# The People's Beer



## Jase71 (3/2/09)

I've got my name on a couple of paid market research lists, and although I haven't been called up for many (two in two years!), I was called upon a few weeks ago for one concerning beer. How could I refuse, I thought, they were paying me $100 cash to spend 1.5 hours giving feedback and hopefully a few free drinks. 

So I turn up to the place, and straight off the bat I'm handed a bottle of what some consider the Very Best beer in town. I cannot name the beer of course, nor can I suggest that it was or wasnt the Very Best. What we all know here is that's it's quite a popular choice (not here, but amongst our peers). 

It worked out that it wasn't actually to do with beer tasting, comparion or anything else of that nature, but to glean some feedback from a cross section of men between 25 & 40 on a draft for an up & coming advertising campaign. I won't get into the campaign for the same reasons I won't name this Very Best beer. What did interest me was the perception that people have of this beer, and the image that it has in the marketplace. 

To give you an idea of the attendees, it was 10 guys, mostly in their early 30's, a couple of which may have been tradesmen, the rest being in that zone of not quite traditional white collar, nor particularly conservative types, but the feeling I got was that all of them (OK... us) were the types to enjoy a few beers down at the pub from time to time. Everyone was articulate enough to express their thoughts & feelings. 

And the shock to me was this.... that apart from myself & one other guy who said that Coopers was his drink of choice, every single other person was a dedicated drinker of the beer that we were there to comment on (or at least the ad campaign). 

Right from my arrival, when we were all sitting outdoors having a couple before the market research began, someone said "oh we're all obviously here because we love this beer". I pointed out that this wasn't a question in the pre-screening process and that no, in fact I'm not a fan at all. All eyes on me now, as I tried to explain that i go for beers that are driven by flavour & character, as subtle as they may be - for example, I don't mind Schwelmer, Urquell, Dab etc - which are really not too far removed from Aussie Megaswills, but have a little more charachter. When pressed on the issue, I mentioned a couple of Aussie craft-style brews to keep it local - Murrays, Squire, Little Creatures, until blank looks all around stopped me from entering into a rant (anyway, that's not my style LOL)

So when the official research began, and we were asked to give feedback on the draft advert (think pictureboards, voiceovers etc) the host opened a discussion along the lines of "What does this beer mean to you?" Typically the concensus was that the beer in question is a no-bullshit, no pretension beverage that everyone can enjoy, that it bonds men together (WTF!?), that it's a great drop after a hard day at work and that it tastes good (again, WTF!?). It's a brand that everyone can identify with, it's a beer that they grew up around, a great working-class social leveller, one that their Dad's drank, and one that they would be sticking with, no matter what. Keep in mind what I said earlier, this wasn't a room full of yobs either (well, apart from me!). 

The extension of that was the perception of guys who go a the pub/club/venue and drink 'imported' beer (these guys knew nothing of BUL, so it's not worth a mention). The thoughts were that these people were try-hards who only buy the 'trendy' beer because they are trying to portray an image (to which I noted that their active choice in drinking this megaswill was just as much an image-driven concept, non?). In many ways I would agree that the young guy at the funky pub that orders Heinekin is being a 'scene-queen', it amazed me to observe the group's devotion to, let's face it, a pretty bland beer. 

The message that I got from this is that there's not too many people in the key demographic of beer drinkers with disposable income that are ever going to allow themselves to alter their perceptions and become familiar with the huge range of better beers available on the market, either local or imported. Which is quite sad, in that the effect on the market mean that there's little scope for growth in modern day Australia. 

And no doubt this post will turn into a 'megaswill sucks' thread yet again - butu I found it interesting to hear a bunch of articulate guys speaking out about their tastes.


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## schooey (3/2/09)

Fair dose of the old 5 gorillas in the cage mentality, huh?


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## quantocks (3/2/09)

I drink VB all the time and enjoy it. I drank an entire case on Australia Day. My brother drinks it, all my cousins drink it, pretty much everyone I know drinks it. Sure it's not the greatest, fanciest beer on earth but it does it's job (quenches your thirst, gets you pissed after a hard day!)


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## Effect (3/2/09)

Jase71 said:


> The extension of that was the perception of guys who go a the pub/club/venue and drink 'imported' beer (these guys knew nothing of BUL, so it's not worth a mention). The thoughts were that these people were try-hards who only buy the 'trendy' beer because they are trying to portray an image (to which I noted that their active choice in drinking this megaswill was just as much an image-driven concept, non?). In many ways I would agree that the young guy at the funky pub that orders Heinekin is being a 'scene-queen', it amazed me to observe the group's devotion to, let's face it, a pretty bland beer.




Or maybe they don't want to be classed as drinking the same beer that the 'commoners' drink or the rough neck people that swear a lot cause they don't know any other word (different to the people that just swear a lot). They just want to be seen as something that defers from that - it's not like they can taste the difference in the beers.

Some person has it on their signature or tagline. Lez the weiz guy I think...

Old ancient saying 'bad people drink bad beer - just look around you'


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## Brewtus (3/2/09)

Did anyone talk about wine? I bet they didn't all drink Banrock Station or Jacob's creek cause it's proper aussie wine for proper aussie blokes?


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## matti (3/2/09)

wow Jase.
That is along post.
Either way, with Reschs waiting to be consumed LOL I admire yoor effort in writing something so long about something we repel so much her on AHB another LOL

We are a different breed. I drink beer for 3 reason. Taste, relaxation and occasionally to get rolling drunk.
Now I can only get two out of three out of a Resches but it is still drinkable.

OOOPs I have onather bland brew brewing ATM.

Aussie bitter HEHEHE

it is too blimming hot for big beer at 30 degrees plus.
my 5c worth


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## Jase71 (3/2/09)

What's wrong with Banrock Station ? I'm no wine expert, but I enjoy some of their releases, and also the money they have invested in wetland regeneration schemes. Believe it or not, an area about a kilometre from me benefitted from Banrock money (and I live in the thick of an urban sprawl)


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## joecast (3/2/09)

Jase71 said:


> The message that I got from this is that there's not too many people in the key demographic of beer drinkers with disposable income that are ever going to allow themselves to alter their perceptions and become familiar with the huge range of better beers available on the market, either local or imported. Which is quite sad, in that the effect on the market mean that there's little scope for growth in modern day Australia.



sounds like its even more important than ever that we do our part to keep the craft beer market growing :chug: 
and hopefully we convert a few others along the way.


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## buttersd70 (3/2/09)

Next time you're down in Adelaide Jase, I'll take you on a short trip that will answer your questions re Banrock.


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## Fourstar (3/2/09)

quantocks said:


> I drink VB all the time and enjoy it. I drank an entire case on Australia Day. My brother drinks it, all my cousins drink it, pretty much everyone I know drinks it. Sure it's not the greatest, fanciest beer on earth but it does it's job (quenches your thirst, gets you pissed after a hard day!)


 
Now why was I the one picturing CUB's popular Low Carb beer and not VB? Besides, PB has had the same marketing campaign since release! Im sick of that stupid cut to 80's rock. Makes my living room feel like Im at an Irish pub. 

A little OT: The one thing that gets me is everyone drinks low carb thinking they are doing themselves a favour. Then continue to munch kebabs, pizza, 3 servings at a bbq or whatever else is on hand. Like having a large big mac meal and subbing the coke for a diet coke.  

Dont get me wrong there is nothing wrong with low carb beer as long as it doesnt have the mouth feel of soda water because of the piss poor terminal gravity. Take Hahn super dry, thin beer, yet crisp and well hopped. PB is much like a Bud, Bottled water. <_< 

*takes a breath* ... End rant.


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## mika (3/2/09)

Not particularly relevant, but this is a good place to post. Sitting sipping a beer at one of the outlets for a quite reasonable WA craft brew. Couple sit down behind me and I hear the waiter doing 'the sell' on the Craft beer, light refreshing beer, blah, blah blah. Did quite a good job of explaining it. From the Male "Ah...nah, I'll have a Pure Blonde thanks" :huh:
The beer suggested by the waiter was very similar to the Blonda, except with more taste.
It's kinda like going to an International Food Court and buying Macca's.

So it's not just the mentality of the died in the wool, brand aficionado's that needs to be changed.


