# White Labs - Wlp800 Vs Wlp830



## sluggerdog (24/1/05)

Hi,

Got my fermenting fridge on the weekend so I am going try liquid yeasts for the first time.

My local HBS has both the *Pilsner/Lager Yeast WLP800* and the *German Lager Yeast WLP830* in stock at the moment.

I am going to step back a bit from extract and just do a kit + bits brew and was looking to make a german lager/pilsner similar to becks.

Not sure on the kit that I will get but it will be either a pilsner or lager can and I will hop it with some Hallearu hops that I have in the freezer.

So anyway to my question, which yeast of the 2 I have access to will be closer to the dry and crispness of becks? (I was leaning towards the WLP830)

Thanx
SD


----------



## neonmeate (24/1/05)

definitely go the 830 if youre after a becks taste. the 800 will take a lot more work to get rid of the diacetyl (buttery stuff) and will leave more maltiness than you want in a becks type beer - 830 on the other hand has been pretty foolproof for me making clean lagers with less lagering time (but probably doesnt give as rich a flavour as the 800)
800 is the Pilsner Urquell yeast and 830 is the weihenstephan strain - very common in german breweries so may even be the becks strain.
so, go the 830 is my advice


----------



## sluggerdog (24/1/05)

Thanks Mate, Will get the 830 later on today. 

 

Nice and Simple


----------



## JFF (25/2/05)

I'll be very intersested to hear your views on this beer. I use both these yeast on a regular basis and think they are both great. 

That said .... the fact you are after a becks clone aside, if I were looking for "Crispness" I would be using the 800. 

For my money, the 830 produces a beer that is more mellow than the 800. But at the end of the day, I dont think you can go wrong with either.

Cheers 
JFF


----------



## sluggerdog (26/2/05)

Thanks JFF.

I haven't tried the 830 yet as it is still brewing. I did however buy wyeat pilsen lager so I can compare these 2 when I get around to it.


----------



## Gulf Brewery (26/2/05)

Gents

I will be interested in how you compare the 800 and 830 yeasts. I tried 800,820 and 830 and 2124 yeasts in Pils. I have now gone back to wyeast 2278 as I think it is the best one for a malty pils. I have done a pils with 833 (as has DrunkArab) and that is an interesting beer as well. Different to 2278, but an excellent pils.

Cheers
Pedro


----------



## Ross (26/2/05)

Sluggerdog,

Now you have your small kegs I'd be splitting 50-50 on the same brew & comparing the 2 yeasts that way...


----------



## Asher (26/2/05)

I spent the summer just past brewing with these exact two yeasts. The are to very different yeasts. IMO The German yeast is allot more subtle. It accentuates the malt in your beer and is very subtle with its bouquet. On the other hand, the 800 imparts a very strong floral bouquet seen in allot of the European pilseners...
Becks has this floral bouquet, so I'd go for the 800. I tend to use the 830 for my other lagers like the GT through to Steam Styles... Since its your first liquid yeast I'd also recommend 800 just for the wow factor... You'll understand totally just what sort of flavours a good yeast can impart on a beet with this baby.....
As for diacetyl Its a flaw.... Plenty of info on this list on how to fix it.

Asher for now...


----------



## sluggerdog (26/2/05)

I've already got the 830 brewing at the moment (ESB: bavarian lager) so I'll see how that goes. I also have a 2007 Wyeast Pilsen lager on the way.

Would the wyeast 2007 be similar to the white labs 800?

ROSS: I only have 1 small keg, the rest were the big ones so no can do with that. Plus I don't have the fridge room to ferment 2 lots at once.


To really test out the 2 different yeasts I have ordered from grumpys 2 X STELLA'S PRIDE BELGIAN LAGER and will do 1 bacth with each yeast.

This waY I will be able to see the reuslts and decide what I like!

Cannot wait..


----------



## deebee (26/2/05)

Slugger,

I thought I only had room for one fermenter in my frig until I took some good advice from a few members on this forum.

Just cut out the moulded plastic on the inside of the door -- it takes up heaps of space. There is a layer or two of insulation inside that needs to be held in place, maybe a sheet of masonite, I used dog fence wire. 

I just used a heavy duty box cutter to cut the plastic and left in place the upper part of the door so that I have one shelf for odds and ends.

