# Cheap v expensive kits



## rossbaker (29/7/13)

How good can a can of goop really be? I'm amazed at the price difference between the basic (coopers) and the premium cans. I tend to subscribe to the notion that you get what you pay for, but some cans are twice the cost of others. I guess a case of craft beer can be double the cost of the standard swill. 

The guy at the LHBS asserts that the better cans will make a much better beer. What do you all think? I've used good ingredients so far, but I'd love to get the cost down a bit more.


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## QldKev (29/7/13)

Back when I brewed kits, I found it was the good kits that made good beer. Have you tried a good one vs a cheap one?

Not being negative but how cheap of a beer do you want? $20 odd for over 2 cartons is pretty good going. But if you want cheap beer drink cheap beer.


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## Lodan (29/7/13)

Twice the cost is a fair bit but i would have to know the can in question for comparison. I think it can sometimes be the difference between an imported kit and a local kit, eg. Muntons or Blackrock vs Coopers

I think the Thomas Cooper premium cans make a good beer whilst being only slightly dearer than the base cans.


Edit:
A can is also only as good as the rest of your ingredients. If you buy a premium can and throw a 1kg of sugar in there you will still have an ordinary beer


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## slash22000 (29/7/13)

I found that the Thomas Coopers cans are 10x better than the "Original" cans you get in a supermarket. The only cans I was ever satisfied by (besides Thomas Coopers) were the Pale Ale (with hops etc added to it) and the English Bitter (decent enough to stand on its own with some extra dry malt).

It helps that Coopers only sell them to brew shops (or online) so they haven't been sitting around for 5 years before they go on the shelf.


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## GrumpyPaul (29/7/13)

When I used to do kits and bits I made some really good beers (IMO) by adding some spec grains, ldme and hops.

Its a great way to learn about brewing


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## reardo (29/7/13)

slash22000 said:


> I found that the Thomas Coopers cans are 10x better than the "Original" cans you get in a supermarket. The only cans I was ever satisfied by (besides Thomas Coopers) were the Pale Ale (with hops etc added to it) and the English Bitter (decent enough to stand on its own with some extra dry malt).
> 
> It helps that Coopers only sell them to brew shops (or online) so they haven't been sitting around for 5 years before they go on the shelf.


I agree with you Slash with the Coopers Pale Ale. As my 'session' beer, i use the basic brew enhancer it comes with and add some Amarillo hops to it. Usually comes out spot on. I am about to throw together a Mangrove Jack Belgian Ale this week, and with the kit converter and hops, it cost me $42, so compared to the CPA, it'd better be a good drop or ill not visit that can again...


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## Droopy (29/7/13)

Dude, brew a batch of both - the cheap one and the more expensive one - decide for yourself on what you like, cause it'll guide at least some of your brewing decisions in the future.


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## jaypes (29/7/13)

I have done both Coopers kits and Black Rock kits

I read that Black Rock won Homebrew Kit of the year 2012 for its East India Pale Ale - I brewed it and it was utter crap

Needless to say that was the last kit brew I did


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## Mardoo (29/7/13)

I noticed a distinct difference moving from the usual home brew kits to Breiss and Weyermann malt syrups. Finally got the intense maltiness I was looking for. Then immediately went to BIAB so I didn't do many repeat attempts with those syrups, so this is (heavily) anecdotal.


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## rossbaker (29/7/13)

QldKev said:


> Back when I brewed kits, I found it was the good kits that made good beer. Have you tried a good one vs a cheap one?
> 
> Not being negative but how cheap of a beer do you want? $20 odd for over 2 cartons is pretty good going. But if you want cheap beer drink cheap beer.


Yeah, I was thinking Blackrock v coopers. So far I've used muntons and Blackrock only. $20 total would be fantastic, but by the time you swap a kg of sugar for a good dry malt, use a decent yeast, and add in some hops it gets a bit steeper. Perhaps it's time to order some hops online to get that cost down a bit. 

I'm also pretty knew to it all, so I'm not at the point yet where I can be confident that what I produce will be up to scratch. 



Droopy said:


> Dude, brew a batch of both - the cheap one and the more expensive one - decide for yourself on what you like, cause it'll guide at least some of your brewing decisions in the future.


Yeah, good idea Droopy. Still interested to hear what people here prefer. A fair few recipes get thrown around using basic coopers cans.


