# Biab Barleywine



## primusbrew (13/6/12)

Hi brewers,

A brewing mate of mining is moving overseas indefinitely in a few weeks and we have decided to make a beer that will age well so that we can drink it when we catch up over the next few years. I was thinking that a Barleywine would be a good option.

After doing a bit of research in Radical Brewing, How to Brew and this link I have put together a recipe. I am an AG BIAB brewer and I was hoping to get some feedback from people who have made a similar beer before. This is my first go at a "big" beer.

_English Barleywine 
Type: All Grain Date: 12/06/2012 
Batch Size (fermenter): 18.00 l Brewer: 
Boil Size: 22.59 l Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: My Equipment 
End of Boil Volume 19.75 l Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 % 
Final Bottling Volume: 17.00 l Est Mash Efficiency 74.2 % 

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
6.50 kg Maris Otter (Crisp) (7.9 EBC) Grain 1 76.5 % 
1.00 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EBC) Grain 2 11.8 % 
0.50 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 3 5.9 % 
1.0 pkg London Ale Yeast (Wyeast Labs #1028) [124.21 ml] Yeast 8 - 
60.00 g Target [11.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 5 66.0 IBUs 
40.00 g Target [11.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 24.9 IBUs 
40.00 g Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 3.7 IBUs 
0.50 kg Candi Sugar, Dark (541.8 EBC) Sugar 4 5.9 % 

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.106 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 12.3 %
Bitterness: 94.6 IBUs Calories: 427.1 kcal/l 
Est Color: 63.6 EBC 
_

I am not too sure what to do with the hops for this type of beer. As the plan is to drink this over 3-5 years (actually I'll probably drink a few young as well) is there any point putting in late addition hops? I like the idea of the dark candi sugar but have never used it before and am not sure how much to use or whether to go for the Dark 1 or the Dark 2.

With the mash I plan to do a standard BIAB and then reduce the volume to 18L through an extended boil. Has anyone experienced issues in the mash with such a high gravity?

Any advice would be great. 

Cheers


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## chunckious (13/6/12)

Using a 3:1 water to grain mash ratio I have never been able to get my OG above 1.078.
From my experience BIAB isnt suited to high gravity styles.


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## Nick JD (13/6/12)

Not sure 1028 can do 12%.


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## primusbrew (13/6/12)

Hey Nick I think you're right. The Wyeast website says it can go up to 11%. It might be a good idea to bring down the OG into this range. 

Chunkious, any idea how high an OG can be reached through BIAB? I was thinking that an extended boil and the addition of candi syrup could get the OG up.


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## DarkFaerytale (13/6/12)

malt extract can be your friend


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## Markbeer (13/6/12)

To get a high gravity using BIAB, do 1/2 your grain bill, drain the bag, measure your gravity.

Then repeat the process with new grains. Your efficiency drops using this method but this is the only way I have gotten a high gravity. The efficiency for me drops to below 60%.


Then you may have to add some DME or LME to get it up to the level you want.





primusbrew said:


> Chunkious, any idea how high an OG can be reached through BIAB? I was thinking that an extended boil and the addition of candi syrup could get the OG up.


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## Bribie G (13/6/12)

RdeVjun and I did a Russian Imperial Stout last year which yielded 1095 and not too bad efficiency.

However we did a fair batch sparge then lautered that in a bucket with a false bottom, poured it all back into the urn in two stages and did a two and a half hour boil with urn plus an immersion heater. They had to kick in a separate generator at Callide B.

brewday was from 2pm to Midnight and boy were we pissed by the end of it :lol:

edit: We were going for a full 21L cube so the urn was really beyond its limits. For anything around 12% I'd be looking at LDME for sure, or go for a 15L cube instead.

Also note the hops, but that was for a RIS. Actually it's still in the cube (shock horror) so still trying to work out what yeast. 

*Russian Imperial Stout *


*Recipe Specs*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 22.0
Total Grain (kg): 9.475
Total Hops (g): 130.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.095 (P): 22.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.022 (P): 5.6
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 9.55 %
Colour (SRM): 54.7 (EBC): 107.8
Bitterness (IBU): 84.6 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

*Grain Bill*
----------------
6.500 kg Pale Malt Golden Promise (68.6%)
0.600 kg Pale Malt Oakey (6.33%)
0.500 kg Choc Chit JW (5.28%)
0.400 kg Amber Malt (4.22%)
0.375 kg Brown Sugar, Light (3.96%)
0.300 kg Black Roasted Barley (3.17%)
0.300 kg Carafa II malt (3.17%)
0.300 kg Flaked Barley (3.17%)
0.200 kg Crystal Heritage Simpsons (2.11%)

*Hop Bill*
----------------
40.0 g Magnum Pellet (12.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.8 g/L)
30.0 g Magnum Pellet (12.5% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (1.4 g/L)
30.0 g Cascade Pellet (7.8% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (1.4 g/L)
30.0 g Cascade Pellet (7.8% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (1.4 g/L)

*Misc Bill*
----------------

Single step Infusion at 66C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20C with Wyeast 1056 - American Ale


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


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## black_labb (13/6/12)

I'd do a big sparge, even in a fermentoy if you don't have a big enough pot. You could use the runnings to brew a smaller beer.


