# How many use bottles?



## trustyrusty (5/3/21)

Hi Guys

Just wondering how many use bottles v kegs.

Or do you use both 50/50?

thanks


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## philrob (5/3/21)

Bottling for 14 years, and keep doing it. Everything gets bottled into Coopers longnecks only.


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## Coalface (5/3/21)

I usually ferment about 25L, generally lose a couple of litres to the yeast cake. I ferment and transfer under pressure: 19L in to the keg and the rest into PET bottles. For the bottles I purge them with CO2 using a carb cap as a lid which not only allows for counterpressure filling but also force carbing in the bottle. easy.


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## Hangover68 (5/3/21)

Mainly keg, but overflow goes into bottles and anything that i don't keg likes stouts.


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## Nullnvoid (5/3/21)

I just bottle beers that I age.

Rest goes into kegs. Although with the amount I am drinking, I guess I am just large bottling everything as it's all getting aged.


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## YAPN (5/3/21)

PET bottles only. Might go glass for aged beers. Kegging only makes sense when large amounts are required.


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## akx (5/3/21)

50/50.
I enjoy bottling and bringing bottles. Kegs are convenient and have a "cool" factor. I don't think one is easier or better.


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## mje1980 (5/3/21)

I generally don’t keg Belgians like saison, even 4%ers go into champagne bottles. I have about 40. And about 40 normal longnecks for beers I want to age but don’t need the High carbonation I like for saison


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## Paleman (6/3/21)

akx said:


> 50/50.
> I don't think one is easier or better.


I bottled for years, recently started kegging. Kegging is way easier.


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## An Ankoù (6/3/21)

I bottle everything. Mostly 75 cl Belgian beer bottles which require a swing top or a cork, otherwise 33 cl Duvel "stubbies". Brought a few crates with English pints over with me and have got a dozen of the really old swing-top 1½ litre Grolsch bottles. It means I can pull anything off the shelf as and when I fancy it.


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## professional_drunk (6/3/21)

Had a keezer. Sold it and now bottle 100%. I love the simplicity.


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## clarkejw (6/3/21)

Bottling was one of the reasons I stopped brewing 12 years ago. Pressure fermenting and kegging are the reasons I've returned.


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## Klosey (6/3/21)

I brew 46 litres at a time and find kegging into a 50 litre commercial keg far easier. However I bottle 3 bottles per brew and put them aside to age and can then take them to a barbecue if needed.


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## akx (6/3/21)

Paleman said:


> I bottled for years, recently started kegging. Kegging is way easier.


Kegging is easier taking beer from your fermenter into the keg. Kegging is harder when, your gas bottle is empty, or there's a gas leak, or your pour is foamy, or you want to serve different beers at different carb levels. My bottles are stored clean, so it takes me an hour or two to bottle a 20l batch and then requires no extra effort aside from popping them in the fridge. Some people find bottling tedious but I enjoy it.


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## Paddy Melon (6/3/21)

I've been bottling for 3 years now and enjoy the process on bottling day I do about 25 litres and have it all done in 3 hours. That includes set up, sanitising, bottling, and cleanup of all equipment and fermenter. my bottles are always stored clean and covered so a quick sanitise and away I go. I find bottling has a reduced consumption effect on me. Having it kegged would be too tempting for me to poor a quick one each time I pass the beer tap.


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## Grmblz (6/3/21)

Style dependant, about 80% kegged, 20% bottled, bottles are champagne bottles.


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## BrewLizard (6/3/21)

100% kegged for beers for me. Occasionally pull a bottle off the keg to give away.

I don't miss the forever-state-of-mess that bottling brings, but I did enjoy the process of learning how to pseudo bulk prime and TIG welding my own aluminium bottling tree.

NB: I only ever bottled back when I did 5 L batches (I do 9.5 L now). Can't imagine how you guys do it with 19-23 L batches.


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## Feldon (6/3/21)

In descending order of preference (usage depends on the empties available):

2L growlers
1.5L Grolsch swing top bottles 
.750ml swing tops
.750ml Coopers long necks
.750 Coopers PET bottles

(always use at least one PET bottle so I can squeeze it to see how bottle fermentation and carbonation is coming along)


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## Bentnose (7/3/21)

I started out bottling, moved on to kegging, drank a lot more, gave up for a while and sold all my keg related equipment and have been bottling 20L-25L batches for the last 10 years or so. I enjoyed kegging more but with bottling, you just have to get it done and then its over and you have plenty of beer to drink again.


