# Biab Insert



## reg (20/3/09)

Hi guys
My last brew effort I burnt a hole in the side of my bay whilst bringing it up to Mash out temp.

I was thinking of doing this, please be gentle on my idea.

I am currently getting Wayne from Beer Belly to give me a price on knocking up an insert for my urn made out of the same materials used for false bottoms.
There would be feet on the bottom to keep the insert above the element and lifting lugs at the top for easy lifting out of urn.
The bottom and sides would be made out of the same material so as to allow for flow of liquid.

This idea should work, shouldnt it.
What are others views on this and has anyone done the same?

Reg


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## MarkBastard (20/3/09)

reg said:


> Hi guys
> My last brew effort I burnt a hole in the side of my bay whilst bringing it up to Mash out temp.
> 
> I was thinking of doing this, please be gentle on my idea.
> ...



I remember there was a thread about this recently.

You obviously can't squeeze it, and I guess the concensus was that it defeats the 'cheap and easy' purposes of BIAB, but I do think its a good idea and worth pursuing.

I hope ultimately BIAB evolves into a single vessel system that is all stainless steel, where a lot of the steps are much easier, perhaps working in some ways like a big coffee plunger etc.


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## Pollux (20/3/09)

I remember someone posting a link to some baskets that were made by crown to fit their urns...

I'll see if I can find it.


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## Damian44 (20/3/09)

Was the bag Swiss Voile?


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## raven19 (20/3/09)

So we are just essentailly talking about an immersible SS mesh cylinder & mesh base with feet?

:icon_offtopic: Sounds good, bit like my Grandpa's old fishing box, you could lift the fish in a mesh basket out of the water filled esky, once you got the boat and esky back to the shack.

Back On topic - In the case of BIAB - are you going to lift it say almost all the way out of the urn then hold it (somehow) and sparge more to wash sugars of the grains into the urn?


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## Pollux (20/3/09)

Ignore that post, they would have only been useful as hopsocks...


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## Bribie G (20/3/09)

If you have a skyhook and can raise your bag off the element, then raise temp, switch off power, lower bag, stir like buggery and your'e mashed out.

On the other hand if you have to use muscle power to hoist the bag then your'e a bit stuffed.

I know a couple of guys like Pollux use a cake stand or camping wire-griddle-on-legs thingo which serves to keep the bag off the bottom of the urn. 

Personally I find that raising the bag and leaving it drain over the urn for 20 mins while bringing the wort to the boil, then a good squeeze, is a great way of lifting efficiency and any no-squeeze arrangement would be a shame IMHO


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## MarkBastard (20/3/09)

raven19 said:


> Back On topic - In the case of BIAB - are you going to lift it say almost all the way out of the urn then hold it (somehow) and sparge more to wash sugars of the grains into the urn?



That's what I was thinking, but I guess you'd have to only have mesh at the bottom otherwise the water would run off sideways?

The whole needing a hoist for BIAB thing seems to me like a traditional setup would be easier. I've done a mini BIAB and the squeezing was managable with 2kg of grain but I can't imagine doing it with 5kg of grain, what a nightmare, must get messy too.


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## Pollux (20/3/09)

I don't use a cake stand, I just don't have my urn on while the bag is inside....

Bought me some gloves the other day, makes the squeezing a bit easier....

EDIT: I did a mash the other day of 5.5kg of grain, 33L strike volume. at the end I simply tied off the top of the bag, fitted by brandnew dishwashing gloves (1.97 for 2 pairs) stood on a chair and lifted the bag.....

Stood there for about 3 minutes to let the bulk of the bag drain then raised it high enough above the urn so I could slip my 15L pot in underneath....

I then tied the bag to a hook on the back of the door and leave the bag to drain into the pot for a little while, go turn the urn back on to start boiling and then come back and give it a GOOD squeezing...Start of the boil I had 31 litres in the urn

It is easier if the missus is about to help with getting the pot underneath, but it's not impossible to do alone....next I want to find a tub that will hold my big metal colander so I can dump the bag in there and give it a good squeeze.


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## Katherine (20/3/09)

skyhooks and pulleys are the way.... make's your day so much easier


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## SpillsMostOfIt (20/3/09)

I think that if BIAB was to be used as a commercial process, a stainless steel replacement for the voile would be almost a must.

Back here in the real world :lol: I direct heat my kettle to mash-out with the two middle rings of a 4-ring burner and am yet to see any signs of hole-making. Without meaning to sound too critical, I don't understand how people burn their bags.

Stirring (in all senses of the word) is important.

Pulleys are for girls. I use and recommend the RopeRatchetSkyHook(tm):

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/zQg_L...feat=directlink

Although it has gone through a modification or two since that photo was taken.


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## Katherine (20/3/09)

last time I looked I was a girl...


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## QldKev (20/3/09)

I do like the idea, but as already said it may be worth spending the extra to convert to a 3 stage system.


My method is a BIAB batch sparge..

I start by leaving out 3L of water from the original mash.

Once mashout time
Hang the bag over a bucket


Once drained mostly couple of minutes, 
drain the bucket into the kettle, 
drop the bag into the bucket and open,
pour your 3L of sparge water at 80c over the grain, (this is heated in the kitchen using a normal house pot)
rehang bag to drain.

