# Caramalt & Extract Brew



## Jase71 (8/11/08)

I'm thinking about doing a partial extract beer for my third round into the craft, and, well, throwing some ideas together. Would love some feedback from some of the more experienced members...... 

Ok, here goes: 

1kg Morgans Caramalt Goo
1.5kg Coopers LDME
500grams Dextrose
250grams Maltodextrine
250grams cracked crystal grain
Hopped with either Cascade, Fuggles or Saaz pellets
S-04 yeast - recycled from the last batch

The maltodextrine & dextrose component is included simply because I have a fair bit of it, and want to use what I already have in the cupboard. I am not intending to buy any other hop varieties for the time being, so the above list is my present limitation. 

I'm also wondering whether the crystal grain flavour would be buried under the Caramalt flavours - and therefore if so, perhaps this is not a necesarry addition. 

Cheers, 

Jase


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## buttersd70 (8/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> I'm thinking about doing a partial extract beer for my third round into the craft, and, well, throwing some ideas together. Would love some feedback from some of the more experienced members......
> 
> Ok, here goes:
> 
> ...


jase....slightly pissed atm, so let me know if i make no sense....
the crystal and the caramalt will blend well, adding complexity. It's one of those things where you think that the cara hides the crystal, until you taste one with just cara or just crystal...then you pick the difference. I would leave it with both.

For this, I would bitter with fuggle, flavour with cascade at 0.75-1g/L, and f/o with 0.5-0.75g/L.....2c. Bitter it to OGx0.65 IBU, perfic best bitter.


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## Gavo (9/11/08)

Jase, so we can help you further you will need to tell us what you want your final volume to be and what volume you can boil.



Cheers
Gavo.


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## Jase71 (9/11/08)

buttersd70 said:


> jase....slightly pissed atm, so let me know if i make no sense....



Yes I read about your valiant session, good to see you're making such personal sacrifices for your art. :icon_cheers: Cheers for the feedback, are you suggesting cascade as a finishing hop... 

Gav, probably aiming for around 22litres. I can boil about 8 litres at a time on my stovetop, although I could use two pots simultaneously and bring that figure up to around 12litres.


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## Gavo (9/11/08)

Jase you must have been reading my mind as I punched those figures into beersmith this morning. An 8 litre boil and 22 litre batch was exactly what I put in. I have been doing mine at a 20 litre batch as this gives me two slabs plus 1 - 2 tasters (I box my stubbies back up for conditioning).

Anyhow this is what I get after decifering what Butters wrote after his scientific testing session, good work Butters. :icon_cheers: 

I have added the ingredients as you have listed apart from the multidextrine and I come up with an SG of 1047 and estimate of 1012 FG ABV estimate of 4.54%

If you can boil 8 litres then boil the Crystal malt (after steeping) with the caramalt and add all of the other fermentables after the boil. (LDME and DEX and the Multodextrine if you really want to use it, I would skip the malto and yes I know you want to use it up).

Pour the lot into the fermenter (strain the hops if you wish) add ice and cold water to cool to pitching temp. This is what I have done and works fine.

Hop schedule can be as simple as 40 grams of Fuggles at 60min and 15 grams of Cascade a 15min.

Cheers
Gavo.


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## buttersd70 (9/11/08)

Yeah, cascade for the flavour addition (15minutes), and again at the very end of the boil, just as it gets pulled off the stove. Some people find fuggle a bit grassy when used for the later additions, personaly I use it in the flavour addition with no issue, but it's a like it or leave it type of hop. I don't use it at flameout or for dry hopping for this reason.

As far as the boil is concerned, you don't need to boil all the ingredients...the hot and cold break is made and removed as part of the manufacturing process, and the liquids are sterile in their cans, so they really only need to be added right at the very end of the boil, and just mixed through. The dry ingredients need to be boiled for sanitation, although to be honest, how many people do when using the same ingredients for kit and kilo type brews? not many.

For an extract brew, you don't need to boil the full volume, unlike with an all grain. So you could get away with a single boil of 8L. I don't think you need the maltodextrin...without it, you would get an OG of [email protected], with an fg in the 1010-1012 region. With the maltodext, you would have OG around 1052, and fg around 1014-1016ish. Lets say for the time being, that it gets left out...

steep the grains, and use that water for the boil. Use 1kg of the malt, and make up to 8L. This would give a boil gravity of 1050. The BG doesnt need to be the same as the projected OG for the full volume, but it can make it a bit easier to do the calculations that way...You do the hopping in this pot, calculating how much hops neded for the full volume, but for the Boil gravity that is actually in the pot. In effect, you're making 8L of wort that is bitter enough for all 22L - in essence, producing your own kit. Then the rest of the malts and adjuncts are either added in towards the end, with just enough time to sanatise it, or alternatively are boiled in a second pot, with just enough water to boil it. The whole lot is then added to the fermenter, and topped up to the 22L mark, and voila. If you have the volume of hot/cold right, you can get away with not having to chill, and still hit pitching temps. If not, you will need to cool the boiled wort then add it to the fermenter, and top up with cold. (but if you use _cold _water for the topup, the boiled wort doesn't need to be cooled all the way, just enough to bring the whole lot to pitching temp.)

