# Fermentor Infection, Sh*t



## mje1980 (3/8/11)

A week or so ago, i pitched a fresh wyeast into a batch of mild. When i went to top crop, the krausen was much smaller and less dense than usual. Hmm. I kegged it and pitched a batch of bitter with a new wyeast. Same thing happened. Hmmm this is odd, so i dumped it, and gave the fermentor a good sodium percarb soak, and then soaked it in an iodophor solution that would sterilise a hospital. I pitched the 3rd fresh wyeast, after making a starter to make damn sure i had lots of fresh healthy yeast ( the starter had a nice thick krausen ). Today i check it and see the same small, loose head. I drew a sample, and it had the same smell as the other 2. F*cken spewing. Im off to bunnings to get a new fermentor. Damn it!!

If its not the fermentor, i'll have to start pulling stuff apart, :angry:


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## bignath (3/8/11)

*inserts INCORRECT! game show buzzer sound.....

Bad luck mate, that must really suck.

On the bright side though, at least you know next time around it won't be the fermenter, and all things being equal, you'll get some beer.


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## mje1980 (3/8/11)

I've had this fermentor for probably 5 years with no drama's. Had a couple of failed batches but could always attribute them to other causes, like a cube not sealed properly, old yeast etc. Frustrating to lose 3 fresh wyeast pouches too!!

Im hoping like hell its the fermentor, otherwise it'll be a pain to trace back!


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## petesbrew (3/8/11)

mje1980 said:


> I've had this fermentor for probably 5 years with no drama's. Had a couple of failed batches but could always attribute them to other causes, like a cube not sealed properly, old yeast etc. Frustrating to lose 3 fresh wyeast pouches too!!
> 
> Im hoping like hell its the fermentor, otherwise it'll be a pain to trace back!


That really sucks man. Declare chemical warfare on your brewery. All the best.


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## petesbrew (3/8/11)

mje1980 said:


> I've had this fermentor for probably 5 years with no drama's. Had a couple of failed batches but could always attribute them to other causes, like a cube not sealed properly, old yeast etc. Frustrating to lose 3 fresh wyeast pouches too!!
> 
> Im hoping like hell its the fermentor, otherwise it'll be a pain to trace back!


That really sucks man. Declare chemical warfare on your brewery. All the best.


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## QldKev (3/8/11)

If I ever get an infection in a cube of fermenter I always just chuck it, first time. 1 batch of beer costs as much as the cube/fermenter so to me it's not worth stuffing around. 

QldKev


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## mje1980 (3/8/11)

I would too kev, but i didn't taste the first one til the 2nd one was fermenting. It wasn't totally disgusting, but just had an odd flavour, and seemed to have none of the malty goodness im used to in my beers. Just seemed on the dry/thin side, with a funny after taste. I left it, but after tasting a hydro of the second batch, i re tasted the first kegged batch. Yup, no change, clear as mud, so i dumped it. I figured i'd fixed it with my super sterilisation regime, but, same shit on batch 3.


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## Cortez The Killer (3/8/11)

Sodium percarb is good for cleaning but not so much for sanitising 

I'd be inclined to fill it with water and give it a good dose of bleach and leave it 

But a new one is pretty cheap insurance

Cheers


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## flano (3/8/11)

I luckily haven't had any infections so far.
My mate who is a scientist and who also brews told me right from the start not to use anything but a soft cloth to clean the inside of the fermenter.
Even a dishwashing brush could scratch the plastic leaving a little spot for infection to grow.

I aways leave a couple of litres of pink stain remover in the fermenter between brews.
I make sure the tap has been flushed with it thoroughly as well.

The I clean it all again before I use it...even though it would be virtually sterile.

yep ...ditch the fermenter.


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## under (3/8/11)

Blame the new place mark


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## mje1980 (3/8/11)

Cortez The Killer said:


> Sodium percarb is good for cleaning but not so much for sanitising
> 
> I'd be inclined to fill it with water and give it a good dose of bleach and leave it
> 
> ...




I use the sod perc as a cleaner before i hit it with iodophor gino. The iodophor pretty much kills everything hehe. 

And i also add sodium metabisulphate as a "dry" sterilant when im not fermenting. I dont rate it as a steriliser, but i have heaps, so i throw some in between brews. I've accidentally breathed that in before, and i can say that it is powerful stuff haha

Got a new bunnings fermentor now, about to hit it with the sod perc soon. Along with anything from my brewery that will fit into a bucket hahaha

Yeah shane, i blame the new house. Bloody new house !!!


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## DU99 (3/8/11)

do you use a lid and have you replaced your tap..there germ breeders


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## mje1980 (3/8/11)

Whole thing is being replaced now!. 

WHile i have the HLT going, im starting on all empty cubes too. Time to get chemical on these mofo's


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## mje1980 (5/8/11)

:angry: Pitched a cube into my new fermentor with dry US05. 

Guess what??

















ITS F%CKING INFECTED TOO!!! :angry: 

Its a strong medicinal smell. Very p&ssed off.

Ok so, now all cubes ( and my NEW fermentor ) are being hit with bleach + vinegar, and all little things associated with it that can fit into a bucket. I must say this is demoralising, and im verging on paranoia. F^CK F%CK F#CK!!

Im not sure how i got the same infection in 2 different cubes, so the boiler tap is soaking too.


