# K&kiab



## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

G'day guys. Ive been a member for a while now and done a few Kit and Kilo brews which my mates have all raved on about.  

I've looked into Nicks $30 stove top AG thread and learn't heaps about BIAB from that thread and this place in general.

So I'm not quite ready for AG yet and only have limited equipment, but could I do a Kit and Kilo brew as I have heaps of coopers kits and dex, LDM etc in my cupboard in a bag?

I can borrow my mates crab cooker and pot and SWMBO can make me a swisse voila (is that how you speel it?) bag and i'm good too go.

So will this make a better beer than just my usual kit and kilo's that I mix in the fermenter?

Has anyone tried this? 

If so how did it turn out and if it was good are there any recipes I should try?

Thanks Steve


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## manticle (23/7/12)

Do you mean make a small wort with some grain and add it to your usual kit in addition/in place of sugar or dry malt?

If so - look up partial mashing and mini-mashing.

You will need to understand the concepts of mashing (vs steeping specialty grains) and the concept of boiling wort for hop bittering and flavour and calculate IBU including that given by the pre-bittered kit.

Some links:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=5393
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-parti...ing-pics-75231/


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## glenwal (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> I can borrow my mates crab cooker and pot



As per the $30 thread, all you need is a pot and some voile - so your not lacking anything for doing a full AG batch.


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## Yob (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> So I'm not quite ready for AG yet and only have limited equipment, but could I do a Kit and Kilo brew as I have heaps of coopers kits and dex, LDM etc in my cupboard in a bag?
> 
> I can borrow my mates crab cooker and pot and SWMBO can make me a swisse voila (is that how you speel it?) bag and i'm good too go.
> 
> So will this make a better beer than just my usual kit and kilo's that I mix in the fermenter?



I was making some very respectable beers from Kits and Bits, Bits of grain can add freshness back to the deal and added hops can add a bunch of flavour and aroma... Id say get started with a partial to wrap logistics up and then progress as you feel comfortable with..

Some _*VERY*_ decent beer can be made in this fashion.

Yob


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

manticle said:


> Do you mean make a small wort with some grain and add it to your usual kit in addition/in place of sugar or dry malt?
> 
> If so - look up partial mashing and mini-mashing.
> 
> ...



Wow thanks for the quick replies guys. 

I thought that doing what I normally do in the fermenter but in a bag and boiled up would make a better beer. Obviously I have to learn more about IBU's and stuff.

Doesn't the bag and boiling make all the difference?

I told my mate about BIAB and he said I should use the coopers kits up first but just do them in a bag, so like K&KIAB sorta thing.

Does that sound right?


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## rotten (23/7/12)

Gday mate. Can you explain this K&KIAB thing? It sounds interesting. You may just help another aspiring brewer.


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## glenwal (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> Wow thanks for the quick replies guys.
> 
> I thought that doing what I normally do in the fermenter but in a bag and boiled up would make a better beer. Obviously I have to learn more about IBU's and stuff.
> 
> ...




the bag is used to hold the grain - it has no use with a straight kit. You can however steep small amounts of specialty grains in a bag to add to your kit beer.

No need to boil up your kit. Boiling is to extract bitterness from hops, kits are already bittered. You can add extra hop additions to help improve your kit, but as a starting point you can just steep them in a small hop bag (ie. Hop Tea Bag) without the need to boil them up.


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## chrisso81 (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> I've looked into Nicks $30 stove top AG thread and learn't heaps about BIAB from that thread and this place in general.



<_< You sure you actually read the thread? Considering the question you've posted here, I would suggest that perhaps you have not learnt 'heaps' but have missed the point completely. :blink: 
Never fear tho, manticles links and the advice here will get you back on course :super:


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## manticle (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> Wow thanks for the quick replies guys.
> 
> I thought that doing what I normally do in the fermenter but in a bag and boiled up would make a better beer. Obviously I have to learn more about IBU's and stuff.
> 
> ...



Read these links:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=31
http://brewwiki.com/index.php/Extract_Brewing
http://morebeer.com/themes/morewinepro/mmp...ractBrewing.pdf
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=80

As Glen said - no need for a bag if just using a tin and some sugar or malt extract.
No real need for a boil if not using hops.


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## Jay Cee (23/7/12)

Not once have you mentioned grain. What do think the bag is for, it doesn't add much flavour on it's own.


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## Jay Cee (23/7/12)

Introducing..... Can In A Bag








Or this:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13.html


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## rotten (23/7/12)

Can you get a kilo of sugar in there too? For those who may want to give it a go.


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

chrisso81 said:


> <_< You sure you actually read the thread? Considering the question you've posted here, I would suggest that perhaps you have not learnt 'heaps' but have missed the point completely. :blink:
> Never fear tho, manticles links and the advice here will get you back on course :super:



All good I understand that you guys boil grains from scratch and make all grain beer with hops and stuff. Even in Nick's thread the $30 one it makes sense, jus that I had some more cans of coopers kits that I wanted to use before I start full AG.




manticle said:


> Read these links:
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=31
> http://brewwiki.com/index.php/Extract_Brewing
> ...