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## tubbsy (7/3/21)

I bottle only because I just started out and am doing it on the cheap. But even with spare cash, I would still bottle at least half as my kegerator would need to be in my shed, which is away from the house. No way I'm walking out to the shed each time I want a beer. With bottles I can grab a couple and bring in the house.


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## DarrenTheDrunk (7/3/21)

Paddy Melon said:


> I've been bottling for 3 years now and enjoy the process on bottling day I do about 25 litres and have it all done in 3 hours. That includes set up, sanitising, bottling, and cleanup of all equipment and fermenter. my bottles are always stored clean and covered so a quick sanitise and away I go. I find bottling has a reduced consumption effect on me. Having it kegged would be too tempting for me to poor a quick one each time I pass the beer tap.




ha ha ...That is why I do it..!!!


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## Eddy Monsoon (8/3/21)

I don't drink that much, but I like to have a half dozen types to choose from each evening depending on my mood, or the weather, or what's for dinner........

And to be able to offer to guests.

So bottles is just right for me.


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## yankinoz (8/3/21)

I'm a bottler, but then again I wind my car up with a big key before driving.

As I recall, there is a way to take a poll on this site, but the number of respondents would probably be too small to give you a reliable idea.


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## trustyrusty (8/3/21)

yankinoz said:


> As I recall, there is a way to take a poll on this site, but the number of respondents would probably be too small to give you a reliable idea.



thanks - good idea, I suspect only bottlers are answering this question....


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## CJay (20/3/22)

Paddy Melon said:


> I've been bottling for 3 years now and enjoy the process on bottling day I do about 25 litres and have it all done in 3 hours. That includes set up, sanitising, bottling, and cleanup of all equipment and fermenter. my bottles are always stored clean and covered so a quick sanitise and away I go. I find bottling has a reduced consumption effect on me. Having it kegged would be too tempting for me to poor a quick one each time I pass the beer tap.



"Having it kegged would be too tempting for me to pour a quick one... " lol. I just started brewing this year. Am loving it. Im just doing basic kits and bottle them but my first batch I drunk them all within 2 weeks of bottling lol. I know I need to let them sit longer. But its just too tempting.


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## Paddy Melon (20/3/22)

Beauty with bottles they are (mine are) 330ml. With beer on tap I would use a pint glass and probably wouldn't stop at one.


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## ozdevil (20/3/22)

i wouldnt say i am a bottler , more on the keg side only 1 thing to clean rather then x amount of bottles on bottling day .

but having said that i also bottler occasionly from the keg if i am going somewhere

being a truckie i have somewhat learnt i cant pour a beer each time i walk past the kegerator ..


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## An Ankoù (20/3/22)

CJay said:


> "Having it kegged would be too tempting for me to pour a quick one... " lol. I just started brewing this year. Am loving it. Im just doing basic kits and bottle them but my first batch I drunk them all within 2 weeks of bottling lol. I know I need to let them sit longer. But its just too tempting.


The secret is to have at least three batches bottled up so that at least some of them get a chance to condition properly. So brew up and bottle three batches and when you start brewing the fourth you can start drinking the first. 
The downside of this is also the upside as it means you're going to have to buy more supermarket beer to increase your supply of bottles.


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## fifis101 (21/3/22)

I bottled for 13+ years mainly because that's what I learned and I didn't even really know about kegging. Once I heard about kegging I did all the research and got everything on order. This was over a year ago now. I will never go back to bottles. The quality of kegging over bottles is the best part (I used to bottle carb, which is the main reason you get that destinctive "homebrew" taste). Having 4 beers on tap is great. I am disciplined in my fitness so I don't overindulge. If I ever need to take a few bottles with me camping etc I just fill a few up. 
The major downside of kegging would be the initial setup costs (and ongoing CO2 costs) but fir the quility increase it's well woth it.


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## Bark0s (21/3/22)

fifis101 said:


> I bottled for 13+ years mainly because that's what I learned and I didn't even really know about kegging. Once I heard about kegging I did all the research and got everything on order. This was over a year ago now. I will never go back to bottles. The quality of kegging over bottles is the best part (I used to bottle carb, which is the main reason you get that destinctive "homebrew" taste). Having 4 beers on tap is great. I am disciplined in my fitness so I don't overindulge. If I ever need to take a few bottles with me camping etc I just fill a few up.
> The major downside of kegging would be the initial setup costs (and ongoing CO2 costs) but fir the quility increase it's well woth it.



