# VIC-Xmas 2016 Case-Swap Recipe (Cocko's place)



## MartinOC

OK, I've done some work on the past few, so it's time for someone else to take the helm & drive this one.

The way I see it, we can either do something intended for immediate summer fermentation & consumption (ie. Weizen etc), or something for long-term fermentation & maturation.

Let the games begin!


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## technobabble66

Furry Muff.

I'll start with the stye suggestions then!
Saison
Strong Golden/Dark Strong

The way i see it is i'd go with a belgian-style fast fermenter, to go well in higher temps.
If we do something like a fairly basic Saison recipe it could be used as is, or tricked up by recipients to make almost anything else such as Golden Strong, Dark Strong, or even just an APA/IPA (US or Belgian).
So what i'd propose is stick to mainly Pils/Ale malt, with some Biscuit &/or Aromatic, maybe some Munich. Maybe include some Wheat as per typical assumptions with saisons, but i'd vote against that - my tiny experience with saisons would suggest they really don't need it. Without it, the mash will be easier.

So essentially it'd be a bit similar to the brew a few weeks ago - nice and simple with both recipe & mash; and people can then throw either a little or a lot into their cubes, with the additional option of using sugars/syrups into the fermentation if they want it stronger. They ESB-type thing we just did was ~6.6% from 20L, or diluted out to ~25L for ~5%. So the Belgian thingy would be ~6.5% out of the cube and we can either strengthen or dilute from there. Subsequently the hops in the boil would be on the low side to keep options open for individuals.

so something like:

92% Pilsner malt (maybe including (10% Munich)
3% Aromatic
3% Biscuit
2% Acidulated (for mash efficiency)

Bittering in boil to ~15IBU for 20L (say FWH with anything we can get), & that gives lots of room to manoeuvre in the cube, or do an Argon Method hops addition at home.

Whatchy'all think?

Could always go straight for a Belgian Strong if everyone's keen, but i thought i'd suggest the above in case there's a few who aren't keen, or simply want to do something a bit different to the rest of us.

I know there's always a bit of desire to make something massive, but it makes it pretty tricky when we're doing it on a grand scale. That Pliny clone we did was only ~150-200L. We're now doing double that volume. The amount of hops required would be crazy!


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## droid

what about brewing the highest placing recipe/beer at Vicbrew 2016 from someone on the swap list? if no-one on the list places then countback to the previous Vicbrew.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Highest scoring Kolsch? I reckon it's time for a Kolsch :icon_drool2: :drinks: :beer:


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## technobabble66

Kolsch = saison with different yeast 
[emoji185]

Edit: so yes, I'd go with that


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## MartinOC

'Don't mind/care about the style/recipe as long as SOMEONE ELSE takes charge & drives this to conclusion.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

technobabble66 said:


> Kolsch = saison with different yeast
> [emoji185]
> 
> Edit: so yes, I'd go with that


Uh, yeah I KNEW that!!! LOL.... I've never brewed a Kolsch.

Techno, wanna do a joint control of 'ze recipe'? That is as long as everyone's happy for us to do it. I'd feel more comfortable with techno's expert knowledge on board, I can help prevent an over-complicated grain bill and lift heavy stuff :lol:


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## Mardoo

Kolsch=2 ingredients. Techno could never allow it.


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## technobabble66

Yeah Deej, happy to give it a crack. 
Maybe give it a day or 3 to allow others to throw in a few suggestions & see if there's a better option. 
But currently I think the Kolsch/Saison idea is a winner. 


Yep. There is NO way I'm gonna be going with 2 ingredients. Ain't happening. 

.... However this cube malting thing seems to have worked well with the ESB. So maybe I could be consoled with cube malting the bejesus out of mine.



Edit: I suspect "expert knowledge" might be more just my ability to talk shit, by the way. 
[emoji185][emoji1]


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## MartinOC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOHxtS7G75M

Just in case you missed the lyrics of the first verse:

You tell me what you're never gonna be
And I'll show you what you just can't see
If you want good living gotta grab it with your hands
If you don't, then don't bother making no plans

Edit: Sorry, probably better a message for my partner than you guys.


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## Mardoo

Well that rocks...why have I never heard of these folks?


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## Grainer

To be honest Im over the whole 2-3 grains simple thing... for the sakes of creating a descent receipe...


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## MartinOC

Mardoo said:


> Well that rocks...why have I never heard of these folks?


Ah, come on Mardoo.....Ever heard of Deep Purple??

Gillan, Whitesnake & Rainbow were all off-shoots.

'Saw Gillan live a couple of times in the early '80's. AWESOME!!


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## MartinOC

Grainer said:


> To be honest Im over the whole 2-3 grains simple thing... for the sakes of creating a descent receipe...


Nah, to be honest, in my experience, 2-3 grains often makes the BEST recipe's. KISS.

Anything more just gets muddy with complications.


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## MartinOC

Hey, Mardoo, you might like this one too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IimJVGDAEM0


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## MartinOC

PS. I know I'm HORRIBLY :icon_offtopic:

...but I'm quite terribly off-chops right now.

I apologise....


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## Grainer

MartinOC said:


> Nah, to be honest, in my experience, 2-3 grains often makes the BEST recipe's. KISS.
> 
> Anything more just gets muddy with complications.


Meh.. I stick to what I do then.. don't like 2 -3 grain recipes unless the receipe really calls for it in which this case it doesn't..... so I guess I'm out again..if thats the case.. 

I still think the Piny MUST be rebrewed again! (the real recipe)


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## MartinOC

Grainer said:


> Meh.. I stick to what I do then.. don't like 2 -3 grain recipes unless the receipe really calls for it in which this case it doesn't..... so I guess I'm out again..if thats the case..


The choice is entirely yours.....There's beauty in simplicity....& the recipe this time is not yours...obviously....

Edit: John, complicated recipe's don't work well for case-swaps, so simple is best for these events.


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## technobabble66

Grainer said:


> To be honest Im over the whole 2-3 grains simple thing... for the sakes of creating a descent receipe...


Would you consider the option of cube malting? The Aromatic + Toffee combo I threw into our recent ESB seems to have worked a treat. I'll keep you updated as to how it goes!

Did you have an alternative suggestion of a recipe/style?

TBH I've found most "classic" styles seem to be best as simple recipes. The 2 obvious exceptions that spring to mind would be Stouts & Porters where a spread of malts seems to commonly work well. Otherwise I'd say there may be individual recipes out there that have lots of stuff in them and work well, but the KISS approach seems a bit more reliable if we're doing something a little untested. 
You know my innate desire to throw many malts at a recipe, but as I said, I'm coming around to the idea that for many (though not all!) styles/recipes KISS works best. Like making a single malt scotch where distinct flavours emerge compared to a blended scotch with good, solid, but generic flavours. 
I s'pose the other argument is that if we make a simple recipe people could add more to it if they want (hops/malts into cube, Argon method). But if we make a particular complex recipe then people can't take stuff out of it they don't want. 

Were you keen to do a Stout or Porter? 
I'd be open to either of them, though I have a recipe for neither. 
Maybe a RIS? I'm sure we could get Jesse to take a cube [emoji185] 
... Or rather, do a Stout that could be fermented as is or have unfermentables added to get closer to a RIS (or diluted to a Porter or dark ale). 
Happy to consider this.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

I really liked Martin's Caledonian Porter... would LOVE to give something like that a go. Plenty of time for all to ferment, age and bring tasters to the following Xmas in July swap?


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## technobabble66

Do we have a recipe for it?
I've actually still got my bottle of it sitting in the cupboard h34r:


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## DJ_L3ThAL

It's on the forum in one of the previous swap recipe threads. But Martin may kindly share again. Could have sworn he PM'd me it also but I can't find it. Didn't save it in my recipe folder on computer either but I will this time! It was fantastic.
You should open that bottle and try next chance you get. It'd be amazing now!!!


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## MartinOC

Sorry, guys. It has more than 3 malts in the recipe, so according to "ahem" h34r: case-swap protocol, it's a no-go.

I'm happy to share the Porter recipe (in its many guises) with anyone who wants it. No joke, it's far & away the most complicated recipe I've ever done & it works, but probably not a case-swap jobbie.


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## GrumpyPaul

MartinOC said:


> Ah, come on Mardoo.....Ever heard of Deep Purple??
> 
> Gillan, Whitesnake & Rainbow were all off-shoots.
> 
> 'Saw Gillan live a couple of times in the early '80's. AWESOME!!


My son sent me to a vinyl record store near my work for him last week.

I unknowingly picked him up a Gillan album "Futureshock" for $5 - I didnt know what it was, I liked the cover art and he said look for anything 70-80 era hair metal.

He was happy with my choice..


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## Mardoo

Now you've given him the gateway drug. Next thing you know it'll be prog. 

And Martin, somehow I've listened to plenty of Rainbow and Whitesbake while being completely ignorant of Gillan.


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## idzy

Just thought I would add some logic to the conversation. The number of grains in a brew will not make it more or less complicated to brew on brew day. Unless you add things like oats (Jesse?)... Whether a brew with multiple grains (3+) is desirable to the average punter is a different train of thought.

My other thought is that maybe we could ask Cocko what he would like to brew?


I must say I am with grainer. Often it is fun to do something extreme, as we don't often do it at home and it makes for good case swap war stories and reminiscing.


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## Nullnvoid

Don't bring logic into this Idzy!

Logic has kept us up on Friday nights at past swaps for hours and hours. It has no place here


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## Mayor of Mildura

idzy said:


> Just thought I would add some logic to the conversation. The number of grains in a brew will not make it more or less complicated to brew on brew day. Unless you add things like oats (Jesse?)... Whether a brew with multiple grains (3+) is desirable to the average punter is a different train of thought.
> 
> My other thought is that maybe we could ask Cocko what he would like to brew?
> 
> 
> I must say I am with grainer. Often it is fun to do something extreme, as we don't often do it at home and it makes for good case swap war stories and reminiscing.


What about Rye. That will put an onion in your ointment.

My 2c. I don't care about grain but it needs more hops.


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## MastersBrewery

Nullnvoid said:


> Don't bring logic into this Idzy!
> 
> Logic has kept us up on Friday nights at past swaps for hours and hours. It has no place here


 Well that and RIS, no complaints though.


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## idzy

Nullnvoid said:


> Don't bring logic into this Idzy!
> 
> Logic has kept us up on Friday nights at past swaps for hours and hours. It has no place here


Bahaha, I'm sorry for the way my brain works. I really am. On another note Russ, we used buckets at the last swap...totally uninitiated by me...


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## WarmerBeer

mayor of mildura said:


> My 2c. I don't care about grain but it needs more hops.


Gruit.

No more need be said.


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## technobabble66

@ Idzy's post:
Agree
Agree
Neutral

For me, the drive to KISS was more for reliability of the recipe, rather than the brewing process. So if there's a good recipe with 20 malts in it i'll be happy as a pig in poo. If we're making up the recipe, it might be prudent to stick to KISS depending on the style we go with.

I was thinking that this morning - why don't we see what the host would like to do? Maybe that can help decide the style, at least.

Pro's & Con's with extreme. Great & memorable if it works. Massive cock-up with time & result if it doesn't. 
Mind you, what constitutes extreme? The Wee Heavy was a little extreme, and that was 2-3 malts with a side boil & went fairly smoothly. If extreme is simply truckloads of hops, then it's more a matter of organising supply and covering the cost.

As stated, i'd happily go with either a Porter/Stout recipe or the Paler thing DJ & I suggested early on. 
TBH, it sounds like we may end up doing something like Martin's Caledonian Porter - more complicated recipe, has a caramelisation side-boil, can be made more or less hoppy in the cube. Ticks most boxes.

And (s)he who suggests Rye or Oats manages the Mash.
Maybe THAT can be one of the CSB Regulations*



*CSB= Case Swap Brew


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## Nullnvoid

idzy said:


> Bahaha, I'm sorry for the way my brain works. I really am. On another note Russ, we used buckets at the last swap...totally uninitiated by me...


Hahah, bet you were just grinning from ear to ear hey! That's funny

And don't apologise, it's kept me more than entertained, funny shit


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## technobabble66

Maybe we need to start a list of who wants what:

Techno - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)
DJ - Kolsch
Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
Mayor - Hoppy
Cocko - ....



So feel free to cut/paste the list & add/change to it.


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## technobabble66

Actually, a better way to do it and encourage everyone to put their 2c in:

Cubists
1. Cocko - ...
2. Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
3. Technobabble66 - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)
4. AJ80
5.VP Brewing
6. Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
7. Nullnvoid
8. DJ_L3THAL - Kolsch
9. Micbrew
10. JB
11. MartinOC
12. Black n Tan
13. Mofox1
14. breakbeer
15.Whiteferret
16. Mudd
17. GrumpyPaul
18. Camo6
19. Yob
20. Siborg
21. Midnight brew
22. Mardoo

Reserve cubists
1. TheWiggman
2. Jburke
3. mmmyummybeer
4. mayor of milder - Moar hoppy.
5. awesome fury
6. malt junkie
7. WarmBeer
8. droid
9. Reardo 
10. thearn


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## mofox1

idzy said:


> Bahaha, I'm sorry for the way my brain works. I really am. On another note Russ, we used buckets at the last swap...totally uninitiated by me...


Haha... there was a need and it was most easily filled (lol) by a bucket. Didn't know it was going to cause such a commotion!


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## mofox1

I'm up for Mr OC's Cal porter. It has inspired many similiar/not so similar brews of my own.


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## Mardoo

Yep, I'm in for the OC Californian Porter. Wait...


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## Mayor of Mildura

WarmerBeer said:


> Gruit.
> 
> No more need be said.


I had to google that. :lol:


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## VP Brewing

Actually, a better way to do it and encourage everyone to put their 2c in:

Cubists
1. Cocko - ...
2. Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
3. Technobabble66 - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)
4. AJ80
5.VP Brewing - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing. Happy to get my hands dirty and help out with the brew on the day this time if needed. It might distract me from getting shitfaced by lunchtime and being in bed at 9....
6. Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
7. Nullnvoid
8. DJ_L3THAL - Kolsch
9. Micbrew
10. JB
11. MartinOC
12. Black n Tan
13. Mofox1
14. breakbeer
15.Whiteferret
16. Mudd
17. GrumpyPaul
18. Camo6
19. Yob
20. Siborg
21. Midnight brew
22. Mardoo

Reserve cubists
1. TheWiggman
2. Jburke
3. mmmyummybeer
4. mayor of milder - Moar hoppy.
5. awesome fury
6. malt junkie
7. WarmBeer
8. droid
9. Reardo 
10. thearn


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## technobabble66

Cubists
1. Cocko - ...
2. Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
3. Technobabble66 - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)
4. AJ80
5.VP Brewing - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing. Happy to get my hands dirty and help out with the brew on the day 
6. Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
7. Nullnvoid
8. DJ_L3THAL - Kolsch
9. Micbrew
10. JB
11. MartinOC
12. Black n Tan
13. Mofox1 - OC Caledonian Porter
14. breakbeer
15.Whiteferret
16. Mudd
17. GrumpyPaul
18. Camo6
19. Yob
20. Siborg
21. Midnight brew
22. Mardoo - OC Caledonian Porter

Reserve cubists
1. TheWiggman
2. Jburke
3. mmmyummybeer
4. mayor of milder - Moar hoppy.
5. awesome fury
6. malt junkie
7. WarmBeer - Gruit
8. droid
9. Reardo 
10. thearn 



Abbreviated you a bit VP


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## Nullnvoid

Cubists
1. Cocko - ...
2. Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
3. Technobabble66 - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)
4. AJ80
5.VP Brewing - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing. Happy to get my hands dirty and help out with the brew on the day 
6. Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
7. Nullnvoid - SMASH, just kidding, happy with whatever, after all, it's all beer right? who's with me?
8. DJ_L3THAL - Kolsch
9. Micbrew
10. JB
11. MartinOC
12. Black n Tan
13. Mofox1 - OC Caledonian Porter
14. breakbeer
15.Whiteferret
16. Mudd
17. GrumpyPaul
18. Camo6
19. Yob
20. Siborg
21. Midnight brew
22. Mardoo - OC Caledonian Porter

Reserve cubists
1. TheWiggman
2. Jburke
3. mmmyummybeer
4. mayor of milder - Moar hoppy.
5. awesome fury
6. malt junkie
7. WarmBeer - Gruit
8. droid
9. Reardo 
10. thearn


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## technobabble66

It might also be worth mentioning if there's anything someone DOESN'T want.

"eg: Complicated, but prefer dark to pale." etc

ie: merely saying anything "complicated" could be either pale or dark. And not everyone is equally keen on dark ales as paler ones. Or vice versa.
Suggesting this as currently "complicated" may well be a vote for the OC Caledonian Porter...
If you're happy either way, then leave as is, i s'pose.


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## WarmerBeer

Not getting a lot of emotional support for my Gruit, am I? 

Is the 6th reservist on the B-list even entitled an opinion, anyway? Carry on...


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## idzy

Care less about the complicated and more about the extreme and infamous...

Let me throw some mud against the wall...

Russian River Pliny the Elder
Russian River Damnation
Westvleteren 12
Dogfish Head 120 Minute IPA
Brew Dog Tactical Nuclear Penguin (just kidding...)
Founders Brewing KBS
Tree House Brewing Company Good Morning
The Alchemist Heady Topper

Idzy


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## technobabble66

Got any recipes for those (other than Pliny, of course)?

I've got "the" Westvleteren 12 clone recipe, i believe, from BottomsUp on HBT - it's what commonly seems to be referred to as the best one on the forums. Happy to be corrected.
I'd be happy to try that. Though i think it'll be pushing it too far - it's 11%, and uses a fair chunk of D90 & D180 Candi Syrup at the end of the boil. Not impossible but everyone would want to be keen to do the extra steps (& cash) involved. One hurdle that seems apparent is the issue with the yeast - it looks like oxygenation is a big issue for these super big belgians.

I've got Westlveteren 8, Nostradamus, Westmalle, Chimay Red & Chimay Blue clone recipes from CSI also, if we're keen to go down that track. We could avoid the Syrup during the boil and add it during fermentation. That way people can decide for themselves if they want to go down that path (& expense). I'd be keen for any of these!


However, we'll need some recipes for those other hoppy suggestions, Idzy.


Edit: added link to the W12 clone recipe


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## idzy

technobabble66 said:


> Got any recipes for those (other than Pliny, of course)?
> 
> I've got "the" Westvleteren 12 clone recipe, i believe, from BottomsUp on HBT - it's what commonly seems to be referred to as the best one on the forums. Happy to be corrected.
> I'd be happy to try that. Though i think it'll be pushing it too far - it's 11%, and uses a fair chunk of D90 & D180 Candi Syrup at the end of the boil. Not impossible but everyone would want to be keen to do the extra steps (& cash) involved. One hurdle that seems apparent is the issue with the yeast - it looks like oxygenation is a big issue for these super big belgians.
> 
> I've got Westlveteren 8, Nostradamus, Westmalle, Chimay Red & Chimay Blue clone recipes from CSI also, if we're keen to go down that track. We could avoid the Syrup during the boil and add it during fermentation. That way people can decide for themselves if they want to go down that path (& expense). I'd be keen for any of these!
> 
> 
> However, we'll need some recipes for those other hoppy suggestions, Idzy.
> 
> 
> Edit: added link to the W12 clone recipe


Maybe we could do a side brew of syrup?


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## technobabble66

Whatcha mean?

A caramelisation boil? - you have to do that with the W12 as well 

If you mean to do all that, plus make the syrup on the spot? - good luck to you with that one!
I've done a bit of syrup making and there's nooooo way i'd attempt it on this scale. The larger size actually makes the temp control easier, but if we started to get a boil-over it could get out of control very quickly. Also the decision of how to cook it and when to stop boiling will be very very very tricky. I could confidently say i'll need a few attempts to get close to the D180 colour without just burning the hell out of it. There's a fine line in my experience, and it's hard to avoid a sharpness in the homemade stuff.

The bottom line is, if we want to do something huge like W12, i wouldn't want to risk it by using a homemade batch of syrup that's almost certainly going to be nowhere near as good as real D180. I'll certainly make my own syrup for my batch, but i would not want to be responsible for everyone else's.

Having said all that, my Dubbel (done with 1kg of homemade syrup) is ageing up very nicely B)

If everyone decided "wtf, let's just have a crack with the knowledge it'll probably **** up", then why the hell not. But i'm pretty sure that's not going to get the majority vote 
I s'pose we could maybe give it a crack & if it looks dodgy then don't use it and just wrap the brew up as per normal.


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## Black n Tan

idzy said:


> Maybe we could do a side brew of syrup?


just chuck it in the cubes directly. Boiling it for a few minutes is probably safest but I have used it many times directly into the fermenter.


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## Black n Tan

This is a Westy 12 clones I have made (adopted from Candisyrup.com) and it is excellent. 

