# Need to age a dunkelweizen?



## manson81 (19/6/14)

I'm going to have a crack at a dunkel for a German themed party we're having in about a month. 

I know a hefeweizen would be best drunk fresh, but would this be the same for a dunkel? Or would it benefit a bit of aging in the keg? 

FYI it'll be force carbed.


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## Weizguy (19/6/14)

In my opinion, all relevant esters fade with time, and fresh is best


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## manson81 (19/6/14)

Excellent, cheers! I don't plan on making it til next weekend (mainly cos I haven't ordered the grain) so that'll give me 3 weeks to get it fermented out, kegged and carbed.


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## aaronpetersen (19/6/14)

I have finally finished a keg of dunkelweizen that was kegged about 4 months ago and I reckon it tastes the same now as it did when first kegged. You can interpret that however you like but I think it shows that ageing isn't needed but also isn't harmful.


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## Adr_0 (19/6/14)

Dunkel lager should be, but not a dunkel weisse. Easy on the roast, maybe just a tiny bit (0.5-1%?) carafa special 1 and get the colour with dark munich/wheat/care-wheat. I'm sure there are some awesome recipes out there.


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## Parks (19/6/14)

No need to age them but I find they drop nice and clear over a few weeks and drink better. The clovey phenolics really seem to come into balance as the banana ester fades a little.

That's based on my setup/temp/etc.


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## manson81 (19/6/14)

Thanks for the advice all!


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## philistine (20/6/14)

I did a dunkel weizenbock about .... 2 months ago now I reckon.... Anyway, I've noticed it improve significantly


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## philistine (20/6/14)

Bah! Hit send by accident.... Anyway, I was trying to say that the recipe recommended 4 weeks bottle conditioning and I found that even after 4 it didn't taste as good as it does now after what... 6-8 weeks in the bottle? I've also noticed that this brew also tastes far better after cold conditioning for at least a week in the fridge - very noticeably compared to just chilling it for a day or so....


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## Dan Pratt (20/6/14)

Dunkelweizen I made this winter like last year was grain to glass in 7 days......fresh is best. 

What recipe are you planning?


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## manson81 (20/6/14)

Still trying to think of the recipe. But I'm think 50% dark wheat, 40% pilsener and the rest some dark Munich, carafa and special B. Obviously in small amounts. Completely open to ideas though. 
Could chuck in a small amount of Melanoidin.


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## manson81 (20/6/14)

And ferment with 3068. And use noble hops minimally.


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## carniebrew (20/6/14)

I've got this in the keg now. Fermented at 17C with a deliberate 70%'ish underpitch of 3068. Fermented out in 4 days, kegged and carbed soon after. Great chocolate and vanilla blended in with the usual banana esters. Everyone seems to be enjoying it.

Recipe: Frau Farbissina Dunkelweizen
Brewer: CarnieBrew
Style: Dunkelweizen
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 26.17 l
Post Boil Volume: 22.17 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 17.50 l 
Bottling Volume: 15.80 l
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 36.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 14.8 IBUs
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
2.80 kg Joe White Wheat Malt (3.5 EBC) Grain 1 61.3 % 
0.75 kg Bestmalz Pilsner (3.2 EBC) Grain 2 17.5 % 
0.70 kg Joe White Light Munich Malt (16.0 EBC) Grain 3 15.3 % 
0.15 kg Special B Malt (354.6 EBC) Grain 4 3.3 % 
0.12 kg Carafa I (900.0 EBC) Grain 5 2.6 % 
25.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.80 %] - Boil Hop 7 14.8 IBUs 
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 8 - 
1.0 pkg Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) Yeast 9 - 


It doesn't take much Carafa I/Special B to give it that dark brown colour, and there's no roasted flavour at all, as it should be.


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## philistine (21/6/14)

This is the recipe I used - its an attempt at an Erdinger Pikantus clone.
credit and thanks to the author , but I have to apologise because I cant remember who it was!
Its for a dunkler weizenbock, but you could easily scale it down to bring it back to an average ABV.
Its a little on the heavy side (as in mouthfeel) , but I think that had more to do with mistakes I probably made while brewing it, however IMO its a really well balanced tasty brew and would be excellent if toned down to a standard Dunkelweis.
I also primed the bottles with DME instead of dex/sugar - but I'm not well versed enough in brewing to be able to say which is better for this beer.



> Batch Size = 22L
> OG 1.072 (70% efficiency)
> EBC 60.6
> IBU 25.2
> ...


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## manson81 (23/6/14)

After everyone's advice and my searching around online, I think I'll go something like this:
Wheat Malt 2.50	kg
Pilsner Malt	2.00 kg
Carafa 1 0.10	kg
Special B	0.10 kg
Wheat Chocolate Malt 0.05	kg

25g tettnanger @ 60
15g tettnanger @ 5

3068 yeast. 

What do you reckon?


