# BIAB Saison



## Hez (7/11/17)

Hi! After a lot of reading and studying I made up this recipe for a Belgian-saison-style beer and I have a million questions, as usual. 
Light colour, dry and a little hoppy. Mostly pilsner with a little bit of caramunich for colour and flavour. East Kent hops ("floral, lavender, spice, honey, earth, lemon, orange, grapefruit and thyme overtones", I already have them) up to ~30IBU for compensating the high gravity: 2/3 of the total IBUs at 60', the rest at 15' and some more for aroma after boil. Corn sugar for a drier beer. I left the spices alone in favour of the 0' hop addition, I'll use them next time if I feel I've got "bland" beer.

About the water chemistry (I'm starting to look into it), most people recommend a moderate boost in SO4 to enhance bitterness so I added some gypsum for getting 145ppm. 
I've also read that Mg helps yeast with simple sugars but my water already has 23ppm of Mg and the recommended maximum is 30ppm... I guess it doesn't need more. I haven't had fermentation problems so far.

People recommend going to PH 5.2 (mash, room temp.) with saisons, but the general recomendation for all beers is to keep it between 5.4 and 5.6 so just in case, I adjusted it to 5.4 (I bought a 250ml lactic acid bottle 88% from a hombrew supply) what do you think? 

About the Carbonate, although the water they have in Wallonnne has a lot of it, as @manticle told me, there's no point on trying to replicate historic water profiles... Do you think is it worth it to add carbonate and compensate it with more acid and salts?

About the gas/carbonation... you don't think it will need extra yeast for carbonation, do you!?

I plan to brew this one on 2017/11/18 if I can. I live in Mosman, NSW, so I expect an ambient temperature of 20-23º average. Probably it's still a little low but according to Steve Fletty (won Best of Show at the 2012 Minnesota State Fair) "(WLP565) yeast seem to perform as well at normal 20º than at 29º".
The alternative would be to brew another wheat beer now (witbier) and wait for january/february for this one... what do you think?

Thanks in advance for your help.

*VIDEOS:*
Jef Van Den Steen: 
I wish I had had this guy as a professor!  
Saison Dupont video: 


*ARTICLES:*
Saison: https://byo.com/mead/item/1341-saison
Saison for All Seasons: https://byo.com/cider/item/2822-saison-a-beer-for-all-seasons
Saison: Style Profile: https://byo.com/bock/item/1343-saison-style-profile
Saison Beer – Belgian Farmhouse Ale Recipes: http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/10/08/saison-beer-belgian-farmhouse-ale-recipes/
On the Yeast: Guide to Bottle Conditioning: https://byo.com/food-recipes/item/1207-on-the-yeast-guide-to-bottle-conditioning
Brewing with Sugar: https://byo.com/malt/item/327-brewing-with-sugar
Sweetness: Brewing Sugars & How To Use Them: https://byo.com/bock/item/1441-sweetness-brewing-sugars-how-to-use-them
Using Brewing Sugars: Tips from the Pros: https://byo.com/yeast/item/1552-using-brewing-sugars-tips-from-the-pros
East Kent Goldings: https://ychhops.com/varieties/east-kent-golding
Saison Dupont Clone: https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/438817/saison-dupont-clone


*BIAB PREMIÈRE SAISON RECIPE*
(10L batch)

*GRAIN:*
2750g 87.30% Pilsner
120g 3.80% CaraMunich
280g 8.88% Corn Sugar
----------------------
2870g TOTAL grain
+280g dextrose = 3150g

SRM 5.55 - EBC 10.94
Efficiency 70%
Preboil OG 1035 (without sugar) - 1062OG - 1014FG - ABV 6.25%
P.S. These data are from the calculator, I expect to have lower FG... 1.009? 1.007?

*HOPS:*
60' 16g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA -> 18.69IBU
15' 17g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA -> 9.86IBU
1' 17g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA -> 0.86IBU (steep 30' @80ºC before chilling)
TOTAL IBU 29.40

*YEAST:*
White Labs WLP565 (Belgian Saison Ale) Pitch @22º

*WATER PLAN:*
Batch: 10L
Grain absorption: 0.37L/kg
Boil-off rate: 4.1l/hour
Trub: 2L
Kettle size: 25L

CALCULATED ( http://www.biabcalculator.com/ ):
- TOTAL WATER NEEDED 19.23L
- STRIKE WATER TEMP 64ºC
- TOTAL MASH VOLUME 21.14L
- PREBOIL WORT 18.15L
- POSTBOIL WORT 12L


*WATER ADJUSTMENTS:*
http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

Starting water profile:
Ca+2 14.35 mg/L
Mg+2 22.50 mg/L
Na+ 15.65 mg/L
Cl- 30.25 mg/L
SO4-2 8.10 mg/L
HCO3- 41.5 mg/L

12.23L Mash Vol.
7.00L Sparge Vol.

