# Stainless Conicals



## Wortgames (7/9/05)

Hi everyone, I've been lubricating a mate of mine for a long time about making some stainless steel conical fermenters. Well the planets are finally aligning and the project is go. Basically, we have access to an extremely well-equipped thin stainless fabrication facility, all food/medical grade, cone formers, invisible welding, the lot.

So I'm going to knock out a couple of prototypes over the next couple of weeks, and I thought I'd seek your input and 'wish lists'. Here follows my basic description, for refinement or alteration by consensus:

*Construction:*
I'm picturing a double-batch (50-60L) vessel that will fit in an average upright fridge. Alternatively, a tallish single batch (30L) fermenter that could fit 2 to a fridge. It will be made from thin (1.2 or 1.6mm) 304 stainless and polished inside and out.
*Fittings:*
It will obviously have a drain at the bottom and another above about the 3L slurry mark (or about 2L for the single batch fermenter). It might be better to supply it with spigots but without taps etc, as some would prefer cheaper and others would want the whole dismantleable stainless deal. It will probably have 3 legs that hold it high enough to get a decent container under the bottom drain. It will probably have a pair of handles or a full perimeter rail for carrying.
*Lid:*
To keep costs down, I was thinking that people might prefer to sort out their own lid arrangement, unless we can come up with something simple - otherwise the lid could end up costing more to produce than the conical. I would like to try to make it fit a readily available tight-fitting plastic lid for starters. Any thoughts?
*Other options:*
Because this will be largely a batch process, we don't want to get into too much customising at this stage, although we could easily offer a few basic options if they were popular enough. These might include:
- a stainless heating/cooling coil welded to the outside
- thermometer spigot
- adjustable leg height
- anything else?

So some questions for general consensus would be:
What capacity would you want? Would you prefer to have one large one or two small ones?
Would you be keeping it in a fridge or free-standing it somewhere? Would you want wheels?
How high off the floor would you want the tip of the cone to be?
Would you prefer to buy the basic blank and add your own fittings, or buy it complete?

Obviously the cost is yet TBA but we are hoping to make them significantly cheaper than anything currently available. I should be able to get fairly good freight rates so interstate purchasers shouldn't be left out.


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## JasonY (7/9/05)

Sounds excellent worgames! Will look forward to seeing the results and the price!

From my perspective I would probably want a 50-60L one with external cooling coil, temp spigot, free standing. Would be perfectly happy with a clear perspex lid so I can watch the yeast. Height, will as long as it is easy to fill kegs would be my target. As for fittings I guess it should be easy to offer with or without but if the price is reasonable I would grab them with fittings to save stuffing about.

I wouldn't want to fill a fridge with one but pumping glycol through an external coil would be awesome.

Anyway I guess it is early days yet and price is always a killer with SS stuff. look forward to seeing how you go.


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## Doc (7/9/05)

> So some questions for general consensus would be:
> What capacity would you want? Would you prefer to have one large one or two small ones?
> Would you be keeping it in a fridge or free-standing it somewhere? Would you want wheels?
> How high off the floor would you want the tip of the cone to be?
> Would you prefer to buy the basic blank and add your own fittings, or buy it complete?



Sounds really interesting Wortgames.
Dependant on cost of course I'd be keen for maybe one of each (eg. 1 x 25-30 litres and 1 x 40-50 litres)
I'd want them to fit in my chest fermentation freezer (I don't know the height off the top of my head)..
I wouldn't want wheels, but extendable legs would be great. That way you could fit them in a fridge or freezer, then extend the legs for kegging the beer (ie. fit the keg underneath).
I'd prefer to get it complete.

Beers,
Doc


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## Asher (7/9/05)

I'd go the 60 litre version... Probably to fit in the fridge.
(A double walled one would be cool though)

I'd be after one with an air tight lid, so I could use CO2 to pump beer out if necessary. therefore leg height would no longer be an issue.... as long as is fitted in the fridge...

Asher for now


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## AndrewQLD (7/9/05)

Great project wortgames,
My preferences would be,
2 x 30lt to fit in fridge, reasons are 2 different brews at once the fridge temp can be regulated for lager or ale and easier to handle for cleaning.
Tip of the cone needs to be keg height.
I would like to have it fitted out but a temp spigot is not required
the plastic bucket lid idea is brilliant and easily replaceable
If you end up going with the larger one I would keep it to the 50lt size, i have a 60lt plastic fermenter and even with 2 brews there is too much headspace.

Keep us informed, I am sure you will have a few takers.

Cheers
Andrew


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## quincy (7/9/05)

Wortgames

Great idea!! 
I've been looking at SS fermenters for a while but have been put off mainly due to cost.

