# A stolen idea.



## wide eyed and legless (11/8/19)

I had never seen this done before a guy sent me a video where he roused the yeast from its sleep. Cold day today in Melbourne and this is the second time I have tried this,harvested yeast out of the fridge first thing this morning, mashed, and while draining the last few drops of wort into a bowl drop the yeast into the grain bed, keeps its heat for a surprisingly long time.


----------



## MHB (11/8/19)

You would want to be very careful, you can kill a lot of yeast by changing the temperature too quickly or too far.
Considering that if you have mashed out your grain bed would be at 80oC (say 75 if not mashing out) and as you say it stays hot for a surprisingly long time, even if you wait an hour, shoving a bottle of dormant yeast at 5-15oC into a hot environment that is probably still over 50oC could kill a good half of your yeast.

Maybe if you sat the yeast in a pot of ambient temperature water and sat the pot on the malt, ideally with a thermometer in there and kept an eye on it... Better to plan ahead and have your yeast in your brewing fridge the night before so its gently warmed to pitching temperature.

Really not a good idea, sure it might make the surviving yeast really pump giving the appearance of lots of activity, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Mark


----------



## wide eyed and legless (12/8/19)

Yes thats right it does stay hot, I sat it on the top initially when the top had cooled, as the wort cooled i scooped out some grain and sat it lower. Twice now I have done it it and both times it has been OK but I do appreciate it can be a set back if the temperature isn't monitored.


----------



## onemorecell (12/8/19)

I can't remember the reasoning, but when the girl from imperial yeast was on a brewing podcast, she said they recommend using (their) yeast straight from the fridge - no warming on the bench (or mash) necessary

Looking through, it might have been the Basic Brewing 6 December episode from last year (but I don't think I listened to it that long ago, so I dunno...) or more likely the 18 June Brulosophy one, if you wanted to have a listen.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (12/8/19)

onemorecell said:


> I can't remember the reasoning, but when the girl from imperial yeast was on a brewing podcast, she said they recommend using (their) yeast straight from the fridge - no warming on the bench (or mash) necessary
> 
> Looking through, it might have been the Basic Brewing 6 December episode from last year (but I don't think I listened to it that long ago, so I dunno...) or more likely the 18 June Brulosophy one, if you wanted to have a listen.


As Mark correctly states, taking it out of the fridge which is around 3 C and dropping it into a wort of 18 to 20 C will stress the yeast, no matter which company has cultured it.


----------



## MHB (12/8/19)

As will taking it out of the fridge and putting it in a much hotter mash!
Its a really stupid idea.
Mark


----------



## onemorecell (12/8/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> As Mark correctly states, taking it out of the fridge which is around 3 C and dropping it into a wort of 18 to 20 C will stress the yeast, no matter which company has cultured it.


why would a yeast company (who you'd assume knows a bit about yeast) tell people otherwise?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (12/8/19)

MHB said:


> As will taking it out of the fridge and putting it in a much hotter mash!
> Its a really stupid idea.
> Mark


Wasn't so hot when put it in, just right.


onemorecell said:


> why would a yeast company (who you'd assume knows a bit about yeast) tell people otherwise?


I don't know, you could email them and ask or try it it will possibly could work but I would imagine it would be a long lag time.


----------



## onemorecell (12/8/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Wasn't so hot when put it in, just right.
> 
> I don't know, you could email them and ask or try it it will possibly could work but I would imagine it would be a long lag time.


oh it definitely works - i've used imperial for every beer i've made for a year. no noticeable lag time difference.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (12/8/19)

onemorecell said:


> oh it definitely works - i've used imperial for every beer i've made for a year. no noticeable lag time difference.


Seems to be what they recomend, 0 C pitch, discussion here.
https://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?67783-Yeast-Pitching-Temp


----------



## mongey (12/8/19)

+1 for it works. I pitched their rustic , saison yeast , cold as directed and it started within 9 hours. And I mean proper started. Krausen galore.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (12/8/19)

mongey said:


> +1 for it works. I pitched their rustic , saison yeast , cold as directed and it started within 9 hours. And I mean proper started. Krausen galore.