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Westvleteren 12
Brewer: Grant
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Belgian Dark Strong Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (45.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Post Boil Volume: 26.00 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 l 
Estimated OG: 1.092 SG
Estimated Color: 41.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 36.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 66.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
25.00 l Melbourne Water Water 1 - 
5.00 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 - 
5.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 3 - 
4.85 kg Pilsner (Dingemans) (3.2 EBC) Grain 4 53.5 % 
2.77 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 5 30.5 % 
0.18 kg Acidulated (Weyermann) (3.5 EBC) Grain 6 2.0 % 
22.00 g Chinook [11.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 23.2 IBUs 
28.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.00 %] - Boil Hop 8 6.1 IBUs 
28.00 g Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 15.0 mi Hop 9 7.1 IBUs 
4.00 g Brewbrite (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 10 - 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 11 - 
5.00 g Baking Soda (Boil 0.0 mins) Water Agent 12 - 
1.0 pkg Trappist High Gravity (Wyeast Labs #3787 Yeast 13 - 
1.0 kg (in fermenter) Candi Sugar Syrup, Dark 2 (197.0 EBC) Sugar 14 13.9 % 


Mash
----------------------------
Name Description 
Sacch 1 65.0 C 70 min 
Alpha Amylase72.0 C 20 min 
Mash Out 76.0 C 10 min


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## Grainer

mayor of mildura said:


> What about Rye. That will put an onion in your ointment.
> 
> My 2c. I don't care about grain but it needs more hops.


rye tends to clog things up..not a good choice due to its oiliness


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## idzy

idzy said:


> Care less about the complicated and more about the extreme and infamous...
> 
> Let me throw some mud against the wall...
> 
> Russian River Pliny the Elder
> Russian River Damnation
> Westvleteren 12
> Dogfish Head 120 Minute IPA
> Brew Dog Tactical Nuclear Penguin (just kidding...)
> Founders Brewing KBS
> Tree House Brewing Company Good Morning
> The Alchemist Heady Topper
> 
> Idzy





technobabble66 said:


> Got any recipes for those (other than Pliny, of course)?
> 
> I've got "the" Westvleteren 12 clone recipe, i believe, from BottomsUp on HBT - it's what commonly seems to be referred to as the best one on the forums. Happy to be corrected.
> I'd be happy to try that. Though i think it'll be pushing it too far - it's 11%, and uses a fair chunk of D90 & D180 Candi Syrup at the end of the boil. Not impossible but everyone would want to be keen to do the extra steps (& cash) involved. One hurdle that seems apparent is the issue with the yeast - it looks like oxygenation is a big issue for these super big belgians.
> 
> I've got Westlveteren 8, Nostradamus, Westmalle, Chimay Red & Chimay Blue clone recipes from CSI also, if we're keen to go down that track. We could avoid the Syrup during the boil and add it during fermentation. That way people can decide for themselves if they want to go down that path (& expense). I'd be keen for any of these!
> 
> 
> However, we'll need some recipes for those other hoppy suggestions, Idzy.
> 
> 
> Edit: added link to the W12 clone recipe


I reckon we sort out the type of brew first, then work out recipe. There are recipes available for all of them. I have some in BeerSmith, but not on me.




Black n Tan said:


> This is a Westy 12 clones I have made (adopted from Candisyrup.com) and it is excellent.
> 
> BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
> Recipe: Westvleteren 12
> Brewer: Grant
> Asst Brewer:
> Style: Belgian Dark Strong Ale
> TYPE: All Grain
> Taste: (45.0)
> 
> Recipe Specifications
> --------------------------
> Post Boil Volume: 26.00 l
> Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 l
> Estimated OG: 1.092 SG
> Estimated Color: 41.5 EBC
> Estimated IBU: 36.5 IBUs
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 66.00 %
> Boil Time: 90 Minutes
> 
> Ingredients:
> ------------
> Amt Name Type # %/IBU
> 25.00 l Melbourne Water Water 1 -
> 5.00 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
> 5.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 3 -
> 4.85 kg Pilsner (Dingemans) (3.2 EBC) Grain 4 53.5 %
> 2.77 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 5 30.5 %
> 0.18 kg Acidulated (Weyermann) (3.5 EBC) Grain 6 2.0 %
> 22.00 g Chinook [11.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 23.2 IBUs
> 28.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.00 %] - Boil Hop 8 6.1 IBUs
> 28.00 g Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 15.0 mi Hop 9 7.1 IBUs
> 4.00 g Brewbrite (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 10 -
> 1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 11 -
> 5.00 g Baking Soda (Boil 0.0 mins) Water Agent 12 -
> 1.0 pkg Trappist High Gravity (Wyeast Labs #3787 Yeast 13 -
> 1.0 kg (in fermenter) Candi Sugar Syrup, Dark 2 (197.0 EBC) Sugar 14 13.9 %
> 
> 
> Mash
> ----------------------------
> Name Description
> Sacch 1 65.0 C 70 min
> Alpha Amylase72.0 C 20 min
> Mash Out 76.0 C 10 min


Looks amaze-balls.


----------



## Mardoo

That sounds good to me. 

But where's Cocko? What does the man of mystery want?


----------



## Grainer

In my mind, OATS and RYE are not out of the question as well.. it just takes being a little smarter and co-ordinating the mashes and introducing the oats into a selected mash run with rice hulls.. mistakes have been made in the past that have tainted the experience. I don't mind what we brew as long as it reflects good brewing practices and at least some sort of challenge and thinking outside the box and produces a beer that we would not normally brew.. if you want a normal base beer, you can always to a U brew It and get their base beer with some grain additions and adjuncts.. IMO (in my opinion) ....I don't see it the place for a Case swap.. Totally IMO.. of course and only reflects my thoughts on the whole thing.. People will have differing views of course.

Even a Berliner Weisse has great merit for a brew like this.. Take home unfermented wort.. sour it however you want.. then boil and ferment however you want then add in secondary and tertiary flavouring if wanted to what ever you want..the world is your oyster... thats huge variation and giving guys a huge opportunity to experiment and step out of their comfort zone/

The Piny is an AWESOME beer and the best we have brewed to date.. I am actually surprised Adam agrees with me on the whole subject as I tend to be more controversial apparently.. KISS done not always work and does not alway produce the best outcomes. I like Adams suggestions... he is on the same track as me I think his suggestions typify what I would like to brew.. get out of your box and start experimenting and make this a real worthwhile beer to brew and a real experience to enjoy on the day.... we have a resource of over 20 brewers involved with some that have specialties in certain areas and can add HUGE value to make ANYTHING work .. even if it is 80% OATS!


----------



## WarmerBeer

Grainer said:


> .... we have a resource of over 20 drunken brewers involved with some that have specialties in falling over certain areas and can add HUGE F&*K UPS to make ANYTHING a complete schemozzle .. even if it is 80% OATS!


FTFY


----------



## Grainer

WarmerBeer said:


> FTFY


The brewers tend to be more sober in my experience that the crowds


----------



## WarmerBeer

Grainer said:


> The brewers tend to be more sober in my experience that the crowds


Ah, I know which role I shall be playing on the day.


----------



## Camo6

My vote is for a roggenbier...with extra roggen. Seriously, what could go wrong?



^That is from last weeks brew. 20% rye, milled fine, in an APA cum IPA. Was in one of those "the rules don't apply to me" moods. Continual stuck mash and sparge. Temps all over the shop. Ended up scooping out the MT and recircing the wort through another 5kg of grain to clear it up a bit. Went into the kettle looking like cream of celery soup but came out clear as a bell. Efficiency was awesome... <_<




I'm with the big fella on this. Something complicated, something big, something memorable. I rarely get the time to brew simple APA's to keep the fridge stocked let alone a quality high ABV to age and enjoy. Admittedly, I haven't gotten along to many of these but if my vote counts, I vote big. Just without the fucken rye.


----------



## Cocko

Mardoo said:


> That sounds good to me.
> 
> But where's Cocko? What does the man of mystery want?


I'm as easy as my mum, TBH, you guys decide - no stress here.


----------



## JB

Cubists
1. Cocko - ...
2. Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
3. Technobabble66 - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)
4. AJ80
5.VP Brewing - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing. Happy to get my hands dirty and help out with the brew on the day 
6. Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
7. Nullnvoid - SMASH, just kidding, happy with whatever, after all, it's all beer right? who's with me?
8. DJ_L3THAL - Kolsch
9. Micbrew
10. JB - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
11. MartinOC
12. Black n Tan
13. Mofox1 - OC Caledonian Porter
14. breakbeer
15.Whiteferret
16. Mudd
17. GrumpyPaul
18. Camo6
19. Yob
20. Siborg
21. Midnight brew
22. Mardoo - OC Caledonian Porter

Reserve cubists
1. TheWiggman
2. Jburke
3. mmmyummybeer
4. mayor of milder - Moar hoppy.
5. awesome fury
6. malt junkie
7. WarmBeer - Gruit
8. droid
9. Reardo 
10. thearn


----------



## MartinOC

technobabble66 said:


> "wtf, let's just have a crack with the knowledge it'll probably **** up", then why the hell not.


Ahem! See Post # 10 in this very thread....

Edit: Things just got "complicated"...


----------



## Nullnvoid

MartinOC said:


> Ahem! See Post # 10 in this very thread....
> 
> Edit: Things just got "complicated"...


Everyone immediately scrolls up to post #10. 

Maybe it was just me.


----------



## technobabble66

idzy said:


> I reckon we sort out the type of brew first, then work out recipe. There are recipes available for all of them. I have some in BeerSmith, but not on me...


Agree. Don't need to see it/them yet, just so long as someone has the recipes to go with later.


----------



## technobabble66

MartinOC said:


> Ahem! See Post # 10 in this very thread....
> 
> Edit: Things just got "complicated"...


Are you saying we should get bad haircuts and listen to crap music [emoji185] 
Only kidding!
I'm down with flared pants but that's about it. 


Otherwise are you saying I should loosen up and push the boundaries; or that others should be less obsessed with getting complimikated and just make a great beer. 
Apologies for being a bit of a thickee on this one [emoji52]


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Cocko has spoken, Tactical Nuclear Penguin it is!!!

We could at least make the base wort first, then cube it and bring our cubes to the next winter swap, leave them outside to freeze along with ourselves, then decant the stronger liquor off into another cube, wait another year and repeat until we get to the desired strength.


----------



## technobabble66

Dex FTW!!


----------



## idzy

Cocko said:


> I'm as easy as my mum, TBH, you guys decide - no stress here.


Well if we are going with your mum, we know she wants big...


----------



## micbrew

Cubists
1. Cocko - ...
2. Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
3. Technobabble66 - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)
4. AJ80
5.VP Brewing - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing. Happy to get my hands dirty and help out with the brew on the day
6. Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
7. Nullnvoid - SMASH, just kidding, happy with whatever, after all, it's all beer right? who's with me?
8. DJ_L3THAL - Kolsch
9. Micbrew fence sitter pliny / Caledonian porter
10. JB - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
11. MartinOC
12. Black n Tan
13. Mofox1 - OC Caledonian Porter
14. breakbeer
15.Whiteferret
16. Mudd
17. GrumpyPaul
18. Camo6
19. Yob
20. Siborg
21. Midnight brew
22. Mardoo - OC Caledonian Porter

Reserve cubists
1. TheWiggman
2. Jburke
3. mmmyummybeer
4. mayor of milder - Moar hoppy.
5. awesome fury
6. malt junkie
7. WarmBeer - Gruit
8. droid
9. Reardo
10. thearn


----------



## AJ80

Cubists
1. Cocko - ...
2. Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
3. Technobabble66 - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)
4. AJ80 - Happy to go with the consensus 
5.VP Brewing - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing. Happy to get my hands dirty and help out with the brew on the day
6. Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
7. Nullnvoid - SMASH, just kidding, happy with whatever, after all, it's all beer right? who's with me?
8. DJ_L3THAL - Kolsch
9. Micbrew fence sitter pliny / Caledonian porter
10. JB - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
11. MartinOC
12. Black n Tan
13. Mofox1 - OC Caledonian Porter
14. breakbeer
15.Whiteferret
16. Mudd
17. GrumpyPaul
18. Camo6
19. Yob
20. Siborg
21. Midnight brew
22. Mardoo - OC Caledonian Porter

Reserve cubists
1. TheWiggman
2. Jburke
3. mmmyummybeer
4. mayor of milder - Moar hoppy.
5. awesome fury
6. malt junkie
7. WarmBeer - Gruit
8. droid
9. Reardo
10. thearn


----------



## MartinOC

technobabble66 said:


> Otherwise are you saying I should loosen up and push the boundaries; or that others should be less obsessed with getting complimikated and just make a great beer.
> Apologies for being a bit of a thickee on this one [emoji52]


Go for the triple-decocted Inter-Continental Ballistic Nuclear Pengiun with a home-made candy syrup. Parti-gyle the second runnings into a side-boil.

At the conclusion of the main boil & cubing, transfer the side-boil to the main boiler & assume 10-13% utilisation from the "spent" hops. Calculate your extra bittering additions & any late-hops on the fly - go on - guess at it, you can do it.....!

I shall pull-up my deck chair & giggle a lot.... :lol:


----------



## MartinOC

Cubists
1. Cocko - ...
2. Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
3. Technobabble66 - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)
4. AJ80 - Happy to go with the consensus 
5.VP Brewing - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing. Happy to get my hands dirty and help out with the brew on the day
6. Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
7. Nullnvoid - SMASH, just kidding, happy with whatever, after all, it's all beer right? who's with me?
8. DJ_L3THAL - Kolsch
9. Micbrew fence sitter pliny / Caledonian porter
10. JB - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
11. MartinOC - Triple-decocted Inter-Continental Ballistic Nuclear Penguin (see above).
12. Black n Tan
13. Mofox1 - OC Caledonian Porter
14. breakbeer
15.Whiteferret
16. Mudd
17. GrumpyPaul
18. Camo6
19. Yob
20. Siborg
21. Midnight brew
22. Mardoo - OC Caledonian Porter

Reserve cubists
1. TheWiggman
2. Jburke
3. mmmyummybeer
4. mayor of milder - Moar hoppy.
5. awesome fury
6. malt junkie
7. WarmBeer - Gruit
8. droid
9. Reardo
10. thearn


----------



## Mardoo

Well, it's true that we haven't had a go at decoction on the big rig yet 

Decocted Dunkelweizen perhaps?


----------



## technobabble66

Set up all the extra cooking pots on the fire for decoctions? 
Let's go old skool!!


----------



## MastersBrewery

MartinOC said:


> Go for the triple-decocted Inter-Continental Ballistic Nuclear Pengiun with a home-made candy syrup. Parti-gyle the second runnings into a side-boil.
> 
> At the conclusion of the main boil & cubing, transfer the side-boil to the main boiler & assume 10-13% utilisation from the "spent" hops. Calculate your extra bittering additions & any late-hops on the fly - go on - guess at it, you can do it.....!
> 
> I shall pull-up my deck chair & giggle a lot.... :lol:


seriously?!! If we're going to that sort of extreme we need to throw in a double reiteration as well, in which case we could have 2 side boils caramelizing before we get the main boil underway.

Time to look for a bigger kettle


----------



## MartinOC

I believe Idzy may be looking at this possibility...


----------



## Nullnvoid

MartinOC said:


> I believe Idzy may be looking at this possibility...



Of course he is  why is that no surprise 

Has he got his dream esky yet?


----------



## MartinOC

I have no direct knowledge of such things.

If he does source a swag of bigger kit, it will change the whole dynamic of everything that has gone before (Bastard!)... :blink:


----------



## jburke

VP Brewing said:


> Actually, a better way to do it and encourage everyone to put their 2c in:
> 
> Cubists
> 1. Cocko - ...2. Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing3. Technobabble66 - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)4. AJ805.VP Brewing - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing. Happy to get my hands dirty and help out with the brew on the day this time if needed. It might distract me from getting shitfaced by lunchtime and being in bed at 9....6. Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing7. Nullnvoid8. DJ_L3THAL - Kolsch9. Micbrew10. JB11. MartinOC12. Black n Tan13. Mofox114. breakbeer15.Whiteferret16. Mudd17. GrumpyPaul18. Camo619. Yob20. Siborg21. Midnight brew22. Mardoo
> 
> Reserve cubists
> 1. TheWiggman
> 2. Jburke-DIPA
> 3. mmmyummybeer
> 4. mayor of milder - Moar hoppy.
> 5. awesome fury
> 6. malt junkie
> 7. WarmBeer
> 8. droid
> 9. Reardo
> 10. thearn


----------



## jburke

Clearly i don't know how to use a phone or how to copy and paste. You get the idea though.


----------



## technobabble66

Best if you can copy and paste the latest list.


----------



## Yob

Cubists

1. Cocko - ...
2. Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
3. Technobabble66 - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)
4. AJ80 - Happy to go with the consensus 
5.VP Brewing - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing. Happy to get my hands dirty and help out with the brew on the day
6. Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
7. Nullnvoid - SMASH, just kidding, happy with whatever, after all, it's all beer right? who's with me?
8. DJ_L3THAL - Kolsch
9. Micbrew fence sitter pliny / Caledonian porter
10. JB - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
11. MartinOC - Triple-decocted Inter-Continental Ballistic Nuclear Penguin (see above).
12. Black n Tan
13. Mofox1 - OC Caledonian Porter
14. breakbeer
15.Whiteferret
16. Mudd
17. GrumpyPaul
18. Camo6
19. Yob - - DIPA/Pliny - It's been long enough..
20. Siborg
21. Midnight brew
22. Mardoo - OC Caledonian Porter

Reserve cubists
1. TheWiggman
2. Jburke
3. mmmyummybeer
4. mayor of milder - Moar hoppy.
5. awesome fury
6. malt junkie
7. WarmBeer - Gruit
8. droid
9. Reardo
10. thearn


----------



## jburke

Hopefully this works better. 
Cubists

1. Cocko - ...
2. Idzy - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
3. Technobabble66 - Saison/Kolsch, Porter/Stout, Hoppy thing, (Anything really)
4. AJ80 - Happy to go with the consensus 
5.VP Brewing - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing. Happy to get my hands dirty and help out with the brew on the day
6. Grainer - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
7. Nullnvoid - SMASH, just kidding, happy with whatever, after all, it's all beer right? who's with me?
8. DJ_L3THAL - Kolsch
9. Micbrew fence sitter pliny / Caledonian porter
10. JB - DIPA/Pliny, Complicated thing
11. MartinOC - Triple-decocted Inter-Continental Ballistic Nuclear Penguin (see above).
12. Black n Tan
13. Mofox1 - OC Caledonian Porter
14. breakbeer
15.Whiteferret
16. Mudd
17. GrumpyPaul
18. Camo6
19. Yob - - DIPA/Pliny - It's been long enough..
20. Siborg
21. Midnight brew
22. Mardoo - OC Caledonian Porter

Reserve cubists
1. TheWiggman
2. Jburke - DIPA/Pliny
3. mmmyummybeer
4. mayor of milder - Moar hoppy.
5. awesome fury
6. malt junkie
7. WarmBeer - Gruit
8. droid
9. Reardo
10. thearn


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Can I change to Pliny? I never got to try it properly, had a sip of one of idzys lasts bottles at one of the swaps after. Am intrigued!

F Kolsch, I'll make one at home [emoji12][emoji12][emoji12]


----------



## technobabble66

Looks like it's a choice between:
1) OC Caledonian Porter 
2) DIPA/Pliny

Maybe just limit choices to that from here on. 
(Which only currently applies to me & Martin. And WarmGruit).

Edit: mind you, still heaps of time to come up with a "complicated thing" - given neither the Porter or DIPA are really that complicated.


----------



## technobabble66

Could we do a DIPA version of the Caledonian Porter?
[emoji185]


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Koala Scat..... nevermind.


----------



## technobabble66

Well, it's at Kangaroo Grounds ......


Caledonian Kangaroo Double India Porter, FTW!!

Just with a little more kangaroo than people are expecting


----------



## MartinOC

Just for clarification & for consideration/discussion: You guys thinking of the 6.5%-ish version that got Vicbrew 1st in Porters a couple of years ago (also my case-swap submission), or the 10%-ish one that got multiple prizes over many years?

Be warned: The big bastard takes YEARS to become even remotely drinkable, so we're talking a long-term proposition here...


----------



## TheWiggman

Caledonian Chilli Roo...


----------



## mofox1

I was thinking the swap beer Martin. I'm too much of a grasshopper to wait for those bigguns :lol:


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Yeah the swap version. Not sure how I would have tried the big barstard when I didn't know you many years ago [emoji12][emoji106]


----------



## MartinOC

I know I said I wouldn't get involved on this one, but I got inspired by Wiggman's magnificent Patersbier from the last swap & the wheels started to churn with ideas......This is ONLY an idea - feel free to shoot me down & go in a completely different direction. It's not my baby this time.

Assuming we'll be using the same set of equipment (a mix of Idzy's & Whiteferret's gear) plus bits, I reckon we've been going about it the wrong way. Bear with me here, I'm gonna brainstorm a bit....

Rather than do one BIG main-boil & use Wayne's 205L boiler as a side-boil, do it the other way around:

Create a MASSIVE Belgian with home-made candi-sugar (made as a side-project by a dedicated team of flame-proof stirrers  ) in Wayne's 205. I'm thinking the OG would be off the scale & would be divvied-up into one of DJ Lethal's mini-cubes. 

If you get one of them (by lottery), you pay premium for it & gives Nathan the opportunity to sell some cubes to those that don't already have them. The intent is that it would be diluted to something more reasonable for fermentation. By "reasonable", I'm thinking about 1080-1090.. :chug:

The remaining wort (& leftovers from the first boil - & I mean EVERYTHING - trub, hops & all) goes into Idzy's big boiler for a Patersbier. Assume about 10% utilisation from the "spent" hops & add/adjust bittering from there. A long boil will cause the originally-coagulated proteins to break-down back into solution to create body for a light beer, which everyone else gets a full 20L cube of, at regular price.

'Dunno how "light" it'll be, but we get what what we get. Great way to build-up a sufficient yeast population for a batch of those lucky enough to score one of the "scorchers".

It'd need a bit of juggling between mash-tuns & pumping etc., but that's not my worry this time 'round. Someone else is taking the helm.. :lol:

0.02c

EDIT: Is that a sufficiently complicated brew-day/regime for those that want to complicate things?


----------



## MastersBrewery

I like the idea Martin, with a small change up, we raffle the first brew, profit to man charrity (prostate cancer, mens shed,etc .. cocko choice)


----------



## idzy

I like the idea of making candi syrup. I was talking with mofox1 about this the other week. My idea was to do the Westvleteren 12 as the main brew and then add the candi syrup from the side boil...

The key here is that the plans seem exciting, which all these ideas are, compared to just doing a simple 3 malt brew.


----------



## technobabble66

Big & exciting sounds fun.

However, 2 minor points: 

1) Recommendations from the many of the more experienced brewers who do these big belgians indicate it's generally better to add the sugarz during the fermentation, rather than starting the fermentation at full gravity. Which means it's better to keep it separate from the wort until then. May be less of an issue - if we all bring a 1L glass vessel, we can just get some from the syrup pot on the day.