My preferences:

1. 50-60 litre.
2. Adjustable legs for same reason as Doc. Move from fridge/freezer and adjust to a reasonable height for kegging (say 700mm??).
3. Clear Plastic lid - cos I like to watch  
4. Prefer a complete kit.

My 2c.

Will be keeping a close eye on the progress. Good luck. :beer: 

Cheers


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## Wortgames (7/9/05)

Doc - would you be planning on lifting the thing out of a chest freezer to keg? I reckon they would be a really heavy lift (especially the 50L version!)

I was planning on using leg 'sockets' that would accept some stainless tube for legs, either with a locknut or pin arrangement or perhaps just a static 'dead end', and you could cut the legs to length.

Would many people actually want to adjust the height on a regular basis?

Would most people have an assistant to help with lifting the fermenter / locking the legs?


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## Boots (7/9/05)

Great stuff wortgames.

If i was to buy one (which I realistically couldn't this year but in the new year could), i reckon:

- Adjustable legs
- Without the taps
- 50 ltr ish, (I'd rather keep it out of the fridge, and have a cooling coil, then pump cool water / glycol from the fridge to save room. Temp control can be by controlling the speed of flow)
- wheels (maybe those adjustable ones that you can fold up once it is in place - or even mounted on the side of the legs so you have to tilt it and can then roll it like the B3 brew sculptures)
- A clear perspex lid like this

Will look forward to seeing how it all turns out mate.


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## Doc (7/9/05)

Wortgames said:


> Doc - would you be planning on lifting the thing out of a chest freezer to keg? I reckon they would be a really heavy lift (especially the 50L version!)



I wasn't planning on lifting it. Just making sure it fitted in the chest freezer. Then at kegging time open the lid of the freezer, extend the legs of the conical and put a keg underneath. 
The only lifting of it would be when it is empty as my assistant is only 3 years old.

Beers,
Doc


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## Wortgames (7/9/05)

Doc, did you see the legs as somehow raising the weight of the full conical, to get it high enough to keg from?


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## Justin (7/9/05)

Sounds cool mate. I'd be interested to see what the price comes out as. Regardless, I'd be unlikely to buy one due to the expense but maybe I could be drawn into a purchase.  

As for cone height, don't you want the side arm to be the right height for keg filling, as opposed to the bottom tap? I though the idea was to draw yeast and trub from the bottom tap then draw your finished beer from the side tap (often with a rotating racking arm-"optional"). That way you draw from above the yeast then rotate the arm to grab that last bit in the bottom. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you should gauge a "keg" height fermenter from the side tap.

Sounds good though. I'd be very keen to know a price. FWIW I'd be keener for a 30L job with fittings (not taps necessarily) with adjustable legs. Fridge fitting would not be necessary for me in Tassie. Also, what about making the fittings compatible with say B3's conicals so you could add a racking arm if you wanted etc. I don't know what other conical accessories there are available but compatibility would be cool?

Could I suggest at this point that anyone thinking about taps for these, can I suggest three peice dismantable (is that a word?) taps. Oooowww, there is some ugly crap that hides behind the ball in a normal valve. Go three piece.

Cheers and good luck. Should be fun to play with anyway and at least you'll probably get a fermenter out of it.
JD


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## Ross (7/9/05)

Wortgames,

I'd certainly be interested in a couple depending on cost etc, sizing maybe 1 of each, cooling coils would be extremly useful... Look forward developments  

Cheers Ross


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## Borret (7/9/05)

Wortgames said:


> Doc, did you see the legs as somehow raising the weight of the full conical, to get it high enough to keg from?
> [post="75777"][/post]​



Perhaps airbag suspension on the legs. You could then also preprogram it to shake the crap out of itself for airation :lol: 

Borret h34r:


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## Doc (7/9/05)

Wortgames said:


> Doc, did you see the legs as somehow raising the weight of the full conical, to get it high enough to keg from?
> [post="75777"][/post]​



I hadn't thought that hard about it. 
Maybe the ablity to lift it vertically at which point the legs would extend.
Maybe even a jack type system ?

Beers,
Doc


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## Justin (7/9/05)

It'd nearly be easier to build yourself a small coolroom Doc


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## Borret (7/9/05)

Doc said:


> Wortgames said:
> 
> 
> > Doc, did you see the legs as somehow raising the weight of the full conical, to get it high enough to keg from?
> ...



