# Style Of The Week 27/9/06 -oktoberfest/marzen



## Stuster (27/9/06)

To celebrate the Munich Oktoberfest I thought we'd look at style 3B of the BJCP guidelines, Oktoberfest/Marzen. Of course it's not October yet but the Germans are so efficient that most of Oktoberfest is held in September. This kind of beer is not even the most commonly served at the Munich Oktoberfest anymore either, article here. Wikipedia article here.

However, let's have a look at this amber lager. What grains do you use? What hops and when? Which yeast? How long do you condition it for and how cold? Has anybody made a kit-based Oktoberfest? Which commercial beers can you recommend? Have you been to the Munich Oktoberfest and have some interesting tales to tell? This thread has some useful info and links to get you going.

Any suggestions for future Hop/Style of the week will be gratefully received.

Let's talk Oktoberfest. :beer: :chug:  



> 3B. Oktoberfest/Mrzen
> 
> Aroma: Rich German malt aroma (of Vienna and/or Munich malt). A light to moderate toasted malt aroma is often present. Clean lager aroma with no fruity esters or diacetyl. No hop aroma. Caramel aroma is inappropriate.
> 
> ...


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## jayse (27/9/06)

I'll add a one liner or two :lol: weyermann munich II is the ducks guts, don't need to use as much of it as you would in a dunkel or anything but just enough of it to get more than a idea is good.

Theres some old recipes floating around in such books as classic beer style series were they have recipes with pils malts and crystal malt I think those are way of the mark personally. Stick to the vienna and munich malts and don't overdo the crystal malt if you use any at all. Hops? anything noble and only 1/2g per litre for flavour and no aroma is enough for style but you can go more no worries. At 1/2g per litre for flavour it will only be just enough to be perceived behind the malt if your going 1.055-1.060 and using weyerman munich II in a reasonble portion. I don't mind them with just a touch extra hops coming through myself.
Bitterness is pretty straight forward around 28IBU (depending on gravity) of the same hop. Yeast? i don't have a real fave really so what ever blows your skirt up and you know will do a good job, theres plenty of choices as far as a good lager yeast goes.

Happy lateseptemberfest
Jayse


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## Dr Gonzo (27/9/06)

I worked hard all winter to get up a stock of oktoberfest for october.
Like all other beer stockpiles iv'e attempted to create, this one was hit hard early.
Fortunately i still have 2 cubes of the best conditioning in the frige. 
These babies have been lagering for at least 3 months now at 1C.
Spose i better get em into kegs pretty soon.

Weyermann Munich & Vienna malts are definately the go. No crystal.
A decoction helps bring out the best in them.
I like a Tettnanger bittering addition
Tettnanger/Saaz flavor addition
& Saaz aroma addition
Bavarian Lager & Bohemian Lager yeasts are both good.
I like to start fermentation at 8C with a big starter & never let it get over 10C.


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## Trough Lolly (27/9/06)

Ditto to the last couple of posts....this brew is one of my faves!

I've a keg of Oktoberfest that's been lagering at 1C for some time now and it's screaming out to be tapped!!! They never last long at my place.

As for hops, I tend to stick with decent dose (approx. 30 IBU) of Hallertau MF to bitter and that's that. I've deviated from the norm by doing one recently with 80g of pale choc malt and Wyeast 2000 Budvar to ferment it with and it's not bad - just a slight twang that tasted ok to me. Pils malt and crystal is not the go for these beers - as Jayse mentioned, Munich II is the grain to use.

A decent healthy starter of Wyeast 2308 makes a pretty decent Okkie, IMHO...Enjoy, it's a great beer.

TL


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## Ash in Perth (27/9/06)

This is the next beer I'm brewing.

2.5kg Munich II
1.75kg Vienna
0.5kg melanoiden
0.25kg pilsner (to get rid of it)
0.20kg caramalt

30g perle at 60 min
20g crystal at 15 min
20g saphir at 5 min (or flame out?)

about 27IBU, 1.055.

Ferment cold with WL833 (german bock)

CC for 1 month after 1 day diacetyl rest at 15DegC


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## Ross (27/9/06)

One of my favourite brews...

This one is fermenting away happily - Trying something different from my usual recipe & brewing a Ray Mills inspired recipe...

