# Biab Bling Ideas



## PistolPatch (15/8/07)

OK guys, BIAB is due for some bling.

Do you have any ideas? Maybe you even have some ideas for being able to both BIAB and traditionally brew on the one stand? (I'm not convinced of any advantage to this but I still love new ideas )

The only ideas I have so far (and they need your input) are....

a) Turning the Bag into a Basket: This idea has been stolen by me from I think James Squire and certainly from Fingerlickin. I'd love a basket made out of termimesh instead of the bag but how do you do that?

B) A Sliding Skyhook: It'd be great to be able to either lift the bag/basket and then once drained, slide it away from the kettle to be dumped in a bucket or whatever.

One big disadvatage of traditional brewing is needing 3 vessels to brew one beer. Does anyone have any ideas on how to maybe have 2 or 3 BIAB vessels to simultaneously brew 2 or 3 beers but reducing the need for multiple burners or chillers? I haven't thought of any as yet but I'm sure someone will.

Anyway, I hope the above is enough to get the b all rolling.

Spot ya,
Pat


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## Enerjex (15/8/07)

Although not a BIAB brewer currently (did use a mini version of it for partials though!), seeing this thread got my mind wondering. I think it's pure genius, but you can be the judge. This gives you flexibility in strike temperature and also prevents scolding while doing it. :lol: 

Sorry guys, it's going to be a long boring night for me, had to do something to lift the spirit here


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## mimerbryg (15/8/07)

Hello Pat

Here is a picture of the one I use




And below is a link to someone who build one himself:
LINK

I think you could drill some moe (+1000) holes at the sides/walls too without loosing the stability of the bucket.

Kind regards
Flemming


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## ArnieW (15/8/07)

Hey PistolPatch,

this stuff might be what you are looking for to add bling to biab - I've even referenced you  

HERMAN & HERMLET

Have a look at the HERMLET stuff, including the photo album to get the idea.

cheers, Arnie


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## kook (15/8/07)

The Singer Quantum XL6000 seems pretty bling.

:lol: h34r:


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## Enerjex (15/8/07)

lol i knew i wouldn't be the first


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## jayse (15/8/07)

Please move along to the next post if your a avid BIABer and offend easily what follows is talk of what real brewers use, a *mash tun*  



PistolPatch said:


> OK guys, BIAB is due for some bling.
> 
> Do you have any ideas? Maybe you even have some ideas for being able to...........
> 
> The only ideas I have so far (and they need your input) are....



Best bling you could add too it is a *mash tun*




PistolPatch said:


> a) Turning the Bag into a Basket: This idea has been stolen by me from I think James Squire and certainly from Fingerlickin. I'd love a basket made out of termimesh instead of the bag but how do you do that?
> 
> B) A Sliding Skyhook: It'd be great to be able to either lift the bag/basket and then once drained, slide it away from the kettle to be dumped in a bucket or whatever.



Instead of turn the bag into a basket turn it into a *mash tun*
Instead of the whole big skyhook idea and gods knows what other contraption build a *mash tun*




PistolPatch said:


> One big disadvatage ...........




<_< 



kook said:


> The Singer Quantum XL6000 seems pretty bling.



My mums got one of them maybe I could make a bit of cash on the side getting her to embroider pics of PP on BIABers grain bags. 

Seriously guys you don't need three vessels to do a all grain with a mash tun, the tun and a kettle thats it! and i'am sure it would be better than BIABing.
Sorry to bring a downer but all good arguements need two sides and as is new brewers that read the BIAB threads are only getting 'this is the best way' comments which I personally don't agree with and I know others feel the same.
Heres a pic of what happens when people start doing things the wrong way...they become a laughing stock.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (15/8/07)

jayse said:


> Please move along to the next post if your a avid BIABer and offend easily what follows is talk of what real brewers use, a *mash tun*
> Best bling you could add too it is a *mash tun*
> Instead of turn the bag into a basket turn it into a *mash tun*
> Instead of the whole big skyhook idea and gods knows what other contraption build a *mash tun*
> ...


Bit of a one eyed labour v's liberal approach.Moderation is a virtue. As a three vessel brewer (non BIAB) Im very interested to see how BIAB develops.There seems to be a keen interest there and its a good cheaper way of getting brewers into mash brewing.They (biabers) have got my support.But this will not change the way I brew.R&D is a good learning curve.Go for it guys :super: 
Gryphon Brewing


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## Online Brewing Supplies (15/8/07)

mimerbryg said:


> Hello Pat
> 
> Here is a picture of the one I use
> 
> ...


Flemming
To obtain the best efficience on a lauter screen you should only have about 20% of the screen area open :IE 80% solid..Nice looking piece of work though.
Cheers GryphonBrewing


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## jayse (15/8/07)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Bit of a one eyed labour v's liberal approach.



Yes well said, I should have said it requires at least two sides of arguement but ideally should have many.
The point being it hasn't had many because not many people play part in these threads other than the BIAB people. The input from people such as yourself that is not a BIAB person was what I was hoping to bring to the fold.


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## Darren (15/8/07)

Gold woven bag?

Certainly would add to the Bling factor?


cheers

Darren


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## weizenhiemer (15/8/07)

Here's one for you BIAB Ladies.






Shiny bling


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## Enerjex (15/8/07)

I think you'll find this add funcionality and the much desired bling to BIAB


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## Enerjex (15/8/07)

damn beat me to it weizenhiemer!


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## jayse (15/8/07)

weizenhiemer said:


> Here's one for you BIAB Ladies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Classic :lol: 

Hey I can't find that on the craftbrewer website, bulk buy anyone?


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## Darren (15/8/07)

Enerjex said:


> I think you'll find this add funcionality and the much desired bling to BIAB





Energex,

Is that automated BIAB?

sorry guys. I do like the idea of BIAB. Not sure why you need the bag though? :beer: 

cheers

Darren


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## Online Brewing Supplies (15/8/07)

jayse said:


> Yes well said, I should have said it requires at least two sides of arguement but ideally should have many.
> The point being it hasn't had many because not many people play part in these threads other than the BIAB people. The input from people such as yourself that is not a BIAB person was what I was hoping to bring to the fold.


Yes a good point.And im sure we will all learn some thing be it good or not .I hope to see my first BIAB in a few weeks and add some of my own opinions and recomendations on the process.I will have to wait and see.Till then Im neutral.


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## poppa joe (15/8/07)

I made a steel Tripod..Fits Between pot...Lifts the bag..Slides away......  
REPLACES PP's Skyhook...  
PJ :beerbang:


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## Enerjex (15/8/07)

:super: that's one of the funniest things i've seen in a while weizenhiemer!


