# Aussie Brewer Disputes German Beer Law?



## clean brewer (23/4/09)

Hey all,

Just come across this on 9MSN, I really cant believe what he says about Cane Sugar in beers :angry: , all natural???

We can still make thirst quenching beers without cane sugar, why cant they?? Thats right, saving $$$ and making $$$... :unsure: 

Bloody Chuck and his love of Cane Sugar

:icon_cheers: CB 

Oh yeh, and I was recently shocked to read that Tooheys Old contained 20-30% Sugar also..


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## buttersd70 (23/4/09)

> But while Ms Pavoni pointed out that German beer contains less calories than full cream milk or grape juice, Mr Hahn said it was harder to drink Bavarian beers in large amounts _*because they are richer in flavour.*_
> 
> "With richer tasting beer you don’t drink as much," he said.



so, in reality, he is saying "Our beer isn't as good in comparison, but it's easier to drink because it's thin, watery, and has bugger all flavour, and lets face it, your average aussie swill drinker just wants to get off his face.".........mmm, the marketing writes itself. :blink:


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## jonocarroll (23/4/09)

wikipedia said:


> In the original text, the only ingredients that could be used in the production of beer were water, barley, and hops. The law also set the price of beer at 1-2 Pfennig per Ma. *The Reinheitsgebot is no longer part of German law: it has been replaced by the Provisional German Beer Law (Vorlufiges Deutsches Biergesetz (Provisional German Beer-law of 1993)), which allows constituent components prohibited in the Reinheitsgebot, such as wheat malt and  ***cane sugar****, but which no longer allows unmalted barley.


(My emphasis). Any anyway...



wikipedia said:


> The Reinheitsgebot was introduced in part to prevent price competition with bakers for wheat and rye. The restriction of grains to barley was meant to ensure the availability of sufficient amounts of affordable bread, as the more valuable wheat and rye were reserved for use by bakers. Today many Bavarian beers are again brewed using wheat and are thus no longer compliant with the Reinheitsgebot.


Next time someone tells you that they only want Reinheitsgebot beers, tell them to try paying 1-2 Pfennig per Ma for them at todays rates!!! Also, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that I can make a terrible Reinheitsgebot beer.


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## adraine (23/4/09)

buttersd70 said:


> so, in reality, he is saying "Our beer isn't as good in comparison, but it's easier to drink because it's thin, watery, and has bugger all flavour, and lets face it, your average aussie swill drinker just wants to get off his face.".........mmm, the marketing writes itself. :blink:



So true

I lived in germany for 3 years and beer is a culture and way of life over there. something that is celebrated (with lots of festivals). Beer here is expensive and ordinary IMO.

"It's more refreshing on a hot day than German beers it's brewed for our climate." = more money in my pocket cause i save money on ingerdients


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## clean brewer (23/4/09)

buttersd70 said:


> so, in reality, he is saying "Our beer isn't as good in comparison, but it's easier to drink because it's thin, watery, and has bugger all flavour, and lets face it, your average aussie swill drinker just wants to get off his face.".........mmm, the marketing writes itself. :blink:



Yes, thats right, the quicker you can smash it, the more you will buy, of course its marketing.. And they have it over alot of people that are quite "special :blink: " 

I can still hook right into my beers that dont contain any sugar.. :chug:


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## Kai (23/4/09)

clean brewer said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Just come across this on 9MSN, I really cant believe what he says about Cane Sugar in beers :angry: , all natural???
> 
> ...



What do you think of toohey's old? I still enjoy it, it sits on the reserves list when I'm at a random pub or bottlo. With regards to sugar, it's still as "natural" as rice, corn or any other non-malt adjunct. I reckon it deserves its place in beer as much as any other natural ingedient.


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## clean brewer (23/4/09)

Kai said:


> What do you think of toohey's old? I still enjoy it, it sits on the reserves list when I'm at a random pub or bottlo. With regards to sugar, it's still as "natural" as rice, corn or any other non-malt adjunct. I reckon it deserves its place in beer as much as any other natural ingedient.



Well, now if I go to a pub(in Hervey Bay), I look for Tooheys Old as all the rest crap generally.. Thats what I mean, I was shocked that it had that much sugar... I guess, but dont you think 30% is excessive??


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## Kai (23/4/09)

clean brewer said:


> Well, now if I go to a pub(in Hervey Bay), I look for Tooheys Old as all the rest crap generally.. Thats what I mean, I was shocked that it had that much sugar... I guess, but dont you think 30% is excessive??



It is a pantsload of sugar, I agree. However, drinking tooheys old is still a lot more preferable than, say, tooheys new in my book. It's still a palatable beer.


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## Weizguy (23/4/09)

clean brewer said:


> Well, now if I go to a pub(in Hervey Bay), I look for Tooheys Old as all the rest crap generally.. Thats what I mean, I was shocked that it had that much sugar... I guess, but dont you think 30% is excessive??


