# Dusseldorf Alt.



## jayse (16/9/04)

Just after a little input from anyone who's brewed these beers or knows anythings about them.
I only know two so far that brew these, thats the TDs' in TDA and TDH.

Iam going with northern brewer but do you think i should go all out and search the country for some spalt?
It will be 40-45 IBU from one 60min addition. 

For the malt bill iam going with IMC munich malt and from TDA's recipe ideas iam going for 70% instead of the 30% german munich mentioned in D.G.B.
2% carafa type 11 and the rest just pils malt. The mash temp will be a very low 65c. The yeast is 1338 european ale.
This yeast seems to be very popular for the style but not exactly the best yeast for the style because of its low attenuation.
Anyway i just wondering if anyone uses any toasted malts or other character malts in these beers for that added complexity.
What iam wondering is IMC munich malt on its own enough in the ALT for the smoothness and malt complexity? 
Any thoughts brewers?

my OG will be 1.053 and expected FG 1.015 and colour 31 ebc.

Cheers and Alt beers :chug: 
Jayse


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (16/9/04)

jayse, can't see why you would need to add any other specialty malts. 1% carafa would be enough. only thing I would recommend on the grain side of things is use Weyemann Munich Malt, to me it has so much more malty mouthfeel than the IMC Munich. I brewed an Alt that was 50% pils and 50% IMC munich and although it was malty it didn't have that intensity that Weyermann seems to deliver. My other Alts used Weyermann Munich. It's your call.

On hops, I have tried Spalt once and loved them, really spicy, but they are hard to find. I got some from tdh.
Tettnanger is a good hop to use for Alts IMO. I would up the IBU to 50 as well for a more authentic bitterness.
I managed good attenuation with 1338, will have to check my recipes for a figure however.

Good luck man!

C&B
TDA


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## Gulf Brewery (16/9/04)

Jayse

All you had to do was ask a fellow floc for the winning recipe  

O.G around 1.052

1.3% Carafa
42.9% Munich Malt Dark
17.2% Munich Malt Light
34.3% Pilsner
4.3% Wheat Malt

Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet for 37 IBU 60 min.
Hallertauer Plug for 14 IBU 30 min.

I used Wyeast 1007 for this beer

I used carafa in this version because the dark malt last time was picked up as contributing something to the bitterness that wasn't to style. 

Cheers
Pedro


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## Ray_Mills (16/9/04)

Jayse
Your recipe looks good. I would cut down the Carafa 11 a bit as you only need to have a nice light brown or reddish colour in the beer. You will notice my recipe only has a SRM of 14.6 and this is the range you should look for. Use what malts you have and what hops you have. The yeast is good and try to ferment it at around 18C and no more. Lager the beer like you would with any lager.
Best of luck
Ray

Alt # 2 2004

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

08-B Koelsch & Altbier, Dusseldorfer Altbier

Min OG: 1.040 Max OG: 1.055
Min IBU: 40 Max IBU: 60
Min Clr: 11 Max Clr: 19 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 22.00 Wort Size (L): 22.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.96
Anticipated OG: 1.055 Plato: 13.65
Anticipated SRM: 14.6
Anticipated IBU: 51.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
68.8 4.10 kg. JWM Light Munich Australia 1.038 10
30.2 1.80 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 2
1.0 0.06 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special I Germany 1.036 482

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
38.00 g. Northern Brewer Pellet 9.80 47.4 70 min.
15.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.00 3.7 15 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 Unit(s)Whirflock  Fining 15 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP008 East Coast/Alt Ale


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain kg: 5.96
Water Qts: 15.75 - Before Additional Infusions
Water L: 14.90 - Before Additional Infusions

L Water Per kg Grain: 2.50 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 68 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0
Sparge Temp : 77 Time: 45


Total Mash Volume L: 18.88 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.


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## Jovial_Monk (16/9/04)

hehehehehehe have the Altbier book at the Monkee. . .

JM


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## jayse (16/9/04)

Thanx a lot guys, I think i'll stick around my first thoughts then, iam still going over going out and getting some german munich malt to make it the best i can but still also thinking using the IMC anyway, i'll work that bit out over a pint or two right now.
I'll cut back the carafa to 1% and go for 50ibu of northern brewer.

