# Mangrove Jack Craft Series Yeasts



## sp0rk

Has anyone gotten their hands on any of Mangrove Jack's new Craft Series yeasts?
I may have gotten a hold of a packet of the "Burton Union" British Ale yeast...

*ninja edit*
I forgot to mention, I've just pitched it on top of a Fullers London Pride clone


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## Barry

I have tried their Saison yeast. Fermented from 1.050 to 1.002. While still young it tastes similar (not identical) to Saison Belle yeast.
Some tartness but certainly a Saison.


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## HBHB

Scored some of the first trial batches that came through. I have tried the West Coast Ale yeast, Burton and the Newcastle Dark Ale ones.

so far so good.

The west coast pitched into a 1.075 wort with a couple of packs took off like a rocket, attenuated out well and flocc'd nicely, nice dry finish, clean.

The Burton was a bit of an animal. Thought it'd climb out of the airlock and top dress the back yard for me. Had a taste at 3 weeks and was nice, dry finish but with some slight esters (pear) enough for the style.

The Newcastle is still fermenting. Wasn't quite the greyhound the Burton was. Expecting it to finish with a fairly full body in an English Brown.

Will be pitching the Cider one into a fresh Strawberry and Pear cider this weekend.

Martin





sp0rk said:


> Has anyone gotten their hands on any of Mangrove Jack's new Craft Series yeasts?
> I may have gotten a hold of a packet of the "Burton Union" British Ale yeast...
> 
> *ninja edit*
> I forgot to mention, I've just pitched it on top of a Fullers London Pride clone


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## sp0rk

I kegged the London Pride clone yesterday, so hopefully i'll give it a quick force carb this afternoon and give it a try
it was a monster and fully fermented out in under 4 days at 18 degrees
i did raise it up to 21 for 2 days just in case for a D rest, then another 2 days CC at 2 degrees and it was smelling amazing yesterday

i rinsed the yeast cake and have it chillin in my keg fridge, will try and grab some more grain in the next few weeks to do an ESB with it too


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## AndrewQLD

Pitched the Bavarian Wheat yesterday at 22°, it's a bit of a monster as well as it climbed out the airlock this morning, smells sensational.


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## AndrewQLD

AndrewQLD said:


> Pitched the Bavarian Wheat yesterday at 22°, it's a bit of a monster as well as it climbed out the airlock this morning, smells sensational.


I've been drinking this Weizen for a few days now and I think this is a very exceptional yeast.
I brewed my standard Wheat beer recipe of 50/50 wheat malt and Pilsner malt and changed my usual mash schedule to a very basic mash of 60 minutes @ 65c so I could really get an idea of the esters that this yeast would give. Fermentation started at 1.051 and finished at 1.010.
I get a lovely sweet flavour up front that is balanced by a slightly tart finish, very slight clove on the nose and a slight banana aroma at the finish along with a subtle spiciness.
Fermented quite quickly at 22c and I was actually drinking this 7 days after brew day, it's cleared a bit since then (day 14) with only a protein haze left although the flavours and aromas are still as good as on day one.

I'll be using this yeast again without a doubt.


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## wbosher

Any updates from anyone else that used this back in April? Just wondering if you've had a taste yet.

Looking at doing an English Pale Ale/Bitter and using the "British Ale" or "Burton Union". I've just stumbled across these yeasts only 10 minutes ago, never heard of them until now. Worth a shot you reckon?


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## sp0rk

I'm very happy with my Fuller's London Pride clone using the burton yeast
lovely and sweet and quite malty
fully fermented out in 4 days at 20c


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## doon

Where is this yeast available?


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## sp0rk

the owner of my LHBS gave it to me to test out for him
I don't think it's actually available yet


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## wbosher

My LHBS has it advertised on their web page so it must be.


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## Lecterfan

I'm loving the look of some of these yeasts. Keen to try some of the pommy ones after some of the discussions on Jim's BK.

Anyone found out anything more about general release etc? The website still says "nearly ready" to be released...


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## Beersuit

They have definatly been released. 

I've tried all but a few now the US west coast is a nice yeast it reminds me of the Bry97. I also used the Newcastle dark on a porter that is drinking very well. 

At the moment I'm fermenting a saison on the Belgian yeast at 26 and a pilsner on the bohemian pilsner at 12. 

I didn't like the workhorse yeast it seemed to stall on 2 batches at 1.020 fermenting at 17 which is inside it's temp range. Im still trying to wake it up to get it to drop a bit more. I also thought the Burton union was a little too estery even when fermented at 18. 

I'd like to know who made this range for them to get a little more insite into the strains.


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## Lecterfan

Thanks for the feedback! The .pdf on the site is pretty good for info and specs etc.

When you say the Burton was too estery, in what way? I'm not always a fan of 'neutral' yeasts - I like yeasts that contribute something to the beer, or that push a particular mouthfeel or whatever (and it's rare that I ferment an English yeast much lower than 20c - especially as of day two or three into the ferment)...

I'm just excited that the range of English-style yeasts has been expanded in dry form.

Let me/us know how the Belgian works out also...is it a different strain altogether to T58 etc?

I can't believe how little splash these yeasts have made (or at least that I've noticed) compared to the Bry97 and Belle Saison releases.

Edit: the description of the Belgian sounds similar to the descriptions of T58. There was talk of a few suspected double ups on Jims BK also.


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## Beersuit

I guess the flavour of the Burton yeast was a little too big for my liking. I did a split batch of TT landlord with it and 1469 and it seemed to over power the beer to an extent I didn't like. The 1469 won hands down. 

I know of other people using it in milds and rave about it though. Maybe it's just not to my taste.


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## AndrewQLD

The belgian Ale is a beast, my last Belgian started at 1.077 and finished at 1.004 and tasted very nice.


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## wbosher

Beersuit said:


> I guess the flavour of the Burton yeast was a little too big for my liking. I did a split batch of TT landlord with it and 1469 and it seemed to over power the beer to an extent I didn't like. The 1469 won hands down.
> 
> I know of other people using it in milds and rave about it though. Maybe it's just not to my taste.


I did an ESB with the Burton yeast and thought it was very nice. I had to bottle condition for a _very_ long time before it was nice though, although that probably had more to do with the very cold temperature than anything else, just wouldn't carb up.

I've got Smurto's English Pale Ale fermenting ATM, I used the British Ale yeast (M07) so quite keen to taste that in a few weeks.


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## JasonP

HBHB said:


> Scored some of the first trial batches that came through. I have tried the West Coast Ale yeast, Burton and the Newcastle Dark Ale ones.
> 
> so far so good.
> 
> The west coast pitched into a 1.075 wort with a couple of packs took off like a rocket, attenuated out well and flocc'd nicely, nice dry finish, clean.
> 
> The Burton was a bit of an animal. Thought it'd climb out of the airlock and top dress the back yard for me. Had a taste at 3 weeks and was nice, dry finish but with some slight esters (pear) enough for the style.
> 
> The Newcastle is still fermenting. Wasn't quite the greyhound the Burton was. Expecting it to finish with a fairly full body in an English Brown.
> 
> Will be pitching the Cider one into a fresh Strawberry and Pear cider this weekend.
> 
> Martin


How did the Brown Ale turn out? I've been given a pack of the Newcastle Darl Ale and thinking of brewing a brown ale. Was it a low attenuator?


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## Lecterfan

Hey wbosher keep us informed of how it goes.

AndrewQld - what sort of 'Belgiany' flavours did you get from it? Different to T58 do you think? Would it work in a Dark Strong Ale?


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## AndrewQLD

It's finished dry, acidic/tart and peppery, totally different from T-58 as the flavours are more intense, I've got some alcohol warmth going on as well which is not surprising.
The PDF below has the full range and descriptions which are pretty accurate when compared to the 4 yeasts i have used so far.

View attachment MJ_Craft_Series__A5_Yeast_Booklet.pdf


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## QldKev

I've tried a couple of the yeasts so far, and have some more beer on one now.

*West Coast.*
The first generation was put onto a Citra IPA. I'd brewed 4 x cubes of this and the other 3 cubes had been done on US-05, so I was really interested in this. It took off like a rocket, and blew it's krauzen load into my fermenting fridge. It finished out pretty quick, but I still left of for a few extra days. It floc'd out really clean. On tasting the beer, not impressed. Whilst it was clean tasting with no yeast byproducts, the hop aroma was completely gone. It also attenuated a lot more than US-5 leaving the beer dry and very bitter. I then split the yeast cake and fired up 2 more batches, I kept these at 16.5c to help keep the krauzen monster down, but they still made a mess. The resulting beer was not as dry as the first one, but still lacked any considerable aroma.

Last weekend I went to a mates place who had fermented my house beer, a MID APA (borrowed a couple of cubes from me) and who also had used West Coast. This is a beer I have brewed over 100 times. The beer was barely drinkable, with an extreme attenuation level and very bitter, with no aroma.

If I was brewing for this yeast I could change the mash to suit and attempt to leave some body in the beer, but with the issue of the aroma I won't be using it again.


*B**urton Union*
I pitched this onto a Golden Ale at 17.5c. Good sized krauzen without being overly aggressive, and smelt really nice during the ferment. I'd recently made the same recipe and fermented on US-05 so the comparison was expected to be very different. On tasting I picked up some esters which I enjoyed in the beer, but the big note was the caramel. It was quite there for 6% Crystal Med. Over a couple of weeks in the keg I found the caramel subsided a bit and the beer became more dry.

I'm currently brewing a Brown Ale on the yeast and am looking forward to it. This is on my to use again list, and has made me want to the the British Ale yeast.


*Work Horse *
I've heard good reviews that this may be an US-05 alternative, and have a packet currently fermenting an Aussie Gold.


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## rehabs_for_quitters

I had the same experience with the West Coast and British Ale it ruined 60L of beer, first brew was rehydrated west coast then did a re brew and pitched some slurry and it got drier and drier to the point of undrinkable, then did same recipe again with the British Ale, suffice to say I won't be using any more of there yeasts on the experience I have had, It all seems to finish way to dry for my liking I prefer my beer wet


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## Lecterfan

Can I ask what mash temps were you using Kev? I've only used the *Burton Union* yeast and it's only been in the keg a few days. I mashed at 67c with a rest at 72c then mahout at 77c. I only got 62% attenuation from it (recipe had 4.5% caraaroma and 4.5% biscuit). I must say, it tastes and smells _very_ nice so far, but I was a bit surprised as it gets a 4/5 attenuation rating in the literature. I will try it at 66c next time, or maybe include a lower step. I would have thought 1.016 (OG 1.053) would have been achievable.

Still, I will report back upon tasting and further experimentation. Next off is the British Ale yeast into an IPA. 

I don't care if they are high or low attenuators, just what they taste like. If they throw good flavours then the rest of brew can be designed around their other characteristics. It's early days with these yeasts.


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## Kingbrownbrewing

I met the rep for these guys at Melbourne good beer week earlier this year and he gave me a sample pack (he was the funniest cuzzy bro you have ever met).

I can not say a bad word about any of these yeasts, and I have almost used them all.

The burton union was the yeast I used in the brown ale that took out the BABBs mini comp the other week.

Just wish you could buy them somewhere.... Does anyone know who stocks them in Bris?


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## Lecterfan

...and found the attenuation fine on the Burton Union yeast? 

I notice the National HB sponsor has them listed, I'll be buying a few more via post if the rest have good flavours and results like the above are being found.


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## Batz

I noticed Gympie Home Brew has them, I'm going stop by next time I'm in town and give a couple a go.

Batz


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## HBHB

JasonP said:


> How did the Brown Ale turn out? I've been given a pack of the Newcastle Darl Ale and thinking of brewing a brown ale. Was it a low attenuator?


Sorry Jason, i missed this one.

It turned out pretty well actually, nice subtle ester profile, not over the top. Easy session beer actually. Took about 8 days from memory and left a nice residual maltiness / slight sweetness as i was aiming for.

Will be puting down a Belgian golden strong this weekend on the Belgian one again. It's a cracker, finishes them up nice and dry.

Overall, most people have had a pretty strong, positive response to the range.

Martin


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## QldKev

The Golden ale was a 55/5, 62/35, 72/25, 77/5. It's a mash schedule I use often. 

The homebrew shop up here has the full range of the Mangrove Jack yeasts.


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## RobB

I have been following reviews of these yeasts on US and UK forums as well. I have seen comparisons made of the Bavarian Wheat to 3638 and the Burton Union to 1275 (Thames Valley, reputedly a Brakspear yeast).

It would be great if these dry yeasts were in those respective ballparks.

Has anyone found these in Perth yet?


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## mahonya1

King Brown Brewing said:


> I met the rep for these guys at Melbourne good beer week earlier this year and he gave me a sample pack (he was the funniest cuzzy bro you have ever met).
> 
> I can not say a bad word about any of these yeasts, and I have almost used them all.
> 
> The burton union was the yeast I used in the brown ale that took out the BABBs mini comp the other week.
> 
> Just wish you could buy them somewhere.... Does anyone know who stocks them in Bris?


Mike's Homebrew in Beenleigh stocks them.


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## Dementedchook

I've got something fermenting away with the Burton union yeast now. I pitched on sunday morning, and the temp has been consistent around 18 since then. I'm only just getting krausen now. Holy lag time batman! Think next time I'll try the dark ale yeast, I've read that tends to go off like a rocket.


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## RobB

Brewcraft shops have started stocking these yeasts in Perth (and I assume nationally). I picked up the M20 Bavarian Wheat and M79Burton Union today. Now, if I could just find time to brew........

I'll try the M20 first as I have heard that it is quite different to WB-06 and Munich. To me, a proper weizen yeast is the holy grail of dry yeast. Here's hoping.


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## Bribie G

Sponsor National Home Brew stock the range.


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## Lakey

King Brown Brewing said:


> I met the rep for these guys at Melbourne good beer week earlier this year and he gave me a sample pack (he was the funniest cuzzy bro you have ever met).
> 
> I can not say a bad word about any of these yeasts, and I have almost used them all.
> 
> The burton union was the yeast I used in the brown ale that took out the BABBs mini comp the other week.
> 
> Just wish you could buy them somewhere.... Does anyone know who stocks them in Bris?


The homebrew shop at strathpine sells them.


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## mje1980

Burton union sounds interesting. I've never liked the beers I've made with s04, though it'd be great to get a character filled uk ale with a dry yeast. I really like the liquid burton strains but I haven't had success with consistency. Some beers are sensational, others are a bit too estery, even with near identical ferments. I just can't seem to figure out the conditions they like. Most other uk strains I'm very happy with, just the burton strains seem tricky for me. This seems worth a shot though. Will keep an eye on this thread.


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## wbosher

I've made a couple of ESBs with MJ Burton yeast, and it turned out quite nice.


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## mje1980

Put an order in for 2 packs each of the dark ale and burton yeast. More than likely do a double batch of both mild and brown ale, then ferment both the mild and brown with both so I can compare in the same beer. That sentence reads so much more complicated than it is haha


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## Batz

wbosher said:


> I've made a couple of ESBs with MJ Burton yeast, and it turned out quite nice.


I have a ESB done with MJ Burton, going to crack the keg happy hour this arvo. :beer:

Batz


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## RobB

Batz said:


> I have a ESB done with MJ Burton, going to crack the keg happy hour this arvo. :beer:
> 
> Batz


Looking forward to your report. I would also be keen to hear how this yeast behaved for you during fermentation.

I have read a few mixed reviews about its performance, with a common theme being that it's a slow starter and a slow floccer. Those aren't show-stoppers in my view; it just means you have to go in with your eyes open and exercise a little patience.


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## Batz

Malty Cultural said:


> Looking forward to your report. I would also be keen to hear how this yeast behaved for you during fermentation.
> 
> I have read a few mixed reviews about its performance, with a common theme being that it's a slow starter and a slow floccer. Those aren't show-stoppers in my view; it just means you have to go in with your eyes open and exercise a little patience.


Drinking it now, esters are quite pronounced, a little too much for my liking.

If I were to use a dried yeast for this beer (ESB) I think Nottingham brewed cooler would be better. I should have used my old favourite Wyeast 1318. I won't be using MJ Burton again.

Batz


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## JasonP

Batz said:


> Drinking it now, esters are quite pronounced, a little too much for my liking.
> 
> If I were to use a dried yeast for this beer (ESB) I think Nottingham brewed cooler would be better. I should have used my old favourite Wyeast 1318. I won't be using MJ Burton again.
> 
> Batz


Dissapointing to hear. What temp did you ferment at?


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## Batz

JasonP said:


> Dissapointing to hear. What temp did you ferment at?


19c, hey it's quite drinkable but just not what I was after. Best if you try it yourself, I've heard the West Coast is good and I have some of that but I'm just a little put off ATM, so I'm not keen to try that either.

Batz


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## JasonP

Batz said:


> 19c, hey it's quite drinkable but just not what I was after. Best if you try it yourself, I've heard the West Coast is good and I have some of that but I'm just a little put off ATM, so I'm not keen to try that either.
> 
> Batz


I've got the Burton ale and Newcastle dark in the fridge. Just havent had chance to brew for a while. Should get chance soon. Plannong on a best bitter with the Burton and maybe an old ale with the Newcastle.


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## HBHB

Have done an ESB and Traditional Bitter with the Burton. In Both cases it ended up with a very clear result and esters were fairly low key. Fermented at 18 deg C.

Oxygen used on the ESB, not the Traditional Bitter. Must say though, both of those brews had reasonable late additions of hops (not huge), so that may have masked some of the esters.

Martin


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## Batz

Ok then.

I'll chuck a tea ball of EKG in the keg and see what happens. EKG goes really well as keg dry hopped BTW.


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## RobB

Batz said:


> ............ I won't be using MJ Burton again.


Were the esters wrong for the beer, or just plain unpleasant?


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## Donske

I'm interested in hearing about what the Wheat beer yeast does as far as esters and ferment, I'm brewing a hefe for my clubs Christmas party and was going to go with a liquid yeast but I might try the MJ dry yeast if it's any good.


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## mje1980

Cheers for the info guys. I find the liquid burton strains throw esters, though I haven't been able to work out hot to control them. When they behave the results are absolutely fantastic, but when they don't they can be a bit overwhelming I've found. Some mixed reviews on the burton but I'll give it a go.


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## mje1980

HBHB said:


> Have done an ESB and Traditional Bitter with the Burton. In Both cases it ended up with a very clear result and esters were fairly low key. Fermented at 18 deg C.
> 
> Oxygen used on the ESB, not the Traditional Bitter. Must say though, both of those brews had reasonable late additions of hops (not huge), so that may have masked some of the esters.
> 
> Martin


Did you use one pack for both?. Maybe 2 packs would keep the esters down?. I under pitched a liquid burton to really push the esters and jebus they were unbearable haha. Maybe 2 packs would keep them a little more under control.


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## HBHB

In the ESB, I used O2 and rehydrated because I ran short of time and didn't have a second pack at home, otherwise at 1.060, I would have double pitched. It ended up with an FG of 1.016 silky smooth with a slight pear note, barely discernible over the 25g EKG at 5 Minutes - Notes show brilliant clarity ? from using 6grams PolyclarVT.

The Standard Bitter I used a single pack, rehydrated and pitched. Again, very slight pear and some other slight fruitiness. I used a hint (15g) of Challenger, which was pleasant. Finished at 1.010. also a nice clear beer. Used 1 Whirlfloc.

Neither of these were real greyhounds, but rather ramped up at 24 hrs to a solid krausen and were pretty much done at around day 6/7.

10g isn't a lot of yeast. It's enough for the majority of beers, but rehydrating IMHO does help, but to attempt to quantify it isn't really possible, other than to say the esters aren't that dominant.

Hope this all makes sense.

Martin


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## mje1980

Thanks Martin, the biggest beer will be the brown, and at 1.045 or so isn't going to be "big" so one should do. I always rehydrate dry yeast.


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## Dementedchook

Still waiting for my starter from this thread
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/75963-partial-ipa/

to kick off. Not terribly impressed with the m44 yeast so far. :angry: I'll give it another day then maybe try pitching another packet.


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## Salt

B.C. said:


> Still waiting for my starter from this thread
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/75963-partial-ipa/
> 
> to kick off. Not terribly impressed with the m44 yeast so far. :angry: I'll give it another day then maybe try pitching another packet.


I brewed an APA on Saturday OG of 1.047....pitched a rehydrated pack of m44 into it (first time using this yeast). It was a little slow to kick off about 36hrs I would think. Checked gravity today and its only down to 1.029...which seems slow (18 points in 5 days). Still has a way to go...big sticky krausen ring on walls of FV however.


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## Dan Pratt

Salt said:


> I brewed an APA on Saturday OG of 1.047....pitched a rehydrated pack of m44 into it (first time using this yeast). It was a little slow to kick off about 36hrs I would think. Checked gravity today and its only down to 1.029...which seems slow (18 points in 5 days). Still has a way to go...big sticky krausen ring on walls of FV however.


Hi Salt,

Just wondering what temp you pitched at and what temp your fermenting at? Also, did you re-hydrate the yeast or possibly oxygenate the wort prior to picthing?


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## Dementedchook

B.C. said:


> Still waiting for my starter from this thread
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/75963-partial-ipa/
> 
> to kick off. Not terribly impressed with the m44 yeast so far. :angry: I'll give it another day then maybe try pitching another packet.
> 
> I ended up pitching another packet straight into the fermenter. Was off and running before I got back from work. Was about 18 degrees.


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## RobB

I've just pitched M20 in a hefeweizen. Once it gets going I'll report back in a new thread, but even my rehydration jug was giving off the right aromas - so fingers crossed.

I was thinking that for the sake of a better AHB resource, each yeast should probably have its own thread, rather than combining all eight new strains in one.


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## billygoat

I used the Mangrove Jacks M44 West Coast yeast in Warras IPA. Have done this recipe 4 other times, usually using US05.
Pitched 2 rehydrated packets into a 1.073 wort and gave it 60 secs of O2. When I rehydrate US05 it puffs and creams up beautifully, the M44 didn't. Maybe I needed to give it more time than I do with the US05.
It took over 30 hours before there was any visible signs of action. It then formed a 50 mm krausen over the next 12 hours and didn't get much bigger. Ferment temperature was held at 19C.
After a week it was at a gravity of 1.028. When using 1 packet of US05 it would just about be at final gravity ( approx. 1.014). I increased the temperature to 21C.
after another 5 days it was at 1.014, which is an attenuation of about 81%, much the same as US05 (for me).
Kegged it and pressured it up over the next week.
Now after another 2 weeks I am drinking it and I think its the best AIPA I have done. The hops come through nice and clean, nice malt sweetness and plenty of aroma (was dry hopped in the fermenter in the second week of fermentation with Centennial) and seems quite dry but not over dry.
Overall, I am very happy with this yeast and will definitely use again.
The next pommy ale I do I am going to use the Burton Union yeast.


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## Dementedchook

billygoat said:


> I used the Mangrove Jacks M44 West Coast yeast in Warras IPA. Have done this recipe 4 other times, usually using US05.
> Pitched 2 rehydrated packets into a 1.073 wort and gave it 60 secs of O2. When I rehydrate US05 it puffs and creams up beautifully, the M44 didn't. Maybe I needed to give it more time than I do with the US05.
> It took over 30 hours before there was any visible signs of action. It then formed a 50 mm krausen over the next 12 hours and didn't get much bigger. Ferment temperature was held at 19C.
> After a week it was at a gravity of 1.028. When using 1 packet of US05 it would just about be at final gravity ( approx. 1.014). I increased the temperature to 21C.
> after another 5 days it was at 1.014, which is an attenuation of about 81%, much the same as US05 (for me).
> Kegged it and pressured it up over the next week.
> Now after another 2 weeks I am drinking it and I think its the best AIPA I have done. The hops come through nice and clean, nice malt sweetness and plenty of aroma (was dry hopped in the fermenter in the second week of fermentation with Centennial) and seems quite dry but not over dry.
> Overall, I am very happy with this yeast and will definitely use again.
> The next pommy ale I do I am going to use the Burton Union yeast.


Funny, I just bottled a beer using the same yeast. I was thoroughly impressed with the yeast cake on the bottom of the fermenter, had to get in there and scrape it off with my fingers, swirling the fermenter with a little water didn't cut it. Didn't like the first packet I pitched didn't go though, second one took off pretty well though. Krausen in under 9 hours.

Curious if anyone has tried the workhorse at high temptresses yet?


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## AndrewQLD

I've used it in a Lager pitched at 24 and fermented at 26 just to see how it went at the higher temps. Gives a very clean flavour with no off aromas, fermented dry and crisp. Surprisingly good results at such a high temp, great if you have no temp control.

The only downside to this yeast is it takes ages to floc out, minimum of two weeks +.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


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## Batz

My ESB using Burton Union was chucked, long, long time since I've done that. Esters where unbearable for my tastes.
I'll never go near it again.

Batz


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## indica86

B.C. said:


> Curious if anyone has tried the workhorse at high temptresses yet?


I will be when my order gets here this coming week.


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## wbosher

Has anyone reused MJ yeast? I ask because I am going to do Smurto's IPA, and use the M07 British Ale yeast. As per instructions I will be using two sachets as the OG will be above 1.050, so would like to reuse if I like it rather than buying two sachets again next time I do this.

I made this some time ago, and under pitched by only using one sachet...tasted bloody awful. Quite keen to try it again using two,

The instruction state _"As a result of the drying process, Mangrove Jack’s dried yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and/or repitching. For best results, always use a fresh sachet of yeast with every brew."_

Wondering if this is legit, or simply another way of saying _"Please buy more of our yeast by not reusing"_...I suspect the latter.


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## mje1980

I pitched the burton ale yesterday into a low gravity bitter. Nothing yet, not a speck of foam. I rehydrated as well. I just shook it up, so hopefully it kicks in soon. Beer is under 1.035 so I expected it to be raging by now.


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## Forever Wort

wbosher said:


> Has anyone reused MJ yeast? I ask because I am going to do Smurto's IPA, and use the M07 British Ale yeast. As per instructions I will be using two sachets as the OG will be above 1.050, so would like to reuse if I like it rather than buying two sachets again next time I do this.
> 
> I made this some time ago, and under pitched by only using one sachet...tasted bloody awful. Quite keen to try it again using two,
> 
> The instruction state _"As a result of the drying process, Mangrove Jack’s dried yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and/or repitching. For best results, always use a fresh sachet of yeast with every brew."_
> 
> Wondering if this is legit, or simply another way of saying _"Please buy more of our yeast by not reusing"_...I suspect the latter.


I pitched a wort onto a MJ Wheat Beer yeast from a previous brew and it fermented beautifully.


----------



## tlarnold47

Forever Wort how did the original pack yeast compare to the repitch in regards to flavour and attenuation? I'm a bit keen to try the wheat yeast, just read a few times it didn't attenuate too well straight out of the pack.


----------



## Donske

Anyone find the Burton Union yeast to be a little lazy, it's crapped out on me at 1.014 on a mild that started at 1.034, pretty disappointed, I've give the fermenter a gentle shake to get the yeast back into suspension and raised the temp slightly hoping to get a few more points off the FG, just want to see if I'm wasting my time.


----------



## Forever Wort

tlarnold47 said:


> Forever Wort how did the original pack yeast compare to the repitch in regards to flavour and attenuation? I'm a bit keen to try the wheat yeast, just read a few times it didn't attenuate too well straight out of the pack.


From memory it was very similar, except the second batch fermented bigger and quicker (as would be expected). The second beer has less wheat in it and definitely holds a different character but you can tell the two are related. I also added all-spice to the first brew; the flavours dissipated in the second beer but the clovey nutmeg aroma stayed.


----------



## HBHB

My youngest has a lager in the fridge at the moment which was repitched with the Bo Lager Yeast. Took off like a shot, dropped from 1.046 to 1.015 in 4 days, then to 1.004 in D Rest (measured after 3rd day in D rest), now CC'd and crisp as a Jatz.

Martin


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

HBHB said:


> My youngest has a lager in the fridge at the moment which was repitched with the Bo Lager Yeast. Took off like a shot, dropped from 1.046 to 1.015 in 4 days, then to 1.004 in D Rest (measured after 3rd day in D rest), now CC'd and crisp as a Jatz.
> 
> Martin


Wow sounds way to attenuated, was it a goo brew ?


----------



## mje1980

Donske said:


> Anyone find the Burton Union yeast to be a little lazy, it's crapped out on me at 1.014 on a mild that started at 1.034, pretty disappointed, I've give the fermenter a gentle shake to get the yeast back into suspension and raised the temp slightly hoping to get a few more points off the FG, just want to see if I'm wasting my time.


 I have one pretty much the same gravity going now. Took over 24hrs to see activity but looking ok now. I'd expect more than 1.014. It says on the pack it is high attenuating. Hopefully rousing will help, as it also mentions it is highly flocculant, which may explain it.


----------



## Donske

mje1980 said:


> I have one pretty much the same gravity going now. Took over 24hrs to see activity but looking ok now. I'd expect more than 1.014. It says on the pack it is high attenuating. Hopefully rousing will help, as it also mentions it is highly flocculant, which may explain it.



Yeah, it seemed to drop out fast, should have paid more attention to it, normally I just ignore 1469 and keg in 7 to 10 days, this one looks like it'll be a bit more stubborn, I'll see if there's any drop by morning.


----------



## Dementedchook

I'm planning on trying a wheat in the next few days using the Bavarian wheat, I was warned when I bought it that it tends to taste like wet dog smells once it gets above 25 or so.

Going to go with something like:
4Kg wheat malt
2Kg ale malt
65 degree mash for 90 min or so
bittered to ~20 IBU


----------



## BingBangBrewhouse

Just brewed a saison yesterday with a touch of centennial and some lemon peel. I ran with the Belgian ale yeast. I didn't find there was any lag that I've heard a bit about with this yeast. It's just cruising along.


----------



## Ross

billygoat said:


> I used the Mangrove Jacks M44 West Coast yeast in Warras IPA. Have done this recipe 4 other times, usually using US05.
> Pitched 2 rehydrated packets into a 1.073 wort and gave it 60 secs of O2. When I rehydrate US05 it puffs and creams up beautifully, the M44 didn't. Maybe I needed to give it more time than I do with the US05.
> It took over 30 hours before there was any visible signs of action. It then formed a 50 mm krausen over the next 12 hours and didn't get much bigger. Ferment temperature was held at 19C.
> After a week it was at a gravity of 1.028. When using 1 packet of US05 it would just about be at final gravity ( approx. 1.014). I increased the temperature to 21C.
> after another 5 days it was at 1.014, which is an attenuation of about 81%, much the same as US05 (for me).
> Kegged it and pressured it up over the next week.
> Now after another 2 weeks I am drinking it and I think its the best AIPA I have done. The hops come through nice and clean, nice malt sweetness and plenty of aroma (was dry hopped in the fermenter in the second week of fermentation with Centennial) and seems quite dry but not over dry.
> Overall, I am very happy with this yeast and will definitely use again.
> The next pommy ale I do I am going to use the Burton Union yeast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All signs of poor viability. I'm guessing with so many others reporting similar sluggish performance, that good handling of this yeast between production & sale is looking extremely questionable.
> 
> Ross
Click to expand...


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

I think Viability can only be ascertained by a viability test so I wouldn't claim that but handling may be an issue.
How old are these yeasts ?
I am sure the slow performance may be in part due to the winter factor. I too have had a run of slow starts on liquid yeast but all ended the ferment.
Last ones have gone off now the warmer weather is here.
Nev


----------



## law-of-ohms

Where can I buy Mangrove jack yeast in Melbourne?


----------



## Dementedchook

law-of-ohms said:


> Where can I buy Mangrove jack yeast in Melbourne?


Brewcraft stock it. At least in their Oakleigh south store.


----------



## mje1980

I prefer a quicker start, though my burton ale bitter is tasting very nice. I dropped my hydro so not sure what it's at at the moment. Bloody flimsy hydros!!!


----------



## mje1980

1.010 from 1.034. I thought it'd go lower to be honest, as I don't mash hot, and don't use lots of crystal. Flavour wise I'm very happy so far. Seems to sit in between dry yeast and the liquids for character. Will keg tomorrow and try the day after haha. Will update when I'm drinking it. So far I'd use it again.


----------



## mje1980

So a few weeks later i tried this again. It's quite cloudy, which is a bit odd but no big deal, and may have nothing to do with the yeast. Everything else is very very good. 

Aroma: Bready, estery ( in a good way ), and marmalade/stone fruit. 

Mouthfeel: crisp n dry as I like them to be. Refreshing. 

Flavour: hoppy, light esters, crisp, a little zingy. Very drinkable.

Head etc: small head but good retention

For a low gravity bitter I think it's quite good. I reckon a dry hoppy ale would work best with this yeast. I have lots of challenger so in amongst the Belgians I'll do a full strength challenger pale ale. Kind of a TTL but with challenger. Will definitely use again


----------



## AndrewQLD

Ross said:


> I used the Mangrove Jacks M44 West Coast yeast in Warras IPA. Have done this recipe 4 other times, usually using US05.
> Pitched 2 rehydrated packets into a 1.073 wort and gave it 60 secs of O2. When I rehydrate US05 it puffs and creams up beautifully, the M44 didn't. Maybe I needed to give it more time than I do with the US05.
> It took over 30 hours before there was any visible signs of action. It then formed a 50 mm krausen over the next 12 hours and didn't get much bigger. Ferment temperature was held at 19C.
> After a week it was at a gravity of 1.028. When using 1 packet of US05 it would just about be at final gravity ( approx. 1.014). I increased the temperature to 21C.
> after another 5 days it was at 1.014, which is an attenuation of about 81%, much the same as US05 (for me).
> Kegged it and pressured it up over the next week.
> Now after another 2 weeks I am drinking it and I think its the best AIPA I have done. The hops come through nice and clean, nice malt sweetness and plenty of aroma (was dry hopped in the fermenter in the second week of fermentation with Centennial) and seems quite dry but not over dry.
> Overall, I am very happy with this yeast and will definitely use again.
> The next pommy ale I do I am going to use the Burton Union yeast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All signs of poor viability. I'm guessing with so many others reporting similar sluggish performance, that good handling of this yeast between production & sale is looking extremely questionable.
> 
> Ross
Click to expand...




