# Yeast Farming



## chiller

I have been asked on a number of occassions to explain my method for yeast farming -- Well it is nearly 40c outside and even I consider it is too hot to fire up the NASA burners so I hope you find this material useful.

Yeast and homebrewing are almost hand in hand as mystery black arts. And there is a mountain of repeated information that is never tried just repeated.

Yeast is a great thing and it has a strong need to make beer. It is no where near as delicate as people try to make out and will survive for a very long time with a very small amount of preparation.

Yeast from the secondary are often the slower flocculators and as such may not be true to the character of the initial pitching that is comfortably sleeping in the primary.

The day before you intend to remove the beer from the primary prepare 2 litres of sterile water [boil for 15minutes is enough] and allow to cool in the fridge in a sealable PET soft drink bottle will do.

Obtain 2 500 ml jars, a clean sanitised beer glass and 3 50 - 100 ml sample vials.

Transfer the beer off the cake and remove all the beer [not the yeast] Pour 500ml of your sterile water into the fermenter and give it a very good swill around to mix the yeast and water, now with the sanitised beer glass collect enough of the yeast solution to almost fill one of the jars. Shake it really well and lightly seal it and set it in the fridge for about 10 - 15 minutes. The heavy material will drop and you can now pour the top 3/4 of the liquid into the other jar and top up with sterile water. 

Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the other jar. After the 10 minutes pour the milky yeast liquid into the 2nd jar and top up with sterile water. Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the first jar. Now pour the top 3/4 of the liquid into the other jar and top up with sterile water. Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the 3 small sample jars.

Fill the sample jars 3/4 full with the milky liquid remaining, cap these and place in the fridge.

What remains in the larger jar can be used for your next brew [make a starter] or discarded.

Next stage is to let the yeast settle out in the sample jars for 24 - 48 hours. You will now have a compact yeast layer and reasonably clean liquid on top. Remove the lid and pour off most of the liquid and replace with your sterile water. Shake well and let settle again for 24 hours. The liquid will now be quite clear, pour this off and replace with sterile water and return to the fridge. Check your samples over the next week and if the water shows any discolouration replace it with fresh sterile water.

These samples will remain viable for at least 12 -- 18 months and maybe longer. I have used a Scottish ale yeast kept in my yeast farm that was dated 3 years old. It fired up over 2 days stepping up from 50mls to 150 mls to 500 mls.

I have used yeast over many generations maintained in this manner with absolutely no changes in character. Far bejond the mythical oft repeated homebrew law of 3 generations. For interesting reading on yeast examine what the late George Fix had to say on the topic.

The only danger and it is real is the danger of infection when harvesting yeast. Most All Grain brewers are competent at sanitation and the problem is small.

Pint of Lager has at one stage on either this forum or another posted a very practical guide to sanitation.

Even if you only brew once again from each of the samples over the next 6 months you will be using your yeast more efficiently. Don't forget when you use the last sample repeat the procedure. Another three samples will be waiting when you need them. You will probably have 3 -- 4 favourite yeasts you use on a regular basis and this method will ensure you keep a healthy supply ongoing for a very long time.

Yeast are your friends. 

Steve


----------



## JasonY

Well done chiller, excellent guide. I am certainly not at this level in terms of my yeast harvesting practices. I have been just storing the slurry in the primary for future brews or splitting the original starter. 

One thing I don't do and perhaps you can shed some light on the benefits is the whole stepping up thing. I just make my 1L starter and turf the yeast in and wait for the action to start. What is the benefit in doing say a 100ml, 500ml, 1L step? I just figure if I am boiling the DME I may as well do the whole 1L so I don't have to boil repetitivley.


----------



## chiller

The short unscientific answer is that if you give a relatively small number of yeast a larger [compared to their number] amount of starter they can get rather lazy and often only work on what they need and not reach the sort of numbers requires for a brew. They then behave a lot like Aussie drinkers after their fill and fall asleep on the bottom of the bar/starter.

Adding from my collection about slightly bigger than a thumbnail amount of yeast to 50 mls ensures that they will get into the reproductive stage quickly without moving to beer making stage. Adding more starter to the 50 mls at about 24 hours keeps them in the making yeast stage. If I time it right I will step up to 1 - 2 litres at the point the yeast numbers are approaching the maximum for the size of the starter. 

Steve


----------



## jgriffin

I've used similar methods before with great success. After a few cycles of fresh water, i've ended up putting the yeast slurry back into the white-labs tubes that i have around. You can easily get 1/2 dozen of these tubes packed with 3 times that amount of yeast you get when you buy a tube, and i've had no problem kicking them off again 6 months later.


----------



## spog

great informative post,chiller,ihave been doing the same as jy,and have yet to find a problem,i have only recycled ? my yeast,s no more than 3 times because i was under the impression that after this time the yeast basically shit,s it,s self. but now it has finally dawned on me that ,yes yeast IS a living organism and if looked after and not basically abused will continue to grow,or be useable.


----------



## Gulf Brewery

Hi

There are a couple of points that have come out that need a bit of clarification.

The first is stepping up the wort. One of the main reasons is so that the yeast will outnumber the bacteria in the wort and will dominate. If you pitch x amount of yeast into 50ml vs the same amount into 1 litres, then in 50ml they will a lerger percentage of the organisms in the beer.

The second is re-using yeast. Yeast will mutate over successive generations and also the bacterial and wild yeast count will increase over time. Its safer to replace the yeast after a few generations rather than risk infection and/or off flavours.

Cheers
Pedro


----------



## sosman

> The first is stepping up the wort. One of the main reasons is so that the yeast will outnumber the bacteria in the wort and will dominate. If you pitch x amount of yeast into 50ml vs the same amount into 1 litres, then in 50ml they will a lerger percentage of the organisms in the beer.



I take it that is assuming (me not being a micobiologist) that either:

a) The bacteria are in the wort (vs with the yeast), otherwise the ratio will be the same when pitched. Since I boil wort for starters it is presumably sterile relative to yeast slurry.

B) The bacteria multiply faster so you want the yeast to start producing alcohol soon to limit growth of bacteria.

Anyway, this is more curiosity than anything, I generally step up (but wouldn't bother if I didn't have to).


----------



## pint of lager

Sos,

Sterile means there are no bacteria, wild yeasts or spores. This is achieved by putting the sample in a pressure cooker or autoclave. Boiling does not kill all spores. 

For making up starters, you can boil wort for 20-30 minutes, cool, and use straight away. 

Also, bacteria and wild yeasts muliply at about 10 times that of our brewing yeast. So if you start off with a small infection and a small amount of yeast, the unwanted yeast or bacteria quickly multiply to levels that are detectable in our beers.

Brewing yeast does change the conditions to be unfavourable to bacteria. pH decreases, alcohol is produced and the wort becomes anearobic (no oxygen.) All of these limit the growth of some sorts of bacteria. Be aware that after fermentation, there is alcohol and long chain sugars in your beers, both of which are high energy sources to some bacteria.


----------



## sosman

One crazy idea I was pondering was to drip feed a starter.

The idea would be to start out with say 50ml then time your dripper so it was up to 2L over 24-48 hours. Its probably more mucking around than just stepping up but I was thinking it would provide a continuous feed of fresh nutrient to the multiplying yeast.

Anyone work in a hospital? All I need is one of those hooks on wheels thingy and put my yeast on an intravenous drip.


----------



## pint of lager

Sos, this is not a crazy idea, this is how companies make yeast in commercial quantities. 

The yeast is drip fed nutrients and oxygen in the right mix and kept in suspension by continuous stirring. I suppose the manufacturers have ways of measuring growth rates, dissolved oxygen and other parameters and adjusting the drip rate to match.

You can buy a periastaltic pump or a dosing pump off ebay. They come up every so often in the "lots more" category, in either lab gear or medical subcategory.


----------



## Backlane Brewery

FWIW, this is from the commercial brewers FAQ section of the White Labs site (see links page)



> How many generations should I use my yeast?
> We recommend 6-10 generations per strain. Three main reasons yeast should be replaced on a regular interval are bacterial contamination, yeast cell mutation, and yeast fatigue.
> Bacterial contamination is largely responsible for off flavors. Bacteria grow at an exponential rate in comparison to the yeast.
> Yeast cell mutation. Yeast cells will adapt to their environment, this could dramatically or subtly change the characteristics of the beer.
> Yeast fatigue. Beer is a hostile environment for the yeast. Healthy yeast requires oxygen and food (malt). CO2 and alcohol are detrimental to the overall health of the yeast.


----------



## Sean

Of course how many generations you can get depends a lot on the yeast. Some strains are very stable and you can reuse plenty of times with little work and no problem. I've gone to 13 generations with a yeast just pitching each brew with the slurry from the previous with no appreciable change in character. That was a good traditional ale yeast sourced in a jam jar from a pretty traditional friendly micro-brewery, who in turn had sourced it from a very traditional old family brewery (the only one in England still with a thatched roof). It certainly hadn't been anywhere near a lab in 20 generations, probably much longer.

On the other hand, some yeast strains aren't even stable for more than three or four generations in their own originating breweries without significant lab work. 

Additionally, if your brewery is significantly different from the source you are likely to speed that up - Marstons claim their yeast changes after a single generation when used in square fermenters instead of the Burton Union sets, which is why they spent such a huge amount of money building a new Union set a few years ago.

Some larger breweries never reuse yeast out of their own breweries - all the yeast is supplied afresh each generation by their labs. I know Whitbread worked like this, and I presume the same is true of many others.


----------



## roach

Sean,
This is an interesting topic and in the context of a homebrewer who has good yeast farming techniques, I would be interested to know your experience, in what yeasts become unstable after 3 or 4 generations?

Such empirical evidence from brewers who practice good technqiues, would be valuable, as there is seems to be of conflicting info on this topic of yeast farming and generations.

Roach


----------



## wee stu

Dane - how about airlocking this thread?
Chiller's initial post was highly informative, and one which should be easily got hold of for anyone struggling with the concept.


----------



## Batz

Done stu


----------



## BJCP Education Director

Ive been working in a lab with yeast for about 10 years now. The problem with yeast farming is that you must insure the quality and health of the yeast. The most know way to do this is to 'acid wash' your yeast. Basically, by washing your yeast in acidulated water you kill a lot of the bacteria. This is because the cell wall of the bacteria are different from yeast however the problem is that is reduces the viability of healthy yeast. The new method is to use Sodium Chlorite (NOT bleach, thats Sodium HYPOchlorite). Basically, it oxydizes the crap out of the bactera making them rupture.

Here is a link going more in depth:
http://www.birkocorp.com/brewing/yeast.asp

Here is a great little lab protocol manual from a really good yeast farming company:
http://www.brewingscience.com/Brewers%20La...%20Handbook.pdf


----------



## Hoops

Excellent explanation there Chiller.
Printed and in my HB folder.

I have a question on this topic that I have been contemplating.
I currently have a large bottle of Chimay (door prize from HB club) and want to build up the yeast and split into samples for myself and other club members. My question here is do you think I should:

1. Make a starter, pitch in a brew then harvest yeast?

OR

2. Make a large starter and split that into samples?

Hoops


----------



## BJCP Education Director

Eventhough I would with yeast on a daily basis I still prefer buying my yeast if I can. The problem is that the yeast in the bottle has been stressed not only from the fermentation but also from sitting in the bottle surrounded by all the alcohol. When I culture yeast, I plate it on Wort-agar plates, pick a single colony and grow it up. Doing it this way ensures that 1) I will have a pure strain and 2) wont have any infections.

You can get he Chimary strain from:

White Labs WLP500 Trappist ale
Wyeast 1214 Belgian ale


----------



## Trough Lolly

BJCP Education Director said:


> Here is a link going more in depth:
> http://www.birkocorp.com/brewing/yeast.asp


Thanks for the interesting read - I've added it to Steve's article and kept a hardcopy in my folder...I already have the protocol manual  Regarding Chlorine Dioxide, is it readily available in bottles or is this stuff unstable chemically - ie, it degrades to its constituent elements when stored? 
Regardless - I'm gonna stick to Steve's KISS article and if I get daring, I might have a go a yeast washing - jeez they're gonna need bloody small clothespegs!  

Cheers,
TL


----------



## Hoops

Similar procedure here for freezing test tubes of yeast


----------



## pint of lager

> BJCP Education Director Posted Today, 09:50 AM
> When I culture yeast, I plate it on Wort-agar plates, pick a single colony and grow it up.



From my understanding, it is better to pick a few colonies and use them rather than just one. 

This means you have a spread of yeast, not just from one genetic strain.

You pick colonies based on size, "not too big, not too small."


----------



## chiller

BJCP Education Director said:


> Ive been working in a lab with yeast for about 10 years now. The problem with yeast farming is that you must insure the quality and health of the yeast. The most know way to do this is to 'acid wash' your yeast. Basically, by washing your yeast in acidulated water you kill a lot of the bacteria. This is because the cell wall of the bacteria are different from yeast however the problem is that is reduces the viability of healthy yeast. The new method is to use Sodium Chlorite (NOT bleach, thats Sodium HYPOchlorite). Basically, it oxydizes the crap out of the bactera making them rupture.




CHLORINE DIOXIDE is the chemical you are talking about not the typo you mention above.

As for availability in Australia I'm not sure.

For homebrew culturing on petri dished Pint of Larger's erring on the side of caution makes a lot of sense.

Steve


----------



## nonicman

This link provides a bit of background on Chlorine Dioxide.

National Pollutant Inventory Database



> Chlorine dioxide gas is flammable, and is violently explosive in air at concentrations over 10%. It can be ignited by almost any form of energy, including sunlight, heat, or sparks.
> Chlorine dioxide is strongly oxidising, and reacts violently with organic chemicals and can be detonated by sunlight, heat, or contact with mercury or carbon monoxide.


 quote from the above link

Seems a bit dangerous for home use (unless you can get a stabilised version), but it is widely used and is approved for use in food preperation, paper, it's used as a water treatment and is found in alternative medicines :blink:. From digging through Google it seems that chlorine dioxide is manufactured in situ due to the above explosive properties. 

I'm not a chemist but was wondering if hydrogen peroxide (diluted) could be used instead for washing yeast? It seems to have similair properties to chlorine dioxide, but readily available in a stable form.


----------



## BJCP Education Director

Chiller,

No I was quite right. Sodium Chlorite is very safe and easy to use. If you activate it by adding it to acidulated water it will produce chlorine dioxide gas in the water. At the working concentrations 20-50ppm it does wonders AND its extremely safe. Most big breweries use it as a non-rinse sanitizer.

As for the yeast colonie choosing, you want one single strain with one single genetic background. Thats why each yeast has different characteristics. If you mix strains then you loose this. It took Emil Hansen a very long time at Carlsberg to isolate the first pure strain of lager yeast.


----------



## chiller

BJCP Education Director said:


> Chiller,
> 
> No I was quite right. Sodium Chlorite is very safe and easy to use. If you activate it by adding it to acidulated water it will produce chlorine dioxide gas in the water. At the working concentrations 20-50ppm it does wonders AND its extremely safe. Most big breweries use it as a non-rinse sanitizer.
> 
> As for the yeast colonie choosing, you want one single strain with one single genetic background. Thats why each yeast has different characteristics. If you mix strains then you loose this. It took Emil Hansen a very long time at Carlsberg to isolate the first pure strain of lager yeast.
> [post="50773"][/post]​




Ok,

In your post you refer to one chemical and in the link a different chemical is mentioned.

