# Getting 'pilsner' Into Pilsner



## labels (11/10/12)

I have been concentrating on lagers for about the last four years.

This was driven by a desire to 'Beat the Breweries at their own game' In other words, produce beer as good as commercial Australian lager beer such as Carlton, Tooheys, West End Draught and the newer 'dry' beers - Pure Blonde, Extra Dry or whatever.

I can't copy them exactly but I get damn close, they are really clean tasting and fall close to the mark. I consider the task conquered.

Upping the Ante! Next was pilsners.

Starting with basic German styles such as Bitburger, Henninger et., I set out to get close to this style.

I have failed - miserably. Even using malts such as Weyermann Premium Pilsner, I can produce a super clean lager BUT, no pilsen taste at all. Can't get that sweet, grainy malty taste at all.

I consider myself a reasonably experienced, reasonably advanced homebrewer but, this one has eluded me - so far.

Determined to crack this code. Steve.


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## Nick JD (11/10/12)

Decoction.


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## tazman1967 (11/10/12)

Try using the Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner as the base grain.. Hanka Barley.
I use it mine, as close as your going to get for flavour.

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=795

Cheers


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## Nick JD (11/10/12)

I know that taste you mean. It's a super-malty taste that's in many of the euro pilsners. I even have a sneaking suspicion that it's fermenting huge volumes. 

I've never tasted a home/craft/any brew that could emulate the "euro pils" character. I'd like to though. 

It's a tastes I like to call "german commercial beer". It's more than just the decoction flavour.


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## Mike L'Itorus (11/10/12)

Or locally, for you here


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## labels (11/10/12)

Thanks for input.

Decoctions. Could go on for hours about this subject but the 'Great Decoction Experiment' from a few years ago from famed homebrewer Denny Conn (USA) showed decoction made little difference (all side-by-side experiments) and my personal experience has concurred.

Boh Pils Malt. Got one under way at the moment, due to be kegged next weekend. RO water, Boh Pils malt (conditioned before crushing), two step mash, tight pH control, tight temp control, Melanoidin added (5%) Saaz pellets, WY Urquell yeast, super tight fermenation temps -=- will report back. Total time 6 weeks

However, I should be able to get there using Ausiie malts. Aussie malt is used in a lot of Asian beers which copy the Germans and the pilsner taste is there as well, although not as pronounced.

I've got a few ideas - they are a bit radical but I would prefer others to chime in first.

Steve


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## Thefatdoghead (11/10/12)

I reckon a big part to getting close to one of those Pilsner's is the water they use, the size they are fermenting and the house yeast. Also the way they filter and clarify. Just really hard to get the same on the home brew scale but good luck to you mate hope you crack it!


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## manticle (11/10/12)

Do you meanhow they taste when freshly made or when bottled and shipped here?


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## ged (11/10/12)

There's some stuff doing the rounds about "chit malt" (virtually unmalted barley) or flaked barley in a pils for a "grainy" taste.
I'm looking to try it soon.

Ged


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## labels (11/10/12)

manticle said:


> Do you meanhow they taste when freshly made or when bottled and shipped here?



That's a bit of a meaningless statement Mr. Manticle

I can certainly understand where you're coming from, in supposing all imported beer from Germany is past it's used by date by the time it gets here OR has suffered irrepairable damage during shipping even if it's within it's use by date.

However, I don't agree. Most beer that I have tried here tastes quite fresh - that is - about 70% I would say , and I always check the use by dates. Of course, it also applies to how the beer has been handled along the way in regards to refrigeration, for example. Not forgetting of course, beer shipped here has most probably been sterilised and I know that sterilisation also plays a role in the flavour profile - to some degree. Perhaps you could expand your point.


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## dent (11/10/12)

Yeah there is something in the commercial German (*not *Czech) pilsners that has that grainy taste/aroma that I have no idea where it comes from. It actually stands out more in some of the cheaper brands. This is nothing to do with Czech style decoction derived melanoidins, or the flavours you get from using the (floor malted) bohemian pils malt either. I have never tasted this in any non-commerical beer, nor any from any pilsners from Australian craft breweries. 

Anyone have any ideas?


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## labels (11/10/12)

In regards to my 'Sterilised' reference my intention was to say 'pasteurised', please take this into consideration


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## manticle (11/10/12)

labels said:


> That's a bit of a meaningless statement Mr. Manticle
> 
> I can certainly understand where you're coming from, in supposing all imported beer from Germany is past it's used by date by the time it gets here OR has suffered irrepairable damage during shipping even if it's within it's use by date.
> 
> However, I don't agree. Most beer that I have tried here tastes quite fresh - that is - about 70% I would say , and I always check the use by dates. Of course, it also applies to how the beer has been handled along the way in regards to refrigeration, for example. Not forgetting of course, beer shipped here has most probably been sterilised and I know that sterilisation also plays a role in the flavour profile - to some degree. Perhaps you could expand your point.


It's not meaningless at all, particularly when you yourself understand my perspective, agree or no.
Can't expand too much as I'm limited to typing on a phone currently but it was suggested to me by a guy that runs various tasting seminars, including fault tasting seminars, that the association he had when tasting trans-2-nonenal (major compound responsible for wet paper oxidation flavour) was with pilsner urquell purchased here. I believe he has tasted it fresh at the brewery.

It's just a thought - I haven't been lucky enough to try fresh commercial examples either.


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## Muscovy_333 (11/10/12)

labels said:


> In regards to my 'Sterilised' reference my intention was to say 'pasteurised', please take this into consideration



Have you tried pasteurising your beer for the sake of an experiment to see if the flavours are generated through this process. I am not so familiar with the flavour you speak of but it seems a few of you concur on the fact that they have not tasted it in a homebrew or craft brewed beer...just a thought. Perhaps it is a process generated flavour.


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## labels (11/10/12)

Muscovy said:


> Have you tried pasteurising your beer for the sake of an experiment to see if the flavours are generated through this process. I am not so familiar with the flavour you speak of but it seems a few of you concur on the fact that they have not tasted it in a homebrew or craft brewed beer...just a thought. Perhaps it is a process generated flavour.


Interesting concept might just experiment, hadn't thought of it before


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## labels (11/10/12)

manticle said:


> It's not meaningless at all, particularly when you yourself understand my perspective, agree or no.
> Can't expand too much as I'm limited to typing on a phone currently but it was suggested to me by a guy that runs various tasting seminars, including fault tasting seminars, that the association he had when tasting trans-2-nonenal (major compound responsible for wet paper oxidation flavour) was with pilsner urquell purchased here. I believe he has tasted it fresh at the brewery.
> 
> It's just a thought - I haven't been lucky enough to try fresh commercial examples either.


Will wait for further expansion on this theory perhaps when you're not confined to mobile but, there is certainly some sense in what you're saying.


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## jimi (11/10/12)

labels said:


> I've got a few ideas - they are a bit radical but I would prefer others to chime in first.
> 
> Steve



We're not scared of radical, why not share your ideas, it might help you get answers and feedback :huh:


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## manticle (11/10/12)

Very simply there is some difference between commercials you've tried and hbs you've tried (and made).

It's got to be a difference in ingredients, methods of producing wort, fermentation, packaging or storage.
In order to compare hb made here with the same ingredients, method and fermentation you need to taste it at the same point OR replicate packaging and storage.

Hope that makes sense - not trying to be antagonistic - just offer possibilities for consideration. A small amount of oxidation doesn't always taste bad. 
Obviously if you are not sure of ingredients etc, then there are more variables.


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## Nick JD (11/10/12)

manticle said:


> Very simply there is some difference between commercials you've tried and hbs you've tried (and made).
> 
> It's got to be a difference in ingredients, methods of producing wort, fermentation, packaging or storage.
> In order to compare hb made here with the same ingredients, method and fermentation you need to taste it at the same point OR replicate packaging and storage.
> ...



It's not oxidation, or unfreshness ... it's "German Pils". I had a Bitburger yesterday that had it in spades. Go buy one and tell me you can create that "german maltiness" at home. Send me a bottle if you can.

I have also tasted it in europe. It's also in the czech pilsners, and no, it's not Hanka grain.

Fucked if I know how they get that flavour. It's a "commercial" flavour that isn't pastuerisation, because not all pasteurised beers have it.


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## Muscovy_333 (11/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> It's not oxidation, or unfreshness ... it's "German Pils". I had a Bitburger yesterday that had it in spades. Go buy one and tell me you can create that "german maltiness" at home. Send me a bottle if you can.
> 
> I have also tasted it in europe. It's also in the czech pilsners, and no, it's not Hanka grain.
> 
> Fucked if I know how they get that flavour. It's a "commercial" flavour that isn't pastuerisation, because not all pasteurised beers have it.



Nick, do you think replicating the process (including pasteurisation) is a fruitless experiment?

And when you mentioned not all pasteurised beers have the flavour were you referring to not all pasteurised Pilsners or just beer in general?


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## Nick JD (11/10/12)

Muscovy said:


> Nick, do you think replicating the process (including pasteurisation) is a fruitless experiment?
> 
> And when you mentioned not all pasteurised beers have the flavour were you referring to not all pasteurised Pilsners or just beer in general?



It's not pasteurisation. Nearly all commercial beers would taste of it. 

Go get a Bitburger. That taste. Commercial Euro Pilsner.

It's a super malty-sweetness that's got a caramel edge. It's that "commercial" taste.


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## mje1980 (12/10/12)

Might be nothing, though a while ago i was at scharers little brewery. I know it had issues with consistency, but i had their german lager, and it had that taste, was sen-*******-sational, and i heard they were using light crystal in the grain bill. Again, might not be much, but the "Beer Styles" book on Continental pilsner ( which is given good reviews by George Fix, and Greg Noonan ) mentions light crystal or caramel malt should be used over munich etc "for enhancing the malt qualities of a full bodied beer". It does mentions carapils, but also clearly mention the lighter lovibond caramel malts "and the lower grades ( 20 and 40 degrees Lovibond ) are most suitable for Pilsners and impart a sweet, mild, caramel smoothness". Chit malt is also mentioned, but says nothing about adding flavour.


