# Style Of The Week 11/10/06 - Saison



## Stuster

So with the weather heating up, it's time to think of some beers that can be made in the heat. One of these is the Saison, BJCP style 16C. Both the White Labs and Wyeast yeasts for this style can be (are best?) fermented in the mid-twenties (or higher?).

There have been some threads about this style, Saison recipe thoughts, and Saison you will never forget.
Also some articles on saison.
All about beer article.
Ale street news article.


So what are your experiences with this style? Grains? Hops? Which yeast to use? Any spices/peels to add? What temperature did you do your fermentation at? Can this style be done by partial mashers? Kit based brewers? Any commercial saisons available here?

Tell us all you know about this style. :chug: 

Information on the style from 


> 16C. Saison
> 
> Aroma: High fruitiness with low to moderate hop aroma and moderate to no herb, spice and alcohol aroma. Fruity esters dominate the aroma and are often reminiscent of citrus fruits such as oranges or lemons. A low to medium spicy or floral hop aroma is usually present. A moderate spice aroma (from actual spice additions and/or yeast-derived phenols) complements the other aromatics. When phenolics are present they tend to be peppery rather than clove-like. A low to moderate sourness or acidity may be present, but should not overwhelm other characteristics. Spice, hop and sour aromatics typically increase with the strength of the beer. Alcohols are soft, spicy and low in intensity, and should not be hot or solventy. The malt character is light. No diacetyl.
> 
> Appearance: Often a distinctive pale orange but may be golden or amber in color. There is no correlation between strength and color. Long-lasting, dense, rocky white head resulting in characteristic "Belgian lace" on the glass as it fades. Clarity is poor to good though haze is not unexpected in this type of unfiltered farmhouse beer. Effervescent.
> 
> Flavor: Combination of fruity and spicy flavors supported by a soft malt character, a low to moderate alcohol presence and tart sourness. The fruitiness is frequently citrusy (orange- or lemon-like). The addition of one of more spices serve to add complexity. Low peppery yeast-derived phenols may be present instead of or in addition to spice additions. Hop flavor is low to moderate, and is generally spicy in character. Hop bitterness may be moderate to high, but should not overwhelm fruity esters, spices, and malt. Malt character is light but provides a sufficient background for the other flavors. A low to moderate tart sourness may be present, but should not overwhelm other flavors. Spices, hop bitterness and flavor, and sourness commonly increase with the strength of the beer while sweetness decreases. No hot alcohol or solventy character. Substantial carbonation and bitterness give a dry finish with a long, bitter, sometimes spicy aftertaste. No diacetyl.
> 
> Mouthfeel: Light to medium body. Alcohol level can be medium to medium-high, though the warming character is low to medium. No hot alcohol or solventy character. Very high carbonation with an effervescent quality. There is enough prickly acidity on the tongue to balance the dry finish. A low to moderate tart character may be present but should be refreshing and not to the point of puckering.
> 
> Overall Impression: A medium to strong ale with a distinctive yellow-orange color, highly carbonated, well hopped, fruity and dry with a quenching acidity.
> 
> History: A seasonal summer style produced in Wallonia, the French-speaking part of Belgium. Originally brewed at the end of the cool season to last through the warmer months before refrigeration was common. It had to be sturdy enough to last for months but not too strong to be quenching and refreshing in the summer. It is now brewed year-round in tiny, artisanal breweries whose buildings reflect their origins as farmhouses.
> 
> Comments: Varying strength examples exist (table beers of about 5% strength, typical export beers of about 6.5%, and stronger versions of 8%+). Sweetness decreases and spice, hop and sour character increases with strength. Herb and spice additions often reflect the indigenous varieties available at the brewery. High carbonation helps bring out the many flavors and to increase the perception of a dry finish. All of these beers share somewhat higher levels of acidity than other Belgian styles while the optional sour flavor is often a variable house character of a particular brewery.
> 
> Ingredients: Pilsner malt dominates the grist though a portion of Vienna and/or Munich malt contributes color and complexity. Adjuncts such as candi sugar and honey can also serve to add complexity and thin the body. Hop bitterness and flavor may be more noticeable than in many other Belgian styles. A saison is sometimes dry-hopped. Noble hops, Styrian or East Kent Goldings are commonly used. A wide variety of herbs and spices are generally used to add complexity and uniqueness in the stronger versions. Varying degrees of acidity and/or sourness can be created by the use of gypsum, acidulated malt, a sour mash or Lactobacillus. Hard water, common to most of Wallonia, can accentuate the bitterness and dry finish.
> Vital Statistics:
> OG FG IBUs SRM ABV
> 1.048 - 1.080 1.010 - 1.016 25 - 45 5 - 12 5 - 8.5%
> 
> Commercial Examples: Saison Dupont, Foret and Moinette Blonde; Fantome Saison(s); Saison de Pipaix and La Folie; Saison Silly; Saison Regal; Saison Voisin; Lefebvre Saison 1900; Ellezelloise Saison 2000; Brooklyn Saison; Southampton Saison; New Belgium Saison; Pizza Port-Carlsbad Saison


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## warrenlw63

Nice choice Stuster.  

I can only speak from the experience of one I've made myself. Turned out really nice. :beerbang: 

First and foremost anbody who really wants to dabble with this style and it's well worth it should grab a copy of "Farmhouse Ales". Well worth the read.

Commercial examples can be had here if you look hard enough. Saison Dupont is available in Australia and is a the supposed benchmark for the style. Really great drop. 

I've also tried one of Brent's (Borret's) interpretation of the style and it was an absolute gem.  Lots of complexity and a good dry finish. It just heightened my belief that the KISS theory works well on the grainbill.

I'll post me recipe but confess that the Cara Amber just clashed too much with the bone dry attenuation of the yeast. Next time I make this I'd just stick with 100% Pilsner malt and maybe a bit of wheat.

As for fermentation? I'd suggest pitching at normal ale temps (around 18 degrees) and letting the fermentation creep up to around 30 degrees (or more). Trust me this yeast can handle it. In fact it goes to sleep if you don't keep it at a minimum of 25 degrees. Be patient and let it finish the job. My primary took around a month.

Think I might do another this summer. Great beer to make (and consume) in hot weather.

Saison du Auld Lang Sine

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

16-C Belgian & French Ale, Saison

Min OG: 1.048 Max OG: 1.080
Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 45
Min Clr: 12 Max Clr: 31 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 40.00 Wort Size (L): 40.00
Total Grain (kg): 9.10
Anticipated OG: 1.056 Plato: 13.84
Anticipated EBC: 10.8
Anticipated IBU: 29.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 79 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
22.0 2.00 kg. Bourghul Australia 1.034 4
4.4 0.40 kg. Cane Sugar Generic 1.046 0
54.9 5.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
16.5 1.50 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 8
2.2 0.20 kg. Weyermann Caraamber Germany 1.037 93

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
60.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 21.5 60 min.
20.00 g. Saaz Pellet 3.30 5.3 60 min.
15.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 1.4 15 min.
20.00 g. Saaz Pellet 3.30 0.9 5 min.
5.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 0.3 5 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 gm Corriander Seed Spice 5 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison



Warren -


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## Kai

I brewed one of these last summer because I couldn't keep any other ferment cool enough at the time. Turned out to be a very nice beer and will get another outing or two soon now that the weather is warming up again. The Wyeast saison (3274) strain went like buggery for the first week then took three weeks in the mid-high 20's to finish the last fraction of fermentation. It also threw up plenty of citrus, pepper and other yeast-derived flavours, I think you can easily rely on the yeast for those unique qualities rather than adding other flavourings.


Mine was quite light for the style but still just within guidelines in my opinion. I also think it works excellently brewed like this. Recipe is here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=208


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## bigfridge

Kai said:


> The Wyeast saison (3274) strain went like buggery for the first week then took three weeks in the mid-high 20's to finish the last fraction of fermentation. It also threw up plenty of citrus, pepper and other yeast-derived flavours, I think you can easily rely on the yeast for those unique qualities rather than adding other flavourings.



The Wyeast strain is originally from Dupont and this is its typical behaviour. 3-4 weeks at higher temps is needed to finish the job.

Dave


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## Kai

Yep, I have read that is typical. Also as warren says keeping it hot at the end seems to do it well.


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## Doc

One of my favourite styles, that I've brewed at least 10 times to come up with a recipe that I'm happy with. And of course this is the high end of the range 7%+
Will dig up the recipe tomorrow and post, because not only have I brewed it twice since perfecting it, but another Hills Brewers Guild member brewed it and it came out identical. Beautiful.

Doc


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## Doc

Actually tomorrow is going to be another shit day at the office, so I've dug up the recipe.

40 Litres
OG 1.062 FG 1.010 7.1%

6.66kg Weyerman Pils
1.33kg JW Light Munich
0.88kg JW Wheat

50 gr Stirling Pellets 6.8% @ 60 mins
14 gr Dried Orange Peel Pellets (Asian food store) @15 mins
20 gr Crushed Corriander Seeds @ 15 mins
1.5 gr Grains of Paridise @ 15 mins (Herbies Spices in Sydney)

67 Deg Mash
WLP 565 Saison Yeast.

4 weeks to ferment.

Doc


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## Stuster

Nice simple recipe Doc. And an easy drinking 7.1%. :lol: 

Are the grains of paradise noticeable in the end result? (after looking at herbie's price for it I hope not.)


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## RobW

What are Stirling pellets Doc?


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## Stuster

Sterling are a new variety along the lines of Saaz, Rob. Have a look here for more info on them and lots of other hops too.


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## warrenlw63

I blame you for starting this thread Stuster  ... I've contacted Grain and Grape for another Smack Pack of Wyeast 3724 damn you. :lol: 

Given the premature heatwave that's going to hit Melbourne might be time for another Saison methinks.  

Warren -


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## Stuster

I must contact them for my commission. :lol: 

Ross, fancy sponsoring a thread on IIPAs?


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## Doc

Bit hard to nail down how much spicyness the GoP give to the beer when you are using the Saison yeast and Sterling pellets as well.
Especially when only using 1.5 grams. Although I did bite into one grain once and oh it is spicy.

Doc


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## Malnourished

Has anyone used either Wyeast 3275 Biere de Garde (from Fantme) or Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse Ale (from Blaugies)?

I've got a smack pack of 3725 in the fridge, but never got the chance to try 3726 before it was discontinued. Spewing. From the sounds they might be a bit quicker to act than 3724.


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## Chris

How do you guys recon T-58 would go in a saison?


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## len

I've never tried this style, but the high fermentation temperatures are looking attractive at the moment. Sounds like it's hard to find though. I've just looked through the Belgian Beer Cafe's list and there aren't any there.

Is it anything like a belgian witbier?


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## neonmeate

len said:


> I've never tried this style, but the high fermentation temperatures are looking attractive at the moment. Sounds like it's hard to find though. I've just looked through the Belgian Beer Cafe's list and there aren't any there.
> 
> Is it anything like a belgian witbier?



the belgian beer cafe doesn't have a lot of the really rustic belgian stuff - that's why it's fun to brew your own. you can buy saison dupont (the classic) down in melbourne and in perth but in sydney the only way to taste something similar is to buy some WLP565.

it's kind of witbierlike in the yeast and spice dept, but hoppier and "earthier". less wheaty too, usually a pale malt/pils malt base. sometimes features bizarre spices too (like saison de pipaix, which has lichen). and they are tasty.
.


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## Malnourished

neonmeate said:


> you can buy saison dupont (the classic) down in melbourne and in perth but in sydney the only way to taste something similar is to buy some WLP565.


You can get it through MegaBeer, but you have to buy a case.

If you just want a single bottle you can order from Cloud Wine in Melbourne.

But either way you'll have to pay for shipping.


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## warrenlw63

Keep posted with Grain and Grape. They're selling all the major imported beers now. 

They've got Saisons Dupont and Regal. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they sell it online.  

Warren -


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## Weizguy

Dare I say it?

Bulk buy for Sydney-side Saison fanciers, as soon as G&G start selling online?

Just a thought.

Seth


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## bindi

Saison, oh yes please, I can't wait for mine to be on tap [and bottled], but wait I must  They are tasting fantastic from the samples  . 
You will see them in my signature below.


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## Duff

Les the Weizguy said:


> Dare I say it?
> 
> Bulk buy for Sydney-side Saison fanciers, as soon as G&G start selling online?
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> Seth



I made Doc's receipe as per page 1 and it is a belter. The only difference was I used NZ B Saaz for the peppery, spicy style I find they impart.

However, after never trying a commercial type, I'll go some with you Seth  

Cheers.


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## warrenlw63

bindi said:


> Saison, oh yes please, I can't wait for mine to be on tap [and bottled], but wait I must  They are tasting fantastic from the samples  .
> You will see them in my signature below.



You old slut slayer you.  

Warren -


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## Weizguy

OK, so b4 I stray 2 far off-topic here: Can I get an opinion from someone in Melbourne or Adelaide, perhaps, as to the taste and or freshness of the imported Saisons?

Then, and only then, can Duff and I make a decision to purchase some _en bulk_.

Beerz
and thanks in advance for some input.
U can contact me offline if U wish, pm or email, if you don't wish to go further Off-topic.

Seth  

BTW, Warren...put it awaaaay.


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## neonmeate

i would love to go in for 2 or 3 bottles. why not split 12 750ml bottles from megabeer. - 108$ plus postage.


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## warrenlw63

Les the Weizguy said:


> OK, so b4 I stray 2 far off-topic here: Can I get an opinion from someone in Melbourne or Adelaide, perhaps, as to the taste and or freshness of the imported Saisons?
> 
> BTW, Warren...put it awaaaay.



Weizguy Les AKA Seth.

I've had the Dupont twice thus far and found it to be a fantastic drop. Freshness or lack thereof seemed to be of little consequence and did not detract in the least. More pale (looks like a pils) than I expected. All the great complex notes that you would expect. Nice mingling hop character (maybe earthy Goldings), bit of tropical fruit, some bubblegum and a bit of the so-called sea air in the glass (could smell the beer all day). My only complaint is it's too damn easy to drink for it's strength and you'd be tempted to down two bottles in one sitting and feel like shite the next day. :lol: 

Next;

Saison Regal pours an amber colour, has a form of added "caramel" flavour to a sourish but what I'd called controlled or contrived ale. It feels as if all the flavours aren't fermentation based as opposed to perhaps the brewer adding everything post fermentation to taste. Also think it's got an overly heavy hit of corriander, which I prefer in total moderation. Other than that quite tasty and easy to drink. Just not the contemplative classic that is Dupont.  

BTW I've got my own Saison in it's second week of primary fermentation ATM. I'm planning to deliberately "funk" the second keg via the addition of a starter made from the dregs of a bottle of Orval. The whole thing could go pear shaped on me but nothing ventured, nothing gained I say. :beerbang: 

Put "what" away Les? :blink: 

Warren -


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## Asher

here's a pic I took at a cafe in Brussels recently....


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## buddingbrewmaster

reading all your great reviews on the saison brews has made me keen to give it a crack too. the problem is i am an extract brewer and have only seen all grain recipes. looking at the grains used though, i think it would be quite possible to make a decent extract saison. this is what i have come up with and would love some feedback. (sorry i don't have one of those brewing programs you guys have).

30 litre batch
aiming for an original gravity of about 1060
IBU of about 30

Extracts:
4 kilos of dry LME
0.5 kg of dextrose
0.2 kg of brown sugar

Grain:
350 grams Light Crystal Malt
200 grams Aromatic

Hops:
50 grams of hallertau (4.2 alpha) for 60 mins (would have used Styrian Goldings but have none left)
20 grams Saaz (3.4 alpha) for 60 mins
25 grams Saaz (3.4 alpha) for 5 minutes

Extras:
25 grams of crushed coriander seed for 5 minutes

Yeast:
WYeast 3724

any feedback would be greatly appreciated. a long and warm primary fermentation seems to mentioned frequently, but i didn't find any recomendations for secondary fermentation. i am also curious on the size of the yeast starter should be for pitching? is 600 mls enough?

cheers


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## buddingbrewmaster

i'm just writing this in the hope someone can give me a bit of feedback on the above recipe. i might also throw in some crushed cardamon pods too. some are kicking around the house.

cheers


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## warrenlw63

BBM

Recipe looks good. That said I'd lose the Brown sugar and most of the Crystal Malt. Aromatic malt you can't get here (same amount of Munich malt would be similar). Wouldn't go much more than around 150g of medium crystal malt in your average batch. You could even get by without any spec malts at all. My latest batch is all Pils and Pale malt with a small amount of wheat. Last year's had a small amount of spec. malts (Vienna and Cara amber) and to tell you the truth I prefer this year's version already. I racked it last week.

600ml starter will be fine. Ferment at 25 degrees for your first couple of days and then try and ramp the temp up to around 30 degrees to finish. Don't expect the brew to clear for around 3 weeks. Yeast can be a bit of the slow side.  

As for a secondary? Yes I'd do it. You'll have to get it off the primary yeast and give it a bit of time to clear.

Warren -


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## buddingbrewmaster

thanks for your advice warren,

will probably not worry about specialty grain if not really neccessary then. one less pot to clean and a lot less messing around  

cheers


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## Stuster

OT a bit, warren, I think that Melanoidin can be subbed for Aromatic (and/or Honey malt). At least according to wes in this old thread.

Not suggesting you need to use it, bbm. There's nothing wrong with simplicity. Works for me.


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## warrenlw63

No worries Stuster. Was probably trying to define the differences between the two batches I've done so far. Much prefer the barebones version which is just Ale, Pils & Wheat malt. Seems to allow the character of the yeast to really shine through and enhance the dry finish.

Last year's version had small amounts of spec. malts to deepen the colour and it seemed to make the beer a little demanding to drink. Dry malt flavour seemed to enhance the spec malts in a detrimental sort of way. :blink: 

This year's vintage tasting superb straight from the primary fermenter. Very much like liquid fruit salad. :lol: 

One keg has been given a doseage of Orval dregs to add a bit of Brett character. Should be interesting (I hope. )  

Warren -


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## KoNG

I'm planning to do a saison early in the new year, so i think i'll get my hands on farmhouse ales like everyone suggests. Dymocks was out when i checked today, they had brew like a monk (which i have) and wild brews, but farmhouse was gone.
i'll search wider.


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## warrenlw63

Stuster said:


> Wet horse is for Orval or anything with brettanomyces I think. Any updates on your seasonal sweaty equine beer, warren?



Stuster I tried some from the conditioning keg the other day. 7 Weeks old and starting to taste quite interesting. Non-brett keg is really good but the Orvaled one is tasting something special. Feint sourness and some light leathery type of notes.  

Hoping to source enough champagne bottles to bottle the whole thing in the next few weeks. I'm about 8-10 empties shy ATM.

Warren -


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## Stuster

Interesting that you are keeping the non-brett one conditioning for that long. Is that just to provide a control to the brett one, do you find they get better with age, or is just the lack of bottles?

I think I'm with Kai on drinking rather on the young side. My saison has reached the grand old age of 6 days so of course I had a glass last night :lol: and it was good. Carbonation will probably improve a touch but it was still fine, with a reasonable head. Lots of fruity aromas and flavour, good citrus from the EKG and Saaz, and a long, dry aftertaste. I should be able to resist opening another one today, but what about tomorrow?


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## warrenlw63

Oh sorry Stuster. May have misunderstood me. Non brett keg is almost a memory. Probably only a pint or two left before she kicks.  Has been a really nice batch and romped on last year's effort. I started consuming it when it was around 2 weeks in the keg. I must confess it got a lot better towards the end though.

Only bottling the Orvaled version. Just gotta keep my eye out for champagne bottles. They sure don't grow on trees.  

Warren -


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## Stuster

Good to hear it. Then my 5 days is not as bad as it could have been.

Must resist early drinking. Must resist early drinking. Must resist early drinking. Must resist early drinking. Must resist early drinking. Must resist early drinking. Must resist early drinking. Must resist early drinking.....

The brett experiment sounds good. Are you planning on infecting any other beers?


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## warrenlw63

Stuster said:


> The brett experiment sounds good. Are you planning on infecting any other beers?



More than likely. Got a packet of Rosalare yeast and hopefully a Flanders Red is going to happen up the track. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## bindi

warrenlw63 said:


> You old slut slayer you.
> 
> Warren -




Sad to say Warren the Saison Slut Slayer has gone  and nice it was.
The Saison PTSD Cure is tasting nice with earthy flavours and a hint of lemon  it's a nice change.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB

Just finished reading Farmhouse Ales last night and I'm inspired and determined to make use of the "February sun in Adelaide" (apologies to all Dragon fans  ).
Has anyone attempted the Classic Saison recipe which is 90% Pils and 10% Wheat? This is certainly the way I am leaning at this stage. I have the required hops and my old mate Warren will be supplying me with some yeast :beerbang: KISS seems like an apt acronym here.

C&B
TDA


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## warrenlw63

Yoicks! TDA... You just reminded me. :blink: 

{Warren's footsteps off to the PO} :lol: 

Oh! I can recommend this recipe highly. Keep this thread alive guys! What a style!  

Warren -


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## Stuster

Well, I didn't got that simple, but I've had two cracks with mainly base malt and wheat grain bills, both of which are drinking pretty fast. :chug: 

The first one was 5.5kg JW Export Pilsner, 1kg W'mann Vienna, 1kg JW Wheat. The second one was 3kg JW Trad ale, 2kg W'mann Vienna, 2kg JW Wheat, 100g W'mann acidulated, 100g JW Crystal wheat. I'm sure if you have some nice pilsner malt, then that 90/10 mix will be good.

The first one is getting some good reviews. My non-beer-drinking brother-in-law bizarrely loved it. He hardly drinks but raved about this one, especially it's clean taste. :unsure: 

I found the Saison yeast a dream to work with. No stalling, no need for temperature control, clean and 92% attenuation with both batches.


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## Weizguy

I'm brewing one in the next few days for a friend's wedding reception.

Will be based on the BYO Dec 2006 recipe at OG 1.064 and 6.8 % alc. Have substituted Aussie malts for the Belgian ones in the mag. Will be using Wyeast Saison yeast and some interesting hops for bitterness and aroma/flavr.

Will post the recipe once I find it again.

Seth


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## bindi

Saison :wub: have not brewed a bad one yet.

Edit after 4 Saisons and 1 Biere de Garde, nice.


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## Stuster

Les the Weizguy said:


> I'm brewing one in the next few days for a friend's wedding reception.
> 
> Will be based on the BYO Dec 2006 recipe at OG 1.064 and 6.8 % alc. Have substituted Aussie malts for the Belgian ones in the mag. Will be using Wyeast Saison yeast and some interesting hops for bitterness and aroma/flavr.
> 
> Will post the recipe once I find it again.
> 
> Seth



I think you might end up with more than 6.8% from a 1064 wort using the Saison yeast.  

Love to see the recipe if you can get your hands on it.


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## bindi

To all you Saison lovers White Labs have a new Saison yeast :super: 
From their site: WLP566 Belgian Saison II Yeast
PLATINUM STRAIN – March/April
Saison strain with more fruity ester production than with WLP565. Moderately phenolic, with a clove-like characteristic in finished beer flavor and aroma. Ferments faster than WLP565. 
Attenuation: 78-85%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 68-78 F
Alcohol Tolerance: Medium

What caught my attention Was *Ferments faster than WLP565*

Edit: typo


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## Fingerlickin_B

Chris said:


> How do you guys recon T-58 would go in a saison?



Well? :huh: 

PZ.


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## bindi

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Well? :huh:
> 
> PZ.




Well, No no no  sure it's estery, somewhat peppery and spicy flavor to quote DCL yeasts.
Use a Saison yeast you won't regret it.


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## Fingerlickin_B

Thanks for that. 

Any bottles it can be recultured from? 

PZ.


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## bindi

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Any bottles it can be recultured from?
> 
> PZ.


 Don't know of any <_< don't chance it and* BUY* some *WLP 565* and build it up then split it up for starters, easy as.


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## Fingerlickin_B

Yeah, *OK*, I may *have* to do *that*. 

Cheers for the info man, I appreciate it :beer: 

PZ.


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## Malnourished

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Any bottles it can be recultured from?


Yes - Saison Dupont. I've got a batch with recultured Dupont yeast fermenting right - should be interesting to compare with 3724 if the brewer's four strain claims in Farmhouse Ales are correct.

Has anyone tried reculturing from Barking Duck? I suspect it isn't bottle-conditioned but I'm pretty sure they use a combination of 3724 and something more plain (1056?)

Chevalier Saison would be another candidate but I doubt that's available outside of Vic.


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## randyrob

Malnourished said:


> Has anyone tried reculturing from Barking Duck? I suspect it isn't bottle-conditioned but I'm pretty sure they use a combination of 3724 and something more plain (1056?)



Yes it is bottle conditioned! i read it on the matilda bay website somewhere it excapes me now.

would using the 1056 speed up fermentation? i'm not real keen on waiting a month for it to ferment out.

Cheers Rob.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB

Okay, I am ready to bottle my first attempt at a Saison and was wondering for those brewers that have bottled this style before what sort of priming sugar/ litre ratio you use? FG is at 1006 BTW.

C&B
TDA


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## warrenlw63

TDA

Got prime high(ish). Around 8 grams per litre. :beer: 

Warren -


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## randyrob

Mines been in primary for nearly 5 Weeks! man how long do these things take?

Notes:

23L @ 1058

pitched @ 20*C and let rise to 30ish (now sitting on 36*C with 2 x heater belts)

Starting SG=1058
Week 1 SG=1040
Week 2 SG=1032
Week 3 SG=1022
Week 4 SG=1020 
Week 4 1/2 SG=1016

its still bubbling every few seconds!

Rob.


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## tipsy_mcstagger

Bottled a saison on the weekend managed to get it down from 1.066 to 1.010 in six weeks.


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## randyrob

tipsy_mcstagger said:


> Bottled a saison on the weekend managed to get it down from 1.066 to 1.010 in six weeks.




another one tipsy  i know it'll be worth the wait the hydro samples are tasting awesome
i'll return the favour and flick you one when it's matured some!


Rob.


----------



## DJR

Had a saison in primary about 4 weeks ago, 1062 OG, down now to 1003! Helped that i went on holidays for 2 weeks. Still, it got to 1020 in primary after about 4 days, since i pitched a healthy yeast population - about 800mL starter on a stirplate. That's about 95% attenuation. Gotta bottle it soon and dilute it a bit since now it's at 7.7% alcohol or so, when i wanted it about the 6% mark


----------



## randyrob

tipsy_mcstagger said:


> Bottled a saison on the weekend managed to get it down from 1.066 to 1.010 in six weeks.



i was planning on having a few bottled to give to a beer loving mate for his birthday, might just have
to bottle a few without adding sugar and let the last few points create the carbonation, anyone ever done
this (they'll be going into champaign bottles, so nice and thick walls. lets hope no explosions)

Rob.


----------



## tipsy_mcstagger

This is my Silly Saison for xmas, added the dregs of Orval & a Gueze boon so see how it develops. Tasty good flat & warm when I was bottling it.

You going to the brew day at kooks?


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB

warrenlw63 said:


> TDA
> 
> Got prime high(ish). Around 8 grams per litre. :beer:
> 
> Warren -



Cheers Warren,

I will go with that amount.

C&B
TDA


----------



## Stuster

randyrob said:


> i was planning on having a few bottled to give to a beer loving mate for his birthday, might just have
> to bottle a few without adding sugar and let the last few points create the carbonation, anyone ever done
> this (they'll be going into champaign bottles, so nice and thick walls. lets hope no explosions)
> 
> Rob.



Be very careful with this, even with champagne bottles. You said it's still at 1016. I'm amazed that it has taken so long, but the Saison yeast seems to sometimes. It also attenuates very, very well, so I would be surprised if it's really done now. If you wanted to bottle a few and then drink them within the near future that'd probably be ok, but I'm not sure I'd bottle the whole batch just yet.