I don't accept your "knowledge" because you post as BJCP whatever.

If you are going to post please ensure you are not posting confusing material.

It is very easy on the net to claim contact with anyone without proof as to your bonifides. 

You may be who you claim to be but then again .... maybe not. On rec.crafts.brewing there is a troll called Mr. Giggles, maybe you know him?

Any of the information you cite is readily transcribable off the net. Many of the brewers on this forum have an extensive knowledge of short and long term storage of yeast based on practical experience. A few go to the trouble of washing yeast with acid but that is not a common practise for homebrewing here in Australia. In a conversation I had with Dave Logsdon last year in the presence of others on this list both the pros and cons were discussed.

Steve.


----------



## BJCP Education Director

The ONLY reason I started reposting to this site is b/c I know Australia is trying hard to work with the BJCP, as is South Africa, to standardize the home brew judging competitions. You guys have a lot of good brewers with good knowledge and information. 

CHiller is absolutely correct. I could be Mr. Giggles. I frankly dont really have the time to be posting as I do. Ill check back from time to time.

If you need anything or have any input you can contact me directly at: [email protected]

Name's Kristen England


----------



## nonicman

Chiller, I've have a look around for the conversation with Dave Logsdon, I'm guessing this was a face to face conversation? 
Since moving to QLD I've found that good yeast is hard to get (LHBS don't stock it), not having a car, getting to Brisbane is not a viable option ($50 plus for public transport). I ordered some yeast via a website (will remain unnamed) and was sent yeast that expired 2 months ago, it took five days for the smack pack to come alive (posties leaving the package outside during doesn't help). Not real impressed with being sent an expired product with no warning. So getting everything out of what is available makes sense. 
For the moment I will stick to the farming advice I have picked up from yourself and others. I don't like the sound of acid washing or using CD.

BCJP, your post needs a bit more detail, as it was a little confusing for noobs like myself.


----------



## chiller

nonicman said:


> Chiller, I've have a look around for the conversation with Dave Logsdon, I'm guessing this was a face to face conversation?
> 
> [post="50799"][/post]​




Yes the conversation was at a function organised by Grumpys last years. Dave Logsdon was in Australia and we were fortunate enough to have the benifit of the direct access to his knowledge. From memory Jayse, MAH, TDH and others were there. It was a very informative night.

Steve


----------



## Trough Lolly

As was your original post, Steve - thanks...

TL


----------



## Hoops

I have been thinking of making some starters or yeast farming with an Oktoberfest yeast.
I have been thinking though, since it is several yeasts would the yeast mix change in ratio and not be true to form next time? ie survival of the fittest yeast. So if conditions were better for once yeast than another would you get an imbalance?

Hoops


----------



## Jovial_Monk

Yes


----------



## fergi

what an excellent question hoops,i myself have thought about why yeast deteriates over succesive culturing and that was one of the reasons i had in my head ,but thought in the end probably not worth asking incase it was a bumb question, glad you put it up
fergi


----------



## pint of lager

Fergi, you may have missed a bit of info to understand what is being posted.

Some of the supplied yeast tubes are actually a mix of strains, rather than an individual strain. When these are recultured in starters, it is unknown which strain will dominate after two or three step ups.

This is even more important if you are culturing out of a petri dish when individual colonies are being selected. It is impossible to know which strain you are selecting, and for this reason any yeast farmer avoids mixes like the plague.

When continually reusing yeast slurry from bottles and stepping it up for starters, any infection will show through. The yeast doesn't "deteriorate", it is the risk of infection that increases.

When continually restreaking and reculturing yeast, there is a gradual "drift" in the population due to mutations of the yeast. Once again, the yeast doesn't deteriorate as such, it just slowly changes character. Unless you select only one colony that has mutated, then it will show marked change, rather than a drift. This is why when I culture, I select a number of colonies rather than just one colony from a plate.


----------



## jgriffin

I thought that i would post my current Yeast starter method. I used to do the stubbie-starters, however my santitation must have not been up to scratch. After 6 months or so in the fridge, they started to show signs of infection.

So i decided to make the leap into plating. I've got most of the gear (thanks hoops!) but haven't managed to get a pressure cooker yet, or had the time to be honest (don't ever start a company, your brew time goes to nothing).

Anyway, i have adopted a hybrid system atm that appears to be working very well for me.

First step is to boil 200ml of wort in a 500ml Ernelnmyer flask on the stove for 15 mins with the foil "lid" on the flask for the duration. I then let the flask cool a fair bit, before shoving it in an ice bath, removing and allowing to dry.

I then take a disposible syring (5 for $1) and a tube of yeast. Shake the tube to suspend the yeast, and suck up aroun 0.5ml of yeast into the syringe. Then i carefully squirt this into the wort, and safely dispose of the syringe.

Obviosuly i then step up to a large amount of wort as per normal.

With this method, i'm only storing the original (hopefully infection free) yeast sample - so no infections from poor sanitation or "floaties" that will cause problems 6 months later. It's not as scientific as plating, but loads easier i imagine, and heaps "cleaner" than boiling the wort in a saucepan and transfering to another bottle.


----------



## Darren

jgriffin said:


> I thought that i would post my current Yeast starter method. I used to do the stubbie-starters, however my santitation must have not been up to scratch. After 6 months or so in the fridge, they started to show signs of infection.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, i have adopted a hybrid system atm that appears to be working very well for me.
> 
> First step is to boil 200ml of wort in a 500ml Ernelnmyer flask on the stove for 15 mins with the foil "lid" on the flask for the duration. I then let the flask cool a fair bit, before shoving it in an ice bath, removing and allowing to dry.
> 
> [post="72684"][/post]​



JG,
Putting the flask in the microwave will probably save you 5 or more minutes. Just adjust the power setting if you are getting boil-overs. Remember you need to biol for 10 minutes to get sanitation


jgriffin said:


> I then take a disposible syring (5 for $1) and a tube of yeast. Shake the tube to suspend the yeast, and suck up aroun 0.5ml of yeast into the syringe. Then i carefully squirt this into the wort, and safely dispose of the syringe.
> 
> Obviosuly i then step up to a large amount of wort as per normal.
> 
> With this method, i'm only storing the original (hopefully infection free) yeast sample - so no infections from poor sanitation or "floaties" that will cause problems 6 months later. It's not as scientific as plating, but loads easier i imagine, and heaps "cleaner" than boiling the wort in a saucepan and transfering to another bottle.
> 
> [post="72684"][/post]​



Sounds like the way to go


----------



## Mr Bond

Found this recently and it filled in a few gaps for me,Thought i would tack it onto this thread as it may be helpful to newbies or,stir up some debate/conjecture on an interesting topic.  

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/MB_Rain...t_Culturing.php


----------



## Plastic Man

Some more good links for info on plating, yeast, other microbes, etc.

1/ looks like a guys uni assignment. Great info especially if you were actually setting up a micro:

Paul Smith (2001) Article / Assignment on controlling microbes in a brewery. Published on Brew Monkey Web Site. http://www.brew-monkey.com/articles/MBS21.doc

2/ looks like a lecturers notes. A good summary and some good info.

Stephen T. Abedon (1998) Microbiology Lecture. http://www.mansfield.ohio-state.edu/~sabedon/biol4035.htm

3/ Download the brewers laboratory handbook. Some good no nonsense info.

Brewing Science Institute (2003) Brewers Laboratory Handbook PDF Download www.brewingscience.com

Some good reading in here !!!


----------



## Wreck

I was digging through my fridge and found a first generation yeast that is over a year old now. I've also got a 3rd generation of the same yeast, that would only be a few months old. 

Which is better to use? The older, closer to the original yeast, or the fresher version?

Thanks,
Wreck.


----------



## pint of lager

Tough call.

Usually you go for the sample closer to the original source, but yours is old. It will kick up, start with a small volume starter around 100ml and when it is working step up.

The fresher more recent sample will kick up quicker but with a greater risk of some sort of contamination.

Depends on your level of cleanliness and how good you are at picking problems in your starters. 

I don't think I could recommend one over the other. Maybe you could start both of them up and try them both.

It may be time to get a fresh sample.


----------



## pint of lager

Brissybrewer took the time to write up his method of splitting commercial liquid yeasts in the following topic. Frozen smackpack topic.




> How to Split a white labs tube
> 
> EQUIPMENT
> Test Tubes 18mm plastic with screw cap lid (autoclaveable)
> Distilled Water (I use demineralised water sold for Irons)
> 1 x Syringe Reusable Soda Lime Glass (autoclaveable)
> 1 x 13 Gauge reusable stainless steel needle (largest gauge as yeast slurry is think and hard to suck up)
> 
> Miscellaneous equipment
> A Pressure Cooker (ensure you buy a high pressure cooker that holds 15psi, some pressure cookers do not achieve this)
> Test Tube Rack (one that fits inside your pressure cooker)
> 1 spray bottle full of idophor
> 1 flame source (I use one of those portable butane burners)
> 
> PROCEDURE
> 
> Preparation:
> 1. Fill each test tube with 5ml of distilled water.
> 2. Cap Test Tubes and place upright in autoclave
> 3. Autoclave tubes and syringe and needle at 15psi for 25 minutes (ensure that you time it from when the steam starts to blow off at 15psi pressure relief setting, allow air to vent for a couple minutes then reduce heat and ensure slow escape from the pressure valve at 15psi for the remainder of the time)
> 4. Allow Tubes to cool inside the autoclave (if you remove the tubes and crash cool them and they will suck in dirty air and be more susceptible to infection)
> 
> Now you have your tubes read for use, if you have prepared more tubes then you care to use at once, sanitise your hands, put gloves on and sanitise your gloves then screw tube caps tight and place in the refrigerator for later use.
> 
> Sanitise
> 1. Sanitise Everything by wiping down all your benches equipment and anything in the area with idophor I suggest for surface sanitation to use a 50ppm concentration. After wiping everything down use a spray bottle containing idophor to spray all surfaces again including your arms and hands. At this point wipe your spray bottle down.
> 2. Put a face mask on if you have one surgical grade 2 or better preferably.
> 3. Turn on your flame (work close to your flame)
> 4. Put rubber gloves on, unless youre a double gloving spray your gloves with idophor as well.
> 5. Spray your test tubes and rack with idophor
> 
> Sterile Transfer Technique
> 1 Loosen caps on all test tubes so they are just sitting there.
> 2 Loosen cap on your white labs vial
> 3 Remove Syringe and Needle for foil wrap used in Autoclave
> 4 With the needle in one hand and the white labs vial on your bench-top take a deep breath and do the following whilst working close to your flame.
> 5 Flame needle just before dipping into white labs vial, the wort on top will cool the needle before you draw the slurry which has settled on the bottom, it will be difficult to draw up.
> 6 With one hand remove cap from vial draw up 5ml of slurry
> 7 Replace cap on white labs vial
> 8 Lift each test tube cap with one hand and inject 0.5 to 1ml of slurry in each tube and loosely replace cap
> 9 If you need to do more tubes repeat steps 5 to 8 otherwise put down syringe.
> 10 Lightly spray all loose caps and tubes from the top with idophor.
> 11 Spray gloves again
> 12 Remove one test tube at a time and screw cap up tightly and give a mild shake side to side.
> 13 Label and Place in fridge for later use
> 
> Bringing your stored yeast back to life
> 
> Sterile wort preparation
> 1. You need to prepare some wort 1030 to 1040 (unhoped)), try and achieve a good hot break because you will get more hot break in the autoclave again.
> 2. Insert 5mls into a number of test tubes
> 3. Autoclave for 25min
> 4. Allow to cool naturally and then tightly cap
> 5. Store in fridge for another day
> 
> The Yeast Awakening.
> 1. Take one test tube of sterile wort, and one test tube of yeast under distilled water.
> 2. Shake your test tube of yeast and distilled
> 3. Follow the sanitise steps above.
> 4. Over your flame pore your distilled water and yeast solution into your wort tube.
> 5. Cap shake and wait a day or two before it come alive it will release C02 when uncapped, warning beware of mini volcanos.


----------



## lucas

chiller said:


> Transfer the beer off the cake and remove all the beer [not the yeast] Pour 500ml of your sterile water into the fermenter and give it a very good swill around to mix the yeast and water, now with the sanitised beer glass collect enough of the yeast solution to almost fill one of the jars. Shake it really well and lightly seal it and set it in the fridge for about 10 - 15 minutes. The heavy material will drop and you can now pour the top 3/4 of the liquid into the other jar and top up with sterile water.
> 
> Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the other jar. After the 10 minutes pour the milky yeast liquid into the 2nd jar and top up with sterile water. Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the first jar. Now pour the top 3/4 of the liquid into the other jar and top up with sterile water. Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the 3 small sample jars.


I get very lost reading this part. can someone go through and perhaps label each jar a and b so i can understand which jar im adding the sterile water to and which jar im supposed to be sanatising?

or perhaps what the end result is in simple terms? am i trying to wash out all the sugars so its just sterile water and yeast at the end? so the jar kept is always the one with sediment?

thanks,

lucas


----------



## tangent

i agree
it' all the "that jar"s that make it confusing.
if it read jarA jarB etc. maybe it's run a bit smoother.
that's why i'm keen on a Krotchrot video on the process


----------



## pint of lager

For another take on yeast washing, have a read of this Wyeast link.

Both the Wyeast site and the Whitelabs site have very inetersting FAQs and eductaion areas. Any budding yeast user should read these thoroughly. Also, any budding farmer should check out Sosman's brewiki site, he gathered all the yeast farming links he could find onto one page plus includes pictures of his own efforts.


----------



## lucas

ok, so i want to try this with the yeast from a starter I made but ended up not needing. its in a 1.25L soft drink bottle and has 3-4mm of yeast settled on the bottom. is there anything extra i can do to get the most possible yeast from it that mightnt be possible with a whole fermenter? ie. will refridgerating it before pouring off the starter beer make more yeast settle to the bottom?


----------



## Dunkel_Boy

What a great thread. What (chiller, POL) kind of effects do you think cleaning has on the yeast? I assume that is what you're doing with all the sterlised water, but is the stress on the yeast significant, and if so, necessary?

I would also like to compile a list of commercial brews (Guiness, Chimay, Hoegaarden, etc.) that have our favourite yeasts ready for us to steal, and if they use a different yeast (Coopers), a note for that.


----------



## Stuster

This link will help you with the latter. Not sure about the former, but I have been using this method and have had quite quick start times when reviving the yeast and similar fermentation characteristics, so it looks like some of the wee beasties are surviving well.


----------



## Dunkel_Boy

Stuster said:


> This link will help you with the latter. Not sure about the former, but I have been using this method and have had quite quick start times when reviving the yeast and similar fermentation characteristics, so it looks like some of the wee beasties are surviving well.
> [post="116723"][/post]​



Thanks for the link. To tell you the truth, I've been over at the Green Screen too much, and cleaning/washing yeast is probably less stressful than throwing into hot water, strong wort, or making it compete with bacteria.

Cheers.


----------



## chug!chug!

Im just getting into liquid yeasts. First off whitelabs english ale. 
Made first starter no dramas and poured off 500mls for next time.
Next starter had sanitation issue and rejected due to off taste :blink: :excl: .
Returned to fridge. Two weeks later sediment has a darker brown layer over the usual light brown yeast colour. 
Can I save this yeast with the chiller method??? 
I have started anyway for practice and plan to restart from the 50ml sample and see how it goes.....


