# To Mash Out Or Not To Mash Out



## Mercs Own (21/10/05)

What do you AG'ers do? What are the benefits of mashing out and what, if any, are the cons of doing it or not doing it. I know most of the micros dont seem to do it due to cost and labour so why would home brewers do it? Interested in the end effect on the beer if you mash out compared to if you dont.

Feel free to point me in the direction of any good articles related to the subject.


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## warrenlw63 (21/10/05)

Merc.

Started out doing it. However I now mash in an Igloo cooler. Gave up on it to save adding boiling water infusions to get to mash out temps. Real PITA.

Can't say it's ever been an issue. I just add the first of my sparge water a little hotter than normal and let the temp drop through the sparge.

That said I plan to build a mashtun out of a converted keg up the track. This will probably be directly heated. I may start mashing out again.

Basically choice is yours. B) 

Warren -


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## Goat (21/10/05)

I thought the reason for a mash out was to de-nature the enzymes and in so doing, terminate the conversion process. 

If that's the case, just what the benefit of this is, I'm not really sure. You would think that you'd want to maximise the conversion. needless to say I don't bother....


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## Murray (21/10/05)

The only partly satisfactory answer I have been given is that mashing out will improve consistency, ie ending enzyme activity at the same time every time should deliver a more consitent product.

I achieve mash out conditions when batch sparging regardless. I have no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that mashing out is beneficial to the process.


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## RobW (21/10/05)

This is from the Brewer's dictionary on the Brewtree page:

http://www.brewtree.com/page/page/1616262.htm

Some people think mashout means the temperature they "raise" the mash to before sparging. That is an olde world definition and not applicable to todays malts. Since today's malts are highly modified, and single infusion (one temp) mash is standard, Mash-out has taken on a new meaning. Mashout is now synonymous with the sparge process. The temperature you sparge with is basically your "mashout temp". It is recommended the sparge water be approx 168F to safely rinse the sugars from the grain, without leaching astringent flavors from the husks (which happens at higher sparge temperatures which are generally not used or recommended by modern brewers)


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## AndrewQLD (21/10/05)

A mash out will also make the wort less viscous allowing better extraction of the sugars. Due to the higher temperature the sugars in the wort become more runny(for want of a better word) making it easier to extract more of the available sugars. 

Cheers
Andrew

edited more for less


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## Doc (21/10/05)

My take on it is the main idea is to stop the conversion process (even though in a 90 min mash this has probably already finished).
I top up the mash tun with hot liquor following the mash which raises the temp to around a mashout temp.
The good point of getting the mash to a mashout temp is so that you can have consistency when brewing the beer next time, using the same time schedule, ie. easy replicable procedure.

Beers,
Doc


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## Trough Lolly (21/10/05)

Never done a mashout myself...I figure that if I need to halt the enzymes, then I've stopped the mash too soon!! I just hot sparge and that'll do me...

TL


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## SteveSA (21/10/05)

Mashing out raises my efficiency by about 5% - so I continue to do it. 

I use a rectangular esky for a mash tun so my grainbed is much shallower than that of a Keep Cold type cooler. Maybe the extra liquid helps with washing the sugars out? It could also be as AndrewQLD describes above - the increase in temp assists in getting the sugars out - sounds plausible.

It helps with MY system but may not with others. I guess it's one of those "getting to know your own brewery" things.

As for a better product - I highly doubt it! I'd like to meet the person who could tell the difference between mashout vs non-mashout.

Steve


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## chiller (21/10/05)

From the images of your brew setup Paul it appears you may have a direct heated mash tun. Mine is direct heated and yes I mashout. The reason for this [for me] is to maintain a consistent sparge temperature of around 74 - 76c.

I raise the mash slowly over about 5 - 10 minutes [gently stirring] to this temperature and the sparge water only needs to be the same.

As for stopping the mash -- it probably does but with today's malts most conversion with a good crush is completed in less than 35 minutes. The run off from the mash can slow appreciably as the temperature drops as the sugar solution thickens with the drop in temperature.

Sparge water temperature is not the issue -- it is the actual grain bed temperature - you need to get and maintain a bed temp of 74 - 76c for both batch sparges or the continuous trickle. Without a mashout the sparge water may need to be close to 90c to acheive the sparge temp of 74 - 76c

With a small non heated tun you may not be able to raise the temp from say 67 to 74c with boiling water, without running out of space in the tun.

Is it essential - no - Should you do it - entirely up to you - Will it improve your beer - 

Steve


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## Mercs Own (21/10/05)

Thanks Steve! That answered a couple of questions I had regarding my last brew day getting my sparge temp up to the correct temp - which I couldnt and the grain bed remained at 68 for the entire sparge.