2) Have you tried to make the syrup before? Take it from me, it's probably the most extreme case of what sounds easy on paper being much more tricky in practice that i've come across in brewing.
There's many different ways to do essentially the same basic process - all with different pro's & cons & there seems to be no definitive guide of which general path is best, let alone a specific guide (e.g.: source of sugars, invert or not, use acid or not, use base or not when to use it, what temps to hit, what peak to reach, etc, etc), and everyone has an opinion and theory as to what's best, complicated by the issue that most (me included) don't necessarily have enough experience or knowledge to really have much clue in the first place.
Aside from all that, however, my main concern is the boiling syrup can easily get out of control. In a pot it's easy to drop the heat if required. In a large vessel it won't be the case - remember those boil-overs in the massive kettle at Yob's place in the 2015 Case Swap - i'm concerned we might have similar scenes but with hot sticky (flammable) syrup. On the plus side, larger volumes of syrup are generally easier to maintain consistent temps due to the large heat mass, however given we will be flying a little blind on this, the down-side is if we lose control of it, it could go very pear-shaped.
The final issue is quality control - the bottom line is i think you need to do a pretty good job with the syrup to get it close to the real thing. Chances are we're going to end up with some pretty 2nd-rate burnt sugar that leaves a slight astringent bite in the beer. I normally think we have a very good chance of making beer that's equal or close-to-equal of any professional brewery. I'm concerned that this isn't the case with the syrup - it's much harder to achieve a standard similar to what $15-20 buys you from the Belgain Candi Syrup manufacturers.

I really don't want to be a wet blanket, but i have extreme reservations on the value of doing the syrup aspect of the brewing. 
So maybe it's best to look at the base wort on the day - it'll still be moderately versatile for anyone who doesn't want the full W12 result (just brew a dark ale of some sort) - and anyone who wants to do the full W12 can either do their own version of the syrup, or just get some at G&G.

Happy to be corrected on the large-scale syrup production, but i obviously have serious doubts on it working out well.


(That aside, i'd be keen to do the base wort for the W12, by the way :super: )


----------



## MastersBrewery

The only issue with W12 is yeast, fresh yeast cake, and O2 has worked well in the past, but I should have used a bigger fermenter.


----------



## TheWiggman

Brew a Patersbier then throw the big beer on the cake - done.


----------



## MartinOC

TheWiggman said:


> Brew a Patersbier then throw the big beer on the cake - done.


That's exactly what I was thinking.


----------



## technobabble66

Quick update/revival on this.

It basically seems to come down to either:
1) *Westvleteren 12 clone* (as the "complicated thing")
2) *Pliny the Elder clone* (as the 1° DIPA option)

------------------
So, to clarify:
Westy 12 clone = per cube: ~9kg grain (Pils & Ale), + ~1.5kg D180 Belgian Candi Syrup.
Pliny clone = per cube: ~6.5kg grain (Ale, Light Crystal, CaraPils), + 0.34kg Dex
------------------
The Pliny clone simply needs a staggering amount of hops in it, and comes out to a face-peeling bitterness.
Big enough that a second runnings could be done as a light APA.

The Westy 12 could have a few options to complicate things.
One is a decoction - not sure how that'll work on a large scale like this, but might be doable. I'd probably be tempted to just sub in a little Melanoiden and skip this step. Or do a smaller decoction plus use the Melanoiden.
The second is the caramelisation reduction of the first runnings of the wort - this we could do, and i think we should.
Third is try to make some candi syrup on the day - this i think will be a disaster, and i'd rather see if the Clever Brewing guy could source a large batch/BB of D180 from CSI and just add it to the cube cost.
Also definitely big enough that a second runnings could be done as a light ale or APA.
------------------


I personally think the Westy 12 is the better option.
The Pliny is great, but very simple - both appealing and boring. It's also pretty much just going to be a DIPA, as almost all hops go into the boil, so we're stuck with massive IBUs & hoppiness (not a bad thing, but not versatile if others want another option for their cube)
The Westy 12 can be almost anything, as going into the cube will be a more lightly hopped super-strong Pils/Ale malt wort - the syrup can be added during fermentation, and this is what i'd go with for this recipe. Those who want to go for the Belgian options can either buy the syrup or make their own. Those who want something else can put different hops into the cube. Yeasts are similar - no D180 but use belgian yeasts = strong Blond, English yeasts = Wee heavy-ish, Old Ale, etc.. Dilution to 30L is also an option, and again, make it into whatever you want, Saison, etc.
The Westy 12 also has the main option of doing a side-boil for caramelisation - which worked well for the Wee Heavy last year.
The decoction may be too tricky, as the large mass of grain will burn on the bottom of the kettle - it'll most likely be too difficult to keep such a large mass stirred & moving. I'd opt for the Melanoiden option and keep this bit simple.
The syrup boil is very very risky and highly likely to produce bad syrup. I'd avoid this. If you're keen, i'd suggest just doing it at home on the smaller scale. OTOH, if some want to have a crack on the day, they could always BYO sugarz & set it up themselves. I'll stay well away myself!


*Thoughts?*



FWIW, I'd def vote for the Westy 12. (Just with some Melanoiden & the side-boil.)


----------



## JB

I was all for the Pliny, but I really do like the sound of changing things up with including some of the decoction / melanoiden / caramelisation reduction / candi syrup processes

*Westvleteren 12 clone*

1. technobabble66
2. JB

*Pliny the Elder clone*


----------



## GrumpyPaul

My vote doesn't count - because I never turn up.

If I do get there I'll be happy with whatever.

But I was leaning towards the Pliny


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Westvleteren 12 clone

1. technobabble66
2. JB
3. DJ_L3thAL

Pliny the Elder clone


----------



## VP Brewing

I like where this is heading.

Westvleteren 12 clone

1. technobabble66
2. JB
3. DJ_L3thAL
4. VP Brewing

Pliny the Elder clone


----------



## MartinOC

Westvleteren 12 clone

1. technobabble66
2. JB
3. DJ_L3thAL
4. VP Brewing
5. MartinOC

Pliny the Elder clone 


I "MAY" be able to source some appropriate Dark Candi Syrup in bulk, but don't hang your hats on it just yet. That's something I've got the Boss onto atm & everything is currently in the negotiation-phase.

I'll come back to you....


----------



## malt junkie

Don't know that it's required on the day; I usually add candy during the ferment once the beer has hit 1025 odd and then in stages over a few days.

I hope to be getting my hands dirty helping brew this one, if John will let me.


----------



## MartinOC

malt junkie said:


> I hope to be getting my hands dirty helping brew this one, if John will let me.


This one is Stu's baby. What HE says goes.


----------



## technobabble66

Looking like the Westy clone has the popular vote so far! See how it pans out over the next few days & if it continues to be this one sided we'll call it. 

Martin, that'd be fantastic if you could get the D180, especially if it comes in at a bargain price! (No biggie if not, though) Would you like a list set up to get EOI for it for this brew?

@ malt junkie, yep that's what I'd planned for, adding the syrup at ~3/4's through the fermentation. That way anyone who wants to do something different with their cube can do so, including trying out a different syrup. Hell, you could throw 100+g of hops into the cube and still come away with a DIPA or Imperial IPA. 

And my plan is to delegate like crazy. So there'll definitely be things to dirty your hands on [emoji6]

EDIT: we could even call it: KangaFlateren 12 [emoji41]


----------



## WarmerBeer

Westvleteren 12 clone

1. technobabble66
2. JB
3. DJ_L3thAL
4. VP Brewing
5. MartinOC
6. WarmerBeer

Pliny the Elder clone 




Dunno if this is going to bump me up the "cubers" list. Last time I looked, I was Reserve #47.


----------



## technobabble66

Given up on the Gruit, wb?


----------



## AJ80

Westvleteren 12 clone

1. technobabble66
2. JB
3. DJ_L3thAL
4. VP Brewing
5. MartinOC
6. WarmerBeer

Pliny the Elder clone 
1. AJ80 (but only because I've already got a cube of westy12 waiting for a yeast cake...)


----------



## technobabble66

Out of interest, who organised the last one? Was that you, Martin?

I'm keen to get an idea of the numbers used/estimated - volumes, efficiency, losses, etc.
Namely the estimates & then what actually occurred.

Cheers


(AJ80, of course you've got a westy12 in a cube! :lol: BTW, you could always use a different syrup (D90 for example) and make a different one (Westy 8, for example ... just saying. Though i can definitely appreciate you're probably keen for a non-Belgian beer by now h34r: )


----------



## WarmerBeer

technobabble66 said:


> Given up on the Gruit, wb?


Nah, just planning on dry-bog-myrtling in the cube


----------



## Mardoo

Westvleteren 12 clone

1. technobabble66
2. JB
3. DJ_L3thAL
4. VP Brewing
5. MartinOC
6. WarmerBeer
7. Mardoo

Pliny the Elder clone 
1. AJ80 (but only because I've already got a cube of westy12 waiting for a yeast cake...) 


Like This


Back to top
Quote
MultiQuote


----------



## Nullnvoid

Westvleteren 12 clone

1. technobabble66
2. JB
3. DJ_L3thAL
4. VP Brewing
5. MartinOC
6. WarmerBeer
7. Mardoo
8. Nullnvoid (It sounds like double dutch with what needs to happen but it's peaked my interest)

Pliny the Elder clone 
1. AJ80 (but only because I've already got a cube of westy12 waiting for a yeast cake...)


----------



## MartinOC

technobabble66 said:


> Out of interest, who organised the last one? Was that you, Martin?


Yeah, I put the recipe together & sourced most of the malts, but basically left everyone who had gear there (since they already know their kit) & was willing to help, actually execute the plan & just get on with it....Apart from Voldemort's interjections.... 

I stepped-in a couple of times to offer suggestions, coordinate & make "executive decisions"  , but it pretty-much worked itself-out.

BTW guys, as of today, CB can source C-180 Candi Syrup if you want it. I was kinda-sorta hoping we could get a bulk supply to reduce costs, but it'd be just too hard to coordinate a split on the day (not to mention messy!), so it's gonna have to come in 450g sachets. They're pretty exy (probably about $15-$17 per pouch-TBA), but we can do it.

We're only planning on getting-in the dark & light syrups (ie. not the full range), so if you want some lighter stuff, lemme know & I'll see what I can do for you.

I'll need to know interested numbers ASAP, as our supplier is about to place an order & we need to jump on the opportunity before the event.


----------



## Mardoo

This is the candisyrup.com stuff? If so, I'm definitely interested in a few. Can you get the D-240? Also the Golden is very interesting in paler beers, heavily C hopped ones, in my opinion.


----------



## MartinOC

Yep, that's the stuff.

However, rather than over-committing with big orders of too much/many, we're just going to "test" the market with a couple of them first & see how it goes.

I "can" ask for some D-240, but can't make any firm committments. Dunno if they'll supply.


----------



## Mardoo

OK, I'd love to have a go with some 240, if you can get it. I ordered their full range a couple years ago. I was contemplating going for distributorship. They're fantastic syrups with some good subtlety in there. Too bad we can't just get a cube of it!

Candisyrup D-180 syrup

Mardoo: 3


----------



## MartinOC

A cube+ from another supplier we can possibly do, but like I said, it's likely to be very messy to do a split on the day.

Dunno volumes or prices.

Leave it with me...


----------



## MartinOC

A cube+ from another supplier we can possibly do, but like I said, it's likely to be very messy to do a split on the day.

Dunno volumes or prices.

Leave it with me...


----------



## technobabble66

D-180 (I'm assuming that's a typo above [emoji57]) will be fantastic, Martin!
It's a bit exxy considering what it costs in the U.S., but the quality is far greater than cheaper/homemade options, and freight adds up [emoji53] Seems a decent price. 
Out of interest, what was the deal with BB options? Volume, namely, and price (to us, that is). Maybe PM me if you prefer. I'm asking mainly out of curiosity as it sounds too much hassle to follow up on. Fwiw, I also read on the CSI site that once their packs are opened they should be used within 30 days, so that might put an additional limit on any BB plans. (& also makes me wonder about quality of the Candi syrup grain&grape repackage).


----------



## technobabble66

Double post of Enthusiasm.


----------



## Mardoo

When I got some in myself a few years ago, it was very close to the same price. It's exxy stuff to import, and most of that is shipping. There are no cheap shipping options any more from the US to Oz. We used to be able to do sea freight, but that's been eliminated.


----------



## Mardoo

Mardoo said:


> This is the candisyrup.com stuff? If so, I'm definitely interested in a few. Can you get the D-240? Also the Golden is very interesting in paler beers, heavily C hopped ones, in my opinion.


Oops, I meant to say the Simplicity here, not the Golden.


----------



## technobabble66

Ahh that makes a bit more sense, mardoo. The descriptions sound like they intend Simplicity to be for the paler beers. 
Mind you, Golden sounds pretty damn good. 
And D-45
And D-90 [emoji1]

Man, I wish I knew how to make this stuff!!
I'd even consider a new career and see if the Aussie craft Brewers might start delving deeper into Belgian styles


----------



## Mardoo

They use dates in the D-180, just to whet your thinkerator.


----------



## technobabble66

Yep. Already saw and noted that [emoji6] 
Already purchased both hard and syrup date sugar [emoji41]
Lining up a few more test batches, then onto the date sugarz!!


----------



## Mardoo

Their rep made reference to pressure vessels in their production facility when we had a conversation around distributing. And skilfully evaded my further questions…


----------



## technobabble66

Thanks, Big M! - *that* i didn't know.
I suspected there might've been some tricksy stuff being used in their process like pressure vessels - but i'd never know.

I'd guess they use pressure vessels to get the high temp points without needing to wait for the water to boil off sufficiently to allow the syrup to naturally hit them. All the fun happens ~115-135°C, which is pretty easy for pressure vessels to achieve. It'd most likely avoid some of the scorching issues also, as the liquid is much less viscous. 
And i'd assume they've got spiffy kettles where they can hold certain temps perfectly & indefinitely - basically like an STC controlled kettle ... hmmm ... i wonder if i could get an Induction plate from Aldi, plus a stovetop pressure cooker, plus an STC ... hmmm ...

I believe the Belgians do their processing over up-to-3-days. I wonder if CSI does likewise?

Pity they were dodging any other info, though thanks for trying to delve! Unfortunately, it's the main reason they're so successful - they've spent a lot of time researching the best methods with great resources/equipment. If their process was known to others, anyone could open a competing business ASAP. Hell, i know i would! So they've got to be all secret squirrel about everything in their process. Man, i'd love to know even just the temp points they use! After extensive researching, it's pretty obvious everything on the internets is all just guesswork, unfortunately.


----------



## malt junkie

This discussion needs to move to the candy thread where I'll be able to find it when I start playin with sugars.

Martin are you going to start a buy thread for the Candy your getting definitely interested!


----------



## MartinOC

I might do it a bit closer to the date, depending on how many we can get & time between ordering & receiving.


----------



## idzy

MartinOC, if we can arrange someone who is willing to coordinate the split, we could do it as a bulk buy. I know i would be interested in a couple KG.

Edit: Split to be done a couple of weeks (at least) prior to swap.


----------



## technobabble66

So, with approximately 89% of all brewers preferring to brew a Westy 12 clone instead of a DIPA* we'll go ahead with the *Westy 12 clone* recipe.

The next issue is whether we can source the ingredients.

First up, we need *Pilsner malt (~95kg) and Ale malt (~49kg)*. Preferably belgian (dingemanns) if possible.
I think it's best to go with some *Melandoiden (~3.65kg)* as well, to compensate for a probably lack of a decoction, or at least a large volume decoction.

Next is the hops.
*680g each of Brewer's Gold, Hallertau Mittlefrau, and Styrians Goldings*.

Finally the Dark Candi Syrup
*24kg of D-180*
-------------------------------
Now is anyone willing to donate any of their supplies? If not, we'll see if we can source it from CleverBrewing, and possibly hopdealz for the hops. 

This obviously will all tally up to a "per-cube" cost, similar to previous case-swap-brews. The probable target here is to get a committed list of cubers, possibly to get the cash transferred before the swap (namely, i'm broke, so i can't afford to fork out for any more than my share in this). I'll iron out further details with CB as to how best to go about this. FWIW, those that donate offset their "per-cube cost", again similar to the previous CSB's

CB seem likely to be able to supply the D-180, so we also need to assess how many are keen to go with the D-180 - whether it's everyone or if some would prefer to avoid it and do something else with their cube.
Hopefully CB can also supply any shortfall (or all) of the malts.
I actually might be able to supply the Melanoiden myself.
------------------------

We also need to start confirming who can supply gear. Hopefully Adam & Wayne are definites for gear, as that might solve 90% of the needs right there.
------------------------

Any thoughts/suggestions (or commitments  )?











* Maybe not be completely accurate


----------



## MartinOC

I've just posted-up an EOI thread for Candi-sugar to go with this under my alter-ego h34r:, plus other options....

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/92617-melb-candi-sugar/#entry1406449


----------



## MartinOC

Whoops! A bit tardy on my part! 'Thought I'd already replied to this.

I've asked the Boss to add 100Kg of Dingemans Pils & 50Kg Dingemans Pale & 60L of D2 Candi to the next CB order from Cryer.

Confirmation is yet TBA. Probably OK, 'though.

Melanoidin - Possibly.

Stu, please adjust your recipe according to the nice round numbers...


----------



## Yob

Yeah.. Round up...


----------



## MartinOC

Yob said:


> Yeah.. Round up...


Juice Junkie..


----------



## technobabble66

MartinOC said:


> Juice Junkie..


(Nah, he just has a small thumb)


[emoji185]


[emoji1]


----------



## technobabble66

News Flash:
Apparently Wayne can't attend due to real life reasons/lameness, so ... 
Can anyone else bring a large-ish kettle that we could do a reduction boil on?

Also, for the Brewers attending that 2015 kinglake shenanigans:, who supplied the mash tuns, etc? 
If Wayne supplied any of it (apart from the kettle) we need to ensure other parts are covered. 
Essentially we're repeating a similar brewing schedule to the Wee Heavy, so I'm working on the framework of what was done in kinglake (aside from the 4*C ambient).


----------



## malt junkie

Define large-ish mine top out at 100L, on the scale we did last that would be well too small.


----------



## mofox1

I got my 180L that I was trying to offload on here.

However, it needs a frame made up, and a valve to fit the 1" outlet.. anyone have a 1" to 1/2" bushing?


----------



## malt junkie

Are Vic swaps now at a point where we make a formal association, with a commitee. If so we could then as a group fund equipment purchases. $50 each would get us a decent 800-1000L tank. Further aside from swap days there are a few guys around the Melboune area that do collab brew days, and clubs, we could hire the kit out, to allow for further equipment purchases.

A lot of us spent more than $50 in fuel attending the last swap and will do so again to get to future swaps. I'd happily fork over some dough even if I was still on the reserve list.

As it currently stands equipment has fallen on the shoulders of a few, I'm sure they know it's appreciated. Maybe it's time we as a group take on some of that burden.


----------



## Mayor of Mildura

I've got some 150l pots, burner, pump. i can bring along if useful.


----------



## Curly79

I can lend my Mongolian burner and stand. Also got my 45kg gas bottle full of cheap gas if you want that too. Probably not gunna make it to the swap but will throw it in with Martin or drop it off myself if needed.


----------



## mofox1

What size is the stand Curly?


----------



## malt junkie

Wonder what shipping on this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/122194879089 would be? Any one driving to Newy and back anytime soon?


----------



## idzy

technobabble66 said:


> News Flash:
> Apparently Wayne can't attend due to real life reasons/lameness, so ...
> Can anyone else bring a large-ish kettle that we could do a reduction boil on?
> 
> Also, for the Brewers attending that 2015 kinglake shenanigans:, who supplied the mash tuns, etc?
> If Wayne supplied any of it (apart from the kettle) we need to ensure other parts are covered.
> Essentially we're repeating a similar brewing schedule to the Wee Heavy, so I'm working on the framework of what was done in kinglake (aside from the 4*C ambient).


We usually use Waynes MLT too.

Does Cocko have instant hot water?

Mick, I am happy to source fittings for your pot. Please sms me photos of outlet and diamensions of it/tank. I can also weld up a frame for it.

We also probably need to look at a back up recipe Stu. This is an ambitious recipe for ghetto and unknown gear.

Maybe something with candi so that Martin doesn't have a cardiac arrest.


----------



## Mardoo

Yeah, I've been thinking 



malt junkie said:


> Are Vic swaps now at a point where we make a formal association, with a commitee. If so we could then as a group fund equipment purchases. $50 each would get us a decent 800-1000L tank. Further aside from swap days there are a few guys around the Melboune area that do collab brew days, and clubs, we could hire the kit out, to allow for further equipment purchases.
> 
> A lot of us spent more than $50 in fuel attending the last swap and will do so again to get to future swaps. I'd happily fork over some dough even if I was still on the reserve list.
> 
> As it currently stands equipment has fallen on the shoulders of a few, I'm sure they know it's appreciated. Maybe it's time we as a group take on some of that burden.


I've long thought we should make up a dual HEX that could handle up to one 500L mash tun each. I'd be happy to make them, but just can't foot the bill for all the copper and the vessels. I probably have all the fittings needed. Any plumbers here who can get/give mates rates on annealed copper?


----------



## malt junkie

Well the freight for the kettle posted above is over $500, that aint going to fly. If I hadn't pranged the car I'd be packing for a trip to my old stomping grounds to pick that kettle up, nice bit of kit!


----------



## MartinOC

idzy said:


> We also probably need to look at a back up recipe Stu. This is an ambitious recipe for ghetto and unknown gear.
> 
> Maybe something with candi so that Martin doesn't have a cardiac arrest.


I'm having minor fibrillations now..... The Dingemanns Pils & Pale Ale malts have already been ordered. Please don't go changing things now..


----------



## Curly79

mofox1 said:


> What size is the stand Curly?


500x500 x 500 high.


----------



## micbrew

I found these 1000 litres tanks , I think they are asian made from 304 ssteel
the mob selling them can weld fittings & also make a stand for them etc etc
perfect for swap days

price was about $1k from memory .... this would certainly expand the cubing list.

the possibilities seem endless..... we could actually also start a barreling program with something like this ....hmmmm

24 x swappers and or cubist = $1200 .... $50 per head

just saying !

micbrew


----------



## Mardoo

MartinOC said:


> I'm having minor fibrillations now..... The Dingemanns Pils & Pale Ale malts have already been ordered. Please don't go changing things now..


Whatever backup recipe has to use the same malt! And swappers buy the extra bags. I'll take one of each ;0)


----------



## mofox1

Mardoo said:


> Whatever backup recipe has to use the same malt! And swappers buy the extra bags. I'll take one of each ;0)


Haha, yep.. I'd be in on that.

Chill Mr O'C... We haven't even begun to mess with you yet.


