# Show Me Your Counter Pressure Filler



## Back Yard Brewer (13/1/09)

On leave and sat down to read the latest BYO. Saw the bottle filler and new I had to have / make one. Decided to take BEERbelly's advice and make it all out of SS. Now to try it out.

BYB


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## Thirsty Boy (13/1/09)

mine is somewhat less shiney

In bits - I use them for other stuff around the brewery when I am not filling





Assembled






I like the taps rather than the ball valves... I can just press with a thumb to pressurize or fill, or the picnic taps flick open and stay that way - no gas vent mechanics.. I just let it leak out around the stopper. An initial "blast" of gas without the stopper properly sealed, to deal with most of the air, then pressurize-vent, pressurize-vent, pressurize-vent... fill. About 30-60 seconds per bottle all up. 

The vinyl hose between the gas side tap and the elbow - kept blowing off, so now it has been replaced by a piece of 10mm OD beva that jams inside the fitting very tightly and does not blow out. The stainless tube is 10mm OD and could easily be replaced by 10mm beva or copper. cost me basically nothing as I had the bits lying around anyway.

Thirsty


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## Back Yard Brewer (13/1/09)

Shiney or not if it does the job.

BYB


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## Jye (13/1/09)

Mine is nearly my dream CPBF, if I could replace the 3 way valve with a JG 3 way valve I would be happy... I dislike the joins and threads that cant be cleaned  and I need to get a silicone bung.

Pressure relief valves are also a PITA so you can see Ive used a neddle through the bung in place. This provides consistent pressure relief with no stuffing around. It works by wacking it in the bottle, flicking the valve to gas (usually set to 1.5 times the carbonation pressure to reduce foaming in the bottle) and leave it for 10 seconds to purge some of the air out the needle. Then turn the valve quickly on the beer and the bottle fills. Once full close the valve and the residual pressure continues to escape through the needle. Once the pressure is release remove and cap. Done!


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## Darren (13/1/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> mine is somewhat less shiney
> 
> In bits - I use them for other stuff around the brewery when I am not filling
> 
> ...




It always amuses me that some people will go to the 'enth degree to do something that is completely unnecessary but "gloss over" the more important aspects of brewing.

Me I just use my picnic tap and turn the gas right down to a dribble.

cheers

Darren


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## Fents (13/1/09)

so what exactly has thirsty boy or anyone else in this thread "glossed over" in there brewing or bottling aspects? why pick thirsty boys post and not the op's? im like you darren i chill my bottles and turn my gas right down and it works perfect for me.

if someone wants to spend 2 hundy on a shiny or plastic CPBF whats your problem with that regardless of there brewing technique. i reckon you like to stir up thirstyboy. its the internet, get over it.


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## buttersd70 (13/1/09)

Fents said:


> its the internet, get over it.



the internet, eh??


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## goatherder (13/1/09)

Here's mine. Very similar to Jye's. My mode of operation is a little different however - I don't use a needle to relieve the pressure. I just wiggle the stopper carefully in the bottle to bleed out the C02. With a little practice it's pretty smooth.




I think I've used it once. I normally use a picnic tap for takeaways and prime & bottle out of the primary fermenter for comp beers prior to kegging the remainder.


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## kabooby (13/1/09)

I use some 8mm beer line with a bung on the line. The line fits into the picnic tap nicely. Hold the bung in place untill the beer stops flowing and then control the flow by prying the bung of slightly with my thumb. I purge with C02 if the beer is going to spend longer than a few days in the bottle.

Kabooby


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## Back Yard Brewer (13/1/09)

Darren said:


> It always amuses me that some people will go to the 'enth degree to do something that is completely unnecessary but "gloss over" the more important aspects of brewing.
> 
> Me I just use my picnic tap and turn the gas right down to a dribble.
> 
> ...




Its a forum so p**s off. The only dribble that comes around is on some of your posts. Notice I said some. On the odd occassion you do make some worthy points. Nothing constructive bugger off!!!!


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## Zwickel (13/1/09)

BYB, allow me a question: where do you release the gas from the bottle?

I guess the lower stopcock is intended to do so, but where is the vent for the gas? and how do you seal the filler to the bottle?

My first CPBF looked similar to yours, instead of your two stopcocks on top, I was using a three way stopcock and for the vent, I was using a needle valve, have a look:





Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Back Yard Brewer (14/1/09)

Zwickel said:


> BYB, allow me a question: where do you release the gas from the bottle?
> 
> I guess the lower stopcock is intended to do so, but where is the vent for the gas? and how do you seal the filler to the bottle?
> 
> ...




I forgot to put the seal on when I took the photo, trust me there is one and I have made it adjustable for different size bottles. You will see three valves in the photo, the lower one is the bleed valve. Trailed it tonight, it was late and things were not going to plan. Will have a crack at it tomorrow. The most important thing I found tonight was making sure the pressure in the bottle is the same as the keg.

BYB


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## Zwickel (14/1/09)

BYB, yes I trust you, surely your filler will work very well.

Im asking just out of interest, because it was one of my first selfmade tackle and for me its nice to see how other people come to the same solution  

When the beer is flowing in through the inner tube, so the gas from the bottle has to flow out, but I cant see any hole/channel for the gas. How gets the gas to the lower stopcock?

In my pic you can see between the inner tube and the outer fitting there is a certain space where the gas is flowing into the fitting to the releasing valve.

So you surely have a similar solution.

Cheers mate :icon_cheers:


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## Sully (14/1/09)

Zwickel said:


> BYB, allow me a question: where do you release the gas from the bottle?
> 
> I guess the lower stopcock is intended to do so, but where is the vent for the gas? and how do you seal the filler to the bottle?
> 
> ...





:icon_offtopic: but goddammit Zwickel you have some serious brew pron :icon_drool2: 




Cheers

Sully


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## Kai (14/1/09)

Jye said:


> Mine is nearly my dream CPBF, if I could replace the 3 way valve with a JG 3 way valve I would be happy... I dislike the joins and threads that cant be cleaned  and I need to get a silicone bung.
> 
> Pressure relief valves are also a PITA so you can see Ive used a neddle through the bung in place. This provides consistent pressure relief with no stuffing around. It works by wacking it in the bottle, flicking the valve to gas (usually set to 1.5 times the carbonation pressure to reduce foaming in the bottle) and leave it for 10 seconds to purge some of the air out the needle. Then turn the valve quickly on the beer and the bottle fills. Once full close the valve and the residual pressure continues to escape through the needle. Once the pressure is release remove and cap. Done!



I like that, Jye. Nice and elegant and it looks like you don't need three hands to operate it.


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## Back Yard Brewer (14/1/09)

Zwickel said:


> BYB, yes I trust you, surely your filler will work very well.
> 
> Im asking just out of interest, because it was one of my first selfmade tackle and for me its nice to see how other people come to the same solution
> 
> ...




Ah yes I see your point. I took the design from the latest BYO mag. You do have a good point and it is one that will be investigated further when trailed. Thats the beauty of forums isnt it. Look at how others can over come different problems. Good observation and constructive comments / feedback. Not just s**t canning someone for trying.

Shall report back.

BYB


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## Thirsty Boy (15/1/09)

Darren said:


> It always amuses me that some people will go to the 'enth degree to do something that is completely unnecessary but "gloss over" the more important aspects of brewing.
> 
> Me I just use my picnic tap and turn the gas right down to a dribble.
> 
> ...



I'm glad you are amused Darren - but unless you can detail which important bits of my brewing process I "gloss over" - then I'm afraid your amusement comes entirely from the unfortunate habit of laughing at your own jokes.

Me, I consider oxygen in packaged beer to be a problem.. it is the single biggest factor to staling and off flavours in bottled beer. I prefer to avoid it.

So... the details of where I gloss over the important aspects of brewing?? I'm rather looking forward to what you manage to come up with. You have a fertile imagination and a slim grasp on reality... so this should _really_ be amusing.

