# Help - Killer Infection



## craigarino (27/12/05)

Hi There! I ve been making full mash beers for about four years, have made a small shed and kitted it out like a second home and never had a bad batch....until recently!
On grand final day i made two batches of beer, and used the trub from a batch that had just finished fermenting... they all went bad!
Scrubbed the fermenters and made some more a fortnight later, all one hundred and twenty litres went bad! I have made three hundred or so litres since then, and only two twenty litre batches have not caught this abominable plague- one was a stout kit beer, the other was a normal mash, but I used saflager dried ale yeast, as opposed to the wyeast liquid yeast I normally use!
My questions are this- could I be using the wyeast incorrectly ( i follow the instructions, but it just doesnt seem to take, do I need to thow out my fermenters and replace them ( two are brand new), Do I need to burn my shed to the ground or get a priest to exorcise it? What is the safest method to make a coopers yeast starter from a bottle of beer!
This isnt funny any more Ive got only got two kegs left and over the last four days I just lost another 50 litre batch which got the smell the next morning after brewing, and I just noticed of the three batches left, two of them have gone down while I was away overnight! 
O the humanity  
Craig


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## Darren (27/12/05)

Craig,
Do you clean the lines from your taps?
cheers
Darren


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## craigarino (27/12/05)

Just reading some of the other post... I dont crash chill the wort, I just leave it covered with the air locks in.. Could this be contributing??
Craig


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## craigarino (27/12/05)

Darren said:


> Craig,
> Do you clean the lines from your taps?
> cheers
> Darren
> [post="99632"][/post]​



Do you mean the Keg lines? Yeah I do- but the problem is way before it even gets to the kegging stage! If you mean the mash tun lines i have done also but to no avail!


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## Darren (27/12/05)

crash chilling is important in both reducing the chance of infection but also the formation of other undesirables such as DMS (cooked corn).
When was the last time you cleaned your lines to your taps?


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## craigarino (27/12/05)

which taps? I clean whenever i change my kegs over!?
Is tghis what you mean?


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## Darren (27/12/05)

yep, the lines that go to the taps. Do you clean them with line-cleaner or similar?


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## craigarino (27/12/05)

Yeah proper home brew store cleaner, that i clean the keg with, just pumped through, and then rinsed when i rinse the keg!


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## Darren (27/12/05)

Sanitise everthing for at least 24 hour by soaking with a good dose of chlorine (not your kegs though). Chuck out all your plastic transfer tubes.
Culturing up a Coopers slurry is the last thing you want to do at this time.
How would you describe the "off-flavour"?


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## craigarino (27/12/05)

It smells sweet, very kind of fusil alcohole i guess, and the taste, well spitting out instantly bad! The brew i made the day before christmas, the infection had been there less than eight hours, and i thought i might be able to boil it and pasteurise it, but the taste was already well and truly through it when i tasted the wort with no yeast scum!


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## Darren (27/12/05)

sounds very quick. Are you boiling the wort?


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## craigarino (27/12/05)

For an hour and a half!


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## Darren (27/12/05)

How long have you mashed for? What about your water? Are you using mains water?


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## craigarino (27/12/05)

Mash about an hour and a half, single step infusion, as per dave lines brewing beers like those you buy! Mains water! I use a grain bag in the boiling vessel ( keg) then pull the bag out to sparge, so there is no transfer where it could catch anything, then i pour straight from the boiler into the fermenter!


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## Darren (27/12/05)

Are you filtering or boiling the mains water. Chlorine and chloramines present in mains water (usually quite high at this time of year) can combine with components of the grain (phenols) producing chlorophenolic compounds. These could be described as "medicinal" or "bandaid" or "dettol".
8 hours is too short for an infection IMHO.
cheers
Darren


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## craigarino (27/12/05)

Thanks darren
I ll give it a crack with filtered water then


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## Darren (27/12/05)

cheers, good luck. Undersink filters should remove the chlorines


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## vlbaby (27/12/05)

craig,
its sounds very captain obvious, but something contaminated is still coming into contact with your beer. 
I wouldnt be looking at any process prior to the boiling stage as the boiling would kill any bugs anyway. You need to look at the everything that makes contact with the wort after it leaves the kettle. 
The main idea i can think of is the chiller and the lines. If the lines had some left over wort in the them the last time you used them, this will have probably gone moldy and stuck to inside like glue. No amount of sanitisation will fix that until its been cleaned first. when this happens to me i fire up the HLT with 30L of boiling water chuck in some napisan and circulate it through everything. The heat will disolve anything thats stuck in there, with the aid of the napisan.
After that i run iodophor through to sanitise it.
Then last of all i run some more boiling water through again.
Touch wood i havent had an infection yet.

