# What Wheat For Wit?



## KillerRx4 (20/11/06)

Im hoping to brew a Hoegaarden type clone this week. Ive got a cultured yeast starter ready to go.


I had planned on using 50/50 pils/wheat.

Went to lhbs on weekend to get wheat malt. Ended up getting 2kg of what i assume is malted wheat. (looks same as any other light grains)

Now while hunting recipies i think i might have it all wrong. Most seem to use flaked wheat, torrified wheat, unmalted wheat etc. 

So im confused. Should I try to find these other types of wheat or just go with what I got?


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## DJR (20/11/06)

Unmalted wheat gives the beer that starchy haze and a nice tang. You can use torrified, flaked, borghul (the stuff they make tabouleh from). You can use straight "wheat" grain if you boil it up for a while to gelatinise the starch.

Not sure of the cut in a wit recipe but in a standard wheat beer/weizen recipe about 25% unmalted works well. Normal malted wheat is still fine, you just won't get as much haze.


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## bconnery (20/11/06)

KillerRx4 said:


> Im hoping to brew a Hoegaarden type clone this week. Ive got a cultured yeast starter ready to go.




Have you cultured this from Hoegaarden? I seem to remember reading somewhere that they may use a different strain at bottling time, but this may not have been them. You may want to do a bit of searching on the subject of reculturing depending on how close you want to be of course. 




> Now while hunting recipies i think i might have it all wrong. Most seem to use flaked wheat, torrified wheat, unmalted wheat etc.
> 
> So im confused. Should I try to find these other types of wheat or just go with what I got?



Again depending on how close you want to get you would definitely want some raw wheat of the flaked etc. variety. 

I've just brewed a partial clone using Raw cracked wheat from the health food aisle. 

Tasted pretty good at bottling time, with a slightly darker colour due to the use of the extract rather than all grains. 

Searching on this site will give you plenty of info. You can also add flour to the boil to help with the cloudiness (details of this are around here somewhere).


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## KillerRx4 (20/11/06)

Im not really fussed about appearance apart from would like it to as light in colour as i can get it. Lack of haze is least of my concerns  

Ive used this cultured yeast before in a partial & came out very tasty for a can of coopers canadian blonde & couple kg of pale malt.

So I guess at this stage I'll go ahead & brew with the pils & malted wheat if its just going to result in a lack of haze.


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## Weizguy (20/11/06)

I use flaked wheat and a little (~5% flaked oats) in my Wits.

Just have a go with what you have. The flavour won't be too far off, and you can try the raw/flaked wheat next time.

Beerz
Seth


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## newguy (20/11/06)

A wit is supposed to have unmalted wheat, but ordinary malted wheat will do in a pinch. I throw in about 1 cup of ordinary wheat flour into the mash to make up for the lack of unmalted wheat if I can't find it. Yes, it works.


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## Voosher (20/11/06)

KillerRx4 said:


> Went to lhbs on weekend to get wheat malt. Ended up getting 2kg of what i assume is malted wheat. (looks same as any other light grains)



I hope the wheat you have looks a little different from other (barley) grains. Wheat is a shorter and stubbier grain.


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## KillerRx4 (20/11/06)

Voosher said:


> KillerRx4 said:
> 
> 
> > Went to lhbs on weekend to get wheat malt. Ended up getting 2kg of what i assume is malted wheat. (looks same as any other light grains)
> ...



No not that I could tell. It is a fairly fine crush though so no whole grains to compare. 

Hmmm wheat flour, is that your regular baking flour? self raising etc? think i might give that a miss this time round already confused enough :unsure:


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## Malnourished (20/11/06)

I'm off the flaked wheat bandwagon. I presume it's not produced for use in brewing and it tastes like it. You get terrible efficiency, and the mouthfeel is really lacking I reckon.

From now on the flaked wheat goes in the cereal bowl and malted wheat in the mash tun.


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## newguy (20/11/06)

KillerRx4 said:


> Voosher said:
> 
> 
> > KillerRx4 said:
> ...



Right, regular baking flour = unmalted wheat. I'll try to post a picture of some wheat malt - hope I get it right. Wheat doesn't have any husk at all, and is more oval in shape as opposed to barley, which is more pointed.


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## Khanbrew (20/11/06)

If you halved the Grain Bill would that be a Half Wit?


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## tangent (20/11/06)

> I'm off the flaked wheat bandwagon.


i agree
had some new Belgian beers the other day that tasted like weetbix. I hate weetbix!

I reckon the best is good old whole unmalted wheat milled seperately(it's a bastard to mill by hand). Nice fresh bread kind of taste. I'd recommend a step mash or pre-cook first.


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## redbeard (20/11/06)

For my last wit, i bought a couple of kg of wheat grain from the health food shop, to go with the pils and a kg of malted wheat. It turned out really nice but at $4kg for the unmalted is rather expensive. where can u buy 10 or 20kg of unmalted wheat ? 

