# Gluten Free Beer



## durgarth (12/2/08)

Hi guys, first posting for me. I have been an AG brewer brewer from some time. My eldest son is now of a beer drinking age and I don't want him to miss out on all the fun. I have read up on producing a Gluten Free beer, and the base ingredients, however i am having trouble tracking down Pale sorghum malt. Does anyone know where I can obtain some from in Australia (prepared and cracked would be good....one can only hope).


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/2/08)

durgarth said:


> Hi guys, first posting for me. I have been an AG brewer brewer from some time. My eldest son is now of a beer drinking age and I don't want him to miss out on all the fun. I have read up on producing a Gluten Free beer, and the base ingredients, however i am having trouble tracking down Pale sorghum malt. Does anyone know where I can obtain some from in Australia (prepared and cracked would be good....one can only hope).


Interesting you should bring this up right now.Im looking at getting or trying to find some malted Buck wheat if such a thing exists.Sorry I cant help you out with you sorghum either.Do you have any good sites to check on how to brew gluen free?Im just at the considering stage to see if its viable.
GB


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## Jye (12/2/08)

Hey durgarth and welcome to AHB :beer: 

Check out this thread and send Mothballs a PM, he has brewed a few and they havent been too bad. But from what he has told me they are a nightmare to mash, so I would be going with the extract when he has it in stock.

Fill in your location in your profile and maybe some of the locals will jump in with some help.

Cheers
Jye


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## durgarth (12/2/08)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Interesting you should bring this up right now.Im looking at getting or trying to find some malted Buck wheat if such a thing exists.Sorry I cant help you out with you sorghum either.Do you have any good sites to check on how to brew gluen free?Im just at the considering stage to see if its viable.
> GB
> 
> The best pages that I have found which gives sufficient detail is the Sillyyak pages. See Below. Although there are plenty of pages out there you just have to dig a bit deeper. Durgarth
> ...


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## durgarth (12/2/08)

Jye said:


> Hey durgarth and welcome to AHB :beer:
> 
> Check out this thread and send Mothballs a PM, he has brewed a few and they havent been too bad. But from what he has told me they are a nightmare to mash, so I would be going with the extract when he has it in stock.
> 
> ...



Thanks your a champ. Profile updated by the way. I had fun doing it too.


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## Adamt (12/2/08)

I think "Millet Man", from O'Briens brewery would be the best to ask about this. I'm sure theres a few threads about, do a search for "gluten free" with the "s.


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## durgarth (12/2/08)

Thanks....I dug a bit and found heaps of info and guys willing to share their experience. Its hard to find the malted grains needed, but I suppose that means I just need to expand the shed/brewing room and do it myself.


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## rich_lamb (12/2/08)

I can get malted sorghum from "Grain and Grape" here in Melbourne - I'm sure they'd post to you.

They won't crush it for you as they want to avoid cross-contamination with other grains. Fair enough. I crushed mine with a coffee grinder as I needed a pretty fine crush anyway. I don't own a mill.

But yeah, if you have the option of kits I'd use them. Mashing with GF grains is a real bitch!


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## rich_lamb (12/2/08)

Oh yeah - and I bought some puffed Amaranth from them as well. It's not malted though.
Once you've looked into the process for mashing GF you - like myself - may decide to use packaged enzymes anyway so malting becomes a non issue and your grain selection opens up.

I'm by no means an expert at GF: as they say, talk to Millet Man. He's a god at this stuff.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/2/08)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> Oh yeah - and I bought some puffed Amaranth from them as well. It's not malted though.
> Once you've looked into the process for mashing GF you - like myself - may decide to use packaged enzymes anyway so malting becomes a non issue and your grain selection opens up.
> 
> I'm by no means an expert at GF: as they say, talk to Millet Man. He's a god at this stuff.


Hey B&T I am interested on how and way you use enzymes.Does it convert the Gluten or some thing similar?Souds to simple or have I missed some thing?
GB


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## rich_lamb (12/2/08)

The enzymes don't convert Gluten, as theoretically there is none (or "almost" none) in these grains.

The problem is that the grains themselves aren't great for brewing for a number of reasons, one is they have low diastatic power. Have a look at this GF Brewing which explains it all nicely.

I'm suggesting that rather than muck around carefully saving the thin mash and enzymes (as described) you might just make life easy and use packet enzymes. I haven't tried it yet though - I don't get many GF brews down. So little time, so much beer to make


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## geoffi (12/2/08)

Friend of mine has a possible gluten intolerance and is a keen beer drinker. I've offered to make him a batch. Grain and grape have the malted sorghum, so I'm planning to use that as the base, with some maize (maybe popped corn) and rice. The enzyme idea sounds like a goer, as the mashing seems to be otherwise a PITA.

It will be interesting to see how it turns out. Me, I'm planning to remain gluten tolerant...


