# Home Brew Taste



## birusuki (22/10/10)

So I cracked a bottle last night 10 days after bottling, I know its early.........
While I`m quite happy with it, but at the same time a little dissapointed.
I Used to brew in my larakin days. straight kit and white sugar, didnt do anything about temp
control, and was happy with the results.
this time round after a bit of reading on here and other places I used other ingredients
for the first time for me:

black rock nut brown ale
1kg LME
500gm corn sugar
bittering hopps
aroma hopps
yeast .....58

great colour, nice smell. first taste very home brewish, like my old days (above).
halfway throughthe long neck I quite enjoyed it. Have one in the fridge for when I get home tonight.
But will leave the rest at least amonth.
how much better will it taste if left for a few months?

To be rid of the home brew taste what should be done?
or does that require getting away from kits and into grains?

cheers.


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## MarkBastard (22/10/10)

I have never done a kit I've been happy with. Done plenty of extracts I've been happy with. I reckon it's isohops.


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## DU99 (22/10/10)

what hops did you use..they make a difference..


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## Lecterfan (22/10/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I have never done a kit I've been happy with. Done plenty of extracts I've been happy with. I reckon it's isohops.




I _sort of _agree with that (as far as my brews go that is!), but I also found that a kit beer will significantly improve in the bottle after a minimum of 8 weeks. Extracts and partials were generally excellent by 6 weeks (when compared to Kits), and I am so new to AG that none of them have lasted to 8 weeks yet haha.

Seriously though, I have done a few K+K type arrangements that I really liked, and depending on the hops some of them were great at 3 months, some at 6 months. If it's no good at 6 months it never will be (at least that was my experience).

Time and patience buddy...you WILL make a nice beer. :icon_cheers:


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## DU99 (22/10/10)

also look around for brew club..they help alot...


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## hoppinmad (22/10/10)

monchan said:


> To be rid of the home brew taste what should be done?
> or does that require getting away from kits and into grains?
> 
> cheers.



my 2c is that the home brew taste comes from the canned liquid malt extract (ie. the kit plus the 1kg LME).

Anything with liquid in it will degrade more quickly than dried form (think dried chicken soup vs liquid chicken soup.... dried fruit v fresh fruit, etc) which will contribute to "funny flavours". I have always had much greater success with dry malt extract than liquid malt extract.

Maybe give DME a try next time.


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## birusuki (22/10/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I have never done a kit I've been happy with. Done plenty of extracts I've been happy with. I reckon it's isohops.




Can you explain extracts simply for me, I`ll search some and maybe give it
a go if its not too dounting.

Du99. not sure what the hops were they came together not labled in one kit.
brew club........Live in the boonies in japan buy everything from the net.

Hoppinmad, dry malt. Got a kg ready to go, will be in my next brew.

cheers guys


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## slimygreen (22/10/10)

Hi Monchan, i'm pretty new to this as well, drinking my 8th brew of K&K style (+cystral malts) at the moment but i can say i have noticed incremental improvements from the following:

1. Read the book "how to brew" - it is well worth it. really good on the techniques, hows and whys.


2. don't be too quick to bottle - just because the gravity is down doesn't mean the yeast aren't still operating and cleaning up the less enjoyable biproducts of fermentation. let the yeast do what it needs to do - people are overly scared of infections, you shouldn't worry just sanitise with quality stuff - i recommend starsan or saniclean made by "five star". no rinse required and can be put in a squirt bottle and squirted everywhere! i leave mine an extra week in the fermenter without issues.

3. Use highly floccullent yeast, finings or cold conditioning in a secondary fermenter - less in the bottom of your bottles seems to make a difference.

4. Don't aerate your brew when it is still hot, let it cool to <30deg before putting into the fermenter. otherwise you can oxidise the sugars. also if transferring between primary, secondary or bulk primer containers, keep splashing to a minimum.

5. Try subbing in some crystal or other malts that only require steeping for 1/2hr - this makes a big difference and doesn't take much more time. I also use LDME instead of dextrose unless i need to bring up the O.G. to the required level.

