# Does a Lager yeast make heavy Krauzen?



## Byran (10/7/13)

I recently made up a beer with a slurry of WLP800 pilsen lager yeast.
It produced crazy amounts of yeasty foam that invaded my ferment fridge.
I thought this was a bottom fermenting yeast and if so why all the top fermenting.

I pitched another beer onto the yeast cake and it's worse. A lot worse. Even a 8 deg C its having a party in the fermenter and spewing yeasty goodness everywhere. I have to check it daily. This has not happened before.
Just asking for some opinions as I couldn't find any other info on this yeast behaving like this..... Perhaps its contaminated with an ale.....


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## chefeffect (10/7/13)

Got a picture? Sounds strange, i don't believe an ale yeast would do much at that temp if mixed with a lager yeast, pitching on the old yeast cake would just magnify the last problem really.


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## donburke (10/7/13)

its unlikely an ale yeast working at low temps

a big pitch (possibly too much) can create a large krausen, and in particular create a fair bit of heat from the exothermic reaction of fermentation

your wort may be warmer than the fridge controller might be reading

how much yeast did you pitch and at what temp was the wort when you pitched ?


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## Byran (10/7/13)

I was just thinkin of posting a pic but its dropped out today so I cant. Just strange ive fermented a few lagers and this one just seems to be going absolutely crazy. It did go really hard the second time but I only pitched a bit of the old cake not the whole thing. The first one fermented clean as can be tastes great, the second one seems to be producing some sulfur, but its dissipating with a rest. Just made soooo much yeats foam. Constant, hordes.


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## Byran (10/7/13)

Oh don it was pitched at about 12 deg C onto a bout 2 cups of slurry left over. Then dropped to 9 deg C. Felt cold, really cold to touch. Dropped more to make it slow down. Kept going all guns blazing. Ive never seen anything quite like it. I think it may have been over pitched I didnt measure it. 23 L batch. Just never seen so much yeast on top with a lager. wanted to know if anyone else had any observations or advice to lend.


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## Byran (10/7/13)

Its almost as if it just kept in the reproductive phase. Forever.


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## Byran (10/7/13)

Ok I just looked on mr maltys calculator and Its seems I have overpitched the **** out of it. 4 times too much.
Well there you go. So much for guessing...........


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## donburke (10/7/13)

Byran said:


> Oh don it was pitched at about 12 deg C onto a bout 2 cups of slurry left over. Then dropped to 9 deg C. Felt cold, really cold to touch. Dropped more to make it slow down. Kept going all guns blazing. Ive never seen anything quite like it. I think it may have been over pitched I didnt measure it. 23 L batch. Just never seen so much yeast on top with a lager. wanted to know if anyone else had any observations or advice to lend.


2 cups of fresh slurry is way overpitched, i'd say thats why it foaming like dimi does when he sees a valiant

if it tastes good then thats all that matters

i'm doing a euro lager this saturday, 50% floor malted pils, 50% dingemans pils, saaz, 40 litres ferment with bohemian lager & 40 litres fermented with kolsch

i'm excited as i havent brewed in 3 months

how you been mate ? its been a while


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## slash22000 (10/7/13)

For a start, pitching straight onto a yeast cake is overpitching the yeast by like 20x the necessary amount. That might explain why it's exploding, but I don't know jack about lager yeasts, as far as I'm concerned they are some kind of black magic, so there might be some other mystical explanation.


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## donburke (10/7/13)

if its still going berko, drop the temp to 5 degrees until the krausen starts to come back, then raise it back to 10 to finish off


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## Byran (10/7/13)

Haha ha Yeh it seems my guessing has caused me some bother. It was only 2 cups of slurry not the whole cake, but I really only need half a cup for a lager yeast as per Mr malty. Well trial and error has got the better of me this timne. Still tastes ok though so lucky me.


Don, mate dimi hasnt even pitched the wheat cube you gave him last year........... But he has had time to buy a new house, new car, put new parts on the new car, have may Bbqs, ect. Ha ha, im pretty keen to make a choc porter and a mild. Im sure you will have no problem, filling your kegs again, how many is there now, 20? Ill come round for a brew arvo if your keen?


