# Brisbane Water for brewing



## Sippa

Hey,

Looking to take my brewing a little further, I wanted to work out what base water chemistry I should be shooting for to optimize my brewing. Currently I don't do anything with my brisbane tap water or even measure and adjust mash pH so I was wondering If you smart fella's could give me some advise.

I have attached the latest water quality report from our water utility (QUU)

Cheers.

View attachment FINALQ009452015 Drinking Water Quality Management Plan Report 2014 15.pdf


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## LorriSanga

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Have a read of this. There are tables for water profiles.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

THank you guys so freaking much for the water plan and the brunwater water knowledge link. I knew my lower than expected efficiency was pH related, and this seems to confirm it, Now to build my water profile.


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## kevinj

*[SIZE=10pt]I recently did some reading on water and collecting of water profiles from articles and spread sheets.[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=10pt]Not one set of number was the same, not even from the same site (brewersfriend).[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=10pt]What gives?[/SIZE]*

*[SIZE=10pt]Have spread sheet if you’re interested, includes all the formulas I found.[/SIZE]*

*[SIZE=10pt]With no chemistry at school, getting the head around[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=10pt]mEq/L is defined as milliequivalents per liter[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=10pt]and ppm or mg/L[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=10pt]and Alkalinity ppm as CaCO3[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=10pt]and so on [/SIZE]*

*[SIZE=10pt]The 3rd time you read each article is the charm, sometimes.[/SIZE]*
*[SIZE=10pt]Needed to use wiki to decipher the wiki.[/SIZE]*


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## Bribie G

Depending on where you live in the greater Brisbane Area your water could be coming from the Gold Coast, Wivenhoe, North Pine, Sunshine Coast or even from the Caboolture River at Bellmere or from bore holes on Bribie Island, as they are all interconnected via the SEQ Water Grid.

If concerned, buy a RO system.


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## Oz-Brewer

I'm looking at move back to Brisbane in the new year, and I'm interested in this topic. Probably will buy in the Ferny Grove area. 

Wondering if any brewers have a water profile for that area?

Are people getting there water tested on a regular basis for consistency?

How much does it cost to get your water tested?


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## wynnum1

You can buy a meter to test water that they use to see if ro system is working correctly will not tell exactly .Rain water may be better then tap water and add back the salts


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## Meddo

I'm in Brisbane and used the Queensland Urban Utilities contact form on their website to ask for the specific water parameters for my suburb (Morningside) recently. It took them a couple of weeks to respond but eventually one of the water quality officers sent me the fortnightly test results for the last twelve months. If anyone's interested in Morningside specifically let me know and I'll post them here later, otherwise just hit up QUU and they should sort you out.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I do live in Ferny Grove (and have returned from further locations). I'd be interested in seeing the reports for Ferny Grove.

We actually sit like an isthmus of Brisbane sandwiched between Moreton Region's North Western Areas. From what I know we get a fair bit of water from North Pine and Somerset dams.

I've seen some reports of a general nature, but now i know I can contact QUU about a suburb specific query, I will do so.

I'll post any results if I remember.


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## Matplat

Yep, I've been in contact with a guy at unity water a fair bit, likewise he gave me a whole spreadsheet of measurements for each different analyte I requested. Didn't take weeks though...


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## Reedy

Meddo, I'm in Carina so would be interested to see the water profile for Morningside


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## Rambo

Yeah, I'd be interested too. Not sure if I'd know what to do with the information yet. But will be looking into playing around with 
my water shortly and live in East Brisbane


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## SimoB

Getting know water has helped my brewing so much. learning about water enabled me to troubleshoot problems with my brewing where before I only looked at obvious symptoms. ie. mash temp, infection, sanitation etc.

On a side note, who's measuring Ph throughout their brewing process?

Mash ph
Boil ph
Pre-fermentation
post fermentation
?


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## LAGERFRENZY

Meddo I'm in Cannon Hill so also very interested in Morningside water profile.


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## Meddo

No worries. The line below is from old mate's email regarding Morningside water, I've got no idea how far outside Morningside these test results are good for though. Raw data attached and averages shown below.




> I have attached a copy of the WQ data for the parameters requested. The water being supplied to the
> Morningside area is normally supplied directly from Seqwater owned and operated reservoirs located in
> Wellers Hill.







View attachment WQ Data Morningside 20160624.xlsx


Edit - if anyone here stayed awake during statistics please feel free to post a better analysis for this data than my simple averages...


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## evildrakey

Email I got from SEQWater in June...

