# Water For American Pale Ale?



## Bribie G

I'm doing a batch of APA - wasn't a real fan until I tried some excellent ones at BABBs comp so I'm giving one a bash.
Running up a batch of RO water now and wondering what I need to pimp it up with - suggest half a tsp Calcium Sulphate, quarter Magnesium Sulphate? (33L strike volume) - I'm basing that on it being hop driven, any advice appreciated.


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## Kieren

What's your source water?


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## marksfish

cal. sulphate 50-75 ppm whiich would be around 5 to 7 grams and around a quarter of that for mag. you may need to check this as the ppm is for melbourne water which is pretty soft.


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## jbirbeck

BribieG said:


> I'm doing a batch of APA - wasn't a real fan until I tried some excellent ones at BABBs comp so I'm giving one a bash.
> Running up a batch of RO water now and wondering what I need to pimp it up with - suggest half a tsp Calcium Sulphate, quarter Magnesium Sulphate? (33L strike volume) - I'm basing that on it being hop driven, any advice appreciated.



without beersmith up and running and my water chemistry being a touch ordinary....thats going to add a lot of sulphates and really make the hops stand out. Question would be whether you'd get enough calcium in there (I suspect it will be too low) and if there would be sufficient other minerals to do the things they need to do. Ph may be a bit off too depending on your grain bill...

one thing about great APA's over ordinary one's is balance and too many people forget that. yes its about the hops but it can't only be about hops. You can go nuts on hops but if you don't have the malt flavour and richness, toastiness to back it up water chemistry won't help. Yes water chemistry may make a very good recipe a great beer but it won't make an ordinary recipe any better.

What is your recipe? colour?


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## Bribie G

Kieren said:


> What's your source water?



H2O :icon_cheers: - I'm using my new reverse osmosis bling I got from GB so it's basically the same as distilled. Yup I'll up the calcium, but go just the slightest Mg. I remember Fourstar on another thread recently who reckoned that for most brews there is a fair bit on Mg supplied by the malt itself. 

21L batch (for one keg) Grain bill is bog simple: 5000 BB Ale, 100 med crystal and 200 carapils. Not a rice or a sugaz in sight  - Hops 20 Galena 60 mins, 20 Cascade 20 min, 20 Cascade 5 min. 

BS says 13.4 EBC, 37.5 IBU.

Off topic, I know I found out the answer earlier this year, but Beersmith doesn't seem to list US-05 for some reason. I got a 'fix' but my computer died and when I reinstalled, I'd lost my modifications such as Thomas Fawcett, Barrett Burston etc. I've got those back again, but can't find anything for US-05 which I can add manually of course but wondering if anyone had a beersmith file with it in. Cheers.

(edited)


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## Kieren

Assuming beer EBC around 15 and target residual is 0 then I would just add 3g os CaSO4 an 2g CaCl2 per 20L added to the kettle.


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## bconnery

BribieG said:


> H2O :icon_cheers: - I'm using my new reverse osmosis bling I got from GB so it's basically the same as distilled. Yup I'll up the calcium, but go just the slightest Mg. I remember Fourstar on another thread recently who reckoned that for most brews there is a fair bit on Mg supplied by the malt itself.
> 
> 21L batch (for one keg) Grain bill is bog simple: 5000 BB Ale, 100 med crystal and 200 carapils. Not a rice or a sugaz in sight  - Hops 20 Galena 60 mins, 20 Cascade 20 min, 20 Cascade 5 min.
> 
> BS says 13.4 EBC, 37.5 IBU.
> 
> Off topic, I know I found out the answer earlier this year, but Beersmith doesn't seem to list US-05 for some reason. I got a 'fix' but my computer died and when I reinstalled, I'd lost my modifications such as Thomas Fawcett, Barrett Burston etc. I've got those back again, but can't find anything for US-05 which I can add manually of course but wondering if anyone had a beersmith file with it in. Cheers.
> 
> (edited)



Might be worth having a play with the water additions in beersmith if you haven't already. Pick a water from a US city in an area known for hoppy beers perhaps...

Here's the yeast file from mine...

View attachment Yeast.bsm


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## jbirbeck

add some baking soda as well to adjust the ph to the range you want for that colour. 

And use more hops...1g/l isn't going to get you where you want to be.

While I like the recipe, for balance and to get the right sort of flavours for an APA I think you need malt focussed grains (a touch of munich to support the ale, and caramunich for depth are good starts, caraamber too) not standard crystals and not carapils. Amber may work in light doses. But that may be a taste thing, any chance you have found a nice recipe from the beers you liked at BABBS...just my thoughts as an overly picky APA drinker.


