# Wort Chilling



## a1149913 (18/5/11)

Hey guys, i'm almost ready to get into AG brewing but i'm after a really cheap way of chilling 23L of wort to below 50C pretty quick. I'm not after something that'll get it down to pitching temps just enough to get it below 50C to stop AA conversion. I didn't really want to go out and buy $200 worth of equipment, just something to get it to below 50.

JT


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## [email protected] (18/5/11)

3 m of copper immersion chiller should do the trick pretty quickly. the 100-50 drop happens very quickly. Also above 50C with the chiller set in the top layer of the wort you will get reverse convection occuring so you don't need any kind of whirpooling device.


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## eamonnfoley (18/5/11)

Just buy some copper from bunnings or similar. Bend into shape and make up the hose fittings for either end yourself.


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## donburke (18/5/11)

Jacob Thomas said:


> Hey guys, i'm almost ready to get into AG brewing but i'm after a really cheap way of chilling 23L of wort to below 50C pretty quick. I'm not after something that'll get it down to pitching temps just enough to get it below 50C to stop AA conversion. I didn't really want to go out and buy $200 worth of equipment, just something to get it to below 50.
> 
> JT




if you can lift your pot, then the easiest and probably the cheapest thing to do is pick it up and plonk it in the laundry tub filled with water, and throw some ice in the water for good measure 

works fine for me


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## WarmBeer (18/5/11)

Time to do a search for "No Chill"


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## matho (18/5/11)

Or for about $80 you could make a counter flow chiller from parts you can get from bunnings.





in this weather i can get 24l down to 16 deg in 15 min, i love my counter flow  

cheers matho


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## a1149913 (18/5/11)

matho said:


> Or for about $80 you could make a counter flow chiller from parts you can get from bunnings.
> 
> View attachment 45854
> 
> ...



If you could give me some of the details on your counter chiller that would be awesome. 

I'm not interested in no chilling as it's probably the least effective way of chilling wort (somewhat indicated by the name!). I am a strong believer that bitterness is increased even after hops are removed from wort above 75ishC - hence my reason to quickly chill down to 50. From 50 onwards i'm not to fussed as my sanitation is pretty good.

The other option i was thinking of was buying a transmission cooler and either running the worth through it while in a bucket of cold water or putting the cooler in the wort and running cold water through it. I'm not sure which would be more effective. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT


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## thylacine (18/5/11)

Jacob Thomas said:


> If you could give me some of the details on your counter chiller that would be awesome.
> 
> I'm not interested in no chilling as it's probably the least effective way of chilling wort (somewhat indicated by the name!). I am a strong believer that bitterness is increased even after hops are removed from wort above 75ishC - hence my reason to quickly chill down to 50. From 50 onwards i'm not to fussed as my sanitation is pretty good.
> 
> The other option i was thinking of was buying a transmission cooler and either running the worth through it while in a bucket of cold water or putting the cooler in the wort and running cold water through it. I'm not sure which would be more effective. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT




http://www.fermentarium.com/featured/build...g-wort-chiller/


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## manticle (18/5/11)

Doesn't matter how good your sanitation is - unless it's hermetically selaed, the wort is prime breeding ground for microbial growth at that temperature. That's why no-chill is effective and why quick chilling is also effective.

You've said you're not interested in no chill so you should look at chilling quickly and properly. To my mind, it's one method or the other.

My only experience of chilling is a bath full of iced water. Probably an hour to pitching temp. Next couple of weeks I will finally do my own no-chill:chill comparison with a plate chiller (thanks Thirsty Boy).


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## Wolfy (18/5/11)

matho said:


> Or for about $80 you could make a counter flow chiller from parts you can get from bunnings.


Come and solder mine for me please, it works well but has a few leaks ... I'm not so good at brazing copper pipe.


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## felten (18/5/11)

Jacob Thomas said:


> I am a strong believer that bitterness is increased even after hops are removed from wort above 75ishC


You're right, which is why you alter the hopping rates to suit.


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## balconybrewer (18/5/11)

just get a mashmaster chillout, no stuffin round, awesome quality and chills 23lts to 20deg in 10 mins. a no brainer really. dunno why you would waste your time trying to make one?


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## yardy (18/5/11)

some info and links here chillzilla


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## manticle (18/5/11)

people enjoy making stuff?


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## yardy (18/5/11)

you seemed to enjoy making your sight glass.


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## vic45 (18/5/11)

manticle said:


> people enjoy making stuff?





Building brewing tools is nearly as good as the brewing itself.


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## manticle (18/5/11)

yardy said:


> you seemed to enjoy making your sight glass.



Exactly. Even in that thread people suggested buying one would be easier.

Definitely missing the point.


