# Bakers yeast



## mrsupraboy (11/4/14)

Does anyone use it to make beer. Cause in spirits I know they use is to make neutrals so that would mean a neutral yeast wouldn't it


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## tyoung (11/4/14)

I think Basic Brewing did a podcast/vidcast about this a while ago.... Making beer with bread yeast and vice versa. You might find the details on their site.


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## Spiesy (11/4/14)

mrsupraboy said:


> Does anyone use it to make beer. Cause in spirits I know they use is to make neutrals so that would mean a neutral yeast wouldn't it


Don't subject your beer to inferior yeast that is not intended to produce beer. 

Use beer yeast, and use it as the manufacturer recommends. I think the results more than justify the extra couple of dollars.


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## NewtownClown (11/4/14)

Yes. If you want unpredictable results - more than likely nasty beer
Both are Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Just like a Greyhound and a Doberman are both dogs but have evolved differently to achieve different tasks


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## sp0rk (11/4/14)

Another thing with Baker's yeast is that it's usually a mix of many different strains
Whereas Brewer's yeast (for the most part) is a single strain
This means all those different strains in the Baker's yeast will all throw off different conflicting flavours that are distinct to those certain strains
Though keep in mind this can sometimes be welcome/useful in things like Mead and Kvass


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## Danwood (11/4/14)

I have used it in small (5L) batches of mead with good results, but I wouldn't use it in beer. There's too much hard work involved with beer to risk it all at the last hurdle. 
Mead is quick, easy and the honey is free, so I'm less invested in it.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (11/4/14)

I have a endless supply of bakers yeast. 
I use upwards of 40kg per week of the stuff. 
I go to the extreme if not even going unto my brewery after work because I don't want to cross contaminate it. 
I'm not certain about miltistrain yeast in my bread but it doesn't sound correct, I will ask my sale rep. 
I've used beer yeast in bread though and it works almost as good as normal bakers yeast at 28deg it really kicks along. 
My 2.342 cents. 


I do have a question tho that's almost off topic.

I've read on here about adding used beer yeast in the last ten minutes of the boil to give the yeastes some extra nutrition. 
Is this true?
And could I add bakers yeast for this. 
It's more general interest Tbh as I'm shit scared of getting a bread yeast outbreak in the brewery.


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## TimT (11/4/14)

_Mead is quick, easy and the honey is free, so I'm less invested in it._

Danwood, by that I'm assuming you mean you have a beehive, so the honey is 'free' because you can just take it. Well yeah sort of. That's where we get our honey from too but for me that makes it even more valuable. The bees collect this stuff over months of hardwork, are willing to die for it (when they sting they die), and taking it out does quite some damage to their carefully tended hive. So bloody oath I want to make the best mead I can!


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## TimT (11/4/14)

When I first read the JAO recipe on gotmead.com they specifically said the recipe was designed for people to use ingredients they'd find in the common kitchen in a way that would quickly give them a tasty mead. And that it does, partly because the baker's yeast just can't tolerate much alcohol. That said, I wouldn't imagine it would give much character to a mead beyond that.

I usually add a spot of old yeast/dregs from a previous fermentation to my wort during the boil. Not so fastidious about when I add it though - usually just chuck it in right at the start. Just a pinch. I'm sure it does something for the health of the yeast in the fermentation - nutrients and all that - though my method isn't scientific, to say the least, so I'm not sure whether I could produce records to back it up.

Some brewers add Vegemite to the boil! (Same reason - it's dead yeast. )


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## Spiesy (11/4/14)

Call me crazy, but I use yeast nutrients for yeast nutrients.


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## Danwood (11/4/14)

TimT said:


> _Mead is quick, easy and the honey is free, so I'm less invested in it._
> 
> Danwood, by that I'm assuming you mean you have a beehive, so the honey is 'free' because you can just take it. Well yeah sort of. That's where we get our honey from too but for me that makes it even more valuable. The bees collect this stuff over months of hardwork, are willing to die for it (when they sting they die), and taking it out does quite some damage to their carefully tended hive. So bloody oath I want to make the best mead I can!


I use honey I get from my FIL, a commercial apiarist near Mildura. I haven't seen it harvested. I'd appreciate the process more if I had, I'm sure.

And, as with many of nature's marvels humans have bent to their will, it deserves greater respect. 
So I'll agree with your point to some degree.

However, that isn't to say I'm not happy with my batches so far. I belive they hold up very well when compared with commercial sweet meads.

