# Tell The Truth



## Huhness (15/2/08)

I have had plenty of K&K HB beer before some done well some not so well.. :blink: 

I've never had a AG HB before (Not even a partial!)

And all you AG guys seem really turned off these lovely cans of goop.. 

Is it really that good? Is it like turning to the dark side? Turning your back on the goop? Is it really better than commercial beer??

Tim :beer:


----------



## Lobsta (15/2/08)

oh jeez you have opened up a big ol' can of worms there Huhness... ive only done one k+k brew and never tasted an AG, but i know how into their AG brews some of the guys on here get. get ready for some BIG replies  

Lobby


----------



## sah (15/2/08)

I'll make two points.

1. If you go all grain, you get serious about brewing. You become more knowledgeable, your skills improve, your process improves. This alone leads to you making much better beer, even if you were to use goop.

2. All grain gives you complete control over the recipe. You get to experiment and make beers to your liking. You attempt to brew styles from all around the world. You use lots of hops. You use interesting specialty grain. You use better yeast. Things the goop mentality doesn't give you the freedom to do.

However, take away a good all grain brewer's mash tun and give them malt extract, speciality grain and all the other things they would normally use and they'll be able to make really really fantastic beer.

All grain brewing isn't just about departing from the goop, it's an educational journey.

regards,
Scott


----------



## Huhness (15/2/08)

Lobsta said:


> oh jeez you have opened up a big ol' can of worms there Huhness... ive only done one k+k brew and never tasted an AG, but i know how into their AG brews some of the guys on here get. get ready for some BIG replies
> 
> Lobby



haha thats fine i'm interested to know more about differences in K&K and AG



SAH said:


> I'll make two points.
> 
> 1. If you go all grain, you get serious about brewing. You become more knowledgeable, your skills improve, your process improves. This alone leads to you making much better beer, even if you were to use goop.
> 
> ...



Thanks scott!


----------



## mika (15/2/08)

Biggest thing is the time input, not so much on brew day coz once you get it down pat you can mow the lawn while mashing etc, but there is a lot of prep work that goes into it...at least in my brewing. So it becomes a bit of a personal choice as to whether you want to spend that much time into making beer rather than drinking beer.
Personally, I love the science/engineering behind it all so it was a logical progression fo me. To answer more directly your original question, I must say, your definition of hop and malt taste expands exponentially when you brew All Grain. Yes it is the Dark side, but it's better over here.


----------



## johnno (15/2/08)

I do it for the taste. It is so much better than cans, for me anyway.

As soon as I tried my first AG which was in a LHBS I was converted and knew that I had to do it.

cheers
johnno


----------



## browndog (15/2/08)

If you *really* love beer, then when you taste your first AG it will be like a religous experience (whatever that may be). If you *really* love beer, you will suddenly realise what god put you on earth to do. And that is make and drink AG beer. Find a local AG brewer and get into it.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (15/2/08)

Out of interest, some time late last year, I made a K&K brew to see if I could make one better than those I made before discovering the One True Way.

It was definitely substantially better beer than any of my previous K&K brews. I had clearly learned stuff in my grain brewing escapades that improved my ability to make dump&stir beer. It was not however anywhere near as good as my grain beers.

There are plenty of analogies you can draw upon:
Automatic versus manual motor vehicles.
Making a curry from raw ingredients versus buying a jar of Patak's.
Installing Windows on a laptop computer versus managing several thousand seats...

It's all good and one takes more time and skill than the other. It depends on what you want to get out of the exercise.

I like drinking beer. I like the process of making beer from grain. I find myself drinking beer made from grain. What's not to like?


----------



## PostModern (15/2/08)

I have been AG brewing for about 14 months now. I used to partial mash and made the odd kit along the way. My last kit was 15 months ago.

I have to say that while partial mashing, my Mrs (my super-critic) would occassionally turn up her nose at some batches. Since going AG, I think there was one whacky out of balance beer that she didn't like. As long as you're not an idiot and make completely wrong, out of balance beers, or have some major faults in technique or gear, it's pretty hard to make bad beer with AG. There are just degrees of good.


----------



## Adamt (16/2/08)

To sum it up....

Kit and kilo is powdered soup.

AG is gourmet soup with home-made stock, fresh ingredients and TLC.

Sure you can make some good powdered soups with a few extra ingredients, better brands etc, but they're still powdered soups and are pale in comparison to restaurant quality soups.


----------



## Jim_Levet (16/2/08)

Turning a can of goop into a drinkable beer is like trying to turn Beef Jerky back into steak!
I can't remember how many times I heard that pitch before I came over to the dark side!
James


----------



## Huhness (16/2/08)

Thanks guys!!

Keep the comments coming!!! I do love beer! i've never been much of a spirits person..

Reading more on here i also see some of the beer i enjoy even including Kronenbourg which i consider my favourite! ranks quite low on your lists..  

Can someone also recommend some good unique beers which rate well??


----------



## bugwan (16/2/08)

I can't decide which part of appreciating beer is my favourite...the ritual of brewing or the drinking.

5 hours to yourself (or perhaps a couple of mates), smelling the glorious aroma of sweet, sweet malt, producing the best damn beer you've enjoyed in a long time...now that's the way to spend a weekend...!

If the idea of 'slaving' over a hot stove and measuring out ingredients sounds like a chore to you, then maybe draw the line at K&K or partials. AG isn't for everyone, it takes time, dedication, enthusiasm and a bit of cash. If you're happy with the beers you already produce and you're not interested in the extra work, then give AG a miss.

From my perspective, AG is the finest 'hobby' anyone could ever have. It's a science, cum art, cum passion. It's as individual as the brewer and his equipment/technique. Brew clubs quite often run programs where the exact same brew is run through similar equipment by different brewers....and guess what? Very different beer results every time. It's s passion you need to give time to, but you don't need to be a bachelor or a super geek to get it right.

Give AG a bash - you can do it with a stove-top, a plastic bucket and a fermenter (surely you already have most of that). Taste the difference - is it reasonable? Do you want it to taste better or are you happy with your beer already?

So many questions...none of which I can answer!

Good luck


----------



## Brownie (16/2/08)

Can't imagine why its only when you start brewing all grain that your brain suddenly changes and then allows you to use hops and better yeast and of course experimenting with variations on a theme.

That all sounds very much like a huge pile of mumbo jumbo.

I would like to know what the chemical or neuro pathway that changes to allow this metomorphasis to occur when one touches a mash tun or a grain mill....please tell me.

I am a K&K Brewer, for many reasons this is probably where I'll stay for many years to come (maybe one day i'll convert). But even though I haven't touched all grain brewing I experiment.

I try different yeasts, different hops, different adjuncts, basically I well...experiment

I like the beer I make, may not live up to the expectations of some, but I like...so I am happy.

So I think anyone who thinks that just by touching a bit of grain you become some brewing god...I say wake up and get your hand off it.....

I understand my position will not be welcomed by some...but well I thought home brewing beer was about doing something you love doing and making beer YOU like to drink...oh and having FUN doing it.....

Have a nice day.

P.S. I thought real brewing was when you opened a can of goo with a rusty old can opener and threw it all into watever container you could find and added a shitload of sugar........


----------



## Batz (16/2/08)

Brownie said:


> P.S. I thought real brewing was when you opened a can of goo with a rusty old can opener and threw it all into watever container you could find and added a shitload of sugar........




