# Selling Your Beer



## Luek (29/4/12)

So far I've only brewed from kits but I've done a bit of grain brewing research and discovered how everyday items can be used instead of fancy stainless steel etc stuff.
Anyway, I work at a bowling club, and there's quite a bit of useful stuff at my fingertips, i.e. birko, old fridges begging for a thermostat, etc

And it got me wondering, what legal avenues (if any) are there to brewing stuff at work, kegging, then selling over the bar, completely by the book? 
Will the club need a special licence? Is there a silly little trademark on homebrew kegs that only allows home use (like lion nathan etc not allowing third party use of theirs)?

If not, I guess I only have to convince the boss.

Edit: hypothetical of course. I'm not gonna get the all clear and start tomorrow.


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## bum (30/4/12)

Luek said:


> So far I've only brewed from kits but I've done a bit of grain brewing research and discovered how everyday items can be used instead of fancy stainless steel etc stuff.
> Anyway, I work at a bowling club, and there's quite a bit of useful stuff at my fingertips, i.e. birko, old fridges begging for a thermostat, etc
> 
> And it got me wondering, what legal avenues (if any) are there to brewing stuff at work, kegging, then selling over the bar, completely by the book?
> ...


Tonnes of people are about to reply about how hard it is to go down all those myriad legal avenues required to legally sell the beer you make. And they are all correct.

What no-one ever mentions in these threads, however, is how hard it is to make beer that people will actually buy. Focus on that part first.


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## Wolfy (30/4/12)

Luek said:


> And it got me wondering, what legal avenues (if any) are there to brewing stuff at work, kegging, then selling over the bar, completely by the book?
> Will the club need a special licence? Is there a silly little trademark on homebrew kegs that only allows home use (like lion nathan etc not allowing third party use of theirs)?


No silly trade marks, you could sell kit-beer if you could, there are just extensive expensive and prohibitive local council, state and federal laws and taxes to consider first.


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## Greg.L (30/4/12)

Since your premises already have a license it probably isn't very difficult, so long as you produce the beer on the premises. You would need to check that your current license allows production as well as sale, and comply with food safety laws. If you just went ahead and did it you wouldn't get in too much trouble, getting a liquor license is the hardest bit. The council health inspectors would want to see that everything is kept clean and stored properly.


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## yum beer (30/4/12)

Greg.L said:


> If you just went ahead and did it you wouldn't get in too much trouble,
> 
> 
> There's a fantastic piece of advice.....dont worry about federal laws....Its not that bad in the big house, I suppose you would have some
> ...


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## Greg.L (30/4/12)

I don't imagine there would be much exise on a few batches of home brew, - the guy already has a license to sell beer (or his boss does). The hardest thing would be convincing the boss it is worth the effort. The kitchens are already approved for food production, they don't worry too much about accurate measures. (some of the boutique wineries I have seen have very little in the way of decent equipment). But home brew doesn't have a good reputation in the community, might be hard to convince conservative bowling club types you won't be poisoning them.


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## Ross (30/4/12)

Greg.L said:


> I don't imagine there would be much exise on a few batches of home brew, - the guy already has a license to sell beer (or his boss does). The hardest thing would be convincing the boss it is worth the effort. The kitchens are already approved for food production, they don't worry too much about accurate measures. (some of the boutique wineries I have seen have very little in the way of decent equipment). But home brew doesn't have a good reputation in the community, might be hard to convince conservative bowling club types you won't be poisoning them.




Greg.L 

Sorry, I'm sure you're giving this advice with all good intentions, but you obviously have little knowledge on what's required to produce & sell beer. Luek, honestly, nice idea, but forget it.


Cheers Ross


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## .DJ. (30/4/12)

Greg.L said:


> I don't imagine there would be much exise on a few batches of home brew, - the guy already has a license to sell beer (or his boss does). The hardest thing would be convincing the boss it is worth the effort. The kitchens are already approved for food production, they don't worry too much about accurate measures. (some of the boutique wineries I have seen have very little in the way of decent equipment). But home brew doesn't have a good reputation in the community, might be hard to convince conservative bowling club types you won't be poisoning them.


  

Seriously.... 

Just stop.


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## bignath (30/4/12)

Greg.L said:


> Since your premises already have a license it probably isn't very difficult, so long as you produce the beer on the premises. You would need to check that your current license allows production as well as sale, and comply with food safety laws. If you just went ahead and did it you wouldn't get in too much trouble, getting a liquor license is the hardest bit. The council health inspectors would want to see that everything is kept clean and stored properly.



That's the most shit piece of "advice" i've read on here in a long time.

Seriously, there are so many points in the above short sentence that are just plain, flat out incorrect it's embarrasing.

If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't give advice on a topic that can land someone is some real serious shit and **** up their livelihood.

There are huge ramifications if you get caught selling beer that has been brewed rather than purchased by the seller without the proper permits, tax requirements and inspectors. Way too much red tap than what you obviously realise.