Oh and Fents... yes Darren does just like to stir me up, but thats OK. If he's nagging at me, he's not spouting his "wisdom" at someone who doesn't know better than to take him seriously. I kinda like it when he gets all wound up anyway.. its like playing with a feisty puppy. He'd tear your throat out if he actually had the teeth for it, but the best he can usually manage is to savagely gum your wrist.

Thirsty


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## Darren (15/1/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I'm glad you are amused Darren - but unless you can detail which important bits of my brewing process I "gloss over" - then I'm afraid your amusement comes entirely from the unfortunate habit of laughing at your own jokes.
> 
> Me, I consider oxygen in packaged beer to be a problem.. it is the single biggest factor to staling and off flavours in bottled beer. I prefer to avoid it.
> 
> ...



Hey Thirsty Boy, Fents,

Looks like i "clicked" on the wrong picture. In fact my comments were directed against anyone who thinks that making a SS CPBF is going to improve their beer. I suspect CPBF are more likely to force oxygen into the beer rather than remove it.

What does amuse me is the proponents of "BIAB" "no chill" etc who then suggest that a CPBF is the way to go.

cheers

Darren


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## Fents (15/1/09)

ahhh so its the old biab and no chill disease > CPBF...the old chicken before the egg scenario.

i still think you just like to stir up the old thirstyboy though


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## katzke (15/1/09)

Cant cause I dont have one. Just use the picnic tap with a bit of racking cane shoved in the end. Turn down the gas and burp the keg and fill a chilled bottle. Get enough foam to purge the O2 but do not do it for storage, just for taking to meetings. The pubs fill growlers from the tap with out messing with the gas so I guess it is good enough for my needs.


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## Kai (15/1/09)

How about one of these?


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## kirem (15/1/09)

I purchased on of these from Ross;

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=1069

An adjustable blow off valve. I use it for natural carbonation after I rack to keg for secondary and so I can keep the gas in if I need to rack off secondary lees or filter to another keg.

I have thought about building a CPF and wonder if you fit an adjustable blow off valve to a separate line running through the bottle bung?

then it would be a matter of controlling two valves or one 3-way- gas in until blow off valve operates then beer in, the blow off valve should then operate automagically.

Any ideas, I am about to go onto a late shift for vintage, so I will have the days to play with this idea.

cheers,

Kirk


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## Darren (15/1/09)

Fents said:


> i still think you just like to stir up the old thirstyboy though




Fents,

You are right. Good ol' thirsty boy is always up for it. Nothing like a healthy online debate to keep the minds thinking.

cheers

Darren


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## Thirsty Boy (15/1/09)

kirem said:


> I purchased on of these from Ross;
> 
> http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=1069
> 
> ...



More or less the same way Jye's version operates Kirk, just yours would have a sort of built in pressure delay and Jye's releases the pressure continuously - yours would leave "x" pressure in the bottle at the end though and so you might have trouble removing the filler without making a bit of a mess - until you get the hang of it.

I filled many a bottle just with that chunk of 10mm stainless shoved in a picnic tap... it works perfectly well if you do it as people have suggested. CP fillers are only really necessary if you want to keep the bottled beer for a period of time. Then the ability to purge the C02 and fill in a pressurized C02 environment, is likely to have a real effect on the shelf life of your beer. If I am just filling up a few swing tops for a party... the CP filler doesn't get assembled.. but if I am filling a beer I plan to age in the bottle, or for a comp thats not in the next few weeks... thats where I want to really minimise oxygen uptake.

Dammit... Darren doesn't seem too keen to play... so I had to go back on topic. Probably a good thing.

Thirsty


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## Darren (15/1/09)

I'l play.

Why does your CPBF introduce less oxygen than a slow dribbling open line (homebrew setting)?

cheers

Darren


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## KHB (15/1/09)

I thought it was because you purge the oxygen out with co2 and if there is a little oxygen left it gets purged out while your filling with beer, dont get me wrong for now i use the dribble technique


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## Darren (15/1/09)

I suspect that it actually forces oxygen into the cold beer solution. 

I can understand how it would work in an automatated brewery packaging line. Just not convinced it is better than a slow dribble at the homebrewing level.

cheers

Darren


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## Kai (15/1/09)

Why do you think it forces oxygen into the beer, darren? Because you suspect people aren't purging bottles properly, or another reason?


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## buttersd70 (15/1/09)

dnftt.


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## Hutch (15/1/09)

Kai said:


> Why do you think it forces oxygen into the beer, darren? Because you suspect people aren't purging bottles properly, or another reason?



...but surely a little oxygen is good to help fight the botulism h34r: 

Please enlighten us Darren...How does a bottle purged with C02 introduce more oxygen into the beer than a picnic tap open to the air?


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## Darren (16/1/09)

Kai,

Thats correct. You would need to add ALOT of Co2 to remove all the oxygen.

cheers

Darren


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## domonsura (16/1/09)

But CO2 is heavier than O2.

And that's the purpose of a purge, to fill the bottle with CO2. And most cp fillers that purge, purge from the bottom of the bottle. 
So if you fill the bottle with CO2, and then fill the bottle with liquid, therefore expelling the gas in the bottle _whatever it is_, simple physics say that if there is any O2 in the bottle still, the amount must be negligible.

Still I suppose it comes down to definition of 'purge' - to me, purge means enough CO2 to completely displace/expel the contents of the bottle. In that context, it's not possible for O2 to be forced into the beer, because there is none. (Hey if you force 150ml of CO2 into bottom of a 700ml bottle, it's the only possible outcome, unless there is some other source of O2 I don't know about)


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## Kai (16/1/09)

Darren said:


> Kai,
> 
> Thats correct. You would need to add ALOT of Co2 to remove all the oxygen.
> 
> ...



I'd think that removing most would still be more beneficial than no purge at all. The O2 in the bottle is still going to be forced into the beer regardless of whether you CPBF or dribble out the picnic.


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## MarkBastard (16/1/09)

If I'm currently using a bronco with very low gas pressure and tipping the bottle to the side etc, I'm guessing that a step up would be to attach a piece of hose to the bronco tap so that the beer goes straight to the bottom of the bottle and I can fill with the bottle upright? When I fill with my current method a little pocket of air gets caught where the neck of the bottle starts, until I put the bottle back upright to let it out.

Also I make sure I fill it up as much as possible so there's no place for air (I use swing tops btw), and the last CM or so is usually a foam that soon dissipates. I'm hoping that means there should be minimal oxygen.

Anyone know how long beer should last with my method?


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## Back Yard Brewer (16/1/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If I'm currently using a bronco with very low gas pressure and tipping the bottle to the side etc, I'm guessing that a step up would be to attach a piece of hose to the bronco tap so that the beer goes straight to the bottom of the bottle and I can fill with the bottle upright? When I fill with my current method a little pocket of air gets caught where the neck of the bottle starts, until I put the bottle back upright to let it out.
> 
> Also I make sure I fill it up as much as possible so there's no place for air (I use swing tops btw), and the last CM or so is usually a foam that soon dissipates. I'm hoping that means there should be minimal oxygen.
> 
> Anyone know how long beer should last with my method?




If you have access to some dry ice (and I know most have not  ) you could drop a little into the bottom of you bottle add a slighttttttt bit of beer, shake it around and tip it out. You will have more than enough gas cover whilst filling. Well thats what I do when taking wine samples to check there Co2 & N2 content. Have done a trial with and with out and the results speak for themselves.

BYB


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## Thirsty Boy (16/1/09)

Darren said:


> Kai,
> 
> Thats correct. You would need to add ALOT of Co2 to remove all the oxygen.
> 
> ...




Serious discussion?? OK

when I CP fill and purge I am usually doing it at slightly over my balance pressure for the beer in question - so I am doing it all at about 120kpa... but lets say 100kpa for simplicity of numbers.