That's making beer not brewing beer.
A Little like buying a packet of cake mix I suppose,that's making a cake not baking one.

Batz


----------



## Trent (16/2/08)

Huhness said:


> Thanks guys!!
> 
> Keep the comments coming!!! I do love beer! i've never been much of a spirits person..
> 
> ...





Huhness
Sorry to hear that Kronenbourg is a favourite of yours. It is probably OK for a lager, but...
You want some interesting beers to try? Get yer wallet ready...
As far as Aussie beers go
- Little Creatures Pale Ale
- Anything by Murray's Craft Brewing Co (nirvana Pale, Sassy Blonde, Grand Cru at 8.5% and Icon - IIPA at 7.5%)
- The Little Brewing co makes some decent beers, their Wicked Elf series
- Get yerself to Potters in the Hunter Valley and talk to Keith. They make some great beer, and Keith will be able to talk you (or show you) through the whole process. Sorry to dob you in, Keith!
- Matilda Bay make some great beers.
- Grand Ridge can be a bit hit and miss, but is usually good.
There are many other great aussie beers, get into a Dan Murphy's (there is one at Tuggerah) and have a look around.

As far as O/S beers go, the list is longer than your arm. Ones to really look out for include

Chimay (red, white or blue 0 all good)
Duvel
Rochefort 8 or 10
delirium tremens
Emersons from NZ
Monteiths from NZ
Weihenstephan Weizen (tastes of banana and cloves, like all good German wheat beers)
Aventinus Weizen-Eisbock
Schneider Wiesse
Fransizkaner Dunkel Weizen
Pilsner Urquell (the original pilsner)
Youngs Double Chocolate Stout
Orval (aquired taste - semi sour beer)
Hoegaarden (belgian witbier)

Literally hundreds of other good ones. Head to a good bottle shop, there are some in newcastle if you are ever up that way, and start tasting anything ya havent seen before.
Hope that helps
Trent


----------



## sah (16/2/08)

Brownie said:


> Can't imagine why its only when you start brewing all grain that your brain suddenly changes and then allows you to use hops and better yeast and of course experimenting with variations on a theme.
> 
> That all sounds very much like a huge pile of mumbo jumbo.
> 
> I would like to know what the chemical or neuro pathway that changes to allow this metomorphasis to occur when one touches a mash tun or a grain mill....please tell me.



Hi Brownie, it's not psychophysical 

For many going AG means they have to learn more than they already know and hands on is a really good way to learn. They get a better understanding of all aspects including how the ingredients (hops, yeast, malt) work together.

Often it's also the first time a full volume boil is used, which really allows the brewer to get the most out of hops from bittering through to flavour and aroma.

Having written this, maybe there is a "chemical or neuro pathway" change, perhaps brought on by LTS. Interesting theory :lol: 

regards,
Scott


----------



## matti (16/2/08)

> All grain brewing isn't just about departing from the goop, it's an educational journey.
> 
> regards,
> Scott


Couldn't agree more.



> That's making beer not brewing beer.
> A Little like buying a packet of cake mix I suppose,that's making a cake not baking one.


 :lol:

And to answer the original questions.
You can make special beer with a can of goo too.

With a proper boil and hop additions. A good yeast and right temperature.

AG to me is an entire new universe and it has engulfed me and then some. The more I learn the less I realise how little I know.

AG is not just about brewing. Its a life style.
a very consuming one :lol: 

Matti


----------



## andreic (16/2/08)

You can make great beers with Kits. Use good yeasts, freshest/best extract/kits, additional hops and specialty grains all help. Have your sanitation regime sorted out. Have controlled fermentation temps. If you don't have these areas sorted out then your AG beers will probably be just as crap as your Kit beers.

I've been in 2 case swaps now and have tasted a few outstanding kit/extract beers.

I have found with my own brewing that AG gives me a "fresher" tasting beer, and the ability to make lighter/pale style beers that I was never happy with from the kits.

If you want to try an AG brew - check out some of the fresh wort kits. I did a couple of these a few years back that were outstanding and decided pretty much from this point that I needed to go AG... (was already thinking about it)


----------



## Duff (16/2/08)

Huhness,

You're not a real brewer unless you brew AG.

There, I said it


----------



## bonj (16/2/08)

I agree with some of the comments above. AG is about the ability to control all aspects of the brewing process. You're not limited by which hops the extract companies decide to use. And when you taste it, you'll realise why so many of us make the decision to never go back to tins. I originally wanted to go AG for the romance of it. The idea of doing something from scratch appeals to me. It makes me proud to have produced a beer the way they have been doing for centuries (alright, maybe they didn't have March pumps  ). The taste wasn't the originator of the desire for me, but is certainly the motivation for me now.

Don't get me wrong, you can certainly make some fine beers from tins if you put enough care and attention into it. Frogman makes some great kit based beers. 

I agree with SAH about the knowledge part. You don't go to the effort of AG, only to ferment with no temperature control at 30degrees. AG makes you more serious about the process, and the quest to make great beer. You can get just as serious, and produce mighty fine results with tins too, but it doesn't have the romance and the inherent sense of pride that AG does.


----------



## Screwtop (16/2/08)

You asked a question.



Huhness said:


> Is it really that good? Is it like turning to the dark side? Turning your back on the goop? Is it really better than commercial beer??



And asked for The Truth!!!


YES!


----------



## Huhness (16/2/08)

Thanks for the comments everyone!


----------



## tangent (16/2/08)

Nothing wrong with a Kronenburg when you compare it to a James Boags. You'll notice most brewers here don't rate delicate lagers too highly here, they're more into malt/hops bombs like Little Creatures Pale Ale. IMO a delicate lager is a lot harder to get right than a malt/hop bomb, and I haven't tasted too many home brewed lagers either.

Brew what you want, not what the can dictates, that's also a benefit of AG.

I like the beef jerky back into steak analogy :beer:


----------



## Huhness (16/2/08)

Trent said:


> Huhness
> Sorry to hear that Kronenbourg is a favourite of yours. It is probably OK for a lager, but...
> You want some interesting beers to try? Get yer wallet ready...
> As far as Aussie beers go
> ...



BTW Trent thanks for this list i'll have to keep an eye out for some of these and give them a try!


----------



## Darren (16/2/08)

Hey Hughness,

If you are going to buy additional extract, hops, and a new yeast and a can you might as well buy some malted barley and mash it yourself. You could almost buy a whole bag of malted barley for the cost of a can and the extract. A whole bag would make 120 or so litres

After all, cans, extract, yeast and hops are the most expensive ingredients in beer. Its not surprising that you can make a good beer using a kit as a base but why would you. Mashing is a simple process and certainly not elitist. In the end it will save you lots of money and generally make better beer.

cheers

Darren


----------



## sah (16/2/08)

Darren said:


> Hey Hughness,
> 
> If you are going to buy additional extract, hops, and a new yeast and a can you might as well buy some malted barley and mash it yourself. You could almost buy a whole bag of malted barley for the cost of a can and the extract. A whole bag would make 120 or so litres
> 
> After all, cans, extract, yeast and hops are the most expensive ingredients in beer. Its not surprising that you can make a good beer using a kit as a base but why would you. Mashing is a simple process and certainly not elitist. In the end it will save you lots of money and generally make better beer.



