# Starting Wyeast



## Batz

I notice a lot of new brewers ask about starting liquid yeasts

I have set out my way of doing this thinking it may help some of you , I am not stating that this is the only or correct way , but this is how I do it myself with success.

First of course you have to score the wyeast , now where I live (and big d) that means mail order , you maybe able to drop into your nearest HBS.
If not email me for a tip

Take it out of the fridge (this is where you should store it until ready to use it )

Allow to return to room temperture

Now you will feel a lump in the pack , instructions on the pack are clear , but you have to "smack" or pop this lump
Of course this is an inner bag , it contains all the stuff to get the yeast and the nutrients feeding together.

Pic shows "smacked" pack


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## Batz

Now this is the trap !

Your looking at it right ? Why has'nt anything happened? 
Doh !! I killed it ! It's a sleep ! 

Now after a lot of worry , nothing is changed.....well...

I have come to believe that...you remember the tooth fairy, put the tooth in a glass of water , but the tooth fairy will not come till your as asleep , no good looking !

Well the wyeast fairy is just the same , look a it and nothing will happen , go on shake it , no change ...but go to bed and don't think about it,AND when you awake, you find this !


Took 3 days !
I looked :unsure:


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## Batz

OK
Now we have a yeast ready to pitch , now you know about sterilizers , well this is more important than ever.

First boil 1.5 lt of water with 1/3 cup dry malt extract , place in freezer and allow to cool

I use one shot to sterilize my bottle , funnel , cap , my hands , I have a spray bottle with metho in it , I spray the wyeast pack , and the scissors.

Place the cool wort into your bottle , a 2-3lt coke bottle will do , add the wyeast 
( everthing has had the sterilizer treatment! )

put on a cap and shake like shit, this is to add oxygen to the wort

I then add a airlock , you may not want to do this , you can release pressure if you wish , I find this easier , yep the cap and airlock got the sterilzer


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## Batz

Once this starts working , and I am sure you know by now how brew works .

You can "Step up" this means find a bigger container if the one you using is too small and "feed" the yeast with cooled wort made as before

I do this 3-4 times and finish with around 3 - 4 litres , you could continue and make more I suppose

I also now keep the starters in a temp. control so it is the same as they would be come brew day , this is up to you.

Pic shows my starter stepped up 3 times and ready to bottle


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## Batz

OK
After this, and before the activity has stopped completely , prepare again with the sterilizer and have bottles ready , you can use subbies here

Bottle this living yeast culture 

Each of these bottles you store in a cold fridge , when ready to pitch, return them to room temperture , again feed with cooled DME , once working add to your brew as nomally you would add yeast

Oh.. allow a couple of days to get the yeast off before doing a brew , this will ensure it's well alive and ready

I get several bottles , works out at around $2 per brew , then you can use yeast cakes , I don't do this but I am sure someone will explane how.

I hope this is of some help to brewers new to liquid yeasts

Cheers batz


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## Batz

I have to finish with this
Try liquid yeasts , really they make an incredable difference to your brews , go to the wyeast website to get an idea which one would suit your brew.

The cost is offset by the amount of cultures that you can produce , as I stated , I am no expert and quite new to liquid yeasts , I am sure there will be alot of brewers who may have better ways to culture these yeasts , this will give you an idea anyway.

Cheers 
Batz


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## RobW

Well done Batz - good info & pics. Looking at the post times you obviously couldn't sleep last night


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## BarneyG

Batz your a legend, I have been waiting for some good info like this  

I'll give wyeast 440 (begian wit) a crack on my next brew!


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## Batz

Day off today KenEasy

Was a bit late but I have been meaning to post this thread and decieded to finish it off


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## Jeff

Thankyou batz
easy to understand with the help of the photos
A great help


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## johnno

Excellent Batz,
As I'm going to use liquid yeast next brew this is very informative.
I'll make as many starters as I can from it.
Thanks for this post.

cheers


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## wedge

how many times do your guys use you wyeast, i have used them now up to 6 times, i haven't really noticed any difference. <_<


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## johnno

Got one of these yesterday and i smacked it at 7 last night thinking it will take a couple of days to take off. 
Well this morning its puffed right up.
Hope it can wait till tonite when i get home to start it up.

cheers


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## Gout

Guys in melb, we should start a Yeast Exchange 

if you split your pack into 5 starters then there is a heap of yeast to use.
i have 3 lagers, 2 ales, 1 wheat, i want a kolsh and a few more but i just dont use them enough esp ones like wheat. 

ohhh a pils would be good also, curently i use my danish lager yeast. 
Might make a munich with my munich yeast next!

so many beers to brew, not enought time!


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## johnno

Ben
I'll be in that.
It will be a while for me though. I just got my first liquid now. Next one im getting will be the london ale 1028.
cheers


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## Jovial_Monk

That was an excellent description of making and splitting starters, Batz.

I would offer just a minor twist on it.

I like to have the starter bottle be fermented out a day or two b4 brewday, so by the time brewday arrives there is a clear liquid over the yeast and a solid yeast cake. Now, after the mash has been going about half an hour I draw off a pint of wort, boil this for 15 mins, cool then pour off the liquid from above the yeast cake and add the pint of wort. Shake like shit etc.

By the time the sparge/boil/chill has been done, the yeast in the starter bottle is going great guns, and I can pitch an active starter of the same wort as the main wort.

I never put the starter bottle in the fridge to settle out the yeast--never ever check the yeast.

White Labs also makes excellent yeast, in the form of "pitchable tubes" and I always make a starter first.

Jovial Monk


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## Bigfella

Do you think it would matter if I used dextrose instead of DME for propagating only because I have some dextrose laying about.


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## Jovial_Monk

of course it does!


Sheeit! Yeast needs nutrients

Shugah ain't got none


sheeit!


If you have dextrose laying about there is always the sink. . .


Jovial Monk


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## Bigfella

So I'm guessing that was a stupid question then.

My problem is that I wanted to do some propagating tomorrow but I forgot to get some DME.

Would it work if I got a cheap kit from the supermarket and boil up a bit of this.

I also have some Brewiser liquid sugar but I guess this is the same problem it amazing what you find from the kit days.

I need a HBS open on Sundays.


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## JasonY

Better to use all malt if you want to preseve the 'pureness' of your strain of yeast. My undersstanding is that the yeasties mutate when fed stuff other than malt (and they still do even then).

The cheap kit would do the trick.


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## Bigfella

So I guess the next question is how long can you keep a Wyeast once it has puffed up. I popped it about two hours ago should I just put it back in the fridge or let the process continue


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## sosman

Bigfella I have some DME in the cupboard if you are desperate. IIRC you don't live far from me.


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## Linz

Bigfella said:


> So I'm guessing that was a stupid question then.
> 
> My problem is that I wanted to do some propagating tomorrow but I forgot to get some DME.
> 
> Would it work if I got a cheap kit from the supermarket and boil up a bit of this.
> 
> I also have some Brewiser liquid sugar but I guess this is the same problem it amazing what you find from the kit days.
> 
> I need a HBS open on Sundays.


Bigfella,

NO ...Its not a stupid question!!!!.........you asked it.

it would have been stupid NOT TO.

Yeasties are creatures of habit also. They aclimatize(?) themselves to what they are eating and have a horrid time of adjusting to new food, if they do at all.
I can't see a problem using a bit of kit to propogate with either..a coopers from woolies would be cheap enough wouldn't it??


And most of all......who takes the Mad Monk seriously anyways?????  The advise might be good....its the delivery that sux


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## GMK

OK

Flame suit on...

i have used dextrose and a little lemon juice to provide acidity to beef up - propagate liquid yeast.

If you are stuck for yeast nutrients - use an old dry yeast sachet boiled for a couple minutes in water - this ensures the yeast are dead and provides nutrients for the new yeast.

Usually, i add an old yeast sachet in the boil for this reason.
I hate wasting things.

I agree that malt - even honey - is better than dextrose - but it all depends upon what you have a vailable at the time and the old cost/benefit analysis.

As a CISCO Acedemy Teacher - i tell my students in the first lesson that:

" The STUPIDEST question is the one that is not asked. If you know more after getting the answer then you have Learned! "

Flame suit off - here endeth the lesson.... :lol:


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## ben_sa

While at Goliaths on thursday night (or was i tuesday)???

He had the 1275 going, Which i took a sample (500Ml)

Ill be copying his style, Every now and then, Puncture a can Of coopers Malt extract and just pour some in, then shake shake shake, Shake your booty, 

Voila 

Ben


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## Jethro

Great Info Batz, Im about to try the Liquid yeast myself shortly. How long can the cultures survive in the fridge? and are there any Perth Brewers interested in a yeast culture exchange,
Jethro


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## peter

whats the diff between propagating wyeast as a starter then dividing them into stubbies for future brews- why not put the whole wyeast pak into your wort and then divide the yeast cake up after the brew has finished into stubbies?
same thing isn't it?


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## Bigfella

This is a question for Bats but I'm sure someone else will be able to help me.

At what point do you step up your yeast when it is finished fermenting or when it is near the end.


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## Justin

Peter, when the yeast is fresh out of the pack you can vouch for it's purity. By the time it comes out of your fermenter it can be an unknown quantity, it may have mutated somewhat due to temp extremes, will inevitably have some degree of infection however small, so you just can't be certain. By splitting early on you know your starting with the purest yeast that's feasibly possible in the homebrew environment. Plus what if you get an infected batch-bye bye new yeast strain!

Mostly though by making a starter and then spliting into stubbies/containers your minimising the number of vessels and amount of handling your doing with the yeast, which minimises the chances of picking up baddies. Also there is the issue of generations. Basically, splitting from the 1st started means your working from G1 and thus more likely to keep culturing up the original strain of yeast.

I generally culture from plates and slants (although I do some stubbies too), but then I have access to autoclaves and laminar flow cabinents, incubators, the works. If I did not have access to all these things I would definitely use the procedures outlined above regarding splitting into containers. It's easy, it works and the bonus is the time it takes to get a culture up and going is much reduced compared to working of slants and plates.

Cheers, JD


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## Rubes

Some extra questions:

How long do you reckon the yeast can be stored in stubbies?

Can you take a stubbie after say 6 months and redo the whole process to create a bunch of new 2nd generation stubbies?

How many times can you do this?

I have kept a bottle for 9 months and got a very slow but eventually good starter going. Wasn't keen to pitch it though as it took about a four days to really get going.


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## Trough Lolly

Rubes said:


> [snip]Can you take a stubbie after say 6 months and redo the whole process to create a bunch of new 2nd generation stubbies? How many times can you do this?[snip]


I make the next generation out of the last stubbie of the current batch. The yeast will easily survive a year in the fridge - as long as you had good sanitation and sterilisation practices in place...

So far, about 6 to 7 generations will work - beyond that the general consensus is that the risk of yeast mutation gets very high.

Cheers,
TL


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## Kai

GMK said:


> If you are stuck for yeast nutrients - use an old dry yeast sachet boiled for a couple minutes in water - this ensures the yeast are dead and provides nutrients for the new yeast.
> 
> Usually, i add an old yeast sachet in the boil for this reason.
> I hate wasting things.


 I reckon that's great thinking. Nothing like feeding the living on the bones of the dead!


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## Jase

Hi Fellas,

I have just returned to brewing after a five year break. It feels good to be back. Have a MSB Nut Brown Ale going at the moment, and after a slow start, problem with airlock, and slow starting yeast, I got thinking that there must been a way to control the yeast side of things. Answer: liquid yeast.

I am trying to get my head around this, I seem to be ok with the fermenter part, but the recultivation part, I'm not so sure about, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

You make up your first yeast wort, and do you pour the entire contents of this wort into 6 stubbies, for further use. Then use the stubbies as required, and when you get to the last stubbies, repeat the process again, make up and pour off into 6 stubbies. Is this correct? If so, how many times can you do this?

Sorry to drag the post down. Any help would be great.

Cheers,
Jase :unsure:


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## Hoops

Batz

Firstly - great article on yeast starters. (You gave me the motivation to get some Whitelabs liquid yeasts.)
I recently bought some Whitelabs yeasts from ESB:
WLP001 : California Ale Yeast
WLP940 : Mexican Lager Yeast

I am in the process of making a starter (WLP001) to divide up.
My question is when do you step it up and add more malt/wort?
Do you add it at high krausen or when the fermention has slowed down? (running out of food)
Or do you just add wort once a day?

Hoops


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## Trough Lolly

Jase said:


> You make up your first yeast wort, and do you pour the entire contents of this wort into 6 stubbies, for further use. Then use the stubbies as required, and when you get to the last stubbies, repeat the process again, make up and pour off into 6 stubbies. Is this correct? If so, how many times can you do this?


Welcome back to brewing Jase!
Step up to a three litre 1.040 wort using malt only (I don't bother wasting hops that may not be the right ones for the future brews) and decant the starter at high krausen into stubbies. The stubbies don't have to be chockers, but if you use 300ml stubbies you will end up with more stubby starters than if you used larger vessels to hold your yeast starters in.
Each stubbie is refrigerated for use later on - just take one out before brew day and make up a fresh starter for the brew you're about to do. You need to let the stubbie stand to get back to room temp and gently ease off the cap - decant the unhopped beer off the stubbie and swirl the slurry in the bottom of the stubbie. Pour it into a fresh starter solution and it will activate and get ready for your brew the following morning, or whenever you plan to do it. Pitching this active starter into the fresh wort means you have a running start at the fermentation process.

Once you get to the last stubbie, I use this one to make up a fresh 3L starter and repeat the whole process to make a second generation of yeast starters. About 6 to 7 generations should be possible - ie up to 80 stubbies of yeast starter out of a single XL smack pack is possible if you have good hygiene and yeast management techniques.
Cheers,
TL


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## Batz

That's about it as Trough Lolly said

Welcome to the wonderful world of liqiud yeasts


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## Jovial_Monk

Anyone noticed that the new Wyeast 125ml sachets now have 100billion cells minimum? up to the end of April the sachets only contained 40-60 billion cells.

You can now easily do without a starter: punch the sachet one day, pitch into 23L wort the next. Do this only if the yeast is fresh, then again don't buy yeast that is not fresh.

The new "Activator" sachets are easy to recognise, they have a bright blue front in place of the usual gold color

Jovial Monk


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## Hoops

How many cells are in a WhiteLabs vial?


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## Jovial_Monk

From the Whitelabs site, HB info page:

Each vial of White Labs liquid yeast is designed to be used directly in 5 gallons, or "pitchable". Each vial is equivalent in cell count to a pint starter, or 30-60 billion cells. One vial will usually start fermentation in 5 gallons in 5-15 hours at 70F. If a faster start is desired, or if initial gravity is over 1.070, we recommend a 1-2 pint starter be made. 

I think we will soon see the number of cells rise though, now that WY has stepped them up

Jovial Monk


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## Murray

I've had no problems directly pitching WL tubes, though obviously I haven't done so with big beers. Last time I pitched the tube (WL001) into an OG 1.050 wort, then harvested the krausen to make further cultures.


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## Jovial_Monk

me neither, Murray

But more cells for the same price is good news!

JM


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## Murray

Of course, JM, I won't be complaining if the cell count increases


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## Hoops

Well following these instructions I split my WLP001 into 10 Grolsch bottles and they have been sitting in the fridge for about 1month. It takes up a fair bit of room so I am looking to reduce the storage space required.
As nearly all the yeast should have settled to the bottom of the stubbies I was thinking of pouring off most of the liquid above the yeast, stirring up the yeast in the bottom and transfering to a smaller vessel (under distilled water?)
Is this a good idea or bad?
Does anyone know of any small airtight containers that would do the job? (probably 100ml)
Thanks
Hoops


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## RobW

Somebody suggested baby food jars a while back, or you could use those small PET juice containers with the screw caps - I think they hold about 150 mL.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB

KenEasy said:


> Somebody suggested baby food jars a while back, or you could use those small PET juice containers with the screw caps - I think they hold about 150 mL.


 Baby food jars do not reseal well, I have tried them before and the yeast became infected. 

C&B
TDA


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## Hoops

KenEasy said:


> you could use those small PET juice containers with the screw caps - I think they hold about 150 mL.


 Thanks Ken
I know the ones you're talking about. They would be good for disposable ones but I would like to get something preferably in glass so they will last for a few years.


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## Corey

I haven't used them myself, but those little 285ml glass coke bottles might be good.


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## jgriffin

I find the WhiteLabs pitchable tube containers work well. They cost a bit to aquire though 

I think they are actually PET preforms - the bottle before it has been blown into shape. If you know anyone who works at a factory that packages things into PET bottles.....

Edit: yep, look just like em -? http://www.resilux.com/index2.html


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## Hoops

I found JasonY's post here
The schott bottles look perfect. I will give them a call to find out the damage$$.


