# Victorian 2017 Xmas Case Swap - Recipe



## Nullnvoid (10/7/17)

Alright guys, lets hear your thoughts on what we should brew for the 2017 Christmas Case Swap.

I'm green so open to suggestions. I would prefer a IPA or IIPA or something of similiar ilk, but it's what the majority want.

Discuss.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (10/7/17)

Pirate Life IIPA clone it is then...?


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## GrumpyPaul (10/7/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Pirate Life IIPA clone it is then...?


That would work for me.


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## micbrew (10/7/17)

What .. no hotdog ale [emoji13]


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## Nullnvoid (10/7/17)

micbrew said:


> What .. no hotdog ale [emoji13]



We have a winner! Or is it weiner!


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## technobabble66 (10/7/17)

Westy 8 !!!
Leffe Blonde or Gulden Draak

Or an IPA/DIPA. (The Pliny the Elder could easily be repeated).

Edit: Obviously something with oats in it is required.


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## Mardoo (10/7/17)

7-8% hoppy Amber


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## technobabble66 (10/7/17)

^ That'll work!


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## Nullnvoid (10/7/17)

All good suggestions, keep em coming!


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## husky (10/7/17)

We need 2 recipes or 1? Has a precedent been set?


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## Mardoo (11/7/17)

A weissbier and a hoppy Amber. Both good summer drinking.

And yes, the precedent has been set it seems. Damn I wish I could have been there!


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/7/17)

For Stu's sake, it should be an Oatzbier...


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## malt junkie (11/7/17)

I'd note a few things that would make the Friday brew smoother.

All grain on site and milled before 5pm (preferably milled in the days prior).

strike water on the go early afternoon. (mash in was around 730)

Don't twist ankle when brewing Friday night (ankle is currently small melon size)

finish well before 3am.


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## technobabble66 (11/7/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> For Stu's sake, it should be an Oatzbier...



Please. The word is Haferbier. 

[emoji1]

And I totally agree.


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## Nullnvoid (11/7/17)

So I guess there are now a couple of other things to consider. Do we keep the Friday night brew as a dogs breakfast or is it, it's own brew? If so, we probably need another head brewer to take on that one. I'm happy to do one, not sure my energy levels could cope with two  But I'm also up for a challenge.

Also if a second brew, do we have a seperate thread so not to get the two confused. We have 6 months, and these threads tend to come and go and get quite long by the end.

Discuss.


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## technobabble66 (11/7/17)

Fwiw, Saturday could be a big beer, then run a partigyle off it for the 2nd. 
We could go down this route especially if the Gyle works as a saison, I reckon. The Gyle from the Westy12 turned out to be a fantastic saison. I s'pose a light hoppy mid-strength ale or pacific ale might work also. 

So for me, I'd probably favour the Big Hoppy Amber for the main, but I'm not sure how that grist will go as a partigyle Belgian. Depends on the recipe of course, but I've found some darker grains produce "interesting" results in saisons (though maybe a Belgian strong yeast would be fine... Hmmm). 
Just throwing thoughts out here at the mo'

Edit: +1 to MJ's post a couple above


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## Nullnvoid (11/7/17)

technobabble66 said:


> Just throwing thoughts out here at the mo'



Yeah, that's what it's about. Thread is less than 24 hours old and we have 6 months. No need to pin something down right away.

But if I read correctly, you are talking 3 beers? Friday night, then a big beer Saturday, leading into a Saison or similiar. That's a **** load of cubes. Do we know anyone that can access heaps of cubes??


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## technobabble66 (11/7/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> So I guess there are now a couple of other things to consider. Do we keep the Friday night brew as a dogs breakfast or is it, it's own brew? If so, we probably need another head brewer to take on that one. I'm happy to do one, not sure my energy levels could cope with two  But I'm also up for a challenge.
> 
> Also if a second brew, do we have a seperate thread so not to get the two confused. We have 6 months, and these threads tend to come and go and get quite long by the end.
> 
> Discuss.



Can be either, depends on contributors of the ingredients to some extent. And how well this recent one turns out [emoji1]
I'd favour having a recipe, though, for sure. I prefer plans and quantitative targets. Casual is fine, though, if that's the consensus. Especially if we're using Something English hops ... 

Might be good to have both the Friday & Saturday recipes on the same thread, just so the recipes might compliment each other &/or the selection process might be a bit more cohesive. And if we're buying ingredients for the Friday brew, might be handy to have it all in one spot to see the overall ingredients list. We should be clever enough to differentiate between the 2 recipes through the thread. Maybe start it all together and if that's a balls up, split to a 2nd?

I'd also suggest it might be good for Saturday's head brewer to attend the Friday night, and maybe one of us who's done it before to run the Friday night. That way it might be a good use of the opportunity to have Friday night as a quick & casual educational crash course in large scale brewing on the big rig. I know we're not talking rocket science here, but it might help bring more guys into the lofty ranks of Head Big Brewer [emoji1].


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## technobabble66 (11/7/17)

Hey, if we're all set up and rocking Friday night, after the MLTs are drained, they could be emptied and then the Saturday grist mashed in and left overnight. That way it's ready to rock at wake-up!!
Between Wayne & Idzy's big kettles, we should have plenty hot water to hit strike while the Friday night's brew is boiling. 
Basically just heat the 550L water, mill the grist and empty into MLTs, flood in the strike water. Seal. Jobs done until Saturday! 
And if the Saturday HB is there, they can take all that process over as soon as the sparge is drained out of the last MLT for the Friday brew.


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## Nullnvoid (11/7/17)

technobabble66 said:


> I'd also suggest it might be good for Saturday's head brewer to attend the Friday night, and maybe one of us who's done it before to run the Friday night. That way it might be a good use of the opportunity to have Friday night as a quick & casual educational crash course in large scale brewing on the big rig. I know we're not talking rocket science here, but it might help bring more guys into the lofty ranks of Head Big Brewer
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like me for example.....hahahaha 

But yeah, I should be there Friday night. Have more excuse if I am the Head Brewer on Saturday.


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## technobabble66 (11/7/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> But if I read correctly, you are talking 3 beers? Friday night, then a big beer Saturday, leading into a Saison or similiar. That's a **** load of cubes. Do we know anyone that can access heaps of cubes??


Yes, that's it in a nutshell.
FWIW, the Partigyle run-off last time was only a few hundred litres, so the post-boil volume was something like 150-200L, i think. So what i'd suggest is maybe have everyone just fill 10L cubes off that one. (unless there's only a few takers for it). It also makes for a great "starter" batch for the bigger beer; and 10L is heaps for that.


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## malt junkie (11/7/17)

I wouldn't strike saturdays brew until the morning. I would have grain in tuns, and bring strike water to boil, by the morning at strike it will still be hot only requiring a short heat up, that way we may even be cubing in daylight


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## Nullnvoid (11/7/17)

malt junkie said:


> that way we may even be cubing in daylight



So we can start on Sunday's brew??


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## malt junkie (11/7/17)

The other question is batch size, there is the opportunity to brew 450- 750L, the cube list could then go out to 30 odd, also if doing a Friday brew a separate cubers list, and perhaps base batch size on list numbers.


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## MartinOC (11/7/17)

****! 

I obviously created a monster with the suggestion of a Friday night brew-session. Perhaps I took it a bridge too far (even 'though it got done). I humbly apologise to the guys that had to finish it without me.

Yes, it worked this time, but it relied on just a few dedicated hands to get it finished. I piked early at 12.30am after emptying the MLT due to a screamingly painful shoulder blade. 

I reckon a nice, cruisy Saturday is the go, with a PLANNED parti-gyle batch.

What say ye Gentlemen?


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## droid (11/7/17)

my2C

the parti-gyle type of thing sounds good
a high OG and a good balanced acidity with the malt, leaving a flexible wort for each and all to manipulate at their will is my like
The winter swap here might have decoctions and or candi and or fruit - but will all be done on the Saturday, imho Friday should be for milling and pontification about the process.

Russ - if you favor the IPA style then I reckon Madhu is on the money, it can be thinned out a bit and if someone wants to cube hop, if they've got their shit together they'll be able to alter that base profile on the night


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## TheWiggman (11/7/17)

Agree. Gonna weigh in in case I make it. One of my best brews was an EBW which had a fair whack of honey in the boil. Runnings were about the 1.075 mark with honey to 1.090, with a serendipitous 2.5h boil. The second runnings could be an English bitter or similar. I love the idea of tipping a few kg of honey late in the boil, imagine the smell of that and Target.


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## Danscraftbeer (11/7/17)

My humble experiences at home I agree instead of 2 brews just the one. One big heavy one. 
The option to top up cubes with boiling water? 
Take 2 cubes. One for the heavy straight version. One for the diluted version. Alternate, maybe simpler Parti-gyle? 
2c..


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## DJ_L3ThAL (12/7/17)

Yep. This swap just done, the Friday was for challenging us on the BFK and for system-proving purposes. So using the Friday as a less stressful, setup and pontification (word of the month) is a solid plan. It also allows for a successful big beer to be started Saturday morning first thing (cos them COCK-atoos will get us up) so a partigyle can be had at the later stages with less stress whilst under the influence and also worrying about pulled pork prep and swapping the beers, ay.