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## Renzo (12/10/12)

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/foru...?topic=12545.30 first post top of page 3.

I've gotten pretty close with weyerman bohemian but still not quite the same. I've been on this search for a about a year now as well.

Is there some way we could do a bulk buy of chit malt (spitz malz) as no-one is interested in selling it or stocking it apparently. I've tried Bintani and cryer direct and had no real luck.

I'm pretty convinced the spitz malt is the flavour as most of the german breweries use a hochkurz regime nowadays. Low PH, yeast etc etc are all a given. One other factor may be the spunding the ferementer but I'm calling the spitz malz is the key. 

A fresh Weihenstephan pils has it in bucketloads as does Spaten etc. Even DAB has it.


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## QldKev (12/10/12)

labels said:


> Thanks for input.
> 
> Decoctions. Could go on for hours about this subject but the 'Great Decoction Experiment' from a few years ago from famed homebrewer Denny Conn (USA) showed decoction made little difference (all side-by-side experiments) and my personal experience has concurred.
> 
> ...




I think the Melanoidin helps a lot, I like it at 10%. The only thing I find it does add more color that traditional German lagers. 

QldKev


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## lagers44 (12/10/12)

hi labels, it may have to do with your process , not sure what yours is. 
I can get the grainy flavour but not that malty sweetness though I havent tried crystal malts just Pils, carapils and munich but have noticed when using them the grainyness starts to dissapear the more that are added.
I fly sparge and have always had the grainy flavour in my beers, originally when I started mashing I was getting it in my ales also ! though can't remeber what I did to stop it, I also sparge with 85-90 deg water and no mashout.
My water profile is basically bland which is excellent for lagers/pils.


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## labels (12/10/12)

lagers44 said:


> hi labels, it may have to do with your process , not sure what yours is.
> I can get the grainy flavour but not that malty sweetness though I havent tried crystal malts just Pils, carapils and munich but have noticed when using them the grainyness starts to dissapear the more that are added.
> I fly sparge and have always had the grainy flavour in my beers, originally when I started mashing I was getting it in my ales also ! though can't remeber what I did to stop it, I also sparge with 85-90 deg water and no mashout.
> My water profile is basically bland which is excellent for lagers/pils.



I reckon you're getting close with that. From my sketchy research so far, I understand the Germans sparge with very hot water close to boiling point. That will pull a grainy flavour from the husks so I will be trying that with my next batch. The lager that I have nearly ready (made from Wey Boh Pils) was sparged with over 80C water.

I have read the Germans pay particular attention to pH. This ties in nicely with hot sparging. If the pH is low enough you won't pull astringent compounds from the husks when sparging even if the water is over 75C. I have no problem with malty sweetness in my beers, just need the graininess to get there.

In any case, I'm pretty sure the unique German pils taste is method based rather than ingredients based.

Steve


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## Dave70 (12/10/12)

Edmund Resch was a German brewer (OK, that's meaningless)

_But_ maby cloning this using a decoction mash may get you closer. Always tasted way grainy to me.


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## wessmith (12/10/12)

labels said:


> I reckon you're getting close with that. From my sketchy research so far, I understand the Germans sparge with very hot water close to boiling point. That will pull a grainy flavour from the husks so I will be trying that with my next batch. The lager that I have nearly ready (made from Wey Boh Pils) was sparged with over 80C water.
> 
> I have read the Germans pay particular attention to pH. This ties in nicely with hot sparging. If the pH is low enough you won't pull astringent compounds from the husks when sparging even if the water is over 75C. I have no problem with malty sweetness in my beers, just need the graininess to get there.
> 
> ...



Actually your getting pretty close Steve. It is mostly method based but also a rigid adherence to some basic principles. It starts with the brewing liquor - it MUST be low in minerals, no bicarb hardness at all and have a pH factor around 7.0 or slightly less. Few municipal water supplies in Australia meet this criteria without treatment. The base malt is also critical in that it needs to have sufficient precursors to allow some melanoiden development in mashing and boiling. You dont need a decoction, in fact few if any German breweries still use this technique. Mash pH needs to be right on the button - usually 5.1 to 5.2. To achieve this will require some degree of mash acidulation - not after mashin, but calculated and implemented prior to mashin. Around 1% to 2% of acidulated malt is the recommended addition - any more than that can skew the flavour of the finished beer and in any event if you are not in the desired pH range then there are still problems with the brewing liquor calcium and/or bicarb content.

Sparging (fly sparging is the German norm) is also critical and generally should be around 85C with a pH no more than 6.5. The sparge water will probably need to be separately acidified to achieve that pH range. I use phosphoric acid to achieve this but again you cant "fix" high mineral water simply by adding an acid.

Here is a recipe that I used for competition pilsners back when I did those things. Water supply was from Robertson on the Jambaroo Mountain Road. There is a bottled water supplier who operates from a bore that taps into the main aquifer that eventually feeds down into Wollongong. The standing pH of that water is 6.8. That is very low because of the low mineral content and is ideal for the style. The same can be achieved by using a partial RO blend with most municipal supplies. 

German pilsner malt (Weyermann, Bestmalz) 88 to 90%
German Carapils 8 to 10%
Acidulated malt 2%

Mash L/G ratio 3:1
Mashin @ 58 - 60C 15 mins (do not allow the mash to drop below 58C)
Raise to 65.5 to 66.5C till starch negative (usually around 20 mins)
Raise to 70C 15mins (check a sample of wort AND grist for starch negative)
Raise to mashout @ 78C for 10 mins

Sparge @ 85C

Boil 70mins and chill to 12 -15C and pitch yeast (I use 34/70 and ferment at 9C)

Its not that simple but is typically what the German brewers I have visited over the years use. And writing this reminds of the unfiltered pilsner that is on tap direct from the keg at the small brewery bar at Mahrs Brau in Bamberg. A standout! 

Remember that a pilsner is the most subtle of styles.

Wes


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## labels (12/10/12)

wessmith said:


> Actually your getting pretty close Steve. It is mostly method based but also a rigid adherence to some basic principles. It starts with the brewing liquor - it MUST be low in minerals, no bicarb hardness at all and have a pH factor around 7.0 or slightly less. Few municipal water supplies in Australia meet this criteria without treatment. The base malt is also critical in that it needs to have sufficient precursors to allow some melanoiden development in mashing and boiling. You dont need a decoction, in fact few if any German breweries still use this technique. Mash pH needs to be right on the button - usually 5.1 to 5.2. To achieve this will require some degree of mash acidulation - not after mashin, but calculated and implemented prior to mashin. Around 1% to 2% of acidulated malt is the recommended addition - any more than that can skew the flavour of the finished beer and in any event if you are not in the desired pH range then there are still problems with the brewing liquor calcium and/or bicarb content.
> 
> Sparging (fly sparging is the German norm) is also critical and generally should be around 85C with a pH no more than 6.5. The sparge water will probably need to be separately acidified to achieve that pH range. I use phosphoric acid to achieve this but again you cant "fix" high mineral water simply by adding an acid.
> 
> ...



Spot on with my thoughts. For the beer I have nearly ready I used partial RO water (I have a RO unit) and phosphoric acid to bring my mash water down to around pH6 and done the same with the sparge water. I batch sparged at 85C. My mash was at pH 5.1 from start to finish (after sparging). I think it's important not to let the pH rise during the sparge.

Of course, I am yet to try this beer, it is still seven days away from being ready.

I am a little reluctant to use carapils malt, too much can add an odd flavour and I also see it as a cheats malt, compensating for poor mashing techniques. Probably a bit biased here.

Steve


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## wessmith (12/10/12)

The Carapils is in there to promote head and give a subtle sweetness. It must be German Carapils though. There are other crystals called carapils and caramalt etc that are entirely different. Certainly not a "cheats" malt - it was developed in Germany many decades ago for the pilsner style.

Wes


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/10/12)

wessmith said:


> . Around 1% to 2% of acidulated malt is the recommended addition - any more than that can skew the flavour of the finished beer
> Wes


Wess
I cant agree with this part, I regularly use 5% acid due to water composition and have found no added skew to my beers.
I specialise in lager and pils and have produced trophy beers with 5% Weyermann acidulated malt.
Nev


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## drsmurto (12/10/12)

labels said:


> Thanks for input.
> 
> Decoctions. Could go on for hours about this subject but the 'Great Decoction Experiment' from a few years ago from famed homebrewer Denny Conn (USA) showed decoction made little difference (all side-by-side experiments) and my personal experience has concurred.
> 
> ...



Slightly off topic.....

Decoctions - if you can't see and taste the impact you aren't doing it properly.

What is occurring, as most of you will already know, are maillard reactions - that is, a chemical reaction between a sugar and an amino acid. It occurs in your toaster. You can see the malt darken significantly during a decoction. You can smell the change and you can taste the change.

To suggest this adds nothing suggests to me that the people doing it are either doing it wrong or can't taste the difference due to an undeveloped palate. Just because a celebrity homebrewer can't tell the difference does not end the discussion. I doubt they did a proper blind tasting (difference test, triangle test). 

German pilsners, different kettle of fish. The flavour is completely different and tastes nothing like decocted malt. I've never made a german pilsner that tastes as good as commercial pilsners but a bo pils, yes. I don't decoct a german pils, I've tried but didn't like the result.

Great info from both labels and wessmith on the pH and temperature which i will play with during my next german pils.


