# Vic Xmas 2009 Case Swap - Tasting Thread



## brettprevans (24/11/09)

Brewmeister70 has already kicked things off by tucking into the swap. So here's the tasting thread - GO!


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## Brewmeister70 (24/11/09)

Cheers CM2! I have to consult my tasting notes at home but will post them tonight if given the leeway to do so


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## Fents (24/11/09)

i've just cracked a tester bottle of my cream ale and i think its a bit under carb'd...i filled all those bottles from a keg, even tried to counter act it by upping the pressure a few days before so it would be over carb'd but looks like no joy. 

also might have oxidised a bit (im getting a hint of vinegar...a hint, not much) as i just could not fill the bottles all the way to the top due to foam. i froze the bottles, sanitised them (wet inside) prior to bottling.

fournuts whats your thoughts? headspace im thinking? tell me if it tastes anything like you had out of the same keg?

Anyways not a great beer but not a bad one all the same, was 10 outta 10 in the keg. maybe time to invest in a CPBF.


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## Brewmeister70 (24/11/09)

*#19 Fents Cream Ale*

Pale gold colour, lowish carbonation, clarity good, low head but good retention. Looks appetising...

Nose is mostly lactic acid in my bottle, making me suspect an infection before tasting.

The taste is ale malt -like with some toasty qualities and low bitterness that finishes with a lactic tang which is actually quite pleasant! There is also a delicate graininess in the finish which is dry (low mash temp?)

I see why you wanted this drunk asap now but it works well as a slightly soured beer: The sourness adds interest without funkiness to an otherwise less interesting beer (a real summer quaffer which is to style and seems to be a specialty of Fents for some reason  )

There is a low-level flavour hop in the finish, maybe a citric type American hop that seems to compliment the clean lactic character. This is an interesting beer that must have been amazingly easy to drink in it's hayday, which seems to have passed us if your bottle and mine are anything to go by. Even so, I enjoyed it down to the last drop. 

Cheers Fents :icon_cheers:


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## Brewmeister70 (24/11/09)

*#1 Kleiny's Helles*

Mid-deep gold, very clear with some particulate (did you counter-pressure fill these?) and a low head. 

Nose is a mixture of bready malt with low - medium amount of banana esters and just a touch of noble hops (where's the recipe Kleiny?) This beer smells very European and moorish - I was chomping at the bit to drink some after taking a whiff!

The flavour shows a low - medium amount of flavour hops to balance a Munich malt driven palate that has a fruity finish which suits the beer. The body is medium - light with a hop/malt balance pleasantly favouring the malt, which is to style, and the bitterness comes in late and softly to _just_ keep it from being cloying in the end. 

A really nice drop that I can only pick as being different from a commercial Helles in the estery character (banana) in the nose and taste with a little acetaldehyde as it warmed. This beer is a credit to your brewing skills Kleiny, seeing as this must be one of the hardest styles to get right at home. Your record remains intact as one to watch in these swaps. Well done! 

:icon_drool2:


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## Fents (24/11/09)

Hops in that one were saphire brewmeister...usually we use Liberty but we had run out. thanks for the truthful review too makes it easier.


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## Kleiny (24/11/09)

Im glad you liked it BM but i fear that the Counter Pressure filler may have left some a little low on carb. They are a right pain to use. 

The recipe is the same as my 4th in vic brew last year, you can see it in the DB.

Kleiny


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## Maple (24/11/09)

just a thought, but seeing as there are quite a few of us on BJCP training, it might be a worthwhile activity to actually score the swap as it would help us, as well as giving the swapies actual scoring to go by. By no means should we limit it to those just doing the training, if others want to give it a go, it can benefit us all, and develop some more potential judges for future comps. Just a thought, interested to hear what y'all think.


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## WarmBeer (24/11/09)

Objective feedback is always good. Pretty sure all of us can learn a thing or two from an educated palate (or one currently undergoing edumacation).

And being honest is much better than sugar coating your opinions. I don't think any of us put our beers in thinking we're the best brewer in the world (except possibly Chris, as he might just be the best brewer in the world :beerbang: ).

I for one look forward to a sh!t-canning that I can learn from, and better with my next case swap beer.


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## manticle (24/11/09)

I'd prefer no sugar coating. Half the reason for swapping is to get useful feedback (the other half is to get beer).

Just put a couple in the fridge for tasting tomorrow. No BJCP from me but I will be honest.


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## Fourstar (25/11/09)

Fents said:


> also might have oxidised a bit (im getting a hint of vinegar...a hint, not much) as i just could not fill the bottles all the way to the top due to foam. i froze the bottles, sanitised them (wet inside) prior to bottling.
> fournuts whats your thoughts? headspace im thinking? tell me if it tastes anything like you had out of the same keg?



I'll have to crank yous into the fridge tonight and have a taster. If you are getting Vinegar thats an acetobacter infection. It could also be lacto, it could be hard to differentiate in the early stages.

Did you do a run through of sanitiser/clean the bar tap before you began filling the swap beer bottles or have you broken your tap down recently for a scrubbing? It might be hiding gunk thats eventually souring your beer once it gets into the bottles but perfectly fine into your glass if the beer isnt sitting long enough in the lines and tap for it to funk up.

Atleast thats what i found with one of my broncos after cleaning and sanitising for the swap. I thaught, 'i might as well break it down and check it', im glad i did.

There was some gunk around the seal on one of them, needless to say im now going to be scrubbing my taps quarterly or before bottling for competitions from now on.

I hope my bottle isnt funked mate, as the cream ale was tip top the night you bottled it. I can vouch for that! 

EDIT: Just noticed the headspace thing, i doubt thats the case as when you where filling you had foaming at the end everytime to the mouth of the bottle, knocking out any excess O2. I'd say you would be safe on that one, just guessing i'd point it to something todo with the tap and not the bottling process/bottles at this point. h34r:


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## brettprevans (25/11/09)

i cant fn beleive im going to have to wait 4 months to taste these beers. there;s no way i can read this thread anymore. its going to be torture.
Just a reminder fellas to update the wiki to show when your beer should be drunk.


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## Maple (25/11/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> i cant fn beleive im going to have to wait 4 months to taste these beers. there;s no way i can read this thread anymore. its going to be torture.
> Just a reminder fellas to update the wiki to show when your beer should be drunk.


uh, about that... I may have accidentally consumed a few of your swap beers. had a couple outta my box, and could stop at just one, and thought, hey, there's another box of em just here...and well the next swap will be coming up soon anyway mate.


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## brettprevans (25/11/09)

nice dave. really nice.  

no worries.  i'll put it down to being a transport levy to bendigo & back and 1 nights accomadation in the shortbus!


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## Maple (25/11/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> nice dave. really nice.
> 
> no worries.  i'll put it down to being a transport levy to bendigo & back and 1 nights accomadation in the shortbus!


Just kidding bro! seeing if you were paying attention.


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## brettprevans (25/11/09)

smart arse! keep it on topic!


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## Leigh (25/11/09)

Please score away BJCP guys...would be interested to see what the numbers might be...


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## Fourstar (25/11/09)

Leigh said:


> Please score away BJCP guys...would be interested to see what the numbers might be...



More so if they are within a 7 point spread! 

Do you guys want us to post the results here? Even if they are bad.... h34r: 

I don't really want to be publicly dragging people through the mud here. Results even if poor will come with constructive suggestions for improvement.


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## WarmBeer (25/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> More so if they are within a 7 point spread!
> 
> Do you guys want us to post the results here? Even if they are bad.... h34r:
> 
> I don't really want to be publicly dragging people through the mud here. Results even if poor will come with constructive suggestions for improvement.



Yeah, go ahead, bring it on, Fourstar 

It will only be of interest to ourselves, it's not like any of the Queenslander's regularly troll this thread. Oh, hang on...


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## Maple (25/11/09)

Fair points, perhaps we only score those that want it, those who do not comment - no score. I think it'll be an interesting exercise to see how the spread works out. 

I'll gladly put my contribution up, so I think we have so far:
Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh


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## brendo (25/11/09)

I'll happily go through the exercise of scoring/commenting on beers as per BJCP - good practice for the exam next year (top idea Maple) and happy to provide that level of detail to those who want it.

Also happy to hear the good, bad and ugly on my contribution - afterall that is one of the reason I participate in these things.

So it looks like the current list is:

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo


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## zebba (25/11/09)

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba

I went in this to learn stuff, not to get circle-jerked. Although that was fun Saturday night also 

(Edit: Added Brendo)


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## Fents (25/11/09)

no score for me pls fella's i know where my beers at dont need 15 others confirming it for me.


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## Hutch (25/11/09)

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch

Yep, I'll join in as well. Only issue is that I can't quite pidgeon-hole my beer in a specific style category.
I'd categorise it as a new-world German Pilsner (ie. German pils brewed with NZ hops).
BJCP category 18.7 - "Other Specialty".


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## Supra-Jim (25/11/09)

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch
Supra-Jim

I been canned before, and can probably handle it again, bring it on!!  

Cheers SJ

edit: I actually have a very fragile ego and am currently experiencing a rare moment of bravado! :wacko:


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## gava (25/11/09)

I would like mine reviewed and abused...


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## seemax (25/11/09)

sounds good to me, i must be brave I haven't even sampled my beer yet !!

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch
Supra-Jim
Seemax


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## Hutch (25/11/09)

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch
Supra-Jim
Seemax
gava


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## Leigh (25/11/09)

seemax said:


> sounds good to me, i must be brave I haven't even sampled my beer yet !!



Haven't sampled mine yet either h34r:

But I'm confident that I'll get a positive result (I don't think you can get a score below 0 under BJCP)


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## Leigh (25/11/09)

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch
Supra-Jim
Seemax
gava
cm2
4*

Afterall, 'tis only fair that they cop a baggin' too if they are baggin' us


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## Maple (25/11/09)

Leigh said:


> Maple
> Warmbeer
> Manticle
> Leigh
> ...


Don't think CM2 will be doing all that much reviewing, but up to him if he wants in. kleiny and shit-hot-brewerChris should be in though...


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## Fourstar (25/11/09)

Yeah of course i'll be in! 

To reduce bias in judging, should we all hold off on giving the scores out until everyone judging has scored the beer or just go nuts?!?


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## Wonderwoman (25/11/09)

I'd be interested to get a score on my beer ...and I think I can handle criticism


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## Fourstar (25/11/09)

And the prize you get for best of swap?!?!

You have to provide the recipe. :icon_chickcheers:


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## therook (25/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> And the prize you get for best of swap?!?!
> 
> You have to provide the recipe. :icon_chickcheers:



You get to chew on a pair of Barra's Undies :icon_cheers: 

Rook


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## Fents (25/11/09)

speaking of did Mr Barra make it to the swap?


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## Fourstar (25/11/09)

therook said:


> You get to chew on a pair of Barra's Undies :icon_cheers:
> 
> Rook



Isn't that the reason why you couldn't make the swap Rooky? :icon_vomit: 

:lol:


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## scott_penno (25/11/09)

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch
Supra-Jim
Seemax
gava
cm2
4*
sappas


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## Kleiny (25/11/09)

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch
Supra-Jim
Seemax
gava
cm2
4*
sappas
Kleiny

Happy to score and be scorned

Hay rook the Banana Flu didnt kill you :lol:


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## Wonderwoman (25/11/09)

oops... forgot to put my nme on the list

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch
Supra-Jim
Seemax
gava
cm2
4*
sappas
Kleiny
Wonderwoman


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## brettprevans (25/11/09)

happy to be to be shit canned or awarded prizes in a bjcp oriented manner. of course i wont be sampling any for a while but happy to be rated.


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## therook (25/11/09)

Kleiny said:


> Maple
> Warmbeer
> Manticle
> Leigh
> ...




No Kleiny i've come good but have passed it onto the little fella....

Rook


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## Fourstar (25/11/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> happy to be to be shit canned or awarded prizes in a bjcp oriented manner. of course i wont be sampling any for a while but happy to be rated.



See that signature of yours? I expect it to be double the length it currently is in 4 months time. Not to mention a super-fun party organised at yours to help deplete said beer list :beerbang:


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## manticle (25/11/09)

We should shut up and start tasting.

I thought I'd go in numerical order as far as those that are ready to drink goes so first up is:

1. kleiny - Munich Helles.

Served chilled in a clean, non-chilled glass.

I'm not familiar with this style so my comments are purely based on my impressions of the beer itself. Where brewers seem pretty experienced I'll probably only make light reference to basics like head retention and carbonation unless it warrants a mention. In this beer's case all those things have been knocked on the head (pun slightly intended).

Golden colour, fluffy head, lace as it progresses. Clear

Aroma gives me a scent of something sweet and honeylike. I'm glad that the first sip backs this up as well. It's something I get with some pilseners/pilsners and I'm not sure if it's the pilsner malt or something from one of the noble hops. Whatever it is, I'm a fan. The honey sweetness is nicely balanced with just a hint of bitterness at the finish.

The beer is quite malty and full bodied. There's something almost biscuit like or toasty in the finish too - not sure what it is but it adds to the beer.

Not over the top in any way - subtle balanced flavours and very refreshing as the weather warms up. Reminds me a little of some of the gutsier Eastern European lagers and if it's an indication of how the other swap beers will be then I'm looking forward to them.

I've made a vow that I'm not going to read any style guidelines about beers until after I've tasted them. Likewise the recipes. Just read the bjcp guidelines following tasting and this one seems spot on.


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## Brewmeister70 (25/11/09)

*#5 Fourstar's Viet Lager*

Straw colour, slightly hazy (I crash chilled this in the freezer) with high carbonation and very good retention of a low head.

Very low malt and hop on the nose (true to style) and minimal yeast character - very, very clean.

Light body with low malt and a very dry finish. hop-malt balance comes down on the hop side but not by much: Almost evenly balanced but the hops lingered the longest in the finish. I can't beleive how clean this beer is. There seems to be a trace of citrussy hop flavour in there but this is an awesomely crafted beer in terms of balance and minimalism of flavour (like an aussie lager). I don't mean that as a criticism but as praise for your skill and ability to nail the guidelines.

This could be confused for something like Tiger Beer in a blind tasting and I'd encourage you to give this a go with some mates. 10/10 for stylistic accuracy and could you tell us how you got this so clean in terms of fermentation? There's really nowhere to hide... I hope you've put some aside for competitions Fourstar.

Cheers for another great beer :beer: 

*#21 Hutch's Pseudo-Nelson sauvin Lager*

Deep gold colour, low head, medium-high carbonation with good retention of head. Bright clarity.

Nose is unsurprisingly all about the Nelson Sauvin: Medium intensity grape/passion fruit that dominates the other characters apart from a little honeyish fermentation character creeping through.

Flavour is similarly hop-driven in that the hop flavour masks the flavours of the malt, however the bitterness is medium which does let the malt come through at the finish. The malt is quite toasty and amber-like in character which is a good contrast to the fruity flavour of the hops.

The body is medium with possibly some crystal malt helping to enhance this and add to the sweetness that works in with the hops. 

I found this to be an interesting beer that tends more toward an American pale ale in style than a lager with it's toasty elements and big fruity flavour hopping, though I see where you're coming from in the psot about the actual ingredients putting into the speciality category Hutch.

Another good effort and I feel it's time to try using some of these Sauvin hops after trying this so cheers.

:icon_cheers:


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## Brewmeister70 (25/11/09)

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch
Supra-Jim
Seemax
gava
cm2
4*
sappas
Kleiny
BM70


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## Leigh (25/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> Yeah of course i'll be in!
> 
> To reduce bias in judging, should we all hold off on giving the scores out until everyone judging has scored the beer or just go nuts?!?




As you score em mate, I don't want no collusion between you guys


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## manticle (25/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> Yeah of course i'll be in!
> 
> To reduce bias in judging, should we all hold off on giving the scores out until everyone judging has scored the beer or just go nuts?!?



Lets not get silly. We're all interested in good honest feedback, particularly from people with training and experience but also from those without. Taste and provide honest, accurate feedback as it happens, that's my vote. 

Just because I have trouble finding it each time here is a link to the original swap article: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showarticle=100

#3 : Seemax - Kiwi Pale ale

First up I noticed a few people cheated a touch and used some of those bottles from the LHBS that are around 650 mL. I guess I'll cope.

Colour golden, cloudy, good head and lacing which remains. 

Unfortunately this is all I can really say about this beer because all I can taste is vinegar. I had a panicked moment at first because I rinse my glasses with clean white vinegar after using any detergents (then rinse again). However I've poured a bit into a second glass and necked a bit of the remainder out of the bottle and I get the same slight sourness in all three tastings which I don't believe is intentional.

I've been getting into a few sour beers and ciders recently so I've been trying to rack my brains for how to make this work but I don't really think it suits. Somewhere along the line, a vinegar infection has taken hold. Hopefully it's just my bottle.


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## kenlock (25/11/09)

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch
Supra-Jim
Seemax
gava
cm2
4*
sappas
Kleiny
Wonderwoman
BM70
Kenlock

Edit: Not sure how much I can contribute in regards to evaluation but it will help me extend my tasting vocab. Kind of planning to take my own notes and taste beers after others so that I can compare what I'm tasting/smelling/seeing.

PS. Put you back on Wonderwoman.


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## kenlock (25/11/09)

Kleiny said:


> Im glad you liked it BM but i fear that the Counter Pressure filler may have left some a little low on carb. They are a right pain to use.
> 
> The recipe is the same as my 4th in vic brew last year, you can see it in the DB.
> 
> Kleiny



*#1 Kleiny's Munich Helles*
I think I got one of those. No hiss upon opening and no head with the pour. Still a lovely beer.
Golden to deep golden colour (or is it just my lighting) with good clarity. I can see what Manticle is saying with the sweetness with a hint of bitterness.
Do get that toasty malt taste, and full body. Definitely has that regional taste (yeast and noble hops).

Cheers Ken


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## chris.taylor.98 (25/11/09)

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch
Supra-Jim
Seemax
gava
cm2
4*
sappas
Kleiny
Wonderwoman
BM70
Kenlock
Chris Taylor

As the BJCP course organiser guess I better put my name down  ... not sure that I will be doing the full blown evaluations personally, but will watch with interest to see what creative descriptive language course attendees can come up with. 

Actually think this is a great exercise for you guys, posting it all online so you can learn off each other.


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## brendo (26/11/09)

I tried mine last night guys - still a bit green and the hops haven't settled in just yet. I would give 7 a few more weeks yet, have updated the wiki accordingly.

Brendo


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## Hutch (26/11/09)

*17a. Zebba - "Redcoats" IPA*

A bit short on time, so just a quick recap while I can remember the details...

Deep gold, quite hazy with good carbonation, and great head retention (dense head the length of the pint glass!)

Aroma - First impression was nice hop aroma, with some pungent American hops quite evident. Also a slight musty/dusty character in the background - I suspect yeast character.

Flavour - moderate hops, some residual extract sweetness. Good clean ferment, with minimal higher alcohols, although I also got some obvious yeast character that sings "S-04" to me. It is quite prominent - slightly musty and dirty, with some acetaldehyde as the beer warms.

I would recommend thinking about yeast selection for this style (say US-05, or better - WY1056, WY1272), as the yeast character detracts from an otherwise well crafted beer.

Cheers Zebba.


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## zebba (26/11/09)

Hutch said:


> I would recommend thinking about yeast selection for this style (say US-05, or better - WY1056, WY1272), as the yeast character detracts from an otherwise well crafted beer.


Thanks heaps Hutch. Agree 100% with that comment. I had a bit of an addiction to S04 for a few months there (strange, I know), and everything I brewed was using it. In hindsight, it wasn't a great choice.


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## Fourstar (26/11/09)

*19. Fents Cream Ale *

 Emoticon says a thousand words. Looks like its lactic bud. I'll give you a breakdown of what i tasted.

Light Lactic sourness on the nose, overtakes all malt aroma when fridge cold. As it warms you get some sweet malt/breadiness coming through, somewhat pilsner sweet on the aroma. No hop aroma present. Aroma is otherwise clean.

Appearance is hazy with a golden hue, flavour is tart and lactic, firm peppery/spicy bitterness on the palate and finish is lingering with the bitterness. Mouthfeel was spritzy and drying, malty sweetness was evident on the palate as i worked my way through the sample but unfortunatly its not the beer we once knew Fents! 

Honestly, if you have any of these lying around i'd keep a hold of them, its definitly lactic at this point. You might be able to kick off a decent "Imperial Berliner Weisse" as its balanced quite well @ 6%  You might get some itneresting results in VICBREW nextyear if you enter as a specialty. best of all the carbonation is only going to get better!

Ive been pondering a Kentucky Common for a while to enter it in the next vicbrew. Basically a Dark amber/copper coloured Soured Cream Ale/Cal Common. Atleast thats what most literature says. I somewhat doubt it ever being like Guinness.

http://homebrewer2005.blogspot.com/2008/02...ommon-rant.html
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Kentucky_Common


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## Fents (26/11/09)




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## beerDingo (26/11/09)

Maple
Warmbeer
Manticle
Leigh
Brendo
Zebba
Hutch
Supra-Jim
Seemax
gava
cm2
4*
sappas
Kleiny
Wonderwoman
BM70
Kenlock
Chris Taylor
beerDingo

Bring the good, bad or ugly comments!


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## manticle (26/11/09)

Got an unexpected day off today so I've had the opportunity to crack one a little early.

5. Fourstar - Reunification Express, Viet Rice Lager 

Head forms then dissipates to a thin but retained one. Lacing evident.

Pale golden colour, fairly clear but slight haze.

This is a nice clean lager but reading above I was maybe expecting less flavour. The cleanness does not make this a boring beer. There's a pleasant hops bitterness and the carbonation level seems to accentuate that. There's a very mild orange on the nose and at the front of the palate that I would attribute to hops. I don't know which one. I know I could check the recipe but I'm trying to provide my initial impressions.

There's also something else going on and I'm going to take a stab and suggest it's water additions. It sits at the same part of the palate as the hops bitterness but there's also what might be described as an almost imperceptible saltiness or tanginess at the front of the palate. It's not something I've experienced before and it's certainly not something I would describe as a fault although I'm not sure if I should actually be tasting it. It simultaneously seems to aid in thirst quenching and make me want to take another sip. Unfortunately I can only guess this because I know you are keen on additions - if I knew nothing about your brewing I'm not sure I would have guessed this as the reason or not. 

Someone suggested similar to tiger beer but I would rate this above. I like Tiger and I think it does exactly what it's supposed to (clean refreshing, good with spicy food and hot weather) but this does all that and is a bit more interesting/flavoursome.

No esters or yeasty flavours. Not a load of maltiness either but I do get a touch and wonder if there'd be more without the above described character that I've suggested is additions.

Enjoyable summer beer while I struggle through an overdue assignment.


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## Fourstar (26/11/09)

manticle said:


> There's also something else going on and I'm going to take a stab and suggest it's water additions. It sits at the same part of the palate as the hops bitterness but there's also what might be described as an almost imperceptible saltiness or tanginess at the front of the palate. It's not something I've experienced before and it's certainly not something I would describe as a fault although I'm not sure if I should actually be tasting it. It simultaneously seems to aid in thirst quenching and make me want to take another sip. Unfortunately I can only guess this because I know you are keen on additions - if I knew nothing about your brewing I'm not sure I would have guessed this as the reason or not.
> 
> No esters or yeasty flavours. Not a load of maltiness either but I do get a touch and wonder if there'd be more without the above described character that I've suggested is additions.



Hmm, this is the approximate water profile i had in ppm

Ca 85, Mg 2, Na 16, SO4 53, Cl 114, HCO3 47

Observing the above, the SO4:Cl ratio is balanced well in the Chloride department at 2:1 Saltiness on the palate is only tasted as sodium, not chloride which is quite low with the Na @ 22ppm. I would say the Cl is middle of the road and i wouldnt say its going overboard. The high end would be 150+ with 300ppm being noticably excessive. With chloride you can get a 'warming sensation' on your tongue if you pop a flake in your mouth (i dont recommend it). 

I dont know if thats what you are experiencing as you would only get that at very high concentrations as noted, im guesstimating around 300ppm+. With respect to something sitting with the hop bitterness thats something i can confirm and i'd point that to calcium, it can have a drying raspy effect on your tongue.



manticle said:


> _Not a load of maltiness either but I do get a touch and wonder if there'd be more without the above described character that I've suggested is additions._



Actually if there was no chloride the malt would be further muted. so would probabaly be more 'swill like' 

Either way, the water profile is nothing out of the ordinary. Rather balanced for the style of beer. The only thing that is 'out of place' is the HCO3 content. Yet, its still within an acceptable range for a pale rice lager. I'll have to taste my bottle to confirm what you are getting. 

The light fruit flavours you are getting may be from the US Magnum i used. As Perle is a noble hop being floral and spicy. Sort of a saaz come Hallertau come POR.

The recption i get for this beer will be interesting. Its not something easy to pull off. A light flavoured lager that still has malt flavour, nothing OTT, mild hops, thirst quenching and most of all being balanced. With these kind of beers, water additions are the difference between something great and something 'drinkable'. Like comparing a German and a Bohemian Pilsner. Biggest issue you will run into from having a 1st place Pilsner, German or Czech and a middle of the road one is its water profile. For these pale lagers, it can be the difference between 1st place and not placing at all.

If you made a German Pils recipe twice, once with low mineral count water and one with a bucket of calcium and SO4, i guarantee you the one with water additons will be the standout winner.


Either way, glad you liked the beer!


----------



## manticle (26/11/09)

Looking at the recipe after making the notes I wondered if it might be the baking soda?

As suggested - not a fault and certainly part of the beer profile. Having tried and failed pils wise once, I'm certain it's not easy to pull off.

I'm not even an infant when it comes to water additions so I'm not sure what it is I'm tasting. I have a reasonably keen palate, partly due to years spent working in kitchens so I've definitely picked something up - just not sure what it is.


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## Fourstar (26/11/09)

manticle said:


> Looking at the recipe after making the notes I wondered if it might be the baking soda?



I'd say not a chance, the bicarbonate of soda addition only adds like 16ppm or 16mg of Sodium to the L of beer as a total contribution, essentially thats just above trace minerals really. It could be the alkalinity giving a 'mouthfeel'? I'm not even sure what you would get from that as a 'flavour' or even if its detectable at those levels as 47 HCO3 is pretty low figure.

Yeah i'll have to take your thaughts on board and see if i can pick it up. From memory i do recall a 'citrus' characteristic lingering, very low however. Maybe its the sublety of the hop flavour among other things creating the perception you have. As i have said, the water profile for this beer is pretty middle of the road with nothing OTT so really it shouldnt have anything detectable/standout as an actual addition.


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## manticle (26/11/09)

#6: Citymorgue2: Aussie Gold Digger Lager

Golden- Amber colour, slight maltiness on the nose, fluffy head and lacing.

Fairly clear

Full bodied, malty and full rich mouthfeel.

Interestingly, despite being quite a different beer, I get a similar perception to fourstar's in terms of a kind of saltiness. I don't know if this is the best way to describe it and again it works with the beer - it kind of feels like it's working to quench the thirst. Just not sure what it is I'm detecting. If you've made no additions to your water then obviously I'm way off the mark and it's down to something else.

I can't detect a massive amount of hops although it does have a very pleasant lingering bitterness which balances with the malt. Very slight yeast character at the end of some of the sips. Not estery.
I reckon all the beers I've tried thus far (bar one) have been free of any discernible faults and are a testament to the skills of some good brewers. These beers would certainly dispel the myth that homebrew is a second rate way of saving a few bucks.

My understanding is that faults are pretty hard to hide behind these kinds of pale beers too.


----------



## WarmBeer (26/11/09)

4pm in the afternoon, and Manticle is 2 longnecks into the case swap tasting.

Sooooooo frickin jealous right now h34r:


----------



## manticle (26/11/09)

A rarity believe me. I found out at 4.30 pm yesterday that my services would not be required today as we'd run ourselves out of work by hanging all the paintings too quickly.