To counter this point a little bit...I bottle but I don't bottle condition. I either brew under pressure or add pressure during cold crash, then I counter pressure bottle fill. 

I don't have the space indoors for a kegerator (nor the free space for one in the garage). I'm still tempted to go to kegs though. 

I have an excess of bottles, maybe 20 dozen. My faves are 500ml german or czech amber bottles. I just like drinking that much beer in a glass. I have less than a slab's worth of 330-375ml bottles. Generally those are for sharing. Close mates know to boomerang the 500ml bottles, especially if they want more beer. 

There's also something really nice about opening a champagne bottle of something dark, rich and aged. We do 'taste' a little bit with our eyes. Well, it sets a nice mood anyway.


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## tubbsy (21/3/22)

tubbsy said:


> I bottle only because I just started out and am doing it on the cheap. But even with spare cash, I would still bottle at least half as my kegerator would need to be in my shed, which is away from the house. No way I'm walking out to the shed each time I want a beer. With bottles I can grab a couple and bring in the house.



So a year on and I have had a kegerator for 6 months and the only beer I have bottled is a Barley Wine for long aging. The walk out to the shed proved to be no impediment.


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## ozdevil (21/3/22)

Bark0s said:


> To counter this point a little bit...I bottle but I don't bottle condition. I either brew under pressure or add pressure during cold crash, then I counter pressure bottle fill.
> 
> I don't have the space indoors for a kegerator (nor the free space for one in the garage). I'm still tempted to go to kegs though.
> 
> ...



you may not bottle condition but your still bottling your beer

Aging in the bottle i thought you may lose carbonation over time

dont get me wrong i counterpressure fill bottles as well but do it for immediate use only


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## jtgoral (22/3/22)

What is a bottle?


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## Narapoia (22/3/22)

fifis101 said:


> I bottled for 13+ years mainly because that's what I learned and I didn't even really know about kegging. Once I heard about kegging I did all the research and got everything on order. This was over a year ago now. I will never go back to bottles. The quality of kegging over bottles is the best part (I used to bottle carb, which is the main reason you get that destinctive "homebrew" taste). Having 4 beers on tap is great. I am disciplined in my fitness so I don't overindulge. If I ever need to take a few bottles with me camping etc I just fill a few up.
> The major downside of kegging would be the initial setup costs (and ongoing CO2 costs) but fir the quility increase it's well woth it.



There are some commercial beers that also bottle condition - so I think with care you can avoid off flavours but maybe they have more filtering of the beer prior to bottle conditioning? Incidentally I've had beers my grandfather made after 6 or 7 years in the bottle and they still tasted fine + fully carbed. I've always associated the 'homebrew' taste with kit beer, the first (& only kit) batch I made was from a tin that came with the starter kit and it was like hombrew I'd had before and disliked.

I've been brewing and bottling for about 1.5 years or so now, and am curious about adopting kegs. Things that put me off would be having to go to the shed to top up a glass - heading out and down stairs in the dark every time feels like a drag. If I could have one or two taps going in the house that would be great - though dangerous potentially as a few others have pointed out. The bottling process I don't mind too much to be honest - chuck a podcast on and soldier through, it's just time consuming. Will probably try kegs at some point - but it's an investment as you say. Plus it is nice to have several different varieties cold and available.


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## fifis101 (22/3/22)

Narapoia said:


> There are some commercial beers that also bottle condition - so I think with care you can avoid off flavours but maybe they have more filtering of the beer prior to bottle conditioning? Incidentally I've had beers my grandfather made after 6 or 7 years in the bottle and they still tasted fine + fully carbed. I've always associated the 'homebrew' taste with kit beer, the first (& only kit) batch I made was from a tin that came with the starter kit and it was like hombrew I'd had before and disliked.
> 
> I've been brewing and bottling for about 1.5 years or so now, and am curious about adopting kegs. Things that put me off would be having to go to the shed to top up a glass - heading out and down stairs in the dark every time feels like a drag. If I could have one or two taps going in the house that would be great - though dangerous potentially as a few others have pointed out. The bottling process I don't mind too much to be honest - chuck a podcast on and soldier through, it's just time consuming. Will probably try kegs at some point - but it's an investment as you say. Plus it is nice to have several different varieties cold and available.


