# Refractometer



## Doc

I recently purchased a Refractometer for measuring the SG of the runoff when sparging. This is much easier as you only need a drop of liquid rather than cooling a small jar to then be able to measure SG with a hydrometer.
I have put together a quick sheet to convert Degrees Brix (what the refractometer takes readings in) to SG.
I've uploaded it here for anyone else who has a refractometer and is interested.

Cheers,
Doc 

View attachment Brix2SG.pdf


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## Doc

I found that I needed more granularity in the conversion table.
So here is version 2 that gives just that.

Enjoy,
Doc

PS: Looks good if you laminate it. Then it means you can get water and wort all over it and not ruin it while brewing. Luckily we have a laminator at work  

View attachment Brix2SGv2.pdf


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## dane

Looks great Doc, just printed it out  

I should be bale to get those other conversion/php script up over the weekend


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## jayse

3 weeks max and i'll have my refractometer.
can't wait. As well as measuring the run off it will be great for measring the start boil gravity and end boil gravity, even half way though pretty much at any stage. 
so i can really fine tune the final wort size and gravity in the kettle.
For the run off at the moment i just measure at sparge temp and add 1.010 for temp difference. then just cool a enough so it want melt the plastic tube to measure boiling wort which ends up being 70c after swishing in a glass so i just add the 1.010 again.
so you can do with out a refractometer but for under $100 it makes for a great brewing toy.
it seems unless you use either beersmith or promash. you really can't use a refractometer for fg. simply because the maths is to much for the average human brain. Mainly due to the difference in alcohol being present which causes the refraction of light not to be a correct measure of the level of sugar.

Doc do those tables take into account any wort calibration?
Anyway good work, i'll have to adjust mine to read 'Skunk Fart brewery'. with thanx to 'dr's orders'


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## Doc

The table is a straight conversion using the formula at the bottom of the chart.

I use it every time I brew to check my 1st, last and full wort gravities.

My post boil gravity I do with a hydrometer as it is also what I use at the end of fermentation. Consistency and non-reliability in the maths for the formulas of using a refractometer with wort with alcohol content is why I still use a hydrometer for those calcs.

But using the refractometer for measuring runoff is fantastic.

Beers,
Doc


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## therook

good stuff Doc...

Your Bloods woth Keging

Rook


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## Doc

I've been getting a few queries about my refractometer, so I have resurrected this thread.

I bought mine from St Pats in the US for about US$50.

Mine has the scale 0-32 brix which is what I'd recommend, although I haven't gone above the mid-twenties. Leaves room for those big barley wines  

Readings are done in degrees Brix which is the same as degrees Plato.
I made a conversion table that I printed and laminated that I use to convert to SG.
You can find it in an earlier post in this thread.

I've attached a picture of mine.

It can replace your hydrometer, however I only use it when brewing to measure the run-off when sparging, as measuring the SG of fermented wort requires additional calculations to convert to SG as the alcohol in the sample changes things.

Beers,
Doc


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## Doc

I also tried to take a picture through the view-finder.
You can just make out the scale but not really the numbers (0-32).

When you put a drop of wort on the prism and look through the view finder you take a reading off the scale where the white section meets the blue section (not shown, it is all blue as I had no wort on the lens).

Beers,
Doc


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## wedge

doc, do you take the reading from the strat of the blue, or where the blue becomes distinct,

I thought the refract. would have been more accurate!


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## Doc

When you have wort on the lens you get a distinct clear line where the blue meets white (in the pic I posted there was no wort on the lens, hence it is all blue).
You then read the number off the scale and covert to SG using the table I posted a while back.
Simple as.

Beers,
Doc


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## wedge

yep, i got my refractomter, last saturday. My line is not sharp?


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## Doc

Oh.
Turn the eye-piece to focus it like you would one lens on your binoculars.

Beers,
Doc


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## wedge

i could be an idiot, (and have been one once or twice before), but this only sharpens the writing, not the 'blueness'.

Thanks for the help!


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## Doc

The only other thing to look for then is make sure that you have the lens cover down flat. If is not down flat (on top of the wort) then I've had mine hazy.

Beers,
Doc


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## wedge

cheers


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## Linz

I ordered mine today and should have it in a week or so.Im in the process of downloading Doc's chart and cant wait to brew again when the unit gets here.Im getting the refractometer from the ebay guy too.

Doc..Is there any preboil gravities or beer styles that exceed SG 1.1435? If there is; is it possible to extend the chart to 40% brix?

Cheers


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## wedge

i think your dreamin Linz... pre boil 1.1435 thats a very big beer!

What are you intending to make?


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## MAH

Doc

Just wondering if you're still using the same data that you posted back in Feb 2003. I've been playing around with the calculations for refractometers and there appears to be considerable difference in the results of Brix to SG conversion depending on the equation you use. The simple equation is just to multiply the Brix by 4, so 10Brix would be a SG of 1.040. Using your calculations it would be 1.041. Using an alternative formula reported in BYO magazine in November 2003, you would get a SG of 1.039. The formula that you used for the table is the same one used by the guy who makes PrimeTabs, which are a bit like Coopers Carbonation drops. The supposed Guru on the matter is a guy called Louis Bonham who came up with the formulas for ProMash. 

The other significant difference is that ProMash uses a wort calibration factor set at the default value of 1.04. This is because Brix refractometers are meant to measure the percentage of sugar in a pure sucrose solution, but wort is not simply sugar and water, so you need to make a small correction for the non-sugar components. Using the PrimeTabs equation plus the calibration factor would equate to a Brix reading of 10 to 1.039 and using the the formula from the Nov 2003 BYO magazine would give a SG of 1.037.

So depending on the formula you use and if you calibrate for wort you could interpret a Brix reading of 10 as high as 1.041 or low as 1.037. I'm still not clear on what the best equation to use is. I suppose using ProMash takes away the need to try and work this out for yourself. If anyone has ProMash what does it measure 10 Brix as in SG?

Cheers
MAH


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## Guest Lurker

Umm.. I have promash, just dont know how to use it.

For the refractometer wort gravity window, if you enter 10 Brix, and leave the correction factor as 1.04, it gives an sg of 1.03844 or 9.615 plato if that was the question.


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## Doc

MAH,

Yep still using the same table I posted here a year ago.
I only use it (refractometer) on brew day when measuring run-off etc.

When the wort hits the fermenter I use the hydrometer to take my OG and then at the end of the brew for my FG. I base my alcohol calcs on these numbers.

I've never got around to using the other formulas that are out there for corrections to calc alcohol content with a refractometer. Hydrometer is simple enough to use it those situations.

I calculate my recipes on 70% eff but get over 80%. Therefore I usually end up finishing my sparge around 1.020. So even with the variation of the different formulas I think I'm still safe on not getting any astringent flavours.

It is an area if I had the time and equipment it would be good to do some research into. But I'd rather be brewing  

Beers,
Doc


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## sosman

Wont help you with brix to SG but if you want to compensate hydrometer readings for temperature then I have an online form here which lets you print out a table for whatever temperature your hydrometer is calibrated for.

I also have a units converter if you ever wanted to know how many litres in a firkin.


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## Daznz

10 Brix in promash is 1.040


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## Ross

Daznz said:


> 10 Brix in promash is 1.040



Daznz - Any reason for reviving this 2 year old thread :huh: ??

Cheers Ross


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## Darren

MAH said:


> Doc
> 
> Just wondering if you're still using the same data that you posted back in Feb 2003. I've been playing around with the calculations for refractometers and there appears to be considerable difference in the results of Brix to SG conversion depending on the equation you use. The simple equation is just to multiply the Brix by 4, so 10Brix would be a SG of 1.040. Using your calculations it would be 1.041. Using an alternative formula reported in BYO magazine in November 2003, you would get a SG of 1.039. The formula that you used for the table is the same one used by the guy who makes PrimeTabs, which are a bit like Coopers Carbonation drops. The supposed Guru on the matter is a guy called Louis Bonham who came up with the formulas for ProMash.
> 
> The other significant difference is that ProMash uses a wort calibration factor set at the default value of 1.04. This is because Brix refractometers are meant to measure the percentage of sugar in a pure sucrose solution, but wort is not simply sugar and water, so you need to make a small correction for the non-sugar components. Using the PrimeTabs equation plus the calibration factor would equate to a Brix reading of 10 to 1.039 and using the the formula from the Nov 2003 BYO magazine would give a SG of 1.037.
> 
> So depending on the formula you use and if you calibrate for wort you could interpret a Brix reading of 10 as high as 1.041 or low as 1.037. I'm still not clear on what the best equation to use is. I suppose using ProMash takes away the need to try and work this out for yourself. If anyone has ProMash what does it measure 10 Brix as in SG?
> 
> Cheers
> MAH




MAH,
Now you can't tell me you don't have time to chill your wort. 
I understand now. You have been quibbling with 4 SG points.

Those measured differences would fall outside the accuracy of homebrew measuring device.

cheers

Darren


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## cj in j

For anyone who's interested, here are a set of on-line calculators that make converting a refractometer Brix reading to specific gravity, and it even works for post-fermentation readings.
Thomas's Refractometer Calculators

I should mention -- you can save the page to your hard disk and access it any time, even without an Internet connection. You can also delete the Google ads on top in a web page editor.

Oh, I just noticed that I can add an attachment to this post, so here it is: View attachment __Refractometer_Calculations.html


Quick note about the attachment -- when I just did a test download, it opened in MS Word, which is definitely not what you want. Open the file in an Internet browser and it should work fine (although I can only test it in Netscape).


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## sinkas

Does the accuracy of a refrac reading depend on liquid film thickness?
I recently tried to make a big (1.150) barleywine, and was taking reading through the last alf of the boil, they seemd to be all ove rthe bloody place, 19 to 26 and inbetween. Near the end it seems to stabilizes somwhat between 23 and 26, I was alittle miffed when it came out at only 23 when cooled....
My refrac is a Mashmaster unit


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## Screwtop

Temp!

Take a small sample using the dropper. Swirl around in the bowl of the dropper and leave it for 5 min or so, then take your reading, from experience.


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## oldbugman

I've noticed readigs to to vary quite a bit during the boil after hops have been added.. could it be the hop oils?


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## sinkas

The unit says it temp compensating.


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## mika

So does mine, but once the wort cools down the readings a lot different. I take the dropper and sit it for ~5mins before taking a reading, but then I'm not fly sparging and got no need for an instantaneous reading.


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## Ross

sinkas said:


> The unit says it temp compensating.



It is, but only within a certain range & is affected by how much you drip/pour over the lense. I find if you draw a small sample it cools very quickly. I drop a few drips from the pipette onto a metal teaspoon which in effect drops the temp instantly - This can then be dropped on the lense for a consistant result. I always take 2 readings though, just to be sure.

cheers Ross


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## mickoz

I found a very nice spreadsheet that does all the math necessary to use your refractometer all the way from mash to bottling provided you provide an OG.

http://morebeer.com/public/beer/refractbeer.xls

There's a tutorial here as well http://morebeer.com/learn_vids/vids_refract

Mick


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## Hogan

mickoz said:


> I found a very nice spreadsheet that does all the math necessary to use your refractometer all the way from mash to bottling provided you provide an OG.
> 
> http://morebeer.com/public/beer/refractbeer.xls
> 
> There's a tutorial here as well http://morebeer.com/learn_vids/vids_refract
> 
> Mick




I'm finding the issue of Brix = Gravity readings very confusing as of late. I have always relied on Docs chart but these latter charts, refrac tools and BrewSmith calculations can differ quite considerably. Who is right? Which chart, tool should I follow??

Cheers, Hoges.


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## BrissyBrew

Hogan said:


> I'm finding the issue of Brix = Gravity readings very confusing as of late. I have always relied on Docs chart but these latter charts, refrac tools and BrewSmith calculations can differ quite considerably. Who is right? Which chart, tool should I follow??
> 
> Cheers, Hoges.


I looked at bringing out refractometer with brix and SG for wort (pre-fermentation) but I have consulted a few text books, brewing formula, a few pieces of brewing software, a few online calculators, formula supplied in Magazines (brewing industry, and also others eg juice) at the end of the day I found no consensus on the formula to be used for pre-fermentation. The big issue is some formula are based on a clear liquid (think more japanise rice beer) and others are tweeked to turned out a lager. Technically you are suppose to calibrate the refractomer to the wort (if you are doing the same brew over and over again such as in a commerical brewery). 

I am interested in people opinions regarding acceptance of an approximate SG (prefermentation scale) probably best for getting prewort gravity/run off from the sparge readings.


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## SpillsMostOfIt

BrissyBrew said:


> I am interested in people opinions regarding acceptance of an approximate SG (prefermentation scale) probably best for getting prewort gravity/run off from the sparge readings.



It's a real bastard, IMO. I think in SG as does the world (of homebrewers) apparently. But I love my refractometer.

My ideal would be a slide rule type device that I could zwoosh-zip to apply whatever formula I wanted then get my SG. A wheel, perhaps?

Nowadays, I use a table I made or switch back and forth in Beersmith... Very elegant.


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## Ross

I just use my refractomer for rough brew day calculations, where I want to check my preboil gravity etc. Used in this way, a simple 4 x brix calculation is more than adequate & makes the unit worth it's weight in gold. When I require more accurate data, & during fermentation I use my hydrometer.

cheers Ross


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## Cortez The Killer

It's interesting to look at this analysis here

http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/xls/BrixPlatoSG.xls

And a spreadsheet I setup here 

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=237324

I'm not 100% on which formula is most accurate

Though I reckon that it'd be worth tabulating a range of user comparisons between refractometers and hydrometers at a range of gravities - to determine which formula gives the most accurate real world results

Perhaps a AHB feature to record this or a wiki on topic would be good

Cheers


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## PJO

Ross said:


> I just use my refractomer for rough brew day calculations, where I want to check my preboil gravity etc. Used in this way, a simple 4 x brix calculation is more than adequate & makes the unit worth it's weight in gold. When I require more accurate data, & during fermentation I use my hydrometer.
> 
> cheers Ross



I used to use mine the same way (until I dropped it, must get another, looks like your up for another order soon Ross  ).

I did'nt think that it was possible to get an accurate reading with a hot solution regardless of ATC.
The problem I can see is in cooling down a small drop, while it may only take a minute, you are bound to lose some water through evaporation, so I've never used it as an accurate reading just a guide.

Though I'm not sure how big the loss is through evaporation or whether it is even big enough to worry about.
How do people cool down the solution before putting on the refractometer?
Any chemical engineers out there to do the calculations? I guess it would strongly depend on humidity.

Cheers,
Petr


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## Sammus

They annoy me. I have to take about 6 readings, and then I take the two that agree (if I'm lucky there will be two) from that lot as my reading... which is normally way off what my hydrometer says anyway. On top of that the little steel pin holding the lens cover was loose and i finally lost mine last night.. looks like ill have to dodge it up with a nail or piece of wire or something.