6. Use unhopped malt extracts and hop yourself - i've resently tried a few from the Morgans range - managed a ripper Oktoberfest. also dry hop some aromatic hops.

7. Throw away the yeast that comes with the kit and buy some real yeast.

8. i drink them after 4 weeks but notice a big difference after 6 weeks in the bottle, even after a week in the secondary fermenter before drinking - 8-10 will see further improvements. also, fidge conditioning seems to improve them as well after the initial bottle conditioning - just keep the fridge stocked and drink the one that have been in there the longest.

Hope this helps, i'm sure someone will come in with a different opinion shortly to help confuse you. I'm interrested that so many people think all gain is the only way to go - maybe i'll get there soon.


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## Thunderlips (22/10/10)

monchan said:


> Can you explain extracts simply for me


Basically your taking unhopped malt extract (liquid or dry), boiling it in a pot with some water for 60 minutes and adding hop pellets at 
varying stages of that 60 minutes.

The stages are ...

1. bittering hops.
2. flavour hops.
3. aroma hops.

It really is a step up from kits and you wont get that isohop kit twang.

Here's an easy, great tasting extract recipe. This one is a 30 minute boil instead of 60.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=867


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## birusuki (22/10/10)

Thunderlips said:


> Basically your taking unhopped malt extract (liquid or dry), boiling it in a pot with some water for 60 minutes and adding hop pellets at
> varying stages of that 60 minutes.
> 
> The stages are ...
> ...




Yeah thats basically what I did. 60 min boil with the above ingredients but with a hopped kit.
So the stuff your talking about would that be this stuff
http://www.sakeland.net/?mode=cate&cbi...284&csid=14 liquid malt. 
morgans master malt base without hopps or yeast.

http://www.sakeland.net/?mode=cate&cbi...3284&csid=6 dry malt


cheers really helpful, I`ll have to get a copy of that book.
I know theres one on the net, but I only have a pc at work.


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## Thunderlips (22/10/10)

monchan said:


> So the stuff your talking about would that be this stuff
> http://www.sakeland.net/?mode=cate&cbi...284&csid=14 liquid malt.
> morgans master malt base without hopps or yeast.
> 
> http://www.sakeland.net/?mode=cate&cbi...3284&csid=6 dry malt


As long as it's unhopped.
I've only ever used Coopers, basically because it's what my nearest homebrew store has.


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## MarkBastard (22/10/10)

monchan said:


> Can you explain extracts simply for me, I`ll search some and maybe give it
> a go if its not too dounting.
> 
> Du99. not sure what the hops were they came together not labled in one kit.
> ...



The kits you normally get are basically liquid malt extract + isohops. The isohops give the bitterness.

You can buy tins that only contain liquid malt extract with no hops. Then you boil and put your own hops in to give bitterness and flavour.

The bitterness and flavour you can from real hops is better and doesn't have that home brew taste as much.


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## peas_and_corn (22/10/10)

Using old kits tends to also put a bad twang into the flavour.


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## felten (22/10/10)

Like Hoppinmad said, the liquid malt will stale faster than dried, if you're going to use liquid just make sure its really fresh.


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## brett mccluskey (23/10/10)

felten said:


> Like Hoppinmad said, the liquid malt will stale faster than dried, if you're going to use liquid just make sure its really fresh.


What exactly do you mean by the term 'homebrew ' taste.Cidery? Thick and syrupy? please define :beerbang:


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## milob40 (23/10/10)

if you wanna drink it straight away, get a keg set up, chill filter at 2 degrees c, then run through a 1 micron filter this will take out 99% of the yeast and leave a crystal clear beer.
tastes way better than a bottle left for 6 weeks. 
non filterers don't knock it till you try it :icon_drunk: 
if you need it in a bottle for a party , just drop the pressure and fill bottles from tap slowly :icon_cheers:


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## hydroboy (23/10/10)

monchan said:


> Can you explain extracts simply for me, I`ll search some and maybe give it
> a go if its not too dounting.



