# Strong belgian style beer from kit?



## eMPTy (8/4/15)

Hi everyone,

Just wondering if anyone has had a success brewing a high alcohol content style Belgian beer from a kit?

I know Mangrove Jack's offers a Belgian style can, i'm not sure of any other brands that do. Has anyone tried adding a good quality Belgian style yeast and other stuff to try get something like a Tripel or Belgian Strong Ale type beer? Do you think it would be possible to get something that doesn't taste like pure alcohol with such a simple base?

Cheers!


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## wobbly (8/4/15)

Williamswarn also do a Belgian kit.

But this might be more what you are looking for:-

Copied from this site http://homebrewandbeer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9200

Quantity Grain Use
1.70 kg Mangrove Jack's Belgium Ale
1.50 kg Amber D.M.E. extract
0.40 kg Golden Syrup
0.50 kg Dark Candy Sugar granules

Quantity Hop Form Time
15.00 g Cascade pellet 60 minutes
15.00 g Saaz pellet 20 minutes
15.00 g Saaz pellet 0 minutes

3tbps crushed coriander seeds
1 orange rind
Belgium Ale yeast (from Mangrove Jack's kit)

And the follow up comments were:-

Just put down another on Saturday in an attempt to further perfect the same beer. Turned out that by throwing in the coriander seeds it clogged up my bottler 




Have taken someone's suggestion to steep the seeds for 20 minutes and then strain the liquid in, discarding the seeds. Also dried the orange peel first in the oven on low for an hour.
I swapped the golden syrup out and replaced with Molasses which is tasting really nice in the sample I took and also added an extra 1.5kg malt.

It has ended up as a potential 10.85% abv and over the past three days has already fermented down to 2.4% remaining so I'm really happy with that. Probably class it as a Quadrupel I'd say.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Blind Dog (8/4/15)

Have you considered a fresh wort kit? I know ESB do a Belgian Golden Ale and a Dubbel that are each around 7%, others may also make them. No idea if they are any good though as I've never used an FWK.


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## eMPTy (8/4/15)

wobbly said:


> Williamswarn also do a Belgian kit.
> 
> But this might be more what you are looking for:-
> 
> ...


Interesting. Cheers for that. Have you used any Williamswarn stuff before? I am pretty new to the hobby but can't say i've heard of it.



Blind Dog said:


> Have you considered a fresh wort kit? I know ESB do a Belgian Golden Ale and a Dubbel that are each around 7%, others may also make them. No idea if they are any good though as I've never used an FWK.


Hadn't really given it too much consideration at the time of posting if i'm honest. The ESB fresh wort kits do look quite interesting, although there is not alot of information about how to best use them on their website...


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## Lord Ester (8/4/15)

I'm pretty new to all this. I have a Duvel copy sitting in my FV currently. It was basically a Cooper's Canadian Blonde kit with a $hitload of sucrose (sugar) in it, about 1kg of LDM, hopped with Helga, filled to 21lt and topped off with MJ's Belgian Ale Yeast. It will be a big beer; somewhere around 10% ABV. Fermented it slightly on the warm side. My version of it is only slightly modded on another version already on the net ...


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## eMPTy (8/4/15)

Lord Ester said:


> I'm pretty new to all this. I have a Duvel copy sitting in my FV currently. It was basically a Cooper's Canadian Blonde kit with a $hitload of sucrose (sugar) in it, about 1kg of LDM, hopped with Helga, filled to 21lt and topped off with MJ's Belgian Ale Yeast. It will be a big beer; somewhere around 10% ABV. Fermented it slightly on the warm side. My version of it is only slightly modded on another version already on the net ...


Very interested in hearing how that turns out.

I am thinking i might try do something similar and get either a blonde kit or a Mangrove Jack's Belgian Ale and add plenty to boost the alcohol then buy a good Belgian style Wyeast to replace whatever it comes with.

Alternatively, perhaps i'll try that interesting ESB Fresh Wort Kit idea (as i've never heard how they fare) and either do similar to that or reduce the water top up to increase ABV?


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## wobbly (8/4/15)

Hey empty

I understand Absolute Home Brew Supplies in Sydney stock the Williamswarn kits - Google is your friend!!!!

