# Transferring to Keg. What am I doing wrong!!



## axematt (26/12/18)

Gday all.

I have read the posts on this forum and others on this topic and it seems that I am doing things right but the evidence seems to prove otherwise. I am trying to transfer from my SS fermenter to a corny keg.

I have a silicon hose from the fermenter to a quick disconnect (black and I have tried the grey) to the liquid out post of the keg. Prior to connecting I have filled the keg with Co2 and then purged it so the pressure is not forcing back up the fermenter but it bloody takes forever! I'm talking an hour or so, with constant moving and wriggling or disconnecting of the connection to the keg to get things moving as it stops. I am pulling the Release valve as its filling as well. I am new to the world of home brewing but I'm getting really tasty beer from advice from this forum but It's this last part of the process that I can't get right. Any help really appreciated!

Cheers


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## fdsaasdf (26/12/18)

My keg fills from a SS brewbucket to keg through a liquid QD on the OUT post take around 20 minutes. Instead of pulling the release valve you can just place a gas disconnect on the IN post to bleed the air as the keg fills with liquid. 

I suggest you check if you have sediment or something else obstructing the tap, hose or QD.


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## axematt (26/12/18)

Thanks mate. That's a good suggestion on the gas in connector, will do that next time. 20 mins, HA! I wish that was my case. Do you pour off the first litre or so before you connect to the keg?


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## fdsaasdf (26/12/18)

I check a small sample first (50mL or so) to do a refractometer gravity reading and check that it runs off ok. If any sediment I'll pull a 750mL bottle off (which I'll either bottle carb or shake up for an early sample) before kegging.


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## axematt (26/12/18)

I'll try and do a bit of a check then first, but otherwise it seems I'm doing everything right, yeah? must be a sediment thing then.


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## peteru (26/12/18)

I've had exactly the same problem last week. I was using the black premium plastic Keg King disconnects. I replaced those with stainless steel disconnects and the problem went away. My current suspicion is that there are a lot of posts and disconnects that don't have matching forces on the springs that push the poppet / pin. As a result, you end up with connections that don't have a good opening. This can lead to slow / stuck pours or transfers, foaming and air ingress.

I think I'll be upgrading all my disconnects to stainless steel MFL very soon. In the meantime, examining the disconnect and post springs (and possibly stretching them as required) may work.


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## axematt (26/12/18)

Good on Ya peteru.
Another avenue to explore. That theory may have some weight as I have used different connectors with varying results ( mostly crap, still takes forever) even the grey one but not the SS ones. I might modify/stretch or cut down the springs in the meantime and see what happens.


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## hopnotic (27/12/18)

How do you know when to stop filling the keg if you don't have the lid off to check head space?


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## axematt (27/12/18)

I pretty much only do a 20 litre brew, I probably drain off maybe 500ml doing gravity and taste checks during fermentation and then I'll leave at least 1 litre at the bottom of the fermenter after putting in the keg so I know I will definitely be safe head space wise without looking.


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## Wobbly74 (27/12/18)

I do it one of 3 ways -

Cold crashed beer into warm keg, use the condensation mark as a guide
Use a luggage scale to weigh the keg and stop once it gets to about 19kg on top of the keg weight
Fill until it overflows, then close the prv, then add some pressure to push the liquid back into the fermenter until the bubbling noise stops


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## billygoat (28/12/18)

Have you got the lid off the fermenter or open to atmosphere?


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## axematt (28/12/18)

Gday billgoat. Yeah mate, I usually have a cloth soaked in starsan which I lay over the bung after I have taken the blow off tube from the fermenter. No good?


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## billygoat (29/12/18)

axematt said:


> Gday billgoat. Yeah mate, I usually have a cloth soaked in starsan which I lay over the bung after I have taken the blow off tube from the fermenter. No good?


That's fine.
I was just making sure you weren't creating a vacuum by having the fermenter air tight. Makes it hard to drain the fermenter if it's trying to suck air and it can't.


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## JoeB (2/1/19)

I'll start by saying I have been bleeding excess air pressure by leaving the release valve open. I had the same sort of issue, and found that back-pressure from the Keg was the issue. Resolved by increasing the height difference between the fermenter and keg by about a foot and a half. I found I needed greater drop for gravity feed to fill against increasing liquid pressure in the keg. My setup was a bench at just over the height of the keg with the fermenter on it, keg on the ground. Changed that the height of the keg by something over a foot and it was fine.