With the amount of hops, there are a few trains of thought....addition times vary, but a common schedule is 60 min for bittering, 15 min for flavour, and 0min for aroma. The shorter additions will add a bit of bitterness, but their main purpose is to add flavour and aroma, so a lot of brewers will set the weights of the last additions based on how much flavour and aroma they want, and then adjust the weight of the 60 minute addition only, in order to vary the bitterness level. For an english style, imo, 0.75g of hops per L of final volume will give a good amount of flavour for the style (which is much less than an american pale ale, for example). So I would set the 15min addition at 15g, and use probably 10-12g for the 0 min addition. Then I would add whatever weight is needed to the 60min addition to achieve the right IBU. (which depends on the Alpha% of the hops, and the boil gravity.) The total IBU required depends on how bitter you want the beer, but the IBU number itself doesn't tell much as far as how it balances the beer....thats where BUGU comes in, which is the ratio of IBU vs OG....the more (malt) sugar in the beer, the more IBU required to give it the same relative bitterness. For an English Bitter, 0.65 is a good ratio, so multiply OG by 0.65, and thats how many IBU to add....this can be tweaked to taste.

If you need any help on the bittering calculations, just whistle. 

Edit: Gavo just posted at exactly the same time as me, and must have been reading my bloody mind. So thats what the voices in my head are....


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## Gavo (9/11/08)

buttersd70 said:


> Edit: Gavo just posted at exactly the same time as me, and must have been reading my bloody mind. So thats what the voices in my head are....



:lol: Gold, watch out I am haunting you. You have taught me well.

Just tasted a my English special bitter yesterday only one week in the bottle, couldn't wait. little malty, I used EKG and a touch of NS for 60min the EKG for 30min. Next time I will add a small 15min addition for a little hop flavor.

Cheers
Gavo :icon_cheers:


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## Jase71 (9/11/08)

Guys, much apreciated ! And Butter, thanks for the number crunching. While Ive had many beers in my time (Im always partial to trying something new when I go up to the bottleshop), I can't recall ever having any English beers, so I'm a bit in the drak as to what flavours the fuggles might bring to the glass. However based on reading some of the flavour characteristics, and woking on the idea that my recipe is probably going to have elements of sweetness, Ive got nothing to lose. And it's all a learning curve. Just bottled my second batch today, so I'll have to wait a couple of weeks to get some more empties in order. So the pitching date on this Caramalt recipe's likely going to be next Saturday. 

As an aside, I cracked a bottle of my first batch today with SWMBO, it was Coopers Wheat with Wheat Malt and bloody hell, we unanimously agreed it was outstanding, after just one week's bottle conditioning. Perhaps a little underhopped (dry hopped three days before bottling), but really clean & fresh tasting. The real session on that will begin in another couple of weeks, after a bit more time in the dark. 

So let's talk about yeast....... I've reserved about 300ml of trub today (from a coopers draught), into a plastic bottle, topped it with distilled water and popped it in the fridge. Will this be OK to pitch into the Caramalt brew ? Thinking of adding it to a litre or so of water the night before, and 'feeding it' a couple of carb drops (another redundant cupboard stock that I want to use up). It's Safale S-04.


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## Gavo (9/11/08)

No problem Jase, happy to pass along what I have learned here. You will just have to drink faster to free up more bottles.  Using the yeast in the way you have said sounds fine, check Chillers topic here on yeast farming. This is what I do and it works just fine. Even one re-use of your yeast lowers the price of each brew and give a little more "I did it myself satisfaction".

Cheers
Gavo.


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## buttersd70 (9/11/08)

No worries jase. S04 is....appropriaate for moving into the style. When more experienced, you have the fun of yeast experimentation, which will give you different emphasis on different ingredients in the brew. S04 for me is a little bit too 'neutral' in it;s flavour profile, but I think in your case thats a good thing; it will give you an itroduction to the style, and allow you to tweak to your own preferences from there.

Bear in mind, English beers are generally _much _lower in hop flavour than american ales, wheats, and euro styles....there is a much finer balance to them, and a lot of 'americancentric' brewers don't appreciate the subtlety of them. So go into the style (or any other style, for that matter) in an open minded way, because all too often, un-realised expectations are what ruins a perfectly good beer as much as anything else.