2750g Base 2Row
120g 34L Crystal Malt (caramunich)

Adjust Mash pH DOWN:

2ml Lactic Acid 88% (20 drops)

Mash:
3g Gypsum/Calcium Sulphate/CaSO4 
13 drops Lactic Acid 88%

Sparge:
1.7g Gypsum/Calcium Sulphate/CaSO4 
7 drops Lactic Acid 88%

Ca: 70 <- Palmer's recommended range 50-150
Mg: 23 <- Palmer's recommended range 10-30
Na: 16 <- Palmer's recommended range 0-150
Cl: 30 <- Palmer's recommended range 0-250
SO4: 145 <- Palmer's recommended range 50-350
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.21 <- Below .77, May enhance bitterness 

Estimated pH (room temp): 5.42 <- Palmer's recommended range 5.4-5.6

*MASH:*
30' 62°C hydration and beta-amylase rest <- 12.23L (TOTAL WATER 19.23L - SPARGE 7L)
- 3g Gypsum/Calcium Sulphate/CaSO4 
- 13 drops Lactic Acid 88%
- 2750g Pilsner
- 120g CaraMunich

50' 66°C alpha-amylase rest

10' 76ºC mash out

Sparge 76ºC <- 7L
- 1.7g Gypsum/Calcium Sulphate/CaSO4 
- 7 drops Lactic Acid 88%

*BOIL:*
Check:
- Preboil wort 18.15L
- PH (room temp): 5.42
- Preboil OG 1035

60' 16g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA

20' 280g Corn Sugar

15' Insert chiller
15' 1/2 tablet Deltafloc
15' 17g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA

0' 17g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA (steep 30' @80ºC before chilling)

*FERMENT:*
Check:
- OG 1062
- Postboil wort 12L

Aerate thoroughly

White Labs WLP565 (Belgian Saison Ale) Pitch @22º

Ferment 24º-29º (until totally finished, it might be up to 3 weeks!)


*CARBONATION:*
Check: 
- carbonation is fully over! FG <= 1.009

3.0 CO2 vol. -> 2.9g Table sugar per 33cl bottle.
Bottle condition at least 3 weeks and fridge at least 24h.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (7/11/17)

Is this a question or a statement? 

My biggest 2 tips for Saison, which isn't nearly as considered as your research are 1. Wy3724 (if you get impatient, have a pack of dried Saison yeast ready to finish up) and 2. A minor souring, say in my case turn off the urn overnight and leave until the next afternoon.


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## Phoney (7/11/17)

Using a Saison yeast is probably the most important factor when brewing a saison.

I've never seen sugar in a saison recipe either, let alone 18% of the grain bill


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## Hez (7/11/17)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Is this a question or a statement?
> 
> My biggest 2 tips for Saison, which isn't nearly as considered as your research are 1. Wy3724 (if you get impatient, have a pack of dried Saison yeast ready to finish up) and 2. A minor souring, say in my case turn off the urn overnight and leave until the next afternoon.



Well, there's plenty of questions in the post... 
What do you think of the recipe? Do I use spices or do you think the 0' hop addition is a good idea? Both? What do you think of the salts? More gypsum? Do I add epsom salts? Do I add carbonates? Do I lower the ph to 5.2 or is it 5.4 ok? Will I need extra yeast for carbonating (I bottle)?
Do you mean start with the Belgian yeast for saison and add another pack of dry yeast after one week? Do You think ambient temperature in Sydney will be hot enough for this yeast or should I wait one more month?


What do you mean by "a minor souring, turn off the urn" ? 
Sorry , as you might have guessed I'm not an english speaker and I still don't know the brewing slang... :S

A million questions!!!


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## Hez (7/11/17)

Phoney said:


> Using a Saison yeast is probably the most important factor when brewing a saison.
> 
> I've never seen sugar in a saison recipe either, let alone 18% of the grain bill


Sorry it was a typo, I intend to use:
White Labs WLP565 (Belgian Saison Ale)
I've corrected the original post
About the sugar, I've seen it in several saison beers, according to jef van den steen, it helps drying the beer. And it's not 18%, just 8.8%! :S
But I can always modify the recipe for removing it...


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## Phoney (7/11/17)

Fair enough. It does dry the beer, but saison yeasts tend to finish up very, very low so you will end up with a dry beer regardless. Your 1.062 OG may well finish at 1.005 - thats 7.5%ABV.

Sorry, I thought I read: 280g 8.88% Corn Sugar +280g dextrose

Dextrose is a type of sugar.


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## Hez (7/11/17)

Phoney said:


> Fair enough. It does dry the beer, but saison yeasts tend to finish up very, very low so you will end up with a dry beer regardless.
> 
> Sorry, I thought I read: 280g 8.88% Corn Sugar +280g dextrose
> 
> Dextrose is sugar.


Dextrose = corn sugar. 
In any case , what I have is dextrose.
So no sugar at all, easy, I just have to add more pilsner and recalculate a few things
Thank you.


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## luggy (7/11/17)

For me this style is all about the yeast, you've got a pretty good recipe there I'd dial back the sugar a bit but. Belgian saison can handle higher temps as well don't be afraid to let the temp get into the high 20's


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## Hez (7/11/17)

luggy said:


> For me this style is all about the yeast, you've got a pretty good recipe there I'd dial back the sugar a bit but. Belgian saison can handle higher temps as well don't be afraid to let the temp get into the high 20's


So.. 5% ? More? Less? Nothing ?
Thanks!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (7/11/17)

I brewed my last saison on soft water, no additions and yeah, it's all about the yeast.

