# Big Brewing Problem



## nabs478 (27/11/08)

Gday guys,

I have been brewing for about 2 years. I would regard myself as a fairly competent brewer and I feel I understand a lot of the stuff going on fairly well, which in part could be due to a background in chemistry. This problem I have, however, has me completely stumped!!

About 6 months ago, I brewed a batch of ESB and it turned out with an off flavour in it that was kind of bitter (not pleasingly bitter, like hops though) and reminded me of the smell in a barn yard where animals have slept (otherwise I could taste a reasonable beer trying to shine through the flavour that has become known among my friends as the barnyard).

Since then I have brewed about 15 batches with one successful witbier and one successful larger. Each time I have spent heaps of time and effort on cleaning and sterilizing and removing different steps of the process to try and work out which step is causing the infection. I was originally running an all grain system with a chilling circuit using counter flow heat exchangers with oxygen injection and a 200L stainless conical fermenter. I have got to the point now where I built a new kettle that holds about 50L (I run a system capable of making abount 160L in a batch), and piped 50L into it while it is boiling from my large kettle, then no-chilled it and transferred it into a plastic 60L fermenter that was thoroughly cleaned and then sterlised with a spray of metho/water mix then 2-3L of boiling water (I also boiled the tap). The barnyard taste was evident 24 hours after pitching the yeast very confusing.

Before I go on further I should describe some of the characteristics of the flavor I get. On about 3 or 4 brews, I tipped them before fermentation was complete because the taste was so strong. In others the flavour hasnt been so bad, in fact I served one that only had it mildly at a party after a couple of kegs of other stuff and it went down ok. I have noticed though in a couple of brews with varying degrees of the flavour that I didnt tip out for a while (up to 8 weeks on one occasion) that the flavor dropped off to some degree over time. One of these I am thinking is nearly drinkable at the moment, and seeing as I cant brew anything that tastes good, I am thinking of taking a keg of it to Meredith music festival in a couple of weeks. I also notice that the off flavor is also more noticeable if the sample is taken from the bottom of the fermenter near the yeast and other crap (sometimes including a little hop debris) than if the sample is taken from the top of the fermenter.

Today I attempted another witbier and had a bit of a revelation. During the boil, a couple of times I thought I could smell the taste I am talking about. I should add here that I have been doing my head in over this problem for a long time, and on one occasion I have thought I could taste it when a brewing friend said they couldnt taste anything, so I could have been mistaken when I smelled that smell. Then after I finished, I had a jug of wort that I tested the gravity from and tasted it. I am sure I could taste it in that sample, which was about 3 hours after it had been chilled.

Like other bitter flavours, it seems to be much more evident once the brew has fermented. I originally thought this was because it was an infection and it needed to actually do some fermenting to leave its flavour behind. Now I think it may be because all bitterness is just more evident when there is less sugar around to balance it. I am thinking now that this could be a problem not caused by a living microorganism, but rather some other crap that is getting into the beer that does not actually change much during fermentation, but just becomes more evident due to the removal of the sugar.

Given this though, I will need to describe my brewing system and cleaning steps. I will start with how I did it originally, then go through the different cleaning and process regimes I have tried.

I have a 3 tank system, HLT, Mash Tun (MT) and Kettle (K). The HLT is a stainless 44 gallon drum with 2x 4.8kW elements, temp control, sight guage and the exit has a ball valve and a solenoid valve in line. The MT is about 100L stainless tank with a false bottom, under which it is a conical shape. On its exit at the bottom of the cone there is a ball valve and a solenoid valve also. The K is basically the same as the HLT, but insulated a little better, has a different type of sight guage and has another exit in the middle on the bottom.

I heat up water in the HLT, transfer it to the MT through the exit in the bottom of th eHLT and into the bottom of the MT. As the water rises from the bottom in the MT, I scoop the grain in and wet it all up. I then leave it for 75mins will more water is heating in the HLT. I then circulate the wort for 15mins by gravity feeding it into a small esky which has level switches installed in it. The level switches drive a pump when it fills up (also shuts the solenoid valve if it gets full and does not empty soon enough) and pumps the water back to the top of th eMT. After 15mins, I start adding water to the MT and pumping the wort to the K (the MT also has a level switch which controls water in flow from the HLT). I then boil it for 60 or 90 mins depending on the beer, add hops, yeast nutrient, whirlfloc and sometimes some spices. During the boil I fill the fermenter I am going to use with some peroxytane (no rinse sanitiser) and pump it through the heat exchangers, oxygen injecting and back to the fermenter for about 15 mins. I let the boil sit to settle for 30mins, then I pump the wort through the cooling circuit into the fermenter (before the beer goes into the fermenter I tip out the peroxytane). Once the flow of hot wort has heated up the heat exchangers I would then turn the tap on for the counter flow to cool it down, and then turn on the oxygen once the flow was cold and it had cooled the liquid in the fermenter to below 30C (this sometimes meant I put 1o-15L through before I turned on the oxygen. All fluid transfer is done in silicon hose or stainless steel pipes with tri-clover clamps to connect them.

Cleaning up originally consisted of the following 

- Cleaning out all the grain from the MT and rinsing it with cold water.
- Cleaning out all the hop crap out of the K and giving it a quick once over with a scourer and rinsing it. Also flushing the inlets/outlets and the sight guage
- Flushing the heat exchanger with mains pressure in both directions.
- Rinsing out the esky and all transfer lines with mains pressure.
- Emptying any left over water from the HLT
- Also before using most pieces foir the next brew I would rinse them again and soak them in fresh peroxytane of spray them with a metho/water mix.

I now realise that this is not a very comprehensive cleaning regime and I have done the following during the last 6 months to try to rectify the situation

- The stainless fermenter had some bad welds on in the inside, so before using it I ran a heat gun over the internal welds. I also later tried cleaning it using a spray ball and 50C C4 solution (which is about 2% caustic soda with surfactants and sequesters, and is designed for cleaning stainless food production equipment) and using heat on the welds. When this didnt work, I changed to 60L plastic fermenters.