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## Peteoz77 (3/2/09)

quantocks said:


> I drink VB all the time and enjoy it. I drank an entire case on Australia Day. My brother drinks it, all my cousins drink it, pretty much everyone I know drinks it. Sure it's not the greatest, fanciest beer on earth but it does it's job (quenches your thirst, gets you pissed after a hard day!)




High time we had a HANGIN'!


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## Brewtus (3/2/09)

Jase71 said:


> What's wrong with Banrock Station ? I'm no wine expert, but I enjoy some of their releases, and also the money they have invested in wetland regeneration schemes. Believe it or not, an area about a kilometre from me benefitted from Banrock money (and I live in the thick of an urban sprawl)



It is that Banrock or JC would love to have the market share of Very Best beer. My point was that brand loyalty for beer is very strong but brand loyalty for wine is very mild. To many Very Bogan drinkers there is only one beer and all else ('I tried a pommie beer once and it was warm and flat' attitude) is crap. If you offered a Grange Hermitage to one of the articulate guys they may get all excited but if you offered a hand crafted Trappist beer they would not understand the appeal.

My point is not about the wines I named, the guys you met or even the Very Boring beer, it is the way most drinkers will be open minded with wine but closed to anything but certain megaswills.


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## zebba (3/2/09)

I grew up in country Vic and there were only two types of beer - VB from a stubbie and Carlton Draught from the tap. Now 14 years after leaving that hell hole, I'm still forced to drink the stuff when I visit my folks as my old man still considers it to be a great drop. Thing is, he DOES have taste, and his scotch collection shows that (although admittedly I bought most of his better bottles for him  ). See, he drinks scotch for the flavour, he drinks beer cause he's worked hard in the sun all day and VB, whilst not great on the flavour front IS a 10x better thirst quencher then something like a LCPA or JSAA... 

I've tried to get him into some nicer beers, but he's not interested. VB is cheap and does the job, and the money saved can go into a nice bottle of 18yo whiskey.

Me, I'd rather buy the 18yo whiskey AND the nice beer. Although I'm not ashamed to admit that I've always got a 6 pack of Carlton Draught in the fridge for when I've had a hard day.


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## Jakechan (3/2/09)

mika said:


> Not particularly relevant, but this is a good place to post. Sitting sipping a beer at one of the outlets for a quite reasonable WA craft brew. Couple sit down behind me and I hear the waiter doing 'the sell' on the Craft beer, light refreshing beer, blah, blah blah. Did quite a good job of explaining it. From the Male "Ah...nah, I'll have a Pure Blonde thanks" :huh:
> The beer suggested by the waiter was very similar to the Blonda, except with more taste.
> It's kinda like going to an International Food Court and buying Macca's.
> 
> So it's not just the mentality of the died in the wool, brand aficionado's that needs to be changed.



In my experience this is not surprising.

I spent a couple of decades plying the oceans as an Aussie Seafarer. mostly to Asia. As soon as we would set foot on foreign soil, be it Japan, Korea, Taiwan, almost everyone would do 1 of 2 things, go straight to the nearest bar to get pissed, or go straight to Maccas. I couldnt understand it! I would crawl the back streets of Mitsushima, Yokohama or Kaohsiung seeking out amazing food and local beers on tap while the others ate and drank crap.

Ok, thats stuff you ingest, but what about music? Its the same story there. Most people I know listen to the music they knew from their youth. Its like once they hit 25 BANG! forget about anything else. As a test, who here knows about great bands like Wilco or 78Saab, or Angus And Julia Stone, or even Amy Winehouse?

People exhibit similar traits when it comes to cars, cue the whole Ford/Holden nonsense (a little different but I think it helps to make the point).

All of the above have showed me that people like the familiar and they like the convenience of being able to get what they are used to. If they go to Maccas, they KNOW what the burger will taste like, and they KNOW they can get it pretty much anywhere in the world.

They KNOW they can get Fosters or VB just about anywhere they go, and they KNOW that it will be the same non-challenging beer it was back home. That doesn't make it a good drink, it just makes it safe, because this kind of mentality does not encourage independent thought.

So I'm not surprised that you (Jase) were the only one in the room with any knowledge (I wont say _taste_ because we all have taste, its just that all our tastes are different) of different beers. If I went to work tomorrow and asked each of the 60 odd people that work there if they've heard of Little Creatures (forget the more esoteric stuff like Moo Brew) I know of one that would say he loves it and the rest wouldn't know I was talking about beer!

Cheers,
Jake


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## Mantis (3/2/09)

Peteoz77 said:


> High time we had a HANGIN'!



Good onya Pete

How to win friends and whatever the next bit is


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## Mantis (3/2/09)

Jase71 said:


> EDIT: my post was rubbish.




Yep, mine are turning to shit as well :icon_drunk:


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## Screwtop (3/2/09)

Yep, the old 5 slice (times 2), oldest marketing research con ever, obviously they got the desired result, and the cheque for producing the desired results. Accountants and Marketing dept's get the desired results to pass on to the brains trust.


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## Brewtus (3/2/09)

I am keen to be enlightened


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## Jase71 (3/2/09)

The funniest thing was that there was one guy there (the one who asked 'why dont you like Very Best beer" in the pre-MR drinks that bailed out 3/4's the way through - and I don't recall seeing him on the cash sign off sheet either. So they planted a mole amongst us.


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## Kai (3/2/09)

Well if they did then it's to their own detriment. Isn't there something about me-too bias in focus groups in basic marketing textbooks?


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## Screwtop (3/2/09)

Me Too Skew, who cares, so long as the spec is met, there's always a phone call to the MM to ask what outcome they are looking to achieve. Meeting desired outcomes assures future contracts.


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## AlphaOne (3/2/09)

Zebba said:


> VB, whilst not great on the flavour front IS a 10x better thirst quencher then something like a LCPA or JSAA...



More queching than LCPA?? sweeter and less bitter = more quenching? 10x more quenching??
I disagree heartily there.

It's hard to take the common attitude amongst beer drinkers, but hey, things are getting better.


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## Adamt (3/2/09)

Beer? Refreshing? Get me a damned powerade and a shower, then I'll sit down and have a tasty beverage.


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## Jase71 (3/2/09)

I can only speculate on the undercurrent of the meeting, but the premise genuinly was about this draft advert. Personally, I thought it was of a topical nature that isn't going to resonate anytime soon in the public domain, and I'm sure they have dome many such groups around Australia to gather opinion from a select group. I would be VERY surprised if this one ever saw the light of day. 

It really wasn't about gathering feedback on the perception of the beer - there was too much direction towards the feeling of the draft advert. 

That said, I have no doubt that 'the people upstairs' were taking notes on every bloke's thought on the brand of beer - and ultimately they would walk away with nothing more than the obvious fact that it's No. 1 in market share for that demographic (ie 25-40 year old articulate guys). That's what the mole was in there for !


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## bowie in space (4/2/09)

> As a test, who here knows about great bands like Wilco or 78Saab, or Angus And Julia Stone, or even Amy Winehouse?



78Saab are a fine australian band. Nearly the most underrated band in this country's history. I don't mind Wilco, but forget the other two.
Hey Jakechan, perhaps you should change Animals to Picture a hum, can't hear a sound! Give me the Go Betweens anyday. Or the Saints, Bad Seeds, Birdman, etc. I could go on forever about more obscure australian bands but probably OFF TOPIC. And don't wanna sound like a know it all.

Bowie


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## caleb (4/2/09)

Great post Jase71.

My opinions about marketing and market research are unprintable here... and I have seen "behind the curtain" a bit too.

Just remember - most people are Very Boring. They also have Very Bad taste. If you accept this, things will make a lot more sense. I'm not just talking about beer here either.


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## schooey (4/2/09)

Angus & Julai Stone are great! I have all their stuff, and I even paid for it.... She has an amazing voice


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## zebba (4/2/09)

B_chan said:


> More queching than LCPA?? sweeter and less bitter = more quenching? 10x more quenching??
> I disagree heartily there.


LCPA is a fine drop, far finer then VB, but I stand by my statement.


And this all reminds me of an article on Australias most awesomest news page roll: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24983...5007146,00.html



> It appeared an innocent enough admission to make in Sport Confidential but when Roosters tough nut and Origin heavy Craig Fitzgibbon revealed his favourite drink was Fiji Water and Pale Ale I wasn't the only one reaching for the rosary beads.
> 
> What has the world come to when this brutal Blues star is willing to go public with his penchant for imported H2O and worse, boutique bloody beer?