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## Thirsty Boy (15/8/07)

> Seriously guys you don't need three vessels to do a all grain with a mash tun, the tun and a kettle thats it! and i'am sure it would be better than BIABing.
> Sorry to bring a downer but all good arguments need two sides and as is new brewers that read the BIAB threads are only getting 'this is the best way' comments which I personally don't agree with and I know others feel the same.
> Heres a pic of what happens when people start doing things the wrong way...they become a laughing stock



So Jayse... just wondering how many BIAB brews it took you doing before you had gathered enough experience and evidence about the method to come to the conclusion that it was inferior to the point where it might render people who do it a laughing stock??

I hope its a fair few.... because I BIAB, and I'd be pretty damn insulted if you had classified me as a laughing stock for choosing to brew the way I do, unless you had a fair bit of actual hard evidence to back you up. I wouldn't particularly like it if someone were to insult me by inference, because they were simply conjecting that they "thought" there was something wrong with the way I brew.

Or perhaps I should infer that you are laughable simply because when I am brewing professionally, I use a 5 vessel system, and its obvious that you couldn't possibly be brewing properly with your little homebrew sized 3 vessel system... I've never seen you do it, or tasted your beer... but "I'm sure" that my way "would be better than 3 vessel'ing" because you are "doing things the wrong way".

People and most especially new brewers who might be considering AG brewing should indeed be presented with a balanced argument about the several different methods they might choose for their brewing. Each of those methods will have their advocates who should argue for their method and perhaps against the others.

Tell them about your system, what it does well, what its failings might be, where you believe it is superior to a different type of system... 

If you think that people shouldn't head in the direction of BIAB, thats great, fire away with anything and everything that you know is wrong with the method, or where you know that a more traditional system simply does a better job at a particular aspect of the brewing process. But I wouldn't mind perhaps if you qualify just _how_ it is that you know.

I'm all ears.... enlighten me as to the error of my ways. I really want to know.


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## Thirsty Boy (15/8/07)

weizenhiemer said:


> Here's one for you BIAB Ladies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now that is bloody funny.... :lol:


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## jayse (15/8/07)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I'm all ears.... enlighten me as to the error of my ways. I really want to know.



There really is too much to the whole arguement for me to fully post what I have to say In one post right now, and I'am not even about too even start ATM but I will if you insist have a crack later..

This is why I brought up the arguement hoping to get a few other brewers that have as you said done both ways or even not to at least give some dimension to the whole BIAB is the greatest one sided pat is king thing.

I don't mean for a second to play down you or anyone as a brewer but merely bring into the equation that building a mash tun and brewing as per 'the book' is not so far a disavantage as PP might have you believe.



> If you think that people shouldn't head in the direction of BIAB, thats great, fire away with anything and everything that you know is wrong with the method, or where you know that a more traditional system simply does a better job at a particular aspect of the brewing process. But I wouldn't mind perhaps if you qualify just how it is that you know.



The thing has been with the BIAB threads that everyone who thinks its the wrong way to go doesn't bother to even read the threads and possibly just cringe and look away and in that respect people are only getting the pro side of the equation. Now I'am not about to go into the con side right now but I will later. My point of the whole bringing up this argument was to hopefully get some of the other brewers against this method for new brewers to speak up aswell because as is its very one sided pat is god what ever he does must be the way to do things and no one who disagrees bothers to reply because there too busy laughing.

I did warn in my first post I would offend and too look away. but I stick by my guns its time for the whole thing to come head to head and lets bring each side of the arguements together and the pros and cons of each to be saddled up more evenly rather than new brewers coming into these threads and only getting one side because other brewers that don't BIAB simply don't read these threads.


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## ausdb (16/8/07)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Flemming
> To obtain the best efficience on a lauter screen you should only have about 20% of the screen area open :IE 80% solid..Nice looking piece of work though.
> Cheers GryphonBrewing



Neville this is actually part of a herms system, that was discussed a long while back under the heading of All In One Brewery.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=11074&hl=
Fleming and his Danish mates have come up with a pretty nifty herms system that uses the one vessel to mash, sparge and then boil in. BIAB is I guess a [Flame suit mode] simplified / poor mans version [/Flame suit mode] that came up as a result of the discussion, without some of the advantages of a herms system as in mash temp control and clear run off but less chance of the dreaded HSA. I guess some people just blow their own trumpets a lot more so this has sort of got lost in the mix. 

I do have the bits and pieces to put together an all in one so I will let you know when it is up and running and you can sample the results, I actually like the idea of the all in one for a compact brewery.


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## Thirsty Boy (16/8/07)

Jayse.

Fine, great reasons. I agree with basically all of them.

Your call to bring balance into the argument can do nothing but good to the cause of brewing. I suggest you start.

When you say that there is too much to the argument to go into now, fair enough if you want to include philosophical meanderings. But how hard can it be to list faults that you have found in the method? How many can there be?

How about you start with 3 and work on it from there?

Oh and the Pat is king thing was just rude and uncalled for. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously, perhaps you could keep them objective and avoid personal slurs


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## warrenlw63 (16/8/07)

Yes! No upsetting the BIAB sponsors!!  

Warren -


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## MAH (16/8/07)

jayse said:


> building a mash tun and brewing as per 'the book' is not so far a disavantage as (BIABers) might have you believe.



I think Jayse has quite nicely summed it up in this one sentence. There used to be this great mysticism around building a mash/lauter tun, when well meaning enthusiasts believed that we needed to replicate commercial designs. This lead to great debate about sparge arms and how to prevent channeling of the mash. Then through trial and a little error, homebrewers learnt all you needed was an esky and some hose braid. 

The central point to BIAB is the simplicity, but now the storyline is turning to introducing bling, like replacing the bag with a SS basket. If you're going down that path, then wouldn't it be easier to just build a mash tun.

You would have noticed that I haven't made any comment on the quality of the beer capable of being made by BIAB and that is because I think this is secondary to the original rationale. No one said at the start of the BIAB threads that it would make better beer, just that it could make good beer with less set-up. But what is so hard about one pot and one esky with a bit of hose braid.

Cheers
MAH


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## PistolPatch (16/8/07)

Well, well, well.

Firstly thanks for all the links and laughs above. Excellent! Some of them I'm still looking forward to having a proper read of and better laugh at 

Unfortunately though one of our moderators has taken the thread off-topic. This thread is not a debating thread jayse. This one here is where you could have done your post. That thread openly asks for criticisms of BIAB.

Jayse I have no idea why anyone could possibly find BIAB a laugh. From the start the process has involved a lot of considered input by long-term brewers. So, unless these very experienced guys are idiots then what is there to laugh at? Since then, those who have had a crack at BIAB have done much to try and find it's limitations however it seems to be able to produce a beer equivalent to traditional brewing. There are also a few brewers now, including myself, who no longer traditionally brew or do both.

We've also gone out of our way to actively encourage comparisons and more recently encourage entering beers into comps. It's all been a pretty sensible and thoughtful progression.

But maybe jayse, from your comments, it is really me that you think is the laughing stock?