- I tried pumping 50C C4 through the cooling circuit (cooling circuit comprises of the heat exchangers, pump and oxygen injection assembly) to dissolve any crap, which didnt help. Then I started soaking the circuit in Napisan for at least 24 hours (sometimes much longer like a week or more), then rinsing it again and then soaking it is Iodophor, which I diluted to about 1:100, which is ten times strong than the recommend until the next brew day. Before use I would give it a few flushes with mains pressure and once pumped 15L of boiling water through it, which didnt help. I have now started pumping hot wort through it for 5-10 mins during the boil and back into the kettle, then when I am ready to chill, pulling of the hose going back into the kettle and plugging it into the fermenter. Still had the same problem.

- I have changed the fitting on the oxygen bottle so that it is now an in-post off a corny keg, and sprayed heaps of metho into the reg to sterilize it. I then also boiled the oxygen injection stone, hose and push connect before screwing it into the assembly fora brew. Did not help! 

- Pulled apart the 3-piece ball valves on the K and clean and sterilise them.

- As I have said earlier, I have tried boiling it in my K then transferring it to a new kettle (new, as in never used before, and built for this specific purpose) to chill in, then transferred into a fermenter without oxygen injection. I just poured it from a height into the fermenter to dissolve oxygen. I did that transfer in the kitchen which should be far enough away from my garage and any bacteria that has infected other brews. Still no good!

- Next I am thinking of not even using the big K or the esky, and just doing a 50L batch and putting it straight into the little kettle from the MT and then no-chill and into the fermenter.

I have not tried going to town on cleaning the system before the boil as I have ready in a brewing text that visually clean is enough for things that come into contact with the wort before the boil.

It has got to the point where I do not think I am going to brew anymore until I have either got some good advice or read something relevant that explains the problem I am having. I am throwing out huge amounts of beer and no longer have any ideas what could be causing it. I am planning to have a few of my beers tested for bacteria to find out definitively whether it is bacteria or not.

I will try to get some photos of my brewery up tomorrow arvo so people can see whatis going on with it.

I am interested in any suggestions, ideas or similar experiences from anybody that might help my situation!

Thanks

Pip


----------



## Adamt (27/11/08)

Pip. said:


> the barnyard



Barnyard (sweaty horse blanket) flavours are produced by Brettanomyces yeast. It's a desired flavour in lambic beers but not much good for anything else. It's notoriously hard to get rid of if it gets in your system. 

Best thing to do would be to get a fresh wort kit (or standard kit) and see if your Brett takes hold then. If it does, it's in your fermenter(s) and you're better off just chucking them. If not, a full-on caustic run through your system followed by a phosphoric acid run (after rinsing).

Hopefully others will have more detailed help for you; I just skimmed over your post as I'm tired


----------



## jonocarroll (27/11/08)

1. Post shorter. Damn. I was very tempted to just reply with TLDR and leave it at that. I still haven't read the whole thing. I got lost.

2. I would recommend getting someone who is familiar with what off-tastes are attributed to what (via a brew club, brew shop, board member who lives nearby) and see what they think. Tastes and smells are difficult to describe in words. Chances are if the person is experienced enough they will say "ah, of course - it's <insert problem>."

3. (may have been answered already) Taste your water carefully. Taste your grains carefully. Taste the hops if you need to. I would suggest (at the risk of wasting yet another batch) making a 1 grain, 1 hop, neutral, plain beer and seeing if you still get it. ESB and wits have their own smells and tastes to compete with.

4. Try the 1 grain, 1 hop beer with filtered water.

5. ???

6. Profit.

That's alls I got. Good luck.


----------



## datman510 (27/11/08)

i dont have time to read that boy, just give me the jist of it..........


----------



## Stuster (27/11/08)

I did read the whole thing, but I think I've forgotten some of it already. Your sanitation sounds pretty good (although I may be confused about what happens post-K  ). If you think it may not be contamination, posting a recipe or two might really help. Were you recipes too bitter perhaps? Did you use only saison yeasts? :unsure: :lol:


----------



## matti (27/11/08)

I am saddenened to hear all that effort gone to waist.
Didn't you post a similar thread last year?

Since you are brewing such large quantities at the time I suggest you simplify your system to leave less variables.

"A full-on caustic run through your system followed by a phosphoric acid run (after rinsing)."
+1
Also rinse caustic with hot water sanitiser with cold water then a no rinse treatment or boiled sterile water in to the fermenter.

I sugget you brew an IPA or an APA.
The hops will protect you until you got your system sorted......


----------



## MHB (28/11/08)

Obviously you have a big problem; this sort of thing can be a real bugger to try to pin it down.

If you are no-chilling and the cubes arent showing signs of the infection (i.e. swelling, smelling bad), I think you can rule out an infection in everything upstream of your fermenters.

Physically examine every part (inside the pipes and fittings) and especially inside the solenoid valves, some of these arent very helpful to brewers in that when they are open for flow or cleaning there are parts that dont get cleaned. When the valve closes they can dump contaminants into the system. This is one of the reasons food grade or sanitary fittings are so much more expensive than the more common industrial ones.

Look for corrosion of metal parts, you could depending on the materials you valves are made of be getting some wicked electrolysis (metal in beer can give some very strange flavours), or some lubricants or broken down plastic getting into your brew.

Do a water brew, just the water you would use in a brew with out any hops or malt, but all the same processes.
Taste look at and smell the water at each stage looking for any changes, might help pin down the source of a problem.
If all else fails send the water to a lab, might cost a couple of hundred bucks but it could get the right answer.

Exposing a Petri dish of agar media to the air in your brew room and seeing what grows might be interesting to.