Cool, cheers Manticle so I need to add hops to make it worth boiling the coopers kits otherwise Iis a waste of time?

Cheers for the help, I'm new to this.


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## Murcluf (23/7/12)

Jay Cee said:


> Not once have you mentioned grain. What do think the bag is for, it doesn't add much flavour on it's own.


unless he is using a mash paddle made from koala pelts?????


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## manticle (23/7/12)

You boil hops with some malt (extract or from grain) to get bitterness, flavour and aroma.

Kits (not malt extract tins) have been pre-bittered. While you can boil them with extra hops, you will add bitterness so need to take that into account.


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

rotten said:


> Gday mate. Can you explain this K&KIAB thing? It sounds interesting. You may just help another aspiring brewer.



G'day Rotten. I'd love to help somone in my position but without being to brash I'm not sure if this K7KIAB thing is any good. Ill do one on the weekend with my coopers cans and let you know how it goes.

They're a little old as my mate gave them to me as he nolonger brews. Its guys like him who like my beer but are to slack to do homebrew that make me want to get good at it as they always go on about my beer but don'y make the effort. 

I reckon if this kit and kilo thing is better through a bag I'll introduce them to that as its not that the kit and kilo thing is hard to do more that they're scared of pushing the boundries and making real beer, know what I mean?

Hopefully if they like these new beers more and can improve their sterilizing they will jump on board and maybe even join this forum, heaps of great info and help on here. Thanks guys, cheers Steve


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## glenwal (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> I reckon if this kit and kilo thing is better through a bag



I'm still not sure what your putting in the bag?


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## rotten (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> G'day Rotten. I'd love to help somone in my position but without being to brash I'm not sure if this K7KIAB thing is any good. Ill do one on the weekend with my coopers cans and let you know how it goes.
> 
> They're a little old as my mate gave them to me as he nolonger brews. Its guys like him who like my beer but are to slack to do homebrew that make me want to get good at it as they always go on about my beer but don'y make the effort.
> 
> ...



subscribed B)


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

Murcluf said:


> unless he is using a mash paddle made from koala pelts?????



Koala pelts? Like hop pelets or something. Do Koala's have something to do with hops like, they poop and they're poop fertilizes hops or something????

I don't post here much because I don't understabd alot of what I read here. This is like the first night I've sat here and asked questions.



manticle said:


> You boil hops with some malt (extract or from grain) to get bitterness, flavour and aroma.
> 
> Kits (not malt extract tins) have been pre-bittered. While you can boil them with extra hops, you will add bitterness so need to take that into account.



So I shouldn't boil the kits/cans at all and just steep them and then add hops and boil, like a proper AG beer?

Il try reading those links you sent me so I can work all this out for myself. BTW bad religion rule, cheers Steve


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## GuyQLD (23/7/12)

Boiling those coopers tins is probably slightly detrimental, they are already pre-hopped so by boiling them you're upsetting the "flavour" that's already been created in them. 

It's more common to make hop tea when dealing with these pre-hopped tins to add flavour/freshness/aroma.

As to "kit-kiab" as your friend has suggested, I don't think he gets the point of BIAB, the bag only serves the purpose of filtering the grains out - with your kits there are no grains. As to the boil, if you're boiling anything you only need short times to pastureise; again your tins already are so what's the point? You could look into steeping grains to add some freshness to the kits and you might want to use your bag there, but any old saucepan will work - you don't need huge volumes (Just don't boil grain... grain comes out before you turn that sucker on).

I'm probably just regurgitating Manticles posts here so I'll quit while I'm behind. Besides after my drunken panic posting last night I'm hardly qualified to add anything useful; but I found partials and kits'n'bits more confusing than just diving into all grain. All grain I know what the hell I'm working with. Kits I'm guessing at best (Or relying on IanH's excellent spreadsheet).


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

Glen W said:


> I'm still not sure what your putting in the bag?




The coopers sparkling ale kit and the coopers malt exstract kit like in the DSGA recipe. I thought by filtering it throught the bag and then boiling it it would improve my brew but looks like I might have got it wrong. Thanks for all the quick replies guys, can bearly keep up with the typing. My fingers are on fire LOL



rotten said:


> subscribed B)



Rotten what does subscribed mean. Does it mean you wan to know how my K&KIAB thing works out or is it so you can help along the way.

Have you done one before and if so can you point me in the rght direction. The kits and the extra hops ect that the DSGA recipe needs is like $30 and I dont want to stuff it up. Cheers Steve


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## glenwal (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> The coopers sparkling ale kit and the coopers malt exstract kit like in the DSGA recipe. I thought by filtering it throught the bag and then boiling it it would improve my brew but looks like I might have got it wrong. Thanks for all the quick replies guys, can bearly keep up with the typing. My fingers are on fire LOL


 Yep - way off track. The bag is just to hold the grains during the mash. No grain = no use for a bag


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## Jay Cee (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> All good I understand that you guys boil grains



No, we don't boil grains. The grains are steeped at a set temperature, removed from the liquid, then the liquid is boiled. 




gadjitsteve said:


> I thought by filtering it throught the bag



Filtering what, exactly?