1st - I blast a BIG shot of c02 into the bottle... unsealed so co2 blasts in and the contents blast out - I'm talking 3 or 4 seconds of "purge" with 100kpa c02. I reckon that deals with the vast majority of the 02 in the bottle right up... but lets say it only cuts it in half.

Then I pressurize with 100kpa of pure c02 - thats an atmosphere - so the amount of molecules in the bottle is now roughly double what it was at atmospheric pressure. They will mix, all this c02 is heavier than air stuff only counts if it hasn't just been shot in there at high pressure and all mixed up.

Vent - half the mixed gas escapes, including half the oxygen that was in there.

repeat the pressurize - vent step two more times

so now we are left with what??

we halved the amount of oxygen in the bottle 4 times so we are left with 0.5 to the 4th times the original oxygen.

0.5x0.5x0.5x0.5 = 0.0625.

So in my bottle there is now 0.0625 the amount of oxygen there is in yours. 

And thats pretty conservative... I suspect the initial blast removes far more than 50% and the higher the pressure... the greater the proportion of C02 removed each time you pressurize and vent...


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## katzke (16/1/09)

Just a few questions.

If I fill with a long tube from the bottom up with carbonated beer that is releasing some of its CO2 at the same time. How is enough O2 going to be able to #1 get into the beer, and #2 be left in the bottle when the beer, foam, and escaped CO2 push it out?

Only down side I can see is lower carbonation levels after capping the bottle.

What am I missing here?


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## Thirsty Boy (16/1/09)

katzke said:


> Just a few questions.
> 
> If I fill with a long tube from the bottom up with carbonated beer that is releasing some of its CO2 at the same time. How is enough O2 going to be able to #1 get into the beer, and #2 be left in the bottle when the beer, foam, and escaped CO2 push it out?
> 
> ...



The C02 doesn't push it out.. this whole C02 is heavier than air, there is a blanket of co2 covering etc etc.. is fantasy from a world without brownian motion let alone the turbulence introduced by pouring liquid into a small closed container. Your beer is in contact with a mixture of gases that is to all intents and purposes a homogeneous blend of the entire gas contents of the bottle. As you add C02, it _dilutes_ the oxygen. If you have your beer cold enough and your gas pressure low enough... there will at any rate, be very little C02 escaping from solution to dilute that gas content - and thus for the entire time your bottle takes to fill, the beer is in turbulent contact with a gas that is near enough to 20% oxygen - your cold cold beer with its low partial pressure of oxygen...... It is going to absorb oxygen as you fill it, more than enough to do the job of staling the beer in the long term. I agree though that, assuming you cap on foam, the headspace of the bottle will be virtually oxygen free.

It takes very little O2 in the bottle to affect the long term stability of your beer - thats why commercial breweries triple evacuate and purge. They wouldn't if they didn't have to.

- - - - - -

A refinement to my earlier numbers - I guessed that the initial blast of C02 from the CP filler would result in a higher dilution of the O2 than 50%... I did a little experiment and crunched some numbers to show just how much.

Using a balloon, I discovered that my regulator set to 100kpa passes through an open picnic tap - 4.2L of gas in three seconds. This is near enough to 5 times the volume of a 750ml bottle.

So how much 02 does this remove if I shoot that C02 into the bottle? OK, into the bottle goes 5 volumes of pure gas, there was already 1 volume of gas mix in there, so now we have a total of 6 volumes of gas mixture. The mixture will be basically homogeneous, so each volume contains 1/6th of the gases that were originally in the bottle. Now the bottle is open, so 5 of the 6 volumes escape. Leaving behind 1 in the bottle - which contains 1/6th or 0.167 of the original amount of oxygen.

So with my original numbers modified to include this figure - a 3 second purge followed by a triple pressurize-vent regime @ 100kpa would leave you with 

0.167 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.021 of the original oxygen content - less at higher pressures than 100kpa. 


Whether or not you think reducing the oxygen contact by 98% or not is worth it... is entirely up to you

TB


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## MarkBastard (16/1/09)

Thirsty boy, looks like I'll have to drink my bottled beers tonight then. I bottled them using the slow trickle method into swing tops with a bit of foam on top allowed to spill over so the lid basically squashed a lot of foam out. Was planning on keeping them for months. It's been at most two weeks. So you're saying if they're not already stale they will be soon right? And that bottling in this fashion is good for parties or swaps but not for storage?

Cheers


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## Thirsty Boy (16/1/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Thirsty boy, looks like I'll have to drink my bottled beers tonight then. I bottled them using the slow trickle method into swing tops with a bit of foam on top allowed to spill over so the lid basically squashed a lot of foam out. Was planning on keeping them for months. It's been at most two weeks. So you're saying if they're not already stale they will be soon right? And that bottling in this fashion is good for parties or swaps but not for storage?
> 
> Cheers



no no... nothing quite that drastic. A month or two and I have no doubt they will be fine. You do keep em in the fridge the whole time, yes??

I'm not talking the things go sour or undrinkably stale, just that they will _more quickly_ start to show the signs of oxidation and aging. Drink em up.. and if you start to notice that they aren't as good as they were, drink em fast.

I'm talking about bottling for aging and bottling for comps where you want things in tip top shape. I would personally spend 10c on a bit of 10mm OD beva so that you could bottle from the bottom rather than down the side, but apart from that, I think that CP fillers are for when you are being _fussy_ and are too much of a PITA to bother with otherwise.

If I have the CP filler set up anyway.. I might bottle a run for general consumption while I'm at it. But otherwise, if its gonna be in the bottle for a month or less... couldn't be arsed.

TB


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## MarkBastard (16/1/09)

Yep in the fridge!

I just bottled the last bits of my keg for 'safe keeping', ie if in a month or two I wanted to sample that batch, until I used that recipe again. It's not the end of the world so I think I'll just drink it. In fact I kinda liked it when I thought they were about to go stale cause I wanted an excuse to get into them hahaha.

There's only 3 500ml bottles anyway.


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## Darren (16/1/09)

Demonsura,

CO2 is heavier than air, but they are both readily mixable gasses.

Thirsty,

I still dont understand why ensuring a pressurised system whilst filling is better than very slow fill.

If you slow fill, all the O2 is pushed out the neck of the bottle (the last bit with the "overflow").

CPBF on the other hand (by your calculations) ensures that O2 remains in the beer.

You will of course be aware that gas and liquid do not mix unless under pressure?

As I wrote before, unless you want to fill 1000 bottles a minute (with precise timing as in mega breweries) a HB CPBF is a waste of time and money (unless you have a vested interest in promoting such a product).

cheers

Darren


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## KHB (16/1/09)

Darren said:


> Demonsura,
> 
> 
> As I wrote before, unless you want to fill 1000 bottles a minute (with precise timing as in mega breweries) a HB CPBF is a waste of time and money (unless you have a vested interest in promoting such a product).
> ...




But if you have endless access to stainless steel fitting for nix like i know someone on here does than whats the harm in putting one together, i use the dribble method because i cant afford an item that wont get used often.

KHB


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## Jye (16/1/09)

All valid points.






But if you CPF at carbonation pressure you will not force any more of the 2% left over oxygen into the beer, not that you would force much into the beer in the 30 sec it takes to fill a bottle. Either way I think any residual yeast left in the beer will be able to process it. Beside I wouldnt have the tolerance to trickle fill 30 odd bottles :huh:


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## Zwickel (16/1/09)

despite my poor english, Id like to state my point of view:

Normally you are holding your beer under a certain pressure of CO2, say under the optimal content of CO2.
Now you would like to get your beer without losing any CO2 into bottles.

In the case youre going to fill the bottle by tap, the beer is going to foam and foaming means losing CO2.
In the end, your beer in the bottle contains less CO2 than your dispensing source did.