----------



## randyrob

tipsy_mcstagger said:


> You going to the brew day at kooks?




yeah should be mate :beer:


----------



## randyrob

Stuster said:


> Be very careful with this, even with champagne bottles. You said it's still at 1016. I'm amazed that it has taken so long, but the Saison yeast seems to sometimes. It also attenuates very, very well, so I would be surprised if it's really done now. If you wanted to bottle a few and then drink them within the near future that'd probably be ok, but I'm not sure I'd bottle the whole batch just yet.



Heya Stuster, thanks for the concern.

i should have spelled it out a bit more i guess. was planning waiting until sometime this weekend
then bottling a couple for him (hopefully it will be around 1010 by then) then just saying to him after a
couple of weeks or so chuck em in the fridge (hopefully this slows down yeasty activity and gives it enough
carbonation)

nothing worse than rocking up empty handed.


----------



## warrenlw63

randyrob said:


> Heya Stuster, thanks for the concern.
> 
> i should have spelled it out a bit more i guess. was planning waiting until sometime this weekend
> then bottling a couple for him (hopefully it will be around 1010 by then) then just saying to him after a
> couple of weeks or so chuck em in the fridge (hopefully this slows down yeasty activity and gives it enough
> carbonation)
> 
> nothing worse than rocking up empty handed.



Get the Orval dregs in chaps... The brett will eat the lot. :beer: 

Warren -


----------



## Trent

My saison dropped from 1070 to 1004 in 4 weeks, so I would be a little hesitant bottling even at 1010. Mind you, depending on how high you mashed, it could be done by then, I guess.
T.


----------



## randyrob

Mashed @ 66 for 1 1/2 Hours

what temp do you usually mash saison's at?

would be good if it gets nice and low like yours i've never had a batch go below 1010.

Rob.


----------



## Stuster

I did two batches. One was mashed at 64C, came down from 1054 to 1004. The second batch was also 64C and came down from 1053 to 1004. Pretty consistent really in the low 90s attenuation. According to Farmhouse Ales, commercial saison brewers use a step mash, something I am really unlikely to do. Both batches were finished in less than 3 weeks. Of course, neither batch had any crystal, just base malts. What was your grain bill, rob?


----------



## randyrob

Stuster said:


> I did two batches. One was mashed at 64C, came down from 1054 to 1004. The second batch was also 64C and came down from 1053 to 1004. Pretty consistent really in the low 90s attenuation. According to Farmhouse Ales, commercial saison brewers use a step mash, something I am really unlikely to do. Both batches were finished in less than 3 weeks. Of course, neither batch had any crystal, just base malts. What was your grain bill, rob?



5kg Pils, 1kg Munich, 300g Wheat. E.K.G for bittering & Flavour, Saaz for Aroma, Some Dried Orange Peel, Corriander, Cardamon Pods & Organic Camonmile.


----------



## Stuster

Sounds the goods. What size starter did you use? Was it first gen? How long did the starter ferment for, etc etc?
I know it has a reputation for being a difficult yeast, but it really seemed fine to me. Took longer than a Brit/Am ale of course.


----------



## Trent

RR
I actually used a step mash (infusion style), 62C for 30 mins, and then 67C for 30 mins. Simple grain bill, 6kg pale malt, 1.2kg malted wheat. Used that to see what kind of profile the yeast would give, and didnt use any spices, the yeast was pinched out of Doc's Xmas case offering. Isnt as tart as I want it, though is still fairly young, but has a fair bit of yeast complexity. Quite an enjoyable beer, really.

Stuster
Give the step mash a try, I mashed in at 2L/kg, and then added hot water to hit my 67C, I dont think it would have dropped down that low (from 1070) without the rest at 62. I think the rest at 67 gave it a fair maltiness, so maybe I will just mash at 63C next time for an hour, see if that can get the dryness I am after. I was just happy I hit bot my temp targets! First time for everything I suppose.
All the best
Trent


----------



## randyrob

Stuster said:


> Sounds the goods. What size starter did you use? Was it first gen? How long did the starter ferment for, etc etc?
> I know it has a reputation for being a difficult yeast, but it really seemed fine to me. Took longer than a Brit/Am ale of course.



Heya,

yeah first gen smack pack, starter stepped up to 3L (e.g. 100ml, 500ml, 1L etc)
i stepped it up over the space of a week and then pitched it on the weekend.
when i pitched, it was going wild a real thick krausen within 2 hours.

Rob.


----------



## sam

randyrob said:


> Malnourished said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes - Saison Dupont. I've got a batch with recultured Dupont yeast fermenting right - should be interesting to compare with 3724 if the brewer's four strain claims in Farmhouse Ales are correct.
> 
> Has anyone tried reculturing from Barking Duck? I suspect it isn't bottle-conditioned but I'm pretty sure they use a combination of 3724 and something more plain (1056?)
> 
> Chevalier Saison would be another candidate but I doubt that's available outside of Vic.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it is bottle conditioned! i read it on the matilda bay website somewhere it excapes me now.
> 
> would using the 1056 speed up fermentation? i'm not real keen on waiting a month for it to ferment out.
> 
> Cheers Rob.
Click to expand...


I'm not sure if its changed since they first started brewing Barking Duck, but I think the second culture was something a little more "interesting" than 1056. They might have changed it to make production/fermentation more consistent, which I think was a problem initially. If you can culture from the bottle it would be a good one to try.


----------



## randyrob

randyrob said:


> Mines been in primary for nearly 5 Weeks! man how long do these things take?
> 
> Notes:
> 
> 23L @ 1058
> 
> pitched @ 20*C and let rise to 30ish (now sitting on 36*C with 2 x heater belts)
> 
> Starting SG=1058
> Week 1 SG=1040
> Week 2 SG=1032
> Week 3 SG=1022
> Week 4 SG=1020
> Week 4 1/2 SG=1016
> 
> its still bubbling every few seconds!
> 
> Rob.



Week 5 SG=1012
Week 6 SG=1010
Week 7 SG=1008

and it's still fermenting.........


----------



## randyrob

randyrob said:


> Week 5 SG=1012
> Week 6 SG=1010
> Week 7 SG=1008
> 
> and it's still fermenting.........




Well its Week 8 and SG=1008 still but there is still posative pressure i.e. the airlock is still bubbling
the outside temperature is 20* C and the Fermenter is sitting on 36*C could this be causing the posative pressure, i'm hoping it would have finished fermentation by now and it's just releasing the co2 inside the beer? safe to bottle now guys?

Rob.


----------



## warrenlw63

randyrob said:


> Well its Week 8 and SG=1008 still but there is still posative pressure i.e. the airlock is still bubbling
> the outside temperature is 20* C and the Fermenter is sitting on 36*C could this be causing the posative pressure, i'm hoping it would have finished fermentation by now and it's just releasing the co2 inside the beer? safe to bottle now guys?
> 
> Rob.



Hey Rob if it's cleared I'd say it's safe to bottle.  

Warren -


----------



## Stuster

I'd say if it's been steady for a week, you're fine. Bubbling slowly or positive pressure like that are irrelevant really. Bottle away!


----------



## randyrob

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey Rob if it's cleared I'd say it's safe to bottle.
> 
> Warren -






Stuster said:


> I'd say if it's been steady for a week, you're fine. Bubbling slowly or positive pressure like that are irrelevant really. Bottle away!



Thanks Guys,

she is sooo clear i was suprised! but i guess what do you expect 8 weeks in primary.

Rob.


----------



## Steve Lacey

I want to make a Saison and plan to get WLP565. But down the track a little I would also like to make a Wit. Any opinions on whether 565 would also do a good job on a Wit, or would it be better to just go ahead and buy a specialist Wit yeast? Where possible I like to have versatile yeasts that will do a few different styles and thus keep the yeast bank as simple as possible (a hard task!)


----------



## warrenlw63

I'd say you'll have no worries Steve. Probably not an overly correct statement but I reckon most Belgian yeasts will make a good/serviceable wit of varying degrees.

Was always my method of choice to make a wit and then save the Belgian yeast slurry for a stronger beer.

Go for it. Just remember to post your results. :beerbang: 

Warren -


----------



## brendanos

I love this thread.

I found a pack of Wyeast 3725 (Biere De Garde, Fantome) lonely and growing long in the whiskers at TWOC a while back, and couldn't resist adopting it. So two weeks ago I brewed a Biere De Garde, and yesterday I racked a Super Saison onto the cake as the BDG went into the fridge to garde.

The BDG took a while to take off, as I tried to find the right temperature range to keep it happy, but after ramping up to 30 it chugged away nicely. What really surprised me was how fast the Saison has taken off. It began at approx 1.062, and I'd planned to add some dextrose (for an estimated OG of 1.071) halfway into the fermentation (at 1.035), but after barely 12 hours in the fermenter at 26C, it had already chugged it's way down to 1.025! I guess after the BDG it was feening for some more action.

Has anyone used the 3725 before, and is able to comment on how well/fast it finishes? In hindsight I probably should have warm conditioned the BDG a little longer before lagering, it was only down to 1.011, though I did use a lot of specialty malts. I guess warm conditioning the Saison should give me a good indication. After the last days activity, it seems to behave quite differently to the 3724.


Recipes for both:


*Biere de Garde*

61% W Pils
15% W Vienna
9% W Munich I
5% W Melanoidin
3% W CaraMunich I
1.5% Bairds Amber
0.5% W Carafa I
5% Dextrose

20L, OG 1.058, 30IBU
Wyeast 3725

20g NZ Willamette 5.9% FWH
20g NZ Styrian Goldings 5.3% FWH
20g NZ Hallertau Aroma 6.8% 20 mins, w/ Yeast Nut., Irish Moss

Mashed at 45C for 30mins, 55C for 15mins, 62C for 30mins, 68C for 15 mins, mashout and fly sparge at 74C to 14L collected, topped up to 24L preboil.


*Super Saison*

78% W Pils
7.3% W Munich I
5% JW Wheat
2.5% Unmalted Wheat

7.2% Dextrose (boiled and added halfway into fermentation with some more yeast nutrient and a few mL of modiferm)

21L, OG 1.071, 40IBU

50g Hallertau Tradition Pellets 3.7% FWH
10g Horizon Pellets 9.3% FWH
10g Nelson Sauvin Pellets 12.2% 15mins, w/ Yeast Nut., Irish Moss
20g Nelson Sauvin Pellets 12.2% 2mins

Dupont Mash Schedule (45C -> 72C over 2 hours)

I also ended up blending about 1.5L of the BDG into the Saison as I could only fit a small fermenter into the fridge for lagering.


----------



## brendanos

Holy toledoes! After only three and a half days my Super Saison's pushing 1.003, and it's still going strong!


----------



## Stuster

Wow. Wonder what the effect of that mash schedule was then.


----------



## warrenlw63

brendanos said:


> I love this thread.
> 
> I found a pack of Wyeast 3725 (Biere De Garde, Fantome) lonely and growing long in the whiskers at TWOC a while back, and couldn't resist adopting it. So two weeks ago I brewed a Biere De Garde, and yesterday I racked a Super Saison onto the cake as the BDG went into the fridge to garde.



As do I brendanos (luvin' the thread).. Can't vouch for the yeast but please don't forget to tell us how the whole scene turns out. I'll be interested to hear.  

Warren -


----------



## brendanos

Stuster said:


> Wow. Wonder what the effect of that mash schedule was then.



I was a little worried since the seemingly underattenuated biere de garde (1.011 or 81%, was expecting more considering the dextrose content), but now it seems as though the squirt of modiferm might have been overkill...

Will do, Warren. I might even see my first 100%+ apparent attenuation!

Brendan


----------



## brendanos

The Super Saison seems to have reached a terminal gravity of 1.000 - 1.001 after a week. Wow. The bitterness is very pronounced, even at what I guess is a paltry 30-35IBU, though it will probably/hopefully smooth out dramatically over the following weeks.


----------



## pmolou

I'm wondering when your brewing a saison as i've read it can take up to 6 weeks to fully ferment.
Is this on the primary yeast cake or racked into secondry.
As with normal beers you'd get yeast bite at such high temps on the cake for a long period of time or does this not apply for saisons yeast

PS. I never rack my beer

I just bought a temple's saison from G&G and going toculture that for the yeast anyone tried temple's saison???


----------



## choppadoo

haven't tried the temple saison, but late last year i cultured yeast out of a bottle of saison dupont. after a dubious starter i pitched anyway, and it turned out beautifully.


----------



## Stuster

That long time for fermentation is for the most commonly supplied Saison yeast, the one supplied by Wyeast and White Labs which is the Dupont yeast. Six weeks seems a bit long - as long as you keep the temperature high it should finish in 3 weeks or so, at least in my experience. There are other Saison yeasts that are released from time to time by the yeast companies and some of them are a bit quicker. The yeast works well at 28C or higher and it won't throw off flavours/fusels at that temp.

Good luck with culturing that yeast. I've given up doing it as it wasn't worth the effort for me. Many yeasts in big beers transported half way round the world seem to have given up the ghost. But you might have luck. Just be careful that you taste and smell the starter, and maybe even take a gravity reading to make sure it's working. Let us know how it goes and what recipe you end up using.


----------



## pmolou

i was going to mod this recipe 
and get rid of the carapils and wheat and add 200grams of crystal malt and use the temple's saison yeast which is an aussie brand so not from halfway round the world  

I've been told to hold in primary for two weeks then 1 week in secondry then lager for two weeks then bottle. Is this necessary as i dont have a secondry fermentor or is it worth spending the extra 15$ to get a racking bin????

any tips on the recipe was going to use a british ale but then decided to try something differant
*Flying Fish Brewery Farmhouse Summer Ale 
(5 gallon/19 L, extract with grains) 
OG = 1.0451.048 FG = 1.0101.011 
IBU = 18 SRM = 3+ ABV = 4.34.6% 

Ingredients* 
3.3 lbs. (1.5 kg) Coopers light malt extract syrup 
2.2 lbs. (1.0 kg) Briess wheat dry malt extract 
0.5 lbs. (0.2 kg) wheat malt 
3 oz. (85 g) Carapils (dextrin) malt 
3 oz. (85 g) pale 2-row malt (for sour mash) 
1.0 AAU Styrian Golding hops 
(0.25 oz./7g of 4.0% alpha acid) 
3.5 AAU Magnum 
(0.25 oz./1.8 g of 14.0% alpha acid) 
2.1 AAU Styrian Golding hops 
(0.53 oz./15 g of 4.0% alpha acid) 
1.4 AAU Styrian Golding hops 
(0.35 oz./10 g of 4.0% alpha acid) 
White Labs WLP005 (British Ale) or 
Wyeast 1098 (British Ale) yeast 
0.75 cup of corn sugar (for priming) 

*Step by Step *
For the sour mash, start 23 days in advance. Steep 3 oz. (85 g) 2-row pale malt in a pint of 150 F (66 C) water, then cover and let sit for 23 days. On brew day, steep the sour mash along with the wheat and dextrin malt grains in 3 gallons (11.4 L) of water at 152 F (67 C) for 30 mins. Remove grains from wort, add the first wort addition of Styrian Golding hops, malt syrup and dry malt extract, tnen bring to a boil. Add the Magnum hops and boil for 60 mins. Add the second addition of Styrian Golding hops for the last 30 mins. of the boil and add the last addition of Styrian Golding hops for the last 2 mins. of the boil. Now add wort to 2 gallons cool water in a sanitary fermenter and top off with cool water to 5.5 gallons (20.9 L). Cool the wort to 75 F (24 C), aerate the beer and pitch your yeast. Allow the beer to cool over the next few hours to 68 F (20 C) and hold at this temperature until the yeast has finished fermentation. Bottle and enjoy!


----------



## winkle

I'll be firing up a saison this weekend.
Pretty basic using 80% BB Ale + 20% BB Wheat mashed at 65 C hopped with NZ Hallertau and Tettnanger hop plugs. Yeast- W3711.
Can anyone who has played with the french saison yeast, let me know what sort of time frame to expect at 26-28 C?


----------



## Stuster

We had some great saisons by Double A (who doesn't seem to be around much) at the start of the year made with this year, winkle. He'd fermented at around 20C and it was done at two weeks. There was plenty of yeast character there and I think there's no real need to push this one too hot.


----------



## petesbrew

I'm planning to do one closer to summer when the garage temperature warms up, 
I've got a nice farmhouse ale culture I grabbed off Rukh which I'm saving for this baby.


----------



## bconnery

I tried the Temple Saison mentioned above recently. 
I liked it. 
Can't comment on culturing the yeast but I thought it was a nice beer myself. Good palish colour, good body but still finishing nicely. 

I've used the seasonal wyeast French Saison 3711 recently and it fermented down to 1004/3 easily, with a mash temp of 64C, and ferment temps starting at around 19C and then ramping up to ambient, Brisbane, mostly in the mid to highish 20s. 
After reading of some of the issues people had with saison yeasts I was surprised. 

I've only kegged it last night but hydrometer samples were very promising!

I can say so far that it appears Nelson Sauvin isn't out of place in a saison...
Time will tell though, need to do some drinking to make space in the fridge... Damn ANHC got in the way of my keg emptying :icon_cheers: 

Batch Size: 24.00 L 
Boil Size: 35.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 11.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 28.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 70 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2500.00 gm Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 43.48 % 
1500.00 gm Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EGrain 26.09 % 
1000.00 gm Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 17.39 % 
500.00 gm Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 8.70 % 
50.00 gm Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 0.87 % 
25.00 gm Hallertauer Aroma, New Zealand [8.50 %] (Hops - 
20.00 gm Northern Brewer [6.60 %] (60 min) Hops 14.5 IBU 
20.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [12.60 %] (15 min) Hops 13.7 IBU 
100.00 gm Brown Sugar, Light (15.8 EBC) Sugar 1.74 % 
100.00 gm Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (2.0 EBC) Sugar 1.74 % 
1 Pkgs French Saison (Seasonal) (Wyeast Labs #371Yeast-Ale


----------



## glennheinzel

I posted this in the WAYB II thread the other night, but its probaby appropriate to repost here. Its based on Jamil's recipe, however he uses the standard Hallertau hops and he uses all table sugar (not Lyles+table sugar).

Its sitting in the NC cube at the moment and I hope to unleash some Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse Ale yeast on it in the next couple of weeks.

22 litres
Original Gravity: 1.060 (1.048 - 1.065)
Terminal Gravity: 1.008 (1.002 - 1.012)
Color: 5.55 (5.0 - 14.0)
Alcohol: 6.73% (5.0% - 7.0%)
Bitterness: 30.0 (20.0 - 35.0)

Ingredients:
4.8 kg Pilsner Malt
.34 kg Wheat Malt Pale (Organic)
.34 kg Munich TYPE I
.06 kg Caramunich TYPE I
.45 kg Invert Sugar (how good does Lyles syrup taste?!)
.10 kg White Table Sugar (Sucrose)

35 g Hallertau Tradition (5.7%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
21 g Hallertau Tradition (5.7%) - flameout


----------



## pmolou

choppadoo said:


> haven't tried the temple saison, but late last year i cultured yeast out of a bottle of saison dupont. after a dubious starter i pitched anyway, and it turned out beautifully.




so the temple saison yeast worked well i think because i having trouble with head retention and carbonation despite the fact i added alot of priming sugar...

could this be from too much acidity in the beer 

it tastes good but i know it would taste much better with high carbonation

ps. i ended up adding a variety of yeast towards the 3/4 mark to speed up fermentation took over a month to happen...
us-56, abbey II,


----------



## kabooby

winkle said:


> I'll be firing up a saison this weekend.
> Pretty basic using 80% BB Ale + 20% BB Wheat mashed at 65 C hopped with NZ Hallertau and Tettnanger hop plugs. Yeast- W3711.
> Can anyone who has played with the french saison yeast, let me know what sort of time frame to expect at 26-28 C?



Hey Winkle, how did this one finish up?

I have a second cube of pils that I might put the 3711 French Saison yeast on, just for shits and giggles  

This was for a 40L batch

7.50 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 100.00 % 
45.00 gm Horizon [10.90 %] (60 min) Hops 31.9 IBU 
30.00 gm Saaz [3.20 %] (15 min) Hops 3.1 IBU 
45.00 gm Saaz [3.20 %] (0 min) Hops - 
200.00 ml Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 

I might add some dark candi sugar to beef it up a bit, or I might just leave it as is and have it a bit lower alcohol. Sometimes it's nice to have a few <5% beers on tap h34r:. 

At least it will give me a true indication of the yeast.

Kabooby


----------



## winkle

kabooby said:


> Hey Winkle, how did this one finish up?
> 
> I have a second cube of pils that I might put the 3711 French Saison yeast on, just for shits and giggles
> 
> 
> 
> Kabooby



Ended up using the farmhouse yeast 3726 (mostly due to hangover), and was that impressed I made 2 more batches on slurry with each getting a bit more spice and alcohol. Kept the temp down to 20 C + it had done the deed in 8 days.


----------



## warrenlw63

winkle said:


> Ended up using the farmhouse yeast 3726 (mostly due to hangover), and was that impressed I made 2 more batches on slurry with each getting a bit more spice and alcohol. Kept the temp down to 20 C + it had done the deed in 8 days.



+1 for 3726 Lots of interesting (but subtle) fruity flavours. Makes for a far quicker grain to brain saison over the dupont strain. :icon_drool2: 

Warren -


----------



## winkle

warrenlw63 said:


> +1 for 3726 Lots of interesting (but subtle) fruity flavours. Makes for a far quicker grain to brain saison over the dupont strain. :icon_drool2:
> 
> Warren -



This, of course, is extremely important.


----------



## Jye

Winkle and Warren, I just picked up a packed of 3726 so what sort of fermentation schedule did you guys use? Starting and finishing temps? Did you make any type of starter?

Im looking to pitching it into a very simple 1.045 beer purely to build it up for a 1.100 braggot ^_^


----------



## warrenlw63

Jye said:


> Winkle and Warren



:lol: We sound like a couple of Enid Blyton characters like Noddy and Big Ears.

FWIW Jye I pitched mine at 20 degrees and just let the thing have it's way until completion. The bulk of the fermentation temp was around the 26 degree mark. There was a time where it crept up as high as 30 degrees for a day and a bit.

To me the flavour is chock full of lychees with some mango in the background and a bit of spice. Lovely !! :icon_drool2: 

Warren -


----------



## winkle

I left mine at around 20 C for the whole ferment, fair bit of fruit, spice and a scented talc finish (in a good way).


----------



## kabooby

I fermented mine with the 3711 French Saison. After 3 days @ 20 I gave my fermentation freezer away and it has been fermenting commando since then. We have had a few warmer days here and it got up to 27C. Finished @ 1002. Glad I didn't add the sugar.

Anyway it is tasting really good. I might put half in a keg and bottle the other half with some Brett

Kabooby


----------



## Stuster

I've just bottled a double batch a couple of days ago split between the French Saison 3711 and the Farmhouse Ale 3726. They both just fermented at ambient, starting at around 22 and getting up to the mid-20s at times. It was only a 1044 wort, the Farmhouse finished at 1004 and the French Saison at 1002. Hard to say when bottling how they'll turn out, but they did both taste funky. :lol: The French Saison was impressively clear, as it has been with the other ones I've done with it. Both finished within a few days but I left them a fewWill post back in a week or so when I have an early taste of them both.


----------



## kabooby

Nice one Stuster

My OG was 1044 also. I was planning on having a nice Saison style easy drinker. I wasn't planning on it going so low. Anyway at least it's nice and dry Saison style

Kabooby


----------



## James Squire

I've got the grain cracked and ready for an early start tomorrow on my first Saison. Recipe as follows, any comments are welcome.

The Silly Saison

20L Batch size

3.0 Kgs Pils malt
0.75 Kgs Wheat malt
0.50 Kgs Light Munich malt
0.10 Kgs Caraaroma

10g POR @60min 
60g Styrian Goldings @60min
15g Styrian Goldings @20min
15g Styrian Goldings @10min

31.9 IBU
1.051 OG

Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse Ale

Cheers,

JS


----------



## Jye

Looks good and Ive just kegged a beer fermented with 3726 and preliminary tastings are good, should be ready to drink on the weekend. 

FYI I fermented at 18C for the first 24 hrs and then let it rise up to 22 for 3 weeks and ended up with 91% attenuation... this yeast is not lazy like other saison strains.


----------



## James Squire

Wow, great attenuation Jye! I had heard it was an active bugger of a yeast strain. What was your FG if you don't mind me asking?

The fermenting fridge is tied up at the moment so I plan to just let this one run its own course in the Melbourne weather. It looks like low 20's for the next few days and eventually starting to warm up. 

Cheers.


----------



## Jye

It went from 1.044 to 1.004. The plan was for a smaller session beer but I ended up with a normal strength beer  

Farmhouse Wheat 
Belgian Pale Ale 


Type: All Grain
Date: 8/12/2008 
Batch Size: 21.00 L
Brewer: Jye
Boil Size: 25.41 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: SK Brew Hous 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.0 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.70 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (2.0 SRM) Grain 75.0 % 
0.65 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (3.0 SRM) Grain 18.1 % 

15.00 gm Magnum [13.10%] (60 min) Hops 24.2 IBU 
20.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (20 min) Hops 6.0 IBU 

0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
2.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
2.50 gm Calcium Sulfate (Gypsum) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
0.25 kg Brown Sugar, Dark (50.0 SRM) Sugar 6.9 % 

1 Pkgs Farmhouse Ale (Wyeast Labs #3726) Yeast-Ale 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.045 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.044 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.010 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.004 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.5 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 % 
Bitterness: 30.2 IBU Calories: 400 cal/l 
Est Color: 6.1 SRM Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: SK - Double Infusion, Light Body Total Grain Weight: 3.35 kg 
Sparge Water: 19.71 L Grain Temperature: 25.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 100.0 C TunTemperature: 25.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Protein Rest Add 5.70 L of water at 61.7 C 55.0 C 20 min 
Saccrification Add 4.35 L of water at 81.0 C 65.0 C 60 min


----------



## winkle

I'm currently trying to build a farmhouse starter from the dregs of my last bottle of saison, since I can't source any 3724. Might make this a bit of a twisted take on a saison.
Monsoon Saison 
Saison 


Type: All Grain
Date: 26/09/08 
Batch Size: 20.00 L
Boil Size: 22.89 L
Boil Time: 60 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.00 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (3.0 SRM) Grain 79.68 % 
1.00 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SRM) Grain 19.92 % 
0.02 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 0.40 % 
26.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 25.0 IBU 
14.00 gm Perle plug (15 min) Hops 3.2 IBU 
14.00 gm Perle plug(Dry Hop 3 days) Hops - 
0.24 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 

Spice additions - 5 minute boil
2 whole stalks lemon grass (chopped)
1 tsp ginger powder
8gm coriander seeds


Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.059 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.75 % 
Bitterness: 28.2 IBU Calories: 550 cal/l 
Est Color: 5.2 SRM 

Debating with myself if I should bung some kafir lime leaves in or leave it as is.


----------



## bindi

Spice additions - 5 minute boil
2 whole stalks lemon grass (chopped)
1 tsp ginger powder
8gm coriander seeds



Debating with myself if I should bung some kafir lime leaves in or leave it as is.
[/quote]


Lemon Grass is YUCK in a beer [been there done that] as is Kafir lime [worked in a wheat only in small amounts once, never again], as for spices you will not need them, BUT you MUST have the yeast, 3724 IMHO.


----------



## winkle

bindi said:


> Spice additions - 5 minute boil
> 2 whole stalks lemon grass (chopped)
> 1 tsp ginger powder
> 8gm coriander seeds
> 
> 
> 
> Debating with myself if I should bung some kafir lime leaves in or leave it as is.
> 
> 
> 
> Lemon Grass is YUCK in a beer [been there done that] as is Kafir lime [worked in a wheat only in small amounts once, never again], as for spices you will not need them, BUT you MUST have the yeast, 3724 IMHO.