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## QldKev (5/8/11)

I'd have a few more swear words than that.

Was the cube from the same batch?

QldKev


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## pocketdelight (5/8/11)

hoooley doooley. sounds worse than when kids come home from school with a note about head lice~! 
newbie question ... what's a cube?
is Soda Ash (pH of about 11) any good as a steriliser?


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## Gar (5/8/11)

mje1980 said:


> ITS F%CKING INFECTED TOO!!! :angry:
> 
> Its a strong medicinal smell. Very p&ssed off.



Ouch :blink: 

Sorry to hear that mate, I'd probably be in the ER getting my knuckles stitched up if that was me!

Hope you nuke the little buggers :angry:


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## QldKev (5/8/11)

pocketdelight said:


> hoooley doooley. sounds worse than when kids come home from school with a note about head lice~!
> *newbie question ... what's a cube?*is Soda Ash (pH of about 11) any good as a steriliser?



:icon_offtopic: Cubes are basically square food grade jerry cans. You pour your wort in hot and seal it up to allow it to cool and then get stored ready for use.

Here's 3 having a swim in the man pool (it was summer)






QldKev


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## barls (5/8/11)

If you want to get serious about killing the little fuckers. I recommend sodium percarbonate, sodium metasilicate the hot caustic. If it survives that it deserves to be there. 

Another hint Is to sanitize the outside of the cube before pitching also don't forget to clean the tap thread on the fermentor


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## eamonnfoley (5/8/11)

Take apart your ballvalve on your kettle, and if your using a plate chiller (appears you are not given its a cube), that will probably be the culprit. 

Also, check the integrity of your cubes. Poor quality ones can leech chemicals into your wort VERY EASILY. Try chilling a batch. Or better still put some hot water in a cube overnight and taste it the next day.


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## Hatchy (5/8/11)

foles said:


> Take apart your ballvalve on your kettle, and if your using a plate chiller (appears you are not given its a cube), that will probably be the culprit.
> 
> Also, check the integrity of your cubes. Poor quality ones can leech chemicals into your wort VERY EASILY. Try chilling a batch. Or better still put some hot water in a cube overnight and taste it the next day.



The only cube infection I had was due to a bit of wort in the hosetail on the kettle.


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## mckenry (5/8/11)

mje
Apologies if you've already stated this - just skimmed the thread.
Are your starters good? smell & taste? Equipment used to make starter clean? Or are you just picthing those smack packs directly?


Edit - forget that - just re-read and saw your bit about dry US-05


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## cdbrown (5/8/11)

Do you take the fermenter /cube taps completely apart? Lots of nasties grow in there and I've found soaking alone doesn't kill them all off. They need to be taken apart for a thorough clean and don't forget the thread on the fermenter as well as bugs like to sit in there.


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## mje1980 (5/8/11)

Cheers guys, the cubes are different batches. They have all had 25+ at least ( 2 years old some ) brews each, no dramas. Just out of the blue i've got an infection somewhere. I use sod perc to clean, then iodophor to sanitise, never had a problem, and never had a "bug" in my brewery. 

Frustrating!!


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## drew9242 (5/8/11)

I have the exact same problem at the moment. Mine are all good right up till the end of fermentation. Then it all turns to shit. I have had 2 bad batches and now am waiting on the third, it seems to be ok i will check in a couple days. This all happens just as i was getting confident that i had it down pat. F%$ it is annoying.


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## pimpsqueak (5/8/11)

cdbrown said:


> Do you take the fermenter /cube taps completely apart? Lots of nasties grow in there and I've found soaking alone doesn't kill them all off. They need to be taken apart for a thorough clean and don't forget the thread on the fermenter as well as bugs like to sit in there.



How do you pull the damn things apart? I tried but had zero success.


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## Glenn Brown (5/8/11)

QldKev - Hat's off to you and you'r man pool. That's impressive.


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## cdbrown (5/8/11)

pimpsqueak said:


> How do you pull the damn things apart? I tried but had zero success.



The handle of a wooden spoon fits into the back of the tap. Make sure to turn the tap half way. Hold the body of the tap (nozzle part), have the spoon end on the ground, push the tap body towards the ground.


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## pimpsqueak (5/8/11)

cdbrown said:


> The handle of a wooden spoon fits into the back of the tap. Make sure to turn the tap half way. Hold the body of the tap (nozzle part), have the spoon end on the ground, push the tap body towards the ground.


Cheers. I shall have at the bastards in the morning.


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## glassgrenade (5/8/11)

A friend of mine had some recurring infections. He got a 44 gallon drum (with a lid) and put all his fermenting gear in there and the cubes. Then he filled it up till everything was covered with water and tipped a thing of caustic soda in there (in the cleaning section of woolies), it all got an overnight soak. Then he drained the water and gaveit a soak in napisan overnight. Cleared his infection right up. NOw what he doe is once a month each fermenter goes into a drum with napisan, that way the inside AND outside get cleaned. Cubes get stored with napsian in them. Storing cubes with sodium metasilicate in them just leads to mould for some reason.

Anyway i've adopted the same practices, i'm a pretty lazy brewer but its not that hard to give the fermenters a soak once a month, they come out sparkling. I've even done it with an infected fermenter and it bounced back fine*.

Also, your problem may not even be infection, bandaids is from chlorine isn't it?

