# Help. Sodium Metasilicate in beer



## Droopy Brew (27/2/17)

SO I fucker up. I was reading up on sodium metalbisulfate to knock chloramines out of the water. So I added 1/4 tsp to my 70l of strike and sparge water. Problem is that is dawned on me this morning that what I thought was metabisulphate is probably metasilicate.

So what effect will this amount of metasilicate effect my yeast or beer? Will it be safe to drink at these levels?

Fingers Xd.


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## peteru (27/2/17)

Will it leave your insides clean or will you bleed? Good question. Sometimes it's best to cut your loses early.


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## Mardoo (27/2/17)

Yep, guts are guts, beer is beer, one is much easier to make more of.

And may I offer a word in support of clear labelling.  As well, it's a good idea to keep the MSDS on hand for the chemicals you use. They're easy to find with a google search.


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## Droopy Brew (27/2/17)

Yes labeling is definitely in need of attention.

I'm not prepared to dump 40 L of good beer unnecessarily. We are talking approx 1ppm of a base compound.

If it is a dangerous level then I will bite the bullet and tip it but I will wait for someone with the chemical expertise to comment before making that decision.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the reply and understand the precautionary principle you are working on but seeking some facts from those in the know.

The peroxide debate in the O2 thread indicates that a proportionately larger amount of a very oxidative substance is fine for consumption, if not necessarily agreed on as a best practice.


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## GalBrew (27/2/17)

It's not 'good beer' if it's got hazardous chemicals in it though is it? I would tip
It personally, why risk it over a double batch of homebrew?


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## mofox1 (27/2/17)

Difference here is that peroxide (assuming hydrogen peroxide) will decompose to water and oxygen... I do not know what effect the small amount of sodium metasilicate will have in the beer.


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## Droopy Brew (27/2/17)

Is it a hazardous chemical in that dosage? 
Phosphoric acid is a hazardous chemical but many a good beer has been made with it present in solution (sanitiser). 

My subsequent reading has found that sodium silicate is in fact used in the beer and wine industry as a flocculant (fining agent). While I haven't found a dosage rate as yet I strongly suspect it is higher than what is in this beer.

Again, Im looking for some answers based on facts rather than assumptions something might be bad from those that simply dont know. Sorry if that seems harsh.


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## GalBrew (27/2/17)

I also had a look and I'm not sure that data you need exists. Try getting ethics approval to work out the concentration of sodium metasilicate in beer required to corrode your GI tract. Anyway it's your call.....


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## Droopy Brew (27/2/17)

If coca cola can get ethics approval Im sure I can


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## manticle (27/2/17)

You have the same buying power as Coca cola- amatil?


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## Zorco (27/2/17)

In terms of the chemistry minds I've watched here we have,

Lyrebird_Cycles
MHB
Klangers

They will help you if they value the question enough.

But as for deduction... I start here

http://docs.redox.com/sds/3555.Pdf

It is identified as toxic
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Sodium_metasilicate#section=Top

Can be used as a paint stripper


https://mistralni.co.uk/products/sodium-metasilicate-pentahydrate

At that concentration...?

Evidence of mutation (silicate) in offspring at low concentrations

http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/15981734

Metasilicate as food grade

*extract from the above

However, because these ingredients have limited dermal absorption and Sodium Metasilicate is a GRAS direct food substance, the Panel deemed the ingredients safe for use in cosmetic products in the practices of use and concentration described in this safety assessment, when formulated to avoid irritation



Good question though.

Hope this response helps your enquiries.


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## peteru (27/2/17)

Based on your first post, I was under the impression that you were at the stage where it was just the treated water that was affected. Dumping it would have just delayed your brewing without wasting any ingredients.

If you already have a fermenting beer, you might as well let it finish. That should give you some time to do the research and if you are satisfied that consuming it at that dilution rate is something you are prepared to do, give it a taste test. It may be that your taste buds will tell you straight away that it should go down the drain. Or not.

