# Brew Techniques For Quality And Economy (like Yeast Cake Reuse, Toucan



## buckerooni (23/5/12)

Hi All,

Having roped 3 of my mates into brewing (and splitting the costs of the gear) I'd like to get them to believe in the mantra 'home brew is cheap and delicious' to keep them motivated, i.e. keep helping me out. As I was the instigator of the idea but the setup is at a friends house (who has the room for it) I need to make this an attractive proposition! I thinking good results, simplicity and brewing length are all critical to keeping them motivated.

The reusing yeast cake concept was a great eye opener for me, so here are the things I've got that appear to produce good results, economical cost & time wise:

- toucan recipes - simple and easy producing good tasting beer
- yeast cake reuse - of the non-rinsing variety
- brew again straight after bottling - makes sense with the yeast reuse, also get 2 things done in the 1 night
- syringe tallie priming - simple, easy, fast and cheap

The toucan and the syrine also appeal as they're easy to get from the local supermarket/Big W too.

Anything else that should be added to the list?

Thanks for any suggestions.


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## Cube (23/5/12)

Keep your syringe for party time and go bulk prime. Since you have diverted all to your mates house might as well get a bunnings cube and use that to rack on top of the bulk prime. I resisted for ages to not bulk prime but it is much easier and quicker.

Before reusing a yeast cake pour half out the tap into a sterile swing top for next brews. So -- 4 brews out of 1 cake minimum.


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## michael_aussie (24/5/12)

I agree .. bulk priming is better that individual priming.

I'd also suggest if there are lots of you all drinking together .. that you bottle at least a portion of the batch into larger softdrink PET bottles.

I started with grolsh bottles (just short of 500ml).
I then tried PET soft-drink bottles.. and slowly migrated to them more and more.
For example 2 litre bottles = 1/4 the number of bottles to clean, fill, move, as 500ml bottles ...

If you drink 1/2 in a session .. and half within a day .. even drinking by yourself 2l will be fine.


.. then next step for me was kegging ... one huge bottle!!


TIP - buy some jugs .. gently pour the bottles into jugs .. much easier to ensure you don't disturb the bottle settlement.


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## michael_aussie (24/5/12)

REUSING YEAST CAKE AND REUSING A FERMENTER WITHOUT CLEANING
If you are going to do this your cleaning/sanitising/handling needs to be spot on.

If you do this to save time .. and end up with shit beer .. you've wasted your $$$ and the (reduced) time you did spend making your beer.


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## michael_aussie (24/5/12)

michael_aussie said:


> REUSING YEAST CAKE AND REUSING A FERMENTER WITHOUT CLEANING
> If you are going to do this your cleaning/sanitising/handling needs to be spot on.
> 
> If you do this to save time .. and end up with shit beer .. you've wasted your $$$ and the (reduced) time you did spend making your beer.




If you are really lazy (like I am) ... and don't mind spending a few more $$$$ .....

full wort kits give really good beer (better than K&K) .. and from what I've read ... better (EDIT - read = more reliable for beginners) than All Grain (if you don't nail All Grain) ... and even easier than K&K.

All you do is add the make up water to the fermenter (usually between NIL and 18 litres), tip the full work kit in and add yeast. .. piece of piss.

All of the above sponsers sell really nice kits.

50c/litre for excellent beer.
A no-brainer in my books if you can find a kit you like.


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## Yob (24/5/12)

Using a full yeast cake is a massive over pitch, while there is currently a bit of debate about it, understanding what your pitching rate is, well, its a good habit to form, and not at all difficult.


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## yum beer (24/5/12)

michael_aussie said:


> 50c/litre for excellent beer.
> A no-brainer in my books if you can find a kit you like.




Where the hell are you getting FWK's for 50 cents a litre...
any I have seen run from $40 and up.....$2+ a litre by my calculations.


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## fergi (24/5/12)

iamozziyob said:


> Using a full yeast cake is a massive over pitch, while there is currently a bit of debate about it, understanding what your pitching rate is, well, its a good habit to form, and not at all difficult.




as above ,pitching onto the full yeast cake is way over the top,
i empty the beer into whatever ,keg/bottles then the inch or so left in the bottom is swirled all around.
i then take one cup of the trub and use that to fire up the next batch. fermentation starts usually in a couple of hours if not sooner.

you can take another cupful.sterilized cup, and keep it in the fridge for a couple of weeks with sealed lid for another batch.

fergi


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## doon (24/5/12)

Split between 4 mates = 50c a litre


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## seemax (24/5/12)

I like your maths...