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## Nullnvoid (12/7/17)

I also think 1 unless it's just a dogs breakfast brew on the Friday night. Why make it more stressful and busier than it needs to be. I know we seem to like challenging ourselves and making it more and more epic every time but there has to be a limit doesn't there?

I'm still favouring the IPA style, but Mardoo's higher gravity sounds good and then we can partigyle. Surely that's challenging enough?


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## technobabble66 (12/7/17)

Seems like the start of consensus. 
1) Just a single brew day on Saturday; unless there's enough peeps with grain they want to get rid of to do a dog's breakfast brew (guessing this'll only happen every couple of years). 
2) Aim for 1 big beer, followed by a second runnings beer later in the day. 

Sounds good to me!


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## technobabble66 (12/7/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> ...
> I'm still favouring the IPA style, but Mardoo's higher gravity sounds good and then we can partigyle. Surely that's challenging enough?


The hoppy Amber Mardoo suggested should be highly versatile.
Hoppy ambers are basically a bit like an APA, but if we embiggen it to 7-8%, it'll need a big whack of hops to offset the malts, so it should be easy to convert it to an IPA with extra cube hopping if that's what someone wanted. Similarly (with moderate cube hopping) it could be diluted down to 4-5% if you wanted a regular Amber. 
Fwiw, Amber IPAs & Red IPAs (& ales even) are basically the same thing, just slight differences. So it's maybe a choice of what version of malty, toasty or caramelly Strong Ale would you prefer; and then for cube hopping the choice of moderate or super hoppy? [emoji4]


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## idzy (14/7/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Pirate Life IIPA clone it is then...?


Sounds good to me


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## idzy (14/7/17)

The problem with Friday nights is setting up the gear. It was fine this time because Malt Junkie and I were there the majority of the day getting everything ready. The gear was already on location and made for an easier set up. When we are doing nomadic gypsie brewing, it makes it a lot more difficult and I can't necessarily commit to having all of my gear available for a 5pm mash-in on the Friday night.

As many have suggested, gear set up on the Friday. Early mash-in on the Saturday, with a potential parti-gyle in the afternoon and then if people are keen a Saturday night brew rather than Friday night. This will allow for more people to help out with both brews and for cubing/clean up to be spread between everyone too.

I am thinking that some sort of tradition or benchmark will be created and then we will realise the next case swap is at Eagle Point...lol


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## technobabble66 (14/7/17)

Agree


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## technobabble66 (17/8/17)

1 month later ... Any further thoughts on this, Rusty?

Leaning towards an Amber IPA (~7%), followed by a partigyle Amber/copper mild(-ish) (~4-4.5%)?


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## MartinOC (17/8/17)

I'm in & up for anything that goes down (I can't decide if I'm up or down), as long as I don't get to wear the high-Viz vest for at least another couple of these. Happy to chip-in & help-out otherwise.

Russ??


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## Nullnvoid (18/8/17)

I really like the idea of the Amber IPA, so I think we will lock that in  Now onwards towards a recipe  Then will have to organise consumables I suppose. Who do we know that deals in large quantities for goods


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## Nullnvoid (18/8/17)

Basically I just want that sexy vest


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## Nullnvoid (21/8/17)

Should we organise a recipe and jump on this grain bulk buy or is too early to order grain.

Thoughts?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (21/8/17)

Good idea Russ, BB is a great opportunity and allows us to lock recipe early and focus on all the other things we need to sort [emoji106]


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## malt junkie (21/8/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Good idea Russ, BB is a great opportunity and allows us to lock recipe early and focus on all the other things we need to sort [emoji106]


Like the RIS for friday night!


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## DJ_L3ThAL (21/8/17)

Cmon, chocolate port goes down smoother than RIS in summer, ask VP Brewing...


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## JB (21/8/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Cmon, chocolate port goes down smoother than RIS in summer, ask VP Brewing...



Only if it's for breakfast just ask Reardo


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## MartinOC (21/8/17)

You am 'de Boss-man with the vest..

Grain will keep for a couple of months, no sweat.


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## MartinOC (21/8/17)

malt junkie said:


> Like the RIS for friday night!


I've got a couple of pre-prepared shallow graves down the back of my place for people like you..


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## malt junkie (21/8/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Cmon, chocolate port goes down smoother than RIS in summer, ask VP Brewing...


Said by a man who hasn't had 'Old Money' pass his lips, Blasphemy!!!


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## Nullnvoid (21/8/17)

Ok cool, well let's nut out a recipe and then we can jump in on this bulk buy . 

I haven't done any recipes like this before so does anyone have any suggestions? I did some googling (because the search on this place is fucked) and came up with a couple of recipes, but they seemed rather basic. Knowing you guys it's not meant to be that basic . Or is it . 

Happy for some input at this stage and I can bigger it up


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## technobabble66 (21/8/17)

we're going the Amber IPA, yeah?


If so, is there a "type" of amber you're more keen on? Malty, Biscuity, or Caramelly?


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## Nullnvoid (21/8/17)

That's correct


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## technobabble66 (21/8/17)

Just chucked this together. Obviously i haven't brewed this. So you might want to try to find one that's already been brewed. 
But anyway, i'll throw this out there:

*Amberlicious Amazeballs*
22L
OG=1.065
FG=1.014 (for 65°C mash, 75% attenuation yeast)
EBC=24.4
IBU=66
alc=6.8%

77.5% TFMO
10% Munich 2
5% Heritage Crystal
5% Victory
2.5% Melanoiden

10g Simcoe @ FWH (12.8 IBU)
15g Chinook + 10g Simcoe @ 40mins (@ Whirlpool) (27.3 IBUs)
10g Chinook + 15g Simcoe + 10g Citra @20mins (cubed) (26 IBUs)

US-05, BRY-97, 1272, M44, M42, etc, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------

How's that sound as a starting place for the discussion?


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## Nullnvoid (21/8/17)

And we are off and racing 

I'll chuck the recipes I have found up shortly as well.


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## laxation (21/8/17)

Is the idea still to then do a second one after that? What would that look like with that recipe?


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## technobabble66 (21/8/17)

You mean a partigyle from the second running of the mash, yeah?
I'm not sure what the verdict on that was. But I'd suspect it'll just be a wait & see option. If the last run off from the mash is still kinda high, then it might be worthwhile flooding another 100+ L of sparge into it to get enough volume for a 2nd beer. 
And if not, then it'll be a simpler brew day!
However, it'll probably only be 100-200L total volume into cubes at the end, and it'll probably be 3.5-4.5% alc. 
We should be able to work it out on the fly if it turns out we can do it. 
Because we're awesome brewers. [emoji6] 
So long as we/someone brings enough provisions for it (eg: some extra hops, salts, etc).


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## Nullnvoid (22/8/17)

Here is a recipe I found:

88.7% Pale Ale - US
5.9% CaraMunich II - DE
4.9% Crystal 120L - CA
0.5% Chocolate Malt - US

18.99 Magnum Pellet Boil 90 Minutes
13.89 Amarillo Pellet Boil 20 Minutes
13.89 Centennial Pellet Boil 20 Minutes
28.07 Amarillo Pellet Boil 10 Minutes
28.07 Centennial Pellet Boil 10 Minutes

3 Days Dry Hopping
- Amarillo: 50 gr 
- centennial: 50 gr


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## MartinOC (22/8/17)

KISS!

Keep the bittering to a single charge of something simple (like Magnum) & add the later hops just before cubing once it gets to about 80C (ie. no isomerisation).

If doing a parti-gyle brew with late hops, factor-in a 10% utilisation from the "spent" hops still in the kettle & adjust any further additions as required.

Have LDME on-hand to make any BU:GU adjustments.


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## TheWiggman (22/8/17)

Last swap -
_[The boil has completed and burners shut off, the brewers look around for a paddle for the whirlpool]_
Mofox: "Hang on, what's this bag of EKG? 300g, it has 90 mins written on it. ****."
Others: _*laugher*_
Mofox: "What should I do? I can't believe I missed it"
Husky: "Just chuck it in"
Me: "Throw it in man"
Techno: "I'm of a similar inclination of the others, it will have _some_ impact on the bitterness being slightly later in the..."
Mofox: _*tips hops in at whirlpool*_

Edited for truth


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## Nullnvoid (22/8/17)

Do we have to kiss before we put the bittering hops in? And everyone or just the man in the vest


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## mofox1 (22/8/17)

No it didn't!
.
.
.
.
.
It said 60!

Bahaha... Actually it's pretty good. On tap now. Could do with a bit more body, but overall I'm pretty happy with it.


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## mofox1 (22/8/17)

And I think it was 300g.

Ed: yes, 300g. But at 90min, not 60.


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## malt junkie (22/8/17)

mofox1 said:


> No it didn't!
> .
> .
> .
> ...


I'm sure I put that in a tulip .... oh yeah I did next to the same pot of spuds...sorta.

Sippin on this with the eldest son, he hates coffee, and as this is still a lil young he's sippin slowly.


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## MartinOC (22/8/17)

I think I just pissed myself 

'Sure I've made the same mistake a few times, just not on such a monumental scale


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## MartinOC (22/8/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> Do we have to kiss before we put the bittering hops in? And everyone or just the man in the vest


You dictate any & every condition you want, Russ, but I ain't swapping bodily fluids with you under any circumstances..


