# Increasing BIAB efficiency.



## falcon250 (31/12/13)

G'day All,

I have recently started using the biab method and am finding that my efficiency is around 60 %, are there any tips or suggestions that others can give to try and increase efficiency?.

My gear consists of:
40 lt Crown urn with concealed element
12" False bottom (to keep bag off the element)
Bag purchased from Grain & Grape
Plastic mash paddle.

Wort is vigorously stirred throughout the mash.

Cheers.


----------



## Camo6 (31/12/13)

How fine is your crush?
Do you do a mashout?
Do you squeeze the bag?
Do you check mash ph?
How long do you mash for?
Have you read the biab threads?

Sorry for all the questions but there's a few variables at play.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/12/13)

How are you measuring your efficiency?
Pre boil? Post boil? Into fermenter? Into packaging?


----------



## timmi9191 (31/12/13)

How accurate is your thermometer? Do you ensure no dough balls at mash in? What is your water to grain ratio? What is your grain bill?


----------



## troopa (31/12/13)

Angry, sounds like your in my boat
Been BIABing for years. Gave it away for a year now back into and hitting solid 60% at end

Answer the questions above to help with getting the numbers up
The only one i can think of to help raise the numbers is to dunk sparge the bag .. i think from memory i was hitting high 70s with a low 80 here and there
Its just not worth the effort in the end. I barely squeeze the bags these days.. So lazy


----------



## stakka82 (31/12/13)

With BIAB I found these two things got my efficiency to low 70's every time, and low 80's with a mashout dunk in another pot (if/when I can be bothered, which is rarely these days):

1. Mill to flour
2. Be totally anal about doughballs when mashing in. I use a 5 buck plastic potato masher which is perfect for breaking them up.

Also don't exceed the capacity of your mash vessel, too much grain in too little volume will see a vast reduction in efficiency and offset any increase in OG you may have expected with extra grain.


----------



## falcon250 (31/12/13)

Camo6 said:


> How fine is your crush? Grain cracked fairly well, but not completely to powder
> Do you do a mashout? Yes, as per beersmith requirements 75c for 10 mins
> Do you squeeze the bag? Yes, I remove the bag, place it in a veg collander then squeeze.
> Do you check mash ph? No, what's the best way to do that?
> ...


----------



## Camo6 (31/12/13)

Cheers, Angry6. ( I knew a NZ girl who liked angry 6)
I wouldn't worry too much about mash PH just yet but it's something to consider if you fall to the darkside. Some simple PH strips can help you tell if your in the right range.
If you have the ability to crack your own grain I'd try crushing it a bit finer and seeing if that improves things.
Liam_snorkel raises a good point about calculating efficiency. Are you using brewing software to calculate and if so is your equipment and measuring devices accurate?
I seemed to have no troubles hitting 70-75% from memory by doing the same as above.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/12/13)

Sounds like you're doing everything right - when you mash out, do you pump/stir it all the way to mash out temp and then lift the bag?

also, are you hitting your expected volumes pre & post boil?


----------



## recharge (31/12/13)

You really need to state where you are calculating your efficiency as stated. 60% into packaging is not too bad, 60% into kettle is not so good.

Rich


----------



## roverfj1200 (31/12/13)

angry6 said:


> Wort is vigorously stirred throughout the mash.


Why would you do this. I mash in cover with some old towels and zip the urn into a old sleeping bag and thats it till mash out..


----------



## recharge (31/12/13)

I stir mine once at 30min then constantly whilst raising temp to mash out. 

Rich


----------



## roverfj1200 (1/1/14)

Sometimes I feel we as brewers over think the process. This can cause us to tinker to much. I have a friend who just throws stuff together no spreadsheets or software. Just guesses. He makes some great beers.

So I guess I'm saying if you do something in your process ask yourself do I need to do it.

As with a mashout with BIAB. If you squeeze the bag I have found a mashout is of no point.

But in the end if it works...