Do you regurgitate 3 times over... poor fellow at the end of the line :unsure: 

It's still $2/L if you drink it all yourself or split it 4 ways !!


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## yum beer (24/5/12)

seemax said:


> I like your maths...
> 
> Do you regurgitate 3 times over... poor fellow at the end of the line :unsure:
> 
> It's still $2/L if you drink it all yourself or split it 4 ways !!




+1 and no way near as insulting as what I would have said


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## petesbrew (24/5/12)

seemax said:


> It's still $2/L if you drink it all yourself or split it 4 ways !!


Not if you manage to convince your mates that it's infected, and volunteer to "dispose" of it. 

edit: I think we've found the perfect candidate to run the first AHB bulk buy for ULP.


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## Anofre (24/5/12)

-Brew double batches. It's minimal extra work for double the output.
-Switch to AG & buy grain in bulk. Much cheaper.
-Switch to kegs. The time you save bottling (and cleaning bottles) put towards brewing AG.
-Be careful with yeast propagation. After a big battle with aceto & wild yeast this year I now only ever re pitch for 2 beers in a row and only if the taste is pristine. Losing a whole double batch is not worth $5 saved.


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## buckerooni (24/5/12)

Anofre said:


> -Brew double batches. It's minimal extra work for double the output.
> -Switch to AG & buy grain in bulk. Much cheaper.
> -Switch to kegs. The time you save bottling (and cleaning bottles) put towards brewing AG.
> -Be careful with yeast propagation. After a big battle with aceto & wild yeast this year I now only ever re pitch for 2 beers in a row and only if the taste is pristine. Losing a whole double batch is not worth $5 saved.



Thanks Yum beer - some good points in there.

Double batch - good call - 2 fermenters, 1 racking cube should do the job. For around $60 we double our beer output while not doubling our time!

Switching to AG ingredients-wise is alot cheaper but its the additional equipment, time and care required that may be hard to sell to the troops. Hopefully part of Phase II once I've get them committed

Kegs - yep, I think the PET bottles will be good for now but as we are splitting brews we'd have to increase our batch sizes to accomodate (19L x 4). Probably another Phase II thing, they'll get it after the 3-4th bottle wash 

Point taken on the yeast, will not be pushing past 3 brews, split between 2 fermentors in parallel means it'll be used up faster

All comments appreciated fellas.


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## RobboMC (24/5/12)

I've gone to brewing close to 60 longnecks in a batch.

Typical recipe looks like this:
English Dark Ale
volume 25 litres

1 can Dark Ale
1 can Yorkshire or English Bitter
1 can Light Liquid Malt
1 kg Brew Enhancer 2
1 kg Light Dry Malt
500g Brown Sugar or dextrose ( or more BE2 of you choose )
50g to 100g Hops of choice Fuggles/Goldings/Saaz etc
Yeast of choice ( both sachets of kit yeast if using that )

Once fermentation finishes add 12 litres boiled and cooled water to bottling bucket
with proper amount of dissolved priming sugar ( around 200 g ) and rack in half of finished brew, stir gently and bottle.

Repeat with second half of brew.

Result is around 49 litres or 65 longnecks of excellent beer at around 4.4% abv.

This is volume brewing without a big load of gear, and results in very high stocks;
and is a great tactic for weddings, 21st's etc;
trouble is I can never resist popping a few longnecks of the full strength into bottles
for later sampling by the brewers I know.

If you go down this route make sure you have enough bottles.


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## buckerooni (24/5/12)

I like that idea alot RobboMC, hadn't considered a double batch from the 1 fermenter but this is also good thinking.


Also should have been clearer with the yeast cake - was going to portion it off like the cup idea.


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## Nick JD (24/5/12)

This might sound counterintuitive, but I find a cheap BIAB all-grain setup and kegging has the highest beer quality to cost to effort ratio (if ratios can be in triplets).

If you bulk-buy grain and hops and reuse yeast you can make Aussie Lagers (essentially what most of the K&Ks are) for well under 50c per liter.

But it tastes as good or better than what's at the Bottlo. 

And when you realise that for $1.50 per liter you can make Chimay Red ... well, that's just the icing on the cake.