Good morning Evildrakey, 

Thank you for contacting Seqwater. 

In regards to your enquiry, please find below the typical results for Mt Crosby for the parameters requested. I’ve used data from 1 January 2015 through to today.

CaCO3 – I’ve assumed this is meaning total hardness as Ca CO3 – range of about 80 to 125 mg/L average of about 115 mg/L
SO4 – range of about 23 to 33 mg/L average of about 26 mg/L
Cl – range of about 45 to 130 mg/L average of about 67 mg/L
Ca – range of about 19 to 28 mg/L average of about 24 mg/L
Mg – range of about 12 to 16 mg/L average of about 14 mg/L
Na – range of about 35 to 51 mg/L average of about 39 mg/L


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

FG Represent:

[SIZE=11pt]The Ferny grove area is supplied water via the Grovely Reservoirs located at Callan St, Keperra.[/SIZE]

From reading the report, the averages are:

Iron mg/L .01
pH 7.6
Chlorine mg/L .53
Nitrate and Nitrite as N mg/L .54
Manganese m/g/L .0026

That's about all i can manage from the report so far. 

They took 2 days, which I think is fantastic.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Okay, so he's said that they use :
[SIZE=11pt]We have a sample point located in the middle of Brisbane city that is our “flagship” sample point.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]We use this as the gauge for the whole of Brisbane. I have attached that report for your reference. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Sodium mg?l avg 32[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Sulfate as S04 mg/L 25[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Calcium as mg/L 21[/SIZE]


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Magnesium 14 ppm
Chloride 57
Alkalinity 80

I think that's all that I need.


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## fishingbrad

So who is the best contact, SEQ Water or QUU ?

Cheers.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

QUU.

They took 2 days to get back to me.

I have the 'whole of brisbane' report, which is taken from the CBD and actually has the specific chemicals/make up of the water that the ezy water calculator uses.

The pH of the area is actually useless because there is no spot to pop it in the spreadsheet.


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## Meddo

Just received an update from QUU for Morningside water, covering the July-November period, see link below. Given some previous questions in this thread, I asked if this data was appropriate for use in East Brisbane, Coorparoo, Cannon Hill and Carina, the answer was "The data here can also be used as a guide for the suburbs you detailed in your email." So make of that what you will.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zs6wnuFoqeSVZ4ruuVTbl0PZANbtEYWtMqT2ZMh1lrg/edit?usp=sharing


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## Matplat

You read New Scientist Meddo?

:icon_offtopic:


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## Meddo

I do. Why's that?

Edit: Oh, avatar?


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## Matplat

Yeah.... just saw that photo reading this morning!


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## Matplat

Back on topic, those figures are almost identical so what I recieved.

I was told the sample point was at Greenslopes, I'm in Holland Park West, and that if anything were to vary it would be Nitrate/Nitrite but the difference would only be minimal.


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## Parks

I recently got an RO unit and had it tested. My water is from Mt Crosby (I'm in Kenmore).

This may or may not help you but it's interesting none-the-less.


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## Rocker1986

Nice work Meddo! Given where I live my water is probably coming from the Wellers Hill reservoir too as I'm a lot closer to it. Or perhaps the Tarragindi one.

In any case, those numbers aren't much different to the ones on the QUU water report from 2015 that I used as my base water profile. I might send em off an email later though and see if I can get this information as well. Would be better than relying on yearly reports that aren't all that specific (although still close).

Didn't know the water supply used chloramines rather than chlorine... what's the best way to remove these things? Not sure boiling works?


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## Parks

"A pinch" of sodium or potassium metabisulfite breaks down chloramines in seconds.


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## tj2204

Rocker1986 said:


> Didn't know the water supply used chloramines rather than chlorine... what's the best way to remove these things? Not sure boiling works?


Potassium Metabisulphite, I just put a tiny pinch in my strike water as I'm filling up the urn.


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## Meddo

I'm no expert but from what I've read a ~700mg campden tablet does the trick for roughly single-batch sizes at the levels we've got (2mg/L). As per the link below $5 will do you 50 brews. Mick at Cannon Hill carries these too for the same price from memory.


http://www.cleverbrewing.com.au/campden-tablets.html


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## Matplat

I've started filtering my water with 'activated carbon' as this achieves the same purpose without changing the water composition...


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## Coodgee

Using the average for calculations is not very accurate. There is a pretty large range of values.


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## Meddo

True, but without sampling each time we need to pick a number of some sort. I haven't actually looked yet to see what the variance is like and whether some other method than average would be more representative - but the as-reported data is there to interpret to your preference anyway.