Unfortunately, many Oz breweries see 30% as not excessive, but as "AVERAGE".

That's how they got the body out of the beer, and keep the alcohol up.

Lack of hop character and aroma are also a defining characteristic of the Oz lager (dark or pale).

My 2 cents, my friends.
Les


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## rich_lamb (23/4/09)

Hang on, didn't Chuck just suggest that (because of it's lack of flavour, body, richness, whatever) you can consume MORE aussie beer. But in the next breath he says the alcohol content is the same.

Sooo... the intent is we drink loads more alcohol here? Chuck doesn't see any issue there I guess.


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## manticle (23/4/09)

Like most little articles, my guess is that's taken out of context.

Essentially German purity law says beer = this (malt water hops yeast) and that's it and all it will be for eternity.

Australian brewer man says " not necessarily. Other things can be added, depending on where the beer is from, what climate etc etc. Not so bad.

Sure there's some things there I disagree with but unless you hear the entire interview or know the context, it's hard to say. The belgians use all manner of wacky stuff in their beers and they get celebrated (and rightly) all over the place. Saying cane sugar is not necessarily bad is not necessarily bad.

Disclaimer: I am not in any way suggesting that ANY Australian beer competes favourably with a trappists or fine german lager or Pils, just that the apparent stupidity described and subsequent uproar stimulated, may simply be out of context, online article, typicality, rubbish.

Or something.


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## kook (23/4/09)

The reinheitsgebot is a load of crap h34r: 

It is well known that the law had nothing to do with purity, but price protection. There are many reinheitsgebot "compliant" beers out there that in my opinion are simply crap.

It killed off several great German beer styles - though some have been resurrected in recent years. Beers like Weissebiers, Berliner Weisse, Roggenbier, Gose etc were all effectively outlawed.


"But Chuck Hahn from Sydney's Malt Shovel Brewery said while the Purity Law had succeeded in ensuring German beer stayed very pure, a good beer did not need to be limited to those four main ingredients." - I could not agree more.

Put whatever you like in your beer - it's YOUR beer  If you want to stick to 4 ingredients, go for it. But you're limiting yourself from trying a range of wonderful beers out there that exist with other perfectly _natural_ ingredients.


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## Bribie G (23/4/09)

Personally I have no problem with using adjuncts such as sugar. I've just pitched an experimental brew of Australian Bulimba-style Gold Top Draught, which after the takeover became Queensland's Carlton Draught brewed in Brisbane up till the 1980s, when production was moved to Yatala. At about the same time Carlton made the huge mistake of putting Fosters on tap (failure) and withdrawing Carlton Draught as such. At that time they also started invading Queensland with VB. 

Then later they introduced Carlton Draught again with the red label. It sort of struggled for a while then went out of fashion again.

Then eventually they did another makeover "Brewery Fresh" "Made from Beer" etc and once again launched it, with far better results, as CD has now become reestablished in nearly every pub. Of course the modern CD is nothing remotely like the fairly bitter, very blonde ex-Bulimba brew we used to get in Brisbane and which IMHO beat the crapper out of XXXX at that time. 

I'd like to taste that again so have made a fairly bitter brew with Superpride, just a single BB pale Pilsener malt, a lager yeast and ...... yess cane sugar (I also snuck some rice in as it seems to give a very clean and bright beer... maybe uses up some of the haze proteins in the mash whatever)

However that's the style I'm after so that's what I'm using.
I recently did a Cerveza which has had very positive tasting comments at BABBs this evening. And it was more riced than a Nissan Sylvia B) Chappo also brought along a similar brew. Noice.

However if doing a Bavarian Bock, which remains one of my holy grails it will be reinheitsgebot all the way. Achtung.

We are lucky here that we can attempt to make good examples of styles from all over the world, including ingredients such as rice, maize, sugar etc, and although I'm just starting to explore the world of adjuncts I'm trying to use them in the way that are appropriate to the various styles be it trad. Australian lagers, Belgians with candi sugar or good old UK mild with inverted brewers sugar etc etc.


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## manticle (23/4/09)

BribieG said:


> However if doing a Bavarian Bock, which remains one of my holy grails it will be reinheitsgebot all the way. Achtung.



What about weizen eisbock?

Just remembered a lovely drop I've tried only once - aventinus.


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## Whistlingjack (23/4/09)

I might be biased.

The advantage of a set of restrictions that promote the use of all-natural ingredients in beer can't be denied. The upshot is that these restrictions, coupled with German ingenuity, have resulted in some great innovations in the brewing process.

It also makes it the best place in the world to learn brewing... 

Sure, its an archaic law that has really no power these days. There are two breweries in Germany that have been given exemptions, quoting local, pre-Reinheitsgebot tradition, and this may be considered as a softening of the restrictions.