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## Kai

Ross said:


> I just use my refractomer for rough brew day calculations, where I want to check my preboil gravity etc. Used in this way, a simple 4 x brix calculation is more than adequate & makes the unit worth it's weight in gold. When I require more accurate data, & during fermentation I use my hydrometer.
> 
> cheers Ross




Exactly what I do.


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## AndrewQLD

PJO said:


> Though I'm not sure how big the loss is through evaporation or whether it is even big enough to worry about.
> How do people cool down the solution before putting on the refractometer?
> Any chemical engineers out there to do the calculations? I guess it would strongly depend on humidity.
> 
> Cheers,
> Petr



I use a small syringe, grab a sample pre-boil and test at my leisure, then grab another sample post boil and test when cooled, usually only takes a few minutes to cool down and I have never seen a loss due to evaporation so the reading is accurate. Micro syringes are the best, very small volume and cool quickly.



> Sammus Posted Today, 01:50 PM
> They annoy me. I have to take about 6 readings, and then I take the two that agree (if I'm lucky there will be two) from that lot as my reading... which is normally way off what my hydrometer says anyway. On top of that the little steel pin holding the lens cover was loose and i finally lost mine last night.. looks like ill have to dodge it up with a nail or piece of wire or something.



I can take a reading 1/2 a dozen times from the syringe and it is the same every time, perhaps you are getting varying readings from evaporation or heat.

I now only use my Hydro for post fermentation readings.


Cheers
Andrew


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## PJO

AndrewQLD said:


> I use a small syringe, grab a sample pre-boil and test at my leisure, then grab another sample post boil and test when cooled, usually only takes a few minutes to cool down and I have never seen a loss due to evaporation so the reading is accurate. Micro syringes are the best, very small volume and cool quickly.
> 
> I now only use my Hydro for post fermentation readings.
> Cheers
> Andrew



That sounds like a good way to deal with it, didn't think about syringes. 
Do you use a simple plastic one? 
How does it hold up to boiling temps?

I have found that a refractometer is next to useless for readings during and post ferment as the suspended yeast make the line very indistinct. Only once the beer is clear does it become useful again.

Cheers,
Petr


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## Screwtop

AndrewQLD said:


> I use a small syringe, grab a sample pre-boil and test at my leisure, then grab another sample post boil and test when cooled, usually only takes a few minutes to cool down and I have never seen a loss due to evaporation so the reading is accurate. Micro syringes are the best, very small volume and cool quickly.
> I can take a reading 1/2 a dozen times from the syringe and it is the same every time, perhaps you are getting varying readings from evaporation or heat.
> 
> I now only use my Hydro for post fermentation readings.
> Cheers
> Andrew




Identical to my use, I put the tip of the dropper under the surface of the hot wort and squeeze to get a good sample then squirt that back, do this a couple of times to make sure there is no condensate or any of the last sample in the bulb then take it out and slowly invert, some hot wort will squirt out then it's safe to lift out from the pressure change, squirt back all but a tiny bit in the bulb, swirl and lay that on the bench for a minute or two, by then this small sample has cooled, drop two drops on the lense and take your reading.

Like Andrew I tried multiple readings in the early days of using the Refrac but they were all the same so long as I too small samples and allowed them to cool. Once put some hot wort straight on the lense and the reading was so way off. Next reading confirmed that the hot sample was way out, so never did that again. 

They're fantastic for fermentation monitoring. Use a Pet bottle cap, take a small sample through the tap (spray sanitiser up into the tap post sample) catching it in the cap. Then mostly out of laziness - dip the bulb end of the dropper into the wort, enough will cling on to provide one drop onto the lense, repeat for two drops and take your reading (saves washing out the dropper post use, just spray the bulb with sanitiser and wipe to put away). Enter the reading into Beersmith's Refractometer Tool and select Fermenting Wort for the corrected reading. When the readings are the same over three days it's stopped. Then during racking/keging take a Hydro sample, it's always the same as the corrected Refrac reading for me, but I like to check.

Screwy


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## Hogan

For those who draw a sample from the top of the final runnings - make sure you stir the kettle well before you sample - otherwise you will get a low brix reading. 

I say this because I have made this error and lost a few more grey hairs thinking, 'good lord what has happened to my efficiency'.

Cheers, Hoges.


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## AndrewQLD

PJO said:


> That sounds like a good way to deal with it, didn't think about syringes.
> Do you use a simple plastic one?
> How does it hold up to boiling temps?
> 
> Cheers,
> Petr



Just plastic ones, haven't had a problem yet with the wort temp effecting the plastic, but it does cool quickly.


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## SpillsMostOfIt

AndrewQLD said:


> Just plastic ones, haven't had a problem yet with the wort temp effecting the plastic, but it does cool quickly.



I got one from the chemist for free and the one I bought from the HBS cost me fitty cent, so even if you only get a few brews out of each unit, they are (IMO) good value and less wasteful than if they were put to some extravagant medical use...


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## Screwtop

Hogan said:


> For those who draw a sample from the top of the final runnings - make sure you stir the kettle well before you sample







Important point above - stir before taking all pre and post boil readings.


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## pint of lager

When taking readings of the last runnings while sparging, to make sure the brix is not too low, I use a dropper, in a manner similar to Andrew's and draw straight from the runoff tube.

Your lens must be perfectly clean and dry, any dried wort or water will affect your reading.

Many brewers struggle when making the switch from hydrometer to refractometer, but it is worth the grey hairs. If you were used to a refractometer and had to switch to a hydrometer, you would struggle just as much.


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## SpillsMostOfIt

pint of lager said:


> If you were used to a refractometer and had to switch to a hydrometer, you would struggle just as much.



But you'd still be left using a hydrometer, so the bitter taste of sad irony would remain...


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## SJW

I am thinking about getting one of these but after reading all this and printing off the charts and comparing with Beersmith I am finding a big variation in answers. I am wondering if it's worth it? Screwy is the onlt one who offers a little hope with the way he does it. Just from what I have seen Doc's table does not appear to line up with what Beersmith says. I generally get a variation of 2 points between what the tables say and what Beersmith says. And from what I am reading getting a consistant Refractometer reading is a challenge too. 
But cooling the pre boil sample down is a pain.......I dont know what to do..................

Steve


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## drsmurto

If you calibrate the refractometer with water, and then take readings with a hydro of fermenting and fermented wort beersmith works out a correction factor. 

I havent use my hydro in the last few batches.


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## crozdog

SJW said:


> I am thinking about getting one of these but after reading all this and printing off the charts and comparing with Beersmith I am finding a big variation in answers. I am wondering if it's worth it? Screwy is the onlt one who offers a little hope with the way he does it. Just from what I have seen Doc's table does not appear to line up with what Beersmith says. I generally get a variation of 2 points between what the tables say and what Beersmith says. And from what I am reading getting a consistant Refractometer reading is a challenge too.
> But cooling the pre boil sample down is a pain.......I dont know what to do..................
> 
> Steve


Steve,

Just do it. I reckon the refractometer is 1 of the best bits of brewing gear you can buy. Like any new bit of kit, you need to work out it's inherrent perculiarities and your process for using it. you can't do that if you don't have 1 can you? B) 

2 points is very easy to make a mistake with when using a hydro due to bubbles, and the small scale of most hydro's. Remember it's an art as well as a science  

Attached is a spreadsheet I made and printed out to allow me to look up the conversions. I've put it in a plastic sleeve & use a fridge magnet to hang it on my keg fridge in the shed. Hope you find it useful

crozdog 

View attachment refractometer.xls


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## Cortez The Killer

I don't know how I'd go without my refractometer. It's definitely worth having one. Beats a hydrometer any day 

There doesn't seem to be anything conclusive about converting Brix to SG however

I did make this table a while ago that comes in handy http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=237324

Even with a 2 point margin for error if you take a refractometer and a hydrometer reading you can use this variance to correct future readings or draw up your own table based on the formula which best fits your results.

The only time I've had issues taking a reading is when there's been a lot of yeast in suspension

If funds permit - I'd definitely go for the refractometer

Cheers


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## SJW

Does it make a diff if u a brewing a dark beer like a stout? I read that these things are designed for clear sugar solutions. Also what impact does hops have on it when you take a sample close to the end of the boil?

Steve


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## drsmurto

the layer of wort on the refractometer is very thin so its not a problem. I brewed a stout last weekend and had no issues at all seeing the line.

Start/end of the boil makes no difference. I let the sample cool down first before taking a reading


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## SJW

Do u or did u ever double check your reading with a Hyrometer? how did it go?


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## drsmurto

I did the first few times i used it but dont these days altho i did double check the stout as i had an extra litre of wort! Once you calibrate it properly and against the hydro in beersmith you are set. I only ever use the hydro if i want to taste the beer along the way. 

That said, i pour out 1/2 cup and use it for both the refract reading and the taste test!

EDIT - the refract and hydro agreed.


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## SJW

Done deal. I will go and get one tomorrow. Thanks boys, and Leeboy.


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## glennheinzel

The info above will come in handy as I just bought one off ebay. 

FYI - There are a range of models on ebay. The different models that I could identify are-
1) Base model which needs a mini screwdriver to calibrate.
2) Model which has a calibration knob built into it.
3) Model with LED light built into it. ie, You need to point the first two models at a light source to get a reading whereas this has the light source built in.

Now I have to work out what is the next toy to buy...

Edit: Removed damn emoticon which showed up when it wasn't wanted.


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## BrissyBrew

MashMaster will be releasing a refractometer with brix 32% and SG for unfermented wort in the near future (as soon as I get around to taking some product pics), the SG scale has been calibrated to the approximate the average larger/light ale in colour. Saves having to think too hard on brew day when testing your runnings from your mash tun or kettle.


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## Cortez The Killer

Out of interest what formula did you use to derive SG from Brix

Cheers


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## tororm

The simple equation is:

SG = 1.000019 + [0.003865613(Brix)+ 0.00001296425(Brix) + 0.00000005701128(Brix)] 

A refractometer does not measure all fermentables in a wort however (a hydrometer does) to get an adjusted brix I divide it by 1.04- a number used by promash.

More information (from: http://www.byo.com/feature/1132.html)

 Measurements of the specific gravity of wort using a refractometer will not agree with the measurements of gravity using a hydrometer. Brix refractometers are meant to measure the percentage of sugar in a pure sucrose solution. Since wort is not simply sugar and water, you need to make a small correction because of the non-sugar components of the wort. The correction factor is different for different breweries. Beers that are very dark or have a very high starting gravity may also require a different correction factor. To calculate your correction value, measure the specific gravity with your refractometer. Then chill a sample of your wort and measure the gravity with a hydrometer. Convert the hydrometer reading to Brix using the equation: Brix = (SG-1)/0.004. Then divide the reading of the refractometer by your actual hydrometer reading. You should have a number between 1.02 and 1.06. If you do this for several worts and average them, you will get a number that you can use for your brewery. ProMash defaults to 1.04 and this is the number I use. Once you have this number, divide all of your subsequent refractometer readings by your calibration number to get the actual reading. For example, if your reading is 14.6 Brix then your corrected reading is 14.04 Brix (14.6/1.04=14.04). Then, we can convert the measurement in Brix to specific gravity. 

Once youve calibrated your refractometer and measured your wort correction factor, you can obtain a measurement of your specific gravity quickly, without having to cool enough wort for a hydrometer sample. You can use the refractometer to measure the gravity of your wort during run-off to help you to decide when to stop sparging. Likewise, you can quickly obtain your gravity anytime during the boil to determine if you need to keep boiling your barleywine or if adding water to your best bitter is in order. 

With careful use, a 030 Brix refractometer is precise to within 0.20.3 Brix. As such, it is less precise than a good hydrometer. However, it can provide a quick measurement of gravity to within about one gravity point at times when cooling the wort for a hydrometer sample would take too much time.

Hope this helps.


----------



## geoffi

tororm said:


> The simple equation is:
> 
> SG = 1.000019 + [0.003865613(Brix)+ 0.00001296425(Brix) + 0.00000005701128(Brix)]



I'd hate to see the complex equation... :blink:


----------



## Hogan

crozdog said:


> Attached is a spreadsheet I made and printed out to allow me to look up the conversions. I've put it in a plastic sleeve & use a fridge magnet to hang it on my keg fridge in the shed. Hope you find it useful
> 
> crozdog




Crozdog - Since I started AGing I have been using Docs BRIX=SG conversion chart attached below. I have also attached another chart from an unknown donor. Both these charts closely follow each other in their calculations but I see that yours differs form them in a number of points of gravity i.e. 12 brix in Docs is 1.049 whilst 12 brix in yours is 1.0466. 

It would be helpful if the difference between the charts could be explained. And Doc feel free to make comment also. 

The efforts of those such as yourself who go to a lot of trouble to make these charts is greatly appreciated but I am sure that all of us who use them would like the benefit of the most accurate chart.


View attachment BRIX_CHART.pdf



View attachment Refractometer_Chart___During_Fermentation___Brix_to_SG.xls




Cheers, Hoges


----------



## Cortez The Killer

Also have a look at this file

On the first tab called "SG_Brix_Plato_Conversions"

http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/xls/BrixPlatoSG.xls

Cheers


----------



## BrissyBrew

Brix=(SG-1.000019)/ (0.003865613+0.00001296425+0.00000005701128) I used this to put the SG markings against the Brix, you can do a quick add up and work out the adjustment for colour and the conversion for sucrose. 
SG = 1.000019 + [0.003865613(Brix)+ 0.00001296425(Brix) + 0.00000005701128(Brix)] 
I did some research on the adjustment formulas out there, all based on sugar, with a few adjustments for the colour of the beer. I also played around with beersmith/promash refract calibration adjustments for color they all come out so close that for testing wort run off or getting a pre-fermentation reading on the wort the slight variations for different formulas is not gong to make any real difference.


----------



## Millet Man

I have a 32 Brix refractometer (from Ross) and two Carlton plato hydrometers (0-10P and 10-20P) tested accurate to 0.1P. I brewed three beers last week in the range of 10-12P and pale to copper colour and the readings come out within 0.1P every time.

I use the hydrometers for the "official" OG reading and post fermentation but the refractometer is fantastic for monitoring the gravity through the process so I can quickly recalculate water and hop additions while I'm brewing, and it's proven to be accurate enough.

Cheers, Andrew.