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## durgarth (12/2/08)

Geoff,

I too plan to remain on the "Barley & Wheat train", but I have an 18y/o who wants to have some beer and who am I to deny him the opportunity  . Besides which I like the brewing and the "art".


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## Millet Man (13/2/08)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Interesting you should bring this up right now.Im looking at getting or trying to find some malted Buck wheat if such a thing exists.Sorry I cant help you out with you sorghum either.Do you have any good sites to check on how to brew gluen free?Im just at the considering stage to see if its viable.
> GB


GB,

Why malted buckwheat? I've used it many times in the past but it has such a strong flavour it needs to be cut with another grain/malt. Great for wheat beer type head and cloudiness but is also prone to scorching and a stuck sparge. You won't find any commercially available in Oz, or anywhere else for that matter.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Millet Man (13/2/08)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> The enzymes don't convert Gluten, as theoretically there is none (or "almost" none) in these grains.
> 
> The problem is that the grains themselves aren't great for brewing for a number of reasons, one is they have low diastatic power. Have a look at this GF Brewing which explains it all nicely.
> 
> I'm suggesting that rather than muck around carefully saving the thin mash and enzymes (as described) you might just make life easy and use packet enzymes. I haven't tried it yet though - I don't get many GF brews down. So little time, so much beer to make



B&T,

If the grains are malted then you won't find any flavour difference in using the malt's enzymes or commercial enzymes. You will get a big difference in efficiency though especially with sorghum malt, the commercial enzymes can't breakdown the protein/starch matrix as well as the sorghum malts own enzymes can.

Using raw grains and commercial enzymes will give you a beer of sorts but the flavour will be quite different to using malted grains - equivalent to making a beer from raw barley extract compared to malted barley. The liquid sorghum extract made by Briess (promoted by some outlets as sorghum malt extract...shame, shame, shame) is made from raw grain not malt so while it will be a lot easier to use for brewing it will not be the same as using malted sorghum.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## geoffi (15/2/08)

OK.

Grain and Grape have malted sorghum for $5.50 / kg.

This is my first-draft recipe for ~ 20 litres of gluten-free lager:

3 kg malted sorghum
1 kg rice
0.5 kg maize (popped corn)
0.3 kg cane sugar

Hallertau to about 22 IBU
Hallertau aroma

S-189

Any comments/criticisms from experienced gluten-free-ers?

Should I add enzymes, or will the enzymes in the malt suffice?

Is whirlfloc advisable?

Should I use a dark sugar? I hear sorghum-based beer is very pale.


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## turto77 (15/2/08)

Hi guys,
it's not AG but I found this the other day

http://www.gfhomebrewing.com.au/


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## SpillsMostOfIt (15/2/08)

Turto said:


> Hi guys,
> it's not AG but I found this the other day
> 
> http://www.gfhomebrewing.com.au/



I have one quarter of one of their kits sitting waiting for a friend to taste. It took her several attempts to get them to sell her the kit - if you want to try one, I recommend telephoning them rather than their website.


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## turto77 (15/2/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I have one quarter of one of their kits sitting waiting for a friend to taste. It took her several attempts to get them to sell her the kit - if you want to try one, I recommend telephoning them rather than their website.



Spils, I would be interested in finding out if it is any good, i have a mate that wants me to make up a batch for him, but he's a bit hesitant at paying $50 for the kit.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (15/2/08)

Turto said:


> Spils, I would be interested in finding out if it is any good, i have a mate that wants me to make up a batch for him, but he's a bit hesitant at paying $50 for the kit.



I see it as an interesting exercise and as determining a baseline flavour profile, etc, etc. I expect to have to work hard at mashing and being creative with ingredients to get something she and I are happy with. Tasting happens in March.


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## Millet Man (15/2/08)

Geoffi said:


> OK.
> 
> Grain and Grape have malted sorghum for $5.50 / kg.
> 
> ...


Geoffi,

Looks good but a couple of comments;

Malt/grain quantities look fine, should give an OG of 1.040 - 1.060 depending on how fine you crush. Given it's your first go I'd say it will be in the 40's so about right.

I have stopped using a fining agent as I find sorghum malt beer clears very nicely without it.

3.0 kg of sorghum malt will be struggling to convert 1.5 kg of raw grain (particularly beta amyase), I'd halve the amount and replace it with some maize or rice syrup or add some enzymes to give it a boost along.

You're right, the recipe will be very pale (i'd guess a light straw colour) since sorghum malt is kilned at low temperatures to preserve enzymes, I'd add about 100g of treacle to bump it up to a straw/golden colour, that will also give the head a little boost. You could roast a small amount of malt (30-40g of finished product) until it's black to get the same effect but it gets smokey in the kitchen!

