# All grain quality from extract beer?



## bmarshall (13/12/13)

Is it possible to get near all grain quality in kit or extract beer?
Ive done four kit brews so far and cant stand to drink a whole glass of any one.
My lasy was a brown/dark ale mangrove jacks and breiss munich lmd with 100g of casc and cent.
I like hoppy beers and so far 100g of hops just isnt doing it for me. I may need to almost double this amount.
How much hopps do people use for a good hoppy brew similar to hop hog, alpha queen, roadtrip, hop zone and epic or green flash IPA?
My toucan was just ok. Too bitter, not good ballance and the weird twang flavor!
Only the amarillo FWK was decent.
Cheers.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (13/12/13)

In my opinion no. My AG beer is hands down better. 

It's not just that the ingredients are better and offer more flexibility, one's techniques are both part of the flexibility as well as improved by the process. 

I know some make excellent extract beer, but I've never done so myself.


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## Mick Gramoit (13/12/13)

In terms of Hops, I just threw in 220g of Mosaic and Simcoe in my Hoppy Session IPA that I brewed today. I would say if you like your IPA/Hoppy beers (I certainly do), you need to put in 200g plus of hops in a 18-20 L batch. But it always depends on what style of beer you are brewing obviously (So far I have just brewed American IPAs).
I never did extract so I can not answer the first question, but All grain is pretty awesome.


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## manticle (13/12/13)

Use a high quality extract like Briess or weyermann. It won't be AG necessarily (although some extract brewers have won National awards with extract bews) but a good extract will be head and shoulders above your kit brews if your fermentation and sanitation are up to scratch.

You need good fermentation and sanitation practice regardless of ingredients or method.


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## Mardoo (13/12/13)

Another vote for the Briess and Weyermann extracts. My last extract beer was a dunkel that I did with the Briess liquid Munich, among others. That's the first time I got close to what I have gotten with my AG attempts. I fully prefer AG, but those are very good extracts.


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## HBHB (14/12/13)

The malt extracts you're buying are made by experts in the field who know what they're doing. With this in mind, they're made to create a specific style when talking kits and they have to meet budgetary constraints plus buyer wants & needs. If a kit doesn't meet a home brewers wants, then their best bet is extract brewing or grain brewing.

In unhopped extracts, the same applies, there's very few styles that can't be made by extract and the rest are easily covered by blending the myriad of styles of extracts along with steeping grains or doing a mini mash. IMHO, (for what it's worth) brewers have never had it so good with access to a huge range of affordable malt extracts to make great beers at home. Again, these are made in commercial breweries around the world to exacting standards and are, in most cases, of an excellent standard. If treated well, using a little thought and process control including good sanitising methods, decent yeast and hops stored well, along with appropriate temperature control and general fermentation methods, quite capable of being turned into outstanding beer. 

If you want to have a little artistic license over the design and want to take the step into a wider range of choices for colour, flavour and aroma, then grain brewing is for you. It's not that grain is necessarily "better". It's about what you as an individual want to achieve and how involved in the process you wish to become.

I work long hours in the retail side of the industry and have extensive commitments outside of that, so time is all important. I prefer grain brewing because i love the process and creative side, but won't hesitate to do an extract brew and play around with the latest kits to know and understand their characteristics and stay on top of what's on the shelves. If i don't know the products, i can't advise on them.

Every brewer will brew to their own level according to the information and gear available to them. BUT, i think if more brewers and brewsters understood just how easy grain brewing was and they had an interest in it, then we'd see a lot more doing it and for good reason. 

Each to their own.

Martin


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## stakka82 (14/12/13)

I made some good extract beers and one or two are probably in my all time top 20, but the rest are all grain...

I think some of it probably comes down to the fact that most people are less experienced when they're in the extract 'bridging' phase, but I never had one that totally blew my socks off like some of my better AG efforts have.


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## pcmfisher (14/12/13)

I think its a quantum leap from kits to unhopped extract.
For me, the difference in quality between kits and extract is bigger than extract to all grain.

To me all kit brews have that same kit taste which I don't get with extract brews.


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## dammag (14/12/13)

I agree with pcmfisher.

I've made some good extract brews and never got that kit twang. As has been said, they might not be AG quality but they are perfectly acceptable.

Having said that, stovetop BIAB is easy if you want to have a go at AG. If you brew for the experience as well as the beer then this is a great way to get into AG. I try and do 1 stovetop BIAB a week.

If you just want decent beer to drink then extract might be the go.

The thing is with a really hoppy beer you might have to do a full boil to get the most out of the hops or try some other methods like hop tea's? If you are doing a full boil then you really might as well go BIAB.


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## indica86 (14/12/13)

Even some crystal / specialty grains + hops can help with the taste of kit brews


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## Adr_0 (14/12/13)

doesn't sound good that you struggled to finish a glass. does sound good that there's lots of room for improvement. 

as Manticle said, sanitation and cleanliness is a massive part, but also consistent temperature control - if you can a fridge with a temp controller, that will help big time.

i think fresh, good quality extract is a big part of it. if you add some freshly crushed, good quality spec malts - e.g. Weyermann or Thomas Fawcett - and steep at 60-70°C for 30min, keep things clean and sanitised, then pitch a decent yeast and keep the temperature constant you're a long way to a very tasty beer. get some Starsan and PBW, or search for Napisan/sodium percarbonate on here.

you could also be super-sentive to some of the off flavours in beer: acetaldehyde, chlorophenols, sulphurs.

it might not match the depth of flavour of AG, but your beer should be bloody tasty - no reason you couldn't finish 6 glasses.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (14/12/13)

2 pot stovetop with ghetto lauter FTW! I've got 38L of bitter from it at a pinch.


