# Gose



## Doc (19/10/05)

Over the last year I've seen and read a number of articles relating to Gose Beer.

From here



> "Die Gose" takes its name from the town that originated it, Goslar. It became very popular in the nearby town of Leipzig but almost vanished in the early-to-mid twentieth century. Thankfully, due to the determination of a few brewers, the Gose style has not been lost forever and is undergoing something of a revival, being produced by three breweries after an absence of over 30 years.
> 
> Gose is a top-fermented wheat beer, sometimes including oats, with added coriander and salt. The inclusion of coriander and salt is contrary to the excessively strict beer purity law ("Reinheitsgebot") but as the law was a Bavarian one and Gose originated outside Bavaria, this wasn't a problem until the unification of Germany and the wider application of the Reinheitsgebot. Gose was traditionally spontaneously fermented, like Belgian lambic ales or Berliner Weisse, with fermentation being initiated by natural wild yeasts carried in the air, instead of the addition of particular strains of yeast but today's brewers use their own yeasts.



I'm thinking of experimenting with one, so am wondering if anyone here brewed a Gose Beer ?
Good or bad experiences ?
Recipes tips ?

Doc


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## nonicman (19/10/05)

I've also been reading about this style and would be keen to hear how you go with this.

I guess you have read Michael Jackson's piece on Gose which is linked at the bottom of the article you provide and gives some direction in making a Gose.

http://beerhunter.com/documents/19133-001353.html


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## kook (19/10/05)

Haven't brewed one, but tasted two now.

Definately very unique beers. Suprisingly salty in flavour! Quite refreshing really.


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## Boots (19/10/05)

Doc,
Here's a few references to it in Randy Mosher's "Radical Brewing"



> salt in small quantities (one eigth to on half teaspoon per 5 gallons) will boost mouthfeel, a trick used by brewers of gose beer, a light brew from eastern Germany



Plus a recipe (might want to check his website as a lot of the recipes have corrections)

"Hose your nose Gose"

23% Pilsener Malt
15% Sour Malt
54% Wheat Malt
8% unmalted oats (oatmeal)
Rice Hulls

28g Spalt (4%aa) added to mash
14g Spalt (4%aa) 45 Mins

Step mash with rests at 45deg, and 67deg. Dilution of 2 quarts per pound. Note that the first batch of hops goes into the mash rather than the boil. Mash out at 76.5. Boil for 45 mins only.

At end of boil, add 0.25 teaspoon of salt plus 28g coriander

Ferment with a German weisseer yeast, a little on the cool side at 16.5 - 19.5 degrees.

og 1036
colour pale straw
10ibu
maturation 3-4 weeks

----

HTH 

Cheers


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## jayse (19/10/05)

TDH brought one to a flocculator get together once, don't remember it all that well but i do remember it was a quite salty wheat beer of sorts. The salt did stand out quite a lot. Anyway, good luck on brewing it doc.
Maybe the grumpy bugger might see this thread and post something for ya!

go the gose, reminds me of the aviator when he's building the spruce goose...show me the blue prints, show me the blue prints,show me the blue prints,show me the blue prints,show me the blue prints,show me the blue prints,....


Tangerine
Jayse


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## Borret (19/10/05)

it's the way of the future, it's the way of the future, it's the WAY of the future, it's the way of the FUTURE.

Damb it Jayse, now Ill be repeating that instead of counting sheep for the next 3 hrs 

:wacko:


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## warrenlw63 (19/10/05)

I can remember reading somewhere that the long neck in the bottle is a deliberate thing. The yeasty head travelled up it to form a natural bung. :blink:

Says Warren repeatedly washing his hands.... Way of the future... Way of the future... Way of the future... :lol: 

Warren -


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## jayse (19/10/05)

warrenlw63 said:


> Way of the future... Way of the future... Way of the future... :lol:
> 
> 
> [post="84036"][/post]​



Cut to the future and another country, i don't think you'll pick up any nice yeast out of the air, the best you could hope for is proberly a suburban chick in track suit pants and a guns and roses tshirt to walk by.  because that yeast might at least tame whatever is in the air.  
Iam sure by the time doc logs on in the morning he'll have a yeast in mind and it won't be one plucked from the air in suburban australia :beerbang: 


over the hills and far away
Jayse

EDIT: Way of the future... Way of the future... Way of the future..........


