# SOLVED - Brand new Buffalo urn won't reach rolling boil



## hathro (6/3/14)

Hi all,

So I purchased a 40L Buffalo hot water urn and I'm currently doing a test run with water. It's been going on full whack for about 2 hours and still hasn't reached a rolling boil. It reached a rolling boil with the lid on but not with the lid off.

The ambient temp is around 26ºC and the water temp in the urn won't go above 92.5ºC .

I'm not sure what to do here. I'm thinking I'm either doing it wrong, or I need to insulate the urn. Pics below and any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Florian (7/3/14)

Not sure about Buffalo, but generally urns aren't designed to keep a rolling boil, they're more a hot water dispenser for tea etc. 

In saying that, there's usually is some sort of safety switch thing (boil dry protection or whatever it's called that can or can't be overridden (by a qualified sparky).

Never owned an urn and never will, plus I'm sort of drunk so feel free to ignore my advice.


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## Econwatson (7/3/14)

The age old trick on the forums is to float a cake tin in the urn, but I am not sure if that will help you gain that much temperature.

I think us Brits use these urns quite a lot. Not sure if there is a boil-dry cutoff trick equivalent for them like us Crown Urn users have, maybe have a google for something to that effect? I see it does have the boil-dry cutoff feature so assuming somebody has figured out a way to remove it. I am assuming all warranty will be void if you remove the boil-dry cutoff feature so I would just try and return it personally.

If you read the manual, it says to turn the unit off if it starts to boil which implies to me that it is not designed for boiling, not sure if the Crown Urns have the same instructions in the manual but certainly something to think about.


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## technobabble66 (7/3/14)

As Florian said, the urns aren't designed to maintain a rolling boil. The fact that it got to a boil with the lid on proves it works, it just loses heat too quickly with it off (same as Crowns & birkos). 
So to keep the heat in to get it past 100*C, you'll need to insulate the side of it, & I find I need to also float a small cake tin on top, as Econowatson said above (I have a birko with a wide diameter). 

Let us know how you go!


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## Rambo (7/3/14)

I have the same urn and haven't had problems getting a good boil. Seems from the photo that you don't have much water in the urn, maybe that's making it cut out early.


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## Jamo (7/3/14)

I have one of these and have done 4 or 5 brews in it. I can get a rolling boil but I need to have the temp set as high as it will go (says 110). The manual with mine says that if you set a temp at or above 100 it will not cut out, but mine will unless it's turned right up. I have had it cut out during the boil a couple of times when I needed to scrape at the element to clean it a bit to get it going again. Each time it only took a few minutes to go again. I haven't made any mods to mine at all. I'm no sparky so I don't know if it makes any difference, but I need to use an extension lead with mine and the one I use is a heavy duty one. I don't use a cake tin or insulation and I leave the lid on while bringing it up to the boil, but then am able to maintain a rolling boil with the lid off.
If none if this helps you may need to look at replacing it.


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## mxd (7/3/14)

as mentioned above I would also do a bit (quite a bit) of insulation


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## Ross (7/3/14)

It's sold as a water boiler & should certainly reach a boil easily with the lid off. If it's maxing out at 92C with the lid off - return for a replacement, it's faulty.



Ross


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## Bribie G (7/3/14)

I know from the UK forums that Buffalo is the Crown / Birko of Pomland and should give a rolling boil. So as Ross says it looks like it's defective, unfortunately. And to the non urn owners who maintain that urns don't do a rolling boil then I must be doing something wrong with mine over the last few hundred brews 

Apart from cake tin, another good trick for a more powerful boil is to peg a $7 grain bag a-la-Craftbrewer round the top of the urn to make a swimming pool for the hops (works well with pellets, not just flowers). This not only traps the heat to give a better boil, but as the steam is forced up through the material it give the hops a good boil as well.




CraftBrewer's latest grain bag (the one on the right) is a more robust design with an elasticated top, snaps over the urn perfectly. Out of stock ATM however :angry:


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## hathro (7/3/14)

Thanks for all the information guys.

From what I could see, the unit didn't cut out - by this I assume it either turns off or it stops producing heat. There were bubbles constantly coming from the element which indicated it didn't cut out.

