# Pbw`



## Paul H (26/9/08)

Guys,
Used PBW on my kettle that hadn't been cleaned of beerstone in over 5 years. Simply added 2 tablespoons to about 10L of hot water left for approx 2 hours cam back & wiped off, this stuff is amazing. Looking to use it for CIP when I set up my system on a stand.

I had put off & put off cleaning the kettle as I wasn't looking forward to having to scrub but now I'm sold.

Cheers

Paul


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## razz (26/9/08)

Where did you get the PBW from Paul ?


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## newguy (26/9/08)

PBW is the cat's ass for cleaning kegs too. Mine eventually (over maybe 5-6 fillings) develop a white deposit that looks like hard water calcium deposits. Maybe that's what it actually is - who knows? Anyway, a bit of PBW in some warm water, slosh & dump and it's gone. Same goes for glass carboys. If they ever get a layer of crud that you can't brush off, PBW will take it off.


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## Paul H (26/9/08)

razz said:


> Where did you get the PBW from Paul ?



Craftbrewer.

Cheers

Paul


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## Peter Wadey (26/9/08)

Paul,
I looked before & could not find it.
Just did another search & still can't find it.

?

Guess I'll have to stick with warm caustic then ........

Wadey


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## Frank (26/9/08)

Peter Wadey said:


> Paul,
> I looked before & could not find it.
> Just did another search & still can't find it.
> 
> ...


I think the story is, walk in, pick up only, at this stage. Ross was trying to see if he was able to post it.
Something about Posties not keen on white powder substance giving off odours in their trucks.


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## yardy (26/9/08)

bloody timely thread !

just done and dusted the APA brewday, got all the gear soaking and remembered the PBW that Ross had sent and thought i better give the Kettle a clean but decided I'd do a search here first.

cheers paul  

Yard


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## Jye (26/9/08)

Great stuff, there is a pic of my kettle here.

Ive had a go at a few CIP sprinkler so I only need about 5L and just recirculate it for an hour. However my pumps flow rate is not quite high enough to get a good spray and trying to find a sprinkler that wont clog with soil is the other challenge.


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## monkale (26/9/08)

For the mentally challanged eg-me what the hell is PBW? :huh: 

Cheers Monkale


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## Screwtop (26/9/08)

monkale said:


> For the mentally challanged eg-me what the hell is PBW? :huh:
> 
> Cheers Monkale




Powdered Brew Wash - Dummy :lol:

Edit: errr ahhh I think


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## monkale (26/9/08)

Thanks Screwie I knew I could count on you Im a dumb ass .Its just one big learning curve on here 

Cheers from up the hill


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## Screwtop (26/9/08)

monkale said:


> Thanks Screwie I knew I could count on you Im a dumb ass .Its just one big learning curve on here
> 
> Cheers from up the hill




On ya mate, only knew cos I asked the same question about 2 months ago :blink:


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## onescooter (26/9/08)

link here, http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/index.asp
from the makers of 5.2 ph stabilizer.


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## Andyd (28/9/08)

I've been waiting for this stuff to hit our shores for ages so I could move away from hot caustic!

And we've got jon Herskovits from Five Star coming down to ANHC next month to talk about cleaning processes and chemicals, so look out for that one !

Andy


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## lonte (2/10/08)

I just had my PBW Epiphany!

Ran it through pump & chiller for 30-ish minutes @ 130F - frightenting what came out of the chiller! Then ramped it up to 160F and into my kettle with hopstopper in it. Hopstopper I previously thought was rusty is in fact made of SS!! Tide mark on kettle where PBW finished. Now have shiploads of plastic bit soaking in it.

This stuff is the best cleaner I have ever used.

On on, L.


