# Immersion Chiller Vs Counterflow Chiller Design



## rotten (4/3/11)

Gday all.
Although I no chill right now, it does give me trouble and restless nights. I will be moving to either an immersion chiller or counterflow chiller in the next month or so, most likely make it myself.
What are your personal opinonions on either?
Do you have a design which may be different to published designs? Maybe a published design is the way to go?
I have decided against plate chillers for the record, blockages don't interest me.
Manufactured products could be the go if the price is right, I will have a 50 ltr kettle in the very near future.
Cheers


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## slacka (4/3/11)

rotten said:


> Do you have a design which may be different to published designs? Maybe a published design is the way to go?


I take it that you've looked at Jamil's whirlpool chiller?
linky


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## rotten (5/3/11)

Without trying to sound condescending, yes I have. looks great, would rather not use a pump though, which is really required for a counterflow chiller. Maybe even two pumps actually, one for whirlpool in this case and one for wort.
Cheers.


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## puffer555 (5/3/11)

I personally love my whirlpool immersion chiller.
Started with a plate chiller, but got a couple of blockages, and didn't like the fact I couldn't clean inside.
Basically just bought 20 ft (I think) length of 1/2" copper tube from Bunnings and bent it myself.
A few brass compression fittings and some male tap fittings, and I was done.
Technically you dont need a pump if you constantly stir to create the whirlpool.
I use one pump. Allows me to keep everything closed and also minimises splashing.
The pump is just for the whirlpool. Tap water flows through the inside of the copper.
Anyway, I would highly recomend one.
Chills the entire wort at once, not just the bit flowing through the chiller.


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## speedie (5/3/11)

hay rotten hows it going
firstly lets look at what you posted 
immersion chilllers are ineffeiceate in cooling 
they dont have the coefficent of counterflow 
that a tube in tube chiller has
picture this the coldest leaving point from a counter flow style exchanger is the incoming cooling medium being your tap or mains water
provided there is aduquite flow 
phuck speell queche
speedster


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## rotten (5/3/11)

Points taken.
But if you have twice as much cool water moving through an immerson chiller, wouldn't that cool as much as, or close enough, to a counterflow chiller? 
Given that you can only ever cool to or close too the incoming water temp? 5 mins probably won't make that much difference IMO.
Cheers

Opinions wanted, I can be over opinionated at times.
Cheers


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## speedie (5/3/11)

rotten 
if you understand the principal of high too low hot too cold 
then and only then the grasp of a cooling medium will come too u
if we pass too much cooling ,medium through either chilling process we get a bypass or slip effect
ie the medium doesnt have enough time too absorb the energy that you are trying too remove
stated the higher the flow rate doest mean more heat removale
ps hope things are brewin well
enigma :lol:


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## mh971 (5/3/11)

rotten said:


> Points taken.
> But if you have twice as much cool water moving through an immerson chiller, wouldn't that cool as much as, or close enough, to a counterflow chiller?
> Given that you can only ever cool to or close too the incoming water temp? 5 mins probably won't make that much difference IMO.
> Cheers
> ...



Rotten
I have been researching same thing and done few calcs. A fairly simple tube counter flow heat exchanger has roughly twice the contact surface area of a coil type immersion "chiller" using 15m of copper tube, plus if you get the flows and gaps correct it is more efficient because your only dropping the temp of wort in heat exchanger rather than trying to do whole kettle at once. It could almost be efficient enough to use as a transfer step rather than recirculating wort and if designed correctly could be less susceptible to blockage than a plate style unit.

If you then take a tube counter flow unit and put it in ice, it has around 4 times the surface area and greatly increased efficiency over an immersion unit by my calcs.

I am working on a gravity fed unit at moment, will post when prototype ready.

