# A little help please with wiring up a PID



## Bogan333

Hi all,
Has anyone wired up a Ink Bird ITC-100 VH PID along with a SSR 25 and two switches one for the PID and one the Element?

The switches are 6 Pin ON-OFF-ON LED Rocker Switch

The first attachment it shows the SSR with pins 4 2 but with my SSR in the second attachment it has it as 4 1 
3 1 3 2


I have checked around on youtube just a tad confused.

In the forth attachment is what I think it is.

If I'm wrong please anyone that knows how to wire to this configuration please send me a diagram.

Thank you
George Copley
[email protected]


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## Zorco

Hi George,

I think we should look into your bridging strategy on those 240V switches.

Where did you find that component? A quick peek at the data sheet confirms what needs to happen.

Edit: also, include the earth conductors on your sketch. That's the gem that saves your life.

Edit2: But I should have said that you've done pretty well mate.


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## Bogan333

georgecopley said:


> Hi all,
> Has anyone wired up a Ink Bird ITC-100 VH PID along with a SSR 25 and two switches one for the PID and one the Element?
> 
> The switches are 6 Pin ON-OFF-ON LED Rocker Switch
> 
> The first attachment it shows the SSR with pins 4 2 but with my SSR in the second attachment it has it as 4 1
> 3 1 3 2
> 
> 
> I have checked around on youtube just a tad confused.
> 
> In the forth attachment is what I think it is.
> 
> If I'm wrong please anyone that knows how to wire to this configuration please send me a diagram.
> 
> Thank you
> George Copley
> [email protected]



Hi zorsoc_cosdog

New configuration Now going with 4 pin ON/OFF Rocker Switches, Earth is now in the diagram
I'm concerned about the SSR with the load end? in their diagram the pins configuration are opposite to
mine, this is what I'm confused about.

I will be adding a 240V 22mm Flash Light Red LED Active Buzzer Beep Indicator and
240V Indicator Switchboard Light


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## mofox1

I'd be wary of using those rockers with a 10A load going through. Any slightly dodgy connection and those rockers will get *hot*.

I'd also recommend either getting a much more durable switch (ie - a 15 / 20A rated rotary) or using the rockers to activate a mechanical relay instead of directly inline (ie - electric brewery method, give them a lookup www.electricbrewery.com).

Good luck, good brewing, and as always... find a friend that packs TPS in the back of his ute.


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## Bogan333

Thankyou mofox1

I will be soldering the wires to the 240V 15A rockers

My concern is the load end of the SSR is it wired correctly?


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## Camo6

No offence but I think you need to take a step back and get some advice George. I've had a quick look at your drawing and got a bit confused. You seem to be trying to start a fire or kill someone. Not sure if this is your intention. Switches don't switch active to neutral, switching neutrals is not recommended, controlling a heavy load through an inline switch is bad practice, an SSR does not have an active and neutral connection, lack of earthing kills.

I haven't tasted a glass of homebrew yet that's worth dying for. 

Edit: Soldering 230V terminals? How will these be protected?


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## Bogan333

Hi Camo6,

That is why I'm on the forum asking questions and hoping to get the right help here.

The only good video I could find on youtube is this one. But he does not have any switches and earth plus he is not use brown for live and blue for neutral.
Also the diagram he showed he does keep to it. this is why I'm confused.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZDkrR0Vhrc


It will be EARTH heaps and yes the earth will be fastened permanently


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## Camo6

You're better off asking a sparkie offline how to do it. Unproven advice off the internet will probably void your life insurance. Anyone with knowledge and a duty of care can be held culpable for even correct advice.
I applaud your endeavour to DIY (I did the same) but seriously encourage you to either; gain a better understanding of what you're doing or; seek the help of someone licensed to do the job.


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## Zorco

Camo6 said:


> step off george.jpg
> 
> No offence but I think you need to take a step back and get some advice George. I've had a quick look at your drawing and got a bit confused. You seem to be trying to start a fire or kill someone. Not sure if this is your intention. Switches don't switch active to neutral, switching neutrals is not recommended, controlling a heavy load through an inline switch is bad practice, an SSR does not have an active and neutral connection, lack of earthing kills.
> 
> I haven't tasted a glass of homebrew yet that's worth dying for.



Camo6 has valid points....but I was hoping to promote your enthusiasm a bit more George as the details emerged and as you learnt a bit about this stuff.

Anything you understand ends up easy. I'm sure the love for brewing is what you're riding on. But a boot to the head from 240V is...shall I say...memorable - and worst case: you'll never remember anything ever again.


Responding to your question directly, your sketch appears to have indicated the load switching terminals of your SSD correctly. So keep up using your judgement.

Do you have any electrical test equipment? A multi meter? Go ahead and throw a 9V battery across Pin3 and Pin4 (minding polarity) and evaluate the SSD operation. That LED will turn on when energised.

Check your house's RCD and test that sucker. Press the button and make sure all the lights go out. Then I'd get an appliance you don't much care for (old lamp) and cut the sheath, cut the active (brown) and thow those two ends onto Pin1 and Pin2. Leave the neutral un-cut. This would be the moment where you have adrenaline in your blood and should be shit scared/respectful of electricity. In a healthy way of course.

