# Are lagers really worth the bother?



## pipsyboy (11/10/14)

With the extra time it takes to ferment and the space it will take up in the fridge for however many weeks while its lagering, is it worth the trouble for something that me and the Missus will polish off on a Th/Fri/Sat? 


Discuss.


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## micblair (11/10/14)

Yes it is worth the effort. I wouldn't bother lagering for months on end. Just warm condition it, and lager for a min. 1 week at -1.5C.


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## TheBigD (11/10/14)

Im trying this method below for the first time, I'm just bringing down the temp for the cold crash Seems to be going well. I wanted something I could serve up to the family in time for Xmas it's only a coopers kit plus some extras but hopefully it will appeal to the masses.
http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/


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## lukiferj (11/10/14)

Depends. What do you like to drink. It's not really that much more effort to brew a lager but certainly a bit more time. I prefer to drink ales which is why I brew them. If you are after a lager type beer without the extra time, try brewing a "faux lager" using a lager grist but fermenting with a clean yeast like Nottingham at 16 degrees. Makes a reasonably lagerish ale I always have one of these on tap for mates who aren't into as much flavour as I am.


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## Blind Dog (11/10/14)

Try Nottingham yeast at the lower end of its temp range, say 13C. Malt bill, hops, mash schedule all the same as for a lager. Should be nice and clean, couple of days up at 18 to 20 at the end then cold crash for a couple more. Should get you damn close in a lot less time


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## pipsyboy (11/10/14)

Cheers guys. 

It's more for SWMBO. I'll be doing the faux lager in future.


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## lukiferj (11/10/14)

As an example. I brewed this 2 weeks ago and kegged it last week.


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## manticle (11/10/14)

They are if you want to drink Oktoberfest, marzen, bock, doppelbock, pilsner, pilsener, dark lager, aussie lager, schwarzbier, baltic porter, weizenbock, helles or many other beer styles.
Delicious.


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## fraser_john (12/10/14)

Faux lagers work but are no where near as good as the real thing. Brewing with the season works in the southern states as no fermentation control needed. A good crisp clean lager is great on a hot evening.


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## peas_and_corn (12/10/14)

Lagers give you flavour profiles you can't get with ales. I don't brew lagers much, but I'm planning on changing that in the future, as there are lager styles that I quite like.


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## slcmorro (12/10/14)

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: **** yes.


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## verysupple (12/10/14)

It's definitely worth the effort if you want to drink a lager. It doesn't have to take a huge amount of time or tie up your fermenting fridge etc for long periods if you brew the right style. 

You can bust out a low-ish gravity lager in 2 - 3 weeks if you need to. As mentioned above, give it a good warm maturation rest before lowering the temp and a lot of the work will already be done before you start "lagering". The idea is that the yeast do pretty much all they need to when they're warm and very active and then the cold conditioning phase is mostly about precipitating the yeast and other junk. So after you've given it a good amount of time at a warm temp and you're sure there isn't any diacetyl, acetaldehyde or anything else the yeast needs to process, you can crash it for a few days or a week or however long to drop out most of the yeast. Because the yeast isn't really needed any more you can package the beer and "lager" it in a kegerator/serving fridge or whatever thus freeing up your fermentation fridge.

The purists won't like this method and it's far from the traditional method. It also might not make the _perfect_ lager, but it can make a decent one.


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## manticle (12/10/14)

Purists can make their own beer.


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## verysupple (12/10/14)

manticle said:


> Purists can make their own beer.


Damn straight! Or at least not preach about it when they drinking a non-traditionally brewed beer that they can't actually pick any flaws in.


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## Adr_0 (12/10/14)

Yes, definitely worth it. 