This strain is noted for it's longer than normal fermentation times, final gravity being reached after 2 weeks is normal for this yeast, sounds like it performed as it should.
Mangrove Jack's has a very good PDF spec booklet on their yeast range which is way more detailed than most of the other yeast brands and worth a close read when selecting a yeast for a specific style.


----------



## WitWonder

Well I put an APA down on the weekend, about 45L at 1050, used two packs of the west coast yeast (not re-hydrated) and 36 hours later there's no sign of any fermentation. If I'd used US05 it'd be going along nice and strong within 12 hours so obviously a different yeast with different characteristics.


----------



## HBHB

WitWonder said:


> Well I put an APA down on the weekend, about 45L at 1050, used two packs of the west coast yeast (not re-hydrated) and 36 hours later there's no sign of any fermentation. If I'd used US05 it'd be going along nice and strong within 12 hours so obviously a different yeast with different characteristics.


It is a different yeast with different characteristics. 45L at 1.050 is up around the limits for 2 packs. It'll do it, but it'll struggle along for a bit.


----------



## RobB

I have a bitter using Burton Union on tap at the moment. After two weeks in the fermenter and two in the keg, it's far from bright and still has a yeasty bite. I'm going to join the growing internet chorus wondering why this is listed as a good flocculator.

The start was a bit slow but the fermentation was strong and attenuation was high - it's a bit dry if anything. I think the esters are going to make this a love it or hate it strain; I get something like a rosewater aroma and flavour.

I'll be patient with this one and give it a couple more weeks.


----------



## BingBangBrewhouse

Kegged the lemon peel saison fermented with belgian ale at 26C primary for 10 to 14 days then secondary at 28C for around 3 weeks. Super nice pepper & spice flavours, which went hand in hand with the lemon. I'm making an orange peel one this weekend.


----------



## Batz

I've used a few of Mangrove Jack's yeasts now, I hate long lag times and that is what I had with them all. Personal opinion here but I'm unimpressed with them, back to liquid yeasts for me.

I still have the belgian ale which I believe is one the best of the range, but I doubt I ever use it now.

Batz


----------



## Dan Pratt

Batz said:


> I've used a few of Mangrove Jack's yeasts now, I hate long lag times and that is what I had with them all. Personal opinion here but I'm unimpressed with them, back to liquid yeasts for me.
> 
> I still have the belgian ale which I believe is one the best of the range, but I doubt I ever use it now.
> 
> Batz


Hi Batz,

I'm about to use M44 west coast for a hoppy midstrength. What kind of lag were you getting for that strain? 

Did the lag times have an overall effect on the beer profile/flavour?


----------



## AndrewQLD

Batz, knowing how you love your weizens try the Bavarian wheat it is fantastic.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Batz

Pratty1 said:


> Hi Batz,
> 
> I'm about to use M44 west coast for a hoppy midstrength. What kind of lag were you getting for that strain?
> 
> Did the lag times have an overall effect on the beer profile/flavour?


I brewed 55lt of APA, two fermenters one I pitched 1056 the other M44. The 1056 took around 12 hours the M44 had no activity after 36 hours, I then pitched another 1056 into it. I think the M44 took off some after this and having pitched two yeasts I can't really comment on the difference between the brews.

I hate any lag time as I believe it leaves your wort open to wild yeasts and off flavours, with liquid yeast straight off the stir plate I expect activity within a few hours.

I must point out I did not rehydrate either of these yeasts, bit slack on my part there.

I'm sure others have had good results with these yeasts Pratty, these are my personal findings only.

Batz


----------



## Batz

AndrewQLD said:


> Batz, knowing how you love your weizens try the Bavarian wheat it is fantastic. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You would be shocked to know that I have enjoyed the odd weizen of late Andrew.

Batz


----------



## wbosher

I have used the Burton Union a few times now, and re-hydrating makes a huge difference to the lag time. I normally don't bother re-hydrating dried yeast, just sprinkle. The last couple of brews using MJ yeast I have re-hydrated as per the instructions and noticed a nice thick krausen within 12 - 24 hours @ 19 degrees. The last one I think was even quicker if memory serves me right...

I've noticed quite a dry finish in my bitters using the Burton yeast, but still quite nice.


----------



## indica86

I have the Burton on an ESB at the moment. Did not hydrate and it came to life within 24 hours. The West Coast was similar, a fair bit faster than BRY-97.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Pitched a re-hydrated packet of M44 into oxygenated (pure O2) wort at 17c and raised temp to 18.5c during the day. Wort was 1035 starting gravity and after 24hrs it has only just looking like starting. it took for 36hrs till krausen started to form and that was only 1/3 of the wort surface, by morning full krausen was active.

Has anyone else had teh yeast stick to the packet like this?? first time opening and using MJ Series.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Pratty1 said:


> Pitched a re-hydrated packet of M44 into oxygenated (pure O2) wort at 17c and raised temp to 18.5c during the day. Wort was 1035 starting gravity and after 24hrs it has only just looking like starting. it took for 36hrs till krausen started to form and that was only 1/3 of the wort surface, by morning full krausen was active.
> 
> Has anyone else had teh yeast stick to the packet like this?? first time opening and using MJ Series.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20140126_083558.jpg


I haven't used the M44 (but have a pack ready to try) but noticed my last packet of US05 was a bit like your pic. I rehydrated and it was fine. Almost seems like moisture got in?


----------



## indica86

If not moisture then static electricity - which is what I think it is - so all good.


----------



## simplefisherman

I put it down to condensation as I hadnt let the packet come up to room temperature before opening.


----------



## Dan Pratt

I think I might contact MJ to see what they suggest. To me its seemed like static but no other brand does that.


----------



## joshF

I used the M44 in a Citra IPA last month and the usual suspects that rock up at my house just to say g'day (what a load of frog shit, they come for the beer) have said its the best beer i've made.

Like others have experienced, this yeast took a day and a half before i even saw the slightest hint of krausen. Reminds me alot of bry97. Does anyone have definitive information if these are the same strain or just very similar? They certainly seem to share alot of the same properties, ie slow starters, good hop profiles and clear really well...


----------



## Dan Pratt

Just an update on the use of M44 - West Coast Ale Yeast

I made a Golden Ale with 70% GP and 30% Wheat, it was a 3.5% midstrength ale and the colour of the finished product is brilliantly clear. I dry hopped while it was cold crashed for 4 days @ 4c.

The attenuation was 82% - 1.035OG finished at 1.005 ( was epctecting 1.008 ) and I mashed at 66c for 60mins.

Apart from the lag period of 36+ hrs its a clean yeast that floccs well and makes a nice beer. Will be trying it out on a Session IPA when I can find room in amongst the planned brews.


----------



## Spiesy

Pratty1 said:


> Just an update on the use of M44 - West Coast Ale Yeast
> 
> I made a Golden Ale with 70% GP and 30% Wheat, it was a 3.5% midstrength ale and the colour of the finished product is brilliantly clear. I dry hopped while it was cold crashed for 4 days @ 4c.
> 
> The attenuation was 82% - 1.035OG finished at 1.005 ( was epctecting 1.008 ) and I mashed at 66c for 60mins.
> 
> Apart from the lag period of 36+ hrs its a clean yeast that floccs well and makes a nice beer. Will be trying it out on a Session IPA when I can find room in amongst the planned brews.


1005 FG, wow. What was your mash temp/schedule?


----------



## indica86

I generally get a start in 12 hours with the M44.
I have used the Burton Union on a ESB and that was great.
Recently have used the Belgian Ale and that went from 1044 to 1006 in 24 hours. Finished a few days later at 1004. Light spice flavour and highly malty.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Spiesy said:


> 1005 FG, wow. What was your mash temp/schedule?


Mashed at:

20c/20m - mash in and adjust water profile
55c/10m - protein rest
66c/60m - B-Amalayse
78c/20m - mash out


----------



## Dan Pratt

indica86 said:


> I generally get a start in 12 hours with the M44.
> I have used the Burton Union on a ESB and that was great.
> Recently have used the Belgian Ale and that went from 1044 to 1006 in 24 hours. Finished a few days later at 1004. Light spice flavour and highly malty.


I think the lag was from user error - I rehydrated at 32c and that would of only cooled to 25c by the time I pitched and the wort was at 17c. When the temp is +/- 5c from wort temp it dramatically effects the yeast, eg kills, shocks etc etc - something i now know

Do you rehydrate, add pure oxygen, yeast nutrient??


----------



## indica86

I dry pitch at 18°. None of the above. Last two were done in 3 and 4 days. They are both relaxing in the fermeezer now.


----------



## Dan Pratt

indica86 said:


> I dry pitch at 18°. None of the above. Last two were done in 3 and 4 days. They are both relaxing in the fermeezer now.


What gravity and style beers are you doing this with?


----------



## indica86

APA, 2 @ 1044, 1 @ 1056.


----------



## indica86

The current APA went from 1044 to 1004 in 7 days.
The IPA went from 1056 to 1006 in the same time.
Both using M44, both smelling great.
Cold crashing now.


----------



## Dan Pratt

indica86 said:


> The current APA went from 1044 to 1004 in 7 days.
> The IPA went from 1056 to 1006 in the same time.
> Both using M44, both smelling great.
> Cold crashing now.


woah - thats 91% and 89% apparent attenuation! :blink:

What temps did you mash those at? did they have any adjuncts?


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

From all reports these Mangrove Jacks yeast are good attenuators.
I am starting to think if pitched at the right rate these would be great in big beers like Russian imperials etc.
Nev


----------



## indica86

Nothing but malted barley in those.
Beersmith says 66.7°, I'd say I'm not entirely sure but 65°-67° with a mash out.


----------



## Lecterfan

AndrewQLD said:


> The belgian Ale is a beast, my last Belgian started at 1.077 and finished at 1.004 and tasted very nice.


 Just thought I'd add to this - I thought I'd make a nice, refreshing Belgian Pale Ale but at a lower ABV. OG was 1.048, mashed towards a fuller body/mouthfeel (longer rests at 69c and 72c than at the earlier sacc rest)…and this yeast chewed it out to 1.002! Closer to %6 than i had anticipated haha. Smells great, sample tasted good.

I will be using this as my go to yeast for saisons - I like the Belle Saison, but I prefer this (so far), as it reminds me more of the aggressive yet tart and refreshing wy3711 (not at all the same flavour profile, but closer to that IMHO than 3724 etc). Cheers.


----------



## DeGarre

Dry-pitched M07 British Ale to 1040° wort, room temp 19°c, wort was cooled down to 20°c - steady life already after only 2.5 hours, Speidel airlock pumps every 45 seconds. Not bad, thought these were supposed to be slow starters...


----------



## Edak

I received a M44 from MHB instead of a US05 so I am looking forward to seeing the difference between the two.

The fun of brewing, I get to experiment, I get to drink beer, I get to drink beer, I get to drink beer...


----------



## joshF

M44 is awesome. Really similar to BRY97 i think. Really hoppy beers come out a fair bit cleaner and crisper tasting than US05 i reckon.


----------



## DeGarre

DeGarre said:


> Dry-pitched M07 British Ale to 1040° wort, room temp 19°c, wort was cooled down to 20°c - steady life already after only 2.5 hours, Speidel airlock pumps every 45 seconds. Not bad, thought these were supposed to be slow starters...


I have been enjoying my golden ale now for a few days and have to say for a clean crisp pale ale /ipa etc this yeast is even better than Notty (which basically is my house yeast) and S04.

Test bottle (golden ale) after 4 days:






Very clean and neutral, no "English esters" whatsoever.Dry-pitched to 20°c 1040°wort at 19°c room temp, kept there for 13 days, bottled at 1009° ie 4.1% abv. Life 2.5h after pitching, final gravity reached after 5 days.

I saved the yeast cake for later use:





Notice how clean the FV is? To clean the krausen ring took no elbow grease at all. The yeast stuck to the bottom of the bottle very well. I think this is even far more neutral than Notty, and would work very well in IPAs etc. Top marks, couldn't say how a dry yeast could be better than this.


----------



## Spiesy

Good to hear that people are getting some good results. I'll have to give this a go in my next brew.


----------



## Dan Pratt

M44 - 54hrs for fermentation to start. FM!

Made a IPA - 1.066 wort mashed at 65c for 60mins and I re-hydrated 2 packets at 32c as per instructions then left to sit overnight. Cooled in the morning to 17c to match the FV temp. Wort was aerated during kettle to FV transfer then 60secs of pure O2 added. Raised temp after adding wort from 17c to 18c.......2.5 days to start fermenting!

I know this yeast will have good flocculation and high attenuation but it took ages, guess it was a good test of of sanitation techniques


----------



## jyo

Currently drinking an American red in which I used British Ale. Tasting pretty damn fine so far. Fermented at 18', clear in the keg within 5 days, low esters, clean ale yeast... happy days!


----------



## indica86

Pratty1 said:


> M44 - 54hrs for fermentation to start. FM!


I do not have that issue with M44. I have activity a lot faster than that


----------



## Spiesy

Pratty1 said:


> M44 - 54hrs for fermentation to start. FM!
> 
> Made a IPA - 1.066 wort mashed at 65c for 60mins and I re-hydrated 2 packets at 32c as per instructions then left to sit overnight. Cooled in the morning to 17c to match the FV temp. Wort was aerated during kettle to FV transfer then 60secs of pure O2 added. Raised temp after adding wort from 17c to 18c.......2.5 days to start fermenting!
> 
> I know this yeast will have good flocculation and high attenuation but it took ages, guess it was a good test of of sanitation techniques


Do they recommend you let it sit overnight?


----------



## Dan Pratt

Spiesy said:


> Do they recommend you let it sit overnight?



good question.

no they dont butI I wouldnt see how it would affect the yeast, liquid yeast will sit on the stir plate for 2-3days before picthing and I have always had fermentation within 10hrs on liquid yeast..... any idea if that could be the issue with dry yeast?

See i stored it over night as the temp of the rehydrationis 32c and teh FV is at 17c, pitching that would shock the yeast due to the temp difference being greater than 5 degree's

Im starting to think it has less lag with M44 when directly picthed into the wort....


----------



## Spiesy

Pratty1 said:


> good question.
> 
> no they dont butI I wouldnt see how it would affect the yeast, liquid yeast will sit on the stir plate for 2-3days before picthing and I have always had fermentation within 10hrs on liquid yeast..... any idea if that could be the issue with dry yeast?
> 
> See i stored it over night as the temp of the rehydrationis 32c and teh FV is at 17c, pitching that would shock the yeast due to the temp difference being greater than 5 degree's
> 
> Im starting to think it has less lag with M44 when directly picthed into the wort....


I'm certainly no authority on the matter, but leaving it overnight seems like a long time. 

Not really comparable to a stir plate, where the yeast is feeding and growing.


----------



## Spiesy

For what it's worth, I did a quick Google...

Quote, from HERE
_I emailed Danstar about yeast timing. The answer was: “Our technical manager suggests that you don't go longer than 30 minutes after the start of rehydration before pitching the yeast into wort as the yeast needs nutrients. If there is a delay you could actually add more wort to the rehydration water to give the yeast something to eat while you are waiting to pitch it, so long as it isn't too hot.” I avoid having a delay by having the rehydration complete 10 – 15 minutes after the wort is ready for it._

Take from that what you will… I am not talking from experience.

How fresh was the M44 that you used?


----------



## Dan Pratt

Spiesy said:


> For what it's worth, I did a quick Google...
> 
> Quote, from HERE
> _I emailed Danstar about yeast timing. The answer was: “Our technical manager suggests that you don't go longer than 30 minutes after the start of rehydration before pitching the yeast into wort as the yeast needs nutrients. If there is a delay you could actually add more wort to the rehydration water to give the yeast something to eat while you are waiting to pitch it, so long as it isn't too hot.” I avoid having a delay by having the rehydration complete 10 – 15 minutes after the wort is ready for it._
> 
> Take from that what you will… I am not talking from experience.
> 
> How fresh was the M44 that you used?


That makes sense, my M44 was this Jan 2014 both packets I think.

Following that makes it hard to rehydrate at 30-35 and then have it < 20c for pitching temps within 10-15mins.

What temps are people re-hydrating at?


----------



## indica86

Why re-hydrate? I use these yeasts often and just pitch into the wort. Never have I had an issue with any of them lagging.


----------



## Dan Pratt

indica86 said:


> Why re-hydrate? I use these yeasts often and just pitch into the wort. Never have I had an issue with any of them lagging.


I had thought that about your previous posts and felt that as you direct pitched this yeast, it actually performs better than being re-hydrated.


----------



## Spiesy

Pratty1 said:


> Following that makes it hard to rehydrate at 30-35 and then have it < 20c for pitching temps within 10-15mins.


You could always place it in the fridge, would increase the rate of cooling - and unless it's a freezer it shouldn't do your yeast any harm.

Edit: just keep checking it!


----------



## Spiesy

indica86 said:


> Why re-hydrate? I use these yeasts often and just pitch into the wort. Never have I had an issue with any of them lagging.


Because it's a better process for prepping dried yeast.


----------



## indica86

How come?


----------



## Spiesy

indica86 said:


> How come?


I tried to find the thread that went for 8,000 pages about "to rehydrate/to not rehydrate".

A lot of people get perfectly fine results without rehydration of yeast.

A lot of people also decide to follow the advice given by professional experts* and rehydrate… preparing the yeast for battle with the wort, putting the yeast in the best possible condition, to deliver the best result they can.

Personally I rehydrate… I've spent hours making the beer, another 20mins ain't gonna hurt.


*I am by no means a professional expert - I'm talking about the scientists at the likes of Fermentis and Danstar. And the authors of well-regarded brewing literature, such as the "Yeast" book - Jamil Z. and Chris White (White Labs).


----------



## indica86

Thanks, I had a search and only found yes, no, maybe examples.
Danstar BTW say theirs do not need it.


----------



## Florian

indica86 said:


> Why re-hydrate? I use these yeasts often and just pitch into the wort. Never have I had an issue with any of them lagging.


Here is a tiny little discussion on the subject that might shed some light... or not.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/74450-re-hydrate-v-not/


----------



## Wilkensone

Just wondering if anyone has used the M02 cider yeast before, wondering what the best temp for fermentation is as their website says 12-28 degrees with higher esters the warmer you go but not 100% which way to go!


----------



## Edgebrew

Wilkensone said:


> Just wondering if anyone has used the M02 cider yeast before, wondering what the best temp for fermentation is as their website says 12-28 degrees with higher esters the warmer you go but not 100% which way to go!


Hi. I have a cider with M02 in the fermenter. I fermented at 20 degrees. I am bottling tonight or tomorrow night. I'll let you know how it went.


----------



## Spiesy

indica86 said:


> Danstar BTW say theirs do not need it.


They might not "need" it - but they (Danstar/Lallemand) do recommend rehydrating.

From the "Lallemand Beer Yeast" PDF we were recently sent from the local suppliers:

*DRY YEAST REHYDRATION*
_ Rehydration is a crucial step to ensure rapid and complete fermentation. There are important rules to_
_follow to slowly transition the cells back to a liquid phase. Careful precautions were taken when drying_
_the yeast and the brewer has the opportunity to revert the process to obtain a highly viable and vital_
_liquid slurry._
_The following effects have been observed with non-rehydrated yeast under specific brewing conditions:_
_• Longer diacetyl stand_
_• Longer fermentation time_
_• Longer lag phase_
_• Stuck fermentation_
_• Poor utilization of maltotriose_

Also in that document, and back to the OP:

_3) Length of rehydration_
_The rehydration period should not take more than 1 hour and the yeast should be pitched immediately_
_to ensure vigorous fermentation. I*t is not recommended to store rehydrated dry yeast or a decrease in*_
_*cell activity will be observed*._


----------



## Wilkensone

Edgebrew said:


> Hi. I have a cider with M02 in the fermenter. I fermented at 20 degrees. I am bottling tonight or tomorrow night. I'll let you know how it went.


Hey mate, thanks for the info I'm looking at putting this down tonight but I was going for 20 degrees too. Seems that it is a good middle ground also worried about going too low fermentation may go on for a long time.

h34r: experimenting with beer/cider is a tough job.. :drinks:


----------



## indica86

Must have read something else, somewhere...


----------



## Spiesy

indica86 said:


> Must have read something else, somewhere...


A lot of these companies will state on the packets that you don't _have_ to rehydrate. I think it scares less people from buying the product - but it is generally recommended.


----------



## HBHB

Wilkensone said:


> Just wondering if anyone has used the M02 cider yeast before, wondering what the best temp for fermentation is as their website says 12-28 degrees with higher esters the warmer you go but not 100% which way to go!


Definitely does better in the 18-22 degrees C Range. Over 25 and it's pretty much swill by comparison to the lower temps. Very estery (Fridge shat itself)

Haven't done one down in the lower ranges yet to find out.


----------



## Wilkensone

Spiesy said:


> They might not "need" it - but they (Danstar/Lallemand) do recommend rehydrating.
> 
> From the "Lallemand Beer Yeast" PDF we were recently sent from the local suppliers:
> 
> *DRY YEAST REHYDRATION*
> _ Rehydration is a crucial step to ensure rapid and complete fermentation. There are important rules to_
> _follow to slowly transition the cells back to a liquid phase. Careful precautions were taken when drying_
> _the yeast and the brewer has the opportunity to revert the process to obtain a highly viable and vital_
> _liquid slurry._
> _The following effects have been observed with non-rehydrated yeast under specific brewing conditions:_
> _• Longer diacetyl stand_
> _• Longer fermentation time_
> _• Longer lag phase_
> _• Stuck fermentation_
> _• Poor utilization of maltotriose_
> 
> Also in that document, and back to the OP:
> 
> _3) Length of rehydration_
> _The rehydration period should not take more than 1 hour and the yeast should be pitched immediately_
> _to ensure vigorous fermentation. I*t is not recommended to store rehydrated dry yeast or a decrease in*_
> _*cell activity will be observed*._


Spiesy is there a recommended technique for rehydrating yeast? I've read today both straight tap water, boiled and cooled water and no dehydration are all the 'correct' technique.. so I'm a bit lost :unsure:


----------



## Spiesy

Wilkensone said:


> Spiesy is there a recommended technique for rehydrating yeast? I've read today both straight tap water, boiled and cooled water and no dehydration are all the 'correct' technique.. so I'm a bit lost :unsure:


All depends on who you choose to believe, friend. 

If you like, PM me your email address and I'll email you across the PDF. It has the instructions inside, which differ for ales and lagers.

Although in a nutshell, boiled and cooled to a specific temp (aka sterilised) tap water is usually the preferred medium.


----------



## DeGarre

I re-used M07 yesterday, the yeast had been in a jar in the fridge for 16 days. I hadn't washed it, just took the yeast slurry from the FV into the jar after bottling. Took off like a rocket.

Next one I'll brew a burton ale type winter warmer at around 1060° and use the Burton Union yeast rehydrated as the gravity is a bit higher.


----------



## DJR

I don't know why everyone is saying poor lag times. I pitched a 1.045 APA last night with M44 just sprinkled, was bubbling away this morning. No krausen yet but certainly CO2 activity. Might have been some poor intransit handling of the first few batches of yeast. Mine came from Pat @ Absolute, kept in fridge there and in fridge at home for a couple of months


----------



## jyo

Keep posting your experiences, guys. I am looking at giving the Bavarian wheat a go next.

Also, has anyone else got some feedback on the Newcastle dark ale?


----------



## DU99

Does this help anyone


----------



## Dan Pratt

I'm going to run the Bavarian wheat to compare with my latest hefe using wb06. M44 on the next golden ale will be directly pitched into the wort to see if it has less lag. 

My current 1066 ipa that took 50hrs to kickoff ( poor handling on my part ) is after 5 day only at 1036, I normally have within 4-5 points till terminal gravity after 5 days...reminds me of the days before I knew much, fermentation took 2 weeks...lol.


----------



## JoshAsh

Currently drinking a 100% Munich SMaSH brewed with Mangrove Jack Bohemian Lager yeast...
I experienced a very long lag time with this yeast (~72 hours) but the flavour is perfectly OK and not noticeably different from other Munich SMaSH's i've done before.

Very happy with the flavour but due to the long lag time I won't be using it again any time soon. 
Seems lag is a very common problem with a lot of MJ strains


----------



## Spiesy

JoshAsh said:


> Currently drinking a 100% Munich SMaSH brewed with Mangrove Jack Bohemian Lager yeast...
> I experienced a very long lag time with this yeast (~72 hours) but the flavour is perfectly OK and not noticeably different from other Munich SMaSH's i've done before.
> Very happy with the flavour but due to the long lag time I won't be using it again any time soon.
> Seems lag is a very common problem with a lot of MJ strains


The lag you speak of, is this a "visual" thing - or measured lag?


----------



## Dan Pratt

JoshAsh said:


> Currently drinking a 100% Munich SMaSH brewed with Mangrove Jack Bohemian Lager yeast...
> I experienced a very long lag time with this yeast (~72 hours) but the flavour is perfectly OK and not noticeably different from other Munich SMaSH's i've done before.
> Very happy with the flavour but due to the long lag time I won't be using it again any time soon.
> Seems lag is a very common problem with a lot of MJ strains


Hey Josh,

The lag does appear to be a common factor. Lagers usually need 5x the normal pitch rate so Id be interested to know the Vol of Wort, Pitch/ferment temp, OG and time taken to ferment?

See my current batch is slowly ticking along and i feel Its going to under attenuate due to the 1066 OG and not enough yeast to rip throug it all, targetting 1.015 FG.


----------



## JoshAsh

Spiesy said:


> The lag you speak of, is this a "visual" thing - or measured lag?


Visual... no krausen formation etc. I am a noob, my normal procedure is not to start taking gravity readings before i notice krausen


----------



## Spiesy

JoshAsh said:


> Visual... no krausen formation etc. I am a noob, my normal procedure is not to start taking gravity readings before i notice krausen


Righto. It's not technically a lag if just going off visual cues, as fermentation may have begun.

And as Pratty has mentioned, lager's generally require more yeast than comparable ale's. How much so, depends on who you ask.
E.g. yeastcalc.co rate a 20l, 1054 ale as needing 200 billion yeast cells. Whereas a 20l, 1054 lager would require 400 billion.

Then of course there's other factors to consider. Such as the condition of the yeast you're pitching - how old is it, how has it been stored, how have you prepared it (hydrated v non-hydrated, oxygenate v non-oxygenated) and the spec's of your wort (volume, gravity, fermentables, temperature, AG v extract - with or without nutrient) etc.

If all of those factors are the same between your comparisons - it certainly makes for a more profound evaluation.


----------



## JoshAsh

Spiesy said:


> Righto. It's not technically a lag if just going off visual cues, as fermentation may have begun.
> 
> And as Pratty has mentioned, lager's generally require more yeast than comparable ale's. How much so, depends on who you ask.
> E.g. yeastcalc.co rate a 20l, 1054 ale as needing 200 billion yeast cells. Whereas a 20l, 1054 lager would require 400 billion.
> 
> Then of course there's other factors to consider. Such as the condition of the yeast you're pitching - how old is it, how has it been stored, how have you prepared it (hydrated v non-hydrated, oxygenate v non-oxygenated) and the spec's of your wort (volume, gravity, fermentables, temperature, AG v extract - with or without nutrient) etc.
> 
> If all of those factors are the same between your comparisons - it certainly makes for a more profound evaluation.


 True, the most I could say definitively is that the OG of the wort, and the temperature and conditions under which it was pitched were the same as the previous batch in which I used saflager... as to yeast cell counts i have absolute no idea. Right now I am counting cells in 'packets'


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

From MJ yeast PDF
Although Mangrove Jack’s Craft Series
Yeasts do not require pre-hydration,
cleaner and more professional results
may be produced if rehydrated
before use.
For all strains
except the Bohemian
Lager Yeast
, add the sachet contents
to 100ml of water previously adjusted
to a temperature between 86–95°F
(30–35°C). For Bohemian Lager Yeast,
rehydrate using 3.4 fl.oz (100 ml) of
68–77°F (20–25°C) water. Stir gently
into a yeast cream for between 8 and 12
minutes then add yeast cream directly
to wort. Alternatively the dry yeast
can be added directly into the wort by
sprinkling onto the surface and
leaving to stand for 10-15 minutes
before stirring.

In most cases Mangrove Jack’s Beer
Yeast can be used at a ratio of one
10 gram pack for up to 6.6 US gal (25L).
However, for best results take note of
the following exceptions to the rule:
EXCEPTION
RECOMMENDATION
Ales of original
gravity over 1.050
Use 2 x 10g packets
per 6.6 US Gal (25L)

Lagers to be
fermented at 57°F
(14°C) or lower
Use 2 x 10g packets
per 6.6 US Gal (25L


Under-pitching yeast in lagers or
stronger ales will result in extended
lag times (the time between pitching
your yeast and the commencement
of fermentation) which can allow
undesirable microbes to multiply,
tainting your beer. The yeast will
become “stressed” and may produce
excessive and undesirable fruity esters
and/or sulphur compounds.
High end gravities are also possible
where lower pitch rates are used,
leading to sweet and worty
unfinished beer
Nev


----------



## indica86

This morning about 0730 I pitched a packed of rehydrated Belgian Ale into a Leffe Brune attempt.
Now, big krausen and the glad wrap has almost blown off.


----------



## indica86

Yesterday I rehydrated and pitched a packet of the West Coast. Krausen now, not sure when it showed up as I was at work @ 0630.


----------



## Spiesy

Sounds like you're having some success mate.

I need to give this yeast a try.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Anyone got any experience on the M79 Burton Ale yeast? 

What limited research I've been able to pull off the webs has shown that it tends to produce "belgian type" esters and phenolics, rather than the british style ones and seems to have a cloudy appearance that doesn't like to drop out - it appears as though it really suffers when underpitched and 2 packets in a 1.050 wort is minimum to get the yeast to behave the way it should.

Anyone else got much to add? I had a packet of this and Notto for a British Pale Ale, and played the safe-ish route and went with notto at 19 degrees. I'm a bit annoyed, I thought I had some Windsor in stock, but found my BIAB excel spreadsheet with my inventory had mysteriously karked it, so I went in blind.


----------



## mje1980

Dunno about Belgian esters. I thought it was very good in a dry hoppy uk ales. Will use the other pack for a bitter. I liked the esters it threw, I found them nice and like the esters I encountered when using liquid burton yeast. Yum


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Bugger. I made a hoppy British ale (think 50IBU, mostly from late additions, with a single FWH addition of magnum). Lucky I adjusted for the hop-rape that Notto commits when it runs through the wort like a rampaging viking on Viagra.

Oh well, I'll know next time.


----------



## brewbienewbie

The pale ale I put down with M44 a week ago is still at high krausen, gravity's in the high 20s. Took a while to get going and doesn't seem to be in any hurry. Ah well, neither am I


----------



## indica86

I used the Burton Union in an ESB and it was great. Really highlighted the maltiness.


----------



## DeGarre

M07 British Ale 2nd generation took off like a rocket and was done in 3-4 days. 1051° to 1012° ie 5.2%. Today is day 13 and tomorrow the bottling day. Very bright clean tasting wort.

M03 Newcastle dark ale was as fast a starter in a 1038°, still in the FV. I mashed this very high temp 74°C and now after 11 days it is at 1013° and 3.3% but reached this already after 3 days.

Next beer will be a 1060° with Burton Union yeast. Very happy so far how these yeasts behave and taste.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Thanks lads. Just did an inventory and found I have more wheat and more pilsener than I thought (or generally use). So it looks like a S&W PA clone or something involving large amounts of galaxy and nelson sauvin flowers and lighter malts is in the off.

I'll save the Burton Union yeast for the next beer (possibly a stout) that's British I'll do.

@DeGarre, let us know how it goes with a 1060 beer - that's apparently over the 'tipping point' of when these alleged flavours start to come in.


----------



## hoppinmad

Brewed up a double batch of APA yesterday.

Malt: Maris Otter, Carahell, Carared, Carapils

Hops: Amarillo, Cascade, Citra

O.G. 1.050

Collected 2 x 21 litres into plastic fermenters

Pitched rehydrated US05 in one fermenter, rehydrated MJ West Coast in the other.

Will report the results in a couple of weeks.


----------



## Spiesy

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Thanks lads. Just did an inventory and found I have more wheat and more pilsener than I thought (or generally use). So it looks like a S&W PA clone...


Such a good beer.


----------



## mje1980

DeGarre said:


> M07 British Ale 2nd generation took off like a rocket and was done in 3-4 days. 1051° to 1012° ie 5.2%. Today is day 13 and tomorrow the bottling day. Very bright clean tasting wort.
> 
> M03 Newcastle dark ale was as fast a starter in a 1038°, still in the FV. I mashed this very high temp 74°C and now after 11 days it is at 1013° and 3.3% but reached this already after 3 days.
> 
> Next beer will be a 1060° with Burton Union yeast. Very happy so far how these yeasts behave and taste.