If you get desperate- how about a cheap block and tackle over your freezer? (If you don't mind a hook in the roof)


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## Tony M (7/9/05)

Hey doc, Maybe you can put some sort of fitting thru the side of your freezer


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## Doc (7/9/05)

Justin said:


> It'd nearly be easier to build yourself a small coolroom Doc
> [post="75798"][/post]​



That is in the longer term plan.
Once we build a proper garage at our place I can get rid of all the garderning stuff etc from my shed, and replace the shed with a coolroom. 
The shed backs onto the house where my home theatre room is. I will have the taps mounted on the wall next to the existing projector screen. 

Only need to win lotto, or the jackpot lottery :lol:

Doc


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## warrenlw63 (7/9/05)

Herein lies some of the problems of a conical.

Glycol jacketing seems to be the only sane way around everything. :unsure: 

It's a pity they can't be mounted onto some kind of ratcheted vertical stand with wheels on the bottom.

The more technically-inclined could chime in on that idea. 

Warren -


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## Doc (7/9/05)

Actually, just reading Ashers reply, and using CO2 to push the beer out sounds the go. Oh so much easier and makes the design and manufacturing of the units easier too.

Doc


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## Wortgames (7/9/05)

What about a maglev system? 

I suspect most brewers who would want a conical would probably have an upright fridge for it, or alternatively they would like to pump something through a coil to regulate the temperature. I don't think a full stainless fermenter would want to be moved around much, except maybe to wheel it from the brewing area to it's living quarters.

Mine will live in the fridge and be pump filled / gravity drained.

You guys will have to come up with your own tricks, I'll just concentrate on the basics


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## bonk (7/9/05)

instead of a coil for cooling, what about the morebeer idea and slap a peltier device on the side to cool it?


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## Wortgames (7/9/05)

I'll leave the gadgets up to you guys, but a stainless coil wouldn't be too hard to do and it sounds like a lot of people would find that useful.

As for size, how does 27L and 54L sound? This would allow 25 and 50L of liquid with a few inches of headspace.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/05)

I would be happy just to have mine on wheels, but then again I am after a slightly bigger one....

But I do own a fork lift, so that might get me out of trouble...


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## Linz (7/9/05)

I'll have a bare bones 25lt one(or two)...with legs and 2 spigots for the taps. You cant get it to fit the snap on lids from the bucket fermenters can you??and to think I was about to list a double door fridge on ebay!!..


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## redbeard (8/9/05)

Im also interested but depends somewhat on price. currently do about 20l brews but perhaps a 40 - 50l might be better long term ? or 2 x 25l ? mmmm with a 25l i would put it in the current ferm fridge but a 50l would probably have to sit outside, with a cooling coil
(unless i get a replacement full size ferm fridge). would probably want a basic fitout. are you thinking of 0.5" or 1" fittings ?

i guess we're talking a couple months here from prototype to final, so xmas present sounds good


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## ausdb (8/9/05)

Doc said:


> Actually, just reading Ashers reply, and using CO2 to push the beer out sounds the go. Oh so much easier and makes the design and manufacturing of the units easier too.
> 
> Doc
> [post="75807"][/post]​



I actually use the same thing to empty a 60L fermenter from inside the fridge, a few psi of CO2 into the blowoff tube is enough to transfer to kegs.

I have two squat 50L kegs at home that will fit in my fermenting fridge and have just teed up two damaged corney kegs for their lids , stay tuned for more details heres a hint http://www.kegs.com/fermenters1.html

Ausdb


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## Stagger (8/9/05)

I went down this track awhile ago and made a square fermenter with 60deg sloping sides, it worked a treat. The only problem is it didnt fit in my fridge so I sold it to a fellow brewer, in hind side I should have gone for the s/s coil. I have often thought of rolling a cone and welding it on to a keg, but been to lazy all the best with the project I know how much work is involved.


Stagger


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## Wortgames (8/9/05)

I'm not sure about pressurising these things, the lid arrangement looks like its the most complex part of the design and to get something that will hold a few PSI of pressure requires a fairly elaborate solution.

The best option, if I can find them, would be a drum lid - where you have a lever lock band to secure the lid (or maybe a perspex disc) to the fermenter. I am following up a couple of leads but these things don't come in too many sizes. If anyone knows of a supplier that would be a big help.

If that fails, I'll be trying to make them fit standard plastic pail lids, as this will be a nice cheap solution and will probably do the trick for the majority of brewers.

I think anything else is going to require too many parts and fabrication processes for now, and I want to avoid getting too bogged down on what is essentially a minor detail.


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## ausdb (8/9/05)

Wortgames said:


> I'm not sure about pressurising these things, the lid arrangement looks like its the most complex part of the design and to get something that will hold a few PSI of pressure requires a fairly elaborate solution.
> [post="75946"][/post]​



You only need about 1psi if that to get the beer moving. The one shown previously with the sheet of perspex would easily handle that and if the pressure was a bit high would probably distort and leak before shattering into a million pieces.