You really need to read the linked pages


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## rotten (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> Rotten what does subscribed mean. Does it mean you wan to know how my K&KIAB thing works out or is it so you can help along the way.
> 
> Have you done one before and if so can you point me in the rght direction. The kits and the extra hops ect that the DSGA recipe needs is like $30 and I dont want to stuff it up. Cheers Steve



I'd like to help along the way and see how it works out for you and your mate. I AG only but maybe the bag could help with the hops that you add and filter the tin goop or malt ? I agree that $30 is a lot to spend on a brew.


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## yum beer (23/7/12)

Dont wanna be an arse, but seriously steve, keep buying beer from the bottle shop.


Make beer with your Coopers cans as you have been and forget about the bag...its just ******* up your head.

Read Nicks thread again from the start and try and get your head around the process and ingredients.

Right now you are confusing two simple yet very different methods.


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

Glen W said:


> Yep - way off track. The bag is just to hold the grains during the mash. No grain = no use for a bag



Cool so If I do the AG version of the DSGA I can use the bag but not the kit cans?




Jay Cee said:


> No, we don't boil grains. The grains are steeped at a set temperature, removed from the liquid, then the liquid is boiled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep I'm trying to read the links but I also try to read the latest links from the top right of the home page which is what I've been doong for the last year or so and the link about the fire extingishers has me puzzled.

Why the hell would you mount it upside down. I thought only the kegs have dip tubes?



rotten said:


> I'd like to help along the way and see how it works out for you and your mate. I AG only but maybe the bag could help with the hops that you add and filter the tin goop or malt ? I agree that $30 is a lot to spend on a brew.



$30 is heaps thats why I'm trying to get this right. Surely I'm doing something right.

So far does anything I've written make sense or am I completlly wrong.


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## bum (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> Surely I'm doing something right.


No.

Keep doing the kits the way you have been then look at the BIAB stuff when you're ready to go AG.

Understand that _ready_ is different to when you _want_ to.

Keep reading. Good luck with it.


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## glenwal (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> Cool so If I do the AG version of the DSGA I can use the bag but not the kit cans?


AG (all grain) is exactly that, all grain. There are no kits involved. When you say bag, what is it your refering to? If you mean the bag of sugar/brew enhancer/etc... then no - you don't use that either. if you mean the grain bag (basically a big sack you put grain in) then yes, you use a bag (or just a big piece of swiss voile) if doing BIAB.




gadjitsteve said:


> So far does anything I've written make sense.


Not really.


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

yum beer said:


> Dont wanna be an arse, but seriously steve, keep buying beer from the bottle shop.
> 
> 
> Make beer with your Coopers cans as you have been and forget about the bag...its just ******* up your head.
> ...



Yum beer, Ive read Nick's thread like 10 times, it makes sense sorta, but just because I don't completly get it doesn't mean you have to give me shit about it. It's really fuckin up my head but I don't need to be insulted on a public forum to know that.

If you could give me some real advice I'd rather than then listening to you winge about my shortcomings in beer making.

I buy beer from the bottle shop. One of my favorite beers is James Squires golden ale, shit I even liked that new Pale Lager from the Vic Bitter brewery, but it was nowhere as good as the golden ale. 

Ive made the golden ale before with the kits in the fremwnter and just added 2 litres of boiling water but from what I've read on here I need to boil it for an hour, add hops, use a bag and keep shit sterilized to make it better then what just chcking kit goop into the fermenter will do.

Thats all I'm after, just something better than what I'm doing now. AG will come but I need to know I can master K&K before going in head first into AG.


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

bum said:


> No.
> 
> Keep doing the kits the way you have been then look at the BIAB stuff when you're ready to go AG.
> 
> ...



OK cool Bum thanks for the positive words. I've read heaps and it still doesn't make complete sense. There's too much stuff to read and not enough how to threads like NickJD's.

I always thought that was the gospel to getting into AG but now I'm confused and then dickheads like yumbeer tell me to give up and just buy beer from the bottlo.

If I wanted to do that I would. I just want to make some good beer and thought the BIAB method was the cheapest easiest way to do it.




Glen W said:


> AG (all grain) is exactly that, all grain. There are no kits involved. When you say bag, what is it your refering to? If you mean the bag of sugar/brew enhancer/etc... then no - you don't use that either. if you mean the grain bag (basically a big sack you put grain in) then yes, you use a bag (or just a big piece of swiss voile) if doing BIAB.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really.



I was on about the BIAB bag, the swiss voile.

So if I dont put the kits into the bag into the water then I'm doing it wrong yeah.

It was only an idea, I thought it was the next step form kit and kilo to go BIAB?


