# Golden Syrup - Question



## tangent (14/1/07)

oooops - almost grabbed the wrong one in a hurry! :lol: 

I was going to add it to the start of the boil but i sparged for too long and will have to boil for a bit longer
meanwhile my FWH POR will be making my CPA clone further and further past 22IBUs
i thought the additional gravity would help hinder the IBU's but, IT SMELLS SO DAMN GOOD!
Oh man that's REAL golden syrup!
I want to add it to my cube with the flame out hops (no-chilling, shhhh don't tell anyone h34r: ) to preserve the aroma. 

*Is L&T Golden Syrup inverted enough to add to the wort that late in the boil that it misses it all together??*


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## Ross (14/1/07)

tangent said:


> *Is L&T Golden Syrup inverted enough to add to the wort that late in the boil that it misses it all together??*



Add as late as you like - no problem  .

cheers Ross


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## Kai (14/1/07)

I think you could add the same amount of plain sugar at the end of the boil without any difficulty. I don't think the inversion matters that much.


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## tangent (14/1/07)

it is 8.5% of the fermentables though.


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## JSB (14/1/07)

Tangent,

Mate - wheeer'ed ya getit

Cheers
JSB


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## wee stu (14/1/07)

JSB said:


> Tangent,
> 
> Mate - wheeer'ed ya getit
> 
> ...



Some local (Adelaide) Foodlands have it - try the one at Castle Plaza, Edwardstown for starters - that's where I get mine.


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## tangent (14/1/07)

foodland, but one day it was on special, so i bought 2! 

edit - go for a challenge and wrestle the rude old italian ladies at henley beach rd, torrensville, not the ones at easy old castle plaza 
(i like castle plaza, it's got a bottlo)


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## Kai (14/1/07)

tangent said:


> foodland, but one day it was on special, so i bought 2!




and some hot pickle

i honestly do not think you'd notice a difference even wth it being 8.5% of the fermentables. I think it's a holdover from when sugar was 50% of the fermentables and the ferment was not hardly roses.


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## tangent (14/1/07)

i tried to make conditions cozy for yeasties so i'm thinking they shouldn't have too much of a hard time. 
i'm planning on using a captured CPA yeast with an addition of nottingham after racking to help drop it a few more points.

edit- and that chilli pickle is awesome. caraway sourdough toast with speck, eggs, chilli pickle and cheese. Oh yeah. Duffman would need a tall glass of Hefe after a breakfast like that on a Sunday morning.


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## Kai (14/1/07)

I doubt they'd have a hard time, there is still plenty of nutrient from the malt and even uninverted I reckon those sugars are very easily accessible.

CPA I find will hit 75-80% apparent attenuation depending on grist and mash regime.


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## Screwtop (14/1/07)

tangent said:


> i tried to make conditions cozy for yeasties so i'm thinking they shouldn't have too much of a hard time.
> i'm planning on using a captured CPA yeast with an addition of nottingham after racking to help drop it a few more points.
> 
> edit- and that chilli pickle is awesome. caraway sourdough toast with speck, eggs, chilli pickle and cheese. Oh yeah. Duffman would need a tall glass of Hefe after a breakfast like that on a Sunday morning.




Will be in SA for a month in April/May, your place for breakky sounds the GO.


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## tangent (14/1/07)

if i had my way Screwtop, that'd be my brekkie and dinner 24/7 (maybe some smoked Atlantic salmon and capers as well, but that'd really be twisting my arm)

Even though the wort is cooling now, i'm thinking that to replicate speiseing(sp?) the bottles or keg for secondary carbonation, an addition of T&L syrup infused with POR would be a good thing. I dry-hopped my hot and melting cube (? this is normal and fine & dandy no-chillers??) with 1gpl of POR and I've gotta admit Brauluver Dave, it is a nice hop when used for good instead of megaswill. it smells awesome(ish) if you can gag away the memories of Anything Draught.

one of my biggest blunders today was my tightarsedness 
i adjusted the recipe with my software so it'd use almost exactly 1 can of GS.
trouble was it worked out to a volume of 27L
i usually either make 20L or 30L batches and screwed up the sparge amount


