# Salt Additons



## Renzo (28/7/11)

Gday all,

Can anyone shed light on salt additions. If using distilled/RO water do you scale the salt additions according to the *Total amount of liquor used* or the *amount at pre-boil*. I realise adding a % to the mash and then remainder to the kettle is the way to go but not sure on wether to scale to HLT volume ( i.e amount of liquor for both mash and sparge) or pre-boil volume. I'll sparge with distilled/RO only. E.g for a 22 litre batch post boil I might need 38litres liquor but pre-boil is 32 litres. Cheers.


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## Wolfy (28/7/11)

Renzo said:


> do you scale the salt additions according to the *Total amount of liquor used* or the *amount at pre-boil*.


... or how about the total post boil (fermentation) volume?


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## Renzo (28/7/11)

Wolfy said:


> ... or how about the total post boil (fermentation) volume?



I'd say definitely not post boil as the intention is to create a water profile aimed at the mash and to some extent sulphate chloride ratio for the boil. All the talk in the jamil/palmer waterganza podcast (and other sites) was about pre-boil but I can't work out if it means actual pre-boil or total liquor used. I get that either way the additions are all about balancing PH etc but scaling to HLT volume or kettle volume affects the alkilinity & SRM amongst other things.

Just to clarify here's a Burton profile with salt addtion based on 19 litres pre-boil. Question is it actual pre-boil or HLT volume? Frfom here does one scale to say 38litre HLT or 32 pre-boil ( 6liters in soaked grain left behind) 

Burton Pale Ale -- A toned-down, "idealized" profile. Enough sulphate to bring out the hops without overdoing it. Low alkalinity helps ensure proper mash pH. Model: Moshers 'Ideal Pale Ale". 1 gram baking soda, 1 gram canning salt, 3.5 grams Epsom salt, 9 grams gypsum. Ca=111, SO4=337, Mg=18, Na=35, Cl=32, CO3=38, Hardness=352, Alkalinity=31.


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## Brad Churchill (28/7/11)

I am pretty sure I remember reading in How to Brew that it is your total volume. In this case 38 L.
The way I see it is if you are trying to recreate London's water profile for example then you would be looking at adjusting the entire quantity of the water used to that profile because if you were brewing in London then that is the profile of the water you are using.

Cheers
Brad 




Renzo said:


> Gday all,
> 
> Can anyone shed light on salt additions. If using distilled/RO water do you scale the salt additions according to the *Total amount of liquor used* or the *amount at pre-boil*. I realise adding a % to the mash and then remainder to the kettle is the way to go but not sure on wether to scale to HLT volume ( i.e amount of liquor for both mash and sparge) or pre-boil volume. I'll sparge with distilled/RO only. E.g for a 22 litre batch post boil I might need 38litres liquor but pre-boil is 32 litres. Cheers.


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## Renzo (28/7/11)

Brad C said:


> I am pretty sure I remember reading in How to Brew that it is your total volume. In this case 38 L.
> The way I see it is if you are trying to recreate London's water profile for example then you would be looking at adjusting the entire quantity of the water used to that profile because if you were brewing in London then that is the profile of the water you are using.
> 
> Cheers
> Brad



Cheers mate.

That's what I thought too and am leaning towards. But the confusing thing is that if I calculate on 38 litres and say for example add 12 litres worth of salts to the mash 
(depending on water/grain ration) and then 16 to the kettle that would equal 38 litres in total but there's only 32 litres in the actual kettle so maybe I might be in danger of oversh0oting the kettle additon if I base it off 38 litres. It's got me stuffed.


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## Filby (28/7/11)

Wouldnt you just mix up 38lt and the salts in the HLT and then go about your normal way of brewing? Seems to be overly complicated trying to do it per fraction of water in the different stages.
Also you have written 12+16=38 (=28) or im not reading it right.


Fil


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## eamonnfoley (28/7/11)

Renzo said:


> Gday all,
> 
> Can anyone shed light on salt additions. If using distilled/RO water do you scale the salt additions according to the *Total amount of liquor used* or the *amount at pre-boil*. I realise adding a % to the mash and then remainder to the kettle is the way to go but not sure on wether to scale to HLT volume ( i.e amount of liquor for both mash and sparge) or pre-boil volume. I'll sparge with distilled/RO only. E.g for a 22 litre batch post boil I might need 38litres liquor but pre-boil is 32 litres. Cheers.



