# Cider Yeast?



## cyrrus (17/1/13)

Wasn't sure whether to post this in the yeast section, but I thought I'd catch the cider heads around. I'm thinking of making up a simple cider to fill up one of my empty kegs and take to a music festival coming up. Woolworths has golden circle juice on special at the moment for $2 for 2 Litres so I figured 20 bucks for a keg isn't too shabby! 

I've got a Safale S-04 yeast in the fridge but wondered how people go when using ale yeasts etc. in a cider. I want it to be nice but don't really have time to wait for a wYeast cider strain which I think I will order nontheless. 

Any tips on what yeast I could use which I can get my hands on easily, or if a safale will turn out alright?

Cheers!


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## bullsneck (17/1/13)

For what it's worth, I've heard of people having good results with S04 starting at 20. Apparently the esters work well with the apple flavor. I guess you can't pick acetaldehyde in a Cider!
I have a pack of S04 waiting for a bit of fermenter space to throw some apple juice on it.


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## cyrrus (17/1/13)

Okay well unless anyone else speaks up (please do if you have something to say!) I guess I'll give it a shot. $20 isn't much for a gamble really although it will use up my valuable fermenter space!


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## probablynathan (17/1/13)

I have only used s-04 in a cider once but I was very happy with the result.


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## drew9242 (17/1/13)

I'm about to try the same recipe as well. I did a bit of reading about what yeast people have been using. And for what it was worth quite a few people actually reccomended S04 over the wyeast cider. So ill be giving S04 a shot due to being able to just pick it up from the shop. By the sounds of it i should get my arse into gear, if i want it ready for the end of Feb.


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## Byran (17/1/13)

I have used 1272 for a simple cider and I was very happy with it. If you keg you can just back sweeten with fresh juice to taste.


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## bonj (17/1/13)

I recently made my first cider from 18L of Aldi apple juice and a sachet of US-05. It worked out really well. I reckon S-04 should do a decent job too.


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## JDW81 (17/1/13)

I'm a dry cider fan so generally head towards a wine or champagne yeast. My usual choices are Vintners Harvest SN9 wine yeast or Lalvin 1171 champagne yeast.


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## mikec (17/1/13)

Make sure the juice you buy is preservative free.


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## kahlerisms (18/1/13)

Gave this a go last night based on this thread. Looking forward to how the experiment turns out.


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## jaypes (18/1/13)

Woolies have the $2 for 2L of Golden Circle apple juice at the moment, bought a trolley load.

I am leaning towards 2 batches, one with S-04 and the other with 4766.

Not a bit cider fan myself but my mates love the stuff


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## mxd (18/1/13)

I have done one with us-05 and thought it was fine, I have just completed another using the cider yeast (dry) from CB and I think I prefer that flavour than the us-05


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## bonj (18/1/13)

mxd said:


> I have done one with us-05 and thought it was fine, I have just completed another using the cider yeast (dry) from CB and I think I prefer that flavour than the us-05


I'm not surprised that the cider yeast gives a better flavour. I'd say S-04 would probably be better than US-05 too. US-05 does a decent job, but I think it's a little too clean fermenting. From the info I've read, ciders with some acidity and tartness tend to be preferred by more people than the cleaner ones. I'm likely to continue using us-05 though, because it's easy and I'm lazy.


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## Airgead (18/1/13)

Never used a beer yeast for cider. I tend to use 4766 or a wine yeast. As long as its clean fermenting and not too estery it shoudl be OK. I wouldn't use a Belgian yeast or a heffe or anything like that. A clean fermenting ale or lager years should be fine.

Cheers
Dave


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## cyrrus (18/1/13)

kahlerisms said:


> Gave this a go last night based on this thread. Looking forward to how the experiment turns out.


Haha glad to see that I inspired some others! Mine's the same I wanted to keep it as simple as possible. 