Hey,

I have just done my first two extract brews in the past couple of weeks so I will quickly go over how I am doing it. You said you don't have a PC at home but the extract brewing spreadsheet is a great help: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=644034

Basically if you want to steep some crystal malt, do that first. A thermometer is handy here, get 2L of water to 70deg C and throw in the grain. Leave it for 30 minutes then strain the grain out. With another 2l of 70 degree water sparge (wash) the grain through the strainer. Depending on the size of your pot add more water to total 5-10L. Add 100g of light dry malt extract per litre of water to achieve a SG of ~1.040. Bring it all to the boil, once in a rolling boil you start your timer and add your first hop addition. Assume you are making the following recipe:

15g @ 60 min
15g @ 15 min
15g @ 5 min
15g Dry hop

You would need a 60 minute boil for this. The minute values refer to time between hop addition and the end of the boil so chronologically you would have the following hop additions:

Boil starts
15g @ 0 minutes
15g @ 45 minutes
15g @ 55 minutes
Stove off at 60 minutes
Add the rest of the malt the recipie calls for then cool as quickly as possible, put the pot in an ice bath in your sink or similar. Change the water as it heats up. Once the wort reaches about 35 degrees you are probably ok to transfer to fermenter through a strainer and top up with cold water to start and then hot if required to reach desired yeast pitching temp. Ferment as usual. Add 15g ~ 3 days before bottling for the dry hop or you can also add to the keg if you are kegging.

HTH.


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## govorko1974 (23/10/10)

Here my 2 cents..being a new kit and bits brewer i have found that a fridgemate and temp control will make a huge difference to your beer, i have been using different yeast and adding ldme..as someone else has already said they seem to taste better if they have been in the fridge for a while...i once put a 4 week old bottle in the fridge for a week and just chilled another down that had been at room temp since bottling to compare the two...the one that had had the week in the fridge tasted alot better than the room temp one, so now 2 weeks after bottling i put them all in the fridge


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## birusuki (23/10/10)

toper1 said:


> What exactly do you mean by the term 'homebrew ' taste.Cidery? Thick and syrupy? please define :beerbang:



I dont know exactly.
It doesnt taste bad or cidery. nothing to do with infection etc.
but rather a taste that sets it apart from shop bought beers.
While the brew I made as decribed above is by far much more superior than any from
in my younger days and is very drinkable. it is unmistakenly homebrew.

I think I`ll give some of the above recipes a go next, and after a while I`ll put my finished brews 
in the fridge to cold condition. it all sounds good to me. I ordered the how to brew book on amazon
luckily my brew is drinkable and will keep me company while I read the book.


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## enuun (23/10/10)

Hi monchan,

Give your beers a few weeks conditioning and clearing up
My first beer was no good either after 2 weeks but after 3 months, it was WOW!
As to the comparison with store-bought, you are talking about the Asian Adjunct lagers (I am a fan of Asahi)? I am not too sure what other types are available in Japan
If its those you are comparing to, there are alot of difference because most likely you have done an ale and ales are not as clean as the lagers
I do have a few resistant lager fans (nothing wrong with that) that has not come around to ales yet.
If thats the case, you can consider getting a really good temp controller, maybe convert a fridge and start brewing the best lagers =)

Anyway, enjoy the process and give your beer a chance to get better =)


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## Kevman (26/10/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I have never done a kit I've been happy with. Done plenty of extracts I've been happy with. I reckon it's isohops.




If it was the isohops then you would taste that same taste in commercial brews that use hop extract in the manufacturing process. I haven't met anyone that drinks a commercial beer and says it has that home brew taste.

I picked up a couple of stubbies the other day of a European beer (Redgenberger or something like that) and looked on the back at the ingredients. Didn't mention hops but did state hop extract. Didn't taste like poor quality homebrew either.

It could be that the homebrew taste is that it tastes different to commercial beers. I know my wife used to make lasangne using shop bought pasta sheets. Now she makes her own pasta sheets for the lasangne. It definitely tastes noticably better. The first time she did it, she didn't tell me. I knew something was different but couldn't put my finger on it. I think to a certain extent thats what this homebrew taste thing is. Everytime the question comes up, the person doesn't know how describe it other than its different than commercial beers. And isn't being different to commercial beers a good thing?


