# Honey But No Honey



## Goose (3/1/07)

Several tasters of my brews say that they can detect honey both in the smell and taste of my brews. Depending on the day I can see were they are coming from....

Of course honey does not feature in any of my recipes.

Common element seems to be Cascade and Amarillo hops but I'd argue thats more grapefruit than anything else.

Where else could a honey "hint" come from ? Not being a "honey" liker at all I'd like to eliminate this if possible.

My apologies for an ambiguous question.... :huh: 

Goose


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## peas_and_corn (3/1/07)

what sort of attenuation do you get on average? maybe they are a little sweet


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## Mr Bond (3/1/07)

Any caramunich in em?
I get faint honey tones if its the only specialty at say8% on a pils base.


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## Goose (3/1/07)

hey lads...

p&c... pretty good attenuation... around 70-75%

brau... yes indeed... I've been using between 50-100 g of carapils to use up some stock... of the total grain bill has been around 2 % but I'll take the tip and eliminate it from next brew..

Goose


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## Ross (3/1/07)

Goose said:


> hey lads...
> 
> p&c... pretty good attenuation... around 70-75%
> 
> ...



Goose,

Brau said caramunich not carapils - carapils won't give honey taste...

Need a little more info, is there a common ingredient like base malt being used?

also, diaceytal gives a butterscoth taste which could be described as honeyish in a brew.

cheers Ross


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## Goose (3/1/07)

Ross said:


> Goose,
> 
> Brau said caramunich not carapils - carapils won't give honey taste...
> 
> ...



Hey Ross yep quite right, carapils not caramunich. :huh: Base malt is Baird Pale malt (US) and I have been brewing Ales only so am assuming diacetyl is not an issue.

Could this be caused by too low a fermentation temperature ? Before I bought a temperature controller (yours actually) I was using a wine fridge which is supposed to control temp to 18 deg C (highest I could set it) but it eventually brought the wort down to a temperature level that I considered extreme ,ie around 15 deg. Yeast was always pitched at around 23 deg C or so so I think sufficient time occurs to ferment the brew out completely before the yeast gives up (based on Sg readings)... next brew will be at 18-20 deg C (controlled) so will be interesting if that solves it. What do u think ?


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## PostModern (3/1/07)

I think diacetyl, too. At 15C, many ale yeast strains will make lots of diacetyl. Although the flavour might better be described as "butterscotch" rather than "honey".

The only place I've tasted "honey" apart from honey beers, is in (commercial) beer that had been stored an incredibly long time. I assume you enjoy your own beer too much for that to ever happen


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## Ross (4/1/07)

Goose,

I nearly asked if you used Bairds MO as your base malt. I get it in my MO brews & generally love it, but when used in large volumes, in a high alcohol brew for instance, it can become quite dominant, so I switch to Golden Promise which has a cleaner profile. I haven't used the Bairds pale malt (pils malt) yet, but maybe it has a similar profile. 
Edit; Bairds is British, & are you sure it's not their ale malt?

cheers Ross


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## Chad (4/1/07)

Ross said:


> I get it in my MO brews & generally love it, but when used in large volumes, in a high alcohol brew for instance, it can become quite dominant, so I switch to Golden Promise which has a cleaner profile.


Having only just started AG, I haven't used Golden Promise (GP) yet, but is it possible to use GP as a part substitute for honey in a honey beer? Or would using real honey give a better end flavour profile?


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## Steve (4/1/07)

Chad said:


> Having only just started AG, I haven't used Golden Promise (GP) yet, but is it possible to use GP as a part substitute for honey in a honey beer? Or would using real honey give a better end flavour profile?




use real honey


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## Ross (4/1/07)

Chad said:


> Having only just started AG, I haven't used Golden Promise (GP) yet, but is it possible to use GP as a part substitute for honey in a honey beer? Or would using real honey give a better end flavour profile?



Chad, i think you missunderstood - I use GP to avoid the honey taste...  

cheers Ross


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## bigfridge (4/1/07)

PostModern said:


> I think diacetyl, too. At 15C, many ale yeast strains will make lots of diacetyl. Although the flavour might better be described as "butterscotch" rather than "honey".
> 
> The only place I've tasted "honey" apart from honey beers, is in (commercial) beer that had been stored an incredibly long time. I assume you enjoy your own beer too much for that to ever happen



PoMo, I think you are onto it here.

All yeast strains produce Diacetyl as a bi-product during fermentation but then consume it again as the gravity drops and they prepare to go to sleep. But the diferent strains do differ in their ability to re-adsorb it which leaves it in the beer. This is why you should not rack too early or crash cool until the primary ferment is done. It is actually more complex than this (what a surprise), but this is the general idea.

Diacetyl often appears as a honey character when present in low levels and then develops the more familiar butterscotch character. If left to develop further it becomes more like rancid butter.

I have seen it in commercial bottled beer whle the draught version was fine. Any oxygen introduced in the bottling process allows pre-cursors present in the beer to convert to diacetyl.

So, I think we need to look at your yeast and fermentation management rather than malt. 

HTH,
Dave


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## Chad (4/1/07)

Ross said:


> Chad, i think you missunderstood - I use GP to avoid the honey taste...


Ah, I read it as cleaner profile, but still retaining the honey note.


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## Goose (4/1/07)

Thanks Lads. Sounds like Bairds malt may be part of the cause.

