# Braumeister vs 3V: pros and cons



## lswhi3 (27/7/14)

What are people's thoughts on using a braumeister vs. using a 3V brew rig? 
After doing a few searches on this forum, I could find a similar topic, so hopefully I'm not duplicating a previous topic.
Would appreciate your opinions! 
Cheers,
Luke.


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## idzy (27/7/14)

The main advantage of Brau is size. It comes as one unit, nice neat package and very well engineered. You pay for it though. 

Main advantage of 3v is output quantity, also grain bill can be larger comparatively. Can be cheaper than a Brau.


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## dicko (27/7/14)

I have a 20 litre BM and the only problem that I see is the capacity of the malt pipe only allowing a beer of around 1065 gravity before having to add sugar or other adjuncts to get a stronger beer.
There are ways around this that I wont go into here but you can easily get the info if you search around.

After having had a 3v Herms system I would never go back.

The repeatability, the accurate mash schedules, the not having to watch the process leaving you to do other things while brewing, the fact that you don't have hoses and connections that create a mess and have to be swapped from vessel to vessel during the brew day, the small space that the BM will occupy and last but not least, the ease of cleaning when compared to the 3v all go to make the BM a very attractive proposition.

Some argue the price factor but many like myself started out small and built up my 3v and if I personally totalled what I spent to build a reasonable 3v sytem over the period then the choice of a Braumeister would have been a " no brainer"

I'll just run out now and get my flame suit ready as I have a feeling that I may need it.


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## lswhi3 (27/7/14)

Think it would be possible to siphon off some of the wort from the brau during the sparge in order to increase the batch size, and then readd to the brau for the boil? 

I've heard that it's possible to just use half your grain in one mash, and use the same wort you've collected on the other half of the grain in orser to increase OG. but I'm not sure whether this would have an effect on pH. If your using water that's at 5.5, and once you've added the grain it's at 3.5, would it matter if you added more grain after the mash? I haven't done a pH test on the wort post-mash so wouldn't know. Thoughts on this being good idea? 
And anyone know what your max OG would be using a brau? Would, say, an Imperial IPA still be possible?

And I've heard some criticism that using a brau detracts from the art of the brew... But I don't really know how substantiated this is, just sounds like purism.


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## dicko (27/7/14)

If yo brew Imperial Ipa's each brew then I wouldn' t get one.
I can do a 1065 og Ipa in mine without extending the boil or double sparging but just by using the machine as it was intended.
On a side note, most of the big beers that people do are the likes of Belgians and most recipes call for the use of candy sugar or you can just use dextrose or sugar to boost the og in an Ipa.

If I wanted to brew a "bigger" beer I would just boil for longer and have a bit less volume.


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## Bribie G (27/7/14)

Full size BIAB in an urn is similar in concept to the BM (the Braumeister was the inspiration of the initial BIAB "researchers" ) but enables stronger beers to be produced as there's just a bit more mash space available. I can produce the same beer time and time again with little difficulty, but the process is a bit more demanding than the BM as you can't set and forget.

On the other hand it's very easy, basically three hours of boredom punctuated by brief bursts of activity. I even go out shopping while the mash is on.

I've been to quite a few 3V brewdays and find them quite amusing in some ways, poor guys dashing around, busier than a one armed painter with the crabs. Of course I bite my tongue B)

If you want programmability and have the $$$ then HERMS would be good, but even so I have had at least 2 HERMS brewers say that if they had their time over they would have just bought an urn.

ed: and it's not just about the beer - some guys like to race Toranas, other guys like to restore and rebuild and pimp them. As you'll see from this forum there are heaps of guys who just love to play with heat exchengers, arduinos, pids etc. I don't even know what a pid is :blink: except it rhymes with squid.

Anyway off to brew, it's Sunday :beerbang:


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## Kranky (27/7/14)

Do both. The Braumeister is great for the smaller abv beers but not so great for the higher abv beers. 

I tried double sparging but my efficiency was shit so I just incorporated my Braumeister into a 3v HERMS set up. 

Best of both worlds.


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## professional_drunk (27/7/14)

I've recently bought a 20L braumeister. The deciding factors were:

Significantly reduces the amount of DIY projects you need to do.
I brew in an apartment and a small footprint is essential both at brewtime and storage afterwards
I'm busy and do enough cleaning as it is. Braumeister requires less cleaning.
One of the beers that I really want to get into is Doppelbocks. They're at around 1.080. I bought the short malt pipe and plan on doing a half batch and boiling it while I mash in a full batch and combine them at the final boil.


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## Nibbo (27/7/14)

I have a 3V system at home in the shed and I've also got the 50 Litre Braumeister in the shop I use from time to time.

My 3V system is very hands on. The Brau is set and forget.
My 3V I can brew up big gravity beers relatively easy. The Brau is more restricting.
My 3V I have to manually adjust the temps for each step for the mash. The Brau you just punch in the numbers...although I have done this incorrectly more times than I like to admit and it doesn't do any good for the beer.
My 3V I can get a big rolling boil with my burner set on low. The Brau is lacking the good rolling boil.
Clean up is a bitch with the 3V. The Brau is very easy to clean up.

Each has their pro's on cons. 
I like the 3V being hands on at home but I also like the Brau is set and forget when I'm in the shop.
I like my 3V system better but it takes up a lot of time to brew on that I currently don't have (I haven't used it in 12 months).


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## pnorkle (27/7/14)

professional_drunk said:


> One of the beers that I really want to get into is Doppelbocks. They're at around 1.080. I bought the short malt pipe and plan on doing a half batch and boiling it while I mash in a full batch and combine them at the final boil.


Sorry to get OT for a second, but - short malt pipe for 20l Brau? Didn't know you could get them, only short pipe for 50l?


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## lswhi3 (27/7/14)

Kranky, so you're suggesting using the brau for the mash and then doing the usual 3V sparge where you drain the wort from the mashtun (in this case the brau) into your pot while sparging into the brau? and this gives you a high eff and OG? Sounds excellent


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## professional_drunk (27/7/14)

pnorkle said:


> Sorry to get OT for a second, but - short malt pipe for 20l Brau? Didn't know you could get them, only short pipe for 50l?


That's right. I got it from G&G.



Nibbo said:


> My 3V I can get a big rolling boil with my burner set on low. The Brau is lacking the good rolling boil.


Disagree with this one. I got the thermo jacket and hood and I need to skim off the foam because I get boilovers from a very vigorous boil.


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## Nibbo (27/7/14)

professional_drunk said:


> Disagree with this one. I got the thermo jacket and hood and I need to skim off the foam because I get boilovers from a very vigorous boil.


I agree the hood would make a huge difference. 
Only offering what I experience with my setups. Both my systems do not use hoods.


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## danestead (27/7/14)

dicko said:


> I have a 20 litre BM and the only problem that I see is the capacity of the malt pipe only allowing a beer of around 1065 gravity before having to add sugar or other adjuncts to get a stronger beer.
> There are ways around this that I wont go into here but you can easily get the info if you search around.
> After having had a 3v Herms system I would never go back.
> The repeatability, the accurate mash schedules, the not having to watch the process leaving you to do other things while brewing, the fact that you don't have hoses and connections that create a mess and have to be swapped from vessel to vessel during the brew day, the small space that the BM will occupy and last but not least, the ease of cleaning when compared to the 3v all go to make the BM a very attractive proposition.
> ...


Spot on. Exactly my comments also. I have the 20L and have done and watched numerous brews on my mates 3V and I agree.


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## Kranky (27/7/14)

Luke1992 said:


> Kranky, so you're suggesting using the brau for the mash and then doing the usual 3V sparge where you drain the wort from the mashtun (in this case the brau) into your pot while sparging into the brau? and this gives you a high eff and OG? Sounds excellent


I had a 3V system before I got my Braumeister but I didn't sell my original gear when I got the BM. 

I use the BM as a HLT to get the water to temperature then transfer it to my MT (76L Blichmann - middle vessel in the photo). I transfer the sparge water into my original HLT (on the right in the photo) and keep it heated with an over the side heating element (it's on a different circuit).

I then put about 30 odd litres of hot water from my hot tap into the BM and heat it to my mash temp. I put my 50ft chiller coil in the BM, hook up a pump to it and the MT and run it as a HERMS.

When the mash is finished I drain the water out of the BM (I use the water for cleaning) and then transfer the wort to the BM and either fly sparge or batch sparge with the water from my original HLT. Then just boil as per usual.


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## Batz (27/7/14)

Dicko is on the money there, I have a 50lt Braumeister which replaced my very nice 3V, I would never go back.
The Braumeister is not for everyone, but everyone who owns a Braumeister loves it.

Batz


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## Eagleburger (27/7/14)

do the BM get stuck sparges as easy as a conventional mash tun?


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## RobB (27/7/14)

Batz said:


> ......The Braumeister is not for everyone, but everyone who owns a Braumeister loves it.
> 
> Batz


I have noticed on this and other forums that while everyone grizzles about the price of a BM, there seems to be a total absence of buyer's remorse from those who have them.


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## lael (27/7/14)

or you could build one.  I definitely agree about simplicity and ease of use. I went straight to building a clone, and love both of them.


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## Crouch (27/7/14)

The amount of time (not necessarily money), but time I've spent stuffing around trying to get my electric 3V HERMS system setup has been a little tedious ... for that alone buying a BM would have saved me loads of money in time alone. I've never used a BM, but from all the BM v 3V chatter I've read about, everyone loves them. I'd consider looking at a 50L BM in the future to run along side my 3V


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## Kranky (27/7/14)

Eagleburger said:


> do the BM get stuck sparges as easy as a conventional mash tun?


No they don't. The grains are contained in a malt pipe that are simply lifted out of the vessel in a very similar manner to a BIAB setup. If you mill your grains too fine you will get wort fountains shooting out the top though.

As far as the price of a BM goes, yeah, they aren't cheap as far as home brewing equipment goes but compare them to other hobbies like boats or cars and they don't seem too bad. The BM is easily one of the best things I've ever bought.


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## Batz (27/7/14)

Kranky said:


> As far as the price of a BM goes, yeah, they aren't cheap as far as home brewing equipment goes but compare them to other hobbies like boats or cars and they don't seem too bad. The BM is easily one of the best things I've ever bought.


That's how I see it too, if you find an interest, hobby or sport you'll end up spending my money on it. What do people spend on golf, cycling, photography, etc?

I love brewing as much as I love drinking my beer, my 50lt cost me plenty but that was 3 years ago and I would have only spent the money on something else right? They are a big investment but one I'm very pleased I made.

Batz


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## surly (27/7/14)

I was seriously considering forking out for a BM a few months ago.
I am not interested in brewing really high grav beers, so it seemed like a great option. However, I have a lot of space (currently) and other expensive hobbies (photography, snowboarding). 
I also like to plan stuff and tinker a bit. Because of all this, I ended up making a HERMS 2V +HEX. Only used once and had rubbish efficiency, so more fiddling to do, but it was fun and I am happy.
Also, cost me less than a third of a 20L BM.

A few years down the track I can easily see myself getting a BM though. Very cool bit of kit and not really all THAT expensive when you consider it's quality and functionality.

For the record, my sister and parents have been into horses for years. If they saved all that money, they would fully own a second house by now. 
Buy a BM. Buy a jacketed conical fermenter or 2. Buy a 6 tap font. Set up a yeast lab. Brew weekly. You will still be better off than the sap with 2 horses, probably healthier too.


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## seamad (27/7/14)

I've moved from a single vessel system ( single batch brauclone) to a double batch 3V RIMS. With the 3V I start a second mash whilst the first is boiling, saving some time on a brew day. Once it's up and running I don't need to constantly supervise, alarms on the PIDs let me know when mashout done etc. It has taken a fair amount of time to get it all running smoothly though.Cost wise probably not a lot in it, never bothered to work it out. Clean up takes a little longer, not a lot though as a braumeister is still really 2 vessels ( + filter plates etc).