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## Hatchy (26/10/10)

I'd say that kit yeast is the biggest cause of the "home brew taste".


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## argon (26/10/10)

I know exactly what you mean by "homebrew taste" i've only ever experienced it with kit beers or 100% extract beers. Even tasted it in another kit brewers beers.

To me it has a harsh kind of biscuity profile, maybe some burnt quality to it. For what i get, and define as that "homebrew taste", I'd say it's more linked to the extract process rather than the isohop.

Haven't tasted it in any commercial beers and not in any small proportion (of extract) partials or all grains.


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## jkirky (29/10/10)

Im no expert by any means, however my impression of the kit twang is a slight "harshness", kind of as an overtone... The flavours are all there but its like there is just something not quite right with it. Hard to describe but its almost a hint of metallic...

I have found all kits have them to varying degrees... extra hops can disguise them more.

Once I moved to unhopped extract, the flavour completely dissapeared...

Hence, my guess (like others) is the isohops...

Brewing good beer is quite simple I reckon;

1) Fresh ingredients
2) Keep ferment temps DOWN, abour 16-18degrees
3) Avoid excessive sugar (use more malt as a fementable rather than dex. - dex is good but too much = bad)
4) Keep brew in fermenter for a week extra after ferment is finished to let the yeast clean up.

This recipe works with kits, extract, partials and AG in my experience.

Obviously recipes have a huge impact but if you dont get the basics right the brew will inevitably suffer IMO...

I still brew kits occationally as they are cheap, easy, quick and produce pretty good beer... In fact, sometimes really good beer... YES you cant get the twang but dont be too hard on yourself, just put it all in perspective...

If you cant handle the twang, move to unhopped extract and you wont look back!


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## Kieren (29/10/10)

Just go AG


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## MarkBastard (29/10/10)

Kevman said:


> If it was the isohops then you would taste that same taste in commercial brews that use hop extract in the manufacturing process. I haven't met anyone that drinks a commercial beer and says it has that home brew taste.



Just because two things use isohops doesn't mean they have to be the same. The commercial brew guys may have a different process to create isohops etc.

To me it's just the only thing I can think of. LME brews with the same yeast are fine to me but kits not really.


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## brett mccluskey (29/10/10)

monchan said:


> I dont know exactly.
> It doesnt taste bad or cidery. nothing to do with infection etc.
> but rather a taste that sets it apart from shop bought beers.
> While the brew I made as decribed above is by far much more superior than any from
> ...


If you're not already using it, then i'd highly recommend you try liquid yeast.I think you'll find a big difference in the taste :icon_cheers:


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## Hatchy (29/10/10)

Kieren said:


> Just go AG



That's Kieren volunteering to bring his gear round for you to brew a couple of batches. He's a subtle bloke but if you read between the lines that's what he's suggesting.


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## kbe (29/10/10)

Kieren said:


> Just go AG


Just don't drink any thing other than K&K. After a while you will not notice it.

But in all honesty, get a fridge and a fridge mate temperature controller and it will make them heaps better.


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## MHB (29/10/10)

I've always said "home brew kits contain Iso-hop" well I was wrong, at least as far as Coopers and Morgan's kits are concerned. They are made from vacuum evaporated kettle bittered wort.
If they have any late hop character, e.g. Blue Mountains Lager, Golden Saaz Pilsner and most notably Coopers IPA that will be added post concentration in the form of a hop oil or extract. Any hop aroma is going to be lost during the vacuum evaporation - otherwise it really is concentrated wort.

