# Using Cubes For Storing Wort



## kelbygreen (4/1/10)

Hey,

I am off to bunnings tomorrow to get a cube to store my wort in when I brew later in the week as have 2 recipes and want to just brew both on the same day. When I want to put my wort in the cube should I just half fill it with water then add the wort as It will only be a 5lt boil also would you add the rest of the fermentables to the cube or the fermenter?

Then do I just squeeze all the air out and put the cap on??? then when I got to ferment it just pour into the fermenter and add the rest of the water (maybe add fermentables now?) ??? 

another question to do with the hops do you strain the hops off or just add the pellets to the cube with the wort.


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## manticle (4/1/10)

Cubing works because you put hot (90+ deg) wort into a reasonably oxygen free, sealed container with little to no headspace. The heat sanitises (although container still should be clean and sanitary) and the lack of oxygen prevents bugs growing during cooling and storage. If you put lukewarm wort into the container (which is what will happen with a 5L boil and some tap water) you will defeat this purpose.

No chill/cubing needs to be done full volume. You can do full volume extract brewing if you have the appropriate size brewpot or you could try and find a much smaller cube that fits the 5 L. The way you have it at the moment won't work (according to no chill principles - you may still be lucky but it goes against the elemental principles of brewing).

Generally, regardless of cubing, I'd add extra fermentables to the last 10 or so minutes of the boil just to help with dissolution.


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## Jazman (4/1/10)

better of getting another fermentor for 30 bucks and two 2 brews as per normal or get a fermentor from the big green shed and drill a hole for the gromet in the lid as cube would have a narrow neck and it be harder to clean and use as a fermenter if you are thinking no chill it wont work for a kit brew only all grain as the hot wort would sterilize the cube


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## Bribie G (4/1/10)

If you are going to end up with 5L of boiling wort you want to keep for a week or two then use one of these, about $8 each from Bunnos. 





I actually used them to split a full mash brew into four parts, and used each one in a partial brew along with some extra sugars and a can. I used the last one after about 4 months.

Edit: and it turned out the pick of the bunch :lol: :lol:


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## b_thomas (4/1/10)

BribieG said:


> If you are going to end up with 5L of boiling wort you want to keep for a week or two then use one of these, about $8 each from Bunnos.
> 
> View attachment 34373
> 
> ...



Just looking at those plastic jerries it looks to me like a they have too much headspace. How do you find the effect of oxidisation?


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## Bribie G (4/1/10)

I gave the headspace a good dunking to sanitize, but I wondered that same thing myself about the airspace, but they turned out ok. I'm in two minds about how problematic oxidation actually is, there are heaps of people on the brewing forums who tell you that no chill cubing cannot possibly work because HDPE is pervious to oxygen, as well. Doesn't seem to stop breweries putting out fresh wort kits. And most bottling in glass leaves an airspace above the beer that doesn't seem to do it much harm.


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## Fourstar (4/1/10)

BribieG said:


> And most bottling in glass leaves an airspace above the beer that doesn't seem to do it much harm.



If its naturally carbonated its chewed up by the yeast in the bottle, if its unnaturally carbed its purged CO2


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## kelbygreen (4/1/10)

ahh ok I see well I want a second fermenter so might just do that. also can the cube be used to rack into for a secondary/lager as that was the other reason I wanted it so I can rack into and brew another beer while that CC in another fridge for a week or 2. or is it best to just leave in the fermenter or rack to the second fermenter and CC in there. 

Might look around for a smaller container just to keep wort in as one is a lager and the other is a ale so I cant ferment both at once  would like to just do one brew day but guess I can deal with 2 lol


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## Jazman (4/1/10)

i do use a cube to lager or secondary do to a low headspace and i have temp control that helps


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## manticle (4/1/10)

You can rack and even ferment in a cube. Just buy a tap or two.