I played with water and every dried Saison yeast on the market and nothing worked until I got the right yeast.

As for the urn off slightly sour, it's sort of a kettle sour but stops short. After mashing in at night, I let it cool to room temp, leave overnight until next afternoon, boil, hop and finish. It's not a kettle sour but seems to give it that extra bit of tart kick but more subtle.


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## manticle (7/11/17)

For me saison is pretty simple.

Mostly pils
Some wheat malt 25% or less
Mash low (63 max)
Noble hop, preference for hallertauer mittelfruh , can be combined with styrian goldings or used alone. IBUs in the 25-40 range, some gentle late hopping and even dry hopping can work (styrians work well dry, don't go stupid).

Saison yeast is a must -3711 french from wyeast is a favourite. Start a bit low (maybe 20), after two days, let nature take its course. 27-28 is fine.

Alternatively, 3724 belgian - again 2 days low but this yeast likes it mega hot and may stall under 30. Put a fire in its belly.

No sugar.
No spice.
No crystal.
No carbonate.
No souring

Soft water, Ph to 5.2-5.4 at room temp with acid and calcium salt: cal chloride for malt to mash and boil, hint of gypsum to boil if you want, acid to sparge if sparging.

Simple beer needs attention and a judicious hand.


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## contrarian (7/11/17)

Have to agree with the above. It’s a simple for seasonal workers. Mine tend to be mainly pils with some wheat and acidulated malt to drop pH if necessary. 

It’s all about the yeast and if you treat that right the rest will take care of itself. I love styrian goldings and normally just have additions at 60 and 15 to max 25 IBU. 

You just want enough to have balanced bitterness and subtle flavour to play with the yeast. 

Mash low, ferment hot with a good yeast and try a few to find what you like. Some are smoother and funkier, others are more tart. It’s all about finding what you like. 

It’s a simple beer for the seasonal workers, don’t overthink it any more than you already have!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/11/17)

Repeat what the guys above said (thankfully I'm sober and on a keyboard, not a device).

Mainly Pils, I use a tiny bit of cara-something and about 30% wheat malt. Whatever noble (or british) hop I have on hand.

Good yeast running very hot. Easy in Qld.

No water adjustments.

As stated above a tiny pseudo-kettle sour made it better, but realistically between that and the finishing with Danstar/Lallemand Belle Saison was simply to get the farmhouse character without spending the time waiting for it.


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## Hez (8/11/17)

So... 80% pils, 20%wheat, no sugar, no crystal/caramel. What about some (~5%) munich or vienna non-cara?
The thing is, this weekend I had a saison on tap in a pub in surry hills and it tasted very very similar to my german wheat beer (50% pilsner and 50% wheat, more banana) :S So much I went back to the bar to check the tap to see if it was a saison or some kind of wheat beer! That's why I didn't want to use wheat on this one...

About the mash, do you think this is alright?
40' 62°C hydration and beta-amylase rest 
40' 66°C alpha-amylase rest
10'' 76ºC mash out

My homebrew supplier only has WLP565, it looks like a very specific (and expensive) belgian saison yeast... I've read some people say it's very good and other people make a mix of this one + other dry yeasts I don't know.
I overcome my lack of experience and yeast knowledge by buying expensive yeast and doubling the amount of it I need. I do 10L batches and I use a fresh new whole package of 12$ yeast (intended for 20L) everytime. One step at a time... at some point I will start to sutdy the yeast, right now I'm still starting to look into the water chemistry...

About the hops, I already bought the East Kent Goldings because every Saison Dupont clone recipe I've run into calls for it! :S 
I also have a very low alpha tettnanger (1.8%!!) I was saving for making another wheat beer (I have just enough for 1 batch), do you think it would be a good idea to use the tettnanger instead of the east kent goldings for the last addition?



manticle said:


> ...
> Soft water, Ph to 5.2-5.4 at room temp with acid and calcium salt: cal chloride for malt to mash and boil, hint of gypsum to boil if you want, acid to sparge if sparging.
> ...



So you recommend to go to a balanced CL/SO4 proportion but add only the chloride to the mash and the gypsum later into the boil, is that it?
ah! and add all the acid into the sparge water instead of the proportional part to both the initial water and the sparge water, isn't it?

Thanks a lot to everyone!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/11/17)

If you're getting the banana, it'll be yeast-derived, not the wheat. Like you said, German Wheat has the classic banana taste and that's derived from the yeast. Not sure why their Saison has that, you'd need to ask the brewer, but don't drop wheat for the sake of banana, because you're executing the wrong criminal.

WLP565, I've never used but researched it in the past and it looks like it'll do the job similar to WY3711.

I used Willamette (American Grown Fuggles) in my best Saison, not an issue in my books.


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## earle (8/11/17)

Yep, don't shoot the wheat. I've made 100% wheat saisons with absolutely no banana, taste like saisons should and not like a hefeweizen.

Wyeast French Saison yeast gets my vote.