The general rule with bottle conditioning is the longer the better (to a certain point of course). I used to have enough bottles to last 6 months of conditioning before I drank them. Not sure if it's true about kit beer giving the homebrew taste as I still use kits now I'm on kegs I don't have the flavour any more. Move beears are all crisp, clean and free from any off smells or flavours. To me the flavour comes from carbing in the bottles. It could potentially be the increased amount of oxygen that comes with bottling but I used to use PET bottles and squeeze the beer right up to the top so there was next to no air in the bottle. I do think doing that improved my beer but still a long way short of what it's like now with kegs. I still think it's bottle carbing that makes the flavour. 

I have my kegerator in the garage that is attached to my house, so I only have to walk down the hall way etc to pour a beer. I can definitely understand that it could be annoying for people who would have to have their kegerator in a shed etc away form the house.


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## Narapoia (22/3/22)

Ah that's interesting - I have read that PET bottles are oxygen permeable so you will get oxidation over time that you won't see with glass bottles. It's a relatively distinctive off flavor so maybe that's it if you were giving them 6 months?

All that said - I definitely am curious to try kegging some of mine to see if that makes a difference as others have definitely mentioned a quality increase as well. I may have to put up with the walk!


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## raybies (22/3/22)

My only story about bottles: 

My very first brew ALL those dozens of months ago was at a DIY brew shop. I chose a dark lager from the menu and 120 bottles for $380. The recipe was using extracts, but I did not know the difference. Batch size was 50L, I followed the recipe and times with just a vague idea of what was going on. The shop fermented everything @ 18c because they only had I chamber. 
6 weeks later I turned up to bottle 120 dang bottles, I spent a good 2hrs on the task and the smell was starting to get to me by the end, but I also consumed a couple so I could endure the experience while single in my mind "99 bottles of beer on the wall, if one of those bottles should happen to fall, 98 bottles of beer on the wall... ". I had a paragliding accident in 2007, which broke my back in 3 places, and I have a titanium cage between L1~L3, so standing is not my strongest attribute. Only about 85 bottles were filled so I'm not sure where the rest of the 50L batch went. 

The beer tasted ~ok. 
Drove home and put a dozen in the fridge. 
I drank a couple and they tasted too sweet and heavy. 
By day 2 the beers were starting to taste a lot better, the sickly sweet was starting to go, I just thought I was getting used to it. 
By day 4 the beers were starting to taste a bit sour. 
Day 5, wtf is up with these beers... taste like beer and champagne mixed. 
And then it dawned on me, infection, so I took random samples from the ~78 remaining bottles, and all tasted the same. 
All the bottles ended up in the yellow bin.

My 2nd brew was at home with my newly acquired brewzilla, a 19L + 5L kegs and some CO2. It took me about 20mins to clean and keg my Vienna lager which remains to this day the BEST beer/lager I have ever tasted. I've never quite managed to repeat the success for some reason. 

With a keg I can dial in the CO2 which gives you further flavour profiles. 

I will never touch bottles again. If I want more variety I'll buy more small kegs... and they look cute too... if you ignore the CO2 tank close by.

Yes I have to ask Alexa to open the garage every refill, but I also bought bigger glasses/mugs... or I sit by my herb patch near the open garage eating chips while picking herbs to mix with the chips... Golden rose merry is my favourite.


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## fifis101 (22/3/22)

Narapoia said:


> Ah that's interesting - I have read that PET bottles are oxygen permeable so you will get oxidation over time that you won't see with glass bottles. It's a relatively distinctive off flavor so maybe that's it if you were giving them 6 months?
> 
> All that said - I definitely am curious to try kegging some of mine to see if that makes a difference as others have definitely mentioned a quality increase as well. I may have to put up with the walk!


