# Hoch Kurtz Mash - Anyone Had Success?



## Bribie G (20/9/10)

I recently got pointed to a great site "Braukaiser" who states that the Hochkurtz (german High Short) infusion mash is now the preferred mash regime for german breweries, as they can use the modern malts without decoction and crank out a batch every two hours, whilst still getting a fuller bodied beer as opposed to an isothermal UK style infusion mash. There is still a decoction version but apparently the infusion version is the nutz von der duckz nowadays.





The site goes into it in detail (scroll down the page) but to summarise:

With our commonly used isothermal infusion mash we dough in and hold the mash at say 66.5 degrees for an hour or more, giving a 'sweet spot' for the Alpha and Beta Amylase to do their work.

With the Hochkurtz the idea is:

No need for a protein rest nowadays but three rests:

The maltose rest at around 63 degrees for half an hour
Raise to 70 degrees and do the dextrin rest for half an hour to complete starch conversion
Raise to 75 degrees for 20 mins for mashout

Raise the bag B) 

I'm still a bit confused about the temperature going up and up and up, I thought that the idea was that the Alpha Amylase had to work first, then the Beta to chop the carb chains into shorter fermentable lengths to produce fermentables and at first glance the Hochkurtz seems to have it arse about - but Becks and Oettinger can't be wrong hey :icon_cheers: 
Anyone do this? I have a shitload of pils and munich to get through as I'll be renewing all my malt stocks next week and I'm going to go for a Dunkel and see what happens.

:icon_drunk:


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## Florian (20/9/10)

Hey Bribie,

I have used this method three times recently, after stumbling over the same site. A north german pils and a Dortmunder have just gone into lagering for at least another 4 weeks, and the third one, an aussie lager, is still cubed and yet to be fermented, so I have no results yet. I have however played with the times a bit, and at least in one of them extended the 63 degree rest to one hour. I have also added a protein rest between 52 and 55.
Zwickel also uses a very similar shedule for his pilseners.

Florian


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## razz (20/9/10)

Good morning BribieG. I did a similar mas schedule last week for a Steam Ale. I got the schedule from Zwickel's blog, where he recommended a 35 degrees dough in followed by rests at 55, 63,72 and finally mashout at 76. I loosely followed this but doughed in at 55 not 35. Anyway, a couple of things happened that were different. When the mash got to 72 degrees it "loosened up" and began to float. Prior to this the mash was getting a little firm and I thought I would need to back off the flow through the herms. Secondly, I got another 4-5 percentage points on the preboil gravity. I can't tell you much more than that, I'm waiting to get home on Wednesday and pitch the dry hops. I won't be drinking the beer for at least a week.


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## Bribie G (20/9/10)

Yes that 'loosening' is exactly what you get when you do a 'cereal mash' at 70 degrees. You cook up the rice or polenta to a stiff mush, add some dry base malt and start stirring and WHAM it goes to soup almost instantly. Those Alpha Amylase guys are awesome !

Firing up the urn now.


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## dent (20/9/10)

This is pretty much the 'standard mash' I have configured on my herms - you can alter the fermentability by changing the ratio of time spent in beta/alpha amylase rest temperatures. Typical regime is 55 for 15, 63 for 45, 68 for 15, 77 for 20. Pretty happy with the malt profile from this, especially for lagers.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (20/9/10)

I honestly cant see the reason to hold the mash out for so long, all the enzymes should be denatured within 10 mins.
GB


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## Fourstar (20/9/10)

when i eventually get my new brewery setup, this will be the mash (or style of mash) i'll typically employ in most instances. Also, starting in the high protein rest range around 55 with a slow raise to low 60's will also get some limit dextrinase activity to break down the 1-6 links (branch points) when trying to achieve a 'drier' wort.


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## drsmurto (20/9/10)

I have done this in the past for a Kolsch after reading the classic style book and IIRC it is mentioned in Noonans 'New Brewing Lager Beer'.

I still did a protein rest and as mentioned its a schedule zwickel advocates for pilsners. 

50-52ish, 63, 70, 76-78. I normally do 20 mins at 50, 45 mins at 63, 30 mins at 70 and then 10 mins at mashout. Used boiling water for the infusions, mashed in at 50C very thick.