Also, don't trust clone recipes even if they're published on a reputable website like BYO. I've seen some with ingredients that are obviously wrong, and then they try to correct for that by adding another wrong ingredient such as an essence.


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## Hez (8/11/17)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> If you're getting the banana, it'll be yeast-derived, not the wheat. Like you said, German Wheat has the classic banana taste and that's derived from the yeast. Not sure why their Saison has that, you'd need to ask the brewer, but don't drop wheat for the sake of banana, because you're executing the wrong criminal.
> 
> WLP565, I've never used but researched it in the past and it looks like it'll do the job similar to WY3711.
> 
> I used Willamette (American Grown Fuggles) in my best Saison, not an issue in my books.



Maybe they weren't using the proper saison yeast. To be honest, this is one of the beer styles which I'm not very familiar with... last week I bought a Bridge Road Brewers Chevalier Saison (from Dan Murphy's) and it was way better, it didn't have so much banana flavour, but it tasted a little like a witbier and it wasn't as dry and acidic as I expected.

Also I had another saison on tap in Harts Pub (the Rocks, Sydney) a couple of months ago but it didn't convince me at all... it was a watery raspberry juice (no body at all, 3.8% abv, raspberry infused) but I give it a + for dryness and tartness.

Thanks for your advice, we're getting there... jejeje

By the way... Now I see my first post was overwhelming, I shouldn't have made ALL the calculations from the beginning. But I guess at some point all of you do the same, don't you? or you have so much experience that you throw stuff to the kettle and you get a perfect beer exactly as you wanted every time? That's a mom-superpower, open the fridge, put a little bit of this and a little bit of that without measuring anything and get a 3 michelin star dish.


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## Hez (8/11/17)

What about (for a 10L batch with 70% efficiency):

*GRAIN*
~75% 2450g Pilsner
~20% 650g Wheat Malt
~3% 100g Munich (light) _?? with or without?_
~2% 60g Vienna _?? with or without?_
OG 1.060 - FG 1.007_??_ -> ABV 6.96%
SRM 4.24

*MASH*
40' 62ºC
40' 66ºC
10' 76ºC

*WATER ADJUSTMENTS*
Gypsum (CaSO4): 4.7g -> 3g mash + 1.7g sparge
Calc. Chloride (CaCl2): 3.3g -> 2.1g mash + 1.2g sparge
Lactic Acid 88%: 3.5ml (35drops) -> 23drops mash + 12drops sparge
PH 5.3; Ca 117ppm; Cl 113ppm; SO4 145ppm -> Ratio Chloride/Sulphate 0.78 = Balanced (low)
(that's from the calculator, but use: cal. chloride into the mash water, lactic acid into the sparge water and gypsum into the boil)

*HOPS*
60' 16g East Kent Goldings: 18.92IBU
15' 17g East Kent Goldings: 9.97IBU
0' @80ºC for 30' 17g East Kent Goldings: 0.87IBU
IBU 29.76

*YEAST*
WLP565


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## earle (8/11/17)

I note that your revised recipe has a higher ABV than your original. It's totally up to you but for me saisons are an easy drinking summer beer. According to the BJCP guidelines they can have an ABV as low as 3.5. Most of mine have been around 4-5. Just depends what you really want.


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## Hez (8/11/17)

earle said:


> I note that your revised recipe has a higher ABV than your original. It's totally up to you but for me saisons are an easy drinking summer beer. According to the BJCP guidelines they can have an ABV as low as 3.5. Most of mine have been around 4-5. Just depends what you really want.



Yes I think I calculated the ABV based into the default 1.014 FG from the calculator, but apparently saison yeasts reach lower FG.
If I were a farmer in the 18th century working under "the terrible Belgian sun" (LOL XD JAJAJA!) I guess I would like to drink 5L of beer a day, so 3.5% would be more than enough. Now we have safe-to-drink water and I plan to drink this beer with food, being properly hydrated and in moderate quantities... but yes, you're 100% right, 7% is too much for a "refreshing beer", I'll adjust it to 5.5-6% I reduced the OG from 1062 to 1060, I guess I should go for 1052.
Thanks for the observation!
I'll do the exact calculations when I have decided 100% on the recipe.

What do you think about adding the Munich and Vienna touch? yes or no?


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## earle (8/11/17)

I have generally added about 100g of a crystal malt in my saisons. Again make your beer what you want. You've suggested that you want dry and acidic so you might leave it out all together as suggested above. My latest saison is a christmas spiced saison so I wanted the funky spicy flavours with a bit richer beer so I added 700g of Munich I. But it won't be a classic saison.

French saison yeast is a monster and can ferment right down to 1002. I see you're using the belgian saison yeast. I've currently got my first saason with belgian saison yeast (Wyeast) fermenting now but am thinking it should get down to about 1008. A lot of the software doesn't calculate accurately for the low FG of saisons.


