# Recommend me a new sanitiser



## Robbo2234 (21/8/16)

Hi all 
I am almost finished my sodium met and looking for a new sanitiser. 

This is my current routine. 
Sodium perc and 4lt if boiling water screw the lid on shake about a few times over ten minutes. Empty and do the same with sodium met. 
I have tried iodophor a few times but got an infection every time. 

There is a guy down the street who only uses Boling water and has been brewing for years and has never had a problem! He says I shouldn't bother with chemicals

Thanks


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## SBOB (21/8/16)

star san gets my vote

no rinse and dont fear the foam


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## Blind Dog (21/8/16)

SBOB said:


> star san gets my vote


Mine too (or at least the cheaper phosphoric acid blend sanitiser knock-off), although I still use sodium met sometimes (never on metals) just to change things up


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## Exile (21/8/16)

Star san is great but expensive. Cheaper alternative is the Aussie versions, Its the same blend .....

http://www.brewman.com.au/web/showproduct.asp?prodid=932
http://kegking.com.au/cleaners-and-sanitising-equipment/phosphoric-acid-blend-sanitiser-350ml-starsan.html


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## droid (21/8/16)

yep - star san here too, just spray that stuff everywhere, let it naturally drain

paracetic acid for me next then back to star-san


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## yankinoz (21/8/16)

Star-San or Grain and Grape's phosphoric acid sanitiser.

Percarb is only moderately effective with short contact times. Boiling water, are you sure it's still hot when it reaches everything in our system? Boiling or boiled water is of course fine for rinsing. 

Iodophor is highly effective if you are careful to avoid or compensate for degradation of the solution. That can happen several ways. Dissolved organic matter in water reacts with free iodine. That's mainly a problem if your water is from surface sources. Chlorine in water reacts and consumes a tiny amount. Sunlight degrades the solution. For iodophor solutions use carbon-filtered water and/or calculate your additions only after a tinge of colour appears. Make sure the colour reaches amber; you can find appropriate images online.


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## Hpal (21/8/16)

I use perc for soaking fermenters. Sod-Met for swishing round in fermenters before storage. But mostly, I just use boiling water on everything that can take it. Fermenters, cubes, bottles prior to filling, hoses, kegs. Works well and washes off any residue from sanitizers.


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## dicko (21/8/16)

Napisan or sodium percarbonate is a good cleaner....Starsan is the "go to" sanitiser

and what you said yourself here is spot on...



Robbo2234 said:


> Hi all
> 
> 
> There is a guy down the street who only uses Boling water and has been brewing for years and has never had a problem! He says I shouldn't bother with chemicals
> Thanks


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## neal32 (21/8/16)

Cleaner - PBW
Sanitizer - StarSan 

/thread


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## Feldon (21/8/16)

The no-rinse sanitiser I use.





It's 3% Hydrogen Peroxide solution.

Breaks down in use leaving nothing more sinister than oxygen and water.

Cheap if you buy it in six or ten bottle lots.


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## Grott (21/8/16)

Feldon said:


> The no-rinse sanitiser I use.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I take it is not reusable therefore is it that cheap compared to the StarSan and similar types?


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## Crusty (21/8/16)

I clean or soak with Napisan.
Sanitize with Starsan.
As above, starsan can be used quite a few times before it needs to be discarded.


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## Feldon (21/8/16)

grott said:


> I take it is not reusable therefore is it that cheap compared to the StarSan and similar types?


Cheap in absolute, not relative, terms.


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/16)

Idealy, you should rotate tour sanitation regime using different chemicalsand techniques. This helps stop resistance buildups

You can use

Sodium-Percarbonate ( Nappii-san )
Bleach
Peroxide
Caustic Soda
Phosphoric Acid ( Star-San )
Idophor ( iodine base )
UV rays ( direct sunlight )

Phos Acid can be bought in bulk (20Ltrs) from dairy supply places, its actually fairly cheap and the same active ingrediant. Although 20ltr is likely to last yo about 2000 yrs


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## mikec (21/8/16)

Perc for cleaning. Starsan for sanitising. As has been said above.
Met is fine but you are rinsing after, correct? No longer sanitised.
Sanitise with starsan just before use and don't rinse.