This would certainly be more logical than laughing at BIAB. One of my many personality flaws (in some instances it can be a strength) is that I become absorbed in looking at grey areas and turning them into black and white. It's like a hobby for me. In fact I spent 15 years teaching it across the country professionally. You might find it a bit weird and a laugh that someone would spend hours pondering certain problems. Fair enough. But, as I said, for me it is a hobby and I generally find it challenging and enjoyable.

Occassionally someone does write a nice thank you (just as I do when people help me out). This is really appreciated. I don't think many of these thank yous are over the top and certainly are just meant as encouragement. Many of these will be written because I have written several pages in an email or PM or given my phone number to someone who is having probs understanding something which I might know something about. Certainly no one sees me as someone 'up there.' I mean all they have to do is see one of my inebriated posts which sometimes I'm not quick enough to edit. :unsure: 

So I might be a bit of a weirdo in your book for finding the process of turning grey areas into black and white and attempting to pass on knowledge that I have distilled from others or occassionally stumbled across myself. Fair enough, some people do find it wierd that other people can enjoy something like that.

But one thing I don't think you can call me is incredible. If you look through my posts, you'll find sound logic or evidence for what advice I give. Where I am unsure of something, I'll say that I'm unsure and ask to be corrected.

Now would it be oK if any further comments along this line were put in the thread I linked above? This thread is reserved for handbags, mice, and sewing machines.

Neville and thirsty - thanks guys.

Catch ya,
Pat (The Emperor Who Must Be Wearing No Clothes)


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## jayse (16/8/07)

Thirsty Boy said:


> When you say that there is too much to the argument to go into now, fair enough if you want to include philosophical meanderings. But how hard can it be to list faults that you have found in the method? How many can there be?
> 
> How about you start with 3 and work on it from there?



The main thing put forward to this is trying to tell people BIAB is the easiest and best way to start your first brew because you only need a kettle and a bag instead of a 3 vessel system as if there is nowhere in between the two.

Say you start with a kettle then the choice is yours should you get a bag made up or a mashtun because either one is all you need.
For using a mash tun you can heat your liquor in your kettle and hold it in your fermentor or any old bucket while your draining the wort into the kettle etc, everyones clearly got a fermentor ready.

So given this it is simply a choice between hey should I sew up a bag or build a mashtun. The arguement is the bag is cheaper and easier but infact you can make a mashtun for pretty much next to nothing. I just scored two 20L mayo buckets from a hotel for nothing and drilled holes in the bottom of one and sat it inside and put a couple dollar tap on the bottom one. So all it costs was a couple dollars.

I think it should be fairly clear which method would be the better and easier of the two.

I'am not trying to say here BIAB is no good at all I'am simply trying say building a mashtun doesn't need to be anymore costly or harder and that you don't need anymore equipment than that.
A mayo bucket with holes drill everywhere could possibly make a good basket for this BIAB idea but using it as a mashtun would be the direction I would advise.




Thirsty Boy said:


> Oh and the Pat is king thing was just rude and uncalled for. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously, perhaps you could keep them objective and avoid personal slurs



Fair enough, I'll leave pats links to royality out of my arguement.


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## AndrewQLD (16/8/07)

> But what is so hard about one pot and one esky with a bit of hose braid.
> 
> Cheers
> MAH



That is exactly how most brewers started out, a boiler/HLT and an esky, that's only two items.
It seems to me that the BIAB system that was originally started as a ONE pot, SIMPLE system with the goal of encouraging brewers into the all grain arena. It's whole attraction was you didn't need to gather any special equipment to get started.
Now reading through the latest threads it seems all sorts of equipment is needed to help make your brew day easier, Sky hook, termimesh grain bag, mesh buckets, tripod, weldless thermometer ect. Looks like it's getting to be more than a boiler and a bag, in fact that's more equipment than I started grain brewing with.

I am not knocking BIAB, and good on you guys for evolving and improving your systems, but this has changed from an entry level system to encourage new brewers into AG, into one just as complex as a full AG system is anyway. 

Cheers
Andrew


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## jayse (16/8/07)

PistolPatch said:


> snipped>
> Unfortunately though one of our moderators has taken the thread off-topic. This thread is not a debating thread jayse. This one here is where you could have done your post. That thread openly asks for criticisms of BIAB.
> 
> snipped>
> ...



Sorry posted at the same time as you and did think when I was rambling that this arguement should be in the other thread.

EDIT: isn't that thread like 42 pages long? maybe the argument does fit here, ie adding bling to BIAB the arguement being maybe you shouldn't be going down that track.


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## Sammus (16/8/07)

ArnieW said:


> Hey PistolPatch,
> 
> this stuff might be what you are looking for to add bling to biab - I've even referenced you
> 
> ...



Isn't the HERMLET pretty simliar to the Braumeister?

I've often thought about building one of them  would be cheaper than buying anyway....

S


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (16/8/07)

Bling


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## deebee (16/8/07)

Vlad the Pale Aler said:


> Bling




As usual, and in accordance with his signature, Vlad hits a nail on its head.

Anyhoo, I don't read this forum much any more because of the huge volume of chat, backslapping, politics and non-brewing related crap that goes on in here. I can't be bothered. But as far as I'm concerned BIAB is about brewing and has a place on AHB.

Remember the no chill threads - a few brewers trying to do something different to see whether the process could be changed. There was a fair bit of supercilious derision thrown at those who were just trying it out and informing the rest of us. But the idea was thrashed out and it was easy to recognise who had tried it and who just wanted to make a loud noise. In the end, I read the debate and cut an hour off my brew day. 

Same with BIAB. If you've got a contribution, make it. If not, be quiet.

DB

Edit: to remove profanity,


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## SpillsMostOfIt (16/8/07)

AndrewQLD said:


> That is exactly how most brewers started out, a boiler/HLT and an esky, that's only two items.
> It seems to me that the BIAB system that was originally started as a ONE pot, SIMPLE system with the goal of encouraging brewers into the all grain arena. It's whole attraction was you didn't need to gather any special equipment to get started.
> Now reading through the latest threads it seems all sorts of equipment is needed to help make your brew day easier, Sky hook, termimesh grain bag, mesh buckets, tripod, weldless thermometer ect. Looks like it's getting to be more than a boiler and a bag, in fact that's more equipment than I started grain brewing with.
> 
> ...



Adding bits and pieces to the single-vessel system does not change the validity of the original concept, nor does it enforce any of those additions onto people wanting to try the technique or get their own AG thing happening.

If it did, there is a whole universe of stuff that invalidates the traditional homebrew system as well. We don't need temperature controllers (for mash-tun or refrigerator), refrigerators, wort-chillers, sanitary fittings, March pumps (or even ball-valves - use a syphon!), hop-balls, hop socks, stir-plates, blah, blah, blah.

