# Australian Amateur Brewing Championship 2007



## Ray_Mills (23/10/07)

Hi all
The entry details and conditions and all the information you require are now posted on the IBU's web page, only those that have qualified with a 1st, 2nd and 3rd placing in participating AABC State Competitions can enter.
Best of luck to all that can enter
Cheers
Ray
http://ibunion.org/


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## Ray_Mills (23/10/07)

Ray_Mills said:


> Hi all
> The entry details and conditions and all the information you require are now posted on the IBU's web page, only those that have qualified with a 1st, 2nd and 3rd placing in participating AABC State Competitions can enter.
> Best of luck to all that can enter
> Cheers
> ...


All those that have any questions could you please email me at the email address on the web page, please do not PM me here as I have limited messages like all of you and if its full i might not get the message
Cheers
Ray


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## sinkas (24/10/07)

$7 per entry,
sheet.


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## Ray_Mills (26/10/07)

sinkas said:


> $7 per entry,
> sheet.


Have you ever organised and run a National homebrew competition before, if you have tell me what your budget was, I would like to know
Ray


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## Guest Lurker (26/10/07)

Ray_Mills said:


> Have you ever organised and run a National homebrew competition before, if you have tell me what your budget was, I would like to know
> Ray



I guess the viewpoint comes because the WA qualifying comp was charged at $3 per entry. But if I was to mention that the results sheets from the WA comp were quite possibly posted out using stamps appropriated from my employer, not entirely with their knowledge, that would help illustrate just how far those fees (didn't) went.


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (26/10/07)

Iirc the Royal Perth Show was $10 per entry and 2 litres not 750 ml.


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## Screwtop (27/10/07)

Ray_Mills said:


> All those that have any questions could you please email me at the email address on the web page, please do not PM me here as I have limited messages like all of you and if its full i might not get the message
> Cheers
> Ray




Sent an email on the 24th Ray.


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## Ray_Mills (28/10/07)

Screwtop said:


> Sent an email on the 24th Ray.


Send it again as i never recieved it
Cheers
Ray


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## Oblomov (31/10/07)

Just checking: is a shared 3rd place good enough to participate? (I'm hoping my beer improves a lot with an extra month of ageing :lol: )


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## AndrewQLD (31/10/07)

Oblomov said:


> Just checking: is a shared 3rd place good enough to participate? (I'm hoping my beer improves a lot with an extra month of ageing :lol: )



Rule D8 explains it:


> D8. Tied Placings. The normal procedure is to be used for awarding placings if there is a
> tie for category placings. For example, if there is a tie (equal scores) for first place, then two
> equal firsts will be awarded, and the next highest scoring beer will be awarded third place. If
> there is a tie for second place, then two equal seconds will be awarded, and no third place will
> ...



The local organising committee this year being NSW, so Ray Mills and the rest of the committee will decide your fate, I am sure they will be understanding :lol: .

Cheers
And good luck
Andrew


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## Ray_Mills (31/10/07)

Oblomov said:


> Just checking: is a shared 3rd place good enough to participate? (I'm hoping my beer improves a lot with an extra month of ageing :lol: )


No Problem
Enter it
Cheers
Ray


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## Screwtop (2/11/07)

Ray_Mills said:


> Hi all
> The entry details and conditions and all the information you require are now posted on the IBU's web page, only those that have qualified with a 1st, 2nd and 3rd placing in participating AABC State Competitions can enter.
> Best of luck to all that can enter
> Cheers
> ...




Is entry restricted to the same class as qualification in each case. Have emailled Ray twice via ibunion.org as requested but no reply.


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## browndog (2/11/07)

Screwtop said:


> Is entry restricted to the same class as qualification in each case. Have emailled Ray twice via ibunion.org as requested but no reply.



Fro what I have been led to believe, you are only allowed to enter the exact beer that you got the place for in the state comp. Is this correct?

cheers

Browndog


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## AndrewQLD (2/11/07)

browndog said:


> Fro what I have been led to believe, you are only allowed to enter the exact beer that you got the place for in the state comp. Is this correct?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



No you do not have to enter the exact same beer.



> D1. Qualification. To qualify for the Australian Amateur Brewing Championship, a brewer
> must have placed first, second or third (and scored at least 60% of maximum possible points)
> in one of the years State/Territory Qualifying Championships (see D8 for handling tied
> placings). Entries must be in the same category/categories as the placing(s) achieved in the
> ...




have a read of the entry rules and conditions here



> Is entry restricted to the same class as qualification in each case. Have emailled Ray twice via ibunion.org as requested but no reply.



Entry is restricted to the *same category * but the style can be substituted if the original State qualifying style is not available to be sent to the Nationals. 
Cheers
Andrew


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## Jye (2/11/07)

Screwtop said:


> Is entry restricted to the same class as qualification in each case. Have emailled Ray twice via ibunion.org as requested but no reply.



From here,



> D1. Qualification. To qualify for the Australian Amateur Brewing Championship, a brewer
> must have placed first, second or third (and scored at least 60% of maximum possible points)
> in one of the years State/Territory Qualifying Championships (see D8 for handling tied
> placings). *Entries must be in the same category/categories as the placing(s) achieved in the
> ...



The way I read it is if you qualify a beer in the '1. LOW ALCOHOL' category then you may enter a beer in any of the styles, 1.1, 1.2, etc.


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## browndog (2/11/07)

AndrewQLD said:


> No you do not have to enter the exact same beer.
> have a read of the entry rules and conditions here
> Entry is restricted to the *same category * but the style can be substituted if the original State qualifying style is not available to be sent to the Nationals.
> Cheers
> Andrew



So does that mean you can enter *two* in the same category with differing styles ? (sorry for the crazy questions here guys) For instance I got a place in the stout category for foreign extra, can I enter that and say a dry stout too?

cheers

Browndog (competiton newbie)


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## bigfridge (2/11/07)

AndrewQLD said:


> No you do not have to enter the exact same beer.
> have a read of the entry rules and conditions here
> Entry is restricted to the *same category * but the style can be substituted if the original State qualifying style is not available to be sent to the Nationals.
> Cheers
> Andrew



Don't forget that the 60% requirement has been dropped fro this year as well.


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## Jye (2/11/07)

browndog said:


> So does that mean you can enter *two* in the same category with differing styles ? (sorry for the crazy questions here guys) For instance I got a place in the stout category for foreign extra, can I enter that and say a dry stout too?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog (competiton newbie)



Yep, the state comp qualifies you for a position in the category and you can enter in any of the sub styles... as long as its one beer per style.

Edit - BD you qualified one beer in that category so you can only enter one beer in that aabc category, but you can enter the dry instead of the foreign if its better.


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## sluggerdog (13/11/07)

Where is the postal address for this? Noticed we only have a few more days.

I couldn't find on one the AABC website..


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## Stuster (13/11/07)

From the site Ray linked to in the first post.  



> Entries (securely packaged) should be consigned to:
> Chief Steward Australian Amateur Brewing Championship
> 28A Hospital Road
> Bulli NSW 2516


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## goatherder (13/11/07)

Chief Steward Australian Amateur Brewing Championship
28A Hospital Road
Bulli NSW 2516

It's in the pdf file called "AABC Entry Conditions 2007"


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## sluggerdog (13/11/07)

Cheers, I knew it would be there, I just needed to open my eyes.


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## Hargie (17/11/07)

...Nice to meet you yesterday Ray, the dark mild was very nice mate....


...good luck and hope you have a hassle free competition next weekend....


...Cheers, Scott....


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## Peter Wadey (20/11/07)

bigfridge said:


> Don't forget that the 60% requirement has been dropped fro this year as well.



Hi David,
Do you know why is the comp being dumbed down?
Surely the way to 'better beer' is to raise, not lower the standard.

Rgds,
Peter


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## bigfridge (20/11/07)

Peter Wadey said:


> Hi David,
> Do you know why is the comp being dumbed down?
> Surely the way to 'better beer' is to raise, not lower the standard.
> 
> ...




Hi Peter,

Sorry, no. I resigned from the AABA after last years competition so have not been involved in the discussions.

But I have read:

"27 September 2007 Rule D1 changed to remove requirement for qualifying entries to AABC
to achieve a score of at least 60%, but only for AABC2007. This was based on a yes vote
from all states with a condition that it revisited soon after AABC2007 to clarify the situation
for future competitions. Some comments were:
• Our judges were very strict and stuck firmly to the guidelines. We had several beers
that were good, but out of style enough, or had a few classic faults that it caused a
point loss. When they fell below the 60%, I was really curious how they would have
stacked up against the other states.
• I think the judges really need some guidance. A mark below 60% means the judge is
saying that the beer has problems and/or is not quite to style.
• In principal I think the 60% rule is a good one.
• I think we need a follow-up discussion about reference beers [for standardising
scoring], which have proved very effective in recent ACT comps.
• A discussion soon after this year's national comp would be good to clarify the
situation for next year's state comps"

David


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## Peter Wadey (21/11/07)

Thanks for the link David.
Hopefully the threshold will be reinstated.

Peter


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## Ross (25/11/07)

Are the results in yet?

Cheers Ross


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## lonte (25/11/07)

Seen nothing yet ... I'm tempted to send Ray an SMS, would that be out of line??


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## randyrob (25/11/07)

i don't hold alot of hope for mine, cracked one open last night and it was flat as a tac :-(
first batch i've ever filtered and it's been in the bottle a month but still no carbonation?

still tasting fantastic on tap, hope i didnt let the team down.

hope everyone else did well

Rob.


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## Kai (25/11/07)

lonte said:


> Seen nothing yet ... I'm tempted to send Ray an SMS, would that be out of line??



Send him a beer instead.


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## lonte (25/11/07)

Kai said:


> Send him a beer instead.



My guess is that by this time in the weekend after running that comp he'd have had quite enough already


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## Weizguy (26/11/07)

Nothing on the IBU site...yet...not that I was looking, of course...

Seth out


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## capretta (26/11/07)

results for what??  
as i understand it there was a flight yet to be done as we lost a few judges yesterday afternoon and we ran out of light so ray is going to assemble a crack team of judges and whip those out asap, so he maybe holding off on posting the results until he has completed the lot. We didnt even find out any results yesterday, it was all kept highly secret.. 
needless to say im sure the results will be posted before the end of the week... B)


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## chovain (26/11/07)

I can barely wait here. I'm meant to be working, and all I can do is "refresh", "refresh", "refresh" on ibunion.org. 

I reckon my work should start sponsoring the comp in return for the results coming out faster so that I get more work done. It makes complete sense!


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## Tony (26/11/07)

Go on....... Admit it.

You thought the results were in didnt you :lol:  

agonising isnt it hehe

cheers


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## lonte (26/11/07)

Ray and company are obviously sadistic and enjoying our pain


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## Weizguy (26/11/07)

Give it some time, fellas/gals.
If there is a flight to be judged, it may be the BoS round. If not, there is another flight to be judged before the BoS.

Some/a few/most of these judges are BJCP trainees. They deserve the respect of their peers who have not committed to becoming a qualified beer judge. Just a little of your time, and you can guarantee the results will be irrefutable.

I was part of the Hunter BJCP-trainees who helped at the NSW comp last year. It was great experience and excellent value. By tasting the beers of others, it's easier to see where your brewing fits in amongst other brewers of significant calibre.

There will be a lot of heart put into this judging... and the reinforcement of feedback and judging, after backing up from the NSW comp, will improve the quality of judging in Australia for many years to come.
Based on that alone, I'd like to see the AABC being held in NSW next year.

Testify! :chug: 

[/BJCP spruik and rant] :icon_offtopic: ??

Respect.
Seth out


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## lonte (26/11/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Give it some time, fellas/gals.
> If there is a flight to be judged, it may be the BoS round. If not, there is another flight to be judged before the BoS.
> 
> Some/a few/most of these judges are BJCP trainees. They deserve the respect of their peers who have not committed to becoming a qualified beer judge. Just a little of your time, and you can guarantee the results will be irrefutable.
> ...



Absolutely agree, I think you'll find most of the comments above are in reasonably good humour. However, some simple feedback from the organisers to let us all know what is going on isn't too much to ask, surely?


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## chovain (27/11/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> They deserve the respect of their peers [...]



Oh, absolutely. My comments are not intended to be disrespectful in any way. Just passing time, and looking forward to those results . (Disrespectful would be, "Why would you be so eager to hear their opinions of your beer? ").


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## Fatgodzilla (27/11/07)

lonte said:


> Absolutely agree, I think you'll find most of the comments above are in reasonably good humour. However, some simple feedback from the organisers to let us all know what is going on isn't too much to ask, surely?




