# Huge Bubblegum Flavour In Hefe-weizen



## SJW (19/2/08)

I kegged my second Hefe yesterday and it has heaps of bubblegum aroma and flavour. The main diff was I fermented this at 28 deg C and stopped the fermentation at 1.014.(Although it was slowing right down by then). The OG was very high though 1.062. I used the WB-06 and use JW Wheat this time at 60% milled to flour and hit 85% at 25 litres so I added 5 litres of water to the fermenter. I also did a protein rest this time, and pitched the yeast without airating the wort and it was going nuts withing 6 hours. Looks like being a great beer.

Steve

#56 Hefe-Weizen 
Bavarian Weizen (Weissbier) 

Date: 14/02/2008 
Batch Size: 30.00 L
Brewer: Stephen Wright 
Boil Size: 38.46 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Keg 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 81.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4000.00 gm Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EBC) Grain 60.61 % 
2500.00 gm Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) Grain 37.88 % 
100.00 gm Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 1.52 % 
50.00 gm Saaz [2.50 %] (60 min) Hops 10.1 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Weizen (Fermentis #WB-06) Yeast-Wheat 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.056 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.056 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.55 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.48 % 
Bitterness: 10.1 IBU Calories: 529 cal/l 
Est Color: 7.9 EBC Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Double Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 6600.00 gm 
Sparge Water: 25.07 L Grain Temperature: 15.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 15.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.2 PH 

Double Infusion, Medium Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
20 min Protein Rest Add 10.00 L of water at 61.3 C 52.0 C 
90 min Saccrification Add 10.00 L of water at 85.8 C 67.0 C


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## voota (19/2/08)

28degrees is far too hot for a hefe... that is where all those bubblegum (and banana etc.) esters will come from. I personally don't (deliberately) ferment a hefeweizen over 20deg.


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## mje1980 (19/2/08)

SJW said:


> I kegged my second Hefe yesterday and it has heaps of bubblegum aroma and flavour. The main diff was I fermented this at 28 deg C and stopped the fermentation at 1.014.(Although it was slowing right down by then). The OG was very high though 1.062. I used the WB-06 and use JW Wheat this time at 60% milled to flour and hit 85% at 25 litres so I added 5 litres of water to the fermenter. I also did a protein rest this time, and pitched the yeast without airating the wort and it was going nuts withing 6 hours. Looks like being a great beer.
> 
> Steve
> 
> ...




Very interesting, just brewed a wheat with that yeast, and started it cold ( 10c ), and kept it under 20c, and it has very little banana. SAH tried it, and he had the same ( i did it because he had good results doing it ). SAH, are you there??, im sure he'll read this and chime in, and explain further.


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## kevnlis (19/2/08)

I recently used WB-06 and got very little of the Banana or Bubble Gum esters you woudl expect. In fact I got very little ester at all. I fermented at 21C and the SG was somewhere around 1.050. They were both very dry and bland, hard to explain really. I think I will give this yeast a second go, but ferment at 23-23 this time.


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## bconnery (19/2/08)

Well yes. I mean imagine a hefeweizen with banana and bubblegum esters...  <_<  

The general consensus on wb06 has so far been that it doesn't produce much in the way of these characteristics, more on the clove side of things, so it is interesting to hear that these came through. 
Maybe no one has gone quite as high as SJW so far...
Could also be related to the slightly higher gravity perhaps?

Most people following similar routines / temps to the 18-22C and rule of 30 have still been getting not much in the way of banana, at least last I read, from this yeast...


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## Cortez The Killer (19/2/08)

mje1980 said:


> Very interesting, just brewed a wheat with that yeast, and started it cold ( 10c ), and kept it under 20c, and it has very little banana. SAH tried it, and he had the same ( i did it because he had good results doing it ). SAH, are you there??, im sure he'll read this and chime in, and explain further.


I had the pleasure of sampling SAH's Hefe and it was a top drop

50% Wheat
50% Pils 
And Spalter to about 15 IBU from memory

Cheers


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## mje1980 (19/2/08)

Cortez The Killer said:


> I had the pleasure of sampling SAH's Hefe and it was a top drop
> 
> 50% Wheat
> 50% Pils
> ...


 

Yeah me too, that's why i brewed one the same way he did!!!!


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## PJO (19/2/08)

SJW said:


> I kegged my second Hefe yesterday and it has heaps of bubblegum aroma and flavour. The main diff was I fermented this at 28 deg C and stopped the fermentation at 1.014.(Although it was slowing right down by then).