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## Adr_0 (14/12/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> 2 pot stovetop with ghetto lauter FTW! I've got 38L of bitter from it at a pinch.


Wouldn't that be AG? 

Though I've never had the pleasure, pretty sure this guy ^ makes awesome beer, so that shows two things: LRG would be all over cleanliness/sanitation/yeast health/ingredients; and if you do decide to go AG there are cheaper and easier ways that the 2-3V lummoxes out there like me.


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## bmarshall (14/12/13)

Thanks guys


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## verysupple (14/12/13)

Personally, I think fermentation is far more important than wort production as long as you don't go nuts with specialty malts etc. - early on in my AG brewing I decided I was making a dark, old ale which was pretty bad (way too much dark crystal and chocolate malt).

What yeasts did you use and how did you control fermentation temperature?

As for hops, how are you using them? Boiled in wort? Boiled in water? Dry hopped? Hop tea? The way you use hops makes a huge difference to the outcome.


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## Bizier (14/12/13)

You should be able to make decent hoppy beer with FRESH unhopped pale extract plus steeping grains.

A big factor is doing the largest boil you can manage with your available equipment, plus the associated chilling times to halt degradation of the sexy aromatic oil fractions in the hops.

OR... you could just go AG and be a real brewer h34r:


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## Bizier (14/12/13)

And not every all-grain beer is of high quality, I have made a couple of infected and ill-conceived ones and I have tasted some absolute abominations from other brewers.


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## QldKev (14/12/13)

my 2c, I would not spend the time it takes to make AG if I didn't think it was a better final product. You can make good beers with extract, but you can make awesome beers with AG. Even the simplest BIAB setup can make awesome beers, BribieG has won a few awards using a basic urn setup.


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## Bribie G (14/12/13)

One of the problems with extract brewing in Australia is that we are a small market and most extract is made for baking and confectionery by companies such as Wander, and they don't really have the home brewer in mind. Who knows what temperature they mash it at, or how they extract the wort. I'd guess they mash and extract to give the maximum $$$ and quality beer isn't even on their radar. If the extract is old it can give a twang, and Light dried malt extract regularly gave me a bad chill haze.

For the brewer, companies such as Coopers and Morgans do indeed make it in their own mashtuns, mostly for the kits but they spin off some tins of pure extract as well, I'd guess that's a minor part of the trade. And it's good quality but as dear as poison compared to AG brewing. There's also the danger that it's been sitting in an un-airconditioned LHBS for a year.
A reliable source of Briess and Wey. extract would be the best option, from a high turnover source like CB or MHB or ESB to name but 3

I find a good middle ground is to pimp a kit with a mini mash. This works very well for Coopers lighter kits such as Cerveza or Canadian plus a 2 kilo mini mash, appropriate hops and a good yeast.

However once you get to that stage you might as well go AG anyway.

Edit: The best kit on the market IMHO is Coopers stout, and although I didn't win anything I got marked about mid field with a RIS made on Coopers plus LDME and dex in the Nationals. Oh those crazy days of my youth.

h34r:

Edit edit: when Oakey Maltings were still going I know for a fact that they used to sell their "below spec" malts to extract companies. They once did a heap for Milo (which is made in Gympie I believe).
I actually brewed with some of that and whilst not dreadful, it wasn't the best. OK for a dollar a kilo and tricked up with some spec malts.


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## Adr_0 (14/12/13)

Bmarshall, do you have temp control for your fermentation? Any idea how hot the yeast gets? 

Can you describe what the flavour is like that makes you not want to finish the beer? Sour, solvent/alcohol, bandaids, apples or cider, metallic, burnt caramel?


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/12/13)

Bribie

Milo is made at Smithtown, about 20min grom Kempsey


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## carniebrew (14/12/13)

bmarshall said:


> Is it possible to get near all grain quality in kit or extract beer?
> Ive done four kit brews so far and cant stand to drink a whole glass of any one.
> My lasy was a brown/dark ale mangrove jacks and breiss munich lmd with 100g of casc and cent.
> I like hoppy beers and so far 100g of hops just isnt doing it for me. I may need to almost double this amount.
> ...


Mate, why even call it "all grain quality"? It's easy to make a crap all grain beer. What you really need to ask is if it's possible to make top quality beer using extract...and the answer is absolutely. But you have to get your process and recipes right.

Read the intro (for free) of Brewing Classic Styles, every recipe in there is an award winning extract brew, from Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer themselves. If that doesn't convince you that extract can make shit hot beers, then nothing will.....

Even ignoring that book, make a self hopped extract version of Dr Smurto's golden ale using (fresh) Coopers extract tins, and if you can't get through a glass of that, going to all grain is unlikely to help...you gotta be messing it up somewhere...


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## dammag (14/12/13)

Have a look at post 5833 in the "What's in The Glass" thread.

