# Lager question



## Doctormcbrewdle (4/11/17)

Hi all

I'm looking to make a commercial type clean, crisp quaffable eu lager. I've always had a little trouble with mine being a tadd too tasty using all grain malts. I'm looking at using 5 or so percent simple sugar to dry it out but then I go and think about the German purity law so they're definitely not using sugars in the big breweries. 

What suggestions would you give on achieving this outcome? Are they watering their product down to lower fg? they measure around 1.008 taken from a flattened bottle left open overnight and mine finish around 1.012 using pilsner malt to the same abv


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## 2cranky (4/11/17)

Hi DrMac
Have you tried:
*Gladfields German Pilsner Malt*

*From the website:*
_What is it?_
Base malt modelled after popular European pilsner malts.

_How does it taste?_
Slight raw dough character, no malt taste and with an outstanding clean finish.
What does it add to the beer? – Solid malt backbone with minimal flavour, also it is plain, simple and offers plenty of flexibility.

_Typical Beer Styles:_
Base malt for traditional European style beers and Belgian style beers.

_Typical Usage Rates:_
Up to 100%

If you mash lower you can 1.008. My Czech Pilsner finished at 1.009.


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## Gloveski (4/11/17)

As above try lowering your mash temp


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## Doctormcbrewdle (8/11/17)

Thanks guys.
Question, can I use my pool acid (hydrochloric acid 310g p/litre) to lower mash ph? And what ph am I aiming for?


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## warra48 (8/11/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Thanks guys.
> Question, can I use my pool acid (hydrochloric acid 310g p/litre) to lower mash ph? And what ph am I aiming for?



Do yourself a favour, and use a product we know works well in brewing. I use it, and I'm still alive.
http://www.brewman.com.au/web/showproduct.asp?prodid=870


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## Gloveski (8/11/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Thanks guys.
> Question, can I use my pool acid (hydrochloric acid 310g p/litre) to lower mash ph? And what ph am I aiming for?



Use phosphoric or lactic aim for a ph of about 5.2 . Just starting to play around with water adjustments myself


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (8/11/17)

I routinely use sulphuric acid as a mash pH adjuster, you could also use hydrochloric.

Note that you'll need to take the anion into account for your mash and kettle salt additions. Since I don't make any beers with high chloride levels it works out for me.


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## labels (8/11/17)

Personally, adding acid to the mash is a stab in the dark, guesswork and best left in the hands of alchemists.
Before adding any acid to the mash you have to know the pH of the mash - not the water. Without this knowledge you're having a wild guess at best with an unknown and unmeasurable outcome. Do you know the pH buffering power of the mash? the point at which adding any more acid has a zero effect ?
Going back to post No. 1, getting a drier, fully attenuated beer is not that hard without adding any adjuncts. A two-step mash is a good start allowing the mash to rest both in Alpha and Beta amylase range. A decent long boil, use a high attenuating yeast and most of all give the beer time. Lagers take five weeks at least to get to their best going through the propor temperature regimes along the way. Then you will win.


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## Brewman_ (9/11/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Hi all
> 
> I'm looking to make a commercial type clean, crisp quaffable eu lager. I've always had a little trouble with mine being a tadd too tasty using all grain malts. I'm looking at using 5 or so percent simple sugar to dry it out but then I go and think about the German purity law so they're definitely not using sugars in the big breweries.
> 
> What suggestions would you give on achieving this outcome? Are they watering their product down to lower fg? they measure around 1.008 taken from a flattened bottle left open overnight and mine finish around 1.012 using pilsner malt to the same abv


German purity laws is why they use acidulated malt. They can't add acids, and adjust PH with this malt. We can do it that way or with say lactic acid, and sometimes it is a very convenient way to just build the malt into a recipe. I see this a lot, some guys add this to nearly everything.

Eating acidulated malt is my favourite one, it tastes like a cross between a base malt and a war head lolly.

Key to lagers / Pils is big healthy yeast pitches at the right temperature, which is another topic entirely


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## Bribie G (10/11/17)

I use a mix of lactic acid and calcium lactate. This buffers to a pH of .... over to you Brewman as you sell them.

Works for me.


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## MHB (10/11/17)

labels said:


> Personally, adding acid to the mash is a stab in the dark, guesswork and best left in the hands of alchemists.
> Before adding any acid to the mash you have to know the pH of the mash - not the water. Without this knowledge you're having a wild guess at best with an unknown and unmeasurable outcome. Do you know the pH buffering power of the mash? the point at which adding any more acid has a zero effect ?
> Going back to post No. 1, getting a drier, fully attenuated beer is not that hard without adding any adjuncts. A two-step mash is a good start allowing the mash to rest both in Alpha and Beta amylase range. A decent long boil, use a high attenuating yeast and most of all give the beer time. Lagers take five weeks at least to get to their best going through the propor temperature regimes along the way. Then you will win.


I don't agree at all!
If you have a fair idea what your water is like, can read a COA and know the pH you want you can get pretty dam close to a target pH by adding Acid Malt.
Yes using a decent pH meter would get you a lot more accurate and repeatable results. Even in distilled water the pH if you are brewing a pale beer you wont get down to ideal values, Acid malt is calibrated to reduce the pH by 0.1/1% of grist. Same sort of information is available for the common mash acidifying acids. It isn't just a stab in the dark.
I do agree on mash regimes and yeast choices, personally I think the two indispensable ingredients in Lager brewing are really huge amounts of yeast and very good temperature control.
Mark


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## Crusty (10/11/17)

Brewman_ said:


> German purity laws is why they use acidulated malt. They can't add acids, and adjust PH with this malt. We can do it that way or with say lactic acid, and sometimes it is a very convenient way to just build the malt into a recipe. I see this a lot, some guys add this to nearly everything.
> 
> Eating acidulated malt is my favourite one, it tastes like a cross between a base malt and a war head lolly.
> 
> Key to lagers / Pils is big healthy yeast pitches at the right temperature, which is another topic entirely



I use acidulated malt in quite a lot of my beers to tweak my mash pH.
Pretty small amounts in a 20L batch, up to 100gms or so depending on recipe.


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## Droopy Brew (10/11/17)

Brewman_ said:


> German purity laws is why they use acidulated malt. They can't add acids, and adjust PH with this malt. We can do it that way or with say lactic acid, and sometimes it is a very convenient way to just build the malt into a recipe. I see this a lot, some guys add this to nearly everything.
> 
> Eating acidulated malt is my favourite one, it tastes like a cross between a base malt and a war head lolly.
> 
> Key to lagers / Pils is big healthy yeast pitches at the right temperature, which is another topic entirely



Firstly, just like to ask the OP why are you concerned about German purity laws? You are a homebrewer, make what you like how you like IMO. You are not selling commercially in Germany so why bother? Most commercial breweries do use dex in their beers to thin them out- in Australia anyway.
Secondly, if you use dex to prime, any salt additions or acid then you are not within these laws anyhow.

