# Beersmith V1 V's Beersmith V2



## Wolfy (22/8/11)

I've been using BeerSmith (v1) for a while now, and it does everything I need it to, but in a simple and easy to view/edit/use way, most especially it displays ALL the recipe and all the info in 1 nice little screen (grainbill, yeast, fermentation temps, notes etc).

But I thought I'd give BeerSmith (v2) a trial - and so far I totally hate the layout, and while its obviously much more complex, I'm not sure what has been added that is actually useful.
*However, I know lots of people have purchased it so I'd like to know what everyone thinks is so good about it ... and especially why is it better than v1?*

I hate how it spreads individual brew-information is spread over 5 tabs*, I can't see my 'notes' on the first page and adding 'Selected Fields' gets cumbersome** when you have more than a few bits of info you want to see.
The 'Yeast starter' tap could be cool, but despite its overly complex setup, does not allow the use of washed slurry***, stepped starters, a different pitching rate for different types of ales**** or simply a 'starter cell densiity'*****.
The mash/fermentation graphs look pretty, but don't really do anything useful.
The cost information might be useful, but I can't see it as something I want to know or care about.

... what else have I missed that should make me interested in this new version, or am I just grumpy and like simple and old-fashioned software?

*This might be different if you print stuff rather than just use it on your computer like I do.
** I've got about 14 things there - mostly what BS1 would display on 1 page - but it only puts them all in a column down the page.
*** 'Yeast starter options' has a bit about slurry but on the 'Design' or 'Yeast Starter' tabs there is no way (that I could find) to select that you're using slurry.
**** Using x0.5 for English ales for example ... unless you change the generic rate.
***** I don't mean growth factor, I mean cell density in the starter eg: '100billion cells/ml'.


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## bignath (22/8/11)

I completely agree with you Wolfy, i preferred the more simplistic layout of V1.

the nice colour schemes look all nice and modern, but i don't use it anymore....

Once Rob added the no chill option for Brewmate, i've been using it exclusively ever since.

The one thing that has always pissed me off about beersmith, is the lack of alarms. I'd have thought when so much of our hobby is worked around timing, that alarms would have been a pretty important feature. Love the brewmate alarms...

Not trying to turn this into another Brewmate vs Beersmith vs Beertools Pro vs Pro Mash vs Beer Alchemy argument, just trying to back you up mate, i don't get the new version and wished i'd saved my money.

I'm sure if i was running a brewery (commercial) then i'd need the extra features, but in the words of a well known brewer from QLD:

"Beersmith is like driving a B Double to the shops when all you need is milk." Couldn't agree more....


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## felten (22/8/11)

I find the yeast tab useless. And the graphs are useless. And there is more clicking involved to get into tools/ingredients, and the print outs are a PITA. 

The grain pct button is useful, as is having rager and tinseth IBU # on the recipe screen at the same time. Inbuilt BIAB features are handy if you're a BIAB'er, though I still rely on the BIAB spreadsheet for all my volume numbers in that regard.

But other than that it's basically got all the same info that v1 had, it takes some getting used to, but not better just different IMO.


I should add, I do not regret buying it at all, and would do so again.


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## vykuza (22/8/11)

I've abandoned BeerSmith 2 altogether. I use BS1 occasionally (multi step mashes), and I use Brewmate now as my primary brewing app.

BS2 is clunky, hard to use, has terrible UI and layout and in no way makes brewing or my brew day easier. At its core it's got some amazing utility, but it's a nightmare to use. It's a step back IMHO.


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## Carboy (22/8/11)

Me also, 

After using V:1 for two years, its only taken V:2 two months to make think about moving to Promash. 

V:2 is so clunky that I don't even use it on brew day anymore.... Personally I think they could have added V:2 extra features to V:1 without destroying its simplicity. Just my 2 worth :icon_cheers:


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## WarmBeer (22/8/11)

Beersmith 2 *doesn't* crash when running it via Wine on Ubuntu.

Beersmith 1 does.

Good enough for me.


