# Williamswarn Personal Brewery



## wobbly

I know this subject has been listed a few times in the past including one by me. I am now seriously considering purchasing a unit having seen one in operation at TWOC in Perth and had a number of questions on process addressed by Ian Williams.

Yes it is expensive but so was the Braumeister that got a hammering on price on this site only to now be the "toy of choice" for a quite a number of brewers

I don't play golf, go to the races, own a boat, smoke or gamble so the outlay is in my view in line with any or all of those hobbies/vices!!!

Ian has a masters of brewery technology from a London institute and has either consulted on been the master brewer at a number of world breweries and I consider him knowledgeable enough to be able to offer the comments he has.

Some of his responses are counter to what is held as common practice by brewers on this site and are presented for discussion and not necessarily to counter what others have said

The questions I posed to Ian and his responses are too long to directly post here so I have included a Word attachment

Cheers

Wobbly 

View attachment Williuamswarn.docx


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## pk.sax

Have to say his responses are well stated.

Still a wank of a gadget. A big An expensive wank at that.


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## Cocko

You want to buy a turn key:

http://www.digitalebrewery.com/

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Digitale-Brewery-Bar-Workshop/229117190485385

Contact him. I have seen a system run and the craftsman ship and function are incredible, blow the BM out of the water... in every way.

2c.

No affi rah rah.


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## doon

I take it he already owns a bm as stated in document?


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## Cocko

wobbly said:


> I am now seriously considering purchasing a unit


As opposed to this?


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## Yob

So is it a question or a statement?

If the latter, do it, report... Photos required


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## doon

Is this a different version I don't remember it having that bottle underneath when I looked at it on YouTube ages ago


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## Cocko

Googled it - Sorry, I was thinking of something else...

Ignore me, Carry on.


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## Rowy

Cocko said:


> Googled it - Sorry, I was thinking of something else...
> 
> Ignore me, Carry on.


Your words flow like flatulence from an inebriates backside. 

Bye Bye Cocko old son.

May your beers be cold and infection free for all your days.


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## Yob

Please let this not be your last quip Rowy!!

Plug in and continue 

(as time permits)


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## sp0rk

Ehhhhh, their pro's/con's list seems like it's grasping at straws


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## shmang

It seems to fill a void that does't really exist.
For the price tag you could set up a pretty nice fermentation fridge and kegerator and still have change for a braumeister.


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## Cocko

Rowy said:


> Your words flow like flatulence from an inebriates backside.
> 
> Bye Bye Cocko old son.
> 
> May your beers be cold and infection free for all your days.



See you old friend..... May your bowls be full and your presence here be forever.

:icon_cheers:


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## pimpsqueak

So "ageing is a myth"?

Bullshit. 

It might not be a huge thing for lawn mower beers, but I cracked an 18month old bottle of Irish red a few weeks back and it's bloody glorious, which I didn't expect seeing as it started off entirely underwhelming and with more than its share of diacetyl.

Even with a lawn mower beer, I will bet a months salary that aging it for 2-3 months will noticeably improve it.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

I can't even get past this "Have you used any of the liquid yeast such as Wyeast or White Labs and if so able to comment on the suitability or otherwise of these yeasts you can use these. Just make a1L starter and stir for 24 hours on a stir plate to give them life *They’re pretty much dead when you get them* but they have a great variety."

Is he serious? Dead?


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Hang on! This thing only brews extract beer (http://www.williamswarn.com/Shop/Ingredients), whyyyy oh whyyy is it being compared to a Braumeister?!


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## Mr. No-Tip

All his quals and making an extract only machine. Kind of feels like someone who owns a michelen star resteraunt and then does ads for a supermarket...oh wait...



> [SIZE=12pt]I have a 20lt Braumeister and plan to make my own wort for use in the Personal Brewery and would be interested in any comments you have to make re using a fresh wort kit. [/SIZE]


And people ping me for buying a braumeister. That's some cray disposable income right there. A fermenter and a keg aren't that much effort post BM.



> [SIZE=12pt]Ageing is a myth. Beer is best fresh.[/SIZE]


Except for Lambics...RIS's...Hmm...



> [SIZE=12pt]They’re pretty much dead when you get them but they have a great variety. [/SIZE]


Um....



> The dry yeast is full of nutrient and grown aerobically before drying so doesn’t need wort aeration.


Sure, but it's going to be better, quicker and healthier with it...

Breadmakers abound.


EDIT: 6k? Jesus H.


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## Camo6

The OP's plan is to create wort with a BM and finish it in this, or so I gather. But for that price you could import a couple of temp controlled conical fermentors and build or buy a kick ass kegging setup and still have change.


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## Truman42

i see it as the difference between heating up a frozen meal in the microwave versus cooking a meal from scratch. Your getting dinner in the end but which one will taste nicer?

If your happy to make beer with the least amount of work possible then this WWPB is for you.

I prefer to expirement in my beer making with everything from grain bills, to hops, yeast, fermentation temperatures, etc etc.

On their website they say this

*Result: The beer is the same quality as a commercial brewery, whatever the beer style*

Thats the one thing I dont want my beer to taste like.


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## QldKev

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Hang on! This thing only brews extract beer (http://www.williamswarn.com/Shop/Ingredients), whyyyy oh whyyy is it being compared to a Braumeister?!



It's not even a true extract beer, it's a kit and kilo.

@OP It is a blingy way of brewing kit beer. Have you tasted beer form it?


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## Camo6

QldKev said:


> It's not even a true extract beer, it's a kit and kilo.
> 
> @OP It is a blingy way of brewing kit beer. Have you tasted beer form it?



Atleast we are assured it won't taste like dead yeast like you'd find with regular homebrew. :blink:

@Wobbly. For the price of the unit I could find so much more ( :icon_drool2: ) to buy to improve my beer while still having control over ferment temps, carbonation levels etc. By the look of it most of these parameters are set and unchangeable. But this machine may suit your needs and hey, it's your money. But wouldn't you spit chips if the beer came out tasting like homebrew! Ian Williams may be an expert brewer but he's also trying to sell a product he's probably outlaid a lot of money towards.
If you do go down this track be sure to let us all know how it goes. It would look good on the kitchen bench and would put the wife's kenwood to shame, that's for sure.


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## indica86

> The yeast under the lid is an 11g pack of Fermentis US-05 ale yeast.
> 
> Ferment at 23°C/73°F.


Well, all I have learnt recently is wrong then.


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## manticle

QldKev said:


> It's not even a true extract beer, it's a kit and kilo.
> 
> @OP It is a blingy way of brewing kit beer. Have you tasted beer form it?



No - it's a bling fermenter, conditioner and packager.

Wort production is separate but you can theoretically ferment any wort within including extract or AG. It would be a much better unit if it included the option of producing AG wort as part of the whole.


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## Liam_snorkel

I'm waiting for the Williamsbraumasterwarn Personal Brewery.


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## wobbly

A lot of the comments seem to miss the point that I plan to produce my own fresh wort in a BM to then ferment and carbonate in the WW

You the individual designs the beer - grain bill, hop schedule, mash schedule etc. and then use a BM (or clone!!) to do the work (repeatability)

Fermenting the fresh wort is just another step - Yeast strain, temperature and time etc. again you make the choices and set the parameters (program) for the WW just like for the BM (clone). You can ferment at what ever temperature you want to between 1C and 40C and under what ever CO2 pressure (within reason) you want to. 

There is no rule that states you should take the beer off the yeast after 4 days, you could leave it on the yeast for a couple of weeks if that is your desire. What WW state (claim) is that if you were using US-05 on a wort OG of 1040 at 23c then fermentation would be completed within 4 days. If you were fermenting say a 1050 wort again using US-05 at say 18C then it would take a couple of days longer or you could use two packets of yeast and achieve the results in the 4 days

The WW dose what the BM does in a single vessel - fresh wort in for fermentation, clarification, carbonation and chilled beer out ready for serving and all this is done in a single vessel

On the comment that you could purchase a couple of glycol cooled conical's etc you still have to have a refrigeration source to cool the glycol and a pump to circulate it. Also you couldn't ferment under pressure for what ever benefits that provides you also need to clarify (filter) the beer and either keg or bottle and refrigerate for serving. Not saying that this would be an issue it would just involve more equipment and process steps to achieve the same result.

On the question of have I tried any beers form one of these machines I have sampled Roy's (TWOC) Pilsner and Kolsh brewed from the fresh wort kits he produces (and sells) in his 200lt BM and both were very good and superior to the beers I produce by traditional fermentation and bottle conditioning. And I acknowledge that my beers "may/could" be improved if I kegged!!

If you wanted to long term "condition" a beer you can still do that by bottling a beer from the WW prior to carrying out the clarification step

I also understand that it is one beer at a time unless you keg or bottle some of the output

Cheers

Wobbly


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## indica86

Well, that being the point and your money being yours why not hey?
Do post pics when it is running.


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## tiprya

So you're buying this instead of a fermentation fridge + keg fridge (but it can't do both at the same time).

Seems like a waste of money unless you're really short of space.


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## TSMill

With respect to recommended temperatures for fermentation, it's worth noting that this unit maintains the fermentation under pressure, which will offset the increase in esters associated with the higher temperature. Being conical base will also have some impact vs. a flat bottom barrel (not sure what though). 

Having read through the website and the page comparing their system to homebrew, I think Ian is doing himself a slight disservice by implying that the latter constitutes a stale can with an out of date yeast, has no options for temperature control etc.

At least they have solved the age old debate of home brew vs. craft brew....theirs is personal brew. 

Anyways, if you have the dosh I say buy 3...you need variety on tap.


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## gordo_t

I like it.

Looks neat, you already have the braumeister, why not go all out. Only as expensive as being a pack a day smoker for a yr or so 
You'll be making some exceptional beers.


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## Liam_snorkel

I haven't had a close look but is there a way to transfer to a keg under pressure? that way you could just treat it purely as a fermentation unit (with a tap for tasting during fermentation) with your own kegerator.

knock the brews out on a BM, ferment/carbonate in the WS, dispense from kegerator. Very expensive, certainly, but if you had the cash but not the time, it'd be a pretty slick virtually automated system.


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## Camo6

Sounds like you've done your research Wobbly. I've been stricken with man-flu today so had a read up of their PDF and it does seem like a well thought out unit that allows a fair degree of control over temp and pressure. Being limited to one batch at a time would be a negative for me but I'm sure you could figure a way to transfer to kegs and run a separate kegerator if you were so inclined. I'd be interested to know if their co2 bottles are generic and what their clarification agent contained. As well as availability of these components.

Still, if I was to outlay that much on brewing equipment (not saying I haven't but it's been staggered over a few years h34r: ), it probably wouldn't be on this unit.

But I can't help but feel it's your duty to purchase one of these units and prove us naysayers wrong... with lots of pics and vids!

Cheers,

Cam.


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## wobbly

Answers to a couple of questions.

Yes you can transfer under CO2 pressure to a keg and depending on the keg coupler type you might need to make up an adaptor.
The CO2 bottle are not WW generic and you can use stock standard units if you choose. The Australian agent (Winequip Melbourne) can/will supply either a 2.6kg ($187) or 6kg ($220) unit. The WW comes with it's own pressure regulators as standard
The clarifying agent is* "Colloidal Silica Oxide" *available at a number of outlets. TWOC has a product called "Sabisol 300" (I think or something like that) however my Dr Google search failed to find it so maybe I have the spelling incorrect. But in any event here is a link to a German product http://www.klebosol.com/applications/colloidal-silica-beverage/ that is widely used in beer clarification. I don't see why you couldn't use gelatine if you didn't mind animal products in your beer.
An interesting point in the manual that I read they use Sodium Percarbonate as a* "no rinse sanitiser"* on the basis that when mixed with water is gives of hydrogen peroxide everything I have read on this site talks about it being a good soaker/cleaner but not a* "no rinse"* sanitiser!!!

I would be interested in hearing any comments that others have to make about this practise

Cheers

Wobbly


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## tiprya

That practice, and many others in that document (e.g. fermenting at 23 degrees) is a half-assed approach to brewing.

It sounds like the pitch is 'easy' brewing, but if I was spending all that money, I wouldn't cut corners.

What is it about your braumeister beers now that arn't as good as the ones at TWOC you tried? I doubt this new machine will be the solution - it will be your processes, not spending more money.


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## Ducatiboy stu

Sodium Percarbonate is a no rinse sanitiser, but most preffer to rinse. It is also clasified under ANZFS as food safe


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## Elz

Don't own a car, or smoke or gamble, but did buy a WW (do still spend small fortune on craft beer!). Not for everyone but affords me the opportunity to brew what I believe is a high quality product in an town house. The build quality is second to none and the ability to precisely control aspects of the brew process has resulted in beers that are way above the commercial pig swill, but I am yet to reach a craft beer standard. However only six brews under my belt. Also plan to buy a BM (yes more expensive gadgets) but will produce a better wort. I have bottled some beers but find the 7 day brewing process means I can also sample other craft beers.
Agree not a gadget for everyone, but so far producing beaut beers and I love having a draft system situated in the kitchen. I guess that purchasing a WW and limiting my intake of craft beers I should break even in less then 4 years (one slab less of craft beer every fortnight = $70 x 26 = $1820 by 4 years equals $7280.)
Yeah yeah cheaper option out there.


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## wobbly

Tiprya

My comment re superior beers is two fold

I haven't yet been able to master the technique to produce a first class Pilsner which the one from TWOC's set up was
The main difference TWOC's beer vs mine is sediment vs no sediment
I'm not here to defend or champion WW but I would be interested to gain an insight into what technical or professional knowledge you use to base your comment "half assed approach to brewing " comment

As the above post by TSmill and numerous sites on the WWW point out fermenting under pressure off sets the increase in ester production associated with fermenting at higher temperatures so maybe there is some sound practice at play here and not just a "half assed approach to brewing"!!

Cheers

Wobbly


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## TSMill

Go hard, pair it up with one of these:

http://www.winepod.net/winepod/winepod-details.aspx


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## Elz

TSMill said:


> Go hard, pair it up with one of these:
> http://www.winepod.net/winepod/winepod-details.aspx


Or as discussed on this forum one of these:
http://picobrew.com


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## MastersBrewery

From what I've read in this thread and note from the WW site as well as previous post from well respected community members, fermenting under pressure is an entirely different playing field, a lot of unwanted nasties created during ferment, drop out, or are not produce under pressured ferment. The problem brewers have with brewing at the higher end of a yeasts tolerance is the off flavours it produces, under pressure this isn't the case. Higher temp = faster ferment (this is why commercial breweries do it, it cost money if there weren't a return they wouldn't fork it out)

In another thread posted today one of the members has gotten himself a Rota Moulding fermenter which he uses as a pressured fermenter, same sort of shape just out of plastic.

Here's the tip with the availability of electronics (read BrewPI) and members willing to go out on their own to program/reprogram (matho's controller, Edak's controllers and others) such control devices to allow for pressure sensors, it can be built. I am sure some bright lad will put it all together, and create a similar fermenting package all told for under $1500. One thing to note it wont be all stainless bling, but it also probably won't be 23L.

From where I sit WW is as close to actual Commercial brewing equipment avaliable on the market, for the home brewer when it comes to fermenting. I think we some times get all too caught up with producing wort (5-8 hours) than fermenting (120-240 hours). Temperature isn't the only thiing to be concerned with.

MY 1.35c
Mike


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## wobbly

I guess for the majority it will be an "oh hum incident" but today I ordered my WW

Also of interest to note that this is the 43rd unit sold by Winequip for delivery in Australia so there are a few out there that think the process is worth the money

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Camo6

Each to his own mate. It will be interesting to see the quality of beer this machine churns out using an AG wort and quality yeast. Best of luck with your purchase and be sure to update this thread with your experiences too.


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## Ross

43 units sold in Australia hey, it's a shame some haven't posted here with their experiences.
I got past the awful advertisement & it looks like it'll do the job, but for the money I'd personally rather ferment away from where I'm serving. Also, does the unit let you brew other beers while you're drinking the first one?
Honestly, you could set up a much more practical system than this & for a lot less money, but each to there own, I really look forward hearing how you go with it. 



Cheers Ross


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## Wortgames

I'm with you Ross. I can see the value in this device as a prototyping rig for a large commercial brewery to try out recipes on a small scale using big scale methods, but to be honest I don't hold large breweries as any sort of guiding light on how I want to go about brewing my own beers.

To each his own though.

And no, from what I can tell you have to drink your brew before you can put down another.


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## doon

Well you can buy accessories to either keg or bottle it then you can start anotger brew


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## Bribie G

One beer at a time, sweet Jesus, that's all I'm asking from you


B)


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## tavas

Don't let it worry you mate. Some people buy flash cars, some build their own and some buy cheap. All work, all get you from A to B. There's no logical reason to buy a Ferrari over a Golf, but there's a passionate one.

Buy what you want, brew what you want and don't let it worry you.


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## Cocko

Agree with tavas.. Why TF would you buy a golf?.. Jokes [but serious]

Back on Topic:

So, in sense, Congratulations mate!!

Sincerely, I hope it is everything you hope it will be! :super: Your money, your life, enjoy it how ever TF you see fit.

Please keep us posted on the progress, sounds like the is some learning but quite the rig!

Cheers for sharing and hope we see more.


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## Foster

Nice one! I hope it works well for you.


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## Yob

Wadda ya rekon the re sale value is?

Photos.. Will defo need photo's


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## Liam_snorkel

SWMBO was at a corporate function a while ago with some bigwigs, the type of blokes who have serious amounts of cash to throw around. Chatting to one of them she mentioned that I'm a home brewer and he got all excited and proceeded to tell her about this whizz bang machine which makes beer for him and he doesn't have to lift a finger, saying its just like a bread machine, you just tip the stuff in and a week later you've got beer on tap! Why would you bother actually brewing?? Turns out it was one of these.


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## dicko

After having read as much as I can find on one of these units, there is nowhere in their advertising that shows HOW they work.
At this stage it just appears to be a "magic box"
Even if I did consider buying one I would want to see how the thing worked. Things like how the beer clears is what I mean.
Good luck with it to the OP I hope it does it for you.


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## Beerisyummy

> After having read as much as I can find on one of these units, there is nowhere in their advertising that shows HOW they work.
> At this stage it just appears to be a "magic box"
> Even if I did consider buying one I would want to see how the thing worked. Things like how the beer clears is what I mean.
> Good luck with it to the OP I hope it does it for you.


Did you read the instruction manual Dicko? It has plenty of pictures and things to give you a fair idea of what's going on inside.

It's one nifty bit of kit that seems to be very well made and thought out. I just can't see the cost making it accessible to the average punter.

If you've got the money burning a hole in your pocket, go for it!

(Tagging along for this one. I want to see how it performs.)


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## dicko

Beerisyummy said:


> Did you read the instruction manual Dicko? It has plenty of pictures and things to give you a fair idea of what's going on inside.
> 
> It's one nifty bit of kit that seems to be very well made and thought out. I just can't see the cost making it accessible to the average punter.
> 
> If you've got the money burning a hole in your pocket, go for it!
> 
> (Tagging along for this one. I want to see how it performs.)


I'll go back and have another read as I only skimmed through it.

Mate, I had enough trouble getting a 20 litre BM through the finance department and that was even after I had sold the 3v rig  I would have no hope on one of those..


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## doon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuLvLnXiC_U&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## dicko

Thanks for that vid doon.
Very interesting.

Now I can see how the OP is going to add his wort from the BM and let that machine do the rest
I hope he will keep us all posted as to how it all goes.

Cheers


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## doon

The thing that puzzles me is that they are putting water into the brew after they put through clearing agent. Is this not asking for an infection? ?


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## Wortgames

Hey guys, I've got a great idea for a machine. You put beer in one end, and it pisses urine against a wall at the other end. Seriously, it eliminates all that tedious drinking and liver work.

It'll cost about 20 grand but it'll be shiny as ****. Who's in?


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## dicko

WortGames said:


> Hey guys, I've got a great idea for a machine. You put beer in one end, and it pisses urine against a wall at the other end. Seriously, it eliminates all that tedious drinking and liver work.
> 
> It'll cost about 20 grand but it'll be shiny as ****. Who's in?


I realise it is very tempting to make jokes probably due to the cost of this machine, but can we try to keep this thread on topic please.

Cheers


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## dicko

doon said:


> The thing that puzzles me is that they are putting water into the brew after they put through clearing agent. Is this not asking for an infection? ?


Yes, in that video he seemed to be quite blaze e' (sp) in adding that water, maybe he had boiled it first.

Cheers


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## Bribie G

Is it possible to buy a can of the goop and do a "normal" fermentation with to see what it's like?


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## doon

Yeah pretty sure they are on website. Not sure if you can get it in Australia though


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## Elz

doon said:


> The thing that puzzles me is that they are putting water into the brew after they put through clearing agent. Is this not asking for an infection? ?


Not being an expert on brewing, the WW takes about 30 minutes to rinse, wash and sanitize. After this process is completed you add your wort (in my case still tinkering with K&K). Then put the lid on set temp and pressure, followed by daily monitoring. As I mentioned, I am not an expert in brewing but I fail to see how this process could introduce/leave room for infection. I stand to be corrected.

I would like to know if using a BM is it possible to put in boiling, or nearing boling wort, chuck the lid on set to say 23oC, wait to cool and then add the yeast? For K&K I can set the temp when it is a few degrees under or over strike temp. This process takes on 5-10 min. Boiling wort is a whole different kettle of fish though.


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## dicko

Elz said:


> Not being an expert on brewing, the WW takes about 30 minutes to rinse, wash and sanitize. After this process is completed you add your wort (in my case still tinkering with K&K). Then put the lid on set temp and pressure, followed by daily monitoring. As I mentioned, I am not an expert in brewing but I fail to see how this process could introduce/leave room for infection. I stand to be corrected.


I think doon was referring to the part where he flushed the clearing agent with a bottle of water and then stated that he let it run into the brew.....it would be fine if the water is sterile but not too good if it was from dubious sources.


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## doon

Talking about in the video he flushes the clearing agent port with water which then gets flushed into beer. Not a concern if water has been boiled etc


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## shaunous

Just watched that vid, holy mother of Zues that things flash.

It's your hobby, who cares what it costs, and TBH your probably saving more money and a less stuffing around then the rest or us actually are. It costs a lot less then all my hobbies.


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## wobbly

Answers to a couple questions

Winequip in Melbourne stock the tins of Concentrate.
I'm led to believe that they are just Black Rock "rebadged"
My original attachment answered the question about how hot the fresh wort can be. Ian Williams indicated 140C or less
Cheers

Wobbly


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## Elz

Just watched the vid. I have found that second clarification is generally not needed and I will normally drink the beer after day 5. I am not too pedantic when it come to clear beer, love coopers sparkling etc. The only issue I have found is that the sediment bottle for the stronger ales I have been brewing, around 6 % does not collect all the sediment ( for beers of < 5% probably not an issue). In the past I have 'wasted' 500 ml of beer. Now I just pull beer through the draft tap until it runs clear. Now only Wasting only 200 ml +\-.

I reckon Infection is less likely to occur in a CO2 environment, therefore having boiled water prolly less of an issue (again just guessing)


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## manticle

I wonder if he will ever consider adding a grain mashing system to the unit. That could make it pretty damn special.


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## shaunous

manticle said:


> I wonder if he will ever consider adding a grain mashing system to the unit. That could make it pretty damn special.


And more expensive


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## manticle

No doubt. Way beyond the reach of my wallet and not my style of brewing but impressive nonetheless, esp if it were to enable you to make the wort.


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## pk.sax

For that outlay I might as well buy beer.

Cost me 146.76 for 24 bottles of beer. I realised that only 4 stubbies are local, the rest are imported 'fancy' beer.

