# Please help me set up Bru'n Water Correctly. Water Report attached



## goatus (13/5/15)

Hi All,

Can someone please make sure I have set up my Bru'n water correctly? I went with the middle of the min-max values for each of the measurements - is this the way to go, or should I use the max values?






Im not sure if I calculated Bicarbonate correctly - I took the Hardness as CaCO3 value from the report and multiplied it by 1.22 per the tooltip in bruin (is hardness as CaCO3 the correct source for this?).

Also not sure about the nitrate / nitrite values as they are combined on the report?

Ive attached the full report as PDF for anyone that is after the Whitfords WA water quality report.


----------



## fraser_john (13/5/15)

Does not look like you set the pH value right? Looks like you entered 7.5 but the average would be closer to 8. This then provides the bicarbonate entry for the above Anions entry. Would not worry about the Nitrate/Nitrite stuff.


----------



## goatus (13/5/15)

fraser_john said:


> Does not look like you set the pH value right? Looks like you entered 7.5 but the average would be closer to 8. This then provides the bicarbonate entry for the above Anions entry. Would not worry about the Nitrate/Nitrite stuff.


Thanks - I dunno what happened there. Everything else look good? 

Looks like my water is a right mess. How have I even been mashing in this junk?

So here is my first attempt at additions to match the pale ale profile (I mostly do hoppy pales) - feel free to tell me im doing it wrong - diluting 50% with rain water to lower the sodium and chloride a bit, then adding gypsum to get the calcium and sulphate up, and a little epsom to add some magnesium. Suggestions?


----------



## anthonyUK (13/5/15)

Using the report is much better than doing nothing but the one critical value is bicarbonate as this has the biggest impact on mash pH.
A common practice, at least here in UK is to use an aquarium test kit from Salifert to measure alkalinity. These cost approx. £8 and will do 100+ tests.
If your water doesn't change that much seasonally though it is not so important.


----------



## rude (13/5/15)

Have been play with this too Goatus live in Melville
I entered bicarbonate as alkalinity as caco3
Hardness as bicarbonate caco3 multiplied accordingly
Soon as I saw you're report I thought much like mine
I'm just going with a bit of calcium sulphate acidulated malt
I only entered 12 litres for mash & put my mash out & sparge together 30 litres not sure if this is right
Not going to add acid to sparge


----------



## rude (14/5/15)

Just read my post should be hardness as carbonate
My Melville report is worse I recon might have to get RO unit
Anyone got input on mash mashout I do 25 litre batches for pale beers
Is the mashout part of sparge ?
I would have thought so


----------



## srm (14/5/15)

Using the average is only OK if half the minimum to maximum range is relatively small compared to the value you want to achieve.

Your Sulphate at 10 min, 26 max, 18 ave plus or minus 8 when you want 300 is OK
Unfortunately, your Sodium at 87 plus or minus 33 when you want 25 and Chloride at 132 plus or minus 57 when you want 55 are not OK.

If you dilute with rain water then this difference is reduced.

Finally, there are UTube videos on using Bru'n Water. Check these out.


----------



## goatus (14/5/15)

Thanks all.

Im going to try brewing with my 50% diluted water to get as close to the pale ale style as i can per the image i posted above (obviously a touch too much sodium and chloride still, but gets me in the ballpark at least).

Ill also try making a lighter beer with 100% rain water and build it back up with salts and see if that is amazingly better.

I am currently stealing my rainwater, so if the rainwater makes a huge difference I may have to install a tank coming off the brewshed, or get myself an RO unit =)


----------



## mabrungard (14/5/15)

Don't use the Hardness value to calculate bicarbonate, use the Alkalinity value. Both are reported 'as CaCO3'. But its the alkalinity value you need to use. Fortunately, the hardness value is only slightly higher than the alkalinity value and your error shouldn't have been huge. 

I see that the Na and Cl are fairly high in that water, so dilution might be necessary in some brews.


----------



## goatus (15/5/15)

mabrungard said:


> Don't use the Hardness value to calculate bicarbonate, use the Alkalinity value. Both are reported 'as CaCO3'. But its the alkalinity value you need to use. Fortunately, the hardness value is only slightly higher than the alkalinity value and your error shouldn't have been huge.
> 
> I see that the Na and Cl are fairly high in that water, so dilution might be necessary in some brews.


