# Ross Method Of Forced Carbonation Of Kegs



## PistolPatch (15/1/06)

Thought I'd post 'The Ross Method' of Carbonation under a new thread heading as I've searched for it several times and it's pretty hard to find. I also have a question that hopefully Ross can answer and a suggestion for newbies like me.

The Ross Method...

"After filling the keg (upto the weld mark just below the top) with cold beer turn pressure upto 300 kpa & rock keg back & forth on its side (inlet at bottom) for 50 seconds. Turn off gas (on main bottle) but continue to rock keg while monitoring the pressure dial. You will see the pressure full back quite quickly & then stabilise (100 - 200kpa). The goal is for the pressure to fall back to between 140 - 160 kpa depending on your preference (140 pommie ale - 160 Aussie beer). If the pressure falls well below 140 kpa, just turn gas back on & rock for another 10 - 15 secs, then recheck & repeat as necessary. I find that 60 secs is nearly always about the mark. Then all you have to do is release the top pressure valve on the keg (normally a couple of hours later to avoid foam flying out of the valve), connect to your gas (making sure you have set pressure back to 80 kpa or whatever you like to dispense at) & you will pour a perfect beer."

One Suggestion: This will be really obvious for everyone here but for newbies like me, try to use a dedicated gas line from the regulator to do this (i.e. no T-Pieces). For example, I had a T-Piece to run gas to the keg and a beer bottling gun. I ended up with beer running back up the gas line which basically meant new gas lines. Whoops!

One Question: Like an old girlfriend used to tell me, I don't seem to know when to stop. This method has worked every time for me so far but I reckon I've rocked for more like ten minutes than a minute. I just did one and took a bit more notice this time. If I gently rock it the guage will go down very slowly but if I shake it vigorously, the guage goes down fairly quickly even after ten minutes. When is enough, enough?

Thanks again Ross for the method.

P.S. I know you're meant to wait overnight but I'm going to run out of beer in about ten minutes so I either have to stop drinking or release the pressure on the keg I shook vigorously about 45 minutes ago.

Well, someone's gotta try it! :beerbang:


----------



## PistolPatch (15/1/06)

Surprisingly, after patiently waiting a whole 50 minutes, I have got pretty much all head! Solution: Pour into jug first! No worries! Probably you should only do this when really desperate.  

(By the way, didn't get any foam out top of keg when I purged it.)


----------



## Ross (15/1/06)

Pistolpatch,

Not 100% sure what you're asking...

But with reference to the pressure guage dropping after turning the gas off - you are just waiting for it to stabilise, though it will continue to drop very slowly if you keep on vigourously shaking. I find it drops fairly steadily & then virtually stops - this is when you take the reading. Also, as you found - several hours isn't needed before you release the top pressure. 10 to 15 mins is normally adequate.

Hope I've answered your question...


cheers Ross


----------



## PistolPatch (15/1/06)

Hey there Ross!

You must be good luck! Replying here and just won $20 in a single hand of poker! Cheers!

Anyway... My beer is coming out all head still. I suppose my question was do you gently rock back and forth (ie keg on it's side) or vigorously shake in every possible direction?

(Just won another $6!)

I think, on reflection, that my question is the rate of decline on the guage though I am not sure how you can possibly answer that. The difference between 160 and 140 seems minute when you are doing the shaking.

(Just won another $9 - all $US by the way!)
(another $6)

OK. An idea! Could you word the Ross Method to say that if upon shutting off gas and with gentle rolling, if 160 (or 140) is reached within so many seconds then you have achieved your goal?

Sorry about this post but as you can probably tell, few too many beers and you are seriously good luck!

Thanks Ross!


----------



## Sparky (21/1/06)

Hi Pistol Patch & Ross

After some trial & error with kegging, (I've got kegs from Matt at C&C and fittings from Brett (Token Survivor) on ebay.)

