# Braumeister NEXTGEN Build



## matho

Two things i have been wanting to do for a while, build a small brewery so i can brew more variety of beer and play around with semi automation. After seeing the Braumeister and mulling it over for i while i decided to make one out of a 19l pot to give me about 9L of finished beer. I had a cheap Indian pot laying around so i went ahead and used that, i bought a 8l pot to use as the malt pipe, got a custom made element made up, bought a small pump and started to design the control module. I initially welded the legs straight to the pot but when i went to check for leaks one of the welds leaked and upon trying to fix it i blew a bigger hole in the pot. I went a bought a 19l pot from BIG W and made up a ring to go around the base of the pot so i could weld the legs on to that instead of welding the pot. I designed the circuit for the control module and etched the circuit boards, i wanted it all to fit into a enclosure 171mm X 121 X 80 and also for the enclosure to cover the element terminals. I have finished the pot, assembled the circuit boards and tested that all parts of the circuit are working correctly. Now what is left to do is to write up the program for the control module and start brewing, I'm going to write up the manual function first so i can test the unit out and then ill work on the automatic function. 





the first pot




the ring




fitted to the pot




all fitted out













the malt pipe in the old pot which im using in the new pot 




there will be more to come when i progress with it

cheers matho


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## kelbygreen

very nice the ring stand looks alot better then the original design


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## matho

thanks mate
yeah im really happy how that turned out


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## kelbygreen

yeah phil jones stuffed that first pot up aye? will be very interesting how this turns out. Plans for a bigger version if all goes well?


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## stef

Looks good! Seems like a lot of work for 9l though...


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## stux

+1 Like


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## Spoonta

looks good mate please keep us posted


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## matho

kelbygreen said:


> yeah phil jones stuffed that first pot up aye? will be very interesting how this turns out. Plans for a bigger version if all goes well?



hehehe damn phil jones he's a ****, i still have my bigger brewery which ill use when i need to make more beer, the control unit could be moved across to a bigger pot.



stef said:


> Looks good! Seems like a lot of work for 9l though...


 yeah but its just me drinking my beer at my place so a keg takes a long time to get thru and i end up getting bored with the beers i have on tap so i would like to brew smaller batches so i can have more variety, also being electric i can brew inside which means i can make more use of my nights


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## real_beer

matho said:


> Two things i have been wanting to do for a while, build a small brewery so i can brew more variety of beer and play around with semi automation. After seeing the Braumeister and mulling it over for i while i decided to make one out of a 19l pot to give me about 9L of finished beer. I had a cheap Indian pot laying around so i went ahead and used that, i bought a 8l pot to use as the malt pipe, got a custom made element made up, bought a small pump and started to design the control module. I initially welded the legs straight to the pot but when i went to check for leaks one of the welds leaked and upon trying to fix it i blew a bigger hole in the pot. I went a bought a 19l pot from BIG W and made up a ring to go around the base of the pot so i could weld the legs on to that instead of welding the pot. I designed the circuit for the control module and etched the circuit boards, i wanted it all to fit into a enclosure 171mm X 121 X 80 and also for the enclosure to cover the element terminals. I have finished the pot, assembled the circuit boards and tested that all parts of the circuit are working correctly. Now what is left to do is to write up the program for the control module and start brewing, I'm going to write up the manual function first so i can test the unit out and then ill work on the automatic function.
> 
> there will be more to come when i progress with it
> 
> cheers matho


What a great idea & it looks really professional, well done. I look forward to seeing your updates. I'm impressed that you welded a cheap Indian pot so well even though it leaked.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## gap

Hello Steve,
looks fantastic. 
Where do you find the time?
I am going to have to get my finger out with my HERMS build.

Regards

Graeme


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## Tim F

so awesome! How did you handle pumping the wort up through the malt pipe, does it just press down and seal on the bottom of the kettle like the real BM?


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## matho

real_beer said:


> What a great idea & it looks really professional, well done. I look forward to seeing your updates. I'm impressed that you welded a cheap Indian pot so well even though it leaked.
> 
> Cheers :icon_cheers:



Thanks, it wasn't fun welding the pot, i used my mig welder and on the lowest setting i still had to be really quick, welding the 2mm stainless ring was like a dream compared to that. 



gap said:


> Hello Steve,
> looks fantastic.
> Where do you find the time?
> I am going to have to get my finger out with my HERMS build.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Graeme



hey Graeme, I have a very understanding wife that lets me get out to the garage a fair bit so i can tinker



Tim F said:


> so awesome! How did you handle pumping the wort up through the malt pipe, does it just press down and seal on the bottom of the kettle like the real BM?


Tim if you look in the photo of the malt pipe you can see a bit of silicon hose around the hole i cut in the bottom, I have now replaced that with a bit of 3/8 silicon hose, when i screw down the the bar that hold the malt pipe in place it makes a nice seal

cheers matho


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## Andyd

Nice work! Looks great!


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## Tim F

gotcha. Did you do anything to join that silicon hose where the ends meet or didn't it need it?


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## enuun

wow! and I thought I was smart printing out and sticking my own label on my bottles heehee
nice work =)


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## Florian

Great work and a good size too. Wouldn't mind a little 9L one for test batches myself.

Is there a particular reason why you didn't cut out the whole bottom of the malt pipe?

If I'd have to write write up the program for the control module, I would allow for even more than the five mash steps the Braumeister has, wouldn't be a problem to allow for 10 or 15, would it?
I's also allow for the boil temp to go higher than 102, maybe 105 or so, just to allow a full on rolling boil if you ever want one. 

Will you also be integrating the pump breaks the original Braumeister has?


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## matho

Tim F said:


> gotcha. Did you do anything to join that silicon hose where the ends meet or didn't it need it?



i have done nothing to the ends i just made it a little larger than i need so the ends push themselves together it seems fine when i tried it before i drilled holes in the bottom of the big pot.



Florian said:


> Great work and a good size too. Wouldn't mind a little 9L one for test batches myself.
> 
> Is there a particular reason why you didn't cut out the whole bottom of the malt pipe?
> 
> If I'd have to write write up the program for the control module, I would allow for even more than the five mash steps the Braumeister has, wouldn't be a problem to allow for 10 or 15, would it?
> I's also allow for the boil temp to go higher than 102, maybe 105 or so, just to allow a full on rolling boil if you ever want one.
> 
> Will you also be integrating the pump breaks the original Braumeister has?



Florian,
there is no real reason why, the pot had a ridge in the bottom so i cut along that, it also holds the bottom filter which is good because i cant put a ridge in the pot like the BM malt pipe has.
I was only going with 5 steps but there is no reason why i can't do more, the only limitation is the size of the eeprom on the chip. 
thanks for the tip with the boil sounds like a good idea, i am going to do the pump rests and im also planning on doing a delay start of up to 12 hrs, so i can fill it up at night and it will be ready to go in the morning.
The element I bought is only 30w per square inch so it can be run in air without any damage just incase anything goes drastically wrong

cheers matho


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## joshuahardie

Looks really promising Matho.

I can't wait to bend your ear about it next time we are on a pubcrawl.


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## Fish13

> Pist'n'Broke Brewery



hmmm thatname seems very familiar. 


PF crew sign in?


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## seamad

G'day Matho,
I'm heading down a similiar path. Have got a crown urn with a recirc biab system and pid control.l
Had a difficult brew day saturday making a roggenbier, ended up doing a double deecoction as the element kept getting crud on it and the safety cutting in. Got sick of pulling the bag removing false bottom and cleaning with a mixing spoon with chux tied to it. Efficiency was good though as preboil gravity was higher than my expected OG so cut the boil time down to 60 min, even then safety cut in 4 timess. I know you can remove the safety but already burnt out one element and lost another brew to burnt taste.
Next step is to make a malt pipe so hopefully get clearer wort and lesss chance of burning.
My original bigw 19 pot fits inside the urn if handlescut off. I have not had a look at a braumaster yet, but could the wort enter at the top of the pipe? Does the braumaster have the pipe entering at the base to keep plumbing internal?
What diam holes should i drill in the bottom of my pot, and what material have you used for thee filter? Are the top and bottom screens the same?
Any advice much appreciated

Cheers
Sean


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## Bizier

Looking very tidy Matho. I am keen to see more updates.

Seamad: I am just going to recirculate by pumping liquor from the main kettle outlet via silicone hose on the outside of the vessel, returning to the top with some kind of sparge ring style diffuser.

Cheers to small batches!


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## matho

fish13 said:


> hmmm thatname seems very familiar.
> 
> 
> PF crew sign in?



sorry fish i wouldn't know what PF stands for, the name came about from years ago when my mate was wanting to start a record label we were kicking around some names and 'piston broke records' came up so when i came to name my first brewery that popped into my head.



seamad said:


> G'day Matho,
> I'm heading down a similiar path. Have got a crown urn with a recirc biab system and pid control.l
> Had a difficult brew day saturday making a roggenbier, ended up doing a double deecoction as the element kept getting crud on it and the safety cutting in. Got sick of pulling the bag removing false bottom and cleaning with a mixing spoon with chux tied to it. Efficiency was good though as preboil gravity was higher than my expected OG so cut the boil time down to 60 min, even then safety cut in 4 timess. I know you can remove the safety but already burnt out one element and lost another brew to burnt taste.
> Next step is to make a malt pipe so hopefully get clearer wort and lesss chance of burning.
> My original bigw 19 pot fits inside the urn if handlescut off. I have not had a look at a braumaster yet, but could the wort enter at the top of the pipe? Does the braumaster have the pipe entering at the base to keep plumbing internal?
> What diam holes should i drill in the bottom of my pot, and what material have you used for thee filter? Are the top and bottom screens the same?
> Any advice much appreciated
> 
> Cheers
> Sean



Sean,
its a bummer about the element cutting out sounds like a right PITA. I would think that the direction of flow would not matter much as long as the flow went through the grain, if your using a march pump you might need to put a valve on the outlet so you can throttle it back to stop it flowing over the top of the pot. This thread goes through some options. Im using 1/2 inch skin fittings that i got from here so i have a step drill that drills 8mm to 20mm in 2mm steps, so i drilled an 18mm hole and then expanded the hole just a little bit to make it fit. If your talking about drilling holes in the bottom of the pot to make a false bottom and your going to use the BIAB bag as a liner then i would say about 5 - 6 mm but be warned i found drilling the bottom of the pot to be harder than the walls and it will take a bit of patience to get the job done and also some of these i cant recommend these enough, my set has drilled a ton of holes in stainless steel and are still going strong
i am using two perforated ss discs cut from a catering tray and im going to us BIAB material over them to create the filter by this might change as i have come up with a different idea but ill see how the filter works first.

cheers matho


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## matho

Bizier said:


> Looking very tidy Matho. I am keen to see more updates.
> 
> Seamad: I am just going to recirculate by pumping liquor from the main kettle outlet via silicone hose on the outside of the vessel, returning to the top with some kind of sparge ring style diffuser.
> 
> Cheers to small batches!



thanks bizier, hopefully posting it here will make me pull my finger out i have been procrastinating for a while now


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## seamad

Not trying to steal your thread but got some pics of my evolving rig which may be helpful.






Flour sieve from chinese shop cut and reduced diam and riveted to fit urn. Hangs from rim with steel tracer and cut down fish hooks






Bit of bent copper pipe with holes to create some turbulence, attached to march pump, use valve to control flowrate.




PID control box




Ready to go sans bag.




What is the porosity of the filter material used on th braumaster ? I have a feeling that my bag material maybe to fine and clog up.

My next step is to attack my bigw pot ,filters top and bottom and feed wort return through the top, just want to make sure filter material is going to work...

cheers and thanks for the tips


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## Florian




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## matho

thanks florian very helpfull


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## seamad

Thanks florian. Are all 3 used ?


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## Wolfy

The one on the top-left of the photo is an Ikea STABIL Splatter screen.
I picked up 2 a week or so ago, but have yet to work out how/where to use them.


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## Florian

Sorry, I should've cleared that up:

The fine ss mesh is the ikea splash guard, which I haven't used yet.
The other ss false bottom is the original Braumeister one.
The fabric mesh is also from the Braumeister, and goes on top (at the bottom) and below (at the top) of the false bottom.

(that probably sounds confusing, so basically from top to bottom:
ss falsie
fabric mesh
grain
fabric mesh
ss falsie)

I know that some blokes in Germany succesfully ditched the* top* fabric mesh and used the ikea one instead (just drilled a hole in the middle to fit).

Honestly, if you had a false bottom with decent sized holes (read: smaller) you wouldn't need the fabric mesh in the first place. Therefore I think that the ikea style splash guard, as long as it is strong enough (supported), should be more than enough. The only problem I could think of is that it might be a tad too fine, which forces the pump to work very hard. So possibly a window fly screen or maybe the kmart splash guard might be better suited, depending on the pump.


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## seamad

cheers florian that makes sense.


Maybe I should just get my brother ( lives in Germany) to sneak one in his hand luggage next time he comes home :icon_cheers:


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## seamad

Florian, have you made a roggen or dunkel with your braumaster, and if so how did it go ?


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## Florian

I've made a beer with 10% Rye and 40% wheat, probably milled a bit too fine and not enough rice gulls and got a stuck mash, basically wort fountains shooting up through the malt pipe and against the lid. 
No probs with Schwarzbier, Munich Dunkel and the sorts if that's what you meant?


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## seamad

The 2 beers I had in mind and that gave me problems were both Tony's ( the bastard, why do such tasty brews cause so much grief ?)

Roggen was @ 60% rye, and from memory similar percentage of dark wheat with the dunkel. Haven't had probs with schwartz etc with my recirc biab...yet


I mill at .8mm. I increased gap to 1mm with ( Tony's again) wit but ended up with woeful effeciency so went back to .8 on Friday with the rye, which was also run through twice. Overshot OG by a big margain and ended up with something you could use as an oil substitute in the car. But ended up doing the double decoction ( of sorts ) with that brew because of crud buildup on element.

Have you noticed element burning with wheats etc on the braumaster or does most of the crud stay in the grain bed ?


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## Florian

No, most of it stays in the grain bed, there might be the odd stray grain here and there, but nothing to worry about. The elements have a build up after boil and whirlpool, but it's not burnt on and easily removable.


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## datamike

FYI: Here's a place in California that specializes in stainless mesh. Lots of different sizes and apparently, they can cut into custom discs. Minimum order is $75.

I haven't tried them yet, but though it might be useful for someone.

http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/products/TWPCAT_12

Michael


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## komodo

http://www.metalmesh.com.au/locations these guys have locations around australia and have a perforated sheet that is pretty much spot on match for what i can find out about the perforated metal used by a few of the false bottom makers. 
Never used them - I did think about it when I was going to make my own false bottom but that never happened. I bought a BeerBelly 50L SS Mashtun instead...


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## hosko11

Nice work Matho and Seamad. I'm in the midst of designing one as well using a 50l and 20l pot, but have got a little carried with tri-clover fittings and valves and currently have a projected cost of $1600 for the completed build  

Matho, I see you've got some perforated stainless installed in the malt pipe. Where abouts did you get hold of that? I've looked at places like what Komodo's linked to, but they only want to sell a full sheet.

Florian, any chance you could measure the thickness of the Braumeister stainless filter?

Cheers,
Hosko


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## matho

hey Ppp,

the perforated filter was cut out of a stainless steel tray that i got from a hospitality store, its not the best and im thinking ill probably replace it but ill try it out first.

RS components sells 500mm x 500mm 0.6mm perforated stainless steel sheets for a decent price but you have to by 2 

hope this helps

cheers matho


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## seamad

Having never seen a braumaster not sure exactly how the return works.How exactly does the wort nter the malt pipe, are there perforations in that central tube? Does the liquid level in the urn have to be under the level of the top of the malt pipe?
Does the grain form a bed or is it constantly disturbed ?

Might have to have a look at one when Ross gets them in.


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## matho

seamad said:


> Having never seen a braumaster not sure exactly how the return works.How exactly does the wort nter the malt pipe, are there perforations in that central tube? Does the liquid level in the urn have to be under the level of the top of the malt pipe?
> Does the grain form a bed or is it constantly disturbed ?
> 
> Might have to have a look at one when Ross gets them in.



I have never seen one in the flesh either, but what i have gleaned from the internet is the malt pipe is just that, a pipe, it has a seal on the bottom of the tube, then a bottom perforated disc then the filter material, the bottom filter is held off the bottom by a ridge put in the pipe about an inch up from the bottom, then the malt and then a top filter, perforated disc and then a bar to hold it all in place. The pump sucks the wort from outside the malt pipe and pumps it up into the malt pipe, with the seal on the bottom the wort has to go up to the top. I wouldn't think the level of wort would matter much as it would still flow.

edit: i just realized i never commented on setup seamad, it looks sweet. I really like the control box, you can move it from system to system if you wanted too  
cheers matho


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## MHB

The term Clone meaning an identical or indistinguishable copy, might be stretching the friendship a bit when applied to some of the builds here.
I know Braumeisters are expensive, but top quality always is and I can understand the desire to get some of the features of a Braumeister into your brewery at a lower price just wish you guys would quit calling them clones!

Some good vids on the Braumeister site that might give you a better idea of how a Braumeister works; might even inspire some of you to un-clench a bit and go for the real thing.

Mark


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## Tim F

Its a fair call, I'm all for paying for the best quality you can afford. Having said that I reckon you could make a automated brewery with indistinguishable functions and features as a BM even if it doesn't look the same, for well under $500.


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## manticle

Cos anyone who doesn't have $2000+ to spend on a readymade system or who enjoys tinkering and building must be a tightarse right?

Next time you're looking at dictionary definitions to wow us stupid people who don't understand English, maybe you could look up pompous, arrogant or jerk?


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## yardy

MHB said:


> The term "Clone" meaning an identical or indistinguishable copy, might be stretching the friendship a bit when applied to some of the builds here.
> I know Braumeisters are expensive, but top quality always is and I can understand the desire to get some of the features of a Braumeister into your brewery at a lower price just wish you guys would quit calling them clones!
> 
> Some good vids on the Braumeister site that might give you a better idea of how a Braumeister works; might even inspire some of you to un-clench a bit and go for the real thing.
> 
> Mark



Fair go manticle, the man is right.


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## manticle

Being right doesn't mean he isn't an arrogant prick.

Most people are smart enough to figure out the 'clone' in this thread isn't going to actually be a clone. Pissing on people's parade is what Mark loves doing best though.

Must be a slow day at the shop.

Apologies for the OT and I'll take my personal stoush with MHB away and keep it personal.


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## matho

i know its not going the look identical but i will be trying to get it to function the same.

i probably should of called it a semi automated single vessel brewery build

cheers matho


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## seamad

I've never claimed my build is a clone, just copying the method.
Fact is i could buy one but i do enjoy trying to figure things out for myself, and enjoy the build process.
I'm close to finishing building my 12.5m sailing cat which i plan circumnavigating with the kids for 8 years or so until they start highschool. By building my own version of a braumaster (and a boat) when things do break i will be able to fix them.
Cheers


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## Tony




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## Tim F

I agree with Tony...


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## petesbrew

I think we need to have an RDO brewday, Steve. I'll be keen to see this minibeast in action.


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## matho

petesbrew said:


> I think we need to have an RDO brewday, Steve. I'll be keen to see this minibeast in action.



excellent idea pete, would love to get together and brew


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## petesbrew

matho said:


> excellent idea pete, would love to get together and brew


Sorted. Will ring u next week dude.


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## Tim F

matho said:


> RS components sells 500mm x 500mm 0.6mm perforated stainless steel sheets for a decent price but you have to by 2



Cheers for that link, I'm ordering 2 sheets of the 2mm holes now - think it'll be the quickes way to finish my project.

I've been thinking though - you could recirc from the bottom through the grain bed without having a malt pipe that clamps down like the BM does. What if you just had a whole pot in your bigger pot, with an inlet at the bottom feeding into a manifold or something to spread out the wort. Then a filter disc on top of the pot. Excuse the quick scrawl...


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## Wolfy

Tim F said:


> I've been thinking though - you could recirc from the bottom through the grain bed without having a malt pipe that clamps down like the BM does. What if you just had a whole pot in your bigger pot, with an inlet at the bottom feeding into a manifold or something to spread out the wort. Then a filter disc on top of the pot. Excuse the quick scrawl...


Isn't that almost exactly what the BM does?
However you might well need something to keep the top filter-disk in place (to stop it from floating off, or compacting down), the BM bolts it in the middle, but some clips or other attachment at the edges of your inner-pot might work equally well.


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## hosko11

matho said:


> RS components sells 500mm x 500mm 0.6mm perforated stainless steel sheets for a decent price but you have to by 2


Thanks for that - will check it out.



Tim F said:


> I've been thinking though - you could recirc from the bottom through the grain bed without having a malt pipe that clamps down like the BM does. What if you just had a whole pot in your bigger pot, with an inlet at the bottom feeding into a manifold or something to spread out the wort. Then a filter disc on top of the pot. Excuse the quick scrawl...
> 
> View attachment 48345



Another option which I'm considering is threaded fittings. Threaded socket dead centre in the bottom of the kettle which will be the outlet from pump and the malt pipe (small pot) will have a half nipple dead centre in the bottom of it. The malt pipe would "screw" down to form the seal.

But I really like your idea of not having to modify the second pot...


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## seamad

I have thought of sometning similiar too, but why does the braumaster have the bottom filter, mmust be for reaason?


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## Tim F

Wolfy said:


> Isn't that almost exactly what the BM does?
> However you might well need something to keep the top filter-disk in place (to stop it from floating off, or compacting down), the BM bolts it in the middle, but some clips or other attachment at the edges of your inner-pot might work equally well.



Yeah I think this would work the same way, the only reason you'd consider not having the pot open on the bottom would be to make an easier build. Don't have to worry about the thread to screw down the pot, the seal on the bottom etc and its less material needed. Good point about the top filter, some system of clips would prob work like you say.



seamad said:


> I have thought of sometning similiar too, but why does the braumaster have the bottom filter, mmust be for reaason?


The advantage I can see to the open ended malt pipe in the BM is it looks easier to take it out after the mash. In that sketch above it would be a bastard to undo the coupling after mashing. But maybe you could get around that by having the wort return come up the outside of the pot with a silicon hose, over the top and back down to the bottom of the malt pot? At least that way you could lift it out more easily after mashing.

Ppp - love that idea too.


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## hosko11

Ppp said:


> But I really like your idea of not having to modify the second pot...


Probably should have had a coffee before writing this. Need a hole in the bottom of the malt pipe/pot to drain the wort out....



seamad said:


> I have thought of sometning similiar too, but why does the braumaster have the bottom filter, mmust be for reaason?


To hold the grain in and allow the mash to drain when you lift the malt pipe out

Here's a quick sketch of the kettle and plumbing that I'm thinking of. Have since decided on 50L pot rather than 70L and the whirlpool port will be a lot lower. The actual whirlpool nozzle will be 1/2"tubing pushed through and welded to a triclover cap (there's more to the configuration and connections, but that should give some idea on how it will work). All fittings are 3/4" triclover and the centre fitting (labelled "outlet") is a triclover 3/4" female adapter welded into the bottom of the pot. This is what the malt pipe/pot would screw down into. Silicon tubing will be attached to valve 3 which can then be connected to the whirlpool port for whirlpooling and then detached and used transferring the wort to a cube/fermenter.


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## Tim F

Ppp said:


> Probably should have had a coffee before writing this. Need a hole in the bottom of the malt pipe/pot to drain the wort out....
> 
> 
> To hold the grain in and allow the mash to drain when you lift the malt pipe out


lol great point. Although with a top filter supported properly you could just invert the pot at the end?


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## seamad

Forgot about drainage, having a blonde moment.
Might check out bunnings for some mozzie screen and see what they have got for a filter


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## MHB

Fair go guys the two posts before mine were by people who were interested in a build and had never seen a Braumeister in action. I posted the link to the vids to help.
The first part was written very tongue in cheek, FFS I know Braumeisters are expensive and if you look back over everything I have written on them you will see that I have freely acknowledge that and that there are alternatives. Braumeister is a high quality top end system, it suits me and lots of other brewers, but it wont be for everyone. Until you brew on a Braumeister you wont be aware of lots of the features and refinements that make up part of a well engineered brewing system, I wish anyone who is trying to build a Clone lots of luck. A couple of my locals have had a go, after brewing on mine and after coming and looking at a Braumeister real close the best of them are good recirculating systems but they arent Braumeisters! 
Still wish you wouldnt call the home build jobbies clones  . (just so you know that bit is called humour)
Mark


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## Bribie G

I'm thinking of *cloning *a Porsche - I'll look around and see if you can still get the kit ....






:lol: :lol: :lol:

Still a couple around.


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## keifer33

Maybe the wording should be

"A Braumeister inspired recirculating homemade brewing system"


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## Tim F

BIRHBS :lol:


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## schooey

Just think of the groupies it will attract when someone comes up with the 'Basic Open Operational Brewing System'


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## QldKev

schooey said:


> Just think of the groupies it will attract when someone comes up with the 'Basic Open Operational Brewing System'



hope I can get 2 of them


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## seamad

Amateur Heretical Braumaster


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## Clutch

Or






The average person will only know the person when they twist the wrist in anger.
I love it when people take alternate paths!


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## Tony

Clutch said:


> I love it when people take alternate paths!



And our old mate Fitty is one of the best at it


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## matho

Tony said:


> And our old mate Fitty is one of the best at it



cheers mate :icon_cheers:


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## wobbly

Matho

Further to the following post 



> If I'd have to write write up the program for the control module, I would allow for even more than the five mash steps the Braumeister has, wouldn't be a problem to allow for 10 or 15, would it?
> I's also allow for the boil temp to go higher than 102, maybe 105 or so, just to allow a full on rolling boil if you ever want one.



Having used my 20lt unit a few times now and something you might want to consider for your program is to build in a number (5, 10?) of programable alters/alarms during the boil cycle to alert you when to add your hop additions. Just saves having to set/use your mobile etc 

Also it may be an advantage to be able to pause the program and change step parameters (time/temperature) during say the mash schedule if you found that your hydrometer and or Iodiene tests showed that you had reached either your desired SG or that full conversion had been reached. 


Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## matho

wobbly said:


> Matho
> 
> Further to the following post
> 
> 
> 
> Having used my 20lt unit a few times now and something you might want to consider for your program is to build in a number (5, 10?) of programable alters/alarms during the boil cycle to alert you when to add your hop additions. Just saves having to set/use your mobile etc
> 
> Also it may be an advantage to be able to pause the program and change step parameters (time/temperature) during say the mash schedule if you found that your hydrometer and or Iodiene tests showed that you had reached either your desired SG or that full conversion had been reached.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly



thanks wobbly, i am putting that option in, i have already allocated the Eeprom space for 5 hop additions but i could add more if needed but i havent brewed a beer yet with more than 5.

the pausing part is an interesting idea, ill have to think about how ill implement it.

I would like to thank everyone that has contributed so far, with all these tips and suggestions im sure ill end up with an awesome unit. :icon_cheers: 

cheers

steve


----------



## Tanga

The control box and software (operating system?) is the most interesting part of this build for me. Get that right and I can see you (or someone) selling kits to other BIRHBS  folks, not to mention the RIMS and HERMS guys. Make the software open source and it'll be even better. =)


----------



## matho

Tanga said:


> The control box and software (operating system?) is the most interesting part of this build for me. Get that right and I can see you (or someone) selling kits to other BIRHBS  folks, not to mention the RIMS and HERMS guys. Make the software open source and it'll be even better. =)



i will be making the whole build available when i'm finished. unfortunately im a bit of a hack when it comes to programing, im using picbasic pro which isn't open source but ill try and write one up in GCbasic which is open source. 

cheers matho


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery

matho said:


> i will be making the whole build available when i'm finished. unfortunately im a bit of a hack when it comes to programing, im using picbasic pro which isn't open source but ill try and write one up in GCbasic which is open source.
> 
> cheers matho



"Braumeister build for Idiots " - brilliant Matho .... I'll have a crack at that. Stop reading this crap and get building.
Cheers
BBB


----------



## Tanga

matho said:


> i will be making the whole build available when i'm finished. unfortunately im a bit of a hack when it comes to programing, im using picbasic pro which isn't open source but ill try and write one up in GCbasic which is open source.
> 
> cheers matho



Wow, that's awesome. I bet the controller kit'd still sell though. Programming those chippy things, though I.instructions sounds good. =)


----------



## Zizzle

matho said:


> thanks wobbly, i am putting that option in, i have already allocated the Eeprom space for 5 hop additions but i could add more if needed but i havent brewed a beer yet with more than 5.
> 
> the pausing part is an interesting idea, ill have to think about how ill implement it.



Go whole hog and add a hop dropper! 






Tanga said:


> The control box and software (operating system?) is the most interesting part of this build for me. Get that right and I can see you (or someone) selling kits to other BIRHBS  folks, not to mention the RIMS and HERMS guys. Make the software open source and it'll be even better. =)



There is already the brewtroller project.

But really, usually everyone's build is sufficiently different that generic control software is not practical.

Getting and programming an Arduino is pretty trivial these days, and would have to be the platform of choice for any DIY-for-newcomers system.


----------



## Tanga

Yeah, that's what I mean, the software isn't such a problem, but getting boards printed, etc, is. If people could get a kit (similar to a Jaycar kit) where they solder in the bits, and add their own chip (or a chip that comes with the kit) then it'd be so much simpler to set this up. Will check out the brewtroller project when the time is right though. I have a 20L urn which would be perfect for this some time down the track when I'm more cashed up.


----------



## Tim F

Tanga check out arduino, that's pretty much what it is from what i've seen so far - prebuilt boards that you can customise and program


----------



## matho

hey Tanga,

as tim said Arduino are prebuit boards that bring all the pins out to headers, the board has everything on it to get the AVR chip up and running so you don't need to worry about that ( personally i think its cheating ), the AVR chip is also loaded with a small bit of code called a bootloader, which means you don't need any special harware to program it, all you have to do is download the free arduino software and connect the board to your usb port. You still need to build some circuitry to interface the board with the outside world but the core is done for you.
The arduino language is based on c which seems fairly easy to learn (im learning at the moment), the arduino software is an IDE (intergrated development enviroment) which means you can write the code, complie it and program it all in one program. check out Bonj's thread for more info Here

Now that i have spent the time talking about arduino I'm not using it for this build, Im using a PIC and custom made printed circuit boards and programmed with a homemade programmer

cheers matho


----------



## matho

just a quick update, i had the day off yesterday so i spent time working on the controller. I have got most of it sorted, all i have to do is get the auto funtion working and sort out some of the display values for the menu.
talking about the menus the program size before i added the setup menu was 4k and after i added the menu it went up to 14K, lucky i have a 32K chip.
I have a bit of time coming up over the long weekend so hopefully, with i bit of luck ill get it finished soon.

cheers matho


----------



## matho

I have finished the program its a little bit over 19k. I have given it a run on the bench (not connected to the pot yet) and I'm happy with how it's working.

features programmed so far are

Temperature display and adjustment with a 0.5 deg resolution 
The PID uses the full 12bits from the DS18B20 which gives a resolution of 0.0625 deg

Manual mode:

Manual control of the pump, heating element and the temperature

Auto mode:

Delay start from 0 the 12hrs

Mash in stage plus 5 more step stages (I will be able to add more stages later if i want to)

Boil stage with temperature adjustable between 94 and 120 deg whilst the boil is going

5 audible hop addition reminders

Setup:

PID parameter adjustment so i can setup the PID to work correctly

Auto parameter adjustment mash in temp, the 5 stages temps and times, the hop addition times and the boil length 

I have had a cable issue between the board and the LCD so i have to wait until the long weekend is over until i can get some parts to fix it so hopefully by mid week ill have it all together and then maybe a test brew next weekend.

cheers matho


----------



## matho

some pics

start up screen





manual mode




auto




cheers matho


----------



## Malted

matho said:


> 5 audible hop addition reminders



To Braumeister and beyond!
You probably have it set this way but just in case you don't. My 2c is that the alarm should keep sounding until you hit an alarm off or continue command. If it just alarms for 10 seconds or so and you're away from the brewery you might miss it.


----------



## matho

thanks malted

i had it going for the whole minute but it drove me crazy, at the moment it just beeps but i can change it to keep going until i acknowledge it.
that is the beauty of doing it yourself you can change it when you want.

cheers matho


----------



## kelbygreen

lol Id set a alram 2 mins before or what ever for 10-20 secs then a beep when it has to be added. 

Looking good matho. when you coming to build mine??? haha


----------



## matho

kelbygreen said:


> Looking good matho. when you coming to build mine??? haha



mate more than happy to help :icon_cheers:


----------



## Tim F

:super:


----------



## matho

So i have noticed the the start up screen had a typo and i thought that ill change it, at the moment I'm thinkig of 

Mini BrewMaster

but i thought i might put it out there and see if anyone can come up with something else, it has to be 16 characters long or less including spaces.

cheers matho


----------



## raven19

Matho's "Malt-a-morphosis".


----------



## OzMemphis

Malt Master


----------



## manticle

ptit frere or pistonbroke if you don't already have that name anywhere other than your signature.


----------



## matho

like the hyphenated word thing and a reference to malt is cool

maybe something like The Malt-O-Matic or The Wort-O-Matic

and i also like little brother as it is small and kinda like a braumeister B)

Also I wasn't going to do it but I thought why the hell not so I made up the front label for the control unit





I used Avery identification labels durable heavy duty (code 936067) which is a plastic printable sticker, I then put a few coats of clear acrylic paint over the top

cheers matho


----------



## manticle

Little brother/little bro is also 'little brew' if you talk to someone from New Zealand.

The whole concept (of the machine, not the name) is exactly what excites me about the DIY spirit of many homebrewers. Good effort.


----------



## geoff_tewierik

How about Little Brau.

A nod and a wink to the Braumeister that inspired it.


----------



## gap

Hello Steve,

Would love to come down and see it in action when it is ready.

Great work.

Regards

Graeme


----------



## matho

gap said:


> Hello Steve,
> 
> Would love to come down and see it in action when it is ready.
> 
> Great work.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Graeme



yep no worries Graeme you are always welcome mate


----------



## Tony

Braumiser

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miser

It just works! and its only removing 2 letters from the origional.

Edit: sounds better than Brauscrooge


----------



## kelbygreen

haha classic, perfect name!


----------



## matho

Tony said:


> Braumiser
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miser
> 
> It just works! and its only removing 2 letters from the origional.
> 
> Edit: sounds better than Brauscrooge



lmao

awesome


----------



## Tony

brautightwad???


----------



## bullsneck

Frugalbrauer


----------



## real_beer

matho said:


> So i have noticed the the start up screen had a typo and i thought that ill change it, at the moment I'm thinking of
> 
> Mini BrewMaster
> 
> but i thought i might put it out there and see if anyone can come up with something else, it has to be 16 characters long or less including spaces.
> 
> cheers matho


Mini BrewMaster or BrewMaster Mini sound good.
You said earlier in the discussion you wanted to copy the method not clone the Braumeister so why not stamp your own personality on it.

MathoBrew-Nine
MathoBrew-9
BrewMatho-Nine
BrewMatho-9


----------



## matho

Im kinda leaning towards The brew-o-matic i like the idea of using the 9l size too, I have been playing around with some labels





here is one

cheers matho


----------



## Fodder

No offence, but sounds like something Wallace and Gromit would come up with...


----------



## matho

no offense taken, it does sound like that, maybe thats why i like it :lol: 

cheers matho


----------



## Fodder

Its my latest invention. I call it, the 'Brew-o-matic 9000'. Now, Gromit, pass the cheese will you, thats a good boy.


----------



## real_beer

matho said:


> no offense taken, it does sound like that, maybe thats why i like it :lol:
> 
> cheers matho


So do we!


And we are offended!


----------



## matho

brew-o-matic 9000 i lke it




or braumiser


----------



## manticle

Braumiser gets my vote. Elegant use of the words, good pisstake and sums up the intent and nature.


----------



## Tanga

manticle said:


> Braumiser gets my vote. Elegant use of the words, good pisstake and sums up the intent and nature.



+1


----------



## matho

Yep it is a cool name so braumiser it is




cheers matho


----------



## Tim F

Nice one. For my next project maybe I'll make a Braumiser clone h34r:


----------



## manticle

I'm going to make a brau miserable.


----------



## matho

Tim F said:


> Nice one. For my next project maybe I'll make a Braumiser clone h34r:



tim in all seriousness i want people to clone it I would be very happy if someone builds another one

as i said before ill post all the info of the build when it is fully tested, ill be trying too do a step by step

:icon_cheers:


----------



## Tanga

matho said:


> tim in all seriousness i want people to clone it I would be very happy if someone builds another one
> 
> as i said before ill post all the info of the build when it is fully tested, ill be trying too do a step by step
> 
> :icon_cheers:



I'm going to hold you to that. Very impressive work.

Edit: How much for the electronics?


----------



## matho

Tanga said:


> Edit: How much for the electronics?



Tanga, about $120 but the two most expensive parts were the box at $30 and the transformer which was also $30.
The transformer had to be fairly big because im also running the pump with it, but if i was to do it again i would buy a 5A 12v switchmode power supply of ebay for alot cheaper.
I havent found a cheaper supply of polycarbonate boxes unless i want to buy bulk off the supplier, but if you aren't going to mount it under the pot like i have then any enclosure would do, i went with polycarbonate because its rated to 120 deg c

cheers matho


----------



## matho

DONE
Its all put together and ready for testing













cheers matho


----------



## browndog

Matho, you are a whip mate, that is one of the most inspiring and best home engineered jobs I've ever seen here.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## Blackapple

Whens the first brew?


----------



## matho

thanks browndog thats a massive complement 

Blackapple, i'm working tomorrow but i should be able to electrically test it to make sure its safe and then on sunday is bathurst so im planning on drinking alot so i dont really know when the first brew will happen but hopefully soon

cheers steve


----------



## kelbygreen

lol common steve drinking heaps of beer and being distracted by the tv is the day you HAVE! to brew  cant expect any less


----------



## Zizzle

matho said:


> Tanga, about $120 but the two most expensive parts were the box at $30 and the transformer which was also $30.
> The transformer had to be fairly big because im also running the pump with it, but if i was to do it again i would buy a 5A 12v switchmode power supply of ebay for alot cheaper.



Ouch. For the brewbot I got a 12v 6A "LCD monitor" power supply off ebay, under $10 delivered. Very small and seems to live up to it's rating. It's even survived a few accidental short circuits.

Great build anyway.


----------



## Tanga

Not as pricey as I feared, and beautiful. When my 20L urn grows up it wants to be a Braumiser. Thanks for the chance to see her inception. Awesome. Save first brewday until a quiet one (so you can take lots of pics). :icon_drool2:


----------



## Truman42

Stupid question time, Ive noticed with the vids on the Braumeister the wort gets pumped out under the grain bed and rises up through the grain and over the side.
With this Braumiser does the wort get pumped up through the malt pipe and out the top of the malt pipe and flows down through the grain bed back to the pump?

So it doesnt matter which way it goes?


----------



## yardy

matho said:


> DONE
> Its all put together and ready for testing
> 
> 
> cheers matho




nice build mate :icon_cheers:


----------



## ~MikE

matho said:


> DONE
> Its all put together and ready for testing


definitely one of the coolest things I've seen on here. nice work!


----------



## matho

so electrically its all safe meggered at 20m ohms and all exposed metal parts are earthed correctly



kelbygreen said:


> lol common steve drinking heaps of beer and being distracted by the tv is the day you HAVE! to brew  cant expect any less


its funny kelby i built a semi automated brewery but ill have to watch it like a hawk when im trialling it out 



Zizzle said:


> Ouch. For the brewbot I got a 12v 6A "LCD monitor" power supply off ebay, under $10 delivered. Very small and seems to live up to it's rating. It's even survived a few accidental short circuits.
> 
> Great build anyway.



yeah Zizzle i had a bit of a brain fart when i was searching for the power supply and forgot to check ebay. Thanks Zizzle your builds are always brilliant.



Tanga said:


> Not as pricey as I feared, and beautiful. When my 20L urn grows up it wants to be a Braumiser. Thanks for the chance to see her inception. Awesome. Save first brewday until a quiet one (so you can take lots of pics). :icon_drool2:



i will be taking lots of pics



Truman said:


> Stupid question time, Ive noticed with the vids on the Braumeister the wort gets pumped out under the grain bed and rises up through the grain and over the side.
> With this Braumiser does the wort get pumped up through the malt pipe and out the top of the malt pipe and flows down through the grain bed back to the pump?
> 
> So it doesnt matter which way it goes?


it goes the same way as the braumeister, the pump sucks from the outside of the malt pipe and pumps up through the middle



yardy said:


> nice build mate :icon_cheers:






~MikE said:


> definitely one of the coolest things I've seen on here. nice work!


thanks yardy and MikE


----------



## matho

I branded it


----------



## bradsbrew

Matho that is absolutely brilliant mate. Thats the best build I have seen be completed on this forum, seriously. Will be picking your brains on that one for sure.

Cheers Brasd


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

Nice job matho. May i ask how much in total it cost to build? and when do you plan to err....... "pop her cherry"  

_wallace_


----------



## matho

bradsbrew said:


> Matho that is absolutely brilliant mate. Thats the best build I have seen be completed on this forum, seriously. Will be picking your brains on that one for sure.
> 
> Cheers Brasd


Thanks mate pick away 



_WALLACE_ said:


> Nice job matho. May i ask how much in total it cost to build? and when do you plan to err....... "pop her cherry"
> 
> _wallace_



Thanks wallace it has cost me just under $500 but i reckon i could do it again for about $350, the element alone cost $175 but i think you can get the concealed crown urn element for $60 which could be made to work quite nicely

edit: I'm hoping to brew on it by the end of the week
cheers matho


----------



## mccuaigm

matho said:


> I branded it
> 
> View attachment 48976




That looks fuckin fantastic Matho, you bloody legend. The orders will be coming thick & fast mate :chug:


----------



## kirem

Good work mate.


----------



## matho

goldy said:


> That looks fuckin fantastic Matho, you bloody legend. The orders will be coming thick & fast mate :chug:


yeah with the sticker it looks like i could almost sell it 



kirem said:


> Good work mate.


thanks mate


----------



## Tanga

I don't see why a 20L electric urn wouldn't work. That's my sinister plan. I already have the outer pot, electrical element and base sorted. =)

I'm keeping an eye out for cheap inner pots and broken coffee makers.

What size is the max / min for the malt pipe Matho?


----------



## matho

Tanga said:


> I don't see why a 20L electric urn wouldn't work. That's my sinister plan. I already have the outer pot, electrical element and base sorted. =)
> 
> I'm keeping an eye out for cheap inner pots and broken coffee makers.
> 
> What size is the max / min for the malt pipe Matho?



a 20l urn would certainly work tanga 

about the malt pipe i went off the value of 1 kg of grain = 0.65 l and just over 2l per kg of water in the malt pipe, with those numbers and an 8l malt pipe i should be able to do 11l at 1.060 

cheers matho


----------



## Robbo2234

Well done mate!!!

get a vid on youtube when your brewing!

now to do this to my keggle,,,,,


----------



## Tanga

matho said:


> a 20l urn would certainly work tanga
> 
> about the malt pipe i went off the value of 1 kg of grain = 0.65 l and just over 2l per kg of water in the malt pipe, with those numbers and an 8l malt pipe i should be able to do 11l at 1.060
> 
> cheers matho



Thanks. Looks like I might be part way there.

I have a cheap Kmart 7.6 L stainless pot which I can take the plastic handles off (leaving it all stainless) which I think could do for the malt pipe. I was thinking some of the aluminium flywire mesh in the bottom? Or are the holes too big? I have a round silicon cake 'tin' that fits nearly perfectly as a giant washer in the bottom. Some more closeups of the malt pipe would be great.


----------



## matho

Tanga said:


> Thanks. Looks like I might be part way there.
> 
> I have a cheap Kmart 7.6 L stainless pot which I can take the plastic handles off (leaving it all stainless) which I think could do for the malt pipe. I was thinking some of the aluminium flywire mesh in the bottom? Or are the holes too big? I have a round silicon cake 'tin' that fits nearly perfectly as a giant washer in the bottom. Some more closeups of the malt pipe would be great.



sounds good when i can ill post some pics


----------



## white.grant

Very impressive Matho. Would love to see a video of a brew.

cheers

Grant


----------



## Tony

matho said:


> Yep it is a cool name so braumiser it is
> 
> View attachment 48900
> 
> 
> cheers matho






matho said:


> I branded it
> 
> View attachment 48976



A fine choice 

One question mate...... why didnt you make it bigger?


----------



## matho

i didn't want to make it too obvious mate  

i will be post vids when i can 

cheers steve


----------



## matho

tanga,

here are some pictures of the inner pot














cheers matho


----------



## going down a hill

matho said:


> tanga,
> 
> here are some pictures of the inner pot
> 
> View attachment 49094
> 
> 
> View attachment 49095
> 
> 
> View attachment 49096
> 
> 
> View attachment 49097
> 
> 
> cheers matho


Brilliant work.


----------



## matho

doing a trial run today all is going well im at the boil now but i will need to do a few things like make a new top filter plate as this one is too thin






but it still produced clear wort




i am really happy how the rest of it performed ill fix the filter plate and then do another brew soon

cheers matho


----------



## Tim F

sweet as. You could prob just reinforce that top filter with some steel rod?


----------



## stux

I see my BIAB pots growing up into a BrauMiser one day...


----------



## Tanga

Okay, so you draw the liquor up through the mash pipe? How? The top has holes in it, so presumably no suction? What is the silicon tubing around the hole in the bottom from? Or is that the top when working?


----------



## matho

with a pump 




the pump sucks the liquid from outside the malt pipe and up thru the middle

Tim i was thinking of doing that but i have a fair bit of 1.2mm stainless steel sheet under the house so i was thinking of making another one

cheers matho


----------



## Tim F

Fair enough, so that pump went well? I'm thinking about getting one.


----------



## kjparker

any video's of this beast in action?


----------



## RdeVjun

Very impressive, quite neat too- well done. :super: Ironing out these last few kinks should be easy.
One question about the pump, can it drain completely when you're finished? If not, perhaps it requires a sump plug sort of thing, even with a ball valve if you're looking to go a bit fancy, alternatively just upending it may be adequate?
Keep up the great work! :icon_cheers:


----------



## kymba

brilliant!

in my head i'm imagining oopmah loompahs operating your braumiser, no, make that 100's of them, in that same garden where your pic is taken. dancing around and singing songs, making sure everything is ok. the only thing is, what do they do with their now redundant mash paddles?


----------



## Tony

Fitty.......... you have me thinking, and that dangerous.

I have been reading a lot about the propper german units and i really like the idea of them....... and they look like very sterdy units. Buy you and I, as you know, are very alike.

For me its not about saving the cash........ while its an incentive ..... its about building something yourself.

I like the idea of making my own cause i can make it how i want it, and to operate how i want. Im a bit tired of the old Bulls Head 3V rig and i have been toying with ideas on an upgrade for a while............ your effort has sold me!

Here are the beginings i have on hand to use........ 100L SS pot, March 815 (or one of those 12v ones you have, they look the goods) Allen bradley Micrologix 1000 PLC (might look for a Micrologix 1100 as they have ethernet to connect to a HMI later on) and/or a Eurotherm 2208e PID controller (good bit of kit!) and a SS enclosure for it. Thinking of putting it on a stand made from SS on casters for mobility






Thinking of looking at a SSR to run the element and maybe one of these:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...f47a5441c1c1660


----------



## matho

Tony,

that looks awesome can't wait to see what you come up with.
If you need any stainless steel sheet i have alot of 1.2mm sheet, its from an old sink that was used for a photo lab, it was a big sink it measured about 2m by 1m and was about 30cm deep.
My wife and i are looking at going to the hunter for our wedding anniversary so i could drop some off then.

here is a photo of the top filter plate made out of some of that stainless steel, i made to fix the problem i had




even with the teething problems the brewing was really easy compared to my 3v system, I don't think you will regret making one

cheers steve


----------



## Tony

no........... when i think about the process....... it will be different but far simplified and faster..... easier to clean........ it makes sense!

i think the one main thing i will have to consider is the grain tube size............ it will have to hold the grain, and mash liquor with enough liquid in the rest of the vessel to cover the heating element.

Im thinking for an added touch i will get a nice big SS mixing bowl and mount it to the lid with a SS chimney fitted....... and im not paying almost $500 for that 

Edit: Oh...... and im right for SS perf plate mate .... :icon_cheers:

Also thinking some fine SS mesh as the filter as aposed to the cloth????? link below....... they do down to 75 micron in 304 or 316 and i believe its not too pricey!

http://www.metalmesh.com.au/stainless-steel-mesh


----------



## hosko11

Matho,
I can't believe how quickly you've turned this thing around - hats off :icon_cheers: 

I'm really intrigue to learn more about the controller build side of things. I've just ordered most of the materials to build mine, but am still trying to figure out the controller side of things. At the moment I'm considering Brewtroller, but now want to investigate the DIY approach after seeing whats possible!

I might have to pick your brain in the next few months on this stuff - along with quite a few others I'd reckon. Congrats.

Cheers,
Hosko


----------



## Aleosaurus cervisiae

Matho, Tony, all I can say is WOW!!
I hope blueprints will be available after the final versions are done, tested and any possible problems solved?


----------



## hosko11

Tony said:


> i think the one main thing i will have to consider is the grain tube size............ it will have to hold the grain, and mash liquor with enough liquid in the rest of the vessel to cover the heating element.


This is the part I've struggle with as well as I want to use standard SS pots, which means I'm limited to certain dimensions and volumes. Once you start to consider mash thickness (4.6-5.75 L/kg for 20L Braumeister), whether you want to do any sparging, potential system boil off rates, keeping the element covered etc it is complicated to determine the most appropriate sized malt pipe.

I'm thinking of going with a larger than needed pot for the malt pipe to increase surface area of the malt pipe and then drilling an overflow hole in the side of the pot where the wort can flow out of rather than having to flow over the pot rim - the top filter would obviously sit below the hole. The hole can then be sealed (yet to figure out how) if I want to brew a high gravity beer as the extra grain and mash liquor would be enough to fill the entire malt pipe and keep the element covered.

Cheers,
Hosko


----------



## bradsbrew

I started with my experimenting with this last night. It involves a 30L birko urn controlled with a stc100 and a 19L bigW pot. I have drilled a hole in the centre of the bottom of the pot and attatched a 9" false bottom which under lets. The urn is filled to 25L and brought up to 71 deg I then drained 10L into smaller pot and sat it into the urn. The mash was then recirced for 60 min, the water in the urn was brought to mash out temp then the mash was drained off. The rest of the water in the urn was then sparged through the mash vessel. 
I found quite a few problems along the way but all will be easily fixed through better design.

Considering the only cost was the $20 pot from bigW it was too bad , 20L of 1044 aussie bitter ale. With a few changes I should be able to get the results and if it works then upsize.

Once I have it sitting better I'll post up the pics. No where near as good as Matho's but it works.

Cheers


----------



## Tony

Ppp said:


> This is the part I've struggle with as well as I want to use standard SS pots, which means I'm limited to certain dimensions and volumes. Once you start to consider mash thickness (4.6-5.75 L/kg for 20L Braumeister), whether you want to do any sparging, potential system boil off rates, keeping the element covered etc it is complicated to determine the most appropriate sized malt pipe.
> 
> I'm thinking of going with a larger than needed pot for the malt pipe to increase surface area of the malt pipe and then drilling an overflow hole in the side of the pot where the wort can flow out of rather than having to flow over the pot rim - the top filter would obviously sit below the hole. The hole can then be sealed (yet to figure out how) if I want to brew a high gravity beer as the extra grain and mash liquor would be enough to fill the entire malt pipe and keep the element covered.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hosko



Hold that thought........... im off to bed now but i have done some research and have done some thinking tonight...... and its easy to work out.

Tomorrow


----------



## Tony

Ok..... up and mash is in 

This is only my idea on the subject and Matho can probably let us know what he did..... but........

First i have worked out hoy deep i want the minimum liquid level to be in the main pot, to ensure the element is well covered at all times no matter what. I have worked out about 200mm of liquid will be safe.

In my pot that is 36.2 liters calculated here as a cylinder:

http://www.calculatoredge.com/enggcalc/volume.html

now given that my mash volume will be about 55 liters if i add 50 liters of water and 10kg of malt......... that leaves me 18.8 liters in the malt tube above this 200mm height.

So if the tube will be a total of 400mm high and 350mm diameter (pot total diameter is 480mm) I get 19.2 liters for the 200mm of malt pipe sticking out of the 200mm of liquid in the bottom and thats close enough for me.

just think of it as 2 seperate cylinders to calc the volume off.
1st: your base line minimum depth in the whole pot
2nd: the malt tube volune sitting above this.

I have worked this out figuring about 0.5L volume per kg of malt and will have to add some water at the end for boil off but thats fine. I think mine will end up about the same size as a 50L Braumeister.

If anyone can see a hole in this line of thought please say....... i assume these things run up around the 5L/kg mark? I wonder how that will effect efficiency?


----------



## hosko11

The mash thickness interpreted from the Braumeister manuals is:
4.6-5.75 L/kg - 20L Braumeister manual suggests 23L for 4-5kgs of grain 
4.82-5.89 L/kg - 50L Braumeister manual suggests 53L for 9-11kgs of grain 
So your 5L/kg is right in the ball park.

Your logic and calc's look fine. What are you using for the malt pipe?

I've actually calc'd what my system volumes are for various strength beers and will post shortly, but one variation of my system is that the malt pipe pot is actually raised off the floor of the kettle as I'm going to weld/solder a 4" clamp ferrule into the bottom of the malt pipe that I can push down on to the bottom of the pot in an attempt to ensure I get a good seal. I'll probably have a SS plate on the outside bottom of the pot to reinforce the base and ensure This might not make sense but I'll attempt to explain in more detail if your interested.
Cheers,
Hosko


----------



## matho

Ppp said:


> Matho,
> I can't believe how quickly you've turned this thing around - hats off :icon_cheers:
> 
> I'm really intrigue to learn more about the controller build side of things. I've just ordered most of the materials to build mine, but am still trying to figure out the controller side of things. At the moment I'm considering Brewtroller, but now want to investigate the DIY approach after seeing whats possible!
> 
> I might have to pick your brain in the next few months on this stuff - along with quite a few others I'd reckon. Congrats.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hosko



the brewtroller would definitely work but if you have some electronics skills then making your own is fairly simple, my HLT controller for my other system was made on proto board 




Aleosaurus cervisae said:


> Matho, Tony, all I can say is WOW!!
> I hope blueprints will be available after the final versions are done, tested and any possible problems solved?



i will be posting all the info when it is sorted



Ppp said:


> This is the part I've struggle with as well as I want to use standard SS pots, which means I'm limited to certain dimensions and volumes. Once you start to consider mash thickness (4.6-5.75 L/kg for 20L Braumeister), whether you want to do any sparging, potential system boil off rates, keeping the element covered etc it is complicated to determine the most appropriate sized malt pipe.
> 
> I'm thinking of going with a larger than needed pot for the malt pipe to increase surface area of the malt pipe and then drilling an overflow hole in the side of the pot where the wort can flow out of rather than having to flow over the pot rim - the top filter would obviously sit below the hole. The hole can then be sealed (yet to figure out how) if I want to brew a high gravity beer as the extra grain and mash liquor would be enough to fill the entire malt pipe and keep the element covered.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hosko



hosko,

you have to decide how big a beer you want to make and how much of it you want, i went with 11l of 1.060 which works out like this

37ppg x 2.2 x 3.78 = 308 
308 x 0.75 = 231 points/kilo/liter at 75% efficiency
11 x 60 = 660
660/231 = 2.85 kg of grain

1 kg of grain displaces 0.65l of water 
i use a 8l pot but with the filters in place its volume is 7.5l 
2.85 x 0.65 = 1.85 l 
(7.5 - 1.85)/ 2.85 = 1.98 l / kg inside the malt pipe 
which is a bit on the low side but in my test the other day i had about 2.4l per kg and it flowed well but i got an extract efficiency of 80% with a crappy sparge so the 75% could be increased
I was in the same boat as you wanting to use ready made pots so i went with the 8l pot because it fitted the best with the element on the outside. Soon ill be doing more tests and if i need to go bigger ill have to make up a malt pipe



bradsbrew said:


> I started with my experimenting with this last night. It involves a 30L birko urn controlled with a stc100 and a 19L bigW pot. I have drilled a hole in the centre of the bottom of the pot and attatched a 9" false bottom which under lets. The urn is filled to 25L and brought up to 71 deg I then drained 10L into smaller pot and sat it into the urn. The mash was then recirced for 60 min, the water in the urn was brought to mash out temp then the mash was drained off. The rest of the water in the urn was then sparged through the mash vessel.
> I found quite a few problems along the way but all will be easily fixed through better design.
> 
> Considering the only cost was the $20 pot from bigW it was too bad , 20L of 1044 aussie bitter ale. With a few changes I should be able to get the results and if it works then upsize.
> 
> Once I have it sitting better I'll post up the pics. No where near as good as Matho's but it works.
> 
> Cheers


brad, i cant wait to see it 

cheers matho


----------



## hosko11

Ppp said:


> The mash thickness interpreted from the Braumeister manuals is:
> 4.6-5.75 L/kg - 20L Braumeister manual suggests 23L for 4-5kgs of grain
> 4.82-5.89 L/kg - 50L Braumeister manual suggests 53L for 9-11kgs of grain
> So your 5L/kg is right in the ball park.



Sorry, mash thickness is probably not really the right term for the above. The mash thickness is probably defined by the volume of grain liquid between the 2 filters. For the 20L Braumeister this is about 17L.


----------



## Tony

Ppp said:


> The mash thickness interpreted from the Braumeister manuals is:
> 4.6-5.75 L/kg - 20L Braumeister manual suggests 23L for 4-5kgs of grain
> 4.82-5.89 L/kg - 50L Braumeister manual suggests 53L for 9-11kgs of grain
> So your 5L/kg is right in the ball park.
> 
> Your logic and calc's look fine. What are you using for the malt pipe?
> 
> I've actually calc'd what my system volumes are for various strength beers and will post shortly, but one variation of my system is that the malt pipe pot is actually raised off the floor of the kettle as I'm going to weld/solder a 4" clamp ferrule into the bottom of the malt pipe that I can push down on to the bottom of the pot in an attempt to ensure I get a good seal. I'll probably have a SS plate on the outside bottom of the pot to reinforce the base and ensure This might not make sense but I'll attempt to explain in more detail if your interested.
> Cheers,
> Hosko



I know what your saying with the malt tube....... im planning on having one or 2 made out of rolled SS sheet with a plate lip on the base on the inside like Matho's cut out pot and may use something like a fermenter lid seal as a big o-ring. It will be about the sizeo f a tooheys keg.... a bit smaller at about 40 liters.

I think i will start a new thread for my build and discussions though...... i dont want to hijack Matho's thread.


----------



## matho

tony,
those figures look about right the mash thickness inside the malt tube ( which is essentially your mash tun) would be say

height of malt pipe - filter placement 
40cm - (2cm + 2cm) = 36cm 

volume = ((17.5^2 * pi)/1000)x 36 = 34.6 l 

the grain would displace 6.5 l (0.65 x 10kg)

that would leave 28.1 l so the mash thickness would be 2.8 l/kg 

on my system i mash in at 11l of water plus 2.5 kg of grain which gives me a total height 17cm and my malt pipe is 19.5 cm so when i turn the pump on the level will drop by the volume of the 2.5cm in the malt pipe which would be 1l that would drop the level on the outside by 3 cm. the height of the element is 10 cm so i am safely above the element by 4 cm

my outside pot is 31cm and my inside pot is 23 cm 

cheers steve

edit: tony your more than welcome to hijack this thread


----------



## riverside

Tony said:


> Fitty.......... you have me thinking, and that dangerous.
> 
> I have been reading a lot about the propper german units and i really like the idea of them....... and they look like very sterdy units. Buy you and I, as you know, are very alike.
> 
> For me its not about saving the cash........ while its an incentive  ..... its about building something yourself.
> 
> I like the idea of making my own cause i can make it how i want it, and to operate how i want. Im a bit tired of the old Bulls Head 3V rig and i have been toying with ideas on an upgrade for a while............ your effort has sold me!
> 
> Here are the beginings i have on hand to use........ 100L SS pot, March 815 (or one of those 12v ones you have, they look the goods) Allen bradley Micrologix 1000 PLC (might look for a Micrologix 1100 as they have ethernet to connect to a HMI later on) and/or a Eurotherm 2208e PID controller (good bit of kit!) and a SS enclosure for it. Thinking of putting it on a stand made from SS on casters for mobility
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thinking of looking at a SSR to run the element and maybe one of these:
> 
> http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...f47a5441c1c1660


Tony , i am also in the process of building one of these , same 100ltr pot.... What is the max ltrs of wort do you think could be made in a 100ltr pot ? Also what type/size heating element are you thinking of using ?

Cheers
Riverside


----------



## Tony

mmmmm didnt think about filter displacement........ i might up the height to 44 cm to get the mash up around the 3L/kg mark. I have 50cm to play with so should still fit in a bar and wing nut.

that gives me another 3.85 liters so just over 3L/kg.

Sounds good!

Thanks for crunching those numbers mate...... very helpful.


----------



## matho

here is some info on the element i got 

View attachment Section_11___DIY_Elements_U_Bend_It.pdf


i got a custom made stainless steel version of UBI-CL-175 on page 11.3

they were not very cheap but they were helpfull and that counts for alot in my book

cheers steve


----------



## Tony

wow the 4800W im looking at is over 4m long 

PERFECT


----------



## riverside

matho said:


> here is some info on the element i got
> 
> View attachment 49195
> 
> 
> i got a custom made stainless steel version of UBI-CL-175 on page 11.3
> 
> they were not very cheap but they were helpfull and that counts for alot in my book
> 
> cheers steve



Thanks Matho, They look like the goods. BTW your rig looks great, top job mate !

Cheers
Riverside


----------



## sp0rk

I used to work for TEE, and I'll admit they do make a good product
just be careful not to go under the 16mm minimum bending radius, otherwise the coil will touch the sides and short out, or you'll split the tube and have magnesium oxide powder everywhere


----------



## AlexL

Matho, you've built an awesome piece of equipment!
Just read the thread for a second time, as I'm currently in the process of sourcing a heating element for my build, incase I missed where it was mentioned - should've just re-read the last page since yesteray. 
Anyway, thanks for the link. Looking forward to getting this thing up and running.


----------



## Tony

riverside said:


> Tony , i am also in the process of building one of these , same 100ltr pot.... What is the max ltrs of wort do you think could be made in a 100ltr pot ? Also what type/size heating element are you thinking of using ?
> 
> Cheers
> Riverside



Sorry mate... i missed your post

I spoke to the element mob today and im looking at getting the same model as matho but 4800w

I worked out that it bent into a circle of about 420mm to fit between the pot wall and malt tube, it will bolt through at about 90 deg seperation to the rear of the pot........... PERFECT!

But only issue i can think of is the large loops of element will sag down and rest on the base of the pot. Thinking now how i can support them with something wasy to clean.


Another thought i had today......... a small adjustable port off the liquor return to the malt tube to pump back to the outer heating area. Im a bit concerned about the liquor on the oposite side to the pump inlet getting hotter due to less turnover. if a small portion is returned at an angle (1/4 bit of tube) to get a nice gentle wirlpool happening in the overlfow/heated area outside the malt tube, it should make the mash steps more efficient too.

But....... will the "path of least resistance" rule stuff this idea with all the wort going up the bug hole and bugger all going up the small one to make a worlpool?

Mmmmmmmmmm more to think about


----------



## Cocko

Tony said:


> i dont want to hijack Matho's thread.



Firstly, amazing build Matho - Like you haven't had any pats on your back.. Great work.

I see Matho said its no prob to hijack the thread , please keep postings here Tony.. 

And all other builds - That way one thread ends up being a resource/recourse rather than everyone posting a new thread.. obviously a few are gonna do a build! I reckon keeping it all together is better than having separate build threads - Like "My first AG and X went wrong" threads - how many do we need!.. Look at the BIAB Toot thread an awesome resource fo any new BIAB'er etc...

AND it saves me us all from tracking more threads!  

:icon_cheers: 

BTW: PIX PIX PIX!

2.maltpipepoint4 cents.




Matho - Your thread, sorry, just sayin.


----------



## matho

Cocko said:


> Firstly, amazing build Matho - Like you haven't had any pats on your back.. Great work.
> 
> I see Matho said its no prob to hijack the thread , please keep postings here Tony..
> 
> And all other builds - That way one thread ends up being a resource/recourse rather than everyone posting a new thread.. obviously a few are gonna do a build! I reckon keeping it all together is better than having separate build threads - Like "My first AG and X went wrong" threads - how many do we need!.. Look at the BIAB Toot thread an awesome resource fo any new BIAB'er etc...
> 
> AND it saves me us all from tracking more threads!
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> 
> BTW: PIX PIX PIX!
> 
> 2.maltpipepoint4 cents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matho - Your thread, sorry, just sayin.



I totally agree with you cocko it would be cool to keep it one thread, i have no problem with that

cheers matho


----------



## AlexL

Guys,

two more sources for 'bend it yourself' elements. 
I ordered the BM73HO from Tobins yesterday and it ended up being $93 delivered to my door. Will let you know how it goes.


http://www.tobins.com.au/Datasheets/DIY.pdf

http://thermalproducts.com.au/catering%20e...ipheader.html#5 (bottom of page)

Alex


----------



## stux

With the 4800W elements...

what sortof power supply are you planning on using on that?

I have a relatively large UPS at my office with a 20A single phase plug on it and the plug on that thing looks like its out of the clock tower scene from back to the future!

dang.

And the plugs were ridiculously expensive too!


----------



## matho

well im going to have to replace the pump because im sure it has put a plastic taint in the beer, im going to replace it with a march pump which will just fit and ill be using these QD so i can quickly remove the pump for cleaning and i can use it for my other brewery





cheers matho


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

matho said:


> well im going to have to replace the pump because im sure it has put a plastic taint in the beer, im going to replace it with a march pump which will just fit and ill be using these QD so i can quickly remove the pump for cleaning and i can use it for my other brewery
> 
> View attachment 49330
> 
> 
> cheers matho


Did you try running the pump on only boiling water to see if it is the problem ?
Given the plastics it should be FG and stable up to 100c.
Nev


----------



## matho

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Did you try running the pump on only boiling water to see if it is the problem ?
> Given the plastics it should be FG and stable up to 100c.
> Nev



hey Nev i think its coming from the exposed magnet, i pulled the pump apart a few days ago and there was a little bit of water in it and the smell is the same taste im getting from the beer

cheers steve


----------



## Tony

I have been looking at these and drooling for a while now

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/index.php?cPath=178_40_131_482


----------



## matho

i was always going to get some camlocks but then i was waiting for pat (my lhbs owner) to weight out and pack some hops when i saw them, the female QD are $15 dollars and the males are $10 so i thought why not, and they are shiny 

cheers steve


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

matho said:


> hey Nev i think its coming from the exposed magnet, i pulled the pump apart a few days ago and there was a little bit of water in it and the smell is the same taste im getting from the beer
> 
> cheers steve


Ok thats interesting, I was going to use one of these pumps (Strontium magnet) for my next project.
Did your seller confirm they are certified FG ?
Nev


----------



## matho

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Ok thats interesting, I was going to use one of these pumps (Strontium magnet) for my next project.
> Did your seller confirm they are certified FG ?
> Nev


no i didn't get in contact with the seller, i did try and email the manufacture but i haven't heard back from them yet, before use i did run PBW thru it at 65 deg for about 30min, maybe im just being a bit paranoid about it, it is a great little pump that fits perfectly, I'm just a bit worried about it

cheers steve


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

matho said:


> no i didn't get in contact with the seller, i did try and email the manufacture but i haven't heard back from them yet, before use i did run PBW thru it at 65 deg for about 30min, maybe im just being a bit paranoid about it, it is a great little pump that fits perfectly, I'm just a bit worried about it
> 
> cheers steve


Cheers Matho, I will get one and run some taste test on it.
I will let you know.
Nev


----------



## DJR

Looking great Steve.

Will have to pop round and have a look at it!


----------



## matho

DJR said:


> Looking great Steve.
> 
> Will have to pop round and have a look at it!


 yep anytime mate


----------



## arzaman

I'm an Italian homebrewer new on the forum and looking around to different "braumeister clone" implementation I have discovered this threadvery interesting and one of the closest to the original one !

If you are interested you can see my rig and ideas on this two threads

Brewtroller Forum


BIAB forum

Matho I have a couple of question for youjust to understand how you fix a couple of question that are worrying me

The first point is the *sealing of the malt pipe *with the external vessel bottomI have tested different solutions with silicon tubing an silicone extrusion but I still have some lack of fluidI'm not able to source a proper silicone gasket with right U channel measurements so I'm still trying to find an alternative solution. Any suggestion is appreciated.

The other point is related to the *tempertature probe placement*I see in some picture you insert it near the pump inlet (and the heating element) outside the malt pipe. In the original assembly it is internal.. near the pump outletany reason for this choice ?

Thank you in advance for support 

regards

Davide


----------



## matho

arzaman said:


> I'm an Italian homebrewer new on the forum and looking around to different "braumeister clone" implementation I have discovered this threadvery interesting and one of the closest to the original one !
> 
> If you are interested you can see my rig and ideas on this two threads
> 
> Brewtroller Forum
> 
> 
> BIAB forum
> 
> Matho I have a couple of question for youjust to understand how you fix a couple of question that are worrying me
> 
> The first point is the *sealing of the malt pipe *with the external vessel bottomI have tested different solutions with silicon tubing an silicone extrusion but I still have some lack of fluidI'm not able to source a proper silicone gasket with right U channel measurements so I'm still trying to find an alternative solution. Any suggestion is appreciated.
> 
> The other point is related to the *tempertature probe placement*I see in some picture you insert it near the pump inlet (and the heating element) outside the malt pipe. In the original assembly it is internal.. near the pump outletany reason for this choice ?
> 
> Thank you in advance for support
> 
> regards
> 
> Davide



first of all welcome to AHB Davide,

to seal the malt pipe i have used just 3/8 heavy duyt silicon hose i got from craftbrewer 










I cut it down one side and it is slightly larger than needed so that it pushes on itself, I think me leaving the lip on has helped with making the seal

the reason for where i put the temp probe was, i didn't want the wort getting too hot and the hottest point would be near the element and putting it near the pump inlet meant the wort would be flowing past it. One thing i did find was that when the pump rest happened and the heat was on the temp didn't rise because all the heat was going up so when the pump came on the temp would overshoot, so i have fixed the problem by making the pump be on whenever the heat is on and only rest when the heat is off.

your build looks awesome and i hope you fix the seal problem

cheers matho


----------



## Tony

yeah,.... im busy drawing up design specs for build and theo one stumbling block i have is malt tube sealing.

im almsot thinking metal on metal...... should be good enough?

cheers


----------



## matho

i can't see why 3/8 hose wouldn't work on straight pipe either here is a pic of some 3/8 on a malt pipe i making up if you make it slightly larger than needed then you can make the ends push against each other ( i need to order more hose from craftbrewer) 




cheers steve


----------



## arzaman

matho said:


> i can't see why 3/8 hose wouldn't work on straight pipe either here is a pic of some 3/8 on a malt pipe i making up if you make it slightly larger than needed then you can make the ends push against each other ( i need to order more hose from craftbrewer)
> 
> View attachment 49364
> 
> 
> cheers steve



Thank you matho for the prompt support !!! Pictures are quite clear... There I a basic difference from your malt pipe and mineyou have used a pot with a big hole so the 3/8 silicon hose cut on one side is pressed between two parallel surfaces ad guarantees the sealing. 

My malt pipe is just a straight stove pipe so I have a thin (0,7mm) vertical wall that should be sealed on a flat bottom with a very small footprint exactly like the last picture added.

I have tested the silicon hose strategy but with poor resultsindeed I have used a very small hoseIn my idea the more the silicone hose is close to the edge the more is the sealing powerI have also used some food grade silicone glue to fix the hose to the edge







I think the best solution is to find a silicon sealing with a |_| channel instead of a U . I have drown some basic profiles asking some manufacturer to extrude few meaters the point is that the MoQ are not affordable I'm still waiting some answers and quotations but if you have any idea let me know !







ciao

Davide


----------



## wobbly

The Grain and Grape web site shows replacement seals for the 50lt malt pipe so Speidel must sell them.

Perhaps you could obtain one from them (or an authorised Speidel retailer in Italy) cut it to the length you require and rejoin it with "super glue"

Check here http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_in...roducts_id=8879

There also list one for the 20lt unit at $14

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## matho

good suggestion wobbly.

Davide the good thing about the 3/8 silicon hose is that it has a wall thickness of 3mm, which with a bit of pressure it compresses to form a seal. I do need to screw down the wing nut a fair bit to make a seal, have you tried more tension on the springs 

cheers steve


----------



## arzaman

Hi 

I have played a little bit around the sealing issueone point I would like to improve was the system on the top of the malt pipe that press down on it in order to guarantee sealing

I have build a little aluminum cross that has 3 anchorages on the external vessel (the one used for the original cover)







In this way I can easily lock the malt pipe and with the external lever amd proper spring I can apply a good pressure on the malt pipe

The result seems encouragingwith the old silicon seal I was able to see the water level going upI expect that with the new U channel silicon seal I'm waiting everything could work

Moreover I have a short threaded pipe in the middle of the cross where I can screw in the top filter. Easy solution to apply and remove at the end of the mash phase.

Hope next post will be the final one with a video of the complete solution..

Ciao

Davide


----------



## kelbygreen

very nice davide looks like alot of work has gone into that build


----------



## matho

looks good davide I'm sure you will be able to sort it out the seal problem. With a thicker seal and more pressure and you will be right.

On the braumiser side of things I have sorted out a few problems with the way the pump rests works, now it waits ten minutes if the heat is still on it waits until the heat is off and turns the pump off for 2 minutes or until the PID calls for more heat. I had to put this in because the way i had it the pump would rest but the heat was still on, with the temp sensor on the bottom and no circulation the temp sensor would not see any temperature rise until the pump would kick back in and then the temp would overshoot.

I have also added, in auto, the ability to finish stages early by holding in the start button for 1/2 a second and also the ability to pause at any time, it won't be long and ill be able to post all the schematics and program information.

cheers matho


----------



## bignath

matho said:


> looks good davide I'm sure you will be able to sort it out the seal problem. With a thicker seal and more pressure and you will be right.
> 
> On the braumiser side of things I have sorted out a few problems with the way the pump rests works, now it waits ten minutes if the heat is still on it waits until the heat is off and turns the pump off for 2 minutes or until the PID calls for more heat. I had to put this in because the way i had it the pump would rest but the heat was still on, with the temp sensor on the bottom and no circulation the temp sensor would not see any temperature rise until the pump would kick back in and then the temp would overshoot.
> 
> I have also added, in auto, the ability to finish stages early by holding in the start button for 1/2 a second and also the ability to pause at any time, it won't be long and ill be able to post all the schematics and program information.
> 
> cheers matho



I'm tipping this will be the most anticipated post of the year coming up Matho! Can't wait to see the hole thing done and dusted.

Awesome work!


----------



## matho

Thanks Nath,

here are some pics from tonights test








with German laws so prohibitive about the amount you can brew I would have thought that speidle would have made a 10l version. The braumiser is the perfect size to brew on the kitchen bench, I reckon that it would be perfect size for apartment brewing (that is if your better half likes the smell of brewing )

cheers matho


----------



## arzaman

Hi

Still fighting with sealing issueI have received the spare part of the original malt pipeand it looks great for sealing pourpose : it's U channel ring enough thick and compressible 

I had to cut in the middle and shorten the total length than I have applied to edge of my stove pipe. It fits quite well and stay attached on the edge as you can see in following pictures





So I was expecting to fix the sealing issue once and for allbut filling the rig with water and starting the pump again poor sealing and non change to fill the malt pipe even applying a strong pressure on the top.

I have tried to troubleshoot again the situation filling the malt pipe from the internal and looking where the leakages occurs.than I have tried with a light inside the malt pipe in a dark environment in order to highlight any empty space between the silicone sealing and the bottom.

With both methodology I was able to detect some leakagesin few zones maybe less than 1mm

The point is that some imperfections of the bottom and the edge are presentand are not compensated by the silicone sealing. 

I realize that the fittings and connector applied to the bottom have slightly modified it the stainless steel bottom is very thin and tightening the connectors in some way the bottom has been modified. 

At this stage I have two chancecontinue with current approach or change the approach (using a pot with a quick disconnect connector or camlock connector)

Last idea I had is to use a liquid silicon rubber mouldable.!! 


Silcone Rubber Mouldable




I have discovered a lot of interesting products that allow you to build your own moulds they are made of two component and you can mix in order to obtain a paste. 

The idea is to use the paste to produce a custom sealing that perfectly compensate the bottom/pipe imperfections

What do you think about ?? It's worth while to try ?




Davide


----------



## kymba

hi davide, good looking work there

can you move the seal up away from the lip of the pipe to give a bit of play? might need to secure it with small machine bolts or something


----------



## matho

Davide,

It could be worth a try, the only problem i can see is if you make a seal to fit the imperfections then you have to make sure that you fit the seal back in the exact location that the seal was made or it won't seal. I still reckon that if you get a thick walled silicon hose then you will be able to compress it enought to seal the bottom of the pipe.

The first pot i had, the bottom warped from drilling the holes but the second pot i was a bit more carefull and because i have a strap of 2mm stainless steel under the pot the bottom has remained warp free. 

Edit: how thick is the braumiester seal on the bottom?
cheers steve


----------



## matho

made up a mounting bracket for the march pump that should be here soon







once the pump arrives ill be putting an IEC male plug on it and wire up a female socket so with the disconnects and the bracket it should be easy to remove

cheers matho


----------



## Tony

Oooooooo im loving this!

I have been planning my rig before i go to see a sheet matal place to have it's parts built....... and the one thing i have stumbled on is sealing of the malt tube.

I have considered having a SS ring welded on the base to form a flat surface, that i can run a good bead of food gade silicon on to seal, but getting the bead even would be interesting.

Im liking hte look of the origional sealing stuff.....anyone know where we can get it from?


----------



## Cocko

Tony said:


> Oooooooo im loving this!
> 
> I have been planning my rig before i go to see a sheet matal place to have it's parts built....... and the one thing i have stumbled on is sealing of the malt tube.
> 
> I have considered having a SS ring welded on the base to form a flat surface, that i can run a good bead of food gade silicon on to seal, but getting the bead even would be interesting.
> 
> Im liking hte look of the origional sealing stuff.....anyone know where we can get it from?




Here bud.


----------



## Tony

Ahhhh awsome!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now..... does anyone know the diameter of a Spiedel 50 liter malt tube?


----------



## Tony

Well thanks to a fellow AHB'r i have discovered they are 350mm diameter...... PERFECT


----------



## Tony

found this for Spiral wended SS tube... 304 or 316.

Will ring them on monday to see what sort of lengths and costs....... 355mm x 1.6mm should take the stock 50l seal perfectly

http://www.atlassteels.com.au/documents/tu...rect_spiral.pdf


----------



## matho

So here is the mechanical part of the build in PDF 

View attachment BrauMiser_Build_Part_1.pdf


the next part will cover the controller build and the final part will be and instruction maunal

I should have the second part finished in a couple of days hopefully

cheers steve


----------



## kelbygreen

nice steve would love to see your thoughts after a few brews. I might wait to upgrade to a herms and go something like this. Although I still want to do doubles and dont like the idea of electric but its hard to automate gas haha.


----------



## matho

kelbygreen said:


> nice steve would love to see your thoughts after a few brews. I might wait to upgrade to a herms and go something like this. Although I still want to do doubles and dont like the idea of electric but its hard to automate gas haha.


yep no worries mate


----------



## booargy

where is the electrics part?


----------



## kelbygreen

next few days he said. Sure there is a heap to put in its not a simple build even with the instructions I am sure if your not a electrician or a electrical engineer then you will have to get one to help you


----------



## riverside

Tony said:


> Well thanks to a fellow AHB'r i have discovered they are 350mm diameter...... PERFECT



Hi Tony

Do you know the height of the 50ltr malt pipe ?

Cheers


----------



## Tony

riverside said:


> Hi Tony
> 
> Do you know the height of the 50ltr malt pipe ?
> 
> Cheers




Copy / Paste:

the 50L malt pipe is 350mm OD x 472 long. It has a 10mm lip rolled over at 90 deg at the top as well as a 10 mm deep 'V' indent rolled inward 90mm up from the bottom to hold the bottom filter plate.


Mine will be 350 x 450 and will work something out to hold the bottom filter plate...... 4 bits of 12mm dia SS round bar, 10mm long, drilled and tapped and screwed in from the outside should work fine!


----------



## seamad

Arzaman,
Dont know what your malt tube diam is but you can get big hose type clamps. Put your filter in then tighten up, should seal it up nice i reckon.
Cheers
Sean


----------



## Tony

kelbygreen said:


> and dont like the idea of electric but its hard to automate gas haha.




Mate...... with gas, you lose about 90% of the heat energy you produce around the side...... not much goes into the kettle. With electric its the opposite.

Far more energy efficient thus cheaper to run!

Also i hate the noise of a big burner when i want to listen to music while brewing :super:


----------



## AlexL

Hey Guys,

thought I'd share the progress of my build so far.
I'm using a 32L pot with an 11L malt pipe and a 2.4kW element. The control system is a Brewtroller Lite. I still need to fit a thermowell but apart from that I'm almost finished. Next step is to learn how to do my first all grain brew.

Alex


----------



## Tony

BIAB............ say hello to the next best thing!

This is going to be a BIG thread i think 

Im going to order my fittings, electronics and element next week and start getting prices on stands and malt tube materials 

Ooooooo i cant wait to get this baby together


----------



## matho

looking good Alex, I would like to see more about the brewtroller lite and your program for it.

Tony, the build is the best part I think, I love designing and making things and seeing them work at the end, keeps my brain busy

keep them coming guys

cheers matho


----------



## AlexL

Hey Matho

http://www.brewtroller.com/ is a good place to start. The lite version is the latest evolution in Brewtroller systems but would be able to handle up to a 3V system. It's only been out for a couple of months and I've yet to work out how to program it for a single vessel set up. I know that Arnie has a Brewtroller so it's definitely possible. I'll keep you updated on how I go.

Where did you source your thermowell from?

Cheers,

Alex


----------



## matho

AlexL said:


> Where did you source your thermowell from?



hehe i made it out of a 10mm stainless steel bolt











I used a lathe to make this but i have made one with just a drill and bench grinder 

cheers matho


----------



## komodo

Matho where did you get the element made up?
did they have to bend it to shape for you or was it flexible to do the turn around in the pot? Very interested in that element!
roughly how much did it cost if you dont mind my asking? 

Cheers


----------



## matho

Komodo said:


> Matho where did you get the element made up?
> did they have to bend it to shape for you or was it flexible to do the turn around in the pot? Very interested in that element!
> roughly how much did it cost if you dont mind my asking?
> 
> Cheers



I got the element made up by a company called Thermal Electric Elements, it was delivered straight and i had to bend it but im sure they could bend it for you, they are very helpfull.
I would say that bending it by hand is on par with bending 1/2 copper pipe by hand, for the large bends its not hard but for the tighter bends i would recommend getting a small pipe bender.

The cost for a custom made 316 stainless steel element delivered to my door was $172, it sound like a bit but i got exactly what i wanted and it was of excellent quality.

cheers matho


----------



## AlexL

Cheers Matho,
unfortunately I have neither a bench grinder nor lathe... the perils of apartment living. However I do like the look of yours.

Komodo,

If you want to spend a little bit less on an element I posted some links a page or two back - I paid $93 for mine shipped (2.4kW 2000mm). Not as shiny as mathos though.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Been following this for a bit was wondering if anyone knew the dimensions of speidles 20l malt pipe? Great work btw matho, I can see this thread growing as others make their own, with individual innovations.
Mike


----------



## Tony

Ok.... question for those with one........

I have been thinking about what sort of clearance is good or bad for the false bottom, and top plates around the outside, where they go in the malt tube.

And...... Im thinking of getting SS mesh / cloth as a filter for the FB plates..... whjat do you recon would be a good apature?

Im thinking 500 or 750 micron ???

Thoughts


----------



## the_new_darren

I had to watch the video to understand how this worked.

How much for the 200 Litre one with inbuilt cooling?

tnd


----------



## Malted

Tony said:


> Ok.... question for those with one........
> I have been thinking about what sort of clearance is good or bad for the false bottom, and top plates around the outside, where they go in the malt tube.


I can't tell you what is good or bad but I can tell you the 50L jobby has an element that is about 80mm up from the bottom and the bottom falsie in the malt pipe is about 100mm from the bottom. It does not seem to scortch the bottom plate or grain, I guess the pump moving the liquid helps. Every 10 minutes or so the pump stops for a break but I have not noted if the element stops during this semi-phase. 
The 50L has two elements (3,600W in total) - one under the malt pipe (contained by it) and one in the wort between the malt pipe and the outer sides of the vessel (around the malt pipe). I do not know if the inside element under the malt pipe runs flat bicky or if the outer element has more amps running to it. 

Not sure about your question that I have marked in red. Do you mean the diameter of the false bottom versus the diameter of the malt pipe? Or am I totally off track?


----------



## hosko11

Tony said:


> And...... Im thinking of getting SS mesh / cloth as a filter for the FB plates..... whjat do you recon would be a good apature?
> 
> Im thinking 500 or 750 micron ???
> 
> Thoughts


I can't help much with the right aperture, but I plan on using SS mesh for at least the top filter as well. Worst case, if it doesn't work well you can enclose it with a voile bag like what MHB (i think) sells for the BM - that's my plan.

I brought mesh in 5 different apertures and wire thicknesses to try:
#16, 0.028"
#20, 0.023" 
#8, 0.063" 
#10, 0.035" 
#8, 0.047"
Also will be using some stainless to create a frame that the mesh will sit against to provide further support and rigidity, though I'm starting to worry about weight as I was planning to have a floating top filter like the BM....
Cheers,
Hosko


----------



## matho

I etched some more boards last night for two reasons, one I have done some changes and i want to see if it works and two im putting together a pictorial on how to etch the boards





cheers matho


----------



## NickB

Love your work Matho. I'm considering one just for shits and giggles as I'm happy with my HERMS, but I love to build stuff. Was looking at the cheaper BrewTroller, but if you are going to provide a parts list etc I might go that way. Now to get it past the 'financial controller'... Ahem.



Cheers!


----------



## matho

NickB said:


> Love your work Matho. I'm considering one just for shits and giggles as I'm happy with my HERMS, but I love to build stuff. Was looking at the cheaper BrewTroller, but if you are going to provide a parts list etc I might go that way. Now to get it past the 'financial controller'... Ahem.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers!


yeah nick I plan on putting together a parts list with reference to where i got it from hopefully tonight

cheers


----------



## bignath

matho said:


> yeah nick I plan on putting together a parts list with reference to where i got it from hopefully tonight
> 
> cheers



Legend!

Looking forward to this one...


----------



## Tony

Malted said:


> I can't tell you what is good or bad but I can tell you the 50L jobby has an element that is about 80mm up from the bottom and the bottom falsie in the malt pipe is about 100mm from the bottom. It does not seem to scortch the bottom plate or grain, I guess the pump moving the liquid helps. Every 10 minutes or so the pump stops for a break but I have not noted if the element stops during this semi-phase.
> The 50L has two elements (3,600W in total) - one under the malt pipe (contained by it) and one in the wort between the malt pipe and the outer sides of the vessel (around the malt pipe). I do not know if the inside element under the malt pipe runs flat bicky or if the outer element has more amps running to it.
> 
> Not sure about your question that I have marked in red. Do you mean the diameter of the false bottom versus the diameter of the malt pipe? Or am I totally off track?



You are totaly on track!
Im wondering how much clearance between the false top and bottom plates is acceptable inside the malt tube?

2 elements hey........ well thats a great idea and makes sence. I have been concerned about a lot of energy in the outer ring of liquid and uneven temperatures with the large diameter and a single draw point......... that would silve this problem!

Back to the drawing board 



Ppp said:


> though I'm starting to worry about weight as I was planning to have a floating top filter like the BM....
> Cheers,
> Hosko



Ive thought about this and a bit of SS tube over the centersupport rod between the top and bottom plates should keep them seperated...... its just an idea at this stage 


Got some things happening today with getting a malt tube and stand made.......... just need to order all the fittings and electronics on line now.

cheers


----------



## Malted

Tony said:


> You are totaly on track!
> Im wondering how much clearance between the false top and bottom plates is acceptable inside the malt tube?
> 2 elements hey........ well thats a great idea and makes sence. I have been concerned about a lot of energy in the outer ring of liquid and uneven temperatures with the large diameter and a single draw point......... that would silve this problem!
> Back to the drawing board
> Ive thought about this and a bit of SS tube over the centersupport rod between the top and bottom plates should keep them seperated...... its just an idea at this stage
> Got some things happening today with getting a malt tube and stand made.......... just need to order all the fittings and electronics on line now.
> cheers


Clearance between top and bottom filter plates? That is where the grain is. There is a rod through the middle and both plates and grain can slide up it during pump flow or down when you lift the malt pipe out. Still not following that train of thought. Why try to seperate the top and bottom plates, the grain does that?

The 50L also has two pumps so there are two draw points from the liquid outside the malt pipe - down into pumps - squirted up through grain in malt pipe - overflow back into space between malt pipe and vessell wall. 

Happy to take & post pictures of any part of the BM you want. Matho appears to be replicating the system very well.


----------



## Tony

pictures of the elements and the inside base arangement would be awsome!


----------



## Malted

Tony said:


> pictures of the elements and the inside base arangement would be awsome!



View of the inside of a 50L BM, showing two elements. 
The other element work around that might work, would be one of those concealed elements from an urn. I saw someone bolt one of them into the bottom of a keg somewhere here on AHB. The BM elements heat pretty quickly (15amp/3,600watts) and I suppose it comes down to element surface area contact with wort. A concealed urn element would be neat and tidy and easier? to clean but may not ramp as quickly due to less surface area contact with the wort? In a small volume Braumiser build, maybe it wouldn't be an issue.




Obviously the view from below. I believe the 20L BM has one element and one pump. 



These are the filter plates. The piece of tube in the centre would serve to help align them on the horizontal plane. If they were not there, one side could be up and one side down etc. Also keeps them horizontal as they move or are lifted out with the malt pipe.


----------



## matho

Awesome Malted :beerbang: 

I love AHB, ask and thou shall recieve 

for the record the braumiser has a ramp rate of 2.5 deg/min

note: i had never seen the underside of the braumeister until after I had built mine, I wasn't too far off the mark all I have to do is put plugs on my control unit instead of being hard wired

cheers 
steve


----------



## hosko11

Malted said:


> These are the filter plates. The piece of tube in the centre would serve to help align them on the horizontal plane. If they were not there, one side could be up and one side down etc. Also keeps them horizontal as they move or are lifted out with the malt pipe. View attachment 49726


Thanks for the photo's and info Malted. Would you be able to please tell me what the thickness of the filter plates are? I'm not sure what thickness material to use to ensure the they're rigid enough to withstand the pressure applied by the pumps. This would give me something to work from.
Thanks,
Hosko


----------



## matho

matho said:


> the next part will cover the controller build and the final part will be and instruction maunal
> 
> I should have the second part finished in a couple of days hopefully
> 
> cheers steve



Sorry but putting together the controller PDF is taking longer than I expected Hopefully it will be soon, I have compiled the overlays , the schematics, the PCB artwork, the Box layout and the parts list all i have left to do is write up the instructions

cheers steve


----------



## Tony

Great work Malted.... thatks for that.

2 Pumps...... i have a march 815....... im thinking it will do the job easy with duel pickips and duel returns to get a better coverage of flow and temperature.

Matho....... Im thinking i may use 2 elements as well, and get some of the oil heating elements they have...... longer per watt 

PErsonally i cant see any reason to rest the pump..... ither than the pumps being cheap and having a crap duty cycle...... they probably need to "rest" to cool down and stop from burning out. Something a March pump doesnt suffer from.


----------



## matho

Hey Tony,

the pump that the Braumeister uses is a Vortex BW 152 

it looks like the specs on them is

Technical data:
Operating voltage: 230 V
Rpm: 2700 rpm
Power draw: max. 25 W
May. operating pressure: 10 bar
Temperature resistance: 95 C
Max. flow rate: 640 l/h
Max delivery height: 1.25 m

so an 815 would have it covered
the BW 152 is a hot water recirculating pump so it should be able handle continuous pumping, so I think the pump rests are for another reason. When i did my one brew on the braumiser it looked like the pump rest allowed the grain to settle and allow new paths thru the gain bed to form but i don't really know

cheers steve


----------



## Malted

Ppp said:


> Thanks for the photo's and info Malted. Would you be able to please tell me what the thickness of the filter plates are? I'm not sure what thickness material to use to ensure the they're rigid enough to withstand the pressure applied by the pumps. This would give me something to work from.
> Thanks,
> Hosko



I don't have a vernier caliper or such to measure them. You certainly would have trouble bending them. I put a tape on them (the best measuring device I have!) and they look pretty much spot on 2mm thick with 3mm perforated holes. They're quite heavy too, one is 1.05kg and one is 1.09kg.


----------



## Malted

Tony said:


> Great work Malted.... thatks for that.
> 
> 2 Pumps...... i have a march 815....... im thinking it will do the job easy with duel pickips and duel returns to get a better coverage of flow and temperature.
> 
> Matho....... Im thinking i may use 2 elements as well, and get some of the oil heating elements they have...... longer per watt
> 
> PErsonally i cant see any reason to rest the pump..... ither than the pumps being cheap and having a crap duty cycle...... they probably need to "rest" to cool down and stop from burning out. Something a March pump doesnt suffer from.



Make sure the pump pick-ups don't fight! :lol: 

Two elements: I guess it depends on the volume of your device. The 20L BM probably could do a boil volume of 30+ L and only has one element and is only 10Amps (max of 2,400 watts) . My 3V HLT has a Craft Brewer 2,200 watt stick element and will boil 40L. 

Yeah I would think the pump rest is as Matho said about letting the grain bed settle, sounds reasonable.


----------



## hosko11

matho said:


> When i did my one brew on the braumiser it looked like the pump rest allowed the grain to settle and allow new paths thru the gain bed to form but i don't really know


This was the theory I read somewhere - possibly in the main BM thread on AHB or homebrewtalk. Depending on the quantity of grain and crush I could imagine the grain bed could possibly range anywhere from being to compacted to forming significant channeling, so as Matho says pausing the pump lets the grain re-settle and then form a new grain bed when pumping resumes.


----------



## hosko11

Malted said:


> I don't have a vernier caliper or such to measure them. You certainly would have trouble bending them. I put a tape on them (the best measuring device I have!) and they look pretty much spot on 2mm thick with 3mm perforated holes. They're quite heavy too, one is 1.05kg and one is 1.09kg.


Thanks Malted. I have seen the 20L ones in the flesh and thinking back 2mm would seem about right. I wouldn't have guessed the 50L one to come in at 1kg though!! that's pretty hefty.
Cheers,
Hosko


----------



## Malted

Tony said:


> 2 Pumps...... i have a march 815....... im thinking it will do the job easy with duel pickips and duel returns to get a better coverage of flow and temperature.
> 
> Matho....... Im thinking i may use 2 elements as well, and get some of the oil heating elements they have...... longer per watt


Tony, I have been thinking about this for a while.

I recently had some communication with the manufacturer of the pumps on the BM. I thought they are good because they are very easy to dissassemble _in situ_ and by hand. The manufacturer informs me they have no agents in Australia and that one pump would cost 105.30 Euro plus 86.85 Euro for delivery to Aus (or about $192 AUD today). Similar specs to a March pump perhaps, similar price? Smaller German unit versus larger American unit. Smaller may be easier to incorporate into a build. 

From what I have heard, there is quite a bit of deadspace between the bottom filter plate and the base of the unit that is neccessary given the element under the bottom filter plate. Some have said that the 50L model with the 'short malt pipe' for 20L really is more like a 30L thingy because of having to be raised above the inside element. If you were wanting a small batch machine I don't think having an element under the malt pipe would be advantageous. I think one element between the malt pipe and the vessel wall would be better and would allow the malt pipe to be lowered for a smaller volume. The outside element heats the liquid, it is drawn down through the pump and up into the grain, minimal heat loss after the pump comes up to temp and not much of a chance of it being scortched since it is being pumped. Comparitevely, RIMS systems only have one element to heat the wort that is pumped through the grain. Two elements are probably a neat thing for large volumes but not required for small volumes, i'd imagine.

Why do I care? Well now that I have a 50L BM (and loving it I might add) and can see, examine and pull it apart, I am thinking yeah I could build a 10L volume jobby for experiemental brews (also fuelled by threads such as this). That's why I am interested in helping you guys nut it out, just in case I too decide to build a small volume jobby too.


----------



## matho

Thanks for all the information malted, I would have loved to get one of those pumps but getting it here seemed too much a PITA to do 

cheers matho


----------



## Tony

Some great discussion in this thread amd Malted...... thanks for your input!

Pump: The BM pump is rated to 640 L/hr.... which is 10.6 L/min at max 1.25m head.

March 815 is rated at 30L/min at max 4.1m head.

http://www.tescopumps.com/servlet/the-225/...-809BRHS/Detail

Thats basicly like having 3 of the BM pumps....... im planning on a ball valve on the pump outlet to throtle it back if i need to. I dont think the single pump will be a problem.

Elements....... I have had thesame thoughts as you............ I plan on using the system for 54 liter batches, 9 to 11Kg or grain in the mash. I believe the 50L BM holds the bottom plate up 90mm from the base, and i have re-planned my rig with this raised base plate in the drawings. It reduces my mash volume by about 2 liters which i can live with.

I was concerned about using a high wattage element on just the outer ring, as it would not heat evenly depending on mash flow rates, pump inlet point ect........ so duel elements (2000w in the malt tube and 2750 outside @ 33KW/meter (about 7 meters of elements)) and duel pump inlets and outlets at the pot base should give me a more consistant heating effect, and bugger all scorching if i want to step the temp fast.

I want the extra power to be able to step fast if i want, and get to boil faster.......... Id rather be looking at it and turning it down, than looking for it and cursing!

God bless PID control


----------



## the_new_darren

Correct me if I am wrong but..........the Braumeister works almost like an upside-down mash?

If thats the case, then resting the pumps to "establish" a new grain bed would result in relocation of the smaller particles.

I reckon its to stop clogging of the "screens" with the smaller particles (ie stuck mash)

cheers

tnd


----------



## matho

Well here it is the whole build i hope everything is OK i have tried hard to make sure it is correct 

View attachment The_Braumiser_build.zip


hope you enjoy

cheers steve


----------



## bignath

matho said:


> Well here it is the whole build i hope everything is OK i have tried hard to make sure it is correct
> 
> View attachment 49886
> 
> 
> hope you enjoy
> 
> cheers steve



Mate, you are a legend.

This is surely gonna be the most downloaded attachment ever.

Thanks so much for all of your hard work in paving the way so that those that are interested in this style of automation in a brewery can have a go at doing it ourselves.

Many thanks fella,

Nathan


----------



## stux

Tony said:


> Some great discussion in this thread amd Malted...... thanks for your input!
> 
> Pump: The BM pump is rated to 640 L/hr.... which is 10.6 L/min at max 1.25m head.
> 
> March 815 is rated at 30L/min at max 4.1m head.
> 
> http://www.tescopumps.com/servlet/the-225/...-809BRHS/Detail
> 
> Thats basicly like having 3 of the BM pumps....... im planning on a ball valve on the pump outlet to throtle it back if i need to. I dont think the single pump will be a problem.
> 
> Elements....... I have had thesame thoughts as you............ I plan on using the system for 54 liter batches, 9 to 11Kg or grain in the mash. I believe the 50L BM holds the bottom plate up 90mm from the base, and i have re-planned my rig with this raised base plate in the drawings. It reduces my mash volume by about 2 liters which i can live with.
> 
> I was concerned about using a high wattage element on just the outer ring, as it would not heat evenly depending on mash flow rates, pump inlet point ect........ so duel elements (2000w in the malt tube and 2750 outside @ 33KW/meter (about 7 meters of elements)) and duel pump inlets and outlets at the pot base should give me a more consistant heating effect, and bugger all scorching if i want to step the temp fast.
> 
> I want the extra power to be able to step fast if i want, and get to boil faster.......... Id rather be looking at it and turning it down, than looking for it and cursing!
> 
> God bless PID control



If you modified the inlet shape so it sortof sucked at an angle would it create a small whirlpool effect and thus keep the wort moving around the heating elements?


----------



## hirns

The pumps look to be a similar size to the Grunfos UP 15-14 which recirculates hot water for my solar system. The Grunfos is probable cost prohibited but I bet that there is a cheaper knock off version.


----------



## Cocko

Big Nath said:


> Mate, you are a legend.
> 
> This is surely gonna be the most downloaded attachment ever.
> 
> Thanks so much for all of your hard work in paving the way so that those that are interested in this style of automation in a brewery can have a go at doing it ourselves.
> 
> Many thanks fella,
> 
> Nathan




I could say it so much better but just can't at the moment because.. of .... umm. stuff.

So will +1 or as above or 'this' to Big Naths comment as it will be felt by most, well said Nat!

Great ******* work Matho and thanks for the effort and contribution, that will be forever giving to the brewer hood!

:icon_cheers:


----------



## Tony

Stux said:


> If you modified the inlet shape so it sortof sucked at an angle would it create a small whirlpool effect and thus keep the wort moving around the heating elements?



If im turning over a good amount of liquid...........and have a low KW/meter element it should be fine........ but something i have thought of...... as maybe a future mod..... overflow pikup with angled pipe returnes to the bottom..... to reduce splashing and angle the return for a wirlpool effect


----------



## hosko11

Malted said:


> I recently had some communication with the manufacturer of the pumps on the BM. I thought they are good because they are very easy to dissassemble _in situ_ and by hand. The manufacturer informs me they have no agents in Australia and that one pump would cost 105.30 Euro plus 86.85 Euro for delivery to Aus (or about $192 AUD today). Similar specs to a March pump perhaps, similar price? Smaller German unit versus larger American unit. Smaller may be easier to incorporate into a build.





hirns said:


> The pumps look to be a similar size to the Grunfos UP 15-14 which recirculates hot water for my solar system. The Grunfos is probable cost prohibited but I bet that there is a cheaper knock off version.



Another alternative is the Laing/Lowara Ecocirc pumps (from what I can tell are owned by ITT, who also owns Vortex). I purchased this Ecocirc E3 delivered for $190AUD 3 months ago. From what I can tell it's basically the same physical size as the BM pump, but has the benefit of having a variable speed. One possibility significant difference between this pump and the BM one is the impeller though. The Ecocirc has enclosed impeller vanes (contrary to pictures on the net) whereas the BM is open and I'm thinking the open impeller may handle bits of grist and hops matter better. Time will tell I guess once I can start my build - just need a few bits of stainless from Geordi's and a Dremel.
Cheers,
Hosko


----------



## arzaman

During the raining week end I had time to proceed with the last attempt to seal the malt pipe with the external vessel.Since I was not able to find a proper silicone sealing the idea was to build myself the sealing using silicone rubber mouldable 

I say in advance that the result is ok ! at the end of the day I achieved my aim and I'm quite satisfied of this custom solution !The product is provided with two different oaste componentsyou have to mix in equal part and than you can mould very easly in any form.

The main attention is the time to harden in 3-4 minutes the silicone becomes hardso you have not so many time to produce an extrusion and apply to the malt pipe.

I had to repeat the procedure two timesthe first time an excess of pressure has cut the sealingthe second time I produced a thicker extrusion and even if it's not so regular it works well.

Here is the result








The sealing compensate all the errors in the bottom and the pipeit's soft enough an can be easily compressed. 

Now the water level can easily reach the top of the malt pipe and even without any pressure just with the malt pipe water weightthe leakage is very low and the flow is stable.

You can see the result with pure water in this video.

VIDEO OF WATER TEST


Finally I have built the top filter with again with a cheese mold bottom and fine grid. The filter is anchored to the top cross and can be easily inserted and removed.





Since everything was ready I have done a final test with 4kg of crushed malt grain just to see if the pump , the filter, the sealing, the heating element is ok in running conditionand everything seems work well as you can see in this last video !

VIDEO OF MALT GRAIN TEST


I have to fine tune some minor issue but I'm ready for the first batchI have to work on the recipe and perform all the calculation for my rigbut the spreadsheet calculator from BIAB forum is a great help !

I will continue update with the first beer resultsfor the moment thank you all for inspiration, suggestions, help, advices

Davide


----------



## matho

looks awesome davide I'm glad that you sorted the sealing problem

cheers steve


----------



## Tony

arzaman..... your set up looks good but im my books.... wouldnt you get better heat retention and lower power use if you could cover the top of the vessel to hold heat in?

Power is getting very expensive in Aus due to privetisation sell offs of the power grid ,and i want my baby sealed

But it certanly looks like a great idea to ditch the center rod!


----------



## Malted

Tony said:


> But it certanly looks like a great idea to ditch the center rod!


Centre rod does a lot to align things; keeps the bottom of the malt pipe at the same distance from the element for instance. Wouldn't want your silcone seal covering one of the inlets or outlets. I see Davide has markings on the hold down device to compensate. Also the filter plates do move up and down during the process. The rod stops them from tilting to one side and letting grain out.


----------



## Tony

I already have my center rod cut........ 12mm 316ss rod....... Center rod is going to be a part of mine....... but i recon i will curse it while stiring.... but i will get used to it.

cheers


----------



## Malted

Tony said:


> I already have my center rod cut........ 12mm 316ss rod....... Center rod is going to be a part of mine....... but i recon i will curse it while stiring.... but i will get used to it.
> 
> cheers



Oi oi oi, 12mm, that'll look very phallic. That's a big whoer. I am more worried about scratching the malt pipe than worried about the centre rod being in the way.


----------



## arzaman

Tony said:


> arzaman..... your set up looks good but im my books.... wouldnt you get better heat retention and lower power use if you could cover the top of the vessel to hold heat in?


 I got the pointbut I think that in a DIY project built with surplus equipment, home tools, empirical design the energy efficiency is not my primary driver

Nevertheless the external vessel is insulatedand this is a great improvement compared to original braumeisterespecially during the boiling phase.


