# Cool Wort In Pot Or Sealed Cube?



## Truman42 (28/8/11)

When I went to the BIAB demo at G&G on Saturday they drained off the wort into a HDPE cube and let it cool down in there saying that you could use that to ferment even a week later if need be...I get that no worries.

In NickJDs "Move to all grain for $30 thread he simply puts glad wrap on the pot and the lid and sits it on a cold floor over night.

Is either method acceptable? The guys doing the G&G demo said you must put the cooling wort straight into a hdpe cube to avoid risk of contamination.

Im going to have a go at this BIAB doing a 10 litre brew in my 19l stock pot. My biggest problem is that I dont have a tap on my stock pot yet and dont want to try the messy option of pouring the wort into the hdpe cube. I know I could try siphoning but how do I get the siphon started? I tried finding a turkey baster to sock the wort through but bugger me no one sells these bloody things anymore.

So is Nicks method of just sitting it in the pot covered with glad wrap overnight been tried and tested with no problems?


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## mattfos01 (28/8/11)

I usually cool in the Pot overnight and not had infection issues. Not saying it is the best practice but it works


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## pk.sax (28/8/11)

Siphon like this.

Fill a tube with boiled water, just to avoid infection etc. Then, holding a thumb over each end, drop one end in the pot full of wort and release the mouth of the other end into the cube. Push the end of the tube to the bottom of the cube to avoid oxidizing the hot wort. Your cube should be on the floor/lower than the bottom of the pot. Once the water in the tube starts flowing into the cube it will suck the wort through as well.

Use a hot wort proof tube. I kinda did make do with the reinforced 65C proof drinking water PVC tubing available at the green shed and various camping stores but silicon tube is better. Best solution would be a jiggler siphon. but a steel version, in combination with a silicon hose. This is what I have now. Gryphonbrewing.com sells this but he is crook ATM and shop is shut 
GB SS Siphon tip


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## thylacine (28/8/11)

Truman said:


> When I went to the BIAB demo at G&G on Saturday they drained off the wort into a HDPE cube and let it cool down in there saying that you could use that to ferment even a week later if need be...I get that no worries.
> 
> In NickJDs "Move to all grain for $30 thread he simply puts glad wrap on the pot and the lid and sits it on a cold floor over night.
> 
> ...


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## Josh (28/8/11)

Truman said:


> My biggest problem is that I dont have a tap on my stock pot yet and dont want to try the messy option of pouring the wort into the hdpe cube. I know I could try siphoning but how do I get the siphon started? I tried finding a turkey baster to sock the wort through but bugger me no one sells these bloody things anymore.



I just start the siphon by sucking on the tube. I figure any bugs in my mouth can't handle near boiling temperatures. Have had no infection problems.

The funny thing is, I've had a ball valve awaiting installation for over 2 years.


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## pk.sax (28/8/11)

Lol. Last weekend I burnt a nice pink patch on my stomach handling boiling water.... I'd rather keep the boiling wort away from my mouth. A week of uncomfortable bandages on the stomach was bad... Don't wanna imagine what a bandage on the mouth would feel like. Just took a little slip of the hand, dropped bung in mouth of flask, while sterilizing a flask and luckily I did it all over the kitchen sink so could just drop it all and jumped I to the shower.

Just saying be careful with boiling sticky stuff.


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## kelbygreen (28/8/11)

I used to use a silicone hose and sanitise first as well as my hands. then put leather glove one hand, fill with water put thumb over one end and hold the other up high with the glove hold the hose a few hundred mm from the end so the part the glove is touching wont be submerged in the wort. go over to pot and cube and quickly dump the end with the glove into the pot and release thumb and put the other end in the cube. 

the glove well do it without it and you will see why  burning fingers while trying to shuffle hands isnt nice wear a glove and no buring bits


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## manticle (28/8/11)

The idea of slow chilling in the vessel freaks me out a fair bit but people do it and report success. If making small batches and you have no tap, give it a go while you get yourself sorted. Make sure you seal the pot well with glad wrap.

Alternatively, you can chill the pot in the bath/sink as suggested. I did do this when I first started AG and it worked OK.

With either of the above methods, you will need to pitch your yeast as soon as the wort is in the right temperature range.

