# My First A.g Tomorrow



## datman510 (3/10/08)

So tomorrows the big day, ive completed all of 2 K & K brews and found myself wanting more. So i got some gear together and am good to go. I've read almost every single booklet PDF's on here and watched heaps on youtube, spoke to everyone i know about how to go about it and wound up ridiculously confused. So i took a bit from everything and have written out a basic step by step plan.

The recipe im going for is the LCBA by Tony (26lt batch) so next is my steps please give me some pointers, the recipe itself is not so much of a concern as tomorrow is more about the process itself (basically i dont care what hops ect). so here tis summarised...

1. 15 litres strike water to 76c to hit a mash temp of 66c
2. put water in tun for afew minutes to preheat.
3. Add grain, stir thoroughly take temp and adjust to 66 - 67c leave 60 mins.
4. Boil 22lts sparge water to 80c, add 7 odd litres for first batch sparge run.
5. Add remaining 15 lts for second run stir and sit for 5 - 10 miutes then second run. should have collected 32 lts by this stage hopefully.
6. Start boil after 1st run and add second after... bring to boil (duh)

this is where im getting lots of diff info....

the first hop addition is at 45 min remaining once at the boil, boil for for 90 total? adding the first hops at 45 minute mark?

this is the only part im truly unclear on.


7. once all hops are in and boil is finished cool with immersion cooler down to below 25.... transfer to fermenter from a decent height to help aerate.... pitch bobs your uncle. or is it?



Much appreciated 

Gareth


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## razz (3/10/08)

Good luck Gareth. How did you calculate your additions ? Are you using Promash or Beersmith ?


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## datman510 (3/10/08)

i didnt, i just kind made it up........ where can i find these accurate calculations? or the formula?


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## razz (3/10/08)

You can download trial versions of either, I use Beersmith. If you use any type of brewing software you will be able to accurately calculate how much water to put in one end and get the right amount of wort into the fermenter at the other end.


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## datman510 (3/10/08)

can anyone help me with the boil question i had above?


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## datman510 (3/10/08)

85......... check. basically what im asking is that if im boiling for 60 mins and the recipe says fisrt hops 45 minutes that means once boiling wait 15 minutes then the rest from there? other than that awesome....


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## Duff (3/10/08)

larry66 said:


> the first hop addition is at 45 min remaining once at the boil, boil for for 90 total? adding the first hops at 45 minute mark?



That is correct. Boil for 45min then add your first hop addition, which relates to 45min remaining in a 90min boil  

Good luck.


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## haysie (3/10/08)

larry66 said:


> 85......... check. basically what im asking is that if im boiling for 60 mins and the recipe says fisrt hops 45 minutes that means once boiling wait 15 minutes then the rest from there? other than that awesome....


thats it larry, you have it scammed already


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## datman510 (3/10/08)

i'll start my seminars soon..... watch this space :huh:


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## rwmingis (3/10/08)

Good luck Gareth!

Don't fret about it, it will go fine, just pay attention to the process, and what's the rule, something like don't crack your first one open until flame on or flame out? Given that it's a 90min boil better make it flame out! ^_^ 

For simplicity, the strike water temperature is a function of the grain to water ratio typically, there's heaps of calculations on the web. Of course you'll probably have to convert your units to gallons, slugs, pounds and pecks to make the online ones work! If you miss the temperature by a degree or two, it's usually no biggie, especially for the first one, but try and keep it below 68C. If you go above it for a little while, no big deal, just let it cool back down.

And no, i'm not gunna say "Relax, don't worry - have a home brew". Maybe we should have an AHB motto to replace this one! At risk of going off topic, any suggestions?

Cheers,

Rob


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## Kleiny (3/10/08)

Good luck

take it slow and think about the process and you wont have a big hassel
Once you have done it once you find its not as hard as you thought


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## MCT (3/10/08)

Brewing Bob said:


> And no, i'm not gunna say "Relax, don't worry - have a home brew". Maybe we should have an AHB motto to replace this one! At risk of going off topic, any suggestions?



HTFU?


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## goodbrew (3/10/08)

larry66 said:


> 4. Boil 22lts sparge water to 80c, add 7 odd litres for first batch sparge run.


if your going to do a mash out, you might want to have your water at boiling for the first bit. I need about 8-10lt of boiling water to get my mash up to 75c.

cheers :beer: 
John


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## hoohaaman (3/10/08)

Good luck with your 1st AG mate,may many more follow.