I fully understand that people are time-limited, but if it's with a bunch of mates as Sunday brew day is anything but a "chore".


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## Spork (24/5/12)

+1 for what Nick JD said.
Do you have temperature control? Essential for good results, and 'fridges are cheap.
Ditch the fermenter and use jerrycans. I can fit 3 (with a bit of a squeeze) into my 'fridge.


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## buckerooni (24/5/12)

Spork said:


> +1 for what Nick JD said.
> Do you have temperature control? Essential for good results, and 'fridges are cheap.
> Ditch the fermenter and use jerrycans. I can fit 3 (with a bit of a squeeze) into my 'fridge.



Yep - got a temp controlled fridge (via ebay/hongkong) and starting to see the benefits of cubes in terms of size! 

I've only got 1 fermentor at the moment, but also have 2 x 20L jerrys classed as petrol carriers that have never been used (were going to be for my dirtbike). Unsure if they are 'food grade' or not, very hesitant just in case they give the beer a weird flavour - anyone had experience with this?

and *Nick JD* - I hear that too, I think the BIAB/keg achievable in the long run. Unfortunately for me I don't have the space at home for another fridge for the keg, but the BIAB route (once these guys a bit more educated) could be a goer. There's plenty of 'ah, she'll be right' going on at the moment with the 2 brews we've done which scares me. Perhaps handing them all copies of 'How to Brew' was a bit overwhelming...

it's great having these ideas fellas, it's all about progress and a vision for the future!


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## Kevman (24/5/12)

Nick JD said:


> This might sound counterintuitive, but I find a cheap BIAB all-grain setup and kegging has the highest beer quality to cost to effort ratio (if ratios can be in triplets).
> 
> If you bulk-buy grain and hops and reuse yeast you can make Aussie Lagers (essentially what most of the K&Ks are) for well under 50c per liter.
> 
> ...


F#$k me

Nick - if you don't like kit brewing don't read this section of the forum. Every time there is a discussion about kit brewing you have to post about BIAB and how you think its the ducks nuts. If people want to know about BIAB maybe they can wander over to the Common Ground, All Grain sections or Beginners/Partials.

Is it too much to ask for one section to be devoted to kit brewing. 

What was probably going to be a useful thread for kit brewers has now been hijacked.


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## Nick JD (24/5/12)

Kevman said:


> Is it too much to ask for one section to be devoted to kit brewing.



Yes.


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## Anofre (24/5/12)

'Consider all grain' is a reasonable statement to a kit brewer wanting to enhance quality.
I wish someone had have told me that 10 years earlier...


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## cam89brewer (24/5/12)

Kevman said:


> F#$k me
> 
> Nick - if you don't like kit brewing don't read this section of the forum. Every time there is a discussion about kit brewing you have to post about BIAB and how you think its the ducks nuts. If people want to know about BIAB maybe they can wander over to the Common Ground, All Grain sections or Beginners/Partials.
> 
> ...




It was only a suggestion. Does any one in the all grain threads tell K&K brewers to *&$% off? No.......... This website is based on providing possible new idea's and sharing knowledge.


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## Kevman (24/5/12)

cambrew said:


> It was only a suggestion. Does any one in the all grain threads tell K&K brewers to *&$% off? No.......... This website is based on providing possible new idea's and sharing knowledge.



Do any of the Kit brewers tell the All grain brewers when something goes wrong or it doesn't quite taste right that maybe they should use kits instead?

This website is about sharing knowledge. The Kits and Extracts section used to be pretty vibrant but now it seems to be pretty quiet. I put it down to that every topic seems to include an AG or BIAB comment so that many possible contributors go elsewhere or just lurk. 

People know about all grain. If they don't, then being on this forum for a month or so,they will have read articles and had a look at those forums out of curiosity and will learn about All Grain brewing. If they want to do it, they will do it. If not then that's their choice also.

For a knowledge sharing resource, pissing people off because of how they choose to make their beer and tell them that they are making shit beer simply because they used a kit is hardly increasing the membership numbers or increasing knowledge.


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## cam89brewer (24/5/12)

Kevman said:


> Do any of the Kit brewers tell the All grain brewers when something goes wrong or it doesn't quite taste right that maybe they should use kits instead?
> 
> This website is about sharing knowledge. The Kits and Extracts section used to be pretty vibrant but now it seems to be pretty quiet. I put it down to that every topic seems to include an AG or BIAB comment so that many possible contributors go elsewhere or just lurk.
> 
> ...




