# "cheap" Kits Vs "dearer" Kits And Extras?



## michael_aussie (27/6/10)

I'm not a total tight arse (well actually I am), but I love my beer, so am prepared to pay more if I get an imporved product.

I have been brewing mainly "Dark Ale" from Tooheys and Coopers. Primary because these are the kits available at Coles and Woolies (Safeway), and these are always cheaper than the kits available at the two local HB shops near to me.
To be honest, although each brew batch differs slightly, I am unable to pick the difference between Tooheys and Coopers, although, I haven't yet done a trianglar blind test.

I have also tried a kit from Brewcraft (Newcastle Brown), that was good.

I am currently brewing:
BASIC CHEAP OPTION (roughly $17) Tooheys Dark Ale with Coopers Brew enhancer 2
SLIGHTLY DEARER OPTION (roughly $21) Tooheys Dark Ale with *Cellar Plus Dark Brew Booster # 12*
ROLLS ROYCE OF KITS OPTION (roughly $33) *Morgans Iron Bark Dark Ale *with *Brewcraft Beer kit converter (dark lager #64)*

I'm trying to see if the extra $$ spent on the Cellar Plus is justified (about $4 extra), and whether the extra $$ spent on Morgans with the Brewcraft converter (about $16 more than BASIC CHEAP OPTION) are justified.

I'm hoping they are.

If I can taste a difference I am more than happy to spend the extra money.

What are your comments about price versus quality for the up market products???


----------



## jivesucka (27/6/10)

cool story bro


----------



## mkstalen (27/6/10)

If you're into dark beers there's some good recipes in the twocan thread. From memory one of them even won an award.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;hl=2can+dark


----------



## Bribie G (27/6/10)

Tooheys are on special at Woolies for about $8 at our local branch at the moment. My Coopers Stout Headbanger toucan + kilo LDME + kilo DEX came in the top half of the field in Russian Imperial Stouts in the National comps last year - if I get in there this year I won't be repeating the experiment as they would have to kill me. 

B)


----------



## bum (27/6/10)

I've always found that the more expensive a kit brew I put down the better it was. Not because paying more for a tin buys a better beer but because that extra money spent reflects the extra ingredients bought and thus more work went into the beer. If you're drinking the standard Coopers Dark Ale and enjoying it then I'd stick with that. A few extra bucks in your pocket and a beer you like in your fridge. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me.


----------



## kbe (28/6/10)

I read some posts about Muntons, so I found an online shop that sells it and bought a Muntons Connoisseurs Mt Mellick Cream Ale 1.8kg. Asked the shop what would be nice with it and added some crystal grain and number 20 ultra blend.

Not sure if it was the tin or what, but it has only been in the bottle for 2 weeks and it is very nice. So smooth in the mouth feel.

It is $26 a tin, but I was that impressed that I have bought enough for 2 more batches.


----------



## Nodrog (28/6/10)

i've made a munton's connosieur Bock and it was fantastic, very mouthy, and very morish.

however i found the euro lager and Yorkshire bitter from the same range decidely average at best.


----------



## earle (28/6/10)

My thinking is that the more extras you add to a kit the less contribution the kit makes. You can either spend more money and get a kit with more extras already built in, or you can get a cheaper kit and add the extras by steeping some grain and doing a small hop boil. The second method gives you more control, is more fun and ultimately produces a better beer IMHO.


----------



## Shed101 (28/6/10)

I tried the Munton's Highland Heavy with a Morgan's Fuggles bag chucked in and S-05 yeast (harvested from previous trub and literally chucked in). Worked out a total cost of $43 I think.

While it may be more bitter and darker than BJCP style, I can say it the peaty, mossy malt flavours are eerily like brews i've had in Scotland. There's nothing like being transported by your tastebuds  

To the OP - i'd say for the sake of what is really a few bucks, splash out and try different things. You may be happy with what you've got ... but you won't know if you're happier with something else until you try it.


----------



## Kevman (28/6/10)

I've done a Tooheys Special Draught with BE2 and S-05 yeast. It comes out as quite a reasonable drop. The megaswill drinkers like it as it similar to what they are used to drinking.

