# Chappo's Aussie Lager Rice Or No Rice



## chappo1970 (4/4/09)

Ok fellow AHBers,
I am brewing tomorrow 9am do or die! With my little Aussie Lager recipe I have had the suggestion of adding rice in lieu of sucrose. Very valid points have been made both ways. I am completely undecided in fact depending on the way the wind blows I could go either way. So I put it to my esteemed brewers in arms RICE or SUCROSE? The poll will decide!

[topic="31526"]



Linky to recipe and comments

[/topic]
If ya haven't read the thread please read it first.


BTW having a brew day tomoz if ya interested PM me for details


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## DUANNE (4/4/09)

if you want that authentic megaswill flavour use the sugaz. rice can accetuate hop flavours definatly not what you want in a aussie lager! remember little to no hop flavours and serve at 1 degree to make sure any hidden flavour gets buried and you have a gnuine pub draught.


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## Fourstar (4/4/09)

Rice! Rice! Rice! Rice! 

you cant go wrong!


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## Bribie G (4/4/09)

Sugaz are cheaper than rice which is why they use them. However if you go the sugaz try what the breweries do and invert them. Say you are using 800g, just boil it for half an hour in a large pan with about a half teaspoon of citric acid (Mackenzies from the supermarket) and it will split the sucrose into glucose and fructose. The yeast favours the glucose but will eventually chew up the fructose as well. The yeast won't have to produce the enzyme invertase which is apparently one of the causes of the 'twang' you can get with using just cane sugar. In any case sugar is a third of the cost of glucose (dex).

I don't have reliable source for the invertase twang theory, maybe someone like Thirsty Boy has the good info.

I have recently used rice in a brew but it's more of a Cerveza USA style brew. I've called it Solly Cerveza to celebrate the big Tamale leaving Telstra. Bottling Tues and can't wait for a taste of the trub as discussed on other thread :lol: :lol:


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## Cocko (4/4/09)

I voted rice but don't really know why....

I was really hoping for the option: Chappo runs a poll on anything more than most!  

Poll or be be polled I guess.... 


All in friendly jest. B) 


Seriously - rice!


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## sav (4/4/09)

Go with the force ya weener


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## Steve (4/4/09)

Cocko said:


> I voted rice but don't really know why....



me too - just sounds better


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## chappo1970 (4/4/09)

Well rice it is! God help our souls! B)


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## Sully (4/4/09)

and I will be there to watch it all unfold.... B)


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## chappo1970 (4/4/09)

Sully said:


> and I will be there to watch it all unfold.... B)



It's done!

Watch the train wreck unfold in slooooow mowwwwww! :lol: 

BTW how are the fermenters going Sully????

Edit: Too manu LCBA tony clones :lol:


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## Sully (4/4/09)

Chappo said:


> BTW how are the fermenters going Sully????
> 
> Edit: Too manu LCBA tony clones :lol:



:lol: :lol: :lol: - smart ass...


Shit, I will have to get some more beers for tomorrow, they aint lasting very long.... I have _had_ for tomorrow a Double Choc Stout, a 6 pack of Yarra Valley Gold and a 4pk of Murrays Sassy Blondes as well... ooops....


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## chappo1970 (4/4/09)

Where's brads brews?


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## Sully (4/4/09)

Chappo said:


> Where's brads brews?



SHIITT!!! Forgot to collect em today cause he had to cancel thurs night...  

I wonder if he will be up early enough on a sunday morning for me to pick em up on the way through h34r: , Ill just bash on his door anyways.... :lol:


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## Steve (4/4/09)

What kind of rice are you using Chappo?


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## dpadden (4/4/09)

Sully said:


> SHIITT!!! Forgot to collect em today cause he had to cancel thurs night...
> 
> I wonder if he will be up early enough on a sunday morning for me to pick em up on the way through h34r: , Ill just bash on his door anyways.... :lol:



Bloody hell fella's...ever heard of PM/Email/telephone, etc.......... :blink:


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## Mantis (4/4/09)

Paddo said:


> Bloody hell fella's...ever heard of PM/Email/telephone, etc.......... :blink:




yeah, I was thinking ,hey get a room


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## buttersd70 (4/4/09)

learn to mash properly, then neither is required....unless you live in a third world country h34r:


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## Sammus (4/4/09)

can't make a decent beer without sugar, so I figured adding sucrose would be an obvious thing to do? Rice? who ever puts rice in beer? what do you think it is? a curry? even then, naan is a way better choice.


