# 2 Pot Stovetop Ag With Lauter



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I know the criticism that will occur from this topic - I've reinvented the wheel, it's just adaptation of another method and so on.

I don't care. Because someone, somewhere will learn something from this. It might get a kit brewer to AG (hell - I've done it with half a glass of beer, why not do a how to). More importantly it's to say to any newb just a bit concerned about the learning curve - there's many ways to skin a cat, what's the worst that will happen? You'll make beer and necessity is the mother of invention - adapt to what you have, your budget and facilities - AG is so forgiving for this.

This is the method I made my latest bitter - English Best Bitter. I no-chilled. I'm not a no chiller (I consider my house APA to require crash chilling, but that's another story), but given it was all early hop additions, I only nee ded a basic adjustment to simplify this brew.

The method is my standard two pot stovetop method. Rather than BIAB, I made a lauter tun, a la Ghetto method BABBs brew wars lauter tun. Now, my DIY skills are shoddy at best, so if I can make a lauter, then anyone can.

The lauter (youtube - BABBs system wars, ghetto method to catch up), is a bucket in bucket system, as follows. In newb speak a lauther is simply a sieve for wort. The grain bed that forms serves as a sieve for proteins, so you end up with far clearer wort. I did.

Edit:


> see post 69 in this thread for videos of how I went about this method.


2 buckets from Bunnings ($6 each):







Drilled holes in the bottom of one:






It slots in top of the other bucket:






Stick a hole in bucket 2 and put a tap in ($1.50 from bunnings):






Heat up strike water:


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

When strike water is at the right temp, bung in the grain and the water into my mash tun (a 25L esky I happen to already own). Put a lid on the esky, I'm only photographing this without it to show the mash in the esky. Lid it! If you have larger headspace than this, some alfoil on top of the mash can help reduce temperature fluctuations.:






After an hour, put the grains, et al, into the lauter tun (giant sieve):











At the other end, we start sparging (ie. rinsing grains to get maximum sugaz from them) - this requires a preheated amount of water at the required sparge temp (in my case 14 Litres at 81 degrees for a 77 degree sparge):






In order to evenly distribute the wort, I transfer half the pure wort into the 2nd pot (which had the heated water, but is now empty), and sparge 50/50 into each pot.






Now I boil these for 60 minutes:






Whilst it's working its way up to boiling, I'll continue to gather sparge runnings:






Advantages of this:

Less effort (my knee is shot, this is good for me), and considerably less mess in the kitchen (pleases SWMBO).

Requires little equipment, over and above BIAB or anything else.

2 pots, means I will get better efficiency than Maxi-BIAB for a similar amount of effort.

Can be done in the kitchen on the stove top.

Far clearer wort, with far less break - a distinct advantage for 2 pots, given I do lose a considerable amount to trub.

Can do it whilst under the influence.

Disadvantages:

Costs an extra $14 for a lauter tun. If you don't 2 pot, then another pot as well (my 2nd pot was $12 on special at Big W).

As noted above, this can be adjusted to chill or no chill. If this were my house APA, I'd be chilling, but seriously the brew day was over in 3 hours, and I'll run off the wort and pitch tomorrow.

Hope this helps someone. I'm a big believer in sharing info for the common good and this is my contribution.

Goomba


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## goomboogo

It's redundant.


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## Fish13

cheers goomba. I may explore this further.


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## Spork

Id need another Paulener stein, but I have the rest of the stuff. 
Nice simple "how to" LRG.


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## beerdrinkingbob

did you realise the bundy bear was in you wort.... h34r: 

Nice therad mate, well done


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Sorry about the dodgy camera work - blame iPhone 3 and Becks 4 (or possibly more).

Broke my normal rule not to drink until brew day is over.

One thing I forgot to put in, is the hop additions into the wort at 45 minutes - hopefully this is implied in the text, but if not - after I got the 2 pots to boil, hop additions went in 45 minutes from end of boil. This was a single hop addition - though I may do a bit of minor dry hopping in secondary.

Goomba


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

beerdrinkingbob said:


> did you realise the bundy bear was in you wort.... h34r:
> 
> Nice therad mate, well done



Naah - he's off captaining a hit n giggle cricket team.

Goomba


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

goomboogo said:


> It's redundant.



I don't care


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## rehab

Cheers for sharing. This is pretty simple to follow so after I crank a few BIABs I may grab a few Buckets and rip into this :icon_chickcheers: 

Chris


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## TheGregBrew

how did you add the tap to the bucket? Did you have a nut or something on the inside of the bucket?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

TheGregBrew said:


> how did you add the tap to the bucket? Did you have a nut or something on the inside of the bucket?



It nothing on the back end. A matter of putting a hole in it smaller than the tap and slowly increasing it until it fit - just and very tight.

It didn't leak and I'll likely glue it in, when I could be bothered.

Goomba


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## hopie89

OK this may sound stupid, but from the mash tun do u just scoop everything to the lauter?
Cheers,
Hopie


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## Drowro

I would suggest that he dropped grains and all into the bucket with the holes. Before that however he would have put a fly wire mesh in first to act as a strainer of the grains.


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## katzke

Looks just what Charlie Papzian does in The Complete Joy of Homebrewing. Only real difference is the use of 2 soup pots instead of one giant one. Not sure he used the cooler for mashing. If you did not have one you could do a stovetop mash. And no need for a screen in the bottom of the bucket. The key is to drill the correct size holes. 

A bit of control when transferring the mashed grains and pouring the hot water to rinse them out and I am sure you made good beer.


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## tiprya

How do you account for hop utilisation in your two pots?

The first pot that you take the first running with will have higher gravity than the second, so equal hop additions in each will not produce equal bitterness.

Looks like a very good method though - do you just pour everything from the mash tun to the lauter by tipping the esky?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I did say "look at youtube for the BABBs systems war Ghetto method".

Yes, mashed in the esky, use the steins you see to put into the bucket in bucket lauter.

Hop utilisation is a matter of splitting them in 2. I did get the gravity fairly even in them (courtesy of splitting the inital runnings and getting the sparge runnings fairly even between the two), so a fairly consistent result.

As I mentioned in the outset - it's merely a means to show that at home, without expensive specialist burners and gas, one can brew a full sized batch on the stove, without high grav brewing. Also, that with a drill and a few dollars worth of buckets and a tap and little DIY skill, one can make a lauter - which has a massive effect on efficiency, makes sparging a cinch and reduces trub losses to protein.

I suppose the biggest lesson to learn, that a bit of adaptability and little DIY skill means that you can brew AG on anything. Nick_JD's thread on stovetop method has done this for BIAB and getting people to try AG, because "hey a pot and a bit of fabric and I can make beer". This is in honour of that thread and to show that there are many ways to skin a cat (or an eggplant for any vegetarians/vegans) and that a bit of thought and looking for the stuff you have means you can make beer.

Just get the basics down pat and think.

Goomba


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Here's the original quote regarding wort gravity "evening".



Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> In order to evenly distribute the wort, I transfer half the pure wort into the 2nd pot (which had the heated water, but is now empty), and sparge 50/50 into each pot.


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## yardy

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Also, that with a drill and a few dollars worth of buckets and a tap and little DIY skill, one can make a lauter - which has a massive effect on efficiency, makes sparging a cinch and reduces trub losses to protein.



it would be less work to drill that esky/tun, fit a basic manifold and reassign that bucket into a camping shower.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

yardy said:


> it would be less work to drill that esky/tun, fit a basic manifold and reassign that bucket into a camping shower.



I'm under strict orders from SWMBO to not alter any eskies - after I did some irreversible alterations to another one.

That's the difference - if someone with my dodgy DIY can do a lauter bucket, anyone can.

But glad to have opinions - this is an attempt at another demystifying thread for less experienced brewers/thinking about switching to AG - and I love hearing other opinions that further knowledge.

Goomba


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## Fodder

Nice read. I'm just about to bottle my second stovetop BIAB as per Nick's thread and find your method very interesting.

Just a quick question: What size drill bit did you use for the holes in your second bucket? And I assume the pattern of the holes plays some importance? Any certain gap size between holes that should be followed?

Thanks!


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## Spoonta

you could rap the buckets in a camping mate so you did not need the esky at all just add your grain and water and mash in that


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## yardy

Spoonta said:


> you could rap the buckets in a camping mate so you did not need the esky at all just add your grain and water and mash in that



or put a tap and braid in the esky.


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## katzke

yardy said:


> or put a tap and braid in the esky.



Like he said, he can not modify the cooler or esky as you seem to call them.

Also if you want to cut out the esky you could stove top mash, oven mash, or as was also pointed out mash in the lauter tun by wrapping it up with something to insulate it.

I like BIAB. I have the stuff to do it. If I was looking to go AG again this may interest me. I already have a bucket for fermenting or bottling. IT would not take anything to get a second food grade bucket and drill some holes in it.

Just goes to show there are many ways to make good beer if you learn the basics of why and how. If you understand why grain is turned into sugar then you can find a way to do it with the junk you have.

I think posts like this go a long ways to promoting home brew. The picking that follows does not help much unless the reader has thick skin and desires to do it despite what others say.

That is not to say basic brewing science should be ignored and pitching yeast in hot sugar water, then drinking it after a few days, will make good beer.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

The point, as stated in the OP - is to show that with junk around the house or minimal outlay, one can add an extra step that shortens time from BIAB, and gives clearer wort and easy sparging.

As also stated I don't have the materials or the DIY skills to put a braid and tap in an esky, nor permission to ruin an esky that's going to hold some dairy or something tomorrow when I go camping.

This is a more "lying around the house stuff" thread.

And if a noob with good ability to conceptualise, but poor DIY skills (like me) reads this - they're going to go "hell, pretty easy" and if they read this and Nick's thread, they'll go "hey, if all I have create wort, and I can do it with what I have, why don't I try it out - it's not going to cost me anything" - like a perfectly good esky.

Another option would be to use BIAB material (or a bag) inside the lauter tun and mash in that.

That's the point - do what seems comfortable, affordable, available and within your skill set and get making some wort.

Drill bit was 5mm off memory, and I basically did it in a circular pattern, starting from the outside, and staggering each circle as I went in. But again - it's not these details that are important.

Goomba


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## philmud

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> At the other end, we start sparging (ie. rinsing grains to get maximum sugaz from them) - this requires a preheated amount of water at the required sparge temp (in my case 14 Litres at 81 degrees for a 77 degree sparge):



This seems straightforward, except for this bit (and I'm sure I'm just confused due to lack of knowledge of the process - I'm very new to brewing). Where did you heat the sparge water? I'm under the impression that you run off half of the wort into each of the pots - do you use a third pot for the sparge water, or do you simply pour all 14 litres into the lauter-tun while the first wort pot is in place?


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## yardy

katzke said:


> Like he said, he can not modify the cooler or esky as you seem to call them.
> 
> Also if you want to cut out the esky you could stove top mash, oven mash, or as was also pointed out mash in the lauter tun by wrapping it up with something to insulate it.
> 
> I like BIAB. I have the stuff to do it. If I was looking to go AG again this may interest me. I already have a bucket for fermenting or bottling. IT would not take anything to get a second food grade bucket and drill some holes in it.
> 
> Just goes to show there are many ways to make good beer if you learn the basics of why and how. If you understand why grain is turned into sugar then you can find a way to do it with the junk you have.
> 
> I think posts like this go a long ways to promoting home brew. The picking that follows does not help much unless the reader has thick skin and desires to do it despite what others say.
> 
> That is not to say basic brewing science should be ignored and pitching yeast in hot sugar water, then drinking it after a few days, will make good beer.



who's picking ? like the man said, he loves hearing opinions that further knowledge, i have both, if you don't like or understand them that's tough cheddar for you bud :icon_cheers: 

seriously, if you can drill 300 holes in a plastic bucket with no insulation, then surely, when your wife isn't looking, you can drill one hole (2 if you add a mash thermometer) in an esky/cooler (that you already have) and add a tap and some braid or copper manifold, my 2 bobs.

Yard


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## Rowy

I currently use a Hybrid of Nick and Goombas method but am thinking of getting a 40l urn as a result of a craftbrewer voucher I got for xmas. My thought was to use the urn to mash into a la BIAB and then take the bag and place it into the buckets to sparge, draining off the result then back into the urn for boil off. Can anyone see a problem with this. I see this method as a way of getting around having to have a pulley or something to drain the bag. Comments would be appreciated I'm pretty new at AG and may be missing something that may effect efficiency or something else.


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## katzke

Rowy said:


> I currently use a Hybrid of Nick and Goombas method but am thinking of getting a 40l urn as a result of a craftbrewer voucher I got for xmas. My thought was to use the urn to mash into a la BIAB and then take the bag and place it into the buckets to sparge, draining off the result then back into the urn for boil off. Can anyone see a problem with this. I see this method as a way of getting around having to have a pulley or something to drain the bag. Comments would be appreciated I'm pretty new at AG and may be missing something that may effect efficiency or something else.



You have to be disabled or a little girl to worry about draining the bag. My one big gripe about some misinformation about BIAB. Sure it is easier to let the bag hang from something to get every drop. Not needed to make beer. Any normal human can pull the bag a little at a time and hold it up with one hand after most of the liquid is out while spinning it with the other. It can then be hung from the proverbial doorknob or set in a bucket with some form of strainer or colander under it to get that last drop.

BIAB is only as hard as you make it. It should not be called brew in a bag. It should be called any one can do it if you can follow instructions. I guess that may not make a very good acronym. For all I know it may make something that is the same in Australian for your mother and father were never married.