If you are using a counter pressure system, the beer will not going to foam and so its not going to lose any CO2.
After that the beer in the bottle contains the same amount of CO2 as the dispensing source was.

Id like to emphasize, the counterpressure is necessary only to avoid foaming , hence to keep the CO2 content at the same level as in the dispensing keg. So youll be able to fill the bottle completely without any foam until the neck.

That for Ive built a more comfortable CPBF, just to be able to fill bottles like the industrie is doing.....and I love my filler  


Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## alexbrand (16/1/09)

Hi mates!

This is my CPBF:






It's an half automated filler with included capper. Works on steam... :super: 
Okay, not really steam but electricity and comressed air.

More pics are in my gallery and some short vids on YouTube.



Cheers,

Alex


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## poppa joe (16/1/09)

" WOW "....
Looks like a lot of trouble this CFBF Thingy..
I think i will just keep drinking it from the Fermenter...
PJ. :icon_vomit:


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## Darren (16/1/09)

Zwickel said:


> despite my poor english, Id like to state my point of view:
> 
> Normally you are holding your beer under a certain pressure of CO2, say under the optimal content of CO2.
> Now you would like to get your beer without losing any CO2 into bottles.
> ...





Zwickel,

I dont know if you have actually tried it, but there is no foaming with the "trickle" method (well no more than is necessary to purge the oxygen from the bottle (ala megabreweries). I can easily fill a bottle to the neck without foaming.

Works surprisingly well.

Carbonate keg to desired level. Attach a bottle filling line from the keg without a "gun" attached. Bleed keg head excess. Attach keg line to gas bottle. Turn regulator right down. Turn on gas. Adjust flow to "causing no bubbles". Watch bottle fill (30 seconds). Cap.

My experience with CPB fillers was that I lost the same, or more gas from the bottle once I took time to remove the filler, put the filler down, and then capped my bottle. 

Your system seems to take taken the "hand work" away and looks good.


cheers

darren


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## domonsura (16/1/09)

poppa joe said:


> " WOW "....
> Looks like a lot of trouble this CFBF Thingy..




I'm with you PJ - personally, the only reason I made a CPBF in the first place was to prevent loss of carbonation when bottling for case swaps. Not much to do with O2 absorption or the prevention of. Worked a treat from what I can tell, I wasn't losing carbonation, beer or any foaming. 

But thanks for the little science lesson there 'Derren', gee, is that why air is a mix of gases? Wow. My physics & chemistry lecturers were right after all. :blink: Who knew? :lol:


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## kram (16/1/09)

*+*






My deepest apologies to all those that have consumed my oxidized beer using this method.


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## Zwickel (16/1/09)

Yes Darren, I know very well your method, Ive tried it as well.

Okay, with some of the beers it works, but with the most of my beers not. It depends on the content of protein (foam) and CO2 (Weizen contains more CO2 than Pilsener).

Anyway, if youre going to purge the empty bottle with CO2 prior filling, the beer doesnt get any contact with oxgen, unlikely your method.

I have bottled some beers and stored away for more than 6 month, there was no change in taste, not at all. 

Okay, each to their own, its just a topic we can discuss about. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Jye (16/1/09)

kram said:


>



How do you fill a bottle with one of these Kram? :huh:


----------



## kram (16/1/09)

I knew I forgot an image :chug: 






edit: Sorry Jye, there's also some beer line and a disconnect that also connects to this!


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## domonsura (17/1/09)

Careful mate :lol: the last time I came up with a clever idea like that, we all ended up only beng able to edit our posts for 10 minutes after we've written them :lol:
By the way, is that the IPA or the ESB grammar & spellcheck you're using there? :lol: :chug:


----------



## AndrewQLD (17/1/09)

Jye said:


> How do you fill a bottle with one of these Kram? :huh:




I use a similar method to Kram with a couple of mods Jye, works great. 

I jam a bit of beer tube into the cap, just long enough to reach the bottom of the bottle. Screw the cap on tight and attach gas, unscrew lid slightly and purge O2, tighten lid back up. 

Remove gas connection and attach a line with two liquid connections, one to your outpost on the keg and the other to the cap on the bottle. At this point the bottle still is under pressure so no beer flows in, loosen the cap slightly and the beer starts to fill the bottle with no foaming. Fill completely to the top, disconnect the beer in line and unscrew and replace lid with standard cap.

It's how I filled most of my bottles for the Qld and National comps with good results.
Hope that wasn't too confusing :huh: 

Andrew


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## Thirsty Boy (17/1/09)

Darren said:


> Demonsura,
> 
> CO2 is heavier than air, but they are both readily mixable gasses.
> 
> ...



Its the 02 that might be absorbed into the beer during actual filling, not the stuff thats left in the bottle that is what I am trying to avoid.. your statement

'.... You will of course be aware that gas and liquid do not mix unless under pressure?..."

is of course true... the 100kpa of atmospheric pressure being more than enough pressure to do the trick. Especially when the liquid is being poured down the side of a bottle... high surface area, agitation + the surface area of the liquid as it rises up the bottle. And the liquid is very cold and has a low partial pressure of oxygen... which really makes it prone to absorb the 02.

If thats not true.. then every person who has ever suggested that you can get unwanted oxygen in beer by transfers or by splashing or anything other than pressurizing it.. is wrong; and they aren't. Didn't you ever do the high school chemistry experiment where you make a little fountain using the vacuum created when Co2 dissolves rapidly into a caustic solution?? Thats an example of a gas dissolving into a liquid under less than atmospheric pressure.

If people don't want to use CP fillers, fine, don't. If you don't think your beers are oxidised as a result of filling in the presence of oxygen, fine don't worry about it, it either didn't happen at all, or for your palate its not a concern.

But absolutely, for 100% certain - beers filled into unpurged bottles, either by filling from the bottom or by dribbling down the sides are going to absorb some oxygen and significantly more than they would in a container purged with Co2. The pressure is only about carbonation loss.

Its my opinion that for long term aging and when I am really concerned about presenting an beer at its best... that oxygen matters. If thats not your opinion, then you probably wont see any point in a CP filler.

Oh and as for the yeast re-absorbing it. Active yeast would do that.. but yeast in a finished beer, in a low nutrient high alcohol high C02 environment, that has already gone into it dormant phase and has no reason to come out of it - it might... but probably not. Different story if you are bottle conditioning. And my beers are filtered and force carbed anyway.. not a lot of yeast in there to do the trick even if they were so inclined.

Here's a little something that gives a good overveiw of the role of oxygen in brewing. Not much in the way of thresholds and amounts..... Its not winning my argument for me kind of stuff, but it is good solid general info.

View attachment 03___The_role_of_oxygen.pdf


Enjoy

Thirsty


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## KHB (17/1/09)

WOW this thread got off topic really quick i remember the title being "show me your counterpressure filler" not "how much oxygen is left in your beer when you use a CPBF"!!!!!!!


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## Thirsty Boy (17/1/09)

sort of... but in the the people who are going to look at a thread called show me your CP bottle filler, are probably those who are thinking about making/buying one for themselves. Now they get to look at a few examples & they get a good set of positive and negative arguments about whether they need to bother, and some alternatives they might try...

not so off topic really.


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## KHB (17/1/09)

I know im just s#*t stirring.  I plan on building one of the cheaper versions to bottle for competitions one day.

KHB


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## KHB (17/1/09)

goatherder said:


> Here's mine. Very similar to Jye's. My mode of operation is a little different however - I don't use a needle to relieve the pressure. I just wiggle the stopper carefully in the bottle to bleed out the C02. With a little practice it's pretty smooth.
> 
> View attachment 23871
> 
> ...




Ive never seen these taps with the three connections, where does on get one??


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## Darren (17/1/09)

Thirsty Boy,

You write as though you are filling commercial volumes of beer (needs to be quick). Problem is that homebrewers think that "if the big guys do it this way my beer will also be better".