But I have been told on here by a couple of experts with an apparent monopoly on knowledge that i don't know what i'm talking about on wort cooling so will leave details till i have real data.



editted for gramma and typos


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## mh971 (5/3/11)

speedie said:


> rotten
> if you understand the principal of high too low hot too cold
> then and only then the grasp of a cooling medium will come too u
> if we pass too much cooling ,medium through either chilling process we get a bypass or slip effect
> ...


 
I tried to provide that information to someone on here once speedie, ( flow rate and time for heat absorbtion), but I was informed by some that apparently physics isn't the universal rule of matter and energy I thought it was. 

Telling people they don't currently understand, and need to, before grasping a concept really puts people off of taking advice, and makes others disregard post. This type of text is so common on here and really is counterproductive. If we all just stick to facts, theories and opinions about the subject and not the posters this would be better.


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## Peteoz77 (5/3/11)

I use an immersion chiller to cool around 42 litres for every batch. In the summer (tap water is around 26 degrees) it takes about 20 minutes to get the wort from boiling down to about 30 degrees. Then the wort goes into fermenters and into the fermentation fridge where it cools to 18 before pitching the yeast (about 3 hours). In the winter (tap water is about 13 degrees) it takes about 20 minutes to get the wort down to 21 degrees.

20 minutes is a almost exactly 100 liters, which I know because I used to catch it ll and water the garden when we were in drought. This amount varies if you run the water faster, but it really doesn't cool much faster, so I don't waste the water.

So, I wonder how much faster a counterflow chiller could be? I could have built one instead of the immersion chiller, but I really don't like the idea of running my wort through a copper tube that I can't see inside of. I know they are easy enough to clean, but I still prefer the immersion chiller where it is all out in the open. The other thing I don't like about the counterflow chiller, as that just like a plate chiller, the wort all sits at boiling temperature until it finally goes through the chiller. Not sure how long this takes, but even 10 minutes makes a WORLD of difference to your aroma hops. The immersion chiller drops ALL of your wort VERY quickly from boiling down to about 50 degrees (well below the point where hops convert to bittering) in only a few minutes. SO the counterflow might be a little bit faster, but only for the beginning of the wort, the last part of the wort is sitting there cooking your flavour and aroma hops a lot longer than with the immersion chiller.

Or, I could be wrong...


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## mh971 (5/3/11)

Peteoz77 said:


> I use an immersion chiller to cool around 42 litres for every batch. In the summer (tap water is around 26 degrees) it takes about 20 minutes to get the wort from boiling down to about 30 degrees. Then the wort goes into fermenters and into the fermentation fridge where it cools to 18 before pitching the yeast (about 3 hours). In the winter (tap water is about 13 degrees) it takes about 20 minutes to get the wort down to 21 degrees.
> 
> 20 minutes is a almost exactly 100 liters, which I know because I used to catch it ll and water the garden when we were in drought. This amount varies if you run the water faster, but it really doesn't cool much faster, so I don't waste the water.
> 
> ...




Pete,

I currently slow chill (straight to fermenter and bung in freezer) as I have not yet made a chiller. For me its more about what I can get my hands on easily, which is, in my case, larger bore pipe and fittings. I hadn't considered the effect on the aroma hops but on balance the first half of wort to be cooled should retain more aroma and the second half will lose more (although actuals will not be linear) over the immersion style. This will be affected by flow rates though and is something else critical to include in size calculations.

I am not yet sold completely on chilling and may just cube and no chill so I am not particulalry attached to either method, my thouhgts on counterflow are only from reading about heat transfer on non brewing related sites and cost.

Saw an immersion chiller on another link on here where the guy recirculated wort from kettle tap back into kettle in centre of immersion chiller coil and reckons he got to pitching temp in 5 minutes, if you already had a pump it would be pretty hard to beat that.


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## Wolfy (5/3/11)

rotten said:


> Although I no chill right now, it does give me trouble and restless nights. I will be moving to either an immersion chiller or counterflow chiller in the next month or so, most likely make it myself.
> What are your personal opinonions on either?
> Do you have a design which may be different to published designs? Maybe a published design is the way to go?