I also had this connected to an extension cable. I had 20+L in there. This time I'll connect it directly to the power outlet and trial with 30+L of water. If this fails, I'll return it as Ross suggested. I might also wrap it in one of these for insulation and throw in a cake tin, just out of curiosity to see how much effect it has.

Will report back on the weekend.


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## sp0rk (7/3/14)

Bribie G said:


> grain bags.jpg


I thought you'd just messed your grundies on the left in that pic...


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## Ross (7/3/14)

hathro said:


> Thanks for all the information guys.
> 
> From what I could see, the unit didn't cut out - by this I assume it either turns off or it stops producing heat. There were bubbles constantly coming from the element which indicated it didn't cut out.
> 
> ...


Hathro - You shouldn't get a drop in performance like you experienced unless you used an incredibly long extension lead. If it doesn't boil properly plugged straight into the socket, don't mess around with cake tins & insulation, you need a new or repaired urn.
All urns should give a good boil with just the lid off.


Cheers Ross


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## superstock (7/3/14)

Bribie G said:


> grain bags.jpg


Rather not know what you did in the one on the left,but the one on the right looks like my grandmother's bloomers.


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## hathro (7/3/14)

Ross said:


> Hathro - You shouldn't get a drop in performance like you experienced unless you used an incredibly long extension lead. If it doesn't boil properly plugged straight into the socket, don't mess around with cake tins & insulation, you need a new or repaired urn.
> All urns should give a good boil with just the lid off.


Thanks Ross. The lead was 5m+. Will try without the extension and if it's still not working, I'll return it.


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## joshF (7/3/14)

Should've bought a jeep 

Sorry couldn't resist. I think some of these temperature sensors and thermostats are very finicky. Think of a car travelling 60km/h compared to the same car travelling 110km/h. If you compare the cars speedo to the km/h on a tomtom/navman etc you'll find that at 60km/h the accuracy reading is very similar but the faster you go, the margin of error changes and the difference becomes much greater.

I know it's hard with the temperature dial/knob without actual temperature increments but maybe checking with a digital thermometer or something at say 40 degrees, 60 degrees and then 90 etc would show you how much the temperature varies. It sounds like when your urn is thinking its at the absolute max ie +100 for boiling temps, it actually isnt.

Since we mainly have the Birko and Crowns here in aus, Maybe check some pommy forums etc to see if there's any override or tricks since i assume there'd be alot more people with Buffalo urns and hence a higher probability of someone with a similar problem as yours? Or worse case scenario, it's faulty 

Good luck with it mate


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## hathro (7/3/14)

Tried it with ~35L while plugged directly into the power outlet and the same thing happened; 92.5ºC.

Here's a video View My Video

I'm going to return it as faulty and get another.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (7/3/14)

Thermo obviously crapped out.
Some are adjustable with a screw driver, just sets the cut off point.
If unsure dont F with it.
Nev


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## wynnum1 (8/3/14)

Is the thermostat a removable fixable component and not a throw away if breaks.


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## hathro (8/3/14)

I figure my options are as follows:


Return the urn for a replacement
Return the urn for a Birko replacement + cash adjustment
Refund the urn and buy a 50L stainless steel pot and fit an electrical heating element.
I'm liking option 3 so far. Greatest flexibility.


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## hathro (8/3/14)

After looking at the urn this morning in disgust, I got mad and made this. Job done.


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## bundy (8/3/14)

hathro said:


> Hi all,
> 
> So I purchased a 40L Buffalo hot water urn and I'm currently doing a test run with water. It's been going on full whack for about 2 hours and still hasn't reached a rolling boil. It reached a rolling boil with the lid on but not with the lid off.
> 
> ...


I just pulled mine out after reading this to make sure it was ok. I started with hot water from the tap so already around 60 degrees.

Filled to about 25 litres and let it go. Took a good hour to get up to temp, maybe more. Once boiling it is not a strong boil with lid off, but it is a boil non the less. 

You mention yours boils with lid on so indicates it is not cutting out with the thermostat. 

Is it that you expect a more robust boil? 

Also with your thermometer are you sure it is accurate? Maybe put it in your boiling kettle and compare the temp. Mine for example read 98 degrees. So was out a bit too.

If you think it is cutting out early their are mods around to replace the thermal cutout, or bypass the boil dry. Just google buffalo thermal cutout and will give you plenty of hits of how to do it.

