# Recipe Critique



## PoN (5/8/16)

First ill start off by saying, I am not quite sure what kind of beer this recipe actually is. I am just trying to use up a heap of hops that I have sitting in my freezer so this is a bit of an experiment.

I use a robobrew.

60min mash @65 deg 15 min mash out @75

2kg Pale Malt
2.5kg Vienna Malt
.5kg Wheat
.5kg Carapils

Hops

25g Halletau @ 60min
15g Hallertau @ 15min
15g Saaz @ 15min
10g Hallertau @ 5min
10g Saaz @ 5min

IBU 27.3
EBC 10.3
Est ABV 5.4%

I will be adding 2g of Gypsum and 3mil of lactic acid to bring my mash ph down to around 5.45. This will make my mash water profile around 50ppm Calcium, 13ppm magnesium, 40ppm sodium, 91ppm sulphate, 61ppm chloride and -7ppm bicarbonates.

I will add around .5g of gypsum and .5mil of lactic acid to my sparge wate

I am still not too sure if I want to use a lager yeast or ale yeast or just meet in the middle somewhere and ferment at around 15 degrees with US05.

So critique away, is my hop schedule good? Malt profile ok? What yeast do you reckon I go with?


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## timmi9191 (5/8/16)

Look fine imo. Yeast- depends on your temp control. Go with 05 call it a blonde ale. Go with lager yeast and call it a pilsner


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## manticle (5/8/16)

Fine but too much cara. 

Otherwise good. I used to make a vaguely similar golden ale with tettnanger and 05. Style be damned. She be beer yum made.


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## drsmurto (5/8/16)

How do you have a negative concentration of bicarbonates?


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## Danscraftbeer (5/8/16)

That should make good beer. So tell. What did you do for yeast then?


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## manticle (5/8/16)

DrSmurto said:


> How do you have a negative concentration of bicarbonates?


I'm guessing ~7 rather than -7.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/8/16)

I will be adding 2g of Gypsum and 3mil of lactic acid to bring my mash ph down to around 5.45. This will make my mash water profile around 50ppm Calcium, 13ppm magnesium, 40ppm sodium, 91ppm sulphate, 61ppm chloride and -7ppm bicarbonates.

I will add around .5g of gypsum and .5mil of lactic acid to my sparge wate

I am still not too sure if I want to use a lager yeast or ale yeast or just meet in the middle somewhere and ferment at around 15 degrees with US05.

*So critique away*, is my hop schedule good? Malt profile ok? What yeast do you reckon I go with?


Drop everything before the bold text

You basically have a German-ish ale

Just run with the water you have. dont make the water hard


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/8/16)

PoN said:


> I am still not too sure if I want to use a lager yeast or ale yeast or just meet in the middle somewhere and ferment at around 15 degrees with US05.


Do you want to brew a Lager or an Ale....

How are you going to meet in the middle.. ?....Ferm a Lager at 15*c or ferment an Ale at 15* ..? ...both will give you different beers and different flavours.

If you want to see how, split the batch and ferm 1 with Lager and 1 with Ale at the same temp

Then you will be able to answer you question


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## timmi9191 (6/8/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> . dont make the water hard


Is that done by talky dirty and playing red tube clips to it??


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/8/16)

timmi9191 said:


> Is that done by talky dirty and playing red tube clips to it??


Both


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## PoN (6/8/16)

DrSmurto said:


> How do you have a negative concentration of bicarbonates?


It probably should be 0. -7 is just what the Bru n Water spreadsheet says. I am still self learning about water chemistry.



Danscraftbeer said:


> That should make good beer. So tell. What did you do for yeast then?


Havent made it yet lol.





Ducatiboy stu said:


> I will be adding 2g of Gypsum and 3mil of lactic acid to bring my mash ph down to around 5.45. This will make my mash water profile around 50ppm Calcium, 13ppm magnesium, 40ppm sodium, 91ppm sulphate, 61ppm chloride and -7ppm bicarbonates.
> 
> I will add around .5g of gypsum and .5mil of lactic acid to my sparge wate
> 
> ...