If you are going to make it yourself, it's not rocket science, and most published designs will be much the same.
An immersion chiller, is simply a number of copper coils that are a suitable size to immerse in your kettle, the only things you need to decide are the size, how to support it and how to attach the hoses - its far easier to DIY than a CFC.

For a CFC the design will be a little more complicated, and you will need to be able to solder copper pipe/attachments at least moderately well.
There are various designs/methods around, but again, they all have much the same concept, in addition you'll also find that the price of the copper connectors required is (probably) more expensive than you realize, which means the overall price will be considerably higher than an immersion.

I really like my DIY CFC, it cools the wort to ale pitching temps (about 1-2 deg above tap water temp) as quickly as I can drain the kettle though the 3/8inch copper pipe (single batch in 10-20mins, using about 40-60l of water for cooling). However, I'm no expert with soldering (so it leaks a little), making it was somewhat difficult (running the copper inside the hose was a painful process) and the overall cost of DIY came close to that of a commercial product. 

As a starting point, I'd suggest you determine which cooling method best suits your needs - but consider that a CFC is going to be more expensive and difficult to build, with the immersion chiller being not too difficult at all. Then look at various designs and methods before selecting what is bet for you, but unless you feel a CFC is most suited to your needs it's probably not worth the extra complexity and cost.


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## Maxt (5/3/11)

I only chill hoppy beers. Love my Jamil chiller!


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## speedie (5/3/11)

the two chillers that i fabricated are soft copper tube rolled out into a straight 10 metre lenght then you slide the 19mm braided hose over the tube roll it around a twenty litre drum 
solder on the tees etc
then what was done next is to series link the wort lines (copper tubes )but break into the water line at mid point and feed water into each unit thus doubling the effect
this cools 400 liters from 96-24 in good time
also i put the chiller before my pump so the hot wort kills any bugs and then goes through the pump cooled
which is good for my pump

rotten i wasnt trying to put you down as others suggested only advise you of flow rates and the outcomes of a higher flow


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## Bribie G (5/3/11)

Speedie, what's the tap water usual temperature where you are?


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## Sammus (5/3/11)

rotten said:


> I have decided against plate chillers for the record, blockages don't interest me.



Geez, certainly glad to hear your open to suggestion and havent made up your mind already at all. Plate chillers are the LEAST prone to blocking of any kind of chiller on the market. Every major brewery in the world chills with a plate chiller. Anything else is just a cheap-ass compromise. My 1/2" full bore ball valves block with hop flower debris more easily than either of the plate chillers I've used. There is no valid argument whatsoever to use anything else.


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## Banshee (6/3/11)

Peteoz77 said:


> I use an immersion chiller to cool around 42 litres for every batch. In the summer (tap water is around 26 degrees) it takes about 20 minutes to get the wort from boiling down to about 30 degrees. Then the wort goes into fermenters and into the fermentation fridge where it cools to 18 before pitching the yeast (about 3 hours). In the winter (tap water is about 13 degrees) it takes about 20 minutes to get the wort down to 21 degrees.
> 
> 20 minutes is a almost exactly 100 liters, which I know because I used to catch it ll and water the garden when we were in drought. This amount varies if you run the water faster, but it really doesn't cool much faster, so I don't waste the water.
> 
> ...



I'm with you. easiest way IMO. Stir at flame out to create whirlpool and chill with immersion.


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## Maxt (6/3/11)

Sammus said:


> .Plate chillers are the LEAST prone to blocking of any kind of chiller on the market. Anything else is just a cheap-ass compromise. My 1/2" full bore ball valves block with hop flower debris more easily than either of the plate chillers I've used. There is no valid argument whatsoever to use anything else.



What a lot of rubbish. Plate chillers do clog. I sold mine because of this. My immersion chiller *can't* clog.

