# Roast Malt = Roast Barley?



## mje1980 (16/5/05)

Are these two malts the same?? they look the same, but want to make sure. Any advice would be appreciated. 

:chug:


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## Jovial_Monk (16/5/05)

Roast malt would be chocolate or black patent.

roast barley is unmalted barley

they do have different flavors, try some of each to see which you like

Jovial Monk


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## jayse (16/5/05)

They are quite different, what do you intend to brew?

If your only using around 30g for colour neither will add much in the way of flavour so either should be fine. But if you using it in larger amounts for say either a porter or stout or brown ale then it will be important to use the right stuff.
You can make a stout with all choc or all roast but you can't reverse that and make a porter with all roast barley it will need to be mostly roast malt.


We are merely players...
performers and portrayers..
Jayse


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## pint of lager (16/5/05)

Beer is made from malted barley which is crushed, steeped at 65 degC, the resulting malt solution is rinsed, boiled, hopped, boiled, cooled, etc.

Malted barley is made by sprouting barley, and stopping the sprouting process before the shoot emerges from the seed. Malting makes high level of enzymes in the barley grain. These enzymes convert the starch in the grain to malt sugars when they are steeped at 65 deg C. The technology and application of the human mind to work this out always amazes me.

Governments like to raise taxes, and have used a tax on alcohol for many years. One way of applying this tax was to tax the amount of malted barley used. A cunning Irish brewer worked out they could use unmalted roast barley rather than malted barley to avoid paying some of these taxes.

So the same alcoholic strength beer could be produced for a cheaper price by using a component of unmalted grain.

As Jayse said, roast malted grain and roast barley taste different. 

To confuse the issue further, the grain can be roasted for varying amounts of time to produce different flavours.

We as brewers then can have a great time formulating recipes using either grain or even a combination.

End answer, brew two very similar brews, just switch malted roast malt for plain roast barley and taste the difference for yourself.


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## Sean (16/5/05)

pint of lager said:


> Governments like to raise taxes, and have used a tax on alcohol for many years. One way of applying this tax was to tax the amount of malted barley used. A cunning Irish brewer worked out they could use unmalted roast barley rather than malted barley to avoid paying some of these taxes.
> [post="59204"][/post]​


Using roast barley also helped those brewers making dark beers work around war-time malt rationing.

As well as the flavour differences, roast barley will help with head retention over black malt.


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## wessmith (16/5/05)

As a counterpoint, the Guiness brewed for export to Germany has always been made with Roasted malt as the rheinheitsgebot law would not allow the use of unmalted grain. Still done this way today as I understand it.

Wes


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## Sean (16/5/05)

wessmith said:


> As a counterpoint, the Guiness brewed for export to Germany has always been made with Roasted malt as the rheinheitsgebot law would not allow the use of unmalted grain. Still done this way today as I understand it.
> 
> Wes
> [post="59209"][/post]​


As Guinness have worked hard to make their beer uniform across the world (eg axeing bottle conditioned versions in countries where there was still a market for it, etc) reducing their beer to the lowest common denominator, I doubt Guinness are brewing anything different for Germany unless they are getting some huge marketing advantage from doing so. There are more myths about Guinness than any other beer I suspect.

I would imagine Germany is a tiny market for Guinness, and I would imagine most of their sales there are to ex-pat and forces British and Irish, who would hardly give two hoots whether Guinness is brewed to the rheinheithsgebot. On the other hand, Guinness are hardly going to go out of their way to tell people it isn't if thats what they want to believe.


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## wessmith (16/5/05)

Sean, not only do Guinness brew a "special" for the German market, they actually have something like 19 variants of the brew around the world. Try the Guinness Export in Malaysia and you will find something VERY different from what we see here in Australia. Even the kegged product destined for the US market is slightly different to that produced and shipped locally in Ireland. There was an article recently in one of the trade mags - Brewers Guardian I think, that gave a lot of detail.