Now I can carbonate at dispensing pressure using additional gas lines in the "Kegerator". 3 beers on tap & 3 carbonating is the norm here. 

I've found 13-14 PSI @ 4deg for at least 2 weeks is the best for me and works well with ales as well as lagers. 

IMHO There's usually a settling in the taste of the beer too.

Means getting busy with brewing to get a few weeks ahead, however once you are ahead it's a breeze.

Cheers

WayneO


----------



## fifteenbeerslater (22/1/06)

Sparky,
You carbonate for 2 weeks at low pressure to get suitable carbonation. Do you leave the gas on after 2 weeks and if so can you overcarbonate say by week 4,5 or6.
Cheers 15BL :beer:


----------



## JasonY (22/1/06)

fifteenbeerslater said:


> Sparky,
> You carbonate for 2 weeks at low pressure to get suitable carbonation. Do you leave the gas on after 2 weeks and if so can you overcarbonate say by week 4,5 or6.
> Cheers 15BL :beer:
> [post="104059"][/post]​



This method is refered to as balanced kegging and you wont overcarbonate if you leave the gas at pouring pressure.

The whole objective of carbonating is disolving CO2 into the beer. The amount that dissolves is related to pressure (the higher the pressure the more CO2 that gets dissolved) and temperature (the lower the temperature the more CO2 that gets dissolved). 

So if you keep your fridge at the same temp and select a pressure which gives you the dissolved CO2 you need (say 100kpa) and set your taps up to pour well at that pressure then as long as you dont mind giveing the kegs a week or two to gas up you will be fine. I also gas my kegs this way.

The forced carbonatin method by rocking the keg speeds this all up by increasing the contact area of the co2 and beer at a higher pressure. You can try this method at your pouring presure it will be slower but you wont overcarbonate your beer if you go too mad.

Good luck


----------



## PistolPatch (23/1/06)

Thanks Jason & Sparky,

Wish I had that many kegs!!! I'm in a 1 bedrrom apartment so forced carbonation is my only option. Am finding the Ross Method has worked well but was probably trying to get a bit too technical before in my questions or, more probably, just too many beers!!! Now that I've done it a few times I think I have a 'feel' for it.

P.S. Just put a brew on yesterday and thanks to prior thread suggestions, bought a 100litre Can Cooler ($30) and Safale SO4 yeast. Outside temp is 27 and fermenter sitting on 18 with only 3 freezer blocks every 12 hours - unbelievable - might be my first quaffable brew!

Cheers and more beers!


----------



## iralosavic (30/3/12)

Just chose the oldest relevant thread to ask: If I leave anon return valve on my gas line, should I expect pressure to not change on the gauge when turning co2 off? Anyway, I just followed this method and that's what happened. Cheers


----------



## seamad (30/3/12)

Yep thats normal.


----------



## seamad (30/3/12)

Should clarify, leave non return valve in always, pressure will drop as you shake keg.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (30/3/12)

iralosavic said:


> Just chose the oldest relevant thread to ask: If I leave anon return valve on my gas line, should I expect pressure to not change on the gauge when turning co2 off? Anyway, I just followed this method and that's what happened. Cheers


should it not change ? Yes
1 Assuming your beer is totally saturated with CO2, otherwise beer this will suck CO2 to equalize.
2 you have no gas loses.
3 expansion in gas lines
This will give you a few ideas to think about.
Nev


----------



## iralosavic (30/3/12)

I can't find any leaks... After purging the excess pressure and returning lines to 80kpa, the new keg poured next to flat. I think I may have misinterpreted the keg rocking action though - I sat it vertically and swayed it. Was I supposed to lay it horizontally and roll it?​


Gryphon Brewing said:


> should it not change ? Yes
> 1 Assuming your beer is totally saturated with CO2, otherwise beer this will suck CO2 to equalize.
> 2 you have no gas loses.
> 3 expansion in gas lines
> ...


