# How Much Sodium Percarbonate Do You Use?



## Wolfy

Sodium Percarbonate (or it's illegitimate love child NapiSan) is widely used as a cleaner/soak for many brewery applications.
However, despite the extensive reference and numerous threads, I can't seem to find any clear indication as to what the recommended usage rate for 'general' cleaning is.

By 'general' cleaning I really mean soaking/cleaning fermenters and bottles, and for the sake of simplicity lets talk about the usage rate of 'pure' Sodium Percarbonate, which may need to be adjusted if you're using 20-30% NapiSan.

Numerous sources like BreWiki simply suggest that the usage rate depends on soilage, which while it might be true is not very helpful.

Most of the AHB general forum comments (in the many threads I searched) indicate that a usage rate of 1 to 3 teaspoons per full fermenter is the 'accepted usage' rate, this equates to 0.2-0.6g/L.

The usage rate for P.B.W. - which contains Sodium Percarbonate - suggests (_see downloadable product .pdf_) 1-3 Oz per Gallon (7.5-22.5g/L).

Beerbelly suggests 10g/L and Grain and Grape's Oxyper (a mix of Sodium Percarbonate and Hydrogen Peroxide) suggests a usage rate of 7-10g/L.

Given that the 'commercial' recommended usage rate is 16 to 112 times more than what many people have reported using with success that seems like a massive difference to me.

At the end of a brew or bottling day, I fill a fermenter with hot water and 2-3 teaspoons of Sodium Percarbonate, throw all the spoons, taps, gaskets, measuring glasses etc inside and let it soak over night. The next day (in general) a quick wipe over and rinse and everything appears to be totally clean - even the stuff caked onto the sides of the fermenter has been removed.
So I'm not sure I can imagine using 1/4 kg of the stuff it in the same single fermenter clean and soak.

I'd be very interested to know what quantity of Sodium Percarbonate (Napisan) everyone else uses, and if there are any tips/suggestions for the use of Sodium Percarbonate as a general brewery cleaner.
If there is a general consensus on usage rate, application and applicability, I might make a 'Cleaning with Sodium Percarbonate' AHB Article for quick reference in the future.


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## jiesu

Wow I am glad you put this thread up, I have been using it at the rate that is suggested by the manufacturer. Lucky I have only just got my first batch of it. 

I think it is important to state in what form you are using it so the quantities are relevant. (Napisan Oxiaction) for me.


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## RetsamHsam

Wolfy said:


> for the sake of simplicity lets talk about the usage rate of 'pure' Sodium Percarbonate, which may need to be adjusted if you're using 20-30% NapiSan.






daft templar said:


> I think it is important to state in what form you are using it so the quantities are relevant. (Napisan Oxiaction) for me.



This should clear things up


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## Maple

I use pinches, dashes, and sometimes a shake. Really don't measure, but it will depend on what I'm doing. for example, if its a relatively clean fermenter (like just did a 4 week ferment of a light lager with really low krusen) there may not bee the gunk build up, and i will probably employ the dash, or a couple of pinches. If i just did a Wheatie where the yeasties tried to exacpe from pentridge, it'll be the shake. more for more, less for less. 

in terms of your poll, on average, i'd say about a tablespoon plus per fermenter. for soaking bottles, way less (maybe 1/4 of it) but I really don't do that too often.

edit: using pure form.


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## Sammus

Wolfy said:


> Most of the AHB general forum comments (in the many threads I searched) indicate that a usage rate of 1 to 3 teaspoons per full fermenter is the 'accepted usage' rate, this equates to 0.2-0.6g/L.
> 
> The usage rate for P.B.W. - which contains Sodium Percarbonate - suggests (_see downloadable product .pdf_) 1-3 Oz per Gallon (7.5-22.5g/L).



Hmmm I wonder if this is why those PBW advocates are always yabbering about how it is like a supercharged sodium percarb, doing everything better and faster. I guess that'll happen when you're using 100x as much...


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## Fents

Sammus said:


> Hmmm I wonder if this is why those PBW advocates are always yabbering about how it is like a supercharged sodium percarb, doing everything better and faster. I guess that'll happen when you're using 100x as much...



i use PBW exactly the same as Sod Perc and thats exactly the same as Maple with dash's, sprinkles and shakes. I rate PBW over Percarb any day at the same usage rates.


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## TidalPete

One heaped teaspoon 100% Sodium Perc\30 litre fermenter here.
Haven't bought a new fermenter for a while now. Can you get 25 litre fermenters????? I have an old 27 litre that I use for racking when required.

TP


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## zebba

Using the same stuff I got in Wolfy's bulk buy, I started using about 2 heaped tablespoons per fermenter. Every brew I've dropped the amount, and I'm now down to 2 level teaspoons.

I still leave it overnight, light rinse the next day. 2 level teaspoons is working just as well. Next time I'll try even less.

Great stuff, and can't be beaten for value in my experience.

Re: Sodium Perc v PBW, my limited experience says they both have their place. I'm soaking my kettle (with inbuilt electric element) ATM in PBW, and the scale (which was REALLY bad on the element) is coming off in sheets. Sodium perc for fermenters, paddles, etc, PBW for baked on stuff.

