# Woo Bonus!



## Stixor (18/5/09)

Hi, I just bought a coopers beer kit bout a month ago and didn't realise I could brew cider as well!!!

Are there any kits that will make a cider like bulmers or magners?

I hope I can get this to work!!!


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## hayden (18/5/09)

yeah you can. get yourself 9-12 litres of coles smart buy apple juice a cider yeast from your nearest home brew place 1/2 - 1 kg of dextrose fill up to 20 litres and you'll have a very nice cider


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## Pumpy (18/5/09)

Davey101 said:


> Hi, I just bought a coopers beer kit bout a month ago and didn't realise I could brew cider as well!!!
> 
> Are there any kits that will make a cider like bulmers or magners?
> 
> I hope I can get this to work!!!




You dont want it tasting like areoplane fuel so go easy with any additional sugar .

If you can use all the apple/pear blend juice it comes up just like Strongbow .

best to use an ale yeast Safale 04dried yeast , chop a few granny smiths up to add a fresher flavour you can add some 500gms Light dried malt extract to give a bit of body .

try to finish dry but with a little sweetness to give the cider some body if you can finishing gravity of 1.012 SG

Dont get a cider kit they are rubbish


Pumpy


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## Stixor (18/5/09)

I didnt know you could use apple juice!

What do you do with the apple slices?

The only kit i've seen is the brigalow one at coles.


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## manticle (18/5/09)

Davey101 said:


> I didnt know you could use apple juice!
> 
> What do you do with the apple slices?
> 
> The only kit i've seen is the brigalow one at coles.




Apple juice plus yeast will give you a cider. Ferment as normal. Yeast nutrient is also a good idea.

The best yeasts to use are cider yeasts or failing access to that -champagne or white wine yeasts.

You can spice up a kit with juice from freshly crushed apples or store bought juice or you can ditch the kit altogether and make it from either or a combination of fresh crushed/store bought. They will ferment very dry so if you like it sweet you can add malt or lactose or back sweeten with more juice or stop fermentation ealrier (only if you keg).

I recommend using white wine yeast, fermenting at lower temperatures and cold conditioning for at least a week (after ferment has finished, put brew in fridge at around 2 deg C for at least a week).

Ciders take a while to ferment and mature so patience is also your friend.

If you want to make something approaching magners you'll need to look at making it all from fresh fruit which involves good selection of a variety of apples and a bunch of other stuff.

I'd say make a kit and see where you'd like it to improve because there are a million different ways and just as many levels. Start simple, learn what you like and complicate it from there.


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## pdilley (18/5/09)

What can I say that isn't already here +1 


Dump the kits, using real juice and a decent packet of yeast from the LHBS can cost less than a tin of cider goo, even those marketed as "quality, upscale goo" with upscale prices to match 

Dump the extra sugar, you don't need to fly to the moon, and I'm sure you don't want to wait a year or two before you can drink your cider because its high alcohol and hot flavours need a long long time to mellow out to drinkability.

I ferment cool, and I age cool. Current aging temperatures are close to 12.5C. I'm in no rush though, so I just wait for it to become very clear on its own.

Spend the time inbetween putting down a few beers and it will be cider drinking time before you know it.


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## pdilley (18/5/09)

Oh and put down some natural old school Ginger Beer brews from real ingredients from the market for some instant satisfaction and variety in your collection!


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## Greg Lawrence (18/5/09)

Ive been doing the cider kits from country brewer for the missus, with pretty good results, but didnt realise how easy it was just using apple juice. I will be giving it a shot.
Tell me if I have got this right.
10-12L of supermarket apple juice, 500g of LDME, top up to 20L add yeast (safale 04 or champagne yeast) & nutrient and I have cider.
Is it really that easy?
Am I missing anything?
Gregor


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## Verbyla (18/5/09)

Yeah you can make a decent cider from just juice.

All you need is the following.

Juice- You can use just apple juice or 50% apple and pear juice/50% apple juice (I don't top up with water as it can make the drink watery)
Yeast- Use a good yeast. If not using a standard cider yeast wine and ale yeasts can be just as good or better. Nottingham is a common and good yeast to use. 
Sugar- Use dextrose, brown or raw sugar as a fermentable and lactose as a sweetener as cider will usually ferment to be very dry. Light malt extract can also be used if you want to try something different.
Its good to add some yeast nutrient a few days after fermentation has been going as cider takes a little longer to completely ferment and it is important to keep healthy yeast.

Personally i think the kits are crap but i've only ever tried doing them twice with both failed attempts.

Read through the "non beer" section of the forum to get a better understanding of how to make cider.


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## Stixor (18/5/09)

What is lactose and how much do you use?


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## manticle (18/5/09)

Davey101 said:


> What is lactose and how much do you use?




Lactose is milk sugar. It doesn't ferment well so the sweetness remains. Usually available from home brew suppliers. It's also used to add sweetness to stout.

I'd use 200g in 20 L as a rough guide although it really depends on how sweet you want your cider.