Interesting! :icon_cheers: 

I just kegged a Hefe which was a 50L batch split brewed between WY3068 abd WB-06. Both beers were pitched at 15C and fermented at 15-16C, until gravity was near completion (around 1.016) and then allowed to rise to 20C for the last couple of days. (OG 1.052 FG 1.009).

The 3068 is wonderful with classic weizen character, has a nice (reasonably low) level of clove and banana. While the WB-06 has detectable phenolics (type not as pleasant as 3068) and no noticeable banana, but some other type of fruity esters (type I can't quite pick).
The WB-06 has an low level of undesirable bready flavour and also more tang (sourness).
Both are quite drinkable but at the 3068 is markedly better.

By the sounds of your ferment, WB-06 needs a higher temperature to develop the banana ester, how strong are the phenolic flavours??

Cheers,
PJO


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## PostModern (19/2/08)

I have a 1.074 weizenbock currently in the fermentation fridge. I have it 12 hours at ambient, in which it climbed to 26C. I now have it at 18C. I'm hoping for tangy, estery and phenolic. Pitched just one WB-06 to stress the yeast into ester production. Will report back on the weekend when I keg.


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## SJW (19/2/08)

It was obvious to me, with everyone saying that they were not getting any Banana/bubblegum with the WB-06 fermenting at 20 deg C, I tried this one at 28/30 deg C, and its a cracker. Just because the rule book says not to ferment that high, that's a great reason to give it a go. IMO.
I would be interested to hear about anyone elses results with this yeast at this temp. I also think the 1.014 F.G. Might have something to do with it. Its big sweet, bananary and bubble gummy very different to my first attempt with German Wheat, single infusion and fermented at 20 deg C.

Steve


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## blackbock (19/2/08)

SJW I reckon you're right about the higher FG giving a better result - the problem could be that over time it might dry out a little, even if you keep it at serving temperatures. Of course this depends on how long the keg lasts!


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## mje1980 (19/2/08)

blackbock said:


> SJW I reckon you're right about the higher FG giving a better result - the problem could be that over time it might dry out a little, even if you keep it at serving temperatures. Of course this depends on how long the keg lasts!




HA, my keg isn't gunna last long, that's for sure!


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## SJW (19/2/08)

Well with a German Black Lager, a Irish Red and an English Special Bitter also on tap it should last a month or so, but its hard to go past a nice fresh Wheat beer!


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## Kai (19/2/08)

SJW said:


> It was obvious to me, with everyone saying that they were not getting any Banana/bubblegum with the WB-06 fermenting at 20 deg C, I tried this one at 28/30 deg C, and its a cracker. Just because the rule book says not to ferment that high, that's a great reason to give it a go. IMO.
> I would be interested to hear about anyone elses results with this yeast at this temp.



I'm half-tempted to try. The bready-tart-clovey profile of it at more 'normal' temps was just too much for me.


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## Kingy (19/2/08)

i brewed the same recipe 50/50 pils and wheat. One brew was on 18-20 and was ok to drink with no real bubblegum etc.etc. The next one was brewed at 23-25 and was bloody beutiful. (both OG's were 1051)

A mate i aint seen in a long time and has no idea on brewing turned up and his first comment was, it looks like orange juice and tastes like bubblegum. :lol:

edit:high temperature brewing: I brewed a bock at 18 degrees by mistake and was the best bock ive ever tried


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## NRB (19/2/08)

and no big headaches the following day? That would be my only worry... if you've had good results, I'm tempted to have a crack myself!


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## sah (19/2/08)

WB-06 is a very versatile yeast by reports posted on this thread and others.

It produced a lovely balanced Hefe for me. The beer was sampled by quite a few people including many of the IBUs.

It was dry but not tart, good balance of banana and bubblegum with some clove.

The vitals:
Single infusion mash at 66.5C
OG 1.041
FG 1.006
AA 85%
Pitched at 9C
Fermented at 18C

Recipe was as Cortez noted but 14 IBU.

SJW, your AA is 77%, at 28C I'm surprised you didn't have a Coffs Harbour banana planation relocate to your fermenter.

regards,
Scott


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## SJW (19/2/08)

> SJW, your AA is 77%, at 28C I'm surprised you didn't have a Coffs Harbour banana planation relocate to your fermenter


Its not over the top but I must says there is no way near as much tartness in this compareed with my first, brewed at 20, and single infusion. But I did use German Wheat in that one.
Also beersmith says AA was 74%?
Steve


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## sah (19/2/08)

SJW said:


> Also beersmith says AA was 74%?