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## Jase71 (10/11/08)

gavo said:


> You will just have to drink faster to free up more bottles.


Gav I know, it's a burden I must shoulder reluctantly  . Actually, my local bottleshop (an independant store owned and run by an italian family) is fantastic for beer variety, so Im often up there chatting with one of the younger sons about stuff. AND we negotiated me a great case price on my supply of Schwelmer Pils (around $4.15 a bottle, where the single price is usually six bucks), it's quite an OK beer, but the 500ml swingtops are going to be indispensable. 



buttersd70 said:


> So go into the style (or any other style, for that matter) in an open minded way, because all too often, un-realised expectations are what ruins a perfectly good beer as much as anything else.


That's a very philosophical statement. But I agree with you. As with many aspects of things I do, it's difficult for me to stay on a straight path when there are variables available. In this case (being the making of BEER) there's such opportunities to go beyond simlpe kits and the associated restrictions, and it really doesnt seem like a whiole lot more work for anyone even mildy passionate about it. It is peers such as yourself and others that make the transition logical.


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## buttersd70 (10/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> That's a very philosophical statement. But I agree with you. As with many aspects of things I do, it's difficult for me to stay on a straight path when there are variables available. In this case (being the making of BEER) there's such opportunities to go beyond simlpe kits and the associated restrictions, and it really doesnt seem like a whiole lot more work for anyone even mildy passionate about it. It is peers such as yourself and others that make the transition logical.



Wheres the "blushing" smiley when you need it?


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## bconnery (10/11/08)

buttersd70 said:


> Bear in mind, English beers are generally _much _lower in hop flavour than american ales, wheats, and euro styles....there is a much finer balance to them, and a lot of 'americancentric' brewers don't appreciate the subtlety of them. So go into the style (or any other style, for that matter) in an open minded way, because all too often, un-realised expectations are what ruins a perfectly good beer as much as anything else.


This is as you say generally the case, but then again it doesn't have to be. A friend of mine who is known for an almost fanatical devotion to the hop vine, particularly on the US side had Well's bombadier handpumped from the cask recently and was amazed by the fresh hop character....



Jase71 said:


> Gav I know, it's a burden I must shoulder reluctantly  . Actually, my local bottleshop (an independant store owned and run by an italian family) is fantastic for beer variety, so Im often up there chatting with one of the younger sons about stuff. AND we negotiated me a great case price on my supply of Schwelmer Pils (around $4.15 a bottle, where the single price is usually six bucks), it's quite an OK beer, but the 500ml swingtops are going to be indispensable.


My dad drinks this a bit. Quite a nice beer and great bottles! Even now I keg I love these bottles. You can sometimes get it in smaller ones as well...



Jase71 said:


> That's a very philosophical statement. But I agree with you. As with many aspects of things I do, it's difficult for me to stay on a straight path when there are variables available. In this case (being the making of BEER) there's such opportunities to go beyond simlpe kits and the associated restrictions, and it really doesnt seem like a whiole lot more work for anyone even mildy passionate about it. It is peers such as yourself and others that make the transition logical.


Straight path? What for? There are no limits, go for it! To steal a part of a quote from someone's signature on here, making beer is not work!!!

With your stated recipe and yeast I'd use the Fuggles but a few English breweries are now finishing with Cascade so that would be an option. 
Some don't like Fuggles but I do, particularly when mixed with Goldings...

You could keep a similar recipe, use a more neutral yeast like us05 and put the Cascade in that, going all Fuggles for this...
All sorts of options really


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## buttersd70 (10/11/08)

bconnery said:


> This is as you say generally the case, but then again it doesn't have to be. A friend of mine who is known for an almost fanatical devotion to the hop vine, particularly on the US side had Well's bombadier handpumped from the cask recently and was amazed by the fresh hop character....



There are _always _exceptions, and as you said, they can be _very _good indeed....



> Straight path? What for? There are no limits, go for it! To steal a part of a quote from someone's signature on here, making beer is not work!!!


I missed the little bit about the 'straight path'  . I agree, there is no straight path. Think outside the box, use 'guides' as _guides_, not _gospel_. The beer I brewed last week was the first time in I don't know how long that I actually brewed within 'style guidlines'....and that was more a case of it just happened to fit, not because I was trying to _make _it fit.



> With your stated recipe and yeast I'd use the Fuggles but a few English breweries are now finishing with Cascade so that would be an option.
> Some don't like Fuggles but I do, particularly when mixed with Goldings...


I'm a fuggly fan too. Love it, particularly with styrian....which is why it would also go well with cascade to finish.