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## caleb (4/4/09)

Well, generally the use of adjuncts in "commercial megaswill" is based upon whatever that country is producing cheapest. Thus, cane sugar in Australia and England (which had several sugar producing countries as part of the empire), corn in the USA, and rice in Japan and other Asian countries.
So if you want to make "authentic" Aussie lager, sugar is the go. On the other hand, rice can be nice to duplicate Asahi or Kirin.


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## dpadden (4/4/09)

Caleb said:


> Well, generally the use of adjuncts in "commercial megaswill" is based upon whatever that country is producing cheapest. Thus, cane sugar in Australia and England (which had several sugar producing countries as part of the empire), corn in the USA, and rice in Japan and other Asian countries.
> So if you want to make "authentic" Aussie lager, sugar is the go. On the other hand, rice can be nice to duplicate Asahi or Kirin.



def. cane sugar for oz lagers and corn for US.....ages ago I made a Us style lager (read minimal taste) and used a fair amount of corn syrup that worked out quite well.


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## Millet Man (4/4/09)

Use sugar if you want it to be "to style", but personally I'd use rice. The flameout addition of POR and the OG seem to be taking it beyond an Aussie lager anyway so it doesn't really matter - just have fun making and drinking it.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## bradsbrew (4/4/09)

Sully said:


> SHIITT!!! Forgot to collect em today cause he had to cancel thurs night...
> 
> I wonder if he will be up early enough on a sunday morning for me to pick em up on the way through h34r: , Ill just bash on his door anyways.... :lol:


What time you going past Sully I'll decant acoupla bottles of the Stout and the pale, should have a belgian as well. I'll be up by 6 but out of here by 8.30. Mate I remembered early in the day but after a few pints I forgot.

Cheers Brad 
Have a good one.
And oh yeah Chappo RICE IS FOR VINDALOO OR THAI CURRY NOT FOR MAKING BEER. But give it a go and let me know the results


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## Bribie G (4/4/09)

Forgetting the rice corn and sugaz, on the question of the POR, I am just getting into the first bottles of an Aussie Strong Old using POR:

5000g BB Ale
150g dark xtal
150g carared
65g Carafa 3 (the blaaaack bastard)
500g dex

90 min boil with 30g POR 60 mins.

Mate the hops are to die for. I would seriously countermand that late addition for an Aussie brew, the POR carries over beautifully despite the small hop addition and length of boil. After all that's what they bred them to do.


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## barfridge (5/4/09)

Rice in an Aussie lager? You're doing it wrong.

Everyone knows you make an Aussie lager with 20-30% cane sugar, fermented too warm and at high gravity, then pollute lightly with pride of ringworm (isoextract preferred), water down to 5% and serve as close to freezing as you can get away with.


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## kook (5/4/09)

BribieG said:


> Sugaz are cheaper than rice which is why they use them. However if you go the sugaz try what the breweries do and invert them. Say you are using 800g, just boil it for half an hour in a large pan with about a half teaspoon of citric acid (Mackenzies from the supermarket) and it will split the sucrose into glucose and fructose. The yeast favours the glucose but will eventually chew up the fructose as well. The yeast won't have to produce the enzyme invertase which is apparently one of the causes of the 'twang' you can get with using just cane sugar. In any case sugar is a third of the cost of glucose (dex).
> 
> I don't have reliable source for the invertase twang theory, maybe someone like Thirsty Boy has the good info.



I personally think invertase being associated with "twang" is a myth. The majority of beers I've tried that have had kit "twang" wasn't simply down to poor fermentation temperature. Acetaldehyde is often the culprit, as people associate the green apple aroma with cider. I've had commercial and homebrew beers with high percentages of sucrose that certainly didn't have any "twang" or "cider like" flavours.

Which Aussie megabrewers invert their sugar before brewing? I didn't know this was common practice?


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## bradsbrew (5/4/09)

Hows the brew day going Chappo. Looking forward to the pics. And howd ya go with ya fried rice?

Cheers Brad


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## Bribie G (5/4/09)

kook said:


> I personally think invertase being associated with "twang" is a myth. The majority of beers I've tried that have had kit "twang" wasn't simply down to poor fermentation temperature. Acetaldehyde is often the culprit, as people associate the green apple aroma with cider. I've had commercial and homebrew beers with high percentages of sucrose that certainly didn't have any "twang" or "cider like" flavours.
> 
> Which Aussie megabrewers invert their sugar before brewing? I didn't know this was common practice?



