# Oh Dear .... Vb & New Wins A Choice "taste Test"



## loftboy (22/7/07)

Makes you wonder about the "experts" that took part in this taste test.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22109933-2,00.html


----------



## lucas (22/7/07)

well experts such as Garry, a Victorian beer expert who has drunk nothing but VB for the past 40 years, and Cletus, a NSW beer expert who has alternated between Tooehey's Red and New since he was 12. Garry was quoted as saying "I always knew that VB was the best beer in the world, but I was shocked to find out just how good New was. I'd always thought it was supposed to taste like cats piss but it really tastes just like VB!"


----------



## thunderleg (22/7/07)

VB and New did not win the taste test. They were ranked higher than many more expensive brews. Here are the recommendations from the test on the Choice website:

These are the beers the experts gave the highest marks to. They’re a mix of two lagers, a pilsner, two ales and a stout, and they all scored 16.5 or 17 out of 20.


What to buy

Brand Price
Lager 
Hahn Premium Lager $14.00
Kokanee Glacier $23.00
Pilsener 
Bluetongue Traditional Pilsener $17.00
Ale 
James Squire Golden Ale $13.85
Little Creatures Bright $19.00
Stout 
Coopers Best Extra Stout $15.00


----------



## thunderleg (22/7/07)

The full results:

Results
Brand (in rank order within groups) Score out of 20 Origin Alcohol content (%) Bottle / can size (mL) Price per six-pack ($)
Lager
Hahn Premium Lager 16.5 Australia 5.0 330 14.00
Kokanee Glacier 16.5 Canada 5.0 355 23.00
Peroni Nastro Azzuro 16 Italy 5.1 330 14.00
Pure Blonde 16 Australia 4.6 355 13.00
Asahi Superdry 15.5 Thailand 5.0 330 19.00
Budweiser 15.5 USA 4.9 355 15.00
Coopers Premium Lager 15.5 Australia 5.0 375 13.00
Holsten Premium 15.5 Germany 5.0 330 13.00
James Boags Premium Lager 15.5 Australia 5.0 375 16.00
Tooheys New 15.5 Australia 4.6 375 11.00
Victoria Bitter 15.5 Australia 4.9 375 11.00
Carlsberg 15 Australia 5.0 330 16.00
Tooheys Extra Dry 15 Australia 5.0 345 12.00
Cascade Premium Lager 14.5 Australia 5.2 375 16.00
Grolsch Premium Lager 14.5 Holland 5.0 330 17.00
Haagen Premium Malt 14.5 Australia 5.0 330 11.00
Heineken Lager 14.5 Australia 5.0 330 15.00
Tiger 14.5 Singapore 5.0 330 18.00
Corona Extra 14 Mexico 4.6 330 14.95
Crown Lager 14 Australia 4.9 375 16.00
Red Stripe Lager 14 Jamaica 4.7 355 19.00
Singha Thai 14 Thailand 5.8 330 14.00
Steinlager 14 NZ 5.0 330 12.00
Michelob Ultra 13.5 USA 4.2 355 12.00
Sol 12 Mexico 4.5 330 15.00
Pilsner
Bluetongue Traditional Pilsner 16.5 Australia 4.5 330 17.00
Becks (local) 15.5 Australia 5.0 330 19.60
James Squire Pilsener 15.5 Australia 5.0 345 16.00
San Miguel Pale Pilsen 15.5 Phillipines 5.0 355 13.90
Becks (imported) 15 Germany 5.0 330 15.00
Stella Artois 15 Australia 5.2 330 14.95
Matilda Bay Bohemian Pilsner 13 Australia 4.7 345 14.85
Bitburger Premium 11.5 Germany 4.8 330 14.00
Little Creatures Pilsner 11.5 Australia 4.6 330 19.00
Ale
James Squire Golden Ale 17 Australia 4.5 345 13.85
Little Creatures Bright 17 Australia 4.5 330 19.00
Crackenback Pale Ale 16.5 Australia 4.9 330 19.00
Little Creatures Pale Ale 16.5 Australia 5.2 330 19.00
James Squire Amber Ale 16 Australia 5.0 345 13.85
Barons Extra Special Bitter 15 Australia 4.7 330 16.00
Cascade Pale Ale 14.5 Australia 5.0 375 11.85
Coopers Sparkling Ale 14.5 Australia 5.8 375 14.00
Coopers Original Pale Ale 13 Australia 4.5 375 13.00
Boddington's Pub Ale 12.5 England 4.7 440 14.00 (A)
Kilkenny Irish 12.5 Ireland 4.3 330 15.00
Stout
Coopers Best Extra Stout 17 Australia 6.3 375 15.00
Guinness Draught 15.5 Ireland 4.2 440 16.00

How we tested

*

Our six experts tasted the beers in groups according to style (lager, pilsner, ale or stout). They didnt know which beer they were tasting, only its style.