Ooops, the 3724 starter was actually the Wyeast 3726 farmhouse strain hopefully it'll be ready by Monday for pitching.
Think I'll take your advice Bindi and ditch the lemon grass, replace with some dried lemon peel and forget the kafir lime leaves. B)


----------



## Effect

I've got a smack pack of the 3711 french saison.

Not too sure on what grain bill or hops to go with this. Any ideas? This would be my first saison ever, and have never tried a commercial one either.

From this thread I am thinking of going a simple 90/10 pale/wheat grain bill. As for hops, I think I read that someone used B saaz. How did that go/ would go? Other than that I am thinking of doing a single bittering addition of styrian goldings. Also want this on the lower end of the scale. so about 1.050 OG and roughly 25 IBU?

Anything blaringly wrong with this?

(Sorry if this doesn't make too much sense - been awake all night because of guests checking in late at the hotel and wankers setting off fire alarms...)

Cheers
Phil


----------



## neonmeate

b saaz could be interesting but you get plenty of nice fruitiness from the yeast anyway so the passionfruit stuff from the B saaz gets a bit much. i did a saison with saaz b and pacific hallertau recently that was a bit overly fruity with the nz hops, although after a few months now that the initial hop aroma has settled down it's very nice now. OTOH every time i use czech saaz i wonder why i bother with any other hops. it is just the best.

the rest of your recipe looks good - although i think pils malt rather than pale - but why not ramp up the bitterness, you're not making a witbier... i like 40 IBUs in a saison. you want a dry and hoppy and spicy beer.


----------



## Effect

neonmeate said:


> b saaz could be interesting but you get plenty of nice fruitiness from the yeast anyway so the passionfruit stuff from the B saaz gets a bit much. i did a saison with saaz b and pacific hallertau recently that was a bit overly fruity with the nz hops, although after a few months now that the initial hop aroma has settled down it's very nice now. OTOH every time i use czech saaz i wonder why i bother with any other hops. it is just the best.
> 
> the rest of your recipe looks good - although i think pils malt rather than pale - but why not ramp up the bitterness, you're not making a witbier... i like 40 IBUs in a saison. you want a dry and hoppy and spicy beer.




Thanks for your reply neonmeate.

I will go the pils/wheat 90/10, styrian for bittering and czech saaz for flavour. Still aiming for 1.050 and now a boosted 40 IBU.

Should I trade some of the pils malt for some munich I? Maybe 75/15/10 Pils/Munich/Wheat?

And of course I will be using the French Saison, which seems to be getting some mad reviews on an american home brew forum...absolutely chewing through the wort in only a few days...


----------



## neonmeate

munich is your call, lot of people do add a bit for a saison, nice for a bit of maltiness but i like the saison dupont style all pils malt version. with a quality pils malt like weyermann you get great malt flavour just from the pils on its own. that 3711 will clear out really nicely to let the malt flavour through better than the 3724 will too. expect a crazily low fg with that yeast.... very good for tripels too if you want to harvest the krauesen from this one and reuse the stuff.


----------



## kabooby

I agree with Neonmate. My favourite saison with 3711 was all pilsner.

I just mashed one today and added some flaked oats to try and get that silky mouthfeel. Used the Hallertaur flowers as I have an absolute shirt load of them.

7.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 82.35 % 
0.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 5.88 % 
0.50 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 5.88 % 
0.20 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 2.35 % 
40.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [7.90 %] (60 min) Hops 17.5 IBU 
30.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [7.90 %] (30 min) Hops 10.1 IBU 
30.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [7.90 %] (0 min) Hops - 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
20.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
0.30 kg Cane sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 3.53 % 
1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) Yeast-Ale 

Kabooby


----------



## Effect

but how do I up the colour with just pilsner malt?

It seems to want to come out at about 3.5 SRM...


----------



## Stuster

That's fine really, Philip. No problem with the colour being pale. Many saisons are pretty pale, though not all. It's a more varied 'style' than the BJCP guidelines suggest, so I'd agree with neonmeate and kabooby that you can make a very tasty beer with mainly pilsner malt and that yeast. Styrians for aroma would be good instead of or as well as Saaz.

In terms of Munich, I've made Saisons with or without and both can be good. It partly depends on what pils malt you are using. What were you going to use?


----------



## xomz

I'm planning on mixing this partial up:

Thomas Coopers Light Malt Extract 1.5kg x 2
Light Dried Malt Extract 500g
Pale Ale Malt 1.3kg

Northern Brewer 16g (60min)
Styrian Goldings 20g (30min)
Styrian Goldings 10g (5min)

Wyeast #3724 Saison

23L batch; Ferment at around 26C-28C

Beersmith says:
OG 1.058
EBC 6.5
IBU 26.5


----------



## Tony

I have been away for 3 weeks with work and left my Saison fermenting at 30 deg c next to the bar.

I envisaged green slime and puss oozing from the airlock (which was completly dry by the way) on my return but was plesantly suprised to find its finnished and tastes fantastic. Spicy, slightly fruity amd dry as dry  Some bready malt, balanced with a mild floral spicy hop note and a touch of acid to leave extend the dry finnish.

And thats from the fermenter @ 30 deg 

I used dark wheat instead of munich for the dry bready spicy character it has. Also the Bourghul to help dry it out a bit.

Its down to 1.004 from 1.057. Thats 92.5% attenuation and about 7% ABV.

Cant wait to get it in the glass.

I think im gunna brew up a batch of stout with a pils base and use carafa spec II and a touch of chocolate wheat. This can go on the yeast cake.

recipe:



Saison

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 28.00 Wort Size (L): 28.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.82
Anticipated OG: 1.057 Plato: 13.98
Anticipated EBC: 17.3
Anticipated IBU: 28.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 87 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
77.3 4.50 kg. Weyermann Premium Pilsner Germany 1.038 3
10.3 0.60 kg. Weyermann Wheat Dark Germany 1.037 18
6.4 0.38 kg. Bourghul Turkey 1.036 5
3.4 0.20 kg. Special B Belgium 1.035 310
2.6 0.15 kg. Weyermann Acidulated Germany 1.035 5

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
60.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.50 23.8 45 min.
20.00 g. E.K Goldings Pellet 4.30 4.1 15 min.
30.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 0.9 2 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison




Cheers


----------



## winkle

Sounds good Tony, I've got a batch conditioning that used 3711 (gee I miss 3726) it ticked all the boxes and should be the bomb in this current heatwave.


----------



## Tony

I had a go at the farmhouse ale yeast 3726 and didnt split the pack before use.

I regretted it when it got infected.

cheers


----------



## winkle

Next release I'll buy Ross's entire stock of 3726 :lol: . Great yeast, good profile and finishes in a week or so. 3711 took about 9 days and finished as dry as a dead dingos donga. I might send you a bottle from the keg if I get my act together.


----------



## Effect

Stuster said:


> That's fine really, Philip. No problem with the colour being pale. Many saisons are pretty pale, though not all. It's a more varied 'style' than the BJCP guidelines suggest, so I'd agree with neonmeate and kabooby that you can make a very tasty beer with mainly pilsner malt and that yeast. Styrians for aroma would be good instead of or as well as Saaz.
> 
> In terms of Munich, I've made Saisons with or without and both can be good. It partly depends on what pils malt you are using. What were you going to use?



I was hoping to use Weyermann Pilsner. I s'pose that the weyermann pilsner won't need munich to help on the malty side...I more like the colour.

But I am planning to have this in summer (another reason why I want it around 1.050 - not to high in the ABV), and a paler style would probably be more appealing then than it is now.

I am a bit confused as well about when to drink a saison, is it like a wheat beer (better young) or does it benefit (or not deteriate) with extended conditioning? I was hoping to bottle in some champagne bottles at the end of september/ early october and have it ready for christmas.


----------



## kabooby

Phillip said:


> I was hoping to use Weyermann Pilsner. I s'pose that the weyermann pilsner won't need munich to help on the malty side...I more like the colour.
> 
> But I am planning to have this in summer (another reason why I want it around 1.050 - not to high in the ABV), and a paler style would probably be more appealing then than it is now.
> 
> I am a bit confused as well about when to drink a saison, is it like a wheat beer (better young) or does it benefit (or not deteriate) with extended conditioning? I was hoping to bottle in some champagne bottles at the end of september/ early october and have it ready for christmas.



I love this style so I drink it whenever I have one on tap. No problems keeping it for a few months or even longer.

Kabooby


----------



## kabooby

kabooby said:


> 7.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 82.35 %
> 0.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 5.88 %
> 0.50 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 5.88 %
> 0.20 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 2.35 %
> 40.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [7.90 %] (60 min) Hops 17.5 IBU
> 30.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [7.90 %] (30 min) Hops 10.1 IBU
> 30.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [7.90 %] (0 min) Hops -
> 1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
> 20.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
> 0.30 kg Cane sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 3.53 %
> 1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) Yeast-Ale
> 
> Kabooby



Picked up a vial of the WLP566 Belgian Saison 2 today. I already have a starter going with the 3711 so I might do a blend just for the fun of it 

Kabooby


----------



## neonmeate

3724 is a strange yeast. even though you'd expect it to be like a wheat and ready to drink as soon as carbed - it's a very slow yeast and i find that they really hit their straps after 4-6 months, even for a 5-6% saison.
expect 6.5% ABV from a 1050 OG!!


----------



## Tony

Im board!

Im racking my Saison tomorrow night so im gunna knock up a Saison Stout to put on the yeast cake.

Recipe.


Saison Stout

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 27.00 Wort Size (L): 27.00
Total Grain (kg): 6.45
Anticipated OG: 1.060 Plato: 14.72
Anticipated EBC: 70.6
Anticipated IBU: 34.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
62.0 4.00 kg. Weyermann Premium Pilsner Germany 1.038 3
15.5 1.00 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 26
7.8 0.50 kg. Weyermann Pale Wheat Germany 1.038 4
4.7 0.30 kg. Weyermann Carabohemien Germany 1.034 200
4.7 0.30 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special II Germany 1.036 1100
3.1 0.20 kg. Special B Belgium 1.035 310
2.3 0.15 kg. Weyermann Choc Wheat Germany 1.035 1100

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
80.00 g. E.K Goldings Pellet 4.30 30.7 45 min.
12.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 2.1 15 min.
20.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 1.4 5 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison


----------



## Stuster

Hmm, looks good, Tony. I did a dark saison a while ago and it's pretty good and improving with some time in the bottle. I think it's certainly worth a go. That yeast is much better behaved in later generations in my experience.

You've got some interesting malts in there that I haven't used. Have you tried the carabohemian malt before?


----------



## winkle

Tony said:


> Im board!
> 
> Im racking my Saison tomorrow night so im gunna knock up a Saison Stout to put on the yeast cake.
> 
> Recipe.
> 
> 
> Saison Stout
> 
> A ProMash Recipe Report
> 
> Recipe Specifics
> ----------------
> 
> Batch Size (L): 27.00 Wort Size (L): 27.00
> Total Grain (kg): 6.45
> Anticipated OG: 1.060 Plato: 14.72
> Anticipated EBC: 70.6
> Anticipated IBU: 34.3
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
> Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
> 
> 
> Grain/Extract/Sugar
> 
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 62.0 4.00 kg. Weyermann Premium Pilsner Germany 1.038 3
> 15.5 1.00 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 26
> 7.8 0.50 kg. Weyermann Pale Wheat Germany 1.038 4
> 4.7 0.30 kg. Weyermann Carabohemien Germany 1.034 200
> 4.7 0.30 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special II Germany 1.036 1100
> 3.1 0.20 kg. Special B Belgium 1.035 310
> 2.3 0.15 kg. Weyermann Choc Wheat Germany 1.035 1100
> 
> Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
> 
> 
> Hops
> 
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 80.00 g. E.K Goldings Pellet 4.30 30.7 45 min.
> 12.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 2.1 15 min.
> 20.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 3.70 1.4 5 min.
> 
> 
> Yeast
> -----
> 
> WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison



Sure looking good Tony, let me know how it turns out


----------



## Tony

Ahhhh an astute eye Stu  I was going toi see how long it took for someone to see that.

mate..... i just got it yesterday. It tastes kind of like a light caraaroma when chewed. Very malty and intense. Im keen to give a few% a go in an oktoberfest

The mash smells awsome i can tell you that much 

Cheers


----------



## Effect

I threw down a saison the other day...

3.89 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 90.0 %
0.43 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 10.0 %
40.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.40%] (60 min) Hops 25.1 IBU
40.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (20 min) Hops 11.3 IBU
20.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (10 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711-PC) Yeast-Ale 


I've got a new mill and set the efficiency to 80% (I was usually getting 70%) but I got 85%, so it turned out around 1.055. Throw the 3711 yeast on top and its probably going to turn out about 6.5%...it sure is a feisty yeast. When I smacked the packet it was like it just inflated in my hands and then punched me in the face...very aggresive yeast to say the least 

I chucked the 20g of saaz in for aroma, only 20g that is, didn't want a strong hop aroma, hopfully the yeast will provide most of that. This beer is a trial for the sa christmas case swap, if it is good, I will try and brew a lower alcohol version.

Cheers
Phil


----------



## neonmeate

looks damn good phillip. yes that 3711 is ravenous. usually gets 95+% apparent attenuation for me...


----------



## D.lycle

Good morning What is the best way to save the "Tip of the Week" to my computer. I have been saving as a txt. file but then you do not have the follow along pictures included........suggestions? thanks


----------



## mika

D.lycle said:


> Good morning What is the best way to save the "Tip of the Week" to my computer. I have been saving as a txt. file but then you do not have the follow along pictures included........suggestions? thanks



:huh: ?


----------



## glennheinzel

Rukh said:


> 22 litres
> Original Gravity: 1.060 (1.048 - 1.065)
> Terminal Gravity: 1.008 (1.002 - 1.012)
> Color: 5.55 (5.0 - 14.0)
> Alcohol: 6.73% (5.0% - 7.0%)
> Bitterness: 30.0 (20.0 - 35.0)
> 
> Ingredients:
> 4.8 kg Pilsner Malt
> .34 kg Wheat Malt Pale (Organic)
> .34 kg Munich TYPE I
> .06 kg Caramunich TYPE I
> .45 kg Invert Sugar (how good does Lyles syrup taste?!)
> .10 kg White Table Sugar (Sucrose)
> 
> 35 g Hallertau Tradition (5.7%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
> 21 g Hallertau Tradition (5.7%) - flameout



The recipe above finished at 1.002. It tasted great, although it got knocked at the NSW titles for being too sweet. 

I'm tinkering with my next recipe. I want something a bit drier (without the residual sweetness) for summer. I also wanted to use a few different grains, including some oats that I got from late grandma's house (and hence the beer name). 

Grandma's Farm Ale
Size: 20.0 L
Efficiency: 70.0%
Attenuation: 94.0%
Original Gravity: 1.049 (1.048 - 1.065)
Terminal Gravity: 1.003 (1.002 - 1.012)
Alcohol: 6.08%
Bitterness: 24.9

Ingredients:
3.5 kg Pilsner Malt
0.5 kg Rye Malt
0.5 kg Oats Flaked
0.5 kg Pale Wheat Malt
25.0 g Styrian Goldings (5.4%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
29.0 g Hallertau Mittelfruh (4.6%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
10.0 g Hallertau Mittelfruh (4.6%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
Edit: Looking to use Wyeast Belgian Farmhouse yeast.

What do you think?


----------



## kabooby

Looks good to me. What yeast were you going to use?

I got pinned for being too sweet in the states aswell, beer finished @1002. To be fair to the judges, I had added some cane sugar during the ferment that sent the ferment out of control. As a result I found the beer to be too phenolic and it did have a perceived sweetness. Beer didn't score bad but was considered to be "not dry enough for style"

I have had much better results adding sugar to the end of the boil. Easier to control the fermentation. If I try adding sugar to the fermenter again I will do it in smaller amounts over a few days.

Kabooby


----------



## glennheinzel

kabooby said:


> Looks good to me. What yeast were you going to use?
> 
> I got pinned for being too sweet in the states aswell, beer finished @1002. To be fair to the judges, I had added some cane sugar during the ferment that sent the ferment out of control. As a result I found the beer to be too phenolic and it did have a perceived sweetness. Beer didn't score bad but was considered to be "not dry enough for style"
> 
> I have had much better results adding sugar to the end of the boil. Easier to control the fermentation. If I try adding sugar to the fermenter again I will do it in smaller amounts over a few days.
> 
> Kabooby



Cool. Hopefully I'll get a bit of tartness from the wheat, a touch of spiceyness from the rye and some additional mouthfeel from the oats. (not sure if I've got enough of each to really notice).

I'll be using Wyeast 3726 PC Farmhouse Ale "This strain produces complex esters balanced with earthy/spicy notes. Slightly tart and dry with a peppery finish. A perfect strain for farmhouse ales and saisons". I've got an old smack pack so I'll step it up before use.

Cheers,

Rukh.


----------



## kabooby

With over 10% of each I think you have enough. I used 5% of oats in my last saison and I think I will up it a bit more for the next batch. IMO a nice silky mouthfeel suits this style perfect.

Let us know how the yeast goes.

Kabooby


----------



## Effect

Phillip said:


> I threw down a saison the other day...
> 
> 3.89 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 90.0 %
> 0.43 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 10.0 %
> 40.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.40%] (60 min) Hops 25.1 IBU
> 40.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (20 min) Hops 11.3 IBU
> 20.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (10 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
> 0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
> 1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
> 1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711-PC) Yeast-Ale
> 
> 
> I've got a new mill and set the efficiency to 80% (I was usually getting 70%) but I got 85%, so it turned out around 1.055. Throw the 3711 yeast on top and its probably going to turn out about 6.5%...it sure is a feisty yeast. When I smacked the packet it was like it just inflated in my hands and then punched me in the face...very aggresive yeast to say the least
> 
> I chucked the 20g of saaz in for aroma, only 20g that is, didn't want a strong hop aroma, hopfully the yeast will provide most of that. This beer is a trial for the sa christmas case swap, if it is good, I will try and brew a lower alcohol version.
> 
> Cheers
> Phil



Had this on tap a week or so ago and it got smashed hardcore...didn't last long at all and was probably one of the best beers I have brewed...I'm more than happy to put it in the sa case swap, but have lowered it down to about 5% alcohol as 6.5 was a tad too much.

Cheers
Phil


----------



## A3k

Phillip said:


> Had this on tap a week or so ago and it got smashed hardcore...didn't last long at all and was probably one of the best beers I have brewed...I'm more than happy to put it in the sa case swap, but have lowered it down to about 5% alcohol as 6.5 was a tad too much.
> 
> Cheers
> Phil




Hi Phil,
how did the hoppiness work out on this yours? I've just brewed a Saison and am really stoked with it. i ended up with 7.5%. i'm thinking about making another Saison at about 5%. I might make something along the lines of what you've done.

Here's my recipe (pretty much Jamil's Recipe from Brewing Classic Styles). I still can't get over the flavour and perceived sweetness of this beer for a 1002 FG beer.

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.76 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 80.81 % 
0.34 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 5.77 % 
0.34 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 5.77 % 
64.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.80 %] (60 min)Hops 25.4 IBU 
22.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.80 %] (0 min) Hops - 
0.50 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc 
2.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
0.45 kg Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 7.64 % 
1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast #3711) Yeast-Ale 

*Measured Original Gravity:* 1.060 SG *Measured Final Gravity:* 1.002 SG *Actual Alcohol by Vol:* 7.57 % 

Cheers,
Al


----------



## Effect

A3k said:


> Hi Phil,
> how did the hoppiness work out on this yours? I've just brewed a Saison and am really stoked with it. i ended up with 7.5%. i'm thinking about making another Saison at about 5%. I might make something along the lines of what you've done.
> 
> Here's my recipe (pretty much Jamil's Recipe from Brewing Classic Styles). I still can't get over the flavour and perceived sweetness of this beer for a 1002 FG beer.
> 
> Ingredients:
> ------------
> Amount Item  Type % or IBU
> 4.76 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 80.81 %
> 0.34 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 5.77 %
> 0.34 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 5.77 %
> 64.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.80 %] (60 min)Hops 25.4 IBU
> 22.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.80 %] (0 min) Hops -
> 0.50 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
> 1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
> 1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc
> 2.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
> 0.45 kg Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 7.64 %
> 1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast #3711) Yeast-Ale
> 
> *Measured Original Gravity:* 1.060 SG *Measured Final Gravity:* 1.002 SG *Actual Alcohol by Vol:* 7.57 %
> 
> Cheers,
> Al



I felt that it was spot on. I think if I did it again, for me that is, I would flavour with the styrian alone or with the saaz. Kept it the same for the case swap but just lower alcohol. It's strange that with such a low fg it still has quite a bit of body...

Cheers
Phil


----------



## luckyeatwell

Put together my first Saison on Sunday.


Summer 09 Saison.
1.8Kg German Pils
1Kg JW Pale Malt
0.25Kg JW Wheat Malt
0.15Kg Simpsons Aereomatic (80EBC)
0.15Kg Simpsons Golden Naked Oats
25g Amarillo, 60 Minutes
25g Saaz, 15 Minutes
20g Styrian Goldings, 0 Minutes

WY_3711

At the end of the day we had in the fermenter 25L @ OG 1037, around 27IBU.

It's started bubbling over night and should start to climb in temp today.

Given the attenuation that others on AHB have been reporting on this strain of yeast, I'm hoping for a FG in the 1000 to 1002 range, and an ABV around 5% after priming. I'm looking forward to this being the first of a few great summer beers.


----------



## Stuster

luckyeatwell said:


> 0.15Kg Simpsons Aereomatic (80EBC)



What's this malt? :huh: 

Otherwise looks a nice recipe. Interested to see how the Amarillo for bittering works.


----------



## luckyeatwell

Aereomatic is a Simpsons specialty malt, Craftbrewer is selling it at the moment, as are others i'm sure. Maybe somehow equivalent / similar to an amber malt ?

It's the first chance I've had to try it (and the Golden Naked Oats).


I like the stonefruit, apricot that Amarillo sometimes shows off and thought it might suit the style of beer. Adding Amarillo for bittering is my attempt to try add the vaugest hint of those flavours in there.


----------



## Mr.Moonshine

Was thinking of putting down a witbier for christmas (thanks to the heat and my lack of an availible fridge meaning I can't make an IPA or something of the sort), but this thread has convinced me that I'm having saison this christmas!
Recipe I knocked up just then (Partial mash) is;

1 x coopers lager kit
1.15kg powells ale malt
1.00kg JW wheat malt
0.50kg JW vienna
0.25kg JW munich

40g EKG @ 60min
30g Saaz @ 30 min

Wyeast 3724 (Belgian saison)

Beersmith gives me an OG of 1.058, and IBU of 34.9 (Which takes into account the bitterness of the coopers lager kit).

Is there anything missing/needing to be added to this? I was considering pitching the smack pack into the wort without a starter, but might make a 1-2l starter just to be sure (only if it's neccessary though). Given the attenuation of these yeasts, is it valid to mash low or should I aim a bit higher?

Cheers,

Mr.Moonshine


----------



## kabooby

I would recommend making a starter, just increases your chances of a good ferment. I would mash lower about 65 if you are using a can of extract. I think cans can have a bit of unfermentable sugars to try and create body.

Kabooby


----------



## Pumpy

Do you have to do a 50C protein rest with a Saison ?


Pumpy


----------



## Stuster

Pumpy said:


> Do you have to do a 50C protein rest with a Saison?



No.

Easy. Ask me another. :icon_cheers: 



luckyeatwell, that sounds like a nice idea with the Amarillo. Might be nice as a First Wort Hop addition. Hmm.


----------



## kabooby

I have been reading through my farmhouse ales book and decided I am going to make an Old style saison. Going to ferment with WLP566 and then add some brett and lacto to sour and give it some more character. A sour refreshing saison for summer :icon_drool2: 

40l batch

7.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 82.35 % 
0.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 5.88 % 
0.50 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 5.88 % 
0.20 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 2.35 % 
40.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [7.90 %] (60 min) Hops 17.5 IBU 
30.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [7.90 %] (30 min) Hops 10.1 IBU 
30.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [7.90 %] (0 min) Hops - 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
20.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
0.30 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 3.53 % 
1 Pkgs Belgian Saison II Ale (White Labs #WLP566) Yeast-Ale 

Kabooby


----------



## Stuster

That sounds delicious, Grant. I wonder if the brett will have worked that quickly though. Might be best for late summer. Does inspire me though. :icon_drool2:


----------



## kabooby

Stuster said:


> That sounds delicious, Grant. I wonder if the brett will have worked that quickly though. Might be best for late summer. Does inspire me though. :icon_drool2:



The lacto will be pretty quick taking care of the sourness. But hoping the brett may come in for late summer.

Kabooby


----------



## Quintrex

kabooby said:


> I have been reading through my farmhouse ales book and decided I am going to make an Old style saison. Going to ferment with WLP566 and then add some brett and lacto to sour and give it some more character. A sour refreshing saison for summer :icon_drool2:



That does sound good, I might have to have a crack at something similar. How much sourness does the lacto add? You'd add that at the start right? what strain of brett are you thinking?

Sorry for all the questions

Nice work

Q


----------



## kabooby

I have a just pitched a Alt/ lacto starter into my experimental Berliner Dunkelweiss. Into 500ml starter went 1 vial Lacto and 1 active slant of an alt yeast. Steeped up the starter to about 2l. The sourness was there after a few days. I poured the clear starter wort out of my flask into a glass before pitching and it tasted great. A very present sourness that was not over the top. This gave me the idea to pitch some into a saison. I just think adding the sourness to a saison will make it so much more refreshing. Probally bordering on a gueze in a way. I will ferment the saison with a saison yeast and some of the lacto culture. As far as brett goes I was thinking both the brett L and Brett C.

I just can't get enough of my sour beers atm.

Kabooby


----------



## Quintrex

kabooby said:


> I have a just pitched a Alt/ lacto starter into my experimental Berliner Dunkelweiss. Into 500ml starter went 1 vial Lacto and 1 active slant of an alt yeast. Steeped up the starter to about 2l. The sourness was there after a few days. I poured the clear starter wort out of my flask into a glass before pitching and it tasted great. A very present sourness that was not over the top. This gave me the idea to pitch some into a saison. I just think adding the sourness to a saison will make it so much more refreshing. Probally bordering on a gueze in a way. I will ferment the saison with a saison yeast and some of the lacto culture. As far as brett goes I was thinking both the brett L and Brett C.
> 
> I just can't get enough of my sour beers atm.
> 
> Kabooby



Ah thats cool.
I was thinking of using brett C. however I've probably been using it for just about everything 'special' i brew lately so I was thinking of mixing it up and using brett L. myself, I just wasn't sure how the flavours would meld with the saison, but maybe I'll just suck it and see.

I'd be more than happy if it ended up like a gueze, the lacto sounds like the go, pedio scares me 

Cheers
Q


----------



## Tony

winkle said:


> Sure looking good Tony, let me know how it turns out



Kegged it on saturday arvo, should be ready to turn down the gas and pour a glass with tonight.

It spent almost 3 months in primary. It was done in 4 weeks but it's been waiting for the kegorator to get going as i wanted to put it on tap.

When i kegged it, it was smooth, with a clean roast character, some sweet to ballance it, dry and a bit tart too.

Fingers crossed its not over carbed. first time i have used my 23 liter corny keg.

Im planning a 4% pale verson now that its heated up. It can just run its course on the floor in the 32 deg garage.