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## Rowy

katzke said:


> You have to be disabled or a little girl to worry about draining the bag. My one big gripe about some misinformation about BIAB. Sure it is easier to let the bag hang from something to get every drop. Not needed to make beer. Any normal human can pull the bag a little at a time and hold it up with one hand after most of the liquid is out while spinning it with the other. It can then be hung from the proverbial doorknob or set in a bucket with some form of strainer or colander under it to get that last drop.
> 
> BIAB is only as hard as you make it. It should not be called brew in a bag. It should be called any one can do it if you can follow instructions. I guess that may not make a very good acronym. For all I know it may make something that is the same in Australian for your mother and father were never married.




I was thinking from the point of view of using it to sparge. As for your other point, I find comfort in the knowledge that I know who my father is unlike yourself who needs to send cards every fathers day to most retired members of the US 7th fleet, being sure in the knowledge that mom said it had to be one of them as the New York Yankees were touring away that month. Must be an expensive exercise sending all those cards in the hope of finding someone you can call daddy


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Phil Mud said:


> This seems straightforward, except for this bit (and I'm sure I'm just confused due to lack of knowledge of the process - I'm very new to brewing). Where did you heat the sparge water? I'm under the impression that you run off half of the wort into each of the pots - do you use a third pot for the sparge water, or do you simply pour all 14 litres into the lauter-tun while the first wort pot is in place?



The lauter tun has enough volume to hold the sparge runnings (over 20L and I rarely need more than 16L of sparge water).

So what I did was run the initial heavy volume wort into empty pot 1, whilst in pot 2 I heated the sparging water to temp on the stove.

When it was at the right temp, I poured it into the lauter tun (with the tap off), used an empty Stein (I own 4 or so) to transfer half the heavy volume initial runnings into now-empty pot 2, and then sparged half the water into empty pot 1 and half into empty pot 2, so we had approximately the right volume in each. The photo showing the two pots was closer to the end - I reckon one of my burners goes harder than the other, which might account for the difference as well.

I certainly get more evaporation than beermate calculates I should.

Goomba


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## Rowy

+1 on the low Beermate evaporation calculation!


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## yardy

katzke said:


> For all I know it may make something that is the same in Australian for your mother and father were never married.


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## Nick JD

yardy said:


> who's picking ? like the man said, he loves hearing opinions that further knowledge, i have both, if you don't like or understand them that's tough cheddar for you bud :icon_cheers:
> 
> seriously, if you can drill 300 holes in a plastic bucket with no insulation, then surely, when your wife isn't looking, you can drill one hole (2 if you add a mash thermometer) in an esky/cooler (that you already have) and add a tap and some braid or copper manifold, my 2 bobs.
> 
> Yard



Who wants to wait for ages for a stupid esky mainfold to drain? Half-witted apparatus at the best of times. 

The mere existance of rice gulls illustrates a broken system that requires a bandaid solution. 

Why don't you use a bag and throw your esky away if you love simple and obvious solutions so much?


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## philmud

@ Goomba - cheers, I plan on doing a BIAB for my first AG brew, but this seems like a simple way for me to knock up full brews on my stove with a couple of Big W pots.


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## yardy

Nick JD said:


> Who wants to wait for ages for a stupid esky mainfold to drain? Half-witted apparatus at the best of times.



tsk tsk, poor form nicky, you'll need fresher bait if you want to get a bite mate :icon_cheers: 

as an aside, a %70+ grain bill of either wheat or rye, without gulls, is not a problem on my system, just adjust your mash and sparge to suit, try a %100 rye mash in your bag and see how you go cobber, when you've done one let me know.

Yard


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## Nick JD

yardy said:


> when you've done one let me know.



For this kind of crap you get the inaugural "Stupid Post of the Year" award for "Exellence in Misunderstanding Other Brewing Methods". 

This year's award is in the form of a Bunny stealing a cookie.


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## Jazzafish

My first mash tun was a bucket in bucket system and a hand held element. Heated strike water in same design 2 x bucket MT, put element in coopers fermenter holding the sparge water (which eventually fermented the beer too), mashed in grain and wrapped up with bubble wrap and a blanket. Only lost 3*C in winter. My 2nd MT was a converted esky with braid manifold and this lost 2*C in winter. Infusing with boiling water to step mash or maintain temp solved this minor issue. Both systems made award winning beer.

So potentially, you could avoid using your esky at all.

I still use my bucket in bucket to make small batches of starter wort and have plans to use it as a hop back


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## yardy

Nick JD said:


> For this kind of crap you get the inaugural "Stupid Post of the Year" award for "Exellence in Misunderstanding Other Brewing Methods".



wow, i see you set aside that _special_ time to humiliate yourself in public again, thanks for that, i'm suprised it didn't go to you again for the 4th consecutive year, but feck it, a win is a win, thanks again nick, without you we'd all be stuffed. :icon_chickcheers: 

btw, brewed that %100 Roggen yet ?


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## Nick JD

Rye tastes like old dishcloths soaked in stale cheese. 

I have no problems removing any grain from any wort, for I have yellow rubber gloves. 

And BTW - I'm my head's up bum, not arse. Check the other thread. He's being a smegma foreskin too.


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## yardy

Nick JD said:


> Rye tastes like old dishcloths soaked in stale cheese.
> 
> I have no problems removing any grain from any wort, for I have yellow rubber gloves.
> 
> And BTW - I'm my head's up bum, not arse. Check the other thread. He's being a smegma foreskin too.



get off the crack mate, seriously.


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## Nick JD

yardy said:


> get off the crack mate, seriously.



You bore me.


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## yardy

Nick JD said:


> You bore me.



no thanks, btw your bruises are showing :icon_cheers:


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## geoffd

Good thead Lord Raja. I brewed my first AG with the bucket in a bucket, but found the head space under the false bottom too big & requiring far too much recirculation, I got a proper false bottom for the very next brew & i'm still using it in the 20L handy pail 5 years later. for the first couple of years my mash tun pot doubled as my boil tun, by giving it a quick wash after transferring the mash into the lauter tun. 

One pitfall early on is buying equipment that will require replacement down the line, especially if you're mini mashing. I bought a high quality 20L s/s pot which turned out to be a bit on the small side, still use it today as a mash tun, & picked up a 36L second hand along the way.

So my only advice is to try & get gear that will cover all steps, if you steep grains or even contemplate it, then it's only a matter of time before going all grain. Sometimes the only impediment to progressing is storage space, & you'll eventually move. I chose my latest rental on the basis of being adequate for brewing. I have a man cave now instead of having to take over the kitchen. yay.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Decided to do a 30L batch, just to see if I can push the equipment so far.

The big changes are:

Bigger esky to mash in (I'm not mashing in the lauter tun - the separateness of it means I can actually mash without high grav).
Takes longer to bring strike volume to size.
Takes longer to lauter - the bigger volume of grain means that there is more height for the runnings to get through.
Takes longer to get to boil temp.

Otherwise a pretty good day, although a bit longer.

Goomba


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## manticle

Nice one Goomba for demonstrating an interpretation of wort production from your experience. Pity it became another esky/3v VS BIAB thread.

Yardy - I use an esky with a copper manifold inspired by your instructions on how to make one (my second to do so and both have so far worked a treat). Alternatives to this are only a good thing for brewers. More than one one way surely? Maybe it depends what you have in the back yard at the time?

Nick: As mentioned, I use a copper manifold and esky. I'd never bag the bag but your assessment of manifolds is lacking at best. Only time I have used hulls was with a weizen and that was only for security. Manifolds and braids work, as do bags. 

Less of the dick measuring pollution


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## hirns

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Decided to do a 30L batch, just to see if I can push the equipment so far.
> 
> The big changes are:
> 
> Bigger esky to mash in (I'm not mashing in the lauter tun - the separateness of it means I can actually mash without high grav).
> Takes longer to bring strike volume to size.
> Takes longer to lauter - the bigger volume of grain means that there is more height for the runnings to get through.
> Takes longer to get to boil temp.
> 
> Otherwise a pretty good day, although a bit longer.
> 
> Goomba




Goomba,

good thread to help others. I too use two 19l Big W pots at the moment in a similar manner to your original posts. I've found that a 28l (2 x 14l )pre boil volume is the go calculated with beersmith and this will generally produce a 21 to 23l batch after trub loss etc(and depending on style of beer). I tend to find that I get issues with boil overs when adding hops if I push past 14l in the pot.

Hopefully, in adding to the thread I will say that my process differs from yours in the following ways.

1. I took the tap out of a 27l esky and added a brass ball valve and braid and I did this by unscrewing the oringinal esky bung and found that I did not need to mod the esky and it can be changed back to the original bung in about three minutes. Didn't need DIY skills for this in my case.

2. This esky is too small for the entire sparge water so I split the sparge water and I add the first half at 91 degrees to get the grain up to sparge temp, let it sit for 15min the drain. The second half of the sparge I add at 82degrees to keep the same sparge temp for my system and leave for 15mins. I do belive that I may need to stop the 15 minutes on the second half as I think that i've at risk of over sparging. Having said that I usually make my preboil gravity.

3. As Ive got three fermenters(but you still only need one) after recirculating the first two liters I sparge into a fermenter so that I have a consistant mix and then take a gravity reading.

4. My modern stove won't bring any more than about 12l to boil so I leave one pot on the stove and boil a for 90 to 60 minutes on a three ring burner outside. I boil hard for 60 or ninety to increase the evaporation rate as once the boil is over I had a frozen block of ice (preboiled water) to the pot and whirlpool before syphoning into the fermenter which then sits in an the bath tub whilst I repeat the process for the second half of the batch before adding this to the fermentor. The heavy boil allows me to add the add the 4l of ice and I usually still need to add chilled water to bring the og down to where it needs to be. My brewtime is almost doubled, as the second 14l has been on the stove it comes to the boil after only a few minutes but I still need to do the second 60 to 90min boil so this is my biggest PIA. A larger pot would bring things back under control and this will be my next upgrade. 


I will probably try no chill one day but I'm a bit concerned that when I add the second 1/2 of the batch to the cube then the overall temp may not be enough to kill any nasties even if I have sterilized the cube.

Thanks for sharing your process.


Hirns


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

No worries hirns.

I have an advantage in that I pushed it to about 17L per pot and didn't experience boilovers and my ceramic rental home quality cooktop can do two pots in one.

I do no-chill for the occasional batch - mainly those with no late additions, only 60min additions reeled back appropriately.

Like I said at the outset - the biggest reason for it, is that AG brewing can be done with almost any equipment, any budget, any DIY skills. It's just a matter of being adaptive and understanding the basics.

Goomba


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## Truman42

Great tutorial Goomba

I have just acquired another 18 litre urn and was thinking about using it to acheive 22 litre batches utilizing 2 x 18 litre urns.

The plan was this.

Calculate a grain bill for a 22 litre batch in brewmate. Mash in urn number 1, then pull the bag and drain half of the volume into the second urn.
Check the SG and dilute with boiled water to reach my expected start of boil gravity in both urns.

While waiting for the boil to start in both urns, sparge in my bucket and split the sparge between both urns.

Do a second sparge and split again pouring half into each urn and saving the remainder for evap loss at 20 mins to go. 

Split my hop additions between both urns.

At EOB I should have around 12-13 litres in both urns which should give me around 22 litres into my fermenter.

Im thinking this will be easier to manage than my current practice of keeping the volume as close to 18 litres as possible and then only getting around 16 litres into the cube. Any reason why this wouldnt work?


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## [email protected]

Truman said:


> Great tutorial Goomba
> 
> I have just acquired another 18 litre urn and was thinking about using it to acheive 22 litre batches utilizing 2 x 18 litre urns.
> 
> The plan was this.
> 
> Calculate a grain bill for a 22 litre batch in brewmate. Mash in urn number 1, then pull the bag and drain half of the volume into the second urn.
> Check the SG and dilute with boiled water to reach my expected start of boil gravity in both urns.
> 
> While waiting for the boil to start in both urns, sparge in my bucket and split the sparge between both urns.
> 
> Do a second sparge and split again pouring half into each urn and saving the remainder for evap loss at 20 mins to go.
> 
> Split my hop additions between both urns.
> 
> At EOB I should have around 12-13 litres in both urns which should give me around 22 litres into my fermenter.
> 
> Im thinking this will be easier to manage than my current practice of keeping the volume as close to 18 litres as possible and then only getting around 16 litres into the cube. Any reason why this wouldnt work?



Just my 2c, but for me it would seem a lot easier to split the grain bill in half and do 2 single infusion, no sparge, mash in each urn, boil and split hop additions, combine in cubes at the end. 
A lot less stuffing around.


----------



## Truman42

Beer4U said:


> Just my 2c, but for me it would seem a lot easier to split the grain bill in half and do 2 single infusion, no sparge, mash in each urn, boil and split hop additions, combine in cubes at the end.
> A lot less stuffing around.


I buy my grain from G&G already milled but I suppose theres no reason why I couldn't order it as two single duplicate 11 litre batches and do it as you say. Certainly would be easier than sparging etc and the grain bill would be a lot easier to handle.


----------



## Nick JD

Truman said:


> I buy my grain from G&G already milled but I suppose theres no reason why I couldn't order it as two single duplicate 11 litre batches and do it as you say. Certainly would be easier than sparging etc and the grain bill would be a lot easier to handle.



If you are going to do two duplicate batches ... why not do two different ones? 

Or, why not get some bigger gear if you want bigger batches?


----------



## [email protected]

Truman said:


> I buy my grain from G&G already milled but I suppose theres no reason why I couldn't order it as two single duplicate 11 litre batches and do it as you say. Certainly would be easier than sparging etc and the grain bill would be a lot easier to handle.



Do you have kitchen scales? weigh it out yourself, no need to get 2 separate bags, i have done this many times with pre milled grain from G & G.

If you have dead space at the top of mash in your urn, insulate with foil and / or polystyrene.
Temp loss is the only down side to doing smaller mashes, as long as you insulate well, around and above its fine.