True true, although if you factor in your extra labour this will close the costs some. Then again, if you are doing a full boil with extract it's stretching the time out too. 

Scott


----------



## mje1980 (16/2/08)

I like making stuff from scratch, i like cooking, the fresher the food the better. I like brewing, same deal, and i even made myself a few surfboards. I find it very satisfying to make something from raw ingredients, and it turns out great!. Funny that i hate doing work around the house with a passion!, definately not a handy man man, much to my wife's dismay!!, but anything that brings pleasure, food, beer, boards, im into haha. 

A few months ago, when my 2nd born was a few months old and taking up a lot of my time, i tried a Malt shovel brewery 2 row lager, hadn't brewed kits in at least 3 years. I used the yeast provided, and fermented it in a temp controlled fridge. Was the sh&ttest beer ever, thiner than water, and sharper than vinegar. Even though it takes time for ag beer, it is soooo worth it. Flavour is important in beer, thats why i brew all grain.


----------



## tangent (16/2/08)

Yes, that's a good point too - extract beer tastes like shit. Tell me your extract beer tastes better than a commercial beer and I'll show you someone with tastebuds in his arse.


----------



## blackbock (16/2/08)

Huhness once you go AG you will probably never want to ferment another can of goo. It's as simple as that. You may fall back on the cans a few times, but only out of necessity (like when you have no time to mash)

But as others have said there is more to it than the ingredients. Just because you brew with grains does not mean you will automatically make better beer - you need to research your techniques and recipes and probably will make a few duds along the way before you settle on a house beer. I know I have made a fair few ordinary beers...

In my quest for better beer I have tasted hundreds of famous commercial beers, and now there are probably only a dozen or so that I would buy again - after a while you will get to know what to look for to suit your palate. And then you can try to make something along the same lines yourself. It's the fun part.


----------



## Jim_Levet (16/2/08)

tangent said:


> Yes, that's a good point too - extract beer tastes like shit. Tell me your extract beer tastes better than a commercial beer and I'll show you someone with tastebuds in his arse.



Well said. This topic asked for the truth and thats what it got! Tangent you stand out as a man of the truth.
James


----------



## bonj (16/2/08)

tangent said:


> Tell me your extract beer tastes better than a commercial beer and I'll show you someone with tastebuds in his arse.



I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything, and I am well and truly on the AG trolly, but I made plenty of K&Ks that tasted better than VB. 

Now if you're talking about decent commercial beer, then I'd totally agree with you.


----------



## warra48 (16/2/08)

I'm not convinced you can make great beers with kits. I have done a few brews with cans of unhopped malt, specialty grains, and my choice of hops, liquid yeast, and temperature controlled fermentation, and they have been very drinkable.
However, I still feel my AG brews have that something extra. It's the quality of the malt and hop aroma and flavour.

And I enjoy the process. If I didn't I wouldn't have spent 9 hours brewing a Mrzen with a decoction schedule. It's still lagering, but the aroma of it is mind blowing, and the hydro samples are very promising.

To draw another analogy, can you honestly say that soup poured from a can, and heated in the microwave, is as good as the soup you make with your own stock, vegetables, beans, meats, pasta etc? Of course not.


----------



## Huhness (16/2/08)

tangent said:


> Yes, that's a good point too - extract beer tastes like shit. Tell me your extract beer tastes better than a commercial beer and I'll show you someone with tastebuds in his arse.


hahahahaha :lol: although i agree with Bonj! I've tasted many K&K HB better than VB!!


----------



## stoutdrinker (16/2/08)

Hey Tangent, you really cut me up.

If you want an honest, straight up answer just ask him! He never gives any namby pamby answers thats for sure and he's got one of the sharpest wits on AHB!

Keep em coming.

Stout.


----------



## haysie (16/2/08)

stoutdrinker said:


> he's got one of the sharpest wits on AHB!
> 
> Keep em coming.
> 
> Stout.




Woo hoo, B) 
Hughness, your own experience will tell the difference, im not gotta even try answer your question after all the above, some great advice and some  , but i posted too ask, " let us know the results first hand" next month, next year, let us know and good luck.
Haysie


----------



## pb unleaded (16/2/08)

two words:

nuclear f#@&*%' weapons


----------



## tangent (16/2/08)

> I made plenty of K&Ks that tasted better than VB.



everyone, meet Bonj


----------



## bonj (16/2/08)

tangent said:


> everyone, meet Bonj



:lol:

Come on tangent. You can't seriously tell me that you think VB tastes better than the best K&K you've tasted. If so:

Everyone, meet Tangent


----------



## Brownie (16/2/08)

Ya know I have a friend and a brother who love their red wine, to the point where their advice is sought after by others for a choice of wine....the friend has done some wine judging not full on though... but both are [email protected]#king annoying twats when someone opens a red.

So me being me...someone who loves a piss take and shooting pretentious behaviour...swapped the contents of a bottle of some apparent reasonable wine, with a much lesser quality but still OK bottle of Red...can't recall the names now of the Wines.

Well I am sure that everyone can see where this is going......Yup they couldn't pick the difference, obviously if I swapped the contents for a real cheapo young wine they would have twigged. But I challenge most people to actually pick the difference, of something that is of reasonable quality

Especially if you smoke, eat lots of fatty and salty foods, your taste buds are screwed, so those who do and think they can taste many subtle flavours are kiddin themselves

Also please don't get me wrong here, I suspect that All Grain Brewing does make a better beer (assuming the brewer has a clue about what they are doing), I just hate pretentious behaviour....if that offends someone then oh well get a life.

These are my thoughts, take them as you will.

Hugs and Kisses
Brownie.


----------



## goatherder (16/2/08)

I've tasted some excellent kit beers. I've tasted some ordinary AG beers. I brew AG beers cos it's more fun.


----------



## pint of lager (16/2/08)

Most beers at your local bottleshop are AG.

So you can taste for yourself what the difference is between a kit beer (yours) and an AG.

You will have to select your beers carefully. Megaswill and premium megaswill don't count.

Have tasted some really well made kit based beers. They do from time to time pop up on the winners list at the State and nationals. My hat goes off to the people that brew these beers.

The results at state and national level are dominated by AG.

Brew your beer that you enjoy.


----------



## tangent (16/2/08)

if you can make a similar beer to VB with less extract twang than a VB, i take my hat off to you.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (16/2/08)

tangent said:


> ... extract beer tastes like shit. ... tastebuds in his arse.



Beautifully internally consistent... :lol:


----------



## hairofthedog (17/2/08)

Brownie said:


> Ya know I have a friend and a brother who love their red wine, to the point where their advice is sought after by others for a choice of wine....the friend has done some wine judging not full on though... but both are [email protected]#king annoying twats when someone opens a red.
> 
> So me being me...someone who loves a piss take and shooting pretentious behaviour...swapped the contents of a bottle of some apparent reasonable wine, with a much lesser quality but still OK bottle of Red...can't recall the names now of the Wines.
> 
> ...



surely u dont brew AG then brownie cause anyone that does could tell the diff between AG & kit anyway u package it even blindfolded if u dont know what AG tastes like get yourself a james squire pilsner then try make it with a kit if there wasnt a HUGE diff between kit & AG id spent 15 minutes making a brew as aposed to 5 hours


----------



## geoffi (17/2/08)

The difference is that even well-made kits almost always taste like 'homebrew'.

