# Whirlfloc.. and what then?



## blink471 (29/5/16)

Hi all... just posting a question after a brew day today.


I did my boil of wort and hop additions.. came time for 15min whirlfloc addition while Chilling.

Thought a quick stir to whirlpool dregs to the bottom was needed .. but not sure if that was right?

Was time to put into fermenter but there was a huge amount of white matter sitting in the bottom of pot. Because my volume seemed down and if I didn't add it 
to carboy i would be way of the mark with volume.

Is that what you do with Whirlfloc when added?

And let it settle in carboy and either rack to secondary or leave it?

It certainly created a lot of dregs in brewing pot.

A bit confused. 
Cheers


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## Fraser's BRB (29/5/16)

My understanding is that yes it drags a lot of solids to the bottom of your boil kettle (as intended) and that the majority of this should be left behind in the BK.

Like you, with minimal tech, I just give it a good solid whirlpool stir at flame out.

I tend to get a little run through the chiller into the fermenter. What does go through to the fermenter ends up falling into the trub for minimal ill effect.


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## MHB (29/5/16)

Kettle finings can be a bit of a issue, not enough or too much can cause the trub not to settle as well as it could, so can adding the fining at the wrong time as the actual fining material will get denatured if it is in the boil too long.
I find adding Whirlfloc any more than 10 minutes from the end of boil reduces its effectiveness. A few years ago I discovered BrewBright and haven't gone back. For best results make up BrewBright into a slurry with cold water and add when whirlpooling - makes a huge difference.

Mark


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## nosco (29/5/16)

Careful....you might start an argument.

Dont be to worried if you get a little or a lot of trub in your fermenter. The beer will still taste ok but avoid it if you can. Some people will say it doesnt matter at all and is even good for the yeast, others will say that you should have as little as possible. In general Id say its good practice to try and avoid as much as you can in in the fermenter. From what I can gather its bad for flavour stability and so bad for any beer you are going to store or condition for a long time. From my limited experience with keeping the trub out, you get better looking beer and better tasting beer, quicker. Especially with lagers. *Either brew a few litres more* to allow for it or try and filter it as it goes in to the fermenter. Filtering is futile if you ask me. Its generally best practice but from what I can tell no body actually knows for sure. Even among commercial brewers. Bottom line is trub in the fermenter might be bad. No trub can only be good.

Do a search for trub in the fermenter. Theres plenty of good info about.

Edit: maybe went of topic. I prefer Brew Bright as well. I think Whirlfloc have a use by date. I have noticed similar results without using any finings ,ie trub at the bottom of the kettle. Maybe due to boil quality or different malts?


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## arctic78 (29/5/16)

Never used whirlfloc but I have found that Irish moss added for the last 10min of the boil ( .75 Tsp for 19-23ltr ) then leave as much crap as you can in the bottom of the BK as possible when transferring to fermenter works well . I also add gelatine to my secondary after cold crashing to 2c for 3 days before bottling. But everyone has a different way that works for them.


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## manticle (29/5/16)

What you have found is normal. Drop thw crap to the bottom so you can leave it behind.

If volume is short, adjust recipe -whether ingredients or process or both.

If you go into the 'all trub is harmless trub' camp (to which I do not belong), forget kettle fining additions altogether.


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## blink471 (30/5/16)

manticle said:


> If you go into the 'all trub is harmless trub' camp (to which I do not belong), forget kettle fining additions altogether.



Yeah well I fell into that camp.. wasn't sure what to do. Maybe a rack to secondary is required. I like to try things so might look at Brew brite or whatever it is. Haven't seen that in LHB but will check it out.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/5/16)

Make sure you get that kettle to a good rolling boil. This will help hot break material and give out nice big flakes

I have used Irish moss/whirflock at 5-10mins and it worked well.

I try to keep as much trub IN the kettle so I get a nice clean beer


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## Gigantorus (31/5/16)

Just my 2 cents worth.....

I've been home brewing for about 3.5 years now and have followed what is probably a common path. 

Originally didn't use anything to clear the wort and got a lot of sludge in my bottles, which meant a very cloudy brew as well as wasting a proportion of my hard earned brew. 