Because they end up so clean and delicious, consider a few things:
-make sure your cleanliness is top notch as any trace of infection will stand out
-give a long boil (90min) to get rid of DMS. I would suggest a fast cool too, but the no-chillers will argue (probably correctly) that the long boil will get your DMS off anyway. 
-get chlorine out of your water, and don't use bleach 
-you will notice a big difference after a week of lagering, but 2-3 weeks is generally pretty good
-ttreat your yeast nicely, ie slow temperature changes and try to let the temp rise naturally for the diacetyl rest, ie don't pump heaps of heat through your heat belt. Cool it say 0.3-0.5°C every 8-12hrs,ie change the setpoint on your freezer frequently in small amounts rather than in one big go every day or two 

Enjoy...


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## menoetes (12/10/14)

I have the same reservations about Lagers as the OP but I also know they can be worth the extra time and effort. The last Pilsner I made was excellent after about 8 weeks in the bottle.

As for the extra time in the brew-fridge? I generally know it's time to do a lager when I've almost filled all my empty PET bottles (of which I have 200+), so it can sit in the fridge cold-conditioning for weeks until I have emptied enough empties to bottle a 40lt batch of a true lager style beer...


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## peas_and_corn (12/10/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Yes, definitely worth it.
> 
> Because they end up so clean and delicious, consider a few things:
> -make sure your cleanliness is top notch as any trace of infection will stand out
> ...


Also on the topic of yeast, you also need a lot more- many people argue you need twice the cell count you would use for ales.


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## Adr_0 (12/10/14)

I should also day that a cold crash serves a very different purpose to a lagering period. You want the yeast to still be working during the lagering period, then dropping out bit by bit. You should also start to drop with a few points left, eg 1018-1820 for an expected FG of 1010-1012.

A cold crash is generally done for ale yeasts at final gravity to clear out yeast that hasn't flocculated, and generally involves a much sharper drop in temp.


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## rockeye84 (12/10/14)

Love making & drinking lagers. The extra work or process's just adds to the fun. The ultimate pay off is when ya nail a good 1!


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## Spiesy (12/10/14)

fraser_john said:


> Faux lagers work but are no where near as good as the real thing. Brewing with the season works in the southern states as no fermentation control needed. A good crisp clean lager is great on a hot evening.


So I guess you make a shitload of lager in winter, lager it for 3-6 months, for summer?

Fermentation chamber/fridge hasn't cost me much, and I get to brew whatever I want, whenever I want.


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## Adr_0 (12/10/14)

pipsyboy said:


> With the extra time it takes to ferment and the space it will take up in the fridge for however many weeks while its lagering, is it worth the trouble for something that me and the Missus will polish off on a Th/Fri/Sat?
> Discuss.


Can you do a double batch, to at least last you till Mon/Tues?


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## verysupple (12/10/14)

Adr_0 said:


> I should also day that a cold crash serves a very different purpose to a lagering period. You want the yeast to still be working during the lagering period, then dropping out bit by bit. You should also start to drop with a few points left, eg 1018-1820 for an expected FG of 1010-1012.
> 
> A cold crash is generally done for ale yeasts at final gravity to clear out yeast that hasn't flocculated, and generally involves a much sharper drop in temp.


See what I mean about the traditionalists.


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## MHB (12/10/14)

In the 170 odd years since Pilsner made its debut, the beer drinkers of the world have gone from being all Ale drinkers to 90% Lager /Pilsner drinkers.
When you think that Lager is harder to make costs more (energy) and takes longer, there must be some reason why we prefer it.
Mark


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## dent (12/10/14)

I wonder, on a massive commercial basis, if there is any cost benefit to brewing lagers -- if brewing ales was cheaper to do -- whether the marketing engine of CUB et al would have much trouble convincing the punters to drink it.


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## Spiesy (12/10/14)

MHB said:


> In the 170 odd years since Pilsner made its debut, the beer drinkers of the world have gone from being all Ale drinkers to 90% Lager /Pilsner drinkers.
> When you think that Lager is harder to make costs more (energy) and takes longer, there must be some reason why we prefer it.
> Mark


It's the pop music of beer. Doesn't necessarily make it the best. 

Beauty. Eye. Beer holder... of course.


