# First Time Cider



## hazboticus (3/12/14)

Hi Everyone!

I was hoping to get some advise on a first time cider brew, having read through the starter thread I started brewing with some decent know how I just wanted to sense check some steps with you lovely people before I go and ruin something. 

I started brewing a couple years ago for fun and understand most of the basics however I have never produced anything that I would say is 'good' so I am approaching this with a bit more science and planning but I am a bit stumped. 

Firstly the process so far so you have some idea of what's going on

Recipie is;

25 litres Apple Juice (coles Home brand - no sulphates) 
2 Litres Pear Nectar
1kg Brown Sugar (dissolved in water)
7 grams Cider Yeast (from Daves Home Brew Sydney) 

All ingredients were combined into a 30 litre vessel (properly sterilized with Isophor) shaken and left to ferment. 

First day had very little activity that progressively increased to a constant bubbling and even a bit of foaming at the top (enough headroom so there were no issues). 

The brew has been going for about 10 days and seems to have finished off the sugars - temperatures have been fluctuating between mid 20's and 30's over the period as it has been kept in the shed. 

Last night I went out to try a bit and it came out quite watery and dry and tasted almost entirely non-alcoholic - we were aiming for a solid 7-12% (I haven't taken my readings properly so that's a bit of an issue but will get a gravity reading tonight).

Has any one had experience with this flavour issue? Is this normal? I have read that cider requires serious conditioning (3 weeks or more) before it has any hint of flavour however Im still not convinced. 

We are looking to back sweeten half the batch at bottling with a Lactose sugar syrup - aiming to hit a standard store bought level of sweetness (not that Swedish pear level) at a rate of 30 grams per litre. Has anyone had experience with this and can recommend a good amount of sugar to use?

Many thanks, 

H


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## Mutaneer (3/12/14)

The store juices have very little in the way of flavour once the sugar is gone.
Conditioning will help a lot. 6 weeks minimum is a target I aim for.
But you do get very subdued flavours straight after it's finished.
However your hot temps may not be helping aswell as needing to add a good amount of yeast nutrient, as there is very little naturally in the juice
I use GoFerm http://www.lallemandwine.us/products/nutrient_strains.php

as for back-sweetening read the "Sweet Cider" thread below.

Get on down to a farmers market, find an apple grower and buy their best cider juice.
Even the juice from the normal eating/ juicing apples will be superior (and far cheaper) than using store bought stuff.
So the "everyday" juice I can get is Jonagold + Fuji, but come the right time of the season I can get Orange Pippin and it's the real deal cider apple.

Also the yeast plays a part.
I started off with using EC1118 and DV10 Champagne yeasts. they are highly efficient at making alcohol, but don't promote any real flavour.
I've switched to Lavlin 71B and it produces a much rounder, flavoursome drink, which gives the impression of sweetness.

Forget sweet, convert your tastes to proper, natural tasting cider.
Nothing but pure, fresh apple juice (with absorbic acid added) and yeast.

I stuffed around with pear juice, different priming sugars, etc
none of it made any appreciable difference.

I prime my bottles at 10g/L for a nice fizz


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## hazboticus (3/12/14)

Great stuff man thanks for the input. I will definitely be following your advise for the next batch - just trying to nail the chemistry this time. Ill have to find a grower near sydney  

The sweetness thing was more for the GF and a couple mates prefer sweet ciders. Ill tell em to politely rack off cause I like it dry.

In regards to the yeast nutrients - I didnt add any and now I am worried they might have died off, I did put them in warm bath with dissolved sugar to wake them up but that was the only extra encouragement they got. Do you think they might have died? Based on the dryness of the brew I would say the sugars are 95% gone which would indicate a healthy fermentation if I am not mistaken.


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## Mutaneer (3/12/14)

Just add some fresh juice to the glass for those who like the sweetness.

What I do anyway, is rack the whole batch into a second fermenter as pictured here, as soon as airlock activity stops
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1488786_624848964274772_581861813165729192_n.jpg?oh=972bb7779b0dc066d234d445c6401871&oe=54FF7A75&__gda__=1427093401_469118b3d170e7b3815908d5e6411ea6

this allows a bit of gentle mixing, gets the majority of the spent yeast out of the way, but it will ferment a little more to ensure it's finished
I Like to leave it at least a week in this secondary vessel, for it to finish and then clear off before bottling.

This one here really shows how good the Orange Pippins are
A very dark orange juice (front vessel) to start with
https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/l/t1.0-9/10176171_631920290234306_7155437895021037642_n.jpg?oh=ec197fc4bf2eddc4cbeb42dc6f136681&oe=550915C6

After 1 week of racking and 6 weeks in the bottle, it clear up beautifully to this
https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/p417x417/10559868_678033488956319_8328604632474978201_n.jpg?oh=4338fe0c0995b7b4aa39af1b21549982&oe=551E2B14


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## hazboticus (3/12/14)

Wow that looks delicious  Gives me hope.

