# Invert Syrup Vs. Belgian Candi



## cpsmusic (18/11/11)

Hi,

I recently had a go at making some invert sugar syrup. My understanding is that once made, this stays as a liquid (although it's really thick). 

I was in a LHBS today and noticed they were selling Belgian Candi Sugar which was crystallized. I thought that Belgian Candi Sugar was just a darker invert? If so, shouldn't it be a syrup?

How is it different and if it's invert, how is it crystallized?

Cheers,

Chris


----------



## the_new_darren (19/11/11)

If it was in the fridge then it would be hardish. There wont be much water in it and basically, if they made itself and it cooled then they probably made it from dry white sugar.

Once it cools it goes hard (like toffee)

cheers

tnd

ON THE JUICE


----------



## cpsmusic (19/11/11)

It was on the shelf (not in the fridge), and from what I could see it was hard like toffee.



the_new_darren said:


> If it was in the fridge then it would be hardish. There wont be much water in it and basically, if they made itself and it cooled then they probably made it from dry white sugar.
> 
> Once it cools it goes hard (like toffee)
> 
> ...


----------



## MHB (19/11/11)

Invert is Sucrose that has been split into Fructose and Glucose, a water molecule attaches itself where the G-F join used to be.
To do this the sugar must be dissolved in water then heat, acids or enzymes (Invertase) are used to cause some of the sugar to invert after that its a matter of how much water is left with the sugar, if its dried back to a crystal or left as a heavy syrup its still invert sugar.
The biggest difference between Belgian Candy and Golden Syrup, Treacle or homemade invert is that the Belgian stuff is made from Beet Sugar, rather than Cane sugar. Surprisingly enough there are some significant differences in the flavour, as an example you cant make decent rum out of beet sugar.
If you are looking for the most authentic Belgian flavour, just make sure you choose stuff made in Belgian from beet sugar, whether its in liquid or lump form doesnt really matter.
MHB


----------



## Nick JD (19/11/11)

I've done a fair bit of adding sugar to my brews and come to the realisation that the only time you really notice what sugar you added is if it's heavily caramelised.

Put clear invert, sucrose, dextrose, fructose syrup (even pale brown sugar) and other variables are in play that would have a bigger impact in batch to batch taste. Unless you are using way too much sugar - but that's another story. 

But a dark, red, toffee, or even slightly burnt sugar addition is noticible. All the other stuff is completely nailed by the yeast. 

If I'm adding sugar, it's either dextrose or dark syrup.


----------



## pk.sax (19/11/11)

you think throwing in half a kilo of normal raw sugar into the boil @ 10 mins or so will cause much effect then?


----------



## Nick JD (19/11/11)

practicalfool said:


> you think throwing in half a kilo of normal raw sugar into the boil @ 10 mins or so will cause much effect then?



It'll raise the alcohol level by ~1.0%, and in this way it will affect the taste of the beer, but you won't taste the difference which type of pale sugar you use.

All my belgians get sugar thrown at them. And I regularly put 10% sucrose in Aussie Lagers.


----------



## dabre4 (19/11/11)

Belgian candy sugar can be syrup or hard like candy. The only difference is how the make the sugar, to get it hard you just bring the syrup up to "crack" temperature so when it cools it gets hard. Personally I think you can get a much richer flavor from the syrup (dark), but not sure if there is a massive difference though.


----------



## cpsmusic (19/11/11)

Thanks for the info.

I've made a medium/dark invert that I plan on using in a Speckled Hen clone.

The reason I'm interested in the Belgian Candi is because I'm hoping to brew a Dubbel after the Hen.

I'd like to have a go at making Dark Belgian Candi. Is beet sugar available anywhere?



MHB said:


> Invert is Sucrose that has been split into Fructose and Glucose, a water molecule attaches itself where the G-F join used to be.
> To do this the sugar must be dissolved in water then heat, acids or enzymes (Invertase) are used to cause some of the sugar to invert after that its a matter of how much water is left with the sugar, if its dried back to a crystal or left as a heavy syrup its still invert sugar.
> The biggest difference between Belgian Candy and Golden Syrup, Treacle or homemade invert is that the Belgian stuff is made from Beet Sugar, rather than Cane sugar. Surprisingly enough there are some significant differences in the flavour, as an example you cant make decent rum out of beet sugar.
> If you are looking for the most authentic Belgian flavour, just make sure you choose stuff made in Belgian from beet sugar, whether its in liquid or lump form doesnt really matter.
> MHB


----------



## Nick JD (19/11/11)

cpsmusic said:


> Is beet sugar available anywhere?



