# Sweet taste? Help!!!



## Skillz (25/12/20)

Iam having a constant issue with my beer coming out overly sweet.
Could you please look over my last recipe and see if anything stands out.
I have taken alot of precautions to lower oxygen to the point that this beer wasn't even dry hopped and then all the standard low oxygen options were followed to packaging.
I suppose the main question is should i ditch all other malts or is it somthing else?




Thanks in advance.


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## philrob (25/12/20)

What do you use to measure your temperature? Odds on you are mashing at a higher temperature than you think. MHB has frequently posted you need to check your thermometer against a laboratory grade one. It would be the first thing I would check, as your recipe looks fine.


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## Skillz (25/12/20)

Using a inkbird i have calibrated against a thermapen


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## MHB (25/12/20)

philrob is right, that would be my first thought. There is a lot of info missing that would help so some of the following might be redundant, depending on your processes.
The recipe looks OK not too much Xal (~2%) not too much Munich...
First up is - if your beer is too sweet mash cooler, say 2oC, That presupposes its well mixed, you are mixing water and malt in a manner that isn't killing off most of your Beta Amylase. That you are mashing long enough (60 minutes+)
The rest of the answers come down to making sure all the other conditions are right. Drop the Bi-Carb in your water
all it can do is raise the pH. Then you add a bunch of other stuff to lower the pH, not making sense.

Your boil can play a role, good rolling boil for an hour is really important, short boils leave lots of crud in the beer.
Some persistent infections can give a sweet flavour, as can low levels of Diacetyl...

I would be adding the Campden to the cold strike water so its there as the water heats, gives the Metabisulfite time to react with the Chlorine and for any excess to vent off, I'm a little leery of having too much SO2 in the water when I mash in, its very reactive and can form some strange chemicals.

What would be more helpful, would be your finished beer figures for this brew, lets people see the real attenuation and efficiency among other factors. Being there would be the biggest assist, but more complete mash/boil times, measured wort pH... will have to do.
Mark


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## Skillz (25/12/20)

Thanks for the reply.
I only tried the bicarb as the local home brew guy suggested it but I really didn't see the point either.
Was a 60min mash and 60 min boil, have included brew stats, was off on numbers by a fair way this brew.
I'm starting to suspect and infection of some sort as my last 2 ipa's and this have had the same sweet taste.
I did do a stout that had turned out well though.


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## kadmium (25/12/20)

Skillz said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> I only tried the bicarb as the local home brew guy suggested it but I really didn't see the point either.
> Was a 60min mash and 60 min boil, have included brew stats, was off on numbers by a fair way this brew.
> I'm starting to suspect and infection of some sort as my last 2 ipa's and this have had the same sweet taste.
> I did do a stout that had turned out well though.View attachment 119723


As MHB said, if you're mashing too high it can lead to a sweet finish. The other issue may be an infection, as your attenuation seems OK.

Bi-Carb will raise the pH of the mash, which counteracts what you are trying to achieve. Who ever it was at the shop who told you to add it should be avoided in the future in my opinion. Trust me, I'm a stranger on the internet.

But seriously avoid adding it in my opinion. 

As for the sweet taste, can you provide some more information to help us determine the issue?

Can you describe the taste? Is it buttery? Is it cloying? Is it a sugary sweetness or an over ripe fruit type sweetness?

Does the taste occur early on and diminish, or does it increase over time? 

How soon do you notice the taste? Straight after fermenting? After a period of time in the keg? Do you keg or bottle?


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## MHB (25/12/20)

Pretty much where I'm heading to.
Apparent attenuation of, well I get closer to 76% than the 75% listed indicates that the wort is normally fermentable.

In addition to the flavours kadmium asked about, look for associated smells to, they can often be a good clue to what is goin


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## MaggieO (26/12/20)

Mash cooler. Makes a more fermentable wort.

You can make some small, four liter test batches trying different mash temps and see what happens. Shame to make 20 liter test batches.

You could try dropping 500g of malt and replacing it with 400g of sugar. This will thin the body though, slightly. Mashing cooler will thin the body too.


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## NattyJ (26/12/20)

Recipe looks fine
Your OF/FG figures are fine so it has definitely completed fermentation.