Next, nearly all electrical engineering considers protection first. What fault currents will occur in what circumstances; Where does the fault current go? (Answer 1 is always: not through a human)
How do I isolate parts of equipment. Where am I going to place my circuit breakers? Will the protection coordinate with my house mains ?

Where is the energy going? Good point by Camo6... switches aren't ideal for moving tons of electrical pixies. Look into a device called a contactor.

George, Good onya for getting in there and asking. I'll help you where/when I can. I'm sure you're seeing how many more sketches you will need to draft up to sort out this bad boy!. 

And you will. But don't go this alone....if you have a sparky mate that happens to love your brewing wares.....hook him up for advice!


Jason

EDIT: As another idea (because I'm not sure of your experience / confidence with electricity) You could get yourself a 24 VAC power adapter which you could use as your dummy 240VAC power supply.

http://www.radioparts.com.au/product/33770200/ac2410?gclid=CM6eyf3Ex8wCFYZjvAodsx0Ljg#.Vy2mXhV97uQ

Just pretend that the power out of the tiny powerpac is main power until you're producing quality designs.

EDIT2: I watched that video link. It looks american with the 120VAC and the power outlet type. In the US, home wiring at 110/120VAC is legal I believe. There is less risk of death. That fluffy music doesn't fit in with the Australian setting.


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## Zorco

Also, for any DIY electrical people our there: Check out this guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDm5BfRrAsg

This bloke is ******* brilliant. I'm going to buy one of these meters just to see what happens! An amazing first FLUKE for ANYONE!

And, this reminds me of this SKOOKUM AS FRIG Australian who runs the EEVBlog

Tutorials on multimeter input protection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUhnGp5vh60


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## Bogan333

Thanks zorsoc cosdag ,

There are only two thing that I worry about glass and electrical.

I have ordered a 24 VAC power adapter to do the testing on which should here next week.


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## Zorco

I had a quick look at your signature : Sandgroper Brewery. On your facebook page is a picture of a FEA heater control panel. If you're near there, grab the panel key and take a look inside. There might be an opportunity to see the type of engineering you're aspiring to. (A scaled down version however). I'm sure a plant operator would be happy to take you through it.  

https://www.facebook.com/SandgroperBrewery/photos/pcb.1731004733781384/1731004703781387/?type=3&theater


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## Camo6

I'm sorry but I'm failing to understand how the load is correctly labelled in George's diagram. According to his labelling he is switching a neutral and an active at the SSR. That's called a short circuit. 
Does L stand for live? Both active and neutral conductors are considered live. Maybe he's just copying a US wiring diagram but without a circuit diagram I wouldn't be assuming anything.
And testing an RCD with a shorted lamp? If it's an RCBO how do you define between overcurrent and earth leakage detection? Apart from the fact whether it kills you or not. FWIW, 110V AC will still electrocute you even if just "a little bit."
I suspect you're trolling cosdog because anyone offering advice otherwise is either unlicensed or unphased as to the OP's safety (pun semi-intended).


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## Zorco

Camo6 said:


> I'm sorry but I'm failing to understand how the load is correctly labelled in George's diagram. According to his labelling he is switching a neutral and an active at the SSR. That's called a short circuit.
> Does L stand for live? Both active and neutral conductors are considered live. Maybe he's just copying a US wiring diagram but without a circuit diagram I wouldn't be assuming anything.
> And testing an RCD with a shorted lamp? If it's an RCBO how do you define between overcurrent and earth leakage detection? Apart from the fact whether it kills you or not. FWIW, 110V AC will still electrocute you even if just "a little bit."
> I suspect you're trolling cosdog because anyone offering advice otherwise is either unlicensed or unphased as to the OP's safety (pun semi-intended).


He didn't ask about the load, he asked about the connection on the SSD - twice. Yep, that diagram is bunk. George gets that and has gone and bought some toys to play with before he returns to 240 VAC.

Your RCD response: It doesn't fit with what I'd said. 

First time my name and trolling has been combined....and it doesn't feel .... natural.

Source:
BEng (Elec) 2006, High School Maths/Physics Teacher. 

I know the approach you're taking Camo6 and it is indeed the safest. I see that you have knowledge in this space, what would you suggest to George to help him skill up for this exercise?

Building his circuits with 24VAC and 9V batteries will provide him valuable learning experiments. Even my students play with this level of energy, as you would have when you started learning electricity.


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## Bogan333

Thanks Camo6,
Just making sure the diagram is correct.

At the movement I'm just trying to put things together, and asking question at same time

The main's will be going through a 15A RCD box then onto the control panel.
From the control panel all earth wires inside box will be corrected to larger earth cable that go's to the ground


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## Zorco

georgecopley said:


> Thanks Camo6,
> Just making sure the diagram is correct.


George,

No-one has said your diagram is correct.


