# Sydney Water Profile - Help With Conversion



## BOG (30/3/09)

I've been using a water profile (Beersmith) I've developed some time back from a Sydney Water Data Sheet.

This morning I decided to update the profile and found that either I had it very wrong previously of Sydney water has changed profile damatically.

Attached is the latest download of water analysis from the Sydney Water web site.

From the data I have been previously using Calcium and Magnesium have dropped by about 500%.

Question: 

Can you convert PPM to Mg/L ? Is it one to one. (I'm guessing it is)

Has anyone else noticed this dramatic change?


BOG 

View attachment TypicalWaterAnalysis_1_.pdf


----------



## Fourstar (30/3/09)

BOG said:


> I've been using a water profile (Beersmith) I've developed some time back from a Sydney Water Data Sheet.
> Question:
> 
> Can you convert PPM to Mg/L ? Is it one to one. (I'm guessing it is)
> ...



PPM is = mg/l 
1mg to a kilo is 1,000,000 mg = kilo 1l = 1kg. this 1mg is = ppm

I havnt noticed a dramatic change as i live in melbourne but the figures look ok, the only high-ish one being chloride which can be easily fixed by leaving it out overnight, a carbon filter or some sodium met. e verything else is relativly low. not pilsen levels but good enough to work around to meet any traditional water profile.


----------



## lagers44 (30/3/09)

Hey BOG

I'm pretty sure that ppm is the same as mg/L , and water compositions change with the seasons pretty much as rainfall varies, drought, dead animals in the catchment etc etc. I'm sure that's why the water boards puts out quarterly reports.

Lagers


----------



## BOG (30/3/09)

The resulting Beersmith water profile for Sydney Water.


BOG 

View attachment sydneywater.bsm


----------



## BOG (30/3/09)

I was concerned as my origional profile had 35mg/L for Mg when now it's 5mg/L , same for cloride. Maybe we got a bit more rain.

Can I assume the line entry in their report for Calcium Hardness is the Chalk content or Bicarbonate in Beersmith?


BOG


----------



## Fourstar (30/3/09)

BOG said:


> Can I assume the line entry in their report for Calcium Hardness is the Chalk content or Bicarbonate in Beersmith?



Calcium hardness is permanent hardness and not Bicarbonte, bicarbonate atributes to alkalinity and temporary hardness.

Taken from how to brew. http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

(Ca (ppm)/20 + Mg (ppm)/12.1) x 50 = Total Hardness as CaCO3

Edit: Just noticed Alkalinity Noted as CACO3 is Bicarbonate content. (I think)

Water Hardness, Alkalinity, and milliEquivalents
Hardness and Alkalinity of water are often expressed "as CaCO3". Hardness-as referring to the cation concentration, and alkalinity-as referring to the anions i.e. bicarbonate. If your local water analysis does not list the bicarbonate ion concentration (ppm), nor "Alkalinity as CaCO3", to give you an idea of the water's buffering power to the mash pH, then you will need to call the water department and ask to speak to one of the engineers. They will have that information.

So Alkalinity mg CaCO3 /L = Bicarbonate. (dont take it as gospel, maybe somone abit more knowledgeable will comment)


Cheers! :icon_cheers:


----------



## katzke (30/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> Calcium hardness is permanent hardness and not Bicarbonte, bicarbonate atributes to alkalinity and temporary hardness.
> 
> Taken from how to brew. http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html
> 
> ...



I have never used the water stuff in beersmith.

The report gives you everything you need. The calcium and magnezium hardness is confusing and I would ignore it.

What you need is the total hardness as CACO3 
The alkalinity as CACO3 
The pH 
Then 
Calcium 
Magnesium 
Chloride 
Sodium 
Sulfate 

And that is all.

One post said chloride can be removed by letting the water set out. They are confusing Chlorine, a gas, and Chloride, a salt. Salts can not be removed unless you use RO treatment or dilution.

Yes the water can change. It mostly happens to surface water after a rain. But it can happen with well water when usage changes and they start extra wells with different water makeup.


----------



## BOG (30/3/09)

Ok, Well Calcium and Alkalinity are about the same result in the analysis so the Beersmith profile posted still works.

I'll have to go back and remove the water profiles in my receipes and add them back so the new salt addition calculations happen.

Thanks for the help.


BOG


----------



## BOG (30/3/09)

Thanks Katzke,

I can confirm that the beersmith file is now correct for a Sydney Water Profile if you wanted to use it. 
not overly useful to you in Oregon but there none the less.


BOG


----------



## Fourstar (30/3/09)

katzke said:


> One post said chloride can be removed by letting the water set out. They are confusing Chlorine, a gas, and Chloride, a salt. Salts can not be removed unless you use RO treatment or dilution.



Sorry, my mistake. Abit of confusion there.


----------



## jonocarroll (30/3/09)

Some of this thread may be useful. Not so much the parts were I'm being a d**k because I got my facts wrong, but the rest. Contains data file for specific regions in and around Sydney.