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## carniebrew (29/7/13)

jaypes said:


> I have done both Coopers kits and Black Rock kits
> 
> I read that Black Rock won Homebrew Kit of the year 2012 for its East India Pale Ale - I brewed it and it was utter crap
> 
> Needless to say that was the last kit brew I did


Great call...someone needs to call in the all powerful ACCC (cough) on Black Rock for this abomination. A buddy of mine was all excited to be brewing his first IPA with a can of that stuff and a pack of brew enhancer. When he cracked the first one he thought he was drinking a wheat beer. Turns out that Black Rock's IPA has a _whopping_ 17 IBU built into the can (and that's based on only 19 litres). Even the web page for their IPA is stupid...it calls IPA a 'medium hopping beer', and the "You might also like" section at the bottom of the page suggests their Mexican Lager can! Yeah...I remember the last time I was torn between a Feral Hop Hog and a Corona.....

At least Coopers IPA adds 47 IBU to 19 litres.

/rant off


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## citizensnips (30/7/13)

Thomas coopers sparkling ale was the best kit I did, didn't do too many but I would be spending the extra cash, especially with what's said here


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## wbosher (30/7/13)

carniebrew said:


> Great call...someone needs to call in the all powerful ACCC (cough) on Black Rock for this abomination. A buddy of mine was all excited to be brewing his first IPA with a can of that stuff and a pack of brew enhancer. When he cracked the first one he thought he was drinking a wheat beer. Turns out that Black Rock's IPA has a _whopping_ 17 IBU built into the can (and that's based on only 19 litres). Even the web page for their IPA is stupid...it calls IPA a 'medium hopping beer', and the "You might also like" section at the bottom of the page suggests their Mexican Lager can! Yeah...I remember the last time I was torn between a Feral Hop Hog and a Corona.....
> 
> At least Coopers IPA adds 47 IBU to 19 litres.
> 
> /rant off


Over here we have a beer called Tui, on the label it calls itself an "East India Pale Ale"...carbonated cats piss. About as bitter as a woman receiving the Cullinan diamond on Valentine's day. I wonder if the Black Rock kit tries to emulate that delightful drop?


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## brente1982 (30/7/13)

wbosher said:


> Over here we have a beer called Tui, on the label it calls itself an "East India Pale Ale"...carbonated cats piss. About as bitter as a woman receiving the Cullinan diamond on Valentine's day. I wonder if the Black Rock kit tries to emulate that delightful drop?


Bahaha I almost spat my coffee out from laughing when I read that post. What a pisser


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## pk.sax (30/7/13)

rossbaker said:


> Yeah, I was thinking Blackrock v coopers. So far I've used muntons and Blackrock only. $20 total would be fantastic, but by the time you swap a kg of sugar for a good dry malt, use a decent yeast, and add in some hops it gets a bit steeper. Perhaps it's time to order some hops online to get that cost down a bit.I'm also pretty knew to it all, so I'm not at the point yet where I can be confident that what I produce will be up to scratch.Yeah, good idea Droopy. Still interested to hear what people here prefer. A fair few recipes get thrown around using basic coopers cans.


You are probably at the stage I was after doing my second kit and bits. Added up the cost of the kit, malt, yeast, extra hops etc and never did a kit brew again. Look up NickJD's "all grain for 20 dollars".


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## Silver (30/7/13)

Back in my kit days I tried a shitload of "Better Quality" kits only to be regularly disappointed. Always ended up going back to Coopers for quality and consistancy. It doesn't take much to tart up one of their products.


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## wbosher (30/7/13)

Some of the Black Rock kits aren't too bad, especially if you pimp them up a little...just not the IPA one. Having said that, you can't really go wrong if you just stick with Coopers.


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## brente1982 (30/7/13)

I just bottled black rocks new golden ale, will be interesting to see what it's like. Mind you the 2 last brews I've done I have over carbonated severely, so anything would be an improvement. I bulk primed this time so should eliminate that problem.


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## mxd (30/7/13)

I find the 3kg ESB's are nice (well the ones I tried)

if your getting upto $45 in kit and bits grab a fwk from G+G (keg king sell them as well if s/e melb)

and stay off the peptides


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## QldKev (30/7/13)

rossbaker said:


> Yeah, I was thinking Blackrock v coopers. So far I've used muntons and Blackrock only. $20 total would be fantastic, but by the time you swap a kg of sugar for a good dry malt, use a decent yeast, and add in some hops it gets a bit steeper. Perhaps it's time to order some hops online to get that cost down a bit.
> 
> I'm also pretty knew to it all, so I'm not at the point yet where I can be confident that what I produce will be up to scratch.
> 
> ...