BTW: I also suspect that silicate and metasilicate are sufficiently different that you can not draw any conclusions about the usage of one, based on the other.


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## Zorco (27/2/17)

Read the paper, it covers a range of chemicals 

My instinct is that it might be safe and worth researching.


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## Droopy Brew (27/2/17)

Thanks Zorco. I will give the others a read when time permits but noticed the last link mentions sodium metasilicate is a GRAS (generally regarded as safe) for food production. 

Pete, the taste test from yesterday's gravity reading passed with flying colours. This morning's stool sample seemed to be solid and well formed too so I think gastrologically I'm good to go. But will certainly do some more reading.

The main concern now is for yeast health and activity. I guess I should know in the next 12 hours (it has been about 18 ) if the micros are happy.


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## RobW (27/2/17)

This is from the material data safety sheet:

Potential Acute Health Effects: Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive), of eye contact (corrosive). The amount of tissue damage depends on length of contact. Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness. Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering. Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing. Severe overexposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death. Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching. Skin inflammation is characterized by itching, scaling, reddening, or, occasionally, blistering.

Potential Chronic Health Effects: p. 2 CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available. The substance may be toxic to mucous membranes, skin, eyes. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage. Repeated exposure of the eyes to a low level of dust can produce eye irritation. Repeated skin exposure can produce local skin destruction, or dermatitis. Repeated inhalation of dust can produce varying degree of respiratory irritation or lung damage.


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## drsmurto (27/2/17)

Droopy Brew said:


> SO I fucker up. I was reading up on sodium metalbisulfate to knock chloramines out of the water. So I added 1/4 tsp to my 70l of strike and sparge water. Problem is that is dawned on me this morning that what I thought was metabisulphate is probably metasilicate.
> 
> So what effect will this amount of metasilicate effect my yeast or beer? Will it be safe to drink at these levels?
> 
> Fingers Xd.


Do you actually know what it is that you added? Are you storing chemicals in unlabelled containers? That's a particularly lax approach to safety, I hope you don't have any kids who can access your brewing area.

A teaspoon is a volume measurement so I don't know how much in grams you have added but assuming a few grams in 70L you probably won't do any harm to yourself. It's not a particularly hazardous substance when in a dilute solution. Concentrated solutions (alkaline, or acidic if you are Pete Evans) or the powder itself can be corrosive.


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## Zorco (27/2/17)

The underlying detail of significance is really this above. I noticed a LOT of people use contractions for the names of their chemicals, MET, PERC..... The former being a lousy instance of this lingual desire of ours.

Probably not fair of Smurto to assert that you're using unlabelled containers, I've found the MET thing to be more widely adopted and the cause of confusion. Ink is cheap, big text, all the letters, drawing skulls and crossbones is fun so add them too.


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## niftinev (27/2/17)

turf it, not worth the risk, life is short


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## Droopy Brew (27/2/17)

niftinev said:


> turf it, not worth the risk, life is short


Based on what evidence? I should discount the scientific papers Zorco presented because life is short? Nah think I'll side with the science.



Zorco said:


> The underlying detail of significance is really this above. I noticed a LOT of people use contractions for the names of their chemicals, MET, PERC..... The former being a lousy instance of this lingual desire of ours.
> 
> Probably not a fair of Smurto to assert that you're using unlabelled containers, I've found the MET thing to be more widely adopted and the cause of confusion. Ink is cheap, big text, all the letters, drawing skulls and crossbones is fun so add them too.


Unfortunately he is right. It wasn't labelled, it was something I used to wash the gear with and the only powder on the shelf hence the lack of labeling. Bit me in the arse didn't it? Lesson learnt.

All that stuff is kept out of reach of the kids, little buggers wouldn't read the label anyway, hence the vertical barrier.


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## MHB (27/2/17)

Ok lets say it isn't a recommended ingredient but 1/4 tsp in 70L isn't any whare near the sort of amount to be a worry.
Sodium Metasilicate combines with CO2 fairly rapidly and forms an insoluble glass like matrix, the LD-50 is over 1g/kg of body weight.
I would taste the beer and go from there.
Mark

PS good to label and use chemicals properly!
M


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## Droopy Brew (27/2/17)

Thanks Mark, confirmed my thoughts and eased my fears.