Edit: Ha, looks like something exciting happened on or before the 6th July...


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## Rocker1986

It probably rained a fair bit recently before that date in the dam catchment areas - they're full of limestone and when it rains a lot on them, the water temporarily goes harder. Dad used to test tap water in the lab at one of his old jobs and noticed this occurrence regularly following reasonable amounts of rainfall in the catchment areas. I expect the data for December will show a spike somewhere as well following the rain and storms that have been around in the last fortnight or so.

Thanks for the tips on the chloramine removal too guys. I might pop over to Cannon Hill on Monday and grab some campden tablets since I'm on holidays for 4 weeks after tomorrow, and I have a brew day planned for a day next week. Seems the easiest method to use.


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## rhino86

It is obvious to me that I need to improve on the QUU tap water I use. I'm currently using the boiling and chilling method as I have no other equipment to improve or test.
The first beer and ginger beer I brewed using the boiling and chilling method, the result was better than I thought. More brewing to come.
The chlorine scent is quite strong in QUU tap water. Thank you for the advice and reports, it will help me improve the methodology and approach for future brews.


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## dirtynidge

Sorry to chime in in this so late. I'm just getting into AG with a Robobrew and was just wondering whether I would be best with Brisbane water (North Pine) or tank water.
I'm not advanced enough at this point to worry about changing water profiles etc, I just want to avoid any off flavours from chlorine/chloromides.

I've been using bottled water for small batch extracts thus far but this seems a bit expensive if unnecessary.

Any thoughts are much appreciated


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## Rocker1986

Tap water is all I use, and now I add minerals depending on style but for a long time I did nothing to it at all and had no problems. If you're worried about the chlorine/chloramines affecting the beer, grab some campden tablets, and simply crush one up and dissolve it in warm water, then add this to your brewing water. It'll break them down and remove them from the water. I use these tablets on every batch now, not because I had problems but because it's an easy way to prevent them occurring in the first place.


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## dirtynidge

Thanks Rocker (aka Otto?!)


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## Coldspace

Yep, brissy tap water is ok, but you will make a better beer with some simple things,

I fill my gf's up the day before or at least several hrs before mashin to allow my mineral additions to dissolve properly,

I run my tap water slowly through one of those cheap carbon inline caravan filters, I then treat my gf with half campden tab, and the sparge water urn with half a tab crushed and stired up well.

If doing hoppy type beers, I dissolve 10 grms of calcium sulphate, 2 grms of magnesium, 4 grms of calcium chloride, into my batch.

If doing lagers or English bitters etc, I use 6 grms calcium sulphate, 2 grms calcium chloride.

These might not be perfect but gets me close. Good enough and since doing this have noticed a nice improvement to my brews.

Cheers


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

The thing is, using straight tap water (hell, I use water from my 3 month old HWS) is not going to produce awful beer. It will produce decent, drinkable beer - all other factors being considered.

But if you want to set your beer a niche above that, that is when water improvements come into play.

I notice that my Brisbane AIPA aren't a patch on my Tassie water profile adjusted AIPA. Not that they're bad beers, but just not what I know I can produce. That's all.


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## Rocker1986

dirtynidge said:


> Thanks Rocker (aka Otto?!)


That's right mate 

I've noticed the hop profiles of my pale ales have improved since I started throwing 10-11g of calcium sulfate and 1-2g of magnesium sulfate into the brewing water (BIAB no sparge), although it might be going too far over. Brisbane water overall is quite low in sulfate, with the SO4 to Cl ratio being about 0.4, which is more geared towards the malty side of things. The ratio on my most recent batches has been closer to 4, so definitely bringing out the hops but it seems to be subduing the malt a little too much so I'll drop the amount down on the next one and see how it goes. Eventually I'll get to a sweet spot and stay there, but the experimenting to find it is a good learning experience.


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## dirtynidge

At risk of sounding a bit of a a newb, where do you get your calcium sulphate and magnesium from?


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## dirtynidge

Thanks to all for advice by the way, I may make some adjustments after all...


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## Rocker1986

I got mine from Craftbrewer (no affil yadda yadda), along with calcium chloride and calcium carbonate. The other two minerals that can be used are bi carb soda and table salt, which are obviously easily available anywhere.

I've found the calcium chloride useful for soaking up moisture in my brew fridge as well.