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## yardy (12/11/08)

just checking, got my 2 of my kegs soaking now, is it ok for all the fermenter taps, hoses etc ?

mix is 250gm to 50lt

cheers


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## AndrewQLD (12/11/08)

yardy said:


> just checking, got my 2 of my kegs soaking now, is it ok for all the fermenter taps, hoses etc ?
> 
> mix is 250gm to 50lt
> 
> cheers



I give all my equipement a soak in it Dave. Great product.

Andrew


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## therook (12/11/08)

AndrewQLD said:


> I give all my equipement a soak in it Dave. Great product.
> 
> Andrew




Can your store this stuff once it is made up?

Rook


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## AndrewQLD (12/11/08)

therook said:


> Can your store this stuff once it is made up?
> 
> Rook



Not sure about that Rook, although if you emailed 5 star chemicals I'm sure you'd get a quick answer.
I think most would make this up as required.

Andrew


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## Fatgodzilla (12/11/08)

therook said:


> Can your store this stuff once it is made up?
> 
> Rook



A few sample boxes were handed out at ANHC. A booklet in the box says you can transfer the solution from one soaking into another unit into another, but doesn't mention any lag time or life time of the solution. Suggest you may need to go to the website. If that's not readily available, email John Herskovits at Five Star - he really sounded like a good bloke for a yankee snake oil saleman at ANHC and said to email him if we had any problems.

I'm about to soak my keggle over night and see just how good this stuff is !


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## yardy (12/11/08)

AndrewQLD said:


> I give all my equipement a soak in it Dave. Great product.
> 
> Andrew




Cheers mate :icon_cheers:


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## Batz (12/11/08)

OK OK I'll try the stuff,my kettles a mess,but I sort of like it that way,bit like my old billy.

Show us your scroungy kettle thread?

Batz


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## Tony (12/11/08)

It wont be as good as my "show us your airlock grommet" thread.

That one went like a rocket.

ITs good stuff Batz. I too wasnt worried about the brown layer on everything but i was amazed at how much better the kettle smelt after a soak. The SS was shiny and it didnt have that dank earthy smell about it

cheers


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## yardy (12/11/08)

i should've taken a _before_ pic as well but anyhoo...

no beer-stone here :icon_chickcheers:


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## Tony (12/11/08)

Shit Yardy, do you want me to send you the install for some image resizing software?

looks shiny like mine 

cheers


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## yardy (12/11/08)

if you like, bit big is it ?


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## Jye (12/11/08)

Batz said:


> OK OK I'll try the stuff,my kettles a mess,but I sort of like it that way,bit like my old billy.
> 
> Show us your scroungy kettle thread?
> 
> Batz



Check this out Batz LINK Not exactly a before and after but you get the idea.


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## taylor-madeak (12/11/08)

PBW is a percarbonate cleaner that's been kicked up with some sodium metasilicate. I don't know if you guys can get it down under, but here stateside there is a product available in most stores called "Oxyclean" along with its generic variants. Add an equal amount of "phosphate-free" TSP substitute (aka sodium metasilicate) and you've just made yourself some PBW for something like half the price that your LHBS wants for the real thing.

This stuff is at its most effective when hot, by the way. To clean my keggle at the end of my brewing season, I add a couple scoops of my homemade PBW and fill the vessel with about 12 gallons of cold water. Then I put the burner to it until it starts to steam, after which I kill the heat and wait 30 minutes. At the end of that time I just open the valve and drain the keggle, cleaning out my valve and hose barb at the same time. Follow that with a thorough rinsing and my keggle is ready to be stored for another winter. B)


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## Tony (12/11/08)

:lol: Stored for the winter........ i love it.

I brew like mad during the winter when its cool enough in my garage to ferment without a fridge.

cheers


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## ausdb (12/11/08)

Taylor-MadeAK said:


> PBW is a percarbonate cleaner that's been kicked up with some sodium metasilicate. I don't know if you guys can get it down under, but here stateside there is a product available in most stores called "Oxyclean" along with its generic variants. Add an equal amount of "phosphate-free" TSP substitute (aka sodium metasilicate) and you've just made yourself some PBW for something like half the price that your LHBS wants for the real thing.