Also for insulation I used air-cell insulation, it's what they use in wall cavities to insulate houses. Silver foil with a foam in between. Just warped it around a couple of times and certainly helps a lot. The yoga matts you linked to have been reported to melt and stick to the walls of the urn. Try get some air cell from a local house building site, off cut is all you need and works well, just ask the brickies doing the job if they have some left over. They will normally help out.

http://www.kingspaninsulation.com.au/Products/Kingspan-Air-Cell/AIR-CELL-Permicav/Overview.aspx


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## wide eyed and legless (8/3/14)

If I get you mad will you make me one.


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## hathro (9/3/14)

bundy said:


> Is it that you expect a more robust boil?
> 
> Also with your thermometer are you sure it is accurate? Maybe put it in your boiling kettle and compare the temp. Mine for example read 98 degrees. So was out a bit too.
> 
> ...


Yes, I expected a robust boil based on all the videos on the net.

Boiled the kettle, when it switched off I tested the temp with two thermometers. 97ºC on both.

I'm convinced it's not a case of cutting out, it just won't get up to a rolling boil with the lid off. Lid on, no worries.


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## technobabble66 (10/3/14)

In that case everything works & it's a simple matter of losing too much heat (once the lid's off). Get some insulation around that baby. Problem solved. RDWHAHB! :lol:


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## hathro (10/3/14)

Technobabble66, I'm coming to that conclusion. The walls are thin and there is a large surface area on top for heat to dissipate. There are quite a few houses going up in my estate. I'll ask nicely for some insulation. Will report back.


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## hathro (10/3/14)

So I've added some insulation and it's now getting up to 96ºC. It still isn't a rolling boil by any stretch of the imagination. A small 1mm high bubble forms and lots of steam comes off - video below. It's annoying as the boil is so voilent when you first take the lid off.

Buffalo urn "rolling boil" 2


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## pk.sax (10/3/14)

Why don't you cut a piece of foil and just float that on the surface and leave the lid off.


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## technobabble66 (10/3/14)

+1 practicalfool.
Disappointing the insulation didn't get you up to a simmer at least - i thought the tall skinny design of the Booffalo might've meant the side insulation would be enough.
Anyways, make an aluminium foil boat, use a cake tin (my preference) or use a disposable aluminium foil tray. Either way - float it on the top as you boil. It diminishes heat loss enough to facilitate the rolling boil, while still allowing the escape of gases required to minimise/negate DMS in the finished beer.
Give it a crack & report back!


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## hathro (10/3/14)

Buffalo urn - rolling boil, great success! - Finally! Hah, you guys are great.

Will the foil have any affect on my brew?


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## technobabble66 (11/3/14)

Erm... maybe make the foil a little smaller :lol:

I use 1-2 little square cake tins, each ~10cm across. (my Birko's ~35-40cm diameter).
You want to have enough coverage to allow the rolling boil, but leave as much space free to allow the best escape of the gases/vapour.
Yours will probably still work, but i'm not sure if the gases/vapour will escape enough to let the boil do its job properly.

The Aluminium foil should be fine in the boil & not negatively affect the brew. Plenty of people use Aluminium pots for brewing with no problems.

But Congrats on getting the rolling boil !! 
*NOW* you can RDWHAHB!


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## hathro (11/3/14)

Yeah, I started off with a large piece and recorded it. Made it smaller and it still worked but didn't bother recording it. Was all about reducing the exposed surface area on top rather than the side insulation. The side insulation will help with heat retention during the mash.


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## BreadMurderer (11/3/14)

I'm just waiting for my mash to finish in my 40L Buffalo urn so I'll report back here on how my boil goes. So bloody excited to finally be getting my first BIAB on here in Oz. :beerbang:


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## Ross (11/3/14)

Hathro,

You should not have to be doing that to get a boil. I have no personal knowledge of the buffalo boiler, but some have already posted they get a good boil with this kit, I'd be contacting who you purchased it from for a remedy/replacement.


cheers ross


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## hathro (11/3/14)

Hi Ross,

I agree. It's a poor solution if I have to do all of that just to get a boil. Called the company and going through the warranty/replacement process now. I have my other kettle to use on gas which is working fine for now.

I'm interested to see how BreadMurderer goes.


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## BreadMurderer (11/3/14)

Right I'm done.

