# Daisy Chaining Kegs



## jayandcath (3/7/09)

Hello to All,

I have a strange question to ask all of yee...................

Has anyone or does anyone know if this would/does work??????????????
I was told that if you had 3 kegs (or more than one) of the same beer, you can daisy chain the kegs together so that you don't have to change out the empties as often. And if your not following, take 3 kegs of the same beer and take the beer out from the first to the gas in of the second and so on, until you have all kegs in a line.....the last keg's liquid out is connected up to the tap (as normal) and first keg's gas in is connected to the CO2 (as normal) and the middle connections go from out to in and out to in etc......

I also know that some of you are thinking that this is a very strange question (and yes Chappo I am thinking of you) but the reason behind the question is because a few mates and I get away every year for a camping weekend, and last year they drained the first two kegs in 45-60mins (yes both) and I had to stop being social and reload the temprites with fresh kegs to keep the mass's from rioting, so if I thought if I could daisy chain a few keg's together it would make the initial congestion period a little easier.
Now, when I first heard this scenario I brushed it off fairly quickly as a rediculus half baked idea that would never work, BUT then I started to think about it (and I might have had a couple of beers)...................and then after all the noise stopped I thought that it might work, because the entire system is pressurised.

Any feedback is much appreciated, he says waiting to be cut down by minds, far superior to his.

Jay :blink:


----------



## pokolbinguy (3/7/09)

Sounds like it would work. Maybe you would need to change the "gas" post with a "liquid" post on the kegs in the chain (except the first one that the gas goes onto). 

Interesting idea.

Pok


----------



## raven19 (3/7/09)

Interesting... I wouldve thought the beer coming from the first keg into the second one would lose some of its gas possibly as it drops from the short gas in tube to the beer level in the second keg, and so on...

Sounds like more trouble than its worth, plus running beer thru gas in lines means more cleaning afterwards.

Maybe make a really strong beer to knock them off their socks early, to save the hassle of chaning temprites, etc...


----------



## clean brewer (3/7/09)

Couldnt see why not, they are all pressurised and as long as gas is pushing through, beer should come out the other end.... :unsure:


----------



## Spartan 117 (3/7/09)

I reckon it would work but it might waste a lot of gas considering youre preasurising mutiple kegs for only one output. Interesting idea none the less. Give it a go and see if it works. 

Aaron


----------



## kenlock (3/7/09)

Throwing a thought out there. What if you split the gas lines eg. 3 and also split the beer lines into the same number of parts to join into one. ??



Edit: Grammar


----------



## QldKev (3/7/09)

It would work, but you would need to open the relief valve from the end keg (nearest the tap) to bleed beer into the entire headspace, working via kegs back towards the CO2 supply. This way as beer is transferred from one keg to the next it is flowing into beer and not dropping into the next keg. So you just need a simple chain of gas to beer posts joiners.

Only question? 2 kegs in 40 mins; thats roughly 1 carton of beer every 10mins?? How many people? They should be helping swap these kegs out, or have two/ more systems running at a time. and lets face it, it does not take that long to swap over a keg..

QldKev


----------



## Spartan 117 (3/7/09)

kenlock said:


> Throwing a thought out there. What if you split the gas lines eg. 3 and also split the beer lines into the same number of parts to join into one. ??
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Grammar




HMMMMM... would one line be able to hold the preassure of 3 or so kegs? If so then that'd work I reckon. 

Aaron


----------



## pokolbinguy (3/7/09)

Spartan 117 said:


> HMMMMM... would one line be able to hold the preassure of 3 or so kegs? If so then that'd work I reckon.
> 
> Aaron



Should be the same pressure no matter how many kegs are atached.


----------



## kenlock (3/7/09)

If you also had shut off valves you could set it for different beers later on or a black & tan.


----------



## bugwan (3/7/09)

jayandcath said:


> Hello to All,
> 
> I have a strange question to ask all of yee...................
> 
> ...



Hi Jay, this system definitely works - it's how busy pubs serve beer to save having to make a run to the cellar every time a keg blows. I used to work at a busy pub in Carlton (Melbs) and we ran banks of 4 kegs for each tap. As long as only up to three kegs were emptied per line, we could run down and throw on another three to fill up the bank and keep the beer flowing.
It was a commercial set up of course, but the principle applies at home too.

