# A 25 Minute Mash At 70c



## Nick JD (31/3/10)

Here's one of those experimental brews that shits the purists  . 

I cooked up 1.5kg of candi syrup and thought - to hell with it - it can all go into one brew. But I'll need some seriously hot mashing to compliment all that sugaz. 

At 70C, virtually the whole mash has blown its wad in about 20 minutes. 

So here's a 25 minute mash. 

Strike temperatre of 74C (it's on its way down when I took the photo).







Dump in the grains (2.8kg of ale malt).






Give it a quick mash up and lid and insulate the pot. Note the time.






Time to come out (alarm going off).






Temperature after sparging and heat applied to pot.






Hydrometer is at 1.028ish.






That's 14L of 1.055 liquor done in 25 minutes. 

Here's some of that sugary goodness that's went into the wort after 60 minutes of 20g of Southern Cross and 7g of Nelson at 10 minutes. 

The candy syrup is on its way again (very, very slowly to "soft crack") after a 30 minute addition of 500g extra sugar. You can get awsome caramelisation by forcing it to sit well under "hard crack" (between soft ball and soft crack) for a long time without risking burning. It's a cheat's way to darken up candy syrup without that freakout caramelisation period of 60 seconds ... burnt.






Delicious and toffeeeee.


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## manticle (31/3/10)

Is this your caramel brew?

I was reading today over some trappist websites - can't remember which one it was (maybe westmalle) that was mashing around 70 degrees. They also add sugar as you probably know. Fairly sure their mash time was longer but similarities nonetheless.

Just checked and it is Westmalle - 73 deg C although I don't know if they step it up to that with a multi-rest mash. They then mash out at 78.


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## Nick JD (31/3/10)

manticle said:


> Is this your caramel brew?



Nup - just a mishmash brew. It still freaks me out when I bung the hydrometer in and it reads that high after 25 minutes. 

Interesting stuff about the hot mashing...


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## MarkBastard (31/3/10)

Just for curiosities sake.

If you mash high but with a smaller grain bill, then compliment with dextrose such that you have a similar amount of unfermentable sugar to a lower temperature mash, and similar OG and FG, what are the negatives?

Not for the perfectionists, but is this an option for partial brewers? Mash smaller grain bill so can do it in a smaller pot. Maybe save some money. Save some time by mashing for 25 minutes. Plenty of positives there for non-perfectionists. So what would the negatives be?


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## MHB (31/3/10)

Ok so I'm a purist and this is why; you have got a whopping 45% efficiency

For an extra 30-60 minutes you could get twice as much beer for the same cost. Well the same grain bill and another 1 Kg of sugar think I'll stick with a slightly longer mash thanks.

MHB


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## RetsamHsam (31/3/10)

MHB said:


> Ok so I'm a purist and this is why; you have got a whopping 45% efficiency
> 
> For an extra 30-60 minutes you could get twice as much beer for the same cost. Well the same grain bill and another 1 Kg of sugar think I'll stick with a slightly longer mash thanks.
> 
> MHB



I don't think the Candy sugar has been added at the timethe hydrometer reading was taken.. I might be wrong


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## Nick JD (31/3/10)

MHB said:


> Ok so I'm a purist and this is why; you have got a whopping 45% efficiency
> 
> For an extra 30-60 minutes you could get twice as much beer for the same cost. Well the same grain bill and another 1 Kg of sugar – think I'll stick with a slightly longer mash thanks.
> 
> MHB



2.8kg grain in 14L = 1.055 = 45%? 

Methinks "delete post" might be your best option, judicious retailer ...


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## Nick JD (31/3/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Just for curiosities sake.
> 
> If you mash high but with a smaller grain bill, then compliment with dextrose such that you have a similar amount of unfermentable sugar to a lower temperature mash, and similar OG and FG, what are the negatives?
> 
> Not for the perfectionists, but is this an option for partial brewers? Mash smaller grain bill so can do it in a smaller pot. Maybe save some money. Save some time by mashing for 25 minutes. Plenty of positives there for non-perfectionists. So what would the negatives be?