The advantage of no-chilling properly (hot wort into HDPE cube) is that you can store the cube, possibly indefinitely and least for a fair while, to pitch yeast at leisure. It's a technique of which I am a big fan, mainly for its flexibility.

Wait till you get a tap sorted before worrying too much though (unless you have an urge to siphon hot wort - something else that freaks me out a little).


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## RdeVjun (28/8/11)

Rest assured the wort cooled in- kettle is quite OK and I've used that method around 50 times over the last few years with no problems. Longer is possible too, but overnight is usually quite long enough.
Seeing as you've asked about either method's acceptability, then likewise, no- chill is quite OK too and common- place especially here with AHBers. The hot wort sanitises the cube- it isn't so much a case of avoiding the risk of contamination, more of pasteurisation.
So either way is acceptable- take your pick. B)


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## kelbygreen (28/8/11)

ok to add on this I got a call and didnt get to finish.

If you no chill the proper method is to have no air (oxigen) in the cube when storing so 10lts into a 20lt cube wont work. Also I would sanitise the cube before hand and make sure it seals (doesnt let air in or out) 

I have chilled the pot over night with no ill effects but if chilling the pot then you cannot cube as the wort needs to be above 80deg to sanitise the cube.

doing 10ts in a 20lt pot it will be so much easier to put it in a laundary or kitchen sink and fill with water to cool down I used to freeze my 2 lunch ice packs and throw them in to assist it.

Again I have cooled over night in the pot and in the fermenter just cover with glad wrap and put the lid back on. I Usually siphone into the ferment I havnt no chilled so I siphon hot wort in when doing maxi BIAB and then add water to the level you brew to then put in the fridge with temp control and pitch when within few deg of fermentation temp


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## Josh (28/8/11)

You could also get a 10L cube from Bunnings. They are pretty cheap.


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## Thirsty Boy (29/8/11)

Hey Truman,

As we said at the demo, cooling in the pot is IMO less than optimal.... But that is entirely different from it being bad or unworkable. There are a couple of potential quality issue with doing it, that are completely avoided by using a cube. But potential is just that... Potential, not gauranteed.

You do the best you can, thats workable with the equipment you have and the method you want to use, and keep in mind that there might well be "better" way to do it that you could look towards moving to some time down the track.

So - put the lid on your pot, wrap some gladwrap around it and either bung it in a sink full of cold water to chill it fast, or let it sit overnight to cool at ambient - and it will be fine. Then, as per Nick's method, you can just pour carefully into your fermenter leaving behind all the yurk in the kettle. Later, when you are doing bigger batches, have an appropriate pot for doIng it, have mastered syphoning or have a tap, then i think using a cube is a better solution if you are going to no-chill.

Syphoning - suck start your syphon with $2 turkey baster from the reject shop or wherever.

Remember, BIAB and No-Chilling are in no way related to or dependant on each other. At the demos we are showing you how to BIAB and how to No-Chill. There is no need for you to attach the two together


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## JWB (29/8/11)

Ok Guys.. 
I have my flame suit on and am ready for all missiles that may come my way. ( Hey maybe I need some bomb proof underwear?)
I have used the following method several times and have had no problems.

I use a 25ltr electric urn to boil my wort so my maximum boil capacity is about 18 ltrs or it tends to froth and boil over with the hop additions.
After boiling is over I turn the urn off and let it sit with lid on for 20 minutes while cleaning up a bit then transfer the wort to my fermenter via the outlet tap and strain through a boiled piece of stocking.
I top up the fermenter with cooled boiled water to the 25 ltr mark and put the lid on the fermenter and place it in my spare fridge and leave overnight with the airlock in place.
Next morning the wort is usually about 16C which is perfect for my lager yeast, I take out of fridge and stir like crazy for 5 minutes to introduce a little oxygen to the wort the add yeast.
Movement through the airlock is usually evident after 12 hours.
As i said I have done this a few times now and had no problems.
I now take to my bunker and await incomming missiles. 

Cheers


JWB


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## Nick JD (29/8/11)

The big concern about pot/kettle chilling overnight is whether chilling _on the hot break_ is an issue. 

I've rapid chilled (ice bath) a few times and I can't tell any difference in quality. 