The OG of the juice was 1.040 so I put about 200-300g of dextrose in there as well. I ended up getting a 4766 in the end because I'm culturing some up to put in test tubes, but regardless of how this turns out I think i'll do two identical glass carboys and use a US-04 and a 4766 and have a good ol' fashioned taste off. One on the left tap and one on the right. See what people prefer. When I get the results I'll let you all know!


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## jrsy85 (24/1/13)

Here is mine from Christmas, I used Oztops wine yeast. http://goo.gl/yJ0OS

Cheers


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## kahlerisms (25/1/13)

1.040? I measured 1.050. It was down to 1.020 yesterday (day 6) which I thought was a little on the slow side.


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## bum (25/1/13)

Slow is nice for a cider. Low and slow FTW.

RDWAHAHB.


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## drew9242 (25/1/13)

kahlerisms said:


> 1.040? I measured 1.050. It was down to 1.020 yesterday (day 6) which I thought was a little on the slow side.


That's about the speed of my first cider as well. Tastes good though. Bit confusing that it doesn't have a krausen, had to check a couple times to see if it was fermenting.


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## kahlerisms (25/1/13)

Drew9242 said:


> That's about the speed of my first cider as well. Tastes good though. Bit confusing that it doesn't have a krausen, had to check a couple times to see if it was fermenting.



Yeah, was hoping to have it in the keg and on its way to being carbed in time for a BBQ tomorrow, but at this rate I'm not even going to take another grav reading until next Wednesday (day 13) and see how I'm going.


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## Airgead (25/1/13)

Drew9242 said:


> That's about the speed of my first cider as well. Tastes good though. Bit confusing that it doesn't have a krausen, had to check a couple times to see if it was fermenting.


 Cider doesn't throw a krausen. Same way it doesn't hold a head when you pour it. Its low in protein so the bubbles aren't stable. Its the protein in beer that makes the head stable.

Cheers
Dave


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## JDW81 (25/1/13)

kahlerisms said:


> Yeah, was hoping to have it in the keg and on its way to being carbed in time for a BBQ tomorrow, but at this rate I'm not even going to take another grav reading until next Wednesday (day 13) and see how I'm going.


IMHO cider isn't something you can rush. If you want to brew something quick and get it into you within a few weeks of pitching then cider isn't the drink to do it with, brew a heffe instead. As Bum said, low and slow for a cider and within reason, the slower the better (mine are in the fermenter for a month minimum). They also generally need long conditioning time. I tend not to touch my ciders for at least 6-12 months, drinking before that wouldn't do them justice. I cracked one that was brewed about 2 years ago the other day and it was one of the best ciders I've had. 

FWIW I don't bother taking a gravity reading on mine until about week 3.

JD


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## kahlerisms (29/1/13)

Took another reading on day 10. Not a lot more movement - down to 1.020. I think I'm going to put it to one side of the brewfridge and ignore it for a couple of weeks and keep on fermenting other things. I've got three cubes backed up that need some fermenter time - wasn't expecting my cider to take so long.


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## kahlerisms (5/2/13)

Day 18 - 1012. 

I think this is the slowest fermenting ale yeast I've had in three years of brewing


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## Airgead (5/2/13)

Could be lack of nutrient.... Ciders are lower in nutrient than beer worts so the yeast may be struggling. Particularly an ale strain that is bread to work on beer.

Cheers
dave

Edit: On the other hand, a long, slow ferment is good for cider...


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## JDW81 (5/2/13)

kahlerisms said:


> Day 18 - 1012.
> 
> I think this is the slowest fermenting ale yeast I've had in three years of brewing


That is cider my friend, they all take their time. The wait will be worth it. 

If you want to brew something quick, brew a hefeweizen. If you keg you can have it grain to brain in 7 days.


