# S-189 Pitching Rate



## Goose (22/3/16)

I've been having issues using Mr Malty's calculator for dry yeast pitching rate which would suggest that I need 4 x 11.5g of yeast to pitch into a 44 l batch of 1.050 OG Lager wort. The first batch is always estery and riddled with off flavours, but the subsequent batches which are made from the yeast cake of the previous batch work fine. This suggests I am underpitching.

Mr Malty aka Jamil Zainasheff assumes that there are _approximately_ 20 billion yeast cells per gram of well stored dried yeast which explains why 4 packets of 11.5g which by rights should contain about 11.5*20*4= 920 billion active yeast cells which exceeds the target of 800 billion cells required for the OG and volume of lager wort.

I am pondering whether Zainasheff is optimistic on his active yeast count assumptions and a better determination of required cell count could be determined by this calculator, where i the active cell viability determined by (albeit dated) experiment as follows:


Yeast B cells/g
Safale K-97 14
Safale S-04 8
Safbrew T-58 18
Safbrew S-33 16
Saflager S-23 10
Saflager S-189 9

Adapted from: Van Den Berg, S., & Van Landschoot, A. (2003). Practical use of dried yeasts in the brewing industry. CEREVISIA, 28(3), 25-30 (Table 1). 

ie in the S-189 case only 9 B active cells per g that I would really need to pitch in just less than 9 packets of 11.5 g sachets to achieve a starting count of 800 billion cells. That is alot of yeast sachets and if correct would blow all homebrew economics out the window.

It seems to use this yeast properly it might require a starter with appropriate step ups to achieve target volume. But everyone says starters using dried yeast is a no no (well not required) but I think if above is correct it is justified. 

Am I barking up the wrong tree here ? (P.S No debates on hydrating or sprinkling please, I have had the same issues after carefully rehydrating, and my yeast comes by mailorder from craftbrewer in their repackaged 12g sachets).


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## kaiserben (22/3/16)

Goose said:


> It seems to use this yeast properly it might require a starter with appropriate step ups to achieve target volume. But everyone says starters using dried yeast is a no no (well not required) but I think if above is correct it is justified.
> 
> Am I barking up the wrong tree here ? (P.S No debates on hydrating or sprinkling please, I have had the same issues after carefully rehydrating, and my yeast comes by mailorder from craftbrewer in their repackaged 12g sachets).


With dried yeast you only don't want a starter for the initial rehydration. You can rehydrate and then step up with no probs at all. 

That's about as far as the debate should go, but ...if you really, really wanted to, I dunno, maybe because you are religiously anti-rehydrate and pro-sprinkle, you could "sprinkle" into a 1st-step starter (thus killing a bunch of your initially viable cells) and step up from there. Same sort of thing just starting with a far lower number of cells. 

So IMO you're on the right track, just rehydrate in water to start with. 

EDIT: By the way, Fermentis says you can pitch into sterile water or wort. So you can take my advice with a grain of salt, but I think it's good advice to rehydrate in water before stepping up with wort.


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## kaiserben (22/3/16)

Oh that reminds me - just over a week ago I pitched 2 x packs S-189, rehydrated, into 22L of 1.050 wort. Where instructions say to "gently stir for 30 minutes" I put it on a stir plate instead of my usual vigorous stir for 30 seconds using my thermometer. The resultant cream was the frothiest I've ever seen with rehydrated dry yeast, so there are often bad habits that brewers can improve on. 

Also, Fermentis states that S-189 should have 6 x 109 / g viable cells at packaging (that's 6 bn, right? That's even lower than the 9bn stated in your list above)


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## Goose (22/3/16)

kaiserben said:


> Oh that reminds me - just over a week ago I pitched 2 x packs S-189, rehydrated, into 22L of 1.050 wort. Where instructions say to "gently stir for 30 minutes" I put it on a stir plate instead of my usual vigorous stir for 30 seconds using my thermometer. The resultant cream was the frothiest I've ever seen with rehydrated dry yeast, so there are often bad habits that brewers can improve on.
> 
> Also, Fermentis states that S-189 should have 6 x 109 / g viable cells at packaging (that's 6 bn, right? That's even lower than the 9bn stated in your list above)



Thanks KBen.