Also, with a plate chiller, you need to whirlpool if you are going to the fermentor straight away, this means your wort is sitting at boil temps for the 10 mins or so it takes the whirlpool to settle (and if it's a hoppy beer you need to whirlpool to avoid trub), then it takes at least that long again (if not more like 20 mins) to run it through. That means your last run off has been at near boil temps for over 20-30 mins.

Even if you recirculate straight from flame out, the wort that is sitting at the top of the vessel (ie, last to pass through chiller) is at boil temps for far longer than when using a recirculating immersion chiller.

My setup gets 30L of wort to under 80 degress (crucial temp to stop hops isomerising) in about 3 minutes.


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## Sammus (6/3/11)

Maxt said:


> What a lot of rubbish. Plate chillers do clog. I sold mine because of this. My immersion chiller *can't* clog.
> 
> Also, with a plate chiller, you need to whirlpool if you are going to the fermentor straight away, this means your wort is sitting at boil temps for the 10 mins or so it takes the whirlpool to settle (and if it's a hoppy beer you need to whirlpool to avoid trub), then it takes at least that long again (if not more like 20 mins) to run it through. That means your last run off has been at near boil temps for over 20-30 mins.
> 
> ...



What a load of rubbish. You don't need to do any of that. My setup gets 25L to 18C in 3 mins after flame out. Sorry but I've never had a clogging problem.


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## Maxt (6/3/11)

25L from 100c to 18c in 3 minutes? Do tell? A video or pics would be even better.


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## speedie (6/3/11)

bribie the water is generally around mid 20s
all breweries use a demountable plate heat exchanger this stlye is way easyer to clean and if there capacity is increased more cells can be added to the body
homebrew units are brazed plate and are very easy to block 
back flush when cleaning use [email protected] 80 degrees


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## browndog (6/3/11)

Maxt said:


> What a lot of rubbish. Plate chillers do clog. I sold mine because of this. My immersion chiller *can't* clog.
> 
> Also, with a plate chiller, you need to whirlpool if you are going to the fermentor straight away, this means your wort is sitting at boil temps for the 10 mins or so it takes the whirlpool to settle (and if it's a hoppy beer you need to whirlpool to avoid trub), then it takes at least that long again (if not more like 20 mins) to run it through. That means your last run off has been at near boil temps for over 20-30 mins.
> 
> ...



I use a plate chiller and have never had a blockage, it all depends on how you set up your pick up in your kettle, as for having to wait 20 mins before the last of the wort is chilled, I'd prefer that any day to having copper oxide in my beer. Ever noticed how nice and shiny your immersions chiller is when you take it out of the kettle?


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## Maxt (6/3/11)

I must be doing something wrong Browndog, mine's never shiny!


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## yardy (6/3/11)

Maxt said:


> 25L from 100c to 18c in 3 minutes? Do tell? A video or pics would be even better.




yeah, i'd like to see that


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## Filby (6/3/11)

Interesting discussion!

As far as an immersion chiller goes I dont understand why people dont use 1/4" copper tube. Firstly its cheaper, but also it has greater surface area for the cooling water so that the 'middle' of the cooling water doest 'slip' through without doing any work. Once you get to sizes like 1/2" the efficiency of the cooler reduces because your not maximising the absorbtion of heat into the water.

The only downside to 1/4" is the amount of friction inside the tube which means you need to make sure all your bends are super smooth otherwise the water will come out in a dribble!

Fil


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## shadders (6/3/11)

Filby said:


> The only downside to 1/4" is the amount of friction inside the tube which means you need to make sure all your bends are super smooth otherwise the water will come out in a dribble!
> 
> Fil



This is even more of a plus IMHO. Factors that will improve heat transfer include higher pressure, lower flow rate, friction and turbulence inside pipe. I have 3/8" pipe but once I get to the last few degrees of the chill I usually kink the outlet hose or put a brick on it reduce flow and increase pressure. If I could figure out and easy way to stutter the flow and create turbulence, pressure waves I reckon that would improve things as well.