Did you rehydrate the Newcastle?. Let us know how it tastes. I'm keen to try it.


----------



## DeGarre

Dry-pitched both of them and am going to do the same to 1060° ale.


----------



## Muzduk

mje1980 said:


> Did you rehydrate the Newcastle?. Let us know how it tastes. I'm keen to try it.


Used this after re-hydrating yesterday. Fired up in around 4 hours. Going hard with krausen at 18 deg now


----------



## mje1980

Awesome cheers mate.


----------



## law-of-ohms

18hrs after pitching 2x packs of m44 in 23L of 1.060

No sign of life. 

I'm starting to pucker!


----------



## hoppinmad

Mine took 36 hours before there was any clear activity. Was definitely worrying but it got going eventually.


----------



## law-of-ohms

If nothing by tomirow night. Then its two packs of 04. Nor correct for an aipa but at least its beer


----------



## Dan Pratt

law-of-ohms said:


> If nothing by tomirow night. Then its two packs of 04. Nor correct for an aipa but at least its beer


It's a slow start yeast I have found...will be a test for your sanitation techniques.


----------



## DeGarre

Bottled the mild (newcastle dark ale m03 yeast) today and used some of the slurry for pizza dough...the bugger trebled in size!

Some of the slurry will go to a future brew.


----------



## law-of-ohms

It's ALIVE!!!

It did take off by the morning, this is 24hrs into a visible ferment.


----------



## jyo

HoppinMad said:


> Brewed up a double batch of APA yesterday.
> 
> Malt: Maris Otter, Carahell, Carared, Carapils
> 
> Hops: Amarillo, Cascade, Citra
> 
> O.G. 1.050
> 
> Collected 2 x 21 litres into plastic fermenters
> 
> Pitched rehydrated US05 in one fermenter, rehydrated MJ West Coast in the other.
> 
> Will report the results in a couple of weeks.


Make sure you post the results, mate.

I pitched two packs rehydrated M44 into a 1050 APA last night. Just krausening now after 28 hours. Looking forward to trying this yeast.


----------



## DeGarre

DeGarre said:


> M07 British Ale 2nd generation took off like a rocket and was done in 3-4 days. 1051° to 1012° ie 5.2%. Today is day 13 and tomorrow the bottling day. Very bright clean tasting wort.
> 
> M03 Newcastle dark ale was as fast a starter in a 1038°, still in the FV. I mashed this very high temp 74°C and now after 11 days it is at 1013° and 3.3% but reached this already after 3 days.
> 
> Next beer will be a 1060° with Burton Union yeast. Very happy so far how these yeasts behave and taste.


M03, again very clean clean and neutral, the 3.3% mild is very sweet as intended, slight smoke from the rauch malt. Good energy drink after jogging. I have the slurry in the fridge and will most likely brew a bitter with it.


----------



## DeGarre

To add, M03 is a bit slower to drop bright but not as bad as S33.


----------



## rheffera

I have two active ferments. A dark ale with newcastle dark and one APA with a bit of crystal. only hops are 2g/l @ 15. Used the west coast one on it. Seemed a little on the slow side as the ferment only started just now, 24 hours later. (it seems slow becasue im used to pitching active starters  )


----------



## DeGarre

DeGarre said:


> Bottled the mild (newcastle dark ale m03 yeast) today...


Now two and a half weeks later the mild has dropped bright.


----------



## jyo

I pitched the Newcastle dark ale on a mild on Monday night, no rehydration. Visibly fermenting 12 hours later and last night (3 days later) krausen has dropped and looks like it's all finished. Dropped my bloody hydrometer, so can't test gravity yet, but samples seem pretty damn good.

I cracked a keg of APA using the West Coast M44 and I'm pretty bloody impressed so far. I ran it at 19' and low esters. Hops are shining through. I think I have found my new APA yeast. Currently running through the range from Nev at online brewing supplies and have the Bavarian wheat to go next, then going to try the Bohemian larger yeast.

The British Ale is also really good.

So far, I've enjoyed all of these.


----------



## brewbienewbie

Well the pale ale I made with M44 is infected with aceto (I think). The blame lies somewhere between my slapdash sanitation and the 48hrs the yeast took to get going, it's a damn shame tho.


----------



## Dan Pratt

bloody M44 up to its usual long lag time. :unsure:

I had previously used this on 2 other occasions, it ferments clean and flocs great....but jesus it takes ages to get going.

all my beers are AG, chilled to17c.......adding pure O2 for 60 seconds then pitching yeast.

1 time re hydrated 1 packet and took 36hrs... on a Pale Ale - 5.2%
2 time re hydrated 2 packets and took 50hrs...on a IPA - 7%

3rd time was yesterday morning - direct pitch into 18c wort, stirred in....24hrs later still not fermenting ( taken gravity sample ) ...on a Mid Strength 3.5%

if it didn't ferment so clean and floc out id totally write this yeast off.....the only thing is that the delayed start to ferment creates that risk for infection.

speaking of that, has anyone ever seen like clumps of what look like proteins the size of a 10c piece at the surface of the wort? ( used brew bright during the whirlpool....


----------



## mje1980

I've got 2 packs of Newcastle dark, and one more burton union left. Some mixed reviews however it seems that long lag times generally haven't caused infection issues for most. I liked the burton in the beer I made with it, though next time I'll keep it a bit cooler, under 20c. Got a cube of mild I'm going to use the Newcastle dark with. Just waiting for a stupid lager to hurry and slowly finish so I can use the ferm fridge. Though in this weather I could probably leave it on the kitchen bench!


----------



## Screwtop

Pratty1 said:


> bloody M44 up to its usual long lag time. :unsure:
> 
> I had previously used this on 2 other occasions, it ferments clean and flocs great....but jesus it takes ages to get going.
> 
> all my beers are AG, chilled to17c.......adding pure O2 for 60 seconds then pitching yeast.


A test I did many years ago using O2 and a Dissolved Oxygen Meter showed that dried yeast took longer to get going in oxygenated wort. Do a search if you like for the full results. Also on Utube here 

Screwy


----------



## Dan Pratt

Screwtop said:


> A test I did many years ago using O2 and a Dissolved Oxygen Meter showed that dried yeast took longer to get going in oxygenated wort. Do a search if you like for the full results. Also on Utube here
> 
> Screwy



I will look that up, thanks screwtop.


----------



## TimT

I pitched in the Mangrove Jacks British Ale yeast into my latest brew, a pale ale, yesterday afternoon. Almost no signs of activity yet - for most of that time the bubble in the airlock has indicated more pressure from the outside than from the inside! I pitched when the wort was about 20 degrees and chucked in a couple of raisins for natural nutrient.

I think the yeast is having a bit of a sook because of cold temps overnight; I'm going to keep the brew at a fairly steady 20 degrees or so today to give the yeast a chance to work up some steam. If it's still doing nothing in a day or so I'll chuck in some nutrient.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I'm a bit afraid to check mine - we had a 1 degree night last night (it's in the hotwater system cupboard, though) and I'm not sure if it has taken off or even wants to.

If not, I have some s33 to cover, but I really didn't want to use that. Maybe Belle Saison at 19 degrees or so will be a neutral yeast, but bummer if it doesn't work out.


----------



## jyo

I've got the Bavarian wheat going at the moment. Pitched one pack and 12 hours after pitching, thick krausen. So far, the west coast ale has been the only one lagging for me. Though, it's worth the wait.

Tim- did you boil the raisins first to kill any wild yeasties?


----------



## TimT

No, never had any problems with that before though.

Have just given my demijohn a bit of a swirl. Temp in this room must be nudging 18-19 at the moment, so it's a good yeast environment.

I've got an attempted wild yeast starter from the same wort on the shelf above it - some apple peel and a bit of wort I saved in a jar. So it's a race!


----------



## paddy2

I brewed a Saison the week before Easter and used the M27 Belgian with a couple of hours rehydration. Pitched at 22 and then raised it to 24 and it kicked into action almost immediately. Kegged and bottled on Easter Monday. Sampled it on 3 May and was most impressed with the result. I harvested some yeast which I intend to whack in a mid-strength galaxy pale that I am developing.


----------



## TimT

Watching yeast do its thang is a bit like watching grass grow.... after the swirl one set of bubbles stayed on the top and didn't go away. My excuse is I've been working in the same room as my demijohns. Yeah, not good enough I suppose.

Now, this evening, I think I can see one or two other pricks of bubbles on the surface.... maybe the very first signs of a fermentation gathering. Damn it's slow though!

Bought a thermometer into the room - at head height it's sitting at about 19 degrees, at floor height (with the demijohns) it's just about 16, so maybe it's still a wee bit miffed by the temps.


----------



## billygoat

Pitched 2 rehydrated packs of the Burton Union yeast into 23L of 1.055 Riggwelter clone wort at 20C. Mashed at 66C.
Checked after 18 hours and a small krausen was forming.
After about 36 hours had a krausen of 40mm thick. Didn't get any bigger which surprised me. I usually use 1469 for my pommy ales and the krausen can be huge.
After 6 days it was at 1.017.
Lifted my ferment temperature from 20C to 22C for 4 days and it got down to 1.015. Left it a couple of more days but it didn't drop any further so attenuation was 72%.
Would have like a little more.
Drinking the beer now and it is very nice. Has hints of vanilla(?) and still has a dry finish even though the attenuation was only 72%.
Tastes like a pommy ale should.
Would use again.


----------



## TimT

I nurtured mine through the night on the heat pad and it has FINALLY decided to start fermentation.

The funny thing is I put my attempt at wild yeast cultivation from apple peel on the heat pad too and it has also decided to start fermentation! The race has finished in a dead heat, ladies and gentlemen! :beer:


----------



## Edak

Pitched M44 on my latest IPA 1.061 last night. First time using mangrove jacks and hopefully it turns out well. Hoping for 1.011 FG.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Edak said:


> Pitched M44 on my latest IPA 1.061 last night. First time using mangrove jacks and hopefully it turns out well. Hoping for 1.011 FG.


Is it fermenting yet?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Just tasted M79 from the fermenter at 1.012 (I had a high mash on this baby, so not unexpected).

I've read about some belgian-esque esters and I think I've got those. It's tasty, and there is some british beer style esters in it, but definitely that cloveyness (phenols) and a little fruity banana thing - not massive, but there.

Impressions out of the fermenter are good, no bitterness just a good solid beer, is this mild, should be a cracker. 

Will update when it's ready to drink.


----------



## Edak

Pratty1 said:


> Is it fermenting yet?


not any action yet. I will look again in the morning...


----------



## TimT

Since mine took so damn long to start (in comparison to the yeasts I've used in the past at least) I'd be interested in hearing folks' experiences with lag times between yeast pitch and fermentation starting.

Third day after fermentation beginning, mine is still going strong. Right now it's throwing off strong appley aromas, which has got to be a good thing! (What with the , the attempted wild yeast fermentation from apple peel, the cider, and now this, my study is a very appley place at the moment). No signs of it slowing either, it definitely seems a yeast bred for a long, patient fermentation. Awaiting the results eagerly!


----------



## mje1980

I've got a cube of mild in the fridge, cooling to 16-18c. Got the jug boiled and cooling some water down to 30c. Will add Newcastle yeast to water then add to fridge to cool. Don't want to leave it too long so after 15 mins I'll pitch it into the wort, and put everything back in the fridge. Not sure how adding warm yeast to colder wort will go, seems like a bad idea, but I've also read not to leave the rehydrated yeast too long before pitching. Whenever I rehydrate dry yeast I always rehydrate at 30+, then add to 18c wort with no problems so...


I'm planning on keeping it under 20c. Will update. Loving the updates in this thread. Very valuable info.


----------



## Edak

Mine started up this morning, so around 36 hours after pitching. Now its going really strongly.


----------



## mje1980

Kept the ferm fridge at 17c and this morning I have a small but rocky krausen. Pretty happy. Going to dump a 1.070 porter on this so hoping for decent attenuation, though I know it's not a high attenuator

The rehydrated yeast smelt a little like peach/ stone fruit. Yum


----------



## TimT

Mine's less apple-smelling now - more like apples-going-off, with a sulfur tinge. The heart breaks (may be a sliiiight exaggeration) when you think of all those beautiful apple esters that must have vanished into thin air with the fermentation. Slower carbonation, but it'll be a few days yet. Can't wait to taste it.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

On speed of fermentation/lag time:

(caveat: I had some interesting issues with a sudden night time drop, children leaving cupboard door on hotwater system open. Plus I rehydrated).

I had mine look like it had a thin line of krausen within 48 hours. It was too dark (and I have no torch to shine on the side) to tell if it were earlier.

It appears to have mostly finished within the first 6 days, with final OG to be confirmed.


----------



## mje1980

I've upped the temp as it seems to want to stop at 1.020. Bit high for a mild, considering I add a low 60's rest even for my milds. Il give it a few more days though. Not sure I'll be keen to dump a big porter on the cake if it's done now.


----------



## mje1980

I think I'm done at 1019. It's a bit high for me. It does have 10% crystal, though I did a low 60's rest as well as high 60's rest. I've gone this high in crystal before plenty of times and gotten close to 1.010 in a mild. From a 1037 SG it's only just over 51% attenuation. Tastes pretty good from the sample, and doesn't feel like it's got huge body. 

Not a complaint, just some info. With the other pack I might try not rehydrating and see if it makes a diff. I'm going to fill a 5 litre willow container and serve it through a beer engine when carbed, the rest will get kegged.

I'm not game to put the porter on this cake, so I'll use some Irish ale yeast for that. After it ferments a bitter.


----------



## TimT

Mine's down to about 1.013. I still want to give it a day or two, it might go down a bit more - it's been going steadily for quite a while. Then some hops for aroma. When I sampled yesterday I took a taste - not too bad; I think a teensy bit of the appley-esteryness has remained. I'm feeling good about this yeast now, though now I know for next time not to take it for granted.


----------



## DU99

Bought a couple packet's of M10 workhorse yeast..dumped a packet on the brew i made yesterday..no rehydrate..24 hrs later working fine ,2cm of Krausen so far ,ferment temp 18-19 C.


----------



## Edak

Mine is very slow. 8 days now and only down to 1.030 from 1.060. Its still got activity/ creamy stuff on top and when I took a sample it looks like it was in suspension.


----------



## mje1980

I'm having a sly taster of my Newcastle dark ale mild halfway through carbonation in the keg. Mild roasty coffee like aroma, smooth roasted malt flavour with only a small hint of crystal malt coming through. The roasted malt flavours seem to be dominant. For such a high fg it certainly doesn't drink like it's got heaps of body. Dryish finish, not cloying at all. Quite happy with it. 

I have 5 litres in a willow cube naturally carbonating waiting for a beer engine. Can't wait to try it. 

Next batch I'd drop the darker malts a little, it's quite dark. But overall I'm pretty happy with it and I do believe the keg will vanish.

EDIT. A further few pints have all drunk quite smoothly. Very happy. Will use again. Might tailor my recipe to get better attenuation. Longer, lower mash, less crystal, and less dark malts. I also used wey pils as I'm out of my beloved MO. Might just need another pint or two to make sure.


----------



## TimT

And another: last night I started a mead (with a small portion of burnt honey) on Newcastle Brown Ale yeast. I know this is a slightly unconventional use for what was intended as an ale yeast, but I had been looking at a recipe that specified 'ale yeast', I wanted something that was good with relatively high gravities, and something that was good with dark colours and roasty-coffee flavours. This Brown Ale yeast fit the bill nicely. In addition, this range of yeasts seem to have some nice fruity esters, which might compliment our honey (which has some light fruity and nectary flavours) nicely.

Pitched it last night at about 21 degrees (maybe a bit over); I'd previously put dead yeast in the water for nutrient; and I added some more raisins for nutrient just before pitching the yeast. Popped it on the heat pad. This morning it's fermenting steadily; a mixture of toffee aromas and light fruitiness coming from the airlock at the moment. I hope it doesn't carry all those delicious aromas away. We'll see!

EDIT: if the yeast conks out before it's finished fermenting fully I may consider finishing it off with a champagne yeast (which I've usually done my meads on before). It's looking very healthy at the moment, though.


----------



## Edak

So 11 days in and the IPA is down to 1.013 still going along by the look of it.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Edak said:


> So 11 days in and the IPA is down to 1.013 still going along by the look of it.


Hi Edak,

11 days seems a long time for fermentation to be completed. What was your starting OG and mash temp/time? ( i say this as my IPA went from 1059 to 1019 in 4days this week, primary should be finished tomorrow)

Dan


----------



## TimT

I reckon fermentation time would vary a bit. One of the things I like about these yeasts is they seem to have been bred/selected for their staying potential. They keep going and going. In contrast, the previous yeast I was using, Nottingham, took two days to ferment out a pale ale (same as the one that is almost finished now, on a Mangrove Jacks yeast). That's efficient and quick, though it seems to have less estery qualities than the MJ yeast, and of course as long as yeast is active in the beer you know there'll be less likelihood of infection.


----------



## mje1980

I smashed 7 or so pints of my mild through a beer engine last night. Absolutely loved it, I'd use the Newcastle dark ale yeast again. I'd like a bit more attenuation but I can adjust my recipe for that. I still like liquids but it's good to have a dry yeast that produces very good beers.


----------



## jyo

I'm drinking a darkish mild with Newcastle dark ale and really enjoying it.

It has thrown the dark fruit flavours and esters.

Will definitely use this again.

Also, have just cracked a keg of weizen using the Bavarian wheat. Typical weizen flavours and esters, with some very low vanilla flavours. Banana and spice, ticks all the boxes for me. I ran this at 19', so would be interesting to try it at higher fermentation temp to see what it throws.

Impressed again by this range.


----------



## RobB

Good to hear someone else has had a positive experience with the Bavarian Wheat. I really liked it.

I was in the fortunate position of being in Bavaria last year, where I conducted plenty of "research" on weissbier, the big names as well as the smaller locals. The beer I made with the M20 would sit nicely amongst those I tried on my holiday. I reckon this yeast puts out all the right flavours. I should add that it produces these flavours in moderate amounts, but that was in keeping with what I tried in Germany (there were no banana bombs). I'll leave it to others to push the estery limits of this yeast, but I'm looking forward to using it again soon in a dunkel weissbier. If I can get a touch of chocolate from the malt, it should work well with the vanilla of M20.


----------



## Dan Pratt

I made a Dunkelweizen on saturday and pitched a packet of M20 directly into the wort at 17c around 11pm - it was 22lt of 1046. When Ileft for work this morning at 530am it still had not formed a krausen making it 30hrs of lag, Again this series of yeast for me has had long lag times. I admit with this one i purposely underpitched by about 80bill cells but that was to stress the yeast. Id imagine its kicked off by now and will check with when I get home.

I cant fault the M44 for its attenuation, clarity from good flocculation but they sure to test the santitation of my brewing when they dont start up after 10hrs. To compare, when Im using fermentis or wyeast, dry/hyrdated or starters they *ALWAYS* kick off with 6-10hrs.

Mangroves takes its time to start yet yields great results, i guess that all you can ask for really. Others i know get activity within a normal range and i had read somewhere from advice on here that the dry yeast is better without adding pure O2, so i skipped that and also forgot to add yeast nutrient to the boil.....cant wait to get home and see if its climbing out of the fermenter like 3068 does.


----------



## rheffera

Just checked on my oatmeal stout. (M07 British ale) Seems to be struggling after 5 days @ 18*C. It's at 1020 down from 1052. That is 8 points higher than i want it to be given i mashed at 66. The krausen has fallen & i'm seeing yeast on the surface. The yeast looks like the way it does in the packet. It's still fermenting though as i saw bubbles appearing on the surface. I've put her back in the fridge and increased the temperature seeing as the bulk of the ferment is over.

I'm unsure if i screwed up my mash but i know my ferment volume is a liter less than expected so perhaps this is the result of my boil-off. 

In terms of the tasting form the hydro, yup, thats a oatmeal stout. Sweet-ish due to the (current) middling gravity but that dry finish leaves my mouth like the sahara is present alright. No esters noted at 18*c, if there are any they sure don't overpower the choc malt.

Ill be drinking this regardless if the gravity drops or not. Will be a good drop after maturation.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Pratty1 said:


> I made a Dunkelweizen on saturday and pitched a packet of M20 directly into the wort at 17c around 11pm - it was 22lt of 1046. When Ileft for work this morning at 530am it still had not formed a krausen making it 30hrs of lag, Again this series of yeast for me has had long lag times. I admit with this one i purposely underpitched by about 80bill cells but that was to stress the yeast. Id imagine its kicked off by now and will check with when I get home.
> 
> I cant fault the M44 for its attenuation, clarity from good flocculation but they sure to test the santitation of my brewing when they dont start up after 10hrs. To compare, when Im using fermentis or wyeast, dry/hyrdated or starters they *ALWAYS* kick off with 6-10hrs.
> 
> Mangroves takes its time to start yet yields great results, i guess that all you can ask for really. Others i know get activity within a normal range and i had read somewhere from advice on here that the dry yeast is better without adding pure O2, so i skipped that and also forgot to add yeast nutrient to the boil.....cant wait to get home and see if its climbing out of the fermenter like 3068 does.


Went from OG of 1046 to FG 1014 in 3 days, will keg it Saturday......grain to glass in 7 days.


----------



## Tahoose

Got given a packet of the M44 west coast yeast by the mangrove jacks team at GABS on the weekend. 

Will be looking forward to giving it a run.


----------



## Forever Wort

The Merri Mashers took away around forty packs of MJ dry yeast at the May meeting this week courtesy of Cryer Malt, it will be interesting to see the results!


----------



## jphowman

I need some advice from anyone who has used the Bohemian Lager yeast.

I pitched 2 rehydrated packet into 20L of 1.041 wort on Sunday morning. On Monday night I realised I hadn't aerated. The gravity hadn't moved so I aerated.

I just checked the gravity which still hasn't changed. This is not my first lager and I know to expect a longer lag time, but this seems excessive. 
The yeast had a strong smell of acetely aldehyde while rehydrating and had a BB date of September.

Should I give up and pitch another yeast?


----------



## Markbeer

Did it start?


----------



## jphowman

I don't think so. I gave it another 8 hours and then pitched 34/70.

In the discussions on rehydration I read something for safyeast that said they make sure that their yeast has the maximum reserves before drying it out. For this reason they suggest that the yeast is pitched within half an hour of rehydration so it uses the reserves effectively.

What are the chances that Mangrove Jacks don't follow the same procedure? It might mean these yeasts need a small starter after rehydration to get them going.


----------



## rheffera

Feedback on my oatmeal stout fermented with the british ale yeast: Did not want to drop lower than 1.020 after all. Kegged. Tastes fine but a little sweet due to 8 points higher than expected. Sediment was compact.


----------



## Markbeer

Franks i do an active starter with everything. Next time u do a lager, make a 2 litre starter the day before with both packs. Keep your starter at 12 degrees. It should have krausen at 24 hours. Pitch the whole thing at 12 degrees and your lager will be fermenting within the day guaranteed.

I dont buy the whole depleting dried yeast reserve etc. All craft brewers using dried yeast repitch and successive batches turn out better than the original pitch.


----------



## TimT

They definitely seem to have a lag time. My pale ale a couple of weeks ago took around three days to start (partly I think this was due to fluctuations in temperature) . My pumpkin ale, brewed two days ago, took around a day to get reasonable signs of yeast life (foam at the top). Another 12 hours in and there's a gigantic layer of foam - no huge carbonation yet though. I don't expect it will reach high krausen for another day yet.

(In between those two ales I pitched some MJ Newcastle yeast on a burnt honey mead and it took off fairly quickly though).


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I still haven't bottled mine (too lazy, I hate bottling etc).

But I noticed that it got up and running in a day or so - I rehydrated - I've joined that mob in a bag way. Not a massive krausen, but temps were pretty low when I fermented it.

It was done pretty much in a week from that. I've left it sit for a couple and it's in a cold place. Will see how it goes, but it tastes estery from the fermenter.


----------



## RobB

Has anyone tried the Newcastle Dark in something which isn't dark? It seems to have been trialled by a few people in dark milds, but I was wondering how it would go in a low gravity bitter.


----------



## TimT

_Has anyone tried the Newcastle Dark in something which isn't dark?_

Well it took like a duck to water when chucked it in my burnt honey mead. (The colour of said mead is a dark brown but that's about all it shares in common with a heavy malty dark ale). I wanted a yeast which would add a little character and be comfortable with fairly high gravities and which would hopefully bring out some dark roasty coffee and toffee esters. I can't vouch for the final product yet - it's still fermenting - but the smell is quite enticing. I wouldn't have thought of it for a low gravity bitter, to be honest, but at the very least these yeasts seem quite adaptable.


----------



## TimT

Day three of the pumpkin ale - the foam's cleared up, but only veeeeeeeeeeeery slow carbonation. This one's going to be around for a while. I think the yeast just likes sleeping in in the morning, as it were.


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## TimT

Day five and the initial foam - apparently some kind of starchy froth rather than a yeast-rich cloud - has dissipated entirely to be gradually replaced by a brown gunky yeasty foam. The bubbles have been creeping snail-like through the airlock for a few days; only now are they speeding up a bit - from one a minute two days ago to about four a minute now.

There's something about this strain of MJ yeast particularly, I think, that gives it a long lag time. My pumpkin ale (MJ British Ale yeast) is sitting on the heat plate next to my bochet (MJ Newcastle yeast). The bochet began fermenting almost immediately; the MJ has apparently not yet reached its krausen after five days fermenting!

Not too fussed about it mind - just a bit surprised.


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## Spiesy

Just pitched M44 into an APA last night.

This time round, I'm doing it as they recommend… just dumping it in.
Wort has yeast nutrient. Wort has just been dumped into fermenter (no direct oxygenation). Temperature of wort 17 at pitching, then set to 18.
23l of 1048OG wort.

I'll see how this goes, and then next time I'll rehydrate, oxygenate and repeat… see if there's a difference.


----------



## Edak

Spiesy said:


> Just pitched M44 into an APA last night.
> 
> This time round, I'm doing it as they recommend… just dumping it in.
> Wort has yeast nutrient. Wort has just been dumped into fermenter (no direct oxygenation). Temperature of wort 17 at pitching, then set to 18.
> 23l of 1048OG wort.
> 
> I'll see how this goes, and then next time I'll rehydrate, oxygenate and repeat… see if there's a difference.


i am guessing about a 36hour lag then. Hope all goes well. I will pass on m44 from now on. Us05 is my APA yeast...


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## Spiesy

Yep, somewhere between 24-36hrs before a thick krausen was seen.


----------



## Byran

I just made a couple of beers on a pack of the M44 to give it a try, same story seemed like a slow starter but still caned up the gravity in about 4 days. I had the first batch crash chilled after 6 or 7 days. I used slurry to ferment another brew and it was the same, took a day or so to fire up but was more fiery than the dried stuff. Again only took 4 to 5 days to finish. One beer was a hoppy apa and it was clean and smooth with light ester brewed outside in sydney about 16 to 20 degrees. No probs. The second was an aussie ale clean as not much ester either fermented the same. Both cleared up really good, im considering this yeast better than US05 on current performance, flocculation and flavour profile.


----------



## indica86

Side by side brews with US05 and M44 this time.
US05 signs in 12 hours.
M44 56 hours before any sign.


----------



## Lecterfan

Malty Cultural said:


> Has anyone tried the Newcastle Dark in something which isn't dark? It seems to have been trialled by a few people in dark milds, but I was wondering how it would go in a low gravity bitter.


It goes well. Plenty of malt. I've not tried it in a dark yet. Pretty lazy attenuator, but then I've found that with all the MJ yeasts that I've used so far (burton, british, bav wheat, newcastle dark).


----------



## Spiesy

indica86 said:


> Side by side brews with US05 and M44 this time.
> US05 signs in 12 hours.
> M44 56 hours before any sign.


56hours? Mine was 36, and that was without rehydration or oxygenation. 

Regardless, it's not all about the lag. The end product is pretty important, I'm keen to see how this turns out.


----------



## fletcher

excuse my very limited yeast knowledge, but isn't there _still_ stuff happening that we might not be able to "see" wit M44? so this lag we speak of isn't exactly a lag but just extended adaptation? is this always problematic?


----------



## Spiesy

fletcher said:


> excuse my very limited yeast knowledge, but isn't there _still_ stuff happening that we might not be able to "see" wit M44? so this lag we speak of isn't exactly a lag but just extended adaptation? is this always problematic?


Correct.


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## wereprawn

Used the M44 in a red APA and the M10 in a pale ale on the weekend . Both had a krausen when i checked 12 hrs later.Both pitched and fermenting at 16-18c. Sprinkled yeast on top of both too. Assuming the yeasts are reasonably fresh how is it that people are getting such wildly varying results? What fletcher says makes sense but using the same yeast should produce similar results no?


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Give 10 brewers the same materials and you will get 10 different results, thats brewing.
Nev


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## mje1980

It does seem counterintuitive but yeah, as has been mentioned, just because there are no visible signs, does it mean nothing is happening?. A few people have mentioned once they see activity they're almost done, so they may well be doing something. 

I'm still happy with the mild I fermented with the dark ale yeast. Attenuation could have been better, but I can adjust for that. I think it'd work in a bitter too.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

One sure fire way to check if it "happening" is by doing a pH test, yes I know its a black art but it works.
You are looking for a drop in pH, more acidic.
Visual signs are not accurate.

Nev


----------



## Byran

I usually check the gravity daily with a refracto to make sure its still fermenting. I also like to taste how the brew is progressing also. You notice how the sweetness fades out when they are almost done. I also find that when I do dark beers there is no thick stuff on the top of the fermenter. Just murky wort until it drops out. Anyone else get that? Prob off topic. Lol


----------



## TimT

New brew, a fairly high gravity old ale on the MJ Newcastle yeast. Pitched the yeast last night; it took off over night, and some of the yeast appears to have climbed into the airlock and left its mark there. I wonder why the apparent disparity between the MJ British Ale yeast and the MJ Newcastle yeast?


----------



## Spiesy

TimT said:


> I wonder why the apparent disparity between the MJ British Ale yeast and the MJ Newcastle yeast?


Just different yeasts probably, mate.

Different yeasts from the same manufacturer will usually behave very differently.


----------



## TimT

True, though I was wondering about what Franks said on p. 12 of this thread

_In the discussions on rehydration I read something for safyeast that said they make sure that their yeast has the maximum reserves before drying it out. For this reason they suggest that the yeast is pitched within half an hour of rehydration so it uses the reserves effectively.

What are the chances that Mangrove Jacks don't follow the same procedure? It might mean these yeasts need a small starter after rehydration to get them going._

That would explain the lag time on the British Ale one but definitely not on the Newcastle one.

Meh, guess you're right, I'm liking these yeasts anyway.


----------



## TimT

Interesting, just cracked my first pale ale fermented on the MJ British Ale yeast today. Just had it at room temperature (about 10 degrees). Cloudy (then again I couldn't be arsed throwing in Irish Moss into this brew). The carbonation was strong, and the yeasty tastes.... well, a little of the apple esters remained, but the strongest taste coming through was the same bready vibe I got after sampling a saison fermented on the MJ Belgian Ale yeast. I wonder if there's a way of conserving the apple esters and making sure they don't all evaporate in the course of the fermentation?


----------



## wereprawn

My M10 brew is throwing some pretty strong sulphur smells. Weird ! The pack states a lowest ferment temp of 15c. Not particularly strange min temp for ale yeast but could this one be an ale/lager blend? Never encountered this before with ale. Although i have only ever used dry yeast.


----------



## TimT

I've had them quite a bit, so much to make me think that's yeast's default mode. My first, failed attempt at harvesting a wild yeast (did get one, but bacteria took over before any real magic happened) had a smell like fermenting chick peas! The Newcastle yeast is making sulfur from my Old Ale at the moment (though I tried to encourage esters in that one by pitching yeast while the temp was still about 23). I really don't think it matters that much, all noticeable sulfur smells seem to vanish once the beer has been fridged.


----------



## fletcher

does M44 usually throw up a sh1tload of krausen? i pitched two packs into a 1.060 IPA and didn't leave a blow off tube, but there was about 3.5-4L headspace room (bunnings fermenter). a bit worried as i pitched it yesterday and don't want to go home today to mess.


----------



## wereprawn

Mine has about 2 1/2 inches of krausen. Might be close.


----------



## Spiesy

fletcher said:


> does M44 usually throw up a sh1tload of krausen? i pitched two packs into a 1.060 IPA and didn't leave a blow off tube, but there was about 3.5-4L headspace room (bunnings fermenter). a bit worried as i pitched it yesterday and don't want to go home today to mess.


I had a good couple of inches also, and it lasted quite a while through the ferment.


----------



## Spiesy

^ and yes, that's what she said


----------



## fletcher

cheers guys. a few inches i can handle. if it's a volcano i'll have to hurry home but i'm hoping no. i'm fermenting at 16-17c


----------



## fletcher

haha me too... "a few inches i can handle..."


----------



## fletcher

fucken hell. I've never had a yeast not kick off in 24 hours. I hope this m44 is all it's cracked up to be. making me worried. no sign of any krausen yet


----------



## Dan Pratt

fletcher said:


> fucken hell. I've never had a yeast not kick off in 24 hours. I hope this m44 is all it's cracked up to be. making me worried. no sign of any krausen yet


Mate I've had M44 take up to 48hrs to start up, results are great though! 