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## Aces High (13/6/12)

Shouldn't a larger grain bill & longer boil get you where you need to go. Using BIAB i can get to about 1.070 by using a larger grain bill. After that it seem more grain just gives you dimishing returns. 

Then a 2 or 3 hour boil maybe to get to desired OG. Obviously you need a larger pot to handle this.


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## Mayor of Mildura (13/6/12)

Nick JD said:


> Not sure 1028 can do 12%.


You might get close. I've used it in a 10% beer and then bottle conditioned with this yeast. no problem. Make a smaller beer first and then pitch onto the cake with the big beer. 



Markbeer said:


> To get a high gravity using BIAB, do 1/2 your grain bill, drain the bag, measure your gravity.
> 
> Then repeat the process with new grains. Your efficiency drops using this method but this is the only way I have gotten a high gravity. The efficiency for me drops to below 60%.
> 
> ...


This works but takes a long time. 



black_labb said:


> I'd do a big sparge, even in a fermentoy if you don't have a big enough pot. You could use the runnings to brew a smaller beer.


this is what i do. mash with a conventional liquor to grist ratio drain the runnings to another pot and then sparge. efficiency is still low but not as time consuming as the reiterated mash method. 

If you're happy with a lower volume go the standard mash and extended boil. 

I'm not so sure about extract in these really big beers. You want them to ferment right out so that they are more drinkable and not so cloying. I'd be more inclined to add sugar to up the OG.

I'd say go for the late hop addition. It will add to the beer even with extended conditioning. 

I love brewing bigger beers they might take a little longer to make and condition but the end result is worth it.


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## hyjak71 (13/6/12)

Recently did a RIS BIAB and managed 1.070 with a big batch sparge, 90min boil and I hit my target. 
Must say though that next time I do a big beer I think I'll modify my recipe to allow the use of extract or similar, 10.5kg of grain was a bit difficult to manage with no pulley to bring it out of the pot.


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## primusbrew (13/6/12)

Hi all, I really appreciate the comments. So by the sounds of it, I can aim for a pre boil gravity of 1.070, at say a 60% mash efficiency, and then give it a 120min boil to reduce the volume and up the OG to about 1.090.

In this article  it mentions adding some of the fermentables during primary fermentation. I was thinking that I could add the candi syrup and extra malt extract to the primary if the gravity doesn't get high enough. I am pretty keen to avoid the use ofextract if possible though.

Just out of interest, does anyone know why the gravity in a mash cannot procede past a certain level?

Mayor I'm a fan of bigger beers too. Making one has always been a little intimidating but I'm pretty excited about it.


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## robbo5253 (13/6/12)

If looking to add during the ferment, why not do a simple mash and then boil until you hit the gravity you want then add it in?

Cheers

Robbo


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## edschache (13/6/12)

Has anyone had success in a 40L urn doing a big beer into a 10L cube? I've got a couple of 10L cubes and have been meaning to give it a crack and this conversation has just reminded me.

Cheers,

Ed


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## primusbrew (13/6/12)

Hey Robbo I like that idea. It'll mean a little extra work but solves a few problems.
This is going to be a complicated brew. Should be fun though...


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## hoppy2B (13/6/12)

I just been considering exactly this sort of thing recently. I'm wanting to make a proper IPA.
If I boil about 10 litres in a 15 litre K-Mart pot I can get it down to about 5 litres in 90 minutes easy. I have 2 pots I can boil simultaneously. 
As long as you've got the burners or can do 1 on the kitchen stove you might be able to do something similar. 
The other option of a longer boil should give better hop isomerisation as mentioned by some commercial brewers.


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## manticle (13/6/12)

120 minutes is about the maximum time you want to boil hops before the bittering effect starts becoming lost due to changes in the compounds.

That's from what I've read, not tried so might be interesting to do a small batch one day and test a side by side.


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## hoppy2B (13/6/12)

manticle said:


> 120 minutes is about the maximum time you want to boil hops before the bittering effect starts becoming lost due to changes in the compounds.
> 
> That's from what I've read, not tried so might be interesting to do a small batch one day and test a side by side.