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## labels (12/10/12)

DrSmurto said:


> What is occurring, as most of you will already know, are maillard reactions - that is, a chemical reaction between a sugar and an amino acid. It occurs in your toaster. You can see the malt darken significantly during a decoction. You can smell the change and you can taste the change.
> 
> To suggest this adds nothing suggests to me that the people doing it are either doing it wrong or can't taste the difference due to an undeveloped palate. Just because a celebrity homebrewer can't tell the difference does not end the discussion. I doubt they did a proper blind tasting (difference test, triangle test).
> 
> Great info from both labels and wessmith on the pH and temperature which i will play with during my next german pils.



The last desoction I did was on the beer that is not quite ready yet, the lager made with Weyy Boh Pils. Primary reason was missing my target temperature - a rare occurance for me. However, I thought I'd stretch it a bit while I am at it, taking about half of the thick mash and boiling quite vigorously for twenty minutes. Yes, it got a little darker and the smell changed from starchy/grainy to smelling like toasted muesli - very nice actually. What effect this has on the finished beer is a guess as the beer is not ready yet, 7 days to go.

Steve


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## squirt in the turns (12/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> I even have a sneaking suspicion that it's fermenting huge volumes.



What is the effect that this has on the finished beer? This is, by definition, one of the things that as homebrewers we cannot replicate. The consensus of this discussion now seems to be that other aspects of the process and ingredients are responsible, however if it were possible, it would presumably be beneficial to somehow emulate the effects of large volumes, to get closer to the commercial product. 



Renzo said:


> One other factor may be the spunding the ferementer



Would this be a way to achieve this? Maybe ferment in a keg with a regulator set to release pressure at level found in the depths of huge commercial vessels?

I think I've read somewhere that fermenting at higher pressures also allows the temperature to be higher, presumably accelerating the process (which seems like the sort of thing a commercial brewery would be interested in). I can't cite a source and am happy to be corrected if I'm way off the mark there.


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## Nick JD (12/10/12)

In-house malting (or proprietary malting). Another pretty big and overlooked factor here. 

Maybe some of these beers are single malt - but that one base malt is processed to exact requirements...


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## mika (12/10/12)

Wessmith's experience has shone a different light on the subject, otherwise I'd agree completely with Manticle. Pilsner's in the motherland are completely different to what we get out here and what Nick is identifying as that super-malty sweetness with a caramel edge, is beer that is well past it's best. I also used to identify that taste with German Pilsner, having tasted from the source, I now know different.


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## wessmith (12/10/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Wess
> I cant agree with this part, I regularly use 5% acid due to water composition and have found no added skew to my beers.
> I specialise in lager and pils and have produced trophy beers with 5% Weyermann acidulated malt.
> Nev



Hi Nev, 5% is way to high for a pils for me but the fact you get no flavour impact is probably due to the water profile you are using. Why do you need 5% acidulated malt? Basically to neutralise the calcium salts in your water and aid the buffering process on mashin. Surely you would be better off without those excess salts which must add something to the flavour profile of your beers. Do you agree?

Wes


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## Nick JD (12/10/12)

mika said:


> Wessmith's experience has shone a different light on the subject, otherwise I'd agree completely with Manticle. Pilsner's in the motherland are completely different to what we get out here and what Nick is identifying as that super-malty sweetness with a caramel edge, is beer that is well past it's best. I also used to identify that taste with German Pilsner, having tasted from the source, I now know different.



I've drunken it in Germany too. German megaswills there taste just like they do here.

That grainy sweetness is not an age issue. It's not a "fault"


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## wessmith (12/10/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Slightly off topic.....
> 
> Decoctions - if you can't see and taste the impact you aren't doing it properly.
> 
> ...



Doc, have a look at the article on decoction by Charlie Bamforth in the current issue of Brewers Guardian - it makes a good read. www.brewers-guardian.com

Wes


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## Nick JD (12/10/12)

http://www.brewersguardian.com/

http://www.brewersguardian.com/index.php/h...blogs/1410.html

Plenty on DMS ... not much on flavour development.


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## Muscovy_333 (12/10/12)

squirt in the turns said:


> What is the effect that this has on the finished beer? This is, by definition, one of the things that as homebrewers we cannot replicate. The consensus of this discussion now seems to be that other aspects of the process and ingredients are responsible, however if it were possible, it would presumably be beneficial to somehow emulate the effects of large volumes, to get closer to the commercial product.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have just built a fermenter with this cabability. Next brew will be my trial run. A couple of blokes on this forum use regulated fermenters for a range of reasons. 
I will report when i have some evidence to support my theory


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## dent (12/10/12)

squirt in the turns said:


> I think I've read somewhere that fermenting at higher pressures also allows the temperature to be higher, presumably accelerating the process (which seems like the sort of thing a commercial brewery would be interested in). I can't cite a source and am happy to be corrected if I'm way off the mark there.



I have been doing this (14 degrees @ 18psi), it works well, but has no effect on the pilsneryness of the beer.


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## Nick JD (12/10/12)

dent said:


> I have been doing this (14 degrees @ 18psi), it works well, but has no effect on the pilsneryness of the beer.



So that's about the bottom of a 20 foot fermenter?


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## dent (12/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> So that's about the bottom of a 20 foot fermenter?



I dunno, probably. The raised temperature is the important part as far as I am concerned. The lagers are finishing fast and clean.


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## drsmurto (12/10/12)

wessmith said:


> Doc, have a look at the article on decoction by Charlie Bamforth in the current issue of Brewers Guardian - it makes a good read. www.brewers-guardian.com
> 
> Wes



Cheers for the link, however it does not address the chemical reaction between an amino acid and a sugar, molecules that are in abundance in the mash tun.

I've never argued decoctions are necessary from the point of view of mash techniques, simply on the basis of this one 'simple' chemical reaction that occurs which results in flavours you don't get without it. You can add melanoidin but I personally don't like the result so don't. 

Toast tastes like toast and not microwaved bread due to the maillard reaction. The surface of a steak after frying. Dark crusted bread. None of these things would look, smell or taste the way they do if not for this simple chemical reaction.

When you boil the mash you get the same chemistry. 

I do it because i love the flavour, nothing to do with adhering to any tradition, BJCP guideline or OCD. 

But this is still OT as it is not the character you get in a german pilsner, that still eludes me so i cover it up with excessive levels of hallertau and tettnang


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## mika (12/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> So that's about the bottom of a 20 foot fermenter?



Given a 20ft fermenter (~6.096m) and a fluid density between 1000 kg/m3 (water) up to 1040 kg/m3, static pressure at the bottom of the fermenter would be 8.6 - 9 psi, decreasing proportionally to 0 at the top of the liquid level.


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## Bizier (12/10/12)

dent said:


> Yeah there is something in the commercial German (*not *Czech) pilsners that has that grainy taste/aroma that I have no idea where it comes from. It actually stands out more in some of the cheaper brands. This is nothing to do with Czech style decoction derived melanoidins, or the flavours you get from using the (floor malted) bohemian pils malt either. I have never tasted this in any non-commerical beer, nor any from any pilsners from Australian craft breweries.
> 
> Anyone have any ideas?


Who know what malt they are using. They would probably be using their most economical local malt by the multiple silo full. I am pretty sure Weyermann only represents a small part of the German base malt spectrum.

I know decoction was mentioned, but you did not specify your mash regime. This is something the Germans are pretty specific about.


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## Bizier (12/10/12)

Muscovy said:


> Have you tried pasteurising your beer for the sake of an experiment to see if the flavours are generated through this process. I am not so familiar with the flavour you speak of but it seems a few of you concur on the fact that they have not tasted it in a homebrew or craft brewed beer...just a thought. Perhaps it is a process generated flavour.


Trust me, that is not it.


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## labels (12/10/12)

It makes sense not to try too many things at once. I am going to concentrate on (1) water profile, (2) pH of mash especially during the sparge (3) high sparge temperature relying on the low pH to keep the astringency levels low.

The beer I have now which is nearly ready has had (1) a decoction mainly because I was way low with my mash-in water, 20 minute boil of thick mash to raise temp tp 63C (2) 2nd step mash using a HERMS coil to raise to 70C so both alpha and beta at about 30 minutes each, (3) Weyermann Boh pils malt (4) Wyeast 2001 yeast (5) RO water (6) tight pH control (7) tight temp control during fermentation. the beer will be at 6 weeks by the time I keg which is next weekend.

It would be good for AHB'ers to give feedback on their pilsners in this thread - or start a new one with what you have tried and what worked and what didn't since so many people are interested in making pilsners.

Steve


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## Nick JD (12/10/12)

labels said:


> It makes sense not to try too many things at once. I am going to concentrate on (1) water profile, (2) pH of mash especially during the sparge (3) high sparge temperature relying on the low pH to keep the astringency levels low.
> 
> The beer I have now which is nearly ready has had (1) a decoction mainly because I was way low with my mash-in water, 20 minute boil of thick mash to raise temp tp 63C (2) 2nd step mash using a HERMS coil to raise to 70C so both alpha and beta at about 30 minutes each, (3) Weyermann Boh pils malt (4) Wyeast 2001 yeast (5) RO water (6) tight pH control (7) tight temp control during fermentation. the beer will be at 6 weeks by the time I keg which is next weekend.
> 
> ...



There's a big difference between German Pilsner and Bohemian. The grain, hops and yeast are different. Steve, check out what makes a Czech Pilsner not be a German Pilsner.


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## labels (12/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> There's a big difference between German Pilsner and Bohemian. The grain, hops and yeast are different. Steve, check out what makes a Czech Pilsner not be a German Pilsner.



