# Apple Cider _ HARD



## DarrenTheDrunk (2/10/20)

Hello all

I have done 2 brews of hard apple cider for 2 friends but I just can not seem to get it right. If anyone (non grain type of brewing) has a good recipe I would...,well 2 friends would be very happy. If you could please include all info including brew mix, temp, co2 and sitting time etc etc. My 2 brews have not been a total failure but they certainly have not been good. A relative sweet brew would be nice.
TIA

CBBE


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## GrumpyPaul (2/10/20)

@DarrenTheDrunk I've only done a few ciders so in far from an expert. 

But I believe that the sugars in apple juice are fully (or at least very close to fully) fermentable. So by the time fermentation is finished you have a pretty dry cider.

So a technique many use is "back sweetening" which generally means adding side sweetening unfermented apple juice at bottling/kegging.

Particularly with kegging. Once the keg is chilled the yeast is becomes dormant and doesn't ferment out.


Do some googling or search on here for "back sweetening"

There's some really easy recipes on ahb somewhere just using store bought juice and yeast to make decent cider.

Anther old thread that is some where that is worth searching for is something to do Werth Aldi Apple cider

So try a se a search for "Aldi cider"

Good luck with it


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## GalBrew (3/10/20)

All you need to make apple cider is apple juice. The issue that you haze is that it always will ferment completely dry and will not be what you are after taste-wise. As mentioned above you will need to ‘back-sweeten’ apple cider to make it more palatable, the problem with that is any sugar source (unfermented apple juice works well) will just kick off fermentation again and you will be back to square one. With this in mind you will need to ‘stabilise’ your cider against refermentation. This requires either pasteurisation or the use of two particular chemicals (potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfite). The act of stabilising a wine (which what cider really is) can be tricky so I recommend searching for this in wine or mead forums/groups etc. as they have a much better handle on this sort of thing.


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## kadmium (3/10/20)

The issue you have when using store bought juice is that you will be left with very little "apple" flavour. 

However, a true hard apple cider like an English style cider should not be back sweetened. Traditional sweet or semi sweet cider is sweetened with Lactose. 

I would avoid back sweetening with juice or fermentable sugar unless you have stabilised it first. While the yeast may go semi dormant at low temps, they will still be active enough to slowly ferment, even in a keg at low temps. This will give it a perpetual yeasty note. 

If you don't like dry cider, then try lactose or try stabilising as mentioned above using sorbate and kmeta. 

Sorbate coats the yeast inhibiting their ability to reproduce. This means you need to stabilise it off the lees. So you need to transfer into keg and then stabilise. The kmeta will scrub o2 and inhibit the yeast further. Combined, they will virtually eliminate the ability for the yeast to ferment. But they don't kill yeast. 

Too much sorbate and you can taste it, so use it according to the right dosage. For kmeta, you really should know the free so2 in solution, but as a rule of thumb I would use something like 0.35g for 20L so you need a very accurate scale. Or you could do 1/2 a campden tablet. The kmeta will also help with shelf-life and oxidation so its ok. 

Potassium sorbate should be added according to ABV, but at a standard cider AbV around 6% I would be adding 3.5g for 20L. It will break down in the presence of alcohol and produce Ethyl Sorbate which gives off celery notes, so if you over do it next time back it off a touch. 


If all this is too complicated, produce a dry cider and have some apple juice to sweeten in the glass for those that like it sweeter. The downside to sweetening in the glass is you end up with a fizzy, apple juice like drink that isn't really cider like. 


In my opinion, a good Bulmers type cider, served over ice and quite tart and dry is hard to beat. For that, I do the following

Preservative free apple juice from Coles or Woolies or Aldi. Make sure preservative free.

Dextrose to boost ABV to what ever you wish. 

For a 5 Gal batch, a cup of tea with 3 tea bags in it. Let it go very strong and dark. This will give tannins which add that mouth puckering tartness and a little complexity. 

