# Whirlfloc When To Add



## Osangar (24/1/09)

I have always added a tablet of whirlfloc to the 25L brew at 15mins before the end of the boil.

I was chatting to a chap, who said to help with chill haze add at 60mins.

Any tips or comments ?


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## Steve (24/1/09)

Osangar said:


> I have always added a tablet of whirlfloc to the 25L brew at 15mins before the end of the boil.
> 
> I was chatting to a chap, who said to help with chill haze add at 60mins.
> 
> Any tips or comments ?



Not sure what he's talking about but everyone I know (and have read) add it at 10-15 mins from the end (as per the instructions on the packet).

Cheers
Steve


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## wambesi (24/1/09)

Whirlfloc assists with beer haze, but not chill haze. To get rid of chill haze you need to either adjust your brewing routine or use a filter or polyclar.

Adding whirlfloc that long in the boil is likely to denature the product and render it useless - hence the reason for adding it 10-15mins left in the boil.


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## Osangar (24/1/09)

I am doing a bit of an experiment

Today I will brew an amber ale and a bright ale. 

With the amber I have added the whirlfloc at 60 mins, and with the bright ale I will use acidulated malt. Generally I use no acidulated malt and whirlfloc at 15 mins. 

On both I am boiling for 90 mins, using a single infusion mash for 90 mins.

So far the amber is in the fermentor and did appear to not be clearing in the brew pot as usual. 

Although with both it will be at the 4 week point after bottling that I can see how the experiment went.


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## mika (24/1/09)

You been chatting to Roy ?  

I've tried adding the Whirfloc earlier, didn't seem to make a difference.

Are you getting Chill Haze ? If so, what's your batch size, how long do your boil for and what's your evaporation loss ?


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## Osangar (24/1/09)

Chatting to Roy (TWOC) that I have. Nice chap.
Chill haze, yes thats the problem. 
Batch size at start of boil is 35, end is 27 @ 90 min boil. 

As a side question what temp do you drink your beer at ? and does this make a difference to chill haze ?


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## mika (24/1/09)

Nothing real wrong with evap rate then, ~13% should be enough. I know other people on the forum who've had chill haze have just boiled harder and gotten rid of it, but depending on your system, this can make a brew day a real frickin PITA as you've got to watch it like a hawk to make sure it's not going to jump out of the pot. I guess you could throw the Whirfloc in earlier, though my experience and advice from other brewers have it doing nothing, but then I wasn't getting chill haze, just cloudy beer. Switched yeast strain and have been fine ever since.
Are you witnessing Hot break in the kettle ? What looks to be pieces of soggy tissue paper floating around in your boil ? I don't always see it, but it's a good sign that the proteins have co-agulated, which is what Whirfloc is meant to assist.

I serve all my beers at whatever my fridge allows me to. When I did some measurements a while back, thermometer in the fridge said ~4*C and in the beer when poured said ~6*C. I've got a little left on the dial, but it's an old fridge and works pretty hard in summer.

So your beer becomes completely clear when warmed up ?


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## Osangar (24/1/09)

Hey Mika, yeah when it is a bit warmer its clear and when its below 7c its a bit hazy. 

I am seeing a good amount of tissue material flogging around in the pot during boil, especially following the whirlfloc.

With the amber, it did seem loose the tissue material after 25 mins, when adding the tablet at 60m.


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## dr K (24/1/09)

Whirlfloc is designed to help cold break, its pretty much purified Irish Moss and works like a charm. It is best added in the final 5 minutes but anything up to 15 minutes is OK. You don't have cold break when the wort is boiling (doh) and in fact even the most rapid chilling will not accomplish full cold break but as a general rule the quicker the cooling the more cold break, of course if you are using a plate chiller or CFC its going to end up in your fermentor!! Its quite good for beer in the fermentation process, but to be good it has to flocc. out, thus whirlfloc. Letting it spin around for 60 minutes is useless, the mechanical action of the rolling boil, the time and temperature and the addition of hops are what creates the hot break. Break (cold or hot) or is all about "colloidal stability" which in a sense is about clarity, clarity is certainly the most easily obserbvable result, haze is a result of colloidal instability (its also a result of turbidity but thats anothe r DOH). I some cases these haze forming compounds only occour when the beer is chiled..its what we call chill haze. If I can get a camera to work and can work out how isert an image I will show you what I mean.