And that brings me to Brewmans post- I'd be interested to know if acidulated malt is allowable under GPL. It is malt laced with lactic acid so surely the acid on the malt would break the law? Interesting one.


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## labels (10/11/17)

In response to MHB, the point I was making is 'you have to know something of the pH of your mash before trying to adjust it' simple science, don't just add acidulated malt because you think it's a good idea.

As for Crusty and Droppy Brew, I can't argue your principals here, small amounts added BUT just adding without knowing of course comes back to just guessing. Droopy brew answer is why use acidulated when the only reason the Germans use it is to comply with the purity laws, just use lactic acid, gets the same results, makes sense, we're not in Germany.


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## Crusty (10/11/17)

labels said:


> In response to MHB, the point I was making is 'you have to know something of the pH of your mash before trying to adjust it' simple science, don't just add acidulated malt because you think it's a good idea.
> 
> As for Crusty and Droppy Brew, I can't argue your principals here, small amounts added BUT just adding without knowing of course comes back to just guessing. Droopy brew answer is why use acidulated when the only reason the Germans use it is to comply with the purity laws, just use lactic acid, gets the same results, makes sense, we're not in Germany.



Whose guessing?
My grain bill is input into a spreadsheet that has all the spec info on the grain together with a water analysis chart to give you a pretty spot on pH of the mash. Acidulated malt is added to the grain bill if needed to bring the mash pH to the desired level if it's still a touch high. It's also checked with a pH meter to verify.
No guess work in my brewery, it's all about the numbers.


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## Brewman_ (10/11/17)

Acidulated Malt made at Weyermann. I doubt they'd make anything that couldn't be used in the home country.

The thing with the acidulated malt is it is not laced with acid, rather developed on the malt. I found this below from Beer and brewer magazine on line.

Quote:
___
Acidulated
is a pale malt (color: roughly 3 to 6 EBC/1.7 to 2.8 SRM) that has been subjected to a lactic acid fermentation after kilning and a second finishing drying cycle. The lactic-acid bacteria reside naturally in the malt. The purpose of acidulated malt is to reduce the pH value of the mash. Proper mash pH (5.4 to 5.6) helps assure the enzymatic performance on which the brewer relies to break down gums, proteins, and starches. It also leads to proper wort pH, which affects yeast performance during fermentation and the final flavor profile of the resulting beer. Every 1% of acidulated malt (by weight) of the total grain bill reduces the mash-pH by 0.1 point. In highly alkaline mashes, acidulated malt can make up as much as 10% of the grain bill.

The optimum wort pH of most barley-based beers is 5.2, and of most wheat-based beers is 5.0. Measurement of the pH values from the mash-in to the finished beer informs the brewer if a pH correction is necessary and how much acidulated malt, if any, should be used in the mash.

Acidulated malt is widely used in Germany, where the Beer Purity Law (Reinheitsgebot) proscribes the direct use of acids in the mash, the wort, or the finished beer. See reinheitsgebot.
___
End quote.

Cheers Steve


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## labels (10/11/17)

Crusty said:


> Whose guessing?
> My grain bill is input into a spreadsheet that has all the spec info on the grain together with a water analysis chart to give you a pretty spot on pH of the mash. Acidulated malt is added to the grain bill if needed to bring the mash pH to the desired level if it's still a touch high. It's also checked with a pH meter to verify.
> No guess work in my brewery, it's all about the numbers.


Sounds like you got things under control with some calcs and and measurements Crusty. Why would I have a problem with that when my last two posts specifically point adding stuff without knowing stuff?


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## Brewman_ (10/11/17)

The Lactic acid, or other acids, are a luxury that we can use because, true we aren't in Germany, and we are home brewers.

Like many things in brewing, there is not always one answer that is right. There are many ways to achieve the result. Ask three brewers how to achieve a goal and likely get 4 answers.

I know some brewers, me included have a set % of acidulated malt that are built into _some_ recipes. Other times I'll use lactic acid.
I like the convenience of the acidulated malt.


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## Crusty (10/11/17)

labels said:


> In response to MHB, the point I was making is 'you have to know something of the pH of your mash before trying to adjust it' simple science, don't just add acidulated malt because you think it's a good idea.
> 
> As for Crusty and Droppy Brew, I can't argue your principals here, small amounts added BUT just adding without knowing of course comes back to just guessing. .



All good. 
I was just replying to this part of your response about guessing without knowing.
I usually verify with a pH meter against the spreadsheet but it's pretty close. I quite often add small amounts to a lot of my beers especially if the mash pH is too high. I also add brewing salts to get me in the ball park if I'm chasing a malt forward, hop forward or a balanced beer. I've never used acid so can't comment on that but the acidulated malt is something I always have on hand.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (12/11/17)

Cheers guys

Just in regard to yeast pitch. I understand that brewing at lager temps requires a hell of alot more yeast than ale. Is 2x Saflager 34/70 fine or should I go 3 sachets? Gets pretty expensive using 2 or 3 but if it's definitely better then I'll go with it. Thinking of brewing at 12 degrees with straight pilsner malt and hallertau at 60, 20 and 5(?) For a Euro type lager


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## labels (12/11/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Cheers guys
> 
> Just in regard to yeast pitch. I understand that brewing at lager temps requires a hell of alot more yeast than ale. Is 2x Saflager 34/70 fine or should I go 3 sachets? Gets pretty expensive using 2 or 3 but if it's definitely better then I'll go with it. Thinking of brewing at 12 degrees with straight pilsner malt and hallertau at 60, 20 and 5(?) For a Euro type lager


Two packs in 23L is about right. Yes, it's expensive but you can step up. A stir plate is best but, for years I used 2L wine bottles (flagons) and step up with about 1.5L of 'wort' made up to 1.040 with DME and allowed to ferment out. Add oxygen if you have it otherwise shake the shit out of it. That keeps the cost in check.

Go one step better, add a small amount of 'wort' to your starter at the beginning of your brew day, when it comes time to pitch, you're adding actively fermenting yeast to your beer, it starts fermenting straight away with no lag time - perfect.