I am in the process of reading up all about this sort of stuff as a group i'm involved with are considering a business venture incorporating a microbrewery - approx. 1000lt batches. 

It's a lot of stuff to get through, otherwise we'd all be doing it.


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## JaseH (30/4/12)

Sell peanuts for $10 a bowl - but it comes with 2 free beers


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## Greg.L (30/4/12)

You guys are pretty much in awe of "the man". First, paying your taxes is pretty easy, the gvt likes to take money off of people. Second, it is different in different states, so if you don't know the situation in NSW you shouldn't comment.
There are a lot of people flouting the licensing rules in NSW. There is virtually no enforcement, but you have to have all your signage in order. The main authority now is the council, and they will just tell you to stop, if someone complains. There is zero interest in someone selling a bit of homebrew in a bowlo. Like any business you would have to keep records and pay your taxes.
I have read a lot of crap advice on AHB, if mine is the worst ever I am quite flattered.


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## Luek (30/4/12)

Well that sucks.

I'd like to borrow a few things but my boss is a bit unpredictable. Will ask down the track eventually.

P.s. it's a bowling club but punters wouldn't be the demographic - it would be all the Sydney business types that blow through while visiting vineyards who actively ask to try local products.
P.p.s. just remembered we have a toohey's contract that limits our tap beers to theirs only (plus vb) which would cause pain I assume.


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## Ross (30/4/12)

Greg.L said:


> You guys are pretty much in awe of "the man". First, paying your taxes is pretty easy, the gvt likes to take money off of people. Second, it is different in different states, so if you don't know the situation in NSW you shouldn't comment.
> There are a lot of people flouting the licensing rules in NSW. There is virtually no enforcement, but you have to have all your signage in order. The main authority now is the council, and they will just tell you to stop, if someone complains. There is zero interest in someone selling a bit of homebrew in a bowlo. Like any business you would have to keep records and pay your taxes.
> I have read a lot of crap advice on AHB, if mine is the worst ever I am quite flattered.



From reading your profile you sound like an educated man who is actually involved in commercial beverage production, be it wine & cider, not beer. 
Therefore I cannot beleive the advice you are giving above!!! Just because something maybe poorly policed, does not give you the right to flout the laws, & have no shadow of doubt, you do risk very high penalties.

Regards Ross


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## petesbrew (30/4/12)

Most people going to bowlo's are there for a cheap feed & new/draught/vb (or shandy), and are pretty much set in their ways.
You don't exactly associate the places with craft beer.
By all means go for it if you could be arsed with the hassle, but don't expect them to spend a session on it while they flutter their wage on the pokies.


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## eviljesus (30/4/12)

How about some actual, referencable info here?

ATO Excise Application will be needed Australia wide for anything alcohol related. More can be found on the ATO website. This is the application form, so you can see a bit about what they are asking.
http://www.ato.gov.au/content/downloads/bu...t5906042010.pdf


This one is only for QLD, so not applicable to you, but I'd say this would be the same sort of info. From what I gather QLD is probably the worst place to try and do this, so it might be a bit easier in NSW. Specifically parts A & F. Google specifically for the NSW legislation and application.
http://www.olgr.qld.gov.au/resources/liquo...F1AppLiqLic.pdf

Alot of hoops to jump through but it most certainly can be done. You would need to have a proper setup though. They wouldn't let you get away with a half-assed setup like many use for homebrewing. This gear is quite expensive to get and setup. You would also need to be doing large quantities to make it worth your while. 

Dodging the rules is a downright bad idea and can/will land you in some serious shit. All you need is the one guy that takes it seriously (clearly Greg has had the lax guys).

EDIT: Speeeling.


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## bigfridge (30/4/12)

Luek said:


> Well that sucks.
> 
> I'd like to borrow a few things but my boss is a bit unpredictable. Will ask down the track eventually.
> 
> ...




I was going to report this thread to the mods as the advice from most of the posters is promoting illegal activities and hence violates the site terms.  

But then I thought that it would be better to correct the horrendous information put forward by most of the replies.

Firstly, /// & I have done this so this is the ACTUAL procedure you will need to follow - it involves gaining approval from all 3 levels of government ie Federal, State and the local council.

1. You will need to submit a DA to the council to install a BREWERY - this does incorporate the same food standards that apply to the existing kitchen, but does have a LOT of additional requirements. For an example you will need a statement of environmental effects produced by a suitably qualified consultant, trade waste disposal plan, traffic and parking study and so on.

2. The bowlo is currently licensed to SELL alcohol - not PRODUCE it. You will need to apply to the licensing court to reduce the currently licensed area to free up some space and then apply for a producers license. You will then need to make multiple appearances before the licensing court before your producers license is granted. At these court appearances you will need to convince the court that you have complied with the requirements of NSW OLGR ie advertising plan, social impact studies, detailed site plan and of course you will have your DA and Occupational Certificate approved by the Council.