Excellent advice, looks like our brewclub might be doing a bulkbuy of sodium metasilicate soon


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## goatherder (12/11/08)

The guy from 5 star at ANHC mentioned that PBW had about 5 ingredients, one of which was sodium percarbonate. He also mentioned a surfactant and a chelation agent as being two of them. Perhaps sodium metasilicate is one of the others, but it may not be the only one.


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## schooey (12/11/08)

goatherder said:


> The guy from 5 star at ANHC mentioned that PBW had about 5 ingredients, one of which was sodium percarbonate. He also mentioned a surfactant and a chelation agent as being two of them. Perhaps sodium metasilicate is one of the others, but it may not be the only one.



It wouldn't be like a retailer to tell you that it's impossible to mimic his product now either, would it?  I don't see the use of a surfactant in this product as such a great or important property of it? But maybe there's an industrial chemist or the guy from 5 star can explain why? From my (admittedly limited) knowledge, surfactants are compounds that make up either a foaming agent, an emulsifier or a dispersant. I can't see how a foaming agent is of any use in sanitizing a brewery, or for that matter an emulsifier. So unless the surfactant in PBW is a dispersant that is the secret in removing the demon brown beerstone and carrying it away suspended in the mix, I'd be interested to find out it's main purpose


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## dr K (12/11/08)

My understanding of Star San PBW is that it is a washing agent for a brewery (DOH).
I have used it , it works OK, you do need hot water and you do need to scrub (or if you have soaked wipe). So its mainly nappi-san...plus a bit, buts those little bits (including surfactants) make it a an easy to use, reliable and not that expensive (if you do a bulk clean of all your gear with the one bag full).
I am impressed and for the relatively small cost could not be bothered with "brewing my own".

K


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## Batz (12/11/08)

It's here

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/products.asp?id=2

But if you want to know exactly wants in it just ask,it's the law they have to tell you.

Batz


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## goatherder (12/11/08)

schooey said:


> It wouldn't be like a retailer to tell you that it's impossible to mimic his product now either, would it?  I don't see the use of a surfactant in this product as such a great or important property of it? But maybe there's an industrial chemist or the guy from 5 star can explain why? From my (admittedly limited) knowledge, surfactants are compounds that make up either a foaming agent, an emulsifier or a dispersant. I can't see how a foaming agent is of any use in sanitizing a brewery, or for that matter an emulsifier. So unless the surfactant in PBW is a dispersant that is the secret in removing the demon brown beerstone and carrying it away suspended in the mix, I'd be interested to find out it's main purpose



Fair call schooey. He seemed quite genuine on the day. I asked him how plain percarbonate compared to something like PBW. He said that percarbonate works just fine, but PBW has a few features that improve on it. Namely, the surfactant which lowers the surface tension of the solution to allow it to penetrate very small imperfections in the surface of the vessel, chelation agent to deal with scale forming minerals and some other additives which raise the pH giving better performance against organics. We discussed a bit about how plain percarbonate doesn't dissolve well in cold water, apparently PBW is better at this. He said you will get good results from just percarbonate but it may take longer to work as well or you may need higher concentrations.


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## schooey (12/11/08)

Batz said:


> It's here
> 
> http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/products.asp?id=2
> 
> ...



It's not quite that easy... They have to list hazardous materials etc in their MSDS, but they don't have to tell you exactly what, and in what concentration. The great big yank oil company I work for wouldn't be too happy if they had to part with the proprietary formulations of some of the differential products in the market


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## Tony (12/11/08)

Hey.......... just mix some Bi-Lo oil with a bit of E10 to get Mobil 1 dont we?

thats what i do 

for the small price and the 2 or 3 times a year i will use it....... bugger mixing my own and hoping its right.

This stuff did such an impessive job, im going to do my other kettle soon and chuck in all my bake ware as well!