CHeers


----------



## troopa

Bored last weekend so i did a double batch up

10.1kg
75% BB PALE
20% WHEAT
5% Munich 1
and just for the sake of it 100g of malandolin

100g EKG at 60
about 30g saaz at 15 what ever was left in the fridge... 
about 25IBU i think

Split the batch and went one Belgian Saison and one 3056 Bavarian wheat.. i know the wheat is too light on for the style but meh its tasting bloody nice in the fermenter

The Saison is amazing with the clove hit to the nose ... real xmas winner i recon and one ill do again real soon 

Tom


----------



## kabooby

Troopa said:


> Bored last weekend so i did a double batch up
> 
> 10.1kg
> 75% BB PALE
> 20% WHEAT
> 5% Munich 1
> and just for the sake of it 100g of malandolin
> 
> 100g EKG at 60
> about 30g saaz at 15 what ever was left in the fridge...
> about 25IBU i think
> 
> Split the batch and went one Belgian Saison and one 3056 Bavarian wheat.. i know the wheat is too light on for the style but meh its tasting bloody nice in the fermenter
> 
> The Saison is amazing with the clove hit to the nose ... real xmas winner i recon and one ill do again real soon
> 
> Tom



Nice one Troopa, looks like a big Saison

Kabooby


----------



## jbirbeck

I've got a Saison planned:

74% Pils (Ithink I measured the grain a while ago it may be JW Ale)
17% Munich
9% Wheat
Pac Gem to 23 IBU 60 mins
Hallertau 0.5g/l at 15 mins 
Styrian 0.2g/l at 15mins
Saphir 0.5g/l at 0 mins
Styrian 0.2g/l at 0mins

Wyeast 3724

But given the ideal brewing weather in Adelaide at the moment for everything else, I am considering putting this one off to a time when the temp is running a bit higher. I started a tester bacth a few weeks ago with the heat but infection set in after som delays in pitching the yeast <_< 

How important to the flavour and finishing off for 3724 is the higher temp?


----------



## kabooby

Rooting Kings said:


> How important to the flavour and finishing off for 3724 is the higher temp?



I would say very important. This is the dupont strain and they normally finish it off at 30C. This yeast has a tendancy to stall so the increased temp really helps it get racing and finish out.

Kabooby


----------



## Hutch

kabooby said:


> I would say very important. This is the dupont strain and they normally finish it off at 30C. This yeast has a tendancy to stall so the increased temp really helps it get racing and finish out.
> 
> Kabooby


Dupont supposedly carry out a vigorous primary between 30-35deg C, to get most fermentation done quickly. I've read that this is purely for functional reasons, to free up precious primary fermentation space for the next batch. They also transfer to secondary after 5 days to avoid autolysis issues due to such prolonged high temps. I also beleive that they then insist on 6 month conditioning before it is released. Whether this is necessary to clean up after such high ferm temps, I don't know.

I have one going ATM (WY3724) at 27 deg, and it has only shifted 20-odd points in just under a week. Talk about sluggish. I have to say though that it hasn't affected the fermentation profile in the slightest - loads of spicy phenolics going on. I can't stop drinking gravity samples. Not sure if there'll be much left to keg by the time it finishes


----------



## A3k

Hi guys,
i've just made a saison with the French Saison 3711. I'm loving it at the moment and want to make another soon with some changes made.

Has anyone used raw wheat in one of these? If so, does it suit the style? I'm thinking about adding some to my next Saison.
I'm also considering adding some orange, but unsure on that at this stage.


----------



## jbirbeck

Hutch said:


> Dupont supposedly carry out a vigorous primary between 30-35deg C, to get most fermentation done quickly. I've read that this is purely for functional reasons, to free up precious primary fermentation space for the next batch. They also transfer to secondary after 5 days to avoid autolysis issues due to such prolonged high temps. I also beleive that they then insist on 6 month conditioning before it is released. Whether this is necessary to clean up after such high ferm temps, I don't know.
> 
> I have one going ATM (WY3724) at 27 deg, and it has only shifted 20-odd points in just under a week. Talk about sluggish. I have to say though that it hasn't affected the fermentation profile in the slightest - loads of spicy phenolics going on. I can't stop drinking gravity samples. Not sure if there'll be much left to keg by the time it finishes



I may let the chiller chill down to about 30-35ish then pitch a big starter and let it run like the wind. The yeast activity should keep the temp up even if the weather won't. I've waited too long to get one of these down...


----------



## Hutch

Rooting Kings said:


> I may let the chiller chill down to about 30-35ish then pitch a big starter and let it run like the wind. The yeast activity should keep the temp up even if the weather won't. I've waited too long to get one of these down...


Sound like the right thing to do - pitching in the mid 30's, though I'm not sure if the yeast is vigorous enough to sustain this temp, unless you tuck it in to bed with a hot water bottle, and a few blankets :lol: 
What a lazy yeast!


----------



## A3k

Hi RK,
I've got some Gen0 French Saison 3711 if you want some. That fermented out in about a week, starting at 20C finishing at 24C. OG:1062 FG:1002 (doesn't seem like 1002).
Seems like a less hassle yeast.
Never tried 3724, so can't compare flavours at all.

Anyway, let me know if you want some. Probably too far to drive for you though as i live just south of the City.

Cheers,
Al


----------



## kabooby

Unmalted wheat would be fine

Kabooby


----------



## Pumpy

I uderstood Saison Dupont after the primary fermentationeven if it has not fully attenuated ,they just bottle it in the champers bottles and allow six weeks for it to finish off in the bottle that way its nice and fizzy am I right or wrong ?

Pumpy :unsure:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Damn damn damn - this'll teach me to read more than one thing before I go interfering with perfectly good fermentations.


I accidentally made a saison - it was originally supposed to be a Coopers Sparkling clone(ish) and was the BIAB beer we brewed at G&G on the 14th. I took the cube home to ferment and the next day lobbed in my carefully cultured up coopers yeast starter... and then about an hour later noticed that my 3724 starter seemed to be in the wrong place.... 

I cursed for a while and then thought... hang on.. this might be OK. Coopers is a simple grain bill, the beer was brewed to be very dry.. and on looking at the recipe I used... its not far off what I would have come up with for a saison anyway

85% JW pale ale
7% JW wheat
6% cane sugar
2% special B

It was originally a 1.047 wort with an intended 2% cane sugar... but to convert it to the saison I pushed up to 1.051 by adding a litre of sugar syrup boiled with spices after the ferment had been going for a few days. Sugars totaled out to 6% with a little corriander, cardamon, black pepper, an anise star and some orange zest. only about 11-12g of spice altogether. Didn't wat to go over the top.

But it did what everyone has said in this thread... went super slow. After 11days it was only down to 1.019 and that was with most of it at 26-27C - and it failed to budge even a titch when I pushed up the temp and swirled etc etc. Now after reading this I guess I was being way way too hasty.. but I pitched it an active starter of Nottingham to get it to move along.

Now 5 days later its up to 29C, down to 1.008, just starting to clear up to a lovely orange colour and the samples are tasting pretty damn good. So its no disaster.. but I wish I had read this thread a week or two ago. Hell I was thinking about tossing some drying enzymes into it!! I guess it'll drop another point or so and that'll be it, especially when its got a couple of % of a crystal malt in there.

Coopers Sparkling Saison ... I reckon its gonna be a good one.

TB


----------



## beers

Thirsty Boy said:


> Now after reading this I guess I was being way way too hasty.. but I pitched it an active starter of Nottingham to get it to move along.



On the Jamil Saison podcast Chris White OK'ed adding a second yeast to help the Saison yeast finish out.


----------



## Hutch

I gave a sample of half-fermented 3724 Saison to a few fellow beer-snobs, and the general concencus was that I could easily carb it and drink it now, in spite of the gravity sitting somewhere in the mid 1.020's. The residual sweetness seemed well balanced by the spicy aromatics.

Incidentally, my recipe was:

80% W. Pils
13% W. Munich 1
5% W. Wheat
2% W. Caramunich
Bittered to 28 IBUs with NZ Styrian Goldings (FWH), EKG and Czech Saaz.
CaSO4 to >50ppm Ca
OG 1.045

I was shooting for a low OG (at the very lower end for the style) to result in a quaffing beer, much as Saison was brewed back in ye olden days. This was a double batch, split between WY3724 (Belgian) and WY3711 (French). Will be good to compare, as both yeasts seem to get rave reviews in this thread. The 3711 didn't need much TLC, finishing around 1.002 in a week at 21-22 degrees. I have the 3724 at 27 deg, and it is moving along very slowly. Would possibly head the advice next time and crank it up to >30deg for at least a week.

Looking forward to a blind tasting/comparison early in the new year :icon_drool2: 
Hutch.


----------



## jayse

I read through this thread a couple times now and thought I'd summarise the info I have gathered.

Firsty the extremely high attenuation for the style would seem not just to do with the yeast having high attenuation but mashing regimes are always done to insure maxium attenuation, even close to 100% has been quoted but 90-95 is common.
A simple lower temp mash, single infusion seems pretty common, what does farmhouse ales say about the mashing of saison?

Secondly it would seem even though these beers are finishing down around 1.002-1.008 there can still be a sense of sweetness left and it would seem the bitterness must be fairly high to get the right balance, dryness and finish.
40 ibu looks about right for the ussual gravities.

The malt looks to be pretty simple with pils malt mostly and most people using munich malt only using small amounts.
There are a lot in the thread with saisons made to around 1.040, didn't see to many reports in detail how they come up but would assume a bigger chunck of munich malt would work well in those perhaps, could be wrong and interested to hear thoughts on that.

Hops as said 40 IBU looks good for most, at the very least it needs to have more bitterness then you would expect a beer finishing that low would need, hop flavour is very important with stryian goldings, saaz and hallertau seeming to be the most widely used/liked.
Some indication that fruity new world hops would not work aswell as you may think in this beer, around .75g/L at 20-15mins and same again at flame out or even dry hop, I presume this beer would work well enough without flameout additions but needs the 20min one.

From my gatherings it looks like the no additional spices is the way to go.
This seasonal strains sound great with the quicker turn around and get some great wraps, but 3724 is the most common but can take quite a long while to reach the end even at high temps.

Anyway with all of that I best go make one, I am gathering ale malt should work well in this lower gravity interpretation many people are making here.
I might make one of each with BB galaxy for the big one.
I was wanting to use a new zealand hallertau whole flowers but it seems these may take over the fruity characters you want from the yeast.
I will see what hops I end up with at the brewshop, lucky dip maybe :unsure:


----------



## warrenlw63

jayse said:


> what does farmhouse ales say about the mashing of saison?



Jayse from reading Farmhouse Ales most of the relevant brewers seem to go for multi step mashes. That being said it seems to be the way for a lot of Belgian Brewers. I've done Saisons both ways and to be honest it will finish dry either way. Personally I think the yeast does the bulk of the work.

For me the nicest attempts have come from using just pilsner malt and a small percentage of wheat usually unmalted or some bourghul. Any Euro/British hops combos work well.

Warren -


----------



## beers

A3k said:


> Hi guys,
> i've just made a saison with the French Saison 3711. I'm loving it at the moment and want to make another soon with some changes made.



I started a Saison with this yeast last night (OG 1052, 30IBU, 80% Pils, 10% Munich, 10% Wheat, no spices). If the smell from the yeast packet is anything to go by it should be a cracker.. To me it seemed to smell less spicy & less phenolic than Dupont, with a sherbety lemony tinge to it, sort of reminded me of the smell of a Lambic.


----------



## A3k

beers said:


> I started a Saison with this yeast last night (OG 1052, 30IBU, 80% Pils, 10% Munich, 10% Wheat, no spices). If the smell from the yeast packet is anything to go by it should be a cracker.. To me it seemed to smell less spicy & less phenolic than Dupont, with a sherbety lemony tinge to it, sort of reminded me of the smell of a Lambic.




Hi Beers,
What's your hopping schedule going to be?


----------



## beers

A3k said:


> Hi Beers,
> What's your hopping schedule going to be?



It's already done  

I went for something a little left of centre & bittered with Nelson Sauvin, & finished it with 10g of both Saaz D & Nelson Sauvin at 0 mins (actually steeped in the fermentor before emptying the cube in)


----------



## Stuster

That yeast does have a really strong lemony smell to it, beers. 

Interested to see how it works with those hops. :unsure:


----------



## luckyeatwell

Thought I might contribute my findings from using WY-3711.

I started with a 1037 OG wort consisting of:

50% Pils Malt
25% JW Pale Malt
10% JW Wheat Malt
10% Simpsons Naked Oats
5% Simpsons Areomatic Malt
XXg Amarillo @ 60Minutes
XXg Cz Saaz @ 14 Minutes

Mashed with a double infusion, 50 Deg.C then 65 Deg.C.

Can't quite remember my hopping schedule but the plan was for 30 IBU.

Pitched the yeast straight from the pack without a starter.

It finished in under a week, with a temp profile of starting @ 18-20 and stepping up after a day to 23, 25 the next day and probably got to 28 by the end of the ferment.

At bottling it smelt strongly of bubble-gum, phenolic sort of sweetness and tasted pretty much the same with a FG of 1003. Should be close to 4.5% after priming in the bottle to 3 volumes.

It had been in the bottle for all of 3 days when I opened one to try. There seemed to be quite a bit of yeast sediment so I assumed it may have carbed as quick as it feremented in primary - It was carbed a bit (perfect carb for an ordinary bitter).

Taste out of the bottle half-carbed was actually very nice. quite fruty with maybe a bit of clove, but also a bit tart and it is difficult to determine where the tartness starts before the bitterness picks up at the end. By no means is it too bitter.

The alcohol & phenolics were not hot or harsh for the given feremet temp (as I've had occur with my first attempt at a belgian dubbel) and cold from the fridge these phenolic fruity flavours are quite tame.

I'm not sure the specialty grains from Simpsons are worth their use in this beer, their complexity seems lost amongst the yeast derived flavours - though time in the bottle may help to make them more apparent. Base malts alone would likely make a very nice beer.

Cheers,

Lucky.


----------



## kabooby

Pumpy said:


> I uderstood Saison Dupont after the primary fermentationeven if it has not fully attenuated ,they just bottle it in the champers bottles and allow six weeks for it to finish off in the bottle that way its nice and fizzy am I right or wrong ?
> 
> Pumpy :unsure:



Hey mate, Dupont ferment really warm around 30C. And the beer will go close to full attenuation. They talk about transfering to secondary to prevent autolisys at high temps but by the time they bottle I rekon it would be done. There is talk that the dupont strain is actually a blend of several yeast strains, one of which may even be a type of brett. The strain we get from Wyeast and whitelabs is the dominant strain from the dupont yeast. I guess it would be to hard to maintain the correct balance of the strains. The bottles are stored on thier side for about 6 weeks to condition before leaving the brewery. This will keep the cork wet and also add a slight cork flavour to the beer. 

You could try bottling early, imo you would want to be pretty sure what your fg is going to be other wise you will have bottle bombs. Safer to let it finish and bottle with some sugar. 

Kabooby


----------



## Thirsty Boy

sounds like a saison with 3724 might be a good contender for doing a forced fermentation test at the start.

make an extra 500ml starter and pitch (the yeast only) that into a few hundred ml of your wort.. keep it really warm till it stops. Heaps of yeast and hot temps should get it completely done well before the main fermentation.. then you know the "worst case scenario" for your FG


----------



## mikem108

re: Wyeast 3711
I've made my latest brew with this yeast also and was going to , according to my plan, add some dextrose at right about today in the fermentation process, but this was to add some dryness when assuming use of some of the more cantankerous Saison yeasts, however the 3711 is fermenting like a demon and may finish off plenty dry anyway. My question is do I add the 300gms of dextrose as planned?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

mikem108 said:


> re: Wyeast 3711
> I've made my latest brew with this yeast also and was going to , according to my plan, add some dextrose at right about today in the fermentation process, but this was to add some dryness when assuming use of some of the more cantankerous Saison yeasts, however the 3711 is fermenting like a demon and may finish off plenty dry anyway. My question is do I add the 300gms of dextrose as planned?



dextrose doesn't add dryness - it adds gravity without adding unfermentables. So adding your dextrose will make your beer stronger, but will not change the "dryness" in any way shape or form.

If its going to be strong enough for you without the dextrose.. leave it out. If you want the alcohol, put it in. Thats the only difference it will make really.


----------



## A3k

Thirsty Boy said:


> dextrose doesn't add dryness - it adds gravity without adding unfermentables. So adding your dextrose will make your beer stronger, but will not change the "dryness" in any way shape or form.
> 
> If its going to be strong enough for you without the dextrose.. leave it out. If you want the alcohol, put it in. Thats the only difference it will make really.



I agree with Thirsty Boy. Was just about to reply with the same thing.

Edit: Can I take some credit for the response?


----------



## A3k

i decided on making a 4.5 - 5% Saison, as i'm loving my 7.5% one on tap too much and needed one i can smash a bit more sensibly.
I'm using 3711 which dropped to 1002, which means bugger all grains required to make a double batch.

Possibly over complicated, but oh well. Ended up with a pretty cool colour.

*Estimated Original Gravity:* 1.038 SG
*Estimated Final Gravity:* 1.002 SG
*Estimated Color:* 5.0 SRM 
*Bitterness:* 25.9 IBU
*Estimated Alcohol by Volume:* 4.71 %

2.50 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy 38.46 %
2.50 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) 38.46 %
0.60 kg Wheat, Flaked 9.23 %
0.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) 7.69 %
0.40 kg Caraamber (Weyermann) 6.15 %

30.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) 11.8 IBU
10.00 gm Simcoe [12.20 %] (60 min) 9.1 IBU
30.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (20 min) 3.6 IBU
20.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (10 min) 1.3 IBU
16.00 gm Goldings, East Kent (Cube Hopped) [4.80 %] 

1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min)Misc
2.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min)Misc
4.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min)Misc
8.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min)Misc

1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast #3711)Yeast-Ale

Cheers,
Al


----------



## dr K

that is amazing..nearly 95% attenutaion, even with a highly attenuative strain like 3711 you are looking 77-83% tops.
well done.

K


----------



## A3k

dr K said:


> that is amazing..nearly 95% attenutaion, even with a highly attenuative strain like 3711 you are looking 77-83% tops.
> well done.
> 
> K




Hi Dr K,
I haven't fermented this one yet, just mashed it. But the last one i did on this yeast went from about 1060 (or 1065) to 1002. i was shocked.
I'm pretty sure other people are getting the similar results with this yeast.
Cheers
Al


----------



## Tony

I agree with making a nice lite 4% saison. Something quenching.

here is what i have planned.

Saison lite

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 28.00 Wort Size (L): 28.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.50
Anticipated OG: 1.040 Plato: 10.07
Anticipated EBC: 5.6
Anticipated IBU: 23.2
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
77.8 3.50 kg. Weyermann Premium Pilsner Germany 1.038 3
11.1 0.50 kg. Weyermann Pale Wheat Germany 1.038 4
6.7 0.30 kg. TF Flaked Barley UK 1.034 0
4.4 0.20 kg. Weyermann Carahell Germany 1.035 26

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.50 21.2 40 min.
20.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.50 1.9 5 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison


----------



## Tony

Well folks.... i have to report on my Saison stout.

It has been kegged for a couple weeks now and im working hard not to drink it all at once. 

Its smooth and easy to drink... even for a 7% beer.

It has developed a destict aroma. the yeast and smooth roast malt has combined to give the aroma of brown sugar and sherry, smoke and chocolate. Taste is similar. Its dry but creamy smooth. The alcahol and yeast adds a slight acidity that ballances the malt well. No real hops there..... if they are there well blended with the mass of complex aromas and flavours.

Im very VERY proud of this beer!

cheers


----------



## kabooby

Tony that looks fantastic and the description makes me want one now. Hang on, it's only 7:20  

Kabooby


----------



## Pumpy

kabooby said:


> Hey mate, Dupont ferment really warm around 30C. And the beer will go close to full attenuation. They talk about transfering to secondary to prevent autolisys at high temps but by the time they bottle I rekon it would be done. There is talk that the dupont strain is actually a blend of several yeast strains, one of which may even be a type of brett. The strain we get from Wyeast and whitelabs is the dominant strain from the dupont yeast. I guess it would be to hard to maintain the correct balance of the strains. The bottles are stored on thier side for about 6 weeks to condition before leaving the brewery. This will keep the cork wet and also add a slight cork flavour to the beer.
> 
> You could try bottling early, imo you would want to be pretty sure what your fg is going to be other wise you will have bottle bombs. Safer to let it finish and bottle with some sugar.
> 
> Kabooby



Hey Kabooby now I am going to use that French strain should attenuate Ok
I may not bottle now if it will attenuate well

What temp do you mash at ?
How long will it take to finish 
How long do you store before drinking?
do you use a pressure gaugue on your keg if storing for a few months or is there no need with the French strain ?


----------



## Stuster

dr K said:


> that is amazing..nearly 95% attenutaion, even with a highly attenuative strain like 3711 you are looking 77-83% tops.
> well done.
> 
> K



Dr, I got over 90% attenuation on the batches I used this yeast with. Several other people have commented that it seems to like finishing at 1002.  It's a _really _ attenuative yeast.


----------



## kabooby

Pumpy said:


> Hey Kabooby now I am going to use that French strain should attenuate Ok
> I may not bottle now if it will attenuate well
> 
> What temp do you mash at ?
> How long will it take to finish
> How long do you store before drinking?
> do you use a pressure gaugue on your keg if storing for a few months or is there no need with the French strain ?



- 67C
- I normally start around 20C and let it get up to about 24C. A 1045 beer was down to 1003 in 5 days
- I normally try it after a week and its good. I think it gets better after about 6 weeks but is still good earlier.
- No need to with the french strain. 


I also think this would be a great style for some oak

Kabooby


----------



## A3k

Hey fellas,
my Saison (post 187) has been fermenting for 5 days. It's now down to 1002 as predicted. I'm assuming it's finished as the last few days it hasn't done much and there's no krausen, but i'll leave it until the weekend anyway.

it tastes great out of the sample, and with christmas coming up, i don't think this will get 6weeks to age.

I wonder if this kind of beer can be marketed towards low carb drinkers... I doubt they'd appreciate it though.

Cheers,
Al


----------



## Hutch

A3k said:


> Hey fellas,
> my Saison (post 187) has been fermenting for 5 days. It's now down to 1002 as predicted. I'm assuming it's finished as the last few days it hasn't done much and there's no krausen, but i'll leave it until the weekend anyway.
> 
> it tastes great out of the sample, and with christmas coming up, i don't think this will get 6weeks to age.
> 
> I wonder if this kind of beer can be marketed towards low carb drinkers... I doubt they'd appreciate it though.
> 
> Cheers,
> Al


Hey A3k,
I'm absolutely loving my French batch at the moment (about 4 weeks in the keg), although it's certainly not going to appeal to many mainstream/low-carb drinkers. Most of my fam have tried it, and think it's "interesting", but generally switch back to the house ale/lager pretty quickly.

For mine, it's a sensational yeast, and definitely one I'll brew with again. Slightly peppery, tart and dry, though with some good residual cara/Munich malt sweetness, and some nice spicy phenolics not too OTT. Surprisingly, the hops don't take a back seat either - the Goldings/Saaz combo seems to work well.

As for the Dupont batch, well I'm still waiting for it to finish off (3 weeks in), and I'm growing impatient. I think I'll keg it, let it carb naturally at room temp, and come back to it in the new year. I love the esters, but it's not exactly fast grain to brain.
Hutch.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

My "rushed" batch with the dupont yeast has been cc for a week or so now and its tasting mighty fine - I will be filtering and kegging it probably tomorrow.

Finishing it off with Nottingham seemed to do the trick - down to 1.008-1.007 and I don't think it will get any better than that due to the small amount of crystal malt in the recipe.

So - If you make an Australian Pale ale but change your mind, it turns into a really quite tasty Saison with just the pitch of a poorly labeled starter  and a bit of extra simple sugar.

TB


----------



## jlm

A3k said:


> Hey fellas,
> my Saison (post 187) has been fermenting for 5 days. It's now down to 1002 as predicted. I'm assuming it's finished as the last few days it hasn't done much and there's no krausen, but i'll leave it until the weekend anyway.
> 
> it tastes great out of the sample, and with christmas coming up, i don't think this will get 6weeks to age.
> 
> I wonder if this kind of beer can be marketed towards low carb drinkers... I doubt they'd appreciate it though.
> 
> Cheers,
> Al


Mine got down to 1002 as well. I left it in 2ndry at about 25 for 2 weeks out of laziness more than anything. Tasting pretty good out of the keg straight away, just needs a tad more carb to make it a bit more prickly on the tounge. As said above, lemony, peppery. I even get a little pilsner malt flavour, almost a little sweetness which is amazing for a beer that finished so low.
Interested in fermentation regimes people have used for this yeast. I pitched at about 20, fermented at 21 for 2 days then bought up to 25, mostly because of the beer that was fermenting next to it. I think it could use a bit more phenolic flavour, but certainly have no problems with it atm. I guess when the only experience I've had with this style are Dupont and Beechworths effort, sets the bar a bit high to start with.


----------



## Tony

Im really really impressed with my stout with the 3724. Its really turned into someting special!

I think good things come to those who wait 

Im intersted in the french strain though....... i want to make a pale Saison and get it really REALLY dry.

Im making something to BJCP guidelines while i have a few days off between xmas and new year and going to let it rip at summer temps in the garage with the 3724 belgian strain. I cant beliece how clean theu come out for a 30 deg ferment. Its cleaner than my first kit brew at 24 deg that tasted like fruit punch.

cheers


----------



## A3k

Hutch said:


> Hey A3k,
> although it's certainly not going to appeal to many mainstream/low-carb drinkers.




Yeah i know. i was just jokin as it's probably lower carb than the shite on the market.
I got the same reaction from some of my mates who ususally stick to lagers. Those that like trying nice beers really enjoyed it.

Can't wait to get stuck into this one though. My last one was a cracker and 7.5%. At 4.7%, this one will be more suited for some summer arvo brews. I think this is the first style that i've brewed twice in a row for years.


----------



## jbirbeck

Thirsty Boy said:


> My "rushed" batch with the dupont yeast has been cc for a week or so now and its tasting mighty fine - I will be filtering and kegging it probably tomorrow.
> 
> Finishing it off with Nottingham seemed to do the trick - down to 1.008-1.007 and I don't think it will get any better than that due to the small amount of crystal malt in the recipe.
> 
> So - If you make an Australian Pale ale but change your mind, it turns into a really quite tasty Saison with just the pitch of a poorly labeled starter  and a bit of extra simple sugar.
> 
> TB



I'm actually planning to do this with the next heat wave. Aussie Pale done with Belg Saison.



Tony said:


> Im really really impressed with my stout with the 3724. Its really turned into someting special!
> 
> I think good things come to those who wait
> 
> Im intersted in the french strain though....... i want to make a pale Saison and get it really REALLY dry.
> 
> Im making something to BJCP guidelines while i have a few days off between xmas and new year and going to let it rip at summer temps in the garage with the 3724 belgian strain. I cant beliece how clean theu come out for a 30 deg ferment. Its cleaner than my first kit brew at 24 deg that tasted like fruit punch.
> 
> cheers



I've got one going at the mo, started above 30 and its since dropped down into the mid 20's. I'm hoping today's 42 degs will push it back up to 30 degs...it might need a hot water bottle though.

My plan is to do a split batch of my next Aust pale and do a split between the French Saison, the Belg Saison and other Belg yeast that like higher temps. Finish dry and clean without having to micromanage the fermentation temp.


----------



## kabooby

Rooting Kings said:


> I'm actually planning to do this with the next heat wave. Aussie Pale done with Belg Saison.
> 
> 
> 
> I've got one going at the mo, started above 30 and its since dropped down into the mid 20's. I'm hoping today's 42 degs will push it back up to 30 degs...it might need a hot water bottle though.
> 
> My plan is to do a split batch of my next Aust pale and do a split between the French Saison, the Belg Saison and other Belg yeast that like higher temps. Finish dry and clean without having to micromanage the fermentation temp.



While the yeast will handle those temps, they wont like it when it cools down. They will slow down or even stop and then when it gets warmer they have to try and get going again. It is best to try and keep a stable temp or let the temp rise up slowly during the fermentation.