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## Phoney (22/8/11)

There's a few things that annoy me. Namely this:

On the mash details tab you have the following fields:

End of Running Gravity
Mash Pre Boil Gravity

Then on the fermentation tab you have:

Meas Pre-boil gravity (into the boiler)
Measured OG (into the fermenter)
Gravity after primary
Measured FG

I only measure my gravity twice. Once into the fermenter, once at kegging. Yet if I cant be bothered going in and entering it in 6 freakin times (not to mention entering volumes 4 times) it throws out my efficiency calculations. This wasnt a problem in BS v1.4


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## felten (22/8/11)

phoneyhuh said:


> There's a few things that annoy me. Namely this:
> 
> On the mash details tab you have the following fields:
> 
> ...




You don't have to (on my setup, it might be different because I'm set to BIAB). On the fermentation tab, you can 'ignore gravity after primary' and 'preboil grav/vol'. The efficiency is calculated from the post boil OG and measured batch size AKA end of boil volume.

The measured OG and measured FG calculate the alcohol %.


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## stux (22/8/11)

Bs1 doesn't work on a mac, bs2 does, good enough for me


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## seemax (23/8/11)

Obviously the biggest change is native Mac... but I tend to agree that it has become complex perhaps just for the sake it.

Maybe Brad felt if he didn't add a load of extra gadgets that (existing) customers wouldn't see it as a major upgrade, more of a v1.1 and wouldn't pay to upgrade.

Given I run a Mac in the house and a Ubuntu box in the brew shed it's been handy to formulate recipes on the Mac and use Dropbox to share them, plus as WB said it's more stable under Wine.


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## joshuahardie (23/8/11)

I agree with you too Wolfy, 

I love BS1, and assumed that BS2 would be an improvement.

While some things are better, 95% of my use of the program is to record recipes and view brewdays. For that BS1 is just easier for me.

BTW, this may have been covered elsewhere, but I use beersmith on a flash drive so I can move it between machines.
because in BS2 it stores all the files in a dedicated directory. For me this is F:/BeerSmith2

However if I move to a machine that reads the flashdrive as another drive letter, eg G: then all of my files cannot be read.

Is there a work around for this.


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## dicko (23/8/11)

I have just done 6 years with Pro Mash but have recently changed to BS v2.

When I bought Pro Mash I had a good look at BS v1 and thought at the time that the Pro Mash was a lot easier to use.

Since using BS v2 and becoming familiar with how it works I enloy the prompting for ALL the information as it promotes exact repeatability with a brew.

I like the Brewsheet print out which I use in the brewery and it has provision for entering gravities and volumes and this info is easily transferred back to the computer program for future reference as well as being able to adjust for efficiencies etc.

It might be like driving an automatic truck compared to one with a 20 speed manual gearbox.
The auto is easy to drive but at times it robs the driver of the ability to be in the correct gear for the situation

I guess that this post is slightly :icon_offtopic: but I am enjoying using BS v2 

Cheers


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## Murcluf (23/8/11)

With all the moaning about BSv2 might be better to wait for BSv2 sp1 is released before upgrading from BSv1 or wait for BSv3. BSv2 is starting to sound like a BS ME or BS Vista story to me


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## Cannibal Smurf (23/8/11)

I like the ability to open multiple recipes/tools in tabs, although I dislike having information for each recipe spread through multiple tabs...sure there's a lot more information available but it takes a bit of getting used to.
If Brewmate had a recipe list/preview screen like BS I would switch to that, however, I find it frustrating having to load recipes individually from files.


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## Acasta (23/8/11)

I don't mind it.. To be honest, I was expecting more changes to it then there were. The layout takes some time to adapt to, but I find it works well because you can look at each section of the brew individually.


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## hefejimbo (23/8/11)

I am one massive fan of Beersmith 2...

The ability to add grains via percentage makes life so much easier...

I have found that you can adjust settings to how you like, although they may be different to whatr you are used to..

The "add on" button will make life easier to add ingredients (once in the beersmith archieve)..