Wes


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## Sean (16/5/05)

wessmith said:


> Sean, not only do Guinness brew a "special" for the German market, they actually have something like 19 variants of the brew around the world. Try the Guinness Export in Malaysia and you will find something VERY different from what we see here in Australia. Even the kegged product destined for the US market is slightly different to that produced and shipped locally in Ireland. There was an article recently in one of the trade mags - Brewers Guardian I think, that gave a lot of detail.
> 
> Wes
> [post="59216"][/post]​


Ok, I'm willing to accept there is German variant if you have evidence for it - I'm just surprised.

19 sounds a lot, but it's a heck of a lot less than there used to be, especially when one removes such things as the African brewed versions unavailable in the 'west'. There used to be something like 9 available in England alone (Park Royal brewed, bottle conditioned, St James Gate brewed bottle conditioned, Park Royal/Preston Brook brewed keg, St James Gate brewed keg, Foreign Export, Foreign Export (Belgian version), canned with widget, canned without widget, canned St James gate brewed).

If the article you quote is accurate then Guinness themselves don't seem to be giving a consistent line, since I have seen their own claims that the keg versions shipped to the US are identical to their English and Irish versions (regardless of whether the stuff is brewed at St James' Gate or Park Royal).


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## Wortgames (16/5/05)

True. Even here in Aus if you hunt around you can find 2 or 3 different versions - sometimes even in the same bottle shop.


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## Trough Lolly (16/5/05)

mje1980 said:


> Are these two malts the same?? they look the same, but want to make sure. Any advice would be appreciated.
> [post="59179"][/post]​



Further to the informative insights already posted, your question has the answer already in it...Roasted malt is malted barley that is roasted to achieve a darker colour. Roasted barley is UNMALTED barley that is roasted to achieve a darker colour.

Neither provide any enzymes so in theory they could be steeped and left out of the mashtun, but I prefer to toss them in and let the whole lot infuse in the mashtun. 10% Roasted barley and 90% pale ale malt makes a very good starting grainbill for a Guinness clone...I just did one! B) 

Cheers,
TL


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## Sean (16/5/05)

Wortgames said:


> True. Even here in Aus if you hunt around you can find 2 or 3 different versions - sometimes even in the same bottle shop.
> [post="59222"][/post]​


It's unlikely these days, but in the 'old' days you wouldn't necessarly know that some variants were there - you needed inside knowledge to tell - for instance knowing that all Guinness sold in Eldridge Pope and Hall and Woodhouse pubs, or packaged by either, was St James' Gate brewed, while everything else in the South of England was brewed at Park Royal.

In the days of bottle conditioned Guinness, you got different flavours from different bottlers - Park Royal brewed Guinness bottled by Fullers tasted massively better than Park Royal brewed Guinness bottled bottled by Whitbread (and had a lot more yeast in it).


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## deebee (16/5/05)

Sorry to hijack the thread back to its original course, but...

Yesterday I offered a coffee to some guests. My wife got some coffee out of the frig in a clear plastic clip-seal bag. The grind looked a bit big for the percolator but it was all we had so I bunged it in and put it on the stove.

When it was ready it didnt smell like coffee so I had a taste and it was pretty rank. It bore a faint resemblance to coffee but it was mostly just dry bitter burnt roasted flavours and a bit puckering. It only reminded me of coffee in the way a stout or porter sometimes has those coffee-like flavours. Not really coffee but reminiscent of coffee. I figured that it must have been stale sitting in a corner of the frig for years so I told my guests they were having instant.

Last night I was putting stuff away in the kitchen and realised I had made coffee out of a bag of roast barley I bought over a year ago and never finished.


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## wessmith (16/5/05)

Deebee, Japan buys roasted barley by the container load as a coffee substitute and most of it comes from Australia.

Wes


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (27/7/07)

Going to try 9% roasted malt in my next stout type brew in lieu of roast barley.
Here is what the recipe looks like:

83.5% Galaxy
9% Roasted Malt
4.5% Flaked Barley
3% Amber malt
18g Warrior (60 min)
20g Centennial (15 min)
WL 004

Does anyone think this would be too much roast malt before I go ahead and brew the thing tonight?