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## SBOB

georgecopley said:


> Hi zorsoc_cosdog
> 
> New configuration Now going with 4 pin ON/OFF Rocker Switches, Earth is now in the diagram
> I'm concerned about the SSR with the load end? in their diagram the pins configuration are opposite to
> mine, this is what I'm confused about.
> 
> I will be adding a 240V 22mm Flash Light Red LED Active Buzzer Beep Indicator and
> 240V Indicator Switchboard Light


umm few points
1) earth that SSR
2) earth that SSR!
3) join all your neutrals and switch your actives
4) the ssr should be switching on/off an active line. it seems to have a neutral on one side and an active on the other (unless im squinting wrong)
5)I think i would switch the active pre SSR for the heater instead of after. If there's an o'sh*t moment I would want either switch to be definitely isolating the 'weak' link in the circuit and SSRs can have a tendency to have issues (depending on the quality) 

note: these are comments from some random guy on the internet and should not be taken as electrical advice


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## Camo6

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> He didn't ask about the load, he asked about the connection on the SSD - twice. Yep, that diagram is bunk. George gets that and has gone and bought some toys to play with before he returns to 240 VAC.
> 
> Your RCD response: It doesn't fit with what I'd said.
> 
> First time my name and trolling has been combined....and it doesn't feel .... natural.
> 
> Source:
> BEng (Elec) 2006, High School Maths/Physics Teacher.
> 
> I know the approach you're taking Camo6 and it is indeed the safest. I see that you have knowledge in this space, what would you suggest to George to help him skill up for this exercise?
> 
> Building his circuits with 24VAC and 9V batteries will provide him valuable learning experiments. Even my students play with this level of energy, as you would have when you started learning electricity.


He asked about the load connection on the SSR, correct? His diagram indicates a neutral to one side of the SSR and an active to the other. Maybe it's incorrectly labelled but there's a reason circuit diagrams are drawn up to begin with. The load side of an AC SSR should only switch an active conductor. Furthermore, a semi conductor type relay should not be used for true isolation. 
In regards to your RCD statement, you cannot connect a live and neutral conductor and expect that to indicate true earth leakage interruption. CB's and RCD's work on two separate principles. An RCD tester can be picked up pretty cheap.

Apologies for calling you a troll, I realise that is not your intention but there's a reason why alternating current is a licensed trade. Don't want to sound righteous or hypocritical but it is now being drilled into me how liable I am for giving advice on electrical even if it's sound. If Joe Blow cops a fatal shock from me telling him the correct way to wire a GPO, I can go to jail. However, Sandra, an electrical expert for one year at Bunnings, need not fear repercussions as she has no duty of care in the field.

Sorry for being such a negative prick but my this is now my living and feel the need to speak up when I see fit.


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## SBOB

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> George,
> 
> No-one has said your diagram is correct.


no, but someone should tell him its incorrect..

George, your diagram is incorrect!


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## Camo6

SBOB said:


> 4) the ssr should be switching on/off an active line. it seems to have a neutral on one side and an active on the other (unless im squinting wrong)


I'm glad someone else picked that up. I was starting to think the dozen schooners I've had were affecting my thinking.


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## SBOB

Camo6 said:


> I'm glad someone else picked that up. I was starting to think the dozen schooners I've had were affecting my thinking.


Im thinking a PID/SSR controlled short circuit could be an interesting exercise if you used the temperature of the house fire as the control reference


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## Bogan333

That's ture zorsco cosdag But No-one has given me answer to that yet. The control panel will not be connected to the main unit
it is 100% right.

plus if some one is to say to me you will also need this component as well, because it does this!!! I'm listening

Problem is every thing on youtube is American.

Yes help and good advice is every thing, I'm building it because so I can start to understand how it works.


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## SBOB

georgecopley said:


> Problem is every thing on youtube is American.


this shouldn't matter... electrons don't flow in opposite directions in the northern hemisphere. It's just theirs are at 110v and slightly less likely for you to recieved a posthumously given darwin award


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## Bogan333

Is someone able to give the correct diagram, that's what I'm asking for?


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## Camo6

georgecopley said:


> Yes help and good advice is every thing, I'm building it because so I can start to understand how it works.


For your sake and ours, please understand how it works so you can build it (and make good beer).


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## Camo6

Haha, sorry George, this thread must be frustating as **** for you! There are pics on the forum for what you seek if you look hard enough. If you're like me , you'll learn a lot while doing so. Just get it checked by a licensed electrician.


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## Bogan333

Not just good beer but top notch nectar of the gods


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## SBOB

georgecopley said:


> Is someone able to give the correct diagram, that's what I'm asking for?


or you could take note of the points raised, attempt to understand the logic behind the wiring and re-attempt your drawing.
More likely to get favourable assistance if you at least show the basic understanding of the electrical circuit (i dont particularly want a misunderstanding on a crappy sketch I would do up on the internet being responsible for someone accidentally getting their d*ck stuck in a power point)


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## SBOB

Camo6 said:


> Haha, sorry George, this thread must be frustating as **** for you!


it shouldnt be.. theres at least a few replies with pretty useful pointers that should allow him to re-draw that diagram and fix the issues in his initial attempt


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## Camo6

SBOB said:


> it shouldnt be.. theres at least a few replies with pretty useful pointers that should allow him to re-draw that diagram and fix the issues in his initial attempt


But it's the internet. We want answers NOW goddammit.


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## Bogan333

I do know a licensed electrician who will check it for 12 bottles of my finest.

But is a typical tradie that won't help you while building a project just at the end of it.


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## Zorco

georgecopley said:


> I do know a licensed electrician who will check it for 12 bottles of my finest.
> 
> But is a typical tradie that won't help you while building a project just at the end of it.