If it takes 6 weeks to turn around a lager (2 to ferment, 4 to lager) you might as well make two brews. For my first brews with my frig I did a part-mash attempt at a vienna lager and then just threw together a kits and bits brew while the mash was going. Both blubbing away a week later.

cheers.


----------



## sluggerdog (26/2/05)

Thanks Deebee but my problem with my fermenting fridge is it is a small one 225L so I won't get 2 fermentors it in, would be perfect if I could though, I need to do 2 bacthes at a time or a 60 litre fermetor.

Will save up for a big ass fridge then I will be cheerin!


----------



## sluggerdog (24/3/05)

After My first time using the 830 I think I might have made the wrong choice when picking a yeast similar Becks, I have found the beer to be very mellow and not crisp at all.

Anyway I have since bought the wyeast Pilsen 2007 which I am lead to believe is compared to the White labs 800 so I am looking forward to comparison.


Users of the 830, does it create a huge white creamy head? as this is what I have found and am not sure if it is the yeast or the kit I used (ESB Bavirian Lager)


----------



## Dunkel_Boy (24/3/05)

Keep in mind that crisp comes from a) sugar profile; B) fermentation temps; and c) filtering, as well as yeast profile. I would look around before I blamed that beautiful yeast.


----------



## sluggerdog (24/3/05)

Dunkel_Boy said:


> Keep in mind that crisp comes from a) sugar profile; B) fermentation temps; and c) filtering, as well as yeast profile. I would look around before I blamed that beautiful yeast.
> [post="50592"][/post]​




Could you explain this a little more so I understand.. Atleast the sugar profile bit.


ALSO I wasn't saying ti was a bad yeast, just not what I was expecting, my fault picking the wrong yeast, not the yeast itself..


----------



## dallas (14/4/05)

sluggerdog said:


> After My first time using the 830 I think I might have made the wrong choice when picking a yeast similar Becks, I have found the beer to be very mellow and not crisp at all.
> 
> Anyway I have since bought the wyeast Pilsen 2007 which I am lead to believe is compared to the White labs 800 so I am looking forward to comparison.
> 
> ...



slugger,

i've recently brewd the ESB pils (standard) with teh 830 yeast, and i have to say that i was very dissappointed in it.. it brewed extremenly low temp (around 8-10oc), and i CC'd for 3wks... it had a great creamy head, but was a very strong 'beery' flavour (not a good flavour tho), rather than a very floral 'crisp' brew that i was after. :angry: 

I'm actually going to try the same kit agian with the 838 yeast and compare the differences.. i'd be happy to hear more on how you have gone with this kit/yeast combo, as it's an easy kit to throw down in a hurry for good results... it's been in the bottle now for some 3-4wks now, so might actually pop another one tonight, and see if it has improved... :unsure: 


D


----------



## sluggerdog (14/4/05)

sounds just like what happened to me dallas. very disapointing.


----------



## Dunkel_Boy (14/4/05)

sluggerdog said:


> Dunkel_Boy said:
> 
> 
> > Keep in mind that crisp comes from a) sugar profile; B) fermentation temps; and c) filtering, as well as yeast profile. I would look around before I blamed that beautiful yeast.
> ...



Sorry I took so long mate, lost the thread!

Ok, sugar profile... if you mash at say 68C, you're going to produce sugars that err on the side of unfermentable... so great for a stout or something. Lagers you need to mash at a lower temp, 63-65C, to extract more fermentable sugars to try to get the lowest gravity you can. A lot of breweries add sucrose/dextrose to their lagers, as they are 100/95% fermentable, which drops the final gravity right where they want it.

Ferm temps - Your yeast will have an ideal temperture range, and certain flavour characteristics, like diacetyl (some more than others). If you ferment out of the temperature range (lagers are usually 8-14C) you're going to produce fusels/bad flavours. To complicate it further, if the yeast produces a lot of diacetyl (quite common), you need to have it at this ideal temperature until about 1020, then raise it up to 20C or so to eat away the diacetyl... otherwise you're going to have a thickish buttery lager.
Another part of the fermentation temp bit is lagering... you need to lager for a long time to get that beer crisp, clean and smooth.