But one advantage to pot chilling is that ALL the break material can be kept out of the fermenter, and the wort transfered to the fermenter has had time to settle to a very, very clear state.


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## Logman (29/8/11)

I'm a bit confused about the 'no oxygen' when no chilling - does that only apply if you plan to store the wort? 

Let's say I was going to do a 35 ltr batch, is it possible to drain it from the kettle into two 20 litre Jerry's, place them into my fermenting fridge with the door open and then pitch the yeast straight into the Jerry's the next morning once it has cooled down?


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## manticle (29/8/11)

Just extra resistance against infection (the no oxygen bit). If racking into cubes, it's no big deal to squeeze most of the air out then do up tight.

I often pitch yeast straight into jerrys.


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## Logman (29/8/11)

Cool thanks, I figured it would be easy to put around 17 litres into the 20 litre Jerry and pitch to eliminate the need to put it into a cube and then transfer to the Jerry. I plan to always start fermenting the morning after brewing, if not I'd use a cube for sure.


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## manticle (29/8/11)

Jerry and cube to me are the same thing. Do you mean cylindrical fermenter?

I use 20 L cubes/jerrys (the blue willow ones) for most brews and pitch straight in a day or two after. 20 L will take around 23 so unless you are using a crazy yeast like 3068, I find 20 L is usually enough headspace. I clean up any overflow during active ferment. Lid is backed off a turn or two once the yeast is pitched to let CO2 out.


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## Logman (29/8/11)

I think of a cube as what you buy a FWK in (square thing) and a Jerry as the skinny rectangular thing. 

Are you able to put enough liquid into a Jerry where you can squeeze out all of the air and then have enough air space to ferment in the next day when you let the air out? Would just be an Ale with Safale US-05. 

If that's the case I'll brew 40 Litres - I've got a couple of the white rectangular ones from Bunnings.


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## manticle (29/8/11)

I can squeeze most of the air out of a 20 L cube filling even to just 15 L. This is the narrow oblong type although the FWK cubes I've used similarly. Usually I fill between 18-20L. The blue willow jerrys hold about 23 L filled to the top.

Both are the same thing and you can no chill in either and ferment in either.

Once filled to the right level, I squeeze out the air, tighten and leave to cool. When cooled and when my starter is ready, I undo the cap which allows air back in and the liquid level drops. Re-tighten, shake the shit out of it, undo the lid and add the starter, retighten then back off a couple of turns. Mostly enough headspace, occassionally I get a bit of leaking krausen but that's fine. I clean it up to avoid attractin fruit flies and so on but the brew inside should be safe enough. Saves transfers and the associated contamination risks and the blue jerrys are a very convenient shape.


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## Logman (29/8/11)

Awesome, going to give that a try on my next batch, thanks manticle :icon_cheers:


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## Robbo2234 (29/8/11)

I was thinking about do this myself,

I am not sure how i can ferment in the same cube if i have removed all the air. there would be no room for the krausen?

am I am missing somthing can some one point me in the right direction?

Thanks


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## chunckious (29/8/11)

manticle said:


> Once filled to the right level, I squeeze out the air, tighten and leave to cool. When cooled and when my starter is ready, I undo the cap which allows air back in and the liquid level drops.


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## Robbo2234 (29/8/11)

FACEPALM!

Thanks


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## Truman42 (29/8/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Syphoning - suck start your syphon with $2 turkey baster from the reject shop or wherever.



(Thanks once again for the demo, very informative, even my wife said she enjoyed it.)

Mate do you think I could find one of these anywhere?? I tried reject shops, hardware stores, $2.00 shops, Coles, Woolies, looked everywhere on Sunday and couldn't find one.

Anyway I bit the bullet and fitted a tap to my pot today at work with the help of one of our workshop guys. I even have a quick release air coupling that connects and disconnects my silicone hose.

My recipe says no chill so I would rather do it that way. but my HDPE cube is 17 litres and as i just read here further back I forgot about the no air gap so will buy a 10 litre cube from Bunnings.

Anyone know where I can get that no rinse sanitiser from somewhere over in the SE burbs of Melbourne? I dont want to buy online as I need it tomorrow night.

Thanks again for the advice.


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## pk.sax (29/8/11)

Go to the pharmacy and buy a bottle of Hydrogen peroxide if ur in a hurry.