This is true with PET but I'm pretty sure an oxygen barrier is added to stop this. Plus there's been many times a beer hasn't last as long as 6 months in a bottle


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## An Ankoù (22/3/22)

I agree that filling and washing bottles is a complete pain in the r-se. When I lived in the UK, I was in a town, all my beers were conditioned and dispensed from plastic pressure barrels (a fore-runner of kegs). I had my double garage fitted out as a bar and all was good with the world. My mates could come and drink their fill and then stagger home without having to worry about driving. Now I live in the country and we love every minute of it, but our neighbour on one side is an old gent who'll take two hours to down a glass and those on the other side are, let me be kind, not very high up on the evolutionary scale. The rest are in driving distance so, if I want to share my beer I've got to bottle it and since I enjoy the brewing as much as the drinking, I make far more than I can manage. So people come for one or two and take a couple of bottles on with them.
This is what I've found about bottling: Lagers, whether Pilsner types or not, do well in a bottle and get better as the months pass by. Year-old bottled lager is miles better than 8-week-old bottled lager. English-style ales don't do too well: they reach a point where they're good and then they start to go downhill a bit. Many of the yeasts that are good in casks are not all suited to bottling as they continue to nibble away at the higher sugars and you end up with Vesuvius! I've ended up using chico-type yeasts (like US-05) and North German yeasts as they do the job, settle out and go to sleep. Stouts and porters do ok, about the same in the bottle as in casks. So now I use my pressure barrels as lagering tanks since I can't easily get the gas for them in France, but I think it's high time I invested in some metal kegs. Just for the English ales.


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## philrob (22/3/22)

_English-style ales don't do too well: they reach a point where they're good and then they start to go downhill a bit. Many of the yeasts that are good in casks are not all suited to bottling as they continue to nibble away at the higher sugars and you end up with Vesuvius!_

Ah ha, finally someone with the same experience as myself. This is the reason I gave up using WY1968, even though I love the character it brought to my UK Ales.


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## An Ankoù (22/3/22)

philrob said:


> _English-style ales don't do too well: they reach a point where they're good and then they start to go downhill a bit. Many of the yeasts that are good in casks are not all suited to bottling as they continue to nibble away at the higher sugars and you end up with Vesuvius!_
> 
> Ah ha, finally someone with the same experience as myself. This is the reason I gave up using WY1968, even though I love the character it brought to my UK Ales.


There's some controversy as to whether Wyeast1968 is actually the yeast that Fuller's use in their own beers even though they endorse it. I agree that it's got a lovely flavour in strong bitters and you've reminded me of an experiment I wanted to try. I'm going to brew a Fuller's ESB clone and just before bottling it, I'm going to prime and repitch the beer with Safale F2, which is alleged to be a bottling yeast that doesn't metabolise maltotriose and higher sugars. Thanks for reminding me. ESB used to be my favourite in the Blue Boar, Poole, Dorset. I'll let you know how I get on, in a 6-8 weeks or so.


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## Narapoia (23/3/22)

An Ankoù said:


> There's some controversy as to whether Wyeast1968 is actually the yeast that Fuller's use in their own beers even though they endorse it. I agree that it's got a lovely flavour in strong bitters and you've reminded me of an experiment I wanted to try. I'm going to brew a Fuller's ESB clone and just before bottling it, I'm going to prime and repitch the beer with Safale F2, which is alleged to be a bottling yeast that doesn't metabolise maltotriose and higher sugars. Thanks for reminding me. ESB used to be my favourite in the Blue Boar, Poole, Dorset. I'll let you know how I get on, in a 6-8 weeks or so.



Would you need to filter the beer prior to priming and repitch the F2 to remove the 1968?

Just curious. Have a mate that loves his English ales and bitters so would like to do a batch for him but minus the bomb potential from slow chomping of the higher sugars.


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## Grmblz (23/3/22)

@An Ankoù I don't think it's possible to replicate cask ESB in a bottle or keg for that matter, buy a bottle of ESB, it's not the same as cask, neither is keg ESB, and if Fullers can't do it I doubt anyone can. The life expectancy of a cask of ale, once tapped is about a week, largely due to oxidation and condition loss so the yeast munching away doesn't really come into play, cask breathers (aspirators) have greatly extended the life of a cask but you would still expect the cask to be emptied within a couple of weeks. it would be really interesting to see how long it would take for the flavour profile to change to a noticeable extent due to the yeast activity. Good luck with the F2, I suspect the residual 1968 will continue to create problems long term but time will tell.