----------



## Truman42

Beer4U said:


> Do you have kitchen scales? weigh it out yourself, no need to get 2 separate bags, i have done this many times with pre milled grain from G & G.
> 
> If you have dead space at the top of mash in your urn, insulate with foil and / or polystyrene.
> Temp loss is the only down side to doing smaller mashes, as long as you insulate well, around and above its fine.



But if I get one bag and split it, will it matter if I dont get the same grains of equal quantities in both batches, with regards to sg etc? I suppose it doesn't because if my sg is different in each urn it will average out once combined in the cube anyway.


----------



## Truman42

Nick JD said:


> If you are going to do two duplicate batches ... why not do two different ones?



Thats a good point Nick, I suppose I could and even just use the one recipe as a duplicate for styles Ive done before and really like.



> Or, why not get some bigger gear if you want bigger batches?



Because Ive spent enough money on Brew gear as it is and the missus is cracking it with me. I was given both of these urns so for now want to make the most of them.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

If you have a grain with DMS precursors, adding sparge water with 20 minutes to go might give you some DMS in the brew.

And rather than dilute the original runnings with boiled water, why not put the first lot of sparge runnings into it?

The other major thing I have, is that I really put this together to show that with little cost and a bit of ingenuity, you can do a full size batch on the stove.

To be honest, if you want to buy another urn, I'd have to agree with Nick_JD and say 'why not get some bigger gear'.

My 2nd big w pot was $12 - it's a low cost alternative. And the extra bit of pfaffing about with grain is worth it, given the budgetary constraint.

A 2nd 18L urn won't be low cost ( assume), so the extra pfaffing about mightn't be worth it, given you can pick up an urn for around $270 from CB. I'm assuming that 2 18L urns would be at least this much, whereas 2 x 19L pots from big w won't be. I know the bird has flown the coup - given you have already acquired it.

For the record, given you have the 2nd urn, if you had the esky and the desire to do the lautering, I would:

Heat strike water in urn (or two).
Mash in esky (and heat sparge water in one of the urns)
Lauter, recirculate, then run the high grav runnings into urn 1.
Pour in sparge water from urn with hot water. Split high grav runnings into now empty urn.
Run off sparge runnings 50/50 to each urn, and boil.

Otherwise, just do a dual BIAB.

Maybe do a batch with each method and decide which works for you - if you have an esky, then it'll cost you $12 in buckets to have a go at lautering. If you like this method, great. If not, you know how to BIAB, so you can continue with that.

Goomba


----------



## Truman42

Thanks Goomba, another method to consider. I do have an esky well suited for the job. I acquired both urns for free so thats why I dont want to upgrade to a 40 litre just yet.

I also have a BigW pot but my stoves a convection in the new house so it wont work, unless a buy a gas burner which is more expense.


----------



## [email protected]

Truman said:


> But if I get one bag and split it, will it matter if I dont get the same grains of equal quantities in both batches, with regards to sg etc? I suppose it doesn't because if my sg is different in each urn it will average out once combined in the cube anyway.



Sorry to keep taking this thread :icon_offtopic: 

I think you will find that the grain , especially after weighing it out will be mixed well enough that both mashes will be pretty close to the same.

As i said i have done it, i have ended up with exactly the same gravity coming from both mashes, this does rely on all other things being equal.


----------



## Deebo

Not sure if this is the right place to ask. but I'll ask anyway

I went straight to BIAB and was wondering how long does an average mash tun take to drain with a manifold? (I realise this is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string.. just after a rough idea).

Reason I ask is that I was watching the guys brewing on Neil Morrisy's Risky Business show on SBS2 the other day and watching them waiting for their mash tun to drain looked really slow? (It was their first time so maybe they just did something wrong?)

Have a few of the handy pails.. probably slightly easier to clean them than a BIAB Bag and looks like might end up with clearer wort and possibly less trub.
Any trick to drilling all those holes without cracking the base ?


----------



## sim

trick to drilling plastic without it cracking is to stop it flexing and moving as the drill goes in and out, so put a block of wood underneath. also always keep the drill spinning from before it goes into and untill its pulled out of the plastic.

heating up a piece of wire and pushing that through works well too. like a hot knife through butter!


----------



## manticle

Drilling backwards (ie drill in reverse) also works well.


----------



## Adr_0

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Requires little equipment, over and above BIAB or anything else.
> 
> *2 pots, means I will get better efficiency than Maxi-BIAB for a similar amount of effort.*
> 
> Can be done in the kitchen on the stove top.
> 
> *Far clearer wort, with far less break - a distinct advantage for 2 pots, given I do lose a considerable amount to trub.*
> 
> Can do it whilst under the influence.
> 
> Disadvantages:
> 
> Costs an extra $14 for a lauter tun. If you don't 2 pot, then another pot as well (my 2nd pot was $12 on special at Big W).
> 
> As noted above, this can be adjusted to chill or no chill. If this were my house APA, I'd be chilling, but seriously the brew day was over in 3 hours, and I'll run off the wort and pitch tomorrow.
> 
> Hope this helps someone. I'm a big believer in sharing info for the common good and this is my contribution.
> 
> Goomba


Firstly, awesome thread and the whole point is that it may prompt a brewer to go "I didn't think of that, I might try it." etc. etc. So much like and goob job.

Just quick one on the efficiency with two pots... do you mean you essentially have two burners, so increased power and increased boiloff, rather than a single burner struggling a bit with a large BIAB volume? Otherwise, can you clarify why two pots would give better efficiency?

And on the second point, can you clarify how your wort is clearer and get far less trub with two pots?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

The increase efficiency is over "Maxi-BIAB" - which is where you use one 19L Big W sized pot (or similar) but you use less water to more grain, end up with high gravity and then dilute back. So instead of doing Nick_JD's 9L on the stove, you can get a 21L batch from the stove with the same equipment, just with diluting back.

I've spoken to RdeVjun about this at length and the idea of maxi BIAB is to get wort out at minimum fuss and less equipment than even I use. But you do drop efficiency. 

You can sparge, but that's up to you.

So having two pots, lower gravity means that you're not going to drop efficiency points with 'sugaz' getting stuck in the grain. It's more fuss than Maxi-BIAB, but you get more from the same quantity of grain.

Yes, you have two burners. You get increased power and increased burnoff, over and above one large pot on a single burner. This has nothing (much) to do with efficiency in terms of 'how much sugaz you get from the grain' (which is what we generally define efficiency as), but more the fact that you don't have to waste time waiting for a stove to heat up a massive pot. You have two burners heating two smaller pots.

So yes, you get increased boiloff. It's quicker and easier in that regard. I'm currently using a 36L pot on two burners on the stove. It's a pain comparative.

2nd point - wort is clearer. That comes from the lautering process. Lautering allows the grain bed to act as filter - which generally filters out quite a lot of protein. As a result, I get less break (which is, yep - protein). Because I have 2 trubs, courtesy of 2 pots, this pegs back some efficiency I lose to trub loss x 2.

Another advantage I don't think I mentioned:

As I'm toward the end of mash time, I start heating the sparge water in one big w pot. As I put the mash into the lauter, the sparge water is ready-ish. I'll run the first cloudy runnings off (remember point 2) and recirculate manually. Then I'll start my proper runnings into 1 pot. When done, I'll put sparge water in. I now have an empty pot. I split the first runnings between the two pots and then start the tap for sparging, splitting the resultant liquor between the pots.

I'm never more than 1-2 grav points at the end different between the two pots, which has a negligible effect on any hopping regime.

Hope this helps out.

I may get a couple of Big W pots in Hobart next week and I _may_ make a youtube video on this. One member has (more tongue in cheek) requested it.


----------



## Adr_0

Awesome. Regarding the clarity, fair enough and I didn't realise it could be a 'problem' (open to interpretation) in BIAB beers. The opportunity to recirc through the grain bed helps this - again, if it's actually a problem - and is another advantage if you decide that you aren't happy with the clarity of the initial runnings.

Nice.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Adr_0 said:


> Awesome. Regarding the clarity, fair enough and I didn't realise it could be a 'problem' (open to interpretation) in BIAB beers. The opportunity to recirc through the grain bed helps this - again, if it's actually a problem - and is another advantage if you decide that you aren't happy with the clarity of the initial runnings.
> 
> Nice.


I don't see it as a problem or not a problem - there's a lot of debate, lots of it anecdotal that says that protein isn't bad flavour wise, and in fact great flavour wise. Others are looking for clarity as an aesthetic thing - make sure their beer, especially if kegged 'looks' the part.

The other advantage I'm not sure I've made obvious is that with BIAB the lifting of the bag in BIAB can be a messy, burn inducing thing. I've re-found that out lately, I end up with a bit of splashed wort, though I've got it under control. Also, if you don't own a skyhook or have a missus happy with the thing tied on a door handle, you're kind of holding and squeezing and then dunk sparging in a bucket (again, can be messy, if you're unco like me).

With lautering, it's a large jug moving it to the next vessel and lots easier and cleaner in that regards.

Glad to be of help. :chug:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Big W pots obtained, video will be forthcoming when I can get around to brewing/videoing and editing.


----------



## Pickaxe

Hey Goomba,

What sort of loss to trub are you talking about? What volume from each pot do you lose?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

At a guess, probably about 2L per pot. The pots are (relatively) narrow, so the trub settles down. With trub losses taken into account, I'm generally around the 75-79% efficiency mark, and have hit 83% with this method. 

If I'm no chilling, I may not even bother filtering trub, as it settles down in the cube, meaning the 2xtrub equation doesn't even exist, as it's only one cube, and therefore one lot of trub to pull the wort from.

Truth be told, I'm sort of a subscriber to the school of though that cold break doesn't seem to affect quality of my beer - certainly I've won awards with it and without it. I have no firm opinion on this, but I thought (when I made the thread) that putting that out there will provide a balanced opinion of the pros/cons of the method for those with a different opinion.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

As promised, video 1, which is how to make a lauter:

In advance, I apologise for:

Dodge camera work,
Dogdy editing
Poor sound
D-grade text.

It's all I could do on a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2.

But hopefully this is useful

http://youtu.be/HqKk_-hZZa0


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Okey dokey, this is the first brew day video.

No ETA on when I'll do the rest, I have dinner to cook and other stuff to do.

This is the 'bringing the strike water up to temp'. Self explanatory, but hey, I thought I'd whack it in. There might be someone who will put the jargon, the process and the lightbulb in the same room and be happy to learn this way.

http://youtu.be/ZfCdwyf_-qc


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Mash in. 

I didn't edit most of this, just to give an idea of how much dough ball removal is part of mash in. He he he.

http://youtu.be/EMxAxz-BKtI


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Post mash - this is the lauter (removal of liquor from grains) and sparge (rinse grains to get remaining sugaz) stage

http://youtu.be/eGQez8Lj1Qo


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

This is just to show the pots with equal amounts (ish) of liquor ready for the boil.

I put a subtitle that says "put in hops 50/50 to each pot" - obviously this is according to your hopping schedule, not necessarily during the pre-boil process.

http://youtu.be/fv4xoeV7HXw


----------



## DU99

interesting process..  ..i gather the foil in the esky is for heat retention


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

DU99 said:


> interesting process..  ..i gather the foil in the esky is for heat retention


Yep. Have a bit of headspace in this esky (as opposed to the old one in Brissie which was 25L), so foil helps with keeping the heat in between the mash and the deadspace at the top.

As I've always said, this isn't about "this is the most amazing method eva!" - it's about being resourceful and that you can make beer with cheap equipment and a bit of ingenuity.


----------



## Adr_0

Nice - love your work LRG.


----------



## Pickaxe

Just got 2 buckets and a lid for $30 from a local catering supply place. Burnings were sold out.

Drilled, tapped and ready to go next week for my 3rd AG. 

Brings the grand total of my ag setup to $68. Almost regret my $27 grain bag purchase whose seem split first ag, and my 80km rounds trip to spotlight for $8 of voile.
For me, this setup is ideal. I already 2 pot boil, can't alter my esky, as i only have one, and am hoping this lessens my 6l loss to trub on my first 2 ags. Massive loss. I can't really biab coz my stove is Shit and I don't wanna grt into gas fittings and cut kegs and a chiller on my first few ags. Can't afford it anyway.

Not redundant at all. Quite relevant to me. Will post results next brew day, but this I'd exciting for a new to ag brewer to easily up eff points, get clearer wort and not be limited.in batch size. Don't have the uptime nor inclination to brew small.

+1 from me.


----------



## Pickaxe

Looks like the kids enjoy getting into a brew day too, goomba? At least when they get older they can bloodywell make there own! Hahaha


----------



## Yob

Love it... shhhh :lol:

Good stuff, invention, the bastard son of desperation


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Yob said:


> Love it... shhhh :lol:
> 
> Good stuff, invention, the bastard son of desperation


And excessively poor DIY skills.


----------



## technobabble66

Great set of vids, LRG.

It's a brilliant display of how beer can really bring the family together :lol:

Great example of how to brew AG effectively for a tiny investment of $'s, but also time & effort, even for someone who's a little time poor & has 3 kids to keep an eye on...


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

4, but the 9 month old was asleep.

The only person that got burned was me, and that was carelessness with pouring hot water.

My biggest problem is if that verandah over the toolshed keeps growing, I won't be able to see them around my disappearing feet.


----------



## Rowy

This is a great way to brew. My first couple were done using this, with LRG putting me onto the two bucket idea. I've now moved onto a gas burner and 70l pot BIAB but my two buckets still get used every brew. I've tasted some of LRG's beers and they are great. Some people like to drive Rolls Royce's, some like Hyundais, some people in between, they all get you where you want to go its just about cost, want and need. The individual decides where he or she sits in that equation. It's about beer not a pissing competition.


