# Non kit yeast.



## CJay (17/7/22)

Hi all.

I am brewing with extract kits and have had some good and poor results. I have heard it mentioned that the kit yeast can be hit or miss depending on age and storage conditions of the tins etc. Can anyone tell me what amount of yeast from a packet (non kit pack but bought from a homebrew store) should be used with a 23l kit extract. I bought some American Ale yeast but its in a 15g pack as opposed to the smaller ones that come with the kit tins. I got the Morgans American Ale as I heard it was a good all round yeast?

Thanks CJ.


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## MHB (18/7/22)

Use the whole packet in a "standard" 23L brew.
That will still put you at the lower end of the optimum pitching range.
The maker of US-05 recommends 50-80g/100L, so in a 23L brew 11.5-18.4g so 15g is in the range.
I'm pretty sure the Yeast is US-05, here is a bit more information on it.
Mark


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## CJay (18/7/22)

MHB said:


> Use the whole packet in a "standard" 23L brew.
> That will still put you at the lower end of the optimum pitching range.
> The maker of US-05 recommends 50-80g/100L, so in a 23L brew 11.5-18.4g so 15g is in the range.
> I'm pretty sure the Yeast is US-05, here is a bit more information on it.
> ...


Thanks for the info. The yeast with the kit tins must be well under pitched then im guessing. Im sure they were 5 or 7g. I will add the entire pack of 15g as stated. Thanks again for the help.


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## Nick the Knife (19/7/22)

Learn to safely rehydrate rather than just dumping dry right on top of the cooled wort - as that kills a lot of cells right away, so a rehydrate is essentially the same as basically a 1.5-2x of the packet size (based on studies of this I've read).


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## JDW81 (20/7/22)

Hey CJay,

Yeast calculation (as with many things in brewing) is a bit of a science. There's a few calculators you can use, but if you're in the early stages of brewing I'd suggest not over complicating things and don't worry about calculating exact pitching ratios. This is something you can do later.

As a general rule the kit yeast is a bit hit and miss. The amount of alive yeast is pretty variable, and the conditions it has been kept under is often very dubious.

The best option for reliable yeast results is to use a nice fresh brewing strain from your local HB store. US-05 is a great option, as is Nottingham. Fermenting in lower end of the suggested temp range is ideal (i.e. 18-19C)

Pitching too little yeast results in stressed yeast, poor fermentation, lower attenuation and can give some undesired flavours. Within reason it is much safer to over pitch than to under pitch. 2 sachets is probably a slight over pitch for a 23L batch, but you're unlikely to run into any dramas with 2 sachets (bearing in mind that not all the yeast in each sachet will still be alive).

Good quality, healthy yeast is one of the most important aspects of brewing (along with sanitisation and temperature control) and getting the basics right will make a massive difference to your beers.

JD


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## Nick the Knife (20/7/22)

JDW81 said:


> 2 sachets is probably a slight over pitch for a 23L batch, but you're unlikely to run into any dramas with 2 sachets (bearing in mind that not all the yeast in each sachet will still be alive).


@JDW81 
Your overall reply was excellent and I can't add to it or pretend to. I assume you're implying not to rehydrate these 2 packets of yeast?

Based on what i've read 2 packets dry pitched is about the same as 1 packet rehydrated (in terms of effective viable cell count - as so many are killed by the dry pitch into the wort) - is it just simplicity and less effort needed that sees the extra packet route advocated & done by more folks? Seems very few actually rehydrate, which is odd IMHO given every yeast company recommends it but then also says essentially you don't have to if you prefer. I'm guessing you're not a rehydrator?


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## terminal2k (20/7/22)

Nick the Knife said:


> Based on what i've read 2 packets dry pitched is about the same as 1 packet rehydrated (in terms of effective viable cell count - as so many are killed by the dry pitch into the wort)


I think yeast processing has improved a lot over the years, the manufacturers of US-05 state this in their FAQ section:

_There is the potential for a slight loss in viability (approximately 3-6%) but that will not impact the fermentation at all._

I've personally read more stuff online saying rehydration isn't required for most yeasts in most conditions.