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## An Ankoù (23/3/22)

Grmblz said:


> @An Ankoù I don't think it's possible to replicate cask ESB in a bottle or keg for that matter, buy a bottle of ESB, it's not the same as cask, neither is keg ESB, and if Fullers can't do it I doubt anyone can. The life expectancy of a cask of ale, once tapped is about a week, largely due to oxidation and condition loss so the yeast munching away doesn't really come into play, cask breathers (aspirators) have greatly extended the life of a cask but you would still expect the cask to be emptied within a couple of weeks. it would be really interesting to see how long it would take for the flavour profile to change to a noticeable extent due to the yeast activity. Good luck with the F2, I suspect the residual 1968 will continue to create problems long term but time will tell.


I agree with you entirely, @Grmblz , and that goes for all bottled versions of cask ales. Most of the bottled stuff is pasteurised and the so called "real ale in a bottle" still tastes different to the cask version.
I've got a theory that many of the yeasts that are favoured for cask beer have developed over the years to try to mitigate the problems you describe: oxidation and loss of condition. If the yeast can keep chugging away in the background then that might give an extra day or two's drinkability to a cask of ale.
Interestingly, back in the early days of home brewing, when decent yeasts were not so readily available, we used to culture yeast from bottles of some commercial brands- Guinness, White Shield and Spifire being some of the favourites. I don't think any of those brands are bottle-conditioned today. My aim with the F2 is to rack, chill and lager the beer to get rid of as much of the main yeast as possible and use the primings and bottling yeast to condition the beer. I'm hoping to get a longer shelf life this way, but I agree that I won't get rid of the original yeast entirely.
As for bottled ESB and cask ESB, I've drunk enough of both to know they're not the same. That's not to say that the bottled version isn't a decent beer in its own right, though.


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## An Ankoù (23/3/22)

Narapoia said:


> Would you need to filter the beer prior to priming and repitch the F2 to remove the 1968?
> 
> Just curious. Have a mate that loves his English ales and bitters so would like to do a batch for him but minus the bomb potential from slow chomping of the higher sugars.


I'll let you know how it turns out. No I won't be filtering, but see my reply to @Grmblz. In truth, I've never seen F2 recommended in any of the main UK or US recipe sources, but a lot of French and Belgian recipes use it and, let's face it, Fermentis must be making it for something! So I reckon we might be missing a trick here.
Another way is to use a plastic PB or a keg without top pressure. One of the contributors on the UK forum developed what he called the Noddy system. He'd use a plastic PB as a cask, rack the nearly finished beer into the cask and then fit a large balloon to the inlet/escape valve to capture the CO2. This allowed him to draw off his beer and replace the ullage with CO2 at atmospheric pressure, just like a cask breather. He goes under the name of CD these days if you want to check him out. Remember, though that cask ale is "live" ale and once fermentation is completely over, it'll inevitable start to get flat; the cask breather only stops it from going stale.


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## An Ankoù (23/3/22)

Further to earlier replies, I should add that my experiment using bottling yeast is an experiment and not a tried and tested solution. I think the Belgians use it because, by the time the original yeast has fermented their high-strength worts, the yeast is pretty much knackered and they add the bottling yeast to ensure even conditioning. Nevertheless, getting rid of the original yeast by lagering will age the beer and get rid of most of the yeast and the bottling yeast and primings will ensure quick carbonation. Not exactly traditional "real ale" technique, although it might well be for "real ale in a bottle".
What we do know about Wyeast 1968 is that it doesn't posses any of the STA genes that make it a _diastaticus_ variant and so while it appears to nibble away at the higher sugars, it can't produce the enzymes necessary for metabolising dextrins. I reckon it's just a very slow finisher, which, since it's described as "extremely flocculent" is likely the case. Rousing it back into the beer towards the end of fermentation might produce wonders, too. 
Lot's of ideas and lots to experiment with. Let's not write off 1968 just yet.


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## Grmblz (23/3/22)

This is starting to get very interesting, as an ex Fullers manager I can attest to some customers noticing the difference between a freshly tapped barrel, a middle of life, and end of life, and of course some preferred fresh whilst others preferred old, plenty didn't notice (or didn't comment) we're talking from 1 to 5 days the difference, so what exactly does FST ESB taste like? Well, depends on the pub, some had higher standards than others, so the experience differed, Fullers was not alone, Youngs was the same, and I would contest any cask conditioned ale outlet would have had the same issues. We're talking early CAMRA days (no aspirators) so it may be a bit different now. Worth mentioning is the use of "sparklers" and the ability of the bar "person" pc gone bloody mad, to regulate the pull pressure so as to ensure an acceptable "head" As the barrel aged (flattened) the sparkler would be wound up and the pressure on the handle increased, I had barmaids that could annihilate the average guy in an arm wrestle. I happen to prefer FST LP and have an aspirator and engine specifically for it, I typically do 20L batches but for my LP I do a half batch, and very often chuck the last 2,3 or 4L's, I'm going to follow this thread with great interest.


