brewer [hmmm] *or *throw apple in a brew, and *A*, bobs around a lot while resisting all attacks from the bugs in the brew to never break down and be rescued at a later date by a concerned brewer *B* bobs around a bit while trying to resist attack but succums and becomes mush but some how holds on to all the good stuff and is rescued by a concerned brewer.
Logic only points to one thing.

But really i am not here for that, i came across a recipe, i made several times, i shared, i chatted, i objected, everyone chatted, i drank, i drank, i drank, i drunk. I recomend this recipe as it is but feel free to change therfore becoming your recipe and not Franko's. See ya Peter


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## Phoney (11/2/13)

4feathers; In the time you've spent writing these epic long posts, I reckon you could have put down two identical ciders, one with chopped up apples, one without, and done a side by side compare to see for yourself. Then let us know what you've found.


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## 4feathers (11/2/13)

Hey phoneyhuh, yeah ya get that, lot of info out there, may as well add my bit. Over time i have done the odd thing or two to apples in the name of "science" whoops i mean "alcohol". Nothing to tell other than what i have said but a recommendation is, get away from recon juice, this really is a big thing. Have a look at how they make recon juice , what they do to the apples to concentrate to liquid or dry, then store it. We see it at the shops cheap. Australian and imported ingredients, Aussies add our water to a concentrate imported in. China is major major apple grower , sells cheap concentrate and a poor controller of chemical use and safe chemicals. How old is it.
This goes across the board for all alcoholic apple drinks.
I could go on but see ya Peter


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## drsmurto (12/2/13)

@4feathes

Whole, quartered or crushed apples may, just may make a difference to a cider but the recipe listed contains such a small percentage of apples to apple juice that there is no way you could taste a difference even if the apples dissolved completely. 3-4 apples in 20 litres of juice.

If, on the other hand, you made the % of apples as a proprtion of the juice much higher you may begin to see a difference, much like using freshly pressed juice rather than highly clarified and pastuerised juice from a bottle. At that point you probably should just start with freshly pressed apple juice. Or reinvent the wheel. Your choice.


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## komodo (12/2/13)

When doing a cider from store bought juice I prefer to add yeast with a bit of nutrient to approx 6L then every couple of days add another 2-3L of juice till I get to my full batch size.
Dont know if theres any reason why not to do this but it works for me and I've elliminated that rotten egg smell.
Go easy on adding cloves would be my only other recommendation.

I'm wanting to get about 200L of fresh juice next time I do a batch. Will need one hell of a starter though!


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## 4feathers (15/2/13)

Hi people, Dr Smurto, am not particularly interested in reinventing the wheel as i have already found a great recipe that gives a good drink, easy, quick and able to be reproduced easily... and its always my choice, am over the apple chunks or not, its personal choice.
Komodo, this is something i thought about as well, i live about 4 hours one way from roadside apples and i was thinking me and my missus ,in the ute, pick a heap, home ,scrat,press, ferment. To make it worthwhile 200lt would be the go. Have tried smaller batches, lotta work but no drama, just the thought of 200lt in one hit is tempting enough....Anyway, i put another of this mix down last night and this afternoon its really going well already, changed this mix from Woolworths Organic fresh apple juice into a coles fresh apple juice [only because our town was flooded and woolies was under water], foam head was a lighter colour than usual. Upscaled to 30 litres and will halve after primary into 2 singles, 1 as usual and maybe some munuka honey in the other changing it to a Cyser. Keep brewin Peter


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## robbiep (15/2/13)

how have others found this recipe?


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## drsmurto (15/2/13)

Picked up 40L of organic, freshly pressed apple juice on Thursday.

At this time of the year fresh pressed juice costs the same as the highly processed shite off the shelf.


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## Bribie G (15/2/13)

What temperature for fermentation? I have a
mob descending for Easter and might do a keg.


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## dogger (16/2/13)

DrSmurto - where do you get your juice from?