For acidity, Malic acid is the acid found in green apples, and gives that apple tartness. Really you should add malic acid depending on the Total Tritable Acid (TTA) using an acid testing kit but a good rule of thumb I have found is about 3 teaspoons for a 5 gallon batch. If it's too much, next time scale it back. 

I highly recommend using yeast nutrients, and use a yeast beast like EC-1118 which will tear through the fermentation. 

All the cider yeast etc is, in my opinion a scam as Apple juice is highly fermentable and I have not found any difference using EC-1118 vs a cider yeast. 

It's pretty cheap to make. Juice is around $1L if on special, some sugar and a few bits n bobs can get a 5g batch for around $30.


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## kadmium (3/10/20)

Here is my apple cider currently on tap.


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## Grmblz (3/10/20)

@kadmium THAT! is a very nice looking glass of cider.
I'm trying to replicate UK South coast (Devon/Dorset) scrumpy, I keep ending up with a nice "commercial" cider, too clean, I'm trying for more of a rough murky farmhouse brew @ 8% ish, any ideas?


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## kadmium (3/10/20)

I would use real apple juice from apples you press yourself. Scrumpy is usually fermented from the yeast found on the apple skins and there is nothing added. Just crush / juice apples, into fermenter and let it rip. It can take several months to fully finish fermenting. 

Its also known as "rough cider" and is ready as soon as it tastes good 

I love scrumptious but have never nailed it. Cider is easier to tweak, and also I don't have a juicer and to get enough juice for 20L is a metric fucktonne of apples.


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## kadmium (3/10/20)

You would need to balance out the apple varieties too. I know that cider apples are definitely not the same as eating apples, they contain more malic acid (hence good for cider) but we may struggle to get the proper English varieties here. 

I know KK started bringing in fresh apple juice not sure where you are located. I have gone to apple orchards before and just bought fresh juice. You could help it along with a neutral yeast like US-05 or a cider type yeast. I probably wouldn't use EC-1118 (contradicting myself from earlier I know) because I think real fresh apple juice would benefit from a lower attenuating, less flocculant yeast than cider as such.


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## Grmblz (4/10/20)

Thanks for the suggestions, I planted a crab apple this year to add to my attempts so that might improve things, but I think you're right about varieties, I'll just have to try and source some cider apple trees. I've got 8 different apple trees but they're all eating varieties, it's a long term project but I'll get there eventually.


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## peterlonz (4/10/20)

kadmium said:


> The issue you have when using store bought juice is that you will be left with very little "apple" flavour.
> 
> However, a true hard apple cider like an English style cider should not be back sweetened. Traditional sweet or semi sweet cider is sweetened with Lactose.
> 
> ...




Yes I have done a few cider brews & none were as good as the UK made stuff I remember from 40 years ago. Traditionally these brews were made "on farm" with cider apples & the result was always high alcohol. I think it may have been called scrumpy in certain regions.
So what to do:
Two options for the beginner (includes me): Use the juice in one of the several cider kits available at the LHBS. Do not use any kit sweetener but do use the yeast nutrient.
Brew in the normal manner & back sweeten the keg with Aldi pear or apple juice (no preservatives!!). Do this carefully to taste. you can always add more but its not possible to take it back. If you don't keg yet just bottle normally adding the amount of sugar you would normally to each bottleWhen secondary bottle fermentation is complete pour into a glass witha small measured quantity of apple juice from plain juice or cordial.
Second option is just use store bought juice (Aldi, no preservatives) add nutrient & brew normally. Backsweeten by one or other of methods above decribed.
You don;t need to know anything else.
Good luck.


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## kadmium (4/10/20)

... to correct a few issues...

1. Adding juice while failing to inhibit yeast activity is not a smart decision for multiple reasons.

2. If you're adding juice to back sweeten, then it doesn't matter if there are preservatives. They use sorbates and sulfites like a normal stabilising process would.

_# Post edited by mods to keep thread on track and remove petty sniping_


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## Grmblz (5/10/20)

Cider makers refer to the "art" of cider making for a reason, imho it's a lot easier to make a pretty good beer than a pretty good cider.
Makers of mead have a handle on cider making, and despite me having 5 hives purely for mead making it remains a dark art.