Also rather than swapping to the cheapest kit have a look at other ways to save on brew day.
Di-San from Aldi is $2.49 a kg, and makes an awesome cleaner.
Reuse your yeast multiple times (assuming you are not using the kit yeast)
Buy your LME in bulk packs
Order hops online. http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com does 2oz bags. You just need to order up a lot (3.5lb) to make the postage viable.

The other thing AG ingredients can be a lot cheaper than a decent kit. My house Aussie Gold is about $10 a batch if buying ingredients in bulk.


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## wbosher (30/7/13)

QldKev said:


> Also rather than swapping to the cheapest kit have a look at other ways to save on brew day.
> Di-San from Aldi is $2.49 a kg, and makes an awesome cleaner.
> Reuse your yeast multiple times (assuming you are not using the kit yeast)
> Buy your LME in bulk packs
> ...


Or our very own Yob may be able to get you a good deal on hops.


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## technobabble66 (30/7/13)

wbosher said:


> Or our very own Yob may be able to get you a good deal on hops.


Yeah. Check out Yob's site for hops & dry yeast:

http://www.hopdealzaustralia.com/

If you're here in Melb, that probably your best option for quality & price at this stage - postage will be cheap & v quick.


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## Canuckdownunder (3/8/13)

wbosher said:


> Over here we have a beer called Tui, on the label it calls itself an "East India Pale Ale"...carbonated cats piss. About as bitter as a woman receiving the Cullinan diamond on Valentine's day. I wonder if the Black Rock kit tries to emulate that delightful drop?


I had a buddy who gave me a bottle because he knew I was working on making an awesome pale ale. The stuff tasted like Tun Bitter! Absolutely let me down :icon_vomit:

Also I've been working on trying to make a decent Pale Ale out of the Coopers APA. Currently in it's 5th attempt I've sparked it up with 500g crystal 60, 1kg LDME, 100g dex and Amarillo/Cascade hops at 15/5/dry. I'm absolutely in love with the tastes I'm getting from the hydrometer tube samples can't wait to keg it it's gonna be well waiting to tap it!!! :wub: :wub: :wub: and the thing only cost me $32 so all in great beer for not a bad price!


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## yum beer (3/8/13)

Your APA should go nice with the Amarillo and Cascade, I would not have used so much crystal but see how it turns out.
I've made some cracker Pales with the Coopers APA hit, 1kg LDM and a combo of cascade, centennial, simcoe and chinook.


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## manson81 (3/8/13)

One of my favourite beers I like to make is pretty cheap:

Can of Coopers APA ($13.75)
1kg LDME ($8 odd)
20g Cascade steeped 10-15 mins (maybe a buck or two worth)?
Dirty Kit Yeast - free!

No need to steep any crystal, or even get US05 (which I do normally use for my ales). This just works out so ******* nice. Maybe dry hop another 10g of cascade after fermentation.


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## DU99 (3/8/13)

Black rock is made by lion nathan in New Zealand..trying a golden ale with there can's of malt..


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## RobboMC (7/8/13)

The better cans do make better beer, in general and IMHO. Having written that, how much better can depend on the exact can in the range. I have brewed most of the different Muntons cans, and while the Bitter and Pilsener are hardly better than the Thomas Coopers cans and not worth the money, I would say the Yorkshire Bitter and Nut Brown Ale are superb and worth every extra cent. Some of their 3kg kits at around $50 are also not worth the money IMHO.

One of my best recipes is Muntons Yorkshire Bitter and a can of Morgans caramalt LME, Simple, easy and great beer.
The Muntons yeast also seems to be a cut above the others, so remember you are paying for more than just the can.

I reckon the Thomas Cooopers range is worth the extra, I brew pretty much with those always as my base kit now as a minimum, except when I make dark beer with Muntons Nut Brown.

In the end it depends if you are aiming to make lawn mower swill for a hot day, or a world class beer worthy of competition entry.


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## brente1982 (7/8/13)

I guess it could also come down to the age of the kit aswell. How long its been sitting on the shelf for. You can generally expect cans in a supermarket/department store to have been there for quite some time as opposed to the cans in a brew shop.