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Damian44 (1/4/09)

Sorry for the nubie question guy, but is it worth while adding anything to the Sydney water for a lager? Or what about a Pilsner?
TYVM


----------



## lagers44 (4/4/09)

Hey Damian i wouldn't bother adding anything to the Sydney water for lagers of any type it's pretty soft water and i've never had any issues. Certain types of Ales may benefit from hardening the water but i never bother with that either.

The water here is damn good for brewing.


----------



## Bobby (4/4/09)

I agree with the above.

At any one time the water can vary considerably, depending on how the system is setup at the time. Rezoning is common place. A general idea of what can be expected from the water is all you should worry about - i would not try and split hairs...


----------



## Damian44 (4/4/09)

Thanks guys. Great news.


----------



## lagers44 (28/4/09)

To those from the Sydney area interested in their water profile , i was sent this from Sydney Water it'll give you a good idea on what your dealing with. 



http://www.sydneywater.com.au/Publications/Reports/TypicalWaterAnalysis.pdf#Page=1


Lagers


----------



## rosswill (28/4/09)

Fantastic. 
I always wanted to know, but was too lazy to seek it out.


----------



## Bizier (28/4/09)

Cheers guys, that is very helpful.

One Q. what is the best way to get rid of our typical 0.52 -1.42ppm Monochloramine?

I think I might have access to a dual undersink filter block, and was wondering if carbon filtration is the only way.


----------



## KillerRx4 (28/4/09)

Ive taken to using Potassium Metabisulfite in HLT to remove the chloramine.


----------



## Bizier (28/4/09)

OK. Awesome news, a filter here is really going to be a PITA. For some reason I had it in my head that met only removed 'free chlorine'.

I have searched and everyone is saying a 'pinch' of met... can anyone give me an idea of a pinch in either grams or 1/4 tsp per 23L?

Can someone give me a y/n as to whether attached Beersmith image is on track for sensible upper limit mineral additions based on converting Prospect to Burton water? Burton was chosen as most extreme example.


----------



## KillerRx4 (28/4/09)

For a 25lt batch I use around 40lt water. I treat 50lt with 1gm potassium metabisulfite.
Wheather this is the correct amount I cant say but I must have figured it out from somewhere when I started doing it & has been working for me since.


----------



## Fourstar (28/4/09)

Bizier said:


> Can someone give me a y/n as to whether attached Beersmith image is on track for sensible upper limit mineral additions based on converting Prospect to Burton water? Burton was chosen as most extreme example.



Yes, looks good!

Have a listen to the latest Brewstrong podcasts on water adjustments. Don't focus on replicating 'Burton water' focus more on what you want to get out of the water for your beer in question as the upper limits of 'Burton' are not always acceptible/required in some beers. e.g. a very veyr high sulfate content in a 'best bitter' with no chloride content will mute the malt character.

Also, you get allot of Mg out of your grain so as an addition, its not as important as HCO3, Ca and SO4 to 'burtonise' the water. it will help you keep your balance for hardness thou. Be aware of your RA (Residual Alkalinity) too with such high HCO3 content.

The only time i'd use Epsom salts now is if i dont need a high calcium content but require sulphates (which is rare for me).


Cheers!


----------



## Bizier (28/4/09)

Cheers a bunch Fourstar.

I will listen to the show. I am slowly trying to churn through the Sun Sessions... so it might be in some time.

I am not really interested in replicating Burton water regularly, I was just using it as an exaple of what I could do using the Beersmith tool, figuring to shoot for slight negative values.

But I have been thinking of a nice UK IPA at some stage and I know Whiteshield comes from Burton upon Trent, and it is exactly the mineral/hop profile I am after if I am brewing it.


----------



## Fourstar (28/4/09)

Bizier said:


> Cheers a bunch Fourstar.
> But I have been thinking of a nice UK IPA at some stage and I know Whiteshield comes from Burton upon Trent, and it is exactly the mineral/hop profile I am after if I am brewing it.




Personally, don't take the SO4 above 350-400ppm. That's plenty, even for beers above 60 IBU. Just watch out for RA when burtonising. Try and keep your Ca+Mg additons balanced with your HCO3 additions or else your mash Ph will be out and RA will be incorrect.


----------



## jonw (28/4/09)

KillerRx4 said:


> For a 25lt batch I use around 40lt water. I treat 50lt with 1gm potassium metabisulfite.



I use a quarter camden tablet (sodium met) and leave my brewing water to stand overnight, thus letting chlorine work it s way out, and letting the sodium met tackle the chloramine. That's when I can be bothered - not sure I've noticed any difference.

Can anybody give me a rough idea of how many mg of e.g. Gypsum there are in a level teaspoon? I use Beer Alchemy, and it'll tell me how many mg/L to add, but I don't have scales that sensitive.

Cheers,

Jon


----------