C&B
TDA


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## warrenlw63 (27/7/07)

TDA

Never used Roast Malt at those percentages... You'd have to expect it to be similar but by no means the same as Roast Barley.

Can't see it being a problem though. Recipe looks nice. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## AndrewQLD (27/7/07)

TDA, I have just kegged a Dry Stout I used 11% roast malt in, yesterday when kegging I had a sample and it tasted very nice, mind you I didn't have any amber in it just pilsner malt, roast malt and flaked barley, it has a dry but smooth taste. So I think the roast addition you have is fine.

Cheers
Andrew


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (27/7/07)

Thanks Warren and Andrew. 

Puts my mind at ease then.

C&B
TDA


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## Ross (27/7/07)

Just to confirm - JW roast malt = black patent.

Cheers Ross


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## Screwtop (27/7/07)

You can buy roast barley (caffien free coffee alternative) in the supermarket. Makes a nice sort of coffee drink, don't think the grain is malted just roasted.


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## wildschwein (30/7/07)

Roasted malt and barley beverages go back a long way and were traditionally used as a substitue for coffee in times of hardship or war rationing. Caro and Ecco beverages at the supermarket are the descendants of these poverty inspired coffee substitues. Although, these drinks are actually pretty good.

As to Guinness making a different product for the German market, I'm sure it's more than possible. However, German purity laws are only a problem if you're trying to sell a product called "bier." If you sell something called ale or stout, or porter or anything like that, purity laws don't apply, as far as I know, and any non-malt adjuncts are acceptable. Correct me if I'm wrong here.


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## voota (30/7/07)

I'm pretty sure that there is no specially brewed Guinness for German markets, Guinness is very hard to find over there... I only saw it in one bottle shop in Berlin (the belgian extra version), as well as one or two irish pubs (Guinness Draught). I personally hope it stays that way.


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## SJW (16/5/08)

Just back on the RB and Black malt side of things. I have messed about with both these and find it hard to tell any real difference. It stands to reason that the Black Malt will impart slightly more burnt flavours and prduce a darker beer as the EBC is higher. This is my latest recipe and I can't wait to give it a crack.

Stout 
Foreign Extra Stout 

Batch Size: 25.00 L
Brewer: Stephen Wright 
Boil Size: 32.05 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Keg Beer 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5000.00 gm Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EBC) Grain 76.34 % 
500.00 gm Barley, Flaked (Thomas Fawcett) (3.9 EBC) Grain 7.63 % 
400.00 gm Black Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (1300.2 EBC) Grain 6.11 % 
400.00 gm Chocolate Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (1000.8 EBC) Grain 6.11 % 
250.00 gm Crystal Malt - Dark (Thomas Fawcett) (350.0 EBC) Grain 3.82 % 
75.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 35.3 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 


Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.061 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.04 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.00 % 
Bitterness: 35.3 IBU Calories: 0 cal/l 
Est Color: 102.0 EBC Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 6550.00 gm 
Sparge Water: 13.61 L Grain Temperature: 15.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 15.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Single Infusion, Medium Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash In Add 15.00 L of water at 76.8 C 68.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 10.00 L of water at 90.0 C 76.0 C


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## SJW (16/5/08)

Might change the choc for Carafa Special III in the above recipe.


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## brettprevans (16/5/08)

why not split it and have 200g of both. I like a little choc grain in my stouts so its personal preference. i think it adds to the background flavour rather than actually giving a choc taste.


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## SJW (16/5/08)

citymorgue2 said:


> why not split it and have 200g of both. I like a little choc grain in my stouts so its personal preference. i think it adds to the background flavour rather than actually giving a choc taste.



Good idea. I understand the theory behind the Carafa Special but I am yet to determine any great diff between Carafa Special, RB and Black Malt. Its all good stuff though.

Steve


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