Total amount of water used. Mash & sparge. Thats how it would be if a certain water profile was coming out of your tap. An easy way is to put the mash+sparge amount of salts in your mash, and sparge with RO water. That way your PH stays constant during the sparge.


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## MattC (29/7/11)

Renzo, have you seen this file? Its the water chemistry spreadsheet from palmers website. I use it to determine how much of each slat i will add based on my source water (in your case RO water) and the type of beer im brewing (target RA).

Cheers 

View attachment Palmers_water_spreadsheet.xls


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## Renzo (29/7/11)

Filby said:


> Wouldnt you just mix up 38lt and the salts in the HLT and then go about your normal way of brewing? Seems to be overly complicated trying to do it per fraction of water in the different stages.
> Also you have written 12+16=38 (=28) or im not reading it right.
> 
> 
> Fil




Apologies I meant 38. 

Some salts namely chalk don't dissolve in the HLT.


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## seamad (29/7/11)

When I was asking about salt additions someone on the forum gave me this link:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-w...-primer-198460/

I found it very useful and well worth the read ( it's fairly long)

cheers


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## Renzo (29/7/11)

foles said:


> Total amount of water used. Mash & sparge. Thats how it would be if a certain water profile was coming out of your tap. An easy way is to put the mash+sparge amount of salts in your mash, and sparge with RO water. That way your PH stays constant during the sparge.



No worries about the sparge with RO water but adding all the salts to the mash I thought would affect the RA.


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## Renzo (29/7/11)

MattC said:


> Renzo, have you seen this file? Its the water chemistry spreadsheet from palmers website. I use it to determine how much of each slat i will add based on my source water (in your case RO water) and the type of beer im brewing (target RA).
> 
> Cheers




Cheers, I'll check that out


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## Renzo (29/7/11)

seamad said:


> When I was asking about salt additions someone on the forum gave me this link:
> 
> http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-w...-primer-198460/
> 
> ...



It all seems so simple now. Cheers for that.


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## MHB (29/7/11)

RO water would be the worst possible choice for sparging.
The lower the ion concentration and the hotter the more likely you are to extract tannins, which is exactly the conditions you are creating with most peoples sparge conditions.
Even if you did no other water chemistry, getting the pH right and at a minimum 50-75 ppm of calcium into your sparge water will be a bid help.
MHB


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## argon (29/7/11)

I'd recommend getting yourself a free copy of EZWaterCalculator it's super easy to use and takes into account your current profile (RO is void of everything so that's easy) volumes, grainbill and SRM. I use it in conjunction with Beersmith and makes the water profiling very easy.


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## Renzo (29/7/11)

MHB said:


> RO water would be the worst possible choice for sparging.
> The lower the ion concentration and the hotter the more likely you are to extract tannins, which is exactly the conditions you are creating with most people's sparge conditions.
> Even if you did no other water chemistry, getting the pH right and at a minimum 50-75 ppm of calcium into your sparge water will be a bid help.
> MHB




I thought the same as well, but heard others say that it makes no difference i.e sparging with RO


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## Renzo (29/7/11)

argon said:


> I'd recommend getting yourself a free copy of EZWaterCalculator it's super easy to use and takes into account your current profile (RO is void of everything so that's easy) volumes, grainbill and SRM. I use it in conjunction with Beersmith and makes the water profiling very easy.




I've been using the calculator at Brewers friend http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/ which is similar but doesn't take into account the grain. The article link that seamad posted throws a whole new spin on things however.


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## Fourstar (29/7/11)

MHB said:


> RO water would be the worst possible choice for sparging.
> The lower the ion concentration and the hotter the more likely you are to extract tannins, which is exactly the conditions you are creating with most peoples sparge conditions.
> Even if you did no other water chemistry, getting the pH right and at a minimum 50-75 ppm of calcium into your sparge water will be a bid help.
> MHB




Listen to the man! 