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## Hez (8/11/17)

earle said:


> I have generally added about 100g of a crystal malt in my saisons. Again make your beer what you want. You've suggested that you want dry and acidic so you might leave it out all together as suggested above. My latest saison is a christmas spiced saison so I wanted the funky spicy flavours with a bit richer beer so I added 700g of Munich I. But it won't be a classic saison.
> 
> French saison yeast is a monster and can ferment right down to 1002. I see you're using the belgian saison yeast. I've currently got my first saason with belgian saison yeast (Wyeast) fermenting now but am thinking it should get down to about 1008. A lot of the software doesn't calculate accurately for the low FG of saisons.



Yep, you're right again. F*ck it. Do or don't, but don't do it half way, isn't it?
I'll do just 80% pils +20% wheat, no spices, no sh*t. And I'll go to OG 1052 which would give me around 5.5%ABV. This one is going to last very little... jejeje
Then I will think what I want to change for the next time.


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## earle (8/11/17)

Hez said:


> Yep, you're right again. F*ck it. Do or don't, but don't do it half way, isn't it?
> I'll do just 80% pils +20% wheat, no spices, no sh*t. And I'll go to OG 1052 which would give me around 5.5%ABV. This one is going to last very little... jejeje
> Then I will think what I want to change for the next time.


Now you're talking.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/11/17)

And it'll give an awesome clean base to do experiments later.


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## manticle (8/11/17)

Hez said:


> So... 80% pils, 20%wheat, no sugar, no crystal/caramel. What about some (~5%) munich or vienna non-cara?
> The thing is, this weekend I had a saison on tap in a pub in surry hills and it tasted very very similar to my german wheat beer (50% pilsner and 50% wheat, more banana) :S So much I went back to the bar to check the tap to see if it was a saison or some kind of wheat beer! That's why I didn't want to use wheat on this one...
> 
> About the mash, do you think this is alright?
> ...



Tett and EKG will be fine.

Not quite with the salts. This is my approach:

Using a spreadsheet, get calcium to the minimum (or preferred) level for the beer you want to make. In this case, I'd target 50 - 100 ppm. Select chloride or sulphate or a balance depending on whether you want to accentuate malt, hop or both. Chloride for malt, sulphate for hop.

Then assess whether the mash pH will be right. If it is too high, add acid until it is correct (to the mash or to the strike water but I prefer the mash). In a pale beer like this with Sydney water, it won't be too low but that adjustment is another kettle of fish.

In addition to the above, add some of your chosen calcium salt/s to the boil and if sparging, add some of your chosen acid to the sparge water.

If you have a pH meter or even some decent strips, you can check the pH and make sure your calculator/spreadsheet is on the money. Definitely when learning, you should actually measure the mash pH rather than rely on software which is a guide only. If you do have a good meter, measure wort pH in the kettle and again at the end. To get really detail obsessed, you can also measure finished beer pH. Keep it simple this time and just get mash pH right - all things being equal, the rest should fall into place.

No to Vienna.


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## luggy (8/11/17)

earle said:


> I have generally added about 100g of a crystal malt in my saisons. Again make your beer what you want. You've suggested that you want dry and acidic so you might leave it out all together as suggested above. My latest saison is a christmas spiced saison so I wanted the funky spicy flavours with a bit richer beer so I added 700g of Munich I. But it won't be a classic saison.
> 
> French saison yeast is a monster and can ferment right down to 1002. I see you're using the belgian saison yeast. I've currently got my first saason with belgian saison yeast (Wyeast) fermenting now but am thinking it should get down to about 1008. A lot of the software doesn't calculate accurately for the low FG of saisons.



In my experience the Belgian strain will go way lower than that, I've had one batch go as low as 1.000. My favourite saison strain mate I'm sure you'll be happy with the results


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## Hez (9/11/17)

There we go again... I hope this time is alright!

*GRAIN AND YEAST*
~80% 2150g Pilsner
~20% 550g Wheat Malt
OG 1.050
SRM 3.44; EBC 6.78

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp565-belgian-saison-i-yeast
According to White Labs the WLP565 Belgian Saison Yeast attenuation is 65-75%, but according to you @earle, @luggy, @Lord Raja Goomba I, I've made this table:
FG 1.000 -> ABV 6.56% Attenuation:100%
FG 1.005 -> ABV 5.91% Attenuation:90%
FG 1.007 -> ABV 5.64% Attenuation:85%
FG 1.010 -> ABV 5.25% Attenuation:79%
FG 1.012 -> ABV 4.99% Attenuation:75%

I will stick to the 1.050 OG, I think 5-6% ABV it's a good range for this one.

*MASH*
40' 62ºC
40' 66ºC
10' 76ºC

*HOPS*
60' 13g East Kent Goldings: 16.29IBU
15' 14g East Kent Goldings: 8.70IBU
0' @80ºC for 30' 30g Tettnanger: 0.57IBU
IBU 25.56

I've dimished the bitterness from 30 to 25IBU (lower ABV) and added a big very-low-alpha-acid-Tettnanger addition at 0' for flavour/aroma as suggested by manticle.
https://ychhops.com/varieties/tettnang-1
Jef Van der Steen would be proud of me 

P.S. New doubt: Should I dry hop as well? how much? 3g/L? 6g/L? I only have 30g of tettnanger left... If I dry hop should I use the east kent goldings for the boil and the tettnanger for the dry hopping or should I mix them? :S

*WATER ADJUSTMENTS*


manticle said:


> Using a spreadsheet, get calcium to the minimum (or preferred) level for the beer you want to make. In this case, I'd target 50 - 100 ppm. Select chloride or sulphate or a balance depending on whether you want to accentuate malt, hop or both. Chloride for malt, sulphate for hop.
> 
> Then assess whether the mash pH will be right. If it is too high, add acid until it is correct (to the mash or to the strike water but I prefer the mash). In a pale beer like this with Sydney water, it won't be too low but that adjustment is another kettle of fish.



