# 0 Min Hop Additions



## fletcher (22/12/12)

hey guys,

just a quick one, and forgive the lack of understanding, but i'm interested in a lot of brews that have had (by coincidence) 0 min hop additions. my question is, in using a hop bag for my hop additions (BIAB), how long do i keep the 0 min hop addition in the wort before i begin to chill? (or do i keep the bag in there while i chill?)

i'd probably look to just add the hops to the same bag continuously during the boil, so by flame out, all hop additions would still be there. 

thanks!


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## chunckious (22/12/12)

Hi Fletch,
I leave mine in for twenty mins after flame-out, before I start chilling.
On a side note, I'm noticing an effect from my bittering additions. The taste is harsh from them being in longer due to the flameout. Will start dialing back those additions or check the no chill option whenever flame-out additions occur. 

Let us know how you go.


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## brettprevans (22/12/12)

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-1.html

all new brewers should read/skim the whole palmer site/book. Loads of info.


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## whitegoose (23/12/12)

For my 0 minute additions I tend to dump them into the hop sock, give the sock a good slosh about for a minute or so, then I raise my hop sock out of the wort and whirlpool. While the whirlpool is settling I keep the sock suspended out of the wort but draining into the work, maybe for 10 minutes or so. I have a really fine mesh hop sock and it tales quite a while for the hopped up wort to drain out of there. After 10 minutes or so I run it through my plate chiller. 

I've read that it is quite common to put your 0 minute additions into the kettle and then wait for 20 minutes before chilling... but I've always though that that's not really a 0 minute addition... more like a 20 minute addition?


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## bum (23/12/12)

So anything over 59 seconds breaks the rule?

The x-minute thing is just relative to boil time, not contact time. Polyester curtain material hasn't been around all that long, you know?


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## whitegoose (23/12/12)

bum said:


> So anything over 59 seconds breaks the rule?
> 
> The x-minute thing is just relative to boil time, not contact time. Polyester curtain material hasn't been around all that long, you know?


Fair enough, point taken.... But if we're calling it a 0 minute addition, or calling it anything for that matter, there's a big difference in effect/bitterness if you leave the hops in wort at near-boiling temperature for 20 minutes VS 1 minute right? Seems a bit problematic for IBU calculations and aroma estimations if your 0 minute addition and my 0 minute addition are totally different! Does that mean that my 20 minute addition is also out of wack with traditional brewing calcukations because it's not sitting on the wort for 40 minutes total? 

Anyway my technique has worked for me so far.


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## bum (23/12/12)

whitegoose said:


> there's a big difference in effect/bitterness if you leave the hops in wort at near-boiling temperature for 20 minutes VS 1 minute right?


Definitely. However, my assumption has always been this is accounted for by centuries of practice (sure, beer is older than that but let's just talk about modern-ish processes). What I mean is that we call it a "zero minute" addition with the expectation that it will still be in contact with wort at least until chilling (equipment and technique dependent). I am well aware of assumption's close reltaives but I can't say I've read much in the way of advice suggesting I should sort of dunk and drip my zero minute additions.



whitegoose said:


> Anyway my technique has worked for me so far.


I'm totally not suggesting you should change that at all. If it ain't broke then don't fix it.

I would be curious to find out if you often think many recipes don't hit the late hops hard enough though. Or maybe if you mainly brew styles that don't lean pretty heavily on hop character.


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## mje1980 (23/12/12)

There are now so many "adjustments" for hop IBU calculations, we should all just get a chocolate wheel, and when we plan a recipe we should spin the wheel for every addition.


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## Crusty (23/12/12)

fletcher said:


> hey guys,
> 
> just a quick one, and forgive the lack of understanding, but i'm interested in a lot of brews that have had (by coincidence) 0 min hop additions. my question is, in using a hop bag for my hop additions (BIAB), how long do i keep the 0 min hop addition in the wort before i begin to chill? (or do i keep the bag in there while i chill?)
> 
> ...



I Biab & also use a hop bag.
My 0 minute hop addition is basically urn off, hops in, gather up the hop bag & out she comes.
I tend to have it done within 20 or 30 seconds, it is a 0 min hop addition not a 1 or 2 minute addition.
I also no chill so too long may have some impact on final IBU but probably diddly squat.


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## slash22000 (23/12/12)

Is there really enough time in 30 seconds for the hops to do anything for the beer? I've never really done a "Zero minute" addition before, probably because of this very confusion.


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## manticle (23/12/12)

Everybody has their different methods so I won't try and slam processes that work for others but a lot of this seems overcomplicated (in terms of thinking rather than doing).