----------



## mrTbeer

Not redundant at all, this is the basis of Papazian which was the book I read before i found AHB.
I got into BIAB using '30 bucks' thread but actually thinking this might be the shot and also it gives me another bucket for bulk priming.
It's also cheaper than a stainless false bottom for my esky.


----------



## DU99

If you can't find the bucket'[email protected] Bunning's,Masters have a similar line


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

mrTbeer said:


> Not redundant at all, this is the basis of Papazian which was the book I read before i found AHB.
> I got into BIAB using '30 bucks' thread but actually thinking this might be the shot and also it gives me another bucket for bulk priming.
> It's also cheaper than a stainless false bottom for my esky.


Not sure if I mentioned it on the bucket in bucket vid - but making one with the tap - it can double as a bottling bucket for bulk priming - so long as you seal it. Mine isn't, it has a very slow leak (which is fine when I'm lautering, because I can catch it, but not for bottling. When I'm next up to the hardware shop, I'll grab some silicone and seal it up and use it for said purpose.

The thing is, I tried to do the esky, I buggered the esky up (my poor DIY skills) and so this was the by product of working around that.

SWMBO "you are not altering this esky, are you"

Me "No, I know what failure means. Submission!"


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Kmart has them as well near the fishing section.


----------



## Pickaxe

figures to come...


----------



## dago001

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> And excessively poor DIY skills.


All I could see was a trip to the hospital on the horizon - Take the knife of the DIYer. Your drill is shit as well, and deburring you holes with a screwdriver - who woulda thunk?? Oh well, beer quality out weighs brewery quality any day. Now drop me over some beer so I can check that the brewery is working to optimum standards 
Cheers
LagerBomb


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

LagerBomb said:


> All I could see was a trip to the hospital on the horizon - Take the knife of the DIYer. Your drill is shit as well, and deburring you holes with a screwdriver - who woulda thunk?? Oh well, beer quality out weighs brewery quality any day. Now drop me over some beer so I can check that the brewery is working to optimum standards
> Cheers
> LagerBomb


Kinda doesn't help it when most of my DIY stuff wasn't brought with me (and I borrowed a better corded drill last time I did it). But yeah, every time I do anything, my Missus gets the kids ready for a trip to the hospital. The car, excepted. Fixed back lights, fixed window motor, serviced car - I can actually deal with cars, because they make sense to me like computers do. And I'm okay with a spanner.

Having said that, I'm not yet on first name basis at Latrobe (well, one doctor excepted) Hospital. That's a good sign, given how little equpment I had.

But doesn't it show - I had _nothing_, even by my admittedly equiment-poor standards - a dodgy steak knife, a 10 year old $12 Kmart drill and still managed to build a brewery.

I'll swap some more beer, if you'd like @Lagerbomb. I'm hanging for some dark beer, but I don't think I'll get around to making any before this cool weather disappears.

Oh, how did you go with that IPA recipe? I'll convert you yet.


----------



## Pickaxe

Goomba, I just put a brass nut on the back of the tap in the lauter bucket, no leak. 

On my third brew with this setup. Eff is at 67% at last brew. Resulting beer is much clearer, trub loss is down. Very happy with the setup. My second brew was extremely clear when I bottled today, so I'm looking forward to drinking that next month. Now I'm just aiming for consistency. First brew I only got 58%, and low final volume, silly errors, but now I'm hitting figures, beersmith is setup for my gear, upwards and onwards.

Extremely viable brew method. Now I can focus on other aspects of brewing, like harvesting yeast and refining recipes. Total no brain method for me now. No lifting, just a bit of liquid juggling, just might try and up eff where I can, but 67% is perfect.


----------



## Pickaxe

As far as drlling the bucket, just keep it spinning in and out, then scrub the burrs off with a chisel or screwdriver at worst. It cuts Like butter. Be careful with not making the tap hole too big, and whack a brass nut on the back, plumbing section at bunnings, no silicone required. I used a 6mm multi purpose drill bit (wood/plastic/ etc.). 

25l strike water to mash at 71.
14l sparge water at 81. 
Bloody easy.

Like goomba said, my gravity in each pot is 1-2 points off at worst, let's me boil well on Shit stove with alfoil floats helping with boil. I chill in laundry tub then let pots to 30ish degrees, then sit out in thr cold air glad wrapped to get to pitch temp (about 2 hours). Will ice the tub in summer.

Easy method, low outlay. Bloody brilliant.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Thanks for that - I reckon I'll do that when I'm at bunnings next, which should be in the next week or two as we have a bulk buy here. I did slightly make a mistake in it, so it has a teeny leak. I want to use it as a bottling bucket as well, so I'll fix it up. I'll grab some silicone for that, and hopefully it'll fix it if the brass nut doesn't.

67% efficiency means you might still have some way to go to get used to it. I'm generally around 75-80% with not much variation. Check your water too, I ended up before I left Brissie, adding some acidulated malt as my tap water got quite alkaline after the 2011 floods and I couldn't figure out why my efficiency was high 60's/low 70s.


----------



## ian4379

i did my first AG today with this method. worked well.

the only issue i had was my stovetop element for the second pot wasnt strong enough to get it to a boil, more like a light simmer, so i did a 60 min boil in the "main" pot that was boiling well, dropped the hops into it, then swapped to second pot onto the bigger element and reduced it for an extra half hour to get the volume down.

i cooled both pots down in the bath.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Good to hear you enjoyed it.

I should put that down as a possible disadvantage to the method - that one element may be less than another. 

My solution would be to put the lid over part of the pot that is on the less powerful element, so it boils well but doesn't overflow. I know others put aluminium contains on top of the wort to float (see pickaxe's post above) and increase boil.

You'll find, due to the peculiarities of the method - you may need to tweak these things. In your case, what you did might end up with a reduced hop optimisation (might!) but it won't be show stopping. The intricate tweaks will come with time.

I'm planning to step mash (another advantage of having two pots - one to heat step mash water, the other to heat mash out or batch sparge water) a Saison when I get around to it. Will post when/if I do it (and if I remember).


----------



## Ives_MD

For those who say this is redundant, this thread has converted a 'talker-about-erer' or a 'should-doer' into an AG brewer. One batch so far, still fermenting. Already converted, wont go back.

Thanks LRG, this method rings true to my shoddy DIY skills too, and just makes more sense to me than BIAB. Hit the targets within few points for temp, volume, OG etc. couldn't be simpler.

Great Stuff


----------



## Elderfi

ian4379 said:


> i did my first AG today with this method. worked well.
> 
> the only issue i had was my stovetop element for the second pot wasnt strong enough to get it to a boil, more like a light simmer, so i did a 60 min boil in the "main" pot that was boiling well, dropped the hops into it, then swapped to second pot onto the bigger element and reduced it for an extra half hour to get the volume down.
> 
> i cooled both pots down in the bath.


Im pretty sure im in the same situation. If I let one pot cool while boiling the other would this cause issues??


----------



## Tahoose

Hey guys did my first AG this week using this week, thanks for all the tips people have shared and LRG for the innovation I'll do a "my first AG with pics topic" soon when I get some more time, I remembered to pick up the brass nut also and tightened it up real good, made the bucket leak proof and was quite solid

Didn't quite hit all my numbers got 8ltrs at 1.054 for about 70% efficiency, but I reckon I could have got more easily, was just impatient to get the boil going...


----------



## jkhlt1210

Great thread very helpful to someone like me looking to take the next step


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Tahoose said:


> Hey guys did my first AG this week using this week, thanks for all the tips people have shared and LRG for the innovation I'll do a "my first AG with pics topic" soon when I get some more time, I remembered to pick up the brass nut also and tightened it up real good, made the bucket leak proof and was quite solid
> 
> Didn't quite hit all my numbers got 8ltrs at 1.054 for about 70% efficiency, but I reckon I could have got more easily, was just impatient to get the boil going...


Did you ever get around to it, tahoose - the pictorial topic?




jkhlt1210 said:


> Great thread very helpful to someone like me looking to take the next step


I was hoping it was! Good luck on your AG adventures, wherever they may lead you.


----------



## Tahoose

Yeah here's the link, I posted it in the AG Section.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/77841-popping-my-ag-cherry-dsga/

Have done 4 batches now, 3 half batches and a attempt at a higher gravity batch to be diluted down, (didn't go completely as planned but I was half cut).

I think the sweet spot for me is 12ltr batches as I can only heat 1 x 19ltr Big W pot on my stove, but I'm looking into going electric and then I can move out of the kitchen and into the garage.

LRG from your video it looked like you had a simular esky to what I have, do you loose much heat from that? 

Btw the second brew I had 88% efficiency (my crush is quite fine and I use voile to line the bucket)

edit: efficiency


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Nope, none at all. If it is (almost or actually) full, as my last 25L batch was, then it's fine as is.

For smaller batches, I put a sheet/s of alfoil on top of the mash to help with heat retention and to negate any dead space issue in the mash time.

That last one was over 90 minutes and I didn't lose a degree. Woot!

If I ever get the top cut off this legally acquired keg, I'll probably run one batch outside on gas, and one inside on the stove. 

This stove works not as well as the previous, but still adequately to get a rolling boil if I mostly put the lid on (but not completely as you get boilovers).


----------



## Pickaxe

I have altered this method to go two pot with a bag in an insulated esky. Still 25l mash, 13l sparge, the Swiss voile bag drains quicker, but the twopot stovetop method is the same. Saves me time, beers are the same. Hitting good efficiency. Now my bucket Lauter sits under the stairs. 
I also bought two induction stove elements, cheap $40 each delivered and find it better than using my electric stove and they work identically add far as when I hit boil, getting to desired temp etc. Highly recommend for apartment brewers.

pickaxe


----------



## Pickaxe

By the way - induction stove elements get me a better boil than two crap stovetops I've had in the different units I've rented. Nice rolling boil for ad long as I want. Perfect actually.

pickaxe


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## jkhlt1210

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Did you ever get around to it, tahoose - the pictorial topic?
> 
> 
> 
> I was hoping it was! Good luck on your AG adventures, wherever they may lead you.


 Lord Raja I think I have maybe done my first of many boils!! It was only a partial recipe but how exciting!! I did a recipe suggested to me on here with a Coopers Draught tin. With a 25 minute hop boil along with some LDME!! Small but exciting! Any suggestions on a simple first All Grain recipe???? Maybe a pale ale? I'll be using your method with the buckets


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## Tahoose

Pickaxe said:


> I have altered this method to go two pot with a bag in an insulated esky. Still 25l mash, 13l sparge, the Swiss voile bag drains quicker, but the twopot stovetop method is the same. Saves me time, beers are the same. Hitting good efficiency. Now my bucket Lauter sits under the stairs.
> I also bought two induction stove elements, cheap $40 each delivered and find it better than using my electric stove and they work identically add far as when I hit boil, getting to desired temp etc. Highly recommend for apartment brewers.
> 
> pickaxe



Hey mate are these free standing elements? Any suggestion on where to get them from, a pic would be awesome if you get the chance


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## Droopy Brew

A question m' Lord...

I have just discovered this thread and like the idea. I have a 60L SS pot I was going to fit up with an electric element and tap and use for BIAB.
However I see the advantages with this system.
Problem is I can't do it with the one big pot as I need one for heating sparge water while the other captures the first wort.

So what I was thinking- rather than using a couple of 20L buckets, I can get my hands on a couple of 50L plastic tubs (same shape as a fermentor) which I could turn into a lauter.
That way I can pour in my grains and wort from the esky and then add my sparge water all in together and then lauter the whole lot back into my big pot.
But... will this be any good? Will the sparge water mixing with the wort and grain from the esky just dilute it or will this process essentially give me the same result but only using the one large pot that I can then use to boil up without the need for a stove or second pot?

Be keen to hear your thoughts.


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## thylacine

Droopy Brew said:


> A question m' Lord...
> 
> I have just discovered this thread and like the idea. I have a 60L SS pot I was going to fit up with an electric element and tap and use for BIAB.
> However I see the advantages with this system.
> Problem is I can't do it with the one big pot as I need one for heating sparge water while the other captures the first wort.
> 
> So what I was thinking- rather than using a couple of 20L buckets, I can get my hands on a couple of 50L plastic tubs (same shape as a fermentor) which I could turn into a lauter.
> That way I can pour in my grains and wort from the esky and then add my sparge water all in together and then lauter the whole lot back into my big pot.
> But... will this be any good? Will the sparge water mixing with the wort and grain from the esky just dilute it or will this process essentially give me the same result but only using the one large pot that I can then use to boil up without the need for a stove or second pot?
> 
> Be keen to hear your thoughts.


With a 60L pot, some at BIAB.com question sparking at all.. eg.

http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2558

'Guru' Pistol Pete: "...Lars and Bob have got it Yetti




. This is actually one of the things in The Misinformation Thread. It's a common question and a good one Yetti as there is a lot of misinformation out there on it. I've written a lot on this over the years but it's all buried away in different posts. Instead of writing a whole lot, what might be more sensible is if I try and dig up some of those buried posts and link them here. (It might help me also see a way of putting the info into a single thread.) [EDIT: Well, I tried



]

There's two myths to negate here. The first is sparging increases kettle efficiency. The second, which I've never heard before but you have mentioned, is that it increases quality.

*Sparging (or dunking) does not increase quality.*

I think the best thing I have written on this aspect would be a little series of stories called "The Sweet Liquor Shop" posts. These explain the different methods of producing sweet liquor and corrects a few myths. Here you will learn the difference between true no-sparging, pure BIAB (passive sparging)and traditional brewing (active sparging) methods.