George,

Those 'typical tradies' are the people who understand electrical systems to a level that most people don't understand - this includes you at the moment. They will provide technical assurance and quality review so that you don't kill yourself and it takes years and they are skilled and experienced. 

I respect Camo6 for his efforts to dissuade you from your PID build. I respect him and all electrical tradespeople who work with the level of liability they have.

Based on your past few posts, I'm no longer convinced you will try out your designs with 24VAC (1Amp) and 9V batteries so that you learn safely. I now think you will rush to get your system running.

Within the brotherhood of beer we are often jovial and will always find a way to crack jokes. In this case I regret not being more cautious and have learnt from the experience.

You should not proceed with your build without professional and licensed supervision and formal sign-off of design documentation. There is a serious risk of death or injury. 



Edit: Better phrasing


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## SBOB

The attached diagram contains information drawn by my dog after I gave him a beer....

Based on that information I would assume you will use it as a basis for understanding only and obviously not use it to do any kind of 240v wiring because who the f*ck would take electrical wiring information from a dog? They're colour blind after all, and have absolutely no idea about PID control circuits nor any idea about what the pin connections on an InkBird PID controller are..


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## Bogan333

This project has not been rushed, I can say it has been over 6 months just to get this far. Just it is very hard to find someone who is licensed to help with out paying the big dollars. When I do take it over to the person who I know, just to fix up things here and there, it probably will take 2 or more months for him just to even look at.

You get to a stage where youtube can only take you so far, so the next stage was here where I thought advance home brewers with electrical brew setup could give some more information.

That's where I'm at.


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## Camo6

SBOB said:


> The attached diagram contains information drawn by my dog after I gave him a beer....
> 
> Based on that information I would assume you will use it as a basis for understanding only and obviously not use it to do any kind of 240v wiring because who the f*ck would take electrical wiring information from a dog? They're colour blind after all, and have absolutely no idea about PID control circuits nor any idea about what the pin connections on an InkBird PID controller are..


Somebody shout that dog another round.


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## Zorco

georgecopley said:


> This project has not been rushed, I can say it has been over 6 months just to get this far. Just it is very hard to find someone who is licensed to help with out paying the big dollars. When I do take it over to the person who I know, just to fix up things here and there, it probably will take 2 or more months for him just to even look at.
> 
> You get to a stage where youtube can only take you so far, so the next stage was here where I thought advance home brewers with electrical brew setup could give some more information.
> 
> That's where I'm at.


It's a good place to be mate.

This dog is heading to the fridge for his next round..


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## Bogan333

SBOB said:


> The attached diagram contains information drawn by my dog after I gave him a beer....
> 
> Based on that information I would assume you will use it as a basis for understanding only and obviously not use it to do any kind of 240v wiring because who the f*ck would take electrical wiring information from a dog? They're colour blind after all, and have absolutely no idea about PID control circuits nor any idea about what the pin connections on an InkBird PID controller are..
> 
> So that will insulate the element when the PID is ON?


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## Zorco

All yours SBOB :chug:


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## SBOB

SBOB said:


> So that will insulate the element when the PID is ON?


This will allow you to have a 'mains' power switch which will enable the system/activate the PID controller and a second 'Heater' power switch which will allow you to isolate the SSR/Heater

Or at least thats what the dog in the corner said while looking up from his beer... no idea if he knows what he's talking about or not


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## Bogan333

Thankyou SBOB and to your Dog he needs a other beer.

now we are starting to get some way


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## Zorco

Only one more beer for pooch and

BAM!


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## SBOB

Some dogs just cant handle their drinks...


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## manticle

I am not qualified to help you with your wiring GC.
I am however qualified to suggest that in the case of electrical wiring, you should only attempt anything if you are 100% certain and correct.


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## Camo6

Or have a really switched on dog.


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## manticle

My cat's pretty smart.


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## MastersBrewery

And if that element is going in a pot made of conductive material(Stainless,aluminium ), just be sure that pot has a clean conection to earth. Just to be safe. Simple light circuit tester, from the earth pin at the plug to any and all metal, that is part of or in contact with the circuit.


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## Camo6

manticle said:


> My cat's pretty smart.


Yeah but I bet it would rather watch you struggle.


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## manticle

He would eat my dead flesh.


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## Bogan333

New diagram with some help
The Element insulation switch is now between the PID and the SSR, with two editorial 16A inline fuse 1st main power coming in 2nd between SSR and element. He has add the Alarm Buzzer with switch. The diagram will be for the HLT and Mash tun. With the boiler he is going to get back to me in regards where to put the 4000W 220V AC SCR Voltage Regulator Dimmer Electric Motor Speed Controller for the element.


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## SBOB

georgecopley said:


> New diagram with some help
> The Element insulation switch is now between the PID and the SSR, with two editorial 16A inline fuse 1st main power coming in 2nd between SSR and element. He has add the Alarm Buzzer with switch. The diagram will be for the HLT and Mash tun. With the boiler he is going to get back to me in regards where to put the 4000W 220V AC SCR Voltage Regulator Dimmer Electric Motor Speed Controller for the element.