Pellets I chuck in at whirlpool and leave, flowers I put in a minimash bag and leave.

Pretty simple.


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## Crusty (23/12/12)

slash22000 said:


> Is there really enough time in 30 seconds for the hops to do anything for the beer? I've never really done a "Zero minute" addition before, probably because of this very confusion.



As it is an aroma addition, I think 30sec at near boiling temp is ample time.
If you leave it for longer, you may get slightly more aroma but I have never tried it.
I've found the aroma in the finished beer quite good so it works for me.
As a no chiller, the longer contact time may affect the IBU somewhat but like I said before, probably not enough to worry about.


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## Yob (23/12/12)

Ive always taken (my understanding only) 0 min additions to be at WP, even then they get 10-15 min for convection and a further 10-15 for whirlpool, 

If I had to adjust everything for that Id be doing my bittering at 15 min...

er.. whatever works yeah  

:icon_cheers:


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## Thefatdoghead (23/12/12)

I always understood that a 0 minute addition was just to steep while whirlpool and cooldown and if it's a 2 minute addition then it's a short boiling and followed by steeping. I just put the 0 minute addition in and whirlpool or cool to 80 degrees then put the 0 minute addition in.


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## Markbeer (23/12/12)

Longer contact time with hot wort?

I believe even if you remove the hops with a bag the oils that you have extracted stay in the wort and if not chilled or waiting some time will continue to extract bitterness.




Crusty said:


> As it is an aroma addition, I think 30sec at near boiling temp is ample time.
> If you leave it for longer, you may get slightly more aroma but I have never tried it.
> I've found the aroma in the finished beer quite good so it works for me.
> As a no chiller, the longer contact time may affect the IBU somewhat but like I said before, probably not enough to worry about.


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## Crusty (23/12/12)

Markbeer said:


> Longer contact time with hot wort?
> 
> I believe even if you remove the hops with a bag the oils that you have extracted stay in the wort and if not chilled or waiting some time will continue to extract bitterness.



Yep!
That's why I don't leave the actual hop bag in there for any length of time.
Of course the oils will still be in the wort but the clumped majority of hops have been removed & I believe there is less chance of extracting any more bitterness.
If I left the whole bag with hops in there for say 20mins or so, I believe the resultant wort will be a touch more bitter than if I had removed them.
I haven't actually done a side by side test so can't comment on what would actually happen but I'm happy with the aroma that the quick 0 minute addition gives me so haven't really seen the need to leave them there any longer.


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## Midnight Brew (23/12/12)

I calculate my whirpool addition as 20 mins and then for the 1 minute addition I put my hops in a pot and add boiling water then straight into the fermenter 4-5 days in. Everything seems to be in target so far. Just need to allow for 2 days to chill prior to packaging to avoid hop debris ending up in the keg or bottle.


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## fletcher (24/12/12)

cheers all, just made my first BIAB dr smurto's golden ale and only just now realized the 0 min additions were the dry hop additions so I'll skip those now. We ended up keeping the dry hops I for about 15-20 mins before the ice bath. I'll see how that turns out and probably keep that the same or tailor it depending on taste and aroma


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## manticle (24/12/12)

Dry hops are usually added post or during fermentation as opposed to before chilling.

I recommend keeping it simple to start so you learn what things do - make it more complicated if you are not happy with the results and want to try out a different idea.

Dry hop - at FG throw some hops in.
0 mins - at flameout or whirlpool, throw some hops in. 

In both instances, leave them there unless you are using flowers (bag those).

That's as complicated as it needs to be.


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## bum (24/12/12)

mje1980 said:


> There are now so many "adjustments" for hop IBU calculations, we should all just get a chocolate wheel, and when we plan a recipe we should spin the wheel for every addition.





Midnight Brew said:


> I calculate my whirpool addition as 20 mins and then for the 1 minute addition I put my hops in a pot and add boiling water then straight into the fermenter 4-5 days in.


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## Thirsty Boy (24/12/12)

Why do people want rules with hop additions when its plain as the nose on your face that anything after a 30 min addition is just the ******* devil's work? Take a guess, look to heaven, dance 3 times anti clockwose around the brew pot without your undies on and have a go - brew a lot and see what works for you.

Its that - or invest a shitload of time effort and self education into learning the absolute minutiae of hop science - and I mean that with an IBD diploma in brewing.... I'm still looking at the science and thinking "fuckit - I'll just give it a crack and see what ends up working" level detail. Its too much. You make your daily bread off it like someone akin to a Matt Bryndilson and sure, make it your thing, amaze the general brewing public with your geeky hop knowledge - otherwise just admit its a black art and get to burning some hemlock.