My first thought on reading this excerpt (well, second actually, after the water) was what the bloody hell is considered "boutique" now? I can only assume that they are talking about Coopers pale ale here and IMO Coopers is becoming as bogan main stream as any CUB, Tooheys, etc. If you can buy a drink at ANY bar in Australia, how the fk is it boutique?


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## MarkBastard (4/2/09)

The truth of the matter is that all beers taste a certain way and get you a certain amount of drunk.

Everything else is just irrelevant bullshit that makes you feel better about your choice. I would go as far as saying that the people that are so anti-megaswill are just as bad as the people that have never thought to try anything other than Tooheys New / VB / XXXX.

I wonder if there's a soft drink forum out there somewhere where some enlightened dickwads give crap to people for drinking coke and pepsi.

Me personally, I often eat at expensive restaurants and have a good time and appreciate fine dining, but I'll also get a kebab from down the street sometimes too. They both do their job and both have their place, just like megaswill and craft beer. The taste of megaswill doesn't really appeal to me much these days but I'd never turn my back on something that I've had so much fun drinking with my mates etc, and that got me into beer in the first place.

I remember when me and my mates were like 15 and started drinking beer, we'd get someones older brother to buy a carton of tooheys red, and we'd go halves in it. The cartons were about 20 bucks then and were the cheapest. When I was 18 and could start drinking in pubs everyone was drinking tooheys new. I got a coopers because I wanted to try it to see what it tasted like, and one friend gave me shit for it, particularly because it wasn't clear and filtered like Tooheys. I thought he was a bit of a wanker for not trying new things, but I equally think beer snobs are wankers too.

It's just a drink, you put it in your mouth and like the taste or don't. No point taking it any further than that in my opinion.


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## MarkBastard (4/2/09)

Fourstar said:


> A little OT: The one thing that gets me is everyone drinks low carb thinking they are doing themselves a favour. Then continue to munch kebabs, pizza, 3 servings at a bbq or whatever else is on hand. Like having a large big mac meal and subbing the coke for a diet coke.



I find personally that low carb beers make you less bloated and are easier to drink with food, and in particular easier to drink as a session beer. Well that's at least true with Hahn Super Dry (the only low carb beer I've drunk more than the odd carton of).

I drink coke zero because I find the normal coke too sweet these days. Also having a diet coke with a large big mac meal is a low effort way to reduce the KJ amounts significantly compared to having a normal coke. If someones gunna eat junk anyway they're doing a great thing by not having cups of sugar to wash it down!



Fourstar said:


> Take Hahn super dry, thin beer, yet crisp and well hopped.



Yeah agreed, it's a good eski beer. Can drink a lot of it.


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## Fatgodzilla (4/2/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> The truth of the matter is that all beers taste a certain way and get you a certain amount of drunk....
> 
> ....It's just a drink, you put it in your mouth and like the taste or don't. No point taking it any further than that in my opinion.



Mark, I agree with you but your arguments are wasted here cos too many beer snob yuppies on this thread simply decide to ridicule the truth. Beer is beer. Choice is choice. Preference is preference. To have a choice of beer is good, to have your preferred tipple is great but not essential. I'm quite fed up with people deriding any brew with garbage statements like "I hate VB, Tooheys, XXXX (insert your least favourite brew)". Personally I don't give a cuss what beer someone here likes or dislikes. I wish some of you blokes would post your anti anything rants somewhere else and concentrate more on home brewing and craft brewing matters.

All beer is good. Now go and grow up you whinging snobs.


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## MarkBastard (4/2/09)

I actually can't stand Tooheys New, VB, and XXXX, but that's just because I don't like the taste of them. I used to really like Tooheys Pils, I still like Tooheys old on tap, I'll drink Calrton Draught on tap if there's nothing better available, and I drink XXXX at the footy because there's nothing else.

If I was at a pub with old mates I hadn't seen in a while and the pub only had VB on tap I'd drink it without question, and I'd focus more on the company than sabotaging myself with some petty elitist crap!

Only beer I would literally refuse is that version of tooheys extra dry that's higher alcohol. Had that once and it tasted seriously vile.


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## reviled (4/2/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I'd never turn my back on something that I've had so much fun drinking with my mates etc, and that got me into beer in the first place.



You say that now, but time will tell mate.. The masses can be converted, it just needs to be done in the right way... I too was a mega swill drinker, then when I first started brewing, I was happy to go and buy some swill to drink alongside my own brews, but now, theres no fu*king way in hell that any of it will pass my lips now, reason being, my beer surpassed the beer I can buy at the shop, and now it wont satisfy me in the way that it used to, especially when I know I can make something better for a fraction of the price...

So can I really be a beer snob when I spent years drinking crap just like everyone else?


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## Fatgodzilla (4/2/09)

reviled said:


> So can I really be a beer snob when I spent years drinking crap just like everyone else?




Yes. :icon_cheers:


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## staggalee (4/2/09)

:lol:


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## jonocarroll (4/2/09)

I managed to get in on a similar thing a few years ago - a certain beverage group hired 12 uni students and tradies, 18-25 year olds, and apparently they jumped at the thought of a theoretical physicist who ran the local beer appreciation club in the mix. Go figure.

As a megaswill drinker at the time (with the notion that something was missing from tap beer that I had yet to find) it was a blast - 10 months of 'research' involved paid monthly meetings with all-you-can-drink (their products of course) which entailed yapping on about 'what we think about drink X's reputation' or 'what does the shape of drink Y's bottle say about me?' Also included a couple of 6-packs of new releases to take home and give to friends (extended research), visits to certain pubs, etc. Not too shabby considering it was a cab-charge to and from, and open bar afterwards. Everyone ended up so trashed - we ploughed through 3 months budget in a night.

It was eye-opening. The appeal that certain 'high-class' beers have among that demographic was real. Apparently one beer that is known as a 'premium' beer wasn't even aimed as such, but if people want to call it such, marketing will surely help out. It was also interesting to watch the night progress - of course we were all hammered by the end of the meeting, but they didn't hide the fact that the entire ordeal was on camera. 'Meetings' were held in various function rooms, and we had a full display fridge that was self-serve. Most guys started out on 'premium' beers, perhaps tried a beer they haven't before, but sure enough, given time and the fact that they weren't actually 'out in public' they would give the lolly-waters a go.

In the end we had our contracts cancelled early - we were getting too drunk, and after all the free stuff we go, we were apparently 'biased' ... pfft.


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## Jakechan (4/2/09)

QB, where do I sign up!


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## jonocarroll (4/2/09)

Jakechan said:


> QB, where do I sign up!


When the contract was cancelled they got us to pick suitable replacements from our mates. Cheap recruitment exercise methinks. Anyhoo - I was a particularly popular guy for quite a while. From what I recall, they gave up on SA after us, and none of my mates got the gig.


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## mattcarty (4/2/09)

bowie in space said:


> Give me the Go Betweens anyday. Or the Saints, Bad Seeds, Birdman, etc. I could go on forever about more obscure australian bands



just a point that kind of relates. 

you call these obscure bands but to me and most of my music nerd mates these are not obscure at all just general listening (for adelaide folk, my fav radio statio is 3D Radio by the way!), i have been shocked in the past when i talk about the saints and get blank stares from people i thought had good taste in punk (real punk not that top 40 pop punk crap) and australian music but then drop the name AC/DC or Cold Chisel even people who have absolutely no interest in music would be hard pressed not to have heard one of there songs.

it relates to the comment earlier about talking of little creatures or whatever other well known beer amongst people like us at AHB, for us its common knowledge and not obscure at all but for the mega swillers its a whole other scary unventured world.

some people are more than happy to chuck on Triple M and bop away to top 40 crap but for me it just doesnt cut it, i have non mainstream taste, not because im a music snob just because i know there is so much more than what the mass consumer products can offer.

just like most people are happy to walk into the pub and drink pint after pint of west end, vb or whatever but if one of us walked in and saw only those beers on tap our hearts would sink and we would want at least a squires or a creatures but the more 'obscure' the beer the better not because we are seeking non conformity or to be snobs just beacuse, for me anyway it is the constant search for something new to try and enjoy and explore new flavours etc etc wank wank wank

i like this thread its rant friendly  

Cheers
Carty


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## MarkBastard (4/2/09)

reviled, I simply drink the best beer available to me in a situation.