So I can gentley heat my mash tun with the direct gas jet whilst I recirculate the liquid and set the bed then once the mash bed is at the correct sparge temp 75 and the bed set I can stop the recirc and start the sparge! Cool!

Looks like the next brew will have a mash out.


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## tangent (21/10/05)

bugger!
i'd read somewhere a sparge temp of over 70C starts to strip the nasty flavours off the husks. Maybe I'm not getting all of my sugars?
Should I be measuring my bed temp rather than my sparge water?


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## RobW (21/10/05)

tangent said:


> bugger!
> i'd read somewhere a sparge temp of over 70C starts to strip the nasty flavours off the husks. Maybe I'm not getting all of my sugars?
> Should I be measuring my bed temp rather than my sparge water?
> [post="84501"][/post]​


 As I understand you are OK up to 76 but you need to careful above that


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## AndrewQLD (21/10/05)

tangent said:


> bugger!
> i'd read somewhere a sparge temp of over 70C starts to strip the nasty flavours off the husks. Maybe I'm not getting all of my sugars?
> Should I be measuring my bed temp rather than my sparge water?
> [post="84501"][/post]​




Tangent, it is the grain bed temp that is important not the sparge water temp. 

Cheers
Andrew

Edit: to raise the temp of your grain bed (assuming a grain/water ratio of 1:3)from 65c to 76c you would need to add 12lt of 89c sparge water, which is easy for batch spargers but not so easy if you fly sparge.


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## SteveSA (21/10/05)

In the ghetto we don't have those fancy direct heated mash tuns!

I use an infusion of boiling water to bring my mash up to mash out temp. Very simple - 1L of boiling water increases mash temp by 1C. So to raise from 66C to 76C add 10L boiling water. Keep the water on the boil as you're adding it.

Steve

Edit: Just noticed AndrewQLD's edit. You can use the calculation from Beersmith (or other software) but the boiling water addition I have described allows for a smaller mash tun.

btw I batch sparge


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## tangent (21/10/05)

me too


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## sosman (21/10/05)

Either way you make beer.

I batch sparge in an esky and mashout. Sometimes I don't bother and beer still pops out.

Denaturation and *reduced* viscosity (runnier) are the claimed benefits. For sticky mashes this can apparently make a difference between a stuck sparge or otherwise.

Going above some temperature variously quoted in the low to mid 70's increases the risk of excessive tannins being extracted with the risk of astringency. I aim for 75C.


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## sosman (21/10/05)

warrenlw63 said:


> Started out doing it. However I now mash in an Igloo cooler. Gave up on it to save adding boiling water infusions to get to mash out temps. Real PITA.
> [post="84445"][/post]​


I am curious to hear what the PITA is re adding boiling water?


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## AndrewQLD (21/10/05)

sosman said:


> Either way you make beer.
> 
> I batch sparge in an esky and mashout. Sometimes I don't bother and beer still pops out.
> 
> ...




Thanks for picking up my blunder Sosman, my post has been edited. Even as I typed the original post in the last 20 min of work I felt something was not quite right. 
Viscosity:the quality of being viscous; especially : the property of resistance to flow in a fluid or semifluid 
hence the less viscous, the more easy the flow

Sorry about that guys.

Cherrs
Andrew


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## Darren (21/10/05)

Be careful bottom heating your mash tun. If some grain has found it underneath the false bottom it can burn


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## Jazman (21/10/05)

i havent done a mashout and i batch sparge but i do aim to have the grain bed around 74 deg mark but id plan a t a latter stage when my brewery is set permantly to do a step mash or even a decotion


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## Troob (21/10/05)

The enzymes are not denatured as quick as all that, esp alpha. Viscosity is not changed that much by a few degrees difference. 

Mashout I don't bother with, except sometimes a decoct to mash out to get some noce melanoidins


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## warrenlw63 (22/10/05)

sosman said:


> I am curious to hear what the PITA is re adding boiling water?
> [post="84517"][/post]​



Fairly simple... Running out of room.  

Warren -


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## warrenlw63 (22/10/05)

Let's face it, this could be argued forever.

When it gets down to brass tacks the easiest approach would be to do 2 similar brews. Mashout one batch and don't bother the next batch. 

Would then be just a case of recording the differences (if any). Yes it has it's merits in certain grist bills OTOH makes bugger all difference in others. :unsure: 

In fact I'd be almost certain if somebody was enterprising enough to hit the search key they'd find that this one has been hashed out before. You might even be lucky enough to find a few candidates who've changed camps either way.

It's becoming a bit of an old chestnut. <_< 

In 3 months time I'll cross the floor and start doing mashouts and espouse their virtues. :lol: 

Warren -


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## sosman (22/10/05)

On page 52 Fix says:


> ... the best results are generally obtained with a sparge in the range of 74-75 C and with water whose alkalinity is as low as possible (25 mg/L or below).