Yes, I know that. The beer under way at the moment is more skewed to a bohemian pils. Nevertheless, there are a lot of similarites. I've tried Wey pils and Wey premium pils malts and get great lagers but pilsners, they are not. This thread is about pilsners, mainly German pilsners as per my original post but not exclusively German. I mean, I've had great pils from Austria, Poland, Slovenia, Russia and a few other eastern European countries as well as Germany and the Czech Republic. So it's a pretty broad category. But remember you can make great lagers from ale malt and great ales from lager malt so I don't think the difference is really massive, very noticable but not worlds apart for lightly kilned base malts.

Steve


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## the_new_darren (12/10/12)

Its funny. Prior to visiting Germany myself I expected that German Pilsener was going to be some god sent product that only the Germans (and other Europeans) would experience fresh.

However, once sampling numerous of these hallowed products I was unpleasently surprised to find that German pilsener tasted remarkably like any Australian megaswill.

And I agree, reproducing Australian megaswill (Euro-hopped lager) is extremely difficult on a HB scale!!!

Certainly it has alot to do with the water profile but just as importantly (perhaps more) it it is due to the tens-of-thousands of dollars spent on ensuring clonal specificity of the yeast?

If you buy a "smack pack" of yeast from X supplier, do you really think you have a propriety yeast? 

All the data in the world about pressure, melanoidins, mashing profiles even water chemistry does not compesate for a strain of yeast that is highly protected and generally unavailable to the casual homebrewer.

tnd


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## Renzo (12/10/12)

wessmith said:


> Actually your getting pretty close Steve. It is mostly method based but also a rigid adherence to some basic principles. It starts with the brewing liquor - it MUST be low in minerals, no bicarb hardness at all and have a pH factor around 7.0 or slightly less. Few municipal water supplies in Australia meet this criteria without treatment. The base malt is also critical in that it needs to have sufficient precursors to allow some melanoiden development in mashing and boiling. You dont need a decoction, in fact few if any German breweries still use this technique. Mash pH needs to be right on the button - usually 5.1 to 5.2. To achieve this will require some degree of mash acidulation - not after mashin, but calculated and implemented prior to mashin. Around 1% to 2% of acidulated malt is the recommended addition - any more than that can skew the flavour of the finished beer and in any event if you are not in the desired pH range then there are still problems with the brewing liquor calcium and/or bicarb content.
> 
> Sparging (fly sparging is the German norm) is also critical and generally should be around 85C with a pH no more than 6.5. The sparge water will probably need to be separately acidified to achieve that pH range. I use phosphoric acid to achieve this but again you cant "fix" high mineral water simply by adding an acid.
> 
> ...




Wes, Roughly how much phos acid p/litre did you use taking into account your water was ph6.8. I realise that everyones water is different but just a ballpark so I can try it without adding too much by adding a bit at a time while I measure. FYI I use 100% RO water and acid malt and CACL to get mash PH low but haven't even considered sparge with phos acid. BTW do most hb stores sell Phos acid?


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## the_new_darren (12/10/12)

Get some pH strips. Cheap and effective.

Dont be tempted to buy a pH meter. Waste of money as you will only use it twice.

tnd


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## Renzo (13/10/12)

the_new_darren said:


> Get some pH strips. Cheap and effective.
> 
> Dont be tempted to buy a pH meter. Waste of money as you will only use it twice.
> 
> tnd





I've got a handheld meter. 

No big deal, just was looking for a rough %. I'll just add a bit to 1 litre and see what it does.


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## Renzo (22/10/12)

labels said:


> The last desoction I did was on the beer that is not quite ready yet, the lager made with Weyy Boh Pils. Primary reason was missing my target temperature - a rare occurance for me. However, I thought I'd stretch it a bit while I am at it, taking about half of the thick mash and boiling quite vigorously for twenty minutes. Yes, it got a little darker and the smell changed from starchy/grainy to smelling like toasted muesli - very nice actually. What effect this has on the finished beer is a guess as the beer is not ready yet, 7 days to go.
> 
> Steve


 So how did it go? By sparging at 85C (low PH) do you get that German pils graininess coming through? (as oppsoed to the decoction melanoiden taste)


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## labels (22/10/12)

Renzo said:


> So how did it go? By sparging at 85C (low PH) do you get that German pils graininess coming through? (as oppsoed to the decoction melanoiden taste)



Alas I did not. The sparge water was very hot so I thought I would get huskiness coming through. Very clean lager but I rate it low. I am not doing this recipe again - 9.2kg Wey Boh pils, 0.5Kg Melanoidin, 0.3Kg Bairds med crystal for 50L. It is too heavy, too malty in a sweetish cloying way though not excessively., just not balanced.

Next will be 100% Boh pils with beta and alpha amylase rests. Boh pils malt is malty enough without anything added IMO.

Next W/E I will doing a straight up lager with BB Galaxy malt. I'v had such great success with this malt over the years and glad it's back on the shelves again after a hiatus. 8Kg Galaxy, 1Kg Wey Carapils, 1Kg Maris Otter - 50L batch. MO adds a great depth of flavour to a lager without bogging it down.


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## dmcke109 (22/10/12)

Hi Labels - been reading through this and I to love the taste of German pils! I have also devoted some time to replicating them. Whilst reading the posts I noticed that many concentrated on the grain bill (recipe), water and decoction (method) - all of which are obviously very important and must be right to produce any good beer style. What do you think about fermentation? A good German pils tastes crisp and dry. If the beer cannot attenuate enough the end result can be a little too sweet. I've been focussing recently on the grain bill (quality pils malt as mentioned in previous posts), moderate water hardness, low mash temp (64 degrees) and a low pitching temperature of 10 degrees Celsius with diacetyl rest and lagering for at least 4 weeks on the yeast cake prior to filtering and kegging. The big difference from previous brews Has been the use of pitching at a low temp and gradually letting it rise over a period of a few weeks. I know this all sounds pretty simple but I've been been pretty happy with the results of these pils since using this method. I'm not saying they are as good as a genuine German pils but they are pretty close - anyway that's my two cents.......good luck in your quest.

PS - I totally agree with dr smurto that decoction def makes a difference (once again my two cents  )


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## hockadays (22/10/12)

Wheres zwickle? I think all megaswill here tastes the same cause they brew high gravity and dilute and add hop oils at packaging. I diluted a beer i made recently that came out to big and when i did this it seemed to refine the flavour of the grain somewhat. I have also been chasing this flavour and aroma for some time and I have had hints of it with Wyeast munich larger 2308. It had the same aroma as when i stuck my nose in a stein of Spaten. Closest Ive come thus far. I also ferment under pressure and also spund to final carbonation and all this does is help keep your hop aroma from being scrubbed out by the CO2 produced through fermentation. Ive also tried the flaked barley as well with no great success. This chit malt I think could also be part of it or just the general specs of the base pilsner malt they are using over there. Just think that none of the beers brewed in Australia under licence have this flavour do they? becks brewed here doesnt have it..
Any thoughts?


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## labels (22/10/12)

hop_alot said:


> Hi Labels - been reading through this and I to love the taste of German pils! I have also devoted some time to replicating them. Whilst reading the posts I noticed that many concentrated on the grain bill (recipe), water and decoction (method) - all of which are obviously very important and must be right to produce any good beer style. What do you think about fermentation? A good German pils tastes crisp and dry. If the beer cannot attenuate enough the end result can be a little too sweet. I've been focussing recently on the grain bill (quality pils malt as mentioned in previous posts), moderate water hardness, low mash temp (64 degrees) and a low pitching temperature of 10 degrees Celsius with diacetyl rest and lagering for at least 4 weeks on the yeast cake prior to filtering and kegging. The big difference from previous brews Has been the use of pitching at a low temp and gradually letting it rise over a period of a few weeks. I know this all sounds pretty simple but I've been been pretty happy with the results of these pils since using this method. I'm not saying they are as good as a genuine German pils but they are pretty close - anyway that's my two cents.......good luck in your quest.
> 
> PS - I totally agree with dr smurto that decoction def makes a difference (once again my two cents  )



I do pretty much what you do except I pitch warm and immediately put into a freezer at -2C. As the thermal mass warms up, the freezer is set at 9C with a 2C differential. I give up on decoctions, I seriously doubt any German beer you buy uses a decoction these days. 
In short, you're saying tempertaure control is important at all steps and I agree.
I am more than happy with my lagers and so is everyone else that drinks them so I'll stick to my method.
The only thing I don't agree with you is hard water. Pilsner is made from soft water, although northen German beers like DAB use moderatley hard water which is probably what you're trying to copy.

Steve


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## dmcke109 (22/10/12)

I used to pitch warm and then lower to fermentation temp but someone (can't remember who) told me to give chilling the beer to a lower temp, then aerate the bugger out of it and pitch a quality amount of the right yeast for a lager. Since doing that my lagers have really improved. I've since found out the technical term for this is the Narziss fermentation. This fermentation method seems to reduce esters and diacetyl resulting in a 'cleaner' beer. 

I must admit I haven't done decoctions in a while - I have a 13month old that keeps me nice and busy so I seem to skip that step nowadays 



labels said:


> I do pretty much what you do except I pitch warm and immediately put into a freezer at -2C. As the thermal mass warms up, the freezer is set at 9C with a 2C differential. I give up on decoctions, I seriously doubt any German beer you buy uses a decoction these days.
> In short, you're saying tempertaure control is important at all steps and I agree.
> I am more than happy with my lagers and so is everyone else that drinks them so I'll stick to my method.
> The only thing I don't agree with you is hard water. Pilsner is made from soft water, although northen German beers like DAB use moderatley hard water which is probably what you're trying to copy.
> ...


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## Nick JD (22/10/12)

If you search the internets just about every brewing forum has someone ask this same question at some point in time and no one ever has a good answer to it. Strangely enough, almost all the threads cycle through the same suggestions: pH, Malt selection, boil, water chem, decoction or no, oxidized... etc etc. 

Chit malt seems to get some weight in this thread.  