The container I use (in the pic) cost $8 from Bunnings. 
My pre-boil efficiency lowest has been 77%, the first ever brew was 80%.
For an extra few % I dont think it is worth the hassle of changing. I'll just throw in an extra handful of grain up front.. (will actually be a calculated weight based on brewhouse efficiency )

Also as a side benifit I get to put the lid on the kettle while playing to help get to a boil as quick as possible.


Not saying this is the best method; it is just what I do. I don't want to spend anymore $ on a system that by design was a simple/cheap method to get into AG

QldKev


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## Ross (20/3/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> The whole needing a hoist for BIAB thing seems to me like a traditional setup would be easier. I've done a mini BIAB and the squeezing was managable with 2kg of grain but I can't imagine doing it with 5kg of grain, what a nightmare, must get messy too.



:icon_chickcheers: 


Cheers Ross


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## Mantis (24/3/09)

Hoisting the bag is not a biggy. Like Katie said a sky hook is the go and I do it on my own with no problems. 
Maybe years of shearing and holding a hot handpeice have numbed my hands to pain , but squeezing the bag is not a big thing either. 
Then hang it in a 20L bucket while the heat is turned on to get another litre or two

I take it that you are not a fan of BIAB Ross


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## reviled (24/3/09)

I cant believe how many people have sky hooks/pulleys :unsure: I for one personally dont think its nessecary, im not trying to say im big and strong or anything, quite the opposite, ive even done 7.1kg batch and lifted it out myself, without any help, held above the kettle then put the bag in a bucket, minimal spillage, easy peasy B) and for squeezing the bag I just got some chux gloves to stop my hands getting burnt.. 

I would maybe look at a pulley if I was doing double batches, but still prolly not


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## br33zy (24/3/09)

reg said:


> Hi guys
> My last brew effort I burnt a hole in the side of my bay whilst bringing it up to Mash out temp.
> 
> I was thinking of doing this, please be gentle on my idea.
> ...



Hi Reg,

We're resisting the move to BIAB until we can resolve this problem as well. I've been trawling the web for a month or so now trying to find a suitable SS mesh basket to use in our kettle.

I wonder whether the hole size would need to be smaller than for false bottoms. My (limited) understanding of the way a false bottom works with sparging is that the process relies on the stability of the grain bed to provide filtering; while the false bottom merely keeps the whole mass clear of the pickup.

Using a basket would be slightly different. When lifting it out, the water will run off the top of the grain and out the holes at the side; as well as down through the grain and out through the bottom - so I think a finer mesh would be necessary. There are some much finer meshes available though; its just whether Wayne could weld them. And by the looks of the stuff we've got from him I'm sure its possible.

Cheers and let us know how you get on.

Breezy


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## QldKev (24/3/09)

Breezy too said:


> Hi Reg,
> 
> We're resisting the move to BIAB until we can resolve this problem as well. I've been trawling the web for a month or so now trying to find a suitable SS mesh basket to use in our kettle.
> 
> ...




I though the idea was the basket was to stop the bag from hitting the bottom and sides; so still use the bag for straining.

QldKev


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## KingPython (24/3/09)

Yeah this problem is stopping me from getting an urn and finally moving to AG. Since I rent, a sky hook won't be possible, the next option is to get a ladder and do it Alton Brown turkey frying style. Plus the fact I can't sow a bag


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## Bizier (24/3/09)

I am working on exactly this problem right now.

I have a 100L robinox (Katie is your's one of these?) and I want to have a flase bottom in it with hoisting points to lift it evenly, and hook it onto the top for draining. I simply cannot use a skyhook, I have even thought about a large tripod, but it is getting ridiculous. But I need something in there to allow it to drain as I raise it to boilling temp. I figure that it doesn't have to sit too far below the top of the kettle either, as you could twist the bag into a kind or pyramid shape and that should keep it flowing into the kettle.

I want to do 50L and possibly 70L batches, so some hoisting mechanism will be necessary.


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## Katherine (24/3/09)

In the picture above is PP's set up, my pot is 60lts. Still very hard for me to pull out with out a pully espeacially when doing a double batch. Im only short so I need the pully.


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## br33zy (24/3/09)

QldKev said:


> I though the idea was the basket was to stop the bag from hitting the bottom and sides; so still use the bag for straining.
> 
> QldKev



I've considered that idea as well - but why not just get rid of the bag altogether?


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## Katherine (24/3/09)

Breezy too said:


> I've considered that idea as well - but why not just get rid of the bag altogether?



This is a BIAB thread... wouldnt work with out the bag.


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## Sammus (24/3/09)

There's that german brewmeister thing that kinda works like this. using a ss mesh basket instead of a bag, has a pump built into it to and it's programmable, so it recirculates while heating, like a giant rims. then remove basket and boil. all electric.
I've often thought about making one, but using a bag and a cake thing to hold the bag off the element.


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## Ross (24/3/09)

King Python said:


> Yeah this problem is stopping me from getting an urn and finally moving to AG. Since I rent, a sky hook won't be possible, the next option is to get a ladder and do it Alton Brown turkey frying style. Plus the fact I can't sow a bag




All you need is an Esky plus an Urn/Kettle. Not knocking BIAB, but don't be put off AG becuase of sky hooks & bags.... Traditional mashing is no harder.

Cheers Ross


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## seemax (24/3/09)

There is also BIAB using any old esky as the mash tun.

The simple way is heat your full volume of strike water up in kettle, add to esky. Lower bag into esky with grain, mix up well, obtain mash temp. Wait 60mins. Stir around a bit more. You can then drain esky straight into kettle.. push and prod the brag to squeeze out as much as possible. You may lose some wort, but next time you will know how much to add.