Oktoberfest/Marzen 
Type: All Grain
Date: 19/09/2006 
Batch Size: 26.00 L
Boil Size: 34.00 L 
Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.0 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.15 kg Vienna Malt (6.9 EBC) Grain 59.0 % 
1.10 kg Munich II (dark) (23.0 EBC) Grain 20.6 % 
0.55 kg Wheat Malt, (dark) (17.0 EBC) Grain 10.3 % 
0.27 kg Caramunich I (90.0 EBC) Grain 5.1 % 
0.27 kg Caramunich Malt III (150.0 EBC) Grain 5.1 % 
15.00 gm Northern Brewer [9.30%] (80 min) Hops 14.2 IBU 
25.00 gm Tettnang [4.10%] (80 min) Hops 10.5 IBU 
15.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.10%] (15 min) Hops 2.7 IBU 
25.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (1 min) Hops 0.5 IBU 
1.00 tsp Table Salt (Boil 90.0 min) Misc 
2.00 gm Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Boil 90.0 min) Misc 
3.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 
5.00 gm Calcium Carbonate (Boil 80.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs SafLager German Lager (DCL Yeast #S-189) Yeast-Lager 

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.0 % 
Bitterness: 27.9 
Est Color: 22.7 EBC 

Cheers Ross


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (27/9/06)

One of my favourite styles to brew and drink. I have one lagering atm as well, tis this season and all that bollocks!

I have used the following yeasts in the Oktoberfest brews I have made so far.

Wyeast 2308, Whitelabs 833, Wyeast 2206 and Wyeast 2633. The 833 and 2206 are my preferred yeasts for this style, the 2308 was also good but I found it less malty and the 2633 was my least favorite however still reasonable.

Grist wise is simple as people have already stated, 50% Weyermann Munich2 and 50% pils malt do the job for me. I have brewed 1/3 Pils, Vienna and Munich2 and that was good but I love the results with the first grist.

Any noble hop for me as a bittering only addition for 25IBU's. Preferences are Hallertau or Tettnanger.

My opinion for what it's worth h34r: 

C&B
TDA


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## Barry (27/9/06)

Good Day
I love this style. I have a recipe that I am really happy with at oz.craftbrewer.org/Recipes
called Oscar Oktoberfest. This year's batch went well at Bathurst if you want independant evaluation. Unfortunately only had time to make one batch this winter due to a crook back and a couple weeks of flu.
Give it a go, you won't be be sorry. (and use the San Fran yeast, a great, easy to use, forgiving yeast for any malty lager style IMHO).


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## Tony M (27/9/06)

The only problem you may have is the calender. The one I made last year in March took a good three months to reach its peak. For a long time I thought it very ordinary but was rewarded in the end. This years model I have yet to taste and I didnt start it until May.


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## Steve (27/9/06)

TDA
I have 3 kilo of munich type 2 and 3 kilo of pils and was wondering what to do with it as ive never used it before :blink: thanks
:beer: 
Steve


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## Kai (27/9/06)

Tony M said:


> The only problem you may have is the calender. The one I made last year in March took a good three months to reach its peak.




Too easy, if your oky isn't ready in time then it's a maerzen, and vice versa.


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## Voosher (27/9/06)

Kai said:


> Tony M said:
> 
> 
> > The only problem you may have is the calender. The one I made last year in March took a good three months to reach its peak.
> ...



And then of course there is the seasonal flip.
October in Germany is Autumn... equivalent of April here.
And March is Spring... 
And rules are so often made to be broken.
 
BREW. DRINK. ENJOY. Whenever.


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## Kai (27/9/06)

Is that where the vice versa comes in?


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## Voosher (27/9/06)

Kai said:


> Is that where the vice versa comes in?



Hmmmm.
I thought Maerzen meant March meaning brewed in March.
Oktoberfest... drunk in October.
Essentially the same style... with minor differences.
Could be wrong?
:huh: 
May have to argue it over pint of said brew... when it's ready... :beer:


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## Kai (28/9/06)

Voosher said:


> Hmmmm.
> I thought Maerzen meant March meaning brewed in March.
> Oktoberfest... drunk in October.
> Essentially the same style... with minor differences.
> ...



Done! I'm sure we can find a venue too.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (28/9/06)

Steve said:


> TDA
> I have 3 kilo of munich type 2 and 3 kilo of pils and was wondering what to do with it as ive never used it before :blink: thanks
> :beer:
> Steve



Steve, as long as you have the capabilities to ferment at lager temps you should be fine. Try this:

50% Pils
50% Munich 2

Aim for an OG of 1052-54. I mash at 66C. And I use rainwater, if you do it may not hurt to add some nutrients to your boil 10 minutes from the end.

Do you have some noble German hops, Tettnanger or Hall or even Magnum or Northern Brewer? If so aim for a bittering addition to give 25IBU's. Boil for 90 minutes.