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## warrenlw63 (20/10/05)

jayse said:


> a suburban chick in track suit pants and a guns and roses tshirt to walk by.  because that yeast might at least tame whatever is in the air.
> [post="84044"][/post]​




:lol: :lol: Bloody Sth Australians. 

It's the way of the past.... .It's the way of the past.... .It's the way of the past.... .

Warren -


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## nonicman (20/10/05)

Would you use unmalted wheat in this style of beer? In one article by Michael Jackson he lists malted wheat and no unmalted wheat for one brewery and in the other article of Michael's linked in the orginal article posted by Doc, Jackson refers to Gose as being made with air dried wheat as per the Belgium Wit/Blanc beers. This to me reads torrified wheat, would this be correct?. So a Belgium Wit/Blanc grist with a German wheat yeast and salt/corriander to spice?


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## warrenlw63 (20/10/05)

Nonicman.

I'd say malted wheat, pils malt and a small amount of munich. Managed to find this FWIW. The style becomes more interesting by the minute. Would you use a Weizen or regular ale strain? :unsure: 

Appearance: Very bright gold, fairly clear, spritzy

Aroma: A hint of apple-skin, champagne-like with leafy undertones

Flavor: Quite complex with notes of plums, herbs, lemon, orange, and coriander on the palate and a subtly refreshing sharpness provided by the addition of salt.

Finish: Dry with the lactic acid bacteria providing refreshing undertones. Earthly, dry, malt and a hint of fruitcake are apparent.

Malt: Pilsner & Munich, wheat malt {60%}

Alc./Vol.: 4.5% IBU: 13 EBC: 10.5 OG: 1046

Warren -


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## kook (20/10/05)

Another interesting experiment may be Sahti?!.....


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## nonicman (20/10/05)

kook said:


> Another interesting experiment may be Sahti?!.....
> [post="84257"][/post]​


The juniper branches might take some sourcing 

http://www.posbeer.org/oppaat/sahti/brewing.php


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## Doc (13/11/05)

Boots said:


> Doc,
> Here's a few references to it in Randy Mosher's "Radical Brewing"
> 
> 
> ...



This weekends brew is going to either be another HefeRyeizen or the Gose. So looking back over my notes on Gose and your post Boots I see reference to Sour Malt.
What the hell is Sour Malt ? Anyone anyone, Bueller bueller ?

Doc


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## Linz (13/11/05)

Doc said:


> What the hell is Sour Malt ? Anyone anyone, Bueller bueller ?
> 
> Doc
> [post="90234"][/post]​




not acidulated malt??????

also there is a reference to Gose in BYO

Leipziger Gose: Style Profile (Jan, 2005), this the same????

beerz

Linz


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## Doc (13/11/05)

Just dug up that article Linz.
The BYO recipe calls for Acidulated Malt. Unfortuantely I don't quite have enough in stock, but it should be enough to give a subtle version of the desired effect.