It's barely 6 bucks averaged per bottle and I've got 2 bottles of gueze, 3 saisons, some hopfen weisse, lots of other tasty stuff. Someone willing to spend that much on a beer fermenter/server needs their head checked anb their money taken away. Congratulations Ian Warn for fulfilling the latter. I'd be less than happy but for the right money I'll come do the first.


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## boonchu

Wine quip has the concentrate and the sugars to go with.
The manual has a stack of recipes and styles to try. 
The only issue has been wine quip seem to be very slow in respondingto orders for the kits.

I dont own one but have met people who do. They had to go to the lhbs to make up some recipes.


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## Elz

As with any new product the first people to adopt such technologies will normally pay a premium. In 5 years time when either the WW or the clone equivalents are retailing for substantially less and are used by the everyday home brewer then the early adopters may be vindicated. Or I could be pissing in the wind and the whole personal brewing issues may just be a passing fad.


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## Wortgames

Elz said:


> In 5 years time when either the WW or the clone equivalents are retailing for substantially less and are used by the everyday home brewer


Which everyday home brewers are these?

The kit and kilo, cheap grog crowd?

Or the serious brewer that wants to produce world class beer?

This device seems too elaborate for the former, and too restrictive for the latter. If it has a market, it is commercial breweries that need a small scale prototype brewery that employs the same speed tricks as the big rig. Or POSSIBLY a restaurant that wants to boast its own brewery on premises, but really just wants to dump and stir.

Oh, and people that don't really know how to brew but think owning something shiny with a beer tap coming out of it will impress people.

If its about the beer, you can drink world class brews for a lot less money. If it's about the brewing, well, is pushing a button on someone else's system really brewing?


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## shaunous

On the side of the WW brewers, why couldn't they make great beer with fresh worts from CB or whoever. They may not be fukin around crushing, mixing, and watching a timer like us, but a lot of busy people don't have time for that.

I would like to taste a woollies kit beer brewed through this thing and see if there is a difference


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## shaunous

WortGames said:


> If it's about the brewing, well, is pushing a button on someone else's system really brewing?


I would say, technically, Yes.


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## Wortgames

shaunous said:


> On the side of the WW brewers, why couldn't they make great beer with fresh worts from CB or whoever


Oh they can. For 5 years they can produce a slab a week of somebody else's craft brew for about $12,500. Say $15k with incidentals, sanitiser, power etc.

Edit: $58 a slab. Too late in the day for accurate maths.


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## shaunous

How much is this fukin thing, I didn't see a price posted, but I didn't think it would be that much.


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## Elz

It is about the beer. And please note that I don't give rats either way if this way of brewing takes off or not. However, I reckon that this type of device will find a market once the price point is geared more towards what the average home brewer can afford. Home brewers from my reading get into the craft for a number of reasons which includes price and quality. The WW, I believe does produce a quality product and can ferment a wide range of styles, but it is overpriced. As you point out it probably will not meet the needs of the brewers at the poles, but for many people in between it is likely to make a good adjunct to the brewing process (again subject to price). I also see as you pointed out some restaurants and cafés using a WW to market a house beer. Anything that promotes more home brew is good in my books


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## Wortgames

Again, who is this 'average' home brewer? I'd say the vast majority of home brewers fall into the two categories I outlined above. The single largest group would have to be the k-mart kit and kilo krowd. They aren't connoisseurs, they just resent paying VB prices. Many of these guys won't even pay for brew booster or new crown seals, let alone thousands (or even hundreds) of dollars on equipment.

The next group are the guys on this forum, guys who take it all a bit more seriously and enjoy the hands-on processes. We are something like chefs, and we're not in a hurry to do the brewing equivalent of buying an 'Emily's kitchen' vac-packed meal and sticking it in a posh microwave.

I'd be very interested to hear from any pre-existing home brewer who has bought one of these, and what their motivation was. It seems at the moment like it appeals to wealthy people who like the 'idea' of brewing, but can't be bothered with all the learning and hands-on stuff.


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## Cocko

shaunous said:


> How much is this fukin thing, I didn't see a price posted, but I didn't think it would be that much.



http://www.williamswarn.com/Shop


----------



## Not For Horses

6 grand new Zealand. What's that, like 37 bucks? 

I have to say though, the problems and solutions section does read quite a lot like an infomercial. I don't like it when advertisers try to convince me that I'm an idiot.
It's very shiny and nice but it smells an awful lot like a cold funny-shaped bucket.


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## shaunous

Cocko said:


> http://www.williamswarn.com/Shop


Sweet Odins Raven!


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## Camo6

You could always drop the CPBF and save yourself five hunge. Whothewhatnow?!


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## tiprya

The fermentation side of this is very impressive, love the control and the clarification in one vessel.

The wort production side is another story though...

Does anyone know if 23 degrees under pressure gives a similar amount of ester production as 18 degrees without pressure?

And I'm still perturbed by using sodium perc as a no rinse sanitiser, this goes against everything I've heard up until now.


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## MastersBrewery

In regard to ester production, it seems to be reduced, however early tastings will show higher than expected hop bitterness, this drops to normal levels over the following 7 days. Diacetyl production is actually increased in the first 36hrs, but clears up very quickly. The pressures stated don't quite make sense to me from everything else I've read 7psi is optimal for yeast growth and at 15.5psi the yeast cell walls begin to damage. Our cousins in the States, on HBT have been using and testing/ researching, pressurised fermenting since 2009. Using either sanke or corny kegs. Most of us eventually move to controlled temp, maybe the next step in that evolution is adding controlled pressure.
Food for thought: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/closed-system-pressurized-fermentation-technique-44344/


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## indica86

No dry hopping possible either from what I can see.


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## punkin

indica86 said:


> No dry hopping possible either from what I can see.


 :blink:

A $7k fermenter that won't allow dry hopping?


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## Parks

Pretty sure there's a FAQ item that says you can dry hop but it introduces the possibility of infection.


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## wobbly

On the brewing under pressure question Ian Williams answers this in the FAQ section where he talks about yeast being subjected to 1 bar (15psi) at the bottom of a 10 meter (30ft) conical as is commonly used by commercial breweries without adverse side effects and sites the positives such as faster fermentation times with reduced esters etc.
As far as dry hopping goes you can/could do this in a couple of ways - add it to the fermenter at the start of fermentation (but yeast action could strip most of the aroma out) or possibly add some hop tea to the sediment control inlet and flush it into the fermentation chamber or add some hop pellets or flowers to the sediment bottle post clarification
As I have stated before for me quality craft brewing enjoyment is designing and refining the wort (grain bill, hop schedule, mash schedule etc) and fermentation stage (yeast type fermentation temp and duration etc) and then using the best technology available to complete those functions to produce the beer I am trying to and like. It's not about standing around and stiring a pot of boiling wort it's about gaining those extra 1% that make a good beer into a great beer
I used to brew in a " bucket in a bucket" progressed to an "all in one brewery" then a three vessel system and then a Braumeister, initial fermentation was at ambient temp, then a wet rag over the fermenter to try and control temps before migrating to a temp controlled fridge and at each step along the chain the finished product got better
Just as the Braumeister made a quantum step change in wort production and repeatability I believe that the WW will do the same for/with the fermentation phase and provide a number of 1% improvements such as no exposure to Oxygen ever throughout the process, Natural carbonation, efficient yeast and sediment removal, the ability to try different fermentation temperature and pressure parameters just to suggest a few I can think of.
Most on this site willing use technology to try and improve their end product such as stir plates instead of Pet bottles, Refractrometers in stead of hydrometers, and of late Braumeisters or their clones
Not trying to convince others to follow or agree with my decision but would just wish that those that are bagging the system take the time to find out the facts and or base their comments on actual experiences rather than emotive knee jerk responses based on little or no facts

my 2c worth

Cheers

wobbly


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## shaunous

I'd say most are against it because they can't afford it, or there wives wouldn't let them buy it if they could afford. 
But maybe some other reasons also.


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## manticle

If it's fermenting under pressure, is there the same tendency for evaporation of volatiles (in particular dry hop) or is it less of an issue.

Ignorant question probably - my understanding of closed pressure systems is minimal.


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## doon

I guess it has to vent off excess pressure as you set it to a level you want, so that could cause loss of aroma etc


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## punkin

shaunous said:


> I'd say most are against it because they can't afford it, or there wives wouldn't let them buy it if they could afford.
> But maybe some other reasons also.



I have more than enough money in the bank to afford it, my wife doesn't tell me how i spend my money the same as i don't tell her how to spend hers.

I'm not against it at all, it has no bearing on my life if the OP purchases it or not.

For me the drawbacks far outweigh the positives, OP has come out on the other side of the balance.
It's a personal choice after weighing the +- and he doesn't have to justify it to anyone but himself.

Benifits;

Controlled temperature
ability to ferment under pressure
Repeatabilty
compact
serves the beer


Drawbacks;

costs thousands of dollars
serves only one beer at a time meaning either a kegerator or bottles
a week with no beer if using it as standalone every brew (for me would be 3-4 days beer, 7 days dry)
can get a much cheaper conical fermenter (or 3) and kegerator that will be able to be used as a pressurised fermenter and have all the benifits and few of the drawbacks.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Does it really have to vent off any more gas than a normal fermentation does? You're building up the pressure by trapping in the produced CO2 that would otherwise be escaping, so in terms of mass balancing there should be in fact less aroma "stripped" than a standard homebrew fermenter at atmospheric pressure.


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## Ross

Wobbly, you posted the topic on a public forum & asked for discussion, so accept you're going to get responses at every level.

You are saying you are trying to achieve the best beer possible; there are seriously better & more practical ways of doing it than this unit & though it appears not to be an issue to you, much cheaper as well.
If it ticks all your boxes, & obviously it must tick most of them as you've purchased it, good luck & hope it delivers you what you are seeking & I look forward to hearing your reviews. 


Cheers Ross

Edit: Punkin posted while I was typing, agree 100% with his reply.


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## Wortgames

I'm actually not 'against' the machine. I live for beer bling. As long as everyone understands what it is and what it isn't. And by 'everyone' I don't just mean the OP (who clearly does), I mean anyone else who might find their way to this discussion. Correct me if that isn't a big part what of public forums do.

A cashed-up beginner might easily form the opinion that this sort of thing is the Rolls-Royce of brewing gear, and that money is the only thing holding every brewer back from owning one. And that dumping a can of the manufacturer's goop and pressing the 'go' button will make them master brewers at the wave of a chequebook. Hopefully the 'naysayers' have put up reasonable arguments to balance that out.

It's a really nice fermenter with some cool tricks. But let's face it, it is far too clever for kit & kilo brewing. It's like selling a $6,000 espresso machine and capsules of Nescafe Blend 43 to go in it.


----------



## dent

> On the brewing under pressure question Ian Williams answers this in the FAQ section where he talks about yeast being subjected to 1 bar (15psi) at the bottom of a 10 meter (30ft) conical as is commonly used by commercial breweries without adverse side effects and sites the positives such as faster fermentation times with reduced esters etc.


I disagree with this perspective. While you could measure a pressure at the bottom of a large conical, by no means is this equivalent to the same pressure of CO2 closed fermenting will give you - the amount of dissolved CO2 will be completely different. 

Not that I am against fermenting under pressure, I do it all the time.


----------



## wobbly

Don't profess to know much about fermenting under pressure unlike those that do it day in and day out as a profession but this is what Ian Williams has to say and I acknowledge this quote/post doesn't address completely the question of the impact on the amount of dissolved CO2

_Q10: Does the yeast suffer under pressure?_
_A: Not at all.1 bar pressure (14.5psi) is the same as the pressure at the bottom of a 10m tank. Beer is made in 10m tanks everywhere globally. So at the bottom of such a tank its 1 bar, at the 9m mark its 0.9bar, at the 8m mark is 0.8 bar etc. So yeast circulates around the tank and ferments fine under this pressure, every day in breweries around the world. If this wasn’t true you wouldn’t have mega-breweries making zillions of litres in huge tanks. Too much pressure is an issue but 1 bar is nothing. We have even fermented at 3 bar._

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

I have to agree with dent, the 15 psi comes from the weight of the fermenting wort as the formula of static pressure (P = density x gravity x height).

So whilst this static pressure is applied by the atmosphere, closing the vessel and having the CO2 production will build more pressure up, which in turn will exert more pressure on the yeast. To what extent I CBF working it out and will assume someone on here knows the volumes of CO2 production per L fermenting wort typically?


----------



## pcmfisher

I am fairly sure anyone who bought one of these units wouldn't come on here after 6 months telling everyone what shit beer it turns out, even if it did.


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## dent

You typically run a relief valve set to your desired pressure. So the amount of CO2 generated by the yeast isn't important so long as it is enough to saturate the wort at the desired pressure - it always is so long as it was capped promptly.

Presumably this thing misses out the other main benefit of fermenting under pressure - easy oxygenation of the wort. This is done by pumping air in at high (45psi ish) pressure, thus increasing the dissolved O2 in the wort well over what can be obtained at atmospheric pressure. No air stones or O2 tanks required.


----------



## Yob

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brewery-WilliamsWarn-personal-brewery-/171128707055

0 offers at $3300 (old add)..

I might PM him and see if he still has it and offer him $500

h34r:

ed: sold for 3k


----------



## wobbly

Yob

You should also have added the comments on experience of this reluctant sale and interestingly even after spending nearly $7000 he is hopeful of burying another in a few years time

_Quote_

_I have a WilliamsWarn Personal Brewery for sale - THIS BREWERY MAKES 23 LITRES OF COMMERCIAL GRADE BEER - READY TO DRINK IN 7 DAYS - ITS AMAZING. It is a very reluctant sale and I hope to buy another WW in a few years. This WW comes with an upgraded CO2 bottle and a full kegging system (9 x 5ltre barrels) - I have made some awesome beers in this brewery and im sure the succesful buyer will too. Its the ultimate boys toy!! Oh the team at WW are a great bunch of people and provide great advice and support...Thanks 
williamswarn.com 

This is the pinnacle of brewing at home - its Amazing..!_

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## Yob

I felt that by providing the link folks could read themselves


----------



## wobbly

[SIZE=12pt]On the subject of aeration I posed a couple of questions to Ian Williams on this subject and liquid yeast. Now I'm not saying he is right or wrong but he has used this technology a lot more than anyone else as well as being a qualified professional brewer and therefore I guess has the right to comment as he does[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]My question to Ian Williams on the subject of aeration and his answer[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]My current method of brewing/fermenting is to use an air stone and aquarium pump to aerate the wort for about 30 mins prior to pitching the yeast as I understand I have “boiled”all the available oxygen out of the wort as is the common thread/view on most of the Homebrew web sites [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The dry yeast is full of nutrient and grown aerobically before drying so doesn’t need wort aeration. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]You need to aerate if you re-use yeast. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]If you made a starter for 24 hours with stir plate you also don’t need to aerate the bulk wort.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So unless you’re taking sedimented yeast from a brew you don’t need to aerate. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]My question to Ian Williams on the subject of using liquid[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Have you used any of the liquid yeast such as Wyeast or White Labs and if so able to comment on the suitability or otherwise of these yeasts [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]you can use these. Just make a1L starter and stir for 24 hours on a stir plate to give them life They’re pretty much dead when you get them but they have a great variety[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Cheers[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Wobbly[/SIZE]


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## dent

> [SIZE=medium]You need to aerate if you re-use yeast.[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=medium]If you made a starter for 24 hours with stir plate you also don’t need to aerate the bulk wort.[/SIZE]


These seem self-contradictory to me. 

I'd say the second point is incorrect anyhow. Depending on your definition of 'need' I guess.


----------



## Ross

wobbly said:


> My question to Ian Williams on the subject of using liquid
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]Have you used any of the liquid yeast such as Wyeast or White Labs and if so able to comment on the suitability or otherwise of these yeasts [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]you can use these. Just make a1L starter and stir for 24 hours on a stir plate to give them life They’re pretty much dead when you get them but they have a great variety[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=12pt]Cheers[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]Wobbly[/SIZE]


I can't believe an answer like that from an educated brewer!!! Generalising that Wyeast & Whitelabs are pretty much dead when you get them is a shocking statement. And if by chance you did receive a virtually dead packet through misuse or old age, making a 1L starter for 24hrs would be nowhere near adequate. It's statements like this & the awful advertisement produced that really don't help in feeling good about this machine.


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## wobbly

With respect to the earlier comment * "there are seriously better & more practical ways of doing it than in this unit"*
I agree that there are other ways and many may be "cheaper" but everything I have seen on this site and HBT none do the full range of functions/steps/benefits that this machine offer

You could make similar comments about modern electric/gas ovens used to cook the Sunday roast. A "Metters" wood fired oven did the same thing cheaper but arguably not better and definitely not easier

Also I wonder how many of the "Homebrew Retailers" on this site and in the general market place there would be "talking up" these machines if there was an acceptable "profit margin" in it for them. The reason TWOC doesn't sell them is just that fact he can't sell them at an acceptable mark up (to him)

Cheers

Wobbly


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## sp0rk

wobbly said:


> You could make similar comments about modern electric/gas ovens used to cook the Sunday roast. A "Metters" wood fired oven did the same thing cheaper but arguably not better and definitely not easier


Food from wood fired ovens is SO much better
But yes, no where near as easy as just slapping the roast in a gas/electric oven


----------



## Ross

As the owner of CraftBrewer I can pretty well guarantee I won't be stocking them & it's nothing to do with the profit margin (I have no idea what it is). From the info available, the machine & the technical support, do nothing to excite me.
Not sure why you are trying to defend your purchase, like Punkin, I really don't give a rats what you spend your money on, just don't expect to ask questions on a forum & not get an honest reply.

Your oven comparison is a strange one, it has little to do with the issues raised. If you were paying for an oven that was fixed to your dining table & presenting your finished food straight on to the plate it would have a little relevance.

Anyway, as said before, enjoy your purchase & i sincerely hope it meets your expectations.

Cheers Ross


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

wobbly said:


> With respect to the earlier comment * "there are seriously better & more practical ways of doing it than in this unit"*
> I agree that there are other ways and many may be "cheaper" but everything I have seen on this site and HBT none do the full range of functions/steps/benefits that this machine offer
> 
> You could make similar comments about modern electric/gas ovens used to cook the Sunday roast. A "Metters" wood fired oven did the same thing cheaper but arguably not better and definitely not easier
> 
> Also I wonder how many of the "Homebrew Retailers" on this site and in the general market place there would be "talking up" these machines if there was an acceptable "profit margin" in it for them. The reason TWOC doesn't sell them is just that fact he can't sell them at an acceptable mark up (to him)
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly


I would argue that a braumeister did more than this thing does. For less money.

And the comment:



wobbly said:


> [SIZE=12pt]..... as well as being a qualified professional brewer and therefore I guess has the right to comment as he does[/SIZE]


Ross, being a professional, award winning, commercial brewer has just as much right to comment on this too. 

And I would, having been both supplied with his goods (including his wet yeast) and having drunk enough of his beers to form a decent opinion, would take what he said over someone with a vested interest in selling me "their" product, any day of the week and twice on Sundays, regardless of the other person's qualifications.

What's the old saying? The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The proof of Ross' advice is in the beers he makes.


----------



## Wortgames

Wobbly, that machine is ONE HELL of a fermenter. Truly it is. Temperature control, pressure control, convenient yeast harvesting, sampling, and even serving if you really want to.

I'd say that the manufacturer calling it a brewery, and then peddling extract kits to run through it, opens it up to so much criticism and is what is feeding much of the negativity here. It is NOT a 'brewery', personal or otherwise. It doesn't 'brew' anything. It's just a really good fermenter. Far too good for K&K.

I've changed my mind on it, and if I could get one for a lot less money I'd definitely get one. Floor level, gravity fill from my ACTUAL brewery, transfer under pressure into cornies, it would be a very good thing indeed. But like you, I'd pay my money and take my choice regarding what it's actually worth to me. And how much you want to buy into the manufacturer's ideas on the brewing process is your business.

Twice the volume would be better, and I wouldn't tie it up just to have a single beer on tap, but I am actually jealous. That is an awesome fermenter. Enjoy it.

And sorry about taking the piss earlier.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

WortGames said:


> I'd say that the manufacturer calling it a brewery, and then peddling extract kits to run through it, opens it up to so much criticism and is what is feeding much of the negativity here. It is NOT a 'brewery', personal or otherwise. It doesn't 'brew' anything. It's just a really good fermenter. Far too good for K&K.


This.

It's still better than anything I own (or have ever owned) brewing wise. And yet it's not marketed to produce all grain beer.

I'd spend the $3500 on a braumeister and the change on a great kegerator, and enough kegs to keep a uni bar going for a week.

But as WG said above - I reckon it could be adjusted to brew all grain beer, so for the sake of future proofing - it's actually okay in that regard.


----------



## sponge

I'd slap out some money for a bit of kit like this if I was on $250k _after_ tax.

Alas, my $30 drums will fulfill that void for the time being...

It really is all down to personal preference for (brewing) gadgets though. Spend away and report back on your results!


----------



## Trevandjo

Bloody good read. Very interesting hearing everyone's passionate views which goes to reinforce that we all brew for different reasons. 

For me, I like the ability to produce a quality end product by using basic equipment and sound brewing practices. So I personally won't be buying one of these beauties. 

On another note, the promo video has raised a question for me. If I can control the output pressure and use some type if feed tube is it possible to fill bottles using my keg setup instead of bottle priming? Sorry for taking this of course. 

Trev


----------



## stakka82

It seems to me it's a bit like the old apple vs PC argument.

The apple looks cooler and is more user friendly, but costs a lot more and user-friendliness comes at the cost of true flexibility (dry hopping a pain in the ass, only one beer at a time etc).

The PC is uglier and harder to use, but allows a greater freedom of functionality and is cheaper.

Some people like Macs, some people like PCs, no wonder people on this thread have a bit to say!


----------



## Wortgames

Trevandjo said:


> is it possible to fill bottles using my keg setup instead of bottle priming?


Yep, it's called counter-pressure bottle filling (CPBF). Plenty of info on this topic.


----------



## wobbly

Let me clarify a few points:-

I have been sucked into a "pissing competition" which was never my intention
I have no need nor intention to defend or justify my decision to purchase
My comments WRT "professionals" was directed towards Ian Williams (and the likes) who publish their experiences and qualifications and I sit up and listen to them when they talk just as I do to those on the various web home brew sites
When I first started this topic it was to try and seek comments on some different aspects/methodology on brewing than those commonly expressed on this site
As stated it was my intention to encourage meaningful (hopefully) debate and/or comment on the process and views/comment made by Ian Williams as a number of posters have done
The concept of fermenting under pressure is generally in its infancy in the HB market from what I have read with only a couple on this site doing it.
This concept affords the opportunity for others to consider this method and adopt some/all of the principles if they so wish.
The discussion/topic on HBT shows you how you can do something similar but without the benefit of the clarification and serving stage
I will not comment on the many ill-informed and frivolous comments posted suffice to say "dicko" was right when he stated "lest keep this post on track"
If making these comments means that this topic dies so be it
Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## Yob

Here's previous discssion on FUP where it seems you may have been leaning toward this system well over a year ago (well you hint toward an NZ System)

There are other under pressure topics as well..

Mate, you have generated healthy debate, it's not a pissing contest as you put it, you have asked for peoples opinions and you have got them as well as some examination of some fairly uneducated comments from the purveyors of said equipment..

Personally Id rather hook up twin conicals to a Kegerator and employ matho to put some buttons on it :lol:

Seriously, dont get all up tight because people poke holes at a (perceived) over priced fermenter/dispensing unit, as long as you are happy to pay it, who gives a shit... at the end of the day the vast majority here (myself included) wouldnt throw that much coin at that sort of unit.

Just my opinion.