Than most of the energy is required during boiling phase where you cant use a top coverso I really dont care about energy consumption 


Davide


----------



## arzaman

Malted said:


> Centre rod does a lot to align things; keeps the bottom of the malt pipe at the same distance from the element for instance. Wouldn't want your silcone seal covering one of the inlets or outlets. I see Davide has markings on the hold down device to compensate. Also the filter plates do move up and down during the process. The rod stops them from tilting to one side and letting grain out.



about the center rodmy idea was not to have anything welded or screwed in the middle of the external vessel (like original braumeister)in order to leave the bottom very clean and insert the pump outlet exactly in the middle (the idea is to build a whirlpool tubing mechanism) 

The bottom filter is silicon sealed in the malt pipe channelthe top filter is removable and joined to the top cross and that is automatically centered by 3 cuts. Maybe a couple of pictures are more significant than my poor English











regards 

Davide


----------



## Tanga

Better than most of our Italian Davide. Thanks for sharing your results. It is good to see the different ways people make their machines.


----------



## matho

matho said:


> Well here it is the whole build i hope everything is OK i have tried hard to make sure it is correct
> 
> View attachment 49886
> 
> 
> hope you enjoy
> 
> cheers steve



I have just noticed i didn't describe any of the connections on th PCB's, some are labeled but some aren't so i have marked up a PDF describing the connections

View attachment connections_ofThe_braumiser.pdf


cheers steve


----------



## matho

the march pump just squeezes under the pot




there is going to be a bit of hose hanging out the side, not as neat as the small pump but i know this one is food grade. I could probably make it neater but i want to be able to remove the pump quickly for cleaning and other uses

cheers matho


----------



## mccuaigm

You guys are fuckin fantastic, what a great thread.

Nice work, love aussie ingenuity.


----------



## Tony

sorry mate... had to have a stir


----------



## MastersBrewery

matho, love your work , I just note one thing ..... for us electronic and programing newbies I think the controler is a bit beyond a first project type build, and I really do understand and appreciate the amount of work and effort you have put in to make this available to us all, would you consider making the controler box to order in some sort standard format. I for one would be prepared to pay for your time, effort and knowledge.  I just got finacial approval from the family finacial director, to build one so happy days!!


----------



## matho

@ Tony hehehe

MB, I would like to be able to offer a kit of sorts but i don't think ill be able too, I am working on a single board version so maybe if there is enough interest I'll try and get 10 boards made up. I'm also building a chip programmer so once that is done i can pre program the chip. Then getting the rest of the components together would be that hard for someone to do.

here is what the march pump on the pot finished looks like 



I really like how quick it is to remove i can have the pump out in under 30 seconds.




cheers matho


----------



## Cocko

matho said:


> @ Tony hehehe
> 
> MB, I would like to be able to offer a kit of sorts but i don't think ill be able too, I am working on a single board version so maybe if there is enough interest I'll try and get 10 boards made up. I'm also building a chip programmer so once that is done i can pre program the chip. Then getting the rest of the components together would be that hard for someone to do.
> 
> 
> cheers matho




MAy I suggest MB starts a new thread for interest as to not bombard this one with, _I wanna control box, me too, yeah I'm in.. can you build me one etc?

_
Just a thought.

But yes, I want one too - hardest part..


----------



## Tony

I fully understand people wanting a hand made one...... they do look the goods...... but for those who want a ready bought one....... i just ordered one of these for mine.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...2cc7484ccf182f0

30 programable steps, dual alarm relays, Analogue output to run one of these:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...;products_id=30

That puppy is good for 9600w @ 240v and there is a 25A good for 6000w @ 250v for $15

Going to fit it to one of these:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...products_id=224

cost about $150 delivered.

They have temp probes, flashing alarm buzzers ( i ordered one of these too ) and other cool stuff.

cheers


----------



## Cocko

Tony, surely you are due to post some pics mate?

Come on...


----------



## Malted

I vote for a name change. I think he has earnt it; the "MathoMeiser".


----------



## seemax

You can get knock off PIDs including a K-type thermo and 25A SSR for $40 !!

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-PID-Tem...=item4aaf9aa4da

For my project I'm using an Arduino with inputs from toggle switches, output to LCD, etc.. with a SSR for the heating element.

Temperature is read via a stainless DS18B20 weldless probe ($12 !!!).


----------



## Robbo2234

hey that looks good!

would you need a thermowell with that probe or can you use a ss nut and washeres to hold it to the vessel?


----------



## Maheel

Robbo2234 said:


> hey that looks good!
> 
> would you need a thermowell with that probe or can you use a ss nut and washeres to hold it to the vessel?



i use a TC like that with a nut just soldered on a pipe and it screwed in, seems to not leak and is "happy" (bit of thread tape)
a nut on the inside and it screwed through a very thin wall area should be fine and no leaks i reckon 

i just use mine to measure temp but, not drive a SSR / pid


----------



## Robbo2234

Is the pipe just there to protect the probe?


----------



## Maheel

Robbo2234 said:


> Is the pipe just there to protect the probe?



if you mean mine 

the copper pipe carries the fluid 
brass nut soldered onto outside of pipe with hole drilled "through nut" (i drilled the hole 1st)
TC screwed into nut and protrudes into pipe and fluid

nothing "protects" probe 

i have another set up where i just have a home made thermo well using a bit of 1/4 copper tube with one end soldered up
drill hole in pipe, solder in the thermo well and drop in a cheap digi thermometer. it seems to react to change fairly well


----------



## QldKev

seemax said:


> You can get knock off PIDs including a K-type thermo and 25A SSR for $40 !!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-PID-Tem...=item4aaf9aa4da
> 
> For my project I'm using an Arduino with inputs from toggle switches, output to LCD, etc.. with a SSR for the heating element.
> 
> Temperature is read via a stainless DS18B20 weldless probe ($12 !!!).




This one is good if you only want a single step to be setup, 

then one Tony is using allows upto 30 steps, which is a lot better if you want to do stepped mashes.

QldKev


----------



## matho

Robbo2234 said:


> hey that looks good!
> 
> would you need a thermowell with that probe or can you use a ss nut and washeres to hold it to the vessel?



the reason for a thermowell is to get the probe up into the liquid, the sensors don't like to be in water.

cheers matho


----------



## Tony

Cocko said:


> Tony, surely you are due to post some pics mate?
> 
> Come on...



Ahhh mate..... no progress as yet. The pot has been sitting in my garage for nigh on 1.5 years now while worked out what the hell to do with it.

Juat getting all the parts together and planning it so it will work the way i want it to.

If im getting a stand made and malt tube made, i want to make sure i have it right first..... 

Electronics on the way, pump in hand, I need to order the elements, but havnt entirely decided on how to do that bit yet, and still fine tuning the over all design on paper.

Hey.... i have a great brewery so im in no rush......but it was built in a hurry with some compromises........ this one wont be!

cheers


----------



## thelastspud

I was reading through the code you wrote matho, and I'm only in my first year of learning to program 
but I thought it was bad to use GOTOs or is that really language dependent?


----------



## Zizzle

Bradley said:


> I was reading through the code you wrote matho, and I'm only in my first year of learning to program
> but I thought it was bad to use GOTOs or is that really language dependent?



It is.

In ASM it's all you've got.

In C it's considered bad form, unless you are using it in low level systems code, or error handling within relatively short methods. e.g. quite a few bail out points with a common resource release. Use a goto to save a forest of ifs.

In C++ just bad form (you have exceptions to do the error handling a lot of the time).

In new high level languages it doesn't even exist.

But really it's only a concern for large projects. For a few hundred line embedded projects it doesn't matter so much.

In Basic, well, I don't think there is much consideration, since it's considered a bit of a toy language. It's a beginners language and no one really does large projects in it.

Just think of it this way: what would you like to see when you come back to change your code in a years time?
On the other hand, how much time do you want to spend avoiding gotos when you can just add one and get on with life?


----------



## matho

yep I'm a bit of a hack when it comes to programming but it does work, one thing i have noticed is that i put the wrong picbasic file in the ZIP, 

View attachment Braumiser_V1.01.txt


this is the proper program that has the fixed pump control

cheers matho


----------



## kirem

I hacked around at the beginning of the year trying to get a single vessel to work with brewtroller. In the end, I decided to go back to my trusty auberins programmable PID temp controller and a counter. I have named mine;

*"The one pot screamer"*

I was working on a design that eliminated the bottom seal. Basically the 'malt pipe' is a smaller pot that is suspended at the top of the outer vessel (keg). The keg was cut open and left a lip, the pot I used for a 'malt pipe' was flared at the top, I cut a circle out of the bottom and fitted a false bottom to the 'malt pipe'. I was then pumping from the bottom of the outer vessel back over the top into the malt pipe. Probably sounds double dutch, I'll take some pictures.

I have some 3 way automated valves, I have set them up so that I can automate the process including chilling through a plate chiller. The pipe work and valves is a little complex as I wanted an easy way to back flush the chiller, in case it became blocked. Eventually, I'll automate that as well with feedback from a pressure transducer.

The whole setup is fitted to a frame, the top of the frame has a tipping frame that is attached to the main frame via hinges and welded to the screamer and so at the end of the session I simply tip the outer pot into a wheel barrow and wash it out. This only the hop and break material, the spent grain is winched out and above the outter pot at mash out

I have most of the hardware done

The PID controls the temperature and time.

I have an auberins counter that I have mated to a flow meter and solenoid, I enter the required water, the solenoid opens and the counter counts the pulses over time and a simple calculation and it is measuring volume. Once the volume required is reached, the counter automagically shuts the solenoid. It works, but I am yet to test the accuracy.

Although not as automated as the brewtroller, it is a lot less work to setup.

I purchased a small 240v winch, which will eventually by controlled by a mashout temp alarm. Its job is to automatically remove the 'malt pipe', but that is a project for down the track.

I'll take some pictures this weekend.

I went to TAFE at night and did the welding classes with the apprentices, best move I have made for builiding brewing gear.


----------



## matho

kirem said:


> I hacked around at the beginning of the year trying to get a single vessel to work with brewtroller. In the end, I decided to go back to my trusty auberins programmable PID temp controller and a counter. I have named mine;
> 
> *"The one pot screamer"*
> 
> I was working on a design that eliminated the bottom seal. Basically the 'malt pipe' is a smaller pot that is suspended at the top of the outer vessel (keg). The keg was cut open and left a lip, the pot I used for a 'malt pipe' was flared at the top, I cut a circle out of the bottom and fitted a false bottom to the 'malt pipe'. I was then pumping from the bottom of the outer vessel back over the top into the malt pipe. Probably sounds double dutch, I'll take some pictures.
> 
> I have some 3 way automated valves, I have set them up so that I can automate the process including chilling through a plate chiller. The pipe work and valves is a little complex as I wanted an easy way to back flush the chiller, in case it became blocked. Eventually, I'll automate that as well with feedback from a pressure transducer.
> 
> The whole setup is fitted to a frame, the top of the frame has a tipping frame that is attached to the main frame via hinges and welded to the screamer and so at the end of the session I simply tip the outer pot into a wheel barrow and wash it out. This only the hop and break material, the spent grain is winched out and above the outter pot at mash out
> 
> I have most of the hardware done
> 
> The PID controls the temperature and time.
> 
> I have an auberins counter that I have mated to a flow meter and solenoid, I enter the required water, the solenoid opens and the counter counts the pulses over time and a simple calculation and it is measuring volume. Once the volume required is reached, the counter automagically shuts the solenoid. It works, but I am yet to test the accuracy.
> 
> Although not as automated as the brewtroller, it is a lot less work to setup.
> 
> I purchased a small 240v winch, which will eventually by controlled by a mashout temp alarm. Its job is to automatically remove the 'malt pipe', but that is a project for down the track.
> 
> I'll take some pictures this weekend.
> 
> I went to TAFE at night and did the welding classes with the apprentices, best move I have made for builiding brewing gear.



sounds good kirem, i would definitely like to see pics mate


----------



## Zizzle

kirem said:


> I hacked around at the beginning of the year trying to get a single vessel to work with brewtroller. In the end, I decided to go back to my trusty auberins programmable PID temp controller and a counter. I have named mine;
> 
> *"The one pot screamer"*
> 
> I was working on a design that eliminated the bottom seal. Basically the 'malt pipe' is a smaller pot that is suspended at the top of the outer vessel (keg). The keg was cut open and left a lip, the pot I used for a 'malt pipe' was flared at the top, I cut a circle out of the bottom and fitted a false bottom to the 'malt pipe'. I was then pumping from the bottom of the outer vessel back over the top into the malt pipe. Probably sounds double dutch, I'll take some pictures.



Sweet! Looking forward to the pics.

I have been toying with a new pot-in-pot design for the brewbot.

One that allows a good recirculation but easy removal (no sealing to the bottom of a vessel).

Unfortunately I've got to wait until this latest design competition is over before I modify it. Then we will be packing up the house, going to Aus for 2 months, then back to Colorado in the middle of winter to find a new place to live. So I'll be a while before I get to try it out.


----------



## matho

well I have just finished running the braumiser with the march pump, I have to say i was expecting it to be alot more powerful than the other one but i would say it flows about twice as much, which is perfect. I have use 3/8 hose and the other fittings must have added enough restriction.



here is a quick video of the pump running water thru the malt pipe in manual mode, in the video the pump sounds really loud but its not that loud when your next to it, its a bit louder than the original pump but not by much.

On the subject of the original pump when i pulled it off i got a really strong plastic smell coming off it kinda like a hot garden hose smell.

cheers matho


----------



## stux

So, if I had one of these controllers, what would be required to reprogram the pic chip?


----------



## Filby

matho said:


> well I have just finished running the braumiser with the march pump, I have to say i was expecting it to be alot more powerful than the other one but i would say it flows about twice as much, which is perfect. I have use 3/8 hose and the other fittings must have added enough restriction.
> 
> 
> 
> here is a quick video of the pump running water thru the malt pipe in manual mode, in the video the pump sounds really loud but its not that loud when your next to it, its a bit louder than the original pump but not by much.
> 
> On the subject of the original pump when i pulled it off i got a really strong plastic smell coming off it kinda like a hot garden hose smell.
> 
> cheers matho





Love the Faith No More in the background 

Couple of quick questions. Is the bottom plate permanently fitted to the malt pipe and does the top plate just seal to the edge of the malt pipe by using close tolerances?



Cheers,


Fil


----------



## matho

Stux said:


> So, if I had one of these controllers, what would be required to reprogram the pic chip?



at the end of the PDF i attached the schematic for a LVICSP programmer which will plug into the LVICSP port on the main board, then with the program PICpgm you can write what ever HEX file you want to it. To make a HEX file you need a compiler which will take your program and turn it into hexadecimal so the programmer can write it to the chip. One draw back to the LVICSP programmer that i posted is it needs a parallel port. Thats the beauty of the arduino the board come with a bootloader programmed in the chip which allows you to program the chip via the usb port on the board.

Filby both the top and bottom filter plates just slide into the malt pipe and Im just relying on a close fit.

cheers matho


----------



## seemax

Stux said:


> So, if I had one of these controllers, what would be required to reprogram the pic chip?



Much easier to use an Arduino... the code is freely available if you use a DS18B20 temp sensor. The interface is available for Windoze,OSX,linux and simple to use, plus it only needs USB.

Easy to program your own step mashes ...all you need is a heating element and relay to drive it.


----------



## Malted

Filby said:


> Love the Faith No More in the background
> 
> Couple of quick questions. Is the bottom plate permanently fitted to the malt pipe and does the top plate just seal to the edge of the malt pipe by using close tolerances?
> Cheers,
> Fil



Fil if you want to see a dinky di Braumeister in the flesh, send me a PM.


----------



## matho

Im going to brew tomorrow


----------



## Tony




----------



## kirem

matho said:


> Im going to brew tomorrow



it's not about the brewing, it's about building techo brewing gear


----------



## matho

kirem said:


> it's not about the brewing, it's about building techo brewing gear



that's very true kirem :icon_cheers:


----------



## matho

looks like i still have to work on the top filter, whats happening is that the hole i drilled down the bolt that fits over the center rod is too big and the plate is tilting and not sealing properly



not a big fix, apart from that it is running really well so far just about to finish the first step

cheers matho


----------



## matho

and the boil



just whirlpooling now


----------



## matho

done and dusted, wort in the fermenter, all cleaned up in just over 3 hours 

things i have learnt from today

stop the top filter plate from skewing 

use hop bags to reduce the amount of turb 

make up something so i can rest the malt pipe over the pot for a better sparging method 

and electric boils are so quiet 

cheers matho


----------



## gap

matho said:


> done and dusted, wort in the fermenter, all cleaned up in just over 3 hours
> 
> things i have learnt from today
> 
> stop the top filter plate from skewing
> 
> use hop bags to reduce the amount of turb
> 
> make up something so i can rest the malt pipe over the pot for a better sparging method
> 
> and electric boils are so quiet
> 
> cheers matho



Great stuff Steve,

I am glad it is doing the job for you after all the hard work constructing it.

Regards

Graeme


----------



## MastersBrewery

great work matho the final word I believe will be in the tasting :chug:


----------



## Cocko

matho said:


> looks like i still have to work on the top filter, whats happening is that the hole i drilled down the bolt that fits over the center rod is too big and the plate is tilting and not sealing properly
> 
> 
> 
> not a big fix, apart from that it is running really well so far just about to finish the first step
> 
> cheers matho




Hey Mate, out of interest and nothing to do with designing my own h34r: 

Are you throttling/controlling the march pump flow in anyway? If you could add control, if you haven't would you?

Cheers


----------



## matho

Cocko said:


> Hey Mate, out of interest and nothing to do with designing my own h34r:
> 
> Are you throttling/controlling the march pump flow in anyway? If you could add control, if you haven't would you?
> 
> Cheers



no throttling back at the moment, i am running 3/8 hoses and the hose attachments on the march pump has a ID of about 10mm, i was planning on tapping a thread up the inside of the outlet skin fitting and then put an insert in to reduce the bore, but i don't think i will need it but i might change my mind in the future. If i had more space under the pot a valve would be a good option

cheers steve

edit: being such a quick brew day i had time to take the top filter plate out the the garage and i made up a tube and welded the tube to it, to fix the problem


----------



## matho

MastersBrewery said:


> great work matho the final word I believe will be in the tasting :chug:



the recipe that i brewed today is very well known to me and its tasting good already, that how i knew there was something wrong with the last batch 

it was my easiest brewday ever

cheers matho


----------



## Tanga

Keen to hear how the beer ended up Matho?

Hopefully good as I have all the parts I need for my manual version (or they're in the mail) . Mine is probably closer to Tim F's last iteration though (but with the wort traveling down). Can't wait until she's up and running. Should be pics some time after Christmas.


----------



## matho

yeah tanga all is good, I'm still working on the top filter plate, because during the last tests the plate still bent, worked out that the filter material is too fine and clogs, once it clogs the pump has enough power to push the plate up.
I have some SS flyscreen which I am going to try, also when i get time ill get to Ikea and get some splater guards to try out. I'm also going to get an insert on the outlet of the pump to throtle it back a bit. Ill get it sortd but I haven't had much time lately

cheers matho


----------



## Tanga

Sounds good. Let us know how the S/S mesh goes, as that and the washers are all I'm waiting on. I'm attaching the mesh to the pot with a spring form cake tin with a closed diameter just smaller than the lip of the inner pot (ie malt pipe). Here's hoping this ghetto setup can support 3kg of grain. 

PS. Kmart have splatter guards too.


----------



## matho

I thought I would fix up the ZIP file to include the connection pdf and the proper program so it is not spread across a few pages there is nothing new in this ZIP 

*THE BRAUMISER BUILD*

View attachment The_Braumiser_build.zip


Also for those that don't know I'm in the process making a controller using an arduino I have finished the hardware side of things now i have to start writing up a program for it





cheers matho


----------



## Maheel




----------



## blotto

I now have all the gear to make your Braumiser V1.01

I started the PCB's yesterday but I think I used magazine paper that was too thick and was fairly water resistant, I couldnt get a clean image despite trying three times. After an internet search I have found that thinner paper might be the go, so I have used a catalogue out of todays paper and I hope that will transfer the image better. Unfortunately Im now at work and wont be able to test it until I get home in 9 days. Otherwise I see Jaycar has some paper that is made to do PCB transfers but it's a little more expensive than second hand pamphlet paper out of the news paper. 

Im going to use the BTA16-600C triac to switch a 240V 15A relay which in turn will run the 3000W element so Im hoping that the tiny heat sink that Jaycar sold me will do the job, what do you think matho will the BTA16-600C triac still need a big heat sink?

Cheers 

Snow


----------



## matho

good to hear your having a go, the tracks aren't ever going to be perfect but with a little care they come out ok, I have a PCB etch resistant pen to do touch ups to the tracks before i etch, so it might pay to get one of those.

Probably wouldn't need a very big heatsink if you are going to switch a relay, one thing you have to look out for is I have a switching "window" of 2.5 seconds so it will be ON from all the time to being off in a 2.5 second cycle, so when the temp is getting close to the set temp the relay will be switching on and off a fair bit, it shouldn't be too much of a problem only a bit noisy.

the BTA-16-600c should be able to handle the 12.5 amps if its connected to a heatsink like THIS one. If you look at the spec sheet for it at 13 amps steady state it will be dissipating 15w, now if you start switching the power dissipation goes up so if you pick a heatsink that will give you a temperature rise to 50 deg at an ambient temp of 25 deg (eg a 25 deg rise) then you should still be in the safe zone when switching.

View attachment BTA16_600C.pdf


I have a 1750w element and i use THIS one and it gets to about 65 deg under a hot pot.

you could always go down this route 40 Amp SSR you could jumper out resistor R1 on the output board and wire the SSR inputs straight to the "ac out" terminal block it should have enough volts to drive a SSR

cheers matho


----------



## blotto

Thanks matho

I looked into the *pens* today as I noticed that some of your boards in the build zip looked touched up in sections. Ill be grabbing one on break.
I was thinking that the relay lag might have caused some problems I might look into the heatsink again.

Cool :icon_cheers:


----------



## matho

well im brewing tonight and it looks like top filter plate problem is fixed I'm using an IKEA splater guard and i cut out larger slots in the filter plate





so far so good ill post a pic of the filter plate later

cheers matho


----------



## matho

what it looks like 45 min into the mash




cheers


----------



## blotto

Wicked trying to decide how to make the filter plates has given me a lot to think about, I like the look of the slots you have there it looks to me like the plate will hold its strength well. I have ordered a sheet of ss304: 2mm x 300 x300mm and 1 x ss304: 1.5mm x 300 x300mm but it's not perforated. I'm thinking that if the 2mm is too thick Ill order another 1.5mm sheet as it's only $14.85 from All Things Stainless 

That looks great it's so clear!

Good luck with the rest of your brew night! :beerbang:


----------



## blotto

What sort of crush are you using for your grain matho? The bloke at TWOC in Bibra Lake said to use a very coarse crush when using a braumeister (My brother bought the 50L) 

Cheers and Beers

Tristan


----------



## matho

yeah i took my mill out by about .2mm today to see if that would help as well, the braumiester manual calls for a course crush as well

the brew is going well just coming up to the boil, it looks like i got over 80% extract efficiency

cheers matho


----------



## ForkBoy

Matho et al, your builds have inspired me to set up a 20L system along the same lines - looks great! 

I really want a clean in place setup with as little lifting as possible, so this will be a primary objective in my designs. Leaning toward the BCS-460 for control.

A question on elements though. I have 3 phase power available, and I'm wondering if a low density single 3600W element would be too much power and cause scorching or localised denaturing during the mash? is it better to go 2 x 1800W?

Or is 3600W overkill, and keeping it to 10A/2400W would be fine?


----------



## matho

forkboy,

I made up a spreadsheet that work out temp rise and element wattage and also took into account losses through the top of the pot


View attachment element_sizing.xls


up the top you enter the volume and wattage, don't worry about the percentage loss, then down the bottom enter the intial temp and steps required and right down the bottom enter the opening of your pot.

Now when i use the braumiser I have the lid on until I boil so the losses through the top of the pot are alot lower, with 11.5l of water and 2.2kg of grain i get about 2.2 deg/min temp rise with a 1.75KW element, also after I remove the malt pipe I sparge with about 6l of water so the volume goes up to 15l, so the spreadsheet can't represent all that but it will give you an idea.

A 2.4 kw will work, it will just take a little longer, the good thing about it is you can use it anywhere. A 3.6kw element would make the brewday faster but you will need a dedicated circuit to run it, with the braumiser a simple single infusion 60min mash and a 72 deg 10min mashout step takes me 3.5 hrs from start to completely packed away and very little work in between.

You will not regret making one, brewday's haven't been more easy it's kind of set and forget but you still get the fun of AG brewing.

all the best

matho

edit: Don't forget to post Pic's when your finished


----------



## DJR

Saw the unit in the flesh on the weekend, it's a good little unit and you've done a great job choosing all the components and building.

Next step automated sparge and chill


----------



## ForkBoy

That's great matho! Love the adjustment for the opening...

So it looks like 2.4KW looks fine until you get to bringing 32L up to boil which is over 45 minutes (with no lid). I could use a lid, but we've all suffered the dreaded boil-over, and with an unattended brew that's a likelyhood!

Perhaps I'll start with 2.4KW and add another 1.2KW if it's too weak.


In terms of cleaning, is there anything you would change in your design?


----------



## matho

DJR said:


> Saw the unit in the flesh on the weekend, it's a good little unit and you've done a great job choosing all the components and building.
> 
> Next step automated sparge and chill



hehe I don't want a fully automated brewery, you will have to come over soon and we will do a brew on it mate :icon_cheers: 




ForkBoy said:


> That's great matho! Love the adjustment for the opening...
> 
> So it looks like 2.4KW looks fine until you get to bringing 32L up to boil which is over 45 minutes (with no lid). I could use a lid, but we've all suffered the dreaded boil-over, and with an unattended brew that's a likelyhood!
> 
> Perhaps I'll start with 2.4KW and add another 1.2KW if it's too weak.
> 
> 
> In terms of cleaning, is there anything you would change in your design?



I'm really happy with how easy it is to clean, being able to remove the pump helps alot, as for the element I'm able to just wipe it clean with a sponge, the only thing that is slightly a PITA is where the element coils come close to each other I would try and leave at least a 1cm gap so you can wipe all the element clean

cheers matho


----------



## blotto

I have a 3k element in my 50L pot that I plan on turning into a braumiser when I get the time, if I get the time :unsure: 

I did a BIAB in the pot today and it got 35L of wort to a nice gentle rolling boil no worries  One of those copper hoods that Braumeister sells would help get it boiling a bit faster but I'm happy with how its going at the moment.


----------



## ForkBoy

Hi all,

thermalproducts.com.au say they can supply a 2400W element with a 90 degree bend in the "no bend" zone ($94+$15 delivery). That will create a really low profile for the element and reduce the minimum wort required.

Now, am I pushing it a bit running 2400W + march pump + brewtroller off a 10A circuit? They're next step down in off-the-shelf elements is 2000W, which is fair step down.

Cheers


----------



## matho

nah you should be right, a march pump runs at 0.7 amps and the brewtroller would be almost next to nothing at 240v, when your mashing the element will not be on all the time and when it is for the boil the pump will be off, the power point should be able to handle, the wiring will be and the circuit protection, if its a CB will most likely be rated at 20A and if its a fuse it should be rated at 16A, with the element turning on and off with the PID your not running 10A continuous. All this is assuming that you have 240 at the power point, it will me more likely some where in between 220v and 240v.

cheers


----------



## blotto

Yeah I have my 3000w element on a 10a circuit, the cheep cable I got from the big green shed was getting a little warm so I'm going to beef that up but you'll be right for sure! Just be aware that if that circuit happens to be on with the kitchen or any other circuit that might be loaded up you could trip the breaker. Just reset and avoid running the kettle until your boil is done


----------



## AlexL

Well I had my first brewday today on my new system (5 months after I started the build).
Everything went exactly to plan, which surpirsed me! 
I brewed a Dr Smurtos Golden Ale with 3kg grains and 18L starting water - I probably ended up with around 8-9L of wort, which seems a little low to me. 
I'm still having issues with my Brewtroller setup. The first board I received had a short in the outputs and the second board won't pick up my temperature sensors. As such this was a completely manual brew with only on/off control on the element which is probably why I lost so much liquid during the boil. I tasted the wort while hot and it was quite bitter, my initial hop addition calculations my have been off. I haven't measured the FG yet but will do so before pitching and adjust with extra water if needed. 

Things I would do differently:
I would try and source a SS pot instead of the aluminium pot I have.
I would spend more time bending my element (with a pipe bender!) so that it sits lower in the pot allowing for smaller batches if needed.

A huge thanks to matho for his help with the thermowell.


----------



## matho

AlexL said:


> Well I had my first brewday today on my new system (5 months after I started the build).
> Everything went exactly to plan, which surpirsed me!
> I brewed a Dr Smurtos Golden Ale with 3kg grains and 18L starting water - I probably ended up with around 8-9L of wort, which seems a little low to me.
> I'm still having issues with my Brewtroller setup. The first board I received had a short in the outputs and the second board won't pick up my temperature sensors. As such this was a completely manual brew with only on/off control on the element which is probably why I lost so much liquid during the boil. I tasted the wort while hot and it was quite bitter, my initial hop addition calculations my have been off. I haven't measured the FG yet but will do so before pitching and adjust with extra water if needed.
> 
> Things I would do differently:
> I would try and source a SS pot instead of the aluminium pot I have.
> I would spend more time bending my element (with a pipe bender!) so that it sits lower in the pot allowing for smaller batches if needed.
> 
> A huge thanks to matho for his help with the thermowell.



looks good Alex, I had the same issue with bending the element myself, next time I'm going to ask if the can bend it for me 
its a bugger about the brewtroller, you'll get it working no doubt, I have been looking at the brewtroller over the last couple of week, its a unit that is packed full of features.
By the way what is wrong with the ali pot?

again good job cheers steve


----------



## AlexL

The only concern I have with the Alu pot is long term galvanic corrosion as I'm using brass and SS fittings.
The DIY elements seem like a no-brainer but it's easier said than done to bend an element in a neat circle - I would have also chosen a shorter element as I have it overlapping a third time for about 10cm. However I might try and fix this by putting in a couple of S-bends. I have seen a Braumeister element and it looks pretty schmick.
All the features on the Brewtroller was the reason I chose it - the support from Jeremiah has been great (he sent me the second board free of charge). I think I've been unlucky with the boards as most of the other guys are having no problems with it.


----------



## claypot

Tony said:


> I fully understand people wanting a hand made one...... they do look the goods...... but for those who want a ready bought one....... i just ordered one of these for mine.
> 
> http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...2cc7484ccf182f0
> 
> 30 programable steps, dual alarm relays, Analogue output to run one of these:
> 
> http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...;products_id=30
> 
> That puppy is good for 9600w @ 240v and there is a 25A good for 6000w @ 250v for $15
> 
> Going to fit it to one of these:
> 
> http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...products_id=224
> 
> cost about $150 delivered.
> 
> They have temp probes, flashing alarm buzzers ( i ordered one of these too  ) and other cool stuff.
> 
> cheers



Hey Tony,
I am looking to start a build shortly, and really like the idea of the ramp/ soak.
I have noticed on a few American forums thay reckon that these are no good for the boil as they don't have a manual function.
I only know enough to be dangerous about PID's, but would of thought you could still use them for the boil?
Or is it that in manual you can control the boil vigor more finely?
Any one got any feed back? 
Thanks and Regards,
Clayton.


----------



## seamad

Clayton, i use one on my system. I have a crown urn( pictures in blackdog brewhouse on this forum...should of put them here). I did have the non ramp one at first and liked the % output to control the boil, however i find the ramp model works fine. My boil is between 98/99 C, ( live on a mountain) so i just set it for 99, urn still cycles on/ off but decent boil.
Not as much control but works on my system + ramp/ soak feature makes up for it. The basic pid is pretty cheap so could have both in the control box and switch at boil.
Cheers
Sean


----------



## claypot

seamad said:


> Clayton, i use one on my system. I have a crown urn( pictures in blackdog brewhouse on this forum...should of put them here). I did have the non ramp one at first and liked the % output to control the boil, however i find the ramp model works fine. My boil is between 98/99 C, ( live on a mountain) so i just set it for 99, urn still cycles on/ off but decent boil.
> Not as much control but works on my system + ramp/ soak feature makes up for it. The basic pid is pretty cheap so could have both in the control box and switch at boil.
> Cheers
> Sean



Hi Sean,
Thanks mate, just checked out your thread, awsome set up mate well done. I'm on night shift at the mo so have be reading so many different posts and sites that it has all blended into one I'm afraid!
Looks like the ramp soak PID is the go, and as you said a basic PID is cheap so I think I will go with ramp soak for mash and second PID and probe for boil.
Thanks again mate.
Cheers Clayton.


----------



## claypot

Matho,
Well done mate, this is such a sweet set up. 
Thanks so much for giving up so much time, to help out people like me put something together.
Thanks again mate, nice one.

Cheers Clayton.


----------



## matho

well I have been brewing on the braumiser for a little while now and there are a few things i would like to change with the program, all to do with timing. I would like to change how the pump rest works, at the moment it only turns off when the PID output is in the negative, as soon as the pid calls for heat the pump turns on which sometimes makes the pump rests very short. I would like to change it so that when the pump rest starts, it stops for 2 min or when the temperature error gets too large. The other thing is when the timers are started, at the moment they start when the temp gets within 1.5 deg of the set temp, I'm going to change it to when it gets to the set temp. A part from these small issues I'm really very happy with how it has worked out

cheers steve


----------



## Muscovy_333

matho said:


> well I have been brewing on the braumiser for a little while now and there are a few things i would like to change with the program, all to do with timing. I would like to change how the pump rest works, at the moment it only turns off when the PID output is in the negative, as soon as the pid calls for heat the pump turns on which sometimes makes the pump rests very short. I would like to change it so that when the pump rest starts, it stops for 2 min or when the temperature error gets too large. The other thing is when the timers are started, at the moment they start when the temp gets within 1.5 deg of the set temp, I'm going to change it to when it gets to the set temp. A part from these small issues I'm really very happy with how it has worked out
> 
> cheers steve



Matho, 

word on the street was that you were puting together build notes?

I have been collecting bits and pieces for my own 'Muscmeister' build, although at this point i'm only working on the manual version. 

I have a cracking 75 litre ss pot and a 19litre bigW pot malt pipe. Early days, but I am happy to have stumbled across your build...I'm a long way from your beast, but hapily inspred none the less


'


----------



## matho

Muscovy said:


> Matho,
> 
> word on the street was that you were puting together build notes?
> 
> I have been collecting bits and pieces for my own 'Muscmeister' build, although at this point i'm only working on the manual version.
> 
> I have a cracking 75 litre ss pot and a 19litre bigW pot malt pipe. Early days, but I am happy to have stumbled across your build...I'm a long way from your beast, but hapily inspred none the less
> 
> 
> '



hey muscovy, if you click on the braumiser word in my sig it will take you the the post where the ZIP file for the build is, if you have any questions feel free to ask

cheers steve


----------



## Muscovy_333

matho said:


> hey muscovy, if you click on the braumiser word in my sig it will take you the the post where the ZIP file for the build is, if you have any questions feel free to ask
> 
> cheers steve




Love your work!
Thanks heaps Steve, I'm just in the process of working drawings to make the most universal effiecient beast i can!

Will keep you posted on teh build when i finally get started


----------



## Tony

Im still gathering equopment for mine. I have the ramp soak controller..... and i thought it had manual mode, will have to check, but geee id like to get a Micrologix 1100. coupled with a 2 x AI 2 x AO card..... it would be perfect!

I could run temperature control of the inner and outer ring seperate 

I would have infinate control over programing of pump cycling, the works.

And you can get them for $300 to $400 on ebay


----------



## browndog

matho said:


> well I have been brewing on the braumiser for a little while now and there are a few things i would like to change with the program, all to do with timing. I would like to change how the pump rest works, at the moment it only turns off when the PID output is in the negative, as soon as the pid calls for heat the pump turns on which sometimes makes the pump rests very short. I would like to change it so that when the pump rest starts, it stops for 2 min or when the temperature error gets too large. The other thing is when the timers are started, at the moment they start when the temp gets within 1.5 deg of the set temp, I'm going to change it to when it gets to the set temp. A part from these small issues I'm really very happy with how it has worked out
> 
> cheers steve




Matho, I would assume that you have already thought about this, but what if you had some decent insulation to keep heat loss down?

cheers

Browndog


----------



## AlexL

Second brewday on the new system yesterday - who would've thought all grain could be this easy!
I have also tasted the results from the first batch - and while good there is certainly room for improvement. I didn't adjust hop additions for no chilling which I have done this time around. 

One thing I did notice was that my pump 'punches' a hole in the grain bed. I was wondering if anyone else has come across this problem? I've been eyeing off an empty tuna can that with a bit of dremel work could be used as a 'tophat' to redirect the flow parallel with the base of the malt pipe.

Alex


----------



## troopa

Hey Tony I thought Omron or schnieder a few years ago where selling a small PLC for about the $300-$400 range with 5 or so I/Os one being temp and network hook up too 
buggered if i could remember the number though could something like that be used instead 
Im no electrician though and its been years since ive played with this stuff

Edit i think it may have been the Omron Zen "Maybe"


----------



## matho

browndog said:


> Matho, I would assume that you have already thought about this, but what if you had some decent insulation to keep heat loss down?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Hey BD, I have thought about it but I like shiny stuff, I think its more of a program problem than a physical one 




AlexL said:


> Second brewday on the new system yesterday - who would've thought all grain could be this easy!
> I have also tasted the results from the first batch - and while good there is certainly room for improvement. I didn't adjust hop additions for no chilling which I have done this time around.
> 
> One thing I did notice was that my pump 'punches' a hole in the grain bed. I was wondering if anyone else has come across this problem? I've been eyeing off an empty tuna can that with a bit of dremel work could be used as a 'tophat' to redirect the flow parallel with the base of the malt pipe.
> 
> Alex



Alex good to hear its going well, once its sorted the brewday is so easy isn't it, I haven't noticed any holes being punched in my grain bed but i do have fine filter material on the bottom filter which would disperse the flow fairly well. 

cheers steve


----------



## Tony

Like anything i build brew related, its going to take some time, but its starting to take form:







I dont think i will use the pot, im going to get a SS vessel custom made with a solid 3 or 5mm thick base that wont warp once a few holes get drilled in it. I dont like the looks of the base of this pot..... looks weak.

I have done some thinking about temperature control on this beast. I want the ultimate in flexability and programability, so im thinking of getting an Allen Bradley Micrologix 1100 (has ethernet ) and a couple expansion modules, one for PT100 inputs, and one for analogue outputs.

Due to the fact that i will be running dual heating elements with one in the malt tube, and one outside the malt tube, im thinking of measuring the temperature in the malt tube and outside seperately, and controling the elements seperately with dual SSR's driven by the PLC.

Code and program wise, the flaxability is endless. I can set up program files for all my different types of beers and mash schedules, and just run the one i want on the day. 

Anyway... now to get hold of the PLC and heat elements.

cheers


----------



## DJR

Nice looking rig there Tony!

I wonder if you could just weld some extra support into the bottom of the pot/base? It looks fairly well constructed otherwise


----------



## Tony

Mmmm i may just have a go with the pot and see if it works. If it wont seal, i will ditch it.


----------



## SJW

Tony said:


> Mmmm i may just have a go with the pot and see if it works. If it wont seal, i will ditch it.


Hey Tony, I have not read the entire thread, and I am sure it has been mentioned before, but would'nt it be cheaper and easier just to buy a 50 Litre Braumeister? 
I sold the 3v and have a BM. I wish I did it years ago. Brew day is a breeze now and I can replicate beers over and over with ease.

Steve


----------



## doon

I guess it would but people love to build shit! I am no where near as handy so just bought one!


----------



## NickB

I certainly wouldn't have thought it was cheaper to buy the BM, especially if you work in an industry that has access to parts....


----------



## doon

Guess that's the catch. Cheap access to parts and getting it right the first time so costs stay low


----------



## Tony

doon said:


> I guess it would but people love to build shit!



Thats me 



NickB said:


> I certainly wouldn't have thought it was cheaper to buy the BM, especially if you work in an industry that has access to parts....



Thats me too h34r: 

I recon i can do it with a PLC, SSR's all SS parts, March 815, dual elements with 4800W total power for under $1500 

2K with plate chiller and custom SS vessel

And it will be made with parts i can repair or replace myself easily and cheaply, I will have dual zone PID temperature control.

And i just like to build shit


----------



## Maheel

question for the brau-brewers 

#1 when you load the malt pipe what sort of head space is in the pipe when the malt is dry 

#2 once "wet" is the malt pipe always "full" exerting pressure on the filters 

or do you put pressure on the malt prior to wetting with a screw down / adjustable top filter ?

thanks 
Maheel


----------



## Tony

Mate this thread is more for tight arses who build copies of the origional.

There are a couple other threads more technically inclined somewhere i think


----------



## doon

Yeah I was trying to work out if he was talking to original or clone users.


----------



## Tony

Thinking of getting one of these to make into a domed lid.

Cut out the pots lid and screw this on, put a bit of 3 or 4 inch SS pipe in the top as a short chimney and it should increase my power efficiency 

http://www.kitchenwaredirect.com.au/Bakewa...xing-Bowl-17-0L


----------



## Maheel

Tony said:


> Mate this thread is more for tight arses who build copies of the origional.
> 
> There are a couple other threads more technically inclined somewhere i think



Hey tony i am as tight as the frogs ars# mate  
i have an idea i am toying with instead of going 3V... 1V just seems easy to work with
i am doing a bit of mocking up in the shed but was unsure of malt pipe workings.

my questions could be to either genuine or "clone" users i guess 

i will go look on u-tube to see how the brau's work


----------



## SJW

Maheel said:


> Hey tony i am as tight as the frogs ars# mate
> i have an idea i am toying with instead of going 3V... 1V just seems easy to work with
> i am doing a bit of mocking up in the shed but was unsure of malt pipe workings.
> 
> my questions could be to either genuine or "clone" users i guess
> 
> i will go look on u-tube to see how the brau's work


Dont bother looking on YouTube. There is one twit on there from the US who has made loads of videos of his BM, and even for a yank this guy is dumb as shit.
This dickhead has no idea how the brew process works and therefore has a very limited understanding of how the BM works.
I might record my next brew day, and post it just to show how easy and versitile these things are.

steve


----------



## doon

Would that be good old yambor44? 

I was going to film my brewing but just didn't seem like I could make it interesting enough. The brew day is so simple there is nothing to film really


----------



## Maheel

Maheel said:


> question for the brau-brewers
> 
> #1 when you load the malt pipe what sort of head space is in the pipe when the malt is dry
> 
> #2 once "wet" is the malt pipe always "full" exerting pressure on the filters
> 
> or do you put pressure on the malt prior to wetting with a screw down / adjustable top filter ?
> 
> thanks
> Maheel



can you give me some ideas about ^^ thanks  

but i now see you bring the water up to temp then load the malt pipe... so i guess just #2 ?


----------



## doon

Yep water up to temp then malt pipe in and dough in. The filter has about 2 inches of movement up and down middle rod when pump starts flowing it moves up until it hits cross bar


----------



## Maheel

this is a very crap drawing of the idea i am toying with mocking up in the shed 

vessel is about 50L looking to 25L brews 
electric heating 2200w CB elemnt and boosted by my handheld immersion heater thing

the malt pipe would be a 20L stock pot attached the tube 
filters in top and bottom (splatter guard type?) 


fluid travels up the central pipe and comes out the tube via cuts or drilled holes 
pumps out through filter back into pump and back into malt pipe 

central pipe disconnects at base via a coupling i am mucking about with but need to test on pump under a little pressure 
the whole malt pipe and tube would then lift out for the boil 
(i assume the grain puts the malt pipe under a little pressure ?) 



thoughts ? bad idea?


----------



## Tony

Maheel..... the falsies in the malt tube dont "pressurise" the mash... they just hold the grain in there. All the wort is pumped up from the bottom, through the base falsie, the grain and then the top falsie, and overflows to be sucked back up and returned back the the malt tube again.

The malt tube in a Brau unit actually clamps down and seals on the base.

With your drawing, i can guarantee you the wort will take the path of least resistance back th the pump inlet, and that wont be up through the mash, which is what you want.


----------



## matho

Tony said:


> Like anything i build brew related, its going to take some time, but its starting to take form:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think i will use the pot, im going to get a SS vessel custom made with a solid 3 or 5mm thick base that wont warp once a few holes get drilled in it. I dont like the looks of the base of this pot..... looks weak.
> 
> I have done some thinking about temperature control on this beast. I want the ultimate in flexability and programability, so im thinking of getting an Allen Bradley Micrologix 1100 (has ethernet ) and a couple expansion modules, one for PT100 inputs, and one for analogue outputs.
> 
> Due to the fact that i will be running dual heating elements with one in the malt tube, and one outside the malt tube, im thinking of measuring the temperature in the malt tube and outside seperately, and controling the elements seperately with dual SSR's driven by the PLC.
> 
> Code and program wise, the flaxability is endless. I can set up program files for all my different types of beers and mash schedules, and just run the one i want on the day.
> 
> Anyway... now to get hold of the PLC and heat elements.
> 
> cheers


shiny stainless steel.

I like 

looks good mate


----------



## SJW

doon said:


> Would that be good old yambor44?
> 
> I was going to film my brewing but just didn't seem like I could make it interesting enough. The brew day is so simple there is nothing to film really


Yes Doon, you are 100% correct there, it would be a sure cure for insomnia, but when I was looking to by a BM all I could find was that twit making an ass of himself. Not a real good add for BM.


----------



## Cocko

Tony said:


> Like anything i build brew related, its going to take some time, but its starting to take form:



So what, are you doing a 98L build Tony?

The_ 'Brewmonster'_

Cheers


----------



## doon

Yeah I don't think I watched more then 2 minutes of his videos!


----------



## Maheel

thanks Tony 

just to clarify 

the bottom of the malt pipe needs to seal against the bottom while in use, then once lifted it needs to drain?


----------



## Tony

Cocko said:


> So what, are you doing a 98L build Tony?
> 
> The_ 'Brewmonster'_
> 
> Cheers



Yep :super: 

I shall name it....... the Bulls Head Braumonster.

Shall it consist of nothing but Stainless Steel (except where electrics and pumps etc are needed )

Shall it look of awsomeness

Shall it brew beer that will turn Charlie Sheen into a virgin with a single sip 

i have the pannel mounted and started some SS plumbing with the pump..... just in planning stage ATM.

cheers


----------



## Tony

I tell ya....... i smell cutting compound and hot Stainless Steel.

I have SS swarf stuck in my thongs

my bloods up........ time to start hunting more parts


----------



## Cocko

Tony said:


> Yep :super:
> 
> I shall name it....... the Bulls Head Braumonster.
> 
> Shall it consist of nothing but Stainless Steel (except where electrics and pumps etc are needed  )
> 
> Shall it look of awsomeness
> 
> Shall it brew beer that will turn Charlie Sheen into a virgin with a single sip
> 
> i have the pannel mounted and started some SS plumbing with the pump..... just in planning stage ATM.
> 
> cheers




Shall this be absolutely brutal!

Please keep posting as it updates mate!

the Bulls Head Braumonster is a lurking....


----------



## Tony

I have also ordered some big SS mixing bowls to make a $20 dome top......... Its gunna be AWSOME!


----------



## iralosavic

Hole saws ahoy! What a hobby home brewing is. We get to design, fabricate and build our own equipment and then use it to turn water into beer. I sometimes wonder which stage is the most enjoyable...


----------



## Cocko

iralosavic said:


> Hole saws ahoy! What a hobby home brewing is. We get to design, fabricate and build our own equipment and then use it to turn water into beer. I sometimes wonder which stage is the most enjoyable...



I agree mate.

The fabrication is so much fun, then you use the equipment and the reward in doing so is awesome...

AND you get BEER!

Its farking rad.


----------



## Tony

Yeha i like the look of hte bought ones..... and i could probably afford one, but where is the fun is just buying one?

I have a brewery that makes great beer, and i will use it till the Braumonster is complete.

cheers


----------



## Cocko

Tony said:


> Braumonster



F*ck yes! :super:


----------



## Edak

Hi Guys, 

I thought since some of you were looking at having PLC controllers that I would share some info about controllers that are commonly used in my industry.

The Click PLC from automationdirect.

They start at $69AUD for a really basic device, are expandable and as far as I am told, quite reliable.
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overvi...rick)/PLC_Units

Let me know if any of you have used them or intend on using them. There is a bunch of info online about using these for PID.


----------



## stux

Tony said:


>



I'm thinking some insulation ala beerbelly,





Might go down well , might obscure the shiny tho


----------



## Malted

Tony said:


>


I can't quite tell if you are using Union Fittings in there already (I think it looks like I can see two? One horizontal and one vertical?). The BM's have these joining the pumps to the base of the pot and I can understand why they are useful.

I found 1/2" union fittings cheap on eBay (not the picture from eBay)




They are 1/2" NPT in 304 SS, $5.98 USD (including postage) from China. Here's the link: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NPT-1-2-304-sta...=item1e6c3a6d32

Seppos want $10.35 + $7.12 post USD (obviously a higher grade of casting with the American ones though, they look prettier) 




Tony said:


> Yeha i like the look of hte bought ones..... and i could probably afford one, but where is the fun is just buying one?


Yeah I DID buy a big one but now want to build a little one for the fun of it! :lol:


----------



## Edak

Stux said:


> I'm thinking some insulation ala beerbelly,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might go down well , might obscure the shiny tho



Is that black foam on the beerbelly unit? I might be able to get my hands on some of that.


----------



## Malted

Edak said:


> Is that black foam on the beerbelly unit? I might be able to get my hands on some of that.


That product and others are readily available from the same source that BB used to source it from:
http://www.clarkrubber.com.au/rubber-and-f...#Nitrile-Rubber


----------



## iralosavic

I just used a camping mat (probaby should have sussed out clark rubber first, but it does the trick). Just remember that at such large volumes, it already takes a fair while for the wort to cool enough for the currents to disappate. Thick insulation will prolong this further. I'm currently trying to figure out how to make mine quicky removable - kind of regret my sight glass now, as that is the only obstacle. If I ever move to multi-vessle, my e-keggle (with sight guage) will become the HLT and my boil pot will NOT have a sight, but then again it probably won't have insulation either haha


----------



## Tony

Edak said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I thought since some of you were looking at having PLC controllers that I would share some info about controllers that are commonly used in my industry.
> 
> The Click PLC from automationdirect.
> 
> They start at $69AUD for a really basic device, are expandable and as far as I am told, quite reliable.
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overvi...rick)/PLC_Units
> 
> Let me know if any of you have used them or intend on using them. There is a bunch of info online about using these for PID.



I have been trolling the net for AB PLC's and working as a Control System Engineer..... i know what they cost. The ones on evilbay from china are well priced but im still up for $800+ for what i want. I have done some thinking and i do want to use PLC. but was going to start a search (having only ever used high end gear) for cheaper PLC's. These sound good.

Do you know what the programing software is like. I have the AB software and know it back to front which is why i wanted to go that way.



Stux said:


> I'm thinking some insulation ala beerbelly,
> 
> Might go down well , might obscure the shiny tho



I was thinking i may have some SS sheets cut and folded to make a square lagging box to go around the pot. fill the inside with insulation and it is still all shiney 



Malted said:


> I can't quite tell if you are using Union Fittings in there already (I think it looks like I can see two? One horizontal and one vertical?). The BM's have these joining the pumps to the base of the pot and I can understand why they are useful.



Yeah mate.... it has a SS barrel union at both points of the pump for easy removal. You dont need it often but when you do.... ALL PRAISE THE BARREL UNION 
f
here is the new "tightarse" dome top for the Braumonster. cost $13 

now to find a 4 inch long flanged piece of SS tube about 3 inches dia to make a chimney, and boil efficiency will be improved a lot!

anyone know of a suitible item?


----------



## Malted

Tony said:


> now to find a 4 inch long flanged piece of SS tube about 3 inches dia to make a chimney, and boil efficiency will be improved a lot!
> 
> anyone know of a suitible item?



What about 2 1/2" to 2" diameter tri clover adapater? Almost fits the bill and is inexpensive. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tri-Clover-Conc...=item4ab486fef4

or something like this 3", 3 bolt flange, not exactly a cheap option though http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pypes-Stainless...=item564900a19b


----------



## browndog

The star wars nerd in me is screaming for you to paint that up like R2D2.


----------



## Malted

browndog said:


> The star wars nerd in me is screaming for you to paint that up like R2D2.




+1


----------



## NickB

Looks awesome Tony!


----------



## matho

bahahah browndog I was just searching for an image for r2d2 to post because I thought the same thing


----------



## stux

Malted said:


> +1



R2 Beer 2


----------



## stux

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=56289


----------



## Tony

R2D2.....hehe love it.....Buuuuuuuuuuuuut its not going to happen


----------



## iralosavic

How are you going to ensure the chimney stays put/seals at the outer edes during the boil? It looks as though its balancing there and could easily be knocked off/let steam through the sides.


----------



## Tony

Ahhhhhh you see the Ss mixing bowl is just sitting inside the pots lid at this stage. It will get a gasket and screw down, and will seal as good as the pot lid sits on the pot. 

Im not interested in a preasure seal here..... just to close it off a bit to reduce power use.

How many micros have you seen with an open top kettle? you need a lot more power with the lid off.

Spidel wouldnt sell one for the origional unit ($450+) if it didnt work.

cheers


----------



## iralosavic

I'm certainly not disputing the function of a convex chimney! They definitely reduce power loss significantly, meaning a stronger boil for less kw/h. And with minimal condensate return (DMS) too. I was thinking of taking this path with my underpowered ekeggle, but thirstyboy kindly pointed out that floating a pie/cake tin on the surface of the wort achieves the same thing (but with zero condensation). I'd build a chimney still, bit rolling SS sheet would just just mean waiting longer before brewing again. Regarding sealing it, well all I meant was that just sitting there, the vigour of the boil may make it rattle and fall off or let excessive steam escape. A lid style seal bolted on is perfectly adequate as far as I'm concerned! Even not bolted would be fine with a gasket keeping it in place with friction resistance.


----------



## Tony

iralosavic said:


> but thirstyboy kindly pointed out that floating a pie/cake tin on the surface of the wort achieves the same thing (but with zero condensation).



 good old TB hey....... and he is probably right, but if you were something pretty going to the Melbourn Cup, would you want a flash hat or a inverted cake tin on your head  

plus..... the brau units have a center rod that will kind of stuff that idea


----------



## iralosavic

Tony said:


> good old TB hey....... and he is probably right, but if you were something pretty going to the Melbourn Cup, would you want a flash hat or a inverted cake tin on your head
> 
> plus..... the brau units have a center rod that will kind of stuff that idea



I think it's great that such a highly experienced (even professional) brewer can still be so down to earth and solution focused (ghetto comes to mind) despite owning and/or being surrounded by superior equipment on a daily basis. Most people in the same situation would find it difficult to accept a floating pie tin as a solution in their own system, much less be willing to share a video evidencing it doing as he claims. 

Anyhow, I would prefer a chimney (as I'm more materialistic and aesthetics driven than Thirstyboy, [which, again, is to his credit]!), but I'm just too busy and poor to make it happen soon enough to justify it. 

I'm liking the look of your build so far and will be lurking around to see how it progresses.


----------



## Edak

Tony said:


> I have been trolling the net for AB PLC's and working as a Control System Engineer..... i know what they cost. The ones on evilbay from china are well priced but im still up for $800+ for what i want. I have done some thinking and i do want to use PLC. but was going to start a search (having only ever used high end gear) for cheaper PLC's. These sound good.
> 
> Do you know what the programing software is like. I have the AB software and know it back to front which is why i wanted to go that way.



Hi Tony, 

I am not familiar with AB software, but if you are curious about the software there are programming examples and such you can look at the link below, which is the online user manual, under the getting started section there are training videos so you can get the feel of how the software works.

http://www.aboutplcs.com/click/Free_Softwa...tware_help.html


----------



## Edak

I really want to get started on building one of these. I have the electronics and programming know-how for the control, but have ZERO experience with welding.

I have a budget of about $500 to do this and live in Melbourne. I am looking for advise of what vessels to use that I can actually get for a decent price that would be suitable. I looked at Keg-King's catalogue and I must say that I am impressed with their range, but the cost of the stainless alone will blow my budget!! 

Thinking 20L batches, I don't really care how ghetto it looks (cough cough may need to use a keg).

Any good local advice?


----------



## Malted

Edak said:


> I am looking for advise of what vessels to use that I can actually get for a decent price that would be suitable.



(1) Since the device will have a heater in it a thin walled pot is fine. 
(2) Since you will be drilling holes in the bottom of the pot, you probably don't want an expensive heavy one that has sandwiched layers of alumium or copper coated in stainless. You would probably want a pot that has a single thin layer of stainless steel on it's bum. 
(3) Ha easy, get some of the cheapest pots you can find from an Asian or Oriental grocery store!


----------



## matho

I concur with malted go to as many Asian or Indian groceries as you can look up the back for large pots, I picked up a 65l pot for $68 in sydney's chinatown, its thin stainless but it hasn't rusted yet . With the bottom of the pot if you put a strap of decent thickness stainless you wont have to worry about a thin bottom, just make sure you take your time with drilling out the holes, get yourself a step drill or even better a 22mm hole punch. 

cheers


----------



## matho

Here is some info on getting the stainless steel sheet, the 2mm stuff I used was sourced from a scrap metal bin, if you have access to one I would recommend looking in it from time to time, if not, go to a metal merchant and ask where the off- cut bin is, this is where they put metal off cuts and [email protected]#k ups and sell it at discounted price, the legs of mine came from a sheet sourced fro a metal merchant. Now if you don't want to spend time trying to find cheaper stainless steel you can just go and buy it Blackwoods sells this for $10.40 a metre and allthingsstainless sells sheet at very reasonable prices. 

All the cutting I did was with a 10 year old $30 4" angle grinder using 1mm stainless steel cutting disc's, if you do all the cutting and bending then take it to the local stainless steel fabrication shop the cost of welding would be too much especially if you clean up the welds yourself. For the record if I was going to make another one I would use four legs instead of three.

cheers steve


----------



## troopa

Hey Tony im sure someone up the hunter has a little AB PLC sitting around somewhere doing nothing.. i know Warkworth run em 

U could always troll places like greys online for C&C machinary thats going cheap and then rape all the gear you need and scrap metal the rest ??


----------



## Edak

Just went down to Keg King and boy do they have a lot of good gear!

If only it were a simple task to get a keg to turn into a suitable pot for a braumeister (or braumiser)!

$100 SS 50L keggles with hole in the top and ball valve.

It probably could be converted, but at what cost?


----------



## Tony

mmmm id say a flat bottom pot would be easier to work with...... but the conical base of a keg could work.


----------



## Tony

Troopa said:


> Hey Tony im sure someone up the hunter has a little AB PLC sitting around somewhere doing nothing..



 i know plenty of places B) 

I was looking at AB SLC's last night....... they are physically bigger, but cheap! Just need to find one with the card configuration im after.


----------



## Edak

Tony said:


> mmmm id say a flat bottom pot would be easier to work with...... but the conical base of a keg could work.



Agreed, it would mean that the placement of the malt pipe would have to be quite accurate so as not to leak.

When I was there I saw a large (100L?) BM ripoff that was sent to them for testing. It was a sample/one-off and needed a fair bit of work as it was built with some non-stainless fittings (who was the idiot who designed it?). They were going to see if they could fix it up, test it and then maybe get rid of it.

The right offer might change their mind and have them sell it off cheap, though I could be wrong. It had the nice copper colour on the vessel and the dome-vented lid.


----------



## Edak

okay, so the most compatible pots that I can find "off the shelf" for a decent price are:
19L BigW pot (322mm dia x 260 H) (I already have this)
50L Handy Imports (425mm dia x 400 H) 
http://www.handyimports.com.au/50l-industr...epan-p-294.html ($134 inc shipping)

GryphonBrewing pump ($37) + shipping

U-bend-it coil or similar if I can get it cheaper, looking at 2400W

Tell me how I am going so far!


----------



## matho

Edak said:


> okay, so the most compatible pots that I can find "off the shelf" for a decent price are:
> 19L BigW pot (322mm dia x 260 H) (I already have this)
> 50L Handy Imports (425mm dia x 400 H)
> http://www.handyimports.com.au/50l-industr...epan-p-294.html ($134 inc shipping)
> 
> GryphonBrewing pump ($37) + shipping
> 
> U-bend-it coil or similar if I can get it cheaper, looking at 2400W
> 
> Tell me how I am going so far!



sounds like your on track, should make a good unit, what is the max gravity and max volume are you aiming for


----------



## booargy

U-bend-it 2250W element $95+freight


----------



## Muscovy_333

booargy said:


> U-bend-it 2250W element $95+freight




Who is selling them?


----------



## dmac80

Edak said:


> okay, so the most compatible pots that I can find "off the shelf" for a decent price are:
> 19L BigW pot (322mm dia x 260 H) (I already have this)
> 50L Handy Imports (425mm dia x 400 H)
> http://www.handyimports.com.au/50l-industr...epan-p-294.html ($134 inc shipping)
> 
> GryphonBrewing pump ($37) + shipping
> 
> U-bend-it coil or similar if I can get it cheaper, looking at 2400W
> 
> Tell me how I am going so far!



Looking good! I'd suggest getting the manufacturer to put 90 degree bends at either end in the no bend zone so as to get the profile of the element lower in the pot, maybe even get them to bend the whole lot for you. I made one with a keg and 19 l big w pot and i have the 2400 w which does the job, but i wouldn't go any lower. It will be much easier to construct with the flat bottom pot, keg was a pain in the arse. The best thing about the 19 l pot is that if you need a bit more height out of your malt pipe, just get another one, cut the handles off and slide it in the other one. They have tapered sides and make for a snug fit. 

Once you get it working you won't look back. Makes brewdays so much easier, and quicker. 

I've got a march 809 for pumping duties, does the job well. Not sure whether the gryphon pump will push the wort up through the mash or not, but it's not expensive and there's only one way to find out!

One other thing, make sure your filter plates are nice and strong. I was using a 30 cm kettle false bottom as the top mash filter, which worked for 2 brews, but bucked under the pressure during the third. I did it a little differently to matho in that i used cooking splatter guards (fine stainless mesh) as my fine filters, not the hop bag material.

Hope this helps

Cheers
Dan


----------



## booargy

Muscovy said:


> Who is selling them?



DIY elements
http://www.thermalelectric.com.au/downloads.php


----------



## matho

dmac said:


> !One other thing, make sure your filter plates are nice and strong. I was using a 30 cm kettle false bottom as the top mash filter, which worked for 2 brews, but bucked under the pressure during the third. I did it a little differently to matho in that i used cooking splatter guards (fine stainless mesh) as my fine filters, not the hop bag material.



yep I agree with dan, definitely get strong filter plates, after using hop bag material and them seeing clog up very easily I have moved to using the stainless steel mesh off some IKEA splatter guards, the work really well and would recommend them


----------



## Edak

booargy said:


> DIY elements
> http://www.thermalelectric.com.au/downloads.php




Could you please tell me which one it is? I see several 2250 ones in there and no prices!

I wouldn't expect to get any greater volume than the standard 20L with a gravity of no greater than 1065.


----------



## Doogiechap

Tony said:


> now to find a 4 inch long flanged piece of SS tube about 3 inches dia to make a chimney, and boil efficiency will be improved a lot!
> 
> anyone know of a suitible item?



Hi mate,
I stumbled across this website which may be heading in the right direction. 
Otherwise I'm sure you could find an exhaust fitter that could whip something into shape for you  
Cheers
Doug


----------



## gava

Tony, 



I had the same idea about SS bowl and was going to implement into my kettle, Now your doing it i'll just copy what you've done  make my job easier.

Mines inside so Im going to vent via a tube out the window..




Tony said:


> I have been trolling the net for AB PLC's and working as a Control System Engineer..... i know what they cost. The ones on evilbay from china are well priced but im still up for $800+ for what i want. I have done some thinking and i do want to use PLC. but was going to start a search (having only ever used high end gear) for cheaper PLC's. These sound good.
> 
> Do you know what the programing software is like. I have the AB software and know it back to front which is why i wanted to go that way.
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking i may have some SS sheets cut and folded to make a square lagging box to go around the pot. fill the inside with insulation and it is still all shiney
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah mate.... it has a SS barrel union at both points of the pump for easy removal. You dont need it often but when you do.... ALL PRAISE THE BARREL UNION
> f
> here is the new "tightarse" dome top for the Braumonster. cost $13
> 
> now to find a 4 inch long flanged piece of SS tube about 3 inches dia to make a chimney, and boil efficiency will be improved a lot!
> 
> anyone know of a suitible item?


----------



## ForkBoy

dmac said:


> One other thing, make sure your filter plates are nice and strong. I was using a 30 cm kettle false bottom as the top mash filter, which worked for 2 brews, but bucked under the pressure during the third. I did it a little differently to matho in that i used cooking splatter guards (fine stainless mesh) as my fine filters, not the hop bag material.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Cheers
> Dan



Hi Dan, I am using the false bottom as the top filter in my ghettobrau. I could not imagine that warping. What did you replace it with?

Ps I don't use a fine filter. I did not think it needed it. Ran very clear after 10 mins or so.I also use a pretty coarse crush and still get >75%.


----------



## dmac80

ForkBoy said:


> Hi Dan, I am using the false bottom as the top filter in my ghettobrau. I could not imagine that warping. What did you replace it with?
> 
> Ps I don't use a fine filter. I did not think it needed it. Ran very clear after 10 mins or so.I also use a pretty coarse crush and still get >75%.



Hi Forkboy,

I replaced it with some thick stainless sheet with some slots cut in it, haven't tested the replacement filter plate yet though. The false bottom i had was a domed one that was around 0.5 mm thick i think.

Interesting that you haven't used any fine mesh, do you have any pump rests? Was the >75% efficiency mash or brewhouse?

Cheers


----------



## ForkBoy

dmac said:


> Hi Forkboy,
> 
> I replaced it with some thick stainless sheet with some slots cut in it, haven't tested the replacement filter plate yet though. The false bottom i had was a domed one that was around 0.5 mm thick i think.
> 
> Interesting that you haven't used any fine mesh, do you have any pump rests? Was the >75% efficiency mash or brewhouse?
> 
> Cheers



I have the beerbelly domed false bottom, which I think is the same as craftbrewer etc, and 0.5mm is probably right. I have a central rod that I bolt it down with so it's under a fair amount of force. I have only run one brew through the dome so far (I started with a strainer first time and that was fail). The dome seems pretty solid, I could not imagine it deflecting at all. I hope it's a workable solution. Maybe the difference is in the crush or the fine mesh?

No, I did not do pump rests or stir the mash. 

Efficiency is pre-boil & post boil refractometer reading plugged into beersmith. I used 70% in the recipe and hit OG, but with 2-3 more litres than expected in a 22L batch, so I'm estimating 75% or more. I probably shouldn't quote numbers without being sure, but neither brew has finished with me thinking "well, that was way out". This was sparging with 8-9L water as well.


----------



## dmac80

ForkBoy said:


> I have the beerbelly domed false bottom, which I think is the same as craftbrewer etc, and 0.5mm is probably right. I have a central rod that I bolt it down with so it's under a fair amount of force. I have only run one brew through the dome so far (I started with a strainer first time and that was fail). The dome seems pretty solid, I could not imagine it deflecting at all. I hope it's a workable solution. Maybe the difference is in the crush or the fine mesh?
> 
> No, I did not do pump rests or stir the mash.
> 
> Efficiency is pre-boil & post boil refractometer reading plugged into beersmith. I used 70% in the recipe and hit OG, but with 2-3 more litres than expected in a 22L batch, so I'm estimating 75% or more. I probably shouldn't quote numbers without being sure, but neither brew has finished with me thinking "well, that was way out". This was sparging with 8-9L water as well.



Ok. My false bottom lasted 2 brews and deformed on the third, letting some grain around the edge of the filter at one section. I hit just over 70% brewhouse efficiency with no sparge, but hope to improve that by reducing kettle losses with a better pickup tube.

I think the finer mesh will possibly put higher stresses on the filter plate.

Cheers


----------



## matho

Edak said:


> okay, so the most compatible pots that I can find "off the shelf" for a decent price are:
> 19L BigW pot (322mm dia x 260 H) (I already have this)
> 50L Handy Imports (425mm dia x 400 H)
> http://www.handyimports.com.au/50l-industr...epan-p-294.html ($134 inc shipping)
> 
> GryphonBrewing pump ($37) + shipping
> 
> U-bend-it coil or similar if I can get it cheaper, looking at 2400W
> 
> Tell me how I am going so far!






Edak said:


> Could you please tell me which one it is? I see several 2250 ones in there and no prices!
> 
> I wouldn't expect to get any greater volume than the standard 20L with a gravity of no greater than 1065.



from my unit I have found that the minimum water to grain ratio *inside* the malt pipe is 2.3l/kg and it flows a lot nicer above the 2.7l/Kg so I would say aim for about 3l/kg and all will be well.

Now you are going to have a 19l malt pipe but you will lose about 2-3 l because of the filter plates so let say the volume between the filter plates will be 16l.
In my calculations when working out my unit I went off that crushed grain displaces 0.65l/Kg and it seems about right so using the 3l/kg and 0.65l/kg you get the total volume required is 3.65l/kg so in a 16l space you will be able to fit 4.4 kg. Now if you want 20l into the fermenter you are going to lose about 2l to hot break and hop material so you will need 22l at the end of the boil. Going off the figure of 38ppg which equate to about 316 points per Kg litres, getting 80% eff out of these style of units is fairly easy so you could expect to extract about 253 points per kg litre, so 253 *4.4 kg / 22l you get an OG of 1.050, if you reduce your water to grain ratio to 2.5l/kg you could get 1.058

As Dmac pointed out if you need more volume in your malt pipe you can just get another pot and cut the bottom and handles off and slide it in, very simple, just make sure you make the centre rod long enough too take the extra height. Once you have worked out the malt pipe the rest of the volume calculations only need to concern having enough liquid to cover the element and not too much that the liquid goes over the top of the malt pipe when the grain is added, what ever volume you lack when the malt pipe is removed you can make up with sparging. 

hope this helps, you could probably squeeze a bit more out of it but just keep the water to grain ratio above 2.3l/kg

cheers steve


----------



## Edak

matho said:


> from my unit I have found that the minimum water to grain ratio *inside* the malt pipe is 2.3l/kg and it flows a lot nicer above the 2.7l/Kg so I would say aim for about 3l/kg and all will be well.
> 
> Now you are going to have a 19l malt pipe but you will lose about 2-3 l because of the filter plates so let say the volume between the filter plates will be 16l.
> In my calculations when working out my unit I went off that crushed grain displaces 0.65l/Kg and it seems about right so using the 3l/kg and 0.65l/kg you get the total volume required is 3.65l/kg so in a 16l space you will be able to fit 4.4 kg. Now if you want 20l into the fermenter you are going to lose about 2l to hot break and hop material so you will need 22l at the end of the boil. Going off the figure of 38ppg which equate to about 316 points per Kg litres, getting 80% eff out of these style of units is fairly easy so you could expect to extract about 253 points per kg litre, so 253 *4.4 kg / 22l you get an OG of 1.050, if you reduce your water to grain ratio to 2.5l/kg you could get 1.058
> 
> As Dmac pointed out if you need more volume in your malt pipe you can just get another pot and cut the bottom and handles off and slide it in, very simple, just make sure you make the centre rod long enough too take the extra height. Once you have worked out the malt pipe the rest of the volume calculations only need to concern having enough liquid to cover the element and not too much that the liquid goes over the top of the malt pipe when the grain is added, what ever volume you lack when the malt pipe is removed you can make up with sparging.
> 
> hope this helps, you could probably squeeze a bit more out of it but just keep the water to grain ratio above 2.3l/kg
> 
> cheers steve




Thanks Steve for the thorough rundown, I guess my initial calcs were a bit off and although I could use two pots for the malt pipe I think that this is not an ideal situation because I will not be able to add much more height to the MP.

Back to the drawing board for me I guess.


----------



## Edak

Has anyone else made any progress with their build? 
I need some more ideas. 

I would love to think of a good way to do this using an urn. It would require a rim inside the urn about 1/3 from the bottom to which a similarly sized "malt" pipe would seal down. Instead of letting it overflow, the wort would be pumped from above the grain to below. The pump would require that the level of the wort is above text inlet. 
This replaces the outer cavity of the BM with an"under" cavity. 
Tell me I am crazy.


----------



## kelbygreen

but you would always have a outer cavity wouldnt you??? unless the malt pipe was that tight and a rubber surround that it filled the external water tight. Water will flow the easiest way and if you have a gap down the sides and the bottom water tight the water on the sides will get stuck. 

I have not had anything to do with anything like this so what I said is prob way off but just my thoughts lol


----------



## Edak

kelbygreen said:


> but you would always have a outer cavity wouldnt you??? unless the malt pipe was that tight and a rubber surround that it filled the external water tight. Water will flow the easiest way and if you have a gap down the sides and the bottom water tight the water on the sides will get stuck.
> 
> I have not had anything to do with anything like this so what I said is prob way off but just my thoughts lol



True, I was drunk when I wrote that.


----------



## Edak

Ok so i am on holidays in sunny/rainy cairns and have discovered the marine shop up the road which is the same company where you got your skin fittings from. Looks like I am going to drag my wife over there


----------



## Edak

Edak said:


> Ok so i am on holidays in sunny/rainy cairns and have discovered the marine shop up the road which is the same company where you got your skin fittings from. Looks like I am going to drag my wife over there


OK I called them (Whitworths) , asked that they have the skin fittings I wanted in stock and caught a taxi there and when I got there they didn't f'ing have any! So pissed with them. Their excuse is that their computers stock levels are up to 10 days old, and so when they "checked" they didn't check at all, rather put me on hold and twiddling their thumbs for a minute then tell me some crap. 

Never giving them my business again....


----------



## Edak

OK, 

So I have acquired some of the parts I need and now need to get the smaller 19L pot into the new larger 50L pot. 

50L pot ($99 @ chefland)














Pot with pot in it (19L pot from bigW) ($20)
Looks like about 4-5cm around the edges.





Interesting tray which I saw for cheap down at chef-land (marked as pizza tray for $5.95)
Top




Bottom





Theoretical assembly





I am curious about whether this pizza tray will be suitable or not. I will have to cut it down for the lower tray if I am to use it. It fits almost perfectly into the top of the pot. The holes are about 8mm (without measuring them).

What do you think?

Also, what is the recommended way to smooth off the area where I cut the handles off the 19L pot?


----------



## dmac80

Edak said:


> Also, what is the recommended way to smooth off the area where I cut the handles off the 19L pot?



edak,

I used a flap disc on the angle grinder.

cheers


----------



## matho

looks good edak,

make sure the filter plates are very rigid because my first filter plates just bent as soon as the pump was turned on, and then the next filter plate made out of 1.2mm stainless bent too, what caused it was the filter material was clogging up and then pushed the filter plate, I opened up the slots and used a IKEA splatter guard which worked.

as for the handles, if there is no sharp edges I would leave them as is, to smooth of my handles I used a flap disc on the angle grinder.

cheers steve


----------



## lukec

Hi everyone,



Ive been watching this thread with great interest for ages and decided to contribute some pics of my build so far.

The only things now are the element, which im having professionaly bent for a perfect fit and the march pump which will be installed tomorrow.


----------



## matho

that looks awesome,
for all the people thinking of using those shaped vessels how are you sealing the bottom of the malt pipe?

keep us posted

cheers steve


----------



## lukec

matho said:


> that looks awesome,
> for all the people thinking of using those shaped vessels how are you sealing the bottom of the malt pipe?
> 
> keep us posted
> 
> cheers steve



I have used 12mm silicone tube attached to the base of the malt pipe, gave it a test run this arvo with little brown pump and it sealed really well. No way it would work with grain in there though.I will only be only using a kk temp controller to begin with as I have limited electrical skills. And the pump will just be on a manual switch.
Just got to make up the legs tomorrow and pick up elemnpent during week and with some luck I will be brewing in it next weekend.It will just need a thorough clean before I use it.


----------



## Tony

Edak said:


> 50L pot ($99 @ chefland)



Ooooooo :huh: 

Can you please put up the dimentions (H x Dia) of that pot please.

It looks like it could make a good malt pipe for my build


----------



## kelbygreen

is that for your 140lt pot you got ages ago tony??? or have you got another one since?


----------



## Edak

Tony said:


> Ooooooo :huh:
> 
> Can you please put up the dimentions (H x Dia) of that pot please.
> 
> It looks like it could make a good malt pipe for my build




Top edge (diameter) = 420mm 
Bottom Edge (diameter) = 390mm
Height = 395mm

They had HEAPS of pots there, both Al and SS.
SS pots in this cheap range included 20L 36L 50L 70L and something larger. There were also lower profile pots, but these aren't really suitable. There was also a one-of-a-kind 20L thinner taller pot, which I was keen to get but it was poorly finished. When I asked to look at the 50L pot (they are on te top shelf so you ask for a ladder) he asked immediately "for homebrew?" and said that this is common for 50L.

The pizza plate seems quite rigid, I would have some (limited) trouble deforming it by hand, I am more concerned about the hole distribution and it is quite thin.


My dad left his angle grinder here last time he was around so I might pick up a flap disc if that is what I need... I have never used an angle grinder though.

Hey LukeC, I like your keggle, I was going to use my keggle (you see it in the back of the photo) but decided against it because of the comments on here.


Where is everyone getting the center rod from? The only ones I have seen are the zinc plated ones at Bunnings and I didn't think that this would be suitable.

Other equipment I have (for comment):
* keg-king green mag pump
* SS Skin fittings
* All electronics including a new 20x4 LCD (damn right! No cramming stuff on that tiny little screen!)

I read about making custom panels for electronic projects by printing onto transparency film. This allows you to get nice sharp edges and neat logo, marking and LCD "bezel".


----------



## Tony

Its only 92L but im thinking of getting a fully custom "vessle" made with a nice rigid 3mm plate SS base.

Something i can drill and tap  

Most of the 50L pots i have found on ebay are 400 x 400mm and i want a tube closer to 350mm dia and 5oo high..... and i can get one custom made for about $100


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> 
> 
> Ive been watching this thread with great interest for ages and decided to contribute some pics of my build so far.
> 
> The only things now are the element, which im having professionaly bent for a perfect fit and the march pump which will be installed tomorrow.




Hey LukeC, 

What are you using as the filter plate there? It looks similar to what I have, but is a different colour.. does it have a non-stick coating or something?


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> Hey LukeC,
> 
> What are you using as the filter plate there? It looks similar to what I have, but is a different colour.. does it have a non-stick coating or something?



I hey edak, I have some spare stainless allthread you can have for nothing if you like.The filter is a pizza tray cut down. Not sure if I will use it or not yet.


----------



## keifer33

These guys have threaded rod in various M sizes quite cheap. Found heaps in 1m and 0.5m lengths that are willing to post to australia.

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Bolt-Store


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> I hey edak, I have some spare stainless allthread you can have for nothing if you like.The filter is a pizza tray cut down. Not sure if I will use it or not yet.



That's really kind of you Luke. What dimensions has the rod (thread size and length)? How would I get it from you? 

That eBay store was really cheap so I wouldn't want to inconvenience either of us.


----------



## lukec

Size is M10, length is what ever you like up to 2.7m, I'm a plumber and we use it at work. I work in cbd and live in Yarra Valley. No stress f you don't want it though.


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> Size is M10, length is what ever you like up to 2.7m, I'm a plumber and we use it at work. I work in cbd and live in Yarra Valley. No stress f you don't want it though.



It's an awesome offer and thank you but I think Burwood is a little out of the way  I am guessing that I will start with about 500mm and work down from there.


----------



## Smokomark

Edak said:


> That's really kind of you Luke. What dimensions has the rod (thread size and length)? How would I get it from you?
> 
> That eBay store was really cheap so I wouldn't want to inconvenience either of us.



I just went to the local nut and bolt store ( capalaba ) this arvo and purchased 1 metre length of 10mm SS threaded rod for $9.50


----------



## Edak

smokomark said:


> I just went to the local nut and bolt store ( capalaba ) this arvo and purchased 1 metre length of 10mm SS threaded rod for $9.50



Nut and bolt store? I have looked at all hardware stores near me and can't find any. Will try that mob on eBay I guess..


----------



## matho

you could always try all things stainless, I have never dealt with them so I don't know what they are like but they do have Australian wide delivery


----------



## matho

there is also coventry fasteners give them a call to see


----------



## Florian

Has anyone thought about designing a hop feeder yet?

I'd like to automate my system as much as possible, a hop feeder would mean that I only need to attend once during the process to lift the malt pipe (automated PID controlled winch anyone?).

After looking at this (scroll down a few posts for hop feeder pics) I had a look if I could find something similar pre made, but all I could find were automated fish feeders, which require one unit for each addition, and it also means that you have to wait until the boil starts and then program each one individually, not worth the hassle.

Would it be easy to hook them up to the controller though? That could be an option. 

I like the feeder from the German dude, but he boils with the lid on and only a small vent pipe which I can't say I'm a fan of (although he now has incorporated a foam detector in the lid which turns the element of for 30 seconds or so until the foam has gone back down). 

Anyway, has anyone else given this a bit of thought?


----------



## benno1973

There's a great video somewhere of Zizzle's modified servos as hop dispensers. Hang on, here it is... 

There's also another one of a guy who built one on a 360 degree servo, can't remember the specifics, but it had a bunch of pvc pipes that he filled with hops for each addition, and the pipes all sat on a disc with a single outlet dropper which sat on the servo. The servo rotated 60 degrees putting one of the hop pipes above the dropper and the hops would fall into the boil. Another 60 deg and the next addition, and so on. That's a really bad explanation though, it's much clearer in my head


----------



## DJR

If you are going to do an automated hop dropper a screw-in-pipe (auger feed) design I reckon is the way to go....

Something like a wide diameter auger drill bit attached to a servo motor, stuck into some PVC pipe. Load the hops into a screw or two of the auger bit, then the second addition a few screw turns up and then program the servo to do a few revs of the auger bit when required. Put the end of the PVC pipe close to the edge of the boiling wort so it can drop in easily

If you look at a modern vending machine it is the same concept and pet food dispensers are similar too

Not sure whereabouts you'd find a cheap plastic auger piece though, you might be able to make one out of lots of short pieces of wood with a central rod, or some ally sheet cut into round sections and some pop rivets or JB weld to bond sections together into a long screw piece wrapped around a rod of some sort

Or... you could just visit the boiling wort two or three times to add your hops manually


----------



## DJR

Florian said:


> I like the feeder from the German dude, but he boils with the lid on and only a small vent pipe which I can't say I'm a fan of (although he now has incorporated a foam detector in the lid which turns the element of for 30 seconds or so until the foam has gone back down).
> 
> Anyway, has anyone else given this a bit of thought?



You'd probably need to think about either turning off the element for a little bit before adding your hops and then start the element again, or just remember to always use anti-foam in your production process to stop boilovers. If you are controlling the hop dropper and the element in the same controller then turning off the element for a little bit while adding hops and allowing some heat to release (not sure how long, maybe only 15-30 secs would be enough) would probably stop most of the boilover problem


----------



## NickB

Suppose it really depends on what size kettle you're running what sized batch in.... No worries if it's a 90L kettle with 60L in it. I suppose though that we're really talking 'all-in-one' breweries, so the batch size will be almost max relative to the kettle size used...


I would definitely look at an oversized kettle if thinking of automated hop additions for the above mentioned boil over reasons though. Depends on price I reckon...

Cheers


----------



## Zizzle

Ah, one of my favourite topics 

For my original brewbot I used a design like the german one (actually inspired by ArnieW and his Herman).



As you can see I had to put the lot in a plastic box. There is a computer fan at the back that pressurises the box.

Without that the hops would swell with the steam from the boil and not go down the chute reliably.

The other problem with that design is that you lose an unpredictable amount to the pellets coming apart, turning into powder and coming out between the gap at the bottom of the tubes.

As for the newer design that Kaiser posted, I wanted something quick to build for the design contest, a little more compact, that avoided the steam issue and the hop powder issue. I noticed that you can get micro servos on ebay for under $2 each delivered, so got a bunch of those.

They are a bit underpowered for the job and pretty fragile, but have worked reliably despite some rough handling: the brewbot has been fedexed to California, driven to Texas and "professionally" moved to Colorado.

Never had any boil over problem with any of my brewbot designs.

There is a third design that my good mate Brad back on the Gold Coast put together for his brew machine. It's basically a 6cm wide rubber belt around 2 pulleys. Cups are bolted to the belt - like a conveyor. One end hangs over the kettle. Each cup turns upside down as it goes over the pulley.

One problem with hop droppers is just that they get in the way. Now if you have an angled chute so the droppers aren't directly over the kettle then you have problems with the hops not rolling down or coming apart in the chute. The chute of course will like to form a lot of condensation causing hops to stick. Similarly if you have any mechanism over the boil it will cause condensation drip, so you want to be careful about what it is made of.

With the latest brewbot design, the hop dropper cups are angled such that their lowest point is outside the perimeter of the kettle. So the drips don't end up in the beer.

But I would also consider a design where there is mechanism to have the droppers mounted out of the way and move over the boil just before each drop.


----------



## dkaos

lukec said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> 
> 
> Ive been watching this thread with great interest for ages and decided to contribute some pics of my build so far.
> 
> The only things now are the element, which im having professionaly bent for a perfect fit and the march pump which will be installed tomorrow.


Hi Luke,
How did you go with the element and the March pump getting fitted? I'll be using a keg to make my BM as well, so if you could show pics of the malt pipe seal that would be gold.

Cheers,

Clint


----------



## Edak

OOOh, I like the idea of auto hop additions.

Usually when the boil starts (before hop additions) doesn't one adjust the boil time depending on the projected evaporation rate and the volume of water used to rinse/sparge the grain?

When it is time to boil, given the above statement, wouldn't it be suitable to adjust either the boil time or enter a value for the current volume into the control unit? This way you will be adding the hops at the right time in order to get down to a specific volume.

Or am I just crazy?


----------



## dkaos

So Matho after viewing your videos and going through the thread a few times, there's just one thing that is getting me. How are you lifting out the 19L pot before commencing the boil? I notice in the official BM videos they use that short handle type thing. 

If it's possible, could you record a short video of each portion of your brew day to give a total understanding of your system? Even with a bit of commentary! I know it's asking a lot since you've already provided so much, but it would just be clearer for me and hopefully other potential braumeiser builders.

Cheers,

Clint


----------



## Edak

He only has a 8-9Lt pot inside. I have the 19L pot and will make up something similar to the pick up device used in the original braumeister.

And I also discovered this website, who have the threaded rod, all stainless screws and washers and plenty of other fixings at extraordinary prices!

http://www.boltsnutsscrewsonline.com

No affiliation, but I just bought lots of stuff from there. Will report back when I receive it.

Instead of that nice big stainless curved bar which is used to drain the malt pipe, I thought that I might put a couple of edges at the top of my pot. I find it hard to describe, but if you were to cut two slots near the top of the pot and insert a flat tab in each. This would from the top look like a couple of squared off edges in the big O made by the pot. The malt pipe will have bolts that stick out of the sides similarly to the original braumeister, these will rest on the shelves. It is essentially integrating the resting bar into the big pot.

I told you it's hard to explain!
EDIT:
Something like this:


----------



## matho

Clints Gadgets said:


> So Matho after viewing your videos and going through the thread a few times, there's just one thing that is getting me. How are you lifting out the 19L pot before commencing the boil? I notice in the official BM videos they use that short handle type thing.
> 
> If it's possible, could you record a short video of each portion of your brew day to give a total understanding of your system? Even with a bit of commentary! I know it's asking a lot since you've already provided so much, but it would just be clearer for me and hopefully other potential braumeiser builders.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Clint



as edak has pointed out I am only using a 8l pot but I remove it the same way a the braumeister I put some bolts on the side of the malt pipe and with some spare SS threaded rod and a blow toruch I bent up a hook to remove it Ill post some pictures when I get home tonight. As for a video Ill see what I can do.


----------



## dkaos

Edak said:


> He only has a 8-9Lt pot inside. I have the 19L pot and will make up something similar to the pick up device used in the original braumeister.
> 
> And I also discovered this website, who have the threaded rod, all stainless screws and washers and plenty of other fixings at extraordinary prices!
> 
> http://www.boltsnutsscrewsonline.com
> 
> No affiliation, but I just bought lots of stuff from there. Will report back when I receive it.
> 
> Instead of that nice big stainless curved bar which is used to drain the malt pipe, I thought that I might put a couple of edges at the top of my pot. I find it hard to describe, but if you were to cut two slots near the top of the pot and insert a flat tab in each. This would from the top look like a couple of squared off edges in the big O made by the pot. The malt pipe will have bolts that stick out of the sides similarly to the original braumeister, these will rest on the shelves. It is essentially integrating the resting bar into the big pot.
> 
> I told you it's hard to explain!
> EDIT:
> Something like this:


Hey Edak,
When I first read it I had an idea of what you were trying to explain, but it wasn't like how you have drawn it. That's a great idea. So you are just using stainless nuts and bolts as the posts?

To stop the pot from rolling do you flatten the bolt at all? Or do you rely on the small gap between the large pot and malt pipe for it to just roll 20-30 degrees and not tip over.

I think this thread needs a lot more photo contribution expanding what matho and others have already done. When I start my build I'll be sure to pay it forward and will be doing some videos as well.

Cheers,

Clint


----------



## Edak

Clints Gadgets said:


> Hey Edak,
> When I first read it I had an idea of what you were trying to explain, but it wasn't like how you have drawn it. That's a great idea. So you are just using stainless nuts and bolts as the posts?
> 
> To stop the pot from rolling do you flatten the bolt at all? Or do you rely on the small gap between the large pot and malt pipe for it to just roll 20-30 degrees and not tip over.
> 
> I think this thread needs a lot more photo contribution expanding what matho and others have already done. When I start my build I'll be sure to pay it forward and will be doing some videos as well.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Clint


Hi Clint, 

Yes, the bolts are all that is used. They will be cut to length so that the inner malt pipe fits snugly into the large pot. The weight of the grain and malt pipe holds it in position on the plates, just as it I believe does on the metal bracket with the original braumeister.

I like the idea of having more images, will provide more when I continue my build (I only get some time on the weekends to do this).


----------



## lukec

Hey all,
I've added pump to mine and basically finished except for the filters and element which hopefully will be ready friday.
I'll post so pics when I get home tonit so you can see how I've mounted pump and also how the malt pipe sits above wort level for sparging.


----------



## dkaos

Thanks Luke, looking forward to it!

Got my brown pump today, now it's time to start getting a pot to fit inside my keg.


----------



## Robbo2234

Clint,

are you installing a malt pipe into a converted beer keg?
if so what are you doing about the curved base there would only be a small area that the seal touches?


----------



## lukec

As of this afternoon this is where im at. Water tested and no leaks. Just need element and away we go.


----------



## matho

lukec said:


> As of this afternoon this is where im at. Water tested and no leaks. Just need element and away we go.




wow thats awesome good job


----------



## dkaos

Robbo2234 said:


> Clint,
> 
> are you installing a malt pipe into a converted beer keg?
> if so what are you doing about the curved base there would only be a small area that the seal touches?



Yeah that is going to be interesting. I am actually waiting to see what Luke does so I can do what he has done or modify it for my purpose. I can only assume that there will be enough downward pressure from the wingnut to keep it in place.

Let me explain with this diagram. I'm off sick today so I thought I would have a go at drawing something out to help with my build and possibly contribute to the thread.




Say I leave a 30mm lip inside the malt pipe for the silicon hose to form around as the seal, I think that should be enough.





lukec said:


> As of this afternoon this is where im at. Water tested and no leaks. Just need element and away we go.



Oh hell yeah! That is definitely what I'll be doing to my keg. Cutting those insertion holes out is brilliant Luke. Is the march pump mounted on the threaded rod?

If it's not too much to ask, could I get you to post a pic of how you cut the bottom of the pot out and sealed it too for the keg braumeiser?

Cheers,

Clint


----------



## lukec

Clints Gadgets said:


> Yeah that is going to be interesting. I am actually waiting to see what Luke does so I can do what he has done or modify it for my purpose. I can only assume that there will be enough downward pressure from the wingnut to keep it in place.
> 
> Let me explain with this diagram. I'm off sick today so I thought I would have a go at drawing something out to help with my build and possibly contribute to the thread.
> 
> View attachment 53878
> 
> 
> Say I leave a 30mm lip inside the malt pipe for the silicon hose to form around as the seal, I think that should be enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh hell yeah! That is definitely what I'll be doing to my keg. Cutting those insertion holes out is brilliant Luke. Is the march pump mounted on the threaded rod?
> 
> If it's not too much to ask, could I get you to post a pic of how you cut the bottom of the pot out and sealed it too for the keg braumeiser?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Clint






Hey Clint, I'll post some more pics tonight or tomorrow night. Just picked up my element so hopefully it will go in tonight ( depending on 2 kids behaving). $71.50 inc get for 2400w element. Also I used a sealing tape thing that us plumbers use which sticks to the bottom of the pot to create the seal for malt pipe. Heat proof and food safe.


----------



## dkaos

lukec said:


> Hey Clint, I'll post some more pics tonight or tomorrow night. Just picked up my element so hopefully it will go in tonight ( depending on 2 kids behaving). $71.50 inc get for 2400w element. Also I used a sealing tape thing that us plumbers use which sticks to the bottom of the pot to create the seal for malt pipe. Heat proof and food safe.



Thanks mate, really can't wait to check it out!

Cheers,

Clint


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> As of this afternoon this is where im at. Water tested and no leaks. Just need element and away we go.



Totally Impressed....

I got my bolts and bits today from that Bolts Nuts Screws Online place, damn that was fast and very good service. (No affiliation) I would note that they have no security on their webpage and thus I paid with direct deposit. All came neatly packed and is top quality stuff. So damn cheap. I remind you that I have no affiliation.


Also got some stuff from Craftbrewer, it's been a good day...


----------



## Edak

Since I have now got most of the parts to start assembling, what are you drilling the stainless with? I only have a hand corded drill. All fittings are 1/2BSP. Would it be better to use a holesaw or step bit? KEGKING have tungsten holesaw bits. 

Still have to get an element though.


----------



## dkaos

Hey Edak,
I have both. With a good holesaw you wont need the step bit. To get a good tungsten carbide hole saw you're looking at about $30 plus the arbor which is a similar price. I get the tungsten hole saws from Bunnings, brand is Sutton Tools.

Then you need cutting fluid as well. Just take it nice and slow, for stainless you're looking at 235 RPM. If you go tooo fast you'll experience work hardening of the pot and will shred your holesaw or step drill.

Good luck!

Clint


----------



## Feldon

Edak said:


> Since I have now got most of the parts to start assembling, what are you drilling the stainless with? I only have a hand corded drill. All fittings are 1/2BSP. Would it be better to use a holesaw or step bit? KEGKING have tungsten holesaw bits.
> 
> Still have to get an element though.




Just my 2c re putting holes in pots...

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=788914


----------



## Edak

Feldon said:


> Just my 2c re putting holes in pots...
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=788914



I like the punch idea, especially since it makes such clean holes. I will still have to drill some things ie. the bolts into the malt pipe and the element holes are god knows what size.


----------



## Edak

Don't know why I can't edit the previous comment, but I found these on eBay very cheap.
QMax Sheet Metal Punch
Only about $20 for the 7/8" one.

I bought both 10mm and 7/8" punches to do all parts of the job. Lets hope they do the job 

Just have to wait for delivery, which will probably take a while from the UK but should be worth it for the simplicity of punching a hole and the fact that the punches only cost me $38 total including delivery.


----------



## dkaos

Yeah I have heard the punches are great as well but they dont work on 1-2mm stainless kegs. I think the price will be worth the wait!

Cheers,

Clint


----------



## keifer33

I used one the same on a robinox pot and it worked fine. you do need a large allen key to drive it but i got a cheap set from bunnings


----------



## Edak

keifer33 said:


> I used one the same on a robinox pot and it worked fine. you do need a large allen key to drive it but i got a cheap set from bunnings



Sweet, and a robinox pot is most likely thicker than my one. Was the hole really nicely punched for your pot given that it is thick?


----------



## keifer33

Yeah i was amazed how nice it was. i just ran around a few times with the sander attachment on my dremel to be sure.


----------



## lukec

ELEMENTS IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, just got to wire it up. Picks to come when the monsters go to bed.


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> ELEMENTS IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, just got to wire it up. Picks to come when the monsters go to bed.



Gee those monsters stay awake for a long time


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> Gee those monsters stay awake for a long time



Hey edak,
Sorry about pics, I have it running at the moment testing, i will get pics up soon. Wish I could upload straight from iPad.


----------



## lukec

Some more pics, just have to tidy up wiring after i test and check for leaks


----------



## matho

lukec said:


> Some more pics, just have to tidy up wiring after i test and check for leaks




that looks awesome lukec great job


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> Some more pics, just have to tidy up wiring after i test and check for leaks


Excellent job Luke, what power element is that and is it enough to keep a rolling boil?

Also, are you doing 20L batches with this?


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> Excellent job Luke, what power element is that and is it enough to keep a rolling boil?
> 
> Also, are you doing 20L batches with this?



900mm 2400w element, rolling boil with 30 litres in the keg last night. That's when I discovered a few leaks underneath. Sorted them this morning. Temp goes up about 1 degree every 90 seconds. Should be alot quicker after I insulate the keg.


----------



## black_labb

I'm thinking of putting together a system like a cross between a biab system and a braumiser/meister. I'm thinking instead the malt pipe I would have mesh over the element and inlet valve and use a biab bag to keep the grain together. Would it be likely that the bag would cause some channeling around the side during the recirculating mash? I'm still working through some ideas for how it will work at the moment. The reason I'm thinking of doing it this way is this way I can forego the malt pipe and it's complexity (sealing, sizing,flexing mesh ect.). Then again that leaves me with a recirculating automated stepping BIAB setup, though still relevant I guess.


----------



## matho

I can't see why it wont work, you might get a bit of channelling but I wouldn't think it would matter much, only one way to find out.

cheers

steve


----------



## stux

So,

Can anyone think of any reason why the HERM-IT controller couldn't be used in a Brau-meister?
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=64334&st=0

I guess, the real trick would be to have a way to engage the boil? (override the element?)


----------



## black_labb

I can't see a reason why the hermit can't be used. It's a controller for a pump and an element which is essentially what you want here. 



matho said:


> I can't see why it wont work, you might get a bit of channelling but I wouldn't think it would matter much, only one way to find out.
> 
> cheers
> 
> steve




thanks, I'll post some info once I get some things finalised. Currently thinking about doing a separate mash tun to kettle but the mash tun would be an automated one running the same way a brau runs. Something about pumping up through the grain bed that makes sense to me.


----------



## matho

Stux said:


> So,
> 
> Can anyone think of any reason why the HERM-IT controller couldn't be used in a Brau-meister?
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=64334&st=0
> 
> I guess, the real trick would be to have a way to engage the boil? (override the element?)



I think you answered your own question Stux, it would work well for the mash cycle but you would probably have to by pass it for the boil, and I don't know about pump rests, which I think is important in an upward circulation system. Of course you add a switch inline with the pump so you could turn it on and off as you wish, it looks like a good unit and for the price if people don't want to make one themselves then its a bargain really because to put a box like that together would take me about 4-5 hours and then add that to about $150 for the parts. But where the fun in buying something when you can make it 

cheers steve


----------



## Edak

How are you all adjusting the flow in your systems? Have you got valves on the output of your pumps?


----------



## seamad

Got mine like this..kettle- valve- pump. Pumps tend to like it better that.
Cheers
Sean


----------



## roller997

I was under the impression that the valve goes after the pump so the pump gets as much liquid on the input side. Since it is magnetic, throttling it at the output should be fine.
So having the valve after the kettle before the pump could starve the pump from getting enough liquid.

Regards

Roller


----------



## Tony

Roller997 said:


> I was under the impression that the valve goes after the pump so the pump gets as much liquid on the input side. Since it is magnetic, throttling it at the output should be fine.
> So having the valve after the kettle before the pump could starve the pump from getting enough liquid.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Roller



+1


----------



## lukec

I'm doing my first brew on mine tomorrow. Lucky enough to have RDO. Valve is after pump. With the amount of testing and mucking around I've done the last 2 weeks I have found the more flow to the pump the better. I'm using march 809.


----------



## matho

awesome luke hope all goes well

cheers


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

matho said:


> I think you answered your own question Stux, it would work well for the mash cycle but you would probably have to by pass it for the boil, and I don't know about pump rests, which I think is important in an upward circulation system. Of course you add a switch inline with the pump so you could turn it on and off as you wish, it looks like a good unit and for the price if people don't want to make one themselves then its a bargain really because to put a box like that together would take me about 4-5 hours and then add that to about $150 for the parts. But where the fun in buying something when you can make it
> 
> cheers steve


I dont see why it wouldnt work either, the unit has a on/off switch for the pump so thats covered. The unit has not been tested on a prolonged boil but I will sort that out this weekend and report back.
It would be nice to see the two ideas working together.
The fun stops after unit five for the week :lol: 
Nev


----------



## matho

Gryphon Brewing said:


> The fun stops after unit five for the week :lol:



:lol:


----------



## dkaos

Just called Stokes, they can supply an 850MM 2400W element for $113.45 with $20 shipping. Model number is 227-10B in case anyone is looking for it.

It's U-Bend-It as well.

I'm hoping to find something cheaper, can anyone point me in the right direction?

Cheers,

Clint


----------



## lukec

Clints Gadgets said:


> Just called Stokes, they can supply an 850MM 2400W element for $113.45 with $20 shipping. Model number is 227-10B in case anyone is looking for it.
> 
> It's U-Bend-It as well.
> 
> I'm hoping to find something cheaper, can anyone point me in the right direction?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Clint



Thermal products Thomastown. 900mm, 2400w element was about $80.


----------



## dkaos

Beauty, thanks Luke. Seeing that site I'm sure it was referenced before in the thread, but I have gotten sick of going through 24 pages so many times over the past few weeks.

Clint


----------



## cspencer

matho said:


> Now you are going to have a 19l malt pipe but you will lose about 2-3 l because of the filter plates so let say the volume between the filter plates will be 16l.
> In my calculations when working out my unit I went off that crushed grain displaces 0.65l/Kg and it seems about right so using the 3l/kg and 0.65l/kg you get the total volume required is 3.65l/kg so in a 16l space you will be able to fit 4.4 kg. Now if you want 20l into the fermenter you are going to lose about 2l to hot break and hop material so you will need 22l at the end of the boil. Going off the figure of 38ppg which equate to about 316 points per Kg litres, getting 80% eff out of these style of units is fairly easy so you could expect to extract about 253 points per kg litre, so 253 *4.4 kg / 22l you get an OG of 1.050, if you reduce your water to grain ratio to 2.5l/kg you could get 1.058



Now just trying to get my head around the calculations and process here. 

I've got myself a 19L BigW pot (2 infact, so if I stuff the first one I've got a backup) and use this a malt pipe inside a 50L SS pot that I'll have to get. I would have thought that putting the 4.4kg of grain in the malt pipe with the 13.2L of water now equal about (4.4 * 0.65) + 13.2 = 16.0L and this would not overflow the malt pipe and thus have nothing to pump. Should I then be adding water to make sure that the element and pump inlet are covered outside the malt pipe. But would this not then make my water to grain ratio too high, eg around the 4l/kg?

As a software developer I was thinking of using an arduino device with a DS18b20 temp sensor and relays to control the pump and heater. My Questions here are:
- does the brown plastic pump have enough guts to push the water up through the grain?
http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/pro...products_id=502

- And has anyone used software on a laptop to control the Unit (arduino) which turns things on/off and sends temp updates every 30 seconds back to the program which tells it what to do next, as the software can have graphs of temp and timers (unlimited) and even import your brew files from other programs like Beer Smith (in theory). for me writing the software seems easier than designing/copying/understanding the electonics.

Sorry to be a pain if these have been answered before in theis thread but 26pages is a lot of reading and I only found this a few days ago. :huh: 

Thanks matho for the great ideas

Clayton


----------



## matho

hey clayton,

the way I think of it is the malt pipe is your mash tun, so the volume of it will give you your water to grain ratio, then you add the rest of the water to keep the element under the liquid line when pumping, when I get some time tomorrow Ill put some drawings up explaining it.

the Arduino is a great little unit I'm in the process of making up a kit for the controller based on the arduino here are some threads 

the controller thread

and

the arduino development thread

there are people working on exactly what you are thinking about, read the arduino thread and see what you think. 

anyway can't wait to see what you come up with

cheers steve


----------



## dkaos

Hey Clayton,
Thought I would chime in here as I've re-read the whole 26 pages a few times over. It is worth going through at least once, as well as getting Matho's PDF's for the build to get your head around it. There are heaps of different ways of doing this and the thread delivers!

Clint


----------



## cspencer

Thanks clint, I've read it once but things/ideas started to meld into one, I'll have to go through it taking notes next time.

Thanks steve for the other links


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> Thermal products Thomastown. 900mm, 2400w element was about $80.



Hi Luke

That's a great price for a bend it yourself SS element. Do I have something wrong? Is there really a concern about "scorching" the wort? I hear mixed responses.

Still waiting for my tools to arrive, then I will order the right element.

This was my quote for a range of low density SS elements from TEE. Note that they don't have 3600W or 2400W, but they have 2500W, what the heck is with that?

1 x Part No: UBI-OB225
240V 2250W U-Bend-It Heating Element. 3025mm overall length, 2925mm Heatzone. Low Watt 
Density Element, INC800 Sheath to suit slightly acidic solution.
Price @ $139.00 EACH plus GST.

1 x Part No: UBI-OB250
240V 2500W U-Bend-It Heating Element. 3350mm overall length, 3250mm Heatzone. Low Watt 
Density Element, INC800 Sheath to suit slightly acidic solution.
Price @ $155.00 EACH plus GST.

1 x Part No: UBI-OB300
240V 3000W U-Bend-It Heating Element. 4000mm overall length, 3900mm Heatzone. Low Watt 
Density Element, INC800 Sheath to suit slightly acidic solution.
Price @ $175.00 EACH plus GST.


----------



## QldKev

Clayton Spencer said:


> Now just trying to get my head around the calculations and process here.
> 
> I've got myself a 19L BigW pot (2 infact, so if I stuff the first one I've got a backup) and use this a malt pipe inside a 50L SS pot that I'll have to get. I would have thought that putting the 4.4kg of grain in the malt pipe with the 13.2L of water now equal about (4.4 * 0.65) + 13.2 = 16.0L and this would not overflow the malt pipe and thus have nothing to pump. Should I then be adding water to make sure that the element and pump inlet are covered outside the malt pipe. But would this not then make my water to grain ratio too high, eg around the 4l/kg?
> 
> As a software developer I was thinking of using an arduino device with a DS18b20 temp sensor and relays to control the pump and heater. My Questions here are:
> - does the brown plastic pump have enough guts to push the water up through the grain?
> http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/pro...products_id=502
> 
> - And has anyone used software on a laptop to control the Unit (arduino) which turns things on/off and sends temp updates every 30 seconds back to the program which tells it what to do next, as the software can have graphs of temp and timers (unlimited) and even import your brew files from other programs like Beer Smith (in theory). for me writing the software seems easier than designing/copying/understanding the electonics.
> 
> Sorry to be a pain if these have been answered before in theis thread but 26pages is a lot of reading and I only found this a few days ago. :huh:
> 
> Thanks matho for the great ideas
> 
> Clayton



matho has provided the links and there are quite a few people with a lot more knowledge than me on these boards. Also as a developer I went the same way you are talking about. Basically I wrote a protocol for communications between the arduino and a laptop. That way the laptop can have a FAI (Flass Ass Interface) and do full logs of the brew day. The only thing you will need to monitor temps more often than 30 secs for the heat exchanger, so keep the protocol overhead small. 