As someone who spent both days at the judging, battling flies, humidity, some extremely bad jokes and someone's passionfruit lager, I'll tell you that as not enough people turned up to judge, a last flight of brews are being tested during the week to complete the judging. Please be thankful that a couple of blokes will be taking time out mid week to help Ray complete the tasting and THEN he will release all win and place results. 

Please remember that the head steward (Ray) has spent many hours in getting all bottles collected and catagorised and the flight list prepared, carting the bottles to the venue (three large fridges were filled with the entries), organising the barbeque to feed the judges & stewards breakfast and lunch, ringing around about a hundred calls asking / begging some more people to come and judge, packing up the tables and chairs checking the final results and entering everything into his computer. Oh by the way, he also works for a living involved in several businesses and he has his local drinking hole to support. He has still to return to the venue, remove three large refrigerators and several boxes of brew. 

So please, stop refreshing the IBU site, don't waste his time by sending PMs or asking questions on when the results will be published. This man is good and he will release ALL RESULTS at the same time WHEN he has ALL THE RESULTS. 

PATIENCE please.

PS -bloody good fun .. if you could have come but didn't - it's your loss.


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## Ross (27/11/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> So please, stop refreshing the IBU site, don't waste his time by sending PMs or asking questions on when the results will be published. This man is good and he will release ALL RESULTS at the same time WHEN he has ALL THE RESULTS.
> 
> PATIENCE please.



No one was doubting the great effort & time put in - but 1 minute spent posting a simple update here or on IBU's site would have apeased everyone - Simple really  

cheers Ross


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## chovain (27/11/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> So please, stop refreshing the IBU site,



Oops - I thought those pages were served by a computer. He should really get an assistant to respond to those HTTP requests .


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## chovain (27/11/07)

But seriously, the work of Ray, the judges, and everyone involved is greatly appreciated. Hopefully I'll get a chance to lend a hand with the NSW comp next year!


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## capretta (27/11/07)

down in wollongong all our servers are steam-and-dwarf operated. :lol:


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## Fatgodzilla (27/11/07)

capretta said:


> down in wollongong all our servers are steam-and-dwarf operated. :lol:



and now we don't have Work Choices we can't use the whip anymore ...




> But seriously, the work of Ray, the judges, and everyone involved is greatly appreciated. Hopefully I'll get a chance to lend a hand with the NSW comp next year!



Will appreciate your help. And the several men (and women if they are able) that you will bring with you. It really is great fun 



> No one was doubting the great effort & time put in - but 1 minute spent posting a simple update here or on IBU's site would have apeased everyone - Simple really



Appreciate that. But nothing is simple anymore. Besides, today is Tuesday. 9.00am - 6.00pm Saturday and Sunday means it's good to have a quiet Monday.



> Based on that alone, I'd like to see the AABC being held in NSW next year.



I'm happy to see it in Melbourne next year. If the boys can get the 2008 Conference of the ground, I'm looking forward to visiting Melbourne and the nationals there. Most of the IBUs sampled think the same on that matter !


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## Ray_Mills (27/11/07)

Hi
Sorry to be a bit late but the message has come across well, we were hoping to have more judges for both days, but being an event organised and run and supported by ametuers we did not get the support from judges who said they were coming and being the election date (we got in first) it made things even worse.
For those that entered let me tell you and others that have never judged or sat in and watched a competition like this it takes time and a lot of effort for all involved, so some patience would be nice. The Belgian ales took 4 hours to complete and be judged for the 15 entries, so your feedback will be good and its a very hard competition to judge, as all entries were very good.
I hope to have the final 3 categories completed this week.
Cheers
Ray


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (27/11/07)

Thanks Ray.


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## rough60 (27/11/07)

Hi Ray,
I for 1 don't mind the time you are taking, you have put in alot of work over the last couple of months, taking the time to make sure the comps run as best as possible, congrat's to you and your team!
Cheers.

P.S. Where the bl**dy h*ll is my NSW Champs feedback!!! LOL, just kidding.


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## dr K (27/11/07)

I was a judge who was unable to make it, but it was my Birthday Weekend and as such a family thing, and I let it be known. Thats cool!!
I strongly believe that the results of a comp should not be announced until the Fat Lady Sings, particularly if there is to be a BOS, and especially if the BOS is not concurrent with the comp, something that may happen more regularly.
A beer comp in 2007 (esp the Nats) needs to be run well and the brewers who have entered, and in the Nats case the organisers who have run the qualifying rounds, need to be respected.
It is of no use rushing a comp through just to get it finished and post some results if that rushing means that some flights that sensibly should have been delayed are rushed through.
A quality judge is not someone who has got their guidelines off the back of a can (cause they have not).
A few years ago a small group of craftbrewers in Oz picked up the BJCP baton and ran with it, a larger group convened and the first BJCP exams were held some 14 months later.
We now have a growing group of Australian Home Brewers who have spent the time, the effort and the money to expand their knowledge, to expand their tasting skills and to sit an exam and be assessed by their peers (a faceless lot in the US !) as being worthy of carrying the badge of the BJCP.

As I noted at the outset, I was not there, but, if there were less judges than anticipated a decision had to be made.
Be patient.

K


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## Tony (27/11/07)

Ray........ great work mate.

I have been involved with organising state comps for shooting events in the past and its a bloody big job getting everything organised. marking up targets, having all he paperwork right, trophies, medals ect, food for everyone, and then organising yourself to compete as well (my brother and i organised it, he got 1st and i got 2nd with a painfuly crook back) and then running it over 2 days is a big thing. 

My hat is off to you mate especially backing up from the state brewing comp. Someone asked me what i get for winning that and i said..... im sure i will find out when they are done with the national comp..... they are busy bodies at the moment.

I an seriously thinking of taking up training to be a judge to help out. I seem to read a lot saying...... if we had more judges and the comp scene is obviously growing in the state.

I find myself drinking beer these days, analising its every aspect. Aroma, flavour, balance, and its relation to style.

I doubt this is the place but how do i get started down to road to judging?

cheers


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## Ray_Mills (27/11/07)

Ross said:


> No one was doubting the great effort & time put in - but 1 minute spent posting a simple update here or on IBU's site would have apeased everyone - Simple really
> 
> cheers Ross


Ross
Being a retailer, thanks for all your effort and support you have given the national competition, just non at all, and your wanting results ???????????
Ray


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## SpillsMostOfIt (27/11/07)

I've not entered this competition, so it is probably improper for me to state an opinion, but...

If I were to enter a competition, I would *_expect_* the judging to be fair and considered. If that meant that for whatever reason it took a few days, or weeks, longer than I first expected, I would not mind _if the results were proper_. I take what I read in this thread to mean that the organisers intend this outcome and that the current extent of delay is reasonable. Of course, if the discussion continues into 2008, there is a reason to express concern, but I guess that the real outcome of that is to wonder why there might be such a lack of available, qualified judges.

To illustrate this point, would you want *me* to be judging your beer in lieu of someone who knows what they're talking about just so you get your feedback promptly?

If a national competition is to be held in Melbourne, I will happily assist to lift heavy objects and ensure properly qualified people are fed and watered.


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## Ross (27/11/07)

Ray_Mills said:


> Ross
> Being a retailer, thanks for all your effort and support you have given the national competition, just non at all, and your wanting results ???????????
> Ray



Ray, All people were asking for was an update to what was happening, they weren't asking you or anyone to hurry up. Everyone supports the great work being put in by you & the other judges & I've read nothing in this thread to the contrary

I would have been glad to give support, I sponsor many comps around the country - All it needs is someone to ask  Having a cheap dig at me is hardly called for...

Cheers Ross


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## devo (27/11/07)

Get with the times....the internetz waits for no one.


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## /// (27/11/07)

devo said:


> Get with the times....the internetz waits for no one.




Agreed - the time taken for something to be posted and commented online is quicker than it takes New York Cabbie to hit the horn when the traffic light goes green....

Scotty


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## Ray_Mills (27/11/07)

Ross said:


> Ray, All people were asking for was an update to what was happening, they weren't asking you or anyone to hurry up. Everyone supports the great work being put in by you & the other judges & I've read nothing in this thread to the contrary
> 
> I would have been glad to give support, I sponsor many comps around the country - All it needs is someone to ask  Having a cheap dig at me is hardly called for...
> 
> Cheers Ross


Nothing personal Ross
Its just I had no support from the Retail side of the industry for the Nationals or the State other that Dave's home brew shop in North Sydney.
Just letting out a little frustration
Cheers
Ray


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## Ross (27/11/07)

Ray_Mills said:


> Nothing personal Ross
> Its just I had no support from the Retail side of the industry for the Nationals or the State other that Dave's home brew shop in North Sydney.
> Just letting out a little frustration
> Cheers
> Ray



Appreciated & understood Ray. If you are involved again next year, I'll certainly be offering support.

cheers Ross


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## Jye (29/11/07)

Ray, any chance of a quick update?


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## Fatgodzilla (29/11/07)

Jye said:


> Ray, any chance of a quick update?




Be patient.


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## Jye (29/11/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Be patient.



Im sorry Ray, I wasnt asking for results just an update.


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## Fatgodzilla (29/11/07)

Jye said:


> Im sorry Ray, I wasnt asking for results just an update.



Ray isn't online and when he does go on line, he will put the winners and placegetters of all catagories on line at the same time. This was a decision endorsed by all judges and stewards still there on the Sunday when the question was asked. I can't and won't speak for Ray but do know that when all the flights have been judged, he will very quickly publish the results. That is the style of the guy. Have patience.

Please find enclosed four really boring photographs I took on the day using my new telephone camera. If you squint real hard, you might recognise if the judges are tasting your beer. Of course they wouldn't know it was your beer because the stewards did a bloody good job making sure the judges didn't see the bottles from which there tasting samples come from.


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## /// (29/11/07)

In Rays absense, last round should be Friday for a release of info thereafter.

Scotty


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## Tony (29/11/07)

The pic on the left looks like the boys wernt alowed to take a toilet break :lol: 

Damn Fat....... your starting to sound like the national comp bouncer.

We all understand that there were problems and we all realise that it is going to take time but you cant shoot down people (ordinary joes's) who have their beers entered in the highest level comp in the country for being interested in whats happening.

I can see you standing just out of shot of those pics mate...........

cheers and before i get yelled at in just trying to lighten the mood a bit 

PS...... im glad to see the time is being taked to judge it properly and judge it well. Its easy to rush things through and i am impressed with the IBU's diligence to do the job properly........ as every job should be.

Well done folks!


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## lonte (29/11/07)

hehehe ... I was thinking the pic on the bottom left looks like they're all squeezing out a simultaneous fart!


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## chris.taylor.98 (29/11/07)

Tony said:


> im glad to see the time is being taked to judge it properly and judge it well. Its easy to rush things through and i am impressed with the IBU's diligence to do the job properly........ as every job should be.
> 
> Well done folks!



+1


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## Barry (29/11/07)

Just how long does it take for 15 Belgians to judge 4 beers?


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## Korev (30/11/07)

Re the bottom left picture I prefer studious intent and concentration - Mental arithmetic is challenging after judging several 

Peter


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## Barry (30/11/07)

Where do they get such intelligent, wise looking judges?


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## Oblomov (30/11/07)

/// said:


> In Rays absense, last round should be Friday for a release of info thereafter.


What time exactly?
(Just in case: that was a joke)


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## /// (30/11/07)

Slight delay due to the 3rd judge not being well - will late in the weekend if not monday/tuesday evening.

Scotty


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## chovain (30/11/07)

Thanks for the update, Scotty. Hope the judge is feeling better.


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## Fatgodzilla (2/12/07)

Tony said:


> The pic on the left looks like the boys wernt alowed to take a toilet break :lol:
> 
> Damn Fat....... your starting to sound like the national comp bouncer.



We in the Union are such sensitive guys. Trully deep and meaningfull souls. Peaceful, fun loving people not unlike the hobbits in a Tolkien story. JUST DON'T GET US MAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Judging does on .....................


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## lonte (2/12/07)

well, at the risk of being jumped all over just for posting on this thread ... I notice that there is a message on the IBU's site that says "National results published soon (sorry)" ... If someone online is involved or was there can I deduce from this that judging went well over this weekend and that all the classes are now at least complete??


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## Tony (2/12/07)

Judges were thin on the ground........... the comp is not being rushed as its a very important comp......... and results will be in some time before xmas and we have to be patient ! Should be early next week some time from the last report just 3 or 4 short posts ago if you read them.

cheers


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## Stuster (2/12/07)

Shhh. Don't say anything or Fatgodzilla will come and sort us out (again). :lol: 

No, I think the results will be out soon as Tony says. Just keep clicking on the IBU site and see if you can get a denial of service going.