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## SHLACKS (21/11/17)

so if pitched at around 14degrees how long would you lager for and would you keep the temp the same or change and after how long?


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## labels (22/11/17)

SHLACKS said:


> so if pitched at around 14degrees how long would you lager for and would you keep the temp the same or change and after how long?


Lagering kind of falls into two stages. Stage one is when the yeast is still active and cleans up fermentation by-products. This can happen down to as low as 3C but if you crash chill it won't work as well. Slowly down is the key. Stage two is holding the beer at or below 0C for a length of time to allow polyphenols (tannins) to drop out. This can be sped up with gelatine and PVPP and can be done in the keg or left in the fermenter.


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## MHB (22/11/17)

Gelatin wont work on the haze formed during lagering, Isinglass will, perhaps some of the Silica (see Biofine) products people are talking about, but gelatin simply cant react with haze the way it can with say yeast and trub.
PVPP isn't a fining either, it chemically binds the Polyphenols that are one half of the haze formation equation.
There are also blends of Silica Xerogel and PVPP (bit of a pain to use, but very effective), the Silica Xerogel binds the key proteins, the other half of the process involved in haze formation. See Polyclar 70/30, Brewman has some I don't think anyone else stocks it.

Shlacks - How long is going to be a piece of string type of question, too many variables based on the info available, 14 is a very hot ferment for a Lager 8-10oC is pretty common, 12oC is referred to as "Warm Fermentation". the warmer the faster, the cooler the less esters produced, the more lager like, the more yeast you need.


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## labels (22/11/17)

Gelatine, as far as I am aware, doesn't work on starch haze or chill haze where haze forms at low temps but always thought that gelatine being almost pure protein in itself would attract the other grain proteins to make larger protein particles that become heavy enough to drop out. PVPP I bought from a major wine supplier specifically states that PVPP is for dropping out polyphenols - how true that is I don't know??

From personal observation, when I do add a gelatine/pvpp mix into very cold beer in the fermenter it leaves the beer very clear within 24 hours - from observed cloudy to observed clear


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## MHB (22/11/17)

Chill haze is exactly why you lager beer - to chill proof the beer. Either form the haze and wait for it to fall, or speed up the precipitation by using a fining that does work on chill haze (there is more to Lagering naturally but just talking about fining).
I suspect the choice of terms, in this case dropping out - is misleading PVPP is insoluble, it falls through the beer (or is layered onto filters commercially) it chemically binds the tannins, but doesn't precipitate them, however their concentration is reduced so, a poor choice of words.

When it comes to Proteins well there are a ridiculously large number of them, just thinking that an animal protein is going to bond to a plant protein, the way you want it to - because they are both proteins - is well to put it gently, fallacious.
Mark


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (24/11/17)

Gelatine acts on chill haze too. Won't do anything for starch haze though.


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## shacked (24/11/17)

I think water plays a huge part in making a tasty lager and also a couple of small adjustments. You will generally not have a lot of strong flavour to 'hide' behind like you would in say a stout or IPA. For example, I recently did a run of adjunct lagers: 80% JW Pils, 17% flaked maize and 3% Vienna. 12 IBU of saaz. In order to get the profile I was after I purchased RO water and blended that with Illawarra tap water. Mind you that meant that I had to buy about 40L which cost $35!! I then used lactic acid and a tiny bit of cal chloride to get to the target PH and to an acceptably low mineral profile. I did a 4 hour mash at 62/63 to get a nice dry and crisp finish. Yeast nutrient and brewbrite added too. I ferment cold until the beer hits around 1.02 then free rise to 18 until it's well and truly done. Step down to 1C over a few days, transfer and cold store for a month. I gelatin in the keg.


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (24/11/17)

I made a good lager with London tap water which is quite hard . I think it was about 85:15 bohemian Pilsner malt and 15% Vienna. Motueka to ~30ibu lots of mangrove jack Bavarian lager yeast, and a schedule similar to Shacked above i.e. Relatively warm. Came out a great beer [emoji482] if a bit fruity. Good pils malt is important.

I spent a lot of time obsessing over it, until I just made one. A lot of the processes are not essential unless you are trying to nail a specific style


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## Doctormcbrewdle (24/11/17)

Well, this one's almost done now with the 95% pils malt and 5% sucrose mashed at 64 degrees. It's down to 1.006..! I can't believe it! Smells and tastes really good. I'm aiming for a megaswill Bali Bintang type pils. If anything it's a tadd to flavoursome, will try 10% sugar next time but it's bloody nice as it is now. Conditioning will tell


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## Doctormcbrewdle (24/11/17)

Next up is the same done with ale malt instead as an exBeeriment you could say. I'll throw in 7-10% sucrose and maybe a tadd less bittering (latest done at 30 ibu which I wouldn't have thought would taste so bitter, must be the light malt)


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## Doctormcbrewdle (24/11/17)

Damn thing's now 5.5% too with such high attenuation. I just want a nice clean easy drinking lawnmower beer for once! Haha. Maybe I can water it down a little


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## Coodgee (24/11/17)

biofine clear seems to clear most forms of haze.


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## Gloveski (24/11/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Damn thing's now 5.5% too with such high attenuation. I just want a nice clean easy drinking lawnmower beer for once! Haha. Maybe I can water it down a little



If you are going to water down as your expecting a higher ABV better to do it before fermentation or look at mash schedule if FG is lower than expected


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## warra48 (24/11/17)

5.5% is still lower than Coopers Sparkling Ale.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (24/11/17)

Hehe

I still remember when dat shi' was 7.8%

It was the go-to liquid for me and my teenage hombre's


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## labels (24/11/17)

MHB said:


> Chill haze is exactly why you lager beer - to chill proof the beer. Either form the haze and wait for it to fall, or speed up the precipitation by using a fining that does work on chill haze (there is more to Lagering naturally but just talking about fining).
> I suspect the choice of terms, in this case dropping out - is misleading PVPP is insoluble, it falls through the beer (or is layered onto filters commercially) it chemically binds the tannins, but doesn't precipitate them, however their concentration is reduced so, a poor choice of words.
> 
> When it comes to Proteins well there are a ridiculously large number of them, just thinking that an animal protein is going to bond to a plant protein, the way you want it to - because they are both proteins - is well to put it gently, fallacious.
> Mark


Good points MHB, in a traditional lager, cold conditioning does most of the work, chill haze forms and drops out - over time, and of course the key to traditional lagers is time. I prefer the old ways of doing things here allowing time to do the job but you're looking at 5-6 weeks for a an average lager.
I am making a fast condition lager right now using Cali lager yeast and gelatine and PVPP to help clear the beer plus cold temperatures and I don't like what I see or taste so far. The finings haven't really done as good a job as I thought. Like a traditional lager I'll hold it at -1C for a week and see what happens, if I have to hold it more than that, I might as well go back to traditional lagers.