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## Nullnvoid (24/8/17)

Anymore thoughts on this?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (24/8/17)

Malt spectrum between yours and Stus is quite broad. Shall we meet somewhat halfway and employ the bittering only hop addition regime so peeps can cube hope to their liking? (Or get hop packs ordered to suit as cube hops like the last two)?
2c


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## Nullnvoid (24/8/17)

I think the bittering only hop is a good idea and peeps can just cube hope with reckless abandon!


**I hate bad spelling, so I had to fix my own**


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## Mardoo (25/8/17)

Fully agree, particularly if we're looking at a hoppy amber. Seems to me with hoppy swap beers, either leave it wide open, or lock it down with a known like Pliny.


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## Mardoo (25/8/17)

OK, here's my suggestion, this is scaled for 425L:

125 kilos Simpsons Golden Promise (could also be Barrett Burston Pale) 85%
7 kilos Simpsons Amber 5%
7 kilos Wey Caramunich III 5%
7 kilos Gladfield Supernova 5%
(Percentages are rounded, but actually a couple tenths of a percent different, 85.6% and 4.8% respectively.)

Golden Promise brings a sweet background for the hops to play against. Barrett would dry it out more.
Supernova brings caramel flavours without sweetness.
Caramunich III brings darker caramel flavours with a malty punch.
Amber brings some biscuit and nuttiness, as well as emphasizing fruity flavours, again for the hops.

I'm a big fan of ambers with some fruit and caramel, or, like the Modus Operandi Red Tenant, FLAVOUR! Amber beers that are just beer that is amber give me the shits. I figure if you're going to make it amber, use the amber flavour palette. BTW, I haven't brewed this, but am planning to give it a bash soon. I have been brewing Jamil's West Coast Amber as it's in the ballpark of what I like, but it's a damn fiddly recipe.

I'd prefer to use Carabohemian instead of the Caramunich, but it isn't available in the buy this time.

Any opinions?

EDIT: Oops, 1.073 so you can dilute at fermenting or hit it hard with the Hop Stick. Should ferment well on many different yeasts. 

The Amber could easily be dropped for Biscuit. You could also drop the Amber entirely and change the base malt to Maris Otter. I suggested GP as it's my fave IPA malt, or BB as it drys out well.

Edit 63: Derpa derpa derp…30 IBU's up front, rest from late hopping.


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## malt junkie (25/8/17)

Of note we now have a 900L kettle to play with should we ramp out to 600L odd. Seems we always have more peeps wanting to cube than we have volume, and going by the two brews we did in July there was easily mash length to do it. (as yet not on the cubers list)


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## Mardoo (25/8/17)

Yep, no reason not to go big volume if we have mash space.


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## Nullnvoid (25/8/17)

Looks good Mardoo! I was wondering if you were going to enter the discussion 

Love the rational behind your choices too. I have so much to learn.


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## JB (25/8/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> Looks good Mardoo! I was wondering if you were going to enter the discussion
> 
> Love the rational behind your choices too. I have so much to learn.



We are all but humble grasshoppers!


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## Nullnvoid (25/8/17)

JB said:


> We are all but humble grasshoppers!



You said Glasshoppers wrong


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## Mardoo (25/8/17)

Great thing about brewing, we'll never stop learning.


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## husky (25/8/17)

Mardoo said:


> Yep, no reason not to go big volume if we have mash space.



If it helps get us to 600L I could bring a MT that can hold 60kg grain also. How much do Idzy's eskys hold?


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## Mardoo (25/8/17)

I'll have my 180L MT set up by then. 

Idzy's are around 700 all up, IIRC


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## MartinOC (25/8/17)

Erm....do we REALLY need to continue to strive for high OG's on these Case Swap brews?

As pointed out somewhere ('can't remember - 'been drinking...), there's a lot of folks that would like to participate as cubists on these things, so we could lower the gravity & up the volume.

Husky's kettle will definitely handle the volume, so why not go a bit on the conservative side & rope-in a throng of potentially new AG brewers to help out, learn how it all works & get to know each other better?

Plus, the newbies get to do the clean-up as part of their learning curve/apprenticeship.......


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## Nullnvoid (25/8/17)

I'm more than happy to do a lower og beer. We have his habit of doing massive beers and I think a nice ipa would he good for something different.


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## mofox1 (25/8/17)

You must mean like a Pliny, yes? [emoji12]


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## MartinOC (25/8/17)

mofox1 said:


> You must mean like a Pliny, yes? [emoji12]


Consider yourself cyber-spanked for being a hopeless juice-junky.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (25/8/17)

Just googled cyber-spank... no turning back now.


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## Danscraftbeer (25/8/17)

Mardoo said:


> OK, here's my suggestion, this is scaled for 425L:
> 
> 125 kilos Simpsons Golden Promise (could also be Barrett Burston Pale) 85%
> 7 kilos Simpsons Amber 5%
> ...



My thought straight off reading this is. I like the idea. Sounds awesome. New World Ale. Dilution able!
Base as is will be an awesome beer or cube hop it up. 
One beer being able to multiple options. That's what the swap beers have always been about init?


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## Mardoo (25/8/17)

Not impossible Mr. OC, but somewhat implausible  5L of water added to an 11L cube of this one will give you 1.051. But yeah, a nice pale ale could be good.

Just for shits and giggles I whacked up a Beersmith file of this proposition. I'll post it here with a .pdf of the info for anyone with too much time on their hands but not enough Beersmith. It assumes Idzy (or all of us together) actually has 700L of mashtun.

EDIT: I tried to get a bit realistic about ramp times, etc. If anyone has any input that would help me refine the equipment profile, I can post that for others mucking about with recipes.


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## Mardoo (25/8/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Just googled cyber-spank... no turning back now.


You should really google Japanese Hairy Yam. Good times.


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## Danscraftbeer (25/8/17)

Ha! that opens up in my Beersmith. That's a first, for me...
I guess it needs some guide chart, or something like.
Dilute at this rate you will get ~estimated (OG, IBU, Color) then up to the cubist to chose the cube hop addition and calculations of IBU?


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## mofox1 (25/8/17)

MartinOC said:


> Consider yourself cyber-spanked for being a hopeless juice-junky.


You could just owe me one ;-)


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## Mardoo (25/8/17)

Interesting question. I would cube hop for the OG, and the dilution "should" diminish IBU in proportion, but that's 100% Pure Guessanium.


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## Danscraftbeer (25/8/17)

Mardoo said:


> Interesting question. I would cube hop for the OG, and the dilution "should" diminish IBU in proportion, but that's 100% Pure Guessanium.


You could hack it out in beersmith to get close enough. Cubists enthusiastic enough could plan their little satchel of cube hops and I guess there needs to be some boiling water on tap at the time for the option of dilution cubed. That might be as simple as as, I'm not sure. 
I have a 50l keggle and a stable solid burner. Pain in the arse to transport though.


----------



## laxation (25/8/17)

Mardoo said:


> You should really google Japanese Hairy Yam. Good times.


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## Mardoo (25/8/17)

Danscraftbeer said:


> You could hack it out in beersmith to get close enough. Cubists enthusiastic enough could plan their little satchel of cube hops and I guess there needs to be some boiling water on tap at the time for the option of dilution cubed. That might be as simple as as, I'm not sure. .



That's an interesting idea.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (26/8/17)

Mardoo said:


> You should really google Japanese Hairy Yam. Good times.








?


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## Mardoo (26/8/17)

Exactly what I was looking for. But I didn't have safe search on...


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## Mardoo (26/8/17)

Here's a lower gravity one as an example. I've drunk plenty of this, but it shows the typical American many-malt dick waving. Not my recipe, just downloaded it as an example.


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## Nullnvoid (26/8/17)

I have some questions. If we are going to try the partigyle, isn't it worth having the Rustylicious Amber IPA (working title) up higher like Mardoo's original recipe?

If it doesn't matter it being lower, can we just adjust the recipe so it's a lower gravity?

I think the simple amount of malt in the first recipe will be a nice change.


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## technobabble66 (26/8/17)

What's the general theory that we're going with here?
Do an Amber IPA that peeps can dilute down to an APA/Amber if they want, or do an Amber Ale that peeps can boost up (with, say, dex or candy syrup) to be an Amber IPA if they want?

Just quickly throwing an example into the ol spreadsheet, if we do an Amber Ale at ~5.3% (OG=1.050, 30IBUs (35% from FWH, 65% from cube)), this can easily be boosted up to an Amber IPA with 0.5kg dex/syrup & ~double the hops in the cube.

Though i'd generally prefer to brew stronger then dilute down if desired, it seems better/easier to brew the 5%'er so we can get lots more cubes out of the batch (as per MOC's suggestion). It's a piece of cake to simply increase the cube hops & chuck in some dex to get the IPA if that's what's wanted by the individual.