All in all, I loved beermisth 1, but know i love beersmith 2 even more!

Could not think of even contemplating a brew day without beersmith 2..

Cheers


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## argon (23/8/11)

Whilst i like BS2... i don't find it all that much better than BS1. Sure the grain % and grain substitute are handy, but as Wolfy points out, spreading the info across many tabs is a bit naff.

Another thing that irks me is in the calender view it doesn't show the days of the week; ie Monday, Tuesday etc, just the numbers.

As with BS1 I still use Mr malty for yeast as i find the yeast starter tab/section pretty useless. Also, I still use EZwater Calculator as it's super easy to use and understand, giving me feedback on potential Ph etc. The BS water profiler doesn't really do anything for me. So these things weren't really addressed in BS2... that was probably my main disappointment in the BS2 release.


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## drtomc (23/8/11)

WarmBeer said:


> Beersmith 2 *doesn't* crash when running it via Wine on Ubuntu.
> 
> Beersmith 1 does.
> 
> Good enough for me.



Really? I've been using BS 1 under Wine on Ubuntu for a couple of years. I've never had it crash.

Curious....

T.


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## Pennywise (23/8/11)

joshuahardie said:


> BTW, this may have been covered elsewhere, but I use beersmith on a flash drive so I can move it between machines.
> because in BS2 it stores all the files in a dedicated directory. For me this is F:/BeerSmith2
> 
> However if I move to a machine that reads the flashdrive as another drive letter, eg G: then all of my files cannot be read.
> ...



I'm having the same issues and would also like to know if there's a way around it


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## joshuahardie (23/8/11)

Pennywise said:


> I'm having the same issues and would also like to know if there's a way around it



This might work

I know I can change the assosicated drive letter in windows
this is under control panel --> Administrative Tools --> Computer Management
Then select disk management. right click on your flash drive and choose "Change Driver Letter and Paths"

You have to change the drive letter to the driver letter that the machine assigned the flashdrive when the application was first installed (i think)

It worked for me on my home PC, but it is a real pain keep changing driver letters, not to mention that on my laptop F:\ is assigned to a different drive. So to get around the problem, I probably have to reinstall BS2 to a different drive altogether. Maybe there is a better way?

Would be good if I could just tell the program to look in a folder inside the Beer Smith directory and it just looks for \\beersmith\reciepes rather than worry about drive letters.

If anyone has ideas I am all ears


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## Murcluf (23/8/11)

One thing I too love about BS1 is it's portablity I can use it on HDD or USB regardless of drive mapping and on both Windows and Linux OS's and I can replicate my BS across computers without reinstallation or registration. if it ain't broke don't fix it


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## seemax (23/8/11)

joshuahardie said:


> I agree with you too Wolfy,
> 
> I love BS1, and assumed that BS2 would be an improvement.
> 
> ...



Setup a dummy drive on your machines (http://majorgeeks.com/Virtual_CD-ROM_Control_Panel_d4402.html) so that you have the same number on each machines (eg. up to E), then when you plug in your USB drive it should always appear as the next letter (F, G , etc). Only takes a few minutes to setup.


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## cdbrown (23/8/11)

joshuahardie said:


> I agree with you too Wolfy,
> 
> I love BS1, and assumed that BS2 would be an improvement.
> 
> ...


I run both v1 and v2 off a flash drive and haven't seen your issue. I thought it just looked in the local directory that you run beersmith from. Are you exporting the recipes instead of storing them in folders within the beersmith program?

I quite like the new layout of beersmith, I'm able to set up my system better, I like the yeast info (which I've used and have actually been hitting the target FG rather than being higher due to low pitch rate), I am now taking the grav readings at different points and it's helping me understand the process better. Haven't tried the other options so can't really compare to anything but v1.


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## bignath (23/8/11)

Quick question, not trying to derail thread....

If i was dumb enough (highly likely) to have uninstalled version 1 when i upgraded to version 2, does anyone know if its possible to downgrade back to version 1?

Might come in handy one day.