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## Kingrat (15/9/13)

RobboMC said:


> The better cans do make better beer, in general and IMHO. Having written that, how much better can depend on the exact can in the range. I have brewed most of the different Muntons cans, and while the Bitter and Pilsener are hardly better than the Thomas Coopers cans and not worth the money, I would say the Yorkshire Bitter and Nut Brown Ale are superb and worth every extra cent. Some of their 3kg kits at around $50 are also not worth the money IMHO.
> 
> One of my best recipes is Muntons Yorkshire Bitter and a can of Morgans caramalt LME, Simple, easy and great beer.
> The Muntons yeast also seems to be a cut above the others, so remember you are paying for more than just the can.
> ...


Robbo - Have you made Munton's Scottish style heavy ale? How did you go? Any enchancements? I have a can and 1kg of 50/50 dark/light DME.
Do you rehydrate the kit yeast before pitching? Any advice would be appreciated.


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## sluggerdog (17/9/13)

I also agree the coopers pale ale is a great base kit. I've brewed about 10 of them this year always with added hops and steeped grains creating anything from a 'lager' (saaz / halleratu hops but using us-05 so technically an ale) to many apas and even a few dark ales. 

I won't bother using anything else from now on, I tried a few more expensive kits but they didn't follow though flavour wise for me. I'd rather spend the money on the added hops, grain and a good yeast.


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## damoninja (24/9/13)

I was going to post something similar... I've got 2 batches bottled now, both from decent kits coupled some some grains, DDME, LLME, extra hops and better yeast... 

But I decided to run the gauntlet and go as cheap as I possibly could from a kit point of view. I picked up a tin of coopers real ale on special for $9.50 and a cheap 1kg white sugar for $1. I stuck to the kit yeast, no additional adjuncts, planning to prime with white sugar.

All 3 of these brews should be of "acceptable" conditioning quality around about the same time so it ought to be interesting at taste time (although, the more expensive brews are stout and red ale vs a cheap ass ale)


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## Forever Wort (24/9/13)

I am very curious how that cheap kit turns out. $10.50 is about as good as it gets.


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## spog (24/9/13)

wbosher said:


> Over here we have a beer called Tui, on the label it calls itself an "East India Pale Ale"...carbonated cats piss. About as bitter as a woman receiving the Cullinan diamond on Valentine's day. I wonder if the Black Rock kit tries to emulate that delightful drop?


You have Tui,we have Tooheys,spelt differently,pronounced the same,and yep tastes the same. ...cheers...spog...


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## damoninja (25/9/13)

Forever Wort said:


> I am very curious how that cheap kit turns out. $10.50 is about as good as it gets.


At first I was a little skeptical, the kit smelled almost a little sour (it definitely wasn't off though) possibly the contents were affected by the tin?

As I'm assuming this is a coopers sparkling ale type kit due to the red lable (purely speculation) I used the spreadsheet to calculate an OG of 1.049 and estimated FG of 1.007 to get alc content to 5.8%. 

I tested it last night and read 1.020, naturally it still tastes a little sweet but the strange sourness is now minimal and I think it will be gone when the fermentables are all eaten up. 

I think it's gonna taste alright!


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## hughesyp (25/9/13)

I have brewed plenty of these and they have become my "signature" beer, and the best according to my mates who have a tendency to drop in for a freshie out of the keg:

1 x Homebrand Draught can - (Yes thats right I said Homebrand. At about $8.30 a can you aint gunna get much cheaper)
1 x BE2 - You can use a BE1 if you really want to keep the cost down but come on people!
12 - 16G Galaxy hops - Steeped for abount 10 mins prior to cooling the wort
Add some Dex if you want it stronger!.

At about $13 for 23 litres I challenge anyone to make anything better for the price


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## damoninja (25/9/13)

hughesyp said:


> I have brewed plenty of these and they have become my "signature" beer, and the best according to my mates who have a tendency to drop in for a freshie out of the keg:
> 
> 1 x Homebrand Draught can - (Yes thats right I said Homebrand. At about $8.30 a can you aint gunna get much cheaper)
> 1 x BE2 - You can use a BE1 if you really want to keep the cost down but come on people!
> ...


I'll keep this in mind for my next cheap-ass brew!


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## Diggs (25/9/13)

Best kit I ever made was a Coopers Pale Ale I fermented in the cupboard (around 20c), that being said it was a Coopers recultured yeast. 
If you aren't doing something along those lines, shell out for decent yeast.


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## HBHB (25/9/13)

It's all relative to the brewer, one man's pride is another man's piss.

If you're into beer without any flavour, then they might just like X brand lager. For the next bloke who likes a traditional style English Bitter or Porter, then they might prefer say, a Mangrove jack's Craft Series Kit.