I used the EZ_water_calculator_3.0.2 (http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/)
With:
-Gypsum: 1,3 to mash, 0,7 to sparge
-Calc. Chloride: 0,6g to mash, 0,3g to sparge
-Lactic Acid 88%: 3.5ml in total, 22drops to mash, 13 drops to sparge

I got:
-Ca: 52ppm (recommended 50-150) <- to minimum!
-Cl: 54ppm (recommended 0-250)
-S04: 68ppm (recommended 50-350)
-Clorate/sulfate ratio: 0,80 -> balanced, a little on the "enhance bitterness"
-Mash PH 5.3 (room-temp)

so far so good...



manticle said:


> In addition to the above, add some of your chosen calcium salt/s to the boil and if sparging, add some of your chosen acid to the sparge water.



I do "BIAB sparge", basically, I take the bag out of THE kettle after the mash out, I put it over a steaming pot (it has a big-hole-strainer/colander) and transfer the sparge water from another pot over the bag with a hose and gravity, then I put the resultant "sparge wort" back into the kettle for boiling. So I say I only use one big pot, but it's not true, I use 3 of them! 

Sorry manticle, but I don't understand. How should I use the salts and acid then?
O1- like the spreadsheet says: to mash and sparge water, both acid and salts.
O2- salts into the boil, acid into the sparge
O3- like O1 + additional salts into the boil <- how much?! the rest until 100ppm in the same proportion Cl/SO4 ?



manticle said:


> If you have a pH meter or even some decent strips, you can check the pH and make sure your calculator/spreadsheet is on the money. Definitely when learning, you should actually measure the mash pH rather than rely on software which is a guide only. If you do have a good meter, measure wort pH in the kettle and again at the end. To get really detail obsessed, you can also measure finished beer pH. Keep it simple this time and just get mash pH right - all things being equal, the rest should fall into place.



I was thinking about buying a pH meter but the cheap ones are a waste and the good ones are too expensive and need so much care! I don't know if it's something I can justify at this stage. So I bought "a 100 PH 4.5 - 9.0 strips" from ebay and I think I wasted the 7$ they cost me. I tried them with my saliva and I think I must be very sick, the reading was around 6.5 
Anyway, I'll try them with this one to see at least if I'm doing it more or less ok. Where can I find good ph strips? I don't want to have a discussion about pH meters here in this post, I will look into it if you tell me that's the way to go.

thank you!


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## earle (9/11/17)

luggy said:


> In my experience the Belgian strain will go way lower than that, I've had one batch go as low as 1.000. My favourite saison strain mate I'm sure you'll be happy with the results


Thanks mate. Hydro samples are tasting good but I need it to get to FG so I can bottle for the xmas case swap. You're not heading down to this one?


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## earle (9/11/17)

Hez said:


> There we go again... I hope this time is alright!
> 
> 
> P.S. New doubt: Should I dry hop as well? how much? 3g/L? 6g/L? I only have 30g of tettnanger left... If I dry hop should I use the east kent goldings for the boil and the tettnanger for the dry hopping or should I mix them? :S



No, don't dry hop. This style is all about the yeast so if you're going for a classic saison flavour hops will get in the way. As LRGI said in a previous post make this one an awesome base, then if you want to change up future batches do it then.


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## manticle (9/11/17)

Not sure I suggested a big tett addition at 0 although some late hopping is fine. 25 ibu is fine, as is 30. From memory I used the word 'gentle'. Dry hop is in keeping with historical saison but not needed. Keep it simple for your first. If you do decide to dry hop, use ekg rather than tett.

As for salts - option 1 but add another dose of salts to the kettle if you want. Think of it like seasoning a soup. Calcium helps pH and a bunch of other things in the mash, it also helps with a bunch of things in boil and fermentation. Sulphate and chloride aspects help with flavour.


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## Hez (9/11/17)

manticle said:


> Not sure I suggested a big tett addition at 0 although some late hopping is fine. 25 ibu is fine, as is 30. From memory I used the word 'gentle'. Dry hop is in keeping with historical saison but not needed. Keep it simple for your first. If you do decide to dry hop, use ekg rather than tett.
> 
> As for salts - option 1 but add another dose of salts to the kettle if you want. Think of it like seasoning a soup. Calcium helps pH and a bunch of other things in the mash, it also helps with a bunch of things in boil and fermentation. Sulphate and chloride aspects help with flavour.



I said that, but I meant you suggested I use tettnanger! Lost in translation, sorry... anyway, 30g /10L is not such a BIG addition, I got excited jejeje

Ah! now I understand. Thank you very much, manticle, you are a great teacher 

@earle convinced me and manticle ratified it, no dry hops this time.