You can start with absolutely minimal amounts of kit whether you buy mash-tun or curtain material and optionally add bits and pieces as you desire. So, nothing has changed except that we are building on the concept as inventive and inquiring minds are wont to do.


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## Thirsty Boy (16/8/07)

I have to say I kind of agree with some points being made here..

Putting bling on a BIAB system is sort of like putting a V8 into a prius.. kind of defeats the original intentions of the method.

But, having said that, while BIAB's raison d'tre is more or less to be Simple, Cheap, Space/Gear efficient... Hell, if people have brewed a few brews, examined the brewing options available to them and decided that the one they prefer is BIAB, then why not add some fancy bits, or some labour saving devices.

You dont need a pump on a trad system... but lots of people have them, you dont need QDs on every in/outlet but it makes life easier; and you dont need a skyhook to do BIAB, but I think I'm gonna put one up anyway.

You see, even though one of the major benefits of BIAB is that it is indeed Simple, Cheap, Space/Gear efficient, the assumption that it needs to be all of those things, or you should be changing to a trad system, is to assume that the process itself is inferior and should only be accepted as a compromise.

I don't at this point believe that that is the truth.

So bling away my BIAB brothers in arms.. be not ashamed to stick sequins to your bag and a tassel on the drawstring.

Thirsty


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## Thirsty Boy (16/8/07)

jayse said:


> The main thing put forward to this is trying to tell people BIAB is the easiest and best way to start your first brew because you only need a kettle and a bag instead of a 3 vessel system as if there is nowhere in between the two.
> 
> Say you start with a kettle then the choice is yours should you get a bag made up or a mashtun because either one is all you need.
> For using a mash tun you can heat your liquor in your kettle and hold it in your fermentor or any old bucket while your draining the wort into the kettle etc, everyones clearly got a fermentor ready.
> ...



Jayse, I have replied to this in the main BIAB thread. I really do think that that is where this argument belongs.

MAH - same answer will address your post OK

Thirsty


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## PistolPatch (16/8/07)

AndrewQLD said:


> Now reading through the latest threads it seems all sorts of equipment is needed to help make your brew day easier, Sky hook, termimesh grain bag, mesh buckets, tripod, weldless thermometer ect. Looks like it's getting to be more than a boiler and a bag, in fact that's more equipment than I started grain brewing with.
> 
> I am not knocking BIAB, and good on you guys for evolving and improving your systems, but this has changed from an entry level system to encourage new brewers into AG, into one just as complex as a full AG system is anyway.
> 
> ...



I'm going to write something in the main BIAB thread as well in a minute re why a bag is simpler and cheaper than a mash tun listing reasons that no one has mentioned above. But, before I do, I have to respond to Andrew's post. Andrew was a big help when we started mucking around with BIAB and even did the first full-volume mash in an esky.

Andrew, BIAB has definitley not done what you are implying above. The guide is the same. A skyhook is a $2.50 coach eye hook and is hardly high tech. Anyone considering using a weldless thermometer has been discouraged from it as the probe interferes with the bag. People just use, as I do, a hand-held thermometer. I don't even use a kettle tap. Also, no one has a termimesh basket or a mesh bucket and you certainly don't need both!

I started this thread simply to see if anyone had some ideas on how to make BIAB a little more elegant. Same reason I started a thread the other day asking if anyone had any clever devices for cleaning.

I was hoping I might get some help on how to make a mesh basket easily and cheaply as it would make cleaning easy (mind you cleaning a bag out is just as easy as cleaning a mash tun out) and I was also hoping someone might have some ideas on a liding track mechanism as ones I looked at like you get on boats were a friggin' fortune.

How this thread has been so misinterpreted and taken off-topic bewilders me a bit.

Fleming (always great to hear form you), Arnie and others who have contributed to the original idea here - thank you. I still want to think on your posts more before getting back to you. Poppa Joe - show us your tripod.

Now to the main BIAB thread - agh!


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## AndrewQLD (16/8/07)

> Andrew, BIAB has definitley not done what you are implying above. The guide is the same. A skyhook is a $2.50 coach eye hook and is hardly high tech. Anyone considering using a weldless thermometer has been discouraged from it as the probe interferes with the bag. People just use, as I do, a hand-held thermometer. I don't even use a kettle tap. Also, no one has a termimesh basket or a mesh bucket and you certainly don't need both!



Hmm, Pat you seem to have misunderstood what I wrote, I didn't imply anything.
I'll try again, I was trying to make an observation and it obviously didn't come across to well.


BIAB was originally designed? as a way for kit/extract brewers to get into/try all grain brewing without having to buy and collect anymore equipment than they would be likely to have on hand or at home. If I am wrong in this then my whole observation becomes pointless.

Andrews Observation:
BIAB brewers are now, having gained more experience/practice, starting to look at tweaking their systems, adding bits and pieces ect, and generally doing what all brewers do to some extent, and improving their equipment. In other words making it more complicated :lol: 
And this thread proves that beyond any doubt. "BIAB Bling Ideas"
My comments were merely observations based on bits and pieces I have read in this and other BIAB threads, it was not meant to knock the method or the results.



> That is exactly how most brewers started out, a boiler/HLT and an esky, that's only two items.
> It seems to me that the BIAB system that was originally started as a ONE pot, SIMPLE system with the goal of encouraging brewers into the all grain arena. It's whole attraction was you didn't need to gather any special equipment to get started.


You chopped this bit out of the top of my quote, which I thought explained what I was thinking pretty well.


Cheers
Andrew


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## ArnieW (16/8/07)

[Rant mode ON]

It beats me why something so simple raises so many arguments ...

I mean, can't people complicate an idea if they want to?

And does everybody have to see something the same way?

I don't think understanding or misunderstanding the concept of BIAB is really going to make much of a difference once people raise a glass at the end of a brew session.

If Pat wants bling, then why not let him enjoy it? If you personally don't want bling, then don't worry about it, look somewhere else, or choose not to read. 

Going for bling on BIAB may be over-complicating, it may not be. But those who dare to invent, dream, experiment and even make mistakes are the ones who will make real progress, or at the very least enjoy the adventure.

Go for it BIABers! Go for it no chillers! Go for it those who don't give a stuff about hot side aeration!

[Rant mode OFF]

DISCLAIMER. I have never done a BIAB brew, although I wonder why not. I have never no-chilled, although I wonder what extra environmental footprint I've caused. I've never encouraged HSA, but who knows, I may well have danced with this devil without even knowing it. But I have made beer, just never inhaled


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## PistolPatch (16/8/07)

Just had a 'quick' beer with a fellow brewer in Freo - nice kolsch!

Looks like the thread is going to stay off-topic so I might as well go with the flow.

