# Sour beers



## mattric

I'm interesting in brewing a sour beer but I really have no idea how to go about it. I know the basics of an IPA and such but sour beers really have me interested.


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## DUANNE

what style sour beer are you interested in? mostly the process is much the same as any other beer with the main exception being that using brett or bugs an extended fermentation time of up to three years is required depending on the style and desired outcome. if you want to use just brett then basically any recipe can be used keeping in mind wether the funk will mix well with hops or other components of the brew. if you want to use oter bugs such as lacto or pedio then a very low amount of ibus becomes necasary to let them do the job expected of them. a basic recipe for me for a straight or fruited lambic is 50/50 raw wheat and pils mashed around 68 for an hour or so then boiled for 90 mins with around 7 ibu of hallertau for 60 mins. chill put in a glass carboy to avoid oxidation and pitch a wyeast or whitelabs lambic blend. anytime you drink a our beer you can flame the lip of the bottle and pour in the dregs in youre caboy for added complexity. at 12 months either leave it as a straight lambic or put fruit in and leave for another six or 12 months till completely and thoroghly fermented out then bottle. you can also blend for gueze if you get several going at the same time.


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## manticle

If you're into lambics, google jim liddil lambic lesson.
If you're into funk/experimental check out mad fermentationist blogspot.
Also see babblebelt forum.
More info on what your preference is and you'll get tons more info here.


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## QldKev

Also check out the berliner weisse thread

QldKev


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## Batz

Talk to Winkle, best sour I ever had was one of Perry's just recently.

Batz


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## Tony

Im also interested in the process to make a good lambic. The Berliner Weisse was great and has sparked a want to make somethiing a bit more complex.

With my current long term dry spell, it will also be a bit of fun to watch it rot and have it getting close to bottle in 2014.

I have a couple EKG plugs pulled apart and "aging" for it.

Any tips from sour beer pro's out there much appreciated!

Cheers


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## barls

mash high to give the bugs more to eat and wait. 
other than that, im learning as well.
its all in the ageing and blending i think but it depends on what your trying to make.


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## Bizier

I think it is a learning curve, and there is no simple thing to do to make a great sour, but there are some ways to make easy soured beers that will be good and will start you off on your own learning path. Getting multiple organisms to do exaclty what you want is a fair bit of a task.

I find a lot of sour beers I make initially disappoint me because it was not what I had in my head, though when I taste it, it tastes as it 'should' - i.e. it tastes like a combination of the ingredients and processes I used, just different to my expectation.

I would advise against using acetobacter (vinegar producer) found in roselare blend until you are a bit more familiar and I would use a glass fermenter if you do.

You can do a relatively quick and easy beer to get your toes wet, something like a low ibu cream ale kind of beer and pedio or lacto to tart it up.

If you are looking at souring bigger beers, then pedio is your go-to bacteria.


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## Rowy

Batz said:


> Talk to Winkle, best sour I ever had was one of Perry's just recently.
> 
> Batz


I do believe I sampled that beer with you Batz and can say without fear of contradiction that it was a cracker. Mind you it was a little 'later' in the evening and our tastebuds had been well exercised :blink: That by the by Winkle is still your go to man in my humble opinion.


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## Batz

Rowy said:


> I do believe I sampled that beer with you Batz and can say without fear of contradiction that it was a cracker. Mind you it was a little 'later' in the evening and our tastebuds had been well exercised :blink: That by the by Winkle is still your go to man in my humble opinion.


That's the one Rowy, and that was the night. :beer:


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## Rowy

How are those sandbags going Batz?


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## Tony

now....... where is that winkle fella when you need him


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## Toper

I tried this on the weekend on tap at Beer Deluxe,Fed Square.Thought it was a cracker of a beer,couldn't get enough of it. http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/28036/84997


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## Tony

Would anyone have a recommendation for a Wyeast blend.

I am thinking of using either the Roeselare ale blend or the Belgian lambic blend.

both read the same as per the specs.

???


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## manticle

Only used the roeselare myself so can't advise on the other.
First batch was mainly brett funk (and well received in sour/funk case swap) and I have repitched on the cake a couple of times. With time and repitching the aceto becomes more dominant - enough for me that 3 pitches on the same cake was my limit.
I like sour balanced with funk and complexity so ageing with various flavours (oak, vanilla and whisky/whiskey are favourites) works for me best.
My roeselare was well old when I used it but that stuff just keeps going.


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## Tony

Spent last night reading the lambic lesson you mentioned above manticle......... awesome information resource.

I have double vac sealed all my hops and buried them in the deep freeze but i had a couple of pound packs of saaz and hallertau i got from the states a while back left out.

I have just run them through the grain mill to break them up, and will begin the long aging process. I may take some and speed up the process in the oven at low temp for a day for the first batch but in a couple of years i will have genuine aged hops 

I think i might go with a raw wheat / Belgian pils grist for 1.052, and do a long winded turbid mash with a 3 to 4 hour boil.

I am even looking into oak casks 

I know a bloke in the wine industry and i can get a french oak white wine cask but it will be 225 liter which is a bit big 

Im after 20 to 50 liters


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## manticle

Obviously less romantic but oak chips in a hop sock or minimash bag work, aged in a silicon topped glass demijohn.


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## Goldenchild

I finally found a pdf copy of the out of print book "Classic beer styles -Lambic" 

PM me for the link so i dont have to publish copyrighted material on the forum.


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## Tony

Thanks goldenchild......... PM sent.

Manticle, when you say silicon topped, what do you mean exactly?

I had my Berliner Weisse sit for 3 months with just a tin foil lid and it was ok.


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## winkle

Tony said:


> Spent last night reading the lambic lesson you mentioned above manticle......... awesome information resource.
> 
> I have double vac sealed all my hops and buried them in the deep freeze but i had a couple of pound packs of saaz and hallertau i got from the states a while back left out.
> 
> I have just run them through the grain mill to break them up, and will begin the long aging process. I may take some and speed up the process in the oven at low temp for a day for the first batch but in a couple of years i will have genuine aged hops
> 
> I think i might go with a raw wheat / Belgian pils grist for 1.052, and do a long winded turbid mash with a 3 to 4 hour boil.
> 
> I am even looking into oak casks
> 
> I know a bloke in the wine industry and i can get a french oak white wine cask but it will be 225 liter which is a bit big
> 
> Im after 20 to 50 liters


But a hogshead is sooooo much cheaper Tony, a bulk brew day perhaps?


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## manticle

Tony - I just mean a silicon bung in the top - seals well and less likely to impart any flavour than a rubber one.

The ones I have have holes for an airlock so I have tended to fit the airlock then wrap the airlock with glad and foil. A hole-less bung would be best if you can find one.

When you bulk age for such a long time, you want to reduce exposure to oxygen as much as possible, particulalry if you want to keep aceto levels in check.


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## Tony

winkle said:


> But a hogshead is sooooo much cheaper Tony, a bulk brew day perhaps?


Mmmmmm i have been doing some serious thinking about it but, 220 liters of lambic is a touch scary.

I want it to sit for at least a year, maybe 2 before i even look like bottling it. a 1/4 tonne barrel will not be fun to move when we move house which we plan to do in the next year.

I think i will start with the first one in a 23L glass Demijohn and source some good European oak staves. These can be kept and put in successive batched to impart their ingrained infections


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## winkle

Tony said:


> Mmmmmm i have been doing some serious thinking about it but, 220 liters of lambic is a touch scary.
> 
> I want it to sit for at least a year, maybe 2 before i even look like bottling it. a 1/4 tonne barrel will not be fun to move when we move house which we plan to do in the next year.
> 
> I think i will start with the first one in a 23L glass Demijohn and source some good European oak staves. These can be kept and put in successive batched to impart their ingrained infections


We are thinking the same way mate (hey 220L is ONLY 10 cornies to drink if it goes pear shaped  )


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## NickB

C'mon guys, you don't need to fill the 220L to capacity (initially)....

Just whack a double batch in...easy to carry and move house with. Then pull out half, top up again, and you have a perpetual brew ala the BABBs brew.....


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## Tony

Funny you mention that Nick. I was also stewing on the idea of a beer version of a master stock so to speak if i did get the big barrel.

Every 6 months, drain 50 liters or so to mature on fruit or by its self prior to bottling. Would be great to have other people in on the venture as well. Make a day to come collect a corny 

Only issue i can see is will the barrel leak if its not completely full?

A free french oak barrel that has been used for white wine would work quite well and save me about $500


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## seamad

I've contemplated a solera type system for sours/lambics, and just take a portion out, some straight, others dumped on sour cherries or raspberries etc into demijohns, should get a pretty complex beer after a few years. Only partially filling will likely result in leaks and oxidation issues.
I have a 225 barrel at home from a wine bottling club I was in BC, its sat a while empty so may be buggered. Would be good to get a couple of brewers together to make it a bit more manageable.


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## Tony

I can knock out 60 liters on my main rig and 35 in my little rig in one day.

No chill them and go again the next day.

It will take 8 smack packs to get the correct pitching rate if i do it :O


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## NickB

Well, I can get 3 cubes on mine in a pinch, not high gravity beers but still.

Be keen for a road trip and an AHB master brew for sure!

Cheers


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## Tony

I know at least one other bloke locally who would be in on a communal brew, who has a passion for sour beers.

I will have to ask him.

I have sent a message to my friend to start organizing a barrel


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## Mobbee007

I'd love to be part of this Tony if it's possible? Am happy to road trip to the Hunter for it & I love sour beer
Cheers
Steve


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## tazman1967

I used put some of this into my Flanders Red:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SOUTH-AUSTRALIAN-RED-WINE-STAINED-FRENCH-OAK-STAVES-/380520177243?pt=AU_Building_Materials&hash=item5898c51e5b

I have some staves left over, was thinking of other beer styles to use them in.


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## Adam Howard

Edit: Manticle covered this already, if you just use tin foil for the entire period of aging you will end up with a large ingress of oxygen and acetobacter taking hold. Once fermentation really slows down and you don't have that nice blanket of CO2 forcing its way out the temp fluctuations allow the carboy to breathe in ambient air. 

Totally with you on the wine barrel idea. You will find though if you go with a smaller barrel you will get a far more pronounced oak character and also more oxidation due to the surface area to volume ratio. Get a few mates together and get a full size one. Going to get one myself to maintain a Flanders Red as a solera. Have a good read of The Mad Fermentationist's blog for a tonne of info on Lambics and oak aging.


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## Tony

True.

I have sources a site where i can get silicon bungs. Will invest in one or 2.

My mate said it may be difficult to get a barrel as most used barrels were ditched in November at end of vintage, but he is going to see what he can chase up.

I am currently speed aging half a kilo of hops in the oven at 95 deg and the smell is almost overpowering.

A local friend who will be going in on the project has a kilo of 5 year old hops he said he would donate to the project if i get it off the ground 

RexBanner, sounds like a plan mate, i will keep you posted.

I am thinking of also making another Berlinner Weisse with the smack pack i have in the fridge, and adding Brett to it this time round, and let it sit for a year as well.


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## adryargument

Tony,
If your able to source more than one barrel are you able to let me know?
I'm looking to increase my barrel count for more long term lambics.

Cheers


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## winkle

How many people in Brisbane would be keen barrel up a lambic or a Flander Red?


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## tazman1967

Count me in for either a Lambic OR Flanders Red
Cheers
Peter


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## Tony

I am in the process of ordering the bits needed for a flanders red.

going to make a 20 liter batch and put it on Roeselare in a demijohn for a year or 2. Also got some french oak chunks to age it on 

The smack packs for sale are almost a year old but should be ok i hope.


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## seamad

Shameless plug here.

Trying to organize a bulk buy, have contacted Yalumba and can get 100l octaves for $80 each, Pallet to Brisbane $160 [ 3/ pallet]

Check bulk buy section and put your name down if interested.

cheers
sean


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## Damien13

Hey Seamad... you sound awesome. Did you know there is a homebrew club on the Goldy now?
A group barrel would be frigging epic....


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## seamad

Trust me I'm far from awesome. I saw that a GC club had started and would like to attend a few but I live on Tamborine Mtn, so a bit far to travel, especially if you want to sample a few brews.Winkles idea of a group barrel is very tempting too, but again it's a bit of a drive from here, it's why I am trying to get a 100l, get my self set up with a solera system. Just pull off a couple of demijohns worth onto some fruit each year and top up the barrel.


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## Rowy

winkle said:


> How many people in Brisbane would be keen barrel up a lambic or a Flander Red?


I would be a starter Perry.


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## Rowy

Get a few blokes together draw off a keg or 2 every 12mths. Brew / top up day each time and one to begin of course!


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## Tony

My barrel supply man is not replying to messages............. im taking that as a "I cant get one or i cant give a stuff

GOing to run with a small batch

wont be as good as 200L of stinky infected funk spewing out of a barrel in the house.

Mmmmmm, the wife would not have been impressed


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## Tony

Today was the day for brewing Lambic. Winter is approaching and its going to be the best time to let it sit in its early stages.

I had a bit of trouble swollowing the "mashing high to get some unfermentables for the bugs" line of thought so I spent a fair bit of time reading and researching. I also had a dig through some old brewing folders on my computer with documents i saved many years ago when i was thinking of doing this. I found some great stuff, that probably didnt make much sense to me back then. But i know a lot more now and i was ready.

Im hoping this (long winded) post will pass on some of my thoughts and findings.

My research led me to the fact that its not so much the residual complex sugars that the bugs eat, but unconverted starch (particularly from unmalted wheat), tannins and other crap picked up in a hot sparge, compounds produced by yeast autollosis, diacetyl, the dead Saccharomyces yeast that does most of the fermentation, and anything else left over in there.

I now think of lambic bugs as goats....... The cows (Sacch yeast) will eat all the green grass and move on. The Goats (brett) will eat all the weeds and nasties that are left, cleaning up the mess left by the cows, and producing a very good usable paddock in the end. Brett also ferments without producing gas.

Another interesting thing i found was that the bugs work in stages. One sets the stage for the next, by producing compounds, by-products and adjusting wort pH during its active stage, and then dying off.

So basicly to make a half respectable Lambic, i figured i neded to break all the usual rules while mashing and sparging. I needed a lot of unconverted starch in the boil and i needed a lot of the burst starch and tannins associated with hot sparging (90 deg).

I also noted that it is traditional to boil for 3.5 to 6 hours.

So i did a full turbid mash, which is actually quite easy to be honnest. You just need to be johhny on the spot with having you water ready for all the steps, a good supply of hot water to speed things up, 2 burners and a collander that will fit in your mash ton.

Of course the other thing is aged hops, which i was lucky enough to source some AWSOME low AA very old hop flowers. They had near zero bitterness when i chewed one up. Perfect!

Now........ the recipe etc:

pLambic


-------------------------------

17-D Sour Ale, Straight (unblended) Lambic

Min OG: 1.040 Max OG: 1.054
Min IBU: 5 Max IBU: 10
Min Clr: 6 Max Clr: 14 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 22.00 Wort Size (L): 22.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.00
Anticipated OG: 1.053 Plato: 13.15
Anticipated EBC: 7.0
Anticipated IBU: 5.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 180 Minutes



Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
70.0 3.50 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
30.0 1.50 kg. Unmalted Wheat Australia 1.036 3


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
90.00 g. Aged Hops Whole 0.50 5.6 120 min.