Those last few degrees really matter to me because my tap water can get up to high 20's in summer and I like to aerate my wort by dumping it out of the kettle from a great height so I need it down to 27 max to avoid oxidation. I have a second smaller coil which goes into an ice bath for the last few minutes and then on to the main chiller. Before I started doing this I couldn't hit target temps at all in summer.

Also I notice a lot of peoples immersion chillers are perfect coil shapes. Mine was originally this shape until it twigged to me that without whirlpooling the only thing to encourage the cooled wort to move away from the coil and give the hot wort a go was thermal currents. With a tightly wound coil these were severely restricted. I mangled my coil into an odd shape and it worked more efficiently. Basically with every other coil I'd either pull it to slightly tighter coil and the next one a slightly looser coil making sure it wasn't all regular. Now my chiller is ugly as sin but it definitely improved cooling times as the thermal currents become much more chaotic, more like turbulence in the wort.


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## Filby (6/3/11)

What I meant by smooth bends is if you get a small kink in 10m of 1/4" you'd get a flow rate of about 1lt per hour  But I agree, achieving contact time with the cooling water and copper is very important.

The copper condensors I have made have been a double or tripple coil (coil within a coil within a coil) and this, like you were describing, improves movement of the wort so you dont get hot and cold spots forming. A cone shape will also have a similar effect.

Fil


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## rotten (6/3/11)

Thanks for all your input guys.

My thoughts, plate chiller sounds easy, but I get heaps of debris in my brew and dont whirlpool, which is an option I know. Plus I would get caught out with cleaning eventually, it's a next day thing for me as I normally brew at night.

I'm not sure I could build (solder) a counterflow effectively and efficiently, and then there are the cleaning issues. I could just buy one already made.

I do like at the moment the concept of the immersion chiller, oddly made makes sense as well. I could whirlpool with the addition of one of those cheap solar pumps as well when the time is right.

Slow moving cooling liquid makes perfect sense to me for heat transfer. If I moved to no rinse sanitiser or watered the garden, the water used wouldn't be an issue.

Will show pics when I have purchased or made my decision.
Cheers for advice again.
rotten


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## Wolfy (7/3/11)

rotten said:


> If I moved to no rinse sanitiser or watered the garden, the water used wouldn't be an issue.


I collect the cooler-waste-water in a few cubes and then use them for the next few loads of clothes washing.


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## Maxt (7/3/11)

I suppose my method makes sense as I use the water from my 10,000L tanks to chill, and I pump it back into them, so other than a bit of electricity I don't waste resources.


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## adryargument (7/3/11)

Same, i use a simple drill pump to circulate the water from the 2000l Tank. 


Maxt said:


> I suppose my method makes sense as I use the water from my 10,000L tanks to chill, and I pump it back into them, so other than a bit of electricity I don't waste resources.


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## rotten (12/3/11)

Thanks again.
What are peoples thoughts on copper vs stainless immersion chillers. I still plan on using a whirlpool with it, and a solar pump, although I visited the keg king site to look at other stuff and saw the stainless version of the immersion chiller.
Your thoughts.


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## razz (12/3/11)

They both will work rotten, but the copper will exchange heat a lot faster than stainless. It's also a lot cheaper to buy/fabricate.


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## rotten (12/3/11)

Thanks Razz, that's what I was after.
A Scientist I'm not, a beer drinker I am. :lol: 
Cheers


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## Maxt (13/3/11)

I'm still keen to learn more about Sammus' plate chiller rig that drops wort 80degrees in 3 minutes.


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## Davesmith89 (2/8/11)

What about wort oxidisation in the whirlpool just after flame out?? 

In my opionion, you can knock yourself up a immersion chiller for 70 bucks and save the hassle of the extra hoses. I use the hot run off to clean equiptment and keep my finger warm.


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## Hatchy (3/8/11)

Funny to see this thread pop up today rotten. How did that plate chiller work for you?


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