BTW what sanitiser are you using? I hope its not sodium met. I used to have the odd infection when i was using that stuff. Aparently its only an inhibiitor not a steriliser.
Whatever it is thats infected its gotta be really huge, because i've never heard of an infection taking hold in less than 24 hours.

good luck finding it.

vlbaby.


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## Screwtop (27/12/05)

Was the wort stringy (snotty) in any way or quite viscous or would you say normal viscosity?


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## craigarino (27/12/05)

Yeah I think i am using sodium met.... I would think that because the wort is almost boiling when it goes into the fermenters it must be either airborne or in grained in the fermenter and able to survive even with hot wort over it! The wort isnt stringy or snotty- just normal, even after the fermentation finishes!
This is really killing my brewing gumption!


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## Darren (27/12/05)

Dump the sod met. Try using chlorine or iodophore for cheap options


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## vlbaby (27/12/05)

you mentioned ealier that you scrubbed your fermenters, are these fermenters plastic?
Using and abrasive scrubber on plastic is a big no no. The abrasive scrubber will make thousands of tiny scratches in the plastic that will potentially harbour bacteria. Always clean your fermenters will a normal sponge and dump the sodium met. I dont even understand why brew shops sell it. Get yourself some iodophor. Its basically the same ingredient that nurses use to sterilise a wound. I've never had a single infection since ive used it.

VL.


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## Linz (27/12/05)

What city are you in Craigarino???

with a lot of cities going into low dam levels the level of chlorine being added to water is on the increase...




> The wort isnt stringy or snotty- just normal, even after the fermentation finishes!
> 
> 
> > well reading this...its either your racking cane(moving beer from fermenter to keg) or keg-lines/taps....but it sounds like my fav and first infection...the fermenter tap!!....... pulled that apart and cleaned it???


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## redbeard (28/12/05)

yeah, i pulled apart a fermentor tap & was quite surprised (& disgusted) at the slimy string inside of it. this is despite the regular boiling water & napisan type cleaning


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## Uncle Fester (28/12/05)

For the cost of fifteen bux, should you try another fermenter from Bunnings?

And, have you tried soaking the fermenter in bleach for a few hours?

M


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## altstart (28/12/05)

Good day
It is possible to get an infection in the kettle at the back of the tap. And it will survive boiling. I speak from personal experience such an infection cost me approx 900 ltrs of beer. When iI finally found it I could have kicked myself I cannot count the number of times I looked at that tap and dismissed it as the source of the infection with the thought that the tap would be sterilised by the boil. When I finally out of sheer desperation checked the tap it was so obvious it was the source. I now have a three piece S/S tap and it gets stripped and sanitised every time it is used. 
Cheers Altstart


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## Screwtop (28/12/05)

I'm down the same alley as Linz on this, had an infection/re-infection problem a couple of years back. Advice from a very experienced brewer was to ditch met and only use bleach (1 cup in a bucket of water) and also to remove the washers from the tap when sterilising. That was it sure enough! was already using bleach solution to soak my taps overnight before use, but not removing the washers. Used White King Bleach after that for all sanitisation, until recently getting hold of some Phosphoric Acid. It's easier to use and you don't end up with white blotches in your best brewing clobber.