Well-made (or even not-so-well-made) AG tastes like beer.


----------



## Brownie (17/2/08)

OK,

So as I imagined would have happened people have missed the point completely.

Read what I have said and not what you think I have said.

I am NOT doubting that All Grain beer is actually better than K&K.

What I am saying is that pretentious attitudes from some quarters towards K&K brewers is complete BS. I am amazed that it is believed, by becoming an AG brewer you suddenly increase IQ points and are able to experiment etc etc etc.

I shall refrain from continuing the discussion around flavour and taste buds, anyone that has done the true blindfold tests with food, knows that the human body can be tricked.

This reminds me of the Coffee Zealots at work, Oh no you can't go to that coffee shop their coffee tastes like bark...OMG....

Your Loving Servant
Brownie.


----------



## Huhness (17/2/08)

AG does seem to be alot of fun to brew! I just put a Aussie PA in the fermenter yesterday and i wanted to do something differnet to what the instructions told me to do (even though it just tells you to add it to boiling water stir fill to 23L and sprinkle the yeast)

The only thing i did do was buy a different Pale Ale yeast which hopefully will improve the flavour..

How long before some of you began making your own uniqiue beers?? thats what i find most appealing to begin AG brewing!


----------



## bonj (17/2/08)

tangent said:


> if you can make a similar beer to VB with less extract twang than a VB, i take my hat off to you.


First off, why would you want to make a similar beer to VB? You never said in the same style 

And 2nd, the quality of my beer jumped by orders of magnitude when I went AG. My argument is that it's not impossible with kits. Okay, I'm playing devils advocate.

Here's another analogy for you: AG is like fresh squeezed orange and pineapple juice, as opposed to reconstituted. 

I have talked to numerous AG brewers that upon tasting homebrewed AG beer, instantly dumped kits. Some even poured 100's of litres down the drain. That speaks for itself regarding the difference.

It's not elitist, it's just the truth.
*
The truth? You can't handle the truth!*


----------



## troydo (17/2/08)

i remember my first...... THANKS GUYS from the QLD caseswap july 2007.... ive since then gotten an AG setup and made 6 ags....

once you go grain you'll never complain!


----------



## Stuster (17/2/08)

Huhness, it's definitely a lot of fun. I think my second AG batch was the first one I made that was unique. Maris Otter, some Munich and crystal. Chinook to bitter and some Styrian Goldings at 10. Pacific Ale yeast. It was ok, but strangely I haven't made it again. :lol: You certainly don't have to do AG to make unique beers, and unique beers aren't always the most delicious ones to drink.  I don't mean you can't experiment, but I believe it's good to make a few batches somewhat to style and then branch out from there based on how the beers taste to you.

Oh, and which pale ale yeast was it?


----------



## paulwin (17/2/08)

i was at a party last and i gave this guy there a glass of my ag lcpa clone his comment was wow that doesn't even taste like homebrew.
i think kit beer can sometimes taste like homebrew but all grain beer never gets that kit twang they have a smoother flavore 
extract makes good beer all grain makes the best beer. 
cheers paul


----------



## johnno (17/2/08)

Well I do find it a bit of a chore brewing AG. But I do like the taste.

cheers
johnno


----------



## paulwin (17/2/08)

the only chore is cleaning up at the end of brewing
cheers paul


----------



## hairofthedog (17/2/08)

the day i tasted AG i gave away the 10 cases of kit brew i had under the house & have never looked back the only problem with AG is its highly addictive


----------



## domonsura (17/2/08)

I am a little divided on the extract vs AG issue (sort of). I have tried a couple of extract beers recently that honestly weren't BAD - I wouldn't rave about them, but nor were they offensive. One in particular in last years SA christmas case was a goody, I even ended up with 2 bottles of it somehow, and polished the last of it off last night, was quite nice - the fact of the matter is that a number of the beers in the Christmas case I thought were pretty average (I'm not going to specify publicly which ones) and most of them were AG. But when you're talking about cold and fizzy and a damned hot day, the line in the sand is drawn in a different place I suppose. 

HOWEVER......when it comes to _brewing_ beer, if I had a choice between making a kit beer and not making a beer at all/not having beer.......I would consistently land on the side of not making it at all and going without. But then...there was this one extract beer in the case..........

Not elitist IMHO, I just know what i like and what I don't, and I also know that _I personally have NEVER made an extract beer that I liked_.

AG was an eye opener to me in more ways than one, and one of the main things I like about it is the depth of control/ability to tweak the beer that you don't really get with a kit beer. And the fact that I seem to be able to make a decent AG beer 

CONFUSED? Not me. (Really...) AG all the way......


----------



## tangent (17/2/08)

i poured a heap of partials down the drain or gave them away when i started AG too. I had a batch in a fermenter and still bottled it and wrote a big *L* on the caps for *L*ast extract I ever touch. Most brewers seem to have the same story. Elitist maybe, but it IS better beer. I always hear extract brewers defend extract until they go AG, then they never seem to mention it again.
It's also about control of what you make, not how much corn crap you add with your number 2 brew-booster.


----------



## Huhness (17/2/08)

Stuster said:


> Huhness, it's definitely a lot of fun. I think my second AG batch was the first one I made that was unique. Maris Otter, some Munich and crystal. Chinook to bitter and some Styrian Goldings at 10. Pacific Ale yeast. It was ok, but strangely I haven't made it again. :lol: You certainly don't have to do AG to make unique beers, and unique beers aren't always the most delicious ones to drink. I don't mean you can't experiment, but I believe it's good to make a few batches somewhat to style and then branch out from there based on how the beers taste to you.
> 
> Oh, and which pale ale yeast was it?



The yeast was Brewers Craft Premium Ale Yeast i think.. <_< i went to my "LHBS" Pete's Homebrew Store, it wasn't what i expected.. :huh: I was hoping for yeasts in the fridge and grains and hops and someone to talk to about HB, but its just a video rental store/newsagent/general store/homebrew store..  no one knew anything about HB and they just sold some kits and a few bits and pieces.. 

But i had beer to brew at home and that cheered me up haha... asked alot of questions to some very confused people bought some $2 yeast to be polite and left..


----------



## enoch (17/2/08)

Picking up on the coffee zealots comment from further up..
While there are some OK instant coffees around and some dreadful coffee brewed from beans I have never tasted a good instant that comes close to a good brewed espresso or plunger.
Have a mate who is doing K&K from LHBS with good turnover and using brew enhancers but it still tastes like homebrew and isn't a patch on what is coming out of my AG system.


----------



## johnno (17/2/08)

Well I would brew kits if I couldn't do AG.

And if I was wealthy enough I probably would not even brew. I would just get all my favourite beers delivered to me and post up on the "What in the glass thread".

I cannot beleive the way some people go on about AG.


----------



## Gerard_M (17/2/08)

The truth! You can't handle the truth!
Son, we live in a world that has beers, and those beers have to be brewed by men with grain. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Stuster? We have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for extract beers, and you curse the all-grain brewers. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know. That extract beers, while tragic, are a waste of yeast. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves beers. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want All-Grain beer, you need All-Grain beer. We use words like sparge, mash, & efficiency. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who drinks the very beer I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a mash tun & a sack of grain, and brew real beer. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think of All-Grain brewers!
Cheers
Gerard


Yes that was a bit of a piss-take!