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## MHB (24/11/17)

Contrary to some opinions cooking gelatin doesn't attach to chill haze, so I'm not surprised your beer clearing slowly.
It will attach to residual cold-break material, yeast and some other bits and bobs, just not Protein/Polyphenol complex (chill haze), as a lot of peoples beer has more crud in than a typical commercial beer might, the fact that gelatine removes this does make the beer clearer - just not the way people think.

Personally I have never found a way to get lager into what I regard as first class condition in less than 4 weeks, and that for very light/pale lagers. For more robust styles I find 6 weeks pretty much a minimum.
Clarity is often a function of the yeast chosen, some lager yeasts just don't flock, Ca and pH can also make a very big difference.
If you can measure the pH, a bit of tweaking at or around 4.2pH can make a big difference (I use Potassium Bicarbonate (usually in Ciders) or Lactic Acid) Making sure you have a reasonable amount of Ca in the beer at the end of fermentation really helps the yeast flock, I usually start with around 150ppm in the mash. Am setting up to be able to measure Ca so hopefully will soon be able to pin some of the variables down a bit tighter.
Mark


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## labels (24/11/17)

MHB said:


> Contrary to some opinions cooking gelatin doesn't attach to chill haze, so I'm not surprised your beer clearing slowly.
> It will attach to residual cold-break material, yeast and some other bits and bobs, just not Protein/Polyphenol complex (chill haze), as a lot of peoples beer has more crud in than a typical commercial beer might, the fact that gelatine removes this does make the beer clearer - just not the way people think.
> 
> Personally I have never found a way to get lager into what I regard as first class condition in less than 4 weeks, and that for very light/pale lagers. For more robust styles I find 6 weeks pretty much a minimum.
> ...


Some very interesting information there Mark and will definitely take it on board. I follow simple basic rules but of course, lager is more than just about clarity.
My favourite yeast was Wyeast Danish 2042 (deleted line) because it didn't floculate very well and stayed in suspension cleaning up fermenation by-products but dropped clear at minus temps.


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## Quokka42 (24/11/17)

MHB said:


> Contrary to some opinions cooking gelatin doesn't attach to chill haze, so I'm not surprised your beer clearing slowly.
> It will attach to residual cold-break material, yeast and some other bits and bobs, just not Protein/Polyphenol complex (chill haze), as a lot of peoples beer has more crud in than a typical commercial beer might, the fact that gelatine removes this does make the beer clearer - just not the way people think.
> 
> Personally I have never found a way to get lager into what I regard as first class condition in less than 4 weeks, and that for very light/pale lagers. For more robust styles I find 6 weeks pretty much a minimum.
> ...



Agree. I think gelatin is a great fining agent - especially if you are using a lot of dry hops or a low flocculation yeast, but it won't make any difference to chill haze (protein haze.) Chill haze becomes history once you are able to chill below 60C in less than 20 minutes (officially, but I get below 60 in about 10 and no longer get chill haze - I do use 1/4 Whirlfloc at 10-15 minutes as well.)


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## Doctormcbrewdle (29/11/17)

Well, I won't say it's 'ready' yet but it's clear and carbed just 5 days in the bottle. It's the best pils I've done yet! Still a tiny bit too tasty to be a megaswill Bali Bintang but definitely a complete winner. Next up I'll use 10% sucrose with the ale malt and see how she goes. It should also help add a little colour too, pils malt is very light, it physically looks like a Corona

Looking forward to conditioning this one


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## Doctormcbrewdle (7/12/17)

Well it's been in the bottle a few weeks now and is the best I've ever done! Really like this one. Its just so on the mark. Bitterness is just right and flavour is dead-on. I think mashing at 64 has made a great difference so cheers for the heads up on that once again

I'm also finding lately it's hard to beat a really simple grain bill too. Just pils for this one and my pale ale's and IPA's are improving the less specialty malts I use too


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (7/12/17)

MHB said:


> PVPP isn't a fining either, it chemically binds the Polyphenols that are one half of the haze formation equation.



In French, fining is "collage", the word also means "gluing". The basic action is to bind together small particles so that the agglomeration becomes large enough to sediment out.

It can be argued that since PVPP is itself large enough to sediment out that its action can be technically described as that of an adsorbent but it's still a form of fining. The same is true of many other forms of fining eg the casein in skim milk denatures instantly at wine pH but it's still a fining.

Legally the addition of any additive or process aid whose purpose is to aid clarification is fining.


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## MHB (7/12/17)

Its an opinion that has been much discussed, I'm not sure what you mean by legally but the definition I find most useful refers to agents that cause small particles to flock and settle out faster (see stokes law)
PVPP and a bunch of other products are called process aids. I know wine makers use a much boarder definition of what a fining is, and quite a few products that we don't/wont use in brewing (bentonite, milk, blood, egg white...)
I recall having this conversation several years ago, someone opined that if you added a shedload of SO2, the yeast would all fall out - so SO2 would be a fining in that case.
Mark


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (7/12/17)

Exactly: an additive is defined by its function, not by its mode of action.

You are right that usage is a bit broader in wine: I am currently looking at fining trials in my '17 chardonnays and it will make SFA difference to clarity after they are cross flowed through 0.2 micron membranes. What I'm after is flavour / phenolic balance.


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## Coodgee (15/12/17)

no need to over-think a lager. Putting this one down over the weekend: 

Style: Munich Helles

Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l 
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 4.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 18.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
4.80 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.5 EBC) Grain 1 100.0 % 
7.00 g Hallertau Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 m Hop 2 10.9 IBUs 
20.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil Hop 3 5.4 IBUs 
20.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil Hop 4 1.8 IBUs 
3.0 pkg Saflager Lager (DCL/Fermentis #W-34/70) Yeast 5 - 



----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time 
Protein Rest Add 16.17 l of water and heat to 50.0 C 50.0 C 10 min 
Saccharification Heat to 63.0 C over 10 min 63.0 C 45 min 
Saccharification Heat to 72.0 C over 10 min 72.0 C 30 min 
Mash Out Add 0.00 l of water at 76.0 C 76.0 C 10 min


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## Doctormcbrewdle (16/12/17)

Beautiful man, should be a winner. I just want to say, I tried a very similar recipe a few months back, also to 18ibu but ended up tipping it because it really needed more than that. I just don't understand such low ibu. Could barely notice it was there.