Yeast is happily chewing sugars now with pressure gauge on the kegmenter going from 0 to 4 PSI in the past 2 hours so no apparent yeast issues either.


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## niftinev (27/2/17)

Droopy Brew said:


> Based on what evidence? I should discount the scientific papers Zorco presented because life is short? Nah think I'll side with the science.


and ignore the msds

see post #15


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## mtb (27/2/17)

niftinev said:


> and ignore the msds
> 
> see post #15


I think you need to take that paper with a grain of brewing salt*. OP may well have used it in dilution which would completely change its characteristics.

*I couldn't help myself


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## Mardoo (27/2/17)

Dunno about that. Sodium Metasilicate in the lungs and eyes is pretty effin' bitey.


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## Droopy Brew (27/2/17)

Niftinev, check out the MSDS on chlorine and flouride.

Best you not drink from any town water supplies.


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## Mardoo (27/2/17)

As you've been arguing, there's a big difference between direct contact and dilute contact. MSDS's deal with direct contact, not dilute.


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## Droopy Brew (27/2/17)

Yep. Precisely my point. :beer:


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## MHB (27/2/17)

Concentration is important, for instance Calcium Chloride has a very similar LD 50 of about 1g/kg Common salt about 3g/kg and Magnesium Sulphate is much more dangerous at around 0.2g/kg.
I'm not recommending you put it in your beer, but the amount we are talking about isn't going to be an issue. Cant say what it will do for the flavour, but I don't think there are any real health concerns.
Mark

If you aren't familiar with LD 50, its basically that amount required to have a 50/50 chance of killing you. So if you weighed 80kg, and we were talking about MgSO4
0.2*80=16g has a coin toss chance of punching your clock.
M


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## Yob (27/2/17)

so I once put a few spoons of PBW in my mash...

not drawing the line at all except for I labelled my containers after that episode..

and yes, I dumped the mash...


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (27/2/17)

To back up what MHB has said, I don't see anything to worry about.

Metasilicate by itself can have deleterious effects because it's quite reactive: it's used in washing poswders for instance because it will react with fats and modify them to soap.*

In your case I believe that it will have combined with the calcium ions present in the mash. Calcium metasilicate is pretty close to insoluble so it will then have fallen out of solution with the phosphates.


* Weird use for silicates: a fresh egg immersed in a silicate solution will keep for months at room temperature.


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## MHB (28/2/17)

Water glass, that's what its called for egg dipping.
We used to mix it with sand to make foundry moulds, mix like dry sandy mortar, than blow CO2 over it and in 5 minutes its a fair imitation of sandstone, just like in egg preserving, seals the egg, reacts with CO2 forms a "glass" keeping out air and bacteria.
M


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## niftinev (28/2/17)

Droopy Brew said:


> Niftinev, check out the MSDS on chlorine and flouride.
> 
> Best you not drink from any town water supplies.


its your call what you do

i would dump based on the fact that there is no information on possible long term heath effects


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## Zorco (28/2/17)

Lots of people would. And that is ok.

But ignorance prompts two responses: fear, curiosity.

The latter is on show today....

And thank goodness for that.


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## MHB (28/2/17)

I would be a lot more concerned about exposure to Ethanol, a widely used steriliser and neurotoxin with plenty of well identified both short and long term harmful effects.
Including, apparently a tendency to crap on about things you clearly don't understand.
Mark


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## Zorco (28/2/17)

Huh... are you still cranky with me Mark?


[emoji317]


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## manticle (28/2/17)

I believe it was directed elsewhere zorco


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## MHB (28/2/17)

Zorco - Yep you posted while I was typing, getting coffee, letting the dog out and the cat back in.... I'm sure they both think my main job is opening doors.
Mark


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## good4whatAlesU (28/2/17)

I'd go with the chemists recommendations. Pretty low concentrations. 