We had a quick yarn whilst having a beer in Freo as to how posts and people are so often mis-interpreted on forums. People often read too fast and obviously, on a brewing forum, often have too many beers. Not me though :blink: 

Andrew, sorry if I mis-interpreted your post. As I said to the brewer in Freo, you are one of the brewers I respect most and have always found to be helpful. I'm still mis-interpreting your post though and maybe I mis-worded the thread title. All I'm after is a better bag and a sliding rail. These are the only two things I want and probably shouldn't be called bling.

You are right in your assumptions about BIAB but I reckon you are wrong in how you are seeing the way BIAB is headed. This thread was intended just to be a bit of fun. Nowhere in the BIAB thread will you see active encouragement for people to bling up their BIAB. Occassionally I have actively encouraged ideas on this but they are just off the cuff posts just like this thread was meant to be an off the cuff thread - nothing serious.

The BIAB thread in itself has been a great learning thread for myself and many others thanks to you, other traditional brewers and BIABers themselves. We have explored things like mash outs for example. The stuff that guys posted on this I found really interesting. It's a great educational thread.

So have no fear Andrew, the BIAB thread hasn't changed. I can see how a casual glance at the thread may have lead you to believe that things were going astray but they are not. For example, the only person who even mentioned a built-in probe thermometer was recently and he was immediately advised against it.

I like simplicity and practicality. I also like hearing if anyone else has ideas. Personally I don't think there are many ways to bling up BIAB and personally it is not really something I am very interested in but often great ideas come from the left field such as when James Squire, a virgin brewer, first posed his all in one idea. Fleming, AndrewQld and many others helped make the idea turn into a reality.

So, I just started this thread after a few beers to mainly open a door for others that may be interested in bling. Many people like bling - I'm not really into it unless I see it having a sound logical practicality.

So Andrew, sorry if I have mis-interpreted your post. You know me well enough to realise that I would never do so without consideration. There are a few guys on this forum that I have great respect for and you are one of them.

*Most Importantly* I could find this thread dissapointing and discouraging and in some ways I do. It's now totally off-topic; it has been somewhat personally insulting; it's had illogical and misleading information put forward; it has defintely for the new guy cast way too many seeds of doubt and that is a real disservice to new brewers.

Despite all this, I'm very happy with this thread. It has revealed to me yet some more people that have the courage to make a difference. There have been several in this thread but I know at least one who specifically does not like attention drawn to himself so I'll draw myself a limit and only mention those posts I can see below as I write.

Thirsty I can't comment on you as you were the guy I mentioned in the para above  so deebee and ArnieW, thanks to you and the couple of others who have stood up. Strong people like you make a real difference to this world. I wish there were a lot more of all you guys.

If everyone was like you guys, not only would we brew better beer but we would have no world wars. Your thinking is very good.

I've always seen BIAB as a virgin field of fertile soil. Many people planted in it and several now have harvested a nice yield. Now, as in nature, we see seeds of doubt being cast and unfortunately these require a lot of work to subdue. People assume that the good harvest will win without effort but it doesn't work that way. Just the same as cancer in the human body will win if unchallenged and sometimes even when it isn't. Good things often require concentrated attention. Good to see that there are a few troops who can do that.

Spot ya,
Pat

P.S. Really sorry to the others here that I haven't mentioned


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## ant (17/8/07)

PistolPatch said:


> *snip*...If everyone was like you guys, not only would we brew better beer but we would have no world wars...


Brewers - making the world a safer place... reminds me of those old Oakley ads "AHB - thermonuclear protection".

Peace, love and brewing
Ant


*sigh* I miss beers in Freo.


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## AndrewQLD (17/8/07)

> So have no fear Andrew, the BIAB thread hasn't changed. I can see how a casual glance at the thread may have lead you to believe that things were going astray but they are not. For example, the only person who even mentioned a built-in probe thermometer was recently and he was immediately advised against it.



I'm glad to hear that the initial concept is still intact, and I *still* believe it is a great way to start All grain brewing.

To get this thread back on track Pat, here is a link posted by Doc in another thread Docs link, This should be all the bling bling you need :lol: 

Cheers
Andrew


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## MAH (17/8/07)

PistolPatch said:


> *Most Importantly* I could find this thread dissapointing and discouraging and in some ways I do. It's now totally off-topic; it has been somewhat personally insulting; it's had illogical and misleading information put forward; it has defintely for the new guy cast way too many seeds of doubt and that is a real disservice to new brewers.



Are you serious!

Do you really think Jayse et al telling people it's just as easy to build a mash tun is illogical and misleading?

Do you really think it's a disservice to suggest to new brewers that using one pot and a mash tun is just as simple as using one pot and a bag?

Do you really feel insulted because some people said why not just build a mash tun?



PistolPatch said:


> as in nature, we see seeds of doubt being cast and unfortunately these require a lot of work to subdue. People assume that the good harvest will win without effort but it doesn't work that way. Just the same as cancer in the human body will win if unchallenged and sometimes even when it isn't. Good things often require concentrated attention. Good to see that there are a few troops who can do that.



Good on you for having passion for your chosen method of brewing, but I think you've headed down the path of fanaticism.

Cheers
MAH


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## Zizzle (17/8/07)

MAH said:


> Good on you for having passion for your chosen method of brewing, but I think you've headed down the path of fanaticism.



FWIW, I agree with MAH.

I learnt BIAB directly from the man himself. I moved from BIAB to having bought an already setup mash tun. Not three vessels, just boiler & mash tun. With the tun I did the first run off into fermenter method mentioned.

Not easier or harder than BIAB, just different. No fiddling with lifting & squeezing a hot dripping bag (and I had a custom brew frame with sky hook). But instead lifting a tun with wort & grain from the floor to a table to allow run off (much easier IMHO). No syphoning, just pouring hot wort from the fermeter into the kettle (aware of HSA, just not scared of it until I taste it). And I do think cleaning out a tun is easier than cleaning out a bag.

I was happier with the beers that came out of the mash tun and continue to be.

I still think BIAB is a good & cheap way to get started with AG brewing and would do it again and recomment it to others. And sure, maybe some guys can make exceptional beers with BIAB, but I can't do it and I expect most other newbies can't either.

Making BIAB out to be flawless, so much easier & so much better than traditional methods does come across as irrational and fanatical, and does put people off and do the method a disservice. It has it's strength (up front cost), bit is shouldn't be promoted as flawless and all things to all people. 

There will always people who think this (and worse), but it's should not be seen as a slight or personal insult against those who use and promote the BIAB method. Seeds of doubt are good. Nothing is flawless, people should have to think and evaluate for themselves.

At the end of the day I think everyone here will agree that having more people AG brewing is good thing, no matter what method they use. Just don't try and jam your favourite method down our throats. Sideways. With a mallet.


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## tangent (17/8/07)

i'd love to hear from someone who's tried: 10xAG brews with bucket-in-bucket, 10xBIAB and 10x esky mashtun.
I still think my drilling technique and mayo bucket procurement skills, are better than my sewing technique and cake stand procurement skills.


