# Mash Hopping



## big d (3/2/04)

heres an interesting way to hop your brew that i came across on the net last night.
for ag brewers you add x amount of your hops in the mash and continue as per your schedule.
the jurys out on this one but it apparently gives great aroma.

anyone tried this method before?

cheers
big d


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## Gout (3/2/04)

i would have thought it would be lost in the boil?

is this first wort hopping?


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## GMK (3/2/04)

Ben said:


> i would have thought it would be lost in the boil?
> 
> is this first wort hopping?


 First Wort Hopping is where you add the hops to the kettle before the rolling boil starts.....

Hence, they are in there longer before the 60 or 90 min boil starts...

This is supposed to produce a more rounded better hopped beer - not necessarily more bitter.

Hope this helps.


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## big d (3/2/04)

the article did make reference to first wort hopping as well as mash hopping.
to different ways.will do some more web searching tonight.
it doesnt make scence to me as i dont know how it would maintain aroma through the boil but there ya go.on a usa beer site

cheers
big d


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## big d (4/2/04)

heres a good article i found

http://www.paddockwood.com/guide_mash_hopping_sedam.html

cheers
big d


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## RobW (4/2/04)

Apparently the hop aromatic oils react in such a way that the chemical bond is preserved during the boil & the flavour & aroma is maintained. It relates to the different pH & temperature of the mash compared with the boil.


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## Gout (4/2/04)

has it worked for anyone? would it then be lost during the fermentation? similar to 1min hops in the boil i find that dry hops are much stronger as they dont go through all of this.

I might try some cones in the pilsner to see if it works, but i will still hop as per normal so it will be hard to tell if it works or is a waste. Cant risk a aromaless pilsner


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## Andrew Clark (4/2/04)

I have mash hopped an IPA that turned out great, mash hopping gives a smoothness to the bittering that is really quite surprising, and the aroma is fantastic. I think yhat mash hopping would be best suited to High ibu beers.

India Pale Ale
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 1/11/2003 
Style: India Pale Ale Brewer: Andrew Clark 
Batch Size: 26.00 L Assistant Brewer: 
Boil Volume: 32.31 L Boil Time: 60 min 
Equipment: Andrew's Mash Equipment Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 % 

Taste Rating (50 possible points): 46.0
Beautiful hop/malt profile. Smooth bitterness and hop flavour from the mash hopping. Fantastic IPA.

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.00 kg Pale Ale Malt (5 EBC) Grain 77.5 % 
1.00 kg Munich Malt (14 EBC) Grain 15.5 % 
0.45 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (4 EBC) Grain 7.0 % 
30.00 gm Super Alpha [13.0%] (60 min) Hops 36.4 IBU 
20.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [10.0%] (60 min) Hops 18.7 IBU 
25.00 gm Hallertauer [9.0%] (60 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 4.2 IBU 
45.00 gm Fuggles [4.5%] (60 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 3.8 IBU 
0.28 items Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [Starter 1000 ml] Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.055 SG (1.050-1.075 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG 
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.013 SG (1.012-1.016 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG 
Estimated Color: 11 EBC (16-28 EBC) Color [Color] 
Bitterness: 63.1 IBU (40.0-65.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 5.2 AAU 
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.4 % (5.0-7.8 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 5.5 % 
Actual Calories per 12 oz: 172 cal 


Mash Profile Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out Mash Tun Weight: 3.50 kg 
Mash Grain Weight: 6.45 kg Mash PH: 5.4 PH 
Grain Temperature: 22.2 C Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C 
Sparge Water: 22.95 L Adjust Temp for Equipment: No 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 16.82 L of water at 74.4 C 67.8 C 60 min 


Mash Notes
Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2) Carbonation Volumes: 2.4 (1.6-2.4 vols) 
Estimated Pressure: 86.8 KPA Kegging Temperature: 6.0 C 
Pressure Used: - Age for: 4.0 Weeks 
Storage Temperature: 11.1 C 


Notes
First time mash hopping good extraction and efficiency. Mash smelt wonderful with the hops in it.


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## Linz (4/2/04)

Now I'm confused.....


Mash hop = hops in mash tun with grains for 90 mins at 66oC for 90 mins.........and 

First wort Hopping = hops into boiler with wort before rolling boil starts...


OR are both the same???!!!

Do they give the SAME effect or different effect??


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (5/2/04)

Linz said:


> Now I'm confused.....
> 
> 
> Mash hop = hops in mash tun with grains for 90 mins at 66oC for 90 mins.........and
> ...