----------



## pint of lager

Chug, general rule of yeast work. If in doubt, chuck it out. Always have a pack of good dried yeast as a backup.

Knowing if a starter is ok or not is a skill learned. Start with a regular liquid yeast and make a starter. Keep sniffing and tasting. Then as your yeast work becomes more complex, and you start with smaller amounts of viable yeast, you have a good basis to assess your starter quality.

If your yeast has any issues, it is definitely not a candidate for any method, chuck it out.

Keep reading, learning, sniffing and tasting. Be as clean and sanitary at every stage of yeast work.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

I've harvested 3 jars of yeast as described above about 3 weeks ago and they have happily been sitting in the fridge.

Last night I decided to fire one up. I used 10g of LDME in about 100ml and boiled this for the requsite time. I let one of the jars come back up to room temp. I then poured off most of the water in the jar and added the yeast solution to the cooled wort.

Now my question is - what should the yeast smell like? The jar had a fairly pungent smell, but I put this down to it being yeast. 

Unsure I left the culture to fire up overnight. I had a look this morning and it appears to look and smell fine with a good yeast bed and a thick krausen.

Am I stressing? Have I got an infection? Or does harvested yeast have an unpleasant smell?

Cheers


----------



## DJR

Cortez The Killer said:


> Am I stressing? Have I got an infection? Or does harvested yeast have an unpleasant smell?
> 
> Cheers



You'd be surprised how much smell a yeast can generate - taste the starter and you should be able to tell if there is anything weird going on. If it tastes sour, overly sulphuric or overly funky then be worried about it. But it sounds like you should be OK. Remember you are growing yeast not making beer.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

I stepped the culture up to 500ml on saturday and pitched yesterday - smelt and tasted just fine

Cheers

I think I just needed a bit of reassurance - cause everyone around me was telling me how bad it smelt


----------



## Yeasty

Ive started yeast collecting...(its a pitty they cant go along side the collector models in the display  )

How many times can i safely "wash" the yeast without losing it all?

Ive collected the trub from my fermentor. I had say a cup of it. It had the remains of hop pellets in it as well, so it was nice and greenish in colour.

So far i mixed it with sterile water in a jar and shaken it, then let sit, and poured off the top into the new jar and refilled about 4-5 times.

Im getting closer to a whitish sort of build up in the bottom, but the liquid still comes out a little greenish.

Im going to have to let the jar sit overnight now, so do i wake up tomorrow and pour off the top liquid, then fill with sterile water and shake?

Then do i let that sit for 24hrs again?

once its close to being a clear liquid on top, do i then transfer what i have to smaller containers for the fridge?

Anyone got any whitelabs tubes i could have?


----------



## Franko

Yeasty,
you can buy tubes from here
ProSciTech

Franko


----------



## Yeasty

cheers

does - AUD19.00 /pk/50

mean for $19 u get a pack of 50? Im having a beer moment


----------



## Franko

Yeasty said:


> cheers
> 
> does - AUD19.00 /pk/50
> 
> mean for $19 u get a pack of 50? Im having a beer moment



you've got it one all 50 of em for $19


----------



## Yeasty

well after rinsing through the trub about 4-5 times last night i had to let it sit in the fridge overnight. I woke up this morning and there was a thin yeast layer in the bottom of the jar. (i basically ony collected the cloudy liquid last night after each settling)

Now the liquid on top was a very clear light green. I tipped that off, and refilled with streile water, and i shook that up which is now a very yeast white colour 

Im very happy with what ive collected. Now to buy some test tubes


----------



## devo

Hey fella's

Found a pretty good yeast starter time laps experiment on youtube. worth a gander


----------



## warrenlw63

Huh!!  I'll be buggered.

You would have thought that No. 3 would be the hands down winner... Now that's a bit of a suprise. I like the way the rubber glove looked like it was waving. :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## devo

yes, I was thinking the same so i guess I won't be rushing out to buy an oxygen set up now.

personally I would have taped down all the fingers except the middle one..


----------



## warrenlw63

devo said:


> personally I would have taped down all the fingers except the middle one..




:lol: :lol: 24 hours and the starter is at the "bird" phase. 

Warren -


----------



## Lukes

Popped into G&G late last week and they had a heap of 6 month yeasties in the bottom of the fridge from when Dave was out touring.

Save's farming.  

- Luke


----------



## devo

I've been quite impressed with the yeast I harvested from a stubbie of Coopers Sparkling ale which is sutible for a variety of ales and stouts. 

At under $3.00 a stubby, that's pretty good value.


----------



## lucas

Lukes said:


> Popped into G&G late last week and they had a heap of 6 month yeasties in the bottom of the fridge from when Dave was out touring.
> 
> Save's farming.
> 
> - Luke


heh... I'd decided I was going to cough up for a pack of 3068 on saturday and found they didnt have any > 6 months old OR in date. trying to culture whatevers in the moo brew wheat at home right now as i suspect it might be what I'm after


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Quick question guys,

I have no light dry malt extract. 
Is it ok to use dark liquid malt extract when making a nice big starter for Saturday?

Cheers
DK


----------



## razz

No probs DK, I've been using Coopers beer kits to make my starters for years.


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

razz said:


> No probs DK, I've been using Coopers beer kits to make my starters for years.



Cool, thanks. 

I thought as much but beter to be safe than sorry after forking out $16.50 for a WLP500.  

Cheers


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

razz said:


> No probs DK, I've been using Coopers beer kits to make my starters for years.




I used to do this until I realised that a 20litre starter is really just a batch of beer... h34r:


----------



## razz

I'm only using 1/2 or 2/3 cup of kit for a 1 lt starter.


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Hey razz, do you just add the extract to a couple of cups of boiling water to disolve it then tip it into a bottle and carry on as normal?


----------



## Cortez The Killer

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I used to do this until I realised that a 20litre starter is really just a batch of beer... h34r:



Haha  That's gold!  

Cheers


----------



## brettprevans

just want to clarify (after reading the thread)

I only want to reuse the slurry straight away for next brew (wyeast 1098). So I just pour off 500ml or so of the slurry into a sterile container.

Sterilze the fermentor, then go on and make wort as usual. then chuck in the 500ml of slurry into fermentor. all done?


----------



## Stuster

Yep. That's it. Easy.  

The one thing to be careful of is making sure the wort and the yeast are at pretty much the same temperature before you pitch it as otherwise the temperature difference can shock the yeast and make it go dormant or even cause them to mutate. :blink:


----------



## brettprevans

Stuster said:


> Yep. That's it. Easy.
> 
> The one thing to be careful of is making sure the wort and the yeast are at pretty much the same temperature before you pitch it as otherwise the temperature difference can shock the yeast and make it go dormant or even cause them to mutate. :blink:


noted re temp. they should roughly be about 18C when I do it, so it should be fine.

thx stuster


----------



## Kingy

note: jar(a) is the one jar im using and i have a seperate 2litres of sterile water


so in simple terms you guys are putting the water in the jar (a). With the yeast slurry and shaking the jar(a)and then let it settle. Then pour out and dispose of the liquid. Then repeat rinsing and disposing of the liquid out of jar(a) untill the liquid becomes clear. With the yeast settled to the bottum. and this jar (a) is what you make a starter with.

or geez i can hardly understand my post i hope you can

cheers kingy

ive read this topic about 5 times now and i think ive finally worked it out


----------



## hughman666

yep that's basically it.

what i'm doing is getting the slurry and letting the yeast settle out in the fridge. then pour off most of the liquid, shake up and then split into test tubes. you will then see the yeast in these settle out in time in the fridge.

use these for your starters each time you brew. i'm getting approx 4 full whitelabs tubes out of each slurry.


----------



## ohitsbrad

I need a few questions answered. I collected the yeast (US56) cake from my fermenter about a week ago and have kept it in the fridge in a 2L bottle topped up with (boiled and cooled) water. Two or three times I have poured of the water and replaced with fresh water.

Yesterday I made a starter with 100g DME and 1 litre of water. I then added about 1/3 to 1/2 cup of the yeast slurry to the starter, shook well, and have stored at room temperature. There is a frothy head on the starter now, and a thin layer of lighter yeast at the bottom.

First question is, if I want to step up the starter to 2 litres, after adding the extra starter wort, should I shake up the bottle of starter again?

Secondly, the starter appears pretty dark, see below. Is this ok?







I plan to pitch on Saturday.


----------



## chris.taylor.98

With relatively fresh yeast (<2weeks old) you don't really need a starter at all, especially with the amount you have collected as slurry.

If you really want to do a starter you could easily just go straight to 2 liters with the yeast in this condition.

Should probably be asking why you want to do a starter here. Usually you only need to do one when 
i) you have yeast that is older and you want to make sure it is still viable.
ii) you don't have enough viable yeast and you need to step it up to higher quantity

Cheers

Chris


----------



## chris.taylor.98

... and now that I have actually read the question properly 

no don't shake up the starter again as the active yeast with that much CO2 in it is going to go everywhere. If you want to add more aerated wort then but in into a separate santised container, shake it up, then add into the starter.


The colour looks fine.

The very fact that it is already krausened like this in a very short time shows that it is very healthy yeast and pretty much ready to go without having to do much else to it.


----------



## ohitsbrad

I thought I would do a starter since I wanted to use only some of the yeast I collected, and keep the rest in the fridge for future. To be honest I had no idea if this third or half cup of slurry would be enough or suitable at 2 weeks old.

Thanks. I figure I can leave it as is until Friday night, when I'll cool it in the fridge and pitch from cold on Saturday afternoon. This won't be too long a lag time will it? And I was going to pour off the beer on top and pitch the slurry only, I assume this will be ok too.


----------



## chris.taylor.98

well the yeast that you have already brewed with actually be better second or third time around if you can keep reusing it every couple of weeks.

( some micro breweries even go up to 10 times or more, but you want to make sure you have good sanitation practices to do this ).

If you want a better guide to the amount of yeast you need to pitch, try this calculator:

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Although I usually find it a bit on the conservative side.

Yes you can go ahead and cold shock, then poor the liquid off the top and just pitch the slurry. Although I usually try and time my starter so that it is quite active when I'm ready to pitch, then pour the whole thing in. This results in really short lag times.

With the way that starter took off I don't think you will have any problems with lag time.

Generally you either:
i) time the starter so that the yeast has multiplied out and is just starting to take off.
ii) if you need a particularly large starter and/or don't want the starter wort in the brew then let the starter ferment out and cold shock and add just the slurry.

When you have a fairly clean starter wort ( as you do with the DME ) you can pitch the whole thing with out too many worries.


----------



## matti

I brewed a lager earlier this year, Fresh Wort Kit, and harvested the yeast from primary.
I pitched two sachets of rehydrated W34/70.
This was harvested from primary after ten day as the beer was racked.
The yeast smelled beautiful and I used this for my my last lager which I racked today.

I managed to harvest some more but not sure if this a good idea.

I am not sure if lager yeast is suitable to harvest if it has been in primary with a bit of trub.

Will washing the yeast sort things out?

Would the yeast have mutated sitting in the trub and not worth harvesting?

I understand that it is recommended that you should only harvest yeast that has had a clean ferment.
This time it may not be the case, since there was a presence of sulphur.

Cheers 
matti


----------



## skeet

thanks for your help

a good easy understood guide.


----------



## Hefty

I've just tried harvesting for the first time from a brew using us-05. What I ended up with were 3 small samples of thick creamy slurry. Is this correct or should I have added cooled sanitised water one last time to make more of a milky/watery sample?
I figure either way it will settle out to a thick deposit at the bottom, is there any reason more water above the deposit will be beneficial? I'm keen to know so I can make sure I'm not ruining these samples.

Cheers!
Jono.


----------



## Lobsta

hmm, i have a mate at uni with access to the microbiology labs... could be useful. sterile, temp controlled growth fridges. sterile agar plates... hmm...

Lobby


----------



## Sprungmonkey

Is there any reason why people use slants (agar media with nutrient) to innoculate yeast rather than just using a broth with nutrient or just peptone water? Wouldn't it eliminate having to plate onto agar (or in a slope tube)?

I havn't done any culturing of yeast before but had a little bit of experience innoculating food pathogens for identification. I have always just used a broth and transfer from one broth to the next.


----------



## olskoolsoulja

germs cant grow in agar


----------



## Sprungmonkey

Im not sure if this is correct. Agar is justed used as it allows for a solid medium to grow on. What grows depends on the nutrients and environment (eg temp, pH etc.). If bacteria didn't grow on it then we wouldn't have to have such aspetic techniques.


----------



## chiller

Sprungmonkey said:


> Is there any reason why people use slants (agar media with nutrient) to innoculate yeast rather than just using a broth with nutrient or just peptone water? Wouldn't it eliminate having to plate onto agar (or in a slope tube)?
> 
> I havn't done any culturing of yeast before but had a little bit of experience innoculating food pathogens for identification. I have always just used a broth and transfer from one broth to the next.



With the Agar the yeast live basically on the surface and use only that nutrient that they contact. They go into hibernation for the want of a better word because of a lack of nutrient to go into a full reproduction cycle.. If you introduce them into a fluid medium that has a nutrient source they can reproduce until they exhaust the nutrient supply. The can easily, physically spread through the medium. Using a slant you put them "to sleep" for 6 months - 2 or more years. As soon as you introduce a nutrient rich solution they revive and begin their work.

Darren is probably the best qualified in a technical sense to give the full story on the whys of "small critters"

Steve


----------



## Sprungmonkey

Okay. Just deciding on which way to go.

How much shelf life do liquid yeast companies have on their cultures -- 6mths?


----------



## chiller

Sprungmonkey said:


> Okay. Just deciding on which way to go.
> 
> How much shelf life do liquid yeast companies have on their cultures -- 6mths?




I'm not certain but the figure is often date of manufacture. I popped a 5 year old Wyeast Belgian the other day and it was ready to go into a starter within 24 hours.It has already brewed a beer and will be harvested for "many" to come. I have also used WhiteLabs vials that are 2 - 3 years old and had then up and started within a short space of time. I don't know for certain but Lager yeast seem to me [and this is only my observation] to be less robust. Better to get fresh if you can.


----------



## chiller

olskoolsoulja said:


> germs cant grow in agar



That seems an interesting reply. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you have a broader knowledge on this matter and accept that you are frustrated at our complete lack of comprehension on this topic and thus have replied in the curt manner you have - or - you don't have a clue and your post is a waste of time.

Apparently there is an Agar medium that things don't grow on and this could be the point of your post but without explanation it leaves me wondering at your reply. 

In the topic we are talking about yeast and just about everything else will grow on the medium so care has to be taken to transfer only the yeast to the slant.


----------



## quadbox

I'm not a microbiologist (more into the myriad ways of making things go boom ), but as I understand it the second major reason for culturing on agar instead of in a liquid medium is because the lack of contact with nutrients limits the amount of reproducing the yeast actually does, and so you dont constantly increment the generation count. For all intents and purposes no matter how many times you transfer from slant to slant over the course of a few years you've still got pretty much generation 0, with sfa mutation.