----------



## NickB (17/2/08)

For me it has to do with taste - the AG brews I have tasted, almost always taste better than kit brews. I had about 7 or 8 kit brews under my belt when I went AG, and I've never looked back.

I think it's also that your tastes evolve with the beer you brew - by that I mean that even the most experienced brewers on the forum have at one time or other, brewed a K&K beer. If they're anything like me, it would have been the best beer ever...until you're bitten by the AG bug - and just one taste of a quality AG beer will do it - and then it's all you think about...

For me, I'll most likely never do a kit brew again, purely from a taste perspective, but also from a "control" perspecitve. I just prefer to be able to brew any recipe I would like, and to tweak it infinitely to suit my palate.

Basically, if you're happy with the beer you're brewing at present, stick to it. Just don't mis-step and try another brewer's AG beer....... (or it's 'Welcome to the Dark Side)

Cheers


----------



## Duff (17/2/08)

Gerard_M said:


> Son, we live in a world that has beers, and those beers have to be brewed by men with grain. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Stuster? We have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for extract beers, and you curse the all-grain brewers. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know. That extract beers, while tragic, are a waste of yeast. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves beers. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want All-Grain beer, you need All-Grain beer. We use words like sparge, mash, & efficiency. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who drinks the very beer I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a mash tun & a sack of grain, and brew real beer. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you of All-Grain brewers!
> Cheers
> Gerard
> 
> ...




Bwaahhaahhaahhaa :lol: 

Nice job G :beerbang:


----------



## petesbrew (17/2/08)

Duff said:


> Bwaahhaahhaahhaa :lol:
> 
> Nice job G :beerbang:



Classic work indeed, Gerard!


----------



## jlm (17/2/08)

Gerard_M said:


> I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who drinks the very beer I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it.



Oh man, I love that line...... I wanna use it as my signature. If I do it Gerard, I'll quote ya.....


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (17/2/08)

So, will Gerard_M now be changing his nick to Aaron Sorkin?


----------



## davewalk (17/2/08)

tangent said:


> Yes, that's a good point too - extract beer tastes like shit. Tell me your extract beer tastes better than a commercial beer and I'll show you someone with tastebuds in his arse.



So by your logic the best K&K is still not as good as Southwark & Westend. Please tell me your comment was an over reaction bought on by drinking too much AG.
These beers(?) are brewed using traditional Adelaide backwater!


----------



## Hargie (17/2/08)

....AG = building furniture from scratch....kit beer = ikea....


----------



## domonsura (17/2/08)

"You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want All-Grain beer, you need All-Grain beer. We use words like sparge, mash, & efficiency. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who drinks the very beer I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it."


Man, you should be a writer...:lol: Or a PM. Or in the very least a speechwriter


----------



## microbe (17/2/08)

domonsura said:


> Man, you should be a writer...:lol: Or a PM. Or in the very least a speechwriter



That's stretching it. It reminds me of a tirade in a movie. B) 

Cheers,

microbe


----------



## braufrau (17/2/08)

SAH said:


> However, take away a good all grain brewer's mash tun and give them malt extract, speciality grain and all the other things they would normally use and they'll be able to make really really fantastic beer.




Yeah ... my brewing made a huge jump with my first extract beer (as opposed to kit). I make partials with about 4kg of grain in a brew now but nothing has been as significant as that first jump to malt/specialty grain/hops.


----------



## Trent (17/2/08)

Braufrau
Partials with 4kg of grain? Why not leave out the extract and make some AG bitters, dry stouts or (god forbid) berliners? Low alcohol APA's , light wheat beers, etc... You should be able to hit 1040 in 21L or so with 4kg of grain, then you will be able to say for sure if all grain is any better than extract. If it isnt any better to your tastes, then just keep on adding the DME.
t.


----------



## hairofthedog (17/2/08)

I suggest you pick up a mash tun & a sack of grain, and brew real beer

well said Gerald well said


----------



## GMK (17/2/08)

OK - I willwade into this debate... Here goes.

Whilst a member of the Cnaberra Brewers 2000-2003 - i did Kits & Bits - went to a meeting and tasted my first AG...
Some of their AG Beers were Exceptional....felt like tossing my beers down the sink.

However, i learnt alot and played/experimented and in 2001 & 2002 my K& B took places in the ACT State Championships and the Nationals (2 x 2nd, 2 x 3rd, 2 x 6th and 2 x 9th over the 2 years.)
Made teh best kit beer in ACT and the third best in the country.

Started building my AG Gear up sure the costs are a bit high - but you can go AG cheaply - mainly for the following reasons:
- cheaper tahn K&B
- more recipes you can do
- more control you have

Did my 1st AG in the Barossa 2004 in front of 15 people - Batz will remeber.
Culminated in 2007 with Best Mash Beer at the SABSOSA.

So Basically, i do it all - Brew AG at least once a month and K&B when i dont have the time.

I have a motto....

"You brew the best beer you can with teh equipment you have at the level you want to go to...After all, at the end of the day you brew for you..your the one that drinks most of it."

There are no better brewers...just different brewers.

Just rejoice in the fact that you at home with the Family making beer that you are happy to drink...
so relax and pour another home brew...


----------



## Kai (17/2/08)

I thought your motto was "Making beer is not WORK... ....it's personal expression by creating Living ART!", kenny?


----------



## tangent (17/2/08)

> So by your logic the best K&K is still not as good as Southwark & Westend. Please tell me your comment was an over reaction bought on by drinking too much AG.



OK i'll bite. Shit yeah, VB, definitely Worst End and to a degree Southwark are bad commercial beers, but i'll drink them over a K&K version *of the same style* anyday.

You guys like to bag commercial beers but to say an extract version is better is complete crap IMO.

If I couldn't brew AG, i'd buy Coopers beer, NEVER K&K.


----------



## davewalk (17/2/08)

tangent said:


> OK i'll bite. Shit yeah, VB, definitely Worst End and to a degree Southwark are bad commercial beers, but i'll drink them over a K&K version *of the same style* anyday.
> 
> You guys like to bag commercial beers but to say an extract version is better is complete crap IMO.
> 
> If I couldn't brew AG, i'd buy Coopers beer, NEVER K&K.



Mr Pot you should never have criticised the Kettle re it's colour, particularly as to the location of one's tastebuds.


----------



## Darren (17/2/08)

Just to follow-up on GMK's post,

Over the years I have tasted quite a few of Kenny's beers. Like anyone (myself included) he has made some shockers too. Personally, I cannot remember any extract beer of Ken's I really enjoyed (even though there was nothing really wrong with them). His beer have improved immensely since malted barley has been the major form of sugar.

The truth is........Grain shits all over extract and particularly kit.

cheers

Darren


----------



## tangent (17/2/08)

sure they're bad beers, but i can't detect any extract twang.


----------



## bonj (18/2/08)

Here's another analogy for you (as if you needed anymore):

Kits are like Windows, AG is like Linux.

I have no idea where OSX fits in here, but as it's built on a decent underlying kernel, I'm guessing it can be either.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (18/2/08)

Bonj said:


> Here's another analogy for you (as if you needed anymore):
> 
> Kits are like Windows, AG is like Linux.
> 
> I have no idea where OSX fits in here, but as it's built on a decent underlying kernel, I'm guessing it can be either.



