# Holgate Hop Tart



## indica86 (26/5/16)

> Ordinarily, we use just four ingredients – water, malt, hops and yeast – to create delicious beers. This time around we decided to add another layer of complexity by using some Lactobacillus, bacteria from the same friendly family that turn milk into yoghurt and have been used as components in complex Belgian sour beers for centuries. These helpful critters produce lactic acid, which, in judicious amounts, can create beers with a refreshing sourness.
> There is more than one way to get this sourness into beer and we chose to naturally sour our wort in the kettle via an extended rest with a population of the bacteria before the boil, then finishing the fermentation with house yeast in the normal way.
> Traditional European sour beers are usually low in bitterness with little or no hop character. We decided to take a New World approach and marry citrusy Australian hops to the lemony lactic tang.
> *Tasting Notes:*
> ...


I had a pint of this on tap recently and it was wonderful. Really bright and refreshing.
Any pointers on how to go about this?


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## altone (26/5/16)

Sounds like they dump some Yakult in for a while before the boil - full of  "Lactobacillus casei Shirota strain"

They might actually use the lac. bulgaricus [spelling might be wrong] which is commonly used to make yoghurt.
my local health food store sells it as live yoghurt starter

No idea how long you'd need to rest it before the boil or how much to use, but why not give it a go.

Start small and short and see what happens


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## Black n Tan (26/5/16)

Sounds like a 'sour mash' Berliner Weisse of sorts. Perform a normal mash and then pitch either a commercial lacto culture (Lacto Brevis works better IMO) or a handful of grain, cover with glad wrap to stop oxygen getting in and allow to sour for a few hours to days (depending on how sour you want it). Then boil as per normal with new world hop additions and pitch yeast.


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## goatus (26/5/16)

Black n Tan said:


> cover with glad wrap to stop oxygen getting in and allow to sour for a few hours to days (depending on how sour you want it).


Oxygen bad when souring? Is it worth pumping co2 in there before sealing then? Might have to try this as an experimental brew.


Edit: This link has some more info - looks like they did use grain to introduce the lacto:



> they used Lactobacillus, bacteria from the same friendly family that turns milk into yoghurt, to naturally sour the wort before the boil by adding a little malt along with its indigenous population of microorganisms. They then decided to take a New World approach and marry citrusy hops to the lemony lactic tang.


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## Black n Tan (26/5/16)

goatus said:


> Oxygen bad when souring? Is it worth pumping co2 in there before sealing then? Might have to try this as an experimental brew.
> 
> 
> Edit: This link has some more info - looks like they did use grain to introduce the lacto:


Although lacto is meant to be aerotolerant my experience has been it has been beneficial for souring to keep oxygen out. Additionally if using grain to introduce lacto, oxygen can encourage the growth of acetobacter and give a vinegar flavour which is not desirable in the BW. You can purge with CO2 (I do when souring in a fermenter), but glad wrap may be more effective when souring in the mash tun.


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## goatus (26/5/16)

That makes sense. Cheers


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## Coodgee (26/5/16)

Can you just add lactic acid?


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## Black n Tan (26/5/16)

Yep but it will more one dimensional and not have the complexity.


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## Coodgee (26/5/16)

Can you just add lactic acid?


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## indica86 (26/5/16)

Black n Tan said:


> Sounds like a 'sour mash' Berliner Weisse of sorts. Perform a normal mash and then pitch either a commercial lacto culture (Lacto Brevis works better IMO) or a handful of grain, cover with glad wrap to stop oxygen getting in and allow to sour for a few hours to days (depending on how sour you want it). Then boil as per normal with new world hop additions and pitch yeast.


Hmm, Allow to cool then add the grains I assume? I have some yoghurt cultures in my freezer would they work?

How long I guess is the other question...


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## Black n Tan (26/5/16)

Yes pitch the grain or culture typically in low to mid 30s C. How long is the question, depends on how sour you want it and how much lacto you add. A bit tart a few hours to a few days for good sourness. I haven't tried the Hop Tart but suspect it is mildly tart without being overly sour. Taste along the way and boil once it gets to you liking sour wise. I am sure you can use your yogurt culture, although you may get better results with a commercial culture of lacto or even the native bugs on barley grain (although with grain there is always a risk of something undesirable flavour wise grabbing hold). That said I recently used Keffir grains to make a BW and it has lovely complexity.