Williamswarn (Google is your friend if you are interested in finding out more about the WW) produced a PDF with something like 58 kit recipes (one for every BJCP style) based on their kits but you could use Black Rock or Mangrove Jacks as I think they are all produced in the same brewery

For their Belgians they use Fermentis T58 yeast and recommend for OG over 1060 you use two packets

If you are interested in the PDF send me a PM and I will pass it onto you

Cheers

Wobbly


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## anthonyUK (8/4/15)

I think you could make up something pretty good with a suitable donor kit, brew it short and add some home made candi syrup.
Use a suitable yeast such as the ones already mentioned above.

For an off the shelf kit I would try a Coopers dark ale.


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## eMPTy (8/4/15)

anthonyUK said:


> I think you could make up something pretty good with a suitable donor kit, brew it short and add some home made candi syrup.
> Use a suitable yeast such as the ones already mentioned above.
> 
> For an off the shelf kit I would try a Coopers dark ale.


Out of curiosity, why the Coopers dark?


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## manticle (8/4/15)

If you want to brew a golden strong, get a high quality pale coloured kit like coopers heritage lager.
Add briess pilsen or weyermann pilsner malt to hit about 1065. Add 200g dex, about 10-20 g fresh styrian goldings and 10g fresh saaz. Boil for 10 minutes, add to fermenter with top up water (good quality, soft, clean water).
Ferment with a very fresh pack (preferably 2 unless you're willing and able to make a starter) of wyeast 1388, belgian strong ale. When ferment is just about done, add 200g more of dex, boiled in enough water to dissolve. Leave 2-3 days and repeat until you have added 1kg of dex total (incl. the 200 to first boil).
Leave 3 more days then cold condition for 1 week, add finings if desired and leave in cold for a further 2-3 weeks.
Long process, expensive ingredients but should get close to duvel and worth the money and time.
To make a tripel, use half half briess/wey pils and munich. Also Wyeast 1762, belgian abbey II works well in a tripel.
Start fermentation at 17 (wort temp) and allow to rise slowly to 22 for gs or tripel.


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## wobbly (8/4/15)

It would depend on what you were trying to emulate

EBC IBU
Belgian Blonde 8 - 14 15 - 25
Belgian Pale Ale 16 - 28 20 - 30
Dubble 20 - 35 15 - 25
Tripple 9 - 14 20 - 40
Dark Strong 24 - 43 20 - 35

I have seen the above numbers for various Belgians and a Cookers Dark at around EBC of 48 and IBU of 43 doesn't seem to fit any of them

Cheers

Wobbly


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## eMPTy (8/4/15)

manticle said:


> If you want to brew a golden strong, get a high quality pale coloured kit like coopers heritage lager.
> Add briess pilsen or weyermann pilsner malt to hit about 1065. Add 200g dex, about 10-20 g fresh styrian goldings and 10g fresh saaz. Boil for 10 minutes, add to fermenter with top up water (good quality, soft, clean water).
> Ferment with a very fresh pack (preferably 2 unless you're willing and able to make a starter) of wyeast 1388. When ferment is just about done, add 200g more of dex, boiled in enough water to dissolve. Leave 2-3 days and repeat until you have added 1kg of dex total (incl. the 200 to first boil).
> Leave 3 more days then cold condition for 1 week, add finings if desired and leave in cold for a further 2-3 weeks.
> ...


Thanks mate, will have a think on that.

Has anyone tried harvesting yeast from a high ABV beer before? Just occurred to me I have access to some La Trappe Quadrupel. I have heard that harvesting yeast from high ABV commercial beers is unlikely to yield good results due to yeast stress. If it could work though, that could be an interesting addition to this creation.


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## anthonyUK (8/4/15)

eMPTy said:


> Out of curiosity, why the Coopers dark?


It has a lowish IBU and I think it would suit the style if you upped the SG with additional malt or candi.


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## barls (8/4/15)

does anyone still carry the brewferm kits. they made a decent belgian from memory


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## manticle (8/4/15)

eMPTy said:


> Thanks mate, will have a think on that.
> 
> Has anyone tried harvesting yeast from a high ABV beer before? Just occurred to me I have access to some La Trappe Quadrupel. I have heard that harvesting yeast from high ABV commercial beers is unlikely to yield good results due to yeast stress. If it could work though, that could be an interesting addition to this creation.