This is my first experiment with water chemistry, I am getting fairly poor efficiency with all my brews. Efficiency picks up if I do darker beers. This lead me to believe that my water profile isnt suited to lower EBC beers as the lighter malts arent making the mash PH acidic enough. When i punch it into Bru n Water without any additions my mash ph comes in at around 5.8. I use a robobrew and have tried a lot of things to pick up my mash efficiency but not much seems to work.



Ducatiboy stu said:


> Do you want to brew a Lager or an Ale....
> 
> How are you going to meet in the middle.. ?....Ferm a Lager at 15*c or ferment an Ale at 15* ..? ...both will give you different beers and different flavours.
> 
> ...


I was perhaps thinking about doing US05 at around 15 degrees, Have heard it has good results at lower temps. Was just a thought.



manticle said:


> Fine but too much cara.
> 
> Otherwise good. I used to make a vaguely similar golden ale with tettnanger and 05. Style be damned. She be beer yum made.


 Do you reckon just drop the cara? Wheat will give it enough as far as head retention goes anyway.



timmi9191 said:


> Look fine imo. Yeast- depends on your temp control. Go with 05 call it a blonde ale. Go with lager yeast and call it a pilsner


My temp control is good for both. I feel like a woman going shoe shopping trying to pick between 2 different shoes. I am thinking of just going with US05. I did ruin a blonde ale last year so this would be another good attempt at it. I also have a lager lagering at the moment. so probably dont need another batch.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/8/16)

Poor efficiency has nothing to do with water

You need to be looking elsewhere rather that trying something that wont work


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## PoN (6/8/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Poor efficiency has nothing to do with water
> 
> You need to be looking elsewhere rather that trying something that wont work


A lot of articles I have read say that a high mash PH effects efficiency. I have tried everything and the only thing that has improved efficiency is darker more acidic malt profiles.


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## Ducatiboy stu (6/8/16)

What eff % are you getting


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## gaijin (6/8/16)

If you're in Ipswich, you're in the Brisbane catchment, so you should have water perfect for red/brown ales. I've brewed plenty of Lagers/Pilsners with great success IMO on Brissy water, so it shouldn't be the issue for your efficiency. The PH won't be out of the range for mashing light base malts.


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## drsmurto (7/8/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Poor efficiency has nothing to do with water
> 
> You need to be looking elsewhere rather that trying something that wont work


Particularly given mash pH is predicted, not measured.

If you think mash pH may be the problem the simplest thing to do is to measure it.

I'm still astounded by how many people take these predictors as gospel rather than actually measuring pH themselves.

Edit - if a piece of software predicts a negative concentration for a chemical it is either a poorly written piece of software or the authors don't understand basic science.


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## PoN (7/8/16)

I use a robobrew

So any lighter coloured beers I struggle to hit 50% total efficiency(mash efficiency around 60%) Darker beers I hit 60% total efficiency (mash efficiency 70%)

So far I have tried:

Different sources for grain and finer milled grain
Recirculating every 10-15 minutes
Longer mash time
Stirring the mash every 10-15 minutes
Using more water in my mash
Using less water in my mash
Different mash temperatures
Larger grain bills
Smaller grain bills

My brew process is exactly the same as other people with a robobrew that I have discussed this with. 

This is why I was of the opinion that my water, being high in bicarbonates could be why I get poor efficiency for lighter beers. The water profiles I have seen for Ipswich are different to the Brisbane ones I have seen. I also have some ph strips to get a ballpark figure for when I brew this.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/8/16)

You are needing to raise eff by a fair bit if your only getiing 50-60 %

I doubt mash Ph will adjust it as far as you need to

I would be looking at your sparging fairly closely


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## Lethaldog (7/8/16)

^^ I agree !
How quickly do you get through a sparge? 
Are you controlling the speed of the flow? I found this very important when I first started!
Do you measure the end of your sparge as in discontinue when it gets down to 1.010 or do you just run through till you satisfied with volume?
What sort of volumes are you running through how much grain?