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## Bludger (6/2/13)

As a rough and ready, before I had a fermenter, I threw Bakers Yeast (from the supermarket) into various 1.5 L and 2 L off the shelf containers of Apple Juice (preservative free). Capped with plastic film and a rubber band, then I went on holiday and forgot all about them.
Just sampled them this week. Of course they are flat (is still the correct terminology?), they taste of apples and boy do they have a kick. I like a dry cider and these are very dry.
Basically trying to say in my naive opinion that we should not get too fussed about yeasts.
Aldi Apple Juice tasted like an apple flavoured white wine. Worth doing in a fermenter with a better yeast and bottling to get some fizz. It was clear.
Nudie Apple Juice remained cloudy, is dry and tastes like apples. Some fizz would improve it immensely. And it has a kick like a mule. If I see it on special I will also try doing a "proper" batch.


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## manticle (6/2/13)

> Basically trying to say in my naive opinion that we should not get too fussed about yeasts.



Unless you actually enjoy well crafted cider instead of the bland fizzy stuff mostly available on the market, in which case juice and yeast choices are both important.


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## JDW81 (6/2/13)

Bludger said:


> Basically trying to say in my naive opinion that we should not get too fussed about yeasts.


I hope you've got a good flame suit, because you're likely to cop a hiding making comments like that on here.

The reason people spend a bit more money on yeast (for both cider and beer) is they are a known quantity and will give you consistent results, you know what is in them and that they aren't going to introduce anything unwanted into brew. 

IMHO yeast is the star of the brewing process, and I am (and will continue to be) overly fussed about yeasts.


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## bum (6/2/13)

Honestly, it's a bit too hard to get proper upset with the statement in question as he immediately goes on to say it would be better with a better yeast.


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## fletcher (21/2/13)

Has anyone tried or heard anything about this yeast?

http://www.thebrewshop.com.au/cider-yeast-mad-millie.html


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## drsmurto (21/2/13)

Airgead said:


> Cider doesn't throw a krausen. Same way it doesn't hold a head when you pour it. Its low in protein so the bubbles aren't stable. Its the protein in beer that makes the head stable.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


Tell that to my Whitelabs english cider yeast starter. Climbed out of the flask. Nothing but yeast and fresh apple juice.

A krausen is less about the medium and more about the yeast itself which is why some yeasts, even in a protein rich barley/wheat wort, appear not to be doing anything but still ferment out. Temperature and rate of fermentation are also factors.

That said, cider once carbonated doesn't hold a head but the krausen on my starter is bigger than any lager ferment i have seen.

EDIT - corrected myself.


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## Airgead (21/2/13)

DrSmurto said:


> Tell that to my Whitelabs english cider yeast starter. Climbed out of the flask. Nothing but yeast and fresh apple juice.
> 
> A krausen is less about the medium and more about the yeast itself which is why some yeasts, even in a protein rich barley/wheat wort, appear not to be doing anything but still ferment out. Temperature and rate of fermentation are also factors.
> 
> ...


True... top croppers will form a big head. In that case the foam stability comes from the yeast not the liquid.

i was thinking more of bottom fermenters.

Cheers
Dave


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## Greg.L (22/2/13)

My juice produces a lot of foam, but I think it is because fresh pressed juice still has suspended solids.
Regarding yeast, Andrew Lea says that most of the flavour of cider comes from the yeast, rather than the juice, but he uses wild ferments. I think you should use a wine yeast or ale yeast that is known to do well with cider, but I don't think yeast selection is crucial. It is more important to have a good airtight seal, small airspace and good quality juice (in my opinion).


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## Bludger (24/2/13)

To everyone: Flame away as long as you know about the difference between a healthy exchange of opinions, which can be a good learning process, and abuse.


JDW81 said:


> I hope you've got a good flame suit, because you're likely to cop a hiding making comments like that on here.


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## drsmurto (25/2/13)

Pitched the starter (Whitelabs english cider) in to the juice on Saturday night. Set to 16C. Added some yeast nutrient.

This morning both fermenters have solid krausens and one is attempting to escape.