> You could keep a similar recipe, use a more neutral yeast like us05 and put the Cascade in that, going all Fuggles for this...
> All sorts of options really



A great idea. It's amazing what a single hop difference, or a differant yeast will make, even if the grain bill (or extract in this case) is identical. So many options, so little time.........


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## Jase71 (10/11/08)

.. to quote myself (ego driven as I am LOL) "it's _difficult_ for me to stay on a straight path" ...... basically suggested that I'm not interested in the 'add kit, throw in some sugar, beer done' concept. Therefore a site like this is perfect inspiration to experiment a lot. Hell, I might even come up with something unique one day. Although I would hope that someone steps in when I start suggesting hops pellets in an unwashed gym sock.


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## buttersd70 (10/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> Although I would hope that someone steps in when I start suggesting hops pellets in an unwashed gym sock.



reminds me of......"Mildred! Do you have any clean socks? I need something to strain my beer."

Classic Brian Murphy... :lol:


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## Jase71 (13/11/08)

Not even the crickets could be heard after that comment, Butters  

So I'm ready to roll this weekend, after I pick up a plastic tub to act as my ghetto cooling system. So to give myself a walk-through for my own sense of clarity, and open discussion for any last pointers, it shall proceed as follows (for a 22ltr finished wort): 

(1.) For The Malt Goodies: 

250grams cracked crystal grain in a saucepan, steeped in 4ltrs just-boiled water, for 30 minutes
Reserve the water, and re-steep in another 4ltrs just-boiled water (just to be sure I get the lot extracted!)
Strain husks out of liquid
Combine to make 8ltrs, then gradually add 1kg LDME to avoid clumping. Boil vigourously for 30 minutes to sterilise
Remove from heat, then add can of caramalt.
(2.) For the Hop 'Tea':

Boil 4ltrs water (in another pot)
Add 15grams Fuggles Pellets, boil for 60 minutes
Add 15grams Cascade Pellets, boil for 15 minutes
Add 10grams Cascade Pellets, take off heat
Let sit for 15 minutes, stirring occasionally

(3.) For the Wort

Add liquid (1.) & (2.) to fermenter
Add 500grams Dextrose & 700grams LDME (there will be NO maltodextrin!)
Stir the shit out of it
Add ice, cold water etc to bring the temp down
Top up to 22ltrs
(4.) For the Yeast

Starter prepared previous evening, approx 125ml recycled S-04 trub to 1ltr water, and a couple of carb drops.
Allowed to site at room temp in a PET bottle with an Oztops cap (air valve)
On pitching day, shake the yeast bottle gently and pour into wort
Providing I'm on the right path as outlined, I suppose the only question is on the hop preparation. Does the 15min addition go in 45 minutes after the first addition, or 60 minutes after (meaning that the first hop addition is actually boiling for 75 minutes) . I'm inclined to look at this as total boil time being 60 minutes.......


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## Gavo (13/11/08)

Go for it Jase. Just to add my 2c I would boil the liquid from the crystal with the LDME in 8 litres, and check to make sure its 8 litres, for 60 min adding the hops to this. you are going to get better hop utilization and will have to do only one boil. Add the caramalt at the end of the boil just mix it in. Good to see no multodextrine as you won't need it.

Cheers
Gavo.

Edit: Just noticed the Hop addition question. 60 min mean 60 minutes from the end of the boil and 15 min means 15 minutes from the end of the boil, so a 15 min would be 45 after the 60 min addition. Hope that makes some sense.


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## np1962 (13/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> (3.) For the Wort
> 
> Add liquid (1.) & (2.) to fermenter
> Add 500grams Dextrose & 700grams LDME (there will be NO maltodextrin!)
> ...



Jase,
From what I understand the stirring to remove shit should be done after cooling the wort. Should avoid aerating hot wort.

Nige


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## buttersd70 (13/11/08)

NigeP62 said:


> Jase,
> From what I understand the stirring to remove shit should be done after cooling the wort. Should avoid aerating hot wort.
> 
> Nige



You don't want to aerate the hot wort as nige said...but some ldme is a bastard to disolve in cold water. I would suggest add the ldme to the hot pot right at the end, jsut before coming off the stove, that way you should be able to stir it gently to disolve in about 30 seconds....dex on the other hand will disolve if you look at it wrong, so that can go in hot or cold.


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## Jase71 (14/11/08)

Ok, have taken this on board, don't over-agitate the hot wort. Being that I've read that cold wort needs to be aerated, I can see now why people want to chill their concentrated boil down quickly. And Ive a 2kg block of ice ready for that very purpose. 