Wow......


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## stux (24/5/12)

cambrew said:


> Wow......



The reality is that thread title is "Brew Techniques for Quality and Economy"

the reply of "Consider BIAB" is valid.

If you've got a bunch of mates around faffing about for a few hours making beer... might as well faff about for a few more hours and make really good and cheap beer.

BUT that's a big leap, and fair enuff.

The concern is that you end up with bad beer and then you don't make any more beer

...

The funny thing is if you have 4 mates going equals on double or triple batches, you're going through a bag of grain every 2 or 3 brews. That means you can really get your grain prices down. Bulk buy aussie ale malt, re-use yeast. Be stingy on the hops.

Find an ... ahem... pre-loved keg and a nasa burner and you're away.

And that's the way to make really cheap quality beer...

25KG bag of aussie grain will set you back about 50$ in a bulk buy.

That's enough for 5 batches.

10$/batch for malt + hops + yeast

Buying 3 pounds of hops from yakimavalley hops works out to 14$/pound... circa 3$/100g

So, say 2$ of hops + 10$ of malt + $1 yeast + 4$ gas = 17$/batch

And the yeast you can harvest as much as you want to save

That's a great way for a bunch of mates to make cheap quality beer

BUT you can grow into that, get the cold side good and start playing with hops now


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## Anofre (24/5/12)

Back OT:
Age the beer.
Do doubles each week to stock up & try only drink half of the batch.
4 - 6 months to get rid of the 'homebrew' taste & your mates will think it's commercial.
Our family staple was 2x coopers lager + 4kg raw sugar in 44L aged 6 months for over a decade. Didn't ever deviate!


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## glenwal (24/5/12)

Kevman said:


> People know about all grain. If they don't, then being on this forum for a month or so,they will have read articles and had a look at those forums out of curiosity and will learn about All Grain brewing.



Have you actually read any posts on this website? A huge portion of them are people asking the same 5 or 6 questions over and over. You'd think they would have seen the other posts and read the answers - but they haven't.



buckerooni said:


> Switching to AG ingredients-wise is alot cheaper but its the additional equipment, time and care required that may be hard to sell to the troops.


And (not meaning to target the OP here), but this kind of prooves the point. 

a) The additional equipment required is a $19 pot from Big W, and some voil from Spotlight - There is a huge thread about this, and many many other threads talking about it
b ) About the only thing remotely right in this statement is the additional time required - but as a few people have already said - if this is brewing being done by a few mates together, are they really just getting together for the 10 mins it takes to tip a tin in a fermenter? Or could they see them selves sitting around having a few whilst waiting for the mash or boil. Whilst its true AG takes a larger period of time, the amount of time spent actually doing stuff isn't much longer.
c) The additional care required - AG doesn't need additional care. Decent brewing requires additional care - it doesn't matter if its kit or AG. 

(Again, sorry Buckerooni - not aiming this at you as you seem to be willing to listen to other peoples opinions).

No one said here that kits produce bad beer - they offered AG as a method of producing cheap quality beer (which is exactly what the OP was asking for). Its rare to see someone on these forums say kits are crap (note: saying AG produces better beer is not saying kits are crap) - but it seems quite common that kit brewers jump up and down and try to tell people no to bother with AG and to stick with kits and really comes down to nothing more than jealously, where you don't want someone else to advance just because you haven't.


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## stux (24/5/12)

Glen W said:


> Have you actually read any posts on this website? A huge portion of them are people asking the same 5 or 6 questions over and over. You'd think they would have seen the other posts and read the answers - but they haven't.
> 
> And (not meaning to target the OP here), but this kind of prooves the point.
> 
> a) The additional equipment required is a $19 pot from Big W, and some voil from Spotlight - There is a huge thread about this, and many many other threads talking about it



The one problem with that point is that a half batch isn't going to go very far amongst the "troops", and the equipment to do full volume singles or doubles is relatively expensive, compared to a can opener

70L pot, good burner and two cubes will get you doing BIAB doubles

Order a few craftbrewer FWKs to get the cubes and some "all grain" beer to taste test with the troops and you have the sales job done... and your cubes taken care of 

Another point with the cubes... if you do do double cubes... you can always ferment one at a time...