I used to give the megaswill drinkers something like Dr Smurto's golden ale but while they gave you the usual comments of "its nice or its not quite as I expected" , they weren't too keen on another glass. I think that they get so used to drinking these Australian Lagers (VB, Hahn Ice, Tooheys, etc) that their palatte isn't used to real ale full of flavour and aroma. Now with this little kit beer, I can gently lead them down the path to homebrewing.

I find the use of better quality yeasts also helps the cheaper kits provide a better tasting beer. And itsn't hard to harvest the yeasts at the end of a brew to use in the next. 

I've done the Coopers dark ale with BE2 and S-04 and it tastes similar to Tooheys Hunter Old (or how I remember Hunter Old tasting as it is just about impossible to get in Vic).


----------



## flano (28/6/10)

all in kegs ...I tried tooheys draught in a can...
then
tried ezy brew fresh wort pure blonde and Little creatures pale ale ...both $34.00 each.

ezy brew is easier.. as in you don't need to add dextrose and the quality is far superior to the can ( which I ended up tipping out ).
I just got a brewers choice fresh wort Amarillo Ale to try...it was $39.00. 

I have shocked non home brew fans with the quality.
So much so they are all planning on coming around to watch the 3rd state of origin and drinking all my beer.


----------



## Andrew Coleman (28/6/10)

The beers I've made using Tooheys kits (when i was brewing kits) where all chucked out, they are just poor quality, and although they could probably be spruced up its worth paying a couple extra bucks for coopers top quality products (and no i'm not a coopers rep). Strongly suggest your next batch you should try something different again, for a good price too...

21L Batch

1.7kg Coopers Dark Ale Kit
1.5kg Coopers Amber LME
0.25kg Dextrose

Safale S04 for pommy style
Safale US05 for american style

$25 - $30 depending on where you buy your product
___________________________________________

And for an even better beer I'd suggest adding roasted barley or chocolate malt to your dark beers, it's piss easy and you will get a beautiful roasty aroma and flavour from it that cannot be achieved with kits the same.

If you like your dark ales you should deffinetly buy a Kilo or 2, usually only cost about $5.80 a kg and you only need to use about 250g a batch depending on what kit and extracts your using it with.

so the above recipie could be changed to...

21L Batch

1.7kg Coopers Dark Ale Kit
1.5kg Coopers Wheat LME (Good using this can as the wheat gives good head and thins the beer a little in place of dextrose)
0.25kg Chocolate Grain (500 EBC)
___________________________________________

Give it some thought mate, it's just the kind of advice I needed when I started brewing, hope your beers turn out good none the less!
Moral of my story is adding special grains for colour flavour and aroma is a much better step up then spending more on kits
And then ofcourse adding extra hops will make a huge difference too, but i wouldnt worry about that just yet making dark ales.

Drew


----------



## katzke (28/6/10)

Boy they sell a bunch of the cans so they must be good. I say look for the sell by or use by date and if it is fresh brew with it.

You will most likely will do better using fresh extract with grain and hop additions then using kits.

It all comes down to if you are happy. If you have friends over and they leave because the beer is gone then you are doing something right.

I am a beer snob. I like good beer. I dont give a rats ass how it is made as long as it tastes good and does not give me a headache.

Far as I know Rats ass is an American term.


----------



## michael_aussie (28/6/10)

Thank you for everyone's input.

Although the "basic" beers I have make so far are very drinkable, I am very keen to raise the bar.

Drew, I'll certainly take your advice on the roasted barley and chocolate malt.



Drewcifer said:


> And for an even better beer I'd suggest adding roasted barley or chocolate malt to your dark beers, it's piss easy and you will get a beautiful roasty aroma and flavour from it that cannot be achieved with kits the same.
> 
> If you like your dark ales you should deffinetly buy a Kilo or 2, usually only cost about $5.80 a kg and you only need to use about 250g a batch depending on what kit and extracts your using it with.
> ....Drew


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (28/6/10)

Drewcifer said:


> The beers I've made using Tooheys kits (when i was brewing kits) where all chucked out, they are just poor quality, and although they could probably be spruced up its worth paying a couple extra bucks for coopers top quality products (and no i'm not a coopers rep). Strongly suggest your next batch you should try something different again, for a good price too...
> 
> 21L Batch
> 
> ...