You can also do a bag sparge with this method, or even a stepped infusion. It means you don't need a manifold and the esky keeps it at temp without reheating or insulating your pot.


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## Bribie G (24/3/09)

I'm way into my autumn years and despite skyhook have no problem lifting the bag once the initial wort has run out. The skyhook gives me a bit of a breather to hold bag in place while I muck about elsewhere weighing hops etc but at a pinch I could do without it. For a 5kg grain bill it's about 12 k and rapidly drains down to around 9 after some squeezing. Whenever I get off my rse and do some dumbells I do 10 kg in each hand easily. If you look at my personal photo you'll see that I'm no sumo wrestler  

Mind I feel for Katie, I can imagine her wrestling a double batch like Perseus fighting the Medusa .... calm down Bribie <_<


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## KingPython (24/3/09)

Well I already do partials using BIAB so it means it wouldn't be that big of a learning curve to step up. The other issue of course is space doing full mash etc.


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## MarkBastard (24/3/09)

BribieG said:


> I'm way into my autumn years and despite skyhook have no problem lifting the bag once the initial wort has run out. The skyhook gives me a bit of a breather to hold bag in place while I muck about elsewhere weighing hops etc but at a pinch I could do without it. For a 5kg grain bill it's about 12 k and rapidly drains down to around 9 after some squeezing. Whenever I get off my rse and do some dumbells I do 10 kg in each hand easily. If you look at my personal photo you'll see that I'm no sumo wrestler
> 
> Mind I feel for Katie, I can imagine her wrestling a double batch like Perseus fighting the Medusa .... calm down Bribie <_<



dont sell yourself short mate, you are BUFF


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## Thirsty Boy (24/3/09)

Ross said:


> All you need is an Esky plus an Urn/Kettle. Not knocking BIAB, but don't be put off AG becuase of sky hooks & bags.... Traditional mashing is no harder.
> 
> Cheers Ross



I'm a big fan of BIAB and I don't mind promoting it. I do also firmly believe that nice simple BIAB is actually easier than traditional mashing.

*BUT*

If you are looking at mucking about with stainless inserts and false bottoms and all manner of other guff - then suddenly its not anymore.

BIAB with a bag and _maybe_ a pully = the easiest simplest way to make an AG beer that I have seen

After that and before BIAB with any other sort of mucking about - would be a two vessel (kettle and eski) no-sparge (or single run-off batch sparge) system with a braid false bottom

For BIAB Major equipment need only be

One Pot
One Bag
One heat source
(optional pulley)

plus the usual minor EQ

big spoon, bucket, thermometer etc etc

If you need any more than that - well, you are doing it wrong in my book

The bag thing is supposed to make life easier and simpler. If its not doing that for you, or even worse, doing the opposite, then its utterly pointless and you should investigate the rather varied amount of other ways you can brew.

All the neato stainless insert,sliding plate, sparging variations and stuff probably will and/or do work - its just a matter of whether they are worth it or not - and I think not. There are better non-bag alternatives.


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## br33zy (24/3/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I'm a big fan of BIAB and I don't mind promoting it. I do also firmly believe that nice simple BIAB is actually easier than traditional mashing.
> 
> *BUT*
> 
> ...



Good point TB, the beauty of BIAB is in the simplicity. Don't over-complicate it.

The beauty of BIAB is in the simplicity. Don't over-complicate it.
The beauty of BIAB is in the simplicity. Don't over-complicate it.
The beauty of BIAB is in the simplicity. Don't over-complicate it.
The beauty of BIAB is in the simplicity. Don't over-complicate it.
...
The beauty of BIAB is in the simplicity. Don't over-complicate it.


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## Mantis (24/3/09)

We need to get Reviled a ticket to OZ so he can hold the bags for us h34r:


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## glenos (24/3/09)

Perforated SS plate,


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## flattop (24/3/09)

Ok BIAB
BREW IN A BAG is supposed to be simple
But what about BREW IN A BASKET
If a stainless basket was devised like a fish and chip basket, hot water sparge over the top?
Simplicity is the key not cost, a stainless basket costs more than a bag but if it works why not?
Pulley or no pulley who cares, it's still brewing.
Purists can argue about method but....
Remember that taste is important over method.


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## reg (24/3/09)

flattop said:


> Ok BIAB
> BREW IN A BAG is supposed to be simple
> But what about BREW IN A BASKET
> If a stainless basket was devised like a fish and chip basket, hot water sparge over the top?
> ...


This is what the idea around the original post was.
If I could replace the bag with a stainless basket that would do the same job then why not.

I understand the concepts of simplicity that comes with BIAB but like most things that come with breweries anything that helps you is a nice to have.
Just thinking outside the square a little and it may help me in my situation a little. After all isnt that what is the mother of all inventions.. :icon_cheers:


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## Katherine (25/3/09)

Amita a brewer from here brews in a metal basket he has posted a picture here before.


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## Bizier (25/3/09)

I am jumping to the defensive as well.

It would be much more complicated for me to implement a pulley, than a FB kind of insert. The insert would stop me having to lift for a sustained period, and would let me do other tasks (such as opening a low abv beer) while the wort is draining.


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## Katherine (25/3/09)

What is so hard about putting up a pully, I posted a picture previously on this thread which is PP's my Biab Daddy setup... took him no time to set up... Ours is a little different and not as pretty as we couldnt drill holes into the roof but we just tied a piece of rope around the garage door rollar and hang a pulley off that...we got the cheap set from Bunnings. Really not that hard.


