# Super-dry Ale techniques/advice plz



## droid (3/3/17)

Hello fellow brewers and happy Friday to ya!

Looking at doing a super-dry ale:

using either 100%pils or Ale malt
mash at 64 or maybe even 63
increase mash water to grain vol to 4ltr/kg
OG with grain to 1040
another 4 points with dextrose
hope to get it down to 1006 or so

any thoughts ?

cheers


----------



## Yob (3/3/17)

thought of dry enzyme?

3 hour mash?


----------



## manticle (3/3/17)

Extended mash, very low (62 maybe).
High attenuating yeast (saison yeast unless you're not chasing those flavours, coopers commercial is also good). OG no higher than 1040-1050.

Enzyme if you really need.


----------



## MHB (3/3/17)

Adding dry enzyme to the mash can help a lot, It is a type of Alpha Amylase, but made by bacteria and works across a much larger temperature range than does barley amylase.
Means you can mash closer to the Beta Amylase peak and still have the Alpha working hard, gets the mashing over in a reasonable time and makes for a very thin wort that lauters fast. Might get you down a lot lower than 1.006 even without adding dextrose.
Mark


----------



## droid (3/3/17)

I'm too slow to type MHB
thanks guys
62 and a long mash sound good - looking for super clean grain flavour if anything so a neutral yeast
dry enzyme - if it helps then I'm all for it - how do I work out quantities? as a % of final vol?


----------



## abyss (3/3/17)

If using dry enzyme can you still wash and reuse the yeast ?


----------



## MHB (3/3/17)

SO-4 is a good yeast, tho most commercial Dry beers are made with lager yeast, S-34/70 would work well, assuming proper temperature control. Lager yeast brewed cool throws a lot less esters and other flavours, probably attenuates a little more and the lagering process will reduce the dissolved protein giving a "Dryer" mouth feel.

As for reusing the yeast, shouldn't be a problem as long as you wash the yeast thoroughly, diluting the amount of enzyme to effectively 0.
Mark


----------



## abyss (3/3/17)

Thanks Mark.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (3/3/17)

MHB said:


> SS-34/70 would work well, assuming proper temperature control.


Yep, a recent batch of golden ale fermented on three yeasts (Wyeast 1388 wet, Belle Saison and WL34-70 dry) the 34-70 came out driest. I put the other two back over the 34 -70 lees for the second ferment (on added glucose), got down to 0.8 oP (OG was 16.5 oP counting in the added glucose).

Lots of oleic acid, lots of oxygen and a decent pitch kept the esters to an acceptable level even at 17 oC, though I think 50 kPa of top pressure would improve things.


----------



## droid (3/3/17)

It would be nice if the beer was smooth, crisp and really dry. I don't want any esters so that pushes things back into lager territory I spose. 
Is there a yeast that can run at warmer temps that doesn't throw esters? Or is thAt just the nature of the beast if fermenting warm?

Where do I find enzyme in a country town that is the question


----------



## Mardoo (3/3/17)

You can ferment under pressure at higher temps to suppress ester formation.


----------



## manticle (3/3/17)

Order online.
Grain and grape for example - they stock a few types so make sure you get the right one


----------



## Danscraftbeer (3/3/17)

Only time I used enzyme (Mangrove Jacks) the FG bottomed out at 1.000. That was for an IPA. It still tasted malty to my surprize. With the help of Melanoiden and a decoction. Still had good head retention too.


----------



## droid (3/3/17)

Thanks guys. I shot up to the LHBS and they had mangrove jacks enzyme. only Safale us04/05 and s23
I ended up getting s23 so it looks like being a Lager

Cheers


----------



## Midnight Brew (3/3/17)

A mash temp of 63 combined with aeration should go a long way to what you're after. I had the same wort over two different yeasts (2042 and coopers commercial strain) both hit 1.007 and that was a 50min rest as part of a step mash. With a longer rest at 62-63 I think you'd be able to go a tad further.