I haven't tried alternative yeasts, I plan to, and maybe they will be better, but I'm happy with my efforts up until now. 

Anyway, to OP, if you're still curious, maybe ferment a small portion of your next wort with bread yeast in a 5l bottle or some such.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (11/4/14)

Spiesy said:


> Call me crazy, but I use yeast nutrients for yeast nutrients.


Yes bought 400g off cb last month. I don't want to risk contamination,the bakers yeast is free. 
But I'm shoure getting rid of a brewery infection wouldn't be.


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## MHB (11/4/14)

Scooby Tha Newbie said:


> Snip
> I've read on here about adding used beer yeast in the last ten minutes of the boil to give the yeastes some extra nutrition.
> Is this true?
> And could I add bakers yeast for this.
> It's more general interest Tbh as I'm shit scared of getting a bread yeast outbreak in the brewery.


Soylent Green for yeast hum...
If you are old enough to get the reference, it might help some as a nutrient but its far from a balanced diet
Proper yeast nutrients are a far better choice
Mark


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## TimT (11/4/14)

I think it's often suggested to add yeast in combination with yeast nutrient. The dead yeast adds something, the nutrient adds something else. In some brands of yeast nutrient they add dead yeast anyway.


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## manticle (11/4/14)

It is often suggested. What MHB is saying is that it contains only a bit of what yeast really require for optimum functionality.


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## dent (11/4/14)

ITT: noone who has brewed with bread yeast. 

That's it, one of my cubes is getting a 1/4 tin of Lowan's finest. I'll report results in a couple weeks.


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## Kevlar84 (11/4/14)

Good luck dent. I look forward to the result.


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## manticle (12/4/14)

dent said:


> ITT: noone who has brewed with bread yeast.
> 
> That's it, one of my cubes is getting a 1/4 tin of Lowan's finest. I'll report results in a couple weeks.


Pretty sure it's used a fair bit for jao and was used a fair bit maybe as early as 70s for HB beer.


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## Spiesy (12/4/14)

dent said:


> ITT: noone who has brewed with bread yeast.
> 
> That's it, one of my cubes is getting a 1/4 tin of Lowan's finest. I'll report results in a couple weeks.


You're game.


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## QldKev (12/4/14)

dent said:


> ITT: noone who has brewed with bread yeast.
> 
> That's it, one of my cubes is getting a 1/4 tin of Lowan's finest. I'll report results in a couple weeks.


Which type of beer? I'm just thinking along the line of something like a S23 would not make a nice IPA, not the yeasts issue, just mismatched to the beer style. I think Lowans could make a good drop in something like an Aussie Pale, even thinking bread-iness with Marris Otter, or possibly in a Belguim style? I don't think it would be good on a lager. I guess knowing the strains taste will come in handy after the first batch. The chemist from Lowans said it is grown on a molasses substrate, and recommends fermenting at 30c (yes thirty Celsius). The ferment temperature could also lean the beer style into Saison world.


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## Maheel (12/4/14)

i've also found lowans etc likes it very much at about +-28'c and if your below 20 it slows right down

it pretty tolerant to abuse but....


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## Danwood (12/4/14)

dent said:


> ITT: noone who has brewed with bread yeast.
> 
> That's it, one of my cubes is getting a 1/4 tin of Lowan's finest. I'll report results in a couple weeks.


Not the RIS cube !


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## jphowman (12/4/14)

I've read on here about adding used beer yeast in the last ten minutes of the boil to give the yeastes some extra nutrition. 
Is this true?

IIRC one of the White brothers was asked about this on one of the Sessions. They didn't rate it too highly. The boil will kill the yeast but doesn't explode the cell, leaving most of the nutrients trapped inside.


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## QldKev (12/4/14)

Dead yeast is also an incomplete nutrient, so in my opinion it's a waste of time. Real yeast nutrient is very cheap.


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## NewtownClown (12/4/14)

Spiesy said:


> Call me crazy, but I use yeast nutrients for yeast nutrients.


... and many of those packaged nutrients contain yeast hulls. As stated, they are not a complete "diet", however they are better than none
I think the idea of their usefulness has come from wine production where they get used for stuck ferments


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## QldKev (12/4/14)

Getting back ontopic...

It will be interesting to see what dent comes back with for tasting on this. I've been wanting to do a beer on bread yeasts for a couple of years as it had been talked about many times on here, and most people have seemed against it. Next time I ferment something that I think would suit it, I'm thinking of throwing a few liters in a small container and pitching some Lowans to do a side by side. I think the first one may not be the best it will be more about learning the yeast style.