The wonderful life of a casual employee. I'd take the work over the early start time.


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## notung (26/11/09)

*BOTTLE BOMB BEWARE!* 


This morning I went into the shed to find bottle bomb shrapnel from my hefe. I really advise tasters to take precautions by putting this bottle in the fridge or perhaps gingerly opening up seal and recapping(?). I'm sorry if this has caused anyone grief!

I carbonated high - but I didn't think that high! The bottles that exploded in the shed were shitty, thinner stubbies so maybe it's not that bad. Please take precautions anyway and shield up while handling the hefe!


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## manticle (26/11/09)

Thanks for the warning - no 13 has now been wrapped tightly in glad wrap. Hope it doesn't explode though as I'm looking forward to trying this one.


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## Wonderwoman (26/11/09)

kenlock said:


> PS. Put you back on Wonderwoman.



thanks kenlock

*#1 Kleiny's Munich Helles*
my bottle had low carbonation, there was almost no head, but I still enjoyed it. I didn't take notes (sorry) so I'm using other peoples comments to jog my memory...
beautiful golden colour with good clarity. Nice subtle malt aroma. A hint of sweetness with a pleasant bitterness on the finish.
very enjoyable. Not the sort of style that would normally be my first choice, but I could easily picture myself drinking this all afternoon on a hot summers day


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## Kleiny (26/11/09)

Yep sorry about the carb thing guys looks a bit hit and miss.

Never using a CFBF again (hunks of #[email protected]%)

Easier just to fill straight from fermenter

Kleiny


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## Fents (26/11/09)

Kleiny said:


> Yep sorry about the carb thing guys looks a bit hit and miss.
> 
> Never using a CFBF again (hunks of #[email protected]%)
> 
> ...



yep i hear that!

just undid all my taps and fiitings. my gosh i nearly vomited. brown shit everywhere and you know what it had that exact same lactic smell the beer has. currently soaking in potasium metabisolphate.

lesson learned in a very public way.


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## brendo (26/11/09)

Fents said:


> yep i hear that!
> 
> just undid all my taps and fiitings. my gosh i nearly vomited. brown shit everywhere and you know what it had that exact same lactic smell the beer has. currently soaking in potasium metabisolphate.
> 
> lesson learned in a very public way.



easily done mate... and not a trap you will fall into again in a hurry!! I've got mine in the fridge and will probably sample it tonight.


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## Fourstar (26/11/09)

Fents said:


> yep i hear that!
> just undid all my taps and fiitings. my gosh i nearly vomited. brown shit everywhere and you know what it had that exact same lactic smell the beer has. currently soaking in potasium metabisolphate.
> lesson learned in a very public way.



Looks like i guessed it in one! Only because i almost found out the hard way like yourself fents! :icon_cheers:


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## Fourstar (26/11/09)

notung said:


> *BOTTLE BOMB BEWARE!*



OK, Fourstar has saved the day on Dingos and Hairofthedogs swaps (thanks for the Hefe Fents! )

I recapped the lucky number 13 bottles. The let off a marginal 'hiss' nothing extravagant. I'd say notung you just had a single bottle overprimed/infected. Unless you bulk primed i dont see these being super carbonated anytime soon.

Dont be too concerned at this point, all 4 i had were not about to pop their top.

I'll be tasting one tonight for true carbonation. :icon_cheers:


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## zebba (26/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> The let off a marginal 'hiss' nothing extravagant.


Ditto.

Now, onto the biz...

*#19 Fents Cream Ale

*Opening the bottle reveals almost no hiss. Is it carbed? I start pouring, and same issue - no carb, no head, at all. 

Take a mouthfull and I get a pleasant sweet flavour, but not much else. This is strange.

I'm drinking slowly, as my son is hasn't seen daddy in a couple of days and wants my attention, so it's now 10 minutes later. The glass has warmed up a little, and all of a sudden there's bubble. Tipping the glass is leaving some lacing behind on the glass and generating some small head. Flavour has also taken off - there is still that sweetness, but there is also a bitterness at the front which disappears quickly. As it warms more, the bitterness comes out more, and lingers longer. The malt also goes from being sweet to being a bit toastier. If I was going to compare it I'd say it was like an ale version of a "Boags Premium". 

And I'm not sure what the smell is... I've never smelt anything like it. I can detect a little of the lactic smell that Brewmeister79 mentioned, but it's definitely in the background. I didn't detect any of that in the tasting though.

I'm thinking my fridge is a bit cold, so I'll be adjusting that for future beverages. The initial thoughts were very underwhealming, but as it warmed it took on a lot more depth and character. Unfortunate that just as I was starting to enjoy it, it ran out.


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## Fourstar (26/11/09)

*13. Notung - bloodorange honey hefeweizen - drink 7 December or after - POSSIBLE BOTTLE BOMB BEWARE!*

Ok, so i decided to drink today to test it considering there was an explosion.  i'll give my score, true as of drinking it today. (i have two bottles thanks to fents so i'll judge again after the 7th of dec. )

*Im judging as a specialty hefeweizen. expecting to have blood orange aroma/flavour characteristics. possibly some colour.


Very low phenols detected, no esters. A fresh doughy bready characteristic with some light yeast aromas. No hops or detectable citrus or raspberry tart aromas (as blood orange somtimes has).
*Score: 5/12*


Straw to light gold in appearance, light haze and was attempted to be poured without excessive yeast, head retention very poor, non existant. No sprizy CO2 characteristics, no moussy head on pour. 
*Score: 1/3*


Light citrus flavour fills the palate, not hop derived, true citrus. Some yeasty doughiness compliments the citrus note. Has a background pilsner malt sweetness, clove Phenols present in the flavour and quite prominent, Finishes with heavy clove detracting somewhat from the initial impressions. 
*Score: 12/20*


Moderate motuhfeel with a low carbonation, the palate finishes quite full due to low carbonation. Unfortuantly this lacks the dry spritzy palate which is true to style of a weizen
*Score: 1/5*


Unfortunatly the low carbonation, lack of yeast profile on the nose are the major downfall in this beer. Requires more balance and higher carbonation to be true to style. these characteristics when lacking make this beer full, cloying and hard to palate. Lacks sessionability that a refreshing weizen has. No fermentation falts present.

Recipe suggestions: Blood organe needs to be increased to 'pop' above the yeast derived aromas and prominant doughyness that is usually derived from wheat malt and/or bottled yeast. Some minor tweaking on the ferment temperature to achieve a balance of clove/banana esters is prefered. Hold at middle of the range of the manufacturers specs for the entire fermentation period. 

Check priming rates for carbonation of bottles and increase blood orange zest/juice to help this characteristic stand out.
*Score: 3/10*

*Overall Score: 22/50*


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## seemax (26/11/09)

manticle said:


> I've been getting into a few sour beers and ciders recently so I've been trying to rack my brains for how to make this work but I don't really think it suits. Somewhere along the line, a vinegar infection has taken hold. Hopefully it's just my bottle.



Apologies to all, I have just sampled my beer and it appears to have vinegarised, my only guess is infection. I had another infection at the same time, my first infections since brewing. It appears to be caused by me trying to make the most of my yeast... damn!!

Live and learn....


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## Fourstar (26/11/09)

*1. Kleiny - Munich Helles - Drink Now*

Faintest Sulfur aroma detectable, low esters, otherwise clean, no hop aroma detectable, muted sweet/honey husky grain aroma present.
*Score: 7/12*

Gold in appearance, low whispy pub foam. Quite clear with some unfortunate protein/trub/hop matter present. Otherwise presents beautifuly
*Score: 2/3*

Malty doughy malt flavour fills the palate, finish is lightly toasty with some melanoiden breadcrust flavours apparent, hop flavour is minimal. Supporting bitterness is present. Rather clean palate, some slight mineral, possibly yeast derived falvours apparent. Finish is sweet and grainy.
*Score: 15/20*

Moderate mouthfeel, low carbonation, drying on the tongue, lingering mellow bitterness and sweet malt.
*Score: 4/5*

A decent representation of the style, only pitfalls may possibly be the choice of yeast strain or the fermentation temperature/pitching rates. Need to keep the sulfur production and esters down. The benchmark of this style is a clean, low hopped, malty pils like lager.

Upon evaluation, this beer may be more suited to the standard or permium american styles due to the yeast profile assoicated with this beer. If you control the ester and sulfur production, a clean top scoring Munich helles will be the result!
*Score: 7/10*

*Overall Score: 35/50*


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## Supra-Jim (27/11/09)

*5. Fourstar - Reunification Express Viet Rice Lager*

Very nice pale straw colour, was a touch hazy, and poured with a nice fluffy head, which lingered shortly, settling to a nice low head that lasted the entire glass.

Very clean on the nose. Finished nice and dry on palate and a very well balanced beer.

Very sessionable, and a great beer, well done 4*!!

Cheers SJ


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## WarmBeer (27/11/09)

*1. Kleiny - Munich Helles*

Enough has been said about this beer to know it's a good beer.

I was lucky and manged to get one with a decent bit of carb, and kept a small, but consistent head. Colour is beautiful, love the subtle hop aroma, and the honey/malt flavour.

Best beer of the swap, so far 

Thanks Kleiny.


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## zebba (27/11/09)

*1. Kleiny - Munich Helles*

Fridge was still too cold, so it poured with no head again. Crystal clear. Very mild carb which represents the only negative I could detect - a little more would have been nice, but it certainly isn't a big red cross. Once I let it warm up a bit, some real nice malt flavours started to come through. A very easy drinker, professionally presented. Could drink this one all day. So far I've been incredibly impressed with all of Kleiny's beers - keep up the good work


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## Wonderwoman (27/11/09)

seemax said:


> Apologies to all, I have just sampled my beer and it appears to have vinegarised, my only guess is infection. I had another infection at the same time, my first infections since brewing. It appears to be caused by me trying to make the most of my yeast... damn!!
> 
> Live and learn....




I tried this last night and my bottle was infected too  . That's really unfortunate timing. If you have some from another batch I'd be happy to try it though


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## brettprevans (27/11/09)

last night I tasted.....ummm nothing. GOD DAMN IT! why am i torturing myself with this thread.

well definitewly seems that Kleiny munich is leading the way by the reviews. 
4*'s 'love you long time' larger is exectly as it is meant to be. nothing more, nothing less.
Notung - sounds like you should tweak and resubmit at a future caseswap as you might have a winner on your hands.
Fents - tough break. thank for demomstrating to us the need to clean our taps. That's the real reason you did it wasnt it  just to help us.

a note to tasters. mine (#6) is filled straight from the keg to the bottle so carb levels wont be as high as they should. hence the drink now. otherwise it can last ages. its been happily lagering in the keg for about 3 months now.

I expect to see a lot of tasting posts with the weekend upon us.


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## Kleiny (27/11/09)

wonderwoman said:


> I tried this last night and my bottle was infected too  . That's really unfortunate timing. If you have some from another batch I'd be happy to try it though



The same.

This is the only swap i have opened so far and i do have notes on it i just have not had the time to post them yet.

Just had Acetlealdehyde all through on the aroma and flavour. 

I will post the notes soon 

Kleiny


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## Brewmeister70 (27/11/09)

*#10 Manticle's Robust Porter* (Tried this last night and not working today  )

Clear translucent light brown. Medium light tan head. Possibly a bit pale?

Medium intensity roast malt on the nose, low -level earthy hops and minimal yeast character (some banana ester as it warms). Quite clean and inviting.

Very good balance of malt to hop bitterness with both still there at the finish. This seemingly low-gravity version of the style finishes dry with a light to medium body. The subtle banana flavour from the yeast reminds me of Coopers yeast. This seems to be a subtle and very well-balanced version of robust porter with just enough roast malt to lend a dry chocolate character without getting into coffee-type roasted malt flavours. Crystal malt character is also well-judged lending a supporting malt sweetness through the middle without sacrificing a dry finish.

This is a highly drinkable session-style porter that has won me over with its balance and uncomplicated expression of the ingredients. My guess is that this won't be the last time you make this beer, Manticle.

Cheers :super:


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## Hutch (27/11/09)

...various computers at home are out of action, so I'll be posting delayed tasing notes from memory...

*24. Wonderwoman - summer ale*

LOVED the lable WW!!! Gave me a laugh...

Pale gold, good carb, very good head retention, a little hazy, though it has only been 3 weeks in the bottle.
The nose was, as expected, pungent - great hop combination, really works well in a summer ale. You dry-hopped this with Galaxy /NS right? Not grassy or over the top, as I would have expected for 30gm of these varieties.
No evident fermentation flaws - very clean, no fusels or acetaldehyde (I'm quite impressed, because I always get green apples with US-05).
The flavour is again dominated by fruity hops, minimal grain flavour, dry and crisp.
Mouth feel was towards dry, though I detect a slight lingering sweet'n'sour from the extract that detracts somewhat from the clean ferment.

For an extract beer this is a credit to you WW. 
Perhaps the only suggestion I would make is to balance the prominent hopping with some more malt character and sweetness, subbing in a fair whack of Munich 1, and perhaps a touch of Cara. High %aa varieties like Galaxy and NS can lend a certain astringency, which can seem out of balance with little malt and a dry finish. Otherwise, I think you're on a real winner there...
...and not a touch of Golden Syrup!!!

:icon_cheers: 
Hutch.


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## manticle (27/11/09)

Brewmeister70 said:


> *#10 Manticle's Robust Porter* (Tried this last night and not working today  )
> 
> Clear translucent light brown. Medium light tan head. Possibly a bit pale?
> 
> ...



Very glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the feedback. My initial impression when it was fermenting was that it was paler than I'd aimed for, despite caramelising a portion of first runnings (basically to a thick dark toffee) and adding some steeped, boiled spec malt liquor a day or so into ferment. I didn't want it to be black like a stout nor brown like a brown ale but that balance may have been missed.

I'll certainly be having another crack at this and I'll be tweaking based on comments received like these.

Interesting about the perceived gravity - my initial recipe calculates around 6.1% (og 1063,). I think my actual gravity was slightly less (maybe 1057) due to getting a higher volume but it also finished a few points lower than expected so I would hazard between 5 and 6% abv.


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## Wonderwoman (27/11/09)

Hutch said:


> *24. Wonderwoman - summer ale*
> 
> LOVED the lable WW!!! Gave me a laugh...



thanks for the comments and advice hutch. 

as for the label - when I read that description of Mother Bunch - I knew it had to be my brewery name! :lol:

edit: "You dry-hopped this with Galaxy /NS right?" yes


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## brettprevans (27/11/09)

well guys and gals ive had some feedback on my contribution and it looks like we might have an interesting situation. 
I had 2 kegs of my beer. started drinking from keg #1 and it was great. but it meant that i ran out before i could finish bottling. so i hooked up keg #2 and finished bottling.

now the feedback ive had is that there was something wrong with my beer. so it may be that the #2 keg had an infection. so those who got bottles from #1 keg will hopefully get good beer. sorry to those who get #2 keg bottles (if thats the case). I suppose it could have been a bottle issue rather than a keg issue. i gues we will see.

good news is that less than half (maybe even only 1/4) of the swap bottles came from #2keg. I will go home tonight and investigate what #2 keg tastes like from the tap as I havent tried it yet.


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## manticle (27/11/09)

I got a good one.

Seems to be a few infections already. What's happening there brewers?


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## Maple (27/11/09)

I see you're having a bit of difficulty keeping away from the beer, perhaps I can store those kegs for you....just trying to help mate...


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## brettprevans (27/11/09)

Maple said:


> I see you're having a bit of difficulty keeping away from the beer, perhaps I can store those kegs for you....just trying to help mate...


I havent had a drink in a couple of weeks (ok bar the case swap). i'll only go home and have a 60ml test sample. besides you've got my keg of golden rye at your place 

hook in


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## Supra-Jim (27/11/09)

Fingers are crossed CM2, I've got your offering lined up for tonights fish n chips feed!!

Cheers SJ


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## brettprevans (27/11/09)

im fkn spewing about i cause i checked the beer to make sure i didnt contribute a bad batch. guess i should have checked the 2nd keg also. 

Since CM2brewery is closed for renovations (well the brewer is anyway), Im going to go postal on the setup, kegs, fermentors, reminaing bottles and make sure anything living thing that shouldnt be there dies!

Fingers crosseed SJ.

Anyone who gets a dodgy bottle, let me know and I'll hook you up with a bottle of something else.


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## Maple (27/11/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> im fkn spewing about i cause i checked the beer to make sure i didnt contribute a bad batch. guess i should have checked the 2nd keg also.
> 
> Since CM2brewery is closed for renovations (well the brewer is anyway), Im going to go postal on the setup, kegs, fermentors, reminaing bottles and make sure anything living thing that shouldnt be there dies!
> 
> ...


I got three dodgy ones... and a keg too, can I get replacements please...


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## Leigh (27/11/09)

I should pull my finger out and actually put some of these in the fridge for consumption...but with a keg of my Aussie Lager and another of Rook's Alt in the fridge, it is hard to go for something different...


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## Brewmeister70 (27/11/09)

> Interesting about the perceived gravity - my initial recipe calculates around 6.1% (og 1063,). I think my actual gravity was slightly less (maybe 1057) due to getting a higher volume but it also finished a few points lower than expected so I would hazard between 5 and 6% abv.



It didn't come across that strong though it was the second beer of the night... You're recipe when I went back to suss it out after trying it said 1.047, I think, which would be consistent with the lighter body/less alc.

The hops are the big surprise to me: I didn't pick them up and they aren't a subtle (or earthy) hop.

Either way, you made a damn fine beer. Well-done.


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## Supra-Jim (27/11/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> Anyone who gets a dodgy bottle, let me know and I'll hook you up with a bottle of something else.



Where it's dodgy or not, I'm gonna say it was infected and come looking for that 60L of Pliny you mentioned in the IPA thread :icon_drool2: 

Cheers SJ


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## manticle (27/11/09)

Brewmeister70 said:


> It didn't come across that strong though it was the second beer of the night... You're recipe when I went back to suss it out after trying it said 1.047, I think, which would be consistent with the lighter body/less alc.




Sure you weren't skim reading one of my other proposed beers (originally intended a SMASH pilsner that probably would have been around that OG). The robust porter in the recipe thread says 1063 (this page: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...36966&st=60)?

Anyway the main thing is that it's been enjoyed.


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## Brewmeister70 (27/11/09)

Don't know what I was reading now but feel better that you actually DID use earthy hops and not Amarillo or I would call it quits on reviewing anything else. Thanks for the link.


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## manticle (27/11/09)

One of my other proposed swaps was an all amarillo american brown which is posted earlier in the recipe thread. Sorry for the confusion.


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## brettprevans (27/11/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> Where it's dodgy or not, I'm gonna say it was infected and come looking for that 60L of Pliny you mentioned in the IPA thread :icon_drool2:
> 
> Cheers SJ


there seems to be a bit of interest in the pliney.....um um um, its infected also, so you dont really want to taste it 



Maple said:


> I got three dodgy ones... and a keg too, can I get replacements please...


yup. you can have replacements bottles consisting of summer ale + W3711 *& wild yeast,* Vienna + 34/70* & wild yeast*. and some light beer. sound good?


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## Supra-Jim (27/11/09)

I'll take my chances!!

Cheers SJ


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## manticle (27/11/09)

#8 Chris Taylor: Pale Yarra

Lovely golden, almost amber colour.

Pours with fluffy white head. Head stays. Not cloudy.

Fruity aroma

First sip is loads of hop flavour. The beer has a sweetness which seems balanced by a slight dryness. Carbonation seems to add sherbert mouthfeel. Nice medium body and a hint of what tastes like warm alcohol. I mean a very subtle hint and it's something I enjoy in flavoursome beers - it makes me feel like I'm having a drink.

Subtle underlying bitterness works with the sherbert fizz, fruit and malt sweetness.

Subsequent sips seem to reveal a maltiness that balances nicely with the fruitiness of the hops. I can't distinguish which hop/s are used but it's really nicely balanced and I think that's a good thing. That said it may just be my inexperience. First sip suggested a touch of Chinook but subsequent sips tell me no. Other fruity hints I get are grapefruit so maybe cascade? I'm probably way off the mark - since it's aussie you've probably used galaxy or something else I hardly know. I won't embarrass myself by guessing further although I'd laugh if it were PoR since so many people give it such a hard time and this would stop them dead in their tracks.

I'm still learning what does what and how to describe what Im tasting but this beer is bursting with flavour. I'll be keen to see your recipe for this (and your 'caned by comp' tripel too if that's ok). Super tasty and refreshing and wouldn't be out of place in any micro's repertoire. Essentially a professional effort.

Just realised you provided a link to the recipe in the wiki which I read after taking the notes above.

So you did use a version of PoR? Top work


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## manticle (27/11/09)

#15 Don Mateo hefeweizen

Very fluffy head quickly dissipates to very thin foam.

Pale golden colour, cloudy.

Aroma of wheat malt. No hop aroma. Not overly banana or clove in aroma but hints of banana present.

High carbonation which Im not usually a fan of but I know suits the style.

Taste is mainly banana but not overly strong. Slight malty sweetness on the finish which lingers. Mouthfeel is spritzy.

As far as the style goes it seems pretty spot on. Definitely a hefe and on the banana side without going overboard. Carbonation makes me burp a couple of times. Myself I like a clovey dryness which I find refreshing but there is absolutely no fault to this beer that I can detect. A good hefe for sure.

I get a touch of breadiness in the aftertaste so the malt is nicely balanced with the fruit.

Was your mash schedule single infusion or did it involve step mashing or decoction mashing?


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## Fourstar (27/11/09)

manticle said:


> #15 Don Mateo hefeweizen



Interesting, he did one for the mid year swap too! i'll pop his in the fridge now and judge it. see what it was like compared to the mid year swap notes as listed below. should be interesting.




Fourstar said:


> *24. Don Mateo - "Way out Weizen" - Hefeweizen*
> 
> Dark gold to orange in appearance, served mine 'mit hefe'. deep haze from some of the trub/bottle yeast. Big head which dissipated to a thin lacy creaminess. Heaps of Clove phenols with some slight fruity banana esters coming through. Slightly doughy presence as well. Low carbonation and a full mouth feel, quite thick/heavy (probably due to the low carbonation.) Mines almost flat. It poured great!
> 
> ...


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## Maple (28/11/09)

#15 hefeweizen scored against CAT 15a
Aroma: Slight clove and a touch of banana in the initial smell, however this is not the only phenolics picked up. There may be a hint of something else in the background just giving a subtle masking to a clean clove/banana aroma. Hops, none detected, some slight sweetness coming from the malt, but low and to style. 8/12

Appearance: Very hazy to cloudy - OK for this style. beautiful golden colour. white fluffy head that subsides to low and thin as the glass is drained. 2/3

Flavour: Sweet breadiness from the malt, no hops detected as standing up front. Balance is definitely towards the malt, perhaps just a touch to far. The Banana and Clove are very prominent, and whatever was detected in the aroma has not transpired to the taste. Clean and very full flavour. 17/20

mouthfeel: Carbonation is a low medium to medium - ok, but would like a bit more in this. Super creaminess in the feel of this which is great, but does not have the dry finish I would expect in this style. 3.5/5

Overall impression: A touch more bittering to balance out the residual sweetness imparted by the malt would help to make this a great example. The phenolics detected in the aroma, that subdued the banana and clove were not a clean smell initially, but these disappeared quickly. If you can dry the finish of this out it would certainly add a few points, and bring the impression of this beer up to the next level. Assume its just a point of attention to attenuation on this. A really top beer that exemplifies this style very well, thoroughly enjoyed this. Thanks.

Tally 38/50


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## notung (28/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> I recapped the lucky number 13 bottles. The let off a marginal 'hiss' nothing extravagant. I'd say notung you just had a single bottle overprimed/infected. Unless you bulk primed i dont see these being super carbonated anytime soon.
> 
> Dont be too concerned at this point, all 4 i had were not about to pop their top.
> 
> I'll be tasting one tonight for true carbonation. :icon_cheers:



Thanks 4*. Like you said, maybe a false alarm due to an infected/overprimed bottle. Perhaps there was a bulk priming error. I boil a glucose syrup with 250ml water, then add to the bottling vessel first. Brew is racked on top of priming syrup and is not stirred.

Thanks for the feedback - looking forward to more from others down the track. Honesty is good!

Haven't ducked into any swap beers yet, but will this weekend.


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## Maple (28/11/09)

#5 Viet Lager scored against CAT 2c

Aroma: Hops and Grain-malty sweetness hiddin in there too, the hops a v. nice floral/noble bouquet, no discernible sulphur or phenolics detected. v. clean no corn (on the understanding that this is not a true CAP, overlooked but not required anyway) 11/12 

Appearance: Almost clear, slight haze to it. Deep straw to light golden in colour, small reducing head, white. 2/3

Flavour: Full bouquet of the hops perfectly transitioned to the taste, hop bitterness very accentuated without being over the top. Balance towards the hops but not overtly. Malt coming through as a light grainy sweetness, but propped up with a little something on the side. Dry Crisp finish. No Diacetyl or off flavours detected showing a very clean controlled fermentation regime on this 18/20

MouthFeel: Carbonation Medium with a bit of carbonic bite to it, perhaps from the water profile. More body than anticipated based on initial look smell. Very nice. 4/5

Overall: Excellent thirst quencher, nice and dry, with a great hop profile that carries right through. on the proviso that this is an Classic american Pils style with rice for corn sub -> nailed it. 8/10

Tally 43/50


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## manticle (28/11/09)

#17(a) Zebba: India Pale Ale:

Pours with a very fluffy head that stays thick, dense and creamy throughout.

Cloudy almost murky, light brown almost orange.

Aroma is fruity, fruity hops. Quite intense.

Flavour is similar - fruity hops balanced out by a good but not over the top bitter finish which lingers.

I don't get much malt - just sweet and bitter fruit.

I haven't tried many commercial examples of india pale - the only one is probably JS. This is far more flavoursome and hoppy. The JS bitterness comes through more because there's less competing with it but there's enough bitterness here to give a nice clean sensation on the palate despite the large amounts of fruit.

The murkiness is odd - maybe some chill haze but such cosmetic things bother me not one whit. Tasty beer.


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## notung (28/11/09)

Allright I'll have a go at this...

*8. Chris Taylor - Pale Yarra*

Appearance: Bright amber with some cloudiness. Poured with a creamy head which remained and laced the glass.
Aroma: Spicy/fruity hop-driven aroma with hints of banana.
Mouthfeel: Really pleasant balance. Carbonation seems perfect and imparts a longer lasting 'feeling' at the top of the palate (if that makes sense). Reminds me of a Scottish heavy that I once brewed.
Flavour: As manticle mentioned, the first thing I taste is the bitterness of the hops which dissipates slowly to reveal a faint sweetness that I enjoy having to look for. I get a subtle grapefruit flavour, especially 'on the burp'.

Overall: I am really enjoying this beer. I like the grapefruit bitterness left across the tongue and at the top-front of the palate as I take a sip. It has a creaminess while still being rather dry. My partner tried it and agreed it was a really smooth, well balanced drop. Thank you very much!


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## manticle (28/11/09)

#17(b)- Supra Jim: American pale ale

Similar to the above beer - pours with a white creamy head that stays dense. Similar colour and haze too. A little more on the golden side rather than orange/brown.

Aroma is not as intense but still hops on the nose.

Flavour is quite intense though. All hops and having both made beer with it and reading the label I know there's chinook in there. Less familiar with cascade (used it for bittering in one or two partials a while back) but I can taste grapefruit so I'll attribute it to that. The piney, resinous aspect of the chinook combines nicely with the grapefruit. Despite being fruity this particular hop combination is not coming across as particularly sweet.