Kabooby


----------



## jbirbeck

kabooby said:


> While the yeast will handle those temps, they wont like it when it cools down. They will slow down or even stop and then when it gets warmer they have to try and get going again. It is best to try and keep a stable temp or let the temp rise up slowly during the fermentation.
> 
> Kabooby



would love to...walk away for a couple of days leaving the bugger running in an old fridge and damn thing drops temp itself.


----------



## Hutch

kabooby said:


> While the yeast will handle those temps, they wont like it when it cools down. They will slow down or even stop and then when it gets warmer they have to try and get going again. It is best to try and keep a stable temp or let the temp rise up slowly during the fermentation.
> 
> Kabooby


I think there's also an increased risk of autolysis if you ramp the temp up significantly to kick it along. 
Case in point, I had mine (Dupont strain) in the mid-20's for 2 weeks, and it had only dropped 20-odd points, (although it was tasting LOVERLY :wub: ), so I cranked it up to 30 for another week, and noticed a real increase in tangy yeasty "vegemite" flavours towards the end. I'm hoping this will be cleaned up with dex + secondary ferment in the keg. 

I guess there's a good reason why Dupont supposedly get it going fast in the first week with temps in the range 30-35 deg, and transfer it off the trub after a week, to avoid autolysis issues, and free up the primary fermenter.
Temperamental yeast, huh!


----------



## kabooby

Just went to my fridge to give a slant of 3711 to Pumpy and noticed I don't have any.

Must have used the last one thinking I had more there.

Kabooby


----------



## Quintrex

kabooby said:


> I have been reading through my farmhouse ales book and decided I am going to make an Old style saison. Going to ferment with WLP566 and then add some brett and lacto to sour and give it some more character. A sour refreshing saison for summer :icon_drool2:



Did you get around to brewing this yet? I'll be most intrigued to hear any reports.

Cheers
Q


----------



## kabooby

Its conditioning in the keg now. I didn't add any brett, just lacto and the 566 strain. There is a definate sourness but it is not over the top like a gueze. At the moment I think it is a winner, the sourness just adds to the drinkability. I will leave for a few more weeks yet before I start drinking, if I can wait that long  

Kabooby


----------



## A3k

Hey guys,
I just tapped the keg of my low alcohol Saison (4.7%) and i've gotta say i'm bloody happy with it.
Definitely a smooth summer quencher.
I had one of my mainstream drinkers around lastnight (usually drinks coopers pale) and he preferred it to the CPA which made me pretty happy.

OG: 1038 FG: 1001 pretty much as predicted.

There's a reasonable amount of hops in the recipe but the flavour is very subtle with the yeast flavours going on. They complement each other perfectly.

Anyway, i think i've talked my beer up enough for now.
Cheers,
Al


----------



## chadjaja

Thanks mate.

I have a wyeast 3472 to use and I think i'll make your lower alc one and a higher drier version too and put it away for a while. Perfect time of the year to be making saisons thats for sure! Damn its warm!

Everyone seems to have a differing opinion on mash temp for these though. I really want a true dry one for the bigger beer and will def add some sort of sugar or clear candi syrup.


----------



## A3k

chadjaja said:


> Thanks mate.
> 
> I have a wyeast 3472 to use and I think i'll make your lower alc one and a higher drier version too and put it away for a while. Perfect time of the year to be making saisons thats for sure! Damn its warm!
> 
> Everyone seems to have a differing opinion on mash temp for these though. I really want a true dry one for the bigger beer and will def add some sort of sugar or clear candi syrup.




Yeah it's been pretty in Adelaide too. 
Did you mean Belgian Saison 3724?
One thing to note if you're making it with 3724 is to adjust for the lower attenuation of that yeast. I got down to 1001, but I used 3711 which is a sugar eating freak. But it'd end up at about 4% if you get 80% attenuation which would be okay anyway.

As for mash temp, mine was at 65 to 66 degrees from memory, but I don't really have an opinion on this as i'm not a Saison Guru by any means. Maybe go 63ish if you wan't a really dry one.

Cheers,
Al


----------



## A3k

hehe, just read my thread again... Was meant to read pretty hot in adeleade. I'm not a complete weirdo


----------



## kabooby

kabooby said:


> Its conditioning in the keg now. I didn't add any brett, just lacto and the 566 strain. There is a definate sourness but it is not over the top like a gueze. At the moment I think it is a winner, the sourness just adds to the drinkability. I will leave for a few more weeks yet before I start drinking, if I can wait that long
> 
> Kabooby



I left this to condition for a few weeks and it has a definate tart, tang to it from the lacto. Maybe a little too much. 

Conclusion: For me lacto on it's own (with a sach strain) will produce sourness but might be a bit tangy. I think I will add some brett and put it away for 6 months

Kabooby


----------



## neonmeate

kabooby said:


> I left this to condition for a few weeks and it has a definate tart, tang to it from the lacto. Maybe a little too much.
> 
> Conclusion: For me lacto on it's own (with a sach strain) will produce sourness but might be a bit tangy. I think I will add some brett and put it away for 6 months
> 
> Kabooby


how much hops did you use in that kabooby and how strong is it? i thought lacto didnt work very well with bitterness over 20 or alc over 5 or something


----------



## Quintrex

neonmeate said:


> how much hops did you use in that kabooby and how strong is it? i thought lacto didnt work very well with bitterness over 20 or alc over 5 or something



It's meant to be fairly well suppressed by hops i thought. On a related note, Neonmeate, I enjoyed your funky lambicised supersaison so much that I've made something v. similar to yours, although dropped the ibu's a little. Looking forward to it if it turns out anywhere near as nice as yours.

Cheers
Q


----------



## neonmeate

cool i guess the beauty of chucking random dregs in like that is that every beer will turn out different too.

still havent had your "touch of fruit" but will give it a go shortly


----------



## kabooby

neonmeate said:


> how much hops did you use in that kabooby and how strong is it? i thought lacto didnt work very well with bitterness over 20 or alc over 5 or something



IBU: 27 and abv 6%

The lacto was active and added with the primary yeast so it had a few days to work before the alc got to high. 

Kabooby


----------



## neonmeate

kabooby said:


> IBU: 27 and abv 6%
> 
> The lacto was active and added with the primary yeast so it had a few days to work before the alc got to high.
> 
> Kabooby



aha that's how you do it. will give that a go onea these days


----------



## Quintrex

Racked it to glass and added oude beersel (i think) dregs just before, it's fairly sweet without the bitterness to balance it, looking forward to seeing how it develops.

Cheers
Q



neonmeate said:


> cool i guess the beauty of chucking random dregs in like that is that every beer will turn out different too.
> 
> still havent had your "touch of fruit" but will give it a go shortly


----------



## Pumpy

i have just had 7 schooners of Saison made with Kaboobys special yeast he gave me, he blended it himself , ( I reckon he brews some awesome Saison's) it went down to zero and it was Jamils grain bill with Doc's spice bill and I regulary buy the Saison Dupont and I love this brew it is so drinkable the only trouble is I am on a health kick with the missus and have to do a 45 min walk tonight ( more like a stumble)


Saison is a totally different beer but highly drinkable you either love it or hate it 

Pumpy


----------



## Pumpy

I love Saison it is the best beer I nearly ever drank


----------



## kabooby

Me too Pumpy, me too!

One of my favourite styles

Kabooby


----------



## Pumpy

Pumpy said:


> i have just had 7 schooners of Saison made with Kaboobys special yeast he gave me, he blended it himself , ( I reckon he brews some awesome Saison's) it went down to zero and it was Jamils grain bill with Doc's spice bill and I regulary buy the Saison Dupont and I love this brew it is so drinkable the only trouble is I am on a health kick with the missus and have to do a 45 min walk tonight ( more like a stumble)
> 
> 
> Saison is a totally different beer but highly drinkable you either love it or hate it
> 
> Pumpy



I agree kabooby


----------



## WSC

I'm pushed for time and need beer in hot weather so thought I would try a saison. 

I love the idea of brewing in summer in QLD in the shed with no temp control! This beer is made for the climate at my place.

Here is what I did:
Morgans Wheat Tin
400g Pale Crystal Steep
1kg LDME
20g of Tettnang - 30 mins
20g of Hallertauer - 10mins
24L in total
Est OG 1040
Finish at 1002
5.5% or so.

Pitched 3724 at 30degrees

It's in the shed and this morning was going great guns.

Currently well over 30degrees in the shed, more like 35.

I will let your know how it goes. I will be trying a stout on the yeast cake next.


----------



## KoNG

WSC said:


> I'm pushed for time
> 
> 
> Pitched 3724



you might have a bit of trouble getting the second line to agree with the first line


----------



## WSC

I thought 3724 was OK at 30+ degrees?


----------



## chadjaja

I've got a saison in the plans next and I too have 3724 but I think the point is ........its notorious for getting a stuck ferment and taking 4+ weeks to ferment out to FG.

I was planning on a ferment of the mid 20's and then pushing it to near 30 later on.


----------



## Hutch

WSC said:


> I thought 3724 was OK at 30+ degrees?


Initially it goes great guns, but then chugs along knocking off the last 10 or so points.
It also seems to take a little while cleaning up after itself (in my very limited experience).

In terms of grain to brain, I reckon the 3711 French is a better option. A little dryer than 3724, but equally drinkable, perhaps even more so in the hot weather.


----------



## WSC

I remember what I was thinking now.

Thought I would do it with 3711, then went to buy 3711 but it is not available, so ended up with the 3724.

I really needed the strains that could handle up to 35 degrees.


----------



## Quintrex

WSC said:


> I remember what I was thinking now.
> 
> Thought I would do it with 3711, then went to buy 3711 but it is not available, so ended up with the 3724.
> 
> I really needed the strains that could handle up to 35 degrees.



3711 does not cope with the heat anything like 3724.... 3724 is sluggish, but good choice I say. Farmhouse is a cracker strain as well, when you can get it.


----------



## WSC

Quintrex said:


> 3711 does not cope with the heat anything like 3724.... 3724 is sluggish, but good choice I say. Farmhouse is a cracker strain as well, when you can get it.



This is good to know, hopefully it will be worth the wait.


----------



## beers

Stuster said:


> That yeast does have a really strong lemony smell to it, beers.
> 
> Interested to see how it works with those hops. :unsure:



Keg of this one just blew & I miss it already  Hops were obviously not the best for the "typical" style (not as earthy & floral), & probably a little OTT, but I liked how the grapey like flavours of the NS played with the yeast esters, combined with the dry edge made it a great refreshing summer beer IMO.
I'm thinking of ordering another lot of the 3711 yeast & re-brewing it again next weekend.. will probably cut the NS 50/50 with something a little more traditional, or maybe even some Citra, just to take a little bit of the sharp edge off it. I might even try re-pitching the yeast into a Black Saison IPA  
Man, I love that 3711.. a new favorite


----------



## Tony

I ran the 3724 at aboout 27 deg for the first couple days of frenzied activity and then held it at 30 deg and above for the next 4 weeks.

The beers ended up supurb!

Edit: 27... not 17


----------



## kabooby

I just secured a new packet of French Saison 3711 and some naked oats :super: 

I think I might have to make another Saison.

OG 1044 FG 1002
93% Pilsner malt
7% Naked oats
Hopped to 28 IBU with Hallertaur flowers (have heaps)
3711 French Saison

I haven't used the Naked oats before so I am loking forward to see what they contribute

Kabooby


----------



## luckyeatwell

Hey Kabooby,

Keen to hear what you think of the naked oats with the 3711 in a light saison.

I've got nothing to make comparison to with the one I brewed with 10% Simpsons Naked Oats, other than the fact it is quite likely my best AG recipe to date - enjoyed by everyone in the family who tried it over Christmas. 

Keeping it "small" (OG1037) made sure it was a good summer session beer @ 4.5% and while I thought it had finished around 1002 or 3, I have a suspicion the 3711 may have finished off those last few points in the bottle as it was very highly carbed.

Cheers,

Lucky.


----------



## kabooby

Will do Lucky,

I am hoping to get a nice silky mouthfeel with a hint of caramel from the oats. That's what the malt description says anyway  

Kabooby


----------



## WSC

WSC said:


> I'm pushed for time and need beer in hot weather so thought I would try a saison.
> 
> I love the idea of brewing in summer in QLD in the shed with no temp control! This beer is made for the climate at my place.
> 
> Here is what I did:
> Morgans Wheat Tin
> 400g Pale Crystal Steep
> 1kg LDME
> 20g of Tettnang - 30 mins
> 20g of Hallertauer - 10mins
> 24L in total
> Est OG 1040
> Finish at 1002
> 5.5% or so.
> 
> Pitched 3724 at 30degrees
> 
> It's in the shed and this morning was going great guns.
> 
> Currently well over 30degrees in the shed, more like 35.
> 
> I will let your know how it goes. I will be trying a stout on the yeast cake next.



This has gotten down to 1010 in nearly 2 weeks, will see if it come down another 5 or 6 points in the next week or so. It cooled off a bit for a few days but should be up to 30degrees again now.

Tasting pretty good out of the hydro sampler.

Think I will up the hops next time a bit.


----------



## WSC

KoNG said:


> you might have a bit of trouble getting the second line to agree with the first line




You are right about this yeast going like the clappers and then slowing.

It got to 1.010 no worries but is moving very slowly now.......and it's over 30 degrees......c'mon......patience is not a virtue of mine


----------



## chadjaja

Mine with 3724 has been in a week and its already passed the mark where Its prone to stick at 1035 and down to 1020 so far. I've had mine at about 26-27 degrees so far and might push it up higher in the second and third weeks to get it down. One thing though, it tasted bloody awesome in the samples i've had so far!


----------



## WSC

chadjaja said:


> Mine with 3724 has been in a week and its already passed the mark where Its prone to stick at 1035 and down to 1020 so far. I've had mine at about 26-27 degrees so far and might push it up higher in the second and third weeks to get it down. One thing though, it tasted bloody awesome in the samples i've had so far!




Mine didn't stick at all, just taking some time to work though the last little bit. Think I will carb with half normal sugar, as I have heard it may keep going a bit in the bottle. Tastes and smells awesome!


----------



## chadjaja

Its actually been pretty hard to keep this brew as warm as I want even upstairs in a hot house on hot days. A few +30 days ahead here in Melb to help the cause coming up and I just tested the hydro sample just now for correction and it was 29 so thats a good start.

Still going very slowly but as expected into the third week and dropping very slowly. Mashed fairly low so I'm hoping for it to go right down and give me a nice dry saison. This two week wait is murder, it smells great already and looking at it every day is just a tease.


----------



## beers

Kegged this one on Thursday. Samples were tasting great..

Rye Saison 

Ingredients

3500.00 gm Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.5 EBC) Grain 70.00 % 
1000.00 gm Rye Malt (9.3 EBC) Grain 20.00 % 
500.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 10.00 % 
7.50 gm Citra [11.00 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 10.0 IBU 
7.50 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.50 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 10.4 IBU 
20.00 gm Saaz D [5.40 %] (15 min) Hops (Cube) 6.7 IBU 
10.00 gm Citra [11.00 %] (0 min) Hops - 
10.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.50 %] (0 min) Hops - 
1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711-PC) Yeast-Ale 


Beer Profile

Measured Original Gravity: 1.051 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.53 % 
Bitterness: 25.8 IBU
Est Color: 9.8 EBC


----------



## WSC

WSC said:


> You are right about this yeast going like the clappers and then slowing.
> 
> It got to 1.010 no worries but is moving very slowly now.......and it's over 30 degrees......c'mon......patience is not a virtue of mine



Finally bottled this one last week. Should be good. Tasted nice and dry out of the fermenter.

Pitched a stout with choc grains and fuggles on top of the yeast cake.....now the temp has dropped so will be a long wait.....


----------



## chadjaja

What was your FG?

Mine is at 1009 ish after nearly a month but the temps have dropped a LOT since the start of fermentation so I'll have to warm it up myself I think to finish it off. I'm using the Belgian strain though.

Still a few weeks away from being done I'd still think as I originally planned a 5-6 week ferment.


----------



## WSC

chadjaja said:


> What was your FG?
> 
> Mine is at 1009 ish after nearly a month but the temps have dropped a LOT since the start of fermentation so I'll have to warm it up myself I think to finish it off. I'm using the Belgian strain though.
> 
> Still a few weeks away from being done I'd still think as I originally planned a 5-6 week ferment.



Mine got down to 1005. I primed at normal levels as I have heard it will still drop a bit in the bottle.

My coopers tallies should be right with the pressure. On a side note I dropped one full of beer from about a meter an to concrete and it didn't even break, while bottling.


----------



## Melthar

A batch I brewed recently with 3724 (Belgian strain) stopped at 1010 (from 1068) after about 3 days, and has been sitting there for around 3 weeks now without budging. Temps have really cooled off here, so that wouldn't help, but I was expecting a 1 or 2 point drop each week, hard to tell whether it's safe to bottle.


----------



## Pumpy

Melthar said:


> A batch I brewed recently with 3724 (Belgian strain) stopped at 1010 (from 1068) after about 3 days, and has been sitting there for around 3 weeks now without budging. Temps have really cooled off here, so that wouldn't help, but I was expecting a 1 or 2 point drop each week, hard to tell whether it's safe to bottle.



You have done well Melthar1010 is good yes its safe to bottle 

Pumpy


----------



## WSC

Pumpy said:


> You have done well Melthar1010 is good yes its safe to bottle
> 
> Pumpy



That's for sure mine was only 1045 to start with.


----------



## sirotilc

I'm going to try another Saison this weekend, and after reading "Farmhouse Ales" a while back I was inspired to try a Spelt Saison. I'll use:
66% JW Pilsner
33% Rolled (raw) Spelt

I"m a BIABer, and given that the spelt should already be gelatinized probably just go for a 66deg infusion mash.

As for hopping, I have some NB, Styrian Goldings and Saaz on hand. For a 23 L batch, I was thinking:
20g NB @ 60 min
15g SG @ 30 min
20g Saaz @ 30 min
15g SG @ 10 min
30g Saaz @ 10min

I'll adjust the hops to about ~30-35 IBU once I'm in front of beersmith, but does anyone have an opinion on that hopping schedule? 

Then hit it with the French Saison - I would have liked to have tried the Farmhouse Ale which is supposed to be from Brasserie de Blaugies who produce Saison De L'Epeautre. I only have slants of the French Saison though, but I think that the lemony yeast characters should work well with what I think the spelt will taste like (I love spelt bread/pasta etc.).

Comments/criticisms??


----------



## Stuster

I like it. I made something very much along those lines but with the Farmhouse ale yeast. I think the French Saison should work fine. Hops look good. I've used that combination for a saison before and thought it worked well. The one thing I'd change if I were brewing it would be to push those hop additions closer to the end of the boil, maybe at 15 and 0. But it'll work nicely as it is as well.


----------



## WSC

WSC said:


> Finally bottled this one last week. Should be good. Tasted nice and dry out of the fermenter.
> 
> Pitched a stout with choc grains and fuggles on top of the yeast cake.....now the temp has dropped so will be a long wait.....




The stout is tasting brilliant from the fermenter. I think this yeast will be my new summer (which lasts for 8 to 9 months here) house yeast. Going to have to play around with other styles and see how it goes. I do like not having to worry about the fridge or keeping the beer at 20 degrees.


----------



## warrenlw63

This is my latest... I did a double batch and split it. Half went straight to a carboy to clear and the other half was chapitalized with 500g each of dextrose and caramelised raw sugar (1kg total).

Yeast chewed it all up in around 5 days. Then I racked to another carboy to clear and age for a bit longer.

So I should have a batch of 5.5% Regular Saison and 7% Super Saison. I shall be interested to try them side by side and note the differences. I'm guessing I'll like the super version better! :icon_drunk: 

Here's the recipe;

Saison Prenez et Lourd

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 45.00 Wort Size (L): 45.00
Total Grain (kg): 9.65
Anticipated OG: 1.052 Plato: 12.93
Anticipated EBC: 15.2
Anticipated IBU: 31.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 79 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
31.1 3.00 kg. Bairds Pearl Great Britain 1.038 5
31.1 3.00 kg. TF Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt UK 1.037 7
20.7 2.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
10.4 1.00 kg. Bourghul Turkey 1.034 4
5.2 0.50 kg. Weyermann Caraamber Germany 1.037 93
1.0 0.10 kg. Dingemans Biscuit Malt Belgium 1.035 50
0.5 0.05 kg. JWM Amber Malt Australia 1.038 59

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
25.00 g. Northdown Pellet 9.50 17.2 60 min.
30.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.20 12.4 90 min.
20.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.20 2.0 15 min.
20.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.20 0.0 0 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.00 Oz Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse Ale




Warren -


----------



## Quintrex

Warren, is that 3726 from the starter I gave you? If so, damn! that's a long time ago, damn fine yeast though.

Hope they bring it out again soon.

Save me a glass of the super saison ? 

Q


----------



## warrenlw63

Yah Q. It's still the old trouper... Even when rook's not blowing it up :lol: 

Robust little strain. Leave it in the fridge for 7 months and it fires up overnight !

I'll put aside a bottle of the regular and rocket fuel for you if you wish.

Warren -


----------



## glennheinzel

I'm looking to make the following saison tomorrow...

Grandma's Farm Ale MkII
Size: 19.0 L
Efficiency: 70.0%
Original Gravity: 1.053
Terminal Gravity: 1.008
Alcohol: 5.87%
Bitterness: 29.1

Ingredients:
3.5 kg Joe White Pilsener Malt
0.5 kg Torrified Wheat
0.5 kg Simpsons Golden Naked Oats
0.5 kg Wey Rye Malt

20.0 g B Saaz (7.9%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
7.0 g B Saaz (7.9%) - added during boil, boiled 20.0 min
7.0 g Nelson Sauvin (11.5%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
7.0 g Nelson Sauvin (11.5%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min

Wyeast WY3711 French Saison WY3711

I am open to changing the late hopping if anyone thinks that I'm making a mistake.


----------



## WSC

WSC said:


> The stout is tasting brilliant from the fermenter. I think this yeast will be my new summer (which lasts for 8 to 9 months here) house yeast. Going to have to play around with other styles and see how it goes. I do like not having to worry about the fridge or keeping the beer at 20 degrees.




Had a sneaky taste of the Saison Stout.......can definately recommend this yeast for a stout, finishes nice and dry, The great thing is I just dropped the stout on the first Saison yeast cake, too easy.


----------



## WSC

Rukh said:


> I'm looking to make the following saison tomorrow...
> 
> Grandma's Farm Ale MkII
> Size: 19.0 L
> Efficiency: 70.0%
> Original Gravity: 1.053
> Terminal Gravity: 1.008
> Alcohol: 5.87%
> Bitterness: 29.1
> 
> Ingredients:
> 3.5 kg Joe White Pilsener Malt
> 0.5 kg Torrified Wheat
> 0.5 kg Simpsons Golden Naked Oats
> 0.5 kg Wey Rye Malt
> 
> 20.0 g B Saaz (7.9%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
> 7.0 g B Saaz (7.9%) - added during boil, boiled 20.0 min
> 7.0 g Nelson Sauvin (11.5%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
> 7.0 g Nelson Sauvin (11.5%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
> 
> Wyeast WY3711 French Saison WY3711
> 
> I am open to changing the late hopping if anyone thinks that I'm making a mistake.



I'm going to give the 3711 a go. Thinking of using Galaxy Hops, I used tettnang and hallertau last time and it wasn't very hoppy. Just going to play and see what it is like, I'm still in love with a yeast I don't need to control the temp on.........


----------



## WSC

Going for a mix of styles, light colour, hoppy with Saison 3711 yeast. trying to get a tasty aussie saison as a house beer so I don't have a fridge tied up all the time doing my quaffers.

Morgans Aussie Lager Tin
1kg LDME
200 Caramalt steeped
20gm Galaxy 30mins
20gm Cascade 20mins
20gm Galaxy 5 mins

24L 3711 yeast - straight from smack pack

Went to bed at midnight and by 6am the yeast is foaming up nicely, think the 3711 is pretty vigorous.

Thoughts on what this will taste like?


----------



## Stuster

That yeast definitely gets things done. My guess is it'll finish at 1002. 

Not sure how the yeast and hops will play together but certainly sounds worth a go. Let us know how it turns out.


----------



## WSC

Stuster said:


> That yeast definitely gets things done. My guess is it'll finish at 1002.
> 
> Not sure how the yeast and hops will play together but certainly sounds worth a go. Let us know how it turns out.



Wow, that is low. I will let you know how it goes, was going to post the recipe and ask but then thought..bugger it will try for myself and see.


----------



## therook

warrenlw63 said:


> This is my latest... I did a double batch and split it. Half went straight to a carboy to clear and the other half was chapitalized with 500g each of dextrose and caramelised raw sugar (1kg total).
> 
> Yeast chewed it all up in around 5 days. Then I racked to another carboy to clear and age for a bit longer.
> 
> So I should have a batch of 5.5% Regular Saison and 7% Super Saison. I shall be interested to try them side by side and note the differences. I'm guessing I'll like the super version better! :icon_drunk:
> 
> Here's the recipe;
> 
> Saison Prenez et Lourd
> 
> A ProMash Recipe Report
> 
> Recipe Specifics
> ----------------
> 
> Batch Size (L): 45.00 Wort Size (L): 45.00
> Total Grain (kg): 9.65
> Anticipated OG: 1.052 Plato: 12.93
> Anticipated EBC: 15.2
> Anticipated IBU: 31.6
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 79 %
> Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
> 
> 
> Grain/Extract/Sugar
> 
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 31.1 3.00 kg. Bairds Pearl Great Britain 1.038 5
> 31.1 3.00 kg. TF Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt UK 1.037 7
> 20.7 2.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
> 10.4 1.00 kg. Bourghul Turkey 1.034 4
> 5.2 0.50 kg. Weyermann Caraamber Germany 1.037 93
> 1.0 0.10 kg. Dingemans Biscuit Malt  Belgium 1.035 50
> 0.5 0.05 kg. JWM Amber Malt Australia 1.038 59
> 
> Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
> 
> 
> Hops
> 
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 25.00 g. Northdown Pellet 9.50 17.2 60 min.
> 30.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.20 12.4 90 min.
> 20.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.20 2.0 15 min.
> 20.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.20 0.0 0 min.
> 
> 
> Extras
> 
> Amount Name Type Time
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 0.00 Oz Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)
> 
> 
> Yeast
> -----
> 
> Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse Ale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Warren -



How did they turn out Wazza?

Rook


----------



## WSC

WSC said:


> Going for a mix of styles, light colour, hoppy with Saison 3711 yeast. trying to get a tasty aussie saison as a house beer so I don't have a fridge tied up all the time doing my quaffers.
> 
> Morgans Aussie Lager Tin
> 1kg LDME
> 200 Caramalt steeped
> 20gm Galaxy 30mins
> 20gm Cascade 20mins
> 20gm Galaxy 5 mins
> 
> 24L 3711 yeast - straight from smack pack
> 
> Went to bed at midnight and by 6am the yeast is foaming up nicely, think the 3711 is pretty vigorous.
> 
> Thoughts on what this will taste like?


This has dropped to 1010 in under a week, big difference from the 3726 and it is cooler too. Was worried about the hops and yeast mix from early hydro samples but now it has dropped it is settling down and the Galaxy/Cascade are mixing with a nice spiciness/pepper from the yeast. I think this may be a good combo but will see how it goes once bottled.


----------



## WSC

Tried this from the fermenter.

Not sure the yeast and hops work, it has finished fermenting but tastes a bit like orange juice after you have cleaned your teeth!!!!

Will hopefully see it round out/mellow in the bottle.


----------



## WSC

What is the lowest anyone has brewed the 3711 yeast at?

It is getting to about 18 in my shed now.....cant's beleive 3 months ago I was worried it was getting too hot!!