*EDIT~ Pretty sure using a fermenter after its been infefcted is not good practice, probably one of those things that might work sometimes and won't work others. Just thought i'd add that if any newbie kit brewers read that.


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## hoohaaman (5/8/11)

Were they no chill cubes without swelling?But become infected after transferring to fermenter and inoculating?


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## manticle (5/8/11)

mje1980 said:


> :angry: Pitched a cube into my new fermentor with dry US05.
> 
> Guess what??




I've had a couple of spates of infections that have been very frustrating. One particular flavour I'm fairly certain I can relate to a wild yeast that grows on the property.

I've developed an insane sanitation regime and thrown every cube and fermenter that has been infected and still had the infection (not every brew - maybe one in 3 or 4).

To isolate the problem, I've taken to fermenting in the no-chill cube so clean cube + wort + yeast should be all good. Again - one in three/four/eight whatever - house infection. Frustrating. That's happened in cubes that have been used once before with beer that worked a treat.

More recently, I've questioned my starter vessels. I had one erlenmeyer and if that was busy, I used juice PET bottles. I've now thrown my Juice bottles and bought more erlenmeyers and maybe coincidentally have had no troubles since.

I think glass demijohns and glass starter vessels is eventually where I hope to get.

Anyway, upshot of that - have you looked at your starters or your starter vessel to see if that could be the cause? If not, maybe try a side by side with a plastic fermenter and a glass demijohn.

Also try brewing/fermenting at a mate's place.


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## [email protected] (5/8/11)

Maybe try alcohol in your sanitation regime, 99.9% ISO, wipe everything down with it, it cant be used no rinse for inside cubes, fermenter ect.

Also try spraying glen 20 around in the air prior to any transfers, after cooling your wort ect.


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## Brewman_ (5/8/11)

I too am having an infection issue, not quite as severe though.

With all the things you have tried, I would go back to the absolute basics. Get yourself a Kit and try and brew a kit. If you can you know that your environment, & your plastics are OK. If you can't, and you get the infection then you know you can focus on that rather than you cubes, starters, ball claves, racking hoses etc.

I nearly gave up a few years agonbecuase of this problem, but you can get on top of it.

Fear_n_loath


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## Bizier (5/8/11)

Beer4U said:


> Maybe try alcohol in your sanitation regime, 99.9% ISO, wipe everything down with it, it cant be used no rinse for inside cubes, fermenter ect.
> 
> Also try spraying glen 20 around in the air prior to any transfers, after cooling your wort ect.



After finally venturing into plate work last night, I sprayed the room with Glen 20 only to later read that the active ingredient is 60% (can't remember by weight or vol) ethanol. F*ck me, I had to sit in a room that smelled like my deceased grandparents' houses for no reason, I had a spray bottle of 70% vol metho that I was using to spray everything else with.

Perhaps see if you can get your hands on some peracetic acid based sanitiser to switch it up a little.

ED: I haven't disassembled my kettle outlet for yonks, but you could try disassembling all bits like this that you can get into a pressure cooker and sterilise them in case there are little colonies in them with ideas of greatness.


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## bevdawg (5/8/11)

I had some major infection issues the past 6 months... I tried everything, bleaching 2 times, drying, sanitizer etc and still they kept happening. Best advice I received was from the guys at Grain&Grape just grabbed me a new fermenter, said here you go, throw everything else out. I've replace all my plastic equip with new. Starters in a flask, focus a lot more on sanitation, and also on surrounds... so no longer empty my no chill or kettle into the fermenter in the kitchen where the heater blows constantly, and where lots of crusties hide no doubt and do it in the spare room where nothing is going on... and I've been fine ever since. I lost 3 batches to infection... and I could have just bought some new gear and saved $ in the long run.

My next step is fermenting in kegs. More of a closed loop in the process, and stainless so if something ever goes wrong I can sterilie them and reuse unlike plastic which needs to be thrown out...


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## hoohaaman (6/8/11)

bevdawg said:


> I had some major infection issues the past 6 months... I tried everything, bleaching 2 times, drying, sanitizer etc and still they kept happening. Best advice I received was from the guys at Grain&Grape just grabbed me a new fermenter, said here you go, throw everything else out. I've replace all my plastic equip with new. Starters in a flask, focus a lot more on sanitation, and also on surrounds... so no longer empty my no chill or kettle into the fermenter in the kitchen where the heater blows constantly, and where lots of crusties hide no doubt and do it in the spare room where nothing is going on... and I've been fine ever since. I lost 3 batches to infection... and I could have just bought some new gear and saved $ in the long run.
> 
> My next step is fermenting in kegs. More of a closed loop in the process, and stainless so if something ever goes wrong I can sterilie them and reuse unlike plastic which needs to be thrown out...




Unless the said plastic is 20 years old and cleaned with a wire brush,there is no need to dispose of plastic after an infection.

There is no infection caustic or bleach wont solve.But feel free to spend money on new plastic against $2 for bleach or caustic.Have never had an infection that chemical didn't resolve,within reason of suitable containers.

I have used 30 year old canoe/raft drums as fermenters with no problems.The infection source makes all the difference how to approach brewery treatment.Once you have had a major infection you do things differently but with more of an understanding if you find the cause.

Finding the cause is the most important process.Even if the next few brews are clean


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## goid (6/8/11)

Hi All,

I also have been having issues with infections for the last year up until the last couple of batches. I went through and replaced taps, vinegar+bleach fermentor. Still was getting infected brews. What I was finding at the end, was that my first hydro sample tasted properly without signs of infection. But the following samples tasted like crap.