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## Jase

Can you lay yeast starter stubbies on their side? To minimise space.

Jase


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## Hoops

They look good from resilux. Might call them too and find out how much.


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## jgriffin

Hoops - i only pasted link to resilux as it was the only piccie i could find.
I used to buy specialty bottles from a place in Silverwater in Sydney, there must be someone in brisbane that sells them.


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## Hoops

Well at least it gives me a starting point


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## sosman

I have some questions regarding the timing of a) decanting starter for storage, and B) pitching yeast from starter.

I have heard on various forums two general confliciting opinions for b atleast:

1. High krausen
2. Ferment out.

Any solid experience or authoritative comments on this? Certainly the high krausen saves a bit of time.


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## jgriffin

Go to oz.craftbrewer.org and download the radio show called "wyeast" or something similar. It has the guy from wyeast, and they ask him this. His answer is that you should let it ferment out, as at that point the yeast has stored up all the nutrients it needs to survive.


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## Hoops

Jase said:


> Can you lay yeast starter stubbies on their side? To minimise space.
> 
> Jase


 As long as the container is air tight and everything is steralised/sanitised properly I can't see why not.


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## nonicman

I've only started using liquid yeasts. 
WLP001 and WLP023 Burton Ale Yeast. Since I have two brews in fermenters I'll have ago at a starter as per Batz posts. With the Burton yeast, which seems to blow the airlock regularly during the primary fermentation, I havested some of the skimmings into stubbies and have brewed four brews after building the skimmings up to 1 litre starters. So far the results seem fine, but it does seem risky. 
I was wondering if anyone else has tried using the skimmings? The last brew I put down I used some of the skimmings from the fermenter that had a two day head start, and this seemed to kick the other brew into action. 
Only tried the using the skimmings because I read somewhere (I'll try to locate the source) that it was a traditional method that use to be used in Britain.


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## Jase

Sorry to bring this topic up again..... but, I am making up starters for future use. A 2007 Pilsen Lager (compliments of Linz, who received it from Doc, I think). Anyhow, do you make the starter up to the cooler lager temps, eg 10 degrees, or as you would an ale starter?

Cheers,
Jase


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## Jovial_Monk

You are growing yeast, that goes quicker at ale temps

Jovial Monk


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## Darren

Jovial_Monk said:


> You are growing yeast, that goes quicker at ale temps
> 
> Jovial Monk


 Yep but you want to bring it down slowly to lager temp (10 C) before pitching. If you pitch 20 C starter into 10 C wort it will be shocked and probably not start.
Darren


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## Jovial_Monk

Absolutely starter and yeast temps must be close

However, I would chill my lager wort to 20-23C, pitch my starter, then gradually cool the wort down to lager temps, 20C to 10C in 10-15 hours. The yeast is not fermenting at first and in any case will not produce any ale type esters in those first few hours. It will, however, adjust to your wort, multiply etc more quickly, thus rapidly lowering wort pH, using up all the oxygen aand beginning to chew on the wort sugars more rapidly than if pitched at 10C. This safeguards your wort from infection.

Jovial Monk


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## Jazman

Well when dave from wyeast visited he reconmend to pitch cooler then rise for your diactyl rest


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## Darren

Jovial_Monk said:


> Absolutely starter and yeast temps must be close
> 
> However, I would chill my lager wort to 20-23C, pitch my starter, then gradually cool the wort down to lager temps, 20C to 10C in 10-15 hours. The yeast is not fermenting at first and in any case will not produce any ale type esters in those first few hours. It will, however, adjust to your wort, multiply etc more quickly, thus rapidly lowering wort pH, using up all the oxygen aand beginning to chew on the wort sugars more rapidly than if pitched at 10C. This safeguards your wort from infection.
> 
> Jovial Monk


 I would strongly advise against using this as a protocol for making lagers. Not sure where you obtained this info from from JM!
Pitch a lager at 20-23 C and it will be finished before the beer reaches 10 C. Especially if a big starter as been made. Esters will be a big component of a lager pitched at these temps.
Most fridges will take at least 15 hours to cool from 23 C to lager temps. The additional heat that is generated from the primary fermentation will also make it harder to get to lager temps.
If you are worried about the yeast adjusing to a given wort, simply feed the starter with a small amount of the wort for a few hours prior to pitching.
Sanitation is the best safeguard against infection of wort. Most organisms will grow quicker at higher temps (20 C) including spoilage organisms.
Darren


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## Gulf Brewery

Hi Darren

Sorry, I sorta disagree with you both

Start your lagers around the 16 - 17 mark and reduce over the next 12 hours max to lager temps. 23+ is very hard to reduce to 10 - 12 when the yeast really gets going.

In the 1st few hours the yeast is in lag mode getting used to the work, then it goes into logarithmic growth mode where heat is generated and ethanol production starts. The main growth phase is going to depend on how much yeast you pitch and how good the wort is for them. 

I pitched a lager yeast at about 16C around 4 pm Saturday and by 10 am Sunday it was at high Krausen and down to 10 to 11C. If I tried to pull this down from 23C, I would have shocked the yeast.

Cheers
Pedro


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## Darren

Pedro said:


> Hi Darren
> 
> Sorry, I sorta disagree with you both
> 
> Start your lagers around the 16 - 17 mark and reduce over the next 12 hours max to lager temps. 23+ is very hard to reduce to 10 - 12 when the yeast really gets going.
> 
> In the 1st few hours the yeast is in lag mode getting used to the work, then it goes into logarithmic growth mode where heat is generated and ethanol production starts. The main growth phase is going to depend on how much yeast you pitch and how good the wort is for them.
> 
> I pitched a lager yeast at about 16C around 4 pm Saturday and by 10 am Sunday it was at high Krausen and down to 10 to 11C. If I tried to pull this down from 23C, I would have shocked the yeast.
> 
> Cheers
> Pedro


 Pedro,
If I were doing 23 litre batches I would agree with you but as my batch size is 65 litres cooling to 8-10 C in twelve hours is not all that easy. Without periodically taking the fermenter out and swirling it, the centre of the wort would stay 16 for 20 or more hours. I try to move 65 litres as little as I have to.
Also, if you were to pitch 16 degree C wort directly onto a cake from a previous batch it would start and finish very quickly! Especially low gravity worts (1.044 and down)
I prefer to pitch a big active starter (or onto a yeast cake) at lager ferment temp (10-12 C) that has been fed with and airated in the wort it is about to be pitched into. 
Really we don't disagree! Tom was suggesting to pitch at ale temps (23 C). Both you and I are saying to pitch at lager temps. After all 16 C is lager yeast temps albeit at the top of them


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## Gulf Brewery

Hey Darren

The batch I did on Saturday was 45 litres and it dropped OK. The garage temperature was 10 or 11 to start with which helped the fridge cope

Cheers
Pedro


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## Darren

Pedro,
How did you measure you wort temp?


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## Gulf Brewery

Darren

With one of my temperature sensors (0.5C accuracy). If I could get the right bit of stainless tubing, I would leave one in the wort all of the time

Pedro


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## Gulf Brewery

The Whitelabs site has some info on this as well. They say to pitch at 20C (68F) and then bring the termperature down when signs of fermentaton starts (CO2 evolution ). 

http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast_instructions.html

This method is fine as long as you have glycol chillers like professional breweries do. Pitching at 16/17 is a good midpoint in that I can get a rapid growth of the yeast and I am still able to get the temperature down in a reasonable time.

Cheers
Pedro


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## devilsaltarboy

Although I have never done a lager yet I pitch my wheat yeast between 13-15C and I find the best way to get the starter acclimatised is the morning of your brew cool the starter itself from 24C to 13C or whatever temp on the day of your brew. It has always worked for me and since then I have had no problems with temperature shocking yeast. This requires a little practise to ensure both are similar temperature and are at right temperature.


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## Darren

Sounds good to me DAB.
Pedro,
As Jazman said, Dave Lodgson from white labs suggested to pitch lower and warm to lager temps.
Apparently, this is standard practice in German breweries
D


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## Gulf Brewery

Darren said:


> Dave Lodgson from white labs suggested to pitch lower and warm to lager temps.


 Hi Darren

Now you are really confusing things. I think Dave L is from Wyeast B) 

Anyhow, I think that Wyeast and White Labs have differing opinions on the pitching temp for lagers. Like all things in brewing, it just depends.....

Pedro


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## Darren

Pedro said:


> Now you are really confusing things. I think Dave L is from Wyeast B)


     
Yep Pedro,
He is from wyeast. My silly!


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## sosman

Would someone clear this one up for me:

Why is cooling your starter from say 22 down to 14 any different from pitching at 22 and cooling primary down to 14 with respect to "yeast temperature shock"?


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## Darren

sosman said:


> Would someone clear this one up for me:
> 
> Why is cooling your starter from say 22 down to 14 any different from pitching at 22 and cooling primary down to 14 with respect to "yeast temperature shock"?


 Heya Sosman,
I will have a go. 
If you could cool your primary from 22 to 14 within a couple of hours there would be no problem doing this with respect to "yeast temperature shock".
Yeast generally donot like large temperature fluctuations. I think that it is agreed that a sudden drop (or rise) of 10 C or more sends the yeast into shock. This can result in either a transient complete shut-down of the cellular machinery.
But, I think you are asking why is it ok to cool a starter but not a fermenter!
It is simply that it is possible to actually cool a 1 litre starter from 22 down to 14.
The problem arises when you pitch your lager yeast into 22 degree wort. Lager yeasts are "trained" to ferment slowly at around 8-12 degree C. If you pitch at 23 their metabolic activity rises enormously and the ferment and divide like mad. At this temp they also spit out numerous fermentation by-products that are undesirable in a lager.
Unless you have some way of cooling your wort quickly from 22-14 degree C alot of fermentation will have occured in a very short time. Your beer will be full of phenolics.
For example, if you were to pitch a large lager starter into 23 litres of 1,044 wort at 22 degree C that beer would be finished within 24 hrs instead of the 6-7 days it should take. It would take about 12 hours to cool 23 litres to lager temps in a fridge.
Lagers should be slow and cool from start to finish!

If you could cool your primary from 22 to 14 within a couple of hours there would be no problem doing this with respect to "yeast temperature shock". 

Darren


----------



## devilsaltarboy

In the case of wheat beers the initial pitching temperature has a huge effect on the overall ester profile. My first wheat beer I pitched at 20C and cooled down to 15C quickly (6h). This was not enough to prevent the overwhelming banna esters. The temperature in the first six to twelve can influence the final flavour profile at least in wheat beers and Id be fairly confident in lagers as well. It would be worth someone doing an experiment on a split wort one pitched at 20C and cooled to 12C and the other pitched at 12C I would be confident there would be a substantial difference with the 12C brew being a lot cleaner. Correct me if Im off track here


----------



## Jovial_Monk

rule of 30

Sum of pitching and fermentation temperatures should equal 30
Pitch at 12C, ferment no warmer than 18C for nice subtle clove aroma

Jovial Monk


----------



## Hoops

I am in the process of starting my WLP940 Mexican Lager Yeast and was thinking of a different way of pitching the yeast.
I have just finished boiling my 1.5-2L of wort and have put it in the fridge to cool. I was planning to pitch the yeast tomorrow morning but rather than warming the yeast and starter to room temp, is there any disadvantage to adding the cold yeast to the cold starter then letting it warm to room temp. I can only see this as an advantage as there will be no thermal shock as the yeast and wort are at the exact same temp, and the starter will gradually warm to room temp preventing any shock.
Any ideas????

Hoops


----------



## Gulf Brewery

Hoops

No hassles at all doing this. As long as they are the same temperature, they are happy little vegemites (well, after they die they become vegemite). 

Pedro

edit - some additional info
Still make sure that you have an active starter before you pitch it though


----------



## jgriffin

I'm about to get some WhiteLabs Cider yeast, and as i don't want Malt in my cider, i'm curios to hear thoughts on how to cultivate it.

I have a few cheapo kits that i was given, one though was to pitch it into the kit brew, and take the yeast off the trub, wash with sterilised water, and ditch the beer.

Thoughts?


----------



## Bobby

dilute apple juice to 1040 and use that perhaps?


----------



## jgriffin

But i don't think apple juice has all the nutrients in it that yeast need to multiply healthily.

I'm actually going to use it for Ginger beer as well.


----------



## Darren

jgriffin said:


> But i don't think apple juice has all the nutrients in it that yeast need to multiply healthily.
> 
> I'm actually going to use it for Ginger beer as well.


 Howdy,
Something else to consider apple juice also contains preservatives. They yeast will not like preservatives.
Darren


----------



## Slight

This may sound like a stupid question (I've had a few lately) but..

What happens when you over dilute the starter?

I added a 125ml packet to one litre of light DME wort for 24 hours then diluted it into 3 litres of wort. In the past (with coopers yeast) I've found it difficult to know when the yeast has grown enough to pitch/dilute (I never see any evidence of high kraussen. No foam)

Now I have three 1 litre bottles of wort diluted starter that haven't done anything for the last few hours.


----------



## jgriffin

Well by diluting the wort, you end up with 1/3 of the potential yeast.

You should make your starters with an OG of around 1.040 - which is about 110g of DME per litre of water.
If you do that, you should definately end up with enough yeast.


----------



## Slight

I followed the ratios explained at the start of the thread pretty closely. 

But, the amount of yeast compared to the amount of DME in the bottles is different. Is it possible that there is too much DME compared to yeast? 

I'm thinking that a large amount of alcohol will be created that could kill off the small amount yeast.


----------



## Backlane Brewery

Hmm, wish I'd read this thread earlier.
Slight gave me a bottle of Irish ale yeast & one of Belgian wit a couple of weeks back.
In line with my resolution to try new things, decided the "Grey Cat" wheat beer should be made with the wit. Took it out of the fridge yesterday morning, let it come to room temp & added a bit of sugar. Gave it a shake then left it alone for a couple of hours. When I got to the brewery I put the whole bottle in a jug with a litre of warm water & about 50g of light DME, gave it a good whisk & then let it sit for a about half an hour while I sorted out the 25l demijohn, which was a bugger to clean.
Made up the MSB Summer Wheat to 10.5l, then pitched the starter in and gave the whole thing a good shake, though think the wort was pretty well aerated already. Starter didn't look like it was up to much in the jug, and when I left an hour or so later there was hardly any head/krausen to be seen.
Will check it again ASAP, but am worried I may have underfed the yeast beforehand. The MSB kit comes with 10g of yeast, obviously there is a lot of fermenting to be done. I had thought making up a litre of good starter would be OK, but maybe not. In hindsight I should have started a day earlier & added much more DME.
Also concerned about the huge headspace in the demijohn- maybe I need a 15l as well as 10 & 25.
And this is BEFORE I got the nagging feeling I used the ale yeast, not the wit anyway!


----------



## johnno

Hi BLB,
You should try and start the yeast up and pitch it when it is at high krausen. 
Here is a 1056 that i have had in the fridge since April.
I started this last Monday morning.
This is what it looked like last night.


----------



## johnno

And here is a pic of it right now.
I will be pitching this in the next few hours. I am mashing right now,making a LCPA clone.

cheers


----------



## Backlane Brewery

Thanks Johnno.
The colour of my starter was similar, had a lot less foam (like, none) just a scattering of bubbles.
Before I jugged it I was sure it was "awake" as I didn't have an airlock on it and so had to burp the bottle a couple of times. Guess that's a good sign.


----------



## kungy

Backlane Brewery said:


> The MSB kit comes with 10g of yeast, obviously there is a lot of fermenting to be done. I had thought making up a litre of good starter would be OK, but maybe not. In hindsight I should have started a day earlier & added much more DME.


 Not a big deal, its not that the MSB cans have a lot of fermenting to be done, just that MS have large sachets of yeast. 

Just a point of differentiation for MS. Some people have pointed out that it may be in fact too much yeast,and in warm temperatures lead to a unsuitable and large jump in fermenting temp for newbies.

Live and Learn.

Cheers

Will


----------



## Backlane Brewery

Checked the demijohn last night- you want foam? you want RICH CREAMY FOAM ABOUT AN INCH THICK?? 
Then look at this (crappy Nokia-cam) photo.
Phew!


----------



## Slight

Good to see it's going strong. I thought it may have cooked when I took it for the drive in to the city.


Batz, where can I get some of those plastic bottles for storing yeast? At the moment I'm using soft drink bottles which are quite poor.