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## Darren (14/1/07)

Not sure i understand, but I hope ithe syrup doesn't fall to the bottom of your cube and stay there under the break/yeast cake.

cheers

Darren


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## Kai (14/1/07)

tangent said:


> I dry-hopped my hot and melting cube (? this is normal and fine & dandy no-chillers??) with 1gpl of POR



It's grouse, but I wouldn't call it dry hopping. You're throwing the hops into hot wort, but there's no room for any aroma to escape, and no cutoff of extraction from racking to kettle. I guess it is most equivalent to a flameout addition then lidding the kettle and waiting 15-30 minutes for whirlpool and CF chilling.

Someone has called it LWH (last wort hopping), a term I like to use.


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## Adamt (14/1/07)

The non-flow hopback?


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## Kai (14/1/07)

The static hopback might be a good way of looking at it, yes.


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## tangent (14/1/07)

yeah, like a melting nowhere-to-go hop back. a little bit of smell came out... and it was good.

Darren, when i added the GS it sank to the bottom of the kettle and started to growl like an old dog, so i stirred it up pretty quickly. But yes, my original idea was to add it to the (melting) cube. It did get a bit of a tip around the place to coat all (melting) walls and also, I threw it in a bath of cold water, thereby negating all water saving benefits of no-chill (watered the plants with it)


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## Screwtop (15/1/07)

Darren said:


> Not sure i understand, but I hope ithe syrup doesn't fall to the bottom of your cube and stay there under the break/yeast cake.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Darren, do you think the yeast would ignore the Syrup, would they feel it was, er, Beneath Them


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## jayse (17/1/07)

Let us know how this beer comes up and if its even drinkable because the ESB i made with it at 5% although drinkable was not much of a drop. The flavour is quite strong and certainly didn't give me what I was expecting from my research.
I don't think I'll be using it again anyway, maybe I just can't brew to start with but thats another matter. :blink: 


Cheers
Jayse


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## Darren (17/1/07)

Screwtop said:


> Darren, do you think the yeast would ignore the Syrup, would they feel it was, er, Beneath Them




Screwtop,

Just saw this. I think the yeasties need the sugar to be dissolved in water to allow them to ferment it.

I imagine the syrup would fall to the bottom and stick like golden syrup does.

Also as the break material and exhausted yeast fell to the bottom of the fermenter it would effectively cover the syrup therefore not allowing any convection currents to dissolve it to fermentable percentages.

cheers

Darren


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## Screwtop (17/1/07)

Darren said:


> Screwtop,
> 
> Just saw this. I think the yeasties need the sugar to be dissolved in water to allow them to ferment it.
> 
> ...




Ahh Say, Ahh Say, it was a JOKE SON!


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## warrenlw63 (17/1/07)

Darren said:


> Just saw this. I think the yeasties need the sugar to be dissolved in water to allow them to ferment it.



Explains carbonation drops. :blink: 

Darren surely the near boiling wort in the cube would dissolve the syrup in much the same manner sugar dissolves in a cup of tea/coffee?

Is this some more come in spinner?

Edit: I'm assuming that Tangent is doing no chill?

Warren -


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## Screwtop (17/1/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Explains carbonation drops. :blink:
> 
> Darren surely the near boiling wort in the cube would dissolve the syrup in much the same manner sugar dissolves in a cup of tea/coffee?
> 
> ...



If you examine bottle yeast under a microscope at 800 mag you will notice the ones fed on carbonation drops have broken teeth.


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## warrenlw63 (17/1/07)

:lol: :lol: 

Warren -


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## tangent (17/1/07)

2L of starter smelling a beaut.

I did do my 1st no-chill. Devolution of my brewing technique. I like the hop back aspect but the whole jerry melting and sagging didn't really give me much more faith in the process. However, i was planning on adding the entire contents of the T&L GS to the jerry and drop hot wort on it at speed. It certainly would have mixed up. I think Darren is just assuming that my brewing style is a little more subdued and careful.

Due to Adelaide temps and my lack of forward planning in the ice dept. this brew has been cooking at 24C for a few hours here and there between ice changes so I hope it's not too overpowering so I can taste the syrup (or not) for myself.