You could for example brew the cubes yourself in your own time if that were the problem and then the "troops" could add the yeast


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## glenwal (24/5/12)

Stux said:


> The one problem with that point is that a half batch isn't going to go very far amongst the "troops", and the equipment to do full volume singles or doubles is relatively expensive, compared to a can opener
> 
> 70L pot, good burner and two cubes will get you doing BIAB doubles



Doing a full batch in a 19L pot isn't hard (theres a big thread on this too). Doing doubles - then yes, you'll need to spend a bit on a pot and a burner. But if your splitting the cost across 3-4 people, then its really not alot per person. Yes, more than a can opener, but its also offset by being able to bulk buy ingredients reducing the cost of each brew, and if brewing for 3-4 people doesn't take long to pay for its self.


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## michael_aussie (24/5/12)

yum beer said:


> Where the hell are you getting FWK's for 50 cents a litre...
> any I have seen run from $40 and up.....$2+ a litre by my calculations.




ooops .. yes .. late at night .... i inversed in my head!!!

yes $2/litre


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## Kevman (24/5/12)

Stux said:


> The reality is that thread title is "Brew Techniques for Quality and Economy"



The reality is that the thread title is 
Brew Techniques For Quality And Economy (like Yeast Cake Reuse, Toucan, *well, this is the kit and kilo forum!

*So BIAB isn't probably an appropriate answer.

The other issue with 4 of them is that if they are splitting the costs and someone wants to pull out. Do they lose any money that has been put in to buy ingredients and equipment? Do they get paid out and how do you estimate on how much to be given to them.

Also it sounds as though the OP is the keen one for homebrew but the gear and brewing is done at mates place. How much extra equipment does this mate want in the house/garage?



Glen W said:


> Have you actually read any posts on this website? A huge portion of them are people asking the same 5 or 6 questions over and over. You'd think they would have seen the other posts and read the answers - but they haven't.



Or they read the other posts asking about how to make better K&K and they get told go all grain or BIAB. They don't want to do that so they keep asking hoping for a different answer.


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## Cactus (25/5/12)

RobboMC said:


> I've gone to brewing close to 60 longnecks in a batch.
> 
> 
> Once fermentation finishes add 12 litres boiled and cooled water to bottling bucket
> ...




Now this is a way to build stocks ! I thank you sir, such a simple idea but I would never have thought of it. 

Can I ask a reasonably simple question ? with the huge amount of fermentables (with a version of this recipe tailored to suit me I get OG of about 1.1) would you be adding 2 sachets of yeast (US 05) ?


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## buckerooni (25/5/12)

this discussion is great actually and it's giving me some great ideas and direction so thanks for all the input. I understand the passion people have for their brewing sub-genres and I'm open to it all that this stage. Kinda like me being a big mountain bike rider and pitying all the roadies - both cyclists but see things differently!

BIAB is a direction I would like to head eventually but the K&K style suits the group at this point and I think will always some in handy to know good fast & simple recipes for those times in the future we don't have an afternoon to get some beer down. In the future I reckon they'll be afew BIAB brew days (bigger efforts) peppered amongst the regular K&K volume brews to keep the thirsty masses at bay!

BIAB/AG time effort is still a factor so I want to get the process right so veryone to understands the basic pinciples of sanitation, timing, process, ingredients and their relationship to the process.

one of the blokes is a sparky and comes across large urns from time to time, which will be the trigger to consider other techniques like BIAB, but until that comes along, quality high volume effective brewing at a reasonable cost is the goal. 

My ears are still open!


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## thylacine (25/5/12)

Cactus said:


> Now this is a way to build stocks ! I thank you sir, such a simple idea but I would never have thought of it.
> 
> Can I ask a reasonably simple question ? with the huge amount of fermentables (with a version of this recipe tailored to suit me I get OG of about 1.1) would you be adding 2 sachets of yeast (US 05) ?




Re POST fermentation dilution: Googling this topic will reveal a variety of yes/no/maybe/etc. positions

eg. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...40747&st=20 perhaps start with posts #28 & 29

cheers


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## petesbrew (25/5/12)

The 4 guys brewing team idea sounds good, as long as you all have the same goals.
I know for now it's all about cheap beer, but are you going to do the same thing over and over, or experiment and try new flavours & styles?

Cheap is good, but then you're drinking rubbish cos "sugar is heaps cheaper than malt".
I'd say a lot of us get into the hobby at first due to the cheapskate factor, but then get excited and obsessed...