This is one thing I have lots of experience on - years of Kit & Kilo (esp in Dark Ales) and then extract plus steeping grains.

With the kits, for a dark beer, either the coopers or the other higher quality kits. Use grain, the quality increase over using malt powder is incredible. I soaked (when you are all grain, it's called steeped or mashed) the chocolate grains for 30 minutes. I put a sieve over the mouth of the fermenter and pour the liquid and the grains into the sieve, grains go into the sieve and I pour hot and then cool water through the grain to make up the volume. Not technically correct (I'm now onto all grain), but I did this over and over and made some fantastic K&K beers. Brown sugar is always a welcome addition and for flavour adjuncts I used aniseed, cardamom, cloves. Not telling you how to do it, but one thing I did well whilst on K&K was dark ales.

Ideally, your progression can be:

Kits
Kit & Kilo
Kit & Kilo using grain - until your recipes are downpat
Extract (i.e. unhopped goo - kits are hopped goo), buying separate hops (sometimes 2 lots of extract)
Extract, hops and grain
All grain

I went 12 years all up to get through the first 5 stages, because step 6 seemed way too hard to understand. Then after coming across this forum, I came across Nick_JD's "going all grain for less than thirty bucks" guide - brew in a bag. No major equipment upgrade, all pictures explained everything and the beer is fantastic. If I'd had a guide like that earlier, it would not have taken me 12 years to work through stage 1-5.

Kits are great, I'm never going to slag off those who use them, because I did for so long. They are great as a leg-up to brewing. But treat them like a stepping stone. I wish that 12 years ago, a resource like the AHB forums existed, because it is the best thing to ever happen to my brewing. Progress through the above stages, you pick up lots of experience and you get a taste for what you can create. And if you are worried, Dark Ale are the most forgiving for going all grain.

For the record, I just put down the following Dark Ale:


0.20 kg Belgian wheat Grain
0.25 kg British chocolate malt Grain
0.25 kg Brown sugar, dark Sugar
0.75 kg German pilsener Grain
0.50 kg German wheat Grain
0.20 kg Honey Sugar
0.25 kg Rye malt Grain

30.00 g Amarillo Pellet at 30m
15.00 g East Kent Golding Pellet at 15m
15.00 g East Kent Golding Pellet at flameout
15.00 g Nelson Sauvin at flameout

1.00 pack British Ale yeast (Windsor)
100.00 ml Cherry Extract


----------



## manticle (28/6/10)

Some kits benefit from extras, some don't. I'd be more inclined to try and spice up a basic lager kit than add too much to a decent stout kit for example.

Throwing expensive stuff at expensive kits doesn't necessarily make better beer any more than throwing expensive grain at an AG necessarily makes better beer. Ingredients are there for a reason. Like with cooking, it's at least as much how you use the ingredients as to what they are.

What they are is important, yes but it is possible to take bresse pigeon, perigord truffles and saffron and make an inedible waste of money.


----------



## Nodrog (29/6/10)

Lord Raja,
did you boil the liquid that came from soaking the grains at all, or just soak, and straight into the FV? 
thanks


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/6/10)

Nodrog said:


> Lord Raja,
> did you boil the liquid that came from soaking the grains at all, or just soak, and straight into the FV?
> thanks



I didn't boil, just steeped.

Technically from an AG point of view, this isn't correct. But the majority of the fermentable sugars were in the kit (or unhopped extract), so no issue. I just poured the grain and its soak water into the fermenter through a sieve and then ran hot water through the grains in the sieve to get the rest of the sugars out of it (I've since found out that this is called sparging).

The other thing to note is that if you are doing your own hopping (which I did in the grain) and making a stout/porter, to use a small amount of a decent high AA% hop. Don't waste your time with noble hops in a stout, as a long boil takes all that aroma out (and aroma gets lost in a stout any way), and to get the required bitterness for a stout, you really need more of it (as it is lower in AA%). I was too scared to properly bitter anything when I went from Kit and kilo to extract plus grains. But now I am more confident with it (and have programs to calculate bitterness), I'm happy to bitter up. But the choc malt (and more so the roasted dark malt) adds its own bitterness before hops even come into it.

I love noble hops, but in beers that need it (like lagers, pale ales, amber ales, belgians).