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic....=1&t=101653


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## labels (22/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> If you search the internets just about every brewing forum has someone ask this same question at some point in time and no one ever has a good answer to it. Strangely enough, almost all the threads cycle through the same suggestions: pH, Malt selection, boil, water chem, decoction or no, oxidized... etc etc.
> 
> Chit malt seems to get some weight in this thread.



No doubt you're correct. Yes, I've been through it on RCB a few years back. But as homebrewers become more knowledgable new information comes to light.

Chit malt is a very undermodified malt and the German's answer to getting around the purity laws. FYI, I have tried using a proportion of unmalted crushed barley (malting quality) to simulate this and still made little difference.

I am not one to give up easily Nick, either.

Steve


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## Renzo (23/10/12)

I would love to get hold of some chit malt and have tried flaked barley and it also made little difference. And from everything I've read flaked barley is not the same as chit malt anyhow. This w/kend I'll try Wes's recipe and method.


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## Renzo (23/10/12)

I found this also online with some authentic recipes etc at the end. The Shoenramer Pils brewer doesn't say much about sparge temp but lists his malt ingredients and interestingly does a single decoction. I'm pretty sure decoction is not the flavour I'm tasting in German beers as I don't think weihenstephan do one. An interesting read anyhow. 

View attachment SteveHolle_GermanBrewing_1_.pdf


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## Nick JD (23/10/12)

80% Vienna, 20% Munich?


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## Renzo (23/10/12)

Nick JD said:


> 80% Vienna, 20% Munich?




Which one?


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## wessmith (23/10/12)

Renzo said:


> Wes, Roughly how much phos acid p/litre did you use taking into account your water was ph6.8. I realise that everyones water is different but just a ballpark so I can try it without adding too much by adding a bit at a time while I measure. FYI I use 100% RO water and acid malt and CACL to get mash PH low but haven't even considered sparge with phos acid. BTW do most hb stores sell Phos acid?



Hi Renzo, sorry I missed your post. Last first - few HB stores will sell H3PO4 and it cant be mailed unfortunately. With 100% RO you will need to rebuild more than the calcium. Some of the other trace elements like magnesium and zinc are essential as are the sulphate and chloride ions. You dont mention pH - can you measure? if the pH is around 7 or less then you dont need to add any acid to the RO sparge water BUT you will need some calcium content. One thing you might consider is blending your non RO water with the RO product to get a balance of mineral content. 

As a general comment I would be reluctant to add any acid to RO water for sparging. As a guide I used around 1ml of H3PO4 per 100l water with the town supply at my old address but there was some bicarbonate hardness and around 60ppm total calcium. You really need to know your water analysis to determine what to do.

Can I suggest you read Noonans "New Brewing Lager Beer" - his chapter on water is very good.

Wes


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## Renzo (23/10/12)

Thanks for your reply Wes.

With 100% RO (for pils & lagers) I use approx 2.5% sauermalz and approx 1/2 tablespoon CaCl (and a touch of sulphate in the kettle) and that usally gets me around ph5.2 in the mash for an all pils malt brew. I also use Wyeast Nutrient in the kettle.

I bought some citric acid which I was going to add to my sparge water to make sure it's around ph6 before I sparge but I might just add some CaCl instead?.


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## wessmith (23/10/12)

Renzo, all your assumptions seem to ignore the actual pH. Try away but you need at some point to measure the pH to know what is really happening. Why would you need citric or any other acid if the pH is already in the ballpark? Remember this topic is about getting pilsner into a pilsner. The style is so subtle and probably the most difficult of all styles to get right.

Wes


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## labels (23/10/12)

wessmith said:


> Hi Renzo, sorry I missed your post. Last first - few HB stores will sell H3PO4 and it cant be mailed unfortunately. With 100% RO you will need to rebuild more than the calcium. Some of the other trace elements like magnesium and zinc are essential as are the sulphate and chloride ions. You dont mention pH - can you measure? if the pH is around 7 or less then you dont need to add any acid to the RO sparge water BUT you will need some calcium content. One thing you might consider is blending your non RO water with the RO product to get a balance of mineral content.
> 
> As a general comment I would be reluctant to add any acid to RO water for sparging. As a guide I used around 1ml of H3PO4 per 100l water with the town supply at my old address but there was some bicarbonate hardness and around 60ppm total calcium. You really need to know your water analysis to determine what to do.
> 
> Can I suggest you read Noonans "New Brewing Lager Beer" - his chapter on water is very good



I read you article with some interest regarding adding calcium back to RO water. The last few batches of lager I have made have turned out extremely good using 100% RO water without any additives. Measured pH before treatment is around pH 8.5 and about 7.3pH after. I add a minute amount of Phos acid to drop it down a tad. However, measuring pH of the mash during the sparge is probably more important than the water.
How many and what quantity of minerals there are in the malt is something I don't know. The plant must uptake minerals during growth and they would therefore end up in the mash and have an effect on the mash. I see little referrence to this when talking about the mineral content of water but is probably worth exploring.
All my ferments are strong and vigorous (as far as lagers go) and ferment out within the acceptable time frame.
Does this mean mineral content of water is very important, somewhat important or not important when brewing light lagers?

Steve


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## manticle (23/10/12)

wessmith said:


> Last first - few HB stores will sell H3PO4 and it cant be mailed unfortunately.



Are you sure? I have bought Phosphoric acid a couple of times from my HBS via mailorder. Starsan is also often mailed.

Is there a particular concentration that is illegal to mail (think the stuff I get is around 80% but can't check because last time I went lactic instead of phosphoric)?


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## Renzo (23/10/12)

wessmith said:


> Renzo, all your assumptions seem to ignore the actual pH. Try away but you need at some point to measure the pH to know what is really happening. Why would you need citric or any other acid if the pH is already in the ballpark? Remember this topic is about getting pilsner into a pilsner. The style is so subtle and probably the most difficult of all styles to get right.
> 
> Wes




No probs. My ph is all good in the mash ( with sauermalz and CaCl added to mash only). I was under the assumption that to sparge ( I fly sparge) with 85C water I may need to add citric to the sparge water only to lower the PH of the RO Sparge water ( have already accounted for the mash) in order to avoid tannin extraxtion? 

I do measure the PH of the mash with my handheld PH meter, but to date have ignored the sparge water totally and just sparged with 100% RO.


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## manticle (23/10/12)

labels said:


> I read you article with some interest regarding adding calcium back to RO water. The last few batches of lager I have made have turned out extremely good using 100% RO water without any additives. Measured pH before treatment is around pH 8.5 and about 7.3pH after. I add a minute amount of Phos acid to drop it down a tad. However, measuring pH of the mash during the sparge is probably more important than the water.
> How many and what quantity of minerals there are in the malt is something I don't know. The plant must uptake minerals during growth and they would therefore end up in the mash and have an effect on the mash. I see little referrence to this when talking about the mineral content of water but is probably worth exploring.
> All my ferments are strong and vigorous (as far as lagers go) and ferment out within the acceptable time frame.
> Does this mean mineral content of water is very important, somewhat important or not important when brewing light lagers?
> ...



My understanding of reading about water chemistry (not specifically for lagers but for things common to all beers like yeast health, mash efficiency etc) is that calcium, zinc, phosphates and magnesium should be at appropriate levels for a variety of reasons.

Magnesium and phosphates should be in adequate levels already with most regular mashes as the malt has sufficient amounts, calcium may need to be added and zinc will also likely need to be added (especially/will absolutely if you are using mineral free water).

Carbonate and bicarbonate levels are also important but mainly to ensure they are not too high (not an issue with RO water).

Sulphate and chloride levels mainly affect flavour balance (bitterness and malt perception) as long as they are not ridiculously high.

The article Renzo linked highlights the importance of pH in the mash but also in the fermentation and in the final product - something I've never explored.


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## labels (9/11/12)

After more researching I think I might have come up with something that has some merit.

I have NOT tried this and it may not be practical at a home brew level.

Fermenation and lagering.

After the boil, drop the temperature to around 4C. Rack the wort off the cold trub (which has formed greater than normal due to the cold temperature).

Pitch at 4C. Your yeast starters should also be at 4C ( but not crashed chilled to 4C of course, you could inhibit viability), the wort should be well oxygenated.

Allow the temperature to rise to 9C and ferment until about 60% to 70% attenuated.

Rack the beer into kegs and purge the head space with CO2. Fit the kegs with a pressure bleed valve to stop excessive pressure build up ( I don't know what pressure but set at 10psi sounds reasonable)

Drop by 0.5C per day unti 4C is reached and then hold for four weeks.

After four weeks, the beer should be attenuated to about 95%, slight under attenuation is desirable.

During this period of time, the beer (a) finishes fermenting (not 100% (B) lagers and and is &copy; naturally carbonated. 

Drop the temperature to -2C until the yeast has floculated and polyphenols and proteins have dropped out and chillhaze drops out too if present.

Rack to another keg and filter at this time if required. Note the dip tubes on the kegs need to be shorter or some device fitted to them so they leave sediment behind. Note, racking should be done under pressure and with air purged from the kegs to avoid oxidising problems.

Adjust carbonation and serve.

I have shifted the focus for getting the 'Pilsner' taste from wort production to fermentation and lagering techniques as I think this may produce the results I am seeking

Steve


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## hockadays (10/11/12)

This process is bunging and i have been doing it alot recently and its its great for keeping some of the hop flavour in that quite often gets scrubbed out by the release of co2. I think part of the flavour your after comes from the yeast as i suggested try the munich lager wyeast strain with the temp profile your talking about and the other flavour Im pretty sure comes from the chit malt. Give that strain a try and report back. I think youll be suprised. That yeast emphasises the malt and its pretty close with the weyermann pils malt but not exactly hence why I think its also the chit malt.