Give a man a beer and his happy for 10 minutes,teach a man to brew and his happy for lifetime


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## Swinging Beef (3/10/08)

methods read sound to me.
good luck and hope it all goes well. :icon_cheers:


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

you guys rule, always there for me... im getting all emotional.


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## Cocko (4/10/08)

Larry,

Why are you going a 90 min boil and not just 60?

Don't get me wrong I don't know any better but just curious....

BTW: Good luck, enjoy AND don't forget to post the pics!!

Cheers
Cocko!


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## matti (4/10/08)

Good morning and good luck Larry.

Your question regarding the boil. You are using Pils malt so 90 minutes is spot on.
(This is to drive off the DMS, Cocko)
Hop additions are as you assumed from, minutes from end of boil/ flame out.

I don't know what set up you have, but first runnings should be slow to allow the grain bed to set then go as fast as you wish since you batch sparge.

Enjoy


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## Effect (4/10/08)

MCT said:


> HTFU?



+1


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## The King of Spain (4/10/08)

larry66 said:


> this is where im getting lots of diff info....
> 
> the first hop addition is at 45 min remaining once at the boil, boil for for 90 total? adding the first hops at 45 minute mark?
> 
> ...



Not sure your question has been answered. Thre is no point in boiling for 45 before adding any hops. You will achieve a satisfactory hot break after a few minutes, after that add your first bittering hops. I can see why you may be confused, 45min is not very long for first hops but that's what the recipe says.

Cheers
KOS


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

ive started the boil........ one tip for all you thinking of stating AG.. give you wife/girlfriend $100 and tell her to Fark off for the day!!!!! whts this do? can you give me a hand for a sec? oooh that stinks what is it? can i make a sandwich?........................... GET RID OF HER!!!!!!!! 

G


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## matti (4/10/08)

Hahaha....
Get her involved or get her busy elsewhere.
I had the same problem a couple of years ago.
I then asked her if she would rather have me home or should I take up golf again.....  
Problem 1/2 solved...
Though I must admit I tend to brew when she is out rather then when she is home.
Luvely as they are......
You will find that once your a little better organised you'll have time for sandwich making and and mowing the lawn etc.
happy brewing


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

could i get some advise please just finished the all grain brew but only managed to finish with 17 lts? i used promash to calulate everything and ive come up 9 lts short? what should i do? top it up with water?


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## Frank (4/10/08)

larry66 said:


> could i get some advise please just finished the all grain brew but only managed to finish with 17 lts? i used promash to calulate everything and ive come up 9 lts short? what should i do? top it up with water?



Check the SG of the cool wort (place tube in fridge).

What alcohol level are you aiming for?

What yeast are you using?


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

the sg is 1051

not sure dont care about the alcohol level today was more about my first AG but falling that short is concerning me.

yeast is safale us-05


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## Frank (4/10/08)

larry66 said:


> the sg is 1051
> 
> not sure dont care about the alcohol level today was more about my first AG but falling that short is concerning me.
> 
> yeast is safale us-05



Add 1L of water, this should drop SG to 1.048, giving ABV 4.7%, if ferment down to 1.012. 
Don't add any more than that, beer will be too thin.

Go back over you procedures at the end of the day. Don't stress, better to have a tasty 18L than watery 26L. Your beer will have a higher IBU witht the smaller volume though.


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

ibu? could you please explain?


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## Frank (4/10/08)

larry66 said:


> ibu? could you please explain?



International Bitterness Units.
Level of bitterness from your Hop additions. 
Hop addition has now been concentrated. Nothing too be concerned over. I am sure it will be fine.


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## white.grant (4/10/08)

Relax its your first ag, plenty more where they come from  .

First couple of brews are a bit experimental. You'll still need to dial in your rig so you know just exactly how much you'll be losing to dead space in your tun and kettle evaporation rate. Beersmith defaults to 4% of boil but I find I lose a lot more. Say if you lost 3l in your tun and another 3l to evaporation and 3l to trub, there's your shortfall. You'll want to add this into your calculations for next time.