The factors that I believe contribute most to the "Home Brew Taste" are:-
Staling never use a kit or extract that is out of date.
Yeast many of us in our early brewing just used the packet with the kit, there is a very good argument that 5-7g just isn't enough, especially when many worts are badly managed (following)
Temperature most K&K brewers don't have good temperature control, if you can brew your Ale at 18 and Lagers at 12 oC+/- a couple of degrees and very importantly keep the temperature consistent you will get much better beer.
Process bit of a catch all, if you leave your beer in the fermenter too long you will get off flavours (the hotter the faster), heat plates really accelerate this process as the dead and oldest yeast falls to the bottom first and sits on top of the heater getting stewed. Too long is a bit hard to define, it really depends on a lot of factors working together, a commercial brewer making Lager in a CCV would be clearing trub 3-4 times before the beer is either keged or bottled the home brew equivalent is racking I know it's fallen out of favour of late, but I suspect it's worth having a long hard look at.
Immaturity beer takes time to age, many beers that are very ordinary at 2-3 weeks are great after 6 weeks or more. Wheat beer aside (it has its own rule book) the bigger and blacker a beer, the more benefit gained from aging.
(This bit is a personal opinion)
Chlorine Chlorophenols and Chloramines are a nasty bunch, Extract and AG brewers will get rid of any Chlorine in their water because their process involves boiling, K&K brewers just using tap water can get some very off flavours I suspect the formation of organic chlorides that can be detected at very low (10's of ppb) levels may contribute, some people are acutely sensitive to them.

It's hard to point to any one thing as say "that's it" good ingredients good brewing practice and patience all play a role in making good beer, a well made kit beer can be a hell of a lot better than a badly made AG or extract. In part I suspect most AG brewers started out as kit brewers, enjoyed the beer they were making, got better at making beer (it's a skill set) learned what made better beer and have brought those skills into AG brewing which just provides a bigger pallet of ingredients and processes to play with.

MHB


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## Thunderlips (29/10/10)

MHB said:


> Chlorine Chlorophenols and Chloramines are a nasty bunch, Extract and AG brewers will get rid of any Chlorine in their water because their process involves boiling



Good point.

Problem is, for me at least, I'm still adding tap water as the last two extract recipes I did involved boils of 5 litres and 12 litres.
The rest was tap water.

I don't notice any problem with it but now that you mention it maybe I should start using the water filter I bought a while back.

Would that even get rid of Chlorophenols and Chloramines?


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## alford_j (29/10/10)

I was discussing this with another brewing mate. 

We both started with kits, went to full volume extract with pellet hops, then on to AG. 

I had a temp controlled fridge since my kit days and use the same yeasts I used with extracts. I even use the same immersion chiller, kettle and burner etc as with my extract. The AG hopping is also the same as with extract. 

We put the difference down to the extract as that is the only specific thing that has changed from extract to AG. Sure, we have both improved our process a bit, but that extract taste stands out to me when compared to a similar AG beer. 

The two things we noticed were:

1 with extracts, the malt flavours didn't integrate well together- it tasted like pale extract and crystal malt mixed together. I know that is exactly what it is but it is almost like unmixed salad dressing- you taste both flavours (oil and vinegar) separately rather than a more homogeneous, integrated malt and caramel flavour (like mixed salad dressing). 

2 the extract beers formed a head differently, with big loose bubbles and a funny mouth feel on the way down, no lacing on the glass etc.

Not sure on the chemistry etc, but subjectively, that's what we came up with.

Alfie


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## MHB (29/10/10)

Thunderlips said:


> Snip
> Would that even get rid of Chlorophenols and Chloramines?



Most tap water in Australia is chlorinated with gaseous Chlorine; I was referring to chemicals that form when Chlorine reacts with phenols and proteins in the brew. Chlorine is incredibly reactive that's why it's used as a steriliser. Apparently Chloramines are used a lot more across the pond than they are here and there is a wealth of info out there for the searching, but it's not a subject that I have investigated closely or know much about.

Just sitting your brewing water in a bucket overnight, heating it (even surprisingly little) bubbling air or CO2 through will get most of the Cl out; most domestic carbon filters will also strip out the Cl, but at a price.

Again this one is a personal opinion based on observation over a couple of decades of brewing - as soon as anything is done that makes a reasonable reduction in the Cl content there is (for me) a marked improvement in the beer.