Answers the question.


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## Bribie G (14/12/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Bribie
> 
> Milo is made at Smithtown, about 20min grom Kempsey


 :icon_offtopic: until Trainee Abbott sends it to China.


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## bmarshall (14/12/13)

I have keg king temp control with fridge and heat pad. I ferment at 19+/- 0.5. US05 or BRY 97. I use a 15l pot and boil with 10l. I only boil the lme or dme for the longest hop addition. I add hopped can to brew pot at end of boil then dump into fermenter.I buy hops from hopdealz. Sanitation is always done to everything. I add to fermenter 10-13l of cold water from a plastic jerry i leave in brew fridge over night to knock the temp out of the boil. Useally comes down to 30 deg then cool for couple hours till i pitch at no more than 24-25 deg. The Twang i get is like a bitter metalic unplesant taste.


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## dammag (14/12/13)

I'd say get an experienced brewer to look at your method and taste your beer. Lots of people have much worse practices than that and still make good beer.


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## yum beer (14/12/13)

Is your plastic jerry 'food safe' or is it 'fuel' type. Is it sealed air tight and all air removed before sealing up and putting in fridge.
Every thing else seems to be OK.


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## bmarshall (15/12/13)

Yeh should be food safe. Jerry can is a willow brand.
Ive got a couple of FWKs just to replenish the stock as i need the bottles from my last disaster.
I have byo mags with recipes ill have to follow.


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## unclebarrel (15/12/13)

Hi bmarshal,
My only advice would be to move away from kits and go all extract.
Kits have their place, don't get me wrong but I found that kits didn't give me what I wanted.
With unhopped extract you get to choose your bittering hops, and try compliment with flavour/aroma additions.
Maybe think about adding spec grains to liven up the flavour a little.
I use Ianh's spreadsheet to try get close to style and balanced as I can.

Good luck with it !

UB


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## carniebrew (15/12/13)

Get rid of the hopped can, you're basically doing full extract now anyway. Add some specialty grain to your recipe too.

Try chilling your pot in an ice bath post boil, before straining into fermenter and adding top up water. Actually does your top up water taste OK straight out of the tap? If not you might want to pre boil it (but hopefully you don't have to).

You could even freeze 2l of boiled water and add it to your pot to speed up the chill. Try to get it lower so you're pitching around 20 instead of 25. You want to pitch as quickly as you can after top up, but at the right temp.


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## manticle (15/12/13)

If you freeze it, make sure you do it in a sanitised, covered container as freezing will not kill bacteria.


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## unclebarrel (15/12/13)

Good points carnie and manticle.

I use a couple (if necessary) 2L ice-cream tubs. Sanitised then filled, lid on and frozen.
Stick fermenter in laundry tub full of cold water and dump in 1 or 2 of the large ice blocks.
I find it brings down to pitching temps in pretty much under and hour.

As long as you are clean and sanitary in all dealings you should not get infections….I haven't…..


…so far !! haha



All in lieu of acquiring a wort chiller of course !


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## DU99 (15/12/13)

cooper's and morgans are not the only extract maker..black rock make a good unhopped extract....and you can it cheap here and buy in a mixed lot..


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/12/13)

manticle said:


> If you freeze it, make sure you do it in a sanitised, covered container as freezing will not kill bacteria.


I often wondered about that.


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## indica86 (15/12/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I often wondered about that.


Just like yeast isn't killed in the freezer...


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/12/13)

Yeast will survive being frozen if used with glycerine


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## manticle (15/12/13)

Freezing will send most microflora dormant. The defrosting process can rupture cell walls and obviously we want our yeast numbers to be at the highest level and in the healthiest state possible prior to use so freezing is not a good process (except using glycerine as stated). However low temp will not immediately destroy yeast, unlike high enough temp will.


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## unclebarrel (15/12/13)

+1 for the Black Rock extracts DU99.
I have used the ultra light a couple of times. I like the pale colour it has.


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## carniebrew (15/12/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Yeast will survive being frozen if used with glycerine


That's liquid yeast. Dry yeast can be frozen, if it's in the original packaging:
http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/freezing-dry-yeast

Freezing is considered (by Danstar anyway) to be better than keeping it at room temp, but in the fridge is optimal.


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## zeggie (15/12/13)

I reckon my worst all grain has been superior to my best extract/kit.

All grain is so easy I wish I jumped into way earlier.


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## bmarshall (15/12/13)

Thanks guys.
Ill have a few attempts at unhopped extract then.
Even though i waste some brews and $ i still enjoy the process.
Im keen to go AG but want a little more experience under my belt.


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## indica86 (15/12/13)

If you sign up with the Coopers website, they regularly have free shipping, recipe packs and a discount for members. Works ut cheaper than the Blackrock cans with $30 + shipping.
Goes some steeping grains and you'll see.
I have only just started AG and the only equipment I bought was a 19L pot from BigW. I wanted to see if it is worthwhile.
My first AG was a very simple Centennial Pale and by far exceeds ANYTHING I have drunk from can mixes or extracts.

Jump in.


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## zeggie (15/12/13)

Yeah, I was going to use the 19l or 2 x 19l bigw pot method, but a cheap 40l urn came up on ebay.