When you're using RO water, I'd suggest adding at least a few of L of your standard water to get some trace elements there (unless its completely OTT with carbonates e.g. 300ppm+ then reduce it to 1-2L of your total water)

Assume the rest of your minerals/salts are 0 or close to treat it like Melbournes water. For 20-23L batches a max total of 10g calcium based salts will get you in the ballparks you need for the beer profiles you desire.

majority CaCl2 with a minority Caso4 = malty beers
the inverse = hoppy beers.

I usually go for a ratio of 2:1 adding the smaller ratio to my mash and the greater to the boil kettle. In your instance using RO water, I'd add the kettle ratio to your sparge water.


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## Bribie G (29/7/11)

I do full volume BIAB and add my salts to the mash (i.e. mix them in with the dry grain) as they dissolve more easily in the lower pH provided by the mash, and I add enough to treat the entire water volume as if it's Pilsen Water or London Water whatever. My main salts are Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulphate. I rarely if ever use Gypsum - but do note that CaCl2 and MgSO4 will dissolve readily in hot water anyway, almost like sugar. Gypsum might be a bit of a problem for spargers - can it be pre-dissolved using say citric acid or something, or would that bind the ions somehow?
After all it's the ions that we are after, not the salts themselves which are just the precursors.


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## Fourstar (29/7/11)

Bribie G said:


> Gypsum might be a bit of a problem for spargers - can it be pre-dissolved using say citric acid or something, or would that bind the ions somehow?




Gypsum is fine as long as there are low carbonates in your water (Melbournes water it dissolves readily without any problems). Chalk on the other hand (which really requires a lowered pH struggles without the use of an acid.)


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## eamonnfoley (1/8/11)

MHB said:


> RO water would be the worst possible choice for sparging.
> The lower the ion concentration and the hotter the more likely you are to extract tannins, which is exactly the conditions you are creating with most people's sparge conditions.
> Even if you did no other water chemistry, getting the pH right and at a minimum 50-75 ppm of calcium into your sparge water will be a bid help.
> MHB



Can't see where your going with this? If you have proper mash PH and the chosen minerals in your mash, the minerals will just dilute into the pre-boil wort after sparging. So if you treat the mash only and have for example 150ppm Ca in mash, you will end up with say 75ppm in pre-boil wort. Sparging with soft or RO water will ensure PH doesnt creep up because there is no alkalinity, which will prevent the extraction of tannins which generally only happens at a high ph.

Saying RO isnt good for sparging is like saying naturally soft water (i.e. Pilsen or Melbourne) is no good for sparging.


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## MHB (7/8/11)

I think the point is that you need to maintain a good pH and mineral salt profile during both the mash and the sparge. When you start to run off you are removing the salts you added to the mash (well what is left of them). If you sparge with un adjusted water the chance of extracting tannins will rise with RO water being so pure the odds will skyrocket.

This is a good read View attachment 08___The_role_of_pH.pdf

Snippet from above link
The husk of the malt contains polyphenol and silica compounds which are more easily extracted under alkaline (pH > 7.0) conditions. Polyphenols can produce a colloidal instability and astringency in the beer. Most of the polyphenols are extracted during the latter stages of sparging. It is important to ensure all brewing water is at least neutral or slightly acidic. Some brewers add mineral salts to all the brewing water including the sparge to maintain a lower pH thus avoiding this risk.
MHB


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## eamonnfoley (7/8/11)

MHB said:


> I think the point is that you need to maintain a good pH and mineral salt profile during both the mash and the sparge. When you start to run off you are removing the salts you added to the mash (well what is left of them). If you sparge with un adjusted water the chance of extracting tannins will rise with RO water being so pure the odds will skyrocket.



You will only extract tannins if you have alkalinity in the sparge water, driving up PH. Alkalinity is zero with RO or soft water. It has very little to do with other minerals in the water. Its the PH, which will not increase when sparging with soft/RO water. This is why people acidify their sparge water to get a similar effect. The minerals (Ca, Mg, SO4 etc) in that sparge water have little effect on this process. Their real effects are on mash PH and the final beer profile.

Certainly nothing wrong with sparging with mineralised water though - as long as its not too alkaline. And you can just acidify it if it is.