I understand it must be true to style but the helles definitely isn't for me. And I like lagers like Heinekin etc! I mention Heine' because National home brew laughed at me when I asked if they had a recipe like it. He said a helles will blow me away. Well, it certainly didn't.

Certainly don't want to put you off this one at all but that's just my personal experience with the helles anyway. Hope all goes well for you Coodgee



Coodgee said:


> no need to over-think a lager. Putting this one down over the weekend:
> 
> Style: Munich Helles
> 
> ...


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## Dan Pratt (16/12/17)

Coodgee said:


> no need to over-think a lager. Putting this one down over the weekend:
> 
> Style: Munich Helles
> 
> ...


nice coodgee.

what pH did you get for the mash?


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## manticle (16/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Beautiful man, should be a winner. I just want to say, I tried a very similar recipe a few months back, also to 18ibu but ended up tipping it because it really needed more than that. I just don't understand such low ibu. Could barely notice it was there.
> 
> I understand it must be true to style but the helles definitely isn't for me. And I like lagers like Heinekin etc! I mention Heine' because National home brew laughed at me when I asked if they had a recipe like it. He said a helles will blow me away. Well, it certainly didn't.
> 
> Certainly don't want to put you off this one at all but that's just my personal experience with the helles anyway. Hope all goes well for you Coodgee


How bitter do you reckon heineken is?


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## Jack of all biers (16/12/17)

manticle said:


> How bitter do you reckon heineken is?


IBU of 23 seems the most consistent interwebs answer, though one has 25, but has a question mark behind it and this one maybe has it at 18.5 IBU and it seems the most convincing. None of them have a reference, including the Wikipedia link



Doctormcbrewdle said:


> .... I like lagers like Heinekin etc! I mention Heine' because National home brew laughed at me when I asked if they had a recipe like it. He said a helles will blow me away. Well, it certainly didn't.



GIven you only mentioned Heineken because the HB owner laughed about it, then similar Dutch pale lagers have more. Brand have them from 27 IBU up to 37 IBU and Grolsch Premium is 27 IBU (or at least the recipe I have). 

Grolsch type lager
OG 1048 - 11.9 Plato
FG1011 - 2.7 Plato
Colour 3 EBC
85% Pilsner malt
15% flaked maize
Mash schedule;
62C - 45 min
70C - 45 min (or 30 min and a higher mashout temp step if you like)

Equal amounts of Saaz and Hallertau to 27 IBU 
90 min boil
Clean lager yeast (W-34/70 is my preference)
Lager for 8-10 weeks.


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## Coodgee (18/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Beautiful man, should be a winner. I just want to say, I tried a very similar recipe a few months back, also to 18ibu but ended up tipping it because it really needed more than that. I just don't understand such low ibu. Could barely notice it was there.
> 
> I understand it must be true to style but the helles definitely isn't for me. And I like lagers like Heinekin etc! I mention Heine' because National home brew laughed at me when I asked if they had a recipe like it. He said a helles will blow me away. Well, it certainly didn't.
> 
> Certainly don't want to put you off this one at all but that's just my personal experience with the helles anyway. Hope all goes well for you Coodgee



gee it must have been bad to tip it? I find 18 IBU is plenty in a dry beer. what was the final gravity of your beer?


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## Coodgee (18/12/17)

Dan Pratt said:


> nice coodgee.
> 
> what pH did you get for the mash?



didn't manage to brew on the weekend but I'll adjust it to 5.2 with phosphoric acid. I am thinking of using RO water just to remove the chlorine/chloromine.

edit.. Do you reckon I could ferment at 9 degrees with 3 packs of 34/70 or would you go 10 degrees for this one and then do one at 9 degrees with the slurry?


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## Doctormcbrewdle (18/12/17)

Yea I definitely could have kept it but it just wasn't something I enjoyed so tipped them and reused the bottles for something else. I've done the same with a wheat beer I diluted too nuch early on abd 1x what I thought was an infected brew (before all grain) This is before I mashed low and from memory fg was around 1.010 but even 25-30ibu is pretty weak in any lager for me personally anyway.

Like I said, it's probably just me and I say more power to anyone who likes them less bitter. Just my observation




Coodgee said:


> gee it must have been bad to tip it? I find 18 IBU is plenty in a dry beer. what was the final gravity of your beer?


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## Doctormcbrewdle (18/12/17)

By the way: Question: Has anyone here done a Belgian style wit bier with just pilsner malt and WB-06? Just a thought. I've got a bunch of pils malt and loads of ready to drink lagers so could be fun to make something different


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## Dan Pratt (18/12/17)

Coodgee said:


> didn't manage to brew on the weekend but I'll adjust it to 5.2 with phosphoric acid. I am thinking of using RO water just to remove the chlorine/chloromine.
> 
> edit.. Do you reckon I could ferment at 9 degrees with 3 packs of 34/70 or would you go 10 degrees for this one and then do one at 9 degrees with the slurry?



It will ferment however the rate will be slower, so target 12c and then the next beer on the slurry at 9c. That yeast is good up to 15c


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## 2cranky (18/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> By the way: Question: Has anyone here done a Belgian style wit bier with just pilsner malt and WB-06? Just a thought. I've got a bunch of pils malt and loads of ready to drink lagers so could be fun to make something different


Probably better with wheat in a wit beir. You could go half half though.


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## manticle (18/12/17)

WB06, as far as I'm aware is a German Hefe strain so you will get a different result to using something like WY forbidden fruit or Belgian wit in general.

Wit also uses unmalted wheat as opposed to/as well as malted wheat.


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## shacked (18/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> By the way: Question: Has anyone here done a Belgian style wit bier with just pilsner malt and WB-06? Just a thought. I've got a bunch of pils malt and loads of ready to drink lagers so could be fun to make something different



Just brew it and see how it goes. As others have said, it’s not going to be a wit per the style guide but it might be a nice beer in any event. 

One of the best hoppy beers I’ve made used a blend of WLP500/550 and belle saison!!


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## Doctormcbrewdle (18/12/17)

Thanks for the inspiration man. And, true dat'. It's been really good experimenting. The more I do, the more you really learn and can create great recipes


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## Ben Hardman (18/12/17)

labels said:


> Two packs in 23L is about right. Yes, it's expensive but you can step up. A stir plate is best but, for years I used 2L wine bottles (flagons) and step up with about 1.5L of 'wort' made up to 1.040 with DME and allowed to ferment out. Add oxygen if you have it otherwise shake the shit out of it. That keeps the cost in check.
> 
> Go one step better, add a small amount of 'wort' to your starter at the beginning of your brew day, when it comes time to pitch, you're adding actively fermenting yeast to your beer, it starts fermenting straight away with no lag time - perfect.