Just measured out the pot's capacity, whilst it may be 8ltrs filled to the lip, in reality it's only able to hold 6ltrs with enough headspace to be a comfortable working vessel. Personally apart from the grain steep & the hop infusion, I can't see why capacity is essential. Don't know the figures (or the scientific terminology) with it, but with many plant-material aqueous or solvent extractions, the main point to consider is how much of the target alkaloid, or in this case malt, can remain suspended in the liquid before it reaches capacity extraction, then potentially having your remaining material partly unextracted. With cracked grain, I would think that 6ltrs is ample steeping capacity. As always though, I stand to be corrected if there are fugures to substantiate - I'll buy a bigger pot if I really need to, but remember all I'm working with is 250grams grain and a small amount of hops material........


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## Gavo (14/11/08)

In regards to the steeping and boiling volumes. I steep about 500 grams of grain in 3 litres of water then sparge through a strainer until I get my boil volume. As far as the amount of malt in the boil and the boil volume is concerned, yes you could boil all of the fermentables at once. However the higher concentration of the fermetables in the wort lowers the hop utilisation, hence why only biol the LDME in the resultant liquid from the steeping and the sparge. I generally have kept my preboil gravity at around 1044 as according to beersmith I get good hop utilisation ( the best use out of the hops).

If you can only boil 6 litres then 700 grams of LDME added to the boil is probably better and then add the rest of the fermentables at flamout. This will give you a preboil volume of 1050 and better use of the hops.

Don't worry too much about the figures though, Just get a proceedure that works for you. You will make a good beer.

Cheers
Gavo


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## buttersd70 (14/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> I can't see why capacity is essential.



give that man a cigar.  

It takes some guys ages to realise this. The volume of the boil is irrelevant (other than making sure you have enough so that it doesn't boil away). What you lose on the swings, you gain on the roundabouts, because as far as volume is concerned, its only the _final _volume that is relevant. 8L+15L=23L, but so does 6L+17L. or 10+13, or 13+10. It all comes to the same in the end.....

Gavo is 100% as far as concentration of the boil is concerned....that is relevant as far as hop utilisation. What I do is make up the boil to whatever volume I need.....at the same concentration as the final volume will be. It makes the numbers easier. There are other ways of doing it, but thats how I do it. Imagine a hypothetical....lets put sanitation to one side for a minute.....

Imagine, you have so much malt, so much hops and so much water required for the full recipe. You mix the malt and water up to 23L in your fermenter. You then draw 6L of that liquid out, and you boil all your hops in it. You then add that back into the fermenter. As far as gravity and hops are concerned, you have achieved the same result as you sould have if you had boiled all 23L with the hops. Obviously, you wouldn't do it this way, just using it to illistrate the point. 6L of wort of the same dilution as the OG has enough hops for all 23L boilled in it...this would make this 6L very very bitter, but when its diluted back into the rest of the (unhopped  ) wort......it all equals out again.


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## Jase71 (15/11/08)

Hmmm, so I have an OG of 1.062 on 21 litres :huh: . is this something I need to be concerned about ? I have no idea how this is going to translate after fermentation is complete. 

I will hold off on pitching my yeast to see if there's any suggestions. I have some headspace to play with should I need to make any last minute additions.


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## buttersd70 (15/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> Hmmm, so I have an OG of 1.062 on 21 litres :huh: . is this something I need to be concerned about ? I have no idea how this is going to translate after fermentation is complete.
> 
> I will hold off on pitching my yeast to see if there's any suggestions. I have some headspace to play with should I need to make any last minute additions.



what was the recipe, Jase? what was the BG, hop alpha, and target OG?


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## Jase71 (15/11/08)

Recipe almost as above, being: 

1.5k LDME, 
Can of liquid caramalt, 
2 x 30 minute steeps of 200g crystal grain, 
500g Dex

Hops boil was 60 minutes: 
15g Fuggles at start
10g Cascade at 45 minutes (ie a 15 min boil)
10g Cascade at end

*EDIT:* and in the event that same varieties are non-standardised, my pellets are marked as Fuggles 4.4% alpha, Cascade 6.3%)

Uh, excuse my ignorance, but what's BG ? The gravity reading (isnt this the 'original gravity?) after everything was added to the fermenter is what I thought should be the first reading... 

And I didn't really have a target FG in mind, simply went on your number crunching earlier in the thread, sbut didnt anticipate 1060 :huh: So this means a potentially high strength beer ? If it's a bit high or a bit low, makes no difference to me (1060 will mean high strength though right?) but I could always add a couple of litres more water. My concern is that this might be a bit too sweet, and I'll need to do another hop boil. My other concern is that th yeast may not fement out all the 'sugars' in sufficient time, and I'll have some delicate bottle conditioning situations.... 