If you are building it to withstand serious pressure then remember it becomes a pressure vessel at over 15psi so needs to be engineered properly


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## tangent (8/9/05)

You guys seen the italian made stainless variable capacity fermenters?
The lid slides up and down inside the vessel and there's like a bike tube thing incorporated into the sides.
You just slide it down to whatever headspace you want and give it a pump and it seals off and stays at that level.
They generally start at 100L I think. Marketed to home winemakers.


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## Lukes (8/9/05)

Something like these pics?

Ibrew import them from the US.

http://www.fermenator.com/

ibrew 

I have never delt with them but I reckon they will not be cheap!

Luke


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## tangent (8/9/05)

I'd prefer a double walled fermenter about 3-4 times the size with variable capacity,
but very nice!


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## Rex (9/9/05)

warrenlw63 said:


> Glycol jacketing seems to be the only sane way around everything.
> [post="75805"][/post]​



Yeah, that's the conculsion I came to... And you can just use your existing freezer/temp control setup with a cheap pond pump and water/glycol bath.

No need to worry about it fitting it in the fridge/freezer or lifting it while full and heavy!

I'd be keen for 2 jacketed 60L jobs! Or maybe even a big 100-120L version would be practical using the above cooling method!


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## Guest Lurker (9/9/05)

To me the point of having one of these would be to see it, not have it shut in a fridge, so I would be looking at a cooling coil.


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## normell (12/9/05)

Sounds good, Wortgames, as long as the price is a lot better than the ones that ibrew import
"46 litre (12 US Gallon) weld free conical fermenter with flat lid ..AUD$1180.00 including GST
Including all fixtures, fittings (with latest 3 piece ball valve taps).
Stainless steel Leg extensions for both fermenators are an optional extra and available separately for $180.00 set."

$1360 plus postage is a little steep for this little black duck  :blink: 

Normell


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## Wortgames (12/9/05)

Hi Normell, yep I'll be planning to sell these for under $1100 :beer: 

Seriously, the price largely depends on the fittings and labour, but I've got some design ideas that should allow us to produce a good quality, complete, basic fermenter without a lot of superfluous engineering.

It's still a bit too early to think about cost, but as a ballpark figure I'm thinking these things will land in the $250 to $500 range depending on size and final specs.

We'll probably start with a single-batch unit, that will hold something like 27.5L to the rim so it will be perfect for +/-23L batches. The geometry for that one will sit perfectly within George Fix's guidelines and it looks like we can use some off-the-peg parts to keep the cost down.

A larger size is on the drawing board but it is a little trickier and a little costlier and it will have to wait until we've made a few of the small ones.

Stay tuned!


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## Doc (9/10/05)

Wortgames said:


> Stay tuned!
> [post="76596"][/post]​



Still tuned Wortgames.
Any updates ?

Doc


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## Wortgames (9/10/05)

Nothing much to tell at the moment Doc, I think we've just about got the lid arrangement sorted out for the 27(ish) litre model, and that will determine the exact dimensions of the fermenter, but they will be around 300mm across.

Unfortunately my mate's having a hard time getting workshop time at the moment as they've been snowed under with real work (I know, this IS real work, I keep telling him...) but if we can knock up a working prototype we might be able to get the basic parts fabricated by another shop and just do the welding at his place.

I haven't had a chance to look at fittings yet, but personally I like the idea of a rotating pickup tube on the side outlet, although the kits are bloody expensive. We might supply the first couple off the production line without a side fitting at all - it shouldn't be difficult for most people to drill a hole and mount their choice of pickup, and some people might be happy just using the bottom outlet anyway, especially if it makes the thing $200 cheaper!

I'll keep you posted on further developments as they occur...

:beer:


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## Batz (10/10/05)

I'll be very interested in one of these Wortgames

Put Batz on your list

Batz


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## Hoops (10/10/05)

Haven't had a chance to read through the whole thread but I would be very interested too.
I would probably go for the basic setup possibly without fittings and get them put on, probably triclove fittings.

If there's a couple of us from QLD then there might be a chance to put them all in together and save a bit on transporting them here, so keep me in mind too.