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## rude (21/8/16)

grott said:


> I take it is not reusable therefore is it that cheap compared to the StarSan and similar types?


No foam though 
I use the Huwa - San TR-5 hydrogen peroxide
Might give the paracetic acid a go next once the Huwa runs out


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## Feldon (21/8/16)

Robbo2234 said:


> Hi all
> I am almost finished my sodium met and looking for a new sanitiser.
> 
> This is my current routine.
> ...



Just reread your process, and that maybe that's the issue.

The active agent that can clean and sanitize (yes both) when using Sodium Percarbonate is Hydrogen Peroxide which is produced when you add the Sod Perc to water. The Hydrogen Peroxide releases free oxygen into solution and this is what cleans and sanitizes. If you use only boiling water to dissolve the Sod Perc at the outset you are possibly driving off most of the free oxygen to atmosphere at the very start. Better to use just enough hot water to dissolve the Sod Perc, then top up with cold water. The other thing is that you say you only give the Sod Perc 10 minutes to work. Give it longer. Coopers recommends the hot/cold water addition process mentioned above, then filling the fermentor and leaving it overnight.

Another issue is, do you really need a no-rinse sanitiser? If you are successfully making kit brews and using tap water to make up the volume there is not much point. You are adding tap water anyway, so why not rinse with it. Of course if your tap water is contaminated with microbes to the point it affects your beers, that is another issue.

edit: sp.


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/16)

The temp ( from memory ) for Sodium-Perc is about 60-70* for the water temp


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## tumi2 (22/9/16)

Hi all
I just recieved 1kg of 100% sodium perc but it does not have any dillution info on the pack. How many grams per liter should i use.
Thanks


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## Robbo2234 (22/9/16)

Update I have been using phosphoric acid in the last 4 batches haven't had a problem yet! Thanks for the recommendations


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## sp0rk (22/9/16)

I use about a tablespoon in 5L




mikec said:


> Met is fine but you are rinsing after, correct? No longer sanitised.


I was talking to a mate who is an engineer in a water treatment station
He claims in modern housing/systems with PEX pipes, etc, the water SHOULD be sterile, so rinsing after shouldn't affect sterility
Old lead/clay/etc pipes however may still have bacteria ingress from poor joins


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (22/9/16)

Percarbonate dosage is temperature dependent; I use 10 g/l @ 60 degrees, more if colder, less if hotter.

A couple of corrections of things written above:

The active ingredient in Starsan is the surfactant, not the phosphoric acid. The acid is there to keep the surfactant pH below 3, at this pH the surfactant dissolves the cell wall lipids so the technical term is "membrane disrupter".

SMBS is not a good sanitiser: many wild yeasts are very resistant to it.

Those who use PAA: where do you buy it? I've asked Grain and Grape but got a blank look.


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## kaiserben (22/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> A couple of corrections of things written above:
> 
> The active ingredient in Starsan is the surfactant, not the phosphoric acid. The acid is there to keep the surfactant pH below 3, at this pH the surfactant dissolves the cell wall lipids so the technical term is "membrane disrupter".


Keg King has a "Phosphoric Acid blend", whcih is 50% phosphoric acid and 15% dodecylbenzene sulfonic acid (which causes the foam). Dunno what the other 35% is?? 

But you can also get "Pure" Phosphoric Acid, which is 96% phosphoric and 4% filtered water. And according to Keg King this "can be used as a non-foaming non-rinse sanitiser when diluted with water to a concentration of 1ml/2Litres." Seemingly there's no surfactant in the pure phosphoric.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (22/9/16)

kaiserben said:


> Keg King has a "Phosphoric Acid blend", whcih is 50% phosphoric acid and 15% dodecylbenzene sulfonic acid (which causes the foam). Dunno what the other 35% is??
> 
> But you can also get "Pure" Phosphoric Acid, which is 96% phosphoric and 4% filtered water. And according to Keg King this "can be used as a non-foaming non-rinse sanitiser when diluted with water to a concentration of 1ml/2Litres." Seemingly there's no surfactant in the pure phosphoric.


