# 3 Ring Burner Struggles To Boil Keg Boiler !



## worthp (27/12/07)

Hey Guys I'm new to this but have been getting good advice off you all for a while now. I'm just in the process of going AG and am picking up my gear week by week. I have a converted beer keg as a boiler, I purchased a 3 ring burner to boil it which has a standard lP REG, the 3 ring burner is the green ones you get at bunnings. I put 30liters of water in the keg today and turned on the burner, it took 1 hour 20 mins to get boiling and would only stay boiling with the lid on. Do any of you use the same setup with better success? Or am I doing something wrong? Any help is much appreciated.


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## winkle (27/12/07)

worthp said:


> Hey Guys I'm new to this but have been getting good advice off you all for a while now. I'm just in the process of going AG and am picking up my gear week by week. I have a converted beer keg as a boiler, I purchased a 3 ring burner to boil it which has a standard lP REG, the 3 ring burner is the green ones you get at bunnings. I put 30liters of water in the keg today and turned on the burner, it took 1 hour 20 mins to get boiling and would only stay boiling with the lid on. Do any of you use the same setup with better success? Or am I doing something wrong? Any help is much appreciated.



My three ring burner has a standard Hp Reg (non adjustable) and averages about 20 minutes to bring 25-28 litres to boil.


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## mikem108 (27/12/07)

Yeah you get that with one of those, need to either upgrade to a HP gas reg or get a NASA burner with HP reg, 40 Litres rolling boil in about 10-15 minutes. A keggle also has a lot more metal on the bottom through which to dissipate the heat.


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## domonsura (27/12/07)

The burner just isn't getting enough gas worthp, just add a better regulator and you'll be away laughing, if you'd only be using it for single batches I have an adjustable LP regulator available that works well with 3 ring burners, or an adj med pressure for a little more grunt. I used to use the LP one to boil 40 litres no worries with a three ring.
Have a squiz at the burners page on my website (address in my signature). The same regulator might be available locally to you also from bbq places or gas equipment stores. If you'd like to fill in your location details in your profile, members in your local area might be able to recommend some more options to you.


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## darrell.wallace (27/12/07)

I have been told if i want a more efficient boil with a converted keg than i should use a hammer to invert the bottom of the keg so that the heat goes more towards the middle of the keg and water rather than disapate up the sides of the keg where it is not as effective.

I am not sure if this is the case as i have not tried it (i use electric immersion elements) so cannot vouch for the reliability. maybe somebody else has more information on the topic.

Darrell


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## domonsura (27/12/07)

nird99 said:


> I have been told if i want a more efficient boil with a converted keg than i should use a hammer to invert the bottom of the keg so that the heat goes more towards the middle of the keg and water rather than disapate up the sides of the keg where it is not as effective.
> 
> I am not sure if this is the case as i have not tried it (i use electric immersion elements) so cannot vouch for the reliability. maybe somebody else has more information on the topic.
> 
> Darrell



Not necessary. You just need the right burner with enough power  Beating your keg up with a hammer is just wrong :lol:


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## worthp (27/12/07)

Thanks for advise so far, and domonsura I will fill in profile details, BTW do you ship to NZ ? I'm not sure those regs are available here.

Peter


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## lokpikn (27/12/07)

Sorry to butt in Worthp

But scine your talking lp regs i got a question for you domansura

I got a 4 ring burner and was told that it HAD to run on the LP reg from the BBQ place i got it from. So if i understand i can up grade it to one of your med regs and it wont cause me or mt burner any harm. I would be keen to get my 50 to 70 ltr boils up a bit quicker


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## worthp (27/12/07)

No worries lokpikn, I would also like to know if I upgraded to a new reg that it wouldnt case me or the burner any harm.


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## winkle (27/12/07)

Well when I bought my 3 ring burner, the guys at the camping store insisted that I needed a high pressure regulator, results seem to prove them correct. I think everyone I know using a 3/4 ring uses one.


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## Screwtop (27/12/07)

winkle said:


> Well when I bought my 3 ring burner, the guys at the camping store insisted that I needed a high pressure regulator, results seem to prove them correct. I think everyone I know using a 3/4 ring uses one.



Perry, what is a HP reg? 

I used a 2Kg/ph LPG (2.8 kPg) reg previous to buying a NASA, used to do 60 min boils then, so only pre-boil volumes around 29L. Could get that to a rolling boil in a converted (tall) keg in 60 min (no bashed in bottom).

Screwy


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## bonj (27/12/07)

I run my 3 ring on a standard 2.75kg/h BBQ reg. It boils 28L fine. Takes a while to get there, but it gets there okay, and gives a nice rolling boil... but that's in the Qld heat. I did notice it having trouble when it rained, so a new reg may be the go for you in NZ.