I should pull my finger out and get mine finished, it's been 6 months since I last looked at it. 

QldKev


----------



## matho

Edak said:


> Hi Luke
> 
> That's a great price for a bend it yourself SS element. Do I have something wrong? Is there really a concern about "scorching" the wort? I hear mixed responses.



Edak, I went with low heat density because I was worried about scorching but after seeing what the yanks are using 5500w I don't think scorching is an issue, I went with stainless steel sheath too because they recommended it but I think Incaloy would be fine as that is what everyone else looks like they are using including the braumeister.

clayton I have put a pdf together trying to explain my calculations I hope it makes sense 

View attachment braumiser_volume.pdf



cheers steve


----------



## angus_grant

Clayton Spencer said:


> Now just trying to get my head around the calculations and process here.
> - And has anyone used software on a laptop to control the Unit (arduino) which turns things on/off and sends temp updates every 30 seconds back to the program which tells it what to do next, as the software can have graphs of temp and timers (unlimited) and even import your brew files from other programs like Beer Smith (in theory). for me writing the software seems easier than designing/copying/understanding the electonics.
> Clayton



I have mucked around with a Netduino and have got it reading temps, started hooking up an LCD display. Met some problems there with a Netduino shield being not quite compatible with Netduino (buttons on LCD shield return 5V values, but Netduino analogue pins only read 3.3V), so some hacking required. I haven't played with the built-in Ethernet module, but there are some people who are having problems with DHCP settings, etc.

Having to deal with debugging through USB, limited hardware, limited ram, limited resources, limited pins, etc, etc is all starting to sound too painful to me.

So I have started investigating USB data acquisition modules. You plug these things in, Windows creates a virtual com port and you start banging serial commands off it. The one I am looking at (http://www.bipom.com/products/us/2951617.html) handles having a DS18B20 temp probe plugged straight onto one of it's digital pins. You tell that pin it is in "temperature" mode and the firmware on the board returns you a text value with the temperature in Celcius. Too easy.....

I have sent those guys an email asking if their 10A relay board hooks up to the USB board and if it handles 240V. The relay board uses I2C for communication, but the USB board makes no mention of I2C support. Otherwise I am fairly sure any of the eBay relay boards for the Netduino will hook up to it as the USB board has similar power specs for the pins as the Arduino

And then I am developing a C# application inside Windows with the full MS framework, Windows-grade wireless network for network, can look at hacking into Beersmith/Beermate recipes for controlling brewing electronics, uploading brew results straight to my website, etc, etc. Gravy!!


----------



## angus_grant

Would this relay be a nice addition to these setups: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-State-Relay-...3#ht_3762wt_906

I figure if you can use a pot to control the relay output voltage to a heating element, then you could do the same with a PWM pin and somehow feed that PWM output into the relay to control how much power is going into the heating element. I am guessing that would be nicer for the element than being switched on and off constantly when maintaining mash temps.

Matho: how much does your heating element switch on and off when mashing? Is this even a valid concern?


----------



## hosko11

Edak said:


> Hi Luke
> 
> That's a great price for a bend it yourself SS element. Do I have something wrong? Is there really a concern about "scorching" the wort? I hear mixed responses.
> 
> Still waiting for my tools to arrive, then I will order the right element.
> 
> This was my quote for a range of low density SS elements from TEE. Note that they don't have 3600W or 2400W, but they have 2500W, what the heck is with that?
> 
> 1 x Part No: UBI-OB225
> 240V 2250W U-Bend-It Heating Element. 3025mm overall length, 2925mm Heatzone. Low Watt
> Density Element, INC800 Sheath to suit slightly acidic solution.
> Price @ $139.00 EACH plus GST.
> 
> 1 x Part No: UBI-OB250
> 240V 2500W U-Bend-It Heating Element. 3350mm overall length, 3250mm Heatzone. Low Watt
> Density Element, INC800 Sheath to suit slightly acidic solution.
> Price @ $155.00 EACH plus GST.
> 
> 1 x Part No: UBI-OB300
> 240V 3000W U-Bend-It Heating Element. 4000mm overall length, 3900mm Heatzone. Low Watt
> Density Element, INC800 Sheath to suit slightly acidic solution.
> Price @ $175.00 EACH plus GST.



Thermal Products also have the incoloy low watt density u-bend elements and I'm pretty sure they were around $100 for the 2400W version (btw they're Grimwood branded elements). They didn't come with brazed on bushes though, so I ended up getting one of the bain marie U shaped elements which is also incoloy, low watt density, 2500W (i think), bendable and has brazed on bushes. I think I paid around $120 for it. I preferred the idea of brazed bushes as it limits nooks and crannies.


----------



## matho

on the original braumiser I have a 2.5 sec switching cycle, so I suppose the worst case scenario would be 50% power 1.25 sec on 1.25 sec off, I have zero crossing switching so RF is reduced I haven't found any problems with this setup. What you have posted is a phase angle firing SSR and it is only on for part of the waveform on part power to all of the waveform for full power

HERE is a PDF explaining different types of SSR, there is also another type of SSR's with mosfets in the output stage which will turn on and off directly with a pulse which could be used directly with PWM, any SSR with a triac in the output stage will always turn off at the zero crossing.

that SSR uses a pot to change the phase angle firing if you wanted to control it with and arduino you will probably need something like THIS

cheers steve


----------



## lukec

Clayton Spencer said:


> Now just trying to get my head around the calculations and process here.
> 
> I've got myself a 19L BigW pot (2 infact, so if I stuff the first one I've got a backup) and use this a malt pipe inside a 50L SS pot that I'll have to get. I would have thought that putting the 4.4kg of grain in the malt pipe with the 13.2L of water now equal about (4.4 * 0.65) + 13.2 = 16.0L and this would not overflow the malt pipe and thus have nothing to pump. Should I then be adding water to make sure that the element and pump inlet are covered outside the malt pipe. But would this not then make my water to grain ratio too high, eg around the 4l/kg?
> 
> As a software developer I was thinking of using an arduino device with a DS18b20 temp sensor and relays to control the pump and heater. My Questions here are:
> - does the brown plastic pump have enough guts to push the water up through the grain?
> http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/pro...products_id=502
> 
> - And has anyone used software on a laptop to control the Unit (arduino) which turns things on/off and sends temp updates every 30 seconds back to the program which tells it what to do next, as the software can have graphs of temp and timers (unlimited) and even import your brew files from other programs like Beer Smith (in theory). for me writing the software seems easier than designing/copying/understanding the electonics.
> 
> Sorry to be a pain if these have been answered before in theis thread but 26pages is a lot of reading and I only found this a few days ago. :huh:
> 
> Thanks matho for the great ideas
> 
> Clayton





I'm using bigw pot and just fitted 5kg of grain into it easily. Hope that helps. 50% pale 50% wheat.


----------



## cspencer

matho said:


> clayton I have put a pdf together trying to explain my calculations I hope it makes sense
> 
> View attachment 54243
> 
> 
> 
> cheers steve



thanks steve for the calculations, I think I understand how/why you are calculating that. I never thought that having too much water in the malt pipe and then adding the grain would just make it overflow into the outer pot (will try to keep that in mind when I get to that stage  )

In your example you have minimum initial water of 21.7L with 4.45kg grain this works out to be 4.8L/kg is this too high as we where aiming at 3L/kg, or does this not make any difference. 

this coming from a 19L BIAB brewer on the gas stove, that if I want to do a full 23L batch I'll break the recipe in two and do the whole process twice, no-chill in 2x15Lt cubes (75-80% full) and mix together in the fermenter, a lot of work for just one batch of 23L

Clayton


----------



## matho

I'm only concerned with the water to grain ratio inside the malt pipe because that is what is going to affect the flow through the malt pipe. The rest of the liquid is just there so we can heat it and pump it through the malt pipe. 

cheers


----------



## Edak

matho said:


> I'm only concerned with the water to grain ratio inside the malt pipe because that is what is going to affect the flow through the malt pipe. The rest of the liquid is just there so we can heat it and pump it through the malt pipe.
> 
> cheers


Can't you just boil all of the extra volume out? Just make sure it's in your hop adding calculations...


----------



## matho

sorry I must be confusing people, that calculation of 21l is the minimum amount of water needed to be able to pump without the element being exposed, you will still have to add water for the sparge to get to pre boil volume. The problem with the braumiser/braumeister is it get confusing because there is 2 different liquid to grain ratio, you have the total liquid to grain ratio which I really think doesn't matter much and the liquid to grain ratio inside the malt pipe which is important to give you good flow, too much grain and you won't get good flow. I said 3l/kg which works well but you could push it to 2.5l/kg if you really want but anything stiffer will probably cause problems. The mention of to much liquid was because once I tried to reduce the amount of water I needed to sparge so I decided to start with more water, the initial water level was only about an inch below the lip of the malt pipe, when i added the grain the water level increased, of course, and ended up going over the top of the malt pipe make a mess of things.

cheers steve


----------



## Edak

matho said:


> sorry I must be confusing people, that calculation of 21l is the minimum amount of water needed to be able to pump without the element being exposed, you will still have to add water for the sparge to get to pre boil volume. The problem with the braumiser/braumeister is it get confusing because there is 2 different liquid to grain ratio, you have the total liquid to grain ratio which I really think doesn't matter much and the liquid to grain ratio inside the malt pipe which is important to give you good flow, too much grain and you won't get good flow. I said 3l/kg which works well but you could push it to 2.5l/kg if you really want but anything stiffer will probably cause problems. The mention of to much liquid was because once I tried to reduce the amount of water I needed to sparge so I decided to start with more water, the initial water level was only about an inch below the lip of the malt pipe, when i added the grain the water level increased, of course, and ended up going over the top of the malt pipe make a mess of things.
> 
> cheers steve


I understood that what you meant was the total volume of water plus malt resulted in a higher level than the top of the malt pipe.


----------



## cspencer

matho said:


> sorry I must be confusing people, that calculation of 21l is the minimum amount of water needed to be able to pump without the element being exposed, you will still have to add water for the sparge to get to pre boil volume. The problem with the braumiser/braumeister is it get confusing because there is 2 different liquid to grain ratio, you have the total liquid to grain ratio which I really think doesn't matter much and the liquid to grain ratio inside the malt pipe which is important to give you good flow, too much grain and you won't get good flow. I said 3l/kg which works well but you could push it to 2.5l/kg if you really want but anything stiffer will probably cause problems. The mention of to much liquid was because once I tried to reduce the amount of water I needed to sparge so I decided to start with more water, the initial water level was only about an inch below the lip of the malt pipe, when i added the grain the water level increased, of course, and ended up going over the top of the malt pipe make a mess of things.
> 
> cheers steve




steve, I've got it now I, i think :huh: 

step 1. put 21L water in pot without malt pipe, bring up to 70+ degrees
step 2. drain most of this water out into clean bucket/drum/pot thing > 21L capacity
step 3. insert and secure malt pipe
step 4. put back into malt pipe about 10L water (just enough to mix/mash up grain)
step 5. secure top filter to malt pipe, 
step 6. add remaining water to bring above mini fill level for heating element safety

are step 1-2 required? or just bring up water and grain to desired temp (67ish) from room temp (20ish)


----------



## matho

Clayton Spencer said:


> steve, I've got it now I, i think :huh:
> 
> step 1. put 21L water in pot without malt pipe, bring up to 70+ degrees
> step 2. drain most of this water out into clean bucket/drum/pot thing > 21L capacity
> step 3. insert and secure malt pipe
> step 4. put back into malt pipe about 10L water (just enough to mix/mash up grain)
> step 3. put bottom filter in place, add malt and stir
> step 5. secure top filter to malt pipe,
> step 6. add remaining water to bring above mini fill level for heating element safety
> 
> are step 1-2 required? or just bring up water and grain to desired temp (67ish) from room temp (20ish)



just take step 2 out, you don't need to remove the water, there should be enough height in the malt pipe so you dont have to worry about it going over the top. With the example in the pdf the height of the water level with 21l and malt added to the malt pipe and the pump off would be about 19cm so you still have 8 cm to go to the top of the malt pipe, you could even add 25l instead of 21l if you want and still have enough height in the malt pipe when filling with grain.

cheers steve


----------



## lukec

Hey guys,
Just thought I would let you know how my first brew in my dodgy braumeister went.
Was a heferweisen, 50% wheat 50% pale.
Added 23 litres water to start got to 50c added grain and raised to 64, all going well so far. Pump running well, element stayed underwater.It held no worries at 64 for the hr then raised to 78 for 15 min mash out.Went to raised malt pipe for sparge when I realized I had not made a handle to lift it straight out.2 pairs of multi grips and scorched hands later I sparges with 12 litres an had pre boil of 30 litres.Could not measure gravity as I dropped my hydrometer and smashed it on concrete.Boiled awesome with 2400 watt element.Ended up with 24 litres post boil and 22 into fermenter.Chilled to 24 and pitched starter and set ferment temp to 19c.I'll let you all know how it turns out.
Anks again for advice and help on how to build one of these.
Luke


----------



## lukec

Hey guys,
Just thought I would let you know how my first brew in my dodgy braumeister went.
Was a heferweisen, 50% wheat 50% pale.
Added 23 litres water to start got to 50c added grain and raised to 64, all going well so far. Pump running well, element stayed underwater.It held no worries at 64 for the hr then raised to 78 for 15 min mash out.Went to raised malt pipe for sparge when I realized I had not made a handle to lift it straight out.2 pairs of multi grips and scorched hands later I sparges with 12 litres an had pre boil of 30 litres.Could not measure gravity as I dropped my hydrometer and smashed it on concrete.Boiled awesome with 2400 watt element.Ended up with 24 litres post boil and 22 into fermenter.Chilled to 24 and pitched starter and set ferment temp to 19c.I'll let you all know how it turns out.
Anks again for advice and help on how to build one of these.
Luke


----------



## matho

sounds good luke, any pics?

cheers steve


----------



## lukec

matho said:


> sounds good luke, any pics?
> 
> cheers steve



Yep, a few. I'll try to get them on here tonight.


----------



## angus_grant

Despite all that, you still made beer... :kooi: Nice work Luke.

Sounds like people are starting to get these things up and running. I wonder whether we should split out our builds into separate threads. It is next to impossible to follow a particular build through all 27 pages of this thread.

I ordered one of those USB data acquisition boards last night so look forward to playing with that. The one problem is that I will need my small laptop whenever I want to brew. But that is one downside to so many upsides. And laptops are so cheap these days. I am also wondering about a Windows tablet with touch-screen, etc, etc. That would be swanky, but a future purchase. Still got to buy my pots, heating element, etc, etc.. And build the damn thing. ha ha..

So what size malt pipe (seems most people are using the Big W pot) and main vessel pots are people using? It seems the 19L Big W pot is popular for the malt pipe. And I have seen a couple of posts where people are using a 50L main vessel pot. I've got Matho's pdf document to calculate water size and making sure it is above the element, but have not calculated it out yet.

I played with the idea of ordering the Braumeister 20L malt pipe plus filters for the 50L model, but it comes out to $170 or so. Figure I can build something much cheaper than that.

I take it that a double-batch (not that I am doing them but it is a consideration) would not be achievable in a 19L malt pipe due to grain to liquid ratio problems. I just realised how open-ended a question that is. Let's say a double-batch of 4.5% beer. Even the amount of liquid would be very close to the volume of a 50L vessel, and that doesn't even account for boil-off. So not easily achieved without top-ups into fermenter, etc, etc. I think I just answered my own question


----------



## cspencer

lukec said:


> Hey guys,
> Just thought I would let you know how my first brew in my dodgy braumeister went.
> Was a heferweisen, 50% wheat 50% pale.
> Added 23 litres water to start got to 50c added grain and raised to 64, all going well so far. Pump running well, element stayed underwater.It held no worries at 64 for the hr then raised to 78 for 15 min mash out.Went to raised malt pipe for sparge when I realized I had not made a handle to lift it straight out.2 pairs of multi grips and scorched hands later I sparges with 12 litres an had pre boil of 30 litres.Could not measure gravity as I dropped my hydrometer and smashed it on concrete.Boiled awesome with 2400 watt element.Ended up with 24 litres post boil and 22 into fermenter.Chilled to 24 and pitched starter and set ferment temp to 19c.I'll let you all know how it turns out.
> Anks again for advice and help on how to build one of these.
> Luke




great work luke, can't wait to see the pics.


----------



## Edak

Clayton Spencer said:


> great work luke, can't wait to see the pics.



+1 :drinks: 

Good to hear that it went well though. Was the wort nice and clear?


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> Thermal products Thomastown. 900mm, 2400w element was about $80.



Looking back through at this, what was the model number of your element? I can't find it...


----------



## dkaos

Just call them and tell them the specs, they will know what you need once you tell them. I spoke to them the other day and they were good.


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> Looking back through at this, what was the model number of your element? I can't find it...




reciept is on my desk at work. I will let you know tomorrow


----------



## lukec

This is the only clear photo the rest are a bit steamy. Its about 15mins into the mash. By the end it was crystal clear.
Next brew i will video a few parts and post.

Checked fermenter tonight and everything looks good. Big krausen up which had gone up through air lock.


----------



## angus_grant

Hi everybody,

I earnt some extra money over the last couple of weeks and am now looking at buying my pots for the build. I am looking at these guys pots: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BRAND-NEW-COMME...#ht_4888wt_1397

Now after doing some calculations (thanks so much Matho for your "malt pipe" calculations), my current 19L Big W pot + a 50L stainless pot from eBay will give me 4.45ks gain (as per Matho's calcs from the pdf). I wonder whether that is enough if I wanted to do some bigger beers.

So I was looking at a 25L + 71L from the eBay people. This would give me around 5.8kg grain capability with 26L minimum water. This minimum figure is a bit rough as the pot tapers from top to bottom. My homebrew book is at home so I can't really look up recipes (plus I am at work now). So using 5.8kg as the grain amount, that would give me about 9L in grain volume. So 26L - 9L grain volume gives me 17L, so then sparging with 12L to get me back up to 29L pre-boil volume. Assuming 3L trub and 3L boil loss, that would give me 23L into the fermenter.

Does this all sound sensible? I am sure I am missing something...


----------



## lukec

lukec said:


> reciept is on my desk at work. I will let you know tomorrow



Checked there websit, it's not on it. Part number is h03725. $71.50 in gst.


----------



## matho

angus_grant said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> I earnt some extra money over the last couple of weeks and am now looking at buying my pots for the build. I am looking at these guys pots: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BRAND-NEW-COMME...#ht_4888wt_1397
> 
> Now after doing some calculations (thanks so much Matho for your "malt pipe" calculations), my current 19L Big W pot + a 50L stainless pot from eBay will give me 4.45ks gain (as per Matho's calcs from the pdf). I wonder whether that is enough if I wanted to do some bigger beers.
> 
> So I was looking at a 25L + 71L from the eBay people. This would give me around 5.8kg grain capability with 26L minimum water. This minimum figure is a bit rough as the pot tapers from top to bottom. My homebrew book is at home so I can't really look up recipes (plus I am at work now). So using 5.8kg as the grain amount, that would give me about 9L in grain volume. So 26L - 9L grain volume gives me 17L, so then sparging with 12L to get me back up to 29L pre-boil volume. Assuming 3L trub and 3L boil loss, that would give me 23L into the fermenter.
> 
> Does this all sound sensible? I am sure I am missing something...



those figures I quoted in the PDF were conservative estimates, in the braumiser I went for a pot that gave me about 7.5l 'mash tun' capacity. Now this has limited me to about 10l of 1.050 wort into the fermenter, that is with 2.5kg of grain. What I have found with my system is that extract efficiency drops off rapidly as the grain bill increase, at 2kg of grain I can expect 80%+ extract at 2.5kg that has dropped to about 72%. If you can, go larger because it will give you more flexibility with the grain bill, your figures look good at glance, without knowing the exact dimensions of the pots. With a 19l pot you could probably squeeze over 5kg into it but the flow and efficiency will suffer.

cheers steve


----------



## Malted

matho said:


> Now this has limited me to about 10l of 1.050 wort into the fermenter,



:icon_offtopic: 
G'day Steve, just out of curiosity, what fermentation vessell do you use for fermenting 10L or wort? I would have thought ye old stock 30L FV could have too much headspace? 

Perhaps with smaller FV's one could fit more of them in ones fermentation fridge (It is a line of thought I have been pondering).


----------



## angus_grant

matho said:


> those figures I quoted in the PDF were conservative estimates, in the braumiser I went for a pot that gave me about 7.5l 'mash tun' capacity. Now this has limited me to about 10l of 1.050 wort into the fermenter, that is with 2.5kg of grain. What I have found with my system is that extract efficiency drops off rapidly as the grain bill increase, at 2kg of grain I can expect 80%+ extract at 2.5kg that has dropped to about 72%. If you can, go larger because it will give you more flexibility with the grain bill, your figures look good at glance, without knowing the exact dimensions of the pots. With a 19l pot you could probably squeeze over 5kg into it but the flow and efficiency will suffer.
> 
> cheers steve



25L
Diameter 320mm
Height 320mm

71L
Diameter 450mm
Height 452mm

And in the spirit of sharing, I have done up an Excel spreadsheet which uses Matho's calculations to produce volumes, grain bills, minimum water volumes, etc, etc (mmm, so much pie)

View attachment Braumiser_Volume_Calculations.xls

The first worksheet calculates out using a 19L malt pipe and a 50L main vessel.
The second worksheet calculates out using a 25L malt pipe and a 71L main vessel.

Matho, maybe you could look over this spreadsheet for correctness? The first worksheet has around the same values as your pdf, if you are willing to forgive rounding issues.

I figure that I will go for the 25L malt pipe + 71L main vessel. Go as big as I can now as it will make the system a bit more capable for bigger beers and will also work as close as I can afford to the efficient ratios. I do wonder a bit if the minimum water volume is a bit close to my actual boil volume, so that may reduce the amount of sparging I can do.

Can you sparge with the wort instead of new water? Would that achieve anything? If you have more water during mash, does that mean sugars dissolve into the water (avoiding saturation point) and reduces the need for sparging


----------



## MastersBrewery

I don't understand why your not keeping the same Main vessel of 50l, it's obviously not going to impede boil size, the larger 70l would require more energy to heat and maintain boil, not to mention increased evaporation losses. just my 2c, I'd prolly look at 25l malt pipe with 50l main vessel


----------



## matho

the spread sheet looks awesome angus, you are right about the volume getting high with the 25,71 combination you still want some water to sparge with.

you could always go with what Mastersbrewery said or you could go down the path that Dmac suggested, that is buy 2 19l pots and stack them to give you the extra height when you need it, I think that is a great idea because the price of those pots its not going to cost you much and gives you a variable height for larger grain bills. Masterbrewery's idea would work too with a 32 cm diameter malt pipe and about a 40cm pot will leave 4 cm around the malt pipe which is more than enough to fit in the element (I have 3.5cm around my malt pipe).

cheers steve


----------



## angus_grant

The handles make the 25L pot wider than the 50L pot and I was trying to keep the handles to use as lifting points for removing the malt pipe.

But more importantly, if using 25L malt pipe and 50L main vessel there is only 40mm around the malt pipe in the main vessel for fitting in the plumbing and heating element.

Diameter of 25L pot = 320 (at the bottom of the pot)
Diameter of 50L pot = 400 (at the bottom of the pot)
Diameter of 71L pot = 450 (at the bottom of the pot)

So with the 71L pot I would have 650mm each side of the 25L malt pipe for heating and plumbing.

Would it be possible to fit in the heating element plus valve outlet for tap, pump inlet into 40mm of space?


----------



## matho

Malted said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> G'day Steve, just out of curiosity, what fermentation vessell do you use for fermenting 10L or wort? I would have thought ye old stock 30L FV could have too much headspace?
> 
> Perhaps with smaller FV's one could fit more of them in ones fermentation fridge (It is a line of thought I have been pondering).


 sorry malted missed your question

I use one of those 15l jobbies, you know the cut down 30l ones, I don't think its the best because they are too wide for the height. Been thinking of using a 15l jerry can so I can put them side by side in the fridge 

cheer steve

edit: Angus, 4 cm should be enough but I did have to grind down the skin fitting on the pump inlet to make it fit. As for the lifting point I use 2 stainless steel counter sunk screws and lots of washers. Ill post some pics


----------



## angus_grant

ha ha, we posted at the same time Steve.

I am thinking now I will go with the 19L malt pipe + 50L main vessel. Given I will have 50mm each side for the heating element that should be plenty of space. I will position the heating element as close to the side as possible so I can upgrade to a 25L malt pipe if I want, but I will start with the idea of adding a second 19L pot to the top to increase volume. Cheaper...

I did some calcs and adding 9cms of another 19L pot to the existing malt pipe gives me a grain bill of 6kgs and min water of 20L which sounds more reasonable. And the beauty of that solution is that I still use the same sealing system at the bottom (which I haven't figured out yet) regardless of using the standard pot or two pots added together.

And one other bonus is the Mrs will be pleased that I am still using the 19L pot that I bought. I will buy another one for the extended malt pipe this weekend in case they stop stocking them. Perhaps a 3rd as a spare, or to heat up sparge water. I will be able to use a straight kitchen element for that though.

I haven't actually seen someone's malt pipe. Have you just cut the bottom of the pot away? I am thinking I may take this to a machine shop (or get a mate to do it who is very good with metal work) so as to get a straight cut.


----------



## matho

here are some pics


----------



## angus_grant

Cool, thanks Steve. Clears things up. I just figured people were cutting the bottom of the pot, but that would change the volume of the pot.....

I just purchased the pot. It should arrive next week. So things worked out a bit cheaper than I thought

So things to arrive next week:
-> 50L pot
-> 2 * Auberins 25A SSR + heatsinks
-> USB data acquisition device

Still to purchase/work out:
-> heating element
-> sealing of malt pipe
-> pump
-> thermowell for temp probe
-> associated plumbing bits (pipe and elbows for pump, outlet valve, etc)

Will one of those little brown pumps handle the load or am I better off going straight to a March pump?

With the heating element, I am looking at 2400 watt element, but will be running it on a standard powerpoint which is 10 amps. The heating element will draw 10 amps (if my calcs are correct). And if the power at the point is actually 230V then the amps will be slightly greater than 10 amps. So is this OK, or should I drop down to 2200W or 2000W. I would prefer to use the 2400W to decrease ramping times.


----------



## matho

angus_grant said:


> Will one of those little brown pumps handle the load or am I better off going straight to a March pump?
> 
> With the heating element, I am looking at 2400 watt element, but will be running it on a standard powerpoint which is 10 amps. The heating element will draw 10 amps (if my calcs are correct). And if the power at the point is actually 230V then the amps will be slightly greater than 10 amps. So is this OK, or should I drop down to 2200W or 2000W. I would prefer to use the 2400W to decrease ramping times.



I think Alexl is using a brown pump on a full size system and it seems to work.

2400W element pulls 10 amps at 240V, if you drop the volts so does the current and power because the resistance stays the same.

some useful formula's

ohm's law

V=I x R, I= V/R, R= V/I

power

P = V x A , P = I^2 x R, P = V^2/R

cheers steve


----------



## seamad

Angus,
i use a bigw pot for my malt pipe, you should be able to squeeze 6 kg in it, just did a porter in mine with 5.7 kg.

Cheers
sean


----------



## angus_grant

Yeh, something wasn't quite gelling when the voltage dropped and amps went up. Thanks for the formulas Steve. Some rusty memories from grade 12 physics from 8 years ago.  formulas all work now with amps dropping as the voltage does. 2400W element it is. 

Thanks Sean. Must be quite a squeeze getting 6 kilos in there. Have you measured your efficiency with that much grain?

Almost got enough gear to start hacking it all apart. Ha ha


----------



## seamad

Angus, effeciency dropped to 73% into fermenter for that one. 

Have done a few more mods to the blackdog, took some photos of the brew today, pretty happy with it now. Should post the updates tomorrow.


----------



## cspencer

angus_grant said:


> Cool, thanks Steve. Clears things up. I just figured people were cutting the bottom of the pot, but that would change the volume of the pot.....
> 
> I just purchased the pot. It should arrive next week. So things worked out a bit cheaper than I thought
> 
> So things to arrive next week:
> -> 50L pot
> -> 2 * Auberins 25A SSR + heatsinks
> -> USB data acquisition device
> 
> Still to purchase/work out:
> -> heating element
> -> sealing of malt pipe
> -> pump
> -> thermowell for temp probe
> -> associated plumbing bits (pipe and elbows for pump, outlet valve, etc)
> 
> Will one of those little brown pumps handle the load or am I better off going straight to a March pump?
> 
> With the heating element, I am looking at 2400 watt element, but will be running it on a standard powerpoint which is 10 amps. The heating element will draw 10 amps (if my calcs are correct). And if the power at the point is actually 230V then the amps will be slightly greater than 10 amps. So is this OK, or should I drop down to 2200W or 2000W. I would prefer to use the 2400W to decrease ramping times.



Angus, where did you get the SSR and Pot from?

As soon as Microsoft pays me my Windows Phone app Royalties I'll start getting the hardware together.


----------



## angus_grant

Clayton Spencer said:


> Angus, where did you get the SSR and Pot from?
> 
> As soon as Microsoft pays me my Windows Phone app Royalties I'll start getting the hardware together.



2 * Auberins SSR 25A
2 * Auberins SSR Heat sink
The heat sink is an external heat sink so they will sit on the outside of the control box, and the relay is on the inside. Sounded like a good idea at the time and only $3 difference.

50L stainless food grade pot

Sean, look forward to some more pics.


----------



## angus_grant

matho said:


> here are some pics



OK, so here's my thinking on the malt pipe seal. Chopping a circle out of the bottom of the pot like Steve has done, surely I can just get a circle of flat silicon which lays on the bottom of the main vessel and gets squashed in between the two pots when winding down the butterfly nut on the rod. It doesn't need to be attached to the lip of the malt pipe. That would make it easier to seal up the malt pipe: just a circle of silicon underneath the malt pipe.

The problem then is how do I withdraw the seal when withdrawing the malt pipe. Attach it to the bottom filter somehow, or attach it to the lifting points on the malt pipe. Makes more sense to attach it to the pipe as I will only want to withdraw the seal when withdrawing the pipe. Or do I permanently attach it to the malt pipe with some type of high temp adhesive. Would have to be food grade as well, I suppose.

Or when the malt pipe is withdrawn, then the seal is free to float around and I just lift it out with a spoon or something.

How well is your setup sealing Steve?

How are other people doing the seal?


----------



## lukec

After 1 brew in mine ive already decided to change a few things. Managed to get some perforated stainless to make better filters in malt pipe. Also modifying top of my keggle and actually made a lifting device and a bracket kind of thing for the malt pipe to sit on.

Ill post some pics of keg tomorrow after i modify it but here are some of the handle and bracket that i made up and work today ( busy day for me ).


----------



## dmac80

angus_grant said:


> OK, so here's my thinking on the malt pipe seal. Chopping a circle out of the bottom of the pot like Steve has done, surely I can just get a circle of flat silicon which lays on the bottom of the main vessel and gets squashed in between the two pots when winding down the butterfly nut on the rod. It doesn't need to be attached to the lip of the malt pipe. That would make it easier to seal up the malt pipe: just a circle of silicon underneath the malt pipe.
> 
> The problem then is how do I withdraw the seal when withdrawing the malt pipe. Attach it to the bottom filter somehow, or attach it to the lifting points on the malt pipe. Makes more sense to attach it to the pipe as I will only want to withdraw the seal when withdrawing the pipe. Or do I permanently attach it to the malt pipe with some type of high temp adhesive. Would have to be food grade as well, I suppose.
> 
> Or when the malt pipe is withdrawn, then the seal is free to float around and I just lift it out with a spoon or something.
> 
> How well is your setup sealing Steve?
> 
> How are other people doing the seal?



I bought some silicon baking mats off the internet and chopped one of those up to use as a seal, and just fish it out after the malt pipe comes out. I found it easiest to place the bake mat on the bottom of the vessel when it is cold, clamp the malt pipe in without the top filter plate, then heat up to strike temp. When at strike, add malt, top filter plate and refit clamp.
Cheers


----------



## stux

matho said:


> those figures I quoted in the PDF were conservative estimates, in the braumiser I went for a pot that gave me about 7.5l 'mash tun' capacity. Now this has limited me to about 10l of 1.050 wort into the fermenter, that is with 2.5kg of grain. What I have found with my system is that extract efficiency drops off rapidly as the grain bill increase, at 2kg of grain I can expect 80%+ extract at 2.5kg that has dropped to about 72%. If you can, go larger because it will give you more flexibility with the grain bill, your figures look good at glance, without knowing the exact dimensions of the pots. With a 19l pot you could probably squeeze over 5kg into it but the flow and efficiency will suffer.
> 
> cheers steve



Matho, I've done a fair bit of work on modelling BIAB extract efficiencies. You'll find that almost all your extract efficiency loss is due to extract being trapped by real grain absorption.

As the gravity goes up, the extact lost to the absorption will go up

Do you sparge? A good sparge should basically be able to get you back up to 90% efficiency.


----------



## angus_grant

Looks the goods Luke. I am still yet to turn my mind to lifting points, etc, etc. I am leaning towards some stainless eye-bolts like below:





Then some form of bracket like you have done with hooks on it for the eye-bolts. The eventual plan is to automate a winch to remove the malt pipe to draining position and then pump sparge water from other vessel through the malt pipe. That is somewhat down the track though.  

Nice Dmak. Seems a lot easier than trying to seal the actual hole cut in the pot. More eBay purchasing for me... Man, my credit card is copping a pounding. Still, I've got to buy all this stuff before my baby arrives early July.


----------



## cspencer

Just got a response from a supplier of SSR around the corner from work (fast response)

----------

Hi Clayton,
We have in stock. Price is $35 each plus GST for 50A/480V relay. For operation at 2400W/240V current draw is only 10A, no need for heatsink, just bolt to metallic surface.

Best Regards,

----------
I believe the SSR that is referred to is the first one on this page

http://www.practicalcontrol.com.au/ssr_modules.html

don't know if I would feel comfortable getting a cheap one from evilbay (via China/Hong Kong) and the one referred to the other day (Auberins 25A SSR ) from the USA with shipping was >$35US.

I can just pick this one up on the day I need it, is it way too much?

Clayton

As I'm not an electrician, I was thinking of building it all (not connect it to mains) in a IP rated box so the only cables coming out where the ones to the heating element (or have the element terminated in the box) and the two low voltage wires to control the SSR, is this ok? then go to an electrcian to get them to verify that is up to code and certify it all and actually do the final connections.


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> After 1 brew in mine ive already decided to change a few things. Managed to get some perforated stainless to make better filters in malt pipe. Also modifying top of my keggle and actually made a lifting device and a bracket kind of thing for the malt pipe to sit on.
> 
> Ill post some pics of keg tomorrow after i modify it but here are some of the handle and bracket that i made up and work today ( busy day for me ).



Nice perf. Where did you get it?




lukec said:


> Checked there websit, it's not on it. Part number is h03725. $71.50 in gst.



Thanks Luke, I will give them a call.

I just got my metal punches from UK! Will be putting holes in it tomorrow as I am too busy going to Mountain Goat tonight


----------



## seamad

Fellas, have updated photos of 





here edit.... stuffed up link stux has posted it below, thanks mate

Makes it a bit easier to follow the evolution
cheers
sean


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> Nice perf. Where did you get it?
> 
> 
> Perforated stainless from Henlaws in Heidelberg ( one of my companies suppliers i called in a favour so no cost.
> 
> The handles are some threaded 10mm stainless rod i have left over ( 1x 2.7m length still going for free if anyones prepared to pick it up)
> 
> Thanks Luke, I will give them a call.
> 
> I just got my metal punches from UK! Will be putting holes in it tomorrow as I am too busy going to Mountain Goat tonight


----------



## stux

seamad said:


> Fellas, have updated photos of
> 
> View attachment 54317
> 
> 
> here http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...f=6&t=57924
> 
> Makes it a bit easier to follow the evolution
> cheers
> sean




I think you meant this URL?

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=908224


----------



## matho

Stux said:


> Matho, I've done a fair bit of work on modelling BIAB extract efficiencies. You'll find that almost all your extract efficiency loss is due to extract being trapped by real grain absorption.
> 
> As the gravity goes up, the extact lost to the absorption will go up
> 
> Do you sparge? A good sparge should basically be able to get you back up to 90% efficiency.



always sparge, just noticed a loss in extract, I'll try and do another 'big' beer soon and check again. I have changed my sparging method, now I add about 2l at the mash out stage and then do a 'normal' sparge with the rest of the liquid to get to pre boil volume. My theory is if I reduce the gravity in the last stage of recirculation then there is less sugar left in the gaps in the grain when I remove it so there will be less sugars to extract in the sparge.

cheers steve


----------



## dkaos

How do you secure the plate on top of the grain bed Sean?


----------



## stux

matho said:


> always sparge, just noticed a loss in extract, I'll try and do another 'big' beer soon and check again. I have changed my sparging method, now I add about 2l at the mash out stage and then do a 'normal' sparge with the rest of the liquid to get to pre boil volume. My theory is if I reduce the gravity in the last stage of recirculation then there is less sugar left in the gaps in the grain when I remove it so there will be less sugars to extract in the sparge.
> 
> cheers steve



My theory is basically that the grain matrix acts as a whole load of little sponges, which hold the wort from the mash.

Lots of test have born it out to 

So, the best way to do a simply sparge (for BIAB) is to do a dunk sparge where you drain the grain, then dunk the bag into another pot of water, rewet the grain and agitate. As you do this the sugars which are trapped in the grain matrix, which mysteriously are at the same OG as your mash will dilute out into you sparge water... then you drain and add the sparge.

The result of the sparge can then simply be modelled as a dilution of the wort trapped in the grain diluted with fresh water... and then a second absorption loss is applied

Unfortunatley, I'm not sure how you would apply this to a braumeister clone... fly sparging is the alternate... which I don't know how to model 


Anyway, as you increase the grain, and decrease the L:G ratio, you will get a higher OG mash, and you will have a relatively higher percentage of the wort trapped in the grain matrix. That's the efficiency drop.

If you then were to dilute the absorbed wort with twice its volume in water you would be able to get 2/3rds of the loss back... although in reality you never quite get it perfectly diluted.

The ideal way to sparge a Braumeister would be to drain off the first runnings, add new sparge water, repump for a bit, and then re add the 1st runnings after draining the second runnings....


----------



## seamad

Clint,
Have a look at the picture .. top filter in place on the link ( use the one stux posted). Probably explains better than i can.
Basically the seal on the filter plates sits in the lip for the lid ( original bigw lid) just a little proud, then i drop on the blackdog lid and tighten the four wing nuts to lock it all down. Ive cut a bit of conduit and slotted one end as a tool to use on the wingnuts.

With reference to sparging, i let the pot drain and remove and sparge with 2 l water into a seperate pot, i find it usually at least ten points down on the main urn. I use this for starters after a boil or boil the hell out of it and add it back to the boil if i feel like it.

Cheers sean


----------



## Edak

I started the actual building of the unit today, I am impressed with how it is going.

See photos of the build...
Unit from the outside






Top-down view with malt pipe and lower mesh inside






Close up of installed malt pipe with no mesh (no seal yet)





Inside without the malt pipe installed






Lugs on the malt pipe for lifting (SS M10 bolts - is nice)





The bottom - no base installed yet, will have a (BIG) band that will run across center and will screw onto the centre rod (like mathos)






Things still to do:
* Seal malt pipe
* Get push down bar
* build the stand
* attach the electronics
* buy and fit the element 
* fit the pump and hoses (I have the green pump from keg king)
* bend up the pick-up-bar (sounds corny eh!)

So I just need to organise a date with my mate to get the welding done for the base.


----------



## matho

looking good edak, it's going to look sweet 

cheers steve


----------



## lukec

Looks great edak


----------



## Edak

matho said:


> looking good edak, it's going to look sweet
> 
> cheers steve






lukec said:


> Looks great edak



Cheers guys, 
I will have the pump fitted by the end of next week I think.


----------



## lukec

Here is another pic after a few modifications this morning. I found it to hard to get malt pipe in and out of the keggle so i hit it with grinder this morning.

Pretty happy with the results. The handles i made out of the extra stainless rod make it so simple to lift out the malt pipe and sit it for sparging.


----------



## Yorg

Hi folks,
Haven't tuned in to the forum for a while, but having read this thread I wish I'd shared this earlier, as some may have found the development path I took useful.

About 1.5 yr ago I made a setup along the braumeister principle, having talked with Arnie, who ended up taking a different path.
I didn't like the central column and clamping/screwing down of the 'malt pipe'- seemed more complicated than necessary. I've no prob with anyone going down that track, just sharing what I did:
I experimented with seals using silicon sealant, and finally hit on a 'design' that allowed the weight of the 'malt pipe' to be enough in-and-of itself to seal against the kettle.
Result:
- no clamping or screwing down mechanism needed
- no central rod needed.

Here is a quickly drawn diagram of the profile of the seal, without weight on it and then during use, whereby the silicon flares out to form a sealing surface.

Next is a picture of the bottom of the pot with the seal of the above profile along the cutout in the pot. (Bit manky, haven't brewed in a while and dragged it out of the shed.)

Next is a picture of the form I used to place against the pot to form the wet silicon - some ply.

I should say that I sit a false bottom above the cutout, and a BIAB grain bag is an alternative approach to the top filter plate.


----------



## AlexL

matho said:


> I think Alexl is using a brown pump on a full size system and it seems to work.
> 
> 2400W element pulls 10 amps at 240V, if you drop the volts so does the current and power because the resistance stays the same.
> 
> 
> cheers steve



That's right Steve, however it's not a quite full size system (12L malt pipe and 40L main vessel). I have found that the brown pump is strong enough to bend 1-1.5 mm stainless steel out of the way if the filter gets blocked, so no issues with pumping power. 

I use the O-ring out of a fermenter to seal the malt pipe, it's secured using food grade silicone. I've had no issues with the silicone degrading due to the heat. 

I've done 4 brews so far (first time AG) and it's all been a bit haphazard when it comes to calculating target gravities and required volumes. What's the best way of working out how much water must be used to sparge the system to hit the targets?

Cheers

Alex


----------



## Edak

AlexL said:


> ...
> I use the O-ring out of a fermenter to seal...


Cool idea. Will check the size of mine.


----------



## AlexL

Pictures of the O-ring seal can be found on page 12 of this thread:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=834285


----------



## Edak

AlexL said:


> Pictures of the O-ring seal can be found on page 12 of this thread:
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=834285



How did you attach it to the bottom there? silicone? Have you also found that sparging with this unit is slow or difficult because you have holes on the bottom of your MP rather than the whole base cut off?


----------



## seamad

Edak,
My MP just has four sections and some holes cut out with a splatteer gaurd siliconed in ( picture in the blackdog thread) and it drains fine.
Dont get hung up on sparging, if you can fit the volume you want in your pot you dont really need to sparge at all. Braumeisters have to i think to get the required volume, same with some of the home made ones. Just wrapping up a brew now, lifted MP and let it drain for around 20 min, took it outside and placed a big bowl under it and sparged with 2.5 l to use as starter. Hit targets spot on in urn without adding any sparge product.
First running were1037, sparge runnings were 1028 so boiled them for a while to get to 1040 for the starter.
IMO sparging means mucking around, the whole point of these systems is to make it as simple as possible.
From memory you have a 50 litre pot, mine is a 40 l crown, i normally do 22 l batches so i get a keg and four or so bottles for my dad, could squeeze a couple more litres no probs, so unless you are trying for doubles you shouldnt have to sparge..
Cheers
sean


----------



## Edak

seamad said:


> Edak,
> My MP just has four sections and some holes cut out with a splatteer gaurd siliconed in ( picture in the blackdog thread) and it drains fine.
> Dont get hung up on sparging, if you can fit the volume you want in your pot you dont really need to sparge at all. Braumeisters have to i think to get the required volume, same with some of the home made ones. Just wrapping up a brew now, lifted MP and let it drain for around 20 min, took it outside and placed a big bowl under it and sparged with 2.5 l to use as starter. Hit targets spot on in urn without adding any sparge product.
> First running were1037, sparge runnings were 1028 so boiled them for a while to get to 1040 for the starter.
> IMO sparging means mucking around, the whole point of these systems is to make it as simple as possible.
> From memory you have a 50 litre pot, mine is a 40 l crown, i normally do 22 l batches so i get a keg and four or so bottles for my dad, could squeeze a couple more litres no probs, so unless you are trying for doubles you shouldnt have to sparge..
> Cheers
> sean



Hi Sean, 

My query is solely efficiency related. My MP is not really all that large and I want to ensure that I get a good efficiency so I get a full size batch. The more points in the pot the better I guess. 

In the (probably very distant) future I would like the controller to be aware of the final volume desired, the volume in the tank and the boil-off rate (which it could establish within the first 5 minutes of the boil), then it could be able to adjust the total boil time automatically. 

Over engineered? Probably... Fun to see if it works? Definitely!


----------



## Edak

Yesterday I went into the Chefland shop again and I found a different perforated plate. This was $8.95 and because of the rolled edges is quite tough.

It fits almost perfectly as the top filter plate on the bigW pot. The lower plate will need to be trimmed down.










Today I went to Keg King after work and bought the rest of the fittings for the pump, now I need to do some cutting to get the skin fittings to the right length.

I also found the PERFECT candidate for the lock-down bar. They are the old 2nd hand keg "spikes", stainless with a perfect radius for a 10mm hole through the middle. I bought a few of them in all different sizes and will probably use one as the pick up bar, since they were only $2 each!!!!! I am sure they will come in handy for other parts of the system, maybe I could even give the whole thing some nice feet  You see one of the smallest ones in the back of the photo.

If you don't know what a keg spike is then Google Images It, it's the fourth image but the search is fun, you won't be disappointed... :0


----------



## Wolfy

Edak said:


> Today I went to Keg King after work and bought the rest of the fittings for the pump, now I need to do some cutting to get the skin fittings to the right length.
> 
> I also found the PERFECT candidate for the lock-down bar. They are the old 2nd hand keg "spikes", stainless with a perfect radius for a 10mm hole through the middle. I bought a few of them in all different sizes and will probably use one as the pick up bar, since they were only $2 each!!!!! I am sure they will come in handy for other parts of the system, maybe I could even give the whole thing some nice feet  You see one of the smallest ones in the back of the photo.


Keg Spears, the $2 ones are what they've pulled out of the kegs they're now selling cut and drilled. Most anyone who has converted kegs for their brew system will have some hanging around, I think mine are decorating the back yard. 

That top-filter plate sure looks the goods.


----------



## Edak

Wolfy said:


> Keg Spears, the $2 ones are what they've pulled out of the kegs they're now selling cut and drilled. Most anyone who has converted kegs for their brew system will have some hanging around, I think mine are decorating the back yard.
> 
> That top-filter plate sure looks the goods.



Yeah, SPEAR is the right word. I first searched for SPIKE and was impressed with my search result so I posted it as that. 

They are the perfect tool for the job though.

Can't beat the price for the plates, if they need more holes then I can just drill some more. The major take-home point with these is that they are still relatively thin but the rolled edges give them strength.


----------



## seamad

Its surprising how much force is generated against the top plate. Initially i had the mesh just attached to the 2 mm ss blackdog plate. Toward the end of the mash i saw the plate bending imbetween the four wingnut lockdown points plus a few points where wort was squirting through the mesh. To counter that i added the reinforced filter plate, start the first half an hour of pumping at a slower flow rate and opening up then. No problems since. The march pumps probably have a higher output than the brown variety though.
Prior to having the MP locked down i found that as the filter clagged up the pressure increase caused wort to escape from the base seal, reducing circulation. I found that clarity wasnt as good with the gravity system.
cheers
sean


----------



## Edak

I am struggling to find a good seal for the malt pipe. I have not been able to find anything suitable for the task at all.

The closest that I can think of (untested) would be the original BM MP seal gasket. The hole in the base of my MP is about 270mm so it's roughly the same size as the actual BM malt pipe, although I would have to modify the gasket because my hole has a horizontal edge rather than a vertical edge. 

I thought I might use some silicone tube like matho but The only suitable tube I can find (which is food grade and slightly squishy) is the standard 12mm ID tube from Keg King. This is huge and will probably be unsuitable due to the fact that it will trap a lot of liquid. I don't even know for sure whether this is a large concern but I would be happier not to have to deal with a loose seal. 

AARGH! This thing is doing my head in! Any other suggestions?

EDIT: And by the way those spears were perfect, they look schmick when holding down the MP and the other will perform well as a handle for picking up the MP. I just need to bend some of that threaded rod but have no idea how I will do that with the tools that I own..


----------



## seamad

They were my biggest headache too, luckily the pressure cooker seal solved my lower seal perfectly.

For my top seal i have some pinch seal from clark rubber. Its epdm rubber, probably not rated as food safe, but I think the braumeister uses it ?. Such a small bit and the alcohol is probably more toxic anyway.

Looking at your picture, i reckon that wrapped @ the MP would seal well. I took my pot into clark rubber to get the correct size, it's only a couple of bucks per m.

Enquired about silicon pinch seal but not readily available anf would cost $$$$

Hope this helps
sean


----------



## Edak

seamad said:


> They were my biggest headache too, luckily the pressure cooker seal solved my lower seal perfectly.
> 
> For my top seal i have some pinch seal from clark rubber. Its epdm rubber, probably not rated as food safe, but I think the braumeister uses it ?. Such a small bit and the alcohol is probably more toxic anyway.
> 
> Looking at your picture, i reckon that wrapped @ the MP would seal well. I took my pot into clark rubber to get the correct size, it's only a couple of bucks per m.
> 
> Enquired about silicon pinch seal but not readily available anf would cost $$$$
> 
> Hope this helps
> sean



There are two seals? 

I guess I will have to look at other appliances for a seal but I wouldn't have thought that removing a pressure cooker seal would be a cost effective solution because the cookers cost so much money to begin with...

Thanks for the tips.

EDIT: I just realised you can buy spare pressure cooker seals... I wonder where in Melb I could find a place which sells these


----------



## matho

edak I use the 3/8 stuff from craftbrewer, it seems to work well for me, just take your time with the stanley knife when cutting it down its length because it always wants to go off course.

cheers steve


----------



## Edak

matho said:


> edak I use the 3/8 stuff from craftbrewer, it seems to work well for me, just take your time with the stanley knife when cutting it down its length because it always wants to go off course.
> 
> cheers steve



Cheers.

I just found this site:
http://www.austplas.com.au/commercial.shtml

I wonder whether I can get something in a limited length for a good price


----------



## ArnieW

Edak said:


> I am struggling to find a good seal for the malt pipe. I have not been able to find anything suitable for the task at all.
> 
> The closest that I can think of (untested) would be the original BM MP seal gasket. The hole in the base of my MP is about 270mm so it's roughly the same size as the actual BM malt pipe, although I would have to modify the gasket because my hole has a horizontal edge rather than a vertical edge.
> 
> I thought I might use some silicone tube like matho but The only suitable tube I can find (which is food grade and slightly squishy) is the standard 12mm ID tube from Keg King. This is huge and will probably be unsuitable due to the fact that it will trap a lot of liquid. I don't even know for sure whether this is a large concern but I would be happier not to have to deal with a loose seal.
> 
> AARGH! This thing is doing my head in! Any other suggestions?
> 
> EDIT: And by the way those spears were perfect, they look schmick when holding down the MP and the other will perform well as a handle for picking up the MP. I just need to bend some of that threaded rod but have no idea how I will do that with the tools that I own..


I found a simple solution to this issue although it may not be for everyone. Rather than cut a large opening at the base of the malt pipe, I've got a cam-lock female fitting on the base (underside) of my MP. The cam levers have been removed and the fitting mates to a male camlock in the kettle. I get a perfect seal every time, and I don't even need to apply any top-down pressure to keep things together, even under pressure from a March 809. I do need to let the liquid levels equalise a bit before lifting the pipe after mashing, because it is nearly impossible to lift a full mash pipe. All that means is turn the pump off and wait about 30 seconds. 

I've been using this method for about 18 months now and wouldn't try to emulate the BrauMeister way of doing it. 

For more info, check out my blog.

cheers, Arnie


----------



## bonj

ArnieW said:


> I found a simple solution to this issue although it may not be for everyone. Rather than cut a large opening at the base of the malt pipe, I've got a cam-lock female fitting on the base (underside) of my MP. The cam levers have been removed and the fitting mates to a male camlock in the kettle. I get a perfect seal every time, and I don't even need to apply any top-down pressure to keep things together, even under pressure from a March 809. I do need to let the liquid levels equalise a bit before lifting the pipe after mashing, because it is nearly impossible to lift a full mash pipe. All that means is turn the pump off and wait about 30 seconds.
> 
> I've been using this method for about 18 months now and wouldn't try to emulate the BrauMeister way of doing it.
> 
> For more info, check out my blog.
> 
> cheers, Arnie


Matho sent me a link to your blog when he described your camlock fitting method. I plan to use this in my urn conversion because it allows me to keep the urn's centre mounted element. Thanks for the extra description, it has clarified the set up in my head.


----------



## dkaos

At first the camlock thing weirded me out, but now I think I'm going to give it a shot instead. Means the threaded rod and other bits and pieces I bought this morning on eBay are totally friggin useless though.


----------



## matho

hey Arnie,

I really like the camlock idea, very clever, when Bonj mentioned he had an urn with a centre element I thought of stealing your idea but using 2 camlocks 120 degrees apart and a nut and bolt as a 3rd leg to hold the pot above the element, attached is a quick sketch trying to explain the idea.

View attachment centre_element_maltpipe.pdf


A centre rod could be added to the malt pipe to hold the filters in place and then when the malt pipe is removed the urn would be free of any centre rod.
The pump layout is for a centre inlet pump but would have to be played around with to get the best layout for it but you get the idea.

From your experience is there anything that would stop this idea from working

cheers steve


----------



## seamad

How do you prevent channeling in the malt pipe with the camlock fitting ? Have thought about it on mine but can't resolve it. 
A centre rod through the MP would still be a good idea to hold down the top plate,its a bugger to contain.

Not changing mine now anyway, haha, done four consecutive brews without a single mod !
Sean


----------



## ArnieW

matho said:


> hey Arnie,
> 
> I really like the camlock idea, very clever, when Bonj mentioned he had an urn with a centre element I thought of stealing your idea but using 2 camlocks 120 degrees apart and a nut and bolt as a 3rd leg to hold the pot above the element, attached is a quick sketch trying to explain the idea.
> 
> View attachment 54482
> 
> 
> A centre rod could be added to the malt pipe to hold the filters in place and then when the malt pipe is removed the urn would be free of any centre rod.
> The pump layout is for a centre inlet pump but would have to be played around with to get the best layout for it but you get the idea.
> 
> From your experience is there anything that would stop this idea from working
> 
> cheers steve


One of the things I like about the camlock is that the malt pipe is lifted off the bottom of the kettle, and it means it is not so squeezy getting heating elements fitted. I used an old urn (one as old as me <_< - from the sixties that is) with two elements already fitted. They sit quite low and work nicely underneath the malt pipe.

I don't see any reason why your idea shouldn't work. It is effectively what I'm doing except I have a single central fitting. 

I don't have a threaded rod to tie down my top filter - rather I clip the 'lid' with filter onto the malt pipe using some aluminium. A picture tells it better than words so a recent blog entry shows what I mean (see link above).


----------



## ArnieW

seamad said:


> How do you prevent channeling in the malt pipe with the camlock fitting ? Have thought about it on mine but can't resolve it.
> A centre rod through the MP would still be a good idea to hold down the top plate,its a bugger to contain.
> 
> Not changing mine now anyway, haha, done four consecutive brews without a single mod !
> Sean


Hi Sean,

the filter at the bottom of my malt pipe (a domed stainless false bottom) has a small plate fitted in the middle to force the pump flow around it. I haven't tried a mash with dyes or anything like that to try and see what happens re channeling. I probably do get some and it would account for my 5-10% lower efficiency than a BrauMeister. But it is not something I'm concerned about. I just make sure I produce enough wort and have repeatable results and it is all sweet. The benefit from a simple way to construct it outweighs a few percent IMHO.

I had trouble containing the top filter until I figured out the clips on the lid. Now it works really well. I can relate to 'consecutive brews without a single mod'! I think after 18 months I'm now at the point where it is all dialled in and I wouldn't change anything - that is until I 'improve' on whatever thing I fiddle with next  

cheers, Arnie


----------



## spog

this reminds me of the guts of a tumble dryer,anyone reckon parts could be salvaged from a dryer to use for this application.....cheers........spog............uote name='Edak' date='May 7 2012, 07:26 PM' post='909181']
Yesterday I went into the Chefland shop again and I found a different perforated plate. This was $8.95 and because of the rolled edges is quite tough.

It fits almost perfectly as the top filter plate on the bigW pot. The lower plate will need to be trimmed down.









Today I went to Keg King after work and bought the rest of the fittings for the pump, now I need to do some cutting to get the skin fittings to the right length.

I also found the PERFECT candidate for the lock-down bar. They are the old 2nd hand keg "spikes", stainless with a perfect radius for a 10mm hole through the middle. I bought a few of them in all different sizes and will probably use one as the pick up bar, since they were only $2 each!!!!! I am sure they will come in handy for other parts of the system, maybe I could even give the whole thing some nice feet  You see one of the smallest ones in the back of the photo.

If you don't know what a keg spike is then Google Images It, it's the fourth image but the search is fun, you won't be disappointed... :0   
[/quote]


----------



## Robbo2234

I like the camlock idea,,, but I think I am missing somthing, how do you realese the locks? they would be inbetween the malt pipe and the kettle.


----------



## keifer33

You would remove the locking arms so gravity would hold them in place and create the seal.


----------



## Robbo2234

oh yeah! 
knew I was missing somthing!


----------



## ArnieW

keifer33 said:


> You would remove the locking arms so gravity would hold them in place and create the seal.


Yeah, what Keifer33 said.


----------



## Yorg

Edak said:


> I am struggling to find a good seal for the malt pipe. I have not been able to find anything suitable for the task at all.
> 
> The closest that I can think of (untested) would be the original BM MP seal gasket. The hole in the base of my MP is about 270mm so it's roughly the same size as the actual BM malt pipe, although I would have to modify the gasket because my hole has a horizontal edge rather than a vertical edge.
> 
> I thought I might use some silicone tube like matho but The only suitable tube I can find (which is food grade and slightly squishy) is the standard 12mm ID tube from Keg King. This is huge and will probably be unsuitable due to the fact that it will trap a lot of liquid. I don't even know for sure whether this is a large concern but I would be happier not to have to deal with a loose seal.
> 
> AARGH! This thing is doing my head in! Any other suggestions?
> 
> EDIT: And by the way those spears were perfect, they look schmick when holding down the MP and the other will perform well as a handle for picking up the MP. I just need to bend some of that threaded rod but have no idea how I will do that with the tools that I own..



Either Arnie's approach, or you may find post 575 of this thread interesting. Worked a charm for me just with the weight of the pipe. You need a flat bottom as opposed to the lip of the BM though.


----------



## dkaos

I might be An idiot, but the photos you provided didnt make any sense at all, and the drawings were hard to understand too. Picures of the actual vessel would be good.
Thanks!


----------



## MastersBrewery

Clints Gadgets said:


> I might be An idiot, but the photos you provided didnt make any sense at all, and the drawings were hard to understand too. Picures of the actual vessel would be good.
> Thanks!




which build clint?


----------



## dkaos

MastersBrewery said:


> which build clint?



Yorgs build, sorry I should have quoted but was on my phone.


----------



## MastersBrewery

oh ok well I've seen yorgs build on another forum, a while back, but basically he built up a line of silicone around the bottom opening of the Malt pipe in the shape of an upsidedown V, to do this he used some ply wood as form work. As with all simple ideas it sounds simple but he probably would have had to use some thing like petroleum jelly on the form so it didnt stick to that as well. Once done it would probably last a good while, and redoing it shouldn't be too much of a chore(could be wrong there though).

Edit:typo


----------



## angus_grant

Hi,

Am looking at picking up next bits and pieces for my build

Cam locks:
Female cam lock for base of main vessel






Male cam lock for malt pipe base





Would these be the correct type of camlocks? I wonder about the amount of thread sticking up into the malt pipe. May cause some issues with the bottom filter.

Is the bottom filter even necessary because I am using the cam-locks? Maybe one of those hop bazookas to stop grain getting back down the cam locks into the pump during a pump rest? Or do I need to some space between the malt pipe inlet and the grain to allow it to flow up through the whole grain bill?

And then is it a matter of removing the arms from the female cam lock so it doesn't lock when placing the malt pipe on. I've never worked with cam-locks so not quite sure how they work.

And that should leave enough thread below the main vessel to attach an elbow to then attach the silicon pipe to the pump. Bottom of my pot is about 4mm as a guess. I am wondering about using quick-disconnects for the pipe to pump to allow me to remove it during the boil

Off topic for Brau-clones: I noticed the same website have these bulk heads for plastic fermentors. I'm going to order two of those for my fermentors. I wonder if they would withstand keg pressures to get a temp straight from the beer. Pretty nifty. And can get rid of the glass of water sitting in the bottom of my fermentation fridge.


----------



## stux

angus_grant said:


> Off topic for Brau-clones: I noticed the same website have these bulk heads for plastic fermentors. I'm going to order two of those for my fermentors. I wonder if they would withstand keg pressures to get a temp straight from the beer. Pretty nifty. And can get rid of the glass of water sitting in the bottom of my fermentation fridge.



I use a beerbelly fermenter thermowell
http://www.beerbelly.com.au/ferment.html (bottom of page)

Just fits through a standard airlock oring in the fermenter lid and you can measure the actual wort temp


----------



## angus_grant

My fermentation fridge is a normal bar fridge with freezer section and I had to chop a small section out of the freezer (not through the coils though) so my airlock would fit. I wonder whether your thermowell would present the same problems.

With regards to the thermowell I posted, I wonder about catching it on something and ripping it out of the fermentor??


----------



## keifer33

On the thread inside the malt pipe with the fitting u could add a few washers as spacers on the thread before it goes into the malt pipe and leave just enough for the nut to go on the inside leaving minimal areas.


----------



## seamad

If you just have the cam fitting in your MP channeling is going to be a major issue, efficiency will be very low.

I understand that Arnie has a false bottom in his to break up the flow ( please correct if incorrect), and his efficiency is still under what I or other systems are getting ( 10-15% lower). 

Those camlocks look fine, just remove arms and they will fit but not lock. You may still get a small amount of leakage from them unless the MP is forced down, ifn so probably no concern anyway.

If I was going this way I would try an elbow on the camlock in the maltpipe with a nipple fitting, attach a length of silicone hose with a ss stopper in it to weigh it down and drill lots of holes in it.
Probably would work and wouldn't need any sort of bottom screen. Downside is that drainage would be very slow without some sort of falsie over it.
cheers
sean


----------



## stux

angus_grant said:


> My fermentation fridge is a normal bar fridge with freezer section and I had to chop a small section out of the freezer (not through the coils though) so my airlock would fit. I wonder whether your thermowell would present the same problems.
> 
> With regards to the thermowell I posted, I wonder about catching it on something and ripping it out of the fermentor??



Have you got a cm or two clearance above your fermenter lid? As long as the fermenter is deep enough to take the rest of the thermowell you don't need much clearance

On my 60L fermenter I lower the thermowell so that about 2cm is clear. On my 25L pails I keep 5 cm clear, but I try to position the bottom of the thermowell a little bit off the bottom of the fermenter


----------



## angus_grant

yeh, I figured as much with just using the cam-lock or bazooka-type device.

So if I am using cam locks, and still then using a false bottom/bottom filter, then the cam-locks just seem to be a great way to complicate the issue, restrict flow of mash, extra thingies to clean, something else to go wrong, and more expense. Scratched.

So back to seal on bottom and clamping malt pipe down. So what fittings are people using in main vessel to hook up to pump. I think Steve had some nice looking rounded fittings. And I will have to order a heating element next up so I can fit that as everything else will have to fit around it.

Slow progress is better than no progress. he he

Stux: not much gap when using heating pad, which will be getting more use as we get into winter here in Brisbane. Yes, it does get a bit cold here. Once a year.


----------



## bonj

Skin fittings, I think you're thinking of. Here's a link as an example. Probably cheaper to find a local supplier, but they have a good picture: http://www.cassellmarine.com.au/p/608179/s...n-fittings.html


----------



## matho

If I was going to use camlocks then I would use skin fittings on the bottom of the malt pipe and trim down the thread so that 'TYPE D' camlock could be screwed up on to the skin fitting thread and then use a 'TYPE F' fitting on the bottom of the urn.

I think that if you had a bottom filter plate then channelling would not be an issue because it would be about the same as a real BM, using camlocks would leave a little bit of wort in the bottom of the malt pipe just because the skin fittings are raised a bit.

cheers steve

edit LINKY


----------



## MastersBrewery

I think Arnies low efficiency is partly due to no sparge, now I haven't read his blog for probably a year so, relying on memory


----------



## angus_grant

Bingo, thanks Bonj.

Thanks for the link Steve. That place has quite a few connections and bits and pieces that look interesting. The actuated ball valves caught my eye, but I can't imagine they are all that cheap. And they can be something for version 4....

So I will be grabbing 2 * 3 piece ball valve (main vessel and pump outlet to slow flow if required), two skin fittings for pump inlet and outlet, 2 stainless elbows for bottom of skin, quick disconnects for pump, and heavy duty silicon tubing. That's about all I can afford to spend o beer stuff this month. Probably total around $200 or so.

Pump will be next month as it is a big ticket item. Still haven't decided whether I go all out and get a march pump. One of these has caught my eye as it is around 1/2 March pump price. But Craftbrewer have it listed but no stock, same as the heating element they have as well so makes me a bit wary. Has anyone used one of those pumps and any opinions?


----------



## Edak

I used the skin fittings which I bought from JustBoating for about $19 each.
I found the Linky for you

I cut them down to a suitable length, used one elbow and barb to connect hose to the pump inlet and, one barb and a ball valve (to control flow) on the pump outlet. All hoses are high temp (softie) 12mm silicon. All fittings and hose except for the skins were from Keg King and weren't too expensive. The pump doesn't have screw connections so I had to use hose and clamps.

EDIT: clarified my comment a bit


----------



## angus_grant

Cool, sound like I am on the right track. Or at least a track which has been trodden before. he he.

One thing I just realised. A 2400W element draws bang on 10A, but adding a pump in as well puts me over the 10A level of standard wiring. That cheaper pump I linked to before draws 1.1A and the March 809 pump draws 1.4A.

What are other people doing with regards to amp draw?


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> Cool, sound like I am on the right track. Or at least a track which has been trodden before. he he.
> 
> One thing I just realised. A 2400W element draws bang on 10A, but adding a pump in as well puts me over the 10A level of standard wiring. That cheaper pump I linked to before draws 1.1A and the March 809 pump draws 1.4A.
> 
> What are other people doing with regards to amp draw?



I think others are just letting it fly, running an extension cord, crossing fingers, using lower power element, etc.

I am going to run some tests by plugging in a bunch of items into the chosen outlet and see how much power I can draw before it trips something  Then I have a reasonable gauge. :icon_drunk:


----------



## angus_grant

I suppose one way to look at it is this: during mashing you are only occasionally drawing the full power of heating element + pump when toping up heat. If the pot is insulated during the mashing, this may only be necessary a couple of times during the mash.

You won't need the pump running during the boil so you are back to 10A on the heating element.

So I will need to code up my system to not run the pump when ramping up to mash temperature, and then perhaps run the pump a little bit to recirculate the water and make sure of an even temp distribution. Then start the actual mash process.


----------



## Edak

Plug in your 2000W vacuum cleaner and on the same circuit (not the same power point) turn on your 2200W Kmart kettle. Try a few combinations and let us know the results (which triggers a fuse/safety/whatever...). Pragmatic, but useful information to be learned.

Oh and you might want some replacement fuse wire if you try this.


----------



## seamad

My control box with the pid and ssr has outputs for the crown urn and march pump, never had a problem.


----------



## angus_grant

What element is in the urn?


----------



## NickB

All domestic power circuits should be 16A. It's the outlet that's rated to 10A, so just bear in mind pulling any more than this through a standard GPO may lead to overheating, but if it's only 11A you should be OK.

As mentioned, either test your circuit, or check in the meter box as to what you have fitted.


Cheers


----------



## seamad

Crown urn 2400 watt concealed element.
Control box has a 1.5 m lead, gets a little warm during the brew but far from hot. Same size lead to urn. Both ten amp leads.


----------



## hsv_069

Has anyone thought of using an old cornie with the top and bottom cut off for a malt pipe? Pros/cons?


----------



## seamad

Don't think diam is big enough. I can get 5-6kg grain in my bigw pot which has same volume as a corny ( 19L).
cheers
sean


----------



## kymba

Here's an option for getting around the opening in the bottom of the malt pipe - don't have one. This is just some fittings mounted through the top plate thing - a chopping board with a bunch of 1.5 mm holes. It is then retained with a couple of s/s rods that span between each handle.

I gave this a trial run yesterday and it worked quite well. After a 10 minute mash out I just flipped it upside down and let it drain until the boil started. Note that this is only a 7.8 litre stock pot used as the MP as I only want to do 10 - 12 litre batches, so I'm not sure how it would go on a full size unit, especially if you were sparging . Oh and it's mounted on 3 s/s bolts to hold the MP off of the element


----------



## Yorg

Sorry to be a little thick, but I don't quite get it, even after looking at your photo.
Can you do a quick sketch of how it works?


----------



## dkaos

kymba said:


> Here's an option for getting around the opening in the bottom of the malt pipe - don't have one. This is just some fittings mounted through the top plate thing - a chopping board with a bunch of 1.5 mm holes. It is then retained with a couple of s/s rods that span between each handle.
> 
> I gave this a trial run yesterday and it worked quite well. After a 10 minute mash out I just flipped it upside down and let it drain until the boil started. Note that this is only a 7.8 litre stock pot used as the MP as I only want to do 10 - 12 litre batches, so I'm not sure how it would go on a full size unit, especially if you were sparging . Oh and it's mounted on 3 s/s bolts to hold the MP off of the element
> 
> View attachment 54788




Looks promising mate, some more shots that show internals and how it operates without any wort in there would be sweet.


----------



## MastersBrewery

kymba said:


> Here's an option for getting around the opening in the bottom of the malt pipe - don't have one. This is just some fittings mounted through the top plate thing - a chopping board with a bunch of 1.5 mm holes. It is then retained with a couple of s/s rods that span between each handle.
> 
> I gave this a trial run yesterday and it worked quite well. After a 10 minute mash out I just flipped it upside down and let it drain until the boil started. Note that this is only a 7.8 litre stock pot used as the MP as I only want to do 10 - 12 litre batches, so I'm not sure how it would go on a full size unit, especially if you were sparging . Oh and it's mounted on 3 s/s bolts to hold the MP off of the element
> 
> View attachment 54788




yep got it when I first saw it! Simplicity in motion, still would like to see the internals, to see how you did it. How was your efficiencey? And have you tried step mashing with it yet? Of course with a HLT set up next to it would be really easy to do a really slow fly sparge. Nice work!

Edit: spelling


----------



## angus_grant

I've started getting my parts to start building but I wanted to pause and have a think about the recirculating part of the system.

Cutting a hole in the bottom of the malt pipe presents its own problems. You modify the main vessel for a single purpose and it is the expensive part of the system. The malt pipe is the cheap part of the system so I would prefer to mess with it. But everytime I think of a new way to do it, I run into a clanger.

My thinking was a normal false bottom and run a pipe from the side of the MP to the false bottom. A tube would then run down the outside of the malt pipe, connect up the tube on the inside. The false bottom should then provide even flow of the recirculating wort back up through the grains. Draining the liquid from the MP then presents a problem as there is no pathway out the bottom. Could have quick disconnect on outside tube and drain liquid out through there, but that is then a manual process and I'd like to automate the MP removal at some point.

I always end up coming back to the two-filter approach as per Braumeister. I like the idea of having as little of the wort outside the system losing heat, and then also losing as little liquid as possible. I might have a look at false bottoms and see if I can find one for the top of the malt pipe. Probably an expensive way to go. I've no idea on FB prices.


----------



## Feldon

Bonj said:


> Skin fittings, I think you're thinking of. Here's a link as an example. Probably cheaper to find a local supplier, but they have a good picture: http://www.cassellmarine.com.au/p/608179/s...n-fittings.html



Similar thing here but $12 cheaper: https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdeta...tAbsolutePage=1


----------



## MastersBrewery

angus _grant check out this thread post #28 http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=63866&st=0 I was thinking instead of that pipe going up the middle that it could hug the FB and side of the pot/MP.


----------



## bonj

Feldon said:


> Similar thing here but $12 cheaper: https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdeta...tAbsolutePage=1


nice one Feldon. I knew there would be cheaper ones around, but was after an example. I'll be bookmarking that page for my build.


----------



## kymba

Ok so heres some pics of all the bits

I was pretty disappointed with the cheapo element. Probably my own fault for running it full stick during mash ramps, but upon sober inspection the next day it looked like a jack russell turd and still has scorch marks on it after a sodium perc & caustic wash

might give it another shot with the element turned down to half-way, maybe that might reduce the buildup of crap

Fly sparging could be an option - with the MP upside down and a bit of hose attached to the internal hosetail the sparge water would enter above the grain bed and soak up all the goodies. could even make a tiny copper manifold that sits on the bottom of the pot, then when the MP is up-ended it would be on top of the grain bed. sounds like a lot of faffing about though


----------



## Edak

Feldon said:


> Similar thing here but $12 cheaper: https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdeta...tAbsolutePage=1






Bonj said:


> nice one Feldon. I knew there would be cheaper ones around, but was after an example. I'll be bookmarking that page for my build.



I mentioned this retailer earlier in this thread, I called them, checked that they had it, asked them to put it aside and caught a taxi there and when I got there they didn't f'ing have any! Apparently they only update their computer stock levels every 10 days? I WTF?? 

This is the QLD store so YMMV.


----------



## angus_grant

I picked up one of the stainless skin fittings last week from Whitworths and am still waiting for them to get in the other one. I did buy some spanky 316 stainless eye-bolts for lifting my malt pipe out.





I also purchased some 316 SS clamps for the top filter on the malt pipe. I'll may have to flatten out the hook part of it as I'm not sure whether the curve will let me put the top filter on and latch it down to the malt pipe. And the ring part of the M10 is too large to fit between MP and main pot so they are getting in the M8 and M6 to see if they will fit in. Should be good for the lifting load though.





So much swanky SS stuff there... B) I had to leave before I bought more stuff. They've been very helpful, also considering the Brisbane boat show was on last weekend.....


----------



## Maheel

Kymba 

how does the liquid get to the "bottom" of your "malt pipe" is there something joined to your barb in side the malt pot ?


----------



## kymba

Maheel said:


> how does the liquid get to the "bottom" of your "malt pipe" is there something joined to your barb in side the malt pot ?


I have a small length of silicon hose that jams onto the barb to get the wort to return close to the bottom, although I couldn't find it for the maiden voyage

Just thinking aloud, but I could even make a small copper sparge ring to sit on the bottom of the malt pot. When the malt pot is inverted it would then be on top of the grain. Would just need to funnel or pump some sparge water all up in there


----------



## lukec

Here is a link to short vid of my braumeisterssecond brew. Belgian strong ale.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0mbvcPpJU

The lid isn't finished yet but other that that all is going well. I'm pretty happy with it.


----------



## matho

lukec said:


> Here is a link to short vid of my braumeisterssecond brew. Belgian strong ale.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0mbvcPpJU
> 
> The lid isn't finished yet but other that that all is going well. I'm pretty happy with it.



Awesome job Luke, well done

cheers steve


----------



## [email protected]

Hey Guys,
There seems to be quite a few here who are planning to, or have already built something similar to Matho's Brewmeiser clone of a clone if I can call it that?

Is it worth those posting here or move to another post just their volume ideas?

IE: what size batch are they after, what size kettle and malt pipe, how many elements, wattage, how many pumps?

I am planning on

1. 60 l batches ideally but may end up with 40l
2. Kettle 100l? - Haven't got enough info yet
3. Malt pipe 50 l - as above
4. 2 elements, 2000w and 2600w
5. Two little brown pumps 24 v


Swampy


----------



## matho

Hey swampy it has been dicussed before In this thread, its a balancing act to get it right, the figures quoted in the PDF are just a guide and can be changed a bit also there is a reason for the braumeister being those dimensions. I would start by working out how much wort you want and whats the highest gravity you normally brew, there are ways of getting higher gravities out of a system with a few extra steps but you want your system to work well for the majority of brews. With the finished volume and gravity you can work out the grain required, and then the size of the malt pipe and so on, you will probably go back and forth a number of times before you settle on some sizes, then if you want to use pots you are going to have to find the best fit and go with them. Hope this helps you get started on working things out anymore questions just post it here in this thread.

cheers steve


----------



## [email protected]

matho said:


> Hey swampy it has been dicussed before In this thread, its a balancing act to get it right, the figures quoted in the PDF are just a guide and can be changed a bit also there is a reason for the braumeister being those dimensions. I would start by working out how much wort you want and whats the highest gravity you normally brew, there are ways of getting higher gravities out of a system with a few extra steps but you want your system to work well for the majority of brews. With the finished volume and gravity you can work out the grain required, and then the size of the malt pipe and so on, you will probably go back and forth a number of times before you settle on some sizes, then if you want to use pots you are going to have to find the best fit and go with them. Hope this helps you get started on working things out anymore questions just post it here in this thread.
> 
> cheers steve



Hi Matho,

OK, thanks for that....I obviously missed that page. That thread (and this one) have been great to read.
Looking forward to putting it all together.

Cheers

Swampy


----------



## angus_grant

Well I have finally started chopping up my pots. Some small progress, but not bad considering I have a 12 day old boy in the house.  

Will start chopping the bottom out of the malt pipe tomorrow, all things going well.

I will have a running blog on my build on my website and post summaries here.

The lifting points are 316 stainless eye bolts which I had to shorten down. I have not done a leak test yet, but can always use some silicon seals.

My malt pipe with the lifting points installed:






Inside shot of malt pipe:





Shot of the two pots:





I have about 45mm space between the pots for the pump inlet, ball valve, and heating element. Bit squishy but Matho fitted his into 35mm, so I should manage... <_<


----------



## matho

congrats on the son angus 

it was a tight squeeze I had to take a bit off the skin fitting to make it fit but with an extra 10mm you should be right, there is also a bit of space where the pot curves around to the bottom.

cheers steve


----------



## angus_grant

And some electrical work today. Got the heat sinks and 25A solid state relays installed into the control box. Still have a fair bit of electronics to install into the box:
-> USB plug in box and USB data acquisition device
-> data plug in box data and power lines for thermo-probe
-> One dual GPO for input and output voltage for heating element (voltage will be triggered by relay which will be controlled software based on temps)
-> One dual GPO for input and output voltage for recirculating pump (voltage will be triggered by relay which will be controlled by software based on mashing schedule)

So basically there will be control software on Windows laptop which read temps from temp probe wired into the USB device. Software will use these temps to control heating element and recirc pump.

Some pics of the relays installed.

Heat sinks installed on rear of control box (possibly overkill for the recirc pump as it will almost always be on during mash, but necessary for heating element which will be switched off and on fairly often)





SSRs inside the control box.





Blog post


----------



## Yorg

Angus, have you already talked about your windows based software approach elsewhere? If not, can you say some more about it, and where you are at with it?


----------



## angus_grant

Haven't talked about it anywhere else. I'll wait until I get a whole lot more along in the build before creating a separate thread.

I have a Windows laptop and have done away with the NetDuino. I have purchased a USB data acquisition device which has 8 outputs which can be used as an Analogue or Digital inputs/outputs. I can also wire up a DS18B20 to one of the inputs and the board firmware reads the data signal and returns a temperature. So no need to bugger around with 1-pin communication, converting data, etc, etc.

The USB device creates a virtual COM device when plugged in so all commands and data is processed over the COM device. All data returned is in ASCII (you can tell the board to return data in binary). Commands are sent to the pins using a set of 1 character constants defined by the board manufacturer.

The control software is a C# application. dotNET has fairly nice support for COM devices. At the moment it is a very basic application which reads the temp and turns one of the solid state relays on until a target temp is reached and then turns off the relay.

I am going to wire up one of the GPOs tomorrow and then plug in our kitchen kettle. I have some sample C# PID code so will muck around with raising the kettle temp to various target temps and see how the accuracy of the PID code is. I am sure I will have a fair bit of mucking around with the various constants to get the PID code accurate. And then go through the whole process again when I get the heating element installed into the main pot.

USB device. JayCar also have a USB data acquisition kit which you have to solder up yourself.


----------



## angus_grant

man, where has the edit option gone?? I just changed over from my Mac to the Windows laptop and the Edit option is not there.

Code example for switching on Channel 4 which is the control signal for the relay:
[codebox]if (mCurrentTemperature < Convert.ToDecimal(this.txtTarget.Text))

{

IO8ComDevice.Write(Constants.IO8.Channel4.DigitalHigh);

}[/codebox]

Code example for reading temp from device in ComDevice_DataReceived event handler (temp is returned as "28.95?C")
[codebox]string DataReceived = IO8ComDevice.ReadLine();
mCurrentTemperature = Convert.ToDecimal(DataReceived.Split("?".ToCharArray())[0].ToString());[/codebox]


----------



## Edak

I am finally back home from an extended holiday in NYC and need to get this thing finished so I can brew some beer.

The biggest things I have left to do are the element and the base, but I still can't decide on whether I will get a 2250W or 2500W element. I am a little concerned about using the 2500W element and the pump on one power outlet, but I am also concerned about whether the 2250W element will have a slow ramp time for my 20L batches. I will buy it from TEE because Matho believes them to be a suitable supplier and they have been friendly to date.

Regarding the base, I have no welding skills/experience and am very curious about whether I could make a base using any other method. I have thus far spared no expense on using SS for everything else and need to build the base before I build the electronics enclosure.

Would like a little motivation/assistance here. :beer:


----------



## Sam England

Edak said:


> The biggest things I have left to do are the element and the base, but I still can't decide on whether I will get a 2250W or 2500W element. I am a little concerned about using the 2500W element and the pump on one power outlet, but I am also concerned about whether the 2250W element will have a slow ramp time for my 20L batches. I will buy it from TEE because Matho believes them to be a suitable supplier and they have been friendly to date.
> 
> Regarding the base, I have no welding skills/experience and am very curious about whether I could make a base using any other method. I have thus far spared no expense on using SS for everything else and need to build the base before I build the electronics enclosure.



Arvo Edak,
I'm sourcing the parts at the moment as well and going along the lines of the Braubushka?? concept. This allows a gap under the malt pipe and you don't need to clamp it down through the centre of the pot. I'm then using 2 x 2200W elements controlled with separate SSR's so that I can have them wired on two power loops to keep the amperage down. My rig is also going to be a double keg batch (~40L), but capable of doing single 25L batches as well which means I can just turn one of the elements off or not use it at all. Still designing at this point, but it looks like it could be a goer. As for a base I'm planning on putting it on a designated trolley and building a secure enclosure with a PC fan on the heatsinks, so I can't really help you with the base design.

Good luck with it.

Cheers,
Sam


----------



## Edak

Blue Baggers said:


> Arvo Edak,
> I'm sourcing the parts at the moment as well and going along the lines of the Braubushka?? concept. This allows a gap under the malt pipe and you don't need to clamp it down through the centre of the pot. I'm then using 2 x 2200W elements controlled with separate SSR's so that I can have them wired on two power loops to keep the amperage down. My rig is also going to be a double keg batch (~40L), but capable of doing single 25L batches as well which means I can just turn one of the elements off or not use it at all. Still designing at this point, but it looks like it could be a goer. As for a base I'm planning on putting it on a designated trolley and building a secure enclosure with a PC fan on the heatsinks, so I can't really help you with the base design.
> 
> Good luck with it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Sam



Thanks Blue, I have already finished all of the design and assembly of the pot, malt pipe, fittings and pump so I can't change my design now.
Perhaps a 2250W will be suitable but I didn't want to go any lower than the braumester (2400W) and wanted a nice trustworthy element which I can be sure will last many brews without tainting them. I suppose that I could run the risk of using a 2500W one, after all there are many other appliances which use 2500W and are available here in Australia. I am betting that they don't require special power considerations...


----------



## ArnieW

Edak said:


> Thanks Blue, I have already finished all of the design and assembly of the pot, malt pipe, fittings and pump so I can't change my design now.
> Perhaps a 2250W will be suitable but I didn't want to go any lower than the braumester (2400W) and wanted a nice trustworthy element which I can be sure will last many brews without tainting them. I suppose that I could run the risk of using a 2500W one, after all there are many other appliances which use 2500W and are available here in Australia. I am betting that they don't require special power considerations...


Hi Edak,

I've been running an electric kettle for about 10 years. A decent rolling boil on 40-50 litres can be achieved with a 3600W element, and 2400W for 20 litres gives the added benefit of faster ramping times and scope for a more vigorous boil if needed.

I don't think the 2250W element would be too small, but the 2500W won't be over the top either.

A correctly wired 10 A GPO circuit will have multiple outlets on a wire and breaker rated at 16A. While there is not meant to be any single device drawing more than 10A (2400W), it means you can run a 2400W heater and a desk lamp on the same circuit without any issue. Running that heater and an electric jug on the same one will trip the breaker though.

So under normal circumstances, either of those elements and a pump and a power supply with arduino etc will be fine.

There are two things that I consider vital for any electric brewery - breakers (not fuses) and residual current detector to ensure any earth leakage doesn't run via the brewer's ticker.

And the usual warnings apply <_< - if anyone is unsure about 240V, don't mess with it. Get a mate who does know to help and steer clear of the brew until the job is safely done. B)


----------



## angus_grant

I was wondering about the range of the heating element as well. The way I figure it is that
-> yes, circuits can take more than 10A being drawn, but not much more.
-> yes, kettles can draw more than 10 amps, but only for 5 minutes while they boil the water.
-> standard GPOs are rated for 10 amps

We are going to be boiling for 60 minutes flat out (at least), and there is more chance that in that 60 minutes something else may draw power on the same circuit and trip the entire circuit than the 5 minutes for the kettle. And the circuit being run at over 10amps for that hour is placing strain on wiring, GPOs, etc, etc. I am going to stick to a 2400W element.

Better to be safe than sorry, or at least having to switch the circuit breaker back on again, get the system to start up from where it stopped, etc...

And no-one has mentioned insurance. I've no idea if running a 15amp boiler on a 10amp circuit voids your insurance. But the boiler being home made (10A or 15A) probably voids insurance anyways.. :huh:


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> And no-one has mentioned insurance. I've no idea if running a 15amp boiler on a 10amp circuit voids your insurance. But the boiler being home made (10A or 15A) probably voids insurance anyways.. :huh:



Probably if it can be deemed to be the cause of the loss of property..


----------



## Edak

I have finally decided that I would get the H03797 from Thermal Products in Thomastown. It's about $138 in GST, 2400W and will be bent to my specification. The other crowd (TEE) wanted to charge me about $170 plus an additional $35 to pick up an element from them and that's highway robbery.

The one I am picking up is made of incoloy 800 so will be perfectly suited for wort.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Edak said:


> I have finally decided that I would get the H03797 from Thermal Products in Thomastown. It's about $138 in GST, 2400W and will be bent to my specification. The other crowd (TEE) wanted to charge me about $170 plus an additional $35 to pick up an element from them and that's highway robbery.
> 
> The one I am picking up is made of incoloy 800 so will be perfectly suited for wort.




would you have a link to thermal products?


----------



## Malted

MastersBrewery said:


> would you have a link to thermal products?




Bottom of the page: http://www.thermalproducts.com.au/catering...quipheader.html


----------



## hosko11

Edak said:


> I have finally decided that I would get the H03797 from Thermal Products in Thomastown. It's about $138 in GST, 2400W and will be bent to my specification. The other crowd (TEE) wanted to charge me about $170 plus an additional $35 to pick up an element from them and that's highway robbery.
> 
> The one I am picking up is made of incoloy 800 so will be perfectly suited for wort.



Hey Edak,
I don't think they come with bushes, so you'll need to buy their brass bushes if you haven't already. I tried various Swagelok compression fittings and none of their range was a perfect fit for the element sheath.
Cheers,
Hosko


----------



## Edak

Ppp said:


> Hey Edak,
> I don't think they come with bushes, so you'll need to buy their brass bushes if you haven't already. I tried various Swagelok compression fittings and none of their range was a perfect fit for the element sheath.
> Cheers,
> Hosko



Quoted from their sales staff:
"The element is supplied with bushes and the terminals are made of nickel plated steel."
I think that the bushes are brass and the nickel plated is the actual terminal. Will report on this when I get it


----------



## hosko11

Edak said:


> Quoted from their sales staff:
> "The element is supplied with bushes and the terminals are made of nickel plated steel."
> I think that the bushes are brass and the nickel plated is the actual terminal. Will report on this when I get it



Actually that makes sense. The price you're paying is about $20-$30 more than I paid when I brought one, so they've included the bushes in the price. All good. Good luck with it.


----------



## Malted

In the interests of community minded information sharing:

*THERMAL PRODUCTS 2000W ELEMENT
*
Here's the guts of an email quote I just got from them:

Item code: H03796 - 2000W ELEM 1755MM 
46.5KW/m2 800 - in stock and can be used for your specific process. (I calculate this as 30W per square inch).
We can bend the element to your specifications, please e-mail us a drawing of specs and we can bend to suit. 
Price on the element is $121.71 + gst and freight to South Australia $20.00 + gst.

So that would be $155.88 bent to specifications and delivered (to SA in my instance).


----------



## Malted

*FILTER PLATES - PERFORATED S/STEEL

*2mm thickness (not 0.5mm like RS Components)
3mm round holes, 5.0 mm pitch 
304 grade stainless
32% Open area

The price for 2 off lasercut discs 300mm diameter in 2mm (2mm S/S304) = $175 ea. 
The price for 9 off lasercut discs 300mm diameter in 2mm (2mm S/S304) = $50 ea. 

Looks pretty good to me, for 9 of the buggers. So once I confirm the diameter I want, looks like I will have a few spare + 1 false bottom up for grabs. Remember, this is 2mm in thickness (considerably thicker than normal false bottoms) so $50 sounds pretty good.

Edit: just checking with the supplier because the codes don't match their catalogue. I am thinking 3mm holes might just be a bit too big. 2mm holes with 1.5mm sheet might be better, I don't think they do 2mm holes in 2mm sheet.


----------



## matho

malted, try for the thickest you can get, mine are about 1 - 1.2 mm and they still flex when I mill my grain too fine, last time I did it the braumiser ended up spewing mash all over the kitchen .

cheers steve


----------



## Malted

matho said:


> malted, try for the thickest you can get, mine are about 1 - 1.2 mm and they still flex when I mill my grain too fine, last time I did it the braumiser ended up spewing mash all over the kitchen  .
> 
> cheers steve



Yeah the real deal BM filter plates are about 2mm thick and you'd need to be Tarzan to bend them.


----------



## Cocko

Surely Tony has more progress to post a pic of?

Tony?


----------



## Edak

Malted said:


> Yeah the real deal BM filter plates are about 2mm thick and you'd need to be Tarzan to bend them.



What are the specs on the original BM filter plate? I didn't think that the holes were that small because there is also the other finer filter mesh in there.

at $50 a pop I would be interested!


----------



## angus_grant

I am more leaning towards getting some filter plates and it doesn't really matter what size the holes are. I will then order replacement Braumeister filters at $22 each which will actually do the filtering. Or find some cheaper SS mesh which I will have to cut to size

$100 for the two filter plates with holes which may or may not be the right size seems a bit much for a "Braumiser"..


----------



## Malted

Edak said:


> What are the specs on the original BM filter plate? I didn't think that the holes were that small because there is also the other finer filter mesh in there.
> 
> at $50 a pop I would be interested!


No they are not that small and yes they have a mesh screen too. 

I was thinking about what Wessmith said here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=868288. I thought to myself, self if you could get holes small enough that would flow ok yet be a plate thick enough not to buckle under pumping pressure, maybe you could do away with the mesh screen and just use filter plates? It doesn't look like a feasible option unless I got some custom manufactured perforated steel and it would seem to be cost prohibitive - I am not about to engage Chineses manufactures and enter into a bulk buy because there would be no standard size to suit everyone. 
I want to keep the plates at 2mm thick so the holes would need to be 3mm - which to my mind would let cracked grains through and thus require a mesh screen too. For me the thickness of the plate is more important than the hole size. 

I will measure up my 50L Braumeister plates and report back in a day or so.


----------



## matho

so after my last brewday when the braumiser spewed the mash all over the kitchen I have decided to strengthen the top filter plate, so I have welded 2 right angled bit of metal to form a cross





now that should stop the top filter plate from bending 

cheer steve


----------



## AlexL

matho said:


> so after my last brewday when the braumiser spewed the mash all over the kitchen I have decided to strengthen the top filter plate, so I have welded 2 right angled bit of metal to form a cross
> 
> View attachment 55361
> 
> 
> now that should stop the top filter plate from bending
> 
> cheer steve



Nice and sturdy there!

Any particular reason why your last mash went flying but none have previously? I brewed last weekend and had 3.4kg sitting in my 11L mashtun, this was certainly pushing the limits but the filter stayed put.

Alex


----------



## Sam England

If you're after a cheaper option to fit with the "Miser" brief, I'm using the bottom of one of the Big W pots to provide extra strength to the top mesh as I've got two pots for 40L batches. Cut it off just above the radius and then cut some slots through it similar to Matho's top plate. Install it upside down so the outer rim holds the outer edge of the mesh down which is where you'll get leaks if you're going to have any. You'll need to put a couple of bolts or weld some ribs in either the cut pot or the mesh to match the offset and support it in the middle, but this will allow you to use thinner cheaper mesh. I haven't built it yet, so can't show pics, but I can't foresee any problems doing it this way especially as I'm cutting the bottom off the second pot anyway.
Cheers,
Sam


----------



## matho

I was playing around with my mill gap and went too fine and produced way too much flour, which clogged the filter mesh causing the violent expulsion of the mash. It had nothing to do with how much grain I had in there as I was going for a 1.045 beer.

cheers steve


----------



## angus_grant

no idea on prices but these guys may have something that could work: http://www.metalmesh.com.au/gallery/viewgallery/16

Have a look at the 4th image along (pressure leaf filters). Hmm, looks interesting. I may give them a call and see if they are open on the weekend. If not, I have a day off next week and may wander out to their Brisbane office to see what they have that might be suitable and within price range..


----------



## Malted

angus_grant said:


> no idea on prices but these guys may have something that could work: http://www.metalmesh.com.au/gallery/viewgallery/16
> 
> Have a look at the 4th image along (pressure leaf filters). Hmm, looks interesting. I may give them a call and see if they are open on the weekend. If not, I have a day off next week and may wander out to their Brisbane office to see what they have that might be suitable and within price range..



All the sizing info is available on their website.

There is a downloadable PDF document on this page that lists hole sizes, thicknesses etc of the perforated steel they sell. Small holes = thin sheet. http://www.metalmesh.com.au/perforated-stainless-steel
3.0 mm holes are the smallest they can do in 2mm thick 304 S/Steel perforated sheet, any smaller and the sheet has to be thinner...
h34r: 

Likewise there is a pdf here on woven stainless mesh sizing: http://www.metalmesh.com.au/stainless-steel-mesh
Welded S/Steel mesh starts at an apperature of 5.5mm.


----------



## kymba

Have any of you got a quote for laser cutting? They supply the stainless and you aren't left with any offcuts. Just remember you pay more per entry

thinking of a disc with 4 lines cut in like this, surely you wouldn't need any other filtering plates apart from this. and get them to just etch the centre point so you can drill it out yourself later


----------



## angus_grant

So go to this page: http://www.metalmesh.com.au/stainless-steel-mesh

Then click on the Hollander Weave woven wire. I don't know what they mean by the nominal filter rating in the pdf document but that is listed for finer filtering of liquids.

Quote from website: "Hollander weave is used for fine filtration of liquid products. Filter leaves can also be remeshed in any mesh"


----------



## matho

the modified top filter plate worked a treat, didn't move 

cheers steve


----------



## seamad

Dont think anything could bend that plate , congrats. You must be pretty happy with it now. Interesting to see the number of these around and the differing approaches made.
Cheers
sean


----------



## matho

yeah I'm really happy with how its working now, I have got used to brewing on it and have it well sorted. I just brewed an APA and it took about 3 1/2 hrs from start to yeast pitched and braumiser cleaned up.
It's cool seeing all the different style units being made, there is always more than one way to skin a cat

cheers steve


----------



## matho

everytime I brew on the braumiser I'm amazed at the clarity of the wort after it has been mashing for an hour





its such an easy system to brew on.

cheers steve


----------



## notung

Hi all. I've been really interested in the filter plate discussions here lately. There are lots of ideas and I love how people are striving to design/build the simplest, least expensive filtering plates they can (including maybe making it just a single piece of stainless). The image of wort projecting all over matho's kitchen has been quite thought-provoking it seems...

I have been wondering if one could even skip the bottom filter plates in the malt pipe. I am thinking about using ArnieW's idea, sealing a malt pipe to the pump outlet at the base of the kettle using camlocks (arms removed). To avoid channelling issues within the malt pipe as the wort is pumped up through the grain, maybe you could hook a copper manifold up to the bulkhead at the bottom. With some slots made in the manifold towards the bottom of the malt pipe, the water/wort would be distributed evenly in the vessel and flood up through the grain to be filtered at the top. I'm thinking a system like that could deliver reasonable efficiency and be pretty easy to clean up. Maybe those bottom filter plates aren't strictly needed.

Shoot me down if I'm wrong or have missed something. What do you think?


----------



## angus_grant

I had a look at the camlock system and eventually decided against it, it was a close decision though. I can always add cam-locks to the system because the malt pipe (Big W pot) is the cheap part of the system and I can buy another one for $20 and trial a cam-lock system.

Here's quick thoughts on why not: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=912609


----------



## roller997

Notung,
I would think that the bottom filter plates are quite useful if you want to get the remaining liquid out of your malt pipe as you lift that up without grains getting into your wort?


While there are two trains of thought, I prefer the idea filling the malt pipe from the bottom. It is a neat looking solution and I suspect with the idea below, it might be more cost effective and possibly simpler than feeding the wort through the top of the malt pipe. 

An option to seal the malt pipe I have been thinking about is to use a 50 liter keg inside a 98 liter pot.

The idea would be to just simply have a hole in the centre and to use a hollow silicone bung to get the wort to be pumped into the bottom of the keg. A false bottom with possibly a fine filter mesh would be used to disperse the incoming wort through the grain bed. This arrangement should hopefully stop any grains from returning into the kettle once I lift the malt pipe up with some sort of pulley.
At the top I would hope for a 2mm thick false bottom with the possible use of mesh to stop any grains from getting to the kettle side of the setup. 

The challenge would be to centre the keg when you insert it, however 3-4 angled sections welded to the bottom of the pot might achieve this but this is one of the aspects I am still looking for ideas.


Cheers

Roller


----------



## ArnieW

angus_grant said:


> I had a look at the camlock system and eventually decided against it, it was a close decision though. I can always add cam-locks to the system because the malt pipe (Big W pot) is the cheap part of the system and I can buy another one for $20 and trial a cam-lock system.
> 
> Here's quick thoughts on why not: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=912609


I've been thinking about the camlock system and figure there is a way to make it even simpler/cheaper (in the spirit of BrauMiser).  

Using one of these skin fittings in the bottom of the kettle, you could presumably just have a piece of open ended pipe (stainless or copper) that slots in from the bottom of the malt pipe. I've not tried it in practice, but think it could work and would be very simple.


----------



## angus_grant

If you mean the open ended pipe is attached to the malt pipe and slots down into the skin fitting: that skin fitting has some very small "posts" (very similar to post-lock kegs) so you could then look at slotting the open-ended pipe as a locking system for the malt pipe.

But probably better off removing the "posts" from the skin fitting and just relying on gravity sealing, much like cam-locks do.

If the malt pipe is elevated above the bottom of the main vessel, then things become a lot simpler with regards to the heating element. You can then have a normal heating element which you would have to slightly offset due to the skin fitting being in the centre of the main vessel, but shouldn't be a big deal. But then no need to a custom bent heating element, and there are plenty of cheaper stainless steel heating elements available.

Hmm, I will have a deeper think about this setup.. I have two of those skin fittings already and will have a play. Nice thinking Arnie!


----------



## seamad

The bottom filter plate is not a problem, in my case anyway, just cut the bottom out of a bigw pot and siliconed it in,allows for good draining and easy to clean. Imo the challenge with these systems is the bottom seal and the top filter plate. The two main choices are a gasket seal for the pot or a bulkhead fitting, both have pluses and minus' . I went the gasket type approach because my concealed element urn seemed to suit that approach better, and i think marginally better effeciency as well.
With the top plate you have the choice of one plate ,or as i have a seperate filter plate and securing top plate. I tried several approaches to just a single fi,ter/plate but was never entirely happy with it as the pressure build up is not to be underestimated...

After much trial and error im pretty happy now, like matho said, its great to watch as that initially cloudy wort become bright and clear, even betterthat you can mash in and leave it do its thing until lifting the pot at mash out.

Cheers
sean


----------



## ArnieW

angus_grant said:


> If you mean the open ended pipe is attached to the malt pipe and slots down into the skin fitting: that skin fitting has some very small "posts" (very similar to post-lock kegs) so you could then look at slotting the open-ended pipe as a locking system for the malt pipe.
> 
> But probably better off removing the "posts" from the skin fitting and just relying on gravity sealing, much like cam-locks do.
> 
> If the malt pipe is elevated above the bottom of the main vessel, then things become a lot simpler with regards to the heating element. You can then have a normal heating element which you would have to slightly offset due to the skin fitting being in the centre of the main vessel, but shouldn't be a big deal. But then no need to a custom bent heating element, and there are plenty of cheaper stainless steel heating elements available.
> 
> Hmm, I will have a deeper think about this setup.. I have two of those skin fittings already and will have a play. Nice thinking Arnie!


I think one possible issue to consider is flow rate, but if a little brown pump cannot deal with the small size of pipe inside a skin fitting, I'm sure larger skin fittings are available too.

In my case I've got a March pump and I need to restrict flow to balance the system.


----------



## angus_grant

ArnieW said:


> I think one possible issue to consider is flow rate, but if a little brown pump cannot deal with the small size of pipe inside a skin fitting, I'm sure larger skin fittings are available too.
> 
> In my case I've got a March pump and I need to restrict flow to balance the system.



Once you lift the malt pipe off the base of the main vessel then skin size becomes somewhat irrelevant. My current design restricts the size of the skin fitting due to the malt pipe sealing to the base and only allowing certain area between malt pipe and main vessel for the fitting to fit. Matho had to grind one of his down a bit to fit in that space.

Whitworths have 3/4", 1", and 1&1/2" fittings so there are larger choices available. Can always go larger size after initial design if flow rate is not good enough.


----------



## hosko11

Given the current topic of discussion around filter plates, does anyone have any insight or ideas why the Braumiester has a floating top filter plate? By floating I mean it can move up and down the centre rod.

What would the benefits be for this? The only thing I can think of is it may provide a nice even and slightly compacted grain bed if you wanted to chase those last few points with a batch sparge after lifting the pipe.

I've been pondering this for sometime and it seems a lot of the current builds are going with a fixed plate at the top of the malt pipe as it's easier to implement. I have 12" SS discs (3mm) to use for filter plates, but the pot (to be used as the malt pipe) has an ID of 300mm, so would need to grind the plate diameter down by about 5mm to make it floating.

So it's come down to effort vs reward. What would be gained by making it floating vs fixed??


----------



## seamad

Can't see any advantage to floating. Also floating would only work on a cylinder, a pot has a small amount of flare and also the lid lip , both of which make a good seal unlikely.


----------



## Edak

Looking good there Steve, nice and clear.

Unfortunately I didn't get to the element place on the weekend due to a big Friday night and having to drive friends to get their cars in the morning over the other side of town. Oh well, perhaps next weekend.

I should get all of the rest of my SS fabrication done in a fortnight, so hopefully I can deal with the solid plates by then.


----------



## notung

Roller997 said:


> Notung,
> I would think that the bottom filter plates are quite useful if you want to get the remaining liquid out of your malt pipe as you lift that up without grains getting into your wort?



Yes indeed, that's a good point. Thanks roller.



ArnieW said:


> I've been thinking about the camlock system and figure there is a way to make it even simpler/cheaper (in the spirit of BrauMiser).
> 
> Using one of these skin fittings in the bottom of the kettle, you could presumably just have a piece of open ended pipe (stainless or copper) that slots in from the bottom of the malt pipe. I've not tried it in practice, but think it could work and would be very simple.



That's quite a simple idea, you're right, but great! It sounds like a nice way to secure the malt pipe in place within the kettle too. I _could_ be thinking about putting this connection between malt pipe and kettle (skin fitting & pipe or camlock system) to one side of the kettle, which in my case will probably be a 30L birko urn. There is a fair bit of wiring for element and controller underneath centre of urn, plus it might be prudent to keep the electronics towards the front underside of my system and wall off the back underside section for plumbing/pump, etc. I figure that slotting the malt pipe in even off centre should work as long as there is help and support from some lugs at the top of the malt pipe (to hold it steady within kettle).



angus_grant said:


> Whitworths have 3/4", 1", and 1&1/2" fittings so there are larger choices available. Can always go larger size after initial design if flow rate is not good enough.



I am starting to like this idea more and more. Thanks for that.


----------



## Malted

Malted said:


> I want to keep the plates at 2mm thick so the holes would need to be 3mm - which to my mind would let cracked grains through and thus require a mesh screen too. For me the thickness of the plate is more important than the hole size.
> 
> I will measure up my 50L Braumeister plates and report back in a day or so.



How about that! It is certainly more than 'a day or so' but I canfirm the genuine BM filter plates appear to be 2mm thick with 3mm holes!


----------



## AlexL

A question to those using a central threaded rod to hold your malt pipe in place.

Have you found a good way to reduce the amount of grain that gets flushed out the malt pipe when you lift it? I have found, especially with a smaller grain bill, that I can end up with a fair amount of grain in the wort.