----------



## Batz

I don't know where you could buy them Slight , a friend gets them for me   

Batz


----------



## Weizguy

I don't wanna B a Weizguy, but can your friend tell us how to obtain them?
There could be a lot of interest.
I am a farmer 2!
Sethule


----------



## Backlane Brewery

No, Slight, not cooked AT ALL. Racked this big fat brew into secondary today..mmm, and it was fine coming thru the siphon, all green & fiesty.
Also racked 10l of all-juice cider. And started a Morgans kit. New names for new brews:
MSB Sumer Wheat & wit yeast- "Grey Cat"
All juice- "Special Mince" (do not confuse with "Supreme Gravy". Or "Donkey Poison")
Morgan's- "Maurice"


----------



## cubbie

Batz said:


> OK
> After this, and before the activity has stopped completely , prepare again with the sterilizer and have bottles ready , you can use subbies here
> 
> Bottle this living yeast culture
> 
> Each of these bottles you store in a cold fridge , when ready to pitch, return them to room temperture , again feed with cooled DME , once working add to your brew as nomally you would add yeast
> 
> Oh.. allow a couple of days to get the yeast off before doing a brew , this will ensure it's well alive and ready
> 
> I get several bottles , works out at around $2 per brew , then you can use yeast cakes , I don't do this but I am sure someone will explane how.
> 
> I hope this is of some help to brewers new to liquid yeasts
> 
> Cheers batz


When you step it up and bottle the culture, do you just pour off the suspended yeast or rouse the culture first getting some of the yeast that has settled?

When you feed your yeast before pitching do you transfer it back to a bigger bottle (eg 2L) and how much DME/water do you use to feed. Do you end up with a 1.5L starter?

And how does the yeast culture effect the gravity and flavour of the beer, do you account for volume of liquid in your mesurements?

Cheers,

cubbie


----------



## sluggerdog

In the original insturctions that Batz has posted how big should each starter bottle be? i.e. how much liquid do you put in each to pitch?

Cheers


----------



## JasonY

If you mean the ones you store in the fridge then as small as you like. I use 375ml stubbies which I half fill. These are then used to step up for the next brew to 1 - 2L. You could pitch them direct but you would be waiting a while for them to take off and risk infections getting in.

If I could get a good supply of 100 - 200ml bottles I would be using them to save space.


----------



## sluggerdog

Thanks Jason. Out of the 2-3 litres you orignally make you can get a hell of a lot of starters correct? (20-30 if you were really keen?)


So with each bottle you step up and then pitch about 1-2 litres into the fermenter?


ALSO Could I make my starters now even though I won't be brewing for about another week (when the fridge is empty again).
This wouldn't be a problem right? I would be just making my starters and using them later hey?


----------



## Batz

I make up 6 bottles , and you will need to do it now if your going to use it to brew in a week.

Batz


----------



## sluggerdog

Thanks Batz, Will get started later today

Great Information and description!


----------



## cubbie

I think i found some answers to some of my questions above.

Does this method sound valid as an alternative to that listed by Batz.

I was going to get the yeast going same as Batz detailed however rather than stepping the starter up, I was planning to pour off about 800-1000 mills of my 1.5 litre starter into my wort and then storing the remaining yeast in the fridge. then each time I need to use it start it up again to the 1.5 litre level and pitch 800-1000 mills. I plan to do this about 5-6 times?

Any comments would be great.


----------



## dicko

Hi cubbie,

Have a read of the method that Grumpy's advise on their site for using liqiud yeasts.

http://www.grumpys.com.au/m1.php3?manualid=9

It is similar to what you just mentioned and it is faily convenient.
I used to do them that way until Batz posted his method.
Both work and both have advantages over each other.
If you have fridge space then the Batz method is good and it gives you yeasts to be able to swap with others.
If space is a problem then the Grump's method is good.

Cheers


----------



## sluggerdog

Hi All,

Yesterday I pitched my first liquid yeast following Batz instructions. I woke up this morning (_18 hours later_) and I have found activity. (see pic below... correct me if I am wrong please).


Now is it the time to _step-up_ the mixture by boiling 1.5 litres of water and disolving 100 grams of dried malt into it as I did yesterday?

Then once this is cooled, add it to the bottle and let it sit over night again.

Then when tomorrow comes, I will have more activity and it will be time to bottle so I pour the mixture evenly into little bottles, label and wack them in the fridge.

*QUESTIONS:* Should I be shaking the bottle before pouring the mixture into the little bottles I have so the yeast within is evenly distributed?

I have gone out and bought 12 X 350ml water bottles which I will have drunk by then and sterilized. Can I use up to the 12 bottles or is it recommended to stay around 6.

When I am ready to pitch my first yeast, I take it out of the fridge and let it warm to room temperature, boil 1.5 litres of water and dissolve DME into it, cool and then add together with the yeast cultured bottle from the fridge. Then I pitch this ontop of my wort. (correct?)



Thanks, I just wanted to note what I am about to do and check to see if I have missed out on anything. Comments Appreciated.


----------



## Duff

> QUESTIONS: Should I be shaking the bottle before pouring the mixture into the little bottles I have so the yeast within is evenly distributed?
> 
> I have gone out and bought 12 X 350ml water bottles which I will have drunk by then and sterilized. Can I use up to the 12 bottles or is it recommended to stay around 6.
> 
> When I am ready to pitch my first yeast, I take it out of the fridge and let it warm to room temperature, boil 1.5 litres of water and dissolve DME into it, cool and then add together with the yeast cultured bottle from the fridge. Then I pitch this ontop of my wort. (correct?)




That's how I'm doing mine sluggerdog.

After the second addition of DME is added (100gms/1L) it sits for 48 hours, before giving it a good shake and seperating into your bottles. I'm using longnecks, so they are then capped and put in the fridge. I was told 3 days before brewing to take it out of the fridge and bring it back to room temperature before adding more DME to restart, but I've found that high krausen is around the second day which is when I would like to pitch. I guess though it is temperature related.

Cheers.


----------



## JasonY

Slugger, if you are going to bottle these and fridge them for later I would advise that you wait until it is fermented out otherwise you will have 6 hand grenades in your fridge! (if you are using lager yeast you will definately be in strife). Airlocks on your pet bottle are good for this.

Before bottling shake (gently!) to distrubute the yeast.


----------



## sluggerdog

Thanks will get onto steping up the mixture after lunch.

Jason - How long approx will it take for the yeast to ferment out so I can then place the bottles in the fridge? I will have added 200 grams of DME and 2.5 litres of water.. a few days or more?


I am using a lager yeast : German Lager Yeast WLP830.

Cheers


----------



## JasonY

yer probably 3 - 5 days. You can bottle a bit early and just crack the lids every day for a few days to make sure they are not gassing up too much. Lagers as you know can keep going at cold temps so perhaps crack them periodically if you are worried it may still be fermenting a couple of weeks later


----------



## sluggerdog

NO worries, will do. Thanks for the info!


----------



## sluggerdog

Woke up today after stepping up the mixture yesterday to find little or no kraeusen.

Should I have a kraeusen by now? I did have one the first day before I stepped up the mixture but since adding the second amoutn of dme/water I have nothing.

I do however have a yeast slurry at the bottom of the bottle.

Just wanting to make sure nothing is going wrong at the moment.

Attached is a photo of the bottle at the moment.

Thanks


----------



## Gulf Brewery

Sluggerdog

Just give the bottle a shake very so often and get the yeast back in suspension. It will take off soon enough. The other option is that it has already fermented it out, especially if it is in a warm place.

Cheers
Pedro


----------



## sluggerdog

So shaking is ok?

It is sitting in an area which is about at 28-30C so it might have fermented out.
I'll give it a little shake and see what happens in a few hours. If it doesn't change does this mean I can split it up into bottles and store in the fridge now?

Thankyou


----------



## cubbie

before you pitch should you, give the starter a little shake to resuspend the yeast? Also do you need to wait for the krausen to subside before pitching?


----------



## sluggerdog

After giving my mixture a shake this morning I have had no change since (same as pic above) so I am guessing it is finished and I can divide it up.

The yeast wouldn't have died would it? I hope not.


----------



## Gulf Brewery

Sluggerdog

Yeast are fairly hardy little fellas. They go dormant fairly easily if it is cold and only die if they are frozen or boiled. Keep them around 20C for a starter and they are happy.

Cheers
Pedro


----------



## sluggerdog

Thanks Pedro, it's always over-worry when trying new things.

I will divide the batch into about 6-10 bottles tomorrow and then try using liquid yeast for the first time early next week. I will see what happens then.

Thanks for the help!


----------



## Gulf Brewery

Sluggerdog

When you put them in the fridge, just make sure that they aren't sitting against a fridge wall otherwise they may freeze and die. I sit mine in the vege drawer of the beer fridge. 

Cheers
Pedro


----------



## sluggerdog

Ok thanks good idea. How would my fermenting fridge do? it sits on about 10-12C or if that is too hot I will stick them in the keg fridge, maybe in the door as they have the least chance of freezing there.


----------



## Gulf Brewery

I prefer to keep them a bit cooler, it makes sure they stay dormant, which is what you want for storage. 4C is the ideal temperature.


----------



## cubbie

I pitched my liquid yeast into a starter this morning and 12hrs later there is no action (I don't think I has missed it all.) I am going for a wyeast 1028 which I smacked Sat arvo and was swollen by sunday night. Didn't get a chance to pitch into starter until this morn (monday). The smackpac and starter have been sitting at around 24c pretty much the whole time. I made the starter with about 1/2 a cup of dme and 1.5 L of boiling water which I cooled before adding the yeast. When I look at the starter it would appear that the yeast has fallen out of suspension already. I have given it an extra shake about 9 hours after pitching.

I'ts my first liquid so lets hope I have not stuffed it up!

Can anyone spot a fault in my methods.


----------



## Gulf Brewery

Cubbie

Is there any sign of a krausen ring around the top of the wort? I wouldn't worry about it yet, just keep shaking it as often as you can. When I do a starter like that, I shake it every time I walk past it. 

Cheers
Pedro


----------



## cubbie

Pedro,

No sign of krausen, the yeast seems to settle out very quickly so I will keep shaking the bottle.

Just gave it a swirl then and the airlock bubbled a little.


----------



## Thunderlips

Batz,

I've recently got hold of some liquid yeast, American Ale 1056, and have a question. Instead of making a starter like your example, can you just mix 1.5L of water with some DME and the yeast, shake like hell, and then seperate into little bottles, say of 250ml, and then stick in the fridge for a starter later on?
Or is the whole reason of making a starter like your example so that the yeasties can grow and doing it like I have mentioned leave you with too little yeast and result in underpitching?


----------



## Ross

Thunder,

You can split your starter like that if you want - when you bring your smaller starters out later on to use, just build upto 750 ml for pitching with some more dme solution...


----------



## Thunderlips

> You can split your starter like that if you want - when you bring your smaller starters out later on to use, just build upto 750 ml for pitching with some more dme solution...



Thanks Ross.
And in that bottle with the extra 750ml I should let it go for a couple of days so that it gets going, then pitch?
Sounds easy enough even for me


----------



## Gout

If you store the yeast in a sweet wort (eg dont let it ferment out before storage) make sure you open up the bottles often as they will slowly ferment and build up gas... I have been close to a mess back "in the day"


----------



## Ross

Thunderlips said:


> Thanks Ross.
> And in that bottle with the extra 750ml I should let it go for a couple of days so that it gets going, then pitch?
> Sounds easy enough even for me
> [post="51619"][/post]​



I just bring out of fridge for 24 hours & as it starts to fire add to some more wort. Usually ready for pitching the following day - Plastic bottles are great for storage as a simple squeeze will let you know how things are progressing...


----------



## Curry

Quick question.

I am about to have my first go at Wyeast (3944) and I want to use a starter. I have no plans to keep any yeast for further brewing as I want to move onto other strains. My question is what is the best ingredient volumes to use for a starter that I am only going to use once. I read that Batz recommends 1.5lt water and 1/3 cup of DME - is this too much for a one off starter?

Cheers

Curry


----------



## pint of lager

What strength of wort to use as a starter. 
There are two schools, one says around og 1.030-1.040 is the best for making yeast. Another school is that the starter wort should be similar in strength to the beer that it is being trained into, so whatever og your expected brewed wort is going to be. My brewing is an amalgamtaion of both these schools of thought.

I use starter og 1.040 wort which is easy to make up, it is 100gms DME in 1 litre of water.


----------



## Curry

Another question if I could

Say if I make up a wort for starting purposes and it doesn't come to OG that I want, can I add water to dilute or add raw DME to increase or do I need to restart the whole procedure?

Curry


----------



## Gulf Brewery

POL says about the SG of the starter I aim for around 1.040. Wyeast in their Microbrewery info say make your starter of a lower colour and SG than your main beer. They also say the starter should not be over 10.5P which is about 1.042.

Curry, you can add water and DME as you like to get it right, as long as it is sterile.

Cheers
Pedro


----------



## KillerRx4

Slightly off topic but anyway....

I smacked a 1056 last night at around 8pm then put it in the cupboard above my monitor (read warm place)

Just pulled it out now (22 hours later) & the thing looks & feels like its about to literally burst.

Has anyone ever had 1 split open before & how long do I have to make a starter before a imminent disatser?


----------



## Ross

KillerRx4 said:


> Slightly off topic but anyway....
> 
> I smacked a 1056 last night at around 8pm then put it in the cupboard above my monitor (read warm place)
> 
> Just pulled it out now (22 hours later) & the thing looks & feels like its about to literally burst.
> 
> Has anyone ever had 1 split open before & how long do I have to make a starter before a imminent disatser?
> [post="61493"][/post]​



Never known one split, but time to cut open & add to your starter - assuming you're masking one....


----------



## Jovial_Monk

Or stick it in the fridge until you are ready to make that starter

Jovial Monk


----------



## Stoodoo

Quick qestion guys. I've mixed up my dme with water and am boiling it atm, but I've niticed that there seems to be some "sediment" in the wort mix after boiling for a while. I have strained this and boiled the starter a bit more, only to see more of this "sediment" stuff appear. What is it? and will it affect my yeast, and/or starter?

Cheers


----------



## Steve

Stoodoo - ive often wondered what this is.....it doesnt harm it....all mine have been fine.


----------



## Jim - Perth

I've read somewhere, may even have been in Palmer or on the packet, that you should pour in the starter wort including the sediment.


----------



## pint of lager

This is "hot break" material. Upon swift chilling, you see more break appear, which is "cold break."

For starters, I add it all into the mini fermenter, as some break material is used as nutrients for yeast propogation, primarily cold break.


----------



## BottleBitch

Once I notice that the pack starts to swell up just a bit, I transfer it to a my yeast starter vessel with a DME and hop mix similar to the wort i will be pitiching it into, I do this because the yeast dont not like being under any top pressure, when they are in this growth stage. it just means happier yeast and better beer.


----------



## cubbie

Herbstoffe said:


> Once I notice that the pack starts to swell up just a bit, I transfer it to a my yeast starter vessel with a DME and hop mix similar to the wort i will be pitiching it into, I do this because the yeast dont not like being under any top pressure, when they are in this growth stage. it just means happier yeast and better beer.




Nothing like dragging up an oldie (esp when i look up the thread and see my old questions - of course I am an expert now).

Might try your suggestion next time I brew (and that may be a while since i am heading over seas!!). However often you find the pack never swells until you turn your back! Sneaky buggers.


----------



## Quintrex

Gout said:


> Guys in melb, we should start a Yeast Exchange
> 
> if you split your pack into 5 starters then there is a heap of yeast to use.
> i have 3 lagers, 2 ales, 1 wheat, i want a kolsh and a few more but i just dont use them enough esp ones like wheat.
> 
> ohhh a pils would be good also, curently i use my danish lager yeast.
> Might make a munich with my munich yeast next!
> 
> so many beers to brew, not enought time!


 Great Idea, I would be keen for that.
I'm desperate for a good saison yeast. would also be keen to hear from anyone who managed to grab the VSS rogue pacman yeast. Is it good???
I have 4 lots of wyeast starters in good condition.
Cheers
Q
ps. first post


----------



## DJR

I got Rogue pacman, it's OK i guess, i have a couple of cultures that perform better in what i brew but i'm probably a bit off what it does best. Altbier and pseudo-lagers are probably do-able. I found it a bit dry with no real character, probably what you want for the pseudo-lager styles.


----------



## ArnieW

Since discovering the Mr Malty yeast calculator, I've been able to time my yeast starters to perfection. To do this I've started with the calculator itself, used advice (I think on the same web site) to wait 12-18 hours between steps, and then worked with stepping ratios of roughly 10:1 for ales, and 5:1 for lagers.

This means a bit of working backwards before brew day to get the timing right. I have been doing this scratching about on a bit of paper, but thought that an exel spreadsheet might be even easier.

So I quickly knocked one up and have attached it to this beer mail. Please use it if it seems useful. :chug: 

cheers, Arnie

View attachment Yeast_timing_calculator.xls


----------



## reveler

I bought some W3068 and reading the instructions it says I should just smack it a 3 or so hours before pitching it into the wort.