If you already have a cider kit try cider kit +200g lactose + 10 litres of preferred apple juice (berri preservative free is a good one) + 3-5 L water. White wine yeast and yeast nutrient, ferment at 15-18 degrees 7-10 days, secondary ferment/comdition at 2 -4 deg for 7- 10 days, prime and bottle.

The best cider you will make will come from all fresh apples but for a beginner this one will crap on any straight kit. If you don't have a kit just make the same recipe but with 15 -18 L apple juice.


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## brettprevans (19/5/09)

good on you for getting into brewing.

although i have to saym that i cringed when someone was suprised that you can make cider from juice. What did you think proper stuff is made from!!!! sorry couldnt help it. its almost like saying, "you can make beer from malt?".

all that aside. if you do a search for things like, lemonade, cider, mead, ginger beer etc, you'll find there's a lot of differant recipes and a lot of info on AHB. There's been a big cider/mead movement recently so you'll have heaps to read through. 

Welcome Davey and get brewing!


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## Fents (19/5/09)

i have the best cider on tap at the moment. fresh pressed juice from kellybrook winery, fermented with US-05. stopped at 1.010 gravity and its just the best one i've ever made. i'll never ferment cider with champagne yeast or wine yeast again. all about s-04 and us-05.


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## brettprevans (19/5/09)

Fents. how much did the fresh juice cost? wonga park isnt too far from me.


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## Greg Lawrence (19/5/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> although i have to saym that i cringed when someone was suprised that you can make cider from juice. What did you think proper stuff is made from!!!! sorry couldnt help it. its almost like saying, "you can make beer from malt?".



Yes, that was me. Not really what I meant. I was surpriseed that you could make it successfully out of supermarket juice rather than fresh juice. I always thought that the supermarket juice (unrefrigerated and lasts for ages) must have been full of preservitives and other crap.


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## manticle (19/5/09)

Gregor said:


> Yes, that was me. Not really what I meant. I was surpriseed that you could make it successfully out of supermarket juice rather than fresh juice. I always thought that the supermarket juice (unrefrigerated and lasts for ages) must have been full of preservitives and other crap.



You can buy preservative free pure juices. They are the ones I would recommend. Berri makes a good one.

The main thing with juice/fresh based ciders is getting a variety of sweet, acidic and bitter apples to give a balanced palate. A lot of fresh juices are similarly blended to give consistent flavour regardless of time of year.

Best to keep the preservatives away as I think they are tough on the yeast (??)


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## pdilley (19/5/09)

Fents said:


> i have the best cider on tap at the moment. fresh pressed juice from kellybrook winery, fermented with US-05. stopped at 1.010 gravity and its just the best one i've ever made. i'll never ferment cider with champagne yeast or wine yeast again. all about s-04 and us-05.



+1 on the no watering down comment. Water downed cider is really crap.

Welcome to the good cider, none of that kit crap, sugar crap, or kit yeast or champs.

With ciders drinkability counts  Higher ABV isn't all its cracked up to be.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## discoloop (19/5/09)

Pete, did you do treat the juice in any way, shape or form? (Filter/boil/pasteurise?)

What was the OG?


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## Fents (19/5/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> Fents. how much did the fresh juice cost? wonga park isnt too far from me.



was damn expensive mate. 2 or 3 bucks a litre...got it when they had their cider festival couple of weeks ago and i was half cut on their cider so price wasnt a concern. but i dont care, its the best damn cider i've ever made!


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## manticle (19/5/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> +1 on the no watering down comment. Water downed cider is really crap.
> 
> Welcome to the good cider, none of that kit crap, sugar crap, or kit yeast or champs.
> 
> ...




Next one I do won't have any added water. Even if I make a smaller one - I'll stick to apples. I only have a small home juicer so this one was a compromise but one step up from the last. This time last year was Brigalow kits so I've come a long way.The wine yeasts have been ok in my book although I've just used my first wyeast in a dubbel so I might try their cider yeast. Otherwise I might experiment with a lager yeast.

Brewer Pete: did you see my post about cold conditioning? Is that something you do for ciders? I'm a hamfisted amateur but I enjoy learning from people who've been doing it a while.


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## Stixor (22/5/09)

Right!

So will this be a good recipe?

12L of smart buy apple juice
850ml of goulburn valley pear juice
200-300ml of lactose
white wine yeast
water up to 20L

have i missed anything? 
I don't really want to do anything too complex for a first cider.


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## reviled (22/5/09)

So what brands of juice are good? What happens if you use just your bog standard preservative full juice?? Would dry enzyme help??


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## Pumpy (22/5/09)

reviled said:


> So what brands of juice are good? What happens if you use just your bog standard preservative full juice?? Would dry enzyme help??




A No frill Apple and Pear from Aldi 

Best not to use enzyme, cider shoud not be bone dry, you want some residual sweetness for body .