Hoops


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## ausdb (10/10/05)

Wortgames said:


> I haven't had a chance to look at fittings yet, but personally I like the idea of a rotating pickup tube on the side outlet, although the kits are bloody expensive. We might supply the first couple off the production line without a side fitting at all - it shouldn't be difficult for most people to drill a hole and mount their choice of pickup, and some people might be happy just using the bottom outlet anyway, especially if it makes the thing $200 cheaper!
> [post="81863"][/post]​



Hi wortgames, have you worked out how to do the rotating racking arm yet? This page has a good idea http://www.deerislandbrewery.com/rotating_racking_arm.htm but I believe it could be done even better with less sanitary joins than he has done.

cheers ausdb


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## redbeard (10/10/05)

could u get away with a fixed pickup tube, just using the bottom valve for yeast ?

on a different direction, ive seen some pics of conicals with what looks like a peltier cooler attached. I had some thoughts of adapting a computer water cooling solution design. wrap a copper / ss coil around the conical, cover in foam camping mat, then pipe the coil thru a heatsink sandwiching a decent peltier, with another big arse heatsink with huge fan attached. need a pump to push coolant (glycol?) thru. the nice aspect of the peltier, is that is can heat as well as cool, thou cooling might be all we need.


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## Wortgames (10/10/05)

Peltier devices are notoriously inefficient and you'd need a monster to chill a whole brew. I'm staying away from that side of things for the time being but hope to be able to offer an inexpensive coil or sleeve - the way I see it you can warm or chill the liquid however you like.

Pickup tubes are another area where everybody will have their own preference of price vs luxury, and unless I can offer a full range of options at a great price I'm not going to keep everybody happy so I'd rather just make the main unit available and leave the details for each brewer to sort out. I'll certainly see what I can come up with, but it's not really a priority at this stage.


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## Hoops (10/10/05)

Wortgames

as you say best to leave all that to others so you can concentrate on manufacturing the conicals.

SIZE : My preference would be for a 50L+ size.

LID : Lid is not important but I think it would be sooooo much easier if it can hold 1psi+ to pump out the beer. My preference though would be a 4" (100mm) BSM fitting or tri-clove fitting. This would make it easy to hold pressure, easy to fit other fitting (get a blank and drill out to fit airlocks, temp probes etc etc) and easy enough to undo and get a hand in to clean it.

RACKING ARM : I don't think a rotating racking arm is essential and they can always be ordered later as an upgrade. I actually think the way to go would be leave the bottom fitting and side fitting off and let people do their own, or have an option to weld a 1/2" BSP or triclove fitting on, then anything can be screwed/fitted on and made to adapt.

TEMP CONTROL : My preference would be to have one that would fit in a fridge but failing that I think a jacket would be the best option so that coolant could be pumped around it. Again if this is too expensive or too much design problems just go with a standard conical and people can fit their own coil inside through their lid.

To sum all that up I think keep it as simple as possible with a few basic options so that you don't need to make 20 different models. This will keep your capital required, time and designing to a minimum. You can always add fancy stuff later.

I will watch on eagerly and see what develops :super: 

Hoops


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## Hoops (10/10/05)

This is what I'm talking about :wub:


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## Wortgames (10/10/05)

Hi Hoops, I agree entirely.

The first lot will be the smaller size, simply because they are going to be easier and cheaper to build. We'll probably need to take care of the bottom fitting as it will be intrinsic to the construction, but the side fitting can easily be added later simply by drilling a hole.

Not sure if I've mentioned this already, but the lid arrangement I am looking at currently is a scratch-resistant polycarbonate disc with a silicone seal, which will clamp to the rim of the fermenter by means of a galvanised steel lever-action rim clamp (as found on large paint tins and oil drums).

If successful this arrangement should be easy to clean and construct, and will use fairly cheap and easily replaceable components. It should have no trouble holding 1 or 2 PSI.

The larger size probably won't be able to use a galvanised rim clamp as I haven't been able to find them in suitable sizes, so the option is either a more elaborate arrangement or a stainless steel rim clamp. The stainless rim clamps cost about $120 each, but that may still work out cheaper than having to fabricate a more elaborate solution. Stainless may be an option for the smaller size too, but I can't see too many of us forking out $120 more for something which won't even contact the wort.

The smaller size will be around 300mm diameter and the larger size probably around 400mm. It may be worth considering using 2 smaller fermenters instead of a single large one - they will probably fit in a fridge easier, they will be lighter to carry and clean, and the price may well work out to be about the same.


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## Rex (10/10/05)

Hoops said:


> This is what I'm talking about :wub:
> [post="82032"][/post]​



That's dead sexy!

What's the knob on the cone for? Where did you get it made? Does it have a cooling jacket?


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## BigAl (10/10/05)

Hoops, how do you get inside to clean that Cylindro connical? Or is it via a CIP system only? The idea of being able to take the top off to get in and clean it sound good.