----------



## GABBA110360 (1/1/14)

i'm fairly new a biab so in the beginning I didn't seem to get close enough to the numbers in the recipe i'm using cpa clone and nelson /s /summer ale.
the two things that seem to have got me spot on with the recipe numbers is using ph 5.2 and dunk sparging my bag.
I do 46l batches start with 62l drain 22 of into separate boiler mash in 40l squeeze out dunk rinse in the other preheated to mash temp 22l stirring up and squeezing again.
boil, cube at time for recipe.
SG measure when put in fermenter have been very good .
Gravity start and finish spot on with recipe for n/s/summer ale i'm happy
ken


----------



## fletcher (1/1/14)

1. crush your grain to a flour 2. don't stir your mash 3. mashout if you like but i don't bother, or sparge. not needed 4. squeeze your bag until you get the estimated boil volume 5. make sure you boil off the right amount (trial and error) 6. expect efficiency to drop if brewing a big beer like an IPA or similar. i often add DME to the boil if i haven't hit my pre-boil gravity (not sure if that's correct but it always works for me).


----------



## recharge (1/1/14)

My thinking with the mash out is you have to heat to those temps anyway so you may as well leave the bag in there. I don't rest at mash out temps just leave the heat going whilst I pull the bag and squeeze.

Rich


----------



## fletcher (1/1/14)

recharge said:


> My thinking with the mash out is you have to heat to those temps anyway so you may as well leave the bag in there. I don't rest at mash out temps just leave the heat going whilst I pull the bag and squeeze.
> 
> Rich


100%


----------



## roverfj1200 (1/1/14)

recharge said:


> My thinking with the mash out is you have to heat to those temps anyway so you may as well leave the bag in there. I don't rest at mash out temps just leave the heat going whilst I pull the bag and squeeze.
> 
> Rich


Yes I have done brews with and without and found no real gain. I do however do a mash out and as you say turn on the heat and pull the bag as it passes the mashout temp. Most times throw in the first hops after I raise the bag as a kinda FWH..

Cheers


----------



## falcon250 (1/1/14)

recharge said:


> You really need to state where you are calculating your efficiency as stated. 60% into packaging is not too bad, 60% into kettle is not so good.
> 
> Rich


G.day Rich,

I set the efficiency in beersmith to 60% which stated in the alcohol percentage to give me 5.9% a/v, I achieved this exactly so I figured it was pretty close.


----------



## recharge (1/1/14)

angry6 said:


> G.day Rich,
> 
> I set the efficiency in beersmith to 60% which stated in the alcohol percentage to give me 5.9% a/v, I achieved this exactly so I figured it was pretty close.


I can't comment on beersmith as I don't use it. I use the Biabacus to calculate my beers and hit targets within a couple of points other than that I don't stress. I think the most important thing is to work out how your process works for you and adjust accordingly. So if you start following some tips above and your preboil gravity is going up then start adjusting your software to suit. 

Rich


----------



## jakethesnake559 (2/1/14)

As mentioned above, the mash-out is a major factor in improving BIAB efficiency.

My process is always a 90min mash (I usually lose 2 degrees using blanket and sleeping bag).
After the mash, I crank the urn back up and gently stir continuously until the temperature gets to around 75oC.
The stirring is really only to move the grain around a bit and ensure there are no hot-spots.
Then pull the bag and sit it somewhere to drip drain (I use a upside-down colander in a bucket).

A mash-out stops enzyme action, but importantly for BIAB also makes the wort more fluid...this means it drains easier from the bag.

Adding this step improved my efficiency by 5%-10%.

Mash-out! :beerbang:


----------



## fletcher (2/1/14)

i've tried a few times to mash out and most were unsuccessful.

i didn't stir though and this was probably my error because the wort below the bag almost got to boil, but the wort above was kept insulated by the grains and only got to about 70ish. wasn't until i lifted the bag and checked and almost gave myself a nasty burn! after you've reached 75C, do you let it rest for 10 mins or something?

might try your method jake. maybe it'll help


----------



## lukiferj (2/1/14)

jakethesnake559 said:


> As mentioned above, the mash-out is a major factor in improving BIAB efficiency.
> 
> My process is always a 90min mash (I usually lose 2 degrees using blanket and sleeping bag).
> After the mash, I crank the urn back up and gently stir continuously until the temperature gets to around 75oC.
> ...