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## domonsura (27/12/07)

worthp said:


> Thanks for advise so far, and domonsura I will fill in profile details, BTW do you ship to NZ ? I'm not sure those regs are available here.
> 
> Peter



Hi Peter - yep I ship to NZ, I'd have to check the post charge though. I'm not sure if they are available in NZ, I had a look around for a mate who brews when I was there recently and couldn't find anything so had to send something back for him. Send me a PM or email if you would and I'll let you know what postage would be.

As far as guarantees go guys I'm afraid, the best I am prepared to say is that I have personally used all of these model regs with each of the 3 ring/NASA/Italian burners, I am aware of many customers now using all three of the regs on 3 / 4 ring / NASA / Italian burners, I am not aware of any safety incidents or faults with any of them and I would be happy personally to use any of them in my own personal setup. Bearing in mind that LPG burners have inherent risks in their use, if you want more specific safety guarantees, please see a gasfitter and ask their professional advice, as I am simply a retailer/stainless fabricator - not a gasfitter.

I have a very wary relationship with LPG - similar to one that you would have with a dog you don't trust and expect to bite you at any time.  That's why I check every connection for leaks every time I use it........


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## winkle (27/12/07)

Screwtop said:


> Perry, what is a HP reg?
> 
> I used a 2Kg/ph LPG (2.8 kPg) reg previous to buying a NASA, used to do 60 min boils then, so only pre-boil volumes around 29L. Could get that to a rolling boil in a converted (tall) keg in 60 min (no bashed in bottom).
> 
> Screwy



Seasons greetings mate, my one is an Type 75-1-2, AGA 3414 3.5Kg/h LPG (2,8 kPg). Was told that it is a High Pressure reg and is what was needed once I explained what I was going to do with it. My 50 litre keg-shaped-object (without a dinged in bum) usually hits a rolling boil in 15-20 minutes with a average volume of 25 litres, straight from mash tun. I usually turn off one ring since two will maintain the rolling boil once started.

Edit - added the kPg


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## haysie (27/12/07)

winkle said:


> Well when I bought my 3 ring burner, the guys at the camping store insisted that I needed a high pressure regulator, results seem to prove them correct. I think everyone I know using a 3/4 ring uses one.



It would be highly illegal  
What camping store do you use? Either one with no credibility or just fkn dills!
3 ring = low pressure i.e bbq reg
4ring = adjustable reg, NOT rated H/P


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## Screwtop (27/12/07)

winkle said:


> Seasons greetings mate, my one is an Type 75-1-2, AGA 3414 3.5Kg/h LPG. Was told that it is a High Pressure reg and is what was needed once I explained what I was going to do with it. My 50 litre keg-shaped-object (without a dinged in bum) usually hits a rolling boil in 15-20 minutes with a average volume of 25 litres, straight from mash tun. I usually turn off one ring since two will maintain the rolling boil once started.



Same to you and Anna Mate hope you had a good one, have asked repeatedly up here at camping/disposal/BBQ shops for HP/adjustable regs and always receive blank looks. The old "this is the reg we sell mate, should be right" very convincing sales pitch.

Screwy


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## haysie (27/12/07)

Screwtop said:


> The old "this is the reg we sell mate, should be right" very convincing sales pitch.
> 
> Screwy



Handball


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## Screwtop (27/12/07)

haysie said:


> Handball



Zacary!


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## The King of Spain (27/12/07)

There was a good thread on this a while ago. Result was my buying an adjustable reg for my 3 ring, and in hindsite a very good decision.

Domonsura, it think that was you? Had photos and even sound to give an idea of intensity

Reckon you could put in a link??

Cheers


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## PostModern (27/12/07)

Try dismantling the taps. You'll see how, just a nut on the bottom. I couldn't get a boil going with my 3-ring until I dismantled the taps, cleaned excess grease out of them then reassembled. There would have been enough grease inside the taps to restrict the gas flow to 50%.

I ran it on a standard reg after cleaning and got much much faster boils that only needed two rings to sustain a 25L boil. I now use a variable reg and can make the flame do anything.


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## Whistlingjack (27/12/07)

I had this problem too. 

I read somewhere on this board, that the discs on the burner should be opened out as a far as they go. I tried this and got great boils straight away. Less orange flame and more blue. Also less soot on the base of the kettle. Don't know why, but it works for me.

I'm not sure what three ring burner you have, but I saw the same ones in all the camping shops here.