Edited by moderator.


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## DarrenTheDrunk (6/10/20)

Some great and detailed information here so thank you to everyone. My local HB shop suggested I "back sweeten" with apple juice which I did and when I tasted in immediately, it was still "average" but after 5 days, it seemed to improve significantly to the extent that I am very happy with the outcome. I am but an amateur and like simple solutions so I think at this stage of my learning, I will just keep doing this. Some time down the track I will get a bit more "technical" but as mentioned, I am still very much an apprentice indentured to DAZGORE who not only knows so bloody much (as does Grmblz)...is so very patient...too patient with me IMO. As I have stated before, this site is amazing and for all it is worth, can we all please be kind to fellow brewers and "savor" the diversity of opinions rather than objecting to them. 

Cheers and Beers Big Ears (CBBE)


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## kadmium (6/10/20)

Also, don't forget cider usually matures for months before drinking. Traditionally it was made when the apples fell from the trees and was cellared for long periods of time in the cold. 

Realistically speaking the "cider" I make with just juice etc is more of an Apple Wine (or apfelwein) rather than a traditional cider. 

I think if you add a cup of strong black tea and a few teaspoons of malic acid to your next batch, you will find a definite improvement. The acid goes well even with a backsweetend cider, as it helps cut through the sugar. It leaves it crisp and tart, like a really nice granny smith. Sweet and tart go well together (think lemon meringue)

But yeah, I would say nailing a good cider is harder than getting a good beer. Most homebrew beer if care is taken will be better than megaswill, where as I find the Bulmers and Magners etc, or good local scrumpy is hard to replicate on the home scale. 

An orchard like grmblz is what you need, however with my pregnant missus demanding a small above ground pool in our town house backyard, and the kiddo getting a trampoline for her birthday, I don't even have space for my smoker out there let alone a pot plant!!


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## mayrog (6/10/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> Hello all
> 
> I have done 2 brews of hard apple cider for 2 friends but I just can not seem to get it right. If anyone (non grain type of brewing) has a good recipe I would...,well 2 friends would be very happy. If you could please include all info including brew mix, temp, co2 and sitting time etc etc. My 2 brews have not been a total failure but they certainly have not been good. A relative sweet brew would be nice.
> TIA
> ...


I've read the comments here with interest although I don't understand the brewing terminology yet. My speciality has been distilling which seems far simpler -........................................

Becoming a bit tired of bourbon, gin, etc. I thought I'd try brewing cider. So I bought a 'pack' - i.e. a can of concentrate and a packet of yeast - but that's where my problems began. I have several can openers but none would work on this can. I thought of using an angle grinder but that seemed a bit messy. Eventually I just punched a hole in the can lid with a chisel and got the contents out that way.

I put the concentrate, 1 kg dextrose and the yeast into a 35 litre container and adjusted the temperature to 22-23 and waited for the airlock to bubble after a few days. It didn't. Thinking that maybe something was wrong with the yeast, I added more but this made no difference. It does seem to be slowly fermenting however because the S.G. has dropped down to about 1.000.

Is this normal?

NOTE: Edited by mods to remove distilling instruction /info. Discussion of distilling not permitted on this forum


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## kadmium (6/10/20)

Hey mate, quite often airlock activity is not an indication of fermentation, as a small leak in the fermenter and you probably won't have any airlock activity. An SG of 1.000 indicates it's probably finished or very close to. It may drop below 1.000 but I would think you are pretty much there.


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## mayrog (7/10/20)

kadmium said:


> Hey mate, quite often airlock activity is not an indication of fermentation, as a small leak in the fermenter and you probably won't have any airlock activity. An SG of 1.000 indicates it's probably finished or very close to. It may drop below 1.000 but I would think you are pretty much there.


Thanks Mate, I guessed it had to be a slow leak because it was obviously fermenting. My alco-meter gives an AbV of 9% - would this be accurate or could be showing some error because of it's not being a pure alco/water solution.


