# My Cider Smells Like Farts...



## Thirsty Boy (14/7/09)

Primary fermentation seems to be finished on my very first attempt at a cider. So a refracto and taste sample was in order - 1.03, tastes nice... smells like fart.

I have since learned that I was probably a bit short on nitrogen during the ferment and that some DAP may have avoided this.. but too late for that now.

Question is - is it like a lager?? Will that sulphury farty smell go away? Could I blow it all off by bubbling through some CO2?? Or am I stuck with and have learned a valuable lesson for next time?

TB


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## newguy (14/7/09)

It's not too late for DAP. It should clear it up in a day or two.


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## Thirsty Boy (14/7/09)

I was wrong about the 1.03 -- I just shoved the readings into pro-mash... and its down to 1.000

Still not to late for the DAP?? Or maybe I feed it some DAP and a little fresh juice??


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## Supra-Jim (14/7/09)

I had a similar thing TB. Cider that tasted nice, but had the aroma of farts. I did try lagering it for a few weeks, slight improvement, but as you would appreciate, once you know a smell is/was there you can't help but search for it, and i found it again!!

Spoke with John at G&G about it, a couple of things were mentioned, once was nutrients, two was the yeast i used (Red Star??? supplied/recommended by BrewCraft before i knew better)

Cheers SJ


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## Fents (14/7/09)

what juice and or extract and yeast did you use TB?


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## HoppingMad (14/7/09)

Found with my first non-kit cider that cellar time has helped enormously. Mine has taken 3 months but is now a ripper. Trawling around US forums on cider making I found that most of the recipes that use juice or real apples (not cider kits) need decent time for big flavours to smooth out and for you to get that appley sweetness. Some recipes even recommend 6-8 months, but I'm too impatient for that.

Whatever you do don't tip it - cellar time will cure its ills. Has worked for me.

Hopper.

Edit - FYI - My cider finished dry like yours, darn close to and FG of 1 and used real apples.


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## Supra-Jim (14/7/09)

Interesting, I haven't tipped mine out yet, and will be close to 6 months since i've had a sample. Might be time to whack it back on tap and see what happens.

Cheers SJ


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## cdbrown (14/7/09)

I made a very simple cider using the Wyeast 4766 Cider, 8x 2.4L Berri Apple Concentrate and 0.2kg LDME and 2 heaped teaspoons of yeast nutrient. Didn't even consider using a kit. Thankfully no off smell or flavours, just can't seem to get to the end of the keg (not enough cider drinkers especially now the Mrs is on a diet).


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## Supra-Jim (14/7/09)

I used 12ltrs of apple juice, 10ltrs of apple/pear juice, 500gms dex, red star yeast and one teaspoon of nutrient. i suspect my issues come from a combination of yeast choice and not enough nutrient.

Cheers SJ


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## vicelore (14/7/09)

what temp u ferment at CB ?

Cheers Vice


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## Renegade (14/7/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> Spoke with John at G&G about it, a couple of things were mentioned, once was nutrients,


Ok, so what exactly was said about nutrients ? Too much, too little, wrong type ? 

I made a cider and used nutrient salts instead of dead yeast, and also ended up with the pong quite bad. It dissipated after three months cellaring at room temperature, to the point where, as discussed above, you would have to really be searching to detect it (SWMBO swore off it, because of the initial smell - ho hum that meant more for me !)


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## Supra-Jim (14/7/09)

Renegade said:


> Ok, so what exactly was said about nutrients ? Too much, too little, wrong type ?



Too little and possibly not the right type. This was back when i thought i wqas getting good information from BrewCraft and the nutrient used was their generic one. John was also quite negative about the Red Star yeast provided (again Brewcraft recommendation).

(Not trying to bash BC here, thats been done plenty elsewhere, and i was too green to know any better at the time).

Cheers SJ


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## cdbrown (14/7/09)

vicelore said:


> what temp u ferment at CB ?
> 
> Cheers Vice



Around 20C just like an ale. Went from 1.050 down to 1.005 in about 5 days. Chilled, transferred to secondary and added gelatine to fine it more. Ended up being quite a dry cider which those that have tasted have thoroughly enjoyed. 

Nutrients was this stuff http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=951


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## Thirsty Boy (15/7/09)

I used juice from the supermarket - 100% tassie fresh juice, no preservatives - but filtered rather than cloudy.