On beersmith website there seems to be a link on the beersmith 1.4 support page to download the installer again, but the bloody work internet filter won't let me do it....

And i'm impatient sometimes, and now think i will have to wait until i get home to try the link....


Carry on gentlemen, sorry for slight OT...


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## PistolPatch (25/8/11)

Great thread Wolfy :icon_cheers:

I was on the beta team of BeerSmith2 and there's a few things I'd like to say...

1. The first is that Brad Smith is very dedicated and that _*is*_ very important.

2. I think he gets hammered with suggestions / corrections and it is only the squeakiest wheel that he can pay attention to. (I also think that after a while, any program writer gets lost in minor details and can forget the major ones.)

3. BeerSmith1 actually had several major incorrect calculations. BeerSmith2 has most of these corrected but there are a few more I have noticed. They are important but not critical. (Actually, they _*are*_ critical - see my last point).

4. I never even had time to stop and consider the layout of BeerSmith2 (too busy on the things above) but I would agree with the previous posts. More tabs make the program far less transparent / useful.

5. The "brewhouse efficiency" versus ""mash efficiency" issue has been carried over to BeerSmith2 and I am surprised no one has mentioned it. Unless a user understands this issue, there is _*no*_ way they can even begin to use the program properly. See here. Reading through this link will show how difficult it is for a new user let alone an experienced one to use the program correctly and the last part of that link hints at how many ways a new user (and experienced users) can easily go wrong.

This is, by far, the major weakness in the program - most other faults are cosmetic.

6. Every brewing program I have seen has non-existent or very lazy help. BeerSmith2 is no exception. The definitions, whilst much better than other programs are still quite ambiguous. In my opinion, help and definitions are the most important part of any program.

7. I said above that there were errors in the formulas and this was important but not critical. It _*is *_critical though. For example, there are still errors in the hop formulae though these are better than BeerSmith1. The reason they are critical is that the only way we home brewers have of transmitting IBU information is via formulas - we cannot test every brew we do. Currently, BS2 will not scale some parts of your hop bill and the bits it does scale are not accurate. Scale it several times and the original hop bill can be quickly distorted.

... 

Given the above, I think you have two choices. You can criticise BeerSmith2 or help it.

I've been roped into working on the new BIABrewer.info spreadsheet so I don't have the time to help BeerSmith2 now. I think though, that if you want to help Brad improve BeerSmith2, you really need to write on the BeerSmith forum. Maybe it will help, maybe not? 

Personally, I think his site is a real asset to the brewing community but I too, am frustrated by the above problems - more so than you can imagine.

All I can say is that posting your thoughts on the BeerSmith site might end up in a result. Posting here is a good place to gather your thoughts but unless someone posts on the BeerSmith site and others back him/her up, it will be nothing more than a gathering of thoughts...

 
Pat


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## Wolfy (25/8/11)

PistolPatch said:


> All I can say is that posting your thoughts on the BeerSmith site might end up in a result.


Yeah but that'd only work if other people feel the same, and since there are so many people using BS2, I was not sure if I was the only one that hated the layout and found all the new stuff of limited or no use. 
So far I've learned that everything people find useful or good about the BS2 upgrade is of little or no relevance to me, so it looks like I'll continue to (happily) use BS1, which is fine by me.

But will see how much I get burned for posting on the BS forums like you suggested: http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,5672.0.html


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## DUANNE (25/8/11)

i find bs2 a little more dificult to use but really like being able to have several recipes open at a time in the tabs so i can go back and forth over old recipes and use the results to help make a new recipe. i dont like the new setup for importing and exporting recipes and things though.


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## jkmeldrum (25/8/11)

I used BS V1 previously on my PC but was quite excited V2 was Mac compatible. 

But I've had no end of troubles with it, Brad Smith has had a look at my problems but yet to get back to me with a fix. Constant crashes and it looks like it's a problem with the recipe files after multiple uninstalls, installs.

Can't say I was overly impressed with V2 over V1....I actually liked the simpler layout of V1 with the single screen view.