Alex


----------



## dmac80

AlexL said:


> A question to those using a central threaded rod to hold your malt pipe in place.
> 
> Have you found a good way to reduce the amount of grain that gets flushed out the malt pipe when you lift it? I have found, especially with a smaller grain bill, that I can end up with a fair amount of grain in the wort.
> 
> Alex



I don't have too much of a problem with it Alex, get a little in there, but not heaps. I made sure i welded a snug fitting bit of tube to go in the centre of my lower mash screen to keep it square and allow it to still run up and down the rod. If it gets crooked in the malt pipe you'll lose grain for sure. That and the lower screen is a nice fit in the malt pipe also.

Cheers
Dan


----------



## domfergo

so i have just started to put some thought into making one up for myself and was hoping for a bit of advice

I have been using a 70l robinox pot sourced from beerbelly many moons ago for Biab. I am going to use this pot in the build

I am trying to work out a system similiar to the orginal BM of having two malt pipes so that i can do single and double 21L batches. I am thinking that i will research into getting the malt pipes made up and would like to be able to use the filter plates interchangeable between the two different sized malt pipes.

Using the min water level spreadsheet supplied by angus_grant earlier in the thread i have used a 35cm diameter malt pipe inside the 45cm pot (for 4cm clearence the way round for the element). The problem i can see arising from this is that the single batch malt pipe with be quite small in height. For a 25l volume pipe @ 6.8kg max grain bill it comes to only 26cm height. 

Can anyone see any problems with this?

For the double batch malt pipe i using the same diameter for the filter plates it comes to 43cm height(2cm below top of kettle) @ 41L volume and max grain bill of 11.3kg.... which seems about right

here is a copy of the spread sheet with my values included. I hope angus does not mind but i have included a few extra fields to see what happens to water volume when malt pipe is removed and boil is completed.

Volume spread sheet

note that the values are calulated on the minium water required to keep the element covered


Quick question regarding the element. I need to be able to run this off a normal house hold powerpoint(10amp?). What would be the largest possible wattage for the element to achieve a boil volume of up to say up to 50L on this circuit. I am thinking of using a march pump 815 which will be coupled with mathos controller.

Thanks in advance

Dom


----------



## Edak

Massatomic said:


> so i have just started to put some thought into making one up for myself and was hoping for a bit of advice
> 
> I have been using a 70l robinox pot sourced from beerbelly many moons ago for Biab. I am going to use this pot in the build
> 
> I am trying to work out a system similiar to the orginal BM of having two malt pipes so that i can do single and double 21L batches. I am thinking that i will research into getting the malt pipes made up and would like to be able to use the filter plates interchangeable between the two different sized malt pipes.
> 
> Using the min water level spreadsheet supplied by angus_grant earlier in the thread i have used a 35cm diameter malt pipe inside the 45cm pot (for 4cm clearence the way round for the element). The problem i can see arising from this is that the single batch malt pipe with be quite small in height. For a 25l volume pipe @ 6.8kg max grain bill it comes to only 26cm height.
> 
> Can anyone see any problems with this?
> 
> For the double batch malt pipe i using the same diameter for the filter plates it comes to 43cm height(2cm below top of kettle) @ 41L volume and max grain bill of 11.3kg.... which seems about right
> 
> here is a copy of the spread sheet with my values included. I hope angus does not mind but i have included a few extra fields to see what happens to water volume when malt pipe is removed and boil is completed.
> 
> Volume spread sheet
> 
> note that the values are calulated on the minium water required to keep the element covered
> 
> 
> Quick question regarding the element. I need to be able to run this off a normal house hold powerpoint(10amp?). What would be the largest possible wattage for the element to achieve a boil volume of up to say up to 50L on this circuit. I am thinking of using a march pump 815 which will be coupled with mathos controller.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Dom



Hi Dom, 

wow, a 70L pot to get a double batch would be very cool although challenging. When you scale up like this you have more space for your element(s) and plumbing, but you may (like the original BM50) want to have two inlets for the pump to get a good even flow. Also, if you are looking to boil up 50L then you won't get a good roller with a typical 10A (2400W) element. You will probably need to run off two power points connected to different circuits (typically not the same wall plate), or get a sparky in to install an outlet with higher power or another circuit entirely.


----------



## domfergo

Hmmm, the first hurdle....

The reason for the 10amp is that I do not own my own house and move around quite a bit with work. I would love it to be a case of plug and play on standard house wiring. 

Would the 2400w element be enough to sustain a rolling boil? May be a separate immersion jobby might help with the ramp to boil. Though this would defeat the purpose of having a semi automated system. Other options?

Would insulation of the kettle be enough to make up the efficiency problem?


----------



## domfergo

Interesting catalog! Check out the u + v shapes with or without bulbs. No prices but may be a good option for selling the malt pipe!



Silicon seals


----------



## Edak

OK!

So I have assembled and leak-tested my brau-thingo and I have photos!




































I have NOT tested any operation yet, I was too excited to take photos first. This means I still have NO idea whether the coil works or not 

WOOT!


----------



## Edak

more pics...


----------



## bonj

Nice work! That looks awesome.


----------



## ArnieW

oooo :icon_cheers: 

That is a thing of beauty! I wouldn't have been so patient as you - a test run before pics! Well done Edak.


----------



## matho

absolutely brilliant Edak, I really like the stand

cheers steve


----------



## Malted

Edak said:


>


Your brewer's assistant looks highly skeptical!


----------



## notung

Edak said:


> more pics...



Congratulations Edak on the successful build so far. Thanks for sharing. It is looking fantastic. I have a couple of questions to ask you:

1. Did you mention you were getting pro stainless fabrication done for the base? Simple design and looks really effective. If you paid to have that done, how much did they charge?
2. I know your malt pipe is 19L BigW but what's the volume of your outer pot?
3. Did you end up using the cut down silicone hose to seal the malt pipe like matho?

Your test runs will be great fun - enjoy!


----------



## notung

What's the best, cheapest source for the stainless bolts and washers people are using as part of their builds?


----------



## Malted

notung said:


> What's the best, cheapest source for the stainless bolts and washers people are using as part of their builds?



Cheapest = eBay from China
Best = not eBay from China


----------



## blotto

That looks great! Good job!


----------



## Edak

Cheers guys, I feel so good to have made it to this point. I am very happy with the look of it.

Malted, that is one of my dogs (he is Desmond) he will walk around and watch me all day as long as I look busy he will just observe.

Notung, I came up with the design after creating a prototype out of cheap gal sheet. It was technically simple, but it is solid as a rock. I prepared the parts, bends, cuts, etc and I had the base TIG welded by a friend of mine who is a fabricator and normally builds race cars. He has never built anything like this before and I suppose that he would do an even better job next time. I absolutely loved going to his workshop and before last week I had never used a plasma cutter (I am in love!). The volume of outer pot is 50L, I posted the spec and source earlier in this thread but I have about 40-45mm gap all around the pot. The stainless pipes for handles were used keg spears. I did end up using the silicone hose as a seal, it does leak a very little bit, but it is insignificant and I personally wouldn't think that it would have much/any affect on anything unless I can be proven otherwise. 

The best source of stainless fittings that I could find was www.boltsnutsscrewsonline.com (no affil) they had cheapest price, two-day delivery, they also sell the threaded rod.

I will hopefully test the whole system tomorrow morning, I will first do another leak test because I am paranoid about water near high-power stuff and electronics. 

Actually, I am doubly paranoid because the o-rings supplied with the element were no good and let a bunch of water into the control box on the first leak test. I replaced the rings with silicone ones (one baking tray goes a LOOONG way) and it seems ok, but I also siliconed up the element entry points to the control box (on inside of box) so lets hope it works. Plus, I am not keen to open up the box again because I crammed so much stuff in there it's gonna "jack in the box" out at me.


----------



## dmac80

Looks a high quality job Edak, nice work.

Cheers
Dan


----------



## seamad

That looks like a pro built job, congrats
Cheers
Sean


----------



## lukec

Just a quick one of mine completely finished and up and running. Currently got a APA going in it.


----------



## Lakey

Edak said:


> OK!
> 
> So I have assembled and leak-tested my brau-thingo and I have photos!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have NOT tested any operation yet, I was too excited to take photos first. This means I still have NO idea whether the coil works or not
> 
> WOOT!



MAD RIG MATE! Im hoping I can one day achive building something similar, long time from now tho!


----------



## angus_grant

Awesome Edak and Luke. Something slightly robotic about Luke's. Awesome work guys.

Looks like more people are getting these brau-clones operational. Mine is making some slight progress. I have a 6 week old male time sink so it is a matter of sneaking in 1 hour of work between naps, nappies, and feeding. Oh and going to work as well. He he. 

Edak: that is a thing of beauty.


----------



## lukec

angus_grant said:


> Awesome Edak and Luke. Something slightly robotic about Luke's. Awesome work guys.
> 
> Looks like more people are getting these brau-clones operational. Mine is making some slight progress. I have a 6 week old male time sink so it is a matter of sneaking in 1 hour of work between naps, nappies, and feeding. Oh and going to work as well. He he.
> 
> Edak: that is a thing of beauty.




The upside down stainless mixing bowl is my tightass version of the original braumeister copper one. It makes a huge difference in the boil though.
Not bad for $13 compared to $350.


----------



## domfergo

Lukec and deal they are both very impressive!

Hope the test run goes well desk, pictures and troubleshooting are always anticipated


----------



## Edak

Massatomic said:


> Lukec and deal they are both very impressive!
> 
> Hope the test run goes well desk, pictures and troubleshooting are always anticipated



I love your autocorrect error there  
Cheers again all, I ran it this afternoon and the heat and pump worked excellently. Might consider adding a jacket as the ramp time is quite long.. It could also be a programmatic error. I really need to get the wireless programming working.


----------



## domfergo

Great!

I hope your desk is good and level to edak B)


----------



## Edak

Massatomic said:


> Great!
> 
> I hope your desk is good and level to edak B)



I think that went over my head.?


----------



## blotto

Massatomic said:


> Great!
> 
> I hope your desk is good and level to edak B)


If your desk is not level you won't get a nice even flow over the lip of your malt pipe. I've used bits of carpet or wood under the feet of my brothers Braumiester to level it out. But as yours only has two contact points with your bench it might be easier to level your bench. I'm thinking of adding adjustable feet to my Braumiser design. I think this is what Massatomic is talking about.


----------



## Brisfox

I to have been building a similar contraption.
Could you tell me what type of controller you are using.

Cheers.


----------



## gava

Having the temp probe so close to the element throw off your readings??



Edak said:


> more pics...


----------



## lukec

I got 89% efficiency out of the brew, grain bill was
5.4 pale310 crystal
23 l of water to start and sparges 9.8 l
Ended up with 21 into fermenter.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Brisfox said:


> I to have been building a similar contraption.
> Could you tell me what type of controller you are using.
> 
> Cheers.



Matho who built the original clone and showed us all in depth how it was done made a controler avaliable he has only a limited number of kits not sure what avaliability is though Matho would be more able to give you your options if that was the path you wanted to go down. Linky controler thread


----------



## angus_grant

Nice numbers Luke.

I just received my 2400W element from Thermal Products to start building up my sparge water boiler. It's a straight incoloy element. This will also let me do some full water size tests of the temp ramping system.

I will also use it to do some extract brews until the Brau-clone is up and running. This will let me develop the boil management side of the software, including importing beer.xml files from BeerMate straight into the control application. This will have a count-down timer for hops and adjunct additions, boil times, etc. It will also let me brew outside and not "gross" my wife out with brewing inside the unit... I reckon brewing inside would help our little baby sleep better. ha ha..

I can then start looking at purchasing the full size element for my main vessel and cracking on with that side of the build.


----------



## bonj

MastersBrewery said:


> Matho who built the original clone and showed us all in depth how it was done made a controler avaliable he has only a limited number of kits not sure what avaliability is though Matho would be more able to give you your options if that was the path you wanted to go down. Linky controler thread


Yep, contact matho and see what the status is on any remaining brauduino shield PCBs. You will need matho's shield, and a standard form factor arduino to plug into it. Speaking of plugs  I've just started ordering parts for another batch of bonjuinos (arduino clone). When the parts come in, I can offer a bonjuino kit with the brauduino code pre-loaded on the microcontroller chip. More info on the bonjuino available in the link in my sig below.

If matho has no PCBs left, give me a yell as I might end up doing a small run of them (with matho's permission).


----------



## Edak

gava said:


> Having the temp probe so close to the element throw off your readings??



Hi Gava, that was my first thought as the probe sits only about 10-12mm away from the element. Basically I had no other good option as you are quite limited with space in these vessels. One thing that makes me confident is the fact that I put the probe right next to the pump inlet, which will create a good flow past the probe so there's no stagnant fluid between the probe and the element so it should be a good representation of the temperature of the wort.

Massatomic, WRT the table levelling, the base is perfectly level and when I bench tested it in the garage it overflowed almost perfectly over all edges so I am not worried about the levelling at this stage and I wouldn't think that it would be a big issue anyway. If I were to do the math, even if the angle were off by a few degrees such that the overflow only went over one portion of the MP it would have virtually no effect on the outcome. 

If you are off level by 2 degrees (which is a fair bit) with a 30cm MP then you are looking at a water/wort level difference across the surface of only about 1mm (Pythagoras), which is only 1/300 of the height of the MP (300mm). The pump is always pushing wort through the grain so it's not a problem there. The return/recirc aspect is more of a factor and we have no control over that as far as I can see.

That's my 38%6c

EDIT: Oh, I am using a custom controller because I started writing mine when matho was working on his. I also have a larger LCD and different menu structure so our code doesn't really overlap at all except for the PID library, in which case I can use the modified version from matho.

BONJ: Thank you for finally updating your sig so you don't have a negative number


----------



## Florian

Hey Edak,

i assume you Know this already but i thought i mention it just in case.
the braumeister has the temp Probe towards the middle of the vessel, so it is right under the malt pipe.
it makes Sense to measure the temp there as it is as close to the mash as you can get. with your Design you might have some minimal heat loss on the way through the pump and hoses, in which case you might be actually mashing slightly lower.
obviously this also gets you around the issue of being to close to the coil.


----------



## Edak

Florian said:


> Hey Edak,
> 
> i assume you Know this already but i thought i mention it just in case.
> the braumeister has the temp Probe towards the middle of the vessel, so it is right under the malt pipe.
> it makes Sense to measure the temp there as it is as close to the mash as you can get. with your Design you might have some minimal heat loss on the way through the pump and hoses, in which case you might be actually mashing slightly lower.
> obviously this also gets you around the issue of being to close to the coil.
> 
> 
> View attachment 55843



Yes I am aware of this, but I could not for the life of me find a suitable thermowell to suit. 
Using a 19L bigW pot, one would need a very low-profile thermowell to ensure that we don't lose too much volume in the malt pipe, putting the sensor on the outside maximises the available volume in the malt pipe. on the same note, a short thermowell would be so close to the pot wall that you would introduce other inaccuracies. It's a trade-off really.


----------



## angus_grant

When the system first starts to heat the water, if it was to recirculate the water would it flow through the malt pipe or does that require the grain to be present to make it overflow? I am guessing it requires the grain to overflow. It would be nice to put the temp probe at the top of the malt pipe so you know the temp at the end of the water cycle.

Or would that mean that the temp of the water would be too high at the start to be at the correct temp at the end of malt pipe travel?


----------



## domfergo

Edak said:


> I think that went over my head.?




sorry edak, i went to bed after my reply, i was just having a dig at myself for the autocorrection of your handle..... :icon_cheers: 

did raise a good point though about having a level surface or building into the stand bolts that could be adjust for the surface for this purpose

order some parts today...

jaycar stuff for mathos controller, skin fittings for plumbing and getting a quote on getting custom made sized malt pipes and filter plates (will let you know what comes of it), pump in the works...

will be a bit of a time before its up and running but already enjoying the build. The metal work shop definatley enjoyed enquiring about the malt pipes....

what size center rod is everyone using, i dont think it needs to be all that large may be even only 10mm?

Mass


----------



## domfergo

angus_grant said:


> When the system first starts to heat the water, if it was to recirculate the water would it flow through the malt pipe or does that require the grain to be present to make it overflow? I am guessing it requires the grain to overflow. It would be nice to put the temp probe at the top of the malt pipe so you know the temp at the end of the water cycle.
> 
> Or would that mean that the temp of the water would be too high at the start to be at the correct temp at the end of malt pipe travel?



with the sensor at the bottom of the pipe it is ensuring accurate temp as the water enters the grain.

The water would flow threw the malt pipe as the heating cycles happens. 

This would also heat the grain bill and have even temps through out the system, i dont think you would need the sensor at the top of the malt pipe as with a evenly heated pipe the losses to heat with the volume of water being pumped threw it would be very minimal if any.


----------



## matho

Just a quick note, my sensor is on the outside near the inlet of the pump, I have measured the wort coming out of the malt pipe with my trusty lab thermometer and it was reading the same as the ds18b20 was.

cheers steve


----------



## Malted

I was thinking of using a t-piece so the temp probe is run inline and measures the temp of the wort flowing through on it's way up to the grain bed.


----------



## Lakey

Malted said:


> I was thinking of using a t-piece so the temp probe is run inline and measures the temp of the wort flowing through on it's way up to the grain bed.



hey malted I was thinking the same idea when I get to building mine and was wondering how to seal the temp probe in the t-piece.


----------



## bonj

Lakey said:


> hey malted I was thinking the same idea when I get to building mine and was wondering how to seal the temp probe in the t-piece.


I am planning on the same, and have one of these: http://www.brewershardware.com/CF1412.html

Screw it into the straight section of the T piece, seal with thread tape and the wort rounds the bend of the T and passes directly around the thermowell/probe end.


----------



## bonj

Edak said:


> BONJ: Thank you for finally updating your sig so you don't have a negative number


I did it for you


----------



## NickB

I thought you did it for _me_..... :angry:


----------



## domfergo

May be one of these from a sponsor... 

40mm 1/2 bsp thermowell

Run long wise threw a t piece


----------



## NickB

Yeah, those thermowells are great. Use on on the T-piece for my HERMs. Although I did stumble upon some aluminium 150mm therowells at work... Grabbed a few 


Cheers


----------



## angus_grant

Massatomic said:


> May be one of these from a sponsor...
> 
> 40mm 1/2 bsp thermowell
> 
> Run long wise threw a t piece



Those thermowells have been out of stock for over a month. I just ordered 4 from brewers hardware in the US. Got 4 of them including postage for cheaper than 1 in Aus. Go figure.


----------



## Lakey

Bonj that compression fitting looks great, thats the style I would go because the sensor is in direct contact with the wort. I thought the thermowell type that CB sell maybe too long to go into a t-piece?


----------



## bonj

NickB said:


> I thought you did it for _me_..... :angry:


Crap.... It's all fun and games until they find out about each other.


----------



## bonj

Lakey said:


> Bonj that compression fitting looks great, thats the style I would go because the sensor is in direct contact with the wort. I thought the thermowell type that CB sell maybe too long to go into a t-piece?


I honestly haven't looked at the CB one. I bought some from brewershardware a few years ago for my HERMS project and was going to use the extra one for my braumiser clone....

I'm just a major tool tard, so the electronics are ready, but the actual vessel is a much slower prospect.


----------



## NickB

Bonj said:


> Crap.... It's all fun and games until they find out about each other.




:lol: 

It's a fight to the death for your affections, then.... h34r:


----------



## bonj

NickB said:


> :lol:
> 
> It's a fight to the death for your affections, then.... h34r:


:lol:


----------



## Edak

I think that Matho's answer (that the temp measured on outside = inside at base of MP) is enough to prevent me from making any more changes. I did think about adding a T piece but the more plumbing you have, the more wasted beer you have sitting in the pipes after boil. I kept it as short as I possibly could, but the keg king pump doesn't lend itself to easy plumbing due to barb fittings.

I want the black corner with the black trunks. Red is no good for my complexion.


----------



## domfergo

Is there any reason that the filter plates can't be made of aluminum? 

I can't find a supplier for peforated plate with hole sizeing small enough at 2mm thickness

What thickness do you think a aluminum plate would need to be to do the job?

Example supplier?


----------



## Edak

Massatomic said:


> Is there any reason that the filter plates can't be made of aluminum?
> 
> I can't find a supplier for peforated plate with hole sizeing small enough at 2mm thickness
> 
> What thickness do you think a aluminum plate would need to be to do the job?
> 
> Example supplier?



I don't like the idea of putting aluminium with stainless as during a brew it is a perfect environment for galvanic corrosion. You don't want corrosion in your beer.

I would also think that you would need a VERY thick piece of Aluminium (about 6mm or so) for the same strength. Keep on the path for stainless.


TO ALL
=============
We almost need a thread in itself to sort out this filter plate issue, as many of us are struggling to find suitable stainless plates.
Can we put together a list with pics of what people are successfully using.


----------



## angus_grant

I went out last Friday morning to have a look at these guys: http://www.metalmesh.com.au/stainless-steel-mesh

They are a manufacturer and wouldn't give me a price (not even a ball park figure) which was a bit frustrating as I now have to go to one of the retailers and waste their time getting a quote which will probably be way too high and a waste of everyone's time. I went in and a receptionist gave me some sample books and left me to it. So I didn't even get to talk to anyone technical about materials, strengths, weaknesses, try and con them into giving me some off-cuts, etc. Anyhoo....

If you have a look at the "hollander weave woven wire" link on that page, that looks the most suitable. You would still have to build actual framework to stop it from bending under the pump pressure. I think you might get away with not requiring filter material as the weave is quite tight. I got one of their brochures which has photos of the available metal at actual sizes. I also wrote down the two choices I thought would be suitable so will go to one of the retailers and get them to quote it up for me. But this is all at home so can't quote product codes. I'll post them up tonight.

None of their perforated SS sheeting looks suitable as the ones with the smaller holes is made from a thin sheet which I could bend by hand, and the thicker sheets had 5mm holes.


----------



## lukec

Henlaws in heidelberg do the stainless perorated. They did mine out of some spare they had laying around.For $50 I got 2 400x400 squares with 2mm holes so I could cut it exact to suit my big w pot. 
Luke


----------



## kymba

angus_grant said:


> If you have a look at the "hollander weave woven wire" link on that page, that looks the most suitable. You would still have to build actual framework to stop it from bending under the pump pressure. I think you might get away with not requiring filter material as the weave is quite tight. I got one of their brochures which has photos of the available metal at actual sizes. I also wrote down the two choices I thought would be suitable so will go to one of the retailers and get them to quote it up for me. But this is all at home so can't quote product codes. I'll post them up tonight.



you could also use termimesh, but as above you would need a support frame

just saw this on ebay - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TERMI-MESH-STAI...=item3cc886259b


----------



## seamad

Im happy with my top filter plate after mucking around with various optiions.
Top plate is 2 mm ss plate which i cut out to allow wort flow, it really is there only to hold down the real filter plate.
The filter plate is a aluminium pizza tray which i reinforced with two 3 mm aluminium straps forming a cross, these are glued on with jbweld and riveted. I then drilled a stack of 5 mm holes in it, something i would not want to do with ss..
The filter is a woolies splatter guard with the rim removed. This is attached to the filter plate with some pinchseal from clark rubber.

Works a treat. Pictures are toward the end of the link in my sig.

Cheers

Sean


----------



## angus_grant

I have started thinking that I will go back to my original plan for the filters and have off-the-shelf perforated stainless sheeting with a thickness that somewhat resists bending. I need two straps across the top for the locking mechanism anyway so that will provide strength, and then having stainless mesh underneath the top plate to actually do the filtering. I will probably use pinch seal from Clark Rubber like Sean.

K.I.S.S! Hey, if it works for Spiedel...


----------



## MastersBrewery

I remember seeing a brau type clone, think it was on youtube 100l or so, he had attached a circle of flat bar on edge to his clamping bar. Dont have any drawing programs loaded so hope this makes sense. So spreading the load of holding the filter plate should mean starndard perf should work.


----------



## domfergo

So that rules out aliminium

Weight bearing arms with a filter material is looking like the only reasonably cheap option.


----------



## Edak

Just thinking about this, perhaps I am best getting my mate to weld a second pipe to my lock-down bar to turn it into a big x like below images.

Current:





Modified:





I would probably be able to use the plate below at the filter plate...





What do you think?


----------



## Lakey

I was thinking about how I was going to build the plumbing for my braumiser utilising the t-piece and came up with replacing the elbow piece with the t-piece as in drawing below...

Just wondering if this would work? 

View attachment securedownload.bmp


----------



## seamad

Edak said:


> Just thinking about this, perhaps I am best getting my mate to weld a second pipe to my lock-down bar to turn it into a big x like below images.
> 
> Current:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modified:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would probably be able to use the plate below at the filter plate...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think?



Id be going the cross, four points better than two.


----------



## domfergo

Lakey said:


> I was thinking about how I was going to build the plumbing for my braumiser utilising the t-piece and came up with replacing the elbow piece with the t-piece as in drawing below...
> 
> Just wondering if this would work?




Looks the goods! Think I will do the same


----------



## Edak

Lakey said:


> I was thinking about how I was going to build the plumbing for my braumiser utilising the t-piece and came up with replacing the elbow piece with the t-piece as in drawing below...
> 
> Just wondering if this would work?



I think that it would work perfectly it should not restrict flow too much especially if you have a strong pump.
I am however not sure about your element coming out of the side though as I haven't seen one of these elements with the coil in the right spot and be able to actually get it into the pot YMMV.


----------



## domfergo

Edak said:


> I think that it would work perfectly it should not restrict flow too much especially if you have a strong pump.
> I am however not sure about your element coming out of the side though as I haven't seen one of these elements with the coil in the right spot and be able to actually get it into the pot YMMV.




Not sure what you mean by this edak.. If you could explain it would be much appreciated

I am going to have to run 2 x 2400w elements in mine and I was thinking of using the thermal products.com.au ones that come in at 2280mm. If my coil runs around at the 42cm diameter of my 45 cm pot it gives me A circumference of 1394mm meaning the elements will rap around nearly twice. I haven't bought them yet but have been thinking how I can make the two of the run around the pots and still get the fittings to the bottom?

Having them come out the side solves this problem.


----------



## matho

seamad said:


> Id be going the cross, four points better than two.




hey edak, just a note you will have to put something on the cross pieces near the ends to push the filter plate down about 5 mm into the pot because if you don't the flare in the top of the pot will let grain through.

cheers steve


----------



## Lakey

Edak said:


> I think that it would work perfectly it should not restrict flow too much especially if you have a strong pump.
> I am however not sure about your element coming out of the side though as I haven't seen one of these elements with the coil in the right spot and be able to actually get it into the pot YMMV.



Yeah I havent decided on my element as of yet, all still in planning stage atm, but good point!


----------



## notung

Lakey said:


> I was thinking about how I was going to build the plumbing for my braumiser utilising the t-piece and came up with replacing the elbow piece with the t-piece as in drawing below...
> 
> Just wondering if this would work?



The plumbing design looks simple and, from what I can tell, effective. Thanks for sharing. I'd do the same unless anyone sees a reason it wouldn't work.


----------



## hosko11

angus_grant said:


> I went out last Friday morning to have a look at these guys: http://www.metalmesh.com.au/stainless-steel-mesh
> 
> They are a manufacturer and wouldn't give me a price (not even a ball park figure) which was a bit frustrating as I now have to go to one of the retailers and waste their time getting a quote which will probably be way too high and a waste of everyone's time. I went in and a receptionist gave me some sample books and left me to it. So I didn't even get to talk to anyone technical about materials, strengths, weaknesses, try and con them into giving me some off-cuts, etc. Anyhoo....
> 
> If you have a look at the "hollander weave woven wire" link on that page, that looks the most suitable. You would still have to build actual framework to stop it from bending under the pump pressure. I think you might get away with not requiring filter material as the weave is quite tight. I got one of their brochures which has photos of the available metal at actual sizes. I also wrote down the two choices I thought would be suitable so will go to one of the retailers and get them to quote it up for me. But this is all at home so can't quote product codes. I'll post them up tonight.
> 
> None of their perforated SS sheeting looks suitable as the ones with the smaller holes is made from a thin sheet which I could bend by hand, and the thicker sheets had 5mm holes.



Another option for purchasing SS woven mesh is Amazon/Small Parts from the US. I prefer to support local suppliers but after getting a similar run around as you and only to find suppliers prepared to sell 1m at $200+, I brought a range of 12"x24" pieces (5 different opening sizes and wire thicknesses) off Amazon for around $55 + shipping. I had some other stuff coming out from the US via a shipping agent, so not sure what the shipping cost would have been just for the SS mesh.


----------



## angus_grant

Lakey said:


> I was thinking about how I was going to build the plumbing for my braumiser utilising the t-piece and came up with replacing the elbow piece with the t-piece as in drawing below...
> 
> Just wondering if this would work?



I thought of something this morning. With the temp probe being in the body of the main vessel: when you are ramping up to mash temperature you don't have the malt pipe in the vessel so thermal convection currents should circulate the water somewhat and you should get a fairly even temp range in the entire body of water

With the temp probe being in the pump plumbing wouldn't you need the pump running to circulate water across the temp probe to give you an accurate temp throughout the body of water. I wouldn't think water would circulate through the plumbing by itself.

??


----------



## lukec

My temp probe is in the side of my vessel and i have no worries, temp is always accurate and i also run the pump when ramping up to temp to make sure it is even all over.


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> Just thinking about this, perhaps I am best getting my mate to weld a second pipe to my lock-down bar to turn it into a big x like below images.
> 
> Current:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modified:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would probably be able to use the plate below at the filter plate...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think?



Hey Edak,

Is that one of those pizza trays. If so i tried them at first. Even with 4 points it will bend like you wouldnt believe. They are what i tried first time i used mine. I just ended up with a boil full of grain trying to make a wheat beer. Was terrible ended up chucking 20l down the drain.


----------



## Edak

Massatomic said:


> Not sure what you mean by this edak.. If you could explain it would be much appreciated
> 
> I am going to have to run 2 x 2400w elements in mine and I was thinking of using the thermal products.com.au ones that come in at 2280mm. If my coil runs around at the 42cm diameter of my 45 cm pot it gives me A circumference of 1394mm meaning the elements will rap around nearly twice. I haven't bought them yet but have been thinking how I can make the two of the run around the pots and still get the fittings to the bottom?
> 
> Having them come out the side solves this problem.



I have the same element in mine, what I would recommend is that you bend the large radius around the pot and use a proper bending tool to bend the ends down to the base of the pot. Right in the middle of the element I would recommend having a very small "z" bend so the element at the top of the coil can easily pass down to the base. This is what I tried to explain to the ThermalProducts guys who didn't bend it that way and made it harder for me.

Image for you of what I mean...





I recommend that you don't rely on the washers that they gave you.



matho said:


> hey edak, just a note you will have to put something on the cross pieces near the ends to push the filter plate down about 5 mm into the pot because if you don't the flare in the top of the pot will let grain through.
> 
> cheers steve


The plate in my previous post has a small lip that sits on the top edge of the pot, so I am hoping that the X locks this down to the top of the pot. The plate then dips down into the pot (the other part of the lip) so this should hopefully hold in place. If this is unlikely to work then I would have to cut the lip off the plate, sit it into the pot and as you have stated put stand-offs onto the X. 

See how it sits on top of the pot (In this photo the plate is upside down).





Do you think that even with a cross that the plate would bend enough to let grain through (assuming that it first gets through the fine SS mesh first)? If so then I have other problems to worry about because the holes are about 10mm.


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> Hey Edak,
> 
> Is that one of those pizza trays. If so i tried them at first. Even with 4 points it will bend like you wouldnt believe. They are what i tried first time i used mine. I just ended up with a boil full of grain trying to make a wheat beer. Was terrible ended up chucking 20l down the drain.



Oh you posted when I was replying. Damn it is one of those trays. I guess it's going to be back to the drawing board then.
Would this at least be suitable for the bottom plate considering its not as load-bearing?


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> Oh you posted when I was replying. Damn it is one of those trays. I guess it's going to be back to the drawing board then.
> Would this at least be suitable for the bottom plate considering its not as load-bearing?



It should be ok for the bottom plate, i only used them once as i ended up getting the stainless ones. Even with the stainless ive had to brace it quite well as the pressure from a march pump pushing up is quite alot.

Im brewing sat morning so i will take some photos if mine while its mashing so ill take some photos so you can see what ive done.


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> It should be ok for the bottom plate, i only used them once as i ended up getting the stainless ones. Even with the stainless ive had to brace it quite well as the pressure from a march pump pushing up is quite alot.
> 
> Im brewing sat morning so i will take some photos if mine while its mashing so ill take some photos so you can see what ive done.



You wouldn't happen to be able to get any more of those offcuts would you? I would pay you generously for them


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> You wouldn't happen to be able to get any more of those offcuts would you? I would pay you generously for them





I probably can if your prepared to wait a month. Im annual leave for next month to look after kids while wife travels Europe.
Our office is 10mins from Henlaws. I can just ring them and see if they have any and just pick it up for you. Only cost for you will be what they cost me.

And of course if your happy to pick them up from me. Good excuse to come out to Hargraves Hill for a beer too.



Luke


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> I probably can if your prepared to wait a month. Im annual leave for next month to look after kids while wife travels Europe.
> Our office is 10mins from Henlaws. I can just ring them and see if they have any and just pick it up for you. Only cost for you will be what they cost me.
> 
> And of course if your happy to pick them up from me. Good excuse to come out to Hargraves Hill for a beer too.
> 
> Luke



I am not trying to "look a gift horse in the mouth" but a month is a long time considering that the plates are all that is stopping me from my first brew. Is there any chance that I could pick it up directly from them?

Either way I still believe that a brew down at Hargraves Hill sounds like a fantastic idea that I would like to take up sometime.

I really wish my fabricator mate would accept cash for stainless, the guilt builds up quickly and all this downtime means that I don't have enough beer to give in exchange for favours.


----------



## domfergo

I had a quote done up for 2 malt pipes and two 2mm stainless disks made to order

1 x 350 diameter x 430mm height pipe
1 x 350 diameter x 260mm height pipe

2 x 350 diameter x 2mm plates (said around $150 for these)

Was told $700. 

This was from a stainless metal working place in Darwin. He was going to make seamless welds and polish them back for food grade standards

I think a lot of the cost would be labour from what I was told screwing around with the weld and polishing it.

Also to be considered that these are Darwin prices that are usually a lot more then anywhere else in the country

It's to expensive for me, might get a quote on getting the stainless rolled and have a friend weld them for me


----------



## ArnieW

Edak said:


> Just thinking about this, perhaps I am best getting my mate to weld a second pipe to my lock-down bar to turn it into a big x like below images.
> 
> Current:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modified:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would probably be able to use the plate below at the filter plate...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think?


I've posted my solution before, but worth showing again how I solved this one. My rig has been running for more than 18 months now and this was the trickiest part to figure out. I've tried about a dozen different ideas and finally ended on one that works really well and is very simple to do at home.

Check out the blog post link and scroll down a little for 'top filter locking mechanism'.

BrauBushka blog

cheers, Arnie


----------



## Lakey

angus_grant said:


> I thought of something this morning. With the temp probe being in the body of the main vessel: when you are ramping up to mash temperature you don't have the malt pipe in the vessel so thermal convection currents should circulate the water somewhat and you should get a fairly even temp range in the entire body of water
> 
> With the temp probe being in the pump plumbing wouldn't you need the pump running to circulate water across the temp probe to give you an accurate temp throughout the body of water. I wouldn't think water would circulate through the plumbing by itself.
> 
> ??



Yeah good point you made! I suppose I could have the pump run while ramping up to mash temp, its only gonna get to temp quicker with the liqour recirculating. I am going to use mathos arduino set up (if I can build it on my limited skill-set) so maybe can play around with the code to have pump on when bringing up to mash temp. Anyway this is why im doing my research now before I start anything, baby steps!


----------



## Edak

ArnieW said:


> I've posted my solution before, but worth showing again how I solved this one. My rig has been running for more than 18 months now and this was the trickiest part to figure out. I've tried about a dozen different ideas and finally ended on one that works really well and is very simple to do at home.
> 
> Check out the blog post link and scroll down a little for 'top filter locking mechanism'.
> 
> BrauBushka blog
> 
> cheers, Arnie




Very interesting indeed... You have put a huge effort into getting that up and running, I wonder whether this would work for me...


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> I am not trying to "look a gift horse in the mouth" but a month is a long time considering that the plates are all that is stopping me from my first brew. Is there any chance that I could pick it up directly from them?
> 
> Either way I still believe that a brew down at Hargraves Hill sounds like a fantastic idea that I would like to take up sometime.
> 
> I really wish my fabricator mate would accept cash for stainless, the guilt builds up quickly and all this downtime means that I don't have enough beer to give in exchange for favours.




Just give them a ring and ask if they have any offcuts of perforated stainless sheet and how much, they will give you a price straight over phone if you tell them its for cash.

Luke


----------



## MastersBrewery

Edak thought might be of some use to you and easy and cheap to implement

ok so in paint only image thing I have loaded

Yellow is the filter plate

Blue is the presure bar that goes across the top of the malt pipe


the white bit in the middle is the top 2 inches of a pot slightly smaller than the malt pipe


I think this would spread the load enough to allow the use of a normal guage flat false bottom


----------



## Edak

MastersBrewery said:


> Edak thought might be of some use to you and easy and cheap to implement
> 
> ok so in paint only image thing I have loaded
> 
> Yellow is the filter plate
> 
> Blue is the presure bar that goes across the top of the malt pipe
> 
> 
> the white bit in the middle is the top 2 inches of a pot slightly smaller than the malt pipe
> View attachment 55909
> 
> I think this would spread the load enough to allow the use of a normal guage flat false bottom



That's really thinking outside the square!

I doubt it will work because the system is still based on a pivot point in the middle, so excess pressure on one half of the bar will result in spillage.


----------



## MastersBrewery

oh forgot to add that white bit is welded to the preasure bar and for mine I was thinking of using the same skin fitting as used on the pump inlet/outlet on the false bottom for the central bolt to go through on the filter plate to help keep it on a level plain. And I can't claim this saw it on youtube, and it worked .... 100l system


----------



## Edak

MastersBrewery said:


> oh forgot to add that white bit is welded to the preasure bar and for mine I was thinking of using the same skin fitting as used on the pump inlet/outlet on the false bottom for the central bolt to go through on the filter plate to help keep it on a level plain. And I can't claim this saw it on youtube, and it worked .... 100l system



Those fittings are relatively expensive and bulky aren't they? If I can't find an alternative I may need to use one of those. I was thinking that there'd be a bard fitting or something like that.

Luke, do you mean Henlor in heidelberg?

EDIT: Spelling


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> Those fittings are relatively expensive and bulky aren't they? If I can't find an alternative I may need to use one of those. I was thinking that there'd be a bard fitting or something like that.
> 
> Luke, do you mean Henlor in heidelberg?
> 
> EDIT: Spelling



Yep, that's the one. They are usually very good. Just explain what you want and will pay cash.


----------



## Edak

Thanks mate 

Ok so I went back down to my fav brew equipment store (keg king) and I discovered that their 13mm barb fittings have a perfect 10.2mm ID, which makes them perfect for sliding down my 10mm threaded rod (ie attaching to the bottom plate to keep it in place). Match it with a 1/2" nut and it will be perfect for keeping the base plate in place with NO excess slack!

SCHWWIIIING! This combined with the SS pizza tray pictured earlier completes the lower filter part of the problem!

This is one happy chappy!


----------



## Edak

DARN!

My mate can't get stainless perf for less than $200 sheet and that's not cool. I called Henlor and they outright said that they "don't do any perforated", so they are off the list also.

This is turning out to be more of a PITA than I had hoped.

Steve (Matho) suggested 1.5mm non-perf (with larger cutouts) with the mesh sandwiched in between. That's a good idea but I have done everything so far to make this as accurate as possible so I am not keen to compromise. 

Still on the hunt.

I think that I will invest in some insulation for this vessel and I hear that neoprene is the stuff to get. Has anyone here used that stuff from clark rubber for this?


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> DARN!
> 
> My mate can't get stainless perf for less than $200 sheet and that's not cool. I called Henlor and they outright said that they "don't do any perforated", so they are off the list also.
> 
> This is turning out to be more of a PITA than I had hoped.
> 
> Steve (Matho) suggested 1.5mm non-perf (with larger cutouts) with the mesh sandwiched in between. That's a good idea but I have done everything so far to make this as accurate as possible so I am not keen to compromise.
> 
> Still on the hunt.
> 
> I think that I will invest in some insulation for this vessel and I hear that neoprene is the stuff to get. Has anyone here used that stuff from clark rubber for this?



Very interesting, if your still looking when I go back to work ill give them a call, I rang them and they had it ready for me to pick in 20mins.

Sorry they weren't helpfull.


----------



## scooter_59

lukec said:


> Very interesting, if your still looking when I go back to work ill give them a call, I rang them and they had it ready for me to pick in 20mins.
> 
> Sorry they weren't helpfull.



I picked up an offcut of 2mm ss perforated plate for $50 from Geordi in Cheltenham . I haven't used it yet it is 505mm x 80mm . If this suites pm me and you can have it for what I paid for it .Or give Geordi a ring .


----------



## Brisfox

Edak, on my contraption I have used Crim Safe mesh for the bottom filter and sort of in the process of doing the top plate out of the same stuff. 
Have you considered an 'H' instead of a "X'. I have come up with this and found that locks down the eadges faily well.
I'll try and upload a pic.


----------



## Brisfox

Edak hope this helps.

Bris.


----------



## angus_grant

hey hey Brisfox, you have already done my idea. I am going to have a clamping system from the top to avoid having a threaded rod run the whole way down the inner pot. Actually looks VERY similar to the system I have been designing in my head... Nice one.

Any design flaws or things to watch put for?


----------



## MastersBrewery

Edak said:


> DARN!
> 
> My mate can't get stainless perf for less than $200 sheet and that's not cool. I called Henlor and they outright said that they "don't do any perforated", so they are off the list also.
> 
> This is turning out to be more of a PITA than I had hoped.
> 
> Steve (Matho) suggested 1.5mm non-perf (with larger cutouts) with the mesh sandwiched in between. That's a good idea but I have done everything so far to make this as accurate as possible so I am not keen to compromise.
> 
> Still on the hunt.
> 
> I think that I will invest in some insulation for this vessel and I hear that neoprene is the stuff to get. Has anyone here used that stuff from clark rubber for this?



Edak, I recently got in contact with http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/ their site doesnt seem to have a way for aussies to order so I contacted them through their ebay store all their false bottoms are made from 1.59mm perf and they will cut to size. Including ship for one was around $100. I have a domed falsey I am going to use for the bottom plate. Hope this helps


----------



## MastersBrewery

Brisfox said:


> Edak, on my contraption I have used Crim Safe mesh for the bottom filter and sort of in the process of doing the top plate out of the same stuff.
> Have you considered an 'H' instead of a "X'. I have come up with this and found that locks down the eadges faily well.
> I'll try and upload a pic.



ok I gotta ask what does the missus think of the hole in the screen door!!! h34r: 
Really how/ where did you get a sheet of that?


----------



## Brisfox

MastersBrewery said:


> ok I gotta ask what does the missus think of the hole in the screen door!!! h34r:
> Really how/ where did you get a sheet of that?



Ive got a mate that installs windows, I think thats where I got it from.


----------



## Edak

Brisfox said:


> Ive got a mate that installs windows, I think thats where I got it from.



And it's stainless 304 or 316?


----------



## glenwal

Edak said:


> And it's stainless 304 or 316?



304

http://crimsafe.com.au/index.php?page=304-...stainless-steel


----------



## NickB

Looking good Tony!

Keep us updated!


----------



## Edak

Looks like you are well kitted up there Tony. Dh485? Not rs485? Hmm ok. 
I don't think that anyone here is using analog SSR's including myself sorry I can't help there. 
How much did you invest in that AB stuff?


----------



## DJR

I got my SSR's from Futurlec, they ended up being shipped from Thailand, they seem OK so far when i have used them. Hongfa units.

http://www.futurlec.com.au/RelSS.jsp

3-32VDC input range and 25mA max current over the input terminals. Mine is driven from 5V (USB) with a resistor (200 or 300 ohm from memory)with an LED inline as the SSR does not have an indicator.

On a related note they also have some flow sensors for a good price

http://www.futurlec.com.au/Flow_Sensor.jsp


----------



## matho

Tony said:


> The PLC has RS232 and RS485 (and ethernet ). These are the electrical interface. DH-485 is the protocol language.
> 
> I have bought a 1763-NC01 cable to connect between the PLC and the HMI........ got it from china for a good price.
> 
> I have done some searching for SSR's but not really had a very serious look. Hoping someone here has some experience with them.
> 
> And price......... meh....... ebay and cheap overseas freight is a great thing. I'm not cutting corners on this rig. Its going to be a keeper!
> 
> and a gentleman never tells



mate no real experience with them had a quick search alot of places want $300+ for analog input but I have found THIS ONE not too bad at $82.50 including heatsink

hope this helps

cheers


----------



## Edak

matho said:


> mate no real experience with them had a quick search alot of places want $300+ for analog input but I have found THIS ONE not too bad at $82.50 including heatsink
> 
> hope this helps
> 
> cheers


Ocean is Pretty good, I trust thrm


----------



## DJR

Ahh sorry I had no idea you were looking for an analog SSR. Pretty sweet that you can do phase trigger/PWM via it with different current. You could use the analog output on an Arduino but that controller looks spiffy. 

The more i look at it the more i think i could just use an Android tablet and USB 1-wire device  E.g. http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/4627 - use a 4 channel addressable switch to gang outputs, sure it would only give 4-bit accuracy but if you tweaked it that would still give plenty of duty cycle adjustments


----------



## roller997

Tony said:


> nice find fitty!
> 
> I may well invest in 2 of them. most of what i could find was the Carlo Gavazzi RM1E23AA25......... seen in the states for about $80 US in most places.
> 
> http://www.ecdcontrols.com/electrical-comp...-switching.aspx
> 
> Farnell list them in Australia for just under $300 when their RRP in the USA is $100. Rip off bastards!
> 
> Might send them an email and see if they can drop the price if they keep their heat exchangers. I have 2 for mounting outside the panel already.
> 
> I have been doing a bit of searching for a cheap pressure transmitter to mount on the return to the mash from the pump to activate pump rests. I was thinking of flow meters, but cheap ones will only ever be a tumble wheel style and they don't like solids at all. and a 1/2" magflow is a bit out of my budget




Tony,

I know that the kit you bought is at the upper end of what could be used for automation and control. I can't help but wonder if your build might be deviating from the original spirit of the thread which did question paying whatever a Braumeister costs. What sort of coin have you spent on the build so far?


Thanks


Roller


----------



## notung

Roller997 said:


> Tony,
> 
> I know that the kit you bought is at the upper end of what could be used for automation and control. I can't help but wonder if your build might be deviating from the original spirit of the thread which did question paying whatever a Braumeister costs. What sort of coin have you spent on the build so far?
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Roller



Or maybe a question to ask is what will Tony's rig be able to do that a braumeister can't...?


----------



## Tony

Roller997 said:


> Tony,
> 
> I know that the kit you bought is at the upper end of what could be used for automation and control. I can't help but wonder if your build might be deviating from the original spirit of the thread which did question paying whatever a Braumeister costs. What sort of coin have you spent on the build so far?
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Roller



I was waiting for that.

I will build it a hell of a lot cheaper, it will brew beer the same as a cheaper one, but will be more of a personal enjoyment thing to automate it. but i will keep it to myself so as not to offend.

over and out B)


----------



## bonj

I question how anyone could be offended by someone else's build...


----------



## MastersBrewery

Tony, just be sure to share the shiny bling in all it's glory when yer done mate!


----------



## Edak

Added a snazzy jacket to my brauthingo today. I bought the 20mm insulating stuff from Clark Rubber, it was not cheap but I get a decent boil and much better temperature control and ramp times.








EDIT: By the way, I barely used half of what I bought so if anyone wants a piece up to 1300x600 then I can off it cheap or trade it for something.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Edak, mate thats lookin mighty sweet next to the coffee maker!


----------



## Edak

MastersBrewery said:


> Edak, mate thats lookin mighty sweet next to the coffee maker!




Cheers, it was unintentional, just a convenient place to put it next to the sink while running water through it.

It does add to the bling though. Unfortunately the jacket removes that ultra-bling factor from the polished stainless vessel underneath.


----------



## domfergo

Gday All

build is very very slowley comining together....

still have not decided on how to get the malt pipe happening... might have to get it custom made for my 350mm diameter measurement

just had a quick question on the element, because i am going to build a double batch setup and going to try to make it so i can take it to any location and brew with (mainly because i am still in rentals) i need to run 2 elements in my system

i was thinking of running one 2000w and one 2400w running on two different breakers in the house. the 2000w element is so i can also run the march pump and stereo on this circuit and not go over the 10amps....

i am going to have to run these both either intermingled or above and below each other in the other vessel which will be a fair amout of stuffing around, but from talking to reps think it can be done.(may have to make little s/s standoff brackets to stop it drooping)

What i really want to know is can i get away with using high watt/density elements? just trying to limit the amount of element i have to work with...

i have done alot of reading on wort scorching and it seems that it happens when people pour malt concentrate directley onto an element, rims setups and some times with wheat and rye beers. There is just as much information stating that is just an urban myth...

My thinking is because we are having a continusly recirculating system there would be no real threat of and wort sitting in the same spot of any lenght of time hence eliminating scorching... I was playing with the idea of having two pickups but think the pump will still only draw from the path of least resistance anyway. to get around this i was going to insert an elbow in the pick up so it pulls from one side creating a mini whirlpool in the outer vessel

i am thinking of using these elements from thermal products



H03724 - 705mm - 2000W - 240V 

H03725 - 840mm -2400W - 240V 



thoughts???

p.s. edak - love the insulation!!


----------



## kymba

massatomic, what diameter is your main pot? could you use a smaller pot like this inside?

http://handyimports.com.au/new-commercial-...t-saucepan.html


----------



## Edak

Massatomic said:


> Gday All
> 
> build is very very slowley comining together....
> 
> still have not decided on how to get the malt pipe happening... might have to get it custom made for my 350mm diameter measurement
> 
> just had a quick question on the element, because i am going to build a double batch setup and going to try to make it so i can take it to any location and brew with (mainly because i am still in rentals) i need to run 2 elements in my system
> 
> i was thinking of running one 2000w and one 2400w running on two different breakers in the house. the 2000w element is so i can also run the march pump and stereo on this circuit and not go over the 10amps....
> 
> i am going to have to run these both either intermingled or above and below each other in the other vessel which will be a fair amout of stuffing around, but from talking to reps think it can be done.(may have to make little s/s standoff brackets to stop it drooping)
> 
> What i really want to know is can i get away with using high watt/density elements? just trying to limit the amount of element i have to work with...
> 
> i have done alot of reading on wort scorching and it seems that it happens when people pour malt concentrate directley onto an element, rims setups and some times with wheat and rye beers. There is just as much information stating that is just an urban myth...
> 
> My thinking is because we are having a continusly recirculating system there would be no real threat of and wort sitting in the same spot of any lenght of time hence eliminating scorching... I was playing with the idea of having two pickups but think the pump will still only draw from the path of least resistance anyway. to get around this i was going to insert an elbow in the pick up so it pulls from one side creating a mini whirlpool in the outer vessel
> 
> i am thinking of using these elements from thermal products
> 
> 
> 
> H03724 - 705mm - 2000W - 240V
> 
> H03725 - 840mm -2400W - 240V
> 
> 
> 
> thoughts???
> 
> p.s. edak - love the insulation!!



cheers mass, I think I have gone a little overboard with the insulation, but I love the look of it. 

I hear mixed opinions about scorching the wort but if you ask me I see many people using the keg king straight elements which are not low density, and non, of them complain about scorching. As long as you keep circulating then you should be fine. Personally I think that you will need two elements when ramping and boiling and you will only need one for holding temperature.


----------



## Brisfox

Edak said:


> cheers mass, I think I have gone a little overboard with the insulation, but I love the look of it.
> 
> I hear mixed opinions about scorching the wort but if you ask me I see many people using the keg king straight elements which are not low density, and non, of them complain about scorching. As long as you keep circulating then you should be fine. Personally I think that you will need two elements when ramping and boiling and you will only need one for holding temperature.




Fellas my +1 is that there is a formular for this sort of thing. Density of the liquid to the surface area of the element.
The Co that supplied my element worked it out from the density of molases.

The companies called Cynebar, they where very helpful.


----------



## domfergo

kymba said:


> massatomic, what diameter is your main pot? could you use a smaller pot like this inside?
> 
> http://handyimports.com.au/new-commercial-...t-saucepan.html




i was still going to try and incorparate the same type of system design that the orginal uses by having two seperate malt pipes so i can still do single batches when trying something new or unknown.

i have calculated my volumes using 350mm malt pipe having one at 270mm and 430mm, it seems that most pots are symetrical so 350mmX350mm - falling short for the big pipe

if i can get a symetrical pipes of the same dimensions i only have to tackle the filter plate design once

there is options but they are just expensive is all

edak - thanks for your advice, i was thinking along the same likes just needed to hear it from someone else for reassurance :icon_cheers:


----------



## wotafm

hi all,

finally got moving on my unit i am using two pots from handy imports the 50L 400 x400 and the 17L 280 x 280 modified to make it 350mm high by adding 70mm to the bottom.
View attachment 56243



stand
View attachment 56244


filter plates

View attachment 56245


cooling coil just needs a good clean

View attachment 56246


have a nice fast red pump

View attachment 56247


this is how it looks so far





thing i still need are heating element and controls (on the waiting list for matho's )

and a couple of fittings so i can hook the pump up

a couple of questions the filter plates have 2mm holes is this fine enough or will i have to get some finer mesh to use as well?

and has anyone taken there drain valve from the bottom of the tank rather then the side?

was thinking it may be easier to seal that way (just not sure how much sediment you would get setting in it.

looking forward to get this sucker going so i can try my first A/G brew started.

cheers dave


----------



## domfergo

wotafm that looks pretty bloody good!

love your filter plates and also you may have help me with your idea of joining the two pots for your malt pipe... were the pots ok to weld?

there is no reason you couldnt take your drain hole from the bottom really. Make sure its right on the out side so after you whirlpool it does not suck in the trub...

you could use your pump to get the wort out if you had it on disconnects or camlocks with a valve

as for 2mm.... i think it could go either way, give it a run with a coarse crush and see how it goes - not hard to add a voile material bag over it if it does not work

great stuff, you have put a lot of effort into it! cant wait to see it in action either!! :icon_drool2:


----------



## blotto

wotafm said:


> hi all,
> 
> finally got moving on my unit i am using two pots from handy imports the 50L 400 x400 and the 17L 280 x 280 modified to make it 350mm high by adding 70mm to the bottom.
> View attachment 56243
> 
> this is how it looks so far
> 
> View attachment 56254
> 
> 
> thing i still need are heating element and controls (on the waiting list for matho's )
> 
> and a couple of fittings so i can hook the pump up
> 
> a couple of questions the filter plates have 2mm holes is this fine enough or will i have to get some finer mesh to use as well?
> 
> and has anyone taken there drain valve from the bottom of the tank rather then the side?
> 
> was thinking it may be easier to seal that way (just not sure how much sediment you would get setting in it.
> 
> looking forward to get this sucker going so i can try my first A/G brew started.
> 
> cheers dave


That looks great Dave! I was thinking of having some mesh over the outlet on the bottom to keep the odd stray grain out of the pump. Where did you get your perforated stainless from? I'm using the same pots but I think my malt pipe is 19L (it's in storage at the moment)


----------



## blotto

Wort said:


> That looks great Dave! I was thinking of having some mesh over the outlet on the bottom to keep the odd stray grain out of the pump. Where did you get your perforated stainless from? I'm using the same pots but I think my malt pipe is 19L (it's in storage at the moment)


Nope I was wrong I have the 17L pot as well that's a great idea extending it. It's a bit hard to see in the pic did you have to cut the bottom out?


----------



## Edak

I acquired myself a piece of scrap perforated stainless, however the hole density is high (lots of 2mm holes) and the thickness is low (~1mm). It feels relatively strong, but I know that it is not "that" strong. I plan on using this until I have any better option. In order to use it though I figured that I MUST have a X holding it down because it will otherwise bend. As I have no access to a welder for some time (my mate is out of town for the next couple of weeks) I had to find a solution that would be weldless.

I found some sort of stainless rails at "chef land", which looked quite strong and were actually the PERFECT size for the 19L pot. And then I had an idea!

I cut down one rail and drilled the center of each...





laid one over the top of the other, so that they both held in the newly cut perf sheet.






note that the main round bar holds down the cut piece for extra strength.










I also figure that it is a good time to show how I slide the plate onto the center rod...






(the thread sits perfectly within the U bend of the bar)












I think that given the X that this should be strong enough to hold in those grains 

Probably need to use some of that mesh/voile to keep the dregs out though.

GETTING CLOSER!


----------



## breakbeer

Edak said:


> EDIT: By the way, I barely used half of what I bought so if anyone wants a piece up to 1300x600 then I can off it cheap or trade it for something.



PM sent :icon_cheers:


----------



## wotafm

Massatomic said:


> wotafm that looks pretty bloody good!
> 
> love your filter plates and also you may have help me with your idea of joining the two pots for your malt pipe... were the pots ok to weld?
> 
> there is no reason you couldnt take your drain hole from the bottom really. Make sure its right on the out side so after you whirlpool it does not suck in the trub...
> 
> you could use your pump to get the wort out if you had it on disconnects or camlocks with a valve
> 
> as for 2mm.... i think it could go either way, give it a run with a coarse crush and see how it goes - not hard to add a voile material bag over it if it does not work
> 
> great stuff, you have put a lot of effort into it! cant wait to see it in action either!! :icon_drool2:



i did not weld two pot together i found a piece of 1.2mm strip and hand rolled it around a bucket of all things. i purged welded at about 25amps doing 20mm on one side spinning it around 180deg doing another 20mm and rolled it around again and again.




Wort said:


> That looks great Dave! I was thinking of having some mesh over the outlet on the bottom to keep the odd stray grain out of the pump. Where did you get your perforated stainless from? I'm using the same pots but I think my malt pipe is 19L (it's in storage at the moment)



the mesh come from a mob called m&s stainless http://www.msstainless.com.au/ it was a leftover from a job




Wort said:


> Nope I was wrong I have the 17L pot as well that's a great idea extending it. It's a bit hard to see in the pic did you have to cut the bottom out?



i did cut the bottom out and am using the roll on the bottom to hold the bottom screen up 70mm off the base so if i worked it out right total volume of the mash pipe is app 21l so i should be able to just squeeze in 5-6kg of grain fingers crossed


----------



## Tony

Edak............ i could [email protected]#ken kiss you!

Your great ideas just solved some design issues i have been having!

legend!


----------



## Edak

Please elaborate Tony! 
I don't give out free kisses  

I wanted to know whether anyone bothered with a dome lid and if so whether they are worried about dms.


----------



## Tony

The main one is the simple one........... the hose barb drilled out to slide over the center rod!

Gold!

The other is the recessed supports for the top FB...... i recon u could build something very easily and cheaply with some light 25mm SS angle.

I am planning on getting some 1 or 1.5mm thick SS perf from Metalmesh in sydney. Its about $50 for a 1000 x 500mm sheet with 1 or 2 mm holes, but its about $60 a sheet to get it posted.

having a company car means a drive to Sydney to pick it up i guess 

cheers


----------



## Tony

A question for everyone already using these machines.......

Is it better to get a large aperture perforated plate and use a fine SS mesh, or just use a smaller aperture perforated plate with 1 to 1.5mm holes and about 23% open area?

has anyone done any trials with different combo's of mesh and perf at the top and bottom of the mash?


----------



## dmac80

I'm using perforated sheet with about 5 mm diameter holes, i think the open area percentage would be fairly high (didn't get the specs with the sheet) and some ss mesh from a cooking splatter guard.

Seems to work well for me, but i haven't done a comparison.

When i make another one, will use the same materials.

Cheers


----------



## Tony

Mmmmm....... the perf Edak has used looks exactly the same as the stuff i have here....... 2mm holes x 3mm pitch and 0.75mm thick. It buckled when i tried to use it as a false bottom in my current mash tun. Its way too thin. It has an open area of 40%, and most brewing literature i have read, recommends an open area of around the 20% mark for a good false bottom.

once you go over 3mm holes, you may as well use 10mm perf with some mesh, will give the same result.

I'm thinking about giving Metal Mesh a ring and asking if i can come check out what they have. I feel the need to see and feel the plate. Spec sheets don't tell you how rigid or heavy the stuff is.

I guess im starting to wonder big holes and mesh or little holes (1mm) and no mesh ???

Edit:
(didn't get the specs with the sheet)


----------



## Edak

Tony said:


> Mmmmm....... the perf Edak has used looks exactly the same as the stuff i have here....... 2mm holes x 3mm pitch and 0.75mm thick. It buckled when i tried to use it as a false bottom in my current mash tun. Its way too thin. It has an open area of 40%, and most brewing literature i have read, recommends an open area of around the 20% mark for a good false bottom.
> 
> once you go over 3mm holes, you may as well use 10mm perf with some mesh, will give the same result.
> 
> I'm thinking about giving Metal Mesh a ring and asking if i can come check out what they have. I feel the need to see and feel the plate. Spec sheets don't tell you how rigid or heavy the stuff is.
> 
> I guess im starting to wonder big holes and mesh or little holes (1mm) and no mesh ???
> 
> Edit:
> (didn't get the specs with the sheet)


Hey Tony, 
when you say it buckled, what sort of support did it have and over what area? As you can see by my design I have an X, would this be enough to prevent the, buckling? Is there as much pressure on the top plate as a gravity fed false bottom?


----------



## Edak

Oh and the barbs are 13mm with 10mm ID so they didn't need drilling


----------



## Tony

I had no support, which is way i thought your weldless design was so tops!

And i have 12mm dia SS rod for my center pole, so i may need to drill a bit but those hose barbs are the perfect cheap option!

Mmmm reminds me...... i need to order some 4-20 mA SSR's tonight ans find my drawings so i can get some prices on SS fab


----------



## Edak

So nobody is making or has made a dome lid for their BM?

Oh well, I guess I will have to nut that one out too....

One more piece of advice that I am after. I am going to use the ikea splatter screen as a fine mesh filter and will attach it to the filter plate (one each plate). What have you used to keep it in place? Is there something I can get from bunnings (ie stainless steel wire)?


----------



## MastersBrewery

Edak said:


> So nobody is making or has made a dome lid for their BM?
> 
> Oh well, I guess I will have to nut that one out too....
> 
> One more piece of advice that I am after. I am going to use the ikea splatter screen as a fine mesh filter and will attach it to the filter plate (one each plate). What have you used to keep it in place? Is there something I can get from bunnings (ie stainless steel wire)?



I'm sure I read a while back that one of the guys was going to use a stainless bowl inverted hole cut in the middle with a pipe mated to that, vaguely remember seeing a pic of it..... may have been dreaming though


----------



## dmac80

I've tied my splatter guard mesh on with Stainless Steel wire, i think a neater option might be to get some 'u' shaped rubber channel to go around the outside of the screen. 

I think MHB has been using something like this on the Braumeisters, but i haven't tried it on my machine yet. I just haven't found the thread where it was discussed yet...

As Masters Brewery said, i know of one guy who intends to use a large stainless cooking bowl as a hood for his brewery. Can't see why it won't work.

Cheers


----------



## Edak

dmac said:


> I've tied my splatter guard mesh on with Stainless Steel wire, i think a neater option might be to get some 'u' shaped rubber channel to go around the outside of the screen.
> 
> I think MHB has been using something like this on the Braumeisters, but i haven't tried it on my machine yet. I just haven't found the thread where it was discussed yet...
> 
> As Masters Brewery said, i know of one guy who intends to use a large stainless cooking bowl as a hood for his brewery. Can't see why it won't work.
> 
> Cheers



The bowl that was pictured would have returned all of the condensation back into the pot, which is not very good (DMS). I was curious as to a good method for tacking that.

To be honest, I happened to already have the exact size bowl that would fit on the top of my system but need a (cheap) way to ensure no condensation is returned into my brew!


----------



## seamad

Edak said:


> So nobody is making or has made a dome lid for their BM?
> 
> Oh well, I guess I will have to nut that one out too....
> 
> One more piece of advice that I am after. I am going to use the ikea splatter screen as a fine mesh filter and will attach it to the filter plate (one each plate). What have you used to keep it in place? Is there something I can get from bunnings (ie stainless steel wire)?



I removed the wire frame from my splatter guard and it is held in place against the plate with some pinch seal from clarks rubber, works a charm and seals nicely against the bigw pot. I took my top filter plate and mesh into clarks to make sure it was a good fit.
Cheers sean


----------



## matho

Edak said:


> The bowl that was pictured would have returned all of the condensation back into the pot, which is not very good (DMS). I was curious as to a good method for tacking that.
> 
> To be honest, I happened to already have the exact size bowl that would fit on the top of my system but need a (cheap) way to ensure no condensation is returned into my brew!



I have been thinking about this too, I would think you would have to put channels inside the bowl to catch the condensation and drain it away like this 





maybe pop riveted on and a drain hole somewhere, the condensation should run down the sides of the bowl so a channel down the bottom to catch that and then another one up the top the catch any condensation that collects in the chimney.

cheers steve


----------



## Edak

I thought of having two SS bowls, one as shown in the earlier images that matches the profile of the pot, and one larger than the diameter of the pot with the "bottom" of it cut out so you have a large hole over which the smaller fits.

a picture is worth 1kWords (except my pictures, which suck)

EDIT: clarify with another picture


----------



## MastersBrewery

hey both your pics are better than what I can do, already proved that, but see you got what I meant, good luck with it Edak


----------



## Edak

is it necessary to have a "chimney"?


----------



## matho

no

but I have been thinking of making one to take the steam out of the kitchen and to reduce the amount of condensation around the kitchen


----------



## lukec

hey edak, i have the upside down stainless bowl. all condensation runs back down the inside of the bowl to outside my kettle. i oversised it so it would work that way. no condensation runs off it to the inside.


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> hey edak, i have the upside down stainless bowl. all condensation runs back down the inside of the bowl to outside my kettle. i oversised it so it would work that way. no condensation runs off it to the inside.



Hey luke, 

how does it sit on the pot? wouldn't the rim of the pot touch the inside of the bowl and create a path back inside the brew? how big is your chimney hole? Do you have photos?

Are you back at work yet?

SOOO many questions!


----------



## domfergo

i just had the best quote by far for getting my malt pipe made up and thought i would share if anyone is looking for a custom size.

i actually got the link off another thread but it applies to me. They make ss pressure vesseles and kegs, so they have machinery set up for making cylinders and doing it at a 1/3 of the cost of a standard sheet metal place

dez was very helpful!

Stainless Tanks

Cheers

Mass


----------



## kymba

this is my solution for a temporary malt pipe/pot while i get my bits-n-bobs sorted for the real one http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=943972

didn't post in here as its a bit dodgery


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> Hey luke,
> 
> how does it sit on the pot?
> 
> it sits over the top the keg which im using.
> 
> wouldn't the rim of the pot touch the inside of the bowl and create a path back inside the brew?
> 
> I cut and folded the rim of the mixing bowl so it sits a little bit off the keg so anything that runs down the inside of the bowl actually runs outside the rim of my kek
> how big is your chimney hole?
> 
> My chimney hole is in the experimental stages. I started off with 65mm and had an crazy boil. Im out to 125mm and still getting an awsome boil. Im hoping to to get to 175mm and still have a vigorous boil then i will be happy.
> 
> I did a belgian strong ale in it approx 5kg grain 23l to start and 8l sparge (rinse) 500g brown sugar and 500g belgian candy i ended up with 18l into fermenter at 1078 after 60min boil so im pretty happy with the way things are going in it.
> All i need is someone to build me mathos controller ( me pay them $$ ) and it truly will be finished.
> 
> Do you have photos?
> 
> No not of bowl ( chimney ) yet. And its to cold and im to lazy to walk to shed tonight.
> 
> Are you back at work yet?
> 
> 
> Yes back to work. It sucks balls big time. These stay at home mums just dont realize how good they have it.
> 
> SOOO many questions!


----------



## Edak

Thanks for that luke, I could help build mathos controller if you can convince those guys that they have scrap perf.  

I am pretty good at soldering if i say so myself.


----------



## gava

I noticed that a 50lt keg would be perfect for what your talking about with this picture, I know your using pots but if anyones using a keg it already has a lip with drainage holes to the outside of the pot.






NOTE: this is a linked picture from www.saltfish.net which I found via google so if it stops working thats why.(linked)




Edak said:


> I thought of having two SS bowls, one as shown in the earlier images that matches the profile of the pot, and one larger than the diameter of the pot with the "bottom" of it cut out so you have a large hole over which the smaller fits.
> 
> a picture is worth 1kWords (except my pictures, which suck)
> 
> EDIT: clarify with another picture


----------



## lukec

Edak said:


> Thanks for that luke, I could help build mathos controller if you can convince those guys that they have scrap perf.
> 
> I am pretty good at soldering if i say so myself.





I rang them yesterday afternoon and asked about any perf stainless. I found out the only reason i got some is that it was left overs from a special order they had done.

They said they will call me if any they get any more ( I wont hold my breath )

Help building mathos controller would be awesome. But will not be ordering for a few months as other things need to spend money on at the moment. I will start saving my scrap metal money for one i think.


----------



## angus_grant

Well, I think I have solved my top filter plate problem, and all for the measly price of $40 for 316 stainless steel. And thanks to Whitworths again, who I got my skin fittings from. I grabbed their catalogue and was reading through it and something caught my eye. Something very interesting!

34 cms in diameter. It was all sounding too good to be true. The grill sits inside the pot nicely, I have yet to figure out if my original catch system will still work (some 316 stainless hatch locks from Whitworths as well), And I will be able to attach the stainless wire mesh I have to the bottom of the plate. I can't physically flex the grill by hand, and I tried pretty hard.... So I think the problem is solved. B) And all for $40...

I will need to have a bit of extra water to get over the lip but I don't think that is a big deal...

So here is a shot of the grill cooker on top of my Big W malt pipe:


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> Well, I think I have solved my top filter plate problem, and all for the measly price of $40 for 316 stainless steel. And thanks to Whitworths again, who I got my skin fittings from. I grabbed their catalogue and was reading through it and something caught my eye. Something very interesting!
> 
> 34 cms in diameter. It was all sounding too good to be true. The grill sits inside the pot nicely, I have yet to figure out if my original catch system will still work (some 316 stainless hatch locks from Whitworths as well), And I will be able to attach the stainless wire mesh I have to the bottom of the plate. I can't physically flex the grill by hand, and I tried pretty hard.... So I think the problem is solved. B) And all for $40...
> 
> I will need to have a bit of extra water to get over the lip but I don't think that is a big deal...
> 
> So here is a shot of the grill cooker on top of my Big W malt pipe:



Hey Angus, how thick is that perf? 
I am guessing that the lip is what gives it strength so if it was cut to fit the pipe then it would probably be too weak. 
Nice find though, if I am wrong then Whitworth will get many orders


----------



## angus_grant

Hey Edak,

You are bang on about the lip providing strength. The perf is about 2mm thick and could be bent by hand quite easily if there was no lip. From the lip it angles inwards to the perf section. Halfway along the angled section is where it sits on the pot so I don't see a need to trim the lip. I'll post up a photo when I get home. 

Like i said, may have to rethink my fastening system. Not sure if I can get hatch locks to work, but I haven't even had time to look at it yet. And the proof will be in the testing. 

And annoyingly the SS wire mesh I picked up from another member is a little too small to cover all the holes. >-|

Cheers,
Angus.


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> Hey Edak,
> 
> You are bang on about the lip providing strength. The perf is about 2mm thick and could be bent by hand quite easily if there was no lip. From the lip it angles inwards to the perf section. Halfway along the angled section is where it sits on the pot so I don't see a need to trim the lip. I'll post up a photo when I get home.
> 
> Like i said, may have to rethink my fastening system. Not sure if I can get hatch locks to work, but I haven't even had time to look at it yet. And the proof will be in the testing.
> 
> And annoyingly the SS wire mesh I picked up from another member is a little too small to cover all the holes. >-|
> 
> Cheers,
> Angus.


2mm thick?  
That is awesome! There should be no easy way to bend it even without the lip. It must be quite heavy. 

If my weak perf fails then it is time to go to Whitworths I think.


----------



## angus_grant

Actually I'll need to measure it when I get home. It's probably closer to 1mm and I think it would be pretty flimsy without the lip.


----------



## Edak

Thought I would share that I finished my dome lid. It is an inverted SS bowl with a 100mm hole cut out of it. I cut along the length of a piece of clear reinforced hose and wrapped it around the lip of the bowl with jaggered edges to catch any condensation that accumulates and runs down the sides. 

I am now confident to do my first brew on it tomorrow (actually my first AG altogether so it's pretty exciting).

EDIT:
My first AG will be Dr Smurtos Golden Ale, which is in the recipe database. I notice that the good Dr used a single infusion, would anyone bother do go for a double with this recipe (given that it is no additional work on my behalf) and if so what times would you use?


----------



## angus_grant

Hey Edak,

Nice drainage solution for the domed lid. Nice and brilliantly simple solution to start off with and you can always pretty it up later. Or just do what pretty much everyone does and realise after 50 iterations, that thing you were going to "fix" no longer bothers you. ha ha...

I'll be doing my first AG as well when I eventually get my brau-clone up and running. May as well jump straight into the deep end with an experimental system doing a complicated and foreign processes.  

I have finished the sparge water/extract brew Big W pot and that all works nicely. Software is working well, exporting beer.xml files directly into the boil control software. My next step is to code up the mash-temp controls using my PID software.

I should also be able to move forward actually constructing the brau-clone main vessel now.


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> May as well jump straight into the deep end with an experimental system doing a complicated and foreign processes.



This describes me perfectly, except that I think about it continuously without spending that thinking time experimenting. Less pragmatic...

This is why it has taken me months to get this thing built!


----------



## matho

Edak said:


> Thought I would share that I finished my dome lid. It is an inverted SS bowl with a 100mm hole cut out of it. I cut along the length of a piece of clear reinforced hose and wrapped it around the lip of the bowl with jaggered edges to catch any condensation that accumulates and runs down the sides.
> 
> I am now confident to do my first brew on it tomorrow (actually my first AG altogether so it's pretty exciting).
> 
> EDIT:
> My first AG will be Dr Smurtos Golden Ale, which is in the recipe database. I notice that the good Dr used a single infusion, would anyone bother do go for a double with this recipe (given that it is no additional work on my behalf) and if so what times would you use?



well done Edak, the unit looks really good, it's put mine to shame. Good luck with your first AG, savour the smells of the brewday, especially the first hop addition.

As for the step mash schedule I wouldn't bother putting to many steps in for a golden ale, maybe the first step at sac temp for an hour and a mash out step at 74 deg for about 10 min. For my lagers I have been mashing in at 32 , 52 for 5 min, 64 for 30min, 68 for 30min and mashout at 72 for 10 min but for my ales I just go with 65 for 60min and mashout at 72 for 10 min

cheers steve


----------



## Edak

matho said:


> well done Edak, the unit looks really good, it's put mine to shame. Good luck with your first AG, savour the smells of the brewday, especially the first hop addition.
> 
> As for the step mash schedule I wouldn't bother putting to many steps in for a golden ale, maybe the first step at sac temp for an hour and a mash out step at 74 deg for about 10 min. For my lagers I have been mashing in at 32 , 52 for 5 min, 64 for 30min, 68 for 30min and mashout at 72 for 10 min but for my ales I just go with 65 for 60min and mashout at 72 for 10 min
> 
> cheers steve




Cheers Steve, 

I will probably experiment next time and see if having two sac temps makes much difference to the overall product. Some say that multiple steps can aid head retention and body, and since the BM steps are basically free I thought it wouldn't do any harm to add a protein rest in there. 

I guess it is all about experimentation! This brewing stuff is fun, if only I had more patience...

EDIT: Put yours to shame?? No way, yours looks awesome just a little small...


----------



## Edak

Success!!

I did my first AG brew today, in my brauduino thingo. Not only is it my first AG, but it was the first full AG I have had the opportunity to even see! I am pretty impressed with myself, but I did have a cheat-sheet nearby to remind me to do everything such as rehydrate the yeast, sanitise everything, etc.

The system held up very well including the filter plates, which were thought to be too weak. 

PICS (in order that I took them)


































I also logged the mash on my Mac (using a wireless zigbee link built into my set up).





I pitched the yeast and it started bubbling within about an hour. It is now fermenting in my (online-logging/monitoring) fridge which I only just recovered after the wife managed to destroy the source code for. If you want to see it online send me a PM.

The boil was just okay without the lid, but with it on it was a real roller! The drainage system worked quite well. In fact I had much more boil off than I thought so I ended up with just over 19L @ 1.052 whereas I was aiming for 20L at 1.048. My Pre-Boil Efficiency was 86.1% and the Post-Boil Efficiency (into fermenter) was 74.2% . So Stoked! Thank you to everyone for their advice.


----------



## matho

congrats Edak you have done well, you have built a brew rig you have to be proud of and you have your first AG brew under your belt 

cheers steve


----------



## Edak

matho said:


> congrats Edak you have done well, you have built a brew rig you have to be proud of and you have your first AG brew under your belt
> 
> cheers steve



Your Braumiser was my inspiration, if I had not seen it then I would still be twiddling my thumbs wondering what to do...


----------



## dmac80

Nice work Edak,
It's good that it all went well, and your first AG to boot!
Cheers


----------



## breakbeer

nice one Edak! looks awesome.


----------



## angus_grant

yay, nice work Edak. Your post about being almost finished has inspired me to get a move on with my main vessel construction. And now your first AG has inspired me even more.... Two big thumbs up and a cheers of (hopefully) my last K+K dark ale before going AG.

I am hoping my birthday presents from parents and siblings should give me enough cash to get a grain mill from Craft Brewer and then I can start doing some BIAB AG batches whilst finishing off the brau-clone build.

Great work Edak!


----------



## bonj

Looking awesome Edak! Well done! Your brewery looks really good.


----------



## Edak

Thank you everyone, I can't wait to taste the beer to see how much better than my toucans they are.

The worst part of the brew was my whirlpool, I really need to work on that, and would be awesome if I could learn the secret off someone first hand. I had a fair bit of break get into the fermenter but none of the big trub stuff. Need to work on how I will get that right.

Now comes the waiting game..


----------



## domfergo

Edak, that is a work of art!

congrats!

put your next one down now and keep it in a cube, after a few brews there wont be much waiting time anymore!

my trick was to keep buying kegs until i found that the keg i was putting in the fridge had a couple of months ageing behind it. For me the magic number of kegs was 10

Cheers

Mas


----------



## Edak

Massatomic said:


> Edak, that is a work of art!
> 
> congrats!
> 
> put your next one down now and keep it in a cube, after a few brews there wont be much waiting time anymore!
> 
> my trick was to keep buying kegs until i found that the keg i was putting in the fridge had a couple of months ageing behind it. For me the magic number of kegs was 10
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mas



Woah so you have 10 kegs? Awesome!

I understand that kegging saves time but I have not begun kegging yet so I have to (A) wait for the fermentation to complete (2-3 weeks) then (B) the bottle carbonation (another couple of weeks). I don't see any saved time.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Edak, very impressive, and very good numbers, did you sparg at all and if so how much? Finances still holding me back a bit, but with inspiration like this I'm sure I'll eventually get there


----------



## Edak

MastersBrewery said:


> Edak, very impressive, and very good numbers, did you sparg at all and if so how much? Finances still holding me back a bit, but with inspiration like this I'm sure I'll eventually get there



Yeah I rinsed with about 7 litres, the first 3 were directly over the pot (malt pipe suspended above pot) and in order to check the runnings I rinsed the rest over a bucket, measured then dumped into the pot before the boil started. All sparges/rinses were done with mashout temperature water, which I neatly collected from my home made sous vide. The problem was that I really should have added just over 8 litres to get to the full boil volume (according to BeerSmith2), which in the end means I came up about 1 litre short of my target with high gravity.


----------



## sboreham

Hi everyone I apologies if this has already been mentioned. I was looking around trying to find some good pots to start my own Braumeister clone and I found the following in Keg Kings price list. It cost $199.95 so I assume there is free postage. Has anyone seen these or know anything about them? 

_*Nested Aluminium 60/40L Pots for Single Vessel Brewing *
These single vessel brewing pots are 
great for mash brewing. The aluminium 
is more conductive than stainless pots 
making these pots idea for direct heat. 
The pots come as a set with a large 60L 
outter pot with lid and a nested inner 40L 
inner pot that has a perforated false bottom. This 
allows you to place grain in the inner pot for mashing. When finished 
mashing simply lift out the inner pot and use the outter pot to boil. The 
assembly can also be used in conjuction with RIMS heat stick and 
pump to upgrade this to a recirculating system in the future. _


----------



## Edak

ShaneyB said:


> Hi everyone I apologies if this has already been mentioned. I was looking around trying to find some good pots to start my own Braumeister clone and I found the following in Keg Kings price list. It cost $199.95 so I assume there is free postage. Has anyone seen these or know anything about them?
> 
> _*Nested Aluminium 60/40L Pots for Single Vessel Brewing *
> These single vessel brewing pots are
> great for mash brewing. The aluminium
> is more conductive than stainless pots
> making these pots idea for direct heat.
> The pots come as a set with a large 60L
> outter pot with lid and a nested inner 40L
> inner pot that has a perforated false bottom. This
> allows you to place grain in the inner pot for mashing. When finished
> mashing simply lift out the inner pot and use the outter pot to boil. The
> assembly can also be used in conjuction with RIMS heat stick and
> pump to upgrade this to a recirculating system in the future. _



I go in there regularly and saw them last time,but I didn't think much of the drainage capacity. The holes are too small and will restrict flow quite significantly. Also aluminium is not ideal.


----------



## sboreham

Edak said:


> I go in there regularly and saw them last time,but I didn't think much of the drainage capacity. The holes are too small and will restrict flow quite significantly. Also aluminium is not ideal.



Thanks for that, that's good information. Pity though I thought I was onto a winner.


----------



## Edak

ShaneyB said:


> Thanks for that, that's good information. Pity though I thought I was onto a winner.


Yeah I saw it and originally thought "wow that looks useful" but inspected closer and saw that it was not ideal. It is meant to replace a bag in a biab rig, but it would not work because of the lack of flow.


----------



## real_beer

Edak said:


>


 :icon_offtopic: 
Edak the build looks great, but I'm curious about your pooch.

Is it related to the rug in anyway? Or have you been doing DNA experiments with chameleon lizards, along the lines that Sheldon did in "Big Bang Theory" with his luminous goldfish?


----------



## Edak

real_beer said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> Edak the build looks great, but I'm curious about your pooch.
> 
> Is it related to the rug in anyway? Or have you been doing DNA experiments with chameleon lizards, along the lines that Sheldon did in "Big Bang Theory" with his luminous goldfish?


Rug? Nah my dog just has excessive skin issues.


----------



## breakbeer

ShaneyB said:


> It cost $199.95 so I assume there is free postage.



I wouldn't be making that assumption


----------



## sboreham

breakbeer said:


> I wouldn't be making that assumption



Well if it's not you only need to find something else worth more then 5c to get to keg kings free postage


----------



## sboreham

ShaneyB said:


> Well if it's not you only need to find something else worth more then 5c to get to keg kings free postage



Although a quick look on their website using my phone I couldn't see the free postage specified so they might not be doing it anymore.


----------



## Malted

Howdy Braumiser builders. I have had some questions about pot and malt pipe dimensions etc of the *50L Speidel Braumeister*, so I thought I would take some measurements and post for the benfit of all.
_There are more dimensions shown in the photos than I have discussed below._ 



_Left to right:_ short malt pipe, 50L malt pipe, 50L Braumiester. 
(Weights in green are how much the item pictured weighs).

I have calculated the maximum grain volume area as the total height of the malt pipe minus the height the filter plate sits up from the floor minus the height that the top filter plate reaches.
Maximum short malt pipe grain _height _= 275mm - 110mm - 33mm = 132mm (see explanation of 33mm in 2nd photo)
Maximum 50L malt pipe grain _height = _480mm - 110mm - 33mm = 337mm


*Volumes of these items:
*
Maximum volumes of usable area for grain: 
Short malt pipe *12.41 L
*50L malt pipe *31.68 L

*The _maximum _total volume of the BM _main vessel *= *_*85.14 L* . 
You would never actually fill a pot to the top if you want to leave it unattended during the boil. I am comfortable with a preboil volume of 66L generally not being able to boil over in this sized pot (100% rye I did recently was an exception, I had to knock the foam down). That is a head space of about 33% (or one third in the old measure) more than the preboil boil volume. According to Speidel (of the 50L unit) you can expect 50L of finished beer (allowing for all losses) from the 85L main vessel. Food for volume thought... 


*How much milled grain would they take?* 

If 1kg of grain displaces 0.65L... using my figures punched into *angus_grant*'s volume calculator spreadsheet http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry930100 Link at bottom of first post as a P.S.

Looking at some liquor to grist ratios:
Short malt pipe = 4.6kg (2.0L/kg), 3.9kg (at 2.5L/kg), 3.4kg (at 3.0L/kg)
50L malt pipe = 11.9 kg (at 2.0L/kg), 10 kg (at 2.5L/kg), 8.6kg (at 3.0L/kg) 

This accords with what users have said about the 50L malt pipe which I thought to be a total grain volume of 9-11kg (as listed by Speidel). Having said that I have mashed in and then added more grain to a total of 13kg of grain in the 50L malt pipe (and thought I could put more in... I had been drinking...). I reckon you could go more (especially if you have 'had a few' prior to mash in :lol: ) but perhaps you are risking making the grain bed too dense and the pumps might not be able to force the wort through it and then risk scorching of the wort? 

I would be happy enough to _*generalise*_ and say: 
The *short malt pipe*, in the 50L unit would _comfortably_ take *3.5kg - 4.5kg* of grain.
The *50L malt pipe* would _comfortably _take *8.5kg - 12.0kg* of grain. 

You could mash outside of these ranges but it is up to you to decide if this is _comfortable.
_




This is how the top filter plate would sit on top of the grain bed if it was as high as it could go. The horizontal tube sits on top of the malt pipe to hold it down with a wing nut. Because of the stabilising tube (stops the plate lifting/tilting to one side etc) length of 33 mm, the maximum height the top filter plate could be is 33mm less than the top of the malt pipe. 



The malt pipe has a V shaped rolled lip that protrudes into the malt pipe. The filter plate slides up and down the centre rod and the bottom filter plate stops on this lip. The plate thus sits about 110 mm above the floor of the BM. The maximum height of the element under the filter plate is 75mm. This equals 35 mm gap between the element max height and the filter plate in the malt pipe. This means that the element is surrounded by 10.34 L of wort underneath the malt pipe and grain.


----------



## TonyC

Malted said:


> Howdy Braumiser builders. I have had some questions about pot and malt pipe dimensions etc of the *50L Speidel Braumeister*, so I thought I would take some measurements and post for the benfit of all.
> _There are more dimensions shown in the photos than I have discussed below._
> 
> View attachment 57080
> 
> _Left to right:_ short malt pipe, 50L malt pipe, 50L Braumiester.
> (Weights in green are how much the item pictured weighs).
> 
> I have calculated the maximum grain volume area as the total height of the malt pipe minus the height the filter plate sits up from the floor minus the height that the top filter plate reaches.
> Maximum short malt pipe grain _height _= 275mm - 110mm - 33mm = 132mm (see explanation of 33mm in 2nd photo)
> Maximum 50L malt pipe grain _height = _480mm - 110mm - 33mm = 337mm
> 
> 
> *Volumes of these items:
> *
> Maximum volumes of usable area for grain:
> Short malt pipe *12.41 L
> *50L malt pipe *31.68 L
> 
> *The _maximum _total volume of the BM _main vessel *= *_*85.14 L* .
> You would never actually fill a pot to the top if you want to leave it unattended during the boil. I am comfortable with a preboil volume of 66L generally not being able to boil over in this sized pot (100% rye I did recently was an exception, I had to knock the foam down). That is a head space of about 33% (or one third in the old measure) more than the preboil boil volume. According to Speidel (of the 50L unit) you can expect 50L of finished beer (allowing for all losses) from the 85L main vessel. Food for volume thought...
> 
> 
> *How much milled grain would they take?*
> 
> If 1kg of grain displaces 0.65L... using my figures punched into *angus_grant*'s volume calculator spreadsheet http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry930100 Link at bottom of first post as a P.S.
> 
> Looking at some liquor to grist ratios:
> Short malt pipe = 4.6kg (2.0L/kg), 3.9kg (at 2.5L/kg), 3.4kg (at 3.0L/kg)
> 50L malt pipe = 11.9 kg (at 2.0L/kg), 10 kg (at 2.5L/kg), 8.6kg (at 3.0L/kg)
> 
> This accords with what users have said about the 50L malt pipe which I thought to be a total grain volume of 9-11kg (as listed by Speidel). Having said that I have mashed in and then added more grain to a total of 13kg of grain in the 50L malt pipe (and thought I could put more in... I had been drinking...). I reckon you could go more (especially if you have 'had a few' prior to mash in :lol: ) but perhaps you are risking making the grain bed too dense and the pumps might not be able to force the wort through it and then risk scorching of the wort?
> 
> I would be happy enough to _*generalise*_ and say:
> The *short malt pipe*, in the 50L unit would _comfortably_ take *3.5kg - 4.5kg* of grain.
> The *50L malt pipe* would _comfortably _take *8.5kg - 12.0kg* of grain.
> 
> You could mash outside of these ranges but it is up to you to decide if this is _comfortable.
> _
> 
> 
> View attachment 57077
> 
> This is how the top filter plate would sit on top of the grain bed if it was as high as it could go. The horizontal tube sits on top of the malt pipe to hold it down with a wing nut. Because of the stabilising tube (stops the plate lifting/tilting to one side etc) length of 33 mm, the maximum height the top filter plate could be is 33mm less than the top of the malt pipe.
> 
> View attachment 57078
> 
> The malt pipe has a V shaped rolled lip that protrudes into the malt pipe. The filter plate slides up and down the centre rod and the bottom filter plate stops on this lip. The plate thus sits about 110 mm above the floor of the BM. The maximum height of the element under the filter plate is 75mm. This equals 35 mm gap between the element max height and the filter plate in the malt pipe. This means that the element is surrounded by 10.34 L of wort underneath the malt pipe and grain.


 

Good stuff Malted, noe need to unload my camera now


----------



## Edak

Wow, I was not aware that the malt pipe would waste so much volume in the top and bottom. And here I am complaining that the usable volume of my malt pipe (between the plates) is 16.5L. This is in fact better than the original  I wonder how this compares to the actual 20L BM? rather than the 50LBM/20LMP combo.

I must admit that given that the BigW pot is somewhat tapered (so that they stack) the top filter plate does not slide up and down so may or may not be as ideal.


----------



## Edak

I also wonder why they left so much space below the lip in the malt pipe?


----------



## Florian

I can only assume that it is meant to reduce channeling through the malt pipe.


----------



## Edak

Florian said:


> I can only assume that it is meant to reduce channeling through the malt pipe.



I would have thought that the filter plate and fine mesh would have combated that reasonably well, however does the original BM have a flow control valve on the outlet of the pump?

I must admint that I could use some extra volume in my MP, just so that it sits up a bit higher as the original 23L i put in there gets close to the top of the outside of the pipe.


----------



## Florian

And there you have just given another good reason...

Still think that the extra space would benefit non channelling, as the wort would push more evenly towards the mesh etc than if the pump outlet was just below the mesh.

Then there is the thermowell that takes up 2 or 3cm.

Actually, have just looked at my 20L model, the mesh sits much lower than on the 50L, it's actually sitting at 4cm as opposed to 11cm. The pump outlet is pretty much in the middle. 

Maybe the outlets on the 50L are more towards the outer edges and therefore need a deeper area for the wort to unchannel to also 'hit' the middle of the malt pipe? Just speculating...


----------



## Malted

Edak said:


> I also wonder why they left so much space below the lip in the malt pipe?



The bottom filter plate is only 35mm above the center element (50L has two elements). 
That sounds reasonable to me to stop potential scorching of the grains closest to the element? It is likely to be as Matho found, due to the no bend zone of the element directly above the ends. The element sits quite high at 75mm at it's highest point. 

Perhaps being this high also leaves enough room to be able to get a cleaning device under the element? (between the pot base and the lower ring of the element - about 2 1/2 coils around)
The element I have ordered from thermal products for my minimiser build will be bent at 25-30mm from the ends, to keep the element at a lower profile. I will see whether this makes it difficult to clean the element. Of course I can go lower than this with my filter plate because as it is only a small unit, there will not be a center element under the bottom plate. I might try for about 20mm above the main vessel bottom. 
As Flo says, I reckon the large area would allow for more even distribution of the pressurised wort up through the filter plate. 

Having said that, the area under the bottom filter plate is excessive when using the short malt pipe. I think this may be why MHB says that the short malt pipe for the 50L BM is not the best bit of kit and that it is more suited for 30L production. Perhaps the short malt pipe makes the _minimum_ volume of water needed higher than perhaps it ought to be relative to the volume of grain?

Edit: no the 50L does not have flow control on the pump outlets. 
Edit#2 see this post for a picture inside the 50L BM. You can clearly see the pump outlets. *@Flo:* are the outlets more towards the outer edge compared to the 20L BM? http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=835439


----------



## Malted

TonyC said:


> Good stuff Malted, noe need to unload my camera now



Yeah but my missus really liked you taking her for a ride...


----------



## Florian

My element sits with 9cm well above the mesh at 4cm...


----------



## Bucks

Awesome job Malted!!! Cheers


----------



## Edak

Thanks for that bit of information, 40mm much more reasonable, i forgot that the 50l had an additional coil under the malt pipe, which close it perfectly. Yeah the smaller gap in the 20l makes sense. I have about 15mm under my lower filter so it is not directly on top of the outlet.


----------



## sboreham

That's Great information. based on the dimensions given, looking at the specs on braumeister's website and assuming the legs on the 50L are the same as the 20L. Then the dimensions of the 20L boil pot would be

Diameter 400mm
Height 460mm
Volume 57.83L 

I do also have a question. do you think the shape is important, I'm assuming the reason the braumeister is high with a small diameter is to allow the pump to push water through as much grain as possible, does this sound correct? If this is true, then from some looking around the 20L version seems to have more options for pre-made pots. A lot of the Pots around 85L seem to be shorter with larger diameters.


----------



## tuckerle71

Edak said:


> I also wonder why they left so much space below the lip in the malt pipe?



On the 50L Braumeister, there are two elements. One inside the base of the maltpipe and one between the maltpipe and the outside wall. The temperature sensor is inside the base of the maltpipe, if I remember correctly.


----------



## Edak

MrTucker said:


> On the 50L Braumeister, there are two elements. One inside the base of the maltpipe and one between the maltpipe and the outside wall. The temperature sensor is inside the base of the maltpipe, if I remember correctly.


Thanks Mr. Tucker but you were beaten to the answer.


----------



## Malted

ShaneyB said:


> I do also have a question. do you think the shape is important, I'm assuming the reason the braumeister is high with a small diameter is to allow the pump to push water through as much grain as possible, does this sound correct? If this is true, then from some looking around the 20L version seems to have more options for pre-made pots. A lot of the Pots around 85L seem to be shorter with larger diameters.


Yes I would suggest a cylindrical shape would be ideal.  

Perhaps shape is important to optimise extraction efficiency? 

"There are two ways to improve the uniformity of the flow: increase the depth of the grainbed or add more drains. Increasing the depth of the grainbed (see Figure 168) puts more of the grain higher up in the regions of flatter gradients. Adding more pipes and spacing them efficiently (see Figures 169-173) also flattens out the pressure gradients and make the flow through the grainbed more uniform."
Tun Geometry and Flow Potential. Palmer, How to Brew: http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixD-2.html

"A lower fluid velocity and a uniform distribution of collection points are desirable for achieving maximum extraction efficiency from the lautering process." http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/libr...3.4/palmer.html 

Deeper grainbeds have more uniform rinsing, all else being equal but some say that a tall/skinny vessel will be more prone to stuck runoffs because of the greater weight/area pushing down on the grain. On the other hand a thinner grain bed from a shorter/wider MT takes longer to get a clear runoff because you're running through a thinner filter bed.

I have seen on the interwebs that a height to width ratio of 1 to 2 is ideal for a _brew kettle_ to promote evaporation. However, the taller a pot is given a fixed volume, the taller the headspace will be and less chance of boilovers (eg preboil volume of 66L in the 85L vessel of the 50L BM). 

I'd say Speidel have one foot in each camp because if my maths are correct, the 50L BM has a height to width ratio of 1.2 to 1 and if you're correct about the 20L BM dimensions, it would appear to be a height to width ratio of 1.15 to 1.


----------



## tuckerle71

Edak said:


> Thanks Mr. Tucker but you were beaten to the answer.




That'll teach me not to refresh my browser when I get to work.


----------



## angus_grant

Hey gang,

I have finally got around to doing some temp maintaining runs on the sparge boiler. And I am coming up against some temp reading problems.

I have a 40mm thermowell which I put a sheathed SB18B20 that I purchased. There is a temp difference of 1.5 degrees Celsius between temp probe and digital thermometre I have inserted into the water.

Do you guys use some thermo-paste, a naked DB18B20 temp probe?? Or do you code for the difference in temp?

My PID settings are not far off. I think I need to adjust the integral variable a bit higher to actually get to my ramp temp (which in the tests was 40). It consistently sat on 39.1 as per probe and would not go higher. Which equated to 40.5 measured temp of water.

How are people handling temp reading?

Thanks,
Angus.


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> Hey gang,
> 
> I have finally got around to doing some temp maintaining runs on the sparge boiler. And I am coming up against some temp reading problems.
> 
> I have a 40mm thermowell which I put a sheathed SB18B20 that I purchased. There is a temp difference of 1.5 degrees Celsius between temp probe and digital thermometre I have inserted into the water.
> 
> Do you guys use some thermo-paste, a naked DB18B20 temp probe?? Or do you code for the difference in temp?
> 
> My PID settings are not far off. I think I need to adjust the integral variable a bit higher to actually get to my ramp temp (which in the tests was 40). It consistently sat on 39.1 as per probe and would not go higher. Which equated to 40.5 measured temp of water.
> 
> How are people handling temp reading?
> 
> Thanks,
> Angus.


Hi Angus, 
You should always use thermal paste to ensure that the sensor couples with the thermowell. My sensor was spot on so I didn't need to make any adjustments, but if yours has an offset then apply it after the measurement is taken in software. 

If your temp is not reaching target then you increase the P factor slightly, the I factor should not be relied upon for this. I is intended to correct long term small errors. 

My analogy is P is the accelerator and D is the brake. If you don't accelerate enough you won't get to your target but overdoing it will require the brakes. Once you reach your destination you don't use either pedal and if you are on a slope you might start rolling away from the target and need to apply accelerator again. The slope is related to the I factor.

edit: are you sure your digital thermometer is right?


----------



## glenwal

angus_grant said:


> There is a temp difference of 1.5 degrees Celsius between temp probe and digital thermometre I have inserted into the water.



Are you sure there is a difference, or is there just a lag because you're not using thermal paste? If it is actually a difference, there should be no problem with correcting it in software. 

If its lag, then you don't want to be adjusting or you're measurements will then be out once the probe has come up to temp. To reduce the lag, you want to make sure the heat can transfer as eaisly as possible from the liquid to the temp probe (eg. by using thermal paste)


----------



## angus_grant

Thanks Edak. I may end up having to strip off the little stainless shield that is placed over the sensor to get good contact with the thermowell.

Off to Jaycar tomorrow night to get some thermal paste.

Thanks for the analogy. Certainly when testing my PID code with the little kitchen kettle it was all about "applying the brakes" so maybe why I got stuck on making adjustments with integral adjustments. I had no problems ramping up temps. So it is all a bit different when heating up 10L of water in a big pot.

I will check my digital thermometer against another digital, and also against my voltmeter which can also measure temperature. From previous checking the other digital one was out of whack a bit though. Maybe I should pony up for an proper industrial glass thermometer as well. You can't have too many thermometers, can you?


----------



## angus_grant

Glen: Something else to test.

I was running the tests last night last thing before going to bed so didn't have time to do some decent investigation. I have a feeling it may be that the temp probe is not "attached" fully to the system, and not really lag. Something the thermal paste should help equalise.

Maybe eventually the thermowell will reach the same temp as the water, but the problem is that will result in temp overshoot as it would take the thermowell a long time to match internal temps to external temps


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> So it is all a bit different when heating up 10L of water in a big pot.



And it is even harder when you have over 25L of water and grain...

To further complicate my above analogy; unlike a car, the accelerator in our PID can only be fully on or off and you are always going up hill (because you apply heat to something that naturally cools). Adding insulation reduced the incline of the slope. Also, when I say "brakes", given that we don't actively cool, it would be more like the car has some intelligence which detects the distance and speed and cuts off the accelerator rather than applying brakes. This means D overrides P.
The I factor is hard to explain, but it could be like a back-seat driver (kids) going "are we there yet?". After a while you get frustrated with the little bastards so you plant the foot down a bit more. Actually that is a terrible description so I will end it there but note that it is an accumulative value that can get out of hand if left to accumulate over a long period of time, which in this case would be during ramping. 

In my case:
* I have reduced the incline of the slope dramatically by adding a jacket and a lid (fully covered during mash and partially covered with a domed lid during boil).
* I have a 1-second window, which means I can apply the accelerator once per second (The duration of which is dependent on my accelerator and the car overriding it)
* To combat the "I" value getting out of hand during ramp times, a trick I use is to only start accumulating the "I" when the measured temperature is near the set point within a tolerance of about 0.5 degrees. This is great for taking it out of the original equation when ramping because it will not really contribute to overshoot but will help the system to hold the temperature a bit better.


----------



## angus_grant

yeh, when I was working out the PID variables on my kettle testing I knew I'd have to change them fairly radically going full size, and major changes again when I add grain.

I'm going to get some spent grain from someone to do some testing with the grain mass in there as well. Or I may do a BIAB with the grain I currently have in the sparge boiler and then use that for testing the full vessel.

I'm going to add insulation in an effort to reduce ramping times and increase boiling rate, and it will provide some thermal protection during the mash process.

To combat PID kookiness, my code fires the element full-tilt until the current temp is 85% of target temp and then switches over to PID control. I will tweak this percentage when working with full water and grain, but it will probably increase towards 100%

I look forward to the next 4 pages as we all try and develop an analogy for the PID algorithm. he he...


----------



## angus_grant

Added some thermal paste last night and the temps are now closer. Just inside 1 degree difference

I used a digital thermometer I grabbed from CraftBrewer and had another digital thermometer I grabbed from another homebrew store and none of them agree. The two digital temp probes are touching each other in the pot so theoretically should read almost the same, but just over 1 degree difference.

I am now thinking about getting one of these and inserting my DS18B20 which is sheathed inside a stainless shield (from manufacturer). This should get me fast results at least.






So how do I test the accuracy of the DS18B20? Which thermometer do I trust as being correct? Or do I just assume the DS18B20 is accurate (or more to the point, it should be consistently inaccurate and I just adjust my systems) and move on with my project. :huh:


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> Added some thermal paste last night and the temps are now closer. Just inside 1 degree difference
> 
> I used a digital thermometer I grabbed from CraftBrewer and had another digital thermometer I grabbed from another homebrew store and none of them agree. The two digital temp probes are touching each other in the pot so theoretically should read almost the same, but just over 1 degree difference.
> 
> I am now thinking about getting one of these and inserting my DS18B20 which is sheathed inside a stainless shield (from manufacturer). This should get me fast results at least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So how do I test the accuracy of the DS18B20? Which thermometer do I trust as being correct? Or do I just assume the DS18B20 is accurate (or more to the point, it should be consistently inaccurate and I just adjust my systems) and move on with my project. :huh:



Looks like a good thermowell idea!

I used this sensor in my system, which is a DS18b20 already in a thermowell.

For calibration, although I could use a multitude of calibration tools which I have at work, I usually trust a good old thermometer, not a mercury one though. I am lucky enough that all of my thermometers, analog and digital agree on what the temperature is.


----------



## bonj

angus_grant said:


> I am now thinking about getting one of these and inserting my DS18B20 which is sheathed inside a stainless shield (from manufacturer). This should get me fast results at least.



That's exactly what I have here. I will be using it in a t-piece on the mash return to the tun.

As for accuracy, my perspective is that every system is different and needs to be learnt anyway, so why worry about inconsistencies between sensors, and just start brewing with it. You will soon figure out if you need to adjust your mash regimes.


----------



## matho

hey angus the ds18b20 is accurate to +- 0.5 deg c over a range of -10 to +85 deg, I have used it along side of my brewing thermometer and they both say the same thing. I have found that my digital thermometer is different by about 1.5 deg at mash temp but then agrees with the lab thermometer at boil which the ds 18b20 doesn't. The actual temperature isn't all too important just repeatability is.

cheers steve


----------



## woodwormm

Edak said:


> I used this sensor in my system, which is a DS18b20 already in a thermowell.



can anyone explain the wiring on these probes? the site says it's single wire interface, yet shows 3 wires and the thermometer they link is 12Volt, . Is there any chance these would work on an STC1000?


----------



## bonj

printed forms section said:


> can anyone explain the wiring on these probes? the site says it's single wire interface, yet shows 3 wires and the thermometer they link is 12Volt, . Is there any chance these would work on an STC1000?


Unlikely they'd work on an STC1000. These are digital sensors. 

The 3 wires will be +5V, DATA, and GND

I can't remember the colours, but DATA will likely be YELLOW, and GND either BLUE or BLACK, +5V should be RED


----------



## angus_grant

:lol:, nice to hear that no-ones readings match across different thermometers.
How on earth do we make decent beer when we can't get the mash temp accurate to 0.1 deg?
OMG, I'm freaking out!!!!!! DMS, stuck ferments, no bubbling in airlocks!!! waaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! <<SLAP!!!!!!!>>
 

As I alluded to before, as long as the temp readings are consistently incorrect I can adjust the software. And Matho's comment about repeatability. And confirmed by Bonj's comment about brewing on the damn thing and adjust later..

Edak's temp sensor is a cheaper option ($US10) than what I linked to. $US13 for compression fitting + $US20 for temp probe + postage from US. What I currently have is the DS18B20 sensor in a stainless tube but will require some form of compression fitting to the pot. Looks like I'll be ordering four of Edaks sensors. One for the sparge boiler, one for the main system, and two for my fermentors as I am going to convert them over to software controlled instead of the FridgeMates.