1)no idea why you are switching the 12v supply to the SSR instead of the 240v mains power.. 
- Hypothetically you're SSR fails and latches closed, that switch will do absolutely nothing as you still have 240v mains heading into the 'live' side
- If you are going to have two switches, make both of them kill power to the element/SSR/most likely bit which you will be near/touching
2) You also haven't indicated an earth to the SSR
3) You haven't indicated an earth to the SSR!


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## SBOB

georgecopley said:


> With the boiler he is going to get back to me in regards where to put the 4000W 220V AC SCR Voltage Regulator Dimmer Electric Motor Speed Controller for the element.


Why are you adding this? Element larger than maximum current source?


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## Bogan333

Hello my name is Derrick

George's neighbour in our street YES I'm a qualified electronics technician.
George ask me for some technical support on his project.
I understand why he choose such a forum clearly there are advance home brewers who have build their own electric brewing system on here.
And you could say he was hopping to get the right direction by those people.
Yes George's knowledge of electronics is basics I can see that, at least he has the nous to seek information and ask questions

This morning when we were having chat I could see he was getting quiet frustrated.
I asked can I help
Clearly he is only half way through is build where is still waiting on parts from overseas


Than he showed me this forum and I read the topic from start to finish I could not believe the shit that has been given to George.
If you were to go back and take a look at the first schematic pic he put up also the video link from Ink Bird you can see it is wrong, That was his main question he was asking for. Which no one answered
Here some of the comments to George



One person telling George earth the Solid state relay
*Give me your reason WHY ? I’ll tell you No one does in the electronics industry*







l'd be wary of using those rockers with a 10A load going through. Any slightly dodgy connection and those rockers will get *hot*. “
*That's a load of bull it's Toggle switches are ones you look out for.*

3)no idea why you are switching the 12v supply to the SSR instead of the 240v mains power.



Hypothetically you're SSR fails and latches closed, that switch will do absolutely nothing as you still have 240v mains heading into the 'live' side”


If you are going to have two switches, make both of them kill power to the element/SSR/most likely bit which you will be near/touching


*He is not using the switch as a kill switch he wants to be able to have the proportional–integral–derivative controller ON without the element been ON*


I told George the best way to wire up _*proportional integral derivative*_ *controller

Also someone said why are you going to use a Voltage Regulator Dimmer
it's there to only allow up to 220v or lower also he wants to stop any boil overs *
*which I have check the best place for it is in front of solid state relay and behind the switch *


The other people putting up stupid jokes and pictures
And electricity kills I think he knows that

Let me tell you good people it is not the watts or volts that kill it is the AMPS
As well in Western Australian check your power coming in I think you will be surprised to find we are getting over 255V
I have looked at all George's components and they all look quite sound

*George was asking for your help not to be treated like a fool*

I will be mentoring George on his project

I don't drink beer but I will be drinking George's mead and cider


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## SBOB

Wow.. dont know where to start with that rant...



> _*"If you were to go back and take a look at the first schematic pic he put up also the video link from Ink Bird you can see it is wrong, That was his main question he was asking for. Which no one answered"*_


pretty sure my dog posted a pretty good answer to his post with an accurate schematic (smart dog), along with being told his diagram was incorrect...



> _*One person telling George earth the Solid state relay*_
> _*Give me your reason WHY ? I’ll tell you No one does in the electronics industry*_


because its good practice, provides a convenient ground location to the chassis and often has a great big hunk of a heatsink on the back made out of nicely conductive metal





> *)no idea why you are switching the 12v supply to the SSR instead of the 240v mains power.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Hypothetically you're SSR fails and latches closed, that switch will do absolutely nothing as you still have 240v mains heading into the 'live' side”*
> 
> 
> *If you are going to have two switches, make both of them kill power to the element/SSR/most likely bit which you will be near/touching*
> 
> 
> 
> _*He is not using the switch as a kill switch he wants to be able to have the proportional–integral–derivative controller ON without the element been ON*_







Which would still be achieved by switching the 240v load in to the SSR (as my dog drew), and provide actual electrical isolation to the SSR and element in the case someones trying to quickly kill power to the board/SSR/element.. When you have the choice between turning the element on by (a) switching the control signal to the SSR or (b)switch the actual mains voltage to the SSR, I dont knw why any 'electronics technician' would choose (a)



> _*Also someone said why are you going to use a Voltage Regulator Dimmer
> it's there to only allow up to 220v or lower also he wants to stop any boil overs*_
> _*which I have check the best place for it is in front of solid state relay and behind the switch*_


No idea how this will stop a boil over and the PID controller is there to regulate the power going to the element via PWM control, to maintain whatever temperature is set (and also likely allows for a set power output % for fixed boiling duties), but if a volume control helps him then sure...
And I would be placing it AFTER a switch on the active line but before the SSR... or at least my dog would


I think George should be thankful for the assistance he got on here, as my dog is feeling pretty unappreciated (and hung over)


the fact you keep calling it a proportional-integral-derivative-controller makes me wonder if you deal with these often as I dont know anyone who doesnt just say PID


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## manticle

georgecopley said:


