# That Hand Pump Mouthfeel



## bcp (16/6/12)

Stuck in Heathrow because someone stuffed up my visa to Senegal. Have to wait to see if they can pull a rabbit out of a hat at the Senegal end. Nothing to do here but wait with some bangers and mash on the way and a pint of fuller's London Pride. F me dead. It's a fine drop.

I can't seem to replicate the mouthfeel of these handpumps. I think I get the carbonation level is right but it feels more flat than creamy when I do that. 

Has anyone had success? Obviously there are other factors apart from the carb level. Maybe I haven't got that right either. If anyone nails this on a regular basis, I'd love to see your recipe and carb level. I bottle condition, so that might be another relevant factor.


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## fcmcg (17/6/12)

bcp said:


> Stuck in Heathrow because someone stuffed up my visa to Senegal. Have to wait to see if they can pull a rabbit out of a hat at the Senegal end. Nothing to do here but wait with some bangers and mash on the way and a pint of fuller's London Pride. F me dead. It's a fine drop.
> 
> I can't seem to replicate the mouthfeel of these handpumps. I think I get the carbonation level is right but it feels more flat than creamy when I do that.
> 
> Has anyone had success? Obviously there are other factors apart from the carb level. Maybe I haven't got that right either. If anyone nails this on a regular basis, I'd love to see your recipe and carb level. I bottle condition, so that might be another relevant factor.


Here is my next project......
Reckon it will make some of the English beer I make taste closer...
http://www.byo.com/stories/projects-and-eq...d-a-beer-engine
I think serving it right , is half the battle....
Cheers
Ferg on the iPhone


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## probablynathan (17/6/12)

fergthebrewer said:


> Here is my next project......
> Reckon it will make some of the English beer I make taste closer...
> http://www.byo.com/stories/projects-and-eq...d-a-beer-engine
> I think serving it right , is half the battle....
> ...



Might have to make one of those myself. Anyone made one? how does it go?


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## goldstar (17/6/12)

There's this later article also that's worth a read, using a slightly different pump.

http://www.byo.com/stories/projects-and-eq...engine-projects


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## Bribie G (17/6/12)

Is it served with a head or not? Last time I had real ale in London was over 25 years ago, and in those days Londoners drank their ale dead flat on the surface, although a nice sparkle on the tongue. If they have joined the rest of the country and gone to creamy-head serve then a handpump plus a sparkler would be your best bet. The sparkler forces air into the beer to give almost a Guinness-like "churn" which settles down to a creamy head and lightly carbed beer.

Another way of getting _almost _the same effect would be to go to Nitro Mix - no doubt whilst hanging around there you would be able to find some nitro "smooth pour" brand that you could try - Tetleys or John Smith Smooth maybe?

Edit: those little pumps resemble "stirrup pumps" that you can still - rarely - see in UK pubs - I saw them in Cornwall, they put the dip tube of the pump through the spile hole of a cask on a rack behind the bar, and pump the beer out that way.


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## goldstar (17/6/12)

Nothing has changed Bribie, the loon's daaan sarf would get their pitchforks out if you happened to mention fitting a sparkler. I still work with a lot of Southerners, those that homebrew don't even prime the bottles. They rather drink them flat. Sure there's some carbonation from residual sugaz, but not a lot. Still, better 'discussing' all things beer with the southern fairies rather than engage with that other funny breed at work. Them that came from the wrong side of the pennines and don't favour white roses. Sicko's!


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## mwd (17/6/12)

bcp said:


> Has anyone had success? Obviously there are other factors apart from the carb level. Maybe I haven't got that right either. If anyone nails this on a regular basis, I'd love to see your recipe and carb level. I bottle condition, so that might be another relevant factor.




Bottle conditioning is going to be the main problem getting that mouthfeel.

Can you get 'widgets' for bottles thinking about cans here Boddingtons and Guinness Draft.

Doubt you will ever get the feeling with bottled beer.


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## Innes (17/6/12)

probablynathan said:


> Might have to make one of those myself. Anyone made one? how does it go?


I have one of the pumps in the second article. You can get them on amazon fairly cheap.