----------



## Bribie G

I may have posted elsewhere but when lagers were first made by UK breweries around the turn of the 19th Century (Allsops, Wrexham Lager Company etc) they were all fermented under pressure. At beervana the other year I was talking to the BIAB guy who had a stall there and he recommended fermenting lagers under pressure using a conical and a valve. Nothing new here.

Might give it a go in a cornie for next year if I decide to do lagers in the comps again.


----------



## pk.sax

Not to mention that commercial hectolitre breweries brew bland piss with the methods they employ.

Fermenting under pressure with bottom fermenting yeast pitched in massive doses compares very poorly with what home brewers do and why they do it so. Then again, I've met home brewers that ferment their beer using us05 at ambient in qld temps and can't fault themselves.

If this floats your boat, then you've already signed the cheque.

Else, there are cooling jackets out there (not cheap) and Ross sells an adjustable pressure relief gauge/valve. Also, there are available cleaning solution canisters that can be hooked up to gas, you could hook it up and force in clearing agents etc under pressure differential quite easily. Then push out the trub using a bit of pressure and serve it out of the fermenting keg. This stuff is out there to do what this wankjob brewery does, it's nothin new, neither revolutionary. If commercial brewing practices were such great stuff for home brewers then we'd have miniature 5-6 vessel brew houses or some such madness.

I saw the cascade fermenters in Hobart, they've got primary fermenters with PRVs that they then transfer off to bright tanks for a few days to a week or so ageing after. Even a home brewer sort of loosely tightening the lid on his fermenter and putting it in a temp controlled fridge does roughly the same thing.

You've doing not much more than regurgitating a sales pitch, are you surprised no one wants to take you seriously?!


----------



## Elz

Home brewing I believe is largely a personal journey which takes people down different paths, some prefer lagers, some ales some drinking sessional beers and people also have a preference for different equipment. Having just commenced my journey and being in a relative privileged position in that I was able to afford to purchase a WW I have found that I truly loving this craft. This system has given me the confidence to trial different fermenting techniques and I have brewed great tasting beers ( I may not yet be good brewer but i do know what quality beer is. hic! ). My journey towards finding beer nirvada is just starting but I have found a tool which accompanies my passion. Again its not for everyone but for those that do choose this path the rewards are out there.

As a lot of people are saying my 2-3.5 cents worth


----------



## Beerisyummy

> Home brewing I believe is largely a personal journey which takes people down different paths, some prefer lagers, some ales some drinking sessional beers and people also have a preference for different equipment. Having just commenced my journey and being in a relative privileged position in that I was able to afford to purchase a WW I have found that I truly loving this craft. This system has given me the confidence to trial different fermenting techniques and I have brewed great tasting beers ( I may not yet be good brewer but i do know what quality beer is. hic! ). My journey towards finding beer nirvada is just starting but I have found a tool which accompanies my passion. Again its not for everyone but for those that do choose this path the rewards are out there.
> 
> As a lot of people are saying my 2-3.5 cents worth


Pics please! Show us a glass!


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## MastersBrewery

Yes you can buy equipment to do all that this machine does, but you have to put it together, adjust temps and presures as you fermented, and yep even the clarification can be done. Thing is this thing does it itself, set and forget, thats the point. Yeah it's a little over priced and I mean a little, what would a morebeer conical with temp control will set you well back to get here, it won't take preasure above 5 psi and has no preasure control. I think they're over by about $1500, that said I think a Lambourgini is also over priced.

I think most of us have taken some of what the Manufacturer has stated to the OP, as fasical, I believe it's called the hard sell. I don't think the OP has in anyway stated the manufacturers statements are gospel, indeed if White labs or WYeast read this thread I'm sure the manufacturer will be getting some mail possibly of the legal kind.

End of the day it is a piece of equipment designed to do a job in specific way unattended, does it do that job ? Elz seems to think so.


----------



## shaunous

MastersBrewery said:


> Yes you can buy equipment to do all that this machine does, but you have to put it together, adjust temps and presures as you fermented, and yep even the clarification can be done. Thing is this thing does it itself, set and forget, thats the point. Yeah it's a little over priced and I mean a little, what would a morebeer conical with temp control will set you well back to get here, it won't take preasure above 5 psi and has no preasure control. I think they're over by about $1500, that said I think a Lambourgini is also over priced.
> 
> I think most of us have taken some of what the Manufacturer has stated to the OP, as fasical, I believe it's called the hard sell. I don't think the OP has in anyway stated the manufacturers statements are gospel, indeed if White labs or WYeast read this thread I'm sure the manufacturer will be getting some mail possibly of the legal kind.
> 
> End of the day it is a piece of equipment designed to do a job in specific way unattended, does it do that job ? Elz seems to think so.


Pretty much what I said but a well shorter version.

I spent $30k purchasing and restoring a 64' Belair into a hydro suspension bouncing lowrider. It was a way cool car and fit me plus 5 young ladies, but I coulda bought a brand new Holden Captiva. 

Anyway, if it works for you and your happy with it, than it's your money and your method.


----------



## thebigwilk

If this is fermenting away siting where my kegerator currently sits in my games room, there would be a bit of friction coming from the missus about the smells that the fermenting beer would be pumping out (not real good when you have guests over). + 1 for splitting up the process.


----------



## Elz

Beerisyummy said:


> Pics please! Show us a glass!


Mmmmm cold beer, well at least 3.7o C cold (first brew American amber ale)


----------



## shaunous

Looks like beer to me.


----------



## Beerisyummy

shaunous said:


> Looks like beer to me.


I guess the real proof is in how it tastes. I'd drink it to find out.

I wonder, if it was priced at $1k would people still be as harsh on the product?
The BM seems ridiculously overpriced to me, so I guess this falls into the same category.

In true AHB style, could someone point out where to buy the components to build a similar setup at a fraction of the cost?


----------



## Wortgames

Beerisyummy said:


> if it was priced at $1k would people still be as harsh on the product?


I'd buy 2 in a heartbeat, throw away the last plastic in my brewery and dump my fermenting fridge out with the hard rubbish.


----------



## Beerisyummy

WortGames said:


> I'd buy 2 in a heartbeat, throw away the last plastic in my brewery and dump my fermenting fridge out with the hard rubbish.


It was a serious question.
If you take away the cost element, how does the system rate?


----------



## Parks

Beerisyummy said:


> It was a serious question.
> If you took away the cost element, how would the system rate?


Pretty sure it was a serious answer too. I would say if it was under $2k there would be *a lot* more interest. It does look like a good piece of equipment, just really overpriced and inflexible at that price point.


----------



## MastersBrewery

Beerisyummy said:


> I guess the real proof is in how it tastes. I'd drink it to find out.
> 
> I wonder, if it was priced at $1k would people still be as harsh on the product?
> The BM seems ridiculously overpriced to me, so I guess this falls into the same category.
> 
> In true AHB style, could someone point out where to buy the components to build a similar setup at a fraction of the cost?


I think I said in an earlier post it could be done, done well and at less cost, but someone like matho or the like would need to program it up for me as I have no skills in that department. A 22gal pressure fermenter (160psi tested) is US$640.00 plus shiping from the US. temp control....lets use what we always do a fridge (not quite as blingy but will do the job) say $200 set up, preasure control say $300 (hydrostatic meter and digital massflow controler) then probably another $350 in TC clamps and valves and such. So say just over $2200 and able to do 15-18 gal.

then there would be the cost of a kegarator on top to serve

ED oh and I forgot that some poor bugger would have to do a fair bit of testing to create usable profiles for temp vs pressure fermenting in the controller)


----------



## MastersBrewery

And I'll be sure to post a build thread when I start building mine after my lotto win next Tuesday  full costings included.... think I might be short above on importing that big bugger of a fermenter


----------



## Liam_snorkel

See ya.


----------



## Yob

Have you checked out the ghetto thread?

Innovation and invention are plenty praised..


----------



## Camo6

Varied opinions, open discussion and critiquing. My god, that sort of crap should be restrained to internet forums, not here.


----------



## bradsbrew

I don't have a problem with the fermenter itself or if people choose to buy one and use it. If people are happy to spend the hard earned and have a play with a bit of bling that's great, hopefully they can give genuine feedback and comparisons to their old method. I personally would not buy one because I am a tight arse and would prefer to spend the money on other things that I believe are better, but hey that's my choice. 

However, I do have a problem with some of the brewing advice the manufacturer is giving. Some of it is very poor.

Cheers


----------



## pcmfisher

Isn't it just a big fancy one of these?
They ferment under pressure and make world class beer from a can h34r:


----------



## MastersBrewery

pcmfisher said:


> Isn't it just a big fancy one of these?
> They ferment under pressure and make world class beer from a can h34r:


well ...er yeah.... but all blingy and stainless.


----------



## Beerisyummy

Yep! Way cooler than a beer machine.

There is nothing in their (WW) literature that states you have to use the kits.

I'm not going to comment on his advice because I feel that he's based it on the market he's selling to. Business is business and there's no logic in sending yourself broke.
At $6k+ per unit I figure he might've over stepped the mark a little in that regard. Meh.

One thing I have been wondering about, is the units ability to handle something like an explosive wheat beer fermentation. If I go over half volume in my fermenters I end up with crap everywhere.

Also, does anyone know what type of clearing agent is being used? Is it isinglass?


----------



## Camo6

Beerisyummy said:


> Also, does anyone know what type of clearing agent is being used? Is it isinglass?


 Wobbly mentioned it somewhere back a couple pages.


----------



## doon

Its in video I posted and on website under ingredients


----------



## doon

http://www.williamswarn.com/Shop/Brewing-Accessories/Clarification-Agent


----------



## doon

Hmmm sorry doesnt say what it is


----------



## Beerisyummy

Cheers guys. I'll go skim through the thread again.


----------



## Elz

A wise man said 'Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire' (Wallace), if it happens to be achieved encased in a little bling it is still a great discovery.


----------



## dicko

Beerisyummy said:


> Also, does anyone know what type of clearing agent is being used? Is it isinglass?


Yes I would be interested in that info as well!


----------



## bum

From http://independentbeers.com/2012/01/interview-williamswarn-the-worlds-first-personal-brewery/:



> *Your site mentions a “special clarification agent”. What is this product and does it need to be purchased exclusively from you, or can it be bought from your local homebrew store?*
> 
> This is one of our few secrets. Took me a while to figure this part of the process out so it’s our IP for the moment.


----------



## bradsbrew

Would they not have to provide an MSDS for it?


----------



## rehabs_for_quitters

this sort of tells you what market they are after, 36 months interest free, um impulse spenders,

can't believe you guys don't have them in the local harvey norman as well

http://www.harveynorman.co.nz/home-appliances/kitchen-appliances/juice-and-beverage-makers/williamswarn-all-in-one-personal-brewery.html


----------



## Beerisyummy

> Would they not have to provide an MSDS for it?


Definitely! Are you gunna ask for one, or do you want me to contact them?
By law they must provide one upon request (AFAIK).

PS. I can't help but feel a little scared about all this homebrewed alcohol attention in the media lately.
Is the government gearing up to try for another cash grab?


----------



## bradsbrew

Ha ha go for it. I would be interested in their reply though.


----------



## Beerisyummy

> Ha ha go for it. I would be interested in their reply though.


My good sir, I will send the Australian distributor an email shortly.

I'm driving up to Brizzy early tomorrow so I might have to annoy Craftbrewer first, but I'll get one out of them.


----------



## tavas

You can provide an MSDS without being very specific. There is some scope to protect trade secrets.


----------



## bum

Someone wanna take the vegan angle in an email?


----------



## pk.sax

Ya no Bum, where I grew up, manufacturers were required, by law, to list exact chemical composition of products manufactured by chemical processing on the label. That included medicines. Any food additives even naturally processed had to list full ingredients. Of course, they hadn't heard of things like MSDS back there.


----------



## Beerisyummy

> Someone wanna take the vegan angle in an email?


That was my first thought mate. I don't think they'd give up the booty for that one.

The MSDS does not need to be specific, but I'm pretty sure it must include the main components of any product. Will do some checking to find out what I'm entitled to request.
In that regard, I feel the vege angle is very relevant. There's probably a few laws that are specific to food as well.

I think we all know it won't take much to figure out what's being used. Truth be told, it won't affect his sales much either when you see they sell them in Harvey N. http://www.harveynorman.co.nz/index.php?subcats=Y&status=A&pshort=N&pfull=N&pname=Y&pkeywords=N&search_performed=Y&q=brewery&dispatch=products.search

Snaps to the guy for pushing a product that will result in a lot of cheap 2nd hand buys for us blokes. :beerbang:


----------



## indica86

> All 80 official beer styles can be made as well as the option to develop your own*
> *36 Months interest free!!!


What???


----------



## tavas

Beerisyummy said:


> That was my first thought mate. I don't think they'd give up the booty for that one.
> 
> The MSDS does not need to be specific, but I'm pretty sure it must include the main components of any product. Will do some checking to find out what I'm entitled to request.
> In that regard, I feel the vege angle is very relevant. There's probably a few laws that are specific to food as well.
> 
> I think we all know it won't take much to figure out what's being used. Truth be told, it won't affect his sales much either when you see they sell them in Harvey N. http://www.harveynorman.co.nz/index.php?subcats=Y&status=A&pshort=N&pfull=N&pname=Y&pkeywords=N&search_performed=Y&q=brewery&dispatch=products.search
> 
> Snaps to the guy for pushing a product that will result in a lot of cheap 2nd hand buys for us blokes. :beerbang:


Might be a bit different now Here is an MSDS I found for Leachwell, which used to contain cyanide (there were two recipes, with and without cyanide). Ingredients listed as "Mixture of mild organic oxidants 98%. Lead nitrate 2%".
Not very specific


----------



## Beerisyummy

Ahh! **** ut!
U'll take three!

http://www.harveynorman.co.nz/home-appliances/kitchen-appliances/juice-and-beverage-makers/williamswarn-all-in-one-personal-brewery.html

Go Harvey, Go!

I'm totally amazed at this whole business launch. Audacious is an understatement.


----------



## Beerisyummy

> Might be a bit different now Here is an MSDS I found for Leachwell, which used to contain cyanide (there were two recipes, with and without cyanide). Ingredients listed as "Mixture of mild organic oxidants 98%. Lead nitrate 2%".
> Not very specific


Fair point Tavas. I believe that they'll have a fair bit of nonsense to cover up the exact ingredients, but it won't be too hard for people to work out what's in the mix.


----------



## shaunous

If its an MSDS it has to be specific to that brand of chemical. You cant just handout an MSDS titled 'Unknown Beer Clearing Agent'. If they do have their own clearing agent, comparing their WW brand to a known brand will give you the chemical breakdown differences if any (to a certain point), will also tell you how much will kill a mouse, incase your wondering. 

I'd see what they come back with.


----------



## Camo6

This is from one of Wobbly's earlier posts if it helps:



The clarifying agent is* "Colloidal Silica Oxide" *available at a number of outlets. TWOC has a product called "Sabisol 300" (I think or something like that) however my Dr Google search failed to find it so maybe I have the spelling incorrect. But in any event here is a link to a German product http://www.klebosol.com/applications/colloidal-silica-beverage/ that is widely used in beer clarification. I don't see why you couldn't use gelatine if you didn't mind animal products in your beer.


----------



## shaunous

Maybe some of you miners who have access to online programs like ChemWatchGOLD can do a few searches, my old password just failed.


----------



## TSMill

So can anyone enter the Asian Beer Awards with their 3rd batch of kit home brew?


----------



## rehabs_for_quitters

Just been thinking about this unit while drinking a few last night, I am thinking the sedimanet removal system would be a great way to farm yeast I am looking at getting some stainless conicals and might make something up like that to capture yeast slurry easily, no mucking around just take off the vessel and stick it in the fridge
Also if it's an all in one kind of thing your after have a look at http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Beer-brewing-equipment-homebrewing-equipment-brewery-testing-unit-lager-beer-producing-machine-ale-brewing-device-equipment/952597827.html
ok its not quite as wanky but it does have two fermenters,you still need a keg setup though but I am sure the weigh off of two fermenters and being able to brew AG is worth not having a tap on it


----------



## MastersBrewery

rehabs_for_quiters said:


> Just been thinking about this unit while drinking a few last night, I am thinking the sedimanet removal system would be a great way to farm yeast I am looking at getting some stainless conicals and might make something up like that to capture yeast slurry easily, no mucking around just take off the vessel and stick it in the fridge
> Also if it's an all in one kind of thing your after have a look at http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Beer-brewing-equipment-homebrewing-equipment-brewery-testing-unit-lager-beer-producing-machine-ale-brewing-device-equipment/952597827.html
> ok its not quite as wanky but it does have two fermenters,you still need a keg setup though but I am sure the weigh off of two fermenters and being able to brew AG is worth not having a tap on it


That loos like it has a brau clone hanging off it. Nice find!!!


----------



## rehabs_for_quitters

And it's on wheels so you could roll it into the lounge to brew on cold nights


----------



## wobbly

In answer to those that were inquiring I can confirm that the "Clarification Agent" that was delivered with my purchase is "Colloidal Silicon Dioxide" and the label states "Product of Germany"

Directions for use are:-

Add approximately 1ml per litre of cold beverage. Stir well but avoid oxidation of the product. Allow 24 hours settling. repeat again without disturbing the sediment for a rapid clarification in 48 hours.
Remove the settled sediment from the beverage
Trust this is of use to some

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## rehabs_for_quitters

So Wobbly have you chucked a brew down in it yet?


----------



## joshF

http://www.harveynorman.co.nz/home-appliances/kitchen-appliances/juice-and-beverage-makers/williamswarn-all-in-one-personal-brewery.html

Did someone say rip off? This was already posted a few years back (http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/61575-williams-warn-personal-brewery/) but thought i would post it for a mid-week laugh. Plus the price has increased since the above post.

God damn, people clearly must be buying these things for the manufacturers to keep producing them. But whyyyy?!?!

Why spend all that cash on.... extract beer with a keg setup?

For $7,300 this makes a brand new braumeister & kegerator combination seem like pocket money (when they are definitely not).

Thoughts?


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

There's a current thread on this unit in the same forum here http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/76912-williamswarn-personal-brewery/


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

*MOD: *Guys, I've merged the "Harvey Norman" thread onto this one as they deal with the same thing.


----------



## djar007

Or this from China. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/50L-Used-Brewery-For-Sale/722183221.html
The ww brewery is nicely built. But they are pricing themselves out of the market.


----------



## wobbly

In reply to the above post I have started a Pilsner brew in the WW and trying to clone an Emersons Pilsner

The basics of the wort etc for a 23lt brew are as follows

Grain

4.25kg Wy Pils
0.25kg Wy Carapils
50g Riwaka @ 60
30g Riwaka @ 30
Saflager 34/70
Mashed at 53C for 15
45 @ 62C
30 @ 72C
15 @ 78C
Cooled with immersion chiller to 40Cand then transferred to WW
WW cooled to 25C in about 30 mins
Rehydrated yeast and pitched at 25C
WW set to 15C and cooled in about another 30 mins and holding stable
Set VPRV to 1.25 bar and left to do it'\s thing
I will take and record daily SG throughout fermentation and will post results of process from wort into WW to first beer out in about a weeks time

wobbly


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Taste report in 4 days (just so we know it really completes in 4 days)?

Photos or it didn't happen B)


----------



## wobbly

Well you will just have to trust me that the data I post will be factual won't you.

And any event if you had taken the time to understand the technology and process you would be aware that from pitching to drinking a clarified and carbonated Lager takes 9 days.

Photos will only detail the clarity and possibly head retention they don't tell you the important details about the brew such as taste and aroma and as far as I know they haven't got around the difficulties with real time "Smell-a-vision" or even thought about how to master "Taste-a-Cam"

Wobbly


----------



## Parks

A lager in 9 days is pretty impressive if it turns out.


----------



## Bribie G

The clearing compound, colloidal silicon dioxide, sounds like some stuff I got from MHB a couple of years ago, silica gel was in the name I'm pretty sure, but he doesn't stock it now according to the site. Worked ok but I went back to BrewBright.


----------



## rehabs_for_quitters

The clearing agent is a filler compound found in everything from paint to drugs not what I would call revolutionary Intellectual Property that williams or warn was claiming


----------



## wobbly

Now I am defending WW as I consider it important that correct and factual information is provided

A search of the WW site dose not indicate that the clarification agent is any "Intellectual Property" and states that the product is a common product used in brewers world wide

Wobbly


----------



## Dan Pratt

Is it the co2 pressure that enable's the faster ferment or just the higher temp?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

$50-60 per brew for the kits from HN......

Gunna buy me some kits from Coopers and re-label them as suitable for the WW and sell them on-line


A fool and his money...


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Pratty1 said:


> Is it the co2 pressure that enable's the faster ferment or just the higher temp?


Damn good question. Certainly higher temps result in a faster ferment ( yeast can handle up to 40*c ). How the pressure affects ferm time and taste is the $7,299 question


----------



## dent

You don't need a WW to find out. I can crank out a lager in a week ([email protected]), but I do need plenty of yeast to work with.


----------



## wobbly

In view of some of the negative comments, like it being an expensive kit machine etc., posted by some at the start of this topic (I acknowledge that there has been a number of posters that have added constructive comments also) I thought it would be beneficial to post some feed back from the system designer who I have been corresponding with

At the outset it is worthwhile restating Ian Williams qualifications and experience that in my view make him eminently qualified to make a lot of the points he does.

Formal Degree in Food Technology
Master Brewer from the Institute of Brewers London
Brewing Consultant at Danbrew
Brewing Consultant at Alfred Jorgensen Laboratory
Brew Master at Hainan Asia Pacific Breweries
Brew Master at Tiger Brewery Singapore
Brew Master at DB Breweries
I brought this thread and comment to Ian's attention and the following is his response.