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## Fatgodzilla (3/12/07)

Stuster said:


> Shhh. Don't say anything or Fatgodzilla will come and sort us out (again). :lol:
> 
> No, I think the results will be out soon as Tony says. Just keep clicking on the IBU site and see if you can get a denial of service going.




Now Stu, I thought we sorted this out on Saturday .............. by the way your Summer Ale was a nice drop. Can you make me a dozen for Xmas please ? The new IBU bouncer will now have to come look for you ..

IBU site on AHB a closed site so assume you talking of the web site. Heard nothing yet so PATIENCE.



> Judges were thin on the ground........... the comp is not being rushed as its a very important comp......... and results will be in some time before xmas and we have to be patient ! Should be early next week some time from the last report just 3 or 4 short posts ago if you read them.



Gees Tony, now you are starting to sound like me. I'll drink your Sheepshagger this weekend - while eating lamb chops.


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## lonte (3/12/07)

Trivia item #1 ... In past AABC results where I could find a "Best of Show" (sometimes "Best Mash") the same class has never won twice ...

2006 Imperial Stout
2005 APA
2004 IPA
2003 ESB
2002 ---
2001 Trappist Ale
2000 Bitter Ale
1999 ---
1998 Porter
1997 ---
1996 ---
1995 Pale Ale


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## Jye (3/12/07)

Nice subtle bump M :lol:


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## lonte (3/12/07)

Jye said:


> Nice subtle bump M :lol:


bloke's gotta keep busy


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## beachy (4/12/07)

i hope entries that arrived a week and a half late were accepted.

for a national comp it is turning into a bit of a joke.


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## chovain (4/12/07)

beachy said:


> for a national comp it is turning into a bit of a joke.



Yes - I expect absolute perfection from volunteer-run, amateur competitions like this. When judges are sick, they should just get over it and judge anyway. Ray should have called Mr Howard and asked him to move the election to another weekend. And as a last resort, if the judging couldn't be finished on the assigned weekend, Ray should not have gone to bed until he had personally judged all the remaining entries.

I'm not aware of any offers to run the 2009 comp yet. Are you offering?

Edit:


----------



## beachy (4/12/07)

no i dont expect perfection . if i did i would have posted long before now.

yes there was an election but another full weekend has passed since then and the last update from anyone remotely related to the comp was four days ago

if one sick judge puts everthing on hold then total judge numbers must be very thin

no i am not offering for 2009 because i dont have anywhere near the expertise required but then i think the "f you can do a better job '' argument has already been done to death earlier in the thread.


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## chovain (4/12/07)

beachy said:


> if one sick judge puts everthing on hold then total judge numbers must be very thin


Well if you won't run the 2009 comp, then will you be helping out at the 2008 comp? The competition is run _entirely_ by volunteers. If there aren't enough judges, then that's _our_ fault for not putting our hands up (I'm a first-time competitor this year, but will be helping out as much as I can from next year). Clearly the judges were spread very thin - otherwise the judging would've been completed on the first weekend :huh: . How easy do you think it would be to get enough judges to complete 3 flights in Bulli on short notice: even if you _could_ judge, would you be making the journey?

How exactly is complaining going to make things better? It's _not_ going to get the judging done any faster; in fact it's only going to make it harder in future as prospective helpers start thinking, "Why would I want to help run a competition for trolls like that?". If you have any solutions, then feel free to contribute them once the competition is over - I'm sure they'd be gratefully accepted.


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## Paul H (4/12/07)

lonte said:


> Trivia item #1 ... In past AABC results where I could find a "Best of Show" (sometimes "Best Mash") the same class has never won twice ...
> 
> 2006 Imperial Stout
> 2005 APA
> ...


----------



## chovain (4/12/07)

Paul H said:


> So you think there may be some hope for a dodgy Pilsner?


You've gotta get past my Weizen first!


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## lonte (4/12/07)

The key thing that has to come out of this is that a full analysis of where things went wrong must be made and strategies put into effect to mitigate those incidents in 2008 and ongoing. This will require honest input from this years organisers and fault (NOT BLAME) to be identified and addressed. I understand this comp is to be run in conjunction with a National Conference next year. This will give the whole competition a much higher profile with much higher expectations from entrants, the press and general public.

So one positive input I would like to make, from a brewer who feels tagged as "impatient" from earlier posts in this thread is to improve the communication. A high percentage of the posts in this thread post-competition weekend could have been avoided if an acknowledged member of the organising committee took the time to honestly communicate the state of play and the plans going forward to finish the comp. It's only a brew comp, it's not _that_ important, but passionate people are frustrated because we just don't know what is happening.

I plan to contribute to the success of next years competition by actively participating in the organisiation and hopefully judging of the Queensland qualifier. I am not sure where the National comp is to be hosted next year but unless it's Brisbane that is the end of the committment I can make at this time. I hope that others do pitch in, learning from the mistakes, misjudgements or incorrect assumptions of this year and making the 2008 Comp the success it (and we as brewers) deserve.

Now, any chance of a one sentence post from someone in the committee on how things are going AND ASKING FOR HELP IF IT IS NEEDED.

Prost!!


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## lonte (4/12/07)

Paul H said:


> So you think there may be some hope for a dodgy Pilsner?


Why not? However on reflection if we think of an APA as a Pale Ale, and an ESB as a Bitter, my whole premise goes down the toilet.


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## sluggerdog (4/12/07)

Mark Chovain said:


> You've gotta get past my Weizen first!




Or my Dortmunder using the traditional NZ hops


----------



## Jye (4/12/07)

sluggerdog said:


> Or my Dortmunder using the traditional NZ hops



pfft... GO ROGGEN


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## Tony (4/12/07)

Or my No chill Botubeer English Old Ale that wasn't made with an english ale yeast


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## Jye (4/12/07)

Tony said:


> Or my No chill *Botubeer* English Old Ale that wasn't made with an english ale yeast



So its your fault the judge was sick


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## Tony (4/12/07)

BbBBBBBBBBBBBBBBbbWWWAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhahahahahahahaha

I think i just pissed myself :lol: :lol: 

didnt make me sick when i shared one with family and friends on saturday. Wa all sat around sniffing and sipping and decided it was good.

Imaging how good it would be if i had of chilled it.

Ho god..... here we go again :lol: 

cheers


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## beachy (4/12/07)

Mark Chovain said:


> How exactly is complaining going to make things better? It's _not_ going to get the judging done any faster; in fact it's only going to make it harder in future as prospective helpers start thinking, "Why would I want to help run a competition for trolls like that?". If you have any solutions, then feel free to contribute them once the competition is over - I'm sure they'd be gratefully accepted.



i am not a troll i am an impatient and frustrated comp entrant




lonte said:


> So one positive input I would like to make, from a brewer who feels tagged as "impatient" from earlier posts in this thread is to improve the communication. A high percentage of the posts in this thread post-competition weekend could have been avoided if an acknowledged member of the organising committee took the time to honestly communicate the state of play and the plans going forward to finish the comp. It's only a brew comp, it's not _that_ important, but passionate people are frustrated because we just don't know what is happening.



the exact point i am trying to make!


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## dr K (4/12/07)

I really should not comment, bu comment I shall.
I was not able to judge at the 2007 Nats, nor for various work, time and financial reasons at the two preceding, I did however, judge at the three before then.
There is no doubt, in my mind, that the Election played a significant role in screwing up a lot of events, the Nats amongst them.
Now is not the time to complain, goodness the results are not even out yet. Nor is this an appropriate venue to discuss what you or billy or fred "think" should happen at next years or the years after.
Get involved in your local comps, put your hand up to help at the State comps, even join a BJCP study group, you don't have to take the exam and importantly get in and help with the organisation of events, help with the actual running of the event, if you have not judged or stewarded before volunteer to be the chief cook and bottle washer.
Amateur Brewing in Australia, as it explodes in size, needs all the help and the encouragement of the members of the community that call themselves amateur brewers that it can muster.
The success of an event so often relies on the run up rather than the event itself.
A rampaging cane toad will not devour a silent Grasshopper..be patient.

K

EDIT: This is / was a general comment it was not directed at anyone political party or individual...K


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## Weizguy (4/12/07)

dr K said:


> <chop>
> EDIT: This is / was a general comment it was not directed at anyone political party or individual...K
> </chop>


Come on, Herr Doktor. Your department is no longer in "caretaker" mode, so U don't have to be so discreet.

As we both know: with patience, we learn tolerance of all things.

Les Tafari

P.S. go the XXXXXX ***** beer, or the other 2, which also will not be mentioned here, in case of severe embarrassment and disillusionment.


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## dr K (4/12/07)

> P.S. go the XXXXXX ***** beer, or the other 2, which also will not be mentioned here, in case of severe embarrassment and disillusionment.



Sometimes I think I have been disillusioned since birth, then a post like yours brings a smile to my face.
Thank you....seriously

K !!!! (I cannot use those stupid smilllliiieee things)


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## lonte (5/12/07)

dr K said:


> Now is not the time to complain, goodness the results are not even out yet. Nor is this an appropriate venue to discuss what you or billy or fred "think" should happen at next years or the years after.


Strongly disagree ... this is exactly the forum where the future of this event needs to be discussed, and given the hiccups of this year there's no time like the present to start the planning.


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## chovain (5/12/07)

lonte said:


> there's no time like the present to start the planning.


The present is a really _bad_ time to start discussing this. Ray is still trying to get the competition finished. Don't you think he may want to take part in any such discussions? This is definitely not the right time, and probably not the right forum.


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## PostModern (5/12/07)

lonte, which state or national committee are you a member of? They are the bodies that organise these comps and those are the bodies that will undertake the necessary corrections to the running of these comps and they will do it thru their usual media. It is not up to AHB's posters to do this. Planning is done and decisions are made off AHB. It is the state and national bodies that organise and run these competitions, not the grassroots brewers. AHB is just a brewing community website, not a national representative body. You can give all your opions here of course, but you won't be changing what happens to the comp next year.


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## Fatgodzilla (5/12/07)

Mark Chovain said:


> The present is a really _bad_ time to start discussing this. Ray is still trying to get the competition finished. Don't you think he may want to take part in any such discussions? This is definitely not the right time, and probably not the right forum.




Correct Mark. Complaining is very very useless anyway. It has been quite clearly spelled out that this year's Nationals have suffered from Murphys Law. What could go wrong, did. A blame game is unnecessary and frankly uncalled for. What will help will be for some people to simply have patience and let things play themselves out. Then in the wash up, assessments will be made and solutions found.

The 2008 Nationals in Melbourne will not have the lack of judges that we had at Wollongong this year, so any post mortems are likely to be very irrelevant anyway.

Again, patience. Having a bitch about things won't solve the problems. Getting three busy men with tight working and family schedules in the same room at the same time three times to judge the last three flights is not an easy task. 

I would thank everyone to stop warring amongst ourselves on this matter, just bite our tongues and let this thing play itself out.


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## bigfridge (5/12/07)

lonte said:


> Strongly disagree ... this is exactly the forum where the future of this event needs to be discussed, and given the hiccups of this year there's no time like the present to start the planning.



Just interested in what 'hiccups' you are referring to ? Just because this year's competition has been run differently to what people have experienced in the past doesn't mean that there are problems. Many competitions, particularly those run in association with Agricultural show societies show take weeks or months to release the results - and they have paid employees not volunteers.

I know that some competitions are obsessed with prompt release of results etc but this doesn't mean that ALL competitions have to be run that way. Like others have said I also believe that every competition is run as best as it can - given the resources and funding available. This means where there are many helpers and resources such as computers, programmers and websites the results will usually be available shortly after the judging is complete. Where there are insufficient resources then there will be delays. As they say the 'impossible takes a bit longer'.

There is nothing in the AABC rules that I have seen that specify how competitions should be run and what time limits are to be achieved.

I would ask any of you that are waiting impatiently if you honestly believe that the IBU gang is purposely delaying the completion of judging or the release of the results ? Perhaps they are doing it for their own amusement or to just piss you off  

Probably not. Hence perhaps people should just give them a bit of space and stop imposing their own expectations on the hard working volunteers.

To put this in Zen terms - when the results are ready, they will come.