Yeast
-----
3278 Lambic Blend



Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: Turbid Mash

Total Grain kg: 5.00


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
step 1 2 10 45 45 Infuse 55 5.00 1.00
step 2 2 10 59 58 Infuse 99 2.46 1.49
step 3 2 30 66 65 Infuse 99 2.23 1.94
step 4 2 20 72 72 Infuse 99 2.88 2.51




Below i will do a bit of a pictorial story of how i did it. Pictures paint a thousand words 
Note: I have no idea the reason behing the temp rests...... its just what most texts say the big Lambic brewers use so that i went with.

First up, i filled the HLT (50L) on my mash rig and got it heating to 90 deg c. I was aiming for 22L final brew in the cube.

I ran the unmalted wheat through the mill twice to get it a bit finer and help pull some fine starches early and improve efficiency. I have no gulls so went with 30% wheat to help myself out.

Mashed in at 45 deg C @ 1L/Kg. Yep..... its thick!







Rest for 10 min and infuse with boiling water to 59 deg C.
I rested at this temp for 5 min and then pushed my collender into the thick mash.
I collected 1L of starch liquid, and poured it through a strainer (to collect any solids) into a 10L pot.
I put this on a 2nd burner and heated it to 85 deg to stop enzyme activity.
















While it was heating, I also had my next infusion for the mash on a burner coming to the boil. Like i said.... you need to be johny on the spot.
After about 10 to 15 min at 59 deg C, I Infused up to 66 deg. Rest at this temp for 30 min.
After the 30 min rest, push the colinder into the mash again and collect about 3.5L of mash liquid. Tip this in with the origional 1L and heat imediatly to 85 deg to stop amy further enzyle activity.






While the turbid bit is heating, infuse the mash with boiling water to reach 72 deg C. Rest for 20 min.

After 20 min rest, put 2L of the turbid collected liquid in the kettle, and drained about 3 or 4 liters from the mash into the kettle also. I heated this to about 90 deg.






I then added the rest of the turbid liquid (that was sitting at 85 - 90 deg C) back to the mash and mixed in to get the mash temp to 75 deg. Rest 20 min.

I then drained to the kettle and sparged with 90 deg water to get enough collected wort in the kettle to require a 3 hour boil.

I added the aged hops after 20 min of boiling and just let it boil away, reducing the volume by about 30%
















cubed and cooling now 

cheers


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## barls

wow went one step further than me. i didnt bother with the turbid mash for mine.
have one fermenting with the brett lambicus only.
look forward to seeing the results for this.


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## Tony

Yeah... i figured, if im making a beer that will take 2 or 3 years before its ready to drink, i can put a bit of extra work in to help it along to the end result im after.

see how it goes i guess.


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## Goldenchild

I did pretty much the same recipe just used belgium pilsner and the same turbid mash procedure as you only a few weeks ago Tony. Guess we may have been reading the same files 

Was really surprised at the efficiency i got from the turbid mash ended up with about 82% when i only usually get 70% from a single infusion.

I have 23L sitting in glass on wyeast lambic blend and 5L in a demijohn sitting on a yeast cake of around 5 different belgium examples.

Can't wait for samples! Would be great to trade a bottle in a year or so to see if we can notice any differences.

Here is 2 of the links i referenced when doing my turbid mash

http://brewery.org/brewery/library/LmbicJL0696.html#Intro

http://byo.com/mead/item/1711-turbid-mashing


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## Tony

sounds like it mate.

I'm going to do a 2nd one in a month or 2 with a non traditional grist.

Thinking of making a Black Rye Lambic with pils, rye, raw wheat and maize.


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## winkle

Tony said:


> Today was the day for brewing Lambic. Winter is approaching and its going to be the best time to let it sit in its early stages.
> 
> I had a bit of trouble swollowing the "mashing high to get some unfermentables for the bugs" line of thought so I spent a fair bit of time reading and researching. I also had a dig through some old brewing folders on my computer with documents i saved many years ago when i was thinking of doing this. I found some great stuff, that probably didnt make much sense to me back then. But i know a lot more now and i was ready.
> 
> Im hoping this (long winded) post will pass on some of my thoughts and findings.
> 
> My research led me to the fact that its not so much the residual complex sugars that the bugs eat, but unconverted starch (particularly from unmalted wheat), tannins and other crap picked up in a hot sparge, compounds produced by yeast autollosis, diacetyl, the dead Saccharomyces yeast that does most of the fermentation, and anything else left over in there.
> 
> I now think of lambic bugs as goats....... The cows (Sacch yeast) will eat all the green grass and move on. The Goats (brett) will eat all the weeds and nasties that are left, cleaning up the mess left by the cows, and producing a very good usable paddock in the end. Brett also ferments without producing gas.
> 
> Another interesting thing i found was that the bugs work in stages. One sets the stage for the next, by producing compounds, by-products and adjusting wort pH during its active stage, and then dying off.
> 
> So basicly to make a half respectable Lambic, i figured i neded to break all the usual rules while mashing and sparging. I needed a lot of unconverted starch in the boil and i needed a lot of the burst starch and tannins associated with hot sparging (90 deg).
> 
> I also noted that it is traditional to boil for 3.5 to 6 hours.
> 
> So i did a full turbid mash, which is actually quite easy to be honnest. You just need to be johhny on the spot with having you water ready for all the steps, a good supply of hot water to speed things up, 2 burners and a collander that will fit in your mash ton.
> 
> Of course the other thing is aged hops, which i was lucky enough to source some AWSOME low AA very old hop flowers. They had near zero bitterness when i chewed one up. Perfect!
> 
> Now........ the recipe etc:
> 
> pLambic
> 
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
> 17-D Sour Ale, Straight (unblended) Lambic
> 
> Min OG: 1.040 Max OG: 1.054
> Min IBU: 5 Max IBU: 10
> Min Clr: 6 Max Clr: 14 Color in EBC
> 
> Recipe Specifics
> ----------------
> 
> Batch Size (L): 22.00 Wort Size (L): 22.00
> Total Grain (kg): 5.00
> Anticipated OG: 1.053 Plato: 13.15
> Anticipated EBC: 7.0
> Anticipated IBU: 5.6
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
> Wort Boil Time: 180 Minutes
> 
> 
> 
> Grain/Extract/Sugar
> 
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 70.0 3.50 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
> 30.0 1.50 kg. Unmalted Wheat Australia 1.036 3
> 
> 
> Hops
> 
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 90.00 g. Aged Hops Whole 0.50 5.6 120 min.
> 
> 
> Yeast
> -----
> 3278 Lambic Blend
> 
> 
> 
> Mash Schedule
> -------------
> 
> Mash Name: Turbid Mash
> 
> Total Grain kg: 5.00
> 
> 
> Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
> Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> step 1 2 10 45 45 Infuse 55 5.00 1.00
> step 2 2 10 59 58 Infuse 99 2.46 1.49
> step 3 2 30 66 65 Infuse 99 2.23 1.94
> step 4 2 20 72 72 Infuse 99 2.88 2.51
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Below i will do a bit of a pictorial story of how i did it. Pictures paint a thousand words
> Note: I have no idea the reason behing the temp rests...... its just what most texts say the big Lambic brewers use so that i went with.
> 
> First up, i filled the HLT (50L) on my mash rig and got it heating to 90 deg c. I was aiming for 22L final brew in the cube.
> 
> I ran the unmalted wheat through the mill twice to get it a bit finer and help pull some fine starches early and improve efficiency. I have no gulls so went with 30% wheat to help myself out.
> 
> Mashed in at 45 deg C @ 1L/Kg. Yep..... its thick!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rest for 10 min and infuse with boiling water to 59 deg C.
> I rested at this temp for 5 min and then pushed my collender into the thick mash.
> I collected 1L of starch liquid, and poured it through a strainer (to collect any solids) into a 10L pot.
> I put this on a 2nd burner and heated it to 85 deg to stop enzyme activity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While it was heating, I also had my next infusion for the mash on a burner coming to the boil. Like i said.... you need to be johny on the spot.
> After about 10 to 15 min at 59 deg C, I Infused up to 66 deg. Rest at this temp for 30 min.
> After the 30 min rest, push the colinder into the mash again and collect about 3.5L of mash liquid. Tip this in with the origional 1L and heat imediatly to 85 deg to stop amy further enzyle activity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the turbid bit is heating, infuse the mash with boiling water to reach 72 deg C. Rest for 20 min.
> 
> After 20 min rest, put 2L of the turbid collected liquid in the kettle, and drained about 3 or 4 liters from the mash into the kettle also. I heated this to about 90 deg.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I then added the rest of the turbid liquid (that was sitting at 85 - 90 deg C) back to the mash and mixed in to get the mash temp to 75 deg. Rest 20 min.
> 
> I then drained to the kettle and sparged with 90 deg water to get enough collected wort in the kettle to require a 3 hour boil.
> 
> I added the aged hops after 20 min of boiling and just let it boil away, reducing the volume by about 30%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cubed and cooling now
> 
> cheers


Good work Tony!
PS where's the coolship photos?


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## Tony

Coolship???.......... mate the air in the hunter valley is not the same as that of Belgium, and especially not in my garage.

My coolship is swelling as i type, and will pitch it during the week.


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## winkle

Looks like we'll have a "Brisbane Brewers Collective" using Hogsheads for Flanders Red Ales in the not too distant future. Fun times ahead  .


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## Tony

nice work Winkle!

My "so called mate" never got back to me so doing it solo.

good luck with it

cheers


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## Damien13

wow... and I thought I was full-on with Lambics... great work on this Tony. think I might copycat it for my next lambic!


----------



## tricache

Far out I want to try one of these bad boys...they sound epic!


----------



## Tony

Another thing i just thought of that could work well in a Lambic is rosewater, and im sure its been done.

Does anyone know of a good source of natural rosewater?


----------



## Tony

Pitched the Lambic blend on Monday, and today (Thursday) at lunch time it was still dead to the world. No foam and my airlock kitten was dead!

Checked it 4 hours later and its off and running with a 1/4 head on the brew..... and the kitten is peddling away.

only about 2 years to go


----------



## vykuza

Nice one!

Now go and buy some geuze, sit back and dream!


----------



## Tony

I have 2 bottles of 2008 Cantilion but i am saving them for my kids 18th birthday.

They are 9 year old twins


----------



## Tony

Well my Lambic and Flanders red have both all but finished fermenting, all but the odd breath from the kitten.

How long before i can expect some nice moldy crust?


----------



## Damien13

Tony where are you fermenting?? Bucket ? Glass? I think it makes a monumental difference as to when you should expect some crustiness


----------



## Tony

Glass.

I presume it will take longer with the low oxygen permeability of the glass.


----------



## Damien13

Yeah, that is what I have found with all three of mine I put down over the last 4 years. The first two, I fermented with an ale yeast then added the lambic blend/dregs/ etc when racking into the glass, with an airlock. Bairly an oil dusty slick on the surface. Both awesome awesome lambics now. The third, I bunged a foil top on for about a fortnight, and got about a millimetre of crustiness straight away. I freaked, and whacked an airlock on and the crustiness has remained. Defo because of the air ingress.
I have serious pellicle envy of peeps who have frigging moon surfaces on their lambics!


----------



## Tony

Yes....... pellicle envy is what i now have as well.

Never thought i would be upset that me brew has not gone moldy 

cheers mate


----------



## tricache

Damn you sour people...I am now going through the Pellicle Photo thread on Homebrewtalk.com :lol:


----------



## Damien13

awesome isn't it!


----------



## tricache

mmmmm Pellicles


----------



## hsb

Planning one for the weekend but most likely just a step-mash as can't accommodate a turbid mash right now.
Could probably do a 50C protein rest, take a litre of that and boil it up as a compromise.
Then ramp straight up to 69C for lots of sugar bug food? Whatdayareckon?

Planning to pitch a lambic blend straight up, into glass.

^ Hot pellicle porn! Looks like a microscope shot, not a 2 foot wide fermenter!


----------



## Tony

hsb.......if you have a read of my post about the turbid mash, its not really any different to a step mash.

You just mash really REALLY thick, remove some of the liquid at points, heating to stop enzyme activity, and adding more water back to the mash to heat to the next step.

also, mashing high for lots of sugars for the bugs to eat is not the point....... its the starch and other byproducts of the turbid mash that the bugs eat..... not so much the sugars.

however, there is no reason why you cant do what you plan. Pull a liter or 2 at the 50 deg rest and heat it to over 80 deg to stop any conversion, and just add this to the kettle as it comes to the boil to get some unconverted starch in there.


----------



## hsb

Thanks Tony, I'll ponder on that.
Am gonna try this with a 2 vessel (+ HERMS) setup I've got at the moment, so inclined to try the latter (starchy early runnings straight to boil) and use the herms to step rather than the traditional remove/add style of stepping. Bit stretched for pots to put it all in right now.
Will stick nearer to your rest temps as well, thanks, that makes more sense.


----------



## petesbrew

Got a Smoked porter with some Brett yeast in it.... bit of an experiment.
Had a taste yesterday after a week.

Smoked Balsamic Vinegar anyone? I'm praying it gets better over time, but currently regretting not bottling half.


----------



## Bizier

Brett shouldn't be acetic. Are you sure it is vinegarish?


----------



## aaronpetersen

I'm pretty sure Brett will produce acetic acid in the presence of oxygen. My last 100% Brett Lambicus beer definitely has a bit of balsamic vinegar aroma and flavour.


----------



## Bizier

The font of all knowledge, Wikipedia, says:
"The yeast is acidogenic, and when grown on glucose rich media produces large amounts of acetic acid."

Well, I will take HP sauce with my humble pie.


----------



## seamad

An Orval type beer i made last year had a fair bit of acetic character at the first tastings from 6-8 months, left it alone awhile and its appeared to have diminshed, or other flavours have dominated it, bit over year now and pretty tasty. That one was wlp510 in primary, then orval dregs added and bottled. The current one was wlp510 again and then transferred to demijohn with orval dregs, no sign of any activity for 4 weeks, checked this arvo and lovely white Camembert pellicle has appeared .
Now just gotta fill up that octave.


----------



## Tony

Ok....... i now have a 3rd glass carboy, and plan a 2nd Lambic, mainly due to the fact that i ordered 2 Wyeast packs of lambic blend by mistake.

I am thinking of making something a bit different and was wondering if anyone has had any "Wild Ideas" (what i plan to name it) on lambic's

A few things i am tossing about in my mind are:

Black lambic
using Rye malt
Black Rye lambic
Rosewater
Honey
Smoked malt

Any thoughts people ?????