----------



## bconnery

WSC said:


> What is the lowest anyone has brewed the 3711 yeast at?
> 
> It is getting to about 18 in my shed now.....cant's beleive 3 months ago I was worried it was getting too hot!!



I found it slowed down a little much below that and had trouble getting going again. Mind you this is a sample set of 1 so far so not exactly conclusive...

Pitch it at around 20+ and then ferment wrapped in a blanket to keep it warm if you can't be bothered with a heat pad or belt (like me). 
The heat from fermentation and the blanket should keep the temp up when it drop overnight. 

I'm fermenting another beer with this yeast right now, in the spare cupboard in the bar, so I'll be able to see how well this plan works in a week or two.


----------



## WSC

bconnery said:


> I found it slowed down a little much below that and had trouble getting going again. Mind you this is a sample set of 1 so far so not exactly conclusive...
> 
> Pitch it at around 20+ and then ferment wrapped in a blanket to keep it warm if you can't be bothered with a heat pad or belt (like me).
> The heat from fermentation and the blanket should keep the temp up when it drop overnight.
> 
> I'm fermenting another beer with this yeast right now, in the spare cupboard in the bar, so I'll be able to see how well this plan works in a week or two.




Think I'll go for the blanket, or move it into the house, will see how it goes, it is still going strong but think once the ferment slows it may stall.


----------



## notung

I'm using 3711 at the moment for Randy Mosher's 'Saisoon Buffoon' recipe with orange/grapefruit zest, a heap of coriander and a pinch of cracked black peppercorns. I pitched at 18, fermented for 3-4 days at 22 then brought up to 25 for the final few days. This is a wonderful, characterful yeast imparting a citrus edge and an amazingly full, complex mouthfeel for a beer that usually attenuates so well.


----------



## WSC

I have only used the 3711 twice and am yet to taste the beers with any age on them. I do think I prefer the flavour profile of the 3711 over the 3724, but i have fermented the 3711 alot cooler than I let the 3724 run up to, at times the 3724 hit 36 degrees in the shed.

The 3711 has only hit 30 degrees but now is more like 20 degrees.

I think I am happy with my Galaxy Hop Saison though, tried an early sample and the hop had mellowed.

My latest beer with this yeast is kind of an english beer - Coopers Pale kit, Brew Enhancer 1 (LHBS not open and needed to get malt this was all woolies had), 400g crystal, 100g Chit choc and 100g RB, 30gm fuggles at 40mins and 20gm at 5 mins.

It taste pretty good as it is fermenting but time will tell. I have also done a stout on 3724 which it just hitting it's straps after about 3 months.

Would love to hear other peoples experiments with this friendly yeast. 

I'm thinking of doing a 8% stong ale/vintage ale beer with it next.


----------



## WSC

WSC said:


> I have only used the 3711 twice and am yet to taste the beers with any age on them. I do think I prefer the flavour profile of the 3711 over the 3724, but i have fermented the 3711 alot cooler than I let the 3724 run up to, at times the 3724 hit 36 degrees in the shed.
> 
> The 3711 has only hit 30 degrees but now is more like 20 degrees.
> 
> I think I am happy with my Galaxy Hop Saison though, tried an early sample and the hop had mellowed.
> 
> My latest beer with this yeast is kind of an english beer - Coopers Pale kit, Brew Enhancer 1 (LHBS not open and needed to get malt this was all woolies had), 400g crystal, 100g Chit choc and 100g RB, 30gm fuggles at 40mins and 20gm at 5 mins.
> 
> It taste pretty good as it is fermenting but time will tell. I have also done a stout on 3724 which it just hitting it's straps after about 3 months.
> 
> Would love to hear other peoples experiments with this friendly yeast.
> 
> I'm thinking of doing a 8% stong ale/vintage ale beer with it next.



So, the Galaxy Saison is still a question mark, Galaxy for me has pineapple flavours for me and I'm not sure how that goes with this yeast.

The Mild is pretty good, bit of roast malt but not sweet as the yeast has got it down to 1004, bottled it last night so see how it carbs.

Stout down last night with 3711.

bconnery, how did yours go?

Cheers,

Wade


----------



## bconnery

WSC said:


> So, the Galaxy Saison is still a question mark, Galaxy for me has pineapple flavours for me and I'm not sure how that goes with this yeast.
> 
> The Mild is pretty good, bit of roast malt but not sweet as the yeast has got it down to 1004, bottled it last night so see how it carbs.
> 
> Stout down last night with 3711.
> 
> bconnery, how did yours go?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wade



Well it's only been kegged a few days but I'm very happy with it so far. Really nice smooth silky finish that works great with the sweeter style FES I used it in. 
Between the bitter and the FES I'm starting to believe firmly that this is a nice yeast for a number of styles, at least to my taste.


----------



## WSC

bconnery said:


> Well it's only been kegged a few days but I'm very happy with it so far. Really nice smooth silky finish that works great with the sweeter style FES I used it in.
> Between the bitter and the FES I'm starting to believe firmly that this is a nice yeast for a number of styles, at least to my taste.



I agree, I think I would give the fruitier higher AA% hops a miss with this yeast though. 

I have now done a traditional Saison with Tettnang hops, a Stout, a Galaxy Hop Saison, a english mild/bitter and now another stout. The first 2 with the 3724 and the rest with 3711. Think I will use 3724 in summer (as it handles the high heat better) and the 3711 in winter, no need for temp control and frees up the fridge for lagers and other ales. Nice.


----------



## winkle

I've got a saison oatmeal stout using 3711 happening at the moment, should be interesting.

Has anyone tried using proculture's PRO- 86 BELGIAN SAISON ALE YEAST II? Sounds quite good from the description. Source for the yeast?


----------



## manticle

Just ordered a saison WY from craftbrewer (from memory it was a PC one) Developing a couple of recipes to use it wih over the warmer months and would like to start with a fairly simple, reasonably traditional one for starters then maybe have a play with a few others.

Looking at mainly pilsner malt with maybe 10% wheat a touch of biscuit (because I love it so) and either tettnanger or styrian goldings bittered to around 30-32. Will probably keep alc around 4-5 % for this one.
Following that I might make a similar one but with a portion of vienna then maybe one that verges on brown or red (so some spec malts). I might push the alc up to 6-7% with these.

Just reviving the thread because the warmer weather is approaching and it feels appropriate. Last summer I had a hell of a time churning out any decent beers so I'm hoping to change that. This thread has some good info I will keep digesting.


----------



## DUANNE

got my first saison of the season down fermenting now.went like clappers for two days from 1048 down to 1030 using wyeast belgian saison, but almost predictably has stuck now. also using oat malt for the first time and put in a kilo of it, ended up using the cofee grinder to mill it cause it is way to small for the mill without pissing around with the gap settings. its now sitting on 30 degrees and being completetly forgoton for at least a week or two before i check it again.also thinking of pulling 5 litres out and putting in a carboy with some brett c just for an experiment.


----------



## BrenosBrews

manticle said:


> Just ordered a saison WY from craftbrewer (from memory it was a PC one) Developing a couple of recipes to use it wih over the warmer months and would like to start with a fairly simple, reasonably traditional one for starters then maybe have a play with a few others.
> 
> Looking at mainly pilsner malt with maybe 10% wheat a touch of biscuit (because I love it so) and either tettnanger or styrian goldings bittered to around 30-32. Will probably keep alc around 4-5 % for this one.
> Following that I might make a similar one but with a portion of vienna then maybe one that verges on brown or red (so some spec malts). I might push the alc up to 6-7% with these.
> 
> Just reviving the thread because the warmer weather is approaching and it feels appropriate. Last summer I had a hell of a time churning out any decent beers so I'm hoping to change that. This thread has some good info I will keep digesting.



That would be 3711 French Saison. Don't know why Craftbrewer has PC next to it still as it's now a year round release.
Anywho, I used this in combination with 3522 Belgian Ardennes in a Saison I entered in Vicbrew this year & it got 5th.

It was mainly Pilsner with a touch of wheat & a bit of Acidulated malt. Hopped with Pacific Jade to about 25 from memory. Probably fermented a bit too cool around 19-20 as if anything it's lacking the peppery spice phenols.

Next one I'm going to combine 3724 & 3711, add a bit of Vienna & ferment warmer. Once that's done some Brettanomyces will be getting used in a Saison or 2.


----------



## manticle

How necessary is cane sugar in this style? Worth adding 5%?


----------



## BrenosBrews

manticle said:


> How necessary is cane sugar in this style? Worth adding 5%?



Not necessary at all. Low mashing temp & lowish OG will have 3711 ripping through it. Maybe worth it in the higher ABV ones. Some honey to up the OG but still finish low will add more interest & complexity than cane sugar though.


----------



## manticle

Cool. Just ordered farmhouse ales from the book depository. 17.50, delivered to my door. Sometimes I love the internet.


----------



## Tony

I have one fermenting now..... made it to 1.038 to get it done faster and keep it at quaffable alc levels. Its probably a bit over hopped but im cleaning out some old stocks and ive gotta say....... the gas from the fermenter smells fantastic!

Its had its few days of frenzy and has slowed now..... sitting at garage temps of about 25 to 26 id say. Might have to ramp the heat up a bit to help it along.

I used a fair %age of wheat to get that dry tart maltiness into the beer to make it really quenching.

Golden Saison

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 54.00 Wort Size (L): 54.00
Total Grain (kg): 8.20
Anticipated OG: 1.038 Plato: 9.62
Anticipated EBC: 5.6
Anticipated IBU: 25.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
73.2 6.00 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
24.4 2.00 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.038 4
2.4 0.20 kg. Weyermann Acidulated Germany 1.035 5

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
90.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.00 18.7 45 min.
10.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 6.30 3.3 45 min.
30.00 g. E.K Goldings Pellet 4.30 3.6 15 min.
40.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 6.30 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison


Mash Schedule
-------------


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
protein rest 5 15 52 51 Infuse 59 20.16 2.46
mash 5 45 63 62 Infuse 99 7.98 3.43
hi mash 5 15 71 71 Infuse 99 9.90 4.64


----------



## Stuster

Doesn't look over hopped to me, Tony. Just looks delicious. :icon_drool2: 

I would get that temp up after a day or two but really should be a great summer beer.


----------



## Pumpy

Tony , 

I am sure it will be great , I use some stinky old Saaz & Styrian Goldings in my Saison , you will get some authentic Saison Dupont if you bottle in Champers bottles it gives it that real spritzy effect 

Pumpy


----------



## notung

Drank Saison Dupont for the first time last night and it was delicious. They serve it at the Public Inn, Castlemaine! Jeez the yeast has character! A bit of a banana funk effect. I've only ever brewed with 3711, which is quite different.


----------



## manticle

Either for tomorrow or next weekend

feedback from experienced saison brewers more than welcome:

Style:	Saison
Type:	All grain
Size:	20 liters
Color: 3 HCU (~3 SRM) 
Bitterness: 36 IBU
OG: 1.044
FG: 1.005
Alcohol:	5.0% v/v (3.9% w/w)
Grain:	2.5kg Dingemans Pilsner
1kg JW Wheat malt
500g Wey Vienna
Mash: 62 degrees C, 60 minutes, 70% efficiency
Boil: 90 minutes, SG 1.027, 32 liters
Hops:	15g Hallertauer Hersbrucker (5% AA, 60 min.)
15g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 60 min.)
15g Hallertauer Hersbrucker (5% AA, 20 min.)
15g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 20 min.)

2g calcium sulphate to mash and boil
2g calcium chloride to mash

Maybe a play with citric or lactic acid to drop mash pH?.
Whirlfloc
WY3711


----------



## Tony

Stuster said:


> Doesn't look over hopped to me, Tony. Just looks delicious. :icon_drool2:
> 
> I would get that temp up after a day or two but really should be a great summer beer.



Its been raining and cool here so i have had the leccy balnky on it at night keeping it in the high 20's.

Its down to 1.003 and still fizzing a bit. Will give it another week and look at getting it in the keg!

cheers


----------



## Tony

Well the saison got down to somewhere between 1.001 and 1.002 and stopped. Very happy.

I'm making another one today with a bit of a twist.

i could not decide on how to make it. i had been playing with the recipe all week and couldnt settle on a grain bill. I was out back cleaning my pool yesterday enjoying a longneck of coopers pale ale... as was my want..... when it hit me like a cold wet flounder.

AUSSIE PALE SAISON!

I can have my cake, and eat it too! Let her run in the hot garage and enjoy after xmas.


Aussie Pale Saison

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 54.00 Wort Size (L): 54.00
Total Grain (kg): 10.00
Anticipated OG: 1.046 Plato: 11.39
Anticipated EBC: 7.4
Anticipated IBU: 27.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
90.0 9.00 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 5
10.0 1.00 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.038 4



Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
60.00 g. Pride of Ringwood Pellet 8.30 24.5 45 min.
30.00 g. Pride of Ringwood Pellet 10.20 3.3 5 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison


Mash Schedule
-------------



Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
protein 5 10 52 52 Infuse 58 22.00 2.20
mash 2 60 63 63 Infuse 99 8.05 3.01
hi mash 2 15 71 71 Infuse 99 9.40 3.95


----------



## manticle

How different is the 3724 from the 3711 (besides allegedly taking forever)?

Just put my first saison into the fridge for cold conditioning. Before it went into the fridge it was like a belgian hefeweizen but a bit yeasty. With a few days cold it's much less yeasty and has that dry refreshing thing I'm aiming for. I used 3711 with a fairly simple grist and hop schedule to make a traditional pale low/mid alc brew for summer.

No problems with 3711 stalling but interested in flavour differences.


----------



## vykuza

Just about to keg a 3711 saison. Started at 1.054 and by my measurements with refract, at 5 brix it's now at 0.999 Seems a bit odd to me. I'll throw the hydrometer in a sample to confirm, but has anyone else seen sub 1.000 readings with this yeast? 

Recipe here; all temps (mash temp low at 64 degrees)


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Saison 2 Episode 1
Brewer: Nick
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Saison
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 29.08 L
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 6.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 35.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.50 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 45.45 % 
2.50 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM) Grain 45.45 % 
0.50 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.09 % 
12.00 gm Sorachi Ace [12.10 %] (60 min) (First WorHops 16.5 IBU 
25.00 gm Sorachi Ace [12.10 %] (20 min) Hops 18.9 IBU 
1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711PC) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 5.50 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
75 min Mash In Add 14.34 L of water at 72.3 C 64.0 C 



Tastes good - no infections or off flavours I can detect.


----------



## A3k

I've used it twice without mashing too low. Both ended up at 1002, so it doesn't seem too unreasonable. Pretty sue others have had similar results.


----------



## Tony

low at 64............ ha 

I stuffed up once and mashed a pale ale at 61 to 62 once and it got down to 1.002 with US-05 

I regularly mash quaffers at 63 or 64 for that dry dinkability in the hot summer!

next summer..... im giving this 3711 a go...... i like the sound of it!


----------



## DUANNE

manticle said:


> How different is the 3724 from the 3711 (besides allegedly taking forever)?
> 
> Just put my first saison into the fridge for cold conditioning. Before it went into the fridge it was like a belgian hefeweizen but a bit yeasty. With a few days cold it's much less yeasty and has that dry refreshing thing I'm aiming for. I used 3711 with a fairly simple grist and hop schedule to make a traditional pale low/mid alc brew for summer.
> 
> No problems with 3711 stalling but interested in flavour differences.




same here(the flavour difference thing) ive used 3724 a fair bit but the time waiting for it to decide to attenuate can be a bit of a pain. i would also really like to know what flavour difference there is before i give 3711 a crack.


----------



## vykuza

BEERHOG said:


> same here(the flavour difference thing) ive used 3724 a fair bit but the time waiting for it to decide to attenuate can be a bit of a pain. i would also really like to know what flavour difference there is before i give 3711 a crack.




Well, without having done a direct side by side comparison, the two yeasts are quite similar in flavour. It gives that saison slight Belgiany twist and a nice dry finish. The 3711 seems to be slightly more tart, perhaps a hint of acid, in my opinion. Going from my dodgy memory. 

No problems fermenting with it though! It's a monster compared to 3724.


----------



## manticle

Nick R said:


> Just about to keg a 3711 saison. Started at 1.054 and by my measurements with refract, at 5 brix it's now at 0.999 Seems a bit odd to me. I'll throw the hydrometer in a sample to confirm, but has anyone else seen sub 1.000 readings with this yeast?



After reading this, I pulled mine out of the CC fridge. It had been sitting on 1005 for most of the previous week and I thought her done.

Warm weather in Melbourne yesterday and last night - today she's down close to 1.000 (fair bit of head in the sample jar so waiting for it to settle).

Could have had a very overcarbed saison (was going to bottle today) so I'm glad I did. I'll give her a bit more time I think, then CC again.


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

Tony said:


> once and it got down to 1.002 with US-05




Out of curiosity, when you pitched the us-05, did you drop the temp to 18deg or just leave it at ambient?


----------



## Tony

Ahhhh no it was not a Saison i used the US-05 in. I was just making refference to how most beers can be fermented down to near zip if you mash low enough, and that you can go lower than 64 deg to get a really dry beer.

sorry for the confusion there


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

Just quickly toying around with a recipie, has anyone mashed rice in their saisons?


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

Have been toying with this recipie for a little while now:

White Rice Saison

10 LTRS 

90min Mash:
2kgs Weyerman Pils
50g Weyerman Caraamber
50g Weyerman Carapils
500g Long-Grain White Rice


5g of NB @ 60mins
10g Hallertau @40mins
10g Hallertau @ 5mins

WY3724 slurry from second successful saison.

Calling on the adjunct and saison gurus here on this one.

Cheers....


_wallace_


----------



## manticle

Weather me up, it's saison time again.

planning three - all same grist and hop schedule but with three different yeasts.

Current recipe is:

Brewer:	-	Email:	-
Beer:	-	Style:	-
Type:	All grain	Size:	22 liters
Color:	5 HCU (~5 SRM) 
Bitterness:	35 IBU
OG:	1.047	FG:	1.008
Alcohol:	5.0% v/v (3.9% w/w)
Grain:	4kg Belgian Pilsner
500g Wheat malt
250g Belgian biscuit
Mash:	70% efficiency, TEMP: 55/62/72/78
TIME: 10/50/10/10
Boil: 90 minutes, , SG 1.030, 34 liters
Hops: 15g Spalt (5.5% AA, 60 min.)
15g Hallertauer mittelfruh (5% AA, 60 min.)
15g Spalt (5.5% AA, 20 min.)
15g Hallertauer mittelfruh (5% AA, 20 min.)
10g Spalt (aroma)
10g Hallertauer mittelfruh (aroma)

Some brewing salts to suit and maybe some citric acid.

1. WYPC farmhouse ale 3726
2. French Saison 3711
3. Belgian saison 3724?

Will probably drop below predicted FG of 1008 if my last experience with 3711 is anything to go by.


----------



## humulus

manticle said:


> Weather me up, it's saison time again.
> 
> planning three - all same grist and hop schedule but with three different yeasts.
> 
> Current recipe is:
> 
> Brewer:	-	Email:	-
> Beer:	-	Style:	-
> Type:	All grain	Size:	22 liters
> Color:	5 HCU (~5 SRM)
> Bitterness:	35 IBU
> OG:	1.047	FG:	1.008
> Alcohol:	5.0% v/v (3.9% w/w)
> Grain:	4kg Belgian Pilsner
> 500g Wheat malt
> 250g Belgian biscuit
> Mash:	70% efficiency, TEMP: 55/62/72/78
> TIME: 10/50/10/10
> Boil: 90 minutes, , SG 1.030, 34 liters
> Hops: 15g Spalt (5.5% AA, 60 min.)
> 15g Hallertauer mittelfruh (5% AA, 60 min.)
> 15g Spalt (5.5% AA, 20 min.)
> 15g Hallertauer mittelfruh (5% AA, 20 min.)
> 10g Spalt (aroma)
> 10g Hallertauer mittelfruh (aroma)
> 
> Some brewing salts to suit and maybe some citric acid.
> 
> 1. WYPC farmhouse ale 3726
> 2. French Saison 3711
> 3. Belgian saison 3724?
> 
> Will probably drop below predicted FG of 1008 if my last experience with 3711 is anything to go by.


Just ordered some 3726 from G&G said it should arrive in store this week,is German pilsner malt ok?seeing ive got about 10kg of bestmalz
cheers glenn


----------



## Nick JD

humulus said:


> Just ordered some 3726 from G&G said it should arrive in store this week,is German pilsner malt ok?seeing ive got about 10kg of bestmalz
> cheers glenn



I read that a lot of the Belgian beers use German Pils.


----------



## manticle

German pils would be A-OK.


----------



## Tony

putting this one in today. Will split the 34 liters between 2 x 17L cubes and ferment with different yeasts.

Ideas are based around some questions i got about using Melanoiden and Chinook in my BH Saison beer. I dodnt like the idea of the more extreme flavoured ingredients in what should be a subtle easy drinking beer.

So i have gone with a Saison that is Vienna malt driven, and using B Saaz (Oh how i love this hop) for its sticy peppery character.

Vienna Saison

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 34.00 Wort Size (L): 34.00
Total Grain (kg): 6.00
Anticipated OG: 1.042 Plato: 10.47
Anticipated EBC: 7.7
Anticipated IBU: 26.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.0 3.00 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 7
33.3 2.00 kg. Weyermann FM Boh Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
16.7 1.00 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.038 4

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. B-Saaz Whole 8.10 17.0 40 min.
30.00 g. B-Saaz Whole 8.10 9.6 15 min.
30.00 g. B-Saaz Whole 8.10 0.0 0 min (cube hopped 15g per cube).


Yeast
-----

Farmhouse ale and French Saison


----------



## Tony

2 batches pitched on 3711 and 3726.

Ooooo cant wait.

I used to hate summer brewing........ not any more, the hotter the better!


----------



## Muscovy_333

Tony said:


> putting this one in today. Will split the 34 liters between 2 x 17L cubes and ferment with different yeasts.
> 
> Ideas are based around some questions i got about using Melanoiden and Chinook in my BH Saison beer. I dodnt like the idea of the more extreme flavoured ingredients in what should be a subtle easy drinking beer.
> 
> So i have gone with a Saison that is Vienna malt driven, and using B Saaz (Oh how i love this hop) for its sticy peppery character.
> 
> Vienna Saison
> 
> A ProMash Recipe Report
> 
> Recipe Specifics
> ----------------
> 
> 
> Batch Size (L): 34.00 Wort Size (L): 34.00
> Total Grain (kg): 6.00
> Anticipated OG: 1.042 Plato: 10.47
> Anticipated EBC: 7.7
> Anticipated IBU: 26.6
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
> Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes
> 
> 
> Grain/Extract/Sugar
> 
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 50.0 3.00 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 7
> 33.3 2.00 kg. Weyermann FM Boh Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
> 16.7 1.00 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.038 4
> 
> Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
> 
> 
> Hops
> 
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 30.00 g. B-Saaz Whole 8.10 17.0 40 min.
> 30.00 g. B-Saaz Whole 8.10 9.6 15 min.
> 30.00 g. B-Saaz Whole 8.10 0.0 0 min (cube hopped 15g per cube).
> 
> 
> Yeast
> -----
> 
> Farmhouse ale and French Saison




And i'm going to rip off your grist and lay one down with 3724.....Love Vienna


----------



## Tony

mate.... it smelt and looked great into the fermenter!

Any Pils will do.... i was just using up old grain with the Boh Pils..... but you gotta love boh pils right


----------



## beers

Tony said:


> 2 batches pitched on 3711 and 3726.



Have you used 3726 before Tony?
I'm drinking my first attempt at using it. Farmhouse Ales state that Brasserie Blaugies ferment it cool, for a saison yeast anyway, at 25-27c. Mine got upto 24c & esters are on the subdued side. Has a nice profile though.

That's a lot of Vienna, I'd be interested hearing how it goes.


----------



## Muscovy_333

Tony said:


> mate.... it smelt and looked great into the fermenter!
> 
> Any Pils will do.... i was just using up old grain with the Boh Pils..... but you gotta love boh pils right




I have some Boh Pils left over...bonus. 
Im going to trial my first decoction on this grist, i hear the Boh Pils is better for it.

Hopping with my French Strisselspalt again, it is soo spicy on the nose!
If it works out i might take it to the BAR brewers et al swap in April at vic 45's place


----------



## Tony

beers said:


> Have you used 3726 before Tony?
> I'm drinking my first attempt at using it. Farmhouse Ales state that Brasserie Blaugies ferment it cool, for a saison yeast anyway, at 25-27c. Mine got upto 24c & esters are on the subdued side. Has a nice profile though.
> 
> That's a lot of Vienna, I'd be interested hearing how it goes.



havnt used it before but my garage is sitting at about 28 deg so should be fine. Well i have used it but the Hibiscus ale i made with hit is chilling waiting tor me to have time to filter it....... probably firday!

Lots of vienna...... Meh..... its a base malt.


----------



## felon

Im five days into fermenting a Bullshead Summer Saison with 3726. It's been sitting very stable around 30 deg. Should be interesting. Very tasty out of the hydro. :icon_drool2:


----------



## Tony

be sure to post your results in the BHSS thread mate..... that recipe sure is proving to be a hit with the punters 

Its just too damn easy to make and drink in the summer hey!

And people without temp control pump your fists to the air........ SAISON IS HERE TO HELP!


----------



## humulus

Tony said:


> be sure to post your results in the BHSS thread mate..... that recipe sure is proving to be a hit with the punters
> 
> Its just too damn easy to make and drink in the summer hey!
> 
> And people without temp control pump your fists to the air........ SAISON IS HERE TO HELP!



Let's hound wyeast to make farmhouse a regular yeast!!!!! Just pitched farmhouse into another bulls head saison!!! Love that beer and that yeast!


----------



## felon

Will do Tony. Thanks for a great recipe and thanks humulus for the yeast. :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## Charst

Just wondering thoughts on the attached recipe. I got some tins of goo for christmas so I'm using a coopers international lager can with 17 IBU in can (galaxy hop addition).

Can of Coopers Wheat is other addition and fermenting with yeast harvested from the new local Saison La Sirene

The saaz are quite low AA% but it looks a little over hopped to me, but I've never used saaz so..


----------



## Mikedub

love Saaz, and it would would complement the spiciness of a Saison yeast but I'd agree with you Charst, there is not a lot of breathing space for the yeast profile to come through with that hopping schedule, I've in the past gone for 60, 20, and 5 minute additions,


----------



## Charst

Mikedub said:


> love Saaz, and it would would complement the spiciness of a Saison yeast but I'd agree with you Charst, there is not a lot of breathing space for the yeast profile to come through with that hopping schedule, I've in the past gone for 60, 20, and 5 minute additions,




just hoping to get a bit of hop complexity if thats the right word. I've made a few beers with additions as you mentioned and find the smell and be great but lack in in flavour or gaps in the taste between if you get me. 

so i thought id split the additions over a range of minutes. any thoughts on the overall quantity of hop addition? it APA like in amount but its only 3.0% AA


----------



## Mikedub

felon said:


> Im five days into fermenting a Bullshead Summer Saison with 3726. It's been sitting very stable around 30 deg. Should be interesting. Very tasty out of the hydro. :icon_drool2:



I'm a fan of the Wlp565 (3724) I often read posts bitchen it stalls 2/3s the way through fermenting, I pitched last Sat night at 1.052, its been around 28 - 32 degrees since, this morning it was 1.006, not a fusel in sight, now that's bitchn


----------



## Mikedub

Charst said:


> just hoping to get a bit of hop complexity if thats the right word. I've made a few beers with additions as you mentioned and find the smell and be great but lack in in flavour or gaps in the taste between if you get me.
> 
> so i thought id split the additions over a range of minutes. any thoughts on the overall quantity of hop addition? it APA like in amount but its only 3.0% AA




I imagine your listed schedule - nearly 100g evenly spread in a 23l batch would seem to have you covered , although low AA, Saaz is not low in flavour IMO


----------



## manticle

Charst said:


> just hoping to get a bit of hop complexity if thats the right word. I've made a few beers with additions as you mentioned and find the smell and be great but lack in in flavour or gaps in the taste between if you get me.
> 
> so i thought id split the additions over a range of minutes. any thoughts on the overall quantity of hop addition? it APA like in amount but its only 3.0% AA



I'm a fan of what you're suggesting with beers that totally rely on hops like apas and ipas. Not sure about it for this though. I'd be more inclined to shoot for two nobles or similar that complement each other - something like hallertauer mittelfreh and saaz, tettnanger and saaz or spalt and saaz (or any combo of the above). Stryrians might also work. A hoppy saison is a different kettle of fish to a hoppy US pale ale.