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## sosman (22/10/05)

warrenlw63 said:


> sosman said:
> 
> 
> > I am curious to hear what the PITA is re adding boiling water?
> ...


Ok but surely you still ultimately have to heat the same amount of water? How does boiling it take up more space?


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## warrenlw63 (22/10/05)

You've lost me sos? :blink: What I mean is there's no room left to add the boiling water to the tun to bring the grainbed up to mashout temps. So I don't bother. If that's lazy then that's me.  

Warren -


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## chiller (22/10/05)

On Tannin extraction --

This is far less a problem with or for those of the batch sparge camp. The final run off from the tun is often near 1.020 whereas a trickler can end up in the VERY low range of 1.005 very easily.

To reduce the problems associated with astringency you need a final runoff ph in the area of 5.7 [at least below 6]. That is the runoff of the liquid out of the tun.

When and if I ever trickle sparge [fly/continuous] I always adjust my entire brewday water to below a ph of 6 and then never encounter any flavour problems from sparging.

Phosphoric acid is ideal as a means to achieving this lower ph but dilute the acid to about 1:10 then use that more diluted concentrate as that allow a bigger margin for error.

If you do "nuke" your water by over acidifying it you will learn a valuable lesson about liquid buffers and about the point of rapid change in said liquid when the buffer is passed.

Steve


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## Kai (22/10/05)

I mashed out once, by removing a few litres from the mash tun, bringing it to the boil and returning it. It was very easy to do, but I don't recall noticing any benefit so I haven't bothered doing it again. I may try again one day to see if it does improve my efficiency, I have a very low efficiency system, around 60-65%.


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## Trent (22/10/05)

I was actually gonna ask if you could take some first runnings, boil it and add it as mash out, cause on some of my bigger beers I will have no room for mash out liquid (I currnetly just add all the sparge water at 82C in my "no sparge" system, brings the whole lot up to 73 or so)
If you drain off the first runnings, and add sparge water to brinbg the bed temp up to 75, as stated by Andrew QLD :
Edit: to raise the temp of your grain bed (assuming a grain/water ratio of 1:3)from 65c to 76c you would need to add 12lt of 89c sparge water, which is easy for batch spargers but not so easy if you fly sparge.
what temp sparge water would I need if I were adding 24L of sparge water?
I will try and look it up in How to Brew, but I lent it to a mate, so does anyone know offhand?
All th ebest
Trent


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## chiller (22/10/05)

Just for a laugh and increased efficiency I fly sparged today and did all the pH "stuff" to ensure a reasonable run off.


I adjusted all water at the start of the day to 5.5 and at the end of a VERY LONG sparge the final run off was 5.6 -- below the required ph of 6 so hopefully no tannins.

the brewhouse efficiency was 90% but really batch sparging is so much QUICKER.

Trading time for increased efficiency -- I'll take time, everytime.

Normally batch sparging I get 75 78%. I didn't do a mashout today but did take the sparge water to 95c to give a grain bed of 75c.

Steve


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## sosman (22/10/05)

chiller said:


> Normally batch sparging I get 75 78%. I didn't do a mashout today but did take the sparge water to 95c to give a grain bed of 75c.
> [post="84685"][/post]​


Ah - you don't have a Jarah mill


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## PeterS (22/10/05)

chiller said:


> On Tannin extraction --
> 
> 
> If you do "nuke" your water by over acidifying it you will learn a valuable lesson about liquid buffers and about the point of rapid change in said liquid when the buffer is passed.
> ...



Steve, could you elaborate on this a bit.? What sort of change are we to expect if it is over acidified.?

:chug: 
PeterS....


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## chiller (22/10/05)

PeterS said:


> chiller said:
> 
> 
> > On Tannin extraction --
> ...



The reason i suggest diluting the acid before adding to your water is to give better control over the rate of decrease in pH.

As you add acid to the water, normally there is a buffer or natural resistance to pH change that seems to hold the pH at a point no matter how much acid you seem to add. Then! all of a sudden the pH will drop rapidly as you have passed a certain point in the make up of the water.

let's say your water is a pH of 7.8 -- you may add 5 ml of diluted acid and only drop the pH to the buffer point and that may be say 6.4 but adding another 5 ml of acid may suddenly drop the water to 4 or below therefore you need to acidify your water in stages.

Disclaimer: I'm not a water chemist but the principles are correct 


Steve


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## Bilph (24/10/05)

Great thread. A lot of good info and good discussion.
I mash out because I can, quite easily, because I have a direct heat mash tun.
I have found a more consistent grain bed temp can give up to 15% better efficiency with my system. As was pointed out elsewhere, it's a [batch] sparging issue for me. I don't think denaturing enzymes is an issue with the grains I use given their high modification.


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