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## Renzo (10/11/12)

hockadays said:


> This process is bunging and i have been doing it alot recently and its its great for keeping some of the hop flavour in that quite often gets scrubbed out by the release of co2. I think part of the flavour your after comes from the yeast as i suggested try the munich lager wyeast strain with the temp profile your talking about and the other flavour Im pretty sure comes from the chit malt. Give that strain a try and report back. I think youll be suprised. That yeast emphasises the malt and its pretty close with the weyermann pils malt but not exactly hence why I think its also the chit malt.



I also believe chit malt ( spitzmalz) may be the key. Question is, where can you get chit malt from in OZ. From what I've read chit malt is not the same as flaked barley.


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## Nick JD (10/11/12)

Renzo said:


> I also believe chit malt ( spitzmalz) may be the key. Question is, where can you get chit malt from in OZ. From what I've read chit malt is not the same as flaked barley.



It's on the Weyermann site, but only ze German one. Description says it's for better foam stability.

http://www.weyermann.de/ger/produkte.asp?i...2&sprache=1


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## labels (10/11/12)

hockadays said:


> This process is bunging and i have been doing it alot recently and its its great for keeping some of the hop flavour in that quite often gets scrubbed out by the release of co2. I think part of the flavour your after comes from the yeast as i suggested try the munich lager wyeast strain with the temp profile your talking about and the other flavour Im pretty sure comes from the chit malt. Give that strain a try and report back. I think youll be suprised. That yeast emphasises the malt and its pretty close with the weyermann pils malt but not exactly hence why I think its also the chit malt.




Yes, that sounds pretty interesting and makes a lot of sense. The chit malt seems impossible to get so I'll work with what's available.

This information is from Weyermann's website, Bohemian Lager recipe and suggests that lagering starts before fermentation is finished in a pressurised vessel ( I am thinking of getting a working 50L keg for this as I brew in 50L batches)

Fermentation: 
Yeast: Fermentis Saflager W-34/70 dry yeast 
Pitching temperature: 10C (50F) F
Fermentation temperature: 12C (54F) 
Tank capped at a gravity of 1.018 (4.5P) 
Lagering/conditioning temperature in cylindro-conical tank: 1C (34F) 
Filtration: On July 15, 2004. <end Weyermann quote>

However, it won't be until early 2013 before I get the chance to try this.

Steve


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## Nick JD (10/11/12)

labels said:


> Yes, that sounds pretty interesting and makes a lot of sense. The chit malt seems impossible to get so I'll work with what's available.
> 
> This information is from Weyermann's website, Bohemian Lager recipe and suggests that lagering starts before fermentation is finished in a pressurised vessel ( I am thinking of getting a working 50L keg for this as I brew in 50L batches)
> 
> ...



Bohemian lager? I thought this thread was about German Pils?


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## labels (10/11/12)

Nick JD said:


> Bohemian lager? I thought this thread was about German Pils?



Yes it is but this is the only lager recipe on their site that details fermentation. They suggest the last of fermentation (from 1.018 down) is done in a pressurised vessel supporting my earlier statement about this procedure. This is a typical German fermentation regime so I thought it might be of interest

Steve


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## Renzo (10/11/12)

Nick JD said:


> It's on the Weyermann site, but only ze German one. Description says it's for better foam stability.
> 
> http://www.weyermann.de/ger/produkte.asp?i...2&sprache=1




I know. But no-one in Oz stocks it and it's a PITA to order it, it seems.


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## Renzo (10/11/12)

labels said:


> Yes it is but this is the only lager recipe on their site that details fermentation. They suggest the last of fermentation (from 1.018 down) is done in a pressurised vessel supporting my earlier statement about this procedure. This is a typical German fermentation regime so I thought it might be of interest
> 
> Steve






Spunding a tank is common in germany and also a lot of other breweries around the world. I use a spunding valve on my SS conical for lagers. Check out that PDF link I posted a few pages back in this thread re SO2 (pg 36, 37). I still think that Chit malt is the key.

Schoenramer Pils
Brauerei Schoenram, Schoenram, Bavaria
• soft water, low alkalinity, chloride and sulfate ions enhances body and aroma respectively
• very pale barley variety with a lot of enzyme activity (we use the variety Barke, the palest available)
• intense mash, single-decoction best as it boosts attenuation. Rests vary according to year, but a long
time around 65C is necessary
• high attenuation (>87% apparent) enhances hop character (dryness) and at the same time, through the
higher level of alcohol, adds a sweetness to balance out the bitterness
• I am a proponent of aroma hop varieties and use only aroma varieties for my Pils (as for all my beers),
even for the bittering - 4 different varieties given 5 times, more than 50% as late hopping, all are Bavarian
hop varieties from the Hallertau and Spalt (the varieties and combination a secret I'm not at liberty to give
away)
• enough evaporation to drive out DMS ( > 5.5% )
• acidification of mash and wort to adjust pH (lactic acid derived from the malt and propagated to around
1.5%)
• hot trub separation with the whirlpool, cold trub separation with flotation tank
• fermentation in open vessels beginning around 7C, max. temperature 9C, pitching rate 18 million cells
per ml (about 1 liter of thick yeast per hl)
• ferment close to final attenuation, cool to 3C over 2 days (total fermentation time with cooling around 8
days) add 8% kraeusen beer when transferring to lagering
• we skim our fermentation head almost daily
• hold in tank at 3C for 2 weeks until vigorous secondary fermentation begins to calm down, gradually
cool to below 0C (around minus one) over two weeks
• last two weeks below freezing, total lagering 6 weeks, 5 weeks is also OK, but not less
• ensure minimal oxygen take-up at bottling


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## labels (10/11/12)

Renzo said:


> Spunding a tank is common in germany and also a lot of other breweries around the world. I use a spunding valve on my SS conical for lagers. Check out that PDF link I posted a few pages back in this thread re SO2 (pg 36, 37). I still think that Chit malt is the key.



Thanks Renzo, I am familiar with that document. Interesting you are using the spunding technique. What do you use as a spunding valve? What about the pressure valves on pressure cookers, they are 10 -15lbs/" usually. As I said I wouldn't know what pressure to hold the tank at. I won't be investing in a conical because of refigeration restrictions but I thought the 50L keg with a shortened dip tube might do the job.

Steve


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## booargy (10/11/12)

labels said:


> Thanks Renzo, I am familiar with that document. Interesting you are using the spunding technique. What do you use as a spunding valve? What about the pressure valves on pressure cookers, they are 10 -15lbs/" usually. As I said I wouldn't know what pressure to hold the tank at. I won't be investing in a conical because of refigeration restrictions but I thought the 50L keg with a shortened dip tube might do the job.
> 
> Steve



labels this is the one I useVisit My Website


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## Renzo (10/11/12)

Mines pretty much the same as booargys. I just quick disconnect it on to the top of my conical once fermentations almost done. Works well.


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## mr_wibble (11/11/12)

Hi,

You can buy Spitz Malt online from "brew and smoke" shop ~

http://www.brauundrauchshop.ch/100/con_lis...sStartPageNext=

The link is to the per-kilogram price, but they also sell it in 25kg bags.
I would expect air-mail postage on up to four kilograms to be around 40 franks (AUD$45)

I used to buy my homebrew stuff from these guys for a while when I lived overseas, and only ever had great service.

I emailed them a while ago and asked if they'd ship to AU, and they said it was no problem, but were concerned about the postage costs.

The website is only available in German & French, if you need help with it the German please feel free to PM me. 

So, hopefully this helps with the Pilsner odyssey.

cheers,
-kt


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## labels (11/11/12)

Mr Wibble said:


> Hi,
> 
> You can buy Spitz Malt online from "brew and smoke" shop ~
> 
> ...



Thank you very much it does help

Lets see what others think - bulk lots?


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## Renzo (11/11/12)

labels said:


> Thank you very much it does help
> 
> Lets see what others think - bulk lots?




I'd be into that. I'm looking to get between 2-5kg


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## manticle (11/11/12)

I'd have a crack at 5 - 10 kg if the price etc was right.


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## Florian (11/11/12)

You can also buy it by the Kilo on Ebay Germany:

There are two sellers, both sell milled and unmilled. 

Postage is about 17 Euros for up to 2kg on DHL (the seller doesn't state this, though), so a bit cheaper than the swiss option. 

Still not sure if it brings any other results than unmalted barley. Even on the german forums people seem to think that it's only a way to get around the Reinheitsgebot.


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## labels (27/2/13)

Resurecting this topic, my final conclusion to date is the Germans start their lagering procedure before fermentation is completely finished. This leaves an unfermented portion in the final beer hence the malty taste. From what information I have managed to find it seems that these pilsners are only about 90% to 96% attenuated.

I am putting this into the 'too hard basket' for home brewing at my level. However, on my last lager brew, I kept back some unfermented, unhopped wort and added that to the keg at about 8%.

In conclusion: Yes it did add a pilsner type sweet malty taste to the finished beer similar to German beer. But not good enough. For one thing, the wort that was added was drawn off after only a couple of minutes on the boil which left a slightly 'raw' malty taste in the beer. I am going to have another go but boil down the wort in a separate vessel before storing cold and adding back at kegging time. The experiment was partly successfull and I think it's worth pursuing.

-=Steve=-


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## Florian (27/2/13)

Why not take your wort straight from the kettle at the end of boil?

That probably gives you an even more "unfermented" component, as you're also adding bitterness and hop flavour back at the same ratio.

Also, you don't need a separate vessel, brew to your usual volumes, ferment with slightly less volume, and end up (after adding the wort) with the same volume as usual in the keg.


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## Nick JD (27/2/13)

So they rely on filtering out _every last yeast cell_ to stop the bottles exploding? Or is it pasteurisation?

You'd think a bottle bomb or two would have happened if this is their method.