WJ


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## warra48 (27/12/07)

I use a 3 ring burner with a standard regulator, the same as used on my barbecue.
18 litres of cold water up to mash in temp in 15 minutes in a SS 19 litre pot.
30 litres of wort post sparge in 15-20 minutes in a 40 litre alu kettle.
After vigourous boil for 15 minutes, 2 rings will keep the boil going.
I have the air discs turned out as far as possible.
Dissembling your burner and cleaning out any crud inside is a good idea.


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## Sammus (28/12/07)

haysie said:


> It would be highly illegal
> What camping store do you use? Either one with no credibility or just fkn dills!
> 3 ring = low pressure i.e bbq reg
> 4ring = adjustable reg, NOT rated H/P



I don't quite follow this... everyone here uses them fine with great results, so why is this camping store so bad for saying to use it?


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## SJW (28/12/07)

Take PM's advice and clean out the jets near the adjustment nobs as they can fill up with grease.


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## worthp (28/12/07)

SJW said:


> Take PM's advice and clean out the jets near the adjustment nobs as they can fill up with grease.



OK, I have pulled the burner apart and cleaned out grease and reassembled.

I put 28 liters of water in my keg and heres how it went.

Water temp 25

Lid on
after 
10min - 40 
20min - 53
30min - 65 steaming
40min - 75
50min - 85
60min - 90
110min - simmering
120 - BOIL !!!

Wont maitain boil though when lid is off and although there wasnt much wind this morning when the wind blew it did effect the flame. Am tending to lean towards trying new reg, any further thoughts ?


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## NRB (28/12/07)

Is that how close a vessel usually sits to these burners? It looks like it's sitting too close to the flame...


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## winkle (28/12/07)

Err, why is one ring turned off?


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## PostModern (28/12/07)

So you both cleaned the taps and checked the jets? Is there paint in the holes where the flame comes out? Again, going off the experience of one burner, it took a while for the holes to clear of paint. Can you post a shot of the flames with all the rings lit? These things are fairly simple devices, we should be able to troubleshoot them


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## tangent (28/12/07)

> Is that how close a vessel usually sits to these burners? It looks like it's sitting too close to the flame...



Ditto! Way too close.


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## paulwin (28/12/07)

are you sure the regulator is ok had one like that on my bbq stuff up the dial got accidently turned on it .
cheers paul


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## Kingy (28/12/07)

i think if you raise the keg off the ground a bit (on some bricks or a frame) it will let more oxygen in and the flame will bounce of the bottom of the keg. 
With it just sitting straight on top it would definately be starving itself.


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## domonsura (28/12/07)

Ditto again.....that's too close. You need to stand it off from the bottom by maybe 50mm at least. What you are aiming for is to have the blue flame tips close to the bottom of the vessel - you'll need to adjust the flame and have a look to see where they are sitting and adjust as required. If that's the classic kiwi back porch (big slab of concrete), I'd get the burner up and away from the surface of the concrete as well, a piece of fibre-cement sheet or something. Hot concrete has a tendency to go bang, and it's even worse if you get it hot then throw water on it :/ Believe me...I know first hand ......  

I'm still of the opinion that you aren't going to get any joy with that regulator, they just aren't made to do anything but put out a sedate flow of gas for a BBQ, and the heat loss from that particular type of 'kettle' is quite large. At 30 litres, you still have nearly 50% of the upper vessel acting as a 'heat sink' dissipating the heat you are trying to put in there. If you put a wind collar round the base, clean out all the jets and burner holes etc you may only end up with something you can get it to the boil with eventually and maybe keep it going with the lid off, but I reckon that this one little thing will lengthen every brew day immensely, & bug the hell out of you until you bypass the problem and replace the regulator - so my advice to you is to ditch this reg for another so you can get on with brewing  And this is before you get winter..........not that it gets that cold up where you are.....


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## PostModern (28/12/07)

I agree about getting a better reg, but even with a medium pressure reg, you're forcing gas thru a device with blockages. Clean the burner first, check for "reasonable" flame with the current reg, say enough to wok cook on. Otherwise you'll just be trying to ram more gas thru a blocked system = yellow flame and inefficient burn = wasted money on gas. Be sure your burner is as clear as it is meant to be, which is not as clear as it is made (they are after all very cheap and banged out by the million untested).


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## domonsura (28/12/07)

PostModern said:


> Be sure your burner is as clear as it is meant to be, which is not as clear as it is made (they are after all very cheap and banged out by the million untested).



Couldn't agree more.


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## worthp (28/12/07)

domonsura said:


> Couldn't agree more.



Thanks for all the advise guys, much appreciated. I had the keg on bricks yesterday and the keg was sitting much further off the flames. 

