# Cleaning up after an infection



## paulschuit81 (10/10/15)

I have just had 2 infections back to back, both were fresh wort kits from all inn brewing.
The first was a penny pale ale that tasted like vinegar / wine and was flat after 3 weeks in bottle and the second was a bill Murray lager that grew a thick white skin in the fermenter and had the exact same shit taste before bottling , can the fermenter be cleaned and used again , if so what with ? Please help


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/10/15)

Yes it can

Be very rigorous with your cleaning and use multiple steps and santizsers.

Soak in nappi-san for a few days, then use bleach, then use caustic soda. 

Put EVERTHiNG you use for brewing in the fermenter as well. Spoons, jugs, hose, funnels, taps..etc


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## paulschuit81 (10/10/15)

I have soaked for 20 mins in strong bleach, what now? How much caustic soda for a 25l fermenter? Is the napi san soak needed after the bleach? I am also going to start using star san instead of the cheap coopers sanitizer


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## indica86 (10/10/15)

I have thrown a full FV and two boxes of full bottles in the bin before,


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## Seaquebrew (10/10/15)

Buy a new tap

Hard to clean, cheap to buy

Cheers


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## MartinOC (10/10/15)

Cleaning & sanitising is going to take-up 80% of your time as a brewer. There's no getting around it if you want to make good beer.

I've just spent a day brewing a couple of batches, but whilst everything was going-on, I was cleaning & sanitising everything else. That's just the way it is.....

Get into a regime & it'll pay dividends down the track.


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## Yob (10/10/15)

Seaquebrew said:


> Buy a new tap
> Hard to clean, cheap to buy
> Cheers


Hard to clean?


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## MartinOC (10/10/15)

Yob said:


> Hard to clean?


Yeah, it means you have to actually take it apart & put it back together after it's been cleaned.

Effort required....


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## seamad (10/10/15)

Are you using starsan ?
I use napisan ( unscented ) to clean then starsan. Regularly do sours ( on purpose) and never had a cross infection ( well not yet )


edit. oops, didn't see your post #3.


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## Seaquebrew (10/10/15)

It means it has close mating surfaces, fine corners and areas that are hard to scrub

Easy to pull apart, not so easy to clean thoroughly

I have solved 2 infection issues by buying new taps

Cheers


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## antiphile (10/10/15)

Judging by the "vinegar" hint, I'll bet a forum moderator's testicle it's an _acetobacter_ infection. If you do a search here or more widely you'll find what's required to clean up to minimise any recurrence. Good luck! I had it in my brew area last year, so I know what you're in for.


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## Brew Forky (10/10/15)

Put the tap in very hot water, put a wooden spoon in the guts and smash down on a bench. Clean. Not hard. Gave my fermenters a proper clean the other day. Gave a bleach shake as per the volumes by John Palmer. Rinsed well with hot water. Soaked the whole lot including taps in 2 with the rubber taken off in Sod Perc. Rinsed well with hot water. A Litre of Starsan in each one and a shake every time I walked past them. Their clean now. They could rear an IVF baby.


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## Brew Forky (10/10/15)

Addendum: Clean your taps. The shit that gets in them that you can't get to without breaking them apart is amazing.


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## Diesel80 (10/10/15)

Hey, kind of related. can you buy new rubber washer for these taps?
I have a bucket of taps with the rubber disintegrated.
Seems dumb to keep buying new taps just to get a new washer!

Long shot, anyone got a part number for them or equiv?

I agree with cleaning out the taps though! Make a habit of it about every 3 brews for a breakdown.


Cheers,
D80


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/10/15)

Taps and vessel threads are mostly over looked

When I mean soak...I mean soak for a day or 2

Keep you ferm full of nappi san solution and have everything sittting in it untill you need to use it

Star san is good, but not the only sanitiser out there. To many brewers just rely on star-san alone

It is always good to change chemicals used, especially if you get one that mutates


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## paulschuit81 (10/10/15)

Cheers for the feedback guys, the fermenter is a DIY coopers kit with the pull foward white tap , coopers want $5 for a new tap ( all good) then $15 postage!!!!!!! For that price I will just buy a new fermenter.


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## Nizmoose (10/10/15)

paulschuit81 said:


> Cheers for the feedback guys, the fermenter is a DIY coopers kit with the pull foward white tap , coopers want $5 for a new tap ( all good) then $15 postage!!!!!!! For that price I will just buy a new fermenter.


I'd be very surprised if you couldn't find a correctly threaded tap at bunnings, bcf, and the like for about 4 bucks?


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## antiphile (10/10/15)

Unfortunately, Niz, the newish Coopers fermenters use a proprietry tap that isn't threaded. It's a good excuse to get a new fermenter, though.

I ended up ordering 5 new taps to justify the $15 postage.


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## paulschuit81 (11/10/15)

New fermenter it is, cheers boys


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## fraser_john (12/10/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> <snip>
> 
> It is always good to change chemicals used, especially if you get one that mutates


This!