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## mattcarty (4/2/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> reviled, I simply drink the best beer available to me in a situation.



true that

no such thing as bad beer just good beer and better beer.

but i think the point i was making was ... not sure i kind of go on rants and lose track of where i am.... IS that although like you i will drink the best of whats on tap, depending on my mood, but we are open to trying new beers and understanding that a well crafted micro brewery beer will usually have a far better taste than the mass produced swill.

mmmm beer


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## MarkBastard (4/2/09)

matt carty said:


> true that
> 
> no such thing as bad beer just good beer and better beer.
> 
> ...



I see where you're coming from.

I see three types of beer drinkers:

1 - People that only drink mega swill and have no desire to drink anything else, e.g. decent imports or local craft beer.
2 - People that are happy to try new things, and judge it based on its merits, no matter where it was made.
3 - People that only drink certain types of beers, local craft, rare imports, etc.

Note that it is only type 2 that have a truly open mind and it is type 1 and 3 that deliberately exclude types of beer from their consumption.


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## Fatgodzilla (4/2/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I see where you're coming from.
> 
> I see three types of beer drinkers:
> 
> ...



I like the fourth variety.

4. - People that drink whatever beer is offered / available and enjoys the beers cos its better than not drinking beer. The converstaion that follows it will be cordial and not bemoaning, demeaning or self seeking. It may or may not be about beer.

:icon_cheers:


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## fraser_john (4/2/09)

Fatgodzilla said:


> I like the fourth variety.
> 
> 4. - People that drink whatever beer is offered / available and enjoys the beers cos its better than not drinking beer. The converstaion that follows it will be cordial and not bemoaning, demeaning or self seeking. It may or may not be about beer.
> 
> :icon_cheers:



+1 for that, if someone is giving me a beer , I'll take it!


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## Katherine (4/2/09)

me to unless it's in a CAN! then I will ask for a glass!


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## PostModern (4/2/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I see where you're coming from.
> 
> I see three types of beer drinkers:
> 
> ...



I'm type 2, hell, I was the first on this forum to buy a Hammer 'n' Tongs when it came out. And I judged it on it's merits. Thin, watery adjunct laden swill bittered with a trace of isohop. I know it is cheap, which is a merit, but it's shortcomings don't come close to compensating for this. Should I just drink it when something else better exists? Hell no. Said it before, will say it again, life is too short to spend drinking bad beer, no matter where it's made.


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## reviled (4/2/09)

PostModern said:


> I'm type 2, hell, I was the first on this forum to buy a Hammer 'n' Tongs when it came out. And I judged it on it's merits. Thin, watery adjunct laden swill bittered with a trace of isohop. I know it is cheap, which is a merit, but it's shortcomings don't come close to compensating for this. Should I just drink it when something else better exists? Hell no. Said it before, will say it again, life is too short to spend drinking bad beer, no matter where it's made.



Amen brother :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G (4/2/09)

I get the feeling that a huge number of Australians (including a lot of women) really like the IDEA of beer drinking but don't actually like beer. This would account for the huge sales of XXXX Gold and the sight of young ladettes with their bottle of sol with a bit of fruit in the neck.

Great example is the rellies I'm staying with at the moment - when any of the males pop in it's "Let's have a beeerrrr" - "Great, it's bloody good beeeeeeerrrrr drinkin' weather" and out come the stubbies of Cascade 2% light" 
You can almost hear them chanting 'beer, beer, beer, beer' like the Vikings in the Monty Python 'Spam' sketch.

I bought a carton of Staropramen the other day so I politely decline the wondrous Cascade.

The young set in the family, 18 - 25 mostly drink alcopops because they didn't grow up in a peer culture where beer was the only manly drink. 

It's not just beer, I often work on directory assistance in the evening and I really should do a tally - out of every hundred calls for pizza companies I guess eighty percent would be for the megaswill - Dominoes, eagle boys and Pizza Hut, and the rest would be for the Woodfired, Gourmet Pizza Kitchens etc.


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## Jase71 (4/2/09)

megachomp


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## jonocarroll (4/2/09)

I believe it was in the 'Beer Bible' that the author made a comment about Corona; "Proof that Australians don't actually like the taste of beer", or something in that vein. I would be surprised if 20% of all the mainstream beer drinkers in Australia actually knew what a 'proper' beer tasted like - rather than just megaswill.

And Jase - I believe I've already coined 'megachew' in another thread somewhere


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## 0M39A (4/2/09)

BribieG said:


> I get the feeling that a huge number of Australians (including a lot of women) really like the IDEA of beer drinking but don't actually like beer. This would account for the huge sales of XXXX Gold and the sight of young ladettes with their bottle of sol with a bit of fruit in the neck.
> 
> Great example is the rellies I'm staying with at the moment - when any of the males pop in it's "Let's have a beeerrrr" - "Great, it's bloody good beeeeeeerrrrr drinkin' weather" and out come the stubbies of Cascade 2% light"
> You can almost hear them chanting 'beer, beer, beer, beer' like the Vikings in the Monty Python 'Spam' sketch.
> ...



totally off topic, but which directory assistance do you work for? i work for 1234 and thats pretty much the case for me. it extends beyond that sometimes though, eg when people ask for say bavarian beer cafe, i like to suggest a decent beer to try (chimay, la trappe, duvel, orval, westmall etc), and most people have no idea what im talking about.


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## Katherine (4/2/09)

0M39A said:


> totally off topic, but which directory assistance do you work for? i work for 1234 and thats pretty much the case for me. it extends beyond that sometimes though, eg when people ask for say bavarian beer cafe, i like to suggest a decent beer to try (chimay, la trappe, duvel, orval, westmall etc), and most people have no idea what im talking about.



so... there's probably alot of things they know about that you dont. See once again this has turned into the same thread even though I don't think the thread starter intended it to! 

If I could make a beer like Cascade Premium Lager I would be very very happy with myself.


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## Jase71 (4/2/09)

That was a catty response.


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## PostModern (4/2/09)

Jase71 said:


> That was a catty response.



Ooooh. Haha. I see what you did there.


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## Katherine (4/2/09)

I think you should all have a saucer of milk before going to bed tonight!!!!


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## Gulpa (4/2/09)

I did one of these things in the early 90's. Who can refuse getting paid to drink beer. I got called on a number of times but it took me a few goes to answer the screening questions in the right way to get an invite.

Mine seemed to be more of market positioning exercise. They also had the Very Best beer as well as its brother, Merely Beer. The wanted to know where in the market we thought the Very Best beer sat and where they should add Merely Beer. I was a NSW lad living in Brisvegas and my comments were mostly different from the other lads.

I commented that the Very Best Beer was what you drank at the cricket cos everyone knew it didnt get that can taste. The other lads thought only the old guys in the pub drank the Very Best and that their only choice at the cricket was XBeer. We didnt agree on much else. I didnt ever get invited back. Shame really.

Cheers
Andrew.


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## peas_and_corn (4/2/09)

what is this Very Best beer you talk about? Is it Carlton Draught?


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## 0M39A (4/2/09)

Katie said:


> so... there's probably alot of things they know about that you dont. See once again this has turned into the same thread even though I don't think the thread starter intended it to!
> 
> If I could make a beer like Cascade Premium Lager I would be very very happy with myself.



no, thats not the point at all.

my point is that many people are afraid to branch out and try new things. brand name loyalty is a bad thing imo. i like to take every opportunity to try something new.


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## Jase71 (4/2/09)

Yeah ? - can you touch your toes ?


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## Margrethe (4/2/09)

Wading into this one with mah boots on...

I just want to know one thing....since when does anyone give a shyte about what beer Craig Fitzgibbon drinks? I went to school with the guy- a couple of years younger than me, but *Ugh*. Stories I could tell...not just about him but about some other well known Wollongong sports celebs!

Back on topic- as someone who has been in these 'market study' things- its usually all about how they think a particular ad campaign will work. You might have gotten a tainted bunch, and I sure felt like that too in the one I participated in (For a large chain) as I was baffled by the answers of these other people to some of the questions asked, and questions they'd asked me.