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## rotten (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> I need to know I can master K&K before going in head first into AG.



Don't ya mean K&KIAB?


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## manticle (23/7/12)

Where do you live mate?

If you're struggling to comprehend the written word (some people don't learn well that way) then seeing someone do it and explain on the way can help cement the ideas.

Put your location in your profile and see if there's a brewer nearby who's happy for you to watch and asl questions or even a brewclub in your area.


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## kelbygreen (23/7/12)

Its been said plenty of times but I am guessing your local home brew shop does not sell grain why you are confused. Kits and extract (dry and liquid malt as well as dextrose or the brew enhancer bags) are just dissolved in hot water. Boiling them will not make a difference and boiling the can (kit) which is pre hopped is not a good thing to do. You can boil the none hopped extract (dry or liquid form) 

Now what your confusing is BIAB or AG (all grain) all grain we use no powdered extract. you seen whole barley or wheat kernels before? thats whats used it gets milled and then put into water to maintain a temp of 63-70deg depending on the style and fermentablities you want. Then the grain is removed and washed and discarded the liquid is then boiled to sanitise and also there is no bitterness or hop flavour. Then you add hops to bitter and flavour the now WORT! Now there is nothing add into this thats in a bag or tin, unless you need to add dextrose but that to the style you will brew and 99% the time you can control that with mash temps. 

You need to post your location as you seem like your totally confused at what the difference is. Some one on this forum will be happy to show you how to make AG beer and let you watch them do it. I think its the best way to learn as I myself done. After the day you can see and relate to whats been done and talked about.


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## stevemc32 (23/7/12)

Hey Steve, I'm only new to BIAB as well and it took me a few reads to get my head around the process but I've done couple now and it looks to be working. Here's were it seems you're having some trouble.

Think about your kit brew first. You take a can of goop, add it to some water, chuck in your kilo of enhancer and you've got 23 litres of sweet sugary stuff ready to add yeast and seal up. Take a snapshot right here and call this "Point A".

Now lets have a look at the Brew in a Bag method. You buy some cracked grains, some hops, a big pan and a bag. You fill your big pan with water, heat it up to about 70 degrees, throw in your bag and then fill the bag with your cracked grains. This then sits in the pan for 60 to 90 minutes while the hot water removes the sugar from the grains. Once the 60 - 90 minutes is up, you pull the bag and grains from the pot and you're left with a pan full of sweet sugary stuff, but you're only half way there. 

To add the bitterness and aroma that we love this sugar water is now brought to the boil and hops are added at various times throughout the boiling process which normally lasts for about an hour. Hops added at the start of the boil generally do the bittering, hops added later are for flavour and aroma. Once the boiling is finished you cover the pot and stick it on the concrete floor to cool it down. When it's cooled you throw it into your fermenter and you're ready to add the yeast. You've now reached the very same "Point A" (with hopefully some better quality sweet sugary stuff) that you had achieved with the kit brew.

The point here is that all the BIAB work has already been done on that kit can of goop that you used to make up the first brew. Someone else has done it for you, concentrated it and stuck it in a can, so there's no longer any need for a bag or grains or hops or boiling. Those things are only necessary if you don't want to use the can.

I hope this is helpful. For those in the know, it's supposed to be a very light, general overview from one beginner to another so please be gentle.

edit - typing at the same time as kelby, so looks like I've repeated a bunch of stuff.


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## petesbrew (23/7/12)

Do you realise the Bag is basically just an oversized teabag for holding grain? And if you pour the kit in it it'll just go straight through?
Read up in the articles about improving knk beers, steeping grains & using hops. Grab recipes, give em a go, and just keep on trying.
I did have a chuckle reading this, but hey, we all start somewhere.

Might I just add, I've got an AG beer on the go here that tastes like arse. I'm about ready to tip the rest of it. Yep, I've made better Knk than THAT one.
Lots of fun AGing, and there's lots of room for error too.


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## bum (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> There's too much stuff to read and not enough how to threads like NickJD's.


Nick's thread is particularly user-friendly and very, very light on with the technical stuff. If you're not quite grasping it yet just do a few more kit brews (then kit & bits brews) until you feel like you've learned as much as you can there then look into AG again and it will probably all click into place.



gadjitsteve said:


> I just want to make some good beer and thought the BIAB method was the cheapest easiest way to do it.


Yeah, that's probably a pretty good assessment but the word "easiest" is kinda tricky. It isn't really a sneaky back-door into AG brewing where you don't need to understand the fundamentals (as much as some people want to try to gloss over them). The gear and process can be simpler with BIAB (but even that depends who you ask) but you still need to know what you're doing and why (you can get away without understanding the why on a chemical level for as long as you like though, IMO, but it might stop your great beers from progressing to excellent beers - I'd settle for great beers any day of the week).



manticle said:


> seeing someone do it and explain on the way can help cement the ideas.


^this - or maybe someone who knows of any good youtube BIAB vids might like to put up some links.