The bitterness is not massive but it's present and lingers in that way that quenches thirst yet makes you want a second sip. Quite highly carbonated which plays on the same part of my tongue as the hops. A tiny detection of that saltiness I found in CM2 and fourstars' beers. It's something to do with hop bitterness but may also be water additions designed to help pronounce that aspect of the beer. Still scratching my head to describe properly what it is and ascribe correctly what causes it.

Overall nicely balanced. Hoppy rather than malty which is what I would expect here.

I've not been exposed to a massive amount of hoppy beers and can find some commercial examples wanting (too much aroma but not enough flavour). The examples from this swap have changed that perception. I'm still predominatly a lover of maltiness but there's some great flavours going on in some of these hoppier styles.


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## WarmBeer (28/11/09)

*5 - Fourstar - Reunification Express*

Beautiful looking beer, perfectly white head, about 1/2 a cm, which stayed the whole glass.

I'm not a fan of bland, asian lagers, but this one smells like a good one. Nice, subtle hop smell, with a hint of maltiness.

First taste is clean with an up-front sweetness, that is quickly balanced by the bitterness coming through. There is a hint of "tart-ness" coming through, too. Not sure if this is from the rice, or from the water additions.

Again, will re-iterate, I am not a fan of asian lagers, but I would actively seek this beer out to match with food, or a warm, cloudless afternoon with mates.

Damn, Fourstar, you know your stuff


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## Fourstar (28/11/09)

WarmBeer said:


> *5 - Fourstar - Reunification Express*
> I'm not a fan of *bland*, asian lagers, but this one smells like a good one. Nice, subtle hop smell, with a hint of maltiness.
> Again, will re-iterate, I am not a fan of asian lagers, but I would actively seek this beer out to match with food, or a warm, cloudless afternoon with mates.
> 
> Damn, Fourstar, you know your stuff



Interesting to note, your inital statement was 'bland asian lagers' which turned to 'asian lagers'. Nooiiiice 

I must admit, its not exaclty what you get with a 'bia hoi'. Its slightly over hopped and ABV is too high but if you consider it to be a premium Viet Lager e.g. Bia Saigon, i think you will find it to be up there in its class. Maybe slightly too sweet. But compeditive.

Glad you liked it, or atleast more than my last swap beer.  

Ive got some leftover broken rice floating around and i might do another soon, this time as a low ABV ale to quaff on the hot summer days ahead..


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## Fourstar (28/11/09)

Notes from lastnight:

*15. Don Mateo - Hefeweizen *

Light banana & clove pheols present. A mellow wheat aroma, quite subtle, sweet grain & non obtrusive malt aromas. Well balanced with yeast profile.
*Score: 7/12*

Deep haze, gold in appearance, poor head retention, Even when forced on. Fine lacy foam.
*Score: 2/3*

Balanced Esters and phelos on the palate, clovey banana flavours and some mild cakey vanilla falvours present. Prominant wheaty doughy palate with a sweet malt supporting characteristic. balanced well with a light lingering bitterness. Finishes bready and phenolic with a dry palate.
*Score: 16/20*

Moderate-high carbonation, drying and a moderate to lgith mouthfeel.
*Score: 4/5*

A rather well balanced weizen. Head retention is poor and focus could be made on improving this as well as slightly bumping the carbonation. You could avoid protein rests and possibly use carapils for dextrins to aid in head retention. A higher mash temp may help with this too. A well crafted beer.
*Score: 7/10*

*Overall Score: 36/50*


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## seemax (28/11/09)

And I thought I was the only one drinking swap beer, sitting on the couch, taking mental notes, checking AHB....repeat.... :icon_drunk: 

Just finished WW's summer ale... very tasty indeed , super fruity hops!!


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## WarmBeer (29/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> Interesting to note, your inital statement was 'bland asian lagers' which turned to 'asian lagers'. Nooiiiice


That's cause there was nothing "bland" about your beer. It was great! 

Bland beer sometimes has its place, i.e. when it's 35 degrees with an 85% humidity, and you're eating fresh seafood in a seaside Thai town.



Fourstar said:


> Glad you liked it, or atleast more than my last swap beer.


Yeah, I think I was the only one in the swap to rant about it. Could still appreciate it as a well made beer, though. Must have been something in it didn't agree with me, or it exceeded my personal Lupulin threshold :lol: 

BTW, the TTLL is now in the fermenter with a litre starter of 1968. OG was 1054. Will report on it in a couple of weeks.


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## Kleiny (29/11/09)

3. Seemax Kiwi pale ale

Aroma: Lactic style acidic smell with an almost cidery like aroma. The cider aroma is acetaldehyde. Green apple like with not much else making its way through, maybe a slight hop background 4/12

Appearance: Low head but lasts a while, hazy light brown color. 1/3

Flavour: major flaw right off is the acetaldehyde which works to mask all other flavour, green apple type flaour, Tart or acidic like. There is however some malt background and i can get some hop flavour. 5/20

Mouthfeel: Light with some astringency and almost puckering with the tartness 3/5

Overall: obvious large flaws due to the acetaldehyde, may be contributed from secondary fermentation or oxidation at some point during racking for bottling or secondary vessel. it can turn to acetobacter and this seems to be the way it is heading. Area for improvement, watch everything to do with fermentation, clean clean clean and if you dont currently have control of temp it might be an area to look at. However in saying that it does seem like there is some nice maltyness and great hop flavor which with out the flaw may be a good beer. keep brewing. 2/10

15/50
Problematic with major off flavours and aromas which dominate.

Kleiny


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## Fourstar (29/11/09)

WarmBeer said:


> Yeah, I think I was the only one in the swap to rant about it. Could still appreciate it as a well made beer, though. Must have been something in it didn't agree with me, or it exceeded my personal Lupulin threshold :lol:
> BTW, the TTLL is now in the fermenter with a litre starter of 1968. OG was 1054. Will report on it in a couple of weeks.



Yeah i pitched the TTL this monring and crapped myself thinking i had picthed a infected starter of 1272! Only to realise that fruit tingle flavour i was gtting from the yeast was actually from the fresh wort i tasted when taking my gravity reading! 

Phew! Yeah OG reading i had was 1.056 from the refrac which is corrected to 1.055, hydro said 1.054. i'll take the 1.055 as i use the refrac for all of my readings anyway. I find i get some confusion with the hyrdo at times. atleast if i do both i know its 'controlled'.

looks like my pot to pot thinning out worked! :beerbang:


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## manticle (29/11/09)

You guys are slow. I racked mine off for secondary ferment yesterday. Looking forward to it.


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## manticle (29/11/09)

#19 Fents: Cream Ale

Hard to describe much I guess and Fents already knows the issues. However the sourness that's in here is actually at a reasonable level. This could be turned into an interesting sour beer. I think it's a bit light on at the moment for that - you'd want to add some fruit or beef it up somehow but it's actually balanced and refreshing enough not to just tip straight out.

Interested to try an uninfected version though.

Only other point is next time fill the bottle up ya cheapskate.


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## zebba (29/11/09)

*3. Seemax - Kiwi Pale Ale
*
Sorry mate, mines gone also. I got some blisteringly hot alcohol flavours. 

*5. Fourstar - Reunification Express, Viet Rice Lager*

When I started home brewing, I had dreams of one day making a beer like this. Of course, since then, my tastes have changed dramatically - I've gone from drinking nothing but lagers to looking at a menu of lagers in a restaurant and ordering a coke. This though, as others have said, is a prime example. Lovely drop, and I could easily see myself sitting in the back patio with a few mates downing a keg of this over an afternoon.

Only thing to add other then what others have already said is that I got a bit of honey flavour. I'm enjoying it, I'm just not sure what it is that has contributed to that - and I'd like to know, cause I think it adds nicely to the beer. Is it the rice? Malt?

4 (and half) stars... boom boom.


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## manticle (29/11/09)

Thank Christ. I thought I was the only one actually drinking any of these.

#21 Hutch: Nelson Sauvin pseudo lager

Pours with a white head that dissipates very quickly. High carbonation (spritzy).

Golden/amber colour, hazy (I've read somewhere that large amounts of hops can make things hazy)

Massive hop aroma.

Flavour is all hops. Very fruity. To me it tastes like Chinook with a hint of amarillo but the name of the beer obviously suggests the main character is Nelson which is not a hop I'm familiar with.

Masses of fruit with this, quite sweet too but not in an unpleasant way. The higher carbonation probably works in its favour because it prevents the sweetness from becoming too much. My only criticism would be perhaps a touch more bitterness might balance out all that fruitiness. I can detect some bitterness on the palate but there's a fruit salad going on in my mouth and it needs a slightly bigger playmate.

Very tasty though.


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## Leigh (29/11/09)

#10 Manticle's Robust Porter

It's a boy! Mine gushed when opened, sat it down for a good 3-4 minutes before it slowed (I did open at room temp ~ 12C)

Apart from that, lovely roasty aromas, something earthy there too?, light tan colour, head dissipated a little too quickly.

Past the lips, had a good balance of malt and hop bitterness with a nice dry finish.

A really nice porter Manticle. Could drink this one all night, but unfortunately only had one bottle!


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## manticle (29/11/09)

Probably best to chill first and then allow to warm to 8-10 deg C. Current weather has given me a couple of boys as I've been so used to just grabbing bottles from the shed at spot on temps over winter and the first bit of spring. That time has passed.

Earthyness may either be the fuggles hops or the caramelised first runnings (deep thick toffee syrup).

Glad you liked it.


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## Fourstar (29/11/09)

Zebba said:


> *5. Fourstar - Reunification Express, Viet Rice Lager*
> Only thing to add other then what others have already said is that I got a bit of honey flavour. I'm enjoying it, I'm just not sure what it is that has contributed to that - and I'd like to know, cause I think it adds nicely to the beer. Is it the rice? Malt?



Just a guess as JW Pils it malty sweet by nature. That with carapils (which does have a very very mild sweet note) would probabaly give it that honey sweetness.

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


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## notung (29/11/09)

#1 - Kleiny - Unhappily Everafter Munich Helles.
Ok, I read the style guidelines before drinking so I'm sort of going off that.

*Appearance:* A clean pale-coloured liquid like deep straw, with a modest head that lasted a while but had gone 3/4 through the beer. You've already talked about the light carbonation, I know.
*Aroma:* I got malt aromas plus something which I interpreted as yeastiness but may be something else.
*Flavour:* Basically as it says in the BJCP guidelines: malt flavours (but very little sweetness) dominating, with an underlying spicy interesting-ness coming from the hops. I'm not sure which variety you used, but it tasted clean and a little bit spicy. I'm guessing it's a noble hop like tettnang.
*Overall:* I suppose I'm not normally a fan of lagers, but this swap is bringing me around. I enjoyed the subtle malt flavours in this brew and the refreshing smooth drinkability of it in general. Why is it called that anyway Kleiny? Are you refering to the feeling when the glass is empty. If so, I understand. Thanks for swapping this.


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## WarmBeer (29/11/09)

notung said:


> Why is it called that anyway Kleiny? Are you refering to the feeling when the glass is empty. If so, I understand.


Yeah, Kleiny, what's with the name and the Goth chick on the bottle? You're too old, and have too little hair to be an emo


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## Kleiny (29/11/09)

notung said:


> Why is it called that anyway Kleiny? Are you refering to the feeling when the glass is empty. If so, I understand. Thanks for swapping this.






WarmBeer said:


> Yeah, Kleiny, what's with the name and the Goth chick on the bottle? You're too old, and have too little hair to be an emo



Goes and puts on black wig and clothes and thinks of killing himself or just hiding in a dark corner of the house with a pasty white complexion. :lol: 

The chick i just found on the net last minute and she looked ok so that was my label, as for the name i thought is was appropriate because i am yet to be fully satisfied with my brewing attempts at this style. Munich helles version 5 to be brewed in time for vicbrew 2010.

Kleiny


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## Supra-Jim (30/11/09)

Glad you like the beer Manticle, I'm actually yet to taste this (except for the odd hydrometer sample!) Good to hear it is carbed up already, thought it might have taken a little longer.

Anyway, my tasting efforts were not too successful this weekend:

CM2 - Aussie Gold Lager

Really nice appearance with a deep golden colour, tending towards copper. Low carbonation, with a little head that dissipated quickly. Taste was great with really nice mouthfeel. Nice sublte bitterness that hangs around on the tonuge. Only issue was the last mouthful, I got distracted and it wearmed up a bit, and i got a big green apple flavour.

Other than that nice beer CM.

Seemax - Kiwi Pale Ale

Sorry mate, mine was vingear.


Cheers SJ


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## Kleiny (30/11/09)

#5 Viet Lager 4*

I judeged it just under the light lager section as a general 4*

Aroma: Sweet malt aroma with some background sulphury notes from the lager, Some light fruitness but very light, very clean on the aroma's
9/12

Appearance: Slight haze but golden in color, i thought chill haze but even when a little warmer, Tight white head which dissipates fast into a thin lace which lasts a long time on the edge of the glass.
2/3

Flavour: Sweet malt up front with a dry bitternes finish, slightly astringent but probably still a plus does not seem to detract from the flavour, Balance is a little on the bitter side but still good, you dont need to change the balance, some spiceyness and floral from hops. I did detact a little tartness just at the end.
14/20

Mouthfeel: Light body with an overall coating, the carb is med to high and just right for the lager style, slightly astringent at the finish.
4/5

Overall: A great beer with a session feel, the light body and easy flavour make it drinkable, their are some fruity esters and a good balance, its a little hazy which could be cleared up with a nice color.
7/10

36/50
Very good with only very minor flaws,

This is a great beer 4* just couldnt fit it into the American way of thinking that they make the only light lagers in the world other than germany. But just recently visiting Phucket it brings back memmory's of Tiger and Singha(without the spiceyness)

Kleiny


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## Kleiny (30/11/09)

might get a couple of swap beers judged today, just finished night shift at the fire house and time for a few beers, kids are asleep, wifes asleep :super:


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## Fourstar (30/11/09)

Kleiny said:


> This is a great beer 4* just couldnt fit it into the American way of thinking that they make the only light lagers in the world other than germany. But just recently visiting Phucket it brings back memmory's of Tiger and Singha(without the spiceyness)



Yeah i agree, Maple was aksing me what Cat to judge it in, its quite hard as Asian Lagers are not comparable to the US varietys with their nose characteristics. If anything the aussie macro lagers are more suited to those guidelines in the light lager cat.

Thanks for the comments. If only i could do away with that haze  listening to the brewstrong podcast on it now. <_<


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## Kleiny (30/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> Yeah i agree, Maple was aksing me what Cat to judge it in, its quite hard as Asian Lagers are not comparable to the US varietys with their nose characteristics. If anything the aussie macro lagers are more suited to those guidelines in the light lager cat.
> 
> Thanks for the comments. If only i could do away with that haze  listening to the brewstrong podcast on it now. <_<



yep Charlie Bamforth lays it down in that interview with the BN Crew


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## Kleiny (30/11/09)

#6 CM2 Aussie Lager

Once again no real style to judge against other than American lagers in the light lager category and i couldnt push an Aus lager into the amber lager category. Im gonna rant soon i can tell about the inadequacy of the BJCP styles and the styles around the world they miss therough pure American arrogance SSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH get on with the review.

Aroma: Sweet malty aroma with hints of darker malts or cara/crystal, or just caramalisation of wort, There is a slight hop background but fairly fairnt and hard to pick. Light fruity esters and light sulphur. On warming some acetaldhyde.
6/12

Appearance: Hazy with a amber color not really to style even for a Aus lager a bit dark. low head on pour and dissipates quickly to nothing.
1/2

Flavour: its biscuit caramel sweet maltyness, with a little bitterness upfront not really enough to balance. It is thin in the flavour. alot of this can not be attributed to an Aus lager. 
12/20

Mouthfeel: Thin consistency with flavor but medium body with a cloying coating of the pallet. Carb is low and could be higher. I found the body weird in that it was watery but cloying.
3/5

Overall: i would not consider this as an example of a Aus lager as it has aroma and flavor with cara/toffee, some acetaldhyde, very mod body with a real watery feel to the flavour. Some sulphury tones. it is malt forward and do with some balance work but maybe without the cara / toffee flavour the bitterness might be right.
6/10

28/50
Good but misses the mark on style and has flaws.

Next is Manticle #10 (it seems like im being a hard marker but that is the way i see them, i hope mants impresses for style)

Kleiny


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## Fourstar (30/11/09)

Kleiny said:


> Next is Manticle #10 (it seems like im being a hard marker but that is the way i see them, i hope mants impresses for style)



Just checked, 7 point spread between yours and Maples for my result. 43 vs. 36.


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## brettprevans (30/11/09)

cheers Kleiny for the review. 28/50 aint too bad considering it was the 1st solo AG and 1st AB brew on my rig & with a dodgy temp gague that meant a 6step decoction. 

christ im wanting to try a few of these beers. its killing me.


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## Maple (30/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> Just checked, 7 point spread between yours and Maples for my result. 43 vs. 36.


Also judged against 2 different categories.... Send me another and I'll give 'er a go against light lager


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## Fourstar (30/11/09)

Maple said:


> Also judged against 2 different categories.... Send me another and I'll give 'er a go against light lager



Couldnt you just compare from your notes and give it a score? after all you write down what you can taste, not what you cant, they're just added extras to fill the blank pieces of paper+ get brownie points on the judging sheets! 

Unfortuantly i dont have any more.


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## Kleiny (30/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> Just checked, 7 point spread between yours and Maples for my result. 43 vs. 36.



In a discussion im sure i could be persuaded (with a good argument) a couple of points to close the gap


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## manticle (30/11/09)

#24: Wonderwoman: Summer Ale

First up I liked the label. I like the effort that went into it too.

Pours with a fluffy head that quickly dissipates but a thin head and lacing remain throughout the glass. Hazy,light gold colour.

Again hops on the nose. Lots of fruit and since the last case swap I had, I'm now more familiar with this hop.

Flavour is very hoppy/fruity - I get passionfruit and lemon and maybe a touch of grapefruit. There is a nice bitterness to this.

However I find the body a bit lacking and the carbonation a little high. I'd really like a nice sherbert tingle sensation to go with the lemon.
Not overly sweet, very little malt. I'm not a fan of loads of carb in anything (beer, soft drink, cider etc) so it may just be me but I reckon the beer could do with a touch more maltiness and slightly less fizz. Nonetheless the lightness and fruitiness together with that good bittering makes a refreshing summer ale which is what you've designed. Too much carb makes me burpy so drinking one after the other in the sun might not suit me but I'm sure it would suit many. Unlike most however I could happily drink several dubbels or stouts in a row whereas many like to chew only one beer in a session so I may not be the target drinking audience. Certainly no fermentation flaws that I can detect.


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## manticle (30/11/09)

#25: Beerdingo: APA

Golden colour, head dissipates to thin foam but a small amout of lacing remains.

Aroma is mildly hoppy but malt is apparent too.

The flavour is lovely. I have no idea how to style this is but this is very different to the other hoppy apas and ipas I've had so far. There's a real rich malt that reminds me of caramel and what caramelised wort sometimes brings to a beer. I don't know if that's stylistically accurate but I'm a fan. There's a bitter citrus (almost orange) bitterness that goes very well with the malt flavour.

This is not to take away from any of the other pales I've so far had but this and Chris' are probably my favourite of the hoppy pales I've tasted. There are hops present here but really nicely balanced with the malt. I'd happily brew this. Delicious beer BD.

One question to a few of you. Some of you have suggested you have not yet tasted your own beer. This surprises me a little. Do you do the same thing with comps (if you enter them that is)? The way I look at it, I like to know what I'm passing onto someone else so any infection problems, carb problem,s etc. get picked up. I know what my beer tastes like so I don't expect too many surprises when someone tastes it. Obviously there are more expert palates than mine that may pick up faults but I know it's carbed, I know it's not infected and I know it's representative of my brewing (for better or worse). It's the same when I cook - I taste as I go and I taste before I serve. How else do you know if it needs more salt? If I didn't have this attitude you'd all be drinking my cloudy, possibly infected and definitely not right pilsner.

This was my swap cherry popper though so maybe I'm missing something. Definitely curious though.


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## Maple (30/11/09)

manticle said:


> One question to a few of you. Some of you have suggested you have not yet tasted your own beer. This surprises me a little. Do you do the same thing with comps (if you enter them that is)? The way I look at it, I like to know what I'm passing onto someone else so any infection problems, carb problem,s etc. get picked up. I know what my beer tastes like so I don't expect too many surprises when someone tastes it. Obviously there are more expert palates than mine that may pick up faults but I know it's carbed, I know it's not infected and I know it's representative of my brewing (for better or worse). It's the same when I cook - I taste as I go and I taste before I serve. How else do you know if it needs more salt? If I didn't have this attitude you'd all be drinking my cloudy, possibly infected and definitely not right pilsner.
> 
> This was my swap cherry popper though so maybe I'm missing something. Definitely curious though.


You're on the money with that Manticle. The swap was my 3rd in line for this swap, first didn't work out (but then it did, long story), second one I didn't get what I wanted out of it, and the third one was a tried and tested one, that I made sure I had at least half a keg before the day to know it was suitable.


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## Fourstar (30/11/09)

Maple said:


> You're on the money with that Manticle. The swap was my 3rd in line for this swap, first didn't work out (but then it did, long story),



What happened to brining along a bottle of that maple?


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## Brewmeister70 (30/11/09)

One of the difficulties of theses swaps in some respects is the output of some brewers is quite low over-all and if something isn't as expected, or turns south late, there is not really the opportunity to make another brew.

Part of the bad turns out to be a good chance for brewers who are less experienced to learn about how to make a better beer through tasting some examples that have issues. This is normal and a good thing IMO. 

Sure, it would be awesome if we could all produce a super drop for these swaps and I'm sure that everyone who participates does try their best but there is also the temptation for many of us to try making something out of left field that we hope to be wonderful but have zero previous experience in producing. 

It's all part of the fun.


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## Kleiny (30/11/09)

Manticle

I could not agree more with your statement, not only should you know what you are giving somebody else to taste but you should now what you are entering in a comp. If its bad you still may enter it and hope for feed back on how to rectify a problem. Not just thats infected and cant be judged.

As a brewer we should be tasting the whole way through a brew from the grain to the mash to the wort to fermentation to the final product and during lager or maturation. Then and only then do you get respect for the flavours and were they are produced within the system. This is also important in picking where off flavours are attributed. This process also allows you to make changes on the spot in terms of carb or low/high gravity, attenuation etc.

Kleiny


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## manticle (30/11/09)

Brewmeister70 said:


> One of the difficulties of theses swaps in some respects is the output of some brewers is quite low over-all and if something isn't as expected, or turns south late, there is not really the opportunity to make another brew.
> 
> Part of the bad turns out to be a good chance for brewers who are less experienced to learn about how to make a better beer through tasting some examples that have issues. This is normal and a good thing IMO.
> 
> ...



Not so much about a perfect or even super drop - god knows if any of mine have turned out super. It's more about knowing what you are putting in by tasting it yourself beforehand.

It's not really a massive criticism - anyone who enters a swap puts themselves and their brewing on the line for all to see and good on them for having a crack. I just personally couldn't contribute something blind (and to be honest one of the best beers I've tasted so far was made by someone who claims not to have tried the finished product). I realise people are limited by time etc (not least of all me). I'm just trying to understand a different mode of thinking.


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## Maple (30/11/09)

# 10 - Robust Porter Judged against Cat 12B

Aroma: Chocolate, Toffee, Caramel initially - 10 minute interlude (putting the little one to bed as it warms) Rich Toastiness and even a slight hint of coffee in the nose. Amazing how this one gives up all these notes as it warms, very complex aroma. No hops detected in aroma, no phenolics detected either. 10/12

Appearance: Clear deep brown with Crimson tinge in the light. Tight compact head, tan colour, receeding - low retension 2/3

Flavour: Raosty with tannins coming into it. I get the Chocolate/Caramel coming through from the aroma into the taste as well. Nicely balanced - no cloying sweetness to speak of, very well attenuated. Earthy hop profile faint in the taste, but in teh background, and lends the right level of bitterness to this style. No off-flavours detected 16/20

Mouthfeel: Slightly astringent - can be picked up from dark roasted malts and accentuated from high temp sparging. some OK, but something to key in on. This was thinner in body than the aroma had lead me to believe, but still a medium level body. Dryness a nice finish with a low to moderate carb level. 3/5

Overall: some astringency picked up - watch your sparge temps, or perhaps try cold steeping black malt for similar desired effect. This was accentuated by the dryness in the finish, however it was backed-up with a good maltiness. use of hops contributes to the overall good balance of this example, well done. 7/10

Tally 38/50


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## manticle (30/11/09)

Cheers.

Agree on the body - it needs a bit more. I think I oversparged this one as I slightly miscalculated the water amounts. That may also account for the astringency rather than the temps?

Pity about the head (mentioned in another review of this too) as I think it's an integral part to any english style. The testers I had prior to the swap seemed ok head wise so I'm not sure what's happened but I tried one last night and got the same problem: nice fluff that fizzled away to nothing in no time.

Didn't pick up the tannins but I have a couple of bottles left so I know what to look for when I crack them.


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## Leigh (30/11/09)

#6 CM2 Aussie Lager

The bottle I got was flat, poured from about 6inches away to get some "froth" that quickly dissipated (sp?). Was more of an _amber_ than a _pale_ lager IMO. Slight malt on the nose, onto the tongue the beer was quite warm with strong bitterness and barely any maltiness. I like a little less bitterness in my lagers, with a little more malt. As the glass warmed, the warmness turned "solventy" which detracted from the beer.

Wasn't what I was expecting, would probably taste a lot better with a higher level of carbonation (I expect this to be right at the next swap Brett  )

Manticle, I just ran out of time, but the only taste I haven't had is carbonated/matured. Have tasted at bottling, yeast pitching etc so I know what it will be like. The beauty of plastic bottles is I _know_ the carbonation was right when I boxed them as all the bottles were nice and firm, but not overly hard.


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## brettprevans (1/12/09)

I agree that the swaps should be trying to showcase your best brews or maybe experiments/styles that others may not try themselves. Following that logic you should be testing your beer to make sure its good enough for the swap (ie at the top of your brewing capability, not compared to others brewing capability).

For example. I was testing my case swap to make sure it was ok. it tasted great out of the first keg. it doesnt seem to have made the transition well to bottle or from the 2nd keg. Now that's an issue for me to rectify but i at least know my beer was good enough to swap prior to bottling because i was testing it (PS im not kegging then bottling anymore as it doesnt keep the carbonation levels, you can all put up with sediment in your bottles from now on).

that being said im thinking im having another crack at this for next summer's swap and change the hop schedule as it seems to be throwing people and its certainly not to a bjcp style. but then again i was definitely not brewing to style. i was trying to push the boundaries with rice, nugget and POR flavouring/aroma.


edit: on a completely differant but slightly related topic. whilst cleaning out the chesty i tried my blended munich/english ale/RIS last night that i was going to bring to the swap (just 30ml worth). bloody nice. indeed not a session beer, but nice. might bring a couple bottles to next fornight's bjcp stout session.


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## brendo (1/12/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> edit: on a completely differant but slightly related topic. whilst cleaning out the chesty i tried my blended munich/english ale/RIS last night that i was going to bring to the swap (just 30ml worth). bloody nice. indeed not a session beer, but nice. might bring a couple bottles to next fornight's bjcp stout session.



BJCP is tonight mate... 1/12 - Stouts and Porters... bring it on...


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## Fourstar (1/12/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> *might bring a couple bottles to next fornight's bjcp stout session.*



You mean tonights!


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## brettprevans (1/12/09)

hmm i thought tonight was a differant style. maybe i was looking at last fortnights. ok will bring tonight. blended beer arnt exactly within bcjp though. figured it would have to be entered into a comp under specialty beer.

edit: actually i was thinking of adding a smidge of black pepper or grains of paradise to it for some extra kick.