3. Finally, you can now apply to the ATO for the Excise License. You will see the amount of detail required from the application form already posted. As an example it will cost you at least $2,000 to get each tank calibrated for volume, and you will all need to pass criminal checks to prove that you are a suitable person to hold a license.

The above process will take at least a year to complete and cost a $50,000 to $100,000 depending on how much you can do yourself.

Once you are ALLOWED to make beer for sale, you will have to make beer that you can SELL. This requires a detailled knowledge of beer styles, recipe formulation, ingredient selection not to mention the actual process and quality control of producing beer.

If you are lucky to avoid detection you may get away with it, but if you do get caught the state government would just love to find a scapegoat to prove that they are tough on alcohol fueled social problems. Once you and your boss have been dragged through the NSW courts, the Feds can't avoid noticing you and would make a 'test case' out of the bootleggers and the bowling club will probably lose its license to sell alcohol as having criminal convictions against the office holders will invalidate the license conditions.

If you do manage to avoid jail terms, you won't be able to work in the industry again due to your criminal record.

As Ross wisely said - forget it.

But it is doable if you have a syndicate with passion, energy, time and most importantly funds available.

The alternative is to go the Contract Brewing route where you pay lets say $200 per keg to get your beer brewed at a licensed brewery and then you only have to convince the club to pay more for your beer than they do for VB.


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## eviljesus (30/4/12)

bigfridge said:


> I was going to report this thread to the mods as the advice from most of the posters is promoting illegal activities and hence violates the site terms.
> 
> But then I thought that it would be better to correct the horrendous information put forward by most of the replies.
> 
> ...



Great post with straight forward, legit info not just heresay.

Interesting on the contract brewing route. That never even struck me as an option.


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## winkle (30/4/12)

eviljesus said:


> Great post with straight forward, legit info not just heresay.
> 
> Interesting on the contract brewing route. That never even struck me as an option.



Definately the best/cheapest way to start out. I've been giving it some serious thought :icon_cheers: .


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## Phoney (30/4/12)

Good response big fridge! Somebody should put that into a wiki, as this question pops up every 6 months or so.


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## bigfridge (30/4/12)

For those interested, here is the NSW application form.

View attachment L_F_PWL.pdf


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## donburke (30/4/12)

keep it under 1.15% abv and you'll be sweet


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## Innes (30/4/12)

bigfridge said:


> The alternative is to go the Contract Brewing route where you pay lets say $200 per keg to get your beer brewed at a licensed brewery and then you only have to convince the club to pay more for your beer than they do for VB.


Are there still licencing requirements for contract brewing?

Whilst the contracted brewery would hold the producers licence, would the person contracting the brewery to make the beer also require some kind of licence ie wholesale licence?


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## booargy (30/4/12)

donburke said:


> keep it under 1.15% abv and you'll be sweet



And store it in the freezer


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## benno1973 (30/4/12)

booargy said:


> And store it in the freezer



Sorry officer, I hadn't realised that it had become partially frozen. 10% ABV you say?


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## Ross (30/4/12)

Wachenfeld said:


> Are there still licencing requirements for contract brewing?
> 
> Whilst the contracted brewery would hold the producers licence, would the person contracting the brewery to make the beer also require some kind of licence ie wholesale licence?




Our producer/wholesaler licence only permits us to sell to someone with a liquor licence, so in the the opening case of this thread, we could only sell direct to the Bowls club.
We can still contract brew for someone who has no licence, but we have to make the sale direct to their customers who are licenced.

cheers Ross


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## 2much2spend (30/4/12)

2 things you cant avoid are

1. Death
2. taxes

just a reminder


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## eviljesus (30/4/12)

Ross said:


> Our producer/wholesaler licence only permits us to sell to someone with a liquor licence, so in the the opening case of this thread, we could only sell direct to the Bowls club.
> We can still contract brew for someone who has no licence, but we have to make the sale direct to their customers who are licenced.
> 
> cheers Ross



Ross,

Just as a matter of interest, was it a pain in the ass to get the producer/wholesale license?


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## Dave70 (30/4/12)

Laws are funny things aren't they?

Did you know that brothels are legal in NSW, but its _illegal _ to advertise that anal penetration is available. So how _would_ you charge out / request that particular service I wonder?
Talk about awkward!

I guess the lady may say she was 'gifting' her bottom, and the gentleman was simply 'donating' $75 because he's a bit of a philanthropist and fan of irony, and no agreement was entered into.

You may find a similar way to circumvent those pesky liquor laws. 


A bit like this bloke.
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technolog...0602-1fhfp.html


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## 2much2spend (30/4/12)

Dave70 said:


> Laws are funny things aren't they?
> 
> Did you know that brothels are legal in NSW, but its _illegal _ to advertise that anal penetration is available. So how _would_ you charge out / request that particular service I wonder?
> Talk about awkward!
> ...





NICE! and the booze delivery service is funny too.


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## Ross (30/4/12)

eviljesus said:


> Ross,
> 
> Just as a matter of interest, was it a pain in the ass to get the producer/wholesale license?