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## KingPython (25/3/09)

I'm just going to do it manually. I'd feel ridiculous using a ladder and such.


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## Bizier (25/3/09)

I am in an apartment and will be doing this outside in the car park... I would have to create a crane structure to support a pulley. I even thought of a large tripod, but the insert idea seems more logical to me in my specific instance, expecially with large batches.


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## reviled (25/3/09)

Goddammit all this worrying about pulleys and inserts, if its just a single batch just lift it out with your arms, seriously, its honestly not hard... If youre worried about lifting for sustained periods just throw the bag in a bucket and let it drain out that way... 

If you find it hard, by all means feel free to blame me 

edit : Or as Mantis suggested - buy me a ticket over and ill lift it for ya


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## staggalee (25/3/09)

Bizier said:


> I am in an apartment and will be doing this outside in the car park... I would have to create a crane structure to support a pulley.










Could be the answer?

stagga.


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## KingPython (25/3/09)

Bizier said:


> I am in an apartment and will be doing this outside in the car park... I would have to create a crane structure to support a pulley. I even thought of a large tripod, but the insert idea seems more logical to me in my specific instance, expecially with large batches.


Look on youtube for a video on Alton Brown deep frying a turkey. He uses a ladder and some pulleys to get the turkey in and out. I'd feel ridiculous doing it inside though so don't know how'd you feel.


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## MarkBastard (25/3/09)

reviled said:


> Goddammit all this worrying about pulleys and inserts, if its just a single batch just lift it out with your arms, seriously, its honestly not hard... If youre worried about lifting for sustained periods just throw the bag in a bucket and let it drain out that way...



Has anyone done any experiments with regards to how much efficiency you get if you do the following...

1 - Lift and toss the bag without draining.
2 - Lift and drain the bag passively (ie no squeezing).
3 - Lift and drain, and squeeze as much moisture out as possible.
4 - Lift and drain, squeeze, then sparge and lift drain and squeeze again.

Because it seems to me that 1 & 2 wouldn't require a pully. 1 just requires you to be able to lift the weight of the bag, that's easy enoguh. 2 requires you to lift the bag and maybe hang it on a door knob or some other hook with the actual bag hanging into a bucket.

You guys that BIAB outside, do you have problems with insects and even just little things flying around in the air? I'd be a bit paronoid about crap getting into the brew.


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## Katherine (25/3/09)

Doesnt everybody brew outside???

ummm I cover my pot with the lid and then a towel. When its boiling I dont bother... boil the crap out the f*ckers.


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## MarkBastard (25/3/09)

Katie said:


> Doesnt everybody brew outside???
> 
> ummm I cover my pot with the lid and then a towel. When its boiling I dont bother... boil the crap out the f*ckers.



What if you're draining a bag in a bucket? It's basically cooked sticky grain just sitting there. Sounds like the kind of thing insects would froth at the mouth over.


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## hosko11 (25/3/09)

I only do partial biab's in a 20Ltr pot so I'm not dealing with the mass or volumes of wet grain you guys are, but this thread got me thinking - what about a BBQ spit (or bucket and water well) concept for those that can't mount a skyhook/pulley somewhere.

You need 2 vertical support poles mounted to the pot handles, a bar sitting across the two support poles that can be turned (I was thinking those cheap car jack winder in the boot of the car) and some sort of attachment lugs on the bar for attaching the bag. Turn the handle, the bag wraps around the rod, lifts up out of the pot and at the same time gives the bag a squeeze. Strap the handle to the support so it won't let the bag down and let it drain.

Need to think through the weight bearing ability of the handles and any stability issues..... just an idea and could be achieved with a few bits and pieces lying around the house.


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## MarkBastard (25/3/09)

That's one of the best ideas I've heard PPP.

If you had two cross bars, one fixed and one as a roller, the bag would get sort of squeezed between them too.


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## Bizier (25/3/09)

In all fairness, and with all due respect to the "laundry roller" style idea, how can this possibly be simpler than a strainer that is inserted before the bag, then when lifting, simply hooks onto the top of the kettle?


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## hosko11 (25/3/09)

I actually doubt you'd need a 2nd roller. I'd guess the weight of the bag would be enough to squeeze itself and drain. I personally don't squeeze my bag too hard, I just massage it a little and give it gentle squeeze.... I rather let it drain on it's own accord - I'd hate to end up with a split bag. h34r: 
Cheers,
Hosko


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## mesa (25/3/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Has anyone done any experiments with regards to how much efficiency you get if you do the following...
> 
> 1 - Lift and toss the bag without draining.
> 2 - Lift and drain the bag passively (ie no squeezing).
> ...



I'd very much like to hear the results of such experiements (I want to improve my lauter efficiency). http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...ding_Efficiency gives some interesting maths. If you can be bothered weighing yourself and the bag a) after lifting it B) after draining it passibly c) after squeezing it we could get how much water is absorbed by the grain and calculate efficiency. You only really need the 3 numbers (which you can get from one brew) and we can calculate the rest.