----------



## crozdog

Hogan said:


> Crozdog - Since I started AGing I have been using Docs BRIX=SG conversion chart attached below. I have also attached another chart from an unknown donor. Both these charts closely follow each other in their calculations but I see that yours differs form them in a number of points of gravity i.e. 12 brix in Docs is 1.049 whilst 12 brix in yours is 1.0466.
> 
> It would be helpful if the difference between the charts could be explained. And Doc feel free to make comment also.
> 
> The efforts of those such as yourself who go to a lot of trouble to make these charts is greatly appreciated but I am sure that all of us who use them would like the benefit of the most accurate chart.
> 
> 
> View attachment 18558
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 18559
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, Hoges


Hoges,
you'll see the formula I used at the bottom of the chart ie SG = 1.000019 + [0.003865613(Brix) + 0.00001296425(Brix) + 0.00000005701128(Brix)]. i sourced this from an article on BYO http://byo.com/feature/1132.html . This is the same formula as mentioned by Brissy & Tororm - who also mentions the same link  

Can't comment deeply on the other charts as I unfortunately don't have the time to look at em now. There may be a difference with the chart for during fermentation due to the presence of alcohol. I only use my chart for unfermented wort. Doc, where did you source your formula?


----------



## Cortez The Killer

I believe Doc's formula came from here

http://www.primetab.com/formulas.html

This is where I got my formulas for the Refractometer chart during fermentation file

Cheers


----------



## KillerRx4

How about these...

http://onebeer.net/refractometer.shtml

http://morebeer.com/public/beer/refractbeer.xls


----------



## SJW

Now I am thinking I might just get a Hydrometer with a Thermometer in it and tape the adjstment chart to the brew table. As I dont fly sparge I don't think it would help that much. Might wait and see what these new mashmaster ones are like though.


Steve


----------



## Hogan

crozdog said:


> Hoges,
> you'll see the formula I used at the bottom of the chart ie SG = 1.000019 + [0.003865613(Brix) + 0.00001296425(Brix) + 0.00000005701128(Brix)]. i sourced this from an article on BYO http://byo.com/feature/1132.html . This is the same formula as mentioned by Brissy & Tororm - who also mentions the same link
> 
> Can't comment deeply on the other charts as I unfortunately don't have the time to look at em now. There may be a difference with the chart for during fermentation due to the presence of alcohol. *I only use my chart for unfermented wort. Doc, where did you source your formula?*




Same here crozdog - only use the chart for unfermented wort. Sure would like to hear from Doc or any other chart provider as to why there is such a discrepancy in the values.

Cheers, Hoges.


----------



## SJW

Check this out http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-HD-Salinity-Ref...1QQcmdZViewItem

It has SG on it as well as brix. Does anyone own one of these?

Steve


----------



## schooey

SJW said:


> Check this out http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-HD-Salinity-Ref...1QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> It has SG on it as well as brix. Does anyone own one of these?
> 
> Steve



That's not % brix, that's ppt salinity.


----------



## SJW

Who cares if it's showing a gravity scale, or am I missing something?


----------



## Stuster

You'll want one that goes higher than 1070, Steve. I think I got one from this seller.

No problems with it, turned up quickly and works fine.


----------



## BrissyBrew

Hogan said:


> Same here crozdog - only use the chart for unfermented wort. Sure would like to hear from Doc or any other chart provider as to why there is such a discrepancy in the values.
> 
> Cheers, Hoges.



The only real formula is from brix to SG for pure sucrose. The problem that follows from this is your beer is not clear like a glass of sugar water. The next problem is the adjustment between maltose and sucrose. All the formulas are based around adjusts for colour which have the greatest impact on the formula. If you play around with beersmith you will notice you can calibrate your refract, but really only of any use if your brewing the same beer over and over. The calibration tool adjusts for the colour and sugar composition of the wort. Most formulas are very close to each other and are calibrated using different beers. If you really wanted a smart program somebody would plot all the curves find the relationship between SRM, gravity and refraction and have a tool that provides approximate calibration on this, but if you using a hand held refractomter your calibration is not going to make a significant difference at the end of the day.

dual scale SG and Brix refrac.


----------



## schooey

BrissyBrew said:


> dual scale SG and Brix refrac.



Now that's just dead sexy...


----------



## Tony

I made this chart up a while back, printed it out and hung it up in the garage.

Its very close. I have checked it against a hydrometer reading many times and is always within a SG point and thats close enough for me.

Here is my chart...... i share  

View attachment SG_to_Brix_conversion.xls


----------



## matti

> The simple equation is:
> 
> SG = 1.000019 + [0.003865613(Brix)+ 0.00001296425(Brix) + 0.00000005701128(Brix)]
> 
> A refractometer does not measure all fermentables in a wort however (a hydrometer does) to get an adjusted brix I divide it by 1.04- a number used by promash.


I read through just about the entire thread because...

I used cortez the killer's spreadsheet after reading my wort and got a brix 6.2=*1.014* when OG was 1.044.

The above quote gives me 
_6.2/1.4= 4.43_

Promash gives -> 4.43 Plato= *1.017 *

My hydrometer reads *1.021 *for a brix of 6.2.

I am confused.
:huh: 

I decided to trust the hydrometer and took the pilsner out for a Diacetyl rest and hope it drops to 1.017 over 48hour and then I'll rack it.
Bloody oath I love my hydrometer.


----------



## SJW

The way I see it is, when I get a refractometer I will set it to 0 with water and just check all readings with the hydrometer and use the chart that appears to match. I suspect it's just one of thoses things that is just unknown at this stage and we will just have to make the best of what we got. No one is saying to thow away the hydrometer, just use the refrac the best we can.



> I decided to trust the hydrometer and took the pilsner out for a Diacetyl rest and hope it drops to 1.017 over 48hour and then I'll rack it.
> Bloody oath I love my hydrometer.



:icon_offtopic: I just raised the temp on my Pilsner at 1.020 or so and after 2 days at 18-20 deg C its at 1.014 so I got it crash chilling at 0 deg C for the next 24-48 hrs then I will keg with some Gelatine. BTW I bought some Isinglass and maybe I used it wrong but it does not come close to being half as good as Gelatine for clearing beers.

Steve


----------



## goatherder

Might be able to help you out matti.

The formula from BYO:



> SG = 1.000019 + [0.003865613(Brix)+ 0.00001296425(Brix) + 0.00000005701128(Brix)]



is suffering from a nasty typo. Have a look closely at it and it doesn't make sense - why expand the same 1st order variable (brix) into three separate parts?

My best guess is that the equation should have been a cubic, probably based on a regression fit of some experimental data. As such, the equation I've been using for some time is:

SG = 1.000019 + [0.003865613(Brix)+ 0.00001296425(Brix)^2 + 0.00000005701128(Brix)^3]

It plots pretty close to SG = 1.(brix times 4) and really really close to SG = 0.999 + Brix/233 between 0 and 30 brix.

Another tip I've found is to avoid using Beersmith for your conversions. It makes you calibrate the refract to create a fudge factor for all your measurements. The problem is that the fudge factor changes from beer to beer and is probably very dependent on your measurement accuracy. Ignore this altogether, either use the "times by four" method or knock up a spreadsheet with the above formula in it. I've found the above formula agrees with my hydro to within a point or two.

BTW, my refract is supposedly temperature compensating but I often get 0.2 brix difference between a hot sample and a cold sample. Not a big deal, just something to be aware of if you are a data geek.


----------



## matti

I was told I was a "visual mathematician" but it is still confusing, Goat!
What's ^ mean?
I'll copy the formula into a work sheet and see if that makes any sense.
Cheers.

P.s I do luv my refractometer too.... :wub:


----------



## schooey

^ means to the power of

so 2^2 = 2 squared = 4


----------



## matti

Thanks


----------



## andrewg1978

Hi all,

I just purchased a refractometer. I have a brew that has been going for 8 days and thought that I would try both hydrometer and refractometer but cannot get even close to the same reading...... Any ideas? or is it best not to measure after fermenation has started?

Thanks
Andrew


----------



## alexbrand

andrewg1978 said:


> I just purchased a refractometer. I have a brew that has been going for 8 days and thought that I would try both hydrometer and refractometer but cannot get even close to the same reading...... Any ideas? or is it best not to measure after fermenation has started?



After fermentation has startet there's alcohol in the wort. So the refraction is not correct anymore. You need to convert it concerning the OG. The refractometer reading together with the known OG can be used to calculate the actual gravity. There are some formulas and some tools do do so. I have no English tool, German only, but have a look at this: 

View attachment Brautools.zip


'Stammwrze' is OG, 'Bier/Jungbier' is refrac. reading, 'scheinb. Restextrakt' is what the hydrometer would say.

If there's no English tool I try to make one. Tell me.

Alex


----------



## yardy

i have neither a refractometer nor a hydrometer (it fell off the brewstand a few brews back) getting by without either quite easily.


----------



## Maple

Great tool Alex! I'll have to use a translate website to figure most of it out, but the tool is very good, just my foreign language skills that require work!

Maple


----------



## alexbrand

Maple said:


> Great tool Alex! I'll have to use a translate website to figure most of it out, but the tool is very good, just my foreign language skills that require work!



Indeed, it's a nice tool. It's written by Earl Scheid, a German brew mate. He also wrote a reciepe maker for Open Office and Excel.

At the moment I'm putting these formulas into a 'new' progamme. So it'll be available in English as well. Give me some minutes...lol...

Alex


----------



## andrewg1978

Thanks for the download, looks like a good tool. But elas still can't work this one out. :angry: 

Intial OG-1040 (5.3%)
after 8 days
reading with tap water - 0 brix have checked twice
reading with refactometer - 4.5brix (approx 1019) - have checked reading 3 times!
reading with hydrometer - 1010 - have checked reading twice


Any ideas?

NB - 22Ltrs x Coopers Int'l larger with 1kg BE2 @ 20deg


----------



## bljpoad

alexbrand said:


> After fermentation has startet there's alcohol in the wort. So the refraction is not correct anymore.



I think this is the point that you are missing. The refractive index of water and alcohol are different. So when fermentation has started, you have alcohol present in the wort and can not get an accurate reading with a refractometer without compensating for this fact. Before fermentation there is no alcohol so there is no problem. 
- Bez

EDIT: I need to watch my spelling!


----------



## Stuster

andrewg1978 said:


> Intial OG-1040 (5.3%)



+1 to what Berwyck said. Just wondering what you mean by 5.3% here? :huh:


----------



## andrewg1978

Stuster said:


> +1 to what Berwyck said. Just wondering what you mean by 5.3% here? :huh:




5.3% is potential alcohol content,



> you have alcohol present in the wort and can not get an accurate reading with a refractometer without compensating for this fact



sorry for the hard of learning!!! re-compensating for the alcohole that is present, how does one do this? Am I missing something?

Appreciate the help!!


----------



## alexbrand

andrewg1978 said:


> sorry for the hard of learning!!! re-compensating for the alcohole that is present, how does one do this? Am I missing something?



Nothing to say sorry for. For compensating the refraction error you need the formula and a calculator. Or the above mentioned programme. It's almost ready, I just have to look up some English expressions. Just stand by.

Alex


----------



## alexbrand

So... here we go. I attatched the promised tool for using a refractometer during or after fermentation. It is just a BETARELEASE. So please tell me about problems. I'm not a programmer, so there may be many (runtime) errors in the programme. The calculated values themselves should be okay.

I still didn't find all the English expressions needed. Probably you can help me out...


View attachment RefractorBETA.zip


Alex


----------



## Effect

is it necessary to get a refractometer?

i mean what benefit am I going to get from having a refractometer (other than the ease of getting readings from small amounts of wort)? Am I able to find out the gravity reading with a refractometer during fermentation. From what Doc said in his inital post it seems to me that I can't? So why would I want one?

A hydrometer can measure the gravity of any liquid yeah? but refractometer only pre-ferment???

Please help :S


----------



## the_fuzz

Phillip said:


> is it necessary to get a refractometer?
> 
> i mean what benefit am I going to get from having a refractometer (other than the ease of getting readings from small amounts of wort)? Am I able to find out the gravity reading with a refractometer during fermentation. From what Doc said in his inital post it seems to me that I can't? So why would I want one?
> 
> A hydrometer can measure the gravity of any liquid yeah? but refractometer only pre-ferment???
> 
> Please help :S



I love my refractometer - Really only a benifit when doing AG - can't really see the point for a KKer

Very easy to get all your readings, taking readings straight from your wort running out of the mash tun is very handy

You can use it during ferment and after - just need to use the right calc's - They are in Beersmith

I only use the Hydrometer now to check colour and clarity


----------



## Adamt

You can get a good estimation of the fermenting wort gravity if you know the original wort gravity. Beersmith is really helpful for this.


----------



## Frank

Phillip said:


> A hydrometer can measure the gravity of any liquid yeah? but refractometer only pre-ferment???



As others have stated you can get conversions to work out the SG of wort + alcohol.
When your beer is finishing ferment, they are great to ensure the same reading is achieved for a couple of days, does not matter what the number is, or on what scale, as long as it is static. When you consistenly get the same number, then you can go back to your hydrometer for the final reading.


----------



## Hervey

Boston said:


> As others have stated you can get conversions to work out the SG of wort + alcohol.
> When your beer is finishing ferment, they are great to ensure the same reading is achieved for a couple of days, does not matter what the number is, or on what scale, as long as it is static. When you consistenly get the same number, then you can go back to your hydrometer for the final reading.


----------



## Hervey

Being new to brewing, I am looking for a refractometer that will show me when the brix level is static and the fermentation is complete. Is the 0-32% brix refractometer the one to get, or is there a better one?


----------



## Adamt

No simple brewing instrument will tell you whether fermentation is complete or not, only by achieving the same reading over 2 or 3 days and the (converted) SG being around or below the expected FG is the fermentation finished. 

0-32% brix is a good scale to get, but being new to brewing I would almost stick with a hydrometer; it gives you direct SG readings. I find my refractometer is most helpful taking quick measurements during my mash.


----------



## smollocks

Adamt said:


> 0-32% brix is a good scale to get, but being new to brewing I would almost stick with a hydrometer; it gives you direct SG readings. I find my refractometer is most helpful taking quick measurements during my mash.



I read somewhere else here that the 0-32% scale is too small to read - does anyone else believe a 0-18% scale would be better?


----------



## Frank

smollocks said:


> I read somewhere else here that the 0-32% scale is too small to read - does anyone else believe a 0-18% scale would be better?


Conversion to SG is approx 4 times Brix. Therefore 18 brix = 1.072 SG. 0-18 scale would be easiest to read (if you don't do barley wine,, and don't need to measure first run wort from your mash), but I think they are less common than the 0-32 scale, therefore more expensive.


----------



## brendo

I use a 0-32% myself and find it fine - the brix side is easier to get a clear reading on than the SG down the other side.

Only of real benefit for checking SG out of the mash tun and pre-boil to quickly check how you are tracking against your targets - nice to have raher than a necessity.

One it hits the fermentor, I use a hydrometer for all samples going forward.

Cheers,

Brendo


----------



## smollocks

brendo said:


> One it hits the fermentor, I use a hydrometer for all samples going forward.



Just curious, why do you use the hydrometer during fermentation? 

I like to monitor SG repeatedly toward the end of fermentation to ensure I don't get bottle bombs, and one of the appeals of the refractometer is that I don't have to continually waste beer samples as I do with the hydrometer.