----------



## woodwormm

Bonj said:


> Unlikely they'd work on an STC1000. These are digital sensors.
> 
> The 3 wires will be +5V, DATA, and GND
> 
> I can't remember the colours, but DATA will likely be YELLOW, and GND either BLUE or BLACK, +5V should be RED




aaah, i'm pretty well educated on 240 and 12 volt systems... now gotta learn digital, but that makes sense. so essentially they've got a power supply (+5V), information supply back to equipment/thermometer (DATA) and a Ground. 

looks like a pretty cheap, super useful thermometer to couple the probe and the readout together.


----------



## bonj

printed forms section said:


> aaah, i'm pretty well educated on 240 and 12 volt systems... now gotta learn digital, but that makes sense. so essentially they've got a power supply (+5V), information supply back to equipment/thermometer (DATA) and a Ground.
> 
> looks like a pretty cheap, super useful thermometer to couple the probe and the readout together.


Yep, the DATA wire is bi-directional using the "OneWire" protocol. Basically, the sensor has a unique 64 bit address and is polled individually. When it receives a request addressed to it, it will send the data back on the same wire. You can put a number of them (I think 15) on a single data wire and poll them using their unique addresses.


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> Edak's temp sensor is a cheaper option ($US10) than what I linked to.



I was in the same position, I now have extra probes with the metal sheath which I didn't use in my BM but might use it in my next fridge.

Yeah I was trying to cut cost out where ever I could and found that sensor which is awesome. I think that sure electronics has an ebay store too, so compare the prices. Mine works very well, though I am not sure about how thick the thermowell is mine appeared to be high quality.



printed forms section said:


> aaah, i'm pretty well educated on 240 and 12 volt systems... now gotta learn digital, but that makes sense. so essentially they've got a power supply (+5V), information supply back to equipment/thermometer (DATA) and a Ground.
> 
> looks like a pretty cheap, super useful thermometer to couple the probe and the readout together.



for the supposed 1-wire system, you can get away without having to connect the 5V and have a pull-up on the data line so that reduces it to two wires. Also, if you had a common and reliable ground connection at either end of the sensor then technically you might not need a GND, henceforth they called it a 1-wire system. I use mine in 2-wire configuration.

I think that mine actually came with red black and white wires, red=5V, black=gnd, white=data


----------



## bonj

Edak said:


> I was in the same position, I now have extra probes with the metal sheath which I didn't use in my BM but might use it in my next fridge.
> 
> Yeah I was trying to cut cost out where ever I could and found that sensor which is awesome. I think that sure electronics has an ebay store too, so compare the prices. Mine works very well, though I am not sure about how thick the thermowell is mine appeared to be high quality.
> 
> 
> 
> for the supposed 1-wire system, you can get away without having to connect the 5V and have a pull-up on the data line so that reduces it to two wires. Also, if you had a common and reliable ground connection at either end of the sensor then technically you might not need a GND, henceforth they called it a 1-wire system. I use mine in 2-wire configuration.
> 
> I think that mine actually came with red black and white wires, red=5V, black=gnd, white=data


I use mine in powered mode. You still need the 4.7K pullup on the data line in powered mode.


----------



## angus_grant

Edak said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <SNIP>


Hey Edak,

Do you have any pics of your heating element installed? That is the next bit of my system I am going to buy and will probably go with the same element you got from Thermal Products. is it still working OK for you? Any problems after your first batch? Or have you done a couple more by now..

Would they remember how they bent yours up? I'm in Brisbane so can't really take my pots in to them. But I am using a Big W pot for the malt pipe and a 50L main vessel so it would be bent up the same as yours. I haven't really found any heating element places up here in Brisbane.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Matho 

Righto, time to give us all the cost for your BM clone? what is your total cost for the build that included parts you already had>>>it would be great to know as this thread and i quote - Be [email protected]#ked if im paying that much brewery! 

Edak, 

i think you would have an idea of what yours cost to build are too>> how does that compare to an actual BM on price, dont forget to include your time into the build at some kind of value for the sake of comparison.

I ask because its been 12 months since this thread started and I am border line buying one v's building one just like you have>>


----------



## Edak

Pratty1 said:


> Matho
> 
> Righto, time to give us all the cost for your BM clone? what is your total cost for the build that included parts you already had>>>it would be great to know as this thread and i quote - Be [email protected]#ked if im paying that much brewery!
> 
> Edak,
> 
> i think you would have an idea of what yours cost to build are too>> how does that compare to an actual BM on price, dont forget to include your time into the build at some kind of value for the sake of comparison.
> 
> I ask because its been 12 months since this thread started and I am border line buying one v's building one just like you have>>



Hey Pratty, 

The costs do add up, I added it up and found that it cost me about $950 in actual parts, of which the largest contributors are the Pump (160), the element (135), the pot (110) and base (110). This does not include any tools that I purchased (which I did buy some drill bits, hole punches and grinder discs), nor does it include my time of which there was an exhaustive amount. If I were to charge the same hourly rate as I do when I do Engineering work, then the cost would be phenomenal and much more than a BM, however I count this as a hobby and as part of the fun. The programming alone takes a considerable amount of time.

Was it worth it to me? Yeah.

Would I do it again? Possibly because I know where to get everything, know how to use all of my tools and I wouldn't have to write the code again.


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> Hey Edak,
> 
> Do you have any pics of your heating element installed? That is the next bit of my system I am going to buy and will probably go with the same element you got from Thermal Products. is it still working OK for you? Any problems after your first batch? Or have you done a couple more by now..
> 
> Would they remember how they bent yours up? I'm in Brisbane so can't really take my pots in to them. But I am using a Big W pot for the malt pipe and a 50L main vessel so it would be bent up the same as yours. I haven't really found any heating element places up here in Brisbane.



Hey Angus, 

I posted it earlier, but this is the element in the bottom.





The guys had no idea about bending it right, I had to manipulate it afterwards to get it (partially) right too.


----------



## Malted

Edak said:


> I posted it earlier, but this is the element in the bottom.



Sorry I had not seen this earlier. So you're obviously not concerned about having the temp probe that close to the element?


----------



## Edak

Malted said:


> Sorry I had not seen this earlier. So you're obviously not concerned about having the temp probe that close to the element?



Not worried at all, the pump inlet is there and any time that the element is on the pum is running so there is always flow around the temp sensor. Believe me you aren't the first to ask that question .

I figured that if anyone wants to see any of the other images of my brewery I have enabled a folder for public viewing on my webserver. 

Cobbers Brewery Image List


----------



## Dan Pratt

Edak said:


> Hey Pratty,
> 
> The costs do add up, I added it up and found that it cost me about $950 in actual parts, of which the largest contributors are the Pump (160), the element (135), the pot (110) and base (110). This does not include any tools that I purchased (which I did buy some drill bits, hole punches and grinder discs), nor does it include my time of which there was an exhaustive amount. If I were to charge the same hourly rate as I do when I do Engineering work, then the cost would be phenomenal and much more than a BM, however I count this as a hobby and as part of the fun. The programming alone takes a considerable amount of time.
> 
> Was it worth it to me? Yeah.
> 
> Would I do it again? Possibly because I know where to get everything, know how to use all of my tools and I wouldn't have to write the code again.



its an impressive build that is for sure, well done and the best of brewing to you. thanks for sharing the costs.

Matho must still be adding his up>>>lol.


----------



## angus_grant

ha ha, I think I may have asked about the proximity of the probe to the element. I couldn't find that image though and scoured through this thread. At this stage I am planning on having the temp probe in the bottom of the malt pipe so I get the temp of the liquid before it goes through the grain. That may change when I start getting the malt pipe built and the filter plates and perhaps the temp probe won't fit.

Edak: would you bend up the element yourself or would you still have them do it? You mentioned having to rejig the element a bit after they had bent it so wondered what the issues were there... And how is it unbent? A straight 2240mm of element, and how would they ship it to brisbane?

Thanks for all the pics.


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> ha ha, I think I may have asked about the proximity of the probe to the element. I couldn't find that image though and scoured through this thread. At this stage I am planning on having the temp probe in the bottom of the malt pipe so I get the temp of the liquid before it goes through the grain. That may change when I start getting the malt pipe built and the filter plates and perhaps the temp probe won't fit.
> 
> Edak: would you bend up the element yourself or would you still have them do it? You mentioned having to rejig the element a bit after they had bent it so wondered what the issues were there... And how is it unbent? A straight 2240mm of element, and how would they ship it to brisbane?
> 
> Thanks for all the pics.


Hey Angus, 
I wouldn't have thought to bend the element myself because I don't have any experience doing so and would have been afraid to damage it. They are supplied in a straight length with bushes fitted. They mentioned something about a bend radius which must be followed. One of the images on my site shows how I wanted it but the 90 degree bends were made at same length from each end which made it difficult for me. 

No idea how it would be shipped, I drove across town to get it and had it bent on the spot.


----------



## scooter_59

Hi Edak,
What a piece of art . Well done . I did have a look at your piccies and what a top job . Have you looked at putting elbows on the outlet side of the pump ? The reason I ask is , I would be concerned with the hose being bent so much it may have a tendancy to collapse under the heat of the wort .Have you had any problems with that side of things ?


Cheers
Leachim


----------



## Edak

leachim said:


> Hi Edak,
> What a piece of art . Well done . I did have a look at your piccies and what a top job . Have you looked at putting elbows on the outlet side of the pump ? The reason I ask is , I would be concerned with the hose being bent so much it may have a tendancy to collapse under the heat of the wort .Have you had any problems with that side of things ?
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Leachim


Thanks Leachim, 

I understand your concern but the pressure on the outlet side is great so much so that I had to throttle the output significantly with the ball valve. The little piece of silicone doesn't come close to making any difference here. I initially had the same thought though. It did catch one little fragment of a grain in it though when I was cleaning the system out


----------



## Malted

angus_grant said:


> Edak: would you bend up the element yourself or would you still have them do it? ... wondered what the issues were there... A straight 2240mm of element, and how would they ship it to brisbane?


You can read all of the text, or skip to the colour coded answers.  

I have ordered a regular element (i.e not stainless) element from Thermal products. Postage is not a problem. I ordered a 1755mm element and they said they could send it via Toll Ipec, who can carry much longer items for them.

Then I decided to get them to bend it for me. They will do basic bending (ends at 90 degrees and basic U-shapes) in the shop (i.e sales folks with off the shelf stuff) but for anything circular they get it specially made in the factory. Lead time is 12 days after payment is made.
My 'custom' 1755mm 2000w element cost me $182 plus $22 postage from Melbourne to Adelaide.
I sent them a picture of Mathos element (see picture below) with my required dimensions on it. I am building a unit the same dimensions as Mathos: 19L BigW pot for the main vessel and a 9L BigW pot for the malt pipe. 


You can see in the picture that Matho had to contend with a large 'no bend' zone near the bushes. I have been assured that the 'custom' element I have ordered directly from the factory who will bend 25-30mm up from the bushes (instead of 70-90mm as per Mathos). This will allow me to potentially have a smaller minimum, strike water or boil volume. Since there is only one element in mine this is probably not critical but if you had two elements (as per the 50L Braumeister) you would want the element under the malt pipe to sit as low as possible. 
I also wanted the bushes 120mm or less apart so they could fit into the controller enclosure. I have not yet received the element so do not know if I will be able to squish the element ends in with everything else in the enclosure, or if it will need some 'adjustments'.


----------



## PeteQ

For the guys that haven't bought an element yet I bought a Tobins 2400 watt part number BM73HO for $54. I was also quoted $49 for the 1800 watt for those that care...
I work for a company that pumps lots of cash through wholesalers and apparently they put no margin on the element for me so i assume that's the best you're going to get. 

The only bad thing about the element is it sits really high in the pot (about 100mm) but it was really easy to bend to shape, it took me maybe 5 minutes of stuffing about. I'm using a 19l Big W pot at the moment as the main pot and the element sits about half way up the 8l malt pipe. 

I'm more than halfway through my braumiser build and will post photos when all done


----------



## Malted

PeteQ said:


> For the guys that haven't bought an element yet I bought a Tobins 2400 watt part number BM73HO for $54. I was also quoted $49 for the 1800 watt for those that care...
> I work for a company that pumps lots of cash through wholesalers and apparently they put no margin on the element for me so i assume that's the best you're going to get.



It would appear as though you got a better price. Listed trade price is higher than that. 

http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ItemHTML/KR73HO00.htm 2400 watt BM73HO Direct link
http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ItemHTML/KR73FO00.htm 1800 watt BM73FO00 Direct link

At any rate, the pricing and product looks good. That's good info, thanks for sharing.


----------



## angus_grant

Thanks Malted. All great info. I was going to buy my grain as the next big purchase but think I will switch across to purchasing the heating element. Even if I have the grain mill I could only do mini-BIAB. Once I install the heating element in the big pot I can do full-size BIAB whilst building the malt pipe so getting some experience in AG brewing before I start using the system.

PeteQ: I think the problem with the heating element sitting so high it results in a high minimum water level to cover the heating element in a bigger main vessel. According to calculations from my volume calculations spreadsheet linked to earlier in the thread, it would require almost 24L of initial water with a grain bill of 4L, which would not leave much space for sparging the grains after mashing. And that is with fairly conservative figures for grain absorption, and water level above element.

The element height would most probably be fine in the 8L malt pipe / 19L main vessel combo as you would always have quite a lot of water in there anyway to get as much wort as possible.


----------



## frostih

Hi angus_grant,

you're in Brisbane I believe you wrote. I went yesterday to a place called Cynebar in Brisbane and bought a 3000W , 2,5m long element for $50 +GST, they can bend it for you there and then for $5 +GST per bend. They did a circular/spiral bend and also 90 degree bend. It has got gaskets and all you need. They also got lower wattage elements for a bit less. 

http://www.cynebar.com.au/

The only problem that I had with it was that they bend it about 12cm from the gaskets, they said that it they couldn't bend it any closer to the gasket because then they would ruin it. But then I read instructions from Thermal Electric on DIY elements when I got home and bend it in myself closer the gasket to bring down the height of the element. The results aren't the prettiest but I think it should work. I did continuity test on the element and it still seems fine, but I haven't actually tried it out yet. 

http://www.thermalelectric.com.au/document...U-Bend%20It.pdf


----------



## angus_grant

Hi Frostih,

Sounds like the goods.. Let me know how it goes with the extra bends you put in. It's looking around $200 for an element from Thermal Products so if I can get one from these guys for cheaper, that would be nice..

Would be good if you could upload some pics of the element.

Cheers,
Angus.


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> Hi Frostih,
> 
> Sounds like the goods.. Let me know how it goes with the extra bends you put in. It's looking around $200 for an element from Thermal Products so if I can get one from these guys for cheaper, that would be nice..
> 
> Would be good if you could upload some pics of the element.
> 
> Cheers,
> Angus.



$200 from thermal products?

Mine was $135 bent for me. Incoloy 800 , 2400W 2215mm


----------



## angus_grant

Malted said:


> <SNIP>
> My 'custom' 1755mm 2000w element cost me $182 plus $22 postage from Melbourne to Adelaide.
> <SNIP>



Well according to Malted he paid $204 (inc shipping) for a 2000W element and I am getting a 2400W element, so imagine it will be slightly more expensive.

But your price is well below that. Hmm, what gives???


----------



## Malted

angus_grant said:


> Well according to Malted he paid $204 (inc shipping) for a 2000W element and I am getting a 2400W element, so imagine it will be slightly more expensive.
> 
> But your price is well below that. Hmm, what gives???




Mine was not 'off the shelf'. It was going to be custom built, apparently.


----------



## PeteQ

Sorry if this has been brought up before but I'm hoping to have my braumiser up and going this weekend but I'm struggling to seal the malt pipe.

What i was planning on doing is cutting out a 20mm ring out of a silicone baking mat and sticking it to the bottom of the malt pipe. I used selleys knead it which seemed to work and it sealed perfectly in the main pot but when i lifted the MP out it left behind the silicone ring. Apparently knead it doesn't stick to silicone.
I've been told silicone sealant also doesn't stick to silicone so i haven't tried that yet.

I also tried 8mm od hose around the inside of the MP opening but that was probably never going to work.

I was really hoping my silicone solution would work but should i just get some more 12mm hose and be done with it?


----------



## Edak

PeteQ said:


> Sorry if this has been brought up before but I'm hoping to have my braumiser up and going this weekend but I'm struggling to seal the malt pipe.
> 
> What i was planning on doing is cutting out a 20mm ring out of a silicone baking mat and sticking it to the bottom of the malt pipe. I used selleys knead it which seemed to work and it sealed perfectly in the main pot but when i lifted the MP out it left behind the silicone ring. Apparently knead it doesn't stick to silicone.
> I've been told silicone sealant also doesn't stick to silicone so i haven't tried that yet.
> 
> I also tried 8mm od hose around the inside of the MP opening but that was probably never going to work.
> 
> I was really hoping my silicone solution would work but should i just get some more 12mm hose and be done with it?



I used 12mm and it works a treat. My pipe has a lip at the bottom so it's kinda like an "L" so the 12mm goes over that and the lower part of the "L" seals against the base nicely. I have only the very slightest and slow leak at the join, which I have no idea how to eliminate but I otherwise get really good flow through the grain bed so I haven't worried too much about it. 

Have a look at "build2" image on my website and you will just see the inner facing lip (I have no silicone installed at that point), the "outside2" picture shows with 12mm installed.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Edak, 

After reading all 48 pages again, very inspired to get one up and running. 

It was prpbably in the thread somewhere i know, can you tell me what was the sizes of the pots that you used for your build. H and D on the 2 vessels?

Dan


----------



## wotafm

[/quote]
I've been told silicone sealant also doesn't stick to silicone so i haven't tried that yet
[/quote]

peteq give the silicon adhesive a go when we stick silicon rubber to machines at work we use foodgrade silicon as it is about the only thing that does stick

cheers wotafm


----------



## Edak

Pratty1 said:


> Edak,
> 
> After reading all 48 pages again, very inspired to get one up and running.
> 
> It was prpbably in the thread somewhere i know, can you tell me what was the sizes of the pots that you used for your build. H and D on the 2 vessels?
> 
> Dan



Hey pratty,

Big pot...
Top edge (diameter) = 420mm 
Bottom Edge (diameter) = 390mm
Height = 395mm

Small pot is the bigw 19L pot, which i think is about 290x290


----------



## Dan Pratt

Edak said:


> Hey pratty,
> 
> Big pot...
> Top edge (diameter) = 420mm
> Bottom Edge (diameter) = 390mm
> Height = 395mm
> 
> Small pot is the bigw 19L pot, which i think is about 290x290



Good man, the pot I was looking at from handy imports is $123 and a 46L and It meets those specs, it's aluminium, is that ok?


----------



## PeteQ

> peteq give the silicon adhesive a go when we stick silicon rubber to machines at work we use foodgrade silicon as it is about the only thing that does stick
> 
> cheers wotafm



Thanks wotafm, I've quickly googled it and it seems no one has found a food grade silicone sealant?

I'm hoping someone can prove me wrong?


----------



## gap

What about the silicone sealant used on Aquariums?
You would think that was food safe, not sure about ability to 
handle heat.


----------



## Edak

Pratty1 said:


> Good man, the pot I was looking at from handy imports is $123 and a 46L and It meets those specs, it's aluminium, is that ok?



I personally don't like the idea of using aluminium pots for this, for the following reasons:
1. Stainless fittings on al pot = possible galvanic corrosion
2. Al pot bottom will possibly deform when you screw down the malt pipe hard
3. The system will not be as easy to clean because you can't use the same harsh chemicals on Al as you can with Stainless (think about that element you want to be nice and clean)

My 50L stainless pot was from memory only $110 and it is a PERFECT fit.



PeteQ said:


> Thanks wotafm, I've quickly googled it and it seems no one has found a food grade silicone sealant?
> 
> I'm hoping someone can prove me wrong?



Have a loot at THIS thread.


----------



## claypot

Hey all,
Just wodering if anyone has used any of these elements from evilbay? Was even thinking may be able to partly straighten and re bend?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3KW-Stainless-S...=item2574e2b397

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AC-220V-3KW-12m...=item2574e63c97

With free postage the price is definatly right, plus I have brought from these guy's before with no drama, postage a bit slow though.
Cheers.


----------



## QldKev

claypot said:


> Hey all,
> Just wodering if anyone has used any of these elements from evilbay? Was even thinking may be able to partly straighten and re bend?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3KW-Stainless-S...=item2574e2b397
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AC-220V-3KW-12m...=item2574e63c97
> 
> With free postage the price is definatly right, plus I have brought from these guy's before with no drama, postage a bit slow though.
> Cheers.




Don't know how far you can bend them, but I have bent the 2kw ones with no issues. 3 out of the 4 uxcel elements I use I have been bent. 

This one you can see I have bent it outwards and also downwards, still works 100%. I've never tried a major bend in them, but I assume the U at the end is just formed that way, but I don't really know. 






QldKev


----------



## notung

claypot said:


> Hey all,
> Just wodering if anyone has used any of these elements from evilbay? Was even thinking may be able to partly straighten and re bend?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3KW-Stainless-S...=item2574e2b397
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AC-220V-3KW-12m...=item2574e63c97
> 
> With free postage the price is definatly right, plus I have brought from these guy's before with no drama, postage a bit slow though.
> Cheers.



Hey claypot, I have just recently paid for a cheapie $16 element from the same seller - uxcell. Here's mine. I can't say how it performs yet obviously but will make sure to let you know. Why did I choose it?

- because my malt pipe will seal using camlocks (like ArnieW's system) I have no need to bend an element round it
- I wanted an element that fitted through the bottom of the pot rather than through side wall (I want my machine to be most elegant!)
- price: replacement elements for, say, Birko urns and such seem to cost a bomb!

Will let you know how install and performance goes. Does anyone know whether these come with gaskets etc for sealing? Cheers.


----------



## claypot

Nice one thanks for the reply's guy's.
I was hoping to bend one braumeiser style, I think it would be possible, maybe just not as pretty as others.


----------



## claypot

notung said:


> Hey claypot, I have just recently paid for a cheapie $16 element from the same seller - uxcell. Here's mine. I can't say how it performs yet obviously but will make sure to let you know. Why did I choose it?
> 
> - because my malt pipe will seal using camlocks (like ArnieW's system) I have no need to bend an element round it
> - I wanted an element that fitted through the bottom of the pot rather than through side wall (I want my machine to be most elegant!)
> - price: replacement elements for, say, Birko urns and such seem to cost a bomb!
> 
> Will let you know how install and performance goes. Does anyone know whether these come with gaskets etc for sealing? Cheers.




Hey Notung,
I liked the look of that one and was considering it as the kw was right for mine. 
Only thing was I want to whirlpool in mine so not sure if the element would shag it up. Other than that it looks perfect.


----------



## seamad

gap said:


> What about the silicone sealant used on Aquariums?
> You would think that was food safe, not sure about ability to
> handle heat.
> 
> 
> Selleys say that it isnt food grade, i did use it as assumed it probably is ok if you can use it in aquariums. I did find though that it didnt stick after a couple of brews, so i just borrow the pressure cooker seal on brewdays, much better.


----------



## notung

claypot said:


> Hey Notung,
> I liked the look of that one and was considering it as the kw was right for mine.
> Only thing was I want to whirlpool in mine so not sure if the element would shag it up. Other than that it looks perfect.



Good point about the whirlpooling. I plan on doing the same, manually at first but then with a pump in the future. I know that the center copper element in my birko urn doesn't adversely affect a trub cone forming in whirlpool. This element may not be quite in the center for the braumiser build but I feel pretty confident it'll be fine. I'll be installing the element as centrally as I can.


----------



## wotafm

PeteQ Dow corning 732 is FDA approved for food contact and should handle the heat 

cheers wotafm


----------



## Edak

wotafm said:


> PeteQ Dow corning 732 is FDA approved for food contact and should handle the heat
> 
> cheers wotafm



Yeah, that is the one quoted in the second post of the thread I linked. I think that it is the best option for him.


----------



## real_beer

PeteQ said:


> Thanks wotafm, I've quickly googled it and it seems no one has found a food grade silicone sealant?
> 
> I'm hoping someone can prove me wrong?


I've been looking for a while as well, found this yesterday and ordered a tube, might be good for what you want if you don't mind the grey colour. 

http://www.crh.com.au/products/fabrication...grade-silicone/




Cheers


----------



## PeteQ

Thanks for the heads up everyone, I got some more 12mm hose and it worked perfectly.

On Sunday I brewed with my braumiser and it was by far the easiest brew day i have ever had! The only problem I had was the temps were out by 1 degree at 42, 2 degrees at 66 and boiling at 96.5. I haven't changed any PID settings in the brauduino, should I reduce P and increase D?

If people are wondering about numbers in a 19L main pot and 9L malt pipe using 2.2kg grain i got 12L of 1046 wort, about 79% efficiency (with 50% wheat). Next brew I will crush the grain a little more as it seemed the little brown pump was having no problems pushing through the coarse crush and maybe push it to 2.5kg grain.

I completely forgot about taking photos, I will hopefully brew again this weekend. My braumiser is a much more ghetto version than Mathos and Edaks but still gets the job done!

Thanks everyone for your input as I would have never been able to get it done without it! 

Cheers


----------



## wotafm

i would be keen to see your pictures peteq. i test ran my unit on Monday so i just need to give it all a good wash and try it out 

can anyone suggest a good easy brew for a new unit and a driver who has not done a A/G before.

cheers wotafm


----------



## tynian

Malted said:


> It would appear as though you got a better price. Listed trade price is higher than that.
> 
> http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ItemHTML/KR73HO00.htm 2400 watt BM73HO Direct link
> http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ItemHTML/KR73FO00.htm 1800 watt BM73FO00 Direct link
> 
> At any rate, the pricing and product looks good. That's good info, thanks for sharing.


Hi Pete,

Was this element bendable? If so, it seems like a great option for my element.

Cheers
Rob


----------



## Dan Pratt

tynian said:


> Hi Pete,
> 
> Was this element bendable? If so, it seems like a great option for my element.
> 
> Cheers
> Rob




Hi Rob, 

I have been talking via email with Michael at Tobins and he has given me a fair bit of info about the 2400w element. He said that they are bendable and the no bend zone is 75mm up from the brushes. 

They do not bend them for you, you would have to do that yourself. Postage to the central coast from sydney is $25 and i got quoted $65 for the element BH730HO(plus gst) 

He did say that the elements have a minimum bend radius of 25mm which shouldn't effect making the circle(emailed him the picture from the thread)

Dan


----------



## PeteQ

Rob and Dan

Absolutely recommend that element. It took me about 5 minutes to bend into shape using the 9l malt pipe as a guide and my knee for the 90 degree bends. It does sit quite high in the pot, about 110mm from the base.

In my 19l pot it ramped up to temperatures nice and quick and the boil I had to turn down a bit (with the brauduino very easy to do). It was pulling about 10.8 amps 

It also seemed easy to clean after the maiden voyage last weekend.

Good luck!


----------



## Edak

wotafm said:


> i would be keen to see your pictures peteq. i test ran my unit on Monday so i just need to give it all a good wash and try it out
> 
> can anyone suggest a good easy brew for a new unit and a driver who has not done a A/G before.
> 
> cheers wotafm


Hey wotafm, 
I would recommend the Dr Smurto Golden Ale for your first AG.


----------



## PeteQ

I'm sure along with many other brewers DrS Golden Ale is my house ale. An absolutely fantastic beer


----------



## Dan Pratt

PeteQ said:


> Rob and Dan
> 
> Absolutely recommend that element. It took me about 5 minutes to bend into shape using the 9l malt pipe as a guide and my knee for the 90 degree bends. It does sit quite high in the pot, about 110mm from the base.
> 
> In my 19l pot it ramped up to temperatures nice and quick and the boil I had to turn down a bit (with the brauduino very easy to do). It was pulling about 10.8 amps
> 
> It also seemed easy to clean after the maiden voyage last weekend.
> 
> Good luck!



Thats great to hear, thanks Peteq. 

do you have any pictures of the element or for your braumieser build?

Dan


----------



## tynian

Pratty1 said:


> Thats great to hear, thanks Peteq.
> 
> do you have any pictures of the element or for your braumieser build?
> 
> Dan


Thanks Pete and Dan,

That is great info.

I have relatives that live not too far from Chullora so hopefully I will be able to get one picked up 

Rob.


----------



## PeteQ

> Thats great to hear, thanks Peteq.
> 
> do you have any pictures of the element or for your braumieser build?
> 
> Dan



I've uploaded a few photos I've taken to http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ 

I used my biab bag with a small hole in it to go over the threaded rod for last weekends brew to hold in all the grains and my hop sock over the top plate. Ghetto but did the job.

Excuse all the crap on the ground, I will update with more pics from brews over the weekend.

Cheers


----------



## tynian

PeteQ said:


> I've uploaded a few photos I've taken to http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
> 
> I used my biab bag with a small hole in it to go over the threaded rod for last weekends brew to hold in all the grains and my hop sock over the top plate. Ghetto but did the job.
> 
> Excuse all the crap on the ground, I will update with more pics from brews over the weekend.
> 
> Cheers


Looking great Pete,

I can't wait to get mine up and running, it's all so exciting.

Cheers
Rob


----------



## Dan Pratt

PeteQ said:


> I've uploaded a few photos I've taken to http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
> 
> I used my biab bag with a small hole in it to go over the threaded rod for last weekends brew to hold in all the grains and my hop sock over the top plate. Ghetto but did the job.
> 
> Excuse all the crap on the ground, I will update with more pics from brews over the weekend.
> 
> Cheers



I see you built the controller too, good work and well done. 

Thanks heaps for posting the link for the pictures, more inspiration


----------



## Edak

Great job Pete, do you have any photos of the base with the plumbing?


----------



## datamike

tynian said:


> Hi Pete,
> 
> Was this element bendable? If so, it seems like a great option for my element.
> 
> Cheers
> Rob



Anyone know of a US supplier of similar elements?

Thanks!


----------



## Dan Pratt

We are about to cut the handles of the malt pipe and attahced the lift lugs, to weld on or screw through? its easiest is to screw through but How do you guys get the base filter plate down the malt pipe when the lift bolts on the malt pipe get in the way?


----------



## PeteQ

The photos are quite embarrassing but I am going to clean up the wiring at some point. If the circuit you're using isn't RCD protected make sure you have ATLEAST 2 layers of insulation on all 240v wiring.
All seals are either silicone bakeware or silicone O rings. Temperature probe sealed with selleys knead it (apparently food grade?)


----------



## PeteQ

Pratty
The colander I'm using as the bottom filter plate fits easily over the 2 internal stainless bolts, unfortunately I'm no help.

datamike
try googling universal element, DIY element, bend it yourself element, bain marie element...


----------



## wotafm

Thanks for the Golden ale tip guys looks like a winner.

here are a few pic of my finished unit.




a bit of artistic pipework




element covers using a 50mm ss pipe




how it all looks underneath


----------



## Edak

Pratty1 said:


> We are about to cut the handles of the malt pipe and attahced the lift lugs, to weld on or screw through? its easiest is to screw through but How do you guys get the base filter plate down the malt pipe when the lift bolts on the malt pipe get in the way?


Hey Pratty, 

My filter plate goes in snugly but I put it in on an angle so it goes past the bolts. I also ground down the heads of the bolts so they aren't so large. Worked for me.




PeteQ said:


> The photos are quite embarrassing but I am going to clean up the wiring at some point. If the circuit you're using isn't RCD protected make sure you have ATLEAST 2 layers of insulation on all 240v wiring.
> All seals are either silicone bakeware or silicone O rings. Temperature probe sealed with selleys knead it (apparently food grade?)


Pete, 
Looks ok, as you say it's cosmetic. I would not brew on a circuit that wasn't RCD (safety switch) protected.




wotafm said:


> Thanks for the Golden ale tip guys looks like a winner.
> 
> here are a few pic of my finished unit.
> 
> a bit of artistic pipework
> 
> element covers using a 50mm ss pipe
> 
> how it all looks underneath


I love your work wotafm, great looking build. Just did a Nelson Sauvin Summer Ale today so the waiting game begins again. Downed a couple more of my Golden Ales and they are really a treat, even for a first brew.

I wish I had someone tasting my beers other than myself and a couple of friends who aren't homebrewing and don't really know what to look for. Personally my first AG was a success if you ask me.


----------



## Dan Pratt

wotafm said:


> Thanks for the Golden ale tip guys looks like a winner.
> 
> here are a few pic of my finished unit.
> 
> View attachment 57671
> 
> 
> a bit of artistic pipework
> 
> View attachment 57672
> 
> 
> element covers using a 50mm ss pipe
> 
> View attachment 57673
> 
> 
> how it all looks underneath
> 
> View attachment 57674



great update with the pictures Edak. keep them coming, video?? 

what is the flow rate on the pump your using? any reason why you changed it from the green pump>>>


----------



## PeteQ

wotafm said:


> Thanks for the Golden ale tip guys looks like a winner.
> 
> here are a few pic of my finished unit.



That is awesome! I wish I had access to a welder... and someone who could weld. Definitely take some photos when you brew with it, would really like to see it in action! 

I brewed again over the weekend and used a 2.5kg grain bill which bent my top filter plate, if i didn't have my biab bag over the main pot a bit of grain would have spewed out. Maybe not so much of an issue but I can't imagine it would be any good for the little brown pump.

Another problem I'm still having is the temps are 2-4 degrees out. Anybody have any problems with their temps?

Uploaded a few more photos with my braumiser in action http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


----------



## Edak

Pratty1 said:


> great update with the pictures Edak. keep them coming, video??
> 
> what is the flow rate on the pump your using? any reason why you changed it from the green pump>>>


Hey pratty, those were not my photos. My photos are at http://images.cobbersbrewery.com

I still use the green pump.


----------



## wotafm

PeteQ said:


> Another problem I'm still having is the temps are 2-4 degrees out. Anybody have any problems with their temps?



PeteQ Where are you checking you temps compared to you controllers probe?

if you are reading a low temp compared to your controller the probe is very close to your element this could be causing the difference


----------



## Edak

wotafm said:


> PeteQ Where are you checking you temps compared to you controllers probe?
> 
> if you are reading a low temp compared to your controller the probe is very close to your element this could be causing the difference



Surely the place of measurement would not describe a 4 degree offset, especially if there is reasonable flow past the element. That's a huge variation!


----------



## PeteQ

wotafm said:


> PeteQ Where are you checking you temps compared to you controllers probe?
> 
> if you are reading a low temp compared to your controller the probe is very close to your element this could be causing the difference



I'm checking the temps at the top of the malt pipe resting on top of the filter plate with my trusty old http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_in...roducts_id=8555 

The thermometer is measuring much higher than the brauduino is showing. I could deal with it but I'd prefer it to be spot on, maybe I might try another DS18B20 and see if that measures the same temps.

The flow just from the little brown pump is MUCH more than i expected. definitely enough flow around the probe which is quite close to the inlet.

Thanks for your help


----------



## Edak

Wow, that was unexpected. The temp at the top of the MP is higher than outside? I see why you are concerned.

If you are truely confident in your G&G thermometer, just adjust the DS temperature in software. Call it a calibration.
If the calibration is non-linear, chart it in excel, create a polynomial that best fits and use those factors to adjust the end value.

Follow this technical note that describes the process for a data acquisition system using excel, follow only until you get to step 3.2 I know it relates to thermocouples, but can be used for anything.


----------



## dmac80

Hi PeteQ,

Is your DS18b20 in a thermowell? Are you getting full heat transfer through to the sensor? Has the heat transfer paste run out?

It may be worth checking out, even if the probe is a pre manufactured one if they have heat transfer paste in there it doesn't like hot temps and being mounted upside down.

Cheers


----------



## wotafm

I did have a DS18b20 that read high after I hook it up backwards once. poor thing was never the same so I ended up ditching it


----------



## matho

I have gotten a headcold so I had to stay away from hospital today.

It's great to see so many single vessel breweries being made you guys have done a great job.

As for the DS18b20 temperature difference, it could be any of the things suggested or your trusty thermometer is out. What I have found is that my DS18B20 agrees with my lab thermometer all the way up to 80 deg c then it starts to read low until boil when it reads about 2 degs lower but in the specs it is only rated to be accurate to +-0.5 deg up to 80 deg. Pete you could change the sensor but my gut feeling is the new one would read the same, if you have been brewing with your old thermometer then just factor in the difference at mash temps and let the beer tell you which way you should go, repeatability is more important than the exact temperature in my book anyway.

cheers steve


----------



## PeteQ

matho said:


> I have gotten a headcold so I had to stay away from hospital today.
> 
> It's great to see so many single vessel breweries being made you guys have done a great job.
> 
> As for the DS18b20 temperature difference, it could be any of the things suggested or your trusty thermometer is out. What I have found is that my DS18B20 agrees with my lab thermometer all the way up to 80 deg c then it starts to read low until boil when it reads about 2 degs lower but in the specs it is only rated to be accurate to +-0.5 deg up to 80 deg. Pete you could change the sensor but my gut feeling is the new one would read the same, if you have been brewing with your old thermometer then just factor in the difference at mash temps and let the beer tell you which way you should go, repeatability is more important than the exact temperature in my book anyway.
> 
> cheers steve


 
Steve,
As a new parent myself I can't imagine what you're going through. I hope your daughter makes a speedy recovery.

If the new DS18B20 reads the same I will trust it and results will decide if is incorrect. 

Thanks very much for your help Steve and everyone else.

Cheers


----------



## Malted

Bonj,

which way should the pins go into the Bonjuino, as per A or B? Should they be 2 x 3 (A) or 3 x 2 (B )? 




I got in before you flashed them up with the code. I went for one of the 3 options you had posted to be able to connect to a PC. Where should the USB jobby connect to the Bonjuino?


----------



## bonj

Malted said:


> Bonj,
> 
> which way should the pins go into the Bonjuino, as per A or B? Should they be 2 x 3 (A) or 3 x 2 (B )?
> View attachment 57753
> 
> 
> I got in before you flashed them up with the code. I went for one of the 3 options you had posted to be able to connect to a PC. Where should the USB jobby connect to the Bonjuino?
> View attachment 57754


Hey mate, 

As for A and B arrangements, it really doesn't matter as they're not connected to each other. I go for A arrangement because it's less fiddly.
If your intention is to connect to a brauduino, then none of the highlighted pins need to be connected at all.

The USB jobby needs to connect to the 6 right angled pins on the bonjuino, so one of them needs to be changed to female headers.


----------



## Malted

Bonj said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> As for A and B arrangements, it really doesn't matter as they're not connected to each other. I go for A arrangement because it's less fiddly.
> If your intention is to connect to a brauduino, then none of the highlighted pins need to be connected at all.
> 
> The USB jobby needs to connect to the 6 right angled pins on the bonjuino, so one of them needs to be changed to female headers.



Thanks Bonj,
yes it is my intention to hook it to a Brauduino, that's why I posted in the Braumeister thread. Can you clarrify what "none of the highlighted pins need to be connected at all" means? I take this to mean that they are redundant when used against the Brauduino and thus do not need to be affixed to your board? The fellow I have soldering it up for me will be happy if this is the case. 

Gotchya.

Cheers Bonj.


----------



## bonj

Malted said:


> Thanks Bonj,
> yes it is my intention to hook it to a Brauduino, that's why I posted in the Braumeister thread. Can you clarrify what "none of the highlighted pins need to be connected at all" means? I take this to mean that they are redundant when used against the Brauduino and thus do not need to be affixed to your board? The fellow I have soldering it up for me will be happy if this is the case.
> 
> Gotchya.
> 
> Cheers Bonj.


Yes, that is correct. The highlighted pins are redundant when used against the Brauduino and thus do not need to be soldered on. He will probably not be happy that he will have to change one of those 6 pin headers to a female one to get the USB dongle and the bonjuino to interconnect, however.


----------



## real_beer

Bonj said:


> He will probably not be happy that he will have to change one of those 6 pin headers to a female one to get the USB dongle and the bonjuino to interconnect, however.


I'm going to get something like this & just plug it in when needed. You might even find some one pin connectors to raid in old junked computers.

6 pin MTE cable

cheers


----------



## Edak

real_beer said:


> I'm going to get something like this & just plug it in when needed. You might even find some one pin connectors to raid in old junked computers.
> 
> 6 pin MTE cable
> 
> cheers


Yeah that will work just fine


----------



## PeteQ

I've been playing around a bit more with this build and came up with





Pot in a pot extended malt pipe held together with bolts and wingnuts for easy cleaning





and stainless mesh over the bottom filter.

I brewed with it this morning, the extended MP worked perfectly BUT the bottom mesh filter didn't work all that well. A bit of grain was in the wort after sparging, no big deal so I kept going as normal. When ramping up to the boil the little brown pump stopped pumping (lower than 94C). I think maybe some grains got caught in it and it burnt out... After tests this afternoon shes definitely shit itself.

For now I might stick to my BIAB bag as that worked really well for the previous 2 brews, just another thing to clean.

Brew today was with 3kg grains, OG 1048 80% efficiency

Cheers


----------



## notung

PeteQ said:


> I've been playing around a bit more with this build and came up with
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pot in a pot extended malt pipe held together with bolts and wingnuts for easy cleaning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and stainless mesh over the bottom filter.
> 
> I brewed with it this morning, the extended MP worked perfectly BUT the bottom mesh filter didn't work all that well. A bit of grain was in the wort after sparging, no big deal so I kept going as normal. When ramping up to the boil the little brown pump stopped pumping (lower than 94C). I think maybe some grains got caught in it and it burnt out... After tests this afternoon shes definitely shit itself.
> 
> For now I might stick to my BIAB bag as that worked really well for the previous 2 brews, just another thing to clean.
> 
> Brew today was with 3kg grains, OG 1048 80% efficiency
> 
> Cheers



The extended malt pipe looks like a great idea, thanks for sharing that. 

Brown pump stories like yours are the reason why it's taken me so long to choose a pump for my build. Am thinking that I'd might has well spend a little more now for peace of mind. Green craftbrewer pumps look ok and cheaper than a march...


----------



## angus_grant

angus_grant said:


> Well according to Malted he paid $204 (inc shipping) for a 2000W element and I am getting a 2400W element, so imagine it will be slightly more expensive.
> 
> But your price is well below that. Hmm, what gives???



Well just to let everyone know, I got a local company (Helios in Springwood - www.helios.com.au) to bend up a 2400 watt heating element for me for a grand total of $120. Apparently they had just done the same thing for a beer system 2 weeks previously. Own up, who was it??? The one thing which is a bit irritating is that they couldn't bend up the element to enter the bottom of the pot and still get the element under my minimum height. So the elements exit the side of the pot. So I will now have a control box on the back of the system and a plastic box underneath holding the relays and wiring...

Some quick photos:



control box with offset holes to allow for the starting terminal under the coils and the finishing terminal above the coils.



heating element installed and leak test successful



control box during leak test. Need to grab some stainless screws for the cover (bling factor only)

One thing I am pleased about is that I can still separate the coils and get a cleaning cloth in there after a brew day. Will see how recirculating PBW goes though cause I am lazy. ha ha

I have since finished wiring up the control box and ran a boil test. Took about an hour to get up to a very gentle boil so some insulation is in order to increase the boil rate. Now all that is left is everything else. he he...

Now that I have the element installed I can do some BIABs whilst building the rest of the malt pipe and pump plumbing. Slowly making progress but it is a bit of a struggle with a 6 month old..


----------



## eamonnfoley

anyone know of a 2400W element that will suit a 1/2" BSP. Most I've seem suited to 1", or weldless. 

Reason being I have a spare port on my pot, so wouldnt mind going electric without having to drill it. Might contact your guy at Helios and see what he can do.


----------



## Tony

I dont like your chances of getting one that will screw into 1/2" BSP.


----------



## booargy

foles said:


> anyone know of a 2400W element that will suit a 1/2" BSP. Most I've seem suited to 1", or weldless.
> 
> Reason being I have a spare port on my pot, so wouldnt mind going electric without having to drill it. Might contact your guy at Helios and see what he can do.



Let us know what they are worth COMPACT SCREW-IN IMMERSION HEATERS


----------



## angus_grant

Steve: I was having a look at your first page to see how you handled fitting the ball valve and not interfering with the heating element. I noticed you used one of the skin fittings to drastically reduce the inside protrusion. A very nice solution. I assume you had to cut down the length of the threaded part of the fitting sticking out of the pot so the ball valve didn't stick out a ridiculous amount. Or at least mine would if I just put it straight on.

I see on quite a lot of the 3V systems they have hop blockers or pickup tubes to minimise sucking up the trub left over after the boil. Does not having either of these devices cause problems for you? I have been using a hop sock for all my extract brews and wonder whether that has affected the hop utilisation. It certainly leaves very minimal crap left over in the boil


----------



## matho

angus_grant said:


> Steve: I was having a look at your first page to see how you handled fitting the ball valve and not interfering with the heating element. I noticed you used one of the skin fittings to drastically reduce the inside protrusion. A very nice solution. I assume you had to cut down the length of the threaded part of the fitting sticking out of the pot so the ball valve didn't stick out a ridiculous amount. Or at least mine would if I just put it straight on.
> 
> I see on quite a lot of the 3V systems they have hop blockers or pickup tubes to minimise sucking up the trub left over after the boil. Does not having either of these devices cause problems for you? I have been using a hop sock for all my extract brews and wonder whether that has affected the hop utilisation. It certainly leaves very minimal crap left over in the boil



yeah mate I did cut down the thread and I also reduced the size of the flange on the inside so I could get it closer to the bottom of the pot. I use hop socks when brewing with pellets and that reduces the amount of trub at the end of the brew, I haven't found too much of a difference in bitterness using hop socks.

cheers steve


----------



## angus_grant

:icon_cheers: One more little piece of the puzzle solved. Solving puzzles is proving to be the easier part. Actually building it is the hard bit due to lack of spare time. he he.

I hope to knock up the ball valve assembly tonight then. Once that is fitted I can start doing some BIABs using my boil controller software (which I think it pretty cool stuff) for hop additions alarms. The boil controller software imports beer.xml files straight into a grid and has an overall count-down timer as well as individual count-down timers for each addition (hops, whirlfloc, spices, whatever is in the beermate recipe). It even highlights in red additions which have less than 10 minutes left. No double configuration for me!! B) 

And the software also controls the heating element via SSR's so it will then turn the element off when boil time is complete. At some point (possibly late 2014 - he he) I will automate a pump to start pumping water through immersion chiller to start the cooling process as well.


----------



## angus_grant

Even more progress. Wow, stuff is happening. I wired the element up and some test boils proved that I did need to work on insulation to actually achieve a boil. It would sit on around 98 degrees bubbling mildly. So off to BCF, $15 for a double camp mattress and another $15 for some bungee straps. 30 minutes with a texta, scissors, and a scalpel and voila:






So things are somewhat improved. The temp ramping is a lot quicker with 80 degrees achieved about 15 minutes faster than before with no insulation but still did not achieve a good rolling boil. Was slightly stronger than before though. I had my pot sitting on two silicon pads from the kitchen and when I shifted the pot, the wooden bench was quite warm. So I cut up some of the camp mat as a base insulation and that achieved a slightly stronger boil but still not a good rolling boil. Bench was still a bit warm so perhaps another layer of mat.

As soon as I put the lid on, bam good boil which is obviously not a solution. So I think I will have to go with floating a pie tin or something to cut down on the surface area to achieve a good boil. Edak has built a domed lid for his system with a hole in the top and drainage system to drain off the condensation which seems a very good solution so I will start looking out for stainless bowls.

What worries me is that this was only with 20L of water, not 28L of wort...

At least it is progress!!! B)


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> Even more progress. Wow, stuff is happening. I wired the element up and some test boils proved that I did need to work on insulation to actually achieve a boil. It would sit on around 98 degrees bubbling mildly. So off to BCF, $15 for a double camp mattress and another $15 for some bungee straps. 30 minutes with a texta, scissors, and a scalpel and voila:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So things are somewhat improved. The temp ramping is a lot quicker with 80 degrees achieved about 15 minutes faster than before with no insulation but still did not achieve a good rolling boil. Was slightly stronger than before though. I had my pot sitting on two silicon pads from the kitchen and when I shifted the pot, the wooden bench was quite warm. So I cut up some of the camp mat as a base insulation and that achieved a slightly stronger boil but still not a good rolling boil. Bench was still a bit warm so perhaps another layer of mat.
> 
> As soon as I put the lid on, bam good boil which is obviously not a solution. So I think I will have to go with floating a pie tin or something to cut down on the surface area to achieve a good boil. Edak has built a domed lid for his system with a hole in the top and drainage system to drain off the condensation which seems a very good solution so I will start looking out for stainless bowls.
> 
> What worries me is that this was only with 20L of water, not 28L of wort...
> 
> At least it is progress!!! B)



Looking good Angus!

Yeah I found that I needed the domed lid to get a really strong boil (the difference is amazing). No dome = not a good boil (it moves about and has some small bubbles). I have a 11%+ boil off rate with this configuration and end up with about 50-100ml coming from the drain pipe. I also boil about 27-28L and usually have 80min boils, which I could reduce.
I got my big bowl from a catering supplies place and it was about $15. The hose is that really solid reinforced stuff from Bunnings which I cut zig-zagged teeth into so surface tension wouldn't prevent it going into the drain.


----------



## angus_grant

yeh, it sits on 98.7 to 99.0 degrees and can't seem to kick that last little bit to get into the boiling area. Just lotsa bubbles coming off the element and a lot of convection. As soon as the lid goes on, bam starts boiling so it looks like the domed lid will be the next thing on the list.

Thanks for the tip on the hose. I might see if I can wrangle a ex-sheety mate to weld up something for me. 

It's great to be making progress. Our little fellow seems to be settling down for his night sleeps a lot better so that frees up spare time to work on projects.


----------



## angus_grant

Question for everyone: I know there are the Arduino shields available for Matho's kit. I have been using a breadboard to prototype my wiring. I am now ready to move this wiring onto a more permanent board and install it into my enclosure. I don't really think I want to use a PCB company as they cost around $30 and when all I really want to do is join up some ground, 5V connections and wire up a DS18B20 then a PCB board seems a bit of an overkill. And not really playing into the whole Miser thing...

So how about one of these boards from Jaycar as the final installation board. Or perhaps this board? Any other suggestions?


----------



## bonj

angus_grant said:


> Question for everyone: I know there are the Arduino shields available for Matho's kit. I have been using a breadboard to prototype my wiring. I am now ready to move this wiring onto a more permanent board and install it into my enclosure. I don't really think I want to use a PCB company as they cost around $30 and when all I really want to do is join up some ground, 5V connections and wire up a DS18B20 then a PCB board seems a bit of an overkill. And not really playing into the whole Miser thing...
> 
> So how about one of these boards from Jaycar as the final installation board. Or perhaps this board? Any other suggestions?


That looks fine. You want some sort of veroboard/perfboard.

Veroboard has strips of copper joining each hole in a row (like the second one you linked). They are easier to use because you don't need to bridge the pads for each hole. To cut the strip, use a drill bit in one of the holes.


----------



## angus_grant

B) :beer: 

Cheers Bonj. Off to Jaycar tonight then!! And sneaky tip about the drill bit.

Need to get my FermController software and hardware up and running to get a few batches done for Xmas drinks. My ferment Fridgemate got re-purposed to control our old air-con unit in the little fella's room. little bugger is already stealing my homebrew gear and he can't even crawl yet... he he


----------



## angus_grant

Yet another silly question. 

Below is the wiring diagram for my data acquisition module. You can see the 1.5K Ohm resistor. Am I able to insert the resistor into the screw terminals with the power and signal wires? Or does the circuit require the resistor wired up before the terminals? I would be able to get away with not getting any extra wiring boards if I can insert it directly into the screw terminal.


----------



## Zizzle

Yes you can put it in the screw terminals.

But the datasheet says 4.7K for the pullup, where did 1.5K come from?


----------



## angus_grant

Last night I thought it over and over and the resistor is just to limit flow between power and signal, so crossed my fingers and wired it up. Bingo, it all worked..

The DAQ board has temperature reading from the DS18B20 built in to the board firmware and all the board documentation and datasheets talks about 1.5k resistor. Perhaps they have built-in resistors on the board or something? No idea. The DS reads 0.3 degrees lower than my digital thermometre and reads a consistent temp. I never really thought about the DS18B20 data sheet stating a 4.7K resistor is required.

So I can only figure there are some resistors on the board or they are doing something on the board to allow dropping the required resistor down to 1.5k.


----------



## stux

Was looking at the new craftbrewer 100L kettles, and I think they look perfect for a single/double/triple batch BrauMeiser

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4769




The dimensions are apparently 460x600, which is just 20mm wider than a true BM50, and an extra 40mm in height + a domed lid. The extra height combined with trimming some of the wasted space should mean you can bump up to a 60L batch, and with a short malt pipe still be able to do a 20/23L batch, and regular doubles or super strong doubles.

The numbers just don't work out very well with my current 50x50 98L pot... and it seems like a waste of a very good pot when you don't really need the quality.

I've had a fiddle with the braumeister volume calculator...

View attachment Braumiser_Volume_Calculations_100L.xls


First two sheets are the large and small option. I'm not sure my understanding of the requirements is 100%, but basically, the CB pot seems to have a domed lid, which means the malt pipe can come right up to the rim of the pot, so I went with a 350x600 maltpipe for maximum batch sizes.

This means you can re-use a true BM seal, and it leaves 50+mm on either side of the MP for elements and plumbing.

I *think* the height excluding filters is the gap between the two filters... so I set that to height - 8... is this too little? The idea is that the wingnut and clamp down works can actually be above the rim of the pot, as there is a domed lid. And the BM uses 100mm gap at the bottom, but perhaps that can be trimmed to 6-8cm to get a bit more maximum capacity?

with a 2.8L/KG (worst case) 14.5KG of grain, which neatly gets right into the zone for a triple batch... I think. I'd prefer more capacity, but I figure, for triples you're aiming for quaffing beer in the 1.048-1.052 range, and I think that's about the right amount of grain, would depend on actual efficiency.

For doubles you can do no-sparge, and really push the OG if you want.

For a single, I'd use a small pipe, perhaps 30cm high? Not 100% sure about that, should work well up to about 6KG of grain, but I'm not sure about the volume of water required... is it too much? what sortof boil-off would you expect, Every extra cm of MP height requires more initial water...

Was thinking, perhaps its a good idea to either have an over-flow outlet half way up the MP, or perhaps a block of something inert to displace more water 

Any thoughts?


----------



## Zizzle

angus_grant said:


> Last night I thought it over and over and the resistor is just to limit flow between power and signal, so crossed my fingers and wired it up. Bingo, it all worked..
> 
> So I can only figure there are some resistors on the board or they are doing something on the board to allow dropping the required resistor down to 1.5k.



Rubbish. This resistor is between the 5V terminal and the data line. No other resistors in the circuit.

The resistor is a pull up resistor. The 1-wire devices operate the data line in a open-collector/ open-drain manner. That is they cannot pull the data line up to logic high. That is what the resistor is for.

This scheme is what allows the 1-wire bus to operate - multiple devices can exist on it and won't fight each other (i.e. one cannot be pulling the data line high while allow is pulling it low)

It means that when your 1-wire device is setting the data line to low, it has to sink the current though the resistor. Usually about 1mA with 4.7K - so you have about tripled it. Shouldn't be a problem but it's still a strange modification.


----------



## angus_grant

Well I am just going off the datasheet of the USB DAQ device. All their instructions and wiring diagrans talk about 1.5k resistor and it seems to be working when wired up.

The instructions do not mention running multiple temp probes on the same pin and there is no way to pass a device id in the com-port call, so maybe that is why they use a 1.5k resistor. ??


----------



## Malted

Stux said:


> Any thoughts?



Yes that does look like a good sized pot for what you are planning. 

I see no reason why you could not run the malt pipe to the top of the pot (providing the lid gives sufficient room). You never run it with the pot totally full so it would be fine. The wort just flows over the side of the malt pipe into the lower volume of wort between the two vessels so it would be all good.

50mm either side of the malt pipe is slightly more than a BM so should be fine. (~48mm either side on a 50L BM)

BM uses a 110mm gap from the base of the main vessel to the bottom of the bottom filter plate to allow for the centre element. This seems excessive but your gap will depend upon the element you source given that most have a large no bend zone near the ends of the elements. The expensive one I sourced will sit up only 30mm or so from the bottom of the pot whilst I have seen some that are 90mm or so. 

An overflow in a long malt pipe to allow smaller batches to be made with that MP may lead to channeling through the grain bed. You would need many holes/overflows and then they might be a bugger to seal when you want to do a full batch. Not saying the idea won't work but the reality is that it may be a lot more moving parts etc that would require cleaning. If you went that way, perhaps a malt pipe with a number of holes at a certain height and then slip a clamping band around it that has silicone sheet on it's inside so that one band can cover and seal all the holes for use in full batch mode? You would just slip a piece of SS tube over the centre rod, so that you can limit the height that the top filter plate rises up (i.e. keeping it below the ring of holes). So it would go vertically like this: top filter plate, SS tube over centre rod, MP hold down, wingnut. This way, _perhaps_ you could build one malt pipe that could do singles or doubles? 

A minimum of 10mm of liquid above the element (in the spreadsheet) might be cutting it a bit thin. I think the short malt pipe would still do a very large single batch because if i set the height above the element to 20mm, your minimum water volume jumps up to 31L. The shorter you make the MP, the wider it is relative to height (i.e. shallower grain bed which could negatively affect clarrity of wort). I would be inclined to position the centre element (if you have one) so that you could decrease the diameter of the short malt pipe to be able to decrease the total volume and also allow a good depth of grain bed. Who says a short malt pipe and big malt pipe can't have differing diameters if the centre element allows it? (downside is that you would then need two sets of filter plates and filters). 

Even with a 50L BM, the short MP produces a volume of wort that is essentially larger than a single batch (30L is kind of best for it). The 50L produces most effectively at 50L, the short malt pipe is a bit of a compromise. 

Pushing the OG is not as easy as with a 3V system. Sure you can do a double batch grainbill but your gravity is still limited by the fact that you have a minimum amount of water to be used. Mashing a double and boiling down to a single is what would be better for a high OG batch. Depending upon your elements, you'd risk scortching the wort (that is why low watt density elements are the element of choice). 

Edit: the high gap between the ellement and the bottom filter plate on the 50L BM could also be so as to not scortch the grain when the pump break kicks in. From what I have been able to eyeball, the centre element seems to be a higher watt density than the outer element.


----------



## stux

Thanks for your thoughts 

As you worked out the real question is bottom filter plate height and small malt pipe height/width. Really think its worth pursuing the same diameter to allow reusing filter plates and seals. 

Anothe idea I had re the pipe 'overflow' was to perhaps have the long malt pipe be an extension to the short malt pipe, sortof like a PVC pipe end joint. The trick would then be if fabrication is cheaper that way than getting two simple malt pipes. 

I think I'll need to model the process a bit better to work out optimum small pipe size. What efficiency do you get when using the small pipe?


----------



## wobbly

Hi 

Why are some (lots?) brewers so hung up about not allowing any of the boil off to return back into the kettle? ie. *"Must boil with lid off"* With some going to great lengths to design and fit a system to catch and return to the outside of the vessel any condensate and I'm not taking a cheap shot at anyone with this statement.

I went and had a look at the copper domes that Braumeister make for their units and the dome has a rubber locating seal that fits around the edge of the dome and a turned down lip (90 degree molding) locates the whole dome assembly onto/into the top of the Braumeister. Any condensate that forms on the inside of the dome will return back into the boiling unit.

The hole in the center of the dome is about 150mm dia and to allow a *"percentage of boil off' *to escape.

So what am I (and Braumeister) missing when it is stated in many places on this forum that you can't/shouldn't allow any condensate to return to the kettle 

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## dkaos

Wobbly I think this generally comes into play with Lager malts. Not having a sufficient boil off can result in DMS (dimethyl sulfide) which can cause a cooked cabbage smell and taste.


----------



## QldKev

When you look at most commercial breweries they all use the funnel shaped top.

Here's one 


mmm, do I really need to mod my brewery.. again :huh:


----------



## dmac80

Yep,

Visited a local microbrewery for a brew day recently and domed kettle lid is fixed directly to the kettle sides, with a central chimney to vent steam.

Their lager displays no signs of dms at all...

Cheers
Dan


----------



## Malted

IMO.
I don't think a domed lid should be used in isolation. As dmac has said the brewery he visited use a central chimney to vent steam. In a commercial brewery such as that in the Youtube clip posted by QldKev it would not be desirable to have the confined space full of steam, that is what it is about. Domed lid AND chimney, think of it as a rangehood if you like.

Given the high density population in Germany, I'd imagine not many of them would have a shed etc to brew in and thus the product has been designed mostly to cater to people who might be brewing in their kitchen or bathroom etc. Spiedel have built the Braumeister to be a good apartment brewers' weapon of choice where other systems would be too large. Would you want your apartment full of steam? I don't have a domed lid and chimney or any other structure to vent the steam away from the brew area and have issues with my shed being full of steam; particularly in cooler weather it condenses on the roof and drips all over the place and I have to be careful that I am not getting dust, cobwebs and nasties from the roof dripping back into the BM. 

I think some folks get hung up on the bling factor of having such a domed lid and forget the practical nature of it, that is it is meant to be used with a chimney to vent steam outside of the brewing area. I think you would also need an exhaust fan too or otherwise it is just going to act as a big condenser and eventually return everything to the pot. 

Some folks also claim that a domed lid reduces ramping times and that they get a better/quicker boil, IMO this is not what the domed lid is meant for. Insulate the main vessel if this is what you're after. 

Rather than just copying Spiedel for the sake of cloning it, understand what the components are meant to do and then decide if you need all of them and what other bits you may need. Are you wanting a domed lid for its function, or its bling factor?

Here's a chap that understands what such a device is used for and has built one himself (with a fan):





http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/brew-magic...647/index2.html


My 2 cents worth. If you disagree, and many will, that is fine and dandy.


----------



## angus_grant

Nice reply malted. I certainly wouldn't be adding a domed lid if I didn't have to. The 2400W element (I didn't want to go above 10A) I've installed only produces a very slight rolling boil of 30L or water and I've yet to test it out with wort. I purchased my pot before finding out about how important pot height vs diameter is with regards to boil strength. Placing the pot lid on results in a very strong boil, and even placing the lid 2/3rds across the pot results in a strong boil.

I have insulated the sides and bottom of my pot and this made a slight difference to the strength of the boil. I haven't really found any good text on whether the strength of the boil is important or not. Until I can get my experience up and do some experiments I only go on the general consensus on the forum here that a strong boil is better than a weak one.






So whilst I may not end up going with a domed lid, I will fabricate some device to cut down on the pots diameter to increase the boil strength


----------



## Malted

angus_grant said:


> only produces a very slight rolling boil of 30L or water and I've yet to test it out with wort.
> Placing the pot lid on results in a very strong boil (1), and even placing the lid 2/3rds across the pot results in a strong boil.
> 
> I have insulated the sides and bottom of my pot and this made a slight difference to the strength of the boil. I haven't really found any good text (2) on whether the strength of the boil is important or not. Until I can get my experience up and do some experiments I only go on the general consensus (3) on the forum here that a strong boil is better than a weak one.
> 
> So whilst I may not end up going with a domed lid, I will fabricate some device to cut down on the pots diameter to increase the boil strength


Perhaps off topic again, but it does relate to whether you might need a domed lid for your BrauClone. 

(1) A massive, high energy, molten lava boil may not be neccessary. A rolling boil is what you need but what is that? There's a good discussion of it here; ThirstyBoy describes it : http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=660185

(2) MHB posts a link to "The Function of Wort Boiling" - it's a good read. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=923464

(3) Some general consensus' are urban myths. Weak boil and strong boil are quite subjective terms but a rolling boil (also subjective) is probably not what you would call, boiling strong. TB also suggests why boiling too hard can be a bad thing (in the first link).


----------



## angus_grant

All good points again, and thanks for the links. Good reading. And I think the post from ThirstyBoy bears out my thoughts on needing to cover the pot somewhat to increase the strength of the boil.

The boil I get is VERY gentle bubbles which do very little to the surface of the water and there is very little convection current occurring. There is some dirt and crap in the pot which don't really circulate anywhere.

And I've no idea on my evaporation rate but I would guess it would be much higher than the 15% rate mentioned. Something I can directly test out and get results on.

I suppose my point about the general consensus was that enough people on the Internet have said it for it to appear plausible and worth something (2 cents?). Until I can find an authoritative source on the subject (or gain enough experience to form an opinion) all I have to go on is the general consensus. So time for me to start reading some more advanced brewing books.


----------



## lael

Stux said:


> Was looking at the new craftbrewer 100L kettles, and I think they look perfect for a single/double/triple batch BrauMeiser
> 
> http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4769
> 
> View attachment 58924
> 
> 
> The dimensions are apparently 460x600, which is just 20mm wider than a true BM50, and an extra 40mm in height + a domed lid. The extra height combined with trimming some of the wasted space should mean you can bump up to a 60L batch, and with a short malt pipe still be able to do a 20/23L batch, and regular doubles or super strong doubles.
> 
> The numbers just don't work out very well with my current 50x50 98L pot... and it seems like a waste of a very good pot when you don't really need the quality.
> 
> I've had a fiddle with the braumeister volume calculator...
> 
> View attachment 58923
> 
> 
> First two sheets are the large and small option. I'm not sure my understanding of the requirements is 100%, but basically, the CB pot seems to have a domed lid, which means the malt pipe can come right up to the rim of the pot, so I went with a 350x600 maltpipe for maximum batch sizes.
> 
> This means you can re-use a true BM seal, and it leaves 50+mm on either side of the MP for elements and plumbing.
> 
> Any thoughts?



I found a pot in chinatown for $70 - think it is a 70L pot roughly 45cmx45cm. The weld lines etc were noticeable. I was hoping to do a similar thing to what you are thinking stux - particularly doubles of high gravity. (Steve - you mentioned getting one in chinatown - do you know what size it roughly is / remember what brand it is - how is it still going?)

When playing around with the same calculator I noticed that in using a smaller malt pipe it was still asking for a large amount of water to prevent dry runs. Is it possible to start pre-boil with a larger amount of water and just boil more off to get to the target or would that mess with the taste / characteristics of the beer - assuming you boil down to your pre boil volume and then do a normal boil with hops etc? 

Some other questions - if welds are noticeable - is this more likely to lead to rusting / leaking that people have mentioned about other imported pots? 

What is the minimum distance around the malt pipe required for heating elements etc? 

Are people doing manual whirlpools or building it into the pumping flow? 

someone was thinking about (sorry - lost who and where in the pages and pages of thread) using ss ebay heating elements and bending them - anyone know if this went ahead and the results? 
what about using this: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271050111847?ss...984.m1439.l2649 as the internal element (inside mash pipe)

it sounds like 2400watt is the largest a single 10A household circuit can take - how do braumeister do theirs with two elements? 

its hard to tell from people's build photos - are heating elements ok with touching each other (as they go around the pot) or are they bent / kept separate in some other way? if so - how?

has anyone used a little brown pump for a large system / high gravity? worth trying or just skip to something larger?

it sounds like pots boil better when they are narrow and tall rather than same height / diameter - but it seems like most pots have square cross sections/ equal dimensions. How much difference does it make?

it seems like there have been differing reports on how effective a 2400w element has been for different people. Is there a difference in the heating efficiency / effectiveness a bendable element between brands or are they likely to all be roughly similar? 

ok - 55 pages of questions out  

love your help for any / all of them you can!


----------



## angus_grant

I'm not sure there is a minimum required space around elements. Certainly nothing was mentioned to me when purchasing my element. I actually left my 2 pots there and they bent up the element for me so I would assume they would have bent it up for minimum spacing requirements.

And once again, they made no mention of the element touching itself (snigger snigger). And the control box they gave me promotes the element touching itself given the spacing I could achieve between the electrodes entering back out of the pot.

I am fairly sure the BM 50L system (with the 2 elements) is a 15A system. I am fairly sure the BM 20L system only has one element and is 10A. Or it could be that the 50L has one single higher powered heating element?

With my 40cm * 40cm 50L pot, it achieves a very gently boil, barely enough to disturb the surface of the water. I have not actually tried boiling wort yet, so not really sure if it is harder to boil than straight water. Maybe I should knock out an extract to see if there is a difference between water and wort?

I have already added insulation and am now in the process of finding a stainless steel bowl to cut up as a hood. Have found one on eBay and I should receive it early next week. Will then copy Edak's drainage system for the condensation.


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> I'm not sure there is a minimum required space around elements. Certainly nothing was mentioned to me when purchasing my element. I actually left my 2 pots there and they bent up the element for me so I would assume they would have bent it up for minimum spacing requirements.
> 
> And once again, they made no mention of the element touching itself (snigger snigger). And the control box they gave me promotes the element touching itself given the spacing I could achieve between the electrodes entering back out of the pot.
> 
> I am fairly sure the BM 50L system (with the 2 elements) is a 15A system. I am fairly sure the BM 20L system only has one element and is 10A. Or it could be that the 50L has one single higher powered heating element?
> 
> With my 40cm * 40cm 50L pot, it achieves a very gently boil, barely enough to disturb the surface of the water. I have not actually tried boiling wort yet, so not really sure if it is harder to boil than straight water. Maybe I should knock out an extract to see if there is a difference between water and wort?
> 
> I have already added insulation and am now in the process of finding a stainless steel bowl to cut up as a hood. Have found one on eBay and I should receive it early next week. Will then copy Edak's drainage system for the condensation.



The drainage system was fairly simple to produce, just ensure that when you cut the hose that you pay attention to the curl/shape of the hose and that you cut the upper side/edge so it fits easier on the pot. Don't let the hose twist as you cut it because it won't stay on if you do!

My system is still going strong, going to be putting down an ESB this week, have done about 5-6 batches on it already with no problems (though I love to refine my code to add features). The next step, auto-hopper.


----------



## bigbanko

On my Clone I used a 50L pot and cut a 150mm diameter hole in the lid. With a 2400w element and 30L of wort this gives a very good even rolling boil. If I remove the lid I get a similar boil to what angus has explained.
The hole in the lid still lets out quite an amount of steam. I did an Oatmeal Stout today and lost approx 5L to the 75 min boil.

The little brown pump I got from Gryphon shit it's self just at the end of the mash (luckily). I thought it may have had a stray grain jam it, but checked it out and all was pretty clean so it appears to have failed electrically. Used it once on a trial with water and this was the first time with wort. i always new this may be the weak link so I have a Topsflow magnetic pump on hand as a replacement.

I also need a pickup tube inside as I left about 3L behind

Other than the pump all went really well and the clone worked a treat.


----------



## Malted

lael said:


> it sounds like 2400watt is the largest a single 10A household circuit can take - how do braumeister do theirs with two elements?
> 
> its hard to tell from people's build photos - are heating elements ok with touching each other (as they go around the pot) or are they bent / kept separate in some other way? if so - how?
> 
> has anyone used a little brown pump for a large system / high gravity? worth trying or just skip to something larger?
> 
> it seems like there have been differing reports on how effective a 2400w element has been for different people.


Yes. Long answer is Watts / Volts = Amps. 2400w / 240v = 10a. Yes 2400 watts is the maximum for a 10 amp circuit (there are other factors but lets just stay simple).
15 amp circuits are the next commonly installed in houses and sheds (eg a lot of kitchen stoves have a 15amp circuit). 3600 / 240 = 15. Thus on a 15amp circuit you could run 3600 watt appliances. You can get a sparky in to install a 15 amp circuit if you want one. Some folks bypass this by running multiple 2400watt elements powered from DIFFERENT circuits in their kettles (they use extension cords). Extension cords all over the place is potetnially a hazard and a PITA. 50L Braumeister needs a 15 amp circuit. 20L BM only requires a 10amp circuit. More detail in answer to 'angus_grant'.

Braumeisters touch themselves (snigger).

Yes they have, results vary. They seem to fail more than other pumps in this setup. 

2400w elements have variable results because different people try to boil different volumes in different types of pots under different conditions. The other factor is how long it takes to boil/heat.
Example with 2400 watts, 30L of water would take 42 minutes to come up to mash in temp of 68oC from 22oC. With 3600 watts, 30L of water would take 28 minutes to come up to 68oC from 22oC. 
Like wise, 60L of water with 2400w would take 68 minutes (from 22oC to 68oC) and 3600w would take 56 minutes. 
So 2400w of 30L has a ramp rate of 1.09oC/minute, 3600w of 30L = 1.64oC/minute.
Also 2400w of 60L = 0.67oC/minute and 3600w of 60L = 0.82oC/minute. 
For shits and giggles let's say we have two 2400w elements on different supply circuits in the kettle to heat 60L of water from 22oC to 68oC, this would take 48 minutes or 0.95oC/minute ramp rate. (These values from "Boil Time Calculator": http://www.phpdoc.info/brew/boilcalc.html and include 95% efficiency but with an uninsulated pot in a breeze it could be significantly lower and thus take much longer)
This is for water. Wort has a different density and heating energy requirements. FWIW a 50L Braumeister which runs TWO elements to a combined total of 3200 watts, in most situations has a heating ramp time of about 1oC/minute. Just from a time value, it looks to me like 2400w is ok for 30L (single batch unit) but you'd need 3600w or so for 60L (double batch unit). 

It is not just about the amount of watts but is also about the wattage density of the element. The Braumeister and many of the clones use low wattage density elements. A short element at 2400watts could more readily scortch wort than say a 2400w element 1.2m long that is bent to coil around inside of the pot. 2400w in 20cm versus 2400w in 1.2m. 



angus_grant said:


> And once again, they made no mention of the element touching itself (snigger snigger).
> 
> I am fairly sure the BM 50L system (with the 2 elements) is a 15A system. I am fairly sure the BM 20L system only has one element and is 10A. Or it could be that the 50L has one single higher powered heating element?


As i said above, mine touches itself (snigger).

Yes 50L BM has a center element under the malt pipe and an outer element around the outside of the malt pipe. The 50L is meant to be run on a 15amp circuit (3200w combined total watts of elements + pump + controller). A 20L BM only has one element around the outside of the malt pipe; it has an element of 2000 watts. 



bigbanko said:


> On my Clone I used a 50L pot and cut a 150mm diameter hole in the lid. With a 2400w element and 30L of wort this gives a very good even rolling boil. If I remove the lid I get a similar boil to what angus has explained.
> The hole in the lid still lets out quite an amount of steam. I did an Oatmeal Stout today and lost approx 5L to the 75 min boil.


The lid would increase the efficiency as there is not so much loss of energy outside of the pot. This chap (http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/0...for-efficiency/) found he got 16% efficieny with a pot of water on the stove with no lid but the same pot with a complete lid and a SMALLER burner he got 27% efficiency. 

You would seem to have 16% total evaporation with 3.99L/hr loss to evaporation. Factor in cooling loss, loss to trub etc and I think your losses are quite high, possibly too high. This would suggest to me that perhaps you are boiling too vigorously, i.e you are evaporating too much wort. 10-12% loss to evap seems to be about the norm. I get 10-12% evap with a rolling boil that appears to be just the wort turning over.



malted said:


> Hopefully this is thought food for y'all. My head hurts, maths numbers and I don't generally get along. :icon_vomit:


----------



## angus_grant

angus_grant said:


> I have already added insulation and am now in the process of finding a stainless steel bowl to cut up as a hood. Have found one on eBay and I should receive it early next week. Will then copy Edak's drainage system for the condensation.



A friend told me about a kitchen warehouse place (on the corner of Tooheys road and Evans Road in Moorooka in Brisbane). Went there and they had one remaining SS pot (although very thin) in the exact size I needed. And for the princely sum of $15 including 15% discount).

10 minutes with the dremel and voila: spanky new hood for my brau-clone





I was getting some bits and pieces from CraftBrewer and took a video in of the boil. Ross had a look and said it was fine. He also mentioned that the hood was allowing enough steam out to not worry about DMS (it is actually about the same dimensions as the BM hood) so at this point, I will not be worrying about drainage for the hood. Simplifies things somewhat although I will have to work out a "condensation return system" as the pot allows dripping down the outside of the pot. This will be easier than a drainage system though. Done...

Also drilled hole in pot for one of the stainless skin fittings and fitted brown pump and 3-piece ball valve and then cam-lock fittings. I may look at doing a recirc BIAB run for the first run, but my initial thinking it to keep it as simple as possible so probably just normal BIAB. Will need tweak some changes for my PID temp control processes (running ferment fridge at the moment) to control the mashing process before I can do the BIAB though.

Progress is finally being made....


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> A friend told me about a kitchen warehouse place (on the corner of Tooheys road and Evans Road in Moorooka in Brisbane). Went there and they had one remaining SS pot (although very thin) in the exact size I needed. And for the princely sum of $15 including 15% discount).
> 
> 10 minutes with the dremel and voila: spanky new hood for my brau-clone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was getting some bits and pieces from CraftBrewer and took a video in of the boil. Ross had a look and said it was fine. He also mentioned that the hood was allowing enough steam out to not worry about DMS (it is actually about the same dimensions as the BM hood) so at this point, I will not be worrying about drainage for the hood. Simplifies things somewhat although I will have to work out a "condensation return system" as the pot allows dripping down the outside of the pot. This will be easier than a drainage system though. Done...
> 
> Also drilled hole for one of the stainless skin fittings and fitted brown pump and 3-piece ball valve and then cam-lock fittings. I may look at doing a recirc BIAB run for the first run, but my initial thinking it to keep pit as simple as possible so probably just normal BIAB. Will need tweak some changes for my PID temp control processes (running ferment fridge at the moment) to control the mashing process before I can do the BIAB though.
> 
> Progress is finally being made....




Good one angus, I probably did go over the top with my drainage system (which lets face it is just a piece of hose with a few cuts in it). It looks like the same type of pot as mine, terribly thin and makes a good 'gong' when it bangs on the ground/table/whatever. I have no DMS worries considering that my boil off rate is so high already (11% or so) with the lid on.

I LOVE YOUR PHOTO, nice to see you waving to the camera  

Keep us updated on your build. The biggest shame for me is that I haven't been able to actually show off my system to anyone who brews other than on the forum, but I am working on it.


----------



## angus_grant

was very "ringy" and "vibraty" when cutting it up. Very thin. Probably worth about $10. ha ha

I was wondering if anyone would pick up on me waving....  

I have a few friends that homebrew but they are all kit+kilo guys. I did go to BABBs a few times but I just didn't have the spare time with our young fellow at home. Sounds silly with it being one night a month, but it was more the fact that I did not have any homebrew to take with me, and I had more valuable things to do if I was going to take a personal night. This may change in the future though. I did enjoy going to those nights and it would be good to make some AG friends to leach advice from.


----------



## stux

lael said:


> I found a pot in chinatown for $70 - think it is a 70L pot roughly 45cmx45cm. The weld lines etc were noticeable. I was hoping to do a similar thing to what you are thinking stux - particularly doubles of high gravity. (Steve - you mentioned getting one in chinatown - do you know what size it roughly is / remember what brand it is - how is it still going?)



Taller rather than wider is better... says the owner of a square 98L and 50L pot 




> When playing around with the same calculator I noticed that in using a smaller malt pipe it was still asking for a large amount of water to prevent dry runs. Is it possible to start pre-boil with a larger amount of water and just boil more off to get to the target or would that mess with the taste / characteristics of the beer - assuming you boil down to your pre boil volume and then do a normal boil with hops etc?



Extra boiling will add extra browning reactions (mailard) and extra caramellyness... sometimes desireable, but not always... and extra time. I would not design a syste to require it!



> Some other questions - if welds are noticeable - is this more likely to lead to rusting / leaking that people have mentioned about other imported pots?
> 
> What is the minimum distance around the malt pipe required for heating elements etc?
> 
> Are people doing manual whirlpools or building it into the pumping flow?
> 
> someone was thinking about (sorry - lost who and where in the pages and pages of thread) using ss ebay heating elements and bending them - anyone know if this went ahead and the results?
> what about using this: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271050111847?ss...984.m1439.l2649 as the internal element (inside mash pipe)
> 
> it sounds like 2400watt is the largest a single 10A household circuit can take - how do braumeister do theirs with two elements?



SWMBO has given provisional approval to install a 3 phase outlet while we're doing our rennovations (already got 3 phase in the box and to an a/c), so I'm actually thinking of going 3 phase for the boil kettle... if its not excessive... i dunno. will think about it more later 

Going to have to get a 25A circuit installed for a UPS, and have done so in the past, so i know how expensive something more than 15A is! But if 15A is needed for 50L pots... then I imagine 30A is needed for a 100L pot... 3 phases at 10A sounds cheaper to me... but would mean 3 elements?

The 100L BM is a long term project... need to finish the 100L HERMS first 



> its hard to tell from people's build photos - are heating elements ok with touching each other (as they go around the pot) or are they bent / kept separate in some other way? if so - how?
> 
> has anyone used a little brown pump for a large system / high gravity? worth trying or just skip to something larger?
> 
> it sounds like pots boil better when they are narrow and tall rather than same height / diameter - but it seems like most pots have square cross sections/ equal dimensions. How much difference does it make?
> 
> it seems like there have been differing reports on how effective a 2400w element has been for different people. Is there a difference in the heating efficiency / effectiveness a bendable element between brands or are they likely to all be roughly similar?
> 
> ok - 55 pages of questions out
> 
> love your help for any / all of them you can!


----------



## lael

Malted - thanks for your excellent answer! It is very helpful! I'm trying to figure out if it is worth the hassle of building a larger machine. It seems hard to find large pots that are tall and narrow for cheap for thermal efficiency (and for 2 same diameter but different capacity malt pipes), and the extra element /power circuit required seems to add up costs and complexity. Any comment on how often you use your 20L malt pipe vs doing a 50L batch?


----------



## lael

Stux said:


> Taller rather than wider is better... says the owner of a square 98L and 50L pot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extra boiling will add extra browning reactions (mailard) and extra caramellyness... sometimes desireable, but not always... and extra time. I would not design a syste to require it!
> 
> 
> 
> SWMBO has given provisional approval to install a 3 phase outlet while we're doing our rennovations (already got 3 phase in the box and to an a/c), so I'm actually thinking of going 3 phase for the boil kettle... if its not excessive... i dunno. will think about it more later
> 
> Going to have to get a 25A circuit installed for a UPS, and have done so in the past, so i know how expensive something more than 15A is! But if 15A is needed for 50L pots... then I imagine 30A is needed for a 100L pot... 3 phases at 10A sounds cheaper to me... but would mean 3 elements?
> 
> The 100L BM is a long term project... need to finish the 100L HERMS first



taller is wider - lol, yeap... I think for the price difference I will prob go for a kettle lid, unless I can source similarly inexpensive, more appropriately shaped pots. The square ones I've found for about a dollar a litre capacity. I think craftbrewer ones are much nicer, but about double. 


thanks stux! that's helpful - not being an AG brewer yet - what is the normal 'headspace' on a 20L and 40L brew - I think from reading posts etc it seems normal for about a 10-15% boil off? Does that sound about right? - so if making a 20L system I would be looking at starting pre-boil with about 23L? How does sparge water factor in to this amount?


----------



## lael

I think what I am really struggling with may be a limitation of a 1V recirculating system? I want to do a big beer - Delirium Tremens is one of my faves - so I would like to be able to make it in this. It takes a 5.5kg grain bill, then later (no problem) a kilo or so of candi syrup.

I've attached my volume calculations to get some feedback on as I'm not sure what is / isn't reasonable and possible to be aiming for  

View attachment Lael__s_Braumiser_Volume_Calculations.xls


----------



## stux

lael said:


> I think what I am really struggling with may be a limitation of a 1V recirculating system? I want to do a big beer - Delirium Tremens is one of my faves - so I would like to be able to make it in this. It takes a 5.5kg grain bill, then later (no problem) a kilo or so of candi syrup.
> 
> I've attached my volume calculations to get some feedback on as I'm not sure what is / isn't reasonable and possible to be aiming for



Haven't looked at your sheet yet (iPhone)

But when making big beers it is common to boil longer, produce less and top up with extract and/or sugar (the Belgians do it)

Thing to do is work out how much beer you want with the low end gravity and how much with a high end (but not extreme) and design to cover that. 

My low/high is pretty much 1.035 to 1.060, where I always want 60L in fermenter. Then I'd run the numbers and work out how many L I could do at 1.080 etc and see if I was happy with that as well

You see, who really wants 60L of the same belgian quadruppel


----------



## bigbanko

angus_grant said:


> Also drilled hole in pot for one of the stainless skin fittings and fitted brown pump and 3-piece ball valve and then cam-lock fittings.
> Progress is finally being made....



The little brown pump will be the weak link. Ask me how I know?

Mine didn't last the first brew session.


----------



## angus_grant

yeh, the brown pump is for prototyping my design. I don't particularly expect it to last that long. I do have two of them, but will be upgrading to a proper pump at some point.

Will be using it to get the water moving to stabilise the temp to test my PID element control code.


----------



## lael

ok - so brown pump sounds like it is capable, but likely to fail? 

this one: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/MP..._672124722.html looks like the other one people are going for. Any comments on reliability / ability to handle hot wort over time? PeteQ did I see a post elsewhere on the forums that you have one?


----------



## Edak

lael said:


> ok - so brown pump sounds like it is capable, but likely to fail?
> 
> this one: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/MP..._672124722.html looks like the other one people are going for. Any comments on reliability / ability to handle hot wort over time? PeteQ did I see a post elsewhere on the forums that you have one?



Hi lael, 
that pump looks similar to many of ours but is inferior. The pump is use is from keg king, it has a metal body painted green and they are about $150. The biggest problem with the kk pump is that it has barb fittings so it's not directly plumbed.


----------



## QldKev

lael said:


> ok - so brown pump sounds like it is capable, but likely to fail?
> 
> this one: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/MP..._672124722.html looks like the other one people are going for. Any comments on reliability / ability to handle hot wort over time? PeteQ did I see a post elsewhere on the forums that you have one?






Edak said:


> Hi lael,
> that pump looks similar to many of ours but is inferior. The pump is use is from keg king, it has a metal body painted green and they are about $150. The biggest problem with the kk pump is that it has barb fittings so it's not directly plumbed.




Why is it inferior? The Kaixin pump is also a metal body.

QldKev


----------



## Edak

QldKev said:


> Why is it inferior? The Kaixin pump is also a metal body.
> 
> QldKev



My apologies, I thought I had read that they had a plastic body on a bulk buy post... Are they also food grade?


----------



## Malted

lael said:


> I think what I am really struggling with may be a limitation of a 1V recirculating system? I want to do a big beer - Delirium Tremens is one of my faves - so I would like to be able to make it in this. It takes a 5.5kg grain bill, then later (no problem) a kilo or so of candi syrup.
> 
> I've attached my volume calculations to get some feedback on as I'm not sure what is / isn't reasonable and possible to be aiming for


It is obvious that you are doing extensive research and I applaud that. I am somewhat cautious however since you have not brewed AG before. A lot of folks start with BIAB and get their heads around the brewing processes and some (but not all) then move onto a 3V system. I do not know many folks who keep the same 3V system that they start with, generally they tinker with it and improve it over time as they become more accustomed to the brewing process and what equipment suits them. Very few people start out by building an awesome brew rig straight up. All I am saying is that a good understanding of the AG brewing process can help you build a machine to suit your needs. 

So I think you should ask yourself, if you have not brewed AG before, why do you want a 1V system? The ability to hit target temps bang on without fuss, good repeatability of brews etc might well be issues that you have not yet diced with and could well be issues that should not worry you at this stage? If it is about you living in an apartment and thus have limited space, BIAB is a much easier AG starting point. I am not trying to talk you out of it, it seems to me that you are capable of pulling it off. Edit: I should add, because you are asking good questions. 

Yes you are correct, 1 V systems do have gravity limitations - there is only so much grain you can put in them and a minimum volume of liquid to add. High grist to liquor ratios (for high gravity worts) are easier with a 3V system because they don't have a wort recirculation pump. You can however do high gravity brewing in a 1V system but most often it relies on lowering the final volume by boiling for a long time to concentrate the wort or by the use of adjuncts.

So 5kg of grain will be ok instead of 5.5kg, if you are willing to drop your output volume. 

This is also where a good knowledge of brewing helps. High gravity brewing will drop your efficiency, this is not unique to 1V systems. Ordinarily I would get 80-85% efficiency for a 'normal' batch in my Braumeister (i.e. mid range gravity of say 1.035-1.060) any higher than that and I have to start lowering my efficiency values for the recipe formulation. For instance I tried an AG (no adjuncts) wort aiming for 1.100 and set my efficiency to 65%, in reality I think it was more likely 45-50% (it was a horror brew day and all went to shit). Efficiency values are important because they help you calculate how much grain you are going to need to get the required gravity for a particular volume of wort. Without knowing any details of your intended brew, with a lower efficiency due to high gravity brewing, you might well require 6 or 6.5kg of grain to achieve the gravity you are aiming for at that volume. Therefore with only 5kg of available grain space, you would need to accept a much lower output volume to achieve the desired gravity. This is most easily achieved through a very long boil. However, very long boils can lead to scorching the wort, particularly if you don't have a low watt density element. Burnt flavours through the wort are not very nice. 

If you do go down the 1V system path, leave the Delirium tremens for much later on, do some normal brewing first. Get your head around AG brewing, get your head around brewing on the 1V system and only then start pushing the boundaries. You'll have much less stress and greater success. 

So a word on your spreadsheet. Let's say the large single worksheet for instance. It has a pot volume of 71.5L and a minimum water volume of 34.8L (if max grain bill is used). How much sparge water would you use? You know you still need to sparge a 1V system yeah? Braumeisters and the clones are not full volume machines like BIAB folks can be. Say you want a 30L bottling volume, you expect 10% evap, 4% cooling loss, 3L loss to trub in the kettle and 3L loss to trub in the fermenter. In this case you would want 40.2L in the BIAB kettle to allow for these losses and you would add more grain (with a lower efficiency value) to allow for not sparging (although a lot of BIAB brewers do sparge). In the sparging case of 30L output you'd need to sparge with 5-6L or more. BIAB is a bit more flexible (and perhaps easier) because you can just add more water or more grain as required; it is not that simple with a BrauClone. 

The brauClone process is like this: you don't mash at full volume, you need to add water to reach full volume, if you add water it might as well be a sparge as you will gain sugars from it (otherwise you are leaving sugars behind and are dropping your total efficiency) and thus will either need more grain or lower your output volume, you can't just add more grain as space is limited. 

It would not be unusual for me to sparge with 15-20L on a 50L batch to reach the desired volume and gravity for a upper-mid gravity brew. In this case it would be desirable for me to have a hot water urn to hold sufficient hot liquor for sparging - it then becomes a 2V system...

Edit #2: I should add I am not a Braumeister, BrauClone or brewing expert - I am just a havachat and write more than some folks.


----------



## Malted

lael said:


> Malted - thanks for your excellent answer! It is very helpful! I'm trying to figure out if it is worth the hassle of building a larger machine. It seems hard to find large pots that are tall and narrow for cheap for thermal efficiency (and for 2 same diameter but different capacity malt pipes), and the extra element /power circuit required seems to add up costs and complexity. Any comment on how often you use your 20L malt pipe vs doing a 50L batch?



Yes bigger pots are dearer and associated costs are more for a bigger system; if it doesn't work out you have wasted a lot more money. Most folks who are building bigger systems are seasoned brewers. If you want to start you AG brewing on a 1V system, my advice is not to go too big too soon. Build a single batch system and see how that works for you, upgrade to a larger volume later. The beauty of this is that you will be able to reuse the controller and most of the parts from the small single system. 

I use my 20L malt pipe (which is more like a 30L batch actually) more often that I use the full 50L malt pipe. Why? Because it is so easy to brew, I can brew more often* for a greater variety of beers. It takes me some time to drink a 19L keg of beer. 

*If I get the time (what follows is somewhat contradictory to the above statement). 
I generally only have one keg in my kegerator (much to my disgust) and sometimes have periods in which it has run out and the replacement is not ready or not yet brewed. I should no chill more often and start collecting some so that I can have a few differing worts on hand to brew out when I have the opportunity. I have not settled on a 'house ale' or such, if I had then I could brew a double batch of it and when I start on or am someway through the second keg, I could brew again and not run out of beer. I can only fit two kegs in my kegerator too which is a problem. Enough to say, it is a balancing act for me between brewing enough to keep me in beer vs trying different recipes more often. Personally I like the variety so will probably need to brew more often, start stock pilling some no chilled worts and get a bigger kegerator.


----------



## lael

Edak said:


> My apologies, I thought I had read that they had a plastic body on a bulk buy post... Are they also food grade?



supposedly - up to 120C continuous working temp. I've asked what they are made out of - from other posts is seems that 'real' high temp pumps are polysulfone, whereas medium temp (80deg working) are some other material I can't remember off the top of my head - longer and starts with poly 

I think PeteQ has one - I've asked him about it and will see what he says. the pump looks awfully similar to the one strapped to the bottom of your system... i wouldn't be surprised if they are the same, but appearances can be deceiving.


----------



## lael

> It is obvious that you are doing extensive research and I applaud that.



thx!  trying to do it once and do it right I suppose. I've been looking at a lot of rigs - I think the 1V system suits for a few reasons - automation - reduces time, increases incentive to brew, allows for repeatability and consistency that isn't possible in a manual system. Cleaning and sanitising is simplified, the space required to store equipment is reduced, and from what I've read a lot of people build a 3v system, and then want to reduce down to the braumeister. I'm pretty much sold on the benefits and that I will want it later - so don't really want to buy and build a system that I will just get rid of later. I've done the sums as extensively as I can on a system build complete with sources and it looks like around $1k for a 20L system and around $1300 for a 50L (without the what is seeming necessary appx $300 20A power outlet/s - my sparky says 20A is pretty much same cost as 15A). It's certainly not cheap, but does look like it might be less expensive long term  



> Yes you are correct, 1 V systems do have gravity limitations - there is only so much grain you can put in them and a minimum volume of liquid to add. High grist to liquor ratios (for high gravity worts) are easier with a 3V system because they don't have a wort recirculation pump. You can however do high gravity brewing in a 1V system but most often it relies on lowering the final volume by boiling for a long time to concentrate the wort or by the use of adjuncts.
> 
> So 5kg of grain will be ok instead of 5.5kg, if you are willing to drop your output volume.
> 
> This is also where a good knowledge of brewing helps. High gravity brewing will drop your efficiency, this is not unique to 1V systems. Ordinarily I would get 80-85% efficiency for a 'normal' batch in my Braumeister (i.e. mid range gravity of say 1.035-1.060) any higher than that and I have to start lowering my efficiency values for the recipe formulation. For instance I tried an AG (no adjuncts) wort aiming for 1.100 and set my efficiency to 65%, in reality I think it was more likely 45-50% (it was a horror brew day and all went to shit). Efficiency values are important because they help you calculate how much grain you are going to need to get the required gravity for a particular volume of wort. Without knowing any details of your intended brew, with a lower efficiency due to high gravity brewing, you might well require 6 or 6.5kg of grain to achieve the gravity you are aiming for at that volume. Therefore with only 5kg of available grain space, you would need to accept a much lower output volume to achieve the desired gravity. This is most easily achieved through a very long boil. However, very long boils can lead to scorching the wort, particularly if you don't have a low watt density element. Burnt flavours through the wort are not very nice.
> 
> If you do go down the 1V system path, leave the Delirium tremens for much later on, do some normal brewing first. Get your head around AG brewing, get your head around brewing on the 1V system and only then start pushing the boundaries. You'll have much less stress and greater success.



ok - this is making more sense - thanks! your last post where you mentioned that it would be possible to do a higher volume with lower output was an epiphany for me. I hadn't thought beyond 'normal' batch sizes until then. Really the only restriction then is the minimum water levels required vs amount of grain you can fit in the malt pipe. I've done some partial mashes, but I guess there is a lot more to learn about all grain - I'll read through those sections of the books I've got. 



> So a word on your spreadsheet. Let's say the large single worksheet for instance. It has a pot volume of 71.5L and a minimum water volume of 34.8L (if max grain bill is used). How much sparge water would you use? You know you still need to sparge a 1V system yeah? Braumeisters and the clones are not full volume machines like BIAB folks can be.



yeah - I understand you need to sparge and if you don't sparge you reduce efficiency. I didn't realise BIAB could be 'full volume' does this mean running the full pre-boil volume in mashing?



> Say you want a 30L bottling volume, you expect 10% evap, 4% cooling loss, 3L loss to trub in the kettle and 3L loss to trub in the fermenter. In this case you would want 40.2L in the BIAB kettle to allow for these losses and you would add more grain (with a lower efficiency value) to allow for not sparging (although a lot of BIAB brewers do sparge). In the sparging case of 30L output you'd need to sparge with 5-6L or more. BIAB is a bit more flexible (and perhaps easier) because you can just add more water or more grain as required; it is not that simple with a BrauClone.
> 
> The brauClone process is like this: you don't mash at full volume, you need to add water to reach full volume, if you add water it might as well be a sparge as you will gain sugars from it (otherwise you are leaving sugars behind and are dropping your total efficiency) and thus will either need more grain or lower your output volume, you can't just add more grain as space is limited.
> 
> It would not be unusual for me to sparge with 15-20L on a 50L batch to reach the desired volume and gravity for a upper-mid gravity brew. In this case it would be desirable for me to have a hot water urn to hold sufficient hot liquor for sparging - it then becomes a 2V system...
> 
> Edit #2: I should add I am not a Braumeister, BrauClone or brewing expert - I am just a havachat and write more than some folks.



How do you determine how much sparge water to add into a batch? as far as I can tell an urn or similar (i guess a kettle would work for smaller batches) seems necessary/desirable (rinsing, cleaning, sparging etc?) unless you are no-sparging? 

I guess with the large single - the question I was trying to figure out - would it actually be possible to run a smaller batch through it - eg: 'standard' 5gall / 19L?

eg: DR Smurto's golden ale is 4.5kg grain bill single batch - but... this means running a larger amount of fluid to compensate for the lower fluid displacement by more grain, pushing the total water volume to 37 litres - which seems way too large for a single batch? (allowing 6L loss to trub = 31L, *.85 evap + cooling loss = 26L) [is that how I calculate it? ]. So assuming more boil = bad, then this pot sizing doesn't work...? 

buut... if I was to buy another same size pot and cut it down to 25cm high, the numbers look better - min water volume of 26L for max grain bill of 5.2kg. That might work. 

Either way - I'm guessing bringing the 50L required for a 40L batch to the boil isn't going to happen with a 2400w element. Hmmm - go ghetto and bung in an immersion heater? lol


----------



## stux

lael said:


> eg: DR Smurto's golden ale is 4.5kg grain bill single batch - but... this means running a larger amount of fluid to compensate for the lower fluid displacement by more grain, pushing the total water volume to 37 litres - which seems way too large for a single batch? (allowing 6L loss to trub = 31L, *.85 evap + cooling loss = 26L) [is that how I calculate it? ]. So assuming more boil = bad, then this pot sizing doesn't work...?



Are you including the loss to grain absorption?

Not sure on the exact numbers in this scenario


----------



## lael

Stux said:


> Are you including the loss to grain absorption?
> 
> Not sure on the exact numbers in this scenario



hi stux, 

yeah, the numbers are based on the spreadsheet i posted a few posts back, and then the loss figures (boil, cooling, trub) are based on what malted suggested above.


----------



## Edak

lael said:


> thx!  trying to do it once and do it right I suppose. I've been looking at a lot of rigs - I think the 1V system suits for a few reasons - automation - reduces time, increases incentive to brew, allows for repeatability and consistency that isn't possible in a manual system. Cleaning and sanitising is simplified, the space required to store equipment is reduced, and from what I've read a lot of people build a 3v system, and then want to reduce down to the braumeister. I'm pretty much sold on the benefits and that I will want it later - so don't really want to buy and build a system that I will just get rid of later. I've done the sums as extensively as I can on a system build complete with sources and it looks like around $1k for a 20L system and around $1300 for a 50L (without the what is seeming necessary appx $300 20A power outlet/s - my sparky says 20A is pretty much same cost as 15A). It's certainly not cheap, but does look like it might be less expensive long term
> 
> 
> 
> ok - this is making more sense - thanks! your last post where you mentioned that it would be possible to do a higher volume with lower output was an epiphany for me. I hadn't thought beyond 'normal' batch sizes until then. Really the only restriction then is the minimum water levels required vs amount of grain you can fit in the malt pipe. I've done some partial mashes, but I guess there is a lot more to learn about all grain - I'll read through those sections of the books I've got.
> 
> 
> 
> yeah - I understand you need to sparge and if you don't sparge you reduce efficiency. I didn't realise BIAB could be 'full volume' does this mean running the full pre-boil volume in mashing?
> 
> 
> 
> How do you determine how much sparge water to add into a batch? as far as I can tell an urn or similar (i guess a kettle would work for smaller batches) seems necessary/desirable (rinsing, cleaning, sparging etc?) unless you are no-sparging?
> 
> I guess with the large single - the question I was trying to figure out - would it actually be possible to run a smaller batch through it - eg: 'standard' 5gall / 19L?
> 
> eg: DR Smurto's golden ale is 4.5kg grain bill single batch - but... this means running a larger amount of fluid to compensate for the lower fluid displacement by more grain, pushing the total water volume to 37 litres - which seems way too large for a single batch? (allowing 6L loss to trub = 31L, *.85 evap + cooling loss = 26L) [is that how I calculate it? ]. So assuming more boil = bad, then this pot sizing doesn't work...?
> 
> buut... if I was to buy another same size pot and cut it down to 25cm high, the numbers look better - min water volume of 26L for max grain bill of 5.2kg. That might work.
> 
> Either way - I'm guessing bringing the 50L required for a 40L batch to the boil isn't going to happen with a 2400w element. Hmmm - go ghetto and bung in an immersion heater? lol



your calculation looks dodgy somehow. Using my system for example, I need a minimum of 23 litres when the maltpipe is installed including the grain volume. I start my system every time with 23 litres, add the grain, which adds another 3L volume for a total of approx 26 litres. 

You need to calculate backwards for volumes for sparge water though, so if you want 21L into fermenter, add the trub loss (3L), expand the water (divide by 0.96), add evaporation (divide by 0.85 for a 10% system at 90 min boil),you should be left with a number like 29.5L, this is the pre boil volume. Now, as mentioned earlier I start with a volume of 26, minus the grain absorption (about 1L/kg) and sparge with the difference to get to the pre boil volume. 

BeerSmith makes this easy as it does it all for you, but you see that you never need more than 30L in there when doing basic recipes like DSGA, which was my first recipe to brew on my BM. .


----------



## stux

Edak said:


> your calculation looks dodgy somehow. Using my system for example, I need a minimum of 23 litres when the maltpipe is installed including the grain volume. I start my system every time with 23 litres, add the grain, which adds another 3L volume for a total of approx 26 litres.
> 
> You need to calculate backwards for volumes for sparge water though, so if you want 21L into fermenter, add the trub loss (3L), expand the water (divide by 0.96), add evaporation (divide by 0.85 for a 10% system at 90 min boil),you should be left with a number like 29.5L, this is the pre boil volume. Now, as mentioned earlier I start with a volume of 26, minus the grain absorption (about 1L/kg) and sparge with the difference to get to the pre boil volume.
> 
> BeerSmith makes this easy as it does it all for you, but you see that you never need more than 30L in there when doing basic recipes like DSGA, which was my first recipe to brew on my BM. .



So, basically, you can work out a pre-boil volume you need. And then you can work out if your pre-boil volume you'll actually get will exceed that. If it will then your BM's volumes aren't practical.

As I mentioned before, you can work out the volumes/sparges etc for a low-range, mid-range, high-range beer.

You BM's dimensions need to be such that you'll be able to accomplish what you want, which means ending up with a pre-boil volume <= the pre-boil volume that you need.

As the gravity of your wort increases, the loss to absorption becomes more significant (higher gravity losses), and most likely a high percentage of the total (more grain less wort), which is why efficiency drops as you go up. Sparging helps to recover this loss, but dilutes the wort!


----------



## Malted

lael said:


> Really the only restriction then is the minimum water levels required vs amount of grain you can fit in the malt pipe. I've done some partial mashes, but I guess there is a lot more to learn about all grain - I'll read through those sections of the books I've got.
> 
> I didn't realise BIAB could be 'full volume' does this mean running the full pre-boil volume in mashing?
> 
> How do you determine how much sparge water to add into a batch? as far as I can tell an urn or similar (i guess a kettle would work for smaller batches) seems necessary/desirable (rinsing, cleaning, sparging etc?) unless you are no-sparging?
> 
> buut... if I was to buy another same size pot and cut it down to 25cm high, the numbers look better - min water volume of 26L for max grain bill of 5.2kg. That might work.
> 
> Either way - I'm guessing bringing the 50L required for a 40L batch to the boil isn't going to happen with a 2400w element. Hmmm - go ghetto and bung in an immersion heater? lol


You have a limited gravity and volume range, outside of these are not as easy as with other systems. The system is optimal when used inside these ranges but you need to do things differently outside of the ranges. There are other restrictions but for most brews minimum water level and maximum amount of grain are the main limiting factors (but that is specifically thinking in regards to big beers - aka high gravity beers). Other factors migh include things like: say you do an 80% wheat beer or use >20% rye, these mashes can get stuck (i.e. they gloop up that much that the pump is unable to push the wort through them, then you get burnt stuff on the elements and nasty results like that). In this case you may need to add rice hulls to bulk the grist out (it is like fibre in your diet, generally it has little nutritional value but more of it makes your poo runnier :lol: ). Extra rice hulls can mean less space for grain which can mean lower potential gravity of the wort. 

Yes some BIAB chaps put the full volume into their pot and dunk the grain into it and do not sparge. That is, they start with enough water to account for the total losses through the whole process to achive their desired volume into the fermenter. Since they don't sparge and thus reduce efficiency, they have to add some extra grain to achieve their desired gravity of the desired volume. It takes a little bit to calculate it (but no more than planning any other style of brewing) but has the advantage of being a simple and easy brewday.

How much sparge water. You can calculate your theoretical or expected losses but the best way is to start from there and measure everything to fine tune those predictions for subsequent brewing. Measure how much water you start with (always), measure how much is still in there when you pull the grain out, measure how much you sparge with, measure how much is in the kettle pre-boil, measure how much is in the kettle post boil, measure how much trub is left in the kettle when you have drained off to your cube or fermenter (easy to do but a lot of foilks don't do this), measure how much is in the fermenter, measure how much yeast and gunk is left in the fermenter after you rack to a keg or bottle it. Measure measure measure to determine your expected values for future, then expect them to vary slightly. Boil off/evaporation rates can vary, grain absoption rates can vary, more flour in the grist will probably mean more kettle trub (and thus greater volume losses), a crap load of hops will soak up some of the wort and lead to greater losses, different strains of yeast can mean less or more finished beer, lots of dry hops in the fermenter will soak up some beer; ergo the volume of finished beer can vary from batch to batch. An easy safe gaurd on the hot side is to do an extra sparge of the malt pipe over a bucket and hold that liquid to near the end of the boil and add it if neccessary to reach the desired post boil volume. 