And use one of those yeasts I mentioned (WL 833 or Wy 2206), dry lager yeast will not cut the mustard here. Ferment at 10 to 11C for a minimum of 2 weeks, 3 would be better. Rack beer from yeast and lager for at least 3 weeks. Place in keg, carb up and enjoy.

Not blowing my trumpet but the above method/recipe did well in the SA state comp and the Nationals last year. Just so you know it can't be that bad  

Any other assistance, don't hesitate to ask.

C&B
TDA


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## roach (28/9/06)

TDA,

What is your opinion on subbing the Wey Munich 2 for JW Dark Munich? I know the short answer would be go for the Wey Munich 2 as it will be a better beer, but will using JW Dark Munich instead, throw it completely off style and be an order of magnitude lesser beer?

I have a bag of the JW Dark Munich and heard some mixed reports if using it at up around 50% of the grain bill.

Also have some WL 833 and so might brew your award winning okky this weekend.

cheers
roach


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (28/9/06)

roach said:


> TDA,
> 
> What is your opinion on subbing the Wey Munich 2 for JW Dark Munich? I know the short answer would be go for the Wey Munich 2 as it will be a better beer, but will using JW Dark Munich instead, throw it completely off style and be an order of magnitude lesser beer?
> 
> ...


 To be honest roach I have never tried the JW Dark Munich in any beer let alone an Oktoberfest. The short answer is correct  !

Perhaps use 20 to 30% JW Dark Munich and 5 to 10% Melanoiden with the balance Pils malt? That is just a WAG but you can be the guinea pig here.

You know you wont go wrong with WL 833.

I could probably spare you 2 to 3 kilos of the Weyermann Munich 2 if you wish. I can even bring it to work tomorrow if you want to collect it?

C&B
TDA


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## roach (28/9/06)

Will do the experiment TDA and use the JW Dark, so I won't need the Munich II but cheers anyway. Will have to do a blind tasting of the Wey v JW based okky's to get a more definitive view. Especially as I know some local brewers, whose palates are tainted just by mentioning a beer has JW dark munich in it.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (23/10/06)

roach said:


> Will do the experiment TDA and use the JW Dark, so I won't need the Munich II but cheers anyway. Will have to do a blind tasting of the Wey v JW based okky's to get a more definitive view. Especially as I know some local brewers, whose palates are tainted just by mentioning a beer has JW dark munich in it.



roach, did you get this beer brewed? How is it shaping up with the JW Dark Munich?

Just tapped my Oktoberfest yesterday, tasting quite nice. Used some Hallertau for flavouring and it has come through nicely.

C&B
TDA


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## DJR (15/12/06)

Bringing up an old thread i know, but i thought i'd get everyone's idea of this Marzenbier i was thinking of brewing. It was originally a Vienna lager recipe, but i've upped the OG, colour and bitterness to suit.

OG 1052, IBU 27, Colour 25EBC estimated

Grist

10% JW Pils
68% JW Light Munich
19% Weyermann Vienna
3% Weyermann Melanoidin
+30g Carafa Special III for colour adjustment at sparge

Mash - either a two step rest at 60C for 30m and then 70C for 30m, or a decoction mash 60C to 70C with a 20m boil and 10m 72C rest in the decocted portion. The decoction is probably more authentic and won't take me much more time - maybe about 10-15 minutes in the brew.

Hops

Magnum 13% 5g 60' (7.7IBU)
Taurus 14.8% 7g 60' (12.3IBU)
Saphir 4.5% 15g 25' (5.6IBU)

Basically just a bit of hop flavour from the Saphir at 15g, the Taurus and Magnum should just give a nice clean bitterness. I really want the malt to shine through.

Yeast: WLP838 S German Lager in 2-3L starter, ferment at 8C with a 24 hour d-rest before lagering at 2-4C for a month or two.

Other ingredients: Gypsum 4.2g, Epsom 1.2g, Chalk 3g. This is to try to get closer to the Vienna hard water profile, basically the Sulphate and Carbonate are almost spot on, it's hard to get enough Ca2+ and Mg2+ cations in the water without overdoing the anions though.