I finally sourced my issue to not using a sanitised hydro and hydro jar. I started spraying (starsan) the tap, hydro and hydro jar before every sample taken.
)
Problem solved, so far......

My advice would be check and elimate (sanistising) any possible source of infection from getting in contact with your brew.

You CAN get rid of infections from an infected fermentor without replacement.

Hope this can help someone isolate there infection source.

Cheers


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## reVoxAHB (6/8/11)

Is it possible to chill 1 batch, skip your cubes and go straight into your fermenter? 

If the beer is not infected, it's a cube issue and you know the ferm is OK.

Is it possible to borrow a glass carboy or ferment in adapted keg? You can still no chill & transfer to new [email protected] pitch. 

If the beer is not infected, you know it's your ferm.

You can also chill and go straight to borrowed fermenter, and if you still wind up with infection you need to be looking at all of your cold side sanitation. Consider swapping the iodophor for saniclean, 80/20 metho in a spray bottle. Clean and sanitise your fermentation fridge thoroughly. That sort of thing. 

Cheers


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## RdeVjun (6/8/11)

Goid said:


> I also have been having issues with infections for the last year up until the last couple of batches. I went through and replaced taps, vinegar+bleach fermentor. Still was getting infected brews. What I was finding at the end, was that my first hydro sample tasted properly without signs of infection. But the following samples tasted like crap.
> 
> I finally sourced my issue to not using a sanitised hydro and hydro jar. I started spraying (starsan) the tap, hydro and hydro jar before every sample taken.
> )
> Problem solved, so far......


Goid, I presume you're returning hydrometer samples to the fermenter? If so, then don't, just discard it and that infection source problem should be solved! If not, then I'm struggling to see how a likely non- sanitary sample tube, hydrometer and tap exterior could be an infection source if it doesn't come into contact with the fermenting beer? :unsure: 
As you've highlighted, everything that comes into contact with the wort must indeed be sanitary, as per reVox keeping the surroundings clean (eg. fermenting fridge, benches etc.) will be helpful of course, while short cuts in sanitation inevitably leads to disappointment.


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## mje1980 (7/8/11)

Great info guys, if current plan fails I have a lot of other avenues to chase up. This fcken sucks!!!


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## mje1980 (8/8/11)

Ok, so, hopefully this week i'll do a single batch (not risking a double! ) of koelsh. Yup, that's right koelsh. If ever i will know i have even the slightest of infections, it will be when brewing a koelsh haha. If it happens again, hmm i dunno :huh: , I'll probably throw out all cubes for a start hehe. Wish me luck.


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## fergi (8/8/11)

QldKev said:


> If I ever get an infection in a cube of fermenter I always just chuck it, first time. 1 batch of beer costs as much as the cube/fermenter so to me it's not worth stuffing around.
> 
> QldKev




I TOO THINK THIS IS THE BEST PROCEDURE, IF IT STINKS CHUCK IT OUT STRAIGHT AWAY, DONT STUFF AROUND WITH AN OLD INFECTED FERMENTER.
oops caps still on.
fergi


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## eamonnfoley (8/8/11)

manticle said:


> I've had a couple of spates of infections that have been very frustrating. One particular flavour I'm fairly certain I can relate to a wild yeast that grows on the property.
> 
> I've developed an insane sanitation regime and thrown every cube and fermenter that has been infected and still had the infection (not every brew - maybe one in 3 or 4).
> 
> ...



Don't go the glass - too dangerous. Buy a better bottle - better than a plastic fermenter because it carries no odours etc. I never trusted the smells that the old plastic fermenters would harbour (rightly or wrongly, I dont care)


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## drew9242 (8/8/11)

Well i think i have my issues under control. I have been a cleaning nazi on Saturday, and done a Little fella pale ale to test it out. My infections issues weren't that serious though, 1 batch that i did keg is actually quite tasty at the moment. Not great but quite drinkable. Well hopefully this Pale Ale works cause i'm about to start a brewing some oktoberfest and i don't want them to turn to shit.


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## goid (8/8/11)

RdeVjun said:


> Goid, I presume you're returning hydrometer samples to the fermenter? If so, then don't, just discard it and that infection source problem should be solved! If not, then I'm struggling to see how a likely non- sanitary sample tube, hydrometer and tap exterior could be an infection source if it doesn't come into contact with the fermenting beer? :unsure:
> As you've highlighted, everything that comes into contact with the wort must indeed be sanitary, as per reVox keeping the surroundings clean (eg. fermenting fridge, benches etc.) will be helpful of course, while short cuts in sanitation inevitably leads to disappointment.



RdeVjun,

I don't return hyrdometer samples back to fermentor.  

On the brew that I realised my issue I had left it fermenting (untouched) using [email protected] for 2.5 weeks and it read at FG 1.008 (expected). This first sample was a clean/beer tasting sample. I then, next checked the brew 3 days later (still untouched besides first test) and this sample had lost all its hop flavour and tasted one flavour (bitter/tart) same as the other previous failed attempts. All these brews were different recipes. First bad ones were unhopped extract and boil's with hops, the last couple plain K+K.

I have read that the infectious bugs can't go up (essentially no way of going up the tap) but I have elimated everything else up until this, which has fixed my problem. My results might be unique but results all the same.