Buy another pot and cut it down - by all means! That's the difference between the 'short' malt pipe and the regular malt pipe in the 50L Braumeister. Diameter and design is exactly the same, only the height varies. 

Given sufficient insulation and a lid and you are able to reduce energy loss, I'd suggest that _perhaps_ 2400w _might_ bring 40L to the boil (but I suspect not) but would be painfully slow if it did. However, there are a few reasons why you would not want a full lid on during the boil. Yep plenty of folks throw an over the side immersion element into the fray. Bare in mind a lot of the cheap ones burn out and are dangerous. Get a good one if you do that. 


Are you starting to understand why such a project is easier for seasoned AG brewers to get their heads around it? Go to someones brewday, watch them brew an all grain beer. Seeing is learning. Keep asking questions, we might just get you through it. :super: 




lael said:


> yeah, the numbers are based on the spreadsheet i posted a few posts back, and then the loss figures (boil, cooling, trub) are based on what malted suggested above.


Malted was focussed on the spreadsheet and did not mention loss to grain absorbtion (even though it was in his head with regards to how much he needs to sparge). He should have mentioned it. The other posters after his explained it. 

To go over it again: grain goes in water, grain comes out of water, grain keeps some of the water, you now have less water in the pot. Even if you squeeze the grain, it will still keep some water. Some folks think it is ok to squeeze the grain, some think it is not ok. You might get more liquid out of it by squeezing but it might be cloudy and lead to more trub in the kettle and thus lower volume of wort produced, so you may not gain anything by squeezing, maybe you will have more sugars, maybe you won't.


----------



## Crusty

Malted said:


> Yes some BIAB chaps put the full volume into their pot and dunk the grain into it and do not sparge. That is, they start with enough water to account for the total losses through the whole process to achive their desired volume into the fermenter. Since they don't sparge and thus reduce efficiency, they have to add some extra grain to achieve their desired gravity of the desired volume. It takes a little bit to calculate it (but no more than planning any other style of brewing) but has the advantage of being a simple and easy brewday.



Nice post Malted but really curious as to why you think not sparging effects efficiency.
As a former 3V brewer, double batch sparger, I get low to mid 80% efficiency with my Biab setup. This is on par with my old 3V setup.
A 90min sacc rest & a mashout will get you your efficiency. I add no extra grain for my recipes to compensate for lower efficiency, it just doesn't happen.
If you need to add extra grain to boost efficiency, you need to be concentrating on other factors in your process, certainly not because you Biab.


----------



## Thefatdoghead

Crusty said:


> Nice post Malted but really curious as to why you think not sparging effects efficiency.
> As a former 3V brewer, double batch sparger, I get low to mid 80% efficiency with my Biab setup. This is on par with my old 3V setup.
> A 90min sacc rest & a mashout will get you your efficiency. I add no extra grain for my recipes to compensate for lower efficiency, it just doesn't happen.
> If you need to add extra grain to boost efficiency, you need to be concentrating on other factors in your process, certainly not because you Biab.


I definitely get from about 65% efficiency to 84% just by sparging. It's kind of a fine line where the less efficiency you get the more malt you have to add BUT if you add more malt, efficiency drops in the ass as well.


----------



## Crusty

Gav80 said:


> I definitely get from about 65% efficiency to 84% just by sparging. It's kind of a fine line where the less efficiency you get the more malt you have to add BUT if you add more malt, efficiency drops in the ass as well.



My very first Biab was a huge surprise for me. Due to reading several post about crap efficiency, turbid wort, no chill haze problems etc, I decided to aim for high efficiency, 70% as opposed to the general consensus of low to mid 60%, as you found out. As I wasn't going to sparge anymore, I closed my mill gap down to the thickness of my credit card & went with a recipe I have made several times on the 3V setup. The recipe was scaled back from 80% to 70% to compensate for Biab & as a result, more grain went into the mash to get my target OG. A 90min sacc rest & a mashout yielded a temp corrected wort ( 23lt ) of 1.050 instead of the 1.042 predicted. So my 70% efficiency became 83% into the fermenter. From this day on my recipes are based on 80% efficiency & it has proven to be bang on. My last DSGA clone came in at 80%, 23lt @1.048, exactly as predicted.


----------



## lael

Edak said:


> your calculation looks dodgy somehow. Using my system for example, I need a minimum of 23 litres when the maltpipe is installed including the grain volume. I start my system every time with 23 litres, add the grain, which adds another 3L volume for a total of approx 26 litres.



Can I check here - I think I understand, but want to be sure - you aren't saying you add 3 Litres to compensate for the grain - you are saying that the grain volume increases the total fluid volume in the system by 3 Litres?



> You need to calculate backwards for volumes for sparge water though, so if you want 21L into fermenter, add the trub loss (3L), expand the water (divide by 0.96), add evaporation (divide by 0.85 for a 10% system at 90 min boil),you should be left with a number like 29.5L, this is the pre boil volume. Now, as mentioned earlier I start with a volume of 26, minus the grain absorption (about 1L/kg) and sparge with the difference to get to the pre boil volume.
> 
> BeerSmith makes this easy as it does it all for you, but you see that you never need more than 30L in there when doing basic recipes like DSGA, which was my first recipe to brew on my BM. .



ok - so can i confirm - you put the pre-boil volume in as the strike water, you lose some to grain absorption, then you replace it during sparge to get back to pre-boil volume? Thanks for the numbers - very helpful.


----------



## QldKev

On my 3V I let Beersmith do the maths for me, and just dial it up so I'm just shy on my pre-boil water level. It's easy to add 1/2 a litre, than to remove it. 

There is a another way to adjust water for differing grain bills. On my 1V upfront say I don't give a f.... I have three marks 32, 29 and 25. I don't adjust water levels to suit grain bills. Strike 32L, mash etc.. Remove the BIAB, drain for a sec into the kettle and drop the bag into a bucket. Check my vols. On a smaller grain bill I will be already at 29L, on bigger ones I will need to pour some drainings from the bucket back into the kettle; on really big grain bills I may need to sparge the bag a little to get more vol from the bucket, to achieve my 29L level. From here on our the 60min boil from 29 to 25 is all constant. 

If you are BIAB'ing brewing bigger beers in a small vessel and are having issues with the vol of strike water plus grain, just leave some water out up front. Add it as part of a sparge routine. Back when I use to traditional BIAB I always allowed a 3L sparge water addition. 

QldKev


----------



## stux

Grain displaces about 0.7L/KG when wet

Grain really absorbs about 1.56L/Kg, but contributes about 800g of extract/KG, which itself displaces about 309ml, which means an apparent absorption of about 1L/Kg (depending on gravity of wort)

Crusty. There is an efficiency drop. If you sparged you'd get closer to 90% efficiency 

Of course at normal gravities it's not worth the bother with BIAB because efficiencies are pretty good with full volume no sparge


----------



## Malted

Crusty said:


> Nice post Malted but really curious as to why you think not sparging effects efficiency.


Simple Crusty, sparging extracts extra sugars that you would otherwise leave behind. Boil off the extra liquid that you introduced and the resultant wort has more sugars in it than had you not sparged. In your case you don't need extra sugars. 

I am not commenting from the comment that you commented on, that my comment was that it is unique to BIAB. Sparging on any system will increase efficiency of extract extraction. 



Stux said:


> Crusty. There is an efficiency drop. If you sparged you'd get closer to 90% efficiency
> Of course at normal gravities it's not worth the bother with BIAB because efficiencies are pretty good with full volume no sparge


----------



## lael

Stux said:


> So, basically, you can work out a pre-boil volume you need. And then you can work out if your pre-boil volume you'll actually get will exceed that. If it will then your BM's volumes aren't practical.
> 
> As I mentioned before, you can work out the volumes/sparges etc for a low-range, mid-range, high-range beer.
> 
> You BM's dimensions need to be such that you'll be able to accomplish what you want, which means ending up with a pre-boil volume <= the pre-boil volume that you need.
> 
> As the gravity of your wort increases, the loss to absorption becomes more significant (higher gravity losses), and most likely a high percentage of the total (more grain less wort), which is why efficiency drops as you go up. Sparging helps to recover this loss, but dilutes the wort!



thanks ekad and stux! - this is very helpful! I now understand why / how high-gravity is less efficient! 

so - pre-boil volume basically can be lower, but can't be higher. It's easy to fix low pre-boil by sparging / adding water (which will affect gravity as mashing pulls out more sugars than sparging), but if you are higher - boiling longer is a bad solution. 

Therefore - if you can't hit pre-boil or lower with the malt pipe design - back to the drawing board. 

ok, so qualifies as low / med / high? 

low ? 

med 1040 - 1060? 

high 1060+?


----------



## lael

> You have a limited gravity and volume range, outside of these are not as easy as with other systems. The system is optimal when used inside these ranges but you need to do things differently outside of the ranges. There are other restrictions but for most brews minimum water level and maximum amount of grain are the main limiting factors (but that is specifically thinking in regards to big beers - aka high gravity beers). Other factors migh include things like: say you do an 80% wheat beer or use >20% rye, these mashes can get stuck (i.e. they gloop up that much that the pump is unable to push the wort through them, then you get burnt stuff on the elements and nasty results like that). In this case you may need to add rice hulls to bulk the grist out (it is like fibre in your diet, generally it has little nutritional value but more of it makes your poo runnier :lol: ). Extra rice hulls can mean less space for grain which can mean lower potential gravity of the wort.



would a more powerful pump help deal with this issue? and does wort scorching occur even with low watt density elements?



> Yes some BIAB chaps put the full volume into their pot and dunk the grain into it and do not sparge. That is, they start with enough water to account for the total losses through the whole process to achive their desired volume into the fermenter. Since they don't sparge and thus reduce efficiency, they have to add some extra grain to achieve their desired gravity of the desired volume. It takes a little bit to calculate it (but no more than planning any other style of brewing) but has the advantage of being a simple and easy brewday.
> 
> How much sparge water. You can calculate your theoretical or expected losses but the best way is to start from there and measure everything to fine tune those predictions for subsequent brewing. Measure how much water you start with (always), measure how much is still in there when you pull the grain out, measure how much you sparge with, measure how much is in the kettle pre-boil, measure how much is in the kettle post boil, measure how much trub is left in the kettle when you have drained off to your cube or fermenter (easy to do but a lot of foilks don't do this), measure how much is in the fermenter, measure how much yeast and gunk is left in the fermenter after you rack to a keg or bottle it. Measure measure measure to determine your expected values for future, then expect them to vary slightly. Boil off/evaporation rates can vary, grain absoption rates can vary, more flour in the grist will probably mean more kettle trub (and thus greater volume losses), a crap load of hops will soak up some of the wort and lead to greater losses, different strains of yeast can mean less or more finished beer, lots of dry hops in the fermenter will soak up some beer; ergo the volume of finished beer can vary from batch to batch. An easy safe gaurd on the hot side is to do an extra sparge of the malt pipe over a bucket and hold that liquid to near the end of the boil and add it if neccessary to reach the desired post boil volume.



are there any guidelines on how much sparge water is required to effectively extract sufficient sugars from a 'single' or 'double' sugars? Does anyone sparge over a bucket and then pass the sparged water through the grain again to pull more sugar out? (would it be worth the effort?)



> Buy another pot and cut it down - by all means! That's the difference between the 'short' malt pipe and the regular malt pipe in the 50L Braumeister. Diameter and design is exactly the same, only the height varies.
> 
> Given sufficient insulation and a lid and you are able to reduce energy loss, I'd suggest that _perhaps_ 2400w _might_ bring 40L to the boil (but I suspect not) but would be painfully slow if it did. However, there are a few reasons why you would not want a full lid on during the boil. Yep plenty of folks throw an over the side immersion element into the fray. Bare in mind a lot of the cheap ones burn out and are dangerous. Get a good one if you do that.



I'm going to run some more numbers - it seems like the key is finding a size of pots/ malt pipes that allow flexibility. Ideal (I'm guessing for me) would be to find a pot 35dia 45 height that could then be used (bought three times and cut to suit height) for different batch sizes. 




> Are you starting to understand why such a project is easier for seasoned AG brewers to get their heads around it? Go to someones brewday, watch them brew an all grain beer. Seeing is learning. Keep asking questions, we might just get you through it. :super:



definitely! thanks for the help! I think I'm starting to get my head around the parameters to make it work. 




> Malted was focussed on the spreadsheet and did not mention loss to grain absorbtion (even though it was in his head with regards to how much he needs to sparge). He should have mentioned it. The other posters after his explained it.
> 
> To go over it again: grain goes in water, grain comes out of water, grain keeps some of the water, you now have less water in the pot. Even if you squeeze the grain, it will still keep some water. Some folks think it is ok to squeeze the grain, some think it is not ok. You might get more liquid out of it by squeezing but it might be cloudy and lead to more trub in the kettle and thus lower volume of wort produced, so you may not gain anything by squeezing, maybe you will have more sugars, maybe you won't.



Thanks again everyone for all the help - super appreciative!


----------



## Malted

lael said:


> Can I check here - I think I understand, but want to be sure - you aren't saying you add 3 Litres to compensate for the grain - you are saying that the grain volume increases the total fluid volume in the system by 3 Litres?
> 
> 
> ok - so can i confirm - you put the pre-boil volume in as the strike water, you lose some to grain absorption, then you replace it during sparge to get back to pre-boil volume? Thanks for the numbers - very helpful.



Yes that seems to be correct. I think he is saying that the grain displaces a volume of water. This is important because you don't want things to overflow. You need to think about total volumes when sizing pots.
However, the grain soaks up some of the water too, how much is soaked up and how much is displaced is explained by Stux. I still am not sure of the numbers. 



For BIAB and 3V systems that could be the process and that is the basic principle of it; but it is not that simple for a BM or clone. I do not put the preboil volume in as strike water, I have to add some water at err umm, preboil  . 

For a BM or clone where you are targeting a particular bottling volume (eg 50L of finished beer from a 50L BM), the preboil volume may include amounts to compensate for grain absorption, boiling evaporation, cooling loss [it is not an actual loss but is a volumetric loss], loss to kettle trub, loss to yeast/trub in fermenter etc. I can not physically put this amount of water in as strike water as it would drown the malt pipe. Some folks have a way around this but that might be digressing too far atm. 

For example, for a 50L bottling volume, I might mash in 53L of strike water but the total water needed is in the order of 73L (to account for all losses). The 50L BM pot has a total volume of about 80L so if I had a strike volume of 73L, I would go close to overflowing (accounting for displacement) and would drown the malt pipe. Therefore my strike water volume is less than the preboil volume, ergo I have to add extra water to reach desired preboil volumes and if I do not add this as sparge water then I am just wasting sugars. 

After the mash, when I take the grain out that reduces the volume in the BM becase the grain is not displacing anything and they stole some of my wort due to absorption, this then gives me more space for the sparge water and when added I am then up to my preboil volume (which is not 73L but about 66L). 

I might then lose 10L to evap during the boil, 56L remains post boil. 2L by volume mysteriously vanishes somewhere during the process as the wort cools, theoretically 54L remains. I might lose 2L to kettle trub, 52L remains. I ferment that and lose 2L to yeast trub, I keg 50L of finished beer. I then get drunk every night and the missus calls me condescending (though I don't think that word is in her vocabulary but that is what she means) when I get yabbery after having moved onto the red wine after a few beers. These are not hard and fast numbers, they are approximates only. More than likely I would lose a greater amount to kettle and fermenter trub than that.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Malted said:


> I then get drunk every night and the missus calls me condescending (though I don't think that word is in her vocabulary but that is what she means) when I get yabbery after having moved onto the red wine after a few beers. These are not hard and fast numbers, they are approximates only. More than likely I would lose a greater amount to kettle and fermenter trub than that.




not to mention if the missus gets nasty and pours said beer on ones head, further losses but predicting these accurately is as impossible as predicting her mood. h34r:


----------



## lael

ok - trying to be able to run pot - testing scenarios quicker and keep a record of what works and doesn't. Can I get a couple of you to look over this and see if it looks right as far as strike volumes / post mash / sparge etc please? 

Its basically angus' spreadsheet in a different layout with further calcs to check strike vols etc. 

View attachment Lael__s_Braumiser_Volume_ScenarioTester.xls


----------



## Edak

So when I went to KK this week I saw that they are going to start selling the Kaixin pump instead of their current version. This is a good re-assurance to the quality of the Kaixin pump. They said that the price would drop a little bit too. I compared both pumps and the only thing that was alike was the colour, otherwise completely different.


----------



## bonj

Edak said:


> So when I went to KK this week I saw that they are going to start selling the Kaixin pump instead of their current version. This is a good re-assurance to the quality of the Kaixin pump. They said that the price would drop a little bit too. I compared both pumps and the only thing that was alike was the colour, otherwise completely different.


A reseller switching to a cheaper unit is by no means an assurance on quality.


----------



## Edak

Bonj said:


> A reseller switching to a cheaper unit is by no means an assurance on quality.


This I suppose is true, I still use the other pump (barb fitted one).


----------



## angus_grant

Bonj said:


> A reseller switching to a cheaper unit is by no means an assurance on quality.


he he, you took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## lael

I'm thinking about buying a sheet of perforated stainless from metalmesh / m&s. Essentially it looks like two things. 1. 2mm thick stainless is more expensive - actually about the same price as 1.5mm but the sheet size is smaller. 2. stainless perforated sheet is just expensive. 1.5mm 2500x1250 or 2mm 2000x1000 both work out at just under $600. 2mm thick is about $580. With cutting i think it would be about 30 more. Is anyone interested in getting plates / sharing a section of the sheet? The companies I've spoken to have all said they don't have / do offcuts...

From my calcs you could get the following plus some small offcuts out of a
1.5mm sheet (sizes are assuming no cut width for the blade, so would be slightly smaller I would imagine). 6x350mm 12x200 4x450 2x 300x450
or
2mm sheet (again without blade losses). 2x450, 8x350, 4x300

I'm in Sydney - happy to travel / meet up to help people get them after cutting. Appx cost is num plates / sheet + cut cost. for 1.5mm it would be about $30ea, for 2mm it would be about $45-50 ea. (24 pieces vs 14 pieces per sheet). I need to double check the larger sheet size as it may have been 2440, in which case the costs for 1.5 would be higher. I'm leaning toward 2mm as people with 1.5 have commented it is perhaps not strong enough.

Thoughts?


----------



## Malted

lael said:


> I'm thinking about buying a sheet of perforated stainless from metalmesh / m&s. Essentially it looks like two things. 1. 2mm thick stainless is more expensive - actually about the same price as 1.5mm but the sheet size is smaller. 2. stainless perforated sheet is just expensive. 1.5mm 2500x1250 or 2mm 2000x1000 both work out at just under $600. 2mm thick is about $580. With cutting i think it would be about 30 more. Is anyone interested in getting plates / sharing a section of the sheet? The companies I've spoken to have all said they don't have / do offcuts...
> 
> From my calcs you could get the following plus some small offcuts out of a
> 1.5mm sheet (sizes are assuming no cut width for the blade, so would be slightly smaller I would imagine). 6x350mm 12x200 4x450 2x 300x450
> or
> 2mm sheet (again without blade losses). 2x450, 8x350, 4x300
> 
> I'm in Sydney - happy to travel / meet up to help people get them after cutting. Appx cost is num plates / sheet + cut cost. for 1.5mm it would be about $30ea, for 2mm it would be about $45-50 ea. (24 pieces vs 14 pieces per sheet). I need to double check the larger sheet size as it may have been 2440, in which case the costs for 1.5 would be higher. I'm leaning toward 2mm as people with 1.5 have commented it is perhaps not strong enough.
> 
> Thoughts?


Some folks have bought thinner perf sheet (eg link http://australia.rs-online.com/web/c/abrasives-engineering-materials/mild-steel-tube-sheets-angles/perforated-steel-sheets/?searchTerm=perforated+sheet&sort-by=default&sort-order=default&applied-dimensions=4294881846&lastAttributeSelectedBlock=4294959273 but this looks too flimsy at 0.55mm thick) because it is available in smaller sheets and then have reinforced it with bracing bars to stop it flexing as much. I was going to go the same way as you. The smaller the holes, the thinner the sheet and vice versa - I just could not get thick enough sheet with fine holes and it seemed like too much effort so I just bought some 2mm plate, cut it myself and then drilled it out.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Malted said:


> Some folks have bought thinner perf sheet (eg link http://australia.rs-online.com/web/c/abrasives-engineering-materials/mild-steel-tube-sheets-angles/perforated-steel-sheets/?searchTerm=perforated+sheet&sort-by=default&sort-order=default&applied-dimensions=4294881846&lastAttributeSelectedBlock=4294959273 but this looks too flimsy at 0.55mm thick) because it is available in smaller sheets and then have reinforced it with bracing bars to stop it flexing as much. I was going to go the same way as you. The smaller the holes, the thinner the sheet and vice versa - I just could not get thick enough sheet with fine holes and it seemed like too much effort so I just bought some 2mm plate, cut it myself and then drilled it out.


Hell! now thats devotion to the task, how long did it take to drill out and how many holes. :huh:


----------



## Malted

MastersBrewery said:


> Hell! now thats devotion to the task, how long did it take to drill out and how many holes. :huh:


A very long time and two pilot drill bits. Deburring and polishing took almost as long. I didn't count the holes. Probably would not have attempted it if I didn't have a drill press.
I still have to do the other plate :unsure: but I know it will be worth it. I am using a Big W pot for the malt pipe; the buggers are slightly tapered so they can nest. This means that that the bottom plate has to have a slightly smaller diameter than the top plate.

The center tie-rod is a beauty. I am not using all thread rod, I got some SS rod and cut thread onto the ends of it. Likewise I got a 10mm section of 50mm round bar and cut a thread through it, instead of putting a washer on the inside of the outer pot.

ATM I am trying to juggle the pump, fittings, element ends and control box so I can decide where to drill the holes in the main pot. Oh and I still have not got the code flashed up to the controller because I have not got the upload process sorted out. It has been sitting for far too long because of competing priorities (read - the missus won't let me play in the shed for very long atm). I am getting antsy about it not being finished yet.


----------



## matho

Malted said:


> ATM I am trying to juggle the pump, fittings, element ends and control box so I can decide where to drill the holes in the main pot. Oh and I still have not got the code flashed up to the controller because I have not got the upload process sorted out.


Malted if you need help loading the code, bonj or me can help, just let me know.

About the filter plates, you don't need very small holes if you are using a filter mesh as well, my top plate has slots over 1cm wide, it holds the mesh in place very well.

cheers steve


----------



## angus_grant

I am just going to use a cut-up BIAB sock on my top filter plate and see how that goes for the first few brews. I did buy some mesh off another user but it is slightly smaller than my top filter plate.

But will be able to fit that mesh to the bottom filter plate, which I haven't figured out yet. Will probably buy another grill plate like I already have and cut it down to fit.


----------



## stux

Jaybire in the US makes custom perf mesh false bottoms for kettles/mashtuns. 

http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/

A filter plate is very similar to a false bottom


----------



## MastersBrewery

Stux said:


> Jaybire in the US makes custom perf mesh false bottoms for kettles/mashtuns.
> 
> http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/
> 
> A filter plate is very similar to a false bottom


I noted this earlier in the thread, but @ $100 a plate it might be worth following Malted's meathod


----------



## Malted

matho said:


> Malted if you need help loading the code, bonj or me can help, just let me know.Malted if you need help loading the code, bonj or me can help, just let me know.
> 
> About the filter plates, you don't need very small holes if you are using a filter mesh as well, my top plate has slots over 1cm wide, it holds the mesh in place very well.
> 
> cheers steve


Cheers mate, I have had some advice from others in this thread but I suspect there is something wrong between the keyboard and the office chair and didn't want to bother you about it. I will wait until I have it fully built and then may drag it to Vortex's house and see what he can do with it; I haven't asked him yet so we'll see how closely he is following this thread 

My holes are about 2mm IIRC, I am hoping to do away with filter mesh if I can, we'll see how it works out for me, oneday...




MastersBrewery said:


> I noted this earlier in the thread, but @ $100 a plate it might be worth following Malted's meathod


Only if you're as looney as me. :mellow:
.


----------



## lael

Malted said:


> A very long time and two pilot drill bits. Deburring and polishing took almost as long. I didn't count the holes. Probably would not have attempted it if I didn't have a drill press.
> I still have to do the other plate :unsure: but I know it will be worth it. I am using a Big W pot for the malt pipe; the buggers are slightly tapered so they can nest. This means that that the bottom plate has to have a slightly smaller diameter than the top plate.
> 
> The center tie-rod is a beauty. I am not using all thread rod, I got some SS rod and cut thread onto the ends of it. Likewise I got a 10mm section of 50mm round bar and cut a thread through it, instead of putting a washer on the inside of the outer pot.
> 
> ATM I am trying to juggle the pump, fittings, element ends and control box so I can decide where to drill the holes in the main pot. Oh and I still have not got the code flashed up to the controller because I have not got the upload process sorted out. It has been sitting for far too long because of competing priorities (read - the missus won't let me play in the shed for very long atm). I am getting antsy about it not being finished yet.


I may have found a place to get the plates... we will see. I need to go visit for offcuts. Although they said they don't normally do perf. So we will see. I still need to finish my calcs for the malt pipe. Once I have finalised where to get the plates I'll prob be more antsy to get a move on!


----------



## lael

ok,

I've been running some numbers based on brews @ OG of 1040, 1052, 1074, 1103 (near impossible). I've also placed edak's build and the braumeister numbers in for reference & comparison.

Malted - did you say a 20L malt pipe batch on the 50L really is about a 30L batch? The numbers I am hitting suggest a 20L batch would run out of water.

Otherwise - hitting a blend of being able to do both is hard. Quite hard. I think the top scenario I have would work. I'm still not convinced I have the formula / relationship for figuring out Pre Boil / sparge water correct. If someone could check it and find an issue that would be awesome.

Love any feedback on this.

Some related Q's - what is the minimum volume of water to avoid a compacted grain bed / stuck sparge (ie pump can't handle it) on a braumeister / clone? With a lower number would a larger pump solve the problem?

Edit: realised BigW pot specs were wrong on spreadsheet - adjusted and re-uploaded. 

View attachment Lael's Braumiser_Volume_ScenarioTester.xls


----------



## Malted

Lael: I noticed a few things.
It is a big table and my head hurts from looking at it. I only do simple numbers. I will have to give it more thought.

The section pertaining to the 50L BM.
so you have calculated the maximum volume of the regular malt pipe as being 33.67L and that the maximum grain amount is 9.23 kg. I have had up to 13kg (and thought I could go a couple more) but I do not believe you could fit 20kg of grain into the regular maltpipe. How is it useful to calculate values outside of reality?

Minimum height of water will depend upon how high your element sits in the main vessel.

I am not sure that a more powerful pump would overcome a low liqour to grist ratio.

Edit: I had liqour and grist around the wrong way.


----------



## lael

HI Malted,

Thanks for taking a look at it. Its basically a number of scenarios just to see what is / isn't possible. The formulae are identical from row to row except they reference the values from the row they are in.

The crazy numbers are there for comparison and to keep all scenarios the same (comparing four different gravities per pot sizing scenario). The dashed line is between scenarios. A green highlighted cell means the numbers are in expected ranges, red means they are outside expected ranges.

I don't really expect to fit 20kg in the malt pipe at all.

13Kg in the 50L malt pipe is a liquor - grist ratio of 2.59L/kg - If that still works well- that is partially what I was looking for - to find the minimum liquor/grist ratios to figure out the gravity range that is possible for different pot sizes. Is there a maximum liquor to grist ratio required to allow a proper grain bed to form/ can you have too much liquid and not enough grain in the malt pipe? (although I guess that isn't a problem you have faced - is there a minimum grain bill Speidel recommend not to go under?


----------



## Malted

lael said:


> HI Malted,
> 
> (although I guess that isn't a problem you have faced - is there a minimum grain bill Speidel recommend not to go under?


Speidel reccommend a range of 9-11kg for the 50L BM.
I have not done a low gravity with the regular malt pipe. I did a 28L batch of 1.040 with 4.5kg of grain in the short malt pipe, I would need to dig up my paper based notes to determine volumes.
Regular malt pipe 13kg produced 53L batch at 1.062.
The only higher gravity brews I have done were either on the regular pipe and boiled down or with the short malt pipe and boiled down.


----------



## Edak

So far my largest grain bill was 4.9kg. I think I could have fit another 300g but I will not likely go past 5kg.

I originally entered into my beerSmith notes:
"16.5L volume in the malt pipe. 0.65L/kg displacement of grain at ratio of 2.8L/kg we have a max grain weight of about 4.8kg"


----------



## MastersBrewery

Malted said:


> Lael: I noticed a few things.
> It is a big table and my head hurts from looking at it. I only do simple numbers. I will have to give it more thought.
> 
> The section pertaining to the 50L BM.
> so you have calculated the maximum volume of the regular malt pipe as being 33.67L and that the maximum grain amount is 9.23 kg. I have had up to 13kg (and thought I could go a couple more) but I do not believe you could fit 20kg of grain into the regular maltpipe. How is it useful to calculate values outside of reality?


I note the BM's malt pipe is nearly exactly double Edak's clone so he could theoretically put 6.5kg in that puppy!!






Edit: too early for my typing skills


----------



## lael

Edak said:


> So far my largest grain bill was 4.9kg. I think I could have fit another 300g but I will not likely go past 5kg.
> 
> I originally entered into my beerSmith notes:
> "16.5L volume in the malt pipe. 0.65L/kg displacement of grain at ratio of 2.8L/kg we have a max grain weight of about 4.8kg"


Thanks! That's helpful practical information. Did you find it was struggling with 5kg? or reckon you could squeeze more in?



MastersBrewery said:


> I note the BM's malt pipe is nearly exactly double Edak's clone so he could theoretically put 6.5kg in that puppy!!


It's true in the height - but I think the diameter is 31 at the top of the Big W pot and 29 at the bottom, and the braumeister is 35 - which might explain the difference. I'd love to have Edak try and report back though


----------



## Edak

As I mentioned in my earlier post I don't think that I will put much more than 5kg in there, I want to have a good flow past the grain and don't really like the idea of wort fountains.

If my ratio is already at 2.8/kg when mashing 4.8kg then you can see why I won't move much.

Matho did the maths (pardon my pun) which is correct and I think you (Lael) have misunderstood. You don't seem to be taking the grain volume into consideration. If I have 16.5L available volume in the malt pipe (between the filter plates), an assumed grain displacement of 0.65L/kg and a 2.8L/kg water/grain ratio then I need a total volume of 2.8+0.65=3.45L per kg of grain. 

16.5L total volume gives me a total grain weight of 16.5/3.45=4.78kg

Using your suggested grain weight of 6.5kg I would have a grain/water ratio of (16.5/6.5)-0.65=1.88L/kg and in my opinion that would be unrealistic.


----------



## lael

Hi Edak,

Thanks for the reply - I do understand, and I don't think it awfully realistic, but more an interesting experiment. Malted mentioned doing 13Kg in the 50L braumeister, which resulted in a 1062 wort. Ratio (including displacement) would be 2.59/ ideal 3.6. If you were to try a 1070 wort / OG, You would need 6.2kg @ 70% efficiency (according to clone brews), which would leave you at 2.43 / ideal 3.6. 200ml less per litre than malted's actual scenario. I'm not sure whether it would fit / work, but as I'm planning and buying parts to build one - of course I'm curious to know the actual limits a braumiser / braumeister can handle (allows better pot/malt pipe sizing etc).

I can't imagine it would actually cause any damage - oh wait - I suppose the pressure could build up and cause the fountains you are talking about. Would be messy perhaps, but I can't imagine any permanent damage? But by no means imagine I'm suggesting you should actually do something you are uncomfortable with.... just egging you on a little 

One of the things I don't have that you do have is on the ground experience - is there a way to tell when the braumiser seems to be struggling with a set volume of grain before it causes wort fountains?

How is your top filter solution going by the way? I thought it was ingenious and plan to do the same thing. Are you still using (from memory from your build posts) a pizza tray as the lower filter? How far off the bottom of the Big W pot / malt pipe do you have it?


----------



## mr_wibble

printed forms section said:


> can anyone explain the wiring on these probes? the site says it's single wire interface, yet shows 3 wires and the thermometer they link is 12Volt, . Is there any chance these would work on an STC1000?


Looking at the flat-side - the pins are GND, Data, VCC.
If you get the GND and VCC reversed these things can get _very_ hot (don't ask how I know).

I've attached an image, which is part of a bigger circuit I made for my own reference.
But the wiring for the DS18B20 is quite clear.


----------



## Edak

lael said:


> Hi Edak,
> 
> ...I can't imagine it would actually cause any damage ...
> 
> ... is there a way to tell when the braumiser seems to be struggling with a set volume of grain before it causes wort fountains?
> 
> How is your top filter solution going by the way? I thought it was ingenious and plan to do the same thing. Are you still using (from memory from your build posts) a pizza tray as the lower filter? How far off the bottom of the Big W pot / malt pipe do you have it?


Hi Lael, 

A block stops flow, which increases pressure on the plates, which results in fountains and (if like myself you have not got 2mm thick steel plates) possible bent plates, not to mention hot wort all over the place and an interrupted/possibly harmed mash. There is no tell-tale sign before this that I have been able to identify. The plates aren't permanently damaged but it would be a pain in the ass if they were to bend enough to let some grain get out of the MP and into your pump.

Pizza tray is running perfectly, it sits upon the silicone tube which I use to seal the MP so I guess that's about 13mm from the base of the pot. 

EDIT: Going by the original stated values for ratio (by Matho), he doesn't recommend less than 2.3L/kg so going off that I could potentially get 16.5/(2.3+0.65)=5.6kg There's hope for you yet!


----------



## bonj

Perhaps a flow sensor might be beneficial if you are worried about blocking.... just need to find one rated to boiling. The cheap one I have is not.


----------



## Edak

I am not worried about blocking, but I would if I were to try and stuff 6.5kg of grain into my MP...


----------



## lael

Edak said:


> Hi Lael,
> 
> A block stops flow, which increases pressure on the plates, which results in fountains and (if like myself you have not got 2mm thick steel plates) possible bent plates, not to mention hot wort all over the place and an interrupted/possibly harmed mash. There is no tell-tale sign before this that I have been able to identify. The plates aren't permanently damaged but it would be a pain in the ass if they were to bend enough to let some grain get out of the MP and into your pump.
> 
> Pizza tray is running perfectly, it sits upon the silicone tube which I use to seal the MP so I guess that's about 13mm from the base of the pot.
> 
> EDIT: Going by the original stated values for ratio (by Matho), he doesn't recommend less than 2.3L/kg so going off that I could potentially get 16.5/(2.3+0.65)=5.6kg There's hope for you yet!


hehe  well, here's hoping! 

ok - cool - I'll start looking for a tray or similar that can serve as my bottom plate. I guess it still needs to be strong enough to hold the grain and water when you lift - so prob still needs to be quite strong? Have you done anything to baffle the water flow from the skin fitting to the grain? or is just having a small space with water there enough? I guess its impossible to tell whether you have even flow through the grain bed once it's all in the malt pipe.


----------



## lael

Hi,

So... slowly assembling all my pieces. Think I still need to get silicone hose for the malt pipe seal and some for wort transfer. is 3/8 the right ID for the malt pipe seal? 3mm wall thickness?

I also need to start cutting the stainless - any suggestions on how to cut the bottom of the malt pipe pot out? I also got some stainless plate for the upper and lower filter - again - any suggestions on cutting technique would be helpful.

Lastly - I'm not sure if this is possible, but would it be possible / anyone know of a way to put in a 4KW heater or similar in the pot, but then have a switch / circuit so that you could cut it's power draw down to 2400w for a 10A circuit? ie - if its on a 15/20A circuit, switch is one way, 10A the switch is another way.


----------



## Edak

lael said:


> hehe  well, here's hoping!
> 
> ok - cool - I'll start looking for a tray or similar that can serve as my bottom plate. I guess it still needs to be strong enough to hold the grain and water when you lift - so prob still needs to be quite strong? Have you done anything to baffle the water flow from the skin fitting to the grain? or is just having a small space with water there enough? I guess its impossible to tell whether you have even flow through the grain bed once it's all in the malt pipe.


If it is stainless then it should be strong enough. I think that the pressure would be close to even across the bottom before the plate and mesh. How fast does a water pressure wave propagate?




lael said:


> Hi,
> 
> So... slowly assembling all my pieces. Think I still need to get silicone hose for the malt pipe seal and some for wort transfer. is 3/8 the right ID for the malt pipe seal? 3mm wall thickness?
> 
> I also need to start cutting the stainless - any suggestions on how to cut the bottom of the malt pipe pot out? I also got some stainless plate for the upper and lower filter - again - any suggestions on cutting technique would be helpful.
> 
> Lastly - I'm not sure if this is possible, but would it be possible / anyone know of a way to put in a 4KW heater or similar in the pot, but then have a switch / circuit so that you could cut it's power draw down to 2400w for a 10A circuit? ie - if its on a 15/20A circuit, switch is one way, 10A the switch is another way.


The hose sounds like the right one, as long as it is the soft silicone hose. I used an angle grinder to cut the base out of the pot, faster than a dremel (which I tried), just mark where you want to cut and cut away, use a metal (stainless) cutting disc to cut and a flap disc to clean it up. 

There is no method for converting a 20A element to a 10A element...


----------



## lael

Edak said:


> If it is stainless then it should be strong enough. I think that the pressure would be close to even across the bottom before the plate and mesh. How fast does a water pressure wave propagate?
> 
> 
> 
> The hose sounds like the right one, as long as it is the soft silicone hose. I used an angle grinder to cut the base out of the pot, faster than a dremel (which I tried), just mark where you want to cut and cut away, use a metal (stainless) cutting disc to cut and a flap disc to clean it up.
> 
> There is no method for converting a 20A element to a 10A element...


excellent - thanks for your advice! How did you make sure it was circular - go round and round until you got through? or cut straightish lines through and then clean up later? Any recommendations on how fine / coarse a flap disc to get?

I haven't worked with stainless before, but have heard it is quite a tough material. Any recommendations? How long did it take to cut your circle out?


----------



## angus_grant

So I had a brain fart in my Brewton thread. I have been planning to use a 9" false bottom for the bottom filter in my malt pipe. And then I suddenly realised that the top of the Big W pot is 30cm which is 12". So perhaps a 12" false bottom could be the top filter plate. I've still got to check whether the false bottom would cover the malt pipe, etc, etc...

The loss of volume in the malt pipe due to the domed bottom filter would be accounted for in the domed top filter.....

Any reason not to use false bottoms besides ignoring the whole Braumiser theme and spending some $$$'s..... Be about $100 for two false bottoms....


----------



## bigbanko

angus_grant said:


> So I had a brain fart in my Brewton thread. I have been planning to use a 9" false bottom for the bottom filter in my malt pipe. And then I suddenly realised that the top of the Big W pot is 30cm which is 12". So perhaps a 12" false bottom could be the top filter plate. I've still got to check whether the false bottom would cover the malt pipe, etc, etc...
> 
> The loss of volume in the malt pipe due to the domed bottom filter would be accounted for in the domed top filter.....
> 
> Any reason not to use false bottoms besides ignoring the whole Braumiser theme and spending some $$$'s..... Be about $100 for two false bottoms....


I used a false bottom for both the upper and lower filter plate. They do the job pretty well and I have done a few brews with them now.

The only downfall I see to the domed shape is the grain fills inside the dome and the wort takes the path of least resistance which is up the sides of the malt pipe. I get around this by stopping the mash once or twice and giving it a stir.

One benefit of the domed false bottoms is they are very strong and could handle a lot of pump pressure without bending and they can be trimmed to size with a pair of tin snips.

Get the ones with 2mm holes and you don't need and mesh screens

Cheers


----------



## lael

So I starting cutting up some stainless plate and the Big W malt pipe on the weekend. Used a diamond cutting tool on the angle grinder. (Not a bunnings one - one from a fibreglass supply shop - ymmv) cut hot, but beautifully. Quite simple. Round and Round and easy enough. Still need to clean it up with the flapdisc. malt pipe + upper and lower plates fit - I still need to cut out the holes in the plates - any recommendations on whether to go for slits as per Steve's design or drill a bunch of holes? (pretend perf) Planning on using stainless mesh on upper and lower... the upper plate was a little too small (forgot the top is 30.5 rather than 30!!!) so plan on using a seal around the top plate to prevent grain leakage - any suggestions? (thinking silicon hose at this point)

I'm thinking about getting a 2nd BigW pot to extend the height to 35cm ala PeteQ's design - which should allow a 1070 in a 20L batch from my calculations on the spreadsheet. (btw - there is an error with how it calculates sparge water - I'll fix it soon and re-post).

Is 3/8" thick OD silicon hose the goods for the malt pipe seal?

And was thinking a 2400w tobins element and an additional ots element from them for the boil. Any comments? / ideas?

oh - finally - I got some three way valves from china - they look pretty good - is there any reason why you wouldn't drain from the bulkhead on the outside edge of the pot rather than a bulkhead going through the side of the pot and a pickup?


----------



## lael

Thinking about this for the plumbing. Allows whirlpooling (run outside the pot and back through top) and draining through the same valve. Any comments on whether it is a good / bad idea? - I know it means i am draining through the pump - but have no idea if that could cause issues - any thoughts?

Thanks!


----------



## Davethebrewer

Hi Lael,
Looks like it would work ok as long as you can get it all screwed together short enough.
Probably a bit late seeing as you have the valves but a 3 way valve might have worked well with that layout in place of the tee and the two valves ??
Cheers
Dave


----------



## lael

Davethebrewer said:


> Hi Lael,
> Looks like it would work ok as long as you can get it all screwed together short enough.
> Probably a bit late seeing as you have the valves but a 3 way valve might have worked well with that layout in place of the tee and the two valves ??
> Cheers
> Dave


yeah, I actually got one...and then found out that you can't control flow with a 3 way....  it's either open or closed. I thought I would prob want to be able to control the pump flow.


----------



## lukec

Just some updated pic of my rig. Using Nev's Hermit controller as i am electrically useless. Pumped out about 15 brews on this so far and basically have it down pat.
Luke :drinks:


----------



## matho

looks good luke, I apologise for not being able to do what I said I would but life sometimes throws you a curve ball.

cheers steve


----------



## lukec

matho said:


> looks good luke, I apologise for not being able to do what I said I would but life sometimes throws you a curve ball.
> 
> cheers steve


Hey Matho,

You have done more than enough with advise and help along the way. Completely understand about the curveballs. Ive had my share aswell.
Happy Brewing

Luke


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

lukec said:


> Just some updated pic of my rig. Using Nev's Hermit controller as i am electrically useless. Pumped out about 15 brews on this so far and basically have it down pat.
> Luke :drinks:


Nice job Luke, looks like the Herm-it was a success. What is the screen for ?
Do you use it to boil or bypass ?
Nev


----------



## mattieharding

Where did you get your element from mate?


----------



## lukec

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Nice job Luke, looks like the Herm-it was a success. What is the screen for ?
> Do you use it to boil or bypass ?
> Nev


Use iPad with beersmith 2 for all the timers.

Mattiharding

Element is from Thermal products in Thomastown


----------



## pat_00

Hi luke, is it made out of an old keg?

I'm kinda thinking of going down this route, if kegs work ok it'll save me butchering a brand new pot.


----------



## lukec

pat_00 said:


> Hi luke, is it made out of an old keg?
> 
> I'm kinda thinking of going down this route, if kegs work ok it'll save me butchering a brand new pot.


Hey Pat,

Yeah 50l legally purchased keg. 20l big-w pot and a Gryphon Brewing Controller. If you like pm me and I'll email you some more specific photos and details.

Luke

P.S currently building one for a mate aswell.


----------



## BEC26

lukec said:


> If you like pm me and I'll email you some more specific photos and details.



Maybe post them here as well . . .others will be interested . ..

Cheers


----------



## pat_00

Started purchasing bits for my brauthingo.

I have a legally acquired keg I will be butchering next weekend.

Going with the 19l bigw malt pipe, and have ordered that magma grill plate from whitworths, along with some skin fittings. Got some SS allthread and bolts/nuts/washers on the way.

I still have to sort out the element and the bottom filter/seal. I have been in touch with a crowd for the element, just need to finalise the length I need. For the bottom seal I will try the split heavy duty silicon hose from KK. Hopefully it will work OK on the bottom of the keg.

Will be taking lots of pics, and I plan to post them in this thread.


----------



## Edak

Nice Pat, well you are well on the way to get your system built!

Can't wait to see the pics.


----------



## lukec

Hey edak,


How yours rolling along, been following since you started and interested to see how your going with it. . We still have to have a beer and either coldstream or Hargreaves and talk some bullocks. Hargreaves ESB is magnificent.


----------



## Edak

Hey Luke, 

My system is still going strong and now with upgraded storage and kegging will get more of a workout too 

Oh boy can I talk bullocks! It's been really difficult for me to get away but I still am holding onto that invitation down to the valley  I agree their ESB is great, I bet even more so fresh from the brewery.

I have one of the other members coming to check out the system next week some time (still pending) so it will be nice to get their opinions first hand.

Having had a look at your photos earlier, what are you using for your sparge?


----------



## lael

Just finished my build! Woohoo! brewed for the first time starting late last night - that was a mistake! 5am finish for first all grain brew. lol. Wondered why the the immersion chiller had stopped dropping the temps at 40C at 3am... then realised I'd turned the heating element on. nice. tired = mistakes. (I'd switched to manual for whirlpooling).

How long does is it normally take everyone from start to finish on their BrauClone?


----------



## lael

Posting this here for comment from others (was asked on another thread). Judanero is going to build a system and can get custom pot sizes. The attached spreadsheet is my ideal sizing I would do if I could do custom pot sizes. Any comments/recommendations for him?

(I've also fixed some issues in the spreadsheet and added some more comments on what column is what). 

View attachment Judanero's Braumiser_Volume_ScenarioTester.xls


----------



## Edak

From start to finish, start being getting my equipment out and finish being everything cleaned and back in the cave it takes me about 6 hours. This does include multiple steps in the mash and full chilling, transferring, aerating and pitching.

Could I reduce the time? Probably but not by much, it depends on how many steps involved....


----------



## lael

Edak said:


> From start to finish, start being getting my equipment out and finish being everything cleaned and back in the cave it takes me about 6 hours. This does include multiple steps in the mash and full chilling, transferring, aerating and pitching.
> 
> Could I reduce the time? Probably but not by much, it depends on how many steps involved....


Thanks! I think it probably took a total of about 7 if you don't include accidentally programming the mash-in for 90 minutes!! ( I thought they were timed the same as hop additions lol). I reprogrammed it after about 40 mins. Oh, and the pump went to a pump rest at the start of the boil, but was still pumping. was a little strange. PeteQ told me there is a fix for that in the code, I need to reflash the new updated code. I think the link in matho's signature is to an old version and the new one is being updated through github?

So essentially, plan a 7hr process to allow for errors, and all should be good. (That's a little more than the 4 I had allowed for  ) I'm also going to get a lid to ramp faster in mashing. Has your insulation made much difference to ramp speeds etc?


----------



## lael

I want to use the braumiser for sous vide for 48hrs for ribs. Is manual for 48 hrs ok? or would it be worth modifying the program to incorporate pump breaks? Can the SSR / Heatsink handle this length of time?


----------



## Edak

It depends on the pump you have, and whether it is a good quality one...

Personally I would try it if I hadn't already built myself a sous-vide using bigw pot (sans pump but I use an aquarium bubbler to circulate water around).

I would change the code to allow me to sous-vide the way I want to do it...

SSR is fine, 48 hrs is a long time for ribs but I prefer to smoke my ribs...


----------



## lael

I have one of the kaixin pumps. Seems to be pretty bullet proof from feedback so far, but I haven't heard of anyone on ahb running them continously for that long.

http://www.cuisinetechnology.com/blog/recipe-sous-vide/sous-vide-beef-short-ribs/ is the recipe. 48 hrs does sound like a long time. Thinking of smoking for 30mins, then into the sous vide. Alternate is liquid smoke in the bag.

Looking at the code now  What would you want it to do for sous vide? I was just thinking have a set temp, and give the pump a break every now and then.


----------



## lael

ok, think I've got it working ok. I don't fully understand how matho has written to the eeprom, so I don't think auto recovery works, but everything else seems to. About to test it!


----------



## Edak

Good luck lael.

How did it go? Start OK?


----------



## lael

Went great! The PID that matho has used is awesome. Holds temps at about a variance of 1/4 of a degree. Plenty accurate!

I wasn't really watching it, but caught it for one of the pump breaks. countdown for pump break worked nicely (just minutes), though i realised it wasn't showing the current temp during the pump break. So I might change that.

I'll need to go through and clean up the code now, as it was a cut / paste figure it out job (first time coding in arduino). I know you didn't use matho's code, but do you know if he has a more heavily commented version of the code? There are some things it would be good to have more info on. I realised when I was running it that it would be nice to still have manual overrides for the pump and element. I'm not sure how hard that will be - might work forwards from the manual program and modify it.

Now to stick some food in there and cook with it!


----------



## suchidog

It may be somewhere deep in this thread but has anyone (lazy like me) used a birko/crown urn and hooked up matho's controller and a pump??


----------



## Sam England

lael said:


> I want to use the braumiser for sous vide for 48hrs for ribs. Is manual for 48 hrs ok? or would it be worth modifying the program to incorporate pump breaks? Can the SSR / Heatsink handle this length of time?


Lael, I've used mine for sous vide quite a few times now and after the first time I didn't even worry about the pump after the meat got to temperature. In mine I've got elements spread fairly evenly across the base so I just monitored the temps in the keg and found that they were pretty consistent given the thermals and good insulation. I do sit a grill above the element though to make sure the pouches don't rest directly on the elements. I've only done ribs for 24hrs once, but the info I've got is 24-72hrs at 80deg from memory so you're not far off the mark. The 2" thick steaks have been awesome cooked medium rare (56.5deg for 5 hours) all the way through and slapped on the BBQ grill for 45 seconds per side. Great for parties as you can rip them out whenever you need them. The sous vide is the only plus side from brewing according to my other half!! You can also do some pretty good soft eggs.
Cheers,
BB


----------



## lael

Sounds great! did you use vacuum bags? or just ziploc immersed in water? I ran it for about 5 hours last night without a hitch. Might try food sometime next week 

How have you insulated your pot?


----------



## Sam England

I've got a couple of camping mats wrapped around it and a piece cut to fit the lid as well. I also wrapped it in a blanket for the longer heating runs to trap in as much heat as possible. I've got a vac sealer for my hops, so I've been able to justify that purchase to the other half as well now. My sealer only works dry so I can't do any wet marinades, but just seasoning the steaks with a bit of salt and pepper, a crushed clove of garlic, sprig of thyme and rosemary hits the spot. A mate of mine uses the ziplock bags and has also just used multiple layers of glad wrap so I think you'll be fine. Just make sure ;you get all of the air out to stop it expanding and bursting the bags open.


----------



## lael

nice - how much difference does the camping mat make? deciding whether / how much to add. Guess the first thing is to calculate ramp times and boil off rates and establish a base line.


----------



## abbottdk

I have been working on my clone for the past 2 months and although I have made several batches I am not at a stage where I would walk away and be confident that I will not get a stuck mash or a fountain. After hrs of research here it appears my problem is due to using 5.5 kg of grain in a 19l malt pipe that has a 250 mm dia ( had it made at work from some old st tube). It appears that although the total grain/water ratio is important so is the grain bed depth. I have now purchased a big-w pot to re arrange the system. I use a different bottom sealing method instead of trying to sea like the braumeister I have a 19mm tube on the inlet pipe in the boiler that slides in a 19mm socket the fit is quite snug and works well. The downside is that a false bottom is needed inside and this reduces the volume for the fluidised grain by a couple of litres.
I'm intersted to hear from brewers who are using the 300mm dia big W pot on what is the maximum grain they can put in and the size holes being used on the top plate. Is it necessary to use the fine mesh like the Braumeister which blocks quickly or is it OK for the fines like to pass through 2mm holes?
Doug


----------



## mattieharding

Looking at building a braumeister clone, would one of ross's 70lt pots be good for the outer pot.


----------



## Sam England

@barrel21 - I've got the same setup as you and I've fitted 6.1kg into the Big W pot with no real issues. I did have to run the pump to half fill the malt pipe with water to give enough water to mix it in thoroughly and remove the risk of clumping. I use an old keg as the outer and mash in with 23L in my system. I've put my pump pickup higher than my elements to make sure it never runs dry. I'm using a 1mm voile across a cut down keg lid for both top and bottom plates with no issues to date. There are some pics in the Blue Baggers gallery section if you're interested.

@mattieharding - two of my mates have used these pots for their systems. Their only limitation is that you need to mash in with more water as you need to keep the elements covered. Not a biggie though.


----------



## abbottdk

Blue Baggers thanks for the feed back.
It is good to know the Big W pot should work without an issue as I am also using a 50lt keg as the boiler as well. I have not used the pot as my existing system uses a 250mm pot as the malt tube and I think this has been my problem. a 300 mm pot gives 50% more surface area and therefore a 50% lower bed depth. I will retry 1mm mesh with the larger diameter and see if my problem was the small surface area.


----------



## lael

barrel21 said:


> Blue Baggers thanks for the feed back.
> It is good to know the Big W pot should work without an issue as I am also using a 50lt keg as the boiler as well. I have not used the pot as my existing system uses a 250mm pot as the malt tube and I think this has been my problem. a 300 mm pot gives 50% more surface area and therefore a 50% lower bed depth. I will retry 1mm mesh with the larger diameter and see if my problem was the small surface area.


I would be surprised if the issue is the grain bed being too thick. The 50L braumeister uses an appx 35cm thick Grain bed. 25cm diameter means it is 40cm tall to get 19L. Which pump are you using? and what are you using for the top and bottom filters? I would think that being a smaller surface area your water vcelocity through the grain bed will be higher than for a 35cm diameter pot, which would be more likely to get wort fountains I think - so maybe try flow control using a ball valve if you aren't already?

What is your mash-in procedure / method?


----------



## abbottdk

I have tried a lot of different combinations. I first started with the little brown pump which did not give enough flow, so I added in another 12vdc pump rated at 10l/min which appeared to be OK but the last batch on the weekend used a 240v mag pump. I have tried using voile, 1mm st steel flyscreen but the fine screen blocks and flow stops. I remove the screen wash and we are back in business. I do have a valve on the pump discharge and I did throttle this at the start of the fountain, but then have to open to full as the screen blinds.
The JW Ale I have been using appears to a have a lot of root material (dry) on the grain and it is this fine material that appears to foul the fine screen. Next batch I will try and use my pilsner malt and see if it is cleaner.
I mash in at typically 67 deg by starting the pump and filling the malt tube and I then start tipping the grain in slowly, the water level drops so I start the pump to re-dilute and mix more grain in and break up any clumps. I do this typically three times.
It can't be the pump as I have gone from a little brown pump to a 240 v mag pump and not fixed the problem. If it is not surface area related then it must be the quality of the malt. The material that blinds the filter looks like either the dry shoot or roots


----------



## lael

I would be the first person to tell you I am not an expert on All Grain, or the braumiser. I've only done 1 brew on mine so far. It went smoothly, but not sure about the ferment just yet. ( I had some serious overflow through the airlock cause I didn't leave enough headspace and tastings are a little zingy).

That said - I think I was reading something the other day and someone mentioned that you need to mash in below 50C as gelatinisation occurs at (from memory) around 65, which means you don't get a good mix in and hydration of the grain? (someone confirm / deny this? ). The other thing I would be looking at is your crush. From what i have read most people don't go below between 1.2mm and 1.4mm depending on their mill performance. Too much flour/powder might cause the problems you are describing?


----------



## dicko

mattieharding said:


> Looking at building a braumeister clone, would one of ross's 70lt pots be good for the outer pot.


I dont think you can buy one of the pots from Ross that has not got the hole allready drilled in the side. If the hole suits your design then go for it.

Cheers


----------



## Edak

Hey barrel!, voile is too fine so I would put a splatter guard in its place.


----------



## abbottdk

Lael - You maybe onto something with the crush. I am using a JSP Malt mill that is not adjustable after checking with the feeler gauges I am at 1.0mm.
I am an experienced mash brewer (>50 batches) and have used this mill for a 3V & BIAB (using fine voile) without a problem and have always added the grain at the mash in temp. Maybe this can not be done for the braumeister. It will be interesting to hear what other brewers are doing


----------



## Sam England

My mate and I have had no issues with the voille to date (10-15 brews between us). As mentioned earlier, it's not the really fine voile you use for BIABíng, but a coarser grade with squares just under 1mm square. I've got my mill set on 1mm from my BIAB days and haven't had any issues with the little brown pump pushing the wort through or getting gushers. Your issue is possibly due to the support plate not having enough flow area behind your screen which may rule out the voille option. The pic below is what I'm using for my top plate with the voille held on with a drawstring. Do you have any pics of your setup or from a brew day?





I tend to mash in at around 40deg as the malt bill doesn't tend to clump up as much. I've been doing a protein rest on the way up to the sacch rest probably because I can now, rather than finding I actually need it.
Good luck with your rig. I had a few teething issues as well and it's definitely worth it once you get them sorted out.


----------



## abbottdk

As I did not have pictures I thought I would mash 5 kg today and see what effect the recommendations had on the flow rate as well as take some pictures. I heated the water to 40 deg and then mashed in I had good flow at the start which then dies down, if you stop the pump and let the level fall and then restart the flow is good again until the bed compacts. I tried this with the 2 mm mesh, 1mm mesh and also the 1mm flyscreen and none would allow a consistent flow where you could walk away. The only way I could get a consistent flow was to remove the fine altogether and only use the slotted plate (slots = 25mm x 2.2mm) but this allows fines to pass through and the plate is also a bit smaller than the opening and this is why you see some grain coming through.
With any of the fine mesh in their was temp difference from top to bottom of 10-20 deg depending on flow. (water trials have 3 deg)
I included a plastic malt tube which was my original but only trialled using 3.5kg malt and it flowed OK with the little brown pump , the reason I tried to upgrade was that it was difficult to clip the lid on even so the overflow was uneven.
Conclusions:

mashing in at 40 deg eliminated plate blockages
low flow is not due to fine screen
current bed depth 300mm
turning the pump off and then on frees the bed and flow commences again
best result achieved was only on 3.5 kg of grain but was with a 300 mm opening (plastic bucket)
240v pump has a greater flow the the 12vdc but both can only develop a 3-4 metre head and both dead head with a high resistance
I plan to replace this malt tube with the big w pot and install new plates the bed depth will decrease from 300mm to 200 mm and this should be OK as it is working for others.


----------



## lael

fascinating. makes me wonder if that is why the brau has the 10 min pump break built in, to let the grain bed collapse and move so it doesn't get stuck / create too much back pressure. How long does it take for the malt pipe to fill without anything in there and how much flow do you get? I wonder if you are actually having sealing issues at the bottom of the malt pipe, and it only is really clear when you are mashing under pressure. Fluid is finding an easier way out the pot - through the bottom?


----------



## abbottdk

If I was to put a timer on I would have said to reset every 10 mins, but I am not sure that this is what evetone is doing with their clone's but may be necessary with a bed depth greater than 200mm. Athough there may be leakage at the bottom seal I think it is minimal as the clearance is .25-.5 mm. I have done several modification to stop the top plate bending which I don't think would happen if if a large amount was leaking. I suspect reading other threads that I probably have less leakage than the systems using the silicon hose on the bottom. Also I have had a fountain hit the ceiling indicating high pressure under the plate.
I think the optimum system was always have the grain fluidised and not compact on the top plate but allow a good flowarte to ensure max heating, however this is not possible as the upward force causes grain to build on the top plate and continue to build increasing the resistence. I think a larger dia would reduce velocity resulting in a lower grain bed density allowing the fliuid to flow more easily.
Anyway this is only a hypothesis and the proof will be when I have the 300 mm pot working.


----------



## lael

lol, I think a wort fountain hitting the ceiling is a very good sign. What seal at the base are you using? I look forward to hearing how you go.


----------



## abbottdk

It is difficult to see how it works with the st steel malt tube as a plate hides it. I have attached pics of the plastic bucket system that uses the same principle. The clearance is quite fine minimising and leakage. The malt tube has a false floor (not shown) for the grain bed to sit on.


----------



## Sam England

Barrel21,
Great job with the build.

I'm starting to think your pump might be the problem. You mentioned earlier that you thought the LBP was flowing too slowly, but mine only trickles slowly over the top of the pot when running (4L/min at a guess). I think the higher flow rate is probably compacting the malt up against the top plate. Once the flow starts to reduce your pressure is going to spike and compact it even further. You're right in saying that the reduced grain depth of a larger pot will help, but I've made a malt pipe extension and can run over 9kg in the BigW pot diameter which is a lot more in grain depth than what your current setup has. Maybe look at throttling your pump back if possible or putting a bypass that you can regulate to reduce the flow rate. This could be as simple as a couple of holes in your pot beneath the bottom false bottom. You couldn't regulate this, but it would help reduce the maximum pressure reached as well. Just a thought if the larger pot doesn't work.

Cheers,
BB


----------



## lael

Blue Baggers said:


> Barrel21,
> Great job with the build.
> 
> I'm starting to think your pump might be the problem. You mentioned earlier that you thought the LBP was flowing too slowly, but mine only trickles slowly over the top of the pot when running (4L/min at a guess). I think the higher flow rate is probably compacting the malt up against the top plate. Once the flow starts to reduce your pressure is going to spike and compact it even further. You're right in saying that the reduced grain depth of a larger pot will help, but I've made a malt pipe extension and can run over 9kg in the BigW pot diameter which is a lot more in grain depth than what your current setup has. Maybe look at throttling your pump back if possible or putting a bypass that you can regulate to reduce the flow rate. This could be as simple as a couple of holes in your pot beneath the bottom false bottom. You couldn't regulate this, but it would help reduce the maximum pressure reached as well. Just a thought if the larger pot doesn't work.
> 
> Cheers,
> BB


Hey Blue Baggers,

how did you extend your BigW malt pipe? I'm thinking about doing the same thing.


----------



## Sam England

Evening Lael,

I basically cut the bottom out of a second pot and pushed the two together. I've got a couple of holes that I use to support the top plate in my design which I then drilled out again through the second pot when they were together and used 4 short M6 bolts to hold them together. You can probably get the gist of it in the image below even though the bolts aren't shown. I picked up an extra 80mm with the design shown. I would have liked more, but the taper on the pots limits this. There were two problems with the design:
1) I can't fit my lid on the keg by about 10mm when it's in use, and 2) the grain bed compacts and doesn't drain quickly enough when sparging. I got around this by pausing the unit, draining the first runnings into a bucket and then adding the sparge water to the keg and circulating it with the pump back through the mash in two lots. I haven't maxxed out the grain bill yet, but I can get just over 6kg in the standard pipe and I managed 25L of 1.070 (7kg grain) into the fermenter with a 60min boil with the larger pipe. I think I could probably go 8kg of grain, but I don't tend to brew too many big beers. I have considered parti-gyle brewing and running off the first runnings to make plus 1.10 beers and making a lower SG second brew with the spargings, but haven't tried this either yet. I actually sparge all my brews with the pump this way now as I've found it doesn't take much longer, I pick up a few extra points on mash efficiency and have an accurate preboil SG and starting volume so I can adjust the boil and hops if required.


----------



## Blackbeer&rum

hello all,

Have just completed reading this entire post and would like to commend all for the free will to share infomation, im new to brewing and the has given me a good start to this intresting hobby and buying a beer will soon be a thing of the past.

just got to get some parts and hope to work out the control system Matho shows in his posts, good at Tig welding but electronics ummmmmm not so good!

once again thanks to all.


----------



## bonj

Blackbeer&rum said:


> hello all,
> 
> Have just completed reading this entire post and would like to commend all for the free will to share infomation, im new to brewing and the has given me a good start to this intresting hobby and buying a beer will soon be a thing of the past.
> 
> just got to get some parts and hope to work out the control system Matho shows in his posts, good at Tig welding but electronics ummmmmm not so good!
> 
> once again thanks to all.


Here's a link to the controller thread: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/59563-i-want-mathos-controler/page-1

I have a number of bonjuino kits ready to ship, but they do need assembly. I can pre-program the chip with the latest code before they ship. On top of that, you will need matho's shield. A post in that thread will tell you if anyone currently has any spare. Failing that, it is extremely easy, and relatively cheap to have a batch of 10 made up (approximately AUD$35 delivered). You will also need to buy the parts and assemble it, along with the project case and power supply.... this thread contains a link somewhere to the instructions and parts list. If you have trouble, there are plenty of folks on here that will be willing to help you out.


----------



## Blackbeer&rum

Yes please would love two kits please, all programmed. 

Many thanks


----------



## kpaxy444

yes please I would like a kit ,
Cheers.


----------



## bonj

Blackbeer&rum and kpaxy44,

Here is a link to the bonjuino kit page. All the information about the bonjuino is on there. Make sure you are aware that this is a kit and requires assembly. Also be aware that it is only part of the complete controller and other parts are required.

Bonjuino


----------



## Blackbeer&rum

just payed for two units Bonj, many thanks champ will supply picks as the build takes place


----------



## bonj

Thanks Blackbeer&rum.

Anyone who has orderedthrough the above link, can you please PM me so I can match AHB usernames to orders, thanks


----------



## Blackbeer&rum

just a thought, everyone is going on about the thickness of s/steel mesh for the top of the mash pot and how to hold it from moving and twisting, what about welding a ring on top of the mesh and then the cross braces would stop all movement?

sorry if I'm posting out of order but was just my thought

Question, how do you post i picture, i drew up on cad a pic showing this??


----------



## Malted

Blackbeer&rum said:


> just a thought, everyone is going on about the thickness of s/steel mesh for the top of the mash pot and how to hold it from moving and twisting, what about welding a ring on top of the mesh and then the cross braces would stop all movement?
> 
> sorry if I'm posting out of order but was just my thought
> 
> Question, how do you post i picture, i drew up on cad a pic showing this??


Yes quite a few folks have reinforced thin mesh in somewhat of the manner in which you are describing.

One way to attach a picture:
More reply options.
Attach files. Browse etc.
Attach this file.
Add to post.

Voila.


----------



## Blackbeer&rum

thx champ


----------



## abbottdk

Update on the progress of my new BigW pot. Ran a brew yesterday and all went very well. I did need to throttle the flow on my pump back to avoid the 3 mm top support plate bending. I did stop the pump every 15-30 mins to release the bed and stirred the bed three times. Efficiency was about 78%.
Temperature difference from the top to the bottom during the ramps was 0.5 - 1.0 deg.
Now as all is good I can start to assemble "Matho's controller" to make it automatic


----------



## Blackbeer&rum

barrel21 said:


> Update on the progress of my new BigW pot. Ran a brew yesterday and all went very well. I did need to throttle the flow on my pump back to avoid the 3 mm top support plate bending. I did stop the pump every 15-30 mins to release the bed and stirred the bed three times. Efficiency was about 78%.
> Temperature difference from the top to the bottom during the ramps was 0.5 - 1.0 deg.
> Now as all is good I can start to assemble "Matho's controller" to make it automatic


Ha barrel21 

please if you don't mind sharing, what pot size you use in the keg can system? I'm kind of in the process of doing a similar system, was toying with the idea of using a corny keg for the mush tun.


----------



## abbottdk

It is a 19 litre BigW pot inside a 50 lt CUB keg


----------



## Blackbeer&rum

Cheers,


----------



## matho

EEprom map for the brauduino for anyone how is interested


View attachment brewmasta_eeprom_map.xls


cheers steve


----------



## dmac80

barrel21 said:


> It is a 19 litre BigW pot inside a 50 lt CUB keg


I went the same way as you, the domed base on the keg allowed me to add a small false bottom (hop screen) underneath the malt pipe.

Works a treat.

Cheers


----------



## matho

Hey Barrel those Pics look great.

I also want to say sorry to all those who have PM'ed me lately and have got a slow reply, my life has taken a bit of a turn and I haven't got the time I use to have.

cheers steve


----------



## jimmyfozzers

Just getting together bits for my build and trying to find a suitable 50l pot/keg. What do you guys think about this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-COMMERCIAL-50L-STAINLESS-STEEL-STOCK-POT-SAUCEPAN/350795339309 ? Would the aluminium 'sandwich' base present a problem for drilling etc?

P.S. Matho - absolutely no apologies needed. You have gone above and beyond for us AHB members. I for one would never have even considered this kind of build if it weren't for your input. Wishing you all the best mate.


----------



## lael

ppl have complained about handyimports in the past. Hard to tell how much of an issue it was / wasn't. Do a search, read up and make up your own mind. Finding pots is hard. At that price I would be tempted to go craftbrewer...


----------



## brewologist

jimmyfozzers said:


> Just getting together bits for my build and trying to find a suitable 50l pot/keg. What do you guys think about this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-COMMERCIAL-50L-STAINLESS-STEEL-STOCK-POT-SAUCEPAN/350795339309 ? Would the aluminium 'sandwich' base present a problem for drilling etc


I have two Handy Imports pots. A 71L and 32L. These are going to be used on my braumiser build.

I have used the 71L pot for close to a year and have mashed over 100 kilos of grain through it. I have heard of one person getting a dud but no probs for me.

I was at a catering wholesaler the other day buying some pot glasses. The stainless pots they had were more expensive but thinner than mine and made in Vietnam. 

I can't see you would have a problem drilling the base.


----------



## CosmicBertie

I have two HandyImport pots, a 35L and a 50L. The only issue was a slight ding in the 50L one. But its only cosmetic. The rivets for the handles were water-tight too.

I'm currently considering drilling the bottom of the pot too! :unsure:


----------



## jimmyfozzers

Hmmm...decisions decisions! Just been quoted $125 inc delivery for a keggle pre-drilled with a ball valve. Can't make up my mind!


----------



## horse beer

Hello!

I would like to ask for a detailed part list of exactly what i need to prepare 50 liters of a brewer system?

Thank you for your help.


----------



## Edak

Hi Horse, 

I see that as your first post you have asked a blunt question which you would have the answer to if you read the thread.

Given your location it would be impossible for us to give you an exact list of parts because it mostly depends on what is available locally.

For example, people use craftbrewers 70L pot but I wouldn't think that you would ship that to Hungary, so you need to read through and gauge what you need for yourself.


----------



## horse beer

Hi,

I thought of a fund or a 50-liter stainless steel pot or a 50-liter stainless steel beer keg.
50 l pot: http://olaszsped.com...products_id=481
or
50 l beer keg: http://aprod.hu/hird...-is-IDTCG5.html


The other necessary part of the order from Ebay.

These should me a detailed list of ingredients if you have drawings ...

The _BrauMiser Build Part 1.pdf_ and _BrauMiser Build Part 2.pdf_ have got in but did not find assembly drawings.


----------



## Edak

Neither will let you get 50 output.... You need a much bigger pot than that for a 50L system...

I have a 50L outer pot and I get 23L brews out of it.


----------



## horse beer

I wrote (bad) a 50 liter (netto 22-23 liter beer) gross system should be detailed parts list.

For example, i use a 50-liter pot, etc.. ...

Approximately how much (including shipping costs) are only raw material cost?


----------



## aamcle

Quick question if you don't mind.

I've read through a horde of posts on this thread but still can't get what remains of my head around how to scale the system up and down.

How much grain can I get into a malt pipe that has 7.8 litres between the filters? That's about as big a pipe as I can get in my current urn.

What sizes of outer pot and malt pipe would I need to make:-

15 litre batches?

I read (above) that I would need a 50 litre outer to make 23 litre batches what volume would the malt pipe need to be?

Thanks for your patience.

ATB. Aamcle


----------



## horse beer

Use it to download: The Braumiser build.zip is in -> Braumiser_Volume_Calculations.xls


----------



## aamcle

I've looked through them but I'm still unsure, it seems that the default is that 1 kg of crushed grain (dry) will occupy a volume of 3 litre giving a bulk packing density of 0.33.
The same 1 kg of grain displaces 0.65 litres of water, OK I understand that the water fills the spaces between the grains so the volume of water displaced is a lot less than the dry volume of the grain.

So why is the total displacement 3.65 when the total displacement of water should be 0.65 x grain bill kg?

There seem to be two things going on-

How much grain can fit in the malt pipe = (malt pipe volume)/3 kg.
And
How much water is displaced by the grain = 0.65 x grain bill L. Up to to the maximum grain the pipe will hold.

So as you see my head has still not caput up with the spread sheet


Aamcle


----------



## matho

the 3l is the liquor to grist ratio ie 3l/kg will need a vessel size of 3.65 l per kg of grain, 3l for the water and 0.65l for the grain. You can't just pack the malt pie full of malt, you need some space for the water to flow thru so it comes down to the liquor to grist ratio or to put it another way water to grain. The average mash is about 3l/kg and I think the braumeister is about the same but I have pushed it down to 2.3l/Kg which seems to be about the limit for these type of systems. If you can get a malt pipe that will give you 3l/kg for most of your beers then it will work well.

cheers steve


----------



## aamcle

Sorted thanks Steve, I need a way bigger kit  

Thanks. Aamcle


----------



## horse beer

Correct, Thx!


----------



## angus_grant

Hey everybody,

Well I'm back on the brau-clone highway after a fairly long break (and 5 or 6 BIABs)

I have ordered a chugger inline pump and was wandering back through the thread to see how people have mounted their pumps. 

And I noticed that no-one has put in a ball valve to choke down flow out of pump if necessary. 

Would one be required?

Thanks,
Angus.


----------



## lael

angus_grant said:


> Hey everybody,
> 
> Well I'm back on the brau-clone highway after a fairly long break (and 5 or 6 BIABs)
> 
> I have ordered a chugger inline pump and was wandering back through the thread to see how people have mounted their pumps.
> 
> And I noticed that no-one has put in a ball valve to choke down flow out of pump if necessary.
> 
> Would one be required?
> 
> Thanks,
> Angus.


I'm pretty sure most I've seen do exactly this - ekad's, PeteQ's, mine, I think big banko's did too. It is needed - otherwise you might get a situation where you crush too fine and you need to stop / reduce flow on your pump to prevent wort fountains / issues.

I did a belgian blonde about two weeks ago in mine - had about 5.7kg in the pot, and it was the first time using a new drill - double crushed 1.4 and then 1.2 as usual, but was running faster than I wanted - more flour, and it was an interesting mash. No major issues, but the pressure was enough that there basically wasn't any flow, and it actually bent the re-inforcing bars back up. My discs are a dish shape from drilling holes in them - I heard a pop - the dome had inverted, and bent the stainless reinforcing bars (bain marie dish holders / dividers) in the process. So... yes, IMO - very much needed. 

The mash finished fine, got a crazy high efficiency out of the grain (something like a 1065 wort) and all was well... not sure now whether I should replace that reinforcing bar or not....


----------



## angus_grant

Yeh, I noticed mathos march pump had no ball valve and actually the Braumeister has no ball valves on the 50L model in the photos quite early in the thread. 

I was going to add a ball valve and was then surprised when I noticed some people (and Spiedel) did not have one.


----------



## Edak

lael said:


> I'm pretty sure most I've seen do exactly this - ekad's, PeteQ's, mine, I think big banko's did too. It is needed - otherwise you might get a situation where you crush too fine and you need to stop / reduce flow on your pump to prevent wort fountains / issues.
> 
> I did a belgian blonde about two weeks ago in mine - had about 5.7kg in the pot, and it was the first time using a new drill - double crushed 1.4 and then 1.2 as usual, but was running faster than I wanted - more flour, and it was an interesting mash. No major issues, but the pressure was enough that there basically wasn't any flow, and it actually bent the re-inforcing bars back up. My discs are a dish shape from drilling holes in them - I heard a pop - the dome had inverted, and bent the stainless reinforcing bars (bain marie dish holders / dividers) in the process. So... yes, IMO - very much needed.
> 
> The mash finished fine, got a crazy high efficiency out of the grain (something like a 1065 wort) and all was well... not sure now whether I should replace that reinforcing bar or not....


Holy bejesus Lael! that's gotta be some intense pressure to bend those bars! I just run my grain through my mill once at 1.2mm, yeah it creates some flour but I haven't yet put 5.7kg in my MP! (I got to 5.6 last brew but I throttled the pump right from the beginning so no problems)

Are you game enough to go for more grain?

Oh and yeah I do use a ball valve too.


----------



## angus_grant

lael said:


> I did a belgian blonde about two weeks ago in mine - had about 5.7kg in the pot, and it was the first time using a new drill - double crushed 1.4 and then 1.2 as usual, but was running faster than I wanted - more flour, and it was an interesting mash. No major issues, but the pressure was enough that there basically wasn't any flow, and it actually bent the re-inforcing bars back up. My discs are a dish shape from drilling holes in them - I heard a pop - the dome had inverted, and bent the stainless reinforcing bars (bain marie dish holders / dividers) in the process. So... yes, IMO - very much needed.


 :blink: :blink:
Ball valve it is!!!


----------



## lael

Edak said:


> Holy bejesus Lael! that's gotta be some intense pressure to bend those bars! I just run my grain through my mill once at 1.2mm, yeah it creates some flour but I haven't yet put 5.7kg in my MP! (I got to 5.6 last brew but I throttled the pump right from the beginning so no problems)
> 
> Are you game enough to go for more grain?
> 
> Oh and yeah I do use a ball valve too.


Yeah, we will see how we go once I get the crush right.... I paused before putting it in and was like... that is going to cause issues... but went ahead anyway  I did turn it down from the start, but also closed and opened the ball valve a few times to get the grain bed to re-settle. Funnily enough - I don't think I will need to put much more in there. efficiency is so good that I shouldn't need to go above 5.7kg grain. Which is about a 3.3L (.65L/kg offset+ 2.6L/kg grain fluidisation) amount anyway... I might try 6kg next run just for kicks as long as I get a good (more coarse) crush and see how it goes.... I think with less flour it should be fine. 90 min mash seems to render a good conversion / efficiency for me either way.

oh - that is with the kaixin pump too... best value pump ever. plenty of pressure and seems to handle heat just fine.


----------



## Edak

Hey Lael, the 3.3l you quote is interesting. Aren't you using a bigw pot? The volume that counts is what is between the plates, which should be less than 19L. Mine is closer to 16.5L.
Just saying...


----------



## lael

yes, yes it is.... an interesting point. Looking at my spreadsheet - it looks like my calculations end up at about 15L for the malt pipe grain bed volume. Which is pushing the limits of the system. 5.7kg = 2.64L fluidisation incl. displacement. No wonder it was struggling. Wonder what 6Kg would do... probably destroy efficiency at the least. Honestly - it required so much nursing last time around that I wouldn't want to go much further. It just ruins your ability to walk away and let it do it's thing. Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## Edak

Any time buddy, you know that I am happy to help and point out (sometimes useless) facts.


----------



## horse beer

Right.

I was looking at home can be purchased in various sizes of stainless pots but 40 or too liters is big enough price.

I try a device, which is the of 20 liters of brewing can produce.
(The Braumiser build/Braumiser_Volume_Calculations.xls sheet2 page datas correct?)

I need a 20 liters system parts list?

Thank you in advance for your help and patience.
/ sorry for the poor english /


----------



## matho

angus_grant said:


> Hey everybody,
> 
> Well I'm back on the brau-clone highway after a fairly long break (and 5 or 6 BIABs)
> 
> I have ordered a chugger inline pump and was wandering back through the thread to see how people have mounted their pumps.
> 
> And I noticed that no-one has put in a ball valve to choke down flow out of pump if necessary.
> 
> Would one be required?
> 
> Thanks,
> Angus.


Hey Angus,

All my tubing underneath is 3/8" so it naturally adds resistance, I was planning on adding a reduced bore insert if I need it but I didn't. The only problem with a valve is you will have to clean it every now and then. I added a feature to the brauduino that the pump runs in the boil stage up to 95 deg so that the wort in the pipes get sanitised. I still run the original braumiser controller and that is one thing I want to change

cheers steve


----------



## aamcle

Hi All.

I've picked up an odd double walled stainless pot
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/album/1031-aamcle/

And I'm looking for advice as to it's potential for conversion to a Nextgen.

The dimensions are 

Outer pot - 45 cm high by 33cm dia volume 38.5 litres
Inner pot - 39 cm tall by 28 cm dia volume 24 litres.

So it looks like it might be a good candidate for a small build.

But the difference in diameters is only 5cm or a gap of just 2.5 cm around the inner pot.

The question is would it be possible to fit the heating elements into the gap around the inner pot.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Regards. Aamcle


----------



## djar007

Do you mean so that you can circulate liquid through the void ? And pass that liquid over the element. Or are you trying for a concealed type element?


----------



## aamcle

My thought was to separate the two vessels and have the overflow from the malt pipe run down between the malt pipe and the outer vessel then over the heating elements before being drawn into the pump and from there returned to the malt pipe.

A concealed element under malt pipe would solve the space issue, do you know if any one has used one and did it work well?

Would pump need to run as soon as the element was energised and run on for a period after after it was powered off??

ATB. Aamcle


----------



## Edak

You will definitely need the element under the malt pipe due to space, but I have my system programmed just to disable the element when pump is off (except for when boiling). Never thought of turning off element before pump but it's a valid concern I guess.


----------



## angus_grant

Thanks for all the comments about the pumps I guess I didn't look through all 60 ages closely enough to see photos of people's builds with the pumps. It surprised me when I noticed the Braumeister 50L did not have ball valves. I guess they must use 3/8" inch tubing like Matho or have purchased a specific pump with a specific flow rate.

I am thinking I might try and plum in some cam-locks so I can remove the pump and give it a clean easily. Having it totally hard-plumbed in might be a bit of a pain and a barrier to good cleaning routines. h34r: I always re-circulate PBW + hot water through my system when cleaning it but would be nice if it was easy to pull pump out of system and break it down every so often. Like I don't do with my current little brown pump.

I have lots of software mods to do. At the moment my mash control, and boil control are separate forms so I have to put them onto the main form and integrate them. So probably 4 hours work or so


----------



## Malted

It has been said before and I'll say it again. Fitting pumps into your system _could_ use a stainless pipe union like this:






It is sort of hard plumbed and sort of not. No worries about leakage as it is sort of hard plumbed but easy to get out because it isn't exactly hard plumbed. It makes bolting into place and unbolting rather easy. MaleMale, MaleFemale or FemaleFemale is your choice.
Speidel use them on the Braumeister.

EBay have some 304 SS, for example: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NPT-1-2-304-stainless-steel-Malleable-pipe-fitting-Straight-Union-coulping-F-F-/130664787250?pt=AU_Business_Industrial_Farming_Agriculture_Farming_Agriculture_Equipment&hash=item1e6c3a6d32
and specialist stainless shops have them too, for example ProChem: http://www.prochem.com.au/stainless_steel_piping_products/


----------



## Malted




----------



## angus_grant

That looks like a nice compromise between rigidity of hard-mounting and ease of removal with "soft-mounting". Thanks Malted.

And will be easier to install than what I was thinking of.


----------



## lael

Thoroughly recommend the union fittings! I put the on the bottom of both skin fittings; one going onto the pump, and then on the outlet of the pump. Means I can take the whole plumbing section of the Brau off easily, or just the pump. Really happy with flexibility it allows


----------



## Yorg

Forgive me if in these 61 pages this has been answered, but does anyone know what the connectors/sheilding are on the element terminals that come out the bottom of a braumeister?
The photos i've seen are a little obsucure, the terminals look like they are covered in heat shrink or some such, but how would that sort of thing pass electrical standards? So what are they then?
Ta.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Yorg said:


> Forgive me if in these 61 pages this has been answered, but does anyone know what the connectors/sheilding are on the element terminals that come out the bottom of a braumeister?
> The photos i've seen are a little obsucure, the terminals look like they are covered in heat shrink or some such, but how would that sort of thing pass electrical standards? So what are they then?
> Ta.


Some people have done as you say and covered with heat shrink , some have the terminals protrude into the control box.


----------



## angus_grant

My smaller pot with element installed: element wiring protrudes into box on side. The element electrodes are covered in heat shrink from the manufacturer




My brau-clone has pretty much the same setup. Again, the element electrodes are covered in heat shrink from the manufacturer





I can't tell you about the bottom of the braumeister though.


----------



## Dxxxx

Hey everyone, I've just about got all parts necessary to put together my own brauclone but I have one question about the filter plates. My brother in law can cut stainless plates for me which are quite thick and very strong. I use one at the moment as a sort of "false" false bottom to keep the bag off my element in my keggle. My question is, what size holes should I have him make in the plate? I'm not sure what kind of filter material to use either. I see people going with ikea splatter guard mesh, but there is no ikea here, a $2 shop here sells "Stainless Steel" splatter guards which I originally tried in my keggle but it rusted after one use, so I'm not really keen to try that again. Is there any reason I couldn't use some fabric similar to a BIAB bag?


----------



## Edak

Maybe one odd those other major retailers such as Kmart might have better splatter guards. Biab material is also fine for the job, but not as strong.

Photos?


----------



## Cavemanbrew

hello Guys and Girls,

getting my system together now and have a question

What is the best pump to go with????

LBP or March

need to make this decision before i continue!!!


----------



## angus_grant

It's untested as yet but I bought a chugger pump with stainless head from the Aus retailer. Cheaper than March pump and it even includes the mounting bracket in the purchase price.

That's a little gripe I have with the march pump: who is going to buy a pump and then not need to mount it? I suppose you can zip tie it, but really throw the bracket in and bump your price up a little.


----------



## Cavemanbrew

where you get the chugger from?


----------



## angus_grant

http://www.chugger.com.au

New Aus distributor. 

I will be working on the plumbing this weekend. Not sure if I will get the pump plumbed up and working but there are other people on the site who are using the chugger


----------



## PeteQ

Cavemanbrew said:


> hello Guys and Girls,
> 
> getting my system together now and have a question
> 
> What is the best pump to go with????
> 
> LBP or March
> 
> need to make this decision before i continue!!!


I had 2 LBPs burn out on me after 3 brews each, I would highly suggest to steer clear. I have a kaixin pump now which I can highly recommend. Thread - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/67670-kaixin-pumps/

The chugger pumps look the goods with the stainless head though!

Good luck


----------



## Cavemanbrew

cheers


----------



## QldKev

Cavemanbrew said:


> hello Guys and Girls,
> 
> getting my system together now and have a question
> 
> What is the best pump to go with????
> 
> LBP or March
> 
> need to make this decision before i continue!!!


LBP are hit an miss, they work out expensive if you buy one and then end up getting a better pump anyway as you have spent the initial $ on something that is not needed.

March have a long term reliability record; I use one on my 3V. 
Kaixin are a fairly new player to the market but I have not heard of any units playing up; I run one on my 1V (the mp20 model). There are a lot of users on here.
Chugger are the newest to the Australian market and from my understanding are fitted with a different motor to the US version. I like the idea of the stainless head. I'm aware of one unit already failing, but can't find the thread on it to see the outcome.

QldKev


----------



## Cavemanbrew

THX, Qldkev


----------



## Sam England

Dxxxx said:


> Hey everyone, I've just about got all parts necessary to put together my own brauclone but I have one question about the filter plates. My brother in law can cut stainless plates for me which are quite thick and very strong. I use one at the moment as a sort of "false" false bottom to keep the bag off my element in my keggle. My question is, what size holes should I have him make in the plate? I'm not sure what kind of filter material to use either. I see people going with ikea splatter guard mesh, but there is no ikea here, a $2 shop here sells "Stainless Steel" splatter guards which I originally tried in my keggle but it rusted after one use, so I'm not really keen to try that again. Is there any reason I couldn't use some fabric similar to a BIAB bag?


Dxxxx, I use a coarse voile on my clone and haven't had any issues to date after 20 + brews. I support the plate off the outside rim and don't need a hole through the voile which might mean the difference between it working or not. Here's the link to a couple of pics in the gallery. http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/album/957-blue-baggers/ Let me know if you have any questions.
Cheers,
BB


----------



## Cavemanbrew

your elements, what are they (kettle elements), how do you place the malt pipe on , is it over the elements

sorry so many questions


----------



## Sam England

Sorry Cavemanbrew, missed your post. My rig is a bit different in that I push the water up through the spigot in the base of the BigW pot, through a false bottom with voile to spread the flow and then out a top filter plate also covered with voile. I stole a fair few ideas from ArnieW's BrauBushka rig. http://arniew.wordpress.com/ . Seems to work pretty well for me. The elements are from ebay and were around $13 each from memory. I've mentioned it earlier, but to keep the Watt density down I've got 4 x 3kW elements wired in two pairs in parallel to give 3kW but with 4 times the area. I've also wired it with two SSR's so if I ever want to run it on a standard power point I can run it off two different 10A circuits. They're not the easiest elements to clean, but serve their purpose for me and the two other units my mates have built/building.
Cheers,
BB


----------



## Cavemanbrew

Your a champ thanks for the info, i like it and i may steal a couple of ideas from you.

Cave man :chug:


----------



## aamcle

what could I make in this?

I have potentilay two pots to make a malt pipe and outer vessle.

malt pipe - 28 cm diameter 39 cm height aprox 24 litre
main vesstle - 33 cm diameter 45 cm height aprox 38.5 litres.


I should easily be able to get 5 kg of grain in the pipe, could I reasonably expect to do 25 liter into the fermentor?

Atb. aamcle


----------



## Edak

aamcle, I think that you might have a little trouble fitting everything in, especially if you want to put heating element, fittings, temp sensor and tap. The diameters are 5cm apart so you have 2.5cm space around the entire vessel. I have a 19L malt pipe in a 50L pot and let's just say that it's not feeling very spacious in there.

25L into fermenter means that you will need a pre-boil volume of about 33-35L, which means also that you are at the boundary of your outer vessel and will probably experience boil-over.

Get a 50L pot and you should be good to go.

my 2c.


----------



## aamcle

Thanks, still a bit small but getting the bits in would not be a problem with the design I had in mind. 

What do you think of working it MaxiBIAB style and adding water to the fermenter? 

Or what about going for 5US gallons/19 litres? This would give me the chance to do more styles 

I'll try to draw it out in the next day or two and post the drawing so I can get some expert comment, my design might not be feasible.

Thanks again. Aamcle


----------



## aamcle

Playing around with Beersmith I think I would have trouble even if I go for 19 litre batches, I would have just 5 litre ( or so) of space about 6cm to the rim.

oh well there goes another cunning plan....


Aamcle


----------



## angus_grant

Will be putting in a big weekend of fabrication this weekend so have not actually used my malt pipe yet.

I have a 40L outer pot and BIAB'ing in this pot has been comfortable. I have not gone close to boil-overs. Mashing NickJD's 8.5% Belgian Triple was very close to the top of the pot. It had 8kg's of grain in the mash but you wouldn't be able to fit 8kg's of grain into a 24L malt pipe once taking into account filter volume loss and grain volume loss.

I have 10cm difference in the pot diameters and everything comfortably fits, but I wouldn't want the gap to be much smaller.

You should be able to fit 5 kg's in that malt pipe. My spreadsheet calculator has the Big W 19L pot maxing out at 5kgs, but that is dependant on filter design. I won't lose much volume with my filter design.


----------



## aamcle

Angus it you were aiming at 25 litres into the fermenter then I can reinstate my 'cunning plan'.

Aamcle


----------



## angus_grant

Ahhh, my mistake: I have a 50L outer pot. :blush:

With the BIAB, I was getting about 21-22L into the fermentor after evaporation, loss to grain, trub, etc, etc.

Seeing I haven't even built my malt pipe and recirc system yet, I can't give you any real-world figures for the brau-clone. But I get a vague (and completely uncalculated) feeling you would be pushing your system to produce 25L of 1050 wort.


----------



## Sam England

Arvo Aamcle,
I used to BIAB in a 32L pot, mash in 23L, batch/dunk sparge 2x5L and get 23L 1.050 into the fermenter without any issues so you should be right volume wise. Full volume boil used to start at 30L and you had to watch it like a hawk when it came to the boil, but I was brewing inside on the stove wok burner and it took forever to get to the boil and didn't really have the guts to boil over unless I forgot to take the lid off.
Brauclone wise, the most I've mashed in with to date in a single Big W pot is 6.15kg, but I've got a slightly different setup to everyone else. I have to turn the pump on and underlet some wort at the start of the mash to mix it up and make sure there aren't any dough balls, but other than that there weren't too many issues. I'm actually going for 6.25kg this weekend for a 1.065 IPA so that could be interesting!! If you're prepared to sparge (with the added benefit of better efficiency) I can't see why a 40L pot wouldn't work. Even without sparging I think you'd nearly get away with the pot as long as you can get around the physical installation side of things. I'm using a 50L keg as my outside vessel which is probably about the same diameter as your pot, but my setup has the elements located under the malt pipe. Check out my AHB gallery or the ArnieW link at the top of the page. I stole a fair few ideas from here.
Cheers,
BB


----------



## aamcle

I may have to deviate from the pure faith :-( the pot I'm trying to disassemble for parts is not cooperating, I do have a 49 litre Aluminium pot I could use as the outer vessel but it's not shiny......

The thing I'm striping is an ex-army tea urn I've attached a picture, it's double walled and insulated with Vermiculite the inner and outer pots are great but it begins to look as if I'll damage the outer stripping it.

Atb. Aamcle

Dam' I've just re-measured the aluminium pot 36 liters. Grrrr.... No advantage


----------



## aamcle

Got them apart  






It might not make a big clone but it'll be shiny  

Aamcle


----------



## saviothecnic

http://www.saviot.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16:meccanica-by-saviothecnic&catid=8&Itemid=138


----------



## Cavemanbrew

Hello boys and girls, 
Have progressed with the kit together and housing complete, 5 min ago tested with some success, all works heater solid state relay switching and main screen working, looks great, but I can't seem to get the pump relay to switch, the green light comes on but no switching.

Help please !!!!!!!


----------



## djar007

What sort of pump? 12v or 230v? How did you wire it up?Nice looking box you have there.


----------



## Cavemanbrew

240, chugger, champ


----------



## Cavemanbrew

Active Wired through the board relay, and neutral and earth straight thru
Will run to 3 pin plug so I can plug in pump


----------



## matho

Sounds like you have wired it up right, is the relay clicking?


----------



## Cavemanbrew

No it's not, may be I got a bung relay?


----------



## matho

Ah I have just seen it you haven't put in the jumper for the relay, there is 2 positions a 5v one on top and a 12v one on the bottom, the relay would be a 12v so put a jumper in and it should work

cheers steve


----------



## Cavemanbrew

You a legend, off to the shed now, will post out come give me five. 
Oh and thanks for sharing the system Steve


----------



## Cavemanbrew

Jumper in, soldering iron heating!
Jumper soldered in and..........

Thanks Steve (legend champ you chose)


----------



## Cavemanbrew

Hi all, 

can any one help with a manual on how to drive it now?


----------



## djar007

http://db.tt/cGaHmQep


----------



## Cavemanbrew

Thank you!!!!!


----------



## angus_grant

Well I finally got some solid time to work on my beer system. I purchased a pump about a month ago and hooked up some bits I purchased about a year ago.

So I have to finish off the malt pipe and then about 5 hours of software work and I should be able to crank out some beers.





A shot of the camlocks underneath the pot. The central camlock will be the pathway for the recirculating wort to enter into the system.





The chugger pump with the camlocks hooked up. The outlet of the pump has the ball valve to throttle down the flow rate if necessary.





The chugger pump hooked up to the camlocks. I will shorten the silicon tubing up before using the system to minimise heat loss.

I will also look at insulating the tubing as well to minimise heat loss.





A close-up of the central camlock and the very dodgy pine stand I whacked out in about 30 minutes.






A full shot of the system.

Please disregard the dodgy pine stand. I will be getting a friend to weld up a metal stand and add a touch of professionalism to the system. he he

I have done a leak test with the cam locks joined straight together and the only leaking was from the main ball-valve. I had run out of thread tape but thought I would run the leak test anyway. Off to Bunnings for some thread tape during the week and finalise the plumbing after another leak test.

Some really good progress this week.

Now onto the malt pipe which is going to be the challenge of the entire system. The sealing and also the bottom filter locating are going to be the key challenges for this phase.


----------



## aamcle

Afternoon All.

I'm working through options for a small build of my own, I think I'm going to have a issue with making the filter plates.

I only have simple machine tools, jigsaw, grind stone, disk cutter/angle grinder and a press drill.

So what is the best way to proceed? 

2mm plate is very costly in the uk and would be hard for the to work, what alternatives are there?

Any help much appreciated.

Aamcle

PS I'm on holiday so I may be slow to reply


----------



## MastersBrewery

One of the guys did drill out 2mm plate, but lets face it that's a little OCD. This place http://www.johnsonscreens.com/content/maltingbrewing is international and has a branch in the UK haven't checked pricing with them yet though the false bottoms available from the states would probably make their price look reasonable.


----------



## lael

Buy the perf stainless... I drilled out some plates. They work great, but not worth at all work.


----------



## aamcle

Any way of fabricating something using stainless mesh?

I'm trying to stay away from plate steel cause it's hard to work and costly.

I've read through all 60+ pages of this thread and I'm still not sure I've seen coil and mesh used as well as perf plate.

Thanks. Aamcle


----------



## Cavemanbrew

G-day any one know where I can get another kit from, a f$@£^g contractor knocked it off the one i posted pictures of from work yesterday avo. Trying to get CCTV


----------



## breakbeer

angus_grant said:


> The chugger pump hooked up to the camlocks. I will shorten the silicon tubing up before using the system to minimise heat loss.
> I will also look at insulating the tubing as well to minimise heat loss.


Looks awesome Angus!

I would definitely shorten the tubing but I personally wouldn't bother with insulating them, for a couple of reasons. (I insulated mine & have since ripped it all off)

Your control panel/PID will maintain temps VERY accurately & in a way compensates for heat loss. You could wrap the tubes in an ice blanket & the PID will still maintain your mash temp

The kind of foam tube insulation I used gets mouldy very easily unless you fully remove it once it gets wet & sit it in the sun 

just my 2c


----------



## angus_grant

breakbeer said:


> Looks awesome Angus!
> 
> I would definitely shorten the tubing but I personally wouldn't bother with insulating them, for a couple of reasons. (I insulated mine & have since ripped it all off)
> 
> Your control panel/PID will maintain temps VERY accurately & in a way compensates for heat loss. You could wrap the tubes in an ice blanket & the PID will still maintain your mash temp
> 
> The kind of foam tube insulation I used gets mouldy very easily unless you fully remove it once it gets wet & sit it in the sun
> 
> just my 2c


Makes sense as I have been BIAB'ing and recirculating with silicon tubing from the ball valve and up into the top of the pot via outside. Mash temps have been fairly accurate so maybe I won't bother with the insulation unless the 1st brew goes haywire.


----------



## Malted

aamcle said:


> Any way of fabricating something using stainless mesh?
> 
> I'm trying to stay away from plate steel cause it's hard to work and costly.
> 
> I've read through all 60+ pages of this thread and I'm still not sure I've seen coil and mesh used as well as perf plate.
> 
> Thanks. Aamcle


The major issue is you don't want the filter plate to bend and allow the grain through. To get mesh thick enough not to bend, it generally has larger holes in it. This is the same problem faced with perforated stainless plate. The original Speidel design is to use a thicker perforated plate with large holes in it and then some fine stainless mesh that is quite thin but is supported by the perforated plate. Some folks making their own brew vessel have used thin mesh that has a support frame of some sort. At any rate it will require some fiddling.

Perhaps you don't have to drill holes in the filter plate? Some folks (particularly those making false bottoms for 3 vessel breweries) have cut thin slots into plate stainless using a thin SS cutting disk on an angle grinder. 

Generally perforated sheet SS is only available in large pieces unless you get lucky and find someone with some offcuts. Flat sheet SS is usually available in smaller pieces and is often sold by weight instead of size - it can be cheaper in that way.
I have not tried to purchase SS mesh but the quotes I have got are for very large pieces and they are not interested in selling small bits. Plain flat sheet might not be the expensive beast you think it is, relatively speaking.


----------



## aamcle

Thanks for the advice, I'll look into cutting slots in a plate.

Is 2mm thick enough for the top plate? Oh and the bottom plate how thick should that be?

Many thanks. Aamcle


----------



## lael

2mm is what the brau uses (malted posted the specs from his in this thread a while back). It is ideal. Thinner than that and they have been known to bend. The key is getting the crush of your grain right - too fine and it clogs up, and the pressure on the plates from the pump is suprisingly powerful. I have 1.5mm stainless, top plate is 10mm holes i drilled in it. The plate took a dome shape from the drilling, and I've got bars from a bain marie as re-inforcing. On one brew the (more powder in the crush than there should have been and pushing the capacity limits of the machine) the pressure actually flipped the disc dome the other way and bent the reinforcing bars... so if you can get 2mm thick, I would. I don't think the bottom plate is as important as the water just passes through it and then the pressure pushes up against the top plate. But... if you are getting 2mm for the top... you might as well...


----------



## notung

The brew moth awakened for the first time through the week, meaning that I've finally broken through to a testing/fine tuning stage on this project. It's been a long time in the making so far. Here are some pictures:





The brew moth. Picture a plywood box exoskeleton and expander foam insulated cavity. To finish I am planning to pyrograph the brew moth design on the plywood cladding.





Brew moth controller front, with lcd displaying temp reading of 4095degC. I've asked for help on that issue in another thread. Fascia panel printed by Superoo. Thanks again mate, I love it.





Private areas of the brew moth. Element terminals visible inside die-cast sealed aluminium box. Little brown pump outlets up through central fitting. Inlet to pump is visible on right hand side. Temp sensor probe is at 4 o'clock, wired to 3 pin computer fan connectors so probe could be removed without cutting wire (small hole for temp probe fitting). The plumbing arrangements may change a little. Goodness knows I may well need to upgrade the pump. We'll just wait and see how that all goes.


----------



## djar007

That is a behemoth. Really cool mate. Cant wait to see it pumping.


----------



## Edak

Notung that looks the goods, great idea for the stand. I hope it remains easy to clean. Yeah the pump will probably fail but use it as much as you can because you have it. 
Do you have a good earth connection to the pot? Don't forget this important detail.


----------



## notung

Thanks edak,

I believe the earth connection is pretty good, although I have not powered up the element yet. You can see the earth wire in the last photo, inside the diecast aluminium sealed box. It is connected to one of the element fastening screws (not the terminal) underneath the nut. In your opinion, have I earthed the whole pot by doing so?

I believe cleaning should be easy once the whole system has its outer plywood cladding. It'll be finished with something to make it a little more wort-proof too. Still working that bit out though...


----------



## booargy

I was getting zero readings until I found that that arduino board had a ground fault on pin 11.


----------



## bonj

booargy said:


> I was getting zero readings until I found that that arduino board had a ground fault on pin 11.


Eeek! Which board was that booargy? Not one of mine I hope!


----------



## blotto

notung said:


> Thanks edak,
> 
> I believe the earth connection is pretty good, although I have not powered up the element yet. You can see the earth wire in the last photo, inside the diecast aluminium sealed box. It is connected to one of the element fastening screws (not the terminal) underneath the nut. In your opinion, have I earthed the whole pot by doing so?


It's a little hard to say from the photo, it's possible for elements to become insulated from the pot if big fiber washers or silicon seals are used on the inside and outside. The only way to be sure is use a multimeter and do an earth resistance test to confirm the earth, test between the plug and exposed metal parts of your rig (Test to the pot, box and element), it should be no greater that 1 ohm but I would expect it to be less as 1 ohm is max. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## micbrew

I need some advise on filters for my malt pipe
ive have asked for a quote on 2mm s/steel .... 300mm in diameter with 2mm perforations

will this size be adequate and the pump im using is a LBP from keg king , I hoping the pump and the diameter of the *perforated holes are enough*
for the pump to handle etc etc



with thanks mick


----------



## notung

Wort said:


> It's a little hard to say from the photo, it's possible for elements to become insulated from the pot if big fiber washers or silicon seals are used on the inside and outside. The only way to be sure is use a multimeter and do an earth resistance test to confirm the earth, test between the plug and exposed metal parts of your rig (Test to the pot, box and element), it should be no greater that 1 ohm but I would expect it to be less as 1 ohm is max.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Will do, thanks. I see what you mean. I've got silicone element washers on the inside of the pot but not on the outside. The multimeter test is a great idea.


----------



## lael

micbrew said:


> I need some advise on filters for my malt pipe
> ive have asked for a quote on 2mm s/steel .... 300mm in diameter with 2mm perforations
> 
> will this size be adequate and the pump im using is a LBP from keg king , I hoping the pump and the diameter of the *perforated holes are enough*
> for the pump to handle etc etc
> 
> 
> 
> with thanks mick



I'm not sure about your pump - but from memory the smallest hole size I could find for 2mm perf ss was 3mm hole size.


----------



## pat_00

Almost finished acquiring all the bits I need to make my version.

But where can I find a short thermowell? gonna try and fit one under the malt pipe.


----------



## blotto

pat_00 said:


> Almost finished acquiring all the bits I need to make my version.
> 
> But where can I find a short thermowell? gonna try and fit one under the malt pipe.


Here http://gryphonbrewing.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=64&products_id=564 or here http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4092 but Craftbrewer is out of stock so you might have to call them to see when they are getting more in.


----------



## pat_00

Cheers,

I have emailed craftbrewer, will wait and see what they say.

The gryphon one looks like it might not be suitable for 'weldless' use? doesn't seem to have enough of a lip for sealing.


----------



## angus_grant

Unless I have missed the updates, CB have been out of stock ever since I started building mine

I have a bunch of thermo-wells I was going to use but could not get good thermal reading speeds through them with a DS18B20 temp probe. I tried using thermal paste, but could not get a quick enough response time. Maybe it is the thermo-well, maybe it was the probe I was using. The actual probe was installed inside a metal sheath and I was sliding this sheath into the thermo-well. So that could explain the slow temp readings.

http://www.brewershardware.com/2-Non-Heat-Shielded-1-2-MNPT-Stainless-Steel-Thermowell.html

I ended up using some thermowells with DS18B20 probes pre-installed. Buggered if I can find the email where I bought them though.

You can have one of the thermo-wells for $15. Should cover postage and a bit of the initial purchase price.


----------



## Edak

angus_grant said:


> Unless I have missed the updates, CB have been out of stock ever since I started building mine
> 
> I have a bunch of thermo-wells I was going to use but could not get good thermal reading speeds through them with a DS18B20 temp probe. I tried using thermal paste, but could not get a quick enough response time. Maybe it is the thermo-well, maybe it was the probe I was using. The actual probe was installed inside a metal sheath and I was sliding this sheath into the thermo-well. So that could explain the slow temp readings.
> 
> http://www.brewershardware.com/2-Non-Heat-Shielded-1-2-MNPT-Stainless-Steel-Thermowell.html
> 
> I ended up using some thermowells with DS18B20 probes pre-installed. Buggered if I can find the email where I bought them though.
> 
> You can have one of the thermo-wells for $15. Should cover postage and a bit of the initial purchase price.