The negatives are people jump to conclusions. That aside:

I think the heavy sugars (more than 4 carbons long) probably won't outweigh the "thinness" of the end-product of the candy sugar being fermented. I think you'd need to caramelise the hell out of it to equal a no-sugar mash of 66+C. I think this will still be a low FG beer. That's cool though. 

From what I can see mashing high gives you more complex sugars, but it can't make up for the ratios I've got here. :icon_cheers:

That said - my aim here was to indicate that the first fifteen minutes of a warm mash is where the action is.


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## manticle (31/3/10)

I'd be interested to see how you fare with the sugar addition. As I posted recently in another thread, I added too much candi sugar all at once to a couple of Belgian brews and got a lot of fusels and some banana action. One of them settled a bit with ageing but I've been playing around with the idea of adding small quantities at a time after primary.

I have a dubbel conditioning in my fridge done this way - promises to be the best dubbel attempt I've made.


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## leeboy (31/3/10)

Ive only skimmed over this but I read it as 2.8kg ale malt + 1.5kg candi syrup? Thats 4.3kg of fermentables. I think perhaps the point that MHB is trying to make is only getting 14L of 1055 is a fair chunk lower than the 20L I'd be hoping to get using 4.5kg of fermentables? Correct me if I'm off base here please....


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## Nick JD (31/3/10)

leeboy said:


> Ive only skimmed over this but I read it as 2.8kg ale malt + 1.5kg candi syrup? Thats 4.3kg of fermentables. I think perhaps the point that MHB is trying to make is only getting 14L of 1055 is a fair chunk lower than the 20L I'd be hoping to get using 4.5kg of fermentables? Correct me if I'm off base here please....



Yes. The 1.055 of 14L is *BEFORE* the candi syrup is added like the OP shows - obviously my mentioning the candi syrup initially made some people a bit confused - my apologies.  It's a 24L brew.

I don't have the software, but I'm guessing that 2.8kg --> 14L of 1.055 is freakin' awesome efficiency.


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## Nick JD (31/3/10)

manticle said:


> I'd be interested to see how you fare with the sugar addition. As I posted recently in another thread, I added too much candi sugar all at once to a couple of Belgian brews and got a lot of fusels and some banana action. One of them settled a bit with ageing but I've been playing around with the idea of adding small quantities at a time after primary.
> 
> I have a dubbel conditioning in my fridge done this way - promises to be the best dubbel attempt I've made.



I'll get back to you, Manticle. I have no flash yeast though - just T-58 and it'll be at <20C with all that sugaz.


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## MHB (31/3/10)

Clearly I was confused, reading the captions made me think that you put 2.8 Kg in 25 minutes later the hydrometer is reading 1.028 and you have 14 Litres, that's about a 45% yield. Hadn't realised the 1.055 was without the sugar.

My apologies, taking the numbers you provided at face value I mistakenly thought you got a low (~45%), not a startlingly high, over 85% yield, and in just 25 minutes, yes that's a "freakin' awesome efficiency", incredible in fact.

MHB


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## zoidbergmerc (1/4/10)

**** I love Nick JD, he's amazingly brutal.



NickJD said:


> Methinks "delete post" might be your best option



I lold


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## Nick JD (1/4/10)

MHB said:


> Clearly I was confused, reading the captions made me think that you put 2.8 Kg in 25 minutes later the hydrometer is reading 1.028 and you have 14 Litres, that's about a 45% yield. Hadn't realised the 1.055 was without the sugar.
> 
> My apologies, taking the numbers you provided at face value I mistakenly thought you got a low (~45%), not a startlingly high, over 85% yield, and in just 25 minutes, yes that's a "freakin' awesome efficiency", incredible in fact.
> 
> MHB



Sorry, mate - I was a bit harsh. Looking at some literature, it seems I would have got over 70% efficiency in a mash of 10-12 minutes at 70C. At 65C you'll still get 3/4 of you efficiency figure in the first 15 minutes. 

At 70C, in 15 minutes 61.2% of the sugaz are extracted, and 40.9% of these are fermentable. 
At 70C, in 180 minutes 63.6% of the sugaz are extracted, and 42.7% of these are fermentable. 

At 65C, in 15 minutes 60.6% of the sugaz are extracted, and 44.2% of these are fermentable. 
At 65C, in 180 minutes 63.6% of the sugaz are extracted, and 51.7% of these are fermentable. 