Cheers

Goid


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## Brewman_ (8/8/11)

hoohaaman said:


> Unless the said plastic is 20 years old and cleaned with a wire brush,there is no need to dispose of plastic after an infection.
> 
> There is no infection caustic or bleach wont solve.But feel free to spend money on new plastic against $2 for bleach or caustic.Have never had an infection that chemical didn't resolve,within reason of suitable containers.
> 
> ...



Hoohaaman, you may not have had an infection in plastic that chemicals did not solve, but I have and I believe others do too. I have had it once and I tried every sanitizer I could lay my hands on, and was very persistent throwing out 6 straight brews.
Plastic has a surface that even if you don'y brush heavily is not completely smooth. Chemicals can soak in, as too can bugs, over time. I think both are real issues, even if you don't have detectable infections, what chemicals may be building up in you plastic?
Fear.


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## mje1980 (10/8/11)

Ok, sorta changed my mind. I do an american wheat for my mate, so im gunna do a batch of that. Rather waste a US05, than my 2565 koelsh!. If it goes ok, i at least know that cube and fermentor is ok. All cubes got the same treatment so, hopefully i can get back into it. Hope so, i've just ordered a few more sacks of malt!


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## Gar (10/8/11)

Good luck mate!


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## mje1980 (10/8/11)

haha thanks mate!. I was going to sacrifice a virgin for good luck, but damn, i just can't find one!!


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## Golani51 (10/8/11)

Something I have been doing is to soak (with all bots and pieces in it)and clean out my fermenters with the right concentration of bleach (only need a little in cool water- not as effective in hot water I believe) and after a wash out soaking in Starsan and drying upside down on a piece of paper towel before storing cubes or fermenters. Only had one infection so far. Did a double batch of Knappstein, filled three cubes and one had an infection. Blew up in a couple days and nearly exploded. Remember to turn on side too after filling as the handle and cap need to be 'heat treated', but will contain air if not turned. 
I think the cap may be a prime suspect. The rubber cannot be easily removed without damaging it and creating more of a problem. I soak them in starsan too. If they do not seal 100%, they will suck in air during the cooling process. Squeeze the cube to ensure no leakage. I tossed my cube immediately. Anyone using wort kits should have plenty spare. 

Remember that too high a concentration of cleaner is a) a waste and B) not necessarily a better cleaner or may end up less effective. I used to load up on chlorine until I actually read up that you need only a tiny amount to do the job properly.


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## mje1980 (10/8/11)

I have just discovered that soaking my boiler tap in vinegar+bleach had damaged the seal in it!. When closed its ok, but when i open the tap, wort leaks out through tap handle. I'll probably lose a little wort when cubing, but its not too bad. Will have to replace it though.

I agree with the cube rubber seal, very hard to get out to sanitise.


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## Gar (10/8/11)

mje1980 said:


> I was going to sacrifice a virgin for good luck, but damn, i just can't find one!!








*sniff* sorry about that, I had a big weekend


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## mje1980 (10/8/11)

haha good one!. 

So its done, in the cube. Tomorrow morning, i'll pitch some US05, and in a few days i should know if im ok.


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## hoohaaman (10/8/11)

fear_n_loath said:


> Hoohaaman, you may not have had an infection in plastic that chemicals did not solve, but I have and I believe others do too. I have had it once and I tried every sanitizer I could lay my hands on, and was very persistent throwing out 6 straight brews.
> Plastic has a surface that even if you don'y brush heavily is not completely smooth. Chemicals can soak in, as too can bugs, over time. I think both are real issues, even if you don't have detectable infections, what chemicals may be building up in you plastic?
> Fear.



When "chemicals"(I used the term loosely) are used correctly most become inert in context to what regime is used.I'd be more concerned about the plastic.Especially,the wrong type,used for no chill and leeching.

Sorry about infections they suck,but the best sanitizer won't solve infections if the vessel isn't cleaned properly.

I was merely sighting an example contrary to others that was successful.Would I use it to save a few bucks?Probably not,but after spending money on new equipment I'm less inclined to trash it at first failure.I'll seek an alternative.


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## Synthetase (11/8/11)

mje1980 said:


> haha good one!.
> 
> So its done, in the cube. Tomorrow morning, i'll pitch some US05, and in a few days i should know if im ok.



If it's still got bugs in it, you could punish it by putting it through an autoclave. That'll teach it. 


Just don't use this one:


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## mje1980 (12/8/11)

WTF happened there?!!

Only early, but it looks like it might be gone. I pitched US05 yesterday morning, and this morning when i got home, it had a nice 1" krausen, and didn't have the distinct aroma the others did. Wont really know til kegged but it looks ok so far.

P.S who did a go halves with in the EKG, rexbanner?? I have a bad memory


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## Mobbee007 (12/8/11)

Either sponge John or mycle take your pick!!


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## mje1980 (14/8/11)

Ok, looks like im ok. Ready to keg the beer, and tasting as it should. I've kegged hundreds of beers, but this feels like a huge achievement haha. Now i can brew like a demon and re stock the cubes. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## WitWonder (14/8/11)

mje1980 said:


> Ok, looks like im ok. Ready to keg the beer, and tasting as it should. I've kegged hundreds of beers, but this feels like a huge achievement haha. Now i can brew like a demon and re stock the cubes. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!