If you want it to be, it can even be like Unix...  

OSX is actually a really good analogy in my view - the underlying software machinery is technically very sound and allows the user to get as involved in the machinations as they wish (AG), but there is a glossy, user-friendly interface that allows the user to ignore it all and just get the job done if they wish (BIAB).

Is buying a commercial beer like buying a packaged computer system from Harvey Norman?


----------



## tangent (18/2/08)

hahaha, you puter nerds and BIABers crack me up


----------



## petesbrew (18/2/08)

You might compare K&K to AG, like a packet mix or chicken tonight is to cooking fully from scratch. 
It tastes okay, but would be heaps better if you put in the full effort (and took out all the additives/preservative etc).

I'm slowly making my way slowly towards Partials & AG's, but still do K&K's.
(Although, I don't see the point in making a ginger beer. I'll be sticking with Bundaberg for now.)


----------



## glennheinzel (18/2/08)

Huhness said:


> Can someone also recommend some good unique beers which rate well??



Michael Jackson's Great Beer Guide is a good place to look for top rated beers. 
Link

As someone else pointed out, it is good to taste a wide range of beers so that you can work out for yourself what you like and don't like.


----------



## crozdog (18/2/08)

I like the cake analogy myself.

- you can go to the shops & buy a ready made cake, OR
- you can go to the supermarket & buy a packet mix, add water or milk & cook, OR
- you can buy butter, flour, eggs etc mix it, bake it & decorate it.

I know which one tastes better - the one which has been personalised and made with love and care.

Same with beer:
- you can go to the grog shop & buy it ready made,
- you can go to bigw/lhbs & buy a tin of goo & add sugar & water, or
- you can go AG.

Like pretty well everyone I started with K&K, made some very ordinary brews + a few that were OK - especially after learning to control temp; use better yeast; steeping grain & adding hops. However a mate was using fresh wort kits & there was no comparison to what I'd made. 

So why do i AG? 
1. I'm a tinkerer & gain great pleasure from looking for the right bits to use to make my own brewery equipment just the way I want it
2. I'm a control freak. With AG I can do whatever I want, however I want, whenever I want. (I can't do that with a tin of goo)  
3. I like cooking and adding my own twist / love. 
4. The addition of caring and nurturing for the resultant product adds to the enjoyment of both the creation and consumption.
5. I reckon I make better beer cheaper than what i can buy what is usually crap commercial beer. 
6. No extract twang. (need I say more)
7. I love to learn & have found that with AG brewing there is so much in so many areas that can be explored. 
8. I like variety. With AG, the number of possible combinations of grain/hops/water profile/yeast/temp etc is enormous! Much more so than what I can obtain from using kits & adding bits.
9. It is a great excuse to get out of the house & into the shed! :super: 

I still buy commercial beer, but it is now usually bought as part of my beer education process eg based on (bjcp) style and reputation (ie its a good example of the style).

We all have our own reasons, but the're mine.


----------



## Blackfish (18/2/08)

This thread is cracking me up.

The only way to solve this question for yourself is to DO IT!
No shortcuts, no cheating.
No matter how much AHB / Palmer / advice you read, the nagging thought that AG might be better is what's going to drive you to it.

It is better, but me telling you won't make you really know. You, not us, are the only judge of wether it is a good use of your time.
**caveat on**
The things that make your kit beer suck, will make your AG beer suck (temps, sanitation, recipe, dud ingredients etc)
**end caveat**
Take the Pepsi challenge, DO IT. Until then, whoever said that there is a whole heap of AG beers available at your local bottle O was right. 

Live long & prosper

FHG out.


----------



## Huhness (18/2/08)

Rukh said:


> Michael Jackson's Great Beer Guide is a good place to look for top rated beers.
> Link
> 
> As someone else pointed out, it is good to taste a wide range of beers so that you can work out for yourself what you like and don't like.



Thanks for that! I have already found out i don't like JS Porter... :lol: 



crozdog said:


> So why do i AG?
> 1. I'm a tinkerer & gain great pleasure from looking for the right bits to use to make my own brewery equipment just the way I want it
> 2. I'm a control freak. With AG I can do whatever I want, however I want, whenever I want. (I can't do that with a tin of goo)
> 3. I like cooking and adding my own twist / love.
> ...


They are some pretty good reasons! i can relate to quite a few of them!


----------



## Huhness (18/2/08)

fhgwgads said:


> This thread is cracking me up.
> 
> The only way to solve this question for yourself is to DO IT!
> No shortcuts, no cheating.
> ...


Do you know a site which would have some detailed plans on what is needed and how to make an AG setup?


----------



## Stuster (18/2/08)

There are also a lot of ratings on ratebeer. Click here for the 50 top rated Australian beers. Nice to see Murrays on top. :chug:


----------



## geoffi (18/2/08)

Huhness said:


> Do you know a site which would have some detailed plans on what is needed and how to make an AG setup?




There are plenty of different AG setups, but for starters I'd take a look at the BIAB threads on this site. Sounds like a cheap and easy way to test the AG waters without diving into the deep end. From what I understand all you'd need is a large enough kettle and an appropriate bag. Syphon the finished wort into a no-chill cube and you're in business.


----------



## Steve (18/2/08)

Huhness said:


> Do you know a site which would have some detailed plans on what is needed and how to make an AG setup?




sorry had to laugh - But I do believe you have found the site. THIS ONE! Just have a read and ask questions.

Its like being on Aunt Bettys icing and cake making forum and asking the members if they know a good site to give you ideas on how and what to buy to make your own cake from scratch?  

Cheers
Steve

PS. Heres a link to get you started....follow the pics at the bottom of the page:

http://cruisenews.net/brewing/infusion/


Edit: I whole heartedly agree with crozdog.


----------



## tangent (18/2/08)

if you don't have a sewing machine, try some mayo buckets and a drill.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/2/08)

So what IS THE TRUTH..... :unsure: 


Can it be only found at the bottom of am empty sack of malted grain... B)


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/2/08)

Huhness said:


> Do you know a site which would have some detailed plans on what is needed and how to make an AG setup?




That boy is asking some really tough questions......Now what was the name of that site....um...aussiehome something.....


----------



## Huhness (18/2/08)

tangent said:


> if you don't have a sewing machine, try some mayo buckets and a drill.


Sewing Machine?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/2/08)

Huhness said:


> Sewing Machine?




All good AG brewers use sowing machines......


----------



## Huhness (18/2/08)

Steve said:


> sorry had to laugh - But I do believe you have found the site. THIS ONE! Just have a read and ask questions.
> 
> Its like being on Aunt Bettys icing and cake making forum and asking the members if they know a good site to give you ideas on how and what to buy to make your own cake from scratch?
> 
> ...


That site helped alot thanks!  i like the pictures..


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (18/2/08)

If you do not have or cannot identify a sewing machine, there is no problem. A big swatch of Swiss Voile baggie material can be used just as well without this so-called 'sewing' caper. Push it into the pot, add the grain and make sure the floppy-over-edge bits don't catch fire...


----------



## Lukes (18/2/08)

Huhness said:


> Do you know a site which would have some detailed plans on what is needed and how to make an AG setup?