----------



## ShredMaster (30/3/12)

iralosavic said:


> Just chose the oldest relevant thread to ask: If I leave anon return valve on my gas line, should I expect pressure to not change on the gauge when turning co2 off? Anyway, I just followed this method and that's what happened. Cheers



I guess your question poses more questions to be able to answer it correctly as to what you were intending to get the answer for.

When you ask about the non-return valve and the pressure dropping, are you referring to shutting of the gas and rocking/shaking and watching if the needle is moving?

When you shut off the gas, are you shutting of the knob on the cylinder or the knob on the regulator? In my limited experience with my Tesuco reg, shutting of the knob on the gas cylinder will allow the pressure dial to read what is currently in the keg, my reg has a built-in non-return valve. 

I don't fully understand exactly how a non-return valve differentiates between not returning liquid yet returning a reading for the gas. I could be way off track but no doubt someone here will clarify. 

Cheers,
Shred.


----------



## iralosavic (30/3/12)

I shut the gas off at the bottle and continued rocking the keg and observed no reduction in pressure - and it was still flat.


----------



## ShredMaster (30/3/12)

So we dont clutter up this ancient thread, perhaps start a new thread and explain EXACTLY what you did so the people who are experts have a chance to look more into your procedure and help update you with what could cause that effect.

Just an idea, I know I want to hear more about what you did and why it didn't work, but a thread from 2006 is probably not the best place for that discussion.

Cheers,
Shred.


----------



## hsb (30/3/12)

iralosavic said:


> I can't find any leaks... After purging the excess pressure and returning lines to 80kpa, the new keg poured next to flat. I think I may have misinterpreted the keg rocking action though - I sat it vertically and swayed it. Was I supposed to lay it horizontally and roll it?​


Yes, lay it flat and roll vigorously with your foot whilst it makes scary noises.


----------



## bignath (31/3/12)

hsb said:


> Yes, lay it flat and roll vigorously with your foot whilst it makes scary noises.



Yep, and in addition to this, try to keep the gas in post closest to the ground, beer out post closest to the sky.


----------



## iralosavic (31/3/12)

I run the gas down the liquid tube, so I still want the keg oriented this way? 

There was another thread with videos and they showed the keg being rocked while vertical. I'm starting to wonder if my lines arent coping with 300kpa. I have the stepless clamps and broke my pliers haha before I could crimp every single one properly hmmm


----------



## shacked (10/10/15)

I kegged for the first time today following this method. It took me bout 90 seconds to get to a resting pressure of 21 PSI / 145 KPA.

I vented all pressure, hooked the beer lines up and set the reg to 10 PSI for serving. All I'm getting is foam. I vented and dialed the serving pressure back to 2 PSI and now I am able to pull a reasonable beer with a little extra foam but nothing too much.

Any ideas where I've gone wrong here? The beer was cold crashed to about 3 degrees before I transferred to the keg.


----------



## Yob (10/10/15)

You shook it too much, go back yo 60 seconds and work up


----------



## shacked (10/10/15)

Yob said:


> You shook it too much, go back yo 60 seconds and work up


Thanks yob 

Is there anything I can do now?


----------



## shacked (10/10/15)

Yob said:


> You shook it too much, go back yo 60 seconds and work up


After 50 seconds the keg pressure settled at 16 psi. I then did 4x 10 second bursts, checking the pressure between bursts to get it to 22 psi. Should I have just stopped at 16psi?


----------



## Yob (10/10/15)

what I did (and Ive never over charged a keg) is gas to 30 PSI turn gas off.. shake till 10 PSI repeat twice.. or 3 times depending on my mood.

I now just shake it like a red headed step child for 60 seconds @ 30 PSI


----------



## shacked (10/10/15)

Yob said:


> what I did (and Ive never over charged a keg) is gas to 30 PSI turn gas off.. shake till 10 PSI repeat twice.. or 3 times depending on my mood.
> 
> I now just shake it like a red headed step child for 60 seconds @ 30 PSI


Thanks mate. I'll give the red headed step child method a go next time. 

