# That Guinness Twang



## hazard (16/5/09)

I'm brewing a stout at the moment, and trying to get close to real guiness taste. I have heard that a way to get the guinness "twang" is to put aside a litre of wort following the boil, let it sit in a cupboard for a week to go sour, then pasteurise and add to the fermenter.

I brewed a week ago, and am ready to rack to a secondary fermenter. The litre of wort I put aside now has an interesting cover of mould - my previous reading on the subject made no mention of this happening.

I now plan to skim the mould, boil this wort for 20 min and add to the secondary. Anybody see any problems with this? AT the very leat, maybe this mould may clear up a bad cough I haven't been able to shake!

hazard


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## t2000kw (16/5/09)

hazard said:


> I'm brewing a stout at the moment, and trying to get close to real guiness taste. I have heard that a way to get the guinness "twang" is to put aside a litre of wort following the boil, let it sit in a cupboard for a week to go sour, then pasteurise and add to the fermenter.



That's one way, but a more controlled way is to use some acidulated malt instead in your mash. (Some call it acid malt.) About 1/4 pound added to your recipe should do it.

Skimming the mold and boiling the wort even for a minute should do the trick if it is indeed sour enough (and not too sour!). Pasteurization happens at a lower temp than boiling, so that should kill off anything that might be a problem or you. 

If you can't get rid of your cough, your Guinness clone may make you forget that you have one. 

Seriously, about the cough, an expectorant can help, along with drinking a lot of water to keep the mucous thin and easy to expel. Turpin Hydrate was taken off the market here in the US, but if it's available down there I can recommend it highly as being the most effective cough remedy (it's an expectorant) ever made. We used to be able to buy it with codeine in it, and the combination was very effective.


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## Bribie G (16/5/09)

Part of the beer is fermented with brettanomyces. This is available from sponsors but unless you are going to go berserk and do a lot of brews the cost would work out prohibitive.

A couple of hundred years ago in the UK one type of dark beer was allowed to be 'infected' with brett. and this gave a flavour that was highly prized. It was called 'stale' beer (the word obviously meant something different in those days). It was expensive as it was matured for months. The beer style 'porter' originally contained a portion of 'staled' beer, and Guinness is descended from those old porters so is about the last beer to continue this old tradition.


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## Fourstar (16/5/09)

1/2 - cap full of lactic acid would be my direction for a standard 23L batch.
My standard dry stout i have ATM runs rings around a local guinness pint. I couldnt even dream of adding lactic to mine!

To each their own!

Cheers.


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## Jimmeh (16/5/09)

Fourstar said:


> 1/2 - cap full of lactic acid would be my direction for a standard 23L batch.
> My standard dry stout i have ATM runs rings around a local guinness pint. I couldnt even dream of adding lactic to mine!
> 
> To each their own!
> ...




Got a recipe mate?

Cheers Jim


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## Fourstar (16/5/09)

Ask and Thou shall recieve 

Dry Stout II 
Dry Stout 

Type: All Grain
Date: 25/04/2009 
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Brewer: Braden 
Boil Size: 30.90 L
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.0 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM) Grain 75.5 % 
0.80 kg Barley, Flaked (Thomas Fawcett) (2.0 SRM) Grain 15.1 % 
0.50 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (412.9 SRM) Grain 9.4 % 
70.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80%] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 41.8 IBU 
0.50 gm Baking Soda (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
2.50 tsp Chalk (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) Yeast-Ale 


Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.049 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG 
Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.4 % 
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.0 % 
Bitterness: 41.8 IBU 
Est Color: 30.1 SRM


Mash Profile
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Protein Rest Add 9.54 L of water at 55.9 C 50.0 C 15 min 
Saccharification Add 5.72 L of water at 92.3 C 64.0 C 60 min 
Mash Out Add 9.55 L of water at 94.9 C 75.0 C 10 min 



Water profile
Ca 117ppm
Mg 13ppm
Na 5.4ppm
SO4 130ppm
Cl 7ppm
HCO3 130ppm


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## Bribie G (16/5/09)

:icon_offtopic: Hey 4* Please explain the water salts, I thought that dark ales benefitted from soft water, so is this water a charactaristic of Dublin, Cork etc? Would this also work with an Aussie Old Hunter/Tooheys Old style?