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## poggor (12/10/14)

I make tasting notes about every batch I brew. I was looking back at them recently and all the best comments i noticed are from my lagers....


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## verysupple (12/10/14)

This may be getting a bit OT, but recent posts got me thinking...

I've been brewing for a while now but only a few batches have been experimental, the rest have been (intending) to stick to a classic style. I'm wondering why there aren't more very pale styles of ales (i.e. Pilsner-ish coloured ales). I mean there's Kolsch, but not much else that I'm aware of. Is it the extra character ale yeasts give that over power the subtle malt flavour? Why is it that there aren't many very pale ales?


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## Spiesy (12/10/14)

verysupple said:


> This may be getting a bit OT, but recent posts got me thinking...
> 
> I've been brewing for a while now but only a few batches have been experimental, the rest have been (intending) to stick to a classic style. I'm wondering why there aren't more very pale styles of ales (i.e. Pilsner-ish coloured ales). I mean there's Kolsch, but not much else that I'm aware of. Is it the extra character ale yeasts give that over power the subtle malt flavour? Why is it that there aren't many very pale ales?


I'd imagine it would limit your malt selection dramatically. Most specialty malts contain colour.


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## MHB (12/10/14)

Spiesy said:


> It's the pop music of beer. Doesn't necessarily make it the best.
> 
> Beauty. Eye. Beer holder... of course.


Never said it made it "best". There are some wonderful lagers in the world and lots of great ales to.
As for coloured malt, probably the biggest range of coloured malts comes from Germany, the home of lager and they are all or can be used in lager brewing. The range of lager probably tops at at Baltic Porter, Eisbock or one of the Schwarzbier which are all pretty much opaque black at their darkest.

Lager is a challenging style to brew, can be a lot of fun but it really does require the brewer to do everything right, makes a good test of any brewers skills.
Mark


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## Adr_0 (12/10/14)

verysupple said:


> See what I mean about the traditionalists.


Ha ha, I know... put it down to inexperience. 

We'll have to swap lagers one day... that is, once I get some more experience and ditch these old principles. Or at least until this latest (first at new house) is done (6 weeks?).


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## peas_and_corn (13/10/14)

Spiesy said:


> I'd imagine it would limit your malt selection dramatically. Most specialty malts contain colour.


This, and really pale pilsner malt is a recent invention, plus needing more malt character to go along with the yeast character


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## fraser_john (13/10/14)

Spiesy said:


> So I guess you make a shitload of lager in winter, lager it for 3-6 months, for summer?
> 
> Fermentation chamber/fridge hasn't cost me much, and I get to brew whatever I want, whenever I want.


No not really, two or three max during winter and I really don't "lager" it in the traditional sense at 2-3c. Bring it up to 20c for a week to let the yeast clean up any left overs and then just leave it sitting around in a glass carboy on the cold floor. I do sometimes keg one and leave it in the serving fridge for a few weeks before serving so guess that could be considered a traditional lagering.


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## klangers (13/10/14)

dent said:


> I wonder, on a massive commercial basis, if there is any cost benefit to brewing lagers -- if brewing ales was cheaper to do -- whether the marketing engine of CUB et al would have much trouble convincing the punters to drink it.


The big breweries do not lager (ie store cold on yeast) their beers. They filter the shit out of them to give a completely clear beer. When using these methods the difference in production cost is negligible.


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## pipsyboy (15/10/14)

Ok guys.

The lager has been in my fermenting fridge for a couple of years now.

Took 4+ days for the fermentation to start, left it about another 7 days at 11 degrees then upped the temp to 18 (in 24hrs) and left it there for 3 days which brings us up to now. I'm going to use one of the methods suggested above which says to drop the temp to about zero and leave for 3-4 days. Do I do this in primary or can I rack to a cube? if it has to stay in primary then that will take up so much room in my keg fridge that I won't be able to get a keg in there and this will defo be my first and last 'true' lager.