Good brewing,
David


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## Trent (5/12/07)

Gday
I did not enter the Nats this year (didnt qualify), so I shall not comment on the time it is taking to get the results out. Even if I had've entered, it just says to me that they are trying to make sure they get the results right - the title of best Home Brewed Beer in the country is fairly prestigious!
Anyway, I just have one suggestion, after speaking with a friend of mine, and that is - can the state comp be held at least a month (maybe 2) before the nats next year, if that isnt going to throw everything out of whack? The reason being, there was only a 3 week gap (I think) between the state and nationals this year, meaning that people pretty much had to find out the results ASAP to get their entries into the nats in time. I know that there are quite a few home brewers that are not on AHB, so if someone does well in the state comp, and isnt on AHB, how are they to be notified that they have qualified for the Nats? If they wait for the score sheets to be posted out, it will be too late for them to enter the nats.
Does anyone know if any prizegetters at the state comp didnt send an entry into the nationals? If there were no missing entries, maybe this is a moot point, but it is just something to think about, and yes, I will be taking it up with my state rep. If it doesnt change, it is no skin off my nose, but I would hate to be someone that takes first place in a category, but misses out on the nats cause they didnt know until weeks later.
Best of luck to Ray and IBU's getting hte rest of the comp judged, and for donating so much free time to the cause.
All the best
Trent


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## chovain (5/12/07)

bigfridge said:


> Perhaps they are doing it for their own amusement


That'd so be me .


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## browndog (5/12/07)

> Does anyone know if any prizegetters at the state comp didnt send an entry into the nationals?



Over to you Screwtop.

cheers

Browndog


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## capretta (5/12/07)

dr K said:


> Now is not the time to complain, goodness the results are not even out yet.



haha yeah just wait until your prize beer gets a 12 out of 50.. then let the flame wars begin!! lol
i was going to release my secret judging name, but after the crankiness on this thread im not so sure!! 

yeah trent you probably have a point there about the closeness of the state/nationals, considering the results were not mailed out before the nationals, but on the flip side wouldnt you prefer a similar beer (age wise) to be entered in the nationals? i would have to say for sure there were entries that qualified that were not sent in for the nationals. i think from memory there were 168 entries. i feel sure though that if you entered the state, you probably would have been aware that it was a qualifier for the nationals, and as such would have gone to the trouble of finding out the date it was held. probably. but yeah they were a little close, but not really by plan. do you think you could get a bunch of judges together at december christmas party time?

and to who ever made the stupid comment about accepting entries a week and a half late, well for sure, keep sending those bottles in and we will keep drinking them. dear me...

PS my secret judging name was cameron so if i judged your beer, please feel free to pm any questions you might have, i and i will try to be helpful, but please dont be upset if i cant remember _exactly_ the beer/time of day/direction the wind was blowing etc


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## beachy (5/12/07)

capretta said:


> and to who ever made the stupid comment about accepting entries a week and a half late, well for sure, keep sending those bottles in and we will keep drinking them. dear me...



yes it probably was a stupid comment but my point was that it is a national comp with STRICT qualifacation rules and delivery deadlines and as such the entrants might expect the courtesy of a detailed explanation of the many problems that have obviously occurred directly from the organiser on or very close too the origional finnish date not second hand after much prompting.
having said that i agree complaining is not achieving anything and i WILL wait PATIENTLY


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## Jye (5/12/07)

Any update on when the results will be released? The last give date has come and gone  

Im trying to be patient but knowing that the judging is finished and the results are sitting there is giving me an ulcer.



/// said:


> Slight delay due to the 3rd judge not being well - will late in the weekend if not monday/tuesday evening.
> 
> Scotty


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## Doc (5/12/07)

Trent said:


> Does anyone know if any prizegetters at the state comp didnt send an entry into the nationals? If there were no missing entries, maybe this is a moot point, but it is just something to think about, and yes, I will be taking it up with my state rep.



I qualified and didn't enter. 
Two reasons. One I was hoping to have the judging sheets to see if it really was worthy of entering, and the second was the time between was too close with so many other commitments on the go.

Doc


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## Fatgodzilla (5/12/07)

Jye said:


> Any update on when the results will be released? The last give date has come and gone
> 
> Im trying to be patient but knowing that the judging is finished and the results are sitting there is giving me an ulcer.



Sorry Jye but judging is not finished. Tonight local 3 men brave and true will be judging a strong ale catagory and I think an imperial category. This is serious heavy alcohol and there are quite a few entries so don't expect someone to rush home and put all results up tonight. Again, on behalf of the IBUs and all those good men from outside the area who travelled down to help the competition, please show continued patience. Please don't PM Ray or anyone else tonight asking for info - you won't get an response. For the moment people are embarassed enough how things have gone and silly snide little comments are not healthy. For what it's worth I apologise to everyone for the delays.


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## Oblomov (5/12/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Sorry Jye but judging is not finished. Tonight local 3 men brave and true will be judging a strong ale catagory and I think an imperial category. This is serious heavy alcohol and there are quite a few entries so don't expect someone to rush home and put all results up tonight. Again, on behalf of the IBUs and all those good men from outside the area who travelled down to help the competition, please show continued patience. Please don't PM Ray or anyone else tonight asking for info - you won't get an response. For the moment people are embarassed enough how things have gone and silly snide little comments are not healthy. For what it's worth I apologise to everyone for the delays.


Don't worry about it.

Thanks for the update!


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## Screwtop (5/12/07)

browndog said:


> Over to you Screwtop.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog




Simply had difficulty getting a reply from the organisers re some category questions I had and the entry deadline was fast approaching. Received an answer from Jye in the form of a post in this thread, but preferred a "from the horses mouth" reply from IBU. When I did receive a reply after 3 requests it was basically "look for yourself the information is there" thought Noice! maybe they have employed the services of some offshore, no care centre to handle replies. Changed my mind on entering based simply on that response, a sensitive little petal I know. But my personal opinion was that if this was the attitude portrayed by the organisers, then I really didn't want to be involved. I went away for a few days and gave the whole thing some thought, when I came home the entries were all sitting there, would have had to post them that day, made the decision then and there to give it a miss.

The reason for my post here is because of the request above. Don't believe that this forum serves any purpose or has any involvement in the comp or in disseminating of results. The committee and judges will decide when and where results are posted, this is nothing other than a forum for discussion and for airing opions.

For mine the judging seems pretty ordinary and has suffered from lack of proper planning. That being said there is nothing anyone can do now so it's pointless going on about it. I am sorry for all of the entrants who have strived so hard, this national comp will no doubt result in some stigma being attached to the results for years to come. It would have been much nicer for entrants to have had results published without such controversy.

Leave em alone, ya can't unscramble eggs, this should never happen again, it's not fair on entrants, stuff the feelings of the judges, comps exist due to entrants and entry fees, it's the chicken and egg story. So many posts here defend the judges, while it's their job to judge it's the organisers responsibility to look to the 6 P's principal and plan. It has turned into a bit of a cowboy outfit, but lay off and wait, especially if you have entries in the comp, how will you feel if you win a category, will you then be praising and thanking judges and organisers.

Screwy


----------



## Fatgodzilla (5/12/07)

Screwtop said:


> Simply had difficulty getting a reply from the organisers re some category questions I had and the entry deadline was fast approaching. Received an answer from Jye in the form of a post in this thread, but preferred a "from the horses mouth" reply from IBU. When I did receive a reply after 3 requests it was basically "look for yourself the information is there" thought Noice! maybe they have employed the services of some offshore, no care centre to handle replies. Changed my mind on entering based simply on that response, a sensitive little petal I know. But my personal opinion was that if this was the attitude portrayed by the organisers, then I really didn't want to be involved. I went away for a few days and gave the whole thing some thought, when I came home the entries were all sitting there, would have had to post them that day, made the decision then and there to give it a miss.
> 
> The reason for my post here is because of the request above. Don't believe that this forum serves any purpose or has any involvement in the comp or in disseminating of results. The committee and judges will decide when and where results are posted, this is nothing other than a forum for discussion and for airing opions.
> 
> ...



Good, now you've got that off your chest, I hope you feel better.


----------



## Screwtop (5/12/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Good, now you've got that off your chest, I hope you feel better.




Haaah, yes thanks :lol:


----------



## Fatgodzilla (5/12/07)

Screwtop said:


> Haaah, yes thanks :lol:



that's why we gotta love ya !!!


----------



## browndog (5/12/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Good, now you've got that off your chest, I hope you feel better.



Screwy did very well in the QABC and for him not to have entered his beers has only lessened the quality of the comp. Not having a reply from 3 emails is just down right disgusting and I don't blame him for not entering. But once again, as with the other legitimate posts it has been ignored. If you have anything to do with the IBUs Fatgodzilla, I would be discussing Screwtop's lack of replys in your post mortem of the comp.

regards

BRowndog


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## capretta (6/12/07)

beachy said:


> yes it probably was a stupid comment but my point was that it is a national comp with STRICT qualifacation rules and delivery deadlines and as such the entrants might expect the courtesy of a detailed explanation of the many problems that have obviously occurred directly from the organiser on or very close too the origional finnish date not second hand after much prompting.
> having said that i agree complaining is not achieving anything and i WILL wait PATIENTLY



strict entry rules ensure an even playing field. of utmost importance i believe. i thought also that a detailed explanation had been provided, mainly a lack of experienced judges. we could have just sent them down to a local pub if we were in a unethical hurry, but we are spending up to 4ish hours on 15ish beers, so there is a lot of discussion involved for best possible results.

as to the *MANY* problems that have *OBVIOUSLY* occurred, well, simply its a lack of experienced judges with available time. with the close timing of nsw state and nationals it takes a lot to rack up "beer credits" with the mrs to spend days "on the piss"..you guys can come across as a little impatient, glad beachy see beachy chillin 

im sorry screwtop didnt receive the replies that he was after, he probably sent them to ray who is very busy at the mo and maybe a little curt, probably best for him to say, but retrospectively what would you do? hand the replies over to fat godzilla and me? who both have spent time answering questions but have never been involved in organising a national comp before??

2 flights were completed tonight and there is one more in the pipe for this week, results will be posted early next week.

as for "stigma for years to come"... drama worthy of shakespeare.


----------



## lonte (6/12/07)

Thanks for the frank and open updates ... exactly the ticket and I will now happily (and silently) wait until next week before whining on again 

Just a quick question - how might the Best of Show (assuming there were plans to do one in the first place) be done now? If highest point scoring beer then easy - if there were plans to have a BoS round then ... ???

Cheers!!


----------



## AndrewQLD (6/12/07)

Screwtop said:


> Simply had difficulty getting a reply from the organisers re some category questions I had and the entry deadline was fast approaching. Received an answer from Jye in the form of a post in this thread, but preferred a "from the horses mouth" reply from IBU. When I did receive a reply after 3 requests it was basically "look for yourself the information is there" thought Noice! maybe they have employed the services of some offshore, no care centre to handle replies. Changed my mind on entering based simply on that response, a sensitive little petal I know. But my personal opinion was that if this was the attitude portrayed by the organisers, then I really didn't want to be involved. I went away for a few days and gave the whole thing some thought, when I came home the entries were all sitting there, would have had to post them that day, made the decision then and there to give it a miss.
> 
> The reason for my post here is because of the request above. Don't believe that this forum serves any purpose or has any involvement in the comp or in disseminating of results. The committee and judges will decide when and where results are posted, this is nothing other than a forum for discussion and for airing opions.
> 
> ...



Hi Srewy,

I am very dissappointed to hear that your entries never got sent to the AABC, you had some exceptional beers that would have placed highly and I am sure taken a few trophies. 

I thought I answered the question for you in this post here but I can understand your wanting confirmation from the IBU organisers to confirm you were doing the right thing. 

Sad day for Queensland brewing when one of the stars of the State competition missed out on entering the National due to a communication breakdown. More lessons learnt here I think.

Sorry for your disappointment Screwy.

Andrew


----------



## Fatgodzilla (6/12/07)

lonte said:


> Thanks for the frank and open updates ... exactly the ticket and I will now happily (and silently) wait until next week before whining on again
> 
> Just a quick question - how might the Best of Show (assuming there were plans to do one in the first place) be done now? If highest point scoring beer then easy - if there were plans to have a BoS round then ... ???
> 
> Cheers!!



There was never any intention of a BOS being conducted as a seperate tasting event. This was discussed following the NSW titles if you want to read those threads. Based on my experience stewarding at the state and nationals and this is my opinion only, not that of the IBUs, the State or National bodies, just this big fat bloke's opinion, contestants would need to supply (say) two 600ml bottles (minimum) to have a second bottle suitable for judging. Some contestants supplied 2 375ml stubbies but at a pinch (and my assessment only) a bigger sample is neded to judge. Some contestants did and it shows that the system can work, albeit with a few more handling, storage and cooling problems as well as freight costs for the individuals, but yes it can be done. In the end only a small fraction of the second bottles are needed for a seperate BOS so these would either drunk at the end of the day social drink or taken home by someone to be drunk later. I have a few from both the state and nationals which I am going to use to test myself in upcoming BCJP studies (along with the NSW Xmas case swap). But as the majority of entries were single 750 ml bottles, clearly no second testing was done. That done, and you have to trust me (cos I was there) when I say that the judges made sure that they marked the beers knowing that BOS "status" and that is what it is "status" only, was on the line. Given these two things, you know that if a BOS status is granted, it'll be earned. 