At the end of the day, you are the one who decides if a beer is for you. By that, I mean a $10.00 kit from a supermarket brewed on a benchtop at 28 degrees C with a kilo of sugar might be just what you're looking for, whereas most guys eventually grasp the concept that what makes or breaks beer is the quality of the ingredients and what you do with them. Temperature control during fermentation with a good yeast, good malts and style depending, maybe some hops - will all contribute to making better beer of various styles.

What I can say is that once a brewer explores temperature controlled fermentation in an old fridge with a digital controller & with a better kit, adding more malt than simple sugar and maybe even add some hops, very few turn back.

It's your beer, made to a level of quality you get to determine - good or bad.

Open up a tin of the latest American Pale Ale by Black Rock and you get greeted by hops flowers smiling back at you. Frankly, it ain't half bad when done on US05 with a bit of Cascade or Nelson Sauvin finishing hops and a kilo and a half of decent malt.

Their golden ale is about on par......do it up with some cascade and nelson sauvin finishing hops and a kilo/kilo and a half of malt.

Mangrove Jacks International Kits and their Basic Australian line-up are IMHO up there with the best available for the styles they've created, better still, step up into the Tradition series and pair the brew with the right yeast and malt.

What price is reasonable for a beer? Many guys want to make a beer for $20.00 .....for 2.5 cartons by volume. So break it down to $7.50 a carton, would you expect quality from Uncle Dan's at $7.50 a carton? I think not.

Good quality Kit $20.00
Malt $12.50
Yeast $4.95
Chemicals and general $1.00
Bottle caps $1.50
Hops - go hard $3.50

For under $45.00 you get 23 Litres (2-2.5 Cartons) of something with colour, flavour and aroma that tastes pretty damn good at under $20.00 a carton.

Going all grain, you'd make it for a fair bit less.

You get to choose, because it's about what you like and what you can afford/justify.


Martin


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## damoninja (25/9/13)

Diggs said:


> Best kit I ever made was a Coopers Pale Ale I fermented in the cupboard (around 20c), that being said it was a Coopers recultured yeast.
> If you aren't doing something along those lines, shell out for decent yeast.


I've heard these kits are pretty good actually...


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## damoninja (25/9/13)

HBHB said:


> Good quality Kit $20.00
> Malt $12.50
> Yeast $4.95
> Chemicals and general $1.00
> ...


This is what I've been doing, but I didn't want to knock the cheap shit without seeing if it was actually shit!

If I can figure a decent enough brew with the cheap kits I'll do it on occasion...


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## Byran (25/9/13)

HBHB said:


> It's all relative to the brewer, one man's pride is another man's piss.
> 
> If you're into beer without any flavour, then they might just like X brand lager. For the next bloke who likes a traditional style English Bitter or Porter, then they might prefer say, a Mangrove jack's Craft Series Kit.
> 
> ...


I agree totally. You can find what you are looking for with kits but you need to find out what flavours you like. The more you add to improve the flavour, the higher the cost.

All grain can be a bugger to learn but once you start making 20 litres of amazing flavoured beer for about $12 to $15.... you start to find out why its better in general. I also think kit beers can be tamed with good temp control and good packet yeast like US05 and Nottingham.


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## Pickaxe (29/9/13)

Temp control and better yeast get the tick from me. Best way to improve ANY recipe.

Totally agree, it really is about what you want to achieve.+ time you have to invest, space, equipment, skill level. Always wanting better pushed me to ag via go ag for under $30, and 2 put with lauter threads. Haven't looked back, beer is cheaper.

I have a mate that uses woollies tins and makes great beer, better than I could with same ingredients. He's been brewing that way for years


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## Pickaxe (29/9/13)

Ag ain't that hard either. Just got a mate ag brewing and he's NEVER brewed. Few brews with me and we git him ready. It's not the big mystery it sounds like, just mire of a time sink. Get.someone to show you.

That being said, get a good recipe, use best practice, you'll make great beer. And like ag, get to know your system, and like velicitaptor riding Jesus, turn water into beer!


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## Pickaxe (29/9/13)

No matter kit, extract, partial or ag. Just down to your standards, and your skill/experience.