Beers,
Doc

*Doc's Salty Old Gose*

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

15-A German Wheat and Rye Beer, Weizen/Weissbier

Min OG: 1.044 Max OG: 1.052
Min IBU: 8 Max IBU: 15
Min Clr: 4 Max Clr: 16 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L):  19.00 Wort Size (L): 19.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.08
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 12.02
Anticipated EBC: 9.6
Anticipated IBU: 23.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 10.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 22.35 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.041 SG 10.28 Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
61.3 2.50 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.040 4
19.4 0.79 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 7
11.0 0.45 kg. JWM Light Munich Australia 1.038 20
8.3 0.34 kg. Weyermann Acidulated Germany 1.000 5

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
42.00 g. Hersbrucker Plug 2.50 15.1 45 min.
42.00 g. Spalter Pellet 4.50 8.7 15 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 Oz Corriander Seed Spice 15 Min.(boil) 
0.33 Cup(s) Sea Salt Spice 90 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain kg: 4.08
Water Qts: 11.64 - Before Additional Infusions
Water L: 11.02 - Before Additional Infusions

L Water Per kg Grain: 2.70 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 66 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 72 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 80 Time: 60


Total Mash Volume L: 13.74 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.


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## Weizguy (14/11/05)

Doc,

Shame that I didn't see this yesterday. Would have suggested a sour mash (really? - he he) of about 150g :lol: .

That's what I did with my latest Wit, although it fermented too warm and WLP401 (IIRC, Wit II) makes plenty of phenolics at this temp. May be OK when chilled right down, and served in a Hoegaarden glass, of course.

FWIW, I'll try and make the BYO recipe before the end of the year. Maybe it'll be sitting in an S/S conical on Boxing Day. :beer: 

Best of luck, for sure.

Seth out


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## Doc (15/11/05)

I'm going to go out on a limb and brew 40 litres of it. 
I only have about half of the acidulated malt required, so it probably one turn out quite as close to the original style, but will be good to get an idea first time round.
Found a heap of Rock Sea Salt in the pantry so that will go in it. 
Should be a nice refreshing Xmas Summer beer.

My grandmother died yesterday and she was a great old stick. So I think it will have to be called *Salty Old Grandmother Gose* :beerbang:

Beers,
Doc


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## nonicman (15/11/05)

Condolences to you and the family Doc with your Grandmother. Here's hoping that the Gose turns out extra good. :beer:


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## Doc (20/11/05)

Got the Gose brewed yesterday. 
Wasn't watching the end of the sparge and got a bit extra volume into the kettle.
Now this is one maxed out boiler.





And this is near the end of the boil.
7 plugs of Hersbrucker, 88 grams of pellet hops (Stryrian Goldings in place of Spalt because I miscalculated my inventory), the salt, the corriander. It smelt fantastic.




Beers,
Doc


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## timmy (20/11/05)

My God, 

How could you trust that not to boil over? I wouldn't let it out of my sights.


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## Doc (20/11/05)

timmy said:


> My God,
> 
> How could you trust that not to boil over? I wouldn't let it out of my sights.
> [post="91923"][/post]​



There was a very small boilover at the start of the boil.
After that the complete control of the HP reg and the NASA burner meant no problems.
I only got about an extra 2 litres over a normal batch size, but the difference between 47 and 49 litres is a 50 litre vessel is quite obvious :lol:
Ironically I overshot my gravity into the fermenter, and all the plug hops meant I still hit my volume. All good at the end of the brew.

Beers,
Doc


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## warrenlw63 (20/11/05)

Brewin' on the edge Doc! :beerbang: :beerbang: Love it. :super: 

Time to upgrade to a larger pot.  

Warren -


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## Weizguy (21/11/05)

looks good, Doc   

How long until she's drinkable?

I'm inspired to make one of these soon now.

Truly inspirational!!! 

Seth out


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## Doc (21/11/05)

I'll take the first sample when I rack it mid next week.
Then, the rate I'm going through beer ATM I think it will be in a keg after about three weeks in the fermenter 
I post tasting notes.

Beers,
Doc


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## Doc (30/11/05)

Went to rack the Gose tonight. Took a gravity reading and it is only down to 1.030. 
Took a swig to get a taste and, OMG. Warm salty sea water with a hint of wheat beer.
Quite a bit of sweetness also due to the gravity.
I'll be leaving it in primary for another week hoping the gravity will come down and hopefully the saltyness will subside. 
If the saltyness doesn't subside then a warning to other Gose brewers. A little rock salt goes a long way 

Doc


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## warrenlw63 (30/11/05)

Also remember Doc.