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## Batz (27/7/14)

This was my 3v with HERMS, I still had it for a while when I bought the Braumeister in case I'd made a mistake. The 3V was a great rig and worked a treat, I loved building it as well, but I was never happy and I was always spending money tinkering with it.

There will be a BM cheaper option on the market one day soon, it's gotta happen.

Batz


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## barneey (27/7/14)

I`ve owned numerous 3V systems from 20 to 100 litre systems. I then bought a 20 litre BM & made a 20 litre BM Clone. (both now sold on)

For me, when brewing smaller batches a 20 litre BM wins every time over a 3V system mainly for its easy of use.

The only thing I would suggest to anyone thinking of buying a BM is to spend the extra money and buy a 50 litre unit with an additional 20 litre malt pipe.

Anything larger than 50 litre, a 3V system wins basically down to cost and easy of use (hoists on the BM unit).

Currently building a 50 litre unit, the 3V 100 litre system, only gets used once a year at Green Hop time.


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## thedragon (27/7/14)

I've got a BM 20L and love it. It is the best piece of brewing equipment that I have.

Pros:
- compact size, easy to store out in an out of the way place
- repeat-ability of brewing process as you can dial in temperatures and times for the mash and boil
- ease of brewing meaning that I can get more jobs around the house done while brewing
- easy to clean

Cons:
- cost (when compared to a two pot BIAB)
- the user interface is a little basic, but it does the job

I do often wonder if I'd have been better off getting the 50L, however it's so easy to use I genuinely don't mind doing smaller batches more often.


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## Blind Dog (27/7/14)

Reading the BIAB threads here and elsewhere is what convinced me to move to AG and the BM is really just BIAB made really easy with a lot more bling than my $19 Big W pot. I have a 20L BM now and regularly knock out 2 brews in 1 day and occasionally 3. But the beers are no better than I could brew with BIAB, just easier.

It does throw off steam, but no sticky residues for me after 100 + brews on it. Cleaning is a hose down inside after use and then brewers detergent (sodium meta something?) in 10l of water with heater and pump on for 30 min at 50C at the end of the day. Easy as.

Would love to have the 50L but was quoted silly money to upgrade a circuit in the house to take it; one day I'll try a reiterated mash to brew a RIS but for now happy with a 1060ish upper OG limit from the 20L. 

Also love loads of the systems on here and reckon some if not most are sheer genius, but I haven't the foggiest what they're talking about with their PIDs and whatnots. Hence the BM


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## lswhi3 (31/7/14)

I decided to go with a $500 20L DIY braumeister. 
However, I'm looking to incorporate this into a 3V set up in order to get the best of both worlds, particularly because I like brewing big beers, and so would need to push the OG past 1060 sometimes. 
I was wondering if anyone could explain to me how you could do this, and what the possible pros and cons would be.
At the moment it looks like I would do this by increasing the temp to 75C after the mash, slightly open the ball valve and sparging into a boiler using water preheated to 85C, just as you would in a regular 3V system.


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## dicko (1/8/14)

Luke1992 said:


> I decided to go with a $500 20L DIY braumeister.
> However, I'm looking to incorporate this into a 3V set up in order to get the best of both worlds, particularly because I like brewing big beers, and so would need to push the OG past 1060 sometimes.
> I was wondering if anyone could explain to me how you could do this, and what the possible pros and cons would be.
> At the moment it looks like I would do this by increasing the temp to 75C after the mash, slightly open the ball valve and sparging into a boiler using water preheated to 85C, just as you would in a regular 3V system.


If you are going to build one then build it to do the bigger beers


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## mckenry (1/8/14)

I have a 3V herms. I enjoy using it. I flick switches and push buttons and open and close valves. Its fun. Its hands on.
The BM is great for exact repeatability and auto set and forget brewing.

I have a 4 speed manual V8 classic car with no power steering and no air con. I also have a 4 speed auto with all the mod cons, that beep at me, tell me when to turn left, shows me whats behind me, keeps me at exactly 21.5° no matter the weather outside etc.

No need to ask me which is easier to drive.
No need to ask which one is more fun though!!


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## GalBrew (1/8/14)

I have a 3v HERMS system that took a lot of time and cash to put together. On brew days I am running around like a headless chicken trying to run the system. It takes ages to clean and takes up a lot of room. It is a massive PITA and I wish I just bought a 50L BM.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (1/8/14)

I get the price/ease arguments. But what do people have to suggest a newer brewer say doing BIAB who wants to be able to recirculate and sparge whilst learning these processes along the way. Would a BM teach the same lessons or does the automation side insulate a newbie from the niches found when doing such on a 3V?


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## mckenry (1/8/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> I get the price/ease arguments. But what do people have to suggest a newer brewer say doing BIAB who wants to be able to recirculate and sparge whilst learning these processes along the way. Would a BM teach the same lessons or does the automation side insulate a newbie from the niches found when doing such on a 3V?


The BM will allow you to follow a recipe, step times, mash temps, boil etc without knowing much more than how to press buttons. (Simplistic I know, but basically with a set of instructions you could do it). With a 3V, you really need to understand where water goes at what temp and why, how long you need to heat to get to strike / sparge temp.
Its my belief you will get better beer from a BM with limited brewing knowledge compared to labour intense rigs.
You can still F up on a BM though. Just harder to do.


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## Grainer (1/8/14)

Do you want high gravity beers or not? thats the first question.... I love big stouts and hands on ... so 3V was the only way to go..


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## Batz (1/8/14)

Grainer said:


> Do you want high gravity beers or not? thats the first question.... I love big stouts and hands on ... so 3V was the only way to go..


What percentage do you like you stouts Grainer?


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## Crusty (1/8/14)

I'm not fussed on high gravity beers so the 50lt BM was the perfect choice for me. If for any reason I want to push the gravity boundary, a smaller batch will just have to do. I've had several brew rigs & without a doubt, the BM is the best thus far. It's simple to use, makes awesome beers & I know I can repeat the same beer time & time again. I think the BM is what everyone tries to emulate with their own builds & a BM inspired system seems to be the bench mark for us home brewers. They do cost a lot of coin & you can certainly make something similar for a lot less but lets be honest, who doesn't want something straight out of the box that can control mash temps, do multiple step mashes & sound an alarm when it's time to add the hops. The damn thing even tells you to enjoy your brew after you've finished boiling.
It's a big investment but one you certainly won't regret.


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## Grainer (1/8/14)

Last stout i did was a russian imperial stout aged on whiskey oak and one on burbon oak....YUMMMMMMMY!!

that one was 10.8%


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## Grainer (1/8/14)

mind u if i had my chance over again id redesign my brewery to a blended electric and gas system..mind u i have used a braumeister and they are great.. cause the clean up on a 4v is a biatch !


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## Adr_0 (1/8/14)

Batz said:


> What percentage do you like you stouts Grainer?


I get the feeling there is some bait being dangled here... 

Back on topic, are there any brewers you can get to nearby where you can try a 3V, BIAB and Braumeister? Learning is a funny thing. I am a perfectionist, fiddly and geek (being a chemical engineer) but love simplicity.

I'm glad I've done 3V (three tier and two tier) in the past to learn from it. I suspect if I had bought a BM I would be adding another vessel "just to see". I would only go back to 3V if capacity became an issue, as there is a pot you can do with a $9 20L bucket.


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## Batz (1/8/14)

OK 10.8% would be pushing it with a BM, luckily I'm not interested in beers with that sort of alcohol.

Batz


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## Grainer (1/8/14)

LOL


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## Grainer (1/8/14)

Luke1992 where are you located??? there are a few different systems around my area in Melbourne..


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## DJ_L3ThAL (1/8/14)

mckenry said:


> The BM will allow you to follow a recipe, step times, mash temps, boil etc without knowing much more than how to press buttons. (Simplistic I know, but basically with a set of instructions you could do it). With a 3V, you really need to understand where water goes at what temp and why, how long you need to heat to get to strike / sparge temp.
> Its my belief you will get better beer from a BM with limited brewing knowledge compared to labour intense rigs.
> You can still F up on a BM though. Just harder to do.


Yep so my suspicions were correct for myself. I love tinkering and I aspire to understand the full brewing process (one day). Therefore wouldnt want to miss out on knowledge thats not required with a BM.

I BIAB so looks like a natural step would be a small urn and an esky to mash in to really expand my knowledge whilst getting double batches (near enough) out of my keggle. Maybe a pump too.


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## boybrewer (1/8/14)

If you like to tinker , be hands on and have the space a 3 V is the way to go . If you are all thumbs when it comes to building projects and have limited space then the BM is the way to go . Me I like to play , my system is a 2V herms and it has taken me nearly a year of brewing on it to get to the repeatability stage . It has been a great adventure so far for me .I love it .


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## Blind Dog (1/8/14)

beer belly said:


> If you like to tinker , be hands on and have the space a 3 V is the way to go . If you are all thumbs when it comes to building projects and have limited space then the BM is the way to go . Me I like to play , my system is a 2V herms and it has taken me nearly a year of brewing on it to get to the repeatability stage . It has been a great adventure so far for me .I love it .


That and time; not just the time to brew and clean up, but the time it takes to learn how to put something together with all the bells and whistles without killing yourself in the process.


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## boybrewer (1/8/14)

Blind Dog said:


> That and time; not just the time to brew and clean up, but the time it takes to learn how to put something together with all the bells and whistles without killing yourself in the process.


That is why I went the 2V single tier and herms system so I didn't have to lift , fetch and carry and it makes the job just that little bit easier on the back . My original brew stand was a burner on a keggle and a mash tun . It was a pita , lifting filling and re-filling as I needed .


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## Adr_0 (1/8/14)

beer belly said:


> That is why I went the 2V single tier and herms system so I didn't have to lift , fetch and carry and it makes the job just that little bit easier on the back . My original brew stand was a burner on a keggle and a mash tun . It was a pita , lifting filling and re-filling as I needed .


Yep, me too.

I'm not sure I'd recommend 2V to someone starting to be honest, as it needs some previous experience IMO to properly understand how to get the most out of it.

3V I also struggle to recommend unless you are ok with a very long time until your first beer building things as well as some $$ and investment in new tools, etc.

BIAB or BM will get you a beer a lot faster. In the case of BIAB you can move a mash to an esky for e.g. and learn all there is to learn about a separate mash and sparging; or you can throw a HLT/kettle and 20L bucket next to a Braumeister (after a few brews) and increase hte batch volume or OG.

So it really does depend on your personality... and budget.


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## boybrewer (1/8/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Yep, me too.
> 
> I'm not sure I'd recommend 2V to someone starting to be honest, as it needs some previous experience IMO to properly understand how to get the most out of it.
> 
> ...


I agree with the 2V and 3V . As it was it took a lot of experimenting and experience to get to where I am today with all the tinkering , like around three years from kits to kits and kilos , to all grain . My second brew stand was a three tier gravity fed system and then I purchased a pump and now I have a single tier system where I can sit and watch and enjoy the process of making and drinking at the same time . Budget wise I have been lucky as it has only cost me around $800 to go from single burner and mash tun to what I have now . It's not for everyone and that is why the BM was invented .


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## Batz (1/8/14)

I don't believe anyone would buy a BM, or own a BM and be able to brew multiple brews without a full understanding of the process. Some of you must think BM's are some kind a white mans magic.

Batz


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## boybrewer (1/8/14)

Batz said:


> I don't believe anyone would buy a BM, or own a BM and be able to brew multiple brews without a full understanding of the process. Some of you must think BM's are some kind a white mans magic.
> 
> Batz


Your right there Batz . I believe it is a natural progression .