Using your method, you say you are not using pressure to hold the "gas" in. Then how does that help carbonation levels as presumably it is a free venting system? If it is not free venting then you must have a build-up of pressure and increased absorbance of unwanted O2.

Also, how are you capping your bottle after its full? Do you remove the filler move it to the capper? Dont you lose pressure at this stage. On a brewery line, this stage takes milliseconds!!

Using the dribble method, I am proposing that the small release of CO2 whilst the initial "dribble" occurs will provide a thin layer of C02 over the beer. The remaining oxygen will then be purged completely once the beer is full. The O2 containing bubbles will pour over the top of the bottle (protective layer) and removed.

As a side note, this years winning pilsener in the SABSOSA HB comp was bottle conditioned!!

cheers

Darren


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## Thirsty Boy (17/1/09)

sorry Darren, either I completely misunderstand what you are saying, or you have completely misunderstood me.

To respond to your points in order.. I will quote them

YOU: "You write as though you are filling commercial volumes of beer (needs to be quick). Problem is that homebrewers think that "if the big guys do it this way my beer will also be better"

ME: I fill very small amounts of bottles - CP filling when I do it is _slower_ than just filling from a picnic tap with a bit of tube.... but I do it because I think it is going to give a better result. I think my beer _will_ be better. Or I wouldn't bother.

YOU: "Using your method, you say you are not using pressure to hold the "gas" in. Then how does that help carbonation levels as presumably it is a free venting system? If it is not free venting then you must have a build-up of pressure and increased absorbance of unwanted O2"

ME: What?? of course I am using pressure to hold the gas in... You purge out the air so there isn't any oxygen to absorb.. then you fill under C02 pressure to preserve the carbonation levels. I thought you understood how CP fillers worked, but now I'm not so sure.

YOU: Also, how are you capping your bottle after its full? Do you remove the filler move it to the capper? Dont you lose pressure at this stage. On a brewery line, this stage takes milliseconds!!

ME: Yes, I lose pressure when I take the filler out. This is a necessary thing. When you take the fill tube out, the level of liquid drops and some air is pulled back into the bottle. The pressure drop causes the beer to fob and the rising bubbles push out the air. You cap on the resulting overflow of foam. Thus minimal contact with O2 during the fill and minimal O2 trapped in the headspace. You are slightly wrong about commercial filling - the period between the end of the fill and the capping of the bottle - is actually carefully designed to allow exactly that pressure loss and fobbing to occur. For exactly the same reason. In my filling process (when I get it right) I have the bottle on the capper and am pressing the lever, just as the foam starts to come out of the bottle. If I get it there too quickly... I wait till the foam _does_ come out. If I get it there too slowly, more foam will come out, I will have a low fill and a slight loss of carbonation. I curse and don't send my low fills to comps.

YOU: "Using the dribble method, I am proposing that the small release of CO2 whilst the initial "dribble" occurs will provide a thin layer of C02 over the beer. The remaining oxygen will then be purged completely once the beer is full. The O2 containing bubbles will pour over the top of the bottle (protective layer) and removed."

ME: This is our real point of difference then. I don't think that that is true. I think that the gases will mix due to the turbulence of the inflowing beer and the general propensity of gases to mix because of brownian motion. I thought you had the same opinion actually. At least you derided domonsura for seeming to think otherwise only a few posts back??? Besides, that doesn't account for the beer thats running down the side of the bottle through the normal air. As I said, its 02 pick-up during the fill that I am trying to avoid, not 02 remaining in the bottle. As you point out, and me also in my last response, the headspace will be virtually 02 free due to being filled by CO2 containing bubbles before capping.

YOU: "As a side note, this years winning pilsener in the SABSOSA HB comp was bottle conditioned!!"

ME: And congratulations to the winning brewer! well done I am sure it was a great beer. So... what's your point again? I didn't think we were talking about bottle conditioning at all. Completely different set of circumstances and none of the arguments used so far have anything to do with bottle conditioned beers.

Clearer? In this case I'm not just arguing with you for fun.. I really am trying to explain why I think that CP filling is a superior filling technique. A pain in the bum to do and not worth bothering about most of the time... but actually superior and worth doing under certain circumstances.

Thirsty


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## Darren (17/1/09)

Thirsty,

You must be a quick typist.

I say we have to agree to disagree. You are using greater pressure (and certainly not purging all O2) therfore forcing O2 into the beer.

Yes, I agree gases mix due to Brownian motion. Liquid and gas, at atmosheric pressure, is far less likely to mix. All my O2 is leaving the bottle with the bubbles. CPBF ensures that mixing ( I assume you get some turbulence with your method) of the trapped O2. I can assure all the nay-sayers that simply purging the bottle does not remove all the O2 (although it seems that it should). If anyone is interested, I can describe a simple experiment (using liquid as it is easy to quantitate) to demonstrate that it is likely that significantly more O2 is left in the bottle than you would imagine.

My side note from the previous post pertains to the fact that you can win the most finicky class of beer simply by bottle conditioning and that CPBF maybe a complete waste of time/money/effort.

Everyone to their own I guess.

cheers

darren


----------



## Thirsty Boy (18/1/09)

Oh we disagree alright, but you seem to just not read whats been previously posted.

CP filling doesn't purge all the 02.. but I went to some effort to demonstrate that my method does indeed purge more than 98% of the 02 - if your method is effective, then CP filling after a purge does everything that your method does... but in an atmosphere that has vastly lower levels of 02. Yes at higher levels of pressure, so the 02 present will dissolve into solution faster. Yours is at one atmosphere of pressure, a 100kpa CPF is at twice that, so the gas present in the pressurised environment will dissolve twice as quickly... but there is 50 times less of it, and the filling process is a bit faster than the dribble down the side method, so it has less contact time. So two times fifty times less, for less time... yep, that'd be more then :unsure: 

You keep saying that all your 02 leaves the bottle with the bubbles... I in fact agreed with you that all the 02 in the headspace is pushed out by the bubbles (which are full of C02 not 02) but thats got nothing to do with the pick-up during filling; and I have said, and repeated, and repeated again... that thats what I am talking about. I am talking abut 02 absorbed during filling, _not_ after the bottle is closed. 

I don't know why I am arguing this point actually. I can understand you saying that you think your method is effective enough to render CP filling unnecessary, fair enough. I get that. But now you seem to be trying to say that CP filling is in and of itself not effective at reducing 02 absorption... and thats just plain wrong.

CP filling is brewing industry standard for filling pre-carbonated beer into containers. They use it because it is the most effective way to reduce oxygen pick-up and prevent beer staling. This is for small breweries, big breweries and everyone in between, from 1000 bottle a minute to people processing them one at a time by hand. They wouldn't let you fill their bottles your way if you offered to do it for free.

You want to know if purging is effective and you are obviously willing to accept liquid as substitute for gas... OK heres an experiement which is the rough analogue of just the first step of my purge process.

Take a roughly 750ml bottle with a wideish mouth - fill it with water, add a little red food dye - now take your garden hose and stick it in the bottle all the way to the bottom - turn garden hose on hard for 3-4 seconds - examine water thats currently in bottle for redness. Your garden hose probably wont be able to manage the 4L in 3 seconds that is the amount of gas my CP filler shoots in that time.. but you will get the picture.

Your side note is even after your explanation, still utter irrelevant, we are talking about filling bottles with pre-carbonated beer, not about bottle conditioning. Thats just a simple distraction from the fact that your argument is a bit weak I'm afraid.

TB


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## Thirsty Boy (18/1/09)

OK, to be fair about it... I just did the experiment that I described.

I attached a hose to my kitchen tap and used a 750ml coopers PET bottle. I coloured the water with 1 level tablespoon of coffee powder (no food dye)

I measured the amount of water i could push through and without blowing off the hose, it took about 7 seconds to get 4L - remember 4L is the amount of gas I measured that goes through my CP filler in three seconds when I purge. 