Yeast was from brewcraft - their brand of sparkling/champagne yeast. Sounds like that might be part of the problem along with no DAP - I did use some yeast nutrient (wyeast) though.

It has fermneted dry as dry could be, which is what I wanted. The object being to stabilise with sorbate/potassium met and back sweeten with juice and or other stuff at varying levels. Force carb for sparkle.

I only have 4L and just want to muck about a bit with flavours. I wont be lagering this or anything - I will screw up my nose, ignore the farts and work on flavours. Next time, different yeast, a bit of DAP and a bigger batch with storage time.

Thanks for your input guys

TB


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## manticle (16/7/09)

Potassium metabisulphite = sulphur. The only time I've had stinky egg cider is when using sodium or potassium met. I think it should be banned. Sulphite schmulfite. I can taste it in commercial ciders too (sodium/sulphite rather than egg).

Ciders do have a tendency to give off apple farts - cellaring will allow that to dissipate.

However with a recent store juice + fresh apple (juiced) + water + lactose brew I made that didn't use anything to kill off wild yeasts, I had a drinkable cider in weeks. No sulphur. I fermented with white wine yeast using a method comparable to lager (long slow ferment, cold conditioing at 2 deg etc) Next one will be all apples plus lactose (no need for water), using a similar method

My method that I'll be exploring (follows from those so far tried) 

Allow juice to clarify 48 hours in sanitised fermenter. 
Rack, leaving behind crusty foam. 
Add yeast @ 18 deg, allow to drop to 12 -14. 
Add lactose (200g for sweetening)
Ferment 2 weeks or more. 
Cold Condition 7-14 days. 
Bottle and cellar three months.


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## pdilley (16/7/09)

You guys are doing well so far.

I had posted before but was not on the Macbook but on the wife's Windows notebook. It dropped connection to the DLink router as I hit post then when I told it to repair the wireless connection it locked up the entire computer and everything was lost :angry: I'm just not used to having issues like this anymore 

I'll do a quick summarisation because Windows has taken the enthusiasm out of building a big reply.

If you have sulphur early on during fermentation that you are in better luck than if you get sulphur like smells after fermentation is complete.

My signature rotates a lot of yeast information. Before it rotated to the current list of information it covered off sulphur being expelled by the yeast cells because they have not built up the internal SO2 capability due to lack of proper nutrients.

Some yeast strains are noted for their tendencies to give off SO2 but this is not guaranteed as each wort/must is different make up so some people get it, some people don't with the same yeast.

Some but not all SO2 can be driven off through bulk aging.

If you are drinking the fermented beverage young, say in a month or so. Then SO2 can be driven off through splashing. A good whip like a lees stirrer on the end of an electric drill will do the job.

If you are a beer brewer with a kegging setup then you can bubble CO2 from your CO2 tank through the fermented beverage to drive SO2 out of solution.

Hydrogen Peroxide will also remove SO2 from solution. The stuff is just Water with an extra oxygen atom attached so its less stable and gives off the extra atom which is how it works. But that process is oxidating 

If you are talking about a more burnt rubber-bands type smell from after fermentation, its rare but could be methanethiol. And you are not going to have much luck removing it. Bulk aging will help some but not all but thats really CH3SH and not SO2.


I have thought up, but not built. A system which is basically like the two rubbish bins attached end on end sold at Bunnings as a garden mulch system. Its on a pivot system so you can spin it around and around to help mix the mulch. Instead I envisioned a fermenter with two holes, and two one way valves. One lets you pump CO2 from the tank into the fermenter displacing the air which escapes the other valve. Then after flushing out the air you can spin the fermenter to your hearts content and bring SO2 out of solution. Then more CO2 in flushes out CO2+SO2. Rinse, repeat until no detectable sulphur.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## mwd (17/7/09)

Seems to be some confusion between different substances.

Bad egg odour is caused by Hydrogen Sulphide H2S Linky
H2S is water soluble but the levels found in yeast fermentation are miniscule.
Maybe there is also a compound in apples or fruit that easily breaks down into H2S + 

Sodium metabisulphate for "sanatising" gives off Sulphur Dioxide S02 which dissolved in water produces a mixture of Sulphuric and Sulphurous acid hence the irritant if inhaled as the gas is poisonous and also produces acid in the nasal and mucous tracts.


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## pdilley (17/7/09)

You're right, got the symbols crossed.