----------



## bum (29/6/10)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I didn't boil, just steeped.
> 
> Technically from an AG point of view, this isn't correct. But the majority of the fermentable sugars were in the kit (or unhopped extract), so no issue.


 
Ideally you'd be boiling the resulting liquor from your grain steep to reduce the risk of infection.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/6/10)

bum said:


> Ideally you'd be boiling the resulting liquor from your grain steep to reduce the risk of infection.



I sort of boiled it, by leaving the heat on.

Like I said, not the technically correct thing to do, I now know, but it is what I did, so I answered the questions truthfully.  

If I knew what I did now, I'd 1. Done AG anyway, as BIAB is dead-easy and 2. if I did do K&K, I'd steep, sparge and boil.

I never did get an infection with the darker beers. I always found that the margin for error on darker beers is far higher than lighter beers. Probably because the roasted grains would hide any off-flavours? Don't know.

Not saying this is "go out and do it" advice, more "this is what I did for years and got consistent results I was happy with".

My actual advice would be - go and find Nick_JD's guide to all grain brewing for less than 30 bucks - your brewing will come ahead in leaps and bounds if you do. If making a dark ale, use mostly pale grains and some roasted/choc malt to bring the colour up. Again, margin for error is pretty good on dark beers.


----------



## Nodrog (29/6/10)

thanks Lord RG, all good advise.
I've done 2 AG's exactly as you describe, following NickJD's guide, and have been very pleased with the results.

So why am I working backwards up the list, not down it? With a 17litre kettle the most ive got into the FV has been 16 litres, that's concentrated boil and then diluting, and for a 6 hrs work I just can't justify it. I'm going to try going back to kits, but will spend a bit of time on some extra's to try and up the ante slightly.

sorry OP, we're sort of on topic, I think....


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/6/10)

Nodrog said:


> thanks Lord RG, all good advise.
> I've done 2 AG's exactly as you describe, following NickJD's guide, and have been very pleased with the results.
> 
> So why am I working backwards up the list, not down it? With a 17litre kettle the most ive got into the FV has been 16 litres, that's concentrated boil and then diluting, and for a 6 hrs work I just can't justify it. I'm going to try going back to kits, but will spend a bit of time on some extra's to try and up the ante slightly.
> ...



It does take longer I grant that. My AG are marathons. It's better with sport and/or socialising. I also picked up a couple of pots from big w on special, so I can lay a couple of batches down concurrently, thus halving the brew time per batch.

I would never go back to kits, but I would consider going back to extract plus hops plus grains, if I could justify the taste v time equation.

The reason I say that I'd never go back to kits is 
1. I like having my own hops - you can really personalise your beers by choosing its hop profile (eg. using nelson sauvin - great hop, but would never find its way into a kit) 
2. Adding sugar to get the abv up indicates a severe degredation of the malt (which is what I've noted with kit instructions); and 
3. If I'm going to add grain to up the flavour, then it isn't going to save me time going from extract back to kit. Either way you need to steep/boil, which means that the boiling of hops isn't going to waste any more time. And the result will be far better. You don't get the ability to a good pale ale from a kit, as they are almost all hopped with POR (which I'm not a fan of). Experimenting with all sorts of hops does improve the flavour of beer remarkably.

With going to extract, you really need a base malt you like and then buy a few other malts for the flavour. My current dark ale has 5 different malts and it makes a difference to the flavour in terms of broadening it, as does the judicious use of hops. I'd never get that result with a kit, though I could get a fair way there with extract plus grain plus hops.


----------



## bow_staff_skills (29/6/10)

Nodrog said:


> So why am I working backwards up the list, not down it? ... for a 6 hrs work I just can't justify it. I'm going to try going back to kits, but will spend a bit of time on some extra's to try and up the ante slightly.
> 
> sorry OP, we're sort of on topic, I think....



as long as were off topic...

ive been brewing for 6 weeks (and doing a hell of alot of reading in that time).
1st brew = kit and kilo
2nd brew = extract
3rd brew = jumping into the deep end following Nicks guide for dr smurtos all grain golden ale

i can safely say, after half a day of trying to mash 4.5kgs of grain in my 3 biggest pots in the house, on my bbq (no i dont have the right gear) that im going to stick with extract for a while. 
for me (personal opinion), unless that base malt adds some dramatic falvours, im not feeling inclined to torture myself again when i could use extract to ensure i hit my gravity (which im certain i didnt on the weekend) and a smaller mash incl hops to add flavour


----------



## RobboMC (29/6/10)

The old saying that you get what you pay for applies equally to kits.