The gas goes in the normal IN post on the back keg and then you run from the OUT to the next keg's IN post. You'll just need the correct disconnects to fit the posts of course. The gas in the tail keg pushes all the way through the system.

Just make sure the beer is all from the same batch


----------



## Spartan 117 (3/7/09)

pokolbinguy said:


> Should be the same pressure no matter how many kegs are atached.



Nah it would be the sum of the three preassures(or close to there is an equation but i never paid attention to physical chemistry  ). Three joining flows into one area of lesser area will increase preassure always, its just like when two rivers meet the current generally increases. 

Aaron


----------



## mr_tyreman (3/7/09)

i cant even get my mates to drink my beer, let alone drink 2 kegs in 45 minutes...... any way you go im sure they will be happy 

Edit: Spartan.....i love your quote


----------



## pokolbinguy (3/7/09)

Spartan 117 said:


> Nah it would be the sum of the three preassures(or close to there is an equation but i never paid attention to physical chemistry  ). Three joining flows into one area of lesser area will increase preassure always, its just like when two rivers meet the current generally increases.
> 
> Aaron



But if they are "daisy chained" then there is only one supply of gas and the 3 kegs are at the same pressure....so over all the pressure coming out the end should be same if there was 1 or 10 kegs in the chain??? I'm pretty sure this would be right. The gas would "equalise" over the kegs in the chain and just push the beer from keg 1 to 2 to 3 to......until it reaches the end keg and then the tap.

If however all three kegs had seperated gas supplies and the out lines were junctioned together then there would be an increase I would think.

Anyway if you want to try it fill the kegs with water and hook them up...see what happens. Easy way to test.

Pok


----------



## Zwickel (3/7/09)

surely it will work.

Thats a common method at beer festivals over here. Thats no problem at all. Just connect the beer post of the last keg to the gas post of the keg before it.

have fun :icon_cheers:


----------



## jayandcath (3/7/09)

Zwickel said:


> surely it will work.
> 
> Thats a common method at beer festivals over here. Thats no problem at all. Just connect the beer post of the last keg to the gas post of the keg before it.
> 
> have fun :icon_cheers:



Thanks Zwickel, I was going to shoot you a PM about this for fear of crazy answers. But I am stoaked to see your reply and thanks mate I appreciate your comments.
How's the Red Brewery advertising going in Germany  

Thanks mate

Jay


----------



## Spartan 117 (3/7/09)

pokolbinguy said:


> But if they are "daisy chained" then there is only one supply of gas and the 3 kegs are at the same pressure....so over all the pressure coming out the end should be same if there was 1 or 10 kegs in the chain??? I'm pretty sure this would be right.





Yes this is right. However if you refer to the post I was replying to you will find that kenlock was talking about having gass split into three then joining the three outputs into one, not daisychaining. 


Aaron


----------



## Spartan 117 (3/7/09)

Zwickel said:


> surely it will work.



Famous last words :icon_cheers: 

Aaron


----------



## Zwickel (3/7/09)

jayandcath said:


> How's the Red Brewery advertising going in Germany



Jay, thanks again for your kind prezzie, have a look:







:icon_chickcheers:


----------



## /// (3/7/09)

Do it all the time at work, no matter the fittings or the keg, principle is the same. All you need is the one gas source on the end keg. 

Scotty


----------



## Zwickel (3/7/09)

Jay, I cannot resist, sorry mate....





:lol:  :wub:


----------



## kenlock (3/7/09)

I didn't know Zwickel was David Boon! ???


----------



## jayandcath (3/7/09)

kenlock said:


> I didn't know Zwickel was David Boon! ???



One and the same, Twins separated at birth.

Jay


----------



## Spartan 117 (3/7/09)

kenlock said:


> I didn't know Zwickel was David Boon! ???




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

Aaron


----------



## frogman (3/7/09)

Banking dose work with home brew kegs I know because I have done it. 

Cheers Damien.


----------



## Zwickel (3/7/09)

yes, thats my brother, for some reason hed to change hes name when he emigrated to Tasmania  


sorry Jay, I didnt want to hijack your thread, but I think all questions are answered. 