It's a real test of your sanitation skills.


----------



## fletcher

Pratty1 said:


> Mate I've had M44 take up to 48hrs to start up, results are great though!
> 
> It's a real test of your sanitation skills.


ugh, yeah so i've been reading. oh well. fingers crossed. left this morning and it had a smallish top layer of krausen. the fermenter was covered in star san before the beer went in. i'm hopeful.


----------



## Dan Pratt

fletcher said:


> ugh, yeah so i've been reading. oh well. fingers crossed. left this morning and it had a smallish top layer of krausen. the fermenter was covered in star san before the beer went in. i'm hopeful.


dont be worried if you get home today and it still hasnt taken off......


----------



## wereprawn

Well the M10 brew Is smelling more like a sulphury fart today. Powerful stuff. And it has been stalled for the last 3 days on 1018.I'll rouse the yeast tomorrow to see if i can get it to drop a few more points. The samples taste fine (although still too sweet) but the smell !!! If it has not improved significantly by kegging time i suppose i will just chill ,as tim suggested, and also burp the keg regularly to try and scrub the DMS (if thats all it is).


----------



## Spiesy

wereprawn said:


> Well the M10 brew Is smelling more like a sulphury fart today. Powerful stuff. And it has been stalled for the last 3 days on 1018.I'll rouse the yeast tomorrow to see if i can get it to drop a few more points. The samples taste fine (although still too sweet) but the smell !!! If it has not improved significantly by kegging time i suppose i will just chill ,as tim suggested, and also burp the keg regularly to try and scrub the DMS (if thats all it is).


DMS?

DMS is vegetable vibes, usually due to unmodified malts (such as Pils) not boiling off enough during the boil. 

If it's sulphur, lagering is your friend.


----------



## fletcher

Pratty1 said:


> dont be worried if you get home today and it still hasnt taken off......


finally took off the other day. not an aggressive krausen but at least it's there. excited to try it soon

EDIT: spelling


----------



## TimT

I've had a few bottles now of my pale ale I fermented over the MJ British Ale yeast. From the first bottle I got bready flavours and just a hint of apple, but now I think that is partly because I just opened it up at room temperature without cooling for a few days. Opened up two more today - one hadn't fully carbonated but made quite a pleasant drink anyway, the other given to a guest who pronounced it 'spicy'. From mine I didn't get a bready vibe, but did get a lingering sweetness, partly from a combination of malt sweetness and the apple esters.

The pale ale was very lightly hopped with some hops we picked ourselves from a wild growing bush in Bright and we certainly didn't treat the cones in the optimum way, so while we did get some bitterness and flavour from them, I think they weren't particularly obtrusive in the brew. As it turns out it didn't matter because the character the MJ brought to the party is quite enough to make the ale flavoursome and distinctive. Brilliant, I'm looking forward to finding out a lot more about this yeast.


----------



## TimT

Tried the Old Ale which I'm fermenting over the MJ Newcastle yeast today too - took a sample for gravity (still a way to go there) and taste testing.

Nice caramelly-fruity flavouring, and none of the unpleasant sulfur smells that were coming from the fermenter for a while. Excellent. 

This one has some funny problems -

1) What the hell is its the alcohol content really? The predicted OG was 1.074; the actual OG was more like 1.110. No idea why - well, actually my theory is some sediment that got into the wort (some of it was quite ropy) is mucking around with the gravity readings. Like, adding 40 points to them.

The gravity on the brew today - 1.055. Knock 40 off that and you're down around the 1.014 range, but the Irish Moss added to this brew did knock out a fair bit of precipitate, it has noticeably clarified in the last three days, and it's still quite sweet.

2) How much funny business is the yeast getting up to now? The fermentation started quickly - overnight; by the afternoon the bubbles were practically tumbling over one another to get out of the airlock. Went out for a few hours to a thing (we've all got *things*, y'know?) and when I came back they were super slow again. So it looks like most of the fermentation was done in a small window of about 6-8 hours; the rest of the time has just been clearing up. So how much further has the brew got to go?

I reckon this one's got a way to go yet. But could be an interesting brew when done.


----------



## Screwtop

This reminds me of the BRY97 thread. Have not had a problem with lag time using this yeast. It's great, prefer it to BRY97, use it at 1g/l and rehydrate. It's going within 24Hrs and has a great flavour profile. Never had a slow start using BRY97 either, wonder why?

Screwy


----------



## TimT

I've just started a brew on MJ M44. It's almost a day old; a goodly proportion of it is wheat malt (about 1/4 to 1/3). My plan is to get some of the flavours - combination of wheat and barley malt, and some herbs (yarrow and mugwort) added during the boil - shining through without too many esters, so I'm trying to ferment low.

There's a few signs of action - few frothy splotches on the surface - but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a few days before significant fermentation begins, going from other people's experiences.

We'll see.


----------



## Screwtop

TimT said:


> I've just started a brew on MJ M44. It's almost a day old; a goodly proportion of it is wheat malt (about 1/4 to 1/3). My plan is to get some of the flavours - combination of wheat and barley malt, and some herbs (yarrow and mugwort) added during the boil - shining through without too many esters, so I'm trying to ferment low.
> 
> There's a few signs of action - few frothy splotches on the surface - but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a few days before significant fermentation begins, going from other people's experiences.
> 
> We'll see.


A really clean yeast which allows malt and hop flavours to shine, less muddled. Doubt if you need low temp. 19C is good for this yeast, cooler ferment = longer lag time!


----------



## TimT

Great advice, thanks. Precise temp control will be hard anyway - the heat pad is crowded out! But I'm trying to give it comfortable temps to ferment at.

Several hours on there's a comfortable layer of froth on top; I expect tomorrow sometime it will solidify into a mushy brown cloud, with significant fermentation to start some time after that.

Probably sad of me to admit this but I *really* enjoy watching a beer slowly going through the stages of fermentation. It's almost as exciting as watching grass grow!


----------



## fletcher

jyo said:


> I'm drinking a darkish mild with Newcastle dark ale and really enjoying it.
> 
> It has thrown the dark fruit flavours and esters.
> 
> Will definitely use this again.
> 
> Also, have just cracked a keg of weizen using the Bavarian wheat. Typical weizen flavours and esters, with some very low vanilla flavours. Banana and spice, ticks all the boxes for me. I ran this at 19', so would be interesting to try it at higher fermentation temp to see what it throws.
> 
> Impressed again by this range.


sorry if this has been asked of you before now jyo, but what was your dark mild recipe when using this yeast? would you mind sharing?

i'm thinking of making a northern brown ale using the newcastle yeast myself


----------



## Screwtop

TimT said:


> Great advice, thanks. Precise temp control will be hard anyway - the heat pad is crowded out! But I'm trying to give it comfortable temps to ferment at.
> 
> Several hours on there's a comfortable layer of froth on top; I expect tomorrow sometime it will solidify into a mushy brown cloud, with significant fermentation to start some time after that.
> 
> Probably sad of me to admit this but I *really* enjoy watching a beer slowly going through the stages of fermentation. It's almost as exciting as watching grass grow!


Haha, grass growing results in work, fermentation results in relaxation - satisfaction. If you're seeing those little clouds of bubbles after 12 - 24 hrs that's phase 1 budding/cell growth. Layer of froth/krausen - phase 2 Fermentation. Many incorrectly believe this to be the start of yeast activity.

Screwy


----------



## going down a hill

TimT said:


> Great advice, thanks. Precise temp control will be hard anyway - the heat pad is crowded out! But I'm trying to give it comfortable temps to ferment at.
> 
> Several hours on there's a comfortable layer of froth on top; I expect tomorrow sometime it will solidify into a mushy brown cloud, with significant fermentation to start some time after that.
> 
> Probably sad of me to admit this but I *really* enjoy watching a beer slowly going through the stages of fermentation. It's almost as exciting as watching grass grow!


That's why fermenting in demijohns cant be beat.


----------



## TimT

Day three just beginning and we've got definite fermentation, after a relatively cold night. Excellent.


----------



## TimT

I've got four MJ brews going at the moment and they make an interesting compare and contrast:

Day four of my pale on MJ US West Coast 44 - the brew has clarified nicely; some carbonation still going on, with bubbles racing to the surface and the level in the airlock indicating there is pressure on the inside - but it's slowed to such an extent that it's probably only producing a few bubbles an hour. I find it a bit hard to believe that the fermentation could have been so rapid as to have completely finished overnight, so I may have to play the waiting game with this one.

Week four of my burnt honey bochet on the MJ Newcastle yeast; took a sample of that last night and found it had gone down to 1.014 (from about 1.100 or thereabouts). Still some fermentation but v. little, and it seems to have slowed down to a rate comparable to the MJ 44 brew - a blurp every hour or so. I might chuck some spices in soon. Nice coffee/toffee smells, and a winey/dark ale vibe.

Week two of my pumpkin ale, on the MJ British Ale yeast. Took five days to start.... three weeks in and it's still fermenting/carbonating relatively strongly. Two, maybe three bubbles a minute. Has mostly been casting up nice apple esters; they seem to have a bit more of a sulfury vibe today.

Old Ale, again on the MJ Newcastle yeast - about two weeks old. After a rapid start (kicked off in about four hours; within eight hours we had two/three bubbles a second), it slowed down to a virtual standstill within days. Still some signs of fermentation though.

Conclusions? I think the cold weather is knocking them about a bit; the MJ yeasts seem to be a bit lazy and eccentric (sometimes the fermentation will slow down and then speed up again!), but they definitely give nice/interesting results.

Reckon I'll shift my bochet off the heat pad tonight though and put the West Coast 444 pale ale/wheat thingy on heat pad.


----------



## indica86

I have a wheat beer going @ 19° with the Bavarian Wheat. This has kicked off in 12 hours to have big krausen @ 24 and looks to be going very well.


----------



## Screwtop

TimT said:


> I've got four MJ brews going at the moment and they make an interesting compare and contrast:
> 
> Day four of my pale on MJ US West Coast 44 - the brew has clarified nicely; some carbonation still going on, with bubbles racing to the surface and the level in the airlock indicating there is pressure on the inside - but it's slowed to such an extent that it's probably only producing a few bubbles an hour. I find it a bit hard to believe that the fermentation could have been so rapid as to have completely finished overnight, so I may have to play the waiting game with this one.
> 
> Week four of my burnt honey bochet on the MJ Newcastle yeast; took a sample of that last night and found it had gone down to 1.014 (from about 1.100 or thereabouts). Still some fermentation but v. little, and it seems to have slowed down to a rate comparable to the MJ 44 brew - a blurp every hour or so. I might chuck some spices in soon. Nice coffee/toffee smells, and a winey/dark ale vibe.
> 
> Week two of my pumpkin ale, on the MJ British Ale yeast. Took five days to start.... three weeks in and it's still fermenting/carbonating relatively strongly. Two, maybe three bubbles a minute. Has mostly been casting up nice apple esters; they seem to have a bit more of a sulfury vibe today.
> 
> Old Ale, again on the MJ Newcastle yeast - about two weeks old. After a rapid start (kicked off in about four hours; within eight hours we had two/three bubbles a second), it slowed down to a virtual standstill within days. Still some signs of fermentation though.
> 
> Conclusions? I think the cold weather is knocking them about a bit; the MJ yeasts seem to be a bit lazy and eccentric (sometimes the fermentation will slow down and then speed up again!), but they definitely give nice/interesting results.
> 
> Reckon I'll shift my bochet off the heat pad tonight though and put the West Coast 444 pale ale/wheat thingy on heat pad.


Bubbles, bubbles per hour etc is not an accurate indication of fermentation, gravity readings over consecutive days are an accurate indicator of whether fermentation is done or continuing. Bubbling can be from Co2 coming out of solution as the wort warms up.

HENRYS LAW: The solubility of a gas in a liquid depends on temperature, the partial pressure of the gas over the liquid, the nature of the solvent and the nature of the gas.


----------



## TimT

Thanks Screwy. Good advice.


----------



## jyo

fletcher said:


> sorry if this has been asked of you before now jyo, but what was your dark mild recipe when using this yeast? would you mind sharing?


Sure, mate. The late hops aren't to style, but who cares! Also, it's actually on the light end for colour. You wouldn't believe this keg blew tonight. Sadness.

Mild

*Recipe Specs*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.150
Total Hops (g): 60.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.037 (°P): 9.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 3.20 %
Colour (SRM): 14.3 (EBC): 28.2
Bitterness (IBU): 22.5 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 71
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

*Grain Bill*
----------------
3.500 kg Barrett Burston Ale (84.34%)
0.300 kg Bairds Dark Crystal (7.23%)
0.200 kg Brown Malt (4.82%)
0.100 kg Acidulated Malt (2.41%)
0.050 kg Chocolate (1.2%)

*Hop Bill*
----------------
30.0 g Styrian Golding Pellet (4.4% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.2 g/L)
30.0 g Styrian Golding Pellet (4.4% Alpha) @ 1 Minutes (Boil) (1.2 g/L)

*Misc Bill*
----------------

Single step Infusion at 69°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 21°C with MJ Newcastle dark Ale


----------



## fletcher

jyo said:


> Sure, mate. The late hops aren't to style, but who cares! Also, it's actually on the light end for colour. You wouldn't believe this keg blew tonight. Sadness.
> 
> Mild
> 
> *Recipe Specs*
> ----------------
> Batch Size (L): 25.0
> Total Grain (kg): 4.150
> Total Hops (g): 60.00
> Original Gravity (OG): 1.037 (°P): 9.3
> Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
> Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 3.20 %
> Colour (SRM): 14.3 (EBC): 28.2
> Bitterness (IBU): 22.5 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
> Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 71
> Boil Time (Minutes): 60
> 
> *Grain Bill*
> ----------------
> 3.500 kg Barrett Burston Ale (84.34%)
> 0.300 kg Bairds Dark Crystal (7.23%)
> 0.200 kg Brown Malt (4.82%)
> 0.100 kg Acidulated Malt (2.41%)
> 0.050 kg Chocolate (1.2%)
> 
> *Hop Bill*
> ----------------
> 30.0 g Styrian Golding Pellet (4.4% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.2 g/L)
> 30.0 g Styrian Golding Pellet (4.4% Alpha) @ 1 Minutes (Boil) (1.2 g/L)
> 
> *Misc Bill*
> ----------------
> 
> Single step Infusion at 69°C for 60 Minutes.
> Fermented at 21°C with MJ Newcastle dark Ale


thanks mate! might try it or something very similar. legend!


----------



## Spiesy

TimT said:


> Conclusions? I think the cold weather is knocking them about a bit; the MJ yeasts seem to be a bit lazy and eccentric (sometimes the fermentation will slow down and then speed up again!), but they definitely give nice/interesting results.


Cold weather, aka temperature, is a huge variable in yeast performance.


----------



## Forever Wort

I pitched the US West Coast MJ yeast onto a pale ale on Monday and as of this morning it still hasn't shown a single visible sign of fermentation. 

40 hours!


----------



## Dan Pratt

Forever Wort said:


> I pitched the US West Coast MJ yeast onto a pale ale on Monday and as of this morning it still hasn't shown a single visible sign of fermentation.
> 
> 40 hours!


M44 will do that, I have waited 56hrs before seeing any signs of fermentation.


----------



## micblair

Im at 4 days after pitching m84 yeast and still not a puff. I actually got a box of 10 at this years Craft Brewing conference, and I've committed now all 10 packs, along with 2 x their West Coast. This now a rescue mission. I won't be touching this stuff again.


----------



## TimT

My second go on the British Ale yeast (M07) took FIVE days to start properly, but in the end it did a decent job. You've just gotta take into account that some of these yeasts have a truly long lag time.


----------



## fletcher

just had a sample of my beer while bottling, made a big chinook/simcoe/centennial ipa using m44 and holy crap. amazing. it really accentuates the hop character and after cold crashing my FV, it has formed a tight and compact trub allowing me to lose only 250mL from the bottling process (started from 19L). very very happy with it so far. will definitely use this again over us-05 if it is still tasting this great in a few weeks. has me excited to try the english varieties.


----------



## AndrewQLD

Are you guys rehydrating the yeast? I've used all of the MJ yeasts and the longest lag time was 48 hours however I did rehydrate the yeast in 3/4 cup of water for 20 minutes first.


----------



## Wolfman

I have not rehydrated yet. Long lag times. Wondering if putting it in a starter would aid in getting it going quicker?


----------



## TimT

I don't make a starter but I do rehydrate, not long before I pitch. Don't know whether it really makes a difference - making a starter might.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

You must rehydrate if you want maximum viability in your yeasts.
You could lose up to 50% of your yeast if you dont.
Nev


----------



## TimT

Doesn't it just rehydrate in the wort anyway?


----------



## mje1980

This thread could get ugly real quick I fear


----------



## TimT

I understand there's a thread o' doom somewhere about the to hydrate or not hydrate debate, maybe just link to that....


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I rehydrated Mangrove Jacks, as I do most of the time (though sometimes I still just chuck it in).

There's a thread about the pros and cons of both (and some passionate arguing of same).

This is more about performance of these yeasts, rather than rehydrating an existing debate.


----------



## mje1980

2 times I've used the MJ dark ale. First I rehydrated ( I prefer to rehydrate dry yeast ), wasn't the quickest start but got going, second one was a bit last minute, so just sprinkled on top. Next morning it was kranking. Second batch was also pitched with brettanomyces, but I highly doubt it had anything to do with the beer kranking. In fact I doubt it's doing anything still ( been about a week ), it works very slowly. 

I'd prefer to rehydrate, but the sprinkle method worked well in the second batch.

One thing to remember is that a lot of people report long lag times, but for the high amount of long lag times reported, we don't see many threads about infected beers with these yeast strains.


----------



## Spiesy

TimT said:


> Doesn't it just rehydrate in the wort anyway?


Not the same, mate. The yeast are "working" in wort, in rehydration their warming up for the work.


----------



## rheffera

Drinking the oatmeal stout i fermented with the MJ british ale yeast, I did not rehydrate the yeast and i had activity within 24 hours.

As for the stout itself.. *takes sip*..*holds it*...smooth/ oily from the oats, as per norm. Hints of the EKG...Chocolate gives way to some roasted bitterness. A nice yeast that accentuates the malt, but doesn't outright smack you on the face with it like a stripper at the club. A yeast that would indeed be suitable to British styles. No significant quantity of phenols or diacetyl detected. WOuld buy again.


----------



## tiprya

PItched rehydrated Burton Union on Saturday afternoon, had surface bubbles/start of krausen the next morning.

Forgot to check it until last night (4 days after pitching) and I have a nice billowy krausen and it has dropped almost 30 points.

So, I've noticed nothing different to US05 etc and will definitely try other yeasts in this range.


----------



## TimT

Bottled my pale/wheat ale today that I'd been fermenting over MJ44. The gravity was 1.024 - I'd sampled it about a week ago and got the same gravity reading and was hoping to get it down a bit lower. (It went down from an original gravity of about 1.046). But then, I did mash high, about 68-70. (Apparently some of these yeasts can be lazy attenuators, but not sure with M44??? Have to do some more brews to find out.)

This means I think that the main part of fermentation began and ended in a fairly short time frame, about 48 hours after a fairly short lag time on pitching - about 12 hours. In that 48 hour period, the gravity went down 20 points and then the yeast went to beddy-byes.

Interestingly the herbal-yarrow flavours seem to be less noticeable today. Might just be because I had some chocolate before sampling the ale, and wasn't able to sense delicate flavours. I'm getting a nice malty smell from the dregs in my cup though.

The description on the packet has the MJ44 as a neutral yeast that lets hop character and malt flavour shine through but I notice it really brings its own character to the ale - sort of similar to the appley vibe that the British Ale yeast has; maybe a bit less strong. I think some of those flavours will drop away once the beer is fridged and possibly the herbal flavours will come back a bit. At any rate that's what I want out of these yeasts - something with a bit of character, esters, a bit of yeast funk. So I'm liking it - funk yeah!


----------



## Spiesy

rheffera said:


> but doesn't outright smack you on the face with it like a stripper at the club.


Well, that's disappointing.

Initial impressions of my APA with M44 - good. Transparent, in both flavour and appearance. I crashed this for 4-days before kegging, and after a couple of cloudy glasses it's not clear, with no masking of hop or malt flavours. Nicely attenuated too.


----------



## TimT

_Interestingly the herbal-yarrow flavours seem to be less noticeable today._

Scratch that, just had a second sample (of the leftover stuff that wouldn't fit in any of the bottles) and the yarrow smell and taste is _definitely _there.


----------



## dent

Drinking a glass of cider made with el cheapo juice and MJ 02 Cider yeast - best cider I've "brewed" yet. Super drinkable and what little sulfur was made is disappearing quickly. I like to backsweeten with about 250g dissolved white sugar per keg.

Brewed an Australian Bitter Ale with the M10 Workhorse, fermented quick and super clean so far, perfect for the style. Unfortunately I can't reuse the yeast as the glad wrap popped off overnight when the ferment was going hard, and I didn't trust any fruit flies not to take a swim - that one went into the keg ASAP.


----------



## jyo

What ferment temp, dent? I've been meaning to make a cider for ages.


----------



## dent

Just 18 degrees I think.


----------



## Wolfman

Made a 800ml starter for the dark ale yeast. Fermented that out really quick. Pitched the lot into a northern brown and less than 12 hours later it was cranking! Might be the solution to getting fermentation underway quicker.


----------



## TimT

I've used the dark ale yeast twice, just rehydrating both times and pitching straightaway - both times the brew was underway in a few hours. It's more with some of the other MJ yeasts I've noticed lag times.


----------



## Wolfman

TimT said:


> I've used the dark ale yeast twice, just rehydrating both times and pitching straightaway - both times the brew was underway in a few hours. It's more with some of the other MJ yeasts I've noticed lag times.


Am going to do the same with the burton I'm pitching onto a stout, so should have more news on that soon.


----------



## indica86

Burton Union into an ESB - krausen after 36 hours. Possibly before.


----------



## DeGarre

I absolutely loved everything about M07 British Ale and as soon as my Notty stock is finished I am going to start using it as a house yeast for bitters and pale ales. Burton Ale yeast is up next and I might be able to squeeze it in before the competion DIPA, especially as the Cascade I ordered is still in transit.

So I am thinking a simple ESB/winter warmer/burton ale/stock ale/old ale at 1055-1060°, pale ale, crystal, amber, oats and as little sugar as possible to boost the gravity, fairly blonde and loads of bittering hops (target, progress, ekg, whatever I have open in the freezer) and just a little bit for aroma. The let the Burton yeast do its magic.

I want the bulk of the beer to age and mature till Christmas. I am actually so excited, no wonder as my pipeline is busted, 2 beers still in the FV, and I haven't had a beer for ages. 

Basically a beer that I can drink from those short leg fat Belgian tulip glasses.


----------



## DeGarre

Pitched the Burton Union dry into 1058° wort at 1.30pm. After 3 hours some activity. After 10 hours clear bubbling. This morning a krausen ring and airlock pumping away steadily, not overly aggressive but steady thumping.

So no lag times to speak of. Wort was 21°C and room temp around 18-19°C.

I used 8.4% of sugar to pump up the gravity a few points.


----------



## DeGarre

Has gained momentum, going at it like a steamroller. What are these "lag times" I read about? Just produce superior wort and problemo solved...


----------



## TimT

Dicko on another thread shared the handbook on this series of yeasts; here it is. It's very useful - more notes on individual styles than you would just get on the packet, and general comments about yeast preparation, lag times, etc.

The main thing I noticed about it is its suggestion that all MJ yeasts (apart from the lager yeast) should be re-hydrated at about 30-35 degrees - not sure if this is standard practice.... I'd been rehydrating at much lower temps which may have contributed to the lag times.


----------



## tiprya

My Burton Union has stalled at 1.019 from 1.048.

I've racked to a keg, which usually restarts fermentation, but gotten nothing. Going to have to pitch some new yeast.

Very dissapointed, was looking forward to pitching the slurry onto a porter today, but now I'm worried it will stall again...

Edit: rehydrated, and oxygenated, pitched at 17, fermented at 20.


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

Had a read through the MJ info for the yeasts. They say we should not reuse.

"As a result of the drying process, Mangrove Jack’s dried yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and/or repitching. For best results, always use a fresh sachet of yeast with every brew. "

Is there any truth to this? Or is it just to get us to buy more packs?


----------



## indica86

I used the Belgian 3 times in a row with identical results - slurry that is.
I have also used the M44 in such a way and will be brewing two IPA with slurry from Burton Union. I see no issue with it.


----------



## dent

RelaxedBrewer said:


> Had a read through the MJ info for the yeasts. They say we should not reuse.


*cough* bullshit *cough*


----------



## TimT

I read that bit too, I'm certainly planning on re-using my yeast cakes.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I've saved my M79 slurry from a 1.040 mild, which will (with a big pitch) go into a high gravity Ale, Stout or something like that.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

You are all going to hell 
Nev


----------



## TimT

Re-using yeast cakes is an interesting question to me and ties in with another question I'm interested in, the possibility of keeping a house yeast. But that topic is so broad it deserves its own thread, so I gave it one.


----------



## pajs

Made a Munich I plus Glacier SMaSH ale this week with MJ44. Took 24 hours to get going, but a good krausen was there a day after that. Ticking along sedately now.


----------



## DeGarre

I reused MJ British Ale M07 and it was just as fine the 2nd time and will be my new house yeast when Notty stock runs out. I simply swirl the FV and mix the remaining yeasty beer and the yeast on the bottom and pour it into a glass jar(s), put it in the fridge and use it in 30-40 days or so. I don't do any washing or anything, just whatever is in the jar goes into a new batch.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Pitched M10 Workhorse in to a 1070 wort this morning and its fermenting now, some 5hrs.
I have it in a flask so I can see the CO2 rising, not a krausen beast at this stage but it is fermenting.
Nev


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Pitched M10 Workhorse in to a 1070 wort this morning and its fermenting now, some 5hrs.
> I have it in a flask so I can see the CO2 rising, not a krausen beast at this stage but it is fermenting.
> Nev


1 hour later and I have 20mm krausen over the whole top.
FYI I did rehydrate and mixed on the mag stirrer then pitched within 15 mins.
Nev


----------



## indica86

I bottled an English Pale yesterday, dumped some slurry into both an English IPA and an American IPA - yeast is Burton union. 12 hours later visible fermentation - may have happened earlier but I was sleeping.


----------



## TimT

Bottling some slurry today of three brews - two from MJ ferments, a Newcastle Ale and a British Ale yeast respectively. And I noticed a funny thing: many of the individual granules from the British Ale yeast were still bobbing about the bottom of the fermenter: evidently they never became adequately rehydrated, remained dormant, and perhaps when the wort began to become alcoholic, the granules that might have become active instead decided against it.

This suggests that my problems with lag times may have begun with my rehydration. Next time I'll try, as they suggest, to dissolve the yeast thoroughly in water that's about 30 degrees C, though not anything above that.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Pitched M10 Workhorse in to a 1070 wort this morning and its fermenting now, some 5hrs.
> I have it in a flask so I can see the CO2 rising, not a krausen beast at this stage but it is fermenting.
> Nev





Online Brewing Supplies said:


> 1 hour later and I have 20mm krausen over the whole top.
> FYI I did rehydrate and mixed on the mag stirrer then pitched within 15 mins.
> Nev


I mixed at less than 30C and did notice some clumping so I smashed them with a spoon, fixed it right up.
This M10 is one of the nicest smelling yeasts I have used, cant stop sniffing it.
Nev


----------



## Ross

We've been doing some yeast trials for our house Kolsch, & the M79 seemed a perfect choice from it's descriptors. We brewed 5 identical batches with 5 different yeasts, & all performed as expected except the M79. the beer was clovey & spicy & made a perfect Belgian Blonde. We were concerned that maybe the batch had got got contaminated so brewed again to double check. The 2nd brew was identical to the first. How they are calling this an English Ale strain is beyond me, it shows none of the character claimed. On a positive note, we love the results as a Belgian Blonde & have now brewed a few kegs for commercial sale...

M79 Burton Union Yeast
AROMA CHARACTERISTICS:
Some pear esters, possibly strawberry or kiwi-like aromas can be expected. Clean, delicate
malt and hop aromas will survive fermentation. If hop and/or malt aromas are prominent in the
beer this strain’s aroma characteristics will fade to the background.
FLAVOR/MOUTH FEEL CHARACTERISTICS:
Clean, mostly neutral and smooth, finishes beers moderately dry but does not strip away body.
Silky, lightly smooth texture, light to medium body, mild acidity and mostly neutral flavor.
Aroma contributions from this yeast strain makes it a good all-rounder for a wide range of ales.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Well thats a shame but who would try and brew a Kolsch with a Burton ale yeast maybe the Bohemian or M44 would have been more suited.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

What limited information I found on the internet suggested Belgian characteristics for M79, especially when not massively pitched, and that concerned me. But given it was a house beer it was going into, I thought "who cares, as long as it's good".

Due to dry July, I can't confirm this, but interested to see Ross has had the same experience as many others.

I had heard it mentioned that M79 needs a higher pitching rate to get rid of Belgian characteristics (I think it was HBHB that might have mentioned it).

Good anecdotal evidence thought, thanks heaps for that Ross.


----------



## indica86

I didn't get Belgian characteristics from my Burton Union brews, however I did with the Belgian Ale strain.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Another update.

Just reused the M79, contrary to instructions on a high gravity darkly coloured beer.

I saved the trub into 2 bottles, one 600ml and one about 1L (in a 1.25L bottle with the air squeezed out). Poured it into the fermenter after 3 days in the fridge, leaving the bottom gunky trub that had settled in the bottle.

Off and running within 24 hours. Appears to be quite happy. I'll let you know how Reuse #1 goes.

Given this reuse is in a high gravity, dark beer, the other R1 yeast in the 600ml bottle will need to be brewed with and recollected as an R2 and used before i can give feedback. I'll see how it goes.

The original beer was an Amber Mild at 1.038.


----------



## jyo

I cracked a keg of ESB on Sunday brewed with the Burton Union. 2 weeks from grain to glass and I'm pretty happy. Nice esters good body and crisp finish. Fermented at 20'.
I had read some bsd reviews about this yeast on one of the American forums so was apprehensive.

What ferment temp Ross?


----------



## Ross

19c


----------



## going down a hill

I brewed an Australian pale with the British yeast yesterday it kicked off in under 24hrs. Lag time seemed to be within standard times. I hydrated!!!!!!


----------



## TimT

Started one yesterday with British yeast. Another pale.

There was some stuff on the surface this morning, and it grew throughout the day. Carbonation gradually speeding up.

It's significantly quicker than my other British yeast ferments! Differences this time: I made more attempts to dissolve the yeast in the water, and to rehydrate in warmer water.... and I used yeast from two packets (decided the leftover amounts I added from one weren't enough, so I sprinkled in some more from a second packet.... okay, I didn't rehydrate that lot.)

It's on a heat pad so it shouldn't be toooooo disturbed by the overnight cold.


----------



## super_simian

I did my house ale with M79; 19 litres, pitched with 1 pack, re-hydrated. After 36 hours with no krausen, I dry-pitched a second pack. 12 hours later, action. After the whole shooting match, I was left with an ale my house-mate (who is no beer slouch) described as "A pretty good saison, but not much of a pale ale..." After quite a while in the bottle...not much had changed. Still drinkable, but not at all what I'd intended. Very Belgian.

I have just pitched M03 Newcastle into a mild, and it's taken off like a rocket and smells wicked good so far. So, M79 is not in my good books, but I'm giving MJ yeasts in general another few goes. Still have M07 in the fridge, waiting for an ESB.


----------



## TimT

Good krausen and fermentation this morning. It smells super sweet, combination of the appley esters and the tagetes flowers I added at the end of the boil. Hopefully that lovely tagetes smell won't all get carried away - I suspect not, actually, as last time I used tagetes in the same way the aroma and flavour proved to be very resilient.

The BA yeast is performing better this time - I think probably because of my rehydration in 30 degree water.


----------



## indica86

Well I have 2 IPAs going with slurry from Burton Union.
Tasted today, both tasted like they should, down to below 1020 from above 1050. One is UK one is US.


----------



## dent

RelaxedBrewer said:


> " Mangrove Jack’s dried yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and/or repitching. For best results, always use a fresh sachet of yeast with every brew. "


It occurred to me just now a reason why they might state this, perhaps more so aimed at commercial brewing. 

If they cannot guarantee that yeast is free enough from contaminant organisms, then after subsequent pitches they could multiply to numbers which may be problematic. That could justify the statement. 

I'm not gonna worry about it.


----------



## TimT

Pitched the Bavarian Wheat yeast last night on a wit of my own devising.... a weird thing using lichen instead of hops; getcha full details here. It was up and cranking by this morning with a full frothy krausen and some sweet whiffs coming up - I assume the 'banana' and 'clove' esters. The yeast even smelled kinda bananay and clovey coming out of the packet. I rehydrated at about 30 as per instructions.

My hope for this is to have some yeasty flavours to go with the licheny flavours; I may be doing a bit of back-bittering/flavouring in secondary fermentation to get the taste just right.

Meantime: another pale ale on MJ British Ale yeast (I think I've mentioned this already?) and a red ale on Newcastle Ale yeast; both fermenting steadily. I'm pleased to say this time I got noticeable signs of British Ale yeast fermentation overnight. Looks like the rehydration really is the key.