Last go, I will clean out all burner holes, raise the keg off the ground, put some fiber board under the burner and give it one last go. If it doesnt achieve what I'm after next step to geta new reg of domonsura. (I'll post a pic of the flames too)

Cheers Peter


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## devo (28/12/07)

my old 3 ring though slower than a HP burner still didn't take over an hour to boil?!


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## worthp (28/12/07)

OK, test complete. Holes cleared out, fibre board under burner, bricks under keg.

Water temp started at 55 still hot from this morning.

After
10mins - 70, promising!
20mins - 82
30mins - 93
32mins - simmer
35mins - Rolling boil!
Lid off
40mins - boil slowed to big bubbles, lid back on.
41mins - back to good boil
50mins - boiling well, lid off
60mins - still boiling ok.

Conclusion.

Definitely boiled quicker, about 50 mins from water tank temp.
Holds boil well with lid on, with lid off probably good enough for 30 litre boil.

Do you guys boil wort with lids or not?

As is will probably do what I want but I still may go with a new reg a little more gas would speed things up.

Open to comments.

Cheers Peter


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## Finite (28/12/07)

worthp said:


> Do you guys boil wort with lids or not?



Peter,

Not usually. I have it on to get it to a boil faster but then do a boil with the lid off which is supposed to any remove volatiles I think. Just make sure you compensate for any evaporation in your calcs.


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## Beejay (28/12/07)

Blake said:


> Peter,
> 
> Not usually. I have it on to get it to a boil faster but then do a boil with the lid off which is supposed to any remove volatiles I think. Just make sure you compensate for any evaporation in your calcs.




That's right Blake. 

Worthp, Dimethyl Sulfide is a common problem in the finished beer when covering up your brewpot during the boil. DMS is removed from the wort during the boil, so covering it up is obviously going to cause the DMS-laced condensation to fall back into your brewpot. DMS smells like cooked corn or cabbage and whilst is accepted to some degree in lagers, you will get a lot boiling wort with the lid on. You need to make sure to keep a rolling, uncovered boil when brewing. You see a lot of people with a "rolling boil" almost jumping out of the kettle, however a rolling boil really isn't too much above a simmer so if you are already getting that without the lid on, you are already up and running as you need.

If you haven't got a good boil, perhaps consider a cheap solution of a piece of foil with a 15cm hole cut out of it that will cover the majority of the top of the kettle, but still allow the nasties to escape. If you ever see a commercial brewery, the hole in the top of the kettle is really quite small in proportion to the area of the kettle top.

Cheers,

Beejay


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## amita (28/12/07)

Open to comments.

Cheers Peter

whats in the little green bottle?????  

cheers amita 
[/quote]


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## joecast (28/12/07)

thats a good lookin flame worthp.
i've got the same burner, might go check the jets and valves before next brew.


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## Sammus (28/12/07)

winkle said:


> Err, why is one ring turned off?



It's not, it just opens the other way


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## PostModern (29/12/07)

Looking good, worthp. 

A bit of tweaking with the air discs and you should be able to tune out most of the yellow flame. Might give you a few more degrees, but that flame looks outstanding. I usually turn off the centre ring once the boil is under way and all the flames turn blue.

When I fire up my kettle next, I'll take a shot of the flame I get with a variable medium pressure reg.


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## worthp (30/12/07)

PostModern said:


> Looking good, worthp.
> 
> A bit of tweaking with the air discs and you should be able to tune out most of the yellow flame. Might give you a few more degrees, but that flame looks outstanding. I usually turn off the centre ring once the boil is under way and all the flames turn blue.
> 
> When I fire up my kettle next, I'll take a shot of the flame I get with a variable medium pressure reg.



Thanks for that I'd like to compare flames with a 3 ring using a medium pressure reg.

Cheers

Peter


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## domonsura (30/12/07)

Have a squiz at this thread Peter Burner Thread

There are some photo's and sounds / boil comparisons on there. At that point I didn't have the med pressure adjustable regulator available, but generally all you need to know about the med pressure adjustable for aomparison is that it goes from 0 gas flow to close to the same power that the HP regulator puts out. There are pics of the HP reg running the 3 ring on there.


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## winkle (30/12/07)

Sammus said:


> It's not, it just opens the other way



Ha ha, I'd guessed that but thought I'd ask to be sure.

worthp, I agree with domonsura - that looks good now  . I usually turn the middle ring off after getting a good rolling boil (mainly because it's first on the left on my jobbie  ).


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## worthp (30/12/07)

worthp said:


> Thanks for that I'd like to compare flames with a 3 ring using a medium pressure reg.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter


What an impressive thread ! Huge amount of work went into that with great information for all to see. Looks like I'll be ordering a reg off you and maybe a new burner also.....I sent you PM.

Cheers

Peter


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