You can add more water to the wort to make up volume but this will impact upon you specific gravity, if 1052 is higher than you wanted then some dilution will be fine. 

cheers

grant


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

thanks guys, so in short i should sparge an extra 9 litres next time? believe it or not that was the only problem.... so far


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## Frank (4/10/08)

larry66 said:


> thanks guys, so in short i should sparge an extra 9 litres next time? believe it or not that was the only problem.... so far



Your efficiency might be a bit lower than the recipe you were following as well.
If you stilll have your mash handy, I am assuming you have not cleaned up yet. See if you can drain off enough wort to fill your hydrometer tube and check the SG (and taste). This will see if you have left any sugars behind. If the SG is only 1.002 or around this number, you have sparged as much as required and will need more grain to start next time. If your SG is higher sparging with more water next time is required.


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## warra48 (4/10/08)

Falling short on your first AG seems to be a common occurance, and I fell short on my first AG by about the same amount as you. I think the grains absorb more than the mythical 1 litre/kg, IMHO closer to 1.5 litres/kg. 
Did you allow for dead space in your mash/lauter tun in your calculations? I suggest a test run in your tun to see how much liquid is left behind when you drain it. You need to add this back into your calculations.
I also suggest you work out where in your kettle you reach your desired volume. I have a copper pipe, marked with my dremel, in 1 litre increments. However, I can wing it in my kettle, as the rivets from the handles give me an exact 30 litre reference point.
Depending on the intensity of your boil, you may have boiled off more than you anticipated.
How much did you lose to trub in the bottom of your kettle? That could be as much as 2 litres. Again, you need to allow for that in your calculations.
IBU = International Bittering Units. I recommend you get a program, such as BeerSmith or Promash, which calculates your predicted IBU's based on the recipe you are designing, and your anticipated volumes. If you have collected significantly less volume than you anticipated, but used your planned quantity of hops, you are likely to end up with a rather bitter beer, and you need to reduce the amount of hops used.
Good luck with your next one, you'll get on top of all these issues as you continue, but I suggest you keep notes of what you did, so you can fine tune your processes.


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

Boston said:


> Your efficiency might be a bit lower than the recipe you were following as well.
> If you stilll have your mash handy, I am assuming you have not cleaned up yet. See if you can drain off enough wort to fill your hydrometer tube and check the SG (and taste). This will see if you have left any sugars behind. If the SG is only 1.002 or around this number, you have sparged as much as required and will need more grain to start next time. If your SG is higher sparging with more water next time is required.



so can i check the OG at mash temp?


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

warra48 said:


> Falling short on your first AG seems to be a common occurance, and I fell short on my first AG by about the same amount as you. I think the grains absorb more than the mythical 1 litre/kg, IMHO closer to 1.5 litres/kg.
> Did you allow for dead space in your mash/lauter tun in your calculations? I suggest a test run in your tun to see how much liquid is left behind when you drain it. You need to add this back into your calculations.
> I also suggest you work out where in your kettle you reach your desired volume. I have a copper pipe, marked with my dremel, in 1 litre increments. However, I can wing it in my kettle, as the rivets from the handles give me an exact 30 litre reference point.
> Depending on the intensity of your boil, you may have boiled off more than you anticipated.
> ...



As i was falling short i used a strainer to get as much as possible from the bottom of the kettle.

I should have measured the amount of water taken from the mash but didnt and will next time for sure.

i allowed 2 lts using beersmith for tun and trub.

My boil was exactly 100c the whole way through.. so it wasnt intense no boil overs or anything.

thanks for your help mate


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## matti (4/10/08)

At room temp.
Look at the neck of hydrometer.
It may state the temperature it is calibrated to


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## Frank (4/10/08)

larry66 said:


> so can i check the OG at mash temp?


Your gravity at preboil will always be lower than once you have finished, due to boil concentating the sugars. OG (original gravity) refers to SG (specific gravity) in the fermenter.
All SG readings should be performed around 20 C, so you might have to cool it down in the fridge first, or leave it sit on the bench.
You need to think of the process for what the different SG reading will be.
In the initial mash very high reading.
Last runnings into the kettle very low, close to 1.000.
Start boil lower than final reading.
You can take an SG reading at any stage to give yourself a bit of a guide to how the sugar conversions and dilutions are going. The sample can then be poured back into your pots. Never pour a sample back into your fermenter though once yeast has been pitched yeast.
I hope that wasn't too confusing.