Tried adding cooking gelatine 3 days before bottling with a couple of brews (I think it was 2 teaspoons of gelatine powder mixed with 1 cup of luke-warm water, which is then allowed to reach the same temp as the wort. Then very carefully slow-pour onto wort surface). This actually didn't do a bad job and cleaned out the brews nicely. But my concern was with the possibility of infecting the brew at a late stage.

Then tried whirfloc tablets (added at 15 min to go of boil) and this appeared to clean out the brew a little - it definitely compacted the trub in the bottom of the bottle - but sometimes this prohibited the carbonation process. I don't think this worked as good as the gelatine.

Then I got my fermentation fridge and tried cold crashing. I have to say that this has proved to be the best solution for me to create a clean brew. I simply cold crash to 2C for a minimum of 3 days (generally 5 to 3 days) before bottling and the brew comes out so clean and clear. It also compacts what sediment there is in the bottle - so I get to drink virtually 99% of the beer from the bottle. The only down side is that carbonation takes an extra week to come up to drinking standard (max. 2 weeks in the bottle before drinking) - I guess this is a result of the low temp of the brew when bottled, which takes a few days to get up to 18+C for the carbonation to get going. But that's well worth the cleanliness of the brew.

Cheers,
Pete


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## MHB (31/5/16)

We are talking about two very different processes.
Kettle Fining is used to help protein, tannin/protein complexes in the kettle settle out faster, it has no effect on yeast (well at arms length) as it stays in the kettle.
Fermenter finings (like Gelation, Isinglass, to some extent Silica...) cause the yeast to clump and settle faster. Ideally you will have less yeast when you package which makes the beer clearer and yes slower to condition. Isinglass helps coagulate both yeast and haze (protein/tannin complexes) and if used properly (yes its a pain) will remove more from the beer than will gelatine.
Process aids are also used and sometimes mixed with finings PVPP is part of both BrewBright and 70/30, in BrewBright it is mixed with carrageenan (the active ingredient in Irish Moss), PVPP chemically binds haze forming protein in the wort reducing chill haze. 70/30 is a blend of PVPP and Silica, it binds both protein and tannins further reducing the haze forming potential of the beer. These products aren't finings as such that's why they are called process aids.

Proper use of both kettle finings and fermenter finings (and process aids in some beers) can and will make a huge difference to a beer, I'm not saying that all beers need intensive treatment, nor that in all beers its a good idea, just part of the collection of tools we have in the kit.

Mark


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## Morrie (31/5/16)

Ok, so what's the difference between brewbrite and whirlfloc? Specifically what is actually in both products and why is brewbrite favoured by some brewers over whirlfloc?


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/5/16)

*Whirlfloc*

A blend of Irish Moss and purified Kappa carrageenan that encourages the precipitation of haze causing materials such as proteins and Beta glucans. Prepared in a quick dissolving, highly soluble tablet form. Almost everyone who tries Whirlfloc tablets prefers them to regular Irish Moss.

*Brewbrite*

Brewbrite is a kettle fining and beer stabilizing agent, primarily for All-Grain brewing where there is a large proportion of hops and grain used. It is a mixture of Kappa-Carrageenan (an extract of seaweed sometimes called Irish Moss) and Polyvinylpolypyrolidone (or PVPP, commonly used in finished beer before filtering).
Brewbrite clarifies wort in much the same way as Whirlfloc tablets but more effectively, and prevents further haze forming right from the day the beer is brewed. This makes for excellent appearance and stability of the finished product and in some instances completely removes the need for filtering.


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/5/16)

*Irish Moss*

_Chondrus crispus_—commonly called Irish moss or carrageen moss (Irish _carraigín_, "little rock")—is a species of red algae which grows abundantly along the rocky parts of the Atlantic coast of Europe and North America. In its fresh condition this protist is soft and cartilaginous, varying in color from a greenish-yellow, through red, to a dark purple or purplish-brown. The principal constituent is a mucilaginous body, made of the polysaccharide carrageenan, which constitutes 55% of its weight. The organism also consists of nearly 10% protein and about 15% mineral matter, and is rich in iodine and sulfur. When softened in water it has a sea-like odour and because of the abundant cell wall polysaccharides it will form a jelly when boiled, containing from 20 to 100 times its weight of water.