Still one question remains to all you guys and that is what is the mash temp you would ussually use, Ray has 68c there which i thought was to high when i was putting my recipe together, but if you other guys aim for here i think i'll go for a bit higher than my idea of 65c, i picked 65c as this is inline what ray writes in DGB.

Anyway good to get your thoughts guys.
here's to me trying to out brew pedro there. :chug: :chug:
Hopefully we may have stirred up some other brewers also into adding a alt to the brew list.
With the IMC malt iam sure this is what TDH is using in the auld fokker, so this is why iam still thinking of going that way. Also TDA on your brew you did 50% you wrote in the comments 'next time i'll go 70%" so this is pretty much what i'll do i think.
Smack pack is all swelled ready for a starter and then brew day soon. Would be good doing a side by side with 1007 but that will have to wait till down the track a bit.
I'll let you know how it comes up. 

Cheers Jayse


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## Gulf Brewery (16/9/04)

Jayse

I mashed on the low side around 66/67 as an Alt is supposed to be a dry finishing beer.

Cheers
Peter


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## jayse (16/9/04)

Pedro said:


> Jayse
> 
> I mashed on the low side around 66/67 as an Alt is supposed to be a dry finishing beer.
> 
> ...


 This is why i was going for a very low mash temp as although its a smooth complex malty beer it is still very dry and has very good attenuation.
As like ray writes 'the malt flavour has nothing to do with the dextrin content'.
I'll go 66c then i think.

No comment on the 'outbrew pedro' comment of mine pedro?

Jayse


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## Gulf Brewery (17/9/04)

jayse said:


> No comment on the 'outbrew pedro' comment of mine pedro?
> 
> Jayse


 Just keep trying and one day you may make the grade 
But for now, I am not challenged by your brewing skills  

Pedro


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## Snow (17/9/04)

Jayse, for a bit more research and history, there is a good article on the BYO website called "Old-World Alt". It's an interesting read.

Good luck with the brew - it's been on my "to brew" list for quite sometime - i just keep getting way-layed by hoppy American styles  

- Snow


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## jayse (17/9/04)

Pedro said:


> jayse said:
> 
> 
> > No comment on the 'outbrew pedro' comment of mine pedro?
> ...


 Or should that read your not ready to 'publically' admit to being challanged by my brewing.   


Thanx for the heads up on the online article snow i don't think i have read that before.

Iam going with some weyerman munich II now in a similar recipe to pedro's there.
I hardly ever use tettnanger though and aren't gunna buy a 100g lot at top dollar for it though. Anyone with 100g or so to swap for somthing else i have would be good.
I'll swap you for half a kilo of POR :blink: :blink: :blink: maybe not that but if anyone wants to swap some cascade i have a pallet full of that.  

Anyway iam still happy with my idea of using northern brewer.

Snow its been 10 brews at least since i have done a APA as i have been putting down a lot of different styles lately like munich dunkel, rauchbier, oktoberfest, munich helles and weeheavy. These brews were all the first go at these styles.
The next APA will be a mighty big 80litre batch which should keep me in APA for at least a week or two.  :chug: :chug: 


Cheers Jayse


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## Snow (17/9/04)

That's what I like about you, Jayse, is that you're prepared to have a go at anything, and put in a good bit of research to give it your best shot. That's pretty much my brewing style - so much so that I haven't brewed the same beer twice in over 2 years, let alone have a standard "house brew" like a lot of people seem to have.

- Snow


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## jayse (17/9/04)

Thanx snow, i do still have a little way to go to with my pale european lagers as they are not quite how i would like them, although i do think they stack up with some others i have tried they are still not unreal, just average. Iam not really a fan of these styles anyway but i know once i get the flavours iam after out of them iam sure i'll soon convert a bit more.
I have been using herbrucker in them lately and to be honest i don't really like that hop much as it reminds me of premo aussie swill which tastes to me a bit like a mega swill thats been out in the sun for too long. 
I guess the word iam after is a bit to sharp and almost harsh for my tastes.

Iam enjoying making different styles and thought oneday i may grow out of the cascade phase but that hasn't happened yet, i still love APA.