The breweries get their sugars delivered in liquid form (plans for new Bluetongue brewery at Tuggerah clearly show sugar tanks) and I have always assumed that they get their sugar in the same form as UK breweries 'brewing sugar' which is inverted and comes in various caramelized colours as well. However this was an assumption only. As I said it would be interesting if someone who has worked in a brewery could confirm .. T.B for example. I'm still to go on the XXXX tour and this would be an interesting question to ask, not that the guide would probably know such details <_< 

I have used raw sugar in a couple of mashed brews and agree that it didn't give a twang as such. I never used sucrose in my Kits n Bits days, always dex or brew improver and always took it as indisputable gospel about the cidery twang thing


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## loikar (5/4/09)

Chappo said:


> So I put it to my esteemed brewers in arms RICE or SUCROSE? The poll will decide!



Hey Great man,

Bust it down the guts 50/50 if you can.
be good to see the difference.


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## bradsbrew (5/4/09)

Well. Howd the rice go. Mr Chappo


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## chappo1970 (5/4/09)

I went sugaz. Hanging my head in shame i just didn't fell right tippin' 500gr of table sugar in!!! Rice went to bridieG's vindaloo! Good day Dad, mossyrocks, Sully and myself had fun BSin' and generally talking beer and bits. Bradbrews you were missed, but loed ya beers :wub: as usual, next brew is at yours mate. I've shown 'em how to do a good brew! :lol: Hit better than my targets so I must be gettin' used to my system now I guess?


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## chappo1970 (5/4/09)

Come on give it to me???? <_<


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## Bribie G (5/4/09)

Just added 500g of sugaz to my CreamSmooth high gravity old fashioned mild. Mind that was in addition to the 500g of polenta mashed in as part of the grain bill :lol: 

Gotta get back to AA :huh:


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## Fourstar (5/4/09)

dont worry chappo, my current lager is a 'rice lager' 10% Rice and 5% sucrose! Tipped in at flameout.. i can tell there is sucrose in this lager, it last this slight nse chracterabout it... possibly the "Green apple aroma" in my ales i wouldnt even think of it being a gravity addition when its there. Maybe its just be bing such a noob at brewing lagers.

My latest shoud be my best yet, Munich unkel, pitched the yeast on her tonight at a steady 9 deg... lourrrrvley!

Cheers!


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## warrenlw63 (5/4/09)

Fourstar said:


> My latest shoud be my best yet, Munich unkel, pitched the yeast on her



Wouldn't that make your "unkel" your auntie then?  

Warren -


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## chappo1970 (5/4/09)

Plain chickened out in the end! <_<


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## Bribie G (5/4/09)

Fourstar said:


> dont worry chappo, my current lager is a 'rice lager' 10% Rice and 5% sucrose! .....................................



How timid. 20% or nothing, I say. <_<


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## Bribie G (5/4/09)

LECTURE:

The reason that adjuncts were used from the mid Nineteenth Century onwards, particularly in the UK and the USA was driven by a few factors, not necessarily related to cost. 


Glassware: yup that's right, until then beers could be cloudy or muddy but it didn't matter much if your mug was stoneware or pewter.
Golden beers: with the Industrial Revolution malt could now be produced using coke (pure carbon) so light malts were now possible and the production of lighter coloured beers became common
Malt: In the USA the six row barley yielded high nitrogen malts that could not produce clear light coloured beer without the use of adjuncts. This is why brewers like Budweiser started using rice over a hundred years ago. Despite maize being native to North America, rice became the 'default' adjunct, even in modern beers like Corona.
Fertilizer: In the UK, artificial fertilizers became available in the 19th century. They boosted production of grains incredibly but the barley tended to be high protein.. see the USA experience above... and beers started to get persistent hazes, so adjuncts such as maize became common.
Bad marks for Australia where the use of sugar is mostly a cost cutting exercise, but for a lot of international beers the use of adjuncts is not a cost cutting exercise, it is just an echo of styles that the drinking public have got used to. Some adjuncts such as maize are a hallmark of beers such as Carling or Stella Artois. In fact the American breweries now pay more for rice than malt after the recent rice shortage but are locked into their recipes

END OF LECTURE


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## Screwtop (6/4/09)

20th Century Australian breweries, especially in QLD were located long distances from malting houses, which (surprise, surprise) were located close to the grain belts. And many breweries were (surprise, surprise) located close to sugar refineries. Most were also located long distances from rice growing areas. So no prize for guessing why sugar was used in place of up to 30% of fermentables in the ales of young Australia. Sugar and house yeasts fermented warm - well - no wonder breweries switched to clean lager beers with the availability of refrigeration. 