I doubt in a blind taste test that you could pick beet from cane sugar.


----------



## cpsmusic (19/11/11)

Just following on from what MHB said:



> If you are looking for the most authentic Belgian flavour, just make sure you choose stuff made in Belgian from beet sugar, whether its in liquid or lump form doesnt really matter.





Nick JD said:


> I doubt in a blind taste test that you could pick beet from cane sugar.


----------



## pk.sax (19/11/11)

and ur point being??

btw, I was looking... you can definitely buy sugar beet from the markets and use it to create your own beet syrup!


----------



## cpsmusic (19/11/11)

Just pointing out to Nick_JD that MHB seems to disagree with him (although maybe I've misunderstood the comment).



practicalfool said:


> and ur point being??
> 
> btw, I was looking... you can definitely buy sugar beet from the markets and use it to create your own beet syrup!



Which markets did you look at?


----------



## pk.sax (19/11/11)

Can't be 100% sure, but I think I've seen them at rusty's in cairns.... ymmv etc. If I do manage to actually get some I'll report back.


----------



## cpsmusic (19/11/11)

The Belgian/Sugar Beet connection makes a lot of sense if you look at this map of production:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2005sugar_beet.PNG


----------



## gap (19/11/11)

From my personal experience the Dark Belgian Candi Syrup you can obtain, from
some of the sponsors above, has far more complexity of aroma and taste as compared 
to my home made product.

Regards

Graeme


----------



## cpsmusic (19/11/11)

Any idea why that would be?



gap said:


> From my personal experience the Dark Belgian Candi Syrup you can obtain, from
> someof the sponsors above, has far more complexity of aroma and taste as compared
> to my home made product.
> 
> ...


----------



## cpsmusic (19/11/11)

Just been doing a bit more digging and found this:

Belgian Candi

It says that diammonium phosphate is added which lowers the Maillard reaction temperature and enables the product of more melanoidans. This is probably why the flavour is more complex.


----------



## sim (19/11/11)

Ive found this to be good, right down the bottom:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/blog...ewqld/index.php


----------



## Nick JD (19/11/11)

MHB might well be correct - that it's beets that make Euro sucrose special.

But if you've lived in the other hemisphere and bought a pack of sugar ... it's still sucrose. There's SFA difference.

Weird thing is most of the world considers the cane version the superior one. Sugar from beets as second best. 

There might be microscopic differences between the two in the levels of molasses n shit left in it, but that's a refinery/cultural difference, not a chemical one. 

I read somewhere a while back that confectioners in Europe and America source cane sugar because it caramelises better. 

As above, it's the process that's key, not the product.


----------



## Swinging Beef (19/11/11)

You should not be putting enough sugar of any kind into any leffe clone that you will make a tasteable difference.
It will all be down to yeast handling.
Just use table sugar or dex.


----------



## cpsmusic (19/11/11)

Been doing some more digging and found that for the darker syrups date sugar is used:

Candi Syrup

Maybe it's the combination of diammonium phosphate, and the date sugar that makes the difference - sound reasonable?

The thing that's interesting is that if you search for belgian candi syrup most of the websites (particularly the U.S. ones) say it's just dark invert.

I actually lived in the U.K. for three years and I can't say I ever saw beet sugar (but maybe I just didn't notice it!).



Nick JD said:


> MHB might well be correct - that it's beets that make Euro sucrose special.
> 
> But if you've lived in the other hemisphere and bought a pack of sugar ... it's still sucrose. There's SFA difference.
> 
> ...


----------



## MHB (20/11/11)

I would be very careful thinking that Date sugar is a common ingredient, reading through the link above is the first time I have seen anyone admit to adding anything other than Beet Sugar.
The supplier my products come from says Contains Beet Sugar on all the four grades (Clear, Amber, Dark and Dark2). Labels on the drums I get are the same except it says Bulk Delivery rather than the small units.
Same applies to DAP; I do not believe that it is widely used in commercially produced Candy Syrup.
View attachment 50253