----------



## Pollux

It's not wasted.......

You taste them.....


----------



## Fourstar

AFAIK, Refracometers measure light density through liquids with water as the reference. If you measure fermetned beer it will be out because alcohol is lighter than water. there is a calculation you can make to adjust.. honestly its not really worth the effort. I only use mine during mash runoff and to grab the og into the boiler so i can adjust boiling times etc. You can however use a hydrometer and a refractometer in conjunction to find out the starting gravity of a fermented beer if it was unknown.... google it!


----------



## newguy

It is worth the effort considering all the hydrometers I've broken. When I broke the last one I finally bought a refractometer and have been kicking myself ever since for not buying it sooner. I don't have a hydrometer anymore and I don't want one either. I'm happy with my refractometer, and it's a simple matter of plugging the OG and current (finished) brix reading into this online worksheet to come up with the FG. Easy.


----------



## Stuster

newguy said:


> It is worth the effort considering all the refractometers hydrometers I've broken.



I'm guessing this is what you meant, newguy.  

I tend to use my hydrometer for measuring FG. However, it's certainly handy to use the refractometer if it's a beer that's taking ages to finish instead of taking many samples. It's really easy to do the calculations, Fourstar, if you have a copy of Beersmith etc.


----------



## newguy

Stuster said:


> I'm guessing this is what you meant, newguy.
> 
> I tend to use my hydrometer for measuring FG. However, it's certainly handy to use the refractometer if it's a beer that's taking ages to finish instead of taking many samples. It's really easy to do the calculations, Fourstar, if you have a copy of Beersmith etc.



D'oh! Yes, that's what I meant. Better go edit the original now.


----------



## raven19

newguy said:


> It is worth the effort considering all the hydrometers I've broken. When I broke the last one I finally bought a refractometer and have been kicking myself ever since for not buying it sooner. I don't have a hydrometer anymore and I don't want one either. I'm happy with my refractometer, and it's a simple matter of plugging the OG and current (finished) brix reading into this online worksheet to come up with the FG. Easy.



+1 for wishing I got one sooner too! Only broke 1 hydrometer, and now that I have a refractometer I will never go back.


----------



## Fourstar

Stuster said:


> It's really easy to do the calculations, Fourstar, if you have a copy of Beersmith etc.



Really, well beersmith is my brew application of choice. i havnt bothered using the refrac tool yet. Looks like i might start using it in the future.


----------



## pdilley

For what its worth I bought this unit from Hong Kong for $26 Australian Dollars on eBay.

Should be here in about 7 more days.


----------



## Bizier

Brewer Pete said:


> For what its worth I bought this unit from Hong Kong for $26 Australian Dollars on eBay.
> 
> Should be here in about 7 more days.



What unit?
What unit?
I must know!


----------



## pdilley

Bizier said:


> What unit?
> What unit?
> I must know!



The infamous ATC 32% Brix Refractomer:
A sucrose refractometer

Sold out of Hong Kong, quoted in GBP although AUD equivalent was $26

Specifications

* Measuring range: 0-32% Brix
* Accuracy : +/-0.20% Brix
* Compensation temperature range: 10C-30C
* Calibration: zero calibration with water at 20C
* Solid aluminum alloy body 

Package Includes

* 1 refractometer
* 1 mini screw driver for calibration
* 1 pc of 2 mm (in diameter) pipette
* 50 pcs of precise 1 mm (in diameter) pipettes
* Operation Manual
* Hard plastic portable carrying case

Something like this:






No affiliations-- but if you're too lazy to search, I bought from this guy:
easylifeproduct


----------



## Bizier

I just had a stupid arguement with my girlfriend over the necessity of a refrac to an AG brewer.

Kind Brewer Pete, would you kindly in your infinite benevolence post the results of your infamous ATC 32% Brix Refractomer, so I can politely submit these for review?


----------



## pdilley

Bizier said:


> I just had a stupid arguement with my girlfriend over the necessity of a refrac to an AG brewer.
> 
> Kind Brewer Pete, would you kindly in your infinite benevolence post the results of your infamous ATC 32% Brix Refractomer, so I can politely submit these for review?




Kindly stepping aside from arguments with women 

Refractometer arrived early but didn't have free time where with all the getting of additional brew adjuncts, bottling day, and a new 60 liter fermenter. I finally got some distiller water to calibrate the thing. It said it was already calibrated from the factory but seeing how it had such a long trip I wanted to be sure before using.

First night I missed my 20c window of oppurtunity. Second night I cought it just in time. I didn't use ambient air temp or gauges around the house but instead an accurate glass lab thermometer measuring the distiller water sample.

20c on the line and I pulled the included adjustment screwdriver out of it's bubblewrap and place two drops on the prism and waited 30 seconds for the sample to stabilize before taking a reading. Reading was spot on the 0 Brix line. Calibration was perfect as is out of the box.

I have the brix only version so I have a large brix scale to look at insead of multiple scales so the scale is clear to see. I have 140watt warm light spectrum fluro light source so bright to see and no heat generated by the light. Actual watt is under 40 but equivalent to the high number in incandescent.

So far tested all my juices, run through beersmith, have conversion sheets for mead and corrections for readings with alcohol in the sample.

Two drops, still can't get over it 

Jazzed!


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

It's the Devil's work I tell ya. :lol: I got an expensive Japanese one , be dammed if I can get it to give me as an accurate measurement as my hydro.Dam thing is possessed.Things all over the place like a mad womans shit.
Only my humble opinion.If you like yours go for it.
GB


----------



## pdilley

You may have a non-temperature compensating refractometer so you have to adjust the results on every reading.

Or are you doing readings during fermentation with alcohol in the sample drops? That will skew the results as well and needs corrections applied.

I primarily got mine for #1 Mead, #2 Cider. I have not applied it *yet* to brewing beer.

I actually now have to get a really damn good/accurate hydrometer so I can cross-compare calibration issues and results.


Hydrometer:
+ : Dunk it in an take a reading
+ : Good for final readings with alcohol
- : Needs temperature corrections
- : Large sample size not good for small batch brewing (which is done outside of the realm of beer)
- : Very fragile, costs add up when you keep buying decent hydrometers over and over again

Refractometer:
+ : Only two liquid drops sample size
+ : Good for original readings in a portable environment (in the vineyard, next to a fruiting tree, etc.)
+ : Rather rugged, especially compared to a hydrometer, but of course within limits
- : Needs temperature corrections if you didn't buy an automatic correcting one
- : Needs corrections if you have alcohol in the sample
but all corrections taken care for you by This Website: Homebrew Recractometer Calculations


Use both is my philosophy. Both in the areas where their particular strong suits shine through.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

I did cool to 20 c for samples and calibrated at 20c. Still not that accurate.Never tried it on fermenting beer. It sits in the spare bits brewing box, its happy and Im happy.Its nice to be happy.  
GB


----------



## pdilley

Post a link to it so we can all know which model to avoid


----------



## Bizier

Thank you Brewer Pete.
I may just procure this item you speak of.


----------



## Fourstar

I got mine from ebay too Pete!

Great little piece of equiptment with a packet of 10 pippets thrown in!

calibrated to 0 brix out of the box and readings next to my hydrometer are quite good. (i find my hydrometer is unstable due to CO2 in solution, etc.)


----------



## pdilley

Fourstar said:


> I got mine from ebay too Pete!
> 
> Great little piece of equiptment with a packet of 10 pippets thrown in!
> 
> calibrated to 0 brix out of the box and readings next to my hydrometer are quite good. (i find my hydrometer is unstable due to CO2 in solution, etc.)





Enjoy the unit knowing its the same model from the same factory I've seen selling in down in Vic for close to $150.

Now that I'm thinking of getting Bees I know where to go to get a Honey specific refractometer at a very fair price of $26 



Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Bizier

I will have to tell my father about this as well, he is about as passionate about his bees as I am my beer.


----------



## Fourstar

mmmm home grown honey... something i aspire to!


----------



## fcmcg

Brewer Pete said:


> Enjoy the unit knowing its the same model from the same factory I've seen selling in down in Vic for close to $150.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete


I got mine off ebay too...
I feel sad that i could not afford to support my LHBS on this purchase but ...
I do spend a quid there anyway lol


----------



## pdilley

piss easy and 120+ kg of honey a hive stack, more if you get more than one collection out of them per season. I can see with a few hives in the yard, 400-800 kg of honey and just begging to be brewed!


----------



## Frank

This is my new refractometer.



Can be purchased online for around $300USD.
Search for Atago PAL-1 on the net, they can also be bought in Australia, but will cost around $850.
It is also temperature compensated.

Many other models available, a couple that read SG scale (of urine - would need to cross out the label on this one.)

Brix scale models are about the cheapest because they are most common. I technically did not pay for mine because work "_needed_" one as I run vineyards and need to measure grape sugar levels and this is a lot quicker and easier to read than a hand held. Vintage lasts about 2 months for me, therefore the other 10 months will be looked after at home.


----------



## jonocarroll

Boston said:


> This is my new refractometer. <snip>


Purrdy. Decent bling.



Boston said:


> Many other models available, a couple that read SG scale (of urine - would need to cross out the label on this one.)


When I first brought mine home (standard scope type), I asked the wife "guess what this is"... 

Wife: "A refractometer? We use those at work (veterinary pathology lab), I probably could have got you one cheap"
Me: "Dang. Wait, what's the scale on yours?"
Wife: "S.G."
Me: "Dang. Wait, what's it calibrated to?"
Wife: "Cat urine."
Me: " <_< ... ... ... Never mind."

<awaits "you could use it to make VB" jokes>


----------



## pdilley

Very modern bling!

Wonder if they put correction formulas into the unit, otherwise will need to deal with the difference between maltose in solution versus succrose in solution. Maltose will bend light at a slightly different rate than succrose does.

I use a simple multiplier to correct for maltose even though there is not a linear relationship between Brix/Plato and Specific Gravity and also after 1.050 the error rate goes a bit out of hand it works. I have a big nasty correction formula thats way more accurate bit I put that into my program Im slowly writing to do all the conversions and corrections for all sorts of related brew stuff from yeast profiles to attenuation projection to tools of the ferment. For now its just an engine full of formulae with no inteface.

Brix being a percentage w/w of succrose in distilled water its easy to mix up differin weights of sugar and distilled water to use as baselines to determine the accuracy of your refractometer at different range points. 10 Brix should be 10 grams succrose disolved in 90 grams distilled water. 20 Brix is 20 grams succrose disolved in 80 grams of water. And so on...

Once your refractometer is tested you can run your hydrometer against the baselines of pure distilled water, 10 Brix distilled water, and 20 Brix distilled water. See where the deviance points are and see which tool is giving you better readings across the scale.

Every .1 degree Brix is roughly 4 brewing points though really a little less than 3.9 points.


----------



## Sammus

I swear some of these refractometers are cursed if so many of you love them so much. I bought a MM unit a while back, couldn't get even a few similar readings no matter how many in a row I took. I took care to make sure there were no bubbles or anything, even rinsed the lens with distilled water and dried it with a lint free cloth to ensure no contaminents. Then I read that using hot wort on it is bad because it will evaporate a bit and give you shoddy readings, so I tried it with chilled wort. Still no luck, I could take 5 readings in a row, rinsing with distilled and drying between each reading, and not get the same reading twice. Then the little pin slipped out of the lens thingy never to be found again. I never trusted to the stupid thing anyway, one in ten I'd get a reading that agreed with the trusty old hydrometer. Thing was a stupid waste of money.


----------



## pdilley

Sammus said:


> I swear some of these refractometers are cursed



They must be! :blink: 

Or maybe its down to technique.

Bobby did a video of refractometers vs hyrdrometers let me see if I can get it all linked up.

Bobby's refractometer is the same model as mine except with the built in battery operated LED diode providing lighting. I use ambient. Too bright a light will skew readings as well. On Northern Brewers there is a lot of people going refractometer over hydrometer, and even some I Love My Refractometer Web Sites popping up. Its a bit out of place seeing others with the ?same units? not able to get it working for them.



> A refractometer with ATC (Auto Thermal Compensation) is unaffected by temperature, fermentation gases and only takes one to two drops to measure the sugar content of your must. However, it is effected by the different refractive index of ethanol. As the amount of alcohol increases the refractive index changes algorithmically. Unlike a Hydrometer the reading in a refractometer will never go to zero.



These guys have no issues with the same model I use. If you don't correct your readings then you won't be reading the correct information  - ok bad pun.
Follow the corrected Plato down and see how the deviation is tiny from the predicted Plato.


*SG = 1.001843 - 0.002318474(OB) - 0.000007775(OB^2) - 0.000000034(OB^3) + 0.00574(AB) + 0.00003344(AB^2) + 0.000000086(AB^3) 
*SG = Specific Gravity, OB = Original Brix, AB = Actual Brix (Brix Readings During Fermentation) 
*Formula was derived from the 69th edition (1988-1989) of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, "Concentrative Properties of Aqueous Solutions: Conversion Tables", Table 88 Sucrose 


If you degas, spin the ol' hydrometer and do temperature corrections to your hydro readings, what techniques are you applying to the refractometer readings?



Colder samples than Calibration temperature results in small deviations, Hotter samples than Calibration temperature results in larger deviations.



UC California - Fresno uses and does a lot of write ups and work with the same model refractometer I use. Apparently they are working great for people in fruit, wine, and in Bobby's case, beer measurements. I think it might be refractometer damage or quality control at the factory. The high end analogue refractometers have a higher ATC range and thats pretty much all the extra money buys you. The cheaper units like ours have a smaller ATC range and you'd want to stick near calibration if worried about quality control within the assembly line.


Need to check for any defects such as damaged prism, dislocated prism, etc.




Your not going anywhere with any level of accuracy until you calibrate your tools.


One of many techniques to calibrate:

... will continue in the next post.


----------



## pdilley

> A refractometer with ATC (Auto Thermal Compensation) is unaffected by temperature, fermentation gases and only takes one to two drops to measure the sugar content of your must. However, it is effected by the different refractive index of ethanol. As the amount of alcohol increases the refractive index changes algorithmically. Unlike a Hydrometer the reading in a refractometer will never go to zero.





> In theory the "ethanol effect" is predictable and a formula should be able to compensate for it's refractive change.





> The formula tracked like rocket science. Over the 10 day fermentation we averaged less than 1% difference and that falls into the realm of user error.



Ok now that the secret is out -- That you can not pick up a Refractometer and expect it to work like you use a Hydrometer because different laws of Physics are at play here. If you don't know, its understandable that you put it away in the back of the drawer and rubbish it publicly because you didn't understand how the tool works. But now you do, so its time to learn how to use your tool and see if it was tool error or operator error all along.