Sweet Liquor Shop 1
Sweet Liquor Shop 2
Sweet Liquor Shop 3

*Sparging (or dunking) does not increase kettle or any other type of efficiency.*

This is the most common myth and it is a very hard one to understand psychologically. There are many things which lead us to believe that sparging would wash more 'sugars' out of our grain bed. What's more, you'll constantly read posts on how someone's "efficiency" improved when they sparged. So what's going on here?

Firstly, it is natural to believe that sparging would be better. For example, our clothes in the washing machine are washed and then usually rinsed twice just as a lot of batch spargers do. But, a washing machine is not the same as brewing. The washing machine has a spin cycle before and after each rinse and this makes a big difference. Imagine if your washing machine just let the dirty water drain out. iF you stop and think about it, it actually makes no difference whether you put the total amount of water in to the wash first (as in pure BIAB) or in stages (as with sparging of any sort). If you collected the water that came out of the wash, you would find it to be just as dirty whether the water was added in a single hit or in three stages. In other words, you would still wash the same amount of dirt (sugar) out of the clothes.

The above concept can be a little non-intuitive to get your head around but we also have tested it in real life. THere's a thread on there where I did six side by side brews of active sparging and passive sparging (pure, full-volume BIAB). On average, thee was a 1% difference in kettle efficiency which basically means nothing. It's not the first time I have done side by sides on this.

There's a few erroneous reasons why you'll often see posts that say their efficiency improved with sparging. I just want to cover one here. Imagine a new BIABer had been doing a 60 minute mash (as they are often mistakenly told to do). Imagine then that they do a 60 minute mash followed by a thirty minute dunk while heating their main body of sweet liquor to boiling point. Their efficiency into kettle will go up but not because they are sparging. It is going up because they have increased their mash time - nothing more. If they had just mashed with all their water for 90 minutes, they would have had the same result. Such posts are all variations of this. The numbers are based on a comparison of just two brews and nearly always, something has changed in the process, e.g. the second brew is a ower gravity brew.

*In what situations should I sparge?*

The only time when it is really appropriate to sparge is when you are unable to full-volume mash and you are doing a very high gravity brew or are wishing to avoid a lot of dilution.

The BIABacus is a great tool, the only tool, that shows you the interplay between grain bill, sparging, dilutions and vessel volumes. The first thing we need to work from is the understanding that if you can fit all your water in the kettle at the start of the mash, then do so because thee is no advantage not to.

If your kettle is not big enough to handle all the water in the beginning, if you do sparge, on a normal gravity brew, after you pull the bag, there's actually not going to be that much room in the kettle to even add much water you actively sparge. So, the question then becomes, "Is it worth an extra heat source and vessel to handle this sparging process to save a bit of grain?" The higher the grain bill, the more likely the answer is to be, "Yes," simply because there will be more space available in the kettle after the bag is pulled. That is the only reason.

So, sparging should be viewed as very much a last resort method.

What else are we missing here Yetti? You or anyone else, please ask any questions you have on this here…"





PP


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Love the BIABrewer.info guys, but some of them can be a bit evangelical about the method. PP has done more to advance BIAB than many others, but has a "one true way" view of it as well. To each their own. 

Truth be told, my method isn't BIAB at all, so it's not a question of 'the true method' for me. Mine is a different method.

A separate bucket in bucket lauter would be great. If you have another pot, where you can heat water on the stove, lauter (which is not the same as sparging at any rate) into the kettle, and use the extra water as sparge water. Or possibly put the initial runnings into your buckets as you said. By doing so, you aren't BIABing, you're running a sort of ghetto 3V type system around your existing equipment, which is what my method sprang from - improvisation, rather than "one right way".

I'm sorry, both as a BIAB brewer and now, sparging increases my efficiency and I prefer it. But in terms of my method, it's moot to bring in BIAB information - as it's not the same method. It'd be like HERMS guys commenting on an aspect of their method in a BIAB thread where that method has no relevance. 

Either way, you'll make beer, and in the process will learn more about how you did it.


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## Droopy Brew

Thanks for the info- will have a good think about both methods again.

I also figured out a way to do it.
Mash in esky
Transfer to normal 20L lauter buckets
Wash out esky then drain first wort into that.
Drop in the pre-heated sparge water
Transfer first wort from esky to pot
Drain sparge water into pot with the first wort
Boil and hop as usual.
Have a HB.

Im not so much thinking efficiency will be improved by this method although Im sure there are arguments for and against, but it does appear this will produce a clearer wort?
Not having to set up a hoist and also risk torn/burnt bags are another positive I see with this method.


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## Tahoose

Another thing I use is a couple of 9 ltr buckets from bunnings, they are 72c each and have 1-9 litre marks on the inside.

Helps me measure out; how much water I need for strike water, how much I need for sparge water and keep track of how much wort has been put into the kettle. 

I use green, you can also use, blue or red or whatever colour you wish....


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Yup. Anything that works.

As has been said on other beginner methods, the idea isn't that this particular, exact method is the important thing. Sure, copy to within a whisker and make beer, but if you do, make sure you continue reading about concepts, methods and theory - you know the stuff that matters, mash temp/step mashing, lautering, sparging, hop additions, yeast health and so on. Don't copy the process like a programmed robot - think, learn, adapt, adjust.

The big thing with this (or the all grain under $30 thread), is that it's about cheap equipment, mostly already available at home, or stuff that, if you get it, will have another use around the house should you need to jettison it. It's about improvising, thrift, being creative with your use of household items and not being scared that, if you don't have the biggest bit of bling, or the cash to grab a $300 urn, you can still brew an AG beer (and thus learn on the job), until you do get the equipment (or not).

As I mentioned to tahoose, if I want to spend money, a new kegging system would be the first cab off the rank, so I can get the beer I'm already brewing into kegs (which saves me time, stress and effort).


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## sb944

I have used a slightly different 2 pot method twice now, and not enjoying it. Mash and boil work fine. I haven't gotten a sparge right yet. My temperatures are always wildly off, due to so much grain and so little water used, and the sparge seems too squished to get enough out. But the biggest pain is chilling 2 pots. It's a difficult part of the night, with time slipping away, and made tougher if you are swapping pots and trying to get everything down to pitching temp in the middle of summer. If you like "no chill", I think the idea is OK though, it just means you've got more work another day. You can definitely get a decent strength brew to 23L in one night's work, with only a mash/sparge vessel, and 2 cheap pots on an existing stove, it's just a tough night in my opinion.

Tonight I'll try out my first single batch BIAB, 45L SS pot, stove top + 2400W element ($195 all up), no sparge. I had a test run last night, and can honestly say everything being bigger is a pain, but had no issues getting the boil or chilling. I expect a little less efficiency with no sparge, so will aim for 20L, and go from there.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I'd have to agree, works well if you no chill. Chilling can be done, I used to freeze blocks of water in the freezer, put it in the sink, get it down to "the side of the pan doesn't burn my hand" and then refill the water in the sink, chucking in the blocks of ice (not in the liquor). I got it down to about 20 minutes worth of work for two pots that way (in BNE summer).

Stuck sparges are one of those things that can happen on any equipment, unfortunately. Ironing that bug out is a mission - sometimes I'll be fine, sometimes I won't. If you have access to milled grain (as opposed to pulverised in a grinder), this will help a considerable amount.

Not sure about your temperature fluctuations - I'm almost always spot on within half a degree. When you factor in strike temp, are you adjusting (I use Brewmate) for the temperature of the grain. My usual ratio is about 3:1 (3L of water for strike per 1kg of grain).

You also touched on the advantage of two pots (such as it is) vs on large batch - it splits the lifting into two smaller bits.

Sorry to hear you've had issues. Don't forget that any system will take a few tries to iron out its idiosyncrasies (hence the multiple threads on Braumeister, BIAB, HERMS, RIMS and the like) - now you've shelled out for some equipment, persist before giving up or buying more.

For most people, this method will 'dip their toes in the water' and they'll move onto bigger equipment, more conventional methods. For me, I'm tight, and I've ironed out a lot of the kinks due to repetition (though still getting the odd stuck sparge).


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## idzy

First time I have seen this thread Goomba. Must say well done. Looks like a great method for an entry level system/setup. I might try this out some time for smaller experimental batches.

Cheers,
Idzy


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## Tahoose

Bought a 2nd Pot yesterday, so that's another $19 from my AG equipment budget,  the aim of today is brew 2 x 24 ltr batches and no chill into cubes.

Brewing back to back, it's gonna be a big day....

The aim is, when I get my shiny new kegs in a few weeks, I'll prime them and put them aside for a few weeks while I start building my keezer. Then when my keezer is ready to rock and roll I'll have a couple of kegs ready to go.

JS 150 lashes clone
Nelson Sauvin/Citra Pale Ale

brew 1 mashing now.


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## stm

Droopy Brew said:


> I have a 60L SS pot I was going to fit up with an electric element and tap and use for BIAB.


Droopy - if you have a 60L pot with a decent element then why not just do regulation full volume BIAB. Only the one vessel (your pot) required, plus maybe one of the 50L tubs to allow the remaining sweet liquor to drain from your bag (once pulled from the pot). You do not need sparge water with full volume BIAB. One of the great attractions of BIAB is simplicity and not having lots of vessels and not transferring wort all over the place.

LRG does it his way because he doesn't have a bloody great pot or a way to boil it even if he did.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

stm said:


> LRG does it his way because he doesn't have a bloody great pot or a way to boil it even if he did.


This.

If you do go down the full BIAB route, you'll likely need something to pull the bag up and your element will need to be up to scratch (and something to cover the element, if you wish to do stepped mash regimes/mash out in the pot).

Without re-opening the sparge vs non-sparge debate (there's enough info here and over the internet on both sides of that debate), you can choose to sparge or not to sparge, based on your existing equipment.

I much prefer lautering over lifting/hoisting bags- but again, this comes down to personal preference - if you note in the first post, I've listed the pros and cons of this method as I see it and have been fair and objective in doing so. However, some things aren't pros/cons - they are just preferences. By lautering, I don't lift bags and I can push this system to its volume limits. This suits me. Another person will prefer the 'one pot' aspect of BIAB. 

BIAB was designed around full volume mashing, long mash, no sparge, but as I did it on the stove with these pots, I needed to sparge, as I simply didn't have the space in the pot to push out a full volume as I wanted it, and it required me to do high grav mashing and then sparge to get to the same result, and so the 'one pot' advantage dried up for me. 

Again, I'd like to stress, that this isn't a seasoned perfect, solves all problems method. It is simply an improvised method that requires minimal outlay, minimal extra equipment (such as urns, or gas burners or larger pots) whilst still making excellent beer in good quantities (my standard batch is 25L, and I've got 38L from this). 

It is foremost a demonstration that with the desire to improvise on and with existing equipment and with not much money, you can get into full volume AG brewing or reallocate funds towards kegging or smoking meat or making salami or whatever, whilst still producing AG, show quality beer.

There are better methods, there are worse methods. There are methods that cost more. This isn't about any method being better than another. Heck, even within BIAB, there are different adjustments within the method that each brewer makes according to preference. None of this is wrong, it is just different.

In the end, it won't matter how good or how bad your equipment is - you need get the basics downpat to produce good beer. And that is equipment-agnostic.


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## Droopy Brew

stm said:


> Droopy - if you have a 60L pot with a decent element then why not just do regulation full volume BIAB. Only the one vessel (your pot) required, plus maybe one of the 50L tubs to allow the remaining sweet liquor to drain from your bag (once pulled from the pot). You do not need sparge water with full volume BIAB. One of the great attractions of BIAB is simplicity and not having lots of vessels and not transferring wort all over the place.
> 
> LRG does it his way because he doesn't have a bloody great pot or a way to boil it even if he did.


This is why.


Droopy Brew said:


> Im not so much thinking efficiency will be improved by this method although Im sure there are arguments for and against, but it does appear this will produce a clearer wort?
> Not having to set up a hoist and also risk torn/burnt bags are another positive I see with this method.


Although that said I am swaying back towards BIAb as well (stalled sparges dont sound fun) . I think initially I am going to use a 3 ring burner I can get my hands on rather than the electric element to see how I go.
All I need to do then is install the stainless BV tap I have into the vessel , buy a Bag for $20 at the HBS and buy a pulley to mount above the work station.
Then I will work on getting an immersion chiller and whirlpool- they look like good bits of gear, adn then a recirc pump looks to be good, and then.....

****- see what you blokes have done to me? Cant say I wasnt warned but!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

A good burner is a must for 60L.

I get clearer wort, but then you do have to battle with stuck or at least slow lautering/sparges at times. Anecdotally from my experience, generally the two are mutually inclusive.

It's a bit like hoisting the bag and waiting for it all to drain.

One thing I can do (this works with either method) is just to allow a fairly loose-ish grain bed (or bag), and let the wort clear in the no-chill cube (by the break settling out).

On the What's in the glass threads, you'll notice I'm getting some very clear beers doing this, and if this IPA that I've bottled works out - I reckon I'll have nailed 'hoppy' beers without needing to chill.


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## Droopy Brew

Is that just by throwing more hops at it or introducing them later or is there another method.

I wont be brewing 60L- just the standard 20-23L batches but the pot has 60L capacity. May come in handy for when I try and Imperial stout or Barley wine or some equally stupid 1.110 plus beer.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Droopy Brew said:


> Is that just by throwing more hops at it or introducing them later or is there another method.
> 
> I wont be brewing 60L- just the standard 20-23L batches but the pot has 60L capacity. May come in handy for when I try and Imperial stout or Barley wine or some equally stupid 1.110 plus beer.


I honestly don't know what the dead space will do for you - especially if you have no lid or anything to keep the heat in whilst you bring the water to temp.

I've done a barleywine (on oak) - about 15L it came out. Pretty easy to brew too.