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## glaab

didn't you used to dive for the shotgun at any mention of "C" hops?
I knew you'd see the light eventually :icon_cheers:


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## MarkBastard

Why not give regular water a go first Bribie? The last APA I did was fanstastic using unmodified water. Ask argon about it, great recipe (LCPA clone)


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## sinkas

listen to the brewing network shop on IIPA's, and on the waterchem


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## Bribie G

Wow thanks for the tips. 

In the spec malts I only have Med Xtal, Melanoidin, Carared, BB Caramalt, Caraaroma and some choc chit, and forget about the Carapils which was just for foaming purposes. I'd left the munich out of my last order but will get some in with my next lot of base malt, too late for this batch. 

Thanks for the file Ben, _again_ - IIRC you helped me out with that in March whenever. Yes I'll up the additions to 30, 30 and 30 and probably 20 dry hop as well. The c-hops sort of snuck up on me, and when I had a pint of Geronimo at the International Hotel I thought "mm C hops" argghhh my tastebuds have been hijacked  

Might go 1/4 town water just to add in any trace elements that might be missing, Nev who supplied the unit says he often gets good results using half and half depending on style.


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## jbirbeck

BribieG said:


> Wow thanks for the tips.
> 
> In the spec malts I only have Med Xtal, Melanoidin, Carared, BB Caramalt, Caraaroma and some choc chit, and forget about the Carapils which was just for foaming purposes. I'd left the munich out of my last order but will get some in with my next lot of base malt, too late for this batch.



my vote would be for malnoidin to get depth of malt flavour and a touch of caraaroma. One thing I think too many people do to APA's is go nuts on crystals. the late hops add a fruity sweet flavour that can throw the lot out of balance. need some savoury malt to support the sweet bitter hops IMHO.


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## [email protected]

I think standard tap water here in the SEQ generally produces a reasonable pale ale. I generally only use RO for lagers etc.

But if you want to play with profiles Mosher's are a good starting point - Tasty McDole uses the Ideal Pale Ale for his APAs and IPAs.

Moshers 'Ideal Pale Ale". 1 gram baking soda, 1 gram canning salt, 3.5 grams Epsom salt, 9 grams gypsum. Ca=111, SO4=337, Mg=18, Na=35, Cl=32, CO3=38, Hardness=352, Alkalinity=31. 

More details and other profiles of his are here. http://brewery.org/library/wchmprimer.html

I generally also use Horizon or a low co-humulone hop for APAs to give a smooth bitterness compared to Galena. I agree with Rooting Kings in that some munich is needed (5-10%) to add some complexity.


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## Fourstar

Airgead said:


> Love the ABC podcasts. For me its pretty much podcast and mp3 all the way now. Seldom listen tot he radio. The DJ's just S&%@ me right off. Especially the "breakfast crews".
> 
> Maybe I'm getting old.




Dont complicate it, It doesnt need to be a plethora of salts if using RO water. Simply boost the calcium and suflate. As you already know Bribie, i like my 2:1 ratio SO4 to Cl.

6g CaSO4
3gCaCl2

if you really want some Mg go 2-3g, IMO The 6g/3g works well for APA's and for IPA's its just as good. :icon_cheers:


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## eamonnfoley

A good profile I use for a APA is:

71 Ca
0 Mg
0 Na
56 SO4
48 Cl
30 HCO3

medium softish with a slide edge to sulfates, but fairly balanced. you need CaCl, CaSO4, and CaC03. If you want sharper bitterness bump up the gypsum a tad. But you want the APA to be supremely drinkable with some balance so dont go overboard.


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## Bribie G

Thanks Guys, final attempt (doughing in shortly as I've overshot the strike temp and it needs to cool down from 72  )

Water: 

Fourstar's suggestion but put in a tad Mg

Recipe:

5000 BB Ale
150 Melanoidin
100 Caraaroma

65.5 degrees 60 mins

25 Columbus 60 mins (slightly less co humulone than Galena but that citrus character)
30 Cascade 20 mins
30 Cascade 5 mins
20 Cascade dry after 3 days 

US-05 pitch both sides of repack - rehydrated

18 degrees

:icon_drunk:


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## manticle

I've been using a 50/50 ratio of CasO4: CaCl2 to both mash and boil for an APA I'm pretty happy with (been using that amount for pretty much every beer actually). My water is melbourne tap. Have noticed recently that adding a touch of sodium Chloride and a pinch of magnesium sulphate has made the salts too noticeable evn though I enjoy the finish and hop brightening. Might work differently with RO water though.