_Okay so I read some of the comments ....all wrong and that's why I stay away from these guys....they're really dumb and don't understand beer making like a brew master_
_Examples_

_The Cost. They have no understanding of what it costs to build something like this. It's expensive only because it's new. laptops came out at AU$25,000 in the 80's. The first flat screen was AU$30,000. That's just how it is until you're making 1000's per day. We've sold 370 of these units to 370 happy customers. The stainless cost us almost $1000 and that's first part of 100 parts_
_The void does exist. 32% of New Zealand men are ex-home brewers. 0.3% do it. The fail rate is huge because people don't know how to brew. To solve this is what we have done but it can't be done for $500. These guys are rare because they stuck at it. But for every 1 of them there are 100 who quit_
_You could set it all up your self but that's still DIY. Did you build your own oven, vacuum cleaner, fridge, espresso coffee machine, bread maker. We're an appliance as well as the worlds smallest brewery (from fermentation onwards). And we need to be doing it properly. And these guys have been brewing for years and got over the hump of making bad beers. Most men can't be bothered doing that. They want easy and properly. So I found what the reason were for 32% of all Kiwis quitting the hobby and solved it all at once_
_The ageing is a myth thing I mean that you don't have to age beer to make it good. The myth is that it needs to stand for two months in a bottle. That's untrue. 95% of the worlds beers are not aged for long periods before bottling and sold. It's a simple fact. DB here makes beer sold to 1.5 million people each week and its made in 6 days. A dark beer like that guys Irish Red will be ok after 18 months as the stale flavours may be hidden but that doesn't mean it wasn't ok a week after it was bottled if he brewed it properly. His beer will still have staling aldehydes that have increased over time and if he thinks that's fine then great. Enjoy_
_2 - 3 months will not improve lawn mower beer. Beer is best fresh. The lawn mower beer will have increases in trans-2-nonenal, benzaldehde, 2 acetyl furan, all sorts of aldehydes. What these guys never mention is what about it is improved? They'll say "young beer flavours" and "it needs to mellow" or "soften the bitterness" such but never exactly what it is and if it was over the taste threshold for that chemical when bottled and whether they've measured it in a lab before and after 3 months and now its lower than the taste threshold and drinkable. If you're going to make a fresh brew that needs off-flavour aged out of it you're doing something wrong. That myth gets told over and over again_
_Liquid yeast is really weak. Brewers use yeast only up to 5 days max storage. That's because intracellular glycogen reserves get eaten by the yeast and so the lag phase in the next fermentation becomes really long and fermentation fails. A vial or smack pack that is 6 months old has yeast that is not really vital. Maybe viable (live) but not vital (full of energy) and so it needs the aeration of a starter to get the remaining living cells to breed and make new fresh cells full of sterols and fatty acids for cell growth during the main fermentation_
_You can use your own wort in this. Its fermentation onwards. All grainers buy this._
_Yes aging is good for special beers like old ales and lambics. But that's 0.1% of the world beer market so I was talking about the above for "normal" beers_
_Commercial beers have a 450 million dollar turn over. To criticise them as something that is of no value is to just show a mind that works poorly. VB, Heineken, Budweiser, Corona are loved by millions of people and are valid beer styles. To knock one beer style over another is stupid. All beer is great. And to say 6 billion people have something wrong with their taste buds makes no sense. They are billion dollar brands because they are quality products. Fact. If you prefer an IPA ok, doesn't mean VB tastes like acetic acid._
_A guy made his 3rd batch of beer in one of our breweries and beat 45 of the worlds biggest breweries in a beer comp. He was the only home brewer to have ever done that in the history of brewing. The only other guy to have done that did it this year with one of our Gen2 machines. Both used our extract. The breweries they were up against were all grain brew houses worth millions. In that moment we showed that the idea that modern homebrew extracts is not as good as all grain brews is another myth told by the arrogant all grain home brewers in order to make themselves feel better about themselves. If there is a problem with our extract, the 20 beer judges in a blind beer tasting comp would have marked these guys beer down. Fact. A home brewers all grain set up will not be as good as a modern Krones or Briggs Brew house. So we beat the highest standard of all grain worts with extracts. What it shows is the evaporation process to make extract is of no consequence. As is the evaporation process during malting, hops drying and wort boiling. Our extract is also made from all grain in a brew house. So it's also all grain. the only difference is evaporation and rehydration. water molecules moving out and back in. No big deal_
_Feel free to post this if you want. You will fire them up no end. Would be fun to see the reactions. But don't worry about it. They are just internet trolls. Not my market. My market are smarter men than these guys. I look forward to you making great wort in the BM and great beer with our unit. You can't go wrong_
_Cheers_
_Ian_

Food for thought

Wobbly


----------



## manticle

Wobbly: Can you ask him if he ever has any intentions of adding a wort production section to it?

Forgetting the overdone quality of AG vs extract argument, obviously some people enjoy making their own wort (you included) so I'm wondering if he would ever consider a model that incorporates that.

Cheers

Only thing written there I have an issue with is this



> They are billion dollar brands because they are quality products.


His comment about knocking one style over another I agree with but there are better examples of pale lager out there so it's not about style. Something selling well is not proof of quality, otherwise McDonalds would be quality food and the ******* awful shite that passes for contemporary pop would be quality music. Bold and the beautiful, two and a half men and all sorts of other well marketed superficial, meaningless shit would be quality, as would cheap white bread and sugary soft drinks. People buy stuff without thinking - doesn't indicate any level of quality beyond shelf stability and advertising.

Otherwise interesting response and many valid points.


----------



## Parks

While I agree with at least 85-90% of what he said his attitude is arrogant doesn't do him any favours.

What he doesn't understand is threads like this can really make a product when someone googles it. He had the opportunity to be humble and make solid explanations.

I am happy for your purchase and look forward to "one of us" reporting back on the actual use and results.


----------



## bradsbrew

Thanks for sharing wobbly, the manufacturer does come across as a bit arrogant but hey he is defending his product. Is it my interpretation or does 10 contradict 9?

Also with reference to 6, he has grouped vials and smack packs as the same. I do not believe this to be the case. Smack packs do have a nutrient that is activated upon smacking which promote cell growth which is indicated during the swelling stage.

Cheers Brad


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Someone had better email Coopers and tell them to stop aging their beers for a minimum of 6 weeks before being released ftom the warehouse.


----------



## Parks

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Someone had better email Coopers and tell them to stop aging their beers for a minimum of 6 weeks before being released ftom the warehouse.


I can see there is definitely a "marketing" thing going on. I really would love if Wobbly would do stout, robust porter type beer and see if it changes after fermentation after 6 weeks. I know mine have a marked mellowing or whatever over that time.

​Maybe pressure changes it, maybe using quality extracts which are in themselves somewhat aged?

Either way, I sincerely hope Wobbly does give us some trials, videos / photos, cause even if most of us think it's not value etc it's still brew porn and there isn't anything on this site that works the same way.


----------



## Camo6

While still keen to see you gain the most from this investment Wobbly, I agree with the others about Ian's demeanor. I disagree with his opinion that we're all 'really dumb', no matter how eloquently stated! I do however agree that he has created the world's smallest brewery (from fermentation onwards). To the best of my knowledge it's the world's only brewery (from fermentation onwards).
And though Ian might not think that we, the members of this forum, are the market he aims for, it might pay you to inform him that you've been a member since 2005!
As for this: "_You will fire them up no end. Would be fun to see the reactions. But don't worry about it. They are just internet trolls" _ really has no place on this forum and does nothing towards the good vibe.

All this aside I'm looking forward to hearing the results of your first batch as with the help of a BM, a solid recipe and a controlled fermentation chamber I can't see how you could churn out anything more than a cracking beer.

Cheers


----------



## Mr. No-Tip

wobbly said:


> _they're really dumb and don't understand beer making like a brew master_


Translation: rather than try to convince the 0.3% homebrewers I mentioned, maybe explain why their concerns are invalid using my plethora of qualifications and superior brewing intellect, I am just going to burn bridges and alienate the keenest and most spend-likely cohort among them by calling them dumb internet trolls.

Guess all that brewing education didn't leave much room for marketing education/not being a dick education.

Yours sincerely,
Apparent internet troll not brewer.


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## Elz

Price, price, price, yawn, price price, price price, yawn, yawn, yawn. Price is a relative term. For instance I would not pay 50 cents for a six pack of wit beer, others would pay $20. So while some may argue that paying $7000 for a WW you could make the best home brew system and still have hundreds left over for grain and the best kegerator etc, you may be missing the point. This system, as mentioned above is designed for home brewers with different needs/wants/desires of which price is considered, but other aspects come into play: design, streamlined process, ascetics, compact, ease of operation and other aspects pertinent to individual purchasers. 

It definitely is not for everyone and some will never be converted, however it allows me to brew quality home brew so it works for me. Plus the beer tastes great!


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## Ducatiboy stu

He has designed a mini mega-swill brewery. A big mac you can cook at home.


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## Parks

Elz said:


> it allows me to brew quality home brew so it works for me. Plus the beer tastes great!


There are hundreds, if not thousands of brewers on here who make great tasting beer. When I was young I used to make Coopers tins which I said tasted great.

Elz, or Wobbly - can someone make a DrSmurto's Golden Ale so we can have a taste off!


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## pimpsqueak

No way!!! DB cranks out cans of putrid swamp water in 6 days? Who would have guessed?

Are all master brewers that pump out tasteless megaswill this arrogant?
All he has managed to do is ensure that if the price ever comes down to sub $200, I still won't buy it on principal.


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## djar007

You dont need him to justify your purchase wobbly. As long as you are happy with it thats awesome. What is overpriced to one person is spare change to the next. A braumeister and one of these units certainly simplifies the whole process. And it looks great. Marketing behind it is very good. Nothing wrong there. I remember a few issues back in BYO magazine seeing the elctronic brewery guys setup at home. A great way to showcase the process of making beer using a very extravagant setup. But it was a life choice to go down that path for the guy that built it and it made him happy. As I am sure it does you. Common goal here is to brew beer we can stand behind and be proud of. I look forward to a few pictures of your experiences with the whole setup. Regards Dave.


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## Ducatiboy stu

Elz said:


> It definitely is not for everyone and some will never be converted


Even less now after his rather illuminating statements. 

He certainly needs to learn marketing 101. Bit like an F1 driver saying that the winner at Bathurst cant drive a car.


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## Elz

Parks said:


> There are hundreds, if not thousands of brewers on here who make great tasting beer. When I was young I used to make Coopers tins which I said tasted great.
> 
> Elz, or Wobbly - can someone make a DrSmurto's Golden Ale so we can have a taste off!


Nope, not yet anyway. Did some brewing in my 20's and now in my 40's have brewed 7 WW batches. Started with standard K&K WW, moved to some coopers K&K, try some K&K from LHBS and experimented with some dry hopping. Slowly progressing to extract and will probably move to all grain once I have mastered the basics; hopefully after 15-20 brews. Want to try some stouts in winter and then hope to make a half decent DrSmurto's Golden Ale. No rush but I do aspire to utilize/pushWW to the limits.


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## Beerisyummy

Elz said:


> No rush but I do aspire to utilize/pushWW to the limits.


Any news yet on what those limits are?

-Have you tried a wheat beer with a runaway krausen? Does this issue vanish under pressure or will it clog up the spunding valve?

-Could you throw a power meter on the unit while the unit is holding temp and let people now how efficiently it runs?

-Just how well does the cooling unit function under load? Can it cold crash a lager for a week in a hot garage?

-Is the unit better at driving an F1 car or a v8 supercar? Scratch that!

-If I buy one will my dad be bigger than your dad? Scratch that too.

I really think these sort of things are the important questions that need answering. It's obvious to most people that any sound vessel ,with a little bit of temperature control, can be used to ferment out a wort.

Pushing the limits means that you have to exceed them at some point. When you guys start to encounter problems with the setup, I think that will be the information that becomes most useful.

Peace out and happy brewing!


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## wobbly

Details of an e-mail I got last night from a guy in SA who also owns a WW.

"I'm an all grain brewer and I've been brewing for about 40 years now, ever since Gogh Whitlam legalised home brewing, and I own a WW
The best investment I ever made.
My two daughters have said they will fight over who's going to get the unit when I'm gone
I bought the unit originally, as an engineer, I was after perfection. The WW along with my 50 litre Braumeister offered exactly what I was after. Unfortunately my Braumeister was stolen which is a long story on it's own, I've nearly saved enough for again for another 50 litre unit."

From the tone of the e-mail he obviously isn't a cashed up bogan but someone who sees value in quality products as I do.

When I have completed a few brews to my satisfaction and after the festive season I will do some of the things others have asked such as power usage, and brew a Dr S Golden Ale or a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone and maybe even forward a bottle or two to a couple of the "movers and shakers" that have been making constructive comments for then to evaluate and comment on

Wobbly


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## TSMill

The thing is not bad value when you take into account that a spatula costs $20.86 in New Zealand! 

http://www.williamswarn.com/Shop/Brewing-Accessories/Stirring-Spoon

And this guy has the gall to call home brewers dummies!

I can understand him getting his back up, most home brew sites seem to include a thread where the consensus is this thing is an expensive toy and does not consitute "real" brewing (when used with the extract kits as designed). I think Ian would be better served politely acknowledging that his is but one path to an excellent, quality controlled fermented beverage, and that existing all grain brewers/DIYers are not really his target market, and are not inferior for rejecting his toy as the one true path to brewing excellence. 

Every party at my house, the one token slab of bought beer (usually an above average mainstream german lager) sits untouched whilst my kegs take a smashing. So there's one example of a home brew dummy beating the billion dollar breweries *WITHOUT *a WW. Pretty sure I'm not the only one. 

I reckon this thing would make far more sense with room for 1-2 cornies on the dispense side, with direct transfer from the fermenter. Would address the largest perceived weakness of the system (downtime between having beers on tap) for what should be an incremental price increase.


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## Ducatiboy stu

From what I can gather, Ian comes from the megaswill end of brewing, which is all about production,production & production. Maybe if he was from micro/craft brewing end he may not be as arogant.


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## real_beer

wobbly said:


> Unfortunately my Braumeister was stolen which is a long story on it's own, I've nearly saved enough for again for another 50 litre unit."
> 
> Wobbly


 :icon_offtopic:
I hope the prick who stole it brews a lifetime of nothing but bad beer full of infections & foul flavours! 
Do they have a serial number on them? As so few come up for sale second hand it would be nice to think there's a chance he could be caught down the line if he ever tried to sell it.
No home contents insurance Wobbly?

It might be worth attaching something like this on your next one.



Cheers


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## wobbly

Not my Braumeister that was stolen. It appears you have miss read the post. the unit that was stolen was from the guy who sent me the e-mail and in any event I only have the 20 litre size which is big enough for me.

And I would think that the winner of Bathurst's car would have cost about the same as the F1 unit and that the driver would not be you average street hoon!!!

Wobbly


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## rehabs_for_quitters

wobbly said:


> Now I am defending WW as I consider it important that correct and factual information is provided
> 
> A search of the WW site dose not indicate that the clarification agent is any "Intellectual Property" and states that the product is a common product used in brewers world wide
> 
> Wobbly


 Wobbly I wasn't having a crack at the system me old son  I'd have a row of them if they were priced a little more my pocket friendly, the quote I was referring to was stated in Post #150 of this topic

Quote


> *Your site mentions a “special clarification agent”. What is this product and does it need to be purchased exclusively from you, or can it be bought from your local homebrew store?*
> 
> This is one of our few secrets. Took me a while to figure this part of the process out so it’s our IP for the moment.


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## real_beer

wobbly said:


> Not my Braumeister that was stolen. It appears you have miss read the post. the unit that was stolen was from the guy who sent me the e-mail and in any event I only have the 20 litre size which is big enough for me.


 :icon_cheers:


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## wobbly

Rehabs ---- No worries mate didn't take it as a crack or cheap shot. My mission is to just make sure that the correct and up to date current information is put out there

The quote/reference was made by BUM and was from an interview dated 23 January 2012 just after WW had released their Gen1 appliance and now it is common knowledge what the product is as it is detailed on the bottle whilst I admit the actual product details are is not specifically stated on the web site under accessories

Wobbly


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## contrarian

Looking forward to hearing the results of using this. It looks like a great piece of kit and adds a serious level of control to the fermentation process which is tricky even with temperature control etc. the up front cost is a factor but you wouldn't have to be brewing for all that long to be ahead over buying half decent beer on a regular basis!

For what it's worth I think commercial breweries have a different focus from craft breweries or home brewers. For any commercial venture you need to be able to replicate a product exactly over and over again. With the big majors I would guess that this means doing this as economically as possible which means limiting the number of ingredients an looking for further efficiency. I think it was VB a while back that dropped their ABV by a few tenths a of a percent which would have saved them a truckload in excise over time. It wasn't well received and they reverted to their original recipe. 

Craft breweries also need replicability but are aiming for a niche market so are prepared to have greater variety and drop more coin on ingredients to differentiate their product. 

Home brewing has less focus on replicability and more on experimentation and exploration on the breadth and depth of beer styles. Home brewers might have a couple of go to recipes but also try a lot of different styles and recipes within styles. Some enjoy brewing for competitions and in style, others care more about whether or not they enjoy the finished product. 

For those who want replicability in their home brew things like this and the braumeister are fantastic in the level of control they add to the home brew process. 

Enjoy mate, I hope your beers are tasty and this adds to your enjoyment of a wonderful hobby!


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## shaunous

Good luck with it Wobbly. 

This guy isn't arrogant, his sticking up for his baby after the internet is bullying it to pieces.

And giving someone shit about only be a mega-swill brewer and not a craft brewer is what makes some of you sound like 'home brewing dummies', you rather be broke and making good home brew craft beer, or being employed to make mega-swill and feeding your family (while you would probably be making good beer at home anyway)? It's a job people, and a place to do your training.

I'll never own the thing, and would rather spend my money on something else, but don't mean I think it's an absolute exy piece of crap.


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## Mr. No-Tip

shaunous said:


> you rather be broke and making good home brew craft beer, or being employed to make mega-swill and feeding your family .


Given the choice, is rather pay the bills elsewhere and make my own beer on my own terms. Not to say you can't do that on a WW, but the creators CV suggests a less than creative portfolio...


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## indica86

The guy comes across as an arrogant fool. There is no way I'd buy his machine based purely on his attitude.
Apparently I know nothing and he knows it all.
Top looking bit of kit made and marketed by a wanker with no idea and no social skills. Perhaps he suffers from some form of Autism.


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## djar007

I hope you don't limit all your purchasing choices to the personality of the owner of the company. I certainly wouldn't own a mac if that was the case.


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## Mr. No-Tip

djar007 said:


> I hope you don't limit all your purchasing choices to the personality of the owner of the company. I certainly wouldn't own a mac if that was the case.


I tend to agree, but it doesn't help... I don't think Steve Jobs got someone else to post in "macs suck" calling the windows fans stupid.


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## wobbly

I have resisted the urge to respond in kind to the negative posts and rather post a few more of what I see as positives of this system

Making good craft beer is a lot more scientific than a lot here give credit for and is certainly not standing around some sort of boiling cauldron mumbling weird phrases and spells. You need a lot of very specific knowledge of the process, ingredients and how to use them to best effect. Yes a bit mother hood and apple pie I know but some on this site need to be reminded of that from time to time. Use very basic budget cans of goo or grains and hop oils and ferment at whatever the ambient temperature on any given day is and you will reap the your reward by producing basically pretty awful alcohol. The other end of the scale is to use quality grains, the very best and freshest hops and modern well engineered equipment that will enable you to consistently produce high quality wort and then ferment that wort with quality fresh yeast in a well engineered controlled environment and you will produce the quality of beer you want and will enjoy.

The Braumeister revolution got a lot of brewers away from the "witch craft" model and enabled, in my view, quality wort to be brewed consistently with a minimum of effort.

The Williams Warn, again in my view, is the next step along the continuum of excellence as it replaces a whole range of DIY systems that have been developed by guys trying to replicate/emulate what the quality craft breweries achieve. Go into any of the better craft breweries and you will not see pots of boiling wort attended by "old hags" mumbling secret spells or multitudes of devices trying to replicate conical fermenters, pressure fermentation, natural carbonation and maturation of their beers.

The guy from SA I referenced above who also owns a WW stared out with a 3V Bilchman set up, then went BIAB, and finally to a Braumeister and now compliments that with a WW and comments that he has never made better beer as easily. He lives near McLaren Vale and is very friendly with the owner of the local medium sized Craft Brewery and the owner comments that the BM/WW set up makes better beer than he does at the craft brewery and I guess to some extent there is a bit of pissing in the pocket going on as well

Making better beer would have a fair bit to do with the quality of inputs as well as a controlled and repeatable process and if no expense is your criteria and you have unlimited resources at your disposal then you will make better beer as indicated by this quote by the owner of Bacchus Brewery taken from an interview published in a recent James Squires e-mail mail out.

_We have an array of ingredients that probably every brewery would be jealous of- we've got a selection of well over 100 different grains, 100 different yeasts, 100 different hops, so we never have to think about what we're using. We can brew anything we want with no regard really to cost or how we operate - we make the best beer we can from the ingredients we have and then charge accordingly for the finished beer. The beauty of our situation is that it allows us to experiment on an unparalleled scale._

The full article can be vied here www.jamessquires.com.au/beer/craft-beer-tasting/bacchus-brewing

Much has been said about the cost of these units and individuals have used their resourcefulness to replicate the Braumeister but along the way there have been quite a number of issues with putting together the electronics, sealing the malt pipe and pump selection to mention a few. Not that I want to take anything away from these guys efforts but from where I sit it seems to be as much about the DIY challenge as it is about trying to produce better beer.

In my youth guys spent most if not all of their money on trying to make the FJ Holden go faster by rebuilding the engine with larger valves, polishing cylinder head ports, planed heads, fitting turbo chargers, race cams and water injection systems. Now those rev heads that want to go fast just go out and buy the latest V8 Holden of 'Fraud" because it's not a continual money pit, does the job better than anything their predecessors DIY jobs did and is not subject to continual break downs.

With all the references to the high cost of these units (Braumeisters and WilliamsWarn) and comments like "I would never purchase one in a fit at those costs" I often wonder how much they invested in the "significant other half" when she said "put a ring on it" both for the ring and the subsequent one day event that followed. I bet a lot didn't get much if any change out of $30 - $40K and didn't think anything of it. Hey if it floated their boat well good on them and go for it.

What's the connection I hear you saying probably nothing it's just another example of how some of us guys spend our money for what ever it is that turns us on at the time

Wobbly


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## Ducatiboy stu

Are you trying to say that many AG brewers dont know the value of quality ingreadients and how to use them. Many brewers use exactly the same malts,hops & yeasts and technique as Bachus. 

Your analogy of brewers waving a wand and muttering wierd sayings is not doing you any favours. Simply because its bullshit.

The WW maybe the next step, and the principal is something that has a lot of merit due to the fact it is a proven method in commercial production. And I have no doubt it is prob going to be the next step in our passion for brewing great beers.

Dont forget that there are a lot of brewers out there that are highly qualified in areas if microbiology,chemical engineering, food science,etc.


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## manticle

I haven't been one of the naysayers wobbly but a lot of your rant didn't make a lot of sense. Drawing a very long bow with the wedding comparison for a start. 

Still interested in the answer to my question about future designs incorporating wort production if you can get around to it.

Simple answer to the cost criticisms is based on 3 things.

1. Do I want it?
2. Can I afford it?
3. Is it worth it?

If your answer (not anyone else's answer) is yes then great. Someone else might answer no - that doesn't need to trouble you though.


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## Beerisyummy

Mr. No-Tip said:


> I tend to agree, but it doesn't help... I don't think Steve Jobs got someone else to post in "macs suck" calling the windows fans stupid.


 I normally hate these sort of analogies about cars and computers, but this one really does suit this situation.

The Apple marketing department have succeeded in getting their customers to do this dirty work for them. They love telling you how much better their purchase is, even though most of them don't know what makes it better. Oh, I forgot. They do look flash.

Without any ill feelings towards the OP, his comments are in much the same vain.



wobbly said:


> I have resisted the urge to respond in kind to the negative posts and rather post a few more of what I see as positives of this system.....
> 
> The Williams Warn, again in my view, is the next step along the continuum of excellence as it replaces a whole range of DIY systems that have been developed by guys trying to replicate/emulate what the quality craft breweries achieve. Go into any of the better craft breweries and you will not see pots of boiling wort attended by "old hags" mumbling secret spells or multitudes of devices trying to replicate conical fermenters, pressure fermentation, natural carbonation and maturation of their beers.
> 
> The guy from SA I referenced above who also owns a WW stared out with a 3V Bilchman set up, then went BIAB, and finally to a Braumeister and now compliments that with a WW and comments that he has never made better beer as easily. He lives near McLaren Vale and is very friendly with the owner of the local medium sized Craft Brewery and the owner comments that the BM/WW set up makes better beer than he does at the craft brewery and I guess to some extent there is a bit of pissing in the pocket going on as well
> 
> Making better beer would have a fair bit to do with the quality of inputs as well as a controlled and repeatable process and if no expense is your criteria and you have unlimited resources at your disposal then you will make better beer as indicated by this quote by the owner of Bacchus Brewery taken from an interview published in a recent James Squires e-mail mail out.
> 
> Much has been said about the cost of these units and individuals have used their resourcefulness to replicate the Braumeister but along the way there have been quite a number of issues with putting together the electronics, sealing the malt pipe and pump selection to mention a few. Not that I want to take anything away from these guys efforts but from where I sit it seems to be as much about the DIY challenge as it is about trying to produce better beer.
> 
> With all the references to the high cost of these units (Braumeisters and WilliamsWarn) and comments like "I would never purchase one in a fit at those costs" I often wonder how much they invested in the "significant other half" when she said "put a ring on it" both for the ring and the subsequent one day event that followed. I bet a lot didn't get much if any change out of $30 - $40K and didn't think anything of it. Hey if it floated their boat well good on them and go for it.
> 
> What's the connection I hear you saying probably nothing it's just another example of how some of us guys spend our money for what ever it is that turns us on at the time
> 
> Wobbly


Hey Wobbly,

I think it's great you decided to buy one of these things and give it a go.
I'm sure it must be frustrating to have a multitude of people taking the piss out of your new toy and it's possible some of the posts have been "vanished" by the mods.