I agree, if it works do it, I am skeptical but prepared to be proven wrong which I was with the Imperial yeast, and with other yeasts reading the Pro Brewers posts.


----------



## Markbeer (12/8/19)

I don't like to let my yeast near unboiled grain or mash. Literally loads of nasties in there.


----------



## tanked84 (12/8/19)

Looks just a good as adding it to the boil. Did you use a malt pipe or crack pipe?


----------



## keine_ahnung (12/8/19)

Woooahh... far from optimal for the yeast  

It's not just about "killing" or not killing yeast, it's also about everything that's happening in the yeast. By raising the temp, the yeast's metabolism will go into overdrive. The purpose of life for yeast, is to reproduce itself. To do this, it needs energy, energy is won via the metabolism of C-sources (carbohydrates).
Higher temp = higher rate of metabolism.
What does the yeast metabolise when there are no free C-sources floating around in the medium?
The next available C-sources in it's body/cell.
THIS is the big difference between dropping the yeast into 18°C wort, and heating it up in the container in which it was stored in.
In the wort, the yeast has a lovely rich supply of not just energy sources, but also important minerals and amino-acids.

Higher temps during the pitching phase have many negative aspects either way (more higher alcohols, LESS esthers ---> the combination of the two! A less than optimal ratio of higher alcohols to esters (like all things in brewing, it's not just a matter of more is better or whatever. Think of IBUs vs gravity. Things need to be balanced), an "emptier" tasting beer, poor head retention).

And the even extremer version of this (heating up the yeast before introducing sugars, amino-acids and minerals) is pretty much f**king the yeast from behind in a sauna after having had it in a fridge for a week without anything to eat!!!

It's pretty much a form of forced-autolysis.

People should stop being so afraid of the yeast taking a bit of time to adjust to a new wort. It NEEDS time. It's a completely different medium than what it's been sitting in for the last few weeks.
Be kind to your yeast!


I'm pretty certain that if I even mentioned this idea to all the brewers and brewmasters I know and work with, they'd be so dumbfounded, that they'd probably slap me in the face with beer bottle and never listen to a word I ever said again.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/8/19)

As I said, used it twice both times fermentation started of fine, the guy who sent me the DVD is a brewer of 40 years standing.


----------



## razz (13/8/19)

Love the sauna analogy Keine.


----------



## Outback (13/8/19)

razz said:


> Love the sauna analogy Keine.


Yeh, but he says it like it's a bad thing!


----------



## MHB (13/8/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> As I said, used it twice both times fermentation started of fine, the guy who sent me the DVD is a brewer of 40 years standing.


Weak response, piss weak really.
Most of the time doing 100 in a 50 zone, you get away with it doesn't make it a really good idea.
Learn more and post less
Mark


----------



## wide eyed and legless (13/8/19)

MHB said:


> Weak response, piss weak really.
> Most of the time doing 100 in a 50 zone, you get away with it doesn't make it a really good idea.
> Learn more and post less
> Mark


The yeast rises to 18 C slowly It isn't plunged into the spent grain at 60 C as you are trying to make out, again, I have done this twice, carefully monitored the temperature both times have been successful.


----------



## S.E (13/8/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The yeast rises to 18 C slowly It isn't plunged into the spent grain at 60 C as you are trying to make out, again, I have done this twice, carefully monitored the temperature both times have been successful.


As I understand it from this and your first post you used the heat radiating from the grain bed to bring the yeast slowly up to pitching temp on a cold day in Melbourne , is that right?

I don’t see a problem with that but I’m with Markbeer in that it is far from the most sanitary place to be placing your yeast bottle or anything that’s going near the fermenter.

In cold weather I either put the yeast in the fermenting fridge with the heater set to 18c while I’m brewing or slowly add chilled wort a little at a time from the fermenter tap till it’s warm enough to pitch.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (14/8/19)

My usual MO is to take the yeast out of the fridge and into the fermenting room the day before which is at a constant 18 C. I have an extremely sick wife who is going through chemo and I cannot plan when I can brew. I just have to seize the moment. The container does have an airtight seal, and I did wash it before opening it.
Today I do have a chance to brew again and I will be trying the onemorecell method of straight out the fridge and into the wort.