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## Adr_0 (1/8/14)

Batz said:


> I don't believe anyone would buy a BM, or own a BM and be able to brew multiple brews without a full understanding of the process. Some of you must think BM's are some kind a white mans magic.
> 
> Batz


well, everyone sells it as though you just press a button, wait for the BING! and you have delicious delicious beer. are you telling me you have to crack your grain, stir your mash AND choke back your drain hose yourself?

in all seriousness, I was going to suggest you could _probably_ program it certain ways or shorten/lengthen/skip steps if you want to learn the impact of different stages. I just don't know it well enough to say that with any shred of accuracy... you can also still play with grain crushes, water, and of course recipes...


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## thedragon (1/8/14)

Batz said:


> I don't believe anyone would buy a BM, or own a BM and be able to brew multiple brews without a full understanding of the process. Some of you must think BM's are some kind a white mans magic.
> 
> Batz


You're spot on Batz. Brewing using a BM is brewing.... just with less time spent on doing the shit bits like cleaning and waiting around to monitor and control temperature.


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## Batz (1/8/14)

I'm brewing tomorrow, I have cracked my grain and filled my BM with water.
Later tonight I'll press start, tomorrow I will wake to two kegs of Sasion carbed and ready to drink in the fridge. Oh I did put the yeast next to the BM as last time it picked the wrong one from the fridge.....stupid BM!

Batz


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## Grainer (1/8/14)

oh another note..took me 6 months to build my 4v from scratch.. BM you could be brewing tomorrow !!... They are great systems.. looking back my rig all up inc. all accessories cost more than a BM !! - but i loved building it and it looks SOOOOOO SEXY B)


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## boybrewer (1/8/14)

Adr_0 said:


> well, everyone sells it as though you just press a button, wait for the BING! and you have delicious delicious beer. are you telling me you have to crack your grain, stir your mash AND choke back your drain hose yourself?
> 
> in all seriousness, I was going to suggest you could _probably_ program it certain ways or shorten/lengthen/skip steps if you want to learn the impact of different stages. I just don't know it well enough to say that with any shred of accuracy... you can also still play with grain crushes, water, and of course recipe .


I agree , but you still have to understand the process and it is a natural progression of this process . Anyone can read a recipe but if you don't understand how its made then the end result will be either good or bad depending on your luck . I have seen the end result of people using a 3V system with no idea of the process and turning out a product that is ok and them thinking if I buy a BM , my end result will be an award winning product , its not that simple


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## Grainer (1/8/14)

At the end of the day it us what u want out of it.. try al they systems at peoples houses (thats what I did).. figure out your budget cause it will be about $300-1000 more than what you think .. 

At the moment there are BM, 2V, 3V, 4V and BIAB all producing award winning beers... 

This is my system


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## boybrewer (1/8/14)

Grainer said:


> oh another note..took me 6 months to build my 4v from scratch.. BM you could be brewing tomorrow !!... They are great systems.. looking back my rig all up inc. all accessories cost more than a BM !! - nut i loved building it and it looks SOOOOOO SEXY B)


It took me 6 minutes to build my 2V and herms lol and it is still very sexy . Oh I just mounted my extra pump today its a LBP which will enable me to recirculate the sparge water with the mash wort at the same time without having to drain the mash tun and refill . The brew stand is 1200 cm long and it fits in the boot of the car . Great for ease of transportation .


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## Grainer (1/8/14)

if u got a truck..i can transport mine LOL..oh another advantage of a BM unless u go the 50L one !


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## boybrewer (1/8/14)

Grainer said:


> if u got a truck..i can transport mine LOL..oh another advantage of a BM unless u go the 50L one !


That is why I built this system


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## mje1980 (1/8/14)

The only difference for me technique wise going to biab from 3v was I spent a lot less trips with a bucket from the hlt to the esky tun. The steps are the same. Mash, seperate the grain from the wort ( drain the bag, or sparge ), and boil. I had a 3v for 10 years, i wish I did biab 10 years ago.


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## Grainer (1/8/14)

that fits in the boot of your car?? what do you have a Mac truck car?


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## boybrewer (1/8/14)

Grainer said:


> that fits in the boot of your car?? what do you have a Mac truck car?


Believe it or not I have an old VL . The pots fit on the back seat .


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## lael (1/8/14)

If you build a brau clone you can build it to do High Grav. My large one will hold up to 18Kg of grain, and I can do a ridiculous batch size in it (up to roughly 100L of around 1040). I do appx 30L (around 28) of Quaddruppel in the smaller malt pipe with 10kg of malt.

Fits in the back of the hatch with a seat down. Using it now for sous vide chuck steak at the moment. Can't wait. I am super happy with it!

And honestly... I don't think learning to swap hoses or calculate infusions etc is 'real' brewing knowledge that 'should' be gained. Whatever system you use you will need to learn its in and outs. Having a programmable controller simply makes the mechanical steps of brewing simple. My next brewery will be fully automated


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## boybrewer (1/8/14)

lael said:


> If you build a brau clone you can build it to do High Grav. My large one will hold up to 18Kg of grain, and I can do a ridiculous batch size in it (up to roughly 100L of around 1040). I do appx 30L (around 28) of Quaddruppel in the smaller malt pipe with 10kg of malt.
> 
> Fits in the back of the hatch with a seat down. Using it now for sous vide chuck steak at the moment. Can't wait. I am super happy with it!
> 
> And honestly... I don't think learning to swap hoses or calculate infusions etc is 'real' brewing knowledge that 'should' be gained. Whatever system you use you will need to learn its in and outs. Having a programmable controller simply makes the mechanical steps of brewing simple. My next brewery will be fully automated


That's fine but you still need to understand the process behind making a beer and a drinkable that will leave you wanting for more .


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## Blind Dog (1/8/14)

beer belly said:


> That's fine but you still need to understand the process behind making a beer and a drinkable that will leave you wanting for more .


Totally agree. I can't make better beer now than i did a year ago because I have a BM not a pot and a bag, but because I've read more, experimented more, learnt more, brewed more beer and tried to learn from what I stuffed up. Understanding why a beer is sh*t or awesome is everything and that means you have to understand the process. If you dont understand the process I can't see how you can understand how to apply that process on your system.


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## Batz (1/8/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Totally agree. I can't make better beer now than i did a year ago because I have a BM


But you can make the same beer constantly.

On my 3V this was almost imposable, it's very difficult to improve a beer if you can't have a start point. Now I can reproduce a beer that I have brewed that will be exactly the same.
To newer brewers this perhaps does not sound important, but it will.
Oh and don't tell me you can brew the same beer every time, I know you can't and so do you.

Batz


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## lukec (1/8/14)

Well, he's already bought my homemade braumeister off me so every please talk up the pros of braumeister


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## lael (1/8/14)

You can read brewing books whilst your brau is mashing for you


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## Blind Dog (1/8/14)

Batz said:


> But you can make the same beer constantly.
> 
> On my 3V this was almost imposable, it's very difficult to improve a beer if you can't have a start point. Now I can reproduce a beer that I have brewed that will be exactly the same.
> To newer brewers this perhaps does not sound important, but it will.
> ...


Had to read that a few times to understand it, but glad i did. I do have a BM. I was just trying to say that it doesn't make me a better brewer anymore than owning a Fender would make me the next Eric Clapton. But I do love that when I brew a great beer I can brew it again and again. Apologies If my post came across as something else.


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## Batz (1/8/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Had to read that a few times to understand it, but glad i did. I do have a BM. I was just trying to say that it doesn't make me a better brewer anymore than owning a Fender would make me the next Eric Clapton. But I do love that when I brew a great beer I can brew it again and again. Apologies If my post came across as something else.


I'm a dumb fu4k sorry.


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## Blind Dog (1/8/14)

Batz said:


> I'm a dumb fu4k sorry.


Think you'll find I'm the dumb fu4k. My post was too easy to misread


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## DJ_L3ThAL (1/8/14)

With a BIAB rig, without a secondary pot is there a means for wort clarification that recirculating in a vessel with a false bottom or similar would achieve, simply?


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## boybrewer (1/8/14)

Batz said:


> But you can make the same beer constantly.
> 
> On my 3V this was almost imposable, it's very difficult to improve a beer if you can't have a start point. Now I can reproduce a beer that I have brewed that will be exactly the same.
> To newer brewers this perhaps does not sound important, but it will.
> ...


Oh yes you can repeat beers on your own system . Its just a little trickier than a BM . It has been a year or so on my 2V HEX and I thought I would never repeat the same beer and then after tweaking and experimenting I have produced the same beer 4 times so far and will be producing it again this weekend . So it can be done but not with a flick of the fingers or button it just takes a little bit longer . Dam though I do make a good beer . This just comes with passion .


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## Blind Dog (1/8/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> With a BIAB rig, without a secondary pot is there a means for wort clarification that recirculating in a vessel with a false bottom or similar would achieve, simply?


A read a load of threads here, the biab forum and aha before buying a BM and I think the answer is maybe. It really depends on what 'simple' means to you. If you can pump the wort through the grain bed relatively slowly whilst maintaining mash temperature you should clarify the wort. Whether that makes the final beer from your bottle or keg clearer, seems to depend on who you ask. I reckon it does, but not so much that it makes any difference to the clarity of the final beer as I routinely use gelatin anyway and just increase the dose if I need to.


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## Blind Dog (1/8/14)

beer belly said:


> Oh yes you can repeat beers on your own system . Its just a little trickier than a BM . It has been a year or so on my 2V HEX and I thought I would never repeat the same beer and then after tweaking and experimenting I have produced the same beer 4 times so far and will be producing it again this weekend . So it can be done but not with a flick of the fingers or button it just takes a little bit longer . Dam though I do make a good beer . This just comes with passion .


I had to go on a course recently with work and there was some **** presenter who said that anyone who spent 10,000 hours practicing something would be a world expert in that something. Weird that when I suggested he stopped breathing he did not recognize me as a world expert on the topic, even though I've been practicing it for quite a bit more than his 10,000 hours.

Point is you won't learn unless you want to or have to, and without passion you just don't want to.


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## TidalPete (2/8/14)

IMHO you will *NEVER* be a serious & proper brewer until you learn how to master the process, the process, the process. 

I might be seen to be blowing my own trumpet, but I got into AG brewing long before March pumps (or any other pumps), grain mills, or even BIAB arrived in Oz & happily lived with a bodgied-up 3-vessel gravity setup (& less) until the aforementioned arrived & were available.

You young farts can thank your lucky stars for the multitude of brewing options you now have at hand in 2014 going onwards into the future. 



After about 9 or 10 years of use, my SS HERMS still gives me much pleasure but I could/might/perhaps/possibly consider rolling over to a 50-litre BM if I win the Lotto one fine day & when I find I can't tie my shoe laces anymore. 
Would never even consider getting a 20-litre BM because of its limitations & apologies to those who have them if I've upset you. 
Each to his own I guess?

PS ---- I must admit that my HERMS costs over the years have probably racked up close to 2\3 of the dollars needed for a 50-litre BM purchase & that's building to a (tight) budget stretched out over quite a few years with not too much bling, but repeat that my expenditure was slow & steady compared with an up-front cost of a BM.

Just my 2-cents & input. I'm sure I'll get lots of nice responses?


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## Blind Dog (2/8/14)

YOUNG FARTS?

you charmer, you

My first ever proper job was sterilizing barrels at Butcombe brewery in the summer holidays; my second was picking apples for Thatchers cider. It was that or (note the spelling) plucking turkeys

young i'm not

Farts was a subject I intended to post about on the big fermenter thread (i forget how big as someone said something was a 'fact' and because that really means 'i have absolutely no idea what i'm talking about but i have an opinion and you have to agree with me', i completely lost interest). what i was going to say was that gas moves from areas of high pressure (me) to areas of low pressure (outside me), hence i fart.

so my farts are probably young, but im not

however. i am a world expert on breathing as i have been practicing diligently and with a real passion for breathing (I find its rather important) for at least 10000 hours


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## Blind Dog (2/8/14)

feel free to randomly add punctuation, line breaks, spelling (in)corrections and other useful bits and pieces to my last post. My computer does


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## Blind Dog (2/8/14)

TidalPete said:


> IMHO you will *NEVER* be a serious & proper brewer until you learn how to master the process, the process, the process.
> 
> I might be seen to be blowing my own trumpet, but I got into AG brewing long before March pumps (or any other pumps), grain mills, or even BIAB arrived in Oz & happily lived with a bodgied-up 3-vessel gravity setup (& less) until the aforementioned arrived & were available.
> 
> ...


you'll get plenty of nice responses from anyone who actually read what you posted. I have a 20L BM, I wish I had a 50L but the quotes i got for a circuit upgrade were silly money, i've got 4 kegs on tap (probably each half full), 3 kegs conditioning, 4 fermenters in the fridge / garage and 3 cubes ready for yeast and i still want to brew this weekend...SWMBO thinks i need help, i agree. Problem is she thinks i need help with an addiction, and I think i need help to work out how to brew the perfect pint


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## dicko (2/8/14)

Well!!