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## yardy (18/5/11)

vic45 said:


> Building brewing tools is nearly as good as the brewing itself.



how good is it to be drinking beer whilst making more gear to make more beer B)


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## vic45 (18/5/11)

yardy said:


> how good is it to be drinking beer whilst making more gear to make more beer B)




Nearly as good as building gear for your mates to help them get started in A.G.

And then drinking their beer a couple of months later


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## manticle (18/5/11)

yardy said:


> how good is it to be drinking beer whilst making more gear to make more beer B)



And to brew beer on a system you made/modified.


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## felten (18/5/11)

manticle said:


> And to brew beer on a system you made/modified.


Until it breaks.


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## a1149913 (18/5/11)

Your right, there is something about making equipment which i just cant pass up. I think an immersion chiller might be the way to go and then maybe upgrade it to a counter flow chiller if needed. The problem i have with copper is its so expensive and the range in length is pretty minimal at bunnings. I think its 3m or 18m-expensive!.

Can anyone recommend a place in adelaide to get some cheap copper tube?


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## razz (18/5/11)

Jacob Thomas said:


> Your right, there is something about making equipment which i just cant pass up. I think an immersion chiller might be the way to go and then maybe upgrade it to a counter flow chiller if needed. The problem i have with copper is its so expensive and the range in length is pretty minimal at bunnings. I think its 3m or 18m-expensive!.
> 
> Can anyone recommend a place in adelaide to get some cheap copper tube?


Try Bunnings Jacob, I got 18m annealed copper for $99 in a Melbourne store five-six weeks ago.


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## NickB (18/5/11)

Any decent plumbing supply store should be able to sell to you by the metre, and probably at a cheaper price than Bunnies.

Cheers


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## yardy (18/5/11)

felten said:


> Until it breaks.


as in.. 'brew like a madman until it breaks' or.. 'i'm skill challenged and my shit broke' ? :icon_cheers: 



give your local scrap yard a try jacob, it was about $10 a kg the last time i bought some copper from a yard.

cheers


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## CONNOR BREWARE (18/5/11)

my only tip is if at any stage you are using an ice bath add salt, about a cup, this reduces the freezing temp and it get a whole lot colder....


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## matho (18/5/11)

My counter flow is made out of 6m of 12.7mm copper tube, the end fitting are labeled '15mm x 15mm x 20mm tee' the outer tube is PVC but other people use 3/4 hose, use what ever as long as it's a tight fit over the '20mm' end of the tee fittings. Slide the hose over the copper tube, then slide the tee fittings over the tube so that the '20mm' end is facing inwards towards the hose, solder the tee fittings in place slide the hose over the tee fittings and secure with hose clamps.
Before you slide the tee fitting over the copper tube solder a little bit of copper tube in the 12mm tee of the fitting so that later you can put a hose on it.
That's about it doesn't take much to build.


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## felten (18/5/11)

yardy said:


> as in.. 'brew like a madman until it breaks' or.. 'i'm skill challenged and my shit broke' ? :icon_cheers:
> 
> 
> cheers


Usually the latter for me, my homemade brewstand is about to collapse, it looks scary with a 50L pot of boiling wort on it.


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## hhouken (18/5/11)

Pot into laundry tub with some ice & ice packs then use http://www.onlineconversion.com/mixing_water.htm to figure out how much cold water to add to get to pitching temp works for me.


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## Phoney (18/5/11)

balconybrewer said:


> just get a mashmaster chillout, no stuffin round, awesome quality and chills 23lts to 20deg in 10 mins. a no brainer really. dunno why you would waste your time trying to make one?



+1.

Plate chillers shit all over immersion chillers and you don't need to stuff around sourcing bits & pieces etc. Bite the bullet, buy one, happy days.


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## gone_fishing (18/5/11)

Ice bath is expensive (ie you could almost buy a carton for the price of ice and it is ineffective)

Blue cubes: Aka no chill results in drinking beer from plastic that was never meant to be heated to 100 C+ (yes sugar solutions heat to greater than 100C)

Plate chillers: Often plug with "break" material and hops.

Immersion chillers (coils of copper in the boil) work well so long as you "jiggle" the coil from time-to-time to maintain the effects of convection

Counterflow chillers: Copper inside hose are probably the safest, easiest and economical devices for the homebrewer to construct/use.

gf


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## bum (18/5/11)

gone_fishing said:


> Blue cubes: Aka no chill results in drinking beer from plastic that was never meant to be heated to 100 C+ (yes sugar solutions heat to greater than 100C)


There was some other, horrible downside. Wasn't there?

Besides, who is no chilling without whirlpooling? Who is whirlpooling at +100degC?


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## Phoney (18/5/11)

plate chillers pass through break material with no problem, and using a hop sock prevents hop debris from causing cloggage.