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

got it, sorta :lol: 


another question whys the finished product so damn dark? its supposed to be a LCBA clone? is this normal for an AG brew?


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## Frank (4/10/08)

larry66 said:


> another question whys the finished product so damn dark? its supposed to be a LCBA clone? is this normal for an AG brew?


Just had a look on the recipe DB. Did you follow the exact grain bill? Shouldn't be too dark, are you looking at the fermenter, or in the hydrometer tube? Some of my beers still any up darker than anticipated.


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

my lhbs gave me everything i asked for in weight, some of the grain was equivilant stuff (not exact but pretty much the same so im told) and im looking through the fermenter


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## Cocko (4/10/08)

Larry, dont stress my friend!!

I am only doing BIAB but it sounds like you had a good first AG - Grats!!

Also thanks for the tip on SWMBO - Funny as... "Whats that smell" Why can't you come and do this?" - GOLD!

As warra said, there a few things you can't account for until you run up your system = Boil off, kettle loss etc!

My $0.02 = Just be hapy you made some AG beer, ferment it, bottle/Keg it AND enjoy it!! Easy....

Anyways, well done mate and I hope turns out well for you!!

Cocko
:icon_cheers:


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## Cocko (4/10/08)

Larry, dont stress my friend!!

I am only doing BIAB but it sounds like you had a good first AG - Grats!!

Also thanks for the tip on SWMBO - Funny as... "Whats that smell" Why can't you come and do this?" - GOLD!

As warra said, there a few thing you can't account for until you run up your system = Boil off, kettle loss etc!

My $0.02 = Just be hapy you made some AG beer, ferment it, bottle/Keg it AND enjoy it!! Easy....

Anyways, well done mate and I hope turns out well for you!!

Cocko
:icon_cheers:


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

Cocko said:


> Larry, dont stress my friend!!
> 
> I am only doing BIAB but it sounds like you had a good first AG - Grats!!
> 
> ...



mate apart from coming up short i had a great day i thoroughly enjoyed myself it was a great learning curve, i see your in warrandyte your more than welcome to come to my next one if your interested. all in all i had fun good times im hooked.


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## Cocko (4/10/08)

larry66 said:


> mate apart from coming up short i had a great day i thoroughly enjoyed myself it was a great learning curve, i see your in warrandyte your more than welcome to come to my next one if your interested. all in all i had fun good times im hooked.




Awesome, all right lets hook up!! Next brew day - PM me... too easy! Mine was today full BIAB AG, no chillin as we type and tomorrow full biab to a 60L Fermenter... add LDME and water so I guess it's a giant Partial!! NEED STOCK!!

Sooooo PIX??


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

Cocko said:


> Awesome, all right lets hook up!! Next brew day - PM me... too easy! Mine was today full BIAB AG, no chillin as we type and tomorrow full biab to a 60L Fermenter... add LDME and water so I guess it's a giant Partial!! NEED STOCK!!
> 
> Sooooo PIX??



will post pics tonight or early tomoz..... its on.


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

here are some pics of my basic AG setup with my assistants.... had fun and cant wait to do another.






Target hit!!



spirits were high among the crew after successful mash temp reached.



A setup that isnt flashy but will do



yup...



thar she boils



cool you b%stard


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## warra48 (4/10/08)

I use BeerSmith, and measure my gravity, volume, and temperature into the kettle when I've completed my runoff. BeerSmith has a function to correct the hydrometer readings for temperatures. The result is the only true measure you will have of your efficiency as a brewer, as it is the only true comparable with other brewers. It gives you the Efficiency into the Kettle, ie how good you are at extracting the sugars from your grain bill. Everything else is dependent on your own system and foibles, and differs for everyone.
I'm sure you'll enjoy the beer you've made, and also I'm sure you'll do better with your next brew. 
Relax and enjoy your hobby.

Edit. Just saw your pics. Very nice, and does the job, so it's all good. I only have one brewing assistant. There's a pic of her on Ross' bar thread.


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## Cocko (4/10/08)

How's the Staffi crosses ... SOO Curious!!

Beautiful dogs.. pity they are not in front of ross's bar!!!

Good pix!

Did you boil inside your house? How is that? Seriously, what is the smell like?

I brew outside.....