You pitched on the 11th, and you're kegging 3 days later?


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## mje1980 (14/8/11)

WitWonder said:


> You pitched on the 11th, and you're kegging 3 days later?




Yup, 1.040, down to 1.008.


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## mje1980 (16/8/11)

Drinking my american wheat now. Yummo, it tastes like beer!!, very nice, non infected beer. Thank F&ck for that. I strongly suspect the cubes were the culprit. I now have a "sanitation" chart for all my cubes. I dont think they need bleach n vinegar after every batch, but they will get hit every 5 or 10 brews, on top of my normal cleaning/iodophor routine. Now i ran relax with a few pints!!


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## manticle (16/8/11)

Timely.

I just went to innoculate my ESB with some recultured british cask ale yeast. Shook up the cube to aerate, went to pour in my nice looking active starter, took a whiff and decided against it. Smells like my old friend Mr House infection. Luckily I had a pack of PC old ale in the fridge but that cube is now devoted to brett beers and is in the back shed away from my non brett stuff (PC old ale has some Brett in it).

I may also need to mash a very dextrinous wort and add that in at a later point. This one was about 1058 but I had hoped to use my old ale in a bigger beer, mashed higher.

Glad you seem to have sorted it mje.


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## mje1980 (16/8/11)

Thanks mate, the bleach+vinegar killed the shit out of it. I did all my cubes so when i work through all the other cubes i should know for sure.

Sounds like an interesting yeast that PC old ale yeast.


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## manticle (16/8/11)

I'll be able to tell you in about a year.


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## mje1980 (16/8/11)

Make sure you update us!


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## mje1980 (21/1/12)

Dirty MoFo is back . I've bought 2 new cubes, but i've also replaced my transfer hose. Not so sure it was/is the cubes. I find it pretty odd that different batches in different cubes can have the same bug. In the last batch i noticed the smell on the second day of ferment, so i think the bug is already in there before fermenting. Im starting to suspect something that's common to all the cubes, which is mainly the transferring hose. So, its gone now. Im still gunna bleach + vinegar it all again though. Im also gunna soak my boiler tap in Sodium Perc, then iodophor. Annoying, i went so long with no recurring infections ( like 5 years haha ), now twice in the last 12 months. Maybe im getting slack i don't know!.


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## bignath (21/1/12)

I had some trouble with a weird taste in my brews that was very inconsistent, nuked all my shit and it made no difference. Then i looked at my 12month old transfer hose, and thought, "bet that's where the problem is" (forgot to "nuke" the hose previously. had previously done my normal "cleaning" routine).

New transfer hose, no problems.

Hope yours is solved in a similar way.

EDIT: i reckon "Dirty MoFo" would be an awesome name for a stout or porter.... :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (21/1/12)

Sorry to hear MJ.

My old ale was transferred to glass for some more aging. Roughly 9 L wouldn't fit so I bottled that.

Never ended up minimashing anything extra to add but the old ale yeast didn't seem to take off - same gravity after several days, thankfully no infection. Added another yeast (forgot which - maybe 05), then later some orval dregs. Dry hopped with styrian goldings and put a minimash bag filled with citrus fruits and zest (blood orange etc) to soak in for a few months. Dregs from the fermenter while bottling were delicious - will be interesting to compare the bottled to the bulk aged.

Often I boil my transfer tube up on the stove with sodium percarb to help clean and sanitise. Silicon tube is great for this and cheap from gryphon brewing at the moment.

Infections are a massive pustulent lesion on the rim of Satan's arsehole.


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## Wimmig (21/1/12)

mje1980 said:


> Dirty MoFo is back . I've bought 2 new cubes, but i've also replaced my transfer hose. Not so sure it was/is the cubes. I find it pretty odd that different batches in different cubes can have the same bug. In the last batch i noticed the smell on the second day of ferment, so i think the bug is already in there before fermenting. Im starting to suspect something that's common to all the cubes, which is mainly the transferring hose. So, its gone now. Im still gunna bleach + vinegar it all again though. Im also gunna soak my boiler tap in Sodium Perc, then iodophor. Annoying, i went so long with no recurring infections ( like 5 years haha ), now twice in the last 12 months. Maybe im getting slack i don't know!.



No bleach, vinegar, iodophor, sodium perc. over dose will get the job done. More is not better. Do it all with starsan. As per the levels needed. 0 infections and counting.

Obviously it's a process combination of equip cleaning and steri. Though, i'm yet to go wrong. I clean with either PBW or babies napisan, and steri with starsan. For all smaller parts, tap parts, coupler hardware etc it goes into the sonicator from time to time, then flushed, then steri, then rebuilt.


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## mje1980 (21/1/12)

Infections are a massive pustulent lesion on the rim of Satan's arsehole. 

Haha too right!. Cheers for the update.

Hmmm my iodophor is around 4 or so years old, and i thought i read it does lose its effectiveness after a while. Maybe i should change up that too. Im not throwing out my cubes just yet. I think i might do a trial. I'll clean and sanitise the kettle tap, and do a brew as normal, BUT with the new hose ( i'll do a double batch too ), and see if the 2 cubes come out ok. If so, its possibly the transfer hose. If not, i'll think about it some more. Or go on a random killing spree

Oh, and my next beer will be FYIGPA. 