It works well and in a side by side test with my beer engine, the only real differences was the beer engine could pump with more force if required and obviously the goose neck allows the glass to be filled from the bottom up. The major benefit of the small water pump over the beer engine is I have the water pump setup inside my fridge (modified shelf) whereas the beer engine needs to be mounted on a bench top and you have the problems with the beer going warm when not in use and keeping the lines cool. Having the pump mounted inside the fridge means that the beer and the pump are at the same temperature and you don't have to flush the pump at the end of each session.

I also use a cask aspirator so I don't have to drink the whole keg over a 2-3 day period.


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## bigfridge (17/6/12)

Bribie G said:


> Is it served with a head or not? Last time I had real ale in London was over 25 years ago, and in those days Londoners drank their ale dead flat on the surface, although a nice sparkle on the tongue. If they have joined the rest of the country and gone to creamy-head serve then a handpump plus a sparkler would be your best bet. The sparkler forces air into the beer to give almost a Guinness-like "churn" which settles down to a creamy head and lightly carbed beer.



We have a little article here that explains that the beer needs to be designed with the dispense method in mind.


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## mxd (17/6/12)

probablynathan said:


> Might have to make one of those myself. Anyone made one? how does it go?



I think you'll find Dan (thirstyboy) has made a similar type with a caravan hand pump, I tried one of the beers off it at AHBC in 2010 but I don't remember much of that night


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## Bribie G (17/6/12)

goldstar said:


> Nothing has changed Bribie, the loon's daaan sarf would get their pitchforks out if you happened to mention fitting a sparkler. I still work with a lot of Southerners, those that homebrew don't even prime the bottles. They rather drink them flat. Sure there's some carbonation from residual sugaz, but not a lot. Still, better 'discussing' all things beer with the southern fairies rather than engage with that other funny breed at work. Them that came from the wrong side of the pennines and don't favour white roses. Sicko's!



I might look at getting one myself to live inside my tall fridge, low carb it in the kegerator then transfer to the big fridge for serving. 

Goldstar, never been to Hull but spent a few happy holidays at Bridlington and Skeggy over the border. (Born in Pontefract). I really liked the old Hull beer although it was filtered and delivered to the pub in huge polypin things, quite advanced for the era and even so it was far better than those dreadful keg brews like Tankard and Tavern etc. :icon_vomit:


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## bcp (17/6/12)

It came with a head. I have no traditional connections with Britain (ok, apart from ALL my ancestry) so without shame I confess the head added to the creaminess of the whole experience.


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## bcp (17/6/12)

bigfridge said:


> We have a little article here that explains that the beer needs to be designed with the dispense method in mind.



Quite a helpful little tip. Taste is a complex thing.


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## Bribie G (17/6/12)

Sounds spot on. As I have posted in the past, when Real Ale became the trendy "cause" in the 1970s I was living in Cardiff, where the local SA Brain beers are hand pumped through a sparkler. Our local pub which was on the way home for office workers and professionals, as opposed to the blue collar set, put on a weekly cask of the flagship SA, behind the bar, and just served straight into the glass for those who wanted an alternative to the creamy version.

It was like a completely different beer in its "native" state - slight sparkle and definitely much more bitter to the taste.


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## super_simian (17/6/12)

Innes said:


> I also use a cask aspirator so I don't have to drink the whole keg over a 2-3 day period.



Please, elaborate...


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## CosmicBertie (18/6/12)

I read somewhere that the low carbonation of the cask ale is irrelevant as the act of drawing beer through the beer engine removes all the dissolved gas from it. The sparkler certainly adds some extra mouthfeel/body to the beer too. I'm thinking of doing one of the RecipeDBs Guinness clones and putting it through the engine.

When I make English ales I put them into a 20l plastic water carrier (BCF $10), and then I attach it to the beer engine with a piece of normal siphon tubing. The water carrier collapses as the beer is drawn out of it, keeping it from being exposed to air, in essence, like a polypin.

IMO the beer which is nitrogen pulled, the Smoothflow stuff, is disgusting. Theres a significant flavour difference to hand pulled John Smiths/Tetley's and their Smoothflow variant, with the latter taking on an over silky, sweet taste.