----------



## MartinOC

mofox1 said:


> Chill Mr O'C... We haven't even begun to mess with you yet.


Tish & pish Mr Foxie. I'm not scared. I have friends with guns..Big ones... :blink:


----------



## Nullnvoid

MartinOC said:


> Tish & pish Mr Foxie. I'm not scared. I have friends with guns..Big ones... :blink:


It's not nice to call your friends fat 

See what I did there?


----------



## mofox1

MartinOC said:


> Tish & pish Mr Foxie. I'm not scared. I have friends with guns..Big ones... :blink:


Excellent... They're welcome too. I'm sure you can take it


----------



## mofox1

Curly79 said:


> 500x500 x 500 high.


Hrm, too small to sit on top . Let's see what magic idzy can do.

(I'll message you the measurements tomoz Ads)


----------



## technobabble66

malt junkie said:


> Are Vic swaps now at a point where we make a formal association, with a commitee. If so we could then as a group fund equipment purchases. $50 each would get us a decent 800-1000L tank. Further aside from swap days there are a few guys around the Melboune area that do collab brew days, and clubs, we could hire the kit out, to allow for further equipment purchases.
> 
> A lot of us spent more than $50 in fuel attending the last swap and will do so again to get to future swaps. I'd happily fork over some dough even if I was still on the reserve list.
> 
> As it currently stands equipment has fallen on the shoulders of a few, I'm sure they know it's appreciated. Maybe it's time we as a group take on some of that burden.


I think we could probably go ahead with the committee.
It's pretty consistent with some of the main contributors, and the experience/IP of those who've organised the different elements is a massive aid to each one.
Might need to look at an incorporated club, or some such. The Merri Mashers have fairly recently formed, utilising a good system/structure, so it might be best to look at how that was done and replicate it. Just an idea.

----------------------
I'm not sure about the $$ contribution to group gear simply because it presents 2 problems:
1) where are we going to store the stuff?
Can it be used in between Case Swaps? then there's issues with some that paid would get enormous benefit from it, others won't, wear & tear, etc.

2) how do we sort out access to the cubes/brew days compared to those who contribute?
some people attend every one, some attend every 2nd one, some only make the occasional one. Not everyone who attends can get their name down for a cube, etc. Another part of this is, if the gear is to be used for years, how do we account for this cost over a time period - is it all just one big cost up front, or do we defray it over a few case swaps? Maybe each swap the contribution pays for 1 major piece of gear, and we continue to fill whatever gaps with private gear until we have the full set in a few years.

I'm definitely not saying we shouldn't or can't do it, more just flagging some issues that need to be resolved before embarking on that part of the plan. I'm also partly flagging these concerns as i'm unfortunately tight for cash - i appreciate others might be less stressed about $50 and this might seem like overcomplicating things.

Just my 2c B)


----------



## technobabble66

idzy said:


> We usually use Waynes MLT too.
> 
> Does Cocko have instant hot water?
> 
> Mick, I am happy to source fittings for your pot. Please sms me photos of outlet and diamensions of it/tank. I can also weld up a frame for it.
> 
> We also probably need to look at a back up recipe Stu. This is an ambitious recipe for ghetto and unknown gear.
> 
> Maybe something with candi so that Martin doesn't have a cardiac arrest.





MartinOC said:


> I'm having minor fibrillations now..... The Dingemanns Pils & Pale Ale malts have already been ordered. Please don't go changing things now..


The recipe is hopefully going to replicate the Wee Heavy brew day up at Kinglake.
So i'm hoping that if we replicate the gear from there, or very close to it, it *should* replicate the result - only this will be paler, use different hops, be boosted/darkened by the Candi Syrup from CB (to be added at home), and use Belgian yeasts.
Basically the targeted OG is very similar and essentially what i'm basing my assumptions on, that we simply need to replicate the Kinglake effort.
The Wee Heavy OG was ~1.088. The Westy12 clone should be ~1.078, with the syrup added to boost it to ~1.094. I think we're also using a little more malt than required (~6kg) to make it simpler, and might help with a little extra "efficiency"

I'm also working on the assumption that if it either goes tits up on the day and the OG is lower, or gear constraints etc mean we have to aim smaller, that the recipe being used should essentially still "work." The addition of the Candi syrup can either be lessened or increased, dropped, altered, etc to compensate one way or the other. That's part of the beauty of the Westy12 clone - the syrup provides a safety net variable to either compensate for Mr Cock-Up, or simply alter the wort to produce whatever other beer you want. Furthermore, the recipe is basically just Pale & Pilsner, plus a whisker of Melanoiden. So it's a fairly workable blank canvas even in a worst case scenario (i hope!! :lol: ). So i believe either way, we will make use of the ingredients Martin has lined up for it.

Ideally we'll also draw off roughly 150L to do a side-boil to reduce and caramelise while the main boil is starting/going, to be added in towards the end of the boil. This isn't absolutely necessary, but still pretty important. It's what Wayne's kettle was going to be used for - i believe we used his at Kinglake for this. So his absence shouldn't be too hard to fill on this front - whether it's done in a single or 2 smaller vessels it should be fine.

The real testicle kicker is whether we can cover his MLT. Was that a 200L?
We need to determine how to cover for that, most importantly.


Another issue that springs to mind is the slim chance we'll be able to do a lesser Westy12 batch as well. Again, similar to the Wee Heavy - i believe for that brew the sparge run-off at the end was still so high some of the guys collected wort for a second beer (?). Again, if we can pull that off, i'm not sure how we div'y it up, but probably best for everyone who might be interested to bring a second cube, and maybe some hops to cube, etc. Again, i need to converse with the brewers from Kinglake to check how they did the 2nd batch.


----------



## MartinOC

Stu, RDWHAHB! It'll work it's way out - always has...

OK, let's make it simple:

CALL-OUT:

1. Anyone with a big pot & burners available - bring 'em.

2. Got a pump & cam-lock fittings of any sort? Bring 'em.

3. Got some gash silicone hose? Bring it.

4. Got a moveable HEX? Bring it.

5. Got a big esky/MT? Bring it.

There you go - we'll make-do with whatever we have available to get the job done. There may be "some  " discussion about how to achieve the goal, but it's always a team effort (ultimately, Stu gets last decision  ).

The Kinglake Wee Heavy was a very simple recipe/plan (deliberately). It was only when other(s) jumped-in & started changing things on the fly (without consultation :angry: ), that the plan changed.

Yeah, we've got a LOT better efficiency out of the cobbled-together system than was ever imagined (that's happened a couple of times now) & we ended-up with more available extract & not enough boilers to transfer it to. The 2nd-runnings beer I got out of the wee-heavy mash was run-off the next morning (cold) as a target of opportunity during the clean-up, not planned. I ended-up with about 50L of 1057 post-boil, but I gotta say, it wasn't great.

There's NO IP on swap recipe's, as it gets discussed & worked-out here, so it's open.

We'll get there....


----------



## technobabble66

Aah - we also need to sort out the hops.
ie: who's supplying what.

*Would either Yob/Hopdealz or Martin/CB be able or keen to supply what's needed?* (no pressure, totally fine if not, of course!)

Ideally we need 680-700g each of Brewer's Gold, Hallertau Mitt, and Styrians.

Brewer's Gold goes in at 60mins (**** it, i reckon we go in at FWH). So if we can't get BG, then i'd be happy to go with suggestions, namely anything that seems reasonably close. If needs be, it'll be fine to go with whatever you're happy to throw at it, but i'd like to try for something close if possible.
I notice HDA & CB have a few euro hops at the moment, however most of them have seriously low %AA's. I was thinking maybe Northern Brewer at a pinch, though Magnum or even Warrior could possibly work. Totally dependant on whether either of you are keen to supply some bulk hops, and if so, which ones you're able/keen to supply.
FWIW, I'd normally be much much less picky about hops, and more happy to go with whatever, however given this may be cellared for at least a year on top of normal brewing time/effort (and maybe barrelled!), i'd be keen to get the basics as "right" as possible rather than realise in a year's time "oh yeah, that doesn't quite work".

The Hall Mitt goes in at 30mins and the Styrians goes in at 10mins.
Happy to these 2 to cubed hops and adjust amounts accordingly. That means it's down to the individuals to supply these or whatever else they want.
Otherwise the Hall Mitt could be added at, say, 20mins (plus whirlpool) and the Styrians the only cubed hops (that the individual can worry about).
Thoughts on this aspect?? (especially from Yob or Martin)



EDIT: finished this and replied after Martin's post above. Lol, i'll try to chill, Martin!


----------



## idzy

technobabble66 said:


> Aah - we also need to sort out the hops.
> ie: who's supplying what.
> 
> *Would either Yob/Hopdealz or Martin/CB be able or keen to supply what's needed?* (no pressure, totally fine if not, of course!)


My preference is to first ask Yob, as he has been very good with supplying in the past and assume he will want to again. Alternatively, we can get CB/Martin to supply with grain if Yob can't/won't.


----------



## idzy

Fellas, I have made a few calls, pulled a few favours, spent a few dollars and can confirm that I will be bringing the following gear:

Kettle (600 litres) - gas fired
White MLT (275 litres) - need to build a manifold
Blue MLT (275 litres)
White MLT (155 litres)
HLT (180 litres) - gas fired - need to build a stand
HEX (internal/external element) with 2x STC-1000 - 2x20amp req'd
Cheers,
Idzy


----------



## malt junkie

I can probably cover another HX (quick order with martin should sort the short comings), So probably a couple of gas fired HLTs and we're looking pretty.


----------



## technobabble66

idzy said:


> My preference is to first ask Yob, as he has been very good with supplying in the past and assume he will want to again. Alternatively, we can get CB/Martin to supply with grain if Yob can't/won't.


Agree. V happy to go with Yob, if he's up for it. I just didn't want to pressure/harass him into feeling obligated. [emoji57]


----------



## technobabble66

idzy said:


> Fellas, I have made a few calls, pulled a few favours, spent a few dollars and can confirm that I will be bringing the following gear:
> 
> Kettle (600 litres) - gas fired
> White MLT (275 litres) - need to build a manifold
> Blue MLT (275 litres)
> White MLT (155 litres)
> HLT (180 litres) - gas fired - need to build a stand
> HEX (internal/external element) with 2x STC-1000 - 2x20amp req'd
> Cheers,
> Idzy


****, dude. 
That's massive!
There's ~80% of our gear right there [emoji106][emoji106]

Edit: plus with MJ's HEX, it's looking like we might be getting closer. As Martin mentioned, if a few more can bring HEXs, MLT and HLTs (plus hoses) we should be peachy. Plus many gas bottles! I'll try trawling thru the wee heavy thread to get a gear summary as a comparison. 

Again: ****, idzy. Huge amount of gear you're contributing. Most appreciated!


----------



## MartinOC

Sorry, but CB just isn't geared-up to supply the required hops in sufficient quantities for this.


----------



## Yob

Plate > stepping ..

I like the styrian dry hopping idea Stu, 


I'll see if I can met a kilo of Brewers gold ( might even have it) not sure about the Hallertau Mittlefru but will have a look.


----------



## technobabble66

Cheers, Jesse (& totes fine Martin). 
See what you can organize. If necessary we could use a little of HallMitt (however much you've got to supply) or something similar, and then shift the majority of that addition to cubes as well. 
That way everyone else can worry about sorting it [emoji1]


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

I've got a 70L gas fired (Italian spiral) pot I can bring if it helps/is big enough? Will just need someone to bring back (I've gotta leave mid afternoon for family event) or if Cocko can store until following weekend I can come back and collect as it's not far from me.


----------



## TheWiggman

I've got a 2000W HEx, pump and 2 x PIDs that only need a 10A plug each. Everything in my system's electric otherwise.
Ed: also got a box of tricks with many camlocks and silicone hose.


----------



## MartinOC

Good news/bad news time.....

Good News: The Dingemans Pilsner has been delivered to CB & we've got 100Kg.

Bad News: The Dingemans Pale Ale Malt isn't available.

Good News: CB has 100Kg of Weyermann Pale Ale malt that should fit the substitution bill admirably, so 50Kg isn't a problem.

Good News: We've got the Candi-sugars we wanted.

I'll contact everyone via PM about doing the Candi-sugar split-up & $'s (it's $7/500g except Idzy).


----------



## technobabble66

Great on the Pilsner & Candi sugar!
Pity about the ding pale ale, but wey PA should still be great for it, as you say. 
Thanks again to CB!

Getting some (bulk) yeast in for this also?


----------



## MartinOC

technobabble66 said:


> Getting some (bulk) yeast in for this also?


We got a fresh delivery of WLP stuff on Thursday & everything has been loaded to the CB website, so it's dealer's choice on what you want to use for this one.

If anyone wants anything from CB for the weekend & wants to save on delivery charges, get onto me ASAP, as I plan on NOT being at work on the Friday.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

What's the yeast used in Westy 12?


----------



## malt junkie

500 or 530 0ff the top of my head.


----------



## technobabble66

WLP-530


----------



## Mardoo

Wyeast 3787 is equivalent, if not the same strain.


----------



## manticle

malt junkie said:


> Are Vic swaps now at a point where we make a formal association, with a commitee. If so we could then as a group fund equipment purchases. $50 each would get us a decent 800-1000L tank. Further aside from swap days there are a few guys around the Melboune area that do collab brew days, and clubs, we could hire the kit out, to allow for further equipment purchases.
> 
> A lot of us spent more than $50 in fuel attending the last swap and will do so again to get to future swaps. I'd happily fork over some dough even if I was still on the reserve list.
> 
> As it currently stands equipment has fallen on the shoulders of a few, I'm sure they know it's appreciated. Maybe it's time we as a group take on some of that burden.



Late to the party and no longer directly involved with swaps so anyone can (politely) tell me to butt out at any time.

However, if you have concerns about responsibilities falling on the shoulders of a few (common issue) then a committee is simply a way of formalising that. Same people accept responsibility voluntarily, probably do a half decent job and then get voted in to do it next time and all the times thereafter.

Swaps have always been a communal, informal affair. I remember an old swapper getting upset that people were suggesting purchasing malt for the brew rather than everyone just pitching in. Yes, things grow and times change but extending too much from the informality moves more into club territory. Nothing wrong with that but is that where you truly want to head, considering the number of clubs already active in VIC?

Anyway good luck with it and although I'm interstate, I hope at some point I can visit VIC again and time it with a swap. Had some good fun at those swaps.


----------



## bullsneck

Out of interest, where was the Westy XII recipe sourced? I had one the other night and it was hands down the greatest beer I have had. Liquid velvet of the God's (or at least St Sixtus).


----------



## technobabble66

Sourced from CSI (Candi Syrup Inc.)
There will likely be a few (minor?) changes - namely from the supply of hops, and the Dingemanns PA malt has been swapped for Weyermann (again, due to supply constraint).


Probably a timely reminder - everyone needs to sort out their own Hall Mitt & Styrians for cube-hopping (or Argon method re-boil), or whatever else they're planning to put into their cube.


----------



## Nullnvoid

technobabble66 said:


> Sourced from CSI (Candi Syrup Inc.)
> There will likely be a few (minor?) changes - namely from the supply of hops, and the Dingemanns PA malt has been swapped for Weyermann (again, due to supply constraint).
> 
> 
> Probably a timely reminder - everyone needs to sort out their own Hall Mitt & Styrians for cube-hopping (or Argon method re-boil), or whatever else they're planning to put into their cube.


How much of each does the recipe recommend?

And can hop deals make up little care packages?


----------



## Mardoo

I can shoot you some Nully.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Looks to be 30g per 20L cube

HOPS:
Description weight (oz) a/a % Duration (min)
Hallertau Mittelfrueh 30g 5.0% *30min - Needs to be adjusted for cube*
Styrian Goldings 30g 5.0% *15min - Needs to be adjusted for cube*


----------



## Nullnvoid

Mardoo said:


> I can shoot you some Nully.


Oh brilliant, thanks mate!!


----------



## malt junkie

Yob has the styrians @ $64/Kg (2x 500g without discount)

G&G have Hall Mitt @ $59/Kg

$5.20 each would cover the lot of us


----------



## technobabble66

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Looks to be 30g per 20L cube
> 
> HOPS:
> Description weight (oz) a/a % Duration (min)
> Hallertau Mittelfrueh 30g 5.0% *30min - Needs to be adjusted for cube*
> Styrian Goldings 30g 5.0% *15min - Needs to be adjusted for cube*


This. 
However my AA% for these is different - ~3% for HM & ~5.2% for Styrians. 
My version of the recipe on my spreadsheet works out to be 40g of each into the cube (my hops are 2014). 
So you need to tweak it slightly depending on the AA% of whatever year of hops your using. 

I notice Yob's (2015) Styrians are ~3%, so if the HM you source or whatever you use is ~5%, the amounts should be the same. 

Keep in mind whatever you use, it's meant to age for 1 year, (or more) so the hops should fade slightly.


----------



## Camo6

technobabble66 said:


> Keep in mind whatever you use, it's meant to age for 1 year, (or more) so the hops should fade slightly.



Geesus. That's gonna be a struggle...


----------



## MartinOC

Camo6 said:


> Geesus. That's gonna be a struggle...


PATIENCE Grasshopper.....


----------



## micbrew

g day Martin all paid up on za cube 

cheers micbrew


----------



## Yob

I think there is plenty of SG if it's needed/wanted, can do better than listed price, need to check on HM though, I suspect there isn't much in the freezer but can probably source some


----------



## malt junkie

Yob,
I'd be happy for you to source/supply hops for this but as always it comes down to how many want to get on board. I have goldings and I have Hallertua but not the right variants. I'm in if we can get a croud, pain in the bum to chase those down where I live as you prolly know.

thanks for the offer, and hope we can get some on board.


----------



## mofox1

I don't have either. Happy to source by myself or with others... but if Yob can source some I'll be onto him, er, it, in a second.


----------



## idzy

Please source for me too Yob


----------



## VP Brewing

Yeah I don't have styrians. Was going to use willamette instead but if you can get me some it would be unreal Yob.


----------



## TheWiggman

Plus me


----------



## micbrew

yep im on board for hops as well ..
and reckon JB will be too ..currently on holidays ..lucky bastard

x2

micbrew


----------



## Mayor of Mildura

Wack patto and i down as well please yob if thats ok.


----------



## Camo6

I have some Hop Dealz Styrians. Unfortunately the pack is dated 2012 or thereabouts.

I better grab some too.


----------



## JB

micbrew said:


> yep im on board for hops as well ..
> and reckon JB will be too ..currently on holidays ..lucky bastard
> 
> x2
> 
> micbrew


Awesome thanks Mick, yep me too please Yob. If i get eaten by a croc beforehand donate mine to next on list.


----------



## Yob

Ive put aside 1 kilo of SG..

no dice on Hallertau MF though, will see if I can score some of that green next week


----------



## malt junkie

Bad news, gave my HX a look over today, leaks, issues, pump issues and no time to get sorted. Can someone else chip in with a HX?


----------



## TheWiggman

Done.


----------



## Yob

malt junkie said:


> Bad news, gave my HX a look over today, leaks, issues, pump issues and no time to get sorted. Can someone else chip in with a HX?


I can bring mine, but its VERY undersized for this and power will be aproblem, runs like a gun with an immersion element in it as well..

what power capacity will we have?

was a gennie going to make it there?


----------



## Yob

I'm still very unsure of what equipment we have and what we still need..


----------



## MartinOC

I can bring my HX & pump, but they'll need mounting somehow (I'll have a think about it).

I can also bring a gennie for extra power, but it doesn't have an awful lot of grunt.

I reckon we just need lots of pumps, hoses & camlock fittings to jerry-rig up whatever we need to do. We'll just make-do with what we have available.


----------



## Yob

Brewers Gold .7kg = $28 $25
Hallertau MF .7kg = $33 $30
Styrian G 1kg = $35 $30

Total cost hops - $85 / 24 = $3.55 each approx for single cube


----------



## TheWiggman

I'll round it up to $3.75 for you Yob, I'm feeling generous.

Right so we have 150kg grain in the recipe and we're looking at mash-in of 2.5l/kg? That's 375l of mash liquor, including grains we could probably get away with Idzy's two 275 litre eskies (one of which still requires a manifold).

Extrapolating from my system, we'll need shitloads of power if step mashing.
More technically, 1500W is ok for stepping 20 litres so for an equivalent ramp rate you're roughly looking at 28kW. That's a few power points, 12 to be precise pulling full current and smashing the power bill.

4 x heat exchangers (~2kW each?) will adequate to maintain mash temps but step mashing will be a bit of a doozey. At a minimum we're looking at 4 x 10A power points for the mash. If required I can legitimately borrow some fittings from work but I'm hoping we'll be able to assemble some manifolds on the day out of spare parts in our systems. We'd need -

2 x tees
4 x M/M nipples
A spare ball valve or two
Camlocks/fittings to suit your pump suction
Running 2 x pumps in parallel off each esky is workable I think, it will definitely get us up to mash temp and will fit in between WamerBeer's said palavering. Alternatively we could split in to three eskies and do an infusion to mash out using the HLT. I know what I prefer, something we could toss up on the day.

I apologise if I'm coming off as patronising, I haven't assisted in a case swap and am throwing my thoughts into the ring.


----------



## technobabble66

Yob said:


> I'm still very unsure of what equipment we have and what we still need..


Yeah, trying to get onto it.
I might need a PM or 2 from those that have prepared these recipes before. TBH, i have no idea how to estimate the gear we're gonna need, so i was hoping to find a list of what was used at the previous CS Brews - namely the 2015 Xmas in July (this is essentially going to be the same as the Wee Heavy effort).
So if anyone has the gear list (i assume it was a group PM at the time?), could they please PM a copy of it to me.

Otherwise, i'll have to guesstimate it myself :unsure:

What roughly have system losses been on these rigs? ~20%?
Is the rule of ~1L lost per kg of grain correct for MLT losses, or does the weight of the larger bulk of grain minimise this?

I'm estimating we need roughly: 462L into cubes, plus ~20-50L lost in bottom/trub, plus ~40-100L boil-off, plus ~150L grain absorption. Total of ~800L needs to be obtained after the mash & sparge.
All kettles need to be gas, as electricity will be at a premium for running the pumps (& HEX's) - does anyone have a gas HEX?