Lots of factors there? 
As far as mash ph goes I am deffinately no scientist and I don't yet know how to play around with my water profile toooo much but I do use 5.2 since I was recommended it years ago and found that my efficiency did get better but not by the sort of numbers your talking there, I used to be around the 75% now would be consistently about 82% going by Beersmith and hitting all targets correctly!


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## paulyman (7/8/16)

I'd be looking at:

1) Temperature - Have you got a trusted thermometer to check that the robobrew is actually hitting the temps it says it is?

2) Volumes - How are you measuring volumes? The original robobrew didn't have volume markings.

If there are any local all grainers near by maybe they can swing by on brew day with a set of grain scales and help you adjust the volumes in the robobrew accurately. You just pop it on the scales, it's small enough to fit. Tare it and add water in 5L increments and use a permanent marker to add your volume marks.

I think these two factors are the most likely to be the cause of your efficiency issues. Followed by sparge issues as above.


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## PoN (7/8/16)

I do get through my sparge fairly quick and I sparge until I reach the volume I am aiming for. The malt pipe in the robobrew seems to run the sparge water through pretty fast and I do it as per the instructions. 

The mash temp seems to always be a few degrees lower than what the thermostat reads on the robobrew. But even if it's set at 66 degrees but the actual temp is 62 degrees, my efficiency should still be ok.

My robobrew has the volumes marked on it.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/8/16)

PoN said:


> *I do get through my sparge fairly* quick and I sparge until I reach the volume I am aiming for. The malt pipe in the robobrew seems to run the sparge water through pretty fast and I do it as per the instructions.


There is your problem


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## contrarian (7/8/16)

There's a lot of factors that contribute to mash efficiency and water chemistry is probably the last place to look rather than the first. 

That said if you want to rule pH out try adding 2-3% of acidulated malt to your grain bill and see if it does anything.


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## PoN (7/8/16)

Water chemistry has pretty much been the last place I have looked.

Any ideas on how to not do a quick sparge with a robobrew? Not too sure what I can do differently. I pour my strike water in so its just covering the mash and it just flows through really quick.


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## Lethaldog (7/8/16)

I've never used a robobrew so I can't help you there, I mash in a 10 gallon Rubbermaid cooler and just use the ball lock tap to adjust flow, can you rig up some sort of tap to adjust flow to these?

Edit: haven't these got a tap on the front? Can you not adjust flow rate with this?


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/8/16)

What is a Robobrew..?

Sparg should take as long as mashing, especially if batch sparging. Fly sparging take a bit less time


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## Lethaldog (7/8/16)

I'm not really sure but I think it's like another version of a grainfather!


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## PoN (7/8/16)

https://onlinebrewingsupplies.com/media/catalog/product/cache/6/image/470x605/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/2/1240robo2.jpg

That's the set up for a robobrew when sparging. The malt pipe is on top and you just pour water into it which flows into the main vessel. There is no tap to control the flow.


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## manticle (7/8/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> What is a Robobrew..?
> 
> Sparg should take as long as mashing, especially if batch sparging. Fly sparging take a bit less time


Do you mean the other way round?


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/8/16)

I dont fly sparge, only batch, and I let the sparge water sit for 10-15 mins with the occasional stir before running off. Do that 3-4 times and it takes a good hour to do 28-30L

Gets me 80%


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## timmi9191 (7/8/16)

PoN said:


> https://onlinebrewingsupplies.com/media/catalog/product/cache/6/image/470x605/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/2/1240robo2.jpg
> 
> That's the set up for a robobrew when sparging. The malt pipe is on top and you just pour water into it which flows into the main vessel. There is no tap to control the flow.


Could you leave the malt pipe in, drain the wort slowly out of the tap. Close tap and refill with the sparge water and give a stir/recirc for a bit. Drain slowly again. Repeat those steps until you hit your pre boil volume??