Whereas if you split and grow starters, you're pretty much incrementing the generation every time, as there's a significantly larger (and more active) number of yeast cells in play in each starter, even if it's only a very small starter


----------



## Sprungmonkey

Interesting -- not too sure. Slant to slant, inoculation broth to inoculation broth, tomato tomato. Don't know if there is any difference in generations and possible mutations. Activity of the yeast should be limited purely due to refigeration storage. I can however see your point regarding nutrient availability on slants. I don't know how critical it is at refrigeration temps. I might have to try both and look at the viability of yeasts slant vs broth.


----------



## chiller

Sprungmonkey said:


> Interesting -- not too sure. Slant to slant, inoculation broth to inoculation broth, tomato tomato. Don't know if there is any difference in generations and possible mutations. Activity of the yeast should be limited purely due to refigeration storage. I can however see your point regarding nutrient availability on slants. I don't know how critical it is at refrigeration temps. I might have to try both and look at the viability of yeasts slant vs broth.




Let us know in about 5 years. That is the oldest slants i have that I have revived and used.


----------



## Sprungmonkey

Going to a liquid yeast night at brewers choice on wednesday night wiht hte guys from white labs
Ill ask them and let you know.


----------



## chiller

Sprungmonkey said:


> Going to a liquid yeast night at brewers choice on wednesday night wiht hte guys from white labs
> Ill ask them and let you know.





You will really enjoy the night I attended one with Chris white from Whitelabs and at another time Dave from Wyeast. Very informative.


----------



## pint of lager

Yeast farming is one facet in brewing that some people get very involved with.

Growing yeast on agar in petri dishes is done to isolate single colonies. At the same time, if a sample is infected (yes, germs happily grow on agar) yeast colonies can be removed from the infected plate and restreaked on a fresh uninfected plate. This process demands sterile conditions. The macro shape of the yeast colony can also be used to distinguish good and poor quality yeast. The process requires a high level of skill and knowledge. Many different yeasts can be kept on plates, these can then be used to make small starters, then stepped up.

Growing yeast on slants also demands skill and sterile conditions. Germs will once again grow happily on your agar. A slant is some agar solution in a test tube. The test tube is rested on an angle, while the agar is setting, this gives a larger surface area for yeast to grow on. Yeast is innoculated onto the surface. After a week or so, there is plenty of yeast growing and any infections will be visible. It requires a good understanding of working with sterile transfers. A small amount of starter wort is added to the tube, this is allowed to ferment and then stepped up a number of times untill there is enough active yeast to pitch to a full sized brew.

Storing yeast samples in small sample jars under beer or water will not allow you to judge if the yeast is infected till you grow a starter up and taste it.

Anyone interested should hunt up Sosman's yeast wiki. This includes many links to useful sites that clearly outline the involved process of slants, sterile water storage and plates.

Remeber, every beer is infected, it just depends with what and to what degree. The only time you can say a yeast is not infected is when it has been activly growing on a plate for a week and only shows yeast colonies. Once you expose wort to the air, it will be infected.


----------



## Sprungmonkey

Thanks pint of lager - this make more sense as to why you use slants over broths (ie easy identification of contamination).

I guess the only other way to look at an innoculated broth sample to see if it is contaminated is to put a sample under a microscope. Yeast cell are quite different (and larger) than normal bacterial cells. The only trouble is wild yeast cells which are a little harder to differientate.

When tasting a starter what does a infected starter taste like in comparison to a sterile starter?


----------



## pint of lager

Broth is a soup term that is not used in brewing. You are making wort and beer, not broth.

You are storing large samples in bottles/jars/test tubes under either water or beer.

You are storing small samples on either slants or petri dishes. The agar solution also includes malt as nutrient for the yeast.

If you use petri dishes streaked correctly, the colonies are isolated, they grow as discrete dots on the agar, wherever one yeast cell has been inocculated, one dot of yeast grows. Poor streaking makes the yeast appear as lines on the agar substrate. The shape and size of the yeast colony is used as one way to distinguish a good yeast. Select uniformly shaped and sized dots, not the funny shaped, coloured or sized dot. It takes about 4-7 days to start from a few match heads of yeast from a petri dish to step up to a decent sized starter ready for pitching in a 20 litre wort.

Taste all your starters and fermenting worts. Different yeasts show different characteristics as they ferment. There is no firm taste test to say what is infected or wrong.

If you go the microscope path, you are going to need a good one, capable of 1,000x. Better to spend that money on a pressure cooker and some glassware.


----------



## olskoolsoulja

English people.

I said inagar. my 9 grade science teacher told me(last year) that agar is like a sponge and the nutrient sits in all the little holes, agar is the best gelling agent and it comes from seaweed mostly from Japan. I hope you found somthing interesting there.


----------



## pint of lager

olskoolsoulja said:


> English people.
> 
> I said inagar. my 9 grade science teacher told me(last year) that agar is like a sponge and the nutrient sits in all the little holes, agar is the best gelling agent and it comes from seaweed mostly from Japan. I hope you found somthing interesting there.


Good to see you were paying attention in school.

You may have noticed that in good microbiological practice, any prepared petri dish or slant is sterilised. This means that any germs in or on the agar are destroyed. If there were any germs in the agar, there would certainly be some also on the surface which would render the plate useless. You may also have noticed that yeast work occurs on the surface of the agar, rather than in the agar. Have a read of the links posted earlier in this thread.


----------



## Sprungmonkey

pint of lager said:


> Broth is a soup term that is not used in brewing. You are making wort and beer, not broth.
> 
> You are storing large samples in bottles/jars/test tubes under either water or beer.
> 
> You are storing small samples on either slants or petri dishes. The agar solution also includes malt as nutrient for the yeast.
> 
> Taste all your starters and fermenting worts. Different yeasts show different characteristics as they ferment. There is no firm taste test to say what is infected or wrong.
> 
> If you go the microscope path, you are going to need a good one, capable of 1,000x. Better to spend that money on a pressure cooker and some glassware.



Sorry pint of lager - couple of other questions.

Do you or anyone else use nutrients other than just malt (ie. minerals vitamins which aid to more efficient fermentation, etc). 

The term broth is used a microlab I work close with and is used when describing any culture in solution but anyhow. 

The cultured solution I was planning on trying out would be in test tubes with nutrient and peptone water.

I can run a test to see the difference between both methods (slant / cultured solution) and look at the viability of yeast cells as they move though the lag phase to the death phase. This should basically tell me which method would have the longest shelf life. Luckly I have acess to a micro lab and a work mate who is a microbiologist.

I do however tend to agree with using slant tubes with regards to being able to selectively choose "good" looking cultures growing on the surface.

One last thing on the tasting of starter culture prior to pitching - even though there is no defined contaminated / not contaminated indicator can you tell by the taste that, yes this is infected and therefore shouldn't use it. I guess what i am trying to say is that if i taste it will i know yup its infected or no it should be okay.


----------



## pint of lager

I use some Wyeast yeast propogation nutrient blend, just a small amount scaled from a starter wort back to the volume being used to make the agar medium. Also, malt extract is used, at the same ratio for a starter sg, 1.040 which is 100 gms DME per litre of water.

With regards to the term broth, have never seen it come up in the reading on yeast culturing. Obviously you find it a common term in relation to your microbiological knowledge.

One method with yeast storage is to maintain a small amount of yeast in sterile (not demineralised) water in the coldest part of the fridge. Have a read of Graham Sander's article on craftbrewer.org which outlines this method.

Many people do report being able to revive very old yeast samples, either from slants, commercial packs from Whitelabs and Wyeast and from yeast sediments in bottles. My concern about stretching this is that we are selecting the yeast on longetivity rather than its ability to brew a good beer. Each method does work, but once the yeast starts propogating, do we only have mutated cells. To test for this is going to take more than looking through a microscope. The general concensus is whatever method you use, revive the yeast every 6-12 months, reculture (or reslant) and then store back away.

Commercial yeast strain banks are kept frozen.

There is no known taste test that will definitively say, infected or not. What i do is to sterilise the starter wort for the first two steps (20ml and 200ml in erlenmeyer flasks in a pressure cooker) and do the transfers as aseptically as possible, minimising infections. The only way you can definitively say, no it is not infected is on the grown out agar plate, or by looking through a microscope at a sample of your wort. There are test kits for commercial breweries, but they will not confirm wild yeasts. Often a starter will taste funky, but that is due to fresh yeast byproducts.

Lucky you having access to a microbiological lab. Make sure your friend shows you how to prepare plates, streak them up and then examine them. Hopefully you end up with some good results and can tell us which method will work the best for long term storage in a homebrew environment.


----------



## the_fuzz

Ok,

I've been farming for a little bit, just harvesting the slurry from previous brews. Tomorrow I should have my first liquid yeast arriving in the mail (Wyeast 1056) and this is my plan:

I have about 10 sterialised 50ml vials
I was going to not smack the pack
Then I was going to open the pack and use a siringe to remove the yeast and break it up into the 10 vials - Approx 10ml of yeast per vial. 
Then I was going to place sterile water on top and place into the fridge

When required, step up from the 10ml of yeast small and go from there

What is wrong with my plan? Can liquid yeast go straight under sterile water? Or is this somehow harmful?

Cheers
Mick


----------



## Sprungmonkey

Whats_Wrong_with_Hahn said:


> Ok,
> 
> I've been farming for a little bit, just harvesting the slurry from previous brews. Tomorrow I should have my first liquid yeast arriving in the mail (Wyeast 1056) and this is my plan:
> 
> I have about 10 sterialised 50ml vials
> I was going to not smack the pack
> Then I was going to open the pack and use a siringe to remove the yeast and break it up into the 10 vials - Approx 10ml of yeast per vial.
> Then I was going to place sterile water on top and place into the fridge
> 
> When required, step up from the 10ml of yeast small and go from there
> 
> What is wrong with my plan? Can liquid yeast go straight under sterile water? Or is this somehow harmful?
> 
> Cheers
> Mick




I don't see any major issues but why would you put water on top. If it was me and I was dividing up yeast that way, I would just divide them and leave them. You should try culturing onto agar slants. It not too hard and yeast will last longer.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

Found an interesting article on yeast handling methods and laboratory methods

Haven't seen it posted here before

It's quite interesting with respect to sterilisation when using slants or dishes

http://www.phys.ksu.edu/gene/g1.html

Cheers


----------



## the_fuzz

Sprungmonkey said:


> I don't see any major issues but why would you put water on top. If it was me and I was dividing up yeast that way, I would just divide them and leave them. You should try culturing onto agar slants. It not too hard and yeast will last longer.




I would have thought it would stop expose to air that is stuck in the vial - just like when you farm slurry - you put sterile water ontop of the yeast?

Or is the water not required?


----------



## Trough Lolly

Sprungmonkey said:


> Interesting -- not too sure. Slant to slant, inoculation broth to inoculation broth, tomato tomato. Don't know if there is any difference in generations and possible mutations. Activity of the yeast should be limited purely due to refigeration storage. I can however see your point regarding nutrient availability on slants. I don't know how critical it is at refrigeration temps. I might have to try both and look at the viability of yeasts slant vs broth.




G'day Sprungmonkey,
The other point that's worth considering is what do you want to do with the yeast? Do you need readily accessible yeast that can innoculate the wort same day, or a bank of yeast cultures that you can make starters from before brewday? Chiller and PoL have given you plenty of info and there's no need to get into slants or plating out cells on agar if you need a short term storage solution for your yeast (eg, sterile jars with washed slurry). I have a number of strains that I regularly use and inevitably they're stored as slurry in 600ml PET bottles ready to go in a few hours. 

Chiller - concur with your thoughts earlier re the viability of certain strains that are 2+ years old. I too have observed plenty of good ferments with old 1056 / 1084 / 1028 / 1968 etc but when I build up elderly starters of lager strains eg Wyeast 2000 / 2124 / 2633, they can be something of a lottery despite good aeseptic protocols and accurate temperature control!

Cheers,
TL


----------



## braufrau

olskoolsoulja said:


> germs cant grow in agar




OK ... not in but on ... here's lots of germs growing on agar ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar_plate


----------



## Sprungmonkey

Trough Lolly said:


> G'day Sprungmonkey,
> The other point that's worth considering is what do you want to do with the yeast? Do you need readily accessible yeast that can innoculate the wort same day, or a bank of yeast cultures that you can make starters from before brewday? Chiller and PoL have given you plenty of info and there's no need to get into slants or plating out cells on agar if you need a short term storage solution for your yeast (eg, sterile jars with washed slurry). I have a number of strains that I regularly use and inevitably they're stored as slurry in 600ml PET bottles ready to go in a few hours.
> 
> Chiller - concur with your thoughts earlier re the viability of certain strains that are 2+ years old. I too have observed plenty of good ferments with old 1056 / 1084 / 1028 / 1968 etc but when I build up elderly starters of lager strains eg Wyeast 2000 / 2124 / 2633, they can be something of a lottery despite good aeseptic protocols and accurate temperature control!
> 
> Cheers,
> TL


Cheers TL I am trying to build up a bank of yeasts and therefore make starters prior to using. This will eventually allow me to pick and choose as to which yeast I want to use.


----------



## Sprungmonkey

Anyone tried to put coopers yeast from a bottle onto a slant for later use. Also is the yeast for pale ale and sparkling ale the same?


----------



## BoilerBoy

Sprungmonkey said:


> Anyone tried to put coopers yeast from a bottle onto a slant for later use. Also is the yeast for pale ale and sparkling ale the same?



The yeast is the same, but I wouldn't see any point storing it on slants as its readily available, even a single stubbie is all thats needed to culture the yeast if your patient

Cheers,
BB


----------



## Gavo

Hi, I would just like to thank "chiller" for his info on yeast farming. I am new to doing anything other than straight K&K and would never have thought I could reuse yeast and therefore would have allways thought again before buying a specialty yeast. So I decided to give it a go with SafAle 05 yeast and found that I was a easy process, although I think I lost some yeast as I left the last change to long and some of the yeast had settled before I poured it off. 
I then proceeded to make my first yeast starter from one of the small bottles and the brew has started quite well  , I used some small jam bottles as they were all I have at present. Anyway I have uploaded some photos of my results. I haven't quite finised cleaning the yeast yet so the water is still slightly cloudy. 
View attachment 20578
View attachment 20579


----------



## ~MikE

Sprungmonkey said:


> Anyone tried to put coopers yeast from a bottle onto a slant for later use. Also is the yeast for pale ale and sparkling ale the same?



yeah, i've got a slant of it right now. i find it recovers much quicker than it does from a bottle. 

one thing to remember, make two starters - one say 50ml recovery and up it into another larger - say 500ml to buld up the cells. underpitching with coopers is not pleasant and going straight into a 500ml will create some not too pleasant aromas.


----------



## Fourstar

gavo said:


> So I decided to give it a go with SafAle 05 yeast and found that I was a easy process



yest farming is best to be done on liquid yeast. Purely for the effort involved and the cost of the yeast. For the time you spend washing a saf 05, putting to slants and storing you could have saved more on time buy purchasing another $4 packet. Ive been told Dry yeast doesnt hold up that well with multipule generations .

The only thing worthwhile with dry yeast is harvesting some leftover slurry or pitching directly onto the cake. 

For practise i guess its worth the time. better to stuff up a $4 safale than a $15 wyeast!

 

Edit: removed attachments from quote


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Just posted my yeast library in the Yeast Slant Register.