-------
Currently i'm assuming we need roughly:

1-2 grain mills (preferably w motor/drill)
3 large mashtuns, enough to fit 150kg grain, say 3x200L. (so i'm assuming 50kg per 200L MLT is ok)
2 pumps
Idzy's massive 500L kettle + burner (cheers, Adam!!)
at least 1x 200L kettle (could be smaller - needed for a side boil) + burner
preferably another 200L kettle (extra heating for HLT water, could also be smaller) + burner
2-4 HEX's to help keep MLT water at temp & mashout.
truckloads of hoses & cam locks (i'm assuming if everyone just brings some, this'll work out.
Several (large) gas bottles - no idea of the gas usage of the required burners. (plus water bath to prevent gas freezing)
------------------------

So first up, we need to determine what we need, then form it into a list, then see who can supply it.



EDIT: form idzy's post#164:
"Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:56 PM

Fellas, I have made a few calls, pulled a few favours, spent a few dollars and can confirm that I will be bringing the following gear:

Kettle (600 litres) - gas fired
White MLT (275 litres) - need to build a manifold
Blue MLT (275 litres)
White MLT (155 litres)
HLT (180 litres) - gas fired - need to build a stand
HEX (internal/external element) with 2x STC-1000 - 2x20amp req'd
Cheers,
Idzy"

So as wiggas just mentioned (snuck his post in before me, great minds think alike B) ), if idzy's white MLT is up & running, that'll probably have us sorted for MLT's; and if his HLT is also up & running, that leaves us with probably 1 other large kettle to source (for the side boil). 
... So basically, if Adam rocks up with his gear, we're 90% there. Yay for Idzy!!


----------



## technobabble66

FWIW, i believe we've avoided step mashing on previous efforts by an ingenious method of have 1 or more of the mash tuns at alternative mash temps. EG: if you wanted something like a 63/67/70°C for 20/60/20mins mash profile, you could do the biggest MLT at 67°C, and the smaller 2 at 63°C & 70°C. I believe we tried it at one of the gigs in '14 or '15 and it worked a treat. I vaguely recall Yob might've been involved in that one, so he might be able to clarify the details.
But that way, we can avoid any step mash shenanigans.


----------



## technobabble66

And fwiw, the recipe calls for a single mash step of 64.4°C (fkn °F conversion!), then mashout at 76°C; so we probably don't even need to stress about a complicated mash profile really.
If the HEX's can ramp us up to 76°C for 64-65°C then great, otherwise we could just mash at 64-5°C, drain it, then sparge with 78°C water.


----------



## technobabble66

I'll try to attach my 2 current spreadsheets of the recipe, both large scale & individual cube:

The large scale recipe: 
View attachment Westvleteren 12 clone, 1.1 (large scale).xls



The individual cube:
View attachment Westvleteren 12 clone, 1.2.xls


Note, the system details are not adjusted, other than for ~75% extraction, also the hops quantities will need to be adjusted for whatever the AA% is of the stuff Yob is supplying (Thanks again for obtaining those, Jesse!!)


----------



## malt junkie

Yob said:


> Brewers Gold .7kg = $28 $25
> Hallertau MF .7kg = $33 $30
> Styrian G 1kg = $35 $30
> 
> Total cost hops - $85 / 24 = $3.55 and a bottle of RIS each approx for single cube


FTFY


----------



## Yob

technobabble66 said:


> FWIW, i believe we've avoided step mashing on previous efforts by an ingenious method of have 1 or more of the mash tuns at alternative mash temps. EG: if you wanted something like a 63/67/70°C for 20/60/20mins mash profile, you could do the biggest MLT at 67°C, and the smaller 2 at 63°C & 70°C. I believe we tried it at one of the gigs in '14 or '15 and it worked a treat. I vaguely recall Yob might've been involved in that one, so he might be able to clarify the details.
> But that way, we can avoid any step mash shenanigans.


The divine thumb.. Yes we did exactly that, worked well and allowed us to seal our mt's with a little ots work first..


----------



## Curly79

View attachment 93116

Correct me if if wrong but I thought that 1 little HX and OTS element did the job for the winter case swap brew?


----------



## Curly79

Correct me if if wrong but I thought that 1 little HX and OTS element did the job for the winter case swap brew?


----------



## MartinOC

Stu,

Word to the wise - keep this KISS as possible (for your own sanity as much as anything else!). You're head-honcho on this one, but it doesn't need to be perfect, so don't strive (or stress) for it. We're having fun & making beer - that's all that really matters.

Single infusion for target @ 65C across all the MT's (kinda thick). Adjust & maintain with periodic infusions of boiling water & much stirrage-action (which we can do no problems), or maintain with HX's (if we have them available). If there's variation, just go with it - RDWHAHB. Mash-out with boiling water.

The rest is transfers, which is gear-dependent & we can swap & change things as-required.

We can work all this out over a few bevvies on the Friday night (as long as Adam doesn't drink too much & come up with 20 different ways of achieving the same end-point....  ).

The rest gets worked-out on the fly & it always ends well, so don't try to over-think it. You've got lots of experienced CS brains available to pick & we'll all help out.

All you have to do is make decisions & tell people what to do....... :chug:


----------



## technobabble66

MartinOC said:


> Stu,
> 
> Word to the wise - keep this KISS as possible (for your own sanity as much as anything else!). You're head-honcho on this one, but it doesn't need to be perfect, so don't strive (or stress) for it. We're having fun & making beer - that's all that really matters.
> 
> Single infusion for target @ 65C across all the MT's (kinda thick). Adjust & maintain with periodic infusions of boiling water & much stirrage-action (which we can do no problems), or maintain with HX's (if we have them available). If there's variation, just go with it - RDWHAHB. Mash-out with boiling water.
> ......


Yeah, trying to KISS as much as possible ... er :unsure: ... that sounds a bit more wrong than intended ... BUT, yes, trying not to complicate things too much.
However, i just wanted to make sure we're at least going to get the minimal amount of gear required to do the brewing - namely the basic numbers of 3 MLT's, 1 more kettle/HLT than Idzy's, a HEX or 2 - and to check if that WAS a reasonable guesstimate of requirements.
And to kinda open the discussion so all you other CS brains can chip in anything else that's relevant 

Yeah, i think mash-in to 65°C for a single step, drain & sparge at 78°C.

One thing i'm not 100% sure on is some of the sundries to the recipe - salts, yeast nutrient, anti-foaming agent, and whirlfloc.
Can you bring these, Martin? And if so, do you know how much roughly we need? If not, does anyone else have a guesstimate?

(EDIT: For the salts, i'm thinking, split evenly between ~400L Mash & 400L Sparge: roughly 60g CaCl2, 30g CaSO4, 20g MgSO4)


Actually, one other reason was to kinda document this process + setup into a findable thread in AHB - i searched high and low, and there's no mention of these simple details that i could find (and replicate for this brewing session, goddammit!!).
So for future organisers of these setups, i thought it'd be handy to have something they could stumble across that might provide an example of a cobbled-together, ~500L, Case Swap Brew Day set-up.


----------



## Mayor of Mildura

Something to bear in mind when scaling up recipes is hop utilisation. I notice your spreadsheet doesn't allow for this. I've had issues with bitterness going from a recipe for 20l to 120l so i assume going to 500l will also be an issue. Last year at Bandicoot Grant allowed for a 10% increase in his recipe and it seemed pretty spot on to me.


----------



## MartinOC

Yep, I can do all the salts/anti-foam/nutrient & Whirlfloc. Consider it done.


----------



## malt junkie

mayor of mildura said:


> Something to bear in mind when scaling up recipes is hop utilisation. I notice your spreadsheet doesn't allow for this. I've had issues with bitterness going from a recipe for 20l to 120l so i assume going to 500l will also be an issue. Last year at Bandicoot Grant allowed for a 10% increase in his recipe and it seemed pretty spot on to me.


I believe Hop utilisation is generally calculated at these brews by Yob's thumb measurement, invariably that'd come in at 10%+ increase


----------



## technobabble66

Fwiw, I'm thinking of doing either half or all of the Brewers Gold as FWH, so I'll adjust the hops accordingly after Yob learns the AA% of the hops batches he's ordered. 

I'm thinking of FWH as in my experience it seems to produce a more solid but smooth bittering with possibly a little (more) flavour coming through. But, as importantly, I've found it eliminates the time factor in utilization calculations (or rather, in my brew day), so it doesn't matter if it sits there for an extra 10, 20 or 40mins (which I believe is what happens with these massive brews, to result in that extra 10%). The magic of FWH!!


----------



## Mayor of Mildura

malt junkie said:


> I believe Hop utilisation is generally calculated at these brews by Yob's thumb measurement, invariably that'd come in at 10%+ increase


Does that mean that a few kilos of Simcoe at flame out is still on the cards?


----------



## technobabble66

^^ Only in Yob's cube [emoji12]


----------



## idzy

Curly79 said:


> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1479873635.546168.jpg
> Correct me if if wrong but I thought that 1 little HX and OTS element did the job for the winter case swap brew?


Yes



MartinOC said:


> Stu,
> 
> Word to the wise - keep this KISS as possible (for your own sanity as much as anything else!). You're head-honcho on this one, but it doesn't need to be perfect, so don't strive (or stress) for it. We're having fun & making beer - that's all that really matters.
> 
> Single infusion for target @ 65C across all the MT's (kinda thick). Adjust & maintain with periodic infusions of boiling water & much stirrage-action (which we can do no problems), or maintain with HX's (if we have them available). If there's variation, just go with it - RDWHAHB. Mash-out with boiling water.
> 
> The rest is transfers, which is gear-dependent & we can swap & change things as-required.
> 
> We can work all this out over a few bevvies on the Friday night (as long as Adam doesn't drink too much & come up with 20 different ways of achieving the same end-point....  ).
> 
> The rest gets worked-out on the fly & it always ends well, so don't try to over-think it. You've got lots of experienced CS brains available to pick & we'll all help out.
> 
> All you have to do is make decisions & tell people what to do....... :chug:


Yes



mayor of mildura said:


> Something to bear in mind when scaling up recipes is hop utilisation. I notice your spreadsheet doesn't allow for this. I've had issues with bitterness going from a recipe for 20l to 120l so i assume going to 500l will also be an issue. Last year at Bandicoot Grant allowed for a 10% increase in his recipe and it seemed pretty spot on to me.


Yes


----------



## idzy

The majority of the swaps I have attended, we have mashed in for each MLT at different times. From memory we have done a Protein Rest nearly always at 55c and then used HEX to ramp up to Sacc Rest. Once ramped, move to the next MLT, rinse and repeat.

This also heaps with sparging, as you can only do one at once. My preference is buckets for the sparge h34r:

EDIT: Forgot to add, once we did do 3 different temp mashes on 3 MLTs too. 1xBeta 2xAlpha, but I am sure we did a Protein Rest on them too.


----------



## technobabble66

Fairies nuts, Idzy. 
I've mainly arrived mid-mash, so i've normally missed the initial protein rest 

If you're fairly confident we'll have the capacity to achieve the ramping required to get it from 55 to 65, then 65 to 78 in reasonable time, then i'm happy to go with that - i generally prefer to do the 55 step in my own brewing. I guess we'll see what the HEX options are on the day.

And whatever gets the sparge water into the MLTs is fine by me


----------



## Mardoo

Define reasonable.


----------



## technobabble66

So we finish the brewing before sunset B)


----------



## MartinOC

technobabble66 said:


> And whatever gets the sparge water into the MLTs is fine by me


I had envisioned 3-4 grown men under the influence of excess alcohol dressed as garden Gnomes, using watering cans filled with 80C sparge water & gathered-around the MLT's in succession as the need arises. :blink: I can provide the pointy-hats & fake beards...?

It's a Kodak-moment if ever there was one....


----------



## malt junkie

If there's decent beer involved I can be gnome.


----------



## MartinOC

malt junkie said:


> If there's decent beer involved I can be gnome.


What about being an Oompa-Loompa?

"What do you get from a Case-swapping binge? A pain in the liver & an eyebrow that's singed....

You get no... You get no.... You get no Commercials......."etc..etc...

At this point, it's usually over to Grumpy Paul to come-up with inappropriate poetry/ode/limerick or something witty in iambic pentameter...


----------



## WarmerBeer

What's the go with cubes?

Are we assuming everybody will fill a 15 lt FWK type (that fit 17 lt when hot) or a 20 lt cube-shaped cube (holds 23 lt hot)?

It could make a major impact on your volume calculations.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Believe we've previously stuck with 20L and filled them to that. Anyone who brought a larger one typically went home with a rather beat up cube...


----------



## GrumpyPaul

MartinOC said:


> What about being an Oompa-Loompa?
> 
> "What do you get from a Case-swapping binge? A pain in the liver & an eyebrow that's singed....
> 
> You get no... You get no.... You get no Commercials......."etc..etc...
> 
> At this point, it's usually over to Grumpy Paul to come-up with inappropriate poetry/ode/limerick or something witty in iambic pentameter...


All my AHB poetry attempts are done on work time - so I'll give it a shot tomorrow. Why waste my evening when I can do it whilst getting paid for it.

And I have to admit my poetic efforts are usually just - google a poem or song lyric and change a few words to suit the swap/brew/drunked shenanagins theme.

This time I might re-work a classic - "Tie me kangaroo down sport".

It could become "Brew in Kangaroo Ground -swap"

Followed by several attempts to compare Cocko to Rolf Harris....

Stay tuned...


----------



## Mardoo

Cocko is only partially as hairy. No deal.


----------



## Nullnvoid

Don't muddy his name by comparing him to that waste of a human.......poor Rolf Harris 



Hahaha


----------



## malt junkie

oompa loompas, can sing and dance, gnomes just stand there.


----------



## technobabble66

Gnomes have facial hair. Oompah loompahs dont. 

Gnomes win. 


(OT: For some reason whenever I read wynumm's posts I picture him as a gnome)


----------



## GrumpyPaul

Here it is - your tax dollars at work.

[SIZE=12pt]There's an old Australian Homebrewer lying, dying. He gets himself up
onto one elbow and 'e turns to his mates, who are all gathered around and 'e
says:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Watch me grain mill crush, Russ
Watch me grain mill crush,
Its not quite right when you rush, Russ
So watch me grain mill crush[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Altogether now![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Swap at Kangaroo Ground, Yob
Swap at Kangaroo Ground
Cocko likes tying em down, sport
Vietnamese Rubber all round[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Martin’s imposing his rule, Curl,
Grainer just thinks he’s a tool
Ah, don't go acting the fool, Curl
Just keep me kegs ‘n’ brew cool[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Altogether now![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Swap at Kangaroo Ground, Yob
Swap at Kangaroo Ground
Cocko makes a strange sound, Technob
When pretty goats run all round[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Grumpy will always pull out, Mick
Cocko will leave it all in
He lives somewhere out on the track, Mick
Beware some boys never came back[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Altogether now![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Come to Kangaroo Ground, boys
come to Kangaroo Ground. [/SIZE]


----------



## Nullnvoid

I am more than happy for my tax dollars to go towards that!

That's just brilliant


----------



## DU99

I've been around the world
A couple of times or maybe more
I've seen the sights, I've had delights
On every foreign shore
But when my mates all ask me
The place that I adore
I tell them right away
Give me a home among the gumtrees
With lots of plum trees
A sheep or two, a k-kangaroo
A clothesline out the back
Verandah out the front
And an old rocking chair
You can see me in the shed
Cooking a Roast
Or Vegemite on toast
Just you and me,and a brew or two
And later on, we'll settle down
And go out on the porch
And watch the possums play
There's a Safeways up the corner
And a Woolies down the street
And a brand new place they've opened up


----------



## MartinOC

GrumpyPaul said:


> Here it is - your tax dollars at work.
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]There's an old Australian Homebrewer lying, dying. He gets himself up
> onto one elbow and 'e turns to his mates, who are all gathered around and 'e
> says:[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]Watch me grain mill crush, Russ
> Watch me grain mill crush,
> Its not quite right when you rush, Russ
> So watch me grain mill crush[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]Altogether now![/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]Swap at Kangaroo Ground, Yob
> Swap at Kangaroo Ground
> Cocko likes tying em down, sport
> Vietnamese Rubber all round[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]Martin’s imposing his rule, Curl,
> Grainer just thinks he’s a tool
> Ah, don't go acting the fool, Curl
> Just keep me kegs ‘n’ brew cool[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]Altogether now![/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]Swap at Kangaroo Ground, Yob
> Swap at Kangaroo Ground
> Cocko makes a strange sound, Technob
> When pretty goats run all round[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]Grumpy will always pull out, Mick
> Cocko will leave it all in
> He lives somewhere out on the track, Mick
> Beware some boys never came back[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]Altogether now![/SIZE]
> [SIZE=12pt]Come to Kangaroo Ground, boys
> come to Kangaroo Ground. [/SIZE]


SUCH a shame you're not attending, Paul. That deserves a rousing toast!

All good, except I reckon Grainer's a tool....


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Yob said:


> Brewers Gold .7kg = $28 $25
> Hallertau MF .7kg = $33 $30
> Styrian G 1kg = $35 $30
> 
> Total cost hops - $85 / 24 = $3.55 each approx for single cube


If there's enough I'd also love a hop pack for ze cube. 

My brew is coming down to the wire, cold crashing as we speak so will bottle one night this week. FG was 1.010 so should be just about bang on as planned :beer:


----------



## technobabble66

Hey Idzy (or anyone else who knows),
Do you remember an estimate for the boil off of your 600L kettle during a big brew?

Also, do you have a rough idea of the gas usage (and the gas usage of the rest of the kettles/HLTs?


----------



## idzy

technobabble66 said:


> Hey Idzy (or anyone else who knows),
> Do you remember an estimate for the boil off of your 600L kettle during a big brew?


Not sure. Doesn't really matter to be honest, we just adjust at the end. Too many variables, such as heat of day, heat of burner, etc.



technobabble66 said:


> Also, do you have a rough idea of the gas usage (and the gas usage of the rest of the kettles/HLTs?


Don't know about the last brew, as we had a big LPG bottle.

Previously I have brought along 2 9kg ones and usually go home with them mostly empty.


----------



## mofox1

mayor of mildura said:


> I've got some 150l pots, burner, pump. i can bring along if useful.


Chatting with Adam today, looks like these will be needed.. possibly just for HLTs (?)


----------



## Mayor of Mildura

mofox1 said:


> Chatting with Adam today, looks like these will be needed.. possibly just for HLTs (?)


No worries. I'll wack them in. I'll bring burner and gas bottle as well.


----------



## Mardoo

MoM always comes through!


----------



## Curly79

Do you fellas want my 45kg gas bottle for the weekend. It costs about $50 to fill so maybe give me $20.Last swap used about a third/half Your call?
If you want it and Martin doesn't have room I might be able to drop it off during the week. Let me know. Cheers


----------



## technobabble66

Just sent a PM for an Equipment list.
If anyone who wants to be part of it didn't get it, let me know and i'll attach you onto it.
Basically all gear needs to be present on the Friday night.

Curly79, yep, *definitely* looking forward to using your Big Mutha gas bottle! Chat to Martin as to how to get it to Chez Cock.
Last swap, when you say ~1/2 was used, was that all the gas we went through? Or were other bottles used as well?



EDIT: and yeah, MoM, as per the PM just sent, your pots might fill the main outstanding gap that's left, so please do bring them :icon_cheers:


----------



## Curly79

technobabble66 said:


> Just sent a PM for an Equipment list.
> If anyone who wants to be part of it didn't get it, let me know and i'll attach you onto it.
> Basically all gear needs to be present on the Friday night.
> 
> Curly79, yep, *definitely* looking forward to using your Big Mutha gas bottle! Chat to Martin as to how to get it to Chez Cock.
> Last swap, when you say ~1/2 was used, was that all the gas we went through? Or were other bottles used as well?
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: and yeah, MoM, as per the PM just sent, your pots might fill the main outstanding gap that's left, so please do bring them :icon_cheers:


It was only used for the Boil mate. You could use it for whatever you like if you have the fittings. I'll chuck in whatever I have fittings wise


----------



## technobabble66

Great, thanks.
Appreciated!


----------



## idzy

idzy said:


> Fellas, I have made a few calls, pulled a few favours, spent a few dollars and can confirm that I will be bringing the following gear:
> 
> Kettle (600 litres) - gas fired
> White MLT (275 litres) - need to build a manifold manifold built
> Blue MLT (275 litres)
> White MLT (155 litres)
> HLT (180 litres) - gas fired - need to build a stand - SS fittings needed SS fittings all sorted
> HEX (internal/external element) with 2x STC-1000 - 2x20amp req'd
> Cheers,
> Idzy


Quick update on this. 

Now looks like:

Kettle (600 litres) - gas fired
White MLT (275 litres)
Blue MLT (275 litres)
White MLT (155 litres)
HLT (180 litres) - need burner and to build a stand
HEX (internal/external element) with 2x STC-1000 - 2x20amp req'd
All good apart from stand and burner for the HLT. My cold cut saw needs a new blade, so I will have to try and source this later in the week. We should probably have a backup burner. I believe someone mentioned something?

I will try and jerry something up either way.


----------



## technobabble66

Excellent work, Idzy!
I think Mayor of Mildy has a backup, but hopefully your burner & stand can make it by friday 
Thanks for the update.


----------



## MartinOC

I believe Curly79 has a stand that would take a 180L pot. I'll chat to him about it & the big gas bottle at the same time.


----------



## technobabble66

Perfect.
Thanks, Martin!


----------



## technobabble66

Posted this in the 2016 WAYB thread, but here it is for later reference:

Brewed yesterday at the 2016 Vic Xmas Case Swap:

*KangaCockoren 12*
(a Westy 12 clone, named* after being brewed at Cocko's place in Kangaroo Ground, The host of the Case Swap) 

Vol=460L
OG=1.091 (1.076 w/o the D2)
FG=1.015
IBU=32.8
EBC=82.8 (12.8 w/o the D2)
alc=10.3
(resulting efficiency of system was 73%)

100kg (56.3%) Dingemanns Pilsner
50kg (28.2%) Dingemanns Pale
3.5kg (2.0%)Melanoiden

24kg (13.5%) D2 Candi Syrup (to be added mid-fermentation)

500g Brewer's Gold (3.6%) @FWH
150g Magnum (12%) @FWH
500g Brewer's Gold @ 60mins
680g each of Hallertau Mittelfrau (2.6%) & Styrians (2.6%) @20mins (into 21 cubes).