Yeah that sounds pretty right. Even beyond 90 minutes is probably not adding much.
I was reading Encyclopaedia Britannica a couple of days ago and it states, " The wort is next boiled with hops for up to 2 1/2 hours in large kettles." 
It kind of just stuck in my head.


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## Nick JD (13/6/12)

I always make big beers and dilute them. If I'm making 17L of 1.055, my pre-dilution wort is 1.080

So if a 19L pot can make 10L of 1.095 doing nothing fancy ... no excuses for not being able to make 20L of it without adjuncts.

One of the advantages of learning some high gravity skills - normal gravity brewing is a cakewalk.


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## edschache (14/6/12)

hoppy2B said:


> I was reading Encyclopaedia Britannica a couple of days ago and it states, " The wort is next boiled with hops for up to 2 1/2 hours in large kettles."



you mean like this one?


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## Malted (14/6/12)

hoppy2B said:


> Yeah that sounds pretty right. Even beyond 90 minutes is probably not adding much.



I believe you are correct but Manticle was talking about something completely different. He suggested that a boil longer than 2 hours _might _degrade the bittering compounds that are already in the wort, he said nothing about adding bittering compounds in the period after 2 hours boiling. Indeed it is an interesting point and would make a good side by side comparison.


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## primusbrew (14/6/12)

manticle said:


> 120 minutes is about the maximum time you want to boil hops before the bittering effect starts becoming lost due to changes in the compounds.
> 
> That's from what I've read, not tried so might be interesting to do a small batch one day and test a side by side.



It should be fine to run the boil for 30 minutes before the first hop addition and then go for another 90 minutes, right?


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## unco_tomato (14/6/12)

I've started experimenting with dark and light honey to boost the OG of my bigger BIAB beers, and I think it could work well in a Barleywine.

I now prefer using honey to simple sugars, as I feel it can add more depth of flavor, and also allows you to balance colour better than dark sugars can - give it a go :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD (14/6/12)

I'd mash high and pour a bucketload of candi syrup(s) in it, but that's just me. It's the most delicious way to add alcohol ever. 

All malt big beers are just too "thick" for my liking. I reckon the Monks got it right with all the sugaz they use.


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## beerdrinkingbob (15/6/12)

Thanks for the idea OP, but that's where the fun stopped......

Decided to do an American barley wine to use up some malt and see how BIAB would stand up. Brew day was going along OK until i hoisted the bag and about 4 kg of grain poured out the side and back into the kettle, didn't tie in section of the bag :angry: After a short period of running around like the bloke in dads army, Don't panic, Don't panic!!! \permission was granted!!i came up with a plan to take a simple 1V and turn it into 5...... what a bloody mess and took about 5 hours.

Long story short, recovered from the mayhem to achieve 60% of 1.105 into the fermenter, no sparge etc, just a 2 hour boil, so all in all turned out ok.


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## Bribie G (15/6/12)

Why isn't that maid wearing a little white cap thing and pink stilettos?


OK thread officially derailed.


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## manticle (15/6/12)

primusbrew said:


> It should be fine to run the boil for 30 minutes before the first hop addition and then go for another 90 minutes, right?



Absolutely. Run the boil for 200 minutes before the first hop addition if you need to - you will get boil-off/evap, darkening of wort, concentration, maillard reactions and protein and tannin precipiation, SMM conversion and DMS reduction etc.

It's just the hops you don't want to overboil - before adding you can go for broke.

Please note: My understanding of this comes from reading the Classic Beer Styles book 'Barleywine' as I've never personally boiled hops for 120+ minutes to verify what they suggest.


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## primusbrew (18/10/12)

I ended up brewing this a few months ago and haven't gotten around to posting yet. Overall I was pretty happy with it and can confirm that these high gravity beers can be brewed via BIAB. However there is significant increase in time and expense.

Grain Bill.
Amt	Name	Type	#	%/IBU
7.00 kg	Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White)
1.50 kg	Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) 
0.50 kg	Crystal (Joe White) 
0.20 kg	DME Golden Light (Briess) 
0.25 kg	Candi Sugar, Dark 

I mashed at about 64C for 90 mins. Lifted that bag out and let it drain into the kettle as I brought the remainder up to the boil. I estimated that I would hav around 25 litres at the start of the boil with the aim of reducing it to 20. I let the boil run for 60mins before the first hop addition and then for 60mins after that.