Cheers :icon_cheers:


----------



## Offline (3/7/09)

A friend of mine told me the club he used to work at here uses this method of dispensing kegs, he called it piggie backing. He also told me that if they had a slow selling beer they would stick it on the end of a line (not of the same brand) and allow it to mix with the higher turnover beer. :icon_vomit: 



:icon_offtopic: 



Spartan 117 said:


> Nah it would be the sum of the three preassures(or close to there is an equation but i never paid attention to physical chemistry  ). Three joining flows into one area of lesser area will increase preassure always, its just like when two rivers meet the current generally increases.
> 
> Aaron



This statement is not even close to being correct. Flow and pressure are different (but related) things, first of all flow will only occur if there is a pressure differential and the direction of flow will be from high to low pressure. Now if your analogy was correct then there would be 3 times greater the pressure in the beer line than in the kegs. That would mean beer would flow in to the kegs not out of them? Even if the kegs were set up in the way you read the OP the maximum pressure in the system would be that supplied by the regulator and this would only be when the beer tap is shut, ie no flow.

you would have 3 times the flow not pressure


----------



## Spartan 117 (3/7/09)

Offline said:


> A friend of mine told me the club he used to work at here uses this method of dispensing kegs, he called it piggie backing. He also told me that if they had a slow selling beer they would stick it on the end of a line (not of the same brand) and allow it to mix with the higher turnover beer. :icon_vomit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Firstly I think it's close to being correct, and if you want to produce some math or other evidence that implies the contrary then be my guest and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong. 

1) "Flow and pressure are different (but related) things, first of all flow will only occur if there is a pressure differential and the direction of flow will be from high to low pressure. Now if your analogy was correct then there would be 3 times greater the pressure in the beer line than in the kegs. That would mean beer would flow in to the kegs not out of them?" 

Ok this statement I think you got confused with... I'm not sure just my opinion. What i was saying is that when the 3 or however many lines come together they will all have there own independent pressure with respect to the volume the fluid occupies, when you have an initial pressure joining another independent pressure unless the volume of area with which they enter is proportional to the volume of the area they left there will be a pressure increase 

This is in accordance with Boyle's Law where P1V1=P2V2 (P and V are Pressure and Volume)

2)"That would mean beer would flow in to the kegs not out of them?"

NO!!! It does not mean that. A kegging system is one of isolation (known as an isobaric system) where if there is no volume change pressure is constant (and as a result so are other factors that contribute to the thermodynamic stability of a system such as work and internal energy) however when the volume changes, such as adding a line for the beer to come out of you immediately incorporate a new amount volume which is at atmospheric pressure, the fluid of the system (beer) will rush to fill this area to obtain a state of equilibrium and if the line and its connections aren't strong enough to hold that pressure the lines may break as you must do work if there is a volume change in a isobaric system.

Consistent with teh 1st law of thermodynamics dU= dq-dw (states that a change in wrok(w) will results in a change in internal energy (dU). dq is the heat added or removed from a system)



Cheers 

Aaron


----------



## Zwickel (3/7/09)

no matter how many kegs youre connecting together, could be endless, the resulting pressure will be the arithmetic middlepressure of all.
That means, the pressure will equalizes to the middle value.

For example, if you connect two kegs, one at 100 KPa and the other one at 1.2 KPa, the resulting pressure will be 1.1 KPa.....as long as the kegs are of the same volumes.

Cheers


----------



## Spartan 117 (3/7/09)

Zwickel said:


> no matter how many kegs youre connecting together, could be endless, the resulting pressure will be the arithmetic middlepressure of all.
> That means, the pressure will equalizes to the middle value.
> 
> For example, if you connect two kegs, one at 100 KPa and the other one at 1.2 KPa, the resulting pressure will be 1.1 KPa.....as long as the kegs are of the same volums.
> ...



This would be true if refrenced to "daisy chaining" of kegs however we're talking about convergence of systems not one giant system and the value wouldn't be 1.1kpa more like the mean of the 2 which is 55.1kpa. 

cheers

Aaron 

Aaron


----------



## Zwickel (3/7/09)

Aaron, it doesnt matter if you are daisy chaining the kegs or just connect altogether to a manifold, youll always get the arithmetic middlepressure.