All a learning curve, but if I can make some quick adjustments now (like in the next few hours) i will do so before pitching. It would probably (but not imperative) be better if I could drop the final ABV down, but if not, I'm sure it'll find some welcome lips ! 

As long as its tasty Criteria No. 1 

Your suggestions at this crucial time would be much appreciated !


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## buttersd70 (15/11/08)

sorry jase, bg=boil gravity...ie, what went in the boil and what volume, I can work it out.....
I'm concerned slightly sweet too, depends on the alpha of the hops....

Given the time constraints, and wanting to get it fixed to pitch, check your pm.....give me a call. We can then add the details into the thread as an fyi for everyone later.


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## Jase71 (15/11/08)

Once again, Butters has come to the rescue with some great infomation to those with less experience in the field of homebrewing. After a couple of phone calls between us, I'll be able to rebalance this brew with a 15min Cascade boil and a couple more litres water. Cheers mate, I thank you for giving up your time to help out. Pitching tonight  

Butters may go into further detail as to the science behind the remedy so it's on record for others to read about, but ultimately just about anything at this stage can be fixed. 

And for the record, extract brewing is fun ! Counting down the weeks till this one's ready for drinking.


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## buttersd70 (15/11/08)

OK, so an update on Jase's brew....we discussed it, and he asked me to post the details

There were a few concerns that Jase had about the gravity, and also he was concerned it would be underhopped....

Given that it had already been made and was sitting around waiting to pitch, I got Jase to give me a call. I wouldn't normally, but I felt bad because he posted his hopping schedule, in a thread I've been reading, and the penny didn't drop on me that it was going to go tits up....I feel I should have picked up on this before he started brewing.....

Anyway, there are a couple of things I advised him as far as fixing it...The 60min fuggle addition was too small for the projected gravity, so more bitterness was required. Secondly, the volume was down, and the OG, as a result was too high.....

So I entered the recipe in software, and came up with the folowing conclusion...boil 15g more cascade in a water only boil, and add that in, lifting the final volume to 23L. This would change the OG to 1054 (from 1062), and raise the IBU to 28IBU (from 19IBU). I advised the cascade, because the 60min addition was fuggle, and the 15min addition was (originally) 10g cascade, with another 10g at flameout. I figured it would be better leaving all the later addition as cascade.

From the 1054 gravity, only 1045 of that is from malt, the remainder is from the dex....so as far as hop balance is concerned, (for those interested in such things), you have a BUGU of 62%. The water boil will throw things off slightly, but the resulting beer should be somewhere in the ballpark of this....adn I would expect a final gravity somewhere in the region of 1012-ish.

We decicided it would be good for the community, particularly those that are reading this thread with a view to moving into extract brewing, to get a full breakdown of the problems that occurred, in order to learn from it. So, the main issues that Jase ran into were;

*Getting confused with the hop additions*; a common problem, as sometimes it is referred to as 'from the start of the boil' and at other times is reffered to as 'before the end of boil'. This depends on who you're talking to, and the software they use. But generally, if its mentioned as 60,15,0, its counting from _end _of boil....if its 0,45,60, it means from the _start _of the boil....in both cases, the first addition is boiled for 60 minutes total time, the second is added 45 minutes later, and boiled for 15 minutes total time, and the third addition is flameout....(obviously those times change depending on what you're doing, this is just a common example)
_*
confusion about what to add (as far as malt) into the hop boil;*_
this one can be very confusing, because there are so many ways of doing it, that are all correct. But imho, the easiest way is to calculate what gravity all you r malt will give you for the volume you are aiming at, and then make the boil you will be doing the hopping in match. So if your boil size is 5L, and your total volume is 20, it is 1/4 of the final size....add 1/4 of the total fermentables. That way, the hopping is easy to work out, regardless of what software you're using.
*
Not calculating the hopping, and just guestimating;*
if the actual alpha, the gravity of the boil (either calculated, or read on a hydrometer before heating), are known, then the actual IBU can be calculated. It can be guestimated, and often is, with a bit of experience...but particularly when starting out, or even when experienced but doing a new recipe, working out the hopping (at least reasonably) accurately will reduce error, and lead to a more consistant brew.

I think the most important lesson can be learned by what Jase _did_ do...._don't_ panic about it, seek advice from the community. Theres not a lot that cant be fixed with a bit of help from your mates.....instead of pitching the yeast straight away, and trying to fix it later, advice was sought, and I think there will be no problems at all with this beer.


Jeez, this post is long winded, even for me...... :lol:


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## Pollux (15/11/08)

Jesus man, I drank nearly a whole schooner reading that......