No, we bought an exsisting brewery which made the process pretty straight forward. Would hate to do it from scratch.

Cheers Ross


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## Phoney (30/4/12)

What if you were export your homebrew? Would it be legal to sell in NZ etc?


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## Dave70 (30/4/12)

phoneyhuh said:


> What if you were export your homebrew? Would it be legal to sell in NZ etc?



Or anchor a barge in international waters, set up your brewery and sell booze to P&O cruise ships.
Where there's a will, there's a way.


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## Innes (30/4/12)

Dave70 said:


> Or anchor a barge in international waters


Yeah, somewhere between Australia and Indonesia might see a steady flow of punters :lol:


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## donburke (30/4/12)

2much2spend said:


> 2 things you cant avoid are
> 
> 1. Death
> 2. taxes
> ...



sounds like you need to find a better doctor and a better accountant


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## Dave70 (30/4/12)

Wachenfeld said:


> Yeah, somewhere between Australia and Indonesia might see a steady flow of punters :lol:



Unless you can brew halal beer you may be in strife.

I'm thinking some corridor that sees a lot of Italian shipping. They seem to like a drink.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/4/12)

If the ATO get a snif that you maybe brewing beer and not telling them, they will tear you a new one, and it wont be pretty.

And the ATO dont muck about when it comes to illegall sale of ANY alcohol product


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## Greg.L (30/4/12)

Yeah, I have to admit I didn't realise about the excise license stuff - it doesn't apply to wine or cider. I guess the government considers beer producers to be a much bigger risk than cider producers. Fair enough, they are a pretty disreputable bunch. still, if you can't post ill-informed opinion on a site like this I don't know what it is for. If you make cider you don't have to bother with all that stuff, just get a producer/wholesalers license and go for it. You can sell by the glass or at farmers markets, no trouble.

I stand by my comments about enforcement, there really isn't any enforcement of these things, the days of Al Capone vs the revenue men is long gone. But I also think, even if it was legal, it would hardly be worth it.


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## Innes (30/4/12)

Greg.L said:


> Yeah, I have to admit I didn't realise about the excise license stuff - it doesn't apply to wine or cider. I guess the government considers beer producers to be a much bigger risk than cider producers. Fair enough, they are a pretty disreputable bunch. still, if you can't post ill-informed opinion on a site like this I don't know what it is for. If you make cider you don't have to bother with all that stuff, just get a producer/wholesalers license and go for it. You can sell by the glass or at farmers markets, no trouble.


I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what kind of alcoholic beverage you produce (beer, cider, wine or spirits), you need to be licences to produce/sell and pay excise to the government.


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## eamonnfoley (30/4/12)

Greg.L said:


> But I also think, even if it was legal, it would hardly be worth it.



It's really is not worth opening a microbrewery and pursuing your passion in this country. Who would want to shell out $50-100k and not be guaranteed to even get approval to open? Big business will, but the real brewers with passion, drive, and business acumen generally will not. There are better much things to do which won't risk your house, family, etc.


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## bigfridge (30/4/12)

Dave70 said:


> Laws are funny things aren't they?
> 
> A bit like this bloke.
> http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technolog...0602-1fhfp.html



That is an old article - middle of last year !

And the loophole was closed shortly after it was made public.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/4/12)

If its got alcohol in it, the ATO want to know about it, regardless of what type of beverage it is.

And selling cider by the glass at farmers markets....are you serious, you really are ill-informed. If a publican can be fined $10k for serving drunks, imaging what the police will do when they see selling illegal cider without a licence at a market...., your going to need plenty of keg lube with those prison greens


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## bigfridge (30/4/12)

Greg.L said:


> Yeah, I have to admit I didn't realise about the excise license stuff - it doesn't apply to wine or cider. I guess the government considers beer producers to be a much bigger risk than cider producers. Fair enough, they are a pretty disreputable bunch. still, if you can't post ill-informed opinion on a site like this I don't know what it is for. If you make cider you don't have to bother with all that stuff, just get a producer/wholesalers license and go for it. You can sell by the glass or at farmers markets, no trouble.
> 
> I stand by my comments about enforcement, there really isn't any enforcement of these things, the days of Al Capone vs the revenue men is long gone. But I also think, even if it was legal, it would hardly be worth it.



Just when I think that the message may be getting through, you go and prove that you haven't learnt a thing from this thread.

Firstly, the info I posted was for brewing BEER - wine is treated totally differently as a producers license allows you to also sell at markets. Brewers can't do this !

The enforcement doesn't usually come from government officers. You will certainly be dobbed in by one of your customers who either don't like your beer or or jealous that you are 'living the dream' that they can't afford.

If they don't put you in, one of the other breweries or wineries in the area will complain about you getting a 'free ride' and that your lack lack of proper accreditation is bringing the whole industry into disrepute !

Please start thinking (and sounding) like a businessman if you want to get into the business or running a brewery - at the moment you are sounding a little like a wide-eyed drunk !