K


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## dr K (24/1/09)

Ok
If it works you will see a reflection of my reflection through a schooner glass. This beer was grain less than 2 weeks ago, had a thorough boil, whirlfloc at last 5 minutes and has been fined but not filtered and is at serving temp (around 8C), I can drop it to 2C and its still bright, just too cold !!

K 

View attachment Glass.bmp


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## Darren (24/1/09)

dr K said:


> Whirlfloc is designed to help cold break, its pretty much purified Irish Moss and works like a charm. It is best added in the final 5 minutes but anything up to 15 minutes is OK. You don't have cold break when the wort is boiling (doh) and in fact even the most rapid chilling will not accomplish full cold break but as a general rule the quicker the cooling the more cold break, of course if you are using a plate chiller or CFC its going to end up in your fermentor!! Its quite good for beer in the fermentation process, but to be good it has to flocc. out, thus whirlfloc. Letting it spin around for 60 minutes is useless, the mechanical action of the rolling boil, the time and temperature and the addition of hops are what creates the hot break. Break (cold or hot) or is all about "colloidal stability" which in a sense is about clarity, clarity is certainly the most easily obserbvable result, haze is a result of colloidal instability (its also a result of turbidity but thats anothe r DOH). I some cases these haze forming compounds only occour when the beer is chiled..its what we call chill haze. If I can get a camera to work and can work out how isert an image I will show you what I mean.
> 
> K




Hey DK,

I have always wondered what adding and stirring in an egg-white at flame-out would do. Reckon it may actually work better than Whirlfloc? Teaspoon of gelatin will also work fairly well I suspect.

Cheers

Darren


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## jonocarroll (24/1/09)

Darren said:


> Teaspoon of gelatin [at flameout] will also work fairly well I suspect.


I've just been reading the wiki on gelatine and it claims that boiling it will denature it, rendering it useless. That would suggest not using it directly in the boil.

My $0.02 worth.


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## dr K (24/1/09)

Whilfloc, Irish Moss, Koppafloc etc are called "kettle finings" they are added at the end of the boil to help cold break.
Gelatin and Isinglass are added to fermented beer to help clear the yeast other stuf that they attract (look up +ve and -ve charges for waht that is). Plastic (PVVP) which has the opposite charge is added as I understand primarily as a filtering aid and is added or injected directly before the filter. Adding Whilfloc to your finished beer will at best do nothing..though I suspect it will do somewhat worse. Adding gelatin to boil will not help cold break and by the time you need its power it would have losts its spring bloom and be discontent. Egg whites are used in wine but most winemakers do not boil their must. Oh and as to soup, a clear broth is very different to a bright beer.

K


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## buttersd70 (24/1/09)

dr K said:


> Plastic (PVVP) which has the opposite charge is added as I understand primarily as a filtering aid and is added or injected directly before the filter.



Egg-zachary.(  couldn't help it)
The polyclar also comes in a coarser grade, known as VT, which can be left to drop, and then racked off. (but as I understand it, it is less effective than the in line injection during the filtering process. But from a HB perspective, the VT is excellent for it's purpose).

QB, each of the finings has it's place. It's a matter of using the right fining at the right time for it's intended purpose. A combination of each fining method, in it's correct sequence, will give you the best results overall. 

And just as a slight aside, as far as geletin/issinglass and pvpp usage is concerned, that order would be....yeast fining (ie geletin/issinglass) first, pvpp second. Pvpp is more effective on 'clear' (ie clear of yeast) beer.


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## Osangar (25/1/09)

So far the amber did not floc as it was cooling, the bright ale did nicely tho. 

But it seems I have got it wrong, the chill haze will not be improved from whirfloc, I need additional clearing stuff in the fermentor at some time. 

Ahh good, a new experiment to try on the next brew day.


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## Bribie G (25/1/09)

Adding Polyclar as per instructions on packet to cold conditioning beer works a treat. It will settle out fairly quickly, I bottle after two days. The substance is quite safe and is often used as a filler in tablets such as Nurofen because it is entirely neutral to human beings. I drink my lagers cooler than my UK bitters and end up with nicely clear beer.


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## jonocarroll (27/1/09)

buttersd70 said:


> QB, each of the finings has it's place. It's a matter of using the right fining at the right time for it's intended purpose. A combination of each fining method, in it's correct sequence, will give you the best results overall.


And my query was - is flameout the _wrong_ time/place to be using gelatine?



QuantumBrewer said:


> I've just been reading the wiki on gelatine and it claims that boiling it will denature it, rendering it useless. That would suggest not using it directly in the boil.


In contrast to Darren's suggestion.


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