However reading here leads me to believe a starter would be useful. So my question is what is the benefit of a starter when using liquid yeast. I don't want a collection of yeasts at the moment as the better half would get angry if I kept them in the fridge


----------



## Stuster

If you make a starter, essentially you are growing yeast. You end up with a great number of yeast cells. If you don't, you may be underpitching. This can lead to a long lag period before fermentation starts in which contamination can occur. Underpitching can also give you a slower ferment that does not attenuate properly. However, it depends on how many litres you are doing and what gravity. One way to run it is to do a low gravity beer (say 1040) as your first beer with that yeast and not worry about a starter. Even if you don't want loads of yeast in the fridge, I'd definitely do a number of beers with that yeast. You can take a cup of yeast or so from the slurry at the bottom of the first batch and use it for a second beer, etc etc. What do you think?


----------



## chris.taylor.98

Hey Reveler,

I used to have problems with yeast storage too until I went to slants.

They are a bit more work, but you will end up with an almost indefinite supply, and it should be better quality then the yeast you store from previous fermentations.

Check out the links below for more details:

http://hbd.org/brewery/library/YstCult.html

http://scott-hamilton.blogspot.com/2006/11...st-storage.html


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Thank god for this thread.
I was going to give up on liquid yeasts because of the cost! :excl: 

Good work batz and others.

By the way, i will soon have a few stubbies of 3463 Forbidden Fruit if anyone in the Hills district/area would like to do a swap.

Cheers
DK


:super:


----------



## schubidubi

Thanks for this post.

I gave it a go to farm my yeast after making my first partial Hefeweizen. I followed the instructions and ended up with a milky liquid in my 6 Vials.
But looking into them this morning I only found a little sediment on the bottom. I hope this is right. It does not look like the yeast when I first bought it. There was much more sediment in it. Maybe I should fill the 6 Vials into 3?


----------



## Weizguy

Just leave it, for goodness' sake.

There's prob enough yeast in each vial to kick off a starter, and you may introduce contamination by opening and combining the vials.

It will all be good!

Seth out


----------



## Brewer_010

To add to this, I'm not sure if a large amount in a stubbie is a good idea anyway in case of continued fermentation (you'll end up with exploding yeast bottles). 
My cultures usually have around 2-5mm worth of sediment at the bottom of each stubbie. These kick off pretty smartly with a stepped-up starter solution a few days before pitching.
Just chill, they'll be fine.


----------



## amita

hi All,
I am about to start my Hoegaarden( partial) and will be using Wyeast belgian wit 3944.
I want to make a starter and harvest as described in this (lenghty) topic but I can only find the info that people use DME.
I have some liquid wheat malt that I would like to use,
question:
can I use the LWM for my starter and how much do I use per liter of water, same as DME??100 ml to 1 liter of water.

I plan to add the LWM to boiling water and boil for 10 to sterilise and proceed according to the above instructions.
can anybody help me out here or should I go to the HBS and get some DME?

thanks, amita


----------



## Ross

amita said:


> hi All,
> I am about to start my Hoegaarden( partial) and will be using Wyeast belgian wit 3944.
> I want to make a starter and harvest as described in this (lenghty) topic but I can only find the info that people use DME.
> I have some liquid wheat malt that I would like to use,
> question:
> can I use the LWM for my starter and how much do I use per liter of water, same as DME??100 ml to 1 liter of water.
> 
> I plan to add the LWM to boiling water and boil for 10 to sterilise and proceed according to the above instructions.
> can anybody help me out here or should I go to the HBS and get some DME?
> 
> thanks, amita



LME contains 20% water, so in theory just add 20% more eg 120ml. Either way it will make little difference.
No need to go shooting off to the HBS  

cheers Ross


----------



## amita

Ross said:


> LME contains 20% water, so in theory just add 20% more eg 120ml. Either way it will make little difference.
> No need to go shooting off to the HBS
> 
> cheers Ross



thanks Ross, ; will put the kettle on and get it on the way  
cheers amita


----------



## june

Oh,this looks not bad!I say ,yeah,it's very well!


----------



## bierbaron

g,day guys.
im new to liquid yeast so, im just wondering what sort of activity i should see in a starter as the past few i have made havent foamed up that much. i split my packs into 4-5 vials and use one of those plus some water and sugar to make up 100-200 ml of liquid. i make the starter 2-3 days ahead of the brewday.

the last two batches i did didnt see much action so i dumped some packet yeast to kick them off.

so the question is, will a starter show normal signs of fermentation? am i doing something wrong????


----------



## Stuster

bierbaron said:


> g,day guys.
> im new to liquid yeast so, im just wondering what sort of activity i should see in a starter as the past few i have made havent foamed up that much. i split my packs into 4-5 vials and use one of those plus some water and sugar to make up 100-200 ml of liquid. i make the starter 2-3 days ahead of the brewday.
> 
> the last two batches i did didnt see much action so i dumped some packet yeast to kick them off.
> 
> so the question is, will a starter show normal signs of fermentation? am i doing something wrong????



A starter should show sign of normal fermentation, foaming, bubbles etc. Sounds like you might not have used malt. Did you use some malt, or just sugar? Growing little organisms need more than sugar (whatever my kids say). And did you boil up the starter with the malt and then cool it down, then add the yeast? If you are splitting up your pack like this, you'll probably be best to start with a 1L of starter. The ratio is 100g malt extract to 1L water. Boil for 15 minutes, cool quickly, then pitch yeast. 1L will do, but optimally for a 23L batch you might need a 2L starter, so once the first starter is going you can step it up to 2L (depends on the gravity of course).


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

bierbaron said:


> g,day guys.
> im new to liquid yeast so, im just wondering what sort of activity i should see in a starter as the past few i have made havent foamed up that much. i split my packs into 4-5 vials and use one of those plus some water and sugar to make up 100-200 ml of liquid. i make the starter 2-3 days ahead of the brewday.
> 
> the last two batches i did didnt see much action so i dumped some packet yeast to kick them off.
> 
> so the question is, will a starter show normal signs of fermentation? am i doing something wrong????


Sugar ? There is nothing in sugar in the way of nutrients for the yeast to increase its bio mass which is what you are aiming to do.If you are going to split the packs you should be building your starters with malt derived wort.Adding a Wyeast nutrient also aids in the building of a healthy starter.You would want more than 200ml of starter for a 20 L brew.I would suggest about 2 L of healthy viable yeast.I not unusual to see no action taking place but if you have set your starter up well it will be working.PM me and I will help you out.Got to go for dinner!
GB


----------



## Darren

Hey bier baron,

Just for starters, what part of the "smack pack" are you saving? or are you using Whitelabs vials?

cheers


Darren

EDIT: Oh shit, just noticed the thread was 8 pages long


----------



## bierbaron

ok, i use wyeast, so i split the yeast up (unsmacked) and then put the nutrient from the little plastic package into seperate vials as well. i usually use sugar, bit of water and some of the nutrient and yeast of course.
i guess my ratios are way off. will that have an impact?
but i thought because i am using a smaller amount of yeast (25-30 ml) i needed to make a small starter and build it up gradually??
anyways, i will get some DME tonight and try the 100g to i litre ratio.

cheers :beer:


----------



## therook

bierbaron said:


> ok, i use wyeast, so i split the yeast up (unsmacked) and then put the nutrient from the little plastic package into seperate vials as well. i usually use sugar, bit of water and some of the nutrient and yeast of course.
> i guess my ratios are way off. will that have an impact?
> but i thought because i am using a smaller amount of yeast (25-30 ml) i needed to make a small starter and build it up gradually??
> anyways, i will get some DME tonight and try the 100g to i litre ratio.
> 
> cheers :beer:



bierbaron,

Have a look at this excellent post by Batz.

LINK

Rook


----------



## Screwtop

Using the search function can be a handy thing.


----------



## Stuster

therook said:


> bierbaron,
> 
> Have a look at this excellent post by Batz.
> 
> LINK
> 
> Rook



That one's a long thread I think, which Batz started a while ago. Wonder if there have been any recent replies to it.  

Bierbaron, yes you can start small. There should be enough in there to start with a 500ml starter though (50g DME) and step it up from there. If it's yeast you've kept for a while, the 200ml starter first off would be better.


----------



## brettprevans

I never really got the 'step up' method. Does chucking the yeast into a 1L starter of wort shock it? if not why start at 500ml then step up to 1L then 2L. why not just go the whole hog?


----------



## bierbaron

Stuster said:


> That one's a long thread I think, which Batz started a while ago. Wonder if there have been any recent replies to it.
> 
> Bierbaron, yes you can start small. There should be enough in there to start with a 500ml starter though (50g DME) and step it up from there. If it's yeast you've kept for a while, the 200ml starter first off would be better.



I did read batz's guide once or twice and i thought it didnt exactly apply to what i was trying to do? the yeast isnt that old.(a few months?)
what i was trying to say earlier, if i put too many fermentables in the starter, will it inhibit the yeast from starting their cycle? i think that might be the problem.

oh yea sorry bout bein a pain in the arse


----------



## Stuster

CM, the issue is not that it'll be a problem for the yeast. They'll grow whatever size medium you put them into. The issue is other wee beasties that will be present whatever you do. The bigger the starter, the ratio of yeast to bacteria etc will be higher. Here are a couple of quotes from learned members of the forum  that explain it better than I could.



Gulf Brewery said:


> The first is stepping up the wort. One of the main reasons is so that the yeast will outnumber the bacteria in the wort and will dominate. If you pitch x amount of yeast into 50ml vs the same amount into 1 litres, then in 50ml they will a lerger percentage of the organisms in the beer.
> 
> The second is re-using yeast. Yeast will mutate over successive generations and also the bacterial and wild yeast count will increase over time. Its safer to replace the yeast after a few generations rather than risk infection and/or off flavours.
> 
> Cheers
> Pedro






pint of lager said:


> Sterile means there are no bacteria, wild yeasts or spores. This is achieved by putting the sample in a pressure cooker or autoclave. Boiling does not kill all spores.
> 
> For making up starters, you can boil wort for 20-30 minutes, cool, and use straight away.
> 
> Also, bacteria and wild yeasts muliply at about 10 times that of our brewing yeast. So if you start off with a small infection and a small amount of yeast, the unwanted yeast or bacteria quickly multiply to levels that are detectable in our beers.
> 
> Brewing yeast does change the conditions to be unfavourable to bacteria. pH decreases, alcohol is produced and the wort becomes anearobic (no oxygen.) All of these limit the growth of some sorts of bacteria. Be aware that after fermentation, there is alcohol and long chain sugars in your beers, both of which are high energy sources to some bacteria.




Too many fermentables will inhibit growth. That's why you are aiming for a starter wort gravity of 1030-1040 which the 100g:1L ratio should give you. No malt will mean no or little healthy growth as the nutrients the yeast need for growth will not be present.


----------



## brettprevans

ahhhhhh ic said the blind brewer. I knew about the wort gravity. but hadnt read anything anour the bacteria. makes sense. kool. Will use step up method. cherrs Stuster


----------



## Stuster

CM, just to clarify, if you are using a whole pack of yeast, starting it up in 2L of starter wort is fine. But if you were splitting the yeast like bierbaron, using old yeast, or starting from a slant or a small amount of yeast, stepping up is very important.


----------



## Sammus

citymorgue2 said:


> I never really got the 'step up' method. Does chucking the yeast into a 1L starter of wort shock it? if not why start at 500ml then step up to 1L then 2L. why not just go the whole hog?



Something to do with the amount of available food for the yeast compared to the number of yeast. If you have SFA yeast cells swimming in litres and litres of nutritious wort, they get lazy. Where as if you have heaps of yeast in not much wort, they'll all fighting for a bit. Apparently the latter one is better for reproduction, to an extent...I think :unsure: lol


----------



## Bribie G

BUMP

Eagerly awaiting the arrival of my Wyeast West Yorkshire Bitter and other bits from Ross to do a partial mash Penn-9 bitter. As I mentioned on a previous thread I have six urine sample bottles I bought from the chemist (new not used :lol: ) and intend to run off six batches, clingwrap them and store them in the fridge for subsequent brews. Would I be best to:


a. Run up a big starter of the Wyeast using wort stepping, pitch half into my Penn-9 and split the rest among the bottles (after washing with sterilised water etc etc)
b. Do a 'normal' starter, pitch it and derive my six samples from the trub left at the end of the first brew?
I'm tending to 'b' but would like to get as much usage out of my twelve bucks as possible. 

PS I'm not a total tightarse, for example I regularly use my Notto yeast three times but regularly reorder from Ross as I appreciate that I don't want to push my luck.


----------



## mckenry

BribieG said:


> BUMP
> 
> Eagerly awaiting the arrival of my Wyeast West Yorkshire Bitter and other bits from Ross to do a partial mash Penn-9 bitter. As I mentioned on a previous thread I have six urine sample bottles I bought from the chemist (new not used :lol: ) and intend to run off six batches, clingwrap them and store them in the fridge for subsequent brews. Would I be best to:
> 
> 
> a. Run up a big starter of the Wyeast using wort stepping, pitch half into my Penn-9 and split the rest among the bottles (after washing with sterilised water etc etc)
> b. Do a 'normal' starter, pitch it and derive my six samples from the trub left at the end of the first brew?
> I'm tending to 'b' but would like to get as much usage out of my twelve bucks as possible.


I do A. I like to split a new packet 4 ways and therefore make 5 batches from the original strain. Good value & no washing yeast etc etc.


----------



## buttersd70

Being a tight arse has nothing to do with wanting t save this one, bribie. Who knows when it will be on offer again? I started slanting specifically because of this yeast  

My thought would be to go with a combo of your options. Half the pack into a starter and then pitched, the other half of the pack split into the jars. That way, you have a couple of gen 0 instead of only 1. And save the trub for splitting as well.


----------



## cdbrown

OK - smacked a Dec 08 wyeast 3068 last night after bringing it up to around 20C. Left overnight and the pack was nice and puffy when I checked it this morning before heading to work. I'd like to get some small starters going so want to check the procedure to ensure I have it right. Followed the instructions on the first page (wish the pics were still there) - is this still the best way?

Boil up 150g of LDME in 1.5L water for 15mins. Chill it down to 20C and then put it in a sterilised container. Pour in the contents of the smacked pack. Cap and shake.

So eventually it will kick off again - does it matter when the step up occurs? I'll be making the starter tonight so based on all the brews so far, yeast will be very active by the following morning, will it be OK to wait until the evening before stepping up, should I wait longer?

It says to step up with another 1.5L wort which can be done a few times and therefore requiring a larger vessel to hold it in. Would it be possible that prior to the step up - split the starter into 2 PETs and then pour half the wort into each? Otherwise I guess I'll need to use the fermenter as that's all I have larger than 2L.

How can you tell when the activity is nearly stopped? Using just the initial step up to 1.5L - putting 300ml into stubbies will give 5 starters from this batch. 

Cheers
-cdbrown


----------



## Lachlan

Make sure you have plenty of head space for that 3068, it goes mental. :icon_cheers:


----------



## cubbie

cdbrown said:


> OK - smacked a Dec 08 wyeast 3068 last night after bringing it up to around 20C. Left overnight and the pack was nice and puffy when I checked it this morning before heading to work. I'd like to get some small starters going so want to check the procedure to ensure I have it right. Followed the instructions on the first page (wish the pics were still there) - is this still the best way?
> 
> Boil up 150g of LDME in 1.5L water for 15mins. Chill it down to 20C and then put it in a sterilised container. Pour in the contents of the smacked pack. Cap and shake.
> 
> So eventually it will kick off again - does it matter when the step up occurs? I'll be making the starter tonight so based on all the brews so far, yeast will be very active by the following morning, will it be OK to wait until the evening before stepping up, should I wait longer?
> 
> It says to step up with another 1.5L wort which can be done a few times and therefore requiring a larger vessel to hold it in. Would it be possible that prior to the step up - split the starter into 2 PETs and then pour half the wort into each? Otherwise I guess I'll need to use the fermenter as that's all I have larger than 2L.
> 
> How can you tell when the activity is nearly stopped? Using just the initial step up to 1.5L - putting 300ml into stubbies will give 5 starters from this batch.
> 
> Cheers
> -cdbrown




I only ever make a 1.5L starter and that seems to be about right for my brews (all around the 21L mark). Never do a step up. In saying that I can not see a problem splitting the starter in two bottles and then pouring them both off into your brew (decant most the beer off and just pour out the slurry).


----------



## NeilArge

cubbie said:


> I only ever make a 1.5L starter and that seems to be about right for my brews (all around the 21L mark). Never do a step up. In saying that I can not see a problem splitting the starter in two bottles and then pouring them both off into your brew (decant most the beer off and just pour out the slurry).