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## Greg.L (30/4/12)

Wachenfeld said:


> I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what kind of alcoholic beverage you produce (beer, cider, wine or spirits), you need to be licences to produce/sell and pay excise to the government.



For wine or cider you need a license to produce and sell, mainly controlled by local gvt in NSW, but you don't need an excise license. You don't even pay excise unless your turnover is more than a million dollars.
Seems a bit unfair on brewers but I'm not complaining.


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## Greg.L (30/4/12)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> If its got alcohol in it, the ATO want to know about it, regardless of what type of beverage it is.
> 
> And selling cider by the glass at farmers markets....are you serious, you really are ill-informed. If a publican can be fined $10k for serving drunks, imaging what the police will do when they see selling illegal cider without a licence at a market...., your going to need plenty of keg lube with those prison greens



You can sell by the glass on your farm, not sure about farmers markets. You do have to inform the police, buts that's a formality. At our local farmers markets they sell plenty of wine, plenty of tastings. The police aren't bothered. Also the local distiller sells there, so beer would be legal at a farmer's market. I said you need a license, never suggested otherwise. Remember these things vary by state, what is legal in NSW may not apply in other states. That excise thing is a federal thing, can't avoid that.


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## bignath (30/4/12)

Greg.L said:


> You can sell by the glass on your farm, not sure about farmers markets. You do have to inform the police, buts that's a formality. At our local farmers markets they sell plenty of wine, plenty of tastings. The police aren't bothered. Also the local distiller sells there, so beer would be legal at a farmer's market. I said you need a license, never suggested otherwise. Remember these things vary by state, what is legal in NSW may not apply in other states. That excise thing is a federal thing, can't avoid that.



I'm not saying you're wrong on this post above, as i've got no idea on the specifics of farmers markets and the like....

but, the overall vibe of your post suggest you're getting caught up with the whole "what you can get away with vs what you're legally allowed to do". Doesn't make it right (if in fact you are wrong on this, as i said i don't know...)

Either way, it sound's like dangerous advice to the general observer/reader/guests to this site. The experienced members should know better anyway.


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## pmash (30/4/12)

Have a look at these 24 pages...
http://responsiblealcohol.vic.gov.au/wps/w...pdf?MOD=AJPERES


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## Greg.L (30/4/12)

Big Nath said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong on this post above, as i've got no idea on the specifics of farmers markets and the like....
> 
> but, the overall vibe of your post suggest you're getting caught up with the whole "what you can get away with vs what you're legally allowed to do". Doesn't make it right (if in fact you are wrong on this, as i said i don't know...)
> 
> Either way, it sound's like dangerous advice to the general observer/reader/guests to this site. The experienced members should know better anyway.



Hey, I already admitted I was wrong, ill informed. I didn't realise beer was so much harder than cider. But with cider, once you have your producer/wholesaler license, and you use your own fruit, you are very much unrestricted with selling the stuff. No tax, no bother. The tax office don't want to know, the state gvt don't want to bother. The hard part is finding the punters to buy the stuff. It may seem unfair to beer makers, and it is. Why should cider growers get such preferential treatment? I don't know.


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## Greg.L (30/4/12)

pmash said:


> Have a look at these 24 pages...
> http://responsiblealcohol.vic.gov.au/wps/w...pdf?MOD=AJPERES



This whole discussion is about NSW, so VIC stuff isn't relevant here.


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## DKS (30/4/12)

Greg.L said:


> I don't know.




Says it all right there.
Daz


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## dr K (30/4/12)

This site (as its name implies) is about Home Brewing.
Of course Home Brewers also drink commercial beer, may wish to comment on it and may wish to make a beer that tastes similar. Thats all fine.
Sadly some people belive what they read and dangerously report it, the urban myth crisis.
Simple, don't sell your beer and don't steal your kegs.
CUB/Lion-Nathan may factor in a certain amount of theft (tiny really) and consider the cost of recovery is just not worth it.
The ATO will not, and do not.
Forget your Men in Black stuff, the ATO have a charter to collect the tax that pays for for the benefits we enjoy living in Australia (did you really think the Mining Magnates did, well given some of the comments on this thread I can understand why some people may).
Despite (or perhaps because of) the rationalisation of tax and excise laws (note the Tax Office is the collector of excise) over the last 3 decades there are still some 39 different excise and tax charges relating to alcohol, many of which include beer, now whether or not we agree with these, thats the law. This is just on the Federal level, Bigfridge has already pointed out the complexities of of dealing with State and Local regulations.

K


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## Wimmig (30/4/12)

A friend of mine recently called and asked about homebrew specific laws from OLGR (NSW). The below is the basics of it and assumes you do not have a company, ABN and reside in NSW. That is, a homebrewer. Though some laws are federal. 

You can NOT sell your beer to anybody.
You can NOT profit in any way, shape or form. 
You can NOT use the beer to barter with, or exchange for any goods or services.