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## dent (12/4/14)

I've got a cube with brown malt and bittering hops only which should be pretty forgiving for any wierd yeasty efforts. I'll swing past the store today for a fresh tin - don't think I'll use the one I've been dipping a flour-y spoon into. Interesting info about the fermenting temperature - I'll stick with normal ale temps unless it shows signs of slowing down too much.


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## Midnight Brew (12/4/14)

Sounds like a good experiment. Possibly something where the yeast will shine so pils/ale malt 100% then a bittering and flavour addition of something clean (I'm thinking magnum) then let the yeast do its thing. Then could also split it further and do different temps.


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## TimT (12/4/14)

_i've also found lowans etc likes it very much at about +-28'c and if your below 20 it slows right down_


Yeah, we make bread fairly regularly. And I've observed in these cooler months that the action of the yeast on the dough is much less vigorous than in the warmer months we've just had. Could be a good ambient temperature beer to try; I like Queensland Kev's theory that it could end up having saison qualities.


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## Bribie G (12/4/14)

When I ran a LHBS in the late 1970s in Maryborough, a common brew was Saunders Malt and Tandaco bread yeast. Made beer. Sort of.
With absolutely no temperature control in Central Queensland I can imagine that the fermentation temps actually favoured bread yeast.


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## technobabble66 (13/4/14)

QldKev said:


> Dead yeast is also an incomplete nutrient, so in my opinion it's a waste of time. Real yeast nutrient is very cheap.


Can this be explained, please.
We require nutrients to make more yeast cells, so we're talking about breaking up dead yeast cells to provide those nutrient. To make more cells. So surely the dead ones will have the nutrients required to make new ones, or am i missing something here? Or are there particular rate-limiting nutrients supplied by the Nutrient supplements? 
As a nutritionalist, i'm thinking along the lines of human supplements (~yeast nutrient supplement) just boosting a few nutrients, whereas real whole foods (~ dead yeast cells) boost the full spectrum of nutrients.
Obviously there is an issue of one dead cell only provides the nutrition for 1 new cell, so i can see there's a need to use lots of dead yeast cells to provide for lots of new cells. Is the Yeast Nutrient supposedly providing a boost to 1 or 2 key (undersupplied) nutrients?

Apologies for being :icon_offtopic:


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## peas_and_corn (13/4/14)

Yeast consume nutrients such as vitamins, they don't just get stored up, there's a reason the yeast needs it in the first place. Humans need vitamin c, but if you killed your neighbor and ate him, you won't get much vitamin c from his corpse.


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## TimT (13/4/14)

I often find talk about yeast nutrient very confusing. Yeast need nitrogen. Also oxygen. Hang on, they need free amino nitrogen. Yeast love folate! etc, etc. Sorry, but for a non-scientific person such as myself (I've forgotten more than I ever knew about chemistry!), the tossing about of terms makes the subject quite difficult to deal with. The somewhat cavalier way these terms get tossed out doesn't exactly lead brewers into outright contradiction, but it can lead to conflicting advice (check out the Northern Brewer blog where they recommend *not* rehydrating dry yeast because it strips the yeast of some of the free amino nitrogen) or outright error (I once said on these forums 'free ammonium nitrate' instead of 'free amino nitrogen', and got the reply 'Pretty sure you are not looking for ammonium nitrate. Thats what I use at work mixed with diesel to make things explode'! Whoopsie!) So often, we have to resort to educated guesswork.

It reminds me of HIllaire Belloc's words about the microbe:

_Oh! Let no-one ever ever doubt_
_What nobody is sure about! _


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## manticle (13/4/14)

That's one guy in that blog with some fairly out of place assertions and nothing to back them up.

When he (not 'they') recommended avoiding vorlauf because you will create HSA and encourage stuck fermentations and gushers, I lost interest.

Yeast need various things for optimum function. Some of these are contained naturally in the mash (magnesium and FAN for example) some aren't (like zinc for example). Yeast nutrient is one, easy thing to add that can help and will not harm your brew. The science around it is not that complicated, depending on how far you wish to delve.


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## QldKev (13/4/14)

The way I understand it, dead yeast cells are sources for sterols and unsaturated fatty acids. But as mentioned above there are many other vitamins and minerals such as phosphate they don't store, hence the need for another supplement. 