MHB


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## rendo (30/10/10)

I can only TOTALLY concur with MHB here and add a few thoughts/views of my own. i have nowhere near as much experience as him. I pretty much a self-proclaimed kit master now. However am now doing partial BIABing, but my kit beers, just quietly, pretty damn good. I honestly havent noticed any massive improvement since going to partial brewing. My kit beers have no homebrew taste, but they USE to. Why?? well as MHB its hard to pin point one thing, and its not just ONE thing...but the things that stand out for me are (not necessarily in order, but sorta):

1. Temperature control. Brewing in a temp controlled fridge makes an amazing difference, for SO many reasons, mainly yeast related...but anyway.
can be cheap and easy if you keep you eye out for a spare fridge...be patient and u'll get one..or at least a cheapo one

2. FILTERING the brewing water before brewing......this has (at least I think) made a HUGE difference to my beers. I am just using a brita water jug to slowly fill up a 20L willow cube from bunnings the night before I brew. Then pop it in the brew fridge the night before and in the morning it is the right temp (or just a few degrees lower if I am going to be doing a hop boil...I always do hop boils now). I put it down to the absence of chlorine in whatever technical form it is in. Just make a cup of tea from tap water, and side by side against a cup of tea from filtered water and that will tell you a story. Then think what difference it will make to your beer. There are better ways to filter than a brita jug, but it is working for me at the moment, one day I will upgrade.
This is cheap and easy for any homebrewer...DO IT...at least once.

3. Using as FRESH kits as possible

4. Using extra malt rather than extra sugar/dex...with any kit (1.7kg generally) I almost always add another 1kg of LDME (light dry malt extract)..sometimes a little less and then I'll add some dry wheat malt powder or steeped carapils (grain I know) to give fantastic head and head rentention and leave behind great lacing! Rarely do I add dex/sugar, at most 200-500g.

5. Use a good quality yeast. Why is this #5...? its important, but without good brewing practices, or some of the things above, I believe that the homebrew taste may still linger even with a quality yeast. I have made brews with kit yeast with no homebrewy taste....but the better quality yeasts are great. I often make a yeast starter, this really isnt hard, and I feel it makes a big difference
better yeast isnt hard to try and the results WILL speak for themselves

6. DONT RUSH YOUR FERMENTING....I rather ferment slower (lower temp) than faster just to get it into the bottle/keg a few days earlier....I rarely will brew under 2 weeks...usually nearly 4 including cold crashing, finings, etc...If you havent tried it, then leave your brew fermenting for at least 3-5 days after it has reached a stable FG and let the yeast clean up stuff and off flavours, giving the brew time to 'mellow' and the yeast to drop out of suspension a bit....
totally recommend this for nearly all occasions and situations...

7. Experiment and KEEP records...this is crucially important. Enjoy your brewing, but take a little bit of time to make a tiny scientific effort in recording what you have done, ingredients, methods, etc, then try to improve on this each and every brew. Dont change too many things at once or you wont know what was the main thing that caused whatever the change was. Best to change only one thing at a time, but that can be hard to resist.

8. Follow point 7 and add new bits to your kits, use hop pellets, get into using some grains, try various yeasts.......there is so much that you can alter and experiment with. The amount of experimental factors just get even bigger as your expand your brewing horizons....

There is so much more...these are just some that I feel that helped me brew the beer that I do today...and all of this is due to the wonderful people who have taught me so much at AHB....Thanks guys. I hope this message helps someone out there

Rendo



MHB said:


> Most tap water in Australia is chlorinated with gaseous Chlorine; I was referring to chemicals that form when Chlorine reacts with phenols and proteins in the brew. Chlorine is incredibly reactive that's why it's used as a steriliser. Apparently Chloramines are used a lot more across the pond than they are here and there is a wealth of info out there for the searching, but it's not a subject that I have investigated closely or know much about.
> 
> Just sitting your brewing water in a bucket overnight, heating it (even surprisingly little) bubbling air or CO2 through will get most of the Cl out; most domestic carbon filters will also strip out the Cl, but at a price.
> 
> ...