My lecturers would often say "we know there are other ways to get good beer, so we acknowledge them" (referring to adjuncts allowable in other countries)

WJ


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## HoppingMad (24/4/09)

I love German beer don't get me wrong, but adjuncts like sugar have their place. If you've enjoyed a Belgian Beer or a Coopers you've enjoyed a beer containing sugar as an adjunct.

If you read 'Brew like a monk' it will open your eyes - most Belgian beers use a ton of sugar, effectively sticking the middle finger up at the Germans who do the opposite and not use sugar. Admittedly the Belgians don't use cane sugar for the most part - they use 'Candi sugar/syrup/invert sugar', but it's still sugar all the same. 

Coopers pale and sparkling also use cane sugar to my knowledge, not bucketloads but it's there - and they aren't bad drops IMHO. To have a recipe that has lasted as long as those have can't be half bad. 

Unfortunately Chuck has gotten it a little wrong in the article though - the German Purity Law was introduced not to make beer 'pure' but actually to stop price competition with bakers for wheat and rye that would jack up the prices, effectively restricting brewers to using barley. For more info it is confirmed here: Reinheitsgebot

Yes there are some terrible examples of Aussie beer drenched in sugar, and yup German beer is darn fine - but sugar has its place in some beer styles.

Hopper.

Edit: spelling


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## buttersd70 (24/4/09)

Coopers Pale Ale is all malt, apart from the prime, which is invert. Coopers Sparkling contains a maximum of 5% sugar as an adjunct.  

The main question I ask in relation to sugar, or for that matter, any ingredient, is "why is this used? What does it contribute? What is it's purpose? What are the follow on effects of using it?"

So, the example of sugar in belgians has been raised, and I think that's a great example. The use of sugar adjuncts in this type of beer is not one that is born of economics, or ease of production. It's in there for a very valid reason. It contributes in a beneficial way to the beer. Surely, the same can't be said of the 30% cane sugar in Australian mega lagers. Totally different ball game, that one. (same as use of sugar in a mild....why would you add sugar to a beer that needs to be mashed hot (due to the low gravity) in order to try and force body into it in the first place? Cutting your nose off despite your face on that one. :huh: )


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## alexbrand (24/4/09)

... I don't brew all my beers according the the RHG anymore.... more ingredients = more varieties.

If one of my beers follows the RHG then it's just by chance.

Alex


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## barfridge (24/4/09)

Getting into the calorie counting at the bottom of the article:

most of the calories come from the alcohol
Aussie and German beers have similar alcohol content
So therefore similar calorie count

But Aussie beer is designed so you drink more of it
Therefore Aussie beer makes you fat!

Did Dr Chuck just shoot himself in the foot?


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## manticle (24/4/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Coopers Pale Ale is all malt, apart from the prime, which is invert. Coopers Sparkling contains a maximum of 5% sugar as an adjunct.
> 
> The main question I ask in relation to sugar, or for that matter, any ingredient, is "why is this used? What does it contribute? What is it's purpose? What are the follow on effects of using it?"
> 
> So, the example of sugar in belgians has been raised, and I think that's a great example. The use of sugar adjuncts in this type of beer is not one that is born of economics, or ease of production. It's in there for a very valid reason. It contributes in a beneficial way to the beer. Surely, the same can't be said of the 30% cane sugar in Australian mega lagers. Totally different ball game, that one. (same as use of sugar in a mild....why would you add sugar to a beer that needs to be mashed hot (due to the low gravity) in order to try and force body into it in the first place? Cutting your nose off despite your face on that one. :huh: )



Essentially though, the point is that someone disagreed with the notion that all beers should be made according to the purity law/ideal (a guy from James Squire who many here seem to think make super beers). I can take or leave them but that's another thread.

Once you acknowledge that, you still (as you suggested) need to use those ingredients in a good, smart and judicious way to end up with a good product. As we all know from recent threeads, the use of hops was once controversial.

In a happy world there's a place for super wacky, break the rules Belgians and a place for ultra pure clean german lagers. I love both.

There's also a place for bland, mass produced shite as who here would still be brewing if all the readily available beers were cheap AND super tasty?

I've run circles round you logically.


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## HoppingMad (24/4/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Coopers Pale Ale is all malt, apart from the prime, which is invert. Coopers Sparkling contains a maximum of 5% sugar as an adjunct.



Haven't seen the infamous 'whiteboard photo' at the Coopers brewery reproduced in 'Amber & Black' but our own Recipe DB suggests Coopers Pale uses cane sugar too. (comment on base of recipe). 

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=483


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## buttersd70 (24/4/09)

HoppingMad said:


> Haven't seen the infamous 'whiteboard photo' at the Coopers brewery reproduced in 'Amber & Black' but our own Recipe DB suggests Coopers Pale uses cane sugar too. (comment on base of recipe).
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=483



perhaps that's whats in the DB recipe, but coopers, having, been contacted directly on the subject, responded with an email that has been posted here.