----------



## Damien13

hmmm I tend to keep my recipe pretty similar with all my sours. The only changes I make are what fruit I add (ie rasberries, cherries or nothing). THe other thing I have played with is to add a shit load of sour dregs to one, and to the others just see how the wyeast behaves unsullied...
Having said all this... I would love to create something like that billy b's beer/cider thingo... that stuff is frigging gorgeous. So maybe some apples and honey?


----------



## Tony

yeah thats not a bad idea, but im more a fan of strait lambic without fruits.

I was going to split off a 5L carboy of the traditional lambic at Xmas time when fresh cherries are on the shelves, but might split a 2nd one and add some apples and honey.

Keep coming back to Rye for some reason.

Maybe a Red Rye Lambic with wild Hibiscus and Rye malt ??


----------



## Damien13

noice... I am lucky to live near a place called Frozberries who sell frozen pitted sour cherries. Adds a great whack of sour to an already sour lambic... I am not sure if the ripe store cherries will add enough 'umph'. You will need to send me a bottle for me to appraise. Speaking of which, let me know when you are bottling and we can trade a few!
Your buddy in sours,
Damien


----------



## Tony

Sour Cherries you say. Cool, i will lock that one in the memory banks ans start keeping an eye open for them locally.

I must say that the smell coming from the airlock is very promising. Smells like lambic so it must be going well. I added the last mouthful of some Cantillion after a good swirl of the bottle to stir up the dregs.

10 - 4 sour buddy


----------



## Tony

Something i just thought of........Has anyone calculated the amount of sugars (alcahol) that will be added to a lambic per KG of sour cherries?


----------



## Damien13

hmmm interesting. I certainly have not. But at a guess it would be pretty small. Would love to hear an answer on this one!


----------



## Tony

a quick google says they have about 6 to 8% sugar content... so yeah, not much id say


----------



## raven19

Tony said:


> Something i just thought of........Has anyone calculated the amount of sugars (alcahol) that will be added to a lambic per KG of sour cherries?


Nope, but I have 5kg of normal cherries in 20L of lambic atm. Must sample it and see how its travelling...


----------



## Damien13

Raven, I would love to hear about how you find it. I heard that ordinary cherries just don't contribute enough skank-tart compared to the sour cherries. We should do a small lambic swap sometime soon.
I am in Melbourne at the moment and 120 bucks down from getting some different sours. Ah... if only the Goldy had some choice bottle shops!


----------



## Bizier

Here is something I did the other day for what it is worth.

I have a keg of kinda-kriek that is very acidic. It has bright fruit (I used a lot of frozen maraschino cherries) but the lacto load with a bit of aceto is just too aggressive to be palatable.

I found that liquored back, it is an absolutely delicious mid-light strength beer. I have just been diluting with supermarket mineral water at various ratios, but because I used so much cherry, it is still refreshing and drinkable at even the tiniest concentration, plus all that acid has been diluted. At weaker strengths it is more like some kind of cocktail mixer than beer, but it is still a very nice beverage to my dry-biased, acid-biased palate.

Plus you look really tough drinking a bright pink beer.


----------



## Tony

haha would look great at a BBQ with the boys in a tall champagne flute with the little pinkie sticking out 

I have a cube full of a pink beer that was make with wild hibiscus flowers. I have been thinking of pouring it in a fermenter with my last pack of lambic blend but its about 25 - 30 IBU

Anyone have any experience with making lambic thats hoppy and bitter? I used citra 

Oh while i am here...... my flanders red has some funky looking brown skin growing with oily looking big bubbles.

Will take pics later


----------



## neonmeate

Tony said:


> Anyone have any experience with making lambic thats hoppy and bitter? I used citra


yeah i have made a few beers with lots of hops. i don't understand the whole fear of bitterness in sour beers (unless you want to make a berliner). it helps protect from lacto and acetobacter, fades to a nice level by the time the sourness has smoothed out anyway. but i usually use noble hops. i like the combination of bitterness and sourness - some don't. made a 55IBU rye altbier that got infected with pedio from a previous lambic and turned to jelly for a year. when it reliquified it was delicious...


----------



## tazman1967

Im planning a Saison with a sour twist...
Im going to chuck a packet of Wyeast 3763 RoeselarePC on top of a French Saison yeast cake. 
Looking at some fruity American hops, havnt decided yet on the hop profile. Looking for some fruity goodness to shine through.

Cheers


----------



## manticle

Tony said:


> haha would look great at a BBQ with the boys in a tall champagne flute with the little pinkie sticking out
> 
> I have a cube full of a pink beer that was make with wild hibiscus flowers. I have been thinking of pouring it in a fermenter with my last pack of lambic blend but its about 25 - 30 IBU
> 
> Anyone have any experience with making lambic thats hoppy and bitter? I used citra
> 
> Oh while i am here...... my flanders red has some funky looking brown skin growing with oily looking big bubbles.
> 
> Will take pics later


Someone chucked a bretty IPA in a funky case swap a couple of years ago - was superb.


----------



## Bizier

I agree about not being scared of the hops if you are going to make a new style of soured beer. I am not saying that I am good at this, but just think of what flavours will work together, even get commercial/homebrew examples for flavours in front of you, an old Orval for brett brux, stouts, IPAs, sours might be a bit harder if you don't have your own on hand.

If you I was going to age it for a long time though, I would not use loads of late hops, you could dry hop after aging like Cantillon Iris:
http://www.cantillon.be/br/3_108


----------



## Tony

Ok.... here is my plan.

Im planning on selling all my brewing gear soon, im not going to get back into it full time for health reasons, but i do want to still make a couple batches of sour beers (and AIPA's) a year for some fun. and will just bottle them

I am going to put the hibiscus ale in a 15L blue water bottle with a lambic blend, and ferment a Rye IPA i have in a 17L cube that used 300g+ of cascade with some 1272. I really want to try this beer!

When the Rye IPA is done and bottled, im going to put the cube of oak smoked porter i have in the carboy, ferment with 1469 and when its almost done, im gunna pitch some brett and let it sit for 12 months on some oak.

That will give me 4 funkys:

Flanders Red
Lambic
Hibiscus funky thing
Oak smoked oaked sour porter


----------



## Tony

Flanders red has some weird looking brown stuff growing...... with little white puffs here and there


----------



## barls

looks normal to me for a sour


----------



## petesbrew

petesbrew said:


> Got a Smoked porter with some Brett yeast in it.... bit of an experiment.
> Had a taste yesterday after a week.
> 
> Smoked Balsamic Vinegar anyone? I'm praying it gets better over time, but currently regretting not bottling half.


Ended up adding some french oak chips in a bag - bottled it last week and it was tasting quite okay.
Typical me, always getting worried over nothing.
Tony, saw you had something similar planned on your list. Here's my recipe.

Apocalyptic Porter
A ProMash Recipe Report
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (L): 40.00 Wort Size (L): 40.00
Total Grain (kg): 8.09
Anticipated OG: 1.042 Plato: 10.401
Anticipated EBC: 62.8
Anticipated IBU: 29.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.4 1.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.039 3
48.0 3.88 kg. TF Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt UK 1.037 6
4.4 0.36 kg. Crystal 55L Great Britian 1.034 108
7.4 0.60 kg. JWM Chocolate Malt Australia 1.032 750
24.7 2.00 kg. Weyermann Smoked Germany 1.037 4
3.1 0.25 kg. Carafa Special Germany 1.030 1182
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. Northern Brewer Pellet 9.80 25.3 60 min.
20.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.80 2.7 15 min.
20.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.80 1.7 5 min.

Yeast
-----
White Labs WLP013 London Ale


Notes
-----
Batch split between 2 fermenters - different yeasts used WLP013 & S04.
1st batch WLP013 bottled at FG=1008. Smoke flavours medium-mild.
2nd batch added Brett Bruxellensis & 20g French oak chips. Bottled after a month.


----------



## mje1980

How did I miss this thread?!. I have a packet of roselare on the way this week and am keen to do my first sour. Flanders brown for me, though in may split it into 11 litre Demi johns and put one on fruit. I had a boon gueze last night, which was intensely sour.


----------



## rheffera

mje1980 said:


> How did I miss this thread?!. I have a packet of roselare on the way this week and am keen to do my first sour. Flanders brown for me, though in may split it into 11 litre Demi johns and put one on fruit. I had a boon gueze last night, which was intensely sour.


Oddly enough, i too am about to do my first sour, which also happens to be a flanders brown. I'll be using WLP665 - Flemish ale blend. Has Sacc, Brett, Ped and lacto in it, as well as some acidulated malt.


----------



## jefin

Must be sour week 

Planning to put down a Flanders red this Saturday also, going with the Roselare as well.


----------



## mje1980

Awesome stuff, meet here again in 24 months? Haha. Keep us updated guys. What made you all try sours?. I'm trying one because I recently tried rodenbach grand cru and boon kriek. Both excellent IMHO


----------



## jefin

Hi mje

Brewing one up because I love Rodenbach Grand Cru :icon_drool2:

Will keep you posted on progress.

Cheers Jefin


----------



## barls

Wrong time of year to be putting down a sour unless your going to temp control it. 
Rose large tends to become unbalanced with the high temps of summer


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## tazman1967

Yeap I agree with Barls on this one, that why I brew my Sours in Winter..
If it's fermented out and in secondary, then not a problem.
If you want to brew a sour beer, then a Berliner Weisse would be my choice, and great drinking on a hot summers day.


----------



## jefin

Thanks for the advice Barls

Mine will be going into a mates cool room, sits at a constant 18C when not running during summer so should be ok.

Might grab myself a thermostat and hook it up to my spare freezer to be on the safe side.

Cheers Jefin


----------



## mje1980

Cheers guys, I plan on hiding mine somewhere inside the house like the linen cupboard. Even in summer I doubt it'll get hotter than mid 20's. Just gotta convince the wife, but I plan to ask for forgiveness, not permission


----------



## mje1980

Roselare yeast - check

Flanders brown in a cube - check

2 x 11 litre carboys - arriving next week sometime

So next week when the carboys get here I'm going to pitch the roselare into both of them and sit them somewhere inside the house for a year or two haha. Pretty excited!.


----------



## pedleyr

Where'd you get the carboys from?


----------



## Cecil Brai

Lactobacillus in fermentation for about 7 days before adding any if any yeast. I've done a couple with simple grist and high acidulated. Also adding jam and strawberries for flavour and extra sugar will make it sour up.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Hi All,

I posted this over in All Grain but no takers. Then found this thread.

Gearing up to do a Flanders Red. Slurry is from my Funky Saison - Belle Saison with WL Flemish blend. 20% Polenta for the cereal mash.

I have wild brews but the mash schedule on page 143 says to add the boiling cereal mash to raise from 50 to the 63 degree step, then infuse for 72 and 76 degree steps.

I'm thinking the Belle Saison will rip through this and leave little for the bugs.

I know I could do a 68-70 single infusion but I like getting technical with my more special brews.

Thinking I could:
1) get a new vial of flemish or roselare - but I have a fantastic slurry already.
2) use the cereal mash for the 63 to 72 degree infusion step; or
3) add half the cereal mash for the 50 to 63 step and the other half for the 63 to 72 step.

The Funky Saison was quite a dry mash but there was still enough dextrins and starch for it to already be getting a little funky.

I think my preference would be to overshoot and make a beer too sour needing blending with a fresh beer than one which doesnt quite make it.

It will be a 30L batch in a glass demijohn.

Advice/thoughts/suggestions and prevoious experience much welcome.

Cheers, Jaded


----------



## mje1980

I'm pretty new to sour ales but I've read if you use slurry they will be more sour. Option 3 sounds sensible. Beware though, polenta sucks up water and swells like a bitch, although adding grain will make it liquefy pretty good pretty quick.Use a big pot. My recent Flanders brown was just a brown ale pitched with roselare yeast. Think I used raw wheat. Give me 15 months or so and I'll tell you if it is any good haha


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Thanks mje,

yeah leaning that way, I knew I needed some dextrins the belle saison wouldnt gobble up but didnt want to set the bugs loose on 20% of the mash.

I'll do option three.

May even run a heat belt to get the lacto/pedio to really go nuts!


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

well done it and its on the way.

I did do the split cereal additions for the 63 and 72 infusions, but for some reason I didnt think a four step infusion mash wouldnt be a good idea in a new mashtun and undershot the 72 rest which ended up around 68-69. Prolly no diff anyhow. Best smelling wort I've ever made, would defo make a brilliant straight up belgian ale.

I had a bit of a think about the slurry and realised the lactobaccillus in the slurry may be lacking due to the high IBU's of the previous brew. I pitched a WYeast lacto 48 hours before the slurry. When pitching the slurry I had a peek and a sniff. The surface was covered in small bubbles and it smelt odd - not bad. I cant put my finger on it but kinda like tinned crab meat. Not smoky etc.

Anyone got any comments on pure lacto ferment stage? It didnt look or smell bad, looked fine actually, but there aint much info on the web and I'm getting more interested.


----------



## Kranky

Jaded and Bitter said:


> Anyone got any comments on pure lacto ferment stage? It didnt look or smell bad, looked fine actually, but there aint much info on the web and I'm getting more interested.


I brewed a pure lacto beer in summer. I mashed at 72C, chilled it to 40C and sat it at about 34C for a week before putting the beer in my fermenting room. It's still not sour so I assume it will take about 6 months before it starts to get tart. I'll let you know how it progresses.

If you want to make a sour beer in a hurry I'd suggest trying the White Labs American Farmhouse blend. Mash and ferment high. A simple malt bill is fine. I've had it ready to drink in 6 weeks and it goes well with fruit.

http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp670-american-farmhouse-blend


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Thanks Kranky,

Not in a hurry but defo been bit by the sour bug (pun intended).

This beers intended for spring, possible blending with brunes and browns left over from winter in the glass.

I remembered today what sour mashes looked like from many years ago and feel kinda confident it was a normal lacto ferment.


----------



## Tony

Im planning to bottle my Flanders Red soon, its been fermenting for over a year.

NOw to work oout how to get it out of the glass carboy....... not something i have done before


----------



## manticle

auto siphon and possibly some swearing


----------



## Tony

Pfffft.......... not technical enough!


----------



## manticle

Make your autosiphon out of some meccano and swear in code?


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Auto siphon jerry rigged to a bottling cane.

need to get the siphon flowing before hooking to the cane.


----------



## mje1980

My Flanders ale is now around 6 months. It is split into 2 11 litre glass carboys. I've also got some funky oak chips that have been exposed to brett b and also a few different types of lambic dregs. I'd like to add these to one of the carboys. Would 6 months be too long in contact with the beer?. Once they go in, they ain't coming out til I bottle. They sat in a plastic fermentor for 3 months in a porter with no probs. 

Thoughts??


----------



## manticle

When I did my sours, oak and anything/everything else (from citrus zest to fruit pulp to vanilla bean) went into a stocking or hop bag and stayed there till bottling time which was 12+ months.


----------



## mje1980

Awesome mate, they're going in!!


----------



## Boozed

American Sour Beers by Michael Tonsmeire (the mad fermentationist) arrived in the post from the US yesterday. I obviously haven't read it yet but flicking through it, it looks fantastic!


----------



## mje1980

Sweet, where did you buy it from?