Google search says the isotope labelled product has been fed to dogs (poor bloody dogs) to see where it goes: http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/pim500.htm But you'd have to track down the original paper to read methods (Clayton and Clayton 1993), almost certainly it was well above the concentrations you're talking about. 

Excerpt:

6.1 Absorption by route of exposure

Radio-labelled 31Si sodium metasilicate, partially
neutralized, was given orally to dogs. It was rapidly
absorbed and excreted in the urine but a significant amount
was retained in the tissues (Clayton & Clayton, 1993).

6.2 Distribution by route of exposure

Radio-labeled 31Si sodium metasilicate, partially
neutralized, was given orally to dogs. It was rapidly
absorbed. A significant amount was retained in the tissues.
These findings are consistent with the recognition that
silicon is an essential trace element for bone formation in
animals (Clayton & Clayton, 1993).

6.3 Biological half-life by route of exposure

No data available

6.4 Metabolism

No data available

6.5 Elimination by route of exposure

Radio-labelled 31Si sodium metasilicate, partially
neutralized, was given orally to dogs. It was rapidly
excreted in the urine (Clayton & Clayton, 1993).


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## Zorco (28/2/17)

True,

But then there is that line..


"Did you do something because someone on the internet said it was OK???...... you absolute dickhead"


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## mtb (28/2/17)

There's "someone on the internet" and then there's you intelligent fuckers, I think I'd feel safe following this advice


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## Droopy Brew (28/2/17)

Depends how well established the "internet person's" credentials are I guess. Having read a lot of what LB, MHB and Smurto have written over the past few years, I will gladly put my faith in their wisdom regarding brewing and chemicals.

Peer reviewed and referenced literature such as presented above is also a fairly safe bet.

Good discussion to have and I'm thankful for those that chimed in. Perhaps no one in the future will be dumb enough to do what I've done (unlikely), but if they do then the info is all here with a search. At the very least it may have fellow brewers running out to the shed with a nikko to mark their containers.


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## drsmurto (28/2/17)

Questioning, scepticism is a good thing. As long as you follow that through and spend time doing some decent research and reaching a conclusion. EDIT - this is the basic premise of good science, we question the results, we treat the data with some scepticism buy ultimately reach a conclusion. We are wrong far more often than we are right, all of my research last week in the lab blew my hypothesis out of the water and I've had to step back and think more about it. I've come up with a new hypothesis and am now testing that. 

Questioning something because you don't like someone, have some inherent and baseless lack of trust in someone is not the way to go about it. Hopefully with time you get a feel for who on this forum has knowledge in which area, no one person knows it all although there have been many cases of people who thought they did. 

Whilst the internet has an amazing amount of information, you still need to have the basic ability to distinguish fact from fiction. One of the keys to this is understanding your confirmation bias, something we all have but few too many understand this and can factor it in to their thinking. Then there is cognitive dissonance which is a closed mind. 

EDIT - and if Droopy Brew's experience teaches other to label chemical containers, then it's been a very worthwhile discussion to have.


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## Rocker1986 (28/2/17)

I've been following this thread and my initial suspicion was that the concentration was so low that from a health perspective it's pretty much like it's not even there, which has been confirmed by the better brains than I when it comes to these sorts of things. Dad was an industrial chemist back in the day as well so I suppose I have picked up on some of that knowledge over the years. It's more interesting to me now that I've gone far down the rabbit hole of brewing and we often have discussions about chemistry.

Anyway, I think this thread is excellent and I've learned a couple of new things from reading through it too. B)


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## Zorco (28/2/17)

mtb said:


> There's "someone on the internet" and then there's you intelligent fuckers, I think I'd feel safe following this advice


That's me too.

It was worth pointing out though. 

I'm grateful for the integrity this forum has and also thank the moderators for their time helping to keep out stupidity.