FWIW, that recipe from Mardoo with 85/5/5/5 seemed fine.
I'd probably drop the caramunich 3 down to 2, or swap it for Med Crystal - i prefer to get that "mid level" caramel from med crystal rather than the deeper/darker caramel/toffee from dark crystal (but i don't have much experience with darker crystal, tbh).
Also, i'd be inclined to go a bit of choc malt to hit some more toasty elements, though it looks like the Supernova should do that (?). Finally, if we want a (very) malty Amber, i'd be tempted to go some Melanoiden malt (namely 5%). However, it's probably best to avoid going down that route, as the heavier maltiness will probably get in the way of the hops, for both the AAA & the Amber IPA.
Similarly, is it worth looking at 10-20% Munich (dark munich, ftw!!) to get a little mellow maltiness. Again, not sold on this option, but seems like an obvious option for an amber ale.
All just my opinion, and quite happy to go with it as it is and see what happens . Just throwing some suggestions out there for the discussion. 

EDIT: @Nullnvoid, depends if you can be bothered trying to get a second runnings partigyle. If we go high, then get some second runnings, we're probably only getting another 5-10 cubes off it (likely 5). If we go lower for a straight Amber Ale, we may well end up with an extra 5 cubes anyway from having a more diluted wort to begin with.
In a sense, we're kinda restrained by the mash size. So either way, there's only so much we can extract. Do we look at 22x 6.5% beers plus 5-6x 4% beers, or 30x 5% beers? Seems easier to just do the 5%'er and make for an easier brew day.


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## Mardoo (26/8/17)

FWIW, volume-wise, we'e limited to around 600L by boiler size, unless we run both Husky and Idzy's kettles. The 2 recipes I posted are both configured for Husky's boiler alone, and Idzy's 700L of mash space. If we want more than 30 cubes, we can do a lower gravity beer and run both boilers.


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## technobabble66 (26/8/17)

Is husky's only delivering 600L?
I thought it was a 900L kettle, so good for ~700L final vol output (?).

Edit: yo @husky, what's the max output of your kettle. Ie: after the maximum "comfortable" volume has been boiled for 60-90mins?


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## husky (26/8/17)

Total theoretical volume is just over 900L. The boil was very late in the night so cant recall what our boil off was but when we got to the boil there was no massive eruptions so I would have thought 800L pre boil volume could be a target. Then allow maybe 8% boil off and 40L kettle losses and ignore cooling shrinkage should be 660L ish into cubes. If we wanted to push it I'd say we could aim for 700L and a bit less boil off and recover more at the end as we did last time. We cubed all the way to a few L left but those last cubes did have a fair bit of trub I suspect.


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## technobabble66 (27/8/17)

Thanks husky.
FWIW, 700L at 100°C equates to 660L cold, or 660L boiling equates to 623L cold.
If we target ~680L hot, we should be able to get 30 cubes (at 21L each) plus 30L trub. So if we hit slightly under target, we should still get the 30 cubes with a little tipping at the end.

So what's the mash max volume we can do? Are we just using Idzy's MLTs?
From memory, Idzy's MLTs were 300L each, and we were hitting ~275L into each of them with the Westy12 clone. The Westy12 had 153kg of grain split between the 2 MLTs (so ratio ~3.7 L/kg), hitting ~460L final volume. 
So if we adjust the final volume up to 630L, or rather 650-660L final volume (including the trub loss), then we're still hitting 6% with the 153kg grain.

That would suggest we can push the volume up to 660ish L (from what husky's said) and either keep the ~155kg grain bill to hit ~6% beer, or reduce it a little to make a 5% beer and make the mash a little easier (with ~130kg grain total).

Just my quick arithmetic, but might give us a few quantified options for a slightly more informed decision. 

Mofox might be able to chip in with the figures from the stout in July to get a better idea of the numbers... Is there a Michael in the house?


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## malt junkie (27/8/17)

I would say we're still leaving a crap load of sugars in those tuns, if we recirc the sparg in the first then pump to the second and recir, then a second sparg on the second to possibly do the same (but in reverse). I realise that KISS is the order of the day, but if the head brewer has a few hands on deck when switching this stuff around it won't be too difficult to push the efficiency 5 or more points. I think both Mofox and I ended up with a bucket of runnings left over @1050 odd, and that was just draining so we could empty tuns.


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## Dr_Rocks (27/8/17)

malt junkie said:


> I would say we're still leaving a crap load of sugars in those tuns, if we recirc the sparg in the first then pump to the second and recir, then a second sparg on the second to possibly do the same (but in reverse). I realise that KISS is the order of the day, but if the head brewer has a few hands on deck when switching this stuff around it won't be too difficult to push the efficiency 5 or more points. I think both Mofox and I ended up with a bucket of runnings left over @1050 odd, and that was just draining so we could empty tuns.


I'm more than happy to nominate myself to be a brewer's bitch if that helps to lock down or finalise a recipe/method. 

Never brewed anywhere near this volume before and keen to see the process up close and personal.


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## Mardoo (27/8/17)

So then theoretically we could get Husky's kettle at 1.075 and Idzy's kettle at 1.050? We could even chuck a bit more grain on for the second sparge if we don't mash out.

Let's get onto the size, process and gravity decisions soon so we can decide about recipe. I'm going to try to do a trial brew of my suggested recipe to see whether it's crap or not. Being a essentially a DIPA I can push it from brew day to keg pretty quickly.

EDIT: Kerrrsnap!!! Dayum, it's been awhile since I've purchased malt at single-batch retail. Feckin' hell!


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## Mardoo (27/8/17)

Dr_Rocks said:


> I'm more than happy to nominate myself to be a brewer's bitch if that helps to lock down or finalise a recipe/method.
> 
> Never brewed anywhere near this volume before and keen to see the process up close and personal.


It's fantastic, and you realise there's not a lot of difference between 20 litres and 1000 litres. Just bigger. And you have to think a hell of a lot more about what your mashtuns and boilers are sitting on.


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## Mardoo (29/8/17)

OK, after a malt tasting session this arvo I've made some changes to the test brew this weekend. I'm planning on brewing this either Saturday or Sunday. I think the grain percentages I'll go with for my test brew are:

83% Golden Promise
7.5% Simpson's Heritage Crystal
5% Gladfield Supernova (an interesting malt, BTW, toasty with distinct dark caramel flavours and zero sweetness - it's a roasted malt)
4.5% Biscuit malt

There were just too many dark flavours in my other proposed grain bill. I would love to use that bill for an English-style ale, but it's not right for a hoppy amber, in my book.


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## malt junkie (29/8/17)

Mardoo said:


> OK, after a malt tasting session this arvo I've made some changes to the test brew this weekend. I'm planning on brewing this either Saturday or Sunday. I think the grain percentages I'll go with for my test brew are:
> 
> 83% Golden Promise
> 7.5% Simpson's Heritage Crystal
> ...


I'd ask what time the snags go on, but I think I'm grounded. Not to mention the brew related task that need completing at home.


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## Mardoo (29/8/17)

It occurs to me that we could brew it as a relatively full-bodied beer around 1.057 and then those who wish can add 10% sugar to boost alcohol and thin out the body.


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## technobabble66 (29/8/17)

^^ yeah, i'd agree. I was thinking through the 2 options while typing a post (#95) and it seems the better/easier option to do a slightly lower OG beer and let peeps crank it with some dex rather than do it the other way around.

The new recipe tweak looks better. I had some doubts on that CM3  along with the other darker stuff. 
The only aspect i'd see as debatable is the 4.5% biscuit component - just to decide whether to use biscuit/victory, aromatic or melanoiden (i love all 3, so it's hard to resist saying use all of them! ). 
Not that i'd disagree with biscuit, just that those options give a slightly different twist on the basic recipe, so it's simply a choice of which direction to push it. 
I think we're both thinking similarly - to restrain the deep/strong maltiness so that the hops stand out better (hence, no Munich, as an example). So i'd probably avoid the melanoiden. Which leaves maybe just a choice between Biscuit & Aromatic. 
I'd say it depends how toasty/roasty the Supernova is, and at whether the resulting beer from the %-age used is enough to push that appropriately. If it's enough, i'd go Aromatic; if it's not, i'd back it with the Biscuit/Victory. I'd think the only way to know if to do a batch and find out, so go with the biscuit and let us know how it turns out .

BTW, i love Heritage crystal, and find it lends a deep maltiness along with the Med Crystal tones. Again, if it seems the test batch is a little too malty and hides the hops, maybe that's an option to change back to simple ol' Med Crystal. But i suspect it'll work nicely in the current recipe to add enough maltiness to be right for an Amber.

Just throwing my thoughts into the discussion!


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## Mardoo (29/8/17)

Yeah, the percentages I listed are for the higher gravity brew. I'd change them for a lower gravity one. 

I included melanoidin in my tasting, but it didn't make the cut for the same reasons you mention. The clean, sweet malt of the GP pairs so well with the hops, and more overt maltiness takes the grain bill a different direction. The Simpsons aromatic and Wey Abbey also moved the bill away from what I'm thinking. 

Anyone else have a recipe to put up?


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## malt junkie (29/8/17)

I like too much where your going, though with Techno on the aroma/biscuit, end of the day if your going to do a test batch, go with your head and lets see where it ends up.


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## Mardoo (29/8/17)

Whaddaya mean? You think more restrained on the biscuit? I've thought about stepping that down some.