Hope you find the problem soon, these things can be very frustrating, I had to moved house to get away from enthusiastic composters - not brew friendly at all is compost, didnt smell too good either.

MHB


----------



## newguy (28/11/08)

Two possible causes come to mind: brettanomyces or contamination of your water (which you didn't describe).

To rule out or confirm brett, try doing a no chill batch. Putting 100C wort into a sanitised cube would effectively kill any brett so if the no chill batch still has the barnyard taste/smell, it could be water contamination. If that smell/taste goes away, it's brett.

Where do you get your water from? How is it stored? [Obvious question follows] Do you get your water from a well, and if so, is there any chance that your water supply is being contaminated by livestock manure? I'm not a water treatment expert, but I think that activated carbon filtration will get rid of that barnyard smell from water.


----------



## berapnopod (28/11/08)

Really sorry to hear about your frustrating problems.

You mentioned that the flavour was there after only 24 hours, or perhaps even in the kettle? If that is the case, you can rule out Brett infections as these take quite a while to develop. In fact, I think its unlikely to be any infection given these timescales.

Your description of the flavour is difficult to pin down, so I would definitely echo the words of QuantumBrewer and visit/join a local brewing club with some samples. Its the best way to identify an off flavour!

The only thing I can think of that might be the cause is chlorinated water. Chlorine in water can react with hops to create a strong plasticky/band-aid/nappy aroma/flavour. The solution is to use either campden tablets or sodium metabisulfite to treat all your brewing water. One campden tablet should treat about 80 litres of water.

But get theself to a brew club and get some other opinions.

Berp.


----------



## Effect (28/11/08)

QuantumBrewer said:


> 5. ???
> 
> 6. Profit.



lol :lol:


----------



## nabs478 (28/11/08)

Thanks for the info guys and sorry for the long post, but I think it was necessary otherwis eI would have had to slowly put in all this info over the next few days.

I have also tried no-chilling in the plastic fermenters. I have done two loads of 50L, from the same batch. They bost had the same problem. I pumped it into them at 95C.

I use a two stage water filter with a sediment cartridge foloowed by activated carbon. IT said on the package if it is not used for 2 weeks then run 10L of water thtough it and throw it out before using the run off, which I always do.

My solenoid valves are stainless steel but I agree they could harbour some crap - but after I read soem stuff in a brewing handbook, I decided that this was not a problem as it was preboil. Can I get some opinions on that?

I have tasted mash run off and it tastes fine.

I am sure there is a heaps of bacteria hanging around in my garage, but the way I do things should stop it getting into the beer. I always use presantised, closed sytems for fluid transfer, and usually pitch the yeast inside the house away from the garage. I have considered pulling everything out and spraying the place with a sanitiser, but on one side of the garage there is just too much shit which cant get wet to make it practicle. I would dothe rest of the garage though.

I will try a fresh wort kit in a fermenter, and also try a water brew and taste it at the different stage...both great ideas!! Thanks.

I have physically examined everything that I can, which is everythign bu the inside of the heat exchangers. It all looks fine.

The flavour is definately not caused by the recipes being too bitter. I have had the rpoblem using Wyeast 1968, Fermentis US-05, Fermentis Saflager and I think now using Wyeast 3944. I have also used a wide range of malts and hops, non of which appear in every beer. Torrefied wheat has been used in almost all of them, but have tasted it and it tastes fine. I have also used TW from two different sacks and stiull had the same problem.

I live in a suburb call Bellfield, in Melbourne, which is just between Preston, Ivanhoe and Heidelberg. Is there any master off-flavour nidentifying personell in my area that want to taste some gross beer? I could throw in some decent beer, but all I got left in the decent beer category is Stout and Witbier!


----------



## jimmyjack (28/11/08)

Have you tried it with a new cartridge water filter? Have you tried it without the water filter? Those things are designed to have water going thought them daily otherwise they can get a bunch of yukky stuff built up in them.

Cheers,

JJ


----------



## Batz (28/11/08)

Buy a new fermenter and try that.
Your not leaving the wort on the yeast cake way to long after fermentation are you? Yeast bite is yucky.

Batz


----------



## Frank (28/11/08)

I think Tony had a similar problem. From memory his tap draining the kettle was full of crap. He also was assuming it would be sterile as this was from the boil, but hot wort running over crusty husks and trub in the taps were causing off flavours. It sounds like your brew rig is homemade and fairly automated. I would pull all your solenoids off (leave them on the bench), clean your valves, and try a brew by turning taps manually. All ball valves should be left open once you have finished brewing, this way no wort can get trapped in the centers. Give your chiller a good soak in cleaner and flush from the opposite direction that the wort normally travels through.


----------



## Jazzafish (28/11/08)

Another possibility is the pump sucking in air and giving you some hot side aeration? Long shot I know, but we are desperate!

I can suggest that you send a sample off to a lab to find out exactly what the problem is. We would send off samples taken from a filter/kegging run for quality control while I was brewing for a crust... not that there was ever a problem, just part of the recipe! I can't recall the exact place as a courier picked up the samples, somewhere in Rydalmere NSW? PM me if you want me to chase up the details. I'm sure there is someone closer to you.

The only way to isolate the issue is to take things out of the equation. Fresh wort kit into a new fermenter is a good start. If it is ok, start adding things from your old set up.

Use dry yeast without starter until issue is found. 

Do you use a fermentation fridge/keg fridge? Could have some nasties in there that gets its way into your beer? Easy to suck in atmosphere as it is chilling.