Good brewing


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## capretta (6/12/07)

best of show will be calculated as the beer with the highest point score. 
not ideal as you will have different judges, doing different flights with different thresholds of marking.. 
but one thing i will say, the beer that wins will be a great beer, have no fear of that.

maybe down the track, the rules should be changed to only permit 2x 750ml (would 2x375ml be enough?) bottles to allow for a true best of show round? then you add delivery and setup complexities.. is it worth it? 

smarter men than me can figure that out...


----------



## capretta (6/12/07)

damn my fat slow fingers!! fat godzilla beat me again!!


----------



## Fatgodzilla (6/12/07)

capretta said:


> best of show will be calculated as the beer with the highest point score.
> not ideal as you will have different judges, doing different flights with different thresholds of marking..
> but one thing i will say, the beer that wins will be a great beer, have no fear of that.
> 
> ...




Good to see you awake. I hope you caught a bus home last night. 375ml stubbies a little too small in some cases where the judges want to have a real good look - in most cases fine, but let's not get cute. 600ml minimum x 2. You know what I mean by all the extra problems storage and cooling but eventually, I see it as a necessary part of the process. Other events do so.


----------



## floppinab (6/12/07)

capretta said:


> Been reading this thread with some interest. The root of the issue I believe is here. To organise two major comps within, what 4 or 5 weeks of each other, tightly shouldered up against the silly season is a big ask for anyone. From a judging perspective I know a number of the Sydney guys that made it down for the NSW Champs had most definately exhausted any credits for the nationals and although personally I tried to talk up a day trip down the Bulli for the family but the time of year beat me.
> 
> I think the powers that be need to look closely at the timing of these events for the coming years.


----------



## Screwtop (6/12/07)

AndrewQLD said:


> Hi Srewy,
> 
> I am very dissappointed to hear that your entries never got sent to the AABC, you had some exceptional beers that would have placed highly and I am sure taken a few trophies.
> 
> ...




Thanks Andrew, no dissapointment, looking forward to making better beers and entering again next year. Haven't been entering comps for years so probably ask some stupid questions of the organisers, want to make sure I get my entries right. I take it that Ray says what he means, and he asked for queries to be sent to him via the link on the ibunion.org site. Sent my queries to Ray at [email protected] as requested and after not receiving a reply, posted in this thread hoping Ray would see that I had emailled him. 

The last email (below) was sent on Wed 24/10/07 maybe someone who has access to the email account could check and see if the emails actually arrived.



> Good morning Ray,
> 
> Can you please clarify for me,
> 
> ...



As I said, can't unscramble eggs, so lets get on with making beer for next years entries.

Brew Happy B)


----------



## Stuster (6/12/07)

floppinab said:


> Been reading this thread with some interest. The root of the issue I believe is here. To organise two major comps within, what 4 or 5 weeks of each other, tightly shouldered up against the silly season is a big ask for anyone. From a judging perspective I know a number of the Sydney guys that made it down for the NSW Champs had most definately exhausted any credits for the nationals and although personally I tried to talk up a day trip down the Bulli for the family but the time of year beat me.
> 
> I think the powers that be need to look closely at the timing of these events for the coming years.



+1 to this. I was another one who judged at the state comp, but couldn't make it down for the nationals so soon after. The timing with the elections was unlucky as well. I also didn't enter my bitter into the nationals for reasons as Doc - not having received the score sheets from the first one, and just a lack of time to get them in.

I certainly appreciate the time and energy it's taken to run these two comps, and I'm certainly not blaming those involved who are taking lots of their free time to get this finish properly. :beer:


----------



## capretta (6/12/07)

screwtop, i thought the spirit of the competition would have given you the answer to that question.


----------



## Screwtop (6/12/07)

capretta said:


> screwtop, i thought the spirit of the competition would have given you the answer to that question.




Sorry, Capretta another dumb question, what do you mean, answer to what question?


----------



## bigfridge (6/12/07)

capretta said:


> would 2x375ml be enough?



A good approach is to only take about 25-30 mils per taste and you only need to do this 2-3 times so 300 mls should be fine for a table of 3 judges with some slops left over for the stewards.

We mainly had 2 x 330ml bottles at the Bitter & Twisted competition and it all worked fine - one for judging on the day and a 2nd bottle for the seperate BOS round a week later.

2 x 330ml take up much the same space and weight as 1 x 750 ml so the comments about extra space being needed for storage etc are a bit of a furfy.

David


----------



## capretta (6/12/07)

screwtop,
Are entries restricted to the same class/sub class in which placings were received?

well, surely you would only enter the same beer in the nationals which won in the state comp. why would you qualify a beer then enter another completely different beer? would you feel comfortable doing that? what sort of comp would you have if every one decided to enter a stout instead of the pils/belgian/old ale that they qualified with. it would seem obvious to me that there is a little flexibility in the rules so as to not exclude those who through misfortune/act of god do not have another bottle of the same beer that placed in the state, not for people to use a loophole to enter whatever they wanted. 






bigfridge said:


> 2 x 330ml take up much the same space and weight as 1 x 750 ml so the comments about extra space being needed for storage etc are a bit of a furfy.
> 
> David



furfy? the comments i made about storage space applied to 2x750ml bottles only. it was common opinion at the state comp the 375ml bottles were not enough. my post was made to encourage debate about the entry requirements. while your other comments are helpful im sure everyone know the relative sizes of 375/750ml bottles.


----------



## berapnopod (6/12/07)

bigfridge said:


> We mainly had 2 x 330ml bottles at the Bitter & Twisted competition and it all worked fine - one for judging on the day and a 2nd bottle for the seperate BOS round a week later.



David, I was on the BOS table and can tell you there certainly was not enough of the BOS winner for us in just one 330ml bottle! There was just enough to get the judging out of the way, but then nothing left to relax and unwind on. 

I suggest all future BOS rounds require at least a six-pack to be sent in 

Berp.


----------



## Screwtop (6/12/07)

capretta said:


> well, surely you would only enter the same beer in the nationals which won in the state comp. why would you qualify a beer then enter another completely different beer? would you feel comfortable doing that? what sort of comp would you have if every one decided to enter a stout instead of the pils/belgian/old ale that they qualified with.



Was confused about the sub categories, certainly wouldn't enter a stout in a pils category. 



Screwtop said:


> Haven't been entering comps for years so probably ask some stupid questions of the organisers, want to make sure I get my entries right.


 


capretta said:


> it would seem obvious to me that there is a little flexibility in the rules so as to not exclude those who through misfortune/act of god do not have another bottle of the same beer that placed in the state, not for people to use a loophole to enter whatever they wanted.



Geez Louise, that's a bit OT

Keep it lite huh, The defensive and offensive nature of some replies in this thread kind of lead me to believe I had a win by not entering :lol: 

As previously stated I'm not disappointed, and would like to see things lighten up a little.


----------



## capretta (6/12/07)

sorry!  point taken! i got the feeling you were being deliberately obtuse..
i just took the rules to mean you entered the same beer, unless the organisers/post office broke your bottle or something else out of your hands (not that it was too nice for you not to drink it all) so therefore you would be only allowed to enter the same beer, unless the organisers asked you to send another for whatever reason.

i am happy to sit out this thread until results are posted, cause until that time i feel a bit like me and fat godzilla have the weight of national expectation on us, and can lead to me posting a bit defensive.. 

catch ya next week cool bananas! B)


----------



## Jye (6/12/07)

capretta said:


> i am happy to sit out this thread until results are posted...
> 
> catch ya next week cool bananas! B)



Arrrgggh, next week  :lol:


----------



## PostModern (6/12/07)

I think the best thing for everyone to do from here is wait for next week. Cam has pointed out that judging will be concluded shortly and the results posted next week. Ray and his helpers will get the paperwork out of the way early next week, so results and score sheets will be posted shortly after.

I think we've all learned a little something from this experience. A large part of the problem has certainly been the quantity and quality of the entries. Over the past month, we've had to handle the logistics of 165 (+??) entries, comprised of nearly 200 bottles, store them well (none of them have ever been sitting in the sun or in someones shed, they've all been kept refrigerated at all times since receipt by the IBUs), move them to the judging venue, etc, there has been a large amount of paperwork and data entry involved for capturing the entrants' details, scores, flight sheet preparation, etc etc. It's been a mammoth task, performed by a small group of dedicated brewers who knew they didn't have the time or resources but kept to task anyway. As Dave said, it's being done by volunteers, not employees, so please bear that in mind.

It should be known that some of the logistic the problems with judging the Nationals were anticipated some months ahead of time, and an alternative judging body was sought, but no-one else put up their hand to take on the job, so it stayed with Ray, who, as has been previously mentioned, is severely over-committed at this time. So please cut Ray and the other organisers some slack. He's well aware of the anxiety some of you are going thru, but really, what is there to do for you now but sit and wait? The judging is almost over, the scoring is all tabbed up barring the final flight, so it's nearly over the line.

Godzilla and Cam have had a tough time here stemming the tide of complaints and enquiries. Please give them a break too.

I would also like to say that the beers I helped judge last night were great. The quality of the entries is unreal to see. I'm sorry that Screwtop, Stu's and Doc's entries were withheld, as they would doubtlessly have lifted the quality of the field even higher. Homebrewing in Australia is going ahead in leaps and bounds. It's great to see our craft going so well. Now let's not let a few organisational hiccoughs in the Nationals put a damper on that for future events. Many of the beers I tasted last night were of or better than commercial quality. I would have bought a six-pack of many of them and been more than happy.


----------



## GMK (6/12/07)

PoMo,

if you were judging the Strong Ale category - then i had 2 entries in it;
~ English Barley Wine, &
~ American Barley Wine.

Hope that you enjoyed them.


----------



## Snow (6/12/07)

GMK said:


> PoMo,
> 
> if you were judging the Strong Ale category - then i had 2 entries in it;
> ~ English Barley Wine, &
> ...




All full of oak chips, no doubt, Ken?  :lol: 

Cheers - Snow


----------



## Insight (6/12/07)

Can I summarise for people not wanting to read through 1 million posts?

Entrants: Where's these results then?
Organisers: We're had a few problems with volunteer judges, so we're not done yet. We're doing our best, hang in there.
Entrants: For christ sake, where are these results, they were due a week ago?
Sympathisers: If you can do a better job, put your hand up next year you bloody layabouts.
Organiser: Abuse of site sponsor for no apparent reason.
Judges: Sorry about this, we really are doing our best.
Zen Dudes: The results will come, Relax guys!
Entrants: Jesus, this is getting ridiculous.
Non-entrants: I didn't enter my beers because of lack of communication / no response from NSW comp.
Bouncers: Well.....HTFU. I ridicule your literary ability.
Everyone: An uneasy, jokey truce seems to have fallen over the forum...

No apologies if I have missed out individuals or mis-represented people - this is my impression after reading. I thought homebrewers were the layed back types? Its not WW3 :chug: RDWHAHB


----------



## GMK (6/12/07)

Snow....

How GOOD are you.....

The English Barley Wine was aged in oak barrel for 3 months.

The American Barley Wine had none...


----------



## chris.taylor.98 (6/12/07)

<sever rant waring>

After lurking on this thread for some time and holding my tongue, after have a few tonight I can no longer hold back.

I disagree with previous posters saying now is not the time and this is not the place.

We're all pissed off and feed up ... and we want answers ... who's to blame. Lets light the torches and get marching.

Now lets see, a bunch of volunteers put up there hand to organise our fine national competition, and for some reason it seems to all go pear shaped. 

Results are not out the nano-second we want them so it easy isn't, we just blame them. We'll just whinge and complain and snipe until we have torn them down to size and "got it off our chests". That will solve it!

But wait, they are volunteers, who have taken this on in good faith, and they are trying to do the right thing by making sure all the flights are judged properly (I know by now I would be tempted to cut some corners for the sake of getting it over with).

... and they can't really be blamed for John Winston Howard calling an election on the same day (guess we have already taken care of that problem  )

... so what is the real problem here

well lets see, X number of flights to judge and much less then X x 3 judges ... hmmm ... OMG, not enough available judges! How could that be? Not enough judges!

So here's the crux of it. After being involved in several competitions now, it seems to almost always comes down to not enough judges. 

People go on and on about the crap quality of there feedback, the time it takes to get results back, the poor organisiation blah blah blah.

Well I say don't get angry, get even. Come and make sure its done properly. Come and watch and learn how its done. You don't have to be a champion brewer to judge.

Come and help steward.

Offer to be a fourth non scoring judge if you really are not sure, but just come and participate.

Until we have more people involved in this process we will always be having these problems. Sure the comp has not been run perfectly, but which one is? But if they had a bigger pool to draw upon we would never be in this situation.