I took a leftover slurry of WY1318 from a previous ESB and did all the boiled water washes/rinses etc. I made a 1 litre starter up with this late last week, ready to pitch into a Timothy Taylor Landlord clone I brewed on Saturday (24 litres, OG 1.045). I pitched the starter at c. 20C and it was slowly bubbling away 3 hours later. Chugged away quietly enough yesterday but today (ambient temp.= 20C) it has gone boontah. Had to fit a blow off tube and everything. I didn't think that this yeast would go so nuts. Anyone else had this happen with this yeast? 

Cheers

ToG


----------



## Steve

TunofGrunt said:


> I took a leftover slurry of WY1318 from a previous ESB and did all the boiled water washes/rinses etc. I made a 1 litre starter up with this late last week, ready to pitch into a Timothy Taylor Landlord clone I brewed on Saturday (24 litres, OG 1.045). I pitched the starter at c. 20C and it was slowly bubbling away 3 hours later. Chugged away quietly enough yesterday but today (ambient temp.= 20C) it has gone boontah. Had to fit a blow off tube and everything. I didn't think that this yeast would go so nuts. Anyone else had this happen with this yeast?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ToG



How much slurry did you use? You only need a cup full. If you used it all it'll definately be boontahingup
Cheers
Steve


----------



## cdbrown

Well I ended up mixing the 1.5L wort with the smacked pack in a 2L PET and then splitting that into a second PET. All went well. Didn't really know what I was doing or when to best use it, but on Friday I brewed up an Erdinger clone and tipped one of the bottles into the fermenter. The brew didn't seem to be going at all the following day, but a small gentle swirl of the fermenter kicked it off quickly and it's been going strong ever since. I'll be doing the 1.5L topup, shake and split again tonight and a bit later in the week build it up again before transferring to stubbies.

I also have Wyeast 4766 for cider - is using a malt the best process for this or should I use apple juice as the wort??


----------



## NeilArge

Steve said:


> How much slurry did you use? You only need a cup full. If you used it all it'll definately be boontahingup
> Cheers
> Steve



I didn't split up the washed slurry. So, you think I should have split the starter I made before pitching into the one brew? That is, I overpitched? I followed the Mr malty pitching calculator too.

Cheers

Neil


----------



## Phoney

*bump*


OK So ive just read through the entire thread, the pictures on the OP have disappeaed so excuse me if I seem a little daft but im still fairly new to brewing so let me check if ive got this straight.

This is what im going to do:

1. Take my Wyeast packet out of the fridge and allow to warm to room temp
2. Pop the lump as per instructions on side of packet (how long do I need to leave it for?)
3. Boil up 2L of water with 200g of LDME, place in freezer and cool to about 20C
4. Pour solution into a 2.4L steralized juice bottle and then add the wyeast
5. Cap and shake like hell, then remove cap and stretch glad wrap over & close with rubber band. (or is an airlock in the lid necessary?)
6. After 2 - 3 days at high krausen, swirl to raise the yeast
7. Pour into 6 steralized 250ml juice bottles like these and store in the fridge:








8. 2 - 3 days before im ready to brew, I take out one of these bottles, pour into the 3L juice bottle, top up with 2L of solution as in step 3. 
9. At high krausen it's ready to pitch


Correct?

Im using WYeast 3068 BTW


----------



## cdbrown

2. About 12 -24 hours before is about right to ensure the pack is fully swelled - basically your allowing the packet to reach high krausen before pitching into the bottle
5. I found squeezing the air out of the bottle as much as possible and then putting on the cap works well, the bottle expands as fermentation is progressing, you just relieve the pressure every now and again. Leaving it a bit too long will distort the bottle.

Thats about the right process.


----------



## raven19

phoneyhuh said:


> 5. Cap and shake like hell, then remove cap and stretch glad wrap over & close with rubber band. (or is an airlock in the lid necessary?)



I have used clean PET bottles of late for my starters, and either use an airlock, or even just use the PET lid but just have it on fairly loose so the pressure can be released.

Similar to a fermentor, once you have positive pressure from build up of CO2 in the vessel you should be fine.

Another alternative is a piece of foil over the top to keep airborne nasties out.


----------



## Interloper

Sorry to dredge up this old thread, just looking for some confirmation. Normally I would just pitch onto my yeastcake to get double the value from my smackpack but my last yeastcake didn't fire (as posted this morning - and it still hasn't so I'm re-pitching)

anyhooo - I digress.

My 1762 Abbey II arrived from craftbrewer today and I'd like to get two brews out of it so here's the plan:

1. Take my Wyeast packet out of the fridge, warm to room temp
2. Smack it, wait for puffiness
3. Boil up 2L of water with 200g of LDME, place in freezer and cool to about 20C
4. Put a litre of this into two sterilised containers.
5. Spilt the smack pack evenly into the two containers
6. Cap and shake, glad wrap over
7. At high krausen, pitch one bottle into a wort and one into the fridge for later
8. When ready for next brew pull it out of fridge, up to room temp and straight into wort.

Any probs with this? 

Will a half a smack pack in a litre of LDME be enough to chew through 22L?

Would I need to feed the fridged one more LDME?

Thanks peeps.


----------



## cdbrown

Just the other day I did something similar
1. Smackpack out of fridge to warm
2. Gave it a good smack and then a shake
3. Following evening boiled up 300g LDME in 3L water 15mins and then cooled
4. Poured the lot into a 3L sterilized OJ container
5. Poured the smackpack in, capped and shake container
6. Poured 1L off into a 2L container (to be used as a starter the following evening)
7. Squeezed the air out of both and put in ferment fridge
8. Checked next morning to find both working away (bigger more so) and squeezed the produced CO2 out
9. That evening shook up the 2L container and pitched onto new brew
10. Once the 3L container is finished fermenting will shake and then split into stubbies
11. Cap and store in fridge until needed (at which time will make a 2L starter for the stubbie)


----------



## Interloper

Choice, just what I wanted to hear. 

About what temp was your LDME/water at when you pitched the smackpack in? Cool? Room temp?



cdbrown said:


> Just the other day I did something similar
> 1. Smackpack out of fridge to warm
> 2. Gave it a good smack and then a shake
> 3. Following evening boiled up 300g LDME in 3L water 15mins and then cooled
> 4. Poured the lot into a 3L sterilized OJ container
> 5. Poured the smackpack in, capped and shake container
> 6. Poured 1L off into a 2L container (to be used as a starter the following evening)
> 7. Squeezed the air out of both and put in ferment fridge
> 8. Checked next morning to find both working away (bigger more so) and squeezed the produced CO2 out
> 9. That evening shook up the 2L container and pitched onto new brew
> 10. Once the 3L container is finished fermenting will shake and then split into stubbies
> 11. Cap and store in fridge until needed (at which time will make a 2L starter for the stubbie)


----------



## Batz

Hell this thread goes back to Feb.2004, time I updated it really , pictures have been deleted due a silly mistake I made a few years back.
Perhaps I or someone else should do it again, good information here but needs the pics .
Batz


----------



## Interloper

Batz said:


> Hell this thread goes back to Feb.2004, time I updated it really , pictures have been deleted due a silly mistake I made a few years back.
> Perhaps I or someone else should do it again, good information here but needs the pics .
> Batz



Well I just smacked the pack of Wyeast Belgian Abbey - might go snap a pic right now and document the rest of the process - but I am no expert.

Interesting to note that even on the pack it says to "sterilise this package before opening"... Which I would have probably done anyway...


----------



## bullsneck

The bloke at my LHBS said just save the slurry at the bottom of the fermenter. Chuck that in a bottle, cap it, fridge it. More yeast for next time.

Does that sound right or is that bum steer?


----------



## mwd

bullsneck said:


> The bloke at my LHBS said just save the slurry at the bottom of the fermenter. Chuck that in a bottle, cap it, fridge it. More yeast for next time.
> 
> Does that sound right or is that bum steer?



Thats what I do collect a few cupfuls of slurry into steralised glass pots with lid and store in the fridge, lasts for months. Take out one day before give a good shake and pour into the next brew when the temp is down to about 20C.

I use the 435g Black Olive glass containers from the supermarket 1/4 full of slurry seems to be pretty good for a standard 23l batch.

Forgot to add I only cycle yeast about 4 times before starting again with a fresh pack. No problems or infections yet touch wood.


----------



## Bribie G

With my latest Wyeast brew (Ringwood) I took a leaf out of Graham Wheeler's book (CAMRA brew your own real ales) and as I approached the end of the bottling session I swirled the fermenter a bit and ran off the last two bottles as a cloudy beer, primed as normal, and they are now sitting in a dark cupboard where they stay at a mild temperature. They are basically a nice clear beer amongst the other beers but have a far thicker layer of sediment on the bottom. When I decide to do another Ringwood beer I'll drink one of them and if still sound and delicious, then I'll do a Coopers style yeast culture-up and go from there. No need for special vessels, slants, etc. 

Graham Wheeler often does a whole brew of bottled beer just to create a yeast bank, the theory being that yeast kept on the beer is in its ideal environment that the good Lord of Brewing intended for it. So if you have a fave yeast such as US-05 that you use all the time then you could do a purpose made brew, say a simple single malt, bottle in glass and keep in a cool dark place, that would keep you in yeast for a year without ever buying one in. And you get to drink the beer as well. Win win.


----------



## RdeVjun

Same thing occurred to me recently as BribieG mentions, what will I do with this Wyeast PC strain I just bought to a. use it and b. store some for future use when it becomes unavailable? I was considering farting around with some slants or freezing with glycerine (found some useful tubes and racks at work- in the bin as usual...) but that's a heap of work, perhaps some just straight out of the pack into those Schotts... then the penny dropped- yeast actually stores quite well in tallies full of beer! Culturing the dregs has been done since the dark ages.  

Its such a relief now this is squared away, really the only worry is if they accidentally get drunk, but I'm sure I can control myself just for once.


----------



## Gavo

RdeVjun said:


> Same thing occurred to me recently as BribieG mentions, what will I do with this Wyeast PC strain I just bought to a) use it and store some for future use when it becomes unavailable? I was considering farting around with some slants or freezing with glycerine (found some useful tubes and racks at work- in the bin as usual...) but that's a heap of work, perhaps some just straight out of the pack into those Schotts... then the penny dropped- yeast actually stores quite well in tallies full of beer! Culturing the dregs has been done since the dark ages.
> 
> Its such a relief now this is squared away, really the only worry is if they accidentally get drunk, but I'm sure I can control myself just for once.



Maybe you could store your yeast like TP does here. Surely you could find yourself a few of those. TP did a few instructions up for splitting from the smack pack somewhere, just can't find it ATM.

Cheers
Gavo.


----------



## RdeVjun

gavo said:


> Maybe you could store your yeast like TP does here. Surely you could find yourself a few of those. TP did a few instructions up for splitting from the smack pack somewhere, just can't find it ATM.
> 
> Cheers
> Gavo.


Thanks for the link gavo, have already scored similar kit from the industrial bin at work (as usual). I would like to see that method, I've got a rough idea how it would go though.

See you this arvo!


----------



## Gavo

RdeVjun said:


> Thanks for the link gavo, have already scored similar kit from the industrial bin at work (as usual). I would like to see that method, I've got a rough idea how it would go though.
> 
> See you this arvo!



Will give you the rundown then.

Cheers
Gavo.


----------



## Interloper

bullsneck said:


> The bloke at my LHBS said just save the slurry at the bottom of the fermenter. Chuck that in a bottle, cap it, fridge it. More yeast for next time.
> 
> Does that sound right or is that bum steer?



Not a bum steer at all, I've done this many times - but bear in mind your yeast at the end of the fermenting process is not the yeast in the packet any more.

It's been mutated/changed by growing and consuming your sugars, the fermentables in your wort will have changed its profile, even if only slightly.

If you had maybe a whiff of other bacteria or fungus in the air (wild yeast) then that will have changed it too.

This process is about getting the exact strain of yeast you got in your smack pack and doubling or tripling it - or even more. No mutation or changes.


----------



## Phoney

cdbrown said:


> Just the other day I did something similar
> 1. Smackpack out of fridge to warm
> 2. Gave it a good smack and then a shake
> 3. Following evening boiled up 300g LDME in 3L water 15mins and then cooled
> 4. Poured the lot into a 3L sterilized OJ container
> 5. Poured the smackpack in, capped and shake container
> 6. Poured 1L off into a 2L container (to be used as a starter the following evening)
> 7. Squeezed the air out of both and put in ferment fridge
> 8. Checked next morning to find both working away (bigger more so) and squeezed the produced CO2 out
> 9. That evening shook up the 2L container and pitched onto new brew
> 10. Once the 3L container is finished fermenting will shake and then split into stubbies
> 11. Cap and store in fridge until needed (at which time will make a 2L starter for the stubbie)




This is exactly what ive done. Only after step 5 I left it for 48 hours until the krausen started dying down, then shook it up again to raise the sediment and then poured off into 12 urine sample jars I bought from the chemist @ 90c ea, stuck them in the fridge and I still had a litre or so left which I pitched into my fermenter.


Now ive got at least 12 months supply of 3068 Belgian wheat yeast


----------



## Bubba Q

at the moment i have a starter i made on friday night using a 12 month old pack of 1338 and a 100g/1l starter

when i opened the smack pack i thought i might have detected a whiff of vegemite (autolysis)

so far the starter doenst appear to have fired, no krausen at all. should i leave it for a few more days or just get my hands on a fresh yeast?


----------



## Bubba Q

still no krausen, the starter is starting to separate a bit with a clearish layer on top, murky layer in the middle and dark brown crap on the bottom of the flask

i havent done a lot of starters and dont know whether or not i should tip this down the sink or just leave it for a few more days


----------



## Interloper

Well this went perfectly...

I will post pix this week when I get a chance to, but so far it all seems to have been as easy as pie.

I smacked my pack up and went to bed.

Next morning it had swelled up a treat.

I sterilised the hell out of everything, boiled 200gms of malt in 2L of water for about 10 minutes.

Let it cool quite a bit to almost room temp.

Split the smacky between two 2.5 litre containers

Poured the room temp malt solution between the two containers.

I proceeded to shake it every time I went past it.

24 hours later there was a nice little yeast cake at the bottom of each bottle and it was carbing up nicely.

Now every time I shook it I had to release some pressure.

48 hours later I pitched one bottle into a brew, and then split the other bottle in two, and I'll just repeat this process next time I want some Belgian Abbey Ale yeast.

---Update: after pitching the yeast into a wort that was around 19-20C I had fermentation within 6 hours and the yeast is going crazy.
(The 1762 from wyeast smells very bready and biscuit-ish to my nose)

Annoyingly I had already filled the fermenter to 22L, so this means when you add a litre of yeast/malt starter to this I ended up with 23L in the fermenter which might mean a weaker than desired brew - so tip for young players: Remember to account for volume of the starter before you fill your fermenter.

Anyhoo - pix to come this week.


----------



## manticle

bullsneck said:


> The bloke at my LHBS said just save the slurry at the bottom of the fermenter. Chuck that in a bottle, cap it, fridge it. More yeast for next time.
> 
> Does that sound right or is that bum steer?




If you're prepared to take the small risk of infection you can also top crop. I've done this once recently with 3787 at high krausen using a sterilised plastic serving spoon (reserved for beer related things) a sanitised funnel and sanitised longnecks. I filled with boiled, cooled water then capped the longnecks with a crown seal and they seem to have cultured up well. The yeast should be less tired at this point and I can't imagine that that point of vigourous fermentation is going to allow too much else to grow in the brew (you obviously have to open your fermenter to do this).

Someone steer me in the right direction if this is remarkably dumb for some reason I'm missing.


----------



## Sammus

Bubba Q said:


> still no krausen, the starter is starting to separate a bit with a clearish layer on top, murky layer in the middle and dark brown crap on the bottom of the flask
> 
> i havent done a lot of starters and dont know whether or not i should tip this down the sink or just leave it for a few more days



Wait a little longer I reackon. Pour off a tiny bit of the clearish layer (1/2 shot?) have a smell and taste. It won't taste great, since most starter worts we make are unhopped etc, but you should be able to tell if it tastes yeasty (good) or like some other crap (vinegar or chemically or something). If it tastes sweet then it hasn't fermented yet, if it's not so sweet, it has fermented.

Often you wont see the krausen on a starter, it can be over in a very short period of time and doesn't leave much of a sign it was there.


----------



## cdbrown

Bubba Q said:


> at the moment i have a starter i made on friday night using a 12 month old pack of 1338 and a 100g/1l starter
> 
> when i opened the smack pack i thought i might have detected a whiff of vegemite (autolysis)
> 
> so far the starter doenst appear to have fired, no krausen at all. should i leave it for a few more days or just get my hands on a fresh yeast?



Did the smack pack swell up before pouring into the starter wort?