I'm looking to get myself some of Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison if anyone is interested in a swap with one of the yeasts I have.

Shoot me a PM if you are interested

Cheers

TB


----------



## Quintrex

Thirsty Boy said:


> Just posted my yeast library in the Yeast Slant Register.
> 
> I'm looking to get myself some of Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison if anyone is interested in a swap with one of the yeasts I have.
> 
> Shoot me a PM if you are interested
> 
> Cheers
> 
> TB



Too bad thirsty I gave awaay a ton of slurry at the last vic case swap. I might fire another one up soon though if your interested. One of my champagne bottles of saison shot its cork out in the heat yesterday :-(


----------



## therook

Quintrex said:


> Too bad thirsty I gave awaay a ton of slurry at the last vic case swap. I might fire another one up soon though if your interested. One of my champagne bottles of saison shot its cork out in the heat yesterday :-(



I think there is 2 still left in the fridge at home, i can check and see if you want one TB

Rook


----------



## reg

I have one from the Vic case swap if you want it TB

I Live in Werribee if you want to pick up.

Cheers
Reg


----------



## TidalPete

:icon_offtopic: 

And I am looking for a tube of Belgian Witbeir Yeast 3944 (First or second generation).
Am not in the Yeast Slant Library yet but have tubes of quite a few yeasts on hand to swap.

TP :beer:


----------



## cdbrown

Read through the thread and just want to make sure I will be doing this right. Now I've had success in stepping up a smack pack and using six stubbies to be starters for future brews. What I haven't done is reuse yeast.

On a few brews, after pouring off as much beer as I can I've tipped in about 1L of water, swirled it around and then tipped about 1L of the slurry into a PET, put lid on and then stored it in the keg fridge at 2C. Been in there for a couple of months. I'd like to put this lot into stubbies for starters, so when it's time to use it I just need to step it up a few times.

1. Do I need to bring the temperature up to say 18C for ales, 12C for lagers and then tip off the liquid?
2. Pour the equivalent amount of liquid back in, shake and then put back in the fridge to settle? Guess the sterlised water needs to be the same temp?
3. Repeat 1 and then 2? Do I just keep going until the liquid on top is clear and then shake and pour the slurry into stubbies?

Cheers
-cdbrown


----------



## buttersd70

no need to bring it up to temp, cd. Just cool the boiled water to the same current fridge temp.


----------



## cdbrown

Cool - will cool. Time to clean and sanitize those berri apple juice plastic bottles, fill them up with cooled boiled water and chill in the fridge for some yeast washing.


----------



## Alby

Sorry to drag this one out again..but Im confused. 

I dont think Ive read enough Dr Seuss books to follow the 'this jar', 'that jar' instructions and agree with others that jar A, jar B etc might make this easier to follow. Why do I need three jars? Each time I add water and shake it up, then I let it settle and dispose of the water on top of the jar and then refill again? Or am I keeping the water that I tip off? aaaaahh :huh: :huh: :huh: 

Wash Yeast? Which Yeast? Wyeast? This brain has much strain. I tried to refrain from posting again. It is clear that I am going insane and so without further ado its time that I say adieu and go and drink the drink of grain. (again) :icon_cheers:


----------



## gava

Alby said:


> Sorry to drag this one out again..but Im confused.
> 
> I dont think Ive read enough Dr Seuss books to follow the 'this jar', 'that jar' instructions and agree with others that jar A, jar B etc might make this easier to follow. Why do I need three jars? Each time I add water and shake it up, then I let it settle and dispose of the water on top of the jar and then refill again? Or am I keeping the water that I tip off? aaaaahh :huh: :huh: :huh:
> 
> Wash Yeast? Which Yeast? Wyeast? This brain has much strain. I tried to refrain from posting again. It is clear that I am going insane and so without further ado its time that I say adieu and go and drink the drink of grain. (again) :icon_cheers:



I also got a little confused with the post.. I've re-read a few times and think I understand but I agree with the Jar-A etc.. 

I also dont understand what they say to step it up to 50ml 100ml 500ml.. how's this done and why? (i tried a search but couldn't find much)


----------



## technocat

gava said:


> I also got a little confused with the post.. I've re-read a few times and think I understand but I agree with the Jar-A etc..
> 
> I also dont understand what they say to step it up to 50ml 100ml 500ml.. how's this done and why? (i tried a search but couldn't find much)



Dr Smurto wrote a pretty good essay on this very topic on another site he may have repeated it here. His instructions were fairly concise with a good understanding.


----------



## jonocarroll

Alby said:


> Sorry to drag this one out again..but Im confused.
> 
> I dont think Ive read enough Dr Seuss books to follow the 'this jar', 'that jar' instructions and agree with others that jar A, jar B etc might make this easier to follow. Why do I need three jars? Each time I add water and shake it up, then I let it settle and dispose of the water on top of the jar and then refill again? Or am I keeping the water that I tip off? aaaaahh :huh: :huh: :huh:


I agree, it's confusing the way it's written there. Part of it is that you get three layers - trub, yeast, liquid; from bottom to top. Ideally you just want the yeast. I've started doing this with my yeasts to save money on smack-packs - it may not be the 'correct way' but it's worked for me.

0. Boil up some water and pour into glass longnecks, seal with alfoil and allow to cool (anytime before you need them).
1. Bottle/keg as much as you can from the fermenter.
2. Give whatever's left a good swirl to get it all suspended in the remaining liquid (usually a litre or so) = slurry.
3. Sanitise 3 coopers PET bottles.
4. Collect slurry in PET bottles, about 2/3 full.
5. Fill with cooled water (from 0.) to 4/5 full, seal, shake like a british nanny.
6. Place PET bottles in fridge, upright for a couple of days. You will get firmly packed whitish sludge under brownish liquid.
7. Repeat 0.
8. Pour off liquid from PET bottles.
9. Repeat 5, 6, 7, 8.
10. You should end up with firmly packed white sludge under clear liquid.

Caveats;

- This doesn't separate the trub in any specific way. I have no real issue with this. It gets washed pretty well.
- If you don't have enough fluid in the fermenter to swirl properly, add some cooled boiled water.
- You may need to wash more than twice, just repeat 7, 8, 9.
- YMMV.

To get it going again, warm the yeast from fridge temps to ambient temps, tip off most of the liquid, then add to a starter the way you would a Wyeast Propagator smack-pack.

Comments or alterations welcome.


----------



## TidalPete

Adding too much wort to the small amount of yeast in a starter in one go will make the yeasties overfed & lazy so that they will not multiply at the desired rate. Stepping up your starters by increments of 10 solves this problem & allows for good yeast multiplication.

I got a little confused with Chiller's instructions when I first read them years ago & came up with this ---- View attachment Yeast_Farming_etc.doc


TP


----------



## Wardhog

Alby said:


> Wash Yeast? Which Yeast? Wyeast? This brain has much strain. I tried to refrain from posting again. It is clear that I am going insane and so without further ado its time that I say adieu and go and drink the drink of grain. (again) :icon_cheers:



This deserves recognition. Alby, know that someone out there liked it.


Can you do a pale ale recipe in haiku form? I'd brew it.


----------



## drsmurto

Beernut said:


> Dr Smurto wrote a pretty good essay on this very topic on another site he may have repeated it here. His instructions were fairly concise with a good understanding.



I use Chiller's methodology and linked this article so people knew it wasnt my idea. I also linked Batz's starting wyeast thread as i read this several times before using my 1st pack of wyeast. I still have them both bookmarked for easy reference! 

I just changed the wording to help out some people who were having difficulty getting there heads around the whole yeast washing/farming malarky.


----------



## gava

DrSmurto said:


> I use Chiller's methodology and linked this article so people knew it wasnt my idea. I also linked Batz's starting wyeast thread as i read this several times before using my 1st pack of wyeast. I still have them both bookmarked for easy reference!
> 
> I just changed the wording to help out some people who were having difficulty getting there heads around the whole yeast washing/farming malarky.




I'll be interested in reading it...


----------



## apd

QuantumBrewer said:


> 0. Boil up some water and pour into glass longnecks, seal with alfoil and allow to cool (anytime before you need them).
> 1. Bottle/keg as much as you can from the fermenter.
> 2. Give whatever's left a good swirl to get it all suspended in the remaining liquid (usually a litre or so) = slurry.
> ...



Counting from zero. You a programmer perchance?


----------



## gava

apd said:


> Counting from zero. You a programmer perchance?




I was thinking the same thing..


----------



## jonocarroll

apd said:


> Counting from zero. You a programmer perchance?


Yes, of sorts. Nonetheless, it was mainly; (a) I had already entered a few numbers and couldn't be bothered shifting them all up by one, and (b) This step doesn't actually need to be done at the time, in fact I do this hours ahead and let it cool the slow way. If you start at 0 when you want to start bottling, you'll have yeast sitting around while you wait/force water to cool.

Method in my madness...


----------



## chuck_d

Just read through pretty much this whole thread. I picked up some reading material for myself, thanks for all the links. I don't think I saw this page posted though, so I thought I'd link it for you all. Sorry if it's a repost.

Guide to Yeast Culturing by MB Raines 

I base most of my math for calculating starter size and propogation growth factors on the information in this site.


----------



## chadjaja

I too gave this a go today. After racking my APA I emptied out the beer I could and swirled the slurry with 500ml's of the water I boiled and bottled last night. Did the jar, rinse, top up, cool thing 4 times and then split the lot between 5 50ml tubes... All are in the fridge now and every day for a little while I'll check so see how clear the top liquid is and then rinse them off a little if required. There was a stack of liquid left over and the original post on page one said 3X vials. Any reason why I have to waste the rest of the glass jar with yeast in suspension? I filled 5 vials anyway as they are only 50ml ones anyway. 

I think I did everything I should of.

Hopefully all five tubes have a layer of white yeast in 24 hours. Better to practice this stuff with the cheaper saf 05 yeast first up just for something news to try with my brewing.

Does the fact that fermentation hadn't fully finished factor in at all seeing I did it at the racking stage??

When I move onto liquid yeasts I want this all down pat to save money on each brew.


----------



## raven19

chadjaja said:


> Does the fact that fermentation hadn't fully finished factor in at all seeing I did it at the racking stage??



If you are washing the yeast correctly, then most/all of the fermentable sugars have been washed away - hence it wont be a factor as such.


----------



## chadjaja

raven19 said:


> If you are washing the yeast correctly, then most/all of the fermentable sugars have been washed away - hence it wont be a factor as such.



Quote the Raven  

Thanks.


----------



## chadjaja

Geez I know its only been in the vial for 24 hours but there isn't much white yeast at the bottom of the tube. Just a thin layering and damn near liquid up top.


----------



## captaincleanoff

I have a bunch of old white labs tubes that I am going to use for yeast farming.

What would be the best way to clean? I'm not sure that they are autoclavable, so would steaming in a pot be a good idea? 

Or would a spray with starsan be better?


----------



## apd

chadjaja said:


> Geez I know its only been in the vial for 24 hours but there isn't much white yeast at the bottom of the tube. Just a thin layering and damn near liquid up top.



chadjaja,

I know what you mean. All my vials have only ever had a tiny amount of yeast at the bottom. It might be 1ml at best. But working from there, you can step up to the appropriate size using Mr Malty's yeast pitching calculator.

Andrew


----------



## captaincleanoff

I just tried harvesting some 05 as per instructions.. I took 2 big jars full of slurry, and added sterilised water. They've been sitting in the fridge for 4 hours now, and there is absolutely no noticeable separation between the yeast and water... The steps on pg 1 say 10-15 mins..

Anyone else experienced this? Should i just leave them for a few days till they are separated, or am I risking infection?


----------



## kenlock

From page 1



chiller said:


> Next stage is to let the yeast settle out in the sample jars for 24 - 48 hours. You will now have a compact yeast layer and reasonably clean liquid on top. Remove the lid and pour off most of the liquid and replace with your sterile water. Shake well and let settle again for 24 hours. The liquid will now be quite clear, pour this off and replace with sterile water and return to the fridge. Check your samples over the next week and if the water shows any discolouration replace it with fresh sterile water.



You just need to be patient and let the yeast settle. If your in a rush you can drop the temperature by putting the jar in the freezer for a short time.

Cheers Ken

PS. The gas manifold I bought from you is working a treat!


----------



## beerbrewer76543

Can someone clarify the process for me as it is worded poorly?

Is it meant to be:

1. Collect yeast slurry from fermentor in Jar A
2. Leave for 15 min
3. Pour top 3/4 of liquid from Jar A into Jar B
4. Top up Jar B with sterilised water
5. Discard remaining liquid in Jar A
6. Sterilise Jar A
7. Leave for 15 min
8. Repeat steps 3 to 7 four times, saving the top 3/4 of liquid from each transfer
9. Store in fridge for 24-48 hours
10. Discard most of liquid
11. Top up with sterilised water and shake
12. Store in fridge for 24 hours
13. Discard liquid if it is discoloured, otherwise store in fridge until usage

cheers


----------



## jonocarroll

L_Bomb said:


> Can someone clarify the process for me as it is worded poorly?


I attempted to do so above (see here), but I'm not sure if anyone agreed with me. Perhaps it will help you.


----------



## captaincleanoff

what do you guys use for sample jars/test tubes?

i've got some of these ones from www.proscitech.com.au:







they hold about 50ml.. but I'd like to hold a bit more slurry if possible. Does anyone have suggestions as to which tube would be suitable (and autoclavable)?

Also, how do you know if they are autoclavable? I've noticed some of the items say _not_ autoclavable, so if it doesn't say do you presume it is safe? 

I am actually only using a steam cooker type set up, so I doubt it would actually get to the temps of an autoclave. 

How do ppl here sanitise their tubes? Steaming or just with no rinse?


----------



## Gavo

Having an issue here but took a pic to see what others think. Having trouble separating what looks like yeast. Note in the pick the white substance has settled out to the bottom of the jar. This happened very quickly and is lumpy in texture. It also sticks to the bottom of the jar like Nottingham would. 
Yeast is Wyeast 1968, Wyeast's website says _"Yeast traps trub easily and autolysis during storage is accelaerated." _I am thinking of making a starter/ 4-5lt wort to try harvesting a little easier.


----------



## captaincleanoff

is there any problem with freezing samples of yeast slurry?

I noticed that in the other 'similar procedure' links on Pg 1, they add glycerin to the samples, and freeze.

I only have freezer space, so I'm going to have to freeze my samples. Is glycerin necessary for this?


----------



## gap

captaincleanoff said:


> is there any problem with freezing samples of yeast slurry?
> 
> I noticed that in the other 'similar procedure' links on Pg 1, they add glycerin to the samples, and freeze.
> 
> I only have freezer space, so I'm going to have to freeze my samples. Is glycerin necessary for this?




I believe the theory is if you just use water/wort that when freezing the water crystalises and the crystals may rupture the yeast cell walls. Using glycerin is supposed to stop this. 

Have no proof as I do not freeze yeast.

Regards

Graeme


----------



## Maple

Wardhog said:


> This deserves recognition. Alby, know that someone out there liked it.
> 
> 
> Can you do a pale ale recipe in haiku form? I'd brew it.


Hey wardy, try this on...more of an IPA though

Pale, Munich, Carared
Mash at sixty-eight, drain, boil
C hop every five.