After TP's post I will have to sell my 20 litre BM as it must be no good. 

Unfortunately, most of the arguments against are purely cost related and most will agree that a BM is expensive if you choose to compare it with a 30$ stovetop brewery or a simple BIAB system.

A new person entering this hobby today does have a multitude of choices with equipment that was not available ten or fifteen years ago.so at that time everything had to be made to suit or equipment had to be other items that were adapted for use in the home brewery.

There are not many people that actually add up ALL the costs when building a brewery.
I know that if I had my time over again and with what I know now with regards to cost, time, and just the inconvenience of a 3v system, I would not hesitate to spend the money on a BM.

Another thing I don't understand is your comment T P regarding the limitations of the 20 litre model. In comparison to what?? And what limitations?

Like many BM owners I had previously built a 3 v with a herms and while it was a lot of fun to build it was a pita to operate with all the hoses, switches, pump and fittings to attend to on brew day.
From my observation, most people are " time poor" these days and for that reason if nothing else is even taken into consideration then the decision to purchase and operate a BM is a " no brainer" if brewing at home is what you want to do.

Having said all that I strongly believe that all the types of equipment available to the home brewer will make good beer in the right hands but a really great beer will need the attention to detail on the "cold side" of the process.

Go buy a fresh wort kit and then ferment it with the incorrect yeast or ferment it in a less than sanitary fermenter or without adequate and reasonable temperature control or bottle and carbonate it incorrectly and you still will have beer but it may not bee good beer.

So to the OP who bought the clone BM, make the best wort you can on your new equipment and once it is made then think about how you will turn it from wort into a great beer.


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## mje1980 (2/8/14)

Batz said:


> But you can make the same beer constantly.
> 
> On my 3V this was almost imposable, it's very difficult to improve a beer if you can't have a start point. Now I can reproduce a beer that I have brewed that will be exactly the same.
> To newer brewers this perhaps does not sound important, but it will.
> ...


I'd love a bm but in all honesty if I make 10 batches of the same bitter or mild or whatever with the same grist and hops, if there are slight differences between batches it doesn't bother me at all. In fact by the time I'm drinking the next one I won't remember the first well enough to compare. 

In any AG, regardless of how many vessels or buttons or pumps, it's possible to improve your knowledge of the process and your beers.


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## Batz (2/8/14)

mje1980 said:


> I'd love a bm but in all honesty if I make 10 batches of the same bitter or mild or whatever with the same grist and hops, if there are slight differences between batches it doesn't bother me at all. In fact by the time I'm drinking the next one I won't remember the first well enough to compare.


 I guess I'm a bit too fussy about my beers, every beer I brew I write tasting notes on my brew sheet, the next time I'll read these and make adjustments if necessary.
I want the best possible beer that I can brew, if I can not replicate a brew exactly it's imposable to make minor adjustments.
I realize that most brewers are just happy to turn out a good beer, I'm always striving to brew a better beer.

Batz

Batz


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## mje1980 (2/8/14)

I must admit, I rarely brew the same batch exactly. It could be the greatest beer ever, but by the time I brew it again I'll tweak this or that slightly. I like slight differences. I mostly brew uk ales and Belgians so there is plenty of room for movement in those beers. Like funky beers too but damned if I know how to replicate those beers, no matter how many notes I keep. 

Still want a BM one day though .


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## DJ_L3ThAL (2/8/14)

Blind Dog said:


> A read a load of threads here, the biab forum and aha before buying a BM and I think the answer is maybe. It really depends on what 'simple' means to you. If you can pump the wort through the grain bed relatively slowly whilst maintaining mash temperature you should clarify the wort. Whether that makes the final beer from your bottle or keg clearer, seems to depend on who you ask. I reckon it does, but not so much that it makes any difference to the clarity of the final beer as I routinely use gelatin anyway and just increase the dose if I need to.


Well its not so much clarity I'm concerned with but more so a recipe is like to do frequently as I love it. A chestnut pilsner using fresh meal (not roasted) in the mash. There are nut oils which carry over and I'd like to try filter them out with the grain bed.

So getting a BM is not viable just for that reason, which is why I'm thinking an esky mash tun (or any additional vessel mash tun) and a pump is the most straight forward thing that springs to mind which would also allow me to do two brews in a day and not take 12 hours. So there is added flexibility from that.

Could I simply mash out, then drain the mash keggle with bag and grains remaining in the keggle and wort into buckets then pour that back over the grain carefully (maybe even through a small hose to not channel/disturb the "bed") and let it drain some more, then repeat until I notice some clarity from doing so, hoist the bag and return the wort to the keggle and proceed as normal? Obviously some heat loss but if ive mashed put there shouldnt be any ill effects other than a bit more time getting to boil?


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## idzy (6/8/14)

Flames are out. 

85 posts and nearly 85 opinions


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## fraser_john (6/8/14)

I see the benefits of both, I really like the idea of a single vessel, but what I don't understand is the 3V statements of cleaning is a bitch and all the hoses a pain.

Cleaning is simple, clean in place no moving stuff around. The only thing I have to "move" is my kettle to the sink to wash it, everything else stays exactly where it is. I use my ramp/soak PID to heat cleaning water (caustic or percarbonate or tricleanium) then recirc through the CFC back into mash tun and then rinse with a citric acid wash, easy.

Hoses? If the 3V is built right there should only be one hose to move, that which recircs back into the mash being moved to the kettle to start the wort transfer. Same hose for connecting to CFC during cleaning phase.

Not hard at all? Or am I missing something?

I get a 3V brew day with a 90 minute boil done in 5 hours INCLUDING cleaning. And that time would be faster if I had of installed a damn 20A outlet in the brewery instead of having to fall back to 10A for everything :'(


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## Goose (6/8/14)

Batz said:


> But you can make the same beer constantly.
> 
> On my 3V this was almost imposable, it's very difficult to improve a beer if you can't have a start point. Now I can reproduce a beer that I have brewed that will be exactly the same.
> To newer brewers this perhaps does not sound important, but it will.
> ...



Are you sure about that Batzy 

I don't see why you cant achieve consistency with 3V with RIMS if you have accurate and precise measurement and control. For consistency and repeatability, surely the answer is just to eliminate the variables ?

For example the SABCO 3V RIMS system lays its reputation on repeatability. There are plenty of homebuilt examples with satisfactory controls that achieve the same.


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## Goose (6/8/14)

To add, don't get me wrong, I think the BM is an awesome piece of kit _if it fits your purpose. _

One distinct disadvantage of the BM is the fact you cant mash in a second batch while you are boiling your first, so if you want to do 2 or three batches in a day I am thinking it would take a lot longer with a single BM unit. Yeah you can have two of course... B)

Other disadvantages I see, for 50L systems and above, you need two people or a pulley system for breaking the suction and lifting out the malt pipe, it doesn't have a gas option if the cost per kwh for electricity is extortionate like it is where I am, you probably need a separate HLT or hot water source for sparging, you cant brew big beers with all grain and in a lot of places you'd probably need to mortgage your houses to get the high amp circuit installed so you can run the thing.

A BM is not for everybody and not for me.


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## sponge (6/8/14)

I like the idea of a single vessel, but love the amount of tweaking you can do on a 3V system, and love that you can say you designed it (especially once you get into control panels, etc).

It's easy enough (IMO) to get repeatability on any system, as long as you know your system well. Granted, a BM would make this learning process much faster and allow for more repeatable beers in a shorterspace of time.

The space savings are a massive thumbs up for a BM, but I'm happy enough taking up half a wall for my brewrig. Hell, I take up more space with grain/fermenting fridge/cubes/kegs/etc than I do with my brewrig, so I'm not too concerned about the space my brewrig takes up.


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## bradsbrew (6/8/14)

I started out with a dodgy little esky and one of the pots in the kitchen to make a partial not long after finding the Grumpy's forum. I then moved on to a bit bigger dodgy esky and keggle with a 3 ring burner, then onto a dodgy 3V that included a lot of lifting etc. Heaps of alterations over the years to know having a dual pumped 3V that is capable of 120L at a time. I have enjoyed every step of the process but it is getting close to the time that I will buy a 50L BM. Will be money well spent.


Cheers


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## Goose (6/8/14)

bradsbrew said:


> I started out with a dodgy little esky and one of the pots in the kitchen to make a partial not long after finding the Grumpy's forum. I then moved on to a bit bigger dodgy esky and keggle with a 3 ring burner, then onto a dodgy 3V that included a lot of lifting etc. Heaps of alterations over the years to know having a dual pumped 3V that is capable of 120L at a time. I have enjoyed every step of the process but *it is getting close to the time that I will buy a 50L BM*. Will be money well spent.
> 
> 
> Cheers



back to heavy lifting to break that suction ?


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## bradsbrew (6/8/14)

Goose said:


> back to heavy lifting to break that suction ?


Already thought of that. $100 should get me a suitable electric winch.


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## Batz (6/8/14)

Goose said:


> Are you sure about that Batzy
> 
> I don't see why you cant achieve consistency with 3V with RIMS if you have accurate and precise measurement and control. For consistency and repeatability, surely the answer is just to eliminate the variables ?
> 
> For example the SABCO 3V RIMS system lays its reputation on repeatability. There are plenty of homebuilt examples with satisfactory controls that achieve the same.


Well I had trouble on my 3V and I brewed on that for years. I would brew the same brew and it was great, but it was always just that little a different each time.
On my old system I had to dial up my mash temperatures manually, I also used a timer for the steps. 

Just me and my old brewery I guess. Of course this is with the same hops etc before we go back into that old song.

Batz


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## Batz (6/8/14)

Goose said:


> To add, don't get me wrong, I think the BM is an awesome piece of kit _if it fits your purpose. _
> 
> One distinct disadvantage of the BM is the fact you cant mash in a second batch while you are boiling your first, so if you want to do 2 or three batches in a day I am thinking it would take a lot longer with a single BM unit. Yeah you can have two of course... B)
> 
> Other disadvantages I see, for 50L systems and above, you need two people or a pulley system for breaking the suction and lifting out the malt pipe,


Yes true, but while your BM is mashing you do have plenty of time to do other things

A pulley for the 50lt, yes I need one at my age. Rope pulley cost me around $15.00, not a biggie when your building a brewery no matter what it is.



> A BM is not for everybody and not for me.


Totally agree with this as well.

Cheers
Batz


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## Goose (6/8/14)

Batz said:


> Yes true, but while your BM is mashing you do have plenty of time to do other things
> 
> A pulley for the 50lt, yes I need one at my age. Rope pulley cost me around $15.00, not a biggie when your building a brewery no matter what it is.
> 
> ...



Only 58? still young....


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## Batz (6/8/14)

Goose said:


> Only 58? still young....



Yes, just a possum mate, doesn't take me any longer that 15mins to do a quarter of an hours work. 

Batz


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## MastersBrewery (6/8/14)

The stand for my clone has included crane arm and lifting winch, though my large malt pipe is good for a standard 80L batch :blink: and my shoulders are crap.
Large malt pipe usable volume is 51L
Small malt pipe usable volume is 32L
I aint lifting either

MB


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## carniebrew (6/8/14)

I've tried to read as much of this topic as I can, with limited time to do so! So sorry if I've missed the answers to my questions somewhere along the way...