How 'sweet' is this if its the sweetness.

Trial solution suggested already. Mash down lower e.g. 65 or even slightly lower.

Additionally do a batch with No crystal. Some people find the sweetness of crystal too much. This will effect colour etc, so look at mashing temp first.

Maybe even experimental and try a super low mash temp (63) to compare to your usual batch using the same recipe and see what difference that makes for you.

Just an idea. In the mean time I'm sure the brew you made is still nice and enjoyable!


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## scomet (26/12/20)

G’day Skillz, my 2c fwiw, your fg is quite good your hops are not what I use much. Sweetness is subjective :-} I like my beer dry and bitter, the malt bill looks ok.

Working with what you’ve got -
I would consider not having a mash-out and keep the 'top heat' to 67C
Getting the fg down to 1005 would be a target
Yeast management. I would pitch 2 pkts and be aware of your pitching temperatures
Sanitation is critical to getting lower fg, whatever you do do it twice as well
Upping the bitterness slightly? its all down to your taste buds…….


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## kadmium (26/12/20)

scomet said:


> G’day Skillz, my 2c fwiw, your fg is quite good your hops are not what I use much. Sweetness is subjective :-} I like my beer dry and bitter, the malt bill looks ok.
> 
> Working with what you’ve got -
> I would consider not having a mash-out and keep the 'top heat' to 67C
> ...


In my opinion FG isn't a real indicator of residual sweetness nor 'mouth feel' from what I have found. 1.005 FG doesn't mean a lot without knowing the OG or the malt bill. 

I have had NEIPAs that finished at 1.016 and were far from "sweet" and Czech Pilsner according to BJCP should finish 1.013 to 1.017 and they are arguably the king of clean crisp lagers. So really just saying "target 1.005" doesn't mean much because it may mean his yeast only attenuates 40% or might need to attenuate 110% depending on OG. Just my thoughts.


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## scomet (27/12/20)

kadmium said:


> 1.005 FG doesn't mean a lot without knowing the OG or the malt bill.


Which we do... I was referring to his recipe


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## MHB (27/12/20)

sorry not adding up, unless I'm missing something




If he went from 1.054 to 1.005 we are talking 90% apparent attenuation, not really likely with US-05.

And why would you recommend skipping a mash out? 
The efficiency is lower than I would be happy with already, not doing a mashout wont help that at all.
Mark


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## scomet (27/12/20)

He went from 1054 to 1013 hence why I suggested getting it a little lower, not hard to do with a good process

Lots of articles / recipes I have read recently suggest this top heat, I do it with all my 'bitter styles' it seems to preserve a certain taste

I thought his efficiency was a bit low glancing at it, I only comment on systems like my own re % this and that, maximising your own process to get the most taste…..


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## golfandbrew (27/12/20)

Do you have a fermentation schedule you can post too?


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## Skillz (28/12/20)

It is a cloying toffee taste to me, it may be i just don't enjoy the crystal malts taste as when I do a smash beer I seem to enjoy it more for a everyday beer.
Was fermented at 19c for 4 days then taken up 1c a day to 22c then cold crashed for 36hours at 1c.


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## MHB (28/12/20)

It's pretty much a given that a smash beer wont have any crystal (single malt and single hop), being base malt only.
The ~2% crystal you have in the recipe wont be having all that much of a flavour impact, well not in the direction of being all that toffy caramel sweet, more a colour adjustor. The same for the Munich, there isn't enough there to dominate your flavour profile.
The more you say the more I suspect its a process problem, largely I think its likely you are killing off a lot of your Beta Amylase, could be just how you add your malt and water together. How you are measuring your strike water temperature (unstirred water can be a lot hotter at the top than the bottom - would depend on where its measured). If all the usual good brewing practice are being followed there isn't anything else that's too obvious.