You also have methionine and cysteine which are sulphur amino acids, which are biosynthesised by the yeast itself and the cells recycling of organic sulfur metabolites. But the short story is the breakdown in the process from lack of nutrients creates for the expulsion from the cell of the sulphur.

Any further detailed investigation leads to Cbf1p-Met4p-Met28p complex metabolism and this level even makes my eyes roll 


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Thirsty Boy (17/7/09)

too much ... too much. I am studying yeast next year. I will get all the serious chemical mumbo jumbo under control then thanks very much 

In the meantime BP has given me the info I wanted to hear - This brew has only small traces of your typical matchstrike sulphitic stuff - it has a decent amount of H2S though. Which I was pretty sure you could (at least partially) manually drive off by shaking/beating/stirring - or as I asked earlier on... bubbling through C02.

Now that BP has confirmed this for me... its all action stations. I was planning on force carbonating and probably filtering this cider anyway .. so it gets to spend an hour or two in the keg getting CO2 bubbled through it with my airstone. What this doesn't fix .. I will put up with.

Next time i will choose my yeast more carefully and be more careful with the nitrogen content of my nutrients. So it wont be a problem in the future.

Thanks for your help guys. I 'll let you know how it turns out.

Thirsty


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## manticle (17/7/09)

Tropical_Brews said:


> Seems to be some confusion between different substances.
> 
> Bad egg odour is caused by Hydrogen Sulphide H2S Linky
> H2S is water soluble but the levels found in yeast fermentation are miniscule.
> ...



The only times my cider has produced an eggy smell was when I used sodium or potassium met (once mistakenly as a no rinse sanitiser with a kit and once as a wild yeast inhibitor with a juice/fresh apple brew). I haven't brewed masses of the stuff but skipping the campden last time resulted in clean, beautiful cider within weeks. Any improvements required 
(and there are many) didn't involve sulphur or egg of any kind.


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## mwd (17/7/09)

The sulphites must be combining with something to produce a bit of Hydrogen Sulphide gas Manticle

And to TB what you call a decent amount of H2S or fart gas is actually in minute quantities if you can smell it. H2S is highly toxic in high concentrations but the human senses are easily tricked by a tiny bit of odour.
H2S is heavier than air but bubbling CO2 should drive it off.
Just the slightest wiff is enough to put most people off and also effect the perception of taste. If it smells good we expect it to taste good and vice versa.

Kids stink bombs contain H2S.

H2S concentrations for toxicity NOTE the Parts per million


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## Muggus (17/7/09)

I had a similiar thing to a cider I made with fresh no-added anything Cloudy Apple Juice and Champagne yeast (red star i think).
Smelled sulfury after a few days fermentation, and hung around in the bottle for a few months. Smell disappeared after 3-5 months and the cider itself became a bit less funky. Actually after a year, it was very smooth indeed...if you're willing to wait that long!


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## Bribie G (17/7/09)

Off topic for cider but H2S is produced by many lager yeasts and is, in very small concentrations, an integral part of the 'whiff' you get off a Euro lager when you pop the top of a bottle and that initial burst hits your nose. I brewed two absolutely identical lagers using W 34/70 and Mauribrew lager (that doesn't give off sulphur). The Mauri tastes a bit dead, although clean but when I open a bottle made with the German yeast, it smells like a Euro lager should. I had always assumed that that lovely aroma hit was just the hops but the sulphur clearly comes into it. 

With cider I would imagine that a good long fermentation should burp most of it off.


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## manticle (17/7/09)

Tropical_Brews said:


> The sulphites must be combining with something to produce a bit of Hydrogen Sulphide gas Manticle




Maybe. Small amount of personal experience as opposed to any real knowledge on my behalf.


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## Thirsty Boy (18/7/09)

has to be yeast derived .. the juice was S02 free (I made sure) and I didn't add any sulphur. The only thing I added was Wyeast yeast nutrient and the redstar yeast .. which muggus said gave him farty smells too. So I'm guessing that.

I theifed a sample and played a bit pouring from glass to glass - H2S smell reduced rather quickly, so I reckon the C02 trick should get it most of the way to good again.

Apart from the smell - nice cider, good acid, bone dry. Not much complexity and light on the apple aroma and flavour. A little added sugar .. and apple taste came back - a little added fresh juice and it was lovely with apple aroma and flavour.

So - apart from the sulphur. I have what I want. A decent, good tasting base cider, to stabilise and layer back in the flavours and aromas I want. Bizarrely for a brewer .. what I think I want the most is a little diacetyl and some autolysis. Maybe a malolactic fermentation and a bit of aging on lees??