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## rhino86

A swim in a chlorinated pool should if your a smoker, would if you are not a smoker ignite your sense of smell of chlorine in QUU tap water. Been human is very subjective to write about the quality of water.
Proceeding with the simple simple scientific method, something needs to happen, time is handy yeah, record results. Needs discovery even though you might of endured time far beyond others. Rules in this world are not spoken often. Harmless youth I remember water tasted not too distant from clear running creaks and rivers. The Brisbane river is a disgrace. The Bremer river is even worse of a disgrace, which for the East, North and the South in Brisbane who are unaware has a heavy toll on the Brisbane River. Why does this relate to water for brewing. Well in the case of many overseas provenances and states they have taken more care and action to change towards cleaner water ways. QUU seems to hide in chemical tap water, where before the local council performed a tad more effort and provided a better tasting tap water. Working at government agencys the rumours where thick with some individuals but no proof, some you did not want to mention fluoride unless your calendar was free. 

All I wanted was even flow, similar to the rain just came after the wonderful down pour this afternoon. Man it tastes awesome, not the first wave, the second tastes so much better. Subjective right.
In my patch, I've recorded white and black specs, changes in chemical smells and taste over years. No even flow.of less or more chemicals Yet the bill arrived, ouch. Isn't even fair quality water that what we want to achieve?
So brewers have to use filters, reverse osmosis, water tanks, etc to ensure our quality brewing efforts. Sure tap water is not harmful and taste is subjective, though I can recall a swig of tap water the morning after of a few filtered fine home brew.

Go out to Fernvale or other place 50km from the surrounds of Brisbane and buy the surrounding area milk, I recommend it.
To the tea and coffee lovers, If you have not used the methods for brewing to achieve quality water similar to rain water from the tap. Try brewing your tea and coffee of filtered water, pfft to tap water, the flavour from 3 month old coffee grounds picks up my taste buds in the morning, how could I resist another cup.
Time and effort fellas, money can't buy that.
Water your garden with tap water and expect greenish slow results. Blue couch won't be that desired blueish green colour, it'll be green couch till you change your habits. And waiting can drive me mad.

Back to brewing, since I switched from boiling and chilling in the fridge, which for someone who didn't have 23 litre of containers capacity when I first started. To capturing a bit of rain water and filtering tap water, depth, potential for... a better brew.... Oh how I desire the better brew and enjoy tasting each incremental difference.


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## mstrelan

WTF


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## Rocker1986

Tap water seems to do alright on the blue couch in my yard. To my knowledge it hasn't changed from Digitaria didactyla to Cynodon dactylon based on whether it is watered with tap water or rain water... :blink:


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## Gregos

Nice Hop garden


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## Rocker1986

Thanks mate, it looks a bit better now that they've grown up more.. should grab a pic tomorrow and post it in the hop thread rather than derail this one...

But yeah, the tap water works well in the garden and it works well in my brewing too. The only time I use distilled water is when I brew pilsners.


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## dirtynidge

Thanks to all for the help.

I've made some adjustments based on the advice above and seems good so far (less than a week in bottle). By adding 11g of calcium sulphate and 2g of magnesium sulphate to 30L of tap water. I have hopefully ended up somewhere around "Tasty McDole's Hoppy water profile" (110ppm Ca, 18ppm Mg), which should suit the APA I've brewed fine.

My next brew is an English IPA and am considering Burtonizing the water. By my calculations I need to add 31g of calcium sulphate and 4g of magnesium sulphate to get to the Burton target of 270ppm Ca and 24ppm Mg

This seems a very large adjustment based on previous comments. I know it is an extreme profile but that seems a lot of sulphates.

Does anyone have any experiences with Burtonizing Brissy water? I would hate to ruin a good brew by going OTT with additions.


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## Rocker1986

You need to consider the sulphate and chloride amounts as well, these are what affect the hops and malt influences. Higher sulphate than chloride brings out the hops more, and higher chloride than sulphate brings out the maltiness more. Even stevens on both is a 'balanced' profile.

I don't really take too much notice of the Ca and Mg amounts because they take care of themselves anyway, especially the Ca since the two main salts used for sulphate and chloride additions also add calcium. If the Mg needs a bit of a boost then some of that is added as well.