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/8/16)

An also measure for runnings to see what SG you are getting

Each running with be less and less


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## manticle (7/8/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I dont fly sparge, only batch, and I let the sparge water sit for 10-15 mins with the occasional stir before running off. Do that 3-4 times and it takes a good hour to do 28-30L
> 
> Gets me 80%


OK. Similar story with me but I only do 2-3 batch sparges and my mash often exceeds 60.


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## Danscraftbeer (7/8/16)

PoN
If you care enough you will get a decent PH meter with calibration fluids. Use it properly.
I'd say around +/- 2% Acidulated malt to your grains could be the fix keeping it simple.
Sparging carefully as well. I feel glad to have Melbourne water on tap. Its around pH 7.2. After my filter its about pH 6. So its coming down to very small amounts of water chemistry now.
Don't go crazy with water chemistry additions. I think the pH is more the key to it all but with some moderate mineral levels in the water as well.
$0.02


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## timmi9191 (7/8/16)

Danscraftbeer said:


> If you care enough you will get a decent PH meter with calibration fluids. Use it properly.
> I'd say around +/- 2% Acidulated malt to your grains could be the fix keeping it simple.
> Sparging carefully as well. I feel glad to have Melbourne water on tap. Its around pH 7.2. After my filter its about pH 6. So its coming down to very small amounts of water chemistry now.
> Don't go crazy with water chemistry additions. I think the pH is more the key to it all but with some moderate minerals in the water as well.
> $0.02


Some slight corrections Dan:

Mash Ph not water ph is the key.

Melbourne water does vary greatly my water report claims a ph of 7.5 but out of the tap is currently 8.1

Mineral additions as required to create the desired water profile


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## Danscraftbeer (7/8/16)

Agreed. Every mash I make lately is pH 5.2 Pilsners to Stouts.
Its all about getting a feel for it out of experience. I have also noticed the variation of pH in my tap water. I've never seen my tap water as high as pH8 though. In the end. I must say I use filtered water for all. Then add some very small additions of Calciums and Epsom salt. The variation in my filtered water has read between pH 5.2 to 6.2. So on brew day I may make a small adjustment to the Acidulated malt.
Or with a dark grain heavy mash a tiny bit of baking soda to raise the mash to pH 5.2.
Sparge with filtered water at pH6.

Actually I have gone to mixing the moderate powdered mineral additions through all the water used. I think that's just being fastidious but maybe not. :chug:


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## PoN (7/8/16)

When you guys talk about efficiency do you mean from pre boil to what you end up in the bottle/keg or do you just mean mash efficiency?

Robobrew has 3.5L of deadspace and fermentor has 1-1.5L of deadspace so that takes about 17% off your total efficiency.

With my darker beers I am hitting 70% mash efficiency, but once i calculate what I end up with in the bottle i'ts more like 55% total efficiency.

In saying that I am still usually around 10 points of my target gravities.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/8/16)

Mash eff


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## TheWiggman (7/8/16)

Fly sparging quickly will kill mash efficiency regardless of the system. The sparge water needs to spend some time in contact with the grains to carry the sugars with it, otherwise you will risk channeling and leave lots of sugars in the mash. Before venturing too far extend the sparge process out to 45 mins and see if the efficiency goes up. Do you check runoff gravity? If it's really low before your target volume, say <1.008, then you can be sure that's the issue. 
Additionally, back off on the acids until you have a grasp on the [measured] pH. Salts, different story as long as you know the source water (as they will contribute to flavour but affect pH. Flavour you CAN measure). 
As above no need for carapils as the wheat will perform the same task. The wheat however will lend a flavour to the beer, so go either but not both. 300g carapils in a recipe that size it about right.


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## PoN (8/8/16)

If that's the case then I am going to need another vessel to drain my wort into. I'll then be able to leave the malt pipe in the kettle for the sparge.

So I may as well have spent my money on a 3V system rather than a robobrew.

Seems like a waste of money now.

If sparge water needs to stay in contact with the grain so much then why did these guys design a system like this where sparging takes 15 minutes at the most. Seems like a rort now.