Please just stop with what is looking more and more like an infomercial. You've owned it for like five minutes and your going on about it like it's the trusty old work horse that's been the back bone of your brewery for years.

I for one, would like to hear about the limitations of the system, along with the bling. That's the whole point of a discussion right?

To address a couple of points in your (trimmed) post above:

- Are you familiar with the term " Just like a bought one"? "DIY" is a term that is similar to "homebrew" in that regard. Everything is made by someone and it doesn't say much about the quality of something.

- Not everyone is "trying" to replicate/emulate what the quality craft breweries achieve. Many do this without a WW on a regular and repeatable basis. What's the big deal? This makes you sound like you've only ever brewed rubbish until the WW came along.

- Old hags a plenty. http://www.wychwood.co.uk/#/home//hobgoblin/home  It seems funny that you keep going on about this new toy like it's a magic box, full of mystery.

- The WW uses techniques that are nothing new. Granted, it does come in a neat little package, but that comes at the cost of limitations.

- Did your mate in SA say that he brews better beer in the WW fermenter, or did he just say it was easier? Does this only work if I use the WW in conjunction with a BM?

- A controllable process and unlimited resources (IMO) will not guarantee good beer. I would agree that the WW fermenter is a very useful tool in that regard.

- I'm definitely part of the DIY crowd, so I guess I should defend my current system, over the BM, in a thread about WW fermenters? What's with all the BM talk? My system does the same ,and more, and can change configurations at the drop of a hat, not to mention the ability to upgrade components at will. It doesn't make it better or worse, but for me it suits my brewing.

- I get your point about the comments on cost. It really does depend on what you're comfortable paying. I also believe that cost is a significant factor for many people and that makes it very relevant in this case ( the WW fermenter, not anything to do with the BM). Many very accomplished brewers have commented on the poor "bang for buck" factor with this piece of equipment. Do you disagree with all those criticisms? Surely, you think the price is up there?

Wobbly, I really hope you have a great time fermenting beer in the WW. I'd buy one in a pinch if I could justify the cost , but with this unit I just don't see it.

In any case, before making such a substantial investment in a small appliance, I'd at least need to see it's faults before purchasing. Nothing's perfect after all.



manticle said:


> I haven't been one of the naysayers wobbly but a lot of your rant didn't make a lot of sense. Drawing a very long bow with the wedding comparison for a start.
> 
> Still interested in the answer to my question about future designs incorporating wort production if you can get around to it.
> 
> Simple answer to the cost criticisms is based on 3 things.
> 
> 1. Do I want it?
> 2. Can I afford it?
> 3. Is it worth it?
> 
> If your answer (not anyone else's answer) is yes then great. Someone else might answer no - that doesn't need to trouble you though.


I'd be really interested in knowing if there are any plans for future upgrades as well.

1. Not really sold on it. Would definitely need to run it through it's paces first.
2. I could definitely afford one, but that's not how I make purchasing decisions ( unlike my wife).
3. Considering you can buy a 600l jacketed conical for around the same price, I'd say wait for the price to come down.


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## Camo6

I really don't think you need to justify your purchase with us any further Wobbly. You did your research, you liked what you saw and you seemed content with the expense. Arguing your point is only going to fuel the fire, though it is a discussion board I suppose.

Not quite sure of the relevance of your quote from the owner of Bacchus Brewing. I assume you're aware he's made several posts in this thread already?

In regards to the expense of a wedding, I agree they're not cheap but a necessary evil. And if a WW setup will do the things to me that my wife does, I'll buy one tomorrow!

I guess the only one that's gonna know whether this thing improves the taste of your beer now is you. And at the end of the day that's probably the only opinion that matters.


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## Yob

Repeatability and expensive equipment are not mutually exclusive.. Nor does bling = repeatability necessarily..


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Mod: no posts have 'vanished' - we encourage healthy debate without abuse and nothing has overstepped the mark. You guys are modding yourselves.


Member: I'd like to see that email and wobbly's subsequent responses put side by side with How to Brew by John Palmer - not a 'homebrew dummy'. It seems like he's making generalisations about his preconceived idea of what homebrewers are.

And requesting an email which calls homebrewers dummies on their own forum seems more in the vein of 'trolling' to me.

We have a number of qualified brewers, chemists, engineers and the like who've made excellent systems on here.

We have a number of homebrew 'dummies' that have launched commercial brewing operations. At the same time craft beer consumption is up, whilst overall beer consumption is down.

And a braumeister is cheaper, way cheaper than this unit, and without the attitude problem of it's creator for all to see.


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## Elz

I did my research and waited for almost a year before the WW was delivered ( gen 2 machine). However I can also see that there is some fanboyism, from both sides, creeping into this 'debate'. I reckon I am fairly leveled headed and defend my purchase from a base of research, feedback from other owners ( albeit mainly from positive comments on face book) and past entries on blogs such as this and by overall weighing the pros and cons. I am also mindful that the WW is only in its second iteration and there will likely be further enhancemts in the future. Also likely is that there will be competion from other developers/entrepreneurs in the future, and hopefully even better devises will be made available? Evolution for the benefit of home brewers, in my mind, gotta be a good thing ( for others change is something they may not like as they are happy with the status quo) 


(Fanboyism: The collective outlook and behavior of a group of people concerning a subject (movies, games, hardware, comic book characters, etc.) which when challenged results in an antagonistic, passionate, and unreasoned response. This site provides a good overview: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/

Ps current Belgium pale ale going down a treat.


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## black_labb

I am definitely a hobbyist and enjoy making my own equipment whether it is beer, bike or music related. Over the years I've come to realise that with the right frame of mind and interest in learning you can usually make something that equals if not exceeds commercial offerings as well as being tailored to your own needs. Being someone who likes to learn about things and do something myself means I'm not drawn to the product and I'm not the target market.

Of course many people new to something don't fully understand their own needs or what is important.



There are some very good things about the WWPB but there are a lot of limitations. They assume that pressurised fermentation is uniformly superior. Yes it will subdue esters and make a clean lager but that's not what you want for many types of ales. Then again they seem to dismiss liquid yeast as stupid. Dry yeast is great but there is only a limited range of dry yeasts available and many flavoursome yeasts are only available in liquid. It seems that this product suits lagers and American style ales where yeast character is intentionally muted. There is of course nothing wrong with that but the product is claimed to do everything much better than anything "dumb homebrewers" are able to do. I'd love to see the designer acknowledge the limitations and emphasise the ease of use and time saving features of it. All grain brewing and careful control of fermentation is a slow and laborious process. I and most here love it but you can't do it if you lack the time. Being able to brew quality beer quicker and with less labour is the clear advantage of this system but it seems they are trying to trick people into believing it is better in every other way as well.


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## wobbly

For those interested I have attached my observations/experiences to date with my WW

Any way as I said these are my views for what they are worth and I have endeavoured to point out the few minor negatives I have found with the machine non of which I might add in any way detract from the finished beer product. It was just a bit like getting a flat tyre on your new car as you drove it out of the sales show room!!!

I have contacted WW and told them about these few small issues so I guess it is up to them if they take them on board or not

I have had to attach it as a word document as the system won't allow me to "cut and paste" anything from my files into this program. Obviously I am doing something fundamentally and most likely very basically wrong so any thoughts/advise on where I might be going wrong would be appreciated

Cheers

Wobbly 

View attachment For those interested here are my first impressions of my WW.docx


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## manticle

Are you using IE?
I believe there is an issue with cut/paste in recent versions of it.


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## wobbly

Yes I use IE so any clues on what to do to resolve the matter

Cheers

w3


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## SnakeDoctor

picobrew appears to be significantly better thought out / designed to me [I know they aren't the same product, but there is overlap] :

http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/2/4795602/picobrew-zymatic-is-the-nespresso-of-beer-brewing


----------



## Camo6

Seems like the problems you mention aren't too problematic Wobbly. Did you find the improvement in the taste you were after? (Not trying to be smart)


----------



## manticle

wobbly said:



> Yes I use IE so any clues on what to do to resolve the matter Cheers w3


I'm not great with that stuff but there was a thread somewhere. Will see if I can find it. I know switching browsers is one option - doesn't happen with chrome for example.


----------



## Bridges

wobbly said:


> Yes I use IE so any clues on what to do to resolve the matter
> 
> Cheers
> 
> w3


I had heaps of issues with IE not able to paste or put in linky's. Google chrome, now all good.


----------



## Beerisyummy

> Yes I use IE so any clues on what to do to resolve the matter
> 
> Cheers
> 
> w3


Just go into the top left corner of the reply box and toggle the little light switch thingy. Perfect fix every time. If you would like to spend hours setting up a new browser "just the way you like it" , go ahead.
The other browsers do work better with the occasional random site IME.

Love your post on the WW under normal usage mate. Top drawer.

Since first reading your post on this equipment, I've tried similar things and can see a whole lot more information being needed beyond the marketing spiel.
Keep up the experiments with the equipment, and the reports of how it goes. I've been the guinea pig on plenty of things over the years, but nothing this costly.

PS. Fans and other things can be sorted with a bit of DIY. Under warranty, I wouldn't touch anything.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Excellent, simple summary.

You mentioned you went 'grain to brain' - I was of the impression that you were using the predetermined extract kits that come with (or are purchase-able for) the machine. I noted them at Harvey Norman.

Otherwise, appears to be a good summary. Hope they're giving you a discount on the machine, given your feedback is consumer based things that will clearly improve the design.


----------



## Parks

It's interesting that it took 4 days for nottingham to get to terminal gravity at that temperature. When I have used it at anything 19+ it's mostly done in the first 36 hours. That's beers up to 1060.


----------



## manticle

LRG - wobbly is making ag wort in a braumeister.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Manticle - really? I didn't pick that up from the photos and the file name being "*For those interested here are my first impressions of my WW.docx* " - have I missed something here?

Been a bit busy, unwell and the like, I might be being slow :blink: :unsure:


----------



## manticle

Earlier in the thread it is discussed.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Excellent - read properly. Excuse that!

It's making me look at kegging systems again.


----------



## Beerisyummy

> It's interesting that it took 4 days for nottingham to get to terminal gravity at that temperature. When I have used it at anything 19+ it's mostly done in the first 36 hours. That's beers up to 1060.


Going off what I've been reading lately, the chart shows that the pressure was up to 22psi early on the second day. I'm guessing the graph isn't that accurate in regards to this, but it would still cause the yeast to slow down a fair bit.
That could easily explain why the Nottingham yeast took a little longer.

Wobbly, could you try running the pressure in the 5-10psi range for the first 3-4 days? I'd be really interested to see if that would speed things up, while giving you the cleaner results pressure fermenting is famous for.

There is a great thread on one of the US sites about pressure fermenting in sankey (CUB) kegs, which might yield some useful info. If you've got the time I think it might help you with the WW.
Alas, most of the info is written by dumb homebrewers.


----------



## wobbly

Happy to "consider", within reason, various options that people would like to see the impacts/effects of on the finished product

I don't do "big beers, hops above about 45IBU,sours or lambics" so any iteration of those will be non starters

The WW has about 35% head space above the 23 lt fill mark so some of the more aggressive yeasts such as Wy 3638 may be able to be accommodated to see what effects pressure has on the run away trend of this yeast.

Post what you would like to see tried and the format you would like the results in and I will see if/how I can combine that with future brews

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Beerisyummy said:


> Alas, most of the info is written by dumb homebrewers.


That really is a pathetic attitude. Does owning a WW all of a sudden make you a smart brewer...


----------



## Parks

Ducatiboy stu said:


> That really is a pathetic attitude. Does owning a WW all of a sudden make you a smart brewer...


That is the attitude of the guy that _makes_ the WW.


----------



## Camo6

Ducatiboy stu said:


> That really is a pathetic attitude. Does owning a WW all of a sudden make you a smart brewer...


Check out WW's letter to Wobbly earlier in the thread for context, Stu. Just a bit of tongue in cheek is all.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

One would hope so.


----------



## Beerisyummy

Jesus Stu! Nobody wants to hurt you mate.

I thought you'd have read the letter by Ian Warn. If not you need to go back and have a read ,just for a laugh.

For the record. I DO NOT OWN A WWPB.
I'm using a keg with a DIY spunding valve and a fridge to do the exact same thing. The only differences are my lack of WW magic clarifier and the ability to watch the yeast collect.

I really like the equipment side of the WWPB.


----------



## MastersBrewery

So wobbly, was the taste profile where you wanted to be, or heading in that direction? After all most of us do this hobby for one reason, and that is to make better beers than we could normally buy at the local.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Beerisyummy said:


> Jesus Stu! Nobody wants to hurt you mate.
> 
> I thought you'd have read the letter by Ian Warn. If not you need to go back and have a read ,just for a laugh.
> .


I did, and was appalled by his comments.


----------



## Beerisyummy

wobbly said:


> In view of some of the negative comments, like it being an expensive kit machine etc., posted by some at the start of this topic (I acknowledge that there has been a number of posters that have added constructive comments also) I thought it would be beneficial to post some feed back from the system designer who I have been corresponding with
> 
> At the outset it is worthwhile restating Ian Williams qualifications and experience that in my view make him eminently qualified to make a lot of the points he does.
> 
> 
> Formal Degree in Food Technology
> Master Brewer from the Institute of Brewers London
> Brewing Consultant at Danbrew
> Brewing Consultant at Alfred Jorgensen Laboratory
> Brew Master at Hainan Asia Pacific Breweries
> Brew Master at Tiger Brewery Singapore
> Brew Master at DB Breweries
> I brought this thread and comment to Ian's attention and the following is his response.
> 
> _Okay so I read some of the comments ....all wrong and that's why I stay away from these guys....they're really dumb and don't understand beer making like a brew master_
> _Examples_
> 
> _The Cost. They have no understanding of what it costs to build something like this. It's expensive only because it's new. laptops came out at AU$25,000 in the 80's. The first flat screen was AU$30,000. That's just how it is until you're making 1000's per day. We've sold 370 of these units to 370 happy customers. The stainless cost us almost $1000 and that's first part of 100 parts_
> _The void does exist. 32% of New Zealand men are ex-home brewers. 0.3% do it. The fail rate is huge because people don't know how to brew. To solve this is what we have done but it can't be done for $500. These guys are rare because they stuck at it. But for every 1 of them there are 100 who quit_
> _You could set it all up your self but that's still DIY. Did you build your own oven, vacuum cleaner, fridge, espresso coffee machine, bread maker. We're an appliance as well as the worlds smallest brewery (from fermentation onwards). And we need to be doing it properly. And these guys have been brewing for years and got over the hump of making bad beers. Most men can't be bothered doing that. They want easy and properly. So I found what the reason were for 32% of all Kiwis quitting the hobby and solved it all at once_
> _The ageing is a myth thing I mean that you don't have to age beer to make it good. The myth is that it needs to stand for two months in a bottle. That's untrue. 95% of the worlds beers are not aged for long periods before bottling and sold. It's a simple fact. DB here makes beer sold to 1.5 million people each week and its made in 6 days. A dark beer like that guys Irish Red will be ok after 18 months as the stale flavours may be hidden but that doesn't mean it wasn't ok a week after it was bottled if he brewed it properly. His beer will still have staling aldehydes that have increased over time and if he thinks that's fine then great. Enjoy_
> _2 - 3 months will not improve lawn mower beer. Beer is best fresh. The lawn mower beer will have increases in trans-2-nonenal, benzaldehde, 2 acetyl furan, all sorts of aldehydes. What these guys never mention is what about it is improved? They'll say "young beer flavours" and "it needs to mellow" or "soften the bitterness" such but never exactly what it is and if it was over the taste threshold for that chemical when bottled and whether they've measured it in a lab before and after 3 months and now its lower than the taste threshold and drinkable. If you're going to make a fresh brew that needs off-flavour aged out of it you're doing something wrong. That myth gets told over and over again_
> _Liquid yeast is really weak. Brewers use yeast only up to 5 days max storage. That's because intracellular glycogen reserves get eaten by the yeast and so the lag phase in the next fermentation becomes really long and fermentation fails. A vial or smack pack that is 6 months old has yeast that is not really vital. Maybe viable (live) but not vital (full of energy) and so it needs the aeration of a starter to get the remaining living cells to breed and make new fresh cells full of sterols and fatty acids for cell growth during the main fermentation_
> _You can use your own wort in this. Its fermentation onwards. All grainers buy this._
> _Yes aging is good for special beers like old ales and lambics. But that's 0.1% of the world beer market so I was talking about the above for "normal" beers_
> _Commercial beers have a 450 million dollar turn over. To criticise them as something that is of no value is to just show a mind that works poorly. VB, Heineken, Budweiser, Corona are loved by millions of people and are valid beer styles. To knock one beer style over another is stupid. All beer is great. And to say 6 billion people have something wrong with their taste buds makes no sense. They are billion dollar brands because they are quality products. Fact. If you prefer an IPA ok, doesn't mean VB tastes like acetic acid._
> _A guy made his 3rd batch of beer in one of our breweries and beat 45 of the worlds biggest breweries in a beer comp. He was the only home brewer to have ever done that in the history of brewing. The only other guy to have done that did it this year with one of our Gen2 machines. Both used our extract. The breweries they were up against were all grain brew houses worth millions. In that moment we showed that the idea that modern homebrew extracts is not as good as all grain brews is another myth told by the arrogant all grain home brewers in order to make themselves feel better about themselves. If there is a problem with our extract, the 20 beer judges in a blind beer tasting comp would have marked these guys beer down. Fact. A home brewers all grain set up will not be as good as a modern Krones or Briggs Brew house. So we beat the highest standard of all grain worts with extracts. What it shows is the evaporation process to make extract is of no consequence. As is the evaporation process during malting, hops drying and wort boiling. Our extract is also made from all grain in a brew house. So it's also all grain. the only difference is evaporation and rehydration. water molecules moving out and back in. No big deal_
> _Feel free to post this if you want. You will fire them up no end. Would be fun to see the reactions. But don't worry about it. They are just internet trolls. Not my market. My market are smarter men than these guys. I look forward to you making great wort in the BM and great beer with our unit. You can't go wrong_
> _Cheers_
> _Ian_
> 
> Food for thought
> 
> Wobbly


Just thought I'd bring up the relevant post. Saves people from reading the first 187 posts.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

The same people are still going to be appalled by his arogance. Nothing has changed there.


----------



## Beerisyummy

> Happy to "consider", within reason, various options that people would like to see the impacts/effects of on the finished product
> 
> I don't do "big beers, hops above about 45IBU,sours or lambics" so any iteration of those will be non starters
> 
> The WW has about 35% head space above the 23 lt fill mark so some of the more aggressive yeasts such as Wy 3638 may be able to be accommodated to see what effects pressure has on the run away trend of this yeast.
> 
> Post what you would like to see tried and the format you would like the results in and I will see if/how I can combine that with future brews
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly


From all of my reading, I'm lead to believe that the added pressure during fermentation will subdue foaming in the FV. Too early to tell in my own experiment.

I'd like you to do a few basic lagers with your rig. Same BM routine each time. Then you play with the temps and pressures to see what happens.


----------



## Mr. No-Tip

Beerisyummy said:


> From all of my reading, I'm lead to believe that the added pressure during fermentation will subdue foaming in the FV. Too early to tell in my own experiment.


I think I can unscientifically substantiate that. From a post I made to an ongoing thread on the Canberra Brewers forum:



> I pitch a starter of 'cry havoc' yeast into 27l of wort at 17 degrees a bit before new years. After 24 hours the krausen was nearly at the top, so I switched to a blow off tube. I had the tube going into a bung in a glass sherry bottle. The krausen then backed off, but i left the blow off in place.
> 
> When I've been taking gravity readings, the beer has been carbonated, but it was only this morning I realised that I'd actually been brewing pressurised. I needed the blowoff for another beer today, so I released it and the fermenter let out a heap of gas and the replacement airlock went crazy.
> 
> Obviously the system wasn't entirely sealed, or else the glass would have smashed or the tap/blowoff would have burst, but it was a pretty good seal.
> 
> From what I've been reading, it actually is OK to ferment under pressure - it's how conicals work isn't it? You can ferment warmer, therefore quicker, without ester production and you can save the C02 (Unfortunately I am bottling some of the batch, so I can't utilise the built up C02). Discussion: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/66163 ... -pressure/
> 
> The one thing that stuck me as odd was the way the krausen, seemingly set to burst, backed off once under pressure. I wonder if the pressure kept the krausen in check. Thoughts?


----------



## professional_drunk

I thought the WW looked pretty cool. Like the nespresso of beer. If they bring the price down and I get to taste a sample of something made out of this, I could recommend this to a few people since I occasionally get asked about how to go about brewing. In saying that, if Ian is just going to call us trolls and get us offside, I might just tell people to buy a kegerator and buy commercial 50ltr kegs instead.


----------



## wobbly

> I'd like you to do a few basic lagers with your rig. Same BM routine each time. Then you play with the temps and pressures to see what happens.


Not sure that other than documenting a few metrics of the fermentation phase such as "how long to reach terminal gravity etc" that much else will be achieved because of the following.

What would be used as the base/control brew
Just changing temperature and pressure at say 3 different points would require 15 brews and the way and rate I consume beer that would take over 12 months to complete
Without doing some sort of laboratory analysis of the beer at a fixed number of days after reaching terminal gravity and or clarification how would you compare the characteristics between each brew
Tasting samples and recording perceived differences 12 months apart might be a bit subjective other than something like "not sure I like this brew"
Not sure that making 15 brews in the BM say 15 months apart will not have some impact on the results due to different malt batches and grain age etc.
Have a read of the following paper and see if that gives you the data you are after. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1992.tb01137.x/pdf

Not trying to poor cold water on your request I just think it is much more complex than "doing a couple of brews" if it is to provide any meaningful/useful results

Cheers

Wobbly

Oh Yeh your post on how to fix the "quote thing" worked for me today Thanks


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

professional_drunk said:


> I thought the WW looked pretty cool. Like the nespresso of beer. If they bring the price down and I get to taste a sample of something made out of this, I could recommend this to a few people since I occasionally get asked about how to go about brewing. In saying that, if Ian is just going to call us trolls and get us offside, I might just tell people to buy a kegerator and buy commercial 50ltr kegs instead.


Or a braumeister and kegerators


----------



## Beerisyummy

Hey Wobbly,

I prefer to have cold beer poured over my ideas. None of this water nonsense mate!
Thanks for the link. I'll have a read of it when I get the time.

I get your point about a lack of meaningful results. The results would be anecdotal at best although, I'm sure a few different brews would give you a feel for the variation in results.
Granted, there are many other variables that come into play, and recognising the difference in yeast character can be tricky.

In the meantime, I'm already fully underway with my own tests using similar methods to the WW, less the yeast dump/clarifier. In place of that, I just cold crash and transfer/filter into a post mix keg.
The last batch was tested out on the weekend, and it was near the end of the keg before people would believe I made it. The wheat beer helped convince them I had made them myself. 10 days to produce that lager.

Anyway, keep us all posted on how things go over time Wobbly.