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## Stuster (15/12/06)

I think it's great that you are posting your recipe to this thread, DJR. Just what I hoped. :super: 

I can't really comment on the recipe as I've never made this style. But on the water chemistry, I think there's no real reason to add those chemicals to try to emulate Vienna water. There's a great post by TomoMeier halfway down this BB thread. Adding gypsum and epsom will accentuate the hoppiness rather than the maltiness you want to bring out. If you can get hold of any food grade CaCl that might be a good idea though. (and could you get some for me too while you're at it. :lol: )


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## DJR (15/12/06)

Stuster said:


> I think it's great that you are posting your recipe to this thread, DJR. Just what I hoped. :super:
> 
> I can't really comment on the recipe as I've never made this style. But on the water chemistry, I think there's no real reason to add those chemicals to try to emulate Vienna water. There's a great post by TomoMeier halfway down this BB thread. Adding gypsum and epsom will accentuate the hoppiness rather than the maltiness you want to bring out. If you can get hold of any food grade CaCl that might be a good idea though. (and could you get some for me too while you're at it. :lol: )



Good point Stu - i have some CaCl2 on the way from NNL - they are selling 100g including postage for $3.95 on my request


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## DJR (15/12/06)

I think you're on the money Stu with that post on BB, having a read of it now i agree with the points raised, especially that the big brewers probably DONT use the specific water that comes from the tap as its many flaws make for a bad brewing practice. So i put together a quick profile in Promash i called "Malty Style" with 50ppm of Calcium and Chloride, 25ppm of Sulphate, 10ppm of Mg, 5ppm of Na and 5ppm of Carbonate. 

Looks like Sydney water (Prospect) has more than enough carbonate at 45ppm or so, and an addition of 0.6g Epsom and 1.8g of Calcium Chloride should get me to a nice water profile.

Anyway, hopefully the use of the JW malts shouldn't detract too much from the profile, the Roggenbier i did using mainly JW Light Munich malt tastes pretty good so here's hoping this one is the same. Might use a bit of Weyermann Caramunich though.


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## DarkFaerytale (13/2/07)

so... it's nearly march, well in a month or so anyway, but thought i'd get my marzen recipe underway and was hopeing for some thoughts on my recipe

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 6.70
Anticipated OG: 1.060 Plato: 14.75
Anticipated SRM: 10.2
Anticipated IBU: 24.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %
Wort Boil Time: 150 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 36.80 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.038 SG 9.39 Plato

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
49.3 3.30 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 2
22.4 1.50 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 12
22.4 1.50 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 4
3.0 0.20 kg. Weyermann Caramunich III Germany 1.037 71
3.0 0.20 kg. Weyermann Wheat Dark Germany 1.039 8

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
40.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh pellet 4.50 22.3 60 min.
12.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh pellet 4.50 1.8 15 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 2206 Bavarian Lager

after having a look at designing great beers last night i'm thinking of doing a decoction mash, it will be my first and would really like to know what people think of it (it's gonna be a long day!)

Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: 

Total Grain kg: 6.70
Total Water Qts: 14.83 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 14.03 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00
Grain Temp: 27.17 C


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 5 45 35 35 Infuse 36 14.03 2.09
2 5 45 47 47 Decoc 100 3.28 2.50 (Decoc Thickness)
3 5 60 60 60 Decoc 100 4.51 3.13 (Decoc Thickness)
4 5 30 75 75 Decoc 100 6.86 2.50 (Decoc Thickness)


Total Water Qts: 14.83 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 14.03 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume L: 18.51 - After Additional Infusions

do people think it's worth the decoction or should i do a step mash instead?

i don't know much about changing water profiles but i was going to add

1 tspn calcium carbonate in boil
1 tspntable salt in boil

to make the water a little harder

any coments would be greatly appretiated

cheers
-Phill


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## Dr Gonzo (13/2/07)

DarkFaerytale,

Go the decoction, but make it easy on yourself.
By the look of your recipe you plan on doing a triple decoction with acid & protein rests.
With the malts you are using this is unneccessary.
Just go for a single and save yourself a couple of hours.

Mash in for 55C rest. 
Pull the grain for the decoction after about 5 min.
Raise decoction to 68-70C and rest 15 min.
Boil for 15 min.
Aim for 66-67C rest after returning the decoction.
Mash out with an infusion, or just sparge with no mashout.

Hope this helps


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## tangent (13/2/07)

one day you're going to have a kid and call it "decoction" Sam


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## DarkFaerytale (13/2/07)

thank you Dr Gonzo, i thought it was a bit overboard, i'll keep reading more on decoction befor i do it.

-Phill


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## Tony (13/2/07)

Dr Gonzo said:


> DarkFaerytale,
> 
> Go the decoction, but make it easy on yourself.
> By the look of your recipe you plan on doing a triple decoction with acid & protein rests.
> ...





Thats exactly what i do, except i mash in for 52 deg.