I used the figures you provided in your initial post 1 - 14/62 = 77.4%


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## SJW (19/2/08)

Sorry SAH I forgot I added some water to the fermenter and it came down to 1.056. Sorry


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## Zizzle (20/2/08)

I have only done one beer with WB-06, a 50/50 like others.

I tasted it every day during the ferment which was at 22 degrees. After a day or so, there was a lot of bubblegum aroma & flavour, and the gravity was still highish making it taste quite sweet. Liquid bubblegum. I was quite excited. Unfortunately as the gravity dropped all that bubblegum was replaced with cloves.


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## rich_lamb (20/2/08)

Yeah, it's an interesting yeast alright - certainly worth looking at.
I used it recently in a weizenbock as good ol' HBS had run out of 3068.

I fermented at 19 and got what I would say is a nice weizen character; subdued bananas with more cloves. This varies to taste though - I used to like more bananas myself. Clearly the higher temps change this around a lot.

Just like 3068 I found this yeast attenuated really well; mine went from 1.067 down to 1.012 even though mash temp was about 68. Hard to be precise though.
My only problem was a mine is noticeably hot. I only pitched one pack into that 1.067 wort so it's probably a bit underpitched, and my mash temp calibration may need tweaking.


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## SJW (20/2/08)

> I tasted it every day during the ferment which was at 22 degrees. After a day or so, there was a lot of bubblegum aroma & flavour, and the gravity was still highish making it taste quite sweet. Liquid bubblegum. I was quite excited. Unfortunately as the gravity dropped all that bubblegum was replaced with cloves.



Interesting about about the bubblegun in the early days. I pitched this last Thursday and fermented until Monday and kegged Monday night. 4 days thats what I call drinking a wheat young!

Steve


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## SJW (6/4/08)

Hey Scott, how did yours end up?




> SJW, your AA is 77%, at 28C I'm surprised you didn't have a Coffs Harbour banana planation relocate to your fermenter.



This one I fermented at 30 deg C just got 2ng in the HAG Brew Comp at Potters Brewery, just goes to show it pays to think outside the square.

Steve


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## sah (7/4/08)

SJW said:


> Hey Scott, how did yours end up?



I was reporting on a beer that had already been made. Have a look at my initial post in the thread.

regards,
Scott


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## Spiesy (6/1/13)

Going to pitch WB-06 in a wit either today or tomorrow... I'm after the banana flavours over the clove flavours. 

Fermentis state fermenting above 23 degrees for those preferring banana, but I've heard from brewing friends (and read in 'Brewing Classic Styles'), to ferment at 17-18 degrees.

I have read through this thread, and think I'll ferment at around 23, surely Fermentis know their products... has anyone got any new anecdotal advice to offer?


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## Nick JD (6/1/13)

Spiesy said:


> Going to pitch WB-06 in a wit either today or tomorrow... I'm after the banana flavours over the clove flavours.
> 
> Fermentis state fermenting above 23 degrees for those preferring banana, but I've heard from brewing friends (and read in 'Brewing Classic Styles'), to ferment at 17-18 degrees.
> 
> I have read through this thread, and think I'll ferment at around 23, surely Fermentis know their products... has anyone got any new anecdotal advice to offer?



Buy WY1214, ferment at 20C. 

I've found trying to get banana out of WB06 is like trying to get pear from US05. Choosing a yeast for your target ester is far easier than trying to coax it out of another.


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## Ross (6/1/13)

Nick JD said:


> Buy WY1214, ferment at 20C.
> 
> I've found trying to get banana out of WB06 is like trying to get pear from US05. Choosing a yeast for your target ester is far easier than trying to coax it out of another.



+2.... Why try & change a clove dominant yeast (wb-06), when there's options that will give you exactly what you are chasing.

cheers Ross

Edit: Do you mean Wit or Wheat? A wit is a spiced Belgian ale & banana is not generally a desired trait.


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## Spiesy (6/1/13)

It's a wit (coriander and orange zest). I guess it's more the bubblegum flavour that I'm after than banana, similar to Hoegaarden.

I have a pack of WB06 here, so I might as well use it - and perhaps they're wrong, but Fermentis claim this yeast to be either clove or banana dominant...


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## hockadays (6/1/13)

Use wyeast forbidden fruit , youll never get a wit out of w06


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## NewtownClown (6/1/13)

hockadays said:


> Use wyeast forbidden fruit , youll never get a wit out of w06



:icon_drool2: Love Verboden Frucht 

But I have found very little of the banana (or bubblegum) he seeks...