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## Morrie (31/5/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> *Whirlfloc*
> 
> A blend of Irish Moss and purified Kappa carrageenan that encourages the precipitation of haze causing materials such as proteins and Beta glucans. Prepared in a quick dissolving, highly soluble tablet form. Almost everyone who tries Whirlfloc tablets prefers them to regular Irish Moss.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great explanation Ducatiboy stu, now Polyvinylpolypyrolidone sounds like some really seriously harmful chemical?


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/5/16)

*Polyvinylpolypyrrolidone* (*polyvinyl polypyrrolidone*, *PVPP*, *crospovidone*, *crospolividone* or *E1202*) is a highly cross-linked modification of polyvinylpyrrolidone (PVP).
The cross-linked form of PVP is used as a disintegrant (see also excipients) in pharmaceutical tablets.[1][2] PVPP is a highly cross-linked version of PVP, making it insoluble in water, though it still absorbs water and swells very rapidly generating a swelling force. This property makes it useful as a disintegrant in tablets.
PVPP can be used as a drug, taken as a tablet or suspension to absorb compounds (so-called endotoxins) that cause diarrhoea. (_Cf._ bone char, charcoal.)
It is also used as a fining to extract impurities (via agglomeration followed by filtration). It is used in winemaking. Using the same principle it is used to remove polyphenols in beer production and thus clear beers with stable foam are produced.[3] One such commercial product is called _Polyclar_. PVPP forms bonds similar to peptidic bonds in protein (especially, like proline residues) and that is why it can precipitate tannins the same way as proteins do.[4]
PVPP has E number code E1202 and is used as a stabiliser


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## Morrie (31/5/16)

Just hope its not bad shit to be ingesting mate. Just because its approved for use in food doesn't mean to say its non toxic and non carcinogenic...But then again what is alcohol.


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## manticle (31/5/16)

It's not something that's designed to be ingested.
When used properly, it chemically binds with unwanted particles and drops out of solution.
You leave that behind when transferring.


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## Benn (31/5/16)

If I were to ingest some I'd hope it binds to some of the residual Maccas that's in my guts and drops it out of suspension too.


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## manticle (31/5/16)

And while I don't want to drink plastic particles and generally prefer to add less rather than more to my beer, being afraid of something being a chemical is silly if it being a chemical is the only reason to be afraid.

By all means be skeptical, research and be knowledgeable about all ingredients but water is a chemical, hops contain chemical compounds, chemicals are not in and of themselves evil. Without chemicals, we die.


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/5/16)

I would prefer some natural algae over some kind of plastic, but you are dead right Manticle

Alcohol is a solvent, kinda like petrol, only you can drink it


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## manticle (31/5/16)

So do I.
Fish guts and seaweed is where it's at but some people freak out over that too.


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## Mardoo (1/6/16)

I like sushi too!


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## Gigantorus (1/6/16)

Another good reason to simply cold crash and not use any finings/tablets/clearing agents etc.


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## manticle (1/6/16)

The whole point of kettle finings is to drop out unwanted particles before fermentation starts so cold conditioning won't replace whirlfloc.


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## Rocker1986 (1/6/16)

I use kettle finings on every batch, I don't want all that trub shit ending up in the fermenter. At the moment I use Brewbrite. Cold crashing won't do anything to reverse the potential effects of dumping all the kettle trub into the FV, or at least I don't really see how it could. So, there's not really a good reason not to use them, at least in all grain brewing anyway. Not really necessary for small extract boils I wouldn't think.

As for post fermentation finings, yes I use them too. Isinglass for dropping yeast mainly although I understand it also drops some haze forming particles, and also Polyclar. It all drops harmlessly into the trub and stays there when the beer is transferred to the keg and/or bottles.