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## panzerd18 (15/10/14)

pipsyboy said:


> The lager has been* in my fermenting fridge for a couple of years* now.


 :unsure:


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## TimT (15/10/14)

_When you think that Lager is harder to make costs more (energy) and takes longer, there must be some reason why we prefer it._

I'd be interested in finding out more about that, Mark. 

I'm still not sure why lager took off in such a big way through the mid-to late 19th century and throughout the 20th century. Flavour and beer quality explain something about its popularity but not everything. It must have been a combination of other factors too - publicity, the involvement of big beer companies that had the resources to brew something as demanding as a lager and so differentiate themselves from smaller brewers who may only have been able to do ales, even some pro-German snobbery (the British royal family is German, which was accepted - even celebrated - prior to the 1st world war).


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## TheWiggman (15/10/14)

pipsyboy said:


> Took 4+ days for the fermentation to start, left it about another 7 days at 11 degrees then upped the temp to 18 (in 24hrs) and left it there for 3 days which brings us up to now. I'm going to use one of the methods suggested above which says to drop the temp to about zero and leave for 3-4 days. Do I do this in primary or can I rack to a cube? if it has to stay in primary then that will take up so much room in my keg fridge that I won't be able to get a keg in there and this will defo be my first and last 'true' lager.


Can you confirm it's reached FG? 4 days is a long time to start, hope you haven't underpitched. If you have I'd be surprised if it's reached FG with a 5% brew in 10 days.
You can certainly rack into a cube but be careful of your techniques (i.e. sanitised, squirt with CO2, no splashing). The purpose of the 3-4 days at zero is to drop particles out of solution to the bottom of the FV or secondary. Up to you. I personally give it about 10 days at 3°C to drop the last few points for reasons which has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum. THEN cold crash, then store for 3 weeks in the beer fridge before drinking.

Sounds to me like you need a fermenting fridge


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## pipsyboy (15/10/14)

TheWiggman said:


> Can you confirm it's reached FG? 4 days is a long time to start, hope you haven't underpitched. If you have I'd be surprised if it's reached FG with a 5% brew in 10 days.
> You can certainly rack into a cube but be careful of your techniques (i.e. sanitised, squirt with CO2, no splashing). The purpose of the 3-4 days at zero is to drop particles out of solution to the bottom of the FV or secondary. Up to you. I personally give it about 10 days at 3°C to drop the last few points for reasons which has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum. THEN cold crash, then store for 3 weeks in the beer fridge before drinking.
> 
> Sounds to me like you need a fermenting fridge


I've got a fermenting fridge but it's a dead one and would struggle to get the temp low enough to lager.

I'm so pissed off with the whole process that I'm tempted to just cold crash for a few days and drink the bastard anyway no matter how shite. Learn from it (never again) and move on. For me it's just not worth the bother.


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## Grott (15/10/14)

My take on this is whether you like/prefer lager and have the appropriate equipment/setup to achieve good results. I'm not one for lager and brew bitter styles and stouts. One thing though, many a newbie has attempted the lager (as that's what they like or was in the home brew kit) and the very disappointed result as deterred them from brewing again, so sad.
Cheers


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## Blind Dog (15/10/14)

TimT said:


> _When you think that Lager is harder to make costs more (energy) and takes longer, there must be some reason why we prefer it._
> 
> I'd be interested in finding out more about that, Mark.
> 
> I'm still not sure why lager took off in such a big way through the mid-to late 19th century and throughout the 20th century. Flavour and beer quality explain something about its popularity but not everything. It must have been a combination of other factors too - publicity, the involvement of big beer companies that had the resources to brew something as demanding as a lager and so differentiate themselves from smaller brewers who may only have been able to do ales, even some pro-German snobbery (the British royal family is German, which was accepted - even celebrated - prior to the 1st world war).