PS. No tip, The pressure definitely helps with krausen. I'll need to test it myself with a 70% wheaty to find out how much exactly.


----------



## pk.sax

That Iam wanker's comments just show what he's aiming at.

Cashed up nimwits that can't handle figuring it out. If he can't stand admitting VB etc are poor excuses for wanting to even bother with trying to make beer then the OP must really evaluate why the heck he's trying to sing this one up. If you really think fermentation is so difficult that you need this fancy gizmo then why would you bother brewing in the first place!

I'd like to apologise for posting in here again, but the response of the Iam wanker is really the anti-thesis of why brewers brew and enjoy good beer. Get the poor bastard some gum boots!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Can only agree PF....can only agree.


----------



## wobbly

Well I have completed my 4th 7 day brew/ferment and it's drinking very very nicely and in answer to your question in post 248 Brewmaster the beer taste and clarity is the best I've had from any of the 50plus previous brews and I acknowledge that doesn't necessarily mean that those previous 50 were good or great beers

Some one posted on another topic on this site that there are two important fundamentals to producing quality beer - consistent good wort production and controlled fermentation

The Braumeister has improved and simplified consistent wort production for a lot of this sites members and to date my experience with the WW is that it produces carbonated, clear and ester/fusel alcohol taste free beer ready for consumption in 6 to 7 days for an ale. I'm yet to attempt a lager/pilsner

The one issue I am yet to resolve in using the WW is to reduce the amount of break material I am carrying over from the BM into the WW as I have found that the sediment bottle doesn't contain it and it has been necessary to empty the sediment bottle 3 and some times 4 times a ferment. I use a hop sock and Brewbrite in the boil and attempt to whirlpool with little success. I am now considering purchasing a Blichmann "Hop Rocket" to both add additional flavour as well as act as a filter between the BM and WW. I have looked at the tank water filter units in the pumping section at Bunnings and Masters and whilst a lot cheaper at $20 they are only rated to 35C and it states on the packaging "not for potable water use"

It's a pity that most/all of the negative comments on this and other forums about the WW are being made by individuals that appear to have had no personal experience with either using the system or tasting the final product and therefore those comments are considered purely subjective and not based on any actual experience

Roger Millie an experienced AG conical brewer/kegger who has often posted on this site has recently had the opportunity to ferment one of his beers in a demonstration WW in Auckland and made the following comment in an e-mail to me after observing the process and tasting the final product.

_Will definitely purchase one of these - I think the reductive fermenting is the best aspect - totally sold._

Here's hoping a few more will see the benefits of this machine and make the transition to a different (improved?) style of fermenting

For me the BM and the WW take out a whole lot of variables (that I'm not interested in) in making beer and allow me to concentrate on getting the grain bill and hop schedule right for the style of beer I want to make and enjoy drinking

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## zappa

Sounds like you've justified your purchase, but to be honest, your latest post sounds more like a marketing spiel. In the interest of full disclosure (and I apologise in advance if you find this offensive), have you been offered any financial gain from WW for marketing?


----------



## Yob

so I guess, if you already have consistency in your brewery, many of the selling points you advocate are mute points?

I use a 4V HERMS rig and consistency isnt an issue, nor, it must be said, is break material making it past my cheap arse kettle.. Oh, and also, my rig is set up for 75 to 100l.. so that also would have to be a large factor..

I really do not understand why you feel the need to *prove the point* (reads hard sell for some other joker) here, it works for you, great, not everyone has

a. the sort of *splash* you need for these setups
b. the *desire *for those sorts of setups.
c. the* need *for those sorts of setups
d. the *space* for those sorts of setups

to be frank, Splash, desire, need and space are the 4 big drivers for what system people end up with.. to a large degree.

Well done on showcasing this product but FFS, there is no need to do a hard sell on it.


----------



## Ross

Hi Wobbly,

You boast the system is producing you ester free ales. Esters are a very important part of ales, so not sure why you see this as a plus. But hey, if it's what you want & that's what you're getting, then great 


Cheers Ross


----------



## TheWiggman

This thread has been a pretty entertaining read. I think everything's been said already, but I think Ian's got a point with his comments in general which don't really relate to the types on this form. Though the website reads like an infomercial and there is definitely some BS on there. 
His product has a specific market, and I don't think the home brew enthusiast is his market. If someone's going to fork out a heap of cash then they want it to work. Dry yeast is easiest and repeatable. Kit brews are hard to get wrong, especially with this system. The extra features (sediment reducer, temp control etc.) all aid to improve beer over your standard Coopers style kit. For someone who is new to brewing and loves the sound of quick, repeatable beer on tap out a flashy-looking stainless unit with almost none of the cleanup or bottling issues most new brewers face, it's a winner. For the blokes on the web site who bought it for their company to park in the corner and enjoy every Friday, it's perfect. 

For someone who wants to learn the craft, make all the mistakes, enjoy the whole customisation and satisfaction that comes along with building a setup and calling it "yours", this system doesn't apply. Especially with a price tag like it has. 

I really don't understand the comments about lagering not being necessary and all that, as I think quite a few centuries of practice and clear evidence in everyone's own brewing experience suggests otherwise. Maybe the major breweries do turn around a lager in 10 days, I don't know, but people buying this system most likely drink that beer and if the WW has a kit to replicate them in 10 days then both salesman and customer is happy. Ian rightly states that some styles don't work in it and again, he's not trying to sell it to those people. 

Personally I'd love to have this system. Complete fermentation and conditioning control, the sediment reducer is a cracker of a concept, no transferring is required and it looks snappy. But wouldn't be any good if I was trying a lambic, only allows one beer on the tap at a time, and I'd still want all my other gear (beer fridge, kegs etc.) and hence wouldn't be the be all and end all system it's purported to be on the website. And there's no way I could ever justify spending ~$8k on it. 
It's aimed at a specific customer, and most of us on this forum aren't it.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

When Ian stated that basically we are uneducated trolls, that sealed the deal for a lot of brewrrs.


----------



## wobbly

_"Esters are a very important part of ales,"_

No Argument - My comment is in relation to those that are considered "Off Flavours" due to high temperature fermentation as with this system/process you just don't get them!!!

_"have you been offered any financial gain from WW for marketing?"_

No I'm not getting any kick backs nor have I asked for or expect any.

_"why you feel the need to prove the point (reads hard sell for some other joker) here,"_

Not trying to and neither do I have a "point to prove" just commenting on what I see as an excellent product just as many posters have done following their purchase of a Blichmann "Hop Rocket" for example

There have been a number of post in this thread where individuals have asked/requested updates based on my experiences so if some of you are finding that off putting then it's your choice to read or ignore the posts/updates

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## Black n Tan

Everyone take a deep breath. I really have found this thread disappointing. I don't normally like getting involved in this sort of stuff, but given the wave of negativity I wanted to post my support to hear more about this technology. I suspect I will be hit on the head for these comments, but am a little sick and tried of seeing Wobbly being hit for his comments. The guy from WW may be arrogant, he may be also be wrong with some of his comments, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let's try to be objective about what this technology may have to offer: faster ferments, may reduce fermentation by-products which is desirable for some styles and has a number of innovative design features. It also has limitations that we should freely discuss. I suspect we will start to see more devices that offer pressurised fermentation and some of the other features of the WW, at more competitive prices in the future, and with more time people may become more accepting of the technology. There was a comment earlier about fanboyish and I think that is exactly what is happening here. Some people are attacking the technology because they don't have one, can't afford one, because they don't like the bloke that made it or because some of his comments were incorrect. I don't find that helpful or valuable to the discussion. This technology is not for everyone, nor probably for most people for a number of reasons, but we should be encouraging owners to speak freely about their experiences. Wobbly may appear to be over selling the technology, but that is hardly surprising considering the wave of negativity every time he speaks. It is human nature to justify our purchase/decisions and I am sure most of us would defend some of our purchases/decisions similarly. He is not telling you must have one or that what you are doing now is inferior. If I was him I wouldn't post again on the matter, and I think that would be a disservice to us all. I for one want to hear here about his experiences with the WW and his perceived benefits. I won't be buying one and have no affiliation with WW, but the idea of pressurised fermentation intrigues me especially for lagers and if I was to make a conical fermenter I would think about incorporating some of the features of the WW.

Wobbly I would love to have a taste of a lager made on this system. I think it would be really worthwhile to do a split a lager batch, and ferment half in the WW and the other half as normal, and then have a blinded taste test. Keep up the posts. I appreciate them.


----------



## Yob

wobbly said:


> Here's hoping a few more will see the benefits of this machine and make the transition to a different (improved?) style of fermenting





wobbly said:


> _"why you feel the need to prove the point (reads hard sell for some other joker) here,"_
> 
> Not trying to and neither do I have a "point to prove" just commenting on what I see as an excellent product just as many posters have done following their purchase of a Blichmann "Hop Rocket" for example


Well it sure does read like you _*are*_ trying to get people to swing that way..

Happy for you if it floats your boat, my ship sails in a different direction. 3 taps worth of different direction in fact :lol:


----------



## MastersBrewery

I think mostly people have been put off by the BS from the seller, as well as the exorbitant price. Pressure conicals are slowly becoming more available and so is the technology to control all the factors controlled with this system. As these become more readily available the WW will have to nearly halve it's current pricing to remain in the market. None of the hardware used is either ground breaking or proprietary, software will really come down to working out what profiles to use. BrewPi already has a thread on pressure control, and gravity sensing is on the hit list.

So to wobbly : cool stuff I just gotta wait for the cheaper version.

MB


----------



## Parks

Personally I think some of you guys need to chill the **** out.

We have the unique opportunity to get some more evidence (be it anecdotal) on the effects of pressure on fermentation.

Some of us asked him to report back on how he felt the system was working. It may have sounded like an infomercial a little but hey...

I would love to hear more about your experiences Wobbly. Even more so, do some experiments with split batches fermented separately.

Wobbly, your "No esters" statement smacked a little of a sales pitch - I would like to know if you felt it had no esters or it simply lacked the yeast character normally produced in alternative fermentations. As Ross mentioned you actually need esters in ales, it's part of their character.


----------



## Beerisyummy

Ducatiboy stu said:


> When Ian stated that basically we are uneducated trolls, that sealed the deal for a lot of brewrrs.


I can't imagine where "trolling" comes into the equation.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Then we can copy his design and get the chinese to knock out a cheap version....


----------



## Parks

Good on you Wobbly for keeping up with this thread. 

I know a lot of other guys would have taken their bat and sexy brew bling and gone home with some of the comments here.


----------



## wobbly

Thanks for the encouragement Parks.

I am signing off on this thread as I think it has run its race

For those genuinely interested in the design and operation rather than just wanting to bag the machine I will start a new thread under Gear and Equipment titled 

"Williamswarn Brewery Operation and Explanation"

For those that either have a WW machine or are considering a purchase or even those pressure fermenting in a corny are I encourage you to join in the conversation and contribute to the over all knowledge of this method of brewing

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## roger mellie

Wobbly

Cheers for this thread - and subsequent offline discussions we had about the WW and other stuff. I swear allegiance to the flag - I brought a WW on the weekend - not done my first brew yet as I needed some JG fittings to plumb it in to my brewery.

I have read this thread and seriously a lot of what has been said is the reason I lurk here more than contribute - and I admire your resolve in keeping to the facts as you see them.

Just to add some perspective - my own 2c - Ian Williams has forgotten more about brewing that most of us will know. He is also very free with his information and let me brew a fresh wort kit I did in my BM20 in one of his showroom machines. I found him completely NOT arrogant - just a brewer from the megaswill side of the tracks who has tried to make some money by making the process of making craft beer at home as simple and hassle free as he could - and I think he has absolutely nailed it. The fact that he made some comments about liquid yeast and various other stuff is his opinion - everyone is entitled to theirs. He maintains that liquid yeast is viable for 5 days - doesn't mean I won't use it - I have never had a problem with it and I know it will work in his machine. I guess the standpoint he is defending is that claims he makes about the timeframe - which is also something I don't care about - I also don't agree with his temperature profiles (yet) - the Amber Ale I made with S-04 was fermented at 23 DegC - was finished (1.048 --> 1.007) in < 2 days including 8 hours latency for the yeast to start. Of course its going to be slower if you bring that back down to (normal) 18 degC. Will it affect the flavour profile ?? - I have a whole lot of experimenting to do to find out.

The fact that he has designed his system around the relative simplicity of a K&K method is secondary to the whole argument I believe - the actual 'system' he has designed is completely flexible and probably for all but 10% of 'out there' beers (Lambics, Ultra High Gravity Beers etc...) it is an excellent way of fermenting. I won't be attempting a RIS for example.

I firmly believe that there is no better way to make a beer than to exclude Oxygen post pitching. I believe that the WW does this (and I believe that for a shitload less money you could fashion something very similar and I probably would have if I had the time - I don't). 

I will happily contribute to the new thread.

Cheers

RM

WW #00358


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## dicko

Guys, I have moved the appropriate posts from this topic to the new topic below.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78448-williamswarn-brewery-operation-and-explanation/

And Welcome Back to the forum Roger


----------



## mooncat

I don't want get into the discussion about the merits of the WilliamsWarn as I have one and it's perfect for my needs. Having made some, in my view, excellent beers I am looking at tweaks. I have dry hopped at the beginning of ferment and used the sediment bottle to dry hop in a muslin bag after clarification. I would be interested in opinions as to the merits or otherwise of making a hop tea in a sterilised cafetiere at 80 degrees, putting that into the sediment bottle and topping with foam to limit oxygen into the brew. This may be a question that only makes sense to williamswarn users but I'm happy to listen to others views. However as a gentle soul who wouldn't think of criticising others approaches to this wonderful creative pastime I would welcome thoughts and constructive criticism


----------



## Dan Pratt

Hi Mooncat,

I have learnt that when dry hopping at the beginning of ferment the results had not been favourable, this is with a std fermentation vessel.

Im interested to know how the dry hopping at the beginning of ferment turned out, does the Co2 pressure during this time aid in creating a better hops aroma?

Also curios why the post fermentation hops would be added to the sediment botttle, how do the hops actually get through the beer if they are at the base of the vessel already?


----------



## Grainer

IF YOU DIDNT MAKE YOUR RIG IT AINT WORTH IT !!!.. there is more satisfaction out of brewing from a beat up old $20 pot and a bag.. and nailing that brew LOL


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Not for me. But we all brew for different reasons.

I see that even if the cost were significantly lower, the advantages (for me) are outweighed by the disadvantages.

But for me, the advantages of K&K brewing are outweighed the disadvantages of that method. But for others, simplicity, ease of use and less time are their aim. Whereas AGers often care more about the process behind the scenes. It's a personality and cost-benefit thing.

I'm beating myself up about spending less than a grand on a basic kegging set - yet this machine is several times that amount for half the functionality of my (currently mythical) kegging set plus the cost of my basic ghetto AG brewery. For me, that doesn't demonstrate value for money. Having said that, I'd rather spend that money on plane tickets overseas for the family - yet someone else would see that as throwing money away with nothing tangible to show for it. (not that I have that money at any rate, just for the example's sake).

To each their own, and brew and let brew (to play with Sir Paul McCartney's song a bit).


----------



## angus_grant

if you have a rig which makes beer, then it is worth it.

If people who have bought the WW brewery see the value and it suits their brewing style and personal approach to brewing, and they have the cash then congrats to them.
Other people want to bang out beer on $20 ghetto systems. Congrats to them.
Other people want to cobble together a ghetto Braumeister system, congrats to them (when they eventually get something working )

I've never used a 3V system so feel completely unqualified to pass any judgement/comment on those systems.
I've never used a WW system so feel completely unqualified to pass any judgement/comment on those systems.
etc, etc, etc...


----------



## Jimbo12A

Hi Guys,
I own a Williamswarn unit, I was the first in Australia to use the upgraded unit, with heaps of refinements, mostly hidden. I must confess I had lea-way over the rest of the users of the Williamswarn unit. I'll explain this all shortly. I do not have any afiliation with the makers of the unit.

I've been a brewer sinse Gough Witllam legalised home brewing in the early 1970's. That's almost a lifetime.
If it wasnt for this legislation from a confirmed beer drinker, who loved beer, you wouldn't be brewing today. It would still be illegal. Gough loved beer, and plenty of it, made Bob Hawke look like an amateaur.

You don't realize how hard it was to make a 1/2 decent ale in those days.
Bakers yeast couldn't quite cut it. No mattter how hard we tried to change it.
We used to culture a 1/2 bottle of Cooper's ale to get enough yeast to make a starter. Sometime times this didn't work. We got sick drinking the beer.

In 1998, I decided enough was enough, I'm too old to work, I'm too old to work in the industry, but surely I can make a decent beer..Something better than foaming drain cleaner. I enrolled in the Tafe course at Regency, the Cordon Bleue training centre of food and wines.
I will admit, it cost heaps, but the knowlege is beyond question. If you guys really want to learn how to make beer with out exception, enroll and be enlightened.

The end result was that I achieved the title of master brewer, certifications to prove this, but due to my age 75 plus, I couldn't work in the industry. I can tell you, with the Williamswarn, with my knowlege, I can make one hell of a beer. I know.

My beers have been submitted in various shows, with great results. The Kit and Kilo machine shines. This machine is not a wank from some Kiwi that somehow knew how to make beer. He was the world youngest Master Brewer on the world stage. He is my God of Brewing.

You guys think this machine is a wank, well, so far, one gold medal, on his third brew, never brewed before, and a siver medal,a backyard brewer, both from kit and kilo, in the Asian beer Festival. They were competing against multimillion dollar brewerys. They killed them! A small 23 litre brewery, at about $7000. Can you believe it.

I brew all grain, No Chill, and I can still win awards for shows, although I don't compete much, as I think I have an unfair advantage, crystal clear beer, drinkable, fully carbonated at seven days, whereas you guys spend months getting there.Nine time times out of ten you can't enter, it's too cloudy and not enough carbonation for the judges.


Beer is like bread, it's meant to be drunk fresh, not two or three months stale.


----------



## pcmfisher

Jimbo12A said:


> Hi Guys,
> I own a Williamswarn unit, I was the first in Australia to use the upgraded unit, with heaps of refinements, mostly hidden. I must confess I had lea-way over the rest of the users of the Williamswarn unit. I'll explain this all shortly. I do not have any afiliation with the makers of the unit.
> 
> I've been a brewer sinse Gough Witllam legalised home brewing in the early 1970's. That's almost a lifetime.
> If it wasnt for this legislation from a confirmed beer drinker, who loved beer, you wouldn't be brewing today. It would still be illegal. Gough loved beer, and plenty of it, made Bob Hawke look like an amateaur.
> 
> You don't realize how hard it was to make a 1/2 decent ale in those days.
> Bakers yeast couldn't quite cut it. No mattter how hard we tried to change it.
> We used to culture a 1/2 bottle of Cooper's ale to get enough yeast to make a starter. Sometime times this didn't work. We got sick drinking the beer.
> 
> In 1998, I decided enough was enough, I'm too old to work, I'm too old to work in the industry, but surely I can make a decent beer..Something better than foaming drain cleaner. I enrolled in the Tafe course at Regency, the Cordon Bleue training centre of food and wines.
> I will admit, it cost heaps, but the knowlege is beyond question. If you guys really want to learn how to make beer with out exception, enroll and be enlightened.
> 
> The end result was that I achieved the title of master brewer, certifications to prove this, but due to my age 75 plus, I couldn't work in the industry. I can tell you, with the Williamswarn, with my knowlege, I can make one hell of a beer. I know.
> 
> My beers have been submitted in various shows, with great results. The Kit and Kilo machine shines. This machine is not a wank from some Kiwi that somehow knew how to make beer. He was the world youngest Master Brewer on the world stage. He is my God of Brewing.
> 
> You guys think this machine is a wank, well, so far, one gold medal, on his third brew, never brewed before, and a siver medal,a backyard brewer, both from kit and kilo, in the Asian beer Festival. They were competing against multimillion dollar brewerys. They killed them! A small 23 litre brewery, at about $7000. Can you believe it.
> 
> I brew all grain, No Chill, and I can still win awards for shows, although I don't compete much, as I think I have an unfair advantage, crystal clear beer, drinkable, fully carbonated at seven days, whereas you guys spend months getting there.Nine time times out of ten you can't enter, it's too cloudy and not enough carbonation for the judges.
> 
> 
> Beer is like bread, it's meant to be drunk fresh, not two or three months stale.


So you were 75+ in 1998? 
You will be getting that letter from the Queen soon.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

What was the point of that post Jimbo? The machine _is_ a wank. A shiny, awesome, piece of wank. I would wank all over a stainless steel pressurised temperature controlled FV every day if I had one.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Jimbo12A said:


> We used to culture a 1/2 bottle of Cooper's ale to get enough yeast to make a starter. Sometime times this didn't work. *We got sick drinking the beer.*
> 
> *Beer is like bread, it's meant to be drunk fresh, not two or three months stale.*


Claiming you got 'sick' from beer in the context of under-pitching yeast is really mis-guided advice to those still learning about yeast pitching rates. Obviously if you 'felt' ill from the beer it was probably more to do with the awful taste from poor techniques. It's well known that pathogens cannot live in beer.

You've obviously never drunk a european lager then if you think beer is best drunk before two or three months, nor an aged stout/porter.


----------



## indica86

Jimbo12A said:


> You guys think this machine is a wank, well, so far, one gold medal,


I assume you own an Apple computer as well?
Sound like a bible basher with dribble like that.


----------



## lukiferj

Liam_snorkel said:


> What was the point of that post Jimbo? The machine _is_ a wank. A shiny, awesome, piece of wank. I would wank all over a stainless steel pressurised temperature controlled FV every day if I had one.


Ha. If I was drinking beer I would have spat it out all over myself. As it is, now I'm wearing a mouthful of meat pie.


----------



## pk.sax

Liam_snorkel said:


> What was the point of that post Jimbo? The machine _is_ a wank. A shiny, awesome, piece of wank. I would wank all over a stainless steel pressurised temperature controlled FV every day if I had one.


That is exactly it. It's a really cool gadget and capable I can tell from the description of it wrapped in the wanky mine is bigger than yours hype. But 7k!?!? wtf. I changed from using a plastic fermenter to a glass carboy because of making life easier (as in leave it in there longer without having to transfer etc). Next idea is to source a slow enough pump to pump the beer out rather than siphon. Once I get the refrigeration thing happening again I can look at running the airlock bit out to a pre-set prv (maybe... explosive krausens don't help). I've already set tt up with a bung + Thermowell that lets me measure the beer rather than the ambient temp to control the fridge/heating.

Granted none of this stuff is even half as blingy as the ww machine but 7k is a LOT to charge for something that can be done very easily by anyone using their head. I just don't get the apologists. Just let the friggin thread die. Each time someone pipes up its an advertisement, might have been ok if the maker wasn't such a knob about it.

Everyone that comes on here saying they brewed sub standard beers before they got their hands on one of these must really really brew with their eyes closed that they can't learn to do better. You know what, I can boat that a former kits n bits brewer who used to win awards for his efforts became a big fan of my beers. Didn't have a ww did I! Fairly ghetto, yet, learning a bit about the malt you are using and the effect of the hops and even more importantly the yeast to get the desired effect can get you a long way. If you visited and talked to the number of experienced home brewers around and pick their brains on how a malt works you'd bridge the gap a lot cheaper than making corona clones in a ww.

I see the ww as those mixmaster kinda thingies. With the heater integrated into the mixer, it chops, blends, purees and cooks your food for you like you were a retarded 60 year old. (No offence to bouncing lively 60 yo/s) basically - safe hospital food standards. What a life.


----------



## roger mellie

I cant disagree with you more Practical Fool. So with all due respect...

I have been making beer for ~ 20 years - more regularly since the mid 2000's. I have made some excellent beers - I have tipped some beers down the drain.