I use a similar schedule for decocting dunkels and pilsners.


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## Bribie G (20/9/10)

Pleased to hear I'm not heading out into the wilderness here :lol:
It's going great with BIAB in the urn, hit 63 spot on (haven't done a fifties rest today) and after 30 mins had only lost a quarter of a degree, then hoisted the bag just clear of the element and raised up to just under 70 with one power-on then a bit more of a surge and it's on 71 lagged up again. I always raise to mashout that way so I already have a fairly precise feel for how long to raise per degree. It's also a good opportunity to give the mash a good pumping at each stage which can only be good for conversion and efficiency.


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## Bribie G (20/9/10)

FWIW as you can see it's using up bits n bobs I've had in my bins but already tasting like malt heaven :icon_cheers: 


4.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 65.47 % 
1.00 kg Munich Malt - 20L (39.4 EBC) Grain 16.37 % 
0.50 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 8.18 % 
0.30 kg Crystal Malt Dark (240.0 EBC) Grain 4.91 % 
0.25 kg Caramel Wheat Malt (90.6 EBC) Grain 4.09 % 
0.06 kg Carafa II (811.6 EBC) Grain 0.98 % 
20.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 16.6 IBU 
20.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50 %] (20 min) Hops 10.0 IBU 
8.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (20 min) Hops 2.1 IBU 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.060 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.84 % 
Bitterness: 28.7 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l 
Est Color: 34.5 EBC


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## argon (20/9/10)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I honestly cant see the reason to hold the mash out for so long, all the enzymes should be denatured within 10 mins.
> GB



Are there any detrimental effects to holding the mashout longer than 10-20 minutes then?

I only ask 'cause the weekend Kolsch got away from me and left the mashout for 30 mins


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## Zwickel (20/9/10)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I honestly cant see the reason to hold the mash out for so long, all the enzymes should be denatured within 10 mins.
> GB


Thats what I say too, 5 to 10 minute is enough. Any longer mash out extracts more tannins only.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Wolfy (20/9/10)

BribieG said:


> the Hochkurtz (german High Short) infusion mash is now the preferred mash regime for german breweries


Is this anything more than just a fancy name for a step mash?
The most recent I did was the Klsch I just bottled (50, 61, 70, continuous sparge @80), would be much easier to do in a BIAB than my esky-mash tun I'm sure.


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## ~MikE (20/9/10)

Zwickel said:


> Thats what I say too, 5 to 10 minute is enough. Any longer mash out extracts more tannins only.
> 
> Cheers :icon_cheers:



you'd only worry about tannins when sparging though, there wouldn't be any harm holding the mash at mashout temp for longer than 10mins.


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## Zwickel (20/9/10)

> the Hochkurtz (german High Short) infusion mash is now the preferred mash regime for german breweries



this method is standard in Germany since more than 100 years :icon_cheers:


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## dent (20/9/10)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I honestly cant see the reason to hold the mash out for so long, all the enzymes should be denatured within 10 mins.
> GB



Those with deluxe mash stirrer systems can get away with less time  

20 minutes probably is generous though.


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## Bribie G (20/9/10)

Zwickel said:


> this method is standard in Germany since more than 100 years :icon_cheers:



*Now* you tell us, and there I was thinking that if it wasn't a decoction mash then it didn't deserve to be called German :lol: About to order myself a shedload of Hallertau and Munich :icon_drunk:


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## fraser_john (21/9/10)

I have done this several times for lagers and pilsners after reading this site some time last year. My final gravity has not come dow to where it should have though and may have to extend the first rest by about 15 minutes. Other than that, it is an easy mash regime and works well.

John


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## Howlingdog (23/9/10)

Back in the nineties when BABBs used to get their bulk grain from Joe White Maltings at Redbank (before Whites refused to sell to us anymore), this was the mash schedule they recommended for their malt that they supplied to Castelmaine, Milton. So as Zwickel says not a new idea.

HD


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## MHB (23/9/10)

BribieG said:


> I recently got pointed to a great site "Braukaiser" who states that the Hochkurtz (german High Short) infusion mash is now the preferred mash regime for german breweries, as they can use the modern malts without decoction and crank out a batch every two hours, whilst still getting a fuller bodied beer as opposed to an isothermal UK style infusion mash. There is still a decoction version but apparently the infusion version is the nutz von der duckz nowadays.
> 
> View attachment 40916
> 
> ...