Edit: Mistooks


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (29/12/05)

altstart said:


> Good day
> It is possible to get an infection in the kettle at the back of the tap. And it will survive boiling. I speak from personal experience such an infection cost me approx 900 ltrs of beer. When iI finally found it I could have kicked myself I cannot count the number of times I looked at that tap and dismissed it as the source of the infection with the thought that the tap would be sterilised by the boil. When I finally out of sheer desperation checked the tap it was so obvious it was the source. I now have a three piece S/S tap and it gets stripped and sanitised every time it is used.
> Cheers Altstart
> [post="99684"][/post]​



Absolutely agree here, I lost a batch due to the same thing. When I pulled the tap from the boiler apart it was unbelievable the amount of gunk built up in it and how it had not affected previous batches is beyond me.

good luck with finding the source of infection mate.

C&B
TDA


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## Trev (29/12/05)

Could it be an airborne contaminant?

You say you've built a new shed for all the brewing - is it coming from in there (somehow)? Wash out the shed  

If all else fails, soak absolutely every damn thing you own (for brewing) in a bleach solution as described previously. Pull apart everything - taps, washers, spoons etc, break all of your gear down to the absolute smallest parts so you can clean and inspect. Throw out any racking hoses, check the thread on the tap bung of your fermenter and clean it with a toothbrush. Replace the fermenter taps. What does your yeast starters taste like - are they infected before it even makes it into the fermenter.

I once had a couple of kegs go off over a handfull of days. Buried and hidden inside the tap was some nasty gunk, gunk that wasn't bothered by the Idophor solution I ran throught the lines each keg change  

Test your production techniques. On the next batch, take about a litre or so of your cooled wort out of the fermenter prior to aeration and pitching the yeast, and put it in a sanitised and completely sealed jar, something that will be absolutely air tight. Wait a few days and open it. In theory it should be just like it was when you put it in. Check the taste and the FG. If it's already infected you should taste it and the SG will have lowered. Eventually it will go off as none of us can hope to perfectly sterilise everything, but if it happens quickly then it may help to pinpoint your problem.

Wash the shed again  

Trev


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## pint of lager (29/12/05)

Have a read of jgriffin's infection thread. Also read this one.

All of the suggestions so far are great advice.

Upon reading your original post, because you managed to ferment out a kit beer, and another beer using dry yeast, the culprit would appear to be your yeast. You said, "I have been following directions, but it just doesn't seem to be taking" what are your directions and what symptom is it when you say it isn't taking? There may be a regular bit of gear that you have been using for your yeast that may be infecting your brews.

Totally rearranging your brewshed may mean that your brews or brew-ware is being exposed to something it wasn't before, such as dust from crushing.

Get rid of the sodium met and use iodine and or phosphoric acid. As Trevor and others have said, pull everything apart and clean thoroughly. Replace your racking tubes. Pull the tap aprt from the boiler. Pay attention to every surface that contacts your beer after the boil.

Another point, it is time to get a wort chiller, either cfc or immersion.

You also said, "just lost another 50 litre batch which got the smell the next morning after brewing" do you mean that the day after brewing, prior to pitching the yeast, your beer already was infected?" This may or may not help in narrowing down the problem.


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## craigarino (29/12/05)

Hey guys, Thanks for all the advice!
I have just finished going over the whole god forsaken shed with white king!
The good news is i dont think i have finger prints any more and if I do, they are clean finger prints! The fermenter is currently filled with more white king and ill rinse it out tomorrow morning!
Ive put my grain order in, and will be brewing either tomorrow night or saturday arvo! I think quite a few of your comments might have been on the money, I guess I have become a little too complacent, but i think this little excercise was a real smack in the chops!
Ill let you know how it all turns out.
If its all roses, your all welcome for a pint in my shed ( youll need to gown and face mask but!)
If it still fails.......any body interested in a cheap brew setup?
Thanks again Craig :unsure:


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## craigarino (3/1/06)

Hey guys! Just a quick up date! I think I might need to burn my shed!! My latest batch has gone bad after wiping all table space in the shed with straight white king, washed all the equiptment with white king and all the fermenters too! 
I dont know a lot about yeast except that i hate this new evil yeast as much as my wife hates good yeast! It surely cant survive the white king experience can it?? I have got one more batch of grain which ill mash this weekend and put into a brand new fermenter and try and take straight out of the shed and ferment in the house! If this doesnt work I am at a loss so I guess I ll be needind some extract brewing recipes that i can make in the kitchen!
Will Glen twenty, disinfectant spray kill yeast?
Watch this space!
Craig


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## NRB (3/1/06)

Craig, are you crushing your grain in this new shed? If so, I would suggest otherwise as grain dust contains bacteria, viz. _Lactobacillus_.