----------



## Grmblz (14/8/19)

Gone are the days when yeast was yeast and the only choice was ale or lager, and we knew exactly how to treat them and what to do with them. 
Depending on the manufacturer we hydrate with varying temps or do not hydrate and just pitch, some recommend a starter whilst others forbid it, and that's just the dried stuff.
If 12 months ago you had suggested pitching into a 39c wort I would have thought your penthouse tenant was defective, and yet here I am doing just that, ok 35c I just can't bring myself to go the extra 4c, one day though.
So there you have it, all the old rules of thumb, conventional wisdoms, have changed or are changing, keep an open mind and try it, if it works for you then great and if it doesn't then I hope it was a pilot batch. Cheers G


----------



## sponge (14/8/19)

I like to make starters on a stir plate, stepped up to volume where necessary, in low gravity wort, at temperatures which encourage healthy yeast growth. 

Potato, potata.


----------



## philrob (14/8/19)

I'm sticking with proven methods. Why change?
Experimenting with silly ideas is not for me.


----------



## Grmblz (14/8/19)

philrob said:


> I'm sticking with proven methods. Why change?
> Experimenting with silly ideas is not for me.


What proven methods do you refer to? Who proved them and when? Why change? Well for the luddites amongst us if we didn't we'd still be living in caves dressed in dead animal skins but I assume you refer to my post about yeast in the 21st century, well the product has changed, read my post carefully. New/different manufacturing/packaging methods, different suppliers now recommend different methods for pitching, are you suggesting we ignore Chris White when he recommends this https://www.whitelabs.com/resources/homebrew-starter-tips of course not, but then we get this from Fermentis (safale for the less well informed)
"TODAY A STUDY DEMONSTRATES THAT THE USE OF ACTIVE DRY YEASTS (ADY) is very
easy and does not necessarily include a rehydration step. To the contrary, the
ADY can advantageously be immediately put in contact with the wort into the
fermentation vessel (direct pitch). Several rehydration and direct pitch conditions
do not show any significant differences in terms of the viability and the
vitality of the ADY. This concept is protected under the E2UTM umbrella."
WOW! New technology, run for the hills chicken little the sky is falling.
Others actively discourage starters with their yeasts presumably due to their production methods, I'm not going to spoon feed you, I'm sure you've worked out how to use that silly experiment from 1991.
For those interested in progress and silly ideas https://www.theyeastbay.com/brewers-yeast-products/sigmunds-voss-kveik yep 38c pitching temp, I've got 2 other strains that I'm playing with, one is an isolate (Loki) the other a 3 strain mix, it really puts the cat amongst the pigeons style wise, but 3 day ferments and very drinkable after another 3 days, a true one week turn around on grav's North of 1050 please excuse my language but this shit is insane. A quiet warning to those scared of change "stay away from it and be very afraid" Cheers G


----------



## Timbo (14/8/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> My usual MO is to take the yeast out of the fridge and into the fermenting room the day before which is at a constant 18 C. I have an extremely sick wife who is going through chemo and I cannot plan when I can brew. I just have to seize the moment. The container does have an airtight seal, and I did wash it before opening it.
> Today I do have a chance to brew again and I will be trying the onemorecell method of straight out the fridge and into the wort.


Sorry to hear about your wife mate. Wishing her and yourself all the best!


----------



## hoppy2B (14/8/19)

The re-hydration temps for dry yeast are usually something like 35 degrees C. I assume the manufacturer has done testing and knows what they're talking about. But contrary to what is written on the packaging, I have used dry wine yeast from a packet that was opened years earlier, was not stored in a fridge and worked fine. So who knows what to believe. 

People on this thread are claiming all sorts of things as best practice and making no reference to scientific data or anecdotal evidence, and therefore might as well be pissing into the wind.