I am brewing in one of these http://www.bunnings.com.au/venture-bmw-30l-blue-tint-wide-mouth-water-storage-drum-with-bung_p3240534 and dont have a second fermeter to Rack into - is that totally necessary? I suppose I could bottle rack but my thinking was along the lines of just using the spout to Fill the bottles up - it sits slightly above the bottom so the yeast cake will stay down there and it should clear a little. 

The Alcohol content and yeast nutrients are my biggest questionmark I think - if its not alcoholic there's no fun


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## Mutaneer (3/12/14)

you'll definitely have plenty of alcohol given what you've described.
what % sugars is the bought juice.

My fresh stuff is up around 16% and gives my better than 7%

A second or third fermenter is a really good idea, it gives you somewhere to rack off into aswell as a vessel to bottle out of, again to prevent sucking up the yeast.
or just extra clean/ sterile areas to store things in.

I use a product called Sanitec from local cleaning supplies place
http://www.huntersproducts.com.au/products.php?cat=69&pid=665

It's a no-rinse (assuming proper dilution), food-area sanitiser. Ammonium based.
i just go nuts and spray/ wipe everything with it anytime I do something with the cider.


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## hazboticus (3/12/14)

The juice is around 94 grams per litre ~10% The additional added sugars should bring this to around 127/Ltr. ~12% Reckon it needs more sugar?

Also for racking - could I simply rack into my bottles (going back into the 3ltr. ones) and let it condition out for a week to ensure all sugars are gone then add priming sugar and Cap off? I was hoping we could just chuck the priming sugars in this weekend, cap then leave them in the shed for 6 weeks to condition - the plastic bottles can take a serious amount of pressure so I am not too worried about that - its more the issue of the lees contaminating the brew.


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## Mutaneer (3/12/14)

if you're worried about it not being finished, then just give it a good gentle stir now and throw in a teaspoon of sugar
this will definitely make it bubble again which is good for expelling any oxygen from the head-space.

if you're not fussed about a clear cider, then don't bother with racking off again, but you will get a lot of sediment in the end product
My latest batches have had even longer rackings and they only produce maybe 1/8 teaspoon of sediment in a bottle (I'm using champagne bottles, they take the pressure and less bloody bottles to clean/ fill and cap)

Sometimes too much sediment can leave a yeasty taste or smell, but pouring off very gently into glasses will leave it behind aswell as aerate the drink which allows those smells to dissipate (letting it breath)


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## hazboticus (3/12/14)

Cloudy is good  I think my plan will be to rack into bottles on Sunday - Ill chuck a bit more sugar in today to make sure its done and give it a shake. 

Ill let the bottles sit with loose caps for 2 weeks then top off with priming sugar and start thinking about the next batch  

or does that sound a bit too fast? maybe I should add the extra sugar and let it sit another week?


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## Mutaneer (3/12/14)

nah, it'll churn it up in a few hours.

leaving the lids loose on the bottles will only risk contamination.
If you're going to leave it another week.
leave them where they are, that will allow the yeast cake to harden up again underneath the bung
I'd even tilt it backwards 5 degrees to allow the yeast to settle away from the bung, so when you bottle from the bung (I assume you have a tap and hose to go in there) the cake isn;t disturbed


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## hazboticus (3/12/14)

Solid - Ill do that then and see how it goes. Its been kept pretty sterile but I suppose it might already be contaminated as I couldn't use an airlock on this one - just had the fermenter lid on but half a screw loose (the whole thing was sterilized) but we will see how it goes. Practice makes perfect :super: Thanks so much for your help! :chug: Ill throw some photos up when its bottled for some idea of the clarity.


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## hazboticus (4/12/14)

So I chucked in that sugar and set everything up to bottle - Spigots sterilized and in and I took the advise from Mutaneer and tilted the vessel back a bit to push the lees away from the spout. Hopefully 4 days will be enough for it to settle.

Here are a couple photos I took for Colour - I have no idea what my Hydrometer reading means but I am fairly certain it is saying fermentation is done as there are no longer sugars present.


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## Mutaneer (4/12/14)

yep, 1.00 or less is done.

What was your original gravity reading?


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## hazboticus (4/12/14)

Mate I have no clue - Im going to get some juice tonight and add enough sugar to bring it to my ~12% sugars calculation and take a measurement. Should be accurate enough for a reasonable estimate on its content. 

I did have a test batch in the fridge - same fermentation cycle but zero conditioning and flat and it has cleared out to look exactly like a store cider, about 5 gram/litre of sediment but its not to bad. Tastes a bit like cheap (and Weak) white whine.


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## Mutaneer (4/12/14)

always take an initial gravity reading, then you know how much alcohol it will produce

http://www.brewersfriend.com/abv-calculator/


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## hazboticus (4/12/14)

Indeed - Just wish my Hydrometer had arrived before we brewed :blink:


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## Airgead (4/12/14)

Patience grasshopper... you must learn patience.