Just pitched a starter of WLP051 into an all Citra / Veloria wort. Should be good to keg in 10 days or so time.


----------



## Yob (10/10/15)

Veloria?


----------



## shacked (10/10/15)

http://www.barleyman.com.au/products/malts-grains/aussie-base-malts/voyager-buloke-veloria-malt.html


----------



## micblair (10/10/15)

I would recommend using a Zahm Nagel type chart (see: http://www.draughtquality.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Carbonation_Volumes_Pressure_Temperature_Chart.pdf) and base your final gauge pressure off that, for a given number of CO2 volumes. 

For example:
2.6 volumes at 4C (40 F) would require a final gauge pressure of approx. 95 KPa (13.8 PSI).


----------



## danestead (10/10/15)

After force carbing 50 kegs using this pressure method I now only ever shake it until the resting pressure is no higher than the serving pressure I will be using ie 10-14psi ish. You will never ever over carb your beer this way. The beer will be drinkable in half an hour once its settled although slightly under carb but in about 2 days it will be at your perfect carbonation.


----------



## shacked (10/10/15)

Thanks micblair and danestead I'll give it a go next week when my next brew is ready to keg


----------



## CoxR (10/10/15)

Depends how long you have let it sit for.
I do this half arsed nearly every keg but leave it for a around 1/2 a day to 1 day at around 200kpa before I pour my first pint. I have done it in about 3 hours and still got a bit more than normal


----------



## CoxR (10/10/15)

Depends how long you have let it sit for.
I do this half arsed nearly every keg but leave it for a around 1/2 a day to 1 day at around 200kpa before I pour my first pint. I have done it in about 3 hours and still got a bit more than normal


----------



## micblair (11/10/15)

The first glass will blow off a bit of foam (bleeding off any excess pressure), but you should be able to pull a glass of beer pretty much right away if carbonated correctly.


----------



## Smokomark (11/10/15)

How long do you guys force carb a 9lt keg for?


----------



## danestead (11/10/15)

smokomark said:


> How long do you guys force carb a 9lt keg for?


Depends how much head space there is when you are shaking it. It makes a huge difference.


----------



## razz (11/10/15)

smokomark said:


> How long do you guys force carb a 9lt keg for?


Same as the large kegs. 30 psi and shake for sixty seconds.


----------



## micblair (11/10/15)

smokomark said:


> How long do you guys force carb a 9lt keg for?


It's not a question of how long, its one of equilibrium pressure at the gauge once you've shut the gas supply off and shook the keg long enough so the needle stabilises.


----------



## dannymars (11/10/15)

shacked said:


> I kegged for the first time today following this method. It took me bout 90 seconds to get to a resting pressure of 21 PSI / 145 KPA.
> 
> I vented all pressure, hooked the beer lines up and set the reg to 10 PSI for serving. All I'm getting is foam. I vented and dialed the serving pressure back to 2 PSI and now I am able to pull a reasonable beer with a little extra foam but nothing too much.
> 
> Any ideas where I've gone wrong here? The beer was cold crashed to about 3 degrees before I transferred to the keg.


 how long are your lines? and what diameter? how high is the tap? Sounds like your system is unbalanced if 2psi was fixing the foam issue... problem is, if you leave it @ 2psi, your beer will go flat.

This is the best calculator I've found for balancing your system... http://www.calczilla.com/brewing/keg-line-balancing/

I never use time as an indicator... only pressure. I usually force CO2 down the liquid tube at ~30psi then turn the gas off and keep shaking until it hits 10psi... usually do this 3 times, the 3rd time it will take longer... but once it reaches ~10-13psi it's almost ready to serve immediately. Always do this cold.

PS: if you are using the liquid tube to force carb, you do not need to lie the keg down..