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## thelockupgarage (23/7/12)

Now I'll put my hand up and say that I am in no way an expert in home brewing with only 2 months and about 10 brews under my belt but I might just jump in here.

I watched for a number of years my neighbour homebrew, and all he did was get a coopers kit and follow the instructions on the pack - kit, sugar, and water in the fermenter, and pitch the yeast. To be honest, I had no enthusiasm to home brew from that experience. What did get me into it was going to the Bitter and Twisted festival in Maitland last year. My brother and I sat with the Hunter United Brewers all day, and we watched Mark from Mark's Home Brew (Newcastle) do an all grain. At the time much of it went over my head but my brother threw himself into all grain brews.

As for myself, I made a tentative step into it, and this is where I might be able to help you Steve.
This is my process.

Cooper's Pale Ale kit
Brew Enhancer 2
150g Crystal Grain
12g hops
Coopers yeast

Now before anyone jumps at me and says that the coopers yeast is rubbish, my aim was simply to see what would be produced, and to get the experience.

In a 10 litre pot, bring about 5 litres of water to 70 degrees and turn off the heat.
Tie the grain up loosely in a bag made of swiss voile and add to the water. This will bring the temp back to the required 68 degrees.
Put the lid on the pot and cover with as many blankets and towels as possible and leave for 60 minutes.
Take the grain bag out and sit in a strainer over a bowl. When the grain bag is cool enough, give it a good squeeze and add the liquid in the bowl to the pot.
Bring the pot with the grain flavoured liquid to a 30 minutes boil.
Near the end of the boil, add the BE2 and stir through
Add the liquid from the pot to the fermenter, and add water to about 10 litres.
Pour in Coopers kit and stir through.
Fill to 20 litres, put fermenter lid on and airlock, and sit on the verandah until cool enough to pitch the yeast.
When cool enough, put hops in tea cup, add some boiling water and cover with glad wrap for 10 minutes.
Pour hops and water from tea cup into fermenter and stir like a bugger to get as much aeration into it.
Pitch yeast.

I have done this process a number of times using Citra, Amarillo, Fuggles, Nelson Sauvin, Cascade and Pride of Ringwood hops, just to see what the hops add. From my experience, this is a nice step towards all grain, and with a 40 litre urn turning up tomorrow, that time will be upon me very soon.

The addition of grain and hops adds very little to the cost of the beer. I simply bought a kilo of crystal grain ($5), and 50 grams of each of the hops (about $5 each). What it adds to the taste of the beer is what's important, and I have been pleased with the results. No where near all grain quality but miles ahead of just the kit and sugar. My neighbour, the kit and sugar neighbour came over to taste my first beer, took one taste, and told me he was giving up homebrewing and that he would just come over to my place and drink mine.


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

stevemc32 said:


> Hey Steve, I'm only new to BIAB as well and it took me a few reads to get my head around the process but I've done couple now and it looks to be working. Here's were it seems you're having some trouble.
> 
> Think about your kit brew first. You take a can of goop, add it to some water, chuck in your kilo of enhancer and you've got 23 litres of sweet sugary stuff ready to add yeast and seal up. Take a snapshot right here and call this "Point A".
> 
> ...



Cool so I'm in Adelaide and added that to my profile.

Anyone from Adelaide that can help will be good. I'm always keen to learn.

Thanks SteveMC32, you've cleared a fair bit up. The coopers cans are premade wort like what you would make in an AG BIAB brew?

I've dont the Coopers tour and the old fella doing the tour gave me some tips, said he had been brewing for over 20 years and mentioned using a bag, which was what he has done for a while now and it made some of his best beers.

I'm only a few pages onto the links you guys have posted. I think I've read the NickJD one so many times my heads gonn explode :lol: 

Thanks Steve


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## bignath (23/7/12)

stevemc32 said:


> Hey Steve, I'm only new to BIAB as well and it took me a few reads to get my head around the process but I've done couple now and it looks to be working. Here's were it seems you're having some trouble.
> 
> Think about your kit brew first. You take a can of goop, add it to some water, chuck in your kilo of enhancer and you've got 23 litres of sweet sugary stuff ready to add yeast and seal up. Take a snapshot right here and call this "Point A".
> 
> ...



Not that im some kind of posting nazi, but this post here is an excellent one.

Even more so as its come from someone who has just recently made the same or similar transition to what you are trying to do.

Explains it all pretty much.


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

thelockupgarage said:


> Now I'll put my hand up and say that I am in no way an expert in home brewing with only 2 months and about 10 brews under my belt but I might just jump in here.
> 
> I watched for a number of years my neighbour homebrew, and all he did was get a coopers kit and follow the instructions on the pack - kit, sugar, and water in the fermenter, and pitch the yeast. To be honest, I had no enthusiasm to home brew from that experience. What did get me into it was going to the Bitter and Twisted festival in Maitland last year. My brother and I sat with the Hunter United Brewers all day, and we watched Mark from Mark's Home Brew (Newcastle) do an all grain. At the time much of it went over my head but my brother threw himself into all grain brews.
> 
> ...