**** You Infection Galaxy Pale Ale


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## white.grant (21/1/12)

Hey Mark,

Sorry for you pain!

I've read that Iodophor is pretty stable in undiluted form, but once diluted you've only got a pretty limited time before it stops being effective. The colour is a good guide to this. The darker the better.

I think if you're having problem with iodophor, it may be good to change your regime and maybe shock the bugs with a change of strategy.

If you want to try some starsan on your fermenters let me know and I'll spring you 30ml B) .



cheers

grant


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## Wimmig (21/1/12)

mje1980 said:


> Infections are a massive pustulent lesion on the rim of Satan's arsehole.
> 
> Haha too right!. Cheers for the update.
> 
> ...



I started with this;

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=3543

And then went right to big bottles of the same.


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## mje1980 (22/1/12)

Grantw said:


> Hey Mark,
> 
> Sorry for you pain!
> 
> ...



I have a few litres of undiluted left, but i think i'll change up and try the starsan anyway grant, thanks for the offer though. Pain in the bloody arse im telling ya!!. 

Cheers wimmig. I've got heaps of sod perc, so i think i'll just grab a big bottle of starsan. 

Kegs are nearly empty so i need to pull my finger out haha


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## Byran (25/1/12)

mje1980 said:


> :angry: Pitched a cube into my new fermentor with dry US05.
> 
> Guess what??
> 
> ...



Chapter 21 - Is My Beer Ruined?
21.2 Common Off-Flavors

Medicinal
These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors.

Could be due to the bleach perchance?

I recently got an Acetobactor infection from re pitching a yeast cake of US-05 after another brew. My bad for not tasting the sample first!
Here is a nice picture of it, tasted like vinegar and was cloudy as all buggery.

View attachment 51923


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## stux (25/1/12)

I rotate between iodophor and starsan

the only infection I've had was when a cider was dripping on top of another fermenter and then dripping *into* the fermenter through the airlock grommet whole thing.

managed to recover that fermenter with the iodophor/starsan approach

also, how are you getting the wort out of your kettle? through a tap? I know you no-chill, but if its through a tap you should pull the tap apart and clean/sanitize it. Preferably before every brew!

...

how are you building your starters? clean yeast or saved yeast?

Anyway, if your brand new cubes are getting infections, then it has to be upstream.


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## Ross (25/1/12)

Byran said:


> Chapter 21 - Is My Beer Ruined?
> 21.2 Common Off-Flavors
> 
> Medicinal
> ...



i can't see any signs of Acetobactor in that photo, all looks normal. From your discription I'd say you got wild yeast infection or some other bacteria build up in your yeast cake.

Cheers Ross


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## Rizzla (26/1/12)

Hi, Ive been very carefull and infection free (fingers x'd) Sodiumpercarb then Starsan spray. I have a brother and a couple of mates who have been brewing for 3 - 4years now without ever any steriliser. they just use hot water immediatly after racking the fermenters to kegs and empting kegs. Kegs and fermenters are then turned immediatly upside down They brew on an industrial scale, with about 8 fermenters on the go at any one time and provide 50L kegs for mates weddings, parties anything. They got me into brewing and I would estimate they have produced 3000 - 4000 l without a gram/drop of sterililer. Prior to kegging they used to bottle using the same sanitation method. Their beer is not bad for K&K and they have a substantial fan base.

So whats the go here? careful people get infections. Could it be the scrubbing of fermenters creates microscopic cevices or quick rinse with hot water and start again is the go

Would like to know if others who have a casual approach to hygene have been infection free.

Cheers Tom,


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## stux (26/1/12)

Rizzla said:


> Hi, Ive been very carefull and infection free (fingers x'd) Sodiumpercarb then Starsan spray. I have a brother and a couple of mates who have been brewing for 3 - 4years now without ever any steriliser. they just use hot water immediatly after racking the fermenters to kegs and empting kegs. Kegs and fermenters are then turned immediatly upside down They brew on an industrial scale, with about 8 fermenters on the go at any one time and provide 50L kegs for mates weddings, parties anything. They got me into brewing and I would estimate they have produced 3000 - 4000 l without a gram/drop of sterililer. Prior to kegging they used to bottle using the same sanitation method. Their beer is not bad for K&K and they have a substantial fan base.
> 
> So whats the go here? careful people get infections. Could it be the scrubbing of fermenters creates microscopic cevices or quick rinse with hot water and start again is the go
> 
> ...



Or they just don't notice the nasty infected Homebrew flavours of their beer?


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## rich_lamb (26/1/12)

I hear your pain MJ - I've had a similar problem affecting about half of my brews for the last couple of years. It's fairly mild; a medicinal/solventy note in the aroma and flavour but its bloody persistent, and yeah - after a while you start to think it would be easier to just buy beer.

I've been a little way down the road you're heading and these are my observations:
1) I was using a bit of bleach to sanitise cubes/fermenters - read that stuff about chlorophenols (posted above) and got all paranoid about bleach. So I stopped using it and the problem seemed to improve but never went away. Note that I always rinsed out the bleach with boiling water, and you can get a fair bit of steam pressure in a cube when you shake it.
Chris Taylor has since convinced me I'm barking up the wrong tree about the chlorine - so many other brewers use it with no problems and the concentration (particularly after the "boil out") is miniscule.
I clean with Sodium Perc (ie PBW) and sanitise with Phosphoric Acid (ie. Starsan).