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## MHB (7/8/11)

I think we sort of agree, yes you can sparge with pure water and probably get away with it.
Here is the inevitable But a little calcium and a pH adjustment wont do any harm, at pHs >7 you will be much more likely to extract Tannins, depending on temperature you can get some tannins even at or below pH 7 and its very easy to reduce the risk so why not. For the majority of brewers who dont have RO water I think its a necessity.
Im far from sure that the only thing extracted from the grist during sparging is sugars; Polyphenols being the obvious concern, Proteins and Oxalates among other products are worth looking at.
I cant find much research on what happens if you sparge with RO water, volumes on what happens in hundreds of breweries worldwide on a day to day basis, using their normal brewing water (as adjusted locally), so I think Ill stick to adding a pinch of calcium and a teaspoon or two of acid, and will follow the results of using purified water with interest.
And I do mean with interest, I look forward to hearing the results and it think this is a discussion well worth having, it’s not about being right or wrong but learning
MHB


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## manticle (7/8/11)

MHB said:


> I can't find much research on what happens if you sparge with RO water




Then why state emphatically that it would be the worst possible choice?

Going on that article you linked, providing the pH was 7 or less, it would be a better choice than many other water sources.


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## MHB (7/8/11)

Because everything in the brewing literature, talking to all the pro brewers I know and a couple of decades of brewing emphasises the importance of making dam sure you dont extract tannins.
If you get a bit too hot, or your RO-MO unit isnt working quite as well as you think, or if you extract just a hint of something you arent expecting a good brew can go to shit in very short order for the want of a few of cents worth of water chemistry.
The big problem with pH is that its a logarithmic scale; it takes next to nothing to move between 6-7 or 7-8 and 10 times as much to go from 5-6 or 8-9, so from 5-9 takes 100 times as much.
The in term is Risk Management in this case very pure water is very risky if you know your water is either acidic or basic and treat it appropriately no problem, if you think its neutral and youre wrong problem.
10mL of food grade Lactic Acid is about 26 cents (at my retail prices), pretty cheap insurance.
MHB


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## manticle (7/8/11)

I get why it's a good idea to treat your sparge water. It just doesn't make sense, in light of the link that you posted, why untreated RO water would be worse than untreated water that isn't RO.


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## MHB (7/8/11)

I dont believe that is what the article says; _It is important to ensure all brewing water is at least neutral or slightly acidic_ neutral is the minimum requirement not the optimum.
Thats rather unequivocal, in my previous post I outlined why I would be reluctant to trust RO-MO water.
If you can guarantee that your water is and will remain neutral, go right ahead and uses whatever you like. But if a brew cost you $26 and the acid to make sure the sparge pH is spot on is 26 cents the odds favour the acid addition by 100:1, I know what I will be doing.
MHB


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## manticle (7/8/11)

That's not my point. Why is it the _worst_ which is what you stated in your first post, not why would you treat it in order not to take risks or what can go wrong with RO water or whatever.

It's a fairly simple question - I'm not sure what's so confusing about it.

1. You stated RO water would be the _worst_ water to sparge with unless treated with minerals.

2. Why, _specifically_ RO water as opposed to any other water, issues with not treating any type of water notwithstanding?


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## drsmurto (7/8/11)

manticle said:


> That's not my point. Why is it the _worst_ which is what you stated in your first post, not why would you treat it in order not to take risks or what can go wrong with RO water or whatever.
> 
> It's a fairly simple question - I'm not sure what's so confusing about it.
> 
> ...



RO water is very pure water, in effect void of all minerals. Any other water source will have some mineral content and therefore some buffering capacity.

Why anyone would use 2 vastly different water sources for mash in and sparge is beyond me. It makes no sense.


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## manticle (7/8/11)

Thanks Doc.

What I'm not clear on though is why someone might not treating Perth water (for example) with a pH of 8.6 (figure hypothetical) for their sparge would somehow be less bad than someone not treating RO water with a pH of maybe 6.2.

I'm not suggesting that it isn't worse - I have no idea and make no claim to know. In light of the article and MHB's original statement, I would like to know if it really is and why. MHB suggests there is limited data so I'm not quite sure why he made the statement in the first place.

RO unit malfunction notwithstanding - surely anyone interested enough in water chemistry who was actually experiencing tannins would measure the pH of strike water, mash and sparge water?