I'll make the full calculations again and order the ingredients. I hope I can brew it next saturday (not this one, the next one). I'll keep you updated!
Thanks again to everyone!


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## manticle (9/11/17)

Yeah tett's a great hop.


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## luggy (9/11/17)

earle said:


> Thanks mate. Hydro samples are tasting good but I need it to get to FG so I can bottle for the xmas case swap. You're not heading down to this one?




Not sure mate I'll have to see closer to the date, hoping I can make it


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## Hez (20/11/17)

I finally did it on saturday. Weird stuff happened...
First of all I realized I ordered 50g of grain less than I calculated, just because. 
After having put all the corresponding salts and acid into the mash, I measured the pH with the strips and I got around 5.6! Remember I adjusted it to 5.3 in the water chemistry spreadsheet. After the sparge (I also added the corresponding salts and acid to the sparge water) I took another measurement and got exactly the same!
I moved to the boiling and it was 0.6L short. I think the calculated grain absorption was low so I topped up before boiling, no big deal. 
Then I added the remaining salts "for seasoning" and measured the pH again: 5.6 <- what's going on!? As I didn't know if my strips are inaccurate or what and it was still within the recommended range, I decided not to add more acid. Should I have added it?

Then I did the hop additions within the hop spider. The East Kent Goldings (pellets) are from are different supplier and they expanded a lot into the wort. After the second addition the spider was almost full! After the last 0' addition it was totally full. I think this was a waste... should I buy a bigger spider, use several hop shocks or dump directly the hops inside the kettle?
If so, how do I keep them from going into the fermenter? Remember I do BIAB. My kettle doesn't have a tap/spiggot. Do I use a colander/strainer? :S
I think this might be the reason why all my IPA attempts have failed to be hoppy enough...

I got 12L into the fermenter, exactly as I calculated (10L + 2L trub), I measured the OG and I got 1056!!! and I had calculated the OG with 50g more of grain to 1050. So I added 1L of cold water from the tap and measured again: 1052. I didn't add more water because I didn't want to dilute more the IBUs. 
So I redid the calculations and I had an impressive (for me) result:

Wort Collected: 18.3L
Batch Size after boil: 13L
2.15kg German Pilsner
0.55kg Wheat Malt
OG 1052
27.96IBU
------------------> *79% efficiency*!!!

In my first brews I had a consistent 68% efficiency using 2L sparge. Then in my last 2 I increased it and I had 70%. This time I increased the sparge to 7L (~36% of the total water) and I did it slower. On top of that it's the pH and salts adjustement and on top of that I used a lot of weyerman's pilsner for the first time, I think, I beleive I've never asked especifically for that brand, so I guess I've used Joe White malts all the time.

Do you think it is possible I've had 79% efficiency doing BIAB with my shitty equipment and experience? Or I've made a wrong calculation or something? I can't beleive this is right, I don't trust myself. :S

Well, I pitched at ~19º and it's been around 20º since then. Yesterday the airlock was making a bubble a second.. and they say this is a lazy/slow yeast.

I'll keep you updated.


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## Hez (21/11/17)

OH! what do you think of this: 

https://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/guide-saisons-and-saison-yeasts 

?? 

BTW, in the spanish forum and into the yeast package itself they say not to raise the temperature more than 25ºC while fermenting, but the yanks say to reach it upt to 29º and even 35º !!!

It's been 3 days between 18º and 20º, today I'm taking it out from the bucket with the t-shirt and esky-blocks so it raises wildly... This week it's going to be between 16º and 27º in Sydney, but inside my appartment it would be like 18º to 24º, I hope that's enough...

I've been looking for a second hand bar fridge I can use for my tiny fermenter and it's impossible to find one!


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## Quokka42 (25/11/17)

KK got the White Labs 568 in again and I grabbed some. Thinking of Pilsner, Wheat, a little UK crystal and some home made "Candi Sugar," clear but made with good raw sugar.
I'd prefer to use the hops I have as I believe Saison is more yeast than hop based - so what do people think of 10g Magnum first wort, 10g Saaz at 15 minutes (a little spice to work with the fruitiness of the yeast) and 10g at flameout for some spice/aroma?

I'm no Saison expert, but I thought I'd try the "Candi Sugar" as it seems to be in a lot of actual traditional recipes and should offset some of the acidic aspects of the yeast and grist?

Don't be afraid to offend - I offend a lot of people (I'm an opinionated bastard that actually prefers my own brews to just about anything commercial - even when they fall short of perfection.)


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## Hez (25/11/17)

Quokka42 said:


> KK got the White Labs 568 in again and I grabbed some. Thinking of Pilsner, Wheat, a little UK crystal and some home made "Candi Sugar," clear but made with good raw sugar.
> I'd prefer to use the hops I have as I believe Saison is more yeast than hop based - so what do people think of 10g Magnum first wort, 10g Saaz at 15 minutes (a little spice to work with the fruitiness of the yeast) and 10g at flameout for some spice/aroma?
> 
> I'm no Saison expert, but I thought I'd try the "Candi Sugar" as it seems to be in a lot of actual traditional recipes and should offset some of the acidic aspects of the yeast and grist?
> ...