Ideally fermented with WLP-530

Mash vol = ~500L (inc grain vol, guessed as ~70L "dry equivalent", so ~400-430L
Sparge vol = 250L

Only took ~12 hours to brew :blink: :lol:



* name yet to be confirmed by consensus


----------



## TheWiggman

I'd be keen to hear what the actual OG is with a hydrometer. Measured 1.076 'corrected' with my refractometer, but I reckon it could be 1.071. I don't think it measures linearly. We shall see.
I'll be brewing mine with D2 and a 3787 cake from a patersbier, it'll be interesting to see how this compares to 530 which is allegedly the same strain. I'm going ~22°C 'cause I love those Belgian esters.
Top effort all, I'm considering converting a kid's room to a pool room so this beer has a righteous place to mature.


----------



## MartinOC

Correction to the ingredients list - Sub. Weyermann Pale malt for the Dingemans.


----------



## technobabble66

Ah yes - forgot we had to sub. 
Thanks, Martin.

And I forgot to add, we drew another ~100L off the second runnings to do a lower gravity Partigyle brew. Resulted in ~85L into cubes. Not sure of gravity, somewhere between 1.040-50?


----------



## TheWiggman

Oh word of warning - 3787/530 goes off like a wheat yeast so with a 1.076 beer it'll necessitate some blowoff consideration. In the case of 3787, it settles all creamy-like when finished and doesn't really drop unless chilled.


----------



## technobabble66

Did anyone check, or rather, remember the OG of the 2nd runnings when it went into the cubes?

I vaguely recall 1.045, but that could be me making stuff up


----------



## technobabble66

Oh, and fwiw, for anyone who got more than the 1kg of D2, i *think* the corrected amount of D2 to add to the Westy 12 clone is 1.14kg, *assuming* the OG of the wort out of the cube is actually 1.076. 
That gravity is yet to be confirmed and may be a bit off, which would alter that D2 estimation.
... the joys of variables in these massive brewing sessions on big beers :unsure: :lol:


If you only have the 1kg, don't stress, it'll still get you 95% of the way to a clone, and it'll still be a damn tasty Dark Strong!


----------



## MartinOC

technobabble66 said:


> Did anyone check, or rather, remember the OG of the 2nd runnings when it went into the cubes?
> 
> I vaguely recall 1.045, but that could be me making stuff up


I took a refract. reading with one that was floating about & it read 1048, but after I cleaned it & looked again with water on the plate, it was reading a few points BELOW 1.000!?!?!

The conclusion is that it was somewhere between 1045 & 1048 (Pre-boil gravity was 1038).


----------



## technobabble66

Fantastic. Thanks, Martin!

Any ideas what to do with the low grav partigyle?
Just do a basic Saison as a "starter"? If so, would you bother adding a little sugar or Amber syrup to it?

For the record, I got a 21L cube of Westy12 wort, a little 10L extra cube of the Westy clone wort, plus a 21L cube of the partigyle wort.
I was thinking of, along with the main cube going towards the proper clone (10%), the 10L would be diluted out a little and have 500g Amber syrup & 100g steeped Spec B added to it to make up a Dubbel (~6%)
So i was thinking to use the low grav partigyle to make a Saison (~5%), maybe with 100-200g sugar (maybe slightly caramelised to orange) or Amber syrup.
Basically, i would run the WLP-530 on the Saison, then the Dubbel, and finally the Westy12.

Other options included making the 10L cube into a small batch of either a stronger Dubbel, a Golden Strong, or a Tripel. The problem being they might be too high in alcohol and so leave the yeast in poor health for when they get to do the third batch, the Westy 12. It'd be possible to split the yeast cake of the Saison, but that's a bit more faffing around - not sure if it's worth it! Though i must admit i'm kinda curious as to how the same wort but with Amber Syrup added would turn out compared to the intended Westy12 clone with D2.
A final option is to keep it for much later, when i intend to do a run of Aussie ales - save the 10L cube for a Golden Strong Aussie!

Any thoughts?


----------



## Mardoo

I myself would go the "saison" idea and work the clone on part or all of the cake (probably part). The yeast will be in great health and raring to go.


----------



## TheWiggman

Curious about the saison (pronounced "say-sun" in my ocker internal voice) idea with WLP530, you'd really need the right yeast to make a saison else it will simply be a lighter Belgian ale. I definitely wouldn't go to a dubbel then the Westy, the yeast won't be treated properly. Personally I would go -

Nuke the utter shit out of your brewery Stu
Partigyle -

10.5l Belgian Ale with WLP530, ~1l starter
10.5 Saison using whatever yeast
Southycockeren '16 -

21l pitched onto Belgian ale yeast cake
10l with amber syrup and a big pitch of a similar Belgian yeast, like WLP550
That way you'll have appropriate pitches and really tell the difference between all the yeasts.


----------



## malt junkie

TheWiggman said:


> Curious about the saison (pronounced "say-sun" in my ocker internal voice) idea with WLP530, you'd really need the right yeast to make a saison else it will simply be a lighter Belgian ale. I definitely wouldn't go to a dubbel then the Westy, the yeast won't be treated properly. Personally I would go -
> 
> Nuke the utter shit out of your brewery Stu
> Partigyle -
> 
> 10.5l Belgian Ale with WLP530, ~1l starter
> 10.5 Saison using whatever yeast
> Southycockeren '16 -
> 
> 21l pitched onto Belgian ale yeast cake
> 10l with amber syrup and a big pitch of a similar Belgian yeast, like WLP550
> That way you'll have appropriate pitches and really tell the difference between all the yeasts.


I like this idea.

I too have a cube of the partigyle may throw some WLP545 at it with some amber for a nice double.

WLP530 should be in the post today or tomorrow.

My stir plate is going to be busy


----------



## technobabble66

Thanks v much for your suggestions, Mardoo, Wiggas & MJ!

I was really hoping to avoid buying another yeast, as the only Belgian strain i currently have is WLP530.
However, i'm fairly keen to knock out a Saison for summer, and it might be good to use that one on the possible Dubbel.
OTOH, that'll mean lots of small FV batches & faffing around (Boooo!)

Don't worry Leigh, currently boiling sod perch & water to pour into the FVs.
I thought you like sour beers!! :lol:


----------



## technobabble66

Ok. **** it. Getting WLP-566 from the local Homemakeit in Rez (sorry Cleverbrewing  - i wanted to pitch it today! (& save on postage)).
Goddammit, more cash being spent. But i'm keen for a summer Saison, and this looks to be the best for the result i'm after.

So what i might try to do is, as Wiggas outlined:

a) 21L Partigyle cube (~1.045) split into 2:
10.5L with WLP530, as a "starter" for the Westy 12 clone
10.5L with WLP566, as a Summer Saison, and buggerit, i'll probably use it as a "starter" for the Dubbel (/Red Saison - given it's a Saison yeast).

B) 21L Westy12 cube made into Westy12 (duh!), with added D2.

c) 10L Westy12 cube made into a Dubbel, with added Amber syrup & steeped Spec B


Edit: went to correct the emoticon from the "b + )" combo, but it seems kinda appropriate so its been left. A bit like a Freudian slip :lol:


----------



## MartinOC

malt junkie said:


> WLP530 should be in the post today or tomorrow.
> 
> My stir plate is going to be busy


Today - 20 minutes from order receipt to despatch...


----------



## malt junkie

MartinOC said:


> Today - 20 minutes from order receipt to despatch...


Love ya work mate!! Thanks :beerbang:

Guess I know what I'll be spinning up first then, time to christen that shiny conical from Droid, plenty of head space, though I''ll still put a blow off on.


----------



## malt junkie

oopps phone playing up


----------



## AJ80

So I mentioned to a few at the swap that I have a Westy XII clone fermenting at the moment. Took my first gravity reading tonight and it's torn down from 1.090 to 1.006 in just 16 days. Fermented with the Gigayeast Belgian ale blend. For those curious, my ferment and candi syrup additions were as follows. 

- full cake pitch
- oxygenate at pitching and again at 12 hours
- pitched at 18c and raised to 22c @ 1 degree per day
- 3 separate syrup additions (each 450g or maybe mililitres...) on 27/11, 30/11 & 4/12. 

Am surprised just how smooth this is given it is a 16 day old 11% beer. No hot fusals at all just rich dark fruits and a hit of spice from the yeast. My first time using candi syrup and (not that I have a baseline to compare with) the staggered additions seemed to work.


----------



## Mardoo

So those additions are day 6, day 9 and day 13?


----------



## WarmerBeer

AJ80 said:


> So I mentioned to a few at the swap that I have a Westy XII clone fermenting at the moment. Took my first gravity reading tonight and it's torn down from 1.090 to 1.006 in just 16 days. Fermented with the Gigayeast Belgian ale blend. For those curious, my ferment and candi syrup additions were as follows.
> 
> - full cake pitch
> - oxygenate at pitching and again at 12 hours
> - pitched at 18c and raised to 22c @ 1 degree per day
> - 3 separate syrup additions (each 450g or maybe mililitres...) on 27/11, 30/11 & 4/12.
> 
> Am surprised just how smooth this is given it is a 16 day old 11% beer. No hot fusals at all just rich dark fruits and a hit of spice from the yeast. My first time using candi syrup and (not that I have a baseline to compare with) the staggered additions seemed to work.


Where, oh where, is the bookmark button, so I can find this post again in 3 months when I finally pitch my cube?


----------



## AJ80

Mardoo said:


> So those additions are day 6, day 9 and day 13?


That's a much better way of putting it  

Was aiming to do the third addition on day 12, but the swap got in the road.


----------



## MartinOC

Question: Did ALL the cubes of the main batch get dosed with Yob's "care package" additions (except Mardoo's) on filling?


----------



## JB

Hi Martin. Yep, think there was one other cube already with hops but all others were hopped.


----------



## Nullnvoid

Yeah that was mine. Mardoo and I cubed ours before we left.


----------



## technobabble66

Which made it 3 - rusty, mardoo & mardoo's buddy (Cam?). 
All others had hops put in them from Yob 's care package. 

... So hopefully he received 16x $5 from all who used his hops, plus MJ & I used a 2nd lot on our Partigyle cubes. (So hopefully Jesse ended up with ~$90 in cash on the day (for ~3.5kg of hops!!)).


----------



## MartinOC

Whilst mowing the grass today (read: Beating it into submission with a borrowed ride-on mower [Thanks jbourke!!]), I had a thought that it might be a good idea to debrief what worked & what didn't so we can learn from it & do better next time.

Here's my thoughts/input:

Cocko's Rack-It racking worked really well for the gear we used.

The orientation with 2 x MLT's on the bottom & 2 x hot liquor "holding tanks" (courtesy of the Mildura boys) up-top worked, so we could have sparge water feeding by gravity, rather than having to use pumps.

The "Cold-Start-Ramp" idea to use a couple of H/X's & pumps programmed to come-on at 4.30am & have everything ready to go by the time we all surfaced on Saturday didn't work. They were just too under-powered to do the job for the size of mashes we did. If we were to use this idea again, probably best to dough-in on the Friday night as soon as we've got everything set up & get them going straight away.

Two decoctions didn't work to get the mashes up to where we wanted them. That was a definite failure.

If we want to get quick steps, what we DID have was the ability to heat a LOT of water in order to do hot/boiling infusions (underlet). We had plenty of burners & pots available, but didn't use them properly. We could then use the H/X's just for maintenance between steps.

Someone ('can't remember who) was a bit precious about not stirring the mash. Dunno why...? Disturbing the grain bed? That would be fixed easily with a bit of recirculation. 

We had plenty of facility to move hot water from place to place, so I suggest we use that next time (ie. extra pumps & "holding-tanks").

There was still plenty of sugars left in the grains after the main boiler was full (seems to be a given with the gear we've used so far), so I suggest we plan for another parti-gyle brew in future.

That's my 2c. Any other observations?


----------



## Yob

as a side, my second runnings cube blew apart in the cellar, cracked the lid and fermented out half of itself, smells like arse in my barrel room <_<

Setup was fantastic as far the racking goes, so tight and simple. Tanks.. we lack large volumes of at temp liquor, most of the other issues evaporate if we had 800L of at temp volume..

march pumps in series may work/help? dangerous?

we just couldnt move the volume from top to bottom quickly enough.. anywhere near enough.. we have reached the event horizon with our current pumps HEX/s...


----------



## Bridges

So you need something like this
Bit exxy and in the states but will move 50 GPM at a head of 45 feet.
Should do nicely.
Just need one to fall of the back of a plane so to speak.


----------



## TheWiggman

I think the setup overall had the capability to brew well but lacked power, literally. If the pumps are slow and the HEx isn't boiling then the limitation is the element power, not the pump. That was the biggest hindrance from the electrical side of things. If we had more power then absolutely would need bigger pumps. In fact considering the amount of water we had to move if would be a lot quicker and safer if we had 2 larger pumps as per Bridges. I chatted to Yob about the pumps in series and that would work too for the HExs (as pressure was the issue on the HERM-IT coil, though irrelevant if we weren't to use a bigger element or two). Two pumps in parallel would effectively double flow for transfer. 
A single HERMS for maintaining temp and an infusion mash would probably work best with the gear we had, but with such a high gravity it would make for a very thick mash. My preference at the start was a single infusion mash (boring though) but grain handling would become a hurdle because you would want it all in there at once. 
I was a bit precious about stirring Martin because on my system it results in a stuck mash almost every time. I've never used the esky-tube false bottom before so maybe this is much less of a risk. Wort was flying out if the tap when we checked so it made shit-all difference plus proved we has scope for more pumping capacity. 
Alternative: multiple pumps and HERMS systems in parallel from tees out of the drain. This would allow more power easily and with thought put into extension cord placement wouldn't trip circuit boards.


----------



## idzy

At some point during the Saturday I saw 500+ litres of wort flowing into cubes. Mission accomplished 

Do's - what we usually do (+ buckets)
Don'ts - timers and cold mashes


----------



## Mardoo

My 2c - not having been on this brew but having done a few on Adam's system - is nothing new. The flow and transfer rate kills us, time wise at least. Great wort is produced, no doubt. 1/2" tubing on Chuggers and March 809/815's adds at least 2 hours to the day, perhaps 4, maybe even 6. 

Yob uses the slow ramp method at home and produces some fine beers with it. Maybe the Friday night mash-in with HEX's set and running is the go, as suggested. We'll needs a Night's Watch though  . Heating capacity for infusions isn't a problem, as long as we have the heating and storage volume 

Infusion with recirculation is probably the go, with a different mash tun running the temp of each step, as done previously. But then the transfer and flow rate thing rears its head again. 

There are workaround solutions for most of the issues, except for the one of flow and transfer rate. 

Maybe this is where we start talking about kicking some cash and build time in towards solving this on Adam's system.


----------



## mofox1

Night's Watch eh Mardoo? Winter swap is coming...

HLT wise, I mentioned on my system I preheat the HLT on the night prior to brew day. Usually set to just sub boiling and turn it off when I go to bed. When in winter I'll cover precious with a doona.

Brew day morning I wake up to 65°C strike water. Too easy.


----------



## TheWiggman

I'll quote this smart arse -



TheWiggman said:


> Extrapolating from my system, we'll need shitloads of power if step mashing.
> More technically, 1500W is ok for stepping 20 litres so for an equivalent ramp rate you're roughly looking at 28kW. That's a few power points, 12 to be precise pulling full current and smashing the power bill.
> 
> 4 x heat exchangers (~2kW each?) will adequate to maintain mash temps but step mashing will be a bit of a doozey. At a minimum we're looking at 4 x 10A power points for the mash. If required I can legitimately borrow some fittings from work but I'm hoping we'll be able to assemble some manifolds on the day out of spare parts in our systems. We'd need -


Issue is energy, not flow. 2400W of electrical heating power is going to take hours to heat up 375 litres of water and grain no matter which way you look at it. 4 options as I see it for step mashing -

Gas-fired HERMS with angry burners and lots of flow
Parallel HERMS with multiple small elements
Single HERMS (like the pot that was there) with a few elements in it
Bigger HERMS element/s, necessitating a large GPO
Option 1 requires constant monitoring but is workable, option 2 is simple as long as people bring their gear, option 3 would be handy as long as the house had the power capability, option 4 is best but not workable at most homes.


----------



## idzy

This particular config has worked on the blue esky for a few swaps now with not too much dramas. Mainly because I use 2x2400w elements. Wiggman's HEX only had 2200w, which did mean ramping was slow, so it would be good to fix this.

The problem is that most places will only have 10amp outlets. So we need a system similar to mine, 2 elements at 2400w. That way we can use it anywhere with 2 x 10amp outlets.

Ideally what I would like to do is replace the 2x STC-1000s with 2x PIDs with SSDs, similar to Wiggmans and have both connected to the one probe on the HEX output. Seems like it would be the best way to do it. Problem is design, cost, and time to build it. If anyone has the inclination to help with design and time to build, I will work out a way to fund it. PM me.

EDIT: I note that Kinglake and Kangaroo Ground both had power issues at site. Something we should look to resolve with generators and or location selection. Power output is absolutely mandatory. No point having 3 phase pumps and HEXs with nothing to run them.


----------



## TheWiggman

I swear home owners get their houses wired up without the consideration of large brewing systems later down the track. Madness.


----------



## WarmerBeer

I've got 36 Amps wired into my brewing shed. 

Unfortunately, the physical size of my brewing shed means I can host no more than 3 brewers at any case swap.


----------



## Mayor of Mildura

I don't have 3 phase. But I'm happy to have a fire. Could direct fire or heat up some rocks steinbier style. Could be an issue in the esky's though. Might have to line them with foil.


----------



## idzy

mayor of mildura said:


> I don't have 3 phase. But I'm happy to have a fire. Could direct fire or heat up some rocks steinbier style. Could be an issue in the esky's though. Might have to line them with foil.


I reckon even with our current setup, if we dough in at 60c, we will be sweet.


----------



## Nullnvoid

mayor of mildura said:


> I don't have 3 phase.


You have 6 months . 

Kickstarter!


----------



## mofox1

Yob said:


> as a side, my second runnings cube blew apart in the cellar, cracked the lid and fermented out half of itself, smells like arse in my barrel room <_<


Erk. Any idea if it blew 'cos it started to grow, or just decided it was in an opportune place to fail (in which case be thankful it wasn't in the back of the subi)?


----------



## Mardoo

Oh my god, back when I used to do catering I had 25L of prawn ceviche spill in the back of my Subi. At the end of a 2-hour drive. Arriving AT the event. On a 44C day. 25L of ceviche. Locked car for 10 hot hours. Fragrant drive home. Took 2 years to get rid of the smell, even after I ripped out all the carpet and upholstery it spilled on. 

As we were.


----------



## Mardoo

TheWiggman said:


> I'll quote this smart arse -
> 
> 
> Issue is energy, not flow. 2400W of electrical heating power is going to take hours to heat up 375 litres of water and grain no matter which way you look at it.


It's both actually. I may have confused the issue by saying "flow". I'm not referring to the HEX's. The ability to transfer liquid at a reasonable rate is one of the major issues. Check out Spike Brewing's literature on the difference in flow rate between 1/2" and 5/8" tube. (Sorry, that's the only solid reference I can think of off the top of my head.)

As Adam referred to, we've run 2 smaller HEX's, one for each tun, each with 2 OTS elements in them and managed to ramp in not-unreasonable times, not ideal ones either. So, yes, power is absolutely an issue that needs to be considered.

**** I love this conversation.


----------



## droid

is the system running 1/2" plumbing?


----------



## Mardoo

Yep


----------



## idzy

The larger march pump has 1" input and 1/2" output. Claims 17 vs 6, so approximately 2.5 times the flow with mostly the same plumbing, just need to change the MLT fittings


----------



## TheWiggman

Forgive my apparent pedantic-ness Mardoo as there is no cruel intent, but flow only becomes an issue when the system can't draw the power away from the heat exchanger. There would certainly be a difference between different tube sizes with a centrifugal pump for a system this size and I'm not disputing that. But all you need is _enough_ flow, not lots of flow.
If the element is running 100% of the time and it's heating the liquor, then that energy is going into the liquor and thus back into the esky. Flow is only an issue if -

There's a big temp differential across the HEx (i.e. you've hit mash temp at the outlet but the temp in the esky is a lot lower).
Water in the HEx vessel continues to heat until it boils (i.e. not enough flow to get the heat out)
If you go past my keyboard battles on this forum in the past I've always advocated high flow - this holds true, but in this application won't make a difference unless you come across the above problems. Energy in = energy out - losses.

Also part of the problem with my controller is that it is a PID that is tuned for a far smaller system. This slowed the ramp time SHITLOADS. I didn't realise until part way through the sacc rest and then cranked it about 8°C above setpoint. Apologies, I was pretty shitty about that. I'm planning on an upgrade soon...


----------



## Mardoo

Mardoo said:


> It's both actually. I may have confused the issue by saying "flow". I'm not referring to the HEX's. The ability to transfer liquid at a reasonable rate is one of the major issues. Check out Spike Brewing's literature on the difference in flow rate between 1/2" and 5/8" tube. (Sorry, that's the only solid reference I can think of off the top of my head.)


----------



## micbrew

Great question Martin !

from the food perspective

were elso can you get
fed food all weekend , sample a range of beers approx 15 on tap , talk shite , tag unsuspective sleepers h34r: , collect a cube , have a great time
and all for about $60 ...undervalued in my opinion

I reckon if you attend and or swap , you have to chip in for the food
this will help persuade people to attend and not have so many pull out , at the last minute
leaving finances a little worse for wear. apologies in advance for anyone with legitimate reasons! on not attending ..sometimes life happens , I get it .

also I think all funds need to paid well in advance so we can pay , suppliers , arrange all food , grains additives and sundries
one price , one payment ...done & dusted

was even thinking we could hold a raffle to fund some equipment for these big brews ,moving forward

to cater for this number , we need about 15 kg for lunch & dinner
this does not include friday night

because Friday night is becoming the norm , more thought needs to go into feeding the masses on the night

we have purchased a plastic tub , so we can build up food utensils & miscellaneous stuff
so we don't need to keep buying every swap

other stuff we must have

russells spit
tables
marque
dedicated gas bottle for bbq ...breakfast
power for spit
bottled water was a hit
tomato sauce
foil
foil trays for meat
fly spray
charcoal / heat beads
knife /fork / plates , serviettes
paper towel ,
dunny paper
coffee , tea , sugar
salad , bread rolls


just my 2 cents , hope this helps for future case swaps yada yada :beerbang:



cheers mick


----------



## droid

shit I didn't even think about that ^ I'm happy to slide some $ for the food as I would have been catered for - sorry did not even think about it


----------



## droid

Idzy or brewers of the case swap rig - could we get a simple drawing or two put up (maybe in a dedicated Vic case-swap brew-house upgrade thread) of the current set-up and even the different configs that you've run with?

