# Pilsner And Ale Base Malt



## Swinging Beef (23/3/09)

Pilsner and Ale base malt get used for regionally specific beer styles, but what is the REAL difference between them?
Are they interchangeable with the addition of other specialty grains?
Are they the same species of grain but malted differently?
What happens if you make a Tripel with Ale malt or an English Mild with Pilsner?
Does one provide greater yeild of sugar than the other?


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## t2000kw (23/3/09)

Swinging Beef said:


> Pilsner and Ale base malt get used for regionally specific beer styles, but what is the REAL difference between them?
> Are they interchangeable with the addition of other specialty grains?
> Are they the same species of grain but malted differently?
> What happens if you make a Tripel with Ale malt or an English Mild with Pilsner?
> Does one provide greater yeild of sugar than the other?



A similar question was asked today in another forum. The opinion in the Zymurgy Yahoo group was that there is a small difference, but you may not notice the difference. 

I've brewed a nice lager before with American 2-row malt instead of the Pilsner malt called for in the recipe and it was very tasty.

Not having done a side by side comparison, I can't tell you what the difference might have been. 

Donald


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## Bribie G (23/3/09)

I've been making UK Bitters with Maris Otter and only recently experimented with the other malts. I haven't tried the Pilsener but made an American Amber with the BB Ale malt and it turned out great ... I had been anticipating less of a 'malty' finish but it was just fine. 

Although I haven't tried the BB Pilsener yet, a fantastic base malt is Galaxy. I recently used 4kg plus a kilo of rice in an American / Cerveza style and was expecting a very light blonde as I didn't use any other grains. To my amazement it turned out a lovely light golden yellow and will be spot on for a Corona type beer. It's currently in Primary and can't wait for the first bottle.


I'll be using Pilsener when I go lager in the cooler months but can't comment on it as yet.


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## RetsamHsam (23/3/09)

Swinging Beef said:


> Pilsner and Ale base malt get used for regionally specific beer styles, but what is the REAL difference between them?



I think the major difference is the colour.. Pils Malt is slightly lighter than ale malt. 

If you were to use Ale malt in it's place in a pilsener or other light coloured lager you would end up with a beer which is not as light as one made with pils malt.


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## T.D. (23/3/09)

t2000kw said:


> The opinion in the Zymurgy Yahoo group was that there is a small difference, but you may not notice the difference.



I don't know about not noticing a difference. There is a definite difference in body from brewing with ale or pislner malt. The beers with pilsner malt are noticably crisper and lighter in body. Having said that, there is no reason you can't use them interchangably for most styles, just expect there to be subtle differences in the body of the resulting beer (holding all other ingredients constant). 

In fact just recently I made a bitter with BB Pale malt. I am yet to try the beer, but the wort looks and smells fantastic. I have made plenty of APAs with pils malt with good results, and the best pilsner I have made was done with JW ale malt. So in my view there is no rhyme or reason to what you can and can't use but you will get noticable differences.

If you are making a mild or a bitter with pilsner malt though, and you want that ale malt character, just bolster it with some munich or a little light crystal. For the bitter I did with BB Pale I added some flaked barley to the grist.


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## Fourstar (23/3/09)

T.D. said:


> I don't know about not noticing a difference. There is a definite difference in body from brewing with ale or pislner malt. The beers with pilsner malt are noticably crisper and lighter in body.



Wouldnt that usually come down to the mash temperature, hop selection, water profile and the type of yeast used to ferment? I say this because a Boho Pils has a noticeably full and rich pilsner aroma/flavour/mouthfeel compared to a german pils which is usually lighter and crisp.

When i attempted to make a German Pilsner with a low mash temp and unmodified melbourne water, it still had a slight Boho Pilsner richness/fullness to it. From what ive discovered, Melbournes water profile is as soft as Pilsen and doesnt have enough minerals. Sulphates in particular to accentuate hop bitterness. Hence giving a percieved cripness/dryness.

Just my 2 cents.

ON a side note, ive used Pils and Ale interchangably and in various ratios 30:70 etc and malt aromas appear to be the only change i notice. An increase in pilsner malt... increases the malt nose. If i use a big portion of ale malt. i usually only get specialy malt characters coming through. I would be interested to try making a pilsner with just ale malt to see the results.... It may require a decoction to get the melanoidens happening.

Cheers!


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## bakkerman (23/3/09)

I asked the malster at ADM Maltings in Geelong during a tour what the difference was between pils and pale ale malt.

According to him the difference was colour, ale malt is slightly darker, and modification. Pale malt is better modified. 

The differences are that subtle that they nearly can be interchanged, JS Pilsener is made with pale malt.