I got a nice strong boil WITH the lid on but it reduced to a tame rolling boil once the lid was removed. I then deployed HMS Tinfoil and this sorted her out almost instantly.

I'm happy with it, probably didn't need the tinfoil but I wanted it going a bit more vigorous.


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## hathro (11/3/14)

BreadMurderer, was your rolling boil as poor as mine (Buffalo urn "rolling boil" 2) before you deployed your ship?


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## BreadMurderer (11/3/14)

I'd say it was a bit more active than that and I did it outside with no insulation.


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## hathro (13/5/14)

So an update on this. I've done three mods to the urn.

1. Added some insulation between the bottom of the urn and the temperature probe
2. Replaced the cutout sensor to a 130ºC one
3. Replaced the thermal fuse with a 170ºC one

All up this costs about $5 and 20 minutes to complete. Here is the result:

VIDEO - Buffalo urn rolling boil


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## Rambo (13/5/14)

hathro said:


> So an update on this. I've done three mods to the urn.
> 
> 1. Added some insulation between the bottom of the urn and the temperature probe
> 2. Replaced the cutout sensor to a 130ºC one
> ...


Glad you got it sorted Hathro. Although I'm happy with my boil at this stage, some discussions on another thread (the pistol pat BIAB podcast) has got me thinking I should be looking for a more vigorous boil. If you have time could you post where you got your parts from and what is require for this mod? Cheers


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## hathro (13/5/14)

All this info came from bundy so big cheers to him!

1. Added some insulation between the bottom of the urn and the temperature probe







After.






2. Replaced the cutout sensor to a 130ºC one

Instructions: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=42675

Part required: [SIZE=11pt]http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/350769820823?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649[/SIZE]

3. Replaced the thermal fuse with a 170ºC one

Instructions: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=42675&sid=be5677f4d05a101b4ad6d239831cfbbd&start=15

Part required: [SIZE=11pt]http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/300604641346?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649[/SIZE]

The eBay links might be dead, can't check them at work. Will update later.


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## Rambo (13/5/14)

Cheers mate, appreciate it.


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## bundy (13/5/14)

Rambo said:


> Glad you got it sorted Hathro. Although I'm happy with my boil at this stage, some discussions on another thread (the pistol pat BIAB podcast) has got me thinking I should be looking for a more vigorous boil. If you have time could you post where you got your parts from and what is require for this mod? Cheers


Rambo just on this. I have spoken to Pat specifically re the boil and vigour on electric urns. Seems To not matter too much, although you don't want cutouts if you can, which those mods Hathro pointed out fix.

The urns we have though are all 2400 watt elements, so compared to a propane burner will never have the same input of energy into your kettle. The upside is we are pretty well regulated on heat input, whereas wind and gas valve settings will affect boil off or evaporation rates from brew to brew in propane. So we may expect more consistency of boil or evaporation as compared to propane but less evaporation.

Anyway I use Pat's Biabicus, and have found my hourly evaporation rate is about 3.6litres per hour, where his software allows a default of around 5.6 or so. After a chat seems for urns at least to adjust your expected evaporation rate down as we will never achieve what a gas burner can.

Bottom line though is final outcome and quality of brew shouldn't be affected be it electric or propane heat source.


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## hathro (12/6/14)

40L Buffalo urns are <$200 new here: http://www.nisbets.com.au/Buffalo-Manual-Fill-Water-Boiler-40Ltr/CC193-A/ProductDetail.raction

Use the code WELCOME10 to get $10 off


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## DJ_L3ThAL (12/6/14)

How long does it take to get from 15-20C water to strike temp ~66C in these?
Also how long to a rolling boil?


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## hathro (12/6/14)

~25 mins each. Depends on ambient temp.


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## Jamo (12/6/14)

I've got one of these and it's more like around 40 minutes for me.
I'm down Geelong way so a bit cooler than Perth no doubt.


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## DU99 (12/6/14)

:icon_offtopic: wouldn't these mod's void the warranty


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## anthonyUK (12/6/14)

Making wort in them probably voids the warranty. They are not guaranteed to boil continuously but with a little help they do


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## Rambo (13/6/14)

Why would making wort in them void warranty? They are sold as a water boiler, we are just boiling sugary water.


