# Plum Melomel Or Braggot



## brettprevans (24/8/09)

I'll open this up to the collective for debate/advice/comment/discussion

Ive decided that im going to do a Plum melomel or braggot. Now the kicker is that Im going to make it a funky one and use W9097 Old Ale with Brett. aged plum mead with that old casky horsy characteristics would be a strange but delightful taste

Now depending on whether I make a melomel or a braggot will determine method. If I go melomel then i'll use Airgead's method here
If I go a braggot, then I'll use a braggot method, then once fermented use Airgeads methos of fruit addition (adding after primary just like beer).

So recipes I hear you ask.....

*Melomel*
Honey
Plums
vanilla
cinnamon
Yeast Nutrient
Yeast Energizer (DAP)
1 1/2 tsp Pectic Enzyme
1/8 tsp Potassium Metabisulfite
funk yeasts.

*Braggot*
3.5kg Ale malt
2.2kg plums (pureed and then frozen)
250g Crystal malt 120L
250g Beglian Special 'B' malt
4.5kg Honey
1/2 of a Black cardamom pod
Yeast Nutrient
Yeast Energizer (DAP)
1 1/2 tsp Pectic Enzyme
1/8 tsp Potassium Metabisulfite
OG Est: 1.110
FG Est: 1.005

So ive poached and bastardized some exsisting recipes for a start. 

Issues:
W9097 is only about 12% alc tolerant. so should I pitch the funk first then use a mead yeast or vice versa? (Thx Maple for that point)
Recipes would have to be modified to suit volume.
Frsh or canned plums (not prunes)


So I'll open it up for comment....


----------



## Airgead (25/8/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> I'll open this up to the collective for debate/advice/comment/discussion
> 
> Ive decided that im going to do a Plum melomel or braggot. Now the kicker is that Im going to make it a funky one and use W9097 Old Ale with Brett. aged plum mead with that old casky horsy characteristics would be a strange but delightful taste



Sounds good. I'm not sure what Brett would do to a mel (do they do brett wines?). At least with a braggot you are closer to a beer so you will have a better idea of the flavours you will get.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## brettprevans (25/8/09)

Airgead said:


> Sounds good. I'm not sure what Brett would do to a mel (do they do brett wines?).



nfi if they do or not. not sure if any of the stickies have brett.. probably not. Kirem might be the man with the answer. Paging Kirem

I just figured it should give a similar flavour as with a beer. i guess i'll find out if i make the melomel (which im leaning towards).


edit:
put my googlefu to work.. most results seem to be about avoiding/dealing with Brett taint in wines. I foudn a few places selling 'brett' wines but nothing about the characteristics of it in wine. from what i can tell it should producde roughly the same sorts of characteristics but potententially overpowering the fruit flavour. hmmmmm


----------



## kirem (25/8/09)

Taint caused by _Brettanomyces sp._ or more correctly _Dekkera sp. _is considered a fault in wine.

It is tolerated in many European wines, but most people consider it a fault in new world wines. It is also tolerated in Pinot noir.

Not only does it give unwanted aroma and taste, it can cause a metallic character on the palate and masks fruit aroma and flavour. It also gets worse with bottle age.

You are correct, in winemaking I use techniques and additives to avoid it like the plague.

I did my honours project on Brett/Dekkera in wine whilst I was at Uni, I am also highly sensitive to it and dislike it immensly.

I find it interesting that the brewing community has adopted it as a positive for some beer styles and the wine industry as a negative or tolerated

An interesting area for development with brett character is;
4EG is quite a useful character - smoky, bacony, or spicy
4EP is not so nice - band aids, medicinal
isovaleric acid is like vomit and cheesy
4EC is horsey

each strain will have different ratios of these characters, if a strain was developed to reduce or eliminate isolvaleric acid and 4EP and increase 4EG then it would be a very useful strain to have in the toolbox.

Other yeast strains such as_ Pichia sp._can produce brett like characters as well.

typically 4EP:4EG 8:1

here is a great article on brett in beer;
http://www.brewbasement.com/cellaring-scie...k-in-your-beer/
http://www.brewbasement.com/cellaring-scie...onents-in-beer/


----------



## brettprevans (25/8/09)

I knew you'd have the good Kirem.

So what do you recon about the above proposal. Im taking fom the w9097 description that its Bret strain 4EC


----------



## Stuster (25/8/09)

I think that it would be an interesting strain to try in a braggot. I've used it in a few beers now and I really like it. The leather/horse sweat aroma is fairly strong. No vomit flavours that I could pick up thankfully.  Fairly fruity as well, from the ale yeast I suppose. I can see it working with the honey aroma. No real idea about the mel though so not trying to discourage you from making that instead (as well? :icon_cheers: ).


----------



## kirem (25/8/09)

I am all for experiments. If you want brett characters in you Melomel/Braggot then I say go for it.

Give it a go and judge for youself.

Only advice I have and it is given elsewhere on AHB, is that brett is a very difficult yeast to kill or remove from your equipment. I would use separate equipment or at the very least use a decent sanitiser like peracetic acid (also known as peroxyacetic acid, or PAA).