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## weizenhiemer (17/8/07)

MAH said:


> Good on you for having passion for your chosen method of brewing, _but I think you've headed down the path of fanaticism._
> 
> Cheers
> MAH



Yeah, Its time to move on to the next level.Throw that bag in the bin and start making beer the _AGE_ old traditional way,instead of trying to convince others that you have revolutionised brewing.

Your method deserves to be recognised as an _esoteric cult_ form of brewing, but it's far from being a major revolution.Looking for bling to enhance it is a shallow attempt to make it fashionable and ultimately attracts the derision that you seem to find so offensive.

Show me how you can step mash or pull a decoction with BIAB and you may on the way to convincing me and others that its worth a go.

W.H.


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## kook (17/8/07)

weizenhiemer said:


> Show me how you can step mash or pull a decoction with BIAB and you may on the way to convincing me and others that its worth a go.
> 
> W.H.



I'm not a BIAB'er, but I can see that step mashes are very straightforward using the system. As it's a directly heated tun you simply turn the burner and stir till you reach your next step.

Decoction is another issue though. It's possible, but to pull a thick portion of the mash you'd need to use a strainer of some form.

Personally my concerns are more around the lack of flexibility of liquor/grist ratios, and the fact that it's quite ineffective to produce high gravity beers. Plus having fun with things like partigyle brewing seems a lot more difficult.


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## Steve (17/8/07)

I reckon this thread is well n truly hijacked for the BIABers. Why cant the past 20, 30 or whatever posts be discussed in the BIAB thread. Why cant you all leave this thread to the BIABers to discuss the ideas of the title of the thread. Each to their own I say. If they're making beer and they're enjoying it rather than going to spend 30 odd bucks on a case of VB good on em.
Cheers
Steve


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## weizenhiemer (17/8/07)

kook said:


> I'm not a BIAB'er, but _I can see that step mashes are very straightforward _using the system. As it's a directly heated tun you simply turn the burner and stir till you reach your next step.



Ya reckon??.Stirring with a bag in the way would be a PITA..."imHo"


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## Stuster (17/8/07)

weizenhiemer said:


> start making beer the _AGE_ old traditional way,instead of trying to convince others that you have revolutionised brewing.



Good to see someone keeping to the old ways. What sort of wood do you ferment in? Do you use a magic stick for the gods to bless the beer, or are you one of those new-fangled yeast people? I trust you are sticking with the right stuff, the gruit rather than that 'hop' stuff which causes sleepiness and impotence you know.

I'm with Steve. I'm not a BIABer, but it seems people are happy with it. Let's try to be constructive.


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## tangent (17/8/07)

shall we start a mash tun users register/church?


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## weizenhiemer (17/8/07)

Stuster said:


> Good to see someone keeping to the old ways. Do you use a magic stick for the gods to bless the beer,



Godisgoode!.........K.M.A


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## poppa joe (17/8/07)

I put BLING in my Plastic Boiler.......
A S/S CAKE STAND>>>>>>>  
PJ


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## Thirsty Boy (18/8/07)

weizenhiemer said:


> Yeah, Its time to move on to the next level.Throw that bag in the bin and start making beer the _AGE_ old traditional way,instead of trying to convince others that you have revolutionised brewing.
> 
> Your method deserves to be recognised as an _esoteric cult_ form of brewing, but it's far from being a major revolution.Looking for bling to enhance it is a shallow attempt to make it fashionable and ultimately attracts the derision that you seem to find so offensive.
> 
> ...



Strange, you seem to find it odd that people would find derision from you or anyone else offensive.. surely thats the whole point of derision? I can only assume that you also intend your statements to be derisive, and I am dutifully offended.

So to return the favour, here's some for you..

Of all the things that have been said about BIAB in this thread yours is about the easiest, weakest and saddest. Its the logic of Luddites and 6 year olds. And if thats the best you can do for a contribution to either side of an argument, I feel truly sorry for you.

Oh and by the way, I have step mashed every BIAB I have brewed, I have done a decoction, I have incorporated a sour mash, I have incorporated a cereal mash and on my latest batch I mash hopped and did a no-boil brew (berliner weiss)

So not only is your contribution to the argument pathetic... you are also just plain wrong.

Your nick is very appropriate, its pretty much a synonym for smart-arse; and indeed you are.

Thirsty


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## Thirsty Boy (18/8/07)

Enough of people with nothing real to contribute, and on to people who's opinions and criticisms are actually worth their bandwidth.

*Tangent* - It would be great to get the 10 of each from someone. I'm on my way on the BIAB front and well there on the eski front... dont know if I can bring myself to go the drilled bucket route, but one of these days I will probably have a run at a false bottom and fly sparge set-up. Just so I know what its all about.

*Kook* - Your summation of why stepping isn't hard is spot on. And of course you are right about the L:G ratios being essentially fixed. And you couldn't do Partigyle could you?? And I want to give that a shot as well, guess I'll be doing that brew on my 3 vessel system.

Decoctions are actually easier when you have the bag. You just grab one edge of it and pull it up, effectively shortening it and raising the grains to the top of the tun and even out of the liquid, then you scoop it out. I had to add liquid back.

I've brewed 2 truly high gravity BIABs and 1 stout that was a little on the stronger side. There was no issue at all with producing the beers. The efficiency dropped a little, but we are talking back from 80%+ to mid 70's (pre-boil) Not as good, but still well in the acceptable range of efficiencies a homebrewer could expect.
Cant vouch for the quality though.. the high grav beers are ageing and I wont be trying them for a good six months at least, and the stout hasn't even had a chance to carb up yet. I'm hoping to do a few more strong BIABs, because I want to test out the theory that long term stability might be an issue due to increased particulate in the kettle. Unfortunately... the results will have to be worth waiting for.

*Zizzle* - Thank god you posted. You might feel almost exactly the opposite way about the issue than I do, but at least you are a voice who actually has some real hands on experience to add to the argument... actually, if it was being had with you, it wouldn't be an argument; it would just be a discussion.

Thirsty


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## browndog (18/8/07)

Jeez, these BIAB threads are starting to remind me of another forum that was full of negativity. I'd like to offer a bit of advice to the knockers and the negative posters ruining these threads. If you are offended by the idea of BIAB or the enthusiasm of the people using it then* don't get involved in the threads* It is as simple as* not clicking on the thread when you see it*. I've never seen a thread about mash tun brewing where a BIABer has jumped in and told everyone that their system is better, so I would like to recommend* you leave them alone* they don't deserve this crap. If you want to &^%& someone off, then go outside and kick the dog, hopefully you will get bitten for your efforts.


Cheers

Browndog

Oh, and here's some bling fellas, it is a basket made out of termimesh type stainless. It is about 450mm high by 300 wide. I made it to put plugs and flowers in during the boil.