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## Zwickel (24/4/09)

Hello homebrewers,

even over here in Germany, the "Reinheitsgebot" is contentious. Fortunately we homebrewers dont need to follow that f***ing rules.

I dont care about it, but its interesting for me to see so many opinions about it.

I found a remarkable page in the internet, it seems as the author would be very much jealous about our rules, although some of hes arguments are very true:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~patto1ro/reinheit.htm

cheers :icon_cheers:


ahem....I forgot to say: I love XXXX Gold and Bitter, Queenslands No.1 beer rocks :super:


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## Thirsty Boy (24/4/09)

One of the main reasons sugar is used in mega brewed beers in Australia is exactly the same reason that is is often used in Belgian beers. To increase the alcohol content while not increasing the body or maltiness of the beer, to ensure drinkability. 

Handy that it allows better throughput and more economical brewery operations as well really.

A belgian say's - we add sugar to give the beer strength but ensure it remains drinkable. And its a revered brewing tradition.

Chuck Hahn says it and he is an evil purveyor of bad brewing.

Australia is a hot country - one where people like to drink very cold, lightly flavoured beer - in bulk. At that is 95% of the market. So thats what big breweries make.

You dont like it - I dont like it - but 95% of everyone else out there does. Who am I to tell em they are wrong. Especially when they are keeping me in a job.


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## Screwtop (24/4/09)

What is all of this Hoo Har regarding sugar, FFS German purity law forbids it, Belgians use heaps of it, it's all to do with style. Here in Australia it's use came about due to the old "if in doubt. tick cost" addage. In the 19th century malt was expensive to transport, there were small sugar refineries everywhere where cane would grow, so availability in some areas saved costs. Sugar had been used to make beer, so why not. It is a part of Australian beer styles - like them or hate them. To achieve a certain level of dryness in beer my yeast of choice needs a little help so "flame suit on" I use a little sugar to achieve the required FG "flame suit off". Other aspects of beer profile can be manipulated using water chemistry and mash shedules, don't hear anyone badmouthing water treatment or PH adjustment.

Think sugar gets a bad wrap due to it's use in the A-typical Cidery Kit beers. I used to believe that the cideryness came from the use of sugar, but soon discovered that malt age, yeast strain and fermentation temp were more to blame.


Screwy


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## blackbock (24/4/09)

I was under the impression that one of the original reasons for using adjuncts here was not to save money, but to lighten the body and allow the use of 6-row barley high in undesirable nitrogen which would otherwise produce a hazy, inferior product. 

Of course the by-product of using sugar is cheaper ingredients, personally I don't mind what they use, just as long as they don't bullshit about the superior properties of their beer vs someone else's. Chuck Hahn sounds like a real w*nker.


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## 3G (24/4/09)

Brewing would be boring and limited without adjuncts.


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## petesbrew (24/4/09)

The germans have got it half right, aussie megaswill beers are crap compared to theirs.
I mean I'd much rather grab a $40 slab of german-budget-supermarket beer, than most aussie beers, considering they're asking around the same.

I do love my schooner of Old though, and if it has sugar in it, so be it.


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## AndrewQLD (24/4/09)

Screwtop said:


> What is all of this Hoo Har regarding sugar, FFS German purity law forbids it, Belgians use heaps of it, it's all to do with style. Here in Australia it's use came about due to the old "if in doubt. tick cost" addage. In the 19th century malt was expensive to transport, there were small sugar refineries everywhere where cane would grow, so availability in some areas saved costs. Sugar had been used to make beer, so why not. It is a part of Australian beer styles - like them or hate them. To achieve a certain level of dryness in beer my yeast of choice needs a little help so "flame suit on" I use a little sugar to achieve the required FG "flame suit off". Other aspects of beer profile can be manipulated using water chemistry and mash shedules, don't hear anyone badmouthing water treatment or PH adjustment.
> 
> Think sugar gets a bad wrap due to it's use in the A-typical Cidery Kit beers. I used to believe that the cideryness came from the use of sugar, but soon discovered that malt age, yeast strain and fermentation temp were more to blame.
> 
> ...



Never a truer word spoken Screwy, +1.

Cidery beer and the twang is more to do with poor brewing practices and stale ingredients than sugar.

Andrew


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## warrenlw63 (24/4/09)

As much as it pains me to defend a mega brewer you blokes are forgetting a vital point.

They fill local beers full of sugar because that's what their consuming public is attuned to and most probably expects. They don't make it for us the whingeing minority.  

Also plenty of British Brewers are using varying degrees of sugars and we do nothing but applaud most of them.

Warren -


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## AndrewQLD (24/4/09)

buttersd70 said:


> perhaps that's whats in the DB recipe, but coopers, having, been contacted directly on the subject, responded with an email that has been posted here.




Butters, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet in regards to this CPA clone, I'm wondering why?
When I formulated the recipe it was based on the ingredients list from the white board photo and my mashing practises at the time, which was pretty much a single infusion rest and a short mash out.