----------



## brettprevans (25/8/09)

im thinking im going to have to make both! I'll have to find someone thats used w9097 to see what they thought and how they used it.

yeah i hear you in regards to killing the bastards Kirem. Ive got a old bruin funk beer going atm so i think that will become my 'funk fermentor' for all future funk brews. 
A bit of bleech should kill the bastards shoudlnt it? then some PBW follwed by starsan.


----------



## Stuster (25/8/09)

I think it's a good idea to keep the same fermenters for wild beers. I used it just the same as a normal ale yeast. I did find that the first generation had the least amount of brett flavours/aromas. The second and third batch with a standard amount of slurry from the earlier batches were much better IMO.


----------



## Airgead (25/8/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> im thinking im going to have to make both!



That's the true homebrewers spirit... :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## brettprevans (25/8/09)

well getting back to the recipe.... found a recipe that called for 3.5kg of honey and 11.25kg of plums! holy sh*t thats a lot of fruit! esp for a standard 19L batch (5gallons). found abother calling for 6kg honey and 6kg plums in 5 gallons. bloody hell thats a big %alc.

so im thinking

Plum Melomel
5kg plums (pureed and then frozen)
5kg orange blossum honey
2 vanilla beans
1 cinamon stick.
w9097
19L

That puts me over the 1.000+ OG territory 


Braggot
2.5kg Ale malt
4kg plums (pureed and then frozen)
250g Crystal malt 60L
250g Beglian Special 'B' malt
1/2 of a Black cardamom pod
4.0kg Honey
w9097
19L
~OG 1.011

By the way does anyone have an update promash ingredients list? my version doesnt have fruit, vanilla, cinamon or anything.


----------



## Airgead (25/8/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> well getting back to the recipe.... found a recipe that called for 3.5kg of honey and 11.25kg of plums! holy sh*t thats a lot of fruit! esp for a standard 19L batch (5gallons). found abother calling for 6kg honey and 6kg plums in 5 gallons. bloody hell thats a big %alc.



I have found that if you want more than just a little fruit flavour, you need to use a LOT of fruit. My last red mel had 450g of berries in 4.5l of wine and it still tastes more like a rose than a red. That was using 1.5gk honey. I suspect you really need to use honey-fruit almost at 1:1 to get a really strong flavour. I can feel another experiment coming on...

Cheers
Dave


----------



## brettprevans (25/8/09)

good point Dave. but still 11+kg of fruit is heaps. i used 4kg of strawbs in my straw wheat and that ok. and plumbs have more flavour than strawbs.

My recipes should be ok as they are basicly 1:1. yeah start the small batch experiments! i need some demijohns.

Also been searching AHB and found a review thread on W9097 - here. just in case people are looking at this thread in the future and want a 'one stop shop 'reference'.


----------



## brettprevans (4/3/10)

pulling my finger out and will bottle my batch of ouid bruin over the next few days and will then use the funk fermentor for this.

Plum Melomel
5kg plums (pureed and then frozen)
5kg orange blossum honey
2 vanilla beans
1 cinamon stick.
w9097 funk
DAP
nutrient.
19L

should be interesting if any roselare yeast survives and takes up residence alongside the w9097 (old ale).

will keep posted.


----------



## JonnyAnchovy (23/8/10)

any results for this so far? I've been thinking of experimenting with brett and honey for a while now......


----------



## brettprevans (9/9/10)

my starter got destroyed and I havent gotten around to doing it again. Am probably going to wait until there are some good new season plums around rather than relying solely on tinned.

will post results


----------



## brettprevans (31/1/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> well getting back to the recipe.... found a recipe that called for 3.5kg of honey and 11.25kg of plums! holy sh*t thats a lot of fruit! esp for a standard 19L batch (5gallons). found abother calling for 6kg honey and 6kg plums in 5 gallons. bloody hell thats a big %alc.
> 
> so im thinking
> 
> ...


well delayed experiment, but went down on 21 Jan 2012

*plum Braggot*
2.5kg ale
4kg strong blend honey0.25kg medium crystal
0.25kg special b
1kg plums in boil
25g magnum @ 60
25g challanger @ 30
2 cardomom pods @10

W9097 old ale
2kg tinned plums blended added to secondary.
25L
OG 1083 (excl plums) 

1/3 honey added in boil, 2/3 honey added slowly through primary fermentation. 

am yet to add the 2kg of plumbs into secondary cause the last lot of honey is still fermenting away... but it smells fantastic, lovely bit of brett coming through, and that really strong honey and hints of plums. this should be a cracker. will report back when ready for kegging and then in 6 months when it should be ready for drinking


----------



## keezawitch (31/1/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> well delayed experiment, but went down on 21 Jan 2012
> 
> *plum Braggot*
> 2.5kg ale
> ...



don't know what all the ingred are as i am new to this but, I love honey, plums and cardamon so sounds goood to me, hope it turns out excellent for you


----------



## brettprevans (31/1/12)

keezawitch said:


> don't know what all the ingred are as i am new to this but, I love honey, plums and cardamon so sounds goood to me, hope it turns out excellent for you


Ok think half beer feremented honey combined with plums and old ale yeast which thete is a link above to describe the chatacteristics of. 