Somewhere in the past someone explained to me the big difference between the Coopers Original kits and the Connisiours kits
is the variation from batch to batch. I have never had a bad Coopers kit; but the beer from the top range cans is always noticably better than the low range. It is worth the trip to the HBS and worth the extra few $.

Having said that I had a year where I had precious little time for brewing, so one evening while I was minding the kids I knocked up a Coopers Dark Ale kit while I was cooking dinner, better than empty bottles and nothing to drink. Of course I couldn't resist an extra can of dark malt and a handful of dry hops, and the beer was Ok.

You will always get better beer from a better effort, all other things like your ability and cleanliness being equal. The more boiling of hops and steeping of grains you do the better your beer will become; and yes it can be tasted. I've kept a couple of old brews and they are quite inferior to my recent good stuff.

A brewer once told me that Muntons make the best kits. Some years back I got an honarable mention at a brew comp for a kits'n'bits dark ale that contained a Muntons kit. The judges thought it was that good, enough said!

I use the good kits to save time on processing all that grain and not having to do a full lengthy boil, I'm basically paying someone else to do it for me. But there comes a time when you feel the need to step up to the next level; so you do.


Step 1 - stop adding sugar, add malt instead

Step 2 - stop adding plain malt, add flavoured malt instead, stop using cheap kits

Step 3 - add so much more malt that you need to boil in extra hops; use only the best kits

Step 4 - reduce use of malt and start mini-mashing grain

Step 5 - stop using any kits

Step 6 - stop using malt and go all grain


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/6/10)

RobboMC said:


> The old saying that you get what you pay for applies equally to kits.
> 
> Somewhere in the past someone explained to me the big difference between the Coopers Original kits and the Connisiours kits
> is the variation from batch to batch. I have never had a bad Coopers kit; but the beer from the top range cans is always noticably better than the low range. It is worth the trip to the HBS and worth the extra few $.
> ...



I graduated from coopers/home brand/brigalow (yes I started with brigalow) to muntons. The change is immense.

However, I say to anyone who is going to Kit and Kilo - don't. If time is your currency, you are going to spend the same amount of time doing extract plus grain and hops as you are doing kit and kilo. And the increase in quality is noticeable.

If quality is your currency, then AG and practice.

I'm almost at the stage where I'm willing to enter a beer into a comp. Almost. Dunno if I have the guts.


----------



## the_yobbo (29/6/10)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> However, I say to anyone who is going to Kit and Kilo - don't. If time is your currency, you are going to spend the same amount of time doing extract plus grain and hops as you are doing kit and kilo. And the increase in quality is noticeable.



I have to respectfully disagree. Doing kit n Kilo weather using 1kg of dex or some sort of combination of dex, corn syrup and/or DME is way quicker than extract plus grain and hops. 
Boiling 2 L of water, adding fermentables and tin to the fermenter and disolving. Top up with cold water and pitch yeast. That has gotta take 20 minutes tops.
Compared to extracts, grains and hops where you've gotta get a rolling boil for at least 30 mins (usually 60), then cooling it down, etc., there is a big time difference.

Agreed that the extra time is worth it to get some great tasting beers.

I wouldn't recommend anyone to completely skip doing kit n kilo brews. I beleive doing at least 1 brew with a coopers kit and a kilo of dex is wise before trying alternative fermentables. Second brew possible start trying the various brew booster/enhancer fermentable packs sold by homebrew stores. Give teabag hops a go. Etc.

I've done about 20 brews with kits and have now just stepped into the extract +hops brewing. 

My 2c


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/6/10)

The Muzz said:


> I have to respectfully disagree. Doing kit n Kilo weather using 1kg of dex or some sort of combination of dex, corn syrup and/or DME is way quicker than extract plus grain and hops.
> Boiling 2 L of water, adding fermentables and tin to the fermenter and disolving. Top up with cold water and pitch yeast. That has gotta take 20 minutes tops.
> Compared to extracts, grains and hops where you've gotta get a rolling boil for at least 30 mins (usually 60), then cooling it down, etc., there is a big time difference.
> 
> ...