Thanks mate, ill fix that up. I feel like ive fallen down another rabbit hole of brewing knowledge (always a good thing  Excited to see how much water chem improves my beers.


----------



## rude (15/5/15)

Wish you luck Goatus I've just figured out how to zoom Brun bigger so now can read it better
Have since entered my total alkalinity in the water report which has estimated my bicarbonates & carbonates for me
Mine was 65 mean caco3 so bicarbonate 78.6 & carbonate 0.4
My chloride mean is 167 & sodium 110 ppm bugger
For a APA 50% dilution gets me in the ball park plus caso4 2.4g ,mgso4 1g & 1.2 mls of lactic
End up with 5.3 mash ph
How did you get a screen shot to post Goatus might try & put mine up but will start a new thread dont wont to take over youres


----------



## goatus (15/5/15)

Hit "More Reply options" and attach your image.

Feel free to post here if you prefer. I'l probably gain more knowledge from watching other people set up their profiles also.


----------



## drsmurto (15/5/15)

goatus said:


> Thanks - I dunno what happened there. Everything else look good?
> 
> Looks like my water is a right mess. How have I even been mashing in this junk?
> 
> ...


What pH are you measuring in the mash tun?

No reason I can see why you can't brew with that water. It's a little odd they quote max and min but no average.


----------



## rude (15/5/15)

View attachment Brun Water v1_16bsi.pdf
View attachment Brun Water v1_16bsi.pdf

here is Melville report & brun entry


----------



## rude (15/5/15)

View attachment Brun Water v1_16bsi.pdf


----------



## goatus (15/5/15)

DrSmurto said:


> What pH are you measuring in the mash tun?
> 
> No reason I can see why you can't brew with that water. It's a little odd they quote max and min but no average.


Havnt measured PH up until now - I certainly get conversion - I did notice my efficiency dropped when I moved to the current address, so maybe PH is why. 

I have been having trouble getting big bright hop flavours like I used to - I am now thinking that may be the lack of sulphate and calcium in my water. So ill see how it goes with a bit of gypsum.

I was also thinking about throwing in epsom salt to up the magnesium if I dilute with rain water - but I have read that the malt will impart enough magnesium for yeast health on its own. Whats peoples feelings on this? should I ditch the epsom then?


----------



## rude (16/5/15)

I read the same goatus also enough calcium in the grain to ferment but prefered ranges for magnesium is 0-30 50 -100 calcium
Was in the brun water knowledge
Her Dr S my beers have been coming out alright but there is a harshness even a touch astringent in some pale beers no chill
played around with hopping rates but keen to try mash ph correction
I will end up getting an ro unit I think sussed out psi filters psi -020b 3 stage laundry mount look the go $220 but will be shopping around


----------



## TheWiggman (18/5/15)

This is as cheap an RO unit as I've seen, waiting patiently for my birthday so I can have a crack at a proper lager: http://onlinebrewingsupplies.com/product_info.php?products_id=683&osCsid=7iknq8adkbop8gg5hejh1rav73

Regarding your proposed additions for the pale ale, I would go easy on the gypsum to get your sulphate levels right. I did a brew with 250 PPM of sulphate and the result was very unusual when the beer was young.
For RO dilution at 50%, I'd be interested in hearing Martin's feedback on whether this can be considered 'identical' to RO water for brewing purposes.


----------



## goatus (19/5/15)

Bru'n water has the option to put your dilution percentage in, so set it to 50% RO water and see where your current water falls.


----------



## mabrungard (19/5/15)

goatus said:


> I have been having trouble getting big bright hop flavours like I used to - I am now thinking that may be the lack of sulphate and calcium in my water. So ill see how it goes with a bit of gypsum.
> 
> I was also thinking about throwing in epsom salt to up the magnesium if I dilute with rain water - but I have read that the malt will impart enough magnesium for yeast health on its own. Whats peoples feelings on this? should I ditch the epsom then?



At very low levels, Mg has little effect on flavor. But I do find that Epsom salt addition is a real bonus for hoppy beer flavor since it adds sulfate and the elevated Mg level does add to the perception of bitterness. That added Mg also reduces the amount of gypsum needed to reach the sulfate target. The calcium from the gypsum can cause the yeast to flocculate a little too early and that may affect attenuation. 