You are free to consume, enjoy and share your beer providing it is given to those only above 18 years of age. This can occur in any setting, though is assumed does NOT occur on a venue with a liquor licence, or one registered to make profit or trade or benefit from the consumption of said beer.

There is no max of output production provided it is consumed in a private setting or one which would be seen as fitting with the existing requirments. 

Go ahead and take all the kegs you like to parties, freinds houses etc. Nothing against it. Common sense applies.


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## Innes (30/4/12)

Wimmig said:


> You are free to consume, enjoy and share your beer providing it is given to those only above 18 years of age. This can occur in any setting, though is assumed does NOT occur on a venue with a liquor licence, or one registered to make profit or trade or benefit from the consumption of said beer.


Not too sure about this part. I've been to quite a number of brewshare nights at the Local Taphouse here in Syndey which is a licenced venue and drank not only my own, but other peoples homebrew. I was under the impression that as long as the home brew was not being sold, everything was above board.

I could not imagine that a licenced venue would put their licence and business at risk by hosting these events without following the regulations.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/4/12)

Getting back to the original OP....

If the club wanted to brew its own beer, then it would bascially only have to get a brewers licence, as they already have a retail licence, life will be a lot easier, as it would be classed as a BOP ( Brew On Premises ). They would have to submit to council things like disposal of wastes etc, but, assuming the club has a kitchen, then should be no probs. The main issue with council is that it must conform with safe food handling practices etc, basically a commercial kitchen

If you want to do it on a small scale, ask the council to set it up as a cottage industry, basically does not take up anymore space than a double garage

OLGR only really want the $5k for the license, which is cheap compared to a retail liquir licence..And as a Brewer, you can only sell to a retailer or wholsaler, definatly no cellar dor sales or tasting :angry: 

ATO dont care about any of the above, but you need the brewers licence before they will give you permision to brew. The ATO are ONLY interested in what you brew and how much.

Now I have actually looked into this process at length, and discovered some interesting things with regards to the ATO. 
In small breweries, they will accept hydrometer readings for %alc, but you must submit ALL your recipies to them, so they can work out a rough %alc, but, they do take into account mash and brew efficiencies, as long as you are consistant, they dont really care. You must also keep detailed records of frementable products, and do regular stock takes, as they will add these up against what you brew to see if you are diddling them. ALL fermenting vessels must be calibrated. then comes the issue of paying the excise, basically, excise MUST be paid before the beer is sold to a retail outlet ( ie leaves the brewery premoses ), you can sell to a wholesaler, but they must keep the beer in a licenced bond store untill the excise is paid. Excise is paid on the volume of alc in your brew...the lighter the beer, the less excise, this is why tap beer has gradually drop in %alc from 4.9 to 4.5%

I spoke to a person in the ATO's Alcohol Industry Group, and they where very helpfull, and when he explained the reasons and process, it wasnt that bad, you just need to keep acuarte records.

It is possible to brew and do it leagally, 

Bellingen Brewery use 300 ltr vesells.. And they sell there beer in 18ltr corny kegs 
http://www.bellobeer.com.au/brewery/


My Brewery never got of the ground, due to " shit happens", but..one day..

Oh... and the $50-100k costs just for licences fees, etc is crap, if you employs a solicitor and consultant, then be prepared to pay..I actaully got council DA approval and the cost was about $50, and as for the brewers licence, was going to be $5k, and I can submit it myself, its a simple procedure of filling out the form, getting approval from the local police , and satisfying the court. You dont even need and RSA in NSW. It is basically a formality


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## bigfridge (30/4/12)

Wachenfeld said:


> Not too sure about this part. I've been to quite a number of brewshare nights at the Local Taphouse here in Syndey which is a licenced venue and drank not only my own, but other peoples homebrew. I was under the impression that as long as the home brew was not being sold, everything was above board.
> 
> I could not imagine that a licenced venue would put their licence and business at risk by hosting these events without following the regulations.



Yes, Wimmig gave the game away when he used the word 'assumed' ie 

This can occur in any setting, though is assumed does NOT occur on a venue with a liquor licence, or one registered to make profit or trade or benefit from the consumption of said beer.

Official, legal advice never assumes anything ! You just need to apply the common, everyday meaning to the words.

As I have posted above you need to have a producers license to make the beer and depending on where your brewery is, you can only sell your beer to other license holders (or to the public outside of the metropolitan areas). The ATO collects the excise each week from the licensed producers.

Your pubs are licensed to sell alcohol (just look at the sign over the door) - but nowhere does it specify where that alcohol has come from. Just think about BYO for a moment - the rules about if and what you can BYO is only a matter of the restraunt's policy - there is nothing in their license conditions that control it.

So the rules are very simple so I hope that everyone here can understand:

You are not allowed to sell alcohol without a license.

Licensed premises are the only places where alcohol can be bought.

But as long as you do not sell your HB, licensed premises are free to serve your beer and to even charge for it. There are plenty of examples where this happens all the time at places like the Brew Share nights, HB comps etc.

