# Maris Otter in dark beers? Stouts, Porters etc.



## welly2 (1/10/15)

Planning a brew and I'm looking at what I've grain I've got on hand. Mainly maris otter, roasted barley and chocolate malt. I was thinking of making a stout or porter. Is maris otter a good base malt for porters/stouts as most of the recipes I see for those tend to use pale malt as the base. Unless, of course, maris otter is considered a pale malt? In which case, I'm good.


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## Grainer (1/10/15)

I tend to use it in my stouts/RIS as it adds more complexity.


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## BrewedCrudeandBitter (1/10/15)

I was under the impression that maris otter is THE base for stouts and porters.


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## seamad (1/10/15)

MO is a pale malt, all good to go.


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## welly2 (1/10/15)

Awesome. A stout it is then. Any thoughts on the recipe?

4.1kg Maris Otter
0.4kg Roasted Barley
0.2kg Chocolate Malt

40g Perle @ 60 minutes
WLP004 Irish Ale Yeast

Pretty simple!


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## idzy (1/10/15)

Looks good, there are stouts and there are stouts.

What temp you mashing at?
What is your batch size?

With the yeast, assuming you are going for something in the Irish camp. Could add another malt such as Flaked Barley, Caramel, Crystal or Rye to add a bit more to it.


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## welly2 (1/10/15)

idzy said:


> Looks good, there are stouts and there are stouts.
> 
> What temp you mashing at?
> What is your batch size?
> ...


I was thinking of mashing at about 64c, possibly even 62c, to try and make it a bit more dry. Batch size - aiming for 23L. I've got some crystal at home - Baird's Medium crystal (78 EBC), which I could stick perhaps 2-3% in? Maybe 100-150g.


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## idzy (1/10/15)

Sounds like the makings of a tasty drop. The roasted barley might be a bit high...might be better to go something like:

4.1kg Maris Otter
0.4kg Baird's Medium crystal
0.3kg Chocolate Malt
0.2kg Roasted Barley

Either way it sounds amaze-b.


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## DU99 (1/10/15)

a bit of midnight wheat


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## Bribie G (1/10/15)

For stouts I generally go at least half a kilo of roasted barley and include a number of spec malts as well as the base malt to add complexity. Even Carapils is good to encourage the creamy head.
I remember when bradsbrew used to put a whole kilo of RB into some of his stouts


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## MHB (1/10/15)

DU99 said:


> a bit of midnight wheat


On taste alone I prefer the Weyermann Chocolate/Roast wheat, If you want mellow I would look at any of the Carafa Special from the same supplier, being de-husked they tend to be a lot less bitter.

Maris Otter is a marvellous pale malt, it is used in some of the finest pale malts made in the UK. Mind you, a lot less of it than people suspect. Truth is that if all the beers that say they use Maris used only Maris there wouldn't be enough Maris to make the beer - a large amount of spin being put on what really goes into some beers.
I would save my Maris for classic Pale Ales.

For stouts and porters I find the base malt to be a lot less important, just something good, Golden Promise being a personal favourite.
I love some flake, Oat or Barley in Stouts, some Amber or Brown, and strange as it may sound some Abbey and/or Biscuit
Mark


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## Bribie G (1/10/15)

Agreed, if the quantities of Maris Otter were as reported, then the UK would be horizon to horizon in waving golden fields of MO. My go to malt for general UK use is Bairds Pearl, with Floor malted GP and MO for specific styles such as Yorkshire Bitters or London ESBs for example.


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## manticle (1/10/15)

@mhb: doesn't sound strange at all. I love a bit of aromatic and/or biscuit in stouts, porters and dark milds. The toastiness gives an extra something to balance the roast.

I am however a big fan of the character mo gives to beers, from apa to bitter to stout. Made plenty of stouts with jw ale and when I tried MO with the same recipes, it was something else. GP is also a worthy choice.


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## idzy (1/10/15)

It is going to come down to individual preferences I would say. My suggestion is probably based on my own tastes. I don't like it when they taste like you have scraped all the ash off the bbq and put it in the boil...


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## MHB (1/10/15)

I like Maris, it may sometimes sound like I'm a bit anti it but that's not the case. Maybe its just a bit of over exposure, I remember when the first genuine American Cascade arrived on the market, it was spectacular and we put it in everything, even stouts - Ones upon a time I was very poor and got a job making Lamingtons by hand, 250-300 Dozen a day, well I haven't eaten a Lamington for a couple of decades - Over exposed.