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## hathro (13/6/14)

DU99 said:


> :icon_offtopic: wouldn't these mod's void the warranty


http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78765-solved-brand-new-buffalo-urn-wont-reach-rolling-boil/page-2#entry1173078

If you need to make a warranty claim, mods 1 and 2 can be reversed (just screw in items).

Mod 3 can also be done but it depends on your ability to make it look "factory".

There are that few working parts in this urn that I doubt you would ever need to make a warranty claim - it would be something you could fix with the above mods.


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## Hairy Maclary (26/6/14)

hathro said:


> All this info came from bundy so big cheers to him!
> 
> 1. Added some insulation between the bottom of the urn and the temperature probe
> 
> ...


Is that just Silicone insulating the temperature probe?


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## hathro (27/6/14)

Lcdownes said:


> Is that just Silicone insulating the temperature probe?


Sure is.


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## hathro (12/8/14)

These urns are now $165 ex tax and shipping.

Use the code WELCOME to get further $10 off.


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## anthonyUK (12/8/14)

Wow. That is £85. They are £150 here at the moment.


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## meathead (1/10/14)

To combat cut out due to wort scorching on element can I put a silicone coating on element or is there a better way?


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## hathro (6/10/14)

Cut out is due to high temperature, which is not exclusively caused by scorched wort. Best to do the mods above.


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## lukasfab (10/11/14)

cant get a 130c NC temp switch locally, only a 183c, any issues in using this?
dont want to wait a month to get one from HK

cheers


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## bundy (10/11/14)

lukasfab said:


> cant get a 130c NC temp switch locally, only a 183c, any issues in using this?
> dont want to wait a month to get one from HK
> 
> cheers


Hi lukasfab,

You could put it in but at 183'C you may as well just bypass or remove the Switch all together as 183'c is too high a temp and its not going to do it's job. (you'd probably have a fire before you got to that temp!) 

So if you are in a rush, bypass the Switch (Join the 2 wires together) and you are away. (Then order form HK and when it comes in replace it.

Or try ring a few local electronics suppliers. Decent electronics shops like Radio spares, Altronics, Jaycar should stock these things, or I just did a quick ebay search for you and there's a guy in Melbourne selling them also

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/THERMAL-SWITCH-TEMPERATURE-135-deg-N-C-12V-24V-250V-10A-/281215376844


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## Porkchop (10/11/14)

Stick a separate heating element in it. fixed


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## lukasfab (10/11/14)

bundy said:


> Hi lukasfab,
> 
> You could put it in but at 183'C you may as well just bypass or remove the Switch all together as 183'c is too high a temp and its not going to do it's job. (you'd probably have a fire before you got to that temp!)
> 
> ...


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## crowmanz (11/11/14)

looks like the buffalo urns are now up at $249.95 from nisbets, only checked on the weekend and they were at $175 (up from the low of $165)...hopefully they will have another reduction/sale before xmas


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## Jazzafish (5/1/15)

I have the same urn.

How are you finding the trub etc... caking to the bottom of the element plate?


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## Feldon (5/1/15)

crowmanz said:


> looks like the buffalo urns are now up at $249.95 from nisbets, only checked on the weekend and they were at $175 (up from the low of $165)...hopefully they will have another reduction/sale before xmas


Sign of the times perhaps. The Australian dollar is near record lows at the moment, and some pundits are predicting that it will sink to .75 cents to the US dollar. Good for exports (eg. minerals, wheat etc.), but importing goods is more expensive.

As old stock that was imported when the $AU was higher is sold, expect replacement stock to increase in price, unless importers and/or retailers want to cut margins to keep up cash flow in a sluggish consumer market.

Wasn't it only a year or so ago that the $AU reached parity with the $US? Things can change pretty quickly.

On the bright side, the lower $AU can make local manufacturing more competitive against imports - but then, are there any factories left in Australia?


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## hathro (7/1/15)

Jazzafish said:


> How are you finding the trub etc... caking to the bottom of the element plate?


Sometimes there is a bit of burnt wort but nothing serious. Maybe 20% of the element will have a bit of burnt wort that comes off with a scourer with little effort. When I say burnt, I mean caramelised, not charred.


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## crowmanz (18/1/15)

Just got the nisbets catalogue - 40L urns are down to $219.95 (or $199.95 ex GST) http://www.nisbets.com.au/Buffalo-Manual-Fill-Water-Urn-40Ltr/CC193-A/ProductDetail.raction


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