Anywho. Question you asked. I prefer a 60/10 split on my hops for an IPA (and 30/10 for APA), that is - the 60 minute additions are for bittering, 10 minute for aroma/flavour (or 30 for bitterness). 15 IBU of bitterness, the balance as flavour additions.

With no-chill, I cube hop of sorts. That is, I transfer the steaming wort to the cube and add in what would be my 10 minute additions to the cube afterward. It seems to work. Those sort of additions are what was stopping me staying with no chill for hoppy beers (as I'd done it for bitters and other 'early addition' centric beers).

Since you will transfer the wort to a fermenter the next day (or whatever), you'll rack the break and hops away from the liquor, so no issues with ongoing 'taint' during fermentation.


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## jkhlt1210

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I honestly don't know what the dead space will do for you - especially if you have no lid or anything to keep the heat in whilst you bring the water to temp.
> 
> I've done a barleywine (on oak) - about 15L it came out. Pretty easy to brew too.
> 
> Anywho. Question you asked. I prefer a 60/10 split on my hops for an IPA (and 30/10 for APA), that is - the 60 minute additions are for bittering, 10 minute for aroma/flavour (or 30 for bitterness). 15 IBU of bitterness, the balance as flavour additions.
> 
> With no-chill, I cube hop of sorts. That is, I transfer the steaming wort to the cube and add in what would be my 10 minute additions to the cube afterward. It seems to work. Those sort of additions are what was stopping me staying with no chill for hoppy beers (as I'd done it for bitters and other 'early addition' centric beers).
> 
> Since you will transfer the wort to a fermenter the next day (or whatever), you'll rack the break and hops away from the liquor, so no issues with ongoing 'taint' during fermentation.


 Sorry if this is a stupid question but in next few weeks I want to attempt my first AG brew using your method. Just wondering how many litres of water go into the mash tun with the grains? And how many litres for sparge?


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## Tahoose

jkhlt1210 said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question but in next few weeks I want to attempt my first AG brew using your method. Just wondering how many litres of water go into the mash tun with the grains? And how many litres for sparge?


Best bet is to download brewmate, the standard setting has a 1:3 grain to water ratio and in the brew day mode it will tell you how much water you need to sparge with.

Also has all of the relevant things like strike temps, sparge water temps ect


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## jkhlt1210

Tahoose said:


> Best bet is to download brewmate, the standard setting has a 1:3 grain to water ratio and in the brew day mode it will tell you how much water you need to sparge with.
> 
> Also has all of the relevant things like strike temps, sparge water temps ect


ok cool cheers for that


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## menoetes

Picked up a 26lt esky from gumtree for $15 today as well as 2 x 20lt paint mixing buckets from bunnings (the same as yours as far as I can tell) for $13 each. I already have the 2 x 20lt Big W pots. I'm ready to try my first AG. I've got a few Kmart clearance kits left which I will probably turn into partials but I'm looking forward to trying your AG method, Raja.

Cost in equipment so far = $41 (my magnetic stir-plate alone cost more - no regrets).

Your videos have been helpful, I'll read up some more on how much water to use with what quantities of grain and how much water + temperatures to sparge with etc. Then I should be good to go.

Cheers for the inspiration and instructions on AG brewing ghetto style.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

No worries.

If your reading is pointing to standard grain mash vs water ratios - use that, not the ones for BIAB (which don't generally include allowances for sparge methods).

Generally with mine, it's about 3:1 for the mash in and I'll generally go 3-3.5:1 on sparging as well, which seems to allow for absorption.

Pop the data into brewmate for "AG" not "BIAB" and you should be pretty much right.


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## menoetes

Thanks for the feedback Raja,

So if I mash 4kg of grain I should use 12 litres of water and more or less the same for sparging? How then do you drop the volume before putting it into the fermenter? Do you boil and evaporate the 24 litres down to about 20 litres or does the grain absorb the extra liquid? Sorry if these seem like stupid questions but I've never done this before... Your vids don't include volumes.

Could you maybe post a very basic step by step recipe with volumes and temps (for a simple pale ale for example) to be clear on how to use your method?

If it's too much of a bother don't worry about it, I'm sure I'll get there in the end. Experimenting is the heart of home brewing after-all...


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## Tahoose

Menoetes, I'd suggest getting brew mate and having a play with it.

Have a look at the brew day mode and that should answer a few of your questions.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Tahoose said:


> Menoetes, I'd suggest getting brew mate and having a play with it.
> Have a look at the brew day mode and that should answer a few of your questions.


This.

Far easier to plug an existing recipe into brewmate, adjust it to your volume and let the brew day function sort out the calcs. It's all I do.

And I no chill.

Recipe for 25L for a basic Pale Ale:

5kg Ale malt (love Perle, Maris Otter a close 2nd)
.5kg Heritage Crystal (medium crystal if heritage NA)

Citra hops:

15 IBU at 30minutes
15 IBU at 10 minutes

US05.

If you plug in for 25L, you can then scale it down to 20L.

Brewmate will work out the rest for you. Assume mash temp 65 degrees.


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## menoetes

Ah, the brewday function, hello!

I've been using brewmate for a few months now, as a tool to work on my extract and few partial brews. Did you know I never even used the brewday function? This is _very_ helpful and answers almost all my questions.

Thanks guys.


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## menoetes

Lauter bucket done. Drilling the strainer bucket took a little while but wasn't hard, making the hole just right for the tap in the other bucket was a bit more effort. It took a while but I got there, though it does have a slow drip. I'm hoping some plumber tape will fix that.

Otherwise does anyone know a liquid or gel sealant that would be heat resistant up to 100'c and safe to use on a food prep item?

Edit: Never mind about the sealant question, I just went back over the thread (as others have suggested) and will get a brass nut to fit over it when next at bunnings, maybe a washer too...


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## beermeupscotty

Just took a re-read of this thread (since first joining AHB and being led to it). To get started with AG, I've acquired a 65L SS pot which I'm planning to use with the hope of producing enough wort for two 19-23L batches. I have some other equipment at my disposal too, and I've been going over the combinations in my head of how I can get this going.

Total current equipment includes:

65L SS Stock pot
2x20L pail with tap for lauter
38L esky
7.6L stock pot
10L stock pot
I've been considering adding another large pot or esky to the mix. So right now, with the limitations of minimal extra equipment and just a stove-top, I'm thinking:

*Method 1 (new pot, temperature-mash)*
Heat sparge water in 10+7.6L pots (first, because the 65L pot takes up all four burners)
Store sparge water in 38L esky
'Temperature mash' in 65L pot (with a pizza-tray+bolts false bottom?)
Lauter+sparge with pails into 45L pot (new)
Boil wort in 45L pot

This method would allow me to mash-out. An alternative, single infusion with no variable temperature (e.g. mash-out), might be:

*Method 2 (new esky, no temperature variation on mash)*
Heat mash water in 65L pot
Mash in 65L esky (new)
Heat sparge water in 65L pot
Store sparge water in 38L esky
Lauter+sparge with pails into 65L pot
Boil in 65L pot

Or I could consider getting a ring burner + pulley and do BIAB, but my feeling is I'd prefer not to do BIAB with this size brew.

It's late and I'm thinking kinda slow so maybe both of these ideas are wack. If anyone has any comments / advice, I'd be glad to hear it.

Cheers.


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## Tahoose

I think if your going to do double batches you should probably look to get the bigger esky and boil in the 65ltr pot.

You probably won't get 10kg+ of soaked grain in your lauter bucket but you'll have plenty there for a good grain bed and it should affect anything to much. 

You would be a able to do infusion step mashes in the bigger esky also by adding boiling water to get up to the next temperature.

Food for thought. I brew 24ltr batches, and by the time I have 5kg of grain 15ltrs of strike water and then roughy another 10ltrs of boiling water to hit different temps my 50 ltr esky is relatively full.


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## beermeupscotty

Thanks Tahoose.

Yeah I figured I might struggle with the 20L lauter doing a double-batch - couldn't find the density of soaked grain in order to calculate it though. So you reckon, if I managed to do a double-batch with my equipment, I should just lauter what I can in the 20L bucket and go with that? i.e. don't bother with a second 20L lauter?

Ah, yeah I kinda had hot water top-ups at the back of my mind. Wasn't sure how practical this was. Thanks for the reminder.

Thanks for the heads-up regarding volume limitations. I knew I'd be pushing it so I prepared a recipe in BeerSmith (first time properly using it) to see what kind of volumes to expect. For a final bottling volume of 44.5L, I got a required mash volume of 57.2L and a boil volume of 51.8L. I know these estimates will differ from my actual figures, but it seems doable. Will have to see...


----------



## Tahoose

Yeah I think it would be doable. Might even give it a go tomorrow tomorrow if I have the time... 

Mine would be 2 batches back to back though, off the one mash as I don't have a kettle that big.

My recommendation would be;
Big esky 65ltr or bigger if you that's viable.
Mash in esky 
Fill lauter bucket until 3/4 full with grain. Use a sieve or something to grab the grain from the mash.
Fill with wort until it has almost filled the bottom bucket( you'll see what I mean when you do it)

SLOWLY OPEN TAP. Run your wort at around or even a touch less than 1ltr per minute. Opening the tap fully create a vacuum and will compact the grain bed. This is very counterproductive. 

At the same time as your starting to lauter fill your esky with the remaining sparge water, you could basically do a batch sparge at the same time. 

The less amount of times you need to add water the better(my opinion). It means you can focus on other parts of your brewday. This is one of the things which makes BIAB popular. 

Re-circulate the wort until it looks clear and then run the remaining wort from the esky through the lauter bucket. 

On my brew day on Wednesday I ran about 6 litres through the buckets before it started getting clear. Then I ran the remaining wort through. I took me about 45 mins for 27-28 Ltrs of clear wort into the kettle. This was my smoothest running brewday though, I'd expect it might take longer than that especially with a big grain bill.

I hope that can help the situation, that's all from my perspective of using this system.

Was also wondering. Have you done a test run of your 65ltr pot boiling 55-60 litres of water on the stove? How does it handle it?


----------



## Beertard

I get around 5.5 kilos of grain in the double buckets with water before it overflows between the buckets.
Pictured is 4.5 kg with about 8cm from overflow once I added the water, I'm mashing in the bucket but the amount they hold will be the same for your use for lautering only.


----------



## beermeupscotty

Thanks! Well maybe a dual-lauter system is the way to go. Not expensive to set up another one...


----------



## beermeupscotty

Tahoose said:


> Yeah I think it would be doable. Might even give it a go tomorrow tomorrow if I have the time...
> 
> Mine would be 2 batches back to back though, off the one mash as I don't have a kettle that big.
> 
> My recommendation would be;
> Big esky 65ltr or bigger if you that's viable.
> Mash in esky
> Fill lauter bucket until 3/4 full with grain. Use a sieve or something to grab the grain from the mash.
> Fill with wort until it has almost filled the bottom bucket( you'll see what I mean when you do it)
> 
> SLOWLY OPEN TAP. Run your wort at around or even a touch less than 1ltr per minute. Opening the tap fully create a vacuum and will compact the grain bed. This is very counterproductive.
> 
> At the same time as your starting to lauter fill your esky with the remaining sparge water, you could basically do a batch sparge at the same time.
> 
> The less amount of times you need to add water the better(my opinion). It means you can focus on other parts of your brewday. This is one of the things which makes BIAB popular.
> 
> Re-circulate the wort until it looks clear and then run the remaining wort from the esky through the lauter bucket.
> 
> On my brew day on Wednesday I ran about 6 litres through the buckets before it started getting clear. Then I ran the remaining wort through. I took me about 45 mins for 27-28 Ltrs of clear wort into the kettle. This was my smoothest running brewday though, I'd expect it might take longer than that especially with a big grain bill.
> 
> I hope that can help the situation, that's all from my perspective of using this system.
> 
> Was also wondering. Have you done a test run of your 65ltr pot boiling 55-60 litres of water on the stove? How does it handle it?


Thanks for the further tips - it's definitely helping. I've had a look into batch sparging, and like the look of it  During my search, I came across people using SS braided tubing, or 'bazookas' for the lauter process. I guess this replaces the bucket-in-bucket lauter. Any thoughts on that? I'm guessing it'd be quite slow? Nice and compact though...

Can't say I have done a test run with the 65L pot on the stove. I was thinking it'd be ok given I was planning to use all four burners (I know other people often just use two). But it's a large volume of water. Might struggle... I don't really want to waste the water / gas with a test run so I might get everything set up first and buy the grain. If it fails, I'll abort and try to find a proper burner before the grain goes bad.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

You have house gas?!?


----------



## beermeupscotty

Yup. Still don't want to have four burners on full, blasting away for 30 mins (or whatever it would take) and then not really do anything with the 60L of water. Yes, I could do washing with it but I'd prefer to just 'test' it when I have the grain.


----------



## Mattrox

I'm definitely going to try this method. 

Have 1 20L pot already. Have esky already. I reckon this is worth a sticky.

Over summer when I have time off I'll have a crack.

I am getting my fermentation, hops and yeast techniques down pat first.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Don't wait until summer!!


----------



## Mattrox

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Don't wait until summer!!


I have a few kits to get through. I have had some really good brews with kits. 


Time poor atm.

*edit SWMBO hacked me.


----------



## Mattrox

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Don't wait until summer!!


I have a collection of 3x 10L food grade buckets. I have 2 lids also which make a tight seal. So I could make a 10L fermenter and a lauter tun. I have a 19L pot and a gas stove which has big and little burners. I could stove top mash, lauter/sparge then back into pot for a boil. If I got a thermometer do I have enough stuff to make 10L batches?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Pretty much all you need. It won't be fantastic in terms of time and effort but it will get you started. From there you can decide which way to go and it hasn't cost you much to try.