As an aside, I have to say that judging is a fantastic way of broadening your brewing experience. You will come across some of the best of beers and some of the worst of beers. 

You also have a group of dedicated individuals that have so much knowledge to learn from, and in judging the gloves are off. Its none of that pussy footing around pretending that the beer is ok when you really just want to spit it out. 

Don't know your diacytel from your acetic acid? Wouldn't know a phenol if it jumped and bit you on the arse? Well by the end of judging a couple of sessions you know all this and more.

So the what is the REAL problem here? The one that we can all do something about to FIX the situation? We are the problem, and we are also the solution. Get off your arse and get involved, so that next time you won't have to be fretting about the time it takes for a competition to be run.

</sever rant waring>


----------



## PostModern (6/12/07)

Thanks Chris. It's good to see that someone outside the group can understand and sympathise.

UPDATE: Some dedicated volunteers pulled together tonight and went through judging the last category. Stay tuned.

GMK, I did help judge the Barley Wines. I remember one that was Oakey, but we don't see any names on the beers, so I can't even give you a hint of how you scored, as I don't know.


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## GMK (6/12/07)

PostModern said:


> Thanks Chris. It's good to see that someone outside the group can understand and sympathise.
> 
> UPDATE: Some dedicated volunteers pulled together tonight and went through judging the last category. Stay tuned.
> 
> GMK, I did help judge the Barley Wines. I remember one that was Oakey, but we don't see any names on the beers, so I can't even give you a hint of how you scored, as I don't know.




That was not the intent - but i hope mine was the Oakey One


----------



## PostModern (6/12/07)

GMK said:


> That was not the intent - but i hope mine was the Oakey One



I'll be willing to bet it was the oakey _one_


----------



## Stuster (7/12/07)

Great post, Chris. :super:


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## Ray_Mills (7/12/07)

Results
http://ibunion.org/
Cheers
Ray


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## Duff (7/12/07)

Chris Taylor said:


> <sever rant waring>
> 
> After lurking on this thread for some time and holding my tongue, after have a few tonight I can no longer hold back.
> 
> ...



Quoted so people can read it again.

Bravo.


----------



## Fatgodzilla (7/12/07)

Chris Taylor said:


> <sever rant waring>
> 
> :angry: :angry:
> 
> </sever rant waring>



Yeh CT - you said a few things I've would have liked to have said over the past weeks but was being very diplomatic by avoiding. See you in Melbourne in 2008 at the convention / nationals 

:beerbang:


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## /// (7/12/07)

We can look at what went wrong for this particular comp or we can consider what is wrong with a historical perspective with the (dis)organisation of the AABC/AABA.

Unfortunately much of what is wrong with the AABC/AABA as an organisation has one simple cause - Power.

Nothing has changed in the last 8 or so years, my faith therefore is not strong....

Scotty


----------



## mikem108 (7/12/07)

Bloody pace of life, technology, internet etc. has made everyone so impatient these days, people all want answers NOW NOW NOW and I'm sick of it. It happens to me at work all the time. People send emails and if they are not answered immediately they'll phone you, leave a voice mail and whilst you are listening to their voice mail and trying to type an response to the email they'll be phoning again :angry: 

Sometimes its just better to sit back "zen" out and not sweat it, take a deep breath "relax and have a homebrew"


----------



## andrewg (7/12/07)

Stuster said:


> Great post, Chris. :super:



As other have said, fantastic post Chris. Apart from the occasional entry into the comps and recognising that these events must be a massive undertaking for the volunteer organisers, I was blissfully unaware of the the shortage of judges for comps. I would be more than happy to get involved - and would even consider doing the BJCP if there was a course in Melbourne. 

I had no probs in waiting for results and was pleasantly surprised when they were posted yesterday - BTW congrats to you too!
cheers
HaigStBrewery


----------



## Ross (7/12/07)

Yes, it was a good post by Chris & hopefully brewers will take action & start getting involved.
We certainly are up in Brizzy.  

But I wonder how many actually read this thread, with all the unnecessary crap that's been hurled around.
NO-ONE complained about the time taken to get the results out, infact there was total support for taking time & getting it right - The ONLY complaints came from lack of feedback & that could so easily have been avoided...

Anyway, back to brewing  


Cheers Ross


----------



## andrewg (7/12/07)

HaigStBrewery said:


> BTW congrats to you too!
> cheers
> HaigStBrewery



You, as in Chris Taylor - well done!
cheers
HaigStBrewery


----------



## Paul H (7/12/07)

The true tragedy will be if nothing is learnt from this experience.

I suspect that there is more at play in this instance than would appear & that some individuals have become "Bitter & Twisted". 

I would suggest those that believe they are interested in what's best for the craft evaluate their actions.

I also urge people to think before rushing forward & offering their services as a volunteer steward or judge, remember you are making a firm committment. Organisers of competitions rely on the good faith of volunteers to effectively run these activities. 

If you have a habit of being half-arsed in following through with your committments then don't bother offering your services. Organisers need to recognise these potential issues before they become problems.

Lastly I object to people using "volunteer" as a get out of jail card when things don't go well. If you committ to doing something then you ARE responsible. I find it remarkable that when things go well there's no shortage of posts backslapping & smoke blowing organisers but the minute things turn bad there's the "don't blame me I'm just a volunteer" post, with several more back slapping posts for the "victim".


----------



## Fatgodzilla (7/12/07)

Agree with Paul H on all but the following




Paul H said:


> Lastly I object to people using "volunteer" as a get out of jail card when things don't go well. If you committ to doing something then you ARE responsible. I find it remarkable that when things go well there's no shortage of posts backslapping & smoke blowing organisers but the minute things turn bad there's the "don't blame me I'm just a volunteer" post, with several more back slapping posts for the "victim".




No one hid behind the "volunteer" label to avoid responsibility. The "we are extremely F#*&ing busy at the moment so will finish the job when we can, please have patience and we will get (all) the results out as soon as we can" was what was said. 

It was all the people defending the said busy people who played the "volunteer" card. I thank them most sincerely for their support.


----------



## /// (7/12/07)

Paul H said:


> The true tragedy will be if nothing is learnt from this experience.
> 
> I suspect that there is more at play in this instance than would appear & that some individuals have become "Bitter & Twisted".




Maybe less bitter and more tired at the record getting stuck in one place every year. Well thats my perspective, with some of the new delegates involved for next year I have no doubt change will occur. I hope so....

Being involved in comps for the last few years the pleasing thing is the advance in quality of the beers as a whole. No doubt aussie brewers are stepping up the quality and all the brewers should be congratulated for getting to the Nationals and again for the place getters. The rest of the business needs to follow the entrants lead.

Scotty


----------



## etbandit (12/12/07)

Congrats to place getters, organisers, judges and stewards! 

Wondering if Full Results are available?


----------



## Fatgodzilla (12/12/07)

etbandit said:


> Congrats to place getters, organisers, judges and stewards!
> 
> Wondering if Full Results are available?



Yes. Full results of who came first, second and third. 

The rest .. will get there score papers and if they wish to publish the comments and score, they are quite welcome to. But no, the scores of those who did not get a placing will not be published on any site anywhere. EOS.

On behalf of organisers, judges and stewards  thank you etbandit for your kind words.


----------



## bconnery (12/12/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Yes. Full results of who came first, second and third.
> 
> The rest .. will get there score papers and if they wish to publish the comments and score, they are quite welcome to. But no, the scores of those who did not get a placing will not be published on any site anywhere. EOS.
> 
> On behalf of organisers, judges and stewards  thank you etbandit for your kind words.



I have a question, and let me state right from the beginning I am after clarification and in no way looking to pass judgement or intentionally stir the pot, even though I get the feeling that has the potential to happen. 
This also isn't necessarily a question for fatgodzilla, even though I am replying to his post...(Although if you know the answer FG feel free  )
Is the decision to not post all results a decision in the hands of the state body running the comp, and I believe NSW makes it clear they never will publish beyond places, and that is fine, or is this a change in the practise of the AABC? In previous years, at least since 1999, the full results have been published. 
This may have even been outlined in the rule changes, aims etc of the AABC and I've missed it...
I don't have an issue if the answer is that it is up to NSW, and they choose not to, I don't have an issue if the AABC says we now don't, I'd just like to know...

I'll also admit that I am totally motivated by extreme stickybeakiness when I ask this question even though FG said end of story...


----------



## bigfridge (12/12/07)

bconnery said:


> I have a question ...
> 
> Is the decision to not post all results a decision in the hands of the state body running the comp



bconnery,

From my reading of the rules the AABA does not seem to have any requirement to list the positions of all competitors.

"D6. Judging. ... Completed judging/score sheets will be
returned to the brewers within three weeks of completion of judging."

"D11. Privacy. Personal information (names, addresses, and other contact details, etc)
provided by brewers on the entry form will only be used for the conduct of the competition.
This information will not be released to third parties, other than the names of brewers, which
will be published in the results lists for the competition."

So the only reference that I can see to the release of results is to get them back to the entrants within 3 weeks (note that this is 3 weeks from the END of judging, not the START) and that 'results lists' will be published - but the rules do not define if this is the full set of results or just the placegetters.

Where the rules do not cover the situation for each competition, rule D7 allows the local organising committee to make up its own rules:

"C7. AABC Decisions. Where it is necessary for the successful running of the AABC, the
local organising committee is authorised to make decisions on issues not previously agreed
upon by the AABA. Such decisions should be guided by the other AABC rules, the Aims of
the AABA and, where possible, the views of other AABA delegates."

In this case I would say that the organising committee (ie Ray) is so exhausted and behind with all his other private affairs that this rule has been applied.

David


----------



## Paul H (12/12/07)

bigfridge said:


> bconnery,
> 
> From my reading of the rules the AABA does not seem to have any requirement to list the positions of all competitors.
> 
> ...



Firstly I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on television but the way I interpret the rules.

C7 would be applied where the rules are silent, however D11 makes it clear what information will be collected, what information will be kept confidential & specifically excludes brewers names "which will be published in the results lists for the competition."

As it is not necessary for the successful running of the competition & the rules are not silent on the publishing of names I find it hard for the organisers to rely on C7, even if one were to be exhausted.


----------



## bconnery (12/12/07)

I found all that info but was left with the same conclusion. It appears that it is up to the state body, as the "results list" line could be interpreted to mean only the placegetters in my book. 

Anyways as I said, I was just after clarification and being nosy, it isn't really that important in the grand scheme of things, although it might be to some. 

Id tell myself to relax and have a homebrew but I'm not worried, so I'll just have a homebrew instead


----------



## dr K (12/12/07)

And we'll all be lonely tonight and lonely tomorrow


----------



## Keith the Beer Guy (12/12/07)

Paul H said:


> C7 would be applied where the rules are silent, however D11 makes it clear what information will be collected, what information will be kept confidential & specifically excludes brewers names "which will be published in the results lists for the competition."


I think rule D11 is amibugous. The 'names of the brewers' might be construed to only apply to the names in published results. 

I suspect this was not the intention of the rule, but genuinely believe it's open to intrepetation. 

Keith 
NSW AABA delegate


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## GMK (12/12/07)

I for one are disapionted that no Full results will be published.

Since 1999 they have published both Full and Summary.


----------



## capretta (13/12/07)

at the risk of getting involved in this thread again, i dont think ray was against publishing the full list for the nationals, just the state. more than likely a full publication will be made but the best way to check i reckon would be the ibu website contact address


----------



## beachy (13/12/07)

at the risk of again offending some NSW people and being called a troll,
can someone please explain why there has been a sudden change in the interpetation of the rules after 8 years of full results being published :huh: 
i cannot possibly see any GOOD reason for this.
i certainly dont care if my 2 entries came last and everyone knows about it  
i DO care though that i dont get to compare my results to other people in that category
it is after all a home brew COMPETITION which means everyone is compeating against each other and deserve to see how they ranked compared too others
withholding the full results list is a backward step that dosnt help the credability of this comp and if anyone is going to be offended that people know they had a bad result then they just dont enter, people cant expect the adulation that comes with having thier winning score published but then expect any poor scores kept secret 
as was pointed out to me earlier in the thread it is ''just a home brew comp,chill out'' 
so if it is just a homebrew comp can we please see a full list of results some time when Rays got the time to post them


----------



## Maxt (13/12/07)

I don't really care if results are published, but the argument that they should not be published for privacy reasons seems a little weird. If you are shy, easily upset, or want anonymity........don't enter a public HB competition.
I actually learned a good deal from last year's results, (compared what yeast brewers used etc).


----------



## /// (14/12/07)

I dont think that ego is the issue, as said back in the thread it is more what can go wrong with your personal info. I have unfortunately had an issue from my previous work life with a client and the moral of the story is that one should not just assume when it comes to items as such.