And to top it off, pasteurization temps for milk (from wiki) are 30 minutes at 63 degrees C, and 15 seconds at 72 degrees C. Take from that what you will. 

I hope your wife is good and well soon wide eyed and legless.


----------



## Half-baked (14/8/19)

Timbo said:


> Sorry to hear about your wife mate. Wishing her and yourself all the best!



Yep, me too


----------



## Grmblz (14/8/19)

Timbo said:


> Sorry to hear about your wife mate. Wishing her and yourself all the best!


+1, I'm sorry I missed the most relevant part of your comment. Good luck Weal.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (15/8/19)

I don't mind taking risks, especially if the risks are in my favour a guy who has done this for 40 years, and has done it without changing his method I figure it can't be too bad. He is in the UK his name is Mike Challis, he is now 85 years old still brewing 100 litre batches, the DVD he sent me shows him brewing in 1990 on a set up which a lot of home brewers would be more than happy with today.

I have asked him why he doesn't put his video on you tube, but he says he doesn't know how, and he doesn't like putting his head above the trenches. He got in touch with me about saving the co2 from the fermentation he does the same thing for keeping his casks connected to his beer engine and using his Noddy balloon connected to a cask breather. I think that was what he meant by keeping his head below the trenches he has had a few run ins with CAMRA.

As Grmblz has mentioned dry yeast has really changed a lot, no need to aerate wort, no need to re-hydrate, the Chinese English Ale yeast I have been using says to re hydrate but do not aerate the wort.

So anyone who is interested in Mikes DVD it is pretty long but interesting, I will post it out at no cost and maybe pass it around, I wouldn't like to go against his wishes and upload it, even if I new how.

Thanks for the messages for my wife, we were only reading on Saturday how cancer goes un diagnosed by doctors. She has had a pain in her side for about 6 months, she does yoga goes to the gym, and swims. It wasn't until we were in New York in May when I noticed she could not keep up walking and struggled with the sub way steps. The doctors had told her the pain in her side was muscle pain. We went back to the doctors and asked for a ultra sound, which led to a CT scan, which led to a PET scan and she was diagnosed with 4th stage mantle lymphoma. It is in her pelvis, rib, spleen, bone marrow and numerous lymph nodes.
She is going through aggressive chemo and immunotherapy I took her into Epworth Hospital yesterday and the treatment is over 2 days.


----------



## hoppy2B (15/8/19)

hoppy2B said:


> And to top it off, pasteurization temps for milk (from wiki) are 30 minutes at 63 degrees C, and 15 seconds at 72 degrees C. Take from that what you will.



Correction, those temperatures came from Britannica. com

Yeah, sorry to hear about your wife weal.


----------



## Coalminer (15/8/19)

hoppy2B said:


> The re-hydration temps for dry yeast are usually something like 35 degrees C. I assume the manufacturer has done testing and knows what they're talking about.


----------



## Coalminer (15/8/19)

Definitely the manufacturer knows what they are talking. Fermentis does not recommend these sort of temperatures and I think they supply a fair amount of yeast
eg Safale US-05... 25>29 https://fermentis.com/en/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/safale-us-05/
Saflager S=189... 15>25 https://fermentis.com/en/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/saflager-s-189/

Note these refers to E2U dry yeast so not outdated

Look before you leap[/QUOTE]


----------



## Coalminer (15/8/19)

OOPS leapt too soon, double post


----------



## onemorecell (15/8/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Thanks for the messages for my wife, we were only reading on Saturday how cancer goes un diagnosed by doctors. She has had a pain in her side for about 6 months, she does yoga goes to the gym, and swims. It wasn't until we were in New York in May when I noticed she could not keep up walking and struggled with the sub way steps. The doctors had told her the pain in her side was muscle pain. We went back to the doctors and asked for a ultra sound, which led to a CT scan, which led to a PET scan and she was diagnosed with 4th stage mantle lymphoma. It is in her pelvis, rib, spleen, bone marrow and numerous lymph nodes.
> She is going through aggressive chemo and immunotherapy I took her into Epworth Hospital yesterday and the treatment is over 2 days.


sorry to hear that... sounds rough. Good luck mate and really hope it goes well!