Bear in mind that I am still slowly learning the ins and outs of water chemistry (and will be for some time) and make no claims to having any decent knowledge. I adjust my mash currently (roughly) and add extra salts to the boil but make no adjustments to the brewing liquor itself. I certainly have noticed no tannins so it's not an issue for me with my beer made on my system at the moment but I realise my experiential/anecdotal evidence is far from being conclusive. However understanding this stuff is interesting and I'm happy to learn from anyone who enjoys divulging knowledge without it being tempered by arrogance (not referring to you DS).


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## bcp (7/8/11)

Fourstar said:


> Listen to the man!
> Assume the rest of your minerals/salts are 0 or close to treat it like Melbournes water. For 20-23L batches a max total of 10g calcium based salts will get you in the ballparks you need for the beer profiles you desire.
> 
> majority CaCl2 with a minority Caso4 = malty beers
> the inverse = hoppy beers.



i'm just at the point of sorting out my water, and it's certainly making a difference to my brews. 

I'm on cardinia water, which latest profile is
Calcium	Magnesium Sodium	Chloride	Sulfate * 
(Ca ppm)	(Mg ppm)	(Na ppm)	(Cl ppm)	(SO4 ppm) Alkalinity (CaCO3 ppm)	
3.7 1.5 4.7 7.6 1.3 11.5	

So it's low in calcium, magnesium and sulfates. My water volumes are 32litre mash (biab), boil starts about 28-29 litres for a 23-25 litre batch. 

MY TREATMENT
1. I've started using about 5g Calcium choride, and on hoppier beers with about 3-5g calcium sulfate. I'm ignoring magnesium. 
2. I haven't ever measured pH. EZ_water calculator suggests i'm sitting on 5.45 which seems fine. 


Fourstar suggests a minimum of 10g calcium. So tweaking between gypsum and calc chloride for hoppy/malty should be all i need. 

Am i in the ball park?


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## bcp (7/8/11)

Damn, what happened to my carefully aligned table.


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## Smashin (7/8/11)

Unless i've scan read this thread wrong, pH and alkalinity have been confused. Alkalinity is not the same as pH, it is the ionic concentration, hence alkalinity is a measure of how easily the pH can be changed. RO and very soft water are the less ideal water for sparging. Tannin extraction will become an issue towards the end of sparging as the water pH can more easily rise as the sugar concentration drops. Temperature is the other half of the equation but isn't an issue on its own for tannin extraction, remember decoction mashing doesn't suffer and the husks get the crap boiled out of them, this is due to pH of the wort, as we sparge the sugar concentration drops and the pH rises and here is where out water alkalinity AND pH come into play.

My water is extremely soft Ca<20ppm and Mg<5ppm (as measured with my KH/GH test kit) and <30ppm total hardness as measured with an electronic dissolved solids meter. While I have always stopped my runnings @ 1.008-1.010, since putting salt additions or citric acid in my sparge water these final running's do taste noticeably different, the dry tonged tea type flavor isn't there. I'm not sure how soft Melbourne water is but you can easily try this for yourself and taste the difference first hand.

Can you sparge with RO or very soft water? yes, but more care needs to be taken to avoid tannin extraction from over sparging or letting the final running's proceed to far. And I think that's the point MHB was trying to make.

Smashin :icon_cheers: 

mmmm 5pm beer time.....


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## eamonnfoley (7/8/11)

manticle said:


> Thanks Doc.
> 
> What I'm not clear on though is why someone might not treating Perth water (for example) with a pH of 8.6 (figure hypothetical) for their sparge would somehow be less bad than someone not treating RO water with a pH of maybe 6.2.
> 
> ...



Given this "thread blowout" is my fault. Let me explain further.

PH of RO water is irrelevent. Without going into the chemistry, the ions are unsettled and PH of RO water varies a lot (you'll find the meter jumps all over the place). Main point is that it is devoid of alkalinity and other minerals.

Ok - consider the following common practice:
A brewer in Melbourne, Pilsen, or Portland (all very soft water) treats their mash with salts (and acid if needed) to get the right PH, and also sets up the ion balance for the final beer through this practice. They then sparge with their very soft water (untreated) which has very little of anything in it.