----------



## Boozed

Amazon. Had it pre ordered in February and it has just been released. About $15 from memory plus postage.


----------



## tazman1967

Cool, going to order this next week.
I have been following his page for ages, and email him with questions. He always emails back with great advice.


----------



## Boozed

If you haven't read it already make sure to order Wild Brews by Jeff Sparrow (brewers publications). Another cracker and the book that really got me hooked on the sours


----------



## mje1980

Got it already


----------



## Boozed

We need a dedicated Sour Beer forum (is there one?) but in the mean time this will have to do! Attached is my latest experiment into the world of sour beers. From left to right and all inoculated with wyeast roselare:
1. A smoked and spiced pumpkin ale;
2. Rum barrel aged Russian Imperial Stout;
3. Smoked Porter;
4. Saison.
I intend to decant 5 litres of each brew I make into a demijohn and inoculate with differing blends of bugs and or Brett and record the results. I'm quite interested in how the stout turns out as is is heavily hopped - not a generally favourable environment for bugs. Anyway I'll post the results in 6 - 12 months.


----------



## mje1980

I have a nice spider web like pellicle forming on the too of my latest brett porter. I've added some orval dregs to it as well. Got some boon Kriek and a gueze on the way, and the dregs of those will go in as well. Love boon Kriek.


A bit like this


----------



## indica86

You people are weird.
Having not ever had a sour beer will Dan's in Cairns have anything? Doubtful but I'd like to try one of these.


----------



## barls

quick answer no they wont.


----------



## mje1980

One of the online beer stores like beercartel will sort you out. Be warned though, they aren't cheap, and they are seriously good beers. 

The blue cheese of the beer world.


Rodenbach grand cru is a good one, it's pasteurised and pretty cheap. If you can drink the whole thing and appreciate the flavours, you'll probably enjoy other sour beers.


----------



## rehabs_for_quitters

once you go sour you'll never look back, I'd definitely go Rodenbach as a starter as some of the others like timmermans are back sweetened and really not that good to my tastes,

I am trying to convince the wife that getting two chest freezers big enough to fit a 228L wine barrel in each is the way to go so I can have a couple of perpetual sours going, trying the out of site out of mind theory


----------



## Martrix

went into Dans in Ringwood today. None of them had any idea what a sour even was ha.


----------



## indica86

Thanks guys, I'll get around to ordering sometime and let you know what I think.


----------



## Martrix

Purvis Cellars  for sour/lambic beer heaven. Best selection of worldwide beers I have ever seen, Australian included. Could have walked out with a trolley full of beers I've never tasted. They had all the sours that Beer Deluxe have...cough, ahem at half the price too. Picked up a bunch of Lindemans sours and a Gueze which should be interesting, along with some Fancy pants and some Yeastie boys.....gonna be a fun weekend.
Do yourself a favour and drop in if your passing through Surrey HIlls.


----------



## Donske

Martrix said:


> Purvis Cellars  for sour/lambic beer heaven. Best selection of worldwide beers I have ever seen, Australian included. Could have walked out with a trolley full of beers I've never tasted. They had all the sours that Beer Deluxe have...cough, ahem at half the price too. Picked up a bunch of Lindemans sours and a Gueze which should be interesting, along with some Fancy pants and some Yeastie boys.....gonna be a fun weekend.
> Do yourself a favour and drop in if your passing through Surrey HIlls.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20140702_223423.jpg



The Lindemans Cuvee Rene Kreik is a great beer mate, enjoy it, I prefer their Cuvee Rene Gueze more personally, but it's a close call.


----------



## Tony

Hey folks

I was in my garage yesterday reloading some ammo for my new/old hobby, when i heard a farmilliar "BLOOP"

I then remembered the Lambic and Flanders red i put down in March 2013. Looks like they are still bubbling in my sub 17 deg garage and still have a funky mouldy layer on them after 16 months

Im thinking i would like to bottle the flanders in the next month or so.

Now in assuming there will be fark all yeast left in there so it may be a good idea to hit it with some fresh yeast.

My questions for those who have done this before......

Whats the best way to get it out of the demijon?
Should i add some fresh yeast........ im thinking some dreggs from a few fresh murrays bottles
Where can i get plastic champeign corks and cages?

Appreciate your help folks 

Cheers


----------



## manticle

Autosiphon. I always add fresh yeast. Anything that isn't high abv seems to do ok with a touch of 05.
No idea about champers bits


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Hey Tony,

You can get champers size crown seals and an extra size bell for your capper from most HB shops. Also plastic corks and cages although I've never used them

When I bottle from the demijohn I use carbonation drops and jerry rig an auto syphon to a bottling cane. Only problems priming the syphon, dont work with the small cane opening so you either have to prime with it disconected and get your sour brew all about like I do, or you could put a t-piece in line with the silicon line with an irrigation tap you can open for priming like I should do.

although dunno how youd get your fresh yeast in this way, bulk prime I guess though brett will eat sugar.

Reducer, tees and line all come from the irrigation section at bunnings.

show us a pick of how it turns out at bottling - youve been teasing us with stories of this special brew every few months. :icon_drool2:


----------



## Tony

Then to just work out the right amount of priming sugar to get the fiz right


----------



## Tony

I will take some pics of the fermenters....... nothing special but fun non the less.

I had a bit of a go at getting the white plastic plug out of the top of the demi but it wont budge. Im going to have to make a hook that goes in the airlock hole and pulls up from the bottom from some SS rod.

Im looking forward to see what those french oak chips have done over almost 1.5 years


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

nice.

reminds me I'm due to give the fanders red a sniff, not now though - its 5 degrees out there now.


----------



## mje1980

I got my plastic champagne stoppers and cages from brewcraft sa. Hard to find, but worth it I reckon, not as fancy as cork but so easy and reliable. 

I have a 7 month old Flanders brown in a few glass carboys. I took the airlock off not long ago to add some pre funked oak chips and it smelt divine. Yum.


----------



## Beerbuoy

About to have my first crack at a sour. Having never tried a sour beer before I'm hesitant to spend up on a glass fermenter. I have some Wyeast Oud Bruin on the way and am planning on using Jamils recipe from brewing classic styles. 

Couple of noob questions for the sour brewers out there.

I'm assuming with the wyeast Oud Bruin I still need to start out with a neutral yeast then add the bugs after a few days same as for Roselare or can the Oud Bruin be pitched as a primary ferment? Can't find any info on the wyeast site except that the oud bruin blend will leave the malt flavour intact unlike roselare.

In brewing classic styles JZ suggests fermenting for a month then transferring to a keg for ageing. Could I ferment for a month in plastic then transfer to the keg? This would save me having to buy a glass fermenter. Not worried about getting bugs in my plastic fermenter as its one I don't use anyway.

Cheers


----------



## Kranky

I don't know why anyone would use a neutral ale yeast with Roselare, if it's not broke don't fix it. Leaving the beer for a month in plastic and then transferring it to a keg to age is fine. Just make sure you have a sound seal on the keg when you keg it, you don't want a leak and oxygen getting in. I age a lot of beer in kegs and I put the gas on them every second month or so to make sure they haven't leaked, and to have a taste and see how they are going. Try not to move the keg as it will likely have a a pelical at the top. You can oak it with chips in the keg too but be careful how much you use, you don't want to overdo it.

When the beer is ready there will likely be some gunk at the bottom of the keg so when you move it, it kicks up and needs a bit of time to settle. You can either transfer the beer to another keg and kill the transfer when the line starts to look murky or just make sure you don't move the keg once it's in your fridge (usually not a problem but sometimes you move kegs around when you swap them over.)


----------



## mje1980

I didn't want to spend the cash on glass carboys, but considering the beer needs a minimum of 12 months in the fermentor, I didn't want to wait all that time and have a crazy sour beer. Too long in plastic let's oxygen in, and the beer can go south. 

My first sour is 7 months old in the carboys now ( oud bruin ), and not long ago I added some oak chips. It smelt amazing. Hard to be patient, but you need to be with sour beers. 

Good luck with it mate. At worst, rodenbach is pretty cheap to buy


----------



## barls

i call bullshit, ive got a sour in a plastic bucket and its over a year not too much vinegar in there


----------



## mje1980

Ah bugger then, didn't really need the glass . I leave my brett beers in plastic for a few months without worry, but read a lot about long term and plastic being bad. 

They look pretty though .


----------



## barls

also the one i won club night with a few years ago was in one of those plastic water bottles for 7 months


----------



## vykuza

I do mine in corny kegs - not the cheapest, but I can control oxygen access, they get no light, and it's easy to rekeg/rack when they're done.

My big "solero" sour is in (legal) 50L keg, I remove half to bottle or keg, then top it up with fresh beer every 6 months or so.


----------



## barls

ill bring the one thats been in plastic to anhc you can try it.


----------



## vykuza

That would be awesome :icon_drool2:


----------



## barls

just about to keg it mate so it may happen. as always i taste about a week before and see if it needs longer.


----------



## Boozed

Beerbuoy said:


> About to have my first crack at a sour. Having never tried a sour beer before I'm hesitant to spend up on a glass fermenter. I have some Wyeast Oud Bruin on the way and am planning on using Jamils recipe from brewing classic styles.
> 
> Couple of noob questions for the sour brewers out there.
> 
> I'm assuming with the wyeast Oud Bruin I still need to start out with a neutral yeast then add the bugs after a few days same as for Roselare or can the Oud Bruin be pitched as a primary ferment? Can't find any info on the wyeast site except that the oud bruin blend will leave the malt flavour intact unlike roselare.
> 
> In brewing classic styles JZ suggests fermenting for a month then transferring to a keg for ageing. Could I ferment for a month in plastic then transfer to the keg? This would save me having to buy a glass fermenter. Not worried about getting bugs in my plastic fermenter as its one I don't use anyway.
> 
> Cheers


Mate for what it's worth, my first sour was an ANZAC ale that I had designed years ago that didn't work out. It was too sweet, had way too much spec malt, too much of everything really. Barely drinkable, I toyed with the idea of dumping it but instead decanted it into a glass carboy any dropped a roselare pouch in. 

9 months on the bugs then an additional 4 months on 2kg of raspberries and it became a bloody good drink. The bugs cut through the dextrines and dried it out nicely. the excess dextrines from the original brew gave the Brett something to munch on over time resulting in a very drinkable sour raspberry.

Obviously souring a beer that was designed to be sour is preferred but this is just a example of how, in this case, bugs made a shit beer drinkable!!


----------



## manticle

barls said:


> i call bullshit, ive got a sour in a plastic bucket and its over a year not too much vinegar in there


Like many things, it's peace of mind. I've aged sours in glass and plastic. Re-using bug blends like roeselare can see one or another bug dominate, given the right conditions. Certainly my third batch on the same yeast was as close to the acetic line as I personally enjoy - any more and it would be dressing rocket/ pear salad.
Glass reduces oxygen with no doubt whatsoever but whether plastic will increase aceto to unacceptable levels is entirely up to conditions, circumstances and palate. Glass is a safeguard - nothing more or less.


----------



## Beerbuoy

Thanks for the replies fellas.

I'll ferment in plastic for a month then rack to a corny.

I like the idea of being able to easily take samples from the corny as its my first sour I'll be keen to see how it changes over time.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Just had a quick look at wild brews, parently Oud Bruin is the "quickest" to make. Maybe try for ~2-3 months raised to the wyeast recomended 26-29 degrees and see hows it traveling. If you wanna leave longer consider racking to a HDPE bottle or glass.

From what I've read oud bruin is Lacto driven, which is a faster performer. though have done no oudsbruins myself.


----------



## Danwood

Just jumping in here...'scuse me...*shove shove*.....

How would Orval dregs go in a 5l carboy of WLP 007 RIS ?

I had a pint of Bacchus Shirraz RIS recently and it's inspired me. I have some french oak staves sitting in shirraz right now waiting for primary to finish.
Some 'sour' to kick the cherry/shirraz into high gear would be great, I think. I have almost 50l of RIS, so an experiment is called for.

The 007 should finish at 9-10% abv. Would the Orval strain be ok with this ? 

Suggestions for other bottle dregs are welcomed. I have a couple of mead carboys empty, so two experiments would be interesting.


----------



## vykuza

It won't end up sour, but will end up funky and super dry. Left long enough, the Orval strain will go right through it!


----------



## mje1980

Orval dregs are great for funking up beers. You can swirl the dregs and add to individual bottles if you don't want to funk up a fermentor. Make sure it's finished fermenting and drink within a few months. I've done this a few times with great results


----------



## Danwood

I'll admit I'm not well versed on sours and the like (certainly not recipes and processes anyway), despite having been to Belgium a couple of times and also Cantillion brewery.

The face-puckering sours at Cantillion were a bit much for me.

I do like Rodenbach though. If something like that could be worked in with the shirraz/cherry flavour, I'd be happy. 

I think I'll do an Orval edition, just to educate myself. Any other suggestions for secondary fermentations ?


----------



## Danwood

mje1980 said:


> Orval dregs are great for funking up beers. You can swirl the dregs and add to individual bottles if you don't want to funk up a fermentor. Make sure it's finished fermenting and drink within a few months. I've done this a few times with great results


I assume adding to individual bottles would be sufficient to give a light carbonation ? No need for a touch of dextrose ?


----------



## Kranky

Jaded and Bitter said:


> Just had a quick look at wild brews, parently Oud Bruin is the "quickest" to make. Maybe try for ~2-3 months raised to the wyeast recomended 26-29 degrees and see hows it traveling. If you wanna leave longer consider racking to a HDPE bottle or glass.
> 
> From what I've read oud bruin is Lacto driven, which is a faster performer. though have done no oudsbruins myself.


There's a number of things you try if you want to make a sour beer more quickly and fermenting at those higher temperatures is one of them. You could make a Flanders Red and ferment it in 8 weeks. It works but the beer will lack the complexity of a beer that is fermented between 18-21C and left for a year or 18 months. They may be a bit rougher around the edges too (not all the time in my experience). Adding fruit can smooth them out, as can a bit of oak. 

If you want a really good sour though you just have to be patient. The Brett, lactobacillus and pediococcus all need time to work.

Two other things you can try for a faster sour:
* Mash at a higher temperature (eg 72) so there are more longer chain sugars in your beer. The yeast wont be able to eat them but the bacteria bugs will.
* Pitch lactobacillus into a wort at around 35-40C, ferment at that temp for a few days then drop the temperature down and drop in a regular ale yeast.

As for leaving beer in plastic long term - I've have sour beers in plastic for 6 months without issue. I've had other beers in plastic for 4-5 months that I thought did oxygenate. Raj Apte, an engineer with xerox, did some research with regard to oxygen interaction with various brewing vessles, including plastic, glass, oak barrels and foudres. If you're really interested in looking into it track down his research (sorry, I can't be arsed) and read up on it. It's probably quiet reliable.


----------



## mje1980

Danwood said:


> I assume adding to individual bottles would be sufficient to give a light carbonation ? No need for a touch of dextrose ?