Also i recultured a hoe yeast from a 4 pack for a starter, & this fermented great. Im pretty sure the bottling strain is same as the fermenting strain.

cheers


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## DJR (20/11/06)

I thought the Hoe bottling strain was a lager strain, not the primary strain. I may be proved wrong though.

I think the food co-ops sell flaked wheat quite cheaply, failing that, you can pick up big bags of Borghul very cheaply from middle eastern spice shops. Maybe Fiji Market on King st has some.


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## goatherder (20/11/06)

Khanbrew said:


> If you halved the Grain Bill would that be a Half Wit?



And what if you totally screwed it up?

Would it be a f...wit?


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## Hargie (20/11/06)

... 46 ltrs....

40 % Weyermann Pils

40 % Weyer Pale wheat 

10 % Raw wheat from pet shop , smash it up in a blender 

5 % Weyer cara-pils

5 % Home brand Rolled Oats ( from woolies)...again , in the blender...

Mash to: Led Zepplin II @ 

52c protein rest 30 min

66c Sacc rest 60 min

78c Sparge til yer done


Hallertau m/f @ 60 mins to 11 IBU

Tettnanger @ 30 mins to 4- 5 IBU

30g crushed coriander seed + rind of 2 or 3 navel oranges ( make kids eat oranges) @ 15 mins


Wyeast 3944 @ 16-18c or K-97


...medal winner , with K-97(  )....


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## andrewg (20/11/06)

KillerRx4 said:


> Im hoping to brew a Hoegaarden type clone this week. Ive got a cultured yeast starter ready to go.
> 
> 
> I had planned on using 50/50 pils/wheat.
> ...



To be true to style you need to use unmalted wheat - flaked, torrified, crushed whole grain or even plain flour if you are brave!
The flavour effect of using malted wheat will be minimal as the spices (esp coriander) drives the flavour. But it will be slightly darker in colour with malted wheat.
Go for it!
HStB


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## Stuster (20/11/06)

Hargie said:


> ( make kids eat oranges) @ 15 mins



Good to see some discipline and precision coming back into parenting. :lol:


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## KillerRx4 (20/11/06)

Been a busy night but brewed with what i had. Had a few minor drams but went ok for my 1st ag.

Seems to have turned out alright, nice hoegaarden pale colour preboil sample. 

Trying to figure out beersmith now. It went something like this >

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.00 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC) Grain 50.0 % 
2.00 kg Wheat Malt, Bel (3.9 EBC) Grain 50.0 % 
33.00 gm Fuggles [4.50%] (60 min) Hops 18.5 IBU 
23.00 gm Coriander Seed (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Belgian Witbier (Wyeast Labs #3944) [Starter 2000 ml] [Cultured] Yeast-Wheat 

Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.5 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.0 % 
Bitterness: 18.5 IBU Calories: 0 cal/l 
Est Color: 6.7 EBC Color: Color 

Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 4.00 kg 
Sparge Water: 11.17 L Grain Temperature: 22.2 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 22.2 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 0.0 PH 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 10.43 L of water at 74.4 C 67.8 C 60 min 
Mash Out Add 5.85 L of water at 91.6 C 75.6 C 10 min 



Its having a no chill rest tonight while the starters in the fridge & will pitch the slurry tomorrow arvo.


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## Ross (20/11/06)

KillerRx4 said:


> Had a few minor drams but went ok for my 1st ag.



Aye, a few wee drams certainly help   

cheers Ross...


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## wee stu (21/11/06)

Ross said:


> KillerRx4 said:
> 
> 
> > Had a few minor drams but went ok for my 1st ag.
> ...



How would you know, ye sassenach!!

Whatever, welcome to the all grain brewthren, KilleRx4


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## Lindsay Dive (21/11/06)

redbeard said:


> For my last wit, i bought a couple of kg of wheat grain from the health food shop, to go with the pils and a kg of malted wheat. It turned out really nice but at $4kg for the unmalted is rather expensive. where can u buy 10 or 20kg of unmalted wheat ?
> 
> cheers



Woolworths sell 10 kgs bags of Wheat. Look on the bottom shelves in the bird seed section. This however, is only a 'feed wheat' quality mainly used to feed chickens etc.
If you go to a large Produce Store you will probably be able to buy 'Hard Wheat'. This is the stuff that most Pigeon Fanciers use to feed their homing pigeons and also the same wheat we use to make A Grade Flour. That's what you want in your mash. If you can't get that, go to Woolies.

Rolled wheat is good. It's the 'Hard Wheat". You need to soak it overnight with cold water with some Glad Wrap covering it and then immediately prior to preparing your mash, place the rolled wheat and water in a saucepan on the stove and slowly bring up to a temerature of about 70 degrees to gelatinize it and then dump it straight into your mash.
If you are using Raw Wheat, I suggest that you run it through your mill (your mill will love it) and carry out the same process as described above.

Regards,
Lindsay.