Why is that practice any different using RO water in the mash, treating mash with salts (and acid if needed), then sparging with straight RO? RO is very similar to very soft water. The mash chemistry still gets the minerals it needs, as does fermentation. What damage can RO water possibly do during a sparge that soft water wouldnt? They both basically rinse without raising PH - which is what you want (and why alkaline sparge water usually needs to be acidified).


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## Wolfy (7/8/11)

bcp said:


> MY TREATMENT
> 1. I've started using about 5g Calcium choride, and on hoppier beers with about 3-5g calcium sulfate. I'm ignoring magnesium.
> ...
> Fourstar suggests a minimum of 10g calcium. So tweaking between gypsum and calc chloride for hoppy/malty should be all i need.
> ...


Actually *Fourstar *suggested a *maximum *of 10g calcium:


Fourstar said:


> Assume the rest of your minerals/salts are 0 or close to treat it like Melbournes water. For 20-23L batches a max total of 10g calcium based salts will get you in the ballparks you need for the beer profiles you desire.
> 
> majority CaCl2 with a minority Caso4 = malty beers
> the inverse = hoppy beers.


However, if you skip to the last two pages of 'Key Concepts in Water Treatment' you'll see that you are safely on the lower side of the ball park figures.


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## CosmicBertie (7/8/11)

Anyone fancy a beer?

I got a pH meter (ebay, woo) and tested my water last week. pH of 7.4. Tap water at room temperature (around 20C). This was AFTER ive brewed my latest batch (DrS Landlord) and the beer tastes good (I mainly brew British Ales). I cant detect any tannins, which im guessing would be like an over-stewed tea taste.

I have been adding 2 tsp of Calcium Chloride to the mash as the pH papers I used only went up to pH5.7 and the colour was always at 5.7. If my water is at pH7.4, I doubt that the grains and CaCl are going to bring it down 2 points? So I guess it would be worth adding a bit of acid to bring that down to the magic 5.5?

If anyone fancies at taste test, let me know


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## Wolfy (7/8/11)

Cosmic Bertie said:


> I have been adding 2 tsp of Calcium Chloride to the mash as the pH papers I used only went up to pH5.7 and the colour was always at 5.7. If my water is at pH7.4, I doubt that the grains and CaCl are going to bring it down 2 points? So I guess it would be worth adding a bit of acid to bring that down to the magic 5.5?
> 
> If anyone fancies at taste test, let me know


Actually _in theory_ that's almost exactly what you'd expect. 
Starting with a water of pH of 7.3, mashing 100% pale malt (according to Palmer's spreadsheet) would give a mash pH of 5.8, add the small salt addition and it will drop it a fraction closer to 5.7


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## [email protected] (7/8/11)

My limited understanding , happy to be corrected, RO , distilled and most rainwater are devoid of pretty much anything.

From other reading that is not brewing related, pure water such as above by nature will absorb pretty much anything it is subject to, eg: even thoughts or intentions from music, monks ect.

Back to brewing, so this same pure water that is not treated for sparging, may pull or absorb unwanted products from the grains especially at higher temps.

Since going down the water treatment path, i use rainwater and have always just treated my entire brewing water at the start with salts then adjusted the PH so i know when i rinse my grains, (dunking the bag- not really a sparge) i know for sure that my PH will not creep up and extract unwanted tannins.


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## eamonnfoley (7/8/11)

Beer4U said:


> My limited understanding , happy to be corrected, RO , distilled and most rainwater are devoid of pretty much anything.
> 
> From other reading that is not brewing related, pure water such as above by nature will absorb pretty much anything it is subject to, eg: even thoughts or intentions from music, monks ect.
> 
> ...



PH can only creep up when you sparge with alkaline water. Soft water (including RO) will not extract tannins from a sparge, its just not going to happen. Here's some info from the Braukaiser - I learnt most things water from him and AJDelange. Braukaiser's spreadsheets are worth their weight in gold. You can actually predict mash PH pretty damn accurately with it (works for me).

*Originally Posted by braukaiser.com*
But sparging with high alkalinity water can quickly consume the mash's buffer capacity and lead to pH levels that lead to excessive tannin extraction into the wort. This is because the high concentration of carbonates and bicarbonates in the water forms a strong buffer. As the sweet wort is diluted and with it the mash’s ability to buffer its pH at a level closer to the mash pH, the sparge water and its pH are taking over which can raise the pH above 6.0 and cause excessive tannin extraction.