The DBS is the active ingredient, as stated above it acts as a membrane disrupter at low pH. The other 35% will be water.

Phosphoric is routinely used as a cleaner, especially in bright beer tanks where you can't use caustic (due to the CO2). I've never allowed its use as a non rinse, I always made the cellar follow up with PAA.

I know others have different experience, when told by someone they use phosphoric as a sanitiser and haven't had an infection I add one word: "yet".


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## kaiserben (22/9/16)

I'm just going off the product description from Keg King (I've not used "pure" phosphoric as a sanitiser myself, but I did buy some which I plan to use as a sparge acidifier). 

Here's the link to the product: LINKhttp://kegking.com.au/cleaners-and-sanitising-equipment/pure-phosphoric-acid-96-pure-300ml.html 



> Phosphoric acid (AKA orthophosphoric acid or H3PO4PE388) is a mineral inorganic acid.
> The pure phosphoric acid can be used as a non-foaming non-rinse sanitiser when diluted with water to a concentration of 1ml/2Litres. Phosphoric acid is excellent at passifying stainless.
> Phosphoric acid is also great for adjusting PH of sparge water.
> Phosphoric acid can be completely metabolised by yeast and will act as a yeast nutrient if it ends up on your fermenter.


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## tugger (22/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Percarbonate dosage is temperature dependent; I use 10 g/l @ 60 degrees, more if colder, less if hotter.
> 
> A couple of corrections of things written above:
> 
> ...


Sopura chemicals sell paa as sopuroxide 
Ecolabs sell it as vortex 
The smallest container I can get is 20L.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (22/9/16)

kaiserben said:


> I'm just going off the product description from Keg King (I've not used "pure" phosphoric as a sanitiser myself, but I did buy some which I plan to use as a sparge acidifier).
> 
> Here's the link to the product: LINKhttp://kegking.com.au/cleaners-and-sanitising-equipment/pure-phosphoric-acid-96-pure-300ml.html


Sorry if you thought I was sniping at you, I wasn't.

IMO the Keg King description can be taken as a recommendation to use phosphoric as a sanitiser. This qualifies as bad advice in my book.


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## kaiserben (22/9/16)

Not at all. No worries. I reckon I'll take your advice and stick with the acid blend foaming stuff for the sanitiser (and only use the "pure" stuff for a sparge acidifier).


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## malt junkie (22/9/16)

If all else fails 5 drops of sweat from the breast of a virgin bride on the morning of her wedding.....

good luck finding one though

Just use Starsan or similar, simples


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## mikec (22/9/16)

Starsan.
It's not expensive because it lasts FOREVER.
1.5ml per litre of cold water.


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## wildburkey (22/9/16)

I've been using Brewmans BBW for cleaning and his Acid Sanitiser for sterilising with no issues thus far. I also use his PSR for cleaning old bottles and plastic fermenters that I suspect may have had infection and they have been fine too. Prob not the cheapest option as I have to ship to Tasmania but I have had a great experience using the brewbuilder and ordering through his store.


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## wide eyed and legless (22/9/16)

Here's what I use.
https://cyndan.com.au/en/cip-cleaners/280-proxitane-peroxy-acetic-acid-non-rinse-sanitiser.html


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## MrTwalky (22/9/16)

Hydrogen Peroxide. If you're careful handling acids (glasses/gloves/mask) then you'll be fine and it will save you money. We had 15L cubes of the stuff when I was working in a brewery. It's the sanitiser you find in some of those no rinse premixed bottles at your LHBS.

Pro tip: UV light reduces it's effectiveness. The 15L cubes it comes in are black. I have a spray bottle covered in duct tape, which I change regularly.


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## shacked (22/9/16)

+1 for Star san

I use sodium perc to clean until I run out. Then switch to PBW. Then back to sodium perc. 

I had a good reason for doing that... I think...