Screwy


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## Fourstar (6/4/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Wouldn't that make your "unkel" your auntie then?
> Warren -




This will be the last time i use RDP for my PC internal of my house. Crappy wireless link with a notebook keyboard that seems to pack itself every second word you type.... useless!

If my unkel tastes like i want her to taste like I couldnt care what she wants to call herself!  



BribieG said:


> How timid. 20% or nothing, I say. <_<



I would have went more Bribie, i was just emptying the packet of rice i had on hand, was only 500g left.  I would usually do a kg but i split that bag 1/2 1/2 with corn in a CAP i made so i was just cleaning up the leftovers.


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## chappo1970 (7/4/09)

Ok just to update on the rice/no rice thing. 

On the weekend I did the sucrose version in a double batch with Dad, Sully and MossyRocks. 

However I did the rice version last night single batch for comparison. Ross, Screwy and Fourstar you all convinced me to give it a go. 80% Pale 20% Jasmine Rice (all that was in the cupboard) single hops POR again, exact same hopping schedule. One big difference 90mins mash this time, was worried about conversion of the rice plus had some bottling to do. 

I got a bloody stuck sparge AGAIN! Happend on Sunday's batch as well, might need to look at a beerbelly manifold, I meant to throw in rice gulls (which I would recommend with rice). Once it was running it was fine but took a bit to get going. What happened is the rice would settle at the bottom around the manifold so I would have to use the mash paddle and stir it up. Kept the mash temp bang on 64C for 90 mins. Mash out 77C. First runnings were good but the second runnings where very very light in colour compared to Sundays sucrose version IMO. OG 1046. S23 yeast.

The rice version was very very cloudy compared to the sucrose also tasted sweeter believe it or not and smelled cleaner? Weird? Anyway this should clarify the arguement for me at least.


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## scoundrel (7/4/09)

BOO! HISS! to rice, ive tried a lot of the asian beers( most contain rice) all i can taste after a while is rice, its all well and good if you just want to raise alc content and not change colour, but the sucrose will give you that tang and bump up alc. abit and not change colour.


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## chappo1970 (7/4/09)

scoundrelrogue said:


> BOO! HISS! to rice...


 :lol: ROFL!

Definite colour and clarity difference IMHO.


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## mje1980 (7/4/09)

scoundrelrogue said:


> BOO! HISS! to rice, ive tried a lot of the asian beers( most contain rice) all i can taste after a while is rice, its all well and good if you just want to raise alc content and not change colour, but the sucrose will give you that tang and bump up alc. abit and not change colour.




Im trying rice because i dont want the sucrose "tang". If i wanted the sucrose "tang" i wouldnt bother brewing, i'd just drink VB.


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## scoundrel (7/4/09)

ok fine i hope you enjoy having a beer that taste like special fried rice no. 4. :icon_vomit:


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## mje1980 (7/4/09)

scoundrelrogue said:


> ok fine i hope you enjoy having a beer that taste like special fried rice no. 4. :icon_vomit:



I will mate, keep enjoying your VB clones


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## AndrewQLD (7/4/09)

scoundrelrogue said:


> ok fine i hope you enjoy having a beer that taste like special fried rice no. 4. :icon_vomit:




Rubbish, I've made several lagers with rice and none tasted like you describe. maybe there's something amiss with your process.

Andrew


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## Fourstar (7/4/09)

Good work chappo, interesting you got a stuck mash, even with 80% pale malt. Ive used up to 30% rice and have avoided a stuck mash previously. Although ive only ever had a stuck mash once... that was due to my manifold coming off! 

Did you precook the rice and moosh it all up? I'd be interested to see what the flavour profile of the jasmine is like. i always use Viet broken rice. mainly because it cooks faster and is just plain old long/short grain.

If its cloudy you probably had some starch coming across into your boiler. I find mine is always very bright. Might need a protien rest next time chappo.

Scoundrelrogue... You have NFI mate. Wat are you using? left-over fried rice from your local?


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## AndrewQLD (7/4/09)

Fourstar said:


> If its cloudy you probably had some starch coming across into your boiler. I find mine is always very bright. Might need a protien rest next time chappo.



Same here Fourstar, crystal clear runoff but I do a protien rest as well, I get much better efficiency with rice too, closer to 85% rather than the 80% I get for an all malt beer.

Andrew


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## chappo1970 (7/4/09)

Fourstar said:


> Good work chappo, interesting you got a stuck mash, even with 80% pale malt. Ive used up to 30% rice and have avoided a stuck mash previously. Although ive only ever had a stuck mash once... that was due to my manifold coming off!
> 
> Did you precook the rice and moosh it all up? I'd be interested to see what the flavour profile of the jasmine is like. i always use Viet broken rice. mainly because it cooks faster and is just plain old long/short grain.
> 
> ...