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## Fourstar (1/12/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> hmm i thought tonight was a differant style. maybe i was looking at last fortnights. ok will bring tonight. blended beer arnt exactly within bcjp though. figured it would have to be entered into a comp under specialty beer.



You dont have to tell them  If the glove fits, drop it in the style thats appropriate, it doesnt necessarily have to be a specialty. I'd probably place it in the strong stout category going from what you have blended as a guess.


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## beerDingo (1/12/09)

RE: Not tasting my own beers.

I brewed 60-70 litres, so I have actually drank 2 kegs of this already. Out of the keg, I liked it, and it was not infected. However, I have not yet tried the bottled version. These have been carbed up with the carbonation lollies, and will therefore taste different from my kegged version. 

So, it's just that I have not yet tried the bottle version that I have handed out. I do have some at home and was planning on trying them before the swap to check carbonation levels, but haven't gotten around to it. 

Ah, actually, I just realised that this was in a 23 litre fermenter, whereas what I've drank was all in a 60 litre fermentor, so there is that slight difference too. However, they sat next to each other, and copped the same temps.

Also, i did taste after brewing, and then after fermentation, before bottling. Just have not yet tried the carbed up version (out of this fermentor).

I've been a little sick the last week, but will endevour to try one tonight, just to see EXACTLY what I've given out to people! And looking forward to getting my swap off 4* at some point...

Oh, and, Manticle, I'm glad you liked it!!!


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## Fourstar (1/12/09)

beerDingo said:


> And looking forward to getting my swap off 4* at some point...



I'll be home tomorrow night if you want to get yours, fents and hairs swap beers?


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## Brewmeister70 (1/12/09)

I had your beer last night and agree with Manticle. It was a really nicely flavoured beer Beer Dingo. Well done!


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## beerDingo (1/12/09)

Thanks *Brewmeister70,* glad it's being enjoyed!

4* tomorrow might be OK, can you PM me your number, and I'll call ya around 5:30ish tomorrow to organize a time.


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## Kleiny (1/12/09)

brendo said:


> BJCP is tonight mate... 1/12 - Stouts and Porters... bring it on...



Non attendee tonight  

Ive got a night shift overtime so the money pushes me there, Im not happy it is stout night but as i really like the stouts and porters.

Kleiny


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## Fourstar (1/12/09)

Kleiny said:


> Non attendee tonight
> Ive got a night shift overtime so the money pushes me there, Im not happy it is stout night but as i really like the stouts and porters.
> Kleiny



Bummer compadre! I'd say i'll drink your share tonight but unfortuantly im driving.


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## manticle (1/12/09)

#2 Maple - Rye-IPA

Pours with a dense creamy head that thins but remains and laces the glass.

Colour is golden amber. Hazy.

Aroma is almost orange and nuts.

Carbonation level is spot on for me. Sherberty rather than fizzy or gassy with a tingle on the tongue at the finish.

Flavour is wow. I really like this beer. I think the bitterness, hop fruitiness and malt are really nicely balanced and there's a real difference to this beer. I'm guessing it's the rye.

It reminds me a lot of the first all amarillo american brown that I did that hit the nail on the head with bitterness and hop flavour and an underlying nuttiness from the malts. This is a better beer but I've been struggling to repeat the exact balance in subsequent brews (the first was due to an accident, a rebrew and a blend so it's hard to repeat or calculate the amounts).

Really nice this one. Mandarins, nuts, oranges and something else. Would be a great christmas beer. However I think there may be a problem with some of the others in the swap so everyone should send their bottles to me for inspection.


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## manticle (1/12/09)

#20: Gava: Golden ale

Good head, dissipates to thin but remains with lacing.

Golden colour, hazy.

Aroma: This will sound odd but it smells like beer - the kind of smell that you associate with beer when you're younger (but fresh tap beer not warmed up dregs after a night at your mate's house party).
A little bit of orange.

Flavour: Again I get a bit of orange. Not overly hopped (which is a nice change from the last few even though I've enjoyed them - just a nice difference). Not overly malty either although I get a bit in there. Carbonation is highish but still gives me that sherbert tingle I mentioned before (I mean highish for me not for all and sundry). Burps too.

Nothing over the top and pretty well balanced. There are ways I could suggest tweaking it but they would all be personal preference. I think you've probably hit the nail on the head as far as balancing everything up and making something sessionable that beer lovers of the swill variety AND beer lovers of the craft variety could sit down and enjoy together. Not an easy thing to do. Hope that makes sense.


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## brettprevans (1/12/09)

still at fkn work. wont be making bjcp


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## gava (1/12/09)

whats this bjcp?

manticle : cheers for the feedback.. I do like this beer.. I had one lastnight to see if it'll be suitable to drink... It was nice but not the best i've.. may havae been different in kegs..


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## Leigh (1/12/09)

The  *B*eer *J*udge *C*ertificate *P*rogram they are doing, and keep hijacking this thread so that we all know they are doing it


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## zebba (1/12/09)

*10. Manticle: Robust Porter*

I started out only 12 months ago not being a fan of ANY dark beers. It's the coffee flavour given off by some of the darker grains that didn't sit well with me. I know "Doesn't like coffee? Freak". Thems the breaks.

But, in the interests of broadening my horizons, I've been trying different porters, stouts and dark ales, to develop my pallette, knowing I'm missing out on stuff cause I'm a bit of a girls blouse. Over this time, I've come to enjoy a subtle background roast flavour. Still can't enjoy the in your face, espresso in a pint glass stouts though.

This beer has nailed it, for my tastes. There is a roast flavour, but it's background, and just adds to the beer, doesn't swamp it. But more then the taste, I loved the colour - crimson red coming out of the bottle, and an inky dark mahogony in the glass. It's almost a shame to have to drink it.

A lovely beer, and evidence that my efforts to develop a roasty grain pallette are worth the tears I went through to get to this stage. 

Also, the wife says that she really likes it. I force feed her a small amount of everything I try, and to date, she has said that about 4 beers - one of WarmBeers porters, Unibroue Trois Pistoles, Chimay White, and now this. High praise indeed, and she stressed that I pass on to you her positive thoughts also.

Edit: The last few mouthfuls I got a slightly vinous or port like flavour. Would that be a malt flavour, or a sign of mild oxidation? Either way, I like it. And what was the alc %, cause I've got that nice cruisy feeling right about now


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## Brewmeister70 (1/12/09)

*Chris Taylor's Pale Yarra*

Mid-amber, high carbonation, moussy off-white head with good retention and bright clarity.

Grassy/herbal hop nose of medium intensity. Has a rich toasty/biscuity malt coming through at about the same intensity as the hops, also some nice "British" style esters.

A rich malty beer with complexity generated through a large hit of flavour hops (marmalade, lemon rind and earthy) but not an overly-bitter finish or harsh as might be expected from the big hop flavour. The alcohol is the only real pointer that this beer is squarely in the ESB range.

I really enjoyed the more balanced approach to bitterness that this beer displays which lets the malt come out as a highlight simular to Beer Dingo's offering. 

Maybe not what you originally had in mind but a really nice outcome Chris! Cheers :beer: 


*#26 Kenlock's Bright Ale*

No head retention in my glass, low carbonation, very hazy and straw coloured.

Predominant attribute of the nose is honeyed apple with some faint peachy hops.

Taste is muted with doughy malt, low-medium bitterness and some low-level fruity hop flavour that seems to be the biggest flavour element. Some sulphury/yeasty flavours not really adding to the to the experience in a positive way - maybe watch time spent on primary yeast fermentation yeast cake to be under ten-days if applicable with this recipe/yeast? Possibly go the other way if appropriate as there are acetaldehyde issues as this warms: this tastes kind of "worty" and not fermented out properly which could potentially be remedied by pitching a larger starter and leaving it on the yeast until activity slows before racking to a secondary fermenter if you did this. Otherwise, the green apple flavour (acetaldehyde) doesn't get converted to less obvious green beer flavours in your final brew.

In short, I can't tell by tasting what it what this is supposed to be and find it high in fermentation by-products and low on identifying characteristics such as malt character, bitterness level, finish hopping and visual cues like colour, carbonation level and head retention. It has potential but needs work in in the processing to more clearly realise the beer flavours as intended Kenlock. Looking forward to trying your next swap effort. Cheers, 

Brewmeister70


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## manticle (1/12/09)

@Zebba:

OG was somewhere in the high 1050s. FG was close to 1010 - 1012. I guess around 6-6.5 percent?

Glad you enjoyed it. I'm hoping I've avoided oxidation. Not expert enough to pick the vinous quality so I'll leave that to one of those BJCP guys if they're happy to chime in. Hopefully it's malt and a bit of age. Glad your wife liked it too. My lady enjoyed the bottles we had (she's a fan of darker beers)

As an aside - I'm interested in the BJCP people's personal opinions outside of style as well. There's been a couple of beers in this swap that I've tried that maybe between categories (Chris Taylor's seemed like Australian, English and American pale ale all rolled into one) that were smashing beers so while style guidelines are interesting, especially from those training in it, I think you should give us more.

Sorry if I'm a demanding prick.


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## kenlock (1/12/09)

Thanks for the critic BM70. But I wouldn't be drinking this until at least the 11/12 (as stated)

Food for thought in regards to fermentation.

Will try myself before this date and let others know if it needs more time.

Cheers Ken


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## manticle (1/12/09)

Actually mate it says 11/10 in the wiki so you might want to change that. I was going to try mine tomorrow. I'll wait now.


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## kenlock (1/12/09)

manticle said:


> Actually mate it says 11/10 in the wiki so you might want to change that. I was going to try mine tomorrow. I'll wait now.



Cheers for that. My mistake. 

Being ready before I brewed it! Could be the way forward!?

I hope nobody else has been misled.

Cheers Ken


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## Brewmeister70 (1/12/09)

That makes sense from what I was tasting. Sorry Kenlock - I was expecting a reasonably mature beer from the wiki and yours at the moment so isn't. At least it's headed off at the pass. Thanks for that Manticle.


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## kenlock (1/12/09)

Brewmeister70 said:


> That makes sense from what I was tasting. Sorry Kenlock - I was expecting a reasonably mature beer from the wiki and yours at the moment so isn't. At least it's headed off at the pass. Thanks for that Manticle.



No, No, my fault BM70. Good (and unknown to me) information about fermentation and the flavours that can be imparted at various stages. If it turns out alright I'll get you another bottle.

Cheers Ken


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## Supra-Jim (2/12/09)

Good news, I grabbed one of the spare bottles i had left from my batch. This beer is all carbed up and ready to go (i though it would take a little longe, but meh who's complaining?). Drink up lads!

Will update the wiki.

Cheers SJ


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## Supra-Jim (2/12/09)

Klieny - Munich Helles

Not having tried this style before, it was new ground for me. Great beer, thoroughly enjoyed it! I don't think there is much i can add that hasn't already been said about this beer.

Well done Klieny!

Cheers SJ


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## Kleiny (2/12/09)

#10 Manticle Robust Porter 12A

Aroma: Sweet and roasty malt aroma with low choc, slightly bready and some fruity maybe raisin from malt, little to no hop aroma and very clean.
9/12

Appearance: Good heady poor initially with the head off white tan in color but dissipates and leaves a slight ring around the glass, The head is fairly lose with larger bubbles. The color is great with a dark brown and ruby look opaque to almost clear just hard to tell on the darker beers.
2/3

Flavour: Roasty and choc with a grainy backbone, malt up front with a great roasty character, i do find some fruity raisiny quality within the beer brought maybe by the aroma but backed up by the malt, balance is on the malt side with enough bitterness from both malt and hops. I dont really get much astringency or alc warmth. I did get a little spice as well which added to complexity.
17/20

Mouthfeel:Med body with a med to high carbonation which is great for style, Creamy moutfeel, I do detect a slight diacetyl with a buttery like coating of the mouth. 
3.5/5

Overall: Great impression and im glad to have half a bottle left to really enjoy, It shows good style with roast and choc flavours the raisin not out of place. Some bready from yeast profile possibly and some spice, the dark malts help to balance along with the hop additions, Great job. I would just look at maybe taking the alc/vol up a little and reduceing the attenuation to be a bit fuller in the mouth feel and bring out the malt. The slight diacetyl is not an issue in this style and does not detract from the beer. You could always add a little more complexity in the recipe.
8/10

Total 39.5
Excellent, exemplifies style well, requires minor fine tuning.

Manticle, great beer and will be sitting down to enjoy the rest of the bottle i think with the feedback above and from others you can adjust this into a great beer for the Robust Porter style. I didnt get any oxidation within the profile so i dont know what you are worrying about.

Kleiny


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## zebba (2/12/09)

Kleiny said:


> I didnt get any oxidation within the profile so i dont know what you are worrying about.


It was in response to a comment from me. I got what I thought seemed like a slight vinous/port flavour, which I think is the raisin flavour you mentioned. I was merely questioning whether that was an oxidation flavour or a malt flavour. From your review, I'm concluding it's a malt flavour.


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## Kleiny (2/12/09)

Oxidation flavours i find to be like a cardboard type flavour, aroma, vibe. its all about the vibe.

Good work trying to figure out flavours and aromas but zebba keep it up


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## zebba (2/12/09)

Kleiny said:


> Oxidation flavours i find to be like a cardboard type flavour, aroma, vibe. its all about the vibe.
> 
> Good work trying to figure out flavours and aromas but zebba keep it up


LOL. I'd read that some big beers take on a port like quality as they age which is due to mild oxidation in the bottle. Don't ask where I read it. If I even read it. Maybe it was all in a dream? If it was a dream it was certainly better then last nights - who would have known that one man could slaughter so many people?


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## Maple (2/12/09)

Zebba said:


> It was in response to a comment from me. I got what I thought seemed like a slight vinous/port flavour, which I think is the raisin flavour you mentioned. I was merely questioning whether that was an oxidation flavour or a malt flavour. From your review, I'm concluding it's a malt flavour.


Zeb, in answer to this, the dark fruit/vinuous flavors can and certainly be attributable to the malt. Have a look at the descriptions for dingemanns special b malt


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## zebba (2/12/09)

Maple said:


> Zeb, in answer to this, the dark fruit/vinuous flavors can and certainly be attributable to the malt. Have a look at the descriptions for dingemanns special b malt


Yeah, I've read up on special B, and I'm currently culturing up some Unibroue dregs with special B in mind 

In other news...

*2. Maple - Rye IPA*

I'm a hop head, through and through. No amount of hops is too much - at least, in my experience to date! As a result, most the commercial beers I purchase tend to be IPA variants of some sort or another. And most of them leave me underwhealmed, with an impression that they are brewing more for the label than the legend. This one hasn't.

Smells like what an IPA should smell like. Bitterness is big and bold. Body is thick and meaty. Head is creamy, and sticks around.

The wife hated it. I loved it.

This is close to the beer I had in mind when I brewed my swap IPA. It's got balls. My only negative is that it seems a bit more "resiny" then I'd like - the resin flavours of the hops overwhealm the other flavours. But then again, that's also a strength.

Thanks maple. Label was tops also


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## Maple (2/12/09)

It's a 'special' malt but you can go overboard. Limit It to less than 10% 5 is a good target. Glad you liked the rye ipa.


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## WarmBeer (2/12/09)

*11 - WarmBeer - ESB*

I'm going to review my own beer before any other feedback, because, as somebody rightfully said, it's good form to taste your own beers before giving them to others. With that in mind, I preceded this beer with a "Trial" batch that I simply scaled up, and accounted for the difference in %AA of the hops.

The beer pours with very little head, pretty much a thin white lining around the edge of the top of the glass, although it is persistent. Very few small bubbles raising through the glass.

Colour is a dark copper to amber, but quite murky. I'm not sure if this is due to the particular strain of yeast (Wyeast 1968) or due to the several rousings of the yeast during fermentation. I have the same issue with the trial batch, but it does not bother me in the slightest.

Fuggles are slightly discernable in the aroma, but mostly the yeast character.

Taste is bitter at first, then the quite sweet maltiness comes through, although the bitterness stays on the tongue after the malt has faded. Carbonation is low, this is by design.

I brew beers to suit my own tastes (der!), and this is how I like my beers. Flat, warm, and flavourful.

</narcissism>


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## manticle (2/12/09)

I'm quite looking forward to a low carbed, non hoppy english style. What temp would you recommend for drinking?

@Kleiny - Thanks for the feedback. Might try mashing a touch hotter next time to up the body a smidgeon. Glad you enjoyed.


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## WarmBeer (2/12/09)

manticle said:


> I'm quite looking forward to a low carbed, non hoppy english style. What temp would you recommend for drinking?


I just take it out of the fridge 10 to 15 mins beforehand.


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## manticle (2/12/09)

I'll do something similar. What should I wear while I drink it? Which direction should I face? Does it go with mustard?

And who is that odd fellow standing at the back of the room?


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## WarmBeer (2/12/09)

manticle said:


> What should I wear while I drink it? Which direction should I face? Does it go with mustard?
> 
> And who is that odd fellow standing at the back of the room?


Mu-mu. North-by-north-west. Yes, but mayonnaise elevates it to another level.

It's your strange uncle-in-law, Bruce. He want's his 70's porn collection back, now!

:lol:

Edit: Off to bed, brain's kinda soaked now.


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## Hutch (3/12/09)

With no PC at home, I've been unable to post tasting thoughts at the time, so here's a summary/rambling of a few more to date...

*1. Kleiny - Munich Helles*

Beautiful beer. This bloke does ze German beers well. Cristal clear, good carb. Low noble hop aroma, but a distinctive "German" malt character that, as someone has already stated, is not dissimilar to many a commercial example. How do you get this character Kleiny? I don't get it with Weyermann Pils malt on it's own. Fermentation character was high-class, though I detected the slightest yeast character as it warmed. Nothing a good long lagering wouldn't fix up. 
Sensational effort.

*3. Seemax - Kiwi Pale Ale*

Dooooh. Bad luck with this one. Rubber, band-aids and phenolics are evident of a post-primary infection. Don't need to harp on about it. I suspect there's an issue with your post-fermentation handling and sanitation (some loogies lurking about in a tap/hose somewhere maybe).

*5. Fourstar - Reunification Express, Viet Rice Lager*

Another stellar beer, possibly too well made for comparison to the commercial examples. Commercially you often get a bit of the old cat's piss (skunked) and slight yeast autolysis character (high-temp lager fermentation). With your's, there's none of this. To quote 4* it's "uber" clean, and "uber" enjoyable. Slight chill-haze (bottle was crystal clear before going into the fridge), and very slight sulphur on the nose - both indicative of a shorter than ideal lagering time. Hardly a criticism, given we all put down beers wihin a few months or less from the case-swap. 
I think this beer is the perfect summer quaffer for sitting around on a hot day. There is nothing objectionable about it, very clean and crisp, with a very nice hop presence that lingers in the background.
Another sensational effort.

*11. Warmbeer -ESB*

Memories getting a little clouded, but this was another very tasty drop. English through and through, with balanced hop aromas, and fruity yeast character. Initial impretion was that you'd used one of the more pungent Yorkshire yeasts (WY 1187, WY1469) though I'm surprised to read it was 1968 ESB. Especially surprised that this was essentially an extract beer - marvelous job! Only criticism would be the slightly excessive use of dark "cara" malts, which lend a dominant toasty character to the malt flavour. That's probably just a personal preference thing. You can easily acheive the same colour with a small handfull of very dark roasted malt (say carafa special).
Very noice - I wish I had another bottle of this for the next cold and rainy day.

*15. Don Mateo - Hefeweizen*

Another stellar Hefe from this brewer, who obviously knows this style well (judging from previous case-swaps). The phenolics were well restrained, though very pleasant. Fermentation was evidently well controlled, with good yeast management. What yeast was this Don? This beer went down very nicely last night in the heat, and my wife (wheat/wit beer lover) gave it the thumbs up. Nothing much more I can say - a fine example of a Hefe. 
Cheers.


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## brendo (3/12/09)

2. Maple's Rye Ipa - Judged as 14B (US IPA)

I chose to judge this as a US IPA, rather than specialty as the BJCP guidelines suggested.

*Aroma *9/12
First impressions were an assualt of US hop aromas - citrusy and piney, very hop forward. Malt character was initially low, but came our more as the sample warmed with some caramel and spicy notes. No detectable yeast based esters - nice and clean.

*Appearance* 2/3
Good dense, off white head upon pouring which hangs around throughout the glass, providing some nice lacing along the way. 
Mid copper colour - mild haze initially, which I put down to hops, however as the sample warmed it did become clearer, so perhaps there is a slight chill haze in the beer. Either way, not a problem for style, but something to consider. Legs evident which indicate higher alcohol content, which is appropriate for style.

*Flavour *15/20
Citrusy US hop character, assertive bitterness which is supported by good malt sweetness and caramel notes. Spicey rye character comes out more as it warms which adds to the bitterness levels - balance is definitely towards the hops, which I like. Hops were a little resinous and provided some coating on the teeth, but wasn't over the top. Some sweetness also evident from alcohol. No detectable fermentation flaws, pretty clean.

*Mouthfeel* 4.5/5
Smooth, medium body with a pleasing moderate carbonation level which nicely promotes the hop bitterness. Some alcohol warming qualities as i drink through the sample - which is appropriate. Finishes relatively dry, which I mostly attribute to the lingering hop bitterness and spicieness from the Rye. 

*Overall Impression* 8/10
This is a very enjoyable beer - ballsy, hop forward version of the style. Hops are assertive with good contribution across bitterness, flavour and aroma. Malt profile does a good job to support the hops and provide some balance in a supporting role. I like the spicey notes that the Rye adds, lends some interest to the malt profile and makes it not all about the hops. 

*Total* 38.5/50 (excellent)

********************************************************************************
*********

Dave - thanks for putting this one into the swap - it is a top effort and I can see why it is your house beer. As we discussed at the BJCP meeting, I was pretty excited to taste this one after sampling another rye IPA at the recent ANHC Dinner. I think this one stacks up really nicely against the other - but they really sit in different spectrums of the style. Yours is more hop forward, with a bigger rye character (the extra 10% definitely makes a difference), while the one from the dinner was less assertive in the bittering and had more caramel sweetness, bringing the balance back a little bit. It was also a bit lower on the alcohol side of things.

Which do I like better?? Couldn't really say - all I can say is that I will be brewing a Rye IPA over the xmas break!!!

Cheers,

Brendo


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## brendo (3/12/09)

19. Fents Cream Ale

Sorry mate... looks like I don't like the lactic character, which means I've learnt two things from your recent experience

1. clean taps regularly
2. I won't be rushing to brew a sour beer in a hurry

Bad luck mate - looking forward to you coming back with a vengence at the next swap with something absolutely killer!!

Brendo


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## Maple (3/12/09)

brendo said:


> Dave - thanks for putting this one into the swap
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Brendo



Thanks for the feedback. Glad you liked it.


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## Wonderwoman (3/12/09)

seemax said:


> Just finished WW's summer ale... very tasty indeed , super fruity hops!!


 
glad you liked it! the hops are half nelson sauvin and half galaxy (I became obsessed with galaxy after trying brendo's(?) galaxy pale ale at the last swap day)



manticle said:


> #24: Wonderwoman: Summer Ale
> 
> [snip]... I reckon the beer could do with a touch more maltiness and slightly less fizz...[snip]



Thanks for the review manticle. I tried this again last weekend (after Hutch reccommended it needs more malt to balance it) and I can see what you're both getting at... the finish is maybe a bit lacking. I'm still happy with it as a summer thirst quencher, but I may experiment with a maltier version in autumn


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## Maple (3/12/09)

OK so battle of the APA's tonight:

#25 - APA vs CAT 10a

Aroma: hops focused, but more fruity than citrus based, but OK, sort of a passionfruit crossed with citrus. Light hints of maltiness in the bakground but not enough to impact any definative aromatics from. No diacetyl and low to nil phenolics perceived 8/12

Appearance: off white head (OK) recedes to a low compact head that expels lacing from it (ok) Very hazy boardering on cloudy - not to style as this seems more than dry hop haze. colour is a cross between irish setter and american bred golden retriever. 1.5/3

Flavour: super cloying sweetness upfront and through-out. it's trying hard to hide behind the bitterness, but isn't coping well, like a fat kid behind a telegraph pole. the lingering bitterness gets dominated by the Caramel flavors coming through. Some alcohol warming to this sample as well. 10/20

Mouthfeel: very creamy - unuasual for this style. Overly sweet and to the cloying point. Carbonation is meduim, which would be well suited to the style. 2/5

OVerall: Far to sweet, whether perceived or fault through lack of proper attenuation. Hops are at teh good level for the style but are somewhat muted by the overwhelmingly sweetness, perhaps imparted from over use of crystal malts. With the level of caramel maltiness this example brings, it may be better treated as a heavier american style such as the Amber or Brown, and make the adjustments accordingly, but far too much sweetness for this style. There is also the alcohol warmth that is coming through on this that requires addressign, either OG is out or perhaps the fermentation regime needs to be examined further 5/10

Tally 26.5/50

**** i hate giving honest feedback. but really, i am only one, and this is what I perceive. I am happy to discuss my thought on this, and hope it helps in some way - cuz it really sucks to write....


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## Maple (3/12/09)

#17b APA vs. CAT 10a

Aroma: Very resiny dank grapefruity hop aromas on the front foot, with slight grainyiness on the back end. Citrus aromatics more as the sample warms, but grapefruit dominant. No Diacetyl detected. 9/12

Appearance: Head big and very slightly off-white and compact, not full of air. colour golden. V. slight haziness to it. Tight resilient head throughout. 3/3

Flavour: Smooth hop flavour - citrus mostly grapefruit again and some orange/lemon twist, maybe orange rind. Nicely balanced towards the hops with a grainy breadly like maltiness to keep the bitterness in check 16/20

Mouthfeel: Medium light body with a slight perceived crispness to it, perhaps lended by the hop bitterness. No astringency issues, and a meduim level carbonation to suit style. 4/5

Overall: huge hop flavour that is part and parcel with alot of the American 'C'hops, however nicely countered with the malt back-bone to support. V. Clean ferment leading to a refreshing example. Suggestions would be to add some malt complexity to this to give it a tweak, but an excellent example of the style. 8.5/10

Tally: 40.5/50


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## Fourstar (3/12/09)

Ok 2 reviews to pop up!

*6. CM2 - Aussie Gold Digger Lager. - Judged against AABC 2.1 (only style really relevant)*

Sweet caramel malt aroma. Spicy hops, clean ferment profile, some sweet malt and melanoiden notes present.
*Score: 7/12*

Light whispy pub foam and lace, dissipates quickly. Gold to light amber in appearance with some haze present
*Score: 1.5/3*

Toffee malt, nutty and melanoiden rich. Spicy hop flavours present and lingering bitterness in the finish. Malt sweetness balances this one out with some breadcrust notes resonating in the aftertaste.
*Score: 12/20*

Thin-moderate body, high carbonation. Sharpness on the tongue from carbonation.
*Score: 4/5*

Rather well balance malt to hop. may need a lower melanoiden richness to increase the sessionability of this beer as it has the ability to be a dead set quaffer. A lower % of toasted malts if any is a good start or highly kilned like Munich and melanoiden to improve the malt palate balance. Overall a well crafted beer. I can see why you love your dark beers so much CM2, it seems to carry over into the lighter styles for you as well. 
*Score: 6/10*

*Overall Score: 30.5/50* 




*10. Manticle: Robust Porter Judged against 12B.*

First up is an unfortunate metallic note. Light roast, no detectable hop aroma present. Subdued ester profile and a hint of bubblegum in the aroma.
*Score: 7/12*

Dark brown, relativly bright. Persistant tan head.
*Score: 3/3*

Nutty toasty busicut malt characteristics and some clean yet noticable alcohol. Balaced quite will. Bitterness is very smooth, almost giving the perception of being borderline for style. well rounded toastiness offset by cocoa notes. Finish is toasted and roasty with dusty chocolate notes, faint metallic note is also noticable in the finish.
*Score: 13/20*

High carbonation, light and dry, somewhat detracting. Probably due to the high carbonation and roasted malts giving the drying perception.
*Score: 3/5*

Great beer, will crafted, just needs some fine tuning to push it to the top of the list. Lower the carbonation as this makes the mouthfeel overtly dry and detracts from the flavourful and complex roasty characteristics. the metallic note picked up in the aroma and flavour was quite unfortuante and masked some fo the finer qualities in this beer. The malty palate was supurb, a nice clean ferment and complex and roasty. Suggesstions are to increase the mash temp to up the body, increase the IBU by atleast 5 points and lower the carbonation to help the roast shine.
*Score: 6/10*

*Overall Score: 32/50*


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## manticle (4/12/09)

Cheers for feedback. Next time I might mash a bit hotter.