I figure I need to be careful with strike temperature and maintaining this temperature accurately for ten minutes. After that it's not so important - but this may be the difference between an award-winning beer and a great beer.


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## Ross (1/4/10)

Nick JD said:


> That said - my aim here was to indicate that the first fifteen minutes of a warm mash is where the action is.



I thought it was common knowledge that the 1st 15 minutes are the most critical, & with the super fine crush you use in BIAB I wouldn't think any knowledgeable brewer would expect results any different to what you acheived, so not sure what the "shits the purists" comment refers to? The only downfall to such a short mash is the possibility of unconverted grain (causing haze in the final beer) which can easily be checked for with an iodine test.
Nice to see you putting theory into practice though & reporting your results...

cheers Ross


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## brendo (1/4/10)

the other factor here is also that enzyme activity is faster in the conversion process at the higher end of the scale of mash temps - 68-70 than the lower end 60-63.

Typically, if I am mashing low, I will extend my mash time to aide conversion, but not be so concerned at the higher end.

+1 for a starch test too.

interested to see how it turns out post fermentation.

Cheers,

Brendo


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## Bribie G (1/4/10)

Under the guidance of the late Butters I always mash my UK milds at 70 degrees for around 50 mins, a couple of them have gained placings in comps - the FG usually ends up around 1019. However never gone as low as 25 minutes, but if the iodine test comes out ok, then a useful experiment.


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## Phoney (1/4/10)

What happened to Butters anyway?


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## Nick JD (1/4/10)

Ross said:


> ... any knowledgeable brewer would expect results any different to what you acheived...



Not all members of this forum are as knowlegable as you - most (like me) are only just becoming aware of what they are doing. I think this might answer your query.


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## Nick JD (1/4/10)

brendo said:


> Typically, if I am mashing low, I will extend my mash time to aide conversion, but not be so concerned at the higher end.



True dat. At 62C, I let it go for 2 hours.


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## Steve (1/4/10)

Nick JD said:


> Not all members of this forum are as knowlegable as you - most (like me) are only just becoming aware of what they are doing. I think this might answer your query.




Im not as knowledgeable as others but I also thought that it was common knowledge that the first 15-20 mins was "where the action was at". Remember reading it several times, when searching through old threads, before getting into partial mashes and then AG. Nice little experiment though by the way.
Cheers
Steve


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## bcp (1/4/10)

Nick JD said:


> Here's one of those experimental brews that shits the purists  .



The western frontier of brewing
What you have to understand about NickJD is that plowing new ground is part of his psyche. He's like a leading edge brewer (see note below). He doesn't yet have the experience of the best brewers here, but if he keeps going we'll all probably learn something. Part of that motivation is to stick it to the establishment - I'm sure it isn't personal - if there was no 'establishment' to react to, he'd probably be trying to create a revolution in something else. And it should end in some good brews rather than arthritis.

:lol: Illustration meant in fun!
_"The toads on the western frontier of their advance have evolved larger legs; this is thought to be related to their ability to travel farther. As a consequence of their longer legs, larger bodies, and faster movement, about 10% of the leading edge Cane Toads have also developed arthritis. It is estimated that Cane Toads migrate at an average of 40 kilometres (25 mi) per year."
http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cane-Toad
_


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## levin_ae92 (1/4/10)

Nick JD said:


> I think the heavy sugars (more than 4 carbons long)



Hi Nick, 

I love reading all your posts about your experiments, and you convinced me to give BIAB a go!! 

One small picky point tho is that all sugars are more than 4 carbons long, in fact all sugars are 6 or more carbons 'long', and even long is the wrong wor because alot of them are rings. Sorry, just one of those niggly things. Of course unless you meant heavy sugars are those that are bigger than 4 monosaccharide units long then disregard what I said!!

Cheers, Colby


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## drsmurto (1/4/10)

Nick JD said:


> Not all members of this forum are as knowlegable as you - most (like me) are only just becoming aware of what they are doing. I think this might answer your query.



Have you read Palmers - How to Brew?

A text that all brewers should read before taking the AG plunge.