I take on board your disagreeance and see your point of view. With Dry Malt Extract, it is defintetly quicker. I will correct my comment below.

However, I would quickly move on from using Dry Malt Extract (very quickly in fact). The variety is limited. Even at brew shops. The variety of grains out there are incredible, by comparison and you can really make some great beers.

I did one DME plus kit as a step up to using grain with a kit and there is a noticeable increase in quality.

So I qualify my comments with:

If you are using kit plus grain, it is not any quicker than extract plus hop plus grain. But DME is quicker. However, don't linger at using Kit plus DME, go up to grain. The results are way better.

Kit and Kilo is a worthy step, as is using DME, hop teabags and the like. But don't hang around at that step. The 2 biggest steps up in quality are next - which is grain with kit, and then extract, grain and hops.


----------



## Kevman (29/6/10)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> However, I say to anyone who is going to Kit and Kilo - don't.



This just sh!ts me to tears. Gee if we wanted to discuss AG then we would go to the AG forum. If we want to discuss Kits and Extracts then we come to this forum. 

I've never seen anyone on the AG forum when a question is asked say "You should do Kits and Bits - that'll solve your issue"

Why does every AG'er think that everyone should become like them? Do we ask every swimmer, runner, athlete, etc if they are going to participate in the Olympics?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/6/10)

Kevman said:


> This just sh!ts me to tears. Gee if we wanted to discuss AG then we would go to the AG forum. If we want to discuss Kits and Extracts then we come to this forum.
> 
> I've never seen anyone on the AG forum when a question is asked say "You should do Kits and Bits - that'll solve your issue"
> 
> Why does every AG'er think that everyone should become like them? Do we ask every swimmer, runner, athlete, etc if they are going to participate in the Olympics?



My apologies for any offense caused. It was not my intention to paint K&B as a poor cousin.

My statement about "if you want to do kit and kilo - don't" (which I subsequently qualified by saying "kit and grain") - is simply a statement that for the same cost and time of doing a kit brew with extra grains, you may as well do an extract brew with grains and hops. Same time, same skills, better result.

I've only been doing AG for a few weeks and only 4 batches, so I'm not an expert, nor probably even an AG'er. And I'm not saying that everyone should go AG. In fact, in the time versus quality equation, I think that extract plus grain & hops is the best result given limited time. I did it for 10 years, so I consider that I have some knowledge to impart on this.

The argument I put forth is that I progressed very quickly from basic kit, to kit and DME, kit and grain, to extract, grain & hops - and that extract, grain and hops gives the best result of the 4 and is as quick as kit plus grains.

And I think that every extract brewer should try AG using the Brew in a bag method - if for no other reason than education and understanding the range of ingredients out there. I have learned more from doing 4 AGs and the research involved than I did from 10 years of extract brewing. Even if you go back to extract (and I may), the lessons learned are valuable and you will understand how to make better beers using extract ingredients.


----------



## bow_staff_skills (29/6/10)

geeesaaas .. kevs on a hair trigger


----------



## manticle (29/6/10)

Kevman said:


> This just sh!ts me to tears. Gee if we wanted to discuss AG then we would go to the AG forum. If we want to discuss Kits and Extracts then we come to this forum.
> 
> I've never seen anyone on the AG forum when a question is asked say "You should do Kits and Bits - that'll solve your issue"
> 
> Why does every AG'er think that everyone should become like them? Do we ask every swimmer, runner, athlete, etc if they are going to participate in the Olympics?



Not every.

I agree though - it's about taking what you have at your disposal and mnaking the best of it.

Ag is capable of making some great beer but there's also more variables and more things that can go wrong - therefore it stands to reason that AG can also make bad beer. It's not a magic carpet or holy grail.

Get fermentation processes right, get sanitiation right, get temp control right and you will make decent consistent beer. I'm a big believer in quality ingredients but there's a qualifier - what you do with them is at LEAST as important as what they are. 

I already said similar a couple of posts back but thought it worth repeating.