This is a cool read


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/4/14)

TimT said:


> , but it can lead to conflicting advice (check out the Northern Brewer blog where they recommend *not* rehydrating dry yeast because it strips the yeast of some of the free amino nitrogen)



Noooooo.......dont tell them hydraters....could end up with 11 pages of epicness...


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## mrsupraboy (13/4/14)

We're at 4 so far Iol


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/4/14)

You should read the "other" thread....


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## pk.sax (13/4/14)

What about a drop of olive oil?

Seen bread yeast go mental when I added a drop in their dying party...


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## technobabble66 (13/4/14)

This is very OT, so apologies! But I'm on the phone & couldn't easily find a better thread to post it. 
I found this in a wine site while reading about yeast nutrition. It could be relevant in general yeast health, but especially in high OG brews:

During fermentation the yeast membrane becomes affected by alcohol and becomes more and more permeable or “leaky” as the alcohol content increases. This makes it more difficult for the yeast to take up and retain nitrogen as the fermentation progresses. Making the yeast membrane stronger at the start of fermentation can reduce the permeability problem. This can be improved by the presence of oxygen, which enables the yeast to make more survival factors such as sterols and long chain fatty acids that protect the membrane.

From:
http://www.vintessential.com.au/resources/articles/yeast-nutrition-and-successful-fermentations.html


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## dent (13/4/14)

Well it's in. I hope you guys appreciate my noble sacrifice.


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## MHB (13/4/14)

Ok I read the whole thread and am still wondering why?
If I was making Alcohol (neutral spirit) I wouldn't use bread yeast I would use a neutral spirit yeast, for something like Scotch, a whisky yeast, for a Schnapps a dedicated fruit yeast, all of which are fairly available.
When I make beer the yeast is as much a part of the recipe as is the malt and the mashing regime, be buggered if I'm spending 4-5 hours putting together a cracking good APA and the ruining it with Champaign yeast, or baking yeast, or for that matter a good Belgian or even a great Hefeweizen yeast, they just aren’t right for the job.
The only thing I can think of is that some might think it’s cheaper than real beer yeast, but nothing you can save in the cost of ingredients can come close to paying for the time invested, so all I care about is how good the beer tastes.
Mark


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## Bribie G (13/4/14)

Lowan, I wondered where I'd heard the name.

Lowan honey-O's breakfast cereal ... lived on that shyte when I used to do half marathons.


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## dent (13/4/14)

MHB said:


> Ok I read the whole thread and am still wondering why?


Oh yeah I'm inclined to agree. IF this yeast doesn't suck altogether and IF it actually has some kind of possibly desirable flavour profile _maybe _then it would be a good tool to have at hand. Maybe I'll strike gold and find it is awesome to put 200g of cheap dry yeast in to get a good pitching rate for a 12% RIS (probably not).

But mainly for me it is "Because _it was there_". And I had a few beers at the time.


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## QldKev (13/4/14)

MHB said:


> Ok I read the whole thread and am still wondering why?
> If I was making Alcohol (neutral spirit) I wouldn't use bread yeast I would use a neutral spirit yeast, for something like Scotch, a whisky yeast, for a Schnapps a dedicated fruit yeast, all of which are fairly available.
> When I make beer the yeast is as much a part of the recipe as is the malt and the mashing regime, be buggered if I'm spending 4-5 hours putting together a cracking good APA and the ruining it with Champaign yeast, or baking yeast, or for that matter a good Belgian or even a great Hefeweizen yeast, they just aren’t right for the job.
> The only thing I can think of is that some might think it’s cheaper than real beer yeast, but nothing you can save in the cost of ingredients can come close to paying for the time invested, so all I care about is how good the beer tastes.
> Mark



Posted as Kev, not as a mod...

You mentioned _"If I was making Alcohol (neutral spirit) I wouldn't use bread yeast I would use a neutral spirit yeast, for something like Scotch, a whisky yeast, for a Schnapps a dedicated fruit yeast, all of which are fairly available."_ . Have you tried this with the Lowans yeast or is it just you don't like the theory?. We are talking about a specific beer test and the outcomes on the subject, it may prove positive, it may not. Would BIAB ever got of the ground based on theory? I'm aware that neutrals on another forum recommend Lowans for a TPW (neutral), we really should not discuss that subject here so lets consider it dropped and get back to brewing beer.


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## MHB (13/4/14)

Well yes it would/did, I remember Thirsty and myself among others helping PistolPatch as much as we could, because it was an interesting idea that had merit and there was a god theoretical framework for it to work within!
I also understand the temptation to experiment but over the years I have had all sorts of concoctions made with everything imaginable (including baking yeast) brought into my shop for appraisal. It has reached the point where if you want my opinion on a beer, you bring it in cold and you have to drink it to - filters out the real shockers.