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## ausdb (11/10/05)

Wortgames said:


> The larger size probably won't be able to use a galvanised rim clamp as I haven't been able to find them in suitable sizes, so the option is either a more elaborate arrangement or a stainless steel rim clamp. The stainless rim clamps cost about $120 each, but that may still work out cheaper than having to fabricate a more elaborate solution. Stainless may be an option for the smaller size too, but I can't see too many of us forking out $120 more for something which won't even contact the wort.



A 4" triclover ferrule, clamp, gasket and blank cap can be had for around $70 makes a good access panel for cleanout its bigger than a corny keg hatch and will hold pressure, it would not be that hard to manufacture. The extra cost would come from the domed top as in Hoops picture


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## jayse (11/10/05)

If the price for 'two smalls' will be around even with a 'large' then i'd certainlly get the two smaller ones. However iam in adelaide and freight costs would be the ultimate decider. The price you mentioned of $250-500 sounds quite nice. The idea of doing a basic model for as close to $250 as you can sounds lovely to me.
Ausdb's suggestion there of building a top on it and having a 4" triclover ferulle is cool.
For the cap it would be good to have a simple barb for a blow of tube and later co2 line.
Anyway I'd be up for the simplest of things with most important on my list being able to get reasonble pressure in it. That gives you the means of even serving beer from it, that has major beer nerd factor :super: 
Cooling methods should be quite easy for everyone to work out there own methods. If you wanted to jacket it or put coils on it I would think just wrapping it up in copper tubing would work well you could do several different coils in parralel with the cold water.
I don't think theres any need for any ellaborate racking arm, a side port is all anyone should need and others can fit whatever blows up there skirt when they get it. Shouldn't need any pick up tube inside.
Anyway its a big move for most to fork out a few hundred dollars for something that a 20 dollar 'bucket' has been doing so well for years. Being able to get up to 10psi with no leaks would be a big seller for me. But other than that simple and cheap.

Anyway all the best with it and looking forward to seing the progress.
'You got me floating'
Jayse


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## sluggerdog (11/10/05)

Only just found this thread and am reading with interest.

A big seller for me would to be able to ferment at lager temps without a fridge (would this be possible?) Would be great to do away with the extra fridge or use it for other important things.

This way I coudl do my double batches, would probably get the 2 smaller ones.


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## jimmyjack (11/10/05)

I love this whole concept I would be happy with the basic kit of the cylyndrical unit and lid. (The most inportant part) It would be nice to have all of the holes pre drilled for later upgrade, they could just be plugged with a cap. The stand would be nice but if it ads to the cost i am sure I could rig somthing up. not interested in cooling it as i already have a ferm fridge. I actually dont know how effecient this process would work anyway. If we could get away with one of these for 250 to 300 im in for sure, i would be willing to go into a shipping deal with the rest of the brisbanites.

Your humble servant

JJ


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## Plastic Man (11/10/05)

Wortgames

Would this work for a simple lid ??.

What about running the legs up over the top of the fermenter. A simple bar then slots into these and goes across the top of the fermenter horizontally say 5 10cm above the lid. A large butterfly screw/bolt, (excuse the terminology I aint very technical), with some sort of rubber bottom to spread the load fits thru a threaded hole in the bar and you basically screw this down onto the polycarbonate lid to seal it. Would be pretty simple. Maybe just need to cut some slots in the legs so the lid slides in between them.

Another simple idea would be to weld 3 bolts to the side of the fermenter along the rim, facing up, (maybe with a bit of a spacer so they sit say 10mm off the side of the fermenter). The lid has 3 holes in it that fit over these bolts and you screw a butterfly nut down on all three to lock the lid down. It would mean that the lid would need to be about 20mm wider than the top of the fermenter, but I dont think this would be an issue. Would be cheap and easy. A silicon seal along the top edge of the fermenter creates the seal against the polycarbonate lid. No need to do anything fancy with the top which must save some cost.

These may not work but maybe they lead to an idea that will who knows Hope it helps. Would also be keen on one of the small ones when ready.


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## ausdb (11/10/05)

Hoops said:


> This is what I'm talking about :wub:
> [post="82032"][/post]​



Who made that one Hoops?
Is that a large BSM fitting on the top?


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## Wortgames (11/10/05)

A triclover lid fitting will unfortunately be hugely expensive to produce. Firstly, on top of the cost of the fittings, we'd need to produce a lid and fabricate a flange to accept the triclover clamp. Then we still need to attach the lid to the body of the fermenter, so we are back at square one.