There are a number of ways that this pH raise during sparging can be prevented or at least mitigated such that the pH is not allowed to raise above 5.8:

Limited sparging: If sparging is stopped before the pH of the water, that most of the grain sits in, rises above 6.0 an excessive amount of tannins will not be extracted into the boil kettle. While this limits the efficiency of the lauter, it is the most practical way of controlling tannin extraction from the grain husks. It also complies with the Reinheitsgebot (German beer purity law). An elegant way of limiting the amount of sparging is lowering the amount of water used for sparging and increasing the amount of water used for mashing. Pilsner beers, which are delicate beers that would suffer from excessive tannin extraction, are brewed with a mash thickness of up to 5.5 l/kg (2.5 qt/lb) which limits the amount of water that is available for sparging [Narziss, 2005]
Low alkalinity sparge water: *The buffer capacity (alkalinity) of soft water is not strong enough to counteract the buffer of the mash even at high dilution rates. If brewing water is build from distilled or reverse osmosis water the salt additions destined for the sparge water can be made in the kettle while “plain” water is used for sparging. For brewers who care, this method is not approved by the Reinheitsgebot.*
Sparge water acidification: The sparge water alkalinity can be reduced though acid additions and its pH can be lowered to a pH of 6 where it will only have a weak buffer capacity and will not be able to significantly counteract the pH that is set by the mash’s strong buffer. It is compliant with the Reinheitsgebot if lactic acid is used that was derived from malt based fermentation with malt derived lactobacillus.


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## [email protected] (7/8/11)

foles said:


> PH can only creep up when you sparge with alkaline water. Soft water (including RO) will not extract tannins from a sparge, its just not going to happen.



Yes thats been my understanding also., but what if the pure water absorbs stuff that make the PH creep up? 

Its also good to remember that soft water can also be alkaline.


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## eamonnfoley (7/8/11)

Beer4U said:


> Yes thats been my understanding also., but what if the pure water absorbs stuff that make the PH creep up?
> 
> Its also good to remember that soft water can also be alkaline.



I dont buy that RO water can absorb anything that regular soft & low alkalinity water can't. Would need a chemical explanation for that to understand it. I had my RO water tested in America, and it wasnt even fully cleansed in 2 categories. It had 16ppm Cl and 4ppm Na. But thats because it originally had over 200ppm Cl and and about 125ppm Na. A lot to filter out! I just factor it into my calcs.

Your right, technically soft water is low in calcium and magnesium only. I'm referring to water that is soft and low in alkalinity.

This stuff is great fun isnt it! :icon_cheers:


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## [email protected] (7/8/11)

Yeah my first couple of AG were shit because i just used my water straight up.
Very astringent and cloudy muting aromas and flavours, prob also not the happiest environment for the yeast either.

The more you look into brewing the deeper the hole seems to get , there is always something you can understand better and tweak.


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## neal32 (28/10/12)

I always have sparged and mashed with the same profile built from RO water. Today I added all the salts in the mash as I read they dissolve better with the malt, then just sparged with RO water with 1ml of lactic to 33 litres of RO water. The last couple of brews there was no issue with astringency however I thought in light of my readings I would try it this way. Anyways I took a reading of the sparge water in the HLT with my Hanna HI 98128 and it said the ph was ~4.4! Surely that can't be right, can it? Any input from the scientific types would be appreciated. Cheers.


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## mabrungard (22/12/12)

neal32 said:


> I always have sparged and mashed with the same profile built from RO water. Today I added all the salts in the mash as I read they dissolve better with the malt, then just sparged with RO water with 1ml of lactic to 33 litres of RO water. The last couple of brews there was no issue with astringency however I thought in light of my readings I would try it this way. Anyways I took a reading of the sparge water in the HLT with my Hanna HI 98128 and it said the ph was ~4.4! Surely that can't be right, can it? Any input from the scientific types would be appreciated. Cheers.