----------



## Byran

dent said:


> It occurred to me just now a reason why they might state this, perhaps more so aimed at commercial brewing.
> 
> If they cannot guarantee that yeast is free enough from contaminant organisms, then after subsequent pitches they could multiply to numbers which may be problematic. That could justify the statement.
> 
> I'm not gonna worry about it.


I had some slurry from an M44 in the fridge for not longer than 2 weeks to repitch in a new batch, it tasted of autolysis even after that short time. Ive had slurries from other yeasts in the fridge for a year without that burnt rubber taste.


----------



## TimT

But if you gave them something to eat, say, a starter with nutrients, you'd surely be able to culture a fresh batch and leave the autolysis flavours behind?


----------



## danestead

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> You are all going to hell
> Nev


Just sell them one of those new shiny conicals you sell nev. Thatll make up for them not buying more yeast!


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I chucked mine in about 4 days after harvesting.

Not sure of Autolysis - it's gone from a very small to a very big beer.

I'll check when I bottle.


----------



## danestead

indica86 said:


> Side by side brews with US05 and M44 this time.
> US05 signs in 12 hours.
> M44 56 hours before any sign.


What was the outcome of this? In particular flavour, clarity and attenuation?


----------



## tazman1967

I'm putting down the Somerset Gold Cider recipe with the Mo2 Cider yeast,will report back results.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

tazman1967 said:


> I'm putting down the Somerset Gold Cider recipe with the Mo2 Cider yeast,will report back results.


The Cider yeast is a cracker, you will not be disappointed.
Nev


----------



## tazman1967

Any Ideas Nev ? rehydrate ? , temps ? etc..


----------



## indica86

danestead said:


> What was the outcome of this? In particular flavour, clarity and attenuation?


The M44 one was arse, I feel I may have done something wrong though as I usually like the yeast.


----------



## danestead

indica86 said:


> The M44 one was arse, I feel I may have done something wrong though as I usually like the yeast.


Did you get a differenet FG to the US05? Im just interested because someone has brewed my Hop Hog Clone with the M44 yeast and it seemed to attenuate quite a bit more. Im wondering if that is typical of the M44


----------



## indica86

Not sure on the arse beer, previous APAs have gone below 1010, so I have found the attenuation is good.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

tazman1967 said:


> Any Ideas Nev ? rehydrate ? , temps ? etc..


I rehydrate and start it off in 4L then top up to volume when at full krausen, mostly at 18C.


----------



## tazman1967

Cool, thanks Nev.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> I rehydrate and start it off in 4L then top up to volume when at full krausen, mostly at 18C.


thats an interesting technique Nev, If my thining is right.... you add the yeast to the FV and add only 4litrs ( possibly no chill wort ) and then when fermentation has formed krausen you pour the rest of the wort inn and away it goes?


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Pratty1 said:


> thats an interesting technique Nev, If my thining is right.... you add the yeast to the FV and add only 4litrs ( possibly no chill wort ) and then when fermentation has formed krausen you pour the rest of the wort inn and away it goes?


Only did this for cider, I do the first run in a glass FV then transfer to a Cornie and top up with juice.
I did this mainly because I wasnt sure the Cider yeast pack had enough nutrients (included) to get the whole lot going at once, so basically I did a big starter.
Didnt get any sulfur stink so I think it works this way.
Nev


----------



## noz

Hi guys, I've tried two brews with Mangrove Jacks and both have been disappointing. Both ales, and both times the English Ale yeast. I brew from extract, primary fermentation was nice and cool , below 19 degrees, and I let it warm up a bit for the last few points like I always do. Primed with 5.5g of dextrose/litre.
Both have failed to carbonate well and I can taste a bit of the priming sugar in the bottle after 6 weeks at room temp, and both have had a slightly phenolic aftertaste. 
Anyone else had problems like these?


----------



## TimT

I have lately been having a few carbonation issues of my own but at the moment I'm hesitant to blame it on the yeast. Could be a side effect of the cold weather.


----------



## TimT

I'm impressed though with the carbonation on the first ale I fermented on my MJ British Ale yeast, and the taste was quite satisfactory - a pleasant apple-ester character and a slightly fruity yeasty bitterness. It's what I want in my beers at the moment: yeast that performs well and brings out the character in malt with little or no hops. When I crack some of my beers from MJ yeasts over the coming days/weeks I'll be able to make some more observations re: carbonation.


----------



## noz

TimT said:


> I have lately been having a few carbonation issues of my own but at the moment I'm hesitant to blame it on the yeast. Could be a side effect of the cold weather.


You're probably right, when I say room temp, I mean the cold part of the house so it could probably do with it a bit warmer in the bottle. 


To your health and happiness.


----------



## TimT

I suspect the cold is knocking around the beers in my study too, still on heat pads but looking a little lacklustre at the moment. They get warm bottoms and cold tops at night.


----------



## Forever Wort

Of the brew before last, bottled a month ago, only half have carbed satisfactorily. The batch after that carbed perfectly, 100%. Of the most recently bottled, only three bottles have carbed so far. 

The weather is definitely playing a role in my opinion.


----------



## noz

I've never had the same trouble with fermentis brand yeast. I find the safales work right down to 14 or 15 degrees. Might stick to that and try mangroves again in November when it warms up.


----------



## technobabble66

TimT said:


> I pitched in the Mangrove Jacks British Ale yeast into my latest brew, a pale ale, yesterday afternoon. Almost no signs of activity yet - for most of that time the bubble in the airlock has indicated more pressure from the outside than from the inside! I pitched when the wort was about 20 degrees and chucked in a couple of raisins for natural nutrient.
> 
> I think the yeast is having a bit of a sook because of cold temps overnight; I'm going to keep the brew at a fairly steady 20 degrees or so today to give the yeast a chance to work up some steam. If it's still doing nothing in a day or so I'll chuck in some nutrient.


Same - mine took several days to properly fire up. But to be fair, i was a bit slack with temp control - it dropped "a bit" from 22°C down to 15°C over 3-4 days before i decided f*&^% it i've gotta nurse this, & added some heat. 2 days later a nice 1" krausen formed & is now tasting great. We'll see how it ends up!


----------



## going down a hill

TimT said:


> I suspect the cold is knocking around the beers in my study too, still on heat pads but looking a little lacklustre at the moment. They get warm bottoms and cold tops at night.


You could always throw a blanket over the top of the beers to keep them warm at night?


----------



## mje1980

Or spoon them


----------



## TimT

Had another one today - pumpkin ale today, fermented over the British Ale yeast. More than adequate carbonation and a full bouquet of flavours to boot.


----------



## TimT

Even if the cold is knocking them about a bit I am noticing a few problems with attenuation. Bottled a red ale fermented over the Newcastle Ale yeast today, and the gravity was still in the high 20s - 10.28, down from 1.030 when I sampled earlier in the week. It started at 1.056. Not ideal!

I've observed the Newcastle Ale yeast in particular seems to have a very quick uptake and does a lot of fermentation rapidly in the first day or so. Within hours it will have started, and in a few more hours carbonation will be occurring extremely rapidly. And then, often.... it quietly disperses and sinks to the bottom, not bothering with the last portion of sugar. This can be a sizeable portion, as seen above.

So I'm thinking maybe a bit more nursing is desirable for these yeasts: maybe mutliple additions of yeast nutrient for stages in the yeast's life cycle? I may try that for further brews.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

I would say more constant temps, heat belt thats controlled. Keep the temp at the top end of the range late into ferment.
Every winter I hear what you are saying, the answer is the same.
Nev


----------



## TimT

Hmm. Thanks for that. My other idea was move them to another room, maybe near the oven. My heater for this study (where the yeast and I do work sitting alongside one another) has gone bork, so I can't keep the room temp warm.


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

I agree.
Sounds like the Newcastle yeast behaves like a lot of the other english yeasts do. It likes to be warmed up towards the end of fermentation.

I like to pitch them cool and then warm them up slowly over the ferment (about 1C a day). Doing this I often get quite high attenuation.


----------



## fletcher

RelaxedBrewer said:


> I agree.
> Sounds like the Newcastle yeast behaves like a lot of the other english yeasts do. It likes to be warmed up towards the end of fermentation.
> 
> I like to pitch them cool and then warm them up slowly over the ferment (about 1C a day). Doing this I often get quite high attenuation.


what sorts of temps are you talking about mate? starting at what and finishing at what?


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

fletcher said:


> what sorts of temps are you talking about mate? starting at what and finishing at what?


Depends on how clean/estery I want the beer and the yeast.

Typically for a fairly clean beer with a hint of english fruity esters I will pitch at ~16. Then set the fridge to 19C. It will usually take about ~24 hr to reach 19C and I keep it there for a day or two. Then start bumping it up 1C each day until I get to 21-22C.

I have never used the newcastle yeast, but have done similar things with WLP 002, 007, 013, Wyeast 1028 and SO4 all producing good results.


----------



## technobabble66

As I mentioned above, I accidentally hv done the same. Dropped as low as 15*C by day 2 w no sign of activity. Gradually raised it to 18-19 over 2 days using a couple of PET bottles of hot water in the bottom of the fermentation fridge (works well as a ghetto solution to maintain a 1-2*C range). After another day or 3 had krausen forming. 17 days after pitching it's dropped from 1.055(?) to 1.016, with about 4 points to go. Bit slow, but not too bad considering it was hypothermic for the first 2-3 days. Smells nice - slight pear notes I think. 
So I'd agree w RB, it seems to behave similar to other British yeasts I've read about - needs a bit more nursing with heat than some of the other strains.


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

TimT said:


> Even if the cold is knocking them about a bit I am noticing a few problems with attenuation. Bottled a red ale fermented over the Newcastle Ale yeast today, and the gravity was still in the high 20s - 10.28, down from 1.030 when I sampled earlier in the week. It started at 1.056. Not ideal!



Am I reading this correctly, that you bottled at a FG of 28?


----------



## TimT

Yep. As I said, not ideal. (It tastes pretty good though).


----------



## AndrewQLD

The Newcastle Ale yeast does not attenuate very well, the spec sheet on this yeast states that it doesn't as well. I've brewed 3 times with this yeast and each time my fg was around 1.016 with the starting gravity being around 1.054. It's a yeast for full bodied brown or dark ales and if you use it in the correct style it gives a beautiful rounded malt flavour.


----------



## beermeupscotty

TimT said:


> Even if the cold is knocking them about a bit I am noticing a few problems with attenuation. Bottled a red ale fermented over the Newcastle Ale yeast today, and the gravity was still in the high 20s - 10.28, down from 1.030 when I sampled earlier in the week. It started at 1.056. Not ideal!
> 
> I've observed the Newcastle Ale yeast in particular seems to have a very quick uptake and does a lot of fermentation rapidly in the first day or so. Within hours it will have started, and in a few more hours carbonation will be occurring extremely rapidly. And then, often.... it quietly disperses and sinks to the bottom, not bothering with the last portion of sugar. This can be a sizeable portion, as seen above.
> 
> So I'm thinking maybe a bit more nursing is desirable for these yeasts: maybe mutliple additions of yeast nutrient for stages in the yeast's life cycle? I may try that for further brews.


Had similar problems with the Newcastle Dark Ale M03 yeast. Recently fermented a brown ale using a starter with the dry yeast (I've since read that people generally don't do starters from dry yeast). It took off like crazy but stopped pretty quickly at 1.022. I thought maybe this was on account of my starter so I pitched another pack of the dry stuff but no more fermentation occurred. I think I may have pitched slightly high (24-26°C) but temperature controlled it at 19°C, followed by 21°C.


----------



## super_simian

It's a low attenuating yeast. Low attenuating. Low. Attenuating. It's only a "problem" if you didn't realise that before pitching. Expect 66-70% AA. If that isn't enough attenuation, don't use this yeast. Simple.


----------



## beermeupscotty

super_simian said:


> It's a low attenuating yeast. Low attenuating. Low. Attenuating. It's only a "problem" if you didn't realise that before pitching. Expect 66-70% AA. If that isn't enough attenuation, don't use this yeast. Simple.


OG = 1050
'FG' = 1022
AA = 56%


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Sounds perfect for a Mild. Excellent, my next brew is planned!


----------



## TimT

I bottled my bochet (burnt honey mead) today which I also fermented over this yeast. Only got it down to 1.014 in the end, which is probably something to do with this yeast's low attenuation character (honey is almost fully fermentable). But it went down from about 1.104, so not too shabby....


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

TimT said:


> I bottled my bochet (burnt honey mead) today which I also fermented over this yeast. Only got it down to 1.014 in the end, which is probably something to do with this yeast's low attenuation character (honey is almost fully fermentable). But it went down from about 1.104, so not too shabby....


I would say that would have more to do with the alcohol tolerance than attenuation give that it would be at ~11.8%.


----------



## TimT

_I would say that would have more to do with the alcohol tolerance than attenuation give that it would be at ~11.8%._

Couple of things came into it too I reckon - though honey is fully fermentable, apparently when you burn it, you get some unfermentable sugars. I made the bochet about two months ago, going into winter, and things just kept getting colder for it. I am really pleased with this one.


----------



## super_simian

beermeupscotty said:


> OG = 1050
> 'FG' = 1022
> AA = 56%


Yeah, that's pretty low. Much crystal? And mash temp? My last two milds, both with M03, achieved 68% AA, with under 5% crystal and 66-67C mash temp. To get Windsor that low I had to try 10-15% crystal and 68-69C mash temps. That said, I seem to push the upper limits of attenuation for dry yeast. Great for IPA, but ruins mild. For example, my default Brewmate settings,based on experience are:

Nottingham: 78%
Windsor: 72%
S33: 74% (although S33 always seems to come back to life and over attenuate after a couple of month in the bottle...weird)
S05: 80%
S04: 77%
Coopers (dry): 76%

I haven't used BRY97, or the MJ yeasts enough times for confident AA figures; but like I said, after two brews M03 looks about 68%, for my setup. As the septics say, your mileage may vary. And crystal, mash temp (and to a lesser extent mash time and thickness), simple fermentables, aeration and temp control all have their effects on attenuation.


*My post wasn't meant to be specifically directed at yours BTW.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

By AA you mean % ADF ?
Never seen it expressed as AA.
Nev


----------



## super_simian

Apparent attenuation is expressed as %AA in more than a few formulae for determining ABV and real attenuation. But %ADF is less easily confused with alpha acid in this context, so I will use it in future. A good point well made.


----------



## beermeupscotty

super_simian said:


> Yeah, that's pretty low. Much crystal? And mash temp? My last two milds, both with M03, achieved 68% AA, with under 5% crystal and 66-67C mash temp. To get Windsor that low I had to try 10-15% crystal and 68-69C mash temps. That said, I seem to push the upper limits of attenuation for dry yeast. Great for IPA, but ruins mild.


That brew was from a kit actually. The craft series 'Nut Brown Ale'.

The top layer of the fermenter actually looked a bit murky and wrong - perhaps an infection or something untoward? (now that I Google-image-search 'brewing infection' - I'm thinking it looks just like an infection - which'd be my first...)


----------



## IsonAd

First try with M44. Been in the fridge a while but still within best before. Split the pack between two 10l versions of janets brown. rehydrated with about 28 ish degreee water. 36hrs in and no sign of fermentation


----------



## IsonAd

Signs of fermentation started at about 48hrs and were in full swing by 60hrs after pitching the m44


----------



## RelaxedBrewer

With all of these slow starts being reported, has anyone taken a gravity reading during the lag?

Just wondering if something is happening before any visible signs of fermentation.


----------



## Forever Wort

I've been thinking about this. I pitched a cup of M10 slurry on Monday and this morning there was still _nothing _visible at all. It just doesn't seem right! Never had problems with handling slurry before.

I will check what's going on again tonight.


----------



## Phoney

I bought the American Ale variety. I havent used a dry yeast in years, anyone know how it compares to say WLP001 / WY1056 / WY1272?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I pitched slurry of M79 on a really big beer (RIS), and it took off like the clappers.


----------



## TimT

_I pitched a cup of M10 slurry on Monday and this morning there was still nothing visible at all. _


Warm that baby up. That might do the trick.

When I was having problems with the British Ale yeast lag times I think ensuring the wort was the right temp was an important step in getting a good fermentation.

If you don't have a heat belt, immersion heater, heat pad, or something like that, you could just consider finding the warmest spot in the house (next to the oven or water heater), or similar.

I'm currently immersing some of my brews in larger pots of water for most of the day. Since I work at home I can keep the water temp a fairly constant 21 degrees, and it disperses the heat nicely around the whole fermenter, giving the yeast a good finishing off temp. A similar low tech method may work for you!


----------



## fletcher

i'll be brewing a robust porter soon (english hops and malts) and want to know what people would choose for the yeast. i'm considering the M07 (british) or M03 (UK dark). anyone done a porter with either? any feedback? i'm leaning toward the M07 as it states it attenuates well. thoughts? i don't really want one that stalls at 1.020 either if it can be helped.


----------



## indica86

I have 2 beers brewed with slurry from an English Bitter. The yeast is Burton Union.
Both are IPAs. One US style and one English.
Both fermented quickly. Both taste as they should, the US bitter and fruity - as per the hop schedule - with some great maltiness, the English one is bitter and beautiful.
No esters, no "Belgian" type flavours as previously described.
Top beers, top yeast.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Mild is great, for such a low OG beer, it were quite malty.

Good strong British esters coming through - plenty of apple & pear but I do get a hint of the Belgian character - just a hint.

I will say it's easily the most flavoursome dry Brit yeast I've used.

And drops dead dead clear and stays there.


----------



## TimT

Fletcher, just did a robust porter last night. Ended up going with the Newcastle Ale yeast; my plan this time is to tend to it after peak fermentation to try to ensure there's enough high temp to keep the yeast active.


----------



## Forever Wort

I ended up with a 96-hour lag time on the M10 slurry - but it sure foamed up!


----------



## TimT

The issue of attenuation is a tricky one. I've been giving two of my MJ brews a low-tech heat treatment in an attempt to lower their gravity a few points each - basically I'm plonking them in a pot of water during the day and refreshing the water every so often to keep the temp up. That way the temp all around the fermenters is fairly even and the yeast has a warm environment in which to work. At night I put them back on the heat pad - not ideal but maybe yeast is used to cycles of warm day/cool nights and so can adjust to this. 

One brew is a Beetroot Ale that's been fermenting over Burton Union yeast. The other is a wheat beer on the Bavarian wheat yeast.

The OG for the Beetroot Ale/Burton Union yeast: 1.060. In eight days it went down to 1.028. Took another sample in six days from then. It's now down to 1.025. This is a little disappointing - I might need to give it an extended nurse for several weeks to make an appreciable change in the gravity. (Perhaps I took this sample too early, anyway.)

The wheat beer OG was 1.066. In three days, that went down to 1.034, and a lot of yeast must have dropped out by then as in my notes I say I 'gave it a swirl'.
At this point I also added some herbs and spices (some lichen and lemon rind). The lemon rind seems to have kicked off a bit of a secondary fermentation. Nine days after that I decided to give this one a bit of a heat treatment, too. I've yet to sample this one, but there are more signs of activity in the wheat beer than the Beetroot Ale - more movement through the airlock, and a fringe of bubbles around the side that have only really subsided in the past day or so.

And that's where I am with both of those brews.

On the plus side, the taste of both is fantastic: the Beetroot Ale is malty and sweet and slightly fruity and spice and, overall, quite pleasantly strange. The wheat beer had a super sweet and yeasty flavour when I tasted it, which yeasty flavour has hopefully been enhanced by some weird licheny flavours from the additives. On the flavour side I'm very satisfied with these yeasts.


----------



## Donske

Can anyone share their experiences with the Bohemian Lager yeast, M84 I think. 

I'm currently planning a German pils and am hoping that I can find an adequate dry yeast for the job, I'm tossing up between the MJ yeast and S189 at this point.


----------



## Forever Wort

I have a lager 2.5 weeks into fermentation with the M84. No dramas. Long lag time at 12°C but frothed up eventually. Smells good.


----------



## Donske

Donske said:


> Can anyone share their experiences with the Bohemian Lager yeast, M84 I think.
> 
> I'm currently planning a German pils and am hoping that I can find an adequate dry yeast for the job, I'm tossing up between the MJ yeast and S189 at this point.


Gonna chicken out and go with S189 for this pilsner, I like to have as many known quantities as possible when brewing something for the first time.

I will grab a couple of packs of the MJ lager and throw them at a cube of cream ale wort, which I think would technically make it a classic American pilsner, should be fun, the lost causes who drink the bloody thing will have a melt down, took long enough to get them comfortable with drinking an ale.


----------



## jimi

I have a helles which had MJ84 pitched to it 3 and a bit weeks ago. The bit of sulfur is starting to disappear now and is tasting very clean at it's expected FG of 1012 (OG 1048). I pitched cold 10c and kept at about 12c until ending at about 15c now to finish off. I did pitch two packs. Quite happy with it at present, it will soon make its way into a dunkel as well


----------



## Topher

I've been reading this thread and just pitched the burton union into a batch of 1043 Irish Red. 

Will post results here. My main concern is the reports of low flocculation and soupy beer.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I didn't get low flocc with m79 - in fact it sits like a stone in the bottle and easy to pour a dead clear beer.


----------



## indica86

I did not get "soupy" beer with M79. The Bitter it was used on is great. Repitched slurry into two IPAs and they are both great, and reasonably clear too for me.


----------



## indica86

Forever Wort said:


> I have a lager 2.5 weeks into fermentation with the M84. No dramas. Long lag time at 12°C but frothed up eventually. Smells good.


Do you know how long the lag time was? Mine has not kicked off yet and I think I'll cry soon.


----------



## SJW

I pitched M84 Boh Lager 24 hours ago at 20 deg C. It dropped to 15 deg C pretty quick, but still no action. Is this normal?
I hate dry yeast


----------



## skwaler

I used a rehydrated packet of West Coast M44 into 25L of OG1049 @ 20C. No sign of action for 72 hours, then bubbled away happily for 5-6 days. I only bottled this batch last week so can't comment on how this slow start affected flavours.

I've seen many reports of slow starts with the Mangrove yeasts.


----------



## AndrewQLD

SJW said:


> I pitched M84 Boh Lager 24 hours ago at 20 deg C. It dropped to 15 deg C pretty quick, but still no action. Is this normal?
> I hate dry yeast


My last one took 48 hours to really kick off.


----------



## Topher

My burton was nothing for 48 hours, then a decent krausen and a lovely smell. Pitched and kept at a hospitable 20c, weird.


----------



## SJW

AndrewQLD said:


> My last one took 48 hours to really kick off.


Ok she is away now, I hope it fully attenuates. Not too worried about lag time as long as it does its job.


----------



## jyo

So far I've made my way through the West Coast, Burton Union, Newcastle Dark, Bavarian Wheat and British Ale.

The only one I've had lag with (24 hours +) is the West Coast Ale.


----------



## tj2204

How long is the burton union taking to ferment out for everyone else? 

I've had a batch of standard bitter (1040 og) in the fermenter at a steady 18c for 11 days now and gravity has only dropped to 1018. There is still a thick foam on top of the wort so it still appears to be chugging away, albeit much slower that I was expecting.


----------



## indica86

My Bohemian Lager took 3 days to take off, but then finished in a flash.
Pitched on the 8th, diacetyl rest done and crashing now.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

My M79 was done in a week or so. 

I'm happy with the flavour regardless of whether it has that slightly Belgian feel to it.


----------



## fletcher

i'm currently fermenting with the british ale yeast. hydrated and made sure my wort was well oxygenated. still had over 24 hours lag but it's kicking on now. to me it seems they all lag.


----------



## tiprya

Pitched a rehydrated packet of the Belgian ale into 19L of oxygenated 1.064 wort.

Krausen the next morning. Leaving this at ambient, interested to see how it ends up.


----------



## fletcher

tasting a porter now i made with the m07 british ale yeast. superb. really happy with it. fermented at 17C and there is just enough ester there to give the beer some yeast profile, but not overpower it. might even go a touch higher next time. i'll definitely use it again.

super impressed so far with m44 and m07.


----------



## The Village Idiot

How quickly did the 07 and the 44 ferment out? Looking for a quick grain to brain keg filler.


----------



## GrantSpatchcock

M07 is a beast! Pitched half a pack of rehydrated M07 into 5L of 1.098 English Barleywine @ 19-20c. There was tonnes of airlock activity and a light krausen by midnight, and now it is rocketing along. 

Lag time? What lag time!


----------



## warra48

I've just started drinking a batch of AIPA bottled 2 weeks ago.

As I didn't have any liquid yeast on hand when I brewed it, and MHB was in hibernation prior to the ownership transfer, I reluctantly called in to my local HB shop and bought a pack of M44 West Coast Ale.
Didn't realise until I got home it was within weeks of its best before date, and it had been stored at ambient temperature all that time.
I tried to rehydrate it, but it did bugger all. In desperation, I pitched it in any case into an 18 litre batch. It took two days before it showed any action, but then it seemed to slowly chug along. Ultimately it took it from 1.057 to 1.013, which means about 76% apparent attenuation. It seems to be a real top cropper with a thick layer on top of the brew, even after two weeks in the fermenter.
In spite of all its issues, it's produced a really good drinking AIPA. Carbonation is dense and fine. The beer is really clear, the hop flavours and aromas shine, and the yeast in the bottle sticks to the bottom like shite to a blanket.

I'd be happy to use it again, but will make sure I obtain it somewhere where it's up to date and stored properly. It would be great to have some sachets on hand in the fridge as a back up.


----------



## beermeupscotty

warra48 said:


> I've just started drinking a batch of AIPA bottled 2 weeks ago.
> 
> As I didn't have any liquid yeast on hand when I brewed it, and MHB was in hibernation prior to the ownership transfer, I reluctantly called in to my local HB shop and bought a pack of M44 West Coast Ale.
> Didn't realise until I got home it was within weeks of its best before date, and it had been stored at ambient temperature all that time.
> I tried to rehydrate it, but it did bugger all. In desperation, I pitched it in any case into an 18 litre batch. It took two days before it showed any action, but then it seemed to slowly chug along. Ultimately it took it from 1.057 to 1.013, which means about 76% apparent attenuation. It seems to be a real top cropper with a thick layer on top of the brew, even after two weeks in the fermenter.
> In spite of all its issues, it's produced a really good drinking AIPA. Carbonation is dense and fine. The beer is really clear, the hop flavours and aromas shine, and the yeast in the bottle sticks to the bottom like shite to a blanket.
> 
> I'd be happy to use it again, but will make sure I obtain it somewhere where it's up to date and stored properly. It would be great to have some sachets on hand in the fridge as a back up.


Good to hear. I have some of the M44 WC Ale yeast which is near it's BB date. I actually bought a second sachet, thinking I'd have to pitch 2 packs but, hearing your case, I reckon I'll just put my faith in the single sachet.

"...like shite to a blanket." Hahaha. Indeed.


----------



## pist

Ive had long lag times no matter whether I pitch directly or rehydrate. One I bought didn't even fire and I had to pitch some coopers yeast due to LHBS being shut. Both times the packets have been well within their use by dates. My wort is always well oxygenated from pouring the cube into the fermenter.
In my opinion the mangrove jacks yeast isn't up to scratch and I wont be using it again.


----------



## Forever Wort

My best results have so far been with the M10, M27 and M84. Great yeasts.


----------



## fletcher

pist said:


> Ive had long lag times no matter whether I pitch directly or rehydrate. One I bought didn't even fire and I had to pitch some coopers yeast due to LHBS being shut. Both times the packets have been well within their use by dates. My wort is always well oxygenated from pouring the cube into the fermenter.
> In my opinion the mangrove jacks yeast isn't up to scratch and I wont be using it again.


have you ever tasted a beer with one though? they're amazing. more importantly, how are you determining your yeast "firing"? even though it looks to be lagging, the yeast is likely still in the growth phase. people, myself included, have reported up to three full days with low to no krausen and then things rolling along smoothly. how is your LHBS storing them?


----------



## lukencode

fletcher said:


> tasting a porter now i made with the m07 british ale yeast. superb. really happy with it. fermented at 17C and there is just enough ester there to give the beer some yeast profile, but not overpower it. might even go a touch higher next time. i'll definitely use it again.
> 
> super impressed so far with m44 and m07.


Used the M07 British ale in a foreign stout and it turned out real well. Maybe just a touch under attenuated but pretty similar to what fletcher describes.

I have an english bitter coming up and am considering the m07 again or the burton union. Any thoughts?


----------



## fletcher

The Village Idiot said:


> How quickly did the 07 and the 44 ferment out? Looking for a quick grain to brain keg filler.


sorry mate, didn't see this until now. the 44 slowed a bit and took a good 2 weeks to be done, cold crashed and packaged, but i fermented at 16C which probably played a part. the 07 was done in 7 days, then crashed and packaged. fermented it at 17C. both taste marvelous but didn't smash through the wort super fast.


----------



## fletcher

haven't had a bad experience yet with these yeasts. am going to try the belgian ale in coming weeks in a wit. have people used it at the recommended 26C to 32C?


----------



## tiprya

I'm fermenting with the Belgian at the moment, just at ambient ~22 and it has dropped from 1.065 to 1.006 after 9 days (one rehydrated pack).

Flavour tastes good at the moment, lots of character but still has nice body. I think it will be a great beer after conditioning (but we'll see).


----------



## fletcher

tiprya said:


> I'm fermenting with the Belgian at the moment, just at ambient ~22 and it has dropped from 1.065 to 1.006 after 9 days (one rehydrated pack).
> 
> Flavour tastes good at the moment, lots of character but still has nice body. I think it will be a great beer after conditioning (but we'll see).


awesome! keep me updated mate. sounds like a winner.


----------



## IsonAd

I used the M44 in an American Brown (Janet’s) and it did ok – took a good 2 days to see any action, I was getting a bit anxious but it eventually kicked off with a 1-2cm creamy Krausen and got the 1.066 wort down to 1.016 – about where it was supposed to be. Tastes is a bit yeasty but that probably has more to do with me having dramas sucking up a whole bunch of yeast when racking to the bottling bucket. After a couple of weeks I pitched half the washed yeast from that brew into a 1.5l starter for 3 days and then into a black IPA at around 1.066 as well, it took off overnight and has a monster Krausen almost exploding out of the FV.


----------



## fishingbrad

I wish I had read this topic first. I put down a APA with US-05 Slurry & a vanilla milk stout yesterday with 1 packet of M07. Got up this morning the APA happily bubbling away but the stout has no action on the surface at all. So in my paranoia, I pitched the Thomas Coppers stout yeast. I hope this does not ruin the beer. Lag times makes me sooooo Paranoid.

Cheers Brad.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

A bit of extra feedback.

I've done two beers with M79 (Burton Union) - one a mild/bitter (I brewed a mild, had it judged as an ESB because I thought it was close enough to make it work in a comp setting) and the other a Russian Imperial Stout - made with a repitch of the yeast from the mild/bitter.

Bronze

Gold.

In that order.

So the yeast works well despite the lag (mild) and copes with a repitch really really well (RIS).


----------



## jyo

fletcher said:


> haven't had a bad experience yet with these yeasts. am going to try the belgian ale in coming weeks in a wit. have people used it at the recommended 26C to 32C?


Hey Fletcher.
I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds more suited to saisons with the high attenuation.

I think it may chew it out way too much for a wit. You want a bit of body.


----------



## fletcher

jyo said:


> Hey Fletcher.
> I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds more suited to saisons with the high attenuation.
> 
> I think it may chew it out way too much for a wit. You want a bit of body.


thanks mate. it's the only yeast i have for that grist 50/50 pils and torr. wheat so i'll put it down anyway. you reckon just mash a bit higher then?


----------



## jyo

I reckon. It sounds like a monster of a yeast.


----------



## mfeighan

For what its worth i have been using liquid yeasts for the past 5 years or so and recently have fell in love with the ease of dried yeast for certain styles of course. Last night i pitched the m79 in a ESB that i have brewed many times with 1469 and had good success. Will report on results.
I am not worried about this long 'lag time' people have expressed as i am confident with my brewing & sanitation procedure


----------



## lukencode

Mikey said:


> For what its worth i have been using liquid yeasts for the past 5 years or so and recently have fell in love with the ease of dried yeast for certain styles of course. Last night i pitched the m79 in a ESB that i have brewed many times with 1469 and had good success. Will report on results.
> I am not worried about this long 'lag time' people have expressed as i am confident with my brewing & sanitation procedure


Please do, I have an ESB in the cube that I would also normally 1469 but am tempted to try M70/M10 on it.


----------



## The Village Idiot

CCing an ESB on M70 atm. Was roaring away after 18hours. Fermented at the top end of the recommended range and tastes pretty good so far. Will report.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Forgot to add that the repitched yeast was collected a 600ml coke bottle from the trub, fridged it for a week and poured off the beer and chucked in the yeast and left the separated trub out.

Took off like a rocket.


----------



## Forever Wort

I am getting great results from M20. It's my new house yeast for wheats.


----------



## technobabble66

Can you elaborate FW on the wheat yeast?
What sort of aromas & flavours are you getting (w corresponding FV temp regime)? 
Any other particular positives?
Thanks!