Its like oven cleaner but not as nasty or smelly.

Awsome

cheers


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## taylor-madeak (13/11/08)

"Tony" said:


> Stored for the winter........ i love it.
> 
> I brew like mad during the winter when its cool enough in my garage to ferment without a fridge.


Unfortunately, I don't have a garage. I also have to boil outside because I'm an AG brewer, which makes a wort chiller necessary. That's where Alaska winters *really* hit me: my garden hoses are frozen! Sooo, I restrict my beer brewing to summer and in the winter I make sake. Sake keeps me indoors. :lol:



"goatherder" said:


> The guy from 5 star at ANHC mentioned that PBW had about 5 ingredients, one of which was sodium percarbonate. He also mentioned a surfactant and a chelation agent as being two of them. Perhaps sodium metasilicate is one of the others, but it may not be the only one.


Judging on the way it foams, OxyClean contains surfactants of its own, along with perfumes, chlorine, etc. You can get "OxyClean FREE" which doesn't contain perfumes or chlorine, but it still has the percarbonate and surfactants that make the product useful.

The "chelation agent" is sodium metasilicate. It also significantly raises the pH when dissolved in water.



"dr K" said:


> I am impressed and for the relatively small cost could not be bothered with "brewing my own".


*shrug* Nobody says you have to. I just mentioned it because my wife always has a big box of OxyClean around that she uses as a laundry detergent adjunct in place of bleach. So it's actually cheaper for me to just pop down to the hardware store and pick up some sodium metasilicate and mix up my own PBW than to pay what my LHBS wants for Five Star's product.

By the way, this stuff is the best thing you can ever use to remove beer labels from bottles. A 20 minute soak in hot PBW and most labels peel right off. Any residual glue will wipe right off with a sponge or even just your thumb.


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## Fatgodzilla (13/11/08)

> He said you will get good results from just percarbonate but it may take longer to work as well or you may need higher concentrations


.

GH - gathererd same sorts of impressions from John too. This thread, plus a little bit of extra reading, tells me after the free samples are gone that sodium percarbonate (and bleach and vinegar) will remain my standard cleaner as I know it works and is relatively cheap. I'll buy in PBW as a special cleaning tool - as per our Alaskan friend, when I want to put the brewing equipment away for a few months or for annual "deep cleaning" of my kegs. Beauty of life is no one is forcing anyone to use something they don't want. Its great to have another option !


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## domonsura (13/11/08)

Sodium Percarb will remain my standard cleaner - removes beerstone fine when used hot, cleans everything completely to my satisfaction - and _doesn't have sodium met in it....._...

PBW works fine, there's no question there, I've used both and had pretty much the same results from both for all intensive purposes but when I had a look at the info for the ingredients (SODIUM METASILICATE specifically the "Main Risks & Target Organs" bit, I was no longer interested in using it.

Personally I prefer the comparitively more friendly Sodium Percarbonate (in my personal opinion)


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## kirem (13/11/08)

domonsura said:


> Sodium Percarb will remain my standard cleaner - removes beerstone fine when used hot, cleans everything completely to my satisfaction - and _doesn't have sodium met in it....._...



Why do you not like sodium met?


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## taylor-madeak (13/11/08)

> 2.1 Main risks and target organs
> 
> Sodium metasilicate is strongly irritating to the skin,
> eyes and respiratory tract. Acute exposures involving the
> ...


ROFL! The same - and worse! - can be said for any number of common household and brewery substances. Grain dust, caustic soda, bleach, large volumes of boiling liquids....

Percarbonate does work just fine without the water glass additive, though. Might take a little longer, but it's still a good detergent.


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## Ross (13/11/08)

domonsura said:


> Sodium Percarb will remain my standard cleaner - removes beerstone fine when used hot,




You must have a different type of SP down in SA, as I've never been able to shift beerstone with it up here, however concentrated & hot the water.....
Also, once you see the extra crud that PBW removes from your equipment like plate chillers for instance, there's little comparison.