There remains the issue of infection, I have seen a meter long piece of beer line that had good beer going in one end and muck coming out the other, literally that quickly. The inside was full of some nasty biofilm that was flavouring beer as it went past.
Might be well worth going through your system very carefully, including the dispense system, taste the beer at every point (out of fermenter, out of keg, from tap, look at transfer lines....)
You mentioned a stout that came out OK, was it treated the same as your other beers? any differences in the process might point up where problems are coming from.
Mark


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## Skillz (28/12/20)

Thanks Mark
I do a full volume biab I measure the temp with a temp controller in a thermowell a few inches from the bottom and always stir and measure with my thermapen at the top. I stir at the 20min mark when I take my mash ph sample and then once more at another 20mins or so.
As you say that the little amount of spec grains I added wouldn't add up to what I'm experiencing I'm leaning toward the infection.
I have had my system in its current state including lines for 2 or 3 years, I'm pretty ocd so I think I clean and sanitise pretty well but will do a deep clean and line change out.
The stout is probably just hiding the flavour as it is a cherry ripe stout with a fair bit going on.
Thanks for everyone's input.


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## MHB (2/1/21)

scomet said:


> G’day Skillz, my 2c fwiw, your fg is quite good your hops are not what I use much. Sweetness is subjective :-} I like my beer dry and bitter, the malt bill looks ok.
> 
> Working with what you’ve got -
> I would consider not having a mash-out and keep the 'top heat' to 67C
> ...



I was hoping someone else would pick up on this and ask some questions.
Specifically the idea of not mashing out, I would like to see where this is coming from



scomet said:


> He went from 1054 to 1013 hence why I suggested getting it a little lower, not hard to do with a good process
> 
> Lots of articles / recipes I have read recently suggest this top heat, I do it with all my 'bitter styles' it seems to preserve a certain taste
> 
> I thought his efficiency was a bit low glancing at it, I only comment on systems like my own re % this and that, maximising your own process to get the most taste…..


Did ask in the thread but no real information was provided.
I cant see how it would help anyone to avoid a mashout, in fact everything I can think of says the reverse.
It is possible to create conditions where the hotter you got your mash the more tannins (well Polyphenols) you would extract but that would require very poor water chemistry and the mash pH would be way over the ideal range.
Under good basic brewing conditions it isn't making any sense at all, unless I'm missing something, so if anyone can point to a good reason for running off cool please bring it on.
Mark


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## scomet (2/1/21)

My comments were initially regarding what Skillz wanted to achieve in his question of reducing his overly sweet beer.

By having a low temperature mash (64 to 69) with no mash-out you get a very fermentable wort. I still sparge but only at Top Heat, you get a slightly lower Og and a nice and dry Fg, long mash long boil. Quite a few breweries do this to certain of their beers I have read this on a number of Yorkshire breweries. It gives a certain taste to the beer, which is why I brew, that I like…. putting a few oats in too. Works a treat with some pale Ales and Bitters


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## mje1980 (2/1/21)

I also like beers on the dry side and often mash in the low 60’s for an hour before lifting the malt pipe, sparging with cold water, then recirculating for 10 mins, let the malt pipe drain and then boil. I’ve done a lot of beers this way and haven’t noticed any downside that I’m aware of.


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## wide eyed and legless (2/1/21)

Skillz said:


> Iam having a constant issue with my beer coming out overly sweet.
> Could you please look over my last recipe and see if anything stands out.
> I have taken alot of precautions to lower oxygen to the point that this beer wasn't even dry hopped and then all the standard low oxygen options were followed to packaging.
> I suppose the main question is should i ditch all other malts or is it somthing else?
> ...


I had a batch of beer came out overly sweet, checked the temperature probe on my Guten was 5 C out! I check the temperature now prior to each brew day. Another thing I have been reading about of late, is dough in temperature, something worth taking into consideration.








Understanding Enzymes - Brew Your Own


Many homebrewers find this question confusing, which is hardly surprising, since many commercial brewers don’t appear to truly understand it either! It is important to think of the mash as two distinct




byo.com


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## MHB (2/1/21)

scomet said:


> Snip
> By having a low temperature mash (64 to 69) with no mash-out you get a very fermentable wort. I still sparge but only at Top Heat, you get a slightly lower Og and a nice and dry Fg, long mash long boil. Quite a few breweries do this to certain of their beers I have read this on a number of Yorkshire breweries. It gives a certain taste to the beer, which is why I brew, that I like…. putting a few oats in too. Works a treat with some pale Ales and Bitters





mje1980 said:


> I also like beers on the dry side and often mash in the low 60’s for an hour before lifting the malt pipe, sparging with cold water, then recirculating for 10 mins, let the malt pipe drain and then boil. I’ve done a lot of beers this way and haven’t noticed any downside that I’m aware of.