> As always, time changes everything; it is the final factor in the mash. Starch conversion may be complete in only 30 minutes, so that during the remainder of a 60 minute mash, the brewer is working the mash conditions to produce the desired profile of wort sugars. Depending on the mash pH, water ratio and temperature, the time required to complete the mash can vary from under 30 minutes to over 90. *At a higher temperature, a stiffer mash and a higher pH, the alpha amylase is favored and starch conversion will be complete in 30 minutes or less.* Longer times at these conditions will allow the beta amylase time to breakdown more of the longer sugars into shorter ones, resulting in a more fermentable wort, but these alpha-favoring conditions are deactivating the beta; such a mash is self-limiting.



EDIT - spelling


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## Nick JD (1/4/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Have you read Palmers - How to Brew?



Yes. A great text - my only fault with it is it tries to be both simple and in-depth at once. 

I got this idea from _Brewing Science and Practice_ from Table 4.6 on page 124. 

I'm not in a hurry or anything, I just wanted to see if it worked.


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## Nick JD (1/4/10)

levin_ae92 said:


> Hi Nick,
> 
> I love reading all your posts about your experiments, and you convinced me to give BIAB a go!!
> 
> ...



Yeah - that's the one! 4 glucoses long.  Cheers.


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## manticle (1/4/10)

Interesting about high temp versus short time too. I'm just about to start experiemnting with the opposite - high temps but longer mash time which I think is traditional with some English ales to get a malty beer that will still attenuate.


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## Nick JD (2/4/10)

manticle said:


> Interesting about high temp versus short time too. I'm just about to start experiemnting with the opposite - high temps but longer mash time which I think is traditional with some English ales to get a malty beer that will still attenuate.



Wouldn't it be super important to keep your eye on your mash temperature over a hot mash, long period? I'm thinking if your mash temperature was 70C for the first hour and then fell off down to cooler mash temperatures you'd want to hope you'd destroyed your beta amylase at the start because they'll start chopping up all your long chain sugaz. 

I'm guessing, but if a mash starts at 70C and ends three hours later at 62C ... will it have the same sugaz as a 3 hour mash at 62C? 

If one doesn't have great mash tun insulation or heating capabilities and wants to mash high - is it not best to make it quick?


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## manticle (2/4/10)

I guess that's the point though - to find a balance between longer sugars and shorter ones to get the malt and dryness balanced. I think maintaining temp within a degree or two is probably important though.

Obviously if you get exactly the same result in 25 mins then that's easier. I'm not sure (and I mean I'm not sure - not just being a doubting thomas) if they'll both make the mash behave the same way. I need to do much more reading on it and trying out different techniques.

I've only tried one 90 minute mash at higher temps (2 more over the weekend scheduled) for an ESB type and it seemed to attenuate well - 68 degrees, 1055-ish wort down to about 1012, malty without being overly cloying.

The attenutation of how yours turns out will be interesting - hopefully she gets to where you want.


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## Nick JD (2/4/10)

manticle said:


> The attenutation of how yours turns out will be interesting - hopefully she gets to where you want.



It's got so much sugar in there I have a feeling it'll finish like a K&K.


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## Thirsty Boy (2/4/10)

In your experiment you are mashing in pretty much exactly the way large sugar adjunct breweries (ie all the large breweries) have in Australia for the last century or so.

You will find that if you mash this way - assuming of course you keep an eye out to make sure you have complete conversion - you change your paradigm. You leave your mash temperature the same in each brew... and control fermentability via a combination of increasing and decreasing mash time; and differing the proportion (and perhaps type) of sugar adjunct you use.

If you are organized, it could be a perfectly fine way to brew and get really quite fine control over your fermentability.

For instance you could... For *every* brew.

Get 15% of your extract from sucrose
Mash at 70 degrees
Mash out

Then just change your mash time to adjust your fermentability. No need to try to hit different temps, just learn how to hit one accurately every time. But it will take a little skill, you have to be snappy with stuff, or at least do it the same every time. Time is your variable, so if you dawdle you change your beer.

In this sort of scenario, you pretty much _need_ to use a sugar adjunct - and you will get better control if you use a malt with a high alpha amylase to beta amylase ratio, which makes them more stable with respect to temperature variations - and a malt that tends towards unfermentability too. Schooner leaps to mind but there are others. I would also consider constant agitation of the mash tun, which will help to ensure complete conversion - you are only mashing for a short time, standing there and stirring it becomes a semi workable proposition.