The common "English" language name for the process is "Programmed Infusion" and as some people have said its really the industry standard.
I do all my mashing this way (one of the reasons I brought myself a Braumeister), Not always that exact programme but variations on the theme.
One of my personal favourites is Pilsner Urquell, the mash program goes like this: -
20 min @ 500C Mash in
20 min @ 600C
30 min @ 650C
20 min @ 700C
10 min @ 780C Mash out/Run off

For a BIAB brewer you probably can get 2 possibly 3 steps (depending on the size of your pot and how big the steps are) by mashing in at say 3:1 then making additions of boiling water and the calculations are pretty straight forward.
If you are set up to apply heat to the pot while the bag is in there then you can do whatever you like.

MHB


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## stl (23/9/10)

MHB said:


> The common "English" language name for the process is "Programmed Infusion" and as some people have said its really the industry standard.
> I do all my mashing this way (one of the reasons I brought myself a Braumeister), Not always that exact programme but variations on the theme.
> One of my personal favourites is Pilsner Urquell, the mash program goes like this: -
> 20 min @ 500C Mash in
> ...



This isn't Hochkurz, which the OP is asking about -- the _Hoch_ refers to the high mash-in temperature, i.e. skipping the traditional protein rest and going straight to the α-amylase rest which is followed by a separate β-amylase rest. The time at each rest is used to control the fermentability rather than picking a temperature in-between to balance the enzyme activity. The total mash time is also shorter, hence the _kurz_.

Steven.


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## Zwickel (25/9/10)

stl said:


> This isn't Hochkurz, which the OP is asking about -- the _Hoch_ refers to the high mash-in temperature, i.e. skipping the traditional protein rest and going straight to the α-amylase rest which is followed by a separate β-amylase rest. The time at each rest is used to control the fermentability rather than picking a temperature in-between to balance the enzyme activity. The total mash time is also shorter, hence the _kurz_.
> 
> Steven.



Thats right. What we have talked about is the standard mash regime.

Hoch-Kurz is a method to shorten the time by doing 2 rests only:

Hoch-Kurz-Verfahren:

Temperaturrest 62 C for 30 min
Temperaturrast 70 C for 30 min


thats all.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Fourstar (25/9/10)

stl said:


> This isn't Hochkurz, which the OP is asking about -- the _Hoch_ refers to the high mash-in temperature, i.e. *skipping the traditional protein rest and going straight to the α-amylase rest which is followed by a separate β-amylase rest. *



except this is the other way around, b-amylase first, a-amylase second.


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## Bribie G (25/9/10)

A lady friend of mine used to cut the 4 corners off her piece of corned beef (Zwickel, sort of an Aussie version of Sauerbraten) before putting in the pan with the bay leaves etc etc for simmering. I asked her why she did that and she said "that's the way my Mum always used to do it". Later she said, somewhat shocked by a childhood memory as we often can be when we suddenly remember something significant we have buried for years - 

"My God, I remember now, Mum only had one boiling pan and it was a bit too small, so she had to cut the corners off the meat to make it fit, that means I don't need to do that anymore"  

With modern lower protein malts - even trad Weyermann products etc, isn't doing a protein rest nowadays a bit like cutting the corners off the corned beef?


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## RdeVjun (25/9/10)

Good point Bribie, actually that cracked me up!  
Probably speaking out my *rse a bit here, but I guess in days gone by there was not much known about the actual science, but the processes worked with the materials of the day while I suppose brewers worked much of it out by centuries of trial and error, the odd innovator and perhaps some serendipity. Processes may have seemed almost magical and were followed by rote, without much understanding of why particular parts of it were important and in which circumstances they could be changed. Nowadays we have much more insight into the chemistry and also different, perhaps more reliable, raw materials so some things may indeed be redundant.
Obviously, without the enquiring minds, better understanding of the science and also being prepared to challenge traditional thinking, we'll for ever be cutting the corners off corned beef or doing perhaps unnecessary rests. I guess also that things like the BIAB revolution :blink: would never have eventuated without all of that either, we also see much resistance to innovation today and while I've enormous respect for traditional craft, I feel there's a happy medium in there somewhere which acknowledges and retains tradition but recognises the modern world we live in- being involved as we are in a craft with strong traditional links confirms that for me. ( :blink: Oh sheet, think I got a bit carried away there philosophically- sorry about that... definitely speaking out my *rse then! :huh: )