Excess salt is toxic to yeast. h34r: Could explain the slow attenuation. :unsure: 

Warren -


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## Doc (30/11/05)

Yeah, I was trying to put that out of my mind so I didn't worry about it.
Luckily I made another starter from some of the yeast left over after pitching, so I can reintroduce that in another week if it doesn't make much progress.

Doc


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## Ross (30/11/05)

Doc,

.33 of a cup of salt - Wow... Anything more than 2 teaspoons & you can pick up the taste... does it really use that much? I use a teaspoon in most of my brews, as I feel it brings out the flavour of the brew...

cheers Ross


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## Doc (30/11/05)

Try .7 of a cup of salt Ross.
The beer is supposed to have salt tones, but mine ATM has salt over tones.

Doc

Edit: The recipe I posted was for 19 litres. I brewed 40.


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## warrenlw63 (1/12/05)

Doc.

Maybe it woud have been more practical to have boiled the salt into a solution and added it to taste in the secondary? :unsure: By all accounts it can affect yeast as low as concentrations in excess of 50 ppm

Think you'll be pitching that second starter. :unsure: 

Still think the Gose should round out into an interesting beer though. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## tdh (1/12/05)

Five years ago I spent an evening in a Leipziger Gosenschaenke (Gose brewpub in the old East Germany).
Place was chockers on a Tuesday night and most drank the Gose with fruit essence.
I drank every version (incl. the banana flavoured :huh: ) and I recollect only a hint of salt that was albeit noticable straight away but couldn't say that it had Weizen flavours though. Maybe it was fermented on the cooler end and thus restrained the phenolics and banana esters (even harder to pick in the babana version!!!). The sourness was present and refreshing but also subtle and not Darren lambic-like h34r: 

Here's a pic of a typical Gose bottle brought over in hand luggage, contents distributed amongst the Flocculators last year.

tdh

p.s. pronounced Gaw ze (have to hear the 'e' on the end too)


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## tdh (1/12/05)

On the neck label it say's ingredients are - water, wheat malt, barley malt, hops, yeast, coriander and salt.

So definitely malted grain in this version.

tdh


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## Doc (29/12/05)

Just kegged one fermenter of the Gose. Had a taste and yep she is a salty old dog.
Going out on a limb and hoping that it may be more palletable at a lower temp, or blended with something else. Looking like the second fermenter is going down the drain though.
If I brew it again I'll definitely being doing a test solution as Warren suggests.
Great bottle tdh. When I get back to Germany I'll be looking for an authentic bottle to taste to see how many hundreds of miles off I was 

Beers,
Doc


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## Kai (29/12/05)

I don't fancy your chances at a lower temp, Doc, but blended sounds the goods.


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## warrenlw63 (29/12/05)

Either that or a shot of some form of cordial or glucose syrup to each glass will cut the saltiness. Maybe something along the lines of the Berliner Weisse crowd. :unsure: 

Better solution than chucking it out Doc. That's always a tragedy. h34r: 

Warren -


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## Doc (29/12/05)

The cordial sounds like a great idea. Lime cordial maybe the go. May just have made that Radler I was planning 6 months ago :lol:
Top idea Warren.

Beers,
Doc


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## Doc (1/1/06)

It came off gas this morning.
Had a taste this arvo and pow the saltyness of this Old Gose is right there.
Mixed in some Schweppes Lime Cordial and it made it drinkable. Made it taste like a frozen salted margarita.
Got half way through the schooner and tipped the glass.
So it isn't looking good.
Will try blending with other beers I have on tap at the moment, but the other 23 litres still sitting in the fermenter is looking like lawn food.

Doc


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## Ross (1/1/06)

Doc,

that was an awful lot of salt to add to a brew... Are you sure that's the correct quantity??