You can reharvest yeast from bottles and it can be a fun exercise.
However yeast character is such a key to a good belgian and the fresher, less stressed it is, the more likely you are to get a good beer. Believe me I have tried so many routes and the above method I provided has given me the closest results to a commercially available, high gravity belgian (albeit ag but fermentation and maturation are at least as important as ingredients and wort production method).

By all means play with yeast reculture but at the same time buy a decent amount of fresh, healthy, easily available liquid yeast from wyeast or whitelabs and try side by side. So many good strains available too. To be honest, I reckon dipping your worn sock in the wort would give as good a result as recultured bottle yeast from a quad that's travelled halfway across the world but find a fresh enkel or belgian pale/table beer and try out the bottle culture thing.


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## manticle (8/4/15)

anthonyUK said:


> It has a lowish IBU and I think it would suit the style if you upped the SG with additional malt or candi.


Might work well for a dubbel but OP (post) suggests OP (poster) is after a tripel or golden strong. Generally higher ibu works for those two, obviously paler kit too.


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## shacked (9/4/15)

Hey mate,

I did this one a while back: http://www.esbrewing.com.au/belgian-tripel-style-recipe-pack.html

It required a fair bit of time in the bottle to get to its best but it ended up being a tasty brew.


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## eMPTy (9/4/15)

shacked said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> I did this one a while back: http://www.esbrewing.com.au/belgian-tripel-style-recipe-pack.html
> 
> It required a fair bit of time in the bottle to get to its best but it ended up being a tasty brew.


I had looked around that site but hadn't stumbled across the recipe packs... That's very interesting, either as a rough recipe/style idea or even just to buy and see how it goes.

I've never used Candi sugar before, what would it be bringing to the recipe?


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## shacked (9/4/15)

To be honest, other than ABV, I'm not really sure. 

I've used dark candi sugar in a Belgian Red Ale and it added a nice bit of colour. Again it was an ESB recipe pack (http://www.esbrewing.com.au/abbey-red-ale-style-recipe-pack.html) 

This might help: http://byo.com/grains/item/1552-using-brewing-sugars-tips-from-the-pros


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## eMPTy (9/4/15)

shacked said:


> This might help: http://byo.com/grains/item/1552-using-brewing-sugars-tips-from-the-pros


That helps a great deal


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## manticle (9/4/15)

Commercially available dark syrup will add deep dried fruit and toffee notes to a dark strong or dubbel. For a golden, tripel or other pale beer I'd suggest you'll get little that makes it worth the money. Dex will do pretty much the same job.
You can make candy sugar yourself but if you ever go down the dark strong road, I can almost guarantee you won't make anything like the dark commercial stuff which is worth every cent.


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## shacked (9/4/15)

eMPTy said:


> That helps a great deal


Cool mate. Let us know what recipe you end up going with and keep us posted on the results!!


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## eMPTy (9/4/15)

shacked said:


> Cool mate. Let us know what recipe you end up going with and keep us posted on the results!!


Will do.

I've decided I am going to try make a yeast starter with La Trappe Quadrupel. The success or failure of that will probably impact on any recipe.


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## mongey (14/4/15)

as a strong belgian whore I have done the mangroves jacks can and the 5 litre ESB FWK golden beligan and the ESB FWK dubbel

out of the 3 the dubbel came out the best and closest to what I wanted . its was ball park of a chimay blue. obviously not as good but it was def ballpark

the 2 belgian styles were drinkable but more comprable to a leffe blond which I do like but isnt my favourite beer


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## eMPTy (15/4/15)

mongey said:


> as a strong belgian whore I have done the mangroves jacks can and the 5 litre ESB FWK golden beligan and the ESB FWK dubbel
> 
> out of the 3 the dubbel came out the best and closest to what I wanted . its was ball park of a chimay blue. obviously not as good but it was def ballpark
> 
> the 2 belgian styles were drinkable but more comprable to a leffe blond which I do like but isnt my favourite beer


http://www.esbrewing.com.au/beer-making/wort-kits/finest-round-wort-kits/finest-round-belgian-dubbel-wort-kit.html

That the dubbel one you refer to mate? That does look a very interesting base.

edit: although finding someone with it in stock looks problematic at the moment.