Big swings in pH are excellent at killing bacteria/mold spores etc. So a hot caustic bath (hour or so) followed quickly by an acid rinse (pure vinegar) is very effective and at $1/litre at Aldi, every one can afford vinegar!

Those people that also talked about pulling taps apart, that is spot on too. You can search the threads and find where lots of us have suffered problems due to our taps, whether they be the plastic drum types, or the two/three piece stainless jobs.


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## manticle (12/10/15)

antiphile said:


> Judging by the "vinegar" hint, I'll bet a forum moderator's testicle it's an _acetobacter_ infection. If you do a search here or more widely you'll find what's required to clean up to minimise any recurrence. Good luck! I had it in my brew area last year, so I know what you're in for.



You're not getting my testicles for your wager.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (12/10/15)

Diesel80 said:


> I agree with cleaning out the taps though! Make a habit of it about every 3 brews for a breakdown.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> D80


Hey mate I'd argue they should be broken down EVERY use, stored sanitized and dry disassembled, then just dip in sanitizer, lube and assemble prior to use.


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## TheWiggman (12/10/15)

For cleaning those new Coopers taps are well designed. They pull apart very easily to get into the nitty gritty areas.
Oh, and if using caustic soda (sodium hydroxide) be sure to follow the safety directions. Rubber gloves, goggles - don't skimp on the PPE and use it away from unsuspecting kids and adults.


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## Kev R (12/10/15)

Plus one for completly striping down all fittings between brews.Even the sanitary valve i have gets yeasty sludge traped inside.
Also the viscosity of liquids stops them getting to the bottom of scratches threads ect, so bugs can hide in them un effected by your sanitatisers. Threads ect realy need treatment with the pressure cooker or oven.


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## DU99 (12/10/15)

> It is always good to change chemicals used, especially if you get one that mutates


i have starsan and _Iodophor,i alternate them._


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## mongey (12/10/15)

not that it probably means anything but I have had 1 infection in about 15 brews now and it was an All In Brewing porter


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## kaiserben (12/10/15)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> ... stored sanitized and dry disassembled, then just dip in sanitizer, lube and assemble prior to use.


What sort of lube do people use? (and I assume it's to stop the slow leak of a tap in a cold environment?)


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## DJ_L3ThAL (12/10/15)

I just use the Lubri-film stuff, mostly because I stopped using it for my kegs as the Skerra lube is WAY better for those. It's to make the taps glide nice and easily instead of seizing up when operating. Mine still get the odd leak here and there maybe 1 batch in every 5 gets a tiny drip. Maybe 5mL in a month?


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/10/15)

Found this on the interweb thing

A few things: 

1. Lacto is the primary infection vector from crushed grain dust, but there are other bacteria including enterobacteria (Bad news) and even wild yeasts that COULD Be introduced -Lacto doesn't form acetic acid / vinegar, though. (Wild yeast strains like Brett CAN produce acetic acid but only in the presence of oxygen)
2. Fruit flies carry Acetobacter -this is likely where the infection comes from. 
3. Acetobacter is actually converting your precious ethanol into acetic acid though a reaction that requires oxygen, so not only is your beer souring but it's losing alcohol -true tragedy!


Get Rid of the Infection:

Kill the microorganism that's creating the infection by sanitizing using multiple methods: high heat, high ph, low ph, optionally: other.
-sanitize ALL equipment that touches beer from the boil kettle on with near boiling (or boiling) liquid with an alkaline cleaner at or even beyond recommended dosages to kill both with heat and high ph. Acid producing bacteria are obviously fairly resistant to low Ph so just sanitizing with acid-based sanitizers might not be as effective as you think. Then rinse and sanitize with an acid sanitizer such as Starsan (which works via 2 mechanisms). You can then use rubbing alcohol or iodone-based sanitizer if you really want to go crazy.
Keep the infection away:

Fruit flies must NEVER come in contact with beer / wort post boil. EVER.
Although this won't keep the infection away, it will prevent the formation of acetic acid by those infection microorganisms: Keep oxygen away from your beer. -Make sure those fermenter lids and air locks all properly seal this is a much bigger deal in secondary / extended aging.


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## Antex (13/10/15)

Why not just pitch the yeast into the cube the wort comes in, and fit an airlock into the lid.
I invert the cube and fit a pin lock disconnect first instead of a tap.


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## S.E (13/10/15)

Antex said:


> Why not just pitch the yeast into the cube the wort comes in, and fit an airlock into the lid.
> I invert the cube and fit a pin lock disconnect first instead of a tap.


There are advantages to fermenting in the cube including as you point out the reduced chance of introducing infection.

Other advantages are you can naturally carbonate and condition in the cube before kegging which helps the yeast flocculate faster and of course saves your bottled co2.

I have also found that sealing the cube when or just before fermentation finishes seems to seal in hop flavour and aroma far more than leaving ale in a fermenter with a lot of head space.

You can fit an air lock into the lid but if the cube is full you would be better off laying it with the tap or pin lock disconnect, if that's what you use uppermost and simply pushing a blow off tube over it.

If you are interested I posted pictures of this method in post #52 in this thread: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/70056-carbingconditioning-in-a-cube-before-keg/


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