Someone suggested that I might disagree with Nick thats a fairly safe bet as its often the case. In this instance based on my experience there is a very noticeable difference between the flavour in the finished beer when you use genuine Belgian Candy Syrup and a Cane sugar alternative of a similar colour. The exception being with the clear personally I cant tell the difference, so would not spend the extra.
Beet Sugar isnt inferior to Cane sugar, different yes, each sugar has its merits, if I was making sweets or rum I would choose Cane Sugar, but Im not, Im making beer that I want to have taste as much like the Belgian beers I most enjoy as possible, so Im going to use Belgian Malt, Sugar, Yeast and hops as close to those the brewery uses as I can get.
We had a tasting here a while ago, one of the beers was Westvleteren 8, I went and got a bottle of Belgian Dark Syrup off the shelf and stuck my finger in, there is no alternative, it was an exact match to the flavour no it didnt go back on the shelf, the rest of the bottle went into a brew a couple of days later.
Were I brewing a light weight throw down lager or a Leffe clone, then it would be an entirely different matter, more than happy to use plain white sugar, I wouldnt even waste time inverting it.
MHB


----------



## manticle (20/11/11)

@MHB: I agree completely that the commercially available D2 syrup* does not compare with homemade stuff of my own experience and if wanting to make a rochefort tribute, I would spend the extra and purchase the syrup (which I have).

I'm interested to know, (if we could discuss this like two beer/brewing enthusiasts, rather than antagonists, even if just for a moment) whether you think it is entirely because it is made from beet rather than cane or because the production process differs greatly from the popularised methods suggested in HB circles.

If I grabbed some beet sugar and used any one of the regularly suggested methods for making candi sugar, could I actually approach the commercial product or is there more to it?

*Only one I've used.


----------



## [email protected] (20/11/11)

manticle said:


> If I grabbed some beet sugar and used any one of the regularly suggested methods for making candi sugar, could I actually approach the commercial product or is there more to it?
> 
> *Only one I've used.



I was going to ask same thing???

Cheers


----------



## MHB (20/11/11)

Truth be told, I would be guessing, I know there is a significant difference in the flavour.
To take a stab at an answer, its probably like most things in brewing a combination of factors, the sugar in question and the process. From what I have heard most commercial Candy Syrup is made by Acid Hydrolysis (boiling the bejesus out of sugar, water and some acid) but in this case you might need a 200 year old copper pot of just the right shape to get the exact flavour you are looking for.
Dont know if thats any help.
MHB


----------



## manticle (20/11/11)

MHB said:


> Don't know if that's any help.
> MHB



At the very least, it adds to the idea that brewing is a great combination between science, art, culture and tradition and something undefined.

That d2 sugar syrup is magic. To know how to make it myself would be wonderful. Until then I'll spend the extra cash (and it's pricey but worth it).


----------



## Nick JD (20/11/11)

manticle said:


> If I grabbed some beet sugar and used any one of the regularly suggested methods for making candi sugar, could I actually approach the commercial product or is there more to it?



That's the point I'm trying to make. If someone says that beet sugar makes commercial belgian dark sugaz tates the way they do, they're dreamin'. 

Highly refined beet sugar (and cane sugar) is near enough to _pure sucrose_. 

Now, if it's made from "beet sugar" - a loosely refined raw product packed with refinery byproducts - then our esteemed retailer might have something.

If I make _Australian Candi Sugar_ from Golden Syrup and a bit of molasses ... it's not going to be repeatable using sucrose. Saying something is made from "beet sugar" is like saying something is made from "malt". What kind of malt? How was this malt processed?

Guinness and VB are made from Malt.


----------



## Nick JD (20/11/11)

manticle said:


> To know how to make it myself would be wonderful.



I'd look into what else they put in there apart from heat.


----------



## pk.sax (20/11/11)

> An unrefined sugary syrup can be produced directly from sugar beet. This thick, dark syrup is produced by cooking shredded sugar beet for several hours, then pressing the resulting sugar beet mash and concentrating the juice produced until it has the consistency similar to that of honey. No other ingredients are used. In Germany, particularly the Rhineland area, this sugar beet syrup (called Zuckerrben-Sirup in German) is used as a spread for sandwiches, as well as for sweetening sauces, cakes and desserts.



^ wikipedia might have something for us there....

PS: Isn't rhineland right next to Belgium??!!


----------



## Muscovy_333 (20/11/11)

Nick JD said:


> That's the point I'm trying to make. If someone says that beet sugar makes commercial belgian dark sugaz tates the way they do, they're dreamin'.
> 
> Highly refined beet sugar (and cane sugar) is near enough to _pure sucrose_.
> 
> ...


----------

