# Substituting Torrified Wheat With Unmalted Wheat



## rockofclay (16/2/11)

I've not got any torrified wheat, and I was wondering if there was a way to substitute it with unmalted wheat. I was planning on doing a partial, which I randomly found online:

INGREDIENTS 
1. 1 can of Blackrock Whispering wheat
2. 1.5kg (can) of liquid wheat malt 
3. 250g dry wheat malt 
3. 30g coriander seeds cracked (boil)
4. 20g dried bitter orange rind (boil)
5. 500g torrefied wheat steeped in 4 litres 70 deg water for 30 mins
6. 3944 Belgian Witbier Yeast (Wyeast) or WLP400 (White Labs Belgian Wit) 
7. 14g Fuggles hops @ 10 min
8. 14g East Kent Goldings hops @ 20 min
9. 2g Cumin seed (boil)


As far as I understand it torrified wheat is popped using heat to break the kernel. This also gelatinizes the wheat so that the starches are freed. Should I bother trying to bake the grains in the oven? Or should I do the wheat steep for longer?


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## felten (16/2/11)

You can sub terrified wheat with flaked/rolled or micronized wheat, they have all been pregelatinised as well. If you have the unprocessed wheat then you can just boil it up to gelatinise.

[edit] not sure if that matters when you aren't converting it though


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## rockofclay (16/2/11)

Sounds good. 

I've got the unmalted wheat already. I read somewhere that the gelatinization temperature range for wheat is between 52 and 64C, So I guess I should whack it in the mortar and pestle to crack it, and steep it at 60C for 10 minutes or so. 

Does that sound about right?


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## kevin_smevin (16/2/11)

rockofclay said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> I've got the unmalted wheat already. I read somewhere that the gelatinization temperature range for wheat is between 52 and 64C, So I guess I should whack it in the mortar and pestle to crack it, and steep it at 60C for 10 minutes or so.
> 
> Does that sound about right?



wont this result in unconverted starches in your final beer - and starch haze. There are no enzymes to convert your starches to fermentable sugars. This might be what your after, not sure. It wont add any fermentables to your wort i dont think

just saw feltons comment saying the same thing about lack of conversion


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## Bribie G (16/2/11)

Hang on, if you are using unmalted wheat (flaked, torrified, supermarket flour whatever) you need some enzymes to convert the starch in the wheat to fermentables. From your recipe I see you have some wheat malt, but I expect that would be only capable of converting itself. What you really need is some high diastatic grain that has enzymes to spare and will convert your wheat for you.

Suggest ditching the wheat malt and using say a kilo of Australian Ale malt (Joe White or Barrett Burston) in the mini mash, and you will still have plenty of wheat in the recipe.


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## manticle (16/2/11)

BribieG said:


> From your recipe I see you have some wheat malt,



Dry wheat extract I would guess, not grain.

Rockofclay - a partial means partial mash whereby you get part of your fermentable sugar from mashing (not steeping) base malt.

It's been said in this thread already but your torrified/unmalted whatevber wheat will need the benefit of extra enzymes contained in the base malt in order to convert the starch to sugar.


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## gwb (16/2/11)

Hi rockofclay, 

I'm no expert, but this looks like a Belgium Wit to me. I've done quite a few with similar ingredients. I just did a mini mash with malted wheat grain and flaked wheat (or torrified wheat depending what was available). If I didn't have any flaked or torrified wheat I have previously just used half a bag of flaked oats. My understanding of the recipe is that we want some starch haze for a wit beer and the unmalted wheat (or oats) is there for that purpose.


I've used half a bag of these to replace the flaked / torrified wheat before.





It does result in a nice beer as you can see.




btw I had Beer Smith open so I had a look at the diastatic power of wheat malt - 325 Pilsner malt - 275

I wouldn't stress. I'm sure whatever you do will produce a good beer  

Cheers
gwb


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## rockofclay (19/2/11)

manticle said:


> Dry wheat extract I would guess, not grain.
> 
> Rockofclay - a partial means partial mash whereby you get part of your fermentable sugar from mashing (not steeping) base malt.




Cheers for that. I'm new to a lot of this stuff as I've only just started to move away from kits + kilo + hop tea bags. I'll be hoping to move up to AG in about a month.

There's dry wheat malt in there. Liquid as well, but unfortunately I'm using a can, so there'll be no enzymes. It's Pennywise's recipie. I've just shot him a PM about it now. I do have 1kg of malted wheat lying around that I could mash though.



gwb said:


> Hi rockofclay,
> 
> I'm no expert, but this looks like a Belgium Wit to me. I've done quite a few with similar ingredients. I just did a mini mash with malted wheat grain and flaked wheat (or torrified wheat depending what was available). If I didn't have any flaked or torrified wheat I have previously just used half a bag of flaked oats. My understanding of the recipe is that we want some starch haze for a wit beer and the unmalted wheat (or oats) is there for that purpose.
> 
> ...



Looks great. I do have some rolled oats in the cupboard. So should I make a mini mash with the malted wheat, and add 500g rolled oats/unmalted wheat?

Oats does sound nice.

Thanks for the help guys!


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## Pennywise (20/2/11)

Hey rockofclay, not my recipe although I can't recall where I got it from & can't remember if I changed anything myself to the original. But I know in this case the torrefied wheat isn't there really for fermentables, more for the haze you want in a wheatie. You'll have enough fermentables from the other ingredients so don't stress over that. I brewed this recipe a few times and it was a bit hit and miss with the spices, sometimes they came through and sometimes they didn't, yet I used the same amounts :huh: Still turned out nice though from memory


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