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## Barry (3/1/19)

I have a keg fill of sanitiser (at a safe dosage rate), push this into another keg. Connect keg that is full of CO2 to Ss Brew Bucket via a disconnect on the outpost and tubing to the tap. Also have disconnect on the gas post with tubing fitting into the stopper on the fermenter. Open tap and beer flows into keg and the CO2 flows into the fermenter, minimising oxygen. Seems to work well.
Hope this helps even though it repeats previous good advice.


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## Clevohead (3/1/19)

My steps that I use:
1. Clean and stellarsan keg.
2. Charge up to 10-15psi co2, purge air out and re-charge to 10-15psi. (I travel to brew club, so I do this at home and load keg into car)
3. I connect my fill hose rig to my fermenter, approx 1.5m of beer line with a black liquid/out connect.
4. Equalize keg to atmosphere pressure via pressure release valve. co2 stays in keg as it is heavier than air. Transporting pressurized gives me chance to make sure all my seals are good, any repairs needed I do at brew club, and re-pressurize there, and wait 20 minutes or so to ensure no bleed down.
5. Connect black fill line up to liquid post, and remove air lock from fermenter (we ferment in plastic drums ala Coopers kits)
6. fit grey gas/in connect with line up to keg, this line I dangle into a bucket/jug.
7. Tilt and prop keg on a 50mm piece of wood with gas post on the low side, once the keg is filled and sitting level this gives the gas post just the right clearance from the beer.
8. Have a beer and watch fill.
9. once beer comes out gas post into bucket generally after about 4-5min, turn tap off on fermenter, and disconnect fittings and hoses. (as the beer enters the bottom of the keg it pushes the co2 out the gas post, as co2 is heavier than air you have a co2 cushion sitting on top of the beer and this prevents any exposure to oxygen.)
10. Pressurize and purge co2, I have a sodastream adapter and reg at brew club for this, and then give a purge to clear any possible oxygen ingress, pressure up 10-15psi, load up and go home.

That is how I do it, hpe it helps.


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## S.E (3/1/19)

axematt said:


> Gday billgoat. Yeah mate, I usually have a cloth soaked in starsan which I lay over the bung after I have taken the blow off tube from the fermenter. No good?


I think billygoat is on the right track. The soaked cloth over the bung hole is probably what’s causing the problem. It won’t cause a complete vacuum but it’s going to slow the flow right down.

Next time try without the cloth, just leave the bung hole open or leave the blow off open so it can draw air unrestricted.

Or as you are purging and filling your keg with co2 you could do a closed loop transfer. Fit a disconnect and line to the keg gas post and push the line tightly into the bung hole or blow off so the co2 from the keg is filling the fermenter and replacing the beer as it is flowing into the keg.


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## axematt (4/1/19)

Gday all.

Thanks for all the advice, some interesting ideas to incorporate in my next fill which is about 2 days away. It seems I'm nearly on the right track but hopefully with a few tweeks it will work much better, coz a gotta say it, the slow transfer is a pain the ass! I'll ditch the cloth method and maybe give the closed loop transfer a shot. I don't think it is crud that's affecting the rate coz when I open the tap on the fermenter to transfer it flows fine for about 1 minute then starts slowing down and I'm watching this happen and I don't see any chunks of stuff running down the tube. So maybe suction/vacuum issue.


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## S.E (4/1/19)

axematt said:


> Gday all.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice, some interesting ideas to incorporate in my next fill which is about 2 days away. It seems I'm nearly on the right track but hopefully with a few tweeks it will work much better, coz a gotta say it, the slow transfer is a pain the ass! I'll ditch the cloth method and maybe give the closed loop transfer a shot. I don't think it is crud that's affecting the rate coz when I open the tap on the fermenter to transfer it flows fine for about 1 minute then starts slowing down and I'm watching this happen and I don't see any chunks of stuff running down the tube. So maybe suction/vacuum issue.


From what you are describing the cloth over the bung hole is most likely the cause of the slow transfer.

If you are going to try a closed loop transfer although not difficult just be aware it can be a bit fiddly at times and also slow the flow. You may find it a bit tricky to get the flow started if there is any restriction or back pressure in the gas line. For instance if you take your fermenter out of a cold fridge after crash chilling and try a transfer in a warm environment the beer will start expanding and push co2 from the fermenter into the keg which will slow or stop the flow of beer.

Give it a go but you may be better off just transferring with the fermenter open and letting in air to start with till you get the basics right.

All this business of purging kegs and keeping the fermenter sealed are advanced or improved brewing methods and can add their own complications to the brew day of a beginner.