The bottom line: You don't need to add any Mg to your brewing water since the malt supplies all that is needed for the yeast, but for more flavor in hoppy beers, add it.


----------



## goatus (20/5/15)

mabrungard said:


> At very low levels, Mg has little effect on flavor. But I do find that Epsom salt addition is a real bonus for hoppy beer flavor since it adds sulfate and the elevated Mg level does add to the perception of bitterness. That added Mg also reduces the amount of gypsum needed to reach the sulfate target. The calcium from the gypsum can cause the yeast to flocculate a little too early and that may affect attenuation.
> 
> The bottom line: You don't need to add any Mg to your brewing water since the malt supplies all that is needed for the yeast, but for more flavor in hoppy beers, add it.


So sulfate from Epsom vs Sulfate from Gypsum are different? Or are you saying its just a bonus that it adds sulphates too?

Ive just seen a lot of brewers (both homebrewers and pros) suggest not to add Epsom.


----------



## mabrungard (24/5/15)

goatus said:


> So sulfate from Epsom vs Sulfate from Gypsum are different? Or are you saying its just a bonus that it adds sulphates too?
> 
> Ive just seen a lot of brewers (both homebrewers and pros) suggest not to add Epsom.


No difference in the sulfate, but there is a flavor bonus from the magnesium that goes well in a hoppy beer. That advice to avoid Epsom is well founded since it takes very little magnesium to screw up the flavor of an otherwise fine beer. 0 to 40 ppm Mg is teeny compared to 0 to 400 ppm for sulfate. So you can see that you do need to be careful with Mg additions. With that said, there is still an advantage flavorwise to having enough Mg in your hoppy and bittered beers.


----------



## Mardoo (24/5/15)

Wow, it's the Pope of Bru'nvania! Thanks for keeping up with our forum!


----------



## rude (24/5/15)

What about calcium how much does the grain add to the wort for fermentation
or is the 50 to 100ppm no worries 
Does the type of yeast you use come into play with the amount of calcium you use ie high floccer to low floccer


----------



## mabrungard (27/5/15)

rude said:


> What about calcium how much does the grain add to the wort for fermentation
> or is the 50 to 100ppm no worries
> Does the type of yeast you use come into play with the amount of calcium you use ie high floccer to low floccer


When you think about it, its no surprise that brewing yeast have evolved to thrive on the levels of Ca and Mg supplied by typical malt. In the case of both ions, the malt provides all the Ca and Mg that the yeast need for their metabolism.

Rude, you did hit on the proper point regarding yeast type. Ca and Mg both improve the tendency of yeast to flocculate. For example, the high Ca and Mg of Burton waters made the Burton beers revered for their clarity. The type of yeast does matter with respect to extra calcium supplied with the water. As most know, there are some yeast that are quick to flocculate and there are others that don't. With respect to those quick floccers, you may want to limit the amount of Ca and Mg in the water to help reduce their tendency to flocculate. Another case where you might not want a lot of flocculation is with Weizens and Wits. Reducing the Ca content does improve that cloudiness that is a mark of those styles. If you have an ale yeast that tends to be powdery, boost the Ca content and that should help improve the floccing. 

Another large distinction in Ca requirements is between lager and ale yeasts. Lager yeast performance can actually be diminished as the Ca content increases. There can be metabolic problems in lager yeast when the Ca content is too high. Keeping Ca low (<<40 ppm) for lagers is actually desirable. And while the low Ca does reduce lager yeast flocculation, the long lagering process makes the poor flocculation performance moot. For ale brewing, targeting 50 + ppm Ca is a good idea unless you want your ale to take forever to clear.


----------



## rude (27/5/15)

Thanks Martin great post very helpfull
I have thought about water additions just never went there now it has opened up a new toolbox & hopefully better beers
So Im going to dilute or use %100 RO water depending on beer style
1st up will put salts,acidulated grain in mash tun with crushed grain
Add strike water 12 litres single infusion batch sparger here & stir mash in
2nd treat mashout sparge water with acid (lactic) then heat to strike temp
Mashout collect wort then sparge & collect wort
3rd add sparge salts to kettle
How does this procedure look will only be geussing ph no meter, Melville water West Aust ph8
Also I usually leave 5 litres at the bottom of HLT so will add this volume to adjust for sparge treatment
All comments apreciated cheers


----------