I started making beer in an esky - now I have a Braumeister - they are fricking expensive too for what they are.

The comment you make about "something that can be done very easily by anyone using their head" is bollocks. I am an engineer and I can't agree with that.

1. Full pressure fermentation - not so easy - you can get pressure vessels sure - but conical ones with lids that allow you to get into and clean?
​2. Ability to dump sediment during fermentation - haven't come across that one either
3. Built in Glycol refrigeration and heating system - jacketed conical. You could knock one of those up pretty easily right? Ferment anywhere from 1 Deg to 28 Deg C. Simple?
​4. Addition of colloidal clarification agent - agitation and ability to dump trub and clarified beer at 1 DegC - simple stuff - right?
5. There is even a spyglass at the top with an LED so you can look at your beer fermenting

All made of Stainless

In short - this is nothing like a mixmaster. Its a fermenter pure and simple - a fermenter - yep its expensive - Like the old Stella Artois advert - reassuringly expensive. No it won't make all my beers better - but yes it will exclude Oxygen during the process so my beer tastes fresher, lasts longer - the jury is out about making the beer making process faster by bypassing the need for ageing - I will hopefully prove that over time.

And if it gets people who want to get into brewing because you don't need a Esky/ Mash Tun/Mill/Kettle/Heat Source/Counter Flow Chiller/Kegging Setup/Filter/Perestalic Pump/March Pump/Fridge for fermenting/Fridge for dispensing (yep I got all of those) - is it a bad thing? Even their Kit Beers with 40gms of hops shoved in a Coffee Press thing taste clean, are clear, have flavour.

I cringed a bit when I saw some of the promo stuff - but cut the bloke some slack - his audience is the noobs - people who have probably never made a beer before. 

I agree - let the thread die - but I don't see any apologists - just testimonials of people who own one of these trying to make better beer.

Cheers

RM


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## pat_00

I think it looks like an awesome machine, it has got me wanting to try pressurised fermentation as that seems the biggest advantage of the design (apart from the usual conical advantages).

I couldn't justify selling my car for one though


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Onwards and upwards! To the pressurized fermentation thread we go!


----------



## pk.sax

roger mellie said:


> I cant disagree with you more Practical Fool. So with all due respect...
> 
> I have been making beer for ~ 20 years - more regularly since the mid 2000's. I have made some excellent beers - I have tipped some beers down the drain.
> 
> I started making beer in an esky - now I have a Braumeister - they are fricking expensive too for what they are.
> 
> The comment you make about "something that can be done very easily by anyone using their head" is bollocks. I am an engineer and I can't agree with that.
> 
> 1. Full pressure fermentation - not so easy - you can get pressure vessels sure - but conical ones with lids that allow you to get into and clean?
> ​2. Ability to dump sediment during fermentation - haven't come across that one either
> 3. Built in Glycol refrigeration and heating system - jacketed conical. You could knock one of those up pretty easily right? Ferment anywhere from 1 Deg to 28 Deg C. Simple?
> ​4. Addition of colloidal clarification agent - agitation and ability to dump trub and clarified beer at 1 DegC - simple stuff - right?
> 5. There is even a spyglass at the top with an LED so you can look at your beer fermenting
> 
> All made of Stainless
> 
> In short - this is nothing like a mixmaster. Its a fermenter pure and simple - a fermenter - yep its expensive - Like the old Stella Artois advert - reassuringly expensive. No it won't make all my beers better - but yes it will exclude Oxygen during the process so my beer tastes fresher, lasts longer - the jury is out about making the beer making process faster by bypassing the need for ageing - I will hopefully prove that over time.
> 
> And if it gets people who want to get into brewing because you don't need a Esky/ Mash Tun/Mill/Kettle/Heat Source/Counter Flow Chiller/Kegging Setup/Filter/Perestalic Pump/March Pump/Fridge for fermenting/Fridge for dispensing (yep I got all of those) - is it a bad thing? Even their Kit Beers with 40gms of hops shoved in a Coffee Press thing taste clean, are clear, have flavour.
> 
> I cringed a bit when I saw some of the promo stuff - but cut the bloke some slack - his audience is the noobs - people who have probably never made a beer before.
> 
> I agree - let the thread die - but I don't see any apologists - just testimonials of people who own one of these trying to make better beer.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> RM


I can agree with what you said there. The intended market is really the noobs. One of the things about trying to do your own engineering without a brief is that most things will end up over engineered like most home brewers realise. Some of the things in this machine are so, but they do make it idiot proof. Do brewers that like the process as much as the product need such over simplified idiot proof machines? Think that answer is plain enough. Again, I thought when I first saw the BM come up that why the hell would I want one. But after 2 years and some patches of not brewing at all because of a lack of time I've thought a few times if I should just get one! Courses for horses. Well said there from you and probably the best note to close this thread on.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Yes. 

I think this thread needs closing. 

Further posts from either side of the camp will do nothing more than cause more conflict.


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## sp0rk

Jimbo12A said:


> I brew all grain, No Chill, and I can still win awards for shows, although I don't compete much, as I think I have an unfair advantage, crystal clear beer, drinkable, fully carbonated at seven days, whereas you guys spend months getting there.Nine time times out of ten you can't enter, it's too cloudy and not enough carbonation for the judges.


My second beer (kit and bits) was crystal clear, tasted amazing and won a first place when entered in my first comp
My first allgrain again was crystal clear, tasted great and again won first place when I entered it in a comp
I do not filter, most of the time I don't use finings and I gladwrap my fermenters (BIAB No chill)
When I enter comps I force carb and then bottle using a CPBF, time from grain to comp ready is usually 14 days
Best not to assume


----------



## MastersBrewery

roger mellie said:


> I cant disagree with you more Practical Fool. So with all due respect...
> 
> I have been making beer for ~ 20 years - more regularly since the mid 2000's. I have made some excellent beers - I have tipped some beers down the drain.
> 
> I started making beer in an esky - now I have a Braumeister - they are fricking expensive too for what they are.
> 
> The comment you make about "something that can be done very easily by anyone using their head" is bollocks. I am an engineer and I can't agree with that.
> 
> 1. Full pressure fermentation - not so easy - you can get pressure vessels sure - but conical ones with lids that allow you to get into and clean?
> ​2. Ability to dump sediment during fermentation - haven't come across that one either
> 3. Built in Glycol refrigeration and heating system - jacketed conical. You could knock one of those up pretty easily right? Ferment anywhere from 1 Deg to 28 Deg C. Simple?
> ​4. Addition of colloidal clarification agent - agitation and ability to dump trub and clarified beer at 1 DegC - simple stuff - right?
> 5. There is even a spyglass at the top with an LED so you can look at your beer fermenting
> 
> All made of Stainless
> 
> In short - this is nothing like a mixmaster. Its a fermenter pure and simple - a fermenter - yep its expensive - Like the old Stella Artois advert - reassuringly expensive. No it won't make all my beers better - but yes it will exclude Oxygen during the process so my beer tastes fresher, lasts longer - the jury is out about making the beer making process faster by bypassing the need for ageing - I will hopefully prove that over time.
> 
> And if it gets people who want to get into brewing because you don't need a Esky/ Mash Tun/Mill/Kettle/Heat Source/Counter Flow Chiller/Kegging Setup/Filter/Perestalic Pump/March Pump/Fridge for fermenting/Fridge for dispensing (yep I got all of those) - is it a bad thing? Even their Kit Beers with 40gms of hops shoved in a Coffee Press thing taste clean, are clear, have flavour.
> 
> I cringed a bit when I saw some of the promo stuff - but cut the bloke some slack - his audience is the noobs - people who have probably never made a beer before.
> 
> I agree - let the thread die - but I don't see any apologists - just testimonials of people who own one of these trying to make better beer.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> RM


1 Brewhemoth and Glacier Tanks, most use a CIP ball spray to clean any way
2 More Beer
3 jacketeing fermenters was done due to their size and wanting specific temps for each vessel, fridge with brewpi would be just as accurate
4 Adding clarifying agent isn't rocket science event to a pressurised vessel, dumping trub see 2, agitation ahh ya got me but I don't think that would sway me to spend an extra $4000
5 Punkin
6 done and 3-4 times the volume

MB


----------



## zappa

I've quite enjoyed this thread. It has reminded me of those hipsters that bought Macintosh before Apple was cool, and paid 4 times the amount for the privilege. It's reminded me a little of Amway salesmen too. There's plenty of tongue in cheek here guys - don't take it too seriously!

Anyway, it's really got me thinking about fermenting under pressure and how I may go about it on the cheap. For that, I must thank Wobbly and friends. I'm half expecting someone to start a DIY WW project anytime now.

Cheers & beers


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## Camo6

I heard a rumour the WilliamsWarnWobblemiser is already under development.


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## manticle

> I brew all grain, No Chill, and I can still win awards for shows, although I don't compete much, as I think I have an unfair advantage, crystal clear beer, drinkable, fully carbonated at seven days, whereas you guys spend months getting there.Nine time times out of ten you can't enter, it's too cloudy and not enough carbonation for the judges.


I've stayed out of the to-ing and fro-ing because I see it as pointless but this is just utter rubbish. Williamswarn may give clear beer in 4-7 days and it may be quicker than other equipment but what beer needs months to get clear and carbonated?

Many people brew, ferment, filter and keg beers which are clear, taste great and are carbonated inside a week. Whether they are as good as WW, I'm not willing to state as I've never tried beer from one but to intimate that brewing, fermenting and carbonating by all other methods besides yours takes months doesn't do you any favours. You either don't understand the process (which presumably you do given your qualifications) or you're using hyperbole.

Most beers for me would probably have a 2 week turnaround from pitching to keg, which while twice as long as yours, is a far cry from the trimester you seem to have allocated to it. This is beer/style dependent - not sure if you're pushing out Belgian dark Strongs with yours but that kind of beer will get plenty more time before I want to touch it and probably get bottled rather than kegged.

As for not being able to enter comps because it's cloudy and flat - where the hell did you pull that from?

Speak up for the machine from personal experience by all means but don't make shit up. You're just adding to the us/them mentality that doesn't need to exist.


----------



## pcmfisher

Yes, I was unaware that the beer judges take into account how quickly a beer was produced.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Having a WilliamsWank will not automaticaly make you a brewing god, or automatically make you an expert brewer. This bullshit that only a WW will give award wining beer in a week is just that. I am sure many brewers who filter and keg in the same amount of time would have something to say about it. Just because you forked out $7k for a machine does not give you the right to start telling all and sundry that they cant brew as well as you can. Bit like buying a Ferrari then telling everyone else they dont know how to drive.


----------



## joshF

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Bit like buying a Ferrari then telling everyone else they dont know how to drive.


So true!!! In my opinion, alot of the really experienced brewers who make consistently great beer got there by starting from the ground up and perfecting the process over time. To see what works and what doesn't work.

What about one day when something on the Williamswank breaks down, malfunctions etc? I'm pretty sure it's not like NRMA where you can call up and get someone to look at your car or holla for a marshall. Most the brewers using rims, herms, biab etc have built their rigs from SCRATCH and hence learnt all the bits and pieces, learnt from past mistakes and can usually tell if something goes wrong on brew day or fix a problem in the process.

You can be filthy rich and afford a $7,000 machine but at the end of the day you still can't buy knowledge or experience. So i totally agree with Stu about having something expensive and then brown nosing everyone else with this 'assumed superiority'


----------



## roger mellie

To keep this in perspective though, and trying not to sound like a fanboy here - '1 Post Jimbo' made clearly ridiculous statements that no brewer in their right mind would even bother replying to. 

Josh - to answer your question as to what happens when the WW breaks down - What do you do if your fridge breaks down? Fix it yourself?. There isn't a shitload of funky electronics running these things - an Omron Temp Controller - A very small fridge set - a glycol tank and a recirc pump. 

This is a FERMENTER. It makes K&K beer with no need for a RIMS/HERMS system if thats your preference. It ferments Wort - makes beer. The end.

One person on this site has taken the stupid high ground and you guys are feeding the troll. FFS.

RM


----------



## sp0rk

roger mellie said:


> to answer your question as to what happens when the WW breaks down - What do you do if your fridge breaks down? Fix it yourself?.


I do...


----------



## Liam_snorkel

roger mellie said:


> This is a FERMENTER.


Bing! A super duper shiny fermenter with a tap on it, which is priced well above what most home brewers can afford (or want to pay for something which has nothing to do with wort production).

The target market is people with cash to burn who want something akin to a stainless steel automatic bread machine which some people have in their kitchens (just tip in some flour yeast and water and.. hey look honey.. I'm a baker! I dun gone made some bread!)

Yes, home brewers such as yourself will be able to use it and get the most out of the machine, we're/I'm very happy for you (and a touch jealous of the bling), but the designer has a shit attitude towards beer, comes across as a bit of a cock, and so do a few of the WW cheer squad who have posted on the forum.

Lets keep this thread going, trolls are fun, it is the internet after all.


----------



## roger mellie

Good for you Spork - most of the rest of us we don't have access to R134a nor the gauge set required to regas a fridge set. If you can find the leak!

I think this thread has passed its use by date - but as a parting shot.

I have read this site on and off since 2006 - and have seen a thing called the Braumeister appear during that time. The first comments passed from memory were along the lines of ' F*cking expensive Urn' and 'F*cked if I am paying ~3K for a kettle' - off went many people and made their own version.

Hasn't stopped a lot of people buying one though.

RM


----------



## sp0rk

roger mellie said:


> Good for you Spork - most of the rest of us we don't have access to R134a nor the gauge set required to regas a fridge set. If you can find the leak!
> 
> I think this thread has passed its use by date - but as a parting shot.
> 
> I have read this site on and off since 2006 - and have seen a thing called the Braumeister appear during that time. The first comments passed from memory were along the lines of ' F*cking expensive Urn' and 'F*cked if I am paying ~3K for a kettle' - off went many people and made their own version.
> 
> Hasn't stopped a lot of people buying one though.
> 
> RM


Relax mate, it was just an innocent dig
Sorry if it offended


----------



## Beerisyummy

The WW site offers a pretty good warranty on the units sold in NZ. 60 months from memory.

Just sayin.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Dont recall any braumeister users going on about how they became the worlds best brewer and anyonw who didnt have one was a shit brewer.

The damage has been done within the first page and the fanboys sure arnt helping to turn it around.It may well make good beer, and it would want to for the $$$......but to outright say it makes better beer is a big call, and frankly those that claim that deserve all that they get. If they started by saying that it makes good beer easly there would be no arguments...


----------



## MastersBrewery

good beer, better beer? It comes down to method and this method was not invented by WW, as far as I'm concerned purchasing this kit means you've got the cash to be too lazy to piece the equipment together yourself. I did the numbers over the last few weeks and to setup a pressure conical with all the doodads and programed temp control delivered to my door will come well under $2500. (that's 20gal too) The equipment is available, this thread is like paying the $7000 for a Brew Magic to be imported and saying it produces superior wort. Pressure conicals aren't easy to come by but they are available, and whilst pressure fermenting is in it's infancy in the homebrewing arena, I believe it will come to the fore over the next 5-10 years. I don't believe we'll all be buying WW's though.

MB


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Don't most of us start Home Brewing to make cheap beer? I mean, most go on to find expensive ways to make cheap beer, but the initial intention is to make cheap beer.

This kind of perplexes me - why spend $7k, when you're not going to recoup it for a very long time (why not go out and buy a kegging system, kegerator and have the things filled at Bru4U - it's cheaper _and_ easier). 

Those that spend $7k _after_ they start making cheap beer have an entirely different reason (perfecting the craft, creative outlet for either building or brewing or both), but that reason isn't applicable to going and outlaying $7k on a machine that kind of takes away the creative aspect of it.

At least the BM is half the price and still requires considerable creative input from the brewer, at least on the ingredients/beer side of things.


----------



## spudfarmerboy

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Dont recall any braumeister users going on about how they became the worlds best brewer and anyonw who didnt have one was a shit brewer.
> 
> The damage has been done within the first page and the fanboys sure arnt helping to turn it around.It may well make good beer, and it would want to for the $$$......but to outright say it makes better beer is a big call, and frankly those that claim that deserve all that they get. If they started by saying that it makes good beer easly there would be no arguments...


Don't worry about it Stu, you probably can't afford one anyway.


----------



## Florian

Can everyone please stop carrying on about the ******* price!

We all know they're expensive, get over it!


----------



## rehabs_for_quitters

Guys I think your missing the point this ain't no one trick pony http://www.williamswarn.com/Other-Uses see You can make cold, carbonated water in this machine as well. 

But seriously the idea yes its good and it's got me thinking about how I can achieve the same outcome for way less coin, which I will do with 50 L kegs converted to conicals in a cool room made from a couple of chest freezers on top of one another, then attach a fitting to connect to a keg to pump her over via CO2, might not look as wanky but will achieve the same result, I reckon for $2k I'll have about 400L fermenting space at least so cheers for the idea Mr WW, not going to run short I tell you.

it's a shame the guys who designed it are a complete pack of arrogant wankers really as they have kind of shot themsleves in the foot with home brewers


----------



## indica86

rehabs_for_quitters said:


> Guys I think your missing the point this ain't no one trick pony http://www.williamswarn.com/Other-Uses see You can make cold, carbonated water in this machine as well.


Holy shizzle! The world's biggest Soda Stream.

I'm getting one now.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

spudfarmerboy said:


> Don't worry about it Stu, you probably can't afford one anyway.


Well....you dont know that... And those type of comments only go to harm the cause of the WW...would you care to expand on your point...?

My brain has some ideas ticking over about how to make something that would do the same job....

That office water cooler could be put to very good use..I am a think outside the box kinda guy...


----------



## Bribie G

I have made a unanimous decision not to post on a WW thread.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Motion caried


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Overruled, based on precedent.


----------



## spudfarmerboy

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Well....you dont know that... And those type of comments only go to harm the cause of the WW...would you care to expand on your point...?
> .


You're right Stu, I don't know that.
But, you've posted on here that you have gone through a marriage bust up, you've been made redundant in your job and you're on the dole.
I'm guessing most people who have gone through those hardships in life probably haven't got $7000 to spend on homebrewing equipment.

Or would want to.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Not on a shiny single batch fermenter.


----------



## Mr. No-Tip

I williamswarned you guys about this.


----------



## pk.sax

3 wankers posting after each other. Now, if they were odd wankers they'd still be odd wankers. If they were even wankers they'd still be even wankers.


----------



## spudfarmerboy

practicalfool said:


> 3 wankers posting after each other. Now, if they were odd wankers they'd still be odd wankers. If they were even wankers they'd still be even wankers.


You've just made it four.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Williamswanker Party! Woohoo


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

spudfarmerboy said:


> You're right Stu, I don't know that.
> But, you've posted on here that you have gone through a marriage bust up, you've been made redundant in your job and you're on the dole.
> I'm guessing most people who have gone through those hardships in life probably haven't got $7000 to spend on homebrewing equipment.
> 
> Or would want to.


Your right. Life has thrown me some rotten pineapples....but that still doesnt mean I could not afford one. But thanks for taking the time to care 

Would I buy one...um....no...why...I just dont see value in it....and it will only do 23ltr batches. If you where a businessman and looked at the cost v return you would be crazy to go down that route...

Im not against it, as it has its place and worthy of respect, but not when it becomes an us & them situation you can go **** yourself. No one likes to be told that "I have better bling so I am superior"


----------



## spudfarmerboy

Liam_snorkel said:


> Williamswanker Party! Woohoo


I'll come to that, at least you know the beer will be award winning beer made in 7 days.


----------



## pk.sax

Most asked question at the party, are you wanker two? Or are you wanker four?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

spudfarmerboy said:


> I'll come to that, at least you know the beer will be award winning beer made in 7 days.


Says who.....Having a WW will not automaticly shower you with gold medals.....even you cant be so stupid to beleive that


----------



## Camo6

Allright! I may be out of beer but there's a shitload of popcorn in the pantry. And it's not even Friday night!


----------



## spudfarmerboy

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Your right. Life has thrown me some rotten pineapples....but that still doesnt mean I could not afford one. But thanks for taking the time to care.


Throw the rotten pineapples right back at them Stu and keep on going. Keep your chin up.
I agree with you about the price versus gain.


----------



## spudfarmerboy

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Says who.....Having a WW will not automaticly shower you with gold medals.....even you cant be so stupid to beleive that


I was being sarcastic Stu.
I may be stupid but even I don't think because you spend $7K you will make great beer.


----------



## pk.sax

For 7000/20, that is 350 six packs of decent craft brew at six pack rates you could drink a six pack a day for almost a year.

And you have NOT started spending on ingredients yet.

Washing the bullshit taste out costs nothing.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Camo6 said:


> Allright! I may be out of beer but there's a shitload of popcorn in the pantry. And it's not even Friday night!


http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78187-gota-hide-this-from-the-kids/?fromsearch=1


----------



## AndrewQLD

Posting as a member not admin.

A fair bit of angst in this thread about a product that you aren't being forced to buy, or even look at for that matter.
All you're doing is bumping this thread continuously and in turn that is making people curious as to what all the fuss is about, they then go to the source to have a look, I'm sure the retailer has had more hits thanks to this thread and all the negativity than he could possibly have imagined, sure you guys aren't affiliated  .

Seriously, if you don't like it and have offered your opinion why keep flogging the proverbial? Just let it go and it will fade into the background.


----------



## roger mellie

sp0rk said:


> Relax mate, it was just an innocent dig
> Sorry if it offended


No offence taken Spork

RM


----------



## sponge

LOUD NOISES!


----------



## joshF

sponge said:


> LOUD NOISES!


I love lamp


----------



## MastersBrewery

joshF said:


> I love lamp


Linux Apache Mysql PHP .... another IT guru go figure


----------



## joshF

I have no idea what the hell that means but it makes about as much sense as forking out $7k for a fermenter :lol:


----------



## shaunous

Can u [email protected]&ts SHUTUP, every time I check my emails there is 3.6mil notifications to this thread, yes I could just un-follow, but something knowledgable might be said, and I may miss that.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

You might be waiting a while


----------



## Liam_snorkel

No, another thread was set up for that. This is the bitching/trolling/chatting thread. Change your notification settings.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

MastersBrewery said:


> Linux Apache Mysql PHP .... another IT guru go figure


I wonder if the WW is Windows based......but im guessing more Mac......all shiny and overpriced.


----------



## zappa

Why pay 7k for a WW when you can have the cheap knock-off for around 200 shipped?

http://www.homebrewing.org/OneDerBrew-Deluxe-System-Black_p_3042.html

Seem to be available at multiple places, including Amazon... Very cheap for a pressurised conical.


----------



## wobbly

zappa said:


> Why pay 7k for a WW when you can have the cheap knock-off for around 200 shipped?
> 
> http://www.homebrewing.org/OneDerBrew-Deluxe-System-Black_p_3042.html
> 
> Seem to be available at multiple places, including Amazon... Very cheap for a pressurised conical.


Go to the referenced web site and they state "no longer stock this item!!"

And from the comments section on the Amazon sight for this product.
_I Would Not Recommend This Product. Seals Leak. Lost An Entire Batch Of Beer. Tried Twice. Same Results. Not A Quality Product For The Price. Piece Of Junk. Seller Does Not Stand Behind Product. Seller Said To Find And Contact Manufacturer...And Let Him (The Seller) Know What Happens. Seriously? Run The Other Direction, Don't Even Consider This one._

So I guess you get what you pay for

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## zappa

Oh yes, the 1 star review below the two 5 star reviews. There's still some left on Amazon, BTW.

It is just a plastic bucket clamped to a cone with some legs, dispensing valve and a thermostat.