----------



## TheWiggman (3/3/17)

I'll be keeping an eye on this with interest. I've managed to brew some dry lagers before (1.004) with the help of dextrose and low ferment temps. I've been challenged however to make a Carlton Dry / Super Dry / Asahi-type beer for a friend, and the only way I'm going to do that successfully is with drying enzyme. I don't own a horse and the cat won't piss on demand so I've exhausted those sterotypical avenues.

Is the quantity of enzyme powder added proportional to the attenuation?
How much should be added for a standard brew assuming OG 1.0035, FG 1.000?
Will the mash temp have an effect on the degree of attenuation?


----------



## labels (3/3/17)

Brewing a dry beer is not difficult at all, neither do you have to add exoctic ingredients.

Firstly, it has to be a lager - after all you are trying to clone Super Dry so Temperature control is more than neccesary - it's critical - That's lagers.

You don't have to add adjuncts but it can help. My preference for an adjunct for this style is a good quality Jasmine rice cooked to a mush and added to the mash at about 20% dry weight to malted barley. Malt should be 100% pilsner malt although small amounts of other malts can be added for colour adjustment (or use Parisien Essence)

Mash down low for 90 minutes (63C), 90 minutes should be enough. Super important now is fermentation. Add a good, healthy and active yeast starter at about 8M cells per ml and oxygenate well. You can start the ferment off warm at 25C at pitching time but place under temperature control immediately after pitching.

Then folllow the normal rules of lager fermentation - Easy Peasy.


----------



## droid (3/3/17)

right, things are coming together - cheers fellas :beer:


----------



## Danscraftbeer (3/3/17)

I actually accomplished this when early into all grain. Before all the upgraded sophistication I have now... h34r:
Just one of those fluke beers you get every now and then.
Checking the notes a mixture of malts but very pale. I aimed to make a light beer with an og=1.040. But it finished at 1.002 so that makes it 5%.

Single infusion mash at 62c (it was less actually because my thermometer was out) in an esky mash so it declines in temp a little over 3 hours.
Multiple batch sparges.
I didn't have oxygen then. I just sealed the fermenter and rock and roll shake it after pitching the yeast.
The yeast was Coopers kit yeast. The dry yeast in the gold satche. Activated in a starter.

The beer was nice, crisp and good flavour like home brew is. It had a caramel note to it that I cant work out how but it was complimentary.


----------



## Danscraftbeer (3/3/17)

Don't forget to post us the results droid. B)


----------



## wynnum1 (3/3/17)

Cooked rice is a good idea but rice when cooked expands and can be a bit of a pain to mash.


----------



## MHB (3/3/17)

One other possibly helpful point, higher L:G favour dryer more delicate beers, somewhere around 4-5:1
Dry enzyme added to the mash really makes the whole process quicker and easier. Spending the dollars to order a S-34/70 would I believe be money well spent. S-23 is pretty good foe alt beer but doesn't really preform in very dry beers. 
I also think pitching a lager yeast hot is a big mistake, google up the manufacturers instructions and follow them, but be warned Lager yeast hot can throw a bunch of esters. Commercially Lager is usually pitched a couple of degrees below the ferment temperature, just to supress flavours that we don't want in lager.
Mark


----------



## labels (3/3/17)

MHB said:


> One other possibly helpful point, higher L:G favour dryer more delicate beers, somewhere around 4-5:1
> Dry enzyme added to the mash really makes the whole process quicker and easier. Spending the dollars to order a S-34/70 would I believe be money well spent. S-23 is pretty good foe alt beer but doesn't really preform in very dry beers.
> I also think pitching a lager yeast hot is a big mistake, google up the manufacturers instructions and follow them, but be warned Lager yeast hot can throw a bunch of esters. Commercially Lager is usually pitched a couple of degrees below the ferment temperature, just to supress flavours that we don't want in lager.
> Mark


Wyeast have a whole bunch of of reasonably high attenuating yeast strains, I am sure you can find one without resorting to using a 3rd party enzyme, Sorry, but I make a lot of lager beers and have never seen the reason to resort to 3rd party enzyme to make a dryer lager beer.