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## Nodrog (18/6/12)

Cosmic Bertie said:


> I read somewhere that the low carbonation of the cask ale is irrelevant as the act of drawing beer through the beer engine removes all the dissolved gas from it. The sparkler certainly adds some extra mouthfeel/body to the beer too. I'm thinking of doing one of the RecipeDBs Guinness clones and putting it through the engine.
> 
> When I make English ales I put them into a 20l plastic water carrier (BCF $10), and then I attach it to the beer engine with a piece of normal siphon tubing. The water carrier collapses as the beer is drawn out of it, keeping it from being exposed to air, in essence, like




That souns really interesting, cask ale with no oxidising problems, 

Do you,rack direct from primary,to the polyp in or via secondary? 

I guess there,s o priming sugar involved?


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## Bribie G (18/6/12)

Nodrog said:


> That souns really interesting, cask ale with no oxidising problems,
> 
> Do you,rack direct from primary,to the polyp in or via secondary?
> 
> I guess there,s o priming sugar involved?



Collapsible plastic container: Nodrog you are obviously familiar with the Polypin word, they are widely available in NZ and the UK but for some reason have not made it to these far deserted shores. The BCF ones sound excellent although a bit expensive per brew. I wonder if they are cleanable, which would make them reusable. I'd guess a good method might to be to lightly carb in a cornie in a kegerator, then run into the Polypin for serving and keep it at a low temperature for longer life.


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## eamonnfoley (18/6/12)

I just came home from Germany with a 10L keg with coupler fitting and a bavarian style bunghole. Also bought the "zapfhahn" tap and a wooden hammer. I'm more interested in german beer, but it could be used for pseudo-cask ale.


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## Kai (19/6/12)

super_simian said:


> Please, elaborate...



The cask aspirator is a little valve that allows the atmosphere in the cask / keg to be replaced with atmospheric pressure CO2 (from a gas bottle) as you draw beer out of said vessel. Hence keeping the beer fresher by minimising oxidation by keeping air out of the headspace of the aforementioned vessel.


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## Kai (19/6/12)

I should also add that from time to time I have allowed a batch of beer to condition slightly in secondary / the cube, pressurising it and rendering it delicious straight from the old plastic tap. There have been batches that have failed to make it to packaging. I consider this to be 'real ale'.


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## CosmicBertie (19/6/12)

Bribie G said:


> Collapsible plastic container: Nodrog you are obviously familiar with the Polypin word, they are widely available in NZ and the UK but for some reason have not made it to these far deserted shores. The BCF ones sound excellent although a bit expensive per brew. I wonder if they are cleanable, which would make them reusable. I'd guess a good method might to be to lightly carb in a cornie in a kegerator, then run into the Polypin for serving and keep it at a low temperature for longer life.



These are the ones I use:

Http://m.bcf.com.au/Product/Collapsible-Wa...20-Litre/114174

Sorry for the crap link, iPad and all that. $13 each, but they are cleanable, I've used nappysan on mine, and totally reusable. The tap unscrews and theres about a two inch hole to clean it out with. I reckon if you treat them right, they'll last a bit, but a bit of misuse and the plastic fatigues.

I keep these full in my fridge, at a low temp, around 2C, so I can crash chill in it too. I take it out and leave it to warm up for an hour or so before serving.


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## CosmicBertie (19/6/12)

Nodrog said:


> That souns really interesting, cask ale with no oxidising problems,
> 
> Do you,rack direct from primary,to the polyp in or via secondary?
> 
> I guess there,s o priming sugar involved?



I treat all my beers the same. Ferment in primary, transfer into secondary whilst adding gelatine, then crash chill for 7 days. 

The English ales go straight from secondary into the collapsed water carrier to reduce oxidisation. No priming sugar added. They're then left for anywhere between 30 secs to 2 weeks to mature. Obviously the longer the maturation time, the better the beer is.

I'm planning on making an English beer soon, I'll take some pictures if it helps.


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## Wolfy (19/6/12)

Some cheaper Polypin's on Ebay: 
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/300725889205?ss...984.m1423.l2649
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261043809445?ss...984.m1423.l2649
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/160822850240?ss...984.m1423.l2649

A number of home brewers on the UK-based JBK forums use them, to both condition (usually by filling them just before fermentation has finished) and serve the beer (via gravity), there are pictures/details on those forums. Interestingly they seem to be more popular than the water-pump (BYO article linked earlier) method of replicating real ale serving. I'm not sure it's because it is a better or easier method, or because the water-pump-taps are more readily available in the USA.