Fundamentally doesn't make any sense at all. Don't take offence but I'm pretty sure there is something wrong with the thinking that got you to this point. If its something you have read please tell me where I for one would like to know where this is coming from.

Ok you want dryer beer, no problem you can get apparent attenuations >100% with a fairly intensive mash regime.
The two main enzymes Alpha and Beta Amylase aren't the only ones that will be playing a role, there is at least one Protease and a type of Glucanase that can both still be slightly active up to the Beta peak around 62-63oC. They aren't going to be making a huge difference to your beer but might be thinning it out a bit.
Mostly we need to look at the Amylases
About the driest beer you can make would come from something like a 120 minute mash at the beta peak, problem is you would probably have a fair amount of unconverted starch and there is a very good chance that you would have a blue wort (not normal to iodine) you would know because when you start the boil it will foam like a mad thing.
The one thing that may help you is that there is a lot of Alpha Amylase in the wort and as you heat to a boil it will act on the starch, if you are heating fairly slowly (<say 0.5-0.75oC/Minute) it will have time to degrade most of the starch. Wont help with your yield though, that's guarantied to be lower than expected.

Mash at a compromise temperature usually that 65-67oC and you get enough Alpha activity to provide more sites for the beta to act on and its not so hot that the beta is all killed of before it does its work.

Two points that may help.
Once starch is degraded into fermentable sugars, you cant undo that later in the mash. Means if you do a reasonably long cool mash that fermentable sugar will still be in the wort, so a step up in temperature wont mean less fermentable sugars.
Second is that Alpha Amylase can and will make fermentable sugars to. A long mash at Alpha peak will not only degrade all the soluble starch giving a higher yield but will make more both fermentable and non fermentable sugars.
OK the wort in total will be a bit less fermentable but if you aren't making extra dry you really don't want an FG under 1.000

I think you will get more of better beer if you do a step mash. Apart from the fact that there is more extract the hotter your wort is (<80oC) the more fluid it so the faster and cleaner it drains and sparges. The same applies all the way to the boiling point its just that over 80oC its hard to control the extraction of husk tannins.

I suspect that you are flirting with one group of problems to avoid another, the better answer is to understand both and take the benefits of each while ducking the problems they can cause.
Mark

The article linked by WEAL is good
As is this one


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## mje1980 (2/1/21)

I don’t brew every beer like this. Saison is one I like to do this for, often 90mins at low 60’s and session beers. More “normal” beers get a short 72c rest but still no “mash out”. Im happy with those beers as well.

Next batch though, I’ll bring the mash up to 76c and see. Ive been brewing a while and I used to do a mash out but tried not doing one and honestly didn’t pick up any difference.


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## golfandbrew (2/1/21)

Originally I suspected diacetyl as the issue and reading back through again I think that is more likely the case than a mash regimen. I dismissed diacetyl because it looked like he did a d-rest when he provided his ferment schedule, but seven days total with a slow rise to 22 and the high FG has me going back to Diacetyl as the cause again. Some people will perceive diacetyl as butterscotch which the OP could be interpreting as "toffee". Both are sweet after all so I don't think this a big stretch of the imagination. It looks like he is bottling so the warming of the bottles for carbonation could be what is causing the diacetyl to surface. 

If it were me the first thing I would change is how I manage the fermentation. There's no need for a slow rise to a d-rest that I am aware of. When you think the beer is ready for the d-rest let it go there or take it there straight away and don't cold crash until you have checked the FG and are confident the beer is finished.


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## yankinoz (3/1/21)

I'll just address mash temps. 

I found steps handy when I had doubts about my thermometer. If you can gradually raise the temp without too much trouble, start very low, say, at 60, for 30 minutes, slowly raise to 62-63 for 20 or 30, then go to 65 or 66, even finish with a dextrinisation rest at 70-72.


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## MHB (3/1/21)

There is an old but under used mashing method that I have always found interesting.
Mash in around 40oC and ramp to just under 80-oC at a rate of rise ~0.5oC/minute.
Takes you through all the enzyme peaks slowly enough for them to do their thing about as well as they are going to.