Any suggestions on possible causes for metallic characteristics?


----------



## Supra-Jim (4/12/09)

> Overall: huge hop flavour that is part and parcel with alot of the American 'C'hops, however nicely countered with the malt back-bone to support. V. Clean ferment leading to a refreshing example. Suggestions would be to add some malt complexity to this to give it a tweak, but an excellent example of the style. 8.5/10




Thanks for the feedback Maple, glad you enjoyed it. Gave SWMBO a sample last night and she enjoyed it and requested i brew another batch.

Cheers SJ


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## Maple (4/12/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> Thanks for the feedback Maple, glad you enjoyed it. Gave SWMBO a sample last night and she enjoyed it and requested i brew another batch.
> 
> Cheers SJ


I did the same and SWMBO asked if I can spot you an extra point on her behalf. She's very picky about what she likes, and this one passed the test, so that's certainly kudos to you.


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## gava (4/12/09)

I've been slowly getting into theses beers.. I would give feed back but im limited to "I liked it" or "I didn't like it" and most likely the reason for not liking it is becasuse of theses styles are new to me...

So far I liked most of them... I've been ticking them off.. I remember wonderwoman was good.. i enjoyed that one..


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## brendo (4/12/09)

gava said:


> I've been slowly getting into theses beers.. I would give feed back but im limited to "I liked it" or "I didn't like it" and most likely the reason for not liking it is becasuse of theses styles are new to me...
> 
> So far I liked most of them... I've been ticking them off.. I remember wonderwoman was good.. i enjoyed that one..



don't be put off by the depth that some of the swappers are reviewing a beer - those of us doing BJCP are simply using hi as an exercise for practice. 

Your opinions are just as valid and I would urge you too post your thoughts - regardless of detail. I nothing else it will tell you more about what you do and don't like and will get you thinking more about beer in a critical sense. 

Most importantly - you don't have to agree with others opinions either - tasting is personal and subjective. 

Enjoy

brendo


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## Wonderwoman (4/12/09)

gava said:


> So far I liked most of them... I've been ticking them off.. I remember wonderwoman was good.. i enjoyed that one..




:icon_cheers: thanks!


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## Fourstar (4/12/09)

manticle said:


> Cheers for feedback. Next time I might mash a bit hotter.
> 
> Any suggestions on possible causes for metallic characteristics?



Only cause i usually run into with this issue is rusty caps. I licked yours so there is no issue there, the beginning of an infection throwing metallic like notes maybe? How carbonated was this supposed to be as mine was quite lively and almost carbonic. It could also be an issue with a pot/kettle rusting too.

Could also be the onset of Brett? 


> Brettanomyces taints are often referred to as "Bretty", "mousy", "metallic", or as having "Brett character".


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## beerDingo (4/12/09)

Cheers for the review Maple. This was my 2nd brew in my new pot, and yes my OG was out. It was MUCH higher than I expected, so that will cause the alcohol warmth. From memory, I added a handful of extra Crystal, and a handfull of chocolate malts, so that would also explain the extra sweetness. I kinda wanted that, but not such a high alcohol %.


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## brettprevans (4/12/09)

given that 4* seems to have gotten an ok bottle of mine i recon that confirms that there is an issue with the beer coming out of the 2nd keg that went into the caseswap. there's only a handful of bottles that cam from the 2nd keg so let me know if you want a replacement bottle of something else. doest seem fair to take good beer form everyone and not provide drinkable beer back.....


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## Maple (4/12/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> ....doest seem fair to take good beer form everyone and not provide drinkable beer back.....


But you haven't - they are still at my place - calling me, asking to be freed....


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## brettprevans (4/12/09)

Maple said:


> But you haven't - they are still at my place - calling me, asking to be freed....


i'll swing by tomorrow and collect if your around.


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## Maple (4/12/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> i'll swing by tomorrow and collect if your around.


But they are calling me... you're on the wagon, and they know that!


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## manticle (4/12/09)

Fourstar said:


> Only cause i usually run into with this issue is rusty caps. I licked yours so there is no issue there, the beginning of an infection throwing metallic like notes maybe? How carbonated was this supposed to be as mine was quite lively and almost carbonic. It could also be an issue with a pot/kettle rusting too.
> 
> Could also be the onset of Brett?




I really hope not. I have a few bottles set aside to allow a bit more maturity so I'll check them out.

Pots aren't rusty.

Carbonation is around 2.2 - 3 from memory (I think I wrote what I did in the recipe thread). I'd probably drop it a tad next time. I've only just started to let my bottles mature (normally drink everything way too early) so I may be knocking my carbonation back to 2 and below for future brews. If anything it might have been a bit high but carbonic sounds a bit full on. Maybe there was something wrong with yours (hopefully the only one) and you drank it before it hit. I might check one out tonight or tomorrow.


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## Fourstar (4/12/09)

manticle said:


> Carbonation is around 2.2 - 3 from memory (I think I wrote what I did in the recipe thread). I'd probably drop it a tad next time. I've only just started to let my bottles mature (normally drink everything way too early) so I may be knocking my carbonation back to 2 and below for future brews. If anything it might have been a bit high but carbonic sounds a bit full on. Maybe there was something wrong with yours (hopefully the only one) and you drank it before it hit. I might check one out tonight or tomorrow.



Hmm 2.2-2.3 isnt all that high and probably spot on for a porter. i'd say its more like a 3 vols, atleast the bottle i had. Do you usually bulk prime?


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## manticle (4/12/09)

Always bulk prime. Hopefully it was the individual bottle because that doesn't sound right.

If the others are ok would you like another?


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## zebba (4/12/09)

The carb on the one I had was quite low - about what I would expect for a porter.


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## Fourstar (4/12/09)

manticle said:


> Always bulk prime. Hopefully it was the individual bottle because that doesn't sound right.
> 
> If the others are ok would you like another?



Its cool chief!  Was still a good beer!


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## Leigh (5/12/09)

brendo said:


> don't be put off by the depth that some of the swappers are reviewing a beer - those of us doing BJCP are simply using hi as an exercise for practice.
> 
> Your opinions are just as valid and I would urge you too post your thoughts - regardless of detail. I nothing else it will tell you more about what you do and don't like and will get you thinking more about beer in a critical sense.
> 
> ...




People should also note that unless they brewed to a BJCP category (style), then the BJCP guys might "have" to give low scores for an otherwise great beer...would like to see these sorts of comments from you BJCP guys too...unfortunately, my beer should fall within style so I don't have any excuse!


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## Leigh (5/12/09)

manticle said:


> Carbonation is around 2.2 - 3 from memory (I think I wrote what I did in the recipe thread). I'd probably drop it a tad next time. I've only just started to let my bottles mature (normally drink everything way too early) so I may be knocking my carbonation back to 2 and below for future brews. If anything it might have been a bit high but carbonic sounds a bit full on. Maybe there was something wrong with yours (hopefully the only one) and you drank it before it hit. I might check one out tonight or tomorrow.



The one I had was around 2 volumes of CO2...


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## WarmBeer (5/12/09)

2. Maple - Rye IPA

Great beer, mate. Hadn't tried a rye beer before your Berlinner Ryesse at the swap, but this one will not be my last.

A little hazy, which is not unusual for an IPA, but that extra tangy taste out of the rye is great.

You'll be happy to know, I'm enjoying your beer while popping my cherry on MY VERY FIRST AG, TONIGHT! (Well, apart from helping out at the case swap). One for the trophy room.

Sad to see the end of the bottle.


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## manticle (7/12/09)

11. Warmbeer - ESB

This one has only been chilled a short time so is probably around 12 degrees. I've left the rest in the fridge so I will chill it completely then allow to warm a little.

Pours with a creamy head.
Nice clear, deep amber colour
Aroma is all malt

Carbonation seems spot on to me.

Flavour is really nice and rich as the aroma would suggest. Very light bitterness and very sweet. There's almost a golden syrup/treacle or melted brown sugar type quality to this. I love rich brown malty beers. However I reckon this one either needs to be balanced out with some grain complexity or some extra bitterness or both.

Something this colour I would expect more of a grain flavour so I'm guessing this is an extract? I would suggest a few more spec grains on a pale base extract, upping the hop bitterness a tad and aiming for slightly bigger attenuation.

Tasty and the kind of beer I favour - just needs more complexity.

Cheers

Read your recipe after posting this. Doesn't seem like 34 IBU so I reckon it's the sweetness that's putting it out of blance. Not sure if maybe those different caramel malts might be contributing - it might be worth using a slightly more roasty malt in addition/substitution. A touch of roast barley would give some of that red colour and contribute no sweetness for example.


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## WarmBeer (7/12/09)

manticle said:


> Something this colour I would expect more of a grain flavour so I'm guessing this is an extract? I would suggest a few more spec grains on a pale base extract, upping the hop bitterness a tad and aiming for slightly bigger attenuation.



Thanks mate, yeah, I've been tiptoeing around the extract sweetness thing for my last couple of brews, without a whole lot of success. Have tried both DDME and LDME, extra hops, steeping grains. Finally pushed me over to doing my first AG on the weekend, so can't wait to get it fermented out and start the new year drinking it.

Linky - with piccies


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## manticle (7/12/09)

Good stuff.

While AG is not the holy grail if your brewing is below par, it does make a noticeable difference if you're already brewing decent beer.

Whereabouts wer your extracts finishing? I always had trouble getting under 1018 (usually 1020 and some even higher).


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## chris.taylor.98 (7/12/09)

Ok back from the GVBR and ready to start the swap tastings.

*5. Fourstar - Reunification Express, Viet Rice Lager - Drink Now*

Sweet bready malt, some yeast esters, get an unidentified fermentable that is presumably the rice. No noticeable hops.

Much more inviting than the 333 that I had whilst in Vietnam early this year.

*Score: 8/12*

Clear to slight haze, straw colour. Persitent white head.

*Score: 2/3*

Very subtle, easy drinking

Evenly balanced.

Some bitterness in the finish, that gets more pronounced as more is consumed.

Evidence of the rice adjunct. 

Yeast esters not as prominent as in the aroma.

Very clean.

*Score: 17/20*

Some noticeable alcohol warming, medium to medium high carbonation. Pleasant silky finish. Medium body.

*Score: 4/5*

Great beer fourstar. No noticeable fermentation or brewing faults. 

My only criticism compared to my very limited experience on this style is that there where more yeast esters then expected, and a truckload more body (and presumably malt). This in my opinion only serves to make it a much better beer, but if we where truly after the Vietnamese Rice Lager experience I think you need to back off a touch on the bittering hops, a lot on the malt and dry it out a touch more.

*Score: 8/10*

*Overall Score: 39/50*


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## WarmBeer (7/12/09)

manticle said:


> Whereabouts wer your extracts finishing? I always had trouble getting under 1018 (usually 1020 and some even higher).



Mostly around the 1016 mark. Tend to leave mine for up to 3 weeks, and ramp up the temp by a degree or 2 for the last week, this would get it to drop those last couple of points.

With the ESB, the yeast (1968) is a notorious flocculator, but managed to get it down to 1014 with a couple of rousings with a sanitised spoon.


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## chris.taylor.98 (7/12/09)

manticle said:


> Just realised you provided a link to the recipe in the wiki which I read after taking the notes above.
> 
> So you did use a version of PoR?



Thanks for the feedback.

Just to screw around with peoples perceptions I used a mixture of East Kent Goldings and Super Pride with the "French Press" (hop tea method).

I believe Super Pride is a derivative of PoR.

Here is a linky to the Tripel recipe.


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## Leigh (7/12/09)

1. Kleiny - Munich Helles

Nice hoppy nose on opening, nicely balanced malt and hop bitterness as it passes the lips, but strong "burnt biscuit" (don't know how else to describe it) lingering after taste. Having drunk a few helles I know this is spot on to style, but for mine, I just have never got used to the lingering after taste of a helles.

Apart frrom my personal preference, I think this is a great representation of the style and a good beer.

oh, and the wife adds "nice label" (said with sarcasm)...I dread to think what she'll say about Maples LOL


5. Fourstar - Reunification Express, Viet Rice Lager 

Mate, what can be said that hasn't already been said. You live dangerously and have pulled this one off magnificently! A beautiful session beer that went down a treat! Top marks for you 4*.


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## manticle (7/12/09)

Cheers Chris.


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## Kleiny (8/12/09)

#17 Zebba IPA

Aroma: Citrus hops, some grassy type aroma's, cara in the background. Some acetaldehyde and maybe acetobacter
2/12

Appearence: Cloudy light brown color with a large rocky head which lasts.
1/3

Flavour: Acetaldehyde present and really tastes of green apples even with the after taste. Tartness with some astringency, as it warms it gets harder to make out hops and malt profile.
4/20

Mouthfeel: Medium body, good carb and a lasting head.
2/5

Overall: Infected example need to look at cleanlyness within your saetup and bottleing, possibly temp control if you dont already have it. Look at the O2 requirement of yeast prior to fermentation and adjust, dont allow any O2 during anything after the ferment may result in oxidative flavor's.
2/10

11/50

Sorry zeb just couldn't bring myself to drink to much and the above is what i got.


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## Kleiny (8/12/09)

#19 Fents Cream ale

sorry fents 20/50 all up and look the major flaws have been pointed out already, i have filled a sheet out but dont think i really have anything to contribute. Thanks man keep up the brewing and i hope to catch up with you soon.


#20 Gava Drs Golden ale judged against APA 10A

Aroma: Citrus hop aroma with some background sweet caramel. Its a clean aroma not really any fusals or Estery fruityness.
8/12

Appearance: Golden to amber color but opaque or cloudy but not really from dry hopping with a low head that falls fast.
1/3

Flavour: Citrus hop flavour right up on the first sip, some caramalt style background and the balance on the bitter side and hop preceeds the malt, some slight oxidation probably from the low bottle fill, possibly add more the hop bill later in the boil to really kick the citrus flavour.
14/20

Mouthfeel; Light to moderate and carb is good but might be pushed a little higher to really bring the beer on. 
3.5/5

Overall impression: Good beer balance dto the hop side but still with enough maltyness to carry. Look at transfer prctices to bottle and carb levels as well as bringing some more of the hop charge to later boil for a better result.
7.5/10

34/50 Very good, generally within style with some flaws

Kleiny


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## chris.taylor.98 (8/12/09)

notung said:


> *BOTTLE BOMB BEWARE!*
> 
> 
> This morning I went into the shed to find bottle bomb shrapnel from my hefe. I really advise tasters to take precautions by putting this bottle in the fridge or perhaps gingerly opening up seal and recapping(?). I'm sorry if this has caused anyone grief!
> ...



Opened mine tonight and did not seem to be on the verge of exploding. Has been in the fridge overnight though.

Good way to get peps to try your beer early though  

Well know that its open, here are the tasting notes.

*13. Notung - bloodorange honey hefeweizen*

Pours relatively clear, not much head, and this bottle actually seems undercarbonated if anything.

Definitely getting some of the honey through the aroma and the flavour.

Some warming alcohol, thin to medium body.

Bready malt and some clove as well as banana.

Slight bitter aftertaste.

Goes down pretty easily. Actually think mine could have done with a little extra time carbonating.

Generally no perceived fermentation issues. As far as the honey flavour goes think it needs more if you want it to stand out against the hefe yeast flavours. 

I know that in the recipe thread it was suggested to steer away from assertive honey types such as leatherwood etc, but when you are combating very prominent flavour profiles such as the hefe yeast throws out, it might stand out a bit more. Our clubs mead making expert makes a great leatherwood mead, and others often use it to flavour porters and other honey beers. I do agree that for a straight meed, orange blossom is a fairly safe bet though.

All in all a good summer drinking ale.


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## manticle (8/12/09)

#13: Notung: Blood Orange Honey Hefeweizen:

Pours with a fluffy head which quickly dissipates.

Light Golden straw colour, reasonably clear with a slight haze. Not really 'hefe' cloudy which bothers me not one way or the other as far as cosmetics go.

Citrus aroma

Flavour and mouthfeel are light. I didn't have any carb problems. On tasting I can get a definite hit of honey, much less blood orange. The honey makes the usual clovey/banana harder to find but I don't mind that. My main enjoyment from hefes comes from their tendency to be a very refreshing, thirst quencher which clovey dryness can help with. That's it's main attraction for me.
This beer certainly fits that bill. 

While I might expect more blood orange and honey from reading the descrpition, I think you've actually done a really nice job keeping it subtle and restrained. If it were a porter I might expect a goode strong dose of citrus but with this it makes sense to hold off. Good, tasty, hot weather stuff.


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## zebba (9/12/09)

Kleiny said:


> Sorry zeb just couldn't bring myself to drink to much and the above is what i got.


Sounds like I should be apologising. 

I'm not sure what has happened with this one. I had one prior to the swap to make sure it was OK and it was fine. The two I've had since the swap, one has been dodgy (still quite drinkable, but not up to scratch), the other was also fine.

This variance between bottles is a concern. I soaked all the bottles in sodium perc overnight the day before bottling, then on the day gave them all a quick brush, rinse then a dose of Idophur. I can only think that the quick brush was not enough. Or the tap.

Sorry mate. I'll try to make it up to ya somehow


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## hairofthedog (9/12/09)

Maples rye IPA 

dude thats a massive beer on every level full of citrus hops flavor & bitterness heaps of toffee flavors & an ABV to match cracker of a beer mate could get pissed on that easy :chug:


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## hairofthedog (9/12/09)

Klieny Munich Helles 

mate what can i say perfectly balanced beer enjoyed every drop :icon_cheers:


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## WarmBeer (9/12/09)

*21. Hutch - Nelson Sauvin pseudo-lager*

Pours a little cloudy, which doesn't dissipate as the beer warms. Nice off-white head quickly disappears, but keeps a small ring around the top of the glass.

Strong aroma of hops, with a very subtle vegetal under-current. Reminds me of another beer I drank as a younger man, but can't put my finger on it now. I'm not really familiar with Nelson Sauvin, having only ever had it in the Knappstein Lager before. 

Medium carbonation, and a little bit dry on the tip of the tongue. You have really nailed the balance on this beer. Bitterness lingers after the malt has subsided.

Could easily drink more than a couple of these in a session. 

A-. Thanks Hutch.


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## Leigh (9/12/09)

3. Seemax - Kiwi Pale Ale

Poured flat, tasted of green apples and bandaids. While cold, taste had a fair "hop" character that masked much of the apples and bandaids, but as it warmed the apples and bandaids came forward.

Bad luck mate. Not the worst beer I've tasted as I managed two pots.


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## WarmBeer (10/12/09)

*10. Manticle: Robust Porter*

Think I opened this a little bit too warm, as I got a slow stream of foam out the top until I quickly poured it into a glass.

Colour looks spot on for a porter, more brown than ruby, and with a beige head. A little cloudy when held up to the light.

Smell is almost all malt and a little roastiness. No hop smell, at least to my nose.

Taste is initially chocolate and plum, with a little bit of coffee. The maltiness hangs around for quite a while, with a hint of vanilla. Moderate to low carbonation, which surprised me a little, as like myself, I know you like a low carbonated beer. It contributes a slight fizzy bitterness on the tongue initially, but is in no way off-putting.

Man, I really like this beer! I really, really like this beer. The complexity, the flavour, the level of carb all make what is possibly the perfect non-summer beer for me. I will be getting this recipe off the other thread, and changing my "brew queue" to bump this straight to the top.

A - Thanks Mants

PS. Only noticed the subtle label on the bottle after emptying it. Nice one. Quite a few people have put some effort and/or humour into their labels this swap. Makes me feel a little cheap for just writing my number on a sticky label on the top of the bottle...


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## manticle (10/12/09)

Glad you enjoyed it - just put this one down again but with some irish ale yeast as the whitbread seemd not to be taking off. Something's working because she's dropped 35 points since Tuesday.

You'll need to tailor the exact amounts (water loss etc) for your system but the basic grain proportions should be good and the caramelisation of a wort portion is a must. Thick brown toffee too - just shy of being burnt.

Just to repeat - people should chill this right down first, then allow it to warm to around 10 before drinking.


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## hairofthedog (10/12/09)

4* Viet

4* youve really nailed that beer mate bright clean easy drinker withn no detectable faults thats 2 ripper swap beers in a row for you mate keep up the good work :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (10/12/09)

Hey hair of the dog - when is your beer ready for drinking?


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## Fourstar (10/12/09)

Leigh said:


> 5. Fourstar - Reunification Express, Viet Rice Lager
> Mate, what can be said that hasn't already been said. You live dangerously and have pulled this one off magnificently! A beautiful session beer that went down a treat! Top marks for you 4*.





hairofthedog said:


> 4* Viet
> 4* youve really nailed that beer mate bright clean easy drinker withn no detectable faults thats 2 ripper swap beers in a row for you mate keep up the good work



Cheers guys! :icon_cheers: 

Thanks for the Kudos! Glad you enjoyed the beer. :beerbang:


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## hairofthedog (11/12/09)

manticle said:


> Hey hair of the dog - when is your beer ready for drinking?



ready for drinking anytime mants


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## WarmBeer (11/12/09)

*17a. Zebba - "Redcoats" IPA*

Pours kinda cloudy, with a nice orange hue. Head is big and fluffy, slowly subsides to a thin layer over a couple of minutes.

Aroma is predominantly American hops. Strong, without being overpowering.

Medium to low carbonation, very few bubbles in the beer. Mouthfeel is quite full.

Quite a big hit of bitterness up front, as I'd expect from the amount of hops you've put in. Can get a little bit of extract sweetness, but really have to think about it. The hop flavour just lingers and lingers. Can't really taste anything of the yeast, but it's been blasted into oblivion by all those IBU's 

I reckon you've made a good beer here, mate. It's not to my personal preferences, and it's not a "balanced" beer, but I would happily drink another bottle after this one, if I had it. And another after that.

(B+)


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## manticle (11/12/09)

#9: Leigh: Dusseldorf alt

Sorry to be the first one to tell you but I think you have a vinegar infection. That was all I could taste.

I'm not sure if acetobacter can grab onto a single bottle but hopefully it can and mine was the only one.

As with seemax I was concerned that I hadn't rinsed my glass properly after dousing with white vinegar but tastes from the bottle and a separate clean but unvinegared vessel revealed the same thing.


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## manticle (11/12/09)

#12: Hair of the dog - Russian Imperial stout.

I've been looking forward to trying this as there are so few dark beers in the swap and I'm a fan of dark beers.

Pours with a tan head which thins and remains with lacing.

Aroma is roasted malt.
Colour is like tar so clarity doesn't even enter into it. If I shut my eyes at night while wearing a blinfold and looked at an abstract black painting which was covered with bitumen then I'd have this beer.

First sip is as aroma - loads of roasted malt. Mouthfeel is thick and the carb levels combine to make it almost silky. Very smooth.
For some reason the first sip gave me a very strong metallic taste. I've encountered this before - usually when drinking kilkenny or guiness on tap and my assumption has been dirty lines. Not sure.

Anyway the good news is that after the first sip, the metallic taste all but disappears and I'm left with a beautifully thick, strong full flavoured stout. I can taste rich chocolate and plum with a touch of coffee. It's like how christmas pudding would be if it wasn't bought at the supermarket and served with shit custard on a 40 degree day - ie. fruity, rich, creamy and filling. Quite a delicious beer and well up my alley.

Have you included the recipe in the recipe thread? I'm a fan. Really, really nice and apart from/despite that original metal thingy, this is pretty much a perfect strong style stout for me. I could happily drink pints of this, whether summer or winter.


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## chris.taylor.98 (11/12/09)

*11. Warmbeer -ESB - Drink after 1/12*

Earthy spicy hop aroma with a hint of some fruity esters poking through. Suspect a bit of EKG and/or Fuggles action going on there.

Score: 7/12

Lovely light copper hue, slightly hazy and off white colour head that does not persist

Score: 2/3

More of the English hop flavours ( earthy, spicy goodness ) with a slight vegetable flavour (possibly derived from dry hopping?).

Malt flavour not very assertive and more of a background to dominate hop flavour.

Pleasing dry finish with even balance between malt and bitterness.

Score: 14/20

Medium body with low to medium carbonation ( good for this style ).

Some noticeable alcohol, but not hot or unpleasant.

Score: 4/5

Good attempt at a very difficult style Warmbeer. No major technical issues. Biggest issue with this example is the absence of assertive malt flavour expected with this style. Note I have brewed about 2 or 3 of these now, and don't seem to come close to achieving both assertive malt and hop character required. I find that the malt character takes a bit of time before it really matures ( > 3 months ) so it may come through with a bit of age.


Score: 7/10

Overall Score: 34/50


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## hairofthedog (12/12/09)

17 Supra jim apa

was looking forward to this beer after maples review so was really disapointed when i opened mine not that there was anything wrong with it just didnt taste anything like the review very little hop flavor no hop aroma not much malt flavor so quite a well made easy drinker just didnt have the punch of an apa imo did you make your swap up out of 2 batches ?


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## hairofthedog (12/12/09)

25 apa 

i agree with maple on this 1 more fruity than expected tastes like maybe us05 at a high ferment temp & a little heavy on the crystal malt but all said drank the whole thing & could drink another


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## hairofthedog (13/12/09)

15 Don Mataos

really nice Hefe mate everything youd expect from a good wheat beer cheers :icon_cheers:


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## hairofthedog (13/12/09)

9 Liegh Dusseldorf alt 

one of my favorite styles of beer unfortunalty this example is infected sorry mate better luck next time


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## Supra-Jim (13/12/09)

Hi Hairofthedog,

Sorry yours didn't measure up to the hype  . i had two bottles from this batch (single batch) and i been pretty happy with both, hop flavour and aroma have been good. Not sure what went wrong with yours.

Cheers SJ


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## notung (13/12/09)

Bit of a catch up post for me... Forgive the brief notes. I drank these beers a couple of weeks back but have felt bad posting nothing.

*2. Maple - Rye IPA - Dec 1 onwards.*
I think I was lucky to score one of the good bottles of this. Great hop-driven beer with nice body and interesting slippery mouthfeel imparted by the rye content. I had never tasted a beer with rye before, so thanks for this!

*6. CM2 - Aussie Gold Digger Lager. READY TO DRINK*





I'm sure we could develop an abusive relationship with this beer. Interesting deep gold colour, with a head that dissipated quickly. As I've mentioned before, I am a much bigger fan of ales and darker beers. All the same, this was a refreshing drinker and I enjoyed the moderate hoppiness.

*10. Manticle: Robust Porter: Ready to drink, Chill first then allow to warm to between 6 and 10 degrees.*
Wonderful chocolate/toffee notes coming from the malt. This was a delight to drink. You've inspired me to get some ingredients together and brew a MILD.

*5. Fourstar - Reunification Express, Viet Rice Lager - Ready To Drink!*
The others have said it already, but this was a beer with great clarity of flavours (while still being complex). I enjoyed the faint sweetness in the aroma and a certain flavour I was picking up which I assumed was the flaked rice. This has been one of the stand out beers of the swap, thanks heaps.

*19. Fents - cream ale - Drink my beer now or risk losing it for ever*
Interesting beer. I suppose this style is all about quaffability... Despite the flaw which others have already gone over, I enjoyed drinking this beer on a warm day.