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## simchop84 (11/3/13)

Gday everyone. This is my very first post so be gentle. I have done only done 9 brews so very inexperienced. Mainly used Lavlin ec-1118 yeast. I was told being a champagne yeast it was good for me cider because it is a 'clean' yeast so to speak. It will let them apple flavour speak for itself. Not having experimented much with yeast its hard to pass judgement. I find it ferments fast (after reading this thread thats not a good thing) and seems to settle very well after fementing.


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## Bribie G (11/3/13)

Greetings Simchop, I've just got into cider myself and I'm onto my second batch using the yeast (clearly labelled "cider yeast") I got originally with a Black Rock kit. I too have been wondering what I'm going to use when the current yeast goes wrong, as they can do after too many generations.

The thing that hit me with the cider yeast is that it drops to a really sticky compact layer on the bottom of the fermenter that just about has to be taken off with a paint scraper, plus the fact that after only 9 days and kegged, it tastes as good as commercial offerings such as Bulmers or Mercury.

I would bet that the 1118 yeast has more in common with the cider yeast than an ale yeast. And yes if I was mad enough to use say West Yorkshire 1469 with a cider I'd be disappointed if it didn't crawl out of the FV 

I note that CraftBrewer are out of all their wine yeasts. Where did you get yours from?


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## simchop84 (11/3/13)

I got my lavlin ec1118 of ebay. There is lots of yeasts on ebay but mostly beer. I also tried a black rock cider kit (5 seeds). It was very dry which isnt my sort of thing. I like sweeter ciders. Im about to experiment with sorbitol as a non fermentable natural sweetner rather than lactose.


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## Airgead (12/3/13)

Ec1118 is a champagne strain. Not bad for cider but will ferment really, really dry.

Most LHBS will have it in little foil packs for a couple of bucks.

A lot of ciders are made with wine yeasts. There are some really nice strains for a wine style cider. I used 71B to do a braeburn cyser. Very nice.

Cheers
Dave


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## 4feathers (12/3/13)

Hi people, i reckon a naturally cultured yeast from organic apple skins in organic tassie apple juice gives a real indication as to what we are aiming for as far as taste and dryness and true cider heritage goes. It is variable but such is life...also this method although a bit of extra work brings out the best apple flavour even when finished dry. I think its a good starting point once familiar with cider making as you come back to the basics and you add to that as you go. Most yeasts would give a flovour profile but one would think that the yeast on the skin and the apple should go best together .Peter


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## Greg.L (13/3/13)

Unfortunately there isn't much yeast on apple skins. (according to Andrew Lea who has studied these things). Most natural yeast in cider comes from the pressing equipment and just from the cellar environment. It is easier to do a natural ferment in places where cider has been made before. Also a natural ferment isn't just one yeast strain but a mixture, some are stronger early and some take over later, that is what gives complexity to a natural ferment.


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## kahlerisms (13/3/13)

Suppose I should update you all on how the Never-Ending-Ferment went.

I kegged on about day 24 at 1008, so about 5.5%. I reckon it could've fermented further but I needed the fermenter space and wasn't sure how dry I wanted it.

It's okay. I'm not a huge cider fan to begin with but I prefer it to some commerical shit like Strongbow but it's nowhere near as good as say Napoleone by Punt Road (though I never really dreamed it would be. I LOVE that cider like I've never enjoyed cider before).

It pours funny with an ENORMOUS head that tastes like apple peal that takes 10 seconds or so to dissipate completely. Not really sure what's causing this as otherwise my keg setup is reasonably well balanaced. It's a little cloudier than I expected (I guess I expected it to clear up like my beer kegs once it was carbed). SWMBO likes it and has suggested the cider tap should be a permanent addition.

I think the Safale s-04 worked really really well. I get nothing but appley aromas from it. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to use this yeast again. 

Overall a successful experiment I reckon. It doesn't blow my mind but for the price of a cider tap I reckon it's a pretty good option. Will be keeping an eye on future juice bulk buys.