Interesting link (no idea of provenance): http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/history.html

English beer was also rapdily becoming paler at the same time (maybe as glass became ubiquitous making a clear, pale beer popular?). There are stories of German & Czech brewers visitng the UK to learn pale ale / malt making techniques and using that knowledge to brew the first pale lagers.

No idea why crap like Bud, VB and (IMO the worst of the lot) Carling Black Label became near ubiquitous though


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## CrookedFingers (15/10/14)

grott said:


> My take on this is whether you like/prefer lager and have the appropriate equipment/setup to achieve good results. I'm not one for lager and brew bitter styles and stouts. One thing though, many a newbie has attempted the lager (as that's what they like or was in the home brew kit) and the very disappointed result as deterred them from brewing again, so sad.
> Cheers


Tis true grotto.
A good mate of mine did just this, no sanitation at all, dump the kit in, add water and yeast. No temp control and it fermented on the bench in the shed right next to a window that got smashed by the afternoon sun !! hahahaa.
It was terrible, he didn't even bottle it.
Fortunately he is about to return to the fold….with much ear bashing from me about cleanliness !!


On topic though !.
I have never brewed a lager due to the time factor, but may just give these quicker methods a whirl.
Next winter I will brew one or two to lager and put away till summer.


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## TheWiggman (15/10/14)

Shame to hear pipsyboy. I agree that I wouldn't attempt a lager without either very cold temps or a fridge. I have one bung fridge which is only used for ales. The method you're trying is 'advanced' I suppose, as you can make a decent lager without all the faffing about as long as you leave it for a long time. 
I love me a good lager as much as a stout - in fact I have one of each on tap at the moment - and enjoy the hell out of them when done right. I think if you limit yourself to ales, you're missing out on a lot of different beer styles (and challenges) out there. That said, there are so many ale styles that it's not like you are really that limited. 
Worth it? After half a day mowing a dusty lawn in 40°C heat, sweat beading off the brow with the BBQ sizzling... hell yeah it's worth it.


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## Tahoose (15/10/14)

The only lager I did was at ambient temps with s-189.

100% pils with 30 IBUs of german hops.

By the time I finished the keg (3-4 Months) it was glorious, definitely hit its straps after about 8 weeks.


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## pipsyboy (15/10/14)

TheWiggman said:


> Shame to hear pipsyboy. I agree that I wouldn't attempt a lager without either very cold temps or a fridge. I have one bung fridge which is only used for ales. The method you're trying is 'advanced' I suppose, as you can make a decent lager without all the faffing about as long as you leave it for a long time.
> I love me a good lager as much as a stout - in fact I have one of each on tap at the moment - and enjoy the hell out of them when done right. I think if you limit yourself to ales, you're missing out on a lot of different beer styles (and challenges) out there. That said, there are so many ale styles that it's not like you are really that limited.
> Worth it? After half a day mowing a dusty lawn in 40°C heat, sweat beading off the brow with the BBQ sizzling... hell yeah it's worth it.


Mate, it's more that I'm pissed off at how much it's tying up my equipment. I like a good lager as much as I like a good ale or stout. 

I will definitely be making lagers, just not as involved as this one. 

Anyway. Just took a reading and it was 1005. Guessing it hasn't got much farther to go. Og was 1032. It is as a fresh wort kit with no indication of starting or finishing grav.


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## indica86 (15/10/14)

The brulosophy method works very well.
I have tried it and brewed a cracker of a clean and crisp Saaz / Citra lager. Also a Julebryg.
The first is long gone with the Julebryg awaiting Christmas.


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## TimT (16/10/14)

_No idea why crap like Bud, VB and (IMO the worst of the lot) Carling Black Label became near ubiquitous though_

Another piece of the puzzle is the mass market technique of commodification - taking out all the offensive parts of a product to appeal to more consumers. Hop flavour and smell is kind of divisive - so, cut back on the hops. Esters don't always appeal, and can be unpredictable - so lagers, with their low, clean fermentations, are preferred. Also, the attempt to appeal to different markets - soft drink (hence the high carbonation and the lack of body in megabrews - I remember reading how at one point an American company tried to perfect a translucent beer. Beer without the beer!) and wine (CUB research back in the 70s found that one of their drinks - can't remember which one - appealed to women in the suburbs because it was seen as light and like wine, good for serving at dinners).