Take what advice you want from all posts above, and see where it takes you all.
US-05 is a great yeast to keep on hand (bottle the dregs of the yeast cake for future yeast starters)

Recipe wise - Dr Smurto's Golden Ale recipe (the KnK version) could be one to try out with your mates.
I did a similar one with a cheap Wanders (or Brigalow) kit and it worked beautifully.

At least the bottling production line will work well!


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## iralosavic (25/5/12)

I guess the equation is quality vs quantity. Simple things like actually using a lager yeast will go a long way to producing a superior lager (nb. just about all kits come with ale yeasts or, at best, hybrids). You can almost negate the extra cost by collecting the yeast again after fermentation is complete and you have racked the beer. There are many articles/discussions on the topic.. and it can really be as straight forward as diluting the yeast cake a bit and scooping up the yeasty liquid and storing it in a beer bottle in the fridge.

I moved to BIAB from kits and would never go back as an ongoing thing. I just enjoy the actual recipe creation and brewing process of AG too much. The beer quality is better too, in my humble opinion.

Stux is right in saying that you can produce commercial quality (hell, even better) Aussie lagers as cheaply as kit beers using BIAB methods. The biggest hurdle is the initial outlay to get set up.

For your current position, your best bet is most likely buying a 60L fermenter and throwing in 2 coopers lager cans and 1-2kg of sugar and lashing out on a couple of packs of dried lager yeast like 34/70, assuming you have good fermentation temperature control.


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## Goose (25/5/12)

Fellas, I see a bit of angst floating around on KnK brewers encouraged to go AG as the answer to better beer..  I can't argue that AG makes better beer but I do agree the question raised is about the process to make KnK better in terms of cost and time efficiency... :huh: 




> - toucan recipes - simple and easy producing good tasting beer



yep, if u like a very bitter brew.... otherwise just as easy to toucan using one kit and second can of LME if you can find it



> - yeast cake reuse - of the non-rinsing variety



am interested in the same thing, in fact posted this in the Ag section, but maybe should have put in the common ground section since it applies to any wort fermentation methinks... but have a read, some good stiff in there both positive and negative on doing this : http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=65013



> - brew again straight after bottling - makes sense with the yeast reuse, also get 2 things done in the 1 night



If you can get the timing right, if not, more bottles .... :lol: 



> - syringe tallie priming - simple, easy, fast and cheap



yep, cheaper than coopers lollies and less painful than measuring scoops of dextrose... have you considered bulk priming ? ie just rack into a second carboy, add your entire sugar solution, stir and bottle... I'd argue less stuffing around than syringing 30 bottles... personal choice I guess.


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## iralosavic (25/5/12)

Cans $11.50x2 $23 (big W price)
2kg sugar $2
34/70 $6

$31 for 60L

52c/L - ongoing yeast costs, probably 45c/L - and for an Aussie lager that will taste pretty close to as good as a lot of what's on offer commercially, allbeit a bit cloudier - but you can even fix that by cold conditioning and rotating several brews to keep supplies constant.



iralosavic said:


> I guess the equation is quality vs quantity. Simple things like actually using a lager yeast will go a long way to producing a superior lager (nb. just about all kits come with ale yeasts or, at best, hybrids). You can almost negate the extra cost by collecting the yeast again after fermentation is complete and you have racked the beer. There are many articles/discussions on the topic.. and it can really be as straight forward as diluting the yeast cake a bit and scooping up the yeasty liquid and storing it in a beer bottle in the fridge.
> 
> I moved to BIAB from kits and would never go back as an ongoing thing. I just enjoy the actual recipe creation and brewing process of AG too much. The beer quality is better too, in my humble opinion.
> 
> ...


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## Nick JD (25/5/12)

iralosavic said:


> ...for an Aussie lager that will taste pretty close to as good as a lot of what's on offer commercially, allbeit a bit cloudier - but you can even fix that by cold conditioning and rotating several brews to keep supplies constant.



I could never get my K&K beers to taste like commercial beer. 

What a lot of the Kit Brewers don't realise is nearly every single person who now brews AG beers thinks, "Fark, why didn't I learn to do this years ago. My beers are now perfect and brewing has changed from being a chore to a hobby."