You seem to forget that a clone recipe is not only about the ingredients but about producing a beer that ENDS up as close to the original as is possible, and using my system and mash schedule the addition of sugar (as Coopers once did) was essential in getting the attenuation required.
Home brew systems are totally different to the larger commercial systems and hence the results of the same recipe are different as I am sure you know, so a homebrewer has to "tweak" the original recipe to attain the same final results.

Having said all that if you read in the discussion thread for the CPA clone I have since experimented with a 4 step mash regime and salt additions to get the same result without using sugar. But I have to say it is a lot more involved and time consuming than going with the simple CPA with sugar recipe.
Sorry for the slight deviation off topic.

Andrew


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## hazard (24/4/09)

clean brewer said:


> I really cant believe what he says about Cane Sugar in beers :angry: , all natural???
> 
> 
> Oh yeh, and I was recently shocked to read that Tooheys Old contained 20-30% Sugar also..



While i don't agree with adding a lot of sugar to beer as espoused by Chiuck, I must admit that sugar is natural - where do you think it comes from? It grows in a field just like barley. Sugar cane is as natural as barley malt, it just doesn't taste as good in beer. That said....

Before I started home brewing (only 18 months ago) my 2 regular beers were Tooheys Old and JS Amber Ale. I was surprised to read Chuck's interview in BYO when he stated that Toohey's Old was 20-30% sugar (and this is an unsubstantiated claim - does anybody have a source of truth on this?) and that JSAA was 20% sugar (I guess that this claim is true, Chuck should know what he puts in his own beer!!). I have to say that I am now making better beer than either of these (IMHO  ) but I still don't mind either of them. I got up to Sydney last month and really enjoyed a schooner of fresh Old from the tap. I've lived down south for may years now, and its easy to get stubbies but hard to find Old on tap anywhere. Maybe sugar isn't as evil as some people on this forum make it out to be?

Oh and on really special occasions (like when someone else is paying) I like Chimay Blue. Now that is a magnificant beer, like many other belgian beers, and also like many belgian beers it contains ... sugar! Never stopped Belgium from making good beer.

Hazard


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## Bizier (24/4/09)

I regularly use sugar as an adjunct in higher alc beers, or to dry out a beer when using a lot of extract. I love big commercial beers that use sugar.

I appreciate JS for showing me some styles back when I knew no better (and I still get a bottle of their IPA when there is nothing else)... but they haven't really embodied all the philosophy they preach in the marketing.

I think Hahn should shut his wordy gob and brew a properly big and exciting beer, unlike his "crossbreed of barley wine / imperial pale" or whatever he called it, that weighed in at a mighty 7ish%...

If I celebrated my 10 and 20 years in commercial simultaneously in a beer, I would want it to be BIG and bold... and I mean something to get your head around.


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## WSC (24/4/09)

I think everyone has a right to make beer how THEY want.

No one forces me to drink a certain brand of beer and no one forces me to make a certain type of beer.

I think the sugar arguement has been overdone, there is no right and wrong. But in my mind there is what tastes good and what tastes average. There is what you choose to buy and what you don't.


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## jayse (24/4/09)

hazard said:


> I was surprised to read Chuck's interview in BYO when he stated that Toohey's Old was 20-30% sugar (and this is an unsubstantiated claim - does anybody have a source of truth on this?)



What makes you say this is unsubstantiated?
Chuck would have brewed millions of litres of it in his time at the big Lion Nathan breweries/*cough*beer factorys


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## KingPython (24/4/09)

Chuck Hahn a true ANZAC hero, taking down Germans one at a time h34r:


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## Peteoz77 (24/4/09)

From what I understand, the "German Purity Law" has been defunct since Germany joined the European Union. It was considered to be against free trade practices to force Germans to adhere to a law when none of the other EU members had to do it.


Or something like that....


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## jayse (24/4/09)

Food for thought, there used to be a law punishable if I remember correctly by death for taking hops cutting out of the zatec region also similar sentences for brewing beer that failed to get your guests intoxicated many centuries ago.
So maybe if we want to stick to old laws maybe we should start putting people to death for brewing light beer with NZ saaz. :lol:


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## Asher (24/4/09)

Chucky wrote...


> "It's more refreshing on a hot day than German beers it's brewed for our climate."


WTF!

Putting purity aside for a moment. Has anyone measured the FG of a maltshovel beer lately. I think you'll find quite a bit of residual sugars hanging around in there compared to a crisp German lager....


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## jonocarroll (24/4/09)

kook said:


> It is well known that the law had nothing to do with purity, but price protection. There are many reinheitsgebot "compliant" beers out there that in my opinion are simply crap.


Gee, if only someone had said that in post #3. <_< 



Screwtop said:


> What is all of this Hoo Har regarding sugar, FFS German purity law forbids it, Belgians use heaps of it, it's all to do with style.