I should mention, I'm batch sparging, but I think I have a lot of dead space. Using a bag in an esky that can be lifted, I think its possible to massivly reduce dead space and grain absorption. If the one estimate I've seen for absorption in BIAB (0.5L/kg after squeezing) is correct, I think it may but the lauter efficiency for option 4 at about 96% (10kg grain bill into 40L sweet wort in two equal runoffs) which would be pretty much excelent even by fly sparge standards. (you might start having some serious pH issues though in the second runnoff)


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## PostModern (25/3/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> That's one of the best ideas I've heard PPP.
> 
> If you had two cross bars, one fixed and one as a roller, the bag would get sort of squeezed between them too.



Please shrink the image in your sig. It's ridiculously large.
Thanks.


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## troopa (25/3/09)

I have a pulley but im too lazy to install the bloody thing
Lift the bag straight out and put it in a bucket 
Then hang the bag up from a door knob, chair with phone books on it or any other devise, thing, stuff you can tie a knot around

7-10 kilos isnt that much even for most women... my wife carries our 12 month old son around half the day and he would weigh more then that now

The hieght of lifting it out may be a problem 
Solution... get a lower pot stand

Other then that im sorry but id have to agree with the purists here as much as i hate the idea of that 
KISS it and make great beer

Stainless steel basket large enough to fit even a 40litre urn will probably weigh in the region of 2-4 kilos and increase the difficulty of lifting the thing up

Tom


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## PistolPatch (26/3/09)

Someone sent me a link to this thread and have had a quick scan through. Here are a few random thoughts...

Those starting AG should start with minimal equipment and expense. So, do at least four or five single batches without pulleys, insulation or anything. This is fun and easy and will give you a great beer. Just follow the guide and nothing will go wrong - no burnt bags, no low efficiency, just great beer.

You will by this stage be absolutely dying to complicate things and this is half the fun. Some ideas make things easier and some things just cost you money with zero benefits. A pulley creates a hell of a lot of advantages but I still recommend doing 4 or 5 single batches before you get one.

So a pulley is number 1 improvement.

There have been several mentions of a stainless steel basket above. There is nothing wrong with this idea and if I could get a basket that had holes small enough to do what the bag does then I would go for it. There isn't one unfortunateley - it would cost you a fortune. So now you are thinking a bag within a stainless steel basket. This is a good example of an over-complication. On the surface, it looks as though it would be great but in reality, you are just creating more work.

The idea of a false bottom as originally mentioned in this thread is also a perfectly sound one but won't solve anything major that a pulley won't solve. It will give you peace of mind but you shouldn't use it as an excuse not to give your BIAB brew a bit of a stir when applying heat. When I have to do a major increase in temp say from 66 to 78, I actually use my pulley to lift the bag to the top . This way I don't have to stir. When it reaches 78, I turn the gas off, lower the bag and give the mash a bit of a jiggle. A false bottom, unless it was a very high one (which would then be useless) will not stop you having to do this if you don't want hot spots in your mash.

*Thinking about making your existing set-up more complex (and this applies to both traditional and BIAB brewing) is great fun. I love it* and quickly go out and implement anything I believe to be a "grand idea." Most of the time these grand ideas fail. Occassionally we have a small win and rarer still we have a big win like BIAB.

I have several mates who have very complex automated traditional brewing systems. They love thinking about them and improving them and tinkering. It is all good fun and I love seeing what they are doing and I get excited about it! The reality is though, that the more automated their system becomes, the more they have to keep an eye on it!!! And, there is a lot more cleaning! Their systems rapidly become vary inefficient.

There is nothing elegant about pulling apart ball valves to clean or trying to flush counter-flow chillers and pumps. Some home brewers actually have a lot more technology and ball valves in just their mashing and kettle system than many micro-breweries have in entirety. (It is no less time-consuming cleaning a small ball-valve than a big one. Bare that in mind!!!)

If starting out in AG brewing and you know the basics of cleanliness and fermentation then I think you couldn't go too far wrong in making the following your priorities...

*Before you Even Start AG Brewing..*.

a) Ensure your Equipment is Accurate - Most thermometers and hydrometers are inaccurate. How is yours?
B) Find Recipes for Beers You Enjoy - Taste your mate's brews and join in AHB Swaps. Brewing Classic Styles by Zainasheff (Jamil) and Palmer is a great book to help you here.

*Now, Brew Simply...*

a) Brew with Minimal Equipment - This not only keeps things cheap, it keeps things simple. If you can't brew a brilliant beer with BIAB or the most simple traditional system, then improving your equipment will not help. If anything, it will slow you down.
B) Play Around with Software - After your first brew, download the free version of BeerSmith or ProMash. (If you have a Mac then go straight to Beer Alchemy - I just bought a cheap second-hand Mac laptop mainly so as I could use this great brewing software!) Doing this will give your brain something challenging to muck around with besides playing with your equipment!!! This should keep you confused and occupied for ages - lol!

*And, After That Have a Good Look at Quality, Litres, Variety and Time/Effort*

What is most important to you? Quality of your beer, litres you can put out, the variety of beer you have to drink or the time it takes to do a combination of the former? What is your desired Q:L:V:T mix? Every brewer will have their own favourite ratio. Everything is a compromise so be very aware of what advice you take on board. Will it improve or sabotage your QLVT?

I''m not sure if I can even, in a post, break down what is important in each of the above areas but I'll have a crack  

a) Quality - If this is the area that is important to you then educate yourself about styles, yeast strains, pH, temperatures, lagering etc. You should still be able to brew the highest quality beer using the most basic BIAB or traditional set-up so don't use your equipment as an excuse for not making the highest quality beer.