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## niftinev (28/2/17)

Zorco said:


> Huh... are you still cranky with me Mark?
> 
> 
> [emoji317]


probably for me, NFI


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## Zorco (28/2/17)

I might not be centre of the fairway here Nev, but the 'just dump it' view might be clear as crystal when there are matters of higher priority occurring, such as poor health of someone or a recent serious event.

Dumping $10 of wort is absolutely trivial.... so why risk it.

When it comes to things within the context of people's lives, nearly everyone who is judgemental doesn't know what they're talking about.

For me I like how this thread has tested the concept of what is safe. And in that way the discussion of safe levels of chemicals in general. A whole area of food science


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## good4whatAlesU (28/2/17)

And scientists live a lot longer nowadays.

Back in the 1800's it was a 'boom' time for chemistry... Huge discoveries that changed our world. But no WHS a lot of those guys died very young playing around with stuff and just figuring out the basics we take for granted now.

Anyway interesting thread..
chemistry is fun. Learning is good.


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## Droopy Brew (28/2/17)

Zorco said:


> Dumping $10 of wort is absolutely trivial.... so why risk it.


Add another 0 mate - 12kg grain and 300g of hops, pack of yeast and a big starter.






Oh yeah and about 0.1g of sodium metasilicate :icon_drool2:


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## niftinev (28/2/17)

i might not know whether it will have any affect or not. I would like hope not.

But i do not subscribe to the fact that just because you haven't reached LD it probably won't have any affect on you (edit without evidence to back it up) and further more just because you dilute something it makes it safer.

Don't listen to me as i know 3/5 of **** all



Droopy Brew said:


> Add another 0 mate - 12kg grain and 300g of hops, pack of yeast and a big starter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sorry Droopy Brew, this is just the way i think of things


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## manticle (28/2/17)

Dilution is very important. It's how homeopathy is merely ineffectual rather than deadly


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## wide eyed and legless (28/2/17)

Zorco said:


> For me I like how this thread has tested the concept of what is safe. And in that way the discussion of safe levels of chemicals in general. A whole area of food science


Something none of us like to dwell on, how safe is the alcohol we are producing, once we consume it?


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## manticle (28/2/17)

Really, really safe.

At least the stuff I make is


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## wide eyed and legless (28/2/17)

Thats what I like to think


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## MHB (28/2/17)

There are lots of chemicals which if inadvertently added to a brew, I would be saying "bump it" because I would regard it as hazardous.
If you know a bit of chemistry, know what the chemicals involved are and how they work, do a bit of basic research on the chemicals in question, it is possible to reach a reasoned decision, not just one based on reflex.

Concentration is very important, like Panadol, a little can be very beneficial too much will kill you in a very unpleasant way. Magnesium Sulphate, 5 time more toxic than Sodium Metasilicate and yet we use both.
In this case say a couple of grams in 70L of water, the amount that will survive through the mashing and boiling process is going to be very small if there is any at all. There is also a built in cross check, if the yeast will ferment the wort properly, it is a fair indication that there isn't enough in solution to cause problems.

To actually get enough into your system from the above scenario, well if you were an average 75kg man and drank the entire batch in one sitting, you wouldn't get enough to be an issue, the amount of alcohol would make you very sick and you would have way exceeded the fatal dose of water.
Mark


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## GalBrew (28/2/17)

The only thing I would add is that there is a wide spectrum between 'safe' dose and LD50 of any compound. All sorts of stuff can happen along the way (or not).


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## peteru (28/2/17)

Moving past the "It'll kill you. No, it won't. It'll make you sick. No it won't." stage...

Paraphrasing what LC mentioned, sodium metasilicate reacting with fats will produce soap. Once you get to the tasting stage, keep a lookout for any soapy off flavours.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (28/2/17)

MHB said:


> I would be a lot more concerned about exposure to Ethanol, a widely used steriliser and neurotoxin with plenty of well identified both short and long term harmful effects.
> Including, apparently a tendency to crap on about things you clearly don't understand.
> Mark


Can we nominate this for post of the year?


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## Zorco (28/2/17)

You drunk again LC?