As someone who grew up where the beer you're talking about was a huge 'neighbourhood' drink, and you only sometimes saw a case of someone's home brew, most of the people I know drank it when they were young, (25-30 ish) then moved up into something else later. In my experience, that particular beverage seems popular among the younger drinking generation-even now. Not sure why that is. But since I went to Perth, and experienced both Craft Beer, and tiny vineyards making gorgeous beverages- I was lucky enough to have my palate expanded- and then being in the SCA (many SCAdians brew their own) I've been lucky enough to be exposed to a wide range there too. And then there's the English friends who exposed me to Bass and the like!

I guess I'm lucky because I've come into brewing with a non biased opinion, because I don't drink beer very often, and although Little Creatures is my fave beer, I've not had a lot of experience- so I'm looking forward to getting into working out what I like and what I don't...fun fun fun!

*That* particular beer makes me bloated, drunk very quickly, gives me a headache and makes me hungover as hell if I drink too much of it. So I avoid it now that I've got taste  

Something else for good measure: Why limit yourself to drinking one beer when there are sssssooooo many to drink!!


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## bowie in space (4/2/09)

> you call these obscure bands but to me and most of my music nerd mates these are not obscure at all just general listening



Definately not obscure listening for me either, but i was going to rant into more obscure australian bands but i know not many would have heard them. I have a 7 inch of a mob from your town, carty, exploding white mice, which is pretty hard to find these days. Greasy pop records is quite legendary among underground music folk of this country.

My beer knowledge is slowly reaching to the level of my music knowledge, but i've been interested in obscure music for a long time now, whereas my beer appreciation had to wait til i grew out of teen years and early adulthood. 

It's now becoming apparent when i talk about beer to the every day folk just how narrow minded their views are which is a problem i've faced with music for years. 

Well enough ranting. Let's enjoy some great tunes and fine brews together....in cyberspace!


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## goomboogo (4/2/09)

Katie said:


> so... there's probably alot of things they know about that you dont. See once again this has turned into the same thread even though I don't think the thread starter intended it to!
> 
> If I could make a beer like Cascade Premium Lager I would be very very happy with myself.



I had a 'Cascade Premium Lager' the other night, first one in quite a few years. I may have been having an off night but I'm sure I could detect a whack of DMS. I may be reasonably sensitive to DMS but has anyone else had this beer recently and detect DMS?


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## Mantis (4/2/09)

Someone earlier mentioned Tooheys Red. I tried it once and woke with the worst headache I have ever had, then, and since. Never again. 
Southwark is the worst beer I have ever tasted and I think I still can :icon_vomit: 
The homebrews I made years ago with coopers real ale kit cans and a kilo of white sugar, fermented at whatever the ambient temp was, are a very bad memory as well. ick

That being said, I go to the footy on Saturdays in the winter and the best they have is VB. I drink it all afternoon with the lads. The first one is not so good but after that its beer and ok. 

I really enjoy my homebrew when I get home after the footy. 
Many thanks to all on this forum that have helped me rise out of the mire.
Only days away from my first AG
:icon_chickcheers:


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## Brewtus (4/2/09)

When I am asked what my favorite beer (or song or food) is I often reply I haven't tried it yet. This is because , even though I really like some beers, there not as interesting as one I haven't tried. To be frank, you know some are going to be dud like Aldi Beer, but you still should taste them before you comment. Other times it is an adventure. I have had the pleasure of drinking in many parts of Europe an never had a Foster's there once. The honest answer is my favorite depends on the context. A weather on the day, food you are eating, location, company, recent beer you have tried all effect what I want to drink.


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## petesbrew (4/2/09)

Couple of things to post here.
1. Had a very f...ing busy day today at home sanding, painting & entertaining my 2yo daughter. Some mates were up at the bowlo, so after 2yo was bathed I ducked up for an hour. No decent beer choice at the bowlo apart from Old, but the weather called for a lighter colour.... Boags Draught. Damn it, I SMASHED that beer. Bloody beautiful. Seriously a lite would've done the job. I swear, this summer any port in a storm will do.

2. Went to 1st Choice to stock up on some wine for SWMBO. She's taken a liking to Lindemans Early Harvest. It's a low carb wine, but she likes it cos it's low alcohol.
When I couldn't find it, and asked the guy there if they had it. He scoffed, "ha, Low Carb Wines! There's no market for them". Man the shoe was definitely on the other foot that time! Still, what a muppet.


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## Muggus (4/2/09)

petesbrew said:


> Boags Draught. Damn it, I SMASHED that beer. Bloody beautiful. Seriously a lite would've done the job. I swear, this summer any port in a storm will do.


Don't mind Boags Draught. In comparison to other big name Aussie "draught" beers, it certainly takes the cake. Good to see it on tap up in more places up this way too.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, the way I see this whole "mega-swill loyalty" is based around price and availabilty.
Your typical Ausse punter hitting the pub after a long day of work is generally after something cold and refreshing naturally, and here i'd suggest having a water or something along those lines. But of course it's not that simple, people drink booze to take the edge off, and staring them right in the face of any bar is generally an array of well-known beers on tap. And naturally they're all gonna do the same thing in the end...quench thirst and take the edge off a long day with alcohol. So your punter has a choice, go with something familiar, common and cheap, something they've probably grown up with, or take a chance and go for an import or micro brew. 
For most in this situation it just seems like too much hassle, almost like taking a huge risk, choosing the micro option. Sure, it costs more, whether thats an issue or not isn't really important, rather its like taking a quantum leap of some sort drinking something thats actually well-made and flavourful.

One thing that I recall from my youth (which wasn't too long ago actually :blink was the accustomising period with beer. Getting use to the taste, mouthfeel, bitterness, that odd skunky after taste. It's quite offputting for your beginner beer drinker, and enough to put alot off beer forever. 
Half the problem here is that alot of people are essentially brought up on poorly made beer that gives all beer a bad name, because your beer novice knows no better...Does all beer taste this shit? they'll ask.
I reckon if I was brought up with nice Belgian and German beers, I would have been more inclined to try different things earlier on. Of course, it seems the vast majority are happy enough not know what other beers taste like, and that's up to them.

...woah...that was long.


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## pbrosnan (4/2/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> It's just a drink, you put it in your mouth and like the taste or don't. No point taking it any further than that in my opinion.



Download the Michael Jackson Beer Hunter series. I like your pluralist sentiments but I find that mainstream beer is vastly over-rated if you judge it by the advertisements (but then so is milk).


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## barfridge (5/2/09)

Muggus said:


> I reckon if I was brought up with nice Belgian and German beers, I would have been more inclined to try different things earlier on. Of course, it seems the vast majority are happy enough not know what other beers taste like, and that's up to them.



I was amazed when travelling through Germany and Belgium by the lack of variety in what people drank. Most just swilled the local bland pale lager (Maes, Jupiler, Stella etc), and left the fancy stuff for the tourists.

I think that also explains how few beers I ran into that I didn't recognise. Maybe the domestic consumption is low, so most of the beers are exported.

So don't think people are gifted with a better sense of taste just because they were born in a different country.


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## imellor (5/2/09)

Took my son and his mate to the Wheaty tonight and they started on the LC Pale ale. This was a great beer according to them until they tried the mountain Goat IPA my favorite which they drank for the remainder of the evening. They are both 18 and both like the beers they tasted. Until these are served at the average pub they will not be fully appreciated as your average person will not even know they exist. If a Micro Brewery had the money to spend on advertising that the major brewery's did everyone would know about them and try them. Until then it is up to us that know there is better out there to spread the word.

Cheers
Ian


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## jonocarroll (5/2/09)

Iann said:


> Until these are served at the average pub they will not be fully appreciated as your average person will not even know they exist.


Let's not forget ourselves here - as nice as it is to think that we're in some higher class of society for knowing which beers have appreciable qualities, it's entirely probably that in a hundred other forums people are saying the same thing about almost every mainstream food or drink, and probably a bunch of other products too.

It's not a personal attack on anyone, but I'm sure someone out there on the interwebs is saying _"until decent teas are served at the average cafe they will not be fully appreciated as your average person will not even know they exist."_ Granted, beer is a little more closely tied to our culture, but nonetheless we can't expect everyone to be reaching for the top shelf for every product. The top shelf is only meaningful if you fill up the shelves below it.

I still say that megaswill has it's place - how else can we know just how good our own brews are?