I'm not building Bentleys here. All fab work that needs to be done will probably add around $50 per hour to the final cost, not including parts, so I want to avoid getting bogged down in an elaborate design that it is going to inflate the end cost out of reach and stifle production. There's still a bit to be done below the lid!

Plastic Man, I have already considered your second method as a possibility and it may be the way we go for the larger size but if I can make my first choice work it should be neater and cheaper to produce, and hopefully won't be as prone to scratching and chipping from the wingnuts over time. I want to avoid using the legs for the lid mechanism as I'd like to keep them adjustable and possibly even give people the option of sourcing their own legs locally.

Thanks for the ideas everyone, watch this space and hopefully we'll have something built in the next couple of weeks.


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## ausdb (11/10/05)

Wortgames said:


> A triclover lid fitting will unfortunately be hugely expensive to produce. Firstly, on top of the cost of the fittings, we'd need to produce a lid and fabricate a flange to accept the triclover clamp. Then we still need to attach the lid to the body of the fermenter, so we are back at square one.
> 
> I'm not building Bentleys here. All fab work that needs to be done will probably add around $50 per hour to the final cost, not including parts, so I want to avoid getting bogged down in an elaborate design that it is going to inflate the end cost out of reach and stifle production. There's still a bit to be done below the lid!
> 
> [post="82087"][/post]​



It was only meant as an idea, if a stainless clamp was going to cost $120 then you still need some sort of lid for the container which would cost to fabricate as well. The flange for the triclover clamp is a plain off the shelf triclover ferrule.


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## Hoops (11/10/05)

Firstly the photo I posted is not mine unfortunately but another brewer in my club.
They were locally made in Brisbane and yes it is a BSM fitting on the top (4" from memory).

Rex - not sure what knob you're talking about but there are 2 ball valves (dump valve and racking valve) then a small tap/valve for sampling and taking SG measurements.
No it doesn't have a cooling jacket but instead goes straight into a glass door fridge where it's temp is controlled and you can still view it  

BigAl - the top has a 4" BSM fitting that as ausdb says is a biger access hole than a corny keg so that's how you get inside to clean it.

ausdb - yes it's a 4" BSM fitting.

As far as the lid is concerned I would much more prefer one like that in the photo (rolled edges and a 4" fitting) so much so that I would propably get it upgraded locally to that effect, but finding something that can do it and is willing is another story. As Jayse suggest with a lid like that you could easily undo the triclove clamp, take of the blank with airlock, and place a different blank (possibly with pressure gauge fitted) and pressurise to serving pressure and serve straight out of it....just like Little Creatures do  

Wortgames, would it be possible to pay extra and get that done or are you just sticking to basics as it would be too much more work?
The Triclove fitting is an off the shelf piece. For example the ferrule ($20?) could be welded on then leave it to the individual to get the other ferrule or blank + clamp etc so that you have less outlay and less to worry about.
Would it be possible to get for example mine with a 1/2" triclove ferrule ($5-10) for the dump valve and racking valve? I would then get whatever other triclove fittings I needed so there's less for you to worry about.

You're getting me very excited here  

Hoops


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## Wortgames (11/10/05)

Re: triclover fittings - the issue as I see it is that unless you can get them 300mm in diameter, the triclover fitting still has to attach to a "lid" of some description, and then the lid still has to somehow attach to the body of the fermenter.

Welding any type of stainless lid directly to the fermenter body is not ideal, as it makes it very difficult to get in there to inspect and polish the inner welds and you will end up with bugtraps. So if we're not going to weld it, then we're back where we started with having to make a seal, and the triclover fitting really just becomes a bit of an extra gadget that hasn't actually solved anything.

The solution I am trying to make is actually very similar to a triclover arrangement in principle, in that it uses a clamping ring to squish the lid and the fermenter together, but it will be cheaper and larger and hopefully bypass a lot of fabrication steps. Having a full-size lid will also be better for most of us for observation, access and cleaning.

The way I see it, if I can supply these things with a simple polycarbonate disc and seal, and a groovy way to attach it, then you guys can knock yourselves out with modifications. You can get a stainless disc cut and weld a satellite dish to it if that makes you happier, and it can still attach with the same clamp and seal. I just want to get the basic thing built quickly and economically, and hopefully in a good versatile design that will let brewers trick them up as required.

We may be able to offer certain "factory" mods down the track but I'm largely relying on busy mates and after-hours workshop time, so I'd like to get a decent batch of vanilla flavour fermenters built before getting caught up in the toppings, especially as most people would be able to get the little mods done locally anyway.


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## Rex (12/10/05)

Hoops said:


> Firstly the photo I posted is not mine unfortunately but another brewer in my club.
> They were locally made in Brisbane and yes it is a BSM fitting on the top (4" from memory).