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (22/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Those who use PAA: where do you buy it?


To answer my own question: I had a poke around and it doesn't look too hard to make, the simplest method uses peroxide and acetic acid with sulphuric acid as a catalyst.

Won't be going the acetic anhydride / 90% peroxide route though:



> In the preparation of peracetic acid from acetic anhydride and H2O2, the dangerously explosive diacetyl peroxide may become the major product if the reaction is not carried out properly.1a


Quote from http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/047084289X.rp034/abstract;jsessionid=0EB0538598E1C2227309608C71FB459F.f04t02


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## malt junkie (22/9/16)

LC between you and MB trying to teach us *"How to blow shit up with your home brew gear"* it's a wonder this site hasn't been flagged by the Feds and several foreign Intelligence agencies.

Then again all those paranoid brewers already know they're watch us?!!? h34r:


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## barls (22/9/16)

malt junkie said:


> LC between you and MB trying to teach us *"How to blow shit up with your home brew gear"* it's a wonder this site hasn't been flagged by the Feds and several foreign Intelligence agencies.
> 
> Then again all those paranoid brewers already know they're watch us?!!? h34r:


only watching some of us, and for good reason mate.


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## malt junkie (22/9/16)

Crap!! Those reading glasses I got really do work. Pity I didn't use them when I posted that!!! All those MB's out there, it wan't you, it MHB that other crazy science guy.


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## dicko (22/9/16)

And....when all the above fails, we may even just use......wait for it........Boiling Water!!!


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## DJR (22/9/16)

keg king starsan knockoff here 75% of the time, 25% of the time i use some Iodophor i have had kicking around for far too long. I'd honestly just use the starsan all the time, i only use the iodophor to finish it off as i bought a lot of it a long time ago.

Between the two of them and pitching known good quantities of viable yeast i don't have issues.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/9/16)

MrTwalky said:


> Hydrogen Peroxide. If you're careful handling acids (glasses/gloves/mask) then you'll be fine and it will save you money. We had 15L cubes of the stuff when I was working in a brewery. It's the sanitiser you find in some of those no rinse premixed bottles at your LHBS.
> 
> Pro tip: UV light reduces it's effectiveness. The 15L cubes it comes in are black. I have a spray bottle covered in duct tape, which I change regularly.


I used to get really strong peroxide in 5ltr bottles. Its fun stuff. Had to have a vented cap and kept in the fridge. Turns your fingers white,


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## drsmurto (23/9/16)

OT - i use piranha solution regularly in the lab. Great for cleaning the glassware. Can get a little frisky if there's too much organic material present. Conc sulfuric acid and 30-50% hydrogen peroxide. Fun stuff. 

Hydrogen peroxide doesn't work by releasing free oxygen as oxygen doesn't react with organic molecules. The active compounds are superoxide radicals and/or the highly reactive hydroxide radical.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

I use peroxide at the opposite end of the pH spectrum: alkaline peroxide etchant (1M H2O2 + 1M NaOH) is one of the few things that works on titanium.

Back in the 80's we used to use chromate + sulphuric as the glass cleaning solution. It's still recommended for use when de-smutting etched stainless but it poses disposal difficulties as it's corrosive, reactive, toxic and carcinogenic.


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## drsmurto (23/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I use peroxide at the opposite end of the pH spectrum: alkaline peroxide etchant (1M H2O2 + 1M NaOH) is one of the few things that works on titanium.
> 
> Back in the 80's we used to use chromate + sulphuric as the glass cleaning solution. It's still recommended for use when de-smutting etched stainless but it poses disposal difficulties as it's corrosive, reactive, toxic and carcinogenic.


OT - that's quite dilute for etching.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (23/9/16)

Actually it's lower than I said: 1M H2O2 + 0.5M NaOH. It's very slow at room temp but works in about 20 minutes at 60 C.


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## peteru (23/9/16)

The last time I saw someone suggesting the use of piranha solution on a forum (as a joke), they almost got banned. Apparently the mods thought that there were people stupid enough to do a quick Google around and mix it up without realising just how violent it can be.


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