* Each expert gave each beer a score out of 20, based on the system used in the Australian International Beer Awards: 3 for appearance, 6 for aroma, 8 for flavour and body and 3 for technical quality. A score of 17 or over would win a gold medal, 15.5 to 16.5 a silver and 14 to 15 a bronze.


* The score printed in the table is the experts consensus score reached after the tasting, when they discussed the beers and their individual scores, still without knowing what the beers were. Its usually the average of their individual scores.


----------



## thunderleg (22/7/07)

More:

Do women like different beers from men? It seems not. Our two female experts told us they considered and tasted the beers in the same way as the men, and their scores didnt stand out as different. As well, our lay panel was 50% female and statistically their overall scores were no different from the mens.

Image: beer bottle and glass
The biggest loser?

Is beer fattening? Of course it is if you sink too many, but its less fattening than plenty of other drinks. On average, a 375 mL glass or bottle of lager gives you 580 kJ a lot less than youd get from a Mojito (about 950 kJ) or a Vodka Cruiser (about 850 kJ per 275 mL bottle).

Low-carb beers, such as Pure Blonde and Michelob Ultra, can be marginally less fattening, but regular beer is only about 2% carbs anyway. Most of the flab-forming kilojoules come from the alcohol. If youre worried about a beer gut, youre better off going for low-alcohol beer or cutting out alcohol altogether!
What about the average punter?

It may (or may not) surprise you that the experts rated the two mainstream beers included in the test (Victoria Bitter and Tooheys New) higher than many of the more expensive imported beers. Full marks to the brewers of these standard drops for producing quality beers at an affordable price.

Many regular beer drinkers would probably agree, but the experts are trained to ignore personal preferences and judge the beers on quality alone.

So, how do the rest of the experts' scores relate to the preferences of ordinary beer drinkers?

To find out, we recruited 10 non-experts (five men and five women) who just enjoy a good beer. We gave them 18 of the beers to taste (10 lagers, four pilsners and four ales) beers the experts thought were particularly good or bad, and a few in between.

Their verdict?

Our lay beer buffs generally favoured the same beers as the experts, with one notable exception most of the non-experts liked Little Creatures Pilsner, while the experts gave it the equal lowest score in the test.
Drinking in style

All beer starts off with four basic ingredients:

* Water
* Malted grain (usually barley)
* Hops (for bitterness, flavour and aroma)
* Yeast (to ferment the malt)

Image: beer glasses

From these four ingredients (once only three hops were first included just a few hundred years ago), and since the time of the pharaohs, brewers all over the world have created a vast number of different styles of beer. But there are still just two basic types: lagers and ales.

* Lagers are fermented with a yeast that works at cold temperatures, relatively slowly and at the bottom of the vat (bottom-fermented). This type of deep fermentation allows the flavours of the malt and hops to come out.

* Pilsners are lagers with more intense hop flavours.

* Ales have more intense, complex and fruity flavours that come largely from top-fermenting yeast that works quickly at near room temperature. Theyre matured for a shorter period than lagers.

* Stouts are darker ales made from malt thats been roasted at higher temperatures than for lagers and ales. This gives stouts a deep, rich colour and fuller flavour.