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## malt junkie (29/8/17)

If your doing a run this W/E I stick with what you have, if you find the malt is pushing a little too much, back it off or go with Aromatic. 
5c


I ain't that cheap


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## Mardoo (29/8/17)

You mean Dingeman's aromatic? Last I heard Dingeman's is no longer being imported.


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## technobabble66 (29/8/17)

Yeah, Ding Aromatic, it's the only one i've used. It's totes amazeballs! 
If it's not a lager, i'd generally go with >5% for Biscuit. I like what it brings, and i like to taste it! But i'm willing to consider your 4.5% this time 
I find the biscuit is reasonably malty, but not too strongly so, and adds a nice "dry biscuit/cracker" taste. 
Whereas i find Aromatic to be similar in magnitude with the maltiness, maybe even a little stronger, but it's a smooth, lighter, sweeter maltiness; not as deep & distinct as melanoiden (& Biscuit/amber/victory) but prominent. Hence it's the bomb for me in ~95% pils/ale base malt Belgians that have that lighter honey malt flavour as it deepens it a bit and compliments it well.
So in this, Aromatic, for me, would compliment the GP well, whereas the Biscuit would slightly contrast the GP a little. Both of which could work well


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## Mardoo (29/8/17)

I do have some Ding Aro, and didn't include it in the tasting because of its limited availability. If it's the one though, we'd have to find a source for it. I'll see how much Brewman has on hand. I'm pretty sure he ordered up due to Dingeman's not being distributed anymore.


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## malt junkie (29/8/17)

Well got me stuffed, I don't think Dingeman still ship to Australia, I note our clever friends don't stock it, I've got maybe 200g but that ain't going to help anything cept my next belgian. ( there was talk some time back of dingeman droping out of the Aussie market can't remember which way they went)


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## Mardoo (29/8/17)

Yeah, the distributor dropped Dingeman's entire line. I'll see what Brewman says. It's listed on his site.


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## technobabble66 (29/8/17)

What about chateau aromatic?

PS: I'm absolutely shattered Dingemanns don't ship to Australia any more. Very ******* annoying.
Was there any reason given?
And has anyone found anything else to be (very) similar to their aromatic and biscuit?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (29/8/17)

Maybe CUB used it for VB once and pissed Dingemans right off?


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## Mardoo (30/8/17)

The local distributor has stopped bringing Dingeman's in due to lack of sales. Not coming from Dingeman's side.


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## Nullnvoid (1/9/17)

So what are our thoughts? See how Mardoo's brew goes this weekend? And go from there.


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## technobabble66 (1/9/17)

Yep. Pretty much. 
As per my thoughts above, I'd see how his batch goes, and tweak from there. I reckon it'll be a choice between biscuit & aromatic, otherwise keeping the rest of it as above (post #104).


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## Nullnvoid (1/9/17)

Sweet as . Sounds good to me. I'm liking it all!


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## technobabble66 (1/9/17)

Lol. I'm much the same. 
(Don't forget you're the one in charge, so if you want anything changed just say the word [emoji6])


(... Like, say, adding some oats...)


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## Mardoo (1/9/17)

I won't get to the batch this weekend. I got whacked with the flu stick on Monday and it's just been getting worse. My poor new heart is in shock  I will definitely get to it next weekend though, unless someone wants to drop round and get the grain and hops and brew it themselves.


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## malt junkie (1/9/17)

With ya there Mardoo this flu SUX. My aches and pains from old age and youthful stupidity, now have their own aches and pains from this crap flu. I need sleep.


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## technobabble66 (1/9/17)

Just wait for its 2nd visit ... [emoji40]


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## technobabble66 (1/9/17)

And chop chop, lazy boy! 
I thought now that you've got the new heart you'd have no excuses!

Only kidding [emoji1] 
Next week will definitely be fine [emoji4]
Hope you're (both) feeling better ASAP. 




... Hey, maybe we could use both biscuit AND aromatic. Why choose between 2 awesome malts! [emoji57]


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## Mardoo (1/9/17)

And Carahell, and Toffee!!!


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## Nullnvoid (2/9/17)

I thought we were keeping the grain bill simple 

That sucks Mardoo and malt junkie. I also have it and it fucks around with my asthma every time. Still can't breathe. 

And yeah wait for the second time to come around.


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## Mardoo (2/9/17)

You suck Russell. Keep your freakin' second time to yourself.


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## technobabble66 (2/9/17)

Just out of interest, is there anyone who wants an Amber Ale instead of an Amber IPA?

The thought occurred to me that we could be over engineering this to cater for 2 options when maybe everyone is happy with the single option. 

In terms of output volume (the original/primary reason we went down the dual path) we could still boost the OG with some dex and DME in the boil, so the mash size isn't a limiting factor. 
So we still make the beer like an Amber Ale, then add in 5% dex & 5% DME. This takes a, say, 5.5% Amber to a 6.3% Amber (eg: 5kg grain per 22L cube, at 75% extraction eff). 
I'm just thinking that if everyone wants the IPA version it might be easier to chuck the powders into the kettle rather than everybody have to do it individually later on. Also makes the hops a little more straightforward. 

If there's still some who prefer an Amber rather than the IPA then that's fine and we continue on with that strategy. Just thought I'd check were not over complicating things.


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## Nullnvoid (2/9/17)

I would prefer the ipa as I'm enjoying ipas at the moment. But happy to go with the majority.


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## technobabble66 (2/9/17)

The 2 versions of the beer from Mardoo's recipe. 
The first is done to 5.5%:





And for those who like the graph:





The second is the same grist, but with 5% (0.275kg) each of dex & DME added, plus moar hops:








Which takes it to 6.3%. 

How's that look?


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## technobabble66 (2/9/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> I would prefer the ipa as I'm enjoying ipas at the moment. But happy to go with the majority.



I'm similar. I'll probably brew whichever one we don't do at the swap (as well as the one we do). So I'm happy either way. 

I'd have to check the thread, but I don't recall anyone NOT wanting an IPA or being adamant about having an Amber Ale instead of the IPA. (Hence my query about over engineering [emoji57]).


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## Dr_Rocks (2/9/17)

technobabble66 said:


> Just out of interest, is there anyone who wants an Amber Ale instead of an Amber IPA?
> 
> The thought occurred to me that we could be over engineering this to cater for 2 options when maybe everyone is happy with the single option.
> 
> ...



I am happy to do whatever. 

Will someone post the agreed on "expected recipe" prior to the event? Keen to add it to my list in beersmith. If I were to take notes on the day I'm sure they would be illegible as the night wore on.


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## Mardoo (8/9/17)

OK guys, looks like I'll be able to brew my proposed recipe this weekend. I managed to cobble together a 3V out of all the bits I've accumulated. I've been gypsy (and ill) so long I've never managed to get my real system built. But now, it's in sight!

I'm brewing it at the 1.073-ish gravity, and brewing 33L so I can run one ferment at full gravity, and dilute one back to 1.050-ish. Best thing? My 6-year old daughter is totally stoked about brewing with me! I'll report in post-brew.


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## technobabble66 (8/9/17)

Great to hear you're getting a little brewing window organized!

Fwiw I'd advocate brewing a 1.053-5 version, and boost one batch up to ~1.065-70 with some dex & DME. Utilizing that option for the big brew at the swap should result in more cubes for all who want them, which was the purpose for proposing it. 
However I appreciate that if you were to brew a small batch for yourself, I'd generally go strong and then dilute. 
Just my opinion, and whichever way you decide will be great [emoji6].


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## Mardoo (8/9/17)

Mate, if I took people's advice I'd be healthy, wealthy and wise...maybe it's time to start, eh? 

We'll see what happens. However, if I was making one strictly for myself, I'd be likely to thin it out with sugar, and at starting 1.070-ish, that gets into the dropping-the-third-pint-because-I-forgot-to-hold-on range, so lower makes some solid sense.


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## Mardoo (9/9/17)

Well, TB and MJ, I totally agree about the aromatic. Since I'm targeting this towards fruity hops it's absolutely the go. If I were going for stanky dank hops I might choose the biscuit, but here, aromatic wins the day.

I ended up going with higher gravity to dilute back. Mofox1 gets it 

This might be my only Katie Perry powered brew day


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## JB (9/9/17)

Very good to see you back in the game & kicking off with a family brew day - nothing better!


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## Mardoo (24/9/17)

Well, it's likely too late to organise getting the grain for through the Bulk Buy. I like the recipe I came up with, but it can be better. The next step I would try is:

Simpson's Golden Promise 81% (175 kg)
Gladfield Supernova 12% (25 kg)
Simpson's Heritage Crystal 7% (15kg)

I suspect the Aromatic is burying the Supernova, and the Supernova needs a bump. I'll be trying this one next.

Edit: Oh, and that's 660L/30 cubes at 1.070. The dilution worked pretty well.


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## laxation (27/9/17)

Any need for any of these hops in the brew? I made out like a bandit at an auction yesterday... and now have more hops than I know what to do with.
Maybe the NB for bittering? It's free btw.

Saaz - 300g
Hallertau - 700g
Goldings - 100g
Perle US - 450g
Tettnanger - 600g
Northern Brewer - 500g
Cluster - 100g


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## JB (27/9/17)

Which auction was that Lax?


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## laxation (27/9/17)

http://www.lockwoodcompany.com.au/S2965.htm

I got the "contents of fridge"


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## JB (27/9/17)

Wow, nice score!