I will be brewing a marzen in march for sure.

am going to brew a light pilsner forst to get the yeasties working and then its on

I even have my 1 liter steins waiting patiently 

here is what i have planned

oktoberfest 2

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 54.00 Wort Size (L): 54.00
Total Grain (kg): 12.00
Anticipated OG: 1.056 Plato: 13.83
Anticipated EBC: 17.4
Anticipated IBU: 26.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
41.7 5.00 kg. IMC Pilsner Australia 1.038 3
25.0 3.00 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 7
25.0 3.00 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
4.2 0.50 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 24
3.3 0.40 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 100
0.8 0.10 kg. Weyermann Caraaroma Germany 1.034 350

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.40 4.7 45 min.
30.00 g. Saphire Pellet 4.50 6.2 45 min.
30.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 6.2 45 min.
30.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.40 2.5 15 min.
30.00 g. Saphire Pellet 4.50 3.3 15 min.
30.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 3.3 15 min.
30.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.40 0.0 0 min.
30.00 g. Saphire Pellet 4.50 0.0 0 min.
30.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 0.0 0 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.20 Oz Irish Moss Fining 10 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP850 Copenhagen Lager


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: pilsner Mash Double Decoction

Total Grain kg: 12.00
Total Water Qts: 38.04 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 36.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.15
Grain Temp: 20.50 C


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Protein rest 5 30 52 51 Infuse 57 36.00 3.00
Mash 30 60 66 65 Decoc 99 14.10 2.00 (Decoc Thickness)
mash out 30 10 71 71 Decoc 99 7.24 3.00 (Decoc Thickness)


Total Water Qts: 38.04 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 36.00 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume L: 44.01 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.
All infusion amounts are in Liters.
All infusion ratios are Liters/Kilograms.

Step Time for Decoction Steps represent how far back in time the Decoction was pulled.
Infusion amounts for Decoction Steps represent the amount pulled for the Decoction.
Infusion ratios for Decoction Steps represent the Decoction Thickness.


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## blackbock (11/2/09)

I had some interesting feedback on a beer that I entered into a local show beer competition just last weekend (this year they had real judges!) under the 'lager' category (only had 5 classes...) My 'Oktoberfest 08' beer certainly looked different to the other pale lagers entered, and according to one judge it resembled a 'nice scottish ale.' As weird as that might sound, there are a number of similarities, and apart from the fact that I possibly overdid the caramalt:

* long cold fermentation (particularly so in the lager case...)
* similar colour
* similar hopping
* malty
* long boil time, leading to some kettle caramelisation

As a consequence of the last point, I am wondering why 'caramel' like flavours are deemed inappropriate in an Oktoberfest?

The three judges also couldn't make up their mind whether the finish was 'sweet', 'well-balanced' or 'dry.' Personally I thought it was fairly dry. My beer was judged as 'too full of flavour for a lager.'

I guess next time I will make a kit beer with dextrose for that class..


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## pmolou (23/2/09)

theres some tasty lokking recipes here but what about an extract brew,
I have an Ayinger Marzen clone from clone brews but it contains no melanoiden which i thought would be essential (PS. can that be steeped)
any idea's, Also i'm looking at a Wyeast I thought the Oktoberfest yeast would be the go but i've been told the bavarian lager is better

Anyhelp would be great I'm shooting for 23-25 IBU's 5-6% ABV
only bittering hops
caramunich
caraRed
Melanoiden
small portion of munich 
but the amounts i'm not sure of as i've never used melanoiden or munich


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## pmolou (26/2/09)

anyone


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## therook (26/2/09)

pmolou said:


> anyone




I done an Occy last year and it was loved by everyone

3.35 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (8.0 EBC) Grain 54.9 % 
2.75 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (22.0 EBC) Grain 45.1 % 
60.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.70%] (60 min) Hops 22.3 IBU 
20.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.70%] (15 min) Hops 3.7 IBU 
1.00 tsp Calcium Chloride (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833) 

Yeast kindly donated by TDA

Rook


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## pmolou (26/2/09)

yer that does look good but i'm looking for an extract brew in particular..
As the predominant grain bill sare of vienna munich or pilsner i'm not sure what to sub for extract


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## bconnery (26/2/09)

pmolou said:


> theres some tasty lokking recipes here but what about an extract brew,
> I have an Ayinger Marzen clone from clone brews but it contains no melanoiden which i thought would be essential (PS. can that be steeped)
> any idea's, Also i'm looking at a Wyeast I thought the Oktoberfest yeast would be the go but i've been told the bavarian lager is better
> 
> ...


pmlou, 
caramunich and melanoiden can both be steeped, but you'll need to mash munich. 
If you haven't done a minimash it isn't hard, it's really just a temperature controlled steep. 
I used to go for 2.5L of water per kilo of grain, keep them around 65ish for 60 minutes. 
Then 'sparge' by rinsing with water that is around 75C, using a similar amount of water. 
You could easily add 1kg of munich. 
If you take a recipe on here that has simliar grains to yours, put 1kg munich and some melanoiden and perhaps caramunich, can't give you amounts right now but it shouldn't hard to find a recipe with some guidelines, then the rest extract, bitter with noble hops and a good german yeast and you are away...