----------



## sumo

captaincleanoff said:


> is there any problem with freezing samples of yeast slurry?
> 
> I noticed that in the other 'similar procedure' links on Pg 1, they add glycerin to the samples, and freeze.
> 
> I only have freezer space, so I'm going to have to freeze my samples. Is glycerin necessary for this?



You will definately need to include glycerin in the mixture at a rate of 15 - 25% of the total volume being frozen. I have frozen yeast in this manner many times. You will need to be anal about cleanliness and sterilisation!


----------



## samhighley

gap said:


> I believe the theory is if you just use water/wort that when freezing the water crystalises and the crystals may rupture the yeast cell walls. Using glycerin is supposed to stop this.



Yep, the crystalline structure of the freezing water literally pierces the walls of the yeast cells.

Think of it as a yeast massacre.

If you listen closely, you might even hear them scream.


----------



## brettprevans

i vaguely remember that spillsmostofit froze some of his yeast slurry's etc. maybe give him a PM and see what he says?


----------



## gava

hi,

I use the dried yeast US-05 often in a nice golden ale.. 

Is it worth yeast farming the US-05?


----------



## TidalPete

gava said:


> hi,
> 
> I use the dried yeast US-05 often in a nice golden ale..
> 
> Is it worth yeast farming the US-05?



I do Gava. If it saves you money, why not?

TP


----------



## rich_lamb

chuck_d said:


> Guide to Yeast Culturing by MB Raines
> 
> I base most of my math for calculating starter size and propogation growth factors on the information in this site.



Chuck - do you find this accurate?
The (often reused) graph that Raines provides is complete bollocks in my experience h34r: . I think I've seen another graph from a well circulated site that suggests 10x population increase from using a stirbar.

I find - fairly consistently - that the stirplate tends to give about double the population of a non-agitated starter, and a shaken starter might improve your population by maybe 20-30%. That one's hard to say definitively as shaking is usually a bit ad-hoc.
I can't speak fro aerated starters at all.

Anybody else have a bead on this?


----------



## Gavo

gava said:


> hi,
> 
> I use the dried yeast US-05 often in a nice golden ale..
> 
> Is it worth yeast farming the US-05?





Why not? First it saves some dollars, second it just adds to the hobby.

Cheers
Gavo.


----------



## gava

just thought it was cheap enough to buy packs instead of stepping up the sludge/slant... but I see your point i do use it often so $0 v $6~ = good business sense..


----------



## Gavo

gava said:


> just thought it was cheap enough to buy packs instead of stepping up the sludge/slant... but I see your point i do use it often so $0 v $6~ = good business sense..



And then look at it like this, say 3 gens at 3 reuses per gen 3 x 3 plus the original = 10 brews (if not taking 3x from each brew to many figures to worry about) 10 x $6 = $60 compared to $6.

works for me.

Cheers
Gavo.


----------



## themonkeysback

QuantumBrewer said:


> I agree, it's confusing the way it's written there. Part of it is that you get three layers - trub, yeast, liquid; from bottom to top. Ideally you just want the yeast. I've started doing this with my yeasts to save money on smack-packs - it may not be the 'correct way' but it's worked for me.
> 
> 0. Boil up some water and pour into glass longnecks, seal with alfoil and allow to cool (anytime before you need them).
> 1. Bottle/keg as much as you can from the fermenter.
> 2. Give whatever's left a good swirl to get it all suspended in the remaining liquid (usually a litre or so) = slurry.
> 3. Sanitise 3 coopers PET bottles.
> 4. Collect slurry in PET bottles, about 2/3 full.
> 5. Fill with cooled water (from 0.) to 4/5 full, seal, shake like a british nanny.
> 6. Place PET bottles in fridge, upright for a couple of days. You will get firmly packed whitish sludge under brownish liquid.
> 7. Repeat 0.
> 8. Pour off liquid from PET bottles.
> 9. Repeat 5, 6, 7, 8.
> 10. You should end up with firmly packed white sludge under clear liquid.
> 
> Caveats;
> 
> - This doesn't separate the trub in any specific way. I have no real issue with this. It gets washed pretty well.
> - If you don't have enough fluid in the fermenter to swirl properly, add some cooled boiled water.
> - You may need to wash more than twice, just repeat 7, 8, 9.
> - YMMV.
> 
> To get it going again, warm the yeast from fridge temps to ambient temps, tip off most of the liquid, then add to a starter the way you would a Wyeast Propagator smack-pack.
> 
> Comments or alterations welcome.





L_Bomb said:


> Can someone clarify the process for me as it is worded poorly?
> 
> Is it meant to be:
> 
> 1. Collect yeast slurry from fermentor in Jar A
> 2. Leave for 15 min
> 3. Pour top 3/4 of liquid from Jar A into Jar B
> 4. Top up Jar B with sterilised water
> 5. Discard remaining liquid in Jar A
> 6. Sterilise Jar A
> 7. Leave for 15 min
> 8. Repeat steps 3 to 7 four times, saving the top 3/4 of liquid from each transfer
> 9. Store in fridge for 24-48 hours
> 10. Discard most of liquid
> 11. Top up with sterilised water and shake
> 12. Store in fridge for 24 hours
> 13. Discard liquid if it is discoloured, otherwise store in fridge until usage
> 
> cheers



Hi guys,

Digging up a bit of an old post here.

Just trying to get a clear idea on this yeast harvesting/farming thing.

From what I can tell the top quote by QuantumBrewer would suggest that the aim is to keep the yeast slurry in the bottom of each jar/bottle, whereas L_Bomb seems to be suggesting that you discard what is at the bottom of the jar and simply keep the yeast that is in solution with the water. I would have thought that QuantumBrewer's method makes since (i.e. let the yeast settle in each bottle, discard the liquid from above the yeast, then top up with sterile water shake, let yeast settle again and repeat etc).

Can someone clarify this for me?

Cheers

Adam.


----------



## themonkeysback

themonkeysback said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Digging up a bit of an old post here.
> 
> Just trying to get a clear idea on this yeast harvesting/farming thing.
> 
> From what I can tell the top quote by QuantumBrewer would suggest that the aim is to keep the yeast slurry in the bottom of each jar/bottle, whereas L_Bomb seems to be suggesting that you discard what is at the bottom of the jar and simply keep the yeast that is in solution with the water. I would have thought that QuantumBrewer's method makes since (i.e. let the yeast settle in each bottle, discard the liquid from above the yeast, then top up with sterile water shake, let yeast settle again and repeat etc).
> 
> Can someone clarify this for me?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Adam.



Bump.

Can anyone help me out with this?

Cheers.

Adam.


----------



## mxd

don't know sorry, but I think in the wiki's there is an instruction, for me, at end of fermenting, I leave a little beer in fermenter and swirl, I then put about 300 ml of the "slurry" into a couple of bottles, then label and fridge, when it comes time to use that yeast again, I make a starter, pour the beer (the clearish stuff on the top) out of bottle then put the slurry into the starter.

So I don't clean/wash my yeast.


----------



## dans6401

Not to sure about washing the yeast. I personally make slants which is really quite easy, and i highly recommend. I have saved some of the trub / slurry before and it did work, but never did the washing thing. I would personally go with reusing the slurry after it's dropped out. (Pouring off the top and making a starter from the remainder). If i remember right that you can do this for a max of 5-6 times, and the yeast remains viable for only a couple of months. Others on here could definitley give you a better answer. But for my 2 cents, google making yeast slants and never buy two of the same strain again.
Now for my ? about yeast farming. 
I scooped a bit of the krausen out at high fermentation with a sanitized soup spoon and funneled into a vial the other day. Capped it and put it in the fridge. Would this be better than reusing the slurry and should i bother making some slants out of it? Or just go out and grab another six pack of White Rabbit next time i want to use it?


----------



## Wolfy

themonkeysback said:


> From what I can tell the top quote by QuantumBrewer would suggest that the aim is to keep the yeast slurry in the bottom of each jar/bottle, whereas L_Bomb seems to be suggesting that you discard what is at the bottom of the jar and simply keep the yeast that is in solution with the water. I would have thought that QuantumBrewer's method makes since (i.e. let the yeast settle in each bottle, discard the liquid from above the yeast, then top up with sterile water shake, let yeast settle again and repeat etc).
> 
> Can someone clarify this for me?


The problem with keeping only what settles to the bottom is that the slurry can often have other foreign matter; bits of trub, break material, hop debris and gelatin/finnings that would 'contaminate' your yeast sample.
So, if you were to shake a sample of your slurry - and time it correctly - stuff that floats for too long or sinks too quickly should be discarded - keeping only the milky yeast from the middle of the sample.
Having said that, if you were to repeat this process a few times - I feel that you tend to discard a little too much of the viable yeast.

I personally use a combination of both methods, in the hope that I remove the majority of the foreign matter but also retain a high portion of the yeast.
The first time I wash the yeast, I keep only the suspended milky yeast from the center of the sample - but I also I try to time it correctly so that only the unwanted material - and not much yeast - sinks or floats and is discarded.
After that I wash it a few more times, but let it settle longer and keep the bottom later of settled yeast - each time it's washed using this method the water gradually gets clearer.
After 3-5 washes it tends to be very clear but also I've retained a fairly large proportion of the yeast from the original sample.


dans6401 said:


> I scooped a bit of the krausen out at high fermentation with a sanitized soup spoon and funneled into a vial the other day. Capped it and put it in the fridge. Would this be better than reusing the slurry and should i bother making some slants out of it? Or just go out and grab another six pack of White Rabbit next time i want to use it?


One of the main advantages of repitching slurry is that you can get a large number of viable yeast cells, which is ideal for large volumes or high gravity worts.
If you've only saved a smallish sample, I'd just treat it as the same as building a starter from a slant or bottle, since there will probably not be enough yeast to pitch directly into your wort.


----------



## MarshallBrew

mxd said:


> don't know sorry, but I think in the wiki's there is an instruction, for me, at end of fermenting, I leave a little beer in fermenter and swirl, I then put about 300 ml of the "slurry" into a couple of bottles, then label and fridge, when it comes time to use that yeast again, I make a starter, pour the beer (the clearish stuff on the top) out of bottle then put the slurry into the starter.
> 
> So I don't clean/wash my yeast.



Ok, so reading through the last nine pages over the last hour or so and almost thinking that re-using the yeast I cultured from a couple of CPA stubbies was going to be too much of a headf*ck, I have read the above and would like to thank you. This by far sounds like the easiest option for what I want to achieve.

Do you do this when there are Hops floating around in the slurry? If, so how does it turn out?


----------



## manticle

dans6401 said:


> Not to sure about washing the yeast. I personally make slants which is really quite easy, and i highly recommend. I have saved some of the trub / slurry before and it did work, but never did the washing thing. I would personally go with reusing the slurry after it's dropped out. (Pouring off the top and making a starter from the remainder). If i remember right that you can do this for a max of 5-6 times, and the yeast remains viable for only a couple of months. Others on here could definitley give you a better answer. But for my 2 cents, google making yeast slants and never buy two of the same strain again.
> Now for my ? about yeast farming.
> I scooped a bit of the krausen out at high fermentation with a sanitized soup spoon and funneled into a vial the other day. Capped it and put it in the fridge. Would this be better than reusing the slurry and should i bother making some slants out of it? Or just go out and grab another six pack of White Rabbit next time i want to use it?



Yeast at the height of fermentation is super healthy. Everytime I have used top cropped yeast it has performed spectacularly (including top cropped that is stored cold for a period of time). I prefer it to reharvesting slurry.


----------



## Kingy

this thread needs a pictorial


----------



## psytramp

Hi,

Thanks for the great information, exactly what I needed. 

Just a couple of questions if I can,

1. Whilst doing the above proceedure, is that done at room temp 21-24C?

2. While stroing the yeast, do you keep it a 4C?

3. How long will the yeast keep for?

4. Is there a chance of mutation by doing this?

Sorry for all the questions, thanks again!!


----------



## Gavo

1. Whilst doing the above procedure, is that done at room temp 21-24C?

Room temp is fine

2. While storing the yeast, do you keep it a 4C?

Or lower, just don,t let it freeze

3. How long will the yeast keep for?

quite some time, there are reports of keeping it over 12 months, I have, just use a starter when using it to ensure viability and that it is good to use.

4. Is there a chance of mutation by doing this?

Apparently over an number of generations yes, and there is a particular risk of infections. You need to be anal about cleanliness and sanitizing everything.

Cheers
Gavo


----------



## IainMcLean

Just used this technique to farm yeast for the first time. The results look promising. Like most things zymurgical I can't believe I've put it off so long!


----------



## crd0902

I know this is old but if I was to save my yeast then put it in some jars like the original post, what temp would I keep them at cheers
Chris


----------



## Wolfy

crd0902 said:


> I know this is old but if I was to save my yeast then put it in some jars like the original post, what temp would I keep them at cheers
> Chris


As cold as possible without freezing it - but for practical purposes simply put it in the fridge.


----------



## Stuwort

Is it possible yo harvest the yeast from Hoegaarden stubbies?


----------



## sp0rk

5 seconds on google says yes, it is possible
But if you want fresh stuff, Wyeast 3944 and WLP400 are the Hoegaarden strain according to http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm#WL


----------



## leahy268

So far for the last 2 years I've basically been using the wolfy method for rinsing yeast. Although the early batches were done prior to reading this and consequently not so good.
However I think freeze my yeast with glycerine according to http://www.ipass.net/mpdixon/Homebrew/Freezing%20Yeast.htm which works fantastically.
I then defrost slowly when required and make a starter from it.
So far the oldest I've used is around 18 months with no issues.

This way I can keep a lot of different varieties of yeast and not have to brew the same beer again straight away.


----------



## slcmorro

Can i use the jar of liquid with the milky white yeast cells in the bottom as is? As in, tip it into the fermenter without making a starter, providing my OG is 1040 or less?


----------



## yum beer

Only if its no very old, less than 2 weeks I find is OK, not ideal but OK.
Prefferable to make a starter.


----------



## slcmorro

It came out of a batch that was in the FV for 3 weeks overall, on Thursday night. I'll make a starter


----------



## chiller

Interesting revisiting this thread after all these years. A bit like chinese whispers by now 

You want to collect the milky liquid at each step as there is a very high amount of yeast in the liquid in this milky form. What you see as a yeast layer remaining at the end of each step prior to transferring to a small collection vial is discarded in this cleaning method as this contains hop debri and a higher content of not so healthy yeast This method is for longer term storage under sterile water.

If you can, lower the temperature of the sterile water and the collected yeast for each stage to fridge temperature and then store your samples at fridge temperatures = with this method do not freeze.

I have used this method for a long time now and the only problem I have faced is for too many yeast varieties collected. The most important aspect of this or any other method of yeast collecting is meteciculous cleanliness at all stages of your process. It is not worth saving a couple of dollars to ruin a whole batch because you or a friend wasn't careful about infections.


----------



## ashley_leask

leahy268 said:


> So far for the last 2 years I've basically been using the wolfy method for rinsing yeast. Although the early batches were done prior to reading this and consequently not so good.
> However I think freeze my yeast with glycerine according to http://www.ipass.net/mpdixon/Homebrew/Freezing%20Yeast.htm which works fantastically.
> I then defrost slowly when required and make a starter from it.
> So far the oldest I've used is around 18 months with no issues.
> 
> This way I can keep a lot of different varieties of yeast and not have to brew the same beer again straight away.