Maris doesn't make beer good, that's called brewing, not to say you cant make good beer with it - just there are lots of other good base malts out there, every time someone talks about designing a beer on AHB somewhere in the first half dozen replies will be a reflexive "Use Maris". It isn't the answer to every brewing question.
Going back to the Cascade, it is a great hop, just not necessarily the right hop for every beer!
Mark


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## manticle (1/10/15)

No. If making a tripel I wouldn't use maris.
Wouldn't use it in an alt, hefe, pils or dunkel either.
However most uk styles that I've made, maris has been perfect. One exception being a landlord homage where tf floor malted gp was the winner and I'd tend towards GP for wee heavy but mostly cos it's scottish.

I don't think you sound anti -maris - you do present it as a desirable malt and I think your point is fair and well made.

I think a lot of the 'use maris' response is simply that it's so readily available, it does bring a discernible character to so many beers (distinct from something like joe white for example) and it is quite pronounced and full flavoured.


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## MHB (1/10/15)

I'm a big fan of GP to, it isn't actually Scottish, tho it is the most widely grown and used malt in Scotland (used in lots of good whiskies to), its one of the few successful mutations achieved by shoving seed barley into a nuclear reactor and planting out the (few) survivors.
Something that was tried a lot by Ag Scientists in the 50's...

No it isn't radioactive
Mark


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## Diesel80 (1/10/15)

my best all grain was 50/50 maris / GP for the base.
Oh how i wish i wrote down what else was in there..... Still kicking myself. 

But for a base malt mix that is pretty awesome in the UK style beers i make / try to make.

Cheers,
D80


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## welly2 (1/10/15)

As far as oats go, if I was to make an oatmeal stout, could I literally use rolled oats from Woolies or Coles? Only asking because if it'll save me a bunch of postage money, I'd rather buy a bag of oats locally!


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## seamad (1/10/15)

yep, use lowan oats in wits/stouts


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## welly2 (1/10/15)

Just ordered 8kg of various speciality grains from fullpint so I should be able to add something interesting to it. Brew day when my black IPA that's currently fermenting finishes. Thanks for the tips all!


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## welly2 (1/10/15)

seamad said:


> yep, use lowan oats in wits/stouts


Oh just out of interest - quick oats or the normal ones? I did a bit of reading tonight that seems to imply the quick oats are the ones to go for as they're milled a bit finer.


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## MHB (1/10/15)

Ideally they will be a bit better gelatinised as well as finer cut, but a decent (15-20 minute) Glucanase rest is a good idea whenever using flaked anything.
Mark


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## welly2 (1/10/15)

MHB said:


> Ideally they will be a bit better gelatinised as well as finer cut, but a decent (15-20 minute) Glucanase rest is a good idea whenever using flaked anything.
> Mark


Would I be right in thinking that's a lower temperature mash step before ramping up to the mash/saccharification rest step?


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## manticle (1/10/15)

Between mid/high 30s and mid 50s but mid range optimum (mid 40s)


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## welly2 (1/10/15)

Alright. Going to go with something like this. Can't imagine it won't be bloody tasty!

3.80 kg Maris Otter 75.2 %
0.50 kg Oats, Flaked 9.9 %
0.40 kg Roasted Barley 7.9 %
0.15 kg Chocolate Malt 3.0 %
0.10 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L 2.0 %
0.10 kg Wheat, Midnight Roasted 2.0 %
40.00 g Perle [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min 30.2 IBUs
Irish Ale Yeast (White Labs #WLP004)


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## welly2 (1/10/15)

manticle said:


> Between mid/high 30s and mid 50s but mud range optimum (mid 40s)


Cheers manticle!


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## idzy (2/10/15)

For an isolated rest outside of protein rest range, I believe BYO recommends 45c for beta-glucanase rest and then 55c for protein rest.

Looking like a ripper recipe!

EDIT: Should have looked for the referenced article - https://byo.com/mead/item/1497-the-science-of-step-mashing


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## butisitart (2/10/15)

my last irish dry stout was pretty true to form, i think -
it went
4kg maris
750gm roast barley
1kg rolled barley
that's it. no choc - the roast barley gives it enough bang.
i use carapils if it's about - i like the creamy head it gives, and i think it compliments the roast barley.
but yeah - simple can taste really good on stout.
and 5-8 mls licorice extract is a hit too - adds a really nice glow on the end.

but if you start adding things after pale malt, roast barley and rolled barley, you're heading towards a porter and away from a stout.