I find the whole process so much easier and you have so much control over everything! I agree jump in


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (15/12/13)

My 2 pot method [email protected]


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## zeggie (15/12/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> My 2 pot method [email protected]


Haha I read and re-read your thread probably a dozen times....then an urn popped up on ebay and put a spanner in the works 

Great thread, shows how insanely cheap it is to get stuck into AG. Never go back to kits afterwards


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (15/12/13)

zeggie said:


> Haha I read and re-read your thread probably a dozen times....then an urn popped up on ebay and put a spanner in the works
> 
> Great thread, shows how insanely cheap it is to get stuck into AG. Never go back to kits afterwards


Thanks mate for that. Sometimes you put it out there, for the sake of sharing knowledge but you wonder if it actually helps.

Honesty, I'm still using it across 2 states and won awards. It's a great cheap way to produce wort. I reckon my best beer has never made it to a comp.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (15/12/13)

Oh and zeggie, were the vids of any help?


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## zeggie (15/12/13)

I was reading the thread before the vids were posted I think, as I don't remember them. Just watched them in that thread now and great stuff. Every newbie should watch.

All my mates quit at the kit and kilo stage (nearly myself included), I'm really glad I spent the bucks and got a 2nd hand fridge for temperature control went into AG. Now all my mates
want back in haha


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (15/12/13)

zeggie said:


> I was reading the thread before the vids were posted I think, as I don't remember them. Just watched them in that thread now and great stuff. Every newbie should watch.
> 
> All my mates quit at the kit and kilo stage (nearly myself included), I'm really glad I spent the bucks and got a 2nd hand fridge for temperature control went into AG. Now all my mates
> want back in haha


Then get them to watch the thread vids.


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## verysupple (15/12/13)

Getting back to the question, "All grain quality from extract beer?". Of course you can make "all grain quality" beer from extracts, how do you think the extract was made?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (15/12/13)

verysupple said:


> Getting back to the question, "All grain quality from extract beer?". Of course you can make "all grain quality" beer from extracts, how do you think the extract was made?


and dehydrated veges came from fresh veges once.

as I've said - some very good beers can be made with extract, but it isn't the same.


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## Bizier (15/12/13)

What Raja said, it is the handling that makes the difference. Applies to any just-add-water product.


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## carniebrew (15/12/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> and dehydrated veges came from fresh veges once.
> as I've said - some very good beers can be made with extract, but it isn't the same.


LRG would you tell Jamil that if you met him? It's too broad a statement surely. It really depends what you're trying to brew. Pale lager you might struggle, but I'd bet London to a brick nobody could pick my extract dunkelweizen in a tasting.


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## fletcher (15/12/13)

in my opinion when you need to include things and add things to make a kit better, or to hide a twang, you're admitting to yourself that the product is inferior. i was completely surprised how easy BIAB is. it really isn't hard. i made 2 kits, hated them, started on BIAB and never looked back.

by the time you start doing things like boiling wort, adding hops, steeping grains, you're basically 95% AG-ing anyway so why not get the few extra tools and mash? i don't think you need kit 'experience' to make 'better' beers before starting on AG; well at least i didn't. jump in the deep end and do your learning while doing brew in a bag.


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## Black Devil Dog (15/12/13)

I went from kits to BIAB and while I was happy with the some of the results from my kits, I was truly blown away with how good my AG beer is.

I never went extract/steeping grains, because it didn't seem that much more effort, to go AG.


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## Adr_0 (16/12/13)

carniebrew said:


> LRG would you tell Jamil that if you met him? It's too broad a statement surely. It really depends what you're trying to brew. Pale lager you might struggle, but I'd bet London to a brick nobody could pick my extract dunkelweizen in a tasting.


Yeah - I was thinking a couple of pages back, base malts are probably the one genuine and definite difference in quality. E.g. Maris Otter, Weyermann Pils/Vienna/Munich. We don't quite have the availability and turnover of quality extract that the Seppos do.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (16/12/13)

carniebrew said:


> LRG would you tell Jamil that if you met him? It's too broad a statement surely. It really depends what you're trying to brew. Pale lager you might struggle, but I'd bet London to a brick nobody could pick my extract dunkelweizen in a tasting.


Yes, I would tell Jamil that. 

I've had some very good dark ales with extract. Anything dark or very hoppy will hide a great deal of twang.

But I agree with the point that if you steeping, boiling hops and the like, you're doing most of it and the time saving of extract isn't there anymore. I've proved that you can do great AG beer with minimal equipment outlay. 

If it is just add water fermenting because you're time poor, different thing. You gotta do what you gotta do. But again, you're not doing it to get "AG quality" beer. 

I've been on both sides of the imaginary divide. I reckon 15 years spanning that to give some weight to the opinion. And I know which of my beet I prefer.


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## Bribie G (16/12/13)

Your extract is really the same thing as Nescafe Blend 43, and Nestle KNOW that it's fodder, hence the millions of dollars they spend on totally ridiculous advertising to prop up its falling sales "We will build our love on common ground..." FFS it's just crap instant COFFEE ...

Companies are always tweaking tweaking tweaking and trying to bring out new embellishments on instant coffee such as self foaming capuccino sachets and now they even have an instant coffee called Azera that has an enhanced flavour because ... wait for it .......they have actually put some _coffee _into it. :unsure:

Extract beers with heaps of spec grains and hops are really the Azera of the home brew world, striving and striving. However at the end of the day isn't it better to make your own "extract" or, if you don't have time, buy a FWK and trick it up yourself. At $14 a tin for extract, I'd guess FWKs are pretty much in the same price league.