Wow cool lockupgarage, wish I had one of those  

Anyway. Ill try something like this and leave the bag for the pros. Do all the guys who make good AG beer use the BIAB methond or most use a 3V set up? It seems that 3V is best but I like my esky and don't want to cut it up.

Do I have too use an airlock, I keep reading about kittens or some shit from posts about a year or two back and I don't get it.

Why would someone harm a kitten, couldn't they just give it away or something. If that Butters guy killed a kitten then he needs help cos I love cats and as much as I find this beer thing confusing killing a kitten it just wrong.

Is that why he got banned?


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

Agreed Big Nath. Put alot of things right in my head. Although it hurts now, and my fingers.....Iv'e never typed so much in my life. Cheers Steve


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## bignath (23/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> Wow cool lockupgarage, wish I had on of those
> 
> Anyway. Ill try somthing like this and leave the bag for the pros. Do all the guys who make good AG beer use the BIAB methond or most use a 3V set up? It seems that 3V is best but I like my esky and don't want to cut it up.
> 
> ...



Two things.....

1. Dont worry about the kitten.
Its a joke that was thrown around a long time ago, and its getting really tired. I didnt think it was funny the first time, but others keep laughing at it. No kitten was harmed.

2. Re: best method??
Impossible to say. Depends on your criteria as to how you define the parameters for 'best'.

Im a 3v brewer who is starting to lean towards biab. Only due to time constraints, and ease of setup and pack down.

Beers are comparable, but a 3v rig sure looks pretty sexy. Still, i value my spare time, and no one really notices my brewery anyway, so now im doing the biab thing........with a little, little bit of bling....


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## manticle (23/7/12)

Forget the kitten thing (look up internet meme then do your best to forget they exist as there's no point to them).

Hope your posts are genuine.

If they are, learn about fermentation, then look at extract and steeping grains, then look at mashing. In the mean time read about beer - even if you don't get it first time, re-read, try something out you read and watch someone else do it. It all adds up.


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## rotten (23/7/12)

Kittens get stuck in my airlock all the time, it'a ******* problem I tell ya, a bit like bluewaffle. Butters saw the light and tried to enlighten us all but got banned in the process. Beer somebody was nearly killed by such a kitten in his early brewing days IIRC.

Good Luck


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## [email protected] (23/7/12)

manticle said:


> Hope your posts are genuine.



Nope


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## thelockupgarage (23/7/12)

Hey Steve, you need to look at it this way... where are the flavours, sugars and bitterness coming from?

With my method, the flavours are from the kit and hops, and some from the grain, the bitterness is from the kit, and the sugar is from the BE2. With BIAB/All Grain, the flavours and sugars come from the grains and hops (added late in the boil), and the bitterness from the hops (added early in the boil).

Look at my small swiss voile bag of grain as a small version of the grain bag you would use for BIAB. I used only 150g, but with an all grain BIAB it can be 5 kilos of a mixture of grains. Apart from this, and the size of the pot, the simplest BIAB method is much like my current method.

Simple BIAB (exact details from a recipe)

In a dirty big pot, put heaps of water
Bring the water to required temp for the grain. Turn off heat
Put grain bag in and mix, and cover with blankets for required time
Remove grain and drain as much liquid from it back into the pot
Bring pot to boil
Add bittering hops at say 60 minutes before the end of the boil, bittering/flavour hops at 30 minutes, flavour hops at 20 - 0 minutes, aroma hops at 0 and directly to the fermenter.
Pour liquid into fermentor or cube/container and allow to cool.
Pitch yeast when cooled.

Now this is a very simplistic view of BIAB, but as you can see, it is not much different to my method except for the size of the pot and boil, and the amount of grain. There is no need for BE2 as all the sugars come from the grain, and you are now playing around with hops to get your bitterness and extra flavours and aromas into the brew.


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## gadjitsteve (23/7/12)

Big Nath said:


> Two things.....
> 
> 1. Dont worry about the kitten.
> Its a joke that was thrown around a long time ago, and its getting really tired. I didnt think it was funny the first time, but others keep laughing at it. No kitten was harmed.
> ...



Cool, so sounds like alot of people are taking on this BIAB thing. I've been reading stuff on here for over a year now and BIAB seems to be best for me anyway.



manticle said:


> Forget the kitten thing (look up internet meme then do your best to forget they exist as there's no point to them).
> 
> Hope your posts are genuine.
> 
> If they are, learn about fermentation, then look at extract and steeping grains, then look at mashing. In the mean time read about beer - even if you don't get it first time, re-read, try something out you read and watch someone else do it. It all adds up.