......& yes, totally affiliated as I distribute it in Aus B) 

Cheers 
Ross/CraftBrewer


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## Batz (13/11/08)

Ross said:


> You must have a different type of SP down in SA, as I've never been able to shift beerstone with it up here, however concentrated & hot the water.....
> Also, once you see the extra crud that PBW removes from your equipment like plate chillers for instance, there's little comparison.
> 
> ......& yes, totally affiliated as I distribute it in Aus B)
> ...



Ross
Is it safe for aluminum eg kettles?


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## reviled (13/11/08)

Ross said:


> ......& yes, totally affiliated as I distribute it in Aus B)



:lol: Gold!

Hey Ross, is it ok for this product to be posted to NZ?


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## Ross (13/11/08)

Batz said:


> Ross
> Is it safe for aluminum eg kettles?




Yes Batz....


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## Ross (13/11/08)

reviled said:


> :lol: Gold!
> 
> Hey Ross, is it ok for this product to be posted to NZ?




Yes Reviled....


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## Jye (13/11/08)

Ross, is it ok to use on a rash?


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## Batz (13/11/08)

Jye said:


> Ross, is it ok to use on a rash?




Worried about a night at the swap Jye ?

Batz


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## goatherder (13/11/08)

Ross said:


> Yes Batz....



A qualified Yes on aluminium - on the latest Brew Strong podcast which goes into great detail on PBW and Starsan, Jon Herskovits recommended no longer than 24 hours contact time for aluminium. Being a soft metal he wasn't confident it would hold up to long term exposure like stainless would. 24 hours is still way long enough to get ali clean however - just don't fill it and forget about it.


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## domonsura (13/11/08)

Just for the record - I didn't say that there was anything _wrong_ with PBW, It does do a good job of cleaning......I'm just not a fan of the sodium met in it, that's all  or more to the point, my skin isn't a fan of it - I get a little bit of dermatitis and anything with sodium met in it makes my hands itch like a so & so ....


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## goatherder (13/11/08)

Dom, are you confusing the sodium metasilicate which is reportedly in PBW with sodium metabisulphate? Different beasts, sodium metabisulphate certainly has some negative effects on the human organism. Not so sure about sodium metasilicate but PBW claims to be very safe to handle.


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## Stuster (13/11/08)

So you think a hot napisan soak for an hour or so should be fine on an aluminium kettle, Goatherder?


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## goatherder (13/11/08)

I expect so Stu - I don't know for sure but I assume the high alkalinity of PBW would be the reason for the caution with ali. I don't think napisan is as alkaline but I'm just guessing this. I assume plenty of brewers have done this before and there doesn't seem to be any widespread complaints of it attacking the aluminium. Sorry for the vagueness...


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## Fatgodzilla (26/11/08)

therook said:


> Can your store this stuff once it is made up?
> 
> Rook




Emailed 5 Star asking about the time effectiveness of PBW. The filtering concerned using a hopsock when re using from a dirty fermenter/keg and straining through coffee filter paper to have a finer filter. This is John's response & I thank him for his answer. 






> The "Active" time for PBW is 24 hours. After this time all of the usable Oxygen is gone. There will still be alkalinity and other cleaning agents, but the most effective aspect is used up. You can reuse this solution after this time frame, but it will take longer to work. Once it gets soiled with gross amounts, I would start over with a fresh batch. Using a coffee filter is a bit far for me. By filtering the large crud out of the solution, (reference to the hop sock) you should be able to keep using it. However, this solution will take longer to work, and eventually it will not work. The more organic material the solution sees, the more alkalinity will get used up.
> 
> I hope this helps. If I need to go more in depth I can.
> 
> ...


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## mikem108 (26/11/08)

BTW, after being a Hydroxide user, I've switched to PBW and I love it best stuff ever, listen to the Jamil/Palmer podcast on cleaning to get the sccoop


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