So it is more just taking a moment of care and thinking about things, as unexpected things can happen...

Scotty


----------



## browndog (14/12/07)

beachy said:


> at the risk of again offending some NSW people and being called a troll,
> can someone please explain why there has been a sudden change in the interpetation of the rules after 8 years of full results being published :huh:
> i cannot possibly see any GOOD reason for this.
> i certainly dont care if my 2 entries came last and everyone knows about it
> ...



I'm with Beachy here, I entered two beers and I could not give a hoot if they came last, just to be included in only my second competition is an honour for me. As for the privacy thing, that just does not gel with me, peoples names are everywhere on the internet. Maybe the full results could be made to competitors on an individual basis, it is bollocks not being able to compare your score with other competitors.

cheers

Browndog


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## Fatgodzilla (14/12/07)

> at the risk of again offending some NSW people and being called a troll



A Merry Xmas to you all.

Edit : More trolls - make a great avatar wouldn't it !


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## chovain (14/12/07)

/// said:


> I dont think that ego is the issue, as said back in the thread it is more what can go wrong with your personal info.



But everyone entered with the hope that they would get a place. If they got a place, then their name would have been published anyway. 

I think it would be a sad day when any kind of national-level competition decided to drop the transparency that comes with publishing results of all of the competitors.


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## beachy (14/12/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> A Merry Xmas to you all.
> 
> hilarious FG
> how does treating people with arrogant contempt help the credability of the national comp? :angry:
> ...


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## Stuster (14/12/07)

I agree it would be best to publish them, beachy. It was also an issue for the state comp, with a few people saying they'd prefer it the full results published. But I think you are getting a bit too heated about this. It's really not such a big issue either way IMO, but if the people who did organise it this year thought that was the way to jump, then I guess that is their right according to the regulations. If you want that changed (and I do too, and so do a few others), I'd guess we have to get out there and contact our state reps and get our voices heard that way. Then things can change for next year. In fact, looking back at the thread, I don't think that there necessarily has been a decision not to publish the results, so maybe it'd be better to relax, send an email to Ray Mills and the IBUs, and see what happens. It'll probably work better for you than getting all irate. RDWHAHB mate. :icon_cheers: 

BTW, I think that Mark Chovain has an excellent point. Surely all entrants have given implied consent by entering. :huh:


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## Oblomov (14/12/07)

To change the subject a bit. So what's the price money for a third place in one of the categories? I need to know: x-mas shopping is coming up.

Seriously, do I get some tangible evidence (e.g. a certificate or so) or should I frame the PDF?


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## browndog (14/12/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> A Merry Xmas to you all.
> 
> Edit : More trolls - make a great avatar wouldn't it !



Keep it up mate, with every post your reputation grows


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## Tony (14/12/07)

I just wrote a big post airing my thoughts but deleted it as i didnt want to get AHB bullied 

This a FORUM !!! people have opinions and thoughts and if calling them names to keep them quiet when they are speaking up for something they believe in is whats it come to, im ashamed to be part of it....... it has resorted to bullying and thats pathetic....... even for CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for my opinion on posting results........ I came dead last by score last time i entered the national comp and it didnt wory me that the rusults were posted. 

no cheers this time folks :icon_vomit:


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## goatherder (14/12/07)

I hear you Tony, this is not cool.

I suspect part of the problem here is that this is *not* the official forum for debating such matters. AHB may be the biggest homebrewing forum in the land (is it even?) but it doesn't represent all Australian homebrewing. As such, the AABC people have no obligation whatsoever to report anything through this channel. They don't have to answer queries from here, and if they are smart, they are probably not even reading. If you have a query, send it to the comp organisers or your state AABA rep rather than spin your wheels here.

Keeping this in mind, we are getting all hot under the collar arguing about something that there *hasn't been any official word on, yet*. This should be a total nonargument yet people want to keep chucking spears at each other. Insanity.


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## lonte (14/12/07)

AHB forum members,

I have sent the following e-mail to what I believe is the official AABC 2007 e-mail address, I will post any reply I receive here:

From: Lonte
To: '[email protected]'
Cc:
Subject: AABC 2007 Full Results

Gday,

Could you please advise if and when the full results of the AABC 2007 will be published on the AABC website?

Many thanks


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## Fatgodzilla (15/12/07)

> a large group of brewers from all over australia have taken the time and effort to enter THE NATIONAL comp and deserve to know how they ranked amongst their peers all that is published is name,state of origin and beer score NOT exact address phone no. and photo ID <_< once again this is the NATIONAL comp NOT local NSW comp so what gives a tiny group (possibly only one person) the right to hijack the comp and change the rules interpretation as they go along :angry:
> comments such as results will not be published EOS are just arrogant self important crap so instead of smart comments about not feeding trolls lets hear these GOOD reasons for non publication or please publish the results as a group of the entrants seem to want




Male penis  Brewing Championship envy

.." the phrase "penis AABC results envy" or "small penis mindedness syndrome" is also sometimes used to describe the envy of a male over another male's penis. AABC results. Although this subconscious or conscious envy may solely be based on the idea that a larger penis  higher score is universally more satisfying and appealing to a sexual  drinking partner, other implications arise from the fact that a large penis  higher result has been seen in many cultures as a symbol of high masculinity, dominance and power. While this whole matter has probably always been a part of human psychology, recent developments have made the issue slightly more public in the western world.AHB forums.

The mediaforum attention given to penis size  AABC unpublished results and some women competitors being vocal in their opinions of penis size  their score have led some men to state their envy of others with larger penises.a score, whether larger or smaller..., 

Men can underestimate the size of their own penises, self importance and knowledge or rules of etiquette.


Edit : Source Wiki


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## DanRayner (15/12/07)

This is ridiculous. What's the difference between publishing the names, scores and states for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and publishing the names, scores and states for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc?

It's not like they would be publishing phone numbers, internet banking details, TFNs, date of births, and medicare numbers!

I, for one, am curious to know what sort of ranking my American Pale Ale got as it narrowly beat my California Common to win ACT Beer of Show and yet it didn't get a place in the AABC - not complaining, just curious to see how it was placed in the Nationals.

It is clear that all of the Nationals entries were good beers - they had to be as they were placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd in the state comps - so why would people have a problem with how they scored in the AABC? They were all great beers it's just some had to be better than others...

What about having a check box on the entry form for "name to be published?" and then when the results roll around all those who didn't check the box could have "name withheld" and then their state on the results?

this is kooky - it's just an amateur beer competition, it's not like anyone should really care that much...

Dan


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## oldbugman (15/12/07)

What about a nameless list of scores?

so you can pick your score out of a list.

heck even, Score, beerstyle, no name.


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## Zizzle (15/12/07)

goatherder said:


> I suspect part of the problem here is that this is *not* the official forum for debating such matters.



This may be a stupid question, but what is the offical forum? I hope the answer isn't private emails.



> As such, the AABC people have no obligation whatsoever to report anything through this channel. They don't have to answer queries from here, and if they are smart, they are probably not even reading.



No, if they we smart they would be here making a good impression, inspiring new people to enter the comps, keeping the existing competitors happy, and just generally managing everyones expectations.

It should be an advertising opportunity. Coming across here as a bunch of prima donna's simply because it is not the "official" forum does not help anyone.


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## Chad (15/12/07)

DanRayner said:


> This is ridiculous. What's the difference between publishing the names, scores and states for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and publishing the names, scores and states for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc?


I understand that by not publishing the non-placegetters names that there is some protection of identity so the lower rankers don't feel bad publicly. But like you said, they had to be all fairly good beers anyway.



OldBugman said:


> What about a nameless list of scores?
> 
> so you can pick your score out of a list.
> 
> heck even, Score, beerstyle, no name.


While a score and feedback is great, it is also good to know how it did against the other entries. I'm sure my one and only entered beer didn't do too well, but I certainly don't have an issue with people seeing that.
I really like the idea of the nameless list so we can match our points to it. Anonymous, but still useful.


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## beachy (15/12/07)

Stuster said:


> I agree it would be best to publish them, beachy. It was also an issue for the state comp, with a few people saying they'd prefer it the full results published. But I think you are getting a bit too heated about this. It's really not such a big issue either way IMO, but if the people who did organise it this year thought that was the way to jump, then I guess that is their right according to the regulations. If you want that changed (and I do too, and so do a few others), I'd guess we have to get out there and contact our state reps and get our voices heard that way. Then things can change for next year. In fact, looking back at the thread, I don't think that there necessarily has been a decision not to publish the results, so maybe it'd be better to relax, send an email to Ray Mills and the IBUs, and see what happens. It'll probably work better for you than getting all irate. RDWHAHB mate. :icon_cheers:
> 
> BTW, I think that Mark Chovain has an excellent point. Surely all entrants have given implied consent by entering. :huh:



yes good points

the very important leason i have recently learnt is that just because someone says ''on behalf of '' doesnt really mean that thier comments have any validity or that they have any right to infer that they are officially representing the organisors :huh: 

so hopefully the official response will be to post full results as many people seem to want  or at least a very good reason why this comp has to be different to every other comp


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## beachy (15/12/07)

Zizzle said:


> No, if they we smart they would be here making a good impression, inspiring new people to enter the comps, keeping the existing competitors happy, and just generally managing everyones expectations.
> 
> It should be an advertising opportunity. Coming across here as a bunch of prima donna's simply because it is not the "official" forum does not help anyone.



the best post in 13 pages


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## Maxt (15/12/07)

goatherder said:


> ....
> 
> Keeping this in mind, we are getting all hot under the collar arguing about something that there *hasn't been any official word on, yet*.



Seems that F.G has been speaking (unofficially?) for the organizing committee though, goatherder. 



Fatgodzilla said:


> Yes. Full results of who came first, second and third.
> But no, the scores of those who did not get a placing will not be published on any site anywhere. EOS.



That statement is a world away from.."nothing has been decided".
Anyway, looks to me like heaps of votes for publishing all results, bugger all against...


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## capretta (15/12/07)

goatherder said:


> I suspect part of the problem here is that this is *not* the official forum for debating such matters.
> ... They don't have to answer queries from here...* they are probably not even reading.* If you have a query, send it to the comp organisers or your state AABA rep rather than spin your wheels here.
> 
> ...Keeping this in mind, we are getting all hot under the collar arguing about something that there *hasn't been any official word on, yet*. This should be a total nonargument yet people want to keep chucking spears at each other. Insanity.



+1 Sweet voice of reason B)



lonte said:


> AHB forum members,
> 
> I have sent the following e-mail to what I believe is the official AABC 2007 e-mail address, I will post any reply I receive here:
> 
> ...



+1 Sweet hand of reason B)


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## goatherder (15/12/07)

Zizzle said:


> This may be a stupid question, but what is the offical forum? I hope the answer isn't private emails.



Not a stupid question at all. I assume your state AABA rep via private email.



> No, if they we smart they would be here making a good impression, inspiring new people to enter the comps, keeping the existing competitors happy, and just generally managing everyones expectations.



100% agree with you.



Maxt said:


> Seems that F.G has been speaking (unofficially?) for the organizing committee though, goatherder.



It certainly does seem that way and if it were official it would be a little troubling. I hope this is not the case. Personally, I am treating anything regarding the 2007 AABC which is* not* from Ray Mills as *not* official. From this viewpoint, everything is pretty straightforward really.


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## Fatgodzilla (16/12/07)

> Seems that F.G has been speaking (unofficially?) for the organizing committee though,



If people wish to conclude from my threads that I have been speaking for the organising committee, then I best say now that I have no authority, specific or implied, to speak on behalf of the AABC 2007, the AABA or the IBUs. When the world was venting its spleen on the issue of delayed results, I stepped in, firstly to inform that patience was needed, secondly to inform of why things went into a second week of judging. I did so on my own, without any direction or encouragement from others. If anyone construed that this was an official publication of the AABC 2007 organising committee, I apologise for the error. 

When the second phase of this thread concerning the results came out, I again was errant in my judgement. I should not have mentioned the placegetters only *EOS* I had no authority to say that and I apologise for the mistake.

Let's get this clear, I am not and never have been an official voice of the AABC 2007 committee, nor do I have the right or did I intend to be or intend to be the unofficial voice of the AABC 2007. 

That said, I am proud to have been part of the 2007 AABC and have seen first hand the tremendous amount of hard work done by Ray and his team to organise the comp. Only those who have organised similar events can understand what has been done. To have this effort belittled by the rants of a small handful of forum members who are assuming they have the right to whatever they think right is what has me angry. It is my opinion that you do not have the right to demand a damn thing except that which was promised, that your beers would be treated properly, presented as best as could be, at correct temperatures and that the judges would do their best to judge them properly to the BJCP guidelines. That end of the bargain was met. You cannot demand more. Lonte's approach was best. "Ask" I've no idea if and when an answer is coming because that is out of my hands.