----------



## Nodrog (30/6/10)

oops, sorry, I didn't want to start WW3.

My motivation is that yes i've tried AG, (as per AG for $30 thread), and yes, it's a nice drop for $30 on equipment. However, at the moment I'm not in a position to spend more than $30, and as good as it was, I can't justify spending 6 hours making 12 bottles of beer. Yes, I know I could make 120 bottles in the same 6 hours, with the equipment, but i haven't got it, and won't be getting it, at least for a while.

So, given that the production time has to be less than the drinking time, i'm going to go a kit next time, but will spend an hour so preparing some additions, and should get 28-30 bottles out of the batch. It seems as if a mixture of dex, DME, and some steeped special grains briefly boiled will be worthwhile, so will let you know the results !

Thanks all, and back on topic, apologies OP, yes, it seems extra money on more expensive kits is worthwhile?


----------



## brettprevans (30/6/10)

Kevman said:


> I've never seen anyone on the AG forum when a question is asked say "You should do Kits and Bits - that'll solve your issue"


really. youve obviously never read posts by any number of members on the forum including myself, manticle, butters, etc etc.

anyway back OT

IMO, the expensive kits aren't worth the money if you going to stick with k&k/K&b. you'll get a much better result using stock kits with your own blend of dex/malt/maltodex and some spec grains and yeasts.

I tried the expensive kits back in the day and I got better results with standard kits and add some bits. its also cheaper.

now if you were only going to use a tin of goo nothing else, then yeah a 'premuim' can should be better than a homebrand can. but the $40 you could fork out for say Muntons Smuggler ale is not as good as a tin of say coopers and some added bits. 

you can make good beers with k&k/k&b. you just have to know how.


----------



## Bribie G (30/6/10)

katzke said:


> Boy they sell a bunch of the cans so they must be good. I say look for the sell by or use by date and if it is fresh brew with it.
> 
> You will most likely will do better using fresh extract with grain and hop additions then using kits.
> 
> ...



We use the British form and would say "Rat's Arse" - Ass is what Jesus rode into Jerusalem on as in the sentence "And Jesus tied his ass to the wall and walked a hundred yards into the temple" :icon_cheers:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (30/6/10)

citymorgue2 said:


> really. youve obviously never read posts by any number of members on the forum including myself, manticle, butters, etc etc.
> 
> anyway back OT
> 
> ...



+1. Muntons is great though. But you're right about this. If you are using nothing but kit, then a dearer kit is better. A cheap kit plus bits is better than a dearer kit alone and a dearer kit plus bits is better than a cheaper kit. My first stout ever was a kit with DME and it turned out really good. Cheapest stout ever for a uni student.

But I reiterate my comment above. If you are going to do kit plus _grain_ (not kit plus dry or liquid extract), then you are better taking the small leap and doing extract plus grain plus hops. The time taken is the same as kit plus_ grain_, and the results are more customisable and generally better. 

My big issue with kit vs extract is that I don't always know what hops they put in a kit. And once I got a handle on what a difference hops do make to your brew (in terms of customisability), I made better beers with extract.

As for grain vs DME/LME, I much prefer grain. It is _slower_ than using DME/LME, but the range of ingredients (and therefore the range of customisability) is way bigger.


----------



## manticle (30/6/10)

Nodrog said:


> oops, sorry, I didn't want to start WW3.



it's a discussion, not a war. Don't worry about it. Dissent is good.


----------



## bum (30/6/10)

No it isn't.


----------



## manticle (30/6/10)

I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.


----------



## DU99 (30/6/10)

people have to remember not everyone has the facilties to make beer with grains,or the cost of getting them is prohibitive..


----------



## Shed101 (30/6/10)

manticle said:


> I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.



that's not an argument it's contradiction!


----------



## bum (30/6/10)

I get my grain from QLD. If you have a mailbox the cost is not prohibitive.


----------



## enuun (30/6/10)

Hi guys,

I have only so far steeped crystal malt.
Was actually fairly surprised to read from here that we can steep grains like chocolate malt too?
I read up on the mash and mini-mash stuff but they were did not mention a specific temperature. Does temp of water used in steeping like chocolate malt matters? or jus hot water will do.
Thanks guys


----------



## barls (30/6/10)

my preference is for kits with bits if im going to do one. must make some again soon just for drinking stocks.
as for steeping i use to just boil the kettle and then pour on but i would boil the resultant liquid with some hops.
saying all this my raspberry wheat was a kit beer and even after a year it was a great beer.