However, having never hop bursted with nobles myself, I can't tell you definitively that it won't work. If it doesn't will you be devestated? Could use this free kit for a trial to see for yourself.


----------



## Lecterfan

DISCLAIMER: my experience(s) so far have only been with wy3711. I have tasted reasonably hoppy beers brewed by others with this yeast and after full and decent (1.006 - 4ish) attenuation there is f/a flavour but the yeast (and that includes a popular APA recipe from AHB done with wy3711 for a giggle - bloody nice beer, but just tastes like a saison).

I've brewed with this yeast four times myself now (they are all young and most of my comments now are based on tasting from secondary) and the only one I got any hops from was one with 50gms styrian at flameout.

My concern would be that you are using two cans of extract so what will be the attenuation/FG? If the yeast works warm enough and attenuates out - AND if wy3711 is anything to go on - you will still get plenty of yeast flavour. All up three very big "ifs" based only on my anecdotal experience...


----------



## Charst

manticle said:


> I'm a fan of what you're suggesting with beers that totally rely on hops like apas and ipas. Not sure about it for this though. I'd be more inclined to shoot for two nobles or similar that complement each other - something like hallertauer mittelfreh and saaz, tettnanger and saaz or spalt and saaz (or any combo of the above). Stryrians might also work. A hoppy saison is a different kettle of fish to a hoppy US pale ale.
> 
> However, having never hop bursted with nobles myself, I can't tell you definitively that it won't work. If it doesn't will you be devestated? Could use this free kit for a trial to see for yourself.




Definitely won't be devastated but may knock back the quantities a touch, keeping the amount of additions though.
Have some hallertauer so may go a mix.

La Sirene yeast taste very bananary tasting the settled starter. only being built up at 20 degrees so i hope the other fruit comes through when fermented in the batch at higher temps.


----------



## sponge

Looking at pumping a Saison out on the w/e

Any feedback on the following recipe?

45% pils
20% munich
20% vienna
15% wheat

2g/L Saaz (or EKG) @ 20min
2g/L Hallertau (or styrians) @ F.O

1.040-45
30IBU
3711 @ 22-23'C

Still not sure whether to go Saaz & Hallertau, or EKG and styrians

Any preferences from the saison brewers out there?




Sponge


----------



## sponge

PS. The 50/50 wheat/pils with 3711 is tasting delicious. Real tart, but still has the nice fruity saison esters coming through.

Ill give it a couple more days (til after I brew the above recipe if there arent any recommended changes) and rack it onto some frozen mixed berries. Decided on them as opposed to just raspberries to add to the colour and the combination of the combined fruits falvours, just for something a little different.

Time will tell if it was a good idea or not...


Sponge


----------



## Mikedub

sponge said:


> Still not sure whether to go Saaz & Hallertau, or EKG and styrians
> 
> Sponge




two noble hops and EKG has always worked for me,


----------



## Tony

My B Saaz Saisons finnished.

3726 FHA fermented from 1.046 to 1.004..... tasted quite fruity and earthy.... delicious!
3711 went to 1.000, tasted quite clean and well.... a bit boring.

So i put them both in the one keg and blended them for a combo of lemon and earthy fruit...... should be great.

Just aiting for room in the kegorator to filter it.

The FHA was soooooooooooo clear it was scary!

I really thing we need to start a campein to have this yeast on full time. We did it with 1469...... we can do it with this!

Hell..... id use it all summer. Its a no power in sumer yeast...... win win!

cheers


----------



## Charst

Tony said:


> My B Saaz Saisons finnished.
> 
> 3726 FHA fermented from 1.046 to 1.004..... tasted quite fruity and earthy.... delicious!
> 3711 went to 1.000, tasted quite clean and well.... a bit boring.
> 
> So i put them both in the one keg and blended them for a combo of lemon and earthy fruit...... should be great.
> 
> Just aiting for room in the kegorator to filter it.
> 
> The FHA was soooooooooooo clear it was scary!
> 
> I really thing we need to start a campein to have this yeast on full time. We did it with 1469...... we can do it with this!
> 
> Hell..... id use it all summer. Its a no power in sumer yeast...... win win!
> 
> cheers




Hows the hibiscus version travelling tony?


----------



## Tony

Its red with a pink head and dry and tart


----------



## manticle

Iknow a pink/redhead tart but she's far from dry. She's a barrel of laughs actually and very kind to old people..


----------



## Tony

Update:

Viena Saison with B SAAZ is a winner!

I tried both beers and as i said before...... blended them. 

3711 FS was a bit bland, as usual
3726 FHA was quite fruity and full on..... delicious though!

So i figured the lemon and the funky fruit would mix well, and it was one of the best damn things i ever did.

I just cracked the keg today, and slap me pink if its not the best Saison i have made to date. Id say it is on par recipe wise with the Bulls Head Saison, but the blending of yeast has really made this shine.

The spicy floral hit from the cube hopped B Saaz flowers has worked well too.

Im putting this in the recipe database...... it is truly worthy!

Pic below is 2nd glass from the keg, racked from primary unfiltered. Very happy.


----------



## Tony

update:






recipe is in the database...... one of my best beers ever!

Thanks to AHB people challenging my ideals....... god i love this brewing community 

cheers


----------



## NickB

No need to brag mate... 




Looks amazing!!


----------



## Tony

NickB said:


> No need to brag mate...



Well...... i couldn't resist....... it looks so good and you may soon know what it tastes like too


----------



## Lecterfan

HI tony,

I've not found my 3711 attempts to be bland, but can understand where you are coming from...are you essentially suggesting to brew two batches and blend them at the completion of fermentation (kegging/bottling)?

You prefer this to 3724 in general, or just this particular grist and hop combo? (I hope I've read all this right as I am on the happy side of tipsy).

Cheers.


----------



## NickB

Tony said:


> Well...... i couldn't resist....... it looks so good and you may soon know what it tastes like too




Well, if you insist 

Any beers swapped will be replaced by what most would deem inferior beers, nonetheless free


----------



## Tony

Lecterfan said:


> HI tony,
> 
> I've not found my 3711 attempts to be bland, but can understand where you are coming from...are you essentially suggesting to brew two batches and blend them at the completion of fermentation (kegging/bottling)?
> 
> You prefer this to 3724 in general, or just this particular grist and hop combo? (I hope I've read all this right as I am on the happy side of tipsy).
> 
> Cheers.



Mmmm maybe bland was a bad term...... it was just..... lemon!

The FHA was full on funky fruit. Awsome but very full on.

Thats why i decided to blend them and it worked so well. The funky fruit and lemon blended perfect.

The combo of these 2 yeasts was far FAR superior to 3724. both fermented to 1.003 in under 2 weeks and i have sent a formal request to Yweast to replace the great but troublesome 3724 with 3726 FHA........ its an amazing yeast. They responded saying that lots like 3724 and would complain if it was taken off the list. 

I said.... well release the 3724 for the hard core masochists once a year and give us 3726 all the time.

maybe they need more emails?


----------



## Lecterfan

Thanks Tony.

edit: I wonder if full on 'lemon' was a function of the motueka and 3711 together? I've used 3711 with Nelson Sav and yet the 'champagne mixed with beer"-ish taste was no more severe than when I used styrians or saaz. Lemon didn't stand out for me, just anecdotal! I'm keen to try the 3726 based on your posts though!!! :beer:


----------



## Tony

yeah id say it was a combo of malt, hops and yeast. A previous beer i made with 3711 had lemon hints but this beer was like lemon merang. 

The FHA beer had no such lemon tones.

I hope you got some 3726 while it was around because it seems to be a once every 3 year release 

I got 2 packs while they were on sale ...... and no..... the 2nd smask pack is not for sale


----------



## mje1980

Drinking my first attempt at home brewed saison. Pretty simple grist, dingemans pils, 6% each if raw wheat flaked barley and sugar. Fermented with belle saison crazy hot. Today is 6 days since I pitched the yeast, and it's carbed up haha. What a lovely beer. Soooooo dry and tart but fruity also. The first sip I think it's got maybe too much black pepper/ lemon but it settles in wonderfully after that, and I love how once you swallow it it's just gone. I have a couple more packs and enough dingemans to do 2 more batches. I also have some reasonably fresh 3725 beire de garde yeast so I'm keen to do a batch with that, should be interesting. I don't think I could brew another blonde or pale ale again. This is perfect for summer. Read this thread the whole way. Awesome!


----------



## Byran

" I don't think I could brew another blonde or pale ale again"

Thats a big call mate....  It must be a winner!


----------



## mje1980

Yep, dry fruity and spicy. Did I mention dry?. 1.045 og but went down to 1.002, so close to 6%, but ridiculously sessionable. Onto my 3rd pint, and I was only going to have one. I shouldn't have another but FFS I'm bound to hahaha

I have a blonde with 1007 on tap as well. Very nice but just so bland compared to this.


----------



## djalikell

Nice choice Stuster.  

I can only speak from the experience of one I've made myself. Turned out really nice. :beerbang: 

First and foremost anbody who really wants to dabble with this style and it's well worth it should grab a copy of "Farmhouse Ales". Well worth the read.

Commercial examples can be had here if you look hard enough. Saison Dupont is available in Australia and is a the supposed benchmark for the style. Really great drop. 

I've also tried one of Brent's (Borret's) interpretation of the style and it was an absolute gem.  Lots of complexity and a good dry finish. It just heightened my belief that the KISS theory works well on the grainbill.

I'll post me recipe but confess that the Cara Amber just clashed too much with the bone dry attenuation of the yeast. Next time I make this I'd just stick with 100% Pilsner malt and maybe a bit of wheat.

As for fermentation? I'd suggest pitching at normal ale temps (around 18 degrees) and letting the fermentation creep up to around 30 degrees (or more). Trust me this yeast can handle it. In fact it goes to sleep if you don't keep it at a minimum of 25 degrees. Be patient and let it finish the job. My primary took around a month.

Think I might do another this summer. Great beer to make (and consume) in hot weather.

Saison du Auld Lang Sine

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

16-C Belgian & French Ale, Saison

Min OG: 1.048 Max OG: 1.080
Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 45
Min Clr: 12 Max Clr: 31 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 40.00 Wort Size (L): 40.00
Total Grain (kg): 9.10
Anticipated OG:  1.056 Plato: 13.84
Anticipated EBC: 10.8
Anticipated IBU: 29.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 79 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
22.0 2.00 kg. Bourghul Australia 1.034 4
4.4 0.40 kg. Cane Sugar Generic 1.046 0
54.9 5.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
16.5 1.50 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 8
2.2 0.20 kg. Weyermann Caraamber Germany 1.037 93

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
60.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 21.5 60 min.
20.00 g. Saaz Pellet 3.30 5.3 60 min.
15.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 1.4 15 min.
20.00 g. Saaz Pellet 3.30 0.9 5 min.
5.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 0.3 5 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 gm Corriander Seed Spice 5 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison



Warren -


Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## mje1980

Got number 3 fermenting now. Number 2 was brewed for Xmas day, around 4.5% and using wyeast 3725 beire de garde yeast. I reckon this is pretty close to a saison yeast as it is tart n fruity ( though not as intensely so ) and finished under 1.005, it's also not going to make Xmas day, hence number 3. 

Number 3 is fermenting with 3711 French saison at the moment. I used Simpsons Maris otter and malted wheat this time, mainly because i reckon it won't make too much difference, these beer seem to be all about yeast, and also it's for mega swill drinkers so dingemans etc would be wasted on them haha. Calypso hops seem to go really well together with saison. I'm expecting a package this week of some BB pale and 3724 Belgian saison, and I just found a vac sealed bag of 3.5 kg of dingemans from my last order. I guess I'm making a few more at least haha. 

I also just finished a few bottles I added orval dregs to. I know you're supposed to age them a while but I cracked one and it was so damn good, I drank all bar one. I'll try to leave that one for my birthday in march.


----------



## shmick

G'day All

Not sure if anyone else has posted this but picked a St-Feuillien Saison and a Jenlains Biere de Garde from Dan's on the w/e. New lines apparently.

The Ambree was quite tasty but yet to try the St-F but has a few good reviews

Might be easy to get elsewhere (?) but quite a novelty here on the Central Coast (Tuggerah) so posted here for us poor style deprived

Cheers


----------



## pat_00

How does this look? My first Saison recipe....

I have a bucketload of Victoria's Secret flowers to get through 

Figured the stone fruitiness could suit the dryness of a Saison, or would a more neutral bittering hop be better?

*out of saison* (Saison)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (°P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 4.0 (EBC): 7.9
Bitterness (IBU): 27.2 (Average)

47.62% Pilsner
38.1% Vienna
14.29% Wheat Malt

0.5 g/L Victorias Secret (16.2% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.7 g/L Victorias Secret (16.2% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 63°C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 20-25°C with Danstar Belle Saison


----------



## mje1980

Looks great IMHO


----------



## Liam_snorkel

yep looks yum, inspirational as my saison keg just blew, reckon I'll put one down this weekend.

you can expect it to finish a lot lower than 1.013, belle saison is a hungry beast


----------



## pat_00

Yeah that's what I thought. Most of my beers finish lower than brewmate calculates.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

what I ended up doing in brewmate is entering Belle Saison in as a new yeast with attenuation of 90% - which ends up ballpark.

I've also entered one with the name "high mash temp" at 60% attenuation for when I brew milds.


----------



## pat_00

good ideas


----------



## pat_00

Fermenting the above recipe now it's about half way done.

only change was I subbed out the second VS additiion in favour of my whole whopping 12 gram!!! crop of homegrown cascade and chinook cones.

Totally not to style i know, but so far it tastes sacrilicious. Feels wrong fermenting so hot too.


----------



## mje1980

Really like saison, I think it's my favourite non uk ale.

Just pitched my latest, 14% raw spelt, the rest dingemans pils. EKG 60,30 and for shits n giggles some whole Riwaka flowers at flameout. 3724 Belgian saison. 

This one, and the other cube of saison I have ( 100% ding pils, and saaz ), I've bittered a little higher than I normally would, and added lots of gypsum to the mash, which is 90mins on the low 60's. I'm planning on leaving them for a good 6-9 months before drinking them. I figure it'll be long enough to smooth out the bitterness. If it's not, I'll just leave em a few more months. All going in champagne bottles for a little bit of fancy. 

Could really go a dupont right now


----------



## sponge

Have you tried the 3726 yet Mark?


----------



## mje1980

Not yet mate, it's still in the fridge. Might try it with a beire de garde brune I have in a cube.


----------



## Samuel Adams

sponge said:


> Have you tried the 3726 yet Mark?


I did 2 Saison's over summer with the Farmhouse strain and they both were fantastic.
One was fermented during a heatwave and got up to 35*c the other sat at 30*c the whole time.
Also one had late hops the other just bittering and you could hardly taste the difference, the yeast is just the king !
Both had heaps of fruity yeast character and went down way too easily on a hot day.


----------



## mje1980

I pitched the 3726 yesterday into my saaz, ding pils saison. 

What sort of fg does it usually get to?. I mashed 90 mins at low 60's so I'm guessing sub 1.010, but keen to know others experience.

Bottled the 3724 saison the other day. Love that yeast but god it makes you wait


----------



## Samuel Adams

From memory mine got down to 1.008 from about 1.050 ish it's a beast yeast (I will check my exact figures on brewmate when I get a chance)

A warning for anyone bottling beer with 3726, it stays in suspension so much that you end up with yeast caked all over the bottle and refuses to wash out with my usual rinse regime.
I will be saving one use throw away bottles for this summers saisons for this reason.


----------



## mje1980

Cheers mate


----------



## sponge

Pretty sure both beers I've made with it finished around 1.008-1.010, so not as crazy as the 3711 or 3724. I'll double check my figures when I get home and let you know.

@Sam Adams, I actually found both beers I made with it went brilliantly clear.. some of the clearest beers I've made. That's fermenting at 22/23'C, brewbrite in the boil and CC'ing for a week. Didn't need gelatine in the slightest.


----------



## Samuel Adams

Yeah sponge I did find that after a while the yeast dropped out and the beers poured really clear. But the bottles were still covered in yeast.

Sorry didn't explain that clearly.


----------



## mje1980

Cheers guys. I'm hoping 90mins at low 60's will push it down to 1.005 or 6. I do like them bone dry.


----------



## mje1980

sponge said:


> Pretty sure both beers I've made with it finished around 1.008-1.010, so not as crazy as the 3711 or 3724. I'll double check my figures when I get home and let you know.
> 
> @Sam Adams, I actually found both beers I made with it went brilliantly clear.. some of the clearest beers I've made. That's fermenting at 22/23'C, brewbrite in the boil and CC'ing for a week. Didn't need gelatine in the slightest.


The farmhouse porter/dark saison was crystal clear, and a beautiful ruby colour. So far my fave of the swap.


----------



## mje1980

That's the problem with case swaps, you're deep down kind of spewing if turns out a cracker, as you miss out. But then if it's no good, you're spewing as well haha.


----------



## sponge

It just makes it more the challenge to pump one out again. I've still got a bottle left so I'll have a sampling this weekend.

As for numbers, both beers were from 1.056 to 1.010, so 82% attenuation. Pretty sure they were both mashed with 55/62/68/72/78'C (15/40/20/15/15min) step mashes as well..


----------



## mje1980

So, after 24hrs at 18, I hit it with the heat belt. It's at high 20's. I checked this morning and it's down to 1.012. These farmhouse yeast strains seem to love high temp abuse haha. Smell of the sample is fruity with some spice. I'm keen to bottle this in champagne bottles and carb the crap out of it.


----------



## Samuel Adams

Samuel Adams said:


> From memory mine got down to 1.008 from about 1.050 ish it's a beast yeast (I will check my exact figures on brewmate when I get a chance)


Exact figures were OG 1.052 FG 1.008 with a 66*c mash temp and 30*c ferment temp


----------



## Donske

Good timing for this thread to rear it's head again.

How stable are the yeast derived flavour/aroma in Saisons, is it the same deal as German wheat beers and we should be drinking them young?

After having a sample of Winkle's Saison Noir and picking his brain on the beer I decided to give something similar a crack, took a cube of dry stout wort with a touch too much roast barley and pitched some Belle Saison, took 2 weeks to hit FG and was kegged yesterday.

The Saison yeast notes are there in the usual doses, and the bready/toasted flavour of the MO base comes through quite well compared to the other half of the brew which was fermented with 1084, but the roast is a bit too apparent for my tastes, it clashes with the yeast derived flavours instead of tying in nicely like it does in Winkle's, it's not undrinkable, but I think it will be much better in a month/6 weeks time as the roast fades a bit.

The yeast has been harvested and thrown at a random cube of APA, 80% MO/20% Biscuit grist, Nelson & Falconer's Flight cube hops to somewhere between 35 and 40 IBUs. I have quite high hopes for this beer, I'm thinking the hops will work well with the yeast (the Nelson in particular).


----------



## mje1980

If you like belle saison, try either the Belgian or French wy strain. The Belgian is a bit fussy but well worth it. Yes, the yeast character will hang around. Maybe even get better !


----------



## Donske

mje1980 said:


> If you like belle saison, try either the Belgian or French wy strain. The Belgian is a bit fussy but well worth it. Yes, the yeast character will hang around. Maybe even get better !



Cheers, good to know, will rotate that keg out for something that is ready then.

I'm a big fan of the WY French strain, it's a cracker, not tried a bad beer that's used it yet.

I only brew a saison or 2 every six months or so as a bit of a palette cleanser, I can live with them being 90% as good as they could be, reckon the Belle Saison is that close to the French strain.


----------



## mje1980

Try a DuPont and see if you think the same


----------



## Batz

I have a saison fermenting away at 30C atm. Wyeast 3726, love the style but I tend to go easy on any spices now, saison is not intended to be a spice soup, the yeast will give you all the flavour you want.

Batz


----------



## mje1980

Yeah, Im no fan of spice in beer. Yeast gives plenty. Trying out the 3726 at the moment myself, same close to 30c. Ding pils n saaz


----------



## mje1980

Seems to have stopped at 1.009. I'm used to 3724 so kinda not ready to call it done yet, but the samples are already starting to clear right up, and it is 85% apparent attenuation ( 1.058 og ). Might give it a few days then bottle on Friday. Smells very fruity. Got a bit of a flu so dunno what it tastes like haha. Into the champagne bottles she goes . Might even do one with no carb sugar, but some funky dregs.


----------



## mje1980

I do love the 3724, but if this turns out as nice as I think it will, this may well be a good complement to the 3724. 3724 for beers I plan on storing a few months, and the 3726 for beers I can turn around quickly. I still think I'll bottle it. As much of a pain it is, I rarely feel like kegged beer now, just way too cold and uninspiring. Might just be a winter thing I guess, I'm sure come the first hot humid day I'll be stinging for a cold blonde ale or something.


----------



## sponge

mje1980 said:


> As much of a pain it is, I rarely feel like kegged beer now, just way too cold and uninspiring. Might just be a winter thing I guess, I'm sure come the first hot humid day I'll be stinging for a cold blonde ale or something.


Just turn the fridge off and serve at ambient. Still get that warm and fuzzy feeling of pulling yourself (a beer).


----------



## mje1980

Turned the heat belt off and left for a few days. Was going to bottle today but I just checked and it's hit 1.007. Hmmm. Really don't want to keg it but I found mold in the bottom of some of my champas bottles. I know it can be cleaned off, but it don't like the thought. Might keg it instead


----------



## hwall95

Just playing with a extract recipe at the moment. Would try an All-Grain one but currently don't have the time to put my system together unfortunately..

My current idea is:

2kg LDME
0.5kg Wheat Malt
0.5kg Candi Sugar, Clear
Magnum - 60min boil for 22 IBU
Wyeast 3724: Belgian Saison.

My current think is that the added the candi sugar will help lower FG since extract is at a stuck fermentability and for a bit of a belgian complexity as well. I wanted mainly to display the yeast esters, so i decided just to use magnum for bittering as I've found that late additions can sometimes overpower the esters produced by the yeast. Being a saison, I would just ferment at ambient, which is currently between 18-26 in Brisbane would should give it some nice esters. Any advice would is welcomed. Cheers


----------



## mje1980

Go for it mate. Be aware 3724 can take up to 6 weeks to finish. It should still finish quite low though. And let it age in the bottle for a while. Try to keep it around 20 the first 24 hrs or so then let it come up.


----------



## seehuusen

hey guys,

what sort of carbonation levels do you suggest for this style of beer?
I've read about 2.0 to 2.5 are good levels?

cheers
Martin


----------



## mje1980

I like high carbonation in champagne bottles. I target 4 vols but again, I use champagne bottles.


----------



## chubbytaxman

I have tried to make one of these recently - was my first crack at a Saison.

Recipe below ...

Expected OG 1.060
Expected FG 1.015
Expected ABV 5.89%
IBU 25
SRM 4

23 Litre batch

Pilsner - 5.44kg
Vienna - 0.455kg
Wheat Malt - 0.455kg

EKG - 4.7 %AA 28g @ 60 mins
EKG - 4.7 %AA 28g @ 30 mins
Strisselspalt - 2.0 %AA 28g @ 0 mins

Lemon peel from about 4 lemons
I had infused these with about a half a cup of Vodka for about 3 months prior (intending to make a cheesecake .... but ... beer called) .. Lol

Wyeast 3711 - French Saison

Mash @ 66*C for 60 mins (I overshot and went 75 mins as I misread my trusty recipe ... DOH !!!

Boil for 60 mins

Ferment @ 20*C (adding the vodka and priming sugar when completed - I was bottling at the time ... )


Add one more fault to this mix - I threw in the lemon zest to the secondary fermenter and didn't take it out until bottling day.

The only fault I could taste in the beer was the zest - I should have taken it out way earlier as I felt it had gone ...... Mildewy (is there such a word ???) from being in the fermenter too long ... If I were to do it again, I would certainly take it out before fermenting.

Came out a bit higher in ABV at 6.5% and finished at 1.006 after a measured OG at 1.056


----------



## chubbytaxman

seehuusen said:


> hey guys,
> 
> what sort of carbonation levels do you suggest for this style of beer?
> I've read about 2.0 to 2.5 are good levels?
> 
> cheers
> Martin


I aimed for 2.4 volumes for this one

Ray


----------



## seehuusen

Thanks, I'll up the priming sugar a little when I bottle it up then 
Sounds good with the zest, I'd probably chuck it into secondary during the last two or three days of cold crashing.
_It'd probably also be very important to not have anything but the zest (no white stuff/pit)_


----------



## aussiebrewer

pat_00 said:


> How does this look? My first Saison recipe....
> 
> I have a bucketload of Victoria's Secret flowers to get through
> 
> Figured the stone fruitiness could suit the dryness of a Saison, or would a more neutral bittering hop be better?
> 
> *out of saison* (Saison)
> 
> Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (°P): 12.4
> Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
> Alcohol (ABV): 4.91 %
> Colour (SRM): 4.0 (EBC): 7.9
> Bitterness (IBU): 27.2 (Average)
> 
> 47.62% Pilsner
> 38.1% Vienna
> 14.29% Wheat Malt
> 
> 0.5 g/L Victorias Secret (16.2% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
> 0.7 g/L Victorias Secret (16.2% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
> 
> Single step Infusion at 63°C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes
> 
> Fermented at 20-25°C with Danstar Belle Saison


Hey mate how did this one Turn out? Was the Vic secret you used the new Australian budding star? I am keen to know the outcome as I have heard using it before whirlpool is not advised. I made a basic pale ale smash with it and turned out rubbish but I used a lot the whole way through 


Cheers 
Matt


----------



## AntonW

I've used it the whole way through and it turned out great, but I didn't use a heap.

I think, for a double batch with OG 1.04something I used 10g for bittering, 15g at 30 min and 20g at 10 min. I would've started chilling the 5 minutes after flameout, and finished about 15 minutes later.


----------



## Redwood

Brewing my first Saison soon and a friend just bought me some sheets of untreated Canadian Cedar (designed to wrap fish or meats in for cooking) from the US. What are your thoughts of throwing a sheet or two into the boil for a slight woody character, along with the usual orange peel etc.?


----------



## seamad

I would guess a bad idea, Most common way to wood a beer is to add some to the fermenter after boiling it/ soaking in vodka etc. That way you can taste each day and pull the wood before it overpowers the beer.


----------



## Redwood

I see, so possibly adding some whilst dry hopping, (after some sort of sterilization of course)


----------



## sp0rk

I would cut into inch wide 4 inch long strips, wrap it in foil and chuck it in the oven at around 220C for 3-4 hours
Pull it out and check the toasting, if it's getting nice and dark, take it off, if not keep going for a bit longer
You can then boil it or soak in vodka before use
You need to toast the oak to bring out certain flavours (oakiness, sweetness, vanilla) otherwise it will just taste like gnawing on wood


----------



## Redwood

Interesting, however I was thinking of using Canadian Cedar, not oak, I know that you should never smoke anything with Cedar, as it has a high sap and turpene content, which gives an unpleasant flavor when burnt or heated too high, so i dont really want to raise the temp on it too much. (hopefully boiling should not effect this) However its natural 'raw' flavor is quite nice, and hopefully will pair nicely with Saison spices.