*Making a Calibration Test Kit *
_(If your refractometer passes the calibration with flying colours but your wort measurements are still all over the place, then its a pointer to your technique. Else, it will show you have a dodgy refractometer that needs replacement.)_




_One of many ways. To be more accurate you can build differing test samples based on accurate weights of both water and sugar alone._

1. Obtain the following materials (Fig. 6). 
a. 4 bottles of drinking water containing 500ml (16.9 fl oz) each. 
b. A 100-count box of sugar packets with each packet containing 3 grams of sugar. The amount of sugar is specified on the box where nutrition information is listed.
_If you cannot get 3 gram packets, make sure you have an accurate scale to measure out 3 grams of sugar to use. _
c. Felt tip marker. 
d. TC or ATC refractometer.
e. A clean, soft, lint-free cloth. 


2. Carefully remove 5 capfuls of water from each bottle to allow room for the addition of sugar. 


3. Clearly label each bottle with one of the following designations: 0, 5, 10, 20. Marking the bottle and cap using a permanent marker will maintain the identity of the bottle contents. Count out the correct number of sugar packets and place them in front of the bottle with the corresponding number.


4. Hold the sugar packets up to the light to make sure contents are uniform. Although the box may indicate that each sugar packet contains 3 grams of sugar, it was found that there was a lot of variability in the actual weight of the sugar packets (use an accurate scale to be sure!). Carefully pour the contents of the specified number of sugar packets into each bottle. The bottle marked with 5 will receive 5 sugar packets, etc.


5. Secure the cap and vigorously shake each bottle until the sugar is completely dissolved. At the end of this step, four bottles containing 0, 5, 10, and 20 packets of sugar make your calibration test kit.


--- done ---


*CALIBRATING*

1. Inspect the refractometer prism for scratches, chips, separations or other aberrations that may interfere with proper readings. If dusty, rinse (do not submerge) with water and wipe with a clean, soft, lint-free cloth.

2. Note the temperature at the time of readings. Most ATC refractometers operate properly in the 68-86F (20-30C) range. A laboratory or office at room temperature should be used if outside temperatures exceed the manufacturer's recommended temperature range. 

3. Place a few drops of pure water on the prism surface. If it is an analogue refractometer, close the cover. If bubbles form, gently pressing the cover will remove the bubbles and help disperse the water over the entire surface. For digital refractometers, make sure that bubbles in the well are eliminated prior to making a reading.

4. Hold the refractometer up to natural light or an incandescent bulb to obtain the reading. Looking into the eyepiece, one should see a distinct separation between a blue and white section, often called a contrast line. If the contrast line is not directly at zero, then adjust by turning the screw on the top of the refractometer until it reads zero. Replace the plastic cap after adjusting the calibration screw to prevent water from entering the refractometer. You can adjust the focus by twisting the eyepiece until the scale can be seen clearly. Once the refractometer is calibrated to zero with pure water, dry the surfaces with a clean cloth. Digital refractometers should be calibrated by pressing the zero button with water in the well.

5. Place some of the solution from the 5-packet bottle on the prism and close the cover, making sure that the entire surface is filled and void of bubbles. Note the value and write it in Table 1 under Your Value. For digital refractometers, place the solution in the well and press the start button. Record the value in Table 1. The value will remain on the LED display until the next sample is read.

6. Between samples, clean the refractometer prism surface with pure water and wipe dry. 

7. Repeat steps 5 and 6 with bottles marked 10 and 20. Record the values in Table 1. 

8. Compare your values with those in Table 1. If your values are outside the expected range, follow the calibration steps a second time. If they are still outside the range, read the following Trouble Shooting section for help.





--- done ---


*TROUBLE SHOOTING*

1. Check to make sure that the bottled water used was unopened/new. 
2. Check to make sure that 500ml water bottles and 3g sugar packets were used. 
3. Check to make sure that 5 capfuls of water were removed before adding sugar. 
4. Check to make sure that the packets had close to the same amount of sugar in them and that the appropriate number of packets were added to each of the bottles. 
5. Check to see if the refractometer is temperature compensating. If it is not, a corrections table is needed to make adjustments. The corrections table is only valid if the temperature was recorded for each reading. 
6. Check to make sure that an ATC refractometer was used within its range of 68-86F (20-30C). 
7. Check to make sure that the solution is within the temperature range of the ATC refractometer.
8. Replace the batteries in the digital refractometer at the beginning of each season. 



Hopefully this is the end on my piece on Refractometers 
Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## pdilley

For the curious.

An example of Refractometer usage exclusively through a Mead fermentation and with the final measured figures shows the classic example of the effect of ethanol on the Observed BRIX value and the real degrees BRIX value corrected. Includes corrected gravity readings as well to what a Hydrometer would give, of course without having to use a Hydromter. You can use one to test your final results to see how tightly you've tracked the ethanol skew in the formula.

Example of Refractometer use in a fermentation

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## pdilley

Boston said:


> This is my new refractometer.
> View attachment 26086
> 
> Can be purchased online for around $300USD.
> Search for Atago PAL-1 on the net, they can also be bought in Australia, but will cost around $850.
> It is also temperature compensated.
> 
> 
> Brix scale models are about the cheapest because they are most common. I technically did not pay for mine because work "_needed_" one as I run vineyards and need to measure grape sugar levels and this is a lot quicker and easier to read than a hand held. Vintage lasts about 2 months for me, therefore the other 10 months will be looked after at home.



Boston, I've been researching formulas for scales conversions and came across a blurb on the digital refractometer that could be a weakness. They are supposed to use an infrared beam that is directed at the sample and measure the vibrational rate calibrated for sucrose. The plus is they are more accurate than the analogue refractometers but they are negative in that they target sucrose and skip other fermentable sugars. The blurb mentioned the handheld analogue style refractometer is more accurate for the representation of all sugars in solution.

If you get time to test and are curious if it is so, a mix of known amounts of various brewing sugars in solution and measure with the digital and an analogue. Then evaporate the water and measure the residual solids.

For grape work it should not be an issue. I don't see the weakness as a major issue in brewing either as it pertains mostly to beer brewing of which I don't tend to use the refractometer exclusively in.

I'm still bloody curious now though 

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## hefevice

Recently bought the dual SG/Brix refractometer from one of the sponsors here.

Previously I have used a Brix scaled refractometer (along with a set of conversion tables), confirming the OG with a hydrometer at the end of the boil. For the last two batches, I have used the new dual scaled refractometer, and I _really_ love it. I am still taking a hydrometer sample at the end of the boil, but I am finding that the refractometer is so easy, convenient and so far accurate that I may no longer need to do this.

Main lessons are:

1. Calibrate with water each brew day,
2. Allow the sample enough time to cool on the face of the refractometer before taking the reading.


----------



## moovet

Brewer Pete said:


> have conversion sheets for mead and corrections for readings with alcohol in the sample.



Pete, what conversion sheets do you use. Could you please tell me what you think my current gravity is on a mead and the % Alc

OG- 1.140 Hydrometer

During fermentation - 20.6 Brix ATC Refractometer

I tried the website you linked but couldn't get it to make sense.

Last hydrometer reading I did was 1.052.

Cheers,


M


----------



## pdilley

Try this web page, the calculator layout may work for you better:

http://brew.stderr.net/refractometer.html

At the top enter 140 in the gravity and when you tab or click out of the box it will tell you your Brix should be reading close to 32.2 on your refractometer at a temperature of 20 degrees C.

Now this is the only time where Measured Gravity and Brix will agree with each other on a simple straight conversion.

From now on as more alcohol from fermentation enters your liquid it will bend more and more the light the refractometer measures to get its reading. At the beginning with a little bit of alcohol Brix and Gravity are close to each other in value when doing a simple conversion between the two. At the end of fermentation with a lot more alcohol the difference is bigger between the two values.

So we use a second calculator that takes care of the skew. Critical is the original gravity or original brix reading to get original gravity because the calculator needs to know how far down from the value we are currently to determine how much skew needs to be applied to make the end answer accurate.

So on that page down below put in 140 in the Starting Gravity area and as you monitor a ferment with refractometer to not waste your mead on constant hydrometer sampling you put your current Brix reading in. You read 20.6.

Put 20.6 into Brix

As soon as you tab or click out of the box it should tell you that your gravity reading should be close to 1.051 and that the estimated alcohol percentage is 11.9% alcohol in solution.

Volumetic dilution is easy as well if you can't get that last 2% by alcohol conversion you can reduce the gravity in solution with water dilution which is fine as long as it's not a large amount because it will dilute everything across the board: Alcohol, residual sugar, aroma, flavour. Small amounts are unnoticeable and large amounts are noticeable.

If you have exactly 25 liters of 1.050 liquid then water which is 1.000 gravity liquid will be added. If you add 1 litre of water you have 26 liters in the end of total liquid.

So Liquid litres multiplied by Liquid gravity
add to this Water litres multiplied by Water gravity
then divide by the final Combined litres amount.

That's your new gravity amount.

Keep playing with litres of water to dial in a gravity you want to achieve.

You are looking for about 18.5 or so Brix reading in an optimum perfect world with your yeast you used. Or a gravity around 1.036 to 1.038 or so. See if you can find out how much water dilutes to a gravity of 1.040, 1.048 and 1.036 as an excercise. As a further excercise you can find out say with 100mL sample size. Then, as a final excercise you can pull off samples and dilute to each gravity level and taste tem and see if you can tell any difference between both them and the undiluted original liquid.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## moovet

Thanks a lot Pete. I was putting in 1140 or 1.140 instead of 140 which was where I was screwing up. It makes more sense now and matches the hydrometer reading which hasn't moved much since the last week. 

Cheers,


Moovet


----------



## ianh

Broke the hydrometer so thinking of buying a refractometer, just wondering if anyone is using one of these


link 

I don't brew large beers so sg 1.070 is more than enough.

Thanks in advance

Ian


----------



## pdilley

Only if you want to raise salt water fish. You need a refractometer that has been made to measure sucrose.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## ianh

Brewer Pete said:


> Only if you want to raise salt water fish. You need a refractometer that has been made to measure sucrose.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete



Thanks Brewer Pete should have known better.


----------



## Malted

I came across a Refractometer with 0-40% Brix AND 0-25% Alc on Ebay. Refrac Brix & Alc on Ebay
Looks to be the goods and cheap. On the adage of you get what you pay for: do you think it would be a useful device or potentially cheap and nasty?
What are your thoughts?


----------



## fraser_john

I got mine off ebay and it was worked well, only wish I had bought the 0-18 Brix as it would make it easy to read accurately (upto 1.070 starting gravity). The 0-40 scale tends to be hard to read a difference between 1.040 and say 1.041 type readings. And given I rarely brew starting gravities above 1.060, the 0-18 Brix would have been a better choice.

Something to think about.


----------



## Malted

fraser_john said:


> I got mine off ebay and it was worked well, only wish I had bought the 0-18 Brix as it would make it easy to read accurately (upto 1.070 starting gravity). The 0-40 scale tends to be hard to read a difference between 1.040 and say 1.041 type readings. And given I rarely brew starting gravities above 1.060, the 0-18 Brix would have been a better choice.
> 
> Something to think about.




Thanks John, just the sort of practical advice I was seeking.  . Seems like you can get them in any manner of ranges and variables...


----------



## ianh

fraser_john said:


> I got mine off ebay and it was worked well, only wish I had bought the 0-18 Brix as it would make it easy to read accurately (upto 1.070 starting gravity). The 0-40 scale tends to be hard to read a difference between 1.040 and say 1.041 type readings. And given I rarely brew starting gravities above 1.060, the 0-18 Brix would have been a better choice.
> 
> Something to think about.



Just got myself an 18 Brix one, likewise have not brewed anything above 1.060 OG. Have not used it yet but brew day today.


----------



## fraser_john

ianh said:


> Just got myself an 18 Brix one, likewise have not brewed anything above 1.060 OG. Have not used it yet but brew day today.



Be interested in hearing feedback. I could be tempted to buy another one and keep the first one for testing my grapes.


----------



## MattSR

Since I like to do a yearly batch of russian imperial, I grabbed the 64 brix model that also has the SG scale.

Havent used mine yet, but the time to brew is coming very soon


----------



## ianh

fraser_john said:


> Be interested in hearing feedback. I could be tempted to buy another one and keep the first one for testing my grapes.



Sorry for delay replying. Very happy with mine, now I have done a few brews, good agreement between refractometer and hydrometer for both OG and FG. 

Will probably just use the refractometer in future.


----------



## wambesi

How did I brew prior without one!!

First (well second if you count the comp thread) real post since I went o/s and I just had to give it a mention. I finally bought myself a refractometer (as well as a bunch of other stuff) and must say it is soooo much easier and quicker than the 'ol hydrometer.

Also hit every mark I had to on my first brew day in almost 9 months....

I bought the one from Ross with both Brix and SG, just makes it easier I guess. 
I should have got one so much sooner.


----------



## toadskin

wambesi said:


> How did I brew prior without one!!
> 
> First (well second if you count the comp thread) real post since I went o/s and I just had to give it a mention. I finally bought myself a refractometer (as well as a bunch of other stuff) and must say it is soooo much easier and quicker than the 'ol hydrometer.
> 
> Also hit every mark I had to on my first brew day in almost 9 months....
> 
> I bought the one from Ross with both Brix and SG, just makes it easier I guess.
> I should have got one so much sooner.



I got one off Ebay with the Brix and SG but how do you read the damn things. Mine just gives me blue slowly fading to white but it is impossible to pick any particular line like they show in the instructions. I took a guess at 1025 but my hydrometer gives me 1016. Am I doing something wrong?


----------



## unrealeous

toadskin said:


> I got one off Ebay with the Brix and SG but how do you read the damn things. Mine just gives me blue slowly fading to white but it is impossible to pick any particular line like they show in the instructions. I took a guess at 1025 but my hydrometer gives me 1016. Am I doing something wrong?


You should be able to focus it by turning the front section (eyepiece).


----------



## [email protected]

toadskin said:


> I got one off Ebay with the Brix and SG but how do you read the damn things. Mine just gives me blue slowly fading to white but it is impossible to pick any particular line like they show in the instructions. I took a guess at 1025 but my hydrometer gives me 1016. Am I doing something wrong?




The exact same problems identified on the first page of this post. Make sure the covers fully closed.


----------



## LesSin

Bought mine and used it on my last two batches, great tool, wish I had bought it years ago. I make sure its zeroed before each reading and have tested it against my hydrometer each time, no discernable difference between the hydrometer and the refractometer.


----------



## a1149913

just to bring this back to the surface, i've noticed in beersmith 2.0 there is a section for the refractometer. I was originally put off with the complexities of FG readings but it seems that beersmith 2.0 will do the conversion from brix to sg in the presence of EtOH. 

Has anyone tested this to see if its accurate? 

JT


----------



## Wolfy

Jacob Thomas said:


> just to bring this back to the surface, i've noticed in beersmith 2.0 there is a section for the refractometer. I was originally put off with the complexities of FG readings but it seems that beersmith 2.0 will do the conversion from brix to sg in the presence of EtOH.
> 
> Has anyone tested this to see if its accurate?
> 
> JT


BeerSmith has always had such a function, its not new with the new version, so one would presume its accurate.