It's tricky, because brett will eat just about everything in time, so yeah, you can not add extra sugar, and try a bottle every few months. I added a small amount of priming sugar, but that was with a saison, which finished at 1.002 or something silly, so there wasn't much left for brett to eat, and I drank them within a few months. It worked quite well. 

I also did a beire de garde, which, again, ended at 1.005 so I wasn't too worried about excess carb, however I bottled into champagne bottles just to be safe. That beer I added to a 10litre fermentor with orval and lambic dregs, and left for 3 months. Bottled at very low fg. That turned out sensational, big cherry aroma, and funky fruity dry flavour, and the bottles opened with a nice pop! Was a hit at a few club days. I may actually have one left somewhere.


----------



## mje1980

Yep, found the last one, it's in the fridge now. Dry July sucks


----------



## Danwood

Without looking at the RIS notes, I think it should finish at 1025 ish.

There'll be a fair bit of dextrinous stuff left after 007 has been through, so I won't leave any spiked bottles for too long or I'll get bombs.
As mentioned, more aging would probably be better, but this seems like a good starting point.


----------



## mje1980

Yeah, just try one every few weeks, it does work slowly. That's a lot of food for the brett , so just be careful and don't leave them too long. I reckon that beer would be worth a 10 litre bunnings fermentor and a few months though.

Yeah patience is a must with funky and or sours.


----------



## Danwood

I was just reading on the Wyeast site that Ped. and Lacto. strains are sensitive to IBUs over 10.

My RIS is obviously WAY over that...will they still be happy ?

And can someone recommend a commercial sour with salvageable lactic yeast ? Maybe a Flanders or Oud Bruin ?

I've never tried either, but I think they fit the bill ? Correct me if not. 

Cheers.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

If you want quickish sour I think you need lacto brevis, its a PC atm also.

L. Brevis is hop tolerant.

Dunno if the PC oud bruin blend has L.Brevis, though bruins typically have IBU's round 20, maybe send them an email and let us all know.

maybe go the more traditional brett RIS secondary


----------



## vykuza

Hops won't stop them dead, but will inhibit them somewhat. J&B is right with Lacto. Brevis - it's more hop tolerant (and available all year around with White Labs WLP672). Also produces more lactic acid than L. delbrueckii

I can't think of a beer that will get you just lacto - it's nearly always in combo with Brett. Maybe a Gose or Berlinner Weisse.

You could always try pitching some lacto from yoghurt... depends on how brave you're feeling!


----------



## Danwood

Not that brave.

I think I'll do 5L with 2 orval bottle dregs and 5L with 2 boon kriek dregs.

I'll report back with findings.

Thanks for the suggestions btw !


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Gonna give this a kick

My Flanders reds smelling nice, bout 5 months old.

Per wild brews thinking of brewing a 'fresh' red for blending in summer. Maybe with 1/3 of the by then 9-10 month old, then keep rest for blending next year an, plus some of the fresh beer.

So this summers beer would be 2/3 fresh sour and 1/3 aged. Next year would be a blend of fresh, 1 year and 2 year etc.

Not gonna start a solera.

Thoughts?


----------



## Josh

Jaded and Bitter said:


> Gonna give this a kick
> 
> My Flanders reds smelling nice, bout 5 months old.
> 
> Per wild brews thinking of brewing a 'fresh' red for blending in summer. Maybe with 1/3 of the by then 9-10 month old, then keep rest for blending next year an, plus some of the fresh beer.
> 
> So this summers beer would be 2/3 fresh sour and 1/3 aged. Next year would be a blend of fresh, 1 year and 2 year etc.
> 
> Not gonna start a solera.
> 
> Thoughts?


Good idea. I just kegged a full keg of Flanders Red minus two bottles for comps + Oak Cubes.

Thinking I could do another Flanders Red and blend in 6-12 months. The trick will be keeping this keg that long. If it does well in the State comp I'll probably just bring the keg to Club Night at ANHC4.


----------



## fattox

Tony said:


> Im also interested in the process to make a good lambic. The Berliner Weisse was great and has sparked a want to make somethiing a bit more complex.
> 
> With my current long term dry spell, it will also be a bit of fun to watch it rot and have it getting close to bottle in 2014.
> 
> I have a couple EKG plugs pulled apart and "aging" for it.
> 
> Any tips from sour beer pro's out there much appreciated!
> 
> Cheers


I'm not sure of his username on here but Anthony at Toowoomba Home Brewers does a mean sour, he usually has several in various stages from what I understand. I know the store has an account here anyway so you could probably contact him via there. I know he does a lot of sour/wild ales so he would definitely be one to talk to. Also BenKen25 (I think) our local club president does a pretty good Saison so could be another one to get onto. I think he won a comp with that saison recently actually, it's a dark myrtle saison. Very nice beer too


----------



## fattox

Nick R said:


> Hops won't stop them dead, but will inhibit them somewhat. J&B is right with Lacto. Brevis - it's more hop tolerant (and available all year around with White Labs WLP672). Also produces more lactic acid than L. delbrueckii
> 
> I can't think of a beer that will get you just lacto - it's nearly always in combo with Brett. Maybe a Gose or Berlinner Weisse.
> 
> You could always try pitching some lacto from yoghurt... depends on how brave you're feeling!


+1 - you want like 5-8 IBU max of hops in a sour, things like Pedio/Lacto/Brett don't seem to like them as much as Saccharomyces. If you look at this (another one of Anthony's great finds) interview with Jess Caudill of Wyeast, it explains a big thing about sour beers and hop presence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hClp9huB1M


----------



## Tony

I have not brewed since i made the lambic and Falnders Red listed a few pages back

I was in my garage today doing some stuff, as you do in a garage, when i heard a farmiliar sound from long ago.........

"Bloop"

I had forgoten the bloody things existed. Both were pushed un a corner and has stuff piled up over them. Both still have a nice layer of mouldy looking crap on the surface and smell amazing from the airlock.

I'm gunna look at ordering some cages to hold the corks in the bottles i have collected, and might pitch a bit of fresh US-05 to carb them up.

Any suggestions on a better yeast to use for bottle fermentation?


----------



## barls

mate,
dont bother with fresh yeast they are sours. they will carb.


----------



## Tony

Copy that!


----------



## Tony

Oh...... speaking of sour beers, I found a 27 month old wyeast pack of berlinner weisse stached in the top shelf of the drinks fridge.

I smacked it this morning for shits and giggles and its swelling 

Gunna order some pils and wheat and do my first brew in almost 2 years


----------



## mje1980

Hey guys, I'm doing a no boil weisse. After a few days in the BIAB keggle ( gunna pitch a smack pack of lacto ), I then plan on boiling, cubing, and once cooled, finishing with standard yeast. 

Which one should I use?. Ideally I'd love to use 1007 German ale, but I don't have any. I do have a sachet of notto, but I hate notto, so was thinking of either ordering the German ale, or just going down the road and grabbing some US05. What do you guys reckon??.


----------



## tazman1967

The US05, would be fine, you only need it to get things started,
Pitch, then 2-3 days later put your sour bugs in.


----------



## mje1980

I'm doing it the other way. I'm pitching lacto in the keggle ( after it's cooled overnight ). Then after a few days when it tastes "tangy" enough, I'll pull the bag out and boil it to kill the lacto. Then cube and ferment as normal. I've seen it mentioned a few times, Nick R I believe has done it. I'll just use the US05 then, cheers mate. 


I like this idea because I don't have to worry about funking up my fermentors. I do have some funky fermentors but they're all full haha. 

Will update


----------



## tazman1967

LOL, all good,
I usually use the German Ale for 2-3 days then add the funk.


----------



## mje1980

Do you then leave it for a few months before bottling?.


----------



## tazman1967

Yeah, im lazy, I leave it for 3 months.
Sours cant be rushed, just taste test, when its sour enough for you then bottle.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

mje1980 said:


> Hey guys, I'm doing a no boil weisse. After a few days in the BIAB keggle ( gunna pitch a smack pack of lacto ), I then plan on boiling, cubing, and once cooled, finishing with standard yeast.
> 
> Which one should I use?. Ideally I'd love to use 1007 German ale, but I don't have any. I do have a sachet of notto, but I hate notto, so was thinking of either ordering the German ale, or just going down the road and grabbing some US05. What do you guys reckon??.


I've got to admit I've never tried this, but I do have a couple of comments/suggestions for discussion only.

Which Lacto culture do you have? 'parently WYeast Lacto strain is hetero fermentive, meaning by itself it may not produce Lacto, 'specially without yeast to use up oxygen.

In the no boil I worry about the 'barf smell' bugs, which aint lacto. Its the stuff which grows before lacto kicks its butt.

You could boil as per usual, cool, pitch Lacto and let breed for a few days then pitch the yeast and as suggested leave until you like the flavour profile. if it aint souring quick enough put a brew belt on at like 30 degrees.

Personally Id just use a normal fermentor if only using lacto (unless brevis), its everywhere and were always keeping it in check with standard brewing hygiene.

But as well people have reported good results with the no boil method, and ive never tried it, so really my comments are academic. :beer:


----------



## tiprya

Ok guys, I have a good problem.

I pitched some roselare dregs (only) on a small wort (1.046) hoping for a quickish 'table sour'.

Well it worked too well! After 6 weeks it is super sour - 3.00pH! Nicely lactic, no acetic to my palate. Down to 1.010.

Thinking because it is so acidic I should blend it with another beer - what do you guys reckon? I guess I can leave it and see how it develops initially. I'm afraid bottling it now will be too soon, as I expect it to attenuate a bit more over time.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

tiprya said:


> Ok guys, I have a good problem.
> 
> I pitched some roselare dregs (only) on a small wort (1.046) hoping for a quickish 'table sour'.
> 
> Well it worked too well! After 6 weeks it is super sour - 3.00pH! Nicely lactic, no acetic to my palate. Down to 1.010.
> 
> Thinking because it is so acidic I should blend it with another beer - what do you guys reckon? I guess I can leave it and see how it develops initially. I'm afraid bottling it now will be too soon, as I expect it to attenuate a bit more over time.


Let it sit and develop flavour complexity or bottle in coopers king browns or champers bottles with standard carbonation priming and blend in the glass with a nice belgium brune or dubbel - delicious blend.

coopers king browns and champer bottles can handle like 3 times normal carbonation levels, so even if brett chew up the last few points It will likely not bust the bottle or be too carbonated.


----------



## mje1980

Jaded and Bitter said:


> I've got to admit I've never tried this, but I do have a couple of comments/suggestions for discussion only.
> 
> Which Lacto culture do you have? 'parently WYeast Lacto strain is hetero fermentive, meaning by itself it may not produce Lacto, 'specially without yeast to use up oxygen.
> 
> In the no boil I worry about the 'barf smell' bugs, which aint lacto. Its the stuff which grows before lacto kicks its butt.
> 
> You could boil as per usual, cool, pitch Lacto and let breed for a few days then pitch the yeast and as suggested leave until you like the flavour profile. if it aint souring quick enough put a brew belt on at like 30 degrees.
> 
> Personally Id just use a normal fermentor if only using lacto (unless brevis), its everywhere and were always keeping it in check with standard brewing hygiene.
> 
> But as well people have reported good results with the no boil method, and ive never tried it, so really my comments are academic. :beer:


Wyeast 5335. I got it up to 85c and turned the gas off, apparently this will pasteurise the wort. Then, this morning I pitched the lacto, with the wort ( and grains ) at 34c. Tonight when I got home I put the heat belt on, so it should sit around 35 comfortably. I'll taste it fri morning and see if it's tangy enough. Once it is, I'll pull the bag then boil and cube as normal. I'm sure I've read of people doing it this way ( maybe homebrewtalk? ). I hope I wasn't dreaming haha. 

Doesn't smell at all after 12 hours. Hopefully a good sign.


----------



## mje1980

Jaded and Bitter said:


> Let it sit and develop flavour complexity or bottle in coopers king browns or champers bottles with standard carbonation priming and blend in the glass with a nice belgium brune or dubbel - delicious blend.
> 
> coopers king browns and champer bottles can handle like 3 times normal carbonation levels, so even if brett chew up the last few points It will likely not bust the bottle or be too carbonated.


I love champagne bottles. Especially Belgians, and funky beers. Love to hear the pop!!


----------



## vykuza

Looks good mje! Power on through the hot sick phase and it will sweeten up again. I used BRY-97 in my current batch (which is now ready for kegging for half of it, and fruit for the other half). Any neutral yeast will work, but the plainer the better, as there's no hops to hide behind. 

Jaded and Bitter - I've not been game to go full no boil, so this is my compromise that mje's using. Pitch lacto in the mash for a quicker sour mash, then quick boil to kill everything and a sacc ferment to finish it off. It's ready as soon as the sacc finishes.

I might do another one soon, but hit APA strength and hop it up properly in the boil. A Sour Pale Ale (SPA?). I think some Nelson would go well with that, though it might end up being a beer version of NZ sauv blanc.


----------



## Danwood

Have a look for Garage Project's Sauvin Nouveau, Nick.

That'd be quite close what you just described...minus the sour aspect.


----------



## mje1980

Nick R said:


> Looks good mje! Power on through the hot sick phase and it will sweeten up again. I used BRY-97 in my current batch (which is now ready for kegging for half of it, and fruit for the other half). Any neutral yeast will work, but the plainer the better, as there's no hops to hide behind.
> 
> Jaded and Bitter - I've not been game to go full no boil, so this is my compromise that mje's using. Pitch lacto in the mash for a quicker sour mash, then quick boil to kill everything and a sacc ferment to finish it off. It's ready as soon as the sacc finishes.
> 
> I might do another one soon, but hit APA strength and hop it up properly in the boil. A Sour Pale Ale (SPA?). I think some Nelson would go well with that, though it might end up being a beer version of NZ sauv blanc.



Do you bottle or keg?. I'd normally prefer to bottle but this beer could work quite well in the keg I guess. I have some apricot and also peach extract from Ross. I think it'd work well in it if I find it too sour.


----------



## AJ80

For what it's worth I've just tried my first one of these and it was fermented at 16C with notto to keep the yeast out of the road. Very very happy with this beer - tart and refreshing. Just the right amount of sourness and the low OG will make this one perfect for a summer afternoon. Will be brewing again. 

I went down the kettle souring path and used 500g of uncracked pils malt to introduce the lacto for 48 hours before a 30min boil.


----------



## seamad

AJ80 said:


> For what it's worth I've just tried my first one of these and it was fermented at 16C with notto to keep the yeast out of the road. Very very happy with this beer - tart and refreshing. Just the right amount of sourness and the low OG will make this one perfect for a summer afternoon. Will be brewing again.
> 
> I went down the kettle souring path and used 500g of uncracked pils malt to introduce the lacto for 48 hours before a 30min boil.


So no lacto culture, just wild ?


----------



## Josh

mje1980 said:


> Hey guys, I'm doing a no boil weisse. After a few days in the BIAB keggle ( gunna pitch a smack pack of lacto ), I then plan on boiling, cubing, and once cooled, finishing with standard yeast.
> 
> Which one should I use?. Ideally I'd love to use 1007 German ale, but I don't have any. I do have a sachet of notto, but I hate notto, so was thinking of either ordering the German ale, or just going down the road and grabbing some US05. What do you guys reckon??.