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## GABBA110360 (29/9/13)

I've been doing kit brews with some enhancements sometimes for 18 months and just going to AG.
all the top range coopers kits seem pretty good.
done a couple of M/jack brews were ok.
MUNTONS top range did one of theres its good and by far the dearest can to buy.
probably the best one IMHO was morgan's blue mountain lager/ultra blend + a little dry hop addition.
probably got a dozen cartons of it 6 months old good after 3 months
cheers
ken


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## FuzzyDropbear (3/10/13)

I usually do a good beer for around the $40 mark, that's including malts, hops and good yeast. I have a Coopers recipe that I'm evolving with a mate which is costing about $20 - $30 per batch, which isn't nearly as good as the more expensive kit & extract beers, IMO.

For me, yes it would be cheaper to go to all grain, but I don't have the time to make an all grain batch, brewing is one of my hobbies and so it fits into the time I can give it. I can only do a few unhopped extract brews per year so it's not worth me investing in BIAB stuff. Still, I'm meaning to pop over to a bloke's house to have a look at how it's done but not sure I can invest the hours into all grain.


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## pist (3/10/13)

Cheap kits will make cheap crappy swill good for nothing but cleaning the drain. More expensive ones I.E Thomas coopers, black rock etc will make much better beer which is drinkable but by no stretch good. Throw away the kits and do some reading. Then go get a grain bag, some grain, hops, a 19L pot from big w, a mashing spoon/paddle and have a crack at all grain. You will be thanking us for convincing you to have a go once you try it and it will work out cheaper than kits once you get into souping them up with hops and specialty grain.


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## Bribie G (3/10/13)

In my kits days I would whip up three brews in the morning and be off to work on the afternoon shift. 
Nowadays I can do a double BIAB batch in five or six hours or a leisurely single batch in four. 

However I know which beers I prefer. 

As with most things in life, no free lunches.


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## damoninja (3/10/13)

pist said:


> Cheap kits will make cheap crappy swill good for nothing but cleaning the drain. More expensive ones I.E Thomas coopers, black rock etc will make much better beer which is drinkable but by no stretch good. Throw away the kits and do some reading. Then go get a grain bag, some grain, hops, a 19L pot from big w, a mashing spoon/paddle and have a crack at all grain. You will be thanking us for convincing you to have a go once you try it and it will work out cheaper than kits once you get into souping them up with hops and specialty grain.


Well my first "cheap kit" has turned out alright, I wouldn't call it crappy but ok-good. It's fairly generic like, it's really just something I can serve when I have guests who don't drink the awesome shit. 

Far cry from the better quality kits I've used however. 

I've already got myself some large pots and going to venture into all-grain territory, I've got a few kits that I'll use up first while I keep doing my research. 

I don't see any point in doing partials first - I've already been using hops and steeping grains anyway... Reckon it's worth crossing the bridge or jumping across?


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## James85 (3/10/13)

Of course the people who brew all grain are going to push it. However there are some of us who just don't have the time due to family and work commitments or the space to brew in this style and we have to use kits and bits.
Lately I have gone to using the Thomas Coopers selection kits, liquid malts and better yeast and my brews have improved imentsley compared to my earlier ones. I think they taste much better than any mega swill beer from a bottle shop and so do all the people who have tried them, not as good the all grain i have tried but definitely very enjoyable. At the end of the day you are drinking it so you have to enjoy what you brew.
As with anything in life though you get what you pay for be it a car, house, mechanic of beer kits.


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## Forever Wort (3/10/13)

I picked up my first ever Woolworths Home Brand Lager kit today for $8. 

Looking forward to tasting the difference between it and a $16 Thomas Coopers kit.


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## Rocker1986 (3/10/13)

damoninja said:


> I don't see any point in doing partials first - I've already been using hops and steeping grains anyway... Reckon it's worth crossing the bridge or jumping across?


That's what I did mate. Went straight to BIAB from doing full extract + grain steeping brews. Took a few brews to sorta get the hang of it and learn what different ingredients bring (well, still am really), but now I have my processes down pat so it's just recipe formulation I'm concentrating the most on now. I don't feel like it was too big a step for me to skip doing partials though. If you feel confident enough to give it a crack straight away then go for it.


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## Diggs (3/10/13)

James85 said:


> Of course the people who brew all grain are going to push it. However there are some of us who just don't have the time due to family and work commitments or the space to brew in this style and we have to use kits and bits.


I've gone from kids and bits to ag, apart from a bigger pot (not actually necessary) and a bag the extra gear was minimal. 
The time is more, but if you are doing a full boil already all you are adding is mash time - well worth it.

Don't get freaked out and think you need to spend big bucks and big time to go ag, as that's just not the case.