So I put the hose into the bottom of the bottle, covered the whole shebang with a towel so it wouldn't make a mess and gave it a 7 second (4L) burst with the water

This is what came out - the original colour on the left, the purged colour on the right.





The right hand glass looks clear in the photo, but to be honest, there was some colour left that you could see. Nonetheless, a very comprehensive reduction.

And certainly in my CP filling technique, that purge is only the first step... there follows a triple pressurise-vent sequence that at 100kpa of pressure would reduce any 02 remaining after the purge to 0.125 of the post purge amount, less at the higher pressure I actually use.

I wont draw any conclusions, I think they are obvious.

This argument has been ridiculous for some time anyway, and I am sure we are irritating the crap out of anyone who was foolish or masochistic enough to keep following this thread after Darren and I took it over as out own private feuding ground. I shall leave the last word to you if you want it Darren, and quit while before I look even sillier than I do already.

Nice CP filler BYB - I reckon you will get great service out of what looks like a really robust and well built unit.

Thirsty out.


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## Darren (18/1/09)

Hey Thirsty.

You have proved with water that plenty of O2 (dye) stays in the bottle. Well done. I bet you did not expect that given the volume of water you put in the bottle.

Now do the same experiment and slowly pour 100 ml of water into the bottle, drain then repeat, drain and repeat. I betcha 300ml of water (three doses of 100ml) removes more dye than you full-on purge of 4 litres.

You must have turbulence in your bottle (more than dribbling) as you are filling under pressure.

What I am saying is that CPBF is not a super magical instrument that is an essential part of the brewery. In fact, if not used correctly could produce worse end-product than simple dribble filling. 

They ARE awkward to use and generally end up making a god awful mess and are a pain to clean and sanitise.

As for bottle priming being completely off topic. Yes and no. The way that CPBF has been presented by you in this thread is that if a brewer wants perfect beer, that is what you suggest will acheive it. There were plenty of double filtered, CPBF beers in the euro lager class but the best one (no not mine) used neither of these processes.

cheers

Darren


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## slacka (18/1/09)

I really couldn't give a rats if there is air in the bottle or not as the bottle will be consumed before too long.

What this thread has enlightened me to though is that there are better methods of filling your bottle, without foam and a rather large head space, from your keg without resorting to submerging your bottles into your open keg.

Love the brew porn. Can we get back on track now? I want to see more examples (apart from the dribble technique) for filling bottles from your keg.

The more homebrew the technique the better in my books.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (18/1/09)

slacka said:


> ... submerging your bottles into your open keg.



I'm going to have to try this now you've put the idea in my head.


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## Back Yard Brewer (20/1/09)

Zwickel said:


> BYB, allow me a question: where do you release the gas from the bottle?
> 
> I guess the lower stopcock is intended to do so, but where is the vent for the gas? and how do you seal the filler to the bottle?
> 
> ...




Was wondering what size SS tube that you have used.

BYB


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## KHB (7/2/09)

Well i used BYB's CPBF a week ago and cracked one open tonight. It opened with a fizz and poured a nice head and had good carbonation, poured exactly like the keg did from the tap, hopefully byb will help me make one of my own???

KHB


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## Back Yard Brewer (7/2/09)

KHB said:


> Well i used BYB's CPBF a week ago and cracked one open tonight. It opened with a fizz and poured a nice head and had good carbonation, poured exactly like the keg did from the tap, hopefully byb will help me make one of my own???
> 
> KHB




How did the CPBF method stack up against the dribble method as described earlier  Or have you not yet tried that method. I am sure there are others that would be interested on your experince.

BYB


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## KHB (8/2/09)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> How did the CPBF method stack up against the dribble method as described earlier  Or have you not yet tried that method. I am sure there are others that would be interested on your experince.
> 
> BYB




Ive done the dribble method and after a week its normally border line flat so i will definetly be making one of these..

KHB


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## drsmurto (9/2/09)

Ive used the dribble method very successfully in the past. 

Never had problems with lack of carbonation - if the beer was carbed up before pouring and was literally dribbled down the side of the bottle without foaming and sealed immediately where is the CO2 supposed to go?  

Ive given out bottles that i have filled in this manner, months after and havent been told the beer was flat.

Low carbed yes, but my kegged beer is only at 1.6 vol CO2 anyway.....


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## Batz (26/10/09)

Where's yours old mate?

Next question was it worth the $100.00?


Batz


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## FNQ Bunyip (26/10/09)

Jezzz Batz you must be on stanby , and board out of your head to be dragging up 8 month old posts ,,, 


Canteen should be open in half an hour ... lol 

cheers


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## Chad (16/1/10)

Bought a Fermentap one the other day from Craftbrewer, and made some modifications to it as it was just a little too complicated for my liking. I removed the gas relief sleeve and valve and fitted a new rubber stopper, and replaced the barbs with quick fittings.



To compress the bottle with CO2 I push down firmly.



Then switch over to the beer line and pull the filler tube up slightly so that there is a gap between the stopper and 'T' piece. The key to making this work is drilling the hole in the stopper slightly too large so it now vents gas.


As you can see, the bottle is filling with very little foaming. Very happy with the results. A good piece of starting hardware that Fermentap CPBF.



With the spare relief valve, this was recycled along with some extra parts to make a spunding valve :lol: . Haven't tested it yet.


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## zabond (17/1/10)

my cpbf is a simple brass female "T" with 2 ball valves 1 gas in 1 beer in ss tube for filling clark rubber stopper drilled to suit ss tube [looks like chads but with 2 taps] drilled a small hole 1mm through stopper next to filler tube then inserted a fooball inflator needle [$1 @ sports store ]which had a checkvalve in it,close needle checkvalve open gas tap short burst close gas tap open beer tap release inflator valve fills very slow with very little foaming,dont know the cost of the fermtap but mine all up was under $30,but the best bit[and cheapest] is the inflation valve which makes it a 1 handed operation


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## DanRayner (28/3/10)

I came to this thread looking for answers as to how much should I compensate for CO2 loss after disconnecting the CPF from the bottle after filling and moments before capping.

ie: at what kPa do people force carbonate the keg (at <5degC)

However, I came across quite a bit of nonsense about the amount of oxygen left after purging each bottle with CO2. There is a simpler answer that our Top Bloke Craig "Stagger" Webber showed me:

You fill the bottle to the brim with water (or whatever no-rinse sanitising solution you like to use) then connect your CPF, invert the bottle and purge out the water with CO2. If the bottle started off with no O2 in it (ie: filled with water) and then after this procedure the bottle no longer has water in it then it can only have CO2, right?

Now. How much kPa CO2 do I charge a 5degC keg with so that when I CPF I have a reasonable amount of carbonation in the beer?

cheers,

Dan


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## jimmysuperlative (27/4/10)

I've seen these on fleabay and on a few HBS websites. Anyone used them before? What can you report?









...


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## jimmysuperlative (28/4/10)

No? Nobody using one?


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## AndrewQLD (28/4/10)

I've posted this before, but here you go.
Link Here


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## Kleiny (28/4/10)

Yep Jimmy i have one at the moment

only fills PET bottles needs the wider plastic neck but all round a great bit of kit. Ive used it mostly to empty a couple of kegs with not much beer left and also take a 6 around to mates. It works really well.

Kleiny


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## Paul H (28/4/10)

Kleiny said:


> Yep Jimmy i have one at the moment
> 
> only fills PET bottles needs the wider plastic neck but all round a great bit of kit. Ive used it mostly to empty a couple of kegs with not much beer left and also take a 6 around to mates. It works really well.
> 
> Kleiny



Hey Kleiny,
Given that I'm a tool tard, is it difficult to use, looking at the pic I have no idea how to use it.