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## TidalPete (16/5/09)

hazard said:


> I'm brewing a stout at the moment, and trying to get close to real guiness taste. I have heard that a way to get the guinness "twang" is to put aside a litre of wort following the boil, let it sit in a cupboard for a week to go sour, then pasteurise and add to the fermenter.
> 
> I brewed a week ago, and am ready to rack to a secondary fermenter. The litre of wort I put aside now has an interesting cover of mould - my previous reading on the subject made no mention of this happening.
> 
> ...



My ignorance is showing here but what Guinness Stout are we talking about? I have never had the opportunity to sample the real Guinness in Ireland & have been told when sampling the imported stuff at various "Irish pubs" that Guinness does not travel well & is nothing like the original. There also seem to be different recipes for the different countries that Guinness exports to to suit local tastebud expectations so what Guinness are we talking about?

TP


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## Bribie G (16/5/09)

In Australia we have three versions of Guinness:


The draught pub club version served on Nitrokeg, around 4.4 % ABV. To me, this tastes very similar to the UK draught Guinness available outside Ireland when I lived in Wales and England. Brewed at Yatala Qld.
The Extra Stout in Bottles, 6% ABV. This is unique to Australia. I have taken bottles of this back to the old Dart and nearly caused a riot "why can't we get this over here, this is f'n awesome". Brewed at Yatala Qld. I take it this is what the OP is referring to with the Guinness 'twang' because our bottled Guinness is a version of the Foreign Export brewed in various parts of the Commonwealth such as Nigeria etc.
The can with widget. Brewed in Ireland (they used to have a brewery in London 'the Park Royal Brewery' but I understand this has been closed down since Diageo took over (doesn't Diageo sound like a James Bond Villain  )
From the recipes I would guess that fourstar's is more No. 1 in the above list.


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## roger mellie (16/5/09)

TidalPete said:


> My ignorance is showing here but what Guinness Stout are we talking about? I have never had the opportunity to sample the real Guinness in Ireland & have been told when sampling the imported stuff at various "Irish pubs" that Guinness does not travel well & is nothing like the original. There also seem to be different recipes for the different countries that Guinness exports to to suit local tastebud expectations so what Guinness are we talking about?
> 
> TP



Sure wouldnt be the stuff from St James Gate TP. To be sure.

No hint of a twang when Guiness is fresh - velvety, minty, charred notes perhaps - but when it gets stale, or bottled - or worse - in those cans with the widget - any number of awful flavours creep in - Metal springs to mind.

Am wondering quietly why you would want to make a fresh beer with a twang?

I have made a couple of batches of Ducati Stus Stout thats in the recipe DB - very very close to Guiness IMHO.

RM


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## Bribie G (16/5/09)

Rog.

I think your post came in about the same time as mine: the question is WHAT Guinness? Sure St James's Gate and Yatala Qld produce a twang free dry draught nitro stout but the twang referred to is the Foreign Extra Stout version that is made with the old method of souring a portion of the beer with Brettanomyces or whatever.

Swig yourself a bottle of 6 percent Guinness ex Fosters and you'll see what I mean.

:icon_cheers:


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## hazard (16/5/09)

BribieG said:


> Rog.
> 
> I think your post came in about the same time as mine: the question is WHAT Guinness? Sure St James's Gate and Yatala Qld produce a twang free dry draught nitro stout but the twang referred to is the Foreign Extra Stout version that is made with the old method of souring a portion of the beer with Brettanomyces or whatever.
> 
> ...


There are plenty of internet references to support the belief that Guiness blends its stout before packaging. Dr Michael Lewis, in 1993 wrote a whole book about stout and states "The final and unique characteristic of Guinness was (and still is) derived in some part from special beers added at make-up (ie after fermentation). ..... This special material is used to manufacture Guinness Flavour Essence (GFE) as well. GFE is produced only at the St James Gate brewery and is distributed world wide to franchise brewers to impart the colour and uniqure flavour characteristics of Guinness".

That is the "twang" I am trying to emulate. SInce Guiness was taken over by the Diago, this may well have changed, and many pundits believe that Guiness lives on its reputation and is not what it used to be (I think the widget cans taste awful). I've been lucky enough to visit Dublin twice and I can say that Guiness tastes much better there tha it does here, but there are many variables and can't offer any explanantion as to why.