Just on the protein rest though, I'm willing to keep it to facilitate a single decoction in my low/no- specialty malt lagers, certainly not in ales though. A mashout decoction just isn't quite the same IMO, not the same effect at all and quite muted. The rest doesn't seem to have any negative effects with the lagers, using floor- malted Weyermann malt though (Bohemian Pilsner).


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## Zwickel (25/9/10)

BribieG said:


> With modern lower protein malts - even trad Weyermann products etc, isn't doing a protein rest nowadays a bit like cutting the corners off the corned beef?


BribieG, that theme is discussed very often, also here in German brewing boards.
I dont want to get deeper into the theory, only I can say from my own experience, there is a significant difference in beers brewed with or without protein rests.
Its not only cutted corners of the beef 

For myself Ive decided to brew all my Pilseners (not wheat beers) by doing a protein rest.
from my own observations:
the foam is finer and creamier, the head stands longer, the beer is clearing itself earlier, means less trub, the taste is rounder/mellower and not at last I get a higher OG, means more yield.

So far, Im doing my 162th. brew today, of course including a protein rest. Prost :icon_cheers:


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## Thirsty Boy (30/9/10)

I'm with zwickel on that one - I always do a protein rest @ 55-56 (higher than normal I know) and find it has significant effect on the foam quality of the beer. Short though... none of your 20 minutes. Mash in @ 55 and its on its way up to first conversion rest within 5mins or so - also concur with a bit of increase in extraction.

I fairly frequently do different variations of programmed step mashes, usually somewhere pretty near to the Hoch-Kurz regime, but I'm mostly up a degree or perhaps two in temp because starting at 55 gives me extra time in the lower range to begin with.

Is it necessary... probably not. But I spent all this damn time and money making a system that can do this sort of stuff easily - buggered if I'm not going to use it.

Remember - its the time at the lower rest temp that controls your fermentability. Time at the upper rest and at mashout is much less critical to the final result


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## jbirbeck (30/9/10)

Zwickel said:


> BribieG, that theme is discussed very often, also here in German brewing boards.
> I dont want to get deeper into the theory, only I can say from my own experience, there is a significant difference in beers brewed with or without protein rests.
> Its not only cutted corners of the beef
> 
> ...






Thirsty Boy said:


> I'm with zwickel on that one - I always do a protein rest @ 55-56 (higher than normal I know) and find it has significant effect on the foam quality of the beer. Short though... none of your 20 minutes. Mash in @ 55 and its on its way up to first conversion rest within 5mins or so - also concur with a bit of increase in extraction.
> 
> I fairly frequently do different variations of programmed step mashes, usually somewhere pretty near to the Hoch-Kurz regime, but I'm mostly up a degree or perhaps two in temp because starting at 55 gives me extra time in the lower range to begin with.
> 
> ...



+1...I'm with these guys. Protein rest is a yes for me for a few reasons...I get better head, the beer clears up better, no chill haze and well because I can  

Hoch Kurtz with a short protein rest.


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## manticle (30/9/10)

I've just started playing with protein rests and step mashing, including two steps in the sacch range. Have noticed good fluffy heads in the glass and a more creamy, thicker looking lacing. There's also a difference in the wort when it's produced (clearer) and a slightly better extraction efficiency.

I know the hoch kurz omits protein resting but it's somehow become relevant to this thread.


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## Bribie G (30/9/10)

I was under the impression that protein rests with modern malts tended to adversely affect head, or does it work the other way round? I thought that proteins were the main heading agents? I lost my copy of "brewing practices" when my old computer died othewise I'd look up "foaming" :lol:


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## manticle (30/9/10)

I had heard that too but my experience (limited) differs.