Have fun.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## geoffi (15/2/08)

Thanks for those tips, Andrew. I'll replace the rice with syrup, and add 100g treacle. I might keep the popcorn in to give it a little 'corniness'.

If I add some enzyme, is there a specific type I should use, eg Modiferm etc?



Millet Man said:


> Geoffi,
> 
> Looks good but a couple of comments;
> 
> ...


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## Millet Man (18/2/08)

Geoffi said:


> Thanks for those tips, Andrew. I'll replace the rice with syrup, and add 100g treacle. I might keep the popcorn in to give it a little 'corniness'.
> 
> If I add some enzyme, is there a specific type I should use, eg Modiferm etc?


Geoffi,

There's a couple you could use that are your local HBS might have :

Improzyme - A protease, glucanase, and alpha amylase that is good for GF brewing because the alpha amylase has an optimum temp around 85C which is above the gelatinisation temp of GF grains.

Modiferm - An amyloglucosidase (makes glucose) that has an optimum temp of around 60C so you can use it in the mash after gelatinisation or in the boiler after lautering and before you put the heat on, about an hour should do. If you use it in the fermenter as recommended it will keep producing glucose and you'll end up with a very dry beer.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (19/2/08)

From the latest Brewer and distiller Mag.


> The Canadian malting barley technical center in Winnipeg has the third largest brewery in the provence of Manatoba.With the biggest brewer Fort Gary ( part of the British Columbia based Russell Brewing), It has developed 'Newbru" for PureFarm beverages which is gluten free for those afflicted with coeliac disease.CMBTC MD Rob McCaig told us that he used high maltose corn syrup with pea, lentil and bean extract to add carbohydrates and protein which mainstream beers get from barley malt.Sadly most of Robs output is experimental and by law has to go down the drain.[end quote]
> Boy sounds like it would make a good curry as well as a beer.I wonder how many indians are coeliacs and if there is a connection to different diets?Any body know.
> GB


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## geoffi (19/2/08)

Thanks again, Andrew. Sounds like either of these might do the trick, with differing procedures. I'm ordering my sorghum tomorrow, so it's all systems go.





Millet Man said:


> Geoffi,
> 
> There's a couple you could use that are your local HBS might have :
> 
> ...


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## Millet Man (19/2/08)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> From the latest Brewer and distiller Mag.
> 
> 
> > The Canadian malting barley technical center in Winnipeg has the third largest brewery in the provence of Manatoba.With the biggest brewer Fort Gary ( part of the British Columbia based Russell Brewing), It has developed 'Newbru" for PureFarm beverages which is gluten free for those afflicted with coeliac disease.CMBTC MD Rob McCaig told us that he used high maltose corn syrup with pea, lentil and bean extract to add carbohydrates and protein which mainstream beers get from barley malt.Sadly most of Robs output is experimental and by law has to go down the drain.
> ...


Sounds yummy :blink: 

I remember reading an article that stated Coeliac Disease is more prevalent in cultures where gluten (wheat, barley etc...) was introduced more recently, such as Ireland and Finland. The rest of Europe is also quite high most likely due to gluten grains being a staple food, and less people die from it now they know what the causes is. AFAIK other cultures that have rice, sorghum, millet, maize, lentils as a staple food have a lower incidence of CD.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (28/2/08)

MY GF friend is yet to return, but I cracked my taster recently. This is from one quarter of the kit purchased from Queensland.

It was a beautifully clear beer, supporting Millet Man's comments about sorghum and clarity. Following their directions, you get a not very hoppy outcome. It was very thin and dry and had what I think of as a characteristic sorghum flavour. For what it is, it isn't bad, but I'm hoping to improve on it next time.

I like the treacle idea, but I'm also thinking about roasting some pumpkin then throwing some enzymes at it in an attempt to add character and thickness as well as upping the hop flavour.


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## geoffi (7/4/08)

Well, the deed is done.

Spent most of yesterday wrestling with the GF AG. I followed the instructions on the sillyyak site, and did the Schmitz method decoction mash, but also added some Modiferm in the sac rest @ 65c.

3kg malted sorghum
500g rice
350g popped corn
400g golden syrup
12g Green Bullet @ 60
20g Tett @ 30
20g Tett @ 10

A few observations:

The decoction is more like making a huge batch of porridge than 'normal' decoction boiling. It gets very, very thick and scorches easily. You must stir constantly. (In fact it smelled and tasted almost exactly like the malted sorghum porridge my South African in-laws sometimes have. Just a bit lumpier)

Try this without rice hulls and you would be in big trouble. It would be like trying to sparge porridge. I used 500g hulls and got a nice easy run off.

The wort is very, very pale. I had planned to use treacle to colour it up, but only had golden syrup.

In the boil, there is no break material to speak of. I added some whirlfloc and it seemed to have no effect whatsoever. After whirlpooling and draining the kettle there was just a hop pellet residue, no break.