It’s easy to get the impression from reading forums and modern HB books that air getting into the keg or fermenter will kill your beer but it won’t.

When I started brewing it was common practise to open ferment with no lid on the fermenter but that is virtually unheard of in home brewing these days. I still do it sometimes when the mood takes me. I usually use a blow off but often don’t fit it or seal the lid tight until fermentation is well and truly underway.


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## axematt (4/1/19)

Gday S.E.



S.E said:


> Give it a go but you may be better off just transferring with the fermenter open and letting in air to start with till you get the basics right.
> 
> All this business of purging kegs and keeping the fermenter sealed are advanced or improved brewing methods and can add their own complications to the brew day of a beginner.



Spot on advise! I'll get the basics right first and expand from there. I'll be doing this for along while, so there's time, coz how good is this home brewing thing! super addictive. Thanks again to all for their advice


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## goatchop41 (4/1/19)

axematt said:


> I am pulling the Release valve as its filling as well



Everyone seems to have completely missed this - are you just giving the PRV a tug every now and then? If so, that's your issue - the keg is a closed space, and you're trying to add liquid without giving somewhere for the displaced gas to go.
You should either have the PRV pulled open the entire time, or just stick a QD on the gas post too. That way as the beer is entering the keg via the liquid post, the gas can be displaced out of the PRV/gas post


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## axematt (4/1/19)

Gday goatchop41.

for my first couple of kegs I was releasing the pressure periodically but then I realised that it was just easier to leave the bloody thing open. So yeah, now I just leave it open whilst filling but I might put on a QD on the gas out and do it that way. Sorry, the way I worded it in my OP probably sounded like I didn't do it much at all.

Cheers


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## Tricky Dicky (5/1/19)

I'm a newbie and have brewed and kegged about 8 batches now and so far just transferred from the fermentor tap to the keg via a silicone tube directly into keg with the lid off. So far no real issues, beer has tasted fine, what are the real risks of doing it the way I am?


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## Maheel (5/1/19)

Tricky Dicky said:


> I'm a newbie and have brewed and kegged about 8 batches now and so far just transferred from the fermentor tap to the keg via a silicone tube directly into keg with the lid off. So far no real issues, beer has tasted fine, what are the real risks of doing it the way I am?



well you are doing it the way many have in the past and still do, 
many do it using co2 to push beer during tranfer or other methods they have come up with 

there would be some Oxidation
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/l9v9PEb7Gl/

persoanlly i push beer from my kegmenter to drinking keg with co2

but if i was using the "plastic barrel" fermenter with a tap i would use a silicone hose to the bottom of the keg


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## bevan (5/1/19)

Tricky Dicky said:


> I'm a newbie and have brewed and kegged about 8 batches now and so far just transferred from the fermentor tap to the keg via a silicone tube directly into keg with the lid off. So far no real issues, beer has tasted fine, what are the real risks of doing it the way I am?



It’s way I’ve done it for about 20 brews and no problems (yet, touch wood). Simple and easy.


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## gaijin (5/1/19)

Tricky Dicky said:


> I'm a newbie and have brewed and kegged about 8 batches now and so far just transferred from the fermentor tap to the keg via a silicone tube directly into keg with the lid off. So far no real issues, beer has tasted fine, what are the real risks of doing it the way I am?


Nothing wrong with that. I simply give a good 10 seconds of solid C02 into the keg. This gives a layer of C02 at the base of the keg to 'fill into'. I try not to splash too much and it works, as far as I can taste, perfectly. Doesn't get much simpler.


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## Tricky Dicky (7/1/19)

gaijin said:


> Nothing wrong with that. I simply give a good 10 seconds of solid C02 into the keg. This gives a layer of C02 at the base of the keg to 'fill into'. I try not to splash too much and it works, as far as I can taste, perfectly. Doesn't get much simpler.


Just wondering if, when you use this method, have you experienced and reduction in malty or hop flavours as the beer ages in the keg? Reason I ask is that yesterday I drank some of the California Common that I kegged over a week ago, I tasted some after a week and it had a nice caramelly/malty flavour up front and hoppy at the end, a really good beer. A few days later the malty taste has all but gone, one of the forum members has said its highly likely caused by too much oxygen in the beer and most likely introduced when it was transferred from fermenter to the keg?