Haven't read the link, but I do glycerine freezing as well. I read on one of the US forums it's best to freeze slowly but thaw and use quickly, as the glycerine is toxic to the yeast once the temperature rises and they become active again. I noticed much quicker growth, more and earlier activity in my starters when I started getting the test tube out of the freezer and letting it thaw as I made the starter wort.

Previously I'd let come up to temp in the fridge for a day or two before using and they were much more sluggish in the first step that way. About 18 months is as old as I've used as well, but still kicked off straight away.


----------



## sticksy

can you use this method for harvesting and washing from ciders? 

im currently harvesting the yeast from a couple of stubbies and will make a starter for my first simple cider from this if im able to harvest the yeast back from the trub.


----------



## wbosher

Never made cider, but yeast is yeast. Even though there are many different types, they all like the same thing, so I can't imagine there would be too much difference as far as growing it goes.

Grab some and make a starter, see how it goes. Maybe wash it first.


----------



## dicko

If the bottles you are using are commercial samples then the yeast may have been added after primary fermentation to carbonate the cider. If this was the case some brewers use a different strain for this and it may not be entirely suitable for primary fermentation.
I am not that familiar with ciders cause I don't drink 'em but I know some commercial beer brewers use this method.

Cheers


----------



## indica86

What cider is bottle conditioned?


----------



## dicko

indica86 said:


> What cider is bottle conditioned?


sticksy??????????


----------



## sticksy

sorry, I am harvesting from a commercial beer to use in my cider and then want to be able to harvest and wash the yeast cake after the cider ferments.


----------



## shaunous

Hey Lads,
Got my first go at a starter one the stirplate now, I've just transferred it to my shed (was in the house overnight), ambient shed temp is 33*c now at 10am, my theory would be keeping the yeast at your brewing temp, but that's a little hard to having a stirplate mounted in your brew fridge.

Anywho can I just keep it growing on my shed bench around the daytime mid 30's?


----------



## NewtownClown

Yes, but you want to pour that beer off the yeast before pitching... Too high a temp may start killing cells though


----------



## shaunous

Yeh I planned on cooling afterwards in a fridge to separate then pour off the beer, settle to ferment temp in the ferment fridge and tip straight into the FV.


----------



## NewtownClown

If you are going to pitch the entire starter, then it is best to have the starter close to the ferment temp of the brew...


----------



## shaunous

How long should one run the starter on the stir plate for, I couldn't find any so called time limits on yeast calc, seen somewhere about 24hrs per step, so my one 24hr step for a 1.030 brew should suffice. I've used 1L of the wort for the starter from the brew I'm actually brewing.


----------



## manticle

indica86 said:


> What cider is bottle conditioned?


French/breton/normandy ciders have sediment from yeast. Have seen it in a German Apfelwein as well.


----------



## Vtchris2

a practise i use is as above , but for my sterile water i just buy a carton of spring water from coles $9 and use that as my water and use the bottles as my yeast storage containers , never had a problem


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Hope someone is watching! Just got my stir plate today. Started a smack pack yesterday it's ready.everything was going well. Git two containers from the fridge of wort I had saved from a pilnsner I cubed two days ago. it was taken early around 1030grav. Today I placed one on the stove to sanitize and this happend.




What I'm trying to do is step up the liquid yeast. I freaked out when I saw all the gunk on top so I recanted the second bottle and left out the sediment. Will I still be able to use the one with gunk on top?
I'm thinking of just putting it back into the fridge and trying again once the gunk falls.


----------



## Yob

:blink:

you what now in the who dat?

you cooked your yeast?


----------



## MartinOC

Yikes!! :blink:


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

Lol not the yeast mate. That's the wort I was sterlizing.


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie

All good I will tho it into the starter now


----------



## skb

Ok probably a dumb question but I am about to harvest my first yeast ... from a brew I am making now. As part of fermenting I always chill down to 0c at the end of fermenting to clear the beer. Will this adversely affect my ability to harvest the yeast ?


----------



## Spiesy

skb said:


> Ok probably a dumb question but I am about to harvest my first yeast ... from a brew I am making now. As part of fermenting I always chill down to 0c at the end of fermenting to clear the beer. Will this adversely affect my ability to harvest the yeast ?


It shouldn't, no.


----------



## Yob

skb said:


> As part of fermenting I always chill down to 0c at the end of fermenting to clear the beer. Will this adversely affect my ability to harvest the yeast ?


It'll actually help, crashing assists yhe yeast in dropping out, so what you end up with is a compact layer on the bottom, a mixture of most flocculent to least flocculent (and dead cells and other assorted crap and hop debris) after you have bottled/kegged you can either let it warm up and take a big old jar full and rinse it or take a big old jar full and bung it in the fridge to rinse later (label it) if using a viability calculator like my malty, use the date of last active fermentation or date of FG. 

Cheers


----------



## skb

Great thanks !


----------



## heshtek

If I want to pitch the vials of yeast directly into the wort am I supposed to pour off the layer of water on top of the yeast and replace it with some new boiled water before shaking it up and pitching it?


----------



## Yob

Vials as in wlp? Pitch direct


----------



## Icewind

Guys, i'm looking to get into yeast farming, as I received some WL vials mead, cider yeast, ultra high gravity and a few others. So I may have been able to procure a working stirplate with heat.

Where can I get appropriate test tubes (those baby soda bottle ones look good for not breaking) in Oz?

I'm presuming i'll need the following:

Stirplate
2L erlenmeyer flask
1L erlenmeyer flask
2 x 500ml erlenmeyer flask
30 or so vials
slant racks
sanitising solution
pressure cooker


----------



## Yob

Try MartinOC, he recently did a bulk buy for test tubes so may be able to help out with those,

Where are you located? I may be able to assist with flasks. 

Are you going slants or freezing?slants you will need a bit of extra gear 

Cheap pressure cookers are rare as rocking horse shit but are invaluable for this hobby.


----------



## shaunous

Yob said:


> Cheap pressure cookers are rare as rocking horse shit but are invaluable for this hobby.



BigW currently has a decent looking one on special around the $90 mark.


----------



## Eagleburger

http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.H0.Xcentrifuge+tube&_nkw=centrifuge+tube&_sacat=0&_from=R40


----------



## MartinOC

These are probably the best ones for what you want to do:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/50-ml-Centrifuge-Tubes-PKT-50-Self-Standing-CT50S-Fusion-Scientific-/331208126993?pt=AU_Business_Industrial_Medical_Scientific_Equipment2&hash=item4d1d8af211

That's a good price & postage is free.

If you go elsewhere, make sure you get ones that are PP or HDPE, so that you can autoclave (pressure-cook) them. Anything made from PET will melt with heat & can only be sanitised chemically. From memory, the WLP vials are actually PET & are the "pre-formed" version of PET soft-drink bottles, so NO HEAT!


----------



## Yob

Re the white labs vials, they soften with heat but don't deform. They are quite thick.


----------



## Icewind

Says the caps aren't auto-clavable? is that an issue?


----------



## MartinOC

Icewind said:


> Says the caps aren't auto-clavable? is that an issue?


I've done it & not had a problem. Never heard of anyone else having that problem with the ones we ordered from Proscitech (Google it, I dunno how to do schmick things with hyperlinks :unsure: ) in a BB. The ones I linked-to would probably be from the same source. Caveat Emptor, of course!

The only problems I'm aware of is applying heat to PET containers. Products we bought from them warped in boiling water (Proscitech changed their catalogue listing after I brought it to their attention).


----------



## TidalPete

If you buy the autoclavible tubes with the screw-on caps then you're obviously guaranteed that the caps are autoclavible too. I'm still using the16mm tubes (with caps) bought in a BB many years ago.
If you're thinking of getting a pressure cooker then consider a 10-litre minimum size which should be big enough to house a 10-tube rack + syringe + whatever assorted odds & ends you want to sterilise.
Have never had trouble sterilising White Labs vials & caps but the vials do become opaque from the heat. NBD there.

For 20c or so a pop those single-use 10ml sterile syringes are great value being autoclavible & also very handy around the brewery until the rubber plunger or markings wear out from continuous use.


----------



## shaunous

Just dont do what I did and forget about them on the stove, and come back to a smoking pile of melted test tubes and no water, and a pot u can never use again.


----------



## shaunous

TidalPete said:


> For 20c or so a pop those single-use 10ml sterile syringes are great value being autoclavible & also very handy around the brewery until the rubber plunger or markings wear out from continuous use.


Where u get them bad boys form TP?


----------



## Grainer

Got heaps of WLP833 Bock larger and Wyeast Munich Dunket atm if anyone wants it..Just finished about 120L brew..

South East Melbourne


----------



## Weizguy

Been up late making yeast starters.
Reviving some fresh Wyeast Bavarian wheat (2X) - Can't keep enough of this in stock
WLP833 (X2) - One for me and the other for a brew club member of HUB by request.
W1010 - Yeast last stored in April 2010 - small starter - Widmer clone expectations
Wyeast - Flying Dog (PC release) - hope to split for me and Fat Bastard. Yob? hand up if you want this one when I sort the Pacman for you.

I found a Pacman culture (undated) in a plastic bottle. Looked clean but the lid was damaged. Will see if a sample of it comes good, and maybe ferment the Rogue I²PA that's been waiting years in a cube for this yeast.
And a sample of the Pacman to Yob, as well. If it doesn't come out clean, I may be able to culture on agar and isolate a clean culture (been a while since I used the agar).

Les out


----------



## Yob

"rubs hands together"

Mwoohahahaha 

Yes please mate, me have plenty big freezer


----------



## Weizguy

Yob said:


> "rubs hands together"
> 
> Mwoohahahaha
> 
> Yes please mate, me have plenty big freezer


Oh, then you'll also want the King & Barnes festive ale yeast that I saved from a bottle and the Yeast Lab yeasts I got in the early '90s...


----------



## djar007

How on earth do you guys make starters for say fifty litres. I run my stats through Mr malty and it asks for five and six litre starters. So although it's working making four litre starters I am underpitching. How do people with bigger setups get around this.


----------



## Black n Tan

Step starter. Usually 1L, refrigerate and discard spent wort, then step up to 4L.


----------



## djar007

Cheers grant. Makes sense. I will have a try at that. So the first litre will double my yeast. Then I step up the already double amount to four litres. Problem solved. Thanks heaps.


----------



## kaiserben

If I wanted to, instead of pitching on to a yeast cake as soon as it becomes available, save a yeast cake to pitch into wort later (say 3 weeks later), what's a good, safe method of saving it for later? 

Will I be able to figure out roughly how many cells I'll have, or how much I need to save to have roughly the amount of cells I'll need? 

For reference I'll be pitching approx 425bn cells WLP838 into a dunkel. When I move that dunkel to secondary I'd like to salvage enough yeast to be able to pitch approx 425bn cells into a schwarzbier 3 weeks later.


----------



## jibba02

WTF is wrong with my frozen yeast? Why is it trying to escape?

50% yeast slurry was added to the tube then a 30% glycerine mix was added to make up the other 50%
The tube was then shaken, lid cracked and placed in the fridge for 2 days. Then transfered to the freezer with the rest of my yeast.
The tubes were stored upright.


----------



## Yob

Trapped CO2


----------



## jibba02

Thought i may have been. Top of tube has obviously frozen before the bottom. The top of the tube was very close to the fan


----------



## Melvict

chiller said:


> The short unscientific answer is that if you give a relatively small number of yeast a larger [compared to their number] amount of starter they can get rather lazy and often only work on what they need and not reach the sort of numbers requires for a brew. They then behave a lot like Aussie drinkers after their fill and fall asleep on the bottom of the bar/starter.
> 
> Adding from my collection about slightly bigger than a thumbnail amount of yeast to 50 mls ensures that they will get into the reproductive stage quickly without moving to beer making stage. Adding more starter to the 50 mls at about 24 hours keeps them in the making yeast stage. If I time it right I will step up to 1 - 2 litres at the point the yeast numbers are approaching the maximum for the size of the starter.
> 
> Steve





spog said:


> great informative post,chiller,ihave been doing the same as jy,and have yet to find a problem,i have only recycled ? my yeast,s no more than 3 times because i was under the impression that after this time the yeast basically shit,s it,s self. but now it has finally dawned on me that ,yes yeast IS a living organism and if looked after and not basically abused will continue to grow,or be useable.





chiller said:


> I have been asked on a number of occassions to explain my method for yeast farming -- Well it is nearly 40c outside and even I consider it is too hot to fire up the NASA burners so I hope you find this material useful.
> 
> Yeast and homebrewing are almost hand in hand as mystery black arts. And there is a mountain of repeated information that is never tried just repeated.
> 
> Yeast is a great thing and it has a strong need to make beer. It is no where near as delicate as people try to make out and will survive for a very long time with a very small amount of preparation.
> 
> Yeast from the secondary are often the slower flocculators and as such may not be true to the character of the initial pitching that is comfortably sleeping in the primary.
> 
> The day before you intend to remove the beer from the primary prepare 2 litres of sterile water [boil for 15minutes is enough] and allow to cool in the fridge in a sealable PET soft drink bottle will do.
> 
> Obtain 2 500 ml jars, a clean sanitised beer glass and 3 50 - 100 ml sample vials.
> 
> Transfer the beer off the cake and remove all the beer [not the yeast] Pour 500ml of your sterile water into the fermenter and give it a very good swill around to mix the yeast and water, now with the sanitised beer glass collect enough of the yeast solution to almost fill one of the jars. Shake it really well and lightly seal it and set it in the fridge for about 10 - 15 minutes. The heavy material will drop and you can now pour the top 3/4 of the liquid into the other jar and top up with sterile water.
> 
> Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the other jar. After the 10 minutes pour the milky yeast liquid into the 2nd jar and top up with sterile water. Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the first jar. Now pour the top 3/4 of the liquid into the other jar and top up with sterile water. Shake and set aside for 10 -15 minutes and in that time sanitise the 3 small sample jars.
> 
> Fill the sample jars 3/4 full with the milky liquid remaining, cap these and place in the fridge.
> 
> What remains in the larger jar can be used for your next brew [make a starter] or discarded.
> 
> Next stage is to let the yeast settle out in the sample jars for 24 - 48 hours. You will now have a compact yeast layer and reasonably clean liquid on top. Remove the lid and pour off most of the liquid and replace with your sterile water. Shake well and let settle again for 24 hours. The liquid will now be quite clear, pour this off and replace with sterile water and return to the fridge. Check your samples over the next week and if the water shows any discolouration replace it with fresh sterile water.
> 
> These samples will remain viable for at least 12 -- 18 months and maybe longer. I have used a Scottish ale yeast kept in my yeast farm that was dated 3 years old. It fired up over 2 days stepping up from 50mls to 150 mls to 500 mls.
> 
> I have used yeast over many generations maintained in this manner with absolutely no changes in character. Far bejond the mythical oft repeated homebrew law of 3 generations. For interesting reading on yeast examine what the late George Fix had to say on the topic.
> 
> The only danger and it is real is the danger of infection when harvesting yeast. Most All Grain brewers are competent at sanitation and the problem is small.
> 
> Pint of Lager has at one stage on either this forum or another posted a very practical guide to sanitation.
> 
> Even if you only brew once again from each of the samples over the next 6 months you will be using your yeast more efficiently. Don't forget when you use the last sample repeat the procedure. Another three samples will be waiting when you need them. You will probably have 3 -- 4 favourite yeasts you use on a regular basis and this method will ensure you keep a healthy supply ongoing for a very long time.
> 
> Yeast are your friends.
> 
> Steve


----------



## SeeFar

First, I apologies in advance. I've started reading this thread but it's too long for me to read through in the time I have. 