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## bum (3/10/13)

James85 said:


> Of course the people who brew all grain are going to push it. However there are some of us who just don't have the time due to family and work commitments or the space to brew in this style and we have to use kits and bits.


You know they sell beer in shops, right?



James85 said:


> imentsley


Other shops also sell books.


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## yum beer (3/10/13)

Forever Wort said:


> I picked up my first ever Woolworths Home Brand Lager kit today for $8.
> 
> Looking forward to tasting the difference between it and a $16 Thomas Coopers kit.


There will be $8 difference to the taste........or 50%........or one will be twice as good as the other.....
Throw it away now and get a decent kit, 23 litres of shit beer is a disappointing thing inded.

I have the Coopers 'Spirit of the Anzac' recipe kit brewing ATM(one it in a local show brew comp), making it for the FIL, hit FG today and it doesn't taste too bad, nothing on the AG Sam SMith India Ale clone sitting at the same stage, but seems promising. That kit costs $46 from memory....AG cost me about $30


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## damoninja (3/10/13)

yum beer said:


> There will be $8 difference to the taste........or 50%........or one will be twice as good as the other.....
> Throw it away now and get a decent kit, 23 litres of shit beer is a disappointing thing inded.
> 
> I have the Coopers 'Spirit of the Anzac' recipe kit brewing ATM(one it in a local show brew comp), making it for the FIL, hit FG today and it doesn't taste too bad, nothing on the AG Sam SMith India Ale clone sitting at the same stage, but seems promising. That kit costs $46 from memory....AG cost me about $30


I'm looking forward to doing all grain, but I just had to buy a thing of the home brand goo so I can see for myself JUST how shit (or unshit) it isn't. I got a hold of some old PET bottles for free, so if it's shit/average I'll "generously" offer to supply the beer at a party I go to. Also I want to challenge myself to see just how cheap I can do an ok-good brew. I did a coopers real ale with just sugar, and it's actually not too bad. Very bitter, nice head, nice colour (so long as it's super cold else the shitness starts to show. 



Rocker1986 said:


> That's what I did mate. Went straight to BIAB from doing full extract + grain steeping brews. Took a few brews to sorta get the hang of it and learn what different ingredients bring (well, still am really), but now I have my processes down pat so it's just recipe formulation I'm concentrating the most on now. I don't feel like it was too big a step for me to skip doing partials though. If you feel confident enough to give it a crack straight away then go for it.


Cheers mate - it really doesn't seem like that much bigger of a step for me since I've steeped grains for 3 of my 4 brews and the 2 that are ready to drink are simply delicious (drinking some chocolate red ale right this second, at about 8-10 degrees the flavours really come out nicely. I think what I'll do it attempt it at all grain and taste them side by side. 




Diggs said:


> I've gone from kids and bits to ag, apart from a bigger pot (not actually necessary) and a bag the extra gear was minimal.
> The time is more, but if you are doing a full boil already all you are adding is mash time - well worth it.
> 
> Don't get freaked out and think you need to spend big bucks and big time to go ag, as that's just not the case.


I thought the same thing too, because half the videos I've stumbled upon are ones where guys have epic setups. I already have the big pots (10L, 15L and 19L, $19 from kmart!) 
The only thing I'm considering investing in is a modified fridge to keep the fv cool in summer... I haven't brewed in this house in summer yet, but I know it gets hot and I'll have to see just how low my downstairs goes temp wise in coming months.


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## damoninja (3/10/13)

Maybe a decent way to cool my wort too, actually... 

I mentioned in another thread: 
I haven't got any fantastic ways of cooling - I submerge my stainless steel pot in a trough and stir the wort clockwise, move the water anti-clockwise.
I leave the plug half out and the tap running so the water doesn't heat up.

I think this will get tedious / dangerous if I started doing full volume boils! Might be OK though...


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## Droughtmaster (4/10/13)

i was surprised i bought a coopers sparkling ale kit and a LLME cost me $38 my all grain brews were costing me the same till andrew advertised now in my grains are nearly 1/2 the price reacon TWOC must be feeling it by now sorry Roy but ya overpriced alot


but yes there are alot of differences try making ya beers whole malt and taste the diference


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## Rocker1986 (4/10/13)

If you start doing full volume boils you might as well just get some cubes and no-chill it. Or invest in some form of chiller. It's just a personal choice of what you prefer to do. No-chilling is good for brewing whenever it suits and storing until you're ready to ferment them, which is what I do and it works best for me at the moment.