Dilute 3% H2O2 1 part to ~6-10 parts or so boiled and cooled and spray as a sanitizer.

Its pretty much the same cost buying from the pharmacy in 2X50 ml bottles as buying the brewshield/copper tun branded one from the HB shop.


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## Logman (29/8/11)

Truman said:


> I even have a quick release air coupling that connects and disconnects my silicone hose.


Where did you get that? 

Anyone know where these are available, Bunnings? I checked out the sponsors but can't see them. I want a quick disconnect coming out of my March pump. At this stage I have a three piece tap with a barb on it.


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## Truman42 (30/8/11)

Logman said:


> Where did you get that?
> 
> Anyone know where these are available, Bunnings? I checked out the sponsors but can't see them. I want a quick disconnect coming out of my March pump. At this stage I have a three piece tap with a barb on it.



Logman, We get them from Wurth as they supply a lot of our workshop supplies. However you should be able to get them from Hydraulic fittings suppliers such as Enzed or Pirtek.

heres a couple of pics.


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## Logman (30/8/11)

Thanks, my hose looks like it's going to fall off eventually and I don't want to put it on with a hose clamp.


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## Truman42 (30/8/11)

practicalfool said:


> Go to the pharmacy and buy a bottle of Hydrogen peroxide if ur in a hurry.
> 
> Dilute 3% H2O2 1 part to ~6-10 parts or so boiled and cooled and spray as a sanitizer.
> 
> Its pretty much the same cost buying from the pharmacy in 2X50 ml bottles as buying the brewshield/copper tun branded one from the HB shop.



Ok so this is no rinse? I can just spray it on and leave it?


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## pk.sax (30/8/11)

Truman said:


> Ok so this is no rinse? I can just spray it on and leave it?


Yep. All it will leave behind is water.


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## brewn00b (31/8/11)

Probably a stupid question...
Would putting the hot wort into say 2 x 10L cubes, leaving them for 15mins or so so the cubes have some contact with the high temps then chuck them in an ice bath work well? Would the smaller volume of wort to be cooled be negligible when compared to just cooling 20L in a stainless pot? Currently only use a small pot for about 10L of extract so an ice bath has worked fine, but I am getting a bigger pot and trying to decide whether to no chill/buy a chiller/just try more ice.


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## kelbygreen (31/8/11)

truman you could get them fittings at any place that sells air compressors to, but maybe hydraulics are SS and air chrome I dunno, I am offsiding for a drilling company now so will be able to find all this stuff out I guess! heaps of water, hydraulics and air going on all the time


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## Truman42 (1/9/11)

manticle said:


> I can squeeze most of the air out of a 20 L cube filling even to just 15 L. This is the narrow oblong type although the FWK cubes I've used similarly. Usually I fill between 18-20L. The blue willow jerrys hold about 23 L filled to the top.
> 
> Both are the same thing and you can no chill in either and ferment in either.
> 
> Once filled to the right level, I squeeze out the air, tighten and leave to cool. When cooled and when my starter is ready, I undo the cap which allows air back in and the liquid level drops. Re-tighten, shake the shit out of it, undo the lid and add the starter, retighten then back off a couple of turns. Mostly enough headspace, occassionally I get a bit of leaking krausen but that's fine. I clean it up to avoid attractin fruit flies and so on but the brew inside should be safe enough. Saves transfers and the associated contamination risks and the blue jerrys are a very convenient shape.



manticle,

So can I do this with my 8 litres of wort in a 10 litre jerry? If so I what about an airlock or don't you really need it? Could I put my aquarium heater in the wort through the top and then just cover the opening with some gladwrap and a rubber band?


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## sim (1/9/11)

Truman said:


> Logman, We get them from Wurth as they supply a lot of our workshop supplies. However you should be able to get them from Hydraulic fittings suppliers such as Enzed or Pirtek.
> 
> heres a couple of pics.



Are they "pin-locks", as in when you disconnect them they hold on to the fluid in the line?