Damn, just down coopers Canadian blonde with s23 1 satchet rehydrated overnight with a 1 litre started and 2 spoons of malt and looked pretty active, wont have a chance to get to a brew shop for more yeast should I through in the kit yeast as well?

Brewing in a brew fridge at 12 degree's just went in today.


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## Doctormcbrewdle (18/12/17)

You'll be fine as-is. Check out the Exbeeriment 'lager yeast pitch rate'. They pitch 1 pack vs 5 packs. Very interesting. I can also somewhat concur because I've done a few lagers with the same ingredients and yeast at 18 vs 12. No different for me.. 

They also did an exbeeriment in that, too


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## manticle (18/12/17)

Brulosophy found no difference between 1 and 5 packs with their mates in the shed? Whatever will they debunk next?


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## Doctormcbrewdle (18/12/17)

Well I don't think there'll be much difference between that and a can of Coopers premix at home man.. lets be real here


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## manticle (18/12/17)

According to brulosophy, there’s no discernible difference between anything, ever.

Except brewing salts and mash pH


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## Doctormcbrewdle (18/12/17)

Well I ended up going 100% BB ale malt to 1.040. Same Hallertau hop additions and yeast. It's just about done fermenting now, almost cold crash time and taste? Good! It pretty well tastes exactly the same as the other but presenting a little darker in colour. And that's including less malt and a further 4l brew water. Looking forward to seeing how it ages after lagering. Will keep you posted



Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Next up is the same done with ale malt instead as an exBeeriment you could say. I'll throw in 7-10% sucrose and maybe a tadd less bittering (latest done at 30 ibu which I wouldn't have thought would taste so bitter, must be the light malt)


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## Doctormcbrewdle (18/12/17)

Well, there it is.. Have you experimented personally? I've done the lager yeast temp exbeeriment and came up with the same result = no difference. You can't argue with results. That's called denial

Instead, I learn what I can from everyone I can, taking everything with a grain of salt until I can personally prove or debunk. I think that way you've covered all bases. 



manticle said:


> According to brulosophy, there’s no discernible difference between anything, ever.
> 
> Except brewing salts and mash pH


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## manticle (18/12/17)

Thanks. I know how it works. Funnily enough, a bunch of really knowledgeable, well educated and well funded groups and individuals throughout several decades and all across the globe have run much more well designed experiments and come up with completely different results to brulosophy - all with variables isolated, large sample groups and repeatability. Yet one bloke on the internet doing some half arsed shit with six mates and some free piss in multicoloured cups is enough to debunk all that and more in the minds of so many.

Yes I’ve brewed beer with less than adequate yeast. Many times.

Also brewed the same/similar recipes with recommended amounts from multiple packs, reused yeast slurry, active starters, etc. No reason for anyone but me to take my subjective experience on faith but high pitching rates have won for me just about every time. Active, adequate starters are my pick of choice, oxygenation next on my list.


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## manticle (18/12/17)

And you can always argue with results if the method is suspect. Look at Yellow Bamboo


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## labels (19/12/17)

Ben Hardman said:


> Damn, just down coopers Canadian blonde with s23 1 satchet rehydrated overnight with a 1 litre started and 2 spoons of malt and looked pretty active, wont have a chance to get to a brew shop for more yeast should I through in the kit yeast as well?
> 
> Brewing in a brew fridge at 12 degree's just went in today.


Should be fine, rdwhahb


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## Coodgee (20/12/17)

Dan Pratt said:


> nice coodgee.
> 
> what pH did you get for the mash?



5.23 +/- 0.05 to be precise!


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## Coodgee (21/12/17)

might as well keep spamming then... I rehydrated 3 packs of W34/70 last night and pitched about 9pm when the wort was at 10 degrees. let it rise to 11.5-11.8 after pitching. Not a sign of a Krausen in the morning but by 3pm this afternoon there was a thick white covering. 18 hours! that's similar to pitching 2 packs of US-05 at 18 degrees.


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## rude (21/12/17)

Coodgee said:


> 5.23 +/- 0.05 to be precise!
> 
> View attachment 110548



31.7c bit high there
I usually aim for 20 to 25c temp before checking my ph


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## labels (21/12/17)

Coodgee said:


> might as well keep spamming then... I rehydrated 3 packs of W34/70 last night and pitched about 9pm when the wort was at 10 degrees. let it rise to 11.5-11.8 after pitching. Not a sign of a Krausen in the morning but by 3pm this afternoon there was a thick white covering. 18 hours! that's similar to pitching 2 packs of US-05 at 18 degrees.


No matter what the yeast labs tell you, pitching with an actively fermenting yeast starter is the best way. For less than a hundred bucks you can get a stir plate and 3L flask from keg king or similar supplier, make up some 1.040 wort with DME and have that kicking before you add to your wort.

You will honestly be surprised at the results in quick starting no lag time, but the best part is the beer will be quicker to finish and be noticably much better


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## manticle (21/12/17)

I’m with you labels. Active starters make a pronounced difference.


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## rude (22/12/17)

labels said:


> No matter what the yeast labs tell you, pitching with an actively fermenting yeast starter is the best way. For less than a hundred bucks you can get a stir plate and 3L flask from keg king or similar supplier, make up some 1.040 wort with DME and have that kicking before you add to your wort.
> 
> You will honestly be surprised at the results in quick starting no lag time, but the best part is the beer will be quicker to finish and be noticably much better



So do you pitch 2 pkts into 1040 wort & spin that up in you’re 3 litre flask on top of you’re stir plate ?
Generally interested as I have always just rehydrated then pitched for dry yeast


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## hobospy (22/12/17)

Do you pitch the whole lot? I've been making starters but generally let them ferment out, chill, decant and then bring up to temp and pitch. Seems like I can skip a few steps and possibly get the ferment kicking in quicker, does this have much of an impact on the overall flavour of your beer?


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## manticle (22/12/17)

Active starters, you want to pitch the lot. However mine are made from identical wort (kettle dregs left to settle, decanted off any trub*) and I not use a stirplate or ferment at high temperatures.

@rude - I've only done with liquid. If I am making a big beer or a lager, I may do a 4-6 L starter with one pack, then as that gets added to the main batch, I add in another fresh pack. 

*Advantage of no chill.