Once again - no harm intended. I'm far too busy today to be dragged into another argument.


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## PostModern (5/2/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> It's not a personal attack on anyone, but I'm sure someone out there on the interwebs is saying _"until decent teas are served at the average cafe they will not be fully appreciated as your average person will not even know they exist."_ Granted, beer is a little more closely tied to our culture, but nonetheless we can't expect everyone to be reaching for the top shelf for every product. The top shelf is only meaningful if you fill up the shelves below it.



This is a very valid point, and in fact, I know a tea snob. Orders his tea in from GB, does the whole ritual with the pot warming and steeping and suck. Makes a very decent cuppa. I'm not to fussy with tea and coffee, Dilmah and Moccona on my office desk, tho I do like to run a Bialetti stove-top coffee pot at home of a weekend. I guess if VB = Liptons, I'm a Hahn Premium kind of tea drinker. But tea isn't my passion. Beer is and passionate beer drinkers have to advocate better beer, if only to ensure micros remain profitable enough to keep us happy.

EDIT: Also, a point I meant to make but somehow got distracted, is that there are quality items out there in everything, but the consumers are pulled into what turns over quickest, rather than what is good. Not all of us sleep on Egyptian cotton sheets, wear French silk underwear and eat truffled lobster every day, but at least we can afford to buy or brew great beer. One of life's simple pleasures.


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## redgums500 (5/2/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I see where you're coming from.
> 
> I see three types of beer drinkers:
> 
> ...




Firstly, I am a type 2 type of beer drinker.
Secondly, Mortal Sin circa 1986/88 were truly a remarkable Aussie band.
Thirdly and am I gonna cop it for this, just because a beer comes from a Craft Brewery does Not mean that it is Better than any other beer brewed by any large or small company at least as far a the average consumer is concerned. I am all for craft breweries, they are great. It is good that people are having a go, following their dreams and trying to broaden peoples perspectives. One of the hurdles that these business are going to face in the future I believe, will be akin to what wineries face a decade ago..... product replication. 
Walk into any bottle shop carrying Craft Brewed Beer and there are endless rows of labels bearing the same thing IPA, PAle Ale, Wheat Beer etc To the average Joe its probably going to be too hard and if one asks some of the bottlo employees they will probably be told "Dunno, I don't drink the shit !" (this has happened to me on numerous occasions) That said, Average Joe heads to the domestic isle and purchases the beer by BRAND as opposed to style. 
Try this next time you are at the pub or barbie, mention the word Pilsener and you can bet the first thing that most people will say is Reschs and they either love it or hate it. Place a bottle of craft brew with XyZ craft beer Pilsener on the label and most will think that it is a Reschs clone and will not try it.
The wine industry, to their credit, has managed to overcome this. A majority of wine is purchased by style and origin as opposed to who actually made it ie. Shiraz from Hilltops as opposed to ABC Wineries Sydney St. Melbourne.
To the majority of consumers beer is beer just the same as to majority of people reading this, lamb chops are lamb chops and you really couldn't give a rats as to where the lamb was grazed or what it was fed before it landed on your plate. You just wanted a bloody lamb chop. Most blokes I know couldn't give a rats as to what hop was added to their beer or the type of malt used , they just want a bloody beer.

My 2 cents

Redgums


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## MarkBastard (5/2/09)

I don't think people just want a beer, I think they just like their chosen brand of megaswill and like it enough that they don't really seek to change it. Particularly if it's one that is readily available. I don't blame them really, it's a burden if anything having 'better' taste and thus ensuring that your preferred beer is rarely available in pubs, is more expensive, etc. Home brew is great because it solves a lot of these problems.

If the average Aussie bloke went into a bar and said 'give me a beer', everyone would laugh at him. They give yanks crap for doing that. They definitely choose their beers and are picky enough about them, they just don't choose from the more obscure range.


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## PostModern (5/2/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If the average Aussie bloke went into a bar and said 'give me a beer', everyone would laugh at him. They give yanks crap for doing that. They definitely choose their beers and are picky enough about them, they just don't choose from the more obscure range.



The average consumer is not picky, he's either too lazy to try other things, does not care or is a dyed in the wool one-eyed brand loyalist.


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## redgums500 (5/2/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I don't think people just want a beer, I think they just like their chosen brand of megaswill and like it enough that they don't really seek to change it. Particularly if it's one that is readily available. I don't blame them really, it's a burden if anything having 'better' taste and thus ensuring that your preferred beer is rarely available in pubs, is more expensive, etc. Home brew is great because it solves a lot of these problems.
> 
> If the average Aussie bloke went into a bar and said 'give me a beer', everyone would laugh at him. They give yanks crap for doing that. They definitely choose their beers and are picky enough about them, they just don't choose from the more obscure range.




Appreciate that Mark and point taken. What I probably should have said was that people just want a Brand of beer. 

cheers

Redgums


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## floppinab (5/2/09)

Brewtus said:


> Did anyone talk about wine? I bet they didn't all drink Banrock Station or Jacob's creek cause it's proper aussie wine for proper aussie blokes?



I quite like the comparison to wine in this type of discussion. Where the consumption of wine has gone in the last 30 years in this country should be (hopefully) where beer will go in the next 20. Anyone who grew up in the 70's or prior will remember the very limited selection (and quality) of wines that were drunk by the majority at that time (Cold Duck anyone???!!!). Now we're drinking a product of a much higher quality and variety from a much greater spread of producers (despite sizeable consolodation in the last 10 years).
Here's to the micro's leading us in the same way.


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## unterberg (5/2/09)

barfridge said:


> I was amazed when travelling through Germany and Belgium by the lack of variety in what people drank. Most just swilled the local bland pale lager (Maes, Jupiler, Stella etc), and left the fancy stuff for the tourists.
> 
> I think that also explains how few beers I ran into that I didn't recognise. Maybe the domestic consumption is low, so most of the beers are exported.
> 
> So don't think people are gifted with a better sense of taste just because they were born in a different country.



Where have you been in Germany? I dare say that most people drink lokal produce in Bavaria. I mean you get Heineken, Guinness, Becks and so forth and even I have some friends over there who love Becks. Also you get the bigger bavarian ones like Weihenstephan, Weltenburger, Erdinger, Paulaner, Franziskaner that you can also get here. But I would confidently say that more than half of the beer consumed is from smaller breweries that you cant get exported.


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## mattcarty (5/2/09)

bowie in space said:


> . I have a 7 inch of a mob from your town, carty, exploding white mice, which is pretty hard to find these days. Greasy pop records is quite legendary among underground music folk of this country.



nice one, i used to do a show on 3D radio here in adelaide, its a community station, they have a rule in their licence agreement that they are required to play a certain percentage (cant remember exact figures) of local adelaide bands which is easy to adhere to as the cd and record library is packed with really great music from the local scene and they actively promote bands to send in demos. good stuff.

im late for a party, in space, does that freak you out brett?

Cheers
Carty


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## MarkBastard (5/2/09)

PostModern said:


> The average consumer is not picky, he's either too lazy to try other things, does not care or is a dyed in the wool one-eyed brand loyalist.



I believe you have just described the style of 'picky' they are.


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## Pollux (5/2/09)

Ahhh, VB drinkers, they will only drink VB, Carlton Draught drinkers however will drink nearly anything, except VB...

I can recall this being the case when I used to work in pubs, the same people would drink the same beer in the same style glass (we had 3 types of schooners and 4 types of middie) everyday, no-one ever changed, except when the sterling tap got replaced with Carlton Draught, then our sales of New dropped.

I can remember when my choice of beer was made by price, this saw me drink ALOT of Bavaria a few years back as it could be had for either $10 a 6pk or $30 for a case, while local beers were hitting 15/45.

Brand loyalty is a big thing in the alcohol world, much the same as it is in tobacco sales, it's all about creating an identity to go with the product.


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## Katherine (5/2/09)

Pollux said:


> Ahhh, VB drinkers, they will only drink VB, Carlton Draught drinkers however will drink nearly anything, except VB...
> 
> I can recall this being the case when I used to work in pubs, the same people would drink the same beer in the same style glass (we had 3 types of schooners and 4 types of middie) everyday, no-one ever changed, except when the sterling tap got replaced with Carlton Draught, then our sales of New dropped.
> 
> ...



so right.... some people go to the pub daily it's a habit they go to the same pub and drink the same beer sit with the same people. They don't want to change. Why would we want to change them. Some of my good friends are just like that (I ran a Bistro next to a sportz bar were I drank LCPA out of a bottle or Stella from the taps)....