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## verysupple (16/12/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> and dehydrated veges came from fresh veges once.
> 
> as I've said - some very good beers can be made with extract, but it isn't the same.


I don't see how extract brewing is that different. It's not like all AG brewing techniques are the same. People always say you have more control over the final product with AG, but the level of control a brewer has varies hugely depending on their setup. i.e. a 3V HERMS system isn't the same as mashing in an Esky which isn't the same as BIAB.

Sure, you can't do a 5 step mash schedule or a continuous ramp with extract brewing but you can't with an Esky either.

There's no doubting that you certainly have a wider variety of grains to choose from for AG but the issue is the _quality _of the beer, not the _variety_ or 'uniqueness' (read: "I tried to brew witbier but I messed up and now I'm calling it a 'Belgian specialty ale' ") of the beers you can brew.


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## bum (16/12/13)

verysupple said:


> Sure, you can't do a 5 step mash schedule or a continuous ramp with extract brewing but you can't with an Esky either.


Absolutely untrue on the stepping there. Your entire position is incorrect. Even the simplest of AG setups has vastly more control over the fermentability of wort than any extract method.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (16/12/13)

bum said:


> Absolutely untrue on the stepping there. Your entire position is incorrect. Even the simplest of AG setups has vastly more control over the fermentability of wort than any extract method.



the man is 100% correct. 

A single infusion mash schedule on BIAB is the same as ghetto, the same as 3V - assuming brewer skill is the same. 

I strongly refute the suggestion that BIAB is inferior beer to 3V beer otherwise brewed under the same conditions. 

Some members have been doing stepped mashes, hochhurz and decoction mashes on the stove (I have) and BIAB.


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## QldKev (16/12/13)

As someones who BIAB'd for years, and now has a 3V and a 1V setup, I agree with LRG. All systems can make excellent beer in the hands of a good brewer. I've only moved from BIAB as I find stepped mashes easier on a system with recirculation; not better just easier.


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## Adr_0 (16/12/13)

verysupple said:


> Sure, you can't do a 5 step mash schedule or a continuous ramp with extract brewing but you can't with an Esky either.


Sure you can... I did 5-step infusion mash (acid, protein, beta, alpha, mash out) on a hefeweizen with very limited recirc capability. While the beer was delicious, my hair did suffer: I went from Fabio to Smeagol in just two hours...


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## Bribie G (16/12/13)

Stepping is actually the "default" for BIAB because, assuming you are going to take the entire wort volume up to the boil, you may as well do that in steps during the mashing then hoist the bag once mashout has been accomplished. In other words the step mash comes "for free". On topic, who knows what they mash the malt at when they are making extract, could be a twenty minute mash at 72 degrees for all we know. The kits seem to attenuate extremely low so I guess their mash is different to say Wander liquid malt. Either way you take pot luck.


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## verysupple (16/12/13)

bum said:


> Absolutely untrue on the stepping there. Your entire position is incorrect. Even the simplest of AG setups has vastly more control over the fermentability of wort than any extract method.


Firstly, I don't think I made my point very clear. My point was that, yes, you have more control with AG but different systems allow different levels of control. So couldn't extract be considered only slightly less control than a somewhat limiting AG setup? You can adjust the fermentatbility of extract brews with things like dextrose and maltodextrin. 

Secondly, sure, you _could_ do a 5 step mash in an Esky if it was big enough and you started with a really thick mash and ended up with a really, really thin mash, but most people probably wouldn't bother.

And thirdly, how is my entire position incorrect? Are you saying it's _impossible _to make a great extract beer? To reiterate my original point, you probably can't make an award winning beer of every style with extract but that doesn't mean you can't make _any _great beer.


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## verysupple (16/12/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> the man is 100% correct.
> 
> A single infusion mash schedule on BIAB is the same as ghetto, the same as 3V - assuming brewer skill is the same.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that any AG method was superior or inferior, just that they're different. For a single infusion they're probably pretty much the same except for lautering efficiency and stuff like that. 

And for the record I do stepped mashes on my stove in a sort of maxiBIAB method.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (16/12/13)

Point 1 and 2 contradict each other.

AG systems don't offer different levels of control but different levels of ease to produce wort.

and point 3, I said you can make very good beer with extract in an earlier post.

With regard to altering fermentation ability, maltose and dextrose are poor imitation alternatives to a proper temp controlled mash, hands down.


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## carniebrew (16/12/13)

It's hard to stick to the question here as there's always so much emotion on the subject. But there's plenty of examples of excellent extract beers out there that show it can be done. Given the issues around extract age/quality it's likely you'll make better beer more often using all grain, but the simple fact is that extract can make great beer.

I only have to go back to my first ever (at home) full extract brew, a DSGA, using a can of Coopers light LME, a can of Coopers wheat LME and 250gm crystal....all done in an 8 litre boil with late extract addition (fermented at 18C with US-05). It got 38/50 from one of the judges in the big Vic comp I put it in (late 2012, I can't recall the name of the comp). None of the three judges said anything about twang or using extract. Has anyone made an all grain pale ale that's scored less than 38 out of 50? If so, then I guess you can say you can make "all grain quality" beer with extract.