Post more pics for us to drool over if you've got any  

BTW where was this one made? Perhaps they would be interested in a bulk deal???


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## Rex (12/10/05)

Wortgames said:


> Welding any type of stainless lid directly to the fermenter body is not ideal, as it makes it very difficult to get in there to inspect and polish the inner welds and you will end up with bugtraps.



Yeah, I guess it would be easier if you were welding the cone to the cylinder like in Hoops pics, or can you source a single piece for this?


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## Wortgames (12/10/05)

The cone and the cylinder will be 2 parts welded together, but it will be easy for us to polish the internal welds.


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## jimmyjack (12/10/05)

wg, If you were to use a weldless fitting you would have to disassemble it every single time to clean and sanitize each individual piece. Any thoughts to welding the valves?


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## Hoops (12/10/05)

jimmyjack said:


> wg, If you were to use a weldless fitting you would have to disassemble it every single time to clean and sanitize each individual piece. Any thoughts to welding the valves?
> [post="82236"][/post]​


That is why I suggest either a 1/2" BSM fitting welded on or a 1/2" triclove fitting welded on. That way a ball valve or triclove fitting can simply be connected to it.

Triclove are better for brewing applications for a few reasons. There is no thread so less chance of trapping bugs, plus it is 2 ferrules that connect together so there is no male or female side so they are much more interchangeable.

Hoops


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## Wortgames (12/10/05)

The bottom spigot will be welded into the design with a removable valve. I am tempted not to fit a side spigot at all at this stage, as people will have different preferences and at the end of the day it should be possible to remove all sediment through the bottom valve before racking and kegging anyway. The rotating racking arm design uses a weldless fitting that just mounts through a hole, so it would be pointless welding a side spigot to them all, and I'd prefer to make 20 basic fermenters than one with all the bells and whistles. That way, if I run out of favours all we need to do is get a spigot welded or a hole drilled if we want a side port.


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## ausdb (12/10/05)

If you are going to the effort of making a conical then you might as well make it as sanitary as possible. Weldless fittings are bug traps (I'm with you hoops) even the bottom should be a sanitary connection then leave it up to the purchaser to buy the valve to go on the bottom. Threads internally are not sanitary, how many times do people get infections from tap threads with plastic fermenters unless you pull them apart every time and clean them


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## tangent (19/10/05)

lol Borret!

my dream is a 60L conical
maybe cooling coil as an aftermarket or make your own
also maybe the 30L ones should be able to go in the fridge.
i'm happy to supply my own legs/base for it.
probably save on frieght also
happy if it takes a standard size plastic lid or something similar


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## Wortgames (19/10/05)

The conicals are getting closer guys. Spent most of the day today getting some details sorted out, it's all looking good.

Hopefully we will have a prototype built within a week or so, and we should be able to get the price down to quite a sensible level.

Will let you know as soon as I have some previews.


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## sluggerdog (19/10/05)

Wortgames said:


> The conicals are getting closer guys. Spent most of the day today getting some details sorted out, it's all looking good.
> 
> Hopefully we will have a prototype built within a week or so, and we should be able to get the price down to quite a sensible level.
> 
> ...



Thanks WG, looking forward to it! :beer:


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## Doc (19/10/05)

Cheers Wortgames.
Xmas present wishlist on hold pending your updates 

Doc


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## big d (19/10/05)

looks like i will need to be saving more money to spend on a conical.  

cheers
big d


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## Uncle Fester (20/1/06)

WG,
Any movement on the conicals? (Or has the thread moved on?)

M


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## Uncle Fester (13/3/06)

*Bump*


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## Andyd (12/4/07)

I'm still interested in looking into conicals... any movement on thes WG?


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## Wortgames (12/4/07)

Actually I started another thread since - sorry about that, not sure why I did that.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=7442

I also replied in this thread:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=13163


The situation is basically that progress has 'stalled' for the time being - I have a lot of the materials here (actually a small fortune worth), but my mate the tigger has been through a lot of jobs lately and so his access to things like jigs hasn't been stable enough to get stuck into assembling them. He is also a new dad to a child with an 'assertive' mum so I guess his priorities lie elsewhere.

We have recently been discussing the option of using his trade contacts to get the basic bodies produced commercially to our specs, and then just doing the tricky work like fittings ourselves which would need little or no jigging. This could actually work out to be a smart move commercially too if the numbers are enough to get the per-unit production costs down. I will definitely bring it up with him again and try to get the ball rolling, I'm as keen as anyone to get these things happening but circumstances are conspiring against me at the moment.

Thanks for the reminder though


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