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## mongey (15/4/15)

Yeah Thats the one . I think their brewer left and they have all his receipies but no one to make them



eMPTy said:


> http://www.esbrewing.com.au/beer-making/wort-kits/finest-round-wort-kits/finest-round-belgian-dubbel-wort-kit.html
> 
> That the dubbel one you refer to mate? That does look a very interesting base.
> 
> edit: although finding someone with it in stock looks problematic at the moment.


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## eMPTy (15/4/15)

mongey said:


> Yeah Thats the one . I think their brewer left and they have all his receipies but no one to make them


Well that's a major shame. Was ready to just give that a go pretty much. Now i'm back to deciding which direction to head in...


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## eMPTy (15/4/15)

Appreciate any feedback on the below (given i am very new to brewing). I do not know what the balance might be for something like this. I got it together by looking at various other recipes and adding here or there. In the end I am leaning a dark strong ale. I believe the combination below would hit a OG of ~1.100, but as mentioned - this could be way off and would rather feedback now before i invest time and $$$.

1.7kg Coopers Dark Ale
1kg Light LME
2kg Dark DME
0.5kg Wheat Dry Malt
250g Special B
200g Grain Infusion Pack Cara Malt
500g Dark Candi Sugar
500g Dextrose
12g Saaz

So. Thoughts?


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## manticle (15/4/15)

I would still go pilsner base and all light malt extract, buy some d2 syrup and steep half that spec grain amount and use 1262 (two packs). Add 200 g dextrose to the kit, add the candy in 200 g increments after ferment as slowed, as suggested earlier. Also stryian goldings really work in belgian beer and play well with saaz.
Loads of yeast and good conditioning time are essential (I'd recommend 3 packs for 1100 but you'll probably balk at the price).


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## wobbly (15/4/15)

eMPTy

Do you have a copy of ianH excel spread sheet for kit and extract recipes if not do a search for it as it will help you with your recipe formulation

Using the spread sheet and assuming 23lt brew, Saaz boiled for 60 mins and T58 yeast used then the specifics look some thing like this

OG = 1.087 (mid point target 1.075)
FG = 1.022 (mid point target 1.010)
IBU = 45 (mid point target 20)
EBC = 93 (mid point target 23.6) 
Alc = 8.8%
Balance value = 1.07 (mid point target 0.72)

According to the "guide lines"
OG and FG look OK
IBU mid point target 20 high at actual 45
EBC mid point target 23 actual very high at 93

Cheers

Wobbly
Edited as in the previous post I only had half of the DME


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## eMPTy (15/4/15)

manticle said:


> I would still go pilsner base and all light malt extract, buy some d2 syrup and steep half that spec grain amount and use 1262 (two packs). Add 200 g dextrose to the kit, add the candy in 200 g increments after ferment as slowed, as suggested earlier. Also stryian goldings really work in belgian beer and play well with saaz.
> Loads of yeast and good conditioning time are essential (I'd recommend 3 packs for 1100 but you'll probably balk at the price).


Thinking about it and a quick google search reveal pilsner base is probably not a bad shout. As for the all light malt extract, why that do you think over the dark? The d2 syrup i had looked into but had struggled to find viable stockists, do you happen to know of any? Can't say i'm familiar with 1262.

As for the yeast, i've yet to decide on a strain but that was in my mind. Also was considering splitting it up into a few batches with different yeasts to try test the differences.



wobbly said:


> eMPTy
> 
> Do you have a copy of ianH excel spread sheet for kit and extract recipes if not do a search for it as it will help you with your recipe formulation
> 
> ...


I did have a _very _quick look at that spreadsheet. Thanks for your breakdown as I am not particularly familiar with its use. Looks like it needs a little bit of work still.