I'm thinking of buying a BM, but with most of my brews will only do enough to fill a 19l corny. And I rarely brew beers above 6.5% at that volume, 'coz I just don't drink enough of them. If I'm doing a BIG beer, I'd more likely do a small (~12l) batch and bottle it. So, two questions:

1. If I buy a 50l BM & the short malt pipe, is it any harder to regularly do 20l batch brews in it, than it would be to do that size with a 20l BM? Sorry if this seems an obvious question, but I'm just wondering if there's any kind of "minimum" batch you need to do in a 50l BM, given all the pumps/electrics etc?

2. With a 20l BM, I keep hearing that big high gravity brews are an issue. Is this purely because people are trying to brew a full batch size of these big beers? For example, if I want to brew a 1.090 OG beer in a 10 litre batch, is this quite doable in a 20l BM?


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## Batz (6/8/14)

carniebrew said:


> I've tried to read as much of this topic as I can, with limited time to do so! So sorry if I've missed the answers to my questions somewhere along the way...
> 
> I'm thinking of buying a BM, but with most of my brews will only do enough to fill a 19l corny. And I rarely brew beers above 6.5% at that volume, 'coz I just don't drink enough of them. If I'm doing a BIG beer, I'd more likely do a small (~12l) batch and bottle it. So, two questions:
> 
> ...



If your happy to brew for one 19lt keg, go the 20lt.
I have a 20lt malt pipe and rarely use it, it's only for specialty beers. I don't often brew big beers but if I do they are normally Belgium's, then I add candy sugar like most others.
If you brew ship loads of high alcohol beers the BM is possibility not for you.

Batz


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## lukec (6/8/14)

I've only had my 20l BM for a month and have done 3 brews on it. I'm the one who sold the clone version ( 25+ brews) to OP. This is only my opinion, but with 2 boys aged 4-7 and not a lot of space and time on my hands the BM is awesome. My clone was great but I really wanted the real thing and I'm glad I spent the cash to get it. If I had a massive shed no kids and plenty of time id tinker with building a 3v. 

So in my opinion. 

If you are time short, have kids, not a lot of space and really want repeatability. Buy a braumeister or build a clone. I've done both and think its a great way to go about homebrewing ( remember this is Homebrewing people ).
Rememeber though, that no matter how good your good you can brew and repeat the recipe I believe that repeating the fermenting part is just as important.


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## MastersBrewery (6/8/14)

Carnie, I can only comment on your second question, from the point of view of having had to play the numbers to come up with my malt pipe sizes, whilst keeping in mind the beers I want produce. The balancing act is that of fluidisation with in the malt pipe (grain vs liquid) and minimum volume to both over flow the malt pipe and cover the elements whilst mashing.
I'd say 18-20L of 1075 would be pushing the limits of the 20l malt pipe, but extending the timings of the boil will get you there, you'd just have to keep an eye on gravity to start your hopping.

MB


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## Blind Dog (6/8/14)

Reply to carnie Q2 - For a big beer in the 20L you'd probably have to think about a double mash as you can't simply decrease the volume of water for the mash. The efficiency of the second mash will be a lot less than the first, and clearly it adds the second mash to the length of the day. But it is certainly doable and has been done (not yet by me, but there are some interesting reads if you google it). Strong english ales were apparently traditionally made with a double mash as excise at one time was charged on the size of mash tun


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## Batz (6/8/14)

You BM owners know of this site?

https://forum.braumeisters.net/index.php

3V owners not allowed.  And you would not visit a BM site would you?......But some of you have....I KNOW :super:

Batz


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## Blind Dog (6/8/14)

Batz said:


> You BM owners know of this site?
> 
> https://forum.braumeisters.net/index.php
> 
> ...


thanks - i keep meaning to register there as there's heaps of info. Now I have. Nice signature BTW


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## sponge (6/8/14)

It's like one of those women-only gyms.

I want in!



(But for now I'll stick to 3V)


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## lukec (6/8/14)

Like a fat kid who found a cupcake 



Batz said:


> You BM owners know of this site?
> 
> https://forum.braumeisters.net/index.php
> 
> ...


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## thedragon (6/8/14)

Carnie, a mate and I went halves in a BM20 earlier this year. I normally nock out 17L of 1.055 beer and then dilute slightly in the FV (I no chill and my containers are 17L). 

Sometimes I wish that I had a 50L, but really because the BM is such a beautiful machine to use, I don't mind doing smaller 17 - 20 L batches. 

If I had my time again, I'd buy a BM20, only this time I'd do it earlier. 

Edit: typo 



carniebrew said:


> I've tried to read as much of this topic as I can, with limited time to do so! So sorry if I've missed the answers to my questions somewhere along the way...
> 
> I'm thinking of buying a BM, but with most of my brews will only do enough to fill a 19l corny. And I rarely brew beers above 6.5% at that volume, 'coz I just don't drink enough of them. If I'm doing a BIG beer, I'd more likely do a small (~12l) batch and bottle it.


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## carniebrew (6/8/14)

Ok, a thread on that Brau site led me to an FAQ on the Spiedel site itself:
http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/frequently-asked-questions-braumeister.html

----------------------


Is it possible to brew any desired quantity of beer?
Determined by system a certain minimum of water is needed for the brewing process. Ensure that the heating elements are always covered with the water while overflowing.

Min. quantity 20 litre Braumeister: 16 litre of beer
Min. quantity 50 litre Braumeister: 40 litre of beer
For both devices there is a shortened malt pipe which could be used to brew only a half or less than a half
----------------------
So according to that, with a short malt pipe, you could make an 8 litre batch in a 20l BM, or a 20l batch in a 50l BM. But the "less than a half" is curious, but then that whole FAQ suffers a bit from translation issues I think.


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## Batz (6/8/14)

sponge said:


> It's like one of those women-only gyms.
> 
> I want in!
> 
> ...


But you guys do, why check it out if you not a BM owner?
We know who you are and where you live.

Batz

Perhaps change your IP addy?


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## Blind Dog (7/8/14)

carniebrew said:


> Ok, a thread on that Brau site led me to an FAQ on the Spiedel site itself:
> http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/frequently-asked-questions-braumeister.html
> 
> ----------------------
> ...


It does. German translated into English is just weird unless the verbs and nouns are put I to the correct order. I'm sure it's why we've fought 2 world wars (and 1 World Cup, do dah). Just do t get me started on the French

Seriously though, thanks for the info. When I bought mine there was no short malt pipe for the 20L. Now they can be had for $165 (G&G). Hallelujah

So you're sorted.

I've done just over 100 brews in a BM 20 L in about 8 months. Sounds a lot, but i brewed for a bunch of mates who took the wort in cubes to ferment, and added a bit to ingredient orders and I got the bit to brew mine with. Worked OK for a while. I'm still addicted, they're back to megaswill,

Point is the BM is a breeze to use, and now you can do higher OG beers in a 20L with a short malt pipe, it perfect


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## Mr. No-Tip (7/8/14)

Goose said:


> Other disadvantages I see, for 50L systems and above, you need two people or a pulley system for breaking the suction and lifting out the malt pipe.


Simply untrue. I am well scrawny and can lift the half pipe with one hand, the 50l pipe with a small step ladder and two hands, then after the suction is broken free up a hand to slide the brace under. Not difficult at all.


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## Kodos (7/8/14)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> Simply untrue. I am well scrawny


Simply true. He is


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## sponge (7/8/14)

Batz said:


> But you guys do, why check it out if you not a BM owner?
> We know who you are and where you live.
> 
> Batz
> ...


It's alright, I haven't been to that site yet. Just like the gym, I'm in the guy in the bushes.


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## mje1980 (7/8/14)

sponge said:


> I like the idea of a single vessel, but love the amount of tweaking you can do on a 3V system, and love that you can say you designed it (especially once you get into control panels, etc).
> 
> It's easy enough (IMO) to get repeatability on any system, as long as you know your system well. Granted, a BM would make this learning process much faster and allow for more repeatable beers in a shorterspace of time.
> 
> The space savings are a massive thumbs up for a BM, but I'm happy enough taking up half a wall for my brewrig. Hell, I take up more space with grain/fermenting fridge/cubes/kegs/etc than I do with my brewrig, so I'm not too concerned about the space my brewrig takes up.


You don't have kids bikes, kids camping gear and just general junk that comes with kids yet sponge . The main reason I switched to the BIAB was so I could free up space in the garage, and less moving around with buckets ( though a pump would fix that ). I also had to pull everything down off a shelf and set it up the day before. If I'd had a dedicated brew space I would've kept the 3v. Now the only time I use a bucket is filling the mash tun/lauter tun/ keggle, and the only setting up I need to do is putting the bag in. 

Got the farmhouse kranking, undecided as to which beer to hit it with, beire de garde brune, or saison.


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## sponge (7/8/14)

mje1980 said:


> You don't have kids bikes, kids camping gear and just general junk that comes with kids yet sponge . The main reason I switched to the BIAB was so I could free up space in the garage, and less moving around with buckets ( though a pump would fix that ). I also had to pull everything down off a shelf and set it up the day before. If I'd had a dedicated brew space I would've kept the 3v. Now the only time I use a bucket is filling the mash tun/lauter tun/ keggle, and the only setting up I need to do is putting the bag in.
> 
> Got the farmhouse kranking, undecided as to which beer to hit it with, beire de garde brune, or saison.


Farmhouse cranking? Use it on both!

But in regards to kids, I can see how 1V has its advantages for that, especially without a dedicated brewing area (hopefully I never have that problem as the Mrs is pretty supportive of the hobby... apart from the spending).

TBH, I am normally cleaning/shopping/etc during a brew day and just pop down intermittently to make sure everything is still running smoothly. When I need to, I'll flick another pump on for mash out, but it's generally a fairly non-intrusive day and can still get a fair few other 'chores' accomplished. I definitely spent a lot more of my time watching/stirring/measuring/etc when I didn't have the pumps and control panel so can appreciate how much time ends up going into a brew when automation is minimal.


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## SimoB (7/8/14)

I haven't got the BM but it looks great and seems to take a lot of the headache out of brewing.

I'm not ready to part with my 3V set up though. Something about it I just love. Like others I love the build too, seems to add a little more excitement on how I can improve my set up.

You can do a 3V set up on the cheap but you will never be happy and continue to upgrade. BM seems like a measure twice cut once type of set up.


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## Black n Tan (7/8/14)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> Simply untrue. I am well scrawny and can lift the half pipe with one hand, the 50l pipe with a small step ladder and two hands, then after the suction is broken free up a hand to slide the brace under. Not difficult at all.


Yes I agree. I use to simply stand on my table to lift the 50L malt pipe. I had a back operation (no, not caused by lifting the malt pipe) so then decided to use a block and tackle: cheap and effective. I used to place the malt pipe stand on the top of the BM before lifting the malt pipe and then twist the malt pipe once the lugs were above the stand and lower: no need to slide the malt pipe stand in with one hand after lifting.


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## GalBrew (7/8/14)

fraser_john said:


> I see the benefits of both, I really like the idea of a single vessel, but what I don't understand is the 3V statements of cleaning is a bitch and all the hoses a pain.
> 
> Cleaning is simple, clean in place no moving stuff around. The only thing I have to "move" is my kettle to the sink to wash it, everything else stays exactly where it is. I use my ramp/soak PID to heat cleaning water (caustic or percarbonate or tricleanium) then recirc through the CFC back into mash tun and then rinse with a citric acid wash, easy.
> 
> ...