----------



## shacked (11/10/15)

dannymars said:


> how long are your lines? and what diameter? how high is the tap? Sounds like your system is unbalanced if 2psi was fixing the foam issue... problem is, if you leave it @ 2psi, your beer will go flat.
> 
> This is the best calculator I've found for balancing your system... http://www.calczilla.com/brewing/keg-line-balancing/
> 
> ...


I've been doing a bit of research and I think my 6mm lines are way too short at about 1m. I've got a three tap keg mate and I just used the lines provided by the hbs. 

I kept going until the pressure hit 21ish psi. Is there anything I can do about that now?


----------



## dannymars (11/10/15)

Hard to know if you've over carbed.... As I said, I just shake the keg until the pressure goes down... if it simply won't go down any lower than 21psi, then my assumption is that you have over carbed.... only thing you can do is release the pressure until the beer off gasses the CO2.. unfortunately this will take a lot of the aroma with it (including hops). 

1 meter is way too short for a decent carb level. I run 2.5meter lines, 5mil ID, reg set @ 12PSI... this keeps all my beers at an average carb level... and flowing perfectly... My taps are not very high... higher taps would require less line.... there's a fair margin for error with this stuff too... My taps flow pretty strongly, but it would still work if they flowed a little slower (longer or narrower lines), if I take a keg to a party and switch to my 1M picnic tap line I just dial the regulator back to about 4psi... no chance of the beer going flat if you drink it all that night! 

A balanced system is one that keeps the right carb level over a long period of time and pours evenly... Unfortunately there's a trade off and that is that all the beers must be carbed to the same level. In a perfect world I would have my saisons carbed to ~3.2 vols and my stouts carbed to ~1.8 - but you gotta choose a medium carb level and stick with that... unless you have separate regulators on each keg gas line and some kind of flow control on your taps/beer lines.


----------



## dannymars (11/10/15)

another useful calculator... http://www.brewersfriend.com/keg-carbonation-calculator/


----------



## shacked (11/10/15)

How long should my 6mm line be? Should I just grab 4 meters worth and try it out?


----------



## dannymars (11/10/15)

shacked said:


> How long should my 6mm line be? Should I just grab 4 meters worth and try it out?


yeah, not a bad idea.. it depends on tap hardware, height of hardware, temperature, viscosity of the liquid etc etc. So starting long and see how you go is not a bad option. Especially if you have john guest fittings, otherwise it could be a pain if using stepless clamps.


----------



## danestead (11/10/15)

shacked said:


> How long should my 6mm line be? Should I just grab 4 meters worth and try it out?


Yep, and just keep chopping off half a meter at a time until you get a length which flows fast enough for you without too much head.


----------



## shacked (11/10/15)

Thanks guys, I'll grab another 4m of it on Tuesday


----------



## dannymars (13/10/15)

What sort of taps and set up are you running?


----------



## shacked (13/10/15)

Keg mate with 3 SS intertap taps


----------



## shacked (16/10/15)

danestead said:


> Yep, and just keep chopping off half a meter at a time until you get a length which flows fast enough for you without too much head.


Just hooked up 4m and still have the foaming issue. Not sure what to do next. Any ideas?


----------



## Rocker1986 (16/10/15)

Warm taps? Shitty quality shanks? Keg still overcarbonated?

i had the same issue on my first keg using this method, because there was a slight gas leak when I first did it, then once I fixed that I re-did it but it was already partly carbonated. I fixed it by de-gassing over a day or so, but before that, in order to pour with no foam I had to turn the reg up to over 20 PSI, then shut the gas off immediately and burp it. Obviously returned to constant normal pressure around 11-12PSI once it was back to normal carb level.

Ever since I've simply put the cold kegs in to the fridge at serving pressure and waited a week, but when I get some spare kegs building up I will try a reduced carb version of this method so they don't take as long once put into the fridge.


