# Best grain for pale lager



## rockeye84 (11/10/14)

Hi all been brewing lagers with Jw pilz & I'm not overly happy with the flavour, there always seems to be this annoying sweetness in the background, which is ok for a heavily hopped lager, but for a malty beer the dodgy sweetness don't seem to fit. Any tips on what is the best grain for a nice grainy lager? 

Any input would b great..


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## Black n Tan (11/10/14)

I like Dingemans pils, it is the lightest of the pilsner malts and has good malt flavour. Otherwise get a german pils, Bests or Weyermann.

EDIT: typo


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## mje1980 (11/10/14)

Try weyerman nor dingemans.


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## pilgrimspiss (11/10/14)

Try adding 1-2% acidulated malt. What temperature are you mashing at?

Cheers
Matty.


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## micblair (11/10/14)

anymore info? OG, SG calculated IBU's? Joe White Export Pils is also referred to as heineken spec. malt and is used to make a lot of commercial lagers including those brewed under licence. 

I would be looking at your brewing process before calling the malt into question, although given the recent revelations that Joe White have been deceptive with their CoA's I sort of can't blame you. 

I agree with the other posts, try something else, don't have anything to lose.


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## micblair (11/10/14)

Try targeting SG 1.008, 25 IBU's around 5% abv.


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## Hippy (11/10/14)

micblair said:


> anymore info? OG, SG calculated IBU's? Joe White Export Pils is also referred to as heineken spec. malt and is used to make a lot of commercial lagers including those brewed under licence.
> 
> I would be looking at your brewing process before calling the malt into question, although given the recent revelations that Joe White have been deceptive with their CoA's I sort of can't blame you.
> 
> I agree with the other posts, try something else, don't have anything to lose.


I'd have to agree.
Sweetness would be more likely caused by your mash schedule or underattenuation during the ferment.
Having said that I have found Wey pils to give a better flavour than the Joe White Pils.


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## rockeye84 (11/10/14)

Thanks for the quick replies peeps..

Last lager was an Aussie style lager.

75% pilz, 15% cooked rice, 10% dex 

22ibu with 60min addition of POR. 

55c/15m - 63c/120m - 68c/15m - 75c/mash out

Added lactic acid to mash & sparge. 

Rain water with cacl addition to 50ppm of ca, balanced Cl/so4 ratio.

90min boil

Fermented with Wy2042 Danish using BirbieG's ferment profile.

FG: was 1.005 4.6% abv 

Lagered for 4weeks, then cold filtered with .22 micron filter.

Have attached a pic of the setup I'm using 2 brew.

Don't get me wrong tastes good, just would be nicer to have a nicer malt back bone. Maybe I just don't like the flavour of Jw pilz. Few mates I've given I few bottles to are very impressed. Maybe I'm my own worst critic.

I have never tried any other than jw for my pale lagers, reading good things about weyermann. Might give it a crack next sack I buy.


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## rockeye84 (11/10/14)

What do you guys think of wey bohemian Pilsner? 

Would wey pale ale be ok for gold lagers?


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## pilgrimspiss (11/10/14)

Try dropping the 55 / 68 C steps next brew. 

I had success reducing noticeable sweetness (to me anyway) in my beers by removing these two steps. 

My regime used to be 55/64/72/78.

Now I purely do a single mash infusion at desired temp to suit style for all my beers and then ramp to 78 for mash out over 5 mins. 

Are you boiling the dex or adding to the fermentor after a few days?

Cheers
Matty.


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## rockeye84 (11/10/14)

Chuck the Dex in before the boil so I can make sure my sg is on target. Is it better add to fermenter?


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## manticle (11/10/14)

I doubt there's any effect from the 68 step after mashing at 63 for 2 hours anyway.


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## TheWiggman (11/10/14)

SCHMICK setup you've got there. Sounds like if you're hitting 1.005 you've got the process under control. 
Have you tried any other lager yeasts and without adjuncts and/or with other grains? I recently did one almost the same yours (but no sugar) and it hit 1.010. It might have that same sweetness you're talking about and has a bite about it which I'd attribute to the rice. It's also very pale, too pale for an Aussie style for my liking but it was supposed to be a TED. A good throwback. 
If I were in your shoes I'd definitely be changing to a euro pils malt if only for the sake of broadening your brewing knowledge.