Cheers,
sim


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## kymba (1/9/11)

i know it's a bit late, but instead of a baster i use a 60ml catheter syringe, not one that takes a needle. I got it from a feed store

if you use beer line you can charge the whole line in 1 draw - all you need is a bit of a bottling wand to join the beer line & the syringe

if you use 1/2" silicon tube it takes 4 draws for about 2m of hose - just jam the silicon hose into the big end of a fermenter tap & put the same bottling wand into the small end

I took some drunken photos a while back to illustrate. thread here


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## manticle (1/9/11)

Truman said:


> manticle,
> 
> So can I do this with my 8 litres of wort in a 10 litre jerry? If so I what about an airlock or don't you really need it? Could I put my aquarium heater in the wort through the top and then just cover the opening with some gladwrap and a rubber band?



8 L in a 10 L cube will be fine.

No idea about the heater as I've never used one - I think the cube in a sink/bath of water with the heater in that would be easier though. The main point of fermenting in the no chill cube is avoiding contamination issues from transfer and whatever else. Keep it simple. Transfer hot wort, let cool, add yeast, ferment.

No need for an airlock. Just back the lid off being tight and the gas will escape. If you notice the cube ballooning, you have the lid too tight.


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## pips78 (1/9/11)

Hey there
Im reading this thread as I about to do a BIAB and just working out the best way of chilling as i dont have a heat exchange. Is there any reason you cant put it in a fridge and get it to pitching temp straight after the boil (nothing in fridge) ??? Is this too hot for the fridge? Also would it be worth purging the head space in the cube with Co2 to avoid infection?
Cheers


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## manticle (1/9/11)

Depending on the batch size, putting a sealed cube of hot wort in the fridge will cool the wort quicker than leaving it out. It won't be at pitching temp straight after the boil though - it will still take several hours. If you are going to wait several hours to chill, you may as well wait overnight and pitch the next day.

No chill or chill to my mind. Not partial chill or no chill almost a bit. The benefits of either method get lost with most compromises and both methods are tried, tested and stand on their own.


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## Truman42 (1/9/11)

manticle said:


> 8 L in a 10 L cube will be fine.
> 
> No idea about the heater as I've never used one - I think the cube in a sink/bath of water with the heater in that would be easier though. The main point of fermenting in the no chill cube is avoiding contamination issues from transfer and whatever else. Keep it simple. Transfer hot wort, let cool, add yeast, ferment.
> 
> No need for an airlock. Just back the lid off being tight and the gas will escape. If you notice the cube ballooning, you have the lid too tight.



Thanks mate, so am I right to assume that an airlock isn't needed because the pressure created during fermentation stops bad air getting in? And once fermentation slows down e.g. day five when I open up to add my dry hops, the jobs basically done so it doesn't matter if air gets in?
I agree with you about putting the heater in a bucket and wil do that. 

One more question should I use two packets of the us 05 yeast I'm going to use in this recipe? Or will one packet do with eight liters.


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## Truman42 (1/9/11)

sim said:


> Are they "pin-locks", as in when you disconnect them they hold on to the fluid in the line?
> 
> Cheers,
> sim



Yes they are but it doesn't hold the liquid because the flow is slow and doesn't fill the entire hose so air can get in and allow the liquid to flow out.


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## bignath (2/9/11)

Logman said:


> Where did you get that?
> 
> Anyone know where these are available, Bunnings? I checked out the sponsors but can't see them. I want a quick disconnect coming out of my March pump. At this stage I have a three piece tap with a barb on it.



you could also use the normal brass (yeah i know, brass) clip on hose fittings. I have them on all my pots and hoses and they work great! Not too fussed about the small amount of brass these fittings add to my brewery. In a perfect world, i'd have some kind of stainless option, but these are cheap as ($5 for each fitting) from a local general store type shop, and they do a great job.


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## Flewy (2/9/11)

Truman said:


> One more question should I use two packets of the us 05 yeast I'm going to use in this recipe? Or will one packet do with eight liters.



One properly rehydrated packet of US-05 will be plenty for 8L


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## Nick JD (2/9/11)

Flewy said:


> One properly rehydrated packet of US-05 will be plenty for 8L



Quite possibly too plenty! Probably worth splitting that pack of US05 in half. Although I reckon over-pitching is not as bad as under-pitching.


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## sim (2/9/11)

Truman said:


> Yes they are but it doesn't hold the liquid because the flow is slow and doesn't fill the entire hose so air can get in and allow the liquid to flow out.



Thanks mate.


sim


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