Great pix = Grats mate = Ferment and enjoy!!


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## grod5 (4/10/08)

larry66 said:


> here are some pics of my basic AG setup with my assistants.... had fun and cant wait to do another.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mate,

Well done on your first. You will only improve and won't look back. Very few dog breeds will tolerate the profranaties quoted during a stressful brew day. You, my friend, chose wisely as the staffy is one of those that will sit by patiently (eyes averted now and then) and participate in your brewing success.

daniel


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

the door is less than a metre away and wide open the whole time so its no issue and the smell is great!!! one of my dogs doesnt have pure bred papers but the other 2 are the real deal :beerbang: ill post so info on todays adventure tomorrow including lessons learnt ect..


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## Uncle Fester (4/10/08)

All can say is "Go For It" FWIW, I'm doing my 33rd AG tonight - Pale Ale, simcoe for bitter, Pallisade for flav/aroma.

Should be a nice Quaffer. Could have gone Simcoe throughout, and called it Pinoclean ???

Brew on,

Fester.


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## Adamt (4/10/08)

I think that burner may be a LITTLE too close to that bench!


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## kevin_smevin (4/10/08)

Hi Larry.

Sounds like your first AG was fine. I dont know if you know this but you can continue sparging until the gravity of the wort you collect gets down to 1010. Once it falls below 1010 you shouldnt continue to collect it as it will affect the buffering and your pH will be thrown off. So you should be constantly testing the gravity of the wort you collect while sparging. This can be difficult with a hydrometer because of the volumes you need to collect and the fact that it needs to be around 20C. Something that will make this much easier is a refractometer, which is this tiny telescope looking thing that you only need to put a drop of wort onto a window and look through eye piece. It will tell you how much sugar you have in your wort in % BRIX i think. This is easily converted to SG by multiplying roughly by 4 . You can buy refractometers with automatic temperature compensation (ATC) so you can add very small volumes of wort from your runnings and dont have to worry about temperature. You can buy these pretty cheap on ebay. They are the best things in the world for AG brewing, youll never look back.

On the topic of you final volume, you will get the hang of this in time. I had a similar problem my first brew. What i do now is have a mark in my kettle which shows my desired final volume. I simply continue to add water during the boil to keep it around this level. Its better to add water during the boil then from the tap as it will be steralised during the boil. 

Hope these tips might be useful. Enjoy


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## raven19 (4/10/08)

As a minimum provide some kind of heat protection from the burner near the kitchen bench  ! And have fire extinguisher handy.
Look forward to hearing how it turns out!
Cheers.


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## rude (4/10/08)

Well done larry. I am nearly there for my first AG so it is an interesting thread for me.
Hoping to do a Brown Ale first up no chill 26 litres final vol.


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## datman510 (4/10/08)

Adamt said:


> I think that burner may be a LITTLE too close to that bench!






i know what you mean i forgot to post this photo earlier......


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## Adamt (4/10/08)

Ahhhhh that's why you were under volume! Boiled too hard in all that heat and too much evaporation!


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## buttersd70 (4/10/08)

yum yum yum said:


> Hi Larry.
> 
> Sounds like your first AG was fine. I dont know if you know this but you can continue sparging until the gravity of the wort you collect gets down to 1010. Once it falls below 1010 you shouldnt continue to collect it as it will affect the buffering and your pH will be thrown off. So you should be constantly testing the gravity of the wort you collect while sparging. This can be difficult with a hydrometer because of the volumes you need to collect and the fact that it needs to be around 20C. Something that will make this much easier is a refractometer, which is this tiny telescope looking thing that you only need to put a drop of wort onto a window and look through eye piece. It will tell you how much sugar you have in your wort in % BRIX i think. This is easily converted to SG by multiplying roughly by 4 . You can buy refractometers with automatic temperature compensation (ATC) so you can add very small volumes of wort from your runnings and dont have to worry about temperature. You can buy these pretty cheap on ebay. They are the best things in the world for AG brewing, youll never look back.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to the original post, wasn't Larry batch sparging? So gravity drops and loss of buffering potential aren't really relevant. I'm not saying that your info is incorrect; just that fly sparging is a different process than that which was used.


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## kevin_smevin (5/10/08)

Sorry. My mistake. I dont batch sparge so the thought didnt even cross my mind.