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## Steve (18/8/07)

browndog said:


> Jeez, these BIAB threads are starting to remind me of another forum that was full of negativity. I'd like to offer a bit of advice to the knockers and the negative posters ruining these threads. If you are offended by the idea of BIAB or the enthusiasm of the people using it then* don't get involved in the threads* It is as simple as* not clicking on the thread when you see it*. I've never seen a thread about mash tun brewing where a BIABer has jumped in and told everyone that their system is better, so I would like to recommend* you leave them alone* they don't deserve this crap. If you want to &^%& someone off, then go outside and kick the dog, hopefully you will get bitten for your efforts.
> Cheers
> 
> Browndog
> ...



here. here totally agree.
Cheers
Steve


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## Online Brewing Supplies (18/8/07)

browndog said:


> Jeez, these BIAB threads are starting to remind me of another forum that was full of negativity. I'd like to offer a bit of advice to the knockers and the negative posters ruining these threads. If you are offended by the idea of BIAB or the enthusiasm of the people using it then* don't get involved in the threads* It is as simple as* not clicking on the thread when you see it*. I've never seen a thread about mash tun brewing where a BIABer has jumped in and told everyone that their system is better, so I would like to recommend* you leave them alone* they don't deserve this crap. If you want to &^%& someone off, then go outside and kick the dog, hopefully you will get bitten for your efforts.
> Cheers
> 
> Browndog
> ...


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## Online Brewing Supplies (18/8/07)

Dam if only I could find the right button to push to reply to posts I would be a happy man.Any way I agree with the moderate people on this forum live and let live.We all have differing opions and thats the way it should be.But in the words of Kamal "How can people be so unkind".Lets not lose any more lateral or non lateral thinkers.Brew and be happy you can brew.Remember some one taught you.
Signed :a Lateral thinking "traditional" brewer.


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## troywhite (18/8/07)

Hey PP, 

I think you are as strange as all buggery, but I don't think you deserved the flaming you are getting in this thread.

The thread title says it all with BIAB sitting in there. If you aren't into BIAB then don't join in the convo I reckon.

(I'm not a BIABer but I had to say I support your decision to BIAB and the fun you were obviously trying to get out of this thread, which has now been body slammed.)


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## LovesToBrew (18/8/07)

a misunderstood man
many people, were his fans
but now he's gone
i did 3 brews, and my bag was torn
please come back
pistol patch, don't fall victim to their wise cracks!


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## Darren (18/8/07)

Thirsty Boy,

You seem to have over-looked the point. It is obvious that all BIAB brewers (including Pat) are re-inventing the wheel with a square  .

A single hole in the side of their pots would easily allow attachment of a small ring of copper or an "easy hooker" and allow for effective sparging with minimal unconverted starch into the boil. Then they could throw the bag away  

Same setup could be used for the boil  

I have always been derided as the eternal pessimist, but you my should be derided at the eternal optimist my friend.  

cheers

Darren


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## Murcluf (18/8/07)

There's an old saying in my neck of the woods " When the flag drops the BS stops" Perhaps those who like to shoot off at the lip, would be game enough to step up to the challenge of entering your finest into ANAWBS 2007. So you can show us how good you really are, unless you are threaten by the chance of being caned by a fermentation assistant or a BIAB'er. Also keep an eye out for the MIAB.

Humble pie will be served by the door marked exit, I'm having cold comfort on mine. Long Live PP!!!


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## ausdb (19/8/07)

PistolPatch said:


> OK guys, BIAB is due for some bling.
> 
> B) A Sliding Skyhook: It'd be great to be able to either lift the bag/basket and then once drained, slide it away from the kettle to be dumped in a bucket or whatever.



Apologies for the editing but instead of a skyhook why not try one of these?



Attached to the right sized chunk of concrete in your back yard and a suitably sized pot this would almost do a "Bulka Bag" of half a ton of Kirin Pale.

Or if it needs to be portable then go for one of these,


With the doovalacky on the left you could simultaneously lift two bags at once with fingertip balance control, imagine that tandem BIAB two Bulka Bags at once.

Thats what I call "Bling"


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## Thirsty Boy (19/8/07)

Darren said:


> Thirsty Boy,
> 
> You seem to have over-looked the point. It is obvious that all BIAB brewers (including Pat) are re-inventing the wheel with a square  .
> 
> ...



Sorry Darren, I'm not sure what you mean.. are you referring to the point you made in the main BIAB thread about trying to boil the mash grains and all? Or is it something else..

I think I know what you mean... but I'm not sure. If it is what I reckon, I think its actualy a pretty good idea.

Could you explain in a buit more detail. And maybe in the main BIAB thread.. this thread is a trainwreck and needs to be abandoned.

Cheers

Thirsty

PS: I for one usually appreciate your pessimism. It gives me the shits... but then I find myself thinking harder and more deeply about the things we are discussing; and I go out and hunt down information I might other wise have not worried about. I often disagree with you, but because of you I know more about brewing than otherwise I would. TB


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## Stuster (19/8/07)

Thirsty Boy said:


> PS: I for one usually appreciate your pessimism. It gives me the shits... but then I find myself thinking harder and more deeply about the things we are discussing; and I go out and hunt down information I might other wise have not worried about. I often disagree with you, but because of you I know more about brewing than otherwise I would. TB



+1 :super:


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## ArnieW (19/8/07)

Considering this thread has been hijacked a few too many times, please forgive this indulgence. I consider it necessary viewing for all those Johnny's who have been posting here...

Posting and you ... <_<


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## Enerjex (19/8/07)

that's been posted on here before ArnieW, didn't you watch the video


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## Aaron (19/8/07)

Murcluf said:


> Humble pie will be served by the door marked exit, I'm having cold comfort on mine. Long Live PP!!!


And here was me thinking this was a brewing technique. Turns out it is some kind of cult.


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## ArnieW (19/8/07)

Enerjex said:


> that's been posted on here before ArnieW, didn't you watch the video


Oops - oh well, worth re-stating then.


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## PistolPatch (22/8/07)

Zizzle said:


> Making BIAB out to be flawless, so much easier & so much better than traditional methods does come across as irrational and fanatical, and does put people off and do the method a disservice. It has it's strength (up front cost), bit is shouldn't be promoted as flawless and all things to all people.
> 
> Just don't try and jam your favourite method down our throats. Sideways. With a mallet.



Since my, 'last post,' it is only last night and tonight that I have had a chance to answer PM's and emails. No one seriously thought that my last post in the BIAB thread was actually my last post and it looks as though they were right! What a serious affront to my credibility!

Seriously though, have a think on the following because this _is_ my last post. After this, what more is there to say?

In the PM's and emails I have finally had a chance to send, the one theme was that my only regret about retiring from AHB was not responding to Zizzle's disgraceful comments above. So here's my last post which is slightly less full of grace than what I will always think of as my real last post which can be found somewhere in the BIAB thread.