 Linz, FWH is where you add the hops (around 30% of total) to the kettle and then run your mash liquor into the kettle. Thgen sparge liquor and boil as normalI tried it once but overdid it with 75 grams of Hallertau FWH in a Dortmunder :blink: . It didn't have a great effect on aroma but flavour wise it was good. I will try it again one day but I am very happy with the utilization, flavour and aroma I get with normal additions at 60min, 20min, 10min and flameout.

Mash hopping I haven't tried but yes, you have the process correct.

Hope this of some help

Cheers and bollocks
TDA


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## SteveSA (6/2/04)

TDA,
When you did your FWH Dortmunder did you use any other hop additions after the FWH?
Can you post hop schedule if it's handy?

Steve


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (6/2/04)

SteveSA said:


> TDA,
> When you did your FWH Dortmunder did you use any other hop additions after the FWH?
> Can you post hop schedule if it's handy?
> 
> Steve


 SteveSA, that was my hop schedule. 75 grams Hallertau (2.9%AA).
I had a brain fade when I did this :huh: , I was only going to use 30g FWH and add the rest at the 60 minute boil stage. IIRC I was looking after daughter number 3 that day so my mind wasn't completely on the job at hand  .BTW I used plugs which means utilization is somewhat less (around 20%). It was still good flavour but just a bit to harsh in bitterness.
Are you planning to brew a Dortmunder?

Cheers and bollocks
TDA


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## SteveSA (6/2/04)

TDA
I take my hat off to you. 3 daughters and time to brew!

Not a Dortmunder but I plan on experimenting with FWH and posting the results. Initially with pale ales and later pilsners in winter.

I've read bits and pieces about it but it's always good to hear about first hand experiences. Yours sounds like a good place to start.

Regards
Steve


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## nonicman (22/3/05)

Has anyone been mash hopping lately? On the weekend I put down two Pilsner style beers using mash hopping. 

On the article linked by Big D above, the author advises that mash hopping imparts little to no bittering, yet Andrew comments on the bittering properties and Pro Mash scores the IBUs highly for a mash hop additions.

It will be a number of weeks or more before I get to try the results, so was wondering what other peoples experiences were.



PS, to use the search function, don't bother with the seach box but use the search page and check the radio button that orders the posts by most relevant, then it works well.


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## AndrewQLD (22/3/05)

Nonicman,

Typically, mash hopping will only contribute about 25% of the bitterness compared to the normal 60 min boil hopping schedule. If you have a good look at the recipe above you will see that 45 gr of 4.5%aa hops will only give about 4% IBUs to the beer. I might not have been very clear in my comments, I was refering to the flavour more so than actual bitterness.
The fuggles added to the mash seemed to give a smoother and more mellow hop flavour to the beer compared to the same recipe without the mash hopping.

hope this helps

Andrew


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## nonicman (22/3/05)

Thanks Andrew, maybe I need to adjust the pro mash settings (hopefully it can be) as it was only taking 30% off the IBU count for the mash hops.

Additional Utilization Used For Mash Hoppings: -30 %

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
60.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 2.80 17.8 Mash H
70.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 2.80 26.9 60 min.


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## Tony M (23/3/05)

I did a mash hop last Oct. following the guidelines in that article that D referred to. I only added the 1.5X qty of the flavouring hops (40gm. Hallertau) to the mash The results were very good with the flavour profile of the hops changing quite distinctively. As I am totally incompetent when describing flavours I can say no more except that it was a very agreeable drop


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## Dunkel_Boy (23/3/05)

Excuse my descriptions here, I'm not being very concise unfortunately.
I think hops behave a little like grains, with the diastatic power. You can mash grains at 60C and you'll get a completely different result to if you mash them at 67C, but mashing at 67C after you mash at 60C (assuming 90 minute mashes both times) will deviate very little from just mashing at 60C. I think it's similar with the hops... if you have them sitting in wort for 60-90-120 minutes, the "opportunity" to impart bitterness on the wort is basically lost... it's hard to explain, but I think it's right, and explains 50/25% bitterness with FWH/mash hopping.


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## pint of lager (23/3/05)

Just to clarify for Dunkel Boy:
In mash hopping, the hops are not exposed to boiling wort.
In FWH the hops are exposed to boiling wort. The bittering component of the hops is utilized. 



Thanks for the suggestion of mash hopping. 

I use FWH with low alpha hops regularly, about 30% of the total of the bittering hops gets used for FWH.

With mash hopping, do people find any difference using high AA hops compared to low AA rated hops?