Historically, it was quite common to blend "old" or "stock" ale with new ale to hasten the maturation process (Brett may well have been an incidental outcome of long storage rather than a deliberate addition). Guinness surely used this approach and apparently followed it until quite recently.


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## Fourstar (16/5/09)

BribieG said:


> Hey 4* Please explain the water salts, I thought that dark ales benefitted from soft water, so is this water a charactaristic of Dublin, Cork etc? Would this also work with an Aussie Old Hunter/Tooheys Old style?



Hey bribie, hard or soft... not an issue. The key was the water is balanced witht he permanant hardness (Ca) against the alkalinity (HCO3) if you are wanting to follow in the footsteps of guinness. Dark beers really benifit from a decent whack of Carbonates to offset the acidity of the dark malts to bring down the mash pH. In the case of most dark beers when using a low mineral base water, a dose of HCO3 will bring the mash ph into balance with darks through to RIPs if your water is relatively low in minerals. The biggest issue is when adding things like chalk, you are adding permanent hardness aswell as alkalinity so they balance each other out. You can use baking soda, but you want to limit your sodium content or else things start tasing salty. At the end of the day you need todo the calculations. Maybe use beersmith or read palmers notes on the subject for in-depth info. 

Ive made this recipe twice. Once without water additions, the second with. All i can say is the second one cuts the mustard. Its hands down an awesome beer. It seems dark beers are very one dimensional when brewing AG without the use of brewing salts. (atleast with my low mineral content tap water).

The water profile i used for this beer was just something i was playing with to make the hops sing a little more with some SO4 and a equal whack of HCO3 to adjust the pH slightly. i wasnt trying to replicate any locality. From my recent calculations i probabaly should have had around 250-300PPM of HCO3. either way, 150worked well.

Next time i might use 50Ca, Cl 150, SO4 50, HCO3 250. This will push the malt side of things over the hopsas my HCO3 calculation was out in this recipe and the water profile is more suited to a dark ale. like you said 15-17SRM~ Yummm! :chug:



Edit: Yes, my recipe is pushing the #1. Without nitro, i get a nice creamy velvet head... the benifits of using a decent whack of flaked barkey


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## hazard (16/5/09)

Fourstar said:


> Edit: Yes, my recipe is pushing the #1. Without nitro, i get a nice creamy velvet head... the benifits of using a decent whack of flaked barkey


4star - did you experience any problem with sparging? I use about 20% flaked barley in my stout, although i employed a protein rest at 50 deg before saccarification rest I still got a big stuck sparge. Is there any way to avoid this?

hazard


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## t2000kw (16/5/09)

Fourstar said:


> 1/2 - cap full of lactic acid would be my direction for a standard 23L batch.
> My standard dry stout i have ATM runs rings around a local guinness pint. I couldnt even dream of adding lactic to mine!
> 
> To each their own!
> ...



That would be a great substitute for acidulated (acid) malt, and I would guess you can keep it a long time?

I agree that that "twang" isn't really needed for flavor, and I've made clones that rival the real thing without resorting to that. But if, for some reason, you wanted to make one that tasted exactly like Guinness, your lactic acid trick is quick and could be used even after the boil. 

Donald


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## Fourstar (16/5/09)

hazard said:


> 4star - did you experience any problem with sparging? I use about 20% flaked barley in my stout, although i employed a protein rest at 50 deg before saccarification rest I still got a big stuck sparge. Is there any way to avoid this?


Nope, no stuck sparge ere, How much did you use? 20%+ of flaked barley?



t2000kw said:


> That would be a great substitute for acidulated (acid) malt, and I would guess you can keep it a long time?



Im glad i have some on hand. Its good for quick fixes or tests if i want to tart up a raspberry wheat or add some lactic to a witbier. the choices are endless. Its also fun to put some on my lips then kiss SWMBO and watch her screw her face up like she just sucked a lemon!


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## t2000kw (16/5/09)

Fourstar said:


> Yes, my recipe is pushing the #1. Without nitro, i get a nice creamy velvet head... the benifits of using a decent whack of flaked barkey



Thanks for posting your recipe. I might give this one a try myself next time I want to make a dry stout.

But first a couple of questions:

1. *I like Guinness, but detest Murphy's stout. How do the rest of you feel about this? *

In the US, I've found Guinness in bottles and Murphy's in cans with that nitro widget. Maybe that's why it seems to different. Or is there a substantial difference in any incarnation of the two?