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## timmi9191 (8/8/16)

Slow the flow of the sparge water into the malt pipe


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## TheWiggman (8/8/16)

Hang on... the Robobrew looks like a budget Braumeister in that there is no _need_ to sparge if you do a full volume mash. A lot of brewers do anyway for a few extra points (as do BIABers).
I'm not knowledgeable with this system. What volume do you mash in at? Say you're doing a 23l brew with 5kg of grain, do you start by heating ~28l of strike water and then do minimal sparging/rinsing to 'top up' to your desired pre-boil volume? Of would you start with 20l and use 8-10l of sparge water?


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## PoN (8/8/16)

For 5kg of grain, the general consensus is a 20L mash in.

If the grain absorbs 5L of water then you will have about 15L of wort when you are ready to sparge, for a 19-20l (probably the upper limit of brew size with this seystem) brew you want a pre boil volume of around 26-27Litres so sparge volume ends up at around 12 Litres.

The robobrew is designed to sparge.

I have never tried a full volume mash before, so do you think I should try mashing with 25L or so of water and only do a small sparge?


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## droid (8/8/16)

you may have to be mindful of pH but maybe doing it in a bag changes that


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## TheWiggman (8/8/16)

Considering you're getting efficiency issues (this seems to have gone off topic sorry) you haven't got much to lose by varying your process. In a single-vessel system there is no _need_ to sparge per-se but it's a common practice to get a few extra points out of the brew. If you mash in with too small a ratio (i.e. <1.5l/kg) you will run into more trouble that if you have a high ratio. There are exceptions of course but for a standard ale, full volume is 100% fine.
I would meet it halfway and do exactly as you say. Though looking at post #17 you sound like you've done quite a lot with the exception of recirculation (which isn't necessary if others are getting different results with the same process). I would still challenge how water pH could have that much of an impact on efficiency. 5% maybe, but 25%... can't see it.


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## droid (8/8/16)

just to clarify - my reference to pH is about it's affect on the profile of the beer not eff


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## contrarian (8/8/16)

You need to think about this more like BIAB than 3v brewing where your sparge is to get desired volume more than for efficiency. 

You can try a longer mash, around 90 minutes is what I normally use. Also when you do sparge what water temp are you using? 

Definitely try a few % of acidulated for lighter beers. From what you have said this should help. 

I'm sure you can improve the efficiency of your system without adding more vessels. Or at least get your light beers up around the same level as your darker beers.


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## PoN (8/8/16)

Water to grain ratio in this system is a lot different to a 3v system due to the malt pipe. I run with 4L/kg which is probably way too much in a 3v set up, but because your grain is contained in a smaller malt pipe in the robobrew the mash thickness is still quite thick and would probably be similar to 2.5L/kg in your standard mash tun.

Sparge water temp is 75 degrees.

So i am going to try a fuller mash with my next brew with minimal sparge. As you said it's essentially BIAB except the bag is the malt pipe.


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## timmi9191 (8/8/16)

isnt there a dedicated robobrew problem and guideline thread??


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## PoN (8/8/16)

Yeah. This didn't begin as a robobrew thread though.


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## Rocker1986 (9/8/16)

PoN said:


> I use a robobrew
> 
> So any lighter coloured beers I struggle to hit 50% total efficiency(mash efficiency around 60%) Darker beers I hit 60% total efficiency (mash efficiency 70%)
> 
> ...


The red section could be an issue too. This is just from my own experience of brewing BIAB with an urn, but I found finer milled grain didn't work as well. My efficiency jumped quite a bit when I started milling the grains a lot more coarsely, so that might be worth a shot as well. Haven't had any issues with the water at my place so far; I generally hover around 75% brewhouse efficiency for most batches.


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## PoN (10/8/16)

Ok so I brewed this today with a slight adjustment

2.5kg JWM Ale malt
2.5kg JWM vienna
.5kg Wheat
.15kg caramalt

1g gypsum 
1ml Lactic Acid 
(decided to go with less additions for the first time with water chem)

Tested Ph 15min into mash and it was 5.5. Albeit with test strips but whatever.