----------



## Doogiechap (28/11/08)

I feel for you bloke !! I haven't lost a batch (yet  ) but I would find this ordeal excruciating ! Well done in presenting so much information to help identify the issues. 
You stated that you feel you can detect the contamination pre ferment so I would be examining the pre boil stage. Whilst it is correct that bacterial based issues are mostly dealt with with the boil, if there is some festering organic matter somewhere than it won't be doing you any favors. 
Like Boston and MHB suggested the solenoid valves are a likely culprit. In a food grade environment they are pretty much designated to water due to the cavities in the mechanism that can harbor nasty stuff. Definately pull these out and break them down for close visual and aromatic inspection. It's seems that they are pretty integral to your brewing process so you may have to consider replacing them with some automated ball valves if they do prove to be the source of your problems. 
Keep reporting back on how you progress and good luck !!
Cheers
Doug


----------



## warrenlw63 (28/11/08)

Pip. said:


> Today I attempted another witbier and had a bit of a revelation. During the boil, a couple of times I thought I could smell the taste I am talking about.



G'day Pip this could be a longshot but this line sort of had me thinking. Do you boil with your lid on or partially on at all? I'm thinking if you're tasting it and smelling it during the boil the only relationship I can draw is DMS. To me the smell and most definitely the flavour remind me of overboiled broccoli.

Warren -


----------



## bouncingcastle (28/11/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> G'day Pip this could be a longshot but this line sort of had me thinking. Do you boil with your lid on or partially on at all? I'm thinking if you're tasting it and smelling it during the boil the only relationship I can draw is DMS. To me the smell and most definitely the flavour remind me of overboiled broccoli.
> 
> Warren -



Hmmm, he said he made a good lager out of all of that though... I would have thought that the DMS issue would have been more prominant??


----------



## warrenlw63 (28/11/08)

bouncingcastle said:


> Hmmm, he said he made a good lager out of all of that though... I would have thought that the DMS issue would have been more prominant??



Only offering one remote answer BC. Not trying to provoke any DMS wars.  

The fact he could smell the same thing he tasted during the boil just led me to conclude it could be just one option.

Missed the lager bit through a very protracted post by pip... My bad.

Warren -


----------



## technocat (28/11/08)

Pip: Sanitizing also means enviroment included. If you are brewing in a shed or an old structure check out whats above your equipment such as the inside roof structure you would be amazed at what accumulates there over the years. Just another two bits worth.

Cheers


----------



## crozdog (28/11/08)

Do other people detect the same smell/taste at the same time as you do? 

Whilst it is likely a bit of crud in a pipe or something like brett in a frementer, - the fact you can detect it during the boil is of concern. 

Not being nasty or anything, but maybe you are very sensitive to that particular "infection" (for want of a better term) - after all some people can detect very low levels of DMS or diacetyl, where as others don't pick them

My suggestions are get some other opinions, tear down the solenoids / ballvalves, buy a new fermenter. 

Don't forget to only change 1 thing at a time.


----------



## muckanic (28/11/08)

I've had Brett infections before, but they took 3 months to reveal themselves. The bugs seem to be able to take up home in plastic and dodge the sanitiser. Boiling takes care of that.

I am a tad suspicious of no-rinse sanitisers, especially when they are based upon oxidants like iodine or peroxide, and also don't particularly like the idea of prolonged exposure of plastics to sanitisers. I have heard stories before of plastic fermenters absorbing chlorine-based sanitisers, then causing some raunchy hop reactions thereafter. It couldn't hurt to try flushing all plastics with a metabisulphite soak to neutralise the sanitisers, but then of course you run the risk of the plastic subsequently emitting sulphur and facilitating H2S, DMS, etc! :unsure: Also, I have heard sufficient stories about the difficulties of rinsing Nappisan that I have been dissuaded from trying it myself.


----------



## newguy (28/11/08)

muckanic said:


> I am a tad suspicious of no-rinse sanitisers, especially when they are based upon oxidants like iodine or peroxide, and also don't particularly like the idea of prolonged exposure of plastics to sanitisers. I have heard stories before of plastic fermenters absorbing chlorine-based sanitisers, then causing some raunchy hop reactions thereafter. It couldn't hurt to try flushing all plastics with a metabisulphite soak to neutralise the sanitisers, but then of course you run the risk of the plastic subsequently emitting sulphur and facilitating H2S, DMS, etc! :unsure: Also, I have heard sufficient stories about the difficulties of rinsing Nappisan that I have been dissuaded from trying it myself.



Exactly why I ferment only in glass. And I use Star San.


----------



## reviled (28/11/08)

muckanic said:


> I've had Brett infections before, but they took 3 months to reveal themselves. The bugs seem to be able to take up home in plastic and dodge the sanitiser. Boiling takes care of that.
> 
> I am a tad suspicious of no-rinse sanitisers, especially when they are based upon oxidants like iodine or peroxide, and also don't particularly like the idea of prolonged exposure of plastics to sanitisers. I have heard stories before of plastic fermenters absorbing chlorine-based sanitisers, then causing some raunchy hop reactions thereafter. It couldn't hurt to try flushing all plastics with a metabisulphite soak to neutralise the sanitisers, but then of course you run the risk of the plastic subsequently emitting sulphur and facilitating H2S, DMS, etc! :unsure: Also, I have heard sufficient stories about the difficulties of rinsing Nappisan that I have been dissuaded from trying it myself.



Mate, to be honest you do sound just a teensy bit paranoid... I use Iodophor, no problems so far... I also use Napisan, and since I started using it sucessfully got rid of a strange "twang" that I seemed to have in all of my beers... And its not hard to rinse the napisan off, you can easily tell when its been rinsed enough cos it doesnt have that slippery feel any more... 

Ideally, we would all use Glass carboys, but they aint cheap!


----------



## nabs478 (28/11/08)

Thanks again for all your input.

I have not tried screwing with my filter, but it is 6 months old and it says the cartidges last for one year - Something to consider though.

I have left wort on a yeast cake for a long time, but the taste appears very quickly and dissipate sover time, so I dont think that is it.

I have tried puling apart the ball valves ont he kettle and cleaning them, but no the solenoid valves and the ball valve on the mash tun. I will citch the solenoids for the next bre wI do on that sysetm and pull down all valves.