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## kelbygreen (4/1/10)

yeah cool so might look for a cube to just to lager in but with 2 fermenters I may not need one just yet. would be good to do 2 brews at once if they are both the same yeast ( fridge permitting) lol but then again one may be cooler or hotter then the other plus more thermal mass to cool so prob best to stick with 1 at a time lol


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## Bribie G (4/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> If its naturally carbonated its chewed up by the yeast in the bottle, if its unnaturally carbed its purged CO2



Yes that occurred to me immediately after posting  Roll on my Counter Pressure Bottle Filler


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## Cocko (4/1/10)

Kelbygreen,

A good tip when buying a cube - put the lid on, lay it down on the floor then kneel on it to check for leaks!!

Trust me, a simple worth while instore exercise!!

OR if you get it home and it does leak - check the cube lip where the lid seals and if moulding seams are on it - flatten it some how... stanley knife, file etc....

Just some thoughts outside using it but getting it right to use! :icon_cheers:


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## kelbygreen (5/1/10)

yeah I know what you are saying my 4lt drink bottle had the same issue I had to sand the bit back where it leaked from the mould. Acctually a 4lt drink bottle will prob hold my wort if I made a smaller boil. Its only ever had water in it but the lid is not 100% air tight as its got a spout in the lid. maybe buy another one with a better lid


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## manticle (5/1/10)

Check it with boiling water first. Not all plastic copes well with heat.


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## kelbygreen (5/1/10)

yeah good point. will have a look around today might find one that can take heat if not will buy one and try boiling water to see if it holds up dont want the chemicals from the plastic leaching into the wort from the heat eather


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## Thirsty Boy (5/1/10)

BribieG said:


> I gave the headspace a good dunking to sanitize, but I wondered that same thing myself about the airspace, but they turned out ok. I'm in two minds about how problematic oxidation actually is, there are heaps of people on the brewing forums who tell you that no chill cubing cannot possibly work because HDPE is pervious to oxygen, as well. Doesn't seem to stop breweries putting out fresh wort kits. And most bottling in glass leaves an airspace above the beer that doesn't seem to do it much harm.



Its more about HSA with no-chill. You have oxygen on the cube, you have hot wort, you have very long contact times between the two. HDPE is pervious to oxygen, especially so at higher temperatures.. but not as pervious as having actual air in there. So squeezing out the air is a way to minimise (not eliminate) the oxidation of your hot wort. As per normal HSA - any effect isn't something you would notice in the beers (well, maybe it would darken a little more than otherwise... maybe) it is just that you beer might not be as resistant to aging as otherwise it would be. Thats what HSA does... it would have to be truly massive for you to notice any flavour contribution in fresh beer.

Enough people dont worry about the headspace in no-chill so that its no tragedy if you don't squeeze it out... but if your container allows it without too great an effort - why wouldn't you take the opportunity to limit your exposure to a potential issue?




Fourstar said:


> If its naturally carbonated its chewed up by the yeast in the bottle, if its unnaturally carbed its purged CO2



Kinda, sorta, not really...

Oxygen in bottles, naturally conditioned or not, is about the most important factor in how fast your beers stale. If naturally carbonated bottles were proof against it because of the yeast... they would never oxidise. And they do. They hold up better than most force carbed beers though, thats true.

As for purging by C02... only if you go to a fair amount of effort. Just filling a bottle with carbonated beer and hoping that the C02 will form the mythical "blanket" is far from completely effective.

At the least - always cap on foam - never cap on empty headspace.

TB


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## manticle (5/1/10)

Good to know - I've been filling into the neck but leaving a touch of headspace in each bottles. I'll now fill any that require ageing (like my robust porter and dubbel attempts) right to the top.

I haven't noticed any oxidation so far but I'm pretty terrible at ageing (getting better but oldest are onlt ever 2 months so far).


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## DKS (5/1/10)

manticle said:


> You can rack and even ferment in a cube. Just buy a tap or two.



Ive tried this out of necessity. Works fine for ferment but cleaning is a PITA. Try to avoid if pos. :icon_cheers: 
Daz


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## manticle (5/1/10)

I just fill with hot water and sodium percarb (straight away is preferable). Never had a problem, garden doesn't mind a dose or two of this on a regular basis.