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## Damien13 (27/2/13)

damn-it.... so no-one knows????
wow.... this has to be the only question that I have ever seen unanswered!
Awesome.. no I take that back. It blows...


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## Bizier (27/2/13)

I seriously disagree with this hypothesis.

If you lager a beer before terminal gravity you will exacerbate "green" flavours including VDK and acetaldehyde.


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## Nick JD (27/2/13)

I'm currently working on the pH argument.

They didn't go to those lengths to get around the rhinazigeeerobot law with acidulated malt for nothing mefinks.

Started with 2% of the grist.

I still reckon it's got to do with fermenting and CCing in HUGE volumes.


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## labels (27/2/13)

Nick JD said:


> So they rely on filtering out _every last yeast cell_ to stop the bottles exploding? Or is it pasteurisation?
> 
> You'd think a bottle bomb or two would have happened if this is their method.


In my case with home kegged beer that's kept very cold from lagering through to consumption it's not a problem, it's just way too cold for the yeast to ferment.

Commercially, removing every single yeast cell is really not all that hard with diatamaceous earth filters - common in breweries - or of course pasteurisation as you suggested is used on nearly all packaged beer that does not require live yeast.


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## Damien13 (27/2/13)

The weird thing about this is I actually find that the graininess in massive doses (esp in the cheaper german beers) is a bit much, and makes the beer interesting but less drinkable. But the fact that I am not sure how it happens or how to control it bugs the crap out of me. The closest I came was a Dortmunder Export that I tapped off for a comp and forgot about for 3 months in the fridge. That had a SMIDGEN of the taste, but just not enough.
Stupid question, but has everyone actually tried lagering for ages to see. I could never be stuffed... or was never patient enough to ACTUALLY lager the way I should. like I said... I am sure it is a stupid question, and loads of people try it... I just don't know anyone who actually does.. just lots of dudes who talk about it.
Geez I am not even drunk and that was a ramble of a post. meh... whatever.


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## labels (27/2/13)

Bizier said:


> I seriously disagree with this hypothesis.
> 
> If you lager a beer before terminal gravity you will exacerbate "green" flavours including VDK and acetaldehyde.


Seroiusly disagree or not, go trawling through the internet in the rightbdirections and you'll find plenty of information about it, this is not a personal opinion thing.


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## Bizier (27/2/13)

I was not going to say it, but I was thinking along the lines of Nick JD's volume tangent. From memory I have not tasted a single lager on a small scale homebrewer or micro which really tastes like a CZ or German example.


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## DUANNE (28/2/13)

labels said:


> In my case with home kegged beer that's kept very cold from lagering through to consumption it's not a problem, it's just way too cold for the yeast to ferment.
> 
> Commercially, removing every single yeast cell is really not all that hard with diatamaceous earth filters - common in breweries - or of course pasteurisation as you suggested is used on nearly all packaged beer that does not require live yeast.


how cold are you keeping your beer. lager yeast is going to have no trouble fermenting at 4 degrees unfermented wort as added by german brewets is usef tocarbonate the beer because using sugar or external co2 is illegal under the rehiensgebot.


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## labels (28/2/13)

BEERHOG said:


> how cold are you keeping your beer. lager yeast is going to have no trouble fermenting at 4 degrees unfermented wort as added by german brewets is usef tocarbonate the beer because using sugar or external co2 is illegal under the rehiensgebot.


Keeping the beer at about 0°C. You're right about the purity law, they are allowed to capture and store CO2 and force carbonate with it later.

I'll see if I can find the articles on some of their techniques. They don't do what I did by adding unfermented wort back to finished beer, I did this to test the theory and the results were surprising, certainly closer than anything else I have tried including critical attention to pH control - not saying it is not important but it is not the key to it either.

What I understand they do is to start lagering before terminal gravity. The end result is a beer that is under attenuated. There is a lot I don't understand, you can't do a diacetyl rest for example so lager yeast choice is critical as some produce lots while others produce very little under the right conditions.

This experiment has certainly spurred me on to continue down this path and see how far it gets me. By the way I used 100% Australian malt - BB Galaxy and have got much closer to the German style than using Weyermann malts so I don't think it's a German malt thing but a German technique thing.

-=Steve=-


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## Nick JD (28/2/13)

My other suspicion is that they're using a proprietry spec (or even base) malt - the likes of which Weyermann cannot replicate.


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## Bribie G (28/2/13)

Another thing the big German breweries nearly all do nowadays is a stepped infusion mash with 40 mins at 62 degrees, 40 mins at 72 then a mashout. Maybe that gives it a different grain character than a single infusion mash.


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## Nick JD (28/2/13)

Doesn't work for me...

...hell, I'd mash while performing a Polka wearing Lederhosen if I could get that commercial malty goodness in my Pils.


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## labels (28/2/13)

Bribie G said:


> Another thing the big German breweries nearly all do nowadays is a stepped infusion mash with 40 mins at 62 degrees, 40 mins at 72 then a mashout. Maybe that gives it a different grain character than a single infusion mash.


I don't think it would play a part in achieving the flavour profile or if it does, it would be minor. The step infusion is probably a lot more to do with maximum extraction and maximum yield, pretty important in commercial brewing. As for a mash-out it's a moot point in home brewing, some swear by it while others like myself consider it a waste of time on such a small scale brewery.

Steve


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## Nick JD (3/3/13)

A thread Turman started about leaving grain in the boil by accident and it's affect on flavours got me thinking.

Could that "pilsner graininess" be gotten by something like a separate _boil_ (yes, settle down) of a small amount of say a darkish spec malt like a caramunich? A boil to deliberately extract the grainy/malty flavours in such a way that a long, delicate decoction boil can't achieve. I'm tempted to do a 500ml "decoction" of just caramunich 3 and acidulated malt and add it into a SMaSH pils for colour/flavour. What's the pH maximum required to not extract tannins? 5.5?

Would still pass the purity laws. Kinda like adding caramel - but a grainy, malt derived, intense additive. Could all of the colour in a grainy pilsner come from a completely separate, malt-derived additive? An mini uber-decoction, if you will?


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## eamonnfoley (3/3/13)

From what I can gather the following is important: Correct mash ph, correct finished beer ph, Reinheitsgebot (no yeast nutrient, no whirlfloc, acid malt only etc), decent water profile, Hochkurz mash although a single infusion is meant to be just as good (mash thin about 4kg:1L to mimic German brewers), recipe (Continental pils malt), correct fermentation temps. And the Germans employ techniques such as mash and boil acidification, to get the best pH during the mash (enzymes), and for the boil (hop additions, reduce harshness). These can be useful in your quest for the perfect pils. 

I have read an awful lot about German brewing & spoken to German brewmasters, and there is no secret ingredient. Just good processes and good brewing. Just need to employ them myself now


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## Aydos (3/3/13)

foles said:


> From what I can gather the following is important: Correct mash ph, correct finished beer ph, Reinheitsgebot (no yeast nutrient, no whirlfloc, acid malt only etc), decent water profile, Hochkurz mash although a single infusion is meant to be just as good (mash thin about 4kg:1L to mimic German brewers), recipe (Continental pils malt), correct fermentation temps. And the Germans employ techniques such as mash and boil acidification, to get the best pH during the mash (enzymes), and for the boil (hop additions, reduce harshness). These can be useful in your quest for the perfect pils.
> 
> I have read an awful lot about German brewing & spoken to German brewmasters, and there is no secret ingredient. Just good processes and good brewing. Just need to employ them myself now


That mash thickness can't be right. The grains would absorb more than 1L. I'm sure you mean the other way around 4L:1KG


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## Nick JD (3/3/13)

foles said:


> From what I can gather the following is important: Correct mash ph, correct finished beer ph, Reinheitsgebot (no yeast nutrient, no whirlfloc, acid malt only etc), decent water profile, Hochkurz mash although a single infusion is meant to be just as good (mash thin about 4kg:1L to mimic German brewers), recipe (Continental pils malt), correct fermentation temps. And the Germans employ techniques such as mash and boil acidification, to get the best pH during the mash (enzymes), and for the boil (hop additions, reduce harshness). These can be useful in your quest for the perfect pils.
> 
> I have read an awful lot about German brewing & spoken to German brewmasters, and there is no secret ingredient. Just good processes and good brewing. Just need to employ them myself now


From what I can gather, good processes and good brewing in the homebrew situation cannot replicate "that taste". But I'm happy to PM you my address so you can send me a bottle that does.


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## eamonnfoley (3/3/13)

aydos said:


> That mash thickness can't be right. The grains would absorb more than 1L. I'm sure you mean the other way around 4L:1KG


yeah typo - 4L:1kg


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## eamonnfoley (3/3/13)

Nick JD said:


> From what I can gather, good processes and good brewing in the homebrew situation cannot replicate "that taste". But I'm happy to PM you my address so you can send me a bottle that does.


I've tasted it in a homebrew setting - at least once in Perth. And several times overseas. I might clarifiy that the taste I'm talking about is the taste you'll get from a small brewer in Germany - which is far superior to the mass produced stuff. Certainly not claiming to be an expert brewer of german lagers, but I have enough good information, evidence and advice from reputable sources to realise there is no secret ingredient. Its just takes damn good technical brewing - thats why the Germans are still the masters IMO.

I'll send you that bottle when I finally get it right


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## Nick JD (3/3/13)

foles said:


> I'll send you that bottle when I finally get it right


I look forward to it. 

Can you give us a rundown on the parameters ze Germans are accurately controlling in de Breweries that give them this damn good technical edge, please? It's more helpful than suggesting it takes some kinda expertise that the brewers on this thread (some of them rather worthy brewers) don't have, and are too sloppy in their techniques to ever crack it.

That'd be great.