> This would be true if refrenced to "daisy chaining" of kegs however we're talking about convergence of systems not one giant system and the value wouldn't be 1.1kpa more like the mean of the 2 which is 55.1kpa.



sorry mate, thats simply wrong

Cheers :icon_cheers:


----------



## Offline (4/7/09)

Spartan 117 said:


> Firstly I think it's close to being correct, and if you want to produce some math or other evidence that implies the contrary then be my guest and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.
> 
> 1) "Flow and pressure are different (but related) things, first of all flow will only occur if there is a pressure differential and the direction of flow will be from high to low pressure. Now if your analogy was correct then there would be 3 times greater the pressure in the beer line than in the kegs. That would mean beer would flow in to the kegs not out of them?"
> 
> ...



Boyles law is for an ideal gas, not an incompressible liquid (beer) so first of all it is completely irrelevant. But even if you wanted to consider beer as an ideal gas you would find that Boyles law will tell you that your pressure will drop (to atmospheric pressure actually) because volume one is the keg and volume two would be well the atmosphere. But because beer is, for all intents and purposes, an incompressible liquid there is no volume change, it just moves.



> 2)"That would mean beer would flow in to the kegs not out of them?"
> 
> NO!!! It does not mean that. A kegging system is one of isolation (known as an isobaric system) where if there is no volume change pressure is constant (and as a result so are other factors that contribute to the thermodynamic stability of a system such as work and internal energy) however when the volume changes, such as adding a line for the beer to come out of you immediately incorporate a new amount volume which is at atmospheric pressure, the fluid of the system (beer) will rush to fill this area to obtain a state of equilibrium and if the line and its connections aren't strong enough to hold that pressure the lines may break as you must do work if there is a volume change in a isobaric system.
> 
> ...



When the tap is open you have atmospheric pressure at the tap and your keg pressure in the keg and some sort of gradient between the two whose profile is dependent on the size and type of restriction between the two. But at no point will the pressure be higher then in the keg, which is what you initially stated. So if the beer line can handle the closed tap pressure it will be fine. Im assuming that he will be using the same pressure, beer tap and line as his current system. I know this is off topic as we are not talking about the same set up as the OP but the pressure will be virtually the same no mater which way you set it up is my point.


----------



## Bribie G (4/7/09)

It was the default back in the seventies when there were only two beers on tap in Qld, XXXX and Carlton so they could chain up a few days supply in one hit. Rumour had it that at least one of the kegs would contain cold water. Urban myth ? :huh:


----------



## Zwickel (4/7/09)

Zwickel said:


> For example, if you connect two kegs, one at 100 KPa and the other one at 1.2 KPa, the resulting pressure will be 1.1 KPa.....as long as the kegs are of the same volumes.



oh man....I have to apologize, I confused KPa with bar, it should be one at 100KPa and the other one at 120KPa, resulting 110KPa middlepressure


----------



## Pollux (4/7/09)

This is how most pubs run their house beers.
I have seen 14 kegs daisied up before, it's quite a site.


----------



## LethalCorpse (4/7/09)

Back in the box spartan, you're talking rubbish. 

If the tap is shut, there's no flow. Since there's no flow there must be no pressure differential. The pressure throughout the entire system is the same as it is at the regulator. Whether you've got three kegs hooked up in parallel or in series, this is the case. The only variation in pressure is with depth - the bottom of the keg will be at a higher pressure than the top of the keg. And that's true at all points in the system, if you take a bit of the beer line and raise and lower it, the pressure in the bit of line that you're holding will always be at the same pressure as the beer in the keg at that same height. 

When you open the tap, the restriction of the plumbing comes into play. With the kegs in parallel, the flow rate will be higher - three short thin pipes joined at either end is the same as one short fat pipe. When they're in series, it will be lower, because three short thin pipes joined end to end is the same as one long thin pipe.


----------



## LethalCorpse (4/7/09)

kenlock said:


> I didn't know Zwickel was David Boon! ???


Makes a lot of sense when you think about it, though, doesn't it?


----------



## /// (4/7/09)

Only the AHB could take a question to such lengths of answer ....


----------