*21. Hutch - Nelson Sauvin pseudo-lager - Ready to drink*
I'm sorry but I had to tip this beer out! My bottle was probably infected and gave off a real strong lactic sourness. What a shame, I was looking forward to this one!

*24. Wonderwoman - summer ale - ready to drink now*
Delicious and very morish. Mouthfuls of fruit salad as manticle described. Very refreshing, and went well with a cheese platter and apricots... I'll have to give something like this a go and my partner really liked it. Great label! :lol: 

Huzzah - caught up!


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## Hutch (13/12/09)

notung said:


> I'm sorry but I had to tip this beer out! My bottle was probably infected and gave off a real strong lactic sourness. What a shame, I was looking forward to this one!



Damn sorry for that mate. 
I rarely bottle, and when I do, I'm pretty anal about sterilisation, etc. however I have noticed in one bottle of this a very slight phenolic, indicative of post fermentation infection. It's certainly never happened in the past, though I could probably put it down bottling the beer on a very warm night during the heat wave in early November, and a few little bugs hanging around the brewery wanting a taste  

Thanks for letting me know, and hopefully it didn't affect anyone elses.


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## notung (14/12/09)

Hutch said:


> Damn sorry for that mate.
> I rarely bottle, and when I do, I'm pretty anal about sterilisation, etc. however I have noticed in one bottle of this a very slight phenolic, indicative of post fermentation infection. It's certainly never happened in the past, though I could probably put it down bottling the beer on a very warm night during the heat wave in early November, and a few little bugs hanging around the brewery wanting a taste
> 
> Thanks for letting me know, and hopefully it didn't affect anyone elses.



Don't worry about it Hutch. Shit happens, especially when you're brewing for a swap it seems. My pumpkin beer was a horrible writeoff for example. Maybe it's the pressure of those other tasters, now compounded by the BJCP crew and their scoring? Just kidding, I would really appreciate it if the others scored my beer - feedback is good!


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## Fourstar (14/12/09)

notung said:


> I would really appreciate it if the others scored my beer - feedback is good!



Not to mention you are getting it for free! 

I've so got to dig into my swap beers, i've been putting it off for sometime. The rate im going, CM2 will finish his cases before me!


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## brettprevans (14/12/09)

Fourstar said:


> Not to mention you are getting it for free!
> 
> I've so got to dig into my swap beers, i've been putting it off for sometime. The rate im going, CM2 will finish his cases before me!


doubtful. all my little babies are tucked away untouched 

Im thinking i might jump off the wagon on xmas day and try some of the swap beers (in moderation of course), then hope back onto the wagon again


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## Wonderwoman (14/12/09)

notung said:


> *24. Wonderwoman - summer ale - ready to drink now*
> Delicious and very morish. Mouthfuls of fruit salad as manticle described. Very refreshing, and went well with a cheese platter and apricots... I'll have to give something like this a go and my partner really liked it. Great label! :lol:




thanks! 

sorry to everyone for not putting up many reviews, I've been riddiculously busy organising multiple work christmas functions, my own birthday party, getting (my first set of) kegs runnning before my birthday party and in three days I'm driving to bryon bay. I haven't cleaned up from the party yet, let alone packed for the trip!  anyway, I haven't actually drunk many of them, so hopefully in the new year I can get around to taking a few notes.


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## beerDingo (14/12/09)

First I tried Kleiny's Munich Helles. Little to no head, dissipated quickly. Low hop aroma(but I assume it's supposed to be like that). Quite clear. Very tasty beer. Just would have liked a little more carb, but otherwise, I'd happily drink a bunch of these. Nice work.

Then, I tried Maple's - Rye IPA. Probably not the best beer to drink directly after Kleiny's beer! I say that as the Munich Helles, had little hops, whereas this punches you in the nose with them (it is an IPA, so it's supposed too). Again, little to no head that dissipated quickly. Huge hope aroma and flavor. I enjoyed this beer, but surprisingly I was almost hopped out. Nice beer, and you could taste lots of nice fresh hops.

Followed with, Zebba - "Redcoats" IPA. After the last 2 I was trying to put a head on it, but that was a mistake. Poured with a nice big head, that stayed around for a bit. Had to try not to give it a head on next glasses. Nice beer, but maybe not as hoppy as Maple's. It seems similar bitterness, but the hop flavor does not come through as much, and definitely not the fresh hops that I got from Maple's. However, I enjoyed this. 

Then yesterday I tried Manticle's: Robust Porter. Pulled it out of the fridge and poured myself and a mate a glass, then realised that it was supposed to be pulled out and left to warm up to 6-10. Left it out a while while I did some gardening. Once it warmed up, it tasted so much better! The malty roasted characteristics started to come through. My mate really enjoyed it as well. I've only really started to appreciate darker beers lately, and this is a good one! Would happily have a keg of this in the fridge.

Anyway, so far, thanks guys! Looking forward to trying more!


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## Leigh (14/12/09)

Bugger! Soory to those who have got an infected version of mine. I drunk one a few weeks ago that was still a bit green, but very much drinkable (but may have been before the infection took over the taste profile). 

Tasted another since reading the reviews and had to tip it out! Not sure whether this infection has occured during fermentation or post fermentation, would love to hear peoples thoughts on this. I've got a keg of this aging, I sure hope it is only the bottles that are bad


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## WarmBeer (14/12/09)

We sure are getting a whole lot of infections in this current batch of case swap brews.

Is it possibly due to the particular Melbourne weather around the start/mid November?

Last case swap, I can't recall a single infection being mentioned. Temperature would have been considerably lower, though.

Thoughts?


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## Hutch (14/12/09)

WarmBeer said:


> We sure are getting a whole lot of infections in this current batch of case swap brews.
> 
> Is it possibly due to the particular Melbourne weather around the start/mid November?
> 
> ...


I'm suspicious of this as well WarmBeer. 
I personally have never had a post-fermentation infection before this swap, and it is very dissapointing to know you've given out infected beer to other brewers. I can only really put it down to the weather at the time, and the fact that I bottle my beer outside, where air-born nasties have a small chance of spoiling the party.

Having said that, cheers to those who have avoided infections in this swap :icon_cheers:
Hutch


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## Fourstar (14/12/09)

Hutch said:


> I can only really put it down to the weather at the time, and the fact that I bottle my beer outside, where air-born nasties have a small chance of spoiling the party.



To me thats like walking through a minefield blindfolded! I'm cautious enough not to aerate my beer going into the fermenter with the back door open! :lol:


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## Hutch (14/12/09)

Fourstar said:


> To me thats like walking through a minefield blindfolded! I'm cautious enough not to aerate my beer going into the fermenter with the back door open! :lol:


I totally agree 4*, however... I had a beer disaster in the kitchen some time ago, (cracked fermenter and 20Ltrs unfermented wort all over/under floating floorboards - say no more!). So much so, I DO NOT let full fermenters/cubes inside the house any more, for fear of a repeat episode. 

Valuable/painful lesson learnt - HDPE fermenters are not UV stabilised, becoming very brittle after storage in the sun. 'nuf said.


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## Fourstar (14/12/09)

Sounds painful. Reminds me i have a cube cleaning and sitting out in the sun! h34r:


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## beerDingo (14/12/09)

:icon_offtopic: 

Does anyone know what the HDPE reading mean? ie., Rays Tent City has 20 litre cubes which are HDPE 6. Are they OK to use?


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## Supra-Jim (14/12/09)

High Density Poly Ethylene (I pretty sure thats it)

Cheers SJ

edit: sorry, i missed the bit about the reading (6) and ended up making a Capt'n Obvious statement do'h!


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## Hutch (14/12/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> High Density Poly Ethylene (I pretty sure thats it)
> 
> Cheers SJ
> 
> edit: sorry, i missed the bit about the reading (6) and ended up making a Capt'n Obvious statement do'h!


I'd be keen to find out what code (if any) HDPE is UV stabilised. I've had everything from jerry cans, fermenters, Bunning's plastic tubs, etc. go apaque and brittle in the sun. A lot of plastic ending up in the bin over the years. The black plastic, OTOH, doesn't seem to suffer UV issues (touch wood!)


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## notung (14/12/09)

Fourstar said:


> Not to mention you are getting it for free!



You're right - it's rather a privilege getting this without formally entering beers into a comp. Thanks again guys.
I have a bit to learn before I start entering Vicbrew and such:


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## brendo (14/12/09)

notung said:


> You're right - it's rather a privilege getting this without formally entering beers into a comp. Thanks again guys.
> I have a bit to learn before I start entering Vicbrew and such:



Smaller comps are a good way to start... good opportunity to get unbiased feedback as opposed to mates who will piss in your pockets for a free beer (or 10).

Check out the Beerfest thread for a comp coming up late Feb - perfect time to get brewing mate.

Brendo


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## hairofthedog (14/12/09)

21 Hutch 

sorry mate mine is very sour also


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## chris.taylor.98 (14/12/09)

*2. Maple - Rye IPA - Dec 1 onwards.*


Very dominant hop aroma, slight spiciness presumably from the malt. No noticeable esters. Very clean

Score: 8/12


Persistent off white head, some lacing. Deep golden colour, slightly hazy.

Score: 2/3


Very dominant hop flavour

Dry finish

Strong bitterness

Very clean

Rye malt is hard to detect with all the hop action going on. I must admit with my relatively inexperience in rye that I would pressed to describe the flavours that it adds to this example. I get a hint of it right at the end after the hop flavour and with the finishing bitterness, but not enough to satisfy my curiosity of what it would be like in a less hop dominated beer.

I also think that what rye flavour in there is blending very well with the selected hop flavours to the point that it is almost camouflaged.

No noticeable esters.

Score: 16/20


Full body. I expect some of that is due to the rye.

Medium carbonation

Noticeable alcohol.

Score: 4/5


This is another great IPA Maple. Absolute bucket loads of hop character. Bitterness is right up there (probably at about my personal limit, but appreciate that for some there are no bounds).

Very full bodied but well balanced. Dry finish really sets it off inviting you to come back for another mouthful. 

My only criticism is that if you are going to putting some interesting like rye in there, don't steam-roll over the top of it with a hop bomb. 

But seriously great beer. 

Score: 7/10


Overall Score: 37/50


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## zebba (16/12/09)

I've been slack lately, both in tasting and in writing what I've tasted up.

The last 3 sampled were:
6. CM2 - Aussie Gold Digger Lager
8. Chris Taylor - Pale Yarra (Australian/English pale ale)
24. Wonderwoman - summer ale

All of them did what they advertised and hit the spot nicely. Nothing negative about any of them. Thanks


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## Leigh (16/12/09)

I for one am extremely disappointed at the infection my beer appears to have got. A few firsts for me on this batch, first liquid yeast, first time fermented in the shed (instead of the house), and first time bottled in the shed...I suspect I have picked up something floating around in the shed (thinking pollen-borne), but also won't use a liquid yeast anytime soon either


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## Supra-Jim (16/12/09)

Don't be too disheartend Leigh, don't think of the infection as a reason to pull back on your brewing, but a rather unfortunate (and public) opportunity to have a look at your process and make a few improvements. 

Home brewing is a hobby about constant tinkering, experimenting and hopefully improvement!!

Cheers SJ


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## manticle (16/12/09)

Leigh said:


> I for one am extremely disappointed at the infection my beer appears to have got. A few firsts for me on this batch, first liquid yeast, first time fermented in the shed (instead of the house), and first time bottled in the shed...I suspect I have picked up something floating around in the shed (thinking pollen-borne), but also won't use a liquid yeast anytime soon either



Don't give up on the liquids just yet mate.


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## Fents (16/12/09)

Leigh said:


> I for one am extremely disappointed at the infection my beer appears to have got. A few firsts for me on this batch, first liquid yeast, first time fermented in the shed (instead of the house), and first time bottled in the shed...I suspect I have picked up something floating around in the shed (thinking pollen-borne), but also won't use a liquid yeast anytime soon either



hey at least your taps were probably cleaner than mine!


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## Leigh (16/12/09)

Thanks for the kind words fellas, no problems with me stopping brewing just yet...just need to find time again! A little annoyed with myself more than anything!

I have yet to check my taps Fents, have a CO2 leak I have to find first...

So do you get the picture that it just aint all working well at my place right now? A few weeks off over Xmas will hopefully sort it all out :chug:


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## beerDingo (16/12/09)

19. Fents - cream ale

SPEWING! This was a great beer out of the tap!!!
Had a sip, and was very dissapointed! Gave Dan a sip(I told him it was your cream ale), and he made a funny face...
Oh well next time... I'm making a cream ale tomorrow, if I get pilsner grain cracked tonight(and maybe a swim)!


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## Hutch (16/12/09)

Leigh said:


> Thanks for the kind words fellas, no problems with me stopping brewing just yet...just need to find time again! A little annoyed with myself more than anything!
> 
> I have yet to check my taps Fents, have a CO2 leak I have to find first...
> 
> So do you get the picture that it just aint all working well at my place right now? A few weeks off over Xmas will hopefully sort it all out :chug:


Hey Leigh, I know it's really dissapointing loosing a batch, even more so with the expense of trying a liquid yeast , but don't give up on the liquids with one bad experience. It's been said many times before, and I'm strongly of the opinion that you just can't get the same quality and complexity of flavours from dried yeast, despite their obvious convenience and simplicity. The key to liquids, IMHO, is to kick it off with a good sized starter (say 1-2Ltr) a few days before pitching into the brew. A stir-plate really helps too!

Hope you get your CO2 issues sorted, and back brewing again soon.


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## WarmBeer (16/12/09)

*9. Leigh - Dusseldorf Alt*

Sorry mate, was all vinegar and band-aids


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## manticle (17/12/09)

#23: Brewmeister70: Ringwood Special Bitter

Pours with a tight white head that thins.

Colour is golden/amber, slightly hazy

Aroma is malty with a slight hint of hop.

Malty flavours with a hint of toffee/caramel. Lingering subtle bitterness which nicely balances out that malt and caramel. Full bodied, medium-low carbonation which suits perfectly. 

Not much more to say except this is a really nice beer. I'm going to attempt to culture the yeast from the bottle. As much my personal preference for malty styles of ale as anything else but I'd probably rate the russian imperial stout and this as my favourites of the swap so far.

I'll be checking the recipe thread for this one.


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## Brewmeister70 (17/12/09)

I'm glad you enjoyed it Manticle. It was very experimental with the Belgian malts (as well as that weirdo oat crystal malt) and a yeast I'd never tried in my beers but was good out of the keg. 

It's also good that you got to it after the green apple character has subsided because mine in the swap bottle tasted a week ago was very different to the kegged version, which I understand has been a problem for bottles filled over the hot nights of the swap period. 

If you were a fan of this, Hutch gave me some great feedback in recipe development as he knows this yeast and style well. Maybe PM him for some more input?

Cheers,

:icon_cheers:


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## manticle (18/12/09)

#7: Brendo: Galaxy pale ale

I'm not sure if this is the same beer we brewed at the ABBD.

Pours with a tight white head, dissipates to thin lacing which remains.

Colour - amber/brown. Good clarity.

Slight hop aroma with maltiness underneath. Light toffee notes.

Medium carbonation, sherberty mouthfeel, nice body. Rich maltiness with fruitiness from the hops, light lingering bitterness.

Seems really well balanced to me. More malt as it warms. There's a slight tang of something at the end of the palate as it warms up though - not sure what that is. One of those things that's so subtle you wonder if it's your imagination which it well might be. If no other brewer picks it up it probably is. Otherwise delicious.

I have my last bottle of ABBD galaxy saved as the phenolics seemed to dissipate with time so if there's any of yours and SJ's left we should do that comparative tasting. Obviously I'll bring some more successful beers along as well.


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## WarmBeer (18/12/09)

7: Brendo: Galaxy pale ale

As above, with regard to the taste and smell. I'm not a big fan of Galaxy, but it's not as "in your face" as some beers I've tried.

Saying that, I find the body, and maltiness, a little too heavy. I still think it's a good beer, but I'd be looking for something a little lighter for a casual Friday night drink.

( B ) Thanks, Brendo

Edit: Just read your recipe, and I guess the reason I'm not getting as much overt passionfruit on the nose is yours is mostly a 20 min addition or more.


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## seemax (18/12/09)

Been too busy to take detailed notes, but in summary...

#7 - Good beer but was also expecting a more "in your face" fruitiness.

#5 - 4*'s Viet Lager hit the spot on a hot day. Excellent replication of the "style".

#24 - WW's summer ale has been one of my faves.... do you have any left to perhaps swap with ?? 

#15 - One of the better weizens I've tried recently, nice and subtle... low on phelonics.

#10 - Excellent porter, went very quickly!!

#19 - cream ale... serious vinegar action.. sorry (not that I can talk)

#17a - mid range IPA, good hop bite, decent maltiness... but too fruity for me (S-04 yeah?)


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## brendo (18/12/09)

Thanks Manticle - it is the same recipe, but I tricked up the hops a little. 

It is interesting as the kegged version is more in your face with the hop profile and more aroma too - I will have to try another bottle shortly. 

As for the taste - it is not your imagination - I believe it is a character of the galaxy hops. It is almost green apple - but definitely not acetylaldehyde but rather something I find consistently with the hop regardless of age and conditioning of the beer. 

Either way - glad you enjoyed it and def up for the comparison at some stage.

Cheers

brendo


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## manticle (18/12/09)

Being generally keener on malt than a whack in the face with a hop boot, I was not disappointed.


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## Fourstar (18/12/09)

17a. Zebba - "Redcoats" IPA

Thick moussy head, hazy copper to gold in appearance
*Score:1.5/3*

soapy phenolics, light tin/metal aroma, some malt, not much else.
*Score:4/12*

Metallic and soapy palate, some sweet malt present, smooth botterness but cannot get past the unfortunate infection. Hop characteristics are too masked by the off flavours, sorry. Finish is somewhat 'clean'
*Score: 7/20*

Thin to moderate mody, high carbonation, some hop astringency in the finish.
*Score: 2/5*

An unfortunate infection has ruined this beer. I used to have a similar infection profile w/long term bottle storage that i can only put down to not thoroughly cleaning and sanitising my bottles/equiptment at this stage. I will assume its an issue with your bottling process. In future, ensue all equiptment is thoroughly cleaned and sanisied to avoid this bottle infection. I had a perception of the recipe somwbhat in the flavour. The unfortunate issue is this kind of infection strips all of the qualities of this beer and its hard to pick the key features of an IPA thru this problem. I hope this feedback helps for future bottling.
*Score: 2/10*

*Overall 16.5/50*


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## brendo (18/12/09)

Yeah I know what you mean Manticle - just interesting how the hops aren't as prominent in the bottle when compared to a keg.


----------



## chris.taylor.98 (18/12/09)

*7. Brendo - Galaxy Amber Ale*

Aroma 7/12

Citrus, piney hop

Some background malt, but expect more for an amber ale

No esters


Apperance 3/3

Deep gold, persistant off white head, clear


Flavour 14/20

Dominant hop flavour same as aroma, citrus piney with a hint of passionfruit.

Medium bitterness, very balanced

Bready malt sweetness but not out of balance with hops, would expect more for this style

Dry finish

Clean, with no noticable fruity esters


Mouthfill 4/5

Medium to full bodied, great finish with loads of hop oil to help it slide down the pallate.


Overall Impression 7/10

Great beer Brendo. Really enjoyed it. For me this came across a lot more like an APA them an AAA. Think it needs a bit more pale crystal to try and break through the high hopping rate. 


35/50


----------



## brendo (19/12/09)

Thanks Chris - glad you enjoyed it mate. I agree with you - I would put it at the top end of the scale for an APA rather than an amber. 

Cheers

brendo


----------



## zebba (19/12/09)

seemax said:


> #17a - mid range IPA, good hop bite, decent maltiness... but too fruity for me (S-04 yeah?)


Yes



> An unfortunate infection has ruined this beer. I used to have a similar infection profile w/long term bottle storage that i can only put down to not thoroughly cleaning and sanitising my bottles/equiptment at this stage. I will assume its an issue with your bottling process. In future, ensue all equiptment is thoroughly cleaned and sanisied to avoid this bottle infection. I had a perception of the recipe somwbhat in the flavour. The unfortunate issue is this kind of infection strips all of the qualities of this beer and its hard to pick the key features of an IPA thru this problem. I hope this feedback helps for future bottling.


Took that advice after Kleiny had the same problem. Last bottling run involved sodium perc, a power drill and bottlebrush, then idophur. Fingers crossed.

And my apologies.


----------



## notung (20/12/09)

12. Hairofthedog - imperial stout -

This beer is black as the ace of spades with a creamy yet quickly dissipating head.

Aroma-wise I got a strong sensation of burnt licorice-flavoured ice cream. Don't get the wrong idea though - it is very pleasant!

The first thing that hit me when I sipped this beer was the full body and treacly sweet taste. It is slightly roasty. There are beautiful malt notes in this brew. A possible downfall may be that I hoped for slightly more malt complexity but I'm not sure if this is a requirement of an imperial stout in style guidelines or whatever. I think my favourite thing about this beer is the subtle hopping. I liked how you swallow your sip and as the sweetness fades the hops colonise your palate in a gentle yet overt way.

Overall this has been my favourite beer of the swap so far. I just love these kind of beers, and this particular one was delicious. I enjoyed it with chocolate for dessert, then drank the leftovers as I brewed this afternoon. HOTD, can you tell us more about the recipe? Was it an extract brew or all grain? What hops are they? How long have you been aging this?

Thanks a lot! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Wonderwoman (20/12/09)

seemax said:


> #24 - WW's summer ale has been one of my faves.... do you have any left to perhaps swap with ??



thanks! unfortunately none left at the moment (2 other batches all gone after my birthday party last weekend), but I should have more on tap about mid-jan... your welcome to come over for a sample then and to admire my keg setup


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## Fents (20/12/09)

notung said:


> How long have you been aging this?



hahaha probably about 5 years knowing him.. :lol:


----------



## hairofthedog (20/12/09)

24 WW summer ale 

top job WW really enjoyed this beer not a lot of malt flavor but a awesome hop combo summers day winner :icon_cheers:


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## hairofthedog (20/12/09)

notung said:


> 12. Hairofthedog - imperial stout -
> 
> This beer is black as the ace of spades with a creamy yet quickly dissipating head.
> 
> ...




thanks for the kind review notung yeah it is all grain its been aged about 12 months the hops are green bullet & if i can find the recipe ill post it


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## chris.taylor.98 (20/12/09)

*12. Hairofthedog - imperial stout*

Oh boy oh boy oh boy .. is it really true .. a RIS in the case swap :icon_drool2: .. it really must be xmas!!

Tons and tons of roast followed by molasses, liquorice all off the aroma.

Black, and opaque, small dark tan head.

Absolutely bucket-loads of roast with an appreciable malt backbone, perfectly balanced by the stout trademark bitterness, all smoothed over by appreciable amount of alcohol.

Think this is going to take me the rest of the night to get through, but a great follow up to the Imperial Kolsch I had early .. maybe this is going to be an early night 

Fantastic beer Hairofthedog. Hard to see anyone topping it from here (and yes this would have to be one of my favorite styles)


----------



## hairofthedog (21/12/09)

thanks heaps for the great review chris :icon_cheers:


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## zebba (21/12/09)

13. Notung - bloodorange honey hefeweizen

Mine had almost no carbonation at all (I did crack it and re-seal after your warning). Shame, as with carbonation I would have loved this. I've had very little experience with this style, but I can see that there is stuff here I'd like, but it needs carb. Some nice flavours there - can really taste the honey (in a good way). I think Chris Taylor said it right earlier when he said with a little tweaking we'd have a winner.


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## notung (21/12/09)

Zebba said:


> 13. Notung - bloodorange honey hefeweizen
> 
> Mine had almost no carbonation at all (I did crack it and re-seal after your warning). Shame, as with carbonation I would have loved this. I've had very little experience with this style, but I can see that there is stuff here I'd like, but it needs carb. Some nice flavours there - can really taste the honey (in a good way). I think Chris Taylor said it right earlier when he said with a little tweaking we'd have a winner.



Thanks heaps for the feedback Zebba. I have noticed the same thing with my bottles of the hefe. Listen, I think I'm never going to much around with bulk priming again. It has failed me bad!!! I agree that the honey is present. A bit lighter in the body and much higher carbonation for the next one. Cheers.


----------



## chris.taylor.98 (21/12/09)

*17. Supra Jim - American Pale Ale*
*Aroma 7/12*

Some hops, but fairly low level. Citrus, piney.

Sweet malt, (doughy bready)

No noticeable yeast esters.


*Appearance 2/3*

Very slight haze, gold colour, persistent white head, some lacing.

*Flavour 13/20*

Pleasant but somewhat restrained hop character, with good supporting malt. Slight phenolic most probably hop derived.

Slight harshness in the finish ( could be fermentation issue maybe, or hops still needing some time to age a bit )

Low to moderate bitterness

Dry with slightly harsh finish.

*Mouth feel 3/5*

Medium body

Medium to high carbonation (good for this style)

Noticeable alcohol


*Overall Impression 7/10*

Interesting choice of hops, and very easy drinking. More towards the lawn mower end for this style (personally how I prefer them) but would not stand out in a competition (I judge APAs at Beerfest last year). If you want to brew this style for comps I would add some hop tea (french press) hops to add a bit more kick on the flavour aroma side. Also has the benefit of smoothing out the dry finish a bit. The only downside is that you may lose a bit on the clarity, but nothing a bit of settling time won't clear up.

Some minor technical faults. Finished a tad too dry, which also lends a little harshness.

No fermentation issues, very clean.

Overall very refreshing, perfect for a summers evening.

*32/50*


----------



## Hutch (21/12/09)

*7. Brendo - Galaxy Amber Ale*

Not sure if I had a different beer, but I found this to be quite dark (certainly the dark end of amber), with little hop aroma. Certainly was expecting a lot more prominance from the Galaxy, however it was quite lacking.
Carb and head retention both excellent, some definite chocolate malt character, and a little caramel as well. In the finish, I got a quite distinct sour/mineral flavour, particularly noticable as it warmed. It reminded me of the taste of a yeast starter with a liberal dose of yeast nutrient. I wonder if this has anything to do with the 2tbsp of 5.2pH stabiliser? Seems like a lot to have used with Melbourne water. I recall at ANHC the 5star rep talking about the likelyhood of tasting it if it were used at the recommended dose (1tsp per 20 Ltrs) with soft water.

Sorry Brendo - I'm being brutally honest, and just taking a guess here - not sure if this is what I'm tasting in your beer.
On the positive, there were certainly no adverse fermentation issues to note, it was well balanced and nicely presented, though I found it somewhat hard to get past the mineral aftertaste.
Cheers,
Hutch.


----------



## Hutch (22/12/09)

*2. Maple - Rye IPA*

It's a Rye-volution! Lovely IPA Dave.
Abundent US C-hops, nice sweet malt character, great lingering bitterness, and very restrained higher alcohols. Exceptionally well made, I absolutely love the hop combination - I will definitely be hunting down this recipe! Probably the best swap beer for me so far. 
Stellar!
Hutch.


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## Supra-Jim (22/12/09)

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the feedback on the beer. I thought the hop aroma/flavour could be bumped a bit too, next time i make this I think i'll be increasing the flame out addition and probably giving it a little dry hop late in the fermenter.

Now some feedback of my own:

Chris Taylor - English Pale

I really enjoyed this beer, poured a lovely coppery colour with a good thick head that lasted quite well. Realy nice big malty hit with good amount of earthy hop flavours. 

Don Mateo - Hefeweizen

Great wheat beer here Don, nicely restrained phenolics (i really don't like banana flavours in wheat beers and this had none!! so i was happy!!). Carb was high and really good, poured a nice thick head, that slowly dissipated.