How do you empty your mash tun without moving it? I have to move it, take out the false bottom, empty the spent grain and rinse it out with hot water. Kettle requires hot PBW overnight and a bit of a scrub to get it clean. My HERMS needs to be flushed and totally disassembled so the coil can drain. All of my hoses need washing (I do this in the washing machine with napisan), but they need the QDs and clamps removed which then need a soaking in napisan to get the crud off. Two stage water filter needs to be pulled apart and dried, I also spin the filter cartridges in the washing machine to dry them out. The only thing that doesn't need a clean is my HLT. I am also paranoid about drying all my hoses, pots coils etc. so they don't mold up which is a possibility in my garage. Pumps need flushing, then all the electrical bits and pieces need to be packed away and brewstand wiped down. Then all this crap needs to be reassembled for the next brew. 

It is a lot of work and I try and do most of it while brewing, but still after a while it takes the fun out of brewday to a degree.

Switching over hoses by comparison is not that big a deal (I have no desire to hard plumb my brewery), but it is annoying.


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## TidalPete (7/8/14)

GalBrew said:


> How do you empty your mash tun without moving it? I have to move it, take out the false bottom, empty the spent grain and rinse it out with hot water. Kettle requires hot PBW overnight and a bit of a scrub to get it clean. My HERMS needs to be flushed and totally disassembled so the coil can drain. All of my hoses need washing (I do this in the washing machine with napisan), but they need the QDs and clamps removed which then need a soaking in napisan to get the crud off. Two stage water filter needs to be pulled apart and dried, I also spin the filter cartridges in the washing machine to dry them out. The only thing that doesn't need a clean is my HLT. I am also paranoid about drying all my hoses, pots coils etc. so they don't mold up which is a possibility in my garage. Pumps need flushing, then all the electrical bits and pieces need to be packed away and brewstand wiped down. Then all this crap needs to be reassembled for the next brew.
> 
> It is a lot of work and I try and do most of it while brewing, but still after a while it takes the fun out of brewday to a degree.
> 
> Switching over hoses by comparison is not that big a deal (I have no desire to hard plumb my brewery), but it is annoying.




GalBrew,

Have you have unintentionally typed "HERMS" instead of "HE"????



> My HERMS needs to be flushed and totally disassembled so the coil can drain.



Not saying that my way is the way but I too have a HERMS & only do a fraction of your cleaning regime.
i.e. I don't disassemble everything every brewday or soak the kettle overnight, etc, etc. 
One-stage water filter (carbon) here & just air dry in place in between brews.
Twice a year a full caustic clean\strip, dissemble of the brewery is done but do run PBW through the system after every brew as well as a good kettle scrub. That says to me that a through caustic clean WILL always get rid of gunk that PBW never will no matter whether your system is a HERMS, RIMS, a BM or whatever.

The only non-ss component left in my system is the HE coil which WILL disintegrate one day unless I do something about it ASAP.  
The silicon hoses sold by our sponsors don't live up to the blurb as (even if flushed & cleaned with boiling water\PBW every brew) they will *still* stain & are a PITA when manually checking the end of wort flow from MT to kettle as they darken with use but AFAIK nothing can be done about that except perhaps subtracting the replacement cost if considering a BM? :lol:

I'd imagine that lots of brewers (not me) empty their MT "in place" quite easily ( Brucie's Stairway To The Stars easily comes to mind (below) which is absolutely excellent IMHO :super: ) & even not going to ask how you manage to remove your falsie before you empty the MT as I'm sure that's just a typo?

Just trying to be informative here so perhaps\maybe a re-think of your cleaning regime might make your brewday shorter & easier? :beer:


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## GalBrew (7/8/14)

Acronyms aside, I have one of Nev's SS-HERMIT setups, which need to be taken apart to let the coil drain and empty the water from the exchanger body. I have to take out my false bottom as a little grain gets caught underneath it, it is pretty simple I just empty most of the spent malt, unscrew the nut and lift it out (I am not a fan of the idea of leaving rotting spent grain under my FB), so no that is not a typo. My brewstand does not allow me to tip my mash tun and since I am not a welder, that probably isn't going to happen so out comes the mash tun for cleaning. Silicon hoses stain (who cares), but they still need to be cleaned. If I don't spin my filter cartridges they will become the substrate for a new exotic ecosystem. My kettle gets crap stuck to the bottom, which only comes off with PBW. I don't see how I can avoid cleaning this stuff?? Everything needs to be dried before re-assembly as anything that I leave wet in my garage (except in summer) will quickly grow mold. 

I have cut down on my brewday as much as I can, but if I skimp on cleaning crap will grow in and on my brew rig. It's just the limitations of my equipment and the weather where I live.


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## TidalPete (7/8/14)

As you will GalBrew.
Only trying to help. 

Not having one of Nev's SS-HERMIT fabulous setups I will never know what I'm missing out on? :lol:
Never get any crap stuck under my MT anyway & have never bothered draining water from HE in-between brews but sure I'll be enlightened sometime soon?

All the best in brewing.


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## Goose (7/8/14)

GalBrew said:


> Acronyms aside, I have one of Nev's SS-HERMIT setups, which need to be taken apart to let the coil drain and empty the water from the exchanger body. I have to take out my false bottom as a little grain gets caught underneath it, it is pretty simple I just empty most of the spent malt, unscrew the nut and lift it out (I am not a fan of the idea of leaving rotting spent grain under my FB), so no that is not a typo. My brewstand does not allow me to tip my mash tun and since I am not a welder, that probably isn't going to happen so out comes the mash tun for cleaning. Silicon hoses stain (who cares), but they still need to be cleaned. If I don't spin my filter cartridges they will become the substrate for a new exotic ecosystem. My kettle gets crap stuck to the bottom, which only comes off with PBW. I don't see how I can avoid cleaning this stuff?? Everything needs to be dried before re-assembly as anything that I leave wet in my garage (except in summer) will quickly grow mold.
> 
> I have cut down on my brewday as much as I can, but if I skimp on cleaning crap will grow in and on my brew rig. It's just the limitations of my equipment and the weather where I live.



Are you in FNQ Galbrew ?

I know your pain on the mould. In that kind of climate a meticulous cleaning regime is essential and hard to avoid. I find a smidge of PBW on one of those green plastic scourers removes all of the beerstone scale very easily from the boiler, while the mashtun is dealt with by garden hose and a wipedown. I then do the CIP with PBW in the mashtun and recirc in the RIMS system for 15 mins or so. Then drop the PBW solution into the boiler and recirc my plate chillers for 15 -20 mins using all my transfer hoses in the process. Then flush to waste with remaining hot water in the HLT.

I don't like the job but its a satisfying conclusion at the end of a brewday knowing you kits is ready for the next brew.


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## Batz (7/8/14)

Goose said:


> To add, don't get me wrong, I think the BM is an awesome piece of kit _if it fits your purpose. _
> 
> One distinct disadvantage of the BM is the fact you cant mash in a second batch while you are boiling your first, so if you want to do 2 or three batches in a day I am thinking it would take a lot longer with a single BM unit. Yeah you can have two of course... B)


Yes with my old 3V I did just that, mashed a second batch while boiling the first.

With my BM I do an overnight mash, I wake to start of the boil and then do a second mash while doing other things. I turned out 45lt with two batches on my old 3V, now I turn out 110lt with two batches in less time with my BM and with more free in between time while doing it.

It's not for everyone but hell it's for me!! :super:

Batz


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## Tahoose (7/8/14)

Batz said:


> Yes with my old 3V I did just that, mashed a second batch while boiling the first.
> 
> With my BM I do an overnight mash, I wake to start of the boil and then do a second mash while doing other things. I turned out 45lt with two batches on my old 3V, now I turn out 110lt with two batches in less time with my BM and with more free in between time while doing it.
> 
> ...


Pretty much exactly why I want one.. Plug it in, fire her up and walk away for a few hours.. Brew pretty much when ever I want and don't have to alocate a good 6hrs to the process. 

I don't need to have a jug in hand to experience re-circulating the wort to enjoy making beer.


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## Adr_0 (7/8/14)

Well it turns out Batz likes his BM. 

I think... Let me check the previous six pages...

EDIT: yep...


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## Adr_0 (7/8/14)

Tahoose said:


> Pretty much exactly why I want one.. Plug it in, fire her up and walk away for a few hours.. Brew pretty much when ever I want and don't have to alocate a good 6hrs to the process.
> 
> I don't need to have a jug in hand to experience re-circulating the wort to enjoy making beer.


Don't forget to put a post-it note on the yeast you want to use, otherwise it might pick the wrong one.


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## pedleyr (7/8/14)

Batz said:


> Yes with my old 3V I did just that, mashed a second batch while boiling the first.
> 
> With my BM I do an overnight mash, I wake to start of the boil and then do a second mash while doing other things. I turned out 45lt with two batches on my old 3V, now I turn out 110lt with two batches in less time with my BM and with more free in between time while doing it.
> 
> ...


Do you get commission on these??? I get to the point of saying, nah can't spare that money right now, good as it'd be. Then I read your posts in this thread and start running the numbers again. 

Got very close to just saying bugger it and doing it, glad I didn't. Savings goals!


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## bradsbrew (7/8/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Well it turns out Batz likes his BM.
> I think... Let me check the previous six pages...
> EDIT: yep...





pedleyr said:


> Do you get commission on these??? I get to the point of saying, nah can't spare that money right now, good as it'd be. Then I read your posts in this thread and start running the numbers again.
> Got very close to just saying bugger it and doing it, glad I didn't. Savings goals!


If you ever get to meet Batz, you will find he is a man of few words and has no interest of pissing in any pockets. So when he does speak so highly of a product you know it's genuine with no hidden agenda.


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## Batz (7/8/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Don't forget to put a post-it note on the yeast you want to use, otherwise it might pick the wrong one.


You have to write it in German mine can't translate.

Sorry no more posts in the topic, I did think it was a pros and cons topic but.

Batz


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## Adr_0 (7/8/14)

bradsbrew said:


> If you ever get to meet Batz, you will find he is a man of few words and has no interest of pissing in any pockets. So when he does speak so highly of a product you know it's genuine with no hidden agenda.


I know, and I absolutely respect that and wish I could taste some beers and see it /him in action. 

I guess that looking back at the original intent of the thread trying to help the OP... ah never mind, I'm missing the point. 

Carry on, i will keep to my 2V self.


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## Batz (7/8/14)

Adr_0 said:


> I know, and I absolutely respect that and wish I could taste some beers and see it /him in action.



Your not far up the road, next time your traveling down to the big smoke drop in and have a beer. Always welcome at the Batcave.

Batz


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## pedleyr (7/8/14)

bradsbrew said:


> If you ever get to meet Batz, you will find he is a man of few words and has no interest of pissing in any pockets. So when he does speak so highly of a product you know it's genuine with no hidden agenda.


My post was firmly tongue in cheek, Batz is clearly an advocate of a product he uses and believes in. 

Batz I didn't mean any offence, I think you've been a good contributor to this thread and brought first hand knowledge, which the OP asked for.


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## Blind Dog (7/8/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Well it turns out Batz likes his BM.
> I think... Let me check the previous six pages...
> EDIT: yep...


And he wouldn't be the only one

To like a BM, not Batz's BM specifically, thats probably illegal


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## dicko (8/8/14)

I think it is a good thing that Batz is prepared to be so passionate about his BM.

There would be many BM owners on here that read this topic and then think, " ah! stuff it, I know how good one of these machines are, but if some want to be this critical then I will just let it go"

When the BM came onto the market it was the cost that was the main point of contention.
It has been said before.... Add up the true cost of your 3v Tidal Pete and others, I think you will be surprised.

I will defy anyone to claim that their 3v can be cleaned as easily as a BM. Even if the equipment is CIP it is still 3 vessels at least and then the hoses and fittings etc. and I have never had to use Caustic on my BM to get it clean.

I do frequent another forum more specifically based around the BM and I am amazed at the amount of new brewers that go and buy a BM and start brewing having never owned any other type of AG equipment...in my personal opinion, these are the smart ones!

If cost is the real worry then go steal a pillow case from the linen cupboard and a large pot from the kitchen and brew beer.