I do pretty much the same thing. I mash out at 78 degrees and squeeze the bag too. Increased my efficiency by almost 10%


----------



## recharge (2/1/14)

I stir all the way up to mash out temp. But i have to hold my thermometer anyway. I can't say it increased my efficiency because I have always done this.

Rich


----------



## manticle (2/1/14)

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/10/26/brewhouse-efficiency-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/

There's also a link there with some tips for improving.


----------



## Camo6 (2/1/14)

Same as above. I pumped the mash with a paint stirrer till I hit 78*c then let it sit for 5-10mins. Always did it this way so can't tell how effective it was but efficiency was usually mid 70s. I did stop squeezing the bag in the end and would just let it drain for 40mins and didnt notice any considerable drop in efficiency.


----------



## Midnight Brew (2/1/14)

Back to mash PH, you might need to add in some brewing salts to achieve a better mash ph which should improve overall mash efficiency. Everything else looks pretty normal to me after a quick read through of the thread.


----------



## hugcra (5/5/14)

jakethesnake559, on 02 Jan 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:




jakethesnake559 said:


> As mentioned above, the mash-out is a major factor in improving BIAB efficiency.
> 
> My process is always a 90min mash (I usually lose 2 degrees using blanket and sleeping bag).
> After the mash, I crank the urn back up and gently stir continuously until the temperature gets to around 75oC.
> ...


Im similar to this as well.
Ive found a longer mash helps heaps.
Stirring occasionally helps with consistent temps, and making sure all the grain is at the right temp, as Ive found the temp to be higher closer to the element etc. 

After lifting the bag I pour over 70* water, then squeeze when it has stopped dripping

I hit 70-75-80% consistently.

Im going to add a pump and recirculate into the bag to help clear the wort and help the temps stay the same. But really im doing it because I love adding/building things to add to the rig...


----------



## Blitzer (5/5/14)

fletcher said:


> 1. crush your grain to a flour 2. don't stir your mash 3. mashout if you like but i don't bother, or sparge. not needed 4. squeeze your bag until you get the estimated boil volume 5. make sure you boil off the right amount (trial and error) 6. expect efficiency to drop if brewing a big beer like an IPA or similar. i often add DME to the boil if i haven't hit my pre-boil gravity (not sure if that's correct but it always works for me).


I have to ask the question of point 2. Why should you not stir your mash? never heard this one before.


----------



## fletcher (5/5/14)

i stir it a LOT when i dough in to mix it right up and make sure there are no dough balls or pockets etc if that's what you mean but i don't constantly stir it or stir it heaps of times throughout the mash so i don't lose temp. i probably could have outlined that more.


----------



## flano (5/5/14)

I had good efficiency with crushed grain from the home brew shop ...then got my own monster mill and it went to crap.
I readjusted the rollers and double crushed my grain to get it to almost to flour and all is good again.
Also.. make sure there is no dough balls and clumps during mash in.


----------



## Wilkensone (5/5/14)

Flano said:


> I had good efficiency with crushed grain from the home brew shop ...then got my own monster mill and it went to crap.
> I readjusted the rollers and double crushed my grain to get it to almost to flour and all is good again.
> Also.. make sure there is no dough balls and clumps during mash in.


Whats the point of using a bag to contain flour?


----------



## fletcher (5/5/14)

Wilkensone said:


> Whats the point of using a bag to contain flour?


the bag has nothing to do with it. the bag is there to hold and then dispose of the grain when required, whether it's ground to a flour or not.


----------



## bundy (6/5/14)

Fletcher - You might want to listen to this Podcast - http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

Crushing grain to flour is one of the worst things you can do for BIAB or any AG for that matter.

It means the husks which contain tannins impart undesirable flavours into your beer. As I was explained to me - "Grain is like Sugar Cane - the goodness is inside the husk. Like Sugar cane you want to unlock that goodness but you dont want to take the woody cane with the sugar. 

Below is the exact quote which I thought is a fantastic analogy. 

_"Your grain is a vessel of sugar surrounded by wood. Just think about that for a second because I am getting tired of telling people not to crush fine.
Let's say the lignin / wood is crappy stuff full of tannins, which it is. Do you really want to grind that up and put it in your beer? 
Imagine your grains as sugar cane. If you know what sugar cane is, you know you just want to bend it to release the sweetness. Break it and you'll get little."_

So you may want to reconsider the "Flour" method of milling. 