OR, the old law prohibited it, and the new one doesn't. I think someone said something about that in post #3. <_< 



Peteoz77 said:


> From what I understand, the "German Purity Law" has been defunct since Germany joined the European Union. It was considered to be against free trade practices to force Germans to adhere to a law when none of the other EU members had to do it.
> 
> 
> Or something like that....


... something like that. Maybe something 'exactly' like that was said in post #3. <_< 

Ah, stuff it.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/4/09)

Good old Chuck another self promoter, really what did you expect him to say ?Its all about the bottom line.I can make watery thin beers with out sugar.  
GB


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## Adamt (24/4/09)

The only reason a decent proportion of the general population know about the "Purity Law" is because it's used as a wanky marketing gimmick for Beck's. 

Chuck made a mess of his argument, but he's obviously trying to speak out against the completely and utterly redundant "law", that never applied to Australian beer, to play on national pride and sell more beer.


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## Handy (24/4/09)

Just stumbled on this little clip on American craft brewers vs the big guys, seemed a bit apt here:

http://vimeo.com/4298464


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## Bribie G (24/4/09)

I eat maybe two slices of bread every couple of days. I like a nice normal sandwich made with left over corned silverside or pork, salad, some pickles, some avocado... and the only bread that ever comes into this house is ALDI $1.05 white. I know the bakeries and hot bread shops are full of sourdough, rye, multigrain etc but personally I like the ALDI. Before that I used to pay three times as much for Wonder White, UP etc but I reckon the ALDI hits the spot for me perfectly.

Now imagine that all the UPs Wonder White, Tip Top etc - that undoubtedly occupy 90% of the bread market - were withdrawn from sale and the only bread available was dunkel rye hoffenbrot with sesame and poppy seed.... there would be huge outrage. I would suggest that VB, XXXX, West End etc are the ALDI white of the beer world and their recipe just echoes what the public have been used to for decades. Thank God that these beers...... which are actually fairly good by international standards.......became our main sellers. We could have ended up with a different style, like the awful 4% draughts put out by DB or Lion, or the nasty UK keg beers (Althought we would like to think otherwise, most beers sold in the UK are not TTL or Ruddles County etc, they are cans of god awful 3.5% lagers and so called bitters sold through Safeway or ASDA or weak nitrokeg, or fake Fosters 4%)

Worst of all, we could have ended up with Bud or Coors and this could have happened, considering the cross pacific brewing influences such as the Fosters Brothers and our fondness for USA hops such as Cluster shown by our breweries. I believe POR came from an American strain. Count our blessings!

Edit: just researched and found that apparently POR came from Pride of Kent. Floats my boat


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## HoppingMad (24/4/09)

Dunno about bagging Chuck Hahn. I'm sure we've all had a malt shovel drink or two and their Porter is one of my faves at the moment. So yeah, I'll agree that some of what he's said is odd and not well thought out but can't bag a lot of his beers. He's done a lot for moving decent beer tastes and perceptions on beer forward in OZ. His food and beer sessions are also getting the average jo-bloh to appreciate that beer is more than just for swilling and raising it's profile to be more like wine - so I can't fault the guy for that either.

Thanks for clarifying my point on Coopers Pale versus Sparkling and the use of sugar Butters. Opinion was based on the number of recipes out there for Pale that use cane sugar so assumed it was part of process - even a book by Laurie Strahan I'd read. Regardless Sparkling use 5% as you've confirmed with your link and many of us here will admit to enjoying a Malt Shovel (20% sugar) or a Coopers Sparkling (5% sugar) or a Rochefort, Duvel or Chimay (off the dial sugar).

German Purity Law works for the Germans. Stupid amounts of sugar works for the Belgians. Brew any which way works for Aussies. I think one of the joys of Homebrewing is experimenting with your brews - and if sugar helps you with your taste/alcohol or other things you're trying to acheive with your bevvy then why not I say. Stick a turnip in your next brew for all I care - then again, maybe not! :lol: 

Hopper.


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## Darren (24/4/09)

I always found it amusing that the original purity laws did not include YEAST 8)

cheers

Darren


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## buttersd70 (24/4/09)

AndrewQLD said:


> Butters, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet in regards to this CPA clone, I'm wondering why?
> When I formulated the recipe it was based on the ingredients list from the white board photo and my mashing practises at the time, which was pretty much a single infusion rest and a short mash out.
> 
> You seem to forget that a clone recipe is not only about the ingredients but about producing a beer that ENDS up as close to the original as is possible, and using my system and mash schedule the addition of sugar (as Coopers once did) was essential in getting the attenuation required.
> ...