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## Adamt (23/3/09)

If there's anything else in the mash tun, Munich, crystal, choc, roast, etc. you wouldn't be able to tell the difference flavour-wise. Same would go for a big flavour hop addition.


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## T.D. (23/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> Wouldnt that usually come down to the mash temperature, hop selection, water profile and the type of yeast used to ferment? I say this because a Boho Pils has a noticeably full and rich pilsner aroma/flavour/mouthfeel compared to a german pils which is usually lighter and crisp.
> 
> When i attempted to make a German Pilsner with a low mash temp and unmodified melbourne water, it still had a slight Boho Pilsner richness/fullness to it. From what ive discovered, Melbournes water profile is as soft as Pilsen and doesnt have enough minerals. Sulphates in particular to accentuate hop bitterness. Hence giving a percieved cripness/dryness.
> 
> ...



You failed to quote my disclaimer later in the post... "holding all other ingredients constant"  . Of course, this also applies to mash temps etc.


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## Fourstar (23/3/09)

T.D. said:


> You failed to quote my disclaimer later in the post... "holding all other ingredients constant"  . Of course, this also applies to mash temps etc.



Sorry T.D. I think i misread your post. I interpreted that sentence as 'when brewing a pilsner, pilsner malt will make it light and crisp'. On a second look, i obviously misinterpreted... but still added some decent advice anyway! :lol:


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## T.D. (23/3/09)

Adamt said:


> If there's anything else in the mash tun, Munich, crystal, choc, roast, etc. you wouldn't be able to tell the difference flavour-wise. Same would go for a big flavour hop addition.



I disagree, only if there are 20% specialties would this be possible. As an example, say you brewed the recipe below with pils and ale malt, you would easily notice a lighter body in the pils malt brew. Well, these are my findings anyway, having made lots of similar recipies with ale pils and a combo of both.

90% Base Malt
5% Wheat
5% Crystal


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## warrenlw63 (23/3/09)

Swinging Beef

I reckon you'll get a lot of differing answers to your question. Best bet is to satisfy your curiousity by doing two identical batches with 100% base malt of the types you're trying to compare. That will tell you a lot. 

Having done 100% BB Ale, BB Pale & Baird's Marris Otter beers I can say that there is enough of a difference (between the BB malts) for the malsters to have a reason to make the malt different in the first place. BB Pale & Ale are visually and flavour-wise different with the Ale having a more rounded character. That being said I don't notice a lot of difference between MO and BB Ale when used 100%. MO has a slight edge but not as much as you may think. Colour-wise they finish similar too.

Summary: I could have trouble picking a 100% (Baird's) MO brew from a 100% BB Ale brew. The 100% BB Pale (pilsner malt) brew is a fair bit different.

Disclaimer: This does not apply to Fawcett's MO because I've not used it for about 6 years since it was last imported.

Warren -


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## Fourstar (23/3/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Disclaimer: This does not apply to Fawcett's MO because I've not used it for about 6 years since it was last imported.



Craftbrewer has it back in stock again Warren, I remember seeing Bribie talking about getting 20kg. $100+ a sack... is it worth it?!?!


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## warrenlw63 (23/3/09)

Stretching my vague memory Fawcett's is miles ahead of Baird's. Could just be nostalgia talking too. :unsure: 

There'd be plenty who've used both more recently than me. Hopefully they'll offer up some answers.

Warren -


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## Muggus (23/3/09)

After recently purchasing a sack of JW Pilsner from my LHBS simply because it was the only base malt he had a large amount of, I've found it actually works pretty well for most styles. Brewed a number of ales recently, and i'm happy with them.
Helps having a bit of extra specialties onhand like Carapils, if you're sticking to a very basic grain bill and want to add that bit of extra colour and maltiness that JW Ale malt generally has.

Though i'm a bit cautious using Pils as my base, and make sure I do at 90+min boil, just to be sure I don't get any DMS.


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## Screwtop (23/3/09)

Lots of info available re the difference if you care to search. Pils malt is kilned for less time than ale malt, as DMS precursors do not evolved during the shorter kilning time pils malt is more likely to produce beers with some dms, longer boils can reduce this, however low levels of dms are acceptable in some pilsener beer styles.

So can you interchange one for the other - As in all things brewing "It Depends", does the style you are brewing require Pils Malt character? If you only have pils malt and only want to do a 60min boil and want to make an ale using some specialty malts with a hint of DMS then yes. The result using any malt, is up to the brewer and his processes. Why pay more for Pils malt then add some crystal to make an ale :blink: 

Screwy


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## matti (23/3/09)

Pilsner malt is slightly paler as it has been kilned at a lower temperature.
Modification is pretty much the same these days ,correct me if I am wrong, but you'll are have more DMS in the pilsner malt, a longer boil would be recommended.