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## TheMakAttack (23/3/22)

I was bottling for the first couple years and eventually I just found brewing to be cumbersome because the bottle tree took up so much space and prepping and filling was messy and my bottling wand would often not seal well and I'm crouched on the floor for too long trying to fill everything up, and oxygen exposure to all my dry hops, and fear of infection while racking.... I was using 750ml bottles to try and speed the process up but then I would want a drink all 750ml in one go. So eventually I just decided it was time to upgrade. 

I started building my whole system upgrade back when my daughter was born 9 months ago and I just conditioned my first keg of Niepa last weekend. I didn't just upgrade the kegs though, I went full pressure fermentation, magnetic drive transfer pumps, Whirlpool, HLT with HERMS. 
Needless to say My OCD in the build would not let me start my first brew till it all got pieced together, and I suspect I spent around $2,000 all up . But my god the control is incredible. The ability to force carb to have a real quality beverage ready to drink in a reasonable amount of time. To be able to transfer from fermenter under pressure into a purged keg is incredible. Also to not have bottles in my fridge taking up space. Not to mention when I was finished drinking I would often fill my bottles with tap water and shake them up to make sure that no buildup would cake on the inside of the bottle. So I'd often have 3-4 bottles floating around in the fridge half-full of water while I was waiting to spray them out and put them on the bottle tree. Yes I think bottles conditions for long periods of time was fantastic for a quality finished product, but I don't really let my beer last very long so that wasn't a huge benefit to me, and the cleanliness and maximised space in my brew kitchen, and not having to hear that screaming bottle spray adaptor on my tap anymore LOL. I don't miss them one bit. I can put a keg on the bucket blaster with some PBW and she's crystal clear in about 6mins. 

The only reason I'd go back to bottles now would be to store a few for later to allow them to condition a little longer and to bring over to a friend's.... 

Keg for life now baby


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## cpsmusic (24/3/22)

Narapoia said:


> Ah that's interesting - I have read that PET bottles are oxygen permeable so you will get oxidation over time that you won't see with glass bottles. It's a relatively distinctive off flavor so maybe that's it if you were giving them 6 months?
> 
> All that said - I definitely am curious to try kegging some of mine to see if that makes a difference as others have definitely mentioned a quality increase as well. I may have to put up with the walk!



I have a 10L Brau and use bottles. For a while I used PET bottles but found that some are definitely oxygen permeable and that this produces off flavours as the beer ages. I've switched to swingtops and no longer have the problem. I've attached an article that I found online that discusses the problem a bit more.

Cheers!


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## Feldon (24/3/22)

Similar questions about PET bottles came up in a thread here on AHB about six years ago:

PET Bottles - How long is too long in the bottle? 

My reply back then (post #3) was about PET bottles losing carbonation over time, and I quoted PB2, an employee of Coopers and a moderator on the old Coopers forum :





(the link to PB2's original posting on the old Coopers forum is now dead)

As regards the ingress of oxygen (O2) into PET bottles, there is an internal nylon barrier liner in Coopers PET bottles (don't know about other makers, or used Coke bottles etc). And if O2 does get in the yeast should consume it pretty quickly, in the short/medium term anyway while there is active yeast in suspension.

If you are getting "off flavors" from PET bottled beer my first suspicions would be that it might have something to do with your brewing process. Or if it is bottle-related they are unsanitary bottles despite how well you think you have cleaned them. And they probably are unsanitary if you have ever scrubbed them out with a bottle brush (even a soft one). 

I've been using some Coopers PET bottles for more than six years without issue (to me anyway), but then I rarely keep my beers for longer than about four months. It's not Grange Hermitage.