Saw a talk at ANHC 2010 from Jess from Wyeast. Through their testing they came up with the following as the best Berliner Weisse strategy.
Ferment with Lacto for 2-3 days
Add 1007 German Ale for primary fermentation
Add Brett at bottling

I've done the first two with great success. Haven't bothered with Brett at bottling though.


----------



## Josh

Josh said:


> Good idea. I just kegged a full keg of Flanders Red minus two bottles for comps + Oak Cubes.
> 
> Thinking I could do another Flanders Red and blend in 6-12 months. The trick will be keeping this keg that long. If it does well in the State comp I'll probably just bring the keg to Club Night at ANHC4.


My Flanders came 2nd at the Castle Hill/NSW Comp. I've bottled a bit from the keg already, so I might just bottle the rest and bring it to ANHC4.

Or blend it with a lambic that is a little light on for sourness. Blend tastes pretty good actually.


----------



## vykuza

mje1980 said:


> Do you bottle or keg?. I'd normally prefer to bottle but this beer could work quite well in the keg I guess. I have some apricot and also peach extract from Ross. I think it'd work well in it if I find it too sour.



I keg, and this is a great beer for kegging in hot weather. Nice and cold, low alc, super refreshing and spritzy. Fizzy drink for grownups, especially with a splash of raspberry or lime in it.


----------



## AJ80

seamad said:


> So no lacto culture, just wild ?


Yep, wild. Not sure what other bugs got a look in while souring, but the lacto is certainly present in the finished product.


----------



## mje1980

Mine now has a nice white film and a sourish smell. Not over the top, and not vomity, which I think is good . I'll check it tomorrow morning and maybe even risk a taste


----------



## mje1980

Hmm, my heat belt is only getting the keggle to 25. Turned the gas on and got it to 35, and added foam insulation. Taste is bready and sweet/vomit haha, not very sour, which I think is temp related. I'm going away on Sunday so tomorrow morning is the latest I can leave it so whatever happens tomorrow morning I'll be boiling and cubing ( I'm night shift so I'll be sleeping most of tomorrow so needs to be done in the morning ). 

It does smell funky and sour when you out your nose in the keggle and have a good deep whiff . 



I am really really really not looking forward to lifting the bag and emptying and cleaning it. I'll give it a good boil in a stockpot for 20 mins or so. If it's really bad I'll keep it purely for BW and get a newy.


----------



## seamad

Looked up the brew date for an Orval beer that has been dwelling in the cellar for awhile ( 1 year and 10 months in fact ) so it's in the fridge now to chill down before I keg or bottle it. Smells effing awesome if I say so ( and the missus agreed too, looks like I'll have to share it.


----------



## seamad

Here is a better picture of the pellicle


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

ooh nice pellicle.

My flanders red hadnt developed one last time I checked although the aroma has been developing nicely, think i'll take a sample with the wine thief tomorrow.


----------



## mje1980

I've had a Flanders brown in glass since November that has no pellicle. Though I have very little head space and I use silicon stoppers and airlocks.


----------



## jefin

mje1980 said:


> I've had a Flanders brown in glass since November that has no pellicle. Though I have very little head space and I use silicon stoppers and airlocks.


Hi MJE

I'm the same put my Flanders Red down at the same time as yours (back @ page 5!) and it has no pellicle. Same situation though very little head space and silicone stopper etc.

Haven't had a taste yet but smells fantastic.

Cheers Jefin


----------



## barls

sometimes i do sometime i don't get a pelical. my lambic that won new state comp didn't but subsequent batches did.
actually have the rest of it just went in the fridge as a raspberry lambic.
all it has in it is brett lambis and dregs of a bottle of previous.
hmm can't wait for anhc to bust this one out.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Mine has plenty of head space and oxygen from stopper removals and sniffing, so guess its normal.


----------



## mje1980

jefin said:


> Hi MJE
> 
> I'm the same put my Flanders Red down at the same time as yours (back @ page 5!) and it has no pellicle. Same situation though very little head space and silicone stopper etc.
> 
> Haven't had a taste yet but smells fantastic.
> 
> Cheers Jefin


When I was looking at glass carboys I ended up getting 2 x 11 litre ones, so I could do a spilt batch, and also so I could lift the bloody things!. One of them I left plain, and the other has rum soaked oak chips I saved from a brett porter, and I'm sure I've added some cantillon dregs. 

When are you going to bottle?, I plan on taking a reading after Xmas and going from there.


----------



## jefin

mje1980 said:


> When I was looking at glass carboys I ended up getting 2 x 11 litre ones, so I could do a spilt batch, and also so I could lift the bloody things!. One of them I left plain, and the other has rum soaked oak chips I saved from a brett porter, and I'm sure I've added some cantillon dregs.
> 
> When are you going to bottle?, I plan on taking a reading after Xmas and going from there.


Hi Mje

Was thinking of raking it off onto some oak chip's soaked in pinot after Xmas and bottling mid next year (I did a 20L batch in the one carboy). Will decide once I have a taste. Might even chuck it in a keg, if I do that it wont last long though!!

Planning to do a 40L batch the same day as raking and use the dregs to get things going. If it turn's out to be good I will delicate one of my fermenters and do 40L each year (or might invest in a oak barrel!).

Did you do a primary ferment with a standard yeast then inoculate with bug's or did you chuck em all in at the start?? I went with the later option and let the beer sit on the yeast cake.

Cheers Jefin


----------



## mje1980

Ok, I'm sort of similar. Hard to be patient though . I just pitched roselare, it went nuts the first few days.


----------



## jefin

Yeah same here Mje

Can't wait to get into mine either but i think patience will pay off, I did the same pitched the roselare and she went nut's.

Looking forward to comparing notes in 14 months time!! (It's not that long!)

Cheers Jefin


----------



## barls

go cubes or dominos if your going to use oak mate better flavours.


----------



## Danwood

Staves are available for too, if you look around. Got mine from Homemakeit, American or French available....not affiliated. 

Got 2x 7in. staves (not really a full stave, but you get the idea), Shiraz soaked, in a brew atm.


----------



## hwall95

Has anyone tried the Wyeast 3209PC - Oud Bruin? Was thinking about do a dark sour ale/saison and then if it turns out nice, maybe ranking a heavy stout onto the yeast cake


----------



## mje1980

barls said:


> go cubes or dominos if your going to use oak mate better flavours.


Got some dominoes soaking in rum now. It's just over 12 months old so I'll add the oak in a week or two into one half and I'll add some cherries to the other half and aim to check gravities for bottling around March.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

So I bottled my Flanders Red a couple of days ago. 9 months old, although it got a couple of months following primary with the heat belt to encourage Lacto and Pedio.

It had developed a pellicle last few months and accompanying funk although the FG of 998 hadnt changed from a few months ago, figured there wasnt much more fermenting it could do. Very nice straight from the fermenter.

I put 5l on 800g of pie cherries and bottled the rest in champers bottles with 16g/l sugar priming and some new yeast.

I deliberately didnt give the bugs a great deal of food this brew as it was my first and played it safe, still has a nice tartness and accompanying funkified flavours though.

Gonna do same recipe again but target more sourness. Very happy with the results even considering the time taken.


----------



## mje1980

Nice work mate. I still haven't taken a reading of mine yet. Almost 14 months so I'll bring them down. After having a sneak peek taste of my cherry Berliner I think half of my Flanders will get cherries. Probably the non oaked half. 


I thought Flanders are we're just carbed at normal ale levels, not super high carbed ?


----------



## Danwood

Wow, that's a lot of priming sugar, J and B !

I realise they're champagne, but them's some strong bottles ! How many volumes will that end up at ?

I'm just sampling my RIS actually. Oaked first, and I've just removed the cherries after their long soak (it's been around 2months). 

I have some Boon Kriek yeast recultured in the fridge to throw at a 5L demi-john of it soon.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Cheers, yep looking forward to cracking the first bottle :icon_drool2:

Theres a few reasons why I used so much priming sugar.
I typically like slightly higher carbonation anyway, and after such a long time it likely lost much of the dissolved CO2 from the ferment and with a FG of 998 can take/needs it.

If there were more food left for the bugs to chew on in the bottle I would have used less (higher FG).

Also it tasted like it would be good sparkling 

Theres enough priming sugar for about 6 volumes CO2 for a typical beer, which will probably end up around 4.5-5 in this one.


----------



## mje1980

Ah yeah good point about dissolved c02. I prime my saisons with I think 8g per litre in champagne. I like them dry and fizzy too .


----------



## hoppinmad

I'm planning on doing a kriek lambic soon and am considering using the new Wyeast 3203-PC De Bom blend. Apparently it allows you to make an "Authentic sour ale in a fraction of the time". This is the description given by Wyeast:

_Beer Styles: Lambic, Geuze, Flanders Red Ale, American Sour Ale

Profile: Wyeasts QC Manager and Worlds Tallest Microbiologist Greg Doss developed De Bom to create authentic Old- and New-World sour ale profiles but in a fraction of the time required by previous, less manly cultures. For best results, we recommend the following: no O2/aeration at beginning of fermentation; periodic dosing with O2 during fermentation to stimulate ethyl acetate production; frequent sampling to monitor development and complexity. Under optimum conditions, beers can be ready for consumption in 1-2 months.

Alc. Tolerance 10% ABV

Flocculation variable

Attenuation 75-85%_
_Temp. Range 80-85°F (26-29°C)_

I like it really sour so would probably use the sour wort technique for 3 days prior to the boil then pitch the wyeast blend. Has anyone used the De Bom blend? What are your thoughts?

I was thinking after a month of primary I would rack onto some sour cherries and let it sit for a couple of months prior to kegging. Is that the general process that people would use? or is it okay just to age the beer in primary for the full period?


----------



## mje1980

The cherry berlinner I just made is very very Kriek like. It's way quicker than a real lambic. I think it was less than 2 months.


If you like it really sour, make a beer with it, then dump a cube on the yeast cake. The 2nd should be much more sour. I did this with the 2nd cube of berlinner and the one fermented on the cake is way more sour.


----------



## hoppinmad

Okay, will try that out. Will rack the lambic off the primary onto cherries then dump something new onto the cake. Looking forward to trying this all out. Have made quick berliners before, but they are pretty bland to me so hoping the mixture of sacc, brett and lacto combined with the cherries (..and maybe some oak) will give me something to savour a little more


----------



## mje1980

Yeah I found the bw a little bland so added the cherries. Eleventy million times better with the cherries .

I also think brett helps out bw as well for more flavour. I'm not super experienced with them though


----------



## Bomber Watson

Stupidest question on earth. 

Any way we can sample some commercial varients of this kind of thing before brewing them?

Search on the shelves and website of dans for various keywords brought up zip, Did have JS four wives pilsner show up once......Pretty sure its not the style were talking about 

Cheers.


----------



## hoppinmad

mje1980 said:


> Yeah I found the bw a little bland so added the cherries. Eleventy million times better with the cherries .
> 
> I also think brett helps out bw as well for more flavour. I'm not super experienced with them though


I split my current batch of bw into two 10 litre batches and added 1kg of frozen strawberries to one of them. Turned out pretty tasty... just the right amount of strawberries to give it a good pink colour and strawberry flavour. Nice pink head and just the right amount of sourness to complement the fruit flavours. Will definitely be doing that one again!


----------



## lukiferj

Bomber Watson said:


> Stupidest question on earth.
> 
> Any way we can sample some commercial varients of this kind of thing before brewing them?
> 
> Search on the shelves and website of dans for various keywords brought up zip, Did have JS four wives pilsner show up once......Pretty sure its not the style were talking about
> 
> Cheers.


Going to have to find a decent bottle shop that stocks them. Not sure that there would be many in Rocky. There are a few online bottleshops that would ship though.


----------



## mje1980

Beercartel.com.au and similar sites. They're not cheap but awesome beers. Boon kriek is my fave


----------



## Bomber Watson

Thanks.


----------



## Tony

Funny...... Havnt logged onto here in 6 months and when i do...... the sour beer thread pops up.

I still have a lambic and Flanders red fermenting..... almost up to 2 years now.

I really should bottle the red!

MIght start prepping some bottles tommorow

Cheers


----------



## Danwood

Time is relative on AHB, Tony.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Danwood said:


> Time is relative on AHB, Tony.


specially when sour beers are involved...

Bit of a tip regarding cherries, cut the skin before freezing so when you add them the bugs don't have to break through. Learned this from preserving olives.

Just a single straight cut will do.

Are cherries still for sale? Might freeze some more going by the odor coming out of the Cherry Flanders Red.


----------



## mje1980

I think they're mostly gone now. 


I've been wondering about pitted cherries. I usually throw everything pit and all. However I've still got probably enough to cherry up a 2nd batch of berlinner weisse. First ones tasting so good I may as well get rid of the other cherries just sitting in the freezer doing nothing.


----------



## mje1980

I meant the ones on the orchards where you can go pick your own are mostly gone. Though I'm not completely sure and could be wrong. I went fruit picking 2 weeks ago and the cherries looked mostly gone.


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Yeah, tail end of the season. The cherry trucks have disappeared, may still be refrigerated at supermarkets. I'll have a gander.

Cracked the first bottle today, carbonation is spot on.


----------



## Tony

Time is relative............ yeah true.

After almost 11 years on here it feels like yesterday I got sick of the spam on grumpies and joined AHB.

With sour beers...... I think time is endless 

Question for those who have bottled a sour beer, as i need to bottle this flanders soon...... its been 2 years.

how have those who have bottled these before gone about carbonation?


----------



## manticle

I've always added a smidgeon of extra yeast - usually dry, neutral and sprinkled- to a bulk prime. Not tried without but they've carbed up ok. 12-18 months is the age of the batches I've done this with.


----------



## Tony

How much g/L did you bulk prime mate?

and how much fiz?


----------



## Tony

Im also thinking I should be planning another flanders to dump on the dregs and 2 year old french oak


----------



## manticle

Been a while since I did it so bit vague on the details. I'm never a super fizzy beer kind of guy though so I reckon 1.8 -2.2 co2 vol would have been my likely range (probably lower end) and g/L as per any other beer to get that theoretical volume. Sorry to be so vague but pretty sure the process was exactly the same as other brews but I added in the extra yeast for backup (very bright beer after all that time in a demi).


----------



## Tony

Cheers mate

Now to find the time to clean the bottles :huh:

May be 2.5 years at this rate


----------



## bobsantos

I've read a lot about making sour beers. and this got me http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/11/brewing-sour-beer-at-home.html


----------



## Tahoose

Hmmm options, options. 

Have been thinking about a wine barrel setup, but after reading some of this thread I think I might have to investigate a solera . I have a 50ltr keg which might be suitable for this.


----------



## JB

Is there a particular strain of brett that would suit a 2 day sour mash?