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## James85 (4/10/13)

bum said:


> You know they sell beer in shops, right?Other shops also sell books.


Really bum I didn't realize that a place called beer wine and spirits actually sold beer 
And I think the "books" you are referring to are called Dictionaries.


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## bum (4/10/13)

You can learn words from all sorts of books, not just dictionaries.

"You" is being used in its plural form here due to the somewhat hypothetical context.


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## Bribie G (4/10/13)

What's wrong with "one", cobber? Phil the Greek and Charlie use it all the time.


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## bum (4/10/13)

That'd make it a wee bit hard to twist the knife afterwards though, yeah?


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## James85 (4/10/13)

bum said:


> You can learn words from all sorts of books, not just dictionaries."You" is being used in its plural form here due to the somewhat hypothetical contex
> So how about we just agree that you are an arrogant **** who thinks that his word is law and I leave this web site so I never have to see another post of yours again.
> Goodbye all it was nice to know you and I appreciate all the useful advice I got from all of you except for Bum who is a total wanker


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## Forever Wort (4/10/13)

I have witnessed my first AHB Internet spazz up.


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## bum (4/10/13)

I pacifically went out of my way to halp.


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## Yob (4/10/13)

Gosh.. that went south quickly.

:huh: :blink:


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## slcmorro (4/10/13)

Oh dear...


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## nathanvonbeerenstein (8/10/13)

i recently moved to all grain after being predominantly discerned with kit cans. while i mainly used coopers cans (international series mostly) with bits and pieces added, i noticed a huge difference when i tried a can of Blackrock Golden Ale. id always guaged my success as a brewer by how my friends and family rated my beers and it wasnt until the blackrock can did i ever get more than "thats not bad!". another thing i noticed was that the higher quality kit cans seemed to come to their best a lot faster than their cheaper equivelant did!
just my 2c


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## damoninja (8/10/13)

My shit 'n' kilo has completely failed, the first bottle seemed OK but after a week and a bit it's simply awful.

Tipped it, putting some beer in there instead.


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## Crouch (8/10/13)

Please internet .. never change! There is nothing quite so fun as forum fires ... anyway ... I have found the more expensive kits do produce a better beer, though at the moment I don't mind 'doing up' a cheap coopers kit with additions just to give me something to guzzle on whilst I collect my gear for all-grain.


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## Forever Wort (8/10/13)

Some Tooheys kits at my local Woolies for $12 ... should I ?


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## mwd (8/10/13)

My best Toucan used a Muntons Irish Stout and Morgans Dark Ale cans. Pity I drank the majority of them before they came on song.


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## Bridges (8/10/13)

Can't believe I missed all the excitement in this thread. Well played good sirs.


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## RobboMC (9/10/13)

> Robbo - Have you made Munton's Scottish style heavy ale? How did you go? Any enchancements? I have a can and 1kg of 50/50 dark/light DME.
> Do you rehydrate the kit yeast before pitching? Any advice would be appreciated.


It was on my to do list but I never sem to get to it, too many other nice receipe ideas keep popping up. If I were, I'd add perhaps 250g of light crystal to improve the head retention and also make it a couple of litres less volume than Muntons suggest.


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## mattdean4130 (9/10/13)

I've been basing a Coopers Pale clone on a basic Lager kit as read by one of the Coopers mods on the forum. FWIW i've done identical brews with white label Lager and the Aussie Pale Ale kit and not noticed any great difference.

My best brew is a toucan white label stout and dark ale...

Only way to really tell would be to do two identical brews with different cans and ferment at the same time/temp - and then blind test.


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## rossbaker (10/10/13)

damoninja said:


> This is what I've been doing, but I didn't want to knock the cheap shit without seeing if it was actually shit!
> 
> If I can figure a decent enough brew with the cheap kits I'll do it on occasion...


This was exactly my thinking when writing the OP. I'm enjoying the discussion though guys!


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## damoninja (11/10/13)

hughesyp said:


> I have brewed plenty of these and they have become my "signature" beer, and the best according to my mates who have a tendency to drop in for a freshie out of the keg:
> 
> 1 x Homebrand Draught can - (Yes thats right I said Homebrand. At about $8.30 a can you aint gunna get much cheaper)
> 1 x BE2 - You can use a BE1 if you really want to keep the cost down but come on people!
> ...


My original attempt at an el cheapo ale was awful. So tomorrow I'm going to give this recipe a shot!


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