I personally find chemophobia completely ridiculous and stupid, because it's driven purely by ill-informed fear mongering (i.e. anything with a 'chemical' sounding name is dangerous) and people not doing their research. A great example of it is the Dihydrogen Monoxide thing, millions of people think it's some kind of dangerous chemical when written that way*, because they're too lazy or stupid to research it for themselves.

*Obviously it can be if misused

/endrant


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## Ducatiboy stu (1/6/16)

Just dont mention fluoridated water


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## Vini2ton (1/6/16)

I'm just glad that homebrew doesn't have any added hormones.


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## idzy (1/6/16)

Gigantorus said:


> Another good reason to simply cold crash and not use any finings/tablets/clearing agents etc.





manticle said:


> The whole point of kettle finings is to drop out unwanted particles before fermentation starts so cold conditioning won't replace whirlfloc.


Cold break, hot break and cold conditioning are all useful terms in this and all different.


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## Ducatiboy stu (1/6/16)

idzy said:


> Cold break, hot break and cold conditioning are all useful terms in this and all different.


Hot & Cold breaks are essential in my book.

You want as much as possible of both.

Nothing like watching a rolling boil and corn flake sized bits of break are rolling in it the wort B)


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## blink471 (1/6/16)

I think I need 20 fridges... Lagering.. Cold crashing.. Storing. All fun though.


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## dr K (1/6/16)

It can be instructional to watch slow movement to the boil, you will see hot break starting well before the boil, it first becomes of concern at or about the boil when the break (already formed) really gets in there with foam (and possible boil over) generation..thankfully it coagulates a bit (I personally find a really rollin boil helps) and drops off before you add more nucleation points such as hop material !! A very good reason to boli for a bit before the first addition.
A fair drops out during the boil, whirlfloc at the end, is a huge help, as indeed is whirlpooling.
I can honestly say that even after nearly 20 years of grain brewing I have still not my head fully around cold break.
K


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## Danscraftbeer (1/6/16)

The only time I forgot whirfloc tablet it was obvious mud looking beer that never cleared after months. It still tasted ok, ugly to look at. 
I do like the clear visualually impressive beer and its also when beer gets conditions for a longer time.
The later finings speed up the clarity, and maybe the flavour just goes the same as well.
So its a speed up for the finished beer.

The verdict: Whirfloc always. Later finings for visual impression. 
ed. Later finings being Brewers Gelatin you get in the little silver packs form your HBS or BigW as Brigalow finings. 
I've tried plane Aeroplane Gelly but it doesn't do the same job.


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## timmi9191 (2/6/16)

MHB said:


> Kettle finings can be a bit of a issue, not enough or too much can cause the trub not to settle as well as it could, so can adding the fining at the wrong time as the actual fining material will get denatured if it is in the boil too long.
> I find adding Whirlfloc any more than 10 minutes from the end of boil reduces its effectiveness. A few years ago I discovered BrewBright and haven't gone back. For best results make up BrewBright into a slurry with cold water and add when whirlpooling - makes a huge difference.
> 
> Mark
> ...


Where can one find said brewbright?


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## MHB (2/6/16)

I'm sure some other suppliers stock it but I get mine from my local Brewman.
He sells it in jars or custom sized sachets as part of a recipe in the ordering tool BrewBuilder.
Mark


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## timmi9191 (2/6/16)

Thanks Mark, Whats the rate of usage?


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## nosco (2/6/16)

I get it from Grain and Grape.


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## razz (2/6/16)

timmi9191 said:


> Thanks Mark, Whats the rate of usage?


4 grams per 23 lts batch (from memory)


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## MHB (2/6/16)

That's in the range, the manufacturer recommends 10-20g/hL (100L) with 15g being typical.
So for a 23L batch (10/100*23=2.3, to 4.6) with 15/100*23=3.45g being typical.
I find it depends a bit on the malt you choose, grain bills with higher adjunct (more protein) lean on it a bit harder, lower gravity pils style worts made from well modified malt, at the lighter end.
Mark


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## dr K (2/6/16)

I get mine from mashematics.net of course!! :chug:

k


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## MHB (2/6/16)

dr K said:


> Snip
> I can honestly say that even after nearly 20 years of grain brewing I have still not my head fully around cold break.
> K


