# No Chill Cube - Bunnings Blue BMW Containers



## brewermp (28/11/14)

Hi All,

This is a quick post to let you all know that I have spoken to the manufacturer of the blue bmw containers (bored and curious) that are sold in bunnings and they are only rated up to 40 degrees of liquid. So 'no chill' is out of the question 

Have a good beerday.


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## Droopy Brew (28/11/14)

I have used one for 3 brews of no-chill. No problem. Not to say the info is incorrect but what something is rated to and what it can handle are often different.
Have now got a plate chiller but so it is now a filtered water vessel.


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## Grainer (28/11/14)

guilty of using a blue one twice now for no chill.


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## welly2 (28/11/14)

Oh my last brew was chilled in one of those bunnings containers. Seemed to be fine.


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## brewermp (28/11/14)

I wonder why they would make claims that it couldnt go higher than 40 then?


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## QldKev (28/11/14)

Probably to do with food safe, and possibly leaching chemicals at higher temperature.


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## Spiesy (28/11/14)

BMW, is that the brand?

We talking the 20L jerry can style plastic containers?

Shit, I've been using them for years... as have lots of brewers I know. 

I guess that explains my increasing mental retardation.


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## TheWiggman (28/11/14)

I can see this thread being a few pages long with lots of friendships lost.

1. I've used them, as have others, and they work
2. 'Rated' isn't a term I'd use without some sort of condition. What happens above 40°C?
3. Only the blue ones? What makes them different to all the other colours and non-coloured ones that are acceptable for use by home users and retailers alike?

I'm gonna put on my flame suit because they'll be a flyin' soon.


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## brewermp (28/11/14)

TheWiggman said:


> I can see this thread being a few pages long with lots of friendships lost.
> 
> 1. I've used them, as have others, and they work
> 2. 'Rated' isn't a term I'd use without some sort of condition. What happens above 40°C?
> ...


Yeah just mentioned the blue ones as they are the ones currently in stock at bunnings. I think manual testing is the best way to know I guess, obviously a lot of people here are using them fine so the companies statements are misleading.


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## TheWiggman (28/11/14)

If I was selling them I wouldn't suggest people carry hot water in them either. They warp to buggery (handy as 20l becomes 23l) and have no protection from the hot liquids inside, so can burn hands. And when no-chilling, thighs as these are particularly exposed when not wearing pants.


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## neo__04 (28/11/14)

I used one on my last brew.

Worked a treat.


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## Spiesy (28/11/14)

The thing I'm concerned about is food-safe, not the ability for the cube to _do it's job_, it's pretty obvious when it doesn't do its job.


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## Cocko (28/11/14)

OP, what is the BMW? Is that the brand?

Mine are willow brand and have treated me well for years and hundreds of brews.... multiple cubes, too.

Damn this thread, I need/was going to buy 2 in the morning and now will be wondering if my years of experience will over rule something someone said on the intergoogle machine. 

Seriously though, what is the rating for? Rated to what? Not explode? Leach chemicals?

Or is this just a cat amongst pigeons post?


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## brewermp (28/11/14)

This is the link to the current one I was looking into. I think they are better sized than the cubes. Take up less room. So I was bummed when he said that they cant hold the heat .

http://www.bunnings.com.au/venture-bmw-20l-blue-tint-water-jerry-can_p3240530


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## Tahoose (28/11/14)

They are fine


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## brewermp (28/11/14)

Tahoose said:


> They are fine


Nuff said lol.

I might try this one. Not a bad price.
http://www.bunnings.com.au/venture-bmw-20l-army-green-heavy-duty-jerry-can-with-bung_p3240536


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## lickapop (28/11/14)

Are they bpa free?


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## michaeld16 (28/11/14)

[quote name="TheWiggman" post="1243229" timestamp="141715 And when no-chilling, thighs as these are particularly exposed when not wearing pants.[/quote]
Brewing with no pants on is definateley not a good idea


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## michaeld16 (28/11/14)

TheWiggman said:


> If I was selling them I wouldn't suggest people carry hot water in them either. They warp to buggery (handy as 20l becomes 23l) and have no protection from the hot liquids inside, so can burn hands. And when no-chilling, thighs as these are particularly exposed when not wearing pants.


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## manticle (28/11/14)

HDPE is rated much hotter than 40 (120 from the depths of my memory but check rather than taking my word for it). They are HDPE. Maybe the manufacturer recommends 40 which is a different story.
I'd use any hdpe container confidently for my no chill wort, which is usually about 80 by the time it gets into the cube.

Yes they are bpa free.


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## Spiesy (28/11/14)

Cocko said:


> OP, what is the BMW? Is that the brand?
> 
> Mine are willow brand and have treated me well for years and hundreds of brews.... multiple cubes, too.
> 
> ...


Seriously dude...


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## Cocko (28/11/14)

sc.