Cool, memes are ok. People email them to me all the time but onlt some get forwarded. As for my posts, very genuine. I've also read bits of the 'how to brew' book and think its a bit too much for me just yet.



rotten said:


> Kittens get stuck in my airlock all the time, it'a ******* problem I tell ya, a bit like bluewaffle. Butters saw the light and tried to enlighten us all but got banned in the process. Beer somebody was nearly killed by such a kitten in his early brewing days IIRC.
> 
> Good Luck




Haha, yeah from what I've read kittens get mentioned alot. I don't even use and airlock as I find the glad wrap method much easier and I can see the beer ferment.

As for bluewaffle thats a meme I'd rather forget. Someone sent that link to me in an email a few years back and its haunted me ever since.

Thanks for all your help tonight guys. Ill give the kit in a bag a miss and try the method lockupgarage posted.


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## manticle (24/7/12)

Mike Klitorus (username on here) is local to you I think and knows about airlocks and such. Shoot him a PM - beneath the gruff exterior is a very helpful and genuine bloke who can help you out.


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## Jay Cee (24/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> Do I have too use an airlock, I keep reading about kittens or some shit from posts about a year or two back and I don't get it.
> 
> Why would someone harm a kitten, couldn't they just give it away or something. If that Butters guy killed a kitten then he needs help cos I love cats and as much as I find this beer thing confusing killing a kitten it just wrong.
> 
> Is that why he got banned?



This guy has been trolling the board with this whole thread from the start. Kits in a bag, now kitten references.  

Way to waste everyone's time, mate.


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## pk.sax (24/7/12)

Yasmani has much pishab yet?


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## glenwal (24/7/12)

Jay Cee said:


> Kits in a bag, now kitten references.


And...

- Boiling Grain

- Using Old Tins

- Spending $30 on a single batch



yet the thread remained pretty much on topic for 3 pages.


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## kymba (24/7/12)

similar troll to that dipstick last week with the red font?


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## craigo (24/7/12)

practicalfool said:


> Yasmani has much pishab yet?




x2 i think so


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## Mike L'Itorus (24/7/12)

practicalfool said:


> Yasmani has much pishab yet?



? :unsure: ?

In the immortal words of Pauline, 'Please explain?'...

Honestly. I don't get the reference.


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## Cocko (24/7/12)

Mike L said:


> Greatest thread of all time


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## Mike L'Itorus (24/7/12)

Cocko said:


> Greatest thread of all time



Holy shit! What did I just read??? FFS!?!



> ach i does not want to be making some sisterfuking indian brewings, yaar. my tastes is for usa style.




I don't know if I want to laugh or cry. Mary, mother of God, Whore of Satan!...

:blink: :lol: 

got a bit stale by the 3rd page...a bit like Nick, really.


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## manticle (24/7/12)

manticle said:


> Mike Klitorus



Mike L'itorus with humblest of apologies to him for stuffing it up.


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## gadjitsteve (24/7/12)

> This guy has been trolling the board with this whole thread from the start. Kits in a bag, now kitten references.
> 
> Way to waste everyone's time, mate.
> 
> ...



If I'm wasting people time because I thought that by using a bag I'd somehow make these leftover kits of mine taste better then why did one guy message me and guys like Steve32 and lockupgarage help me out?

Do I have to do something more to get some clear help?
They put in in a logical order and explained the differences to me.

I've been reading this forum for over a year now and have read everything from Kittens, to that Yasami thing which is obvious BS, Kegging, about nasa/spiral burners and how much heat they put out. Good links to deals on ebay etc, some that I've used as well.

It was the DMS boiling thread that had me thinking that boiling my kits would make a better beer.

I pretty much boil them anyway, as I put the kit and the LDM into the fermenter and then add boiling water and mix it around. I just don't boil it for an hour like most of you guys do.

Thats what I thought the key was, was to boil it for a full hour, maybe ill add some hops if it doesn't make it over bitter with the hops that are already in the kits.

Also I've since read over the Nick thread and a few others and now realise I stuffed up about boiling grains to do an AG beer. Obvoiusly its steep at 65-70 degrees then boil it to remove DMS while adding hops to add flavour.

So if my coopers kits have all that in the can already then why do people add extra grains and hops etc. Wouldn't that stuff the beer making it to sugary from the extra gain or to bitter from the extra hops?

As for spending $30 on making a beer thats a bit of money for me. Me and the mrs are about to have kids and I can't go out spending heaps on 3V breweries like the one listed in Adelaide in the marketplace section.

I can buy beer for $30 on sale, it wont be very good but the mrs wont bite my head off over it. I need to make beer thats is good if not better than what I'm making now and any trick I can use that I've picked up from this place I'll give it a go.

When I finally ask a question or two on here I get told I'm a troll and that I havent got it right in my head yet.

I'm feeling like I need to stop, read through all this again and try again from scratch.

It's that or I don't ask questions, don't get any help and don't make better beer.

I'm quite happy with the beer I've been making just that I've read about how good some of the beers on here are and want to do this for myself, just without spending $1500 on a brewery I don't even know how to use.

Thanks Steve


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## Jay Cee (24/7/12)

Sure "steve". Go meet with mike l'torus on brewday if you are genuine.

you could talk about botulism. And airlocks.