There are two possibilities that spring to mind, the first is that it is protein that is soluble in hot but not cold wort. Be pretty easy to prove, just reheat a wort and see if goes back into solution - a bit like chill haze.
The other is that its a permanent protein polymerisation that form as the wort cools that wont be redissolved.
My bet would be the first, cold break isn't something that I get into a bunch about, happy for anyone to do a trial and let us know the outcome.
Mark


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## dr K (4/6/16)

Thanks Mark
But my comment was a general (and to an extent self deprecating) observation about the complexities of cold break, the first and obvious being a definition of cold break, equally so the difficulty of long distance diagnosis of problems with little or confused base data.

K


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## GalBrew (5/6/16)

Morrie said:


> Thanks for the great explanation Ducatiboy stu, now Polyvinylpolypyrolidone sounds like some really seriously harmful chemical?


Why, because it has a long sciencey sounding name?


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## manticle (5/6/16)

Science kills


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## blink471 (7/6/16)

I am thinking with still using whirlfloc and maybe a long boil... I might get the clear beer Im seeking. But still don't want to go down the path of secondary fermentation. Im 
not convinced that is worth the risk of infection.


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## manticle (8/6/16)

Different things.


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## blink471 (9/6/16)

manticle said:


> Different things.


Yep... Just weighing up all things that make clear beer... I know its not a big thing. Also going to look at how long I leave the wort after chilling in the kettle. I think I move it too quickly to fermenter and don't let it settle.


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## fdsaasdf (9/6/16)

blink471 said:


> Yep... Just weighing up all things that make clear beer... I know its not a big thing. Also going to look at how long I leave the wort after chilling in the kettle. I think I move it too quickly to fermenter and don't let it settle.


Sure, if you're picking up trub from the bottom of the kettle you're introducing sediment, however I'm not sure that will make any significant difference to the clarity of your beers if you cold crash after primary fermentation.

Source: I do not use finings. I no-chill in a cube. I do not filter. I get crystal clear ales* simply by cold crashing the primary FV for at least a few days prior to kegging / bottling.
*I don't want to start anything but can say that this method also worked when I dared brew a lager


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## Ducatiboy stu (9/6/16)

blink471 said:


> Yep... Just weighing up all things that make clear beer... I know its not a big thing. Also going to look at how long I leave the wort after chilling in the kettle. I think I move it too quickly to fermenter and don't let it settle.


I some times left it up to an hour after it chilled, just kept the lid on

Longer you let it sit, the more trub will settle


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## manticle (9/6/16)

Clarity of wort is not so much about clarity of final beer (although various proteins can contribute to hazes) as about the interaction of yeast with those proteins and other compounds (lipids, etc) and potentially affect flavour, stability and head retention.


However, I have suggested before, many times that clarity is not just cosmetic.

That something in suspension (yeast or whatever) can still taste like something.


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## blink471 (10/6/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I some times left it up to an hour after it chilled, just kept the lid on
> 
> Longer you let it sit, the more trub will settle


Ok. that is what I was going to do... but always thought you had to be quick to start fermenting to reduce the chance of infection. So I did hurry that stage. Or is ok once it is chilled by chiller..? 
Is the chance of infection only when it is boiling hot and it is left to cool slowly?

Thanks everyone this advice is great.


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## manticle (10/6/16)

Infection is more likely between around 5 and 65ish (somewhat bug and environment dependent too, temperature range a very loose guide).

I cover my kettle post boil, let settle for 20 minutes, whirlpool and settle another 20 mins then run into cube. Measured wort temp (some environmental variation of course) is around 80 degrees and having been boiled upwards of 90 mins, it's very unlikely anything new will get a chance to take hold at such temperatures.

I have left covered wort overnight (occasional excess I reserve for starters, etc. Again environment dependent and I'd recommend a good seal - glad wrap is a possibility) and if you keep air and dust out, you will generally get good results.


Short version is that taking appropriate precautions and leaving wort to settle can benefit your beer in the form of trub removal.


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/6/16)

Yep. As long as you try to avoid any sort of contamination post boil you should be right


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