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## kelbygreen (5/1/10)

> At the least - always cap on foam - never cap on empty headspace.



so its ok to fill bottles right to the top??? I thought the air gap was for when it carbonates so the bottles dont explode. Although have never read or heard of any thing of the such just assumed lol as alot of the guides say to leave a air gap but never say why. If its fine to fill to the top dont know why they say other wise. might try it on a bottle or 2 and keep them seperate to see if there is any effect.

went to bunnings to see what they had. They have 5lt cubes and 20lt ones was hoping for a 22lt but guess make a 21lt batch to fill the 20lt for CC. I didnt like the quality of them, they had willow ones which was alot better but seemed like they would be imposible to sqeeze any air out. might look in the camping store down the road see if they have better quality ones there.


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## Thirsty Boy (5/1/10)

erm - I think I typed faster than my underdeveloped brain can think straight..



> at least always cap on foam


 ..... thats about filling with pre-carbonated beer, not bottle conditioning. Thats not what I said - but its what I should have said. I have no damn idea what would happen if you filled a bottle conditioned beer all the way to the top. I can't see that it would make a heap of difference, except for a mess when you opened it - but it might??

It would certainly cut down on bottle oxygen, and thats a good thing in my opinion... but why change if you aren't experiencing staling problems? If you are getting oxidised beer, or you want to make a beer for aging - then think about it.


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## kelbygreen (5/1/10)

haha yeah. I drink mine to quick to even let it think about oxidisation. 

Hope to get a brew or 2 done on the weekend might pick up my brewing fridge tomorrow and see how big it is but I doubt I will get 2 fermenters in but one way to find out. Also hoping the temp control comes this week that would stop me if it doesnt


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## manticle (6/1/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> erm - I think I typed faster than my underdeveloped brain can think straight..
> 
> ..... thats about filling with pre-carbonated beer, not bottle conditioning. Thats not what I said - but its what I should have said. I have no damn idea what would happen if you filled a bottle conditioned beer all the way to the top. I can't see that it would make a heap of difference, except for a mess when you opened it - but it might??
> 
> It would certainly cut down on bottle oxygen, and thats a good thing in my opinion... but why change if you aren't experiencing staling problems? If you are getting oxidised beer, or you want to make a beer for aging - then think about it.



Well my previous experience has been that overfilled bottles (I'm talking basic bulk primed bottling processes) will, under less than ideal conditions, gush. That's why I tend to fill halfway up the bottleneck and leave a touch of headspace.

Sounds like you were talking about force carbed beer being put into bottles yes? (bottling from kegs, Counter flow pressure filler etc)

My main concern is staling problems once I've learnt to actually keep a bottle for 6 -12 months (getting closer all the time).


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## zebba (6/1/10)

My first attempt at bulk priming left me with a half filled longneck at the end. I sealed it up thinking that at worst it would be a little undercarbed. 

Wrong!

Opening it was like popping a champagne cork, and the brew inside was just the same - waayyyy overcarbed. Made champagne look like spring water. So, paranoid, I went and released pressure on the rest of the batch but they were all fine. Based on this I'd say that, from a bottlebomb perspective, you are better off overfilling then underfilling.

FTR, the champagne beer was very different (taste wise), but not in a bad way.


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## RdeVjun (6/1/10)

Zebba said:


> My first attempt at bulk priming left me with a half filled longneck at the end. I sealed it up thinking that at worst it would be a little undercarbed.
> 
> Wrong!
> 
> ...


I'm wondering if that single last- bottle gusher could be attributable to excess yeast? I do my bulk priming and bottling in another cube, usually there's some more sediment that drops out after transferring from the fermenter, particularly after an hour resting/ allowing the priming sugar solution diffuse evenly throughout the beer. That last bottle, which I'll clearly identify, depending on how much of the dregs I actually bottle, usually has much more sediment than the rest and carbs up rapidly. So I usually open it first in a batch but I do keep in mind that is was the dregs so may not be quite representative of the entire batch and quite often it is over- carbed.

Either that or it could've been imperfect mixing of the priming sugar solution and was concentrated in the bottom because of its higher density. This is one aspect of bulk priming for glass bottles that scared me initially, but it hasn't been a huge issue as carbonation levels have been quite consistent and no bottle bombs. There's also the balance between thoroughly stiring the priming sugar through and the chance of introducing more and more oxygen with the potential for reduced shelf life. To address this, I first I put the priming sugar solution (boiled) into the empty bottling cube, I gravity fill it via a hose from tap to tap, then stirring it by a few turns of the cube, its dimpled base makes an excellent but quite gentle stirrer, and I let it sit for at least half an hour before bottling.