Highlighted this to show how easy it could be to build a DIY pressurised fermenting vessel along the lines of a WW without having to spend your house deposit. You're right though. I have no doubt it wouldn't be as good as the WW.

There's some other reviews out there of this system, including one from Chicago Beer Geeks. It's not all bad.


----------



## MastersBrewery

malted (long time member) here did get one of these, not sure if he still uses it though


----------



## zappa

I just went searching and found his thread too. Worthwhile sharing it here I think.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/67295-onederbrew-affordable-plastic-conical-fermenter/

Looks like they've also got a stainless one now. They have a dedicated website - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/67295-onederbrew-affordable-plastic-conical-fermenter/

It certainly has it's appeal. And if the buckets could be sourced locally, the cone, clamp and seals can be had for around 60USD.


----------



## indica86

zappa said:


> They have a dedicated website - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/67295-onederbrew-affordable-plastic-conical-fermenter/


Not a particularly helpful link,


----------



## zappa

Sorry, should have been http://onederbrew.com/mobi/default.html


----------



## indica86

That's cool.


----------



## lukiferj

More bullshit from the makers of WW


----------



## manticle

Shit ad.


----------



## lukiferj

Indeed


----------



## indica86

No, that's a really good ad.
I for one had my man-hood taken away.
I was born when circumcision was the done thing.
Now I can reclaim the Hood!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Are they marketing to Hipsters.....


----------



## Liam_snorkel

No they're marketing to boofheads.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

You mean hipsters.....


----------



## spryzie

lame


----------



## lukiferj

From the ww facebook page:

Hi. We tested the waters today with a Facebook post of what we thought might be a humorous advert for use in the future. Not done by a marketing company, just us brewers in the office in a few minutes. We found out it was actually humorless. The concept was to challenge men to find the he-man within and buy a brewery. We wanted feedback on the content from social media as we'd done that before and had great results from people. But this time we got it very clearly via twitter that the angle in the ad was way out of line. We took it down after about 5 minutes once we saw the feedback. It came across very sexist, old school, and done before by breweries that want to provoke. We feel very bad at the outrage we ended up provoking and we sincerely apologies to anyone that took offense. We were trying to challenge men rather than offend anyone. It has been a very valuable lesson. We found out that the company that we are, which is based on something very real and special, being the worlds first brewing appliance, doesn't need to provoke. The product we offer is a classy product and any adverts we do in the future needs to remember and reflect that. Thanks to all who bothered to feedback. We got it. Cheers. Ian Williams.


----------



## GuyQLD

How
To
Make a
Shit
Advertisement

1. Emasculate your male dominated audience.
2. Fail one of the fundamentals of sales, closing too early.
3. Use far too many commas.


----------



## Beerisyummy

They should've just stuck with the tried and true method of advertising. Hot chick with big tits leaning on said equipment. Simple and straight to the point.
Nothing sexist, of course.

The apology;
-Go and find _your_ testicles Ian.
- Tell her _you_ thought it was funny at the time. Soft cock.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

He twitted on his Facbook.


----------



## Beerisyummy

_You _Ian, just showed the first sign of a business failing to live up to expectations. Why were _they _having a crack at doing the marketing? 

" The reality is that, moving forward and utilising the current market indicators, we have no idea why the KPI's are so low".

The product was good, but you alienated yourself from the punter and priced yourself out of the game. It's the reason most businesses fail.


----------



## Yob

wobbly said:


> So I guess you get what you pay for
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly


out of general curiosity Ian Wobbly.. have you entered any of your WW beers into any comps?

BTW, the quality of beer produced is not related to how much you pay for a system...

just sayin..


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

I can buy a lot of grain,eskies,$20 stockpots,gas etc for $5k. Even if it takes me 20 brews to get it right...I am still going to be way in front...

Be interesting to see how AG brews are going in it.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Yob said:


> BTW, the quality of beer produced is not related to how much you pay for a system...
> 
> just sayin..


Look at Lion & CUB.....they have spent hundreds of millions....and most of there beer is shit.


----------



## booargy

This reminds of people who say I have found this microcontroller look what it has the potential to do. look look yes I know it is called arduino. Fermenting with pressure and spunding is not new. 
Trying to explain and justify something to someone that they already know makes you an idiot.


----------



## wobbly

Yob said:


> out of general curiosity Ian Wobbly.. have you entered any of your WW beers into any comps?
> 
> BTW, the quality of beer produced is not related to how much you pay for a system...
> 
> just sayin..


Yob (and others) - No I haven't submitted any of my beer fermented in the WW into a competition

However I have entered some of my pre WW beers into an open competition and achieved both a first place for style and also best in show award for the same beer so I know the bench mark and I'm satisfied with my current beers and don't need reinforcement.

And in regard to your second point about the quality of beer not being related to how much you pay for a system_ - _I disagree as they say "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!!!"

I'm sure you and others agree that the quality of your beer can/will improve if you use better than average equipment and processes otherwise why would home brewers be continually upgrading their equipment from plastic and aluminium to stainless steel and conical fermenters etc.

Just sayin!!!!

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Because some brewers think bling makes better beer.

Some of the best beers I have had, made by other brewers,where made in nothing more than willow eskies, old stock pot for a kettle and a plastic fermenter.

Bling can make life easier, but it wont make your beer better.

And I have had beers made with BM, 3v detups with pumps and shiny stuff....and they where no better.


----------



## sp0rk

wobbly said:


> And in regard to your second point about the quality of beer not being related to how much you pay for a system_ - _I disagree as they say "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!!!"


Way to make your point using a False Analogy...


----------



## Beerisyummy

sp0rk said:


> Way to make your point using a False Analogy...


Maybe polishing a turd would've been a better term.


----------



## pcmfisher

lukiferj said:


> More bullshit from the makers of WW


Can't be any worse an ad than receiving a beer through the back of a fridge from Lionel Ritchie..........


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Or Carlton Draught.."made from beer"


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

wobbly said:


> as they say "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!!!"


But you can make fantastic beer with an old esky,stock pot & plastic fermenter.....


----------



## lukiferj

pcmfisher said:


> Can't be any worse an ad than receiving a beer through the back of a fridge from Lionel Ritchie..........


I disagree. It's a shit beer but the ads weren't too bad.


----------



## pk.sax

wobbly said:


> Yob (and others) - No I haven't submitted any of my beer fermented in the WW into a competition
> 
> However I have entered some of my pre WW beers into an open competition and achieved both a first place for style and also best in show award for the same beer so I know the bench mark and I'm satisfied with my current beers and don't need reinforcement.
> 
> And in regard to your second point about the quality of beer not being related to how much you pay for a system_ - _I disagree as they say "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!!!"
> 
> I'm sure you and others agree that the quality of your beer can/will improve if you use better than average equipment and processes otherwise why would home brewers be continually upgrading their equipment from plastic and aluminium to stainless steel and conical fermenters etc.
> 
> Just sayin!!!!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly


Here you say your beer won awards.

Earlier (another thread) you'd mentioned you couldn't quite nail down a good beer, something was missing till you used a williamswank.

So, are you trying to tell us your award winning beers were a bit meh?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

At least he doesnt need reinforcement on how good his WW beers are against his pre WW show winning beers.


----------



## Florian

practicalfool said:


> Here you say your beer won awards.
> 
> Earlier (another thread) you'd mentioned you couldn't quite nail down a good beer, something was missing till you used a williamswank.
> 
> So, are you trying to tell us your award winning beers were a bit meh?


Winning a first place in a comp doesn't automatically mean the beer is great, it just means the beer was better than the other competing ones.
If there are three beers competing in a class and one of them is shit, and the other two are really shit than the shit one gets a first place.

I'm sure at least one of my beers that got a first place was a bit meh or even worse, that's why it sometimes makes me smile when people boast on here with their placings. 

If you win gold by BJCP standards, well that's a different story, but a first place really doesn't necessarily have to mean all that much.

So in summary, quite possible that Wobbly got a first place but wasn't really happy with the beer.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

You should have come to the local Grafton Show Society beer judging.

It was a case of,at least in Cl1, the lesser of the bad beers...


----------



## wobbly

practicalfool said:


> Here you say your beer won awards.
> 
> Earlier (another thread) you'd mentioned *you couldn't quite nail down a good beer*, something was missing till you used a williamswank.
> 
> So, are you trying to tell us your award winning beers were a bit meh?


Practicalfool re your above post referencing that I had mentioned* "that I couldn't nail down a good beer" * in fairness to what I did say back in post #36 you have misquoted me - what I did say was

_•I haven't yet been able to master the technique to produce a first class Pilsner which the one from TWOC's set up was_

One of my missions is still to brew a good pilsner something that has avoided me to date for one reason or another most being either recipe design and/or yeast preparation.

As you will have noted from various posts through out this topic is my ability to manage the amount of "break" material I am getting carried over from the BM to the WW and it is this subject that has my attention at this time rather than pursuing the "perfect pilsner" and to this end I have started another topic on methods of minimising Hot/Cold break carry over. 



Florian said:


> Winning a first place in a comp doesn't automatically mean the beer is great, it just means the beer was better than the other competing ones.
> If there are three beers competing in a class and one of them is shit, and the other two are really shit than the shit one gets a first place.
> 
> I'm sure at least one of my beers that got a first place was a bit meh or even worse, that's why it sometimes makes me smile when people boast on here with their placings.
> 
> If you win gold by BJCP standards, well that's a different story, but a first place really doesn't necessarily have to mean all that much.
> 
> So in summary, quite possible that Wobbly got a first place but wasn't really happy with the beer.


Yes you are very correct Florian that first place doesn't automatically mean a great beer. My beer was a Pale Ale and from memory there were 25 to 30 entries and yes I guess mine was judged to be the best of a possible poor/bad bunch but then again just maybe it was better than that. I don't recall how the judges scored the beer so whether it complied with BJCP standards I don't know. I was just thrilled to get the awards that I did for that beer and those that drink at my place don't seem to mind coming back for a few more.

So in conclusion I am happy with my Pale Ales and have somewhere to go with Pilsners once I resolve as best I can the amount of sediment in the WW sediment bottle/trap. Just like members have had to find some/a work around for aspects of the BM (big beers) this appears to be one for the WW (sediment management with fresh wort from my BM)

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## pk.sax

Happy to be corrected, didn't quote you per de because it was a paraphrased memory of your comment.

Look, on the + side your ww wars inspired us to trial out pressure ferments. Still think it's a bit of an oversold fermenter, suits some. I'm not getting into a fight about that, I'm happy with my beers too.


----------



## Goose

I see no reason why Mr Wobbly cannot make a first class beer ...... not because he is using a WW but because he is preparing his wort correctly from grain.

To me, wort preparation is most of the job and where the essence of the beer is made. I am not discounting the role of yeast and temperature control in the fermentation process, but to me the WW unit is a fancy conical fermenter cum dispenser that uses retained CO2 from the ferment to carbonate the brew. The alleged benefits of pressure fermentation, I cannot comment on and I would need a side by side taste and visual comparison to judge.


----------



## StalkingWilbur

To be fair, it doesn't matter how fantastic your wort is, if you do a shit job of fermentation it's going to be a shit beer. So I would argue that, if you had to chose, that fermentation is more important.


----------



## pk.sax

You can't turn a turd into a chocolate cake. But you certainly can turn a chocolate cake into a turd.


----------



## indica86

StalkingWilbur said:


> To be fair, it doesn't matter how fantastic your wort is, if you do a shit job of fermentation it's going to be a shit beer. So I would argue that, if you had to chose, that fermentation is more important.


Nope, can't Polish a Turd.
ORRRRR shine a shit.

It doesn't matter how flash your FV is, you can't pretend a shit wort is good.


----------



## Goose

StalkingWilbur said:


> To be fair, it doesn't matter how fantastic your wort is, if you do a shit job of fermentation it's going to be a shit beer. So I would argue that, if you had to chose, that fermentation is more important.


I don't disagree, but putting in context.... the point is how much control do you really have over your fermentation vs wort preparation and how any extra tweaks and benefits does the WW provide in that process ?


----------



## TSMill

Goose said:


> but to me the WW unit is a fancy conical fermenter cum dispenser


OK, now I don't want to drink ANYTHING that comes out of a WW!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

Got to give Wobbly points for trying. Its a tough gig. Made even tougher by posting responses from the designer that we are all basically shit brewers, trolls and no idea what where doing.

I hope Ian is paying you well Wobbly. But the hole has been well and trully dug.....and deep.


----------



## Goose

TSMill said:


> OK, now I don't want to drink ANYTHING that comes out of a WW!



LOL I knew that was coming ...


----------



## booargy

I looked into buying one of these and there were some things that put me off. Main thing is they are to small. VPRV is manual the temp controller is worth about $20 and there is no timer. Set the pressure at about 2.5 turns is not good enough I nearly have my control system finished to do the 3 and it will even vacuum the wort from the kettle to FV add a Chinese ice bank chiller and you have more function that can give you precise result not just about right.


----------



## pk.sax

$20!!!!

I reckon you need to count in the $6980 per hour Ian Williams spent analysing the problem (per unit) and then ordered it from eBay to add to his cum machine.


----------



## MaltyHops

Goose said:


> I see no reason why Mr Wobbly cannot make a first class beer ...... not because he is using a WW but because he is preparing his wort correctly from grain.
> 
> To me, wort preparation is most of the job and where the essence of the beer is made. I am not discounting the role of yeast and temperature control in the fermentation process, but to me the WW unit is a fancy conical fermenter _*cum dispenser*_ that uses retained CO2 from the ferment to carbonate the brew. The alleged benefits of pressure fermentation, I cannot comment on and I would need a side by side taste and visual comparison to judge.


I can't believe I just saw that


----------



## booargy

OK so now it is a WWCD glad I didn't buy one. Hahaha


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

MaltyHops said:


> I can't believe I just saw that


You can read it many ways.

Bit like helping jack off a horse


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Florian said:


> Winning a first place in a comp doesn't automatically mean the beer is great, it just means the beer was better than the other competing ones.
> If there are three beers competing in a class and one of them is shit, and the other two are really shit than the shit one gets a first place.
> 
> I'm sure at least one of my beers that got a first place was a bit meh or even worse, that's why it sometimes makes me smile when people boast on here with their placings.
> 
> If you win gold by BJCP standards, well that's a different story, but a first place really doesn't necessarily have to mean all that much.
> 
> So in summary, quite possible that Wobbly got a first place but wasn't really happy with the beer.


Not sure if I am reading this right but beers arent usually judged against each other but against style guidelines, in which case even the best beer can be crap.
Or are you saying the WW comp was beer against beer, appears subjective if this is the case?


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## roger mellie

booargy said:


> I looked into buying one of these and there were some things that put me off. Main thing is they are to small. VPRV is manual the temp controller is worth about $20 and there is no timer. Set the pressure at about 2.5 turns is not good enough I nearly have my control system finished to do the 3 and it will even vacuum the wort from the kettle to FV add a Chinese ice bank chiller and you have more function that can give you precise result not just about right.


The thing is though Booargy that setting the pressure relief valve is such a small part of the whole process - insignificantly so. The fact that the pressure changes relatively slowly at first - I leave mine fully closed then open it when the pressure gets to where I want - if it is a bit above - no issue - open/bleed down - move on.

Pressure control would be possible - are you measuring the pressure and using a PID controller to control a valve? Interested to hear how you have gone about pressure control. I think you could spend a lot of money achieving a result that is perfectly suited to a manual valve.

I don't know what version of WW you looked at but the Temp Controller they are using is an Omron E5CC - I work in the automation industry and in the 48mm form factor they don't get much better than Omron - besides - the hysteresis is set at 1 degC and so thats the accuracy +/- 0.5 DegC - works perfectly.

And what would you use a timer for BTW?

Would your Vacuum system negate the need for a March pump?

RM


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## booargy

I have auberins pressure controller with absolute sensor. Temp and time will be controlled with the 30 step pid controller. It still doesn'thave pressure set points so eventually iI will move to arduino I just don't have knowhow yet and I want to get this system working first.
I got a vacuum pump so I could vacuum an evaporator coil on a split system to build my own glycol chiller. I have also used it to transfer cider from demijohn to keg. i heard of others using vacuum to move biodiesel around and it would probably work well for filtering. My new system will have dedicated whirlpool vessel so transfer to FV pump isnt needed. I will have my new system working very soon and will be able give more practical feedback.


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## roger mellie

Good to see that you have gone with a high quality controller there Booargy - not just a cheap $20 one. :blink:

I still don't get what the timer will be for? 

What volume is the system you are building?

Good luck with it all.

RM


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## booargy

Timer is for ramp pitch a 8c ramp to 14c over 7 days drop to -2 over 5 days hold -2 for 14 days raise back to 2 for storage.I want to be able to have a set ferment program. I don't have exact figures on me.
The system is 100l and will probably cost me the same as WW in the end but coin isn't really the issue.


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## Elz

Update
I am consistently brewing great beer. Currently on brew number 14, imperial stout (9.4%) and aside from being a little malty it stacks up to some of the best i have tasted. Noting that there are issues with AG and dealing with the trube, the only other issue i have encountered is finding or finessing the dry hopping schedule. However i am still only brewing extract, but looking atthe Grainfather one they introduce a mash schedule. Temp control for fermenting and severing beer at the correct temp is a godsend. Furthermore bottling is a breeze but i have found only really necessary every 2-4 brews only to tide me over between brews
Cheers 
Elz


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## Elz

Plus all the bling bullsh$t from previous posts, waste of breath; turns out to be workhorse and probably one of my wisest investmets.
Cheers again
Elz


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## H0U5ECAT

http://www.harveynorman.com.au/williamswarn-personal-brewery.html

$8k for something my $25 fermenter and $1k keezer build can do? no thanks


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## beercus

+ CO2 bottle


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## sp0rk

I bet HN wouldn't give you any idea of where to buy a CO2 bottle


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## Yob

Oh gods.. Why.. Why would you do this?

Weren't the previous 2 epic threads enough of a shit fight?


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## Weizguy

HN blurb states "allows users to create 23L of award winning beer from home in just seven days".

They should state that the quality of beer depends on external factors, entirely dependent on brewer skill and sanitary conditions.

Sounds like a guarantee to me. No wonder they can command a hefty price.


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## TSMill

They sell soda streams......


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## indica86

Categories
Wine Fridges


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## bazfletch3

Sigh....

Cue another week of mindless opinionated trolling and anger....


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## H0U5ECAT

but... a stainless conical 30ltr is pretty sweet.


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## MastersBrewery

Yob said:


> Oh gods.. Why.. Why would you do this?
> 
> Weren't the previous 2 epic threads enough of a shit fight?


It was 3 threads Yob, I thought 3 was more than sufficient!


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## manticle

> It was 3 threads Yob, I thought 3 was more than sufficient!


Topics have been merged.


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## AndrewQLD

Yob said:


> Oh gods.. Why.. Why would you do this?
> 
> Weren't the previous 2 epic threads enough of a shit fight?


Or everyone that's sick of reading WW threads could actually stop reading them and, heaven forbid, stop commenting in them.


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## wobbly

H0U5ECAT said:


> http://www.harveynorman.com.au/williamswarn-personal-brewery.html
> 
> $8k for something my $25 fermenter and $1k keezer build can do? no thanks


That's utter bullshit

Yes they aren't cheap but then neither is a Porsche and if you took the time to understand what the WW can and does do (ferment under pressure, carbonate, chill, clarify, ability to harvest "clean yeast" and dispense all in an oxygen free environment in 7 days for ales and 9 days for lagers/pilsners) in a single stainless steel vessel that nothing else available does then maybe you wouldn't make such claims and if/when you respond to these points be specific about an actual single vessel set up that exists and just don't rabbit on that you or someone else could make one.

Yes I know I am leaving my self open to ongoing rubbish responses but at least I know how it compares to most of the other brew vessels and fermenters having tread the road from a "bucket of death", a backyard three vessel set up, to one of the original "all in one" breweries and back to a three vessel set up before purchasing a 20lt Braumeister. As to fermenting I have gone from a plastic fermenter in the laundry then went high tech and draped a towel over it for temperature control and then went up market to a temperature controlled fridge before realising all the benefits of the WW and made the jump. 

Elz and Roger Millie are a couple of other brewers that know just how good this piece of equipment is also having gone down similar roads. Roger has also reportedly used SS conicals and either earlier in this or another thread stated that with all his past experiments and experiences the WW out performs the lot of them

At least we are able to speak from experience and not just shoot our mouths of.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Cman




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## Blind Dog

I don't own a WW, and probably never will. But I doubt the members here who have one are either stupid or less competent brewers, as evidenced by their posts on this and other topics. It fulfils their requirements and I suspect it is an excellent piece of kit.


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## Camo6

Edit: Audio NSFW!

http://youtu.be/yJ-jvEd0pDw


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## pk.sax

Does it make pancakes?


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## shaunous

practicalfool said:


> Does it make pancakes?


That's an extra option and part of the WWW - William Warns Wife


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## pk.sax

shaunous said:


> That's an extra option and part of the WWW - William Warns Wife


That snoot just orders it in.


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## Black Devil Dog

shaunous said:


> That's an extra option and part of the WWW - William Warns Wife


How much does the extra W cost? I have a goat, or is that paying too much?


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## black_labb

wobbly said:


> if you took the time to understand what the WW can and does do (ferment under pressure, carbonate, chill, clarify, ability to harvest "clean yeast" and dispense all in an oxygen free environment in 7 days for ales and 9 days for lagers/pilsners) in a single stainless steel vessel that nothing else available does then maybe you wouldn't make such claims and if/when you respond to these points be specific about an actual single vessel set up that exists and just don't rabbit on that you or someone else could make one.
> 
> Wobbly


I think the issues is you don't realise what many brewers on AHB understand and that we are all very familiar with what is important for brewing.

The fact that it does it all in one vessel seems to really seems to excite you but I don't see that any anything more than a hindrance for most brewers.

Fermenting under pressure does speed up fermentation but that doesn't bother most brewers as they can have another brew fermenting while still drinking another brew. 

Having the ability to harvest clean yeast is not a unique feature of the WW, it is a feature of conical vessels. Stainless Conical vessels are available but very few brewers see enough benefit to them to pay their cost. That cost FYI is about 10-20% of the cost of the WW. Yes you can ferment under pressure in the conicals and carbonate your brew in them. It would take very little to serve beer from a pressure rated conical in the same way you do in the WW.

Minimising oxygen contact is manageable enough on homebrew levels and can be improved in many different ways including something like the stainless conicals above. Do you drink freshly distilled water only?

If no one had heard of the WW and someone on here put exactly a WW together we would all comment on how they've done a good job, interesting design, question some of the factors that we question now. Then we'd comment that it doesn't suit our needs due to the fact that it is all one piece and processing/drinking can't run side by side. Instead we get a few people including the manufacturer claiming that it is a superior system and then constantly told that we should buy it. We see and understand it and don't understand what is impressive about it. The price makes it seem all the more unbelievable. It's like someone selling a car with a carphone and charging double simply because it is a car with a phone. Most people have a car and a separate phone and they feel that having them stuck together would be inconvenient.

I'm not going to disagree that the WW will produce good beer and requires less effort. Double batches probably do more for minimising effort though, can you do that on the WW?


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## Ducatiboy stu

Black Devil Dog said:


> How much does the extra W cost? I have a goat, or is that paying too much?


Houses, Super, Solicitors.....etc..etc...


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## GuyQLD

Like a Porsche guys, argument is clearly over. Like a Porsche.


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## Porkchop

I can get two of these at reduced price as the are display models.


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## Yob

$$50, best offer


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## Camo6

Silent auction?

$55


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## sp0rk

How much reduced?


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## Nullnvoid

Yob said:


> $$50, best offer


Is that for both?


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## welly2

Yob said:


> $$50, best offer


Here you go: W

$50 please.


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