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## Offline (5/10/08)

larry66 said:


> ...
> 
> View attachment 21625
> 
> ...



That photo doesn't look like it's boiling, regardless of what your thermometer is reading, dissolving just about anything in water will increase its boiling point plus your thermometer my not be calibrated. Its like a pot of water on a stove, you dont need a thermometer to tell when its boiling (or how hard its boiling) because you can see with your eyes
Im not saying that you didn't boil it hard enough, just that in this photo it looks like it's not boiling yet.

My first ag i hit all my volumes spot on, but i was using a borrowed HLT/urn with marked sight glass. When i got my own HLT i suddenly lost 2-3litre in each brew until i worked out an accurate way to mark my sight glass.


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## datman510 (5/10/08)

it definately was boiling for the full 90 minutes, the thermometre was just for the photo and for your viewing pleasure :beer:


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## datman510 (5/10/08)

Thanks to all who have helped me with info, thoughts and advice its greatly appreciated. This forum is such a friendly place and so many people here will to share there hard earned knowledge without hesitation.... heres to you all :beer: 

Yesterday went like this.... (below is the recipe link) sorry have no idea how to do one of those click here things

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=301 

Hit mash temp accurately without any adjustment, tun dropped only one degree within the hour.

when sparging i added enough water to make up two even amounts (i know that sounds retarded) i had 15lt strike allowed for 5 lt absorb and had 23 sparge water so 10 plus 23 = 33 divided by 2. so i added 6.5 lts for the first run making up to 16.5 (in theory) then added the remaining 16.5 for the second run.

boiled for 90mins once boil had commenced.

used immersion cooler to get it down below 25 degrees, racked to fermenter where i notice 9 lts missing ( i used a strainer for this as i needed every drop i could get.

pitched yeast. commenced clean up.

Notes for next time.

1. I need to dial in the losses for my gear, boil mash ect
2. I needed to measure how much i actually collect into the kettle... 

for those of you reading thinking about AG 




Other than that the process went pretty smooth, if your an organised person this is not a hard thing to do if you are following a recipe.

I wrote everything i planned to do down and i tell you what the flaws that made obvious to me probably saved me ballsing yesterday up so its not a bad idea till you get used to it im going to continue for at least the next few.

Follow up questions,

A whole lot of stuff came out into the fermenter (im assuming a lot of it was the hop pellets. i did strain into the fermenter and caught a lot of it but there is still about an inch around the bottom of the fermenter.

a/ should i strain into the fermenter?
b/ is all that stuff in the fermenter a problem?
c/do i need a false bottom in the kettle or is there another way? because ATM its just a tap.
d/ was a 90min boil necessary?
i think thats it for now... im sure ill stalk you all later.

restepa

Gareth


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## datman510 (7/10/08)

sooooo this may sound wierd.... but should my first AG thats currently in the ferm smell so good? compared to the K & Ks ive been doing? smells sensational


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## trevc (7/10/08)

It'll smell better, and taste better too!


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## datman510 (7/10/08)

yo trevc you got an AG JSGA recipe that your happy with?


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## Adamt (7/10/08)

Try Dr Smurto's Golden Ale.

Most rated and talked about recipe in the community, and is based on JSGA. Doesn't Smurto know it too, snide bastard


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## datman510 (7/10/08)

Adamt said:


> Try Dr Smurto's Golden Ale.
> 
> Most rated and talked about recipe in the community, and is based on JSGA. Doesn't Smurto know it too, snide bastard



thanks brudda......


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## rwmingis (7/10/08)

larry66 said:


> sooooo this may sound wierd.... but should my first AG thats currently in the ferm smell so good? compared to the K & Ks ive been doing? smells sensational



Yet another brewer ascends to the ranks of AG. (Almost Godlike) Well done. :super: So much better than kit and kilo, mind you there's still merit in LME if you get it fresh and not as a kit...

Wait till you do a lager or even some hefeweisen's, sometimes they produce a bit of sulfur, you may not find that smelling so good during the ferment!


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## Uncle Fester (7/10/08)

Adamt said:


> Try Dr Smurto's Golden Ale.
> 
> Most rated and talked about recipe in the community, and is based on JSGA. Doesn't Smurto know it too, snide bastard



Youv'e got to admit though, Skunk Fart held the mantle for a hell of a long time though.....


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