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## manticle (15/4/15)

My apologies - 1762, belgian abbey 2 from wyeast.
D2 should be available from craftbrewer, grain and grape and online brewing supplies. There's possibly som joints in Sydney too. Really does bring a lot to the party.
Reason I suggest light malt is that most dark strong types will have a mainly pils/pale base, possibly some dark crystal and a wack of dark, fruity beet sugar for colour, flavour and abv.
It can be tempting to throw everything at a beer like this due to complexity of commercial examples but generally better results come from simplifying, pitching enough healthy yeast and fermentation and conditioning schedule.


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## eMPTy (15/4/15)

So something more like that would be far closer to guidelines? Obviously the EBC is still over the top due to the dark candi, but i don't mind that idea. Otherwise amber would bring it down to within the markers.

So perhaps not the worst recipe and worth giving a go? Possibly subject to some of manticle's suggestions, especially if i can obtain the d2 syrup instead?

And the yeast, while i have the T58 there is still TBA.

edit: having just looked at the price of candi syrup (by the time it gets posted to me) i am not sure i can justify it


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## antiphile (15/4/15)

Probably not what the OP wanted, but Coopers have a super easy kit recipe for a 6% Abbey Blonde on their site.


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## eMPTy (16/4/15)

Ended up buying all the ingredients more or less in the image above. Also manticle, forked out for the d2 syrup. Figured it should be worth it after the amount it has been talked up here and elsewhere. May as well try the best.


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## shacked (17/4/15)

Interested to see how this one turns out mate. Are you going to brew this weekend?


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## eMPTy (17/4/15)

Would have loved to this weekend, but had to source some of that stuff off the Internet. My local doesn't seem to stock much. Ideally it all arrives fairly quickly and I'd brew Wednesday or Thursday next week. Will just have to see.


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## eMPTy (17/4/15)

Oh, and because it was cheaper i bought my yeast online too, so will have to do some thinking and build up an appropriate stater.


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## eMPTy (8/5/15)

So life got in the way of this, I finally got it done yesterday. This was significantly more involved than anything I'd done previously so I expected plenty of room for the unexpected in terms of outcome. That said, I think I did everything as I should have.

When I took the OG reading though I hit closer to 1.110 than the 1.094 expected. I was wondering if anyone may have had an idea as to what may have happened to cause this?

I did multiple partial boils if anyone thinks that may have had a significant impact and then combined all in the fermenter.


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## shacked (8/5/15)

Nice one mate. Did you make a starter / pitch a lot of yeast??


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## eMPTy (8/5/15)

I did make a starter of about 3.5L stepped up. Worrying now that even that may not have been big enough as it was sitting in the fridge a few days and then had to be pitched in to what is a very very big beer.


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## manticle (9/5/15)

Was the volume as expected? Higher gravity may simply be uneven mixture.
For 1094 I absolutely would have used a bigger starter and pitched when active.
I would be looking at 4-6 L of healthy, fresh known yeast strain.
I also would have started at 1070-1080 and bumped up the abv incrementally post fermentation to get what I was after.
Good luck with it though


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## eMPTy (9/5/15)

In hindsight I definitely should have done those things. I guess I just knew I wouldn't have another free day coming up in a while so went with what I had. Hopefully the yeast is just a bit slow to start but can get the job done.

What is confusing me though is the gravity reading being so significantly over what the calculator suggested. That i just cannot make sense of.


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## manticle (9/5/15)

Unmixed malt/extract. Common occurrence. If the volume and extract/sugar numbers in the calc are correct, trust the calc. Different with mashing when you might have different conversion efficiency but calculators are good for extract (providing your measuring is correct - not all litre jugs are the same for example).


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## eMPTy (9/5/15)

Suppose that could very well be it. It would make sense that the heavier/thicker items such as the syrup, can and LME would sit lower in the fermenter even with what i thought was a good mix. Hopefully that is all there is to it.


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## eMPTy (28/5/15)

Just like how I got a higher OG than expected for this attempt, it seems i may have a very high FG (or a stalled brew).

It has been in the fermenter about 3 weeks. It had been at about 18 degrees, then 20 or so after a week i'd guess. It seems to have stopped at ~1.031 and has been there for over a week. I have done a force ferment with some of the beer in another vessel and it hasn't moved. I have also turned the fermenter up gradually to about 24 degrees, and gave it a swirl a few days ago. It hasn't moved.