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## niftinev (1/3/17)

peteru said:


> Paraphrasing what LC mentioned, sodium metasilicate reacting with fats will produce soap.


Are you sure about this?

It is used for other reasons but does not help saponify fats and oils for soap

you need sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide to make soap

don't believe everything you read

and yes i am a soap maker

lyrebird_cycles might want to join a soap forum and sprout off there

edit make to maker


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (1/3/17)

Quote from performance chemical (supplier of metasilicate):



> The high alkalinity of METSO (sodium metasilicate)* provides cleaning through saponification of fatty soil and emulsification of oily and greasy soil.
> 
> * added for clarity




reference: http://www.pqcorp.com/pc/EMEA/Products/Sodium-Metasilicates


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## Zorco (1/3/17)

PIN number 0034


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## MHB (1/3/17)

niftinev said:


> Are you sure about this?
> It is used for other reasons but does not help saponify fats and oils for soap
> you need sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide to make soap
> don't believe everything you read
> ...


Nifty, When talking about chemistry terms like Saponify and make soap, aren't really the same. True soap making is a subset of saponification, like a camp fire is a subset of Oxidisation process, but so are rusting, launching rockets and some flavour changes in beer.
Chemically it is quite accurate to describe rusting as burning very slowly, likewise Metasilicate will saponify lipids.
Mark


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## niftinev (1/3/17)

it is used as a builder in soap to soften hard water and stabilise ph, but will not make soap

it does though help the soaps cleaning ability

When soap is used in "hard" water, it will be precipitated as a "bath-tub ring" by calcium or magnesium ions present in the "hard" water. The effects of "hard" water calcium or magnesium ions decrease with the addition of "builders". The most common "builder" is sodium trimetaphosphate. The phosphates react with the calcium or magnesium ions thus keeping them in solution but away from the soap molecule. The soap molecule can then do its job without interference from calcium or magnesium ions. Other "builders" include sodium carbonate, borax, and sodium silicate, which are currently in detergents.

copied above paragraph from wiki

see link below for further information
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Structural_Biochemistry/Lipids/Soap


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## niftinev (1/3/17)

MHB

you may be right in what you say but



Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> it's used in washing poswders for instance because it will react with fats and modify them to soap.*
> 
> .


Just clarifying this statement. This it does not do

edit; further infrmation http://chemistry.elmhurst.edu/vchembook/554soap.html


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## mtb (1/3/17)

Qualifications vs Wikibooks. WHO WILL WIN!


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (1/3/17)

If you read the PDF linked in the reference I gave in post # 60, it says in part:



> The alkalinity provided by Metso Sodium Metasilicate ... saponifies fatty soil which makes them readily dissolvable. The saponified fatty soil acts as a soap


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## niftinev (1/3/17)

Lyrebird

i did read the link you posted.

Doesn't mean i have to believe everything a manufacturer says about their products


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## bradsbrew (1/3/17)

niftinev said:


> Lyrebird
> 
> i did read the link you posted.
> 
> Doesn't mean i have to believe everything a manufacturer says about their products


I agree. Stupid technical data sheets and material safety data sheets, WTF would the manufacturer know about their products. Might just go see all my trainers and tell them to throw out all the TDS and MSDS folders. May as well throw out all the JSA's as well.


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## good4whatAlesU (1/3/17)

mmmm yes and no. 

Not all the tests under all the conditions have been conducted for all materials. That's why things are updated as new information comes to hand. 

Let's just say companies like Monsanto have and do refer to their own data. . .. but when you ask them for same data when you are doing a literature review, they say "sorry but that data is not publicly available".


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## manticle (1/3/17)

bradsbrew said:


> I agree. Stupid technical data sheets and material safety data sheets, WTF would the manufacturer know about their products. Might just go see all my trainers and tell them to throw out all the TDS and MSDS folders. May as well throw out all the JSA's as well.