I'd be interested to learn how your beer turns out because 2 x packs at 6 B per g is only 138 B cells and I believe for 22 l of wort at 1.05 you should be pitching at a rate of around 400 B cells putting you alot short.

Or is this your normal practice and it turns out fine ?


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## sponge (22/3/16)

What temp are you pitching at?


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## Goose (22/3/16)

I prefer to pitch cool at 12 deg C but I have tried 18 then cooling to 12. Same diff.


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## fraser_john (22/3/16)

I pitch my dry lager yeast at the same temp as the wort, after chilling that is about 20c. Then drop the temp by 2c/hr until it hits 12c. The warmer wort helps the yeast get started.

But, yeah, I use brewers friend calculator over Mr Malty and then use the cell density right off the Fermentis website, yes this means I sometimes have to use four packs of yeast in a 22L batch. Which has led me to return to using a lot more liquid yeasts and starters!


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## kaiserben (22/3/16)

Goose said:


> Thanks KBen.
> 
> I'd be interested to learn how your beer turns out because 2 x packs at 6 B per g is only 138 B cells and I believe for 22 l of wort at 1.05 you should be pitching at a rate of around 400 B cells putting you alot short.
> 
> Or is this your normal practice and it turns out fine ?


For lagers I usually use liquid yeasts (build starters and calculate to over-pitch). This is only the 2nd attempt at lager with dried yeast. With the earlier attempt it was definitely too estery (still tasty, just too estery for style). If I ever use dried yeast in a lager again I'll definitely up the pitching rate (either buy more packs or rehydrate followed by starter wort). 

For ales I normally pitch 2 packs in 23L for anything from 1.050 - 1.070. (even that might be an underpitch going off that list). 

I'd been going around thinking the dried yeast packs had 250bn viable cells at packaging (and liquids had 100bn). Looks like I was way off on the dried yeasts.


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## kaiserben (24/3/16)

This thread got me thinking and I went searching for info. 

The following info was read off a US brewing forum and sounded about right to me: 

The "6 x 109 / g" listed by Fermentis (or 69bn per pack) is actually a minimum. With US-05 for example, Fermentis claims (in an email to a question posed by a homebrewer in the USA) that the average is more like 150bn per pack.

People have conducted cell counts and found the packs usually have more like 200bn/pack. Sounds good to me, but there's more: 

The act of rehydrating will result in a certain amount of cells not being viable. The viable number of cells is about 75% of that 200bn amount, so we're back to 150bn (which is what Fermentis was telling people to start with).


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## pist (1/4/16)

I pitch 2x packets directly in per 23 L. Always get a very nice clean crisp lager using this method


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## Tahoose (1/4/16)

Your 44ltrs, have you brewed it all ready and no chilled? Or are you going to brew it? 

Did a big batch of lager using this yeast recently. First 20ltrs was with 30 grams yeast re-hydrated. Fully ferment out and then used the whole yeast cake for the next 50litres, pitched low and free rise up to 17c.


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## technobabble66 (1/4/16)

Why is S-189 so hard to get in Oz?!? 
Why is it so unpopular with our retailers?


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## timmi9191 (1/4/16)

technobabble66 said:


> Why is S-189 so hard to get in Oz?!?
> Why is it so unpopular with our retailers?


Really? Who doesnt have it?


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## Rocker1986 (1/4/16)

After reading the cell count stuff on the Fermentis website I have been very skeptical of the claims of 200 billion cells per pack or thereabouts. I always make starters with them (mainly to harvest some for re-use later than anything else), but I use a cell count around 100-110 billion in my preferred calculator (Yeastcalc) as this seems more likely to be the case. So far so good, have had excellent results in my beers from doing this, but I probably use liquid yeasts more these days. Two of my three stored strains are Wyeast strains.


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## technobabble66 (2/4/16)

timmi9191 said:


> Really? Who doesnt have it?


I believe only Greensborough HB supply it, in all of Melbourne/Victoria.


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## LAGERFRENZY (2/4/16)

I think that the branded Ferments product is only available in this country as a 500 gram package. Craftbrewer in Brisbane sells it in that configuration for $215 plus freight. However they do also stock a generic version of this product sold as Craftbrewer Swiss Lager (twin pack 2 X 12 gram) for $12.90. I could be wrong.