Filtering... ask Ross and Normell about this. Most commercial breweries filter their beers, making them crystal clear and 'crisp'. Think Tooheys Extra Dry. This is an option and I don't really think it's necessary.

What else... yeast. If you've got a high volume of yeast (high cell count) then your beer will be able to reach its final gravity without a problem. It's common for beers to fall short of their gravity (and so end up thick, dense) due to low cell count. The main cause of this is unhealthy yeast, and/or a small starter. Remember lagers need a starter about twice as big as an ale. Nutrients won't hurt either. So about 2-4L starter for a 5gal batch will do it, and if you add some nutrients (or boil some cheap yeast) you'll be fine.

Lagers are a tricky beer to make but incredibly rewarding if you do it right. I might take some photos when I make this Blank Czech Pils in a couple of weeks.

Cheers,
Adrian


----------



## sluggerdog (14/4/05)

Thanks for the info, just what I was looking for.


How long is the minimum time you can lager for to get the crispness? I have trouble going any longer then 2-3 weeks....

Cheers


----------



## Ross (14/4/05)

Dunkel_Boy said:


> Filtering... ask Ross and Normell about this. Most commercial breweries filter their beers, making them crystal clear and 'crisp'. Think Tooheys Extra Dry. This is an option and I don't really think it's necessary.
> 
> [post="54486"][/post]​



DB,

I filter my English bitters, because I generally prefer them young & see little value in long term CCing out of the keg - My oktoberfest though has been lagering for a week now & i won't be kegging it for a month - so doubt very much that it will need filtering... :chug:


----------



## sluggerdog (14/4/05)

"On tap: Russian Imperial Stout - Rossco's old ale
Bastion Best Bitter - Grumpys Classic English - Black Horse Porter - Chocolate Bitter - K & B Lite
In Primary: TT Landlord - Kilkenny - Imperial Stout
In Secondary: Doc's Oktoberfest - Brazillian Porter"

Ross, is this 7 kegs you have on tap now?


----------



## Ross (14/4/05)

Yes slugger - it's a tough life... :chug:


----------



## jgriffin (14/4/05)

Brazillian Porter? Is that a porter with all the fluff removed? 


But anyway, i've only used the WLP800, with the ESB fresh wort it's bloody sensational, although it does take like 6 weeks to clean up the diacetyl.


----------



## Dunkel_Boy (14/4/05)

Well, if you listen to Telegraph Road about 2700 times, that's about the minimum time.
I'd say 4 weeks, but if you get it down to 0-1C you can cut it down to 2-4 weeks probably.
Just remember, it has now been established (there was some debate a few weeks ago) that keeping the yeast in there is vital for lagering... so bring the temp down slowly. Too fast, and it will shock the yeast out of suspension.
Best of luck.


----------



## Dunkel_Boy (14/4/05)

jgriffin said:


> Brazillian Porter? Is that a porter with all the fluff removed?
> 
> 
> But anyway, i've only used the WLP800, with the ESB fresh wort it's bloody sensational, although it does take like 6 weeks to clean up the diacetyl.
> [post="54538"][/post]​



If you do a diacetyl rest at the right time (gravity), at the right temperature and for the right length of time, it should be gone, zip. Not all yeasts produce a lot of it, so you can get away with not doing a rest, and yes it will take a long time to get rid of diacetyl through lagering... if you can get rid of it at all.
Lagering generally takes the sharpness (sulphur, sulphate, some hops bitterness), clarifies the beer, and generally reduces/eliminates any other off flavours produced during primary fermentation... all of this includes basically stripping the yeast character. So, some yeasts will require more than others. I can't be slagged looking up info about WLP{800 at the moment, if it's Southern German lager, then it's a bloody clean yeast already.

EDIT: Realise that I'm thinking of WLP830 - German Lager yeast. Ah well.


----------



## Ross (14/4/05)

jgriffin said:


> Brazillian Porter? Is that a porter with all the fluff removed?
> 
> [post="54538"][/post]​



Yep, one smooth porter  - & some brazillian coffee beans as well....


----------



## Dunkel_Boy (14/4/05)

Brazil... if you take away the kidnapping, murder, crime, and poverty, and add more beautiful women, coffee, and soccer, it would be paradise.
Oh, and more porter.


----------