----------



## hoppy2B (15/8/19)

Coalminer said:


> Definitely the manufacturer knows what they are talking. Fermentis does not recommend these sort of temperatures and I think they supply a fair amount of yeast
> eg Safale US-05... 25>29 https://fermentis.com/en/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/safale-us-05/
> Saflager S=189... 15>25 https://fermentis.com/en/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/saflager-s-189/
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I have a packet of Nottingham, albeit slightly out of date, which has a picture showing to rehydrate in 100 mL of water at 30-35 degrees C. 

But if you have different information that is fair enough.


----------



## onemorecell (15/8/19)

nvm


----------



## MHB (15/8/19)

Try this
Mark


----------



## billygoat (16/8/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I don't mind taking risks, especially if the risks are in my favour a guy who has done this for 40 years, and has done it without changing his method I figure it can't be too bad. He is in the UK his name is Mike Challis, he is now 85 years old still brewing 100 litre batches, the DVD he sent me shows him brewing in 1990 on a set up which a lot of home brewers would be more than happy with today.
> 
> I have asked him why he doesn't put his video on you tube, but he says he doesn't know how, and he doesn't like putting his head above the trenches. He got in touch with me about saving the co2 from the fermentation he does the same thing for keeping his casks connected to his beer engine and using his Noddy balloon connected to a cask breather. I think that was what he meant by keeping his head below the trenches he has had a few run ins with CAMRA.
> 
> ...


What sort of stuff is on the video?
Very sorry to hear about your wife. I hope things get better.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (16/8/19)

billygoat said:


> What sort of stuff is on the video?
> Very sorry to hear about your wife. I hope things get better.


His brewing set up and how he brews,from 1990 to present day. As I said he is 85 now and he has a tall conical fermenter which he has to climb a step ladder to put the yeast in. The last part would be of interest to you, the Beer Engine and attaching the captured co2 to the cask breather. Castigated by CAMRA for suggesting such a thing and now CAMRA are thinking of initiating it!


----------



## billygoat (16/8/19)

wide eyed and legless said:


> His brewing set up and how he brews,from 1990 to present day. As I said he is 85 now and he has a tall conical fermenter which he has to climb a step ladder to put the yeast in. The last part would be of interest to you, the Beer Engine and attaching the captured co2 to the cask breather. Castigated by CAMRA for suggesting such a thing and now CAMRA are thinking of initiating it!


I’d be very interested in having a look at it.


----------



## kieran (17/8/19)

I haven't seen the video, but if he uses some sort of yeast nutrient and a decent volume, there's absolutely no problem with pre warming at all. 
Talking about autolysis in this amount of time is tosh when the yeast cell cycle is roughly 1 hr 20 mins.

The manufacturer recommended guidelines are purely lowest common denominator for the average brewer - many of whom can't control temperature and are more likely to cook the yeast in the process.. hence, toss in the cooled wort.

The end result will be the same though for preculture vs direct pitch, you'll likely end up with the same number of yeast cells when fermentation peters out.

I'm a lazy arse who works with yeast sachets, and I sprinkle that in rather than pre culture (and I have a 50cm X 25cm Ratek controlled temp heat tray modified with stirrers. http://www.ratek.com.au/products/WT1-Medium-Analogue-Warming-Tray.html having that at my disposal and not using it.... The height of laziness.


----------



## Cian Doyle (17/8/19)

It isn't unique to put the yeast on the grain be,d I noticed Professor Nguyen on his brewing demo did the same thing.


----------



## hoppy2B (17/8/19)

Most people wouldn't think twice about taking their supermarket purchased block of bakers yeast out of the fridge and plonking it into some sugar and water or milk, and then warming it up.


----------



## MHB (17/8/19)

Aren't we lucky they aren't making beer,


----------



## Reg Holt (17/8/19)

Nothing wrong with warming up the yeast before its put to work, doesn't matter where you do it, I have a stir plate to warm mine.


----------