My 2c... :icon_cheers:

Edit: Clarity...


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## zebba (6/1/10)

RdeVjun said:


> My 2c... :icon_cheers:


Interesting and plausible.

I was thinking something along the lines of CO2 goes into solution in a more compact manner than it does into air.


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## manticle (6/1/10)

Zebba said:


> My first attempt at bulk priming left me with a half filled longneck at the end. I sealed it up thinking that at worst it would be a little undercarbed.
> 
> Wrong!
> 
> ...




When bottling, I always keep a side a couple of 500mL bottles. The last one or two go in here and they are my testers. The carb will always be a bit different to the 800mL but they give me an indication. if I can't fill a bottle with the last bit I either drink it or just discard it. I've bulk primed enough times to know that I won't get bottle bombs from overcarbing (usually around 2.1-2.4 vol in strong bottles).


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## kiwisi (6/1/10)

I do what OP is thinking, sort of. Boil extract, ferment ables, hops, add water. Albeit only cube for a day then tip on top of yeast cake from previous brew, no problems.


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## HoppingMad (6/1/10)

> went to bunnings to see what they had. They have 5lt cubes and 20lt ones was hoping for a 22lt but guess make a 21lt batch to fill the 20lt for CC. I didnt like the quality of them, they had willow ones which was alot better but seemed like they would be imposible to sqeeze any air out. might look in the camping store down the road see if they have better quality ones there.



There was a heated debate on here last year about Bunnings cubes and quality. Particularly the infamous Willow Blue ones h34r: .

A handful of people had found these split after repeated use, where as another 70% of people used them without issue. Just so you are aware that some out there have had problems with these. I have used Aussie Disposals white ones without issue and these go for around $14.95 retail and as low as $10.95/$11.95 on sale.

I have used cubes with only 5 ltrs in a single cube without issue too - usually when I get excess wort from a batch I've made and am too reluctant to throw it away. I simply pour the 5 ltrs into a sanitised tube, then move the hot wort across as many surfaces within the cube to sanitise it by rocking it around. A bit more effort than simply placing a cube on its side to sanitise the lid but does the trick.

Full info on cubing and some brief stuff on dry hopping cubes in Cortez' excellent article on no-chill in the articles section:
No-Chill Method 

Hopper


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## SpillsMostOfIt (6/1/10)

HoppingMad said:


> There was a heated debate on here last year about Bunnings cubes and quality. Particularly the infamous Willow Blue ones h34r: .
> 
> ...



I bought my third and fourth blue Willow cube last year and they were awfully bad - in spite of my first two being wonderful. I believe they were a bad batch.

I bought a new third one a while later and it was and remains good. As with so many things these days, you have to be very careful...


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## kelbygreen (6/1/10)

thanks for that link never seen the no chill thing in the articles but only looked in kit/extract section. I havnt been to the camping store yet but hope to tomorrow.

The only thing in my mind if i do a 5lt boil and cube it will I add 500g DME to the boil then when I go to ferment add the wort then contents of the tin then the rest of the fermentables and water?? 

I guess this could work if i gave it a really good stir to make sure the hopped LME is mixed in.


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## manticle (6/1/10)

Could just add everything in, then cube.

When ferment time comes just add the cube to your volume of water, then pitch the yeast.


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## kelbygreen (6/1/10)

so add the whole kit? I was going to use 1kg of LDME and 250g of drextrose. this wouldnt turn to a thing goo in the 5lt cube will it???


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## manticle (6/1/10)

Not sure what you mean but it will be fine. Any residue could be rinsed out of the cube with a touch of boiling water.

Make sure whatever you buy is foodsafe.


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## kelbygreen (6/1/10)

yeah thanks. What i meant was would the LME from the kit can seatle on the bottom as well as the malt and dextrose as they would be heavier then the water. I guess if its all mixed and disolved it should be alright. Yeah I know to get food grade stuff lets hope they have some better looking things there. They may have ones that are made to take hot water not to sure but will find out


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