Its a valid way to brew - the majority of beer brewed in this country is brewed that way - If it works for you then why the hell not? If it doesn't, you had a little fun and learned a thing or two with your experiment.

PS - a long mash at 70 would absolutely NOT give the same result as a long mash at 62. Enzymes are heat liable - Beta am much more so than Alpha. Which is why hot mashes work to give unfermentable wort. Sorry but its back to basics for you Nick... start at the start on this stuff, not at that graph. That post says to me that you have missed or at least partially misunderstood a very fundamental basic of mashing theory.


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## Nick JD (2/4/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> PS - a long mash at 70 would absolutely NOT give the same result as a long mash at 62. Enzymes are heat liable - Beta am much more so than Alpha. Which is why hot mashes work to give unfermentable wort.



Cheers, Thirsty.

A couple of questions:

1. So _all_ of the grain's beta amylase is denatured at 70C? 

2. Beta amylase can not break down the longer molecule products of alpha amylase?

3. If the ratio of extract to fermentable extract progresses linearly over time (if we assume the table is correct) - how does one increase fermentability by increasing mash length at 70C? Seems to me you'd just have more of both (ferm and unferm) as the ratio doesn't change. Or have I misunderstood this, "Then just change your mash time to adjust your fermentability."


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## Thirsty Boy (4/4/10)

*1* - No, not all of it, not instantly at any rate - but at a temp as high as 70 degrees, your Beta Amylase activity would be heading towards zero in a matter of a few minutes. I snipped this graph out of the Braukaiser site, not sure where he pinched it from but I strongly suspect that a graph similar to it would appear in Brewing Science and Practice (cant be arsed looking in there to see though)







So as you can see, at 70 - All the Beta has had the dick inside of 15 or so minutes. Mind you, at that high a temperature it is working at a god almighty rate for the little while it is still kicking.

*2* - Beta Amylayse can and does break down the hydrolysation products of Alpha Amylase - the synergy between the two processes is why mashing works as well as it does. Its why starch tests aren't the be all and end all of mash activity. Yes, even at lower temperatures a mash might no longer contain any free unconverted starch... but that doesn't mean it is static. Beta amylase is still working on the dextrins... Alpha amylase is still working on the dextrins.

Which leads us to your third question

*3* - I cocked that one up. You are correct, at higher temps the fermentability profile stays relatively the same over time. You can adjust fermentability via mash time... but it works for lower temp mashes (usually stepped) not high ones. In the case of a "Single & High" mash temperature, you would get your control over fermentability by adjusting the % or type of adjunct - not the mash time at all. Sorry about that, glad you asked for clarification.

Have a read of this section of the Braukaiser site - its a great summary of mash theory and will prime you nicely for the stuff you will encounter in the Briggs text (in fact probably better in a lot of ways)

Sorry to lead you astray there, got carried away by my own cleverness and wandered off into the land of bulldust. Kaiser will set you right though - he really does know what he's on about.

TB


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## Nick JD (4/4/10)

Thanks, Thirsty. I nearly understand it now. 

Which leads me to the next hypothetical:

If I was to mash at say, 68C in a totally un-insulated mash tun for 60 minutes that dropped about a degree every ten minutes (ending at 62C), what would the sugaz profile be like? 

Highly fermentable?


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## Nick JD (9/4/10)

Here's the beer from the 25 minute mash.






24L
3kg BB Ale Malt
1.7kg Candy Syrup
20g Manuka Honey
20g Southern Cross 50 minutes
7g Nelson Sauvin 10 minutes
10g Nelson Sauvin dry
T-58 at 22C

Very citrusy and quite a bit of body considering all that sugaz. Bloody yummy actually :blink: .

Next time I will lower the sugaz (and the alcohol!) a bit and use US05.


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## A3k (9/4/10)

What was your final gravity?
How does the Nelson go with the T-58

Cheers,
Al


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## Nick JD (9/4/10)

A3k said:


> What was your final gravity?
> How does the Nelson go with the T-58
> 
> Cheers,
> Al



I didn't take a final gravity. 

Nelson with the T-58 is very citrusy, which is unusual because with S04 I find it really stone-fruity.