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## mje1980 (11/10/14)

rockeye84 said:


> Thanks for the quick replies peeps..
> Last lager was an Aussie style lager.
> 75% pilz, 15% cooked rice, 10% dex
> 22ibu with 60min addition of POR.
> ...



I don't think process is a problem. How do you ferment?. I like to pitch heaps of lager yeast cold now ( 3-4 litre starter that's cooled to 6c after it's done. Pour off liquid and pitch to cold wort. Raise to 8-10 ). 

I don't bother with the high 60's rest for most beers. I prefer long low 60's rests. I like dry beers though.


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## rockeye84 (11/10/14)

Yep pretty much the same. On the pitching.

Make a 5l starter on my stir plate, let it ferment out, chill down to let the yeast drop decant & pitch slurry only. 

Chilled wort to 11c pitched the yeast when it's was bout 10c. Straight after pitching raised the temp wort to 13c & hold until half way to fg is reached, then start raising the temp 1c per day till I hit 18c then hold for a couple of days 

Then chill back to 12c and keg. Slowly chill the kegs down to 2c over about 7days then hold at 2c for 3weeks. Then filter then carb then drink..

Little bit of a process..


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## rockeye84 (11/10/14)

TheWiggman said:


> SCHMICK setup you've got there. Sounds like if you're hitting 1.005 you've got the process under control.
> Have you tried any other lager yeasts and without adjuncts and/or with other grains? I recently did one almost the same yours (but no sugar) and it hit 1.010. It might have that same sweetness you're talking about and has a bite about it which I'd attribute to the rice. It's also very pale, too pale for an Aussie style for my liking but it was supposed to be a TED. A good throwback.
> If I were in your shoes I'd definitely be changing to a euro pils malt if only for the sake of broadening your brewing knowledge.


Thanks mate. 

I've done a couple of lagers with an fg: of 1.009/10 way too sweet for my taste, seemed flabby & not very crisp. 

I think I just don't like Jw pils.. I have done a few lagers with Jw ale too, seem to be better, more grainy less sweet.

Will definitely be trying some euro pilz next sack I buy. Just gotta get thru the 17kg of Jw I have.


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## Hippy (11/10/14)

One step I added to my process to get my lagers super clean and crisp was oxygenating the wort prior to pitching.The difference is very noticeable and the attenuation levels dramatically improve. An oxygen kit is well worth the investment I reckon.


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## rockeye84 (11/10/14)

Yeh got an aquarium pump, filter & air stone etc. hit it for about 15 mins before pitching. You think an O2 bottle is better?


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## dent (11/10/14)

Seems like you mostly have it together. I get the impression you tastes run to something dryer/easy drinking than what the average brewer finds acceptable - no doppelbocks or dunkels.

I find a decent proportion (20%) of flaked barley makes for a very drinkable pale lager. Like you have noted, cheap ale malt rather than pils also lends itself to a more swill-style lager compared to the more flavoursome pils malt. Don't forget our old friend, white sugar, too. 

Rice I find seems to enhance the "sweet" characteristic of the beer for whatever reason.


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## rockeye84 (11/10/14)

For me nothing beats coming home after a big day at work hot & sweaty smashing few refreshing Aussie lagers. A big dunkel or doppelbock after work hmmmm not so much. 

I'm just trying to get that flavour ya get from a commercial lager, that real beer flavour. I know I'm not guna hit it bang on but something close would be nice..

Don't get me wrong I still love all other beer types. 

Just carbed up my Northern English Brown. Very tasty I must say..


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## rockeye84 (11/10/14)

Here's a pic of the lager I have been complaining about all day. All in all its not too bad just could be better.


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## Hippy (11/10/14)

According to Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff in their "Yeast" book, an aquarium pump will not give you more than 8 ppm of O2 and extended aeration can be detrimental to head formation and retention. With pitching rates required for lager fermentations you want to have at least 12 ppm of 02. The only way to achieve this is by using bottled O2. 20L of wort oxygenated with bottled O2 through a stone for 60 seconds will give you just under 10 ppm, while 120 seconds of pure O2 will give you about 14 ppm.


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## rockeye84 (11/10/14)

Cheers 4 the info mate. I'll have 2 sus out the local BOC gas agent for a bottle of O2.


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