Went with a 75min Mash @66 and 15min Mash out @ 75

Also went with a 23L: mash instead of 20L with a 9.5L sparge insted of a 12-13L sparge.

So far my mash efficiency is at 64% so a good 10-15% higher than previous lighter malt brews. 

There is fairly significant improvement, but still below where I want to be.


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## timmi9191 (10/8/16)

Glad you have found some improvements, but I think you could still achieve better eff.

If you are so inclined, brew the same beer again. Whats the max volume you can mash in the robobrew? Try a max volume mash for 90 mins.

Then drizzle the sparge water through the malt pipe as slow as possible. Try a saucepan lid or similiar to push down on the grain and squeeze the last of the wort from the malt pipe.

Get that Ph down a few more points. Use the Bru'n water spreadsheet, this should get Ph right on and also imporove the water profile for the beer type.

Try it and see what the eff is.

Just my $0.02


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## PoN (10/8/16)

Well i did 23L today could easily do 26-27L mash, that would only require a 5L sparge.

I do plan on adding more salts and acids to my next brew, Bru n water did seem pretty accurate with where my mash ph would be at. Just wanted to test it out this time and not overshoot it.


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## drsmurto (10/8/16)

PoN said:


> Ok so I brewed this today with a slight adjustment
> 
> 2.5kg JWM Ale malt
> 2.5kg JWM vienna
> ...


What was the pH before you added the gypsum and lactic acid?


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## PoN (10/8/16)

Not sure. Added it just before I added the grain. Bru n Water estimated it at 5.8 without any salt or acid additions.


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## Rocker1986 (10/8/16)

It would be worth measuring the pH more than relying on software estimates. I've never bothered with mine because my efficiency is fine, although I have noted an increase in efficiency when using a small amount of acid malt in pale beer grists.

In any case, I agree with Timmi, 64% mash efficiency is very low, this could be improved another 20% easily. My mash efficiency is usually in the mid-high 80s without doing anything spectacular.


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/16)

Personally, I would get your efficiency up before playing with water.

There are so many things that affect eff %, and water is only a small part ( a very small part )

I never treated my water ( except the odd occasion when doing a Burtonised English Bitter ) and could get 80% with 3v AG without touching my water, which was mostly rain water


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## drsmurto (10/8/16)

PoN said:


> Not sure. Added it just before I added the grain. Bru n Water estimated it at 5.8 without any salt or acid additions.


This i don't understand. How do you know if you have a mash pH problem if you don't measure it?


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/16)

DrSmurto said:


> This i don't understand. How do you know if you have a mash pH problem if you don't measure it?


I dont think he has a pH problem. He has a process problem

Get the process sorted before even think about water. Dont wag the dog


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## drsmurto (11/8/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I dont think he has a pH problem. He has a process problem
> 
> Get the process sorted before even think about water. Dont wag the dog


I agree. I think mash pH is rarely a problem for any brewer as so few actually measure it, instead relying on a calculated value. Those that do use handheld meters or strips that are marginally better than using your finger to measure pH.

Also, it is vastly more important to get your efficient to a consistent value than it is to strive to get it higher. My efficiency is low compared to a lot of brewers but for nearly 9 years i hit 70% on the nose every time i brew a 'standard' beer.


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## PoN (11/8/16)

I assumed I had a mash ph issue because my water is very high in bicarbonates. Bru n water software supported this.

As I have said, water chemistry has been my last resort because there isn't much more I can do.

My process has been exactly the same as every YouTube video, manufacturers instructions etc that I have seen. Which has not been working. 

The only thing to really try now is a full volume mash, which I have never seen anyone do with a robobrew. I also am not the only one who can't get more than 60-65% out of this system. (65% is an awesome result for me btw considering my previous best has been 60% and worst was at 37%, most are around 48%)

If a moderator wants to merge the robobrew posts into the robobrew thread go for it btw.


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## Coodgee (11/8/16)

there's little point pulling your hair out over efficiency. Brewers (myself included) are an obsessive bunch. we get fixated on some "fault" in our process but sometimes it's just easier to just RDWHAHB. lower efficiency is just another kilo of grain... $4...