If cost isn't a problem then build a 3v system that somehow seems to manage you to keep your hand in your pocket for upgrades, replacement of hoses etc and if you put a value on your time then consider spending around half as much time again after brewing cleaning the machinery.

Or buy a BM, you wont regret it.

Edit;
Did I mention the set and forget mash schedule that lets you do other family or personal related things while it is all happening unattended.
Probably didn't need to, as Batz has already said that you can mash overnite while you are asleep and wake up in the morning ready for the boil.
This is a bit like Sous Vide cooking....now did I mention that...Oh Well!!!

I am only a few brews away from training my BM to clean itself and wheel itself back into its spot when finished.


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## Eagleburger (8/8/14)

I am already 2/3 and a HERM heat-X on my way to a 3v. Now I am building my version of a BM and will have another pot for doing BIAB. I can do them at the same time for 100L.


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## Tahoose (8/8/14)

# and pitch yeast...


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## Blind Dog (8/8/14)

When I grow up I'm getting the 500L starter set (500L BM, 625L fermenter, glycol cooler, etc) apparently E36,750 all up from Spiedel.




And a divorce


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## sponge (8/8/14)

As has been the case for the last couple of years, my end goal is to have a fully automated 3V brewery, with a small SCADA system to control and be able to tweak remotely, if need be. Motorised valves, a couple of flow/level switches and all-electric heating should be able to get pretty close to the mark in terms of full automation. You could probably get pretty close to having the electronics acquired for ~$1k (depending upon level of PLC/HMI).

Granted, this is purely a personal goal due my occupation and one which probably isn't widely shared. Unfortunately for me, I'm spending a little bit of cash getting there by trying a few different methods first (basic/STC Herms/PID Herms) but am happy to keep tweaking in order to know exactly how I want the brewery to run in the long term - where I'd like the inlets/outlets/valves positioned, and all the other fun, little intricacies that come with this hobby.

Once again, in saying all of that, I really can see the mass-appeal of the BM as it will essentially get you the above in a small, compact vessel.


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## GalBrew (8/8/14)

Goose said:


> Are you in FNQ Galbrew ?
> 
> I know your pain on the mould. In that kind of climate a meticulous cleaning regime is essential and hard to avoid. I find a smidge of PBW on one of those green plastic scourers removes all of the beerstone scale very easily from the boiler, while the mashtun is dealt with by garden hose and a wipedown. I then do the CIP with PBW in the mashtun and recirc in the RIMS system for 15 mins or so. Then drop the PBW solution into the boiler and recirc my plate chillers for 15 -20 mins using all my transfer hoses in the process. Then flush to waste with remaining hot water in the HLT.
> 
> I don't like the job but its a satisfying conclusion at the end of a brewday knowing you kits is ready for the next brew.


I'm actually down in Melbourne. In the cold/cooler months of the year I have to be super vigilant to make sure that everything in my garage doesn't grow mold. I get the full rainbow of colours....green, white, black! It's quite annoying and then in summer it's super hot and dry in there.


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## Goose (8/8/14)

dicko said:


> I think it is a good thing that Batz is prepared to be so passionate about his BM.
> 
> There would be many BM owners on here that read this topic and then think, " ah! stuff it, I know how good one of these machines are, but if some want to be this critical then I will just let it go"
> 
> ...


Ok that's it. Changed my mind and it IS for me. 

Getting two now, so I can get 110 litres done in 5 hours with lots of free time. I can always use my 3V RIMS as a giant Sous Vide machine ...


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## carniebrew (8/8/14)

Batz said:


> <snip>
> With my BM I do an overnight mash, I wake to start of the boil and then do a second mash while doing other things. I turned out 45lt with two batches on my old 3V, now I turn out 110lt with two batches in less time with my BM and with more free in between time while doing it.
> <snip>


Interesting...great way to break up a brew-day. Do you set your BM to mash temp for a certain period, e.g. 60/90 mins, then make it turn off, and let it sit at ambient overnight? Or do you try and maintain some kind of minimum temp overnight until you're ready to go the next day?


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## barneyhanway (8/8/14)

fraser_john said:


> Hoses? If the 3V is built right there should only be one hose to move, that which recircs back into the mash being moved to the kettle to start the wort transfer. Same hose for connecting to CFC during cleaning phase.
> 
> Not hard at all? Or am I missing something?


Maybe I'm missing something, with a Kal clone electric brewery 3V HERMS you'd be using more than one hose during the recirculating mash.
HLT into pump back into HLT (to move the liquor and keep the temp consistent)
Mash into pump; pump to HERMS; HERMS back to top of mash.

That's 5 hoses by my count.
Not arguing that it's an issue, but it is more complex than a single hose. My system has 6 (using CFC as HERMs coil).


Braumeisters are awesome, 3V is awesome, every other configuration is awesome, beer is awesome. Who am I to judge your circumstances and what fits into your life better?


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## wide eyed and legless (8/8/14)

Not much I can add, regarding the favourable advantages of the BM, dicko, Batz and the others have covered just about everything, the only thing I could add is regarding the cost.Think of the time saved when using a BM, just for the time saved and the simplicity of its use makes the BM a cheap option.


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## Adr_0 (8/8/14)

barneyhanway said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, with a Kal clone electric brewery 3V HERMS you'd be using more than one hose during the recirculating mash.
> HLT into pump back into HLT (to move the liquor and keep the temp consistent)
> Mash into pump; pump to HERMS; HERMS back to top of mash.
> 
> ...


That is indeed 5 - or 6 - but the majority of these can be hard plumbed in copper or stainless. Only one or two need to be flexible.


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## RobB (8/8/14)

carniebrew said:


> Interesting...great way to break up a brew-day. Do you set your BM to mash temp for a certain period, e.g. 60/90 mins, then make it turn off, and let it sit at ambient overnight? Or do you try and maintain some kind of minimum temp overnight until you're ready to go the next day?


Really long alpha and mash-out rests. More here: https://forum.braumeisters.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=51


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## Adr_0 (8/8/14)

I feel as though I am staring through the window at the pilates class and treadmills by looking at that thread...


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## carniebrew (8/8/14)

Well, I'm convinced. Father's day is coming up soon, I'll start making noises. Don't G&G have a 20% off everything sale about then usually?  Although I believe stuff over a few hundred bucks is "only" 10% off. I wonder if that includes the 20l brau....


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## Adr_0 (8/8/14)

I think I'm half convinced too just quietly...


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## mje1980 (8/8/14)

If I had the cash laying around I'd get one definately. Better value than a tinny, that just bleeds money.


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## Black n Tan (8/8/14)

carniebrew said:


> Well, I'm convinced. Father's day is coming up soon, I'll start making noises. Don't G&G have a 20% off everything sale about then usually?  Although I believe stuff over a few hundred bucks is "only" 10% off. I wonder if that includes the 20l brau....


Yes the BMs will be 10% off.


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## carniebrew (8/8/14)

Ok...looks like I have some tinkering with Beersmith equipment and mash profiles to do...


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## jonnir (8/8/14)

I've only just finished building my 3v rig and this bloody thread has made me really think about a BM. Before purchasing thou must continue on with my rig to be sure i'm in this hobby for the long haul!


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## dicko (8/8/14)

mje1980 said:


> If I had the cash laying around I'd get one definately. Better value than a tinny, that just bleeds money.


BOAT = Bring Out Another Thousand =BOAT :lol: :lol:

Big savings brewing your own beer and fishing off the beach or rocks :unsure: :unsure:


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## husky (9/8/14)

I think you need both.
A Brau for when time is limited and you just need to fill kegs(when new family additions delete all brewing time)
3V if you enjoy the brewing process as I do. I refuse to do any adding up but at a guess could have brought 2 Brau's for what my 3V has cost, however I don't think I would get the same satisfaction. 3V will take more time out of the day, involve more cleaning, give more flexibility, better replicate commercial brewing processes and provide a good way to spend a day in the shed.


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## lael (9/8/14)

If you are thinking about a Braumeister, I would wait. I'm working on something that will make it look like a pain to use.


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## mje1980 (9/8/14)

I am, but for the moment my BIAB is simple and effective, and works fine.


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## suchidog (9/8/14)

lael said:


> If you are thinking about a Braumeister, I would wait. I'm working on something that will make it look like a pain to use.


Care to elaborate ?


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## RobB (9/8/14)

suchidog said:


> Care to elaborate ?


What he said, because I am most certainly thinking. The same silly work hours which keep me from building my own are lining my pockets sufficiently that it's time to say "bugger it" and buy a turn-key system.

Now I just need the hours to be slightly less silly so that I can actually _brew_, regardless of my set-up.


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## Blind Dog (9/8/14)

Hmmm

Can't think of a single thing that makes my BM a pain to use other than my brainfarts, so intrigued


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## MastersBrewery (9/8/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Hmmm
> 
> Can't think of a single thing that makes my BM a pain to use other than my brainfarts, so intrigued


yes but there are some nice pieces of tech that could improve it's usability, then again the controller lael has been working on could be used to replace the standard BM control box. Though I think someone has switch to matho's controller on a Genuine BM before, can't remember who though.

ED: from memory they had to switch out the thermometer


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## lukec (9/8/14)

So far today, I took 7yr old to auskick, 3 loads of washing hung out, chasey with the 2 kids, made pasta, roast slow cooking in the and also had a brew going in the braumeister. That's why my wife loves it.


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## lickapop (9/8/14)

Pretty hard to compare both until you have used both. Then you sell your 3v


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## sponge (10/8/14)

I am concerned that after picking up the new pots yesterday and seeing just how god dam big a 170L pot is, and how conveniently the 100L equivalent fits inside, I can see a change in mindset to a pseudo-BM build.


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## mje1980 (10/8/14)

sponge said:


> I am concerned that after picking up the new pots yesterday and seeing just how god dam big a 170L pot is, and how conveniently the 100L equivalent fits inside, I can see a change in mindset to a pseudo-BM build.


Now you're talking . Don't you work with plc's and stuff sponge?


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## MastersBrewery (10/8/14)

sponge said:


> I am concerned that after picking up the new pots yesterday and seeing just how god dam big a 170L pot is, and how conveniently the 100L equivalent fits inside, I can see a change in mindset to a pseudo-BM build.


I have seen and am building one with a 100L as main 170L as main would be epic, I just hope you've got some mates who appreciate a decent brew!

Ed : typo again


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## lael (10/8/14)

Its an awesome idea. I would be cautious as your minimum batch size will be massive


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## Blind Dog (10/8/14)

170L BM clone with a 100lL malt pipe. I feel like I'm standing next to John Holmes in the gents


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## sponge (10/8/14)

mje1980 said:


> Now you're talking . Don't you work with plc's and stuff sponge?


That I do Mark. A single vessel sort've takes away from the need for so much I/O and could easily be controlled by one of the PIDs I have now. It really does seem like the most logical option. Having a HMI on a single vessel would be nice, but seems a little excessive. 



MastersBrewery said:


> I have seen and am building one with a 100L as main 170L as main would be epic, I just hope you've got some mates who appreciate a decent brew!
> 
> Ed : typo again


Well I'm hoping with the move into our new place we'll have some entertaining space and will have mates over more often for the beers. The two keg fridge I have at the moment suffices for a decent weekend with mates, but that doesn't happen too often due to space restrictions at our current place. A 6 tap keezer should take care of that.

I'm just keen on making a few cubes and cube hopping with different hops or fermenting with different yeasts but only having to brew once or twice a month.



lael said:


> Its an awesome idea. I would be cautious as your minimum batch size will be massive


Yea I've contemplated that issue and I will still have a 50L keggle for smaller batches so can get the mashing done in the 'BM' and just boil in the keggle. Should still be more than enough liquid with the malt pipe in place for a smaller batch.


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## MastersBrewery (10/8/14)

or do several malt pipe sizes h34r:


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## lael (10/8/14)

Yeah, That could work. The big issue isn't necessarily the boiling, but fluidising a malt pipe when your outer pot needs a lot of water to cover the heating element.