> Anyway, looks to me like heaps of votes for publishing all results, bugger all against...



Six for, one against and a few opinions that didn't say yeh or nah but had their two bobs worth. That means close to 100 competitors are silent on the issue. Barely conclusive. 

Good brewing .


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## blackbock (16/12/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> If people wish to conclude from my threads that I have been speaking for the organising committee, then I best say now that I have no authority, specific or implied, to speak on behalf of the AABC 2007, the AABA or the IBUs.



The silence from the organising commitee has been deafening, at least in comparison to what some vocal individuals have contributed. FGZ, if you have not any authority to speak, then why have you been so vocal? Just sit back and listen to what some of the entering participants have to say. People are not happy and they are trying to get some kind of response from the organisers, not some apologist who may be keen, but misguided in his defence. Now I know why I shun this sort of amateur competition - a love of beer is one thing, but getting worked up about nothing is just ridiculous.


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## Oblomov (16/12/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> That said, I am proud to have been part of the 2007 AABC and have seen first hand the tremendous amount of hard work done by Ray and his team to organise the comp. Only those who have organised similar events can understand what has been done. To have this effort belittled by the rants of a small handful of forum members who are assuming they have the right to whatever they think right is what has me angry. It is my opinion that you do not have the right to demand a damn thing except that which was promised, that your beers would be treated properly, presented as best as could be, at correct temperatures and that the judges would do their best to judge them properly to the BJCP guidelines. That end of the bargain was met. You cannot demand more. Lonte's approach was best. "Ask" I've no idea if and when an answer is coming because that is out of my hands.


Hear hear.
As a general response to the other posters above: I would appreciate if people here speak for themselves and stop projecting their own complaints on others. I am an entering participant and I am happy. I am also grateful to the organisers/judges/whatever for the (undoubtedly) countless hours of their spare time they have spent to make this competition happen. However, I am a bit embarrassed by all the unreasonable ranting going on in this thread.


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## Weizguy (16/12/07)

Fatgodzilla said:


> <abbrev>
> Six for, one against and a few opinions that didn't say yeh or nah but had their two bobs worth. That means close to 100 competitors are silent on the issue. Barely conclusive.
> </abbrev>


Even though I am 3 of those 100 competitors, I am aware that my voting bloc is quite small (though not insignificant).

I am not remaining silent, just silent on AHB.

I will be contacting Keith, who is my local delegate, and providing some feedback, as requested yesterday at the HAG case swap.

This whole palaver means so much to me that I have not even bothered to check the results. I'm sure that I would have been contacted if I had a significant result (some might call it a win).

I was going to use a metaphor about dogs walking around, sniffing each others butt and growling, but continuing to go around and around...but I'm obviously above that sort of crudeness. :lol: 

Can we have this thread closed? Please?

Les W


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## lagerman (16/12/07)

I think this is my first post.
I have read with interest all the comments on this thread.
May I make a few suggestions to you all please?
I run the Bathurst Comp. and have done so for the past 10 to 12 years with great success. As far as I am concerned we have a set of rules - like classes and catagories and we only publish the first three place getters and two highly commended. We have a closing date and a set fee and most of the things that all other comps. have.
In my opinion rules are rules regardless of who ever is running a homebrew comp. If I wanted to run a comp. with only Kit made American Pale Ales then that is up to me. If no one enters then that is my bad luck.
Please give whoever is running a homebrew comp. a pat on the back for having a go. Don't just be critical if something happens that you don't like. By all means lets have "Constructive Critisism" and we can all take something on board.
Let's give Ray and his crew a pat on the back. They organised and run 2 comps. right on top of one another.
For some reason we have never copped any flak over the Bathurst comp. We are not changing it as "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
I have nothing against the BJCP but we are not adopting it as I don't have the time to re do all the paperwork.
In closing please all of you out there on the forum, give the organisers of a comp. (Whether it be a National Comp. or a country show) some more support and get out and give these guys a hand. Homebrew Comps are meant to be fun and run to a set of rules. I never hear anyone complaining because the can't enter a Hyundai Getz in the "Bathurst 1000".
All competitons have rules so lets support them.
Thanks for reading.
Lagerman - more commonly known as the Bigfella.


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## Ross (16/12/07)

:icon_offtopic: 

Welcome to the forum Lagerman & Happy Birthday

Cheers Ross


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## dr K (16/12/07)

Hi Bigfella..

two things:

1. Its not just your size that gives you that particular moniker.

2. Bathurst has been known in the past to create statesmen, the tradition continues!!


Kurtz


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## winkle (16/12/07)

Yup , happy birthday dude ( and change your name to *LARGER *man - it'll save confusion :lol: )


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## Ray_Mills (21/12/07)

Hi all
Well.........where do i start, lets try the beginning eh, a long post for those that want to read.

The state competition in 2004 had a real problem as know one really was interested to run it, so I had a chat with Mel Robson from ESB and he suggested I give it a go as it might never ever happen again.

The IBU's and myself ran the NSW competition in 2004 in the garage of Tim Thomas rented house, it was a real entertaining experience as we lost a bottle and it was never found, I think Tim knocked it over and was not game to tell a soul. At the end of the judging over a period of some weeks to get it all done the results got out and everyone was happy, the brewer who lost the bottle really understood what had happened and took it in his stride. no complaints from him. It was don't worry have a home brew.

The following year 2005 we decided to run the competition at Five Islands Brewery, due to the current laws we could only judge in the morning till 12 noon and the competition was run over 3 weeks, The afternoons were great as the bar was open and we had a taste from the judging in the morning. Results went out and we had help from the Hunter Brewers at the time and it went very smooth.

In 2006 the hunter brewers ran the competition with great success but had a bad time from some members from the AABC committee with BJCP guidelines. All of a sudden it was starting to become serious, from some very serious brewers around Australia. At the end of 2006 I put my hand up to run the NSW and Nationals in conjunction with the Hunter Brewers. Not a problem as they can come down as we went up for the judging.

In the mean time a member from the AABC committee started getting very nasty and abusive to the NSW organisers and the Hunter brewers about BJCP problems. so they pulled out as they did not want to be involved with the committee and some of its members. So I said put me on the committee and let it go from there.

Being a member of this committee involed 100's of emails to get the BJCP Guidlines to suite Australian Conditions and come up with some results.

In the mean time, mid this year I got involved in a new business, so did my right hand man the hunter connection and my local Right hand man and the other had twins which would slow anyone down. The problem with my new business was I had to design some very important work to be constructed in Fiji and at this present time it is still going on, and it meant long, long hours, most nites till 11pm.

With this work load and some serious help gone I thought it through and it was too late to find anyone to run the NSW Competition. The Nationals was a real worry, so 2 months before I set the date for the Nationals I emailed the AABC committee that i might be will be struggling to run the nationals due to my current new work loads and could someone else do the job.

The response was "we only have 2 months to organise it" so I was left with doing it the best I could.

I have given the full results to the Organising Member of the AABC and have let him publish the full results if he wants too on the AABC site, in the mean time all Certificates have been printed and the score sheet will be sorted to brewers this weekend and all posted on Monday.

I am sorry I could not respond to postings as I have said I have to put my time to other important things at the moment.

At the end of the day, all competitors will have their results, all being judged by BJCP judges wanting to get their points up, the score sheets are very constructive and good evaluation of your beer. I think this forum and its members should have a hard think about who runs these competitions and whats involved, if you have never run one before, have a long think about it before you start complaining things are a little late. Just an example, I have had to read and answer over 300 emails, if i missed yours tough.

BTW who wants to run the NSW in 2008 and cop the abuse, just a warning, the fun is not there any more, bugger eh
Cheers
Ray


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## browndog (21/12/07)

Hi Ray,
I've read you post and as a first time competitor in the AABC, would like to thank you for your efforts. I get the impression that you have had too much on your plate and you have done you best to run the AABC. I would however, ask that before you judge the guys here on this forum , and particularly early in this thread, and you will see that all people were asking is _what is happening?_ there was no criticism, no derision., just competitors asking for some information. I think things started to get ugly no thanks to the belligerant comments from Fatgodzilla, and to a certain extent Capretta did not help much. This whole thread would have been negated with a couple of early comments from the organisers. 
Once again I thank you and the other IBU guys for your efforts. 


cheers

Browndog


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## floppinab (22/12/07)

browndog said:


> I think things started to get ugly no thanks to the belligerant comments from Fatgodzilla, and to a certain extent Capretta did not help much.
> cheers
> 
> Browndog


Belliger_e_nt???? I would suggest that there were others who were out for some blood on this thread. FGZ particularly and cap seemed pretty defensive, descriptive and reasonable in their posts.


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## browndog (22/12/07)

floppinab said:


> Belliger_e_nt???? I would suggest that there were others who were out for some blood on this thread. FGZ particularly and cap seemed pretty defensive, descriptive and reasonable in their posts.



Go back and read the thread at the start Floppinab (as I said above) then tell me I'm wrong mate.


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## Screwtop (22/12/07)

Ray_Mills said:


> All those that have any questions could you please email me at the email address on the web page, please do not PM me here as I have limited messages like all of you and if its full i might not get the message
> Cheers
> Ray



I did as you requested Ray, twice.



Ray_Mills said:


> I am sorry I could not respond to postings as I have said I have to put my time to other important things at the moment.



I'm sure the comp was very important to the competitors, this is a bit of a slap in the face for them.



Ray_Mills said:


> I have had to read and answer over 300 emails, if i missed yours tough.



Reading your post through I felt for you Ray, having to manage business, the comp and flack from the forum. Until I saw this sentence!

Surely you could have delegated responses to emails due to workload. I'm sorry that you feel castigated Ray, but I feel that such a response from a judge and committee member to be in pretty poor taste.


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## Darren (22/12/07)

Hey guys,

As I said in an earlier post, the simplest way to overcome this problem in future events is to assign everyone a "competitor" number. That way all the results can be posted and if YOU wish to tell everyone you came last, then YOU can.

Big heads up to the guys who took their OWN PERSONAL TIME (unpaid) to run this comp and have their heads chopped off by a bunch of whinging idiots.

cheers

Darren


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## capretta (22/12/07)

browndog said:


> _what is happening?_ there was no criticism, no derision., just competitors asking for some information. I think things started to get ugly no thanks to the belligerant comments from Fatgodzilla, and to a certain extent Capretta did not help much. This whole thread would have been negated with a couple of early comments from the organisers.
> Once again I thank you and the other IBU guys for your efforts.
> cheers
> 
> Browndog


geez browndog laying it on a but thick arent you? id like to know how i inflamed to thread and also id like to know if you consider comments made by you mate screwtop purely "no critisism no derision", let me refresh your memory..

screwtop
"For mine the judging seems pretty ordinary and has suffered from lack of proper planning. That being said there is nothing anyone can do now so it's pointless going on about it. I am sorry for all of the entrants who have strived so hard, this national comp will no doubt result in some stigma being attached to the results for years to come. It would have been much nicer for entrants to have had results published without such controversy."

these are the comments that p**ed me off, the guy never attended or even thought it worth while to enter! the lack of informed comment made me make the decision to withdraw from the thread and just PM those who i considered reasonable individuals if i thought it neccesary.


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## redbeard (22/12/07)

is it time to lock this thread ?

or should we amend the title to append 'the magic pudding thread' :lol:


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## /// (22/12/07)

redbeard said:


> is it time to lock this thread ?
> 
> or should we amend the title to append 'the magic pudding thread' :lol:



Sounds like a top idea...


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## capretta (22/12/07)

time to open "Australian Amateur Brewing Championship 2008" 

any takers?

ps browndog and i have PMd, no dramas there.. B)


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## Weizguy (22/12/07)

/// said:


> Sounds like a top idea...


Seconded retrospectively here

*Please*, moderators???

Les out


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## Stagger (22/12/07)

For what it is worth, I was lucky enough to win Champion Brewer for the second year in a row and my good friend Dan won BOS as well, yes the comp had some problems however according to one of the judges from Canberra Ross Mitchell the quality was very high. Lets just move on and look forward to Melbourne 2008, I can only pass on what has been said here in Canberra, a bit more communication would have stoped the bad press in its steps. 
I for one have not met Ray but I am looking forward to meeting him one day, he has been around the craft brewing seen in Australia for a long time and I for one are concerned at some of his comments about the fun not being there cause thats what I do it for.

Anyway hope you all have a merry Christmas and a great New Year may you next beer be you best.


Cheers

Craig


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## PostModern (22/12/07)

I think Stagger's post is a good note to end this thread on. Now all of you just relax, have a homebrew, think back on this thread and remember, it's just beer.


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