# Does dry hopping add bitterness?



## brewdjoffe (28/2/17)

I know that this topic has been covered in the past but I'd like to reopen the discussion. 

The last couple of brews I've done have been AIPAs. Generally I'll use a small amount of hops (15/30g) as a bittering addition at 30 mins, and then use quite a lot of whirlpool hops (around 100g) at flameout. The hops have differed in variety but I'm mainly sticking to Columbus, Centennial, Simcoe, Citra and Mosaic.

After about 10 days or so when I take a sample of the beer it tastes great and there isn't too much bitterness on the backend. I know that this probably isn't an exact representation of what the beer will taste like once it has conditioned in the bottle. 

Then I dry hop. Again I'll generally use 60/90gm in the dry hop with mainly Simcoe, Mosaic, Citra (depending on recipe). I'll leave the hops in there for 3/4 days in a hop bag. When I take my final sample before bottling there is MUCH more bitterness than the previous sample and this stays all the way through bottling.

I appreciate that AIPAs are supposed to be bitter but I'm looking to create something on the lower end of the IBU spectrum to let the flavour of the hops shine through. 

Does anyone have any suggestions?


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## Bribie G (28/2/17)

I'm convinced that dry hopping does add bitterness, especially if you are chucking in a whole foil of very bitter hops such as Citra. When I intend to dry hop I always add my bittering for 30 mins.

Chew a hop pellet and see:

Edit: this is something that I'm interested in, my fave APA is Four Pines Pale Ale which is basically the only Aussie craft beer I'm prepared to chuck out $20 a six pack for, and love the upfront / aroma hops. Maybe you could send a grovelling email to a couple of crafties and see if they have any hints?


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## MHB (28/2/17)

Absolutely not, dry hoping can't add any bitterness because Alpha Acids are practically insoluble in "cold" (say under 60oC) water/wort/beer and don't become soluble until isomerised by boiling (or at least being hot for a long time).

I suspect that a lot of home brewers cant tell the difference between Bitterness and Hop Taste. Quite a lot of hop taste can be extracted when dry hopping, it just isn't really bitterness.
If you put some hops in a bit of water and boil them for an hour, add the same amount of hops to tap water and leave them to soak overnight at air temperature, taste the two side by side at the same temperature, one will be bitter the other has hop taste
Might help you to differentiate between the two.
Mark


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## manticle (28/2/17)

It can't add IBU through isomerised alpha but there are other compounds in hops that provide bitter taste. Try your experiment above Mark and I reckon you'll discern bitterness in addition to hop flavour. Yes the boiled one will be more bitter but bitterness will be present in both.
When you chew a hop pellet, that bitterness isn't isomerised, dissolved alpha acid either but it's distinct.


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## Droopy Brew (28/2/17)

Agree with Manticle. It doesn't add IBUs but to my taste buds there is definitely a more perceived bitterness with heavy dry hopping.


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## GalBrew (28/2/17)

So dry hopping and bitterness is not as simple as previously thought. Apparently oxidised humulinones are approximately 66% as bitter as isomerised AAs, so dry hopping can add bitterness to your beer (sometimes anyhow). Here is a link for more details: 
http://scottjanish.com/increasing-bitterness-dry-hopping/


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## drsmurto (28/2/17)

GalBrew said:


> So dry hopping and bitterness is not as simple as previously thought. Apparently oxidised humulinones are approximately 66% as bitter as isomerised AAs, so dry hopping can add bitterness to your beer (sometimes anyhow). Here is a link for more details:
> http://scottjanish.com/increasing-bitterness-dry-hopping/


From a quick perusal of that blog link, I can't see in the final experiment where he has done a control. There is a final IBU concentration post dry hopping but where is the IBU of the base beer without dry hopping? If so, the result is meaningless.