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## Rod (23/6/14)

It maybe a matter of taste 

mine is 34 weeks old and nice and mellow

but then I drink most of my brews a 4 months *+*


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## carniebrew (23/6/14)

manson81 said:


> After everyone's advice and my searching around online, I think I'll go something like this:
> Wheat Malt 2.50 kg
> Pilsner Malt 2.00 kg
> Carafa 1 0.10 kg
> ...


Personally wouldn't bother with any hops after 60m, unless you're after something different from a traditional dunkel style. Rest looks good.

Just saying 3068 isn't quite enough though...if you're after something like the commercial offerings, you need to underpitch 3068, and ferment at 17C.


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## manson81 (23/6/14)

Thanks Carnie, so if I got a packet of Wyeast liquid 3068,i should only add about 70% of it?


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## Parks (23/6/14)

Do not under pitch it, seriously.

When they say to under pitch this is in relation to commercial pitching rates which is normally much higher than home brewers would pitch.

Pitch a healthy starter at the correct rate and ferment at 17.


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## sponge (24/6/14)

Slightly OT, but I read this article on BYO not too long ago which talks about wheat beers and yeast management.

Backs up what parks says about a nice big healthy starter.

EDIT: Not trying to open a wheat-beer-pitching-rate-can-of-worms, more just for reference sake.


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## angus_grant (24/6/14)

Here's a photo of my dunkel weizen puking yeast at 22 hours in to ferment. Pitched yeast from a 1.8L WY 3068 starter. That was 24L wort in a 30L fermentor.

it was all fermented out in about 4 days but I let it sit around for another 4 or 5 days at 18 degrees to clean up after itself (annoyingly it did not clean up after itself on the outside of the fermentor). It was fermented at 17.5 degrees. It is for the QLD case swap and I have yet to taste it. Mine will be about 2 months this Saturday which I am hoping is about the sweet spot for a DW. Will be belting a few of the spare DWs (and lots of others) on Saturday night so will add in a tasting report when I sober up on Tuesday.


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## mofox1 (24/6/14)

I was still drinking my Drunken Weasel dunkelweizen after being bottled for a well over a year. Certainly didn't cause it any deterimental effects. There's not much of a hop profile to kill, and the yeasty esters don't seem to be affected by age (as much?).

I think the only thing I noticed after that long was the yeast layer in the bottom had effectively solidified and kind of peeled away if I didn't pour gently (WLP300 I think).

They're certainly an interesting beer, a lot different to my usual preference of a round-house-hop-kick of an (I)APA.

Mick


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## manson81 (24/6/14)

angus_grant said:


> Here's a photo of my dunkel weizen puking yeast at 22 hours in to ferment. Pitched yeast from a 1.8L WY 3068 starter. That was 24L wort in a 30L fermentor.
> 
> it was all fermented out in about 4 days but I let it sit around for another 4 or 5 days at 18 degrees to clean up after itself (annoyingly it did not clean up after itself on the outside of the fermentor). It was fermented at 17.5 degrees. It is for the QLD case swap and I have yet to taste it. Mine will be about 2 months this Saturday which I am hoping is about the sweet spot for a DW. Will be belting a few of the spare DWs (and lots of others) on Saturday night so will add in a tasting report when I sober up on Tuesday.


Holy crap! 

I'm only going to brew 21L in a 30L fermenter so I'll see how I go! 

Couple of tweaks to my recipe too. Swapping out the carafa 1 for carafa 3 and the chocolate wheat for carawheat, as my local doesn't stock the originals.


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## carniebrew (26/6/14)

manson81 said:


> Thanks Carnie, so if I got a packet of Wyeast liquid 3068,i should only add about 70% of it?


No, you shouldn't even pitch just the whole pack of 3068, it's not enough. You need to make a starter that ends up with around 75% of what's normally recommended for an ale, by a yeast calculator such as this:
http://www.cheapmonkeys.com/yeastcalc/

e.g. if you have 19l of 1.050 wort, pitch around 150b cells instead of the recommended 176b.

Not sure why people think this doesn't apply to home brewed wheat beers, it works brilliantly for me, the flavour profile is a LOT more like the commercial beers than when I've pitched the optimal amount or more. I'll try and dig up the video I watched from a guy at Wyeast a while back that talked about how pitch rate sets what _kind_ of yeast flavour profile you get (e.g. esters or phenolics), and fermentation temp controls _how much_ of it you get.


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## carniebrew (26/6/14)

Here's that video, fast forward to 15:30 if you like, and he talks about "banana v clove" and how it's very pitch rate dependant. 6 million cells per ml for banana, 14-16m cells per ml for clove (specifically no banana).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEkwp_2Yezo#t=962

I believe this video was specifically put up by the Northern Brewer HBS guys in the US for home brewers.

That BYO article linked earlier is right about making a "healthy, substantial yeast starter", but that's got nothing to do with pitch rates determining yeast flavour profiles.  That's just good yeast management practice.