> Hello my name is Derrick
> 
> George's neighbour in our street YES I'm a qualified electronics technician.
> George ask me for some technical support on his project.
> I understand why he choose such a forum clearly there are advance home brewers who have build their own electric brewing system on here.
> And you could say he was hopping to get the right direction by those people.
> Yes George's knowledge of electronics is basics I can see that, at least he has the nous to seek information and ask questions
> 
> This morning when we were having chat I could see he was getting quiet frustrated.
> I asked can I help
> Clearly he is only half way through is build where is still waiting on parts from overseas
> 
> Than he showed me this forum and I read the topic from start to finish I could not believe the shit that has been given to George.
> If you were to go back and take a look at the first schematic pic he put up also the video link from Ink Bird you can see it is wrong, That was his main question he was asking for. Which no one answered
> Here some of the comments to George
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One person telling George earth the Solid state relay
> *Give me your reason WHY ? I’ll tell you No one does in the electronics industry*
> 
> [/*]
> 
> 
> l'd be wary of using those rockers with a 10A load going through. Any slightly dodgy connection and those rockers will get *hot*. “
> *That's a load of bull it's Toggle switches are ones you look out for.*
> 3)no idea why you are switching the 12v supply to the SSR instead of the 240v mains power.
> 
> 
> Hypothetically you're SSR fails and latches closed, that switch will do absolutely nothing as you still have 240v mains heading into the 'live' side”
> 
> 
> If you are going to have two switches, make both of them kill power to the element/SSR/most likely bit which you will be near/touching*He is not using the switch as a kill switch he wants to be able to have the proportional–integral–derivative controller ON without the element been ON*
> 
> I told George the best way to wire up _*proportional integral derivative*_ *controller
> Also someone said why are you going to use a Voltage Regulator Dimmer
> it's there to only allow up to 220v or lower also he wants to stop any boil overs *
> *which I have check the best place for it is in front of solid state relay and behind the switch *
> 
> 
> The other people putting up stupid jokes and pictures
> And electricity kills I think he knows that
> Let me tell you good people it is not the watts or volts that kill it is the AMPS
> As well in Western Australian check your power coming in I think you will be surprised to find we are getting over 255V
> I have looked at all George's components and they all look quite sound*George was asking for your help not to be treated like a fool*
> I will be mentoring George on his project
> I don't drink beer but I will be drinking George's mead and cider


Most of the posts have either tried to be informative or at worst, consider the welfare of not just George but anyone else (in the world) who may read and follow the advice on here.

Great that you're around to help George. Most replies here also have his best interests at heart.
A stupid picture won't kill you.
Incorrectly homewired stuff might.

Spend your energy helping your neighbour rather than being antagonistic.


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## Camo6

georgecopley said:


> Hello my name is Derrick
> 
> George's neighbour in our street YES I'm a qualified electronics technician.
> George ask me for some technical support on his project.
> I understand why he choose such a forum clearly there are advance home brewers who have build their own electric brewing system on here.
> And you could say he was hopping to get the right direction by those people.
> Yes George's knowledge of electronics is basics I can see that, at least he has the nous to seek information and ask questions
> 
> This morning when we were having chat I could see he was getting quiet frustrated.
> I asked can I help
> Clearly he is only half way through is build where is still waiting on parts from overseas
> 
> 
> Than he showed me this forum and I read the topic from start to finish I could not believe the shit that has been given to George.
> If you were to go back and take a look at the first schematic pic he put up also the video link from Ink Bird you can see it is wrong, That was his main question he was asking for. Which no one answered
> Here some the comments to George
> 
> 
> 
> One person telling George earth the Solid state relay
> *Give me your reason WHY ? I’ll tell you No one does in the electronics industry*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> l'd be wary of using those rockers with a 10A load going through. Any slightly dodgy connection and those rockers will get *hot*. “
> *That's a load of bull it's Toggle switches are ones you look out for.*
> 
> 3)no idea why you are switching the 12v supply to the SSR instead of the 240v mains power.
> 
> 
> 
> Hypothetically you're SSR fails and latches closed, that switch will do absolutely nothing as you still have 240v mains heading into the 'live' side”
> 
> 
> If you are going to have two switches, make both of them kill power to the element/SSR/most likely bit which you will be near/touching
> 
> 
> *He is not using the switch as a kill switch he wants to be able to have the proportional–integral–derivative controller ON without the element been ON*
> 
> 
> I told George the best way to wire up _*proportional integral derivative*_ *controller
> 
> Also someone said why are you going to use a Voltage Regulator Dimmer
> it's there to only allow up to 220v or lower also he wants to stop any boil overs *
> *which I have check the best place for it is in front of solid state relay and behind the switch *
> 
> 
> The other people putting up stupid jokes and pictures
> And electricity kills I think he knows that
> 
> Let me tell you good people it is not the watts or volts that kill it is the AMPS
> As well in Western Australian check your power coming in I think you will be surprised to find we are getting over 255V
> I have looked at all George's components and they all look quite sound
> 
> *George was asking for your help not to be treated like a fool*
> 
> I will be mentoring George on his project
> 
> I don't drink beer but I will be drinking George's mead and cider


Thanks for your input Derrick.

Forgive my ignorance but is a qualified electronics technician licensed to wire 230V AC? We're not really talking electronics here are we? That bit gets taken care of by the PID and SSR. The bit George wants to handle is an electrical circuit. Having an understanding of how it works is great but if it doesn't comply with laws and rules implemented to protect human life, you're just asking for trouble.