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## kadmium (7/10/20)

Without knowing your total volume, concentrate SG and ingredients I couldn't say. 

The most reliable way to measure it is with pre fermentation SG reading (Original Gravity or OG) and then a Final Gravity (FG)

You then use this to determine the ABV as it's independent of volume. 9% is high for a traditional cider and more into the "scrumpy" or rough cider territory!

You can estimate your OG using an online calculator if you share your recipe with me I can help.


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## mayrog (7/10/20)

kadmium said:


> Without knowing your total volume, concentrate SG and ingredients I couldn't say.


I started with 1 kg can of Morgan's Apple Cider concentrate plus 1 kg dextrose in 20 litre. The OG was 1.030 on 20 Sept. it's now still around 1.000 with a minimal amount of gas bubbles in the sample tube.


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## kadmium (7/10/20)

So an OG of 1.030 to 1.000 is about 4% (3.94) so you need to work it out using an ABV calculator, which can be found online. A simple one is:









Alcohol By Volume ABV Calculator | Brewer's Friend


Use our ABV Calculator to show alcohol by volume based on gravity change & eliminate the guess work. Sign up for a free Brewer's Friend account & get brewing!




www.brewersfriend.com





try that and see


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## DarrenTheDrunk (7/10/20)

Well just for information to my fellow friendly brewers, I am going to try and ferment supermarket apple juice with yeast to see WTF it produces. What I am saying is simply turning a 2 liter bottle of soft cider to hard cider. IU have the glass containers and airlocks so why not !! Wish me luck and if you do not see any most posts from me...that shit killed me!!!


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## kadmium (7/10/20)

There used to be a cheap kit that was essentially a balloon and some yeast to ferment it. 

It works out OK but nothing spectacular. A few minor tweaks you can get some good stuff from cheap juice. Its my go to with tannins and malic acid. 

She'll be right mate.


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## Milhouse (8/10/20)

mayrog said:


> Thanks Mate, I guessed it had to be a slow leak because it was obviously fermenting. My alco-meter gives an AbV of 9% - would this be accurate or could be showing some error because of it's not being a pure alco/water solution.



Your alcometer is useless in brewing, it is only accurate with a pure alcohol/water mix. As others suggest the change in specific gravity is the way to calculate ABV. A very important tool as well for determining when fermentation is complete, especially when bottling.


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## GalBrew (8/10/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> Well just for information to my fellow friendly brewers, I am going to try and ferment supermarket apple juice with yeast to see WTF it produces. What I am saying is simply turning a 2 liter bottle of soft cider to hard cider. IU have the glass containers and airlocks so why not !! Wish me luck and if you do not see any most posts from me...that shit killed me!!!



People have been fermenting supermarket apple juice for ages, It will be fine. I have used saf cider yeast with Aldi apple juice many times. It will ferment totally dry (around 0.996 FG) and not taste of very much. If you backsweeten with the same apple juice that you fermented (after stabilising) you will end up with a sweetish, simple cider that while is not particularly complex, is very easy to drink.


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## kadmium (8/10/20)

Also the SG of apple juice is generically around 1.045 which makes for a good ABV just using juice, but a little dextrose can boost it if you wish.


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## Graculus (9/10/20)

GalBrew said:


> People have been fermenting supermarket apple juice for ages, It will be fine. I have used saf cider yeast with Aldi apple juice many times. It will ferment totally dry (around 0.996 FG) *and not taste of very much*. If you backsweeten with the same apple juice that you fermented (after stabilising) you will end up with a sweetish, simple cider that while is not particularly complex, is very easy to drink.


I agree with everything you say there, especially the bit in bold.
I've tried a few things to try and get some flavour into it, but haven't really succeeded.
Although funnily enough I found using an ale yeast gave me a bit more flavour.


For a few dollars more I now buy the Mangrove Jack cider kit. I'm lucky that the bloke I buy my stuff from sells it significantly cheaper than most other places.
In fact I asked him if he could get me one. He got a few in and sold out quite quickly. He thanked me as it's a good seller for him.