Ok ingredianta for u wod be 
Ale = 2row
Strong honey = blended cooking honey. Like what they make muslie bars from
Specialb is a type of malt. Dark, buscuity, special belgian sweetness. U can get it in usa.
Magnum and challanger r hops. Part of the beer element.i can outline the full process if u like. Tomorrow though, ive been drinking and am typing on the phone...


----------



## keezawitch (1/2/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> Ok think half beer feremented honey combined with plums and old ale yeast which thete is a link above to describe the chatacteristics of.
> 
> Ok ingredianta for u wod be
> Ale = 2row
> ...



sounds good, i understand a bit better now, let use know how it goes in 6 mths if its good i will give it a go, plum season will start shortly after that and farms around here grow and sell them also i have local honey producers, used their honey in a mead i am doing.


----------



## brettprevans (1/2/12)

keezawitch said:


> sounds good, i understand a bit better now, let use know how it goes in 6 mths if its good i will give it a go, plum season will start shortly after that and farms around here grow and sell them also i have local honey producers, used their honey in a mead i am doing.


yeah sorry for the slightly inebriated description.

Process for making braggot is basically the same as making all grain beer. Mash grains at desired temp (for this it was mashed at 68C/154.4F), sparge etc, then boil hops and other ingredients for indicated time.

Adding honey slowly through ferment is a process adapted from Belgian brewing to help reduce stress on yeast and not create hot fast ferments which can cause fusil alcohol.

Adding plums to secondary (or after primary fermentation has died down) means fruit flavours etc arent scrubbed out by the CO2 production of fermentation. 

If your using fresh fruit you want to puree and freeze it to help break down cell walls so the beer can take up more of the flavours. youll need greater quantities of fresh fruit. also youll want the really rreally overripe stuff for maximum flavour. the type of friut youd want for jams 

This is a really quick overview and there is a heap in the non beer brewing section on using fruit in beers and meads.


----------



## keezawitch (1/2/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> yeah sorry for the slightly inebriated description.
> 
> Process for making braggot is basically the same as making all grain beer. Mash grains at desired temp (for this it was mashed at 68C/154.4F), sparge etc, then boil hops and other ingredients for indicated time.
> 
> ...



no apologizes necessary, a question would it be better to cook the fruit till soft, puree and then freeze, as the cooking process will break down the cellulois further( thinking of baking in slow oven to maximise flavour)


----------



## barls (1/2/12)

dont cook the fruit unless your after the stewed flavour also you have to be careful not to set the pectins.


----------



## keezawitch (1/2/12)

barls said:


> dont cook the fruit unless your after the stewed flavour also you have to be careful not to set the pectins.



thanks, what would happen if pectins set(as in the brew)


----------



## barls (1/2/12)

more like a jam flavour if its set. also you wont get much flavour out of it as it will just clump and fall out.


----------



## keezawitch (2/2/12)

barls said:


> more like a jam flavour if its set. also you wont get much flavour out of it as it will just clump and fall out.



thanks


----------



## brettprevans (29/3/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> well delayed experiment, but went down on 21 Jan 2012
> 
> *plum Braggot*
> 2.5kg ale
> ...


so its been flowly fermenting for a month now. 
tested it straight out of the fermentor the other week. quite dry (more so than i was expecting) with brett characteristics starting to come through. very honey leather type tastes. think i should have mashed a touch warmer and maybe a bit more crystal. but, a lovely hint of plum and definite honey characteristics. 
quite a bit of alc (not hot) which isnt suprising as its bloody young. should even out with age. 
it cant have been too bad as my 'test' was almost a pint of it  

I decided to another another 1.6kg of pureed plums. The brett is slowly working away at it. will test in another few weeks. should be a very interesting beer once it matures


----------



## brettprevans (30/3/12)

gave it another test last night. much the same as last test. the extra plums seems to have been eaten away. 
still not a huge Brett flavour. that may develop with time. 
ill stir it all up again, give it some heat, then I might rack it and add another 1.6kg of plums.


----------



## brettprevans (19/4/12)

brett is slowly working at the braggot

last lot of plums added more colour and plumyness. but im not sure i I want more of not. took a couple pics last night (shit lights at my joint, doesnt lend itself to taking good pics). 





really nice colour, clear and tastes good uncarbed. leathery, little bit of horse but not much. subtle brett adding to he leather, assertive honey notes (not honey sweetness).
so I think into the keg it goes to sit for a few months. If I want to cadd more plums into the keg I can later on.


----------



## brettprevans (24/2/13)

10months since the last sampling. 
OMFG! The complexity of this. One minute its the brett dominating the next its the leathery honey then it chbages again. Slightly drier than last timw so the brett has been working away at it which is good as its given brett something to fuel its growth for complexity. Hints of plum still there. 

A great experiment. Will be doing it again. Glad ive got 13 bottles left.


----------