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## Nodrog (19/6/12)

Cosmic Bertie said:


> I treat all my beers the same. Ferment in primary, transfer into secondary whilst adding gelatine, then crash chill for 7 days.
> 
> The English ales go straight from secondary into the collapsed water carrier to reduce oxidisation. No priming sugar added. They're then left for anywhere between 30 secs to 2 weeks to mature. Obviously the longer the maturation time, the better the beer is.
> 
> I'm planning on making an English beer soon, I'll take some pictures if it helps.




That would be great, good to see.
I expected a small amount of priming sugar and venting any Co2 produced would be good to displace any oxygen in the container, but it seems its not necessary.

Do you use a pump like the BYO one linked on page 1?
Or just open the tap into the drinking vessel of choice? - simple is good!

i'm thinking I may try a plastic tube extension (like a bottling wand) to the tap, with a sparkler on the end, and use gravity, or even squashing the water container to pour initially, if its working well I'll source a hand pump.

I guess the carrier has to be kept very still to avoid disturbing sediment, although guess yours are clear after gelatine and 2ndary?


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## Nodrog (19/6/12)

Bribie G said:


> Collapsible plastic container: Nodrog you are obviously familiar with the Polypin word, they are widely available in NZ and the UK but for some reason have not made it to these far deserted shores. The BCF ones sound excellent although a bit expensive per brew. I wonder if they are cleanable, which would make them reusable. I'd guess a good method might to be to lightly carb in a cornie in a kegerator, then run into the Polypin for serving and keep it at a low temperature for longer life.




i've only ever seen them in camping stores / BCF etc, not seen any breweries selling them yet in NZ, although the more experienced ale heads / brewers would still refer to me as grasshopper.


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## CosmicBertie (19/6/12)

Nodrog said:


> That would be great, good to see.
> I expected a small amount of priming sugar and venting any Co2 produced would be good to displace any oxygen in the container, but it seems its not necessary.
> 
> Do you use a pump like the BYO one linked on page 1?
> ...



I've found that making a 23l batch, and trying to squeeze it into a 20l container expels most of the air in it  From experience, they'll hold about 22l 

I keep my beer bags in the fridge, in the garage, the beer is pretty much clear (although being dark beers you tend not to notice) and then lug it into the house, and connect it to my beer engine. Its an original English pub beer engine  The beer engine is connected to the outlet tap of the container via some 10mm OD tubing. 

I dont think gravity would create the head that you're wanting, and squashing the container to force the beer through sparkler may cause the container to burst. When I'm pulling pints it does take a fair bit of force.

Unforunately, you've caught me between brews, what with a prolapsed disc and family commitments, i'm all out of English ale. I'll put one down this week though, and if I remember I'll take some photos, and video the whole 'pint pulling' experience


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## Murcluf (19/6/12)

What gets me is how simple and blood obvious use of those caravan pump taps, I've been in the throws of wanting a beer engine for years but could never get over the cost of importing one. But now the obvious has been point out, I now know what my next project is..... Also thought to get either an aspirater (apologies for bad spelling) or leaving the valve open on the keg lid when hand pumping and once finished if there is any left just replace the headspace with CO2.


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## Bribie G (19/6/12)

Nodrog said:


> i've only ever seen them in camping stores / BCF etc, not seen any breweries selling them yet in NZ, although the more experienced ale heads / brewers would still refer to me as grasshopper.



A couple of pubs in Welly were using them when I was there, the Malthouse was serving a porter on handpump and you could clearly see the PP under the bar, and also the Hashigo Zake on Taranaki St had two on pump. Also Twisted Hop at Beervana were doing this with their Goldings Bitter. The breweries don't sell to the public AFAIK, they have obviously twigged to it as a viable method of delivering real ales in manageable quantities to pubs that don't have the traditional English Cellar to hold the casks, I would guess.

**************************

Edit: using cornies another possible option would be to run off say three or four pints directly into another concealed food grade container under the bar (beer line, inline tap, plus any lidded container - Woolies decor fake tupperware thingo etc) and put the dip tube of the caravan pump into the beer and pump away, sir  . This would also give the beer time to "steam off" excess gas.


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## dmac80 (19/6/12)

A bit off topic, but how good was Hashigo Zake Bribie? Wish that was my local, that place is awesome.