Huhness,
I love looking at all the crazy set ups on this site.
You might find some detailed plans or directions to what stuff to scab from the tip.....


----------



## BoilerBoy (18/2/08)

Huhness said:


> I have had plenty of K&K HB beer before some done well some not so well.. :blink:
> 
> I've never had a AG HB before (Not even a partial!)
> 
> ...



I've thought about this for a couple of days as its the same question most of us asked at some point.

The initial cost of going Ag really sifts through your motivations and seriouness, it gets cheaper after you have the gear, but the initial outlay almost seems unjustifiable to the average battler and even a bit "nutty" to the casual onlooker.
Then there is the time, for me like most with wives girlfriends and kids, its not convenient, brew days full of interuptions, being a taxi driver and for me a wife on shift work and trying to build a two story addition to the house.
So why do it?
It has to be for the taste or else where all kidding ourselves!

I rarely buy commercial beer now, except the odd coopers pale for yeast and simply because of budget constraints and that same money would make better home brew.
The alternative is K&K or extract or partials, I still remember though that Extract isn't all that cheap, partials still take nearly as long as AG whioh leaves k&k? 
My journey into AG took less than 12 months from my first K&K simply because if there wasn't a better way it was a waste of time.

People who brew AG dont really ask the questions about "Is it better?" They already new that before they bought their gear.

For me I wouldn't go back even if it was more convenient or quicker to do so because it has to be about the taste and the commercial beer worth buying I wouldn't be able to afford.
Snobbery? probably, but then as I said I didn't like beer much to begin with.


Cheers
BB


----------



## tangent (18/2/08)

and may i add to that, BoilerBoy makes a STUNNING Coopers Sparkling Ale clone, without a can opener (and he's generally busier than a one-armed juggler with crabs - so don't make the "i don't have time" excuse)


----------



## Fatgodzilla (18/2/08)

crozdog said:


> So why do i AG?
> 1. I'm a tinkerer & gain great pleasure from looking for the right bits to use to make my own brewery equipment just the way I want it
> 2. I'm a control freak. With AG I can do whatever I want, however I want, whenever I want. (I can't do that with a tin of goo)
> 3. I like cooking and adding my own twist / love.
> ...



I never thought you to be the warm and fuzzy type of guy. CD.  

Totally misguided, maybe slightly deranged, possibly neurotic, but a warm and fuzzy type of guy none the less. 

I like making good home crafted beer too. One day I might succeed !


----------



## crozdog (18/2/08)

Fatgodzilla said:


> Totally misguided, maybe slightly deranged, possibly neurotic, but a warm and fuzzy type of guy none the less.


thanks FGZ, I'll have to advise the MRS - incase there is anything she's missed B). I'm sure that i've picked up some of those characteristics from the company i keep here & in the ISB :lol: 



Fatgodzilla said:


> I like making good home crafted beer too. One day I might succeed !


Stick at it - your xmas case entry was good.


----------



## Muggus (18/2/08)

After only just recently trying my first AG homebrewed beers in a case swap, I can confidently say that AG beers are better than anything you can create with Kits and Extract. 

There are so many variations you can play with AG brews that are simply not possible with K+K. I think the one thing that grabbed my attention after trying my first few was the variation in malt character from beer to beer, even when they were of a similiar style. 
You can utilise hops and yeast quite well with an All-Extract, but you're going to be pretty limited by what sort of flavour and body you get from your malts.


----------



## Murcluf (18/2/08)

Stuster said:


> There are also a lot of ratings on ratebeer. Click here for the 50 top rated Australian beers. Nice to see Murrays on top. :chug:



Found it very intersting that Australia's biggest selling beers don't make it into the top 50 rated beer in Australia. Which makes me wonder whether the majority of the beer consuming public here walk on their hand and talk out their back sides. Because I can't understand if it tastes so bad compared everything else available they are so eager to part with their hard earnt pennies to buy junk.



SpillMostOfit said:


> If you do not have or cannot identify a sewing machine, there is no problem. A big swatch of Swiss Voile baggie material can be used just as well without this so-called 'sewing' caper. Push it into the pot, add the grain and make sure the floppy-over-edge bits don't catch fire..



If you can't get Swiss Vollie, run down to spotlight and get wedding veil material it great for making mash bags for esky's it's strong enough to hold up to 7kg's of wet grain and effiency is pretty good with it also. My missus was a wiz on the overlocker....


----------



## Stuster (18/2/08)

Murcluf said:


> Found it very intersting that Australia's biggest selling beers don't make it into the top 50 rated beer in Australia. Which makes me wonder whether the majority of the beer consuming public here walk on their hand and talk out their back sides. Because I can't understand if it tastes so bad compared everything else available they are so eager to part with their hard earnt pennies to buy junk.



Marketing is a big factor.
People only know the big brands and don't go to the trouble of finding anything else (I didn't for years either).
The majority of bottle shops sell nothing else but the big brands. 
Peer pressure, partly due to marketing.
The mainstream beers are lowest common denominator, unlikely to offend anybody and equally unlikely to excite them.
And then there's the talking out the back side bit.


----------



## Murcluf (18/2/08)

Stuster said:


> Marketing is a big factor.
> People only know the big brands and don't go to the trouble of finding anything else (I didn't for years either).
> The majority of bottle shops sell nothing else but the big brands.
> Peer pressure, partly due to marketing.
> ...



Honesty I do understand exactly why it happens, but still I find it so very hard to swallow. Seriously they just don't know what they are missing. I'm thinking "The Matrix" at the moment "Am I really drinking good beer or is it the matrix telling me I'm drinking good beer?"


----------



## Stuster (18/2/08)

Murcluf said:


> Honesty I do understand exactly why it happens, but still I find it so very hard to swallow. Seriously they just don't know what they are missing. I'm thinking "The Matrix" at the moment "Am I really drinking good beer or is it the matrix telling me I'm drinking good beer?"



Oops. Sorry. I guess you just triggered off a rant.  

I agree, does seem like the Matrix. Once you're on the outside, you can see how it works. But how to set free everyone on the inside.  

Perhaps it's time for me to have a little lie down. :lol:


----------



## oldbugman (18/2/08)

Stuster said:


> Perhaps it's time for me to have a little lie down. :lol:



Or another HB.
:beer:


----------



## Brownie (18/2/08)

The answer is *42*


----------



## hairofthedog (18/2/08)

my mate told me a kit brewer is someone whos just to tight to buy commercial beer i think thats a bit rough

i think a kit brewer is just someone unenlightened & an AG brewer is an enlightened soul in pursuit of his or her dreams (the perfect beer)


----------



## Huhness (18/2/08)

Brownie said:


> The answer is *42*


hahaha :lol: i see!!!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/2/08)

Slartybartfast had a killer 3 tier rig, but the mice confiscated it...


----------



## Tim F (18/2/08)

Brownie said:


> OK,
> 
> So as I imagined would have happened people have missed the point completely.
> 
> ...



I haven't seen anyone saying you can't get this knowledge from brewing kits or whatver, just that you are more likely to take the trouble do so if you are spending so much longer on your brewing


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (18/2/08)

Murcluf said:


> If you can't get Swiss Vollie, run down to spotlight and get wedding veil material it great for making mash bags for esky's it's strong enough to hold up to 7kg's of wet grain and effiency is pretty good with it also. My missus was a wiz on the overlocker....