The original CPA must have white cane sugar added to the kettle because this stuff seems to add way too much colour and (delicious) aroma.

My original question still stands, does "partially inverted" sugar need to be inverted further by the boil to avoid the nasty side effect flavour? (from memory, invertase?) and if so, how long does it need to be boiled?


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## Kai (17/1/07)

My answer is still I doubt it


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## Darren (17/1/07)

Is the syrup boiled in production? If it is, then the invertase would be destroyed. 


cheers

Darren

PS, Cant imagine them getting that thick without boiling


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## Kai (17/1/07)

I assumed Tangent was worrying about the invertase produced by the yeast.


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## dicko (17/1/07)

tangent said:


> View attachment 11046
> 2L of starter smelling a beaut.
> 
> I did do my 1st no-chill. Devolution of my brewing technique. I like the hop back aspect but the whole jerry melting and sagging didn't really give me much more faith in the process. However, i was planning on adding the entire contents of the T&L GS to the jerry and drop hot wort on it at speed. It certainly would have mixed up. I think Darren is just assuming that my brewing style is a little more subdued and careful.
> ...



Hi Tangent,
I have never used L and T syrup but I have used invert sugar that I do myself.
With my current CPA I did the required amount of sugar in 1 litre of water with a pinch of citric acid and boiled it separately for 25 mins or until it just started to colour.
I tipped the lot into the boil at the 30 min mark (60 min boil) and let it do its thing.
I tasted the wort from the cube today after I had let it sit at shed temps for two days ( kinda like a dyacetyl rest) and it is VEEEERY close to a CPA in colour and taste, even without carbonation. It was in the fridge during the hot day on Tuesday just gone.
I am going to try some in a JSOAA clone by boiling it a bit longer to caralemise the sugar a bit more and see how it goes as well.
Cheers


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## tangent (18/1/07)

Kai was spot on with the yeast. 1.008FG

Colour isn't too dark which is what I was worried about.
Tastes good from the hydro - not much of a golden syrup taste or smell. just smells like the bottom of a warm stubbie of CPA


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## Darren (18/1/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Explains carbonation drops. :blink:
> 
> Darren surely the near boiling wort in the cube would dissolve the syrup in much the same manner sugar dissolves in a cup of tea/coffee?
> 
> ...




I though it was a joke!

Warren, no come in spinner. Just finished a cup of coffee then that sat around for half an hour or so. Plenty of undissolved sugar in the bottom although it was boiling and "stirred"  

cheers

Darren

PS I still don't understand the invertase. I would have assumed it was an enzyme added to the the "sugar" to invert it without requiring acids and heat.
If it is an enzyme produced by the yeast, how will boiling help?

cheers

Darren


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## tangent (18/1/07)

that's what I was worried about Darren.


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## Darren (18/1/07)

Tangent,

I think that the invertase used to invert the sugar at the refinery is isolated from yeast. Not your run-of-the-mill ordinary yeast either!
This source of invertase will most likely be denatured during syrup processing

I cant see up-regulation of invertase from your ferment yeast being a problem.

cheers

Darren


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## tangent (18/1/07)

i'm seeing your lips move but I can't understand what you're saying....
http://www.springerlink.com/content/p1716742062v72h2/
i've been reading stuff but I still don't get a solid explanation.


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## Mr Bond (18/1/07)

I read, talked netsearched and even e-mailed coopers for info.
Coopers replied that they use liquid sucrose (not inverted).
Invertingsucrose by adding citric acid splits sucrose into fructose ,and dextrose from my research.
I came to the lazy arsed conclusion that it was just easier to use Dextrose(a monohydrate) toA:add alchohol,and B:lighten the body in a cooperesque style without worrying about inversion.
It worked for my tastebuds.


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## Darren (18/1/07)

tangent said:


> i'm seeing your lips move but I can't understand what you're saying....
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/p1716742062v72h2/
> i've been reading stuff but I still don't get a solid explanation.



Tangent,
Do you have access to the whole article? Iam not paying 35 for it.

On the abstract, I suspect you are worrying about a minor fermentation point.

cheers

Darren


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