Back on topic, i think i'm off to pull the redundant water pump out of the caravan for a cheap hand pump. Probably use a corny with another reg to supply around atmospheric pressure to the keg and a one way valve on the gas line in. When the pump draws beer out, it should create a slight vacuum and draw co2 in to the keg headspace. 

Not quite 'real ale' but as close as i'll get i think.


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## gap (19/6/12)

Wylam Brewery in North East UK
http://wylambrewery.co.uk/pdf/flierweb.pdf

they sell beer in a box (10L or 20L) to attach to a handpump or with a tap attached
Nice thought

regards

Graeme


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## super_simian (19/6/12)

Ok, are cask aspirators kludge-able, or will I need to buy one? I'm thinking of finishing off my stalled sprayer party keg and adding a caravan handpump; but the 'cask' will be rigid and I won't drink it all in 2 days. Could a BBQ reg and sodastream bottle work?


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## Nodrog (19/6/12)

Bribie G said:


> A couple of pubs in Welly were using them when I was there, the Malthouse was serving a porter on handpump and you could clearly see the PP under the bar, and also the Hashigo Zake on Taranaki St had two on pump. Also Twisted Hop at Beervana were doing this with their Goldings Bitter. The breweries don't sell to the public AFAIK, they have obviously twigged to it as a viable method of delivering real ales in manageable quantities to pubs that don't have the traditional English Cellar to hold the casks, I would guess.



All hail Hashingo Zake !!  what a place.

Not quite so spoilt for choice in Akld but there's a couple of places with hand pumps where I'll ask. Pretty sure they get through enough volume to be able to do casks properly though.

What is the world coming to, first BIAB then "real" ale in a polythene sack delivered with a caravan pump!! :lol: 
Bring it on I say.


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## Bribie G (19/6/12)

Re a previous post of mine, in the 1970s the beers from the Hull Brewery in Yorkshire were delivered to the pubs in flogging great polypins, about firkin sized. Firkin big anyway. 
Then they were put in a sealed airtight SS tank. At the bar was a handpump, but what it did was to send a pulse of compressed air down the line back to the sealed container a bit like a tyre pump. 

This would displace an equal amount of beer back to the spigot. Bloody ingenious, no wonder we won the Falklands War I tells yer. 

CAMRA hated the system with a passion, yet at the same time endorsed the Scottish Water Fonts that were another similar system working on water pressure where pulling a lever released mains water under pressure somehow in the system, to send a pint to the bar. NFI how they worked but they were developed in Victorian times as part of a "health and hygeine in serving" idea. I had a few pints of Macleays 80/- back in the 70s and a real as you can get. I might email Shut Up about Barclay Perkins and see if he has any further info.


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## Lecterfan (19/6/12)

I wasn't going to bother commenting, but I have had a lot of hand pump ales as I am fortunate enough to know a few guys who have them around these parts. While there is no true substitute, I bottle carbonate (and in the 9L kegs I have) with around 1.5gms raw sugar per litre for these types of beers. Pour the beer with a splash into the glass, baby syringe, give it two or three good squirts, creamy head and the mouthfeel is somewhere in the vicinity (like a shetland pony is closer to a horse than a mastiff, regardless of superficial similarities).

I find that the beers out of the kegs with a bronco tap poured from a height have a closer approximation even without the squirting procedure. But please don't squirt beers that have been carbonated beyond approx 1 volume. It saves a lot of cleaning up.

Not perfect, not 'the' answer, but a cheap and easy option, especially for those who only bottle.

This is from the AHB google search.

:icon_cheers:


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## Wolfy (19/6/12)

My sister has asked me to make beer for her wedding, her fiance is from England, and the first choices of the beer he'd like me to emulate were Banks Mild and/or Bitter.
I'm hopeful that a 40L esky, 20L polypin and the caravan hand-pump - just purchased ($22 Ebay or $26-30 in-store) will solve the logistics of getting the beer to Tasmania as well as serving it in a resonable way.

I think he's from Birmingham, so should I look to include a sparkler or not?


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## black_labb (19/6/12)

For a rough estimate of cask ale through a sparkler bottle condition with low carbonation and use a measurement syringe. Draw the beer into the syringeand push it back down to the base of the glass. I read someone here refering to it as a pocket sparkler.