Copper pipe manifold has worked well on the last 5 batches. It was just these last 2. Used Wey Pils so that might be my problem? Dunno?

Precooked rice using the absorbsion method, so basically no water left in 5lt, fluffed it up with a fork and I plonked it in the mash and gave it a bloody good stir. Like little white maggots foating around. I should have done a protein rest but was a little time restricted, next time me feels. Not to worried with the cloudiness as it will drop bright but might have a bit of haze, maybe? Tasted the rice BTW and was surprised that there was absolutely no flavour left what so ever. Very crumbly and furry as well. It that normal?

Whirfloced but was still not as bright as usual. There was a fair whack of trub almost as much as the double batch I did the day earlier.


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## mje1980 (7/4/09)

Just ran off mine. Used rice hulls and it was the fastest batch sparge for a long time. Definately like the rice hulls!!.


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## Fourstar (7/4/09)

Chappo said:


> Precooked rice using the absorbsion method, so basically no water left in 5lt, fluffed it up with a fork and I plonked it in the mash and gave it a bloody good stir.
> Tasted the rice BTW and was surprised that there was absolutely no flavour left what so ever. Very crumbly and furry as well. It that normal?



I usually do a boil of the rice until its heavily overcooked and most of the rice is broken down like congee (the asian rice soup.. almost the consistency of porridge.) Then i put that in my strike water and dough in.

Yeah you will find the rice has no flavour and usually flakes away to nothing due to all the starches being eaten up by the enzymes for conversion.

I wonder if rice flour could be used instead of just plain old rice?!?! might be a recipe for disaster if you get a stuck mash.. will be like concrete! I should probably stick wiht broken rice, it cooks faster and allot of it is open for conversion.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry431094

Thats My current rice lager, its allot birghter than in this photo. that haze is condensation..... droooool!


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## Batz (7/4/09)

AndrewQLD said:


> Rubbish, I've made several lagers with rice and none tasted like you describe. maybe there's something amiss with your process.
> 
> Andrew




+1
You should not be able to detect rice flavor at all.
Another plus is the chooks like the mashed grains even more than usual :lol: 

Batz


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## mje1980 (6/5/09)

Im drinking the first glass of my rice lager now. Pretty damn good. Its light bodied, crisp and dry. Very different to my normal bitters haha. Its a bit "green", but hey, i only kegged it 2 days ago. Definately won't be letting it "lager" haha. Im actually thinking the greenness may be the accentuated hop flavour/bitterness, although it isn't highly hopped or bittered. Finished at 1.007, and i highly carbonated it too. Seems to work well. I'll be having a few tonight while cooking dinner. Maybe i'll do a stirfry haha. 


Here's my recipe 

Kung Fu Panda Lager

79.3% pils
2.4% Dark munich
12.2% Cooked rice
6.1% Rice syrup. 


Newport 60 mins

Hallertau 10 mins
Hallertau 1min

1.046 ( only got 1.040 though, probably a good thing )
1.007
16.5 IBU
S-189 ( gave it a few days @ 18-20 for a D rest )

From 1.040 down to 1.007 gives me around 4.4%, which im happy with. 

I would do this again for sure, very different to my usual bitters haha. 

Cheers


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## chappo1970 (6/5/09)

Yep mje1980 I'm a rice converted man. I did a sucrose and rice version of the same recipe and the knock out stand out is the rice version hands down, pack it up and go home.
I'm making it again ASAP as the last keg is getting nerviously close to blowing.

Chappo


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## reviled (6/5/09)

Slightly :icon_offtopic: but still on the rice theme...


Just for you chappo ive got this in the brewing cards - with a little naming help from SJ  

*Cereal Pest APA 
*
4.5kg Pils
500g Munich
200g Cara-Munich III
700g Rice
FWH : 15g Centennial, 15g Amarillo
15 : 10g Cascade, 15g Centennial, 15g Chinook, 10g Columbus, 10g Amarillo
FO : 10g Cascade, 10g Centennial, 10g Chinook, 10g Columbus, 10g Amarillo
Dry hop : 15g Cascade, 20g Centennial, 20g Chinook, 10g Columbus, 20g Amarillo


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## Fourstar (6/5/09)

Nice looking recipe Rev! Should be a corker!