When I go to a pub I go to different ones, but if I go to Creatures Ill drink the (pale ale), sail and Anchor ( IPA), Northfolk, (Trummer), Clancys Fish Pub, (LCPA or Trummer).... So my tastes are pretty straight. 

We call them mega swill but there session beers. I could not stomach pints and pints of Chimmay or Leffe Blonde espeacially in Western Australian sun.


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## reviled (5/2/09)

Katie said:


> I could not stomach pints and pints of Chimmay or Leffe Blonde espeacially in Western Australian sun.



Id give it a go with Leffe, definately NOT with Chimay Blue h34r:


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## PostModern (5/2/09)

Katie said:


> so right.... some people go to the pub daily it's a habit they go to the same pub and drink the same beer sit with the same people. They don't want to change. Why would we want to change them. Some of my good friends are just like that (I ran a Bistro next to a sportz bar were I drank LCPA out of a bottle or Stella from the taps)....
> 
> When I go to a pub I go to different ones, but if I go to Creatures Ill drink the (pale ale), sail and Anchor ( IPA), Northfolk, (Trummer), Clancys Fish Pub, (LCPA or Trummer).... So my tastes are pretty straight.
> 
> We call them mega swill but there session beers. I could not stomach pints and pints of Chimmay or Leffe Blonde espeacially in Western Australian sun.



I would want to change them to redirect some of their beer money into smaller operations that are struggling in the current beer market in order to ultimately increase the diversity of beer available to all. That's my selfish take on it. Less selfishly, I'd like to see everyone drinking better made beer, ie quality beer made for taste rather than for a price, riddled with adjunct and hop extract. Same as I would like to see more diversity of just about everything I consume.

Your pints of Chimay in the sun is a straw man. There is a time and a place for all styles. Strong trappist beers were never intended to be session beers.


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## Katherine (5/2/09)

PostModern said:


> I would want to change them to redirect some of their beer money into smaller operations that are struggling in the current beer market in order to ultimately increase the diversity of beer available to all. That's my selfish take on it. Less selfishly, I'd like to see everyone drinking better made beer, ie quality beer made for taste rather than for a price, riddled with adjunct and hop extract. Same as I would like to see more diversity of just about everything I consume.
> 
> Your pints of Chimay in the sun is a straw man. There is a time and a place for all styles. Strong trappist beers were never intended to be session beers.



Yeah that would be nice! but maybe a little unrealistic, these are people that probably go home and eat meat and three vege every night. They won't change...

Though you can look around a pub these days and see people drinking different styles of beers and not just VB, unfortunatly it seems to be Corona or Pure Blonde! But then Little Creatures is packed pretty much daily and they don't sell anything else but softdrink and wine so as you know there is a market there and it is slowly changing.

I do understand that strong trappist beers are not meant for sessions. The people's beer Im thinking is a session beer. I would like to broaden my tastes with Australian made craft beers but were do I go to get it? Our bottle shops branch out occassionally and when they do there English or Belguim style beers. Living in Western Australia we miss out on alot of Australian Craft Brews due to shipping costs. :icon_cheers:


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## BoilerBoy (5/2/09)

Its interesting to me that in europe alot of wine is drunk watered down so as to make it an everyday or meal beverage, heck even the kids often drink it!yet this isn't done out of ignorance, they still know and appreciate decent wine and you wouldn't neccesarily here them saying my watered down wine is "THE BEST WINE" its just whatever suits the occasion.

I think what the issue is wirh beer and Australians is "Market driven ignorance" Its not that drinking tasteless crap is wrong, its just believing that its the "very best beer".

The marketeers of swill have been remarkably clever in aligning their brands as a patriotic cultural ritual, a form of popular loyalty devoid of the issue of taste.

The recent announment of Coopers to make Bud is really only symptomatic of the fact that they need to tap further into this gold mine of ignorance.

People of course are free to drink what they want, but the misinformation turns people into both perpetraters and victims of parochial stupidity!

BB


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## Katherine (5/2/09)

reviled said:


> Id give it a go with Leffe, definately NOT with Chimay Blue h34r:



A pint of Leffe Blonde :icon_vomit:


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## schooey (5/2/09)

My take on it is that we are all debating something that will never change; Human diverstity

I imagine that I am like a lot of others here, grew up in a culture where your old man and your old mans mates worked hard all day and came home and had a beer. Like all the other things that were in grained into you, so was that. I can remember having my first taste of beer and hating it, all bitter and blech.... But I drank it because thats what all my mates drank.

It took me a few years to question myself (probably in my early 20's) as to whether I drank it because I liked it or because I was just fitting in. I think at that time I resolved to the fact that I had transitioned from the latter to the former in those couple or five years that I had been drinking it, and was happy with the fact that I did drink it because I did enjoy the taste of it, as well as the culture.

I also remember at that time, trying some imported beers, as well as some other local beers and hating them. I drink Toohey's Draught, mate it's what I grew up on and it's the best...  Then moving to Sydney from the bush to go to Uni, my eyes were opened to a whole world of new cultures and beers. I let my mind open and explored different tastes... It was an exciting time

I think as we progress in this life, some of us are lucky enough to expand our minds and explore new things. Others experience a change in tastes and what they once thought was great, they now think is crap and vice-versa. Others are lucky enough to find happiness in routine. Some are just ruled by the almighty dollar... I could go on all day, you get the picture

So yeah, it's a diverse world. Some will be lured by this little marketing thing that Jase was on, some will want to defy the almighty marketing machine and make a stand against the big capo mega brewers, its all diversity. But these mega brewers are here for a reason, they have a market to service and it's not shrinking that quickly.

Anyway, I am happy to say I don't mind being in the minority in this case, I enjoy craft brewed beer immensely, and if it's available, I'll choose it over a massed produced product. I'm also happy to stand tall and say I can still enjoy a schooner of New, or Carlton when I'm thirsty. Sure it doesn't taste anything like the craft beer I enjoy, but I am not going to not drink it just to fit in because all my craft brewer friends are chanting "mega swill sucks, down with the mega swill" when I know I will enjoy it. I played that game in reverse in the first paragraph...

Diversity: It's the game of life...


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## caleb (5/2/09)

PostModern said:


> Your pints of Chimay in the sun is a straw man. There is a time and a place for all styles. Strong trappist beers were never intended to be session beers.


Of course it is... and not a very good straw man either - stuffing is falling out left right and center... yet this argument ALWAYS comes up in the end.

The irony is that American/Australian "standard lager" is not, in my opinion, even the best thirst quencher/session beer after a hard days work "drivin' a plow, or milkin' a cow". As a matter of fact, if I've gotta "have one now" I'd prefer something like a good bitter pale ale (LCPA) or perhaps a wheat beer (wit or weizzen), one of the many summer ales like JS Golden. Even a decent all-malt pilsener with reasonable bitterness is more invigorating on a hot day than the mega-swill, which is sweet, bland, and smells and tastes bad once it starts to warm up in the glass. (Plus if it's a CUB product, it has that 'dirt' taste which is hardly refreshing.)

Perversely, cases of Carlton Cold and co, continue to walk out the bottle shop door in the middle of winter when it's freezing cold and everyone is rugged up. Maybe the buyers think the ice and snowflake on the box signify that it's a winter seasonal beer!


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## PostModern (5/2/09)

Katie said:


> Living in Western Australia we miss out on alot of Australian Craft Brews due to shipping costs. :icon_cheers:



Living on the East Coast, we miss out on a lot of the great craft beers being made in the West! Beer should be a local thing (national supermarket brands aside).

A diversity of local beer is great. It will promote more styles evolving, eg Steam Beer on the West coast of the US. Local beer doesn't have 1000s of kms of shipping built into the price. It doesn't waste energy moving the beer miles from its production source. Mega breweries are onto that in some ways, eg making Tooheys in Qld and SA for the local market, but weirdly, opposite to it in other ways such as brewing JSGA in Adelaide and shipping it back to Sydney. I mean, what's with that? I'd be quite happy to drink Highgate in Melbourne, Moo in Tassy (is it?), Feral in WA, and so on. Sure, I'd miss those beers when I got home, but I can live with that. I'm not saying no beer should ever travel, but I don't often buy cases of Chimay or Unibroue or Svyturys, etc, so I'm prepared to pay a little more for the odd out-of-town or international treat.