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## Doc (1/1/06)

Ross said:


> Doc,
> 
> that was an awful lot of salt to add to a brew... Are you sure that's the correct quantity??
> [post="100324"][/post]​



Right now I'm positive it wasn't.
Will need to dig up the issue of BYO with it in to re-re-re-recheck the quantities.

Doc


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## NRB (2/1/06)

BYO's recipe did indeed state 1/3 cup for 19L.


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## Weizguy (2/1/06)

Weizguy said:


> <chopped>
> Doc,
> 
> Would have suggested a sour mash (really? - he he) of about 150g :lol:
> ...


Hijack? hope not, just two stories in one. A reply/addendum to the above, and the reply to a later post from Doc. See below, after this reply.

re my Hoegaarden clone. It has turned out to be quite phenolic, but I'm enjoying it (chilled & in a Hoegaarden glass).The phenolics are strong, yet balanced with the coriander and the sourness and the tart wheatiness, riding on a bed of lingering sweetness that inevitably gives rise to a dry aftertaste due to the acidity. Quite a challenging, yet rewarding beer.
Perhaps U can come to luv ur beer too, in time. Maybe it just needs age to mellow it.

I hesitate to mention, but did U stick to 1/3 cup salt? This was the benchmark proclaimed by BYO mag. Could U have used a dud/ incorrect measuring cup?

Did U take the advice to test your limits with a 1 litre test solution of salt? They recommend adding 1/4 tsp at a time until U reach your limit.

No disrespect. Hopefully I'm assisting your troubleshooting of the problem, if (after aging) it turns out to be an undrinkable beer. Bad beers sometimes happen to good peple, and we need an occasional reminder of that fact.

I've had bad beer. So bad U can't drink it. Sometimes, so bad that the aroma of acetone is unpleasant, to point of scoured sinuses. It's all in the spirit of experimentation. You learn from each mistake. Sometimes, unfortunately, only after the mistake is repeated.



Doc said:


> <chopped><he is a salty old dog.
> Going out on a limb and hoping that it may be more palletable at a lower temp, or blended with something else. Looking like the second fermenter is going down the drain though.</chopped>
> [post="99858"][/post]​





> <chopped> the other 23 litres still sitting in the fermenter is looking like lawn food.</chopped>




Please don't pour it on the lawn. If there is enough salt, it will kill the lawn. Not a happy situation. Marital bliss might be in jeopardy.

As mentioned above, U should test your salt tolerance. Maybe Horst Dornbusch's tolerance is elevated by consuming mass quantities of salty (and smoky) Bavarian pork products.

BTW, did I ever mention that I could quite imagine a retirement in the Bavarian alps, with a large mug of fresh fruit juice in weizenbier with breakfast each day... Oh, and the view from the lodge balcony

Seth the proselytizer and zymocenosilicaphobic scientist


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## coolum brewer (2/1/06)

NRB said:


> BYO's recipe did indeed state 1/3 cup for 19L.
> [post="100375"][/post]​



I may be wrong (and I can't check as my BYO's are packed up ready for the removalists), but I think there was a correction in either the following issue or the one after lowering the amount of salt that was originally published.

Cheers
Peter


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## Darren (2/1/06)

Why not add the salt to the glass after pouring? Guess its too late for that now.
cheers
Darren


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## Weizguy (2/1/06)

coolum brewer said:


> NRB said:
> 
> 
> > BYO's recipe did indeed state 1/3 cup for 19L.
> ...



Peter, I just checked the 'Mail" section of the next 2 issues. No changes/corrections for the Gose that I could see, but there was a change to the Mountain Dew brew recipe.

I reckon they probably covered themselves with the salt tolerance test as I mentioned above. It seems that the mention in the BYO article, of exploring your limits re salt flavour, were well justified. Reminds me of times when the lid comes off the salt container when U want to season your food...U just can't eat it.