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## Brewno Marz

For brewers in and around Brisbane, from the QUU water samples collected weekly from 02/02/2016 to 06/03/2017 at Holland Park (source is Green Hill reservoir)

Bicarbonate: mean: 53; min: 46; max: 56; based on alkalinity result converted to bicarbonate (HCO3)
Calcium:  mean: 25; min: 22; max: 31 
Chloride: mean: 67; min: 42; max: 130; note all readings less than 100 except two outliers at 120 and 130
Carbonate: mean: 71; min: 60; max: 90; based on hardness results converted to carbonate (CO3) 
Magnesium: mean: 14; min: 11; max: 17 
Sodium: mean: 40; min: 31; max 56 
Sulfate: mean: 26; min: 20; max: 46; note all readings under 30 except three outliers at 35, 39 & 46

Note: Zinc is at threshold measurement level, so yeast nutrient is recommended.

Based on this analysis achieving a suitable sulfate:chloride ratio for some styles of beer could be a challenge. You will almost always need to add gypsum or epsom salts to up the calcium level as a starting point. What I do is add gypsum per Bru'n Water and I if I need to a more balanced style use hydrochloric acid to manage mash and sparge pH and up the chloride level. If you take appropriate safety precautions hydrochloric acid is a viable alternative. Note: HCl is dangerous if not handled with proper safeguards and HCl for pools is not "food grade", but that said it is used in very low concentrations and has to be safe for use in swimming pools...


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## Hate_Thinking_Up_Usernames

Big Cheers Brewno Marz. Did you request this info from QUU or did you find it on their site? If on their site any chance you can provide a link as I am having trouble finding results that recent.


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## Brewno Marz

I know someone at QUU. It cost me a six pack of my homebrew. I may have made a mistake in converting the alkalinity to bicarbonate and hardness to carbonate. Raw data from the test results is:

Alkalinity: mean: 86.5; min: 76; max: 91
Hardness: mean: 119; min: 100; max: 150


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## Lowlyf

Anyone in or near Strathpine? Sounds like i might need to research a bit more into the water aspect of the beer!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Ferny Grove


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## GABBA110360

just when water is water I asked some questions at the place about my water in Yamba and got a very nice response from the lady there water ain't water in this town as depends on where you are how much chlorine you get etc.
actual numbers she provided was great


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## Lowlyf

I requested a report on my water today from Unity Water. I'll report back once received


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## kingo102

All good info here. I was considering the idea of getting an RO filter and building a profile. There seems to be fair few devices out there - any that come with recommendations from users here (aka for beer). Did you guys end up going with an alkalizer?


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## Rocker1986

I have a water still that I use to distill water to build water profiles (also for use with Starsan) but I only use it for brewing pilsners, as I brew them with very soft water. An RO filter may be cheaper/easier/quicker though. I find making mineral salt additions to the tap water is adequate for other styles. The water profile in Brisbane is pretty stable most of the time, the only time it goes mental is when it rains on the dam catchment areas, like it did today. That effect will probably filter through to the water supply in the coming days or weeks, and then it will drop back to normal again if there's no decent rain for a while.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Biggest issue I'm finding with the water is the alkaline and brewing salts fix it to an extent but without citric or lactic acid or some other pure acidifying agent, gypsum, Epsom etc only do so much.


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## Rocker1986

I usually chuck in some acid malt to paler styles but I'm toying with the idea of adding some citric acid to it as well, just a few grams or whatever's needed. I have plenty of it here as I use it for cleaning my urn and the water still of boil scale after use.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Rocker1986 said:


> I usually chuck in some acid malt to paler styles but I'm toying with the idea of adding some citric acid to it as well, just a few grams or whatever's needed. I have plenty of it here as I use it for cleaning my urn and the water still of boil scale after use.



Where do you get it from?


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## Rocker1986

I just bought mine off eBay, but I guess home brew shops would stock it as well.


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## Matplat

Citric acid is stocked in woolies, but is the most flavor sensitive acid you can get as I understand.

I use hydrochloric from bunnings to combat the alkalinity. A one litre bottle will last a life time.


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## Matplat

Oh wait... you were talking about acid malt...


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Matplat said:


> Oh wait... you were talking about acid malt...


Nah, citric acid. I'll see the hydrochloric but don't anticipate getting it into the house.


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## Matplat

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Nah, citric acid. I'll see the hydrochloric but don't anticipate getting it into the house.


Maybe not the house, but how about the garage/shed (assuming you have one?) I keep mine on a shelf well out of reach of small children along with the plethora of other shit that would be equally detrimental to their health if they got they're hands on it.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I struggle to get bleach into the garage, let alone Hydrochloric acid.


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## Coodgee

you can get lactic acid from craftbrewer, comes in a 500ml plastic bottle. It's not too deadly - better than bleach I should think. I lick it off my fingers from time to time and it's just a really tangy flavour. like eating a green-ant bum (this might be a North queensland kid thing)


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