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## GalBrew (28/2/17)

This is a better post than the previous link. The referencing is horrible and I don't have the inclination to trawl through the entire bibliography, but there does seem to be evidence that dry hopping can add bitterness to a beer through humulinones. I've included a couple of papers from hopsteiner but it's not the whole story:

http://scottjanish.com/dry-hopping-effect-bitterness-ibu-testing/

http://www.hopsteiner.de/fileadmin/redeakteur/pdf/neuigkeiten-berichte/technische-veroeffentlichungen_NEU/2016/Humulinone_Formation_in_Hops_and_Hop_Pellets_and_Its_Implications_for_Dry_Hopped_Beers__J.Maye__R.Smith__J._Leker__-_MBAA_2016.pdf

https://hopsteiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/TQ-53-3-0808-01.pdf


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## Bribie G (28/2/17)

Although his own experiment is dodgy, the literature he refers to suggests that:

"So translating this to a homebrew 5 gallon batch terminology, when the low 8.6 IBU beer was dry hopped with 142 grams of centennial there was a net increase in IBUs of 18.5 IBUs!"

This seems to be similar to the OP's dry hopping schedule.


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## pat_00 (28/2/17)

I heavily dry hopped a beer with galaxy and it definitely increased the bitterness. Haven't had this issue with other high AA hops.


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## MHB (28/2/17)

Someone should look up the definition of IBU's, it has little to do with "taste" but is rather a measured quantity, like Colour or SG.

An *International Bitterness Unit* (IBU) is a measure of the *bitterness* in beer. One IBU is equal to one milligram of isomerized alpha acid per liter of beer. Isomerized alpha acids are the main *bittering* acids derived from hops.

Even a quick read of Wikipedia will help with an understanding of the subject.
Mark


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## manticle (28/2/17)

That's exactly my point - IBU (or BU) is measuring isomerised alpha acid. Quantifiable. So - there are other components in hops that provide a bitter sensation. Tonic water is bitter but not due to isomerised alpha acid for example.

Note the term 'main' from your sentence above (as opposed to 'sole'' or ''only''). There are compounds in hops, apart from isomerised alpha acids that contribute a bitter sensation to beer (or water if you want to go back to your steeping experiment).


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## Spiesy (28/2/17)

manticle said:


> isomerised aloha acids


Is that like, bitterness, but from really tropical vibe hops?


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## Droopy Brew (28/2/17)

MHB said:


> Someone should look up the definition of IBU's, it has little to do with "taste" but is rather a measured quantity, like Colour or SG.
> 
> An *International Bitterness Unit* (IBU) is a measure of the *bitterness* in beer. One IBU is equal to one milligram of isomerized alpha acid per liter of beer. Isomerized alpha acids are the main *bittering* acids derived from hops.
> 
> ...


That's why I like the term percieived bitterness.
My olfactory system tells me it is more bitter therefore as the consumer of the beer it is more bitter.
However that does not mean there are more IBUs.

Same with smooth vs harsh bitterness. The IBUs may be the same for a beer hopped with say Saaz at 60 minutes and one hopped with Galaxy at 60 minutes but a blind testing will have close on 100% of tasters tell you the Galaxy beer tastes (or is perceived as) more bitter -cohumulones at work.


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## Droopy Brew (28/2/17)

To answer the second of the OPs questions. If you are chasing a smoother bitterness or even lower IBUs with a pronounced hop profile, try using a first wort hop for about 1/3 of your intended IBUS and the rest of the IBUs at whirlpool. Dont forget to use software that accounts for IBUs at whirlpool as some of them count it as 0 which is not the case.
Also look for hops with a low cohumulone content (sub 35%). Higher cohumulone hops tend to add a harsh bitterness if used early in the boil eg Galaxy.

Using the above schedule (I usually chuck a few in at 10 minutes too) you should get plenty of flavour and aroma without the need to dry hop.


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## GalBrew (28/2/17)

So if you read he papers you will find that dry hopping can increase the measured IBU of a beer (compare the control and control + 1lb/bbl cascade dry hop results). Not only that but the extracted hop fraction analysed for IBU contains a whole bunch of stuff other than isomerised AA. Humulinones are one of the compounds that contribute to bitterness and measured IBU, although the authors state that IBU is
an inaccurate measure of bitterness in heavily dry hopped beers due to the various bitter compounds in the beer and their differing affects on the bitterness profile and that is why they advocate the use of HPLC.


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## manticle (28/2/17)

Spiesy said:


> Is that like, bitterness, but from really tropical vibe hops?


It's all about the vibe.