SWMS


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## niftinev (1/3/17)

yes you have to believe everything a manufacturer or producer says or claims about their about their products both now, and in the future they will always care for you first

edit; and no one has ever had their butt kicked for telling porky pies


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## niftinev (1/3/17)

mtb said:


> Qualifications vs Wikibooks. WHO WILL WIN!



my qualifications are indisputable

phd in biophysics from the company offering passports, birth certificates, uni degrees etc. on the forum this morning


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## niftinev (1/3/17)

shit where's the Topic gone so i can get what i want

c'mon guys i need the degree and a new passport


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (1/3/17)

OK, let's take a solution of sodium metasilicate and add it to an ordinary fat, (glycerol triacylate). The acyl groups can be anything you want but let's make them stearate.

Since this is a chemistry lesson we'll take a low concentration of metasilicate solution, say 1%, which will have a pH of about 12.6. This is equivalent to hydroxyl ion concentration of ~40 mM. The concentration of sodium ions will also be around 40 mM (assuming 50% dissociation).

Let's just consider one of the ester bridges for now, since they are all similar they'll all react the same way.

At a pH of 12.6 the hydroxyl ions will attack the carbonyl group of the ester, producing an orthoester, which is unstable so it will spontaneously break down to an alkoxide and the carboxylic acid (stearic acid).

The stearic acid will donate a proton to the alkoxide, giving a stearate ion and an alcohol (when this happens to all three ester bridges the remnant alcohol is glycerol but we aren't much interested in byproducts at this stage).

Sodium ion + stearate ion = sodium stearate.

Sodium stearate is a soap.


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## niftinev (1/3/17)

lyrebird

I understand most of what you say post 74

my opologies for questioning you


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## Rorschach (1/3/17)

Hey all
Read page 1 and then skipped to the end in the interests of time and keeping it on topic so it might have already been answered.

While we're on about quals, I've got a PhD in Chemistry and work in specialty chemical manufacturing. We also use Sodium Metasilicate and Sodium Metabisulfite as raw materials so I have access to SDS etc. and experience handling them

Firstly, oral toxicity of Sodium Metasilicate is 800mg/kg in rats so assuming you weight ~80kg, you'd need to ingest 64g before this becomes an issue.
Secondly, if you're not sure what it is make up a solution and gently breathe in some of the vapour by wafting it towards you with your hand. If it takes your breath away (literally, it's an oxygen scavenger) and makes you sneeze it's Metabisulfite. I know this firsthand as we make 45% solutions of the stuff and it's potent.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (1/3/17)

I think the mechanism by which it takes your breath away is irritation rather than oxygen scavenging. The SO2 released by the bisulphite dissolves into the liquid on the surfaces in the respiratory system as sulphurous acid. The body reacts to this irritant pretty quickly, the symptoms can be a lot like asthma.

Sensitivity varies between individuals, I happen to be fairly sensitive; if I get a decent whiff of it I can't breathe for a couple of minutes. Since I work with it a lot as part of what I do for a living this can be a problematic but it hasn't killed me yet.


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## manticle (1/3/17)

They have things called 'masks' nowadays LC


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## Zorco (1/3/17)

The more minds the better.... chemistry types and brewing hey? 

Who would have guessed. 

Quite a lot was covered; but your consensus and debate is valuable.

Interesting test recommendation. Can we hold up a rat and watch him inhale instead?


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## Zorco (1/3/17)

niftinev said:


> lyrebird
> 
> I understand most of what you say post 74
> 
> my opologies for questioning you


We have real men here on AHB it seems.


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## wide eyed and legless (1/3/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> but it hasn't killed me yet.


Probably the most used phrase by someone about to die.


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## MHB (1/3/17)

Actually, based mostly on aircraft voice recorders its "_Oh Shit_"
Mark


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (1/3/17)

manticle said:


> They have things called 'masks' nowadays LC


Most masks are pretty useless against SO2 and the ones that work are a bear to use.

For the last few years I've been in positions where the main contact with actual cellar work was doing a twice daily tour to check how my workorders were going.

Now that I'm working "hands on" again I might have to do something about it.