George hasn't been attacked. It has strongly been recommended from the start of the thread that he seeks licensed advice. This isn't ELV DC. If he gets this wrong he can't pop his head over the fence and tell you he burnt his fingers. If he is unhappy of the electrical advice he has sought on a beer brewing forum he should ask the same on an electrical one. Then you'll see people attack him.

1. Why wouldn't you earth an SSR? In most builds on here the SSR gets mounted to an external aluminium heat sink. If your enclosure is plastic and the SSR shorts to the casing have a guess what else is gonna liven up?

2. Why wouldn't you include an isolation switch to control the load of the element? A SSR doesn't offer true isolation. Why switch off the element without isolating it? That's asking for trouble.

3. Why use a voltage regulator to control the boil when the PID has a manual mode to PWM the output?

I love how everyone always tries to pull the old "It's not the volts that kill, it's the amps" card. Bullshit. It's a combination of the two.


Edit: Too slow, SBOB covered most of my points already!


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## barls

this has run for a bit linger than the normal how do i wire this up, and will continue to do so as long as everyone plays nice so I'm going to point out that its against the rules to ask for what he is asking.


> 4. Posts recommending potentially dangerous actions (such as unprotected, incorrect or dangerous 240v wiring) is not recommended, and may be removed at the discretion of the site administrators.


there have been numerous helpful posts as manticle has pointed out. also under litigation laws most won't put their hand up and say outright this is the way to do it as someone will misinterpret it and then get hurt.
also as a fellow electronics tech please make sure of what your saying is correct before blasting members on here as it will only result in George getting a time out or possibly banned.


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## Bogan333

Derrick here

Great I have been sitting waiting for comments while sipping on George's mead very nice indeed.

First bloke off the rank SBOB is it. 
I have installed one or two *"PID" *in my 30 years of electronics from automotive shops and hobby craft kiln's

*Not his diagram* the first diagram from Ink bird is wrong I can see what he was saying *you can't*

You did not say in the older posts to the heatsink at all. in-saying that it is up to you if you wish to do that, In my industry there's no need.

"PID overshoot and what he told me that to keep it a nice rolling boil

You have your back to front ass about or did your dog tell you that

* MainSwitch- PID- isolationSwitch- Behind Voltage Regulator Dimmer* Front- SSR

That's it for now going to have couple drinks with George


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## Camo6

georgecopley said:


> *That's it for now going to have couple more drinks with George*


Fixed this for you Derrick.


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## TheWiggman

This has become quite surreal. George there are numerous people here who have wired up controllers - safely - but the way you are asking questions raises a few red flags (use of letters on diagrams for one). Based on your diagrams and language your level of competence is a bit below the 'advice' level. Kind of like asking how to race a car but not knowing which foot the clutch is on. This isn't a stab, but we all start somewhere so train yourself up a bit before taking the plunge. I suggest then run it by Derrick, THEN by an electrician. There is a reason they have a licence to do their job, there are things they know that save lives that the rest of us didn't spend 4 years training to learn. Doesn't mean you can't do parts of their job (most of us can turn a screwdriver), it means you don't know necessarily know the right thing to do.
Edit: why not let Derrick work out the diagram for you? He sounds keen to help out. Seriously.


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## Benn

...I take back all the mean things I've said to my Spiral Burner,


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## Bogan333

Danke Camo6 I think George's mead is now going to my head 15% Dry mead


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## Zorco

Queensland Consolidated Acts

[Index] 

[Search] [Search this Act] [Notes] [Noteup] [Previous] [Next] [Download] [Help]
ELECTRICAL SAFETY ACT 2002 - SECT 40B

40B Reckless conduct—category 1
(1) A person commits a category 1 offence if—

(a) the person has an electrical safety duty; and
(b ) the person, without reasonable excuse, engages in conduct that exposes an individual to whom that duty is owed to a risk of death or serious injury or illness; and
(c ) the person is reckless as to the risk to an individual of death or serious injury or illness.
Maximum penalty—

(a) for an offence committed by an individual, other than as a person conducting a business or undertaking or as an officer of a person conducting a business or undertaking—3000 penalty units or 5 years imprisonment; or
(b ) for an offence committed by an individual as a person conducting a business or undertaking or as an officer of a person conducting a business or undertaking—6000 penalty units or 5 years imprisonment; or
(c ) for an offence committed by a body corporate—30,000 penalty units.
(2) The prosecution bears the burden of proving that the conduct was engaged in without reasonable excuse.

(3) A category 1 offence is a crime.


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## Zorco

Queensland Consolidated Acts

[Index] 

[Search] [Search this Act] [Notes] [Noteup] [Previous] [Next] [Download] [Help]
ELECTRICAL SAFETY ACT 2002 - SECT 36

36 Duty of installer of electrical equipment or electrical installation
(1) This section applies to a person (the installer) who installs electrical equipment or an electrical installation.

(2) The installer must ensure that—

(a) the way the electrical equipment or installation is installed is electrically safe; and
(b ) the processes followed for installing the electrical equipment or installation ensure that, when installed, it will be electrically safe; and
(c ) after the electrical equipment or installation is installed, the person tests and examines it to ensure it is electrically safe.


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## Zorco

Sobering no?