Jazzafish - I have just bought two fresh wort kits and two Liquid Malt extract kits. I plan to do one fresh wort kit in an old fermenter that has had a normal sterlising attempt. And do one LME kit through my new 50L kettle and see how they go. If they are ok, I will do a small mash in my mash tun, then transfer it directly to the small kettle and see how that goes. I will not use the solenoid valves for that, and I will clean out all ball valves beforehand.

I took a sample to Grain and Grape today and got then to taste it. They say it is not Brett, and tastes quite astringent and not barnyard like at all. After the dicussion I think I have had brett to begin with and the problem has slowly changed into something else. The original ESB I did was heavily 'barnyard', that I am sure of, a few people tasted it and all agreed. Thne I think perhaps I may have done a couple more that had some brett, but with decreasing amount due to my sterilising regime that I slowly introduced - which makes sense as I cant see how I could be getting bacteria into the brews at the moment. They suggested perhaps mashing to high or over sparging. I am fairly sure that hasnt happened. I have a temp readout on the mash, the highest I have ever seen in during the sparge is 77.5C, and it is usually more like 74-75C. Having said that, it is a big mash, and could be hotter in some places than others, I wouldnt be surprised if some parts got up to about 79-80 in some cases, but probably not in all the batches that have exhibited this flavour. Could temps this high cause bad flavours?

Warren - DMS smells kind of like eggs or farts? If so, then defintely not. I heat the boil with the lid on, them remove it when it starts boiling.

Beernut - I definatley agree that sanitising my garage is a good plan, but I would be surprised if that was whats causing my flavour problems.

Crozdog - The guys at Grain and Grape didnt think the problem was that bad. It tastes awful to me, but inpart due to the fact that it is very bitter. I have always preferred a slightly less bitter brew. It isnt just the bitterness though, its also a bad taste that goes with it which they described as astringent, which I agree with. Some of the brews I have done have been tasted by mates, one in particular is a brewing buddy and everytimes except once he agreed there was a problem. A lot of my other freinds, who dont know much about beer dont seem to mind it at times, but I am unsure if some of them are just being polite....its usually my brothers who are the most honest and willing to tell me my beer is shit when it is - so its kind of hard to guage how much of what I taste is what John at Grain and Grape described as 'Cellar Palate'.

Reviled - I am very paranoid about this type of thing. I have brewed in the past many batches that would stand up to commercial beers. Now every batch sucks and despite the fact that some of them are just drinkable, they are still not good enough in my eyes - not to mention tipping out hundreds of litres of beer which is just way to gruesome to drink. I not only want to be able to brew great beer, but I really want to know what I have done (or not done) that has cause this to happen to increase my understanding of the process and practicle brewing knowledge.

I will run some experiments over the next week or so and get back to you guys with the results. any more ideas are more than welcome.

Thanks again.


----------



## kabooby (28/11/08)

If you can smell it during the boil than you can rule out brett.

I would do as MHB said and do a water run. Taste the water along the way and see if the flavour appears. If it doesn't try tasting your grain. Your not keeping your grain in a barnyard are you :unsure: 

Kabooby


----------



## newguy (28/11/08)

Thanks for the extra information. This is near & dear to my heart because I had a hell of an astringency problem for years.

Most people equate astringency with bitterness. A cloying bitterness that just won't go away. In some cases, a tannin extraction problem can also cause a grassy character in your beer, like a freshly mown lawn. From what you've described, it sounds as if you may have a tannin problem. This is mainly a water pH issue, but the crush of your grain can be a factor.

You'll need some pH strips or a pH meter, but the strips are cheaper. Test the pH of your water - I'll bet it's over 8. If it is, you'll need to get your hands on acid (phosphoric or lactic) or some sauermalt (acidified malt) or some pH "fixer" like the pH 5.2 powder available from places like Craftbrewer. Whatever you do get, you'll need to find out how many ml per litre of water is required to get your water's pH down to the 5-6 range using your pH strips. Once you find this out, just use that much acid or fixer per litre to adjust your water and the tannin issue (astringency) should go away. My tap water is around medium hardness and it takes 1ml of acid per every 10l of water to get the pH right. 1ml/10l is probably a good starting point. Most people use around 3-5% sauermalt for pH adjustment, if you go that route.

You can also avoid acid altogether if you mix your tap water with reverse osmosis (RO) water. Start with a 50/50 mix and adjust as necessary to get the pH to ~7.

Regarding the crush, don't pulverise the grain. Cracked is all you really require. You'll know your mill setting is good when you can't find many (if any) uncrushed kernels, but yet there isn't that much flour.


----------



## real_beer (28/11/08)

Hi Pip,

Get back to basics straight away. 

Brew a batch of beer on your stove top with simple equipment like that used at the start of "The Complete Joy of Home Brewing" or "How To Brew" etc. 

Use a simple 19 - 23 litre recipe & chill the wort in an ice bath, drain into a new (or borrowed fermenter) give the yeast oxygen by shaking the fermenter. If this batch turns out okay, next batch do exactly the same but vary one element: 

Use your oxygen bottle or air-pump to aerate the wort.
Or use your original fermenter.
Or chill down with your wort chiller etc.

If your beer turns out okay you've got good beer to drink & you know your problem isn't in the air (Have you been milling your grains in the same room you transfer your beer around in? If you have brew your next batch in another part of your home, don't mill in another area and keep brewing where you've been milling until you can eliminate this as a problem). Are your grains stored okay?

Have other brewers physically look over your system in person, maybe they'll notice a piece of equipment thats lost its coating and is reacting badly during the brewing process. Sometimes you can confront a problem for hours, days or weeks with no end in sight (I've done this heaps of times with computer programming problems), then someone else looks at it and solves it straight away because they see it from a different perspective.