B) Litres - I think the first things you need to look at if volume is your major consideration is double-batching and no-chilling. I double-batch a lot but usually give half of the batch to a brewer friend and they reciprocate. The maximum use of an average home-brew kettle would require the ability to double-batch and then cube (no-chill) half the kettle volume then chill the remaining batch for immediate ferment. I want to learn no-chill so am going to give this a crack on my next brew.

c) Variety - How many types of beers would you like to be able to drink? Do you like an occassional dark beer? If you have found a few recipes you like, then this can be a challenging question to answer. If you have stayed focussed on finding and brewing a few recipes you really, really like, then you are doing very well. You have gone way beyond getting hung up on the minutiae of brewing (eg, my efficiency went from 75-78% and realising these figures are totally unimportant if you have accurate equipment) and into the the real world of brewing.

d) Time/Effort - I think the biggest thing that is forgotten when brewers start to complicate basic brewing models is time and effort. Quality, Litres and Variety are the easiest things to master if the brewer wants this and puts concentration into these areas. Time and effort is the hardest area to get rewards in. On the surface, it seems easy to make great strides in this area but, practically, it rarely is.

For example, assuming we chill our beer, putting a tap on our kettle will make things faster and quicker. Right? (If you no-chill, a tap is pretty much necessary but still read on.)

Well, putting a tap on your kettle requires a ball-valve. These are lovely to use but you still have to pull them apart to clean them - even though it is on your kettle and exposed to high temps. This takes considerable time. An auto-syphon (assuming you are chilling) is quick and fairly easy to clean but still quite awkward. What is the better method?

In brewing, the more you complicate and automate, the more you have to really consider that Q:L:V:T. Most brewers don't consider it because complicating and automating is pretty exciting stuff and it is in our nature. We add a pump, ball-valve or solenoid and think that is great.

It is certainly in my nature to try anything as those who have known me since the day I joined this site will testify.

*Real Brewhouse Efficiency*

So often I see here and elsewhere questions on extract/mash/kettle/post-boil efficiency - i.e. how much sugar you extract from the grain at varying stages. Nearly all these questions derive from an over-reliance on faulty equipment or, more usually, mis-information, poorly-defined and wildly passed on. The funny thing is, if they are BIABers or batch-spargers, and brewing as prescribed on a single batch, they should be getting 75% mash-efficiency on average. Agh! Talk on efficiency drives me mad! It is so easy to get 75% and that is all the home brewer needs!

I would love to see some new brains focussing on how us home brewers can better clean. I think cleaning is the most under-talked area in home-brewing and the one that could do with the best thinking. It sounds boring but it is the most under-explored area in brewing there is and the one that most urgently requires our attention.

Whoops! Wrote way more than I thought...

Must be time for bed,
Pat


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## Cocko (26/3/09)

Awesome guest appearance PP and a great post, as always.. sincerely!


If a lifting/filter 'bucket' was to be easily viable surely it would just be a stainless 'bucket' style something with whatever size holes lined with a voile bag to ensure filtering and all is achieved!

Just a thought.

please carry on. :icon_cheers:


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## Thirsty Boy (26/3/09)

flattop said:


> Ok BIAB
> BREW IN A BAG is supposed to be simple
> But what about BREW IN A BASKET
> If a stainless basket was devised like a fish and chip basket, hot water sparge over the top?
> ...



People are I think missing my point,

An insert would work, in fact it is proven to - you don't even need a stainless one. A standard 20L food grade bucket with a crap load of holes drilled in it works. Just as per the bucket in bucket mash tun. Go back to the original threads where BIAB was being developed, and the insert was tried well before the bag was. It worked just fine. For a while there were two "single vessel" methods developing in parallel. Its just that the bags seemed to appeal to more people and were supported by more loquacious proponents - interest in the inserts dropped off.

There is no argument of purist vs non purist BIAB - no one cares. There isn't even an issue with whether these ideas would work or not. There is only the fact that all the complicating factors make the BIAB thing pointless.

Aside from the basic one vessel, bag, burner - you don't need anything. Pulleys etc are optional - *you do not need a pulley to do BIAB*. And even if you do decide you _want_ one - seriously... there is nowhere where you live that you could throw a rope over?? What about the washing line? a tree branch? a rafter? stair rail, hook screwed into a door frame? I live in an apartment and can see a good 3 or 4 places where I could attach a rope/pulley.

But if its still too much trouble - got a weak back - the bag gives you the willies - then there are other ways to brew. They are tried, true and nearly as easy as basic BIAB. Other people have solved all their problems and you know 100% for sure they can be made to work.

All I'm saying is don't get fixed on the BIAB paradigm, there are others and they might save you a bunch of angst and effort if the stock standard BIAB stuff isn't doing for you what it should.

If you want to invent a new method or variation of a method - then that's different - go for your life and I'll truly be interested in how it works out. You just don't *need* to do it is all.

TB


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## reg (26/3/09)

The whole point behind this thread was to stimulate conversation and discussion on ideas behind changing from a swiss voile bag to look at something like an insert with holes fine enough to allow wort through but grain in.
I really do appreciate the feedback that people have found the time to share on this forum.
For me with my young family, shift work and community commitments BIAB is the way to go and I will be for a while I would imagine.

Unfortunately though it is very cost prohibitive with quotes for the basket coming in around the $300 mark.
Looks like I will get a false bottom to cover my element and continue with my urn.