If you are not already doing it a 90 minute Mash (Which is what is recommended) That will help with efficiencies. However there's lots of other variables too that are just as important, such as the quality of your recipe. Your evaporation rate etc etc


----------



## fletcher (6/5/14)

bundy said:


> Fletcher - You might want to listen to this Podcast - http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio
> 
> Crushing grain to flour is one of the worst things you can do for BIAB or any AG for that matter.
> 
> ...


that's interesting, because i can't taste these undesirable flavours in my beers when doing this, nor can others.

how are tannins picked up by a discernible tongue? are they noticed immediately? over time? are they a small component of an off-flavour? do they offer their own off-flavour? i've had no one tell me "oh that beer is rife with tannin-ness" or anything along those lines/in that general school of thought, so i think (again, think and not know) that it's a case of personal taste; if a case at all. i do not notice a difference in newer beers i've made without crushing it to flour, and with those that were crushed to flour.

i wouldn't write this if someone had mentioned something to me about any off-flavour. i'm my own worst critic and quite anal with my beers' flavours and want to get to the bottom of ANY off-flavour immediately.


----------



## bundy (7/5/14)

fletcher said:


> that's interesting, because i can't taste these undesirable flavours in my beers when doing this, nor can others.
> 
> how are tannins picked up by a discernible tongue? are they noticed immediately? over time? are they a small component of an off-flavour? do they offer their own off-flavour? i've had no one tell me "oh that beer is rife with tannin-ness" or anything along those lines/in that general school of thought, so i think (again, think and not know) that it's a case of personal taste; if a case at all. i do not notice a difference in newer beers i've made without crushing it to flour, and with those that were crushed to flour.
> 
> i wouldn't write this if someone had mentioned something to me about any off-flavour. i'm my own worst critic and quite anal with my beers' flavours and want to get to the bottom of ANY off-flavour immediately.


I haven't tasted or seen the affects of tannins so cant comment personally. A quick Google though gets plenty of hits.
This was one article from beersmith with an associated reply - 

_"I’d add that even if your temps and pH are in line, grist crush and wort clarity also impact tannin extraction. If you’re getting shredded husk material, you’re more likely to extract excessive tannins. If you get a lot of those grain material into the boil kettle, you can extract excessive tannins that way too. I had a run of about 7 very astringent beers I traced back to shredded husks and poor lautering."_


http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/06/19/phenolics-and-tannins-in-home-brewed-beer/

But ultimately its up to you how you mill.

I was just pointing out the fact it is not considered best practice and can cause issues.


----------



## mrsupraboy (7/5/14)

jakethesnake559 said:


> As mentioned above, the mash-out is a major factor in improving BIAB efficiency.
> 
> My process is always a 90min mash (I usually lose 2 degrees using blanket and sleeping bag).
> After the mash, I crank the urn back up and gently stir continuously until the temperature gets to around 75oC.
> ...


Probably a dumb question but what's mashout. Are u saying you mash at 75'c then at 90 Min u warm it back up to 75c while stiring and move the bag for draining


----------



## bundy (7/5/14)

mrsupraboy said:


> Probably a dumb question but what's mashout. Are u saying you mash at 75'c then at 90 Min u warm it back up to 75c while stiring and move the bag for draining


You pretty much have it. Basically once finished mashing at say 66 degrees for your 90 mins, You then raise the temp to ~ 75 degrees whilst the bag is still immersed. Then you pull the bag and drain as per normal.

Only thing is don't apply heat directly to the bag, That means you need to raise the bag a little from your heat source before adding extra heat for the mash-out. Otherwise you may end up with a scorched bag, or worse hole in your bag and grain everywhere!