I also believe that sodium perc will stain aluminium (due to the oxidising effect). PBW (being a caustic cleaner) won't. Don't quote me here though.


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## razz

Geez, and I've been using PBW at 1 teaspoon per 2.5 lts. That doesn't look like much when it comes out of a 1.8 kg tub but when I make up 20 lts of the stuff that's 8 teaspoons. I think I'll try half that in future. Zebba, how much PBW did you use to clean your electric element?


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## Nick JD

Pink Napisan - half a cap in the fermenter full of water. 24 hours, no scrubbing.

EDIT: my local Coles last week had the 2kg tubs for $10.


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## Fourstar

Depends on what the concentrate (active ingredient) % is. The Aldi brand cheapest one is something small like 15% where as the woolies version (although now lemon scented <_< ) is around 25%. I vary the dose until it gets a thick silky feel between the fingers. Its usually 1tsp for 2L. With the aldi cheapest brand I use one heaped tsp per 2L.


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## Ross

TidalPete said:


> One heaped teaspoon 100% Sodium Perc\30 litre fermenter here.
> 
> TP



Easy does it Pete, at those rates you might turn your fermenter white  

Cheers Ross


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## Fourstar

Ross said:


> Easy does it Pete, at those rates you might turn your fermenter white
> 
> Cheers Ross



That would be a shame wouldnt it ross!


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## TidalPete

Ross said:


> Easy does it Pete, at those rates you might turn your fermenter white
> 
> Cheers Ross



:lol: 
White is good Rossco.

TP


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## Bribie G

I've been using a third of a lid in a full fermenter. I bought 10k in a bulk buy months ago, still have a heap to go.
Ross, the Chemical Mob at Clontarf wholesale a 25k sack of it for about $85 - have you ever thought of selling 500g or Kilo lots ex Craftbrewer? I'm sure there would be interest.


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## Ross

BribieG said:


> I've been using a third of a lid in a full fermenter. I bought 10k in a bulk buy months ago, still have a heap to go.
> Ross, the Chemical Mob at Clontarf wholesale a 25k sack of it for about $85 - have you ever thought of selling 500g or Kilo lots ex Craftbrewer? I'm sure there would be interest.




Bribie, 

Pure SP is not a very effective cleaner, so no we don't have any plans to supply it. However, for a well priced alternative to napisan, free of phosphates & scents....you'll have to watch this space  


Cheers Ross


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## zebba

razz said:


> Zebba, how much PBW did you use to clean your electric element?


I used the Craftbrewer web page as a rough guide and went with 2 teaspoons into 4ish litres of water.


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## bullfrog

Ross said:


> Bribie,
> 
> Pure SP is not a very effective cleaner, so no we don't have any plans to supply it. However, for a well priced alternative to napisan, free of phosphates & scents....you'll have to watch this space
> 
> 
> Cheers Ross



Now I'm no chemist by a long shot, but I was of the understanding that phosphates were good in a cleaner. Or is that just in no-rinse sanitisers?


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## jiesu

While we are on the topic. I have 2 questions reguarding Sodium precarbonate (in its Napisan form)

Firstly, Is their Going to be any issues using in the average sort of consentration levels if I am to leave it within the fermenter for a month or so ie. until next use. 

Secondly, I have three fermenters and a cube full of it atm so about 100L worth, Any issues with using it to water the garden with?


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## JonnyAnchovy

I generally use an accuratly measured metric shittone of sodium percarb in my glass fermenting carboy - about three teaspoons. 

Totally overdoing it, but boy does it sparkle afterward. 

PBW seems from experience to be better, but in the end it's a cost thing.


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## monkale

Big fan of the Pink Napisan,I never use an exact amount just chuck a bit in and she be right :icon_cheers: 


Cheers


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## Gout

I tend to use sod. percarb. for really dirty brewing gear - eg after a brew all my gear gets a wash - its cheap and does the job fine. Then before i use it again i use PBW to ensure its clean : overkill maybe but it works and for the tiny cost i am happy to stick with it. (follow up with starstan)

when a nice pint cant cost $12 (bars in melb) i dont mind a few cents here and there to brew my own


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## mika

I think the stuff I'm using is pure Sodium Percarb. Usually about a tablespoon per couple of litres. If I'm cleaning a keg, a smallish cup full. Is that excessive ? :huh:


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## Wolfy

daft templar said:


> While we are on the topic. I have 2 questions reguarding Sodium precarbonate (in its Napisan form)
> 
> Firstly, Is their Going to be any issues using in the average sort of consentration levels if I am to leave it within the fermenter for a month or so ie. until next use.
> 
> Secondly, I have three fermenters and a cube full of it atm so about 100L worth, Any issues with using it to water the garden with?


I think it breaks down fairly quickly, so after a while you'll just be soaking in mostly-water.
I rinse with acidified bleach then let things dry while being stored before I use them next, I find that - for me - that works much better than leaving them soaking.