2. *Is your recipe (Dry Stout II) more like Guinness or more like Murphy's stout?
*
I wouldn't want to duplicate the one I don't like all that well. 

My first brew ever was a Guinness clone called, I believe, Toad Spit Stout. It was an extract (with specialty grains) ingredients kit from Sebastian Brewing Supply (or Homebrewing Supply), where I bought all my initial equipment. Before it even arrived I bought myself a bench capper and never used (except to try it out) the double lever capper that was included in the beginer's equipment kit. 

It was a great introduction into homebrewing to be able to make a clone as good as the real thing (my wife and I thought so, anyway) for 1/2 the price (at the time, a 24 bottle case cost us $25 USD here back in 1989), and when I got into AG I found I could slash that cost quite a bit more, maybe to 1/4 to 1/3 the retail price of the comercial stuff. (The recipe was, I think, from Papazian's book, and variations of it can be found on the Internet.)

Donald


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## roger mellie (17/5/09)

BribieG said:


> Rog.
> 
> I think your post came in about the same time as mine: the question is WHAT Guinness? Sure St James's Gate and Yatala Qld produce a twang free dry draught nitro stout but the twang referred to is the Foreign Extra Stout version that is made with the old method of souring a portion of the beer with Brettanomyces or whatever.
> 
> ...



OK Fine - have never drunk that, will give it a go just for the taste - maybe. I just shy away from rotten beer - so many flavours astound me when beer is made properly - I dont get this Brett thing. Maybe I am simple.

I lived in the Uk for 10 years, visited Dublin half a dozen times - drank a lot of Guinness draft on tap all over Blightey and Ireland - IMHO when fresh it is superb - when not fresh - pretty ordinary.

As a matter of interest - was the twangy Guiness made so it travelled? ...

In the enimitable words of Roger Mellie - Bollocks. Drink it fresh or find another tipple.

Cheers

RM


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## TidalPete (17/5/09)

hazard said:


> 4star - did you experience any problem with sparging? I use about 20% flaked barley in my stout, although i employed a protein rest at 50 deg before saccarification rest I still got a big stuck sparge. Is there any way to avoid this?
> 
> hazard



That's a lot of Flaked Barley hazard but 10% rice gulls will do the trick.
FWIW I'm a huge fan of Young's Double Chocolate Stout.

TP


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## andreic (17/5/09)

Gotta say... I've heard people talk about Guiness "twang" before... but I just don't get it!

I'm living in Dublin at the moment. When I drink a pint its smooth, slightly slick/oiley in feel, rather roasty and bitter, and very tasty!

Guiness on tap in Aus is not really the same (obviously). Its no where near as smooth and easy drinking. I actually think the nitro cans are as close to a Dublin pint as you will get in Aus.

cheers, Andrei


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## hazard (17/5/09)

TidalPete said:


> That's a lot of Flaked Barley hazard but 10% rice gulls will do the trick.
> FWIW I'm a huge fan of Young's Double Chocolate Stout.
> 
> TP


Standard recipe for guinness is 70% ale malt, 20% flaked barley, 10% roast barley, so that's what I've gone with. If using rice hulls do i need to increase volume of mash water accordingly?

I've tried Young's chocolate stout recently (its one of the few British beers left at Dan's since the takeover by Woolies), and I love chocolate and really wanted to like this, but just can't get into into it. Sort of like green curry and ice cream - I will eat huge quantitie of both individually, but would never mix them.

Hazard


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## Damian44 (17/5/09)

Ive had Guinness on tap in 20 Pubs. 17 of which where horrible but the other 3 were the best beer i have drank.


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## Polar Beer (17/5/09)

andreic said:


> I actually think the nitro cans are as close to a Dublin pint as you will get in Aus.



I agree Andrei. I would suggest this is almost the same brew as on tap in Ireland & UK, perhaps altered slightly to counter the vessel it's stored in, international travel and the unique dispensing mechanism. For flavour, it's about as close as it gets to the Dublin stuff I reckon. 

Im not sure about the twang either. But it wouldn't be a waste of grain to brew one with and one without a souring additive. The water profile would be far more important. 