National brands are like McDonalds. Supposedly consistent from place to place, but as boring as white bread. As I see it, it's all about the conglomerations of corporations, seeking to squeeze every last dollar out of every bit of capital they have. Fighting in our consciousness for market share in order to achieve this goal. Good beer is not what they're after. Sales are. Whatever they have to do to make and maintain sales is what they'll do and we're all the poorer for it. 



schooey said:


> So yeah, it's a diverse world. Some will be lured by this little marketing thing that Jase was on, some will want to defy the almighty marketing machine and make a stand against the big capo mega brewers, its all diversity. But these mega brewers are here for a reason, they have a market to service and it's not shrinking that quickly.



I'm happy to diversify in this way. But the market for megabrew is shrinking, at least the market for "Premium" beer is growing. I think the stats compilers don't make a distinction between small brewed craft beer and Crown Lager, tho, so the share of the Lion is still probably about the same. However, we'll chisel away at that, converting the megalagah drinkers, one palate at a time.


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## Jase71 (5/2/09)

Perhaps the issue of stangnant choices amongst Aussie guys' drinking habits can also be attributed to the lack of variety at the pub. Whilst the local suburban pubs aren't going to stock too many imports or tasty locals, even some of the 'club-style' pubs (does that make sense?) are badly lacking in the decent beer department. You have your standard tap fare, and a couple of 'imports' like Heinekin, Stella, Becks, and that's about it. So if the product simply isn't there to try, this would surely have an impact on whether someone might take a wild stab and go for an unknown, better beer. 

Of course, this doesnt apply to every pub, a lot of inner-Sydney places around Glebe & Newtown can be found to stock some great beers - as I discovered last night, the 'wine-bar' down the road from my house (and Im a long way from the city) has Little Creatures on the menu - but it would be nice to see some craft beers in the pubs, and promoted/marketed well, not just sitting in a knee-high fridge behind a can of tomato juice. 

For the record, I'll drink VB or Cralton Draught if I have no other choice, but I find that I cant get past about two schooners, and in the past if I had around four in a night, I would have a crappy headache the next morning... when I started drinking Peroni those same years ago, I noticed that this didnt happen (unless I went home after ten of them, followed by ten wild turkeys LOL).


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## MarkBastard (5/2/09)

Jase that's a very good point that's often overlooked. Goes the same with bottle shops too.


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## PostModern (5/2/09)

Comes back to transport and distribution. Easier for pubs to deal with one or maybe two suppliers, who will be either under contract to, or completely owned by a major brewery. Until the independents get their act together and organise distribution collectively, they're facing a tough battle for recognition, I reckon.


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## Jase71 (5/2/09)

PostModern said:


> Comes back to transport and distribution. Easier for pubs to deal with one or maybe two suppliers, who will be either under contract to, or completely owned by a major brewery. Until the independents get their act together and organise distribution collectively, they're facing a tough battle for recognition, I reckon.



I would disagree with that. I can think of three areas in Sydney where the Craft Brews are specifically delivering to for the bottle shops, yet the pubs aren't stocking the stuff. In one case a 'fashionable' pub with hardly any decent beers is across the road from the BWS, who stock a heap of imports and some craft locals. 

On further thought... these beers might be devivered stright to the central BBWS warehousing & distribution centre though, and they truck it to the stores themselves...... but anyway, there's other cases where independant bottleshops are going to be near pubs. It would be easy enough to incentivise the bottleshops to act as a holding pen for beers that could be picked up by the pub's staff. IF the Licensee gave a shit about some variety. (my partner is working on her boss, the local licensee to get a keg of Squire in, but I'll bet it sits there untouched! It's only just breaking out of it's blue-collar clientele, so I reckon it will be ignored by most if there's not some really good in-house promotion - and a price that equals that of VB)

So many of the pubs are owned by high-flying industry syndicates, I wouldn't be surprised if they give the instruction to the licensee to actively black-ball products that dont directly boost their share portfolio value in the grog industry.


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## PostModern (5/2/09)

Jase71 said:


> I would disagree with that. I can think of three areas in Sydney where the Craft Brews are specifically delivering to for the bottle shops, yet the pubs aren't stocking the stuff. In one case a 'fashionable' pub with hardly any decent beers is across the road from the BWS, who stock a heap of imports and some craft locals.
> 
> On further thought... these beers might be devivered stright to the central BBWS warehousing & distribution centre though, and they truck it to the stores themselves...... but anyway, there's other cases where independant bottleshops are going to be near pubs. It would be easy enough to incentivise the bottleshops to act as a holding pen for beers that could be picked up by the pub's staff. IF the Licensee gave a shit about some variety. (my partner is working on her boss, the local licensee to get a keg of Squire in, but I'll bet it sits there untouched! It's only just breaking out of it's blue-collar clientele, so I reckon it will be ignored by most if there's not some really good in-house promotion - and a price that equals that of VB)



I was thinking along the lines of a hotel wanting to stock say 10 different micro's beers. They would have 10 invoices, 10 deliveries, ten sets of prices to set, etc, compared to the one keg truck arriving, loading and pissing off which supplies 90% of their sales.

Obviously there are some pubs that give it a go and bring in some micro beer, but I think the number would be greater if "Independent Beer Distributors Pty Ltd" rocked up once a week right behind the Linfox truck and stocked the place for them, and left a single invoice.



Jase71 said:


> So many of the pubs are owned by high-flying industry syndicates, I wouldn't be surprised if they give the instruction to the licensee to actively black-ball products that dont directly boost their share portfolio value in the grog industry.



This is probably true too. Thank goodness for the small bar licensing simplification laws in NSW, hey?


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## Pollux (5/2/09)

Jase71 said:


> I would disagree with that. I can think of three areas in Sydney where the Craft Brews are specifically delivering to for the bottle shops, yet the pubs aren't stocking the stuff. In one case a 'fashionable' pub with hardly any decent beers is across the road from the BWS, who stock a heap of imports and some craft locals.



PoMo is right, pubs like to receive TWO invoices for beer, one from Lion Nathan, the other previously from CUB (now trading as Fosters Group).... 

That's the way it's been for years, and in NSW (at least this was the case 3 years ago when I was running pubs) the only way you could get something as "exotic" as Coopers Pale Ale was through someone like HLW (Hotel liquor wholesalers) and most of their trucks are full of bottles of spirits/RTDs

Back then we had 5 lots of invoices

Lion Nathan
CUB
Coca-cola Ltd
HLW
Our wine supplier (forgotten the company name now)

Any beer that didn't come from LN or CUB came through HLW at a higher price than the potential cost if we purchased straight from the supplier, but with beers like these not selling quickly, we never met the minimum quota to get free delivery, so it was just easier to order it with the spirits.


Just a little insight from someone who has actually worked in the industry.


EDIT: Jase, just noticed your partner is working on her boss, the local licensee.....She doesn't work at the concord hotel does she?? That was the first pub I ever worked at in Sydney.


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## Jase71 (5/2/09)

No, not the Concord Hotel. God that place is STILL awful (Ive been living in the area for about four/five years, and this pub seems to get worse with time). 

Good points raised about the inventory management.. I suppose the key point here is having independant distros that can get the product into the pubs for a great price. OR send sales reps out with a uteload, and they can target two or three pubs, deviver some stock (lets face it, turnover wouldnt he huge at a VB-Centric pub) and get some serious marketing paraphanalia in the door (posters, promotional prizes, all taht sort of shit). ANYTHING to get the beers in the pub, I reckon. 

Pure speculation only, I know SFA about the industry.


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## Jase71 (5/2/09)

Pollux said:


> EDIT: Jase, just noticed your partner is working on her boss, the local licensee



LOL, and she doesn't like Squire enough to do what was implied by _that_ sentence !


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## Pollux (5/2/09)

Not quite the intent there.....I think you have something on the mind....

As for independent distro's, they do exist, I have had some experience with them in the past. 

They offered me beers like TsingTao and a few others at prices cheaper than I would be paying for CD or VB in cases.....provided I bought 50 cases at once....

I simply ran beer of the month promo's and what I couldn't shift, I took home to drink.


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