----------



## Bubba Q

the smack pack puffed up slightly but not to the extent where it felt like it was about to explode

seems like there is now a fine layer of whitish stuff above the layer of brown crud at the bottom of the flask, will have a taste tonight and see if its ok to pitch


----------



## Interloper

Bubba Q said:


> seems like there is now a fine layer of whitish stuff above the layer of brown crud at the bottom of the flask, will have a taste tonight and see if its ok to pitch



Well that sounds like a viable yeast cake. Keep shaking the bottle to agitate it and put it back into suspension. It will help it carb up and get to work producing more yeast and eating the malt.


----------



## manticle

To avoid starting a new thread just for one question - can anyone advise whether it's worth using a liquid for a strong stout or whether I just go for a good dried one?

My understanding is that most character will come from the malt, with low esters, dicaetyl etc and I don't want to spend the $15 odd dollars on something designed to give me less rather than more. I've only used one wyeast so far but the character that it gave is obvious and desirable (3787 for a Dubbel).

Cheers.


----------



## Bubba Q

bugger, my starter is still very very sweet


----------



## Stuster

manticle said:


> To avoid starting a new thread just for one question - can anyone advise whether it's worth using a liquid for a strong stout or whether I just go for a good dried one?



I think S-04 would be fine for a stout. As you say, the yeast are not the game breaker with this kind of beer, with the roasted malts being the major contributors. But if it is a strong stout make sure that you pitch enough yeast.


----------



## manticle

Stuster said:


> I think S-04 would be fine for a stout. As you say, the yeast are not the game breaker with this kind of beer, with the roasted malts being the major contributors. But if it is a strong stout make sure that you pitch enough yeast.



Cheers


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Ready for a silly question? (you would think after 5 years on AHB i would know this!  ) 
I have always used Wyeast and followed the method below fairly closely, I am getting a few new liquid yeasts from Gryphon shortly. I don't have to vary the method right? Does it matter that the yeast is not *started* i.e smacked beforehand? - 

1. Take smackpack out of fridge to warm
2. Gave it a good smack and then a shake
3. Following evening boil up 300g LDME in 3L water 20mins and then cool
4. Poured the lot into a 5L sterilized Demijohn
5. Poured the smackpack in, shake container.
6. Pour of 1L off into a 2L container (to be used as a starter the following evening)
7. Put both in ferment fridge
8. Next evening shake up the 2L container and pitch into new brew
6. Leave the Demijohn for 48 hours, swirl occasionaly. Wait till krausen dies down.
10. Once the Demijohn container has finished fermenting, shake and split into sample jars (bought from the chemist)
11. Cap and store in fridge until needed (at which time make a 2L starter from the sample jar)

Cheers
DK


----------



## Pennywise

You don't HAVE to smack the pack, doing so just releases nutrients and sort off "proofs" it. IMO it's better to, but it's no biggie. I would aslo prefer that when I bought the pack it wasn't pre-smacked. Your above method looks pretty good to me.


----------



## GTS350

Nice Summary DK , can I get a few temperatures from you though?

- steps 7 to 9: what temp is your ferment fridge at when you store the 2l starter and demijohn (with 3l left in it)?

- step 10: how big are your sample jars? 300ml ? (to make a starter for a 23l brew?)

- step 11: what temp do you store these sample jars? (is it colder for a lager, warmer for a stout?, or no difference)

Thanks very muchly for posting your processes, Im about to cultivate some Wyeast 2112 California Lager, and its bold new territory - I feel like I have no idea what Im doing. heh heh.
Cheers n Beers..


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

GTS350 said:


> Nice Summary DK , can I get a few temperatures from you though?
> 
> - steps 7 to 9: what temp is your ferment fridge at when you store the 2l starter and demijohn (with 3l left in it)?
> 
> - step 10: how big are your sample jars? 300ml ? (to make a starter for a 23l brew?)
> 
> - step 11: what temp do you store these sample jars? (is it colder for a lager, warmer for a stout?, or no difference)
> 
> Thanks very muchly for posting your processes, Im about to cultivate some Wyeast 2112 California Lager, and its bold new territory - I feel like I have no idea what Im doing. heh heh.
> Cheers n Beers..



Hi GTS350,

1. The ferment fridge (actually a chest freezer with a FridgeMate) is set to 19 deg.
2. My sample jars are 70ml, when brewing a new beer i just take one out and build a 2L starter out of it. Its a great way to store yeast (they stack well, you can write legibly on them) and it means I almost never run out!
3. The yeasts are stored in the beer fridge which is about 3-5 deg. No difference for ale or lager.

Cheers
DK


----------



## drew9242

I know digging up an old thread.

But i would like to say thanks to Batz for all his hard work in making these instructions. And to every one else who added some info in this great thread. I have used the thread to make 6 bottles of Pro Culture Kolsch yeast. And have now used two of these for Kolsch and an Altbier. I have only just bottled the Kolsch, so haven't tasted it quite yet. And the Altbier is still in the fermentor. But i am looking forward to giving them a try soon.

Any way liquid yeast are quite easy, so i'll definently be using them from now on. 

Thanks again


----------



## bum

Hello, long thread from ages ago! Nice to see you.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread - I reckon I've got a pretty good handle on the process now but, as has been pointed out already, the pics have been deleted from Batz's OP - anyone got a link to good pics of the process (or another thread here, even (obviously)). I'd feel a bit more confident if I could get a visual confirmation that what I'm imagining looks right.


----------



## big78sam

Interloper said:


> Split the smacky between two 2.5 litre containers
> 
> Poured the room temp malt solution between the two containers.
> 
> *I proceeded to shake it every time I went past it.*
> 
> 24 hours later there was a nice little yeast cake at the bottom of each bottle and it was carbing up nicely.
> 
> Now every time I shook it I had to release some pressure.
> 
> 48 hours later I pitched one bottle into a brew, and then split the other bottle in two, and I'll just repeat this process next time I want some Belgian Abbey Ale yeast.



A question here. I've read a number of times that once the yeast is in the fermenter and working it's magic that it's OK to rouse the yeast but not to get too much oxygen in it. You want the oxygen to be present and the wort aerated _at pitching_ but once the yeast has started it's a no no. IIRC leads to oxydization (but I'm a bit vague here). 

Basically what you are doing when doing a starter is a mini brew. I would have thought the same principles apply and that shaking the bottle to aerate would be bad. Any comments?


----------



## Batz

Drew9242 said:


> I know digging up an old thread.
> 
> But i would like to say thanks to Batz for all his hard work in making these instructions. And to every one else who added some info in this great thread. I have used the thread to make 6 bottles of Pro Culture Kolsch yeast. And have now used two of these for Kolsch and an Altbier. I have only just bottled the Kolsch, so haven't tasted it quite yet. And the Altbier is still in the fermentor. But i am looking forward to giving them a try soon.
> 
> Any way liquid yeast are quite easy, so i'll definently be using them from now on.
> 
> Thanks again




Thank you Drew,
Unfortunately all the pictures I had with each post have since disappeared, a problem that occurred on AHB quite a few years ago.
Time it was updated by myself of somebody else I suppose. It is nice to see the likes before a stir plate, you really don't need one.

Batz


----------



## dicko

Batz said:


> Thank you Drew,
> Unfortunately all the pictures I had with each post have since disappeared, a problem that occurred on AHB quite a few years ago.
> Time it was updated by myself of somebody else I suppose. It is nice to see the likes before a stir plate, you really don't need one.
> 
> Batz



Those were the days Batz, when yeast packs were a lot smaller, There was no stir plates and the biggest thing on AHB was a Skunk Fart Pale Ale and we all waited with baited breath (not alcohol) for the next post (episode) :lol: and when members posted to find the real facts and not just to add to their post tally :lol: ooh!! I wish !!
OH! Well ! 
"Those were the days my friend We thought they'd never end  :lol: "


Cheers


----------



## Dazza_devil

big78sam said:


> A question here. I've read a number of times that once the yeast is in the fermenter and working it's magic that it's OK to rouse the yeast but not to get too much oxygen in it. You want the oxygen to be present and the wort aerated _at pitching_ but once the yeast has started it's a no no. IIRC leads to oxydization (but I'm a bit vague here).
> 
> Basically what you are doing when doing a starter is a mini brew. I would have thought the same principles apply and that shaking the bottle to aerate would be bad. Any comments?



I'm hoping that aeration of the starter is not a big deal and is only going to affect the beer that it's made and not the quality of the yeast. It didn't seem to worry my brew using my Coopers culture but I didn't swirl her up to get samples and aerate any samples putting them into stubbies with that one.
I've just bottled 3 stubbies off my 3 litre wyeast starter and they got a fair amount of aeration going into the stubbie. I also gave the starter a fair rousing (swirl wise) before, during and after fermentation. The thing smells delicious but I will be decanting any fermented wort from my starter and giving it a feed of wort 2 or 3 hours before pitching.
It will be going into an oxidised wort after all so hopefully all will be good after fermentation of my brew as far as the prior oxidation of the starter goes.
Any microbiologists may be able to chime in and put me right with the effect of aeration on the yeast after fermentation.

Also, after swirling up the fermented 3 litre starter and filling 3 stubbies with a funnel I never bothered putting anything in for carbonation. I figured this wouldn't be a problem because I know some people store their yeasts with just distilled water. I understand that the CO2 can blanket the sample protecting it but I didn't want to feed the beast any dextrose or stuff around priming them. Any thoughts on this?

The remainder of my starter is now chilling to 1.5 degrees C. A couple of days and I'll decant the beer off, warm to pitching temp and hopefully Bob's me uncle.


----------



## big78sam

Batz said:


> First boil 1.5 lt of water with 1/3 cup dry malt extract , place in freezer and allow to cool




Is it just me or is this nowhere near enough DME? I can't remember exactly but last night 1/3 cup was about 40 grams on my scales. According to beersmith this gives an SG of around 1010. I thought 1030 to 1040 was more the aim, depending on the OG of your brew. The figure bandied around is about 100g per 1 litre. Am I looking at this wrong?


----------



## barneyb

Tried my hand at cultivating a cider yeast (WLP775 English Cider Yeast) half using instructions here and half of what my LHBS suggested. I got a bottle of apple juice, emptied out a bit and threw the yeast in, shook the crapola out of it, covered it with cling wrap and let it do its thing. 

I definitely got a bit of a "fermenting" smell, there were little bubbles forming on the top of the liquid and the glad wrap was being pushed up so I knew we had action. 

After 2 days I noticed the remnants of a krausen a little bit above the water line so took that as a sign that it had done its thing. Now I split it between 4 stubbies, however even though I gently turned the juice bottle around to get the solid stuff moving through the liquid, most of the solid stuff stayed at the bottom of the bottle which I used for my first brew, leaving mostly just the suspended yeast in the other stubbies. Will this still be enough to use in future brews? Will it require the use of a good starter before using the extra ones?


----------



## aussiechucka

I have just used my first smack pack wyeast 2124 Bohemian Larger. Followed Batz's directions as I don't have a stir plate and split it into two, one litres. One for the fermenter and the other to split into two for another day. The fermenter is bubbling away nicely so I know it must have worked for this beer so will see how i go with the stored ones next time I use them. Thanks again for all the info, with out it I would have probably just tipped the packet in even without smacking it or letting it grow.
Great info :beer:


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

Trying not to start a new thread so hopefully someone can answer this question even though it has been inactive for a a while  

Just spit my wyeast starter, two 250 ml bottles in the fridge with plenty of white goodness at the bottom to build up again!

Can anyone tell me if it would be better to poor off the wort on top and replace it with cooled boiled water or saline solution.


----------



## Florian

I would just leave it as is, at least that way you can taste the beer on top of the yeast before you use it, and if it tastes rank you know something has gone wrong. But there are different ways and opinions on this, that's just the way I would do it at the moment with my current knowledge (always subject to change...).


----------



## RdeVjun

I'd just leave it, BDB. Once it is fermented out it should store for weeks and even months like that in the fridge, just be sure to release any pressure regularly if it is in a closed bottle.
If you want to grow it out, then that's when I'd tip the excess off, sample it for flavour as Florian mentions.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

thanks guys I will leave it.

I will keep an eye on the gas levels hadn't thought of that, ka BOOM!! brewing privales revoked by the minister of war..

Like the idea of tasting it too  

Cheers BDB


----------



## fcmcg

beerdrinkingbob said:


> thanks guys I will leave it.
> 
> I will keep an eye on the gas levels hadn't thought of that, ka BOOM!! brewing privales revoked by the minister of war..
> 
> Like the idea of tasting it too
> 
> Cheers BDB


Surprised the minister will let you do anything after Saturday , Bob ...lol
I'd leave it...if u had a look in the fridge Sat , you would have seen about 7 plastic bottles of yeast /beer etc....
Cheers
Ferg


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

fergthebrewer said:


> Surprised the minister will let you do anything after Saturday , Bob ...lol
> I'd leave it...if u had a look in the fridge Sat , you would have seen about 7 plastic bottles of yeast /beer etc....
> Cheers
> Ferg




Wish I read what i wrote, I think I'm still sloshed, privales.. what tha

Mate are yours all slurry or are they wyeast starter too, whats the longest you've left yours without any issues getting it started again etc? 

Great day Saturday too mate :kooi:


----------



## felten

If it was me, I would leave it as it is and store it as cool as possible, which for me would be in a container of ice water in the fridge. http://www.wyeastlab.com/com-yeast-storage.cfm (link is for harvested yeast but I'm sure it applies to starter yeast)


----------



## Mark Van Moolenbroek

Gents,

Thanks for all the great advice in this thread. Hoping for somefurther help, very exciting with this process and hoping for some success as I did the first steps of my first starter/yeast culture using Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils yesterday afternoon, followed all the instructions from the start of this thread with no problems. Got to this morning, 12 hours of fermenting and not sure where to go from here? I have the wort and yeast in a 5 litre glass vessel with stopper and airlock. There is not much surface activitiy a few white patches of krauser and there is a thick line of white sludge along the bottom which I assume is good. Wondering how long before I should get activity throught he airlock? and what temp I should be keeping it at, is room temp okay or do I need to put it in the frementation fridge at the ideal yeast temp?, Up here in Mackay the temp at night is about 16-18 and the day at about 25 - 27 at the moment. Just a little unclear on the next process before bottling into 6 stubbies? 

Apologies for the basic questions, and I may have missed these questions in the threads I have read, but hoping for some help and direction.

Cheers,

Mark


----------



## Wolfy

Markv said:


> Gents,
> 
> Thanks for all the great advice in this thread. Hoping for somefurther help, very exciting with this process and hoping for some success as I did the first steps of my first starter/yeast culture using Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils yesterday afternoon, followed all the instructions from the start of this thread with no problems. Got to this morning, 12 hours of fermenting and not sure where to go from here? I have the wort and yeast in a 5 litre glass vessel with stopper and airlock. There is not much surface activitiy a few white patches of krauser and there is a thick line of white sludge along the bottom which I assume is good. Wondering how long before I should get activity throught he airlock? and what temp I should be keeping it at, is room temp okay or do I need to put it in the frementation fridge at the ideal yeast temp?, Up here in Mackay the temp at night is about 16-18 and the day at about 25 - 27 at the moment. Just a little unclear on the next process before bottling into 6 stubbies?
> 
> Apologies for the basic questions, and I may have missed these questions in the threads I have read, but hoping for some help and direction.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mark


Sorry I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve?
Are you going to split the starter into stubbies to store some before using the rest to ferment a batch of beer?
Or are you making the starter to use directly in a batch of beer?

Most people/literature suggest fermenting starters 'close' to the 'recommended' temperature range for that yeast, between 12 and 15C for a lager yeast starter would be suitable - a little warmer is OK (to encourage cell growth), but alot warmer is not a good idea.

Starters are different to fermenting a full batch of beer, you may not see any airlock activity, krasuen, or any other signs of fermentation, sometimes it's over before you even notice it starts. The 'growth phase' of the yeast (mostly) happens before fermentation starts, so when you see krasuen, signs of fermentation or airlock activity, (most of) the cell growth has already been completed. For most yeast/starters the maximum growth will occur within about 12-24 (maybe 48) hours after pitching.


----------



## Mark Van Moolenbroek

Wolfy said:


> Sorry I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve?
> Are you going to split the starter into stubbies to store some before using the rest to ferment a batch of beer?
> Or are you making the starter to use directly in a batch of beer?
> 
> Most people/literature suggest fermenting starters 'close' to the 'recommended' temperature range for that yeast, between 12 and 15C for a lager yeast starter would be suitable - a little warmer is OK (to encourage cell growth), but alot warmer is not a good idea.
> 
> Starters are different to fermenting a full batch of beer, you may not see any airlock activity, krasuen, or any other signs of fermentation, sometimes it's over before you even notice it starts. The 'growth phase' of the yeast (mostly) happens before fermentation starts, so when you see krasuen, signs of fermentation or airlock activity, (most of) the cell growth has already been completed. For most yeast/starters the maximum growth will occur within about 12-24 (maybe 48) hours after pitching.