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## A3k (27/2/09)

I wouldn't mind making one of these in March aswell. Good time to make my first Oktoberfest/Mrzen. What would the Wyeast 2000 Budvar be like in this. Ive got a pilsner fermenting with it at the moment and was wondering if I could use that yeast or should I get something more appropriate to an Oktoberfest such as one of these: Im guessing 2633 
2124 - Bohemian Lager
2206 - Bavarian Lager
2308 - Munich Lager
2633 - Octoberfest Lager Blend

Im guessing the Hop Character and subtle fruit that the yeast imparts may be out of style for the Oktoberfest.

Wyeast 2000:
Nice malty nose, subtle fruit. Rich malt profile on palate. Finishes malty but dry, well balanced, crisp. Hop character comes through in finish. 

-------------
Ive got way too many things in my to brew list at the moment.


Cheers
Al


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## SJW (27/2/09)

2124 has done a great job for me in the past. I think with this style picking the yeast is the easiest part. Its a balancing act between hop bitterness and the malt. Everything needs to be perfect. A very hards style for the Homebrewer to get spot on. For me anyway.

Steve


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## jonocarroll (27/2/09)

> 2633 - Octoberfest Lager Blend


Early, I know, but I've just done an all-grain batch with this yeast. By "just", I mean I bottled it earlier this week. 4 weeks total in the fermenter. Sample just prior to bottling was enough to make me want to open them now. Bloody marvelous! I was keen to take a few more 'samples' but decided the anticipation was good where it was.

Once it's ready, I'll be looking for opinions, so A3k - you're welcome to try some.

Back to my point - I've got a few PET bottles of washed 2633 if you'd like to trade for a bottle of something decent. I've not had a failure restarting any of my washed yeasts just yet.


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## A3k (27/2/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Once it's ready, I'll be looking for opinions, so A3k - you're welcome to try some.
> 
> Back to my point - I've got a few PET bottles of washed 2633 if you'd like to trade for a bottle of something decent. I've not had a failure restarting any of my washed yeasts just yet.




Cool, cheers fellas. I think the 2633 would be a good option. 

QB, Ill PM you about a potential swap and a taste test.

As 2633 is a blend of yeasts, will the ratios of the yeasts change for second gen? 

Cheers
al


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## jonocarroll (27/2/09)

A3k said:


> As 2633 is a blend of yeasts, will the ratios of the yeasts change for second gen?


FIIK. Don't know much about this problem, and never really thought about that. Sorry. I can't imagine the balance would differ too greatly. It would be conceivable over many generations, but I'd be surprised if there was much difference just yet. Guess I'll have to brew another and find out :chug:


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## pmolou (27/2/09)

got my recipe sorted i think 

Moloughneys Oktoberfest (20litre)

3kg DME
0.23kg CaraMunich
0.23 Munich II Weyerman
0.15 Melanoiden MAlt

40g Hallertau

Oktoberfest Blend 2633

Cant wait to brew it, just wish it was colder dont have a fermentation fridge  

PS any tips loosely based of an Ayinger clone recipe


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## A3k (27/2/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> FIIK. Don't know much about this problem, and never really thought about that. Sorry. I can't imagine the balance would differ too greatly. It would be conceivable over many generations, but I'd be surprised if there was much difference just yet. Guess I'll have to brew another and find out :chug:



I'm sure it won't be ab problem. Just curious. Would be more than willing to give it a try.
i sent that PM. first try didn't work for some reason.


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## brettprevans (2/6/09)

Im using up some bits and pieces to get rid of the last of my extract gear so....

*The Hunt for Brown October*
oktoberfest/marzen

1kg Light Liquid Malt
1kg Morgans Caramalt. 
1kg Morgans Dark Crystal Malt
0.500kg Wheat Malt
0.300kg Munich II 
0.300kg Weyermann Vienna
0.100kg Melanoiden
70g Hallertau Hop Pellets. 
80g Tettnanger hop Pellets 
Yeast - 34/70
22L

Hallertau 50g @ 60
Tettnanger 30g @ 30.
Hallertau 20 @ 5
Tettnanger 50g @ 5


thoughts?

edit: yes its a slightly overly complex ingredients bill


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## marlow_coates (2/6/09)

Don't know much about the style and don't have too much memory of how they taste, but is 1kg of crystal going to leave it a bit sweet?