Have you let any of these batches completely ferment? I've noticed the trend is that you're calling them bad when only a few days in the fermenter.

I'm no expert, but shooting at reasons for your experience.


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## Darren (3/1/06)

Did you change your water? Don't use the Glen 20 but I guess that was a joke.
NRB has some good points. Time can cure a lot of brew evils

cheers
Darren


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## Batz (3/1/06)

I'll bet anything it's your fermenter Craig , try a new one  

I had a problem like this years ago , please get a new fermenter and try again.
Old one will be good for grain storage

Batz


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## Screwtop (3/1/06)

In very early working life as a baker I worked in a hand bakery with wood fired ovens. If the bakery was infected by a ropey bacillus infection the whole bakery, all walls and floors and all timber troughs had to be scrubbed with vinegar or citric acid and production would cease for 3 days while all walls were then whitewashed. Would think that boiling would beat any infection in the crush, however rope survived the oven temps to ruin the bread. Later on in a mill lab, was amazed at just how hardy these bacillus strains proved to be. I'm with Batz, get a new fermenter TAP AND SEAL.


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## craigarino (3/1/06)

Thanks guys, the new fermenter will be ready for the weekend!
I have let the first few infected ones go right through and keg them! Still rubbish, in fact very funny watching the neighbour who quite likes beer, see just how long he could hold them in his mouth for!! Its happened so many times now, and the smell is so distinctive, Im pouring them out after a week ( you can also taste it in the yeast foam! as the monks say, good yeast should taste good!)!
Fingers crossed for this weekend- I might even use bi lo bottled water!
Thanks again- ill keep you all informed!
Craig


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## craigarino (3/1/06)

Oh and no I dont crush my own grain! And if it could prolong this problem , i never will!


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## Ross (3/1/06)

craigarino said:


> Thanks guys, the new fermenter will be ready for the weekend!
> I have let the first few infected ones go right through and keg them! Still rubbish, in fact very funny watching the neighbour who quite likes beer, see just how long he could hold them in his mouth for!! Its happened so many times now, and the smell is so distinctive, Im pouring them out after a week ( you can also taste it in the yeast foam! as the monks say, good yeast should taste good!)!
> Fingers crossed for this weekend- I might even use bi lo bottled water!
> Thanks again- ill keep you all informed!
> ...



Craig,

Get another brewer round to watch one of your brew days - It's amazing what another set of eyes can spot, sometimes...

cheers Ross


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## Jazzafish (4/1/06)

I agree with Ross, another brewer would be a good idea...

However, What yeast are you using? Could it be a bad culture that was grown and pitched over the various batches? Maybe try a dried yeast?

Another fermenter will always be a worthy investment too... hard to have too many fermenters to choose from!


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## vlbaby (4/1/06)

craig,
it seems very unusual that an infection can take hold so quickly as you are describing. <_< Are you 100% sure that it is an infection and not something else? Are there any other signs of infection, like fatty solids floating on top etc? 

Also are you still using the liquid yeast that you've used before? It seems that the only brews that have made it through your shed so far have been those that have been brewed with dried yeast. Could your yeast starters (assuming you use them) be the source of the contamination?

Another thing, have you been aerating the brew with an air stone or similar? Maybe this is the source. 
I hope you sort it out soon. It must be driving you crazy by now


vlbaby.


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## craigarino (9/1/06)

Greetings and salutations!
Bought a new fermenter on friday!
Sanitised the shed again, and the new fermenter!
Sanitised the grain bag and kettle,
Didnt use any of the old things I used to, such as a plastic funnel, or a filter bag!
Just mashed for an hour, and boiled hard for an hour an a half.
Decanted it into the new sixty litre fermenter, dopped in three bags of ice,
topped up with water, pitched the blue packet of safale yeast ( no starter just in case ), the next day I i thought i could smell that familiar smell, but seeing that its been so long since ive had non possessed beer, I let it go- just tasted it then and although its not the beer Im used to (its hard to put your heart into the beer when you think youll be pouring it down the sink)! I dont think its the spit out dog swill ive been brewing! Should have spoken so soon should I !
I might make a few cheap beer kits just to check Im out of the woods and, Ill definatly look into wort chill ( they can be copper right?)
Thank you all for the advice!
If there is any one in the Yarraville area Melbourne) who fancys a beer on my next brew day- drop me a line as I guess I have still got a lot to learn, and I guess it can only help if another brewer can pick up on my faults!