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## WarmBeer (18/5/11)

Jacob Thomas said:


> I'm not interested in no chilling as it's probably the least effective way of chilling wort (somewhat indicated by the name!). I am a strong believer that bitterness is increased even after hops are removed from wort above 75ishC - hence my reason to quickly chill down to 50. From 50 onwards i'm not to fussed as my sanitation is pretty good.


Yeah, I guess you're right. Nobody ever won an award with a no-chilled beer...


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## felten (18/5/11)

HDPE can withstand 120c for short periods, and 110c continuously.


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## gone_fishing (18/5/11)

bum said:


> There was some other, horrible downside. Wasn't there?
> 
> Besides, who is no chilling without whirlpooling? Who is whirlpooling at +100degC?



Everyone including you? Turn the heat off.....whirlpool.... wait.... bluecube (rated at 65C).

Bum, can you tell me how long it takes for a 10% sugar solution to decrease from 110C to 65C?

gf


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## bum (18/5/11)

gone_fishing said:


> Bum, can you tell me how long it takes for a 10% sugar solution to decrease from 110C to 65C?


Nah. Not sure how it is relevant though because my cube doesn't see 110C wort - and if anyone else's does they aren't trying to keep hot-break and trub out of their beer.

At what temp does BOTULISM become a worry, exactly? I usually pack at just a shade above 80C (as would anyone else who is hoping to whirlpool without convection currents ******* the job up).

You worry about no-chilling in plastic - what of the numerous people using polyclar without filtering?


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## gone_fishing (18/5/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Yeah, I guess you're right. Nobody ever won an award with a no-chilled beer...




Award winning for taste........probably. Using a cube for "no chill" and those consuming detrimental effects........probably.

Perhaps all the "nay sayers" should boil some water in a HDPE container, add malt extract, add yeast and see how they grow?

My experience is that they won't. 

Perhaps it is the microwave? No, its not the microwave as water in glass supports normal growth of yeast.

Perhaps it is the HDPE in a microwave....maybe.

gf


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## gone_fishing (18/5/11)

bum said:


> Nah. Not sure how it is relevant though because my cube doesn't see 110C wort - and if anyone else's does they aren't trying to keep hot-break and trub out of their beer.
> 
> At what temp does BOTULISM become a worry, exactly? I usually pack at just a shade above 80C (as would anyone else who is hoping to whirlpool without convection currents ******* the job up).
> 
> You worry about no-chilling in plastic - what of the numerous people using polyclar without filtering?



Bum,

You seem to be swearing so calm down fella.

Polyclar. Yeah its a worry.

Be safe out there. Just because you can "bend the rules" doesn't mean you are right.

gf


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## gone_fishing (18/5/11)

felten said:


> HDPE can withstand 120c for short periods, and 110c continuously.



Felten,

I agree HDPE can sustain those temps. Ever notice HDPE with hot wort becomes stained? Its most probably because of a melting of the plastic and an exchange of chemical entities (plasticisers)

Yes, I know....I/my wife/partner/friend microwaves in plastic.

I ask , is it usual for this person to hold acidic sugar solutions for extended times (12 hr+) at these temps?

gf


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## gone_fishing (18/5/11)

phoneyhuh said:


> plate chillers pass through break material with no problem, and using a hop sock prevents hop debris from causing cloggage.




Hey phoneyhuh,

Ever opened up a plate chiller after a year of use? Its full of particles/lumps/green with and without a "hop sock"
gf


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## Bada Bing Brewery (18/5/11)

My Willow no chill cubes haven't changed colour at all, no staining anywhere. I no chill and ferment in them. I agree with Bum - the wort goes in at about 80C and I chuck mine in the backyard pool - usually at pitching temp in a couple of hours .... no drama's
Cheers
BBB


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## bum (18/5/11)

gone_fishing said:


> You seem to be swearing so calm down fella.


Swearing is the rule rather than the exception. If I start trying to meter my responses that's usually a better indicator that I'm redlining.



gone_fishing said:


> Just because you can "bend the rules" doesn't mean you are right.


Just because you declare something a rule doesn't mean it is. Surely no-chilling has been around long enough now and enough beer has certainly been drunk for some sort of ill-effect to have manifest by now - what do you propose this is? You know, apart from some feeling that plastic must be bad for you?

As for your claim about the staining of cubes, yeah, mine goes dark sometimes - even darker with black beers. Funny that. Always goes away with a napisan soak - perhaps napisan rejuvenates distorted plasticisers? It's a ******* miracle! FSM be praised!