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## Spiesy (6/1/13)

okay, thanks for the suggestions lads (albeit some of which are contradictory)


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## Nick JD (6/1/13)

If it's bubblegum you're after (isoamyl acetate IIRC) it's very doable with 1214. 

I get bucketloads of it with a massive pitch (starter that's 15% of the batch size) and a 22-24C ferment. Don't worry about ferment vigour, 1214 doesn't climb out of the fermenter like 3787.

But if you want a failthful hoegaarden - use 3944, as it's their strain. Personally, I prefer 3522 for Wits, as I've had difficulties with sulphur and 3944 in the past. 

If you want some 3522 for free, buy a La Chouffe at Dans - the yeast is alive in the bottles.

I reckon the "WB" in WB06 stands for Wit Bier. It's not a hefe yeast. If it was, they'd have called it HW06. h34r:


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## Spiesy (6/1/13)

I've got WB06... and that's it for the time being. 

Will keep this in mind for the next brew, thanks.


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## Nick JD (6/1/13)

Spiesy said:


> I've got WB06... and that's it for the time being.



Give this a read. It's about conversion of ferulic acid into the clove flavour in hefe. Interesting stuff. For that hoegaarden signature phenolic taste (the "bubblegum" I think you're after - rather than the Wrigleys Juicyfruit I chase) you want to be resting at 43-45C for 30 minutes. When I mash in from my hot water tap I land bang on 45C - and then infuse up to sacc temps, giving it a quick protein rest at 55C on the way through.

The thing to take from this link below is that you want 20C fermentation (well, not 18C like I see so many people ferment their wheaties at).

http://leedsbrew.wordpress.com/2012/05/13/the-acid-test/


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## manticle (6/1/13)

Isoamyl acetate is banana/artificial banana candy.
Ethyl butryrate is bubblegum ester.


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## Nick JD (6/1/13)

manticle said:


> Ethyl butryrate is bubblegum ester.



"It has a fruity odor, similar to pineapple."


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## Spiesy (6/1/13)

Nick JD said:


> Give this a read. It's about conversion of ferulic acid into the clove flavour in hefe. Interesting stuff. For that hoegaarden signature phenolic taste (the "bubblegum" I think you're after - rather than the Wrigleys Juicyfruit I chase) you want to be resting at 43-45C for 30 minutes. When I mash in from my hot water tap I land bang on 45C - and then infuse up to sacc temps, giving it a quick protein rest at 55C on the way through.
> 
> The thing to take from this link below is that you want 20C fermentation (well, not 18C like I see so many people ferment their wheaties at).
> 
> http://leedsbrew.wordpress.com/2012/05/13/the-acid-test/


thanks mate


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## Bada Bing Brewery (6/1/13)

Interesting stuff Nick JD and Manticle. I use 3944 and am fermenting at 18C. No real 'bubblegum' - will fermenting 3944 at 20-21C get me into bubblegum land??
cheers
BBB


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## dr K (6/1/13)

Weizen is a beer where mash temp really has a major impact (using as we do malts that are designed for commercial breweries). It depends what you are looking for, I look for neither phenolics (yuk) or too many esters (yuk), balance as it were, NTL mash temp is the big one. For me, and for what I like I would mash first around 55C for 15-20 minutes then at 63 for 60, then increase for runnings to say 70 (I RDWF) . If I wanted a classic Weizen I would use 3068 0r wlp300 but I prefer the fruitier ester of wlp380, again just me. Oh I also would not ferment higher than 19C buts thats me..you will or would if you wished be surprised at just how good a whaet beer you can produce if you do not chase esters or phenols..dude they are there from the yeast and the best help is a 55Cish rest.
K


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## black_labb (7/1/13)

dr K said:


> Weizen is a beer where mash temp really has a major impact (using as we do malts that are designed for commercial breweries). It depends what you are looking for, I look for neither phenolics (yuk) or too many esters (yuk), balance as it were, NTL mash temp is the big one. For me, and for what I like I would mash first around 55C for 15-20 minutes then at 63 for 60, then increase for runnings to say 70 (I RDWF) . If I wanted a classic Weizen I would use 3068 0r wlp300 but I prefer the fruitier ester of wlp380, again just me. Oh I also would not ferment higher than 19C buts thats me..you will or would if you wished be surprised at just how good a whaet beer you can produce if you do not chase esters or phenols..dude they are there from the yeast and the best help is a 55Cish rest.
> K




what do you mean by NTL mash temps?


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## Nick JD (7/1/13)

dr K said:


> I look for neither phenolics (yuk) or too many esters (yuk)



Use a lager yeast then - and read the title of this thread. <_<


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