Brewing side by side you should have better attenuation with Pils malt.

Brewing an ale using pils malt as base is probably more common then you think.
I would think the other way around would be less common but then again,,,
Some of the really dark lager might as well use Ale malt as the darker malt are more dominant.
The trouble using ale brewing lager is you'll will end up with a much sweeter beer then the style is asking for and the yeast has to work longer and harder to eat up the more complicated sugar hence a longer lagering period would be required.

Before I lose my self and the audience.

Use ale malt for ale and Pils for lagers and when you run out, do what is necessary! _*Experiment. *_ 

Matti


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## Kai (23/3/09)

Seems like most of the differences between ale an pils malts have been covered, but perhaps another thing worth mentioning is you also get a big difference between maltsters when comparing their respective ale and/or pils malts to one another. Perhaps arguably as big a difference as comparing ale to pils malt in general.


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## dr K (23/3/09)

Kai nails it.
There is also some varietal character to take into account. Maris Otter and Halcyon seeem more suited to ale (yet Pearl is one of the most popular/common British ale varieties) whereas Hanka is the true pilsener variety.
Both ale and pilsener malts are pale malts, try brewing 100% Halcyon from Thomas Fawcett, the finished beer colour is lighter than some pilseners!
Ale will generally be kilned a degree or two higher.
Do not forget from an historical perspective it was the British method of making pale malts that was adapted by the wise brewers of Pilsen in order to make the first pilseners.

K


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## warrenlw63 (23/3/09)

dr K said:


> try brewing 100% Halcyon from Thomas Fawcett, the finished beer colour is lighter than some pilseners!



I'll have to take your word for it dr k as I've never tried it. However These are the specs from the Craftbrewer website. This taken into account it shouldn't produce a wort any lighter than their Maris Otter.

Fawcett's
Golden Promise 5-7 EBC
Halcyon 4.5-7 EBC
Maris Otter 4.5-7 EBC

Baird's
Golden Promise 5-7 EBC
Perle 5-7 EBC
Maris Otter 5-7 EBC

Barrett Burston
Ale 5-7 EBC
Galaxy Pilsner 3-4 EBC
Pale Pilsner 3-4 EBC

Weyermann
Pilsner 3-5 EBC
Premium Pilsner 2-3 EBC
Bohemian Pilsner 3-4 EBC


Warren -


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## dr K (23/3/09)

There we have it then.
Both TF MO and Halcyon are able (batch to batch to batch) to produce a paler beer than Weyermann Pilsener.
Bairds Pale Ales are able to produce a beer as light as Weyermann Pilsener.
It has been mentioned that varietal differences in the strain of barley may be more important. Of course nitrogen levels vary (bout as much as EBC really).
Australian Pilsener Malt made from Gairdiner (or Sloop or Schooner or Franklin or whatever), is it going to be markedly different from Ale Malt made from the same grain, I bet not, and I can bet its the same hopper as well.

K


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## Tim (24/3/09)

With the JW malts I found that the JW trad ale malt does not clear as well as the JW Pilsner malt. I also had a small but detectable DMS poroblem when using the JW trad ale. I think that there is only 1 ebc or so difference between them?

I started using JW Pilsner malt as my base malt for all styles after Gerard told me that was what he used at Paddy's (back around 2003/2004). It also happens to work out the most economical as well.


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## mje1980 (24/3/09)

I love to use Maris Otter for my bitters, but have, and will happily use pils in them, as well as blonde ales, and APA's. Just add a touch of amber,brown, or choc. Still makes great beer. I doubt i could pick the difference taste wise, unless maybe it was 100% base malt in each beer.


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## /// (24/3/09)

Theres quite a few of those funny things with those weird paper page things that will deliver all those answers and more. There is a varietal difference via the malt strain, technical difference via the malting process and a specification difference (colour, WK index, total extract etc etc).

Rather than ill-informed opinion, may as well start with the best .... Malting and Brewing Science


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## T.D. (24/3/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> I'll have to take your word for it dr k as I've never tried it. However These are the specs from the Craftbrewer website. This taken into account it shouldn't produce a wort any lighter than their Maris Otter.
> 
> Fawcett's
> Golden Promise 5-7 EBC
> ...



Do these numbers look a little strange to anyone else? From my experience GP produces much lighter-coloured wort than MO...

I had a quick look on the Bairds website and it quotes 5-7 as the EBC for their "Pale" malt. That must be why Ross has quoted it as being the same for each type, but I would guess that GP has a lower EBC than MO in reality...