Cheers SJ


----------



## gava (22/12/09)

SuperJim,

brought your beer into work to have on a friday afternoon with my work mate... LOVED IT!!! this'll be put into my brew rounds for sure.... cheers.



Supra-Jim said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback on the beer. I thought the hop aroma/flavour could be bumped a bit too, next time i make this I think i'll be increasing the flame out addition and probably giving it a little dry hop late in the fermenter.
> 
> ...


----------



## brendo (22/12/09)

Hutch said:


> *7. Brendo - Galaxy Amber Ale*
> 
> Not sure if I had a different beer, but I found this to be quite dark (certainly the dark end of amber), with little hop aroma. Certainly was expecting a lot more prominance from the Galaxy, however it was quite lacking.
> Carb and head retention both excellent, some definite chocolate malt character, and a little caramel as well. In the finish, I got a quite distinct sour/mineral flavour, particularly noticable as it warmed. It reminded me of the taste of a yeast starter with a liberal dose of yeast nutrient. I wonder if this has anything to do with the 2tbsp of 5.2pH stabiliser? Seems like a lot to have used with Melbourne water. I recall at ANHC the 5star rep talking about the likelyhood of tasting it if it were used at the recommended dose (1tsp per 20 Ltrs) with soft water.
> ...



no need to apologise mate - honesty is what it is all about. As far as the 5.2 goes it was used at the correct rate given that it was a double batch - so not sure about that one. Was maybe a little heavy handed with other water treatments. Will be tasting it again tonight and keep an eye out for it. 

Had a bottle on the weekend and it was still pretty hoppy - maybe yours was a dud bottle. Either way - sorry mate. 

Brendo


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## Hutch (22/12/09)

brendo said:


> no need to apologise mate - honesty is what it is all about. As far as the 5.2 goes it was used at the correct rate given that it was a double batch - so not sure about that one. Was maybe a little heavy handed with other water treatments. Will be tasting it again tonight and keep an eye out for it.
> 
> Had a bottle on the weekend and it was still pretty hoppy - maybe yours was a dud bottle. Either way - sorry mate.
> 
> Brendo


The recipe certainly looks the goods, and I'm a big fan of Galaxy. 
As for water modification, I've used the 5.2 product in a couple of brews, though at a very low rate (something like 1 teaspoon per 20Ltrs), and don't think it imparted any noticable flavours. This small amount seemed to easily maintain the right mash pH (pale beers typically).

These days I just go with the few grams of CaCl and CaSO4, as you've done, to get the Ca into the mash, and reduced the pH.


----------



## Supra-Jim (22/12/09)

Thanks Gava,

Glad to hear you enjoyed it.

Cheers SJ


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## brendo (22/12/09)

Hutch said:


> The recipe certainly looks the goods, and I'm a big fan of Galaxy.
> As for water modification, I've used the 5.2 product in a couple of brews, though at a very low rate (something like 1 teaspoon per 20Ltrs), and don't think it imparted any noticable flavours. This small amount seemed to easily maintain the right mash pH (pale beers typically).
> 
> These days I just go with the few grams of CaCl and CaSO4, as you've done, to get the Ca into the mash, and reduced the pH.



Thanks mate... a PH meter or similar is on the horizon to be added to next year's brewing routine.

Cheers,

Brendo


----------



## beerDingo (22/12/09)

OK, been a bit of a slacker with reviews. Tried a couple with another swapper, but was a bit drunk and was a while ago, so will wait till I try them again out of my swap.

Otherwise had 4*, and enjoyed it. Don't have the skilz to add anything more than others have. But seemed like a session beer. 

Notung - bloodorange honey hefeweizen - enjoyed this beer. Didn't really notice much in the way of blood orange, and honey, would probably up the quantities if you want these to shine (but not needed imo). Only problem with it was that it needed more carbonation. (thinking I read that 4* let out some carb <_< , oh well, saved a "possible" bottle bomb))

I reckon I may have tried at least 1 more, but can't remember...


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## Fourstar (22/12/09)

beerDingo said:


> Only problem with it was that it needed more carbonation. (thinking I read that 4* let out some carb <_< , oh well, saved a "possible" bottle bomb))



I had mine when i resealed them all and they all let out a marginal fizz like they where not really carbed. It was low on carbonation when i had it so i will assume it has not done much on the carbonation front since then anyway. May have been a dodgy bulk prime.


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## beerDingo (22/12/09)

Fourstar said:


> I had mine when i resealed them all and they all let out a marginal fizz like they where not really carbed. It was low on carbonation when i had it so i will assume it has not done much on the carbonation front since then anyway. May have been a dodgy bulk prime.



All good mate!


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## chris.taylor.98 (22/12/09)

*23. Brewmeister70 - Ringwood Special Bitter

Aroma: 7/12*

Subtle malt and subdued hop aroma combines. Very evenly balanced.

Some fruity esters also subdued.

*Appearance 3/3*

Gold, clear with small with persistent head.

*Flavour 16/20*

Slightly sweet malt up front combines nicely with subtle hop flavour, perfectly finished balancing bitterness giving a dry impression and reloading the palate ready for the next mouthful.

Some subtle fruit esters to round it out.

It is amazing how this beer seems to come in a wave over the palate, seamlessly flowing from one area to the next.

As it warms up, the influence of the ringwood ale yeast is really starting to become more noticeable.

*
Mouthfeel 4/5*

Slight alcohol warmth

Low carbonation

Low to medium body


*Overall Impression 7/10*

I really like this beer, and am a great fan of the ringwood ale yeast. 

My only criticism as a special bitter is the subdued nature of the flavour and aroma hops. Maybe add some more late hops, or even a hop tea post primary fermentation to bring them to the forefront a bit more.

The hallmark of this example is balance, and it comes across as a fantastic session beer. 

*37/50*


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## hairofthedog (22/12/09)

hey chris would you be able to score my beer for me ? just intrested to see thanks mate


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## chris.taylor.98 (22/12/09)

hairofthedog said:


> hey chris would you be able to score my beer for me ? just intrested to see thanks mate




hmmm .. bit hard to do the detailed break down after the fact ( I'm not doing that for those did not put up their hand in the early posts ), but from memory last night, pretty sure it ticked all the boxes and then some.

Looks like you have navigated around most of the "traps" in this style. A lot of examples come out with a very high FG and end up very cloying. Another trap is not enough hops (especially bittering) to balance out all that malt.

If your one was in a comp would come down to splitting hairs against the other top entries. Would expect at least high 30's up to mid 40's depending on the variation in judges, serving order etc.


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## hairofthedog (22/12/09)

cheers chris ive still got a few bottles so might enter it somewhere


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## manticle (22/12/09)

Don't know if you saw my review but it was a cracking beer and I think you should chuck one in just for laughs.


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## chris.taylor.98 (22/12/09)

hairofthedog said:


> cheers chris ive still got a few bottles so might enter it somewhere



well only one way to find out ... I hear there is a good little comp coming up in Feb that might be able to accommodate you 

* big disclaimer, I take no responsibility for judges having a completely different opinion from me, and quite often they do  *


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## beerDingo (23/12/09)

ARRGG! I somehow closed the tab, and lost my post.

Had wonderwoman's summer ale. Nice arvo drinker. I'm not sure if I like Nelson Sauvon hops yet. The few beers that I've drunk with them, seem to be a little sour or something. However, you seemed to balance that out OK. After looking at the recipe thread, I see that it's k & b, so an even better job! Well done.

Then did a lucky dip and got HOD's Imperial Stout. Manticles description of the color was pretty spot on! I just kept thinking the word "epic" while drinking this. Nice beer. Must say, I put aside half of it to drink later in the night, as I needed to keg some stuff and didn't want it to blow my head off, and had the rest as a night cap. Nice one mate.


----------



## Brewmeister70 (23/12/09)

> My only criticism as a special bitter is the subdued nature of the flavour and aroma hops. Maybe add some more late hops, or even a hop tea post primary fermentation to bring them to the forefront a bit more.



Thanks for the review Chris. With so many things being new ingredients to me on this beer, I thought it might be a good idea to tone down the hop flavour and aroma so as to not drown out the malt character I was shooting for with the Ringwood yeast especially.

Hopefully, that's part of the reason it so balanced and sessionable but I expect it would not score too well in comp up against hoppier beers but I'm pleased with this one.


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## manticle (23/12/09)

#14: Sappas: Alt

Pours with a creamy white head which thins and remains.

Slightly murky deep orange/amber

Aroma is all malt (biscuits and bread)

Carbonation is mild (I prefer this).

Flavour is bready, slightly grainy (like I'm chewing grain or smelling the mash). No idea how to style that is but to my mind it's lovely. This is really fresh tasting beer.

No massive residual sweetness despite the maltiness. Very mild lingering bitterness, very little up front hoppiness. Medium - full body, full mouthfeel, aided by the low/medium carb.

Considering how far out from the swap you brewed this, I think you've created a great beer that you should think about brewing again. The only other alt I've tried was one from this swap which had an infection so my familiarity with it is next to none but judged purely as a beer, it's great.


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## hairofthedog (23/12/09)

6 CM2 Aussie Gold

considering im not a big fan of POR i really like this beer it has nice malt bitterness balance with a lager smooth mouthfeel & finish well done mate


----------



## seemax (23/12/09)

manticle said:


> #14: Sappas: Alt
> 
> Considering how far out from the swap you brewed this, I think you've created a great beer that you should think about brewing again. The only other alt I've tried was one from this swap which had an infection so my familiarity with it is next to none but judged purely as a beer, it's great.



Totally agree. I drank this without even reading which one it was, thoroughly enjoyed it, then was surprised when I went back to my printed list to see it was an "Alt". Last Altbier I tried was on tap in a microbrewery in Michigan, USA and it was very dark with coffee tones. Better read up on the style now!!


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## manticle (24/12/09)

seemax said:


> Totally agree. I drank this without even reading which one it was, thoroughly enjoyed it, then was surprised when I went back to my printed list to see it was an "Alt". Last Altbier I tried was on tap in a microbrewery in Michigan, USA and it was very dark with coffee tones. Better read up on the style now!!



I read the bjcp style guidelines (which I don't take as gospel) after drinking/reviewing and the Northern German Altbier section seemed to describe this beer fairly well.

#26: Kenlock: Bright Ale

I've done well. This is my last beer of the swap and I've remembered to review each one, drink out of a clean, rinsed glass and try each as my first beer (or second where I've tried two swap beers in one sitting) so I think I deserve a prize. Anyone who has left over swap beers should send them to me. 

I would also like a hat.

Anyway:

Pours with a fluffy head that very quickly dissipates to almost nothing.

Bright does not really describe it - this is very murky. Golden hue.

Aroma is fruit with a hint of grain/bready malt.

Carbonation is moderate, mouthfeel medium/full.

Flavour is mainly hop fruit, mildly citrus, not much lingering bitterness.

Quite an enjoyable beer - almost dessert like. I would suggest that it needs a touch more bitterness to balance the fruitiness and as with all hoppy-ish beers, maybe a bit more malt backbone to balance the hops. I enjoy this level of carbonation and mouthfeel. I guess being called 'bright' there's an expectation of clarity but this is not something that troubles me massively.

Cheers everyone for your offerings. I hope to drink your beers again in future and will be happy to offer some of mine in return.


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## Fents (27/12/09)

Maple first one out of the case for me and top beer! me, mick, troy and another mick all tasted it all agreed it was a top beer. nice start to the swap beers.


----------



## chris.taylor.98 (30/12/09)

*1. Kleiny - Munich Helles*

Clear to bright, golden colour, white head that did not perisit.

Very clean, subtle graininess in the aroma, some malt sweetness. No noticeable hops or esters.

Very subtle flavour showcasing malt grain, and very balanced. No esters or noticable hops. Slight perciptable malt character, possibly a little DMS . 

Thin body, with medium carbonation.

Some nitpicking points would be to add a little more body back in, and drop the DMS (note DMS is not my strong point, so could be something else. Was a very low level whatever it was, so pretty hard to be certain).

Overall very refreshing 

Appologies Klieny, but I cant be bothered with the scoresheet bizo in this heat ... lets just call it 35/50


----------



## Kleiny (30/12/09)

Thanks Chris

Dont be to bothered with the score sheets, im a bit sick of typing them up.

I have had some beers lately and have completed sheets for them but typing them all up will be a pain. I might just summerize them if i get a spare momment soon.

But some memmorable beers lately

Hair of the dog. This beer was just awesome i saved it for xmas day and was not dissapointed, roasty and complex with the blackest of hearts, my family could not believe i was drinking it, it was low on the carb but i didnt care. I had couple of other great beers that day Don de diu and Fringante and this beer stood up against those. Well done HOD.

Also i had an altbier and i think it was sappas and it was also a nice beer and went down extremely well. 

Kleiny


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## zebba (1/1/10)

23. Brewmeister70 - Ringwood Special Bitter
I _think_ it was this one. Label had gone and smuged, so I couldn't read it. Square white label on top? Anyway, nice beer. I started a bit cold, and didn't like it straight out of the fridge, but once it warmed up it turned into a nice one

12. Hairofthedog - imperial stout 
It took me a while to get into it, as I don't like stouts. But I soldiered on, and was rewarded amply. The beer was a meal on it's own, and fittingly is what I was sucking down come midnight. Really enjoyed it, even though it's not my style of beer. Once I got over the roasted/coffee flavours, there was heaps of good stuff there for the tasting. Thanks for sharing, as it tasted like a lot of time and effort went into making it


----------



## notung (1/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> I had mine when i resealed them all and they all let out a marginal fizz like they where not really carbed. It was low on carbonation when i had it so i will assume it has not done much on the carbonation front since then anyway. May have been a dodgy bulk prime.



Think you're right there Fourstar. I had experimented with bulk priming, stirring in priming as a syrup VS not stirring. I just think I won't bother anymore. How difficult is it really to prime individual bottles?


----------



## Fourstar (1/1/10)

notung said:


> Think you're right there Fourstar. I had experimented with bulk priming, stirring in priming as a syrup VS not stirring. I just think I won't bother anymore. How difficult is it really to prime individual bottles?



spare fermentor? Just rack from fermentor to fermentor with your bulk prime solution in the target fermentor then bottle away.


----------



## Maple (2/1/10)

Fents said:


> Maple first one out of the case for me and top beer! me, mick, troy and another mick all tasted it all agreed it was a top beer. nice start to the swap beers.


Cheers Fents, glad ya'll liked it.


----------



## hairofthedog (2/1/10)

thanks for your kind works Kleiny really glad you enjoyed it :icon_cheers:


----------



## chris.taylor.98 (2/1/10)

*10. Manticle: Robust Porter*

The short summary - kick arse Robust Porter Manticle

The slightly longer version:

*Aroma - 10/12*

Got the dark more astringent malts coming through right off the bat with some crystal to balance it out. No fruity esters, no appreciable hops.

*Appearance - 3/3*

Very clear with a tan head, copper to brown colour

*Flavour - 17/20*

Dry, with very prominent dark malt profile.

No fruity esters.

Well balanced between bitterness and malt sweetness, astringency from the dark malts really helping here.

*Mouthfeel - 3/5*

Medium body, medium carbonation, no noticeable alcohol.

*Overall Impression 8/10*

Very fine drinkable example of style with assertive dark malt character ( just the way I like them :icon_cheers: )

Only suggestions would be to up the body a bit and drop the carbonation a tad.

No appreciable faults and superbly balanced.

*41/50*


----------



## manticle (2/1/10)

Cheers chris.

I just bottled another version of this about 10 days ago. Tried to mash a couple of degrees hotter and cut back on the carb a tad. Also used Irish ale yeast instead of the whitbread. It certainly improves a bit with ageing but the sample I tried last night was definitely in the ballpark. If she still tastes good in February I'll enter her into my first competition (beerfest).

Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the feedback and scores.


----------



## Leigh (2/1/10)

OK, back into the case swap brews...

12. Hairofthedog - imperial stout 

Bloody beautiful beer mate, just the right amount of roasted maltiness. This recipe is going straight to the pool room!


----------



## Fourstar (4/1/10)

Just out of interest, Kleiny, Zeb, Mants and WarmBeer how did your TTL turnout? Im tempted to enter my cut into Vicbrew as a Best Bitter. I ended up knocking back the ABV as mine attenuated well and ended up at 5.6%  . I rolled it back with boiled cooled water to make it more to style.

Hop character is bitter/aggressive, slightly floral/earthy nose and palate. It has a sweet and light caramel malt flavour and aroma with a slightly sweet alcohol note. Great creamyness under low carb once it warms to around 15deg~. WarmBeer can concur how mine turned out and im interested to know how they went.

(sorry WB, ive yet to try yours so i'll pop it into the fridge tonight for a side by side) 

So, offer your comparisons!


----------



## Kleiny (4/1/10)

Mine is sitting in a keg waiting for tap space so i dont really know how it tastes other than it was good out of the fermenter, should be able to tell in the next couple of weeks or days depending on drinking


----------



## WarmBeer (4/1/10)

Mine's turned out to be a lovely beer, but a little too sweet. I put that down to the 1968 being a pretty low attenuator, and only getting the FG down to 1014 (or maybe 1016, can't remember).

Funnily enough, was talking to Zebba about it today, as his has dropped completely bright, and mine looks more like milky yarra-water. Admittedly, he both polyclar'ed and gelatined his, and I just went "meh" straight into the bottle.

Have bought myself a bottle of the real stuff, and am planning on doing a side-by-side taste and smell comparison some time this week.


----------



## zebba (4/1/10)

More tastings...

Brendos Galaxy Amber Ale
I _really _liked this one. Dunno what else to say. I liked the malt, I liked the hops. Nothing about it I didn't like. Wish I had a few more so I could have made an afternoon with it instead of sharing half the bloody thing with my brother...


Fourstar - on the TTLL... Firstly, a story.

My cube had a heap of break material and hop sludge in it. Heaps. So this was of some concern, as I didn't know if that was a good thing, bad thing, or inconsequential thing. Not knowing, I just tipped it all in the fermenter.

Next up, I pitched some 1968 I'd cultured up from a slurry Warmbeer gave me and pitched her in. Seal, and chuck in fermenting fridge.

Now, at this stage I didn't have a working tempmate, but it wasn't too big a concern as the lowest setting on the fridge was keeping my brew at just under 18 degrees. Unfortunately for me, I didn't have it on that setting. I check the next morning, and the temp strip is showing colder then the temp strip shows, and the fermenter was icy to the touch. Oops! Change fridge setting, next day it's reading a much more healthy temp and there is small fermentation signs, and these small signs continued throughout fermentation - never got a big krausen, just a tiny one.

Fermentation then appears finished, but couldn't check as a quick trip to the brewing cupboard reveals broken glass all over the floor. FFS. Yell at wife for a bit for breaking _another _hydrometer, then think "bah, I'll bottle - it tastes done". So I put fridge to coldest setting to crash chill, throw in some finings (polyclar + gelatine - OTT maybe, but I thought with all that break material I'd go OTT).

Bottling day comes, i do double duty cleaning everything, then pull the fermenter out. Check the contents - it's not beer, it's beer slurry. Ice. Lots of ice. Oh ffs, can anything else go wrong?

I draw a sample, and taste. Alcohol warmth, malt and a sh1tload of mandarin flavour. Delicious! _Really _delicious. "Hot damn!", I think, adding "bastardised eisbock" to the list of beers to brew (to be done to the TTLL recipe, frozen and racked off the ice), but decide that I need to finish this one how it was supposed to be started so let the ice melt then bottle. Didn't bulk prime, just used the old fashioned measuring spoons, but measured less then usual in an extremely scientific manner (i.e. fill the measurer, then tip a little out, then tip the rest in the bottle).

2 weeks later, as usual, I can't wait any longer. Plus, I'm a little concerned that with the freezing there may be problems carbing. Concern unfounded. It's overcarbed... Not gusher, no pressing fear of bottlebombs, but it's overcarbed...

The overcarb really takes away from it, and it's a shame, cause behind the fizz there is a nice beer waiting to be found. Sigh. Still, no action yet. I think "could just be the one bottle and a mixup priming the bottles". Wait a week, try the next one. Same problem - but it's no worse, so bottlebomb fear becomes even less pressing.

Anyway. It's still nice - I'll just let some pressure out and re-cap. Compared to the real deal, which I had Saturday night, I can't really say 'cause of the carb issue. Colour wise it's a lot paler. Aroma is similar, althogh stronger on mine (as would be expected though).

Hopefully a re-seal will fix the carb issue and reveal a quite drinkable beer.

Oh, and mine is bright. Real bright. 1968 + polyclar + gelatine + accidental freeze = puts the wifes diamonds to shame. My concern over all that break material and hop sludge was, it seems, completely unnecessary.


----------



## manticle (4/1/10)

Mine was fermented using 1099 whitbread slurry. Dropped to something around 1012 I think. As per usual, transferred to secondary about 1020, left to FG then left a further few days (normally 3-7 but can't remember exactly), then crash chill for 2 days, fine and polyclar and leave for another 3 at 2 deg.

I would agree with: 'slightly floral/earthy nose and palate. It has a sweet and light caramel malt flavour and aroma with a slightly sweet alcohol note. Great creamyness under low carb once it warms to around 15deg~. '

There is a very mild lingering bitterness - wouldn't describe it as aggressive. Warmbeer gave me one of his to try. From memory it was a little murkier (mine is quite bright although not filter bright - gelatin and polyclar and cc) and a little sweeter but otherwise pretty similar. I forgot to trade it with one of mine because I'm dumb.

I've been enjoying it and only have a few bottles left (although a couple have been put away to see what a month or two more does to them). Gave a couple away at Christmas too. I would probably prefer more bitterness (just a touch) to offset some of the sweetness and I can definitely taste the caramalisation effect (something I like and do to my Porter and other English darker styles).

Never tried the commercial version so I can't compare.


----------



## Fourstar (4/1/10)

manticle said:


> There is a very mild lingering bitterness - wouldn't describe it as aggressive.



I may have gained a few extra IBU points as i think Warm Beer put a little more cube hops into mine. Either way the bitterness may have something todo with the strain i have used, 1272 American Ale II :lol: ! More like "Tom Brady Landlord".


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## WarmBeer (4/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> I may have gained a few extra IBU points as i think Warm Beer put a little more cube hops into mine.


What, you don't agree with my entirely scientific "A little pinch for cube A, hic, a little pinch for cube B, whoops slipped, hic, a little more for cube B" hop distribution method?


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## Fourstar (4/1/10)

WarmBeer said:


> What, you don't agree with my entirely scientific "A little pinch for cube A, hic, a little pinch for cube B, whoops slipped, hic, a little more for cube B" hop distribution method?



Nope i do agree! I'm quite a fan of how mine has turned out, especially after thinning it out a little.


----------



## Fourstar (4/1/10)

Ok so im doing the side by side with mine and WB TTL and the comparisons are not looking good at this stage... h34r: 

Fourstar | Warmbeer

Appearance: straw/gold, clear with a slight haze, low head retention | It poured with a moussy head and holds well, deep gold with a thick head stand. 

Aroma: Malty sweet with light herbal/earthy hops | trong clove/bubblegum/lychee syrup aromas and laced with an underlying pepperyness

Flavour: Doughy, malty sweet with some light suggary toffee. Finishes with some grain huskiness and balanced well with an assertive bitterness. Some earthy hop flavour present | Bubblegum/clove flavours dominate the malt which is subdued sweet and some lingering bitterness in the finish. Hop falvour is maksed by a pepperyness. Aftertaste is a bready maltiness.

Mouthfeel: Moderate body with low to moderate carbonation, malty creminess in the finish | high carbonation, moderate body, dry finish.

Overall: English bitter lacking fruitiness | German Weisen or Belgian Pale/Witbier??!


Hmmm, are you sure you used 1968 and not 3068 by accident or do i have a infected bottle or the wrong beer?!?!? The yeast flavour profile is like a cross between a german weizen and a belgian tripel. The appearance is a little disconcerting and true to 3068 with poor floculation as its throwing a dense yeast haze. ive stored it upright since you gave it to me and chilled for 3.5 hours~.

Either we have a 3068 culture here, the wrong beer or the unfortunate beginnings of an infection  maybe that wild yeast issue you had with the lactic beer you produced at the swap??!? If it is, store it away and enter into vicbrew! it tastes great but not an best bitter at this stage. The bubblegum/lychee is really tasty whatever it is! Ive been begging for a Weisen or something yeasty for a while now and its hitting the spot either way! :beer:


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## WarmBeer (4/1/10)

Definitely 1968, as I've never purchased a 3068, or any other Weisen yeast for that matter.

Have you tried my ESB from the case swap? It was fermented with exactly the same generation (2nd) yeast that was used for that.

Can you check the lid? If it is a number '23', then that is the right beer.

Funny, as I have been getting very cloudy beers the last 3 batches, including a very simple IPA fermented with US-05. I just passed it off as being due to making the move to BIAB, which leaves more residue. 
i have usually gotten very bright beers out of this yeast.

Was just about to pitch Manticle's Robust Porter, but might swap fermenters, just in case.


----------



## Fourstar (4/1/10)

WarmBeer said:


> Definitely 1968, as I've never purchased a 3068, or any other Weisen yeast for that matter.
> Have you tried my ESB from the case swap? It was fermented with exactly the same generation (2nd) yeast that was used for that.
> Can you check the lid? If it is a number '23', then that is the right beer.
> Funny, as I have been getting very cloudy beers the last 3 batches, including a very simple IPA fermented with US-05. I just passed it off as being due to making the move to BIAB, which leaves more residue.
> ...



Hmmm... Well from my experience its not the results of 1968 as it usually yields uber malty clean sweet fruity ales and just checked and its a '23'. 

Hmm.. looks like something on your cold side might be an issue as it didnt have the profile of 1968. See how mants porter goes in another fermenter as you noted. Have you tested any bottles of the TTL? I might just have a dodgy one.


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## kenlock (4/1/10)

manticle said:


> I read the bjcp style guidelines (which I don't take as gospel) after drinking/reviewing and the Northern German Altbier section seemed to describe this beer fairly well.
> 
> #26: Kenlock: Bright Ale
> 
> ...



Thanks for your review Manticle. I'm glad it has turned into a drinkable beer.

I'm really enjoying the tasting of everyone's beers. Especially the criteria and language used to described characteristics. 

Please keep it up guys. I'm learning so much with each critic. I know it's more effort, but it gives us less learned fellowes so much information. And a rapid increase in knowledge. Consequently, I've been making my own notes on each beer. Making comparisions to my tasting and to yours (largely Manticle - Cheers mate).

Cheers Ken


----------



## Fourstar (4/1/10)

*8. Chris Taylor - Pale Yarra (Australian/English pale ale)*

*Aroma:* fruity yeast profile, some light malt character, some bubblegum peppery aromas present. Some light metallic aromas noticable.

*Score: 7/12*


*Appearance:* amber to copper in appearance, bright, beautiful cream headstand and great carbonation.

*Score: 3/3*

*
Flavour:* Strong peppery fruitiness upfront with a sweet doughy maltiness continuing. Some sweet crystal malt flavours noticable giving some creaminess. Bitterness is moderate and lingering in the finish with a strong fruity yeast profile. finish is full and lingering

*Score 13/20 *


*Mouthfeel:* sharp dry carboantion, moderate body and finishes full.

*Score: 3/5*


*Overall:* Malty and yeast fruity ale, sweet maltiness i somewhat subdued by the yeast characteristics. May have a little too much crystal malt to be an aussie pale. Unfortunatly it does not have the sessionability of an Aussie pale due to the strong yeast profile which can be controlled by pitching rates and temperatature. other tahn taht a well crafted beer.

*Score: 6/10

Total: 32/50*


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## WarmBeer (4/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> Hmm.. looks like something on your cold side might be an issue as it didnt have the profile of 1968. See how mants porter goes in another fermenter as you noted. Have you tested any bottles of the TTL? I might just have a dodgy one.