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## rude (22/12/17)

manticle said:


> Active starters, you want to pitch the lot. However mine are made from identical wort (kettle dregs left to settle, decanted off any trub*) and I not use a stirplate or ferment at high temperatures.
> 
> @rude - I've only done with liquid. If I am making a big beer or a lager, I may do a 4-6 L starter with one pack, then as that gets added to the main batch, I add in another fresh pack.
> 
> *Advantage of no chill.



Same here only with liquid yeasts
Coodgee was using W34/70 pkt yeast then Labels chimed in with active starters so had my attention
As I said Ive only ever followed the instructions & rehydrated dried yeast then pitched into the wort
Will be interesting to see if Labels was on about liquid or dried yeast


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## Coodgee (22/12/17)

rude said:


> Same here only with liquid yeasts
> Coodgee was using W34/70 pkt yeast then Labels chimed in with active starters so had my attention
> As I said Ive only ever followed the instructions & rehydrated dried yeast then pitched into the wort
> Will be interesting to see if Labels was on about liquid or dried yeast



I've only ever made starters with _liquid _yeasts. The Mr Malty website claims "[dry yeast] does not require a starter. In fact, with most dry yeasts, placing them in a starter would just deplete the reserves that the yeast manufacturer worked so hard to build into the yeast. So I just rehydrate them as per usual instructions."

Personally if I'm doing a beer like a helles, IPA or pale ale and there is the same strain of yeast available in dry or liquid form (US-05 vs WY1056, W34/70 vs Wyeast 2124 etc) , I'll go the dry form because it's easier and I don't think there is any discernible difference to the finished beer. If I'm doing a Saison, wit, English ale etc where the yeast I want doesn't come in a dry form then I'll happily spin up a starter.

But especially with W34/70, the ease of pitching 3 packs is much preferable to making a huge starter from a pack of Wyeast 2124, IMHO.

...and regarding the wort temp when taking a mash ph reading. it was sitting in an ice bath and hit 20 degrees about a minute after I took that photo. the ph reading didn't change - the ATC is pretty good on that meter.


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## labels (22/12/17)

rude said:


> So do you pitch 2 pkts into 1040 wort & spin that up in you’re 3 litre flask on top of you’re stir plate ?
> Generally interested as I have always just rehydrated then pitched for dry yeast


For a 50 litre batch I use two pkts in the flask at 1.040 and at 2.5L. I let this ferment out completely and settle. I then tip off the beery liquid and add another 2.5L of DME about 8 hours before pitching which by that time is fermenting away nicely. I run the stir plate at around 22C-25C. Normally, 2 pkts is not enough in a 50L lager but this method seems to work well with the two-step method


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## shacked (23/12/17)

One pack is plenty! 

For liquid yeast, I’ll brew a lower gravity, smaller (15L cube) batch with a 2.5L starter and then repitch the slurry from that into other batches. I’ve found that transferring the beer off the yeast cake (into a keg for me) before cold crashing helps keep the viability of the yeast in good shape for the next fermentation.


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## Coldspace (23/12/17)

manticle said:


> Thanks. I know how it works. Funnily enough, a bunch of really knowledgeable, well educated and well funded groups and individuals throughout several decades and all across the globe have run much more well designed experiments and come up with completely different results to brulosophy - all with variables isolated, large sample groups and repeatability. Yet one bloke on the internet doing some half arsed shit with six mates and some free piss in multicoloured cups is enough to debunk all that and more in the minds of so many.
> 
> Yes I’ve brewed beer with less than adequate yeast. Many times.
> 
> Also brewed the same/similar recipes with recommended amounts from multiple packs, reused yeast slurry, active starters, etc. No reason for anyone but me to take my subjective experience on faith but high pitching rates have won for me just about every time. Active, adequate starters are my pick of choice, oxygenation next on my list.


1000% agree! anyone who says diff is still on a learning curve with lager making.
I always do large starters with my lagers, usually couple of 3 ltr stepped and decanted for 45 ltr batches. Always pitch at lower end of temp range of yeast and allow to go through to higher end of temp range in the last 10% of ferment. Oxygen as well.
My kit and kg friends I've set up as they are mega swill type blokes used to do coopers ales etc but I've shown them to do kit lagers at temp control of course and every time they only pitched one packet of yeast , I'd go over there and could taste the butters etc in their beers, ever since I have hassled them to invest in 2 pkt of yeast( hard to convince tight arse brewers lol) their brews are heaps better and they don't look back now.
I've pitched large starters in some of their brews and added oxygen and it's shown them the next level of quality again.

Interesting experiment I've just done on a lager, pressure fermented to see if the higher temps made any diff, well it made the ferment really fast, and you can still detect some slight esters from the yeast over the lower temp version, I'll put the results up in the pressure ferment thread.

Doctorsmcbrewdle, yes you can brew lager with less yeast, higher temps but it will leave unwanted flavours for style, I have even done a few of the brulosphy fast ferment techniques, ie pitch and allow to raise up and finish off, yes it makes an acceptable lager, but if you want a genuine clean lager then big pitches and hold low for the first 90% of ferment is the key.

There was a secret weapon that a lot of experienced lager winners used, it's called a stir plate.

Cheers


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## Doctormcbrewdle (27/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> Well I ended up going 100% BB ale malt to 1.040. Same Hallertau hop additions and yeast. It's just about done fermenting now, almost cold crash time and taste? Good! It pretty well tastes exactly the same as the other but presenting a little darker in colour. And that's including less malt and a further 4l brew water. Looking forward to seeing how it ages after lagering. Will keep you posted



Well, I'm drinking the first one as we speak..! How is it?.

For one reason or another, it's almost crystal clear already, less than a week (4 days) in the bottle. It has a nice golden hue with slightly 'sweeter' nose, reminiscent of your standard Aussie type lager to me. It's slightly more caramelly and possibly smoother. Though it's made to 4.4% abv rather than the usual 5.4 I do. Good to have something I can drink more of because geez this stuff's so damn tasty I end up getting totally wasted. You just can't help it! So will make an effort to brew lower abv from here on in because it really is starting to affect my life. Anyhow, on with the review. Though not quite ready yet, experience tells me what to expect after the green-ness subsides, it's a nice flavoursome, clean beer. Actually moreso than I expected with lower abv so glad to find that. May even go a little lower next time. Mouthfeel is really good. Not heavy, not too light, as I'd expect from a boutique lager. To be honest, most megaswill types have alot less body than this still and I'm confident you could go 10-20% simple sugar if you were trying to emulate something like that.