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## Blind Dog (10/8/14)

lael said:


> Yeah, That could work. The big issue isn't necessarily the boiling, but fluidising a malt pipe when your outer pot needs a lot of water to cover the heating element.


I've often struggled to explain the mash process and the malt pipe. Fluidising, good word.


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## sponge (11/8/14)

lael said:


> Yeah, That could work. The big issue isn't necessarily the boiling, but fluidising a malt pipe when your outer pot needs a lot of water to cover the heating element.


Good point. I might have to have a little think about my options for that.. Having a 50L malt pipe (or smaller) as a backup would help reduce the amount of water required to 'fluidise' (tis a nice word, innit?!) the malt pipe and still have enough to cover the element.

Anyways, enough of me going off topic for a bit. Back to the BM v 3V discussion!


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/8/14)

It seems from what I've read and as mentioned above, a big part of the braumeiser design is selecting your batch size up-front. Does the same apply to 3V in the greater sense, or is the mash tun dead space really the only issue which is solved by some foil or even a smaller esky backup tun?


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## MastersBrewery (11/8/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> It seems from what I've read and as mentioned above, a big part of the braumeiser design is selecting your batch size up-front. Does the same apply to 3V in the greater sense, or is the mash tun dead space really the only issue which is solved by some foil or even a smaller esky backup tun?


Of course the dead space issue doesn't apply to RIMS or HERMS systems, I use an Igloo cooler for my tun and do singles and doubles in it, when doing singles my mash is thinner and heat loss compared to doing a double is negligible.

MB


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/8/14)

Oh yeah duh!!! How silly of me to miss that. Thanks for clarifying. 

Unfortunately for me there are too many positives of going either way and not enough negatives to rule one out!! Perhaps I need to see both in action on a brew day. Do grain and grape do 3V demo days or only BIAB and BM?


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## Tahoose (11/8/14)

G & G do a standalone demo brew with BIAB on one weekend, and on the other they do a side by side with BM and 3v..

So if you want to compare the two it's perfect.. I dropped in a couple of weeks ago and they were doing it, it's normally once a month.


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## carniebrew (11/8/14)

As luck would have it, I went to a brew day yesterday with two other home-brewers (I've brewed with these guys a few times over the last 12-18 months). We did 3 beers concurrently (a RIS, Hefe & a Saison). One of the guys (not on this forum) brings his 20 litre BM, so as you can imagine I was all over his system like a rash. 

What I found really interesting though is that he doesn't use any of the BM's programmable mash temp features, basically just puts the BM in manual mode, heats his water to strike temp, then puts in the malt pipe and pours the grain. He tells me he always does it this way, i.e. a single infusion mash.

He also doesn't bother sparging at all, just pulls the malt pipe at the end of the mash, and lets it drain back into the BM. He gets around 65% efficiency, and simply adjusts his grain bill to work with that. Once the grain is out he manually sets it to boil temp, and when it beeps to say it's there, hop additions start.

Now what struck me the most about all of this is his process doesn't really seem to do much that BIAB doesn't already do? I know this is just the way _he _does it, but I just found it interesting. If you don't need/want a step mash, what is it the BM is doing to make brew day so much simpler/better than a BIAB process? I was surprised his efficiency was the same as mine (I currently BIAB), given the BM pumps all that water around during the mash, I would have thought that'd increase efficiency significantly.

I'm still very keen on a BM, don't get me wrong. But it was a bit of an eye opener, I have to admit. Oh, and of course this thread is about 3V vs BM, so apologies that it's off topic. I'll go looking for some BM v BIAB threads to see what I'm missing.


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## MastersBrewery (11/8/14)

There are plenty of 3V'ers down Melbourne way I'm sure one of them would love a hand on brew day 
I'd say that applies to most systems too


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## mje1980 (11/8/14)

Step mashing is pretty easy with a BIAB, even gas fired it isn't that hard. 

It does seem a little odd to have a BM and basically use it manually though.


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## Tahoose (11/8/14)

Hmm yeah, I'd at least chuck in a mash out if I had a BM, I mean, your going to be working up to the boil anyway...


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/8/14)

I've had great results adding a mash out to my BIAB process. Just make sure I stir the mash when heating on gas and haven't had a drama yet. Biggest pain if I had to do multiple steps would be having to remove and put back the insulating towels at each rest point. Thats one for the first world problems thread...

Going to try a decoction mash next month, if its painful it will only hurry my desire to go recirc BIAB, BM or 3V :O


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## mje1980 (11/8/14)

Decoction will be a pain regardless of how many vessels, pumps or buttons you have


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/8/14)

Really? Going OT now but is it not simply scooping out mash to another pot/stove and boiling it then returning an amount to reach next step temp?


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## carniebrew (11/8/14)

Tahoose said:


> Hmm yeah, I'd at least chuck in a mash out if I had a BM, I mean, your going to be working up to the boil anyway...


Actually I think he manually did a mash out IIRC, thanks for the reminder.


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## mje1980 (11/8/14)

Well, yes, but it's messy, takes a while to boil, then you wonder if you've scooped enough grain and not too much water, then you have to boil it without scorching it, then you have to guess how much to add back in. It's definately do able but it takes time and you need to watch it.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/8/14)

Wish me luck then!!! ;-)


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## matt211181 (11/8/14)

I built my own 3V with HERMS (so 4V really) with separate PID controllers to control the HEX and HLT, etc .....I love the control and I can brew pretty much anything on it..... BUT.....I'm still finding myself considering switching to a Braumeister (or DIY clone)!...... the reason being I'm finding myself increasingly 'time-poor' with 2 kids under 2, and while my rig does allow great control of mash temps - the rig does need to be 'nursed' with manually switching valves to get liquid from vessel to vessel, controlling pump flow at the start of recirculation, timing mash steps (I could have installed programmable PIDs - but I didn't.....)

The prospect of tipping in some malt, stirring, pressing 1 button and walking away for a few hours sounds awesome (right now for my current 'time-poor' situation)......some of the extended overnight Braumeister mash schedules I've read about sound even better for freeing up time....

The only limitation I can really think of is due to the 5.5kg (approximately?) maximum grain bill in the 20L Braumeister malt tube......with an extraction efficiency of about 80%, and an end-of-boil volume of 25L, this would limit the OG to about 1.054 (without topping up with extract).......I guess I could always keep the 3V HERMS for the odd bigger brew....


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## Goose (11/8/14)

carniebrew said:


> As luck would have it, I went to a brew day yesterday with two other home-brewers (I've brewed with these guys a few times over the last 12-18 months). We did 3 beers concurrently (a RIS, Hefe & a Saison). One of the guys (not on this forum) brings his 20 litre BM, so as you can imagine I was all over his system like a rash.
> 
> What I found really interesting though is that he doesn't use any of the BM's programmable mash temp features, basically just puts the BM in manual mode, heats his water to strike temp, then puts in the malt pipe and pours the grain. He tells me he always does it this way, i.e. a single infusion mash.
> 
> ...



His process differs from BIAB in that the BM is a RIMS system however it really does intrigue me how some BM guys claim get 85% efficiency out of these things... I'd have though you have to sparge to achieve that ?


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## adraine (11/8/14)

So with all of this talk of OG topping out at around 1.055 my question is if you were to buy a 50l BM and were happy to take a lower yield could you do a higher gravity beer? what are the limitations? Physical capacity?


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## Blind Dog (11/8/14)

Around page 11 of the Braumeister Tips & Tricks thread mikk posts 3 recipes brewed to an og of 1.100 or thereabouts in a BM by doing a double mash. Its more work, but appears to be relatively simple (I've not yet done it, but plan on trying one day). there's others doing similar throughout that thread and in others.

Also, I doubt 1.055 is the upper limit in normal single mash use. The last IPA I brewed was 1.054 pre-boil and there was probably room to go if i'd wanted to push it a bit further


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## Tahoose (11/8/14)

Somebody did mention a couple of pages ago in this thread referencing the shorter malt pipe on a 20l system and higher OG brews.


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## dicko (12/8/14)

BobCharlie said:


> I built my own 3V with HERMS (so 4V really) with separate PID controllers to control the HEX and HLT, etc .....I love the control and I can brew pretty much anything on it..... BUT.....I'm still finding myself considering switching to a Braumeister (or DIY clone)!...... the reason being I'm finding myself increasingly 'time-poor' with 2 kids under 2, and while my rig does allow great control of mash temps - the rig does need to be 'nursed' with manually switching valves to get liquid from vessel to vessel, controlling pump flow at the start of recirculation, timing mash steps (I could have installed programmable PIDs - but I didn't.....)
> 
> The prospect of tipping in some malt, stirring, pressing 1 button and walking away for a few hours sounds awesome (right now for my current 'time-poor' situation)......some of the extended overnight Braumeister mash schedules I've read about sound even better for freeing up time....
> 
> The only limitation I can really think of is due to the 5.5kg (approximately?) maximum grain bill in the 20L Braumeister malt tube......with an extraction efficiency of about 80%, and an end-of-boil volume of 25L, this would limit the OG to about 1.054 (without topping up with extract).......I guess I could always keep the 3V HERMS for the odd bigger brew....





Goose said:


> His process differs from BIAB in that the BM is a RIMS system however it really does intrigue me how some BM guys claim get 85% efficiency out of these things... I'd have though you have to sparge to achieve that ?


1065 is achieved reasonably easily on the 20 BM at a final volume of 21 litres and a grain bill of 6 kg which is around the maximum amount you can fit into the malt pipe without turning the top plate over.

If you steep any crystals and roasts separately and turn the top plate over I have calculated that you could achieve 1075 without any extra work depending on the recipe. Then if you need a bigger beer you may add an extract or just boil to a lesser volume.

The guy that is using his BM manually may be happy with his process but he is not using his equipment to its full potential.

80% efficiency is easily achieved with a dough in volume of 25 litres and a small mini sparge of the remaining water needed for the brew. I have personally found that a mash out at 77 deg held for around 20 minutes increases efficiency. If you hold it for a longer period it improves efficiency again.

If you are going to assess the advantages of a BM I would suggest that you view someone using one at its full potential.


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## Blind Dog (12/8/14)

Checked my notes last night and my IPA with pre-boil 1.054 ended up as 20l at 1.062 into the fermenter. That was using just over 5.5kg of grain and, by my calc was about 75% efficiency into the fermenter, but don't quote me as I don't get too hung up on efficiency.


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## Blind Dog (12/8/14)

dicko said:


> If you steep any crystals and roasts separately and turn the top plate over I have calculated that you could achieve 1075 without any extra work depending on the recipe.


You, sir, are a genius.


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## matt211181 (12/8/14)

dicko said:


> If you steep any crystals and roasts separately .....


Thanks for that great tip Dicko. I had never thought of that. I'm getting closer and closer to throwing a sheet over the 3V rig and taking the Braumeister plunge....


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## McFeast (15/9/14)

20l BM Question - what's the maximum batch size you can get on it? Is it only 25l?
With 5.5kg grain bill?
I'm wanting to get as close to filling a 50l keg as I can with a BM was wondering if I could skint on the 50l BM. I'd consider double batches on a 20L if it was feasible.


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## danestead (15/9/14)

McFeast said:


> 20l BM Question - what's the maximum batch size you can get on it? Is it only 25l?
> With 5.5kg grain bill?
> I'm wanting to get as close to filling a 50l keg as I can with a BM was wondering if I could skint on the 50l BM. I'd consider double batches on a 20L if it was feasible.


Ive produced 30L post boil. The preboil volume was pretty close to ful. Im not sure you would fit many more litres in there.

As for max grain, Ive done 6kg a few times. Its pretty much full at 6kg so if im looking at a bigger beer I would add DME or sugars to bump it up. At 6kg of grain, my efficiency drops off 2-4% compared to a normal 5kg grain bill.


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## McFeast (19/9/14)

Thanks Dane.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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