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## drsmurto (11/8/16)

PoN said:


> I assumed I had a mash ph issue because my water is very high in bicarbonates. Bru n water software supported this.
> 
> As I have said, water chemistry has been my last resort because there isn't much more I can do.
> 
> ...


Apologies PoN, it wasn't a crack at you but at a general approach to brewing on this forum and others where people rely on a spreadsheet to come up with what is a very important aspect of brewing. Very few people measure it. 4/5ths of FA understand it. There are plenty of very good books on this topic, the late Dr George Fix's 'Principles of Brewing Science' is a good introduction. Once you've got a clear understanding, Brewing: Science and Practice is the next step but that can be quite chewy. One take home message for me is - search BS&P for the term 'alkalinity'. In over 800 pages the word appears twice. Not one mention of the term 'residual alkalinity'. The conclusion i draw from this is that residual alkalinity is a made up term in the homebrewing community.

Water chemistry is indeed a very complicated area, I've been a chemistry researcher for >20 years and am still constantly learning. In my opinion, the spreadsheets circulating that calculate water chemistry values do not take in to account the buffering capacity of the mash itself nor do many people including those who call themselves scientists, understand the basic concept of an equilibrium. What happens is an engineer comes up with a way of calculating something without the fundamental understanding of the underlying chemistry.

Rant over, **** i need a coffee and possibly a pint of RIS.


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## PoN (11/8/16)

lol no need for apologising, I am taking everything on board trust me. I know you are quite experienced and are well known amongst home brewers and I reckon everyone has brewed at least one of your recipes. 

I am just a little frustrated at the robobrew system atm, I am kind of now wishing I spent the money on a 3V system. (assuming its the robobrew's fault and not mine)


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/16)

Coodgee said:


> there's little point pulling your hair out over efficiency. Brewers (myself included) are an obsessive bunch. we get fixated on some "fault" in our process but sometimes it's just easier to just RDWHAHB. lower efficiency is just another kilo of grain... $4...


Efficiency is not what you really want to chase

As the good Dr S stated earlier, it is consistency you want. If you are not consistent then you are doing something wrong

Getting upward of 80+% takes a lot of hard work and brews to get there so dont beat yourself to death that you cant reach high % points...beat yourself to death if you cant get consistancly


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## timmi9191 (11/8/16)

What Stu said. You can still brew great beer at 60% eff.

All rigs require tuning. I went from 85% BIAB to 55% for my first 3v brew. 3v Rig is now tuned and I consistantly hit numbers at 78% eff for double bath size.

Read the robobrew thread and find what other robobrewers are doing. Follow their tips and tricks

It will all come together with time.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/16)

PoN said:


> *My process has been exactly the same* as every YouTube video, manufacturers instructions etc that I have seen. *Which has not been working.*


Well do something different. They only way I got better efficiency was basically "******* around with it " until I could hit 80% pretty easy

But it did not come overnight

Try different things that are not in the rule book. You will be surprised at what you learn


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## Coldspace (11/8/16)

Do you recirculate through your mash with the robo brew like I do with the GF?

I agree, stuff the water chemistry ATM. check crush and temps

Maybe there is temp issues through the mash.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/16)

Crush is important

And from what I have gathered is, each system needs a specific crush to get max eff. My 26ltr false bottom esky loved a crush with 20-30% flour, and also pre conditioning grains

BIAB does not like a lot of flour, but likes gains that have been conditioned - mainly due to the extra in whole husks helping mashing and draining

Same as each system needs a different sparge routine

You gain your efficiency thru sparging - which is basically rinsing the sugars out of the grain

Nearly all modern malts convert within 30mins, but a 60min mash is good practice

Very rarely in 10yrs have i heard anyone complain about conversion in mashing


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## Rocker1986 (11/8/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Crush is important
> 
> BIAB does not like a lot of flour, but likes gains that have been conditioned - mainly due to the extra in whole husks helping mashing and draining