Most importantly keep brewing with a simple setup while you sort out the bigger system so you keep your love of brewing intact. When it's all fixed you'll have the know how & knowledge to help the next poor sod in your present position. Don't give up!

Cheers :icon_cheers: 
real_beer


----------



## nabs478 (29/11/08)

If there is one thing I am defintely not going to do, its give up.

I have just made three batches of beer yesterday. Two with fresh wort kits, one into a fermenter that has never had this problem and one into a fermenter that has. I also used a wort kit and boiled a brew and am currently no chilling it in my 50L kettle.

Real Guy - I think what you are suggesting is correct. On e batch I did recently was 150L. I split it into three 50L batches. One I chilled with my chilling circuit and pitched US-05. One I no-chilled in the fermenter and pitched US-05 and one I no-chilled and pitched Saflager (34/70 I think?). I fermented them in different places, pitched the yeast in different places. I thought at the tiome the only thing similar is that I sued the oxygen bottle on all, which I ahve sibnce sterilised - but I never thought that was really likely to have caused this. After reaidng about astringent flavours, it has all the hall makrs, particularly that 'cloying bitterness that just wont go away', that you describe. I have 4.0-7.0 pH strips and have tested water that goes into the HLT and it reads at 5.5, which sounds wrong to me. Perhaps the strips dont work well when they ar eout of the range of 4.0-7.0? Not sure. Or perhaps this can be caused be a low pH in the mash. Anyway,m I have to go on a long drive today, about 4 hours, and I plan on sitting in th eback and reading all about mashing, pH, water chemistry, tannin extract etc. and hopefully will give a at doijng a mash tomorrow on a small batch.

Will keep you guys posted.


----------



## muckanic (1/12/08)

Pip. said:


> I have 4.0-7.0 pH strips and have tested water that goes into the HLT and it reads at 5.5, which sounds wrong to me. Perhaps the strips dont work well when they ar eout of the range of 4.0-7.0? Not sure. Or perhaps this can be caused be a low pH in the mash.



There's another possibility that hasn't been mentioned - not a high pH/tannin problem, but a low pH/dissolved metal problem. Most likely dissolved copper tarnish, although some oxidant sanitisers are caustic enough to corrode cheap stainless valves, etc, if provided with enough contact time. There hasn't been a sudden appearance of a nice shiny immersion element somewhere in the production line by any chance? Metallic ions can taste spectacularly bitter. Tannin just tastes like a lesser version of tea or red wine, and softens with age. In theory, the yeast ought to bind quite a bit of dissolved metal, although I guess it could reach some sort of saturation point.

Reviled, mate, as an indication of my level of paranoia, I frequently skip sanitisation altogether unless I am yeast farming. Washing-up liquid and a bit of elbow grease can go a long way, remaining mindful of the difference between the infection potential of fresh wort and fermented beer. However, desperate times call for desperate measures, and I am aware of previous cases where brewers have gone overboard with the sanitisation regime and have actually created more problems than they solved. Hence my comments about plastic absorption of chemicals. FWIW, my Brett infections have all occurred in PET bottles and I proved to myself that they didn't come from the plastic fermenter.


----------



## daanmuller (1/12/08)

Adamt said:


> Barnyard (sweaty horse blanket) flavours are produced by Brettanomyces yeast. It's a desired flavour in lambic beers but not much good for anything else. It's notoriously hard to get rid of if it gets in your system.
> 
> Best thing to do would be to get a fresh wort kit (or standard kit) and see if your Brett takes hold then. If it does, it's in your fermenter(s) and you're better off just chucking them. If not, a full-on caustic run through your system followed by a phosphoric acid run (after rinsing).
> 
> Hopefully others will have more detailed help for you; I just skimmed over your post as I'm tired



I had something similar to this problem, A pale Ale I did had the same off smell, I pitched my yeast which i cultivated from a coopers pale ale. 

How would you go about ridding Brettanomyces from fermenters, lines, air locks what ever?

CHeers


----------



## Adamt (1/12/08)

Easiest solution is to throw anything out which you know has Brett in it. 

As muckanic said earlier in the thread; once it is in plastic you're going to have trouble getting it out. 

However it'd be best to find out for certain if it's your fermenter by running another batch through it.


----------



## Effect (1/12/08)

Seriously Pip...not trying to joke around.

I would buy a whole new brewery and set up - that is just me - I could not be stuffed tinkering around for months + drinking substandard (in your opinion) beers.

I do admire how persitant you are with trying to find the problem and it will help others on here, but after pulling everything apart, cleaning with all different chemicals, boiling water and then sanitising, buying a new fermenter and doing much more..............if you still can't find the problem...I would bail.


PS: Have you tried anyother home brewers beer recently just to see if you are just highly sensitive to this infection (if it is an infection?)

Not sure if you have posted this - how fresh are your ingredients?


----------



## Brewtus (1/12/08)

Pip, FWIIW, 
1/ try using bottled water. You can get 15l jerry cans full at Coles etc. Won't cost too much for a 23l brew but could settle the water debate.
2/ Go and do a brew with another brewer and see what he (or she) does differently. See if you can detect the same smell.
3/ Change every thing or thoroughly clean/ sterilize at once and if it goes away as one bit at a time may allow the contamination to 'hide' in different parts and move back. Does it matter what it was if it is gone?
4/ If it is a grain problem than a FWK free from the problem will prove that.
5/ How can it be the fermenter if it can be smelled in the boil?
6/ No one has asked about your hops, do tell. Boil without hops for 10 min and see if you smell it.

good luck....


----------



## jonocarroll (2/12/08)

If G&G reckon it's not Brett then I'd probably trust 'em. On that note though - I was up at a winery in the Adelaide Hills and the winemaker up there said he would usually end up with three or so barrels infected with Brett each year. He didn't worry about testing for it; if he thought he could smell it, the barrel got smashed up outside. Better safe than sorry I guess.