Not sure I'd add bicarb - every source I've read suggests carbonates only for dark beers rather than light.

I brewed decent beers without adjusting mash pH so my levels are purely for me to see if there's a flavour difference (and there is) but I don't want to overdo it.

Also pretty happy with my hopbursted APA which just uses pale malt and medium crystal. Plenty of malt and toffee going on in there. Not saying I wouldn't try one out with munich or vienna one day - just that straight crystal can give a good result in my experience. Best thing I've learnt about brewing APAs though (I used to be a bit like bribie and avoid brewing them till I tasted some crackers) is that they don't have to be cloudy. For a while I thought loads of hops equalled cloudy but mine are coming up clear as a bell with no filtering etc.

Try breaking your hop additions from 30 up into small frequent amounts. Gives a multilayering to the hop profile (eg every 5 minutes pu a bit in) if you can be bothered hanging round the kettle for 30 mins.


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## schooey

3g CaCl & 3g CaSO4 to the mash and 3g CASO4 to the kettle.... works for me 

edit: If you have some Zinc, put a poofteenth in the mash also


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## AndrewQLD

Am I reading this wrong? Your going to use RO water, yes? That means your starting out with water devoid of ions.
I don't think 6g CaSO4 3gCaCl2 is going to cut the mustard.
If your using RO water you need to completely build your water chemistry from the bottom up.
The additions suggested above will give you a water profile like this, I can't see that being much use for anything.

*Calcium*_*:*_ 117.1 ppm

*Sulfate*_*:*_ 176.9 ppm *
Magnesium:* 0.0 ppm
_*Chloride:*_ 75.9 ppm 
*Sodium*_*:*_ 0.0 ppm 
*Bicarbonate:* 0.0 ppm

This is a typical water profile from Chicago IL according to Beersmith, there' a huge difference.

*Calcium*_*:*_ 34.0 ppm
*Sulfate*_*:*_ 25.0 ppm *
Magnesium:* 11.0 ppm
_*Chloride:*_ 11.0 ppm *
Sodium*_*:*_ 6.0 ppm *
Bicarbonate:* 106.0 ppm

Of course I'm no water expert so I'll throw this out there for comments.

Andrew


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## manticle

^ that's why I normally stay out of water chemistry threads. Too much going on that I know too little about. I was aware that RO water would strip the profile right back but don't know enough to advise how to build it back up again.


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## Fourstar

as bribie noted, trace elements should be added back but as for Carbonates and Sodium... not required for this style. As for Mg, ive been led to believe you get plenty from your grist, add a touch of epsom if you feel so inclined but i wouldnt be looking at anything close to a tsp. At the end of the day i'd simply add a few L of tap water to give you some trace elements but thats about it.


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## AndrewQLD

Fourstar said:


> as bribie noted, trace elements should be added back but as for Carbonates and Sodium... not required for this style. As for Mg, ive been led to believe you get plenty from your grist, add a touch of epsom if you feel so inclined but i wouldnt be looking at anything close to a tsp. At the end of the day i'd simply add a few L of tap water to give you some trace elements but thats about it.



I would say your right, when using normal tap water already containing these ions, but I think your wrong in this case.


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## AndrewQLD

After having a look in the water profiler here's what I came up with for RO water additions to get reasonably close to the Chicargo water profile, remember that profiles from different areas will require some quite drastic salt additions to get close compared to this.

*Calcium*_*:*_ 28.3 ppm
*Sulfate*_*:*_ 30.8 ppm 
*Magnesium:* 7.8 ppm
_*Chloride:*_ 28.6 ppm 
*Sodium*_*:*_ 10.4 ppm
*Bicarbonate:* 31.5 ppm *
PH:* 7.0 
_*Water Additions Needed*_ *
Gypsum*_*:*_ 0.0 gm
*Baking Soda*_*:*_ 0.0 gm 
*Salt:* 0.5 gm
*Chalk*_*:*_ 1.0 gm *
Epsom Salt*_*:*_ 1.5 gm *
Calcium Chloride:* 0.5 gm

_* This is the Water profile of Chicago IL
*_*Calcium*_*:*_ 34.0 ppm
*Sulfate*_*:*_ 25.0 ppm *
Magnesium:* 11.0 ppm
_*Chloride:*_ 11.0 ppm *
Sodium*_*:*_ 6.0 ppm *
Bicarbonate:* 106.0 ppm

Obviously a little more tweaking is required to get it closer, but the beauty of using RO water is that you can really target into a specific regions water profile very accurately.