This brewer's paradigm shift fosters uncontrollable evangelistic wont to convert; to save the souls of those still consuming the Devil's Twang.


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## petesbrew (25/5/12)

Nick JD said:


> I could never get my K&K beers to taste like commercial beer.
> 
> What a lot of the Kit Brewers don't realise is nearly every single person who now brews AG beers thinks, "Fark, why didn't I learn to do this years ago. My beers are now perfect and brewing has changed from being a chore to a hobby."
> 
> This brewer's paradigm shift fosters uncontrollable evangelistic wont to convert; to save the souls of those still consuming the Devil's Twang.



Sadly you end up coming across as the equivalent of a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon knocking on your door.


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## RobboMC (25/5/12)

petesbrew said:


> Recipe wise - Dr Smurto's Golden Ale recipe (the KnK version) could be one to try out with your mates.
> I did a similar one with a cheap Wanders (or Brigalow) kit and it worked beautifully.




This is not a good way to get stocks into your fridge. Someone must have been stealing the Dr Smurto
from my garage it dissappeared so quickly.

And will someone please come back to the thread!
How can these guys make K&K faster and cheaper?

A mate of mine made a thing called 'Brew 16' a few years back
A can of Coopers Original Dark Ale and a kg of raw sugar, total cost $16 ( back then anyway )
fermented for 6 days, bottled for 10 and we would take it camping and drink the whole batch
in about 4 days. It wasn't comp winning beer, but it certainly quenched your thirst after a day at the beach.

The old Coopers Original series are the lowest quality cans I would brew with personally, but that's up to you.
Supermarkets and K-Mart tend to offer them a $ less than the HBS, and sometimes even discount when they come toward the use by date. I once saw a guy in Woolies with 8 discounted cans in his trolley, bugger beat me to them.

You can sometimes get a discounted can for around $10, add half a kg of raw or brown sugar, and half a kg of Brewing Sugar and you get something of slightly higher quality then VB for around $15 a batch or 50c a longneck.

Brew in double batches and water down when bottling to halve the time invested, though the bottle washing doesn't halve sadly. But make sure of your sanitation when doing this as the brewing process that would help sterlise is now over.

Bulk priming is faster and easier and with 3 people bottling it's super quick. I get my kids to pass the empties and do a 50 bottle batch in around an hour.


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## Nick JD (25/5/12)

petesbrew said:


> Sadly you end up coming across as the equivalent of a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon knocking on your door.



Beer 8:21

21 He will yet fill your mouth with amber nectar
and your lips with shouts of joy.


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## buckerooni (25/5/12)

Perhaps I'm coming across as a bit cheap, it's part of the equation for sure but it's more about finding the sweetspot of cost, time and result by exploring techniques and approaches around the entire lifecycle of brewing. 

What is worth doing, what is not, what is too high a risk, what things aren't worth skimping on. For example using sugar instead of LDME may be putting cost too far ahead of taste. These are the types of things I'm interested in and much of that is coming out in this discussion.

As I see it the 2 important stages are recipe execution and bottling/kegging. As it's a K&K approach at the moment I want to explore it, try to maximise it and see where other techniques can offer to make the entire experience more rewarding - that is, the making AND drinking AND value.

once i get this one solved I'm moving onto world peace


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## buckerooni (25/5/12)

Perhaps I'm coming across as a bit cheap, it's part of the equation for sure but it's more about finding the sweetspot of cost, time and result by exploring techniques and approaches around the entire lifecycle of brewing. 

What is worth doing, what is not, what is too high a risk, what things aren't worth skimping on. For example using sugar instead of LDME may be putting cost too far ahead of taste. These are the types of things I'm interested in and much of that is coming out in this discussion.

As I see it the 2 important stages are recipe execution and bottling/kegging. As it's a K&K approach at the moment I want to explore it, try to maximise it and see where other techniques can offer to make the entire experience more rewarding - that is, the making AND drinking AND value.

once i get this one solved I'm moving onto world peace


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## robbo5253 (25/5/12)

Something that I think is cheap and rewarding is steeping grain and throwing in to the fermenter, Probably only a few $ a batch and makes a huge difference in my opinion. Have a read up around here but really simply its soaking the grain in a pot at around 65 degrees and then straining and boiling for 5-10 minutes before putting in to the fermenter with the rest of the ingredients.
Cheers
Robbo


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## stux (25/5/12)

I find the only way I can enjoy drinking a kit brew is if there are some steeped grains and some flavour/aroma hopping. The grains really help to cover up the kit twang and you never get good aroma out of a plain kit.