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## JDW81 (21/7/22)

Nick the Knife said:


> @JDW81
> Your overall reply was excellent and I can't add to it or pretend to. I assume you're implying not to rehydrate these 2 packets of yeast?
> 
> Based on what i've read 2 packets dry pitched is about the same as 1 packet rehydrated (in terms of effective viable cell count - as so many are killed by the dry pitch into the wort) - is it just simplicity and less effort needed that sees the extra packet route advocated & done by more folks? Seems very few actually rehydrate, which is odd IMHO given every yeast company recommends it but then also says essentially you don't have to if you prefer. I'm guessing you're not a rehydrator?


Hey Nick,

I follow the manufacturers instructions. If they recommend rehydration I do it, if they don’t then I just chuck it in commando. I tend to rely on what the people who make it suggest, as it is their product, and they would know best how to treat their yeast. They have people much smarter than me involved in the entire process, and their recommendations are most likely based on their experiments and testing (Particularly with the big reputable guys I.e. fermentis)

With US05 I rehydrate, but I tend to do a rough calculation on how much yeast I need and base the number of packets on this. If my calculations come out at 1.5 packs then I just chuck 2 in. Again, it is better to slightly over pitch than under in my experience. This is based on both gravity and volume.

There’s a good brew strong podcast on rehydrating yeast which explains the rationale for it (mostly due to the inability yeast cells to control what crosses their cell when they are in the dehydrated phase).

JD


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## JDW81 (21/7/22)

terminal2k said:


> I've personally read more stuff online saying rehydration isn't required for most yeasts in most conditions.


I’ve read similar things, but there’s lots of dubious information online based more on opinion than science (so please take everything I say with a grain of salt ).

Like I mentioned above, if the manufacturer recommends to rehydrate I do (and most in my experience do). It’s a simple step, and if done properly there is a very negligible risk of infection.

TBH I mostly use liquid yeast and make a starter, but that is clearly not related to the OP so will leave that for CJay et al to investigate at another time.


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## Nick the Knife (22/7/22)

terminal2k said:


> I think yeast processing has improved a lot over the years, the manufacturers of US-05 state this in their FAQ section:
> 
> _There is the potential for a slight loss in viability (approximately 3-6%) but that will not impact the fermentation at all._
> 
> I've personally read more stuff online saying rehydration isn't required for most yeasts in most conditions.


Just quickly:
- I think the info varies quite a bit from maker to maker - the viability loss being that low seems very surprising to me, as it's just so dramatically different from what I've heard which was from only a few yrs ago and a very reputable source - believe it was an industry scientific white paper done on brewing yeasts.
- There's a complete difference between 'required' i.e if you do not do this it literally will not work, and you 'should' i.e if you do not do this it will still work, but it will work better if you do.
- My personal 2c worth is that more folks will find it easierto pay $5 for an extra packet than rehydrate - and yeast co's are more than happy to have them do this

I think we can all agree a strong yeast cell count pitch is better than not - so how you choose to get those extra cells in the fermenter is up to you.


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## MHB (22/7/22)

To the best of my recollection it was Chris White (Whitelabs) that really noised this one around. He was also a co-author of the Yeast book which gives less than half a page to dry yeast, which is ridiculous given the very big role dry yeast plays in the home/brewing industry.

He did demonstrations with dry Lager yeast that showed heaps of dead cells. No surprise really given the way the demo was done, I suspect it had a lot more to do with the temperature difference between the yeast and the "Cold" wort it was dumped into.

On the US-05 info sheet above it offers two ways to use the yeast, that one is a couple of years old, Saf are now pushing their E2U (easy to use) instructions. Which are very like the second part of the how to use instructions.

Yeast is a living thing and it’s important to get the most out of it by working within its capabilities. Do things wrong and yes you can kill a lot of it off before it gets a chance to brew your beer. That includes rehydrating, unless you are very careful it’s just as easy to harm yeast rehydrating as it is direct pitching! Keep yeast in just water for more than half an hour and it starts to starve. Too big a temperature difference between rehydration and pitching will kill plenty...

In all cases I would recommend following the makers instructions - they have a vested interest in you being happy with the beer you make - in that you will come back and buy more of their products if they work well.

Personal opinion is that both direct pitching and rehydrating both work well. Big proviso being that you do it properly either way. If you aren’t holding a very good thermometer in one hand - Direct Pitch.
Mark


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