Does anyone think it is possible that somehow this is the correct FG?


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## manticle (28/5/15)

Not unexpected given your process. Try making an active starter of 1388 and adding to see if you can get it down further.

Hate to say I told you so but....

I told you so .
Next one - loads of fresh, healthy yeast, start at 1070 or so with malt and bump up with sugar in stages towards the end of fermentation

Just checking the obvious - readings are with a hydrometer or refractometer?


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## eMPTy (28/5/15)

No need to say I told you so, I totally accept that would have been the thing to do.

Will try not to make that mistake again.

The starter is probably the go. Unfortunately I have totally run out of the strain I was using so it looks like i'll have to fork out for another smack pack...

Hydrometer.


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## manticle (28/5/15)

Cool. If with refrac, uncorrected for alcohol, fg would actually be lower but either yeast is exhausted or reached its abv tolerance. 1388 is a very abv tolerant belgian yeast that can kickstart this kind of situation but needs to be in an active starter.


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## eMPTy (28/5/15)

I'll consider the 1388 route, would prefer to stick to the 1762 which on the wyeast site is just about as abv tolerant.

When you suggest the active starter, are you also then suggesting the entire starter would have to be pitched? Given i am fairly new to the scene starters aren't my strong suit as yet. Normally I would assume it best to cold crash a starter and pour off the top to minimise the impact on the beer.


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## panzerd18 (28/5/15)

When people say add sugar, are they talking table sugar or dextrose?


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## manticle (28/5/15)

In my experience, 1388 will pick up where 1762 left off. At this stage of fermentation, it won't add anything untoward to the brew and it is a high gravity belgian.

Yes add the whole late. Basically just make a small batch of beer, as soon as krausen or co2 bubbles are visible, pitch the lot.


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## manticle (28/5/15)

panzerd18 said:


> When people say add sugar, are they talking table sugar or dextrose?


Can be sucrose, dextrose, candy sugar. Depends on the beer and colour/flavour desired.


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## eMPTy (12/6/15)

An update on this one. Pitched another lot of yeast on the 6/6 in the form of an active starter.

Checked the SG today and it is still at about 1.030

So it has now been around that gravity for 2-3 weeks. Must be done.

Next question. Given what went into the beer, does anyone have any idea how it could have overshot the FG so much? I would understand for example if i had put in too much D2 Candi. It was a 1kg liquid and I was aiming for 0.5kg. I would understand if maybe i'd stuffed up and put in an extra hundred or few hundred grams. I find it quite difficult to accurately get the correct amounts of liquids like that. Candi sugar should be 100% fermentable as I understand it though...

Everything else should have been measured out accurately. Thoughts?


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## Vini2ton (12/6/15)

If I bought a chinese strat and a 10w practice-amp could I be Jimi Hendrix? I know little of Belgian beer production practises but sometimes we must ask ourselves the question, "are we being fair dinkum?" I can do dot paintings but I don't come from the western desert. Just cause you buy a kit and pour sugar syrup into it, with a belgian yeast, hardly gives you a duvel etc. Scuse me while I kiss the wry. Those beers have depth of culture and history. Let's give them some respect for their art.


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## eMPTy (12/6/15)

I am really not sure what your point is. I am acutely aware this is not an authentic beverage.

Anyone else?


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## manticle (12/6/15)

What yeast in the starter?
With that high an original gravity, you have created an environment that is toxic to many yeast strains due to alcohol. To shift it, simple sugar or no, you need an active starter of highly alc tolerant yeast. That's why I suggested 1388 as that is one that worked for me in a very similar situation.


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## eMPTy (12/6/15)

Don't have much spare time at the moment with uni exams and couldn't get the 1388 without ordering it.

Active starter of WLP530. It is rated to 15% ABV.

Are you suggesting that it is just not at all possible that it could have finished there?


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## manticle (12/6/15)

No I am not suggesting it is impossible. Not desirable but not impossible.


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## eMPTy (13/6/15)

Yep. Not desirable at all.. I'll keep an eye on it a while longer before bottling.

Thankfully it tastes alright at the moment. 

I appreciate the input, it is situations like this where you often have the potential to learn the most.


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