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## manticle (28/2/17)

GalBrew said:


> So if you read he papers you will find that dry hopping can increase the measured IBU of a beer (compare the control and control + 1lb/bbl cascade dry hop results). Not only that but the extracted hop fraction analysed for IBU contains a whole bunch of stuff other than isomerised AA. Humulinones are one of the compounds that contribute to bitterness and measured IBU, although the authors state that IBU is
> an inaccurate measure of bitterness in heavily dry hopped beers due to the various bitter compounds in the beer and their differing affects on the bitterness profile and that is why they advocate the use of HPLC.


Haven't read your linked paper yet but I did read an article somewhere recently (possibly BYO) that suggested similar.


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## citizensnips (28/2/17)

Yes it increases bitterness.
Where's my peer reviewed journal you may ask......my palate. Time and time again I brew double batches and dry hop one 1 of 2 kegs just for fun and just to learn a little more about hop variety, quantities, time, temperature and of course aroma and flavour. Every time however the dry hop beer comes out as being perceived as having more bitterness. As manticle mentioned however, whether that directly attributes to how we quantify bitterness in beer....who knows. All I know is it ends up altering our perception of the beer and can therefore lead to balance issues, meaning it becomes necessary to adjust for in your recipes, because at the end of the day it's what you taste, not the number of IBU's on your spreadsheet.


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## Liam_snorkel (28/2/17)

yes. one time I heavily dry hopped an underwhelming pale ale with Wai-iti (AA ~3-4%) and it made the beer taste much more bitter. Like bitter lemon peel.



MHB said:


> Absolutely not, dry hoping can't add any bitterness because Alpha Acids are practically insoluble in "cold" (say under 60oC) water/wort/beer and don't become soluble until isomerised by boiling (or at least being hot for a long time).
> 
> I suspect that a lot of home brewers cant tell the difference between Bitterness and Hop Taste. Quite a lot of hop taste can be extracted when dry hopping, it just isn't really bitterness.
> If you put some hops in a bit of water and boil them for an hour, add the same amount of hops to tap water and leave them to soak overnight at air temperature, taste the two side by side at the same temperature, one will be bitter the other has hop taste
> ...





MHB said:


> Someone should look up the definition of IBU's, it has little to do with "taste" but is rather a measured quantity, like Colour or SG.
> 
> An *International Bitterness Unit* (IBU) is a measure of the *bitterness* in beer. One IBU is equal to one milligram of isomerized alpha acid per liter of beer. Isomerized alpha acids are the main *bittering* acids derived from hops.
> 
> ...


the question was about bitterness (or perceived bitterness as Droopy said)

IBU is not the definition of bitterness, it is just a convenient way of measuring the contribution of bitterness by the isomerisation of alpha acids.

so heavily roasted malt isn't bitter because it doesn't contain isomerised AA? My fat aunt Fanny


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## abyss (28/2/17)

All of my Aussie style goo brews, both lagers and ales are dry hopped. Usually with POR or Cluster or both as a base and I ad stuff like DR Rudi, Simcoe, Saaz, Ella, Tettnanger, Nelson Sauvin, Fuggles,EKG Galaxy etc but not always.
I can definitely taste the bitterness and love it.
The aroma and back of the throat bitterness is addictive to me.
When I used to steep my hops I found it too bitter and the beer seemed to have less head.
Put shit on me for dry hopping with POR if you wish but it is my go to dry hop.
Aussie Aussie Aussie POR POR POR.

Time for another Middy.

mmmmm......Yum.

Time for another....


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## Bribie G (28/2/17)

The OP was "does dry hopping add bitterness" and not "does dry hopping increase IBUs of the beer".

As pointed to Wikipedia early in the thread, good old Wiki states that IBU does not depend on perceived bitterness. Without knowing the background history of the IBU and EBU scales I'd guess they were introduced as a method for the brewing industry to get bang for the buck from their hop purchases and contracts, based on the AA of the hops as tested, and from this they can calculate the expected IBU of the finished beer. Apart from purchasing hops they also need to be able to consistenty control bitterness. That's fine - and essential - for the majority of the World's brands if you are talking about megalagers, Corona, Bud, VB etc and even German mainstreams where accurate hop calculations are essential.

I'd guess that until recently, dry hopping was rare outside some UK special or heritage brands, and US craft beers since the 70s.