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## carniebrew (26/6/14)

Parks said:


> Do not under pitch it, seriously.
> 
> When they say to under pitch this is in relation to commercial pitching rates which is normally much higher than home brewers would pitch.
> 
> Pitch a healthy starter at the correct rate and ferment at 17.


Parks, let me know if you change your mind after watching the video from Wyeast above?


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## Parks (26/6/14)

I'll watch it at work tomorrow. I have used this yeast a lot over the last 2 years and can tell you exactly how it works, for me. It is probably the yeast I know better than any other.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Parks (26/6/14)

Also, you may find that our normal pitch rate is closer to that 6mil mark which then leaves the balance to temperature.

The worst thing you can do is under pitch deliberately and have it not ferment out properly or clean up after itself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## carniebrew (26/6/14)

Agreed...I think my message on underpitching a weizen is being misunderstood? I'm certainly all for making a proper starter and pitching healthy yeast. I just like to use a mild underpitch to drive the ester profile I'm looking for in a Bavarian style weizen. 6 million cells per ml works out to 120 billion cells in 20 litres. YeastCalc tells you that for 20 litres of 1.048 wort you need nearly 180 billion. So if you consider 6m per ml the normal pitch rate for a weizen, then I reckon we're in agreement here.

It is perfectly normal for my weizen's, pitched at 75%ish of optimal and fermented at 17C (with well aerated wort), to start showing fermentation activity within 6 hours, and be at final gravity in 3-4 days. Both of my last two hefeweizens for example went from 1051 to 1010 in 4 days. I think that's a great sign of active, healthy yeast.


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## Parks (30/6/14)

carniebrew said:


> Parks, let me know if you change your mind after watching the video from Wyeast above?


I think it did actually change my mind about something -

I had thought the yeast lost ester character on successive batches but I reckon as the batches progressed I was actually more and more over pitching, so that's something good to know.


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## angus_grant (30/6/14)

Well I did indeed belt my spare DWs and many more beers Saturday night. Very surprisingly, I was feeling OK Sunday......

So the dunkel had been in the bottle about 7 weeks by the swap. Had certainly carb'd very nicely and it was a nice mellow smooth banana chocolate. I've sneakingly placed liam_snorkel's photo from the tasting thread below. So for my setup I don't think 6 weeks aging has damaged it all.

Here's Liams review: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/81124-qld-xmas-in-july-in-june2014-case-swap-tasting-thread/?p=1192561
So I don't think the aging has dropped out the banana flavour or other yeast esters.

After having a chat to parks on the night, he said the beer was somewhat dry. But I don't think that has anything to do with aging, just the mash schedule. I will be making this again and sitting at 72 degrees mash step a bit longer to increase the body and add a bit of sweetness back in. Cause I am looking forward to belting 19L of this bad boy instead of just the 2 or 3 bottles on Saturday night.


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## manson81 (2/7/14)

Well I made a 500ml starter yesterday and pitched it tonight. I moved my ferment fridge upstairs inside the house to try and keep it a bit warmer but it was still sitting at 15 odd degrees after 4 hours. Have wrapped at towel around the fermenter to try and keep the warmth in overnight. Fridge will stop it getting too warm during the day, but I really need to get something to warm it up when it's too cool! 

Anyway, point is, I have nothing like the krausen Angus had in the video you showed me on Saturday after 4 or 5 hours! I'll probably come home tomorrow arvo and see a bit more action after the warmer temps in the daytime.


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## angus_grant (3/7/14)

That video was from about 22 hours into ferment and I made a 1.8L starter at 1040 which had fermented down to 1018 or so when I pitched. 
I've no idea how much yeast this would end up giving me but I calculated it out with mrmalty and it was a slight under-pitch. From my reading under-pitching stresses the yeast a bit and they produce more of the desirable off-flavours like banana or cloves depending on ferment temp. 

So wait a few hours and you might have a clean up job as well.


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## mofox1 (3/7/14)

manson81 said:


> Well I made a 500ml starter yesterday and pitched it tonight. I moved my ferment fridge upstairs inside the house to try and keep it a bit warmer but it was still sitting at 15 odd degrees after 4 hours. Have wrapped at towel around the fermenter to try and keep the warmth in overnight. Fridge will stop it getting too warm during the day, but I really need to get something to warm it up when it's too cool!


If your temp controller has heat and cool control, just put a low watt desk lamp inside the fridge.

Otherwise if you've just got the one load control, either put it somewhere warm with the fridge plugged in, or somewhere cold with the lamp plugged in.


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## Parks (3/7/14)

Something I have done with excellent results is put a cube filled with hot water in the fridge. I normally have a cube which could do with some "special attention" so I chuck in some PBW and fill it with hot tap water.

Caution though - the first time I did this it rose my ferment temp 5 degrees very quickly


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## manson81 (3/7/14)

That's not a bad idea!


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## manson81 (3/7/14)

I've just bought a reptile pad for 7 bucks on eBay so I'll throw that in when it arrives


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