----------



## pedleyr

Add a hydrometer and a bottling wand (or other way to go from fermenter to bottle) and you would be fine to brew and bottle into PET bottles. 

Don't worry about the lid on the fermenter, just use glad wrap.


----------



## Mattrox

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Pretty much all you need. It won't be fantastic in terms of time and effort but it will get you started. From there you can decide which way to go and it hasn't cost you much to try.


I had thought that if I gear up with this kit, I could experiment with recipes without going to full volume. Gives me enough to evaluate and get opinions on from others before trying it full volume. 

I would also do small volumes of Xtra IPA or RIS as I don't drink lots of these but do get a hankering from time to time.


----------



## Mattrox

pedleyr said:


> Add a hydrometer and a bottling wand (or other way to go from fermenter to bottle) and you would be fine to brew and bottle into PET bottles.
> 
> Don't worry about the lid on the fermenter, just use glad wrap.


I have all the gear from a Coopers DIY kit already. Just wondering about gearing up for small batch brewing.

Cheers.


----------



## pedleyr

In that case mate you're fine. I started out doing 11 litre batches on my stove, was good to get the feel of it. I always used full sized fermenters though, never bothered with smaller ones, so use your Cooper's one.


----------



## Tahoose

You can basically do 12 ltr batches going on what you have, I work on about 12 Ltrs per 19ltr pot. 

I started on one pot and am now on 2 pots. 24 Ltrs per batch with little extra effort makes me happy.


----------



## Mattrox

Tahoose said:


> You can basically do 12 ltr batches going on what you have, I work on about 12 Ltrs per 19ltr pot.
> 
> I started on one pot and am now on 2 pots. 24 Ltrs per batch with little extra effort makes me happy.


What I have been thinking is that with small batches I can muti-step mash right on the stove top.

But with full batches I'm going to have to eski mash. 

I can stretch to another big W 19L pot. But to buy a full volume pot will stretch the budget....... or invoke the disapproval of SWMBO.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I did use to do full sized BIAB in the pots. Got about 20L from doing so (I just bought a couple of pieces of swiss voile from spotlight on special).

That will get around the multi-step mash problem.

As I mentioned in the 2 pot stovetop thread - the method isn't about "this is the right way" but more "given my equipment and limitations, what can I get to do this well" - it's primarily about utilising what one already has and improvising. Use what you have/can get/can affford and work around it.

I generally don't step mash with this method - decoction is pretty easy as is mashing out. But a couple of bits of voile should circumvent this limitation.


----------



## Mattrox

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I did use to do full sized BIAB in the pots. Got about 20L from doing so (I just bought a couple of pieces of swiss voile from spotlight on special).
> 
> That will get around the multi-step mash problem.
> 
> As I mentioned in the 2 pot stovetop thread - the method isn't about "this is the right way" but more "given my equipment and limitations, what can I get to do this well" - it's primarily about utilising what one already has and improvising. Use what you have/can get/can affford and work around it.
> 
> I generally don't step mash with this method - decoction is pretty easy as is mashing out. But a couple of bits of voile should circumvent this limitation.


Hmmm food for thought. 

How "required" is step mashing for a pale ale?


----------



## Tahoose

I do this and step mash regularly, just do infusions of boiling water into the esky.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Mattrox said:


> Hmmm food for thought.
> How "required" is step mashing for a pale ale?


I made award winning ales with single infusion.


----------



## jkhlt1210

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I made award winning ales with single infusion.


How many awards have you won your lordship??


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

3 in one year - my first from 5 beers and would have been 4 if I hadn't entered one in the wrong category (according to a judge who won amateur and professional awards). Not had the ability to enter since because up to this year, Tassie hasn't had had a comp. 

I'm not saying it'll apply to all styles but it did to the ones I did.

My house beer is APA and AIPA. So yeah, it can be done as a single infusion.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Not trying to gloat, more a statement about brewing to my strengths. And if I ever got sick of Pale Ales, I'd find a way to make the equipment work for me.


----------



## jkhlt1210

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> 3 in one year - my first from 5 beers and would have been 4 if I hadn't entered one in the wrong category (according to a judge who won amateur and professional awards). Not had the ability to enter since because up to this year, Tassie hasn't had had a comp.
> 
> I'm not saying it'll apply to all styles but it did to the ones I did.
> 
> My house beer is APA and AIPA. So yeah, it can be done as a single infusion.



Wow that's impressive!! I'd live to enter a comp... Maybe one year I'll work up to it. Just did my first BIAB two weeks ago hopefully bottle this week I can't wait!! Dare I ask for a good recipe of yours??? If not it's all good


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Happy to share. In the recipe db, there's my lord Nelson citra cascading out of this galaxy pale ale.

But truth be told, my house pale is for 25L:

5kg base malt
300g medium or heritage crystal
200g rye or red wheat or just top up with crystal. 

US05

American hops to 35 IBU. 15 IBU at 30min, the balance at 10 mins (assuming no chill).

Beermate will do the lifting for you. 

My fave hop is Citra but it'll work with any fruity American style hop.


----------



## jkhlt1210

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Happy to share. In the recipe db, there's my lord Nelson citra cascading out of this galaxy pale ale.
> 
> But truth be told, my house pale is for 25L:
> 
> 5kg base malt
> 300g medium or heritage crystal
> 200g rye or red wheat or just top up with crystal.
> 
> US05
> 
> American hops to 35 IBU. 15 IBU at 30min, the balance at 10 mins (assuming no chill).
> 
> Beermate will do the lifting for you.
> 
> My fave hop is Citra but it'll work with any fruity American style hop.


Awesome thankyou very much! I'll check it out!


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Okay dokay, I thought I'd whack a new picture post up with some new details.

In other posts I've mentioned that I've squeezed a fair bit of wort out of my method.

Yesterday I embarked (probably stupidly) on a big brewday - with the purpose of getting 30L of 1.090 beer, which would then form the basis of two separate high gravity beers.

Again, this isn't a 'how to' for this, but more an example of utilising what is at hand and a bit of problem solving to get wort out the other end.

First problem that needed to be dealt with is my esky's 38L limitation and 10kg of base grain. 2nd problem attached to that, is that I can't obviously use the same spec malts in the two different beers.

So onto problem solving.







10kg of grain. Remember that I don't have a mill in this case (I'll get one once we have a more permanent home), so a food processor does the job. Note that there is a 20L food grade bucket. This was being used for grain storage, but as my grain supplies have gone down, I've been able to consolidate into my large storage containers (the grain in this was in a grain-bag). This bucket will serve two purposes as you shall see.






Mashed in the base grain using Maxi BIAB principle. The ratio was 2.3:1. Now I overcooked the 2nd pot on the stove (remember I use two pots to get strike temp up). If I didn't get the entire amount in (I'd banked on 2.4:1), then I could adjust the mash temp up or down using the last bit of water (cold or hot). As it stood, I hit the healty 63.5 degrees, which is what I wanted.

As it was mashing in, I pulverised the two lots of spec malts. These malts only need steeping, not mashing, though I did use 67 degrees as my sparge temp.






Thank you google auto-awesome






As you can see, these are significantly different specs for significantly different beers. 9L buckets are the staple of any household and brewery.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Sparge water on stove. More sparge water is needed because of the lower water:grain ratio. My kettle boils at a healthy 81 degrees, and is used for 'extra' sparge water.

Lautering. The BIAB there is because I will end up with a stuck sparge because of the pulverised grain. Recognise the 20L bucket?






After sparging (which is done in a somewhat staggered stage and fills up the 20L bucket and then my first empty pot), I divide the 2nd wort runnings (you could gyle this) into the 2 pots evenly, and then the 20L bucket runnings into the two pots evenly. Both pots went onto the stove to ramp up.

Then I separate the spec grains from their steeped water, and run a kettle through each of them:












Once the pots on the stove had boiled down to the right level, each of the steeped grain waters were added (one to each pot, because each pot has the wort for each of the different brews - look at the pic below, you'll see the different brews), and then brought up to boil. Once boiling, I started the 60 minutes and added the 60 minute hop additions.






The rest is the beer you know and love well. 

Edit:

Being a mod, I don't have time limits on editing posts, so I can tuck this in without bumping the thread.

The above beers/method of doing two high grav beers at the same time netted a Gold for one and a Bronze for the other in the state home brewing championships. Independent proof that dodgy ghetto equipment (and some problem solving) really does produce good beers. One of these beers is now headed for the Nationals.


----------



## menoetes

Thanks for the continuing info Goomba. I'm going to give your two pot AG method another shot next Monday (my first attempt actually tastes pretty good despite the issues I had in brewing it). Would you mind going into a bit more detail on how exactly do you go about sparging?

I've been reading up on batch sparging and have an idea of the method but wanted to run it past a more experienced head than mine.

Couldn't you use the lauter buckets to completely drain the wort away from the primary mash until basically dry. Then return the drained grain to the mash esky, add the sparge water and mix gently but thoroughly before repeating the lautering process again?

Such as is done in  (just after the 2 minute mark).

It seems far simpler than trying fly sparging with a big pot of hot water, a jug and a colander as I tried before, maybe too easy? Am I overlooking a problem with this method when used with your two pot AG brewing style?

Cheers,
Meno


----------



## RdeVjun

I had missed this brewday update until now- good one Goomba, very ingenious and great work! :beerbang:
There's a lot to be said for reserving the last few L of water going into the mash, then adjusting with hot, cold or reserved and hitting the step temperature bang on every time.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

menoetes said:


> Thanks for the continuing info Goomba. I'm going to give your two pot AG method another shot next Monday (my first attempt actually tastes pretty good despite the issues I had in brewing it). Would you mind going into a bit more detail on how exactly do you go about sparging?
> 
> I've been reading up on batch sparging and have an idea of the method but wanted to run it past a more experienced head than mine.
> 
> Couldn't you use the lauter buckets to completely drain the wort away from the primary mash until basically dry. Then return the drained grain to the mash esky, add the sparge water and mix gently but thoroughly before repeating the lautering process again?
> 
> Such as is done in  (just after the 2 minute mark).
> 
> It seems far simpler than trying fly sparging with a big pot of hot water, a jug and a colander as I tried before, maybe too easy? Am I overlooking a problem with this method when used with your two pot AG brewing style?
> 
> Cheers,
> Meno



Sounds like an excellent idea - nothing stopping you for doing that. The difference will be that you will need to re-transfer the grain back in and re-bed it. An advantage is obviously batching it.

You could also then do 'top up' fly sparging if you really wanted to. 




RdeVjun said:


> I had missed this brewday update until now- good one Goomba, very ingenious and great work! :beerbang:
> There's a lot to be said for reserving the last few L of water going into the mash, then adjusting with hot, cold or reserved and hitting the step temperature bang on every time.


Thanks mate, means a great deal coming from you.


----------



## menoetes

I gave this method another shot yesterday and I think I went much better this time.

I found lining the the lauter bucket with a BIAB mesh grain bag really helped, it acted as another filter and when the runnings slowed down to a drip I could lift the bag partially out of the bucket and let it gravity drain to get the last of the wort out of it efficiently.

Batch sparging worked out well, it was a lot easier for me than fly sparging with a jug and colander. I just drained the grains in the lauter buckets (and bag) and then returned them to the esky, added the hot sparge water, stirred well and left for 10 minutes before repeating the draining process. Lautering in two smaller batched rather than one massive one really helped too.

I got my temp control better in hand too with new thermometers and wrapping the esky in a doona to help insulation. I barely lost 1.5'c over the hour this time and kept the temp in the 67 - 69'c range, just a smidge higher than I wanted but I'm not overly worried about that.

It certainly took less work than my first attempt though it was still a 5.5 hour day. I blame my electric stove top, it really struggled to get the larger volumes of water and wort up to the desired temperatures. Admittedly most of the time was me watching tv or surfing the web while waiting for stuff to finish. It was far more relaxed this time and I don't feel nearly so bad about it.

No boil overs, major spills or anything. The worst thing that happened to me all day was when I clocked myself in the face with the esky lid. Not bad on the whole...

I think I got my efficiency up to 65% as well, at least a 5% rise on last time. I turned 5.5kg of Maris Otter grain into 25 litres of wort with an OG of 1.047, slightly higher than the 1.045 I was aiming for (so there's a bonus). We'll see how it comes out in the end.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

One of the disadvantages with this method is that you're really at the mercy to the stovetop you have (but of course, it's cheaper than gas).

I've had a place of mine get the pots up to boil in 15 minutes easily (less if less wort) and maintain an excellent rolling boil. Others have struggled to do it in 30 mins.

Slightly OT - but I have my Tasmanian Version of the 2 pots with lauter for giveaway here.


----------



## Tahoose

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> One of the disadvantages with this method is that you're really at the mercy to the stovetop you have /quote]
> 
> I got banished from the kitchen, 1 pot is heated by a Portable induction cooker, and the other has a $12 corded kettle element installed from woolworths.
> 
> Full electric, the element kettle serves as a HLT also as it has a ball valve and can work with and stc-1000.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Tahoose said:


> Lord Raja Goomba I said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the disadvantages with this method is that you're really at the mercy to the stovetop you have /quote]
> 
> I got banished from the kitchen, 1 pot is heated by a Portable induction cooker, and the other has a $12 corded kettle element installed from woolworths.
> 
> Full electric, the element kettle serves as a HLT also as it has a ball valve and can work with and stc-1000.
> 
> 
> 
> Good job, Tahoose.
> 
> The other advantage is that if you aren't banned from the kitchen, it is apartment/small space friendly and doesn't require you to grab extra heating equipment. Though I do like your portable induction cooker idea, how does it do?
> 
> I've got to move house, and would like to take this outside, without going down the gas route, if possible.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tahoose

Check this link,

http://m.crazysales.com.au/online-maxkon-2000w-portable-induction-cooktop-62475.html

http://m.ebay.com.au/itm?itemId=390480577950

I think it was pickaxe who got me onto this somewhere in this thread. He uses two of them and uses this method to brew in an apartment.