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## 4feathers (16/2/13)

Hey Bribie G, all my stuff is done at ambient temperature unless its really hot then its in temp controlled at around 25c.
DrSmurto, good to see you using the good stuff, i was amazed at the difference in end product after changing from recon juice to fresh apple juice, i was getting a bit low on Cider due to over consumption at chrismas so i broke out a recon cider i made in july last year, one glass and i put the lid back on and went for a young mead which was far better. Have been using the recon for conversion to Cider vinegar and it seems ok for that and its good for cooking, Roast pork in Cider for lunch tomorrow, yum. The last lot of fresh juice i bought cost me $2.50 a litre which i know is dearer than recon but its still cheap grog. See ya Peter


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## drsmurto (16/2/13)

Scored my juice from a small grower in the hills via a contact at work. $50 for 40L. They did it as a favour so i doubt they will be selling it particularly as they pressed it themselves in a basket press. Took them an hour to get that much juice.


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## Damien13 (19/2/13)

Ok, so kegged this recipe, and it still has a slight funky rotten fruit smell to it, BUT we went camping on the weekend and tapped off 1.5L into a grolsh bottle, and when I poured it later the next day the smell was gone! soooo any ideas??? perhaps it was the bottle warming up then cooling, or perhaps it was volatile sulphur that dissipated on tapping into the bottle..
ideas???
it tastes bloody nice by the way.... highly recommended...


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## 4feathers (19/2/13)

Hey Damien 13, yeah thats why i put the recipe up, cause it is a nice drink[cheers to Franko].
As for the smell, it seems apple, brewing and alcohol brings out the best and the worst from this forebidden fruit, most issues are nutrient based and helps having a strong yeast up and running and continueing to do so. Try and keep slightly ahead of the yeasts needs so they don't start stressing, just a bit of stress seems to start the odours coming and then you fight that battle. Better to be ahead of the issue. Other things are temp, different yeast, airation and really all the things you read on this site. Could be a large number of triggers. Have a good look at how you made yours and look for potentials.
But as you noted, they don't seem to follow through once the product is ready to drink in the glass so it may be all volatile gases tied up in solution releasing until a point when it disperses. Enjoy your cider...Peter


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## robbiep (20/2/13)

phoneyhuh said:


> Yep, Franko's recipe is one of my old favourites...
> 
> Although I add a heaped teaspoon of yeast nutrient otherwise it can get a a bit of a 'rotten fruit' smell to it that puts you off.


Did any of you guys give this a try to get rid of the 'rotten fruit' smell?


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## Damien13 (20/2/13)

Yeah, I added a heaping teaspoon of nutrient... will try aerating and more nutrient next time...


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## robbiep (20/2/13)

so aerating the juice and ingredients (by shaking the heeby jeebies out of it) before you pitch your yeast?


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## robbiep (20/2/13)

Damien, what juice did you use?


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## 4feathers (22/2/13)

Hey guys, had a spare carboy and found some cheap recon juice yesterday so am going to do this with it. This goes completly against what i think and say but it seems that a lot of people still prefer CHEAP cider from recon juice so i thought i would make one up so i can make comment from a real attempt rather than a perception gained from ciders made in the past from recon.
First up just looking at it in the bottles its not cloudy but rather clear with a strange red tinge to it. So where does the red tinge come from, ive scratted my own, put through a juicer and eaten a lot of apples never seen a red tinge to it. An additive maybe or a change when dehydrated to make recon base. Nothing listed in ingredients, just 99% apple juice,vit C. From inported and Australian ingredients. I would think from what i read elsewhere the Aussie bit is the water added to the concentrate to recreate the juice.
Added the pear and starting to look like juice.
Ldme in, looking better.
Smell of apple is not as evident.
Smack pack fired up.
Ready to go, will keep you posted......Peter


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## 4feathers (23/2/13)

Hi people, well its up and running and its looking good...i'm afraid to say....but,i am confident... that OKA sounds good tonight... and there will be a difference between this and recon juice.. Peter


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## Danielscott26 (24/2/13)

Peter
Im interested in doing this recipe but i dont have kegs. Do i just bottle and carbonate as i would my beer?