:icon_cheers: 

Paul


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## devo (28/4/10)

Kai said:


> How about one of these?



That's bloody impressive!!!

I recently purchased a blichmann and despite some of the not so glowing comments about them on this forum I've not had an issue at all with it. Works a treat and simple to use.

...no affiliation of course.


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## jimmysuperlative (28/4/10)

Kleiny said:


> Yep Jimmy i have one at the moment
> 
> only fills PET bottles needs the wider plastic neck but all round a great bit of kit. Ive used it mostly to empty a couple of kegs with not much beer left and also take a 6 around to mates. It works really well.
> 
> Kleiny



So, does it screw onto the PET bottle? I'm really looking for a filler for bottles/longnecks ...might have to check out other options.


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## michaelcocks (1/5/10)

Probably doesn't comply to all the brownian motion stuff ...

But this works for me...
(don't want flame war, this is just what I do...I don't even know it is correct as I make assumptions such as Co2 is heavier than air and will sink to bottom of chilled bottle after a while)

Clean and sanitize bottles, whack em in freezer for 20 mins.

I keep a water sprayer with iodophor solution made up and give a quick squirt to the bottle neck and the bung just prior to any "contact" 

Squirt of CO2 from Soastream under pressure (rubber bung held tight against neck of bottle) another quirt to blow out any air sat "on top of CO2" 
Metal tube allows co2 to be dispensed near the bottom of the bottle. Now (I think) I have largely co2 in the bottom of a chilled bottle (probably not due to the brownian motion stuff that thirsty boy was saying?)

Turn gas pressure right down (40kpa) Fill through the length of tube on picnic (bronco) tap with rubber bung held tight on bottle opening (this can actually be done with one hand) - Then "gently rock" the bumg side to side so the filling bottle forces the air out (and hopefully leaves co2 layer against beer) Allow foam to pressure up remove the tubing and follow with tiny squirt so that I "cap on foam" 

I fill in a washing up bowl as there is inevitably a foam over and few pressure squirts etc. Clean bottle doe with iodophor spray and disposable kitchen towel . 

Cost of parts : Less than 5$

(picnic tap I assume everyone has - works from tap on fridge too - just a little less control) If you dont have picnic tap the AHB sponsors stock them ... 

Length of vinyl tube I have anyway - it's the same size as what I use to fill keg from fermenter - just cut so it reached 80% way down the bottle - mine will fill 345, 330, 375 ml and still be far enough down a 750ml bottle for me to not worry about it.

Length of steel pipe I had from a party keg (garden sprayer) I built so the entire spend was the two rubber bungs which are actually rubber feet designed to go on chairs (about 4$ from BigW for pack of four - chairs have four legs see - (other stores are available) - drill an appropriate sized hole in them. If you don't have the metal tube you could use another piece of tubing ... 

Let's assume you have to buy the tubing it would be .50c to 1$

Works for me - although I only fill for carry out - never for "keeps" I have maybe gone 3 months with one of these bottles - tastes good still


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## Tony (29/6/11)

After of years of thinking about it i finally did it.

I begged, borrowed, bought and "found" the parts i needed and put together my work in progress.

I gave it a run tonight bottling some SSS for the NSW state comp and it fills the bottles with about 3mm of foam at the top.

Pressure relief is just a SMC adjustable valve exhaust i use at work to control the speed valves close to stop water hammer. I cut the foam silencing material off it and it works great. Its a needle valve design unit and i ended up getting best results with the tap before it left open (so im going to remove the tap). Open gas and lift rubber cork to purge air from bottle. Push back in and bring to pressure. then just shut the gas and open the beer and it flows in slow and smooth. When full turn off the beer and the remaining pressure relieves slowly by its self stopping foaming.

Its a sturdy T shape too which makes it easy to hold on top of the bottle while operating.......... It was very easy to operate and after filling about 10 bottles i had lost about 10ml of beer and that was the first couple "L plate" bottles. after the first couple i didnt spill a drop!

very happy!

Here is the complete unit ans it stands at the moment:






In this picture i have slid the rubber grommet off the fitting to show the gas release path. The tube is welded into the top fitting and the T piece screws on over this. A work mate found the SS tube with the 1/4 BSPT welded fitting lying around as scrap and was going to use it as an air blower. I asked for it as i had a better use 






The filler's gas relief needle valve. If anyone wants i can find the SMC part number for these..... they are only a few dollars each from RS components






Cheers


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## argon (6/7/11)

Mounted my CPBF last night, as purchased from the lads at Craftbrewer. Haven't christened it yet, gotta get myself a few PETs first. 

I've run the blow off tube inside the fridge which is captured in a bottle, just to make the outside look a little neater.

My concern is that is was going to make the fridge look a little strange with this contraption mounted next to the perlicks, but i think it still looks pretty good.

Next job is to make up something where i can fill glass bottles from it. Was thinking something like the top of a PET with a bung under it and a tube to the bottom of the bottle.








Excuse the crappy iphone quality pics.


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## matho (6/7/11)

looks great tony, good job mate.

cheers steve


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## Florian (6/7/11)

Hey Argon, that looks almost exactly the same as my setup. 

The only differences are that I drilled all holes on the same height, and my blow off tube goes into the fridge as well, but then comes out again down below and goes directly into the drip tray. 













I have tried a similar idea to be able to fill glass bottles, took a PET top and formed a silicon mold into it in which the bottle top fits. It didn't seal properly though, so I thought a pre made bung would be a better option, glued or siliconed in.


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## argon (6/7/11)

Florian, nice... yeah i haven't done it yet, because i haven't got a drip tray mounted, but when i do i'll be returning the blow off to the drip tray, just like yours. 

I mounted the CPBF a little lower because i think it wouldn't allowed me to open the freezer door (on second look though i think it would have been fine). Actually i think we've got the same fridge... Ha. I have the shank in the fridge without a locking nut on the back... seems to just be able to be kept in place by the little ridge on the shank inside the fridge (if you know what i mean?) With the blow-off going through the door it keeps it tight in place and doesn't move.

BTW i love those chrome/SS? handles goes beautifully with the perlicks... where'd you get them?

On another note... how do you keep the blackboard paint so clean?... mine is a mess. Looked good until i tried to clean it. The chalk tends to not come off so well...it's not very smooth and hard to wipe down, so i've given up writing on it and now just use those decal holders.


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## argon (6/7/11)

one more Q florian... where'd you get that drip tray?


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## Florian (6/7/11)

Looks like the same fridge to me, mine was $5 on ebay.

I have my shank mounted the 'wrong way', with the thread on the outside. I left the insulation inside the fridge and there was no way I could mount it the way intended, as the threaded bit was too short. So my ridge is on the outside, so the shank is basically sitting loose, but I drilled the hole so tight that I had to force the shank in there. 

I got the chrome handles and the chrome ring thingies (the ones that are usually black plastic, where the shank is coming out of the fridge) from the US, two separate suppliers. I was looking to find them here, but no luck. Same with the drip tray, from the states, another separate supplier. Happy to send you the infos if you want?

As for the black board paint: well, it's still the first writing on it, so haven't cleaned it yet. But I think it should still be alright to clean. Did you spray yours? I got the actual paint, and my lovely wife put on three coats of paint over a week, with plenty of drying time in between. Obviously it's her writing too. 

I'm yet to put pictures up in the keg setup thread, they will be a bit more detailed in regards to installation etc.


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## ben_sa (6/7/11)

Sorry to stray OT... But i know id love to know the supplier of those chrome parts. 

id pm you but my phone locks up on the pm page

sorry to hijack


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## hoppinmad (6/7/11)

Florian said:


> Hey Argon, that looks almost exactly the same as my setup.
> 
> The only differences are that I drilled all holes on the same height, and my blow off tube goes into the fridge as well, but then comes out again down below and goes directly into the drip tray.
> 
> ...