Thanks for your reply Wolfy,

I am hoping to split the starter into 6 stubbies all going well. Perhaps I have missed the show but am not sure, could have been slow to start, will put it in the fridge tonight at 14c and see how it looks tomorrow, I am assuming by 48 hours I should be looking at putting into the stubbies, bit usure I can rely on it for for my next brew. Am confident with the sanitation the only doubt I have is I only let the pack expand for four hours it had noticably expanded but perhaps not enough?

Cheers, Mark


----------



## manticle

I think you're relying on airlock activity unneccessarily. If as you say, there is a layer of krausen then the beer has started fermenting. That means the yeast is viable and how much the pack swelled is unimportant. Let it ferment out, decant the top wort, rinse the slurry with cooled boiled water into your 6 stubbies, cap and refrigerate. Sounds fine.

If you're making a starter (for immediate use rather than growing and splitting then storing for later use) you want to get it to the cell level you need then pitch when it's actively fermenting (which yours is).

In all cases smell and even taste first to make sure it tastes like yeast rather than poo.


----------



## MaltyHops

Markv said:


> ...
> I am hoping to split the starter into 6 stubbies all going well. Perhaps I have missed the show but am not sure, could have been slow to start, will put it in the fridge tonight at 14c and see how it looks tomorrow, I am assuming by 48 hours I should be looking at putting into the stubbies, ...


Not sure that there would be enough food for the yeast in a starter pack to
generate enough CO2 - but certainly for those who collect trub/yeast for reuse
to be wary of creating potential bottle bombs by storing in glass jars/bottles
where the lid could jam or be too tightly closed - see homebrewtalk.com
article. I've always twisted the lids to where it starts to close and undo slightly.



Wolfy said:


> ...
> Starters are different to fermenting a full batch of beer, you may not see any airlock activity, krasuen, or any other signs of fermentation, sometimes it's over before you even notice it starts. The 'growth phase' of the yeast (mostly) happens before fermentation starts, so when you see krasuen, signs of fermentation or airlock activity, (most of) the cell growth has already been completed. For most yeast/starters the maximum growth will occur within about 12-24 (maybe 48) hours after pitching.


Does this mean the best time to pitch a starter into a brew is as soon as krausen
or airlock activity becomes evident? Or is it better to pitch some way into the
growth phase so that the yeasties just keep on growing in the brew? What would
be the signs of growth - increasing deposits at the bottom of the starter vessel?

T.


----------



## Wolfy

MaltyHops said:


> Does this mean the best time to pitch a starter into a brew is as soon as krausen
> or airlock activity becomes evident? Or is it better to pitch some way into the
> growth phase so that the yeasties just keep on growing in the brew? What would
> be the signs of growth - increasing deposits at the bottom of the starter vessel?


Follow correct procedures, be sanitary and careful and no signs are really needed, the yeast will simply do what it does, and as a result there should be a visiable increase in the amount of yeast once it settles. However, to maximize cell-growth, constant oxygenation is very useful, which means a stir plate or shaking the jar every time you remember, which in turn means that you won't see the yeast settle out in order to compare it.

The conventional wisdom is to pitch the starter at high krausen when the yeast is most active, but then you get into the debate of pitching the entire starter or letting it settle and pitching only the yeast... etc.


----------



## manticle

A starter is just that - a starter to help start quickly. Best time for that is when active fermentation is taking place. To make a starter you should build up the necessary cells first or begin with them. People seem to confuse step ups with starters quite often.

Active fermentation in a small wort may not show huge fermentation signs that we are used to in full beer batches. I think screwtop posted some images of the co2 bubbles you can see forming when you hold the starter to the light.


----------



## Bribie G

I always do my starters (Wyeast, or starting up some stored yeast out of a bottle) in Schott Lab bottles with the screw top open just a crack, and I rarely get a miniature version of a full size fermenter brew. Usually the only time I can tell there's anything going on is when I swirl the bottle and the wort rises and there's a definite 'hiss' out of the bottle, then it settles back down again. Another way you can tell is to look across the surface of the wort and you can see the CO2 fizzing and 'prickling' the surface of the wort as it escapes.


----------



## Guysmiley54

Would these containers be ok for storing yeast?

http://www.cospak.com.au/productdetails.asp?ProductID=7145

http://www.cospak.com.au/productdetails.asp?ProductID=10828

http://www.cospak.com.au/productdetails.asp?ProductID=8452

http://www.cospak.com.au/productdetails.asp?ProductID=6504

http://www.cospak.com.au/productdetails.asp?ProductID=8590

Lots of choices....

What size/material would be best?


----------



## barls

ive found the ones in this thread better sizes
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=43801


----------



## drew9242

Or you could go to the chemist and get some specimen jars for $1 a piece. And that way you can see what is inside. That is what i use anyway.


----------



## Guysmiley54

Are they hard to get without a bulk buy?

I might try a couple of specimen jars to begin with. How big are yours? How do you step up the samples for their size?

Cheers


----------



## drew9242

Specimen jar i got hold about 60ml. I can't remeber how OP does it but i did use it when i started. Now i just use 1.5L of wort and let that ferment out. Then pour off about 1.2L of fermented wort (and taste to see if all is good), then shake and distribute between me specimen jars. Come brew day i just make another 1.5L starter for Ales and then chuck that into the fermenter. That is the way i do it and it seems to work for me. If i am doing anything wrong i am up for addvice.


----------



## barls

they sell them in box of 500 as a minimum. so yes its fun.
i might have one bag left ill check tomorrow if you want.


----------



## keifer33

I recently ordered 2 packs of these for use with liquid yeast. Recieved within 2 weeks.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/50ml-Graduated-Plas...=item19bfd382a1

Also noticed they have some 30ml in their store aswell but I thought 50ml was just right.


----------



## Guysmiley54

barls said:


> they sell them in box of 500 as a minimum. so yes its fun.
> i might have one bag left ill check tomorrow if you want.



That would be great, thanks!


----------



## Bribie G

They would be a good size for freezing as well. A couple of months ago I started a thread on freezing yeast - I'm going to thaw out and use my first tube later in the week when I run up an Old Speckled Hen type and I'll bump that thread then with results.


----------



## shavey147

After reading through this thread & Tony's thread on splitting smack-packs I've decided to split an activator pack that I have sitting in the fridge into 4 (3 to be stored, one to use at time of splitting). As I only brew 23 litre batches, would a starter volume of around 500ml be sufficient to get things underway, or should I be looking to increase the volume to around 1 litre?
Assistance from the brains trust would be much appreciated on this one, cheers.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

barls said:


> they sell them in box of 500 as a minimum. so yes its fun.
> i might have one bag left ill check tomorrow if you want.



If you have two or smiley pulls out i have been looking for some too :icon_cheers:


----------



## barls

only one bag left apart from the one ive just opened guy smiley has first option


----------



## Bomber1975

Sorry if this is already mentioned somewhere in the discussion, I read this about a week ago and can't remember if it was. Can you do this with a dry yeast lets say a US05? Sorry again if it was mentioned.

Cheers Damien


----------



## fcmcg

Bomber1975 said:


> Sorry if this is already mentioned somewhere in the discussion, I read this about a week ago and can't remember if it was. Can you do this with a dry yeast lets say a US05? Sorry again if it was mentioned.
> 
> Cheers Damien


Damian,
I wouldn't bother trying to split dry yeast . For what it costs for a 11g packet , and with all the stuffing around you'd have to do to measure out yeast etc ( and keep eveything sanitry ) IMHO , it isn't worth the effort. At least you know when you open a dry packet that its sterile...
Believe me , there is pain associated with tipping a full batch of beer when your yeast wasn't up to the challenge....lol
:icon_cheers: 
Ferg


----------



## mr_tyreman

7 years, 9 months still educating... Thankyou Batz, and apologies for anyone upset by bringing up old threads for educational purposes.

Just a quick question, I'm boiling my DME in a 2L Erlenmeyer, crash chilling to room temp and pitching the smack pack straight into it, not decanting into another vessel, waiting for activity and then splitting into separate containers for refridgeration.

Am I okay doing this method... Or should I really be transferring the wort into another sanitized vessel?

Thankyou


----------



## Pennywise

That's how I used to do it. Ferment a 2L starter out then split it in to 6 stubbies. On the last stubbie of yeast make another 2L starter with it and do the same. I've had no probs going 3-4 generations with the yeasts I've tried it with.


----------



## mckenry

mr_tyreman said:


> 7 years, 9 months still educating... Thankyou Batz, and apologies for anyone upset by bringing up old threads for educational purposes.
> 
> Just a quick question, I'm boiling my DME in a 2L Erlenmeyer, crash chilling to room temp and pitching the smack pack straight into it, not decanting into another vessel, waiting for activity and then splitting into separate containers for refridgeration.
> 
> Am I okay doing this method... Or should I really be transferring the wort into another sanitized vessel?
> 
> Thankyou



mmmm. I think not really. A smack pack (age dependant etc etc) is good to go for 20 odd L batch. I would be saving the original smack packs contents into 4 seperate small vials (or similar). 1/4 of a smack pack into 2L wort and youre away. Then you have 3 unused, new, ready to go next time. Makes a 10 dollar wyeast into 4 'new' starters.


----------



## mr_tyreman

I see, my question was more to do with using the same vessel (Erlenmeyer) to boil and ferment in and hopefully reduce chances of infection on transfer to another container?

With the method you described, are you limiting your multiplication of cells. As compared with OP method?


Edit: possibly not multiplication but rather growth of cells?


----------



## stux

mckenry said:


> mmmm. I think not really. A smack pack (age dependant etc etc) is good to go for 20 odd L batch. I would be saving the original smack packs contents into 4 seperate small vials (or similar). 1/4 of a smack pack into 2L wort and youre away. Then you have 3 unused, new, ready to go next time. Makes a 10 dollar wyeast into 4 'new' starters.



This is what I do. Works triffically and means you use Gen Zero yeast each time.

Don't smack the smack packs before splitting and you'll fill 4 30ml vials easily

I tend to do 3 or 4 smack packs at once... only takes a few minutes and 12 30 ml vials is much easier to store than half a slab of stubbies 

And who's had a friend complain about that really yeasty flat beer at the back of the beer fridge... somehow the same doesn't happen to the yellow lidded vials


----------



## mckenry

mr_tyreman said:


> I see, my question was more to do with using the same vessel (Erlenmeyer) to boil and ferment in and hopefully reduce chances of infection on transfer to another container?


 Yes, use the same vessel



mr_tyreman said:


> With the method you described, are you limiting your multiplication of cells. As compared with OP method?


Nope, 1/4 of a pack is good for 2L wort. Should reproduce enough to pitch into a 23L batch. Pour off excess liquid first. Swirl it up, pitch into fermenter. Wort at right temp on top, aerate and wait.


----------



## stux

Stux said:


> This is what I do. Works triffically and means you use Gen Zero yeast each time.
> 
> Don't smack the smack packs before splitting and you'll fill 4 30ml vials easily
> 
> I tend to do 3 or 4 smack packs at once... only takes a few minutes and 12 30 ml vials is much easier to store than half a slab of stubbies
> 
> And who's had a friend complain about that really yeasty flat beer at the back of the beer fridge... somehow the same doesn't happen to the yellow lidded vials





> Just clarifing what you said about liquid yeast. You grab a smack pack and divide it into 4. (Do you smack it 1st to mix the little satchel, if not what do you do with the satchel?) So you leave them in the fridge in jars as is (how long do you think they will keep?). Then on brew day, you grab 2L of chilled wort. Mix it with the yeast. Drop it into the FV and then the rest of the wort on top. Aeriate.
> Does this sound about right?



Here is the thread on the subject
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=45866

I use 30ml sterile plastic vials, they're about 2cm wide.

I have found its better NOT to smack the smack pack. This keeps the yeast cleaner, saves time waiting for the smack pack to fully ferment, and means you get about 25-28mls of yeast etc in each vial, rather than slightly overflowing. The yeast is clearer too.

The little sachets of wort/nutrient can be added to you starter volume.

You make a starter. The problem is you're making a starter with only 25% of the yeast that you normally would, this means if you want to do this you may want to build yourself a stirplate and possiby do a double step starter.

I have splits from smack packs which are approaching 12 months old, they should be fine as long as you build them up properly. I'm currently about to build up a 6 month old vial. This will mean I do a 500ml starter on the stirplate, then add another 1.2L on the stirplate, then chill and decant the spent wort, then stir up the remainder and pitch.

I don't pitch the full starter volume as with a stirplate its heavily oxidized and nasty beer that I don't want in my final beer 


Now, I don't start the starter on brewday. It takes a few days to build up the yeast to pitching rates, and as I no-chill, I collect the kettle dregs and strain that to get my starter wort, then more than a few days in advance I build up my yeast in a starter. 

Once built up the yeast will keep in a fridge for at least a week. Come fermentation day, i pitch the yeast from that starter





Here I am splitting 3 well-swolen wyeasts into 12 30ml vials. I no longer smack the wyeast packs before splitting.


----------



## stux

And this is a great online tool for calculating out the steps. All you need to do is adjust the inital cell count from 100B to 25B

http://yeastcalc.summitwoodwork.com/


----------



## The Giant

I have a wyeast 3068 for a hefeweizin I wanted to brew. I had a look at it the other day in the fridge and it is already well swollen up.

Does this mean it has been "smacked" already in the fridge somehow? If it has been activated how do I know for sure? and how quickly do I need to use it?


----------



## felten

http://www.wyeastlab.com/faqs.cfm?website=2#r40


heh, swollen package

If you can feel the nutrient pack inside, then it hasn't been smacked.


----------



## The Giant

Thanks mate. It is so swollen I cant really squeeze it, but I wont go digging until I'm ready to use it just in case I do activate it.

Shaking it feels like something is still floating around in it.

Cheers


----------



## The Giant

Just to report back the pack is to swollen to feel anything in it. I dare say that it might have been smacked already then 

I know there FAQ pages said it could be sold with confidence. I guess maybe make a starter and see what happens. I'm afraid that if i smack it the whole pack will explode and go everywhere hahah


----------



## stux

The Giant said:


> Just to report back the pack is to swollen to feel anything in it. I dare say that it might have been smacked already then
> 
> I know there FAQ pages said it could be sold with confidence. I guess maybe make a starter and see what happens. I'm afraid that if i smack it the whole pack will explode and go everywhere hahah



Sounds like its been smacked to me 

Just make a starter anyway, and pitch. You don't *need* to smack smack packs. And you don't *have* to use them immediately after smacking


----------



## bruce86

Ok so i want to split my wyeast belgian abbey. there are a lot of mixed ideas here so to smack or not to smack? i have small vials ready etc. also if i choose not to smack can u keep the pouch with all the yeast food thats inside the pack to use in a starter. Also was going to split into 6. if i dont smack do they last longer? 

Thanks Guys


----------



## stux

I would not smack and yes you can use the pouch in a starter


----------



## bruce86

Stux said:


> I would not smack and yes you can use the pouch in a starter




Thanks


----------



## humulus

Stux said:


> Here is the thread on the subject
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=45866
> 
> I use 30ml sterile plastic vials, they're about 2cm wide.
> 
> I have found its better NOT to smack the smack pack. This keeps the yeast cleaner, saves time waiting for the smack pack to fully ferment, and means you get about 25-28mls of yeast etc in each vial, rather than slightly overflowing. The yeast is clearer too.
> 
> The little sachets of wort/nutrient can be added to you starter volume.
> 
> You make a starter. The problem is you're making a starter with only 25% of the yeast that you normally would, this means if you want to do this you may want to build yourself a stirplate and possiby do a double step starter.
> 
> I have splits from smack packs which are approaching 12 months old, they should be fine as long as you build them up properly. I'm currently about to build up a 6 month old vial. This will mean I do a 500ml starter on the stirplate, then add another 1.2L on the stirplate, then chill and decant the spent wort, then stir up the remainder and pitch.
> 
> I don't pitch the full starter volume as with a stirplate its heavily oxidized and nasty beer that I don't want in my final beer
> 
> 
> Now, I don't start the starter on brewday. It takes a few days to build up the yeast to pitching rates, and as I no-chill, I collect the kettle dregs and strain that to get my starter wort, then more than a few days in advance I build up my yeast in a starter.
> 
> Once built up the yeast will keep in a fridge for at least a week. Come fermentation day, i pitch the yeast from that starter
> 
> View attachment 49949
> 
> 
> Here I am splitting 3 well-swolen wyeasts into 12 30ml vials. I no longer smack the wyeast packs before splitting.