----------



## Gar

Just got my first Refractometer :kooi: 

I noticed on THIS website it states;

"When looking through the monocular, be sure you are using natural light to view the readings; you should not read a refractometer in the prescence of fluorescent light."

Does this really matter?

I'd like to use it after dark if possible and my shed lights are fluerescent.


----------



## Wolfy

I find when I use it with 'indoor light' (compact-fluorescents or old incandescent globes) it is not always as clear and easy to read as when daylight/sunshine is used, but it still seems to work fine. However the 'problem' could have as much to do with the time of day, what is being tested and how much of a sample has been consumed than anything else.


----------



## Gar

Wolfy said:


> I find when I use it with 'indoor light' (compact-fluorescents or old incandescent globes) it is not always as clear and easy to read as when daylight/sunshine is used, but it still seems to work fine. However the 'problem' could have as much to do with the time of day, what is being tested and how much of a sample has been consumed than anything else.



Cheers, I didn't think it would make much of a difference.

Websites seem to have conflicting information on the subject... I would have tested it with a hydrometer but my hydrometer vessel has a bit of brewers droop going on (left it too close to the heat)


----------



## Muscovy_333

Hi Guys, 

I'm under the impression that you use your refractometer to get an accurate reading at high temps after sparge?
The refracts that i researched mentioned an automatic temp calibration between 10-30 degrees C.
And is 0-18brix the better choice for accuracy given i do not brew over 1.060?

Sorry to bombard with questions...but you all seem to know what your talking about!

Ta


----------



## bignath

Muscovy said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I'm under the impression that you use your refractometer to get an accurate reading at high temps after sparge?
> The refracts that i researched mentioned an automatic temp calibration between 10-30 degrees C.
> And is 0-18brix the better choice for accuracy given i do not brew over 1.060?
> 
> Sorry to bombard with questions...but you all seem to know what your talking about!
> 
> Ta



Hi Muscovy,

people use refractometers for lots of reasons. For me, i started using it because of it's minimal impact on my volume of beer. Small sample required and all that. Once i got used to it, i found it just as accurate as my hyrdo, but SO much more convenient. Love the fact i can use it at any stage IMMEDIATELY in my brewing process.
It's not easy trying to take gravity readings pre boil, or during the boil with a hydro.

If i was not an AG brewer, i probably would have stuck with my hyrdometer. It really shines as a useful tool probably more so for the AG'ers - we have pre boil, post boil, during the boil etc. readings that we like to do that other methods of beer production don't need to worry about.

I wouldn't worry about ATC, as the thermal mass of 3 drops on the prism surface that was once boiling hot, will drop in temp ridiculously fast anyway.

And lastly, i would love to have a 0-18brix refract. Mine is 0-32. Surely a 0-18 would be easier to read.


----------



## Muscovy_333

Thankyou,

Exactly what i was after. 
I'm an AG man myself and have used refractometers in my previous life.

Apologies for the silly question regarding temp...of course 3 drops will cool down quickly! 
A lot quicker than my current method of taking samples pre-boil, during and after and dumping them in the fridge to cool before hydro'ing.
0-18brix sounds like the best tool for the job.

thanks again

Musc






Big Nath said:


> Hi Muscovy,
> 
> people use refractometers for lots of reasons. For me, i started using it because of it's minimal impact on my volume of beer. Small sample required and all that. Once i got used to it, i found it just as accurate as my hyrdo, but SO much more convenient. Love the fact i can use it at any stage IMMEDIATELY in my brewing process.
> It's not easy trying to take gravity readings pre boil, or during the boil with a hydro.
> 
> If i was not an AG brewer, i probably would have stuck with my hyrdometer. It really shines as a useful tool probably more so for the AG'ers - we have pre boil, post boil, during the boil etc. readings that we like to do that other methods of beer production don't need to worry about.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about ATC, as the thermal mass of 3 drops on the prism surface that was once boiling hot, will drop in temp ridiculously fast anyway.
> 
> And lastly, i would love to have a 0-18brix refract. Mine is 0-32. Surely a 0-18 would be easier to read.


----------



## raven19

Muscovy said:


> 0-18brix sounds like the best tool for the job.



Until you make a big beer with an OG above 18 Brix...!


----------



## lukasfab

anyone got links to good priced ones


----------



## Muscovy_333

raven19 said:


> Until you make a big beer with an OG above 18 Brix...!




Have no interest in BIG beers myself so its no prob.
But if i start making wine...well thats something to consider!


----------



## ianh

lukasfab said:


> anyone got links to good priced ones



I got one similar to this Link


----------



## lukasfab

ianh said:


> I got one similar to this Link



you happy with it? easy to read?


----------



## Malted

lukasfab said:


> you happy with it? easy to read?




I got one exactly like that. It is easy enough to read the scale and can be used in the shed at night. Needs to be calibrated more often than I thought it would, easy and quick to do though.

Edit: also remember to flush out the pitpette after use and prefereably with a sterilisier solution - I have forgotten sometimes and have had things growing in the plastic pipette next time I went to use it. Sure they're cheap but I intend on using them for as long as they are serviceable


----------



## MarkBastard

I love my refrac, I'm now convinced my newest hydro has serious flaws. I was using hydros for years and always having my beers finish exactly as expected in Beer Smith.

My refrac using correction tables is now measuring beers finishing exactly as I expect them to. For example I did a wit that went from 1.048 to 1.011, which is exactly what I was expecting.

However I have a somewhat interesting question, what do you guys that don't use hydrometres do when you add fermentables after fermenting has started? I had a Dubbel OG 1.062 that I added 500ml of Candy Syrup to 5 days into fermentation. Final SG (uncorrected) was 1.034. I guess you have to somehow add the Candy Syrup to the OG to work it out? I had a go at it but I got the following, which seems too high ABV surely?

OG 1.062
Adjusted OG 1.073
Measured FG 1.034
Corrected FG 1.010

ABV: 8.3%
Apparent Attenuation: 85.7%

It was a fresh wort kit that was supposed to have OG 1.060 and have a final ABV of 7.4% with candy syrup addition.

I don't actually have Candy Syrup in Beer Smith so I used 600g table sugar as the FWK said you could use 600g table sugar which would be equivalent to 500ml Candy Syrup (can that be right? Sounds wrong to me)


----------



## ianh

Mark^Bastard said:


> I love my refrac, I'm now convinced my newest hydro has serious flaws. I was using hydros for years and always having my beers finish exactly as expected in Beer Smith.
> 
> My refrac using correction tables is now measuring beers finishing exactly as I expect them to. For example I did a wit that went from 1.048 to 1.011, which is exactly what I was expecting.
> 
> However I have a somewhat interesting question, what do you guys that don't use hydrometres do when you add fermentables after fermenting has started? I had a Dubbel OG 1.062 that I added 500ml of Candy Syrup to 5 days into fermentation. Final SG (uncorrected) was 1.034. I guess you have to somehow add the Candy Syrup to the OG to work it out? I had a go at it but I got the following, which seems too high ABV surely?
> 
> OG 1.062
> Adjusted OG 1.073
> Measured FG 1.034
> Corrected FG 1.010
> 
> ABV: 8.3%
> Apparent Attenuation: 85.7%
> 
> It was a fresh wort kit that was supposed to have OG 1.060 and have a final ABV of 7.4% with candy syrup addition.
> 
> I don't actually have Candy Syrup in Beer Smith so I used 600g table sugar as the FWK said you could use 600g table sugar which would be equivalent to 500ml Candy Syrup (can that be right? Sounds wrong to me)



No that is not correct the amount of sugar would be less than 500g. Sugar has a potential of 1.046 and candi sugar 1.036 also would need to take gravity/SG into account.

Edit just checked candi syrup potential 1.029


----------



## Cocko

TLTR the last 9 pages... did scan.

Question:

When buying a refractometer, yes it will be on eBay unless convinced otherwise, are the 'suger/wine/beer' ones any different to the 'salinity' for marine use? as opposed to 'Body fluids' one? Or is SG simply SG?


----------



## Aces High

Cocko said:


> TLTR the last 9 pages... did scan.
> 
> Question:
> 
> When buying a refractometer, yes it will be on eBay unless convinced otherwise, are the 'suger/wine/beer' ones any different to the 'salinity' for marine use? as opposed to 'Body fluids' one? Or is SG simply SG?


The main difference from what i understand is the actual range at which they read. If you get one in the beer wort range it will be a lot easier to get an accurate reading than one for salinty which may have a wider scale
I just recieved this one the other day, pretty good value for money and it seems accurate http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230923820996


----------



## benno1973

Cocko - not 100% sure, but I would assume that they are different because...

1. The refractive index of sugar and the refractive index of salinity are different, so they would be printed with different scales on them to reflect this. You can create a conversion chart if you can be bothered making up solutions of known gravities, but it's just far easier to buy the beer/wine refrac in the first place.

2. Seeing the number of ads on ebay that specifically state 'wort refractometer' or 'salinity refractometer' I would only assume that they must be different, or all those sellers would be trying to flog them to the widest market possible and advertising them as 'wort/salinity/urine/sperm refractometer'.

My suggestion is to get one with ATC - much handier for doing readings on the fly as you're sparging and so on.


----------



## spog

Kaiser Soze said:


> Cocko - not 100% sure, but I would assume that they are different because...
> 
> 1. The refractive index of sugar and the refractive index of salinity are different, so they would be printed with different scales on them to reflect this. You can create a conversion chart if you can be bothered making up solutions of known gravities, but it's just far easier to buy the beer/wine refrac in the first place.
> 
> 2. Seeing the number of ads on ebay that specifically state 'wort refractometer' or 'salinity refractometer' I would only assume that they must be different, or all those sellers would be trying to flog them to the widest market possible and advertising them as 'wort/salinity/urine/sperm refractometer'.
> 
> My suggestion is to get one with ATC - much handier for doing readings on the fly as you're sparging and so on.


 :icon_offtopic: sperm on a refractometer?,i have heard of brew porn but.. whoa! sorry could'nt resist. ...cheers...spog...


----------



## Cocko

spog said:


> :icon_offtopic: sperm on a refractometer?,i have heard of brew porn but.. whoa! sorry could'nt resist. ...cheers...spog...


----------



## Bribie G

I find it's convenient to lick mine clean after use so I can also get a taste of the sample for evaluation of its quality.


Also the refractometer.


Erm why did this thread get necroed?


----------



## jammer

I thought everyone had sg readings on it, like mine....
Sounds like a world of hassle!


----------



## spog

Bribie G said:


> I find it's convenient to lick mine clean after use so I can also get a taste of the sample for evaluation of its quality.
> 
> 
> Also the refractometer.
> 
> 
> Erm why did this thread get necroed?


 :lol: :lol: :lol: ....cheers...spog..


----------



## tanukibrewer

Can't live without my refractometer


----------



## Endo

tanukibrewer said:


> SG.JPG
> Can't live without my refractometer


If my ebay special was anywhere near as clear as that I may have kept it.. Mine was Dark blue and blue... Was hard to get a decent, accurate reading...

So I went all out and got a nice digital one 






So much easier to use, and it does temperature compensation for you as well.


----------



## pk.sax

How much did that bad boy set you back?


----------



## Endo

practicalfool said:


> How much did that bad boy set you back?


 $217. Could have gotten it cheaper from the states but was brewing the next day.


The distributor is right around the corner from my place so picked it up on the way home.

http://www.milwaukeemeters.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=73

Price on the site doesnt inc GST


----------



## Blackened

Endo said:


> $217. Could have gotten it cheaper from the states but was brewing the next day.
> 
> 
> The distributor is right around the corner from my place so picked it up on the way home.
> 
> http://www.milwaukeemeters.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=73
> 
> Price on the site doesnt inc GST


Noice!! One of the dissolved oxy meters would be handy for wort aeration too. A TDS sensor to automate recirculation before applying heat.... just need to win the lotto and I'll be set!! 

Next time I drop one of my hydrometers I think I'll be upgrading.


----------



## slash22000

85% brix? What are they trying to measure, the gravity of pure sugar?


----------



## Endo

Blackened said:


> Noice!! One of the dissolved oxy meters would be handy for wort aeration too. A TDS sensor to automate recirculation before applying heat.... just need to win the lotto and I'll be set!!
> 
> Next time I drop one of my hydrometers I think I'll be upgrading.


You forgot a digital PH meter... 




slash22000 said:


> 85% brix? What are they trying to measure, the gravity of pure sugar?


Maybe Brewdog own one to measure Sink the Bismark? :chug:


----------



## Blackened

Endo said:


> You forgot a digital PH meter...


Got one already, but it's been in storage for ages so I'll probably need a new probe. Didn't use it that much actually, and I've got PH strips so I might use them until I run out, assuming they don't have a used by or anything..


----------



## 431neb

Anyone recommend a cheap ebay one that is usable ? ie not like this... "If my ebay special was anywhere near as clear as that I may have kept it.. Mine was Dark blue and blue... Was hard to get a decent, accurate reading..."

Don't want to spend over $50 but don't want to waste my cash either. So... any recommendations?


----------



## rileyhall00

431neb said:


> Anyone recommend a cheap ebay one that is usable ? ie not like this... "If my ebay special was anywhere near as clear as that I may have kept it.. Mine was Dark blue and blue... Was hard to get a decent, accurate reading..."
> 
> Don't want to spend over $50 but don't want to waste my cash either. So... any recommendations?


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/181119935002?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

I got this 2weeks ago... $50, free postage. Postage took 2-3days from memory. It's really good. You calibrate vs water when it arrives, mine was fairly accurate. I was doing a comparison with my hydrometer but found the refractometer reading the same so I'm just using my refractometer. I work in a lab and had access to our solutions we validate our hydrometers with and the refractometer matched up really well.

Comes with its own case, cleaning cloth, pipette, instructions/manual. 

Well worth the $50..!!!!


----------



## 431neb

Thanks Rileyhall00. So it's easy to read? Some have complained that they are hard to read. I'm going to keg king today so I'll see if they have one and compare.

Thanks, I was beginning to wonder if I would get a response.


----------



## rileyhall00

431neb said:


> Thanks Rileyhall00. So it's easy to read? Some have complained that they are hard to read. I'm going to keg king today so I'll see if they have one and compare.
> 
> Thanks, I was beginning to wonder if I would get a response.


I find it very easy to read. I was doing readings at work and also using out digital Denisty meter and I was accurate.
Also it has a scope you can adjust to read it as well, I haven't played with this much as i don't have an issue reading.

Maybe have a go at keg king if you can,


----------



## 431neb

Thanks Riley, I got one at KK for about $50 from memory. Easy enough to read once it's focused correctly. Will use over the weekend. Thanks for your assistance.