Interesting point Post Modern... maybe this stuff is butterscotch (diacetyl) caused by ale yeast at too low a temperature. It could also be a sweet "tail" left unattenuated as the temperature drops to a point where the yeast gives it up.

Am leaning this way because I have not been raising the temperature to allow a diacetyl rest for my ales. They've been racked straight to keg and brought down to 3 degrees C...


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## Goose (4/1/07)

> All yeast strains produce Diacetyl as a bi-product during fermentation but then consume it again as the gravity drops and they prepare to go to sleep. But the diferent strains do differ in their ability to re-adsorb it which leaves it in the beer. This is why you should not rack too early or crash cool until the primary ferment is done. It is actually more complex than this (what a surprise), but this is the general idea.



Gotcha BigFridge.... I have been racking too early and too cold.... :blink: 

I'll correct and post back.


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## Jye (4/1/07)

> I think diacetyl, too. At 15C, many ale yeast strains will make lots of diacetyl. Although the flavour might better be described as "butterscotch" rather than "honey".





> Diacetyl often appears as a honey character when present in low levels and then develops the more familiar butterscotch character. If left to develop further it becomes more like rancid butter.



Ive tasted honey in a few beer but have never know it was diacetyl. My latest Blonde ale has a faint honey characteristic and it is the first time I have gotten it from Nottingham, but it is also the first time I have fermenter it at 16C and NOT raised the temp after primary fermentation.

Cheers
Jye


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## Ross (4/1/07)

i raise all my beers in temp once gravity drops below 1020. This helps clean up any diacetyl & ensures a complete ferment. That saying, I still find the MO gives a honeyish taste to the brew.

cheers Ross


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## KoNG (4/1/07)

My most recent golden ale brewed for friends for chrissy, was all amarillo late, which i find gives the impression of sweet honey flavours sometimes if the bitterness doesnt balance it.
But this brew has a REAL honey edge too it... luckily for me, the people i brewed it for like beez neez.?!?! hahaha
And this brew went down to 1.005 (i used some dex), but looking at other recipes with similar characteristics, it would seem that amarillo late with anything >5% crystal... has ended up with a slight sweet-honey profile. (especially this seasons amarillo)
BTW, i have GP but used JWM pale for this one.


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## Trev (4/1/07)

One possible reason is the production of the 2,3 Pentadione (sp?) ketone. As a ketone it is produced by similar methods to Diacetyl but its predominant taste is honey rater than butter/butterscotch.

I have brewed a beer a few times where I deliberately let this happen. In my case I used the German Ale yeast but brew at a low temp, maybe 12C. For whatever reason this seems to favour production of this ketone and makes a beer that a lot of folks ( OK, mainly the girls) seem to really like. The first time I did it I was trying to make a Koelsch, bad Koelsch so I renamed it a 'Honey Blonde' and everybody was happy.

Maybe this is what's happening?

Trev


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## Kai (5/1/07)

Trev, that's an intriguing answer.I have argued with a few people over the taste of mild diacetyl; as soon as I can detect it the flavour is buttery caramel but I love the mild honeyed flavour I interpret in a good pilsner.


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## shotduck (5/1/07)

Interesting. From the information gleaned from this thread, I intend to make my next honey ale uing Marris Otter, a hefty honey dose, and German Ale yeast brewed at around 12C. I love the honey ale from Redoak, and whilst I am not necessarily trying to copy it, I would love to make a honey beer that retains as much honey flavour as that one!


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## Goose (24/2/07)

Seems to be some discussion on diacetyl recently so I thought I'd update.

I am still battling the honey problem... convinced its related to diacetyl as suggested but to my tastebuds its a distinct honey(ish) smell which is brought out in the taste of the beer. I struggle to see it as "popcorn" or "butterscotch" but then I've always hated honey, period, so maybe I'm supersensitive to it, needless to say my no 1 objective is to get rid of this taste. 

As Trev suggests it may be Pentadione, the best chemical explanation I've found on this is here: http://www.draymans.com/articles/arts/03.html

An excerpt: "Pentanedione on its own has a sweet honey-perfume smell and diacetyl resembles butter or butterscotch. Of the two, diacetyl is more significant because it has a taste threshold 10 times lower than its partner does, and most yeast strains make more diacetyl than pentanedione. If the pentanedione fraction overpowers the diacetyl fraction I strongly suspect bacterial contamination. Pentanedione is very similar to diacetyl but only one-tenth as much is found in beer. For most people the flavour threshold for diacetyl is about 0.15mg/L and 0.90mg/L for pentandione.. Diacetyl is formed only when there is oxygen in the beer. It also means that it is, to some extent, inevitable, since the wort is usually strongly aerated at pitching."

So maybe that means I have a persistent bacterial infection but as said I think my sanitation technique both for fermenter and keg and lines is pretty good. 

I since tried a lager which fermented at 10 deg C and raised the temp on completion to 20 deg c for 24 hours. I had it cc'ing for 4 weeks at 2 deg C but again had the distinct honey smell and taste. I was ready to spit the dummy and toss the toys out of the pram and bin it, but controlled the urge and removed it from the kegerator and left it at room temperature for 2 days (stinking hot 27 deg C...). I then cooled it back down fully expecting to have had the beer spoiled but noticed that while the honey smell and taste was still there it had reduced significantly.

That probably means my diacetyl rest was not long enoughso my current batch I am going to leave for 3 days at 20 deg C and see if this has any impact.

Or maybe there is merit in leaving the brew after racking to keg at room temperature for a few days before dropping it down to kegerator temps ?


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