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## Danscraftbeer (2/10/15)

Every brew is interesting at least. In for the Jackpots at most.
Most brews I make is what I have on hand. Always take notes.


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## TheWiggman (2/10/15)

Perle in a stout, interesting. From what I can garner it's quite minty. That might work well with a choc edge in a stout.


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## welly2 (2/10/15)

TheWiggman said:


> Perle in a stout, interesting. From what I can garner it's quite minty. That might work well with a choc edge in a stout.


I found the initial recipe on BYO and having never used perle, I looked it up and only found a few references, on hopunion.com and a few posts on homebrewtalk, to it being useful for stouts. Everywhere else reports it being used in German beers. I was almost thinking about going back to something like an EKG or Fuggles. Now you mention it has mint flavours, I think that could work really well. I'm going to do it!


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## MHB (2/10/15)

Perle the German Hop or Pearl the UP malt variety?
Might cause confusion, I think its the malt variety being referred to. The hop isn't what would come to mid first if I was brewing a Dark beer, tho it is a very elegant and soft "Nobel" bittering hop and would probably work well
Mark


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## Diesel80 (2/10/15)

Target or Northdown both work well in bittering only beers.


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## Barge (2/10/15)

Drinking a dry irish stout at the moment that is MO, about 10% RB and 1.5% choc. Very nice. 

Might be opening up a can of worms here but it's bittered to 35IBUs with a single 60 min addition of galaxy. I used it because it was the highest AA hop I had on hand and I was under the impression that a 60min boil would not impart any flavour, only bitterness. 

FWIW, I can't taste any "galaxyness" so I don't have a problem with it. Thoughts?


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## manticle (2/10/15)

60 minute additions will impart distinct character to some degree, hop dependent in my experience.


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## Barge (2/10/15)

Fair enough. I always put it down to history. That is, certain styles were bittered with certain varieties and it just stuck. I used to use super alpha and POR as my go to bittering addition. The last few beers have been single hop (so hallertauer, fuggles, galaxy) and I haven't really noticed a difference.

Having said that, I do eat kale salad, so my sense of taste is probably not the keenest.


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## butisitart (2/10/15)

if you eat kale salad, you could probably substitute capers for galaxy and struggle to pick the difference


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## Barge (2/10/15)

I doubt I'd notice koala scat for that matter


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## butisitart (3/10/15)

Barge said:


> I doubt I'd notice koala scat for that matter


if you live in capalaba, you should beware the koala scats falling through the airlock and into your precious


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## Barge (3/10/15)

butisitart said:


> if you live in capalaba, you should beware the koala scats falling through the airlock and into your precious


You don't see as many around here as you used to. <_<


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## welly2 (5/3/16)

Finally making this oatmeal stout. Might be my contribution to the NSW Case Swap.

Edit. seemed to go alright although the sparge took forever and a half. About an hour and twenty minutes.

Still, that rinsed the shit out of the grain and the pre-sparge gravity was 1.050, post sparge gravity (with 13L sparge water) was 1.049.





Will probably have to dilute after to hit the mark, which isn't a bad thing I suppose. Wort tastes excellent. It's as dark as the night.


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## Dan Pratt (6/3/16)

Hi Welly, I love a solid oatmeal stout. How do you plan to carbonate this? Do you cold crash and use coopers pellets or bottling bucket method?


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## welly2 (6/3/16)

Pratty1 said:


> Hi Welly, I love a solid oatmeal stout. How do you plan to carbonate this? Do you cold crash and use coopers pellets or bottling bucket method?


Yep, will be cold crashing it and I'll probably do the bottling bucket method and bulk prime it. Although I do have a load of those coopers carbonation drops, which I keep in reserve. I think I'll bulk prime it though. This is my first proper no chill so got two 10L cubes outside chilling it but it'll have to wait until next week to ferment as the fermentation fridge is currently full. Bah.


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## Blind Dog (6/3/16)

You need a bigger ferment fridge, to rethink your fermentors, or another (ie additional) ferment fridge. kind of rude to keep the cubes waiting


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## welly2 (6/3/16)

Blind Dog said:


> You need a bigger ferment fridge, to rethink your fermentors, or another (ie additional) ferment fridge. kind of rude to keep the cubes waiting


You're not wrong. I'm thinking of replacing the big(ish) fridge with two smaller bar fridges.


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