Easy if you just give it a bit of thought.


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## bigfridge (30/4/12)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Getting back to the original OP....
> 
> If the club wanted to brew its own beer, then it would bascially only have to get a brewers licence, as they already have a retail licence, life will be a lot easier, as it would be classed as a BOP ( Brew On Premises ). They would have to submit to council things like disposal of wastes etc, but, assuming the club has a kitchen, then should be no probs. The main issue with council is that it must conform with safe food handling practices etc, basically a commercial kitchen
> 
> ...



Mate, there is just so much wrong with your information that I wonder if you have read any of the previous posts !

But the last statement that you don't need an "RSA in NSW" proves the depth and quality of your information. If you look at the NSW OLGR Application form that I posted earlier today, you will see that page 3 asks you for details of your RSA certification. If you don't have one, you need to enter the date that you will complete it - it is easy to find this section on the form as it is right beside the words "applicant must complete RSA course before licence can be granted". 

But as it is only a 'formality' (whatever that means) you probably don't really need to fill this part out as they don't really care about it.


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## dr K (30/4/12)

> Easy if you just give it a bit of thought.


BF
It is the last word that causes confusion
of course you have said what you meant, which is clear.
but if I thought that you thought and what I thought was unclear, then I think some cofusion may arise.
As an aside, for excise purposes they used to calculate the AB (W or V) by using two calibrated short planks, the closer they came to each other the more dense and thus was tax collected.

K


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## manticle (30/4/12)

dr K said:


> of course you have said what you meant, which is clear.
> but if I thought that you thought and what I thought was unclear, then I think some cofusion may arise.



Lucky clear isn't spelled with a K.

Konfusion would otherwise easily arise.


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## bigfridge (30/4/12)

dr K said:


> but if I thought that you thought and what I thought was unclear, then I think some cofusion may arise.



DrK,

You are indeed correct, both on a theoretical, practical and even historical basis.

Thankfully there is a way out of this taxing situation - if there is anything that remains unclear they can always ask Ducatiboy stu.

After all he has 'almost' done it so knows what he is talking about - unlike me who gives such crap advice (particularly about "the $50-100k costs just for licences fees").

BF


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## Phoney (30/4/12)

Wimmig said:


> You are free to consume, enjoy and share your beer providing it is given to those only above 18 years of age.



In NSW (not sure about other states) you're allowed to give beer to kids if they're yours or under your command.


http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/community_iss...s_and_under_18s



> (4) Supplying liquor to minors on other premises
> A person must not supply liquor to a minor on any premises other than licensed premises unless the person is a parent or guardian of the minor.
> 
> It is a defence to a prosecution for an offence under subsection (4) if it is proved that the defendant was authorised to supply liquor to the minor by the parent or guardian of the minor.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/4/12)

bigfridge said:


> Mate, there is just so much wrong with your information that I wonder if you have read any of the previous posts !
> 
> But the last statement that you don't need an "RSA in NSW" proves the depth and quality of your information. If you look at the NSW OLGR Application form that I posted earlier today, you will see that page 3 asks you for details of your RSA certification. If you don't have one, you need to enter the date that you will complete it - it is easy to find this section on the form as it is right beside the words "applicant must complete RSA course before licence can be granted".
> 
> But as it is only a 'formality' (whatever that means) you probably don't really need to fill this part out as they don't really care about it.



Please tell me what is wrong with my info.

The reason I stated that you dont need an RSA in NSW as a brewer stands correct. There have been several judgements made in court to state that as you are not selling as a retail product, you do not require an RSA, It is just a from, you can apply to the court for an exeption, based on the fact that you are only a producer, and under the law, a producer is not allowed to supply or sell at a retail level


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## mje1980 (30/4/12)

There's nothing like internet forum legal advice!!. Can someone help me set up an investment trust fund  ??


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## Greg.L (1/5/12)

In NSW there is a big difference between city and regional brewers licences.
"For small-scale regional brewers and distillers, the licence also allows tastings and retail sales in bottles at the licensed premises." So for this you would need an RSA.
The price of a licence is $500, not $5000 and it is a once off, no annual fee. The main consent Authority is the local council who will need a DA, but this will not cost $50, more like $500.
As I said before, I have seen the local distiller selling spirits at our farmers markets, now I read it that was illegal, just another example of the laws being flouted. So if you want to be a microbrewer in NSW the first step would be to go to the council and ask for their advice (not use this forum).


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## mje1980 (1/5/12)

Honestly mate, just stop, and walk away. You aren't gunna recover from your initial few post's, which were full of terrible advice.


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## wakkatoo (1/5/12)

I sold gave away some beer on the weekend.
My payment was a good feed, a few laughs with some buddies, and a weird story about muscovy ducks.