So, glad I did the experiment. It's safe to say I like it just as much as the Best Malz pilsner malt. So I will end up using the ale malt for something after all! I've since decided I kove Maris Otter for my ale's so much it'd be hard to go back to Aussie base malt for the time being

Cheers!


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## Doctormcbrewdle (27/12/17)

Question: Guys, I've read that it's not necessary to make a starter from dry yeast, only liquid to build up cells (I'm reading dried yeast has enough viable cells so long as we pitch the correct dose) what's the real go here?


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## timmi9191 (27/12/17)

True and false.
Yes pitch enough viable yeast is applicable to both dry and liquid yeasts.
However pitching enough is only part of the equation. Pitching enough viable yeast in a prime state (high krausen of the starter) is considered best practice.

For example i regularly use s-189, fresh and harvested. I always pitch the amount recommended by mr malty but also always start the yeast. 
Couple of 100g of dme costs sfa compared to a batch of lager full of phenolics


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## Doctormcbrewdle (27/12/17)

So, basically: Make a starter, no matter what if you want to make great beer?

I've never made one before. What do I do, exactly? Finding it fun all these extra steps to better brews!


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## shacked (27/12/17)

Doctormcbrewdle said:


> So, basically: Make a starter, no matter what if you want to make great beer?
> 
> I've never made one before. What do I do, exactly? Finding it fun all these extra steps to better brews!



It’s significantly more challenging to over-pitch than under-pitch. When in doubt pitch more yeast! 

Get yourself an Erlenmeyer flask or two. Make up some 10:1 water to DME wort (eg 100g of dme to 1L of water), boil for about 10 mins, chill and add yeast. 

You can ferment them a little hotter than usual should you please, and once fermentation is done you can decant the spent wort and pitch the yeast cake. The other option is to wait until the starter is at high krusen (fermenting like a banshee) and pitch the lot! 

A stir plate with bar will also help propagate more yeasties. With no stir plate you could just periodically shake the starter. 

Check the YouTubes; there are plenty of “how to” vids.


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## rude (27/12/17)

Coldspace said:


> 1000% agree! anyone who says diff is still on a learning curve with lager making.
> I always do large starters with my lagers, usually couple of 3 ltr stepped and decanted for 45 ltr batches. Always pitch at lower end of temp range of yeast and allow to go through to higher end of temp range in the last 10% of ferment. Oxygen as well.
> My kit and kg friends I've set up as they are mega swill type blokes used to do coopers ales etc but I've shown them to do kit lagers at temp control of course and every time they only pitched one packet of yeast , I'd go over there and could taste the butters etc in their beers, ever since I have hassled them to invest in 2 pkt of yeast( hard to convince tight arse brewers lol) their brews are heaps better and they don't look back now.
> I've pitched large starters in some of their brews and added oxygen and it's shown them the next level of quality again.
> ...



Yes but do you make a starter for dried yeast like Labels or just rehydrate & pitch the correct amount
Also the 5 x min 10 x max rule for stepped starters is the go


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## timmi9191 (27/12/17)

rude said:


> ...or just rehydrate & pitch the correct amount..



Oh no...


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## rude (27/12/17)

Didnt mean to start the old debate sorry


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## Doctormcbrewdle (27/12/17)

Supercalla-freakinawesone. Thanks man!


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## Coldspace (27/12/17)

Na, just grow up from 1 ltr to 2.5 ltr x2 usually plenty for standard lager

I always grow my dried yeasts up, works a treat


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## Coodgee (1/1/18)

so I ended up with a rather unexpected result with my beer. To recap, I rehydrated 3 packs of W34/70 and pitched into a 1047 wort of 100% pils malt and fermented at 11.5-12 degrees. It has finished fermenting at 1013/1014. I took a hydrometer reading after about 6 days when the krausen started to drop and it was reading about 1014 then. I raised up the temp to 18 for a D rest and today it was still at 1014 according to the hydrometer. I was surprised so I took a refractometer reading and adjusted with a calculator and it gave me 1013. This is obviously quite high. With a multi-step mash of 55-62-70 I got a beersmith estimate of 1007. Not to worry though, it will still be quite nice and actually tastes quite dry with a nice bready aroma to it. And now I have a massive yeast cake to try again with. I am quite tempted to do the exact beer again, or maybe an adjunct lager.


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (2/1/18)

With a yeast cake like that you can do high gravity lagers. Think Baltic Porter, bock etc


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## Doctormcbrewdle (23/2/18)

Update. Well, with possibly a few tips here I found my lager's improving, but still not quite 100% bang on. Until I bought some Weyerman pils malt. I'd been using JW prior to this and the difference is night and day. Wow!

The JW always had something that wasn't quite Pilsner in it's finish, a heaviness of mouthfeel that I could never quite seem to get around hence asking where I might've been going wrong. The Weyerman is incredible stuff! It's just the standard pilsner malt vesion but no desire to try their premium version yet

So for anyone possibility not quite happy with their light lager, one word: Weyerman

Cheers!


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## MHB (23/2/18)

Do try the Premium Pilsner, I think its even better than the standard Weyermann Pilsner.
I suspect JW assume you are going to be adding a fair wack of adjunct/sugar and design the malt accordingly. Weyermann certainly wouldn't be making that sort of assumption.
Mark


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## Doctormcbrewdle (23/2/18)

Thanks Mark

Wow, I can't wait to try the premium then! I'll take a look at that online in that case

Cheers for the JW info too, it makes good sense now seeming many of the mega Aussie beers are probably using it knowing they also use sucrose


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## Dan Pratt (24/2/18)

And after premium try Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner, that malt is amazing.


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## MHB (24/2/18)

I love the Floor Malted, it's Czech barley floor malted in Bamberg.
Apparently its about as close to what would have been used in the original Pilsner Urquell as you can get. I also like it in a fuller bodied Wheat beer (think winter weight Heff).
On the three
Weyermann Pilsner - North German, lighter dryer crisper lagers.
Weyermann Premium Pilsner - South German/Bohemian beers with more fullness and maltiness (more my cup of tea).
Weyermann Floor malted - Very Bohemian, bigger fuller and maltier, being floor malted a little more colour and complexity, does reward a classic step mash regime, a Glucan/Protein rest followed by some time at 62, 65, 70oC, Mash Out is ideal.
If you ever want to try decoction - Choose this malt!
Mark


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## Doctormcbrewdle (24/2/18)

You guys serious.. surely it can't get much better than this. Lookin forward to trying!


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## Doctormcbrewdle (24/2/18)

Here's a piccie, just for kicks


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