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## RdeVjun (30/9/10)

Is it worth distinguishing between Ale and Pils malts? For a while I did some 100% base malt ales for an experiment and protein rested as part of a decoction regime to boost the malt profile, in the end I gave it away and one reason was that they had quite poor head retention almost universally. I also do a 95% Pils/ 5% Carapils Lager with a protein rest and usually a single decoction none of which have had any such trouble at all, however there is the fly in the ointment of the spec malt.

My 2c, hope it is helpful... :unsure:


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## manticle (30/9/10)

I've only done it with non british stlyes so far and all have used pils malt so you could be right.


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## RobB (30/9/10)

BribieG said:


> I'm still a bit confused about the temperature going up and up and up, I thought that the idea was that the Alpha Amylase had to work first, then the Beta to chop the carb chains into shorter fermentable lengths to produce fermentables and at first glance the Hochkurtz seems to have it arse about .......



A very late response to the original post:

I used to think the same thing - that the alpha had to work first, followed by the beta - which of course doesn't fit the logic of passing through beta temps first. If I'm reading "Radical Brewing" correctly, beta doesn't need alpha, they just work differently:

"Alpha amylase works by chopping up starch molecules willy nilly, resulting in fragments of randomly varying size. Beta amylase is a fastidious nibbler, working from the end of the starch molecules and biting off one maltose sugar with every nip." - R.Mosher

Now that I understand that, I have a new source of confusion. I keep hearing that the bulk of conversion is complete within twenty minutes. I don't know if this is true or just a brewers' myth, but I have read it on a few boards. If it is true, once you've spent 20-30 minutes at beta temps, what is there left for the alpha to do at the next rest?


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## felten (1/10/10)

For the protein rest it depends what temp you are aiming for, like it says on the op's link


> Rest temperatures closer to 122 *F (50 *F) emphasize the generation of short length proteins (amino acids) and temperatures closer to 133 *F (55 *C) result in more medium chained proteins (good for head retention and body). Well modified modern malts, which already have higher levels of amino acids, may benefit from a protein rest closer to 133*F (55 *C) or don't require a protein rest at all.



And the majority of conversion may be done in the first 10-20m but it still isn't 100% converted, leaving it longer ensures the enzymes convert as much as possible, and ramping up the temp is one way to speed the enzymes up (as well as denaturing beta and moving to alpha's optimum temp).

Thats my understanding of it anyway.


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## Wolfy (1/10/10)

Malty Cultural said:


> ....
> I keep hearing that the bulk of conversion is complete within twenty minutes. I don't know if this is true or just a brewers' myth, but I have read it on a few boards. If it is true, once you've spent 20-30 minutes at beta temps, what is there left for the alpha to do at the next rest?


While enzyme activity is highest in the first 20 mins, the '_20 min conversion_' usually refers to a successful iodine test which 'only' tests to see if the starches have been degraded, and does test/tell what sugars have been released or the fermentability of the wort.

Beta-amylase (_works best at 55C-65C_) only 'works' on the ends of the amylose molecule, and is unable to 'work' close to the branch points, leaving a 'beta-amylase limit dextrin'.
Alpha-amylase (_works best at 60C-70C_) can 'chop up' the larger amylopectins at 'random' points - even close to the branch points.

At the first step (61C-63C) both alpha and beta are working together, alpha chopping randomly and then beta chewing off all the 'ends' (the longer you leave it the more fermentable the wort is). Above 65C beta is denatured (by a large portion) so that leaves the alpha to 'chop up' the remaining larger molecules, completing the conversion.
_
(That's my interpretation of J.Palmer's tree-branch-chopping analogy as applied to a step mash.)_


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## Zwickel (1/10/10)

Hi ho brewers,

one of the best sources for brewing knowledge is John Palmers Bible "How to brew".

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-1.html

The graph on this site shows very nicely the temp range where the enzymes are working best.


Cheers mates :icon_cheers:


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## neonmeate (1/10/10)

you can go even hoch-er and kurz-er as detailed here: skip the 63 min rest, just do 20 mins at 67-70C, no mashout, that's it.

http://www.draymans.com/articles/arts/14.html

this does depend on the type of malt apparently, you need stuff that will withstand that temp.

there's some interesting stuff there about dextrins being untasteable and not responsible for body the way we think they are.


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