I burnt a hole in my bag with a mongolian burner, I lifted the bag out and heated from mash temp to Mash out and then put bag back in.
I unravelled bag to stir grain and put lid on for 10 minutes, this was when it burnt as the sides of the pot were hot and put holes in the voille.
Lessoned learned, I now brew in my 40 litre urn. Just need to cover the element for my own piece of mind.

Once again thanks for your replies

Reg


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## Thirsty Boy (26/3/09)

damn - that burner must have some grunt

I'm not a big fan of the lift the bag out technique - and you named one of the reasons. I am (in case anyone missed it) a fan of the leave the bag in and stir the crap out of it technique. That way your mash is more effectively pulling in the heat and things stay more homogeneous and less likely to have really hot spots.

Its harder - but it just works.

Heres an idea if exploring ideas is the name of the game.

Stainless bolting cloth - a Spillsmostofit idea. Spills and I have been (as an intellectual exercise) kicking around the notion of how you could BIAB on a small commercial scale. Spills is a fan of doing away with the voile and replacing it with an alternative. His alternative suggestion is the stainless bolting cloth.

Check your screen printing and industrial filtering type sites for information.

Basically it would be a bag made out of a fine stainless mesh cloth - still fundamentally a bag.... just a stainless steel one.

I have no idea of the costs though.

In all the permutations I personally came up with ... basically it came back to the voile, or an industrial equivalent. I looked at needled polyester felt (and bought and trialled some too) but I think it is a poor option. For me - its more or less a voile bag reinforced with webbing to take an industrial sized malt charge - usually with the voile replaced by a version of bolting cloth (polyester rather than stainless) and a combination of agitation and shielding to protect the fabric from overheating and melting near the heat source.

I think I have a workable design for a 150-500L BIAB system, modular in up to three units to give a total 1500L brewery - Spills likes his design better. But he's funny like that  

Don't let me saying that "the extras are a waste of effort" put you off trying for a better solution - you don't need one. You should and I have no doubt could tweak your methods to make your voile and mongolian combo work for you - but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be cool as buggery if you came up with an alternative.

TB


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## MarkBastard (26/3/09)

How about building the false bottom into the bag kinda?

Imagine a bag with a base. The base has legs on it so the base doesn't get as hot as the bottom of the pot, and the base holds the bag off the bottom too. The base could just look like a big version of those grills that go over PC fans. Sort of a bunch of coils. So it's holding the bag off the bottom without affecting drain off etc.

Now imagine if you had another one of these bases, but on the top of the bag. Then imagine if you could bring these two things together in an easy enough way so that they are squeezing the extra wort out of the bag. Possibly even inside the pot. You'd have to be pulling the base up against the top.

You'd probably need a pot with a fair amount of head room in it. Dunno if there'd be any real benefit but being able to squeeze the bag in the pot would be kinda cool. You could give it a squeeze as you're pulling it out and then just discard it and not worry about using buckets etc to collect drips.


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## Bizier (26/3/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Aside from the basic one vessel, bag, burner - you don't need anything. Pulleys etc are optional - *you do not need a pulley to do BIAB*. And even if you do decide you _want_ one - seriously... there is nowhere where you live that you could throw a rope over?? What about the washing line? a tree branch? a rafter? stair rail, hook screwed into a door frame? I live in an apartment and can see a good 3 or 4 places where I could attach a rope/pulley.



All good TB, and in the end I will do what I see working.

For single batches, I can see myself not needing anything other than a bucket to dump the bag in. But for double, triple batches, or high OG beers, I can see that I might need a slightly different approach.

I am on the top floor of an apartment with no balcony, so I am going to be brewing in the car park. It is basically against the sheer wall of apartments that are not mine (thankfully the lower one is a brewing neighbour that won't mind the smell). There is *absolutely nothing *to hang a hook from, zilch, nada. Thus my idea of a freely draining shelf that remains under the bag while mashing and clips to the top of the kettle when finished mash-out. You only have to lift a little way when full of moisture, hook it in place, then place the lid on the top as the liquor drains.

I understand that this is substantially different from the original SS insert idea replacing the bag.

I understand that BIAB is a working concept, and a blessing for someone in an apartment like myself, and I don't want to make it seem like it has fundamental flaws. I will do some testing of my own and see what works best for me in my instance.


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## crundle (26/3/09)

In one of the earlier BIAB threads (sorry, so many of them I can't recall which one), someone had come up with a small gantry type arrangement to sit over their brewing vessel, so that the bag could be tied up to it to be held above the liquid. This could be made of wood or tubing of some sort, and be able to be somewhat disassembled for ease of storage. Although a pulley isn't essential as noted by many posters here, it is nice to have the ability to raise the bag above the vessel to let it drain while the wort is being heated up for mashout for example. Perhaps a gantry of some sort might be an alternative for those living in an apartment?

Off topic somewhat, I am becoming a fan of lots of stirring during BIAB mashing, as my gravity readings have been very low compared to expected readings. Thought it over a fair bit and have come to the conclusion that I might only be extracting sugars from the grain on the outside of the bag if I just use the dunking technique to agitate the mash. My next one will just be done with lots of stirring and no dunking to see how it compares. Having said that, I am still very impressed by the beers I have been making, and look forward to being able to improve them by not needing to have LDME on hand to boost the gravity of the wort.

cheers,

Crundle


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## MarkBastard (26/3/09)

Thirsty Boy, I actually had an idea and searched for images of cake racks, and came across this post you'd made on another forum!