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## MastersBrewery (28/11/14)

michaeld16 said:


> Brewing with no pants on is definateley not a good idea


Damn and you had to bring this up just before Vic swap day brew. (a couple of the attendees swear their secret to great brewing is nudity h34r: )


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## dammag (28/11/14)

There is a podcast about toxicity in brewing material's. It will put your mind at rest. Search for it and have a listen.


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## brewermp (28/11/14)

Was it this one?

December 12, 2013 - Homebrew Toxicology Pt. 2
Toxicologist Paul joins us again to follow up on your questions about possible toxic materials in homebrew.


http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=75092679


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## dammag (28/11/14)

Yes. Well worth the listen.


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## Blind Dog (28/11/14)

'rated' for most manufacturers simply means 'tested to' usually for the purposes of a local, industry or international standard. it costs to test so they only test to comply with applicable standards. I doubt very much there is a standard to test a potable water container above 40C, so why pay for the tests?

As Manticle said, HDPE is rated to 120C (for short periods; 110C continuously). so I do t see the issue


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## Coalminer (29/11/14)

Something to consider

I had a look at all the HDPE cubes/jerrycans etc at Bunnings and some other places and found that whilst they containers are HDPE mostly the lids are plain PVC

I found that the Dangerous Goods cubes that I sourced work well

They are HDPE with HDPE lids and and without the bunghole drilled out ( makes cleaning much simpler)

And they were less than $9.00 each :super:


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## brewermp (29/11/14)

Coalminer said:


> Something to consider
> 
> I had a look at all the HDPE cubes/jerrycans etc at Bunnings and some other places and found that whilst they containers are HDPE mostly the lids are plain PVC
> 
> ...


Where did you get them from?


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## slcmorro (29/11/14)

Coalminer said:


> bunghole


Heheh... he said bunghole.

I've used these jerrys for no-chil and fermenting before. I'm not dead yet. Yet...


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## Coalminer (29/11/14)

brewermp said:


> Where did you get them from?


Plasdene

http://www.plasdene.com.au/category/index/cat1/Industrial/cat2/Plastic/cat3/Dangerous+Goods+Approved+%28DGA%29/total/25/page/1


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## StewTurner (3/12/14)

I bought a blue 20 liter Jerry can from Bunnings a month or so ago (not Willow brand) and it split when I put no-chill wort in. Luckily I had a clean fermenter, so I no-chilled in that instead.


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## brewermp (3/12/14)

Stew the Cat said:


> I bought a blue 20 liter Jerry can from Bunnings a month or so ago (not Willow brand) and it split when I put no-chill wort in. Luckily I had a clean fermenter, so I no-chilled in that instead.


I was going to test it this weekend with the blue and green no chill containers (BMW from bunnings). Now I am worried


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## wide eyed and legless (3/12/14)

BPA free does not mean that it is safe, it just means that Bisphenol-A has been substituted for something else which hasn't been tested and could still leach estrogenic chemicals.


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## manticle (3/12/14)

I'll take the risk.


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## kaiserben (3/12/14)

Been using the 10L BMW jerry cans exclusively. I no-chill and ferment in the same container. 

Had no problems at all, except these little things:

1. Don't trust the Volume/Litre markings on these containers.
I know people say the 20L ones can hold 23L due to heat/expansion, but I think you'll find the containers (certainly the 10L ones) are already a fair bit over what those markers indicate. I found this out when using a brand new one to measure out water for my mashes and wondering why I kept getting way under my target gravities; it was (partially) too much strike water due to trusting the markers in the BMW jerry cans. 

2. Possible leeching issue.
Some of the blue colouring seems to leech out after first use, so that some areas of the container, particularly the corners, have become a bit see-through (and look like they're thinner than other areas of the container). I didn't notice any plastic flavours in the beer (and hopefully haven't absorbed too much plastic). Before first use, I'd recommend filling it with plain boiling water and leaving it overnight (I've been too lazy to follow this advice).


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## wide eyed and legless (3/12/14)

Yep we all take that risk. We will all have BPA in our bodies in low doses, but the good news is the estrogenic chemicals that we will be consuming will not affect us directly it is more likely to kill our grandchildren.
"A poison kills you," says biology professor Frederick vom Saal. "A chemical like BPA reprograms your cells and ends up causing a disease in your grandchild that kills him."


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## pist (3/12/14)

> Wikipedia
> 
> HDPE is known for its large strength to density ratio.[2] The density of high-density polyethylene can range from 0.93 to 0.97 g/cm3.[3] Although the density of HDPE is only marginally higher than that of low-density polyethylene, HDPE has little branching, giving it stronger intermolecular forces and tensile strength than LDPE. The difference in strength exceeds the difference in density, giving HDPE a higher specific strength.[4]* It is also harder and more opaque and can withstand somewhat higher temperatures (120 °C/ 248 °F for short periods, 110 °C /230 °F continuously)*


If it's HDPE it should in theory withstand the temperature of hot wort post whirlpooling.