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## eamonnfoley (3/3/13)

Nick JD said:


> I look forward to it.
> 
> Can you give us a rundown on the parameters ze Germans are accurately controlling in de Breweries that give them this damn good technical edge, please? It's more helpful than suggesting it takes some kinda expertise that the brewers on this thread (some of them rather worthy brewers) don't have, and are too sloppy in their techniques to ever crack it.
> 
> That'd be great.


Not suggesting anything about anyone on the forum. Are you doing all of the following?
Brewing water: RO then salts to get. Ca 50, SO4 about 50, Cl about 50, HCO3 between 0-30, other ions low or zero (this is for german pils, not Czech). 
Weyermann pils malt as base. Hop schedule I'm sure your aware of (Hallertau or spalt or tett etc.)
Mash pH of 5.4 measured at room temp on your calibrated meter (25C). Alternatively pH=5.5 (at 25C) during mash, and adjust to 5.4 (at 25C) with lactic during boil. And by the way get a handheld meter if your a serious brewer.
64-65C single infusion mash (for German pils - dry) or equivalent Hochkurz schedule
Mash thickness about 4L:1kg
If your looking for commercial style pils - go the fly sparge (grainy), if you're looking for small brewery style - go the batch sparge (2/3 volume mash, 1/3 volume sparge is typical)
Aeration with pure oxygen about 10-12mg/L
Pitch at 6C (proper lager yeast count - huge starter or very healthy slurry from previous batch). Ferment about 8-9C
Diacetyl rest if required at end. 
dont use whirlfloc or yeast nutrient (probably not a big deal though)
Preferably use a spund valve to carbonate beer in fermenter (I use a keg to ferment), or transfer prior to FG and spund serving keg).
Closed transfers from fermenter to Co2 purged keg to prevent oxygen intake. 
Finished lager should have a pH of about 4.4 (I've measured good lagers such as Schlenkerla & Weihenstephan). Needs to be below 4.5 with the rare exception of high gravity beers (microbiological stability). This is a little higher than a typical ale because a lager fermentation doesnt drop pH as much as an ale ferment. 
Lager away, but fresh unfiltered pilsners are the best beers you can drink (IMO)


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## mje1980 (4/3/13)

So, you use all RO water, adjust it, then heat up for mash etc?

Do you take a sample of the mash, cool down, then check with the meter?

You adjust ph prior to boiling ?


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## eamonnfoley (4/3/13)

mje1980 said:


> So, you use all RO water, adjust it, then heat up for mash etc?
> 
> Do you take a sample of the mash, cool down, then check with the meter?
> 
> You adjust ph prior to boiling ?


I typically put all my salts in the mash, and sparge with RO water.
some acid in the boil is optional if you want a two stage pH adjustment (5.5 in mash and 5.4 in boil).
Yes, cool small sample down in fridge to room temp, then take pH measurement. If you read Strong's book he talks about pH at room temp being higher than mash temp values (by 0.3-0.4). The 5.2 to 5.4 range you hear is measured at mash temp (which would destroy our meters).


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## labels (4/3/13)

Mash pH is important but for the most part the mash will be in a tight range anyway, this occurs naturally if you use decent water. Sparging is where the pH tends to rise. I add a few drops of phosphoric acid to the sparge water that keeps the mash pH in check. Can you go overboard? No, not unless you're silly. If you bring your sparge water down to pH 3.00 for example, the buffering effect of the mash will stop it going out of range.

-=Steve=-


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## eamonnfoley (4/3/13)

labels said:


> Mash pH is important but for the most part the mash will be in a tight range anyway, this occurs naturally if you use decent water. Sparging is where the pH tends to rise. I add a few drops of phosphoric acid to the sparge water that keeps the mash pH in check. Can you go overboard? No, not unless you're silly. If you bring your sparge water down to pH 3.00 for example, the buffering effect of the mash will stop it going out of range.
> 
> -=Steve=-


Your right, but the OP is trying to nail the perfect pils - a delicate beer that needs huge attention to detail.


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## Florian (4/3/13)

foles said:


> Your right, but the OP is trying to nail the perfect pils - a delicate beer that needs huge attention to detail.


 :lol: :lol:

Foles, who's that OP you're talking about?


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## Nick JD (12/3/13)

It's pH.

Drinking this atm - and it's got _that _Pils taste. Bucket loads.

*House Pils 3* (German Pilsner (Pils))

Original Gravity (OG): 1.046 (°P): 11.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.012 (°P): 3.1
Alcohol (ABV): 4.52 %
Colour (SRM): 5.0 (EBC): 9.8
Bitterness (IBU): 28.3 (Average)

96.42% Weyermann Pilsner
1.93% Acidulated Malt
1.65% Carabohemian

0.5 g/L Hallertau Aroma (7.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.5 g/L T45 Saaz (8% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.4 g/L Hallertau Aroma (7.6% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
0.4 g/L T45 Saaz (8% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)

0.2 g/L Whirlfloc Tablet @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
0.2 g/L Yeast Nutrient @ 15 Minutes (Boil)

55C:10, 62C:30, 67C:30. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 12°C with Wyeast 2000 - Budvar Lager


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


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## Bada Bing Brewery (12/3/13)

Nick - what were your Ph readings ??? and how did you get them....
Cheers
BBB


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## dent (12/3/13)

Nick JD said:


> It's pH.


So... all your other pilseners have had incorrect pH prior to this?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/3/13)

dent said:


> So... all your other pilseners have had incorrect pH prior to this?


All other Pilsner except mine 
Nev


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## Nick JD (12/3/13)

What's the correct pH for a pilsner mash?


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## dent (12/3/13)

So far you're the only one who knows, it seems.


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## manticle (12/3/13)

What did you do before that didn't get 'that' taste?
What did you do this time differently?
Is it repeatable so someone else (possibly the OP) could have a crack and get a similar result?

Can you elaborate on 'it's pH'?


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## Nick JD (12/3/13)

Basically I've used acidulated malt (and super soft GC water) to bring my mash pH down by 0.2


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## dent (12/3/13)

Please forgive me if I get the impression it was not measured. It is nice you have brewed a beer you are happy with, but I don't think it is going to provide the key to this thread.


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## manticle (12/3/13)

What was you pH before/ How did you measure it this time/last time?
What was the mineral content of the water?

Not trying to be smart or even doubt that you may be getting that taste but this thread is about someone seeking it and a lot of other people are interested too.

How can they get that taste in their beer following on from your experience? Is it just acidulated in the right proportion? Could they achieve it with acid or salts?

What other info to get everyone close to the point you are? pH has been noted to play a likely factor (both mash and wort) so what more about 'it's pH' can you elaborate on to help everyone make better Deutsch pils with 'that taste'?


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## Nick JD (12/3/13)

Please look on ebay for the price of a digital pH meter.


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## Nick JD (12/3/13)

manticle said:


> What was you pH before/ How did you measure it this time/last time?
> What was the mineral content of the water?
> 
> Not trying to be smart or even doubt that you may be getting that taste but this thread is about someone seeking it and a lot of other people are interested too.
> ...


I'll do a thread.


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## Florian (12/3/13)

Have used 2% as well in my last few pilsners, combined with RO water. They're good, but i wouldn't say I've nailed 'that taste' yet. Not sure if acidulated is the way to go either, as I had some (I'd say better ones) before I started to use acidulated. I'll go back through my old recipes and processes and see if something stands out.


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## dent (12/3/13)

???

They're quite cheap.


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## manticle (12/3/13)

Nick JD said:


> I'll do a thread.



Why not just answer the fairly reasonable questions in this one?


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## Bizier (13/3/13)

You get it in with a funnel.


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## labels (13/3/13)

I do pH adjustments with phosphoric acid, in fact it's standard practice for me. I also meaure the mash pH which usually sits at 5.4. That doesn't give me the character I'm looking for.

However, Nick used acidulated malt and that might have a bearing on the flavour profile where phosphoric acid does not so I'm not convinced it's pH alone.

Then again, some other factor might have got him the character that has not been mentioned or overlooked. It does seem as though it is a technique issue rather than ingredients. The step mash for example, I just use a single step infusion at 65°C, Nick used three steps.

It would be interesting if Nick can reproduce this beer and nail it down to one specific thing.

-=Steve=-


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## Damien13 (13/3/13)

If it was a step mash surely a Braumeister owner would have chimed in by now???? I happen to be one, but haven't fermented any of the Pils I have cubed just yet...


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## Nick JD (13/3/13)

labels said:


> It would be interesting if Nick can reproduce this beer and nail it down to one specific thing.


I've brewed basically the same recipe lots and this is the first time it's showed up. It's also the first time I've used acidulated malt to bring the mash pH down 0.2


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## labels (13/3/13)

Nick JD said:


> I've brewed basically the same recipe lots and this is the first time it's showed up. It's also the first time I've used acidulated malt to bring the mash pH down 0.2


Interesting. I've already got 100L on the ferment ATM so I'm stuffed for five weeks but after that I reckon I will be duplicating your recipe exactly in my 3V brewery. I might ask for some more details first, particularly relating fermentation times/temps, diacetyl resting, lagering etc.

-=Steve=-


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## dent (14/3/13)

Here are some notes from a German commercial brewery from a presentation by Steve Holle - the PDF is worth a read.




> *Schoenramer Pils
> Brauerei Schoenram, Schoenram, Bavaria*
> • soft water, low alkalinity, chloride and sulfate ions enhances body and aroma respectively
> • very pale barley variety with a lot of enzyme activity (we use the variety Barke, the palest available)
> ...


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## labels (14/3/13)

Thanks for that input, sheds a lot of light on things

-=Steve=-


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## Nick JD (14/3/13)

Vigorous secondary fermentation at 3C?

This is the VOLUME thing that I reckon homebrewers can't emulate.


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## Renzo (15/3/13)

The 8% Krausen 2ndry ferment might also be a factor, although I'm not sure if any of the bigger breweries do that. Could be wrong though.


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