Batz said:


> You should not be able to detect rice flavor at all.




hey Batz, i actually find i detect a clean 'rice' aroma, slightly nutty. A neuance of the rice smell you get when you come home and someones been using the rice cooker all day.

As for flavour... pretty much undetectable in my books, perfect way to make a lighter bodied lager without imparting flavours. (unless you screw up the ferment temps of course)


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## chappo1970 (6/5/09)

reviled said:


> Slightly :icon_offtopic: but still on the rice theme...
> 
> 
> Just for you chappo ive got this in the brewing cards - with a little naming help from SJ
> ...



:lol: Love the name!

Looks good but I thought you weren't overly partial to the old Cascade? Or have ya had a change of heart? 

On a second look the recipe looks damn tasty the "C" hops will give it a nice kick and the Caramunich III should give it a bit of depth to match it too. Hmmmm? Might have to do a single of each recipe now? Damn I hate this forum soooo many tasty recipes so little time...

+1 4star Rice imparts nothing but goodness and a little aroma IMO. My Aussie Lager has a slight nutty and jasmine hint in the aroma but doesn't carry to the palate at all. Just lovin' the rice you would be mad to use anything else IMHO.


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## Fourstar (6/5/09)

Chappo said:


> Just lovin' the rice you would be mad to use anything else IMHO.




Polenta or Kibbled maize... cook it down hard (30 mins minimum) it will end up disolving into your mash for 90mins. My cap was the birghtest beer i have ever seen from the kettle to the cube It was almost as light as a bottle of havana club. It was such a light straw colour in between that and a post-it note.


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## reviled (6/5/09)

Haha, I hatet this forum sometimes too - I have stacks of post it notes with recipes scrawled on them, im sure ill never have enough time to brew them all <_< 

And youre almost right - I absolutely hate NZ cascade, but US cascade = :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: 

To be honest, I cant even believe they have the same name cos IMO they are two completely different hops!


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## chappo1970 (6/5/09)

Fourstar said:


> Polenta or Kibbled maize... cook it down hard (30 mins minimum) it will end up disolving into your mash for 90mins. My cap was the birghtest beer i have ever seen from the kettle to the cube It was almost as light as a bottle of havana club. It was such a light straw colour in between that and a post-it note.



I'm planning a Bo Pilsner with kibbled maize, can't wait for the results. 

I guess I should say rice in lagers are best mates.


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## Fourstar (6/5/09)

Chappo said:


> I'm planning a Bo Pilsner with kibbled maize, can't wait for the results.
> 
> I guess I should say rice in lagers are best mates.



My CAP is going to hit the slurry of my Munich lager yeast when i rack my Helles to the keg over the weekend me thinks! I'll pop a hydro sample pic on here of the clarity of the wort! Maybe i was jerkin it as it was a triple brew day and my mind had begun to fade, but from memory.. it was uber bright!

I also did a cream ale with 10% rice on the weekend. I FWH'd Cascade and EKG together... interested to see how it turns out. Rogue AAA is hopped with EKG and Cascase and thats awesome! I'm interested to see how the flavour goes on a lightly hopped, light SRM beer too.


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## reviled (6/5/09)

Fourstar said:


> My CAP is going to hit the slurry of my Munich lager yeast when i rack my Helles to the keg over the weekend me thinks! I'll pop a hydro sample pic on here of the clarity of the wort! Maybe i was jerkin it as it was a triple brew day and my mind had begun to fade, but from memory.. it was uber bright!
> 
> I also did a cream ale with 10% rice on the weekend. I FWH'd Cascade and EKG together... interested to see how it turns out. Rogue AAA is hopped with EKG and Cascase and thats awesome! I'm interested to see how the flavour goes on a lightly hopped, light SRM beer too.



Reckon you get some slightly fruity/viny character from EKG, should be good bro!

:icon_offtopic: but what did you think of the Munich Lager strain? Good for a bock? Got a 10 litre starter of it cranking away at the mo...


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## Fourstar (6/5/09)

reviled said:


> but what did you think of the Munich Lager strain? Good for a bock? Got a 10 litre starter of it cranking away at the mo...



Was great for the Munich Dunkel. The Helles has just finished Diacetyl rest, crash chilling it from tonight. So far so good. I'm happy with it. I'm letting the Dunkel Age for atleast 2months before getting right into her to taste the true flavours. Im using it with the CAP to see if i can bring out the pils richness. Should be interesting.


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## Bribie G (6/5/09)

Reviled, what's the difference between NZ Cascade and US Cascade?

I'm about to cold crash my Aussie Dark (Old) for the May Comp, I even put 500g rice in that one to tone down the body and increase the dryness of the brew as my previous Old attempt came out very drinkable but far too sweetish for the guidelines.