I have my first all extract on the stove right now....What's your number?? 


One thing I recommend to Jase is download beersmith and run your recipes through that and then post them up here to let butters and other with experience have a gander before you are sitting there wonder what went wrong.....


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## Jase71 (15/11/08)

Pollux said:


> I have my first all extract on the stove right now....What's your number??



Still on the stove? You're getting slow in your old age. :lol: I just pitched my yeast.


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## Pollux (15/11/08)

I started steeping at 7pm, then got the little one to bed, by the time my piss poor stove got the 10L to the boil it was 8pm.....

20min hop additions to be added in 5 mins.....


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## Jase71 (15/11/08)

Hope it all goes well for you, Pollux. We should consider New Years 6 pack swap being as it's the first extract brew for both of us. 

And Butters, FYI the OG on the final was 1052. Happy with those figures.


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## Pollux (15/11/08)

Sounds fair...


Will remember to put aside a sixer when I bottle.....You are aware I bottle in stubbies yeah?? 


EDIT: Mine is now in the fermenter and pitched at 19deg..... Target OG = 1053, Actual OG = 1052....But given my tap and I had a fight and I wore 1L out of the 20 on my foot while clearing the tap, I can live......


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## Gavo (15/11/08)

Jase, glad it all went well for you in the end. That OG did seem high 1060, as I had punched this one into Beersmith myself.

Here is something I have picked up on and you probably sorted in the phone calls with Butters. In your original post you listed 1 KG of Morgans Caramalt in your recipe and on post #4 suggested 22 litre batch size. I did wonder what you were going to do with the other 500 grams. Now punch those numbers in at 1.5 KG of the morgans and top up to 21 litre and there is the discrepency. 

A little higher BG and higher ABV could have called it the wobbly boot Caramalt Brew.  

Once again glad it all went well, you will be hooked now. :icon_cheers: 

Cheers
Gavo.


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## buttersd70 (15/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> Hope it all goes well for you, Pollux. We should consider New Years 6 pack swap being as it's the first extract brew for both of us.
> 
> And Butters, FYI the OG on the final was 1052. Happy with those figures.



Excellent...I didn't want to confuse you too much earlier, but when I entered all the details, I couldn't get the numbers exactly as you were on the hydro, I thought that even for that volume it was a little high....I calculated 1054 after the dilution based on your hydro reading, but all my software was telling me that based on the ingredients, it should have been 1059 down to 1051....so I edged the bets on that last hop amount anyway, and split the difference.  Give it a few days then taste a sample, it should (hopefully) knock your socks off.

Polux, good to see you hit your targets, man....beersmith is usually pretty damn accurate.

Gavo, the morgans specialty malts are in 1kg tins.  It turned out that after the first post today, which was listed as 21L, it settled back down to 20L when the frothing subsided...so It was purely the 3L less pushing the grav up.....But all worked out in the end.


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## goomboogo (16/11/08)

"I couldn't get the numbers exactly as you were on the hydro" :huh:


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## buttersd70 (16/11/08)

goomboogo said:


> "I couldn't get the numbers exactly as you were on the hydro" :huh:



Ok, rephrase that to "by entering the volumes and the ingredients that were used into software, the calculated gravity didn't correspond to what was being read on the hydrometer."

Jase may or may not have actually been on the hydrometer, but if he was, I hope he washed it afterwards.


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## Pollux (16/11/08)

Butters, your advice becomes more Yoda like as the night passes.........


Speaking in random order you do begin...


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## DKS (16/11/08)

Butters, Gavo, Jase and others. This has been a great thread for info and entertainment. Thanks for following through with fixes and explanation info. 
I have a question, This beersmith thing is it expensive?, free ? download ? puchase a disc or sharewear? : :icon_cheers: : 
Daz


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## Pollux (16/11/08)

It's free to download, 21 day trial, then you need to purchase...


Still, it's probably one of the best things I have bought in terms of HBing....


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## Gavo (16/11/08)

buttersd70 said:


> Gavo, the morgans specialty malts are in 1kg tins.  It turned out that after the first post today, which was listed as 21L, it settled back down to 20L when the frothing subsided...so It was purely the 3L less pushing the grav up.....But all worked out in the end.



A me sees the error of my ways,  I was looking at the Coopers site and seeing the 1.5 kg tins thinking all might have been the same. Yes 3 litres difference in the volume would do it.



DKS said:


> Butters, Gavo, Jase and others. This has been a great thread for info and entertainment. Thanks for following through with fixes and explanation info.
> I have a question, This beersmith thing is it expensive?, free ? download ? puchase a disc or sharewear? : :icon_cheers: :
> Daz



If you are going beyond kits get Beersmith , at least download the trial and play with it. Link Here. Even with the current exchange rates it's still only around $30 -$35 AU.