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## warrenlw63 (24/3/09)

/// said:


> Rather than ill-informed opinion



Why ill-informed Scotty? I'm sure most of the information offered up is by the homebrewer's practical experiences with the grain (well at least I hope it is). It is after all a "homebrewing" forum.  

Warren -


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## warrenlw63 (24/3/09)

T.D. said:


> Do these numbers look a little strange to anyone else?



Hey T.D. these were taken from the Craftbrewer website... Surely they're not wrong?

Warren -


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## T.D. (24/3/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey T.D. these were taken from the Craftbrewer website... Surely they're not wrong?
> 
> Warren -



Couldn't possibly be Warren.


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## Bribie G (24/3/09)

/// said:


> Theres quite a few of those funny things with those weird paper page things that will deliver all those answers and more. There is a varietal difference via the malt strain, technical difference via the malting process and a specification difference (colour, WK index, total extract etc etc).
> 
> Rather than ill-informed opinion, may as well start with the best .... Malting and Brewing Science


Golden. I've bookmarked it and will settle down for a good read when there's nothing on TV which is most of the time nowadays :icon_cheers:


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (24/3/09)

Here is a beer brewed with 100% TF MO just for interest sake.

C&B
TDA


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## brendo (24/3/09)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> Here is a beer brewed with 100% TF MO just for interest sake.
> 
> C&B
> TDA



that looks great... feeling kinda thirsty now...

Brendo


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## /// (24/3/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Why ill-informed Scotty? I'm sure most of the information offered up is by the homebrewer's practical experiences with the grain (well at least I hope it is). It is after all a "homebrewing" forum.
> 
> Warren -



Sorry, nup. The information in Briggs covers _brewing_ , they make no difference between home or professional. The information within is backwards compatible if I make take words from a former profession. And whilst I continue this rant, the last time I looked there are only 2 brewers large enough to sit behind screens, the rest of the 120 or so breweries with staff getting paid have more than practical input into the exercise and can draw from this experience. i.e. they lift the heavy crap like everyone else.

The focus of home brewers is wort production. This is something that can be measured via basic tools (a hydrometer) and other testing (sensory analysis). Other aspects of downstream issues such as DO, Total PU's are not easily tested and are outside of the current thread. The questions asked were based on grist bill composition and hence wort production, here Briggs will give a chock of information.

And yes Warren, I did think that response of yours pretty rude. 

Scotty


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/3/09)

T.D. said:


> Do these numbers look a little strange to anyone else? From my experience GP produces much lighter-coloured wort than MO...
> 
> I had a quick look on the Bairds website and it quotes 5-7 as the EBC for their "Pale" malt. That must be why Ross has quoted it as being the same for each type, but I would guess that GP has a lower EBC than MO in reality...


I have found GP (Bairds) to be a deeper more inviting golden colour.MO is lighter in my opinion and much less character in a single malt beer..
GB


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## dr K (24/3/09)

> Why ill-informed Scotty? I'm sure most of the information offered up is by the homebrewer's practical experiences with the grain (well at least I hope it is). It is after all a "homebrewing" forum.



A "homebrewing" forum. Exactly and exactly why ill-informed messages are propogated.

An English Ale Malt is very different from a German Pilsener malt, very different varieties, different nitrogen levels, different malting processes, all as one would expect ans they are aimed at two very different styles of beer and methods of production of that beer (mash -wise). Both will be very different from Australian malts.
Traditionally British barley has a higher protein level and is more highly modified than European malts. A higher modification enables a very simple mashing routine and a higher protein will generally mean a higher diastatic power and a greater ability to use use low enzyme adjuncts.

Assuming that JW Trad Ale and Pilsener are really all that different (they would both come come from the same malting barley with roughly the same specs) perhaps the Trad Ale is kilned a tad higher or a tad longer then it seems odd that one would produce all that different a beer than the other, even used 100% the final wort colours are both within range of being identical, clarity (based on grain selection alone) should be identical and DMS if anything should be higher in the Pilsener Malt than the Ale, yet we find quite different results being quoted by practical home brewers.

In the end it is a matter of personal choice and personal taste, if you are happy with the beer you are brewing then really that is all that counts..

K


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## warrenlw63 (24/3/09)

/// said:


> Sorry, nup. {clipped for brevity} of information.
> 
> And yes Warren, I did think that response of yours pretty rude.
> 
> Scotty



Or ill-informed? You may say it was pretty rude but I didn't elude to others espousing ill-informed opinions.  

Warren -


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## Tim (25/3/09)

I was just speaking in regards to the JW malts from my own experience. I found the JW Pils to be more versitile. I cannot comment on other varieties as i have not tried them.


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