These days with a decent PID controller or even just a properly sized element it would be a piece of cake.
Would be a good idea to have a constantly stirred mash of a pumped RIMS/HERMS type system to make sure everything heats up evenly.

Diacetyl rests have always been a bit of a WAFTAM for mine, you only need a DA rest if you have a DA problem, you will only ever have a DA problem if you mismanage your yeast, so for mine the answer isn't a DA rest its better yeast management. Sure if you are making a big Lager do a VDK test and if there is any do a DA. Just remember its a remedial measure not necessarily a standard part of fermentation.
There are some very persistent and often hard to get rid of bacteria that will produce diacetyl they love to imbed in plastic (often the lines to the tap). Choosing lines with Nylon internals will help with control, as its a much smoother surface that is harder for the bacteria to imbed in, they also clean a lot easier.
Mark

PS
yankinoz
See post #2, love a dollar for each time I have said every brewer should have a decent reference thermometer that you can trust and use it to test all your sensors.
Mark


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## yankinoz (3/1/21)

MHB said:


> There is an old but under used mashing method that I have always found interesting.
> Mash in around 40oC and ramp to just under 80-oC at a rate of rise ~0.5oC/minute.
> Takes you through all the enzyme peaks slowly enough for them to do their thing about as well as they are going to.
> 
> ...


Mark--Good advice, but I BIAB and only use a very good thermometer, calibrated against freezing and boiling. I had doubts about an earlier one in the middle range.

The old method you mention sounds interesting, though the lower temps should not do much in well-converted malts. I'm a fan of Hochkurz mashes, and not just in German styles.

Dan


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## MHB (3/1/21)

Its funny people talk about Alpha and Beta Amylase, occasionally Glucanase and Protease, but there are 30 odd identified enzymes that have very measurable effects across the mashing temperature range (sic 40-80oC).
A lot of them aren't much use in a standard isothermal or stepped mash, but you see lots of effect in a decoction mash.
Typically a decoction will have a higher recovery of extract, finish at lower FG, taste better... but they take longer and use more energy. Many of the changes are caused by enzymes that we normally ignore getting a chance to have a go. Big collection of tradeoffs, me I got a Braumeister mostly 5 step programed infusion starting at 20oC where I do all my water chemistry, then let it rip.
Not right/wrong just a bunch of choices and choosing a path that gets you there. Mind you knowing what is going on is always a help in planning your process.
Mark


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## Skillz (12/2/21)

Iam now pretty confident in my process and as the beer has not changed at all over time I am going to go with the theory that I was given 400g of crystal instead of the light Munich.


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## reddog (14/2/21)

Can you please update us when you make a batch with new malt.


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## Skillz (14/2/21)

Did a Neipa a few weeks ago, turned out great and is all gone. Only difference is I did an 11litre batch using a corny keg as the fermenter. 8g litre dry hops, no lose of hop aroma of flavour over the month.


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## Skillz (14/2/21)

I just took this pic of the pale and its 56 days old.
No off flavours that I would say, just overly sweet/caramel.
My mates love it but I'm not a fan, pretty convinced the malts got stuffed up.


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## frosty3 (17/2/21)

MHB said:


> Fundamentally doesn't make any sense at all. Don't take offence but I'm pretty sure there is something wrong with the thinking that got you to this point. If its something you have read please tell me where I for one would like to know where this is coming from.
> 
> Ok you want dryer beer, no problem you can get apparent attenuations >100% with a fairly intensive mash regime.
> The two main enzymes Alpha and Beta Amylase aren't the only ones that will be playing a role, there is at least one Protease and a type of Glucanase that can both still be slightly active up to the Beta peak around 62-63oC. They aren't going to be making a huge difference to your beer but might be thinning it out a bit.
> ...


 
Hey Mark.
If I mashed for 10hrs @ 65 while I was at work. Would this explain why my beer finished at 1.004 (OG 1.051) when Brewfather calculated it at 1.012. Because the longer chains got broken down so much from a long mash?


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## MHB (17/2/21)

I think it just might, The last 6-7 hours probably wouldn't be doing too much but the first 3-4 will dry it out.
Mark


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