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## MarkBastard (30/10/10)

Very interesting regarding the water. That's a very good point. It has to be something like that I reckon.


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## bignath (30/10/10)

Rendo/MHB

i reckon in a time when there is a lot of mudslinging going on at times, both of your recent posts in this thread are some of the best i've read. Very refreshing to still see some people willing to go the extra yard to dish out excellent advice. 

For beginner brewers, read these guys last posts on this thread. All the best tips in one place.

cheers boys!

nath


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## birusuki (30/10/10)

Big Nath said:


> Rendo/MHB
> 
> i reckon in a time when there is a lot of mudslinging going on at times, both of your recent posts in this thread are some of the best i've read. Very refreshing to still see some people willing to go the extra yard to dish out excellent advice.
> 
> ...



I couldnt agree more. I think this thread has turned in a gold mine for me anyway.
Will try spring water next, I`ll be more patient, before I crack one open biting my nails looking at the calendar.
RENDO/ MHB big cheers and to everyone else.

Alfie said "
the extract beers formed a head differently, with big loose bubbles and a funny mouth feel on the way down, no lacing on the glass etc."

this was to be my next question, I get a good head when I pour, but it dissapears fairly quickly and I find my
self looking into the class for bubbles to check its carbonated to a good level, it is.
Next brew will be markedly different from my last, And I think I`ll try some carapils for the head.

one problem due to my location and language skills over here, I order everything over the 
net, so I cant be sure of the freshness. But when I opened my last pack of hopps the smell 
was suddenly overwhelming so I guess it must be ok.


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## Nick JD (30/10/10)

When I do extract brews they don't have _that_ taste - and I use 95% unboiled tap water.


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## Thunderlips (30/10/10)

monchan said:


> this was to be my next question, I get a good head when I pour, but it dissapears fairly quickly and I find my
> self looking into the class for bubbles to check its carbonated to a good level, it is.



I can take a pair of glasses from the same batch that have been washed the same way and they will both get different results from the same beer.
One will look lifeless and flat with no head.
The other will have bubbles galore with a magnificent head.

The only thing I can come up with is that the glass with more bubbles and better head has more imperfections on the bottom of the glass.
I now have my beer glasses sorted and the average ones have been relegated to the likes of coke etc.

For cleaning your glasses, some people swear by water and vinegar.
I use water and BrewClean these days.


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## felten (30/10/10)

There is going to be an extract show coming up on brewstrong IIRC, Jamil has been extolling the use of extract lately. It should be a good show for any extract brewers.


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## rendo (30/10/10)

Hey Big Nath & Monchan, 

Here's cheers to making kick ass beer!! :beerbang: 



Big Nath said:


> Rendo/MHB
> 
> i reckon in a time when there is a lot of mudslinging going on at times, both of your recent posts in this thread are some of the best i've read. Very refreshing to still see some people willing to go the extra yard to dish out excellent advice.
> 
> ...


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## rendo (30/10/10)

monchan said:


> Will try spring water next, I`ll be more patient, before I crack one open biting my nails looking at the calendar.
> RENDO/ MHB big cheers and to everyone else.



MC, thx m8
regarding spring water, by all means use it, youre sure to find heaps on info on it here, plenty of people do use it. I am not a big fan, proper mineral is just that, not really "pure" water. It has salts, minerals etc in it. I am sure it will make beer that tastes just fine, should be an improvement on tap water..i imagine. Maybe you can look for water that is just pure water, eg reverse osmosis etc, not mineral/spring water, I am not too sure of the range at the supermarkets. Don't be tempted to by the carbonated mineral water!!! haha. Or just get yourself a brita water filter jug. Use it for the home, the kids, the kettle and most importantly...BEER MAKING 

Rendo


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## rendo (30/10/10)

monchan said:


> beers formed a head differently, with big loose bubbles and a funny mouth feel on the way down, no lacing on the glass etc."
> 
> this was to be my next question, I get a good head when I pour, but it dissapears fairly quickly and I find my
> self looking into the class for bubbles to check its carbonated to a good level, it is.
> Next brew will be markedly different from my last, And I think I`ll try some carapils for the head.