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## freek (26/7/12)

Has anyone tried fitting a sparkler to a tap on a standard force carbonated set up? I am wondering if this is an easy way to achieve the result.
I see small plastic sparkler units for sale on Ebay UK. They do not say what they are intended to be used with. I assume it is for handpumps.
example here


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## Wolfy (26/7/12)

freek said:


> I see small plastic sparkler units for sale on Ebay UK. They do not say what they are intended to be used with. I assume it is for handpumps.
> example here


Yes they are for hand pumps, and are attached via a fine thread (the vendor did not know what size the thread is) - I asked recently.


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## mwd (26/7/12)

freek said:


> Has anyone tried fitting a sparkler to a tap on a standard force carbonated set up? I am wondering if this is an easy way to achieve the result.
> I see small plastic sparkler units for sale on Ebay UK. They do not say what they are intended to be used with. I assume it is for handpumps.
> example here



I was thinking Whoh that is expensive even though there is six they are only plastic.
I reckon they are designed for a beer engine.


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## MHB (26/7/12)

Wolfy said:


> Yes they are for hand pumps, and are attached via a fine thread (the vendor did not know what size the thread is) - I asked recently.



The thread is 1/4 BSG IIRC
I believe I even have tap and die set left over from plumbing an historic house for gas lighting, but British Standard Gas is not a thread form you will run into every day.
Those were the days screwed and soldered copper pipe with a wall thickness nearly equal to the bore.
Mark


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## dr K (26/7/12)

I have a roasty porter on at the moment, from both a pressurised (CO2) Keg and a beer engine with sparkler.
The beer engine is straight from the fermentor to a small corny which had a bit of CO2 as a blanket, I vent after a few pulls, but reckon on a heavier CO2 "skin" just protecting the beer, anyway I am talking less than 7 days.
The beer engine produces a far superior , to the drinker, beer.

K


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## Kai (27/7/12)

Dr K,

That 'skin' would be gone after an hour or two. After that it's just a race between oxidation and deliciousness.

A race that you appear to be winning, which is good. I am just picking. 

I'm also in love with cask aspirators. They're a wonderful piece of engineering. Also plead guilty of sucking on one to check the mechanism...


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## Tricky Dicky (22/8/18)

goldstar said:


> Nothing has changed Bribie, the loon's daaan sarf would get their pitchforks out if you happened to mention fitting a sparkler. I still work with a lot of Southerners, those that homebrew don't even prime the bottles. They rather drink them flat. Sure there's some carbonation from residual sugaz, but not a lot. Still, better 'discussing' all things beer with the southern fairies rather than engage with that other funny breed at work. Them that came from the wrong side of the pennines and don't favour white roses. Sicko's!


Where's tha from lad?


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## wide eyed and legless (22/8/18)

Tricky Dicky said:


> Where's tha from lad?


The right side of the Pennines as Bribie would have said. GRHS.


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## altone (22/8/18)

Tricky Dicky said:


> Where's tha from lad?



Obviously the wrong side of the hills. Roses are red Yorkshire loses at cricket again.

Well my avatar shows my alliance pretty well


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## Tricky Dicky (22/8/18)

altone said:


> Obviously the wrong side of the hills. Roses are red Yorkshire loses at cricket again.
> 
> Well my avatar shows my alliance pretty well


I'm back in Gods Own at the moment (not far from Pontefract) visiting family watching LU and drinking local beers (definitely not in that order!) just bought a Boddington and Ossett Brewery pint glass as it happens. Use enjoy a good pint of Boddy's in a pub near Lymm.


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## Tricky Dicky (22/8/18)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The right side of the Pennines as Bribie would have said. GRHS.


Whereabouts?


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## Tricky Dicky (22/8/18)

dr K said:


> I have a roasty porter on at the moment, from both a pressurised (CO2) Keg and a beer engine with sparkler.
> The beer engine is straight from the fermentor to a small corny which had a bit of CO2 as a blanket, I vent after a few pulls, but reckon on a heavier CO2 "skin" just protecting the beer, anyway I am talking less than 7 days.
> The beer engine produces a far superior , to the drinker, beer.
> 
> K


I'm a bit confused with your set up, do you hand pull directly from the corny?


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## koshari (24/8/18)

Wow. What a "bump"


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