What i was hoping for was a very slight 'cedar barrel aged flavor', only achieved in an apartment, with a plastic fermenter.

Just an idea anyway....


----------



## sp0rk

I didn't even notice that you said cedar
The only thing I've ever heard of being aged in cedar is sake, apparently japanese cedar gives a minty flavour...
Having a quick browse on some distilling sites and it looks like many cedars give off toxins when soaked, so I don't think I'd be chancing it


----------



## hwall95

I was just wondering, in terms of a historical perspective, how come saisons are brewed at such a high temperature? From what I've read they were originally brewed during winter in Belgium which around 4-8 degrees and then aged for summer, so how come a belgian saison strain like 3724 is so happy to be brewed at 28+ and gift us with its great saison flavours?

I brewed mine at 26-30+ and it loved it and from my tasting from the fermenter, I loved it! Although just wondering why this strain is so great in high temps even though originally it was a winter brew?


----------



## seehuusen

I thought it was brewed in spring, where the temp fluctuations are bigger. Keen to hear an explanation too though


----------



## Spiesy

I believe the history was it was brewed "at the end of the cool season", so you'd imagine sometime in Spring. Not sure how wildly the spring temps fluctuate in that part of Belgium, or at what point in spring fermentation would occur.


----------



## technobabble66

Still no word from Pat_00 on how his brew turned out?


----------



## hwall95

So I started a 750mL starter (will step to 3L) with my washed 3724 from my last belgian saison that turned out great and just planning to do another basic grain bill of 70% pils, 30% wheat and then ferment ambient in the current QLD temperature. However I had a rye saison the other night and loved it and was wondering if anyone has had an success with rye and 3724?


----------



## hwall95

If anyone's wondering, I've decided to go with the following:

OG: 1.055
IBU: 25

4.6kg Belgian Pils - 70%
1kg Rye - 15%
1kg Wheat - 15%
18 IBU @ 60 with Magnum
7 IBU @ cube with EKG
Big starter of re-cultured Wyeast 3724, ferment at ambient shade temperatures


----------



## technobabble66

Looks great. Keen to hear how it goes. Never used it myself

FWIW, there's a short thread that just started to do with rye - Here
Basically the bit i'd pay attention to is milling it very fine (maybe run it through the mill a few times) to get the best flavour out of it; and the problem with stuck sparges, esp when combined with a fair amount of wheat - maybe use rice hulls if you don't BIAB.

Good luck!
(& Report later!)


----------



## Simdop

I've been thinking of doing a saison, aiming for about 5% but thinking of adding a few km of peaches in secondary fermentation. Any thoughts on how that would go? Thinking of putting them through the food processor and then in a grain bag into the fermenter.

Aiming for low IBU's, probably Perle for bittering and a dash of Cascade for aroma.

Think the peaches will blend or get lost?


----------



## hwall95

technobabble66 said:


> Looks great. Keen to hear how it goes. Never used it myself
> 
> FWIW, there's a short thread that just started to do with rye - Here
> Basically the bit i'd pay attention to is milling it very fine (maybe run it through the mill a few times) to get the best flavour out of it; and the problem with stuck sparges, esp when combined with a fair amount of wheat - maybe use rice hulls if you don't BIAB.
> 
> Good luck!
> (& Report later!)


Yeah I BIAB so no problems with stuck sparges here  Currently it's sitting around 1.02 down from 1.062 so no stalls thankfully. It's been fermenting at 28-30 however the weather has 'cooled' down a little bit now so I have a heater and wrapped it in insulation to keep it at 30-32 to help it finish and produce that amazing belgian saison flavour we all love! So far it's tasting pretty spot on to what I wanted! The rye goes so well saisons, can't wait to have it finished and bottled/maybe kegged depending on the beer supply situation..

Will update once it's ready to drink! :chug:


----------



## drunken_snail

hi i have brewed 6 saisons so far, ranging in strength from 5.5 to 8.6% just wondering if anyone has tried higher or lower than this range.

I know this is the approximate style range for this beer. But i was discussing with a mate how good the danstar belle saison yeast was we came to wondering how high did we think the yeast would go and still eat all the sugar.

once my gluten free saison is finished fermenting, i might try super strong saison. just because im curious.

Then i can move on and try making a biere de garde.


----------



## Tahoose

JB made a elderflower Saison that he bought to the vic case swap and I think that was about 4.5%.

Really tasty too.


----------



## heyhey

Just made my first Saison two weeks ago. It smells and tastes really good, nice and fruity (citrus and apricot like), ever so slightly sour (is best way to describe it), but I think I ruined it during milling. It has a husk aftertaste which doesn't stop you putting it down the trap, but leaves a VB sort of taste on the palette after a breathe or two. It's currently in the secondary and will likely be there for about 6 weeks. It's only my 3rd All-Grain home brew, so I'm just playing and understand the ingredients and process a bit better. First time I've milled myself too, so assuming slower speed next time.

Original Gravity (OG): 1.42 (Measured)
Final Gravity (FG): 1.002 (Measured)
Alcohol (ABV): 5.2 % (Measured)
Colour (EBC): 12.9
Bitterness (IBU): 26.8
Batch 23L

3.5kg Pilsner (2 row)
1.0kg Dark Wheat
0.5kg Acid Malt
8g Citra FWH
22g Citra @ 15min
28g Citra @ 0min
Danstar Belle Saison

63*C for 40min
71*C for 15min

60min boil

Ferm 2 weeks at 22*C


----------



## Liam_snorkel

I've done some in the low 4% range, generally awesome. Just bump up the mash temp to account for less grain.


----------



## BrewedCrudeandBitter

We brewed a saison using the Wyeast French saison recently and used a bouquet garni of herbs (think Scarborough Fair) along with a lot of Amarillo in the cube and citra dry hop.

We were a bit sceptical on the herbs but the finished beer was the best thing we had done. Really dry and spicy and way more herby than we thought it would be but not overpowering. Although as it's aged the herbs seem to come out more and a stronger lemon flavour is immediately present. 

The yeast was an absolute beast. Fermented down to 1001 in about 4 days.


----------



## gap

heyhey said:


> Just made my first Saison two weeks ago. It smells and tastes really good, nice and fruity (citrus and apricot like), ever so slightly sour (is best way to describe it), but I think I ruined it during milling. It has a husk aftertaste which doesn't stop you putting it down the trap, but leaves a VB sort of taste on the palette after a breathe or two. It's currently in the secondary and will likely be there for about 6 weeks. It's only my 3rd All-Grain home brew, so I'm just playing and understand the ingredients and process a bit better. First time I've milled myself too, so assuming slower speed next time.
> 
> Original Gravity (OG): 1.42 (Measured)
> Final Gravity (FG): 1.002 (Measured)
> Alcohol (ABV): 5.2 % (Measured)
> Colour (EBC): 12.9
> Bitterness (IBU): 26.8
> Batch 23L
> 
> 3.5kg Pilsner (2 row)
> 1.0kg Dark Wheat
> 0.5kg Acid Malt
> 8g Citra FWH
> 22g Citra @ 15min
> 28g Citra @ 0min
> Danstar Belle Saison
> 
> 63*C for 40min
> 71*C for 15min
> 
> 60min boil
> 
> Ferm 2 weeks at 22*C


No wonder it tastes a bit sour with 500g of Acidulated malt in a 23 L brew.


----------



## heyhey

gap said:


> No wonder it tastes a bit sour with 500g of Acidulated malt in a 23 L brew.


I was wanting it a little more sour than it is. But it's pretty good.


----------



## mofox1

heyhey said:


> I was wanting it a little more sour than it is. But it's pretty good.


Interesting that 10% acidulated didn't affect the mash...


----------



## heyhey

mofox1 said:


> Interesting that 10% acidulated didn't affect the mash...


How would it have affected the mash? 

EDIT: That should've been 2.0kg of Dark Wheat Malt, not 1. So Acid is <10%, but still high


----------



## mje1980

By affecting the ph of the mash ( I believe it drops the mash ph ). 2% is commonly recommended as enough to drop ph levels. Others will know more than me


----------



## peekaboo_jones

I recently had a home brew Saison. One word: Amazing, the best beer I've ever had. I was given this Saison from my sister in-law, whom got it from a work colleague. 
Is it anyone from here? Great brew!


----------



## Tahoose

After explaining the style to a guy at work a couple of hours ago. I was in the mood for a Saison tonight. Going down a treat.

Think I'll have to take him a bottle of this..


----------



## Cocko

Wolfman says - "Anyone can brew a Saison.."

HA!


----------



## hwall95

Update on my rye saison: I bottled it around a week ago and thought I'd give it a try. 




It ended up finishing at 1.008 since I mashed a little high, then gave it a quick cold crash and bottled. It came out really clear despite the young age but it may have something to do with the fact the yeast is second gen and the first gen I didn't cold crash so really only collected the yeast that flocculated easily. 

Taste wise I've found it similar to DuPont but with an added ryeness to it. Although the even though it's currently carbonated and 15% wheat it won't hold a head well... One day I will figure it out. Now to store the rest away for at least a month before next tasting...


----------



## Simdop

I got inspired by this thread so I've got a saison going as well. Very simple grain bill using the 3711. It finished at 1.002 and I'e racked it onto 2kg of yellow peaches that it is currently enjoying. 

Will update you all when I have a final product!


----------



## heyhey

My first Saison, has come out a bit average, so I've done a different one and even with no acid malt has a pretty average taste. Has anyone else used the Belle Saison dry yeast from Danstar? It's the only common thing between my two different Saison batches and they taste similar and not really great IMO. Do Saisons need to mature for long periods of time?


----------



## Killer Brew

I have used it and was really pleased with the taste. Have another ready to go for my next partial. I didn't keep it any longer in the fermenter but did make sure it was at a high temp of minimum 24 degrees.


----------



## heyhey

Well it's been two months and the first one has come 'good' or at least drinkable. It's not really to style, but not far off, but I reckon another month or two to mature it'll be fine. The acid malt is still present, but not a great deal, the yeast seems to provide an odd sour flavour that lingers as my second has the same sour characteristic. The second it still too young, it's tart and once it matures a bit more, I'll blend them as I reckon I can get it to style without much hassle.


----------



## indica86

heyhey said:


> Has anyone else used the Belle Saison dry yeast from Danstar?



Belle has a very big flavour, it tends to dominate all around it.


----------



## heyhey

Yeah, I can't really say I'm fond of it. Very overpowering compared to Saisons I've tried


----------



## peekaboo_jones

Interesting, I've heard mixed stories too. What would be the pick of dry yeasts for a Saison, if not the Danstar?


----------



## anthonyUK

I preferred the MJ M27 Belgian ale over the Danstar Belle.
I wasn't as sour and if you start it low you get a good Belgian ester spiciness without the overpowering bubblegum/solventy ones.

That said the sourness of the Belle does fade well and after 2-3 months is much nicer.


----------



## goatchop41

anthonyUK said:


> I preferred the MJ M27 Belgian ale over the Danstar Belle.
> I wasn't as sour and if you start it low you get a good Belgian ester spiciness without the overpowering bubblegum/solventy ones.
> 
> That said the sourness of the Belle does fade well and after 2-3 months is much nicer.


How low are we talking, seeing as though MJ recommend keeping it between 24-30°C?
I made a hybrid/faux saison with MO instead of pilsner and used the M27, started at 25°C and let it free rise to ~29-30°C. It is weird, I didn't get even a slight hint of what I would call Belgian/saison yeast flavour (spiciness/pepperiness or phenols). Even 3 months down the track now and it hasn't changed. I know the MO is partly to blame for covering some of the yeast flavour, but it still isn't what I expected


----------



## mje1980

Maris otter has no chance of covering up saison yeast character. Odd though


----------



## anthonyUK

goatchop41 said:


> How low are we talking, seeing as though MJ recommend keeping it between 24-30°C?
> I made a hybrid/faux saison with MO instead of pilsner and used the M27, started at 25°C and let it free rise to ~29-30°C. It is weird, I didn't get even a slight hint of what I would call Belgian/saison yeast flavour (spiciness/pepperiness or phenols). Even 3 months down the track now and it hasn't changed. I know the MO is partly to blame for covering some of the yeast flavour, but it still isn't what I expected


I ferment mine as any other ale strain. Start at 18°c and let it rise after 3-4 days. It never gets higher than 24-25°c though but it still fully attenuates.
I use MO pretty much exclusively as a base malt and I can't say it has masked any yeast flavours.
I do mash pretty high though at 68-69°c to maintain body and stop it attenuating down into low single figures which may not be a true Saison but this is how I prefer it.

I have one corny ready now that I made with about a pint of DIY Candi which had some figs in it for around 6 months.
The missus was bugging me to get rid of them as she needed the mason jar so I stuck the Candi syrup in this batch and it comes through really well.

It you taste anything made with M27 side-by-side with a regular ale strain the characteristics are unmistakeable.


----------



## goatchop41

mje1980 said:


> Maris otter has no chance of covering up saison yeast character. Odd though





anthonyUK said:


> I ferment mine as any other ale strain. Start at 18°c and let it rise after 3-4 days. It never gets higher than 24-25°c though but it still fully attenuates.
> I use MO pretty much exclusively as a base malt and I can't say it has masked any yeast flavours.
> I do mash pretty high though at 68-69°c to maintain body and stop it attenuating down into low single figures which may not be a true Saison but this is how I prefer it.
> 
> I have one corny ready now that I made with about a pint of DIY Candi which had some figs in it for around 6 months.
> The missus was bugging me to get rid of them as she needed the mason jar so I stuck the Candi syrup in this batch and it comes through really well.
> 
> It you taste anything made with M27 side-by-side with a regular ale strain the characteristics are unmistakeable.


Yeah, I didn't think that the MO should affect it significantly. But it's just got a realllllllly weird and slightly unpleasant bready flavour to it - I attributed it to the MO, because I used the same batch of grain in a pale ale with M44 yeast, with the same weird flavour standing out (although that one aged out after ~3 months and now tastes fantastic).
If you handed it to me blind and asked me to taste it, I would never guess that it was a saison, or even anything remotely Belgian.

:icon_offtopic: I've actually recently pitched some M27 into an apple cider and it is amazing even after 1.5 weeks in the fermenter. Nice and spicy - I can recognise only a _very slight_ hint of that flavour in the saison, it is overwhelmed by the unidentified off flavour.


----------



## mje1980

Maybe try belle saison?


----------



## goatchop41

mje1980 said:


> Maybe try belle saison?


That's the plan, have got a packet for my next batch. Going to keep it very traditional - mostly pils with a touch of wheat, styrians all the way for hopping. Just need to wait a month or two for it to warm up a bit outside, as I don't have a heating belt/pad


----------



## peekaboo_jones

Sounds good goatchop. 
This weekend I'm bottling my first makeshift Saison:
11L batch size.
1/2 can Coopers Pale Ale
600g dry Briess Bavarian wheat dry malt
150g Crystal Wheat
100g Carapils
10g Amarillo @ 10 mins
10g Chinook @ 10 mins
Dry hop:
6g Chinook 3 days prior to bottling
6g Amarillo 3 days prior to bottling

OG 1038
Danstar Belle Saison yeast rehydrated.
Pitched at 20 deg C, raised by 1.5 every day until 26 deg C and held.
It's now sitting at 1004, will take another hydro tomorrow.
Plan to bulk prime at about 9 or 9.5g/L into champagne bottles


----------



## mje1980

Champagne bottles are a great idea for saison. I won't bottle saison in anything else


----------



## peekaboo_jones

Wife A was in a foul mood today and I didn't have time to prepare for first attempt at bulk priming...
So I just primed with 2x Coopers carb drops, bottled into champagne bottles still and topped up to a nice level with a small funnel after regular bottler stick thingy mjig. Back into brew fridge at 21 deg C.
Tasted nice straight out of the fermenter! Not sour at all


----------



## mofox1

peekaboo_jones said:


> Wife A was in a foul mood today and I didn't have time to prepare for first attempt at bulk priming...


Meanwhile wife B was all honey and kisses and you still would have had to use the carb drops....


----------



## peekaboo_jones

mofox1 said:


> Meanwhile wife B was all honey and kisses and you still would have had to use the carb drops....


Hehe 
And the carb drops worked well for the effort ;-)
Decided to put one in the Glen Ridge last night to chill for a sneaky taste tonight.
Overall: pleasant and very drinkable!
My first Saison along with the Danstar Belle Saison yeast. It's not overly sour, a little bit tart but nice. Quite malty due to the ingredients: pale ale can and dry wheat malt. Next time I'll use a pilsner kit can instead, some wheat dry malt a bit of dextrose to make it dryer and crisper for an excellent summer quaffer.
Could also do with more dry hop QTY's (can't actually smell or taste any)


----------



## A3k

Hi guys,
i'm after a bit of advice after brewing a saison with probably not enough research before making the recipe. I have the wort in cubes while the yeast is building on a stir plate, and i'm considering making some changes as i put it in the fermenter.

i made my recipe based on Raison De Saison i think. But am no concerned that it's not bitter enough, AND too high an OG.

*Questions:*
a) Should i water down a bit. OG of 1.060 seems a bit higher than what i'm looking at on the web. if the yeast gets down to 1.005, it'll be 7.2%.
b) The bitterness is 18IBU (unadjusted for nochill) . should i consider boiling some of the wort and add extra hops to get it to 24IBU
c) should i consider boiling some of the wort and steep extra hops for flavour/aroma?
d) Do i just leave it alone.

as i'm writing this, i'm thinking d) is the best idea, but curious as to what your thoughts are australia 


The following was mashed at 65.
Recipe Specifications


Code:


--------------------------
Boil Size: 62.00 l
Post Boil Volume: 52.00 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 46.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 43.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
Estimated Color: 10.3 EBC
Estimated IBU: 17.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 81.5 %




Code:


Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
10.00 kg              Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC)            Grain         1        83.0 %        
1.10 kg               Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC)          Grain         2        9.1 %         
0.80 kg               White Wheat Malt (4.7 EBC)               Grain         3        6.6 %         
0.15 kg               Caramunich I (Weyermann) (100.5 EBC)     Grain         4        1.2 %         
70.00 g               Hallertauer [4.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min     Hop           5        15.8 IBUs     
30.00 g               Hallertauer [4.40 %] - Steep/Whirlpool   Hop           6        1.2 IBUs      
0.7 pkg               Belgian Saison (Wyeast Labs #3724) [124. Yeast         7        -


----------



## Mickcr250

Looks fine to me mate, bitterness should be pretty spot on if you no chilled and I like my saisons strong. Also wouldn't worry to much about flavour/aroma hops as this style is all about the yeast.


----------



## mje1980

Don't add extra hops. Maybe dry hops. If using 3724, be prepared for a long ferment, and use a heat belt, as this yeast loves it hot, I mean hot, 30c hot. It'll take a while to get to fg, which should be at least 1.005. Be patient, and get ready for a good 4+ week ferment,, but it's an awesome yeast.


----------



## mje1980

I'm just sipping on a saison with 3724 that's about a year old. Unreal, dry and light bodied at 6% haha


----------



## mofox1

mje1980 said:


> Don't add extra hops. Maybe dry hops. If using 3724, be prepared for a long ferment, and use a heat belt, as this yeast loves it hot, I mean hot, 30c hot. It'll take a while to get to fg, which should be at least 1.005. Be patient, and get ready for a good 4+ week ferment,, but it's an awesome yeast.


Eight weeks for mine to go from 1.058 to 1.004, that was at a modest 28* as the max temp from about the second week.

Don't be afraid to push it to low thirties.. you'll get more funk coming through.


----------



## A3k

Thanks guys, i'll leave it as is.

i've heard a lot about this yeast, but decided to take it on none the less.
I ferment in a fridge with heat pad. I have a big starter going, and was planning on pitching at 24, raising 1 degree per day up to 30.

Cheers,
Al


----------



## A3k

[SIZE=10.5pt]Hi guys,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]what OG do people seem to get with 3724. I found lots of varying info on this. Mine was at 1.010 for a week from 1.060 (83%) which seemed good at the time so I kegged it, but now it does seem a bit too sweet for the first few mouthfuls.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]It’s really only the first 3 mouthfuls that seem too sweet, then it is great. It seems to balanced a little over the past few days, but that’s probably just me getting use to it [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]J[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Batch Size (fermenter): 46.00 l[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Estimated OG: 1.060 SG[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Estimated Color: 10.3 EBC[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Estimated IBU: 22.0 IBUs[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Mash Temp: 65C[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Amt Name [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]10.00 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC) 83.0 % [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]1.10 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) 9.1 % [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]0.80 kg White Wheat Malt (4.7 EBC) 6.6 % [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]0.15 kg Caramunich I (Weyermann) (100.5 EBC) 1.2 % [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]70.00 g Hallertauer [4.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 20.3 IBUs [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]30.00 g Hallertauer [4.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 1.7 IBUs [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] Belgian Saison (Wyeast Labs #3724) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Cheers,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Al [/SIZE]


----------



## goatchop41

Al, what temp have you pushing it to late in fermentation? 83% AA is right around Wyeast's specs, but a lot of people ind these saison yeasts eating away to up to 90% AA! If I wasn't kegging, I would be very suspicious of a FG for a saison that wasn't 1.008 or lower. Might have needed to bump it higher to really finish off (I've read of brewers pushing it to 30oC to finish off the last few points).
The other culprit might be your mash temp. I'm with the majority on this one regarding liking my saisons very dry, so I would mash long and low, at ~60-62oC for 90 mins.

Damn, now I want one. Might have to brew one this weekend :icon_drool2:


----------



## A3k

[SIZE=11pt]Yeah I was expecting it to be dryer. I definitely would’ve left it longer if not kegging. I’m considering rasing the temp of the keg and seeing if it drops. I’m not too worried as it is really nice, but thinking about next time. Maybe lower mash next time as you suggested.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]As for temp, I started at 22 then raised temp to 34 by the end. Below are my notes, but I missed a couple of temperature raises toward the end. It spent the last week or so at 34.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Added yeast to 15L on 21/8/15 with wort at 22C - Measured OG = 1.060.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]22nd raised to 23C in morning then 24 at night[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]24th increased temp to 25C[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]25th morning increased temp to 26. Gravity = 1.042[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]25th night. increased to 27. sg at 1.036/8[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]26th arvo increased to 28[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]27th night increased to 29. SG at 1.032. happy it's going down still[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2/9 SG at 1.024 (added an extra degree every week or so until 32C)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]20/9 at 1.010 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]19/3 at 1.010 - chilled to 2C[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]cheers[/SIZE]


----------



## goatchop41

That's a long, slow rise! You certainly have more patience than I!
I haven't done it myself, but have read plenty of others keeping the temp at 22-24 C for the first 3 days, then either just letting it free-rise to ~30 C or increasing by 1-2 C per day until at 30 C and leaving it there for a few days to finish. So about 2 weeks total in the FV before kegging. If I were bottling, I would definitely have bumped up to 32-34 like you to make 100% sure that it was done.
Really, it sounds like you had the temp where it needed to be for a long time. So I'd be looking at the mid-range mash temp that you used as the culprit.

Any plans to brew another in the future? I haven't seen a saison recipe like yours before. Pretty much every single one that I've seen is just pils and wheat malts (anywhere from 50:50 to 80:20 in favour of pils). Is the munich and/or caramunich distinctly noticeable in it?

Temps around here are already in the low 30s, so I'm planning a 50:50 with Belle Saison ASAP, and then also looking at a dark saison too!


----------



## A3k

I'm pretty sure I based it a little on Jamil's recipe from Brewing Classic Styles.

The Munich / Caramunich are from the recipe too. They're not overly noticeable with the yeast flavours.

I think i'll look at brewing another soon enough. I think I'll be looking at 4 - 5% rather than 6.6% I have.

cheers for the feedback


----------



## danestead

A3k said:


> I'm pretty sure I based it a little on Jamil's recipe from Brewing Classic Styles.
> 
> The Munich / Caramunich are from the recipe too. They're not overly noticeable with the yeast flavours.
> 
> I think i'll look at brewing another soon enough. I think I'll be looking at 4 - 5% rather than 6.6% I have.
> 
> cheers for the feedback


I haven't brewed a saison however I'm just looking at Jamil's recipe and he includes some sugar. Did you add sugar? That could be where your last few points went.


----------



## A3k

[SIZE=medium]Yeah I just noticed that too. Would’ve knocked a few points off.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Prior to brewing this, I would’ve thought 1.010 from 1.060 would be sufficient J[/SIZE]


----------



## danestead

A3k said:


> [SIZE=medium]Yeah I just noticed that too. Would’ve knocked a few points off.[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=medium]Prior to brewing this, I would’ve thought 1.010 from 1.060 would be sufficient J[/SIZE]


Adding the % of sugar that Jamil had in his recipe would lower your FG by about 1.5 points according to my calculations. So that's probably your answer.


----------



## mje1980

A3k said:


> Hi guys,
> what OG do people seem to get with 3724. I found lots of varying info on this. Mine was at 1.010 for a week from 1.060 (83%) which seemed good at the time so I kegged it, but now it does seem a bit too sweet for the first few mouthfuls.
> It’s really only the first 3 mouthfuls that seem too sweet, then it is great. It seems to balanced a little over the past few days, but that’s probably just me getting use to it J
> 
> Batch Size (fermenter): 46.00 l
> Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
> Estimated Color: 10.3 EBC
> Estimated IBU: 22.0 IBUs
> Mash Temp: 65C
> 
> Amt Name
> 10.00 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC) 83.0 %
> 1.10 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) 9.1 %
> 0.80 kg White Wheat Malt (4.7 EBC) 6.6 %
> 0.15 kg Caramunich I (Weyermann) (100.5 EBC) 1.2 %
> 70.00 g Hallertauer [4.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 20.3 IBUs
> 30.00 g Hallertauer [4.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 1.7 IBUs
> Belgian Saison (Wyeast Labs #3724)
> 
> Cheers,
> Al


3724 gets very low, but it takes ages and likes it hot. It almost certainly would've gotten lower, it just takes a while. Cranks for a week or two then stops, and slowly finishes off. Warming it right up, 30+c works great. 

I did a 100% dingemans pils saison, mashed at 62c for 90 minutes, and even at 1.004 or something it still is on the sweet side haha, it's just the yeast. Love it


----------



## Charst

The Jamil show episode on saison jamil moans he can never get a saison dry enough. Duponts not the Be all but it is 100% pils, so you can make a great saison without grain complexity. Ditch the caramunich and drop the mash temp. I normally do 60-90 at 62 then raise the temp to 68 for half hour just to ensure conversion.


----------



## A3k

Thanks for the feedback guys. i'll give a lower mash and simpler grains a go next time. still think i'll use the 3724 yeast though.

Mje, do you think there's any point raising the temp of the keg now to try and get some more attenuation? I'm hesitant to, as I don't want to risk what is actually a really nice beer, but I know it could be better next time.

cheers


----------



## mofox1

If it's already kegged, I reckon just leave it.

Mine took 8 weeks @ 28/29 deg using 3724... eventually got down to 1.004. Could have used more 'funk' though. It was recommended that next time I bump the temp past 30 within the first week.


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## goatchop41

Yeah, I've read a lot about getting the temp up early on with 3724 (after only 3-4 days!).

A3k - I'd leave it be too. If it's in the keg, and you're enjoying it currently, may as well knock it off, then make the changes for your next batch!

I might even throw some sugar in mine now, maybe 50-55% pils, 35-40% wheat and 10% table sugar, with Belle Saison, mashed at 60-62 for 90 mins. Should get it dry as a bone!


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## Dementedchook

I'm considering a saison for my next batch, now I usually do about 4kg of pilsner malt, .5kg wheat and whatever yeast in a 23L batch. This time I'm thinking of using rye, but I've never brewed with it, anyone got a good rye saison? I'd like to keep it simple.


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