[EDIT: spooling]


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## bum (18/5/11)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> I agree with Bum - the wort goes in at about 80C and I chuck mine in the backyard pool - usually at pitching temp in a couple of hours .... no drama's


Only pointing this out because my name is mentioned in the same sentence - I do not personally recommend the slow-ish chilling of a cube. This undoes one of the benefits of no-chilling, for my money. Pretty sure you need the extended periods of higher heat for the method to work as designed.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (18/5/11)

:icon_offtopic: Bum which part of slowish no chill do you think it 'undoes' - Taste? Hygiene? any info appreciated.
To add insult to injury I just went to the beer room at home to find a LCBA I brewed last weekend in a cube that was about to explode .... a tragedy. Was planning on pitching tomorrow .... 
Cheers
BBB


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## manticle (18/5/11)

The theory of no chill is that the wort spends a good amount of time in a sealed, oxygen depleted space at temperatures above those favoured by microbial growth. This increases the sanitary aspect.

If you work against this by cooling the cube quickly rather than naturally you theoretically run the risk of getting the wort to the point at which it is vulnerable to attack from bacteria etc before the heat packing does its thing.

The point of no-chill to me is that it is 'no-chill'. If you want to speed up the process then chill - otherwise wait till it cools itself.

Halfway is halfarsed.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (18/5/11)

Thanks Manticle
I think I may now no chill (when it will stand for days/weeks before pitching) and keep the halfarsed slow chill when I need to pitch the same day.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Cheers
BBB


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## manticle (18/5/11)

I pitch the next day with almost every brew. Overnight gets the beer to where you want.


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## jimi (18/5/11)

At the risk of getting this back on topic and off no-chilling - I agree with Manticle about the dangers of chilling just to 50C and I take that to be his point about half chilling being half arsed.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (18/5/11)

Jimi
I doesnt chill to 50C - that would be pointless I agree. The halfarsed slow chill in the pool method gets it from 80C to 18C in a couple of hours. Very useful if you want to pitch the same day and have no access to wort/plate chillers.
Cheers
BBB


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## felten (18/5/11)

gone_fishing said:


> Felten,
> 
> I agree HDPE can sustain those temps. Ever notice HDPE with hot wort becomes stained? Its most probably because of a melting of the plastic and an exchange of chemical entities (plasticisers)
> 
> ...



Apparently HDPE's melting point is 130c, my no-chilling cube isn't stained at all, I don't know anyone that microwaves their wort for 12+ hours.

http://www.dynalabcorp.com/technical_info_...olyethylene.asp

Maybe you should send your queries to Mr. Plastic, I hear he has a wealth of technical, practical and even some hysterical plastic advice.


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## a1149913 (19/5/11)

Thoughts on using this as an immersion chiller? 

Transmission cooler

JT


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## gap (19/5/11)

Jacob Thomas said:


> Thoughts on using this as an immersion chiller?
> 
> Transmission cooler
> 
> JT


What materials are used in its construction? 

Is the material food safe and beer safe?
Does the wort run through it or is it submersed in the wort?

Regards

Graeme


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## donburke (19/5/11)

gap said:


> What materials are used in its construction?
> 
> Is the material food safe and beer safe?
> Does the wort run through it or is it submersed in the wort?
> ...



i think the liquid (oil) passes through the coil and the external fins dissipate the heat by having airflowing through it

i dont think it would cool the liquid very well, plus you'd need a fan


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## jimi (19/5/11)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Jimi
> I doesnt chill to 50C - that would be pointless I agree. The halfarsed slow chill in the pool method gets it from 80C to 18C in a couple of hours. Very useful if you want to pitch the same day and have no access to wort/plate chillers.
> Cheers
> BBB



BBB
I think Manticle was referring to Jacob's plan to chill halfway (50C) as being halfarsed. I was trying to move the topic back to what I thought the original (Jacobs) post was questioning, not the never die no-chill debate. 
Theres been plenty suggesting how to do it (get it down to 50C) but at present only Manticle and myself have cautioned against it.


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## a1149913 (19/5/11)

I was thinking of using it as an immersion chiller (just like the copper pipe) so i'd run cold water through the cooler and dunk it into the beer.


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## donburke (19/5/11)

Jacob Thomas said:


> I was thinking of using it as an immersion chiller (just like the copper pipe) so i'd run cold water through the cooler and dunk it into the beer.




that should work, 

but check that the material its made of is food safe

also you will need to keep moving it around whilst cooling, or move the wort around


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## Phoney (19/5/11)

gone_fishing said:


> Hey phoneyhuh,
> 
> Ever opened up a plate chiller after a year of use? Its full of particles/lumps/green with and without a "hop sock"
> gf



It's impossible to open mine up, but I confidently say that a good soak of PBW through the thing after each use cleans it good & proper.


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## Wolfman (19/5/11)

Does anyone have the no chill thread link? Searched to no avail.


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## Bribie G (19/5/11)

gone-fishing, do you still have concerns about the polyester used in BIAB bags as you used to post a couple of years ago?


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