I ended up with 26 litres @ 1.040, which was more wort and lower gravity than planned. (70% efficiency, which I was very happy with for a first go.)

If the resulting beer is acceptable, I might have another crack at this, but it is a long brew day.


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## blackbock (7/4/08)

> If the resulting beer is acceptable, I might have another crack at this, but it is a long brew day.



Geoffie, no gain without pain first!


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## Millet Man (7/4/08)

Geoffi said:


> Well, the deed is done.
> 
> Spent most of yesterday wrestling with the GF AG. I followed the instructions on the sillyyak site, and did the Schmitz method decoction mash, but also added some Modiferm in the sac rest @ 65c.
> 
> ...


Well done Geoffi,

Hope the beer comes out good for you. What yeast did you use?

I used to use irish moss but as you noticed there is very little trub so I don't bother any more.

After doing a GF AG it will be a walk in the park to go back to a standard drop infusion mash!

Give us an update on how it ferments and tastes.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (7/4/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I see it as an interesting exercise and as determining a baseline flavour profile, etc, etc. I expect to have to work hard at mashing and being creative with ingredients to get something she and I are happy with. Tasting happens in March.



Thanks to Geoffi for touching this thread and prodding me. I tasted this with my intolerant friend recently. I think it was about on a par with the Silly Yaks bottled pale. It needs, in my view, some more hopping to liven it up a bit and something to add as a malty taste replacement.

I'm thinking about treacle or golden syrup or something like that at the moment and perhaps some dry hopping - cascade flowers.

Any thoughts on this sort of treatment and what sort of quantities?


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## geoffi (7/4/08)

Andrew,

I have it sitting in a cube, so I haven't pitched yet. But I have a few options I'm toying with: US-05, S-33 and S-189 (probably fermented at low ale temps, which has produced extremely clean beers for me). 

Any thoughts on yeast for this one?


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## Millet Man (7/4/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Thanks to Geoffi for touching this thread and prodding me. I tasted this with my intolerant friend recently. I think it was about on a par with the Silly Yaks bottled pale. It needs, in my view, some more hopping to liven it up a bit and something to add as a malty taste replacement.
> 
> I'm thinking about treacle or golden syrup or something like that at the moment and perhaps some dry hopping - cascade flowers.
> 
> Any thoughts on this sort of treatment and what sort of quantities?


Spills,

I'd try about 200 g of treacle in a 20 lt batch - should add a hint of caramel and a bit of colour. Cascade sounds good but don't over do it as there isn't the malt body to balance it compared to a barley malt beer.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Millet Man (7/4/08)

Geoffi said:


> Andrew,
> 
> I have it sitting in a cube, so I haven't pitched yet. But I have a few options I'm toying with: US-05, S-33 and S-189 (probably fermented at low ale temps, which has produced extremely clean beers for me).
> 
> Any thoughts on yeast for this one?


Geoffi,

I'd go for something that won't ferment too dry and will add a bit of esters as well. Never tried S-189 but S-33 should be good. For my pale ale I use a blend of S-04 (leaves some body and adds esters) and US-05 (cleans up diacetyl from S-04) and that works well IMHO.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (7/4/08)

Cheers, Millet Man.

I'm thinking of fermenting this batch with Nottingham. I might try 100g each of golden syrup and treacle, just to complicate things as I do...


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## durgarth (7/4/08)

Just reporting back...................Sunday was tasting day for us. Not sure if I mentioned it before, but we purchased a kit from QLD. After reading theough this thread my son and I added some extra hops and 500grams of Golden Syrup. The fermentation went well and ran well over 10 days. We placed the brew straight into bottles (as my kegs have been used for Gluten beer for several years).

After all this I have to agree with Spils, the taste, well its OK. Not great but Ok. After 4 it was better :icon_chickcheers: . The beer was clear as a bell, nice carbonation, but the head retention was poor. We certainly will be making another, and after reading your thoughts we will probably add some other bits and peices, including rice flakes, treacle and extra hops (probably Cascade) to beef up the overall performance. 


Steve


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## Millet Man (7/4/08)

durgarth said:


> After all this I have to agree with Spils, the taste, well its OK. Not great but Ok. After 4 it was better :icon_chickcheers: . The beer was clear as a bell, nice carbonation, but the head retention was poor. We certainly will be making another, and after reading your thoughts we will probably add some other bits and peices, including rice flakes, treacle and extra hops (probably Cascade) to beef up the overall performance.


Steve,

Glad it was OK, I've been meaning to try one of those kits myself out of interest, to see what the raw sorghum syrup brews like. Head retention is tricky on gf beers so I'm not surprised the sorghum syrup struggled to keep a head, the long ferment also suggests it lacks the right amount of FAN for yeast nutrition. But it made a beer and that's good!

Cheers, Andrew.


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