Fav brews so far this year have been scottish, american brown and robust porter and the insane demon ale.
All of which didn't do aswell a hoped in the comp but they were poured straight into the bottles from the keg and sat on a shop floor for two weeks than transported all over town, anyway thats my excuse why they didn't do aswell as hoped. Maybe if i had of done it properly i would have got another 5 points for each beer which would have seen me do very well indeed.
Anyway thats the plan for the next few months is make to style and be sure i bottle condition some properly so i can prove myself in some comps.

Cheers Jayse
PS better go make my ALT starter the smack packs about to explode.


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## JasonY (2/6/05)

Planning on having a first attempt at an ALT this w/end and this thread has been very useful. Looks like my grain bill will be quite similar to those above ~70/30 munich/pils with some carafaII to get the color right. Decided on the 1338 yeast as well, the 1007 sounded like it would be as coudy as hell. Anyone ran this yeast at 16deg, the specs say it can do it so I think I will push for it as long as it all doesnt go to sleep 

Hope all these brews turned out well, looking forward to brewing one.


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## Gough (2/6/05)

G'day JasonY,

I'm brewing my first alt on Saturday. I'm planning on using the 1007 yeast - I've used it in Kolsch styles before and it has cleared OK after lagering. It works fine at 16. I don't have access to Carafa II so I'm using 1% choc malt. Using Spalt for my hop bill, 42 IBU, 1052 OG. Hope both ours work out well  

Shawn


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (2/6/05)

JasonY said:


> Planning on having a first attempt at an ALT this w/end and this thread has been very useful. Looks like my grain bill will be quite similar to those above ~70/30 munich/pils with some carafaII to get the color right. Decided on the 1338 yeast as well, the 1007 sounded like it would be as coudy as hell. Anyone ran this yeast at 16deg, the specs say it can do it so I think I will push for it as long as it all doesnt go to sleep
> 
> Hope all these brews turned out well, looking forward to brewing one.
> [post="61957"][/post]​



I've always fermented 1338 at 18 to 20C without any problems.

Good luck, ALT is a great style IMO.

C&B
TDA


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## Doc (2/6/05)

I'm brewing my first Alt in the next week too.

Here is the recipes I'm going to be using.

Beers,
Doc

*Doc's Altbier*

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

08-C Koelsch & Altbier, Northern German Altbier

Min OG: 1.040 Max OG: 1.055
Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 40
Min Clr: 22 Max Clr: 37 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 40.00 Wort Size (L): 40.00
Total Grain (kg): 8.63
Anticipated OG: 1.055 Plato: 13.54
Anticipated EBC: 21.4
Anticipated IBU: 30.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 10.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 47.06 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.047 SG 11.59 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
78.8 6.80 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 7
13.9 1.20 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.040 4
6.5 0.56 kg. JWM Caramalt Australia 1.036 56
0.8 0.07 kg. TF Black Malt UK 1.033 1270

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
52.00 g. Hallertauer Aroma Pellet 7.00 26.2 45 min.
34.00 g. Hallertauer Aroma Pellet 5.20 3.8 15 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.51 Tsp Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP036 Dusseldorf Alt


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain kg: 8.63
Water Qts: 29.59 - Before Additional Infusions
Water L: 28.00 - Before Additional Infusions

L Water Per kg Grain: 3.24 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 66 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 72 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 80 Time: 60


Total Mash Volume L: 33.76 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.


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## ausdb (2/6/05)

Jason I'm planning on doing an alt as well with a similar grain bill but using spalt hops pitched onto some 1007 slurry left from the koslchy style lagerale I made recently, we shoud try and compare compare them! 

I thought the 1007 cleared reasonable well for what was a rushed lagering period (1 week)

Cheers Ausdb


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## Ross (2/6/05)

Just kegged my first Alt yesterday; thanks to Batz for his inspiration with the recipe:

4.52 kg IMC Munich (6.0 SRM) Grain 74.3 % 
0.57 kg JWM Wheat Malt (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.3 % 
0.34 kg JWM Dark Crystal (112.0 SRM) Grain 5.6 % 
0.34 kg JWM Traditional Ale Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 5.6 % 
0.23 kg JWM Caramalt (28.0 SRM) Grain 3.7 % 
0.09 kg TF Chocolate Malt (477.0 SRM) Grain 1.5 % 
45.00 gm Northern Brewer [9.90%] (80 min) Hops 46.2 IBU 
30.00 gm Hallertauer [3.00%] (30 min) Hops 6.8 IBU 
20.00 gm Hallertauer [3.00%] (10 min) Hops 2.1 IBU 
5.00 gm Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale 
Total IBU 55.