I'm sure if all eyes can see how it runs that ideas will be thrown out there and the best foot put forward - personally I love trying to work out this sort of stuff

if the plumbing is larger there is a greater surface area of wort that can be heated - I wonder about the difference between a 100ltr HEX that's gas fired with 1/2" vs 5/8" coil inside and have also considered an instantaneous hot water system in my own set-up which isn't outrageou$

point is that I and I'm sure many others would like to throw ideas into the mix which can be considered/discarded/altered...whatever - it all helps eh


----------



## micbrew

Hey Droid .. All good 
We came in on budget ... 

And moving forward I'm sure we could help fund some equipment for future brews 

But throws open other issues as well .. Storage / ownership / etc etc 

Mick


----------



## malt junkie

Pump issues will be a continual pain in the bum until people wake up and start using pumps made for 50 hz.


----------



## GrumpyPaul

If swap brews get any bigger form a co-op and become gypsy brewers


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Can we scrounge together a series of old dishwasher pumps?


----------



## TheWiggman

For a non-gas system that can be adapted to any home I reckon something like the following could be made up -





If we had a larger pump and hoses this would be handy. Idea is -

Each SSR is connected to a different 240V socket
Install multiple corded kettle elements in the HEx
PID controls temp to _both_ eskies so brew remains consistent
I've pictured the flow split between both eskies and it's possible one vessel may get more flow than the other; true, but with a common outlet/suction the pressure should balance between the two.

SSRs are cheap ($3.20 off eBay delivered), kettle elements are as well and a pot could be made up with some scrapped fittings I can scavenge off work. Some main panel sockets like this are tidy but the costs would soon add up. Small $3 extension leads and some cable glands are a cheap alternative.
Controller-wise I'm happy to put something together as I'm keen on playing around with some Arduino stuff for my own system. It can be had dirt-cheap and is completely customisable.


----------



## technobabble66

Without trying to address all points made in the heating-mash conundrum, my 2c would be that it's *both* the flow rate of the pumps plus the rate/quantity of heating by the HEX/elements that needs addressing.
Both seem to be equally important - technically the overall HEX/element capacity may be more of an obvious constraint, but the flow rate of the pumps/hoses also need to ideally be sufficient to disperse the heat energy more rapidly through those massive MLT eskys. The dribble we were getting from them wasn't helping the slow ramping, that's for sure! One way you could look at it is the additional influence of the heat losses from the top of the eskys - the slower the rate, the more heat is lost out the top before it flows into the grain bed. Failing that, it just takes a freakin long time for the entire grain bed to reach equilibrium.
So basically, it'd be worthwhile improving both the heat exchange system plus the pumping flow rate.

Just out of interest, is it worth considering a dual-flow heat exchange system. What i mean is, could we get a (series of) plate chiller(s) and run the mash through one way, then have a large volume of heated water running the other way?
The reason for suggesting that is it means we can run gas systems to ramp the mash. The convenient electricity option which most of us use on our own systems seems like a major choke-point in the future as not many will have sufficient amperage to run the several large elements Wiggas et al are calculating we need. Whereas we can just keep setting up more pots with water and split feeds to supply as many kJ's as needed.
I'm assuming this system would do something like run the heating water a few degrees above the targeted temp, then we just pump both the wort & the heating fluid through as fast as possible.
Apologies if this is already covered and discarded - just spit-balling during a break at work!
----------------


Hey, FWIW, i thought the decoctions worked fine. The first 1 wasn't heated up to boiling and so did little (and neither were rested at sacch temps :unsure: ), but the 2nd one got us up to ~62°C in one step, up from ~56°C. In hindsight, we could've _planned_ to do a couple of decoctions to achieve the rapid ramping we were seeking. The relatively small volumes of 50-70L is reasonably doable.
So for next time, a 50L decoction (done properly - i.e.: rest at 66°C for 30mins, then boiled) should ramp one of those big eskys (with the remaining ~200L mash in it) from 55°C to ~63°C in one hit. It's actually a pretty easy step if we've got the space and the extra couple of 100L pots to do it.

Maybe it's worth looking at a completely different strategy: using decoctions to hit the main mash steps we want.
Do it old skool German-style!
Still use some HEXs like we did at Cocko's to refine/ramp an extra degree or 2 and to maintain the temps, but otherwise use gas+pots+decoctions to rapidly jump to higher temps.

-------------------

Agree, that the "Rack-it"(?) shelving setup Cocko provided was fantastic - being able to neatly set up the MLTs in one spot and then have the HLT vessels above to store the heated sparge water was great.

And maybe skip the grain hydration from now on.


----------



## droid

have you guys gravity fed from one mash-tun through to the other or do they need to be heated and pumped independently, would that be like doing a faux re-iterated mash on the second mash tun?

could you have the HEX between the two, so outlet from first mash into HEX then into 2nd mash

soz for not being more on the ball with what you're doing - the winter swap in Kinglake had me bamboozled as to what was happening


----------



## technobabble66

Don't think we've done it, but i think it was considered and discarded as we thought it wasn't really going to add anything beneficial (e.g.: no efficiencies gained) and simply created a larger and *longer* mashing system - it's still a matter of getting kJs as quickly as possible into as much of the _total_ grain bed as possible.
The MLTs in series (rather than the parallel we ran this one) didn't necessarily seem any better or worse at heating the mash, it just seemed easier to set up everything in parallel (esp so we just ran a single HEX on each MLT) so we went with that.


----------



## idzy

malt junkie said:


> Pump issues will be a continual pain in the bum until people wake up and start using pumps made for 50 hz.


Would have thought that most people would have 50hz pumps?


----------



## idzy

TheWiggman said:


> I've pictured the flow split between both eskies and it's possible one vessel may get more flow than the other; true, but with a common outlet/suction the pressure should balance between the two.


Float valve, aka blichmann autosparge?


----------



## malt junkie

idzy said:


> Would have thought that most people would have 50hz pumps?


Both march and chugger were designed to run @ 3500 rpm @ 60hz. Now they will run @50hz but they are no longer spinning @ 3500 rpm more like 2850 rpm so flow rates and head are compromised by around 20%. We're better off buying from the UK where their power is the same as here and therefore the brewing pumps are designed to run optimally @ 50hz.
Ask moad how well American pumps run under load. The numbers people always quote are the higher flow rates @60hz. Head is dramatically cut @50hz making flow rates a joke for decent size HX coil lengths.
I have checked out a few different options, MDM pumps UK seem to have some good kit but no prices listed, which scares me a little, but was something I was going to chase up in the new year.


----------



## VP Brewing

Just bottled mine. After being pitched onto a Wyeast 3739 Flanders Golden Ale yeast cake and 3x500g (minus what wouldn't come out of the container) additions of dark candy syrup (2 were D2 and the other was some dark I've had for a while and thought it may as well go in) it tapped out at 1.006. I gave it 5 days at FG to finish then a few days at 1°C. 
Tastes amazing already and can't wait to try it in a couple of months. 

17 Champagne bottles
6 PET longnecks
19 Stubbies


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

1.006??? :O Epic. Did you measure the OG again? Guessing at that ALC% it wouldn't feel thin in the mouth at all being so low on FG?


----------



## VP Brewing

Yeah it's a nice yeast. Same one I used in my tripel I brewed for the swap. It just quietly chugs away. I think the biggest the krausen got was 40mm. 
Didn't measure OG and not sure exactly how my candy syrup went in either. Got most of the D2 we got from the swap out of the containers but the third lot was is a foil bag and left a bit more behind so maybe 1.3kg all up. It will be over 11% anyways.


----------



## mofox1

TheWiggman said:


> Oh word of warning - 3787/530 goes off like a wheat yeast so with a 1.076 beer it'll necessitate some blowoff consideration. In the case of 3787, it settles all creamy-like when finished and doesn't really drop unless chilled.


Wiggs, took your advice. Although instead of the blowoff I used my 60L fermenter.

1/2 a cake from a previous batch, revived 10hrs in the westy wort starting around 12pm y'day. Pitched 10pm. It's now down to 1.040(ish - hard to tell, hydro sample fermenting away crazily), ~10L krausen and airlock going off like diarrhoea after bad tacos.

So freakin' hard to keep the temps down on this one (esp since the inside of the shed is seeing temps in the low 40s). Half dozen frozen PET bottles in the fridge compartment to help with the temp, but still fermenting away at 20 - 21 instead of 18 - 19. Blahg.

Will candy sugar bomb it tomorrow.


----------



## TheWiggman

WON'T SOMEONE MENTION THE OG?!


----------



## malt junkie

Ran the second runnings beer with WLP545, added 500g amber candy chewed down to 1005. Weirdly hydro samples taste like banana bread just not as sweet. Cold crashing now, not sure if I'll bottle half or just keg the lot.


----------



## mofox1

TheWiggman said:


> WON'T SOMEONE MENTION THE OG?!


Nope. Dinna measure it.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

No-a-body-canameasureit.


----------



## technobabble66

Jesse measured the OG:
View attachment 94346


----------



## technobabble66

View attachment 94345

Dubbel post.
I blame Wiggas.


----------



## technobabble66




----------



## mofox1

Six days and mine's at 1.007... Wowsers.

Hydro sample also numbed the tongue... this will have to sit under the house a few seasons methinks.


----------



## technobabble66

Kegged the WLP-566 Saison from half a cube of the Partigyle batch. (seems pretty darn tasty!)

Drained the extra 10L cube of the Westy12 i snaffled onto the yeast cake & discovered some slimy stuff in amongst the wort. Wort seems sort of OK, but maybe a slight sulfury solvent aroma - after research might be Mercaptan, from a Megasphaera cerevisiae infection in the cube.
Un Faaaaarkin Believable!!!!
Particularly as i'm currently nuking my other FV after the other half of the Partigyle got an Aceto/Lacto infection in it.
So ******* annoyed right now!!!!!
(I don't even care if i'm using too many exclamation marks)

Might as well ferment this one for a little bit and see if it is an infection (99% sure it is) or maybe I'm wrong (99% sure i'm not).
FAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRKKKKKK!!!!
:angry: :angry2:


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Jeez, feel for you Stu! Was the cleanliness of the cube in question to start? Or should we who have not yet pitched this brew be concerned??


----------



## technobabble66

Thanks, Deej.

Cube might've been questionable.

I think, vaguely from memory, one of my 2 10Ls had a whisker of mold in the lid - maybe the one i grabbed in the heat of the moment (& the darkness) was the dodgy one. I'm not really sure, TBH. All the regular cubes should be fine, i believe/hope. 

Got home a little while ago - the Saison yeast has taken off like a rocket. Krausen within 3hrs. Not sure if that makes me more annoyed or not. 
FWIW, i realised it initially smelt similar to old yeast stocks of mine - a kinda solventy/estery, sulfury, yeasty aroma. Don't think it's a good thing.

Either way, i'm so damn annoyed i could punch a puppy.
So. *******. Sick. Of. Infections.


----------



## technobabble66

Update on the mini side-batch of Dubbel that i pitched a few days ago (i know you're all keen to hear what's happened to it  )
Strangely enough, after 4 days there's no sign of anything nasty or off in the hydro samples. 
The WLP-566 has munched it's way through the wort, nice big 2" krausen on top. Dropped from 1.045 to 1.012 in 3 days (first 2 at 19°C, 3rd day at 22°C), 
So i threw in 500g Amber Syrup & 90g D2 Syrup yesterday, bumping it back up to 1.022, and held at 22°C.
Today down to 1.010, and because it was too light in colour, threw another 185g D2 into it. Hydro sample looks a bit better now with a mid-to-dark amber hue.
Absolutely no indication in the flavour or aroma of anything bad from the wort/cube.

So basically, no idea what's happened, but i'm happy to shrug my shoulders and quietly line up some bottles to fill B)


----------



## VP Brewing

Opened a stubbie after 3 and a half weeks in the bottle. Probably needs another 3 to be fully carbed. 
Tastes very sweet considering how low the FG was but this will be amazing in a few months when everything balances out a bit more. 
Nice dark red colour.


----------



## Mardoo

Hey guys, regarding the previous discussion about equipment, I was at Keg King the other day and they now sell a 3/4" inlet/outlet pump. Looks like their other pumps, just bigger. Polysulfone head. They only just got it in. Didn't ask about SS head availability.


----------



## malt junkie

Mardoo said:


> Hey guys, regarding the previous discussion about equipment, I was at Keg King the other day and they now sell a 3/4" inlet/outlet pump. Looks like their other pumps, just bigger. Polysulfone head. They only just got it in. Didn't ask about SS head availability.


Wonder which pump it is. Could be anything from an MP20 through to MP70, It'd be great if they came out with a SS head on a higher flow pump, the MP15 (their current version with SS head) lacks the get up and go for larger batch sizes.


----------



## Mardoo

Not sure. It's not listed yet. It's pretty much twice the size of the current one.


----------



## malt junkie

Mardoo said:


> Not sure. It's not listed yet. It's pretty much twice the size of the current one.


Price?


----------



## Mardoo

$179


----------



## TheWiggman

FINALLY got hold of some 3787 fresh off the boat. I made a 2.8l starter in a 3l flask and that was a mistake - it went completely bezerk and I had to clean the mess up about 4 times (hated seeing that creamy yeast go straight down the drain would have been at least 30ml). 
Pitched today. Drum roll please...
1.069
I'm doing one with some D2. It'll be interesting to see if this lends a difference. Geez it tasted ballsy in the hydro sample though, bold and almost burnt, bitter as all hell.


----------



## TheWiggman

Attenuated like a mo'fo', got to 1.005. One of the finest smelling brews in a fermenter, nay one of the finest smelling brews. I got heaps of that D2 splendour and it had quite a dank burnt biscuit character which I'd attribute to the reduction. Taste-wise, oh man. I sucked down some froth from the hose used to bulk prime and didn't get any harsh bitterness, it was flavour country. 
To be honest I was of the opinion that these swap day brews would be a bit of a hack job. I'm pretty pedantic about process and control etc with my system and thought this would be a fun attempt at knocking up a beer. Wrong, this has all the calling cards of a competition beer and I can't wait to try the finished product. Good job lads.


----------



## bullsneck

Out of interest, are you staggering the Candi additions or adding them in a bulk lot? Also, when? I assume fairly close to FG.

Edit - grammar


----------



## technobabble66

Not sure what everyone is actually doing but in theory it's better to add the ~1kg of syrup in two 500g additions split a few days apart. 
So after ~70-80% of the SG points are chewed through I'd add the first lot, and when the SG drops back down to the same level I'd add the second lot. And then maybe start raising the temp slightly at this (2nd) point to help the yeast finish it all off. 
Conveniently, Martin split our D2 into ~500g tubs, so it should be easy for us to split it into 2 additions.


----------



## TheWiggman

Did you actually do this Stu? I bought mine locally and tipped it all in at 1.015 or thereabouts. I have read the practice is to introduce it over a few days but I had a single 1kg pouch so would prefer not to open the fermenter more than once.


----------



## technobabble66

Nope, not done yet. I've had a few infection issues so most of summer has been taken up trying to re-sanitize everything [emoji30]
Will start the starter batch for the WLP-530 cake v soon!
Then intend to do as I described above.


----------



## malt junkie

I tasted the second runnings beer from the swap last night. I'd brewed it with WLP-545, and half a kilo of Amber. I don't think it has peaked just yet but initial tasting was superb, this may well be comp worthy in a few months.

Mike


----------



## technobabble66

TheWiggman said:


> ... Drum roll please...
> 1.069


Same.
OG=1.069.

Pitched today onto a (slightly small) WLP-530 yeast cake. Pitched at 23-24°C, slowly letting it drop to 19°C over the next 12-24hrs. hopefully it'll cope ok with that and not go to sleep.
Just to annoy MHB et al, i used a drop of olive oil and some H2O2 along with some vigorous stirring/frothing to hopefully optimise the oxygenation/preparation of the yeasties (given i don't have O2).

Smell and taste of the hydro sample was fantastic. Bit sad the OG is a little low, but i'm hoping the few grav points short won't be a biggie.
Fingers crossed it'll stay infection-free


----------



## TheWiggman

Don't forget it's got 1kg to go of that sweet sweet Candi, still makes for a strong drop thanks to the insanely long rest around 60°C during the 'ramp'. 
Crossing my fingers it doesn't end up as a Westy Barnyard.


----------



## technobabble66

Yeah, it's meant to hit 1.076 from the straight grain. I actually couldn't remember if it was 1.079 or 1.069, but pretty sure it was '69 (, dude) given yours was also. 
Krausen was formed & 1" thick within 3 hrs. Dropped it down to 20*C overnight and it still managed to fill the 8L headspace and had pushed on the glad wrap some time during the night. Came back to it an hour ago and it was back to pushing on the glad wrap and starting to blow through. 
So I've dropped it to 19*c to see if that'll subdue it a little. 
******* yeast. 
SG down to 1.054 already. That's 15 points in ~15 hrs after pitching. Not bad!
Must be the H2O2 [emoji185]


----------



## malt junkie

Question! Looking at bottling later this week. Thought crossed my mind, could candy syrup be used for carbonation. If so, has anyone done this? And at what rate? Beerperiment??


----------



## technobabble66

And it won't be too barnyard. My dodgy funnel had ~18% syrup in it (this has ~13.5%) and seems totes fine.


----------



## technobabble66

malt junkie said:


> Question! Looking at bottling later this week. Thought crossed my mind, could candy syrup be used for carbonation. If so, has anyone done this? And at what rate? Beerperiment??


Can definitely do. 
I think CandiSyrup inc have information on the website for this. 

FG?


----------



## Mardoo

Yes, I've carbed a few times with candi syrup, and yes, as TB66 noted, the Candisyrup Inc website gives guidelines.

I'd add, just as a side-note, as it's not so applicable to this beer, that using sugars with flavour for bottle-conditioning seems to extend the time needed for bottle-conditioning. This is my opinion based on my experience, but after about 20 batches worth of experimentation, it really seems the flavours need more conditioning time to integrate than the same beer bottles with dex.


----------



## malt junkie

CG(current gravity)1010, gave it a a second hit of fresh yeast Friday just gone was @1014 I'll give it a rouse tomorrow see if it moves any further hoping to bottle Saturday.


----------



## Yob

malt junkie said:


> CG(current gravity)1010, gave it a a second hit of fresh yeast Friday just gone was @1014 I'll give it a rouse tomorrow see if it moves any further hoping to bottle Saturday.


Just put in one of those big shiny silver bottles.. Job done


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## malt junkie

Yob said:


> Just put in one of those big shiny silver bottles.. Job done


Not a bad idea, and I do need to finish that keezer collar, I also hate bottling. :huh: ........hmmmm

Ot Yob still no Nelson?


----------



## Yob

Nope, sorry been too busy to ask or even split anything, hypothetically


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## technobabble66

technobabble66 said:


> And it won't be too barnyard. My dodgy *funnel* had ~18% syrup in it (this has ~13.5%) and seems totes fine.


funnel = dubbel
just noticed this error


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## technobabble66

Update time!

Discovered (i.e.: read the last bit of the recipe properly) that the correct temp for fermentation is more like 25°C rather than the 18-19°C i originally thought - and needed to maintain to contain the overflowing krausen
So ~2/3rds of the way through the fermentation i started ramping the temp a degree per day up to ~24°C yesterday.
Also did the syrup additions in 2 lots. The first was ~2/3rds through the expected fermentation, SG ~1.030. The 2nd was today, when the SG~1.018.
I increased the syrup addition from 1.14kg total to 1.5kg total (so 2x 750g additions), to compensate for what seems to be a slightly low OG (1.069 down from the expected 1.076) - should add an extra 4 points.

Ideally i would've added the 2 additions a little earlier, say ~40% remaining attenuation rather than 30% for the first one; and the 2nd addition a day earlier to be more like 30% remaining attenuation. These additions were delayed as i wasn't sure if the first one would cause another krause explosion. In hindsight, this wouldn't have been a problem.
Also, when i repeat this i'd start the fermentation ~4°C higher and maintain that, as it's expected to improve the flavour/aroma profile. I guess i'll wait and see as to whether my lower fermentation temps has any significant impact.

Finally, on further research, i also realised that the D2 we're using is a bit lighter in colour compared to the CSI D-180 that the recipe is designed for. I'm inclined to think (/hope!) that this won't have a large detrimental effect on the flavour/aroma, largely because the D2 is from one of the main candy syrup suppliers in Belgium so it's of the highest quality & i'm assuming it'll have all the depth and complexity that we want. The only real difference is our clone might be a little lighter in colour. Also, assuming Westvleteren use D2 or something like it, i can only guess they use a little Spec B or more D2 to achieve the colour of the original Westy 12. Another option to compensate might be to use a little extra D2 for priming - it's effectivelyan extra 100-200g into the recipe.

Hydro sample smelling and tasting fantastic!


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Nice work techno, thanks for the update. Key information for those slackers in the group (I'm lookin` at myself in the mirror).

The good news for most of us with this being potentially different to the original Westy 12 is we've never tried one, seen one or will likely have one in the near future haha! I however, do pray every night that one will end up in the International Beer Collector monthly 6-pack.

I shall adapt your advise for higher fermentation temp and had planned on using 2x D2 containers for ease also. For adding did you dilute with 50% water and boiled for 15 mins, cooled then added/stirred as per instructions on the website?


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## technobabble66

No worries! Yeah, it's not like we have a yardstick to compare with, hey?!



DJ_L3ThAL said:


> For adding did you dilute with 50% water and boiled for 15 mins, cooled then added/stirred as per instructions on the website?


Yep, did that. Well, i probably added a little less water and boiled for 5-10 mins.