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## manticle (9/4/10)

Nick JD said:


> I didn't take a final gravity.
> 
> Nelson with the T-58 is very citrusy, which is unusual because with S04 I find it really stone-fruity.



The attenuation was the bit I was most interested in. I can't taste your beer from here so I need some other information.


Hydrometers CAN be useful sometimes Nick.


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## Ross (9/4/10)

Is that chill or yeast haze Nick?

Cheers Ross


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## neonmeate (9/4/10)

this short mashing at high temps has in fact been around for a while (Hoch(high)-Kurz(short))

ive done numerous 20 min mashes at 68-69 like this and it's always been fine

http://www.draymans.com/articles/arts/14.html


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## Nick JD (9/4/10)

manticle said:


> The attenuation was the bit I was most interested in. I can't taste your beer from here so I need some other information.
> 
> 
> Hydrometers CAN be useful sometimes Nick.



Sorry mate. I'll bang the hydro in a beer and edit this post.

1.014 (although that includes the 0.5% of priming alcohol).


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## Nick JD (9/4/10)

Ross said:


> Is that chill or yeast haze Nick?
> 
> Cheers Ross



Both, Ross - but more yeast, she's young still but no gelatin or polyclar.


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## Nick JD (9/4/10)

neonmeate said:


> this short mashing at high temps has in fact been around for a while (Hoch(high)-Kurz(short))
> 
> ive done numerous 20 min mashes at 68-69 like this and it's always been fine
> 
> http://www.draymans.com/articles/arts/14.html



Interesting article.


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## Bribie G (9/4/10)

Yes very interesting, especially with the low enzyme well modified UK malts, I understand that our BB ale malt, for example, has about three times the diastatic power of Maris Otter and is thus packing heaps of enzymes, and a lot of the UK malts are flat out taking any adjuncts whatsoever - a good indication that they should not be mashed at over 66 degrees, according to the article. So my high mashing at around 68 for Yorkshire bitters is probably resulting in poor efficiency when using Maris Otter or Halcyon etc. 

Here's a radical idea, I wonder how it would go to mash half a grain bill of high enzyme malt like BB ale at a high temperature then dough in the other half of Maris Otter or Golden Promise when the temp has dropped to the point that the dough-in would result in a temp of 65 degrees? Would this mean that the BB would do what the MO is unable to do, then the MO would go on and do what it does best?


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## bradsbrew (9/4/10)

BribieG said:


> Yes very interesting, especially with the low enzyme well modified UK malts, I understand that our BB ale malt, for example, has about three times the diastatic power of Maris Otter and is thus packing heaps of enzymes, and a lot of the UK malts are flat out taking any adjuncts whatsoever - a good indication that they should not be mashed at over 66 degrees, according to the article. So my high mashing at around 68 for Yorkshire bitters is probably resulting in poor efficiency when using Maris Otter or Halcyon etc.
> 
> Here's a radical idea, I wonder how it would go to mash half a grain bill of high enzyme malt like BB ale at a high temperature then dough in the other half of Maris Otter or Golden Promise when the temp has dropped to the point that the dough-in would result in a temp of 65 degrees? Would this mean that the BB would do what the MO is unable to do, then the MO would go on and do what it does best?



Does this mean I can stop bashing my head against the brick wall when telling brewers that you can make a nice stout with BB Ale especially when you overdose it with oats, black and roasted barley <_<


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## Bribie G (9/4/10)

Yes, good old BB. I'd always discounted it as a poor cousin to the UK malts but as you say it's got some muscle - from now on I'll be using it for all my chewy beers like stouts, brown ales and milds. Especially milds, with a bit of Munich etc to boost the malt character.


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## NickB (9/4/10)

I've been a big fan of the BB malts for quite a while. The Ale is a really good all-rounder, and (as I'm sure you're aware Bribie) the galaxy is great when used alone, and especially so with a high adjunct percentage (like my 33% Rice CAP).

Back OT however.... Very tempted to try this 25 min mash on my next mild to see just what, if any, difference it makes.....



Cheers

PS: Brad - I know for a fact that you can make a cracking stout with BB Ale. In fact, I've done a couple with BB Galaxy which have been great....


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