No, Andrew, I don't have a bee in my bonnet about your clone recipe. In my post prior to the one quoted, I responded to the statement that coopers (not your clone, or any other clone, tribute beer, similar-ish beer, etc, but the Coopers Brewery themselves) use high level of adjunct. I wasn't thinking about the fact that you had a very popular clone recipe; I was thinking about Coopers.....the response to that came back as 'but the database recipe has it'....to which I replied that yes it does....but I was talking about _coopers_, not clones, and heres what coopers say they use. If anything, I was diverting back away from the clone, which was nothing to do with my earlier statement that Coopers use no sugar in the PA and a maximum of 5% in the sparkling. 

Sorry for the OT


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## reviled (24/4/09)

BribieG said:


> We could have ended up with a different style, like the awful 4% draughts put out by DB or Lion



Thanks for pointing that out mate <_<


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## HoppingMad (24/4/09)

buttersd70 said:


> No, Andrew, I don't have a bee in my bonnet about your clone recipe. In my post prior to the one quoted, I responded to the statement that coopers (not your clone, or any other clone, tribute beer, similar-ish beer, etc, but the Coopers Brewery themselves) use high level of adjunct. I wasn't thinking about the fact that you had a very popular clone recipe; I was thinking about Coopers.....the response to that came back as 'but the database recipe has it'....to which I replied that yes it does....but I was talking about _coopers_, not clones, and heres what coopers say they use. If anything, I was diverting back away from the clone, which was nothing to do with my earlier statement that Coopers use no sugar in the PA and a maximum of 5% in the sparkling.
> 
> Sorry for the OT



Peace love and mung beans boys. B) Feeling bad for dragging Andrew into this - apologies fella, it's a great looking recipe and high on my to do list. And Butters, as usual your research is second to none and all points noted. Was using his recipe to illustrate the point that there are good beers (and recipes too by the looks of it!) that use sugar and a lot of us homebrewers like 'em. 

Hopper.


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## AndrewQLD (24/4/09)

HoppingMad said:


> Peace love and mung beans boys. B) Feeling bad for dragging Andrew into this - apologies fella, it's a great looking recipe and high on my to do list. And Butters, as usual your research is second to none and all points noted. Was using his recipe to illustrate the point that there are good beers (and recipes too by the looks of it!) that use sugar and a lot of us homebrewers like 'em.
> 
> Hopper.



No problems Hopper, perhaps my sensitivity knob needs turning down, it's just that I have seen similar comments on a couple of other threads and took more notice than I should.
No problems with Butters either.

Andrew

And I still think sugar has it's place in brewing. And I like Mung beans too.

Andrew


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## Bribie G (24/4/09)

reviled said:


> Thanks for pointing that out mate <_<



It's a constant source of amazement that NZ produces hops to die for (I have just had a sneaky taste of my Kiwi Blonde showcasing Green Bullet and NZ Cascade in a blonde maize ale :icon_drool2: ) and I wonder why the mainstream Kiwi brews are so bland, does it arise from a time when they had to import all their hops or is there a nanny society thing happening here - I believe that the Temperance movements were far more active in good old Protestant NZ. Porridge and John Knox. aye.


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## KingPython (24/4/09)

Doesn't NZ make better craft beer than Australia..or something?


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## Batz (24/4/09)

Zwickel said:


> Hello homebrewers,
> 
> 
> ahem....I forgot to say: I love XXXX Gold and Bitter, Queenslands No.1 beer rocks :super:




I don't mind XXXX either Zwickel, I drink it when I go to the hotel, Coopers Pale as well but I find that's a bit heavy and I soon get tired of it.

V.B. I'm afraid I can't drink, but then I never have liked it. Australian beers have there place,but I'm a 4th generation Australian so I perhaps that's why.
You are a German living in Germany, perhaps you like it because it's not a bad beer at all. 

I think home brewers can get a little narrow minded in this country.

Ok off to hide under the bed.

Batz


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## AndrewQLD (24/4/09)

Batz said:


> I don't mind XXXX either Zwickel, I drink it when I go to the hotel, Coopers Pale as well but I find that's a bit heavy and I soon get tired of it.
> 
> V.B. I'm afraid I can't drink, but then I never have liked it. Australian beers have there place,but I'm a 4th generation Australian so I perhaps that's why.
> You are a German living in Germany, perhaps you like it because it's not a bad beer at all.
> ...



Ha Ha, Zwickel I missed your post. Sure your not just sucking up to us Qlders so you have a bed and a few brewdays next time your over :lol: 

Have to agree though Batz, I've spent many a Sunday morning at the bowls club having a pot of Gold each end, and I'm talking 21 ends of Bowls here :huh: .

Andrew


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## Zwickel (24/4/09)

howdy mates,

yes, you Aussies have a lot of good beers in your country, I wouldnt miss anything if I live there.