Many brew stores offer "grain flavour packs"

225g or so of specialty grains and a handful of hops makes all the difference

http://www.absolutehomebrew.com.au/?page_i...ainflavourpacks

I'd say its even more important than using a better yeast.


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## Nick JD (25/5/12)

buckerooni said:


> For example using sugar instead of LDME may be putting cost too far ahead of taste. These are the types of things I'm interested in and much of that is coming out in this discussion.



This is a personal issue though. One man's "taste" is very rarely another's. 

I know this statement won't be popular with some die-hard K&K fans - but IM not very HO, using cans of goop is putting cost (time) too far ahead of taste. But, that's IMO - so really this thread is more about what you're prepared to accept.

At the end of the day I'd suggest yeast knowledge and management will improve your beers most if you use inferior ingredients. Beer in the shops is made from malted barley and hops - using other ingredients than these will always be a compromise and your compromise is not often the same as everyone else's.

All these guys that steep grains and boil hop and add LDME and great yeast etc etc and then call it "kit brewing" might as well just be mashing. It'll cost half the amount.


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## iralosavic (25/5/12)

Let's face it, if you buy megaswill and enjoy it then the chances are you're going to be impressed with a toucan coopers lager, sugar and 34/70. This blokes friends probably don't know the difference between an ale and a lager, so tactically he's better off keeping them interested by not asking for more financial outlay until they whet their appetite and take a bit of interest.

I had a mate insist last night that his Hahn Super Dry was the best beer he's ever had. I got him to try a DSGA and it wasn't dry enough for him...


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## Goose (25/5/12)

I also used to go KnK, the biggest issue with it is that you may have a perfect brewing process and sanitation but you just dont know how fresh the contents of that can are ... a use by date doesnt tell you if its been baked in the sun at 45 degrees while in storage. LM does deteriorate with age and I am convinced that a metallic taste came from some part of the packaging process.

For a consideration of taste quality, if you get your hands on some DME you can get creative an make up your own recipes just by boiling some hops, even in a partial boil. When I did that the dreaded home brew twang disappeared. Do some cost calcs, if you get the DME in bulk you may find it competitive. . Of course steeping grains takes it a step further but its not essential.


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## Nick JD (26/5/12)

Goose said:


> I also used to go KnK, the biggest issue with it is that you may have a perfect brewing process and sanitation but you just dont know how fresh the contents of that can are ... a use by date doesnt tell you if its been baked in the sun at 45 degrees while in storage. LM does deteriorate with age and I am convinced that a metallic taste came from some part of the packaging process.
> 
> For a consideration of taste quality, if you get your hands on some DME you can get creative an make up your own recipes just by boiling some hops, even in a partial boil. When I did that the dreaded home brew twang disappeared. Do some cost calcs, if you get the DME in bulk you may find it competitive. . Of course steeping grains takes it a step further but its not essential.



I too isolated the TWANG to be in the CAN. 

100% malt extract and boiled hop brews are twangless. Strongly leads me to believe that concentrated malt extract stored for periods reacts badly with isohops in ways that dilute wort (commercial beer) doesn't.


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## buckerooni (26/5/12)

interesting about the twang, a quick calc with brewmate requires about 3kgs for DME for a 23L brew. 

just spoke to grain & grape who do 22KG bags of DME for $185 which works out at $8.40 a kilo - looking good! If anyone knows a place in Melbourne that can beat that I'd be interested.

I could follow RobboMC's approach do put down a concentrate and water down to roughly 45L when racking now that I have these from my old man's shed (note: never been used!)  :


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## roverfj1200 (26/5/12)

I used to make the cheapest brew I could like a can and sugar kit yeast. Always had beer but most where not great to drink.$15

Moved up to better cans and BE2. Most good beers. $18

Now doing extract brews and now make great beer. Still under $30 a batch. If I where to buy in bulk would be under $25 a batch. 

Reusing yeast and will soon reuse aroma hops to bitter with and the cost will drop again.

But each to his own.

Best thing to do is play around a little with each batch and work on your technique and you will see the cost drop and the beer improve.

But one thing is for sure. Good ingredients will make better beer. 

I would rather pay a bit more for a beer that is great to drink... 

Cheers.


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