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## laxation (27/9/17)

There was another lot of hops that went for $160 - with probably $2k worth in that lot. 13 boxes with an open 5kg bag in each one, various levels of 'fullness' to each bag, but most were at least half full. A few unopened 1kg bags in there as well...


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## Curly79 (27/9/17)

Shit! A mate sent me a link for that auction. Great score on the hops!


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## Nullnvoid (15/10/17)

So probably time we revisit this as swap day is getting closer.

How are we going with recipes?


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## Mardoo (15/10/17)

Haven’t had a chance to run the second version of my suggestion yet. I’m unsure whether I will get to, as I’ve just realised I need to brew my swap beer yet, and the collab day is coming up. We could run the second swap suggestion side-by-side on Idzy’s small system in the Collab day, if that system is good to go. 

We could also go with Jamie’s West Coast Amber, as it’s a known quantity. Good example of a hoppy Amber.


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## Nullnvoid (22/10/17)

So MJ raised a good point in the other thread. We are running out of time. 

I think perhaps this West coast amber might be the go for a lack of anything else.


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## malt junkie (22/10/17)

I do like where @Mardoo was going! Up to him if he wants to take the reins on this one.


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## MartinOC (22/10/17)

Maybe something to put-down for next winter?

Batch was about 40L.:

7.50 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) 65.5 %
1.00 kg Amber Malt (Joe White) (45.3 EBC) 8.7 %
0.55 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBC) 4.8 %
0.50 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) 4.4 %
0.50 kg Wheat Malt (Joe White) (3.5 EBC) 4.4 %
0.40 kg Roasted Malt (Joe White) (1199.7 EBC) 3.5 %

60.00 g Willamette [6.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min 25.2 IBUs (I didn't have any Fuggles, so went with it's poor American cousin).
50.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [4.50 %] - Boil 90.0 min 17.3 IBUs
1.00 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) [Boil for 45 min](0.0 EBC) 8.7 %
50.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [4.50 %] - Boil 25.0 min 11.5 IBUs

Dry hopped with about 50g of EKG for a few days.

It'll probably run at about 6.5% ABV. Perfect for quiet fireside contemplation in the depths of winter.

Yes, you purists will notice that I used Dextrose & all crappy JW specialty malts. All of them were horribly out of date & probably should've been chucked or fed to the chooks. The hops were similarly tired.

This was intended for a family member (a bit of a juice-junky), but ended-up being my swap-beer for winter 2014. Folks were so impressed with it, I put it into a competition....

Got 1st place in the Porter category at Vicbrew 2014 & a 4th at the Nationals in the same year... so NER NER to the purists!


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## Nullnvoid (22/10/17)

I thought you were the purist Martin?


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## MartinOC (22/10/17)

Nah, I just know how to make good beer from crap ingredients. Proof that you CAN make a silk purse from a pig's ear..


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## technobabble66 (22/10/17)

I'd be happy to go with the Amber. Keep it fairly simple in the mash & boil, and we can cube hop to our heart's content.

I'd also be happy with the Porter if that was the consensus (though we did just do a stout)... but, why the feck would we use JW when we've got Simpsons??? 
Oh, and i see you accidentally wrote Wheat Malt instead of Oat Malt. Silly Martin!.


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## Mardoo (23/10/17)

MartinOC said:


> Nah, I just know how to make good beer from crap ingredients. Proof that you CAN make a silk purse from a pig's ear..



Actually the best kolsch I ever made was when the brew shop substituted JW pilsner for the Weyermann I ordered (without asking!). People LOVED it.


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## Mardoo (23/10/17)

Recipe-wise I’d rather do a tried and tested one. That said, the Amber I did has at least had one version tried. I just won’t have time to give it another go, unless I skip the collab brew this weekend. I could crack out V2 if folks wanted me to have another go. Then we’d have a good idea by about Nov 5. 

But then again, MartinOC’s Porter was freakin’ lovely, and I’d happily drink that any day of the week. 

Zero attachment to my recipe being brewed, but if it is, I’d rather know it was where I wanted it. Where things stand, I’d vote for Martin’s unless I run V2 this weekend.


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## Nullnvoid (23/10/17)

I'd prefer you to come to the collab brew  But I'm a bit selfish  Do you have a recipe for the tried and tested hoppy amber?

Ok, lets have a vote. Whatever has the most votes on Friday will be brewed. If you don't vote then you cannot complain 

Martin's Porter

Or

Hoppy Amber

I will tally the votes and then organise the grain/hops

Copy and paste
--------------------------------

AHB Decides

Nullnvoid - Hoppy Amber


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## DJ_L3ThAL (23/10/17)

Ok, lets have a vote. Whatever has the most votes on Friday will be brewed. If you don't vote then you cannot complain 

Martin's Porter

Or

Hoppy Amber

I will tally the votes and then organise the grain/hops

Copy and paste
--------------------------------

AHB Decides

Nullnvoid - Hoppy Amber
DJ_L3ThAL - Martins Porter


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## laxation (23/10/17)

AHB Decides

Nullnvoid - Hoppy Amber
DJ_L3ThAL - Martins Porter
Laxation - hoppy amber


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## Dr_Rocks (23/10/17)

AHB Decides

Nullnvoid - Hoppy Amber
DJ_L3ThAL - Martins Porter
Laxation - hoppy amber
Dr Rocks - hoppy amber


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## MartinOC (23/10/17)

Just thinking outside the square Mardoo:

Why not have the best of both worlds this weekend & do the V2 Amber concurrent with the collab. brew? Folks will have trailers etc. available for transporting gear the short distance to Adam's place.

Win-Win?


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## Nullnvoid (23/10/17)

I have a trailer and all of Friday off if you wanted to play it that way Mardoo.


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## Mardoo (23/10/17)

I had suggested the possibility on Idzy's small rig, but hadn't heard anything from him. I'm not sure he's checked the thread of late. We could bring mine around I suppose, but was planning on using its HEX and pump for one of the mash tuns.


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## technobabble66 (2/11/17)

Hey @Mardoo , have you fermented & kegged that V2 yet?!? Keen to see how it goes


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## Mardoo (2/11/17)

Actually I just had a fermenter sample. I got it into the fermenter Monday, it has about 14 points to go, so I’ll dry hop it today. I’m 99% sure what the next step will be, but I’d like to taste some grain combinations over the weekend to check my thinking. I’ll post my final proposed recipe at that point.

I hopped this a lot more classically than I usually do and it sure is nice tasting some old hop friends I haven’t used much in the last couple years. Cascade, Columbus, Chinook, Simcoe, and the odd one out, Ahtanum.


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## technobabble66 (2/11/17)

Mardoo said:


> .... The next step I would try is:
> 
> Simpson's Golden Promise 81% (175 kg)
> Gladfield Supernova 12% (25 kg)
> ...


Hey mardoo, is this the grist of the V2?


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## Mardoo (2/11/17)

Yes.


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## Mardoo (8/11/17)

Okie dokie, I'm happy enough with this to put it up as a proposal for the recipe - 78% Simpsons Golden Promise, 12% Gladfield Supernova, 3.5% Light Crystal, 3.5% Dark Crystal, 3% Biscuit to 1.060, 30 IBU's up front in the boil, rest in cube according to cuber's delight.

Oh, and Martin said we could order through Clever.


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## Nullnvoid (8/11/17)

Sounds delicious to me!


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## Dr_Rocks (8/11/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> Sounds delicious to me!


I concur


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## Nullnvoid (8/11/17)

Mardoo said:


> Oh, and Martin said we could order through Clever.



I think it worked well at the collaboration brew to mill the grain at a particular Clever place. Maybe if we ask nicely enough we might be able to do a similiar thing. Im hopefully going to organise the Friday off so might be able to do it again.


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## JB (8/11/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> I think it worked well at the collaboration brew to mill the grain at a particular Clever place. Maybe if we ask nicely enough we might be able to do a similiar thing. Im hopefully going to organise the Friday off so might be able to do it again.


I'll see if i can arrange for the day to give you a hand


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## Nullnvoid (8/11/17)

JB said:


> I'll see if i can arrange for the day to give you a hand



Sounds good!


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## technobabble66 (8/11/17)

Mardoo said:


> Okie dokie, I'm happy enough with this to put it up as a proposal for the recipe - 78% Simpsons Golden Promise, 12% Gladfield Supernova, 3.5% Light Crystal, 3.5% Dark Crystal, 3% Biscuit to 1.060, 30 IBU's up front in the boil, rest in cube according to cuber's delight.
> 
> Oh, and Martin said we could order through Clever.


Excellent! 
Thanks a truckload for doing the test batches. 
Any reason you're proposing to use Light & Dark crystal rather than the Heritage crystal?


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## Mardoo (9/11/17)

I think it needs some dark caramel flavours as well.


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## Nullnvoid (10/11/17)

So this is two weeks out! We had better get a wriggle on.

Is it up to me to organise the grain for this or Mardoo are you onto this already? And hops too, what hops? Will we get these through Clever.

Let's get this going!


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## technobabble66 (10/11/17)

We need to decide if we're doing all the same cube hopping or if everyone sorts themselves out for a bit of variance. 
(I vote for the latter on this one). 
If it's the former we need to decide all the different hops (obviously [emoji1]), if it's the latter I'd just chuck some magnum, chinook or simcoe at it. 