Buggar selling beer for money, that would take all the fun out of it! Unless I was making a lot of $$ I 'spose


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## Greg.L (1/5/12)

One thing no-one has mentioned on this thread is the tremendous amount of good-will towards these sort of ventures from government in most areas, obviously not places where drinking is already a problem. Microbreweries employ locals and attract tourists, just the sort of business most councils want. So long as you are sensible about complying with the rules and take a positive attitude, you won't have many problems.In NSW State govt has taken a very "hands off" approach, unless there is some sort of problem. The tax office are very understanding with small business, though obviously you have to pay the excise. Some people view government as nasty bogy-men, that hasn't been my experience at all. You always have to have a positive, friendly and accommodating approach when dealing with officialdom.
I think in NSW, if you already have a liquor licence, getting a producers licence would be very easy. The excise licence would be a hassle but I couldn't see any fee. In recent years this sort of thing has been made a lot easier.


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## Ducatiboy stu (1/5/12)

One thing I must confess is that since I looked into it, the NSW gov has changed the rules with regard to licencing, thank god for that


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## mikec (1/5/12)

Wimmig said:


> A friend of mine recently called and asked about homebrew specific laws from OLGR (NSW). The below is the basics of it and assumes you do not have a company, ABN and reside in NSW. That is, a homebrewer. Though some laws are federal.
> 
> You can NOT sell your beer to anybody.
> You can NOT profit in any way, shape or form.
> *You can NOT use the beer to barter with, or exchange for any goods or services.*



I found this bit interesting. A lot of things get sold/given away here, in return for "a bottle of your finest"...
Youz are all crooks!


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## Parks (1/5/12)

> You can NOT use the beer to barter with, or exchange for any goods or services.





mikec said:


> I found this bit interesting. A lot of things get sold/given away here, in return for "a bottle of your finest"...
> Youz are all crooks!



This is not unique to beer, it is for anything. The basic idea is that payment of any good or service must have a monetary value which must be declared to the tax man.

In my opinion though, the tax man is only concerned with systematic rorting and wouldn't ever take action against the Aussie standard of giving your mate a 6 pack or a carton for helping you move house.


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## mikec (1/5/12)

Parks said:


> This is not unique to beer, it is for anything. The basic idea is that payment of any good or service must have a monetary value which must be declared to the tax man.
> 
> In my opinion though, the tax man is only concerned with systematic rorting and wouldn't ever take action against the Aussie standard of giving your mate a 6 pack or a carton for helping you move house.



I think it's more about not having a license to sell alcohol, than it is about tax.
But I agree 1000000% that there is absolutely no way anyone would give a shit about us swapping a few beers for anything except big piles of money.


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## Greg.L (1/5/12)

mikec said:


> I think it's more about not having a license to sell alcohol, than it is about tax.
> But I agree 1000000% that there is absolutely no way anyone would give a shit about us swapping a few beers for anything except big piles of money.



Well, I have to disagree. You would be in much more trouble with the tax dept than the OLGR, if they ever took exception to such activity (which they won't).
These days in Australia money is more important than a few pesky laws.


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## lukiep8 (1/5/12)

> These days in Australia money is more important than a few pesky laws.



Tell that to the ATO when I asked whether we, or the breweries, could pay the package excise on 50L kegs so that growlers could be filled from 50L kegs. They flat out said no, and if anyone is caught doing so, the place and the brewery would be significantly fined.

So to summarise:

Offered ATO more money.
They rejected it.


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## eamonnfoley (1/5/12)

LUKIE said:


> Tell that to the ATO when I asked whether we, or the breweries, could pay the package excise on 50L kegs so that growlers could be filled from 50L kegs. They flat out said no, and if anyone is caught doing so, the place and the brewery would be significantly fined.
> 
> So to summarise:
> 
> ...



Lukie - how does the excise work for your growler operations?


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## lukiep8 (1/5/12)

30L kegs are taxed exactly the same as bottled product, which is what a growler/squealer is. You are basically re-packaging a beer, so it has to fall under the exact same excise, or you are committing tax fraud.

The only way to fill from 50L's, is if you have an excise license (such as a brewery, because shops cannot get them), and you pay excise based on re-filling. I don't know exactly how it works, since it is completely irrelevant to us at this stage, but I know a few breweries do it this way.


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## eamonnfoley (1/5/12)

LUKIE said:


> 30L kegs are taxed exactly the same as bottled product, which is what a growler/squealer is. You are basically re-packaging a beer, so it has to fall under the exact same excise, or you are committing tax fraud.
> 
> The only way to fill from 50L's, is if you have an excise license (such as a brewery, because shops cannot get them), and you pay excise based on re-filling. I don't know exactly how it works, since it is completely irrelevant to us at this stage, but I know a few breweries do it this way.



So do you pay full excise for the keg, then full excise for the re-packaging? So a double-dip tax?


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## lukiep8 (1/5/12)

No. The package excise is already paid on the 30L keg, so no other excise needs to be paid, since you are just re-packaging it into the same value excise container.

50L pay FAR less excise, so to re-package that, you have to pay basically full package excise on the growler or squealer container, which legally can't be done by stores, bars, etc.


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