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## Gulf Brewery (23/3/05)

Dunkel_Boy said:


> but mashing at 67C after you mash at 60C (assuming 90 minute mashes both times) will deviate very little from just mashing at 60C. I think it's similar with the hops... if you have them sitting in wort for 60-90-120 minutes, the "opportunity" to impart bitterness on the wort is basically lost... it's hard to explain, but I think it's right, and explains 50/25% bitterness with FWH/mash hopping.
> [post="50357"][/post]​



Dunkel_Boy

I think you are a bit off track here. 
Lets start with diastatic power - this is only part of the equation. The enzymes convert the starch to sugars and they act best in different temperature ranges - alpha amylase 65 to 70C, beta amylase 55 to 60C. These act differently on the starch chains, so mashing at 60 then 67 for 90 minutes at each temperature will make a difference. 

With hops the bitterness is imparted from the isomeration of the oils from the hops. These need to be released and moved about in the kettle for best utilisation. It really comes down to how much of the oils are/can be released in mash hopping so that they can be broken down in the kettle. FWH is different in that the all of the oils are released into the kettle and acted on in the kettle, but the perceived bitterness is changed. 

Cheers
Pedro


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## Dunkel_Boy (23/3/05)

Alright, you looked far too deeply into what I was saying, but thankyou for the correction nonetheless.
Practical experience says that mashing at 67 after 60 gets those extra fermentables out, it was unfortunately a bad example. I was trying to say that you can't unboil hops basically... if you boil for 60 minutes, you can't give the same IBU contribution as 20 minute boil. I believe that mash hopping, and first wort hopping, both essentially release their oils early on (contributing to flavour) and so boiling has little effect.
I just didn't know how to word it properly, but Pedro gave a good answer.

EDIT: Finally got the wording. Mashing at 60 then 67 for 90 minutes each has a different effect to just mashing at 67 for 180 minutes... you could say the majority of starches have been converted during the 60C stage, so the 67 doesn't have as much effect. If I'm still wrong, fine.


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## nonicman (23/3/05)

> A reason to believe this theory is found in Jean DeClerck's classic Textbook of Brewing (1957). DeClerck states that hop aromatic oils form chemical bonds at higher pH values and lower temps than found in boiling wort. The bonds which are formed are not broken during the boil; hence the permanent aromatic profile. DeClerck even suggested steeping hops in warm water. So the mash provides an attractive temperature and pH profile to allow the hop aromatic oils to form permanent bonds and making them less volatile. Even the eventual boil of the wort isn't enough to drive off the aromas. Again, this is my theory that seems to have a toehold in previous scientific observation. But this is far from the definitive answer.


quote from: article Big D linked to in his post

The mash ph and temp have an effect on the oils extracted from the hops, as opposed the environment of the rolling boil.

Very keen to try POL suggestion of high alpha hops, but I'm locked in to the low alpha hops for a while (just had 500gm of EKG and another 500gm of fuggles delivered).


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## nonicman (5/4/05)

Just transferred my first mash hopped pilsner to keg. The aroma is incredible.


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## jayse (6/4/05)

Good morning mash hoppers,
I don't have anything to add but heres a thread some of you might like to read.

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi


Jayse


EDIT: Sorry can't link to the thread directly. look for thread titled MH and FWH Utilization


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## sluggerdog (15/7/06)

Just completed my first brew in two months and thought I would give this a crack so I did the following (german pils)


50.00 gm Hallertauer [4.10%] (60 min) Hops 27.8 IBU 
40.00 gm Hallertauer [4.10%] (75 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 4.7 IBU 

20 Litre Batch
32.5 IBU


Now the question I do have for the regular mash hoppers is, how do you feel the mash hopping effects the flavour.

For example, mash hopping with say 40 grams vs 40 grams added at the 20 min stage of a boil.

??

Thanx!


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## Voosher (17/7/06)

slugger,
There's a few Mash hop brews down or planned at the moment to get a feel for it's effect on bitterness and flavour.
This thread is one of them and includes a link to a thread I started as well...
More Mash Hop threads

Mine's just been racked to condition. It tasted quite smooth hopwise... almost tame!

More later.

Cheers.


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## beers (17/7/06)

Dunkel_Boy said:


> EDIT: Finally got the wording. Mashing at 60 then 67 for 90 minutes each has a different effect to just mashing at 67 for 180 minutes... you could say the majority of starches have been converted during the 60C stage, so the 67 doesn't have as much effect. If I'm still wrong, fine.



I tend to agree with you Dunkel Boy. After Mash hopping (&FWHing) many beers I've come to the conclusion that, much like brewhouse effiency %'s differ, that the amount of bitterness/aroma extracted when MHing (&FWHing) varies depending on one's setup, processes, & methods.


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