Or is this something you are aiming for?


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## brettprevans (2/6/09)

the morgan dark malt should be 60% dark crystal malt grain and 40% Vienna malt grain, so i was thinking it shouldnt be too bad. I havent plugged the figures into the rDB yet so im not sure about IBU. might need a little more hop bitterness/flavour. 

Im also aiming to making a more traditional octoberfest beer not the newer fancypants pale octoberfest.


edit: after plugging it into the rDB, its 55IBU. hmmm too high me thinks. will have to cut back. its also a tad dark (50ECU) and a tad light on %alc.

edit: was going to change yeast to wyeast octoberfest but CB is out of stock.


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## technobabble66 (5/5/17)

A quick BJCP 2015 update:

6A. Märzen



[SIZE=9pt]Overall Impression: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]An elegant, malty German amber lager with a clean, rich, toasty and bready malt flavor, restrained bitterness, and a dry finish that encourages another drink. The overall malt impression is soft, elegant, and complex, with a rich aftertaste that is never cloying or heavy. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Aroma: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Moderate intensity aroma of German malt, typically rich, bready, somewhat toasty, with light bread crust notes. Clean lager fermentation character. No hop aroma. Caramel, dry-biscuity, or roasted malt aromas inappropriate. Very light alcohol might be detected, but should never be sharp. Clean, elegant malt richness should be the primary aroma. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Appearance: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Amber-orange to deep reddish-copper color; should not be golden. Bright clarity, with persistent, off-white foam stand. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Flavor: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Initial malt flavor often suggests sweetness, but finish is moderately-dry to dry. Distinctive and complex maltiness often includes a bready, toasty aspect. Hop bitterness is moderate, and the hop flavor is low to none (German types: complex, floral, herbal, or spicy). Hops provide sufficient balance that the malty palate and finish do not seem sweet. The aftertaste is malty, with the same elegant, rich malt flavors lingering. Noticeable caramel, biscuit, or roasted flavors are inappropriate. Clean lager fermentation profile. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Mouthfeel: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Medium body, with a smooth, creamy texture that often suggests a fuller mouthfeel. Medium carbonation. Fully attenuated, without a sweet or cloying impression. May be slightly warming, but the strength should be relatively hidden. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Comments: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Modern domestic German Oktoberfest versions are golden – see the [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Festbier [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]style for this version. Export German versions (to the United States, at least) are typically orange-amber in color, have a distinctive toasty malt character, and are most often labeled [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Oktoberfest[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]. American craft versions of Oktoberfest are generally based on this style, and most Americans will recognize this beer as [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Oktoberfest[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]. Historic versions of the beer tended to be darker, towards the brown color range, but there have been many ‘shades’ of Märzen (when the name is used as a strength); this style description specifically refers to the stronger amber lager version. The modern [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Festbier [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]can be thought of as a pale Märzen by these terms. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]History: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]As the name suggests, brewed as a stronger “March beer” in March and lagered in cold caves over the summer. Modern versions trace back to the lager developed by Spaten in 1841, contemporaneous to the development of Vienna lager. However, the Märzen name is much older than 1841; the early ones were dark brown, and in Austria the name implied a strength band (14 °P) rather than a style. The German amber lager version (in the Viennese style of the time) was first served [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]at Oktoberfest in 1872, a tradition that lasted until 1990 when the golden [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Festbier [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]was adopted as the standard festival beer.[/SIZE]



[SIZE=9pt]Characteristic Ingredients: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Grist varies, although traditional German versions emphasized Munich malt. The notion of elegance is derived from the finest quality ingredients, particularly the base malts. A decoction mash was traditionally used to develop the rich malt profile. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Style Comparison: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Not as strong and rich as a Dunkles Bock. More malt depth and richness than a Festbier, with a heavier body and slightly less hops. Less hoppy and equally malty as a Czech Amber Lager. [/SIZE]




[SIZE=10pt]10 BJCP Beer Style Guidelines – 2015 Edition [/SIZE]





[SIZE=9pt]Vital Statistics: [/SIZE]
OG: 1.054 – 1.060 
FG: 1.010 – 1.014




[SIZE=9pt]ABV: 5.8 – 6.3% [/SIZE]
IBUs: 18 – 24 
SRM: 8 - 17 
EBC: 15.8 - 33.5







[SIZE=9pt]Commercial Examples: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Buergerliches Ur-Saalfelder, [/SIZE]Hacker-Pschorr Original Oktoberfest, Paulaner Oktoberfest, Weltenburg Kloster Anno 1050
[SIZE=9pt]Tags: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]standard-strength, amber-color, bottom-fermented, lagered, central-europe, traditional-style, amber-lager-family, malty[/SIZE]


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## technobabble66 (5/5/17)

I'm looking to have a crack at a Marzen. Not really tried many, or any really, so i'm kind of flying blind.
But i'm keen to produce a (very) malty lager that's clean and moderately dry with bready/toasty elements, at ~5.5% alc. That seems to basically be a Marzen, so here we are!