What did @Mardoo do for V1 & V2? What's his thoughts on this?


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## Nullnvoid (11/11/17)

Well I guess we need collective opinions and quickly .


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## Mardoo (11/11/17)

Just magnum for the brew, people provide their own cube hops. I recommend citrus, stone fruit and dank for this recipe. The dank really makes the Amber flavours sing. Solely fruit flavours leave it a bit flabby.

Sorry to have gone quiet, sorting out some shit at home. I’m not in a position to organise a **** in a brothel with a fistful of 50’s at the moment. My apologies.


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## Nullnvoid (11/11/17)

I can organise it with clever. 

Can you send me the recipe so I can upscale please? 

Hope all is alright at home Mardoo.


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## technobabble66 (11/11/17)

Mardoo said:


> ...I recommend citrus, stone fruit and dank for this recipe. The dank really makes the Amber flavours sing. Solely fruit flavours leave it a bit flabby.
> ....


Out of interest, what's your poison of choice for Dank? And stone fruit?


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## Mardoo (11/11/17)

So far, all the ambers I’ve done have fared best with the traditional C hops - Cascade, Columbus, Chinook - and Simcoe. Centennial, Ahtanum, Mosaic, Amarillo, and variants on those flavours are all good. Basically, give the fruity hops a foil with something dank and it’ll be great. I did one with all stonefruit hops and it was interesting, but I never wanted more than a schooner.

And thanks Russ, all will be well, I just need to get some things in order quickly.


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## technobabble66 (11/11/17)

Lol - my general preferred choice is Chinook + Columbus + Simcoe. Possibly plus either Cascade or Citra. Great minds think alike!

I was just asking as i have extra options like Centennial, Mosaic, Horizon, Moteuka, Nelson & Falconers Flight (a blend, i know) - so just wondering what key flavours/aromas you get from those? 
Or more to the point, what is best in your opinion for either Dank or Stonefruit. I've had experience with all of them, so have some idea what i think i was getting from each, but it's always great to hear other people's impressions on hops, i find. 

I'd normally go the Columbus for the Dank element, but having trialled Centennial a few times, i'm still not sure if it's a reasonable option for Dank .

Either way, i think i'll end up going the Chinook/Columbus/Simcoe + Cascade combo for the cube & dry hopping. Pretty much a foolproof combo!


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## Mardoo (11/11/17)

I, too, would love to hear other people's input on this.

Centennial has a touch of dank, but not enough for my tastes. I myself tend to use it for its fruit aspects. Columbus and Simcoe are my go-to's for dank. Apollo and Comet are fantastic for some solid dank. Northern Brewer (German) has a bit of it. Huell Melon does as well, but mostly enough to balance its sweeter aromas out. I find Southern Cross a bit dank.

Amarillo of course for stone fruit. I myself find Mosaic to be stone fruit in small quantities, petrol-ish if late-hopped in large quantities. Caliente has a nice bit of cherry to my palate. If you can still find Summer (it's gone out of production, which shits me) it's solidly apricot, but solely for in-cube and dry hop. I love it and Huell Melon for kolsch-ish beers. Rakau (NZ) is said to be stone fruit, but I haven't used it.

Horses for courses. Aromatic and flavour organoleptic assessment will never be an exact science, because every one of the sensing mechanisms is built in a different factory, AKA Mom.


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## AJ80 (11/11/17)

Best American Amber I've ever made had a large cube hop addition of fresh home grown Victoria flowers...surprisingly dank with 'dark'(?) citrus overtones. Was very nice.


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## Nullnvoid (11/11/17)

AJ80 said:


> Best American Amber I've ever made had a large cube hop addition of fresh home grown Victoria flowers...surprisingly dank with 'dark'(?) citrus overtones. Was very nice.




Well I guess you better bring enough for everyone then  hahahah


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## Mardoo (11/11/17)

Yep, absolutely, Victoria is an awesome dank/fruit hop. Hence why it survived my cut from 10 to 2 hop plants. 

However, getting 100g+ of flowers into cubes is time consuming and sticky.

PS: I somehow got two more hop plants after the cut, and have one final one on the books for next year. Really. Last one.


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## AJ80 (11/11/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> Well I guess you better bring enough for everyone then  hahahah



Haha! I've got a grand total of 25g left in the freezer! I'm tempted to use them with the 80 or so grams of cascade flowers from last season I've got left too. Should be nice.


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## Mardoo (11/11/17)

OK @Russ and everyone, recipe for swap system, including Beersmith files for swap brew and Swap System. I adjusted the Swap System profile based on Husky's notes in the winter swap thread and my observations from the Collab Brew a couple weeks ago.

150 kilos Simpson's Golden Promise
25 kilos Gladfield Supernova
8 kilos light crystal (Baird's or Simpson's)
8 kilos dark crystal (Baird's or Simpson's)
6 kilos Biscuit (Dingeman's)
500g German Magnum pellets @ 13.2% (current Clever stock alpha %)


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## Nullnvoid (11/11/17)

Onto it! Thanks Mardoo!


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## Mardoo (11/11/17)

So that's a 700 litre batch, so we may need to adjust cubists, or scale the recipe to the actual number of cubes people want. I'll put a note in the swap thread.


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## Mardoo (12/11/17)

Oh, AND, dropping the gravity to 1.060-ish means we only have to run Idzy’s two large mashtuns and don’t need the third.


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## Mardoo (12/11/17)

We’re not done yet! I realised that the recipe I posted still has the mash steps as I would do them on my home system. 

Do we want to avoid mash stepping as we did on the Collab Brew? It definitely knocked a few hours off the day, IMHAO. Probably a good idea. Me, I’m a confirmed stepper, but when it comes to adding hours into a long brew day, one may find me flexible in that regard.


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## Nullnvoid (12/11/17)

If it can work and be tasty without the step I reckon that's the way forward.

It appeared to work out alright on the collaboration brew


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## Mardoo (13/11/17)

Yeah, it will. I mean, hell, with the temp problems we had when I did the test recipe on the collab day, and it made pretty decent beer, it will most certainly make beer. Most craft brewers use single infusion with a hot sparge.


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## technobabble66 (15/11/17)

Would there be any interest (@Nullnvoid & @Mardoo ) in subbing a few kilos of Biscuit with Victory?
I think i've got several kilos of Victory from a BB a couple of years ago (still fine, but i can double check if required), and i'm unlikely to plough through it soon. So i can easily cover 2-3kgs, possibly all 6kg of biscuit of the recipe. 
Interested, or prefer to stick to the biscuit?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (15/11/17)

Ella is another option for subtle stone fruit, not sure how it plays with the ‘Cs’ and had planned on an all Ella APA soon to see what it has, might change my mind and combine it with others for this brew hmmmmn


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## AJ80 (18/11/17)

So was there a final consensus on cube hop additions? Am thinking 25g of Victoria flowers and 50g of cascade flowers and probably ferment with US05.


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## Mardoo (18/11/17)

Have a look at the PM. Just posted some info and suggestions there.


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## husky (26/11/17)

Any thoughts at throwing WLP022 Essex Ale Yeast at this cube? I went for 160g homegrown cascade and 120g homegrown Chinook in my cube and keen to try this yeast out.


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## Mardoo (26/11/17)

I reckon it will work fine, although that’s an arseload of hops for 1.052! Chinook originally has English roots.


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## husky (26/11/17)

yeah, even at the planned 1.060 it was always going to be a big hop! Plan to let it mellow in the keg for 6 months and bring to the winter swap if it's not crazy bitter.


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## technobabble66 (26/11/17)

It's roughly 5 times more hops than i planned to use for my cube. And that was going to get it to ~80 IBUs. Your's will be off the charts, husky!
Admittedly when filling my cube i ended up thinking **** it i can't be bothered trying to split of the excess hops in my vac bag and trying to seal it. So the whole lot went in, ~100g total instead of the 80g i intended. Unfortunately was a bit short for the spare/excess big & little cubes i luckily got filled at the end (thanks, guys!) so in hindsight could've used that extra 20g about 5 mins later. 

What was the OG at whirlpool/flameout? 1.052? 
And final vol? 600L?


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## husky (26/11/17)

From memory it calced up at 80 or 90 IBU using Beersmith WP addition @ 50% utilisation for 20 minutes. It is a hoppy amber afterall!
Will need to re check OG when pitching as there was some variability in the numbers Russ was getting. My notes have pre boil 1.054 and post boil 1.052 which is obviously wrong. The sample tasted maltier that 1.052


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## technobabble66 (28/11/17)

Good news: drained my cube and measured OG. 
Less good news: OG=1.046-8 [emoji15]
Good news : I kinda needed a regular Amber for the summer anyway, so this is great for me!
Slightly less good news: it's pretty ******* bitter with 80g of chinook&columbus flowers in da cube. 
Hopeful good news: it's on a 059 yeast cake, which I'd suspect/hope will drop a little bitterness as the yeast flocs out

Anyway, the hydro sample tastes pretty ******* good


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## laxation (28/11/17)

All good - hoppy session amber sounds fkn delish!