EDIT: For clarity for anyone reading this thread later, I finally recalled the name of the compmaster website...it was actually Beerfest 2013 I entered my extract DSGA into, and it got 36/50 from one judge, not 38. Interestingly that judge gave it a 17/20 in the "Flavour" section with comments such as "Well balanced, clean, hoppy". The other judges scored it 33 and 29 respectively (but of course I only believe the 36 guy!)


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## verysupple (16/12/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Point 1 and 2 contradict each other.
> 
> AG systems don't offer different levels of control but different levels of ease to produce wort.
> 
> ...


Hey, nobody said it was ideal, but I don't see how it's any different to using a bit of carapils in an AG batch to get the mouth feel and body you want. As you said, a good temp controlled mash should give you that. Why is carapils accepted and additives that do the same thing aren't?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (16/12/13)

Carapils is a core ingredient. Dextrose is an adjunct. 

And with AG there are more ways to get body than Carapils. High temperature mashes,the grist makeup, stepped mashes etc.


Without sounding disparaging, using Carapils as an example indicates a level of inexperience. Maybe have a go at AG for a while with good recipe then post back.


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## bum (16/12/13)

verysupple said:


> So couldn't extract be considered only slightly less control than a somewhat limiting AG setup?


No, you have almost zero control over the fermentability of the extract (you could change this by using dry enzyme, of course, but yuck).



verysupple said:


> You can adjust the fermentatbility of extract brews with things like dextrose and maltodextrin.


And pitch/aeration rates as well but these apply equally to AG brews (unless we want to start the old (and, thankfully, long absent) argument about adjuncts preventing a beer from being AG).



verysupple said:


> Secondly, sure, you _could_ do a 5 step mash in an Esky if it was big enough and you started with a really thick mash and ended up with a really, really thin mash, but most people probably wouldn't bother.


You said it couldn't be done and went on to frame that as your reasoning that extract is essentially the same as non-automated AG. This position is patently false and is the point I disputed.



verysupple said:


> Are you saying it's _impossible _to make a great extract beer?


Where did I say anything that even remotely points towards this? You can even quote other threads if you like.


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## verysupple (16/12/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Carapils is a core ingredient. Dextrose is an adjunct.
> 
> And with AG there are more ways to get body than Carapils. High temperature mashes,the grist makeup, stepped mashes etc.
> 
> ...


Well I've been put in my place. I guess all that experience and AG batches I brewed "with good recipes" were a waste of time because I thought that a malt that increases body, mouthfeel and head retention without adding colour or flavour was analagous to an adjunct that does the exact same thing. 

Anyway, we're straying a bit OT. Control of the processes isn't the issue here and I'll always believe it's _possible _to get "AG quality from exctract beer" (whatever that means, as I think Carnie pointed out right near the start of the thread) and others will always disagree. That's the last from me in this thread.


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## Adr_0 (16/12/13)

carniebrew said:


> It's hard to stick to the question here as there's always so much emotion on the subject. But there's plenty of examples of excellent extract beers out there that show it can be done. Given the issues around extract age/quality it's likely you'll make better beer more often using all grain, but the simple fact is that extract can make great beer.
> 
> I only have to go back to my first ever (at home) full extract brew, a DSGA, using a can of Coopers light LME, a can of Coopers wheat LME and 250gm crystal....all done in an 8 litre boil with late extract addition (fermented at 18C with US-05). *It got 38/50 from one of the judges in the big Vi*c comp I put it in (late 2012, I can't recall the name of the comp). None of the three judges said anything about twang or using extract. Has anyone made an all grain pale ale that's scored less than 38 out of 50? If so, then I guess you can say you can make "all grain quality" beer with extract.


And interestingly on this, I had a Bohemian pils in the last QABC that got something like 19 or 20. It was marked down because:
- I didn't de-chlorinate my water and used bleach in a secondary without rinsing adequately; and
- I only boiled for 75min and didn't cool fast enough (water bath - usually I would have a hand with 2 x immersion chillers; now I have a plate chiller)

In other words, chlorophenols and DMS.

The recipe was absolutely beautiful and it was well mashed and well fermented, but these problems will get you whether you Brau in your Meister or do K&K.


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## Parks (16/12/13)

Adr_0 said:


> And interestingly on this, I had a Bohemian pils in the last QABC that got something like 19 or 20. It was marked down because:
> - I didn't de-chlorinate my water and used bleach in a secondary without rinsing adequately; and
> - I only boiled for 75min and didn't cool fast enough (water bath - usually I would have a hand with 2 x immersion chillers; now I have a plate chiller)
> 
> ...


I believe chlorophenols will only affect mash brewers and these get really nasty. I had to tip an English IPA that I ruined by not de-chlorinating. There is a lot of conflicting argument whether or not fast chilling causes DMS too.

DMS also shouldn't affect extract brewers as it's mainly in the wort production step.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (16/12/13)

No one has put you in your place and I'm sorry if it appears that way.

I think I and a number of brewers took exception to the comment that you can't get AG flexibility without 3V.

I've held that very good beers can be made with extract.