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## 4feathers (25/2/13)

Hi ya Dan26, good on ya, it won't dissapoint. yes you can bottle and carb similar to your beer. I don't keg as i prefer a still cider. A lady friend who makes this does keg and also bottle /carb and i reckon its excellent, the bubbles do alter the mouth feel a bit but adds another dimension to the drink itself which i really like. Just be aware of the issues with bottleing /carbing early but thats no different to other bottled/carbed drinks we all brew. enjoy youself peter


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## 4feathers (26/2/13)

Hi people, working slowly, cool weather due to constant rain making this a nice slow but solid start, seemed to get smelly quicker after first hit of nutrient but easy fixed. Less head on the keg brew but smells ok. see ya peter


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## 4feathers (1/3/13)

Yeah its me again, having dramas here, rain rain rain. bit of heat, rain rain rain, came home to black mould on outer carboys, easier to dump and wait for more favourable conditions, thinking mushrooms ....Peter


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## Airgead (2/3/13)

Mould on the outside should be fine.. its when you get mould on the inside you need to worry.

Have a taste and see if its OK.

Cheers
Dave


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## 4feathers (3/3/13)

Hey Airgead, yeah i know but this is some serious mould going on, its not just the carboys, also the air locks,even in the very top above liquid level and the thread on lid, my fridges and cold crash, my egg incubators and basically everywhere. I have dumped this and another and gone beserk with mould killer throughout my work area but fear it will only comeback as the rain is not going away according to bom. Carboys are scrubbed,sanitized and moved upstairs, also my portable cheese cave has to come up, we burn a wood stove in the house so no mould issues up here,also had to bring up all my bottled and corked mead and variants for storage in a spare room, bit worried about mould getting on the exposed corks so have sterilized [what a job, had to have a sickie from work].
My lovely wife is a bit toey about all the extras in the house but you get that at times. I have also told her its best to drink more just in case, but i don't think she appreciated that either.
Anyway the hot days are going so when it does ease off i can get back into meads which is my preference and just do the occasonal cider and cyser. See ya Peter


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## Airgead (3/3/13)

Ahh yeah. Fair enough. It is a trifle soggy up your way.

Cheers
Dave


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## Damien13 (3/3/13)

Ok, so an update on my sulfur weird smell. After 2 weeks in the keg, it has completely vanished. I would urge all to give this cider recipe a crack. Bloody delicious.
Thanks matey!


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## 4feathers (6/3/13)

Yahoo, Damien13 and I, all glasses to "FRANKO" ,this recipe does work, give it a hit... Peter .... am currenty drinking a pomegranite brew, this is another ripper, actually having a taste test at work tomorrow with fellow workers,,, "shhhhh" the boss dosn't need to know cause this is good..Thanks Damien13 always good to have someone back your thoughts....and you may like an apple caremal thats smelling great and early tastes are like the name..


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## 4feathers (9/3/13)

Hi ya all,4 days now with a bit of sun and heaps of wind so things are inproving and just around the corner is "sandra", potenially more rain .. drinking an exceptionally nice mandarin mead at 1 year old and wow this is nice, dry pithish against a sweet finish, i am only drinking the first rack dregs i have had stored in cold crash for months, basically a clean up but am surprised whats in some off those unlabled dregg bottles, gave my missus a taste and she wanted a glass, so that's less for me, bugga. see ya peter


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## robbiep (25/3/13)

Anyone tried this recipe with reconstituted apple juice?


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## bum (25/3/13)

Yep. It is in the original recipe.


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## robbiep (25/3/13)

Dpesnt the original recipe say this:


12 Litres 100% Apple juice no added flavours or preservatives (Bought from Aldi)
8 Litres Apple & Pear juice no added flavours or preservatives (Woolworths)

This isnt reconstituted apple juice right?


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## bum (25/3/13)

Aldi/Woolies juice isn't reconstituted?

[EDIT: Assuming Franko meant Homebrand for the Woolworth's juice, it is most certainly reconstituted. I'd pretty much bet my left one (assuming anyone wanted such a thing) that ALDI juice would be no different.]


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## robbiep (25/3/13)

yes, thats why i asked if you CAN use recon juice i.e. the types found in the isles, not the refridgeraters


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## bum (25/3/13)

Sorry, robbie, I editted something I hope is a bit more useful while you were posting.

Hope it helps.


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## Airgead (26/3/13)

Quick answer - yes you can. it has sugar. it will ferment. It may be low in nutrients though from the concentration process so you might want to look at adding some extra.

Cheers
Dave


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