It turns out that your pH observation is almost perfectly correct. With the very low alkalinity of RO water (typically under 20 ppm as CaCO3), it doesn't take much acid to cause the pH to drop like a rock. Even the Sparge Acidification Calculator in *Bru'n Water* confirms the result. Using an alkalinity of 13 ppm, 33L of water and 1ml of 88% lactic is predicted to produce a pH of 4.3. 

Sparge water pH is not really the target a brewer should aim for. Alkalinity is the more appropriate target. I recommend bringing sparging water alkalinity to under 25 ppm to avoid astringency problems. With alkalinity as the controlling variable in mashing, it turns out that the final pH of the sparging water that a brewer should use will vary based on the starting alkalinity of the water. In the case of very low alkalinity water like RO water, the pH to achieve an appropriately low alkalinity may be 6. Whereas, a very alkaline water might need to be acidified to bring the pH to somewhere around the low 5's to get the alkalinity low enough. As Neal found, he didn't need to acidify his sparging water at all. 

There is only one ion that has extra utility in the mash, calcium. Beside its effect on mash pH (along with Mg), it also precipitates oxalate which forms beerstone. While you can add minerals directly to the kettle to account for not adding minerals to the sparging water, I suggest that providing a minimum calcium concentration of 40 ppm in the sparging water should help reduce oxalates in the beer. Other than that, I suggest that adding salts to the mashing or sparging water can be optional. Those salts can sometimes be added directly to the kettle to produce a desired water profile. The most important factor is making sure that the mash pH falls into a desirable range. A program like *Bru'n Water *can help guide a brewer to what and when to add salts to their brew. 

Enjoy!


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## felon (22/12/12)

mabrungard said:


> It turns out that your pH observation is almost perfectly correct. With the very low alkalinity of RO water (typically under 20 ppm as CaCO3), it doesn't take much acid to cause the pH to drop like a rock. Even the Sparge Acidification Calculator in *Bru'n Water* confirms the result. Using an alkalinity of 13 ppm, 33L of water and 1ml of 88% lactic is predicted to produce a pH of 4.3.
> 
> Sparge water pH is not really the target a brewer should aim for. Alkalinity is the more appropriate target. I recommend bringing sparging water alkalinity to under 25 ppm to avoid astringency problems. With alkalinity as the controlling variable in mashing, it turns out that the final pH of the sparging water that a brewer should use will vary based on the starting alkalinity of the water. In the case of very low alkalinity water like RO water, the pH to achieve an appropriately low alkalinity may be 6. Whereas, a very alkaline water might need to be acidified to bring the pH to somewhere around the low 5's to get the alkalinity low enough. As Neal found, he didn't need to acidify his sparging water at all.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the forum Martin
I have had great time trying to get my head around your spreadsheet. I have a problem with it as I use a Mac, and a program called Numbers instead of Excel. The drop down boxes don't work so I can't change my grain types on the Mash Acidification page


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## mabrungard (23/12/12)

felon said:


> Welcome to the forum Martin
> I have had great time trying to get my head around your spreadsheet. I have a problem with it as I use a Mac, and a program called Numbers instead of Excel. The drop down boxes don't work so I can't change my grain types on the Mash Acidification page



Have you tried the freeware LibreOffice software? I found it to work well on a PC, but I haven't tried it on a Mac. 

Thanks for the welcome!


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## manticle (23/12/12)

Have read that Brun page before and I'd like to say it's very comprehensive and well laid out/explained.

I tried to write a similar document earlier in the year for a BJCP study group here in Melbourne which is now in the articles section but is a work in progress (still needs in text referencing to be completed, tables and figures/illustrations to be added and some reconfiguration for clarity and flow) and it's not an easy task trying to cram all the variables into a document and still try and keep it simple and logical.

I think yours does that admirably.


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## felon (23/12/12)

mabrungard said:


> Have you tried the freeware LibreOffice software? I found it to work well on a PC, but I haven't tried it on a Mac.



I haven't tried LibreOffice before. I just tried your spreadsheet on my wife's Mac as she has Excel, And it works fine. Looks like I'll just have to load Excel onto my computer when I get a chance. I was getting some wacky results as I was only inputting grain colour and not what type of grain.
Thanks for a great in depth spreadsheet with a lot of useful information :icon_chickcheers: .


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