Just another few words to the purity law:

I think thats just a matter of marketing. There are so many good beers all over the world and if you want to get a bigger piece of the market cake, your beer has to be something special. The beer should be distinguishable to other beers, so hopefully you can satisfy a certain target group.
Thats all.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Gulpa (24/4/09)

BribieG said:


> It's a constant source of amazement that NZ produces hops to die for (I have just had a sneaky taste of my Kiwi Blonde showcasing Green Bullet and NZ Cascade in a blonde maize ale :icon_drool2: ) and I wonder why the mainstream Kiwi brews are so bland, does it arise from a time when they had to import all their hops or is there a nanny society thing happening here - I believe that the Temperance movements were far more active in good old Protestant NZ. Porridge and John Knox. aye.



I think its just that mainstream brews everywhere are pretty bland. NZ craft beer is excellent and from what I have tasted makes good use of those hops.

cheers
andrew.


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## brendanos (24/4/09)

I subscribe to the notion that the Reinheitsgebot was introduced during hard times to prevent wheat, an essential and limited foodstuff, from being used to make booze.


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## barfridge (26/4/09)

King Python said:


> Chuck Hahn a true ANZAC hero, taking down Germans one at a time h34r:


PoMo will be able to give more info, but apprently Chuck Hahn is on a crusade to turn tooheys new into a classic german pilsenser, bit by bit.

has anyone else heard of this ambition?


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## Screwtop (26/4/09)

HoppingMad said:


> Dunno about bagging Chuck Hahn. I'm sure we've all had a malt shovel drink or two and their Porter is one of my faves at the moment. So yeah, I'll agree that some of what he's said is odd and not well thought out but can't bag a lot of his beers.




No disrespect to you quoting Chuck HM, and none to Chuck either for that matter either. It's all about marketing, did Chuck happen to mention that JS Porter is a lager :lol:


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## HoppingMad (27/4/09)

Screwtop said:


> No disrespect to you quoting Chuck HM, and none to Chuck either for that matter either. It's all about marketing, did Chuck happen to mention that JS Porter is a lager :lol:



Whoah, really, or am I missing a gag? What qualifies it as a lager? There's plenty of darker beers that use pils as a base malt - or are you saying lager yeast is used? Or have I completely missed something (which wouldn't be unusual :blink: )

Hopper.


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## Screwtop (27/4/09)

HoppingMad said:


> Whoah, really, or am I missing a gag? What qualifies it as a lager? There's plenty of darker beers that use pils as a base malt - or are you saying lager yeast is used? Or have I completely missed something (which wouldn't be unusual :blink: )
> 
> Hopper.




No gag, it's a lager. Search around.

Screwy

EDIT: Did some research and found:


> JSP has become an ale now


. Sorry for the misinfo.


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## Bribie G (27/4/09)

It's easy to pick up mis-info. Even sources like Roger Protz can be mistaken. His now quite out of date but still useful "Complete Encyclopedia of Beer" cheerfully asserts that Toohey's Old became bottom fermented and was no longer a true ale. I was even going to use a lager yeast for my current Old attempt for a mini comp and have been swiftly corrected by the forum  

Mind you this is the infallable Protz who also states that Cascade and Boags merged some time ago. Hmmmm? :huh: :huh: 

After a ten hour drive in January the couple of pints of JSP at the Town Green in Port Mac were so welcome I couldn't have cared less what was in them.


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## reviled (27/4/09)

BribieG said:


> It's a constant source of amazement that NZ produces hops to die for (I have just had a sneaky taste of my Kiwi Blonde showcasing Green Bullet and NZ Cascade in a blonde maize ale ) and I wonder why the mainstream Kiwi brews are so bland, does it arise from a time when they had to import all their hops or is there a nanny society thing happening here - I believe that the Temperance movements were far more active in good old Protestant NZ. Porridge and John Knox. aye.



To be honest the one thing ive noted with our swill over yours is that ours is in general more bitter, every mega swill beer ive tried in aussie I note is quite a bit sweeter... But that doesnt mean the swill over here uses lovely NZ hops (NZ cascade not included in the lovely part imo) they use bloody isohop cheap crap just like over there...

But NZ craft beer, now thats different B) We seem to have alot more craft breweries and craft beer gets better exposure, but of course weve allways had Macs leading the way, where as you guys had Coopers but that seemed to be more concentrated in SA

To credit coopers, they havnt sold out like Macs has <_< (as far as I know?  )


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## DiscoStu (27/4/09)

At the end of the day, drink what you enjoy and brew what you enjoy drinking. Personally I'd much rather go to a Bavarian Bier cafe for a few on Paulaner Pils on hot day than another pub for a VB or Tooheys New, but that's my preference.


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## beers (27/4/09)

I think that article should really be titled "Aussie brewer disputes Barmaid from the Bavarian Bier Cafe".... but then again I don't think it would stir up as much of a fuss


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## Batz (27/4/09)

DiscoStu said:


> At the end of the day, drink what you enjoy and brew what you enjoy drinking. Personally I'd much rather go to a Bavarian Bier cafe for a few on Paulaner Pils on hot day than another pub for a VB or Tooheys New, but that's my preference.




Pop in there after work here as well :huh:  Sure most people do.

Batz


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