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## chappo1970 (6/5/09)

BribieG said:


> Reviled, what's the difference between NZ Cascade and US Cascade?
> 
> I'm about to cold crash my Aussie Dark (Old) for the May Comp, I even put 500g rice in that one to tone down the body and increase the dryness of the brew as my previous Old attempt came out very drinkable but far too sweetish for the guidelines.



RevKnut commented that he could taste black pepper overtones IIRC. Said that in the end that's all he could taste.

Chappo :icon_cheers:


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## mje1980 (6/5/09)

Really liking it. A pretty good session beer too, and a great beer for the "swill drinkers" i reckon. Im finding it quite easy to drink!!


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## chappo1970 (6/5/09)

mje1980 said:


> Really liking it. A pretty good session beer too, and a great beer for the "swill drinkers" i reckon. Im finding it quite easy to drink!!



Ahhh! But over the MegaSwill it has TASTE!!!!! :icon_drool2: Or at least that's what I found.


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## mje1980 (6/5/09)

Yep!!!!


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## reviled (7/5/09)

BribieG said:


> Reviled, what's the difference between NZ Cascade and US Cascade?



I implore anyone to do a side by side brew - youre into this sort of thing aint ya bribie? 2 x 10 litre batches one hopped with NZ cascade, the other with US cascade and let me know if you still like NZ cascade  

As Chappo mentioned - NZ cascade I get a heap of black pepper, and a heck of alot of grapefruit and really not alot else, not much citrus or anything - I also find that the lack of the oily character can make the beer seem a bit thinner..

US cascade - I get a *massive *citrus hit, and a sort of resinous oily aroma and flavour which is just devine :icon_drool2: Its on par with the other US hops just without the pine needle characteristic.. 

I reckon the side by side, the NZ cascade would seem thinner and really grapefruity with pepper overtones - whereas the US one would be complex, citrusy and oily :icon_drool2: 


Sorry for the thread jack Chappo


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## manticle (30/4/10)

Resurrecting this thread.

I have just finished bottling an aussie bitter attempt which used about 500g of rice in the mash. Rice was cooked in a steamer till very soft then thrown in to the tun and mashed with the malt.

I have gelatined, polyclared and cold conditioned and the beer is cloudy. I used 05 which normally gives crystal clear, especially after those processes. I'm assuming it's starch haze from unconverted rice and have been trying to find recommended methods for using rice in a brew. Came across a page that suggested it should be ground up (presumably while raw) then basically decocted with some base malt (held at sacch temp for 10-20 minutes then brought to a boil and boiled for a further 5-10.

Reading through this thread it seems like most people are just doing what I did. Beer tastes as I'd expect it to taste so no known infection issues and it's cloudy when warm as well as cold. Have I misunderstood something?


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## Nick JD (30/4/10)

manticle said:


> Reading through this thread it seems like most people are just doing what I did. Beer tastes as I'd expect it to taste so no known infection issues and it's cloudy when warm as well as cold. Have I misunderstood something?



When I use rice in my brews I can almost skip fining agents.

The only thing I can see that you did differently to the way I use is that you steamed your rice.

I boil, and then drain off all that white glutinous water - could be that you've put that stuff in your mash and it's persisted through without being caught by wirlfloc. Just a guess.


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## Fourstar (30/4/10)

i do mine in a rice cooker with as much water as i can fit into it and let it cookdown to a congee consistency. basically all you are doing is gelatinising it for the starches to convert. as for the cloudyness, wel it shouldnt be there. i dont get it when i make beers with rice or polenta.

is it bright when warm or just got particular matter in usspension?

as for the cereal mash you describe, you could go that direction. ThirstyBoy recommends it. Personally i havnt bothered, mainly because i get the efficiency i expect and dont run into starch issues either.


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## manticle (30/4/10)

Cloudy at all temps - it's not chill haze.

It's no major drama but it's nice to know where you went wrong and I'm trying to knock out a tasty, refreshing aussie style that less beer nerdy friends will enjoy. Would be nice to offer them bright fluid.


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## Fourstar (30/4/10)

manticle said:


> Cloudy at all temps - it's not chill haze.
> 
> It's no major drama but it's nice to know where you went wrong and I'm trying to knock out a tasty, refreshing aussie style that less beer nerdy friends will enjoy. Would be nice to offer them bright fluid.



was the wort bright before fermentation?


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## manticle (30/4/10)

From memory no untoward issues. I have done quite a few brews recently so my memory is sightly hazy (ha hazy ha).