----------



## WitWonder

Mikey said:


> For what its worth i have been using liquid yeasts for the past 5 years or so and recently have fell in love with the ease of dried yeast for certain styles of course. Last night i pitched the m79 in a ESB that i have brewed many times with 1469 and had good success. Will report on results.
> I am not worried about this long 'lag time' people have expressed as i am confident with my brewing & sanitation procedure


Yep, I was all about the liquid yeasts too but I find them to be such a PITA to prepare and frequently had issues with lag times and not finishing correctly. Glad to have found some dried yeasts that float my boat. I've made ESB's, APA's and a pseudo lager with the workhorse and they've all turned out pretty well, IMHO.


----------



## IsonAd

I am loving the way the m44 yeast sticks to the bottom to the bottles, much better than us05


----------



## Liam_snorkel

just kegged a 100% weyermann dark wheat which I used M20 in at 20 deg, bloody lovely, tastes legit. a little clove a little banana, a little something else. I used some orange peel & coriander so there is that element added to it as well. I'll push the temp next time to get a bit more banana.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Forgot to add pic


----------



## Tahoose

Have a pack of m44 sitting in the fridge, might give it a run with a mountain goat steam ale clone.


----------



## mfeighan

Just an update, pitched 2 packs in 45l of 1047og wort at 21c. Took about 24hrs till there was some *visible* activity. Upped the pressure to 14psi and upped the temp to 23c as i want some esters (and i like playing with my new toys) active fermentation has slowed right down so i would assume it is close to ready. Down side of pressurised ferments is hydro samples are a bugger to take so will take on the weekend


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Liam_snorkel said:


> just kegged a 100% weyermann dark wheat which I used M20 in at 20 deg, bloody lovely, tastes legit. a little clove a little banana, a little something else. I used some orange peel & coriander so there is that element added to it as well. I'll push the temp next time to get a bit more banana.





Liam_snorkel said:


> Forgot to add pic
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1411542051.983229.jpg


Also I forgot to add to my post before - I made a 1 litre starter for this the day before pitching. Kicked off instantly and hit FG in 3-4 days. 

Yeah yeah I know you're not supposed to make starters with dry yeast but if you want to bypass the lag time that everyone is talking about, there is your solution.


----------



## Tahoose

Liam_snorkel said:


> Also I forgot to add to my post before - I made a 1 litre starter for this the day before pitching. Kicked off instantly and hit FG in 3-4 days.
> 
> Yeah yeah I know you're not supposed to make starters with dry yeast but if you want to bypass the lag time that everyone is talking about, there is your solution.


Yeah I've never quite understood that, I suppose if you made a starter out of it, didn't experience any negatives from it and it performed well. Then who can argue with you?? I'm sure I'm about to experience a mass rage saying this...


----------



## mfeighan

if i was going to make a starter i would use liquid yeast. Its just the convenience of being able to brew whenever you like instead of planning up to a week ahead of time to make a starter and decant etc


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I rehydrate. It doesn't lag much for me.

The other thing is, if the dry yeast gives you exactly what you wanted, and costs half (or less) than the wet, maybe that's part of it too.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

No "making" of a starter as such, poured 1 litre into flask instead of cube. Pitched next day at high krausen so no decanting.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Liam_snorkel said:


> No "making" of a starter as such, poured 1 litre into flask instead of cube. Pitched next day at high krausen so no decanting.


So no lag time as Well?? ....lag time is essential though, please correct me.


----------



## Blind Dog

Liam_snorkel said:


> Forgot to add pic
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1411542051.983229.jpg


Hope that tastes as amazing as it looks. Don't suppose you'd care to share the recipe?


----------



## keifer33

Another to the list of lag time for M79. Pitched some re-hydrated yeast onto a 1040 wort and took between 36-48 hours to kick off.

It now has a good look krausen so no more need to worry. Looking forward to how it turns out.


----------



## DeGarre

Lag times? What lag times? After 3.5 hours airlock is making noises already. 2x Burton Union M79 to 1094°.


----------



## wobbly

Mikey said:


> Just an update, pitched 2 packs in 45l of 1047og wort at 21c. Took about 24hrs till there was some *visible* activity. Upped the pressure to 14psi and upped the temp to 23c as i want some esters (and i like playing with my new toys) active fermentation has slowed right down so i would assume it is close to ready. Down side of pressurised ferments is hydro samples are a bugger to take so will take on the weekend


If you haven't already try degassing the sample by tipping it between a couple of glasses a few times and then add it to you Hydro flask (Standard WW practice)

Wobbly


----------



## MastersBrewery

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> The Cider yeast is a cracker, you will not be disappointed.
> Nev


I used the M44 for a cider the other week. I crashed at 1010 for 2 days, was crystal clear, and has kept it's sweetness profile throughout, then again it only lasted 2 weeks. The other thing was it retained all the fruit flavour, I've have some cider yeasts strip certain flavours. On my way to get some more today.

MB


----------



## mfeighan

Ok im not too impressed with m79, as stated earlier the esters thrown are more belgium like than english ale. It does flocculate well and attenuated where i wanted it to. If i were to use m79 again i would probably use it in a belgium blonde as it would suit it well. I cannot say what the esters are like on the lower end of fermentation temperature but probably wont try again to find out.. I may also be biased because i know how nice this beer tastes with 1469 yeast, nutty and apricotty deliciousness.

Next try is M84, i have 4 packs to pitch on 42L of 1.059 wort. Will rehydrate and pitch at 9 deg this evening and ramp to 11 when i see some activity.


----------



## Tahoose

It seems that the m44 doesn't like the lower temps that us05 and notto seem to handle. Fortunately it's in a sealed fermenter (keg) so I can see there is some activity but gravity samples reveal that it's not alot of activity.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Blind Dog said:


> Hope that tastes as amazing as it looks. Don't suppose you'd care to share the recipe?


On my mobile currently so no specifics, but generally that's how I brew. It usually works out for me. 

100% Weyermann's dark wheat (OG mid 1.040's). Slightly lower mash efficiency than usual and heaps of break so be prepared for that. Mashed at 65/60 72/10 then mashed out at low 80's (bag drains easier at that temp). Bittered with something to about 20 IBU. A handful of wai-iti, peel of 1/2 an orange (no pith), & a small amount (maybe 5g) of freshly ground coriander seed in the cube.


----------



## keifer33

Mikey said:


> Ok im not too impressed with m79, as stated earlier the esters thrown are more belgium like than english ale. It does flocculate well and attenuated where i wanted it to. If i were to use m79 again i would probably use it in a belgium blonde as it would suit it well. I cannot say what the esters are like on the lower end of fermentation temperature but probably wont try again to find out.. I may also be biased because i know how nice this beer tastes with 1469 yeast, nutty and apricotty deliciousness.
> 
> Next try is M84, i have 4 packs to pitch on 42L of 1.059 wort. Will rehydrate and pitch at 9 deg this evening and ramp to 11 when i see some activity.


Have to agree with the Belgian-esc esters. I may try it again but ferment lower than the 21c I chose, to try and keep the esters lower.

Its interesting to see the different results people are getting with these yeasts though


----------



## anthonyUK

I mentioned the esters in the M79 thread but the other issues regarding clarity and flocculation I din't experience.
I used the M79 in what was an English bitter and although not to style, if I tell myself it is Belgium dark ale it is fine.
I kept the temps down so the esters are quite restrained.
I probably wouldn't use it again though TBH. The M27 though, I love it in a Saison-lite.


----------



## bradmccoy

BingBangBrewhouse said:


> Kegged the lemon peel saison fermented with belgian ale at 26C primary for 10 to 14 days then secondary at 28C for around 3 weeks. Super nice pepper & spice flavours, which went hand in hand with the lemon. I'm making an orange peel one this weekend.


So is this a bit of a saison style yeast? I'm looking at making a belgian strong ale. I'm thinking this might rip through all the fermentables and leave me with something too dry...


----------



## bradmccoy

Forever Wort said:


> My best results have so far been with the M10, M27 and M84. Great yeasts.


What did you use the M27 in?


----------



## mfeighan

anthonyUK said:


> I mentioned the esters in the M79 thread but the other issues regarding clarity and flocculation I din't experience.
> I used the M79 in what was an English bitter and although not to style, if I tell myself it is Belgium dark ale it is fine.
> I kept the temps down so the esters are quite restrained.






keifer33 said:


> Have to agree with the Belgian-esc esters. I may try it again but ferment lower than the 21c I chose, to try and keep the esters lower.
> 
> Its interesting to see the different results people are getting with these yeasts though


i found it stripped some of the hop flavour too did you find that too?
I have also noticed the esters have settled down quite a lot after a week(ish) in the keg but still very belgium


----------



## Blind Dog

Pitched M07 into a bitter at 1.038 on Monday evening, nothing 12 hours later but bubbling like mad through the blow off tube after 18. Tonight was already down to 1.012 but bugger all bitterness (calc 30 IBUs) although the flavours are nice - marmelade and there's a little spicy citrus fruit. Will wait to see where it ends up, but not too shabby so far


----------



## simmo1972

Does this 'normal' look for M44, it has been fermenting for 2 weeks and is around 1010.

It was a Blonde Lager with 1kg of dry malt, 200g of dextrose and also used some grains. First time using this yeast and grains but didn't expect it to be so thick.

Cheers,
James


----------



## kalbarluke

Used the cider yeast for a pear cider and it turned out nicely.

I also enjoyed the Newcastle Brown Ale yeast. I used the British ale and it didn't turn out so great.


----------



## keifer33

Mikey said:


> i found it stripped some of the hop flavour too did you find that too?
> I have also noticed the esters have settled down quite a lot after a week(ish) in the keg but still very belgium


Mine is settling down ester-wise but it is definitely hanging around.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Giving M10 Workhorse a crack on a DSGA cube, pitched with yeast and cube around 15-17C last night, after work tonight (~18-20hours later) there is a nice thick 1inch Krausen (temp controller set to 22C and it was sitting at 23C so plenty of exothermic heat)... Given the recommended range for an ale of 20-32C, figured would be worth an experimental crack which results in me having a keg, hopefully a tasty one before the weekend after next. Will post back results!

PS. they also state it can be used at low temps for a lager style... interesting yeast that's for sure!


----------



## Adr_0

is the M79 anything like 1275? 1275 isn't SUPER-estery but has nice pear and cherry flavours. it attenuates fairly well but really lets the malt come through.


----------



## mfeighan

Adr_0 said:


> is the M79 anything like 1275? 1275 isn't SUPER-estery but has nice pear and cherry flavours. it attenuates fairly well but really lets the malt come through.


It was super estery to start with but has subdued after 2 weeks in the keg, now that you suggest it (maybe you planted the seed) i can taste a little cherry and cloves definitely no pear


----------



## dent

I've brewed a few pale lagers with the MJ lager yeast. So far this yeast has performed excellently. Ferments clean, doesn't throw much sulfur even under pressure, and flocs out without too much hassle. Recommended.


----------



## wereprawn

dent said:


> I've brewed a few pale lagers with the MJ lager yeast. So far this yeast has performed excellently. Ferments clean, doesn't throw much sulfur even under pressure, and flocs out without too much hassle. Recommended.


What temp did you ferment at dent? Are lager yeasts known to throw more sulfur under pressure?

Edit- Getting some proper temp control and more kegs soon so i'm researching lager brewing atm.


----------



## dent

I find they do - probably just due to the beer self carbonating so it doesn't get flushed out with CO2 as much as it otherwise might. 

I start all my lager ferments cold - typically I refrigerate the wort so that I am pitching at around 4 degrees, preferably with the yeast at that same temperature. I then let it sit at 6 until there is signs of pressure, then I crank it to 14 until it is almost fermented out - making sure to catch the D-rest at 18 ish while there is still a little fermentables remaining.

Non-pressure would be the same but the bulk of the (much longer!) ferment would be at 9.


----------



## mfeighan

Mikey said:


> Next try is M84, i have 4 packs to pitch on 42L of 1.059 wort. Will rehydrate and pitch at 9 deg this evening and ramp to 11 when i see some activity.


Ok an update on M84, Took FOREVER to start ~6 Days, Gravity went down to 1022 so upped the temp to 16 for a d rest. 3 days at d rest only down to 1020 and no activity. I reckon the yeast has stalled (FFT went down to 1014).
Tastes clean, just a little too sweet. My problem is I kind of want it to be ready for next weekend. I have a stack of 2042 wyeast slurry from a munich helles in the bottom of my other conical I reckon i will just pitch that (after dropping the temp back down to 12) so it will finish up in time. Haven't had the best of luck with these mangrove jacks yeast, and it looks like i am back to making large starters for my lagers.


----------



## dent

I started my M84 non rehydrated into a 3L non-stirred flask (haven't gotten around to making a new stirrer). Was only a 1045 ish beer on the first run though.


----------



## mfeighan

As i said before if i were to make a starter i might as well use liquid yeasts. I was hopeful but it performs worse than brewcellar generic dried which i have had more success with

edit: i do agree it is nice and clean


----------



## dent

Yeah pretty much. Though at least the dry yeast doesn't degrade so quickly in the fridge before you get around to using it.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Mikey said:


> As i said before if i were to make a starter i might as well use liquid yeasts. I was hopeful but it performs worse than brewcellar generic dried which i have had more success with
> 
> edit: i do agree it is nice and clean


I wouldnt give up on it after the first fail, most have great success with it.
Maybe look at the process and find what may have been the cause, mash temps, ambient temps etc
I have just pitched an wyeast Oktoberfest which was spun up 3 times , still took 48 hours to show signs and that was with pure O2 pumped in.
I was getting worried though. :unsure:


----------



## hwall95

I have a Pacific Ale clone CCing at the moment that used the West Coast Ale yeast (because brew shop ran out of us-05) and taste pretty damn good from the fermentor. It took over a day to get going but once it did, it finished within a week. A nice, light all galaxy ale should be perfect for the warmer weather


----------



## fletcher

hwall95 said:


> I have a Pacific Ale clone CCing at the moment that used the West Coast Ale yeast (because brew shop ran out of us-05) and taste pretty damn good from the fermentor. It took over a day to get going but once it did, it finished within a week. A nice, light all galaxy ale should be perfect for the warmer weather


it will be a ripper. in my opinion, m44 is cleaner, sharper and more compact than us-05. i love it.


----------



## Mickcr250

Loving the m44 at the moment I did an apa double batch and fermented one cube with us05 and the other with m44 just dry pitched and I much prefer the m44 version, it really brings out the spec malts but doesnt take anything from the hops either


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Giving M10 Workhorse a crack on a DSGA cube, pitched with yeast and cube around 15-17C last night, after work tonight (~18-20hours later) there is a nice thick 1inch Krausen (temp controller set to 22C and it was sitting at 23C so plenty of exothermic heat)... Given the recommended range for an ale of 20-32C, figured would be worth an experimental crack which results in me having a keg, hopefully a tasty one before the weekend after next. Will post back results!
> 
> PS. they also state it can be used at low temps for a lager style... interesting yeast that's for sure!


So ended up fermenting over 12 days, was very young/green tasting. I think it was Acetyldehyde but yeah quite a prominent green apple tinge through the whole beer, lucky theres a couple pots left in keg so will age it for two weeks and see if it mellows out.

Not too impressed. I didnt see any benefit from using M10 in such circumstances.


----------



## Blind Dog

The bitter i made with M07 is now on tap. FA bitterness or flavour (calculated 20ibu challenger at 60, 10ibu Styrian in cube). Malt bill was a fairly standard 85% MO, 10% Munich, 5% crystal.

Really bland and boring

Keg hopped with 20g Styrian for 4 days to fix the flavour so it'll be an easy summer quaffer in a week or so. 

Doubt I'll use the yeast again though as I want complexity from my English yeasts.

Hoping to get a different result from the M79 pitched into a best bitter...


----------



## TimT

I've never had a problem using the M07 yeast, I would say of all the MJ yeasts I've used it's most flavoursome actually! And it seems to be a fairly decent attenuator, unlike some other ones (notoriously, the Newcastle Ale yeast).


----------



## Blind Dog

What flavours do you get from M07 and what temp do you ferment it at?

Keen to find a really nice English dry yeast and have failed so far to find one I really like


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Bland and boring ?
How long has it been in the keg ?
What was your mash profile ?
Whats your idea of a really nice English yeast ?
A LOT will depend on your mash profile and your ferment temps and its effect on the yeast.
Nev


----------



## TimT

A pleasant, mellow sour maltiness I guess you'd describe it as. It throws off beautiful appley smells during fermentation - I know it's considered a fault in the final brew, but I'd love to find a way to preserve them. I just bottled an M07 brew; and aside from all this, it also has a sweet, biscuity, slightly husky aroma - maybe some of the grain tannins? This will probably be much less prominent once it's carbonated and refrigerated, but. 

I tell a lie when I say I've never had a problem with it - when I started using MJ yeasts it's true I did; my first two M07 ferments took three days and five days, respectively, to begin fermenting. That's because I was fermenting without any heat source and the yeast just wasn't enthusiastic (it was autumn at the time, so the nights were getting colder). I learned to stop buggerising around with the yeast, made sure to rehydrate in water at the right temp (about 25 degrees), and placed the brew straight on the heat pad. Not sure what temp the heat pad is, but I'm guessing 20 degrees. I forgot about those little incidents.... however, in spite of the fact it took them a while to get going, the final brews tasted delicious.

I particularly like the British Ale yeast partly because it shines on its own, and a lot of my brews these days don't actually have hops, they have some other form of spice/flavour. So the gentle yeast flavours and gentle herb flavours go well together.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Bland and boring ?
> How long has it been in the keg ?
> What was your mash profile ?
> Whats your idea of a really nice English yeast ?
> A LOT will depend on your mash profile and your ferment temps and its effect on the yeast.
> Nev


Sorry this was for @Blind dog.


----------



## fletcher

used the M27 belgian ale yeast in a belgian wit. not my first choice of yeast but the only one i could use, and results for me are that it has to be a saison yeast. single infusion mash of 66C and it ripped it apart. got down to 1.004 before i crash chilled it to stop it. stupidly put another in a bottle and of course it gushed. i think it would have gone down to at least 1.000. they say to ferment at 26-32C and mine still chowed into it at 25C.

wasn't overly impressed. has some lovely belgian characteristics, and is quite peppery and phenolic, but stripped all the body from my wit. i like it to be at least around the 1.006,7,8ish mark. in any case, not a BAD yeast, just a saison strain i'm certain.


----------



## fletcher

fletcher said:


> used the M27 belgian ale yeast in a belgian wit. not my first choice of yeast but the only one i could use, and results for me are that it has to be a saison yeast. single infusion mash of 66C and it ripped it apart. got down to 1.004 before i crash chilled it to stop it. stupidly put another in a bottle and of course it gushed. i think it would have gone down to at least 1.000. they say to ferment at 26-32C and mine still chowed into it at 25C.
> 
> wasn't overly impressed. has some lovely belgian characteristics, and is quite peppery and phenolic, but stripped all the body from my wit. i like it to be at least around the 1.006,7,8ish mark. in any case, not a BAD yeast, just a saison strain i'm certain.


edit: i should say that the bulk of it is in the keg and tasting quite nice, just would have stopped it shorter by another few points for a fuller body, but apart from that, anyone using the yeast should consider mashing a LOT higher (if they don't like bone dry beers), or using it in a belgian saison!


----------



## Blind Dog

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Sorry this was for @Blind dog.


Was my standard bitter base - 85% MO, 10% Munich, 5% crystal challenger early and Styrian holdings in cube for 30ibu

Mash at 67C for 45 min, 72C for 30 and 78C mash out. Small sparge

Fermented in fridge at 19 ambient. Kegged 5 days after getting to FG

Tasted a week later and decided to keg hop as there was bugger all flavour or bitterness

Current Favourite English yeast is Bedford

I brew bitters a lot so hopefully have a decent grasp of what I'm after. Based on Tim Ts post above I'll be giving it another shot as that sounds damn nice

Was in the keg for a week


----------



## GrantSpatchcock

I've had another great experience with M07. It ripped through a fairly complex English Barleywine, 1.103 down to 1.024, two points lower than expected. Left it on the yeast for a month, and racked to secondary for bulk aging on some fresh hops tonight. Already tasted quite smooth, obviously needs some age though.

Being such a big beer, it's hard to comment on flavour, but I definitely got slight dried fruitiness and more than enough malt. It's certainly not in your face with yeast flavour, but it's clean, has let the speciality malts through and has no overly harsh alcohols, which is surprising after a month.

I'm happy with it. I've got it ripping though a huge RIS and big old ale at the moment, so we'll see how they go. But so far, I can't complain!


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

GrantSpatchcock said:


> I've had another great experience with M07. It ripped through a fairly complex English Barleywine, 1.103 down to 1.024, two points lower than expected. Left it on the yeast for a month, and racked to secondary for bulk aging on some fresh hops tonight. Already tasted quite smooth, obviously needs some age though.
> 
> Being such a big beer, it's hard to comment on flavour, but I definitely got slight dried fruitiness and more than enough malt. It's certainly not in your face with yeast flavour, but it's clean, has let the speciality malts through and has no overly harsh alcohols, which is surprising after a month.
> 
> I'm happy with it. I've got it ripping though a huge RIS and big old ale at the moment, so we'll see how they go. But so far, I can't complain!


umm love the big beers and if it works that well then I will give it a big go on a biggo.
How much yeast to wort ?
Nev


----------



## keifer33

Hmm might have to consider this yeast for a biggo beer in the works if it goes that well.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

keifer33 said:


> Hmm might have to consider this yeast for a biggo beer in the works if it goes that well.


Looks like I will have to put on a WA Biggo Beer Case swap ?
Nev


----------



## Mitchlj73

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Looks like I will have to put a WA Biggo Beer Case swap ?
> Nev


Ooooooh yes please!


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Mitch_76 said:


> Ooooooh yes please!


Ok


----------



## GrantSpatchcock

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> umm love the big beers and if it works that well then I will give it a big go on a biggo.
> How much yeast to wort ?
> Nev


I used half a pack to 5L of wort (I only brew in 5L glass carboys so I can brew en masse).

I'm looking forward to racking the RIS next week, it's 1.113 so I can't wait to see what it's down to!


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Thats done extremely well for a half pack.
A shame your in NSW or you could join the 2015 WA Biggo beer case swap.


----------



## mfeighan

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Looks like I will have to put on a WA Biggo Beer Case swap ?
> Nev


So we get 6-9 months notice?


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Mikey said:


> So we get 6-9 months notice?


More like 9-11 and now you have been told http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/83466-2015-wa-biggo-beer-case-swap/


----------



## mfeighan

done, and thread derailed


----------



## slash22000

Brewed an IPA with M07. OG 1.074 (mashed at 65ºC), added 2 packs dry, FG 1.010 five days later. I thought my hydrometer was acting up, checked it and calibrated, nope all good FG was on the money, ~86% attenuation. :huh:

Not carbonated yet so I can't comment on taste, but there's enough hops in it to kill a buffalo so I doubt I could taste much yeast character anyway.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Has anyone here pushed M27 belgian ale to high temps?

I just pitched it onto a low OG (1032) saison at brisbane ambient to see what happens. Got a heat wave on the way this weekend and won't be home to open the house up - so it'll be cooking in the 30's hehe. 

Will report back with results.


----------



## TimT

I intend to do exactly that over summer so I'll be paying keen attention Herr Snorkel!


----------



## tiprya

I fermented with Belgian Ale at ~26 degrees and got a lot of banana, which was a bit dissapointing to me.


----------



## anthonyUK

Liam_snorkel said:


> Has anyone here pushed M27 belgian ale to high temps?
> 
> I just pitched it onto a low OG (1032) saison at brisbane ambient to see what happens. Got a heat wave on the way this weekend and won't be home to open the house up - so it'll be cooking in the 30's hehe.
> 
> Will report back with results.


M27 is going to attenuate quite high at those temps. I would imagine with a low OG is going to end up pretty thin but I look forward to hearing how it turns out for you.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Yep that's what I was going for - something really dry but flavoursome. I hope the esters play well with ahtanum! (Beer is 100% ahtanum cube hopped). If it turns out shit I won't be too upset.


----------



## fletcher

Liam_snorkel said:


> Has anyone here pushed M27 belgian ale to high temps?
> 
> I just pitched it onto a low OG (1032) saison at brisbane ambient to see what happens. Got a heat wave on the way this weekend and won't be home to open the house up - so it'll be cooking in the 30's hehe.
> 
> Will report back with results.


i think it's a saison yeast mate. my belgian ale yeast RIPPED through a 1.042 belgian wit and got it to about 1.002 (mashed at 66). i don't mind it, it actually improved a bit with age. i think it'll be fine at those temps. mine was at about 25C. just tastes classic belgian to me.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

excellent. I mashed for full body to give it something to chew on, but still hoping it will dry right out (reading this thread suggests it will)


----------



## Phoney

I just pitched M44 with an expiry date of sep 2014 on an amber ale, 1.050. Hope she'll be ok!

First time I've used dry yeast in years.


----------



## fletcher

what are the reports on the bavarian wheat strain? i'm thinking of bashing up a quick german wheat for christmas cos my old 3068 culture stunk of vinegar when it was opened and i didn't want to risk it. any temps recommended for it, etc?


----------



## jyo

I've made 3 weizens with it and had good results at 17-18'. It doesn't throw a heap of banana, more a subtle balance of banana and clove at those temps. I really like it. Would like to try it up around 24' to see how it goes.


----------



## TimT

Got a MJ Newcastle Ale porter fermenting away at the moment. About a week ago I'd pitched the wort on top of the yeast cake for a previous Newcastle Ale ferment I'd done - my fennel and dandelion altbier. ,

I'd always been meaning to do a medium gravity beer at first on this yeast before pitching a higher gravity beer second time round - the low-attenuating character of this yeast meant that it would have to get a little exercise before it set to work on a higher gravity beer. Still, I wasn't expecting that my beer would come out at around 1.084 gravity (long story - basically I made larger portions than usual because I wanted to use some of the wort elsewhere, but then had to boil down the remainder to my usual quantities) - or that the yeast would at first not ferment at all! First day, nothing. Second day, bugger all. Third day, a bubble or two lingering on the surface. Fourth day, same. It only really started a langorous ferment on the morning of the fifth day...

I gave it a bit of honey/water solution to encourage it on its way once it was clear the ferment was underway. By the evening it seemed to have reached peak ferment. Now it's the morning after and I'm pleased that it still seems to be in the middle of peak ferment - my usual experience with this yeast is that it goes to peak ferment pretty quickly and then stops pretty dramatically shortly after that. This morning it still seems to be churning its way through all of those malt and honey sugars.

When it's slowed down a bit I'm going to give it another hit of honey-water - to encourage and reward the remaining, high-alcohol tolerant yeast cells, and to hopefully get a bit of the floral aromas from the honey that might be missed out otherwise. And again a day or so after that.


----------



## Edak

In the last few days I pitched a m44 on a white ale and two packs of m79 on an ESB (possible over pitch there as my OG missed the mark significantly for some reason) so we will see how they turn out.


----------



## Byran

I just kegged a beer I made with the british strain fermented at 15 deg. Got to my target fg and has a super clean smooth english type ester but nice and subtle at those temps. Love it


----------



## fletcher

jyo said:


> I've made 3 weizens with it and had good results at 17-18'. It doesn't throw a heap of banana, more a subtle balance of banana and clove at those temps. I really like it. Would like to try it up around 24' to see how it goes.


just tasting the wheat i made using this yeast, and i'll say i wasn't impressed from earlier tastings (1-2 weeks in keg), but holy shitballs has it come good now (~3 weeks).

really impressed with it. jyo you're spot on with the flavour characteristics; a very subtle banana and clove combination which lets the tartness of the wheat finish off the taste. not dominating, but a noticeable banana from the aroma too. this was fermented at 19C and i agree and will look to use this up around 22-24 next time for experiment's sake.

so far i've used m44 (american ipa), m07 (robust porter), m20 (bavarian wheat), m27 (belgian wit) and i'll happy say they make excellent additions to beers. the belgian ale yeast is 100% a saison yeast so that was the only one i'd reconsider a different recipe for. it didn't suit the belgian wit (came out nice, but was way too dry).


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Liam_snorkel said:


> Has anyone here pushed M27 belgian ale to high temps?
> 
> I just pitched it onto a low OG (1032) saison at brisbane ambient to see what happens. Got a heat wave on the way this weekend and won't be home to open the house up - so it'll be cooking in the 30's hehe.
> 
> Will report back with results.


 


anthonyUK said:


> M27 is going to attenuate quite high at those temps. I would imagine with a low OG is going to end up pretty thin but I look forward to hearing how it turns out for you.


 


Liam_snorkel said:


> Yep that's what I was going for - something really dry but flavoursome. I hope the esters play well with ahtanum! (Beer is 100% ahtanum cube hopped). If it turns out shit I won't be too upset.


 


fletcher said:


> i think it's a saison yeast mate. my belgian ale yeast RIPPED through a 1.042 belgian wit and got it to about 1.002 (mashed at 66). i don't mind it, it actually improved a bit with age. i think it'll be fine at those temps. mine was at about 25C. just tastes classic belgian to me.


 


Liam_snorkel said:


> excellent. I mashed for full body to give it something to chew on, but still hoping it will dry right out (reading this thread suggests it will)


sorry for the late reply folks - this beer turned out an absolute cracker. finished out at 1.002, but wasn't bone-dry. Heaps of flavour too, could easily pass as a commercial saison and punched above it's weight for a 3.9% ABV beer. Just pitched some slurry into another one with the same grain bill but different hop combo.

initial recipe here:

*Ahtanum Session Saison*

Original Gravity (OG): 1.032 (°P): 8.0
Final Gravity (FG): 1.002 (°P): 0.5
Alcohol (ABV): 3.90 %
Colour (SRM): 4.5 (EBC): 8.8
Bitterness (IBU): 20.4 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)

66.67% Golden Promise Malt
33.33% Wheat Malt, Dark

3.9 g/L Ahtanum (4.5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil)


Infusion at 66°C for 30 Minutes.
ramp 15 Minutes
Rest at 72°C for 10 Minutes
ramp 10 Minutes
Bag out at 78°C

Boil for 30 Minutes

Fermented at 25-30°C? with MJ M27


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


----------



## Liam_snorkel

And here's a pic of the first pour from the keg (22nd Nov)


----------



## Crusty

Nice drop Liam.
Where can I get me some of those glasses?


----------



## Kumamoto_Ken

Liam_snorkel said:


> sorry for the late reply folks - this beer turned out an absolute cracker. finished out at 1.002, but wasn't bone-dry. Heaps of flavour too, could easily pass as a commercial saison and punched above it's weight for a 3.9% ABV beer. Just pitched some slurry into another one with the same grain bill but different hop combo.
> 
> initial recipe here:
> 
> *Ahtanum Session Saison*


That recipe looks great, I'll try similar in the New Year. What's the new hop combo?


----------



## Liam_snorkel

a mate picked some up from the Belgian beer cafe (Brisbane) when it closed down, it was a lucky score.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Kumamoto_Ken said:


> That recipe looks great, I'll try similar in the New Year. What's the new hop combo?


new hop combo is one of those "cleaning out the freezer" combos.. so I'll be reserving judgement until I taste it, haha. Styrian goldings at 30, some galaxy & AU cascade (both flowers) in the cube.


----------



## mckenry

Batz said:


> I've used a few of Mangrove Jack's yeasts now, I hate long lag times and that is what I had with them all. Personal opinion here but I'm unimpressed with them, back to liquid yeasts for me.
> 
> I still have the belgian ale which I believe is one the best of the range, but I doubt I ever use it now.
> 
> Batz


I just used M44 US Ale yeast yesterday for the first time. Havent used dry yeast in years. Still nothing going on 24 hours later. Went reading and found all these posts. Bugger. I hope itll be ok anyway. Not a fan of long lag times and like Batz ill be back to liquid.


----------



## Dunkelbrau

Just kegged a big beer I fermented with M10 (1.105 down to 1.020). Very happy, I rehydrated 2 packets and gave a good dose of oxygen. Had around 7L of krausen within 12 hours.

Gave it a couple of weeks on the cake to clean up, tasted good from the sample tube (cloudy as mud). And will see how it is in a few weeks once it clears in the keg.


----------



## iambj

Dunkelbrau said:


> Just kegged a big beer I fermented with M10 (1.105 down to 1.020). Very happy, I rehydrated 2 packets and gave a good dose of oxygen. Had around 7L of krausen within 12 hours.
> 
> Gave it a couple of weeks on the cake to clean up, tasted good from the sample tube (cloudy as mud). And will see how it is in a few weeks once it clears in the keg.


You used oxygen and are happy with a 12 hour lag time? Try liquid yeasts, and your brew will be clear as well.


----------



## jyo

mckenry said:


> I just used M44 US Ale yeast yesterday for the first time. Havent used dry yeast in years. Still nothing going on 24 hours later. Went reading and found all these posts. Bugger. I hope itll be ok anyway. Not a fan of long lag times and like Batz ill be back to liquid.


Don't stress mate, it'll be fine. It's a great yeast, better than US05 IMO.


----------



## Screwtop

jyo said:


> Don't stress mate, it'll be fine. It's a great yeast, better than US05 IMO.


Use it frequently, a great yeast, rehydrate as per instructions and use at the rate of 1g/l and it will be away at 12hrs. 

Screwy


----------



## Dunkelbrau

iambj said:


> You used oxygen and are happy with a 12 hour lag time? Try liquid yeasts, and your brew will be clear as well.


Okay so firstly, I said within 12 hours, I don't sit and watch my fermenter with the fridge door open all day.