----------



## rehabs_for_quitters (7/5/14)

This is not me just cheating but John Palmer explains it really well and its easily understandable

*What is Mashout?*
Before the sweet wort is drained from the mash and the grain is rinsed (sparged) of the residual sugars, many brewers perform a mashout. Mashout is the term for raising the temperature of the mash to 170°F prior to lautering. This step stops all of the enzyme action (preserving your fermentable sugar profile) and makes the grainbed and wort more fluid. For most mashes with a ratio of 1.5-2 quarts of water per pound of grain, the mashout is not needed. The grainbed will be loose enough to flow well. For a thicker mash, or a mash composed of more than 25% of wheat or oats, a mashout may be needed to prevent a Set Mash/Stuck Sparge. This is when the grain bed plugs up and no liquid will flow through it. A mashout helps prevent this by making the sugars more fluid; like the difference between warm and cold honey. The mashout step can be done using external heat or by adding hot water according to the multi-rest infusion calculations. (See chapter 16.) A lot of homebrewers tend to skip the mashout step for most mashes with no consequences.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html%C2 is the page it came from its a good read


----------



## Liam_snorkel (7/5/14)

please read the following post by user Thirsty Boy regarding the mashout & BIAB:



Thirsty Boy said:


> > The purpose of the mashout is to a) Denature the enzymes and lock in the sugar profile & B) make the mash runnier.
> >
> > point a) would make me think that the 10 minutes is to ensure all the enzymes are killed & to ensure all of it has reached that temp so there aren't any dense colder spots left over.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (7/5/14)

Excellent post Liam.

For the record, when I was BIABing using the nick JD method, I did a sort of batch sparge thing, whereby I'd stick the drained bag in a colander/pasta pot over a 9L pot (or my 2nd Big W pot), and run boiled kettle water over it a few times, stirring the resultant (2nd) mash. My kettle at the time maxed at 81 degrees (current does 80 degrees, which I measured again three days ago).

Hitting high 70s/low 80s every time.

And I avoided the burnt hands from squeezing.


----------



## fletcher (7/5/14)

bundy said:


> I haven't tasted or seen the affects of tannins so cant comment personally. A quick Google though gets plenty of hits.
> This was one article from beersmith with an associated reply -
> 
> _"I’d add that even if your temps and pH are in line, grist crush and wort clarity also impact tannin extraction. If you’re getting shredded husk material, you’re more likely to extract excessive tannins. If you get a lot of those grain material into the boil kettle, you can extract excessive tannins that way too. I had a run of about 7 very astringent beers I traced back to shredded husks and poor lautering."_
> ...


cheers mate. at this stage, i haven't honestly noticed a difference. i would like to perhaps give the same batch, one with flour and one without, to an experienced judge or taster and really see if they can find a difference. would be great to find out. i appreciate it's not best practice. the main reason i began grinding to flour was because of Nick JD's method and that i'd read it could be done. it gave some amazing beers and i had a cheap crusher at home so didn't need to fork out $200+ for a mill. i can certainly say that now with access to a mill i use it. not largely because it's considered best practice, but because it's a shit load faster than using my mini coffee grinder.

looking at your quote though, it seems to be talking about the grain material in the kettle. with BIAB, none of this grain material is (or should be) in the kettle after the bag is hoisted. it then goes on to talk about lautering; mostly done with multi-vessel systems, not BIAB. perhaps it's been noticed more with this latter aspect of poor lautering. having a whole chunk of grain/husks in the boil and not specifically BIAB.


----------



## bundy (7/5/14)

fletcher said:


> looking at your quote though, it seems to be talking about the grain material in the kettle. with BIAB, none of this grain material is (or should be) in the kettle after the bag is hoisted. it then goes on to talk about lautering; mostly done with multi-vessel systems, not BIAB. perhaps it's been noticed more with this latter aspect of poor lautering. having a whole chunk of grain/husks in the boil and not specifically BIAB.


The grain material or husk you talk about is definitely in touch with water during the Mash so be it 3V or BIAB the concerns are the same with tannins leaching from the husk into your Liquor / Wort from too fine a crush. Just with 3V it would also cause other issues with a stuck sparge more likley.

I agree the post also states you can get tannins if you heat or boil your Husk as that practice will also leach tannins (Hence the need to limit any Mash-out to below 78 degrees as that is the critical temp where tannins will also leach out)

So the comment describes 2 scenarios on how tannins can leach into your beer. 1 - Too fine a crush and 2 excessive temp on your grain.

Bottom line though if its not causing you problems that's good, but I think it fair to point out to others its not best practice.


----------