----------



## brad81

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/0-32-Brix-Wort-SG-Refractometer-Sugar-Wine-Beer-Fruit-/390611879833?pt=AU_Barware&hash=item5af2484799&_uhb=1

About $30 delivered.


----------



## pk.sax

I've been hanging for a Brix only meter for a while and recently took the plunge and ordered one from aliexpress. About 25 bux for a 0-20 Brix model, nice large graduations. eBay listings were ~70-90 dollars each. Will update when I get it. Comes with case etc just like one of the above ones.

CBF posting link from phone but search aliexpress for "0-20 Brix ATC".


----------



## Khellendros13

Got this for $47 recently, and it is so easy to read. White on blue. Used it about 10 times yesterday. I feel like tossing my hydrometer...

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=1135


----------



## woodwormm

my 33 buck ebay one rocks (only had it a week so still in love)

question... it says calibrate with distilled water, none in our house, so I used boiled water. is this ok? I also noticed starsan had the same SG as boiled water.. is Starsan ok to calibrate with?


----------



## zeggie

I calibrated my ~$30 ebay refractometer with regular tap water. Converting brix I get the same reading as my coopers hydrometer (which is probably barely accurate). Good enough for me.

Otherwise boil water in a pot with lid, and use a few drips of condensation from the lid.


----------



## pyrosx

I find it easiest to recalibrate it every time I use it - it only takes a few seconds with the little screwdriver, and it varies HEAPS with temperature.

I calibrate with plain water from a cup - then use that same water to cool the sample wort in the pippette.... then you get a calibrated AND temperature adjusted reading.


----------



## Black Devil Dog

I'm not sure what's going on with my refractometer. I take a reading in my hydrometer with demineralised water, 1.000.

Draw off a sample and the reading in my refractometer is also 1.000. So far so good.

Take a sample from my batch that has been going for 10 days. Hydrometer reading, 1.010. Draw a sample off that for the refractometer and it reads 1.020.


----------



## Endo

Black Devil Dog said:


> Take a sample from my batch that has been going for 10 days. Hydrometer reading, 1.010. Draw a sample off that for the refractometer and it reads 1.020.


Could be the temperature of the sample?


----------



## QldKev

Black Devil Dog said:


> I'm not sure what's going on with my refractometer. I take a reading in my hydrometer with demineralised water, 1.000.
> 
> Draw off a sample and the reading in my refractometer is also 1.000. So far so good.
> 
> Take a sample from my batch that has been going for 10 days. Hydrometer reading, 1.010. Draw a sample off that for the refractometer and it reads 1.020.


To use a refractometer after the ferment has begun you need to apply an alcohol correction. Search for "refractomoter alcohol correction" and you will find charts and calculators. Also most brewing software has a calc built in. You need to know the starting gravity.


----------



## NewtownClown

Black Devil Dog said:


> I'm not sure what's going on with my refractometer. I take a reading in my hydrometer with demineralised water, 1.000.
> 
> Draw off a sample and the reading in my refractometer is also 1.000. So far so good.
> 
> Take a sample from my batch that has been going for 10 days. Hydrometer reading, 1.010. Draw a sample off that for the refractometer and it reads 1.020.


 Fermenting or fermented wort gives an incorrect reading due to the presence of alcohol.
There are complicated calculations that account for this to give a true result.
Beersmith has a tool for determining the correct reading

EDIT: what Kev said


----------



## Black Devil Dog

Thanks for that, I'll have a bit of a play around with it after work.


----------



## Endo

QldKev said:


> To use a refractometer after the ferment has begun you need to apply an alcohol correction. Search for "refractomoter alcohol correction" and you will find charts and calculators. Also most brewing software has a calc built in. You need to know the starting gravity.


Argh why didnt i think of that... Oh I answered a question before caffeine kicked in. :blush:

http://onebeer.net/refractometer.shtml is the calculator I use.


----------



## warra48

This one works for me.
Gets me to no more than one point different to a check with my hydrometer, at worst. At best it's the same. I now just use the refractometer.


Edit: I no longer know the source of this, so can't acknowledge it, unfortunately.


----------



## WildWill

Just done my first brew day with refractometer at hand. How freaking easy! Mine left no guess work
Haven't used it during fermentation though.


----------



## OneEye

Put down a RIS yesterday and was having some crazy discrepancies with my refract and hyrdo samples. I've calibrated the 2 with distilled water and they've been agreeable on all previous brews. In the end my hydro sample read 1.090 and the refract was 1.080. Does the black as night wort make a difference to the refract?


----------



## Foster

Endo said:


> Argh why didnt i think of that... Oh I answered a question before caffeine kicked in. :blush:
> 
> http://onebeer.net/refractometer.shtml is the calculator I use.


I just used this calculator......

OG = 1.095 = 22.5 Brix

The brew has been in the primary for 8days. Today i took a sample & it was 10 Brix on the refrac. I punched the info into the onebeer calc & it said the new SG is 1.006. A hydrometer reading is 1.026. Where is the difference coming from?


----------



## MastersBrewery

alcohol is the simple answer there are converters to allow for this


----------



## Foster

Yeah but is'nt the calculator supposed to take care of that??


----------



## verysupple

Foster said:


> Yeah but is'nt the calculator supposed to take care of that??


Yes, that calculator should take care of the alcohol issue. Although I haven't delved into it too deeply so I'm not sure how accurate this calculator is. With your info, this calculator gives FG = 1.009, but this one gives 1.006 again. So I'm not sure which one to believe. 

EDIT: Also. if alcohol was the answer, wouldn't the brix reading be too high, not too low?


----------



## verysupple

Maybe there are CO2 bubbles clinging to your hydrometer and causing the reading to be too high. Although, in my experience that only changes it by a couple of points, not 20.

Are you sure your hydrometer is calibrated correctly? Also, what temp was the sample when you measured it. That makes a bigger difference than the CO2 thing.


----------



## Foster

Im positive the sample had no bubbles in it. The sample temp was 20deg, & yeah the hydrometer is calibrated. I will take another sample later.....


----------



## TheWiggman

Foster said:


> Im positive the sample had no bubbles in it. The sample temp was 20deg, & yeah the hydrometer is calibrated. I will take another sample later.....


10 brix = 1.040.
Referring to the chart warra48 posted, if you estimate a line further left for an OG of 1.095, 1.040 would cross somewhere around 1.010.

Refer here for a chart suitable for your brew.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/image/7989-refractometer-sg-alcohol-correction-chart-for-og-range-1070-to-1120/

Result of around 1.006. That's extreme attentuation, I'd be double-checking your refractometer reading. Hydrometers rarely lie unless the temp of your liquid is well outside 20°C.


----------



## Foster

TheWiggman said:


> 10 brix = 1.040.
> Referring to the chart warra48 posted, if you estimate a line further left for an OG of 1.095, 1.040 would cross somewhere around 1.010.
> 
> Refer here for a chart suitable for your brew.
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/image/7989-refractometer-sg-alcohol-correction-chart-for-og-range-1070-to-1120/
> 
> Result of around 1.006. That's extreme attentuation, I'd be double-checking your refractometer reading. Hydrometers rarely lie unless the temp of your liquid is well outside 20°C.


Thx Wiggman.

I just took another reading - 24 hrs after the previous.

Refrac = 12 Brix

Hydrometer = 1.022

The calculator shows 1.019.

like you i believe the hydrometer. The calculator is alot closer today..Not sure why, all conditions are the same...


----------



## shaunous

How do yáll take a sample from the fermenter before you throw the yeast in to get your OG? 

I've been teaching a mate home brewing and doing partials/extracts, I jumped straight from K&K to All-Grain so I missed this step. With all grain you just sample from the kettle with a refract or hydrometer and u can always get a clean mixed sample.

The last 2 brews I've done with my mate I couldn't get a proper reading, so they have hit the fermenting fridge without a recorded OG

e.g., brewed an extract IPA this arvo with him, if u use the pipet to draw off a coupla drops from the top of the fermenter (im using cubes to ferment, so its a small hole and u have to hold them on an angle to reach the wort with the pipet (I have shaken to mix)), I get a really low reading, both recently have been around 1.020, when clearly the IPA was dark and malty and should have been around 1.065, and Tuesdays brew should have at least been around the 1.038 mark. I then also drew off from the tap at the bottom of the cube, with visually a bit of hops material in, I got a reading of 1.084..

Fuked if I know, I coulda stuffed around shaking the cube and letting it settle a while then drawing of a sample, and I know its bad practise not recording an OG, but it was annoying after about 6-7 goes, so off it went into the ferm fridge.

The Refrac was then checked with clean 20*c water after both fuk arounds and read correctly.

Pretty hard to teach a mate good practise when this annoying crap happens.

Im putting it down to the wort not mixed all up properly and left a while for the solids to settle before drawing off a sample, but surely there is an easier way for the guys doing extract/partials.


----------



## shaunous

Maybe a wine theif would fix this problem so im drawing off wort from the centre of the cube, but then I don't wanna buy one just for training purposes.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## pk.sax

Errrrr..... Are you boiling that wort?

If not, use the standard kit advice of dissolving the malt extract into warm or hot water before you add to the cold water to get to pitching temp. I mean, coopers say to sit their can in hot water to make it easier to dissolve - just common sense.


----------



## shaunous

I'm not asking how to get wort into a cube PF, and if that's not what you thought, well I'm fuked as to what your post means.

Or maybe we're both drunk.



P.s. I'm boiling part of the wort, yes. But you cannot take a sample of that as it becomes thinned out by water when u top up in the fermenter.


----------



## pk.sax

Ah right... So you are boiling the extract with water and then diluting it out. Surprised if isn't mixing then, esp in a cube n shake....

Or are you adding still more extract cold into the cube? Suggest you add any extract dissolved in hot water to make sure it dissolves quickly when you mix it into the cold water. I dunno, that's all I can think of. No, not telling you how to get wort into cube, just about first adding extract to hot water in whatever way before you add it to the colder water to make up volume.


----------



## CrookedFingers

Could you whack a tap on the cube ?
then you could just pour it.

Ooops, just re-read your longer post Shaunous, you do have a tap on it.


----------



## TheWiggman

shaunous said:


> How do yáll take a sample from the fermenter before you throw the yeast in to get your OG?


For kit stuff - not that I do it any more - I didn't take an OG. I just read what's on the tin and know it'll be around 4.5% or whatever.

Personally, I take a reading using a refractometer after the boil for completeness's sake. Everything is well mixed up by then. It tends to be slightly lower than the hydrometer reading and I blame this on the temperature, even though I try to let it cool.

Once IN the fermeter, I add the yeast. Seal, then wait 12-24h until lag phase has mostly set in, and take a sample from the tap into the hydrometer tube. From then onwards I keep the sample in the tube and monitor it, and the refractometer stays in the cupboard.


----------



## shaunous

Yeh Fuks me PF, I'll check the gravity this morning once all the hop material has had time to settle, even though it's bout 12hrs after I threw the yeast in it shouldn't have changed much. 

Didn't matter what I did, drawing a bit off the top inch gave me an OG way to low, then drawing from the tap in the bottom of the cube (with clearly small amounts of hop material visible) gave me one to damn high. I couldn't get a happy medium. Not that I tried and tried, I got the shits and threw the yeast in.


----------



## shaunous

TheWiggman said:


> For kit stuff - not that I do it any more - I didn't take an OG. I just read what's on the tin and know it'll be around 4.5% or whatever.
> 
> Personally, I take a reading using a refractometer after the boil for completeness's sake. Everything is well mixed up by then. It tends to be slightly lower than the hydrometer reading and I blame this on the temperature, even though I try to let it cool.
> 
> Once IN the fermeter, I add the yeast. Seal, then wait 12-24h until lag phase has mostly set in, and take a sample from the tap into the hydrometer tube. From then onwards I keep the sample in the tube and monitor it, and the refractometer stays in the cupboard.


So you do a mini ferment in the hydro tube?



> Once IN the fermeter, I add the yeast. Seal, then wait 12-24h until lag phase has mostly set in, and take a sample from the tap into the hydrometer tube.





> I'll check the gravity this morning once all the hop material has had time to settle, even though it's bout 12hrs after I threw the yeast in it shouldn't have changed much.


----------



## TheWiggman

Mini-fermet yes. I keep it near the fermeter so the conditions are the same (excluding wild yeasts) so it's a good approximation of where it's up to. The tightarse in me says 'DON'T TAKE ANY MORE UNNECESSARY SAMPLES AS THAT COULD BE BEER ONE DAY'. Or lawn food, depending on God's mood.
Oh and for reference, I've never seen a difference in gravity in the first 24h except for a 3068. There's a party going on in every fermenter when this yeast's used.

I can't for the life of me work out the difference in densities between the top and the bottom of a cube you're facing. Maybe God's at play here as well? If there is a separation in fluids then the heavy stuff will settle to the bottom, but if you mixed it well this really shouldn't happen. But evidently... it has.


----------



## shaunous

Well after checking the 2 brews I had going, one only got yeast last night, the other had been fermenting for a week, I have correct and realistic Gravity readings.

So morale to my story, take OG readings when doing Partials/Extracts after a day or less in the fermenter.


----------



## Dazzbrew

Gar said:


> Just got my first Refractometer :kooi:
> 
> I noticed on THIS website it states;
> 
> "When looking through the monocular, be sure you are using natural light to view the readings; you should not read a refractometer in the prescence of fluorescent light."
> 
> Does this really matter?
> 
> I'd like to use it after dark if possible and my shed lights are fluerescent.


I would like an answer on this too.
I do my brewing at night, on my back verandah and the only light is my censor light which has 2 globes which I think may be Halogen.
Would this light give a different reading to natural uv light? possibly due to differences In wave length?


----------



## Mr B

I brewed and checked yesterday, no difference between sunlight and fluorescent light. Sunlight was a bit brighter though.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Yep I've brewed day and night and haven't found anything funny with reading by lights


----------



## Dazzbrew

Good to know thanks


----------



## Ditchnbeer

I've really got to thank Brewer Pete here.
I have been really unhappy with using my refractometer lately, and today, while watching the Superbowl, I thought I would learn something by reading thru (almost) all the pages about refractometer on the AHB. And I struck gold by Brewer Pete's posts on using & calibrating. I followed his advice and before I knew it my refractometer was reading a SG I was targeting! So here is what I learnt:
- Keep the glass pristine clean; wash with water then wipe clean with good quality cloth before use. Maybe mine had been streaky??
- Calibrate to zero with fresh water at ~20 degrees
- Mix 60gms of sugar with 470mls of water and shake until sugar disolved.
- Refractometer shoud read 1043 (11.04 Brix) or within range of 1041 - 1046 ( 10.6 - 11.8 Brix).
I owe you a beer Brewer Pete!


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## fraser_john

Dazzbrew said:


> I would like an answer on this too.
> I do my brewing at night, on my back verandah and the only light is my censor light which has 2 globes which I think may be Halogen.
> Would this light give a different reading to natural uv light? possibly due to differences In wave length?