The key to Guinness, as posted here already, is freshness. It's not some magic recipe only brewed in Dublin. The best Guinness in the world is in Ireland (Dublin really) because it is the nations #1 drink. Guinness could shut down all marketing in Ireland permanently and never lose that spot. The black stuff is akin to religion and pouring or storing a bad pint is grossly sacrilegious. Further, it will leave you financially ruined. With so many many other pubs to go to, very few are willing to tolerate a bad pint. As such, the competition to pour the best pint is constant. eg: You'll never get the first pint of the day in good Irish pub. That one goes straight down the drain to ensure you get a nice fresh one from the keg. 

Elsewhere in the world however...you get what you're given. It could be the first pint through the taps all day, or in days, or worse! There are good pints here. They are just harder to find. 

Cheers
PB


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## Fourstar (17/5/09)

t2000kw said:


> Thanks for posting your recipe. I might give this one a try myself next time I want to make a dry stout.
> But first a couple of questions:
> 1. *I like Guinness, but detest Murphy's stout. How do the rest of you feel about this? *



I have not had murphys so i cannot comment, sorry! h34r: 




t2000kw said:


> 2. *Is your recipe (Dry Stout II) more like Guinness or more like Murphy's stout?*



I'd say more like guinness (even though i havn't had murphys). Its a dry stout so its got a creamy/full mouthfeel. Not a lick of an astringent roast barley character which is good. Its nice and smooth on the palate, almost chocolatey with a lingering grain bitterness. Its got a pillowy head from the decent use of flaked barley and a clean smooth hop bitterness. Honestly, it keeps you coming back for more. I'd call it a 'gateway stout for' anyone interested in trying a stout for the 1st time.

If you have ever had "the craic" thats brewed @ James Squire brewpubs, its chanelling that and guinness draught. More-so towards 'the craic'. Guinness draught is quite thin on the palate where as mine has a full body and think dense foam without the use of nitro.

Follow the recipe to the T and you will suceed. I was told the 1968 yeast wouldnt go so well, I can say it turned out delish! 

I usually dont advocate adding stuff to your water if you dont know what it starts out at but this needs a really high carbonate content to buffer the dark malts. I doubt any of you will have water with a content of more than 80ppm+ of HCO3 so i will tell you to use some kind of water modification as this recipe really needs around the 300ppm mark. It will make the difference in turning the stout from being 1 dimensional to something special.

If you dont do water modifications usually, just add 2 rounded (flat) teaspoons of baking soda to your mash to up your HCO3 content to buffer the dark malts. 

If you do, I'd shoot for what i recommended the next time i plan to do it:
50Ca, Cl 150, SO4 50, HCO3 250


Cheers and beers! :beerbang:


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## TidalPete (18/5/09)

hazard said:


> Standard recipe for guinness is 70% ale malt, 20% flaked barley, 10% roast barley, so that's what I've gone with. If using rice hulls do i need to increase volume of mash water accordingly?



No.
You won't have to as rice gulls absorb a minium amount of mash liquor.

TP


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## itmechanic (18/9/09)

Fourstar,

How would Wyeast 1084 Irish ale go with this?

Cheers,

Paul



Fourstar said:


> Ask and Thou shall recieve
> 
> Dry Stout II
> Dry Stout
> ...


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## Fourstar (18/9/09)

itmechanic said:


> Fourstar,
> How would Wyeast 1084 Irish ale go with this?
> Cheers,
> Paul



I cannot forsee big issues, go for it. the biggest issue is diacetyl with that yeast, just another character i suppose 

Oh, maybe knock back a little on the roast with that recipe, maybe by 2% and sub it with base, it may be a little roasty for some. for me it was decent.

Cheers! :beerbang:


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## Jimmeh (21/9/09)

Hey Fourstar what was your actual finishing gravity with the 1968 yeast? I can see the estimated FG, but I can imagine its lower when u mash at 64.

Cheers, Jim


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## Fourstar (21/9/09)

Jimmeh said:


> Hey Fourstar what was your actual finishing gravity with the 1968 yeast? I can see the estimated FG, but I can imagine its lower when u mash at 64.
> Cheers, Jim



Actual Vs. estimate below:

Est Original Gravity: 1.049 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG 
Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.4 % 
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.0 % 
Bitterness: 41.8 IBU
Est Color: 30.1 SRM


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## Jimmeh (22/9/09)

argh woops didnt see that! thanks


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