Mine has been already a week in the fermenter and is still there, I'll take a gravity reading tomorrow to see how it goes, but it looks like it they are in the famous saison yeast stall...

About your recipe I can't tell, this is my first saison, but from what I've read it sounds very similar to other recipes I've seen in different forums, blogs, etc .
Many people use saaz and three additions at "first wort", 15 ' and "whirlpool".
I've never used Magnum so I can't tell. I know that: "thinking all hops for bittering are the same is ludicrous" , but as long as you make your ibu calculations correctly and using another hops for aroma and this yeast... White in a bottle.
Good luck.


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## Hez (26/11/17)

It's been 8 days. After day 4 it almost stopped bubbling. Sometimes you see one, but I stood 5 minutes at it and nothing. Just when I was about to take a gravity reading blup! One bubble! Jeje
The gravity now is 1005!!!!
It's done in a week!
I've tried the beer from the hydrometer and it's dry and tart. Really really light in colour and it has the characteristic flavour of the saison but very very mild, bland for my taste.
No hoppy mess whatsoever... [emoji52]
Should I wait more ? Is it worth to take measurements everyday ? What if it's totally done? What if it's in "the saison yeast stall"?
:S


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## mondestrunken (26/11/17)

Great thread. Love a saison. Sorry to hijack...
I heard WLP565 is pretty temperamental and can easily end up sticking. Seems like not the case here?
Last saison I did was with Lallemand Belle Saison, but I'd prefer to use the liquid. Any thoughts?


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## Hez (26/11/17)

mondestrunken said:


> Great thread. Love a saison. Sorry to hijack...
> I heard WLP565 is pretty temperamental and can easily end up sticking. Seems like not the case here?
> Last saison I did was with Lallemand Belle Saison, but I'd prefer to use the liquid. Any thoughts?


I've read lots of people in Europe use the belle saison. But obviously no experience with that jeje
Nope, some people say this one usually eats for one week, then stalls for the second one around 1020-1030 and then finishes the job on the third one to less than 1007. Not In my case!
I don't know if I should bottle it right away... And how much should I condition in the bottle? 3 weeks ? More?


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## manticle (26/11/17)

Try a fast ferment test.


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## Hez (26/11/17)

manticle said:


> Try a fast ferment test.


http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fast_Ferment_Test
Cool!
But... How do i take a sample of the yeast I'm using from my plastic fermenter? Or should I use bread yeast (I have on hand, I make my own pizza dough )?
You just opened a new Pandora's box with many many questions inside, manticle! Jejeje 
Oh! Next thing to study! Yeast!
I will study it before and then come back with particular questions.

BTW I'm still looking for a second hand bar fridge without any luck... 
Too big , too small, too expensive or too broken!  if somebody in Sydney knows about one big enough for a 15L plastic fermenter (38*30*35cm) please tell me!


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## Garfield (8/12/17)

earle said:


> No, don't dry hop. This style is all about the yeast so if you're going for a classic saison flavour hops will get in the way. As LRGI said in a previous post make this one an awesome base, then if you want to change up future batches do it then.



The BJCP notes on Saison indicates dry hopping is not uncommon. I personally prefer a bit of hops to compliment the yeast drive


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## earle (8/12/17)

Garfield said:


> The BJCP notes on Saison indicates dry hopping is not uncommon. I personally prefer a bit of hops to compliment the yeast drive


The old BJCP guidelines mentioned that they are sometimes dry hopped but I was not able to find any mention of dry hopping in the current BJCP guidelines. Happy to be corrected though if you can point me towards it.

In any case, my recommendation for someone doing their first saison would be to go easy on the hops and let the yeast shine through, as it's the dry finish and yeast character that sets this style apart from others. After that push the hops if you want.


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## Hez (8/12/17)

earle said:


> The old BJCP guidelines mentioned that they are sometimes dry hopped but I was not able to find any mention of dry hopping in the current BJCP guidelines. Happy to be corrected though if you can point me towards it.
> 
> In any case, my recommendation for someone doing their first saison would be to go easy on the hops and let the yeast shine through, as it's the dry finish and yeast character that sets this style apart from others. After that push the hops if you want.


Well, saison dupont makes one without dry hopping and another one with dry hopping.

I don't know if that's be historically correct, who cares.
I made this one, my first without dry hopping, depending on the result I might try something different next time.

I bottled on saturday, btw. 2 more weeks and I'll open one to see how are they doing...


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (8/12/17)

A Saison is very versatile with the hops, as long as you are not screwing with its fundamental qualities


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## Hez (18/12/17)

I couldn't help it, I opened one this saturday (only two weeks bottle conditioning) and it was... awesome! This is not my favourite style of beer but it is exactly what I was after. Dry, a little tart, refreshing, it doesn't feel very alcoholic although is around 6%, good carbonation, nice head, very light in colour, hazy and it has this characteristic saison taste/aroma. I did it! 

I made some cool labels too! "glued" with milk, easy to put and easy to remove 

Thank you all for your help, I'm very happy with the results.


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