Cheers
Gavo


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## Jase71 (16/11/08)

Perhaps it should be worth mentioning that after a quick peek my fermentation has a head on it after 24 hours that's 1/2 white with fine bubbles, and the other 1/2 is quite brown, and thicker. :huh: Is this the 'rocky head' transforming into the 'cauliflour head' (Got that term from Michael Jackson, thought it sounded quaint) or is something amiss ? Must admit that I haven't looked at previous fermentations so have no basis for comparison..........


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## Pollux (16/11/08)

Sounds the norm for a higher temp ferment from what I have seen in my limited experience...

I just walked through the kitchen and heard a galoomp.......While not overly important, it is a nice sound....


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## Gavo (16/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> Perhaps it should be worth mentioning that after a quick peek my fermentation has a head on it after 24 hours that's 1/2 white with fine bubbles, and the other 1/2 is quite brown, and thicker. :huh: Is this the 'rocky head' transforming into the 'cauliflour head' (Got that term from Michael Jackson, thought it sounded quaint) or is something amiss ? Must admit that I haven't looked at previous fermentations so have no basis for comparison..........



I have seen this on a starter of wyeast 3787 of mine, thought what the heck is that.  Tasted the wort before pitching and all was fine. So me thinks that all is going well for you.

While I am here, glad yours has gone well also Pollux.

I don't think I will get a chance to brew for another two weeks, hopefully a partial with 2kg of grain.


Cheers
Gavo.


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## Jase71 (30/11/08)

Update: 

Thanks again to the members who gave feedback on my first extract, and especially butters for the 'tech support helpline' in adjusting the IBU's at the last minute. Quite unexpectedly, the sample tasting reveals a definite but not overwhelming coffee tone to the tastebuds - if that makes any sense. With my ghetto cooling system, I kept it <21c for primary fermentation, and for most of secondary, although it shot up to around 24c in the last few days, but I'm not overy concerned about this at the last stages of fermentation. It's a lot darker than beers I would typically enjoy, and it taste like it too, but this isn't an issue. It comes in at around 5.4 % ABV. 

This one's going to age for a couple of months before I give it a go, although I might be tempted to have a cold one in two weeks to see how it's progressing. 

So cheers (& beers) to all who contributed to this thread.


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## Gavo (30/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> Update:
> This one's going to age for a couple of months before I give it a go, although I might be tempted to have a cold one in two weeks to see how it's progressing.



You know you want to try one in two weeks.... you won't be able to resist... It will be calling for you..  

Interesting flavor you have described as the Morgans site describes a Toffee caramel flavor.. I would describe a Toffee Caramel flavor as a sweet roasted flavor may be like coffee (thinking out loud). 

I should age quite well by the sound of what you have said, no other nasty flavours.

Cheers
Gavo


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## Jase71 (30/11/08)

gavo said:


> I should age quite well



Good clean living and a healthy diet is what you need to aim for. Don't you hate typo's  

Perhaps the coffee flavour is due to the tiny residual crystal malt husks that, after straining, were invariably left in the boil and _very slighty_ burnt to the base of the pot. Well, _something _got stuck on there, and that's my suspicion. This could well be one of those 'never to be repeated' happy little accidents. This didn't concern me at the time, and it still doesnt, especially if it was responsible for an added dimension (there is no 'burnt' taste' as such that I could pick, so all's good)


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## buttersd70 (30/11/08)

Jase, in the sample tasting, how was the bitterness? did it come in about right?


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## Jase71 (30/11/08)

buttersd70 said:


> Jase, in the sample tasting, how was the bitterness? did it come in about right?



I'm still a bit unrefined when it comes to bitterness on small samples especially, but I can say it wasn't too sweet at all, nor was it too bitter. A more comprehensive bioassay will be posted when I sit down to a cold one in a month or two  I'll send you a sample if you like. (seriously)


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## Gavo (30/11/08)

gavo said:


> I should age quite well by the sound of what you have said, no other nasty flavours.





Jase71 said:


> Good clean living and a healthy diet is what you need to aim for. Don't you hate typo's



Well I am hoping that I will age well, you know smooth and mellow with a hint of bitterness. :lol: I reckon the beer should age well also.  

Cheers
Gavo.


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## buttersd70 (30/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> I'm still a bit unrefined when it comes to bitterness on small samples especially, but I can say it wasn't too sweet at all, nor was it too bitter. A more comprehensive bioassay will be posted when I sit down to a cold one in a month or two  I'll send you a sample if you like. (seriously)



Perfic....I love it when a plan comes together.
View attachment 22907


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