I believe the link you were looking for (for the thermowell with sensor already inside was this:
http://www.sureelectronics.net/goods.php?id=1276


----------



## QldKev

Edak said:


> I believe the link you were looking for (for the thermowell with sensor already inside was this:
> http://www.sureelectronics.net/goods.php?id=1276


I'm with Edak, screw paying big money for a thermowell when you can get a decent sensor setup for half the cost.


----------



## angus_grant

Bingo edak. I wasn't looking forward to trawling through 50 pages of this thread to find the link. Mine is working well and I prefer this one as the thread is on the outside away from the mash and wort and less cavities for nasties to hide.


----------



## pat_00

Sweet! Will order one of those sureelectronics ones. Cheers


----------



## angus_grant

May as well grab a few. A spare or two and you can always think of more uses.

Once I get my patio set up properly I will be running my fermentation processes from the laptop, control the beer fridge, and be controlling my brewing. All these will be using these probes...

Cheers,
Angus.


----------



## MastersBrewery

you could also check out the probes over at brewtroller, however I believe most of these would be too big


----------



## Edak

If you are a bit suss about ordering from their dodgy website, they also have an ebay store, which is probably the same price.

I remembered the store name and just went there instead of trawling.


----------



## pat_00

I ordered two. Didn't even notice their website was dodgy 

Chopped up a keg (legal) to start my clone. Took a while, but it all looks good to go. The BigW 19l malt pipe is sitting pretty low in the keg I reckon I might extend it by stacking another pot on top, after cutting the bottom out. I guess the bigger the malt pipe the better, right?

I also have a question about the wiring for a 240v pump using the brauduino/brewmiser kit. Namely, where to put the earth connection I assume running the earth back into the control box is the way to go.

Should I use IEC plugs and sockets for this instead of the microphone type specified in the kit? I have a lot of experience with DIY electronics, just not a heap of 240v stuff.


----------



## angus_grant

The short answer is we can't give you an answer.  Read on for the longer answer.

With regards to the malt pipe height: this is governed by what beer you are making. You have to be conscious that (grain + water that grain displaces + water) covers your heating element whilst recirculating.

So the higher your malt pipe the more water + grain volume you need to fill the malt pipe to actually over-flow the water and keep your heating elements covered by water.

You will need to calculate what beers you brew most often and make that the sweet spot for your malt pipe. Brewing a higher gravity beer than normal and you can cram a bit of extra grain into the malt pipe or mess with your grain to liquor ratio. Lower gravity beers and you need to be careful with your water level to make sure recirculating still covers the elements because less space is taken up inside the malt pipe.

Basically with a single Big W malt pot, my system has a theoretical (i have yet to use my system) max grain capacity of 6kgs taking into account mash thickness inside the malt pipe plus keeping my element covered by liquid. I have a spreadsheet linked way back in this thread which has a basic calculator for malt pipe size + volume calculations for grain capacity, grain to liquor ratios, etc, etc. This will give you a max amount of grain you can cram into the malt pipe. Then you can roughly calculate max original gravity possible with that grain on based on some efficiency figure you pluck out of the air.

Bigger may not better. Bigger may cause expensive stinky smoke from your heating element.

I plan on using a single Big W pot for my normal beers (4.5% to 5.5% or so) and then work out some way to bolt 2 pots together for higher gravity beers.


----------



## angus_grant

Here's the link to my post with the spreadsheet calculator: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/index.php?showtopic=57924&view=findpost&p=907532


----------



## booargy

pat_00 said:


> where to put the earth connection I assume running the earth back into the control box is the way to go.


Connect the pump earth to the main incoming earth. Connect any exposed metal to the main incoming earth.


----------



## pat_00

Thanks for the advice, that's what I'll do with the earthing.

As far as the malt pipe goes i am designing it in a way that will enable me to extend it at a later date.

Some progress pics: A butchered keg and my malt pipe's bottom filter. It's from Ibrew and fits the base of the 19l BigW pot perfectly.


----------



## lael

I've been working on upgrading my malt pipe - adding in a second one that is larger. I'm using a 33cmD x 35cmH pot, which from my calcs should allow roughly 10kg of grain (2.8 fluidisation). A couple of questions:
1 - It looks like I didn't do the best job of spacing my heater element holes and i'm struggling to shape the heater so that it is evenly spaced around the larger malt pipe. It's close in spots and touches the malt pipe in a couple of spots. Any thoughts on if / how much of an issue this is likely to be?
2 - The malt pipe tapers only a little, and I left about 2mm or so spacing around the top filter plate - which leaves space for the stainless mesh. But... the plate slides down into the pot easily (the taper on the BigW pot is steeper and I cut it more closely) Does anyone else have this issue? Does the mash hold the plate up, does it move around during pump breaks? Anyone know how the braumeister handles it?

Thinking about putting in some bolts if required.

Cheers!


----------



## Sam England

Can't help you with point 2 as my top plate sits on bolts, but I reckon you'll be fine with the element issue as it's only point contact and there will still be plenty of wort to pull the heat away. I also assume your element is close to the bottom of the pot which will mean the majority of the mash will be pushed up away from this point during use anyway so you would only be heating wort on the inside anyway.
Cheers,
BB


----------



## MastersBrewery

Point 2 you could use a nut on the centre rod (if its all thread) to maintain minimum top plate height


----------



## djar007

I find once my plate is set at the start the grain bed forms into the right shape Lael. So even when there is pump rests it pushes back up nice and evenly. I will go with a crossbar to make sure it stay even as I feel this is important to have it exactly level. I am really seeing a much clearer result from batches where I had a good even but slow flow through during the mash. I guess due to less channeling and compaction of the grain bed and better distribution of heat. I attribute that to a good even and flat plate on top and the mesh screen below that. A sirclip would be a good way for you to hold up the plate with the tapering allowing it to slide down so freely.


----------



## lael

djar007 said:


> I find once my plate is set at the start the grain bed forms into the right shape Lael. So even when there is pump rests it pushes back up nice and evenly. I will go with a crossbar to make sure it stay even as I feel this is important to have it exactly level. I am really seeing a much clearer result from batches where I had a good even but slow flow through during the mash. I guess due to less channeling and compaction of the grain bed and better distribution of heat. I attribute that to a good even and flat plate on top and the mesh screen below that. A sirclip would be a good way for you to hold up the plate with the tapering allowing it to slide down so freely.


so - does your top plate move up and down when the pump turns on and off?

I've got crossbars to stop the plates flexing - though the new one is 2mm thick 

What is a sirclip?


----------



## djar007

Mine does move up and down. About 100 mm. 

Sorry a circlip. 

As in a groove cut into the shaft and a circlip attached that would hold the plate up.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=circlip&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Oz1AUsLiA4HZigfH5YC4Bw&ved=0CFUQsAQ&biw=1536&bih=773&dpr=1


----------



## lael

ah cool - mine is all thread - the nut idea might be a goer... oh - wait - just realised that will be a pain when removing the malt pipe. Does grain escape at all? What size/ clearance is around your center shaft


----------



## djar007

Centre shaft has is tight fitting and i have a stainless washer between the mesh screen and the plate to make sure it seals. Come to think of it a silicon seal would work well. I dont have any grain escaping. I did when my plate came up on an angle. But hopefully those days are finished.The brew I did on Sunday was m best ever and I did it on manual to keep cycling the pump to see if I could flush the grains back and forth a little better. Doing so took the load off the pump through the early rests and when I got up to the alpha rest my wort was amazingly clear and the pump wasnt struggling at all.


----------



## matho

So after 2 years the original controller is getting the boot and the brauduino is being put in its place. The reason was a couple of connectors were becoming dicky causing the display to flicker, also I want to play with the brauduino. I feel kind of sad to see it go.




the brauduino is being mounted differently to the was it was intended but that is to fit my original box, I'm glad I kept the space for the resistor where J1 is, it allows me to run the optocoupler of the original braumiser.

cheers steve


----------



## Edak

Did you upsize at the same time Steve?


----------



## matho

nope, I love the size, just right for me  . I did pull all the fittings apart and gave them a good clean, they were not too dirty considering its been over a year since I did it last.


----------



## Edak

As long as you are giving them a good clean with the percarb then you will find that they should be nice and clean. It's just the element that needs a second wipe after percarb for me. I took my pump apart and it was shiny and clean like new, this was after about 15-20 brews. I only have to replace small lengths of silicone hose (I have barbed pump) every 6-9 months. Valves also look very clean, I give them all a few open-closes with percarb in them after every brew.


----------



## Edak

I am hoping to do another brew on Sunday, anyone still building their rig in the area is welcome to join.


----------



## real_beer

Has anybody here successfully cut down, resized, and glued a Braumeister malt pipe seal back together, and can you remember the name of the product used?

Cheers


----------



## djar007

Loctite would work fine mate. Think it's 505. But always get my Loctite and my Peugeots confused.


----------



## real_beer

djar007 said:


> Loctite would work fine mate. Think it's 505. But always get my Loctite and my Peugeots confused.


Thanks :beer:


----------



## djar007

Just checked and it isn't 505. The Loctite epoxy resin will work. Good for rubbers and plastics.


----------



## real_beer

I found this but the price isn't good: http://www.smooth-on.com/Epoxy,-Silicone-an/c11_1189/index.html?catdepth=1


----------



## real_beer

While waiting for my element to arrive I decided to make a cover for between the malt pipe & pot to use while pouring in the grain. I had an old pool noodle lying around taking up space so I cut it down to size and glued the ends together.


----------



## lael

Looks cool! I've found its not that much of an issue in practice. Your malt pipe looks a really good size! What pot sizes are you using?


----------



## real_beer

lael said:


> Looks cool! I've found its not that much of an issue in practice. Your malt pipe looks a really good size! What pot sizes are you using?


Its a 50lt pot with an old 20lt urn I picked up at a scrapyard.


----------



## Cocko

The more people can use pool noodles the better I say!!

Sincerely, awesome real_beer


----------



## real_beer

Cocko said:


> The more people can use pool noodles the better I say!!


Love the noodles, lots of uses & easy to cut with a sharp knife


----------



## aamcle

Can I ask some questions please?

Does the top filter sainless plate been to be made out of 2 - 3mm perf plate, can something be fabricated fairly simplly i.e. simple tools no lathes/mills or lasers.

Has anybody tried a comercial filter bag say 400 micron?

Atb. Aamcle


----------



## saviothecnic

Video Primo Test Clone Finito 11 11 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2JW1j1myiI&feature=youtu.be


----------



## real_beer

aamcle said:


> Can I ask some questions please?
> 
> Does the top filter sainless plate been to be made out of 2 - 3mm perf plate, can something be fabricated fairly simplly i.e. simple tools no lathes/mills or lasers.
> 
> Has anybody tried a comercial filter bag say 400 micron?
> 
> Atb. Aamcle


I got an offcut of 1.2mm ss perforated plate from a fabrication company for the plates and cut to shape with an angle grinder. The filter mesh I picked up from a scrapyard & cut to shape easily with my dear old late dad's 60 yo tin snips. The inserts to stop the plates bending is 10mm square ss bar & cost me aprox $70 AU dollars (proper money to the rest of the world at the moment) for the material & having it rolled to shape. I've still got to clean it all up as it looks a bit grubby at the moment & the pics aren't the best as they're just screenshots from my dash cam. Hope this might give you some ideas. Never underestimate the value of the project topic, neighbors with specialty tools are usually very interested & kind enough to help out if you ask nicely. Mine actually took the centre rod to his work & had the fitters thread the ends and also drill the 10mm ss bar for me.

Scrapyards are great for cheap material compared to fabrication shops, I got 1200mm x 25mm x 10mm ss bar for only $5 so check them out first. You'll also find some are very friendly and happy to let you poke around in the bins if you approach them well. Some won't even let you in the yard so don't be put off if you get a few knock backs.






:beer:


----------



## pat_00

Dunno if this is crossposting, but I'm abandoning my brau clone project. All the bits are for sale in the trading forum.


----------



## aamcle

Thanks Real.


Aamcle


----------



## tateg

Edak said:


> I have finally decided that I would get the H03797 from Thermal Products in Thomastown. It's about $138 in GST, 2400W and will be bent to my specification. The other crowd (TEE) wanted to charge me about $170 plus an additional $35 to pick up an element from them and that's highway robbery.
> 
> The one I am picking up is made of incoloy 800 so will be perfectly suited for wort.


Hi Edak 
I just got a quote back from thermal products in Thomastown and they are asking 210+ gst for the element above 
Is there anything special u asked for ? 
They want $100 to bend it for me ?
Are the elements hard to bend ? 

Cheers 
Tate


----------



## roller997

That doesn't sound right, unless you are getting some very different elements to the ones I purchased or there was a very big increase since I purchased mine.
I purchased two 3000W elements from them in August and they were $102+GST each for bendable elements. 
They bent the ends free of charge at 90degrees to get them through the bottom of the kettle and I bent the rest myself. I bought the 2600mm long element as I wanted to have really low heat density but I would have thought if anything these should have been dearer than the shorter variety or the 2400W elements.
Part number H03798

Cheers

Roller


----------



## tateg

That doesn't sound right, unless you are getting some very different elements to the ones I purchased or there was a very big increase since I purchased mine.
I purchased two 3000W elements from them in August and they were $102+GST each for bendable elements. 
They bent the ends free of charge at 90degrees to get them through the bottom of the kettle and I bent the rest myself. I bought the 2600mm long element as I wanted to have really low heat density but I would have thought if anything these should have been dearer than the shorter variety or the 2400W elements.
Part number H03798

Cheers

Roller

Yeah that's what I thought maybe I will ask them just to bend the ends 90 degrees 
Did the elements also come with the bushes ?
Thanks roller


----------



## pat_00

tateg said:


> Hi Edak
> I just got a quote back from thermal products in Thomastown and they are asking 210+ gst for the element above
> Is there anything special u asked for ?
> They want $100 to bend it for me ?
> Are the elements hard to bend ?
> 
> Cheers
> Tate


Get in touch with Romar Elements directly, they do all the custom work for Thermal Products. You'll save a lot.

The 2400w one I got bent up fro my keggle based Brau-clone cost about $120.


----------



## tateg

Thanks pat 
I will give it a shot


----------



## roller997

tateg said:


> Yeah that's what I thought maybe I will ask them just to bend the ends 90 degrees
> Did the elements also come with the bushes ?
> Thanks roller


Yes, they have all the mounting kit at both ends of the element. Note that mine were the 2600mm 3000Watt elements so you would need 15Amp power and your normal power point would not suffice.

Regards

Roland


----------



## Edak

I just called and asked for the price, they bent the ends free of charge even if they stuffed up the bend measurements.


----------



## tateg

Thanks pat
The one I was looking at is 03797 which is the biggest I could go on 10a plug 

Next question, anyone got any tips on cutting 2mm stainless ? 

Thanks


----------



## tateg

I just called and asked for the price, they bent the ends free of charge even if they stuffed up the bend measurements.

Thanks Edak 
Maybe I will try again, what height did you get yours bent at ? As I notice I am using the same chef land pot 
Cheers tate


----------



## Edak

I wanted one to be bent at about 20mm and the other at 50mm but both were bent at the same length. Worked out in the end. My best bit of advice for your build would be to make neat holes in your pot and remember to re passivate the stainless after any scratches.


----------



## tateg

Get in touch with Romar Elements directly, they do all the custom work for Thermal Products. You'll save a lot.

The 2400w one I got bent up fro my keggle based Brau-clone cost about $120.


Yep romar is the place to go 
120+gst which includes being bent in to shape for me, rob there was super helpful


----------



## tateg

Hi all 
Any reason y I couldn't use the out side of a stainless bin like the below for the malt pipe ?
http://m.masters.com.au/product/100539716/round-pedal-bin-stainless-steel-30l


----------



## djar007

Not much integrity when clamping it down.


----------



## tateg

True I guess 
Any ideas on a strait walled 25l pot in melbs?
Was hoping to put the temp probe under the bottom filer plate or has every one just put them out side the pipe ? 
Cheers


----------



## real_beer

tateg said:


> Was hoping to put the temp probe under the bottom filer plate or has every one just put them out side the pipe ?
> Cheers


If you use a ss pot for the malt pipe & cut the bottom out, the temperature probe will be in the way of the bottom filter plate unless your using big pots & mount your filter plate on legs.

Cheers


----------



## tateg

If you use a ss pot for the malt pipe & cut the bottom out, the temperature probe will be in the way of the bottom filter plate unless your using big pots & mount your filter plate on legs.

Cheers

Yeah that's y I was planing on a 25l pot cut flush at the bottom then using bolt heads on the inside to hold the bottom plate up by about 60mm that way there would still be about 19 - 20 liters between the filters and enough room to have the temp probe underneath. 
Thoughts


----------



## dicko

I own a BM so I have no plans to build one, however if I was to build a clone I would consider buying a 23 litre "chineese" keg ( the short squat ones) that some home brew shops stock and use that for a malt pipe. they are quite solid and could take some welding or drilling without to many problems and they are bigger than a 19 litre pot from big W etc. but they will cost you a fair bit more. Once you have cut the top and the bottom out of them you could go your hardest with building a good malt pipe.

Just thinkin"


----------



## tateg

I own a BM so I have no plans to build one, however if I was to build a clone I would consider buying a 23 litre "chineese" keg ( the short squat ones) that some home brew shops stock and use that for a malt pipe. they are quite solid and could take some welding or drilling without to many problems and they are bigger than a 19 litre pot from big W etc. but they will cost you a fair bit more. Once you have cut the top and the bottom out of them you could go your hardest with building a good malt pipe.

Just thinkin"

Thanks dicko I haven't seen these around, any hints on which LHSB has them ?
Do you use the 20l BM ? 

Cheers


----------



## real_beer

tateg said:


> Yeah that's y I was planing on a 25l pot cut flush at the bottom then using bolt heads on the inside to hold the bottom plate up by about 60mm that way there would still be about 19 - 20 liters between the filters and enough room to have the temp probe underneath.
> Thoughts


This is the probe I have its about 50mm high inside the pot so you'd be okay with one of these: 
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ipg=25&_osacat=0&_armrs=1&_ssn=sureelectronics&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=%09+3m+Digital+Thermal+Tank+Sensor+Horizontal+-+DS18B20+&_sacat=0&_from=R40


----------



## tateg

Is that the sure elec one ? 
I'm jus wondering if the pot with the bases cut off will be solid enough to clamp down on


----------



## dicko

tateg said:


> Thanks dicko I haven't seen these around, any hints on which LHSB has them ?
> Do you use the 20l BM ?
> 
> Cheers


You may have to phone around as I have done a quick search and havent seen any on the current suppliers sites.. Ring Brewmaker at Holden Hill in Adelaide.. that is where I got mine and he may be able to steer you in the right direction.. they may have been discontinued but if you could get a second hand one they would make a great malt pipe in my opinion.


----------



## MastersBrewery

the other side of the coin is; the BM filter plates are available from G&G, you could probably also get the malt pipe ordered in. Even with the costs of these purchases I'd say you'd be well ahead on the cost of an entire BM. Obviously there are warranty advantages purchasing the genuine article, the advantages of using what people have built here are various, and depending on your skill set could even be extended to wireless control and so forth.
The cost of a 20lt BM is around the $2500 mark at most places, with that in mind, I think the short and long malt pipes for the 50, with two filter plates and seals, the rest of the kit built in a 100lt pot would be well under $2000. These items are the most discussed throughout this thread, and probably the part most have trouble with, do it right do it once and so forth.

my 2c


----------



## tateg

I thought about that and would be happy to buy the 20 litre malt pipe and filters but I don't think that you can order in the malt pipe


----------



## tateg

I thought about that and would be happy to buy the 20 litre malt pipe and filters but I don't think that you can order in the malt pipe


----------



## aamcle

The NextGen build is back on but there is something that I can't work out.

The urn I'm using is 39cm diameter by 44cm deep ( about 30litres) 
My mash pipe is 28cm diameter currently its 39cm high a volume of about 24litres. 

I'm planning to do small batches 10 to 15litre so I'm fairly sure the pipe is too big. 

Calculating the volume of water needed:-

15/0.85 + 2 + x. Final volume/0.85 for evap during boil, plus loss to trub and water absorbed by grain so that's about 21 - 25 litres maybe 26 at a push. I might even want to hold back a litre or two to use as a sparge.

So with those sizes what do you think would be the best size for the malt pipe?

Many Thanks. Aamcle


----------



## lael

Play around with the spreadsheet attached. Your outer pot is closer to 40L, with that malt pipe as is you can do up to around 1.070 beers at a normal batch size. I would be tempted to leave it as is. 

View attachment Lael's Braumiser Volumes_aamcle.xls


----------



## Edak

the other side of the coin is; the BM filter plates are available from G&G, you could probably also get the malt pipe ordered in. Even with the costs of these purchases I'd say you'd be well ahead on the cost of an entire BM. Obviously there are warranty advantages purchasing the genuine article, the advantages of using what people have built here are various, and depending on your skill set could even be extended to wireless control and so forth.
The cost of a 20lt BM is around the $2500 mark at most places, with that in mind, I think the short and long malt pipes for the 50, with two filter plates and seals, the rest of the kit built in a 100lt pot would be well under $2000. These items are the most discussed throughout this thread, and probably the part most have trouble with, do it right do it once and so forth.

my 2c

just note that the filters from GG on their website at least aren't the solid ones that everyone wants, they are the mesh flimsy filters. Solid filter plates would cost you much more than $20 at retail...


----------



## tateg

just note that the filters from GG on their website at least aren't the solid ones that everyone wants, they are the mesh flimsy filters. Solid filter plates would cost you much more than $20 at retail...


I think they also have the solid ones at about $65.
I am still thinking whether I can cut the base off a 25 litre handy imports pot then use a BM 50L seal cut down to seal it. Just not sure if I would be able to clamp it down enough to seal.


----------



## aamcle

Thanks for the .xls having a play with it.


aamcle


----------



## MastersBrewery

Edak said:


> just note that the filters from GG on their website at least aren't the solid ones that everyone wants, they are the mesh flimsy filters. Solid filter plates would cost you much more than $20 at retail...


They have both the solid and the finer fly wire type ones. The 50Bm ones aren't priced but as the 20Bm plates are $65 I'd guess around the $100 mark. Small malt pipe $180, if the large malt pipe wasn't available for direct purchase, simply take the small one to a fab shop have him copy it .... but taller, if the fab cost came in even at $500-$600, you'd still be under $2000 for a 50L Bm build


----------



## tateg

More questions.

Has anyone had any issues with having the temp probe outside of the malt pipe?
Is there any benefit to putting it in the malt pipe ?

cheers


----------



## Edak

No problem here...


----------



## lael

No problem. Temp being reported is the same as coming out of the top of the malt pipe. That is pretty much all that is important. I think I copied edak and put it next to the pump inlet to make sure it has flowing water over it. 

I don't think the loss of height and grain bed / capacity is worth putting it inside the malt pipe.


----------



## tateg

lael said:


> Thoroughly recommend the union fittings! I put the on the bottom of both skin fittings; one going onto the pump, and then on the outlet of the pump. Means I can take the whole plumbing section of the Brau off easily, or just the pump. Really happy with flexibility it allows


hey lael,
where did u end up getting those union coupling fittings?
also the 1/2" skin fittings from whitworths, does anyone know what thread they are (NPT/BSP)?

Thanks


----------



## Edak

Don't know about unions, but skin fittings were 1/2 bsp


----------



## MastersBrewery

the unions were Linked by Malted, I think in Lael's kit thread in buy and sell and they were 1/2 inch BSP from memory


----------



## tateg

I thought the skin fittings might be bsp malted linked a npt fitting in the post before lael so I just wanted to make sure 
Cheers


----------



## MastersBrewery

in 1/2 inch BSP and NTP are interchangable/compatible, a small amount of thread tape required ..... many threads about this...


----------



## tateg

Fair enough never had to look at it before 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lael

Hi all,

Looking at my braumisercostingandsources.xlsx (on my computer but search may find it?) I've got them listed as bsp from anzor.

I got caught out by the whole npt/bsp thing. My personal experience is that they don't actually play as nice together as people say. From memory male npt to female bsp is fine (with tape). but male bsp to female npt was not happy. I would buy everything from Anzor in bsp if I was to purchase parts again - they were great to deal with and had great prices and no minimum order. Shipping did add up quickly though. I found it hard because I was ordering parts before I really knew how I wanted to do the plumbing, but I found it difficult to really work out how the plumbing would work before ordering the parts (make any sense?). Try to figure out your plumbing first, get your quantities right, then do an order.

I pulled the unions apart the other day and found that there was sticky wort inside them - nothing weird, just residue. So I might need to clean them more frequently. Be easier when my new stand gets done soon  - oh - that was the other thing. Someone commented when I was building to get the stand figured out first and get it made, then do the rest. I was keen to get brewing, and the stand was pretty bling optional. With the stand happening I look back and would have placed things slightly differently now. So.. I would echo the same thing - get a stand made first  (this is mostly important if you are doing more complicated plumbing underneath like I did - and no, it's not that complicated, but makes placement more critical. ).


----------



## micbrew

hi Lael

interested in you're plan for the stand / dimension's ?? I haven't settled on a design although the braumeister is a good start  I suppose

..yes I agree stand first = best option
then you can figure out real estate for plumbing and control box etc etc

I have access to a s/steel fabricator .. and hope to get started soonish

also will be ditching ...the big W pot (malt pipe) and going for a 50ltr (Malt Pipe)


thx mick


----------



## lael

I saw this http://www.restaurantneed.com/%C3%8E%C2%A6400mm%C3%8E%C2%A6450mm-stainless-steel-soup-pot-with-stand_p2891.html when I was researching pots and sizes. Basically got it built but with the legs under the pot rim. 

But... having trouble figuring out where to put the control box now  

50lt malt pipe? or 50lt system? 50Ltr malt pipe would be epic. Think I saw some pics of someone who did it - uses a 100L pot and I think a 50L keg as the malt pipe. don't remember who though. pumps down and into the bottom of the keg and then back up through the grain. No holes in the pot. I'm not sure what the limits on water etc would be, but would assume you'd have to be doing triple batches or something like it.


----------



## tateg

Hi
does anyone know the gauge of the threaded rod that the 20 BM uses ?
is it M10 or M12 ?
cheers


----------



## tateg

Hi
does anyone know the gauge of the threaded rod that the 20 BM uses ?
is it M10 or M12 ?
cheers

20 litre uses 12mm rod if anyone was wondering
Went in store and got one measured


----------



## aamcle

Morning All.

Question about pump rests and.....

There is a very nice UK build :-

http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62803

I'm getting the parts together to build a slightly smaller version in 30 litre urn its going to take time.

Pump Rests.

When do pump rests occur?
What triggers them are they on a timer or something else? 
How long do they last?
Does the top plate slide down during the rest?
Is it important that the top plate slides down?

Many Thanks. Aamcle


----------



## dicko

aamcle said:


> Morning All.
> Question about pump rests and.....
> There is a very nice UK build :-
> http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62803
> I'm getting the parts together to build a slightly smaller version in 30 litre urn its going to take time.
> Pump Rests.
> When do pump rests occur?
> 
> Every 10 minutes
> 
> What triggers them are they on a timer or something else?
> 
> The break is programmed into the controller software
> 
> How long do they last?
> 
> Never really timed it but is roughly one minute.
> 
> Does the top plate slide down during the rest?
> 
> Yes
> 
> Is it important that the top plate slides down?
> 
> Probably not but it sure is good to watch
> 
> Many Thanks. Aamcle


----------



## aamcle

Ideal thanks.

Do they still occur during temperature ramps ie when going up from 60 to 70C?


Aamcle


----------



## dicko

Yes, the pump break happens from the dough in start...


----------



## aamcle

Thanks


----------



## tateg

Hi guys
I am looking for a food grade epoxy to seal up the thermowell in the pics below, would need to be more of a liquid I think.
Could I use jb weld? Haven't been able to find a definitive answer if it is beer safe
Cheers


----------



## djar007

I've got a temp probe that's brand new you can have mate. Looks the same size. It's the One with weld less already part of it. Regards dave


----------



## tateg

I've got a temp probe that's brand new you can have mate. Looks the same size. It's the One with weld less already part of it. Regards dave

Thanks Dave 
The photo is one if those sure electronics ones with the bulk head but it was a little to long, I need it to be less than 35mm in to the pot.
I thought I could use a 1/2 bush the some epoxy to seal


----------



## djar007

Ah cool. I see. I have some high temp silicone that would work for that. Got it at masters. But all my brew gear is packed Up ready to move. Otherwise I could let you have that. Or what's left of it.


----------



## real_beer

tateg said:


> Hi guys
> I am looking for a food grade epoxy to seal up the thermowell in the pics below, would need to be more of a liquid I think.
> Could I use jb weld? Haven't been able to find a definitive answer if it is beer safe
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1385944587.078875.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1385944607.026776.jpg


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RTV-650F-Red-Silicon-Adhesive-FDA-Food-Grade-Safe-High-Temp-Gasket-smoker-sealer-/171054621766?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d3a66446


----------



## tateg

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RTV-650F-Red-Silicon-Adhesive-FDA-Food-Grade-Safe-High-Temp-Gasket-smoker-sealer-/171054621766?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d3a66446


Thanks have you tried the stuff??


----------



## dicko

Dow corning make the silicon sealant and it is readily available in Australia....


http://www.dowcorning.com/applications/search/default.aspx?R=2142EN


----------



## saviothecnic

Bene oggi ho quasi terminato 

Inscatolare il tutto non è stato semplice vi posto qualche foto
Come vi ho accennato ho deciso di svincolare elettronica dal blocco meccanico.

Quindi ci sono dei connettori sull' elettronica e sulla parte meccanica

Well today I have almost finished: D

Canning the whole it was not easy I'll post some pictures
As I mentioned I have decided to release the mechanical lock electronics.

Then there are the connectors on the 'electronic and mechanical parts


























Servirebbe un contenitore un pelo più grande circa 2 centimetri per ogni lato compreso altezza
Ma alla fine sono riuscito a farci entrare tutto 

Certo appena qualcuno risucira a implementarci una tastiera piatta key 4x4
il costo e sopratutto ingombro avra un notevole miglioria ma gia cosi non è niente male 

Se in questa settimana riesco a finire tutto a breve vi postero il video del test di cotta.

Would need a larger container a hair about 2 inches on each side including height
But in the end I managed to get us all: D

Of course, as soon as someone risucira to implementarci a flat keyboard key 4x4
the cost and size will have a significant improvement especially
but already so it is not bad: D

If this week I can finish everything you posterolateral short video of the test firing.


----------



## djar007

tateg said:


> I need it to be less than 35mm in to the pot.


Sorry. Mine is 45mm. Close but no cigar.


----------



## real_beer

tateg said:


> Thanks have you tried the stuff??


Not yet, I ordered some on the weekend to seal a leaky seam on my malt-pipe so it will be a week or so before it gets here.


----------



## saviothecnic

Someone asked me that pump use
I have already written on my website www.saviot.com
but it is also good to give info here I took a ecocirc Laing E1

http://www.pumpendiscounter.de/ReigaGbR-p1051h290s319-Laing-ecocirc-E1vari.html?sid=851bf47a2a4e85fa0e27c77013f58860


----------



## JoeyJoeJoe

Guys,

I am very interested in starting to gather the fittings I need for one of these. I have a 50L pot with a 2400W electric element already installed that I use to BIAB. I would like to buy some stainless "skin fittings" or equivilent, some kind of stainless fitting for the pump in and out of the pot. I have seen a few on this post but have not had much luck finding any to buy? Also I would like to attach some quick disconnects to these fittings camlocks maybe? any suggestions of a good online store? ANZOR is not far from me but I havent seen anything on their website that looks like what I want? I think I want to use 10mm or 1/2inch silicone tubing.
EDIT I am probably going to start using a 12C little brown pump from craftbrewer.


Also I would like to run my system just on a stc 1000 (simple I know but I already have one and a 40amp SSR) I currently just put the temp probe over the side but would like to get a probe plumbed in. Does anyone sell a replacement probe that would suit a STC1000 similar to the ones people on here are using. 

Thanks guys
JJJ


----------



## tateg

{style_image_url}/attachicon.gif 20131202_200834.jpg
Sorry. Mine is 45mm. Close but no cigar.

Thanks for checking Dave 
Looks the same as the one I got


----------



## tateg

Hi guys
just wondering if anyone had any hot tips on a stand for a 50 litre pot.
kind of like edaks one, looks nice and light plus leaves lots of room for the plumbing

cheers


----------



## Edak

There are a couple of options, but it depends on how much you wish to spend and whether you have any fabrication skills. You could build from scratch, you could get another 50l pot and invert it and cut it to make it look like mine, or you could go to bunnings and buy that clip together aluminium extrusion stuff and cut to size. I did option one, I recommend option 2 as it will be cheaper.


----------



## tateg

There are a couple of options, but it depends on how much you wish to spend and whether you have any fabrication skills. You could build from scratch, you could get another 50l pot and invert it and cut it to make it look like mine, or you could go to bunnings and buy that clip together aluminium extrusion stuff and cut to size. I did option one, I recommend option 2 as it will be cheaper.

Thanks Edak
Maybe your right, cost would outweigh the benefit, when you say aluminum extrusion do you mean those shelves that they have or do they sell it on its own ? 
Cheers


----------



## MastersBrewery

You could use an inverted Big W pot, cut out the majourity of the base,cut down one side and open to the width of the controler. A little streching of what is left of the base may be required. cheap effective and not in the upper realms for skill set


----------



## Edak

Thanks Edak
Maybe your right, cost would outweigh the benefit, when you say aluminum extrusion do you mean those shelves that they have or do they sell it on its own ? 
Cheers
I am taking about that anodised square pipe stuff that joins together with plastic joiners.


----------



## tateg

I am taking about that anodised square pipe stuff that joins together with plastic joiners.

Thanks 
I am just looking at it now 
Should do the job nicely


----------



## aamcle

Happy day feeling well blessed 

I've managed to get some perforated stainless and some stainless mesh but there are some things I would like advice about.

The holes in the mesh are 1.5 to 2mm is this fine enough?
The perforated plate is 2.5 maybe even 3mm thick, how close to the inner diameter of the malt pipe does it need to be? When the plate is in position in the malt tube what should the gap be between the plate and the sides of the malt pipe?

The picture shows the plate and behind it some of the mesh, the key is just to give a sense of scale.

 https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=C6BF22BD82CAE4A0!153&authkey=!AD-i8IWDdXTHTK4&v=3&ithint=photo,.jpg 


Many Thanks. Aamcle


----------



## Edak

Your perforated plate is perfect, your mesh is probably OK but could be finer. The plate pretty much has to go right to the edges. Basically will any of it let grain past?


----------



## aamcle

Thanks Edak, I have some finer mesh but it is very much finer probably too fine.

Do most builds simply have the mesh flat to the edge of the support plate or shaped so that some of the mesh forms a skirt sliding down the mash tube wall?
Think of plunger coffee maker were the filter mesh is shaped so as not to let any grounds past.

Many Thanks. Aamcle


----------



## Edak

My mesh is flat to the plate, sewn together using some stainless wire, that is one strand of that stainless wire used for balconies and such...


----------



## Edak

To be more concise its marine grade balustrade wire. Cheap as chips for two metres.


----------



## lael

Edak said:


> Your perforated plate is perfect, your mesh is probably OK but could be finer. The plate pretty much has to go right to the edges. Basically will any of it let grain past?


I cut my plate for my new larger malt pipe slightly closer inside than I would have preferred. In some parts the gap is up to 2mm I think? I was concerned about it, but have found that the husks and ikea mesh means that virtually nothing comes through. 

Of course, next build I will cut it closer and file it down to fit. 

The mesh and perf looks perfect!


----------



## Deevotronics

Got a 100ltr pot on the go, dual March pumps and 3 phase heating... photos soon. Tuning the PID will be the hardest part. Plan to use typical control kit from Lael, if anyone has tips on large volume PID parameters that would be appreciated.


----------



## aamcle

I'm getting together the plumbing and will be out looking for engineering shops to cut the plates for me.

I have a question about the top plate, on the original it rises and falls as the pump goes on and off (cool  ) but some of the builds seem to have the top filter clamped right across the top of the malt pipe, fixed not moving.

Is there any disadvantage to having the top filter mounted right across the mouth of the malt pipe fixed and not moving?

Dose the system block more often if the top filter plate is not free to move up and down?

Any other disadvantages?

Many Thanks. Aamcle


----------



## djar007

I think it would be better to have it fixed as then you could cycle the pump if you had a stuck sparge. If the place floats then the whole grain bed would raise and lower with the plate making it more difficult to prevent channelling.


----------



## aamcle

If the filter is in effect ' on the top' of the mash tube then even with the pump off if I lift the filter to stir won't the grain get into the outer vessel?


Aamcle


----------



## Edak

No because the water level drops along with the grain. No overflow when the pump is off.


----------



## zlorf

Hi people

I'm trying to wrap my brain around lots of new ideas. This thread is really helpful.

Please can you help me out with a 2 points... I've skimmed this thread but my head is spinning :blink:

1) I would love to have two differently sized vessels (thinking <20L and a 50L) - would it be possible to swap out a single matho-style control box between to the two vessels? I don't anticipate wanting to do this too often, but it would be great to have the ability to do so. Would I have to tweak any code during the swap?

2) I'm struggling to understand the concept of the "bonjuino" gizmo vs the arduino... does one complement the other or is the bonjuino a replacement?

Thanks in advance


----------



## MastersBrewery

why two? if you've only got 1 controller you can use one at a time, to do differing size batches just use different size malt pipes lael does this not sure is linked here. and I'm sure he could give you some tips


----------



## djar007

If your going to make two then you may as well just make another controller. Thats not the expensive part of the build. The common way to go is buy your own arduino from any electronics store. They are pretty cheap to buy already assembled, leaving you with the task of assembling the shield and then putting it all in a box and wiring up the element and pump and plumbing up the pots. If you want to learn how it all came about with the controller then read the arduino development thread and you can see how all the members worked together early on to help develop it and test it. Now its as simple as getting the kit and flashing matho's code onto it . Which is dead simple with the arduino board. Drag and drop. Or just rename file. and upload. 

It would be possible to swap out the boxes. Just using plugs and sockets for your connections out of the box. You may also need to adjust your pid settings for different volumes to help ramp up more efficiently and to prevent overshoot once you get to temp.


----------



## zlorf

Thanks fellas. Arduino ordered... can't wait to have a tinker with it. Cheers.


----------



## aamcle

Temp probe question n others.

Due to limited space both my heating element and my temperature probe will be located under the bottom filter inside the malt pipe, the element is 3kw stainless. Its a smaller system based on a 30 litre urn.

I have a choice, Pt100 with a slower response or a less accurate K type thermocouple.
Considering that when the element is on it can change the temperature quite rapidly what would be the best choice?

Speed or. Accuracy?

Does Mathos controller run the pump as well as the heating?
Does it include a PID function?


Atb. Aamcle


----------



## djar007

It controls pump and an element. It is a pid controller.You need to use a ds18b20 temp probe


----------



## Edak

djar007 said:


> It controls pump and an element. It is a pid controller.You need to use a ds18b20 temp probe


+1
The code is not written to use analogue sensors, not can you plug these into an Arduino without a sophisticated analogue front end.


----------



## aamcle

As it happens I have an Arduino and couple of those temp probes. I don't really like the thing, but as I have made exactly no headway trying to learn OpenAPC (SCADA/HMI) I'll probably fire it up.


Aamcle


----------



## dubbadan

aamcle said:


> Temp probe question n others.Due to limited space both my heating element and my temperature probe will be located under the bottom filter inside the malt pipe, the element is 3kw stainless. Its a smaller system based on a 30 litre urn.I have a choice, Pt100 with a slower response or a less accurate K type thermocouple.Considering that when the element is on it can change the temperature quite rapidly what would be the best choice?Speed or. Accuracy?Does Mathos controller run the pump as well as the heating?Does it include a PID function?Atb. Aamcle


I'd go for accuracy. I use a pt100, it's really not that slow.


----------



## Edak

I love SCADA, but every system is different and has its own nuances. I can fire up ClearSCADA to monitor my brew but don't really need it as I have separate data logging.


----------



## aamcle

Good Evening All.

My build (I'm in the UK) is progressing slowly and steadily but I have one issue still to resolve, one that has troubled any number of ghetto builds, its the malt pipe bottom seal.
I had hoped to use split silicone tube as a seal but it cuts easily and the malt pipe wall is relatively thin so I fear it would cut them tube.

One idea was to split some nylon tube and run that around the bottom of the malt pipe then put the silicone tube over it so that the nylon tube spreads the downwards force of the clamp and the silicone is not cut.

The ideal would be to "thicken" the bottom to the MP, the nylon tube would do that to an extent but its messy I just don't like the idea.

I could make a lot of small vertical cuts in the bottom of the MP and try to bend over the resulting tabs so widening the tube wall but keeping everything even and level might be impossible. 

I'd really appreciate your thoughts about the best way to make the seal or thicken the MP wall.

Many thanks. Aamcle


----------



## Edak

I can't think of a nice solution other than getting someone to roll the bottom edge. Was it a pot? When we cut our inner pots we left the bottom lip on the pot, so a cross section would look like a 'L' where the bottom of said L presses against the silicone.


----------



## aamcle

Its not a pot in the normal sense, its the centre of a ex-army tea urn. 

The other end does have a lip, is much closer to perfectly round and in many ways would be the best choice for the seal.
However I would then have the force of the clamp bearing on a small area of the thin wall of the Malt Pipe I'm afraid it would collapse.

How hard do you have to screw the Malt Pipe clamp down? I might have to reinforce the rim or something or cut a slightly oversize circle of my perforated plate so that the force is spread right around the rim of the malt pipe and use the plate to clamp the malt pipe down.

ATB. aamcle


----------



## real_beer

aamcle said:


> Good Evening All. My build (I'm in the UK) is progressing slowly and steadily but I have one issue still to resolve, one that has troubled any number of ghetto builds, its the malt pipe bottom seal. I had hoped to use split silicone tube as a seal but it cuts easily and the malt pipe wall is relatively thin so I fear it would cut them tube. One idea was to split some nylon tube and run that around the bottom of the malt pipe then put the silicone tube over it so that the nylon tube spreads the downwards force of the clamp and the silicone is not cut. The ideal would be to "thicken" the bottom to the MP, the nylon tube would do that to an extent but its messy I just don't like the idea. I could make a lot of small vertical cuts in the bottom of the MP and try to bend over the resulting tabs so widening the tube wall but keeping everything even and level might be impossible. I'd really appreciate your thoughts about the best way to make the seal or thicken the MP wall. Many thanks. Aamcle


I'm using an old hot water urn for a malt pipe with one of these cut down to size http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/FYNIIQWV%20braumeister/7BRAU+RUBBER+50
You shouldn't have to tighten down too hard on it to get a good seal.

Heres what the inside profile looks like:


----------



## dubbadan

Yeah I was gonna say, can you just use more silicone? Looks like real_beer has a similar idea.


----------



## aamcle

I like the look of that seal and I know were I can get some like it!

I'll go with that if I can - thanks 


Aamcle


----------



## soulglo

Thinking very seriously about putting one of these together.

Any ideas what the biggest pot size would be possible? I'm guessing it all really comes down to how much electricity you have to throw at an element to make enough heat?


----------



## jwollmer

I finished reading through the is complete post as well as the Braubushka site and have decided to build a hybred system with a jacketed kettle to provide insulation during the boil and cooling without an external chiller. To do this I am going to have a kettle custom built. This is where I am looking for some final advice.
Question 1. I remember there was a guideline on the ratio between kettle height and diameter, and I cannot find that post.
Question 2 I want to be able to brew 5 gal and 2.5 gal batches so I realize I will need 2 malt pipes. Could someone please reply with a recommendation on volumes. Since I am custom building kettle I would like to have the option to brew a range of gravity beers.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## real_beer

Hi easydoesit,

You should find everything you need in this link (it should be a pined post using a titanium railway spike in my opinion):

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/69155-bonjuino-and-mathos-controller-30/page-14#entry1117162

The ninth link in the post titled:
Excel file for figuring out if your pot sizes will work for different SG beers.
should help answer your questions.

Custom pot eh! Have your checkbook/credit card handy & whatever you do if your married or have a partner, don't let them see your bank statement! 

Cheers

edit: And download the spreadsheet on this post:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/57924-braumeister-nextgen-build/page-36#entry934295


----------



## lael

Theoretical Pot sizes are pretty irrelevant ( could be any size as long as you get the ratio between the two ok for fluidisation of the malt pipe, covering the element and you have enough power to run the elements needed for the volume you have ) eg: braumeister have a 200L system. The key is really what price it will cost, can you lift the malt pipe (weight)? Can You get the malt pipe to seal properly, and do you have enough pumping power to fluidise the grain bed at the given head it will be at?

If you can balance those things, The sky is the limit. Eg: the Brau 200Lt system they sell has a stand bar and ratchet / pulley system to lift the malt pipe.


----------



## lael

Oh, I suspect malt pipe sealing will be easier the heavier the malt pipe is, but maybe ( hypothesising) it might not seal as evenly all the way around with a larger seal length required for much larger pot.


----------



## jwollmer

Thanks Real beer for the link, that should help a lot. I know fabrication is expensivebt I had a bit of luck, I was at a Christmas party and my nephew is also a brewer so we were discussing my plans and he thought he could pull in some favors from friends at work to build the kettle. Keeping my fingers crossed!!!

I thought for sure I read in the thread that there was a resommended height to diameter ratio for the kettle, Tall and narrow as opposed to short and fat. Does anyone remember that? Was it height should be 2x diameter? Thinking about it taller means more head on the pump, not necessarily a good thing. When I have the sizes worked out I will run it by you experts here before I have it built.

Thanks
Jim


----------



## lael

Oh, that will have to do with the heating efficiency of the pot. I don't remember, but would guess a search on heating element / element sizing would help find those posts.


----------



## jwollmer

I took a stab at the kettle and malt pipe sizing using the spreadsheet. I think I have it in the green for all but the high gravity line. My question is on the Actual Fluidisation in Malt Pipe (L/Kg) column. I know the goal is around 3.65. less and you will get stuck mash, more and you will get wort fountains. I am ranging from 2.92 - 8.

If someone could review the spreadsheet attached and give me your thoughts. I am shooting for 2.5gal and 5gal batch sizes. Also I have allowed 3.8cm between malt pipe and kettle. Is that sufficient?
​Thanks in advance,
Jim 

View attachment Jims_Braumiser_Volume_Calculations.xls


----------



## Superoo

Just a note lads,
You can now design and price up your own custom control panel facia's at our website.

Just go to the 'brew stuff' category at www.eatonlaser.com.au

cheers,
Chris


----------



## aamcle

What are your thoughts on a removable centre rod? I'm using Stainless All Thread and could easily include a "Long Nut/Threaded Socket" at the bottom.

I would gain the ability to use a good size hop basket and have the flexibility to use the unit for other things.

ATB. Aamcle


----------



## lukec

Just a photo of my sparging a ESB. Getting about 80% effiency in every brew these days


----------



## Edak

80 mash efficiency? Or total into fermenter?


----------



## Edak

Also what are the extra bolt heads for low down on the malt pipe?


----------



## tateg

Hi guys 
How high up the pot are you putting the tap? 

Cheers

Edit: using a 50l pot


----------



## real_beer

tateg said:


> Hi guys How high up the pot are you putting the tap? Cheers Edit: using a 50l pot


Not putting one on mine I'm just going to use an auto siphon.


----------



## lukec

80% efficiency, the lower bolts are my cock up when I was drilling during build. To big of a tight arse to buy another pot so just used some spare s/s nuts and bolts to fill holes. Brew went perfect today. Worst thing that happened was I was aiming for 1040 pre boil and got 1044. I was shattered.


----------



## Edak

lukec said:


> 80% efficiency, the lower bolts are my cock up when I was drilling during build. To big of a tight arse to buy another pot so just used some spare s/s nuts and bolts to fill holes. Brew went perfect today. Worst thing that happened was I was aiming for 1040 pre boil and got 1044. I was shattered.


Yeah I was asking at what point you established this efficiency as it is different between mash and brewhouse.


----------



## breakbeer

lukec, why would you be shattered about those numbers? Just add some water & there's your 1040


----------



## lukec

Mash efficiency


----------



## jwollmer

This is a question for Blue Baggers but maybe others can chime in.
I have just finished reading the whole Nextgen thread and am designing my Brau clone. I am going to go with Arnie's braubushka malt pipe version 2 design whis is similar what Blue Baggers is using. I am having trouble with the Volume calculations with this design. They don't seem to work out. Have you done this? If not what are your volumes like? This seems to be the most tricky part. Also I am in the US and having trouble sourcing the elements that most use to bend around the outside, and yours look like an alternative since my malt pipe will not go to the bottom of the kettle. Do these interfere with the whirlpool?
Thanks in advance for the feedback.
Jim


----------



## MastersBrewery

I know that there is a thread on Home Brew Talk about this build, and several members of that site did follow through with their own build, they may have linked a local source for your elements there.

MOD's if this is out of order please let me know


----------



## Sam England

easydoesit said:


> This is a question for Blue Baggers but maybe others can chime in.
> I have just finished reading the whole Nextgen thread and am designing my Brau clone. I am going to go with Arnie's braubushka malt pipe version 2 design whis is similar what Blue Baggers is using. I am having trouble with the Volume calculations with this design. They don't seem to work out. Have you done this? If not what are your volumes like? This seems to be the most tricky part. Also I am in the US and having trouble sourcing the elements that most use to bend around the outside, and yours look like an alternative since my malt pipe will not go to the bottom of the kettle. Do these interfere with the whirlpool?
> Thanks in advance for the feedback.
> Jim


Arvo Easydoesit,
Having to run off memory here as my notes are at home and I haven't brewed since a big Xmas run in late November. With a single BigW pot (19L) as my malt pipe I can get just over 6kg of grain in there with no issues and normally work on 80 - 85% mash efficiency depending on the gravity of the wort. I tend to brew around 25L batches with a pre-boil of around 31L and normally have about 12-14L left over for sparging, so I suppose that gives a mashin of around 23-25L assuming 1L/kg absorption. I have my pump inlet just higher than my elements so I can never expose them when running to avoid burning them out. I tend to minimise the water required during the mashin to give me as much water as possible for sparging. I do this by starting slightly low on volume, turn the pump on and top up until it stops drawing air in. You'll obviously need less water at mashin for higher gravity beers as the grain displaces more water. Also remember you'll pick up extra volume in the system as the water heats up which means you'll need less to cover elements etc (but I wouldn't be cutting it that fine!!). Sorry, haven't ever done any calcs so can't provide them, but I use a standard Aus sized 50L keg as my outer vessel with no issues on the volumes. A mate of mine has built the same system and uses the much larger in diameter Craftbrewer 70L pot as his outer vessel and can still brew the same sized batches as me without any issues. I think his sparge volumes are slightly lower due to the larger diameter, but not too much.

I use hop bags during the boil which means I don't have that much trub left to worry about during whirlpooling. The shape of the keg also causes it to settle nicely in the middle and as my outlet is quite high I have to tilt the kettle to run the last bit of clear wort off the top of the break material left behind. I use the pump to circulate the wort during chilling with an immersion chiller which speeds up the whole chilling process. I will probably be moving to a plate chiller in the near future so won't be as concerned with keeping the wort moving during the chilling process. The elements I used are a bit harder to clean due to the spiral shape, but that's probably their only real downside.

Hope this helps,
BB


----------



## lael

aamcle said:


> What are your thoughts on a removable centre rod? I'm using Stainless All Thread and could easily include a "Long Nut/Threaded Socket" at the bottom. I would gain the ability to use a good size hop basket and have the flexibility to use the unit for other things. ATB. Aamcle


Sounds awesome if possible to still get good seals. I actually am now using a wing nut at the bottom of my stand and swap out the all thread for a bolt when I don't want the center rod in there. Works a treat. oringsandmore size# 204. I use a 3/8" washer (larger OD than a M10 washer) for the bottom of the all thread rod with oringsandmore #309.

Love to see your solution if you get it working.


----------



## lael

easydoesit said:


> I took a stab at the kettle and malt pipe sizing using the spreadsheet. I think I have it in the green for all but the high gravity line. My question is on the Actual Fluidisation in Malt Pipe (L/Kg) column. I know the goal is around 3.65. less and you will get stuck mash, more and you will get wort fountains. I am ranging from 2.92 - 8.
> 
> If someone could review the spreadsheet attached and give me your thoughts. I am shooting for 2.5gal and 5gal batch sizes. Also I have allowed 3.8cm between malt pipe and kettle. Is that sufficient?
> ​Thanks in advance,
> Jim


Hi Jim,

Your sizes look awesome. I didn't pay attention to the distance between the two pots until I started replying. If it is each side (looks like it) it should be fine. It depends on what element you get (how much size does it take), and what you use for bulkheads - here in Aus a lot of people are using skin fitting for boats (myself included). They are about 3cm across at the top. If your pot has a curve at the bottom where the sides meet the bottom - you can't place the skin fitting/bulkhead directly at the edge of the sides, which may cause problems if your malt pipe ends up touching the top of the bulkhead.

I've found that 2.8L is plenty of fluidisation for the malt pipe in practice. With that in mind your sizes will probably be able to do up to just under / on 40L with the larger malt pipe assuming efficiency that is decent.

Does that help? 

View attachment Jims_Braumiser_Volume_Calculations.xls


----------



## jwollmer

Thanks for the response, blue baggers and Lael, It sounds like I am on the right track. Lael, just to be sure I understand , is it OK to have Fluidisation numbers above 3, even up to 8 in some of my scenarios?

Also I understand max grain bill to be the malt pipe full of fluidized grain, screen to screen. In practice does this work when relying on pump breaks to "stir" mash? or do you need to leave room for the mash to drop when pump shuts off?

Thanks
Jim


----------



## jwollmer

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks


----------



## MastersBrewery

In my 3v I move between 3 (double batch) and 5(single batch) for fluidisation, I probably get slightly better efficiency with the single, but I must say 8 seems a little high. Though I have no experience with these high fluid rates, my gut tells me you maybe end up extracting tannins and causing astringency and possible off flavours.


----------



## aamcle

My build is going along the MT is done as are the filter support disks, my current task is the mesh filters. I have some SS mesh but should I be aiming for a flat disk or something more like the filter in a Cafetiere?

Is it possible to shape the mesh if so how?

Alternatively I could coat the inside of the MP with a little release agent drop in the support disk with a flat mesh filter disk on it and run a bead of food grade silicone around the edge were the disk meets the MP wall.
This should stop any short bits of wire working their way out of the filter and get the best possible fit between the filter assembly and the MP.

What do you think is the best way to proceed?

Many Thanks. Aamcle


----------



## 9finger

i have ordered a kit from lael and i am in the United States. Is there anyone who has made one in the United States i could ask some questions about the whole construction including the electrical part?

thanks for your help in advance.


----------



## berto

Hey guys,
I've been following with interest and am starting to get some bits and pieces together for a build. So far have a 42L Palderno pot which I picked up and a planning the rest out now. 
Planning on going with big W 20L pot(s) fora standard 23L batch and will also do some calcsto work out how small a batch I can get from using these pots for the malt pipe and whether I need a smaller pipe option also.
I have plans to pump out the odd high gravity brew so I am starting to build a sheet to do some calcs to work out volumes/gravities etc.
I am undecided as to how to make the malt pipe. In general there seems to be 2 main designs. Open bottom malt pipe clamped down to seal against the base, or connected to the base with camlocks or similar.
At the moment I am leaning towards to cam locks as they see to be a simpler system to build, and I cna always change it from this quite easily.

I have a few quick questions which I am hoping someone can answer for me.
For those connecting with cam locks etc, how high up does your malt pipe sit?
How high is the top of everyones elements using the Ubendit elements?
What is the heat density of the Ubendit elements everyone is using?
If I go for a pot raised slightly on cam locks, I am wondering about using a more standard urn element (provided I get the right heat density) so I can keep the water level as low as possible for smaller batches and higher gravities when I want to.
Also, is a tap on the side necessary, or can I just pump out from the skin fitting on the bottom with a pickup filter of some kind? I think I will use silicon hoses to/from the pump so I can swing these around at the end if necessary

Any help much appreciated. I am getting to the point of trying to pick which way to go and make a decision.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using Tapatalk


----------



## micbrew

g day guys 

been reading about the use of 2 x big w 19l pots ..to gain a bigger malt pipe

who has had best results and by what method of joining the two together ??? bolts silicon ..ive no clue what would work best

I have 1 pot drilled out and ready to go ...now to get to work on cutting the second one etc etc 

jusrt need some info regarding best practice ..

with thanks mick


----------



## lael

micbrew said:


> g day guys
> 
> been reading about the use of 2 x big w 19l pots ..to gain a bigger malt pipe
> 
> who has had best results and by what method of joining the two together ??? bolts silicon ..ive no clue what would work best
> 
> I have 1 pot drilled out and ready to go ...now to get to work on cutting the second one etc etc
> 
> jusrt need some info regarding best practice ..
> 
> with thanks mick


Hi Mick,

They are a tapered pot - which means the height you will gain by stacking them is not that much. If you look at bluebaggers? posts a few pages back I think he stacked some Big W pots. I've stacked two straight wall pots to get a much larger malt pipe, but it is not without its drawbacks. You will probably need to be able to pull them apart after each brew to ensure everything is sanitary. If you look at my build thread you can see what I did for mine.


----------



## lael

berto said:


> Hey guys,
> I've been following with interest and am starting to get some bits and pieces together for a build. So far have a 42L Palderno pot which I picked up and a planning the rest out now.
> Planning on going with big W 20L pot(s) fora standard 23L batch and will also do some calcsto work out how small a batch I can get from using these pots for the malt pipe and whether I need a smaller pipe option also.
> I have plans to pump out the odd high gravity brew so I am starting to build a sheet to do some calcs to work out volumes/gravities etc.
> I am undecided as to how to make the malt pipe. In general there seems to be 2 main designs. Open bottom malt pipe clamped down to seal against the base, or connected to the base with camlocks or similar.
> At the moment I am leaning towards to cam locks as they see to be a simpler system to build, and I cna always change it from this quite easily.
> 
> I have a few quick questions which I am hoping someone can answer for me.
> For those connecting with cam locks etc, how high up does your malt pipe sit?
> How high is the top of everyones elements using the Ubendit elements?
> What is the heat density of the Ubendit elements everyone is using?
> If I go for a pot raised slightly on cam locks, I am wondering about using a more standard urn element (provided I get the right heat density) so I can keep the water level as low as possible for smaller batches and higher gravities when I want to.
> Also, is a tap on the side necessary, or can I just pump out from the skin fitting on the bottom with a pickup filter of some kind? I think I will use silicon hoses to/from the pump so I can swing these around at the end if necessary
> 
> Any help much appreciated. I am getting to the point of trying to pick which way to go and make a decision.
> 
> Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using Tapatalk


Hi berto,
I went the hole in pot method - only cause I figured it would lead to better wort circulation and better efficiency. I'm not sure if that is actually the case, but so far so good for me. I usually pump my wort out from the outside skin fitting - which also aerates the wort into the fermenter (after chilling). I'm not a super experienced brewer - so it might be having a negative impact I'm not aware of.


----------



## lael

easydoesit said:


> Thanks for the response, blue baggers and Lael, It sounds like I am on the right track. Lael, just to be sure I understand , is it OK to have Fluidisation numbers above 3, even up to 8 in some of my scenarios?
> 
> Also I understand max grain bill to be the malt pipe full of fluidized grain, screen to screen. In practice does this work when relying on pump breaks to "stir" mash? or do you need to leave room for the mash to drop when pump shuts off?
> 
> Thanks
> Jim


Hi Jim,

Sorry - didn't see this post till now. I think it should be fine. The only concern would be if the grain bed thickness got too thin and started to allow channeling. To be honest though - at that size... with the amount of time involved to make a batch, wouldn't you just double batch it? Worst case scenario you cube one for later?


----------



## jwollmer

Hi all,

I am having trouble sourcing the right pots for my braumiser clone. I have been looking at a recirculating BiAB options. The biggest benefit I see in the Braumiser setup is the pump breaks allowing the mash to fall and in effect stir. I know many of you have BIAB background so I thought I would seek your input. I was thinking recirculating so I could use the brauduino to manage mash schedule.


Thoughts?

Thanks

Jim


----------



## Fabrizio

Nobody mentioned about a safety contactor in the power line that goes to the element. Eventually the SSR may leak some power and it can be dangerous.
Does anybody included this feature in the control box?


----------



## Edak

Fabrizio said:


> Nobody mentioned about a safety contactor in the power line that goes to the element. Eventually the SSR may leak some power and it can be dangerous.
> Does anybody included this feature in the control box?


please explain?

If you mean an RCD then it has been mentioned before. Ensure you have a safety switch or an online RCD.


----------



## micbrew

hi guys

im in the process of building a bm clone 
and am wondering what is the best method of securing the 12mm s/steel rod to the base of my mash tun

drill hole and use hex lock nuts with silicone washers to seal
as this will be what the top and bottom filter plates will be used as a locating pin
could be prone to leaking :unsure:

or is there a better method


----------



## MastersBrewery

micbrew said:


> hi guys
> 
> im in the process of building a bm clone
> and am wondering what is the best method of securing the 12mm s/steel rod to the base of my mash tun
> 
> drill hole and use hex lock nuts with silicone washers to seal
> as this will be what the top and bottom filter plates will be used as a locating pin
> could be prone to leaking :unsure:
> 
> or is there a better method


as you describe as yet I have not heard of any one with leaking probs


----------



## Edak

Use thread tape where necessary too. Silicone washers work against the flats.


----------



## Cocko

Hi Guys,

I am in the process of frequenting a forum... and this thread use to supply some inspirational stuff.

Any chance you guys have cameras? or are actually building something?

Just asking.

h34r:


----------



## Edak

Cocko said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am in the process of frequenting a forum... and this thread use to supply some inspirational stuff.
> 
> Any chance you guys have cameras? or are actually building something?
> 
> Just asking.
> 
> h34r:


Damn right, everyone has seen my build, I want to see some of yours...


----------



## Cocko

TWSS.


----------



## Fabrizio

Edak said:


> please explain?
> 
> If you mean an RCD then it has been mentioned before. Ensure you have a safety switch or an online RCD.


Edak,
Sorry if i did not make myself clear. In portuguese contactor and relay are the same.
In several electric control panels there are relays that can power or disable the heating elements.
Those relays are used to change between vessels (like HLT and Boil) and to disable the heating element for safety issues.
We know that the cheap Chinese SSR (and even the better ones) can leak some current when they should be off.
This can be dangerous and despite the RCD / GFCI and other protection devices, it is very common to use this relays as another safety measure as you can disable physically the element. 
These relays are also commonly used in conjunction with an emergency push button to disable the power supply of the circuit.
Thanks
Fabrizio


----------



## Edak

If you are implying using a physical relay in series with the SSR then you are crazy. I have never seen it before.


----------



## Fabrizio

Edak said:


> If you are implying using a physical relay in series with the SSR then you are crazy. I have never seen it before.





Here's one...


And another. Now you have seen it. And i'm not crazy.
The ability to disable the heating element is a constant issue in all wiring diagrams in Electric Brewing section of Home Brew Talk. All diagrams show a contactor for this.
Look for "list of P-J diagrams" and you will see it.
But, nevermind. Thanks.
Fabrizio


----------



## djar007

So are you talking about an emergency stop fabrizio? If not I would have thought that the Arduino unit would act as a relay or switch to break the live wire. I thought that was the reason for not switching the neutral? Interested to read more on this. Regards dave.


----------



## Edak

Fabrizio said:


> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1393293265.031355.jpg
> Here's one...
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1393293312.527230.jpg
> And another. Now you have seen it. And i'm not crazy.
> The ability to disable the heating element is a constant issue in all wiring diagrams in Electric Brewing section of Home Brew Talk. All diagrams show a contactor for this.
> Look for "list of P-J diagrams" and you will see it.
> But, nevermind. Thanks.
> Fabrizio


Nah still crazy!  (you know that's a joke right?) Remember that HBT is still a forum of people with opinions just as we are a forum of people with opinions, none are immediately considered right but that being said, from my observation, nowhere in that 31-page HBT thread does it mention leakage current of the SSR's. The SSR is to combine with an 'override' button that disconnects both active and neutral. It's perfectly acceptable to only turn one off (see my attached image from the same thread) thus the relay is not necessary. 

Yes, it's true that an SSR, while off will allow close to 1/1000 of the current pass through, which means a couple of milliamps from Active to Neutral. Protecting yourself from this seems pointless in the event that you have an RCD because the user will never, ever, ever be exposed to the few milliamps. If they were exposed then they would have worse problems such as when the SSR is on and the full current is flowing! 

Now you could have an override (switch or contactor in your case) because it does add an additional layer of safety. Do you see one in the original BM? No. Do you see it in 90% of SSR applications? No. Should you use it if you have hard-wired your panel (no IEC lead)? Probably... Am I going to do it? No. My manual override is the power cord, which is just as good if not better than an override switch.


----------



## lael

I was going to comment that most brau boxes will have the cord with a socket - can pull out in an emergency. And in Aus the main switch already has breakers built in. Fabrizio - I think you talking about building another breaker into the unit itself? How much of an advantage is that vs the breaker built into the switchboard? Honestly - with electricity... why not is one of my thoughts - if it makes you safer / feel safer.


----------



## dblunn

Just to add my 2c. It makes sense to add some control circuitry when you have a wall mounted control box feeding multiple heating elements like seen in a brew sculpture where you want to ensure only one element is powered at an time. With the BM it is a stand alone unit with a single vessel being heated so the complexity is not really warranted.

As far as safety goes, well the failure modes are 1. short circuit (active to neutral) - large current flow trips CB, 2. small leakage current (active to earth) trips RCD. 3. Cooked because of no water in vessel, goes open circuit or possibly case 1 or 2.

If you plan on opening up the box for any reason then you would first unplug it from the wall. Also every component added to the system is another possible point of failure, but you of course free to build it as you see fit.
Regards, Dave


----------



## Fabrizio

Edak said:


> Nah still crazy!  (you know that's a joke right?) Remember that HBT is still a forum of people with opinions just as we are a forum of people with opinions, none are immediately considered right but that being said, from my observation, nowhere in that 31-page HBT thread does it mention leakage current of the SSR's. The SSR is to combine with an 'override' button that disconnects both active and neutral. It's perfectly acceptable to only turn one off (see my attached image from the same thread) thus the relay is not necessary.
> 
> Yes, it's true that an SSR, while off will allow close to 1/1000 of the current pass through, which means a couple of milliamps from Active to Neutral. Protecting yourself from this seems pointless in the event that you have an RCD because the user will never, ever, ever be exposed to the few milliamps. If they were exposed then they would have worse problems such as when the SSR is on and the full current is flowing!
> 
> Now you could have an override (switch or contactor in your case) because it does add an additional layer of safety. Do you see one in the original BM? No. Do you see it in 90% of SSR applications? No. Should you use it if you have hard-wired your panel (no IEC lead)? Probably... Am I going to do it? No. My manual override is the power cord, which is just as good if not better than an override switch.


Edak, I`m a homebrewer. Yes, crazy! hahahaha 



lael said:


> I was going to comment that most brau boxes will have the cord with a socket - can pull out in an emergency. And in Aus the main switch already has breakers built in. Fabrizio - I think you talking about building another breaker into the unit itself? How much of an advantage is that vs the breaker built into the switchboard? Honestly - with electricity... why not is one of my thoughts - if it makes you safer / feel safer.





dblunn said:


> Just to add my 2c. It makes sense to add some control circuitry when you have a wall mounted control box feeding multiple heating elements like seen in a brew sculpture where you want to ensure only one element is powered at an time. With the BM it is a stand alone unit with a single vessel being heated so the complexity is not really warranted.
> 
> As far as safety goes, well the failure modes are 1. short circuit (active to neutral) - large current flow trips CB, 2. small leakage current (active to earth) trips RCD. 3. Cooked because of no water in vessel, goes open circuit or possibly case 1 or 2.
> 
> If you plan on opening up the box for any reason then you would first unplug it from the wall. Also every component added to the system is another possible point of failure, but you of course free to build it as you see fit.
> Regards, Dave


Edak, Lael and Dave,
My major concern is because of a few physical limitations on my house where my brew sculpture/setup will be will at least 5/6 meters away from the power outlet, so unplugging it in an emergency will be very time consuming and can cause major problems. I`m trying to avoid possible (eventual) problems in this build.
I have built another electrical control panel with that have this kind of safety device, and I was just keeping the same thinking because of the distance from the outlet.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/77687-need-help-for-my-panel-220v-no-neutral-and-limited-power-input/
Thanks
Fabrizio


----------



## MastersBrewery

I think most of these systems are only using 240v 10amp supplies, so wouldn't a simple 240v switch on the incomming hot leg suffice?


----------



## pat_00

So, after fooling around with a top draining bagless BIAB type setup I've decided to restart this project. After a lot of stuck mashes and draining problems with my last setup, I see the attraction of pumping upwards through the grain bed.

To simplify things (or maybe not), I have bought the braumeister top and bottom filter plates and seal from G&G. Now all I really need to finish this project is a pipe for the malt tube.

Does anyone know where I can find stainless 270mm diameter pipe/tube? I'm not having much luck...


----------



## tateg

pat_00 said:


> So, after fooling around with a top draining bagless BIAB type setup I've decided to restart this project. After a lot of stuck mashes and draining problems with my last setup, I see the attraction of pumping upwards through the grain bed.
> 
> To simplify things (or maybe not), I have bought the braumeister top and bottom filter plates and seal from G&G. Now all I really need to finish this project is a pipe for the malt tube.
> 
> Does anyone know where I can find stainless 270mm diameter pipe/tube? I'm not having much luck...


G&G will also sell the BM 20L Malt Pipe


----------



## spog

pat_00 said:


> So, after fooling around with a top draining bagless BIAB type setup I've decided to restart this project. After a lot of stuck mashes and draining problems with my last setup, I see the attraction of pumping upwards through the grain bed.
> 
> To simplify things (or maybe not), I have bought the braumeister top and bottom filter plates and seal from G&G. Now all I really need to finish this project is a pipe for the malt tube.
> 
> Does anyone know where I can find stainless 270mm diameter pipe/tube? I'm not having much luck...


I have not payed too much attention to this topic, so dunno if this is any good but what about some stainless steel flue or maybe cutting the bottom of a cheap stock pot .?
Cheers...spog...


----------



## angus_grant

The problem you will have using the BM filters is that normal standard cooking stock pots are generally a square ratio (mine is 40cm diameter * 40cm high). You will be looking for brewing pot or custom tube.

You may be lucky finding a stainless steel tube for some other purpose (flue as spog suggested) but you will have to hit the Internet hard.

I guess you could shorten the search and just buy the BM 20L malt pipe for the 50L system. An expensive way to go but at least you are guaranteed the BM filters will match up exactly to your malt pipe and will be a working solution from the get go.


----------



## pat_00

That's what I've found so far.

Stock pots are either square or tapered,so they won't work. Will have a look at flues.

The 20l malt pipe for the 50l BM won't fit the 20l filter plates  I will see if they sell replacement 20l maltpipes, might save some headaches.


----------



## djar007

Get one custom made by a fabricator. Tell them you want the bottom plate welded on. Wouldn't be a massive job.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

A friend of mine makes stainless duct and the last time I was at his factory he had quite a few excess pieces of stainless ducting, if you are interested I will find out more about what diameters he has available.


----------



## pat_00

thanks PMed you the details.

DJar: Why would I want the bottom plate welded on?


----------



## djar007

Just an option I prefer on my rig.


----------



## Edak

djar007 said:


> Just an option I prefer on my rig.


Wouldn't that make it a malt pot rather than a malt pipe? Others have joined/stacked the bigw pots, that's what I would do if I had to increase the capacity, it's quick and easy.


----------



## jwollmer

Does anyone know the diameter of the malt pipe on a 20l braumeister?

Thanks
Jim


----------



## Edak

270mm diameter, 365mm tall.


----------



## pat_00

I have also read 280mm. i am waiting on my filter plates to arrive so I can measure them.

I have found a source on 316 pipe that should work if it is 270mm OD. But it is 4.19mm thick! Which according to my calculations would make it 10.2 KG just for the malt pipe!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Pat, if you don't weld the bottom on, how was you thinking of lifting it without leaving the grain behind?
I am sure that the Braumeister would probably have had a welded bottom perforated plate but it is cheaper to get a lip rolled into the malt tube by a machine than to get the plate welded in.


----------



## lael

I would drill three holes in the side near the bottom - say 10mm up from the edge and put three 10x20mm / similar stainless bolts in - can use oringsandmore #204 for sealing them on the inside. . Let the plate rest on them. a 4mm stainless tube? that is going to be heavy with grain etc!


----------



## pat_00

That was my plan. Or depending on how tight the filter plates fit around the central rod, maybe just a spacer on there? The price on the 4.2mm is OK, but the weight will be a lot and I don't like the idea of trying to drill 4.2mm stainless either 

I am looking into having a piece custom rolled out of sheet.


----------



## nainsook

The 50l brewmiester has two malt pipes one for single the other for double batches. I was wondering why you couldn't get away with one large malt pipe, and have some slits cut around the circumference halfway down. So wort can flow through the slits for the single batch. To make a double you block the slits. 

I was thinking of using a strap/belt of stainless steel lined with silicone. Secured using a latch.




What do you think?
Any thought on this why it would or wouldn't work would be much appreciated.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

You could probably get a hose clamp that size to go around the tube,just wondering if the toggle clamps would work using two pieces of tube with four toggle clamps to clamp them together when doing a 50 litre batch, should hold the weight of the grain when lifting the tube out.


----------



## Edak

This will not work because your top screen won't be held in place when doing a small batch and is likely to be pushed up higher than the slits, releasing the grain...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

If he went with the slits he would just need a piece of tube as a spacer to hold the screen in position.


----------



## pat_00

I like the idea of an adjustable malt pipe. It's the only weakness of the BM design IMHO.

I should have one of the a filter plates tomorrow, G&G only had one in stock (second should be here in 2 weeks). Then I can take accurate measurements for the maltpipe.


----------



## nainsook

Edak said:


> This will not work because your top screen won't be held in place when doing a small batch and is likely to be pushed up higher than the slits, releasing the grain...


Good point. My plan was to have a spacer between the bar that locks in the malt pipe and the screen. or a second nut on the ss rod that holds down the screen supports . I am still in the design phase.


----------



## pat_00

It just came in, so I can confirm the BM 20L Filter plate is 266m across.

So I would assume a 270mm OD pipe that is around 1mm WT would be what I want. This would give 1mm clearance all around the edge of the plate.

The hunt continues....


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I reckon Pat the cheapest way would be to buy the Braumeister malt pipe, if you have to get one rolled and welded as a one off it will cost big dollars, is there any reason you couldn't use the BM malt pipe?


----------



## pat_00

That might be the way I end up going. But I've been told by a couple of places that they don't stock them and if they can get them it will be months to get one in.

Just trying to see if I can re-purpose something already available.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

A suggestion Pat would be to source a tube from overseas, I bought my BM from a retailer in Germany saved myself a lot of money, no gst and the freight was only 80 euro, the box was a replica of a Tiger tank no damage whatsoever, depends how they ship the spares.Wouldn't hurt to drop them an email to find out may even be able to get one direct.


----------



## lael

I was looking on aliexpress for possible fermenting pots and found these pots:

http://www.aliexpres...1464526416.html

or: http://www.aliexpres...1167198269.html

Ideal malt pipe sizes for a double/ larger brau size - The milk tea ones they said $110 for 30cmD x 50cm tall delivered - be great for those wanting a taller malt pipe and already using the BigW pipe (depends on actual ID of course... but one more plate to up the capacity isn't that much of a hassle in my mind.)

Awesome to see some perfect malt-pipe sized pots. I'm asking about some large ones (35x60) now - I would be tempted to see if they can do the same diameter shorter so that you can use one set of plates, and toss the BigW pot. Also going to ask if they can make / source a perf steel disc for the inside - that should be interesting...


----------



## djar007

Have you thought about a local fabricator making a decent one for you?


----------



## lael

djar007 said:


> Have you thought about a local fabricator making a decent one for you?


Hey djar - was that to me? If so - yes! But as wide eyed pointed out above - it's expensive FAST. I think the off-hand ballpark was something like 300. I'll be in touch with him tomorrow and can check - but pretty sure that was around right.


----------



## bigbanko

I bought an original malt pipe from Grain and Grape in Melbourne. It was $130 + postage and took only 2 weeks to arrive. Call and talk to Chris.


----------



## jwollmer

I am still looking for a cheaper option to the chugger pump that I can source in the US. I came across this on on ebay, what do you'd think.

Food grade, 600L/H, 3.8 M head, good to 100C.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-High-Quality-DC-12V-Magnetic-Electric-Centrifugal-Water-Pump-Hot-New-ES9P-/281238316124?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

Thanks
Jim


----------



## lael

easydoesit said:


> I am still looking for a cheaper option to the chugger pump that I can source in the US. I came across this on on ebay, what do you'd think.
> 
> Food grade, 600L/H, 3.8 M head, good to 100C.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-High-Quality-DC-12V-Magnetic-Electric-Centrifugal-Water-Pump-Hot-New-ES9P-/281238316124?_trksid=p2054897.l4275
> 
> Thanks
> Jim


I'm not sure... as per : http://kaixinpump.en.alibaba.com/product/672662526-213880370/MP_15RM_High_temperature_resistant_magnetic_pump.html the only thing to do is to bite the bullet, buy one and report back... someone here in aus took a chance, tried it - turned out to be good - lots of us got them. It looks very very similar to the little brown pump that lots of people got - which may work well, or may break depending on what you get. I would recommend getting a kaixin and biting the bullet on the cost - or get the chugger or march pump - most people here would buy a march if shipping was not so $$ I suspect. 

With the kaixins you might find that buying 2 has similar shipping to 1 pump... if that helps at all.

Cheers,

Lael


----------



## jwollmer

Do you purchase the Kaixin pump from alibaba? I have never purchased from there, but I noticed minimum order of 50. How does this work?

Thanks


----------



## wide eyed and legless

easydoesit said:


> Do you purchase the Kaixin pump from alibaba? I have never purchased from there, but I noticed minimum order of 50. How does this work?
> 
> Thanks


You can ask for a sample when buying from Alibaba, but shipping one over may cost more than what you could get it from KK for.


----------



## Ramps

Easy
AliExpress is the more retail side of Alibaba
I got 3 Kaixins ...came to about $62 each from memory
Long wait ... typically about 4 weeks but the dealers don't get the dollars until you acknowledge you have the product in your hands ... good buyer protection
Had a _many _a thing (electronics, meters, SS fittings, pumps, more electronics, Arduinoo boards and compatible stuff, etc) bought from this site while building my Braumiser one minor wrong product (bunch of LED's)... new ones sent out as soon as I brought it up no return, no charge. and one other wrong product ... (wrong voltage on a temp controller) money returned immediately no product return ... ordered again
so cheap and reliable if you can wait


----------



## matho

So I brewed for the first time with the updated controller (from PIC to brauduino) last monday, great brewday everything went smoothly

cheers steve


----------



## lael

matho said:


> So I brewed for the first time with the updated controller (from PIC to brauduino) last monday, great brewday everything went smoothly
> 
> cheers steve


Any different?


----------



## livetoride

Sorry to go off topic a bit here but i was wondering if anyone else had any luck with any other pots other than the big w stock pot?

I tried to get get one in-store today and was told they had none and went looking like getting any back in, when i checked online there not available there or at any other store apart from whats on the floor by the looks of it.


----------



## lael

livetoride said:


> Sorry to go off topic a bit here but i was wondering if anyone else had any luck with any other pots other than the big w stock pot?
> 
> I tried to get get one in-store today and was told they had none and went looking like getting any back in, when i checked online there not available there or at any other store apart from whats on the floor by the looks of it.


What size are you after? Any 30cm x 30cm pot will do (probably slightly larger and better than Big W...


----------



## livetoride

Cheers lael just remembered that the big w pot was the most quoted so I thought that was the best! Ill have a look around my local stores to find a suitable replacment!


----------



## lael

Cheap and available therefore 'best'


----------



## lukec

Hey Everyone,
was feeling a bit motivated yesterday doing 50 Pale 50 Wheat Hefeweizen. Made short vid of my rig in action on youtube for anyone whos interested.
Was filmed in hd but had to dumb it down a little to put it up



Let me know what you think


----------



## real_beer

lukec said:


> Let me know what you think


Terrific job! Once you put the knob on I'd give it 10 out of 10 :lol:

Well done it looks great.


----------



## MastersBrewery

agree with above, looks like making beer the easy way to me! :beerbang:


----------



## lael

Looks great! What is the stainless filter you used under the top plate?

edit: - how are the three legs attached at the bottom of the pot? (50L keggle?)


----------



## arzaman

Hi
I’m actively working to my second generation of Braumesiter clone (single vessel brewing system) and compared to the first release I have

· Increased the volume usinga 50L thermo pot and a 35L malt pipe
· Moved definitely to camlock sealing (is main weakness in current set up)
· And off course introducing full process automation (currently I have just a PID Sestos thermo regulator) through the super Open ArdBir control system derived from Matho’s controller with lot of fix and new features

In order to have both a central threaded rod in order to fix easily the pipe and central camlock I have adopted this strategy: the rod pass through the camlock and is fixed to the bottom of Y (or tee) fitting. The 3/4 ‘’ bore and 8mm rod diameter ensure enough space for worth flow . In this way when you fix the pipe on the top you also tight the camlock. Removing the bottom fitting plug you can also remove the threaded rod

Following picture are self-explaining…what do you think about?


















I would like also to introduce a different solution for the bottom filter: since I have just the camlook in the middle of the malt pipe as output channel and not the full surface I would like to use a sort of compact filter avoiding empty space between the false bottom and the pipe.

I have tried to build this filter starting from a strainer (other shape can be sued) that in some way I can fix at the bottom of the pipe with a central hole for the threaded rod 






Here some picture, do you see any drawbacks both during the worth recirculation and worth filtering at the end? Is there any risk to create preferred path and non-uniform recirculation or to have trouble during filtration?










Thank you for support
Ciao
Davide


----------



## djar007

Apart from the loss of room in the Mt for grain I like the look of that. How can you ensure it doesn't create channelling up the middle? Is there any way to put a flat cap inside the strainer to direct some of the wort horizontally to help with that. If I am to build another then that would be my biggest concern. Even distribution of return wort accross the malt pipe. Some type of manifold setup may help. I have even been trying with the idea of a cip cleaning ball. I love the setup and look forward to seeing the rest of the build. Regards dave.


----------



## lukec

The filter under the top plate is 316 stainless mesh. I acquired a roll of I from a local scrap yard for the scrap cost per kg in stainless. So it was about $15. 
All the legs are welded on and so are the bushes for the pump connections. 



lael said:


> Looks great! What is the stainless filter you used under the top plate?
> 
> edit: - how are the three legs attached at the bottom of the pot? (50L keggle?)


----------



## lael

I would be interested to see what efficiencies you get. Its my hunch/guess that the high efficiencies achieved in Brau systems are due to a highly open bottom plate that gives great flow through the entire grain bed. I'm not sure you will get that without a little dead space - you don't need much! I think in my systems it would be between 1-2cmax. 

If you are using a cam lock I don't think you need a center rod. I would do something like three bolts around the top rim of the pot.

Mash in, Put the top plate in, slide the bolts in place and use wing nuts to lock it in place. I think you would need a thick top plate though (2mm works well). 

That said - it looks like your system is pretty much ready to go - maybe try it and see how it goes!


----------



## jwollmer

I remember reading about a member that was selling face plates for the Braumiser controller box. I can't find that thread, can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks


----------



## jwollmer

Also I am having trouble sourcing a bendable heating element in the US. Anyone found a decent option?

Thanks again


----------



## MastersBrewery

face plates are by superoo his site


----------



## jwollmer

Thanks Over Carbed, they look nice!


----------



## MastersBrewery

Elements are avaliable from here


----------



## jwollmer

Thanks mastersbrewery, do most go with Incoloy? Stainless is pretty expensive.

Are you in the US?


----------



## MastersBrewery

nah in Australia that link was from this thread on a US site, you may want to search that site for further links for 'Braumiser' as that may lead you to even cheaper elements. Yes it's the same rig by the master himself


----------



## jwollmer

Regarding Elements on Omega.com it looks lie 2 options work well for me. Given my kettle diameter and wanting to only have 2 coils it looks like I have a max length of 80" or 203cm. I know most use Incoloy but there is a copper offering as well.
Incoloy 30 watts/in 3000W 70" $185 TRI-7045/240V
Incoloy 30 watts/in 3250W 78" $200 TRI-7845/240V
Copper 53 watts/in 3300W 70" $135 TRC-7048/240V
Stainless 50 watts/in 3000W 54" $195 TRSS-5465/240V

2 questions
1) copper vs Incoloy vs Stainless one better or worse then the other?
2) is 53 watts/in a risk to scorch wort?


----------



## lael

mine are incoloy - http://www.tobins.com.au/TescoCatalogue2014.pdf#page=2 - bm73HO - which is 1w per mm appx I guess. When I bought mine they said they could handle boil dry scenarios - which was a big factor in my thinking. I do get some stuff sticking to the element, but it cleans up pretty easily with an OLD nylon scrubber (so soft) and some sod. perc. in warm water. If you are willing to take more time I am sure a longer soak would clean it up all nicely..


----------



## lehtinel

First post, forgive all possible mistakes. I'll start by thanking everyone that has posted pictures, suggestions and links here, and especially to Mathos for the designing, coding and whatnot. 

I'll start my build by doing the control box, should be all clear (been soldering some headphone amps and stuff so I will go smoothly).

But: 

The pots, I live in Europe (Glasgow, Scotland until september this year and then back to Finland), what I can find here cheap and good (I think) are these:

Main tank would be this, readily isolated so the brewing process should benefit: 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Edelstahl-Thermoport-Thermobehaelter-60-Liter-Neuware-/351038279448?

And mash tun would be this: 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/380877763834

The pump woud be the same as the orig. Braumeister uses AFAIK, Vortex BW-512:

http://www.deutsche-vortex.de/index.php?id=103&L=1

Having a little problems on sourcing the heating element here in Europe, any help on that would be appreciated, Omega.com seems to be one choice. 

Now with the tank volumes I calculated the max grain bill to around 9kg, and that would make for a nice sized batch at once. But will one, say, 2500w element be enough for the vessels sizes? I guess the pump would be up to the job, although when comparing to the 20/50l Braumeisters my pots seem to be in the middle, with the outer being 450x450mm and the inner 350x350mm.


----------



## MastersBrewery

On the weekend with Lael, we did a 10.3kg grain bill in 350x350 malt pipe, that is probably the absolute limit, efficiency didn't seem to suffer too much.


----------



## angus_grant

Man, 10kgs is epic.

Thought I'd pop my head back in to this thread and let everyone know that I have eventually got my brau-clone producing beer. http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/65940-introducing-brewton/page-7#entry1159243
Only 5.5kgs for me though. I'll need to work out the efficiency as BrewMate calculated figures of 79% for my 23L batch. It was meant to be 1053 but came out at 1060 and produced 25L of wort (so should get a keg and a few bottles), so quite happy with that. I'll bump my efficiency up to 79% and see what the next batch works out at.

Awesome to finally be producing beer with my system. It has been a VERY long time coming. Was a much easier process that BIAB. No need to constantly make sure mash is recirculating, bag is off element, etc, etc. Had a beer and sat listening to the pump winding over and wort trickling over while planning how to sparge out. Will have to fix that before the next batch which is this weekend with a couple of boys coming around.

Pleased with how clear the wort ends up. This was about 30 mins in to 60min mash





There always has to be something ghetto with my system. I have an idea to solve my sparging problem. Should hopefully be a one-person solution. Will get around to building a hoist system but not going to happen just yet.





Hmm, just found some online efficiency calculators which provide estimated efficiencies without taking particular grain varieties into account. 88% to 90% which seems way too high..... I must be entering something incorrectly.

5.5kgs BB Ale malt
1060 SG at end of boil (temp corrected refractometer reading and confirmed with temp corrected hydrometer reading)
25L into fermentor last night

What other details are needed to provide some figures? I'm just a bit dubious of getting 88% efficiency. It was my first time sparging and last runnings were 1025 coming out of the bottom of the malt pipe.


----------



## lael

MastersBrewery said:


> On the weekend with Lael, we did a 10.3kg grain bill in 350x350 malt pipe, that is probably the absolute limit, efficiency didn't seem to suffer too much.


I would like to claim we pushed it that far... was a tad smaller @9.3kg. the malt pipe is just on 33cmID (the outside of the rolled rim is 35cm...), and 35cm tall. Minus 3cm of height for the grain capacity (plates 1cm from top and bottom + a little spare for good measure) gives about 27L - which is just on a fluidisation of 3.0L/kg grain. I think the lowest you want to go is around 2.8L/Kg - I'll have to try it some time and report back. Efficiency of that one was supposed to be 28L 1.071 preboil. Numbers were pretty bang on - I think I was a little higher than that after sparging - allowing for an effiency in the low 90s. I suspect that when you push the limit too far your efficiency drops far enough that it is not worthwhile trying to cram the malt into the pipe. I'll try a bigger grain bill soon though just for kicks. Maybe that Traquair house ale recipe I was looking at....


----------



## MastersBrewery

ah well got the .3 right anyway


----------



## lael

That was the memorable part


----------



## stevemc32

Getting closer.

3mm top and bottom plates cos that was all to be found in the offcuts bin at M&S today... Shouldn't have any bending problems.





Realised I stuffed up on the pump drive and built the system for a 12V pump. Do you guys just run another SSR for a 240V pump using the 12V relay to switch?


----------



## lael

Looks nice! 3mm thick? wow. epic. how much did it cost you?

Yep - the 12v from the pump output goes to the ssr, 220 on the other side of the ssr. What pots did you go with?


----------



## stevemc32

The perforated stainless offcut was 40 bucks for 400mm x 1000mm x 3mm so enough to make two plates with one stuff up. Plus a $1.50 cutting disc for every 500mm or so of cut with the small angle grinder. Definitely happy with the price on that one and they do have a few more thinner perf sections in the offcuts bin at M&S but most of the 2mm or above stuff wasn't wide enough.

The main is about 60l and the malt pipe is a Big W 19l and I got a second one for an extension if needed.


----------



## lael

Nice find! Did they have any more 3mm? Lol to the cut off discs. I've used one diamond cutoff for everything so far. Think it was a more expensive one though.


----------



## stevemc32

There was some thicker stuff in up to 150mm wide but nothing else around 300mm wide. Lots of thinner stuff that could definitely be used with some bracing though. I'll have to check out the diamond cutoff discs, thought they were mainly used for concrete or stone grinding?


----------



## lael

Yeah, normally. I was discussing the issues of cutting stainless with someone and he gave me the disc he had and told me to try it. Has worked well. Ymmv...

It was one bought from a fibreglass materials supply store, but I assume they are similar.


----------



## arzaman

The clone 2.0 is proceeding well and all the mechanical and hydraulic part are almost completed

I have also performed a "wet run" and even if the set up tuning is not complete I'm quite satisfied and camlock is a great improvement in sealing. The threaded rod in the middle doesn't cause any issue. Even the filter with the strainer seems OK and reduce the pump flow turbulence without flow restriction. In my opinion could help spreading water without channeling

Next step is to set up the electronic part off course based on magi open ArdBir 


http://makezine.com/2014/03/28/homebrewing-and-arduino-the-perfect-recipe/


Stay tuned


----------



## northernbrewer

Hey lael. I thought you didn't need the SSR for the pump when running 240v. Isn't the board capable of switching the 240 because of the low amps or did I read the diagram wrong?


----------



## lael

Sorry, yes - the SSR is for the heating element. The relay (on the board is for the pump). From memory just run the power (active) for the pump in and out of the pump terminals. Check the wiring diagrams in the manuals first though.


----------



## stevemc32

Right, no SSR for the pump then, thanks guys.

It's getting closer now, I'm just waiting on the pump and some plumbing and will still have to re-wire the box for a more suitable plug for the 240V pump but it's almost done.


----------



## djar007

Looks great mate.

Here is a couple of pics of my brewday. Setup near perfect for me now. Here I am making a Belgian Dubblel. Got 50 litres into the fermenter. Which is a good size for my equipment. Just an average size brew.Could easily get another ten litres but dont really need to. Will have ample room for higher gravity beers. But just trying to perfect simpler styles at the moment. At least repeatability is easy enough and my largest variables are on fermentation and yeast health.


----------



## stevemc32

Thanks djar007, hopefully it'll be a successful as yours looks to be.


----------



## lael

Looking awesome! What sizes are your pots djar?
Edit: and what is the ring around the inside of the top filter plate?


----------



## djar007

My pot sizes are 450wide 465deep large pot
350wide 420deep malt pipe.

The ring is reinforced with a stainless steel band. Sorry the pic is so blurry.


----------



## lael

djar - that looks great! from memory you have a 3v you brew on too? Which system do you prefer?


fruther to http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/57924-braumeister-nextgen-build/page-76#entry1159948 masters' post - I was looking back at my build thread and noticed this one: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/72377-laels-braumiser-build/#entry1088618 where I DID actually squeeze in 10.9Kg of grain.... (checked beersmith, it was 10.89, not 10.8 even...) which is a fluidisation ratio of 2.6 according to my spreadsheet. The top plate was pushing up solidly against the reinforcing plates, though it held fine. I don't remember whether I ran the grain through once or twice through the mill - I think twice, and now I tend to just do it once through the mashmaster mini @ the fourth notch (1.4mm?) once so prob have less flour now. Efficiency was 80% in the mash compared to normal low 90%s... 

so... I would prob stick with recommend a fluidisation ratio of 2.7/2.8 as a minimum target.


----------



## jwollmer

I am making progress but thinks just screwed up I soldered in the micro match ribbon cable connector and it looked great until I realized with it on I cannot plug in the USB connection. I am guessing it needs to go on the other side of the board. If someone could confirm that before I unsolder and try to reuse I would appreciate it. 


Lael, thanks for the response on the elements, I found a supplier in the US but over $200. I am trying to see if I can get the elements that Blue Baggers used in his build to work. I an doing a modified cam lock malt pipe, like Arnie.

Thanks for all the help!


----------



## lael

Looks normal! You can't plug in the USB once the micro match is on. The 12v power that comes from the power supply powers the arduino (through the shield). Glad you posted before de-soldering it!


----------



## jwollmer

How do you program if you can't connect the USB?


----------



## livetoride

You shouldnt need the ardurino board connected to the pcb/sheild for installing the software


----------



## djar007

remove the board from the shield. Program it and reassemble. My boards are just slotted together . Not hard soldered anywhere. So you can remove it for any code tweaks or updates.

edit: Too slow. What he said above.


Lael. I am setting up my 3v setup. It is on hold for the moment as I needed to spend some money and my wife has made me promise o wait until tax time to complete it. But really I have had a think about my needs and the Brau setup I have is awesome. With the addition of the hundred dollar electric gantry winch talked about on this site I have a great setup which is hassle free. If there is one thing I would strongly recommend for these systems it is a tap on the top side of the pump. Really slow flow has improved my brews since changing my pumps and stopped the compaction of the wort and channeling. The top plate for most of the brew is not forced hard up against the locking bar and the grain bed looks a lot softer and fluffier when I sparge. Does anyone use a crab cooker style pot underneath the malt pipe when sparging or draining after mash out?


----------



## jwollmer

Ahh, that makes more sense.

Thanks


----------



## lael

As djar said, pull it off, program, put it back on. Gentle, but firm pressure required.


----------



## zwitter

To program
Unplug Arduino
Program with USB (it powers it to)
Plug back in and it works.
Simple

I too think it is a little poor in blocking the port. But maybe there was a reason?

Zwitter


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## lael

I'll sparge 5L to 10L or so over the Brau and then sit it on a plastic bucket to sparge any further (double and larger batches). That way you can check the gravity that is coming out..


----------



## xredwood

I have been inspired by everyone here to have a crack at things myself. I have been slaving away with Excel today (my options for graphic software were incredibly limited!). All of the components were drawn in Excel and I tried to be as accurate as I can so hopefully you can figure out what everything is. There is a bit of a legend at the bottom to help.

The plan is for a 50L kettle with 30L ish malt pipe or a 36L kettle with 20L malt pipe. The inlet to the pump is much the same as on the Braumiser (same flush mount fitting), all hoses are camlocks, the pump will be removable and I also intend to make a longer pipe with whirlpool attachment for it as well. I am still very much in the planning stage so if you wouldn't mind taking a look and letting me know your thoughts on what I've got so far I would be very grateful! 

The malt pipe will have a flush mount fitting as well which should allow it to drain when it is above the kettle and it connects to an internal threaded coupling on the main kettle. The pump outlet into the main kettle is through a tee which has the threaded rod attached to a cap in the bottom and the threaded rod will go straight through all of the other fittings. The idea is once reaching strike temp, the malt pipe will be lowered then threaded into the coupling, a domed or legged false bottom dropped in to act as a dispersion screen, then a filter plate on top to be made out of a splatter guard and maybe also a more sturdy plate over the top of that. 

The part that I am most worried about making is the filter screens so if anyone can offer me any advice for that I would be very grateful!

After mashing, the malt pipe will be unthreaded from the base, and lifted out (I may use a winch/pulley for this) and can then be drained/sparged before boiling. After boiling I intend to use a whirlpool fitting on the side as well as either an immersion chiller or plate chiller. For the element I will either use a 2200-2400W element or a 3400-3600W element (thoughts anyone?). I am planning on doing 20L batches only however if I go for the 50L option I imagine I could do a double batch.

To control it, I am planning on getting a BCS460 mainly because brewing beer on an iPhone seems pretty damn cool to me!

If anyone has any questions, comments, ideas, criticisms, etc I would love to hear them! I'm going to keep playing in excel to give more views of what I'm planning and will post those as well if anyone is interested.

Cheers!


----------



## MastersBrewery

for easier conection Malt pipe to pump line, you might consider using cam locks, check out Arnies Braubushka detailed earlier in this thread. As far as filter plates go, I discussed this with Lael while brewing on his machine and the general consensus was to cut them slightly larger and grind down to create a nice snug fit. His were 2mm plate with 3mm holes on standard pitch, and sourced from M&S stainless. Good luck with the build

MB


----------



## angus_grant

I would say a 36L kettle with 20L malt pipe would be pushing it for boil space if you are wanting to push the malt pipe to the max with grain bill (about 6kgs in my case although that is calculated and not real world)

I have a 50L kettle and first batch on it was 31L after sparging. So a 36L kettle would only have 5L headspace above boil. Not much in my book.

A 50L kettle and 30L malt pipe would be a nice combination. Quick look at volume calculations and you would have max grain bill of 9.6kgs.

You would need actual dimensions of malt pipe to work out min water levels to calculate it all out correctly.


----------



## xredwood

Hi MB,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not sure that would work. How would I connect and disconnect the malt pipe without being to get at the levers on the cam lock?


----------



## xredwood

I've just discovered another issue. If I use 1/2" camlock with M10 threaded rod through it, I'm leaving virtually no room for wort flow. I think I'll have to go 3/4" with M8 rod which shouldn't be too hard, it just means from the tee up everything needs to be 3/4" which none of the brew shops seem to carry. Shouldn't be too hard to get from a plumbing supply shop though.

Thanks Angus, that's what I was thinking of going with anyway, it's not much more money for the bigger pots so might as well.


----------



## angus_grant

The cam lock setup does not actually lock the levers down. In fact your remove the levers. 

Without fully thinking it through the threaded rod running through the cam lock seems a complicated way to go. And you are leaving yourself a very small pathway for the wort to flow. If work flow pathway gets blocked by grain then you are screwed. 

I think most of the pathways on the various brau-clones are 1/2" so somewhat unlikely to block. Yours would be a fairly small gap. 

3/8" - 8mm is a fairly small gap.

To remove a blockage on mine I would have to undo cam locks on pump tubing. You are undoing everything.

Apologies if I have not understood your design properly. Although the plan you uploaded seems fairly clear.


----------



## MastersBrewery

check arnies set up here, I looked at this some months prior to Matho's was posted, I decided to follow the same route as Matho, Edak, Lael and others as the malt pipe system is simpler. Best advice I can give is to read up, all of this thread and the controller thread and there are also some handy hints in this thread also. I know I've just told you to read 150 odd pages of posts, this is not a simple project, there are pitfalls along the way, if you put the time in now you can save some head aches and possibly some money.
cheers

MB

ED: Also it makes it easier if we know where you are, one of the guys who have completed this project may well offer assistance or even just the chance to see a working clone in action.


----------



## angus_grant

Just worked the gap out. 0.295mm where-as mine would be 0.5mm. So 2mm extra. Doesn't sound like much but every mm counts. 

That's what I tell my wife, anyways.


----------



## xredwood

I've been looking at the malt pipe design for the braubushka and 2.0 but I can't figure out how he attaches the malt pipe to the pump outlet... What am I missing? It says all you have to do is lower the mash tun then twist but doesn't say what the connection is or how to connect/disconnect when necessary.

Oh and I am in Cairns.

I am trying to think how I could have the threaded rod attached to the mash pipe only used as a guide for the filter plates to avoid them tilting and letting grain out. One idea I have had is to use the modified cam lock from the origninal braubushka and just have it slightly offset from center and have the threaded rod attached only to the mash tun to avoid all the extra plumbing. The only issue I see with this is making sure I have it lined up properly when inserting the mash pipe could be quite difficult, though I suppose it would be empty at this point.

From what I can see in the pictures, the port in the bottom of the braubushka is a male cam lock and the female cam lock is attached to the bottom of the mash pipe with the levers removed. Is it that simple? Is he suggesting the weight of the mash pipe is enough for an adequate seal and then all I need to do is find a way to hold the top filter plate down?


----------



## lael

The filter plate gap is not as big an issue as you would think. On two side of the pot on Saturday there was about a 2-3mm gap. As the grain swells it creates a filter and stops anything getting through. Not sure if it would make a difference if you were cramming the grain in though. 


The other thing I was interested in is that I thought Arnie's efficiency numbers were fairly low. I don't remember if he sparged or not, but I wondered if it was cause the wort doesn't spread as well through the grain bed from a cam fitting.


----------



## MastersBrewery

the first info on that system was on brewtroller forum here. heh that took a bit of thinking to remember.


----------



## lael

To your last question - it looks like it...


----------



## MastersBrewery

lael said:


> To your last question - it looks like it...


yeah confirmed in the link I posted


----------



## angus_grant

Correct there is no clamping for the cam lock system.


----------



## xredwood

OK I've come up with something quite similar to the Braubushka now. Very similar plumbing with the pipe, only difference will be I'm going to mount it slightly to the side and then have a threaded rod dead center of the mash tun to hold the false bottom and top filter in place. It has simplified the plumbing immensely! Here is the updated diagram.


----------



## angus_grant

Nice redesign. The simpler the better.


----------



## hotmelt

You could attach your centre rod to an oversize washer which you might have to make yourself out of sheet metal or attach it to a skin fitting.






Excuse crappy drawing but paint is all we have at work but you should get what I mean.


----------



## hotmelt

While I'm on the subject of crappy drawings here's another one of a malt pipe.





The grey area represents a mesh screen or voile.
The thinking behind it is the wort flows through the mesh screen rather than over the top and if any grain gets past the top plate it will be caught by the mesh/voile.


----------



## djar007

That's a cool idea. Also doing away with a centre bolt and clamping the malt pipe from the top would be easier to engineer and would benefit the removal of malt pipe.


----------



## xredwood

My biggest issue is trying to keep the build simple. Plumbing fittings are easy and all of the holes for these fittings can be cut with one holesaw or I can get a punch. I think fabricating those other ideas is a bit beyond me. 

For the filters I am hoping I can find some splatter guards that fit close enough then if necessary adding cut silicon hose to the edges to provide a good seal. Is that a good idea or do I want them to be able to move?


----------



## xredwood

Also, I'm still trying to figure out how to wire an element. My intention is to use a TE bendable element which I understand comes with a waterproof bulkhead to get the terminals through the pot. I'm then planning on using an ABS project box for a BCS460 and wiring. The element will be wired to an SSR in the box but I'm not sure how to ground it given there are only two terminals on the element. Can anyone help me out?


----------



## zwitter

Hi
Put an earth connection under the nut that holds the element to the pot. Probably need a silicone seal on the inside of the pot and a toothed washer on the outside so you get a good contact with the pot.

If both terminals end in the box can use one to hold box in place and the other have nut tighten direct onto pot for good connection.

James


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## xredwood

Like this? Maybe I'd be better off using a junction box/small abs project box to house the terminals and earth it as shown then wire to a standard plug to allow me to disconnect the element easily from the main box?


----------



## jwollmer

Finished the wiring on my brauduino control box today. I am running a 220v chugger pump. I wired it directly to the PCB per directions. Is there anything else I need to do? Not sure what the jumpers on the board do.

Thanks
Jim


----------



## lael

Jim, might be worth posting photos before you power it up.


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## stevemc32

Pretty sure the board jumpers select the control voltage to the onboard pump relay.

Had a first run today, need some technique adjustment but it seems to work.


----------



## lael

Steve - that looks fantastic! So satisfying to get it running and making beer, right? 

Your controller looks really cool. Did you stick the fascia on the inside or the outside of your box?

Where did you get your pots from?


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## angus_grant

Another brau-clone rises against the super-efficient Germans!


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## stevemc32

Not a complete success on the first run but it did make beer.

The fascia is stuck on the outside of the clear box lid, need to make up a hanger for it to stop it falling off the table. The malt pipe is just a BigW 19l and I scored the main vessel off a member here selling it about 6 months ago.


----------



## lael

Do you mind my asking what the issues were?


----------



## stevemc32

Sure, my biggest technique issue was not really understanding the volume calculators so I started with 28 litres and had to remove 2 litres to get 4.5kg of grain into the malt pipe. I now see I could use a lot less initial strike water than 28 litres so that shouldn't cause any further problems.

The second issue was the controller got stuck on a pump rest after mash out that I just gave up on after about 15 minutes and went back to manual mode to finish it off. I saw in Matho's thread that this was supposed to be fixed in version 2 but there was also someone saying just give it a reset and resume the operation. I did the reset after about 30 mins into the boil and it worked ok so hopefully it'll be good for next time or I'll just reset it.


----------



## lael

yeah, I had similar issues on my first batch. Turned out awesome though.

I think the code update you need is here: https://github.com/mathoaus/braumiser-controller/blob/master/brauduino2.ino


----------



## jwollmer

Ok Lael, here are some pictures. It may be hard to see given the nest of wires, but see if it looks right. I just want confirmation on the 220v pump wiring. Jus to orient you to my build the 220v power in is the top right outlet, the middle is for the heating element, and the left is for the 220v pump.

Also 2 other questions
1) what is JU1 jumper on the board for?
2) I have read about 220v pump interference with the display. Is that addressed in the current PCB I have?