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## Adr_0 (16/12/13)

Parks said:


> I believe chlorophenols will only affect mash brewers and these get really nasty. I had to tip an English IPA that I ruined by not de-chlorinating. There is a lot of conflicting argument whether or not fast chilling causes DMS too.
> 
> DMS also shouldn't affect extract brewers as it's mainly in the wort production step.


You're right, DMS won't be in extract beers at all. From what I read, a decent boil solves 90% of hte problem and I didn't do this. A boil of 90 or 120min gets your precursor (can't remember what it is... DSS?) down to basically nothing. This must be the case, otherwise our no-chilling friends would be cooking vegies each time they crack a beer, right? I think I unfortunately did both: a short boil (leaving some precursor there) and a slow chill, allowing it to convert to DMS.

Chlorophenols can still be an issue with fermentation, regardless of how you got your wort - particularly using bleach. Cl likes to bond to stuff, whether it's in the mash or to products of yeast.

I guess my - absent, or pooly made at best - point was that your processes have a massive impact on your beer, even if you make delicious wort. And I guess if these problems are exclusive to - or primarily associated with - AG, then that is something to consider if anyone wants to switch. Definitely not the magic pill, but does open you up to some amazing beers if you do it well.


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## verysupple (16/12/13)

I know I said I was done for this topic...

No hard feelings.

Yeah, sorry, I didn't make my point very well. I never meant 3V allowed more control or anything like that. I only meant that there are many ways to get the job done.





Parks said:


> I believe chlorophenols will only affect mash brewers and these get really nasty.


I hope this isn't getting too far OT but that's an interesting comment. I thought chorophenols were produced either by the yeast doing some biochem mumbo jumbo with the chlorine or a reaction between the chlorine and a yeast byproduct. I can't remember where I think I read that so maybe it's wrong. If this is the case then it would also affect extract brews. 

Do you have a linky or care to elaborate?

EDIT: Wow it took me so long to type my post that Adr_0 already sort of covered it.


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## Parks (16/12/13)

verysupple said:


> I hope this isn't getting too far OT but that's an interesting comment. I thought chorophenols were produced either by the yeast doing some biochem mumbo jumbo with the chlorine or a reaction between the chlorine and a yeast byproduct. I can't remember where I think I read that so maybe it's wrong. If this is the case then it would also affect extract brews.
> 
> Do you have a linky or care to elaborate?
> 
> EDIT: Wow it took me so long to type my post that Adr_0 already sort of covered it.


I will see what I can find. Thinking about it now it could be the fact you will boil off the chlorine and chloramine over a 60min boil thus leaving none to ferment. Will check up on that.


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## fletcher (16/12/13)

i don't think it can be done from kits/canned worts. dry extract yes, and i've had a lot of lovely extract beers from fellow brewers and made a few myself, but metallic kits and bits, no. too much of that twang. i've yet to make or drink a decent tin beer. i'd love to be corrected though; perhaps it comes down the brewer and their experiences. in my opinion, all the 'masking and hiding' by steeping, boiling, hop adding etc is only a stone's throw from AG anyway. it's basically admitting that AG is a better product.


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## unclebarrel (16/12/13)

I am an extract brewer, at the moment. AG is something I will do given more time, money and space to stretch out and have a good brew area.

I brew what I claim is decent quality extract brews.
However, just the other day I drank one of my fave pale ales that I have brewed (US style) back to back with a TT landlord done in BIAB on a brew day with mates.
The landlord, all be it a different style to what I had brewed with extract, was definitely of a higher quality.
Don't get me wrong, I really like drinking my brews, but I find AG brews to have better mouthfeel and depth of flavour.

That's my view anyway. 
I'm not as experienced in brewing as many here, but I know when I am drinking something of good quality.
To go back to what Bribie G said, it's kind if like instant coffe.
Good point.

UB


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## Adr_0 (16/12/13)

Parks said:


> I will see what I can find. Thinking about it now it could be the fact you will boil off the chlorine and chloramine over a 60min boil thus leaving none to ferment. Will check up on that.


Without having a decent browse, I think what happens is that the chlorine ions bond to something* in the mash (research this...), which then allows the chlorine to survive the boil. It is an issue for AG brewers because it then means that chlorine essentially survives the boil through latching onto compounds in the mash rather than boiling off as common sense would suggest. This then goes to your fermenter, and the chlorine ions then switch over to yeast products, i.e. phenols, and you get chlorophenols. Damn.

In extract brewing - or once you have produced your wort - you have another opportunity: bleach, or topping up with chlorinated water, then directly introduces chlorine which then bonds to fermentation products, giving you chlorophenols. Damn.

*not yet inclined to find out what compound this is...


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## warra48 (16/12/13)

The fact is that all malts start off as AG, whether we mash them ourselves or they are mashed by others and end up as LDME, Liquid Malt Extract, or Kits.

The point is that by brewing from scratch you are in control of the entire process. That allows you to manipulate things to your own desires.

Does that make better beer? Not necessarily. I've brewed AG batches I wouldn't give to my worst enemy. I've also brewed batches I rate as some of the best beer I ever want to brew or drink.
Test it for yourself by entering some competitions, and see what comments you receive in response..

As an aside, I'm friends with waggastew from this forum. He brews partials, so uses extract and some wort he mashes himself. He does very well in competitions, including an Australian champion beer in one style. Undoubtedly the skill of the brewer must have an impact.