----------



## Zorco

And to address Camo's point

Queensland Consolidated Acts

[Index] 

[Search] [Search this Act] [Notes] [Noteup] [Previous] [Next] [Download] [Help]
ELECTRICAL SAFETY ACT 2002 - SECT 55

55 Requirement for electrical work licence
(1) A person must not perform or supervise electrical work unless—

(a) the person is the holder of an electrical work licence in force under this Act; and
(b ) the licence authorises the person to perform the work.
Maximum penalty—400 penalty units.

(2) Only an individual may be the holder of an electrical work licence.

(3) A person is not required under subsection (1) to hold an electrical work licence for the purpose of the following—

(a) performance or supervision of electrical work for the purpose of installing or repairing telecommunications cabling;
(b ) performance or supervision of electrical work in practising the person's profession as an electrical engineer;
(c ) performance or supervision of remote rural installation work;
(d) performance or supervision of electrical work as part of the testing of electrical equipment that the person is authorised to do under a regulation;
(e) performance, as an apprentice, of electrical work in a calling that requires the apprentice to perform electrical work;
(f) performance, as a trainee, of electrical work in a calling that requires the trainee to perform electrical work of a type prescribed under a regulation;
(g) performance, as a student, of electrical work as part of training under the supervision of teaching staff at—
a university; or
a college, school or similar institution conducted or approved by a department of the State or of the Commonwealth.


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## Zorco

Derrick, it is probable you are not licensed to help George.

The reality is that there are DIY PID installations almost daily and I'm sure that with your help George will end up with something.

George, Electrical engineering is my profession and I love it. Frustration is overcome by knowledge and understanding.

I still hope you buy a low energy power supply (like the one I sent you the link to) and play safely.

Think of it as playing with a mouse, if you do something wrong you might get a tiny scratch.

If you continue with this 230V endeavour, you're playing with a wild dog and if you do something wrong you're getting the teeth.

Be safe mate, I really want to learn how to make mead.

I just bought a two super hive.

And clearly your mead is effective. Derrick lost his grounding for a while there...Or did I mean parallel fault current return path???

(I'll be adding a conductor to my SSR heatsink !)


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## SBOB

And with that, my dog has decided to give no more electrical advice to George (who didn't actually thank my dog for fixing his electrical drawing.. Not even a schmako) . 

There are points in your 'neighbours' replies that are just bad practice when it comes to electrical design and I can't be bothered typing for my dog any more


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## Zorco

I have an English barleywine that will be bottled in about two weeks. I'd like to thank your dog for his correct drawing by sending him one?

It should be nice in a few months when he has recovered from his hangover. 
PM me the address of your dog's kennel.


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## Camo6

Nice references Cosdog. They should be made a sticky in the DIY sub forum.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, thanks for playing everyone.

If there's one thing we've learnt about electrical DIY on a beer forum it's this:

Ask your questions via PM. Hahaha!


----------



## Zorco

SBOB said:


> And with that, my dog has decided to give no more electrical advice to George (who didn't actually thank my dog for fixing his electrical drawing.. Not even a schmako) .
> 
> There are points in your 'neighbours' replies that are just bad practice when it comes to electrical design and I can't be bothered typing for my dog any more


Confirmation: Avatar checks out.


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## SBOB

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> I have an English barleywine that will be bottled in about two weeks. I'd like to thank your dog for his correct drawing by sending him one?
> 
> It should be nice in a few months when he has recovered from his hangover.
> PM me the address of your dog's kennel.


my dog thanks you


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## SCR29

Interesting reading, in a much simplified circuit not being 100% familiar with the inkbird but in relation to the mentioned contactor. Other than the initial on/start up switch could you use the pid as the switch through a contactor to the element instead of the SSR.


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## Camo6

The PID cycles the element too frequently to employ a mechanical contactor. Premature failure of the contactor would be an issue I'd think.


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## SCR29

Thanks for speedy reply was just about to scratch/answer my own question after further researching my ponderings


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## Bogan333

Hi All,

Update change of plans, I how will be copying the http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/ design.

Just with small changes, needs to be 240v rating and along with three elements and three pumps also with a Voltage Regulator Dimmer to each pump so I can control the speed and on the the boiler element this will help to prevent boil over

The panel will be build in a PC case, My German friend will not be supervisioning, I will build it to spec than hand it over to a qualified electrician for testing.


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## Zorco

Good onya George. Let us know how you get on.


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## Camo6

You're probably all ready on to it George, but be sure to read the 240V section in the Electric Brewery Forum. Oh, and stop feeding Derrick that mead. It brings out the German in him...


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## Bogan333

Update

Getting close to building my electric brew panel.

It is only going to have 2200w elements, one in boiler one in the RIMS tube and the other in the HTL. one element will be on at any one time.

There will be three pumps along with 4000W 240V AC SCR Voltage Regulator Dimmer Electric Motor Speed Controller to each pump and one to the boiler element.


I have most parts now just waiting on these ones to come through the post

Three Green Pilot lights
Three Yellow Pilot lights
Two Supply Transformer
Six 3 Pin Plug Round Socket Power Adapter

It will be built in Full PC Case where the PC fans will come in to play, plus future upgrades by using the USB's to connect to a laptop

This is based on http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/


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## Bogan333

Update

This will be the biggest hurdle wire up this bad boy.


----------