I'm not saying there isn't more basic stuff to learn - I'm just saying that I dont think it will do you all that much good.

I love hopback additions - so thats zero minutes and basically seconds and no more of contact time
The next guy says add em to the whirlpool - and then immersion chill
The next guy says add em to the whirlpool - and then CF chill
The next guy says you need at least 20mins contact with hot wort....
blah blah - different homebrewing book, different forum, different post, different brewer - different answer
It's just ******* voodoo!

Pick a guru - someone who's beer you've had a few times, someone who made beer who's hop character knocked your socks off - do what they do... they're obviously not ******* it up.

THEN - tweak if you're not happy.

Dont look for "the" answer on hops, there jus isn't one.

TB


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## fletcher (24/12/12)

manticle said:


> Dry hops are usually added post or during fermentation as opposed to before chilling.
> 
> I recommend keeping it simple to start so you learn what things do - make it more complicated if you are not happy with the results and want to try out a different idea.
> 
> ...




thanks mate. 

what i meant was, i mistook the 0 min hop addition for the dry hop addition, so i already added them in and don't need to now. all sweet


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## fletcher (24/12/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Why do people want rules with hop additions when its plain as the nose on your face that anything after a 30 min addition is just the ******* devil's work? Take a guess, look to heaven, dance 3 times anti clockwose around the brew pot without your undies on and have a go - brew a lot and see what works for you.
> 
> Its that - or invest a shitload of time effort and self education into learning the absolute minutiae of hop science - and I mean that with an IBD diploma in brewing.... I'm still looking at the science and thinking "fuckit - I'll just give it a crack and see what ends up working" level detail. Its too much. You make your daily bread off it like someone akin to a Matt Bryndilson and sure, make it your thing, amaze the general brewing public with your geeky hop knowledge - otherwise just admit its a black art and get to burning some hemlock.
> 
> ...



that was the plan. to get ideas and make it my own. i only asked for general ideas so i didn't do something drastically wrong and ruin a batch. i need that as a new brewer. once i know i can go from there on my own and stay away from all the keyboard warriors.


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## Screwtop (24/12/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Why do people want rules with hop additions when its plain as the nose on your face that anything after a 30 min addition is just the ******* devil's work?
> 
> I'm still looking at the science and thinking "fuckit - I'll just give it a crack and see what ends up working"
> 
> ...





HAHAHAHAHAHA! There's my Christmas Laugh,

True words, thanks Dan

Screwy


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## Byran (24/12/12)

I like hops :icon_drunk:


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## Brooa (21/1/16)

The smartest words ever spoken to me in a brewery, were by a now retired Head Brewer. I was stressing about stuff & he said, "Slow down, take a big breath. At the end of the day, It's only piss."
Yes, there is a science to it, but it is a long way from an exact science.


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## motman (22/1/16)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Why do people want rules with hop additions when its plain as the nose on your face that anything after a 30 min addition is just the ******* devil's work? Take a guess, look to heaven, dance 3 times anti clockwose around the brew pot without your undies on and have a go - brew a lot and see what works for you.
> 
> TB


Don't pay any attention to the above.. It's clockwise and you can leave your undies on as long as you have taken your socks off


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## danestead (22/1/16)

motman said:


> Don't pay any attention to the above.. It's clockwise and you can leave your undies on as long as you have taken your socks off


Any babe that looks remotely similar to your avatar can walk around without her undies on and I dont even care if she still has her socks on.


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## Killer Brew (22/1/16)

Best advice i have had on hops is to calculate ibu's backwards from latest additions to earliest. Get the flavour / aroma right first and then top up your ibu's with the amount of bittering hops required. Sorry if this is bleeding obvious to most but i was working with too much focus on bittering hops in my early days. Using late hops to deliver more of my ibu's has been a revelation!


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## Coldspace (22/1/16)

I just throw mine into cube at no chill. Any receipe with additions 15 mins to 0 mins. Easy as , beer always turns out great, can't stop mates coming over, my wife's had enough . Lol


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## Mattrox (22/1/16)

Coldspace said:


> can't stop mates coming over, my wife's had enough . Lol


 :blink:
What the hell? You need different mates!!


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## danestead (22/1/16)

You guys all realise this is a 2012 thread yeah?


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## Mattrox (22/1/16)

danestead said:


> You guys all realise this is a 2012 thread yeah?


What's wrong with getting the old toys out to play?


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## danestead (22/1/16)

Mattrox said:


> What's wrong with getting the old toys out to play?


Nothing. Some people look like they are replying to the original posters question though and I dare say he has got it figured out by now or given up haha


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