So, make the product more bland and generic so it can be all things to all people - or as close to that as possible.


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## menoetes (16/10/14)

Too true, too true.

Make the lager as bland and inoffensive as white bread and maybe it will be just as popular - it's a screwy idea but you can kinda see how the marketing department made their way to it. Well anyone who has had fresh homebaked bread will tell you just how crap generic sliced white is.

...and if you think I'm going OT think of that last sentence as a metaphor. h34r:


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## Weizguy (16/10/14)

manticle said:


> They are if you want to drink Oktoberfest, marzen, bock, doppelbock, pilsner, pilsener, dark lager, aussie lager, schwarzbier, baltic porter, weizenbock, helles or many other beer styles.
> Delicious.


Weizenbock? That's definitely an ale, but stlil very much worth brewing and drinking.


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## Blind Dog (16/10/14)

menoetes said:


> Too true, too true.
> 
> Make the lager as bland and inoffensive as white bread and maybe it will be just as popular - it's a screwy idea but you can kinda see how the marketing department made their way to it. Well anyone who has had fresh homebaked bread will tell you just how crap generic sliced white is.
> 
> ...and if you think I'm going OT think of that last sentence as a metaphor. h34r:


It's not just lager though. The abomination that is 'smooth flow' English bitter is just the same - generic , flavourless and appeals to the lowest common denominator.

At least standard white bread has the dubious advantage of being cheap. Crap beer is the same price as much better options. Eg local Dans had TED on special recently at $78 for 2 cartons. Next to it was Bitburger at $38 a carton. Not exactly craft beer, but a classic nonetheless


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## Eagleburger (16/10/14)

I won't feel under 18degC for the next 6 months. So everything is brewed in temp controlled freezer. bbesides the initial fermentation temp difference and extra two weeks sitting in the garage at ambient , all beers are brewed the same.

changing the setting on the stc for a lager worth it? **** yeh, even the ones that taste like water. 

Having different beer is great.I never tire of any.


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## manticle (16/10/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Weizenbock? That's definitely an ale, but stlil very much worth brewing and drinking.



Indeed. Mistake entirely mine.

My point stands though - the world of lager does not need to be limited to insipid commercial mass market swill and I die a little inside when people who should know this continually refer to 'lager' as a single style of beer. So many delicious beers - some hearty and robust, others delicate and subtle.


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## Tahoose (16/10/14)

Funny how when you hear lager you think of completely different things for example if I said crown lager the majority here would probably feel uncomfortable and angry with the crap which is called a lager.

Where as, if I said German lager, we would probably all start speculating on the very fine distinctive beer that it is, and how it just proves that the skill that goes into brewing an otherwise simple beer. Truly makes it what it is.

I think the common theme here back on topic, is that if you like drinking lagers. Then they are definitely worth the time and effort.


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## pist (16/10/14)

Yes. Theres just as much to appreciate in a well made lager as a big hop IPA.
Lagers are much less forgiving with sloppy management of fermentation temperatures. These beers really teach you how important it is to control fermentation/fermentation temps, and I believe, can make you a much better brewer as they arm you with experience and knowledge on how best to control the fermentation process to achieve a nice clean, crisp beer. This can go a long way to even improving your ales.


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## Weizguy (16/10/14)

my 2 cents here.
I believe that a fine Czech Pils or even a Czech dark are among the best beers I have ever tasted.
Yeah, I admit I love a good pils. Complex, hoppy and malty, yet delicate and balanced and perfumed.

You just can't make a beer like that with ale techniques, and if you can, I need you to tell me how, now.
It's been too long since I made one of those, and I can still remember how it tasted.


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## fletcher (16/10/14)

yes they are worth the bother


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