I hope you're problems clear up and you're able to get a brew that you're happy with. :icon_cheers:


----------



## dr K (2/12/08)

Pip
Brett gets some pretty bad press.
Despite the barnyard bits at the beginning your problem (as others have pointed out) is not Brett.
Now Brett, despite being the fallboy for every second brewers bad beer problems these days is not all that easy to "get"..For starters it has to come from somewhere, it is a yeast but it is a very quiet but very persistent yeast, the Fabian of the Fermentation world you might say, then agian you might say vulture or even dung beetle.. You may find it on grape skins, you will likely find it on cherries but short of innoculation you are not likely to get it your beer and even if you do it will be dominated by the stronger yeasts and will only become apparent months at least down the track and even then the standard methods of beer storage (sealed oxygen proof containers) are not conducive to Bretts multiplication game.
Has anyone who has tasted the beer mentioned a possible pediococcus infiltration?
Ped is a much more likely candidate for infecting anyones beer than my mate Brett.
A small aside, beer does not have to be infected to be affected, chances of Ped or a heap of other little helpers not making its way into any of our beers is about Zero, its only when the conditions (which we control) allow that the casual visit becomes a home invasion. Ped is lactic acid producing bacteria but in the right conditions produces diacetyl. Ped helps make sauerkraut and is probably in your yoghurt and for that matter if your milk was not pastuerised in your milk as well.
Good luck in your quest...and report your results.

K


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy (2/12/08)

Hi Pip,

Just something simple but those peroxide sanitisers do have a used by date of generally about 2-3 years, if stored properly. By that I mean out of sunlight and away from heat.

The stuff that I use is Huwa-san from Jasol, and I spoke to them about proper storage. Huwa-san has silver ions to stabilize it so it has long shelf life, if it didn't it would basically turn into water in a matter of a few weeks.

So what I'm trying to say is maybe try another form of sanitzer such as starsan or use bleach and vinegar (as mentioned on this site in many places) which you haven't used before to hit the microbes with something they haven't been exposed too before.

Here is that thread of tony's that somebody mentioned when he had alot of trouble,

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...liters&st=0

Good luck with your quest to hunt down and smite the evil that lurks in your brewery.


----------



## nabs478 (3/12/08)

Thanks again for your input.

My two fresh wort kits have gone from 1060 to 1009 and taste good. 

My LME, with a little DME, sucrose and a few cascade and amarillo hops tastes fine also. It was boiled in my new 50L kettle, no-chilled and I pitched US-05. It has gone from 1040 to 1021, so it still has a little way to go, but it tastes very clean right now, which is is not usual when tasting a brew from the fermenter tap half way through fermentation.

I also made a trippel. I made this trippel using my normal mash tun with the solenoid valve removed and the ball valve had been dismantled and cleaned before use. I lautered it directly into my 50L kettle, boiled, added hops and no chilled using he same routine as the LME/DME/Sucroe brew. I made a yeast starter for this one using some of the LME/DME brew and Wyeast 3787 (unfortunetly G&G only had one pack so the yeast starter mas a must!) and it has gone from 1080 to 1065. It has a very faint taste of the astringent bitter flavour. A bit hard to tell how bad it will be at this stage, but I am quite sure it is there. I monitored the pH and temp during the brew carefully. I mashed it at 65 C, but because it was only 11kg of grain in a big mash tun, by the time I had re-circulated it for a while it was down to 58 C and it still was not very clear. I used sparge water at 77 C (I mixed it up a lot to make sure there was no hot spots!), and the hottest the mash tun got according to my temp probe was 74 C. The pH was around 5.2 at the end of the mash and was about 5.2-5.3 when I terminated the lauter (gravity of run-off was 1028 at that point). All those figures sound exactly like they should be!

I think I can rule out hops as the DME/LME brew tasted fine. I am quite sure it is not a metal ion problem as the only non-stainless metals are the copper elements and one breass fitiing in the HLT, neither of which look remotely shiny. Akthough the brass fitting looks quite black. I have a friends who has brass in his kttle and it looks the same, but his beers tast efine 

It seems at this stage I have narrowed it down to either something in my HLT, mash tun or the mashing cycle. I still think it sounds like astringency from the malt. I am leaning towards using some CaSO4 and perhpas some CaCl2 to treat my brewing water as per the article Stuster posted, using bought water from the supermarket, using a mates mash-tun anf HLT and sparging with water at 74 C and see how I go with that. I will also try another LME/DME brew in my small kettle and use the chilling circuit. I am kind of hoping to rule that out as it makes life very easy! If I can rule it out, I will contine to do extract brews and use it to ensure that it does not start causing problems again after I have ruled it out.

I will keep you all posted with results.

PS: Philip - I can not afford to build a new set-up, time-wise or money-wise. I have spent far to much time and money on my brewing set-up as it is. There is a simple problem, I just dont yet know what it is. I will find it, remove it and be a lot wiser (and richer) for it than I would be if a built or bought a new brewery.


----------



## /// (3/12/08)

dr K said:


> Has anyone who has tasted the beer mentioned a possible pediococcus infiltration?



Yes - the old Scharers filler was full of it. Pull everything apart, clean clean and clean. pH is key, target mash 4.9 - 5.4.

Insterestingly, you mention keeping 'beer on yeast for a while'. Are you at ambioent temps, ferment it, get to target gravity, D-rest it for 2 days and get it the hell off and cold!

Scotty


----------



## Darren (3/12/08)

Hi Pip,

I admit I haven't read all of your posts, they are soooooooooooooooooooooo long. (your not pistol patch by any chance??)

I notice you do not post any recipes. If you have harsh bitterness in your beer, chances are it is simply over-hopping with a harsh hop.

From your descriptions, your problem is evident well before a microbial contaminant could take hold so I would say you can easily rule out "spoilage"

What hops, how much would help.

cheers

Darren


----------



## newguy (4/12/08)

Pip. said:


> Akthough the brass fitting looks quite black.