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/vie...&start=0/fa

You know the false bottom you've used, what if your bag was actually stitched to that, and then you had say 4 ropes also tied to the the rack at equal distances on the edge. Then if you had a bigger cake rack (that was bigger than the diameter of the kettle) you pulled the false bottom up into using the ropes, affectively squeezing the bag between two metal racks. May be a good option for people that can't use pullies and don't want to just pull the bag out, and the bottom cake rack could have legs on it so that the bag never touches the bottom of the pot.

Thoughts?


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## Bizier (26/3/09)

Hey mark, except for the top "grill", that is exactly my idea, but just letting gravity do the work.

ED: I figured 4 hoisting points and I thought 4 pieces of metal bent into hooks to hold the base at a specific distance from the top of the kettle.


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## MarkBastard (26/3/09)

Would you lift the bag up then hook the bottom grill onto some hooks that were attached to the side of the pot? Not a bad idea.

Again I'd like to have some data on efficiency differences between just draining, vs squeezing, etc. Cause if there's not much in it you may as well drain while you're waiting for the wort to boil.

Interesting though in that link it mentions hot side aeration when the bag is draining. It mentions leaving the bottom part of the bag in the wort while draining to minimise hot side aeration. Something else to think about I guess! How long is a piece of string again?


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## Thirsty Boy (28/3/09)

crundle said:


> In one of the earlier BIAB threads (sorry, so many of them I can't recall which one), someone had come up with a small gantry type arrangement to sit over their brewing vessel, so that the bag could be tied up to it to be held above the liquid. This could be made of wood or tubing of some sort, and be able to be somewhat disassembled for ease of storage. Although a pulley isn't essential as noted by many posters here, it is nice to have the ability to raise the bag above the vessel to let it drain while the wort is being heated up for mashout for example. Perhaps a gantry of some sort might be an alternative for those living in an apartment?
> 
> Off topic somewhat, I am becoming a fan of lots of stirring during BIAB mashing, as my gravity readings have been very low compared to expected readings. Thought it over a fair bit and have come to the conclusion that I might only be extracting sugars from the grain on the outside of the bag if I just use the dunking technique to agitate the mash. My next one will just be done with lots of stirring and no dunking to see how it compares. Having said that, I am still very impressed by the beers I have been making, and look forward to being able to improve them by not needing to have LDME on hand to boost the gravity of the wort.
> 
> ...



You almost certainly will get better efficiency with stirring rather than dunking - one of the things that has been emphasized on numerous occasions in BIAB discussions - is that the bag should in no way restrict the mash - you are NOT mashing in a bag, you are mashing in a pot. The bag should line the pot and not affect the mash, the way the grain settles or sits or circulates in any way at all. The mash part of BIAB should proceed as though the bag was not there at all. Hence the idea of the bag being bigger than the pot.

The bag only comes into play, after the mash is over and done with - maybe you use it to raise the grain off the bottom while you add heat to get to a sparge/mashout temp, maybe you dont even do that. The bag is for lautering - it should have nothing to do with mashing at all.

*Mark - *that sounds workable enough. It would probably work - I still cant see why you would actually want to do it that way - but if you want to... why not. It does sound like something that might have a good chance of getting tangled or something getting stuck and everything ending up lopsided, but a bit of care and it could be a goer. Maybe better with loops sewn into the bag - like those self squeezing teabags. Rack sits on the bottom (unattached to bag) then bag self squeezes as it is pulled out by the drawstring....

I wouldn't stitch the bag to the rack because that would interfere with squeezing for me - you would then be "forced" to squeeze only in the horizontal plane (either by your ropes and racks or by another way) because sideways squeezing would tear your bag off the bottom rack.

Tea is a good example here - think giant tea bag. There are tea balls, tea pots that are like coffee presses, standard tea pots, strainers, steepers etc etc - but what do most people actually do?? They drop in a teabag, jiggle it round for a while, pull it out and give it a squeeze between a couple of spoons

Squeezing the bag is going to make a difference thats fairly easily calculated. You squeeze - you lose about 0.5L of wort to grain absorption per kg of grist. You dont squeeze and that goes up to around 0.75 L/kg - So roughly 250ml of wort per kg difference. With 4kg of grain, thats a litre of wort that doesn't make it into your kettle, and thats from 3.5-4% of your extract. More than 4kg of grain... then it gets worse.

You can squeeze the bag perfectly well without a pulley - pull the bag up, hold it up for 10-15 seconds to drain - throw it in a bucket - Turn on your flame - take bucket and bag to nearest door - pull up the bag so its half out of the bucket and wrap the string around the door handle to hold it there - drain for a while - tip contents of bucket into kettle - put bucket back under bag, take two saucepan lids and squeeze bag between them - tip resulting liquid back into kettle - done

Some people get a big colander - pull the bag out - whack the colander over the pot - drop bag in. When it stops dripping, then push on it to squeeze. Your "upper" big rack would serve the same purpose. Just pull the bag and sit it on top of the rack for draining and squeezing.

HSA avoidance by leaving the bag in contact with the wort.... if you do have a pulley and can suspend the bag, then you can hang it to drain directly over the kettle. If you leave a tiny patch (say the size of a 50c piece) in contact with the surface of the liquid, then the wort draining from teh bag "flows" down rather than drips or splashes - you are only talking for the first minute or two, then you just hoist it up so it drains all the way out before squeezing (if you want). Not really an issue in my book, but its easy enough to do, so why not play it safe and avoid the splashing.

TB


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