Definitely noticed a difference in my BIAB system in regards to grain crush. I used to get a lot of flour with my old mill rollers, but since getting the replacement roller and moving to a coarser crush with very little flour, my efficiency has gone up. I don't condition my grains but haven't found a need to since the mill was fixed. I did do it a few times with the old roller to get the bloody thing to pull them through properly though, and widened the mill gap to stop it getting stuck. ******* almost an hour to mill a few kg of grains without doing that :blink: I think it did cause the efficiency to jump a bit, but my memory isn't great on that.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/16)

Rocker1986 said:


> I don't condition my grains but haven't found a need to since the mill was fixed. I did do it a few times with the old roller to get the bloody thing to pull them through properly though, and widened the mill gap to stop it getting stuck. ******* almost an hour to mill a few kg of grains without doing that :blink: I think it did cause the efficiency to jump a bit, but my memory isn't great on that.


Conditioning does work, *BUT *you have to get it right

*100mls - 5Kg*

All mills are different, all systems are different

Unfortunately many brewers forget to bother to dial in their system and rely on some stupid app, and because they dont dial in, they dont get the expected results 

Still has nothing to do with water profile and the OP question


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## manticle (12/8/16)

DrSmurto said:


> Apologies PoN, it wasn't a crack at you but at a general approach to brewing on this forum and others where people rely on a spreadsheet to come up with what is a very important aspect of brewing. Very few people measure it. 4/5ths of FA understand it. There are plenty of very good books on this topic, the late Dr George Fix's 'Principles of Brewing Science' is a good introduction. Once you've got a clear understanding, Brewing: Science and Practice is the next step but that can be quite chewy. One take home message for me is - search BS&P for the term 'alkalinity'. In over 800 pages the word appears twice. Not one mention of the term 'residual alkalinity'. The conclusion i draw from this is that residual alkalinity is a made up term in the homebrewing community.
> 
> Water chemistry is indeed a very complicated area, I've been a chemistry researcher for >20 years and am still constantly learning. In my opinion, the spreadsheets circulating that calculate water chemistry values do not take in to account the buffering capacity of the mash itself nor do many people including those who call themselves scientists, understand the basic concept of an equilibrium. What happens is an engineer comes up with a way of calculating something without the fundamental understanding of the underlying chemistry.
> 
> Rant over, **** i need a coffee and possibly a pint of RIS.


BSP's problem is not its chewiness, it's the asking price. The chewiness is what you want in a tome of that nature.


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## PoN (12/8/16)

OK, well I get my LHBS to do the crush for me so I am not too sure how fine they do it. I do notice that there is some flour in the crush but it doesnt seem like too much. 

I might ask them next time to see if they can do it slightly coarser. What exactly should I ask them? What size crush should I look at?


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/8/16)

Try a more coarse crush and a finer crush and see what happens

At the end of the day you will still end up with beer


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## PoN (22/8/16)

Ok today I brewed the Tower 10 IPA which got posted in this forum the other day.

My mash volume was 27L with a total of 6.4kg grain bill. This was the absolute limit of the robobrew, the mash was lapping at the very top. I mashed for 75min @ 66 and 15min @75

After the mash there was 21L of wort so I sparged 6 Litres bringing the pre-boil volume to about 27 Litres. Once again, 27L pre boil volume is reaching the limits of the robobrew.

Pre boil gravity was 1.054 this makes a mash efficiency of 76% (12%more than my last brew which was my previous best for efficiency)

Total efficiency ended up at 70% also smashing my previous best.

Looks like a bigger volume mash and less sparge is the way to go.


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## Rocker1986 (22/8/16)

Use that exact process again on your next brew that is of a lower gravity, or just all brews for that matter, if it's improving things. Bigger grain bills like that usually result in a bit less efficiency, so you may well find with a more 'standard' sized grain bill that your efficiency jumps again.

For example, on batches targeting an OG in the mid-high 1.040s, I normally get about 75-77% total efficiency, but when I brew big beers like IPAs or heavy stouts, it drops about 10%. Process remains the same in all cases though, apart from maybe mash temperature.


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