Pumpy


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## brettprevans (22/5/09)

Davy101 - look at the last page. watered down cider is crap. dont water it down. normal juice has an OG of about 1048 so it will ferment out to be about 5% (maybe a little more with champaign or cider yeast). but otherwise it looks ok. the white wine yeast will dry it out a little. so yeah the lactose will keep some sweetness. 

check out the other topics in this thread. esp the Simplest Cider thread. that should give you some more ideas.



reviled said:


> So what brands of juice are good? What happens if you use just your bog standard preservative full juice?? Would dry enzyme help??


Reviled - the better the juice the better the product. but all in all the normal supermatket stuff is apparently ok. From memory the preservitives they use in juices etc can inhibit yeast growth and thus fermentation. so steer away from preservitives.

edit: beaten bby pumpy


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## Stixor (26/5/09)

Maybe a stupid question.

But the juice we are talking about is the long life juice from the shelf right?


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## brettprevans (26/5/09)

well not the juice concentrates etc but yes just the normal bottles juice, like berri, P&N, Golden Circle, homebrand etc etc. Come in 2L, 2.3L, 3L 3.3L etc containers.


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## oldbugman (26/5/09)

stu, of the ISB made a real good cider a year or so ago.

was just self juiced apples and us05 from memory. maybe some nutrient.

I thought it was awesome as I initially cringed thinking it would be way to dry with hot fuels, but I loved it.


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## Stixor (26/5/09)

What is 11.25 Brix


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## DUANNE (26/5/09)

i tried to use fresh juice out of the fridge with an oztops lid and all i can say is horrible. according to some researrch the preservitives in it react badly with yeast and create off flavours. this certainly was my experiance with it anyway.


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## Greg Lawrence (26/5/09)

Ive been looking at the labels of apple juice at the supermarket lately, most of them are around 99.7% reconstituted apple juice. What exactly does reconstituted mean?
Can remember what he other .03% was.


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## DUANNE (26/5/09)

Gregor said:


> Ive been looking at the labels of apple juice at the supermarket lately, most of them are around 99.7% reconstituted apple juice. What exactly does reconstituted mean?
> Can remember what he other .03% was.




afaik it means the juice has been concentrated then watered-reconstituded- back down.i could be wrong though.


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## pdilley (26/5/09)

manticle said:


> Brewer Pete: did you see my post about cold conditioning? Is that something you do for ciders? I'm a hamfisted amateur but I enjoy learning from people who've been doing it a while.



Sorry, had relatives over and have not been keeping up on AHB. I bulk age in the coldest part of the house but I don't have anything under refrigeration.

Send me a PM with the post link and I'll make sure if I didn't read it, I do.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## pdilley (26/5/09)

Davey101 said:


> What is 11.25 Brix



Brix is an easy direct way of expressing the percentage of fermentable sugar solute (weight) in solution of water. Kind of like "the metric" of measuring fermentables in solution compared to Imperialist measurements.

11.25% sugar to water by weight, in solution, at a temperature of 20 degrees C. 

Or 11.25 grams of sugar per 100 grams of total solution.

See, dead easy!

Or for those stuck in gravity land, about 1.045 as a gravity measure.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Greg Lawrence (30/5/09)

Thought Id give it a go.
My 1st Cider...

12L Aldi Apple Juice (99.7% reconstituted apple juice)
4L water
500g LDME
10g Lalvin EC-1118 Yeast

OG 1.042

Fingers crossed.

Gregor


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## Stixor (30/5/09)

If I were to use 20L of aldi apple juice how much and what kind of sugar should I use? 

I was think 1kg of dextrose disolved in 1L of boiling water.

Apart from yeast, nutrient and possibly lactose should I add anything else?


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## manticle (30/5/09)

Unless you deliberately want a dry, highly alcoholic thinnish cider, I'd just go the juice, lactose, yeast and nutrient.


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## Stixor (30/5/09)

What about sugar?


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## troopa (30/5/09)

only if you want somthing higher then about 5%ABV .. your call but in my mind will diminish the flavor and get you right royal real quick 

Ive tried the oztops and think they are rather good for what they are 
I tried it with the ALDI 100% juices and all turned out far better then i thought they would
Also a great way for young players to try out different juices or crushed juices with additives in smaller quantities before going a full 20L batch 

Tom


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## Stixor (30/5/09)

Does the yeast react with the sugars in the apple juice?


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## Dicko ACT (30/5/09)

I have never tried using 100% apple juice before... Only kits with poor results. I'm will put one together tomorrow. Thanks for the advice!

I checked out ALDI's prices at www.smartershopping.com.au. WESTCLIFF Apple Juice 2L is $1.89. So all up with a pack of US-05 it's just under $25.


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## troopa (30/5/09)

Davey101 said:


> Does the yeast react with the sugars in the apple juice?



Yes. They are sugars
There is certain nutrients that apple juice lacks that Malt doesnt making the fermentation a little harder on the yeasties but they still do the job.

Tom


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## Stixor (3/6/09)

Will it taste better if I add 2 L of pear juice to the 20L of apple?

Which yeast was the most popular choice for this one?


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