All I need to see is my ingredients, my hop additions and timings, and the ability to scale recipes....that's pretty much it, it's home brewing not rocket science!

Whilst waiting to hear back from Brad Smith I bought BeerTools Pro and I've gotta say - after you get used to it, and calibrate all your equipment, it's brilliant for what I want. Great interface, easy to use, easy to save default settings and templates for frequently brewed beer styles.

I guess that's what happens when you let the competition in....I'm staying with Beer Tools Pro.


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## drsmurto (6/9/11)

Haven't really played around with beersmith 2 much as the small amount of time i get to brew these days involves copying and pasting recipes i have already done and then brewing them.

One problem i am having with it is the concentrated boil, top up after boil scenario. Beersmith 1 had no troubles with it.

Last batch i did was a double batch of golden ale, a recipe i have done once or twice  

I don't have ink in my printer so can't do what i normally do and print out a brewsheet for the shed that i can follow/track my progress. So i wrote it down.

It was only when i was about to sparge when i came across a problem. I didn't have enough water in the HLT to hit my target pre-boil volume. I assumed i had made an error so went back to beersmith and discovered that no matter what volume of water i add to the 'top up water' after boil option the amount of sparge water doesn't change. Lucky i twigged to that as i still out of habit record the volume i collect in buckets and pour into the kettle so i knew what i had and what was in the HLT didn't add up to my target. I was abe to top up the HLT with some water and it was play on.

I am going to assume i am making the error somewhere here so if anyone has the time and the inclination could they have a play around with this and see if i am doing something wrong?

I aim for 40L pre-boil, that goes down to 32ish post boil (90 mins) and then i top up with 10L of boiling water at flameout. After loss to trub and cooling loss is taken into account i get 2 x 20L into fermenters (well, i would have had i not made a couple of rookie mistakes and left the taps on the fermenters open. Both of them. Then i tripped over the hose and sent wort flying acorsss the shed <_< )


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## keifer33 (6/9/11)

There was a similar problem in an earlier version...but the auto update feature was also broken...so rolling out an update isn't easy. Try downloading the most recent version from the website and see if that fixes it.


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## PistolPatch (6/9/11)

DrSmurto said:


> ... (well, i would have had i not made a couple of rookie mistakes and left the taps on the fermenters open. Both of them. Then i tripped over the hose and sent wort flying acorsss the shed...)


LOL DS,

If you go to the Water Volumes tab and change either 'Kettle Top Up' (pre-boil) or 'Top Up Water' (in the fermentor) the 'Sparge Vol' will change BUT, it won't change on the Brew Steps sheet until you save the recipe which means closing it first .

Does that fix things for you? (It may not. I seem to recall another problem with one of the 'top ups' but was told it related only to extract brewers which actually didn't make much sense to me.)

I've noticed a few other things that need improving. The first is certainly not critical - it's simply that, 'Total Water Needed,' is actually based on the water volume at boiling point not ambient.

The second is that, like many other programs, the Tinseth formula is not being based on the average gravity of the boil during the time of the addition. Whilst not a huge issue, it still is an issue and can be major in some recipes. A few of us were scratching our heads over at BIABrewer.info wondering why our Tinseth IBU's on the new spreadsheet we are developing weren't coming out the same as the major programs. We wrote to Tinseth and the formula we will be using is correct and scales correctly. Phew!

The third issue is that the aroma hops in BeerSmith2 aren't scaling correctly.

I have written to Brad on the last two issues but didn't worry about the first.

So, anyone who is getting confused on IBU's, don't get too hung up on differences between programs. Most (I think all from memory), are, very surprisingly, using an incorrect gravity and/or volume basis with Tinseth and will therefore not read correctly in the first place let alone after they have been scaled a few times  .