I was aiming for 20 litres into the no-chill cube and think I went just under that. So all was fine on brewday and I calculated a SG of 1.097 which should have given me a mash efficiency of 65% which is more than I expected, especially considering that I lost some wort to the ground when draining the bag. However when I cam back the next day to put the wort in the fermenter with the yeast I noticed an obscene amount of trub in the cube. I ended up with around 16 litres in the fermenter which knocked my efficiency down to about 55%! 

Fermentation went along smoothly except for one point where the temp rose just above 20C. This was only brief, I think it was caused by an extremely vigorous fermentation.

ABV is just over 11%. I hope that the yeast can cope and that the bottle conditioning will work. I used Wyeast 1028 and it says that it can tolerate around 12% ABV so it will be interesting to see how it goes.

It is still in the bottles now and I haven't had a taste. Will post again when I do.


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## Aydos (19/10/12)

Trub won't affect your mash efficiency, only your into-fermenter efficiency.


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## big78sam (7/11/14)

[SIZE=10pt]Digging up an older thread here rather than starting another. FYI, I am a BIAB brewer. I brew primarily in a 40L Birko urn but also have a couple of the trusty 19L BigW pots. I’m looking to brew 20L of Barleywine.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]I’ve done a fair bit of research on BIAB Barleywine and have come across a couple of different approaches that would work with my setup. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Method 1 - the double mash, i.e. mash 5kg of grain in the urn. Remove the grain, maybe a small sparge in a BIG W pot, then mash the second batch (4 - 5kg) in the wort left in the urn. Based on this method, I’d sparge the second mash in particular and aim for a bit more of a preboil volume and go for a 2hr boil in the urn.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Method 2 – Concurrent mashes in 2 vessels, i.e. mash 6kg in the urn and another 3-4 kgs in a Big W pot with a second bag. Then do a concurrent 2 hour boil in 2 vessels (the urn and a big W pot). I’d have to do the math on this but by doing a double mash I’d end up with a much larger pre boil volume. This would be offset by the fact that I’m boiling 2 vessels so have a much higher boil off rate. The aim for both would be to have around 20L in total going into the fermentor. I wouldn’t be doing full volume mashes in both vessels or I’d have to boil for too long to end up with 10L of wort post boil in each vessel. I’d split the hops into the 2 vessels.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]I’m sure both are feasible but does anyone have any suggestions on which method would be best?[/SIZE]


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## big78sam (7/11/14)

bump for evening crowd


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## Online Brewing Supplies (7/11/14)

Historically they would just keep the first third of the runnings (best extract point) for a Barley wine and the rest would be kept for a small beer.
You need to do your brew calcs but it aint hard, and you end up with two beers. Some call it party gyle I just say make a big beer and a small one.
Sorry, my not reading properly!
Ok second thoughts its BIAB, do a big boil off, like 50%, still do the calcs, long boils suit these beers.


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## IsonAd (14/11/14)

Big 78 Sam. How'd you go with this. I'm planning a Biab barley wine soon (after I brew a low grav pale ale to get a nice yeast cake) got a good recipe?


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## hwall95 (30/11/14)

I'm thinking about having a crack at one early next year for next years Christmas. So far the plan is to mash 5kg at 2.5L/kg at 67, mash out and then sparge at 5L, then repeat for another 5kg. Combine mash and boil for based upon pre-boil gravity to attain around 10-11% and then sparge the rest of the grains in attempt to get another beer out of the left over sugars. This is based on 60% mash eff. which may be an over-estimate. I'll keep researching to come up with a decent grain bill and hop schedule.


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## acarey (30/11/14)

I'm a birko guy and when I'm doing big beers (10kg or so) I do the double mash method. Efficiency for me comes down to about 65 - 70 but I get good beer at the end anyway.

2c


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## pajs (30/11/14)

hwall95 said:


> I'm thinking about having a crack at one early next year for next years Christmas. So far the plan is to mash 5kg at 2.5L/kg at 67, mash out and then sparge at 5L, then repeat for another 5kg. Combine mash and boil for based upon pre-boil gravity to attain around 10-11% and then sparge the rest of the grains in attempt to get another beer out of the left over sugars. This is based on 60% mash eff. which may be an over-estimate. I'll keep researching to come up with a decent grain bill and hop schedule.


For my one and only English Barley Wine BIAB to date, I went with a smaller final volume (targetting 9 litres, ended up with 8 1/2 after racking to a demijohn). Just under 5kg of grain. 90 minute boil, hopped from 60 minutes to about 70 IBU. Was just manageable as a stovetop brew for me. Did this back in winter, with Nottingham as the yeast. Seems to be progressing well in bottle. Rasin & melanoidin flavours are there. I plan to crack into them next winter.


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