Running away from the topic at hand, but I BIAB'd 16 dry kilograms of grain the other day and my stitching held up as did the voile itself... I think Swiss Voile may be the magic fabric: great for both simple and complex filters, food safe (whatever that means), cheap...


----------



## PistolPatch (18/2/08)

I think anyone who is brewing kits and feels they are doing all the basics right but are still not getting a good beer should immediately jump to and read this thread

It will prevent you giving up brewing and give you a great beer straight away.

Go for it!
Pat


----------



## Lukes (19/2/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Running away from the topic at hand, but I BIAB'd 16 dry kilograms of grain the other day and my stitching held up as did the voile itself... I think Swiss Voile may be the magic fabric: great for both simple and complex filters, food safe (whatever that means), cheap...



*16 Kg* is that a record for the Brew In A Bag system?

Can we get some pic's for the jedi padawans thinking of crossing to the dark side via a bag?

- Luke


----------



## boingk (25/2/08)

Pretty much been said already - there's no 'best way' for everyone, thats like saying theres a 'best car' for everyone: ain't gonna happen. I love my Valiant because its old, retro, comfy, roomy and powerful. I can also work on it myself. My mate loves his Camry because its gold, has power everything plus a good sound system, and gets good mileage. He could care less about what happens under the bonnet.

I like K&B because its easy, cheap and I live in a dorm so I'm limited to a partially empty wardrobe in which I can brew. I enjoy the beers I brew and my mates reckon they aren't bad either. My best recipe actually includes dextrose, would you believe it, and yet people swear it tastes just like Heineken. In the end it comes down to how you go about things in general as a person, what constraints you have [money, space, time] and more importantly _what *YOU* want._

Cheers - boingk


----------



## staggalee (25/2/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Running away from the topic at hand, but I BIAB'd 16 dry kilograms of grain the other day and my stitching held up as did the voile itself... I think Swiss Voile may be the magic fabric: great for both simple and complex filters, food safe (whatever that means), cheap...



16 dry kg?
What size pot did you do that in?

stagga.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (25/2/08)

Lukes said:


> *16 Kg* is that a record for the Brew In A Bag system?
> 
> Can we get some pic's for the jedi padawans thinking of crossing to the dark side via a bag?
> 
> - Luke



I'm claiming it as a record! At the risk of hijacking the discussion, I was very pleased it all held up (although I had no doubts whatsoever :unsure: ) and I think with my new DoubleLayer(tm) design, I could mash in an Olympic swimming pool.

There were no pics taken. We were too busy brewing and drinking, basically. I'm bottling my half of it tomorrow (well, I was going to today until Murphy knocked at the door and trashed my SuperAutomatica), along with an appropriate dose of oak and vanilla infused Wild Turkey at priming time...



staggalee said:


> 16 dry kg?
> What size pot did you do that in?
> 
> stagga.



My Handy Dandy 75litre pot. We ended up with about 40 litres of wort into cubes after a 3-man DunkSparge(tm) and a 90 minute boil. I wasn't measuring gravities because I was attempting to illustrate how easy the system is and because Velophile made me drink more beer...


I have to tell you... I love this All Grain Beer Caper.


----------



## tangent (25/2/08)

Now imagine an extract brewer with this same conversation.

"well, I got out the trusty can opener and boiled the kettle! Whew! What a brew day! I'm glad I got up early. I tell you, when I opened that packet of brew-booster #4, the smell was almost... non-existent...."


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (25/2/08)

tangent said:


> ... well, I got out the trusty can opener and boiled the kettle! Whew! What a brew day! I'm glad I got up early. I tell you, when I opened that packet of brew-booster #4, the smell was almost... non-existent...



Do you use a MagiCan, or one of those cute new battery operated thingies? I've got an electric one: you just push a button and before you know it, the can is OPEN! I reckon you can open at least twice as many cans as back when I started brewing...


----------



## staggalee (25/2/08)

By golly, a 75 l. pot.
That`s a lot of pot.

stagga.


----------



## tangent (25/2/08)

now Domonsura is on the scene, 95L seems to be becoming the standard.


----------



## staggalee (25/2/08)

What is domonsura, is that some brand of pot?

stagga.


----------



## tangent (25/2/08)

AHB member.


----------



## staggalee (25/2/08)

Oh yes,now I remember.
Thanks.

stagga.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (25/2/08)

AHB members suffering from pot envy.

The solution is available without prescription...


----------



## staggalee (25/2/08)

Not only that, I`ll probably get a sizeable discount.
{we`re old mates} 

stagga.


----------



## bindi (25/2/08)

tangent said:


> Now imagine an extract brewer with this same conversation.
> 
> "well, I got out the trusty can opener and boiled the kettle! Whew! What a brew day! I'm glad I got up early. I tell you, when I opened that packet of brew-booster #4, the smell was almost... non-existent...."




:lol: :lol: You crack me up.......


----------



## Uncle Fester (25/2/08)

tangent said:


> and may i add to that, BoilerBoy makes a STUNNING Coopers Sparkling Ale clone, without a can opener (and he's generally busier than a one-armed juggler with crabs - so don't make the "i don't have time" excuse)



C'mon Tangent.... Do you really think you can submit a post like this without being asked for the recipe????

(I remember being bugged by PM by someone who reckoned I should get a pair of mayo buckets together..)

Fess.


----------



## domonsura (25/2/08)

staggalee said:


> Not only that, I`ll probably get a sizeable discount.
> {we`re old mates}
> 
> stagga.





Discount......Yep Staggs, I'll quite happily trim 50% off any kettle of yours.....with the plasma cutter.....


----------



## tangent (25/2/08)

PM him. I don't have the recipe.

Did you try some mayo buckets or crank up the sewing machine?


----------



## Uncle Fester (25/2/08)

All right.. I'll bite.

Huhness, send me a PM with your details and I will send you a bottle of the Pigs Arse Pale Ale I am going to brew in the next week. :beer: 


At least then you will be able to say you have tasted an AG brew (Not that the PAPA is a medal contender) h34r: 


Cheers,

Fester.


----------



## Uncle Fester (25/2/08)

tangent said:


> PM him. I don't have the recipe.
> 
> Did you try some mayo buckets or crank up the sewing machine?



I tried to get mayo buckets but the best I could find were 15 litre.

I moseyed down to the Tip recycle place (Revolve) and picked up an esky some fool decided to get rid of for the princley sum of $5.00

It happened to have a drain plug in the bottom. 10 minutes work, a few garden hose fittings and a bit of steel mesh stretched over an old shelf rail and I had a false bottomed mash tun.

I can get just over 5kg of grain in it, so for brewing 22/23 litre batches it is ideal. I consistently hit 75% efficieny, and have had up to 83%.

Next thing will be to upsize the whole system. No pressure there. Grain milll is next toy.


Fess.

PS: Sewing machine motor is a part of the next experiment....... HERMS pump for $29.99 Will post results when I have something worth posting.

Festa


----------



## staggalee (26/2/08)

domonsura said:


> Discount......Yep Staggs, I'll quite happily trim 50% off any kettle of yours.....with the plasma cutter.....


 :lol: 

stagga.


----------



## tangent (26/2/08)

so you're using a "mash tun"?? Crazy!  Start a thread about it!


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (26/2/08)

What's a mash tun? :huh:


----------