----------



## manticle (1/7/10)

enuun said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have only so far steeped crystal malt.
> Was actually fairly surprised to read from here that we can steep grains like chocolate malt too?
> ...



You can steep in any temp really - you just don't want to boil the actual grains. You can even steep cold. Cooking experience tells me heat extracts quicker than cold (not necessarily better) so a cold steep should be 12 - 24 hours.

However it is often recommended to steep in water around 70 as that is the high end of the mashing range and is good practice for mashing. In this temp, steep for 30 - 60 minutes.


----------



## enuun (1/7/10)

manticle said:


> You can steep in any temp really - you just don't want to boil the actual grains. You can even steep cold. Cooking experience tells me heat extracts quicker than cold (not necessarily better) so a cold steep should be 12 - 24 hours.
> 
> However it is often recommended to steep in water around 70 as that is the high end of the mashing range and is good practice for mashing. In this temp, steep for 30 - 60 minutes.



Lovely.

Thank you manticle


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (1/7/10)

manticle said:


> You can steep in any temp really - you just don't want to boil the actual grains. You can even steep cold. Cooking experience tells me heat extracts quicker than cold (not necessarily better) so a cold steep should be 12 - 24 hours.
> 
> However it is often recommended to steep in water around 70 as that is the high end of the mashing range and is good practice for mashing. In this temp, steep for 30 - 60 minutes.



+1. I used to steep at almost boiling temperatures, but I've since found out that this can leave a tannin taste in the beer (like bitter tea). But in a stout, it wasn't noticeable.

70 degrees gets the good sugars out without any nasty tastes. Simple rule is 65-75 will do the trick. the lower it is (i.e. the closer to 65), the more fermentables only come from the malt and the higher (i.e. closer to 75) the more body, but not fermentables. The reason is that the lower range converts starch to fermentable sugar and high range converts to dextrose.

So if you are doing a dark beer or stout and the grains are for flavour (and body), then I suggest maybe 72 degrees (75 is pushing it). Don't forget that if you are chucking it in, that the grain being cooler will lower the water temp by about 3-5 degrees, so I generally have strike temp (i.e the temp when you chuck grains into hot water) at around 5 degrees above what my mash/steep temp is.


----------



## Shed101 (1/7/10)

Being the lazy arse that I am I use water from the hot tap which is almost bang on 70 C and let that sit.


----------



## earle (1/7/10)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> 70 degrees gets the good sugars out without any nasty tastes. Simple rule is 65-75 will do the trick. the lower it is (i.e. the closer to 65), the more fermentables only come from the malt and the higher (i.e. closer to 75) the more body, but not fermentables. The reason is that the lower range converts starch to fermentable sugar and high range converts to dextrose.
> 
> So if you are doing a dark beer or stout and the grains are for flavour (and body), then I suggest maybe 72 degrees (75 is pushing it). Don't forget that if you are chucking it in, that the grain being cooler will lower the water temp by about 3-5 degrees, so I generally have strike temp (i.e the temp when you chuck grains into hot water) at around 5 degrees above what my mash/steep temp is.



These temperature are probably more applicable to mashing. Aren't the sugars in crystal malts already converted? So all your really doing is extracting them from the grains. As Manticle said you can do it with cool water but try to avoid going too much over 70C which will extract tannins as well as sugars.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (1/7/10)

earle said:


> These temperature are probably more applicable to mashing. Aren't the sugars in crystal malts already converted? So all your really doing is extracting them from the grains. As Manticle said you can do it with cool water but try to avoid going too much over 70C which will extract tannins as well as sugars.



My bad, didn't read the crystal malts bit....

It does help thought to know these things about getting stuff from grains and the way temp works. That way, if you ever wish to move on to AG, most of the mental effort is sorted. And even if you don't want to ever go AG, it helps to make extract brews. I wish I knew this stuff when I was extract, I think it would have really helped the quality of some of my brews.


----------