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## Parks (10/7/13)

The krausen will just be wort foam the same as you get when you aerate.

donburke - 2 cups of yeast slurry would be correct pitching rate for a lager (assuming slurry means everything left in the fermenter after a batch). 2 cups of actual clean yeast would be a shedload.


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## Byran (10/7/13)

Parks said:


> The krausen will just be wort foam the same as you get when you aerate.
> 
> donburke - 2 cups of yeast slurry would be correct pitching rate for a lager (assuming slurry means everything left in the fermenter after a batch). 2 cups of actual clean yeast would be a shedload.


I thought about that mate, it just seemed like yeast so I said **** it, and I top cropped a jar of it to confirm. It looks like a clean top cropped jar of fresh yeast to me. But like I said, I have used this yeast before and other lager yeasts and cant remember this happening. Overpitching makes sense....but im no expert.


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## donburke (10/7/13)

Parks said:


> The krausen will just be wort foam the same as you get when you aerate.
> 
> donburke - 2 cups of yeast slurry would be correct pitching rate for a lager (assuming slurry means everything left in the fermenter after a batch). 2 cups of actual clean yeast would be a shedload.


mr malty reckons a thick slurry at 25% non yeast requires about 120ml for a fresh harvest, assuming 23 litres of 1.048

given the results he's experiencing, i'd say its an overpitch


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## Byran (10/7/13)

Thats how I interpreted the mr malty calcs as well. I just thought it would be ok and here we are.......... Im silly


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## donburke (10/7/13)

Byran said:


> Haha ha Yeh it seems my guessing has caused me some bother. It was only 2 cups of slurry not the whole cake, but I really only need half a cup for a lager yeast as per Mr malty. Well trial and error has got the better of me this timne. Still tastes ok though so lucky me.
> 
> 
> Don, mate dimi hasnt even pitched the wheat cube you gave him last year........... But he has had time to buy a new house, new car, put new parts on the new car, have may Bbqs, ect. Ha ha, im pretty keen to make a choc porter and a mild. Im sure you will have no problem, filling your kegs again, how many is there now, 20? Ill come round for a brew arvo if your keen?


i think we need to brew a triple batch of a 1.100 beer, its been a year since our last one, hard to overpitch that !


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## Parks (10/7/13)

donburke said:


> mr malty reckons a thick slurry at 25% non yeast requires about 120ml for a fresh harvest, assuming 23 litres of 1.048
> 
> given the results he's experiencing, i'd say its an overpitch


Yeah, could be. 

I know all the guys I have talked to have always said "1 cup of slurry for an ale" and these are experienced brewers. My expectations with that are generally 1 cup will have probably 1/2 cup of leftover beer and then the non yeast portion.

I also thought (going against my first argument a little...) that Mr Malty gives you a pitching rate which will leave no growth phase when you pitch.


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## Parks (10/7/13)

Byran said:


> I thought about that mate, it just seemed like yeast so I said **** it, and I top cropped a jar of it to confirm. It looks like a clean top cropped jar of fresh yeast to me. But like I said, I have used this yeast before and other lager yeasts and cant remember this happening. Overpitching makes sense....but im no expert.


I never seem to get enough yeast into lagers so in some ways I'd be excited to see this 

I have a feeling there is a big difference strain-to-strain on how they behave.


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## Byran (10/7/13)

donburke said:


> i think we need to brew a triple batch of a 1.100 beer, its been a year since our last one, hard to overpitch that !


A belgian of some description? Or maybe something experimental?


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## donburke (10/7/13)

Parks said:


> Yeah, could be.
> 
> I know all the guys I have talked to have always said "1 cup of slurry for an ale" and these are experienced brewers. My expectations with that are generally 1 cup will have probably 1/2 cup of leftover beer and then the non yeast portion.
> 
> I also thought (going against my first argument a little...) that Mr Malty gives you a pitching rate which will leave no growth phase when you pitch.


i dont often pitch from slurry, but when i do i try to seperate the trub, then pour the yeast in a schott bottle which has measurements on it, gives a good idea of how much pure yeast is in there after it settles

my understanding of mr malty is that it allows for the growth of the colony in the fermenter, and that you should pitch what it comes up with


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## Byran (10/7/13)

Parks said:


> Yeah, could be.
> 
> I know all the guys I have talked to have always said "1 cup of slurry for an ale" and these are experienced brewers. My expectations with that are generally 1 cup will have probably 1/2 cup of leftover beer and then the non yeast portion.
> 
> I also thought (going against my first argument a little...) that Mr Malty gives you a pitching rate which will leave no growth phase when you pitch.