In one of the other Sodium Percarbonate threads, someone mentioned they use the left-overs to water their garden and even the newly grown plants have no problems with it.


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## zebba

daft templar said:


> Secondly, I have three fermenters and a cube full of it atm so about 100L worth, Any issues with using it to water the garden with?


I've been pouring mine on the garden with no ill effects BUT I only put down about a brew a month. Sounds like you're brewing a lot more then me...


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## TidalPete

BribieG said:


> I've been using a third of a lid in a full fermenter.



Too lazy to do it myself Bribie, but how many level teaspoons in a Napisan lid? Just curious mate?

TP


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## manticle

I'm very specific about the amount I use. I use woolworths brand 30% SP oxygen bleach and I always measure 
out exactly (based on a ratio of vessel size: volume of solution): 1 shake per bit of water plus a bit more sometimes. 

Super hot water, leave to soak, works a treat.

Goes on the herb/veg garden when it's cool.


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## TidalPete

manticle said:


> I'm very specific about the amount I use. I use woolworths brand 30% SP oxygen bleach and I always measure
> out exactly (based on a ratio of vessel size: volume of solution): 1 shake per bit of water plus a bit more sometimes.
> 
> Super hot water, leave to soak, works a treat.
> 
> Goes on the herb/veg garden when it's cool.



Pardon my ignorance manticle but you are saying that hot* (Boiling?) *water is more effective when using Sodium Perc? I just use hot water out of the tap (60 deg c I guess?).
How do you rinse?

TP


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## mika

manticle said:


> .......
> Goes on the herb/veg garden when it's cool.



I wouldn't have thought that was a very good idea. The stuff I have works even if in cool water (though admittedly, nowhere as well as in hot water) and it's job is to dissolve organic matter.
I pour my leftovers on the weeds and haven't needed to spray them in a while.


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## thesunsettree

TidalPete said:


> Pardon my ignorance manticle but you are saying that hot* (Boiling?) *water is more effective when using Sodium Perc? I just use hot water out of the tap (60 deg c I guess?).
> How do you rinse?
> 
> TP




i have been led to believe that 70deg is the optimal temp, that being said i generally use tap water as hot as it will go (i.e. 60ish deg)

cheers
matt


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## Bribie G

Fourstar said:


> Depends on what the concentrate (active ingredient) % is. The Aldi brand cheapest one is something small like 15% where as the woolies version (although now lemon scented <_< ) is around 25%. I vary the dose until it gets a thick silky feel between the fingers. Its usually 1tsp for 2L. With the aldi cheapest brand I use one heaped tsp per 2L.



Just looking at my latest ALDI newsletter. _Achtung gibt es einem newsletter fur ihnen_ - h34r: And they list 3 grades of cleaner in identical kilo tubs:

Nappy and Laundry treatment $2.49
Advanced Laundry Soaker $3.99
Oxy Laundry Soaker $4.99

I guess as you go up the grades you get more perc, you get what you pay for. However for fermenter cleaning I expect they are all good, because the less perc varieties would have more normal detergent, which is always useful as well for basic cleaning.


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## Wolfy

TidalPete said:


> Pardon my ignorance manticle but you are saying that hot* (Boiling?) *water is more effective when using Sodium Perc? I just use hot water out of the tap (60 deg c I guess?).


The hotter the water the more 'active' the chemical reaction that produces hydrogen peroxide will be, I thought it was best around 76C (but just use hot tap water myself), I'd guess that boiling water would be better than cold too.


mika said:


> I wouldn't have thought that was a very good idea. The stuff I have works even if in cool water (though admittedly, nowhere as well as in hot water) and it's job is to dissolve organic matter.
> I pour my leftovers on the weeds and haven't needed to spray them in a while.


When disolved in water Sodium Percarbonate releases Hydrogen Peroxide (which dissipates as a gas or turns into water) and Soda Ash (sodium carbonate), that's why it's used in a range of "eco friendly" cleaners and if used in the "AHB recommended quantities" I'm pretty sure it will be fine on your plants.  However when using NapiSan you have another 70% of the product to worry about, so you might be right those things may not be so plant-friendly.


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## manticle

@Tidal Pete: my measurement of the hot water is as accurate as my dosage. I usually wack a 15 L pot on the stove, fill the fermenter with it, then top up with hot tap water. I always leave to soak but I have found that the hot water seems to activate the solution and clean better. Unscientific observation only. I think my hot tap water is only high 50s though. At the end of the day, if your equipment is clean, it's clean - even a cold soak will get you there. I used to just use cold water (no chemical), soak for 24 hours and clean with a sponge but I find the hot + oxygen bleach works better and faster.

To rinse, I just use cold tap water (again used to water the garden) and make sure I can feel no slickness when I rub the plastic. With bottles, I rinse till there's a lack of foam formation.

@Mika - I've been doing it for a while. I can't bring myself to discard that amount of water and the herbs seem to thrive from the extra. It is fully biodegradeable (yes even the non-sodium percarb bit). I haven't needed to water my garden using anything but brew cleaning and rinsing water for some time (about three times during 45 degree summer days are the only exception).


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