----------



## AJ80

Finally bitten the bullet and pitched 11.5L of darkish mild (mashed nice and warm at 70C to give the Brett something to munch on) with WLP655 - belgian sour blend. My oldest plastic fermenter has been sacrificed to the sour beer gods and I've picked up a 15L glass demijohn for long aging on some French oak cubes. Will pitch something onto the cake when transferring - maybe something paler that I'll age on fruit. 

Now that I've sacrificed the fermenter also looking at doing some 100% Brett fermentations.


----------



## Tahoose

AJ80 said:


> My oldest plastic fermenter has been sacrificed to the sour beer gods.


May they look upon your sour interest with favour.


----------



## hwall95

My one month old experiment. It's the 2L leftover of my APA (only 15 ibu @ 60 hops) wort that I had spare. Pitched dregs of orval and vielle onto it. I know I completely under pitched but I was just curious what would happen just I went for it as it's better then throwing the leftover wort out. Smelling pretty nice atm, quite fruity. 

The pellicle getting thicker slowly, last week it was just clear bubbles but now it's getting whiter. Will leave it under my stairs for a year or so and see what happens


----------



## Tony

i have read back through this thread again and noticed a lot of people talking about mashing at high temps to give the bugs something to chew on.
The bugs will consume these sugars that are usually left fermented by regular yeasts, but they will eat them fairly fast.
You need to provide food for the bugs for 1 or 2 years + to keep them working and build the complex flavors.
To do this you need to do a Turbid mash which saves unconverted starch from the mash and adds it back to the boil.
The bacteria than feeds slowly on these starch particles.
My Lambic has been in the fermenter for almost 2.5 years and it still lets out a "bloop" now and then.
A lot of the idea behind the starch feed is that not all the bugs are active all the time. As conditions change over time in the fermenting wort, one or 2 bugs will be dominant. As they consume what the feed on, they die and leave both further food and suitable conditions for the next bug to come to life. So on and So on.
I have watched my beers change over the years. The gunk on top has changed in color, appearance and smell many times and I am fairly confident that they will be fantastic beers due to the turbid mash I did.

I popped the bung from the flanders red for the first time in almost 2.5 years and had my first sniff ever.
WOW!

Took a photo and put the bung back in.


----------



## Tony

What are peoples thoughts around leaving a true unblended Lambic uncarbonated?


----------



## manticle

Easy to check. After all - it's been well aged.
Personally I reckon the tiniest bit of sherbert zing suits me. I don't want still but I certainly don't want sparkling. The compexity of microflora and age needs room to sing and dance, which incidentally is the ONLY time I'll allow singing or dancing in my presence.

Except if it's really, really, really good and probably not dancing.


----------



## barls

i added a small amount of sugar just to lightly fizz it. think it was 10-15grams the whole 23L


----------



## mrsupraboy

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/1331-raspberry-beer/

I have atempted This recipe and used blueberrys and used wlp630 sour blend yeast. 

As my 1st sour i thought it world be good for a newbie. 

I read a few of the reviews. 

Some people did a 1 minute boil
Some people started fermentation at high temps 65degrees c .
Some people did it to the yeast instructions. 

Im guessing it will take a month for the sour to be ready to bottle or to keg.

What should i be expecting after a month. Should the sour taste be dominant or just coming through. Have i made a very balnd recipe. Whats your take on what i have do e or should of done. I pitched at 21degrees and through the blueberrys in a week after primary into 2ndary


----------



## barls

it will take more than a month and depending on the amount of blue berries you used it may not have much of that flavour. it takes a shit tin of blueberries to contribute the flavour . strawberries are the same.


----------



## mrsupraboy

I used 2kg of frozen. Do you think i should of uped them


----------



## barls

maybe, but at least you can taste and see.


----------



## mrsupraboy

I had a taste at 3 weeks. Not really sour at all. There is a solid blueberry taste through the beer. What do you think about the souring. Is it not gonna produce much sour due to the yeast or will the sour tend to come after a bit of aging. How long should i be leaving in the fermenter


----------



## mje1980

Be careful what you wish for. It's much better to have to wait for more sourness than to try and force it and end up with undrinkably sour beer.


I bottled half a batch of Flanders sour ale at the start of the year ( 15 months I think ). It seemed a little bland in bottling, and at first taste. After a few months in the bottle it has slowly increased in sourness and complexity.

The other half is still in the carboy.


----------



## mje1980

Checked the carboy, and the airlock looked out of water. Got it down and it smelt ok, so I ended up bottling it. It's right on 18months. I added us05 and the dregs of an orval to the bottling fermenter.


----------



## Ciderman

I'm going to make a Flanders red ale at the end of the month. I've got a recipe that I'm happy with, though I have a question about the yeast...

Do you ferment with a neutral yeast like US05, rack into carboy and pitch roselaire yeast or do you just pitch the roselaire first up. I can't imagine you would make a starter with that type of yeast, so two packets would probably be thereabouts for a 25L batch?


----------



## Batz

Ciderman said:


> I'm going to make a Flanders red ale at the end of the month. I've got a recipe that I'm happy with, though I have a question about the yeast...
> 
> Do you ferment with a neutral yeast like US05, rack into carboy and pitch roselaire yeast or do you just pitch the roselaire first up. I can't imagine you would make a starter with that type of yeast, so two packets would probably be thereabouts for a 25L batch?


It should not need additional yeast, it has two strains of Brettanomyces.


----------



## manticle

You can do either.
1 pack should be fine.


----------



## Grainer

I pitched with wlp001 from memory and 2 days later rosalare.. now going back id do just rosalare cause i like it more sour.. depends upon your preferences really.


----------



## Ciderman

I'd prefer it to be more sour so just one packet into the carboy and leave it?


----------



## michaeld16

The roeselare does contain sachromyces you can pitch just roeselare blend from the start or as you mention do most of the fermentation with a nuetral ale yeast and let the bugs go to work. I went with the first option as from what I have read just pitching the roeselare can create a more sour beer. I can't report on my Flanders red yet still to young


----------



## Batz

michaeld16 said:


> The roeselare does contain sachromyces you can pitch just roeselare blend from the start or as you mention do most of the fermentation with a nuetral ale yeast and let the bugs go to work. I went with the first option as from what I have read just pitching the roeselare can create a more sour beer. I can't report on my Flanders red yet still to young


My Flanders is 9 months old now so still quite a wait. I believe pitching another brew on the roeselare yeast cake will result in a more sour brew. I blew that one and tipped it. :unsure:


----------



## michaeld16

Batz said:


> My Flanders is 9 months old now so still quite a wait. I believe pitching another brew on the roeselare yeast cake will result in a more sour brew. I blew that one and tipped it. :unsure:


Yeah I'm looking forward to dumping the next batch on the yeast cake but at only 4 months old a fair way off yet. However I brewed a double batch one fermenter got roeselare the other wyeast oud bruin blend which has come along alot quicker.


----------



## Ciderman

Thanks for the helps guys. One other thing, just working out abv, will the FG get pretty low, like 1.002-1.005?


----------



## manticle

In my experience - yes. Exercise patience.


----------



## Batz

michaeld16 said:


> Yeah I'm looking forward to dumping the next batch on the yeast cake but at only 4 months old a fair way off yet. However I brewed a double batch one fermenter got roeselare the other wyeast oud bruin blend which has come along alot quicker.


I brewed mine as usual then racked to a glass carboy, I would not leave the brew on the yeast cake after fermentation is finished. Asking for off flavours there.


----------



## Ciderman

Batz said:


> I brewed mine as usual then racked to a glass carboy, I would not leave the brew on the yeast cake after fermentation is finished. Asking for off flavours there.


Yep that makes sense. So pitch yeast as normal and I'd expect a normal style ale ferment. Let sit for a couple of weeks then rack off yeast cake into carboy. The bacteria will do its magic from there.


----------



## Batz

Ciderman said:


> Yep that makes sense. So pitch yeast as normal and I'd expect a normal style ale ferment. Let sit for a couple of weeks then rack off yeast cake into carboy. The bacteria will do its magic from there.


That's it, that dead yeast can give you yeast bite. Perhaps not known to some but I have had it years ago and it's very unpleasant. Admittedly it is more apparent at warmer temperatures
I rack off as soon as the ferment is done, the bacteria is still well and good in your wort.
Keep up posted to as it turns out, I'll do the same. :beerbang:


----------



## michaeld16

Batz said:


> I brewed mine as usual then racked to a glass carboy, I would not leave the brew on the yeast cake after fermentation is finished. Asking for off flavours there.


Ah yes had wondered about this and had read mixed feelings on just leaving in the primary, I thought I would just give it a go as I thought Brett would clean up on the autolysis. I will be brewing the same batch shortly and taking your method keen to see if my palette notices much diff


----------



## Reman

There's been a few Beersmith podcasts on sours and almost all of them recommend leaving the beer on the cake as Brett and Pedio will clean up the autolysis given enough time.


----------



## Grainer

I left mine in the primary for one week to do the majority of the ferment then racked of the large cake to my barrel..


----------



## manticle

Beers I've done with roeselare have been left on the cake the entire time. That's well over 12 months in each case. I have experienced autolysis with other brews and normally would avoid extended contact with yeast cake but in these instances it has not resulted in discernible off flavours (apart from the obvious, desirable brett/bacteria funk).


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Reman said:


> There's been a few Beersmith podcasts on sours and almost all of them recommend leaving the beer on the cake as Brett and Pedio will clean up the autolysis given enough time.


Lambic is left on the yeast cake, while Flanders Red and Oud Bruin are racked off after primary.

Leaving on the yeast cake favors Brett development. To favour lactic development for Flanders ales hold at 27 degrees in a glass secondary for a couple of months, like how the young beer for blending is made.


----------



## thylacine

Jaded and Bitter said:


> Lambic is left on the yeast cake, while Flanders Red and Oud Bruin are racked off after primary.
> 
> Leaving on the yeast cake favors Brett development. To favour lactic development for Flanders ales hold at 27 degrees in a glass secondary for a couple of months, like how the young beer for blending is made.


Thread 'tangent':

I purchase commercial lambics and sours and really enjoy them. But not ready to commit to the time required to brew/age them myself.

A pleasant surprise today when my latest fruit beer went sour/tart on me, or at least my taste buds. Neither previous fresh apricot nor fresh mango brews changed from sweet fruit flavours to sour/tart as did a recent raspberry recipe. I anticipate it will become my poor cousin 'sour' recipe. e.g.. 1kg frozen raspberries added to 15L batch as yeast activity beginning to diminish.

Apologies to purists but just sharing my surprise, or perhaps evidence of my non-BJCP abilities. 

;-)


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

thylacine said:


> Thread 'tangent':
> 
> I purchase commercial lambics and sours and really enjoy them. But not ready to commit to the time required to brew/age them myself.
> 
> A pleasant surprise today when my latest fruit beer went sour/tart on me, or at least my taste buds. Neither previous fresh apricot nor fresh mango brews changed from sweet fruit flavours to sour/tart as did a recent raspberry recipe. I anticipate it will become my poor cousin 'sour' recipe. e.g.. 1kg frozen raspberries added to 15L batch as yeast activity beginning to diminish.
> 
> Apologies to purists but just sharing my surprise, or perhaps evidence of my non-BJCP abilities.
> 
> ;-)


This thread went off on a tangent a couple of years ago :lol:

Yep raspberries have acid in them, and maybe a little lacto and friends made it in there on the fruit.

Its a bit of a wives tale sour beers take at least a year to make. Of course the truth is a little more complex.

First separate out Lambic from Flanders Reds/Bruins.

Lambic can be served young, or after 1+ years, or in a blend of all ages as Gueuze.

Flanders Reds/Bruins are generally 2/3 to 3/4 young beer (~2 month) blended with 1-2 year old aged beer.

Take for example Rodenbache. Rodenbach Original is made from 25% 2 year oak aged red ale and 75% young ale brewed in steel tanks. Rodenbach Grand Cru is made from 67% 2 year oak aged red ale and 33% young ale brewed in steel tanks.

The older beer has developed more character, but can be too much by itself.

So yes you can drink young sour beers, although your probably breaking some kind of home brewing "Lore"  

Heres a tip if you want more sour next time you make a fruit beer. Go no higher than 10IBU and when you rack onto your fruit add some lacto (pref brevis) and try to keep at 27 degrees for up to 8 weeks (probably less). Taste your hydrometer samples regulary until your happy :kooi:
If you like put some away for aging and future blending with a young batch to provide complexity.

Of course either keg or refrigerate bottles after carbing and consume quickly to avoid bottle bombs.


----------



## Ciderman

I made a Mulberry Sasion in October which I kegged first week of November. It tastes like its starting to sour slightly. The taste is getting better so I'm not complaining. Is this normal for a fruit beer?


----------



## Jaded and Bitter

Ciderman said:


> I made a Mulberry Sasion in October which I kegged first week of November. It tastes like its starting to sour slightly. The taste is getting better so I'm not complaining. Is this normal for a fruit beer?


Was the fruit completely sanitised? If not all kinds of critters live on the skin, also many fruits contain acid.


----------



## Tech02

mattric said:


> I'm interesting in brewing a sour beer but I really have no idea how to go about it. I know the basics of an IPA and such but sour beers really have me interested.


 I have the same problem with you. Did you solve it?


----------



## AJ80

Tech02 said:


> I have the same problem with you. Did you solve it?


This is something I had a fair bit of trepidation with as well before buying American Sour Beers by Michael Tonsmire - it's a great read and breaks things down into simple components. 

One of the thing he recommends early in the book is to make the jump and get a sour beer underway before you finish the book. He recommends something with an OG between 1.040-1.060, fewer than 20 IBUs, colour below 25 SRM and minimal late boil hopping and pitching a commercial souring microbe blend from Wyeast (Roselare) or White Labs (Belgian Sour Blend1). 

One you make the jump you will never look back. Good luck!


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## AJ80

Another option that delivers a sour beer without the time or dedicated/separated equipment is sour mashing or kettle souring. A great place to start and given the wort is boiled, thus killing the souring microbes, it can be fermented in any fermenter with a clean ale yeast (I've had good results with both Nottingham and the Mangrove Jacks West Coast).


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## jimmy86

The only issue I have found with kettle souring is it is slightly one dimensional. You don't get the complexity of using different lacto strains the way you do in a ferment.
But on saying that a simple Gose with a kettle souring method is one of the best beers to drink on a hot day IMO. That's my house beer.
It is a good way to learn how to balance your sour beers also.


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## Mardoo

Willing to share your recipe? I had a couple goses (gosii???) and I reckon you're right about it on a hot day. Awesome!


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## Jaded and Bitter

I think the stygma of needing a whole set of separate brewing equipment for using lacto is ridiculous.

Lacto is everywhere already, especially if you use grains. Its in your mouth, everywhere!

If your sanitation is already keeping it out of your brews you should be able to clean it out of your equipment fine too. Soak with sodium percarbonate, rinse with star san etc.

I just use the same equipment and clean the beegeezers out of it as I always do.

I actually have bigger problems with airborn wild yeast at bottling than lacto (this was before I started using it as well).