Second, I never said pure oxygen, there is oxygen in air, and I add oxygen with a sterile filter and pump.

Third, growth phase ("lag") is perfectly normal, I expect some growth in my yeast. In fact I want it.

Pitching rates expect growth in the beer, if you have no growth, you have minimal yeast flavour contribution. I personally pick my yeast strains (yes, both liquid and dry) based on what I want in the brew and pitch according to what growth rate I want.

Fourth, flocculation. Different strains have different levels of flocculation, I've had liquid yeasts that sit at 1 degree for 2 weeks and are still very cloudy. Its not a liquid vs dry thing.

I'm also aging the beer, so its got plenty of time to clear.


----------



## iambj

Dunkelbrau said:


> Okay so firstly, I said within 12 hours, I don't sit and watch my fermenter with the fridge door open all day.
> 
> Second, I never said pure oxygen, there is oxygen in air, and I add oxygen with a sterile filter and pump.
> 
> Third, growth phase ("lag") is perfectly normal, I expect some growth in my yeast. In fact I want it.
> 
> Pitching rates expect growth in the beer, if you have no growth, you have minimal yeast flavour contribution. I personally pick my yeast strains (yes, both liquid and dry) based on what I want in the brew and pitch according to what growth rate I want.
> 
> Fourth, flocculation. Different strains have different levels of flocculation, I've had liquid yeasts that sit at 1 degree for 2 weeks and are still very cloudy. Its not a liquid vs dry thing.
> 
> I'm also aging the beer, so its got plenty of time to clear.


Well perhaps I should apologize then.

But I won't, dried yeast is for lazy brewers or new brewers. I often hear other brewers who is so careful about there brews, then use a sub standard yeast.


----------



## Screwtop

Dunkelbrau said:


> Okay so firstly, I said within 12 hours, I don't sit and watch my fermenter with the fridge door open all day.
> 
> Second, I never said pure oxygen, there is oxygen in air, and I add oxygen with a sterile filter and pump.
> 
> Third, growth phase ("lag") is perfectly normal, I expect some growth in my yeast. In fact I want it.
> 
> Pitching rates expect growth in the beer, if you have no growth, you have minimal yeast flavour contribution. I personally pick my yeast strains (yes, both liquid and dry) based on what I want in the brew and pitch according to what growth rate I want.
> 
> Fourth, flocculation. Different strains have different levels of flocculation, I've had liquid yeasts that sit at 1 degree for 2 weeks and are still very cloudy. Its not a liquid vs dry thing.
> 
> I'm also aging the beer, so its got plenty of time to clear.


I concur........... You aerated not oxygenated, a good idea as a google search will indicate that oxygen is not as important when using dried yeast. Experiments I carried out years ago indicated this was of nil or negative gain. Good to see you are using yeast strain, pitching rate and fermentation management to achieve the desired outcome as far as flavour/esters, character and clarity etc.


Brew Well and Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## Dunkelbrau

iambj said:


> Well perhaps I should apologize then.
> 
> But I won't, dried yeast is for lazy brewers or new brewers. I often hear other brewers who is so careful about there brews, then use a sub standard yeast.


That's fine. You can believe what you wish. However a lot of the dried yeasts are the same strain as some other liquid yeasts. Just packaged in a smaller packet in a way that needs different handling. It takes me around 20-30 minutes to make a starter for my liquid yeast and 15-20 for rehydrating my dry yeast. I see no reason one is lazier than the other.

Good luck with your ignorant elitism. I hope it helps you brew good beer.


----------



## jyo

iambj said:


> Well perhaps I should apologize then.
> dried yeast is for lazy brewers or new brewers.


Put your monocle back in good sir! There are some great dried yeasts availabe. Using them makes you neither lazy nor new.


----------



## indica86

iambj said:


> Well perhaps I should apologize then.
> 
> But I won't, dried yeast is for lazy brewers or new brewers. I often hear other brewers who is so careful about there brews, then use a sub standard yeast.


Well **** me.
Obviously I have no idea and cannot make wort or ferment beer, fortunately my tastes are tuned to the lower end.


----------



## slcmorro

iambj said:


> Well perhaps I should apologize then.
> 
> But I won't, dried yeast is for lazy brewers or new brewers. I often hear other brewers who is so careful about there brews, then use a sub standard yeast.


Clearly going to make plenty of friends with that attitude.

Dry yeasts are also used by professional breweries, both craft and megaswill alike. But you know best of course.


----------



## iambj

OK so you guys are using dried yeast because it is better than liquid yeasts? No? Why then?


----------



## slcmorro

There are lots of reasons and sources as to why dried yeast is in some cases, superior to liquid yeast. They both have their place, and you're not a lazy or inferior brewer if you choose either.

Have a read of this linl http://www.beerandbrewing.com/liquid-vs-dry-yeast/ and perhaps have a think about how your posts and comments might be perceived by others.


----------



## indica86

I use dried yeast as it is convenient.
I have not read anything suggesting one is better than the other apart from marketing spiel or one-eyed fan boy commentary.

I have used liquid yeast as there is more variety.


----------



## mckenry

Screwtop said:


> Use it frequently, a great yeast, rehydrate as per instructions and use at the rate of 1g/l and it will be away at 12hrs.
> 
> Screwy


Yep, I rehydrated and used 45g for 50L (good enough to 1g/L). Oxygen at the same rate as I use for liquid yeast. Its going now. Strong ferment, but it did take somewhere between 24 and 36 hours to get going..
By all accounts, people are happy with the result. I expect a good beer, but I prefer my active starters. I get fermenting within 12 hours with them, sometimes less than 6. +24 hours was a bit of a worry.


----------



## fletcher

iambj said:


> Well perhaps I should apologize then.
> 
> But I won't, dried yeast is for lazy brewers or new brewers. I often hear other brewers who is so careful about there brews, then use a sub standard yeast.


lazy brewers? that's absolute bullshit.

on what grounds are you stating using a dried yeast is being lazy? how do you determine dried yeasts are sub standard? sounds like a case of "oh i tasted a beer with dried yeast and it sucked therefore all beers made with it suck".

would you also suggest biab brewers are lazy because they don't use a 3 vessel system?


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Don't feed the troll!


----------



## TheWiggman

Considering this is a thread about a brand of dried yeasts, whether they are advantageous to liquids or not is not a discussion worth having. 
Will be sure to give M44 a whirl in a future pale ale based on the recommendations in this thread, thanks gents.


----------



## Tahoose

I found the m44 nice enough for a pale ale, but I had it at ambient temperature at 14c and it was very lazy, the us05 however at the same temp fermented along nicely.


----------



## fletcher

Tahoose said:


> I found the m44 nice enough for a pale ale, but I had it at ambient temperature at 14c and it was very lazy, the us05 however at the same temp fermented along nicely.


i've never tried it that low. by lazy do you mean it stalled? was slow but fermented completely and/or took longer? didn't ferment?


----------



## Tahoose

It stalled until the temp rose by 1-2c. 

I wasn't concerned as it was a closed pressure ferment so I knew the beer was safe. Notto and us05 will work well at those temps.

Give it a try. Easy to use for a faux lager too.


----------



## Nibbo

It's recommended that the M44 shouldn't drop below 18c. Obviously it's going to slow down below this.
If you're wanting a faux lager, then use the M10 workhorse. I've found it ferments well at 14c.


----------



## technobabble66

Just a quick report:
I've used the MJ British Ale yeast, M07, in a few brews over the last 6 months. (from a single packet, so 2 of 3 brews were from reused yeast)
All of them have been great, so all up i've been quite impressed with the noticeable "British" element this yeast seems to bring to the game. I couldn't really say whether its ester profile is as strong as the liquid equivalents, but it's obviously of a similar nature to my nose/palate.
There was perhaps a slight lag in starting, but nothing i'd be worried about, and the first brew took a little long to finish fermenting (not from stalling, it just took a few extra days than i expected). However the results were easily worth it.
So if you're looking for a "British" profile with the convenience of a dried yeast, the M07 would be a great choice, IMO.


----------



## Screwtop

mckenry said:


> Yep, I rehydrated and used 45g for 50L (good enough to 1g/L). Oxygen at the same rate as I use for liquid yeast. Its going now. Strong ferment, but it did take somewhere between 24 and 36 hours to get going..
> By all accounts, people are happy with the result. I expect a good beer, but I prefer my active starters. I get fermenting within 12 hours with them, sometimes less than 6. +24 hours was a bit of a worry.


Hey mckenry, try it again without Oxygen. As mentioned previously experiments (from memory around 2007) using O2 and a DO meter. Ferment lag time was extended when wort was oxygenated (pure O2 via diffuser) to 15ppm. Much shorter when dried yeast was simply rehydrated. Results were as to be expected using liquid yeast, oxygenation of wort after innoculation to 15ppm reduced lag phase.

Brew Well and Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## Screwtop

Some good info here from Danstar.



> Yeast need a trace amount of oxygen in an anaerobic fermentation such as brewing to produce lipids in the cell wall. With out O2 the cell cannot metabolize the squalene to the next step which is a lipid. The lipids make the cell wall elastic and fluid. This allows the mother cell to produce babies, buds, in the early part of the fermentation and keeps the cell wall fluid as the alcohol level increases. With out lipids the cell wall becomes leathery and prevents bud from being formed at the beginning of the fermentation and slows down the sugar from transporting into the cell and prevents the alcohol from transporting out of the cell near the end of the fermentation. The alcohol level builds up inside the cell and becomes toxic then deadly.
> Lallemand packs the maximum amount of lipids into the cell wall that is possible during the aerobic production of the yeast at the factory. When you inoculate this yeast into a starter or into the mash, the yeast can double about three time before it runs out of lipids and the growth will stop. There is about 5% lipids in the dry yeast.
> In a very general view:
> At each doubling it will split the lipids with out making more lipids (no O2). The first split leaves 2.5% for each daughter cell. The second split leaves 1.25% for each daughter cell. The next split leaves 0.63%. This is the low level that stops yeast multiplication. Unless you add O2 the reproduction will stop.
> When you produce 3-5% alcohol beer this is no problem. It is when you produce higher alcohol beer or inoculate at a lower rate, that you need to add O2 to produce more yeast and for alcohol tolerance near the end of fermentation. You definitely need added O2 when you reuse the yeast for the next inoculum.
> If you prepare a starter culture you will need added O2. in the starter and perhaps in the main mash as a precaution. You will need to follow the precautions as mentioned above. If the mash is designed to produce 3-5% alcohol you may not need added O2. Brewing above that needs added O2.
> Regarding your comment about growing your own yeast that will not need added O2 in the fermenter; The Lallemand yeast factory grows yeast under a different metabolic pathway than you will have in your starter culture. We feed the media to the aerobic fermentation at a rate that will keep the sugar levels below 0.2% at all times to maintain the Pasteur Effect. This builds cell mass with minimum to no alcohol production. As the sugar level rises above 0.2% the Crabtree Effect begins and no matter how much air you feed the fermentation, alcohol + CO2 are the main by-products. Your starter culture will have a much higher level of sugar. You will produce some cell mass but mostly alcohol and CO2 no matter how much air you add by stirrer or bubbles.
> *Dr. Clayton Cone*


----------



## technobabble66

Thanks screwy. Good find!


----------



## technobabble66

For the record, I pitched a M27 Belgian Ale yesterday, at ~24°C, with the fermenter fridge set to 25°C. Some brief, vigorous stirring occurred.
About 8-10 hrs later, the initial stages of krausen were present. Shortest lag time i think i've ever had. FV now set to 27°C, so we'll see how this goes. Unfortunately i broke my hydrometer at the cleaning up stage (luckily it wasn't earlier!) so i can't check it's progress more accurately.
And yes, i did rehydrate (at ~30°C).


----------



## Topher

Wanted to give the yeast a try but I only have 1 pack of m44, for 25litres of 1055wort. This is well below the 1g/litre recommended here. 

I do also have a pack of Us05 here. Anyone tried blending different yeast brands? Is one pack per batch a serious underpitch? Should I just get another pack?


----------



## TimT

You could get another pack or just build up the yeast's strength by pitching it into a light beer at 22 L, then drain that off when fermented and pitch a stronger beer on top of that.... etc.

Alternatively, I wonder if you could do something like this? Start the yeast off on half 25 L. When you see it's activate, feed the yeast (and the beer) by adding portions of your wort every day or so, nudging the yeast up to higher alcohol tolerances and encouraging it to keep dividing. Like you'd do with a yeast starter when building up cell counts.


----------



## fletcher

Topher said:


> Wanted to give the yeast a try but I only have 1 pack of m44, for 25litres of 1055wort. This is well below the 1g/litre recommended here.
> 
> I do also have a pack of Us05 here. Anyone tried blending different yeast brands? Is one pack per batch a serious underpitch? Should I just get another pack?


personally i reckon you'll be okay. it will lag (the m44) but if you're concerned just use the us-05 or to give you piece of mind, grab another pack. then it'll stop you from worrying


----------



## technobabble66

Quick update on my latest brew.

First time i've used M27.
My mash schedule was slightly cocked up - overshot the sacch step to 70°C for a few mins before dropping it back to 64-5°C.

FWIW, after 5 days the M27 has dropped the wort from 1.045 to 1.004 - attenuation of ~86%, i think.
The FV's been gradually ramped from 24°C for the first 24hrs to 29°C over the last 24hrs


----------



## Spiesy

iambj said:


> Well perhaps I should apologize then.
> 
> But I won't, dried yeast is for lazy brewers or new brewers. I often hear other brewers who is so careful about there brews, then use a sub standard yeast.


Sorry mate, but that's a pretty dumb post. 

Would you say Mountain Goat, Kooinda and a lot of other professional brewers who consistently turn out quality beers are "lazy" and don't know what they doing?


----------



## tugger

I found this. 
http://youtu.be/xuaK_hPFqn8


----------



## stux

Used the M07 in a Celtic Red Ale a few months ago. After only using spun up started from WYeast for a few years it was the slowest start I've expierenced in years! 36 hrs or so, but granted I didn't rehydrate.

Anyway, it finished soon enough and ended up a nice malty beverage.

Since then I've used the M02 Cider a couple of times and am about to use it again. I find it creates a nice clean cider which is quick to get drinking after kegging. I leave it for about 6 weeks in the fermenter and it gets to about 0.098 or 99. Keg and carb. First few days its tastes a bit like a champagne/wine yeast, but it quickly drops clear and then just tastes like a nice clean cider.

It does tend to lose its zing after a month or two in the keg, but it never lasts that long anyway.

Which is why I'm putting another one on tonight 

Also have a packet of M79 to try later.

I read on another forum that people were thinking the M44 US West Coast was actually (or substantially similar to) PacMan


----------



## Liam_snorkel

I pitched 2 packs of rehydrated M44 (US West Coast) onto a 1.066 IPA - at 20deg - took almost 2 days to show any *visible* signs of fermentation (I didn't check gravity at that stage) - now, a week from pitching it seems to have finished at an apparent attenuation of 76%, I'm happy with that. WIll give it another day & cold crash it.


----------



## jyo

I'm not crazy for cider, but the two ciders I've made with the M02 have been enjoyed by all. Clean, crisp and refreshing.


----------



## IsonAd

M44 in a 1.060 amber. 36hrs and still no activity. If there's still nothing in the morning I'm pitching us05. I really like this yeast but by crikey the lag times make me nervous


----------



## IsonAd

OK so I got impatient and hydrated some Us05 only to find only 30mins after initially checking that krausen was starting to form... WTF.... Half an hour. I chucked half the US05 in for good measure anyway. Will teach me for being so impatient


----------



## IsonAd

Deleted double post


----------



## chopdog

First time pitching the west coast ale yeast, pitched 2 packets into 23l 1.062 wort. 2 days gone and no activity!!!! Is there a bad batch maybe?? I have just given it a good stir and I'll leave it out of the ferm fridge for a couple of hours, if nothing by tomorrow arvo I'll be hitting it with us05.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

it should pick up soon man, see my earlier post. it didn't _appear_ to do much for the first two days, but hammered through it for the next 4-5


----------



## chopdog

Hope so, didn't have time for a starter that's why I pitched 2 packets. Thought it may have been out of date but best before is 2/16


----------



## Liam_snorkel

I'm going to be repitching some of the slurry into a pale this week, will see if it behaves differently


----------



## chopdog

Just updating, came home from work this arvo and to my surprise I have krausen!!!!


----------



## indica86

Bavarian Wheat and British Ale pitched yesterday and krausen this morning.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Also had a quick start with bavarian wheat the other week. Tastes fantastic also.


----------



## jyo

Out of all the MJ range I've tried, the Yankee M44 is the only one that has been frighteningly slow to start for me. There should be a disclaimer on the M44 pack: _Stop ******* stressing. It will start and finish!_

Just cracked a keg of saison using the Belgian Ale. I'm really happy with it. No fermentation fridge, so kept in an esky full of water @ 26'. Finished up in about a week.
Really decent fruity and slightly tart flavours, typical aromas for Belgian saison yeast, and it chewed the wort from 1045-1002 yet has a beautiful mouth feel and not overly dry at all. This ticks all the boxes for me.


----------



## stux

Pitched another cider. rehydrated on stir plate. 56hr lag time. 

Pitched wy1332 as well in another batch before work, kraussen when I got back.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Liam_snorkel said:


> I pitched 2 packs of rehydrated M44 (US West Coast) onto a 1.066 IPA - at 20deg - took almost 2 days to show any *visible* signs of fermentation (I didn't check gravity at that stage) - now, a week from pitching it seems to have finished at an apparent attenuation of 76%, I'm happy with that. WIll give it another day & cold crash it.





Liam_snorkel said:


> I'm going to be repitching some of the slurry into a pale this week, will see if it behaves differently





jyo said:


> Out of all the MJ range I've tried, the Yankee M44 is the only one that has been frighteningly slow to start for me. There should be a disclaimer on the M44 pack: _Stop ******* stressing. It will start and finish!_


Pitched 1/2 a cup of m44 slurry into 20deg wort last night and it fired up overnight. Krausen building in under 12 hrs. So there we go, it likes a re-pitch!


----------



## Tahoose

Yep if/when I use m44 again I'll be breaking the rules and making a small starter just to get the yeast busy.


----------



## IsonAd

Liam_snorkel said:


> Pitched 1/2 a cup of m44 slurry into 20deg wort last night and it fired up overnight. Krausen building in under 12 hrs. So there we go, it likes a re-pitch!


Have to agree. Slow-motion on first pitch and fast-forward when re-pitched. Really like the clean ferment from this yeast, is a close second to liquid 001/1056 for me.


----------



## TheWiggman

There's scant detail on M10 Workhorse but I bit the bullet and put together an 'Australian Bitter Ale' today. Along the lines of the typical Aussie lager before it became a lager. Note that at age 32, I've never tasted one except Emu Bitter (assuming it's an ale, says it is). I will shamefully admit I appreciated it. 
I have a family wedding coming up and the next day I was encouraged to put a keg on by the groom. The family are lager drinkers through and through. CUB or bust, Carlton Draught being the staple, and if it ain't CUB it's Peroni. I had some Carlsbergs there some years ago and I was told "take them with you, we won't drink them" after leaving some in the fridge courteously.

I've been battling what to make. With time being critical, I took some inspiration from dent's Aussie Bitter Ale. He noted that with 20% sugaz it was a bit flavourless and not much was really going on. Also said the cluster flowers didn't do much. So considering, I decided to mash at 66 to maintain a bit of body and keep it AG. Also the M10 apparently has good attenuation so that should keep it in check.

23l 80% eff, no-chill

4.10 kg JW pilsner
0.21 kg KW light crystal
0.10 kg acidulated
5g calcium chloride

22g Pride of Ringwood pellets 9% FWH
25g Cluster flowers 5.3% (2011 crop) at whirlpool

55 - 66 - 72 - 78 mash steps.

IBU 25-odd, 4.6% ABV assuming OG 1.045 and FG 1.011

I wanted the classic PoR boldness and Cluster hit. I pulled a few of the flowers out after inhaling some pretty assertive earthy Cluster aroma, for fear of overpowering it.
Will ferment at 16°C and give some nutrient and 02 to get things moving.

From the MG specs I noted: "... low acidity in the finished beer makes this yeast strain suitable for most beer styles although hopping rates will need to be monitored closely to achieve the flavour and aroma required." I'm not really sure what this means for this kind of beer style. I'll see what the punters report back and whether or not it's too hoppy. Hopefully it'll be clean enough for the devotees to knock back but have enough flavour to raise some eyebrows.


----------



## TheWiggman

Signs of fermentation in 12h, 36h 30mm of krausen. Pitched at 22°C and chilled to 16.5°C overnight. This yeast seem to go alright at low temps.


----------



## indica86

Bavarian Wheat smashed a White IPA.
British Ale smashed a big rye.


----------



## TheWiggman

TheWiggman said:


> ... M10 Workhorse ...


Checked it last night and it seems to be finished at 1.017.

Got down to 1.020 4 days after pitching at 16.5°C. 
Raised to 17...20°C over next 3 days.
Was 1.017 at day 5.
Gave it a stir on Sunday (day 7)
No change yesterday.

I'm pretty confident it's finished but that's only 62% AA and 3.7% ABV. I can't explain the high FG. A 1h 66°C mash isn't outrageous. Seems to have stalled but I did my best to help it along and gave it both yeast nutrient and O2.
The sample was very cloudy as well, so plenty of yeast in suspension in the sample (but often yeast settles in the sediment reducer). It began to separate while sitting on the bench. I'm cold crashing now, will geletine, then keg and bottle. I'm going to keg prime using sugar to up the ABV a touch.

The smell is bloody brilliant - almost exactly like a Melbourne Bitter. It promises lots of mouse piss but tastes quite clean and full bodied. Not a bad beer, but not great and sits in no man's land at the moment.


----------



## indica86

Recipe: Untitled Recipe
Brewer: Grumpy
Style: Robust Porter

MJ's British Ale M07.

Rehydrated - in water - the yeast and pitched yesterday. Signs of impending fermentation in 3 hours. The yeast appeared on the surface and was actively reproducing. Full krausen within 8 hours. What a cracker of a yeast!


----------



## Lecterfan

Trying to look around and do some research...I want to ferment Belle saison and MJ Belgian side by side, but I prefer Belle saison at around 22/23c and MJ recommend well over 26c for their strain...

What's the lowest anyone has fermented MJ Belgian at (and had good results)???


----------



## TimT

^Interested in this last question. I was planning on doing some saison ferments over summer during a heatwave to really get the esters crankin', but it turned out to be an unusually cool and temperate summer. Now I'm wondering if I should give them away...!


----------



## antiphile

Lecterfan said:


> Trying to look around and do some research...I want to ferment Belle saison and MJ Belgian side by side, but I prefer Belle saison at around 22/23c and MJ recommend well over 26c for their strain...
> 
> What's the lowest anyone has fermented MJ Belgian at (and had good results)???


Not really an answer to your question, but have you thought of trying WLP568? I've been working up the courage to try my first saison, have done some research, but it looks like the summer window has pretty well finished for me. Definately next summer though. With all the good comments I read on WLP568, this is the one I'll be starting with for the virgin batch.

BTW. In terms of MJs, I'm about to bottle a Scotch Ale that used MJ Newcastle Dark Ale and am quite impressed with that one. 70 to 24 points in 3 days, finished at 1.021 at 7 days, and lovely flavours.


----------



## Lecterfan

Thanks for the thoughts, antiphile, but I have a dedicated ferment fridge and stc temp controller so I don't need to factor summer into my equation. I have a 50L output so I brew double batches and ferment them side by side and am keen to use MJ Belgian as it is the only saison yeast I've not yet used and have 2 packs sitting in the fridge ready to go. Don't wait for courage, get brewing!



Lecterfan said:


> Trying to look around and do some research...I want to ferment Belle saison and MJ Belgian side by side, but I prefer Belle saison at around 22/23c and MJ recommend well over 26c for their strain...
> 
> What's the lowest anyone has fermented MJ Belgian at (and had good results)???


^Anyone have thoughts on this specifically?


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Pretty sure I've done one in the low 20s, no notes but I don't remember it being any less tasty. Sorry for my rubbish memory.


----------



## WitWonder

TheWiggman said:


> Signs of fermentation in 12h, 36h 30mm of krausen. Pitched at 22°C and chilled to 16.5°C overnight. This yeast seem to go alright at low temps.
Click to expand...

Why would you pitch high and drop the temp? I'd be looking at this as the reason your ferment stalled.

I've never really grasped this, particularly such a large drop and with ale yeasts. I always favor starting cool and raising the temp a degree or two every 48hrs after the first 3days with the final temp about 2 degrees over your target temp.


----------



## technobabble66

FWIW, i've brewed the Belle Saison twice and M27 once.
The 2 Belles (2nd was rinsed of the first) i started at ~20°C for the first day or so then ramped steadily to 25-6°C on day 3-4 (~50-60% fermented out). This resulted in 82% attenuation, and seemed to have a bit/moderate flavour impact.
The M27 was pitched at 25°C. It was ramped to 27°C the next day, then to 28°C the day after. 2 days later got it up to 30°C for 2 days, then gradually dropped to 21°C. This attained 94% attenuation (!!), the last few points of which were chewed out after it dropped to 21-2°C. Crazy attentuative power. I did a 65°C mash for 50mins that dropped to 63°C by then end of it, however i'd also accidentally hit 70°C while getting it to 65°C, so had to drop it down for the sacch step. It was probably at 70°C for a 5 minutes. I'm guessing that all helped achieve such a high attenuation, but i would've thought it'd just get an extra few %'s. The resulting beer had a moderate flavour/aroma impact from the yeast. Luckily i'd done a recipe that was quite malty and aimed somewhat at a Leffe Blonde, so it hasn't come out too thin, etc. 

I was very happy with both yeasts, though i'll probably have a crack at the M27 in the next belgian attempt.

For doing the side-by-side, i'd maybe try pitching at 23°C, then move it up a degree a day up to 28-30°C. Seems a safeish way of doing it while still getting some yeastie goodness. Otherwise i'd start at 25°C, 27°C after 24hrs, then gradually up to 30°C. Its certainly fine for M27!


----------



## TheWiggman

WitWonder said:


> Why would you pitch high and drop the temp? I'd be looking at this as the reason your ferment stalled.
> 
> I've never really grasped this, particularly such a large drop and with ale yeasts. I always favor starting cool and raising the temp a degree or two every 48hrs after the first 3days with the final temp about 2 degrees over your target temp.


The ambient temp was 22°C, so I pitched it at that and then put it in the fridge. I'd be surprised if that would have anything to do with a stalled ferment. Any evidence to the contrary is welcome. 
A refractometer reading on kegging showed the FG was actually around 1.014. That was after 24h gelatine and a cold crash. Odd.


----------



## indica86

Mjs Belgian I have used in a Leffe Brune of all things. I believe it was at 20° and was lovely. That was a while ago.
I have used it twice recently is ambient ferments and the one that is ready is great, nicely tart and finished well. The re pitch finished very fast an @ 1006.


----------



## mkj

Both batches I've brewed with Burton Union have taken a pretty long time for the yeast to clear - anyone else found that?


----------



## Topher

Got the Belgium ale in at the Moment, knocked 15 points off in the first 24hours, big krausen ring on the fermenter, but must have fallen just as quick. Now a nice thin layer. 

1038, rehydrated 1 pack. Pitched at 26, but set the fridge to 24.5 to start. 

tastes malty, slight peeper taste. Might bump it up a few degrees tomorrow.


----------



## TheWiggman

mkj said:


> Both batches I've brewed with Burton Union have taken a pretty long time for the yeast to clear - anyone else found that?


Did one with this yeast, was pretty cloudy until the last few pours from the keg. Better Red Than Dead recipe.


----------



## technobabble66

Topher said:


> ... slight peeper taste ...


bit musty & salty?
h34r:


----------



## technobabble66

mkj said:


> Both batches I've brewed with Burton Union have taken a pretty long time for the yeast to clear - anyone else found that?


Got an ESB going at the mo with MJBU. Report in a week as to how it floc's

What flavours/esters did you get from it - lots or clean?


----------



## fletcher

made an esb with the m07 (which i LOVED in a porter i made) and it really didn't shine as i would have liked it to. i fermented it higher, about 21C, whereas the porter i fermented at 17C. i've read it can get a lot lower also but don't really see the point. was hoping for more yeasty esters


----------



## Topher

technobabble66 said:


> bit musty & salty?
> h34r:


Better than a pooper taste I guess.


----------



## mkj

technobabble66 said:


> Got an ESB going at the mo with MJBU. Report in a week as to how it floc's
> 
> What flavours/esters did you get from it - lots or clean?


Lots, would have preferred a bit less. Most recent (brewed 26 Jan bottled 7 Feb) is quite strong, I think probably diacetyl plus some other stuff. 

The earlier batch from mid-December is now drinking nicely, has smoothed out a bit of the harshness it had - I was blaming that on too much Caramunich II, though perhaps it wasn't that. When I first tasted it had some definite bandaid flavour (which I've never got before, being a textbook description), all gone now. The second batch might come good - I thought it would be an improvement, the first batch I forgot about aeration with no chill etc.

4.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) 
1.00 kg Munich (BestMälz) (15.0 EBC) 
0.40 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) 
0.20 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 
20 g Target [11.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min 
50 g Fuggles [4.98 %] - Boil 20.0 min 
15 g Challenger [8.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min 
1.0 pkg Burton Union Yeast (Mangrove Jack's #M79 

23L, OG ~1051, FG 1013
65º mash, fermented 20º raising to 22º.

Going to brew with the Belgian Ale this week.


----------



## TheWiggman

TheWiggman said:


> ...(banter omitted)...
> 
> 23l 80% eff, no-chill
> 
> 4.10 kg JW pilsner
> 0.21 kg KW light crystal
> 0.10 kg acidulated
> 5g calcium chloride
> 
> 22g Pride of Ringwood pellets 9% FWH
> 25g Cluster flowers 5.3% (2011 crop) at whirlpool
> 
> 55 - 66 - 72 - 78 mash steps.
> 
> IBU 25-odd, 4.6% ABV assuming OG 1.045 and FG 1.011
> 
> I wanted the classic PoR boldness and Cluster hit. I pulled a few of the flowers out after inhaling some pretty assertive earthy Cluster aroma, for fear of overpowering it.
> Will ferment at 16°C and give some nutrient and 02 to get things moving.
> 
> From the MG specs I noted: "... low acidity in the finished beer makes this yeast strain suitable for most beer styles although hopping rates will need to be monitored closely to achieve the flavour and aroma required."


Tried my first sample from the bottle today and to be honest it's bloody brilliant. EXACTLY what I was going for. It's a mix between Carlton Draught and Reschs Draught. Clocked in at only 4.2% due to finishing at 1.017 and was bottle primed. Will be interested to see how the keg tastes once I move house.
Very clean yeast. This recipe is bang on for mega swill fans and I will definitely brew again. Won't even bother mashing lower, it tastes great* for a mid strength. 

* if you appreciate aforementioned beers

Quicker than a lager and tastes like a lager.


----------



## fletcher

TheWiggman said:


> Tried my first sample from the bottle today and to be honest it's bloody brilliant. EXACTLY what I was going for. It's a mix between Carlton Draught and Reschs Draught. Clocked in at only 4.2% due to finishing at 1.017 and was bottle primed. Will be interested to see how the keg tastes once I move house.
> Very clean yeast. This recipe is bang on for mega swill fans and I will definitely brew again. Won't even bother mashing lower, it tastes great* for a mid strength.
> 
> * if you appreciate aforementioned beers
> 
> Quicker than a lager and tastes like a lager.


how clean is it? i've read nottingham yeast can be fermented super low (12-13-14C) and works a treat for a similar style of faux-lager


----------



## TheWiggman

Hard to tell, I don't have much experience with it (only used Notto once). I suppose when I say 'clean' there are no funny esters or fruity flavours, just the PoR standing out and in the aftertaste. Some maltiness which doesn't linger.


----------



## technobabble66

technobabble66 said:


> Got an ESB going at the mo with MJBU. Report in a week as to how it floc's
> 
> What flavours/esters did you get from it - lots or clean?


So my ESB finished at FG=1.012 after 14 days (from OG=1.052).
This is attenuation = 75% (for a completely cocked-up mash schedule - let's guesstimate the equivalent of a main 65°C rest)
It was effectively crystal clear by then.
I've CCd 4 days later, and after 4 days at 8°C it seems about the same - crystal clear.
Admittedly i recirculate my wort post-mash which is what really clears it up, so that when the yeast drops out it's very noticeable.
Seems quite clean with maybe a little "english" estery element (I fermented at ~21-22°C) - so i'm a bit surprised there's not more esters in there, tbh.


----------



## technobabble66

Latest brew, a TOP clone, OG=1.064, FG=1.016-1.018 (72-75% attenuation)
I used M03, Dark Ale yeast.
2 packets into ~25L.
After about 30 hrs at ~20.5°C, it had dropped to 1.026.
That's roughly 60% attenuation! 
I'll see how it tails off, and report later.


----------



## takai

How does MJ British Ale yeast handle re-pitching.

I have my ANZAC biscuit ale currently fermenting on M07 now, and considering pitching an amber ale straight onto the existing yeast cake. 

Normally i decant some yeast cake off and make a starter, but feeling lazy at the moment


----------



## technobabble66

I re pitched it once or twice. It handled it well - quick take-off and good characteristics. Def recommend.