Andrew
_*

PS. This is based on 19 lt and will change as per your volumes
PSS. Please understand that my post is based on my understanding from reading I have done, I'm not a Chemist, please feel free to shoot me down if I am wrong.
*_


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## brando

BribieG is using RO water, which I understand is close to distilled water.

The 4 part waterganza series on the BN's 'Brewstrong" talks about water chemistry, with examples based on distilled water.

I recommend setting aside a couple of hours to listen to this if you haven't done so already BribieG. Has helped my understanding alot.

Having said that, I'm not keen to suggest anything due to lack of experience on water chemistry, and the fact that everyone seems to have a different opinion/understanding.


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## sama

+1 Andrew qld....Id play around with the brissy brewers nomograph or the palmer spreadsheet etc.determine your malt bills srm, adjust salts to get yaself in that magic 5ish ph ,bicarbonate level of say 100 ,with at least 50ppm calcium and the chloride to sulphate ratio desired(depending wether your leaning to malty or crisp and hoppy. Id look for an even balanced chloride to sulphate ratio cause i like a balnced malt to hop beer flavor. Those podcasts are good if ya can find the time to listen to em,along with palmers book. (good to listen to on the train etc).


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## felten

Tasty mcdole is pretty well known for using RO water exclusively and I think there is a lot of info out on the web on what profile he uses, a quick google gives me this http://terrencetheblack.com/forum/viewtopi...f=7&t=14140

no time to search anymore, as I'm resting a decoction atm @[email protected]


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## AndrewQLD

I should point out that I wasn't trying to suggest one particular water profile over another, just that you shouldn't use RO water and just chuck in a few grams of this or that based on what you did using tap water, it will give a completely different water profile than what ou get using tap water.


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## Dazza_devil

When attempting to brew an APA and using a USA city water profile, is it safe to assume that American Breweries don't use any water additives?


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## eamonnfoley

Water varies all over the USA as it does here. I've read an american pale ale water profile should be like that of a british pale ale but softer.
I wouldnt use salts unless you understand water chemistry enough - you may end up doing more damage than its worth. If your taking a stab in the dark, most you should do is go 50% RO 50% filtered tap, then add some Gypsum.


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## Fourstar

AndrewQLD said:


> I should point out that I wasn't trying to suggest one particular water profile over another, just that you shouldn't use RO water and just chuck in a few grams of this or that based on what you did using tap water, it will give a completely different water profile than what ou get using tap water.



Hi Andrew,

I am basing my assumpions for Bribie on the techniquies i currently employ to water thats has a marginal mineral concentration already. Have you seen the water reports for Mebournes water? Everything is 7ppm or less except for carbonates which sits around 15~. Thats about as devoid of minerals/close to RO water as you are going to get.

If you are brewing a pale ale with no _acidic_ malts, there is no reason why you should be adding alkalinity in the form of (bi)carbonates. Its just not required and its possible you will stuff your mash if there is not enough hardness to buffer it. 

As i had already noted which you may have missed, adding a few L back of your *base * tap water unadulterated (carbon filtered if you are so inclined), 2-5L should suffice to give you some trace under 5ppm, which is all that you would need. There is no requirement for you to get your chalk or sodium bicarbonate out for this style of beer. Infact some people will tell you not to use them, ever. Yes, even with dark beers but i'll leave that to thirstyboy to cover if he feels its necessary.

If youre really worried, some yeast nutrient wouldnt go astray as an added safety net for yeast health.


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## Bribie G

I'm downloading the BN shows now and listen on train over the weekend :icon_cheers: Mash went well and extremely good break and compact cold break layer. Hit gravities ok, now for the fermentation. Yes I'll get a pack of yeast nutrient from CB next order as insurance policy. 

I seriously wouldn't bother with RO if I lived in Melbourne, the areas of Sydney serviced by the Warragamba dam, Sunshine Coast or Bundberg - you guys have nectar on tap there and I'd only be removing the chlorine, but the Bribie Stuff (actually improved a fair bit since the Water Grid was completed) is a real handicap.


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## felten

you might find you have to listen the the series two or three times before it makes sense, like everything they do, the info is there but it takes them a while to get to it


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## sama

BribieG said:


> I'm downloading the BN shows now and listen on train over the weekend :icon_cheers:




thats the go mate.Great info..also,out of curiosity,what is wrong with your tap water or is a report unobtainable?