G,day stux where do you get your vials from?
cheers Humulus


----------



## iralosavic

humulus said:


> G,day stux where do you get your vials from?
> cheers Humulus



http://www.proscitech.com.au/cataloguex/online.asp?page=l9

*STERILE SAMPLE TUBES, 30mL*
Conical bottom, free-standing, sterile, labelled and unlabelled, 30mL, PP.
OD25mm
LS22-30 Sample tubes, PP, conical bottom free-standing, sterile, 30mL AUD16.00 /pk/50 10% discount for 8 Available \l ""\l ""
LS22-30L Sample tubes, PP, conical bottom free-standing, sterile, 30mL, labelled AUD17.00 /pk/50


----------



## humulus

iralosavic said:


> http://www.proscitech.com.au/cataloguex/online.asp?page=l9
> 
> *STERILE SAMPLE TUBES, 30mL*
> Conical bottom, free-standing, sterile, labelled and unlabelled, 30mL, PP.
> OD25mm
> LS22-30 Sample tubes, PP, conical bottom free-standing, sterile, 30mL AUD16.00 /pk/50 10% discount for 8 Available \l ""\l ""
> LS22-30L Sample tubes, PP, conical bottom free-standing, sterile, 30mL, labelled AUD17.00 /pk/50


Cheers mate will order this week,do these vials handle boiling water for sterilization or do you napisan then starsan?


----------



## stux

humulus said:


> G,day stux where do you get your vials from?
> cheers Humulus



I got mine in this bulk buy

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=52907

You might be able to get 100 or so from other suppliers, like livingstone.

100 is pretty much a lifetime supply. The nice thing is they're sterile, so you can decide if you want to re-use them and sterilize or not... after you've gone through your first 100 or so 

Which is why getting in on a bulk buy is nice.


----------



## bignath

humulus said:


> do these vials handle boiling water for sterilization or do you napisan then starsan?



I would also love to know how to prepare these vials for use. Have been kindly donated a heap of them from another AHB member and would like to know how other's do it. 

Am gonna start with splitting some wyeast's hopefully tonight.....first time i've ventured into this sort of stuff.


----------



## Wolfy

Big Nath said:


> I would also love to know how to prepare these vials for use. Have been kindly donated a heap of them from another AHB member and would like to know how other's do it.


As per reply to your other thread, you really need to try and sterilize them.
An autoclave (pressure cooker) works best, otherwise try the Tindalization  procedure.


----------



## Smidgey

Was quite worried for a second there about bumping a well and truly dead thread but then I remembered that it's stickied.

I was reading the chapter on yeast in "How to Brew" by John Palmer a couple of days ago and it mentions that yeast in a sugar rich environment tend to evolve out the ability to process malt because the other sugars are easier to metabolize. It might not happen immediately, but you might see it happen after a few generations I guess.


----------



## raven19

Threads like this one are 'airlocked' accordingly.

I would definately not use any sugar in your yeast starter. Those yeast will chew the sugars first and this will likely effect your attenuation in your beer.

I tend to keep a kg or two of LDME on hand for when I need to prepare a starter.


----------



## Aces High

So I made a starter from 1272 using batz recipe on Monday (my first ever). The smack pack swelled in a couple of hours, I boiled 100g of DME in a litre of water for 5 minutes and let it cool and then mixed everything up in a 2L flagon with just some foil on top. I left it for a couple of days, shaking everytime I walked passed and I would hear some gas escaping, but it never formed any krazen on top and just looked like flat beer. 

I got bored of this on Thursday, thinking a may have killed 100 billion innocent yeaties, and shoved it in my fermenting fridge, when I checked this morning the yeast have flocked and the FG is down to 1012.

Is this starter still viable, I had a quick taste and it doesnt taste off, but I dont know why there was never any krazen. 

I was planning on doing a side by side on a double batch of SMASH with 1272 & US-05 (which ive been mainly using up till now)

Any recommendations?


----------



## [email protected]

Aces High said:


> So I made a starter from 1272 using batz recipe on Monday (my first ever). The smack pack swelled in a couple of hours, I boiled 100g of DME in a litre of water for 5 minutes and let it cool and then mixed everything up in a 2L flagon with just some foil on top. I left it for a couple of days, shaking everytime I walked passed and I would hear some gas escaping, but it never formed any krazen on top and just looked like flat beer.
> 
> I got bored of this on Thursday, thinking a may have killed 100 billion innocent yeaties, and shoved it in my fermenting fridge, when I checked this morning the yeast have flocked and the FG is down to 1012.
> 
> Is this starter still viable, I had a quick taste and it doesnt taste off, but I dont know why there was never any krazen.
> 
> I was planning on doing a side by side on a double batch of SMASH with 1272 & US-05 (which ive been mainly using up till now)
> 
> Any recommendations?



It will be fine, decant spent wort and use the slurry


----------



## einnebcj

Would you spilt a smack pack into four if you are doing 17l stovetop batches? 3 specimen jars with in the fridge and then 1 into a 500ml 50g LDME starter for the upcoming brew.....? Or split into 5?


----------



## Yob

5


----------



## einnebcj

To smack....or not to smack...that is the question

......and one per missable to ask on this forum...but not on a parenting forum.


----------



## Spiesy

Why wouldn't you smack?

The question is - will it break? I'm so over _thinking_ I've broken the smack pack, only to have the pack sit there unrefridgerated for a day, deteriorating.


----------



## bum

Spiesy said:


> Why wouldn't you smack?


When he's talking about splitting? Why would he need to smack?


----------



## JDW81

einnebcj said:


> Would you spilt a smack pack into four if you are doing 17l stovetop batches? 3 specimen jars with in the fridge and then 1 into a 500ml 50g LDME starter for the upcoming brew.....? Or split into 5?


I smack, split into 3 and then make a starter from one pack. Works a treat every time.


----------



## Spiesy

bum said:


> When he's talking about splitting? Why would he need to smack?


Only quoting others more knowledgable than myself, i.e. Jamil's "Yeast" book, but he advocates smacking to rinse the yeast from the pack and give the yeasties a bit of a rev up.

No need to smack. But no reason not to, is how I read that.


----------



## einnebcj

Hence my wondering over smacking. Seems to be a divisive topic. Popular opinion from posts I've read from 09-11 seems to be pro smack and then over the last couple of years, no-smack seems to have come into play and gained popularity. 

Smacked if I know!


----------



## jaypes

I split the pack, then add the smack pack contents to my LDME wort and boil

Always works for me


----------



## bum

Spiesy said:


> Only quoting others more knowledgable than myself, i.e. Jamil's "Yeast" book, but he advocates smacking to rinse the yeast from the pack and give the yeasties a bit of a rev up.
> 
> No need to smack. But no reason not to, is how I read that.


I haven't read the book but I can't imagine why he'd advocate giving the yeast a rev up to put them in a jar and put them to sleep in the fridge.


----------



## 2much2spend

I split the pack, then add the smack pack contents to my LDME wort and boil

Always works for me


WTF!


----------



## TSMill

I'd guess in that context smack pack = nutrient pouch.


----------



## shaunous

Wolfy said:


> As per reply to your other thread, you really need to try and sterilize them.An autoclave (pressure cooker) works best, otherwise try the Tindalization  procedure.


Would like to know if people have had infections from just boiling the vials in a standard pot at an unpressurized 100*c for 15mins which is what I was planning to do.

As long as they are autoclavable vials and you don't end up with a balls of goop in your pot . In my case they are the bulk buy test tube looking vials which are autoclaveable.


----------



## NewtownClown

2much2spend said:


> WTF!


adds the nutrient pouch, not the yeast


----------



## Ciderman

I'm thinking about brewing a porter in the recipe section that calls for 4000ml of Wyeast. Do I need to make a yeast starter?


----------



## MartinOC

4 LITRES(!?!?!?) of yeast???

'Sure that wasn't a fat-finger typing error?


----------



## Eagleburger

only 32 smack packs!


----------



## manticle

4litre starter not 4 litres of yeast 
What volume and gravity is the recipe?


----------



## Ciderman

manticle said:


> 4litre starter not 4 litres of yeast
> What volume and gravity is the recipe?


It's this recipe here... http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/1414-rye-robust-porter/


----------



## manticle

So double batch at 1.073 - hence the requirement for a 4 litre starter. That is not 4 litres of pure yeast.

Are you making the same batch size?


----------



## Ciderman

manticle said:


> So double batch at 1.073 - hence the requirement for a 4 litre starter. That is not 4 litres of pure yeast.
> 
> Are you making the same batch size?


Yeah I knew it wasn't pure yeast. No, I'll do a half batch so I'll need 2000ml. Forgive my ignorance, but a starter is mixing DME, water and yeast?


----------



## manticle

Pretty much. Plenty of guides on how to but look at 100g dme: 1L water.


----------



## Ciderman

manticle said:


> Pretty much. Plenty of guides on how to but look at 100g dme: 1L water.


Thanks for your help. I'll see what I can find on it. How long in advance do you need to make it? Was hoping to brew Saturday but I fear I may have left it too late.


----------



## manticle

Depends on a few factors - freshness of yeast, stirplate/no stirplate, chill/no chill.


----------



## Alex.Tas

Hi guys. I've read through the majority of posts in this thread... But after a succinct answer - if that's possible on a forum!

I've recently purchased a number of smack packs with a friend, and we plan on splitting each one. The first one I plan to split is 4068 wheat. 

I boiled up 4l of 1.040 wort last night and have it sitting in two 2l glass flagons. 

I was planning on pitching whole contents of a smack pack to first flagon, then do the intermittent shaking method. Then when at the right stage, pour half the yeast into the 2nd flagon and repeat the process.

I wanna end up with three pack worth of yeast in three jars.

1. At what stage should I split the whole starter- once I get foam, high krausen or after it's fermented out?

2. Once I get to the stage of splitting, can I just refrigerate to drop the yeast out, decant the liquid and then split the solids?

3. Is there an easier way?

Cheers


----------



## Spiesy

1. After it's fermented out. 
2. Refrigerating will help isolate the yeast from the spent starter.
3. A stir plate and flask make this job a little easier, and arguably give better results.


----------



## TheWiggman

Seeing as this thread's alive and I can't find info on it...

I've done ales in the past but more recently lagers. Since doing lagers, I've started using a stir plate. Previous process was standard 100g:1l with a 3l Erlenmeyer flask. Add yeast, wait 3-4 days and agitate as frequently as possible. Once no bubbles come out when agitated, it's ready to separate and pitch.

With my latest lager I made a 2.5l starter stepped up twice (500ml > 2.5l) using 2042.

500ml for 3 days on stir plate using split yeast. Let sit for 24h at room temp. Decanted some clear liquid off then topped up to 2l with boiled LDM.
2.5l on stir plate for 3 days, then let sit overnight.
All this happened between 14-17°C in the house. There is nowhere warmer.

I noticed the next morning that bubbles were still coming up from the bottom of the flask, so I agitated and it was clear it was still fermenting. I put it back on the stir plate for the day, let it sit once I came home home and noticed it was still fermenting. So I put it back on the stir plate.
All up this went for a week and there still appeared to be fermentation. Is it typical for lager yeasts to take so long on a stir plate? My first approach was 2l for only 48h, so I don't think there was a high enough yeast count and I'm pretty sure based on tasting I underpitched.

If this is common, it basically means I'm going to need to reschedule my yeast management for lagers.


----------



## Yob

Not arguably, will, with a stir plate you are keeping a steady supply of oxygen, shaking doesn't.

Seriously one of the best bits of brewery equipment I ever bought was the stir plate.

While the shake will get you a result, is it the best it could have been? When it comes to yeast health, don't scrimp.


----------



## ianh

Here's how i do it, whether it is easier I don't know but suits my method of brewing.

I smack the Wyeast pack and once it's swelled up split the smack pack into 5 parts.
I store these in my conditioning fridge at 1C.
When I brew I make 1.5 litres extra wort which is used for the yeast starter (all my brews <1.050 OG).
I put the fifth of the smack pack in 500mls of wort in a flask on a stirrer (I think this is very important) for 24 hrs at 18C.
Then add 1000mls of wort to the flask and stir for another 48hours at 18C.
I then remove the stir bar and put the flask in the conditioning fridge.
When needed I decant most of the liquor from the yeast and pour into the fermenter.

I dont know how much success you will have with the intermittent shaking method, to me a flask or similar vessel and a stirrer are the most important things.


----------



## shaunous

I do 1500ml starters for all my beers, standard 23L batch size no matter what the OG normally is, seems to work.

Anyone see a great problem with this?


----------



## TheWiggman

Sounds too simple, you need to complicate it somehow.


----------



## Spiesy

shaunous said:


> I do 1500ml starters for all my beers, standard 23L batch size no matter what the OG normally is, seems to work.
> 
> Anyone see a great problem with this?


Yep.

What about the age of your yeast? What is the concentration of your starter - this will effect growth rate. A 1075OG will have different requirement to that of a 1043OG beer. A lager has different requirement to an ale. Some wheat/wit yeasts like to be underpitched. Etc etc.

Of course, if you're happy with your results - no need to change, but you did ask


----------



## Engibeer

Gents, is this visually enough yeast? 1000ml erlenmeyer flask... 23L ale 1.050 SG.

Wy1272 1/4 of a split pack.

First time using a stir plate....

Pic attached...


----------



## Engibeer

And again


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## Engibeer

It was on the stir plate for 3 days stepped up to 990ml in 330ml increments. Crashed at 2pm.

Sorry about the brievity and 3posts SWMBO is hassling me.


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## TidalPete

As it's for a 1272 (Ale) I'd say it will be fine Engibeer.
Surprisingly enough, TTBOMM I've never actually "smacked" a smack pack but have always split into 4 or more tubes before building up well past the recommended minimum (23 litre batches I think it is?) of 1000ml for ales & 2000mls for lagers just to be sure.
Works for me at 241 AG's & counting!


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## Engibeer

Thanks Pete. She's pitched now. I've only smacked the packs for things I brew infrequently / blends. E.g. Kölsch and I just made a flanders red with 3203-PC.

Up until now I've just been using a clear glass screw top bottle and shaking it. I've never had a problem with this method. 

I sampled some of the liquid when decanting. Sure I could taste benzaldehyde. I think I've read about this but can't remember. No off flavors though. Anyone got a tip on the reason for the benzaldehyde formation? 

Thanks

Matt


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## Engibeer

Must have been sufficient. 10hrs later and the air lock is bubbling once every 1.5 seconds. 

I thought there was some empirical data for cell count based on volume of fresh yeast cake?


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## philmud

Hi guys, doing my first stepped starter (excluding an unscientific & unsuccessful coopers reculture) and I'm unsure about how soon I can step up. I started with 2L in a 3L flask & don't have a stir plate, so am shaking sporadically (shaking the flask, not me shaking like a chihuahua).
Do I wait for each "step" to attenuate fully before adding more wort (I intend to decant the fermented wort)? 
Or, is the reproductive phase over after a period of time and it's reasonable to replace with fresh wort?


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## TheWiggman

Depends on your method. If you're decanting, best to wait until it's fully done its thing and settled on the bottom. That way you're not tossing out some of the babies with the bath water. 
If adding / topping up, wait until that main phase is complete like you say and add the more concentrated mix to the starter so that the resultant gravity of the wort is around 1.040 once mixed.


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## philmud

TheWiggman said:


> Depends on your method. If you're decanting, best to wait until it's fully done its thing and settled on the bottom. That way you're not tossing out some of the babies with the bath water.


I am decanting but plan on cold crashing the starter first to drop out as many "babies" as I can. I guess I just don't want to interrupt the reproductive phase, though if that's likely to be over & done I'd like to move things along. Mr Malty tells me I need a 5L starter which will require 3 steps. Hopefully that's not going to take a week!


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## jbaker9

I made a starter for Bavarian lager for enough cells for 2 x 23L batches (as per BeerSmith). I chilled the starter on Saturday, planning to brew on Sunday. Unfortunately my plans were disrupted, so I'll be brewing next weekend.

I now have enough yeast cells for 46L of lager so I don't need to build it up anymore with a starter. Should I be putting these into a small starter just to reactivate before my brew, or will they be good to go straight to the fermenter after a week refrigerated?

Regards
James


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## Alex.Tas

jbaker9 said:


> I made a starter for Bavarian lager for enough cells for 2 x 23L batches (as per BeerSmith). I chilled the starter on Saturday, planning to brew on Sunday. Unfortunately my plans were disrupted, so I'll be brewing next weekend.
> 
> I now have enough yeast cells for 46L of lager so I don't need to build it up anymore with a starter. Should I be putting these into a small starter just to reactivate before my brew, or will they be good to go straight to the fermenter after a week refrigerated?
> 
> Regards
> James


It will be fine pal. If you can get the yeast to the same temp as the wort temp before you pitch it it would be best. This avoids upsetting the yeast.


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