Does starch haze show up in the unfermented wort? Stupid question possibly.


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## DKS (30/4/10)

manticle said:


> Resurrecting this thread.
> 
> I have just finished bottling an aussie bitter attempt which used about 500g of rice in the mash. Rice was cooked in a steamer till very soft then thrown in to the tun and mashed with the malt.
> 
> ...



Mantical, Ive done chappos recipe and brewed a few brews with rice. I just pre-boil the rice till really soft and a pasty glutenous scum is on top, let sit and cool, usually overnight, then chuck it in the mash, warts, scabs and all. No prob so far.
Im thinking haze/cloud could be from another source. :icon_cheers: 
Daz


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## benno1973 (30/4/10)

I recently did exactly as you describe - cook the rice in a rice cooker until done, cool, and add to the fermenter. I read about the cereal mash, but decided I'd try the easier route first up, and if it worked, why make things more complex. Anyway the result is a bright beer, no haze. Admittedly I used S-189 lager yeast and gave it 2-3 weeks cold conditioning, but certainly no haze problems that I was concerned about along the way.

How long did you mash for? I mashed 90 minutes to ensure conversion - could this be the issue?


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## manticle (30/4/10)

@DKS - the haze could be another source but I'm racking my brains as to what.

@Kaiser Soze - Mash was for 60 minutes. Fermented coolish (17) and CC'ed for about a week. Thought I racked it which I usually do but the yeast ring around the edge of the empty fermenter suggests otherwise. Also added polyclar about 3 days into cc.


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## benno1973 (30/4/10)

So it could be incomplete conversion, causing starch haze? Starch haze being different to chill haze in that it won't change relative to the temperature (which is what you're experiencing). The only other thing I could think of is that the rice was inadequately cooked, leading (essentially) to the same result.


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## manticle (30/4/10)

Kaiser Soze said:


> So it could be incomplete conversion, causing starch haze? Starch haze being different to chill haze in that it won't change relative to the temperature (which is what you're experiencing). The only other thing I could think of is that the rice was inadequately cooked, leading (essentially) to the same result.



Conversion issues is what I thought. Pretty sure the rice was well cooked - way past the sludginess at which I'd be happy to eat it.

Next time I do it I'll try the cereal/decoction method and if that works start having a play with longer mashes and the simpler way.
I thought about a longer mash but mash temp was 64-65 and there was also some sugar in the beer so I didn't want to get too dry. I think FG was around 1008.


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## NickB (30/4/10)

I have used rice quite a bit in a few beers of late, and agree that finings are almost not needed. Always clear as a bell.

My method is to boil the rice with a fairly large quantity of water till gluggy. I dough in the mash at around 50C, resting for 10 or 15 mins. I then add the rice and any water that remains in the pot with it (usually very little), and step the mash up to sacc. temp with the HERMS if the infusion doesn't get there. Might not be an option if you don't have a HERMS however I would try just infusing some extra water if you need to get up to temp.

Cheers


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## manticle (30/4/10)

So protein rest is recommended with rice or do you do that with all beers?


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## NickB (30/4/10)

mainly just rice beers as it's easier than cooking the rice and cooling down to sacc. temp. Works for me anyhow!

Cheers


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## TidalPete (30/4/10)

NickB said:


> mainly just rice beers as it's easier than cooking the rice and cooling down to sacc. temp. Works for me anyhow!
> 
> Cheers



Nick,

Ever tried mashing in at around 35-40 deg c & adding the rice while your HERMES ramps up to your specified Protein Rest temp?
I've haven't used rice just yet (Flaked Maize is my thing ATPOT) so this is just a suggestion that might improve your efficiency a little?
TP


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## NickB (30/4/10)

Haven't tried that Pete, but might give it a go next rice brew and see how I go!

Cheers!


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## chappo1970 (30/4/10)

Ahhh wice in a lager nuthin' better  

Agree with TP a B Gluc rest does no harm.


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## ledgenko (30/4/10)

Rice is great with lagers. No question! Has anyone used with pilsners or English ales?


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## chappo1970 (30/4/10)

ledgenko said:


> Rice is great with lagers. No question! Has anyone used with pilsners or English ales?




Yes to both. In a Boh Pils it was just lurverly but in an ESB to be honest it made no impact what so ever. I think the malt profiles in English Ales just dominate too much to guage any real effect.


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## The King of Spain (2/5/10)

I did a double lager batch a while ago, one with rice and one with maize. To my taste the maize had a softer taste and has been my preference ever since.


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