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## AndrewQLD

Fourstar said:


> Hi Andrew,
> 
> I am basing my assumpions for Bribie on the techniquies i currently employ to water thats has a marginal mineral concentration already. Have you seen the water reports for Mebournes water? Everything is 7ppm or less except for carbonates which sits around 15~. Thats about as devoid of minerals/close to RO water as you are going to get.
> 
> If you are brewing a pale ale with no _acidic_ malts, there is no reason why you should be adding alkalinity in the form of (bi)carbonates. Its just not required and its possible you will stuff your mash if there is not enough hardness to buffer it.
> 
> As i had already noted which you may have missed, adding a few L back of your *base * tap water unadulterated (carbon filtered if you are so inclined), 2-5L should suffice to give you some trace under 5ppm, which is all that you would need. There is no requirement for you to get your chalk or sodium bicarbonate out for this style of beer. Infact some people will tell you not to use them, ever. Yes, even with dark beers but i'll leave that to thirstyboy to cover if he feels its necessary.
> 
> If youre really worried, some yeast nutrient wouldnt go astray as an added safety net for yeast health.



Fair enough, however Melbourne water does contain ions and not just some of them but all of them, RO water doesn't to any quantifiable amount. Adding the salts you suggested to Melbourne water may well be perfect but it will give a totally different overall profile to RO water. Even allowing for the minor levels in Melbourne water is not the same as nil levels in RO water.

Bribie asked the question "I'm doing a batch of APA and using *RO water*, what do I need to pimp it up",
he didn't ask " I am doing a batch of APA using *Melbourne water* what do I need to pimp it up"
Giving advice to use the same water additions as you use isn't really going to give him the same results you get.
That's what I was trying to get at.
I'm not having a pick Fourstar but I don't think near enough close enough will cut it here.

Bribie I use the Ezy water calculator V2 pretty easy to use and if you continue to use RO water it will help greatly.
You can download it here 

Andrew


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## razz

Andrew that program would have to be the easiest one of seen yet.  
Although I do like the BABBS Nomograph.


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## manticle

Easy (ez ha ) except for the annoying insistence on imperial units that so many online spreadsheets seem to insist on. Most of the world is metric so why can't they at least offer both choices? Beer recipator.org an American recipe development software spreadsheet (and carbonation cals, hydrometer correction calc etc) offers the user a choice of units. Makes life so much easier.


Just edited to suggest I am a tit. See below.


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## AndrewQLD

manticle said:


> Easy (ez ha ) except for the annoying insistence on imperial units that so many online spreadsheets seem to insist on. Most of the world is metric so why can't they at least offer both choices? Beer recipator.org an American recipe development software spreadsheet (and carbonation cals, hydrometer correction calc etc) offers the user a choice of units. Makes life so much easier.



There is a metric version download right under that annoying imperial one Manticle.

Andrew


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## manticle

Damn my eyes. I downloaded the imperial and stuffed around for thirty minutes with online converters to see if my current additions made sense.

I take back every bad thing I ever said about ez.


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## Fourstar

AndrewQLD said:


> Bribie asked the question "I'm doing a batch of APA and using *RO water*, what do I need to pimp it up",
> he didn't ask " I am doing a batch of APA using *Melbourne water* what do I need to pimp it up"
> Giving advice to use the same water additions as you use isn't really going to give him the same results you get.
> That's what I was trying to get at.
> I'm not having a pick Fourstar but I don't think near enough close enough will cut it here.



So as i noted, adding back several L of base water isnt going to cut it for use with the RO water? say 10% of the final volume?


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## Bribie G

Yes another member pm'd me with the address of ez.
Also the podcasts are good, and go into stuff that I wasn't aware of such as residual alkilinity etc. I'll have to get nomagraph-literate by the looks of it :icon_cheers: 

Bribie water just tastes like dull slightly dead cane toad seaweed twang crap. It used to nearly all come from bores on the island, and in those days it would raise a shudder, but now a lot of it comes from Wivenhoe or Pine Rivers dams and mixed with bore water _on occasion_ but they don't say when and we are right at the end of the line for the dam water, next stop New Caledonia.... it's really not too pleasant to drink and with different mixes happening, there is no water report available. There are several water towers on the Island (which is flat as a tack) and who knows what mix is in any of them at any one time. Go up to the Sunshine coast or to Sydney and the water tastes, to us, like water should.


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## AndrewQLD

Fourstar said:


> So as i noted, adding back several L of base water isnt going to cut it for use with the RO water? say 10% of the final volume?



Possibly Fourstar but then your not really going to know what your chemistry is are you, and I think Bribie is trying to get away from using his tap water.


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