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## manticle (1/3/17)

Yeah I was thinking of the ones that work (eg sundstrom half mask) and yes they are pretty uncomfortable but surely less than nearly passing out or struggling to breathe.


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## Bribie G (1/3/17)

Post number 85


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## bradsbrew (1/3/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Most masks are pretty useless against SO2 and the ones that work are a bear to use.
> 
> For the last few years I've been in positions where the main contact with actual cellar work was doing a twice daily tour to check how my workorders were going.
> 
> Now that I'm working "hands on" again I might have to do something about it.


 Even a P2?


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## technobabble66 (1/3/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> OK, let's take a solution of sodium metasilicate and add it to an ordinary fat, (glycerol triacylate). The acyl groups can be anything you want but let's make them stearate.
> 
> Since this is a chemistry lesson we'll take a low concentration of metasilicate solution, say 1%, which will have a pH of about 12.6. This is equivalent to hydroxyl ion concentration of ~40 mM. The concentration of sodium ions will also be around 40 mM (assuming 50% dissociation).
> 
> ...


Factually correct. (Just like post 85, thanks BribieG [emoji57]). So that probably ends the Soap Debate. 
However, the OP was using this in wort, so I'm assuming the solution/environment would've been acidic (the alkalinity of the SodMetasil would be overwhelmed by the acidity of the wort, I'm assuming). So would this substantially change the chemistry at play?
A quick bit of googling/Wikipediaing suggests SodMetasil reacts differently in acidic conditions to produce Siliclic acid. Happy to be corrected on this of course. From there it seems to get a lot murkier, but there's an indication that Silicilic acid tends to go through condensation reactions to form silica gels. All of that seems to push towards the direction of silicon dioxide, but I might be grossly oversimplifying things. 

I'll just add Silicilic acid has been suggested for health-promoting benefits (may or may not mean much, though [emoji1]) such as treatment of Alzheimer's. Whereas silica gels may have an irritative effect on the respiratory or digestive systems, but is also apparently used in brewing for certain applications ("brewery of grains for beer to improve taste, clearness, color and foam, removal of non-micro-organism impurities"). 

Can't offer anything solid other than throwing that loose info into the speculative confusion [emoji41], but I'd err towards thinking it'll be safe and fine. 
*However*, the quality might be affected a little. 
Also your mash efficiency might've been a little crap as your mash wouldn't have gotten acidic enough for ideal mash conditions, and your alkaline sparge may have extracted more tannins than ideal. The latter may actually end up being a bigger issue, depending on the beer/recipe in question and the sensitivity of your tastebuds.


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## good4whatAlesU (1/3/17)

Masks are handy.

My lungs aren't the best after many years crushing soil for labs.

They have lovely extraction fans now which weren't so readily used 'back in the day'.


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## GalBrew (1/3/17)

bradsbrew said:


> Even a P2?


I thought P2s were for particulates only not gases.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (1/3/17)

As per my comment in post #30 back on page 2, I think that adding metasilicate in small quantities to a mash will result in it precipitating out as the calcium salt.

The point I was trying to make with the soap making comment was that the hazards of metasilicate exist because it is reactive, like many other alkalis. The "caustic" in the name caustic soda comes from the Greek for _to burn._


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## bradsbrew (1/3/17)

GalBrew said:


> I thought P2s were for particulates only not gases.


Sorry wasn't paying attention. I was refering to the powder.


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## Zorco (1/3/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> The "caustic" in the name caustic soda comes from the Greek for _to burn._


And interestingly the "Lyre" in the name Lyrebird_Cycles comes from Antonymian people for 'to say the truth'.


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## Zorco (1/3/17)

Post #93


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## MHB (1/3/17)

Antonymian? is that even a real word
Mark


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## bradsbrew (1/3/17)

Is now.


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## Zorco (1/3/17)

It's a particularly cromulent word.


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## Zorco (1/3/17)

To undress the fine woman a-fresh, the Antonymian people live on the vast land of Antonym. Horrid wenches are what you're wanting


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