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## brewdjoffe (1/3/17)

Bribie G said:


> The OP was "does dry hopping add bitterness" and not "does dry hopping increase IBUs of the beer".
> 
> As pointed to Wikipedia early in the thread, good old Wiki states that IBU does not depend on perceived bitterness. Without knowing the background history of the IBU and EBU scales I'd guess they were introduced as a method for the brewing industry to get bang for the buck from their hop purchases and contracts, based on the AA of the hops as tested, and from this they can calculate the expected IBU of the finished beer. Apart from purchasing hops they also need to be able to consistenty control bitterness. That's fine - and essential - for the majority of the World's brands if you are talking about megalagers, Corona, Bud, VB etc and even German mainstreams where accurate hop calculations are essential.
> 
> I'd guess that until recently, dry hopping was rare outside some UK special or heritage brands, and US craft beers since the 70s.





Droopy Brew said:


> To answer the second of the OPs questions. If you are chasing a smoother bitterness or even lower IBUs with a pronounced hop profile, try using a first wort hop for about 1/3 of your intended IBUS and the rest of the IBUs at whirlpool. Dont forget to use software that accounts for IBUs at whirlpool as some of them count it as 0 which is not the case.
> Also look for hops with a low cohumulone content (sub 35%). Higher cohumulone hops tend to add a harsh bitterness if used early in the boil eg Galaxy.
> 
> Using the above schedule (I usually chuck a few in at 10 minutes too) you should get plenty of flavour and aroma without the need to dry hop.


Thanks guys. Very helpful. 

Droopy Brew - in my mind, first wort hopping equates to more bitterness with not as much flavour. I'm planning on brewing a SMaSH APA this weekend with a batch of Citra I just got my hands on. 

Planned hop schedule is as follows: 

15g Citra 30 mins 
30g Citra 15 mins 
30g Citra 5 mins 
60g Citra Whilrpool 
60g Citra Dry hop at 10 days 

In my brewing software this equals 44 IBUs. I really want a juicy hop punch to shine through, which is why I thought my first hop addition should be at 30 minutes. The hop schedule at the end of the boil might be a bit over the top - I could probably bunch the 15 and 5 mins together. I might forego the dry hop this time as well just as an experiment. 

Any thoughts?


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## Droopy Brew (1/3/17)

It looks like you are doing what you have always done so I would expect the results to be the same.

It is a bit of a quirk but FWH actually contributes less IBUs than 60 minute additions. This is due to the extraction of other oils and reduced isomerisation of AAs at sub 80C temperatures. Do a search on FWH as there are some good discussions detailing the technical aspects that I wont go into here. Also, and I have found this to be true along with other brewers I have spoken with who use a similar schedule, the oils extracted at these temperatures tends to increase both the aroma and stability of aroma in the finished product. Aroma stability is an issue with dry hopping as it can dissipate quickly.

I find brewers friend is a good program as it accounts for the lower IBU contribution of FWH and IBU contribution from Whirlpool hops.

I would go with something like this, I have made assumptions on batch size, efficiency etc but lets say 23L for OG 1.050 using 4.8kg pale malt and 75% efficiency

12g Citra (13% aa) FWH - 11.4 IBUs
20g Citra (13% aa) 5min- 6.25 IBUs
80g Citra (13% aa) whirlpool- 18.1 IBUs (assuming 4% utilisation)

Total 35.75 IBUs and you should find those hops will shine.

The other thing is to look at your water. If you do add salts for you water profile, try for approx 100mg/L Ca and 200mg/L SO4, this will help showcase the hops a bit.
If not, dont worry about it, see how the new hopping schedule goes and if you are still having problems, look at adding some Gypsum and CaCl2 to adjust your water profile the next time round.


Edit: I just put your hop schedule into Brewers friend. If my assumptions about your batch size and OG are correct then you end up with 44IBUs from the 30 min, 15min and 5min addition alone. This tells me you software doesn't account for IBUs in the whirlpool. You would actually end up with 58 IBUs. Jump on Brewers Friend and see how you go.


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## damoninja (1/3/17)

MHB said:


> Absolutely not, dry hoping can't add any bitterness because Alpha Acids are practically insoluble in "cold" (say under 60oC) water/wort/beer and don't become soluble until isomerised by boiling (or at least being hot for a long time).