I'm about to rack a brew and would like to recycle/harvest the yeast. I've read the first post and similar variants - grab a bunch of stuff from the previous brew, let it settle in sanitised water a couple of times over and viola, there's your yeast. All good. 

The two questions I have are:

1 - how will I know that I have the adequate amount required for my wort that I intend to pitch into - not too much, not too little yeast. 

2 - Before I pitch it should I put it in some starter wort to get things kicking? 


I will be racking brew #1 this afternoon and pitching into brew #2 hopefully tomorrow afternoon but can keep the wort waiting if need be. 

Thanks for any advice.


----------



## roller997

While I am not an expert in this field and while it might be a bit late for you given you were going to rack in the afternoon, here is my 20c worth.
I would expect that your best option would have been to take some yeast at the height of the fermentation when yeast is most viable. At that stage if you were going to store it for a longer period than just a couple of days, you would go through a more stringent process.
With yeast that has settled, some of it will still be viable and good but for some of the yeast, it will be less than ideal but still usable.

If you are going to brew the next day, I would expect that you don't need to clean the yeast as much as you would for long term storage in gelatin vials but what is very critical is that everything is sanitised as well as you possibly can. You don't want to introduce anything beyond the yeast to the wort tomorrow.

Again, I have not re-harvested settled yeast so the quantity I would use may not be enough. I would look to use about a cup of the settled yeast in the new wort, given that I ferment 46 litre batches. I would think is a lot more viable yeast cells than two packets of dry or liquid yeast but I am just speculating.

Given the short time between batches, I would rather pour the harvested yeast onto a starter than try to purify it.

Cheers
Roller


----------



## HaveFun

Instead of harvesting yeast from a fermented beer, can I make a starter from a dry packet of yeast and use half in the first brew and the other half in a second brew?

For example:

2000ml RO Water + 220g DME + 1 packet of dry yeast as a starter for 72h 

Then I add one litre to my first batch of beer and the second half I keep in the fridge for the second brew in a few weeks ?

Cheers
Stefan


----------



## altone

HaveFun said:


> Instead of harvesting yeast from a fermented beer, can I make a starter from a dry packet of yeast and use half in the first brew and the other half in a second brew?
> 
> For example:
> 
> 2000ml RO Water + 220g DME + 1 packet of dry yeast as a starter for 72h
> 
> Then I add one litre to my first batch of beer and the second half I keep in the fridge for the second brew in a few weeks ?
> 
> Cheers
> Stefan



Why not! so long as you keep the second half in a sterile jar in the fridge.

Done similar for ages - although normally with hard to get liquid yeasts, can't be bothered for dry yeast.

Do pull the 2nd half out maybe a day before you use it and give it a chance to get used to your ferment temp.
I normally whack it on the stirplate for a few hours to get it going again. (some extra DME and a shake will do fine)


----------



## peterlonz

Steve's article is pretty much a simple common sense approach that he tells us works well in practice.
We should not ignore that or suggest that his methods are not supportable by micro-biology or current industry practice.
If it works reliably, as Steve claims, it's a very useful homebrew technique.
I operate an even simpler method: store "on beer" no washing, & limit myself to 3 generations. It works for me, but I can't suggest its suitable for serious brewers because I just don't have the volume of data to back up this approach.


----------



## HaveFun

I was thinking of doing a step starter.. with this yeast starter calculator:

http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

Is there a downloadable version of the calculator available? Because the link on the site is not working

If I start with a 3l Flask and add 1.5l RO Water + 150g DME + 10g Yeast nutrient that should give me a gravity of 1.037

After a day the gravity reading was 1.022 - the yeast is working 

Do I wait till the gravity is down to 1.005 or the yeast stop working before I proceed with step no 2?

Next step is to increase the starter volume to 2.5l

I add another 1l RO Water

Do I have to add 100g DME OR +250g DME to get a gravity of 1.037?

What happens if I keep the starter volume of 1.5l and only add more DME to get back to my gravity of 1.037 ?

Cheers
Stefan


----------



## Indian Giver

Why?

The cost of the DME and the extra effort involved would render it almost useless. Buy the extra packet of yeast, I know I do.

For wet yeast, google the "let's freeze some yeast" thread for the wet stuff. Works brilliantly.


----------



## HaveFun

Indian Giver said:


> Why?
> 
> The cost of the DME and the extra effort involved would render it almost useless. Buy the extra packet of yeast, I know I do.
> 
> For wet yeast, google the "let's freeze some yeast" thread for the wet stuff. Works brilliantly.



I think you are right... I may consider buying yeast in bulk I can get 500g Saflager W-34/70 for $150 from the local HBS

Cheers

Stefan


----------



## Indian Giver

HaveFun said:


> I think you are right... I may consider buying yeast in bulk I can get 500g Saflager W-34/70 for $150 from the local HBS
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Stefan



I have Hoppy days near me. When they have yeast on special I buy a double or triple of them. Hold onto it until I need it.

For wet yeast, I do a let's freeze some yeast google search, find the guy who made the thread, follow those instructions and pictures, and split a packet. 5 vials from one pack is good value and the DME is worth it then. I do it so infrequently I have to re-search for the thread in question and then get my head around it and do that.


----------



## altone

Indian Giver said:


> Why?
> 
> The cost of the DME and the extra effort involved would render it almost useless. Buy the extra packet of yeast, I know I do.
> 
> For wet yeast, google the "let's freeze some yeast" thread for the wet stuff. Works brilliantly.



Yes for dry yeast especially.
I use leftover wort to farm yeast so no real cost as I'd chuck it otherwise (I try to do single keg batches) and the glycerine freeze method to keep seasonal strains.

I'm recovering a 5 yr old frozen yeast atm that's not been in the freezer 2 years - just to see what happens.
There's life in the flask so a good start.


----------



## Moad

djar007 said:


> How on earth do you guys make starters for say fifty litres. I run my stats through Mr malty and it asks for five and six litre starters. So although it's working making four litre starters I am underpitching. How do people with bigger setups get around this.



No chill and pitch a single batch as a "starter" for 40-60L fermentation.


----------



## eviljesus

Been yeast farming for quite a while now just to keep a good supply on hand at any one time however my brother regularly visits the US and is able to bring back some ore obscure yeasts for me, so this should be very interesting. 

My question relates to the Kveik yeasts. I've just got a vial of Sigmund Voss that I am going to grow up and split into a fair few vials for short and longer term storage. Kveik usually likes to run very warm, but I can only really find information pertaining to using it for a ferment in a beer. Would I need to keep it up in the higher temperature range of things for farming purposes or the standard room temp will be ok? I'm guessing that because I'm not after any flavours etc from the yeast, just for it to grow, the temperature wont be as critical? 

Also - suggestions for any interesting yeasts for my bro to bring back would be welcomed. Also keen to swap a few different types in the near future if anyone wants to get a yeast grow/swap setup. I'm in Brisbane.

Cheers


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I am going to try to get more of the Angel yeast from China really impressed with what I have trialed recently but I will try my utmost to get their full range. Good idea to have a yeast bank from members to draw from. Reminds me of this.


----------



## Tony121

eviljesus said:


> Been yeast farming for quite a while now just to keep a good supply on hand at any one time however my brother regularly visits the US and is able to bring back some ore obscure yeasts for me, so this should be very interesting.
> 
> My question relates to the Kveik yeasts. I've just got a vial of Sigmund Voss that I am going to grow up and split into a fair few vials for short and longer term storage. Kveik usually likes to run very warm, but I can only really find information pertaining to using it for a ferment in a beer. Would I need to keep it up in the higher temperature range of things for farming purposes or the standard room temp will be ok? I'm guessing that because I'm not after any flavours etc from the yeast, just for it to grow, the temperature wont be as critical?
> 
> Also - suggestions for any interesting yeasts for my bro to bring back would be welcomed. Also keen to swap a few different types in the near future if anyone wants to get a yeast grow/swap setup. I'm in Brisbane.
> 
> Cheers



gloveski has done a lot of work on this yeast, albeit on an alternate forum. Can’t link but a search with a c b should bear fruit.


----------



## eviljesus

Tony121 said:


> gloveski has done a lot of work on this yeast, albeit on an alternate forum. Can’t link but a search with a c b should bear fruit.



Thanks mate I will have a look!


----------



## devoutharpist

Going to have my first crack at harvesting some yeast off a brew.

What sort of brews does everyone harvest from? From what i understand, you want low gravity (under 1.050 or is that even too much?) and something that isn't hoppy? I am planning to do a best/strong bitter to build up some stocks of London III. 

Gonna be fun getting it out of the snubnose...


----------



## Weizguy

devoutharpist said:


> Going to have my first crack at harvesting some yeast off a brew.
> 
> What sort of brews does everyone harvest from? From what i understand, you want low gravity (under 1.050 or is that even too much?) and something that isn't hoppy? I am planning to do a best/strong bitter to build up some stocks of London III.
> 
> Gonna be fun getting it out of the snubnose...



I harvest/recover yeast from bottled homebrew. Also Coopers Vintage, Coopers Pale and various British ales.


----------



## Yobbo

eviljesus said:


> Been yeast farming for quite a while now just to keep a good supply on hand at any one time however my brother regularly visits the US and is able to bring back some ore obscure yeasts for me, so this should be very interesting.
> 
> My question relates to the Kveik yeasts. I've just got a vial of Sigmund Voss that I am going to grow up and split into a fair few vials for short and longer term storage. Kveik usually likes to run very warm, but I can only really find information pertaining to using it for a ferment in a beer. Would I need to keep it up in the higher temperature range of things for farming purposes or the standard room temp will be ok? I'm guessing that because I'm not after any flavours etc from the yeast, just for it to grow, the temperature wont be as critical?
> 
> Also - suggestions for any interesting yeasts for my bro to bring back would be welcomed. Also keen to swap a few different types in the near future if anyone wants to get a yeast grow/swap setup. I'm in Brisbane.
> 
> Cheers





Surprised you didn't get more engagement with this, I've got tons of yeast but none of that kveik yeast as yet...

Any melbourne peeps got some? I may have time to put a batch down in the next month, I'd live to grow and store some regardless


----------



## Grmblz

Yobbo said:


> Surprised you didn't get more engagement with this, I've got tons of yeast but none of that kveik yeast as yet...
> 
> Any melbourne peeps got some? I may have time to put a batch down in the next month, I'd live to grow and store some regardless


I've got kviek king, Voss, and Loki. High temp's for a real citrusy (think mandarin) flavour, and low temp's for a more neutral effect. At high temp's (35c) it ferments like a beast, done in 3 to 4 days but low temp's more like 8 to 9 days (1050 to 1065 og) Traditional harvesting is done at high krausen, taken from the foam on the top and dried, but sludge dried out on paper towels seems to work just as well although it may change after several generations whereas the traditional method seems to keep the strain intact. My sludge drying has included hops in the mix (50 to 75 gms pellets 23 ltr) and hasn't seemed to make any difference, although it's early days generational wise. The real beauty of the kviek's is you just dry it out to store, no messing about with glycerine, preforms and freezers. Sorry Yobbo I'm NSW far South coast


----------



## hotwaterpls

eviljesus said:


> Been yeast farming for quite a while now just to keep a good supply on hand at any one time however my brother regularly visits the US and is able to bring back some ore obscure yeasts for me, so this should be very interesting.
> 
> My question relates to the Kveik yeasts. I've just got a vial of Sigmund Voss that I am going to grow up and split into a fair few vials for short and longer term storage. Kveik usually likes to run very warm, but I can only really find information pertaining to using it for a ferment in a beer. Would I need to keep it up in the higher temperature range of things for farming purposes or the standard room temp will be ok? I'm guessing that because I'm not after any flavours etc from the yeast, just for it to grow, the temperature wont be as critical?
> 
> Also - suggestions for any interesting yeasts for my bro to bring back would be welcomed. Also keen to swap a few different types in the near future if anyone wants to get a yeast grow/swap setup. I'm in Brisbane.
> 
> Cheers




How'd you go with the Kveik harvesting @eviljesus ? Also in Brissie (north west) - don't have a lot of space (or any experience, yet) for harvesting yeast but would be interested to try out the kveik if you managed to harvest. Also interested to know what kind of yeasts you're getting from the US! Pretty new to it all but trying to be a sponge and absorb as much as I can.


----------



## trustyrusty

My first attempt.. done all the yeast washing... I had 6 jars and a 500 ml bottle. Let everything settle for an hour or 2. Tipped out top fluid, tipped 3 jars into each other, topped up 2 farms with 500 ml. 6th jar had a bit over, kept for a test. This morning I took the half jar chuck some sugar and warm water... looks like it’s working... would the one jar be enough for a 23 l batch? See photos, I think they are 200 ml.


----------



## trustyrusty

My first attempt.. done all the yeast washing... I had 6 jars and a 500 ml bottle. Let everything settle for an hour or 2. Tipped out top fluid, tipped 3 jars into each other, topped up 2 farms with 500 ml. 6th jar had a bit over, kept for a test. This morning I took the half jar chuck some sugar and warm water... looks like it’s working... would the one jar be enough for a 23 l batch? See photos, I think they are 200 ml. View attachment 118220
. Don’t know why post is duplicated, can admin delete one..


----------



## Dingerb

Hi guys.

Just a quick noobie question......

I've been brewing beer and wine for quite a few years, but never tried yeast washing/harvesting.
Closest I've got, is to syphon off the fermented beer and use the yeast/trub left in the fermenter straight into a new brew.
That worked fine, but I'm now in the situation where I can't always brew straight away due to work commitments

I usually just use a new packet of dry yeast/ or the odd smack pack each time I brew

So my question is......

Once I've done the initial washing as described at the very beginning of this thread, could I then transfer to test tubes for storage?

Would there be enough yeast in test tubes to make a small starter and then follow the usual process building up to a larger volume starter?

Regards

Davie


----------



## The Mack

Dingerb said:


> Once I've done the initial washing as described at the very beginning of this thread, could I then transfer to test tubes for storage?
> 
> Would there be enough yeast in test tubes to make a small starter and then follow the usual process building up to a larger volume starter?




Yes absolutely, I generally store them in larger amounts than test tubes- say specimen jars of 50- 60 mL volume. Up to 6 months in the fridge 1st step is usually a 500mL starter and the yeast from that into a 3L starter.

Of course there's always the option of over-building your initial starter from the smack pack and splitting from that, in many ways that method lets you keep the yeast conditions pretty similar across generations (help to reduce genetic drift as the wort is always 1.040 at the approx same growth temperatures) but is not as cost effective as harvesting post ferment if that is your goal.


----------



## Dingerb

Hi Mack,
The test tube ideas was more to do with storage space in my fridge than anything else.

I'll probably just source small jars and do it as suggested.

regards

Dave


----------



## Grmblz

Dingerb said:


> Hi Mack,
> The test tube ideas was more to do with storage space in my fridge than anything else.
> 
> I'll probably just source small jars and do it as suggested.
> 
> regards
> 
> Dave


If you have spare freezer space look into freezing using glycol.


----------