I have the same set up as you guys and use it with champagne bottles. You just need to insert a thin rubber gasket 
underneath the original one and hey presto you have airtight seal. I managed to find an alcoholic on freecycle who drinks about a dozen bottles of cheap sparkling wine very week. She is now my chief supplier of bottles.


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## Batz (6/7/11)

HoppinMad said:


> I have the same set up as you guys and use it with champagne bottles. You just need to insert a thin rubber gasket
> underneath the original one and hey presto you have airtight seal. I managed to find an alcoholic on freecycle who drinks about a dozen bottles of cheap sparkling wine very week. She is now my chief supplier of bottles.




Pictures please :lol:


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## Florian (6/7/11)

Yes, pictures please!!!
I tried in the past to just press a glass bottle against the white seal, but was unable to get it to seal properly. 
Have just tried a champagne bottle and i only get it to fit in with the upper lip, meaning there is a gap of a few cm. Might have to use different champagne bottles, I only had a Veuve Clicquot.

EDIT: will send you guys the chrome parts info today or tomorrow, have to dig through my emails first to find it.


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## hoppinmad (6/7/11)

Florian said:


> Yes, pictures please!!!
> I tried in the past to just press a glass bottle against the white seal, but was unable to get it to seal properly.
> Have just tried a champagne bottle and i only get it to fit in with the upper lip, meaning there is a gap of a few cm. Might have to use different champagne bottles, I only had a Veuve Clicquot.



Pictures on their way. Sparkling wine bottles won't work without the extra gasket put under the white one you got with the cpbf. It only needed about and extra 2mm to provide an airtight seal. I'm surprised they don't provide you with two different sized gaskets so you can use it for plastic and glass.


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## jbumpstead (6/7/11)

Florian said:


> Hey Argon, that looks almost exactly the same as my setup.
> 
> The only differences are that I drilled all holes on the same height, and my blow off tube goes into the fridge as well, but then comes out again down below and goes directly into the drip tray.
> 
> ...



Very very nice setup Florian!


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## hoppinmad (6/7/11)

not the perfect size but was the closest i had


recently bottled off some Strong Dark Belgian Ale for the winter warmer comp


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## Batz (6/7/11)

HoppinMad said:


> View attachment 46903
> not the perfect size but was the closest i had
> 
> View attachment 46904
> recently bottled off some Strong Dark Belgian Ale for the winter warmer comp




Well I'll be stuffed!
Easy as that hey? I never tried champagne bottles, sealing washers are not a problem for me....or my work anyway  
Thanks for the heads up Hoppin


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## hoppinmad (6/7/11)

Batz said:


> Well I'll be stuffed!
> Easy as that hey? I never tried champagne bottles, sealing washers are not a problem for me....or my work anyway
> Thanks for the heads up Hoppin



no worries. Try freecycle for the bottles... you may be lucky and find a pisshead who is running out of room in their recycle bin


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## Batz (6/7/11)

HoppinMad said:


> no worries. Try freecycle for the bottles... you may be lucky and find a pisshead who is running out of room in their recycle bin




The local pub would have more than I could use each week, and be more than happy to save them for me.


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## bradsbrew (6/7/11)

Florian, mate that looks better than you described. Have you sealed over BB paint on the door section? Looks great. I am still trying to figure out how to mount my CPBF onto the fridge.

Cheers Brad


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## argon (6/7/11)

HoppinMad said:


> View attachment 46903
> not the perfect size but was the closest i had
> 
> View attachment 46904
> recently bottled off some Strong Dark Belgian Ale for the winter warmer comp


Is there anything better than a strong blegian beer in a champagne bottle?

Excellent mod... Will have to get the mrs into the champers.


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## Florian (6/7/11)

Thanks heaps Hoppin, I'll have to have a looksie for those bottles, the ones I have are the real solid ones and to thick to fit into the filler, or would need a thiiick washer. Yours look like thinner bottles, probably the cheap ones, which makes sense considering your source. I'll be stuffed if that works (which it obviously does).

Brad, sealing over the lower door section would make perfectly sense, as there are already lines from dribbles and splashes. 
I assume you have that long skinny filler? Not sure how to fit it onto the fridge neatly, you might have to use a frame a la Tidal Pete/Bribie. It would at least match your tap handles h34r: h34r: h34r:


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## Batz (6/7/11)

I have mine set up like this ATM






The snap-lock fitting will fit any of my taps and I just connect the gas via a JG type fitting... You guessed it I made it around 4mm too short for a champaign bottle, I'm going to change this setting as of_ 'soon' _and fit it up differently, so anyone want my stand and snap-lock? Please have snap-lock taps first.


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## Thirsty Boy (7/7/11)

Hmm - i'll have to try some different champagne bottles with mine. i already have the spacer/washer thing installed so i can fill pet bottles with a shorter finish... But when i tried champagne bottles the necks were a little wide and didn't fit into the filler without "force". Must be just the bottles i have... I'll keep an eye out for thinner ones because my preference is to bottle in glass for long term storage/comps.

Love the permanent installations guys, mine is still on a temp set-up. How do you handle cleaning the unit after filling a bottle? My plan is to have a sprayer type party keg ful of starsan in the keggerator and just click onto that for a quick purge after filling.


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## Florian (7/7/11)

As for cleaning, I have a keg of soda water sitting in the fridge. So immediately after I filled bottles with beer I put the quick disconnect onto the soda keg and just run a bit o water through it. If I have beer and foam in the blow off tube I either fill a mini 250ml bottle until it's full and overflows or I simply hold my finger onto the white seal which has the same effect. 
Was thinking of having a permanent star San keg next to the fridge but it would get cloudy overtime anyway unless you use destilled water, and the soda is good enough for me for now. The plan is to run pbw followed by star San through it and the other beer lines when i'm cleaning kegs anyway.


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## Bribie G (7/7/11)

Can you just take the tap off a font and screw that new CPBF right on as-is or do you need some sort of adaptor?


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## Thirsty Boy (7/7/11)

Bribie G said:


> Can you just take the tap off a font and screw that new CPBF right on as-is or do you need some sort of adaptor?
> 
> View attachment 46919



If it has the right sort of fitting, yes. The filler has a thread exactly the same size as a through the fridge shaft - and i know there are fonts out there that it will screw straigth into. As a bonus, the filler has a plug on the front of it, so that if you want it permanently on a font but dont want to lose the tap space, you can just screw your old tap straight into the front of the filler and presto you can pour and fill out of the same slot on your font.

I know that for instance Keg King sells appropriate fonts for this filler, and i dont think they are particualrly non standard, so i suspect most of the retailers would have something appropriate.

Font mounting is my plan as thats what will mach my current keggerator set-up, main complication for me is how to set up selecting the different kegs without having to open the converted freezer every time. I'm tempted to change to a snaplock font sysyem like Batz, but that would involve a large rather than medium sized pile of cash.


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## argon (12/7/11)

Update on my CPBF... First time using it last night after recently installing it. It works so well. So easy to fill my bottles last night. As other have said, did it virtually single handed, sitting on a chair in front of the fridge with a beer in hand... Did 8 different beers for the upcoming BABBs comp. Was clean and easy. Hardly a drop was spilled and i know they're perfectly carbed and purged of o2.

If you're thinking of getting one... do it. Sooo much easier than trying to fill from the tap or any other less than purpose built method.

I'll certainly be looking into the champagne bottle mod, for special beers.


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## Bribie G (12/7/11)

Sounds great, I'll buy one for the State comp and maybe for the Nats if the Beer Gods smile. I used my regular CPBF last night, and even though it's on a frame / Stand it still gives a good beer shampoo if you get but one little hand movement wrong. Geez my hair is looking shiny this morning :lol:

EDIT: TB I'll be in at Ross's tomorrow and I'll check them out with his fonts (I have a triple font already) - in the flesh.


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