Tasting magnificent already & I'm sure will improve with a little bit of age...


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## Gough (2/6/05)

Ross said:


> Just kegged my first Alt yesterday; thanks to Batz for his inspiration with the recipe:
> 
> 4.52 kg IMC Munich (6.0 SRM) Grain 74.3 %
> 0.57 kg JWM Wheat Malt (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.3 %
> ...



Bloody hell that is a serious malt bill! Go Ross! Mine is a bit simpler. Mix of Light and Dark Munich and 1% choc. Hope it does the job.

Shawn.


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## JasonY (2/6/05)

Gough said:


> I'm planning on using the 1007 yeast - I've used it in Kolsch styles before and it has cleared OK after lagering.



Sounds like AusDB agrees also. Will have to consider giving it a shot next time I am after a yeast for this kind of style.



THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> I've always fermented 1338 at 18 to 20C without any problems.



I shall try and stay at of below 18 then, may try for 16 and see what happens. Can only end in disaster. 

Doc, I thought of using xtal in the recipe but was a bit worried about it impacting on the dryish finish this style is supposed to have? Looks like Ross has also a fair bit of xtal in there as well. Interested to hear how they finish.

I will be going for about 40IBU using Perle @ 60mins.


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## Ross (2/6/05)

[/quote]

Bloody hell that is a serious malt bill! Go Ross! Mine is a bit simpler. Mix of Light and Dark Munich and 1% choc. Hope it does the job.

Shawn.
[post="61973"][/post]​[/quote]

Shawn - My oatmeal stout has 11 grains & adjuncts, don't know when to stop sometimes ;-)...


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## Gough (2/6/05)

Ross said:


> Shawn - My oatmeal stout has 11 grains & adjuncts, don't know when to stop sometimes ;-)...
> [post="61977"][/post]​




:beerbang: 

Maybe we should setup a challenge to brew with the most malts/adjuncts in a (drinkable) brew. You've set the benchmark at 11, do we have any advances on 11...

Shawn.


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## Kai (2/6/05)

I've got what will hopefully be a vaguely alt-like beer in primary at the moment, has just finished fermenting. I wish I'd found this thread before brewing, but I don't think I would have changed too much. Well, maybe just a little.


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## wee stu (10/6/05)

I just hope some of you mad keen alt makers will keep some aside and enter them into the Alt class at this years ANAWBS. 

That would make a killer comp to judge :beer: , or in my case, at least Steward


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## big d (10/6/05)

if i qualify i will enter one for you stu.

cheers
big d


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## wee stu (10/6/05)

big d said:


> if i qualify i will enter one for you stu.
> 
> cheers
> big d
> [post="63088"][/post]​


If you qualify? - ANAWBS is a national comp, open to all. Get it in big d


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## jayse (11/6/05)

hello brewingtonsfieldvillingtons,
a couple of recipes here with what i think is too much crystal malt, i don't think you need any at all. Iam with jasony original post bringing up the thread again with a mass of munich malt and a tad of pils and some roasted malt to get it into the colour range.
I did a 50 litre batch and spilt it between 1338 and 1007 and 1338 i picked as the better beer.
Mash temp i always keep down as low as possible and as such don't find much difference in the attenuation of either yeast. I do the ferment at 16-18 and as some people have claimed 1007 isn't very flocculant, i haven't had any probs getting it clear after keeping it cold for a couple weeks.
I think the different attenuation with the two yeast would come into play more when you mash a bit higher, something you don't want to do with a alt loaded with munich malt anyway

Anyway good luck alt brewers.
Sympathy for the devil
Jayse


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## JasonY (12/6/05)

JasonY said:


> THE DRUNK ARAB said:
> 
> 
> > I've always fermented 1338 at 18 to 20C without any problems.
> ...



Well looks like I have been caught out, I decided to test the gravity today (6 days since pitching) and it is only at 1.030 (OG 1.054). It has been pretty cold at night here which has pushed the temp in the freezer to 12deg over night  Have the heater belt on it now and a gentle rock to try and get the yeast moving. Tastes bloody nice however.


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