This suggests that blackened brass may be really bad regarding lead from the brass leaching into your wort.


----------



## nabs478 (4/12/08)

Darren - I am quite sure that over hopping is not the problem. One brew I made, beer smith quoted it at 9.8 IBU, from experience, I think with my system, the beer smith estimation needs to be multiplied by about 1.45 to get the true value, and it was veyr bitt and gruesome. It is not at all like hop bitterness. It is very harsh and does takes a lot longer to go away.

/// - I only keep beer on the yeast cake if it is no good. I usually do that if I have tasted the bad taste 3-7 days into the ferment and cant be bothered cleaning the fermenter properly. Incidently though, I have tasted some of those brews a month or so later, which have been sitting on the garage floor with all the yeast and they taste much better (still really bad though) after that time (I have posted that the bad taste dissipates over time slowly) and I have never tasted a hint of autolysis.

Newguy - The article says its posisble to leach lead into the wort. It does not say its bad or that is has any flavour inpact. None the less, I really should get rid of that fitting and replace it with a stainless one....not sure if they make such a thing though!


----------



## rclemmett (4/12/08)

Pip. said:


> Newguy - The article says its posisble to leach lead into the wort. It does not say its bad or that is has any flavour inpact.



I think that may be assumed Pip. Lead = Bad. Think of the Roman Empire.


----------



## debineko (4/12/08)

While having nothing of substance to add to this thread, I've just read it ALL (no joke) from beginning to where the plot currently thickens, and I'd have to say it's the best who-done-it I've come across in a long long while. Keep posting Pip!! :super:


----------



## Darren (4/12/08)

Pip. said:


> Darren - I am quite sure that over hopping is not the problem. One brew I made, beer smith quoted it at 9.8 IBU, from experience, I think with my system, the beer smith estimation needs to be multiplied by about 1.45 to get the true value, and it was veyr bitt and gruesome. It is not at all like hop bitterness. It is very harsh and does takes a lot longer to go away.



PP, have you thought that maybe you don't like the taste of beer? If you can smell your "vial" flavour at the boil I cannot see how you can get over your problem.

cheers

Darren


----------



## staggalee (4/12/08)

I know I`ll get an arsekicking for this,but it won`t change my mind........after following the 3 pages of this thread, my extract and spec. grain beers are looking better and more trouble free with every post.
Sorry about that and Pip, good luck sorting it out. Don`t think there`s to many solutions left for you.  

stagga.


----------



## jonocarroll (4/12/08)

@stagga - Not to start a flame war or nothing, but from what I can see, nothing that Pip's done (or not done) to lead to this problem has been specific to AG. I'd bet you can get the exact same problem (whatever that may be) using extracts, or even K&K. If it's the taps getting gunked up, you've got the same chance of gunking up your strainer/whatever. If it's a ferment issue, there's no difference. That said, yes - there are more places you need to investigate if you get a problem with AG. All you'd (and keep in mind... I'd have to too since I'm still not quite at AG) have to do would be to change the kitchen pot.

Pip - I really think you need a few first hand experiences from other members. The forum is probably not going to figure out what you're problem is. We can only make suggestions. Perhaps look through Palmer's section "Is my beer ruined?" and see if you can narrow it down a bit. Good luck :beer:


----------



## matti (4/12/08)

The rules are simple.

Pre boil: 
Ingredients, recipe and process will account for a type of beer you are seeking to brew.
Post boils:
All equipment that the wort gets in contact *must be sterile* 
Fermentation:
Healthy Yeast and temperature control is highly recommended.
Transfering beer:
All equipment that the beer gets in contact *must be sterile* and avoid aeration at all cost. 

On the assumption that you are controlling all these aspect in home brewing the equipment will play very little part in affecting the flavour of the brew.
Saying that, I am not discounting that the cause to be limited to these factor.

We have covered the water factor, yes?

Good luck


----------



## Frank (4/12/08)

Rob2 said:


> I think that may be assumed Pip. Lead = Bad. Think of the Roman Empire.





debineko said:


> While having nothing of substance to add to this thread, I've just read it ALL (no joke) from beginning to where the plot currently thickens, and I'd have to say it's the best who-done-it I've come across in a long long while. Keep posting Pip!! :super:


I think it was Colonel Mustard, with the Lead Piping , in the Study...(or Brew Shed)...


----------



## muckanic (5/12/08)

Pip. said:


> I am quite sure it is not a metal ion problem as the only non-stainless metals are the copper elements and one breass fitiing in the HLT, neither of which look remotely shiny. Akthough the brass fitting looks quite black. I have a friends who has brass in his kttle and it looks the same, but his beers tast efine
> 
> It seems at this stage I have narrowed it down to either something in my HLT, mash tun or the mashing cycle. I still think it sounds like astringency from the malt.



Try tasting the hot water out of the HLT and, for that matter, out of the kettle since they seem to be more or less the same 44 drum design. It's probably a bit late now, but you could also try the standard 1:2 peroxide (3%):vinegar treatment for your brass fittings - 5 mins @ room temperature. I assume the kettle employs internal element(s)? Any possibility of scorching going on there? You could try boiling up some sugary, appropriately acidified water as a test. Lastly, gelatine finings can reduce tannic astringency, at a cost. You could always draw off a sample and try it.


----------



## nabs478 (18/12/08)

Just thought I should let you guys know I am now sure the problem I was having was the tannin extraction from sparging too hot. I have done a couple of grain brews and they are fine. The trippel I brewed that I thought had a bit of the problem has turned out ok...I think I was just scared it was there.

Thanks for all you help.


----------



## Doogiechap (18/12/08)

Good to hear that you have nailed it bloke 
It was a painful exercise to go through but you have a wealth of knowledge about strategies to take if you do come across some nasty resident bugs 
Thanks for keeping us updated !
Cheers
Doug


----------