The basic recipe is:

23L
OG=1.054
FG=1.012
IBU=20.6
EBC=21.3
Alc=5.8%

60% Viking Munich (** German (& Munich 2) would be best, but this is what i have)
30% Viking Vienna (ditto)
5% Biscuit (Ding)
4% Melanoiden (Wey)
1% Acidulated (Glad)

20g Tettanger (4.8%AA) + 5g Saaz (4.6%AA) @ FWH
5g Tettanger + 20g Saaz @20mins (in cube)

Probably do: 55/63/68/72/78 for 5/20/50/20/2, with a salt ratio favouring CaCl2

Ferment with S-189 at ~16°
----------------------------------------

Ok.
A few questions spring to mind:
1) Lots of reading seems to indicate Vienna (with Munich) will produce the malty, bready, toasty finish i'm after, though many use pilsner as well for Marzens. Any thoughts on how the Vienna will work compared to the Pilsner?
2) How do the overall ratios of Munich to Vienna to specs look?
3) The choice of Biscuit or Aromatic, or both? I know i have a tendency to add too many malts, which is why i've left the aromatic out. However, half of me thinks biscuit will add the desired toasty element, whereas the other half is thinking the general maltiness of the aromatic will be awesome as well.

*Thoughts would be most appreciated, especially from those who've brewed Marzens/Festbiers or Vienna lagers.*


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## technobabble66 (25/5/17)

Sooooooo ... no-one's brewed a Marzen? 

Still debating whether to reduce the Biscuit & Melanoiden a little, whether to use any crystal, and whether to alter the Munich:Vienna ratio or swap the Vienna to pilsner.
Any ideas on what's worked for others?
Oh, and i've discovered i don't need the Acidulated, so i swapped that to Aromatic. (yes, manticle, I have a problem :blush: )


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## manticle (25/5/17)

Forgetting the tiny amount of spec, I use 50% pils, 25/25 vienna/munich for alts and it's maltier than malt dick mcmalt, the winner of last year's malty man contest.

**** the melanoiden - decoct or die.


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## technobabble66 (25/5/17)

Great. Thanks for that suggestion, mants. Appreciated!

Out of interest, what do you think the Vienna brings to the result, rather than simply a Pils+Munich combo?

Yeah, i was thinking to simplify the process by avoiding the decoction and using a bit of Melanoiden instead (Brulosophy told me i that's ok! :huh: ). But the brew nerd in me will decoct it anyway, so it's probably not necessary .......... or if i did both, it'd be even more malty .... :unsure: ...

I've been really impressed with the effect of biscuit & Aromatic recently, so i'm struggling to not use those (in everything!).


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## manticle (25/5/17)

Biscuit and aromatic combo is nice but small amounts.

For me, vienna is soft but biscuity, munich is bread and bread crust. Combo works as well as biscuit and aromatic and for the same reason - similar but different.


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## technobabble66 (25/5/17)

Alrighty! Saves me a few brews of experimentation.
Thanks again.


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## technobabble66 (26/5/17)

After Manticle's comments, i think i'll now go with:
30% each of Pils, Vienna & Munich
5% Biscuit
2% each of Aromatic & Melanoiden (i have 4kg to get through! and i'll double it up with a decoction as well)

Everything else (hops schedule, salts, ~ targeted stats) remain the same.

Melanoiden might be overkill, and biscuit might be a little high. I also reduced the Munich as i started to get a little concerned with how it might affect sweetness at such a high level.
Having said that, i'd be curious to see how my original proposed recipe would've worked. But this is a starting point - i'm hoping for something a bit maltier than Malty McMaltface, with a nice biscuity edge to it. Hope to brew it over the next week.


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## manticle (26/5/17)

As I said, my 50 pils, 25/25 munich/vienna is for alt, so I'd be inclined to increase the pils and lower the other bases.

Yes you want malty but not malteser.


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## Randai (26/5/17)

I did a marzen/oktoberfest that was 50% pils and 50% munich 2. Very malty and rich, but honestly I think the yeast I used really made it crisp, it was the mangrove jacks bohemian lager yeast. So I think if you dry it out and you like malty you can really bump it up.


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