If you run two of them I'd run them from seperate circuits. 

Run them on the "cake setting" for most power to the pot. The other settings also run on a timer which isn't what you want when you need a longist boil.

Work with big w 19ltr pots

No need for any DIY action by the unconfident/unskilled.

I got mine for $35 brand new.. Bargain..

Full electric, no running out of gas. And if the power fails oh well you probably weren't supposed to brew that day so have a beer.


----------



## Tahoose

I forgot to mention, it doesn't get a vigorous boil, but it boils and I haven't had any issues with my beer. 

And I'd say the induction cooker is BIAB friendly.

The pot with the element isn't really BIAB friendly.


----------



## Tahoose

So had a random though earlier on which is sort of inspired by the 10 IPA thread.. 

So pretty much the main thing that this process has consistently between us all, is that we use 2 pots for the boil.

Now this can be great for making 2 different beers from the same grain bill, but I'm assuming that 7 times out of 10 we all make a full sized batch, 23-24 Ltrs...

Normally I'd split my hops evenly between the two pots for the various additions.

So I was thinking; next brew day, once I have started recirculating and have one pot full ill get that to the boil and add my full bittering addition. 

Then when I have filled pot number 2, I'll get that to the boil and do a 10 min boil. Then combine both pots in the no chill cube.

Pot 1 will be high gravity, with just bittering addition. Pot 2 will be low gravity with flavour/aroma, or no addition and a cube hop.

I reckon this should knock about 45 mins off my brew day.. 

I'll only do this with grain bills using predominately ale malts, not pils malts..

Thoughts??


----------



## menoetes

Any idea how effective those portable induction cookers are Tahoose?

The grain dust from my AG brewing makes SWMBO's hayfever act up something awful so I don't think I'm far from being banished from the kitchen too.

Being able to brew under the house on portable cooktops would be useful (and more merciful to her) and if they can bring 15lts of wort to the boil in under 40min, they'll be doing better than my glass stovetop.


----------



## Tahoose

I'm not really sure how long it would take.. Next brew day I'll take a note of starting temp and how long it takes to reach the boil. 

I tend to start heat this pot before the one with the element, as the one with the element has some balls.

The cheaper option is the kettle element, has more power. But requires modifying..

If your no good with tools, the induction stove is a good option. No DIY required.


----------



## TheBlackAdder

I tried this method on the weekend and it is great for entry-level all grain for people with limited equipment and budget.

Big thanks to LRG for posting this!

I had all the normal mistakes of a first all grain: messed up my water volumes (I cant count and talk to a mate at the same time apparantly) and had to resort to a really ghetto 3 pot method - I thought an old stock pot I had was 15L but its only 9! Back to BigW for another 19L pot for next time!

But even with my mistakes, the process is really easy and the lauter works well.

I only got ~65% efficiency due to outragous evaporation and finished with a 16.5L wort which I topped up to 20L for a final SG of 1.043 (Dr.Smurto's Golder Ale)

Will definately give this another shot once I have a spare FV


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

This warms the cockles of my heart on a warm spring's morning in Tassie, that I'm spending indoors at work.

Good on you TheBlackAdder - had a Baldric of a time and still made some wort at the end.

65% is good - I reckon my first AG (not this method) was closer to 50%, and now I get anywhere between 75-85%, depending on how lazy I feel on the day.

Spare FV - go to bunnings, buy water container and taps. Cheap as.


----------



## Dazzbrew

Any ideas on how much pre boil volume is safe in a big w 19ltr pot boiling dme without a boil over on the kitchen stove?
Im planning a small volume partial, full volume boil brew and want to avoid a foamy boil over.
good thread lrg.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I've pushed it right to the limit - about 1 inch below the top of the lid, but it needs to be watched like a hawk.


----------



## Dazzbrew

Righto thanks.


----------



## Dazzbrew

Ok some mores help please if you guys dont mind.
I am going to use the three pot method, 19ltr pot for the boil, 11ltr pot to mash in & 7ltr pot for sparge water. After mashing 2.2kgs of grain in a bag at 67 deg & at 2.9ltr/kg I was going to drain the bag in a colander on top of the brewpot then pour the wort through it as a bit of a filter. Then follow that with sparge water at the same 2.9ltr/kg but what temp should the sparge water be?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Aim at around 81 degrees for 5kg but not sure of the lower amount you're using.

You should be using brewing software such as beermate which will give you a better calc.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

It sounds a bit closer to the two pot stovetop biab I used to use, except i split the grist and did two bags worth.

With the method in this thread, it's about brewing 25L odd batches rather than the 12L-15L typical of normal on-stove BIAB. You seem to b putting lots of extra effort for a smaller batch. Going by your calcs and the fact you're using a bag, why not just mash in the 19L pot and drain and sparge into the 11L one and add back as it ramps up to boil.


----------



## Dazzbrew

So just skip the recirculation step then? Yes that would save some time, thanks.


----------



## TheMechWarrior

Great thread LRG!

I'm in Devonport myself and I'm hoping to hit the stores and the shed this weekend to make the transition from extract to AG.

Cheers,

*Mech.*

*T*ogether *E*ach *A*chieve *M*ore


----------



## Tahoose

Welcome to the forum mate.

A 2nd class ride will always be better than a first class walk. :super:


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## Fu ManBru

Brewed two AGs with this method. Tasted the first the other day (SMaSH, MO and Cascade) and was very happy with the result. :icon_drool2:

But at the end of the day it was too much frigging around with two pots for me and the fact my stove top was struggling. It does show though (as LRG intended to) that AG can be done with minimal equipment and I'm glad I did try it as it's helped me hone in on what I want.

I'll stick with partials for the moment as it suits me better but have asked Santa for a burner and bigger pot.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Pretty much nailed it. Lots of faffing about, especially if you have a stove that struggles or a stuck sparge, though the latter can happen regardless of the equipment used. 

And the pots are always useful for a brewery upgrade.

Now I'm back in town, I'm pondering what to do with the new potential rig.


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## Tahoose

Gonna stay ghetto or looking to upgrade a little? Do I remember you saying that you had some stuff in storage when you left brissy?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Might upgrade depending on cost. I've got some other stuff to get first, but my biggest issue with going large is a lack of element, which the big advantage, because I don't need to buy anything to heat the pot/s, which cuts the start up cost, but I'm torn between 'buy once, cry once, but wait' or 'get moving and accumulate'.


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## Tahoose

Seriously if I had my start up again is be looking at a 40ltr urn with a concealed element. 

Somebody chucked up an awesome (read simple) recirculating rig with an urn, a big w pot and a pump a couple if weeks ago.


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## LAGERFRENZY

Thank you so much LRG. I've done kits, bits, partials and steeps gradually the past six months or so but everywhere I turned to get a bit of a head-start on AG methods entailed selling a kidney or a left testicle to put a deposit on a Brewfuehrer or a Grainmaiden and learning to calculate my body weight in IBU's on some particularly gnarly software package. Nick's $30 BIAB piece, many writings from BribieG and now your exhaustive de-mystifications of the dark art saw me going to Craft Brewer this week and picking up all the requisites for my first All Grain brew this weekend. I have a couple of recipes, I have just enough of the basic techniques required to make them and now I have a broader understanding of some of the underlying principles that need to be expanded upon. Great forum guys - now I have a toe-hold on the first step up the next ladder. Oh and I am absolutely sure to stuff up the first few times as well!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Thanks lagerfrenzy, I got going on the Nick_JD thread, but I needed to tweak it to get it to do what I needed, hence this method.

At the moment, I'm using a BIAB bag in the esky with stepped mashes and sparge out, because that's what I have lying about. I much prefer the ghetto lauter though.

Like you said, it's about starting out without selling a left nut, and repurposing household equipment is a good start.


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## LAGERFRENZY

Thank you Lord - all encouragement welcome at this wobbly entry to the next adventure. I just cracked 2.5 kgs of grains in my small coffee grinder for my half sized batch tomorrow and boy, will I be ordering them milled from now onwards. Just remembered that I own an old fashioned tea urn that does about 9 litres with controllable thermostat. If I were to sit it on a table with an esky on a chair below it (with a meshed false floor in the esky and a metal tap below that) could I then lauter and sparge in the esky and have the 19 litre boil pot on the ground below it? Not for this brew as I'll need the BIAB sack for my floury grains

BTW I got the urn from Aldi for about $40 a couple of years ago - they still flog them every six months or so. Nine litres may well not be enough for a full sized batch but if the thermostat is reasonably accurate then it might take some of the pressure off with rushing around with many massive pots of water sloshing around?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Exactly right - use what you have lying around. 

If your esky has a tap on it, you could lauter, so long as you have a bag. 

Lautering is about separation of liquor from grain after mashing. The BIAB bag serves as a lauter in this case.

Using a bag in an esky and transferring the liquor to a pot will act as your lautet and a run of water with the urn afterward at mashout temp (brewing software will work the exact temp for you - generally around 80 degrees for a 75 degree mashout) Over your bag in the esky, give it a stir and dunk and transfer the sparge runnings in with the first runnings in your pot and boil.

Hope it makes sense.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Oops, just re read, your metal floor in your esky and tap on it - definitely usable as a lauter and sparger.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

And order milled, I got 75% using the bag and shop milled grain. Way easier. 

If you go bulk, there is another whole issue, in Tas I only could go unmilled, so a food processor around home did milling duties.


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## wynnum1

LAGERFRENZY said:


> Thank you Lord - all encouragement welcome at this wobbly entry to the next adventure. I just cracked 2.5 kgs of grains in my small coffee grinder for my half sized batch tomorrow and boy, will I be ordering them milled from now onwards. Just remembered that I own an old fashioned tea urn that does about 9 litres with controllable thermostat. If I were to sit it on a table with an esky on a chair below it (with a meshed false floor in the esky and a metal tap below that) could I then lauter and sparge in the esky and have the 19 litre boil pot on the ground below it? Not for this brew as I'll need the BIAB sack for my floury grains
> 
> BTW I got the urn from Aldi for about $40 a couple of years ago - they still flog them every six months or so. Nine litres may well not be enough for a full sized batch but if the thermostat is reasonably accurate then it might take some of the pressure off with rushing around with many massive pots of water sloshing around?


When using coffee grinder be careful they can heat up from friction and motor exertion i have commercial coffee grinder and after doing 2 kg rice was getting hot has less problems with malt grain and the BIAB bags got 3 - 20 L paint strainer bags for under $8 from paint shop and have had no problems using.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Stick the coffee grinder in the freezer to cool quickly. I got through a couple hundred kg of grain and it was still working. It speeds up the overheat reduction.


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## LAGERFRENZY

Thanks for the grinder tips guys. Another soul saved today - my first 11.5 litre AG in mini fermenter in mini fridge tonight. Pretty stoked as the whole time the thing just kept smelling more and more like hot, fresh beer!


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## LAGERFRENZY

Last week I imagined what could be done with the mash esky if you could only put a decent tap on one of them. Well this week in Brisbane Coles have a 55 litres esky on sale half price for $49 - one with a drainage hole that can be unscrewed:


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## LAGERFRENZY

Needed a new esky anyway so if all else failed it was not in vain. Then a trip to Craft Brewer to see if they could help with a tap and they sure could:


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## LAGERFRENZY

CB dude helped me to make sure plumbing snugly attached to esky without any drilling - some plumbers tape should be all that is required for my new mash and lauter tun for under $100:


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## LAGERFRENZY

Now to find something that can be used as a grated false floor above tap level but in the interim I can sit the grain bag on a cake rack to lift it above tap height.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I grabbed one of those.

I'll check out the cost of the taps, as I have some fittings I got with some other things I acquired 2Nd hand.

Good job mate!


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## LAGERFRENZY

The ball valve tap was $19.95 - they had a cheaper one but this one looked stronger/more durable. All up the plumbing side, including a length of silicone hose came to $45.50. Another $6 investment at Woolies was this cooling rack that fits the inside of the esky like a glove:


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## lobedogg

I've been using LRG's ghetto method for a bit over a year now (slightly tweaked), and just want to recommend it to those considering getting into the game. I've had plans to upgrade and take it out of the kitchen, but to be honest, its working fine for my situation, so I've just carried on.

For me, this was the method that 'clicked' and seemed easily attainable. Sure it's not perfect, but I've found I can produce some fantastic beers and get a brew day done within about 4 hours on average (no chill). Entered a few brews in VicBrew this year (first comp and they weren't even my best tbh) and my stout came 6th and Pilsner came 13th even when I entered it in the wrong sub-category.

Just want to say thanks to LRG for the thread and also for answering some questions I had recently about getting two different beers done in the one sitting. On Sunday, I managed to push the system to the max and ended up with two cubes of 1056 wort that I've diluted down a little to get two full kegs worth of APA. Steeping the speciality grains separately allowed me to produce two different beers as well.

Anyone else still rocking this method or a version of? Any more success stories?


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## LAGERFRENZY

Great to hear a success story lobedogg - it was all about attainability for me too. After reading some of the works of Nick JD, BribieG and our good Lord himself suddenly the Latin-chanting and Hardware megaspends stopped clouding the periphery of vision and I could see how you could make real beer with mostly the shit you had laying around the house. I've learned a lot from each brew and have only just started to enjoy drinking the spoils. I think that these three gentlemen got me out of the Kit Brewing comfort zone a good six to twelve months earlier than I would otherwise have left it.


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## abe max

Just want to say to say thanks to the Lord for this thread, an easy way to AG, getting 65 to 70% efficiency which will do me but the best thing is the final product, good beer!


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