I asked why? Why would anyone want to do this to a beer, I think anyone who knows anything about brewing knows how important yeast is. there is an old saying among brewers "we make wort - yeast makes beer"

Still asking why, I don't understand the motivation, probably the worst thing about owning a home brew shop is that you tend to get far too few opportunities to brew so when I do I want good beer and for me part of making good beer is choosing a good and appropriate yeast - that's all
Mark


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## QldKev (13/4/14)

"we make wort - yeast makes beer." I agree 100% with this saying

We do control yeast health when it comes to hydration, pitching rates, o2 levels, wort nutrient levels, temperatures, etc That's why I've become so interested in when an experienced brewer such as dent is happy to experiment. My first brew ever, brewed in summer was not the best and I don't blame the yeast strain, it was my handling of it. The first time they dropped US-05 into a beer and if it was a lager, did they experiement to prove what a great neutral ale yeast it would be?

It doesn't matter what yeast you have if the beer is full of infection or brewed on the back patio in summer you get poor results.

I understand it is pretty easy to pick the yeast from what the yeast manufacturers recommend for the style and make a great beer given the correct handling. It is a safe way to proceed and for those of us that don't want to risk loosing a few cubes on experiments, it is awesome to have the work done. But I do think there may be some yeasts that maybe the suppliers of the main beer yeasts don't want us touching as they don't own the market for them.

So to me if you have the time and happy to experiment to try, that is the motivation. In this case if dent's beer produces crap results I feel based on his brewing experience happy to accept the outcome.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (13/4/14)

I tried a local beer in a village brewery in Lithuania called boiko.
I believe its made with a bread yeast. it was probably the pic of the beers which are traditional/farmhouse there.
I was so impressed that I gave the yeast to Pro culture for their yeast bank. Apparently the Boiko yeast is much smaller than your typical brewing yeasts.
Some times you just have to try something a bit different.
Nev


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## dent (17/4/14)

OK preview fermenter tasting -

Seems like it has fermented out. I started it at 5 degrees, let it get to 15 degrees for active ferment, then ramped it to 20 a couple days ago. 

Attenuation seems more than adequate. Actually was a bit dough-y on the nose first up (believe it or not) but on further examination yielded the usual bunch of early ferment stinks. On tasting wasn't bad at all; It is beer -- if someone handed me the same glass from the 4 or 5 day old fermenter telling me it was notto or whatever I wouldn't disbelieve them. I've certainly had worse crimes done to me by proper brewing yeasts over the years. 

It is very early days. I'll give it another week at 20 to finish up, then I'll keg it and have another taste then.

Not dead yet!


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## dent (2/5/14)

Results are in


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## Not For Horses (2/5/14)

More importantly though, would you do it again?


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## dent (2/5/14)

I don't think it is better than regular brewing yeast in any way apart from low cost and abundance. So, given that, I think it is a good thing to have as a backup on the shelf in case your regular yeast is unhealthy for whatever reason, or perhaps as a huge amount of yeast for a high ABV beer.


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## Not For Horses (2/5/14)

So your next assignment is to find it's alcohol tolerance and report back


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## manticle (2/5/14)

Next assignment is making bread with 1469.


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## pk.sax (2/5/14)

manticle said:


> Next assignment is making bread with 1469.


Are you a brew bread virgin?


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## Spiesy (2/5/14)

dent said:


> I don't think it is better than regular brewing yeast in any way apart from low cost and abundance. So, given that, I think it is a good thing to have as a backup on the shelf in case your regular yeast is unhealthy for whatever reason, or perhaps as a huge amount of yeast for a high ABV beer.


If it's inferior to regular brewing yeast, why not keep regular brewing yeast as backup?


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## dent (2/5/14)

Fair point, but I would tend to use it at some point, rather than have it sit there forever getting worse. At least with the bread yeast you can compensate for any decreased viability by putting a shitload in.


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## QldKev (3/5/14)

Not For Horses said:


> So your next assignment is to find it's alcohol tolerance and report back


18% but the last couple % you are stressing the yeast a lot, so it will ferment slowly and tend to need the temperature raised a bit. I'd keep it under 14% if you want a good product. 

With the outcome by dent, I'm planning an aussie pale to 4% with the yeast, but without filtering.


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