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## HoppingMad (18/7/09)

TB, if you're wanting the autolytic flavours you would get similar to those found in champagne you will need to age quite a while on the lees.
Saison beers do this a bit I believe too but not as long as champagne. Here's an excerpt relating to Champers, dunno how you'd go with cider. 

Good luck!

Hopper.

*Autolytic flavours:*

Characters to look for are biscuity, brioche aromas and the much-desired yeasty, nutty flavours. Seven years ageing is thought to be the minimum required to see the full autolytic benefits in Champagne - any less just isnt as good, they say - but not every sparkling winemaker can afford to store his wines this long. As soon as the wine is disgorged, its sediment released, autolysis stops.

Source: JustDrinksFactSheet


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## pdilley (18/7/09)

Complexity will come with blending different apple types together - blending separate ferments together will let you try out a lot of ratios without committing to a full fermentation where the additions will normally be relegated only to juices. Simplest teaches you that you can easily make something better and most cases for less than cider kits in the store. Next thing try is different yeasts as the champers as you found will always send you completely dry. The OG of simplest is low range of beere so you can try yeasts normally used to ferment there. You can also try blending it with an ale as the next step up is blends with malt and hops if you go down the want to drink it younger path, the other path is to try the higher OG paths with a stronger abv and give a go at getying your aging down. Nothing of course stops you putting down long aged batches and make a young one in-between. Its normal in Germany to mix juices in to either reduce abv as the need arises or to change flavour, that region of europe has it if you look to Belgian lambics and the sweet woodruff syrups mixed in. Primary driver for ciders in my house is the wife, so I do blends of non-alc ciders, juices, simplest and blackrock for her.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Thirsty Boy (19/7/09)

Primarily I will be looking to produce fresh, clean apple tasting cider -- But I have had a few Normandy ciders recently and I love the damn things. They (or the ones I liked most) have a bunch of yeast derived character. Typical lees stuff - almonds, honey, breadcrust and the body and mouthfeel that goes along with it.

Looks like I might have to diverge any cider making efforts - some quicker and more apple and apple complexity driven. And some longer term stuff for the more yeast driven versions.

Is anyone local (or just in Australia) producing Normandy style ciders?? I need some experienced brains to pick.


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## kirem (19/7/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Is anyone local (or just in Australia) producing Normandy style ciders?? I need some experienced brains to pick.



they are up for sale but these guys might help you a bit.
http://www.thorogoods.com.au


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## Thirsty Boy (27/7/09)

Thanks for that Kirem, I might drop them a line -- you can probably help me too.

My cider is good - an hour or so of bubbling C02 through the stuff and hey presto ... no more fart smell.

Without the nasty smell you can tell that the cider is...

Bone dry, still has a distinct but not strong apple flavour and aroma, good acid and just a little tannin so its got some structure.

It is as a matter of fact too dry and I have been experimenting with adding a little sugar to give it some sweetness and body. Just a little bit - we are still talking brut .. just not brut natural. Just a little makes the fruit stand out more and gives it a tad more mouthfeel. I will probably look to backsweeten any future batches with lactose or maybe even stabilise the cider and backsweeten with sucrose or fresh juice.

I would like to get a bit more yeast lees character into it next time - and was thinking about a change of yeast to help get that without having to bottle age it for 7 years.

I was thinking

*Lalvin D254*

Recommended for all red wines and Chardonnay. Enhanced mouthfeel due to its production of polysaccharides. In red wines, D254 contributes to fore-mouth volume, enhanced mid-palate mouthfeel, smooth tannins and a mildly spicy finish. In Chardonnay, produces nutty aromas and creamy mouthfeel. Fermentation temperature 12-28 degrees, alcohol tolerance 16%, killer neutral.

or more likely 

*Lalvin CY3079*

Typically used for barrel or tank fermentation of Chardonnay for maturation, or as a component of blends. Induces a rapid development on lees of yeast derived flavours (toasted bread, honey, hazelnut and almond) and roundness. Short lag time and moderate fermentation figour, can be slow to finish. Alcohol tolerance to 15%, fermentation temperature range 15-25 degrees, killer neutral


Any winemakers able to tell me if there is any chance of these yeasts giving me what I want, or feel like putting me in my place with realistic suggestions?

any suggestions much appreciated

TB


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