Zizzle - Your post is an absolute disgrace. You brewed 6 BIABs electrically and I thought that the one I tasted was excellent. You complained in the BIAB thread about soapy flavours in your beer and long-term viability which I and others have not found or have actually proven the opposite. Several times, you have brought up the former when advantageous and each time, I have, and others have offered advice or asked questions to which you never responded.

This fact alone proves that open minds are existent but yours isn't one of them.

Now, you run a thread on automation - the anithesis of BIAB and TOTALLY unproven. Is it that that motivates your post that I have quoted or is your post fall-out from the night that you got horribly drunk and whined about Iraq and thought subsequently and irrationally that anyone who diagreed with you hated you?

I think a read through the BIAB thread will not answer that question but it will answer EVERY other slur that rednecks have made here.

You say, 'irrational and fanatical,' about one of the most rational and calm threads on AHB. It's a thread full of 'gentle' and/or enthusiastic brewing explorers. I have been the biggest contributor there in post counts I think, so if I withdraw, as I am doing, will you call all those other top brewers fanatical and irrational?

These are the same brewers who have consistently in that thread asked and welcomed criticism. I myself have gone out of my way to do side by side brews not with the aim of proving BIAB right or wrong but with an investigative viewpoint. Just ask the guys I've side-by-side brewed with.

Did you mention that Zizzle?

And the fact that I am still willing to do so?

Oh! And how could I forget that old PistolPatch wrote, 'A Guide to Mashing and Batch'-Sparging,' about 6 months after I had dis-continued traditional brewing? That guide was written in my usual passionate style. But you and the other negative contributors here forgot that contribution didn't you? That one should be air-locked as many of the questions I answer off-forum end up referring to that guide and it might balance up the fact that, until recently, the BIAB Guide was the only air-locked thread in that forum.

So, which one of you mash tun guys will ask for my other guide to be air-locked? It should be shouldn't it? Certainly nothing wrong with the way it is written...

But, would PP help a traditional brewer? And be passionate about doing so? Not according to you Zizzle and your redneck cohorts though I do it almost daily.

Can you or anyone else find a post that ever said that BIAB was 'flawless and so much better than traditional brewing?'

Such posts simply don't exist.

The BIAB thread has involved the most unpretentious group of brewers that you will ever meet - both traditional and now non-traditional. They are a quiet bunch of blokes who don't blow their own trumpet. They are just simple explorers that really have no attachment apart from brewing a nice beer.

I see myself as one of them but you rednecks do not - hence I retire. I doubt that you will knock, face on, any other BIAB brewer - after all, they are all just nice solid brewers.

Zizzle, for you and others to make references to fanaticism and cults is the most shameful thing I have EVER seen on AHB.

Anyone that makes statements like that on AHB (such as Aaron's above) should be totally discredited. People should stand up against guys like you but, who can in this case, unless they have read the whole BIAB thread? This is one of the reasons why there are summaries in the BIAB thread. Find another thread on this forum that has been as well laid out. There isn't one. That's the only fanatical side of BIAB you will ever see and that is due to me not BIAB or it's brewers.

While that is certainly not all I have to say, this IS my last post on AHB but I look forward to communicating with the great thinkers on this forum via email and I'll do my best to still contribute here via less public means such as the Wiki in all areas of brewing whether that be cleaning, BIAB or traditonal.

Spot ya to the good guys,
Pat

P.S. If you like my rambles, email me and I'll send you one now and then.
P.P.S. One last thought, No-Chill and anything similiar puts AHB up there as a world-first forum. When rednecks criticise without any basis of fact a new idea, they are not only hurting the brewing community, they are hurting Dane who started this forum. So, next time you want to say something non-factual, perhaps you should think about who it affects or at least donate some money - grrrrrrr.


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## Darren (22/8/07)

PP,

Since you are back on board, can you explain to me what a bag does more cheaply of effectively than a hole in the pot and something like has been posted by many in this thread

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...2740&st=120

cheers

Darren


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## MVZOOM (22/8/07)

Quite speechless. You guys are sinking lower and lower, why would you bother? What's next, you going to get a posse together and enact a 'bashing'?


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## Fents (22/8/07)

MVZOOM said:


> Quite speechless. You guys are sinking lower and lower, why would you bother? What's next, you going to get a posse together and enact a 'bashing'?



wot are you on about :huh: 

both sides throwing even insults from where im sitting h34r: 

Mind you im on the sideline with my popcorn and large coke as a spectator.


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## Hashie (22/8/07)

I don't like your chances of Pat replying Darren.

If I can give my 2 bobs worth...

BIAB isn't all about the bag, for me it is simply 'single vessel brewing'. Mash tun, HLT and kettle all in one. To achieve this you need a 'bag' or some other device to remove the grain.

Let's look at it real simple like, for some of the folk who are so hung up on running it down.

You heat your water (same as 3 vessel), you mash your grain (same as 3 vessel), you boil your wort (same as 3 vessel). But you do all this in ONE vessel by removing the grain via a bag. Get over it.

Simple really.


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## Lukes (22/8/07)

I don't bag brew but *I love to read a good rant on this site* at work (there have been some classics).  

IMO The best idea for bling would be a big medal or trophy that is testament to the concept being a good one for the brewer and judged a winner or even in the running (no pun intended) for the style.

So pick a style that suits the method, enter some comp's and win some cred with a bag brew and that should water down some of the critics. :beerbang: ​Winners are  .


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## Stuster (22/8/07)

This certainly seems to have riled people up. Be careful or this  might happen to you (or you might do this :blink: )



> Man Burns Down Trailer in Online Feud
> 
> By ANGELA K. BROWN
> Associated Press Writer
> ...



Pat, you know that many of us like your posts. "Really, [PP], if you are holding out for universal popularity, I'm afraid you will be in this cabin for a long time." No need to get riled up about it. It'd be great if you keep posting.

BIAB haters. Nothing to see here, move along now. If you don't like the thread, have a look at one you do. If there are no threads you like, it might be time to start one yourself.  

BIAB lovers, I think Lukes has a really good point. Enter some comps and prove it to the world. (Of course it won't really work like that. No chill beers doing well in comps proves that. Oh well. Still fun though.  )


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## troywhite (22/8/07)

Fents said:


> Mind you im on the sideline with my popcorn and large coke as a spectator.



Lol, same 
It's quite funny. Funny that people get so worked up in forums. You see it in every forum all across "teh interwebs". Some people bag out other people. Bagged out people eventually spit it and vow never to return. Life goes on. 

This forum sits at the extremely loose end of moderation. Other forums I frequent sit at the very tight end of moderation. Maybe this site needs to be moderated a little bit tighter just so that off-topic posts (like this one, d'oh) don't end up in a big flame fest. Although if that happened Fent's and I would need to take our popcoirn somewhere else )

Troy


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