So If I add 90 kilos to a 20L batch I shouldn't expect it to be bitter

Got it


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## brewdjoffe (1/3/17)

Droopy Brew said:


> It looks like you are doing what you have always done so I would expect the results to be the same.
> 
> It is a bit of a quirk but FWH actually contributes less IBUs than 60 minute additions. This is due to the extraction of other oils and reduced isomerisation of AAs at sub 80C temperatures. Do a search on FWH as there are some good discussions detailing the technical aspects that I wont go into here. Also, and I have found this to be true along with other brewers I have spoken with who use a similar schedule, the oils extracted at these temperatures tends to increase both the aroma and stability of aroma in the finished product. Aroma stability is an issue with dry hopping as it can dissipate quickly.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the advice - absolutely great! 

I'll follow your lead and let you know how it goes. I was using the BrewLog app on my phone, which probably isn't the most accurate software so I'll jump on Brewers Friend. Thanks again!


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## Droopy Brew (1/3/17)

Please do. I look forward to hearing the outcome.


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## micka80 (1/3/17)

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/1762-hop-polyphenols-advanced-brewing

This article may help. I as well can vouch for the extra perceived bitterness from dry hopping.


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## Droopy Brew (1/3/17)

Great article. Thanks.


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## Mr B (1/3/17)

With the FWH, do you add a time?

A 60m addition is obvious, but in Beersmith a first wort hop has a time as well - is this the estimated total time from when the hops are added to the end of the boil?

Or does the advice that this addition contributes less IBU's mean that the bitterness essentially starts at a certain temperature?


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## Brewnicorn (1/3/17)

I have/had a possibly off topic question: but definitely related: the liquid hop shots available for some hop varietals, I'd read on the blog recently are useful as a top up at bottling time to ensure aroma expectations are met. What about the IBU, either perceptions or actually impacted on flavour. Any takers? Don't yell at me if I'm too far removed from the topic.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (1/3/17)

Mr B said:


> With the FWH, do you add a time?
> 
> A 60m addition is obvious, but in Beersmith a first wort hop has a time as well - is this the estimated total time from when the hops are added to the end of the boil?
> 
> Or does the advice that this addition contributes less IBU's mean that the bitterness essentially starts at a certain temperature?


For FWH the time is the boil time, eg I add my bittering hops as FWH and then calculate their contribution on the boil time (in may case usually 90 minutes).

For bitterness calculation the usual recommendation is to add about 10% for FWH as the utilisation increases due to the extra time at high temperature. I tried to make a more accurate estimator for my bitterness calculations but it depends on a 3 dimensional matrix of time / oP / temperature through the runoff and the data input is too onerous to be bothered with. 

In any case I am not alone in thinking that the calculation is moot: FWH gives a hop character which is less strident so while the measured IBU might be higher, in terms of overall balance it's a wash.


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## Bougie!st (6/3/17)

Just for my 2c

Just did a light pale ale, aiming to be kinda like the pacific ale, but with ella, galaxy and citra. Schedule as follows:

Grain - 3kg american ale malt, 1.5kg wheat malt, 0.1kg acidulated for pH

10g galaxy @10
10g citra @5
20g each of citra/ella/galaxy for whirlpool
est IBU (BS2) 28 (includes contribution from whirlpool)

Came out beautiful - so much so that the my wife was almost ready to start drinking beer. 

Then I dry hopped it with 20g each of citra/ella/galaxy. Now it tastes like I'm chewing on the hop pellets (which I do do just to taste them to understand them better). Very disappointed and hoping that time will improve things. The aroma is great, and it will be drinkable, but it is definitely not what I was shooting for. Agree that it is a short lasting bitterness, but there is definitely a change in what I'm tasting. I've not had such a change with any of my previous beers - maybe the light malt base has something to do with it as well.

Will fine it this time, with the hope it pulls some of the bitterness out (probs not but anyway), and naturally carbonate it in the keg, again hoping to scrub out some of the bitterness with the hopes the yeasties fix some of it up.

Thanks to all the contributors for the links and info above - helped me to understand what is going on. Props to you all!


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