... And if you get one through the IBC monthly pack, i'll probably be visiting shortly afterwards


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## DJ_L3ThAL

You wouldn't be able to make it over fast enough!!! :chug:


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## technobabble66

Update:
one day later, down to SG=1.014, while at 25°C.
Pretty impressive - down 10 points in 1 day, even when it's already at ~9-9.5% alc.

Tastes even better today!
Easily the best Westy 12 i've ever had*
(holy cow, there's a bit of an alcohol kick to it!)




Sample size of 1


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## technobabble66

another 2 days have passed, now down to SG=1.010, temp held at ~26°C.

Hydro sample tastes a little like someone's put beer in my scotch. Sort of in a good way, but the alcohol is definitely not getting hidden in this one. Nice and smooth though. It does make me wonder what this would be like with some oak chips or a month in a barrel .... but i think i'll leave that to RIS-Man. :lol:


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## technobabble66

OK, 5 days later, still sitting at SG=1.010, temp held at 26°C for the first 3 days. Decided to bottle soon, so i've allowed it to free fall down to 18°C, which it hit last night.
I think i'll try for 2.4 vols CO2, and use the D2 for priming.

FWIW, i estimated the conversion of grams of Dex required to Prime to grams of Candi Syrup, to be a factor of 1.2727 to multiply the estimated Dex amount.

What volsCO2 have everyone else primed to?

I generally err on the side of underpriming rather than over, and i'm mindful of my FG being ~5 points higher than that reported by Wiggdude.


PS: the extra few days in the FV after hitting FG seems to have cleaned it up very well. Quite a dramatic change, actually - a nice plummy/cherry element starting to come through, i think. Tasting very very promising!


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## TheWiggman

Sounds like that infection streak has come to an end and what better time?
Strange you would have a different FG. Others have reported 1.006 and 7, I could have possibly under-read the FG like I have a habit of over-reading the OG. Yours is in the ballpark though so if it tastes clean, I reckon bottle it. 1.010 is a good finish, I can't imagine this is a beer you want to be dry.


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## manticle

FYI TB - starting such a big beer at 25 rather than 18 then letting rise later, probably would have made that alc hit a lot rougher. Happy accident on your part.


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## malt junkie

Tasted a 330ml bottle, now after 10 days in bottle yes I knew it was still way young and a little under on carbonation. 
Findings were probably on par with where the beer is at, though still produced a tinny tight head, huge raisin and plumb notes quite overwhelming really, hops are firmly there. Like I said come August (comp season) this will be awesome! 

Next bottle will be July, I expect this will be fairly well carbed by then and some of those big flavour notes to have melded and smoothed.

Thanks TB and all your brewday minions, another amazing brew gents!


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## technobabble66

manticle said:


> FYI TB - starting such a big beer at 25 rather than 18 then letting rise later, probably would have made that alc hit a lot rougher. Happy accident on your part.


Yeah, I was sure the best idea (& advice) was to start this at 18 for a few days then raise it, as it seems to be the best option generally for bigger Belgians. So I was a bit surprised when I reread the csi recipe & hbt (?) clone thread that they suggested to start so high. Made me concerned that I'd be missing out on some awesomeness. 
A teeny sample on bottling suggests otherwise. And yes, it's definitely a clean smooth alcoholic element, not a rough barnyard experience. So maybe a result of starting at 18 (?)


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## technobabble66

malt junkie said:


> Tasted a 330ml bottle, now after 10 days in bottle yes I knew it was still way young and a little under on carbonation....


Lol, bottles a beer to age for 6-12 months, tries it after 10 days [emoji1]
Exactly what I'll be doing [emoji6]
Feck it, I've got 67 stubbies, so testing one each month isn't a biggie. 
Great early tasting notes, & as you said, seems v promising for how it will age. 

As for the thanks, it's appreciated(!), but I recall you were doing a fair bit of work on the day [emoji6] along with many others, so definitely a group effort shared by all. It's simply (very!) pleasing to see all of the hard work sloooooowly coming together to produce what hopefully will be a great & memorable beer for all of us, by all of us. 
[emoji482][emoji41]


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## technobabble66

TheWiggman said:


> Sounds like that infection streak has come to an end and what better time?
> Strange you would have a different FG. Others have reported 1.006 and 7, I could have possibly under-read the FG like I have a habit of over-reading the OG. Yours is in the ballpark though so if it tastes clean, I reckon bottle it. 1.010 is a good finish, I can't imagine this is a beer you want to be dry.


Yep. Halle ******* lujah!!! Hosanna in the highest!!
4 beers in now and no sign of infection. Much relieved!

And yes, I'm concerned I'm 5-6 points over where others have finished at. I hoping my brilliant skillz at minimizing yeast health [emoji17] has enabled it to *complete* its attenuation at the lower end of its range, have a tiny bit more oomph to do the secondary fermentation to prime it, then conk out. 
I've had an issue with bigger beers or lower attenuating yeasts (eg: 1469) gradually over carbing over long time periods, so we'll see how it goes. I'd guess the first 12 months will be fine but it might get interesting after that. 
I went with bottling immediately as the last big beer I did that under attenuated, the wee heavy done with WLP-028, I left sit for 3-4 weeks to try to knock off the last 3-4 points. It didn't attenuate any further then got an infection starting at the top. 
So given the Westy12 dropped fairly quickly and consistently to 1.010 then flatlined, & it's a point or 2 under the estimated FG, I'm preferring/hoping to believe it's hit its FG. 

And therefore my awesome brewing skillz have successfully overcome adversity & you bozos who have foolishly optimized your yeast health have cocked it up. [emoji15][emoji1]
Shit brewing skillz FTW!!
... Or I now have 67 glass grenades sitting in my spare room. [emoji51]

So yeah, in summary, an oxygen set is going to be the next brewery upgrade [emoji57]


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## VP Brewing

This is mine bottled 2-1-17. Man this is taking ages to carb up but it's getting there. Just used carb drops which have never failed me. Last try was 4 weeks ago when baby VP arrived and it has improved heaps in carb and smoothness since then.

Edit: might add this was after a bit of a swirl to get some foam happening.


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## TheWiggman

Shit man, had no idea. Congratulations, can't wait for the midyear swap to see how much you've matured and to hear all your spew and sleep deprivation stories.


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## VP Brewing

Cheers wiggman. Warm spew running down your back at 3 in the morning is one of life's pleasures. Little dude is going well.


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## mofox1

Ha! Check back in 4 months... you ain't going to know your own name. 'though truth be told I had a horrible nightmare of a first born, bless his wee black heart.


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## technobabble66

10 days in the bottle, so of course I had to try a bottle. MJ can't have all the fun!


Eddie betts in the background. Another Dark Strong champion (though not Belgian) [emoji1]

Similarly to MJ, already shaping up after a tiny bit of time in the bottle. Definitely looking forward to trying it at 3 months, let alone 6 & 12. 
Nice subtle caramel element and a slight candy-like element that I find most Belgian strongs seem to have; I assume both of these will develop significantly over time. A noticeable earthy element I've found in other beers bittered with Magnum, so I'm guessing it's from that, and hopefully it'll mellow out a little more into the background to get the right balance (pretty sure it will). 

Very promising! [emoji4]


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## DJ_L3ThAL

^^ Stu's version tasted magnificent the other night.

I've now pitched mine onto a WLP530 yeast cake, O2 the wort and it's sitting at 19.5C (fridge will bring down to 19C). I measured the OG and got 1.073. Tasted the wort also and wow, huge bitterness that melds lovely with the sugaz. Can't wait for this one to be in the bottles!!!


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## DJ_L3ThAL

So this bad boy fired up to continuously bubbling the blow off water within 8 hrs!! Checked this morning and it was violently bubbling the blow off, had no time to do anything before work so I think I'm set for coming home to a bit of a mess [emoji51]


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## TheWiggman

Yeast cake repitches are the worst, just spent half the morning cleaning the fridge after pitching on a 1728 cake with a 1.066 stout. That's AFTER cleaning up a huge mess with the airlock then setting up a blowoff tube into a bottle. The bottle overflowed and overall I've lost 1.5 litres in blowoff. Awesome way to spend a day off work. So I'm backing you're in trouble DJ.


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## WarmerBeer

So are people generally following the Candisyrup.com recipe and pitching this at 25 C? Then letting it self ramp?

A bunch of other recipes on the interwebs (yeah, yeah...) are claiming to pitch at 18 and ramp up to 25 over the course of a couple of days.

Have got some fermenter space, so feeling it is nigh time to get it going on.


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## technobabble66

WB, yeah that's what i got kinda confused during my fermentation.
I'd read all those other interwebs recipes (the huge one on HBT by Bottoms Up is basically the only one i'd bother with, any other decent one is generally quoting that post), and it's why i initially let mine drop to 19-20°C (from pitching at 25°C) for the first 3-4 days, before i realised the CSI recipe says to start at 25°C. Also, i think Bottoms Up recommends holding at 18°C for a while before ramping, whereas CSI holds at 25°C, then drop to ~14°C to finish off (which is a pretty bizarre ferm temp schedule).
OTOH, the CSI recipe is supposedly tested and refined over a few/lots of iterations; so i'd put a lot of faith in that, and is the main reason i went with that recipe for this Case Swap. 

Mine is far too young in the bottle to really tell, so i'm largely just referencing theory that i'm guessing you're already familiar with: the lower the temp, the more subtle the esters/phenolics. But that result varies enormously from strain to strain, so the theory doesn't provide a great guide for the ideal ferm temp schedule for this. Mine is definitely quite subtle on the aromatics, so i'd guess it might've been better to ferment mine a little higher. I'm also not 100% sure how these aromatics develop over time. I suspect these type of aromatics (Belgian esters, i believe) actually improve and shine more over time, as opposed to fading over time like other (Belgian) phenolics or hops oils/aromatics. 
One other detail: even at 18°C, my WLP-530 was _juuuuuust_ pushing on the glad wrap, so filled ~8L headspace. For this, i was grateful i'd dropped it to 18°C.


I'd suggest to see if you can find any particular detail on the effect of high & low ferm temps on the ester profile of the WLP-530 (i assume you're using this?) as an added guide.
Failing that, i'd possibly go for ~21-22°C for the first day or 3 of active fermentation (partly depends on how fast it attenuates, so maybe ~25-40% chewed through), then let it rise a degree or so each day thereafter. Just a suggestion though


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## TheWiggman

With all this banter I decided to crack open bottle #1 tonight:



Plenty of carb, exactly where I wanted it with a spritzy held-holding liveliness. Luscious. Is this 13%? Tastes smooth, not silky yet but absolutely drinkable and if I cracked this at a craft brewery I'd be raving. It's got a bit of 3787 on the nose and taste but gets lost in an unmistakable 'smoke' character. Wow is it dry, I noticed it then recalled the low FG. Probably the only letdown. Oh mama in a year's time this will be the real deal. This is what home brewing is all about.


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## MartinOC

TheWiggman said:


> This is what home brewing is all about.


Yo mamma!

Put some (a lot!) away & remember it slowly as it evolves, matures, ages & then passes over the next 3-10 years.

Keep it cool (literally & figuratively) whilst sampling..


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## WarmerBeer

technobabble66 said:


> Mine is far too young in the bottle to really tell, so i'm largely just referencing theory that i'm guessing you're already familiar with: the lower the temp, the more subtle the esters/phenolics. But that result varies enormously from strain to strain, so the theory doesn't provide a great guide for the ideal ferm temp schedule for this. Mine is definitely quite subtle on the aromatics, so i'd guess it might've been better to ferment mine a little higher. I'm also not 100% sure how these aromatics develop over time. I suspect these type of aromatics (Belgian esters, i believe) actually improve and shine more over time, as opposed to fading over time like other (Belgian) phenolics or hops oils/aromatics.
> One other detail: even at 18°C, my WLP-530 was _juuuuuust_ pushing on the glad wrap, so filled ~8L headspace. For this, i was grateful i'd dropped it to 18°C.
> 
> 
> I'd suggest to see if you can find any particular detail on the effect of high & low ferm temps on the ester profile of the WLP-530 (i assume you're using this?) as an added guide.
> Failing that, i'd possibly go for ~21-22°C for the first day or 3 of active fermentation (partly depends on how fast it attenuates, so maybe ~25-40% chewed through), then let it rise a degree or so each day thereafter. Just a suggestion though


Good to know, TB.

I think I might wait a little longer. The SS brew buckets are fantastic for cleanup, but there aint a lot of headspace when pitching a whole 23lt cube.

In the meantime, I might do a little more research on the fermentation temperature schedules, and see how it throws esters.

I actually _do_ have a control bottle of real Westy XII that I will be able to compare it to. However, I'm planning on saving it for my next "round-numbered" birthday.


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## manticle

My one and only experience of wxii is that it was flavoursome but very smooth and very delicate.

Will check bb date tomorrow if I remember.


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## MartinOC

WarmerBeer said:


> I actually _do_ have a control bottle of real Westy XII that I will be able to compare it to. However, I'm planning on saving it for my next "round-numbered" birthday.


PARTAY at WB's place next Saturday night :chug:

Bring streamers & your best singing voice :blink:


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## manticle

I expect one bottle to go a long way.







WB's guard dogs are the best kind of doberman.


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## Mardoo

MartinOC said:


> PARTAY at WB's place next Saturday night :chug:
> 
> Bring pasties & your best g-string :blink:


FTFY


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## manticle

I'll be back tomorrow night


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Day #4, Temp rose to ~21C from 19C but has stabilised and still active fermentation although it has slowed right down. Will slowly increase 0.3-0.5C per day until I hit 24C from now on.

Brew gods looking down on me the other night as I escaped an awful mess (although a good 1L of yeast spewed out of the blow off). Have replaced with a fresh flask and will now harvest the remainder of yeast I get out. Hydro sample from last night which has turned into a fast ferment test (had to dump out of chronical dump valve due to the sample valve being blocked by cube hops - will blast some CO2 in reverse direction tonight to hopefully unblock), which is now at 1.018. Currently boiling ~1.5kg of dark candi syrup for 15 mins before cooling and dumping into FV tonight. Think I am doing this just in time (plan was last night but didn't check gravity because of above reasons/stress/time lost).

Will keep chugging along! Excited! This is fermenting so fast.


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## mofox1

Good work on keeping the temp down... I think my fridge was running constantly to keep it below 23.


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## Ferg

Just a heads up for anyone in Melbourne who wants to try the real thing - Winedown in Carnegie have it along with the 8 & Blonde but be prepared to hand over $40 for the privilege. No affiliation etc.

Also, just for the drool factor, my brothers (who live in Ireland) recently went to Belgium for a beer holiday and came back with this among others:


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## MartinOC

Is porn actually allowed on AHB?


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Wlp530 really did slow down and surprisingly didn't speed up when I added the candi sugar, just chugged away at same rate for another week. 

Bottled this on the weekend and the yeast sediment looks like some of the candi syrup has worked its way in, didn't smell like it and it could have just "stained" the yeast perhaps? What are the thoughts on whether this mixes in from the yeast activity or not? I followed instruction to boil in 1/2 syrup volume of water for 15mins then cool and tipped into fermenter, I didn't stir.


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## technobabble66

Hard to tell, given the beer looks a similar color to the D2. 
I did the same but gently stirred after adding. Definitely none left in the cake at the end. Even if you didn't stir, it should still been ok for the yeast to do its thing. 

Just got to wait 12 months now...


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## WarmerBeer

Well, I finally pulled my lazy finger out, de-cubed my wort, and pitched the slurry from a 5 lt starter of WLP 530. It started fermenting strongly within 12 hours.

I got a fair whiff of what to me smelled of "decomposed vegetable matter" left in the cube afterwards. I'm now beginning to wonder if it's possible that all that vegetal hop matter had started to rot, even without access to oxygen?

The cube had not swelled at all, and other than that, everything looked fine. 

Is it possible for hops to have rotted a little during the 6 months I've left them in the cube, even though they're effectively sealed?


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## technobabble66

Nope. 
Unless there's an infection, in which case: Yes. 

Any sign of infection? Like goopiness etc? 
Sitting in the cube for so long might impart a little more vegetal note (which mainly should come out during fermentation). Otherwise the Dr Rudi used in bittering might've imparted a slightly "different" note to a regular Belgian (though I think that's stretching it a little). 

Fwiw, my second cube (a 10L cube filled at the end) had a weird goopiness to it and what seemed like some protein filaments/film in it. Smelled a bit odd. Maybe could be described as a slightly rotting vegetable. Also no sign of swelling. 
However, I'd assumed it was because I'd grabbed the wrong cube out of my boot in the cubing frenzy, and the goop was there *before* I filled it (ie: the hot wort killed whatever it was and did the usual self sterilizing thing). Worth noting that the fermentation showed no further sign of infection & the dubbel I converted this to seems ~fine 5 months later.


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## micbrew

well started to ferment my westy ...spun up some WLP 500 Monastery yeast . divided and pitched @19
let sit for a week , then cooked up a tub of candy ..may have pushed it to far .. a little burnt perhaps
anyhooo this morning currently sitting at 1.020 looking rather clean ....I have added more candy

q1 question should up the temperature or keep steady as I said sitting @ 1.020


thanks Micbrew


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## technobabble66

I'd up the temp a degree or 2. Should have minimal flavour impact now, but may add a few extra esters. Probably no biggie either way once it's chewed through the first 1/2 of its attenuation.
To help it finish off the last few points, though, I'd probably increase the temp a little.


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## micbrew

thanks Stu upped temp to 21.5 ...
hopping it doesn't take on that slighty burnt note ..proof will be in the bottle hey

will try and bring a bottle to the swap


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## technobabble66

No wukkas! From my version, it takes at least 6 months to start hitting its straps. Our clone is not bad until then, just not anything great. Mine is ~5months in the bottle and i think it's *just* starting to balance/mellow out. Admittedly mine is with the WLP-530, so different yeasts would produce different results. I'm definitely bringing a few to the swap, so it'll be mighty interesting to compare everyone's versions.


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## micbrew

hey stu
seems mine has staled at 1.020 ..should I re pitch at this point ..dam I wanted to bottle it this weekend
temp was sitting sitting on 21.5


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## technobabble66

Bugger, bugger, bugger!!!
1.020 is definitely a bit too high. Mine finished at 1.010-11, but should've finished ~1.013. So i assume it's definitely tasting a bit too sweet? If you could get it down to, say, 1.015 that should be fine.
How long has it sat at 1.020?

Have you tried rousing the yeast with a bit of stirring, etc?
If not, i'd try that. Sterilize your spoon carefully, of course, but it should be easy and safe. Hopefully that might wake it up and knock off a few more points. (Also, just giving it an extra week if it's only ~2 weeks in).

The next step is a bit/lot trickier, if the rousing fails. 
Re-pitching yeast is a bit more complicated than normal, as this beer not just has some alcohol in it to start with (that'll shock the yeast), but a LOT of alcohol in it. 
You could try just tipping in a packet of something, like Belle Saison or Notto, but there's a good chance it'll either die or just take a really long time to ferment it out (as there's only initially a small amount of yeast in a little packet). 
Ideally you need to quickly whip up a starter of whatever yeast you choose (so you could also use a liquid for this if you wanted - basically pick something that will handle high alcohol content). This is to both build up numbers, but get the yeast used to an environment with alcohol in it. 
Ideally you might do 2 starters, one to get it going and build up some numbers, the second to build up the alcohol a bit further. But that's probably too much faffing around (& time lost!). 
I'm thinking you might be able to do you starter, then add some more DME+water (boiled & cooled) to that starter once it's gotten through the first lot of sugarz to crank up the booze level and condition the yeast that way. Obviously the 2nd addition would need to be concentrated otherwise you simply increase the volume without increasing the alc%. 

If that all sounds too much, simply do a single starter and toss it in and hope for the best. 
Obviously once the starter is fermented out, you'd chill and decant off most of the liquid, then stir and toss in the yeasty fraction.

How's all that sound?


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## micbrew

ok ...gone for the sterilized spoon option first ..stirred vigorously for 5 minutes ,will check gravity Friday morning ,heres hoping


----------



## technobabble66

Stir well but don't oxygenate the beer!!! Bad things will happen (maybe)


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Worst case Mick use two packs of Belle Saison and rehydrate it. I don't think that beast would die and should finish the batch off!


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## AJ80

Add some brettanomyces Mick...that'll dry it out


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## TheWiggman

Booooooooooooo!
That's really strange Mick, 3787 (apparently the equivalent) is a beast and has messed up a few fridges on me. Mine made it to 1.007 so yours should be in that ball park. If the spoon doesn't work consider racking, I've read that's worked for a few people here on the forum. How much yeast did you pitch? Stir plate, fresh yeast, nutrient etc?


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## VP Brewing

Entered this in vicbrew. Fermented it with Wyeast 3739 Flanders golden ale yeast and added about a kg of the candi syrup we got from the swap in 2 additions near the end of ferment. 
Scored 38, 34 and 33 (105 total). Below is the best scoring sheet.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

There was about 4 absolutely delicious Belgian dark strongs we got to taste in the bar as stewards and one scored lower than a couple others yet was the top pick between the stewards, maybe it was your one!!! [emoji481]


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## DJ_L3ThAL

My W12 still hasn't carbed since April in the bottle, granted warmer weather is coming and it may kick in to life but doubtful. How risky is seeding the bottle with a sterile syringe of yeast slurry? Ie. uncap, drop of yeast in and recap?


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## VP Brewing

I'd give it a go on a few bottles and see if it works. Can't see there would be problem. Mine took ages to carb. Bottled 2nd of Jan and they are probably still under carbed for the style. I'm going to re-seed a RIS that I'll bottle tomorrow with 1ml of rehydrated yeast using a 1ml pipette. It's been in secondary on oak for 2 months.


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## malt junkie

Drinking this after the 1L Paulaner Octoberfest Bier, it seemed right when I grabbed the bottle  This is at shed temp around 12-14c and the malt is just diabolical, probably should have chilled a little, but **** it's a great beer. Well done techno!!


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## Mayor of Mildura

Might be a little late to the party but.. 

Finally got round to kegging this. Nice.


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## Morgz

Mayor of Mildura said:


> Might be a little late to the party but..
> 
> Finally got round to kegging this. Nice.


I don't think you've done that brew the justice it deserves. Might need a glass with gold trim or something. I bet it's smooth???


----------