2) I got rid of every source of plastic I could from my brewery. This was one of my motivating factors for ditching my cubes (hot wort + plastic) and going back to chilling. Still using plastic fermenters though - I cant bring myself to believe they could be a systematic cause of infection by themselves. My transfer hose is silicon and I keep it really clean. I did have a vinyl tube in my mashtun which I've replaced. I even stopped using gladwrap on my fermenters for a few batches. None of this made any difference

3) I use a wide variety of yeasts, and culture fairly large starters in glass flasks. Sometimes I use dry yeast which I hydrate before pitching. I'm pretty sure I'm not consistently underpitching. I make a variety of beers; the effect is always more prominent in beers of higher gravity.

4) I charcoal filter my water - my tap water smells and tastes really clean. No chlorine. A few years back our streets water supply was changed over to plastic piping. I'm now experimenting with water from the tank, which is also nice and clean. The tank is metal, but even modern metal tanks have a plastic coating. Why am I paranoid about plastic? Because feedback on these beers often includes descriptors like "plastic", "rubber".

So let me know if you conclusively prove the source of your problem, and good luck


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## manticle (26/1/12)

Try fermenting 1 beer plastic free (from beginning to end - tun to kettle to silicone transfer to glass demijohn with silicon bung) and see if it makes a difference. One way of nailing down if plastic has anything to do with it.

Try and eliminate all other variables - eg use fresh smack pack in low OG wort so there's no starter building etc.

I had some irritating infections (grassy, no hop flavour or bitterness) which I put down to wild yeast on the property fermenting the beer out. First occurred when a lager yeast failed to start after 4 days and I pitched some dry yeast.

I managed to eliminate most occurrences (can still happen) when I switched from making starters in plastic juice bottles etc to making them in my erlenmeyer (boiled wort, no transfer etc). I still use cubes and the ocassional bit of glad wrap.

Good luck both of you - massive, massive demoralising pain when you think you're doing everything right.


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## the_new_darren (26/1/12)

Make sure you pull the tap on your kettle apart and sanitise.

If you have beer stone (that brown cruddy build-up) in your kettle, fill it with water, boil, add heaps of napisan, allow to cool overnight. The brown crud with just rub off with a green scourer.

That crud has a flavour (believe it or not(

cheers

d


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## manticle (26/1/12)

^ Agreed. The crust that builds inside a stainless kettle tap after even just one brew is offputting. Not sure if it results in a medicinal flavour but just as I'd clean the crust off a frypan before cooking with it again, I give my kettle a good clean before re-use. That includes the tap and thread.


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## DoctorBob (26/1/12)

+1 for cleaning your kettle tap. I strip mine after every batch and soak in dil phosphoric acid. 

I had a run of 2 or 3 infected batches a year or so back. I stripped everything and eventually found stuff growing inside the kettle tap. It stunk!! I also found stuff growing in the plastic fermenter taps, despite bleaching the fermenters between every batch. These taps can be pulled apart with pliers for cleaning and I also bleach them.

If your cubes have outlet valves I would strip them and clean between batches also. Takes 2 mins!! Better than funky tasting beer.

All good in Dr Bobs brew house since I started these valve strips every batch.

The only other f**k up was using a new cheap ($5) Bunnings hosepipe to fill my HLT, and imparting a plasticiser smell & taste to the beer. This is the only batch I have ever had to throw out. Just couldn't drink it. I use an old better quality hose now, and always let it run for a few minutes before filling the HLT.

Happy brewing

DrB


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## mje1980 (26/1/12)

Cheers guys will take all on board. I strongly suspect either the kettle tap or transfer hose, as the taste ( which isnt disgustingly horrible, just not right ) is common to all the beers even when using fresh wyeast pouches ( 2 in a row, from 2 different batches in cubes ). I will strip down the cubes taps n all anyway. I just couldn't be arsed at the momet, too pissed off!!


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## mje1980 (6/2/12)

Well, i think i have found my problem. Yesterday i took my kettle tap off to clean and sterilise, and found a split in the valve body so big i could see through it!. This was between the kettle and the tap, and its a good 3mm wide. Looks like a great place for all manner of bugs and shit to move in and start a mixed family with my precious wort. In the process of replacing it now, so fingers crossed this is my problem.


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## fergi (4/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> Well, i think i have found my problem. Yesterday i took my kettle tap off to clean and sterilise, and found a split in the valve body so big i could see through it!. This was between the kettle and the tap, and its a good 3mm wide. Looks like a great place for all manner of bugs and shit to move in and start a mixed family with my precious wort. In the process of replacing it now, so fingers crossed this is my problem.




is the crack actually in the body of the tap. do you have a photo we could see. is your tap one of the 3 piece ones, they are stainless steel you are really unlucky for that to split. at least you can get back to making good beer again.


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## mje1980 (4/1/13)

Blast from the past!. I replaced the tao, got some silicon hose, and all is good.


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## manticle (4/1/13)

mje1980 said:


> I replaced the tao



Have you told the buddhists?


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## altstart (4/1/13)

manticle said:


> Have you told the buddhists?



He does not have to tell them. They are the enlightened ones and all knowing. Ahh so Altstart


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## Lecterfan (4/1/13)

The tao that can be replaced is not the true tao.


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## m3taL (12/1/13)

Tomorrow I'm Gunna bleach my whole brewery.


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