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## gadjitsteve (24/7/12)

Jay Cee said:


> Sure "steve". Go meet with mike l'torus on brewday if you are genuine.
> 
> you could talk about botulism. And airlocks.




I don't know what botulism is but I did message him. Thanks for caring......

I'm outa here, boss its about to kill me.


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## loikar (24/7/12)

gadjitsteve said:


> Do I have to do something more to get some clear help?



Hi Steve,

Yes, click on the link in my Sig and sign up at BrewAdelaide.
Unfortunately this forum, while containing some very good information and people, is not conducive for new brewers seeking genuine help if they cant pick up and run with the ball as quickly as others. Also the help is quite often misleading and a lot of the people who offer help are not much further into their brewing hobby than you.
I know what you're getting at and understanding why you do something is just as important as understanding how you do it.
I think that might be why you're not getting the answers you're seeking.

Anyway, if you sign up you can find someone local to help you understand why and what it is you have to do.

HTH

BF


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## manticle (24/7/12)

Gasdjitsteve is already on brew adelaide offering his biab rig and keggle for use by noobs. Small chance he's having a lend.

http://brewadelaide.com/forum/index.php?PH...4;topicseen#new


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## loikar (24/7/12)

manticle said:


> Gasdjitsteve is already on brew adelaide offering his biab rig and keggle for use by noobs. Small chance he's having a lend.



I wasn't aware he was a member already, i'm not a massively active member on there though.
Seems like a nice bloke to offer that up, if he's only lending it though it's probably not his to offer. could be bad.

Not sure if any of it'll improve his kits though.


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## queenslandah (24/7/12)

Yey :wub: i have broken into the secret world of trolls and coolkids 

radelaide rocks 
secretly spy camera action from brew adelaide secret website h34r: 
BA Shoutbox
gadjitsteve: I've got everything I need from that place now anyway, hence my lack of interest to post anything. Is it too late to organise trolling AHB as a full pledged sport at the olympics?
Today at 05:59:47 PM
ben_sa: haha Steve. good work mate. was fun while it lasted. I doubt youll miss anything if they do ban you.
Today at 05:33:36 PM
DrSmurto: Christ on a bike my typing is woeful today
Today at 04:30:50 PM
DrSmurto: Nige
Today at 04:30:34 PM
DrSmurto: 2 new members today. Hope Nig has some sort of net in place, swiss voile perhaps, to stop the AHB riff raff getting in.
Today at 04:30:28 PM
DrSmurto: Who am I kidding? RAKJ struggles to graps the concept of shoelaces.
Today at 04:25:54 PM
DrSmurto: *crowd*
Today at 04:22:47 PM
DrSmurto: Hmmmm, given the fact the AHB crwod can see this forum any chance Rear Admiral Knob Jockey is awake to who this refers to?
Today at 04:22:20 PM
BeerFingers: off to pick up my glasses 
Today at 04:08:59 PM
BeerFingers: 
Today at 04:07:00 PM
gadjitsteve: So do I get banned now? [link]
Today at 04:00:16 PM
BeerFingers: Hope this Helps \ Happy to Help
Today at 03:59:03 PM
gadjitsteve: sorry HTH??
Today at 03:57:37 PM
gadjitsteve: Hey BF is HFH - ha fuckin ha?
Today at 03:57:15 PM
gadjitsteve: electric slow cooker....gold
Today at 03:46:00 PM
Malted: Nope found it, no it is not me.
Today at 03:33:02 PM
Malted: I hve no idea of even where to find Fritz
Today at 03:30:23 PM
raven19: Fritz n sauce entertainment surely immenent. Bait taken twice already, you cheeky trolls!
Today at 03:13:12 PM
Malted: What am I supposed to have done now?
Today at 03:08:28 PM
DrSmurto: No-one has PMed me for days 
Today at 02:58:44 PM


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## pk.sax (24/7/12)

I would think that some people should stick to a can and associated can opener. If Nick's simple guide doesn't make enough sense to realise that it is made by 'mashing' GRAIN, then what will!!!

Anyway, what is the op trying to hold in the bag of their's? He got asked that a few times.

Another thing, after he was called out he has come back and corrected himself on a few things, completely bipolar. He seemed to have zero understanding of those before. I don't buy it.

Either the OP is lazy, really really slow or taking the piss. Either way, he is wasting everyone's time, possibly dangerous to himself or rather annoying.

Not understanding something is OK but not understanding when people try to explain is worse. And he's been lurking for a year, right?? There are some insanely helpful members on here but if the OP can't follow simple English instructions and structured guides MADE for beginners then perhaps expecting them to mash grain is like giving a child a blowtorch.

Anyway, who is buying this BS?


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## manticle (24/7/12)

practicalfool said:


> or taking the piss.



Already established.


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## pk.sax (24/7/12)

Took too long to type...


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## KingKong (24/7/12)

TFF. 

:lol: Worth tonights effort logging on, just to read this.


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