----------



## indica86

takai said:


> How does MJ British Ale yeast handle re-pitching.


REALLY well.


----------



## takai

Yeah, you guys aint wrong. Decanted onto yeast cake at 6pm yesterday, OG 1.049. Down to 1.013 by 7pm today! Just over 24hrs.


----------



## RobB

technobabble66 said:


> Latest brew, a TOP clone, OG=1.064, FG=1.016-1.018 (72-75% attenuation)
> I used M03, Dark Ale yeast.
> 2 packets into ~25L.
> After about 30 hrs at ~20.5°C, it had dropped to 1.026.
> That's roughly 60% attenuation!
> I'll see how it tails off, and report later.


How did this go in the end? From some reports on this yeast, that might be as much attenuation as you get, but I'm curious to hear if it went any further for you.


----------



## technobabble66

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/index.php?/topic/86008-Stalled-Old-Ale-help

It stopped dead at 60% attenuation. To be fair, on the 3rd night it dropped to 16-17*c and it didn't move since then. 
Another week of 22-23*c, still no movement. So I've prep'd some kit yeast to see if I can get it down a little further in a FF test. 
Largely my fault for selecting the wrong yeast, really. MJ recommend the British Ale yeast for an Old Ale, and really seem to recommend the Dark Ale yeast more for just Milds - where a 60% attenuation might work well. 
Annoyed the temp dropped, though. As I'm now not sure if it's stopped because of that or if it normally stops ~60% attenuation.


----------



## Topher

Got 1xpack rehydrated m44 siting in 16.5 litres of 1044 wort, pitched at 20, kept at a steady 20.........no action at all after 30 hours. 

My water for rehydrating was 30deg though before I brought it down a bit straight away. 

Perhaps I have put my yeast to sleep by cooling them down straight after waking them up. 

Trying not to worry, just gave the fermenter a mighty shake, and will check it every few hours....but I'm worried.


----------



## blotto

Topher said:


> Got 1xpack rehydrated m44 siting in 16.5 litres of 1044 wort, pitched at 20, kept at a steady 20.........no action at all after 30 hours.
> 
> My water for rehydrating was 30deg though before I brought it down a bit straight away.
> 
> Perhaps I have put my yeast to sleep by cooling them down straight after waking them up.
> 
> Trying not to worry, just gave the fermenter a mighty shake, and will check it every few hours....but I'm worried.


I did exactly the same thing 4 days ago with the same results, tho with 1055 wort, after 2 days I had no action and had to go to work. I find out tomorrow if it took off after I left. I have read plenty of reviews that state there can be a big lag time with some of the MJ yeasts and to memory I've never read where one failed to take off so I'm not overly worried. Fingers x'd.


----------



## Topher

Mine too! The Belgiun Ale was off like a fire cracker, and I have also tried the Burton.....it took off within a day and produced a nice drop.


----------



## indica86

British Ale is a fire cracker. Up and running well within 12 hours.


----------



## technobabble66

technobabble66 said:


> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/index.php?/topic/86008-Stalled-Old-Ale-help
> 
> It stopped dead at 60% attenuation. To be fair, on the 3rd night it dropped to 16-17*c and it didn't move since then.
> Another week of 22-23*c, still no movement. So I've prep'd some kit yeast to see if I can get it down a little further in a FF test.
> Largely my fault for selecting the wrong yeast, really. MJ recommend the British Ale yeast for an Old Ale, and really seem to recommend the Dark Ale yeast more for just Milds - where a 60% attenuation might work well.
> Annoyed the temp dropped, though. As I'm now not sure if it's stopped because of that or if it normally stops ~60% attenuation.


As posted in my other thread:

A quick update:
I faffed around for a while getting a mini-starter going to then do a FF test using left-over dried kit yeast. This seemed to drop the SG a few points - down to maybe SG=1.018-20.
So i then prep'd a large starter of the same kit yeast, only to discover as i put it into my FV fridge overnight to fire up, that there seemed to be some kind of krausen activity on the top of the FV again - basically some froth over 30% of the top. It looked like the original yeast may've been kicking back into activity. So i checked the SG this morning - it's down to ~SG=1.016-7 !!
That's ~75% attenuation, for the record.
Buggered if i know what happened - i can only assume that the little drop in temp on the 3rd or 4th day stalled the yeast. It's now been sitting ~20°C for the last 3 weeks, aside from another slow drop to 17°C over 4 days about 1 week after the initial stalling. So at some point recently, it's decided to wake up again. Fwiw, no stirring occurred, so it's either time or temp that must've been the key to it waking up.
...
I seem to recall reading Danstar Windsor was temperamental to temp drops and could stall fairly easily. Maybe this MJ Dark Ale is similar.
At least the hydrometer sample is tasting pretty awesome!


----------



## technobabble66

Final update:
It continued to ferment out to FG=1.012. After the yeast had fired back up again, i kept the temp ~20-22°C and the yeast happily continued munching away.
Which for the Old Ale recipe is annoyingly several points below where it needed to finish. 
To try to cater for these results in my recipe spreadsheet (thanks ianh !) i nominated 75% attenuation and dropped the mash temp down to 63°C. This hit all the figures i'd achieved with this brew.
I went the option of manipulating the mash temp because i have doubts that the MJ Dark Ale would attenuate much more than that - time will tell with other people's results.
Also, the mashing process i did basically went all to plan (55/67/72/78 for 5/60/20/2) up to the post-mashout recirculation. I hit 78°C for 2 mins, then pulled the bag, dropped it into a 2nd vessel and started up a recirculation for 20mins, as is part of my normal process. However, i then had to suddenly go to work for 3 hrs, so had to stop it there and just let it sit until i could return home, at which point i heated it back up to ~78°C, finished the recirculation and sparge and did the boil, etc.
I'd assumed the time at 78°C (2-10mins?) had denatured the relevant enzymes, however given how low it's attenuated, i can only think that the amylases have continued working for a while.
Just thought i'd post this anecdote partly for those who accidentally hit high 70's for a minute or 2 in their mash as reassurance that some enzymes seem to survive for a little while.


----------



## Tahoose

Right,

95%pils
5% medium crystal 
Mashed 90mins at 62
Mash out 78

Pitched 2 packets of rehydrated m84 bohemian lager yeast on to 21litres of 1:048 wort. Pitched at 8c: Fermented at 12c for 2 weeks and spent the last 4 days after a 1:020 reading at 18c.

Took a sample today, still 1:020.. 

Getting close to throwing some Nottingham in just to finish it. I was hoping to be lagering this by now..


----------



## indica

That's a shame, I have had no issue with that yeast at all. Fermented @ 10.5° then raised to 18° to finish. Lovely and clean.


----------



## doon

What are you taking gravity samples with?


----------



## Tahoose

A hydrometer, might check against another hydrometer that I have, I had a taste and it didn't taste sweet come to think of it.


----------



## Bribie G

I've decided to make a strong porter and have two packs of MO3 Newcastle Dark Ale that have been in my fridge for ages, but should be good and viable (I've kept yeasts for up to two years and they always fire up just fine).

However I see that MO3 is now "UK Dark Ale".

Anyone know if this is just a re-name or if it's a different strain?


----------



## RobB

Bribie G said:


> I've decided to make a strong porter and have two packs of MO3 Newcastle Dark Ale that have been in my fridge for ages, but should be good and viable (I've kept yeasts for up to two years and they always fire up just fine).
> 
> However I see that MO3 is now "UK Dark Ale".
> 
> Anyone know if this is just a re-name or if it's a different strain?


The description of its performance has not changed, so I would say it's the same strain.


----------



## brewchampion

Ive just started a mangrove jacks craft series dried yeast substitution / comparison chart.
Please contribute with your thoughts on the blog or in this thread.

http://mjyeastsub.blogspot.com.au/


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Why?


----------



## Lecterfan

I gave many of these yeasts a go and have not been inspired to keep at them...just a random thought from a jaded brewer.


----------



## technobabble66

Might be a good idea.

What would actually be truly useful is the estimated Attenuation of each yeast.

I actually liked the finish of the British Ale & Belgian Ale, maybe the Burton Union also. But i find it really discouraging to not know at least a reasonable estimate of the attenuation of each. If i was doing a truckload of (repetitive) brewing i'm sure i could easily develop my own estimate. But since i don't, and the FG is so very important when designing a recipe and Mash schedule, it makes it difficult to use these yeasts compared to others with more known attenuation.

Seems bizarre MJ doesn't recognise this and release their estimates for attenuations. Surely they'd have them!


----------



## growler

Techno...

On their site (MJ)... I'm sure you can find the link... each yeast variety is rated for attenuation and flocculation properties.

Admittedly only high/medium etc. ratings... but 3s of searching would have answered your question/assertation.

G.

or see Post # 20 first page pdf from AndrewQLD.


----------



## technobabble66

Yep. Did those 3secs when I first used MJs. Read it and all the other info they currently release to the public (I believe) ages ago. 
The other 2 main yeast producers quantify their yeast attenuation - significantly more useful info to a home brewer. By roughly a factor of 20. 
I appreciate MJ's disclosure of the general inclination of their yeast strains, however it's too inaccurate when you're trying to use calculations to estimate FG. 
What is "high" as a percentage? Or what is "5"?

I appreciate we have to deal with a few variables such that estimates are guesstimates, but dealing with such a large variable seems to be unnecessarily difficult considering the other 2 seem easily capable of producing ranges of 1-5% variation. 

Don't get me wrong, I like at least a few of their yeasts and would preferentially use them, I just find it unnecessary and a bit annoying/frustrating to not provide info that they most likely would have and is clearly useful to the homebrewer. 

A verbal description and a score out of 5 simply doesn't cut it when you need a quantitative estimate. 

Or rather, Why don't they release that info?


----------



## indica86

I have seen percentage estimates and they are not really that accurate.
Look at Belle Saison and it says High Attenuation. Does that help? Well yes.
Many factors change attenuation, temp, mash blah blah


----------



## technobabble66

True, but if your attenuation varies by, say 10%, then how can you calculate your FG??
How would you adjust your mash or grist to compensate?

I can allow for a 1-2% variation as batch-dependant, etc, but having NFI across a 10% range is a bit tricky.
FWIW, i've found those estimates the other 2 give to be 95% accurate. A point either way in FG is fine; it's when it drops an extra 5 points than expected that things go awry. I work fairly hard to nail all those other aspects of the brewing process to reduce those variables to 1-2%. I might as well use Yob's thumb, just throw stuff in as i go, and ferment in a bucket on the shelf if i'm dealing with such a large unknown.
And i can appreciate their are some exceptions like Belgian yeasts who are notorious for being temperamental high attenuators.


Again,
The others do it, so why can't MJ?
Not trying to rag on MJ (though it might sound a bit like it). I just don't understand why they wouldn't release that quantitative info.

Could anyone explain why they wouldn't?


----------



## brewchampion

technobabble66
The relative attenuation is supplied in the Mangrove jacks yeast booklet. But I find dried yeast is a tad lower.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0195/8620/files/MJ_Craft_Series__A5_Yeast_Booklet.pdf?1935

And I suppose i can see why they dont compare directly. Maybe (although I am guessing), 1/ they are not the same strains 2/ copyright

Although WY and WL already have some great comparison charts:
http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm
http://www.thegreatmaibockaddict.com/yeast-strain-sources.shtml

Liam, I think it is a good point , why? I suppose partly 1/ [SIZE=13.2px] This would give us all a better idea of to what yeast we are using. 2/ Geeky curiosity.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.2px]​So guys! What the hell is the M10 workhorse??[/SIZE]

http://mjyeastsub.blogspot.com.au/


----------



## vorno

I used the M44 about a year ago in an APA and took around 2 days to kick off and thought maybe it's just the way it works...
I pitched 3 packs rehydrated M44 into 45Ltr 1050 gravity APA @ 16 degrees on Monday morning and it had a full krausen when I arrived home from work 9 hours later.
I let temp rise to 20 degrees... Its now Thursday and gravity is down to 1016 and still going.. I overpitched slightly but thinking its all in the handling b4 you purchase it. I mashed at 67 and hope its not going to go too low now.


----------



## QldKev

Anyone tried the newest bunch of MJ yeasts? We got quit a few new ones at work, I'm eyeing of the Belgian Abbey and the good old California Lager as a dried yeast.


----------



## HBHB

QldKev said:


> Anyone tried the newest bunch of MJ yeasts? We got quit a few new ones at work, I'm eyeing of the Belgian Abbey and the good old California Lager as a dried yeast.


Not yet. Planning to run up a large batch of very bland beer and split it into 10 odd small ferments to try them all in 1 go should give a reasonable idea on flavours.


----------



## technobabble66

Sounds great HBHB. 
Eager to see the report on how it goes!


----------



## Matplat

Can't believe I missed this thread... I guess no-one has tried the california lager then...

I'm getting some and will be doing an Anchor steam clone with it in the next week or so...


----------



## RobB

Wow, they have doubled their range! When did that happen?

Although I see that the British and Burton Union strains are no longer listed: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0195/8620/files/72539_V1_MJ_CS_Yeast_Bk_lores.pdf?15349190601803791344

UK Dark appears on their yeasts' homepage, but is no longer in the product handbook. Strains listed below with newer ones in bold.

*M76 Bavarian Lager*
M20 Bavarian Wheat 
*M47 Belgian Abbey *
M41 Belgian Ale
*M31 Belgian Tripel*
*M21 Belgian Wit*
M84 Bohemian Lager 
*M54 Californian Lager *
*M15 Empire Ale *
*M29 French Saison *
*M36 Liberty Bell Ale *
*M42 New World Strong Ale *
M44 US West Coast
M02 Cider
*M05 Mead*

I'll admit that I like some of their strains and not others, but that's an impressive range.


----------



## technobabble66

Wow. Very impressive range now. Hopefully most of them (the new ones) are good ones - will be fantastic if they are.

I'm sure they wouldn't, but it'd be kinda funny if all the new ones are the same as the old ones, just with different labels h34r: :lol:


----------



## technobabble66

AND THEY FINALLY HAVE ESTIMATED ATTENUATION RANGES!!!
Hallelujah!

The essential piece of the puzzle... well, it's at least nice to have a number to enter into my spreadsheet now. Great to see that extra piece of info has been added in. Looking forward to hearing the results the new ones provide, they certainly sound interesting.

Now, to see if Full Pint have them on board........

EDIT: bit sad to see the British Ale is gone, i thought that was quite good. I wonder if the Liberty Bell Ale (or New World Strong ale) is the re-labelled British Ale...
And the Empire Ale characteristics sound rather like the previous Dark Ale strain...

:icon_offtopic: Double Team is a terrible terrible film. How on earth did Van Damme make so many films?!? He has got to be the worst of the 80's action actors.


----------



## RobB

Malty Cultural said:


> .......Although I see that the British and Burton Union strains are no longer listed: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0195/8620/files/72539_V1_MJ_CS_Yeast_Bk_lores.pdf?15349190601803791344
> 
> UK Dark appears on their yeasts' homepage, but is no longer in the product handbook........





technobabble66 said:


> I'm sure they wouldn't, but it'd be kinda funny if all the new ones are the same as the old ones, just with different labels h34r: :lol:





technobabble66 said:


> .............bit sad to see the British Ale is gone, i thought that was quite good. I wonder if the Liberty Bell Ale (or New World Strong ale) is the re-labelled British Ale...
> And the Empire Ale characteristics sound rather like the previous Dark Ale strain...


Reading the descriptions, it seems some of the old strains have simply been rebadged.

British = New World Strong
Burton = Liberty Bell
UK Dark = Empire

The descriptions are exactly the same, yet the titles couldn't be more different. How do British and Burton suddenly leap across the Atlantic and become New World and Liberty Bell?

Never mind, that still makes seven new strains.


----------



## brewchampion

Interesting observations Malty Cultural
The renaming seems very imaginative. But I think the original names weren't necessarily accurate the the first place.
Ive always suspected M07 BRITISH was WLP007 whitbread dry / WY1098 British Ale Yeast / Safale s-04 - Fermentis
But I originaly though "new world strong" Would be more like californian super yeast. , but after Maltys suggestion, maybe not.

I thought M79 Burton Union was WLP023 Burton ale WY1275 Thames Valley Ale, but the reports for this strain from MJ Dry was inconsistent. So maybe the new name is more accurate> This yeast got quite a bad wrap.
But originally I though "Liberty bell" Sounded like the Anchor Liberty strain: WLP051 California V Ale Yeast // 1272 American Ale Yeast II. Now that name rings a bell !!

UK dark = empire. Im uncertain about that. The UK dark also had a bad wrap, prob due to problems with vitality.
I think this new strain is an old dry strain.. muntons gold, : WY1968 / WLP-002. In large scale production already. Name well suited.

As for the rest...
A bit shocked, as my previous theory had been that these yeasts were repackaged.
Reason being: Yeast scientists have told me dried yeast is very difficult to make. (Something about O2)
But with the variety of this release. I dont think there is this many dried yeast available anywhere already,, is there?
Are they really making this themselves>??I do love to cross compare so here goes..

[SIZE=14pt]M76 Bavarian Lager.. another available [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Saflager S189 , or S23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]M20 Bavarian Wheat. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Safbrew WB-06 ?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]M47 Belgian Abbey ??? Anyone guess> Im not good at Belgian yeast[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]M41 Belgian Ale (M27 renamed ?) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Safbrew T-58[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]M31 Belgian Tripel ???? Wow ! cool![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]M21 Belgian Wit,, same as [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Brewferm [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"Blanche"?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]M84 Bohemian Lager, Saflager "[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]34/70"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]M54 Californian Lager [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Wyeast 2112?? (another anchor strain?)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]M15 Empire Ale as discussed, muntons gold?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]M29 French Saison YES !!! Should be a wine yeast by definition. WY[/SIZE]3711 French Saison Brasserie Thiriez
[SIZE=14pt]M36 Liberty Bell Ale, Cal ale 2, as discussed above ? Its a nice strain. [/SIZE]WLP051 California V Ale Yeast // 1272 American Ale Yeast II. 
[SIZE=14pt]M42 New World Strong Ale, I hope its [/SIZE]WLP090 San Diego Super Yeast because its incredible 
[SIZE=14pt]M44 US West Coast, well US05 would be cheep to repackage, but a little bird told me it was [/SIZE]wy1764 Pacman / rogue ???
[SIZE=14pt]M02 Cider , I have no idea [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]M05 Mead ?

sources[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]My page updating now...[/SIZE]
http://mjyeastsub.blogspot.com.au/

Other sites;
http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm
http://www.thegreatmaibockaddict.com/yeast-strain-sources.shtml
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0093/2142/files/Yeast_Substitutions.pdf?1928
http://pastbrews.goodloegroup.com/2013/11/dry-yeast-substitution.html
http://byo.com/resources/yeast


----------



## Bribie G

That's the second time the Empire has been renamed. Originally Newcastle Dark, then UK Dark, now Empire.

I found the UK Dark to be a rottweiler, chewed through a brew of porter in four days then dropped like a rock. I thought the fermentation had failed till I took a sample.

HBHB do you have the new range for sale yet or is the range still as on your website?

I put in an order over the weekend and if the new ones are available I wouldn't mind slipping a few in as a supplemental order before you despatch order #1.


----------



## indica86

I grabbed some new ones from there last week.


----------



## indica86

Belgian Wit rehydrated has taken off in about 4 hours.


----------



## indica86

Done, in 24 hours.
Wow, tastes good too.


----------



## Bribie G

Just eat the yeast then drink wort.


I've ordered the New World Strong yeast to try it in a Malt Liquor.


----------



## indica86

I might bottle tomorrow, should be ready by Sunday.


----------



## Matplat

Carbed in 3 days???


----------



## indica86

Joe King.


----------



## Bribie G

Indica is sounding a bit all over the place today. I reckon he's been sucking out of primary. As we do.


----------



## indica86

:chug:


----------



## onesnzeros

According to a foreign MJ distributor, the M29 French Saison is the M27 Belgian...
M36 Liberty Bell Ale is the Burton Union and M42 New World Strong Ale is the M07.
It's gotta be true, cos i read it on the internet.

M44 US West Coast is definitely 1764 Rogue Pacman though.
these are some other close approximations i use...

M20 Bavarian Wheat - Wyeast 3638 
M79 Burton Union - Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley or WLP023
M84 Bohemian Lager - Wyeast 2124 or WLP830
M07 British Ale Yeast - WLP007


----------



## brewchampion

onesnzeros said:


> According to a foreign MJ distributor, the M29 French Saison is the M27 Belgian...
> M36 Liberty Bell Ale is the Burton Union and M42 New World Strong Ale is the M07.
> It's gotta be true, cos i read it on the internet.
> 
> M44 US West Coast is definitely 1764 Rogue Pacman though.
> these are some other close approximations i use...
> 
> M20 Bavarian Wheat - Wyeast 3638
> M79 Burton Union - Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley or WLP023
> M84 Bohemian Lager - Wyeast 2124 or WLP830
> M07 British Ale Yeast - WLP007


Tx onesnzeros,
I found the post in question...
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7411736&postcount=17

Im thinking, that either
1/ The post is complete horse shit....
or
2/ Its true, and MJ dried yeast product is horse shit.

There is no way the Mangrove Jacks dried yeast could possibly be renamed into completely different beer styles.
If MJ think they can do this, then there product isnt worth putting into your brew. You wont get a beer any where near style!

I hope the renaming is BS anyhow.

Updated:

http://mjyeastsub.blogspot.com.au/


----------



## onesnzeros

well, unless the 'new' yeasts have the exact same descriptions, they're playing the Burton's got a new name game...


----------



## onesnzeros

same shit different day?


----------



## Matplat

Anyone tried the M31 tripel?


----------



## Markbeer

I just ordered a bunch including the tripel. There is very little info on them.

The Abbey and California common look interesting.


----------



## Matplat

Yeah I picked up the tripel last night, gonna throw it into a belgian pale so we'll see how it goes. I'm also gonna have a second go at an anchor steam clone with the cali lager next....


----------



## Matplat

So I dry pitched the M31 into 19L of 1.051 wort at 20deg on monday morning, by thursday afternoon it had hit 1.010. Fastest ferment I have ever had, and it tastes ******* delicious to boot! Apologies for the profanity, pretty excited about this one  will definitely be taking care of this yeast for a few generations to come.


----------



## Bribie G

As reported in the "Super Stout" thread, on Sunday I pitched a single pack of M42 New World Strong Ale into an oxygenated Foreign Extra Stout, and six days later it's cleared from the top, I'll leave for a few days and bottle.
It's been between 16 and 18 now back to 16. The initial fermentation was vigorous but not volcanic.
OG: 1.079

Highly recommend. I've had really good results with all their series so far and even confident to use the M76 Bohemian Lager in a forthcoming comp beer (a Classic American Pilsner). I used it with one of their own cans, the Bo Pils as a quick keg filler with an amber Brew Enhancer mix from the LHBS and it was hard to pick that it was out of a tin.


----------



## Adr_0

So I've tried the UK Dark Ale, which is now the Empire Ale I believe, next to WLP023 in a brown ale (Maris Otter, Cara-amber, heap of pale choc).

I would actually suggest the Empire Ale is closest to Wyeast 1469 (West Yorkshire) - has a very bready, nutty character in contrast with the pear/cherry of the Burton ale. Very clear and moderate attenuation - 65% with a mash temp at 68°C. Solid yeast, very impressed actually... assuming the Empire Ale is the same.


----------



## RobB

From my first experience with M29 French Saison, I doubt I could pick it in a side-by-side with Belle Saison. Hungry little bugger. Tasty too.


----------



## RobB

Malty Cultural said:


> From my first experience with M29 French Saison, I doubt I could pick it in a side-by-side with Belle Saison.


Actually, I take that back. My impressions are that a young M29 tastes like a young Belle Saison, but that they have mellowed quite differently. Belle seems to give me pears, pepper and lemon, whereas M29 has mild banana and clove.


----------



## SixStar

I just tested my pilsner that I made with Mangrove Jack's M84 Bohemian Lager.
Out of this world and I'm really happy. Was a little hesitant but it's really nice.


----------



## kalbarluke

Yesterday afternoon I made two worts, both extract: an IPA and a California Common Steam beer style. Used M42 for the IPA and M54 California Lager for the Steam beer. At 6am today the M42 has created a very healthy looking krausen and the airlock activity is vigorous. I don't think I have seen a yeast work so fast. Looking forward to tasting.
Has anyone else tried the M54?


----------



## RobB

kalbarluke said:


> ..........Has anyone else tried the M54?


Only a small thread, but it looks pretty positive: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89716-mangrove-jacks-m54/

I'm fermenting with it now for the first time. I pitched at 17C, set the fridge to 18C and the fermentation activity took the liquid temperature as high as 20C which is the maximum recommended for this strain. It took off pretty quickly and is slowing down now on day five.

My wort was close to 100% pils malt to help me assess the yeast once it's all done, so not really a typical steam beer. I'm hoping it will be more than just "clean" and will genuinely taste like a lager.


----------



## Fatgodzilla

So, as someone who has never used MJ dried yeast, for no other reason than I have never had ready access to it, after reading this thread and looking at retailers, you'd be a dill to think MJ yeasts aren't a credible yeasts and great value for the costs. I know the next few yeasts I will buy for upcoming brews.

Good thread, great feedback and a reason why AHB is still a credible reference source, well once you get rid of the bullshitters comments.


----------



## jyo

Malty Cultural said:


> Only a small thread, but it looks pretty positive: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89716-mangrove-jacks-m54/
> 
> I'm fermenting with it now for the first time. I pitched at 17C, set the fridge to 18C and the fermentation activity took the liquid temperature as high as 20C which is the maximum recommended for this strain. It took off pretty quickly and is slowing down now on day five.
> 
> My wort was close to 100% pils malt to help me assess the yeast once it's all done, so not really a typical steam beer. I'm hoping it will be more than just "clean" and will genuinely taste like a lager.


I've used it in a Cali Lager and in a Pils. Fantastic yeast. Super clean, malty pils, fermented at 18...


----------



## goatchop41

Fatgodzilla said:


> So, as someone who has never used MJ dried yeast, for no other reason than I have never had ready access to it, after reading this thread and looking at retailers, you'd be a dill to think MJ yeasts aren't a credible yeasts and great value for the costs. I know the next few yeasts I will buy for upcoming brews.
> 
> Good thread, great feedback and a reason why AHB is still a credible reference source, well once you get rid of the bullshitters comments.


I'm yet to have a bad experience with any of the MJ dry yeasts. I've used the West Coast and New World Strong for hoppy pales, which came out clean and with great hop profiles; Empire Ale for a brown ale and ESB, both nice and malty with subtle esters; the French Saison, which was drinkable within a week, and scored 8s/9s in a comp at 2 weeks post pitch!

The biggest test will be the batch that I'm about to pitch - trying their Bavarian Wheat yeast. I'm yet to find a good dried hefe yeast! (WB-06 being ok, if pushed really high in temp)


----------



## Bribie G

I must admit I've got about 6 Wyeasts sitting in the fridge but my last 6 brews I've gone straight to a MJ or slurry as first choice. Pity that a similar range didn't get put out by someone years ago.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Just made 3 beers from the a packet of M44 West Coast, all turned out great!

Base Jumper Ale - 4%, 20ibu with Galaxy and Mosaic

Brooklyn XPA - 6%, 50Ibu with Brooklyn 

Oatmeal Stout - 5.5%, 28ibu on nitro.

I kept the yeast slurry from the 4% ale and split that into 2 healthy pitches for the XPA and Stout.

Will be exploring a few others


----------



## Markbeer

I have used the Bavarian Wheat. It liked a warmer temp to bring out the flavours in the two batches at different temps I did.

I repitched it into a weizenbock style beer and it was great.

The French saison I used with orange peel and it was a great beer. Fermented mid 20s.


----------



## gaijin

What temp did you ferment the Bavarian wheat at? I did mine at about 21avg and found the flavours a bit subdued. Was a little disappointed as I like a bit if banana but only got a hint and mild clove. Will have a crack at 23 next time with a ferrulic acid rest to get more clove out of it.

I'll still keep a few packs in the fridge for convenience, but if I can grab wyeast Weihenstephan 3068 easily, I would go for that instead.


----------



## Markbeer

24 degrees is what I liked best for the Bavarian wheat yeast.


----------



## kalbarluke

RobB said:


> From my first experience with M29 French Saison, I doubt I could pick it in a side-by-side with Belle Saison. Hungry little bugger. Tasty too.


I pitched the M29 yesterday morning into wort in a 23L glass demijohn. In SE QLD it is a fairly constant mid-high 20's at the moment which suits instructions on the packet. Ferment was very vigorous after 24 hours. Decent 4cm krausen. It's interesting to see just how active the yeast is through the glass.


----------



## Dylo

Seeing as this looks to be the biggest thread on MJ yeasts I thought I'd post my findings on the M36 - Liberty Bell yeast. 

Used it on a rye APA and was impressed with its quick take off. I have experienced slow starts with both the M44 and especially the California Lager M54 strain - but this one was off in under 10 hours. The thing that got me was just how low the turbidity is on this yeast while actively fermenting. It chewed through 40 grav points in 96 hours and without crash cooling this thing was almost crystal clear at that point. 

Looking forward to carbing this one up.


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## Tricky Dicky

Just about to use M15 for the first time for a Scottish Export 19L, OG expected to be around 1045, is one 10G packet enough?


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## goatchop41

Tricky Dicky said:


> Just about to use M15 for the first time for a Scottish Export 19L, OG expected to be around 1045, is one 10G packet enough?



For that OG, yeah it should be fine - provided that the sachet has been kept cold most of the time and isn't really, really old


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## Tricky Dicky

goatchop41 said:


> For that OG, yeah it should be fine - provided that the sachet has been kept cold most of the time and isn't really, really old


I was told by the LHBS that as this was a dry yeast it may take some time to start fermenting however within 10 hours the airlock on my batch of Scottish Export is bubbling like crazy!


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## goatchop41

Tricky Dicky said:


> I was told by the LHBS that as this was a dry yeast it may take some time to start fermenting



Yeahhhhhhhhhh, what they've told you is bullshit. Heaps of factors play in to how long a yeast gets kicking, not simply whether it is dry or not.


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## Tricky Dicky

goatchop41 said:


> Yeahhhhhhhhhh, what they've told you is bullshit. Heaps of factors play in to how long a yeast gets kicking, not simply whether it is dry or not.


What would be the other factors? temperature I'm guessing? what are the others?


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## DU99

old or non refrig yeast


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## Tricky Dicky

It seems to have stopped bubbling after 36 hours, (20c temperature controlled) could it have finished it's high activity so quickly?


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## Milhouse

Judging off my own experience and what I have read elsewhere it is a blend of two yeasts, one fast acting and another much slower.

Even so it doesn't attenuate that well and does need time to condition, tastes a bit yeasty and masks malt flavour early on.


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## Tricky Dicky

Milhouse said:


> Judging off my own experience and what I have read elsewhere it is a blend of two yeasts, one fast acting and another much slower.
> 
> Even so it doesn't attenuate that well and does need time to condition, tastes a bit yeasty and masks malt flavour early on.


I measured the SG and its come down 22 points from 1042 in 2 days, so in your experience would you expect this to drop further even though I can't see any bubbling at all in the airlock?


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## Milhouse

Probably will drop a little more, I would expect about 60% AA. A little extra time in the fermenter certainly won't hurt.


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## Tricky Dicky

Milhouse said:


> Probably will drop a little more, I would expect about 60% AA. A little extra time in the fermenter certainly won't hurt.


I'm hoping it drops to at least 1012 so I'll test it again after its been fermenting a week, normally on my previous dozen brews or so fermentation has finished by then and I leave it a further week. Just not seen airlock activity apparently finish in less than 48 hours.


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## goatchop41

Tricky Dicky said:


> I'm hoping it drops to at least 1012 so I'll test it again after its been fermenting a week, normally on my previous dozen brews or so fermentation has finished by then and I leave it a further week. Just not seen airlock activity apparently finish in less than 48 hours.



Never judge anything by airlock activity. Only ever trust your hydrometer readings. You're not watching it all of the time, it may still be fermenting slowly, and you're just not seeing the bubbling when it happens


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## goatchop41

Milhouse said:


> Judging off my own experience and what I have read elsewhere it is a blend of two yeasts, one fast acting and another much slower.



Where did you read that?


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## Milhouse

Don't go too much on airlock activity go on change in sg. That said I leave my brews around 2 weeks before testing and they are always done by then. Rea


goatchop41 said:


> Where did you read that?


I don't remember, it was an overseas forum, I have had a quick Google and can't find it now. I should say it was someone's opinion based on their observations. Which I tend to agree with as it ferments really well hard for a few days then takes ages to finish up


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## Schikitar

Dylo said:


> I thought I'd post my findings on the M36 - Liberty Bell yeast.


It's pretty great hey, I've been using it for the last coupe brews and really impressed with it, will definitely use it again!


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## Tricky Dicky

Milhouse said:


> Don't go too much on airlock activity go on change in sg. That said I leave my brews around 2 weeks before testing and they are always done by then. Rea
> 
> I don't remember, it was an overseas forum, I have had a quick Google and can't find it now. I should say it was someone's opinion based on their observations. Which I tend to agree with as it ferments really well hard for a few days then takes ages to finish up


Maybe it was this forum, as it has some good observations on Mangrove Jack yeasts and includes the M15 ?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/mangrove-jacks-yeasts-review-m15-m36-m42-m44-m54.645584/


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