There will be a reason why the manufacturer recommends a lower temperature, usually a reserved figure to cover their arse, and more than likely the dyes they put into the plastic to turn it blue or whatever colour has a risk of leeching from the plastic at elevated temperatures.

My HDPE cube I purchased from Craftbrewer is a BMW plastics (white colour) container. Given they sell these promoting use for no chilling would suggest theres little to no risk associated with the use of these containers for the purpose of no chill. The quote above seems to support this argument. I feel more than comfortable using the container, as the temperature which I normally around 80-90oC, well below the 110oC limit of HDPE.

_*This is however, only my personal opinion and I take no responsibility for the decision of others to use these containers.*_


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## pat_00 (3/12/14)

Are they Phtalate free?


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## Major Arcana (3/12/14)

Gonna pick up a few from Bunnings this weekend, looking pretty safe to me!


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## manticle (3/12/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Yep we all take that risk. We will all have BPA in our bodies in low doses, but the good news is the estrogenic chemicals that we will be consuming will not affect us directly it is more likely to kill our grandchildren.
> "A poison kills you," says biology professor Frederick vom Saal. "A chemical like BPA reprograms your cells and ends up causing a disease in your grandchild that kills him."[/size]


As a non-breeder, I feel vindicated.


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## Droopy Brew (3/12/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Yep we all take that risk. We will all have BPA in our bodies in low doses, but the good news is the estrogenic chemicals that we will be consuming will not affect us directly it is more likely to kill our grandchildren.
> "A poison kills you," says biology professor Frederick vom Saal. "A chemical like BPA reprograms your cells and ends up causing a disease in your grandchild that kills him."


Sweet. I didnt start no-chilling until after my procreation period.


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## barls (3/12/14)

i think bpa is the least of my worries after some of the stuff i used in the defines force


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## thylacine (3/12/14)

Re 'cubes' for safe no-chilling. ie. makers of FWK

Couple years ago I tried a couple of "Brewer's Selection" 15L Fresh Wort Kits. Kept the containers ('cubes'). Now use them (plus a couple more empty BS cubes that our local LHBS sourced for me) as my no-chill cubes/fermenters. They come with a bung installed but not 'drilled out'. I syphon... Four of them fit in my 150L chest freezer. Two years now with the BS cubes, no worries...

Cheers


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## stakka82 (3/12/14)

Coalminer said:


> Plasdene
> 
> http://www.plasdene.com.au/category/index/cat1/Industrial/cat2/Plastic/cat3/Dangerous+Goods+Approved+(DGA)/total/25/page/1


Ummmm look like normal cubes and don't mention lid composition?


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## wide eyed and legless (3/12/14)

pist said:


> If it's HDPE it should in theory withstand the temperature of hot wort post whirlpooling.
> 
> There will be a reason why the manufacturer recommends a lower temperature, usually a reserved figure to cover their arse, and more than likely the dyes they put into the plastic to turn it blue or whatever colour has a risk of leeching from the plastic at elevated temperatures.
> 
> ...


The temperature HDPE can withstand is high,especially the more robust dangerous goods containers, it is the temperature wherein the chemical compounds start to migrate that is the important factor, with the PET drink bottles a bottle of water left in a hot car causes water to become contaminated with chemicals, because someone has been using plastic containers to put hot wort into for years is NO guarantee that they are safe, it can take many years for any noticable health issues to become apparent.


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## hathro (4/12/14)

For those talking about BPA:

BPA is rapidly metabolised in the human body, eliminated as gluciuronide through faeces and urine. It has a half life of 2 hours.
Potential human exposure to BPA is at least 400 times lower than the accepted safe daily limit of 0.05 mg/kg body weight/day established by the United States of America, Environmental Protection Agency
The level of BPA from food that can be passed from pregnant mothers to the fetus is so low it can’t be measured. Researchers fed pregnant rodents 100 to 1000 times more BPA than people are exposed to through food, and could not detect the active form of BPA in the foetus eight hours after the mother’s exposure.
Source: http://nomadity.com.au/Nomadity/Newsroom/Entries/2012/6/15_PCs_and_Bisphenol_A_%28BPA%29.html
Links to published research at the bottom of that link.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (4/12/14)

Sounds like that's stumps


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## brewermp (7/12/14)

Hey just an update on this. Did my first brew in the blue 20l jerry container. With the green and the blue container I first boiled 20l and left overnight just in case some colors leeched. Then put my brew in today. Also for anyone skeptical the containers are hdpe and they are also bpa free. I put 19l in without too much deformity and squeezing.


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## wide eyed and legless (7/12/14)

HDPE plastic rarely contains BPA but chemical migration from HDPE is accelerated by temperature increase, any of those worried by this should probably use a stainless or aluminium container in which to transfer the hot wort, cover and pitch the yeast the following day. But as we are making a carcinogenic toxin, far worse than what might leach from the plastic, why worry about it, unless it alters the taste of the beer.


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