----------



## danestead (16/10/15)

shacked said:


> Just hooked up 4m and still have the foaming issue. Not sure what to do next. Any ideas?


Nope sorry dude. Probably best to get a home brewer in your area to come take a look. Usually foaming is because of line length, warm taps or over carbed beer.


----------



## RelaxedBrewer (16/10/15)

How does this method go with heavy hop aroma beers? No problems with loss of aroma from shaking an foaming, or something?


----------



## bear09 (16/10/15)

AT the risk of sounding like a major bubble burster... Ive never understood why people would want to force carb. I could be being a noob here but for me every beer I have ever kegged takes a fortnight before it hits its sweet spot in the barrel (ales here folks)...

If you gotta wait for it to be a fortnight old I dont understand the need for force carb. I put the pressure on at 1 bar and leave it for 4 days. I sample at 5... try to wait until 10 (never do) and by the time it gets to 14 days its just nectar!

Ive never had problems with over carbing, under carbing or beer coming up the lines - EVER. I guess I just dont understand the panic to get the beer carbed when really it has to condition for a couple of weeks to become great.


----------



## Diesel80 (16/10/15)

shacked said:


> Just hooked up 4m and still have the foaming issue. Not sure what to do next. Any ideas?


Have you tried 4mm or 5mm ID line? 6mm is pretty large ID for beer line.
I have 4mm on my kegmate and runs up to FC taps on the Tower. 4m line length I have, but it is not really needed with the FC taps. Could go shorter but having no problems, so don't want to mess with it.

Cheers,
D80


----------



## shacked (16/10/15)

Diesel80 said:


> Have you tried 4mm or 5mm ID line? 6mm is pretty large ID for beer line.
> I have 4mm on my kegmate and runs up to FC taps on the Tower. 4m line length I have, but it is not really needed with the FC taps. Could go shorter but having no problems, so don't want to mess with it.
> 
> Cheers,
> D80


I've got some 5mm line, I'll give it a go tomorrow!

Might brew up a quick kit and kilo. I recon I've probably wasted 10+ pints of my AG american brown ale :blink:


----------



## Benn (16/10/15)

I've got 3.1 metres of 6mm line each running to $30 eBay taps. Height from middle of keg to taps is roughly 600mm, fridge hovers around 4deg. Initial pour is foamy but once the tap is cold it all works pretty good.


----------



## shacked (17/10/15)

OK, so last night I degassed the keg with the intention of resetting the regulator to 2psi to pour a beer, forgot about it and this arvo i reset to 11psi and poured a perfect beer.

I think it was overcarbed to start with and now it seems to be working fine.

Thanks for all your input!


----------



## Rocker1986 (19/10/15)

bear09 said:


> I guess I just dont understand the panic to get the beer carbed when really it has to condition for a couple of weeks to become great.


That's a fair point, and at the moment I am using the set at pouring pressure and forget it for a week or two method with great effect. However, when I get a small stockpile of kegs in waiting, I'll force carb them quicker, not fully carbed but carbed enough so that when they eventually make it into the kegerator I don't have to wait a week to try them.

Glad to hear your issues have sorted themselves out too Shacked!  Foamy over carbonated kegs are no fun.


----------



## GalBrew (20/10/15)

Hooking a keg up to CO2 at any pressure is force carbonation. You are all force carbing whether you use the Ross method or not. Also there is a formula to work out your beer line length. It's based on line inner diameter, serving pressure and the height the beer has to rise. Some quick math is a lot easier than trial and error.


----------



## shacked (24/10/15)

Kegged another brew today.

After purging at serving pressure, I cranked in up to 30psi and shook the hell out of it (on the side) for 60 seconds with the IN post down, waited 15 mins, burped it and set to 12psi. 

Perfect pour!

I've replaced all my line with 6mm x 4m.


----------



## Blind Dog (24/10/15)

You must be stoked. Hopefully that's problem solved


----------



## Yob (24/10/15)

That's the spirit


----------