It seems that what we want is brackish, not salty.

Thanks to Doc and this thread for the lesson to be applied when I brew a Gose.

cheers
Seth


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## Ross (2/1/06)

coolum brewer said:


> NRB said:
> 
> 
> > BYO's recipe did indeed state 1/3 cup for 19L.
> ...



I'd put money on this being the answer - a third of a cup as an awful lot of salt & all reading I've done on gose, suggests far less...


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## NRB (2/1/06)

Doc said:


> <snip> the other 23 litres still sitting in the fermenter is looking like lawn food.



Couldn't you brew another batch without salt and blend the two? It could add a little more to the 'experiment'.


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## Doc (2/1/06)

0.7 of a cup of sea salt in 40 litres is too much.
Maybe the sea salt I used is stronger than the salt used by BYO.
Now I like salt. I love salt. I enjoy eating salt. So when I say it is too salty, it is salty (think Agean Sea salty).
I'd definitely recommend doing a salt solution test up front to work out your tolerance to the salt you plan to use when brewing a Gose.
As for mine, I'll try blending it with other beers I have on tap at the moment and see what (if any) nice combinations I can come up with.
Definitely learn from my experience on this one.

Beers,
Doc


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## coolum brewer (2/1/06)

Weizguy said:


> coolum brewer said:
> 
> 
> > NRB said:
> ...




Seth, that does ring a bell now you mention it.


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## Weizguy (2/1/06)

coolum brewer said:


> Weizguy said:
> 
> 
> > coolum brewer said:
> ...



Gonna contact BYO mag and ask for list of "corrections" for the year to appear in each December issue. *edit: - single word changed*


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## berapnopod (29/1/06)

Doc said:


> 0.7 of a cup of sea salt in 40 litres is too much.



I was reading over Randy Mosher's Radical Brewing, which has a section on Gose, and I remembered this thread. The recipe in there calls for half a TEASPOON of salt for 40 litres.

Berp.


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## Weizguy (29/1/06)

Weizguy said:


> coolum brewer said:
> 
> 
> > Weizguy said:
> ...


Just re-read this and emailed the editor of BYO. Will advise of the result.
Seth 
*edit - spelling


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## Ross (29/1/06)

berapnopod said:


> Doc said:
> 
> 
> > 0.7 of a cup of sea salt in 40 litres is too much.
> ...



Seems one extreme to another - In my experience half a teaspoon in 40L would have no effect on taste whatsoever...


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## berapnopod (30/1/06)

Ross said:


> Seems one extreme to another - In my experience half a teaspoon in 40L would have no effect on taste whatsoever...



Half a tespoon in 40 litres will give something like 64ppm of Na+ and just under 100ppm of Cl-
Not sure exactly what the detection threshold for either is but I am sure these are both well above it.
In typical brewing 100ppm of Na+ is an upper limit, same for Cl-, at least for light beers.

So I reckon 0.5tsp will give the beer a noticeable difference.

BTW, I also found a copied Zymurgy recipe for a gose here, which asks for 1tsp of salt added to a 19 litre batch. ie. double that of above.

Berp.


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## Ross (30/1/06)

berapnopod said:


> Ross said:
> 
> 
> > Seems one extreme to another - In my experience half a teaspoon in 40L would have no effect on taste whatsoever...
> ...



I add a teaspoon of salt to nearly all my brews (23 to 26L batches), as I feel it brings out the flavour. I can detect 2 teaspoons as a salt taste, but not one. no-one's ever commented on my beer tasting salty...

cheers Ross


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## fifteenbeerslater (30/1/06)

Been looking thru an old beer book. all the following call for one teaspoon of salt:
Country spcial ale, Malt ale, Special ale, Aussie ale, Lager beer. The following called for a quarter teaspoon of salt: Light ale, Dark lager, Golden beer, Pale bitter. All 20-23 litre. Hope this help.
Cheers 15BL :beer:


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