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## hazboticus (4/12/14)

Patience is a Virtue I am learning slowly :huh:


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## Airgead (4/12/14)

Cider will teach you patience.

Mead will make you a master.


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## hazboticus (4/12/14)

ahahaha I should have a little sign on my shed with that on it. The real test will be not drinking it while it matures. 6 weeks is practically forever.....But I suppose I can make 2-3 more batches in that time :beerbang:


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## Mutaneer (5/12/14)

I always find it useful to crack a bottle every two weeks,
that way you can see how the flavours are developing and the changes in carbonation from big bubbles to a finer, champagne "mousse"


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## hazboticus (8/12/14)

Mutaneer said:


> I always find it useful to crack a bottle every two weeks,
> that way you can see how the flavours are developing and the changes in carbonation from big bubbles to a finer, champagne "mousse"


 I have absolutely no problems with this 

I managed to get a resonably accurate OG reading which put us around ~1.07 with a FG of ~1.00 so we are looking to be in the 8-10% range which is fantastic. 

Well we did get our bottling done in typical DIY fashion, Figured the original bottles were good enough to start with, they can take over 80kg of pressure (guess how we tested that one out) so hopefully they will hold the carbonation, used 7 carbonation drops per bottle (2700ml/375 = 7.3) as slightly under seemed better for the first run - 





In total we yielded 27.75 litres of cider with ~8 litres being 'sweet' (added around 100-200 grams of lactose per 3litre bottle) the rest being dry. 

Now we play the waiting game. Thanks again everyone for your help! Cant wait to get into the proper apple brews.


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## Airgead (8/12/14)

I hope nothing dripped off the reg grundies hanging overhead during the bottling process...

Juice bottles aren't really designed to take pressure. If you are carbonating on the low side you should be OK but be aware that they may go foom and all your hard work could be load.


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## hazboticus (8/12/14)

We actually did all the bottling indoors for that exact reason  I did carbonate low for that same reason - if they survive for 48 hours they should be fine? I would imagine all the sugar used at that stage and the yeast would be back to dormant?


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## Airgead (8/12/14)

No... carbonation can take 1-2 weeks to be fully done. At this stage of the process there isn't that much yeast around to eat the priming sugar so it can take a while. You will feel the bottles start to go hard, and using juice bottles will probably see them start to swell as well.

Cheers
Dave


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## hazboticus (8/12/14)

Good point! ill leave them outside for a solid 2 weeks to be sure they arent going to explode on me.


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## hazboticus (18/12/14)

To those of you following along at home - at a grand total of 11 days of resting nothing has exploded! I count that as a win.


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## wareemba (18/12/14)

almost ready to open one?


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## hazboticus (18/12/14)

maybe! word on the street is 6 weeks for best results however Ill probably give it a go this weekend to celebrate and will report back my findings.


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## hazboticus (13/1/15)

Well A bit delayed but Here are my post reports after trying a bottle every 2 weeks with about half consumed so far;


2 weeks - drinkable but definitely had that homebrew bite and tasted a bit like water with alcohol in it. 

4 weeks - significant increase in flavours but still had a bit of a kick (probably due to the ~10% abv)

6 Weeks - Fully matured and actually tastes quite nice, diluting it (strangely with sprite) at a ratio of about 10% sprite really brings out the apples and it tastes really nice, might be from the sugar. 

Notes for Next time:

Use real apples and buy a juicer, you will yield a superior product for less money.
Use real bottles - although this was only a proof of concept I cant help but feel cheap drinking from a plastic jug
Get carbonation more exact - the brew came out not nearly as carbonated as I would have liked it however this was a good thing in light of how poorly those bottles take pressure (they balloon out something fierce). 

Other than that 10/10 will brew again.


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## Airgead (14/1/15)

hazboticus said:


> Other than that 10/10 will brew again.


Welcome to the dark side.


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## hazboticus (14/1/15)

glad to be here. Do we have a secret handshake or something?


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## Airgead (14/1/15)

No, we just offer everyone we meet some homebrewed cider. If they don't back away, you know they are one of us.


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## hazboticus (14/1/15)

Sounds about right. :chug:


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## wareemba (15/1/15)

haz - nice 

1. how'd the sweet versions turn out?

2. any pics of the ballooning bottles? do you think this might have affected carbonation?


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## hazboticus (15/1/15)

wareemba said:


> haz - nice
> 
> 1. how'd the sweet versions turn out?
> 
> 2. any pics of the ballooning bottles? do you think this might have affected carbonation?



Well the sweet one wasnt exactly sweet however it was slightly...less dry? than the other one. Definitely could taste a difference and actually proffered the ones lactose treated. 

I don't actually have a photo of the bottles (ill try to take one next time I get a sec) but I think it might have - rather than forcing the carbonation into the beverage the bottles just expanded to accommodate for the gas potentially reducing the carbonation levels further. I could be wrong though.


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