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## warra48 (16/12/13)

Water: A comprehensive guide for brewers.
By John Palmer and Colin Kaminski.

I ordered this book recently from the Book Depository in the UK.
I am no scientist, and some of this went well over my head, but it was an interesting read.
It contains the answers to the Chlorine / Chloramine question.


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## Adr_0 (16/12/13)

warra48 said:


> Water: A comprehensive guide for brewers.
> By John Palmer and Colin Kaminski.
> 
> I ordered this book recently from the Book Depository in the UK.
> ...


After being _blown away_ by the comprehensive chapter on water in Designing Great Beers, I might have to just get this...


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## Parks (16/12/13)

warra48 said:


> The fact is that all malts start off as AG, whether we mash them ourselves or they are mashed by others and end up as LDME, Liquid Malt Extract, or Kits.



Nescafé blend 43 also starts out as coffee :O

I don't personally believe LDME is as bad as the coffee example but probably would be if you used 100% in a batch*

* purely speculative


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## carniebrew (16/12/13)

The Nescafe comparison is a bit unfair....ever tried using no name tomato sauce vs the branded stuff? I have a mate whose first job was making tomato sauce in the factory, and he can tell you the recipe for no name vs the brand stuff is very, very different. As we say in the IT biz, garbage in = garbage out.

If you're gonna go the blend 43 route, then I get to mention that VB, Crown and Carlton Draught are 'all grain' beers, not extract...which goes to show you shouldn't be aiming for "all grain quality", rather than "quality" beer.


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## Bribie G (16/12/13)

Good point CB, All grain brewing can be, and is, prostituted.


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## Bizier (16/12/13)

carniebrew said:


> VB, Crown and Carlton Draught are 'all grain' beers


No they're not


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## Bizier (16/12/13)

Do you think this kind of thread will still be around in 20 years?

Then my yet-unsired offspring can be brewers and chime in on "things that have been around since I was a kid" or whatever thread with responses about extract vs AG arguments as old furniture.


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## Parks (16/12/13)

Sorry, it was a little tongue-in-cheek. 

But I do think an extract only beer would be ordinary whereas an all base malt AG is well documented.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Papa Lazarou (16/12/13)

According to Wikipedia most Australian lagers use some cane sugar due to drinkers preferences.

I have made an all grain beer with 2 coopers kit yeast packets and it was not as good as an extract batch I made with a healthy liquid yeast pitch.
I think fermentation and fresh ingredients are the key to good beers.


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## bmarshall (16/12/13)

warra48 said:


> The fact is that all malts start off as AG, whether we mash them ourselves or they are mashed by others and end up as LDME, Liquid Malt Extract, or Kits.
> 
> The point is that by brewing from scratch you are in control of the entire process. That allows you to manipulate things to your own desires.
> 
> ...


Im close to the 300 mark of different "craft" beers ive been able to try. My kit and extract brews dont even come close to these or even VB in my oppinion. I probably need to do a full volume 60min boil of unhopped extract and chill with a propper chiller. I have read a number of times you dont need to boil lme for long at all, but dme helps to boil for 30-40 min. Im a bit uncertain of the tin cans as i associate the twang taste to being metallic ish, so breiss is my choice.


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## manticle (16/12/13)

verysupple said:


> Sure, you can't do a 5 step mash schedule or a continuous ramp with extract brewing but you can't with an Esky either.


Au contraire my friend. I step mash just about every brew and I use a 26 L esky as a mash tun. No pumps, no springs, pulleys, whistles, milkmaids or horns.

Have done it with with hot water infusions and decoctions but mostly I just apply heat by stirring with an immersion element. I can and have used all three methods in the same mash.

As for the rest:

I am of the opinion that you can make great quality and crap quality beer with any method. IF all things are equal in fermentation, conditioning, sanitation, recipe design etc, THEN I think the more from scratch you get, the better the result but there are so many variables.

I'm an ex-chef and while I prefer making my own sauces, pastry, pasta, bacon, sausages, etc, I can also take more convenient pre-made bases and make something far tastier than someone with the best ingredients who doesn't know how to use them, how to combine them and has no palate. You can overcook the most superb piece of eye fillet and make it worse than a bit of budget rump and obviously someone with no pastry experience is better off buying quality pre-made puff or filo but in the hands of someone who does know - the difference is more than discernible. Selection of ingredients is also important and just like a chef might use a cheese rather than make one, a brewer might use a malted grain or malted extract made by a trusted manufacturer.

Select the best quality ingredients and put them together competently and skilfully using processes and practices that produce the best result. The more you can do well yourself the better the result in my opinion but not everyone can do everything with aplomb and knowing what you can do and what someone else is more skilled at doing is also a skill. A good chef selects ingredients grown/produced/fermented/ground/milled/dried by other people. S/he just knows which ones are best and how best to combine and process them. They don't ferment their own wine, grow their own wheat, mill it and make flour for their pastry, milk the cow and churn the butter or kill the pig. However they also don't use packet sauce, buy bread rolls or dried pasta or tinned soup or a pre-bought jar of pesto.

Find the level you're happy to be involved in based on preferred results and time vs reward.

This argument was around when I was little.


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