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## Nullnvoid (28/11/17)

Ohh crap, sorry guys


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## husky (28/11/17)

Ok mine might now be a Session Amber IIIPA with it's 300g flower addition and 1.046
Ah well, still beer, some of the best brews are unintentional!


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## DJ_L3ThAL (28/11/17)

So mine must be an Amber RIS? 200g of pellet hops. Wowee, who’s coming over for a tasting once it is on tap?

By my calcs dropping the gravity only increases the IBUs from 70 to 77.8... should be fine. Looking forward to brewing this, hopefully get to ferment it soon.


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## malt junkie (28/11/17)

I behaved with the hops, 34g simcoe, will prolly dry hop citra 2g/l should be good drinkin!


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## laxation (28/11/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> Ohh crap, sorry guys


rdwhahb! i'm still super excited for it


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## technobabble66 (28/11/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> So mine must be an Amber RIS? 200g of pellet hops. Wowee, who’s coming over for a tasting once it is on tap?
> 
> By my calcs dropping the gravity only increases the IBUs from 70 to 77.8... should be fine. Looking forward to brewing this, hopefully get to ferment it soon.



Lol. I went from 82 to 100.9 IBUs. 
Interesting the difference in calculators, especially considering I used ~40% of the amount of hops, & they were flowers. 
What were the pellets? 
I just did a quick calc assuming they're 13%AA chinook: 215 IBUs [emoji15][emoji51] [emoji23]
... An Amber Session IIIPA
Or does that make it an Amber XXXPA?

@Rusty, no stress, it's all good! We/you made beer, and I'm pretty sure it'll still be very tasty as well.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (28/11/17)

technobabble66 said:


> Lol. I went from 82 to 100.9 IBUs.
> Interesting the difference in calculators, especially considering I used ~40% of the amount of hops, & they were flowers.
> What were the pellets?
> I just did a quick calc assuming they're 13%AA chinook: 215 IBUs [emoji15][emoji51] [emoji23]
> ...



Chinook 12.7%, Citra 13.9%, Columbus 13.9% and Simcoe 13.2%.

In Beersmith I dropped the efficiency until I got the actual OG (58% BH efficiency actually) which states 77.9IBUs. I only calculated as a 10minute steep. Not realising that the BFK provides far hotter wort than I get at home, so that's probably why I'm underestimating the IBU. Still keen AF to taste what it turns out like, it will be RAD. XXXXXXAA is my new style


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## Nullnvoid (28/11/17)

I blame the thunderstorm


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## droid (29/11/17)

I'm probably going to brew a Session IPA this weekend and as it's 90% Flame Out Hops I reckon a transfer of x ltrs prior to hopping could be used to get the case swap brew into the 45 IBU range. No stress.


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## Mardoo (29/11/17)

Nullnvoid said:


> Ohh crap, sorry guys



Mate, you did great. There were plenty of us there who could have been helping you out. I didn’t realise until an hour in that the second mash tun was running at 70C. Also, IF the base was in fact TFFMGP we should have mashed a bit differently. I’ve gotten low OG’s before on their malts from short single infusions. However we weren’t really sure. 

Whatever the case, there will be beer. And it will be bitter, so let’s not be


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## technobabble66 (29/11/17)

And another positive: I'm fairly over high grav beers for a while. Especially after my Surprise! Belgian series made its appearance- instead of have 5-6.5% beers, I now have 4 slabs of 6.5% & 4 slabs of 9.5% to get through. Let's just say my Belgian IPA is a bit of a showstopper. 
For me personally, I'm much happier it's more like a 5-6% than an 8% Amber. 
Winning!!


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## Nullnvoid (29/11/17)

Thanks all for your positive comments, I will stop worrying!

Can't wait to get this fermented! Just semi easily solved fermentation fridge issues to resolve. Better hurry otherwise I won't have anything for Christmas


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## Mardoo (29/11/17)

And I’ve got to do something with all that Amber candi syrup from last year.


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## technobabble66 (29/11/17)

However I definitely blame Rusty for this:





******* yeast.
*shakes fist at sky*


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## JB (29/11/17)

Mardoo said:


> And I’ve got to do something with all that Amber candi syrup from last year.


Shit yeah, just remembered I have some of this tucked away also


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## JB (29/11/17)

technobabble66 said:


> However I definitely blame Rusty for this:
> View attachment 110033
> 
> ******* yeast.
> *shakes fist at sky*



IT"S A BOY!!!


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## Nullnvoid (29/11/17)

technobabble66 said:


> However I definitely blame Rusty for this:
> View attachment 110033
> 
> ******* yeast.
> *shakes fist at sky*



I will take that on board.

Looks like me in the mornings....hey wait a second!


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## husky (2/12/17)

Just threw some WLP022 at this. OG was 1.044/5 and when I emptied the cube it was half full of hop flowers. Lost a lot of wort to the flowers but salvaged some for starters. I'm calling it "Amber The Bitter B!tch" definitely bitter but I think it will turn out great with 300g of flowers in the cube.


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## Mardoo (2/12/17)

Here’s an interesting article that sheds some light on the different bittering effect of late-hopping, as well as bitterness from dry-hopping.

https://beerandbrewing.com/understanding-bitterness/


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## technobabble66 (2/12/17)

At what point does it become cube worted hops, instead of cube hopped wort?? [emoji15]


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## AJ80 (2/12/17)

I pitched mine today as well. Same OG as husky. Pitched with some M-44 slurry. Smelled and tasted great! Depending on how the cube hops carry through I may give it a small dry hop.


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## husky (5/12/17)

Pressure ferment 1 BAR @ 21 deg = ready! Really impressed with this and is super tasty. It does have a slight bitterness that dissipates and I reckon will mellow with time but I wouldn't change a thing. Tasty as!


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## Nullnvoid (5/12/17)

Great to hear Husky! 

Just making a starter for mine and will be starting fermenting tomorrow! Can't wait to try it.


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## Mardoo (5/12/17)

****. Yes.


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## Nullnvoid (6/12/17)

Just put this down but forgot to take a reading. 

I'm going to assume it's around the 1.045-1.046 mark. 

Now hurry up and ferment so I can drink!!


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## droid (7/12/17)

Sounds good' I'll leave as is and pressure ferment with us05 on the weekend, cheers


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## mofox1 (9/12/17)

Pitched yesterday arvo. Burton ale, nice active starter... Bubbling away happily this morning.

My cube got about 150g hops, so I'm adding a can of Cooper's wheat malt and a few litres of water to bump it up to 25L @ 1.060. First time I've used liquid extract for a while


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## technobabble66 (10/12/17)

Before you get too excited, this is the test batch of Rusty's Rye APA. 
******* tasty. 
Done with 059, plus 40g of Columbus & 25g each of cascade and simcoe. 
Nice simple malt backbone to support the mildly face slapping hops. 

One secret: CC as soon as dry hopped and bottle/keg within 2-3 days - maintains the dank resiny element. And use Columbus. 

Boo. *******. Yah.



Edit: ie: I find a really big difference in the nature of the hops impact between days 2 & 3, and also day 3 & 4. By day 4, a lot of the resinous element seems to have dissipated.


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## Nullnvoid (10/12/17)

Just tasted the Amber whilst taking a hydro reading. It's a bit bitter but still drinkable. Looking forward to this.

As a side note, down to 1.011 in 4 days! Brilliant


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## husky (10/12/17)

Been finished in the fermenter for a week or so now. Sampled and the bitterness has mellowed already. Decided to dry hop with 7g/L cascade for that extra yum, might do a second after 3 days will see. Going to try CC at start of dry hop too so also set to 1 degC today.


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## technobabble66 (10/12/17)

Transferred mine to a 2ndary FV today, on top of 50g each of Columbus & Simcoe & 40g of Chinook. 
I think mine got down to 1.008-9 on a 059 yeast cake. 
Gave it a quick stir an hour later then into the CC fridge for 2 days at 3.5*C. 
Nom. Nom. Nom.


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## Nullnvoid (20/12/17)

Been in the keg a week. It's pretty bitter but not offensive and still drinkable. 

I'm sure will mellow with more time I was just impatient to try!


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## laxation (20/12/17)

I kegged mine Monday and had a delicious glass last night. Looking forward to another (4 or 5) when I get home...

For anyone interested, it got down to 1.008 on half a us-05 cake


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## Nullnvoid (20/12/17)

And it's really clear. Compared to the Rusty Pail ale[emoji768]️ which is cloudy as all get out and was fermented and kegged at the same time.


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## Nullnvoid (20/12/17)

laxation said:


> I kegged mine Monday and had a delicious glass last night. Looking forward to another (4 or 5) when I get home...
> 
> For anyone interested, it got down to 1.008 on half a us-05 cake



Mine got down quite low too. On what I thought was a dodgy yeast starter.


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## malt junkie (20/12/17)

Mine will be going in the kegmenter Friday, didn't time it well at all, it'll be on tap NYE and that could be dangerous.


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## husky (21/12/17)

Yum, hopefully lasts until the next meet up. Lovely malt and the whole hop cones add a distinctive flavour. Not the beer we intended but more suited for summer nights drinking the way it is.


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## technobabble66 (26/12/17)

Aaaaww yeah!!
Simcoe + Columbus FTW!!


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