----------



## thunderleg (22/7/07)

The Experts:

* Geoff Skurray, Professor of Oenology, University of Western Sydney

* Nicola Rimmer, Brewer, Tooheys

* Paul Rogers, wine lawyer and lecturer, University of Western Sydney

* Caroline Aspridis, Draught Operations Manager, Fosters Australia

* Franklin Lucarotti, Malt Shovel Brewery

* Peter Aldred, Course Coordinator for the Graduate Diploma of Brewing, School of Science and Engineering, University of Ballarat


On average, the imported beers in this test scored below the local brews; the imported Becks even scored lower than the Australian-produced version, which seems to bear out the freshness argument. But thats not to say you wont find some impressive imported beers if theyve been stored and handled well and arent too old Kokanee Glacier Beer from Canada was equal top for lagers, and Peroni Nastro Azzuro from Italy equal second.
The labels could be more helpful

Labels can be strong on brewmaster babble:

* Brewed in a traditional best bitter style with a fine balance of noble hop character and smooth malt undertones.
* Brewed with pale pilsener malt and a late gift of imported Hersbrucker hops. And so on...

But most brands dont give you any indication of how fresh the beer is.

Beer goes stale within three to six months of bottling. Most brands have a best-before date stamped on the bottle (though its sometimes very hard to find). The mainstream Australian brewers have agreed on a date nine months after bottling. Most beers in this test still had more than six months to go when we bought them.

But a few brands had no date at all (only a coded batch number) and Coopers had only an unhelpful best-after date.

The big US brewer Anheuser-Busch (Budweiser and Michelob) tells you on the label when the beer was brewed. Why cant Aussie brewers be as upfront?

Buying tips

*

Buy the freshest beer you can. Get it from a bottle shop with a fast turnover, and look for best-before dates (for those bottles that carry them) with the longest time still to run, preferably at least six months.

* Dont get your brew from the glass-fronted fridges in bottle shops, especially if its a beer that comes in clear glass bottles. Exposure to light causes a chemical reaction that gives the beer an off flavour that Americans call skunky. (In this test, Sol and Corona Extra came in clear glass bottles, and neither scored well.)

* Remember that beer is a perishable commodity. Treat it as you would milk keep it somewhere cool and dark, and dont wait too long before you drink it; as if you needed any encouragement ...


----------



## simpletotoro (22/7/07)

> *Beer goes stale within three to six months of bottling.*



hmm.... ya think? <_<


----------



## Keifer (22/7/07)

> But a few brands had no date at all (only a coded batch number) and Coopers had only an unhelpful best-after date.



Seriously, are these people retarded?


Looks like they are getting some help manipulating the results and the analysis of the results... i call BS.


----------



## lucas (22/7/07)

I love this quote


> I do think Australian beers are the best in the world because drinking beer is part of our culture


yeah, because drinking beer is definitely not a part of any other culture. There's no beer allowed in Germany. the Poms are all sober. the Irish hate the stuff and don't get me started about those abstinent Belgians. Thank science for Australian beer!


----------



## MHB (22/7/07)

It's often interesting to look at the "Expert" panel, last time I was amazed by the results of a tasting like this; the panel turned out to be - 3 from Lion - 3 from Fosters and 1 - highly embarrassed independent.

Surprise surprise the local product did well in that comparison to.

MHB


----------



## sinkas (22/7/07)

I recently sat at a table at a beer dinneer with 2 Matilda bay brewers.
Both favourite beer: Matilda Bay Premier and Carlton Mid
Neither new what Cascade Hops were, or what Westvleteren... was


----------



## joecast (22/7/07)

the results here make me seriously question choice magazine on all their other comparison tests. they should stick to products with properties they can measure and leave the subjective stuff to the consumer.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (22/7/07)

I'm just trying ot work out what the hell everyone thnks is actually wrong with the conclusions that the panel of "experts" came to??

I'm looking at the list of beers they tasted and the scores/rank they gave them (posted by thunderleg) and while I disagree on some counts, I think for the most part they got it fairly right.

Lagers

alright, I suppose Hahn Prem at the tops a bit rich, but of the mega lagers it IS the best with ease. Peroni is up there too and I've never had the kokanee and for all I know it might be great

Sol, Singha, corona crown etc down the bottom where they should be and the rest of the dross kind of equal in the middle.

Pilsners

Well, I think that Bluetounge is not that great, but quite frankly, I dont think that ANY of the Pilsners on that list are a whole lot better. My pick of them would be the MB bohemian but there isn't much in it in anycase. Who cares what got picked as the best of a bad lot

Ales

With the exception of Coopers Sparkling, which I think deserved a little higher ranking... whats wrong with the order they got... what? JS Golden is such a bad beer that choice must be crooked to pick it as their favourite from that list... LC Bright and Pale Ales so horrible that the tasters must be stooges for the Mega brewers to have ranked them at the top of the list??