*GalBrew *I see you're in East Melbourne. How are you going during lockdown? Hopefully restrictions will be eased soon.
If you can find somewhere that sells Bickfords Cloudy Apple cordial it's not a bad drop. Add a dash to your glass before pouring the cider. I had to contact Bickfords to find where to buy it. Only one stockist in my area.


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## mayrog (9/10/20)

Graculus said:


> For a few dollars more I now buy the Mangrove Jack cider kit.


I think I saw in the Mangrove Jack instructions advice to leave new bottles in a warm place for 2 weeks before opening. Is this to allow the residual yeast time to properly carbonate the sugar added at the bottling?


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## philrob (9/10/20)

Yes.


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## mayrog (9/10/20)

philrob said:


> Yes.


Thanks


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## kadmium (9/10/20)

I personally used to wait for 3 weeks when I bottled. Also, bear in mind that Cider benefits from a longer aging and cooler temps (think England, big barrels of cider down in the cellars over autumn / winter) so 3 weeks would really be on the fast end for a cider in my own experience. I usually treat it like a lager when I keg them and let sit in the cold for about 3 weeks before starting. By the end (usually another few weeks) is when it's hitting it's stride. I should be more patient but then again I'm in Sicktoria so not much to do but drink...


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## DarrenTheDrunk (9/10/20)

GalBrew said:


> People have been fermenting supermarket apple juice for ages, It will be fine. I have used saf cider yeast with Aldi apple juice many times. It will ferment totally dry (around 0.996 FG) and not taste of very much. If you backsweeten with the same apple juice that you fermented (after stabilising) you will end up with a sweetish, simple cider that while is not particularly complex, is very easy to drink.



Thanks GalBrew. What do you mean by letting it "stabilise". Sorry but I am still a first year apprentice.


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## GalBrew (10/10/20)

DarrenTheDrunk said:


> Thanks GalBrew. What do you mean by letting it "stabilise". Sorry but I am still a first year apprentice.



Stabilising is adding Potassium metabisulfite (K-MET) and potassium sorbate to your cider to prevent any refermentation from the new sugar source added. I recommend reading up on this as it can be tricky. K-MET additions are pH dependent and sorbate additions are ABV depenent.


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## GalBrew (10/10/20)

Graculus said:


> I agree with everything you say there, especially the bit in bold.
> I've tried a few things to try and get some flavour into it, but haven't really succeeded.
> Although funnily enough I found using an ale yeast gave me a bit more flavour.
> 
> ...



Lockdown is very boring, at least I have beer to brew. Hopefully we all get set free soon, at least the kids go back to school! 

I've seen the cordial but have never tried it out, I just ended up using the same juice to bring the ABV down to about 4.5% and it works out to a nice flavour.


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## DarrenTheDrunk (10/10/20)

GalBrew said:


> Stabilising is adding Potassium metabisulfite (K-MET) and potassium sorbate to your cider to prevent any refermentation from the new sugar source added. I recommend reading up on this as it can be tricky. K-MET additions are pH dependent and sorbate additions are ABV depenent.




Thanks for that. Should I be doing this with the apple cider I put into kegs cos I did not for the first brew I did and it was fine (I think)


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## kadmium (10/10/20)

I literally went into detail about it in this very thread, its the 3rd reply. 






Apple Cider _ HARD


Hello all I have done 2 brews of hard apple cider for 2 friends but I just can not seem to get it right. If anyone (non grain type of brewing) has a good recipe I would...,well 2 friends would be very happy. If you could please include all info including brew mix, temp, co2 and sitting time...




aussiehomebrewer.com





Stabilising is the only way to be pretty sure fermentation is over and won't continue if you add sugar. Even in a keg it will continue to ferment at low temps, causing perpetual yeasty fermentation notes that may or may not be desirable. 

I also went into detail for you on how to liven up a cheap aldi juice brew, using malic acid and tea.


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