Ok, have PBW'ed the fermenting fridge, am going to use my other fermenter, and plan on ditching the remaining 1968 slurry I still have in the fridge, along with my old fermenter (23 brews is a decent wicket)

Fourstar, if you haven't already, can you give my case swap ESB a tasting tomorrow? If it is substantially different to the TTLL you had tonight, we might be able to put it down to a mild infection, as I get a similar yeast profile in the ESB as the TTLL. The cloudiness is still a concern, though.

Any other guys out there tried the # 11 and found it tasting "weisen-ey"?


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## Fourstar (4/1/10)

WarmBeer said:


> Fourstar, if you haven't already, can you give my case swap ESB a tasting tomorrow? If it is substantially different to the TTLL you had tonight, we might be able to put it down to a mild infection, as I get a similar yeast profile in the ESB as the TTLL. The cloudiness is still a concern, though.
> Any other guys out there tried the # 11 and found it tasting "weisen-ey"?



Will do, i'll report tomorrow.


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## chris.taylor.98 (5/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> *8. Chris Taylor - Pale Yarra (Australian/English pale ale)*
> 
> *Aroma:* fruity yeast profile, some light malt character, some bubblegum peppery aromas present. Some light metallic aromas noticable.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the feedback fourstar, I think its become more and more english every day. Especially with the crystal malt starting to come through.


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## chris.taylor.98 (5/1/10)

*6. CM2 - Aussie Gold Digger Lager*

Slight malt and hop character coming through the aroma, almost getting a straw like aroma from the malt.

No esters.

Clear golden colour with fast dissipating white head.

Flavour pretty similar with a slight bit of DMS.

Alcohol quite noticeable and perhaps a little too assertive.

Very dry slightly harsh finish accentuating the hop bitterness.

Medium to low body, medium carbonation.

Seems to get a bit softer as it warms up.

Is a bit of a heavy hitter, and might improve a with a little less attenuation. (what was the FG out of interest?)

Reasonably clean, but have to say these higher alcohol pale lagers are not really my cup of tea, so take this review with a grain of salt.


----------



## Leigh (6/1/10)

These were over the last few days, so detail is fading...

2. Maple - Rye IPA 

Love the label. Nice light nose, poured with around 3/4 inch of head that hung around as a thin 1-2mm head to the last mouthfull. Great mouthfeel and very smooth Rye, bitterness was well balanced. Love the label. I'd give it a 8/10 (the beer that is)


13. Notung - bloodorange honey hefeweizen - drink 7 December or after - POSSIBLE BOTTLE BOMB BEWARE!

Mine was flat, had to pour from 6 inches above the glass to get any froth. That aside, a great balanced hefe (which i don't usually like). I'd give it 7/10/. Very drinkable.


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## Maple (6/1/10)

Leigh said:


> These were over the last few days, so detail is fading...
> 
> 2. Maple - Rye IPA
> 
> Love the label. Nice light nose, poured with around 3/4 inch of head that hung around as a thin 1-2mm head to the last mouthfull. Great mouthfeel and very smooth Rye, bitterness was well balanced. Love the label. I'd give it a 8/10 (the beer that is)


Yeah yeah, but did you like the label? Glad you enjoyed it ( the beer that is)


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## beerDingo (6/1/10)

17b. Supra-Jim - APA
Loved this beer!! Favourite so far. Only real problem was that it had NO aroma. Then I tasted, and it was awsome! Nice malt backbone with lots of fresh hop flavor :icon_drool2: . Was dissapointed once it was finished. Could happily have a session on these. Well done!!! 

9. Leigh - Dusseldorf Alt
Had a sip, screwed up my face, then had another to double check, and then tipped it. Sorry mate, pitty about this.

20. Gava - Golden Ale 
Not sure if I'm a fan of golden ales. Had some micro golden's that I've not been real keen on too. I was getting a little 'green apple' falvour, but wasn't sure if that was just the summer ale part of it though. I did drink the whole thing, and ended up a bit happier than I've been with some commercial variety's that I've tried. So take this with a grain of salt, as I'm not real keen on the style. edit: Oh, and the bottle wasn't filled to the top.

Oh, and Leigh reminded me how good the label on Maples beer was! Want to send me another one now that I've got my hop taste buds back on again? h34r:


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## gava (7/1/10)

beerDingo said:


> 20. Gava - Golden Ale
> edit: Oh, and the bottle wasn't filled to the top.



Last time I used bottles they were glass and well lets just say I finished with less than I started.. First time using the PET because I keg now so wasn't sure what level to do it.. I know for next time now that the PET are good to be filled.. sorry.


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## Wonderwoman (7/1/10)

hairofthedog said:


> 24 WW summer ale
> 
> top job WW really enjoyed this beer not a lot of malt flavor but a awesome hop combo summers day winner :icon_cheers:






beerDingo said:


> Had wonderwoman's summer ale. Nice arvo drinker. I'm not sure if I like Nelson Sauvon hops yet. The few beers that I've drunk with them, seem to be a little sour or something. However, you seemed to balance that out OK. After looking at the recipe thread, I see that it's k & b, so an even better job! Well done.




thanks for the kind words fellas. 

I'm currently giving my liver a well deserved break, but I have heaps of the swap beers left to taste


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## WarmBeer (8/1/10)

Okay, I did a side-by-side tasting of the case swap brewed TTLL versus a bottle of the commercial example last night.

Colour was a similar orange hue, but real one was considerably darker. As has been mentioned, mine has turned out very cloudy, whether due to process or a mild infection, I don't currently know. The bottled version is bright, but with a minimal head, as opposed to about 0.5 cm of persistent head on mine.

Smell was worlds apart. I got a mountain of mandarin out of the case swap beer, and a much more subtle, earthy note from the real beer, a little harsher on the nose. 

Taste is kinda similar, except that mine is much, much sweeter. I think I really stuffed up by using a Wyeast 1968 yeast, as it just didn't attenuate enough. To get the level of dryness that the original had, I think it would need to reach an FG of about 1008-1006, I think I ended up with 1014. 

The case swap beer is a nice beer, and I've had positive feedback from a number of friends, but it doesn't taste like a "Best Bitter" BJCP categorised beer should, at least to my n00b tastebuds. Saying that, I wasn't all that impressed with the bottled beer. At about $7+ for 500ml, and no guarentee on the freshness, I wouldn't bother forking out for another. It just didn't rock my beer drinking world enough.


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## Fourstar (8/1/10)

WarmBeer said:


> Okay, I did a side-by-side tasting of the case swap brewed TTLL versus a bottle of the commercial example last night.
> 
> Colour was a similar orange hue, but real one was considerably darker. As has been mentioned, mine has turned out very cloudy, whether due to process or a mild infection, I don't currently know. The bottled version is bright, but with a minimal head, as opposed to about 0.5 cm of persistent head on mine.
> 
> ...




Did you get any of the bubblegum notes like i was getting WB? 

Oh, i had your ESB, i also BJCP'd it as well. I think i gave it a 30 (from memory, i'll post the detts when i have time, i also need ot post brendo's as well). 

The ESB is a decent beer just lacking in a few minor points from what i remember to make it a good example of an ESB. As for the TTL i had of yours, if it used the exact same yeast as your ESB, i'd say it was infected the bottle i had as it sure wasn't the 1968 i know.

Hmmm mandarin. Do you remember getting that from mine when you tried it. i cant remember tasting that.


----------



## chris.taylor.98 (8/1/10)

*14. sappas -Altbier*

Some bready malt sweetness in the aroma, some esters, and slight hop (spicy peppery)

Slight off white head, fairly persistent. Light copper colour and slightly cloudy.

A lot of grain flavours coming through


Refreshing malt sweetness up the front

Not much bitterness, but enough to ensure that it is not too cloying.

Slight astringency in the finish which makes it a bit harsher than would otherwise expect. Does dry out a bit as well

Noticeable alcohol ( but not hot ), and medium body, with medium to low carbonation.

Overall very refreshing and clean.


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## Wonderwoman (10/1/10)

*17b Zebba - redcoats IPA*

poured with good head, and had good head retention. a bit cloudy._ lovely_ aroma... the aroma was so good that I was a bit disappointed by the flavour at first. I didn't think it was bitter enough for an IPA, but enjoyable nonetheless


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## brettprevans (10/1/10)

Chris Taylor said:


> *6. CM2 - Aussie Gold Digger Lager*
> 
> Slight malt and hop character coming through the aroma, almost getting a straw like aroma from the malt.
> 
> ...


Hmm I buggted thus up. It's only about 4.4%. well I guess it was experimental being a rice lager and all. Plus multiple decoctions. Thx for feedback. Will refine.


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## beerDingo (11/1/10)

21. Hutch - Nelson Sauvin pseudo-lager:
I was a little worried with this one. ie., some comments that people got an infected bottle, and the fact that it's Nelson Sauvin hops. However, I didn't notice any infection  (I didn't find it at all sour). Also, I was yet to have a beer with Nelson Sauvin hops that I have REALLY enjoyed, and was a little woried with brewing with the ones I've got in the freezer. However, you have changed my mind Hutch! You balanced this really well IMO. It had a really fruity hop flavour, but was backed up with a nice malty characteristic so that you didn't end up with a mouthful of fruityness. Well done for restoring my faith in these hops, and for a nice beer!


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## scott_penno (11/1/10)

Hi Chris,



Chris Taylor said:


> Slight astringency in the finish which makes it a bit harsher than would otherwise expect. Does dry out a bit as well



Do you (or anyone else who's tried it) have any suggestions for the source of the astringency and how to overcome it? Is it from the husks and the sparge water being too hot or is it something else?...

sap.


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## zebba (11/1/10)

wonderwoman said:


> *17b Zebba - redcoats IPA*
> 
> poured with good head, and had good head retention. a bit cloudy._ lovely_ aroma... the aroma was so good that I was a bit disappointed by the flavour at first. I didn't think it was bitter enough for an IPA, but enjoyable nonetheless


That's strange as IanH's SS had it sitting @ mid-60's in the IBU stakes. I wonder if this is 'cause I was a little stingy on the late hopping (i.e. 20 to zero minute additions)? (Almost) all the bittering came from Simcoe @ 60 mins, and after comparing the bitterness from Simcoe to other hops I've used for bittering (notably Nugget & Amarillo), Simcoe seems to come out much "smoother". The brew I bittered with Amarillo, for example, was estimated to be 30IBU, but the bitterness seemed to hit the back of the throat more than the ones I've done with Simcoe which were bitter but not in that "cat scratching the back of your neck" way...

Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Fents (11/1/10)

Hey fourstar just cracked your swap and it was funky as all hell. Upon closer inspection of the bottle i found a huge brown ring around the opening in the bottle. The bottle cap must have rusted. Spewing as i was looking forward to it bad in this 40c+ heat. Just letting you know.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (11/1/10)

Fents said:


> Hey fourstar just cracked your swap and it was funky as all hell. Upon closer inspection of the bottle i found a huge brown ring around the opening in the bottle. The bottle cap must have rusted. Spewing as i was looking forward to it bad in this 40c+ heat. Just letting you know.




It's a bit late to be asking for a refund...


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## chris.taylor.98 (11/1/10)

*21. Hutch - Nelson Sauvin pseudo-lager*

Lots of NS hops in the aroma, predominantly passionfruit with a hint of peaches, some malt sweetness, no appreciable yeast esters

White head that did not persist. Cloudy, light gold colour.

Light and refreshing

Balanced towards bitter.

Very high carbonation, seems to work well with the light body although in combination with the bitterness adds a slight sharpness to the finish. Some noticeable alcohol.

Perfect for a hot summer evening.


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## Fourstar (12/1/10)

Fents said:


> Hey fourstar just cracked your swap and it was funky as all hell. Upon closer inspection of the bottle i found a huge brown ring around the opening in the bottle. The bottle cap must have rusted. Spewing as i was looking forward to it bad in this 40c+ heat. Just letting you know.



Sure it was mine?!? i can only remember bottling them in PET. unless i had one or two in glass?! (mine was swap #5) Either way it sucks having an infected bottle in the batch. Nothin worse than a rusted bottle cap.  Sorry dude. I guess i got you back for your infected batch!


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## Fents (12/1/10)

it had #5 on the cap on brown tape i think. but your right it was a proper glass coopers 750ml and not a plastic but i looked three times at the number and i swear it was a 5. apperance was nice and light to so yea i thout it def looked like a lager..you sure you dont remember bottling in a glass 750 coopers?


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## beerDingo (12/1/10)

Fents said:


> it had #5 on the cap on brown tape i think. but your right it was a proper glass coopers 750ml and not a plastic but i looked three times at the number and i swear it was a 5. apperance was nice and light to so yea i thout it def looked like a lager..you sure you dont remember bottling in a glass 750 coopers?



Was it a swap beer hanging around since the X-Mas in July Swap? (If 4* is sure that he didn't use any bottles)


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## Fents (12/1/10)

nope they were all in one box.


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## Fents (12/1/10)

mystery solved. found yours 4* in a plastic pet with a yellow dot and #5 on it. should of just said it had a yellow dot and not brown tape on the cap! call me spastic. looking fwd to it.


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## Fourstar (12/1/10)

Fents said:


> mystery solved. found yours 4* in a plastic pet with a yellow dot and #5 on it. should of just said it had a yellow dot and not brown tape on the cap! call me spastic. looking fwd to it.




Phew! So, who's was it then? brown tape?!? :blink:


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## beerDingo (14/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> Phew! So, who's was it then? brown tape?!? :blink:



I'm thinking it was:
15. Don Mateo - Hefeweizen

I say this as the one that I got had brown tape, and it was 15. So maybe the 1 got rubbed off? However, the one that I had was in a plastic PET bottle, but had 4*'s label from the previous swap. I also pulled it out, and saw 4* AIPA, and poured and drank, and it was not an AIPA. Then looked up 15, and saw a Hefeweizen. No wonder Fent didn't like it  

The cap had been reused a couple of times, as it had a 16 on tape below the brown tape that had 15. Come on, caps aren't expensive. h34r: (unless it was because people dropped out, and you moved a number)


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## Fourstar (14/1/10)

haha funny stuff dingo!


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## chris.taylor.98 (14/1/10)

*17a. Zebba - "Redcoats" IPA*

Piney fruity resin like, great hop profile.

Either getting a slight oxidized malt aroma, and some indications of it in the flavour as well, or its residual yeast still in suspension. Giving the cloudiness it could just be the yeast.

Cloudy deep gold colour with good persistent off white head. Slight lacing.

Firm bitterness helps to finish it out.

Medium body, medium high carbonation, good creamy texture. Some noticeable warming from the alcohol

Good robust IPA Zebba


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## Fents (15/1/10)

well 4*'s beer went down a treat yesterday and maticles porter was the goods too, needed a bit ore grunt though manticle imo.


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## Fourstar (15/1/10)

Fents said:


> well 4*'s beer went down a treat yesterday and maticles porter was the goods too, needed a bit ore grunt though manticle imo.



Well, im now no longer sweating bullets! :lol:


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## manticle (15/1/10)

Fents said:


> well 4*'s beer went down a treat yesterday and maticles porter was the goods too, needed a bit ore grunt though manticle imo.




Body or ABV?


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## zebba (15/1/10)

Had Hutch's Nelson Sauvin Psuedo Lager the other day. Cracking beer. Only negative was I shared it with someone else instead of keeping it all to myself.


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## Fents (15/1/10)

manticle said:


> Body or ABV?



Body


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## manticle (15/1/10)

A couple of people have mentioned that. Got one bottled at the moment that mashed a degree or so hotter and seems to be ok.

Cheers for feedback.


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## Fourstar (15/1/10)

manticle said:


> A couple of people have mentioned that. Got one bottled at the moment that mashed a degree or so hotter and seems to be ok.
> 
> Cheers for feedback.



I concur with your findings doctor! B)


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## Fourstar (16/1/10)

Well i sucked back one tongiht... well had a few sips 

3. Seemax - Kiwi Pale Ale

Popped the top, citrus aroma followed by an aceto bacter aroma (vinegar). Flavour nothing but all Vinegar with some lactic sourness (my teeth are so gritty). Maybe if this was a Belgian Dubel and turned into a Flanders or something of that description it may be enjoyable. Unfortaunatly in this state its undrinkable.. Sorry bud.


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## Kleiny (25/1/10)

Zebba #17 IPA

Zeb im sitting back having one of the multiple extra's left and really enjoying your IPA.

This bottle is good, i would suggest for the IPA that you move some of your hop additions to later in the boil to really push the aroma and flavour. You need to do something about clearing it up a bit. Try gelatin at the end of ferment. or change up the base malt for a more modified malt, you could also do a 2 step mash so protein at 50-55 then conversion at 66ish.

The malt has a great taste dont mess with the recipe other than the hops and really smash the flavour and aroma.

good work some slight adjustment

Kleiny


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## Leigh (1/2/10)

I must put the rest of the swaps in the fridge and get stuck into them...I have been really slack this time around!


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## Fourstar (1/2/10)

Leigh said:


> I must put the rest of the swaps in the fridge and get stuck into them...I have been really slack this time around!



h34r: Just make sure they are not infected. Past 4 ive had have been funk.


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## zebba (1/2/10)

I had:
- 14. sappas -Altbier 
- 15. Don Mateo - Hefeweizen 
- 20. Gava - Golden Ale
- 25. Beerdingo - APA 

Problem was, I took them to a BBQ foolishly thinking I'd remember each one and be able to write notes later. Alas, my memory is not what it used to be! All I can say with certainty is that they all hit the spot very nicely, and helped me soldier through the evening.

I think I've got 2 more left in the fridge... I try to get them knocked over this week. As between a trip to Slobeer and a couple of trips to the "101 beers" store in Yarragon (Gippsland) - well, there is just too much beer to try and not enough liver to try it all with!


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## hairofthedog (7/2/10)

7. Brendo Galaxy Amber Ale

very nice beer mate i dont normally like amber ales but with the galaxy which theres plenty of i really quite like it cheers mate


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## brendo (7/2/10)

hairofthedog said:


> 7. Brendo Galaxy Amber Ale
> 
> very nice beer mate i dont normally like amber ales but with the galaxy which theres plenty of i really quite like it cheers mate



glad you enjoyed it mate!!


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## brettprevans (11/2/10)

tapped my 2nd keg of my caseswap contribution (aussie style lager). it tasted fine. no signs of infection....so maybe i buggered up cleaning a few of the bottles ratehr than the keg being infected. interesting. 

anyways i must get on to drinking the rest of the swap beers.


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## Fourstar (11/2/10)

citymorgue2 said:


> anyways i must get on to drinking the rest of the swap beers.



Saying that i recently had:
*21. Hutch - Nelson Sauvin pseudo-lager*

Great beer, i didnt go into much detail judging etc as i had friends over. I did notice a touch of diacetyl which was the only thing in the way of faults. Other than that its a well crafted and very fruit tingle like beer! Had an awesome aroma and balanced quite well with sweet malt lingering and begging for antoher mouthfull. Quite a tasty offering there Hutch!

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


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## Fourstar (16/2/10)

Well ive had another couple more over the past week:

*20. Gava - Golden Ale -* Unfortunatly this was a wall of acetaldehyde. Hops tasted good but the malt was completly masked by winey apples. 
*
14. sappas -Altbier - *Awesome beer Sappas! Rich, toasty, sweet nuttiness. My first impression was a JS Amber Ale with a richer body and a toasty chocolate finish. Very good and dare i say one of the best in the swap. Thanks for the enjoyable beer lastnight!



So far, the experiences ive had with this swap have been underwhelming and have been concured by other brewers involved in the swap.  The most deperessing part is we are brewing these beers in the best conditions (winter/spring) ready for the swap so there should be minimal excuses for fermentation issues. Unless you did it uber late of course.

The biggest faults i have found with these beers are: Infections, Acetaldehyde, Diacetyl in that order. I think we all need to take a few things away from this swap and that is:

*1. Sanitation, Sanitation, Sanitation.* Especially your bottles and ensuring they are cleaned and sanitised well before bottling. I found alot of beers that where noted as being ok early in the game, after a few months in the bottle turned south pretty quickly. Acetobacter seemed to be the main culprit with Acetaldehyde noticable and alot of beers turning to vinegar.

*2. Temperature control.* Try and keep your fermentation as stable as possible by storing your fermenter in an area where there is minimal temperature fluctuation. I personally don't brew if i know there is going to be more than 3deg of temperature differential in my fermentation area. If i know there is i regulate it with an ice bath in the laundry sink. These fluctuations will lead to issues like acetaldehyde and diacetyl due to early flocculation, yeast stress, etc. Oxidation can cause acetaldehyde too so ensure when you are bottling/racking you dont have any splashing.

*3. Pitching rate. * Following on from temperature control, make sure you are pitching enough yeast if you are using a liquid culture. 1 smack pack is not enough if its a few months old. If you are underpitching and having to deal with temperature issues during the growth phase and fermentation as described above, you can almost guarantee yourself to have plenty of precursors left in the beer come completion. Atleast create a small starter (500ml) and then pitch, even if tis just to ensure viability as it will be worth your while. Oh, and dry yeast users should rehydrate when possible.


At the end of the day this swap is designed for us to learn from each other and enjoy the fruits of our labours. As it turns out, there has been alot of learning for majority of the group which should improve the quality of beers for the next case swap.

Cheers guys, i hope this feedback can help! :icon_cheers:


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## gava (16/2/10)

Mine was fermenter in a fridge with tempmate so temp was correct.. new coopers bottles soaked in saniclean before bottling..

It did taste nice early on i sampled a few.. what else could have been the issue?



Fourstar said:


> Well ive had another couple more over the past week:
> 
> *20. Gava - Golden Ale -* Unfortunatly this was a wall of acetaldehyde. Hops tasted good but the malt was completly masked by winey apples.


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## Fourstar (16/2/10)

gava said:


> Mine was fermenter in a fridge with tempmate so temp was correct.. new coopers bottles soaked in saniclean before bottling..
> It did taste nice early on i sampled a few.. what else could have been the issue?



I would contemplate blaming where im storing them (next to the beer fridge in the kitchen/dining area) although sappas beer was perfect so we can rule that out. Other than an infection taking hold over time (pointing to wild yeast or something else) im not too sure. Have any spare bottles you can taste to see if we can isolate the issue? May have just been a bad bottle although it would mean im getting all the dogy ones!  

Was it fresh new yeast or a repitch? You might have some symbiotic fermentation going on from some other yeasts picked up along the way and the bad stuff is chewing away at it over an extended period.


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## zebba (16/2/10)

The three things you listed are certainly the 3 biggest things I've taken from this 4*. I thought the first 2 I had down OK, but I think I'd just been living in denial on the sanitation front (everyone gets a few infected bottles in a batch, right? WRONG!), and the temp management got upgraded to something more reliable shortly after the swap.

The yeast management was the one big-un though. Hutchy pointed it out in his review of my beer, and his comments were reinforced by a few other testers. So since then I've worked on getting the right amount of yeast for the brew. This means no "big" beers from a single safale sachet, for a start. For shts and giggles I've even tried reculturing a few yeasts up from bottle dregs, just to see how it all works and what flavours I get out of the reculturing (before tipping them down the sink). Worth the effort for the cost of a couple of $'s worth of LDME. The TTLL we did at the swap was also from a reculture (from some sludge given to me by warmbeer), and that little bit of extra effort doing that right paid off with a pretty darn nice beer at the end of it.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Next swap, if I get a possie, I'll be submitting something that at the very least should be a bit more consistent across the batch


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## Fourstar (16/2/10)

gava said:


> what else could have been the issue?





Kleiny said:


> #20 Gava Drs Golden ale judged against APA 10A
> ...
> 
> Flavour: Citrus hop flavour right up on the first sip, some caramalt style background and the balance on the bitter side and hop preceeds the malt, s*ome slight oxidation probably from the low bottle fill*, possibly add more the hop bill later in the boil to really kick the citrus flavour.
> ...





beerDingo said:


> 20. Gava - Golden Ale*
> I was getting a little 'green apple' falvour, but wasn't sure if that was just the summer ale part of it though.*
> *edit: Oh, and the bottle wasn't filled to the top.*




This was a common theme with the bottle i got regarding excessive headspace. I think we have found your culprit for acetaldehyde. See below.



Fourstar said:


> Oxidation can cause acetaldehyde too so ensure when you are bottling/racking you dont have any splashing.


 
So, even if you are bottle conditioning you should still limit the O2 in the bottles to avoid oxidation and this will include excessive headspace. This a reason why macro brewerys force carb and counter pressure fill. To avoid oxidation, improve shelf stability and avoid our dreaded rotten apple friend.


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## gava (16/2/10)

new packet of safale us-05 used for this brew..

I keg so I dont see the point to test to see if I can reproduce crap beers in bottles  just finished my fatyak clone keg lastnight which tasted awesome throughout the drinking period of a few months.. no bad tastes the hops just mellowed out a little bit..

was a bit of a hurry i must admit to get it down so maybe i stuffed up somewhere.. next time I'll take more care I think..

cheers for the feed back..



Fourstar said:


> I would contemplate blaming where im storing them (next to the beer fridge in the kitchen/dining area) although sappas beer was perfect so we can rule that out. Other than an infection taking hold over time (pointing to wild yeast or something else) im not too sure. Have any spare bottles you can taste to see if we can isolate the issue? May have just been a bad bottle although it would mean im getting all the dogy ones!
> 
> Was it fresh new yeast or a repitch? You might have some symbiotic fermentation going on from some other yeasts picked up along the way and the bad stuff is chewing away at it over an extended period.


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## gava (16/2/10)

cheers.. that was a mistake on my behalf.. last time I filled bottles they were glass and lets just say only half made it.. so i didnt know how much to fill them up.. next time I'll fill up more and see how they go..

cheers for making sense of it all 



Fourstar said:


> This was a common theme with the bottle i got regarding excessive headspace. I think we have found your culprit for acetaldehyde. See below.
> 
> 
> 
> So, even if you are bottle conditioning you should still limit the O2 in the bottles to avoid oxidation and this will include excessive headspace. This a reason why macro brewerys force carb and counter pressure fill. To avoid oxidation, improve shelf stability and avoid our dreaded rotten apple friend.


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## Fourstar (16/2/10)

gava said:


> cheers.. that was a mistake on my behalf.. last time I filled bottles they were glass and lets just say only half made it.. so i didnt know how much to fill them up.. next time I'll fill up more and see how they go..
> cheers for making sense of it all



I'd say we have hit the nail on the head gava. 

Atleast this rule falls for everyone now. If you dont fill your bottles enough (or cap on foam) expect oxidation or acealdehyde. Dont be a tight arse if you think you wont have enough beer to fill the bottles guys. If you dont have enough beer from the batch, sub a few bottles from another batch. Its better than serving everyone faulty beer.


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## Leigh (18/2/10)

gava said:


> cheers.. that was a mistake on my behalf.. last time I filled bottles they were glass and lets just say only half made it.. so i didnt know how much to fill them up.. next time I'll fill up more and see how they go..
> 
> cheers for making sense of it all




If you are using a bottling wand, fill the bottles until nearly overflowing, when you remove the bottling wand they'll be perfect!


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## Fourstar (22/2/10)

*12. Hairofthedog - imperial stout
*
Currently sucking this back. Very complex vinuous characters, toastyness, roast, coffee, nuts, campfire ashes, damp wet fern plantation/forest... The list goes on. 

I'd have to say it has almost everything a RIS needs but unfortunatly its very full on the palate and the impression i get is that its a little under-attenuated for a RIS and somewhat cloying. Kind of reminds me of judging the old ales at beerfest. All where very syrupy and under attenuated but good beers much like this one.

I'd say if you could get this to drop 5-8 OG points and compensate somewheat with probably 10 IBU pints more this would be an absolute corker mate!

Great work either way! :beerbang: 

Rough Score: 31-34/50 (make the above changes and it would push it close to/over 40)

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


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