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## nosco (2/4/16)

I got mine from KK. Repackaged in 15g (not sure) packs. Haven't seen it any where else in Vic.


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## technobabble66 (2/4/16)

@ lagerfrenzy, yep you're right, but it's not available down here. 
@nosco, It's not on their website, so good to know. 

Any reason from the wise why Fermentis sell small packs of everything else but not S-189? 
I just would've thought it was the best lager for Aussie conditions!


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## nosco (2/4/16)

http://kegking.com.au/yeast/fermentis/saflager-s-189-15g.html


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## timmi9191 (2/4/16)

Any interest in splitting a 500g pack?

http://kegking.com.au/yeast/fermentis/saflager-s-189-500g-pack.html


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## technobabble66 (2/4/16)

Haha. I stand corrected. I checked their site yday and didn't see it [emoji52]


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## Tahoose (2/4/16)

*double post


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## Tahoose (2/4/16)

They do sell them in individual packs. I enquired with grain and grape and asked if anybody else had requested it and they said no, and didn't intend to stock it.

Pretty sure full pint stock it sometimes.


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## technobabble66 (2/4/16)

^^ Maybe no-one asks for it because they're used to no-one (well, very few) supplying it. Or they simply become familiar with whatever the LHBS normally supplies.

This is obviously a minor beef i have. It seems the most obvious yeast strain for Aussie HB'ers to be using, and 10 times more likely to produce something good for the newbie brewers who launch straight in to trying to brew a lager before they know what they're doing, etc.
I just don't understand why everyone basically stocks the other types of dry lager strains in preference.


Good to know FP might occasionally stock it. I'll get onto hassling Cocko.


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## LAGERFRENZY (2/4/16)

Not a minor beef but I can understand smaller LHBS not wanting to get stuck with $200+ 500 gram packs of yeast that have a limited shelf life. Your earlier question as to why Ferments does not distribute this yeast in single packs here is the one that I can't think of an answer for.


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## Goose (3/4/16)

It is available in 11.5g individual packs (see below) and I always prefer to buy this way rather than a retailer's repackaged product from the 500g packs for obvious reasons. This should be available to any retailer who orders in Fermentis products though as mentioned above I suspect many are trying to clear existing stocks of repackaged stuff before stocking this.


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## Goose (3/4/16)

Tahoose said:


> Your 44ltrs, have you brewed it all ready and no chilled? Or are you going to brew it?
> 
> Did a big batch of lager using this yeast recently. First 20ltrs was with 30 grams yeast re-hydrated. Fully ferment out and then used the whole yeast cake for the next 50litres, pitched low and free rise up to 17c.


G'gay Mr Hoose. Yes I brewed this already but I did a two stage starter as per calcs in OP and pitched at 15 deg C. To make the starter, this time I used a fermentis original and not the prepackaged yeast, just to eliminate any possibility that contamination occurs in the repackaging process.

As mentioned I had tried before pitching 4 x 12g packs directly into 18 deg C wort then cooling to 12 for ferment. I also tried the rehydration method. Both gave me the same undesirable results for the first batch.

It seems clear to me I was underpitching and I blame my blind faith in the Mr Malty calculator for dry yeast pitching. I was therefore looking for every reason other than underpitching to determine the cause of the problem. 

The mr Malty calculator assumes around 20 Billlion viable cells per g of dried yeast for a well treated product. Yet the manufacturer will only guarantee a minimum of 6 B/g from factory, and experimental results (see OP) came up with only 8 B/g. My bad for not doing my research.

However I am not out of the woods till I can claim success with current batch which is a week in and down to 1.025 at 12 deg c so far.


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## kaiserben (4/4/16)

Goose said:


> Thanks KBen.
> 
> I'd be interested to learn how your beer turns out because 2 x packs at 6 B per g is only 138 B cells and I believe for 22 l of wort at 1.05 you should be pitching at a rate of around 400 B cells putting you alot short.
> 
> Or is this your normal practice and it turns out fine ?


Just tasted it and it turned out spectacularly well. (Fairly clean without noticeable fruity esters, unlike the side-by-side I had done with S-23 after splitting the batch). 

I was fairly patient with it; I let it spend a couple of months in bottles in the household fridge before tasting. 

I'm now an S-189 convert, but still, I'd probably pitch more cells next time considering your info in this thread.


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