Thanks
Jim


----------



## lael

Last image is clear and great  
White is active, aqua is earth and brown is neutral? I can't tell how your electrical in should be (which pin is which), but the rest looks exactly how I've wired mine. Very neat and tidy - nice work!


----------



## lael

Oh, yes - you have the board that should stop inter reference. The jumper - I would have to look it up in the manual Steve made. I'm not sure off hand.


----------



## arzaman

Working on electronic part of the clone 2.0 based on Open ArdBir Italian project derived from brauduino but with many new features and bug fixing (like pump rest). Let's give it a try !

Enjoy
Davide


----------



## xredwood

I'm after some opinions. I'm concerned that the cam lock without arms system that has to be offset from the centre of the urn because of the element won't provide enough support for the malt pipe. Also I want to be able to attach a whirlpool fitting to the same fitting as the malt pipe to use the same pump outlet after the malt pipe has been removed. I wouldn't think the weight of a cam lock with a compression fitting and relatively short length of copper pipe would be sufficient to seal, even if the malt pipe is heavy enough.

If I use elbows to get the pump outlet in the centre of the malt pipe and use two rods to support and clamp down the filter plates (instead of a threaded centre rod like the Braumeister) and then simply screw the malt pipe in using the skin fitting to the pump outlet/main vessel while recirculating, I can then remove the malt pipe, and attach a whirlpool fitting by threading it in (this will be a pipe from the outlet then curved at the top towards the edge to set up a whirlpool). This would be done towards the end of the boil to sanitize then used during cooling with an immerison cooler to speed the cooling process then to whirlpool to allow trub to move to the centre before siphoning to the fermenter.

Can anyone see why this will or won't work? It is very hard to describe in words what I am thinking so I have attached a diagram of what I am now thinking of doing and would appreciate any feedback.


----------



## djar007

Interesting design. I am all for clamping down the malt pipe and would be keen hear why the braumeister has designed a malt pipe which when pulled can allow grain to flow through the hole in the centre.An all in one pot with holes in the bottom would stop the flowback of grain when the malt pipe is pulled. I would just say that the simpler the design the better. Adding and removing parts during the process will prove problematic and distract you from concentrating on brewing.


----------



## xredwood

Thanks djar but I'm having trouble understanding what you're saying? I have chosen not to cut out the bottom of this pot because I wanted to avoid drilling extra holes through the main vessel which would be required for the threaded rods. This will be a pot with a false bottom with a flush skin fitting underneath it which will thread directly into the elbow of the main vessel which is attached to the pump. The top filter plate is then attached to a stainless flat bar and then clamped only to the malt pipe using wing nuts. The only holes in the main vessel are pump inlet (skin fitting) and pump outlet (elbow). Everything else is done through the malt pipe, which if it leaks a little bit won't matter.

You probably didn't need that explanation but I'm just not sure what you were saying with the all in one pot and pulling the malt pipe...


----------



## djar007

I have trouble understanding me too. Hard to explain and I cant to pictures like you guys can. 
I didnt see at first the direction of the pump and now I see that the wort will flow through the top and out through the false bottom. Is that right?


----------



## stevemc32

djar, I had the same question on grain flowing through the bolt down hole on the Braumeister but had a chance to see a real one in operation the other day. 

When the malt pipe is lifted onto the draining rack the centre bolt actually remains engaged in the bottom filter so no grain can escape.

I use a small pulley system to lift my malt pipe so I gave it a go on my last brew, not lifting the malt pipe fully out of the main vessel so the bolt hole remained blocked during the sparge. It worked well and virtually no grain escaped after the malt pipe had been fully drained and lifted clear.


----------



## xredwood

Pretty pictures are no good if they don't tell the right story! I should have specified. The flow direction is the same as the braumeister. Inlet to pump is on the right, outlet in centre so the flow is up through the grain. I understand your point about the Braumeister now as well! I'm hoping the advantage to my system is the malt pipe is completely separate from the main vessel so there is (hopefully) nowhere for grain to slip through and the filters and top plate are only removed for cleaning at the end of the brew day. I really wish my urn didn't have the element mounted directly in the middle then there would be no need for the S-bend elbows! 

My original design had the same malt pipe but using a cam lock in the main vessel and the mating one on the malt pipe but due to the element position in the urn, it would be off to one side which I don't think will give a very good seal as I would have to remove the "arms"


----------



## lael

If you are already putting in holes for the skin fittings... One more for the threaded center rod is not that big a deal, and seems less hole drilling. The only thing it changes is putting holes in the filter plates / bottom of pot in a different location. I have no science to back me but suspect that a closed pot doesn't sparge as well and results in lower efficiency. 

You will need an extra plate at the bottom, but it is the easy one - only needs to cover the hole and be able to hold the weight of the grain. I suspect the more open the better actually. Using Craftbrewer 3/8" high durability silicone hose as my seal as per mathos recommendation. Works well.


----------



## xredwood

I'm not sure I could make that work in this case. I have a birko exposed element urn which has the element mounted in the centre of the pot so a centre rod is out. I could use two similar to how I'm thinking of doing the malt pipe I suppose. I would also then need to come up with something to keep the bottom plate up off the element. I'm hoping the closed pot will be ok with the domed false bottom to create some space between pump outlet and grain. With the way I'm planning on doing it I can still easily modify it to an open pot later on so I'll try the above plan and let you know how it goes!


----------



## lael

Ah, missed that! Kind of important 

Sounds like a good plan. I wouldn't rely on being able to seat the malt pipe and screw it into a fitting. At least i think that is what you were saying. It sounds like it could be tough to get in and secure it. Similarly getting another pipe down in the right spot through the wort... I'm not sure how easy that would be. Camlocks lock in. I would guess that is why Arnie did his the way he did. Does he say anything about why on his blog?


----------



## xredwood

I'm thinking at this stage I'm going to try the camlock sealing and see how it goes. If it doesn't seal well enough with the weight alone I'll clamp it down then if that doesn't work I'll consider cutting the bottom out of the pipe. Then if that doesn't work, I'm going to go for a 3 vessel system since I'll have a lot of the components already. Considering how tight the malt pipe fits in the pot I don't think I'll have much trouble seating it in the camlock or screw fitting but we shall see when I get the parts.


----------



## lael

Sweet! Sounds like you've got it in hand. Post photos of the working system!


----------



## arzaman

In order to have a threaded rod in the center of the pot and malt pipe and at the same time a camlock sealing I have used a bigger 3/4" camlock and the rod trough it. On the bottom of the main pot a Y fitting is used to connect the pump.

Here some picture that explain better the solution
Already tested with some water and seems OK

http://youtu.be/IOFzzH10K78'> http://youtu.be/IOFzzH10K78

What do you think about?
Davide


----------



## real_beer

arzaman said:


> In order to have a threaded rod in the center of the pot and malt pipe and at the same time a camlock sealing I have used a bigger 3/4" camlock and the rod trough it. On the bottom of the main pot a Y fitting is used to connect the pump.
> 
> Here some picture that explain better the solution
> Already tested with some water and seems OK
> 
> http://youtu.be/IOFzzH10K78'> http://youtu.be/IOFzzH10K78
> 
> What do you think about?
> Davide


It looks great running Davide, especially the video with the top filter plate in place. I'm also highly impressed with your DIY Arduino controlled Micro Malt House video, excellent idea!! I think I'll have to order a few more Arduino's to play with :lol:


----------



## arzaman

[SIZE=10.5pt]Thank you real_beer I[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have learnt a lot from version 1.0 and from this 2 years reading and evolutions on both in Italian and Australian forum[/SIZE]

The construction of the clone 2.0 is proceeding very well and I’m now working on the electric part and I have already performed some “wet run” in order to test all the components

















Off course the *Open ArdBir controller* is providing a great improvement to all the process automation and In parallel the Opne ArdBir team has released a new firmware version with some nice new feature and now everything is well documented with an English user manual

Give it a look and discover how powerful is this controller !
[SIZE=10pt]http://goo.gl/W3ZKKb[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]last firmware version can be downloaded here[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]http://goo.gl/nAz2om[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]the FB page for news and announcements
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Open-Ardbir/606829852720387https://www.facebook.com/pages/Open-Ardbir/606829852720387[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]enjoy[/SIZE]
Davide


----------



## poacher

Hi,

Finally got around to wiring my kit controller and have a few questions if someone can please answer. 

Have plugged the Arduino to my computer via USB and it does power up but does not recognise it ( should I be reading the program installed ). I am using a mac

I aso plugged into Braumiser shield & screen via USB, the screen powers up but is blank as shown in photo's and does not display temp.








Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


----------



## djar007

Did you add the code to the Arduino mate? And if so have you trimmed the pot to get the brightness correct for you to be able to read screen?


----------



## zwitter

Hi
A common problem is the contrast is turned all the way down. Try adjusting the trimpot on the shield and see if you get characters on LCD.

I assume you bought Arduino from Lael and is therefore preloaded?

Otherwise you will need to download the sketch and compile and download to the Arduino then connect to shield and 12volts. I would suggest not having pump or element connected for the initial testing.

James


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## poacher

Trimmed the pot and all is good!

Thanks for your help.


----------



## djar007

good feeling seeing that isnt it.nice work mate. Also the open ardbir firmware is compatible with this controller.


----------



## tateg

Anyone else had any issues with getting a rolling boil ? 
I have a 50lt pot which is well insulated with a 2400watt element that still can't get a rolling boil.


----------



## djar007

Have you tried the floating cake tin trick mate?


----------



## tateg

djar007 said:


> Have you tried the floating cake tin trick mate?


Really how big?


----------



## tateg

djar007 said:


> Have you tried the floating cake tin trick mate?


** double post**


----------



## djar007

Big enough to cover the wort but enough room around sides to boil off nasties.A few biab guys use one with an urn.


----------



## tateg

I have the rod in the middle though


----------



## djar007

hole cut in a stainless steel bowl and turned upside down will work.


----------



## angus_grant

50L pot with 2400W element:






I showed Ross at Craft Brewer a video of it boiling and he said it was plenty vigorous enough to get rid of DMS and other nasties.

Just a cheap stainless bowl from a kitchen warehouse on the corner of Tooheys road and Evans Road in Moorooka in Brisbane. No idea of your location though. Cut the bottom out with dremel (probably my favourite tool in the shed) and still have to go to Clark Rubber to get a seal to cover the sharp edges. 

I only got a very gentle boil without bowl. I do have a square pot though (40cm * 40cm) where-as normal brew pots are tall and narrow so I lose quite a lot of energy out the top. A floating pie tin or my bowl type setup (which I copied from Edak) cuts down the surface area and promotes a stronger boil.


----------



## tateg

angus_grant said:


> 50L pot with 2400W element:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I showed Ross at Craft Brewer a video of it boiling and he said it was plenty vigorous enough to get rid of DMS and other nasties.
> 
> Just a cheap stainless bowl from a kitchen warehouse on the corner of Tooheys road and Evans Road in Moorooka in Brisbane. No idea of your location though. Cut the bottom out with dremel (probably my favourite tool in the shed) and still have to go to Clark Rubber to get a seal to cover the sharp edges.
> 
> I only got a very gentle boil without bowl. I do have a square pot though (40cm * 40cm) where-as normal brew pots are tall and narrow so I lose quite a lot of energy out the top. A floating pie tin or my bowl type setup (which I copied from Edak) cuts down the surface area and promotes a stronger boil.


do u have any trouble keeping the hood on ? does it slide off at all during the boil
also does the condensation run down the inside of the bowl?
cheers


----------



## xredwood

Ok progress time! It's actually mainly done, I just did my first water test and it was leak free first time!

I have designed and redesigned and rethought everything countless times but I ended up going back to basically my original plan. It is a 20L malt pipe with a male camlock fitting mounted to a skin fitting on the bottom that mates with a female cam lock attached through the base of the Birko urn then into a LBP. The drain from the urn is another skin fitting. All fittings are stainless. Here are some pictures!

I just had to throw this one in. The tools available to me were pretty lacking. I used a hacksaw for every cut and without a vice it took forever! Getting through this skin fitting was probably 90 min+




Here is the inside view without the malt pipe so you can see the female cam lock. I have not decided if I'm going to bother taking the "arms" off it yet, I don't really see the need to and this way I can reuse it if I end up changing the design.




Here you can see the view underneath the urn. This is a close up of the pump inlet which is a skin fitting to elbow to barb fitting which then goes to the LBP with another barb fitting. I was going to hard plumb everything but with the small space under the urn it got too difficult. This makes it very easy to remove the pump as well. The pump outlet (to the malt pipe) is just threaded into a coupling which goes from pump to camlock fitting.




This is how the draining will work. It sits nicely on the edge and doesn't take too long to drain, should allow me to start heating for the boil while I drain or even sparge. I will use some kind of pulley system when I figure out how I want to do that.


----------



## xredwood

Here is a view from under the urn. The only thing I have done so far is add the pump and wire it up. I will drill a hole through the side of the base so it doesn't have wires hanging out the bottom but this worked well for testing purposes. I am also going to rewire the urn to bypass the thermostat when i get my BCS460 but for now it stays as is with an STC1000 used to control temperature.




I took a few videos of the water test which are linked below:

Water test without malt pipe


Water test with malt pipe no filter plates


Water test with filter plates


----------



## angus_grant

The bowl sits bang on the lip of my 50L pot. 

Condensation does run down the inside of the bowl into the pot. However a small amount does run between pot and bowl into my insulation. Do a search for edaks solution of silicon tube as a seal for his domed lid.


----------



## tateg

angus_grant said:


> The bowl sits bang on the lip of my 50L pot.
> 
> Condensation does run down the inside of the bowl into the pot. However a small amount does run between pot and bowl into my insulation. Do a search for edaks solution of silicon tube as a seal for his domed lid.


does it really matter if the condensation runs back in to the boil ?


----------



## Edak

The hose under the bottom of the lip does catch about 100ml of condensation and draws this out into a jug instead of running back into the pot. I must admit though it's a pain in the but to keep on and I am not sure how much it improves my beer.


----------



## tateg

Edak said:


> The hose under the bottom of the lip does catch about 100ml of condensation and draws this out into a jug instead of running back into the pot. I must admit though it's a pain in the but to keep on and I am not sure how much it improves my beer.


Fair enough I might give it a shot with out first, out of curiosity what kind of boil of rates are you getting ? , from memory we use the same pot with the same size element. 
Cheers


----------



## angus_grant

tateg said:


> does it really matter if the condensation runs back in to the boil ?


Not to Ross. 

I've not tasted any off flavours in any of my beers, but then again I haven't really had much experience identifying off flavours


----------



## Edak

I get about around 11% boil off rate


----------



## arzaman

dane said:


> While this FAQ is only for beginners, there is a website that is fairly well know in the brewing community. For information on more advanced techniques, please have a look at www.howtobrew.com. It is an excellent resource!


Give to Open ArdBir a shot
Lot of new features and some bug corrections and optimizations compared with brauduino

Davide


----------



## Pirate323i

Wow, I have just spent the last 5 days reading this epic thread!
First of all I would like to pass on my thanks to everyone who has contributed, especially to Matho, who started the whole thing! 
A friend of mine recently started all grain brewing, which got me thinking... His beer is great, but I am inherently lazy, so started thinking of automation...
So... I have *cough* acquired *cough* a keg and recently bought an arduino UNO to muck around with... Looks like it will have a purpose!
Tomorrow I will be visiting Big W for a 19L pot. 
The fun starts now!


----------



## MastersBrewery

Pirate323i said:


> Wow, I have just spent the last 5 days reading this epic thread!
> First of all I would like to pass on my thanks to everyone who has contributed, especially to Matho, who started the whole thing!
> A friend of mine recently started all grain brewing, which got me thinking... His beer is great, but I am inherently lazy, so started thinking of automation...
> So... I have *cough* acquired *cough* a keg and recently bought an arduino UNO to muck around with... Looks like it will have a purpose!
> Tomorrow I will be visiting Big W for a 19L pot.
> The fun starts now!


some further reading required  May I just say welcome to the slippery slope hope your other half understands how expensive cheap beer can be


----------



## Pirate323i

MastersBrewery said:


> some further reading required  May I just say welcome to the slippery slope hope your other half understands how expensive cheap beer can be


Hmm, yes I get what you mean about expensive cheap beer... And yep have found that thread, looks like it will make interesting reading... I have been lucky enough to secure one of lael's last controller kits! So am definitly invested in my BrauMiser.


----------



## digger

Hrm I just found my controller (brauduino) the other day whilst cleaning up and thought "While it's cooler/darker earlier why not knock some unfinished projects out!" I apologise in advance as I haven't been following the thread for quite a while (and it's been a while since I constructed the controller as well) so please bear with me.

Everything's assembled from the controller point of view but now faced with the decision of which scenario/path I go down:

- I could use the 40l Crown urn (concealed element) as the main pot (and if so I have to work out how I would go about that considering I can't use the center of the vessel for attachments). This option means less fabrication work which would save money from needing to buy tools but may have a degree of difficulty I'm not comfortable with.
- I could buy a 70l pot, the required tools to cut it etc 

As far as the malt pipe goes I'm in two minds.
Ideally I would like the option to make a 'small/half' batch malt pipe for it as well, has anyone tried this/thought about it? (end with say 9L or a dozen or so bottles for test/pilot brews). So is an option to buy a 15-20l pot for the pilot batches and a 50l pot for single brews a possibility? 

I've got no worries putting stuff together, the fabrication part of it all I'm uncomfortable with (and lacking tools for the most part) so Ideally as close to 'off the shelf' as I can get is preferred (unless someone is willing to cut these for me at my cost up front?!).

Thoughts? Recommendations? (abuse for not reading every word to date?)


----------



## Pirate323i

DiggeR said:


> Ideally I would like the option to make a 'small/half' batch malt pipe for it as well, has anyone tried this/thought about it? (end with say 9L or a dozen or so bottles for test/pilot brews). So is an option to buy a 15-20l pot for the pilot batches and a 50l pot for single brews a possibility?
> 
> I've got no worries putting stuff together, the fabrication part of it all I'm uncomfortable with (and lacking tools for the most part) so Ideally as close to 'off the shelf' as I can get is preferred (unless someone is willing to cut these for me at my cost up front?!).
> 
> Thoughts? Recommendations? (abuse for not reading every word to date?)


DiggeR, Matho's original Braumiser is about that size... Start reading from the beginning...


----------



## digger

Pirate323i said:


> DiggeR, Matho's original Braumiser is about that size... Start reading from the beginning...


I've spent a while going over what I missed (still a lot to go!) but really the main question now is has anyone tried to adapt the concealed element crown urn for it? if so how did they do it.
I have the ability to build a larger unit but ultimately the design of it isn't something I have the time to do (nor the tools really for the fab currently) so ultimately trying to avoid that. I have all fittings etc to complete it but my 2 choices (if going from scratch) would be finding detailed plans to follow for pots or finding someone willing to knock it all together and either ship or pickup. Controller is not an issue. Filter screens I would easily source as well.

Time vs Cost at the moment really. Time to get brewing in a safer/easier setup that my existing biab or just grab a braumeister 20L for convenience and work on a 9l pilot braumeiser over however long it will take!


----------



## lael

I'm not sure on the concealed element urn. I thought someone was posting about one not long ago? Might be a different thread. All depends on if you can avoid the element. 

What dimensions is the pot?


----------



## MastersBrewery

I have a 36l urn I was looking at for a while, and it is possible to put a centre rod through it the problem then becomes it's seal to the vessel when tightening down the Malt pipe, so I abandoned the idea. A 50l outer with a Big W pot will do a quick 20L version, then a second smaller malt pipe of say 12L. But note I'd say your going to need to have 2 sets of filter plates which is a right pain. Put your location in your profile you may live closer to someone who has built one or is like you in the process

MB


----------



## xredwood

Have a look at my build: 

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/79602-another-braumeister-inspired-system/#entry1179075

This would work for the concealed element as well I think, only thing is the camlock fitting may have to be even further to the side to get around the element housing. I've now finished it with one of the Brauduino/ArdBir controllers. Happy to answer any questions if you have any.

Cheers,

Xander


----------



## mojonojo

Xander could you put together a final parts list, as from the photos your setup seems different from the diagram you provided


----------



## hotmelt

Have a look at this,it's not a crown but it might give you some ideas.
http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62803&hilit=breadmaker&start=15


----------



## xredwood

mojonojo said:


> Xander could you put together a final parts list, as from the photos your setup seems different from the diagram you provided


It has changed a fair amount from those plans. Take a look at this post

http://imgur.com/a/HAiPQ

And the comments from here I did a write up with links to parts

http://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/249ehu/updated_braumeister_clone_build_progress/ch52bv3


----------



## mojonojo

THANKS XANDER!

I essentially have all the parts in house (Apart from the plumbing and screens) including the matho controller so i might get on the case in the next few weeks.


----------



## MastersBrewery

waiting on fabricators...... -_-



MB


----------



## digger

lael said:


> I'm not sure on the concealed element urn. I thought someone was posting about one not long ago? Might be a different thread. All depends on if you can avoid the element.
> 
> What dimensions is the pot?


sadly the concealed element in a Crown 40L is smack bang in the centre. Dimension wise it's 34cm wide and 49cm deep (internal measurements). Have included some pics underside and inside to show the size of the element itself. The entire centre ring is the element. The extra bit is the thermister for the urns temp control and the other bit is it's cover/cage (excuse the mess, it's relatively easy to clean and I didn't clean it more than a rinse last brew day).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qu4x1mc7pcptf8f/2014-06-06%2001.29.26.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3vbe32l7cr73o3f/2014-06-06%2001.29.11.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kh8pp2lilayeonk/2014-06-06%2001.28.48.jpg


----------



## Edak

Finally fitted my own design Brauboard to my system, works a damn charm and is nice and compact! This is actually the most basic board I have ever designed, though it's the first I have done at home with freeware tools 

Very happy with it


----------



## MastersBrewery

Edak, I gotta say mate compact, xbee and purple. Mate that is awesome, Lael was only just saying and I was thinking, this would be great to run from your phone. I take it there would be no major changes from current code.
Now my project in well under way you buggers all decide to bring out so many extra cool bits! hate you!! all!! but have to love it!

MB


----------



## dca

Edak - Looks good at first glance... I like the idea of hardwired sensor and SSR. Connectors are fine, but add cost and failure points. Any chance you're willing to share SRC files our Gerber's? I have 20 yrs of PCB / h/w experience, but a lack of time. 

Another topic...I read all xxx pages of the Aussie & US threads about this great community effort over the last few wks. 

I am considering the pros/ cons of a 2V vs. 1V system. Ala...BM vs. BE systems. 

Question: Why is the large hole/strainer on the bottom needed? The pump is still flowing out of that small pipe/hole in the bottom. Would still drain/sparge fine with a smaller orifice. 

Maybe I am missing something... I hear about channeling, etc. I could be just missing it, but how it's the lower strainer acting like a diffuser?... I am not getting that part of it. 

That is where maybe Davide's cone design may be a good idea, but losing volume as a result. 

I am looking for simple design while balancing cost.

Please advise your thoughts...

Thanks to all who brought this effort as far as it has come... keep up the good work!

Dave A.


----------



## Edak

Hey Dave,
I would be happy to share my design files. PM me your email.

WRT the pump outlet and the lower filter I am guessing it's a case of fluid dynamics. If you were to blow air at the bottom of a strainer there would be some dispersion of the flow in a sidewards manner hence distributing the pressure more evenly across the base of the grain bed. Also when sparging if you have a small exit hole then flow will naturally travel via the easiest path and some of the grain won't wash. This is the reason why a mash tun has a false bottom.


----------



## dca

Thanks, Edak! PM sent...

I guess it diffuses it somewhat, but my guess is it only diffuses from 1/2"-1" pump inlet (1.25 - 2.5 cm) to maybe a few inches or so (~10cm). I am an EE (sparky, not an Mech Eng, but I am thinking a smaller hole in the bottom would not change things too much. Adding a non-clogging diffuser cap that attaches to the pump outlet may serve that purpose, if needed. 

I realize the format used by many here mimics the BM, but if you look at the BrewEasy (BE), it uses an AutoSparge, which just keep the water topped up on the grain bed sitting on top of a false bottom, which then drains out of a ball valve into the brew kettle. So, kind of like an inverted BM system. They do say it is not meant to be unattended, and the top layer of grain should be raked/stirred occasionally to assure an even mash distribution.

Just curious about various design approaches, and trying to understand pros/cons vs. effort/price. 

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## lael

The big advantage of a reverse flow system ala braumeister is that you won't get stuck sparges etc as you have the grain bed flowing during mashing. It can't overflow and make a mess. Unattended mashing FTW.


----------



## dca

OK, good points made. The AutoSparge works like a toilet ball valve and limits or turns off the flow when the level gets too high, and it is a closed system when used in a BE type setup. It can only work to limit 10 psi max. 

That said, even though it would be less fab work to build a BE system, I am beginning to think the better exposure / mixing of the grain bed like a BM system would improve efficiency of the process, and better automation as you have said.


----------



## Edak

Haven't got to my PC to get the files for you yet, but my design is also based on the seeeduino stalker v2 which has a RTC and wireless port. If you can get your hands on one of those you are in business!


----------



## Edak

I am thinking, if I have the spare time I might design my PCB for the spark core as the seeeduino stalker I buy is discontinued and my designs won't help anyone else. Perhaps one could change the official brauduino boards to accommodate a spark core instead of being a shield. Wireless logging and monitoring anyone?


----------



## lael

I was looking at that. I don't know as much as you and would appreciate you looking over it. As far as I can tell the spark requires the code to be rewritten.


----------



## lael

If we were to ask seeed they would probably produce the stalker again if we bought enough.


----------



## MastersBrewery

just checked ebay there are some still available though at $43 or so


----------



## Edak

Remember I am talking about v2.0 of the stalker not 2.1...


----------



## lael

What is the difference?


----------



## Edak

The real time clocks are different. V 2.0 has a supercapacitor rather than a battery


----------



## Edak

Well I drew up a spark version of the PCB this evening and will post it tomorrow. Does anyone actually have a spark core?


----------



## lael

Nope. Lol. How much difference is there? Different pin out and 3.3v right? Anything else?


----------



## Edak

Pinout, size, voltages and power connects to the board now but you pretty much summed it up. There are very few digital pins on the spark and not all are 5v tolerant, plus two of which are used for i2c. I didn't want to redesign my front panel (aka keep it simple) so I have had to use analog inputs for my buttons. Normally I would multiplex buttons to analog inputs using R-2R ladder but I would need to solder resistors to the front panel and didn't want to do that either. There are actually a few little hurdles to jump.


----------



## Edak

Couldn't sleep this morning so I finished it off and put on the Spark logo, not exactly high-res but looks okay.

EDIT: Oh and I gave it a name - SparkBrau!


----------



## lael

Edak said:


> Couldn't sleep this morning so I finished it off and put on the Spark logo, not exactly high-res but looks okay.
> 
> EDIT: Oh and I gave it a name - SparkBrau!


Great work!! Did you check the coding situation to see how much will need to be re-coded?


----------



## Edak

I imagine that it will require the libraries to be touched up a bit and an overall code test will be required, but given that spark is 'arduino compatible' I believe most of it will work okay. I don't think I can test/compile without an actual device though so I can't tell for sure.

Remember again that my code is different to yours and ardbir.


----------



## lael

Yeah, I know. I was mentioning cause I was reading this thread over at the spark core site and wondering what if any impact it would have. 

https://community.spark.io/t/code-size-reduction/1344/6.


----------



## Edak

Not worried much...


----------



## aamcle

Frankenbrew will rise again, the new build should start in the next month or two. 

This version will use a stockpot as a MP with a CamLock sealing it to the return wort flow/base of urn. The 3Kw heating element will be under the base of the MP/stockpot.

The element is under PID control and should be pulsing on and off as the temperature comes up to the setpoint.

To avoid hot spots, charring and so on how big a gap should I have between the base of the MP/stockpot and the top of the element? 
The element is circular would the be any advantage in having the pump feed in the centre of the circle ensuring flow over the element?

Atb. Aamcle


----------



## claypot

Hey All,
First of all thanks to all who have gone before and giving your time to report back here.
Here a couple of things I have done on my rig that may suit others looking for other options.
For the bottom malt pipe seal I used a pressure cooker seal from eBay -$5 or so. You would need to be handy with a MIG welder but.
For the top clamp I used a removable brace. Will try to upload pics.
I've used a 3 way valve - $30 eBay to divert to counter flow chiller after boil. All in all it looks a lot more shitier than I'd planned but it wasn't making beer while I deliberated over how to make it look better!
I've been collecting parts for ages now and often think I should of just bought one. But where's the fun in that! All the stainless I had at home, so if you had to buy it, it may not be cost effective.
Now to try and attach pics, Cheers,


----------



## clexan

Nice build clay pot, there's always time to pretty it up will you're enjoying a beer you brewed on it later :chug: , or just drink more beer and you won't care.
I've been collecting bits too and am getting ready to start cutting and drilling. Thanks to Lael for supplying and offering advice on the controller kit that is built and ready to go.

I've read the full thread a couple of times now and wanted to get some clarification/advice if possible on a couple of points.

1 - Many discussions have addressed the top filter plate but I'm a little foggy on the bottom plate, pros and cons of 'floating' vs fixed

2 - My pot combination, 50L outer, 25L malt pipe gives 37mm gap on either side for skin fitting and element. Is this plenty to comfortably fit the element or should I plan for a challenge?

3 - I biab with no whirlpool currently, I am planning on a 90 degree elbow on inside of outlet valve in side of pot to allow the pump to be redirected to whirlpool. Will this work?

4 - I have access to a 120mm hole saw which will simplify cutting the opening in the malt pipe (320mm diameter), I figure this should be plenty to drain the mp and the bottom filter is spreading the flow evenly anyway, Does this sound ok?

All advice is much appreciated, I've been following many great looking builds just looking to combine the ideas into something that will work for my gear.

Cheers :beer:


----------



## blotto

Hi everyone,

Here is my finished unit, it's taken me about two and a half years of working on it every now and then, thanks to all of you who went before me and gave me inspiration and ideas.

I still have some small adjustments to make like maybe some reinforcing of the top plate which is 2mm and as you can see in my malt pipe I'm losing maybe 50 mm of space down the bottom due to the method I've used to secure the rod but I was sick of this build dragging on and just wanted it done. I think I might make a new unit out of a keg so I can get a better malt pipe in there but I'll see how much malt I can fit in this one first and might rethink how I've secured the rod before that. The element is a 3kw one off ebay I had to bend it so it sits flush on the edges of my main pot it seems to still be working fine for the moment.


----------



## blotto

Top plate started bending straight away so had to pause for a few quick mods and the brew went really well after that.


----------



## Edak

Yeah it generates a lot of pressure! I am impressed that you could improvise at such short notice. Well done


----------



## blotto

Thanks Edak :icon_cheers:

For such a quick fix it worked surprisingly well, except the T piece with the barb fitting would fall over in the pump breaks so I had to be there to hold it up  I'll fab up something more permanent before next brew.


----------



## lael

I would highly recommend edaks solution of bain Marie / gastronorm dividers. Works very well.


----------



## blotto

I'll have a look lael cheers mate.


----------



## Edak

lael said:


> I would highly recommend edaks solution of bain Marie / gastronorm dividers. Works very well.


Cheers mate. They just seem to work and fit perfectly. Mine have started to bend slightly but do the job perfectly. I do have a couple of spares just in case.


----------



## peterl1981

Hi guys i'm about to buy a sheet of perforated stainless steel sheet for false bottom in my new braumeister..

Just wondering if a 2mm hole and 2mm think would do the trick?

or would a 3mm hole be better?? or maybe 2.5 hole is 2mm thick enough?

cheers
peter


----------



## lael

As large an open area as possible. 2mm thick ( or more I suppose - but no-one with 2mm thick has complained yet...  )


----------



## blotto

lynchman said:


> Hi guys i'm about to buy a sheet of perforated stainless steel sheet for false bottom in my new braumeister..
> 
> Just wondering if a 2mm hole and 2mm think would do the trick?
> 
> or would a 3mm hole be better?? or maybe 2.5 hole is 2mm thick enough?
> 
> cheers
> peter


I think the original ones have 2 mm holes and 2 mm thick, but it's been a while since I saw those measurements. Where are you getting your plate Peter?


----------



## peterl1981

Just


Wort said:


> I think the original ones have 2 mm holes and 2 mm thick, but it's been a while since I saw those measurements. Where are you getting your plate Peter?


off a stainless steel fabrication dude up the road. In Melbourne.. hes going to try find me sime of cuts, and if not ill just buy a sheet 2.4 x 1.2.


----------



## lael

I'm pretty sure the originals are 3mm. I'm also pretty sure that is the smallest hole size you'll get in 2mm thick.


----------



## blotto

Malted said:


> I don't have a vernier caliper or such to measure them. You certainly would have trouble bending them. I put a tape on them (the best measuring device I have!) and they look pretty much spot on 2mm thick with 3mm perforated holes. They're quite heavy too, one is 1.05kg and one is 1.09kg.





lael said:


> I'm pretty sure the originals are 3mm. I'm also pretty sure that is the smallest hole size you'll get in 2mm thick.


Right you are lael, I found Malted's post from a few years ago that I remembered reading


----------



## bigbern

Hi all,

Have read the thread and am inspired to build my own clone. Was just wondering if it is best to get the main vessel with a sandwich base or not.

Cheers


----------



## Edak

bigbern said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Have read the thread and am inspired to build my own clone. Was just wondering if it is best to get the main vessel with a sandwich base or not.
> 
> Cheers


I think just to save on cost go without. It's not needed because you heat from within the vessel.


----------



## zwitter

Hi
The advantage of a sanwich base is it gives a stronger base to bolt the central rod to if that is the way you intend to proceed.

Otherwise it is up to what vessel you find that meets the requirements.
Mine has sandwich base but it is smaller than the base so makes attaching plumbing out towards the edge a little more difficult. Either way the seal is done against the inner surface.

James


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## jonasbegood

I have read through the thread, but seemed to miss what the optimal sizes for the kettle and malt pipe is? Both in liters and cm.


----------



## jonasbegood

Would in example a 50L outer kettle (40x40cm) and a 16,5L (28x28cm) mash pipe be a good combo? This would give me 6cm on each side for heating. How big batch would this produce?

Next step for mash pipe could be 24L (32x32cm). What do you guys think?


----------



## Pirate323i

jonasbegood said:


> I have read through the thread, but seemed to miss what the optimal sizes for the kettle and malt pipe is? Both in liters and cm.


My setup (under construction) is based on quite a few others on here and is a 50l keg with a 19l mash pipe (Big W pot) the gap between pots is not large (quite a squeeze!) but would probably be better in a flat bottomed pot as opposed to a keg...
Good luck and have fun!


----------



## Edak

My Big pot...
Top edge (diameter) = 420mm
Bottom Edge (diameter) = 390mm
Height = 395mm

Small pot is the bigw 19L pot, which i think is about 290x290

Your sizes look very close to mine


----------



## sponge

Hey everyone,

After coming to the realisation that a pseudo-BM may be the best option for me to upgrade my current 3V, I have a few questions due to the size of the pots I intend on using (170L kettle and 100L MP).

I noticed that the 50L BMs have 2 elements (1 internal to MP and 1 external) to help with ramp times and whatnot, and was wondering just how necessary these are for larger batches? Is it possible to have a few low-density elements in the main kettle but not having one 'internal' to the MP? I was hoping that with the use of the camlocks as feet, I could get away with having 3 x 3.6kw (or similar) standard elements rather than having to get a couple of custom built ones. I'm mainly just concerned about not having the internal element for the MP to help reduce the ramp times, especially on a larger system.

This self-imposed restriction is purely due to my next question as I don't plan on cutting a single large hole in the MP as per the BM, but using 3 x camlock fittings to hold it in place, similar to some of the other designs on here (still with a FB at the bottom to reduce channeling). I'll be using a chugger pump so am hoping that the chugger will handle 3 x outlets and the large volume to pump through. I'll have the threaded bolt to secure the mash filters welded to the base of the MP as opposed to the kettle.

I was also thinking of making say a 30-40L MP for smaller batches, and being able to re-use the kettle's camlock fittings to secure the smaller MP in place as well (which would mean ensuring that the position of the female camlocks on the kettle will be suitable for either the big or small MP). I have a fair few camlock fittings laying around so aren't too worried about using 3 male fittings on each MP.

I would then look at having 3 elements evenly positioned in the kettle (I'll be having 3P power to the brew shed) with the 3 female camlocks fitted in between the elements, 2 outlets to the recirc-pump, a PT100 in the centre of the kettle and a standard pick-up outlet. All secured (incl. control panel) on a single frame with castors (similar to Tony's), with a frame over the top holding an electric winch which will be able to lift the large MP.

Can anyone see any issues with what I've proposed? Any help on the above build would be greatly appreciated..


----------



## Maheel

how do you do up the cam locks or undo them when full of liquid ?

or do you use some method to hold it down from the top ?


i liked the twist lock idea someone had recently but three would not work

maybe a big one direct into a diffuser in the bottom of the MP ? 

i dont have a BM so got NFI really....


----------



## sponge

Pretty sure the weight of the full MP holds the camlocks fairly tight from what I've read. Cut the arms off the female camlocks for the kettle and the male camlocks on the base of the MP and they just sit in each other and form a pretty good seal without 'locking' them in place.

I think it was around page 10 or so that someone first bought up the idea of using camlocks. Not sure of the exact post number unfortunately..


----------



## Maheel

ok

i would have thought back pressure may have lifted it of the cam's but there you go.

take pics whatever you do 

i got plans for one but just waiting waiting...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Has anyone thought about instead of having a tie bar welded at the bottom, (in your case Sponge bottom of the MP) if toggle catches were used to secure a round tube or a piece of flat bar across the top of the main pot and a short length of all thread being secured to the centre of the bar or tube it would eliminate any welding for those without access to a tig welder.


----------



## sponge

Maheel, have a look at this guy's BM build. Shows the male camlock in the second post and towards the bottom describes how he assumed he'd have issues, but didn't end up having a problem.

WEAL, I was actually thinking about that today since I have both QDs and camlocks at home and thought a QD might be a better option. I was thinking of some options of a pull string or similar coming through the bar at the top. It almost sounded like too much effort considering as though camlocks seem to work anyway..


----------



## MastersBrewery

Sponge I'd think two elements @ 3600w would probably get you there.

MB


----------



## sponge

Cheers MB. Makes things much simpler not having to have the element exposed under the FB.

Do you know if a chugger (I think similar specs to a march) has the capacity for those batch sizes? The 200L BMs seem to have a decent pump on them..


----------



## MastersBrewery

Note my above comment assumes some insulation, and possibly a dome lid. 130L odd batches a chugger might get you there but adding a second pump and plumbing would be simple if you found it wasn't enough. I'd check around the commercial kitchen places for an ss bowl the diameter of that 170L. Still to do this for mine.

MB

ED: Note Lael was using a 2400w OTS to boost the boil and increase ramp times and I think he said his largest batch was 80L with 4800w


----------



## sponge

Thanks for that info. I've got a 2400W OTS on hand which I'll have for backup nonetheless. Sounds like 2 x 5.5kW should get me there nicely though.

I'll be insulating the kettle and I'll be using a lid (pretty sure the 100L and 170L lids will both be usable) during the mash but I may have to make up a domed lid at a later stage for the boil. Pretty sure 13kW (incl. OTS element) of power and some insulation should suffice though.

I'll see how it goes with a single pump, but as you say it would be pretty easy to add on another one if need be. I have both a KK and chugger pump at home so will be able to use them both if need be.


----------



## mje1980

You'll need room in the backyard for one of these sponge


----------



## mje1980

. So, if you go ahead sponge, I might be asking to have a look at your setup mate. No plans for a monster, but a smaller version that could be made up out of existing vessels ( like you're doing ) could be tempting. I'm hopeless with drawings and plans, but if I see it first hand the light bulb goes on and the brain starts spinning ( insert image of very old car being cranked over and smoke billowing out of the exhaust ).


----------



## sponge

One of those, or a sneaky tap in to a neighbour's connection.

h34r:

But don't do that.. I'm still in the process of getting our builder to confirm that his sparky is happy to connect 3phase/63A for our new place. Shouldn't be too much of an issue.. worst case is that we only get single phase/100A and when I'm brewing, that particular phase will be getting pounded like yesterday's beef. 3Ph would be ideal though, and have the 2 x 5.5kW on a phase each with my 2.4kW OTS and 2.2kW HLT (for sparging) on the third phase.

You can definitely see the setup once it's finished Mark. I'm still just finalising it all in my head (and on paper) and am happy to say that I really only need a couple more SS fittings (elbows, cross, union fittings, etc) and the brew stand for it all, which I'll be getting a mate to weld up for me (unless you decide to put your hand up  ). I'm looking at an electric hoist on some rollers/tracks (all built into the frame) to lift the MP out and be able to roll it along the tracks and drop it down next to the kettle and be able to easily tip the spent grain into a bag for the bin.

I'm not worrying about an IC for the kettle as I will continue to cube my brews, hop differently in the cubes and still give me some variety of brews from the same brew day. I've also been thinking of ways to say fill one cube with a mild-esque base, then boiling further for bigger beers or even cold steeping roast malts and adding to a 'second' boil to be able to get completely different beers from the same brew day. I just wasn't sure what effects adding finings & whirlpooling, then re-boiling and repeating, would have on the finished wort. This is getting off topic though..

I will have a 2-way valve coming off the outlet of the pump - 1 for the MP and 1 for the whirlpool - and have the WP return coming up through the base and forced around the side of the kettle through a pickup tube. I was hoping to do it this way to eliminate the issue of having a WP return located close to the top of the kettle and cause heaps of splashing if only doing a small batch. Hopefully having it come up through the base and out a pickup tube will suffice and cause a decent WP on a big batch..

EDIT: Added whirlpool info.


----------



## mje1980

Are you building? My welding is functional, but, well, not pretty . A guy at work is quite a good welder and likes the practice, so I get him to do most of mine now . 

Electric hoist is a great idea, and in general sounds like a very flexible setup mate, I'm cheering from the sidelines!


----------



## sponge

I was going to design/sketch a little something up and give it to my mate so that he could run his eyes over it and see how plausible it would be to manufacture and modify accordingly. It will end up being a pretty simple frame though (apart from the rollers for the hoist) and will really just be made of three sections, along with a mounting plate for the control panel.

One section will be for where the hoist can be moved to/from to clean out the malt pipe, the middle section where the 'BM' will be, and the remaining section for a HLT (50L keg) for sparging. Granted, it'll take up a little more space than a regular BM setup, but will allow me to easily sparge (with a pump from the HLT to the top of the 'hoisted' malt pipe) and make it a whole lot easier to lift and clean the MP.

The pots I have aren't crazy thick either so should be easy enough for me to do all of the work on the pots myself. I was originally thinking of getting my mate to weld all of the fittings on, but I always get concerned that I'll want to tweak something and won't easily be able to if they're welded, especially if I run into any issues when I eventually have it up and running. I'll just have to make sure I give it a real thorough cleaning every so often..


----------



## jonasbegood

Hi guys. I am looking for a system which could produce 10L from lets say 5kg grain. What would the ideal size of kettle and mash tun be?

What about a 21L(Ø32cm) mash tun, and a 40L kettle (Ø40cm) ?

And what about the pump for this system, what would the required liter per minute be?

I guess 2400W would be sufficient for boil, so I can run this on a 10A circuit.


----------



## gap

> Hi guys. I am looking for a system which could produce 10L from lets say 5kg grain. What would the ideal size of kettle and mash tun be?
> 
> What about a 21L(Ø32cm) mash tun, and a 40L kettle (Ø40cm) ?
> 
> And what about the pump for this system, what would the required liter per minute be?
> 
> I guess 2400W would be sufficient for boil, so I can run this on a 10A circuit.


My brewing software tells me you would end up with a starting gravity of 1.119 with 5KG of grain and 10 litres of water.


----------



## jonasbegood

Yeah, I just want to make sure I could make the high gravity beers aswell. I cant decide on which sizes to go for. 

Here are my basic options: https://translate.google.no/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.2080.no%2FKjokken%2FKjeler%2FRustfrie-kjeler%2FH%25C3%25B8y&edit-text=


----------



## CapnK

Jonasbegood,

Lael has posted a really good spreadsheet for working out the inner and outer pot sizes.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/69155-bonjuino-and-mathos-controller-30/page-14#entry1117162


----------



## jonasbegood

Thanks man!


----------



## jonasbegood

Ive played around with the numbers in the excel sheet.

I want to make 10L batches. I have a 40L 3-V system in the garage for summer use, but in the winter I could brew at my kitchen with a small system.

I can get somebody to produce the kettles as I want them. What do you think?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rwwdul19p5tsw1a/Jonas%20volume%20testing.xls?dl=0


----------



## MastersBrewery

jonasbegood said:


> Ive played around with the numbers in the excel sheet.
> 
> I want to make 10L batches. I have a 40L 3-V system in the garage for summer use, but in the winter I could brew at my kitchen with a small system.
> I can get somebody to produce the kettles as I want them. What do you think?
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/rwwdul19p5tsw1a/Jonas%20volume%20testing.xls?dl=0


Matho's original clone at the beginning of this very thread, produced 10-12L he did it with cheap pots and all for under $500. I think going down the route of custom made kettles will blow out cost for no apparent gain. He used a 19l bigW pot and a cheap shop 12L from memory, I think I actually have both hidden in my shed some where for next winters project. Most have had difficulty tracking down suitable perf, supports and filter. Having said that I've had my malt pipes custom made, for 30L and 60L finished volumes, my problem was multiple malt pipes using the same filter setup.

Good luck with the build.
MB

(oh yeah if your near by I have a spare BigW 19L or 2, pm me if you like as I think they are no longer available)


----------



## luisdepaula2001

Hello all,
Just starting to plan my build and would like feedback in which pump to use?
Chugger SS or the original Braumeister pump?
Do I need to build a support for a chugger pump?
Thanks,
Luis


----------



## lael

The pump doesn't matter so much. The new kit is designed for a 240v pump socket, though you can add a 12v outlet. You will just have a spare 240v outlet.


----------



## luisdepaula2001

Lael,
Can the kit work on 110V?
Also, I will buy the pump in the USA, so I can chose either one and their prices are similar.
Rgs,
Luis


----------



## lael

Yep! Anything up to 240. The power supply does the conversion down and the Rest of the parts can do up to 240


----------



## luisdepaula2001

So, on the pump, any recommendation?
As I'm planning a 20L system, I taught the Braumeister pump would be smaller, quieter and could be installed without any support.
Is the Chugger too loud and does it need to be properly fixed/level?
Thanks,


----------



## NealK

I use one of these and it works perfectly well for me.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12-Volt-Hot-Water-Pump-12v-15w-PV-Solar-Battery-or-Solar-Panel-100-145ps-/121172004903?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item1c366a1027&_uhb=1


----------



## shaodw

Hi guys, so I was ready for my brau clones first brew on the weekend. I have done many tests with just water the weekends prior and everything seems fine until this Saturday where all of a sudden the controller continues to show the temperature of 85c. I removed the probe and it reads 0c as it should, and I have never had this problem before, I have calibrated against my thermapen prior and it was working fine. 

I tried a search with no luck so postponed brewing and assumed my probe had died, so I purchased another probe from ebay which arrived today. Soldering complete and again it's just showing 85c - see below pic. 

Is there a simple solution? Any ideas?


----------



## lael

85C is an error temp. You will need to check your solders and the connection to your probe. Check the wire solders for any sockets you may have used in your temp probe connections.


----------



## shaodw

Hmm, well I just assumed because I hadn't opened my controller in a month that there wasn't a problem. Opened it and saw this 




Turns out that was the problem, thanks mate. First brew this weekend hopefully!


----------



## lael

ouch. that will do it!  Simple fix


----------



## CoxR

Hi guys, I have put my name down for the controller currently under design but I have not had a chance to start any of the build until last week. I have all the bits and pieces apart from the plumbing but that’s easy sorted. I am interested in some feedback regarding the cam lock idea, earlier comments in this thread expressed concern about channelling with the use of a small inlet. Is this a concern? I don’t plan on using a cam lock however the inlet with be much the same diameter.
Another question I have is the top plate aperture size, what is the largest aperture size you would want? I have access to some old lab sieves, If I cut the rolled edge of the sieve then put a silicone tube around the edge it will provide a very good seal between the sieve and the inside of the malt pipe and may not need any further fixing to hold it in place.
Cheers.


----------



## pbezza

Recently bought an aluminium 37.8L pot with inner sieve from BCF eBay store for $83.99 including delivery. Have used it only once in a biab setup so far. Am using a 2200W kettle element out of a $9 Kmart cordless kettle and had to bash a dent in the sieve to make room for it. Just need to make my ardbir cct board and it will be fired up every couple of weeks I reckon. This is the pot http://www.bcf.com.au/online-store/products/Crab-Prawn-Cooker-37-8L.aspx?pid=215769#Cross not as cheap at the moment but it does come on special from time to time.


----------



## Edak

CoxR said:


> Hi guys, I have put my name down for the controller currently under design but I have not had a chance to start any of the build until last week. I have all the bits and pieces apart from the plumbing but that’s easy sorted. I am interested in some feedback regarding the cam lock idea, earlier comments in this thread expressed concern about channelling with the use of a small inlet. Is this a concern? I don’t plan on using a cam lock however the inlet with be much the same diameter.
> Another question I have is the top plate aperture size, what is the largest aperture size you would want? I have access to some old lab sieves, If I cut the rolled edge of the sieve then put a silicone tube around the edge it will provide a very good seal between the sieve and the inside of the malt pipe and may not need any further fixing to hold it in place.
> Cheers.


You will definitely need something to lock that to plate in place. There is a lot of pressure under that plate enough to bend stainless steel u channel, so a tight fit won't be good enough.


----------



## CoxR

Thanks for the tip Edak, I can easily weld on some stainless over center latches to hold down the sieve. I am still unsure of the sieve size to use though is 1.18mm aperture size too big for the top filter?


----------



## Edak

I think that is perfectly adequate. Doesn't the original bm have 2mm?


----------



## CoxR

Thanks again Edak yes I am sure I have read the size for the original BM is 2mm however I have noticed that many people are using a finer mesh also. If this is required I can use a larger sieve size like 25mm hole size and place a fine screen under it. With you experience what way would you recommend, a top plate that is 1.18mm weave or use a 25mm square opening with an additional fine mesh?


----------



## Pirate323i

10/14/2014 8:58:12 PM : 
First batch and first all grain brew...
strike water in Braumiser ~6:45pm 14/10/2014
used hot tap water, boiling water and 75*C Urn water (only a small urn) - pretty close to mash in temp.
had issues with Ardbir... Grrr (I may attempt to re-write the code...)
used manual mode. cant rely on timer because it seems it only counts down when at or above target temp...
luckily I set the oven timer!
mashed out at 78*C ~15mins (same problem with timer above)
wasnt heating to Boil (dont know why) back to manual with pump to 85*C
all this time there is torrential rain with leaks in patio roof springing up everywhere (never been out here in the rain before) flash-flooding through the floor...
Miraculously where I placed the Braumiser it seems to be missing the leaks in the roof! Plastic bag over the controller...
10/14/2014 9:31:27 PM : 
been boiling for 23mins... loving the smell of the Amarillo!
reallised I dont have any sub 100g weights for our antique scales... 
looks like i will be scouring evilbay for some digital scales...
did the ghetto weighout of dividing the 100g bag by five (by eye), put two back in the bag, divided one fifth by four and put one back in the bag ending up with (hopefully) 15g, 20g and 20g...
10/14/2014 11:17:34 PM : 
5kg of ice into fermenter to chill... ended up approx 20 deg C
only ended up with 16L in fermenter... :blink:
there was a fair bit left as trub, perhaps 4 litres? and obviously about 4-5L soaked up by the grain. started with 21 and sparged with about 6...
27-8=19
so 3 L to evaporation? BeerMate says 2.6L so not too bad!
will pitch as is and try again next time!
have samples aside for preboil SG and OG to test tomorrow! (hydrometer is downstairs in the garage, I am not going to brave the cold wet rain just for a gravity reading)
it just about bed time!

It almost feels like success!
:beer:


----------



## lael

Nice work! The first brew is always an adventure. What were the issues with ardbir?


----------



## Lorby

Hello iam a big fan of what you are all doing! I decided to try to build my owne system.
I would like your input on the main vassle dimension if they are any good.
I have a 70L 46,5cm in diameter and 40cm hight. What would the mash pipe demensions
be and how much beer would i be able to produce. I was playing around whit the calculator but iam no so sure 
what i caculated. Thanks for all the input. Cheer from Europe!


----------



## MastersBrewery

100mm smaller, than the main vessel, works well, so 350mm x 350mm pipe will knock out a standard double quite easily, and a large Belgian say to 1.100 of around 28L


----------



## Deevotronics

I had the opportunity to get up close and personal with an Genuine Braumeister and based my build on the ratios of internal and external pipes based on what i saw. Using a 36 ltr external, 21 internal, 2400W heater. Get approx 25 ltr into fermenter. Currently brewing the Pilsner recipie from the Braumeister website, nothing but positive feedback on results.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/72377-laels-braumiser-build/?p=1165460

http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/pilsner-recipe.html


----------



## peterl1981

Heres my new build im doing my first brew tomorrow.. 

I made it out of used aquamax hot water service..

I have no rod in the middle. I used a couple of stainless claw couplings.
I have a 4.5kw element in it.

Hopefully all goes well tomorrow. ..

Huge thanky to lael and all you guy's on here.


----------



## djar007

That looks cool lynch man. Keen to see some more pics.


----------



## lael

Looks great! Love to see more pics too!


----------



## peterl1981

What dose this mean?


----------



## djar007

Screen scrambled. Probably happened when element was ramping up and pump kicks on. Start of auto mode. Or after a pump rest. Just pull the power and go back to auto. Then hit resume.


----------



## peterl1981

Heres a couple more pitures.. the first brew went unreal.. I couldn't be happier. .


----------



## djar007

Great stuff mate . what batch size you pulling out of her. Looks huge.


----------



## peterl1981

Yeah i could do 65l easy... I only do 2 keg brews.. I will probably work on another one, but for 4 keg brews for the next project...


----------



## jwollmer

Regarding screen scramble, the unplug work around works. But is there a fix?

Thanks for the help!


----------



## claypot

claypot said:


> Hey All,
> First of all thanks to all who have gone before and giving your time to report back here.
> Here a couple of things I have done on my rig that may suit others looking for other options.
> For the bottom malt pipe seal I used a pressure cooker seal from eBay -$5 or so. You would need to be handy with a MIG welder but.
> For the top clamp I used a removable brace. Will try to upload pics.
> I've used a 3 way valve - $30 eBay to divert to counter flow chiller after boil. All in all it looks a lot more shitier than I'd planned but it wasn't making beer while I deliberated over how to make it look better!
> I've been collecting parts for ages now and often think I should of just bought one. But where's the fun in that! All the stainless I had at home, so if you had to buy it, it may not be cost effective.
> Now to try and attach pics, Cheers,


Hey All,
Just a recap on my unit. Here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/57924-braumeister-nextgen-build/page-83#entry1196086
The slotted lid eventually bent and failed so got some 5mm stainless plate and slotted it with super thin cut off wheels. I have had to add as many slots as possible to get more flow. As I was getting grain compaction and even with the strong set up the lid was still lifting enough to spew grain out.
The efficiency has been pretty crap also, best I had was around 65%.
The best was on a hightail ale clone, the first I have done with any darker grains.
This got me thinking maybe the mash water PH. So added a teaspoon of gypsum to the next pale brew seemed to get a better efficiency but not great.
So I'm in the process of building a new malt pipe. As the first was only around 17 lts. This time using a Big W one, with a spatter screen at the bottom instead of the cut slots. 
I found a surround from an old stainless chimney flue that was perfect so migged that to the bottom of the pot so I could keep the whirlpool fitting. I even found that I could fit the pressure cooker seal to the bottom and seems to seal well although not mashed with it yet.
So I'm hoping that my efficiency will improve.
My mash has always been:
Mash in at single temp as below. Stir in well in 25 lt tap water (Adelaide)
1 - 1.2 hrs long @ single step of 66 to 72 deg depending on recipe. 
Mash out @ 76 -78 deg. - 10 min.
Sparge 7 lts @ 78 deg
I was lead to believe that little was to be gained in efficiency by multi step mashing when using modern grains so only ever done single steps.
I have tried stopping the mash and stirring several times but didn't improve things.
The other thing is I only have a on / off switch for the pump so wondering if there's channelling going on as I only stop the pump 10 - 15 times as I happen to pass during the mash.
It seems I could sparge for some time more and still have good runnings.
One of my reasons for going 1V was to get away from sparging and taking too much time up.
Some numbers from one of the best ones-
4.8 kg vienna
0.5 munich 1
0.2 caramunich
1 teaspoon gypsum.
1 hr @ 67 deg
Sparge 10 lt @ 78 deg.
SG after mash 1.045
23.5 lt into fermenter @ 1.049

Any thoughts much appreciated

Cheers Clayton.


----------



## matt211181

lynchman said:


> Heres a couple more pitures.. the first brew went unreal.. I couldn't be happier. .


Looks great Lynchman! So, you just twist malt pipe relative to the outer pot to engage the claw coupling for the bottom seal? Nice! How do you find them? Easy to use and engage/disengage?

Do you have any pics showing the bottom filter inside the malt pipe? How have you sealed the top filter to the malt pipe? I assume there's something inside the malt pipe that is used to screw the wingnuts down to put downward pressure on the top filter?

Cheers!


----------



## peterl1981

BobCharlie said:


> Looks great Lynchman! So, you just twist malt pipe relative to the outer pot to engage the claw coupling for the bottom seal? Nice! How do you find them? Easy to use and engage/disengage?
> 
> Do you have any pics showing the bottom filter inside the malt pipe? How have you sealed the top filter to the malt pipe? I assume there's something inside the malt pipe that is used to screw the wingnuts down to put downward pressure on the top filter?
> 
> Cheers!


Yeah the claw couplings work real well.. 
The perforated stainless steel just sits in bottom of malt pipe as the bottoms are domed.

I just welded some m10 bolts on top and acouple of lifting lugs and wingnuts.. when time comes to pull malt out I just hook it up to my 12v winch thats bolted to ceiling of shed. And use remote as required. I use sparge water out of my 3v brewery behind it.


----------



## TheMechWarrior

That looks great!


----------



## djar007

Your an ideas man lynchy. Top notch.


----------



## jwollmer

For those of you with drain valves on your builds what are you doing for dip tub? I have seen bazooka screened outlets for the Braumeister. I have run 2 batches through my build and am currently working on the final details.(currently using auto syphon to move wort from kettle to carboy)

Also, I am having similar efficiency problems but have been trying to not sparge to be more automated in approach. around 60%

Thanks


----------



## xredwood

60% ouch! Without sparging my first time using my brau clone I got 73% and haven't ever gotten less than 70% without dosrging. Any ideas where you're having issues? 

As far as draining I use the stock tap on my Birko urn without any kind of dip tube and just pour it from height into the fermenter to help oxygenate. If you get a good whirlpool going you end up with very little trub in the fermenter.


----------



## westo2014

Hello everyone.. firstly let me say its great to see this thread.. Ive been racking my brain for ages about ripping off the BM and making one myself..

I have many burning questions.. but there are alot of amazing DIY systems you boys have put together and I'm well impressed. 

My first question is, is there a consensus on what is "best" to use for the control/automation side Alan Bradly or Click PLC or a simple PID combined timer loop control?? this is the final piece to the puzzle . 

The [SIZE=12.6666669845581px]arduino PID is pretty hardcore to program and put an interface together.. the PLCs can be tricky and cost$.. whose using what and what are the drawbacks vs gain?? and you can get a PID controller with pt100 and 30A SSR for 40$ on ebay.. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12.6666669845581px]I'm going to construct a purpose built system aiming for 50L wort for the fermenter .. I will submit ideas for review and red pen once I hear back... [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12.6666669845581px]thanks for your time... amazing thread. I love aussie ingenuity. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12.6666669845581px]BR [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12.6666669845581px]ANdy [/SIZE]


----------



## stux

That's one thing that there is consensus on 

Use a Braudino, aka Matho's Controller

Its a Braumeister-clone shield with an Arduino

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/59563-mathos-controller/

And there is a Bulk Buy on nearly fully assembled kits going on right now

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/69155-the-brauduino-matho’s-controller-buy-thread/


----------



## westo2014

amazing... thanks.


----------



## westo2014

I think i'm going to get done for double replys.. but here goes.. 

Seals! seals between the mash pipe and the kettle and the mash pipe and the upper filter screen. 

what are you guys doing in regards to this?? and what supplies are you using clark rubber etc.. Ive been lurking around the forum and it seem you guys have problems with the seals and the mash/trub leaking into your wort. 

cheers

Andy,


----------



## westo2014

I think i'm going to get done for double replys.. but here goes.. 

Seals! seals between the mash pipe and the kettle and the mash pipe and the upper filter screen. 

what are you guys doing in regards to this?? and what supplies are you using clark rubber etc.. Ive been lurking around the forum and it seem you guys have problems with the seals and the mash/trub leaking into your wort. 

cheers

Andy,


----------



## dca

Does anyone know of a good alternative low heat density coil like Blichmann boil coil? It is probably one of the more reasonable thing they sell, but I heard of talk about dip elements that hang over the side possibly. Only ones I've seen are low power. 

I know there is the water heater element option, but those tend to get in the way and are relatively high watt density. Also wanted to avoid drilling more holes in pot if possible. 

I know some have done custom bend parts, but I am looking for 'off the shelf' to keep it simple and quick. Please advise if anyone knows of other option(s).

Thanks...


----------



## arzaman

Hi guys
A couple of update related to my all in one clone solution and Ardbir team development

*1) Silicone Heater*

It’s an idea that I have since long time ago: use external silicon flexible heater band in order to mange the mashing and boiling process
The advantages are more than one, have uniform heating without scorching the worth with immersion heater, have an internal surface without any interference for whirpool, easy cleaning etc…

Now the idea is a reality and prototype, I have requested some custome silicone heater to a specialized company and I have mounted on my BIAB pot
The bottom pud is around 800W @ 220V while the lateral band is 1700W
They are self-adhesive with special 3M glue and easy to install







First test are promising , I would like to run a full test from cold water to boiling logging time/power/temperature and share the result


*2) ArdBir automation - all in one board*

The ArdBir project is proceeding on many threads ..from SW features…to new HW set up
We decide to engineer an all in one compact board with atmel micro on board, USB interface, all ordinary interface (heater, pump, keyboard..) with component on the bottom and display on top.
The design is completed and here you can view the 3D rendering






PCB for few prototype have benne produced and we have sourced component














In a short time we are ready to test and share the info

stay tuned
Davide


----------



## arzaman

[SIZE=10.5pt]Las Sunday I have performed as promised some tests with current configutation:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]25L of water , silicone heater direct connected to power supply (220V AC) without any controller[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Recirculating pump always on, digital temperature probe and a wattmeter on the main supply[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]



[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Every 10 minutes I have a temperature sample as you can see in the picture[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]



[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]The rump up is quite good with more than 1C per minutes[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]After 1H 20’ the water start boiling and even if it is not a roll boiling like gas the evaporation was quite good.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]The video shows you the result[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]http://youtu.be/_kmqVdywYiI[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]The power absorption was around 2200W[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]



[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I can conclude that the technology is promising and adding a good thermal insulation can be used effectively for small volume and compact systems[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Next steps adding the ArBir controller and complete insulation[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Stay tuned[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Davide[/SIZE]


----------



## geogaga

micbrew said:


> hi guys
> 
> im in the process of building a bm clone
> and am wondering what is the best method of securing the 12mm s/steel rod to the base of my mash tun
> 
> drill hole and use hex lock nuts with silicone washers to seal
> as this will be what the top and bottom filter plates will be used as a locating pin
> could be prone to leaking :unsure:
> 
> or is there a better method


I will go with a round-shape stainless steel block that will have a thread in it, and braised to the bottom of the pot with silver soldering. The rod will have thread of the same size on its tip and will just be screwed in.


----------



## Ferg

Hi all,

What a thread, I cant say to have read every last post but I've tried my best.
I have a few questions to ask of previous builders but I wont put them all into the one post, ill just ask a few this time round!

Has anyone tried this pinchweld for the seal on the malt tube: http://www.clarkrubber.com.au/epdm-rubber-small-pinchweld-with-side-bulb-21mm-x-13mm.html 
The only potential issue I see is the material being too hard to compress the bulb and achieve a good seal, otherwise I think it would work quite well.

Second question - is the keg king pump suitable for the job? I am aiming for a clone similar to the 20l braumeister using the following pots: & http://www.livingstyles.com.au/40cm-45L-Stainless-Steel-Deep-Stock-Pot/10799/?search_words=stock%20pot I've found the pumps to be pretty gutless but perhaps its more than enough. 

Third question: What height is the thermowell that comes with the lael kit? I notice most people seem to put the thermowell outside of the malt tube beside the pump inlet - no issues with it being so close to the heating element?

Cheers,

Fergal.

Edit: link removed to first pot, its the soga 21l off ebay. 30cm x 30cm


----------



## zwitter

Hi Ferg

The clark rubber link did not work. Rubber is probably not recommended and anything with metal also not advisable. The recommended seal is the silicone tubing slit along its length and cut to length. Works for me and others. Have had people use seals from Braumister agents cut to length or the lid seals from pressure cookers. Big concern is is the seal good for the temperature and does it impart any flavour or chemicals?

You can use almost any pots providing there is space between the two for elements etc. i got a 50litre SOGO for main pot and it has sandwich base that has some advantage and some disadvantages. For internal pot go for one without I would think will make cutting easier.

I know some have been having pots made or even making their own. Getting a tall enough malt pipe can be difficult.


James


----------



## stux

Working link:


EPDM Rubber Small Pinchweld With Side Bulb 21mm x 13mm #38


----------



## Ferg

Hi James,

Not sure why that link didn't work, thanks for posting a working one stux.
The material is epdm which I feel would be suitable, the problem as you rightly pointed out it the metal inside the pinchweld part - assuming it does have metal running through it. I've dealt with a company called mills rubber who have hundreds of extrusions available which would be suitable for when you cut out the bottom of a pot, a lot of the 'e shape' ones would probably work, problem is they don't stock anything so I would either need to get them to do a run of an extrusion or find a stockist.
The braumeister malt pipe seal would not work as well for hole cut out of a pot as the seal is being compressed at the wrong angle (90 degrees). As you said though, silicone tubing with a slit down it will do the trick.

On the topic of the base - how do people normally cut out their hole? Does it being a sandwich construction make it harder or what? I would have thought with the aluminium layer it might have been easier to cut...


----------



## zwitter

Hi
The problem with stainless steel is that it work hardens very easily and quiclky. Basically you can use normal drills but the stainless may blunten them very quickly and you may not get through if it work hardens. 

I used standard drill bits to drill the smaller holes using small bit for pilot hole and then stepping up a couple of mm at a time drilling holes progressively larger to the size desired. For the big holes I used TCT hole saws. Tungsten carbide tipped hole saws cost a fortune but are cheap from China on Aliexpress or ebay. Can be around $10 each if you are prepared to wait. Or borrowed(thanks)

When drilling stainless use a slow speed, constant pressure and cutting fluid.  Best is to use a drill press but big pots will make that very difficult. I have managed to drill holes with a hand held drill with care. 

Sandwich base combines stainless with aluminium. Aluminium drills well but clogs the drill's flutes unless a cutting fluid is used. And if you back of the pressure when you hit the stainless you can work harden it. In some cases people sharpen masonry drills to cut stainless or use cobalt drills but the thickness of the pots means this is not required, just slow and steady with cutting fluid.

James

You may find someone local who can help or lend some of the bits. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Ferg

Cheers for your reply James, much appreciated. Just wondering what's the consensus on the keg king pump? Is it up to the task? Really excited to get this build underway, hopefully I end up with something nearly as good as a braumeister. Well something that produces as good a beer as the brau anyway!


----------



## zwitter

Hi Ferg
Not used a keg king pump

I have a chugger i bought new and a march i bought second hand. There is a pump called little brown pump and then kaixen (spelling?). I think many types work
I think I read the Braumister pump is a solar recirculation pump?

As long as the temperature is ok then it should work. The flow and pressure does not need to be very high. Infact many have to use extra valve to slow the flow.

James
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## angus_grant

I've got a chugger in my system and choke down to slow trickle for first 10 mins of mash cycle to soak the grains. 
Very rarely use full flow on chugger. Prob run at half on ball valve. No idea what actual flow rate is though in L/m.


----------



## Hpal

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/67670-kaixin-pumps/page-8


----------



## peth8r

Hi everyone, yet another build inspired by this forum for your information. Thanks to all the pioneers for sharing your clever solutions.

This build started with a cheap set of stockpots off ebay ($100 for 50,35,20L) probably a 400 series ferritic stainless and prone to rust discolouration/corrosion but I'm hoping that phosphoric acid senitiser will passitivate them. What these pots do have though, is domed bases (also thin and flexible) so I've been able to use them metal on metal without any additional sealing between main vessel and malt bucket . The pots are also self locating so I've avoided the central tie rod, instead using a clamping assembly off the sides.

I was going to use a wedge wire screen for the base screen, but couldn't find anyone that would sell (cheaply) me a small offcut, so the he bottom screen became a stainless pie tin cut with a dremel tool. The pie tin side lift side lift the screen and allow effective dispersing water through the grain. The top screen is the pot lid cut with the dremel. I have only used the brewery once but the screens seem effective and did not clog. 

Pump and fittings were sourced from KK and a marine chandlery, The heating element is from Tobins. Temperature control is via a cheap PID and PT100 RTD, which seems to be pretty accurate when pump is running but less so when not. Probably due to RTD being below the heating element. The electrics are pretty basic with direct switched pump motor and contactor and SSR switched heating element. Maybe one day I'll upgrade to a Braduino or similar system. I do plan to add a whirlpool pool pipe and maybe try a low pressure CIP system.

Cheers Mick.


----------



## arzaman

The 3rd version of my braueister clone is almost ready
The differences and innovations compared to the others are

-heating with external silicone heater
-full process control trough the Open ArdBir software running on a dedicate all in one board

Few things to set up and I'm ready for first batch

Stay tuned
Davide


----------



## arzaman

*[SIZE=18pt]1st ArdBir Contest !![/SIZE]*​
*[SIZE=10.5pt]Post on our Facebook page your BIAB system ArdBir powered and WIN a assembled all in one boar[/SIZE]*[SIZE=10.5pt]d[/SIZE]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Open-Ardbir/606829852720387

*[SIZE=10.5pt]Basic rules[/SIZE]*
[SIZE=10pt]· [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]write NEW post “ArdBir contest” on FB page[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]· [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]describe briefly your set up (SW and HW version, litre, recirculation, heating, pump..)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]· [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]insert one ore more picture showing ArdBir integration and any relevant technical details[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]The winner will be selected based on “like” on the post and ArdBir Team evaluation (criteria: most professional, innovative, original, well designed..)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Contest duration 2 weeks[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]people who has already posted their rig should resubmit ![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Enjoy[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Davide - ArdBir Team[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]



[/SIZE]


----------



## arzaman

Braking news !!

ArdBir software release 2.8.3 is ready for download !!

http://goo.gl/SXVZxn

It's the release candidate and we need your test and feedback

Please remember that after uploading the sketch you need to set all parameters!

Enjoy
Ardbir team


----------



## arzaman

Opne ArdBir and the single vessel brewing system have been selected for Arduino Day 2015 event

very proud of this and may thanks to all people in this form that contributed to this project







you can follow the event in live streaming and on twitter #Ardbir #ArduinoD15

https://youtu.be/sGCiiL0JQ5s

stay tuned!
Davide


----------



## rdavidsson

Hey guys,

Check out my new setup. This is a different kind of Braumeister clone. Instead of having the mashtun in the boil kettle it sits on top of it. So far i´ve brewed 4 beers with it and it´s working very well! The thread is in Icelandic, but you can use google translate or something to translate the text.

http://fagun.is/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3506

Best regards from Iceland !


----------



## CoxR

@ Arzaman.
You will have better results if you lagged / insulated to silicone heat trace. I use hundreds of meters of it for work of all different types of heat tracing but the critical thing is too lag the pipes.
It is a great idea though and I nearly went that way myself.


----------



## Judanero

Can you explain what you mean CoxR? Do you mean insulation over the top of the Silicon heat mat?


----------



## CoxR

Yes, I lag everything that is heat traced as it helps with stable temps all be it a longer time period than a 90 minute mash, but it will definitely help with ramp times. You use installation then go over that with 0.6 zinc or stainless sheet.


----------



## matho

wow who would have thought this thing would have gone so far, good work guys. Just to let everyone know I don't have time to respond to any questions anymore because of family issues but many thanks to those that have taken my basic idea and ran with it.


----------



## arzaman

*Open ArdBir NEW Release 2.8.3RC8 is now avaialble !*
https://goo.gl/qMhPgu
New features, some enanchements and corrections...lot of work since the original code adoption hope you appreciate it !

RELEASE NOTE
-Cooling process automation added
-Whirlpool process automation added
-pwm control for boil enhancement
-EEPROM remapping
-Bug Fix

Davide - ArdBir Team


----------



## lespaul

I've seen a few people use these for the bottom filter plates... How have they gone? And is there any problem with aluminium covered in non stick material with reference to having stainless pots?


----------



## Alex.Tas

I would be more worried about the nasty Teflon waaaay before any issues related to galvanic corrosion.


----------



## lespaul

Teflon at 100 degrees surely cant be as bad as baking at 200?


----------



## Alex.Tas

Yeah you are right, but when it starts to flake as all things do... 
Stainless would be ideal, but finding the right size at a reasonable price may be difficult. Aluminium would be okay, but a gasket in between would be ideal. Can you use the base of your pot as a filter plate or are you fabricating a pipe yourself?


----------



## lespaul

Im interested in doing this build, looking at 40x40cm outer pot and 30x30cm inner pot, some falsies for the top and bottom filter plates, and all the skin fittings, QD and piping.

does anyone else in Brisbane want to go halvies in some postage?


----------



## aamcle

One quick question - please

I know its in here somewhere, I read through when it was only 160 or so pages long but I don't want to do it again.

So, what's the highest grain to water (kg/litre) in the MP that's a reliable mash is not likely to cause trouble?


Thanks. Aamcle


----------



## lael

2.8L/kg is the lowest you want to go in my experience. Crush @1.2mm on mashmaster minimill. 

Eg: 30L MP/ 2.8 = 10.8kg of grain.


----------



## aamcle

Many thanks.


Aamcle


----------



## Ferg

Quick question, looking at my volume calcs for my build does anyone foresee any issues with me being able to do double batches? The highest gravity beers I will likely do be something along the lines of a duvel (8.5%). I would really like to end up with two fairly full kegs after fermentation.
Cheers, Fergal.


----------



## Ferg

Not sure why this didn't attach first time round...


----------



## lael

yeah it looks good. At a glance just a caution that from memory I don't think that size of malt pipe will allow you to do a single batch of a normal-low gravity beer, though high grav might be fine. Just means you will 'have' to make doubles for appx 1.040 beers. I haven't checked the numbers in the spreadsheet - you can do that by modifying the batch size column to check.


----------



## lespaul

Can I ask where you found the 32 x 40cm pot?


----------



## Ferg

Cheers Lael, I was a little concerned about any potential boil overs. If my calculations are right I will be 9cm from the top of the pot at my strike volume.

lespaul: Im getting it made actually. I couldn't find anything suitable and it can be made easily at my work so good enough for me.


----------



## lael

I've done a couple of 50L batch in a similar outer pot. I've never had boil over issues. I do use a hop-bag however. I've also done like 2cm from top on my large system. Remember the controller will keep you bang on boiling, not higher. The hop bag seems to also help.


----------



## Ferg

Happy days, that's good to know. I was probably a little bit impulsive when I bought my pot but it was labeled as a 72lt (45 x 45) when in fact it was (42 x 45). Something to watch out for I guess...
The excitement is starting to reach fever pitch!


----------



## lespaul

Getting pots made, lucky man!


----------



## Ferg

Yeah from offcuts too so hopefully at a five finger discount. In reality making the malt pipe is very straightforward and should be relatively cheap for anyone who goes down that route...


----------



## claypot

lael said:


> yeah it looks good. At a glance just a caution that from memory I don't think that size of malt pipe will allow you to do a single batch of a normal-low gravity beer, though high grav might be fine. Just means you will 'have' to make doubles for appx 1.040 beers. I haven't checked the numbers in the spreadsheet - you can do that by modifying the batch size column to check.


I've always wondered if it was possible to just take up some of the malt pipe space with "something else" rather than the extra grain for small batches?
It may of already been discussed here?
Finding some thing suitable and easily cleaned is the hard part. Maybe 2 - 3 liters of glass marbles. Some stainless spheres would be perfect if you could track such a thing down. Capped glass stubbies.. the list goes on I guess..


----------



## Ferg

From those who have built something already is there any benefit from having the controller as a stand alone unit? I'm thinking rather than attach it to the bottom of my pot I might keep the leads relatively long (possibly governed by the temp probe which is 1m I think) and having the controller detachable. That way I can have the controller at a more comfortable working height and am keeping it well and truly away from any potential leaks...

Any thoughts?


----------



## NealK

Mine is a separate unit. I find it easier to detach the unit for cleaning. I can also just hook it up to the power and program it without having to plug in the probes or power for the urn.
I also leave it on a shelf so that I can admire it even after everything else has been put away.


----------



## Ferg

I think that's the way I'm going to go too, hadn't thought about being able to program it so there's an added bonus!


----------



## MitchD

Mine is incorporated into a switchboard so the screen and buttons are at eye height. The bottom of the switchboard has the temp in, lead for the element (mine gets hard connected each time) lead for the pump and a hole to plug the usb cable into the arduino.


----------



## real_beer

I've mounted mine on a pole that slides up and down and swivels from side to side, it works great.


----------



## Ferg

Now that's impressive!


----------



## lespaul

just got a quote to build a base for the pots i have.
$275 ex GST... seems a bit steep?
anyone got any recommendations to cut down some cost?


----------



## wizard81

It has begun! Wish me luck!

I have read all 90+ pages of this thread, but no doubt, I'll be asking a few questions along the way!

Thanks to all who have put in the time and effort already to share their builds!!


----------



## wizard81

BTW did anyone end up using the IKEA Trivet for anything in their build? I got a couple, and thought they might be useful!


----------



## marc280

Has anyone found a place in Sydney that is willing to sell small sheets of perforated stainless for the filter plates? 

I've found a couple of places by they all only want to sell a full sheet. 

As another option if people are willing to split it a big sheet that could work. 

A sheet (2m by 1m) of 2mm thick 316 stainless with 3mm holes and 40% open area is about $800


----------



## SBOB

marc280 said:


> Has anyone found a place in Sydney that is willing to sell small sheets of perforated stainless for the filter plates?
> 
> I've found a couple of places by they all only want to sell a full sheet.
> 
> As another option if people are willing to split it a big sheet that could work.
> 
> A sheet (2m by 1m) of 2mm thick 316 stainless with 3mm holes and 40% open area is about $800


check with Lael... I assume (based on the apparent/hopeful future plans/interest in some pots/malt pipes) that he has found a supplier (though possibly only full sheet suppliers *shrug*)


----------



## Ferg

Thought it was about time I contributed something to this thread, some pics of my finished build. Thanks to all the contributors to this thread over the years and an even bigger thanks to Lael for taking care of the hard part!


----------



## lespaul

Nice one ferg!
What were the legs you used?


----------



## zwitter

Looks great
Where did the top screen come from.?
Jámes


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## SBOB

Ferg said:


> Thought it was about time I contributed something to this thread, some pics of my finished build. Thanks to all the contributors to this thread over the years and an even bigger thanks to Lael for taking care of the hard part!


what heating element are you using?


----------



## Ferg

The legs are 38mm ss tube with some adjustafoot fittings on one end and a circle plate with three holes welded onto the other end. I stud welded some M5x12 studs onto the base of the pot to attach the legs.

The screen is a custom that I got made at work. 2mm stainless, 304, 2B. 3mm holes at 5mm pitch. It has some tube welded into the centres which gives quite a tight fit around the 12mm centre rod.

The element is a U-bend-it from Romar elements (great to deal with), when I bought it I asked for some specs and got the following:

element would be 2400mm long aprox which would give us a watts density of 30w/sq"
element would be formed in a circle with an OD of 380mm and ends bent for bottom mounting
element is made from Incoloy 800 tube
glands are brass and soldered on with silver solder that DOES NOT contain lead zinc or cadmium


----------



## jerchappy

Looks sweet Ferg! I have a query i hope someone may help with. Almost finished wiring up Laels brauduino kit & using a 19l big W malt pipe into a 50 l outer pot. To work with pre-existing fittings for 3way tap & sight glass i am thinking of installing the elememt to sit above these- ie. Element coil from would sit 6cm at lowest point and i guess another 6 cm or so for the element. My question is for those with similar setups in standard grain bill- roughly how high does the liquid sit in outer pot with reverse flow malt pipe? I'd guess it would depend on flow rates as well but some idea would be nice! Cheers, Jerome


----------



## jerchappy

Looks sweet Ferg! I have a query i hope someone may help with. Almost finished wiring up Laels brauduino kit & using a 19l big W malt pipe into a 50 l outer pot. To work with pre-existing fittings for 3way tap & sight glass i am thinking of installing the elememt to sit above these- ie. Element coil from would sit 6cm at lowest point and i guess another 6 cm or so for the element. My question is for those with similar setups in standard grain bill- roughly how high does the liquid sit in outer pot with reverse flow malt pipe? I'd guess it would depend on flow rates as well but some idea would be nice! Cheers, Jerome


----------



## angus_grant

Depending on the dimensions of your outer pot, you would require a very high mash in volume to keep the heating element covered during recirculation

My pot is 40cm * 40cm 50L pot (19L Big W malt pipe) and I mash in with 25L and this only just sits above my heating element by couple of cms when heating up and recirculating for mash in. From memory my element sits about 7 cms at highest point above bottom of the pot.

I know for my big grain bills (6kgs) the mash in water volume is almost at the top of the malt pipe with grain in. This would make it hard to mash out as you have to take the top filter off to hoist out the malt pipe for sparging.

I think you'd be pushing it having your element at 12cm high in the pot.

You should be able to calculate your volumes using the spreadsheet in this thread. somewhere......


----------



## jerchappy

Great just the info i needed thanks. Will aim for a low profile and work around the fittings cheers. And will check out the spreadsheet


----------



## dumpa

Hello guys,

I bought an original BM50 spare gasket in order to build customized malt pipe. If I want to use this gasket, the malt pipe will be 350mm in diameter, is that right? Which is the thickness of the malt pipe stainless tube?

Tks

http://www.homebrewwest.ie/malt-pipe-gasket-braumeister-50-litres-3112-p.asp


----------



## MastersBrewery

yep 350mm on the BM 50 malt pipe


----------



## bionut

Hello,
i am planning a similar build and i have a little question. The wort is very clear after recirculation, but when you lift the malt pipe at the end of the mash doesn't the draining wort turn cloudy, like when you pull the biab bag out?


----------



## m3taL

So Instead of working today......... well i done some work but have sat here reading most of this.... toward the end i skipped a bit, which i will go back and read later on.

Iv Sourced a 20L Malt Pipe and strainers/filters and the top bar.
Iv got quote for my element coming trying to go 3000-4000w as iv got 40amps available for my current 3v ( runs 2 x 3600w elements in HLT and boil then 2200w in herms unit)

Now things i wanted to see if others have done....

Has any one used a Keg with the BM20 Malt Pipe. Im concerned that there may be too much of a sump in the bottom by the time you have the dead-space in the maltpipe and the domed bit on the bottom of the keg, But thinking it would be ok may just need a bigger volume. I see no issue with it sealing properly, only with the fact it will make the "Sump" volume larger.

Pump wise are the Silver pumps powerful enough? has any one used them? Iv got 3 here for my 3v system so was going to retro fit one of them up.

Not planning on using the auto control, Going to mount a Pid in the box underneath and a Pump Switch, Wondering if the pump needs to have a rest period for the malt to settle?

I Built my 3v herms (Separate herms unit) approx 2 years ago but lack of time at the moment to use it, By the time i set it up clean it and get it ready to run, then brew and clean etc its just a long process so thinking this may be a nice single vessel system to make a keg brew at a time. The malt pipe on the BM is like my main reason for wanting a BM in the first place, i like the idea of how it works and ease of cleanup etc.

The main reason behind using a 50L Keg is that i have a spare one, and they are strong so by the time i put the pump holes, element holes and the Malt pipe bar in im sure it will be strong enough. the Stainless pots iv seen will need re-reinforcement and i cant kick it when its not working properly.... 

Hoping to get the malt pipe tomorrow so i can work out the rest of the build around it. Pics will follow!


----------



## MastersBrewery

For single batch anything over 2400-3000w is over kill big time. And some where on here is a bloke who did a BM clone in a keg. Maybe in the pages you skipped.


----------



## m3taL

MastersBrewery said:


> For single batch anything over 2400-3000w is over kill big time. And some where on here is a bloke who did a BM clone in a keg. Maybe in the pages you skipped.


Cheers I'll read through some more, Def will be 3000w min as im used of boiling on 3600w at the moment in my current keggle last electric keggle i had with a 2400w element didnt boil hard enough for my liking  but agree 4000w is going to probably be way too much....


----------



## conjob

Greetings gentlemen,
I bought one of laels controller kits months ago in anticipation of a future build.

I've just started buying parts (so far just a 50L and 2x19L big w pots) for my build.

Thanks to all who have contributed for your advice. I'm up to page 59 of this thread so far and i think i've found a source for pretty much everything except filter plates.

My understanding is if i can find 2mm stainless (possibly thinner for bottom plate) with 2mm perforations then i don't need any further filtration/mesh or reinforcement. Have i understood this correctly?

Has anyone found a good source for filter plates for a big W pot malt pipe? I live in Sydney if that makes a difference.

Also i still don't 100% understand the securing of the bottom filter plate. Does it just fit over the threaded rod and otherwise move completely freely (kept square by the fitting) or is it stopped somewhere? And if stopped, in which direction (i.e. upper limit or lower limit)?


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## NealK

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/79602-another-braumeister-inspired-system/#
Check out the thread above and you can see a couple of different ways of doing it.


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## zwitter

Hi and you are in the right place

Mine is a 50litre pot and a bigW 19litre malt pipe.
I bought a few bits of plate for the filtre and then a metre odd of stainless mesh to go over the plates.
I started with a thin perforated plate with bracing and it worked ok. Now I have a thicker top plate with the mesh under neath.

The bottom plate does just sit but I actually made a bit of stainless pipe that slides down the threaded rod and fit a nut to hold it in place then top plates and another nut.
I am planning to make a tube the right length so only need one nut on the top as when pulling malt out it is very hot to undo the nuts. Another option would be a weight that would slide down the threaded rod or a stainless spring would also work.
I have tried to buy eyelets to make the hole more robust. As yet it is still under perfection.

The system works though and he only way to get it right is to try it out.
Use google and yellow pages. I got stainless plate in prospect and mesh in medowbank.


James


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Hpal

matho said:


> Yep it is a cool name so braumiser it is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BRAUMISER.jpg
> 
> cheers matho


Coulda called it the Mathlab


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## conjob

twitter and Neal K, thanks for the suggestions. 

Looks like there is no prefabbed solution yet, ill have to figure it out like everyone else.


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## lespaul

Suppose i need to get this project completed.

Just ordered all the nuts, bolts, wingnuts, seals, threaded rod etc.

My main road block has been the cost of the stand/legs. 

Can any welders advise if these legs (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mirage-Quality-Heavy-Duty-Stainless-Steel-Legs-Adjustable-150mm-165mm-/181824092496?hash=item2a558f7950:g:tMoAAOSwMmBVwaRw) can be welded onto the pot or a stand has to be made from them? 

i cant get a quote for welding for less than $300... hopefully if i buy the legs the welding will be cheaper -_-

Thanks


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## lespaul

also to who ever recommended these guys https://www.boltsnutsscrewsonline.com/ thanks, they were a bargain!!


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## m3taL

Iv done a bit more on mine, I dont a test run with grain and found using allthread the whole way the grain stuck to the thread when i removed the pipe... so i replaced my thread with some 12mm roundbar and tig welded 60mm of thread on the top


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## m3taL

Ferg said:


> The legs are 38mm ss tube with some adjustafoot fittings on one end and a circle plate with three holes welded onto the other end. I stud welded some M5x12 studs onto the base of the pot to attach the legs.
> 
> The screen is a custom that I got made at work. 2mm stainless, 304, 2B. 3mm holes at 5mm pitch. It has some tube welded into the centres which gives quite a tight fit around the 12mm centre rod.
> 
> The element is a U-bend-it from Romar elements (great to deal with), when I bought it I asked for some specs and got the following:
> 
> element would be 2400mm long aprox which would give us a watts density of 30w/sq"
> element would be formed in a circle with an OD of 380mm and ends bent for bottom mounting
> element is made from Incoloy 800 tube
> glands are brass and soldered on with silver solder that DOES NOT contain lead zinc or cadmium


Picked my Element up on Thursday went out to pick it up and met the guys there. mine was 380mm round 3800w Have just installed it and will wire it up tomorrow to give it a run... the element is quite easy to adjust here and there as required and sits very nicely in my vessel.

Reccomend Romar Elements 100%


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## m3taL

Righto Builds near finished, Now im at the Point of Either Mounting the control box to the small frame under the vessel or having it seperate on its own stand, or attaching it too the trolly i'll build that it sits on.

Mounting to Vessel Pro's
- Short neat leads, Keeps it all together, More like a traditional BM

cons
- Heat to box and heatsink,
- something to avoid during cleaning (I know its water Resistant but still)
- Its not at eye level 

Having on a Stand P/C
Pros
- Eye level & easier to use
- Portable 
- can be packed away when not in use
- could be used for other things 

Cons
- Not like a BM not a compact AIO unit
- Cords to trip on and possibly knock vessel over
- stand could be knocked over damaging unit


Im all over the shop, What recommendation do you guys have? those who are using their units etc


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## NealK

I brew outside, so being able to plug my controller in without setting up my whole rig means that I can program it and save settings long before I brew.
I say keep it portable


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## blotto

Yeah mine is portable as well, i like that i can keep it well clear when I'm spraying the hose around like a mad man trying to get my brew day finished in the dark. Plus I don't have the skills to weld up a mount on the base, or a welder lol.


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## A.B.

looks a great setup, the only thing I dont like is the tap outlet right above the electrickery controls, I'm sure I'd fry something if it was me...


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## m3taL

So Iv got 3 brews in on the new rig, First was a disaster and i called it off, the 2nd worked out well but had some conflicting readings on my refrac and hydro so i bought a new hydro, 3rd down yesterday, and still conflicting results but its looking like iv got around 68% eff

Im sparging with 10lt 2 lt at a time over about 20 mins

I have a tap on my pump and i forgot to turn it down and the grain bed compacted and started to bend the top support so i turned the pump off and stirred it up then ran the pump slower and it was fine.

Im wondering if anyone has had issues with pump flow and channeling, Im going to adjust my crush down a bit more as i have it a bit course at the moment.

Next brew i will adjust my crush a little and run my flow a bit slower.

How much flow through the malt pipe is recommended?


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## lehtinel

Finally got my Braumiser nearly completed (only some 3 years in total, moving back to Finland, renovating the house and life in betveen). Having problems with leaks a i pour in cold water. Small ripping, does not happen if I fill in hot water.


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## lehtinel

Last night I filled up with warm water and let it cool down, no leaks in the morning so I guess im ready to hook up the electrics and get going! Filter plates need a little smoothing out and I probably need a bar to hold everything down too.


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## lael

m3taL said:


> So Iv got 3 brews in on the new rig, First was a disaster and i called it off, the 2nd worked out well but had some conflicting readings on my refrac and hydro so i bought a new hydro, 3rd down yesterday, and still conflicting results but its looking like iv got around 68% eff
> 
> Im sparging with 10lt 2 lt at a time over about 20 mins
> 
> I have a tap on my pump and i forgot to turn it down and the grain bed compacted and started to bend the top support so i turned the pump off and stirred it up then ran the pump slower and it was fine.
> 
> Im wondering if anyone has had issues with pump flow and channeling, Im going to adjust my crush down a bit more as i have it a bit course at the moment.
> 
> Next brew i will adjust my crush a little and run my flow a bit slower.
> 
> How much flow through the malt pipe is recommended?


On a mashmaster mini I crush around 1.2mm. Run recirculation slowly for a while and then try to turn it up a little. I find it mostly depends on crush, how much flour you have, and the types of grain. 

Worst for me has been when pushing the capacity of the malt (the boundary seems to be 1kg grain per 2.6L of malt pipe) with a dark beer (RIS). I think the dark grains are hard because they Shatter more easily and then clog.

The flow will improve when you hit warmer temps (around 55/60 I think.) But, not if you have too much flour. 

Edit: you don't Need much flow - I've had some mashes running quite slowly and still reach high efficiency.


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## claypot

m3taL said:


> So Iv got 3 brews in on the new rig, First was a disaster and i called it off, the 2nd worked out well but had some conflicting readings on my refrac and hydro so i bought a new hydro, 3rd down yesterday, and still conflicting results but its looking like iv got around 68% eff
> 
> Im sparging with 10lt 2 lt at a time over about 20 mins
> 
> I have a tap on my pump and i forgot to turn it down and the grain bed compacted and started to bend the top support so i turned the pump off and stirred it up then ran the pump slower and it was fine.
> 
> Im wondering if anyone has had issues with pump flow and channeling, Im going to adjust my crush down a bit more as i have it a bit course at the moment.
> 
> Next brew i will adjust my crush a little and run my flow a bit slower.
> 
> How much flow through the malt pipe is recommended?


Hey Mate,
It seems I have a very similar set up to yourself.
I have a chugger pump and have always had issues with grain compaction, channelling and bending stuff even with a heavily braced 5mm stainless slotted plate. 
I too have a ball valve on the outlet and is only open around 10%. I have only just finished putting Lael and co's controller together and hoping that plenty of pump cycling will help. It would also be great if I could fit a pressure switch to the supply that would stop the pump for a minute on a high discharge pressure as well, but not sure if this could be done, this may then maximise flow through the grain bed.
So yeah I can't put much flow through my system, interestingly the flow doesn't seem to have much coloration to my efficiency.
I don't sparge, 31 litres at the start, 21 litres into the fermenter, 3 litres of trub.
Big W 20 litre malt pipe with 150mm riser. 50 lt keg with element in the middle. Mash in at 55deg then up to single mash temp, anywhere from 66deg to 76deg. Mash out at 78deg - 80-deg.
My efficiency was also very poor in the early days - 60%, the best I have got now is 75% I increased the crush to 1.2mm as mentioned above. 
Still tinkering once I'm happy I'm going to start on a bigger setup.


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## MastersBrewery

Don't chase numbers if your in the 70's just try and hit the same number consistently. I don't know if you add brewing salts, but I gained 5 points nailing the ph, I usually hit 75% eff but some brews have suprised me the last @ 87%, though I have 2 malt pipes and I sparge. I think I am getting different numbers with the bigger malt pipe due to greater liquor to grits ratios.


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## SBOB

MastersBrewery said:


> to greater liquor to grits ratios.


perhaps if you stop adding grits to your mash it might help... unless you're adding corn as an adjunct


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## claypot

MastersBrewery said:


> Don't chase numbers if your in the 70's just try and hit the same number consistently. I don't know if you add brewing salts, but I gained 5 points nailing the ph, I usually hit 75% eff but some brews have suprised me the last @ 87%, though I have 2 malt pipes and I sparge. I think I am getting different numbers with the bigger malt pipe due to greater liquor to grits ratios.


Yeah good point it only costs me a bit more grain I guess.
I got a PH monitor but haven't got round to calibrating and using it yet so really should take the time.
I add a teaspoon of brewing gypsum but with out measuring the PH who knows if its enough.
Good point with the malt pipe I find with the big W malt pipe it's pretty maxed at 5+kg of grain. My S.G doesn't change a lot with a lower grain bill ether.


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## claypot

So in my endless quest for more malt pipe flow I stumbled across these from a UK forum.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Custom-Woven-Wire-Mesh-filter-Disc-Circle-Stainless-Steel-304-316-/251730183029





It got me thinking if it was possible to use this only, with out the perf plate.
Now I've seen first hand what the pressure behind a compacted wad of grain can do to the top plates.
So every thing I know says it won't work. But if there is no resistance to the flow then there can't be a build up of pressure that causes the blow outs.
The .9mm wire one is 74% open area.
As it has a 4 or 6mm stainless ring welded to the out side. It could be sat around the outer edge of the malt pipe then clamped with a ridged ring on top. See drawing.



A silicone seal or pressure cooker seal could be used to help clamp the mesh to avoid movement and wear.

Who for see's much gnashing of teeth, spilt grain and astringency?
Who thinks it might work?

One of the screens they do is 1.2mm mesh, but down to 65% open area.

It does however cost up to $70 with out postage from U.K.
But I'm having visions of grain floating and swimming free and unrestricted amongst a gentle current of wort goodness...


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## lehtinel

First startup for my build didn't go to well for the electronics side. Temperature sensor was showing all kinds of readings, nothing close to the real water temp. Heater just snapped and blinked the light as i tried to start it and the pump showed no signs of life at all. I suspect I could have the pump wired wrong, it's a 240v original Braumeister type. If anyone has a picture showing the insides of the controller with 240v pump wiring I would gladly compare it. 

Checked the controller, comparing it to mathos instructions and everything seems to match up. No leaks though, and Im sure this is just a place for checking everything once more.


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## lehtinel

Wohoo, now we're cooking...and soon even brewing back here in Finland too. Rewired the pump (had it connected to the SSR earlier, so that explained the wierd behavior). All good now as I moved it to the AC input.

Temp sensor still at 0c so don't know whats up with that.


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## lehtinel

I've been carefully testing out my rig the past few weeks. A little concerned for my power cables as the heating element and main connecting cable get a bit warm when Im drawing full power. Otherwise everythings running nicely, the insulated pot helps the heat build up quick. Still waiting for my push down bar to arrive before I can start brewing. 

Pondering on shifting the power cables to 16A ones, unfortunately that would mean new connectors too.


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## lehtinel

A few pics of my build:


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## lehtinel

Did my first brew during the weekend. My top plate didnt stay level (had no tubing to support it so no surprise it didnt), so some malt ended up in the wort. Other than that it went well. Ended up with some 12 litres of wort (started out with 23 litres + 2 litres for the sparge). Gravity was a bit over the goal at the end. Now fermenting nicely.

For ideas on wether to mount the controller or not. I would go with having it seperable from the main unit. Less hassle when cleaning, im gonna do this for mine.


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## micbrew

Hey lehtinel 
I mounted my controller on a Tv bracket approx $25 .. Stole this idea of a member works treat .. My set up is on 15 amp circuit .. Gets a bit exy with connectors but well worth it ... Fit a computer fan to keep heat sink cool .. Otherwise looks great 
Micbrew


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## lehtinel

micbrew said:


> Hey lehtinel
> I mounted my controller on a Tv bracket approx $25 .. Stole this idea of a member works treat .. My set up is on 15 amp circuit .. Gets a bit exy with connectors but well worth it ... Fit a computer fan to keep heat sink cool .. Otherwise looks great
> Micbrew


Nice solution I'm sure, post some pics, please? :super: 

Monitored my box and connector temps during mash and boil. Connectors and heatsink at 40-50c degrees when both the pump and heating element are on / drawing full power. Opened my box after the brew to check nothing melted or broke and everything seems fine. 

Trimmed a support for my top plate so it will stay level, will also put silicon tubing around it for the brew so nothing can escape from the sides.


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## lehtinel

Next brew is gonna be a Guinness clone. Ingredients already arrived so as soon as I can find the time I'll get it going. First brew, K.I.S.S IPA now in secondary fermentation under the house @ 14c, with 50g Centennial hops.


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## Boxcar

Picking up an old thread as I haven't found a new/continuation thread. If one exists, apologies in advance.

I didn't see these items mentioned in the 90+ pages, but some may find them interesting...

14" Silicone gasket from Aliexpress (other sizes available) - seems well suited for Malt Pipe.






Red Silicone Gasket - (ebay) (make any size gasket you want)





Flat silicone strip (eBay) for sealing holes in the Malt Pipe (holes around perimeter at different levels to do different batch sizes with a single pipe)






Blichmann's Boilcoil will fit many vendors' standard kettles (including those from SSBT, Amcyl, etc..) - powerful enough not to require a second coil within the malt pipe.





If you'd rather not make your own controller, you can use Grainfather Connect (Bluetooth) with third-party elements (of any wattage) by making a simple solid state switching box to control power switching to the heater. Just DC-AC SSR (of suitable current handling capacity) and then use a DC power adapter plugged into the GF's heater-out power connection to trigger it. The GF controls output power via ON/OFF cycles determined by PID.


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## malt junkie

bluetooth for a data is a little sucky. Therefore the next generation of the controller will be wifi, I have the prototype on the work bench and will start testing next week. 

cheers


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## Boxcar

I'm eager to see how your controller pans out, especially on the front end. As far as I'm concerned, the back end control circuitry can always come in an easier to install package for novices but the most difficult and time-consuming part of a really polished solution is what most people ignore or simply forget about, the front end.

I'm sticking to the GF Connect controller because it's polished and has a great software stack under regular development. I'd much prefer WiFI if for no other reason than to concurrently connect to the controller from multiple devices at once - I'd use one locally for a display and another remotely. But BT will work in a pinch as the device doesn't need to be connected to the controller to manage any part of the mash/boil, so it's OK to make/break the pair at any time.

I also don't have time to screw around maintaining a controller.  IMO, there's nothing out there from anyone right now that truly comes close (polish and in a finished state), not even Speidel's solution. On the "get your hands a little dirty," the front-runners, again IMO, are CraftBeerPi and soon (possibly) BrewPi Spark (v3 with software in development).


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## malt junkie

I follow your thinking, how ever using a pi (micro computer) to run a wee little brewery is a kin to installing a nuclear reactor to power same. Micro controllers have their place and this is it. I gave up watching Brewpi spark dev after the first year of little head way, that may well have changed by now and Elco has a good track record on producing a quality UI and finish so for me the spark in the near future.


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## eresh666

Guys need to confirm glands size? Ordering a Romar double ring element 2400w http://www.romarelements.com.au/product-category/specialised/brewing-and-distilling/

However they want to confirm glands size? Anyone know what is normal? I have not yet looked that far into how I will piece if together only working on collecting main parts so far.

I was wondering what glands, but that is humor for another time.


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## zwitter

Hi eresh666

Really that is something only you can answer.
Mine has two of elements like their "double ring ones" and the holes are bigger than 3/8. I bought them locally from Tobins and bent them to shape. They cost about $100 each delivered.

James
Zwitter

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## zwitter

Hi again eresh666

How big is your pot?
Mine is 50 litres and Imstarted with one 2400w element and it was very slow to heat and boil was weak. I resorted to an over the side 2400 second element. About a month back I finally finished installing a second element in the base same as first. So now I have 4800 watts and it is quick to heat up and the boil is very good! 

The pot probably at mavimum would only have 30 litres in it but it needed more than 2400watts.

If you have the latest version of the Braumiser controller it has 2 SSRs to run second element from a different circuit. I have a 40 amp circuit for a welder so can run it no problems.

James
Zwitter


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## eresh666

Thanks Zwitter, yep 50L keggle however aware of the slow boil given I use a similar element (side entry) for BIAB. Just checking out tobins website now.


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## Boxcar

Ask if they can do greater than 2400W by going 3 loops. Otherwise, you might check prices on a Blichmann BoilCoil which would offer about 4500W for a 50L pot (13.4" outside diameter for the element). The BoilCoil comes with all mounting hardware, long power cable and L6-30P plug (which you likely have to change for AUS or install L6-30R receptacle somewhere with 30 amp min service)


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## malt junkie

Lets call it technical issues!
Closest 1 of the first 10 to ever be made ( thanks matho) and still working!
Next we have a 2.1 that let out a puff of smoke. (I got this covered)
Then is Lael's kit that's been tested but never fired up a brew.
The tiny board on the end is the next iteration.
Have my work cut out for me. Better get some sleep.


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## Meddo

eresh666 said:


> Guys need to confirm glands size? Ordering a Romar double ring element 2400w http://www.romarelements.com.au/product-category/specialised/brewing-and-distilling/
> 
> However they want to confirm glands size? Anyone know what is normal? I have not yet looked that far into how I will piece if together only working on collecting main parts so far.
> 
> I was wondering what glands, but that is humor for another time.



I recently bought two of these Romar ring elements but haven't installed them yet. Standard they come with 1" BSP bases which are just over 33 mm outer diameter on the threads (you can Google the exact conversion if you need it) - they'll need a 34 mm hole in the pot wall to install.

You can request larger bases if you prefer but they may need to be ordered in and would probably add to the price. Give them a ring, they're quite helpful - but make sure you send a diagram if you want something non-standard to make sure nothing gets lost in translation over the phone.

Edit: sorry, I misread your question. Perhaps the base isn't included as standard, might be an easier option to get the element with one though if you're not confident with the glands.

Pic of mine:


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## rsmallri

What wattage and diameter is that? Also price if you don't mind me asking?


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## malt junkie

Issues loading the latest sketch from git hub. Now I've flashed lots of boards over the last few years but this has me stumped. And it is a flashing issue as I tested with Lael's mega (that doesn't fit the case being used for a mates controller) and my original uno with 16x2 LCD, Everything works. I flashed a new arduino (3x Arduino Uno rev 3 for 20x4 LCD) and everything but heater will come on. And I made the right selections because the pump pin out is unique to Matho's board and it works. I've had a rudimentary look over the sketch, all looks fine. Using all the latest stuff as my windows pc had issues and died.

Can some one send me their copy of the ArdBir 2.83 sketch?

Be muchly appreciated


Mike


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## dumpa

Https://www.dropbox.com/sh/igkch19thwd64ey/AABxEf0zEHHt2Qopm7DZVu6Ca?dl=0


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## malt junkie

dumpa said:


> Https://www.dropbox.com/sh/igkch19thwd64ey/AABxEf0zEHHt2Qopm7DZVu6Ca?dl=0


Cheers, owe you a beer!


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## Meddo

rsmallri said:


> What wattage and diameter is that? Also price if you don't mind me asking?



2400W, I think 390 mm diameter. Can't remember exact price but was probably around $80 each give or take. Give them a bell if you're interested and they'll let you know specs and price. They also do them as straight/folded versions and can be bent to shape as required - they made up these for me for a similar price to use in a previous version of my rig:


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## buggybouy

Just thought you might want to look at my version of the Braumeister. Installed a couple of 3 way valves so I had pumping/dumping options, works well on the outlet when getting a whirlpool going during the chilling phase.


----------