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## primusbrew (13/3/13)

I have been wondering what it would be like to use a relatively low-attenuating yeast like Windsor (http://www.danstaryeast.com/products/windsor-ale-yeast) to produce a cider that retains some residual sweetness from the juice. I have only used the yeast once before to make an English Mild type beer and was happy with the results. It isn't a clean fermenting yeast and produces quite an estery beer so that might not work well in a cider.

Has anyone done this or know of a reason why it would or wouldn't work?


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## Airgead (14/3/13)

primusbrew said:


> I have been wondering what it would be like to use a relatively low-attenuating yeast like Windsor (http://www.danstaryeast.com/products/windsor-ale-yeast) to produce a cider that retains some residual sweetness from the juice. I have only used the yeast once before to make an English Mild type beer and was happy with the results. It isn't a clean fermenting yeast and produces quite an estery beer so that might not work well in a cider.
> 
> Has anyone done this or know of a reason why it would or wouldn't work?


Low attenuating yeasts are low attenuating - in a beer wort. Their performance in a cider, which has a different mix of sugars, will be completely different.

Usually, low attenuation in a yest is related to its ability to eat more complex sugars. Juice is generally made from almost exclusively simple sugars and in my experience even a yeast that is a poor attenuator in beer will chew right through a juice and leave it dry.

Having said that, I've never used Windsor in a cider so give it a go.

Cheers
Dave


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## drsmurto (14/3/13)

+1 to what Dave has said.

Low attenuating is only relevant when complex sugars are present.

I often read people get high FGs in cider using different beer yeast but I suspect that is more likely due to underpitching, lack of nutrients, oxygen etc.

I have been only to slow my fermentation right down by holding it at 14C using the Whitelabs English cider yeast. Only just ticking over now and SG at 1.014 (from 1.054). I was planning on bottling a few, allowing them to carbonate up to desired level using the residual sugar then pasteurising them in the HLT at 70C for 20 mins. This may allow me to retain residual sugars and have carbonated cider and not bottle bombs.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (14/3/13)

Thanks Doc, that's why I still end up with Dry cider using low attenuating yeast - and Windsor was the next step.

Easy peasy.

As for natural ferment, I juiced (or should that be pureed) pears on the weekend that were pretty over-ripe (still tasted good though).

Sterilised the container and poured the juice in direct from the juicer. Closed it up and (running out of time) went to dinner.

Came back to pitch yeast and the cube was less cube and more sphere. So it got off the ground pretty quick. I pitched some US 05 just to help it out a bit. Hoping it will still be perry and not perry vinegar. Especially as a new friend who has never tried anything I've fermenter is air-lock obsessed and will blame it on that if it ends up infected (evidence notwithstanding).


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## joshF (14/3/13)

There's a few fairly great reviews about S04 but i used it and wasn't overly impressed. most probably my fault though. Way too tangy and tart and dryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy (although it went from 1.052 to .996 haha :blink: ) The s04 definitely smells awesome though.

Have you guys had any experience with using combinations of different juice? I used 4L of Nudie apple juice, 4L of Cloudy apple juice, and the other 10L was just the standard woolies stuff. Perhaps this changed the flavour somewhat. 

Hoping US-05 comes out better


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## primusbrew (14/3/13)

Airgead said:


> Low attenuating yeasts are low attenuating - in a beer wort. Their performance in a cider, which has a different mix of sugars, will be completely different.
> 
> Usually, low attenuation in a yest is related to its ability to eat more complex sugars. Juice is generally made from almost exclusively simple sugars and in my experience even a yeast that is a poor attenuator in beer will chew right through a juice and leave it dry.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Dave. This makes the concept of attenuation in beer fermentation clearer to me. So if this is the case then all yeast strains, from champagne to ale, should more or less ferment out to the same FG in a cider.



DrSmurto said:


> +1 to what Dave has said.
> 
> Low attenuating is only relevant when complex sugars are present.
> 
> ...


I have thought about doing this. I wonder how this would affect the flavour of the Cider? Let us know how you go if you do it.

Cheers


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