They recommend natural sunlight because the light rays from the sun are parallel to each other, non-natural light such as flouros etc have light rays that don't run parallel and can result in a not quite as clear line. Try a reading on a cloudy day and you will note that the line is not a perfect split between blue and white, but it will be a fuzzy have a guess where it is kind of union between the two.


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## TheWiggman

Sure about that Fraser_john? Natural light should be random. If it was polarised like you say then when wearing polarised sunnies, tiling your head 90° would block out all light.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

It's because it gets refracted through clouds isn't it ? Also you'd be getting other light bouncing off other objects, not pure sunlight no matter how clear the sky was.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Brewer Pete said:


> You may have a non-temperature compensating refractometer so you have to adjust the results on every reading.
> 
> Or are you doing readings during fermentation with alcohol in the sample drops? That will skew the results as well and needs corrections applied.
> 
> I primarily got mine for #1 Mead, #2 Cider. I have not applied it *yet* to brewing beer.
> 
> I actually now have to get a really damn good/accurate hydrometer so I can cross-compare calibration issues and results.
> 
> 
> Hydrometer:
> + : Dunk it in an take a reading
> + : Good for final readings with alcohol
> - : Needs temperature corrections
> - : Large sample size not good for small batch brewing (which is done outside of the realm of beer)
> - : Very fragile, costs add up when you keep buying decent hydrometers over and over again
> 
> Refractometer:
> + : Only two liquid drops sample size
> + : Good for original readings in a portable environment (in the vineyard, next to a fruiting tree, etc.)
> + : Rather rugged, especially compared to a hydrometer, but of course within limits
> - : Needs temperature corrections if you didn't buy an automatic correcting one
> - : Needs corrections if you have alcohol in the sample
> but all corrections taken care for you by This Website: Homebrew Recractometer Calculations
> 
> 
> Use both is my philosophy. Both in the areas where their particular strong suits shine through.



Anyone got a new link to the above correction calculators?


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## TheWiggman

This site - https://www.polarization.com/sky/sky.html - states pretty clearly that sunlight is polarised, and actually notes what I said (that when you tilt your head light is blocked out). The rays however switch from vertical to horizontal depending on the position of the sun.


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## fraser_john

TheWiggman said:


> Sure about that Fraser_john? Natural light should be random. If it was polarised like you say then when wearing polarised sunnies, tiling your head 90° would block out all light.


I never said it was polarised, that is different to being parallel in direction of travel. Probably would have helped to have more info  

Polarisation cuts out the "axis" of a wave so assume two sine waves coming towards you all you really would "see" is a + one wave horizontal, one wave vertical, polarisation blocks one axis, so you would only see - or | depending on which one the polarisation blocked. But, when the two waves are travelling towards you , they are perfectly parallel to each other.


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## TheWiggman

That does make them polarised though. If all light runs parallel it is polarised, regardless of whether it was filtered with a polarisation filter. By definition, "Polarised light waves are light waves in which the vibrations occur in a single plane" - exactly as you're (correctly) suggesting.

Ed: thought I'd add this word: semantics 
What you've raised explains why refractometers perform better in natural light.


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## Topher

Where does one get a good refracto? 

LHBS carries the keg king ones ......but couldn't offer much feedback and gave me the usual keg king caveat. Cant see much difference between them all.

I dont want to spend heaps....but do not want to buy a POS.


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## welly2

I've got a keg king one and one I bought from eBay ages back. They're both pretty much identical in their measurements and they've been pretty much spot on compared with my hydrometer.


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## buckerooni

just got one of these, while not essential I can see myself using it every brew, which makes it very useful, especially for my first double batch where I was splitting between cubes and topping up with water.


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## Keg King

Topher said:


> Where does one get a good refracto?


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## Keg King

Topher said:


> Where does one get a good refracto?
> 
> LHBS carries the keg king ones ......but couldn't offer much feedback and gave me the usual keg king caveat. Cant see much difference between them all.
> 
> I dont want to spend heaps....but do not want to buy a POS.


Hi Topher,

A refractometer is pretty much a refractometer and the more expensive ones tend to be over specified for home use. Provided you use it in the correct manner, you should get very accurate results from a less expensive refractometer. ATC is a handy feature but it is important to note the ATC range and ensure the refractometer is used within these limits. ATC is to do with the temperature of the refractometer as the temperature of the small sample used will equalise virtually instantly with the refractometer.

Another feature is the manual calibration. This should be done when first using the refractometer and then periodically after that.

Once alcohol is preset in the sample (so for fermentation samples) a refractometer can still be used but the readings have to be corrected used a correction table or software such as Beer Smith.

Cheers!


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## Topher

Roger Dan, 
Thanks for the info! I reckon ill pick up one tomorrow and give it a try on this weeekends brew! 

Now, when can you guys make and sell me an unbreakable hydrometer?

Edit: .........or a bulk deal for the perpetually clumsy like me?


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## Endo

Topher said:


> Where does one get a good refracto?
> 
> LHBS carries the keg king ones ......but couldn't offer much feedback and gave me the usual keg king caveat. Cant see much difference between them all.
> 
> I dont want to spend heaps....but do not want to buy a POS.


I have one of these: http://www.milwaukeeinst.com/site/products/products/digital-refractometers/165-products-g-digital-refractometers-g-ma871

But... It fails your spend heaps criteria. I like it because i hated looking through the other type. And i like shiny toys.

Oh and when you need more pippettes... Ebay from china.. I think i paid something silly like 5 bucks for a 100 or was it 1000... lots!


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## nosco

tanukibrewer said:


> SG.JPG
> Can't live without my refractometer


So do you only use the brix reading tanukibrewer? I have one with both reading but the SG compared to my hydro is always way off so I stopped using it after a few times.

edit: i don't know how I got a quote from 2013


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## Danscraftbeer

I had a cheap one. It worked well as I can see. did the test comparisons with hydrometers etc. The Good quality ones should also have both Brix and Gravity scale. Refractometer was good for learning all grain brewing to know everything is working in sugars. I broke my cheapo but I can do without it now. I know my process works. Its no real advantage but I still want a new one, a good one that has both scales.


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## Keg King

Topher said:


> Roger Dan,
> Thanks for the info! I reckon ill pick up one tomorrow and give it a try on this weeekends brew!
> 
> Now, when can you guys make and sell me an unbreakable hydrometer?
> 
> Edit: .........or a bulk deal for the perpetually clumsy like me?


Well if they were unbreakable I would have to get out of the hydrometer game haha.

Also, FYI they come in handy boxes of 10 haha!


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## idzy

Anyone know where to get a Refracto that measures in SG above 1.13?


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## HBHB

idzy said:


> Anyone know where to get a Refracto that measures in SG above 1.13?


You'd need a honey refractometer for that type of reading range I reckon.


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## idzy

HBHB said:


> You'd need a honey refractometer for that type of reading range I reckon.


Yeah, can't seem to find one that is SG. All in BRIX.


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## Tex N Oz

I think it's more important to get an accurate refractometer than worry about having a SG chart.

Had a cheap one and wasn't too impressed with the optics or the clarity of the chart/line.

Here's my Atago N-1E and I love it.

Real glass prism and certified calibration. Crystal clear optics.


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## Mardoo

idzy said:


> Yeah, can't seem to find one that is SG. All in BRIX.


Mine has SG and Brix and goes to 1.140, but yeah, as HBHB said above that you're looking at honey refractometers.


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## danestead

SG from Brix is just a simple calculation (well it's all a bit of a guess as Brix is a measure of sucrose in a solution rather than maltose like most of our beer is made up of).

It would be simple to print a Brix/Plato/SG chart which you can find by googling and put it in your brew area.


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## Tex N Oz

I think it's all a bit hit and miss throughout when you get down to the finite nitty gritty..
Even with a hydrometer it can't tell the difference between salts, proteins, other solids or solutions and sugars. To further insult, it doesn't tell you what's fermentable.
Then the final gravity doesn't take into consideration anything that's dropped out of the mixture or precipitated out of solution.

If you really want to know exactly what your ABV is then you have to do a thin-film vacuum fractional distillation and send it through a HPLC for absolute analysis.
I don't know for sure but I've hearsay that the only recognised method for excise tax calculation is a calibrated hydrometer.

But this site will get your refract close enough for just about any home-brewer. 

http://seanterrill.com/2010/06/11/refractometer-estimates-of-final-gravity/

A site well worth surfing. This man's put a lot of empirical data into his corrected calculations. Again, not real sure but it's probably accurate to +/- .1% ABV


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## idzy

So anyways back on point...anyone recommend where I can get a honey reflactometer with SG?


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## danestead

idzy said:


> So anyways back on point...anyone recommend where I can get a honey reflactometer with SG?


Buy one with Brix and convert it. If it has SG on it already, it's probably not correct. To have an accurate conversion between what a sucrose refractometer tests and SG, you will need to calibrate it by using your hydrometer as well.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/2013/04/24/using-your-refractometer-correctly-for-maximum-accuracy-in-home-brewing/

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/11/02/how-to-use-a-refractometer-brix-and-beer-brewing/


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## GalBrew

Even if you can get a refractometer with SG, I would still use the Brix reading. My cheapie is accurate when I use Beersmith to convert the Brix reading into SG. The SG reading on the refractometer is quite a bit out.


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## idzy

So can anyone recommend where to buy one?


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## MHB

I would just use a volumetric flask and scales.
The size of the flask should be matched to your scales accuracy but a 1L Class A vol flask isn't expensive and if you have scales that work to 0.1g, well we are talking fairly precise (+/- 0.0001 SG) and you could read the output directly in SG if you can set the scales to Kg mode.
No need to go as far as using a pycnometer bottle, unless you had 3 or more (0.001g) decimal place scales but you could if you need that sort of precision.



Mark


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## Tex N Oz

idzy said:


> So can anyone recommend where to buy one?



http://www.atago.net/product/?l=en&k=ADZ61774


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## Mardoo

How much extra is the Magic? That's one of the most unintentionally funny ads I've seen. Looks interesting. What's the upper measurement limit?


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## Mardoo

This is made by the same folks who made mine. It goes to 11.

1.180 that is. I've been very happy with mine. It's much more solidly built than most of the ones I've seen, and the conversion scale is spot on. 

http://m.ebay.com/itm/BREWx-BREWfractometer-Extreme-0-40-Brix-Wort-SG-Beer-Refractometer-Sugar-/221149124131


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## Tex N Oz

Mardoo said:


> How much extra is the Magic? That's one of the most unintentionally funny ads I've seen. Looks interesting. What's the upper measurement limit?


I think the Magic is free with the chi.

I also believe it measures from:

Sum Yuk or 0°

to

Wai Fuk Yum or 9.9°


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## Endo

Tex N Oz said:


> http://www.atago.net/product/?l=en&k=ADZ61774


Chinese soup noodle refractometer... They must be takin the piss lol




Mardoo said:


> How much extra is the Magic? That's one of the most unintentionally funny ads I've seen. Looks interesting. What's the upper measurement limit?


 It says 53% brix, so if you look at the ebay link you posted... that goes to 1.180 SG or 40% brix... so quite a bit higher  (Aren't i usefull!  )

If you want to even more silly, mine goes to 85% brix and i got it from Pacific sensor tech in Rowville... Who are the agents for Milwaukee meters.... I didnt think i paid that much for it though http://www.milwaukeemeters.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=73 at least I hope I didnt :O 

Better hide this post from the boss... :wacko:


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## Endo

This might also help.. might be able to google the model numbers:

http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/monju/item/sk-sk-201r/

Looks like they have bunch of different measurements...

So turns out measuring soup IS a thing.... I'll be buggered :blink:


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## Tex N Oz

Endo said:


> This might also help.. might be able to google the model numbers:
> 
> http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/monju/item/sk-sk-201r/
> 
> Looks like they have bunch of different measurements...
> 
> So turns out measuring soup IS a thing.... I'll be buggered :blink:


AND it comes in hot pink!!!


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## Endo

Tex N Oz said:


> AND it comes in hot pink!!!


Its so purdy!


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## Tex N Oz

Well there's the model SK-201R which is just for noodle soup and there's a SK-202R for ramen soup.
These Chinese are on their damned game when it comes to their soup!!! 

YOU NO ADD WHOLE PACKET!! YOU **** UP SOUP!!!! as he whips out the "correct, yet stylish" soup refractometer and adds just the right amount of salty flavour packet to his 2 minute noodles....


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## Endo

Tex N Oz said:


> YOU NO ADD WHOLE PACKET!! YOU **** UP SOUP!!!! as he whips out the "correct, yet stylish" soup refractometer and adds just the right amount of salty flavour packet to his 2 minute noodles....


Masterchef China right there


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## peteru

I inherited this refractometer. It's American Optical Company, Cat . 10423. No instructions. It appears a bit dirty inside. Any tips on how to care for it? If I try to open it to clean it, am I likely to throw out the calibration and make it useless? So far the four or five measurements I have taken with it agree with the hydrometer, so it works.


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## DrewCarey82

newguy said:


> It is worth the effort considering all the hydrometers I've broken. When I broke the last one I finally bought a refractometer and have been kicking myself ever since for not buying it sooner. I don't have a hydrometer anymore and I don't want one either. I'm happy with my refractometer, and it's a simple matter of plugging the OG and current (finished) brix reading into this online worksheet to come up with the FG. Easy.



old post but after my 5th hydrometre in 20 brews have brought one anyone done worse than me lol


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## HamoAus

DrewCarey82 said:


> old post but after my 5th hydrometre in 20 brews have brought one anyone done worse than me lol


No quite as bad. I got to about 4 in something ridiculous before I bought one.


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## menoetes

I only broke two before SWMBO bought me a refractometer for my birthday... she loves me apparently.


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## KegLand-com-au

Tex N Oz said:


> I think it's more important to get an accurate refractometer than worry about having a SG chart.
> 
> Had a cheap one and wasn't too impressed with the optics or the clarity of the chart/line.
> 
> Here's my Atago N-1E and I love it.
> 
> Real glass prism and certified calibration. Crystal clear optics.
> 
> View attachment 83262
> 
> 
> View attachment 83263




If you want crystal clear optics then you might consider the LED ones like this:

https://www.kegland.com.au/portable-refractometer-with-atc-led-light.html

The price is similar and the LED definitely helps if you dont have perfect illumination. These also have a glass prism.


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## altone

KegLand-com-au said:


> If you want crystal clear optics then you might consider the LED ones like this:
> 
> ... These also have a glass prism.


Actually I think the glass prism is a better selling point than the LED. 
I bought a cheap evilbay one which I assume had a plastic/polymer prism and 
disliked it so much it got sent to the dumpster.
Current ones I've seen bought from brew shops seem much better.
The LED would be nice if you're brewing in low light for some reason.


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