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## indica86 (26/5/16)

Hop Tart did not taste sour at all but was nicely tart.


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## indica86 (26/5/16)

How about a tablespoon of my sourdough culture - over 5 years old and very stable - thrown in. Repeatable and dependable.


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## Mardoo (26/5/16)

I would be very interested to hear the results of that!


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## Black n Tan (26/5/16)

If you are just going for some tartness then I think most sources of lacto will work. However if you are going for sour (pH 3.0-3.3) as in a in a true BW, then a barley derived lacto is probably a better way to go. My kefir BW got to pH 3.5, not quite as low as I would have liked, but it taste pretty good.


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## indica86 (26/5/16)

Do I need some sort of pH meter then?

I'll go for tart rather than sour...


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## Black n Tan (26/5/16)

No you don't require a pH meter to brew a BW: I was just trying to point out that a yoghurt culture might not give you the sourness of a traditional BW, but it probably will give you the tartness you are chasing. Be guided by your taste buds, in the end that is the most important measure of a beer.


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## pvan340 (26/5/16)

If you haven't already had a read of this site:

http://sourbeerblog.com/category/brewing-topics/fermentation/fast-souring-brewing-topics/

Heaps of great info on sour beer.


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## indica86 (27/5/16)

Thanks all for the info and the above link.


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## goatus (27/5/16)

This could make for a nice lazy brew day.

Mash the night before, transfer to kettle, add some grain for lacto, boil in the morning.

Do i trust my crummy chinese temp controller to hold temp though? heh.


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## indica86 (31/5/16)

I have been reading and the suggestion is to lower the pH to 4.5prior to adding the culture. Is this needed?


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## Black n Tan (31/5/16)

The idea is that lowering the pH to 4.5-4.8 will stop the lacto breaking down the proteins responsible for head retention. I tried this on a recent batch but I waiting for it to carb up so don't yet know the result.


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## indica86 (6/6/16)

Having a go at this today. I will report back.


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## indica86 (7/6/16)

Well tart this morning. Boiled, hopped and cubed.
Will ferment shortly.


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## Brownsworthy (7/6/16)

Just having a Hop Tart now and it's lovely, not too tart with a little hop kick and kind of feels like soft drink on the mouth would be brilliant on a summer afternoon. 

Another sour I love is Dennis Beer Co. Fat Freddy Got Finger Limed which is a Berliner Weisse sour with Australian native Finger Limes at 3.4% it's got heaps of citrus/lime aroma and flavour with a sour tang it's very easy to drink.


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## goatus (8/6/16)

indica86 said:


> Well tart this morning. Boiled, hopped and cubed.
> Will ferment shortly.


Did you end up lowering the PH prior?


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## indica86 (8/6/16)

Nope. Nothing to do it with nor measure it. Baby steps.


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## indica86 (13/6/16)

Black n Tan thanks for the help.
Taste from the hydro tube is VERY promising.


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## seehuusen (14/6/16)

Curious what your process ended up being? Sounds like a delicious drop


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## indica86 (14/6/16)

Mash then drain bag. Wait until the temp was 40°c. Threw in 1/4 of a teaspoon of a yoghurt culture.
Checked the temp a few hours later and it seems too warm, threw in another 1/4. Covered with gladwrap and went to bed.
Checked it out in the morning and there was a slight tang. 




> Recipe: Kettle Sour I
> Brewer: Grumpy
> Style: Saison
> TYPE: All Grain
> ...


In the FV and the yeast took of really fast. It was about 4 months old too.
Taste of the hydro sample was well bright and lemony, just like I recall the Hop Tart.


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## seehuusen (14/6/16)

Thanks very much, will have to give this a whirl


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## indica86 (26/6/16)

Early taste today and it is a cracker.

Tart.


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## seehuusen (30/8/16)

I assume you've drunk it all haha, any tips for the new players? Anything you'd change? Thoughts on flavours?


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## skb (30/8/16)

Wow just read this thread must try this. ... I love the Holgate Hop Tart


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## indica86 (31/8/16)

It was great as is. Will have to make it again for sure.
Perhaps I was lucky?


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## bevan (31/8/16)

Quick question indica86 when you added the yogurt culture at 40 deg did you maintain that temp overnight or did you let it drop slowly?
Cheers
Bevan


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## indica86 (31/8/16)

I just let it drop.


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## bevan (31/8/16)

Cool, going to have to try this one I think!


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