Well I can defiantly say that there was pretty much all yeast in the slurry I drained all the beer off and added a cup of water to break it up. Drained of the first cup and chucked it. Then used 2 cups of fresh stuff for the next batch. I just assumed it was all cool. I shall not do this again. Oh I also drank about 10 tappys before I done this which could explain a lot.


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## Parks (10/7/13)

donburke said:


> i dont often pitch from slurry, but when i do i try to seperate the trub, then pour the yeast in a schott bottle which has measurements on it, gives a good idea of how much pure yeast is in there after it settles
> 
> my understanding of mr malty is that it allows for the growth of the colony in the fermenter, and that you should pitch what it comes up with


Yeah, when I collect a cup it's most likely only 1/3 cup of pure yeast so the numbers add up. I'm not sure but I remember Mr Malty giving me much higher values when I last used it (like make a 10L starter for a 22L batch).



Byran said:


> Well I can defiantly say that there was pretty much all yeast in the slurry I drained all the beer off and added a cup of water to break it up. Drained of the first cup and chucked it. Then used 2 cups of fresh stuff for the next batch. I just assumed it was all cool. I shall not do this again. Oh I also drank about 10 tappys before I done this which could explain a lot.


Don't be defiant :lol:

Let us know how it turns out anyway, I'd like to know if/how it negatively impacts the beer.


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## Byran (10/7/13)

Lol Auto correct has mashed my words as usual as I am a beginner level typer
I will post a flavour update when possible.


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## donburke (10/7/13)

Parks said:


> Yeah, when I collect a cup it's most likely only 1/3 cup of pure yeast so the numbers add up. I'm not sure but I remember Mr Malty giving me much higher values when I last used it (like make a 10L starter for a 22L batch).
> 
> 
> Don't be defiant :lol:
> ...


10 litres is probably right, depending on age of yeast

mrmalty doesnt allow for steps, so i prefer to use yeastcalc

by example, i'm preparing for this weekends brew, the lager ferment of 40 litres of 1.048 using a 3 month old pack of wy2124 goes like this

1 litre starter on stirplate with 30 sec shot of o2 into headspace
24 hours
pour entire contents into 2.5 litres fresh wort, 30 sec o2 and onto stirplate
48 hours
rest, decant wort, rouse slurry and pour into 4 litres fresh wort, 30 sec o2 and onto stirplate

when done, rest and pitch slurry only


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## Byran (10/7/13)

I really need dimi to get me an o2 bottle Im gonna make a stirplate too. I like makin stuff


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## fletcher (11/7/13)

Byran said:


> Ok I just looked on mr maltys calculator and Its seems I have overpitched the **** out of it. 4 times too much.
> Well there you go. So much for guessing...........


haha, that post just cracked me up. shouldn't be bad though right? are there any disadvantages of over pitching?


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## Byran (11/7/13)

It seems so fletcher. I have had a fermenter that was behaving like a giant starter for a week keeping my yeast in the growth phase and creating a nice yeast farming device. It seems to have tapered off now and I have noticed quite a lot of DMS and sulphur produced but with such a large amount of yeast I would assume that most of the nutrients would have been eaten up which explains that. I have been Dresting this batch for a few days and it is fixing itself up. But there does seem to be a bit of a coarse flavour to the batch which is not exactly ideal as when using a lager yeast this is the exact flavour you are trying to avoid. Coarseness is for ales......... 

I think ill be measuring my yeast from now on it will prob help my beers out a lot.


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## Byran (22/7/13)

This beer turned out fantastic. Although I would have preferred it to not have had so much DMS it took a while to clean up. The carbonation got rid of the left overs and it tastes nice. 
Lucky me.


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