Thanks again!
Craig


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## Darren (9/1/06)

craigarino said:


> Greetings and salutations!
> Bought a new fermenter on friday!
> Sanitised the shed again, and the new fermenter!
> Sanitised the grain bag and kettle,
> ...





Craigarino,
That ice you are putting in the fermenter is a big chance of causing problems. You need to chil as quick as you can but the ice is likely to contain bugs especially adopted to grow at low temps. Go to your local plumbing store and buy a whole coil of 1/2 inch copper. It is cheaper that way than getting a couple of metres from bunnings.

cheers
Darren


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## pint of lager (9/1/06)

Latest Bunnings flyer has a 15m coil of 12.7mm for $49. Don't buy it by the metre, I think I had to pay $6.50 a metre the other day from the plumbing suppliers, the scrap metal recyclers had none.


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## Darren (9/1/06)

That is a good price. I guess you should find your cheapest supplier by phone and then go to Bunnings and get a further 10% off 8).

cheers
Darren


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## Prof. Pils (9/1/06)

Dont give up Craig. Fabulous beer is just around the corner, If I'd had as much trouble as you I would have given up ( probably not).
I've alway used bleach and never had an oxidised batch.
Keep at it!
Cheers Glenn


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## Darren (9/1/06)

Bleach is great. (pool chlorine is a cheap supply of it). Just don't use it in stainless as it may cause it to "pit"

cheers
Darren


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## PistolPatch (10/1/06)

I reckon Darren is spot on about the ice. If this latest batch turns out OK, you probably got a few lucky bags! Hopefully keeping the ice on the outside of your fermenter i.e. in a the laundry tub with water will cool your wort quickly and solve all your problems. Fingers crossed!


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## Justin (11/1/06)

A lot of the answers that people have posted here are good ideas.

I think I can spot a few places for problems. The first and biggest one as stated would be that ice-don't use it- half the time the ice you buy isn't even meant to be consumed and only used for eskies. Given your off flavour is there so quick I suspect this is the cause. Three bags of ice is a pretty major contribution to the fermenter. If the ice has got baddies in it already then adding that much ice is probably why your getting the flavours so quick.

Also, your using a filter bag and a funnel. I'm assuming you are using these bits and pieces when transferring from the kettle to the fermenter (to catch the hops?)? I don't like cloth bags anywhere after the boil. They are hard to sanitize in my opinion and I wouldn't use them. Can I ask why you aren't transferring your beer from the kettle to fermenter using a length of sanitized plastic tube? It will also help stop your beer from splashing while it's hot leading to the (controvercial) hot side aeration, which just isn't a good thing for your beers stability.

I strongly suggest as others have mentioned, to make yourself a chiller. Rapid cooling of your wort is important, amoung other things, to get your yeast in and fermenting quickly before other beasties take hold. Make sure you put the chiller in the boil for the last 15-20mins of the boil to sterilize it. Don't just stick it in at the end when you just want to start chilling, give it a good 15-20mins.

Also, I'd look closely at your yeast handling techniques. Once again this last brew that you talk of that seems to be going ok has been pitched with dry yeast. One of the other guys here mentioned this a while back. I'd look very closely at this aspect as well-especially as you seem to be unsure of what your doing with liquid yeasts. It isn't hard stuff to do but if you stuff up your starter or pick up a bug in that step the rest of your batch is doomed.

There is heaps of info on this site so I guess it's time to start searching the topics for chillers, yeast culturing etc. Also, a good read of John Palmers "How to brew book" (it's free online at www.howtobrew.com) certainly wont go astray. I think everyone can learn a lot from that book.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Cheers, Justin


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