Pat

P.S. In light of the above, I hope your DSGA sample recipe in BeerSmith2 has not been buggered up too much as it was put through quite a few scalings. (I'll write to you on this soon but thanks once again for letting me use DSGA as a sample BIAB recipe :icon_cheers: )


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## Logman (7/9/11)

DrSmurto said:


> It was only when i was about to sparge when i came across a problem. I didn't have enough water in the HLT to hit my target pre-boil volume. I assumed i had made an error so went back to beersmith and discovered that no matter what volume of water i add to the 'top up water' after boil option the amount of sparge water doesn't change. Lucky i twigged to that as i still out of habit record the volume i collect in buckets and pour into the kettle so i knew what i had and what was in the HLT didn't add up to my target. I was abe to top up the HLT with some water and it was play on.



I'm a total amateur with Beersmith but I think you use 'scale recipe' to change the batch size and everything changes automatically. Double click the recipe from the list and 'scale recipe' appears in the top left corner of the GUI.


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## Logman (7/9/11)

Wait up, new I got that wrong, you need to press OK...

Edit - so weird because now I can get it to change without the problem you mention but I had the same problem once before and had to search around at the time to try and work out what was wrong. :unsure:


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## Batz (20/9/11)

I find the colour (of your beer) is far to light in B.S. 2 recipe indicator


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## Screwtop (20/10/11)

Update 2.0.46 available now.

Lots of fixes from Brad and the team. Hops can now be priced in inventory by hectogram (100g) which kind of fixes the problem. I don't believe all that many brewers actually use inventory pricing, but hey it's one of Beersmiths stable of database querys/filters. There is still the issue of pricing in the inventory window, opening a hop variety in the edit window only allows pricing to 2 decimal points, however using the Set Price tool in the toolbar above allows for more precise setting of the price as more decimal places can entered. The inclusion of the new hops per hectogram kind of fixes the problem, but I would have preferred to see the decimals extended in the edit field. Surely we can all divide the cost of our hops by the number of grams purchased.

Am I nit picking, absolutely! More something to be aware of that requiring a fix. So for the perfectionist/anally retentive/pedantic/nerd brewer:

Lets say you purchased 2 x 90g packs of hops from Craftbrewer. Cost of these is lets say $24.60 including freight. Using the cost per gram we simply divide the $24.60 by 180 and enter the price as 1.3666 The resultant price is displayed as $25.20 not the actual $24.60 due to rounding to two decimal points. However if we use the Set Price tool and enter the price as 1.3666c per gram then the price is displayed correctly as $24.60

Screwy


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## argon (20/10/11)

I thought i was the only one that got annoyed by that


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## drsmurto (20/10/11)

Have they fixed up calcium chloride? It's CaCl2, not CaCl.


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## Screwtop (20/10/11)

DrSmurto said:


> Have they fixed up calcium chloride? It's CaCl2, not CaCl.



No they haven't ............. even CaCl2 would do  

Screwy


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## stux (20/10/11)

Screwtop said:


> Update 2.0.46 available now.
> 
> Lots of fixes from Brad and the team. Hops can now be priced in inventory by hectogram (100g) which kind of fixes the problem. I don't believe all that many brewers actually use inventory pricing, but hey it's one of Beersmiths stable of database querys/filters. There is still the issue of pricing in the inventory window, opening a hop variety in the edit window only allows pricing to 2 decimal points, however using the Set Price tool in the toolbar above allows for more precise setting of the price as more decimal places can entered. The inclusion of the new hops per hectogram kind of fixes the problem, but I would have preferred to see the decimals extended in the edit field. Surely we can all divide the cost of our hops by the number of grams purchased.
> 
> ...



Well, I'm happy enough being able to set my hop prices to 45$ a kilogram now... before I was stuck with 40 or 50$ which meant I was out exactly as much either under or over!

BeerSmith's rounding issues are insane though. Just store everything as full precision, calculate full precision and display rounded! Simple!

Probably what happens when people who only know how to deal in fractions of non-metric units write formulas


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## technoicon (20/10/11)

I'm loving the BIAB stuff in V2


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## edschache (20/10/11)

Is there a way to bulk import prices? Would love to be able to import all of the CraftBrewer prices rather than setting them manually.... just a thought.

Cheers,

Ed


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