And as for picking the Coopers stout over Guinness... well anyone who argues with that needs a tounge replacement.

So.... what exactly is the problem that people seem to see?? That a panel of people seem to favour beers that are a little towards the bland end of the spectrum?? Well hell, so does 90% of the population. Its not like they chose actively terrible beers to recommend.

You want to drink bland mega lager... well, I might well steer you towards the Hahn as well, as for the others... its micro's and coopers... more power to em I say.

As near as I can tell, choice has handed out some pretty good consumer advice and people here have simply been driven into the same predictable frenzy that they usually are whenever it is mentioned that some people out there might actually like and /or prefer VB, or New, or XXXX or whatever.

its starting to get boring.


----------



## Doc (22/7/07)

> Crackenback Pale Ale 16.5 Australia 4.9 330 19.00



Kevin would have to be happy with that. I hope it was one of the hoppy batches that Crackenback have recently done.

Doc


----------



## ham2k (22/7/07)

Cascade "Pale Ale" is actually a pale lager. What is it doing in the Ale section?

http://www.fosters.com.au/enjoy/beer/cascadepaleale.htm


----------



## kook (22/7/07)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I'm just trying ot work out what the hell everyone thnks is actually wrong with the conclusions that the panel of "experts" came to??
> 
> I'm looking at the list of beers they tasted and the scores/rank they gave them (posted by thunderleg) and while I disagree on some counts, I think for the most part they got it fairly right.



I think the confusion is occuring because the news.com.au article "top 10" list and the actual top 10 scorers in the choice article are completely different.

The news.com.au article lists the top 10 as:

1. VB

2. Toohey's New

3. XXXX Gold

4. Carlton Draught

5. Carlton Mid

6. Carlton Cold

7. Toohey's Extra Dry

8. Hahn Premium Light

9. Cascade Premium Light

10. Crown Lager


----------



## thunderleg (22/7/07)

joecast said:


> the results here make me seriously question choice magazine on all their other comparison tests. they should stick to products with properties they can measure and leave the subjective stuff to the consumer.




Yes, I struggle to see what they were trying to achieve with this test. Still, I like their other comparisons. When there is so much sh!t on the market, they give you a starting point and some useful advice on how to approach things. They are all about the consumer, not the connoiseur.


----------



## Trent (22/7/07)

I am just gobsmacked that Kokanee was rated as highest in the lager category with Hahn Premium, and at $23 a 6 pack no less! It is basically western Canada's megaswill, much like VB or new. It sells for about $10 a 6 pack over there, right next to some of the best quality beers on the planet, for about the same price (nearly all beers over there in BC seem to be around $10 a 6 pack, they dont sell them in cartons of 24). Mind you, each country tends to export its worst beer - think Fosters for Oz, Bud for the US, Corona for mexico, Stella for Belgium, carling for the Poms, etc...
I think that they could have gotten a much better selection of beers to try, and to tempt the average aussie into getting more into the micro beers, but that said, there is a reasonably good selection of "micro" beers there, and it is good to see some of them do quite well. I think some of them were actually micro's too, as I assume the Crackenback is.
I dont agree with them, per se, but they could have done alot worse than they did. I just try and remember that Aussie's are a headstrong bunch, and turning them onto really good beer probably needs to be taken one step at a time. After all, the American micro's (all 1400 of em) only hold about 5% of the beer market.
Maybe next year they will put some more good beers in there, and get some more beer educated experts (with no disrespect intended to the expert panel they had). Mind you, unless VB and New are rated highly, no aussie yobbo is gonna give any credence to the survey - "No way that LCPA is better than VB! I had it once, they musta spilled perfume in it before it got bottled, tasted like flowers" etc...
Hopefully for us the market changes sooner rather than later
All the best
Trent


----------



## Mr Bond (22/7/07)

I couldn't give a flying f*#k what choice says or how subjective it is.

My tastebuds rule my "choices",and I obey them.

90% of the time they lead me to my own HB,and thats why I'm here.
Not to work myself into a pointless lather over what the commercial brewers and drinkers are doing and bagging them.

Pour yourself one of _your_ handmade beers,realise how lucky_ you_ are and get over it :excl:


----------



## boingk (22/7/07)

[Massive round of applause for Mr Bond dies down....gradually]

YEAH! WAY TO RULE M.B.!