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## DU99 (7/1/19)

i syphon as a few other's do..when filled i put on the lid and connect co2 line for a few secs till keg lid is firm disconnect gas and store,haven't lost a keg yet..but i could be doing it wrong......also i natural carbonate


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## wide eyed and legless (7/1/19)

DU99 said:


> i syphon as a few other's do..when filled i put on the lid and connect co2 line for a few secs till keg lid is firm disconnect gas and store,haven't lost a keg yet..but i could be doing it wrong......also i natural carbonate


The natural carbonation would make a lot of difference.


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## Tricky Dicky (7/1/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The natural carbonation would make a lot of difference.[/QUOTE


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## wide eyed and legless (7/1/19)

Add the sugar prior to transfer the yeast left will consume the sugar, hopefully any oxygen, and making co2 at the same time.


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## Tricky Dicky (7/1/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Add the sugar prior to transfer the yeast left will consume the sugar, hopefully any oxygen, and making co2 at the same time.


Does that alter the final flavours?


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## DU99 (7/1/19)

remember bottling is the same ,but overall you use less sugar in the keg process


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## wide eyed and legless (7/1/19)

I have done it with the casks and the self carbonated beer comes over a lot smoother, I did read that the co2 from the gas bottle is actually a by product so not as pure as the co2 which comes from natural carbonation. The article was from the NASA scientist who made a set up for capturing the gas and pressurising it from the fermentation of beer.


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## Tricky Dicky (7/1/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have done it with the casks and the self carbonated beer comes over a lot smoother, I did read that the co2 from the gas bottle is actually a by product so not as pure as the co2 which comes from natural carbonation. The article was from the NASA scientist who made a set up for capturing the gas and pressurising it from the fermentation of beer.


Once it's self carbonated do you still connect the keg to the co2 bottle or does the beer keep carbonating itself?


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## S.E (7/1/19)

Tricky Dicky said:


> Once it's self carbonated do you still connect the keg to the co2 bottle or does the beer keep carbonating itself?


If it’s in a keg and served cold it will stay carbonated but you would normally connect to co2 to dispense. If it’s in or served from a cask at cellar temp it can keep carbonating its self to an extent.


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## roger mellie (8/1/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have done it with the casks and the self carbonated beer comes over a lot smoother, I did read that the co2 from the gas bottle is actually a by product so not as pure as the co2 which comes from natural carbonation. The article was from the NASA scientist who made a set up for capturing the gas and pressurising it from the fermentation of beer.



Hmmm. CO2 'from the bottle' is a by-product of either combustion, fermentation (on a BIG scale like ethanol production) or a vent stream occurring naturally. In order to make the grade - it has to be pure to ppb levels of most contaminants (Hydrocarbons especially Benzene, Nitrous Oxide, Nitric Oxide and Sulphur based contaminants S02 etc..) Its true that different sources have different contaminants - but they all contain sulphur compounds. Ever smelt your fermenter after doing a pilsener? The CO2 from the fermentation source is by far the worst feedbags to the liquefier requiring the most filtering and the most analysis) - full of sulphur basically.

All that said - natural fermentation either in a pressurised fermenter or a corny with a spunding valve is the schiz. I find there to be a much finer bubble and less carbonic bite.


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## Tricky Dicky (8/1/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have done it with the casks and the self carbonated beer comes over a lot smoother, I did read that the co2 from the gas bottle is actually a by product so not as pure as the co2 which comes from natural carbonation. The article was from the NASA scientist who made a set up for capturing the gas and pressurising it from the fermentation of beer.


WEAL what is it you prime your kegs with?


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## wide eyed and legless (8/1/19)

Tricky Dicky said:


> WEAL what is it you prime your kegs with?


Dextrose, but a bit of pressure at the end of the ferment to keep the dissolved co2 in the mix can eliminate the use of dextrose or sugar. Although what I have been reading recently I am drifting away from any pressure fermenting, the outcome is still the same using dextrose or sugar.


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## gaijin (9/1/19)

Tricky Dicky said:


> Just wondering if, when you use this method, have you experienced and reduction in malty or hop flavours as the beer ages in the keg? Reason I ask is that yesterday I drank some of the California Common that I kegged over a week ago, I tasted some after a week and it had a nice caramelly/malty flavour up front and hoppy at the end, a really good beer. A few days later the malty taste has all but gone, one of the forum members has said its highly likely caused by too much oxygen in the beer and most likely introduced when it was transferred from fermenter to the keg?


The hop aroma definitely fades with time, as even commercial kegged examples do, but not to the extent that you've mentioned. From reading a bit about low oxygen brewing, the malt flavour would take a hit with oxygen present. Did you remember to purge the headspace after filling it? Sounds like it could be oxidation and by far, forgetting to purge would be the most likely cause.


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