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## jimmy86

Mardoo for my original kettle sours that I have made I used wyeast strains and followed methods previous posted on this site until I got the pH I was after but now as I have gotten busier in life I found an easy way to make a great quaffing Gose. I got the idea for this this technique out of BYO mag a few years ago.

For my last four batches of Gose that I have made I have been using acidulated malt for the lactic acid and adding it late in the mash to avoid raising the pH too high for the conversion of the other malts.

50% Weyermann Wheat
30% Weyermann Vienna
20% Weyermann Acidulated

8 to 9 IBU's using noble hops at 60 mins. Mostly I use Tettenanger but on the batch I am kegging tonight I used Summer hops in the hope I can achieve some stone fruit notes but with such a low volume I may be blowing wind up my own ass.

1gm Sea salt per litre (into the fermenter) Make sure not to use iodised salt. 5 mins from end of boil.

30gm Coriander seed ground in morter and pestle 5 mins from end of boil. ( Be aware that if you use your wife's small food processor to grind the coriander when your lazy may result in cracking the plastic bowl and your brewing will lose any credibility it had instantly)... I will add whenever she uses it now I still either get "the look" or a smart ass comment I don't think I deserve. h34r:

Mash the wheat and vienna for 60 mins at 64degC then add the acid malt for a further 30 mins.
Mash out and sparge as normal

I only boil this for 60 mins as I don't see the need to go longer with this beer.

Ferment with any neutral ale yeast, US 05 has been my last go to yeast with this beer also.

This beer probably wouldn't win any style comps but I love it and so does the wife.

Also wine drinkers like it too, as its not too beery. As if that's even a problem


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## Mardoo

Fantastic mate. Huge thanks for the detailed recipe!


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## jimmy86

Pleasure mate


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## jimmy86

Well the one kegged yesterday that used summer hops is helping the coriander shine and just seems more "sharper".
I am enjoying the change in the hops and can recommend using them.


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## Ciderman

For those who have made an unblended lambic, did you use the 3278 WYeast or a combination of Brett, lacto, pedio etc


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## barls

my one that i got third with was straight brett L and some dregs


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## Ciderman

Another sour question. I made a 25L batch of Flanders red with the #3763 Roeselare two weeks ago today. Ferment was slow to get going so I suppose it's been actively fermenting for 11-12 days. Gravity is sitting around 1.010 and I was thinking after 2 weeks I would rack to a glass carboy. It still has a 1-2cm Krausen on top of the beer. Do I need it to completely fall away before racking?


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## barls

nope do what you want,


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## Ciderman

Cool, might let it go a couple more days then rack it off.


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## winkle

Anyone think its worth having a Sour Beers wiki?


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## Grainer

If I did it again Id just use Rosemarie straight up as I would have preferred it more sour. Which is what I plan for my solera barrel next.


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## JB

There a new Sour Hour podcast out & vidcast too


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## AJ80

JB said:


> There a new Sour Hour podcast out & vidcast too


Cheers JB - my favourite podcast, although it's a little strange to see the faces behind the voices ;-)

Just finished up at GABS16 and there were some great sours on tap. The white Rabbit Flanders red was a real standout as were the two different Rodenbachs and Boon Kreik on tap (I really was spoiled!). The sour from Ferral was a real winner too. 

A number of 'kettle soured' commercial sours were also on offer and, on the most, were surprisingly disappointing. Overly lactic and tasted like extreme sour cream / natural yoghurt. Real shame.

Edit: anyone else going along, make sure you hit up the Local Taphouse sour bar. Apparently their one keg of Cantillon will be tapped tomorrow night. Was rather disappointed it wasn't on offer tonight!! Get in early if tonight was anything to go by - the Rodenbach did not last long.


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## JB

Awesome AJ, I had to sit it out this year. I heard from a non sours enthusiast, according to him there were too many sours, so I was a bit disappointed to have missed it. Ah well next time.


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## dannymars

AJ80 said:


> Cheers JB - my favourite podcast, although it's a little strange to see the faces behind the voices ;-)
> 
> Just finished up at GABS16 and there were some great sours on tap. The white Rabbit Flanders red was a real standout as were the two different Rodenbachs and Boon Kreik on tap (I really was spoiled!). The sour from Ferral was a real winner too.
> 
> A number of 'kettle soured' commercial sours were also on offer and, on the most, were surprisingly disappointing. Overly lactic and tasted like extreme sour cream / natural yoghurt. Real shame.
> 
> Edit: anyone else going along, make sure you hit up the Local Taphouse sour bar. Apparently their one keg of Cantillon will be tapped tomorrow night. Was rather disappointed it wasn't on offer tonight!! Get in early if tonight was anything to go by - the Rodenbach did not last long.


They had Tilquin Gueuze on the Friday afternoon........ hard not to drink more than one.


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## AJ80

dannymars said:


> They had Tilquin Gueuze on the Friday afternoon........ hard not to drink more than one.


Indeed! Another standout.


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## Tony

I have a couple great sours in the bottle that I was planning on entering to the NSW state comp this year but on logging in I am too late.

The best bit is that next year they will be better


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## barls

tony i look forward to the challenge next year.


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## JB

Any Melbourne sour beer enthusiasts not on Facebook or this may have just slipped by:

www.melbournesourfest.com


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## jbaker9

I have brewed a lambic, which is currently in a cube ready to tranfer to fermenter.

I am planning to do primary in a 30L bucket, then transfer to a glass carboy (nominally 23L, fits almost 25L). The primary purpose is to allow additional head space during fermentation.

My questions are:
- Lambics are normally aged several years on trub. Should I transfer some/all of the trub?
- How much head space should I be leaving for secondary? I would normally only leave a tiny headspace for my clean high gravity beers.

Cheers
James


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## barls

why not primary in the glass?


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## jbaker9

Hi Barls,

That was the other option that I am considering. The reason for primary/secondary was to be able to maximise the amount of beer that I put into the carboy for long term ageing.


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## barls

thats easy done. i ferment in mine and any above the top line in the fermentor goes in to a smaller demijohn to be added after fermentation slows down.
also it depends on the yeast your using but most of the sour blends don't kick up a huge head on them in the fermentor.


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## JB

& how would you combat the remaining dried krausen around the top of the carboy after primary ferment settles down? I'd want to minimise hiding spots for evil.


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## barls

i top up to the bottom of the neck and they disappear.


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## jbaker9

Thanks Barls,

That's a great idea. This is what I'll be doing.

Cheers
James


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## Benn

I love Sour Beer.


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## JB

Benn said:


> I love Sour Beer.



What type?


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## Benn

So far ...all of them.
I've been getting right into them this year & spending a small fortune at various bottle shops around Melbourne. 
Liking the cherry oaky types a lot. 
With the equipment I have available at the moment I think I'll give a kettle souring a go next brew day. 
I've been listening to a lot of 'The Sour Hour' podcasts lately. Learn something new everyday


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## jbaker9

Lambic Sr and Lambic Jr.


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## jbaker9

barls said:


> thats easy done. i ferment in mine and any above the top line in the fermentor goes in to a smaller demijohn to be added after fermentation slows down.
> also it depends on the yeast your using but most of the sour blends don't kick up a huge head on them in the fermentor.


Topped up. Thanks Barls for the tip. Next time I'll put more in the carboy to start with. I could have easily filled to 22l mark which would get me up to the neck after top off.

Soon I'll be replacing the air lock with a piece of oak dowel to allow a bit of air ingress.


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## Benn

Drinking my first HB'd Sour and loving it.
It's a really basic Pale Ale base kettle soured _(based on the Dr Lambic Method)_ with WLP677 then fermented out with S04
9 IBU's of Mandarina Bavaria, 15g Vic secret dry hop.
Smidge of French oak chips in the cube for a few days and a jar of cherries added to the FV once fermentation was well underway.

It's more tart than sour, finishes dry with good head retention. Around 4.2% ABV would be smashing on a hot summers afternoon.
Nothing like I had hoped for but a welcome surprise.




Cheers


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## skb

barls said:


> i top up to the bottom of the neck and they disappear.


great I was wondering the same I finally got around to tasting one of my sours, 22 months after I started it. Literally left untouched apart from topping up an airlkock every 6 months. I moved half to a keg and a bit on top of fruit and then dumped another beer on top of it, and it went crazy !! everywhere. So have a bit of cleaning and may have to fill it right to the top


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## barls

just bottled the oude bruin that was in the barrel that stu and i share. its young but tasty. filled with a red ale to make a flemish red.


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## skb

Benn said:


> Drinking my first HB'd Sour and loving it.
> It's a really basic Pale Ale base kettle soured _(based on the Dr Lambic Method)_ with WLP677 then fermented out with S04
> 9 IBU's of Mandarina Bavaria, 15g Vic secret dry hop.
> Smidge of French oak chips in the cube for a few days and a jar of cherries added to the FV once fermentation was well underway.
> 
> It's more tart than sour, finishes dry with good head retention. Around 4.2% ABV would be smashing on a hot summers afternoon.
> Nothing like I had hoped for but a welcome surprise.
> View attachment 106352
> 
> Cheers


looks bloody great I need to do one, I love a slightly Tart beer


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## JB

Melbourne sour beer enthusiasts, please make sure you're fully aware of: http://www.melbournesourfest.com


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## Benn

Spewin! I'll be on a family holiday.
...the sacrifices one has to make.


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## JB

Benn said:


> Spewin! I'll be on a family holiday.
> ...the sacrifices one has to make.



Yep, it'll be a shame to miss that family holiday.


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## thumbsucker

Did anyone go to the 2017 http://www.melbournesourfest.com, how was it?


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## Jase

barls said:


> just bottled the oude bruin that was in the barrel that stu and i share. its young but tasty. filled with a red ale to make a flemish red.




What size is your barrel Barls? 

Cheers,
Jase


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## JB

thumbsucker said:


> Did anyone go to the 2017 http://www.melbournesourfest.com, how was it?



It was cancelled the week before it was meant to take place, I think the organiser had something personal pop up - can't quite recall.

Should be on 2018 though.


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## barls

Jase said:


> What size is your barrel Barls?
> 
> Cheers,
> Jase


its an octave so 100L


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## Hambone

I already posted about this on general brewing techniques prior to finding this thread.

I thought I would try a little sour experiment with a Kombucha SCOBY to see what happens. I made a 5l wort with pale malt extract and steeped pilsener grains.
After guidance from Milk the Funk, I intend to boil after 5 days and add hops and ferment with US05 as per normal ale.
Day 1









The bubbles on top is some of the starter.

Day 3





Questions moving forward are:
1. How long should I ferment for?
2. How long should I bottle condition for?

Cheers Hambone


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## Zorco

sour beers are less nice than non-sour beers. 

proven by astrology science


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## Hambone

Zorco said:


> sour beers are less nice than non-sour beers.
> 
> proven by astrology science


Hahaha maybe.


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## Zorco

im trying every day to love them... some brilliant lads in Toowooooomba make delicious sours.


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## thumbsucker

I remember my first sour it was a can of Rodenbach. My mate bought it for me amongst a sampler of beers. I remember taking my first sip and it was a light bulb moment for me, Ohh my God this is the best beer ever, then I had Rodenbach Grand Cru, and then it it became the best beer ever. 

Embrace the acid, live the funk.


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## Zorco

alright.... give me these exemplars and Ill pursue them


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## Hambone

thumbsucker said:


> I remember my first sour it was a can of Rodenbach. My mate bought it for me amongst a sampler of beers. I remember taking my first sip and it was a light bulb moment for me, Ohh my God this is the best beer ever, then I had Rodenbach Grand Cru, and then it it became the best beer ever.
> 
> Embrace the acid, live the funk.


I've never even tried a sour, yet here I am trying to make a sort of a one.


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## Zorco

Legendary


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## thumbsucker

Hambone said:


> I've never even tried a sour, yet here I am trying to make a sort of a one.



That is a recipe for disaster, while the sour beer styles we have today evolved over time naturally it was mostly through trial & error. Stumbling into a sour with no plan is likely to end up with something nasty.

However sometimes you get lucky, my first sour was a Witbier flavoured with Hibiscus flowers the flowers had some kind of wild yeast on them and I got a secondary infection in the Witbier, it turned out magical. This bright red wheat beer with this lovely floral acidity.


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## thumbsucker

Hambone said:


> I've never even tried a sour, yet here I am trying to make a sort of a one.



I recently had a can of Acid by 3 Raven that is a great gateway beer into sours. Pale hop forward beer with a refreshing tart finish, I am told it took Brendan 2 years to get the recipe right.


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## YAPN

thumbsucker said:


> Stumbling into a sour with no plan is likely to end up with something nasty.



Yep. That was my experience. I threw together 4 sours and got 2 rotten brews, 1 reasonable and the 4th has been in the fermenter for 3 months but not looking good.

But I now understand a lot more about sours than before. Maybe thats just the way I learn.


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## thumbsucker

Hambone said:


> Questions moving forward are:
> 1. How long should I ferment for?
> 2. How long should I bottle condition for?



Ferment to taste keep the Kombucha SCOBY in until it reaches happy profile for your taste. Then take a gravity reading to see how much it has dropped if any. Kombucha is a cluster FUBAR of yeast and bacteria so you may have something close to final gravity or you could have near your OG. Who knows.

If its gravity has majorly dropped I would be tempted to let it finish by itself and then force carb in a keg before bottling (This avoids adding sugar that can lead to bottle bombs as the Brett goes nuts). Skip hops and US05

If you boil then pitch US05 bottle condition is null because you will kill anything off that can contribute to bottle conditioning the beer.


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## Zorco

mmmmm....scoby


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## Hambone

thumbsucker said:


> Ferment to taste keep the Kombucha SCOBY in until it reaches happy profile for your taste. Then take a gravity reading to see how much it has dropped if any. Kombucha is a cluster FUBAR of yeast and bacteria so you may have something close to final gravity or you could have near your OG. Who knows.
> 
> If its gravity has majorly dropped I would be tempted to let it finish by itself and then force carb in a keg before bottling (This avoids adding sugar that can lead to bottle bombs as the Brett goes nuts). Skip hops and US05
> 
> If you boil then pitch US05 bottle condition is null because you will kill anything off that can contribute to bottle conditioning the beer.


Ok great thanks for the advice.
Cheers


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## Hambone

OG was 1065, SG 1060 today after 1 week. 
Tastes slightly sour but malty in the mouth after that.
Probably leave another week then do the boil.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

thumbsucker said:


> However sometimes you get lucky, my first sour was a Witbier flavoured with Hibiscus flowers the flowers had some kind of wild yeast on them and I got a secondary infection in the Witbier, it turned out magical. This bright red wheat beer with this lovely floral acidity.



Not necessarily an infection: hibiscus flower is very acidic by itself. I once developed a hibsicus flavoured wine as a contract job and was surprised by how much acidity the hibiscus contributed. It would be even more evident in beer with its higher pH.


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## Hambone

Day 14 SG 1045 down from OG 1066. So did a 20 min boil with 5g each of Simcoe, Amarillo and Galaxy at 10 min. Now I will ferment with US05 at 18Degrees Celsius.


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