I think you hit the nail on the proverbial head there. Also, I tend to disregard reviews because there is so much that is down to personal preference when *you* drink a beer that I find them a bit confusing sometimes. I'm not saying reviews or comparisons are bad, just that I know what I like and don't mind how others stack it up.

Cheers all - boingk


----------



## Randall the Enamel Animal (22/7/07)

> I hope it was one of the hoppy batches that Crackenback have recently done.



'Crackenback' don't actually do anything, other than market a product they have produced for them by a contract brewery. Hardly what I'd call 'cock on the block' stuff. Like Phil Sexton said on radio recently, "Ask from where your beer comes".


----------



## matti (22/7/07)

"Smaken e' som baken, DELAD!"

Swedish proverb 

The taste is like your behind , split

Cannot remember the english version, cause i've had one too many HB's

Mighty christ and the other fella too

It tastes good.

The reason the population don't drink great beer is advertising.

The big brewers got to spend their dough telling us what to drink rather then spending it on making great beer


----------



## simpletotoro (22/7/07)

this may be a little off topic but before i replied to this thread concerning the following statement (made i assume by choice)



> Beer goes stale within three to six months of bottling.


now i realise that there not talking about homebrew here ...and i also realise that commerical brewers must have a saleable product 100% of the time and at the time of sale (not like me who tastes his homebrew and says ...hmm ok maybe a little longer in the bottle will help mellow her out) but is that statement true ...3 to 6 months (nine months according to the aussie brewerys ) ? my father in law worked for xxxx for 30 odd years and at times i had beer out of his stockpile that was at least a year old and never tasted any difference ...mind you ... back then i though xxxx was an ale like the label said ....
so heres the question is it true that commerical beer goes stale (whats that mean anyway please?) and if it does ...why?...
and just to confuse the matter a little more ...the reason i got into homebrew was because my brother gave me his old stock of beer that was at least 2 1/2 years old at the time ...and after drinkinbg it i thought geez this stuffs alright ...
cheers simpletotoro (sorry about the thread jack )


----------



## petesbrew (23/7/07)

Mr Bond said:


> I couldn't give a flying f*#k what choice says or how subjective it is.
> 
> My tastebuds rule my "choices",and I obey them.
> 
> ...



You said it all, Mr Bond. :beer:


----------



## berapnopod (23/7/07)

My take on this is that the results are pretty representative of what I would expect from an expert panel. The interesting thing is the spread of points. For example, in the lager category, there are no less than 24 beers that all scored withing 3 points of each other. In other word, they are virtually indistinguishable. 

My only two gripes about the whole thing were:

1. The judges were overly generous with their scoring

2. There were no BJCP judges on the panel



Berp


----------



## stew41 (23/7/07)

sinkas said:


> I recently sat at a table at a beer dinneer with 2 Matilda bay brewers.
> Both favourite beer: Matilda Bay Premier and Carlton Mid
> Neither new what Cascade Hops were, or what Westvleteren... was



I've seen the same thing with a LC brewer. When faced with the option of buying a whole bunch of micros he had not seen / heard of (and plenty on encouragement from me to expand his horizons) he instead opted for 2 x 6-packs of LC Bright. Fair dinkum hopeless!


----------



## chimera (23/7/07)

I'm not sure anybody in this forum should really care which 'Aussie lager' gets the gong. We brew beer because we believe we can do a better job, and I certainly don't get my tasting notes from Choice magazine.

That said - Coopers Best Extra is a damned good drop, my views and theirs seemed to converge momentarily on that one.


----------



## Trent (23/7/07)

Mr Bond said:


> I couldn't give a flying f*#k what choice says or how subjective it is.
> 
> My tastebuds rule my "choices",and I obey them.
> 
> ...



Mr Bond
I think the reason that some people are taking this to heart, is that quite a few people on here would like to have the oppurtunity to brew for a living one day, and as long as the mainstream are still told that new and VB are 2 of the best lagers available in the country, it is going to be harder to change the way people think about beer. Or that is what I guess anyway. With so many good smaller breweries starting up, it would be good to see them get a bit of a chance. Or that is my take on the situation anyway. Otherwise, I too, drink my own HB more than anything.
All the best
Trent


----------