As far as cooked rice goes, in my post I suggested cooking to a mush. If you add it to the mash straight afer mash-in, the enzymes in the malted barley will quickly convert it so you don't have a stuck mash problem or a sparge problem. From experience here.


----------



## waggastew (3/3/17)

Any thoughts of using another base malt? I know Pils is light in colour but does contribute that grainy sweetness. Maybe diluting Pils with sugar etc might negate problem?


----------



## MHB (3/3/17)

It doesn't matter how highly attenuateive a yeast is, unless there is fermentable sugar there to ferment. I fully accept that there are lots of ways to skin the cat, the OP however said he wanted to use 100% malt.
Adding Amylase to the mash (especially an exogenous one with a wide temp range) simply provides more non-reducing ends for the Beta Amylase to chew on and gives a higher ratio of fermentable sugars in the wort, resulting in dryer beer than you can get without using adjuncts or enzymes.

Good trick is to add 10% malt to any rice (or other unmalted adjunct), start cool and heat slowly the Glucanase and Protease in the malt will help with the liquefaction of the adjunct. Helps prevent stuck sparges to.
Mark


----------



## droid (3/3/17)

**** it, I'll play a couple of early rounds of golf this weekend and brew next weekend instead.


----------



## labels (3/3/17)

MHB said:


> It doesn't matter how highly attenuateive a yeast is, unless there is fermentable sugar there to ferment. I fully accept that there are lots of ways to skin the cat, the OP however said he wanted to use 100% malt.
> Adding Amylase to the mash (especially an exogenous one with a wide temp range) simply provides more non-reducing ends for the Beta Amylase to chew on and gives a higher ratio of fermentable sugars in the wort, resulting in dryer beer than you can get without using adjuncts or enzymes.
> 
> Good trick is to add 10% malt to any rice (or other unmalted adjunct), start cool and heat slowly the Glucanase and Protease in the malt will help with the liquefaction of the adjunct. Helps prevent stuck sparges to.
> Mark


Sorry to cut in here but you are plainly wrong here. Amylase IS an enzyme. You are adding an enzyme irrespective of it's origin.
Amylase is an enzyme!


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (3/3/17)

I'm sorry but I can't see where you have provided any information that shows that MHB is "plainly wrong".

Please Explain?


----------



## labels (3/3/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I'm sorry but I can't see where you have provided any information that shows that MHB is "plainly wrong".
> 
> Please Explain?


MHB said

Adding Amylase to the mash <sniip> without using adjuncts or enzymes.


----------



## Danscraftbeer (3/3/17)

I only used enzyme when the fg was too high on an IPA. Post ferment.
It was an attempt to correct. FG = 1.022, should be 1.012. and it went totally the other way and bottomed out at 1.000. 
Just saying. Only used the enzyme once and that's the results you get. Interesting stuff though considering I had a IPA with a FG= 1.000 and it was not bad beer it was like all my beers really. The dry aspect can be over rated. Residual sugars are also over rated. I prefer dry than heavy body sweet.
Its a balance with lower calorie and carbs if preferable. Especially when you can still get that maltyness and head retention and good stuff.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (3/3/17)

labels said:


> MHB said
> 
> Adding Amylase to the mash <sniip> without using adjuncts or enzymes.


IMO your "sniip" _(sic)_ distorts the meaning of the sentences you have quoted.

Might be worth reading what MHB posted again.


----------



## MHB (3/3/17)

Da


----------



## Rattlehead989 (18/3/17)

Mash @ 63, use some sugar and use plenty of good healthy yeast + o2


----------



## droid (6/4/17)

Brewing on Sat, I've decided to stick with an Ale. Some fruitiness isn't a problem. Pils and a tidge of wheat. Will use US05 @16dC, mash at 62, 5% beer with .5% being corn sugar added, will use enzyme as well

Then I'll brew again and pull the enzyme, then the corn and compare, maybe splitting the batch with w34/70

Taking it as far as I can then bringing it back is the plan


----------