For sure, carapils is great, I find that using carapils(about 100g - 300g) , along with 500g-1000g of LDME and 300-400g of wheat malt powder gives a great head that lasts the whole glass...depending on so many other factors too of course.....


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## manticle (30/10/10)

Water for beer supposedly needs some minerals in it. Calcium is definitely one so if using pure or filted water types you may need to tweak the profile more than otherwise using salts.

Probably better just to preboil the water you have in your tap (cheaper too)


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## rendo (30/10/10)

Yeah, so true....I was trying to stay away from the whole side of water chemistry. I prob shouldnt have mentioned "PURE" water...but yeah, for all the new guys, there is a whole science behing the water chemistry/composition for differening styles of beer. Google and AHB google will give u a lot of info, but I didnt want to open up that here...

I use to boil the water for the brew too...but couldnt be bothered now....the brita water filter gets used for all driniing water in the house, and brewing, it leaves flouride in, so thats (arguably) a good thing for us & our teeth, not sure about the beer....so the night before brewing, whether watching the tv, drinking some homebrew, on AHB or all the above, I just have my 20L willow cube beside me and fill it up over the course of an hour or three. Once its done it goes into the brewing fridge to chill, ready for the next day. Its great as I dont have to stuff around trying to get the right temp for pitching the yeast. Multi-tasking is hard for a male, but I can manage it when it comes to brewing 

rendo



manticle said:


> Water for beer supposedly needs some minerals in it. Calcium is definitely one so if using pure or filted water types you may need to tweak the profile more than otherwise using salts.
> 
> Probably better just to preboil the water you have in your tap (cheaper too)


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## manticle (30/10/10)

I agree that the last thing a kit brewer wants to be thinking about is water chemistry. I've just seen a lot of people recommend against using pure spring type waters unless you add salts to adjust the profile. Thus boiling would be easier to see if it makes a difference.

For me both kit beers and extract beers don't have a twang so much as a flavour I associate with extract. It's generally just a slight one dimensional characteristic. This can be removed by additions of spec grain and hop additions. Decent yeasts also bring a whole new perspective to brewing.

As mentioned - none of these mean diddly if you are not clean, sanitary and fermenting at a good temperature range. 

I'm not sure about the water thing. I've tasted chlorephenols in a beer and they are horrible but that was due to inadequate rinsing after using bleach as a sanitiser. I never got that flavour when I did kit or extract brews. However it's worth trying at least once either boiling the full volume of water or adding sod. met. to the water to see if it makes a difference.

Only add sod. met. if your water uses chloramines - personally I would never use the stuff without rinsing it off.

As for the isohop thing - I was informed in response to an email that coopers do use isohop ocassionally in both their bottled beer and kits to maintain consistency but that the majority of their bitterness in both comes from fresh kettle additions.

Discussion of the whole issue is slightly difficult as no-one ever seems to be able to define exactly what homebrew/twang flavour really tastes like.

Without wanting to be the tit who says 'go AG', I have only noticed my good AG brews tasting like the beer they are and they set a benchmark for what I look for in commercial brews (and then some commercial brews set a benchmark for me in return). Fresh grain, fresh hops, fresh yeast. All these things can be added to a kit and will improve it out of sight.


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## felten (30/10/10)

All the minerals that are in the breweries water, would be concentrated down in the extract, they aren't devoid of minerals. So RO water is probably fine.


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## manticle (30/10/10)

Good point. Not sure how it all works. 

23 litres of bottled water adds a fair cost to a kit brew though so boiling is still a good option.


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## Nick JD (31/10/10)

I know the solution to ridding your beer of kit twang.


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## MHB (31/10/10)

felten said:


> All the minerals that are in the breweries water, would be concentrated down in the extract, they aren't devoid of minerals. So RO water is probably fine.


Yep

Wouldn't suggest spending a bomb on "water" just leave it in an open bucket overnight. If you're concerned about bugs a splash of one of the peroxide "Shield" type sanitisers would be fine.

MHB


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