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## Bark0s (25/3/22)

fifis101 said:


> The general rule with bottle conditioning is the longer the better (to a certain point of course). I used to have enough bottles to last 6 months of conditioning before I drank them. Not sure if it's true about kit beer giving the homebrew taste as I still use kits now I'm on kegs I don't have the flavour any more. Move beears are all crisp, clean and free from any off smells or flavours. To me the flavour comes from carbing in the bottles. It could potentially be the increased amount of oxygen that comes with bottling but I used to use PET bottles and squeeze the beer right up to the top so there was next to no air in the bottle. I do think doing that improved my beer but still a long way short of what it's like now with kegs. I still think it's bottle carbing that makes the flavour.
> 
> I have my kegerator in the garage that is attached to my house, so I only have to walk down the hall way etc to pour a beer. I can definitely understand that it could be annoying for people who would have to have their kegerator in a shed etc away form the house.


I believe the home brew twang comes about from varied temperature fermentations. Rock steady temps make better beer. 
Bottle ‘conditioning’ secondary ferments don’t tend to happen inside a fridge…so there’s another place for interesting flavours to appear in rookie beer.


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## fifis101 (28/3/22)

Bark0s said:


> I believe the home brew twang comes about from varied temperature fermentations. Rock steady temps make better beer.
> Bottle ‘conditioning’ secondary ferments don’t tend to happen inside a fridge…so there’s another place for interesting flavours to appear in rookie beer.


Nope, I doubt that very much. I always brewed my beer in a controlled environment with temperature control. Maybe a little less control while bottle carbing but still in a warmed cupboard for a week to carbonate, then in a cool cupboard for storage. 
I would like to taste a beer from someone who bottle carbs who claims not to have the homebrew "twang".


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## Narapoia (28/3/22)

fifis101 said:


> Nope, I doubt that very much. I always brewed my beer in a controlled environment with temperature control. Maybe a little less control while bottle carbing but still in a warmed cupboard for a week to carbonate, then in a cool cupboard for storage.
> I would like to taste a beer from someone who bottle carbs who claims not to have the homebrew "twang".



I've made about 30 batches now - the only consistent off-flavour I noticed was when I was putting the whole kettle into the fermenter - rather than whirlpooling and leaving the hot break behind. Since then I would say the bottle conditioned beer I've been making lacks any distinct common off flavour across styles (so long as poured off the yeast layer in the bottom of the bottle). It's a pity you are in Tassie as would love to take you up on that taste test - as if I am missing something I would definitely like to know. The other thing I have noticed is leaving them to condition at room temp (or circa 21 degrees) for 4-6 weeks instead of 2, then cold conditioning gets the beer out of the 'green' phase more quickly. Learning patience with new batches however was a slow journey.

Set up is AG, Brew in a basket, with temp control for ferment and bottle conditioning (mostly).


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## fifis101 (28/3/22)

Narapoia said:


> I've made about 30 batches now - the only consistent off-flavour I noticed was when I was putting the whole kettle into the fermenter - rather than whirlpooling and leaving the hot break behind. Since then I would say the bottle conditioned beer I've been making lacks any distinct common off flavour across styles (so long as poured off the yeast layer in the bottom of the bottle). It's a pity you are in Tassie as would love to take you up on that taste test - as if I am missing something I would definitely like to know. The other thing I have noticed is leaving them to condition at room temp (or circa 21 degrees) for 4-6 weeks instead of 2, then cold conditioning gets the beer out of the 'green' phase more quickly. Learning patience with new batches however was a slow journey.
> 
> Set up is AG, Brew in a basket, with temp control for ferment and bottle conditioning (mostly).


I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you or others don't notice anything then you're doing a good job. It's probably just me but either way I don't have to deal with it any more now I'm using kegs


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## yankinoz (29/3/22)

fifis101 said:


> Nope, I doubt that very much. I always brewed my beer in a controlled environment with temperature control. Maybe a little less control while bottle carbing but still in a warmed cupboard for a week to carbonate, then in a cool cupboard for storage.
> I would like to taste a beer from someone who bottle carbs who claims not to have the homebrew "twang".



If bottle conditioning is the source of twang, then twang is a much sought after trait:


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## Markbeer (30/3/22)

Twang to me is from extract, poor yeast processes or infection.

I have been a little more lax with temperature lately. The beer is still great.



fifis101 said:


> Nope, I doubt that very much. I always brewed my beer in a controlled environment with temperature control. Maybe a little less control while bottle carbing but still in a warmed cupboard for a week to carbonate, then in a cool cupboard for storage.
> I would like to taste a beer from someone who bottle carbs who claims not to have the homebrew "twang".


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