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## Ross (21/11/06)

Lindsay Dive said:


> ....bring up to a temerature of about 70 degrees to gelatinize it and then dump it straight into your mash.
> 
> Regards,
> Lindsay.



Lindsay, would your mash not do exactly the same thing, or is 67c too cool?

cheers Ross


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## Lindsay Dive (21/11/06)

Ross,

This information was given to me by Wes Smith for both rolled oats and flaked barley. I might explain here that 'rolled' and 'flaked' are the same horse different jocky. I am therefore assuming that treatemnt of the flaked wheat would be the same.

I may get bashed up here!!!

Regards,
Lindsay.


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## Weizguy (21/11/06)

Lindsay,

I thought that the wheat (or whatever grain) is steam-gelatinised before being rolled or flaked.

However, if that info comes from Wes, it's gold, Baby!
My lhbs has taught me that Wes's info is not opinion; it's hard-won knowledge, and should not be ignored...and we laugh when people question the validity of his comments. :lol: 

At the very least, it's a hydration step, and it all helps.

Seth out


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## Lindsay Dive (21/11/06)

Think of the difference when you start to make your porridge to the finished product. I know we're not boiling our grains but there is a huge difference.
Wes also told me to run the 'rolled' grains through the malt mill at least a couple of times to smash tem up.

Regards,
Lindsay.


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## KoNG (21/11/06)

Les, i finally got my Wit done yesterday arvo, i'm getting the yeast ready now.! Thanks again for the Wit II.

My take on the unmalted wheats is that the "flaked" is pre steamed, gelatinised so it should be right to go straight into the mash. But the raw, cracked wheat would need to be pre cooked to gelatinise.

i spent the morning yesterday searching for flaked wheat to no avail. i needed 1.5kg for my recipe, but instead went with 1kg of Bourghoul and used the rest plain flour.
i had a little bit of trouble with the sparge, but that was trying without rice hulls. added the rice hulls and all was quick and easy.
i was pretty worried about the flour turning to glue at the bottom of my mash tun, but all seemed fine.

used some chamomile late too.!


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## warrenlw63 (21/11/06)

:lol: Tabouleh Wit. 

FWIW Kong If you're lucky enough you can come across a Middle Eastern grocer who stocks their bourghul in 4 grades.

Best one to get is the coarse milled bourghul I've found it seems to behave best in the mash.

You can also get fine milled which seems to get a bit more gluggy for some reason. There's also coarse and fine milled wholemeal bourghul which would prove interesting in some more rustic dark beers. I've used some in a Scottish Ale but to tell you the truth couldn't really detect it due to the fact I'd used some rauchmalz which basically masks everything. :lol: 

At around $1.50 a kg it makes a great, cheap ready to mash solution. 

Warren -


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## Lindsay Dive (21/11/06)

KoNG said:


> Les,
> 
> i spent the morning yesterday searching for flaked wheat to no avail. i needed 1.5kg for my recipe, but



Most decent Health Food Shops will have flaked wheat, flaked rice, flaked barley and flaked oats.

Lindsay.


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## KoNG (21/11/06)

Lindsay Dive said:


> Most decent Health Food Shops will have flaked wheat, flaked rice, flaked barley and flaked oats.
> 
> Lindsay.



none of them had flaked wheat..
except for the organic co-op in manly which was closed when i was doing my search.
so i went with the burglar  and i'll grab the flaked wheat for my next one.

warren.. bourghoul was $4.50 for 500g..


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## KillerRx4 (22/11/06)

Well I transferred wort from no chill cube to fermenter yest arvo. I left maybe 2-3lt of crap in the cube & ended up with a fermenter volume of 15lt. I guess my Urn/Kettle litre markings must be off a bit since I thought I had 20lt post boil.

OG 1.050 in fermenter. I thought about topping off to 20lt with tap water but decided to leave it since it was my 1st ag & didnt want to risk spoiling it. :unsure: 

Will probably end up being my best brew to date & only have 10lt to keg after racking losses etc.

Pitched 2lt starter trub @ ~24deg which was higher than i would have liked. Overnight with the fridge at 15 deg fermenter was down to 18-20 this morning & fermentation firing away.


Anyway enough dribble from me.... for now :lol:


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## MHB (22/11/06)

Wheat and barley selected for brewing are different grades to those selected for bread making and other food preparations.
Wheat for brewing is selected for low Nitrogen and is carefully treated by the maltster to restrict protein degradation, this emphasise the wheat aromas in the finished beer.
Top quality brewing grade wheat both malted and torrefied should be readily available through your LHB so why not choose the best? 

Saying any old wheat product is ok is as true as saying you should use baking yeast.

MHB


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## Goat (22/11/06)

With regard to the pre-gelatinisation....

How would you be able to 'roll' wheat if it wasn't pre-gelatinised? Wouldn't it just crack/crush and turn to flour?

(not that I would question for a second Wessmith's advice)


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