# Do Phenolics Dissipate With Ageing?



## manticle (9/8/09)

It could be due to an infection (in which case I guess the flavour will get stronger rather than weaker) but there's a hint of medicine/clove in my about to be bottled brew.

If it's due to chlorephenols, will it dissipate given enough ageing time or is it there to stay?

I use bleach/vinegar for sanitaion although I'm usually fairly cautious in rinsing with hot water afterwards then again with sodium met solution. However the sod met is rinsed with cold tap water right before use. I've done this a fair few times and had no other brew taste this way but it seems a potential culprit nonetheless.


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## haysie (9/8/09)

I have that medicinal thing before, terrible. Wild yeast.


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## manticle (9/8/09)

From what I read it can be due to a number of things - chlorine being one of them, yeast being another and various bacterial infections another.

Just wondering which bit of my sanitation regime needs changing and if this brew has any chance of improving.


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## haysie (9/8/09)

Bandaid, clove, medicinal all leads too wild yeast. No repair! It wont get better, dont bottle any of it. Cleaning regime would have zero effect, albeit you way over do it.


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## Adamt (9/8/09)

If you're not using a yeast designed to create phenolics (e.g. a weizen yeast), it's an infection. Phenols are clove/spicy, medicinal/bandaid are chlorophenols, where the phenols have reacted with chlorine present in your beer.

Chlorophenols have a MUCH lower taste threshold than the chlorine, if you haven't changed anything in your brewing technique I would guess the chlorine is nothing to worry about, the phenols (from the apparent infection) are the underlying issue.

If you're bottling it I agree with haysie, don't bother as it will get worse! Though if you can keg and keep it cold it won't get much worse (if you can stomach it now).


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## manticle (9/8/09)

It was US05 so no: phenols are not an expected product. My girlfriend (unprompted) tasted cloves, I taste bandaids.

The technique was different to my usual - apart from anything else it was a no-chill (something I've never done before) but it was done properly by someone experienced so I think it's a fermentation issue.

I don't keg but it's only a half batch so I may experiement with bottling nonetheless. I have plenty of bottles and plenty of caps so no harm done. I just won't expect too much. Throwing away beer makes my head hurt (although if you are right and it stays or gets stronger after a couple of weeks then I'll have no choice - I don't like drinking band-aids.)

If it is infected it's my first all brew infection.


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## goatherder (9/8/09)

manticle said:


> From what I read it can be due to a number of things - chlorine being one of them, yeast being another and various bacterial infections another.
> 
> Just wondering which bit of my sanitation regime needs changing and if this brew has any chance of improving.



Regardless of whether the taint is due to infection or your sanitising products, you ought to consider changing your sanitation regime.

Bleach & vinegar is a very effective sanitiser, there is no doubt about that. As you are clearly aware, it does need rinsing after use to remove the awful smell & taste which it imparts into your very absorbent plastic fermenters. Once you rinse (even with hot water), you are putting microflora from the rinsing water back into the fermenter, rendering it no longer sanitised. The followup rinse with sodium met is not helping you either - sodium met needs to completely dry before it sanitises properly and you get left with the residue. You mentioned you rinse this too, but again, you are only as sanitary as the last thing which contacts your equipment. Also, sodium met is not too kind to your respiratory system.

My advice would be to invest in some Starsan. It is a no-rinse sanitisers which you can spray onto clean equipment a few minutes before you use it. There's no need to rinse, as there is no flavour imparted to the beer when it is used at the correct dilution rates. Less work and better results. It costs a little more than the options you are using at the moment, but it is still very cheap. A $20 bottle will last years.

Also, my experience with overly phenolic beers (clove-like) has been that they don't fade in time. Sorry.


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## manticle (9/8/09)

Came across starsan recently and it's likely I'll be getting some soon. Looks the goods.

In regards to the sod met - I do empty and let stand for a minimum of one hour before rinsing and the sanitation and subsequent rinsing is always done directly before use so I'm fairly certain there's no time for anything to grow.

The reason I thought it may be chlorephenols due to something apart from infection is that I've tasted a bandaid infected brew and the flavour was far stronger than this. Mine is a subtle aftertaste rather than overpowering. At the moment it can be drunk rather than spat - it's just offputting in the same way acetyladehyde can be. Since everything about the brew was different to normal (brewed off premises on a different system, first no-chill) I'm trying to work out which part of the process it came from.

Anyway starsan is on the list.


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## jayse (9/8/09)

manticle said:


> Came across starsan recently and it's likely I'll be getting some soon. Looks the goods.
> 
> In regards to the sod met - I do empty and let stand for a minimum of one hour before rinsing and the sanitation and subsequent rinsing is always done directly before use so I'm fairly certain there's no time for anything to grow.
> 
> ...



Napisan is good for the cleaning and then starsan.
The phenols could have potentialy come from a few different sources, what is the water like? If your water already tastes of bandaids you'd be in trouble  
The role water alone can play ismassive
Combined with water and maybe a overcrush and/or over sparge you could get phenols and chlorophenols in beer.
You can easily take chlorine out of the picture but you can't as easily nail down the source of the phenols without disecting everything a bit more and tasting the beer.
Wild yeast would be the most likely suspect because if it was malt, water or bad mashing techniquie it would show to varying degrees in other of your beers.
That article there sites some breweries with ongoing similiar phenols in all beers and the breweries themselves at the time put it down to acceptable house character.

Even if the bandaid flavour does not get any worse it won't fade, only the beer underneath will fade. So if it is not drinkable now its not worth bottling.
Hopefully it doesn't happen again.


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## HoppingMad (9/8/09)

Mants you've mentioned using sodium met on a couple of threads - know you are meticulous on your sterilising regime from what you've said here and previously, but more and more I'm seeing info out there pushing sodium percarbonate over sodium met for sterilising (I'm not a chemist so can't tell you why). I gave my last jar of sodium met away as have been reading more and more about people favouring percarb over met.

Examples like this - from the coopers homebrew website:



> Coopers Sanitiser contains Sodium Percarbonate, an environmentally friendly cleaner/sanitiser for Home Brew equipment, which is more effective and safer than Sodium Metabisulphite.



Source: Bottom of page

Sodium Percarbonate is available in sachels at most home brew stores (The much maligned Brewcraft seems to favour these too h34r. Alternately save some dough and get some home brand napisan (unscented). You'll note the active ingredient on the side of both Napisan and home brand is sodium percarb (I've found the Safeway Select unscented stuff actually has more active ingredient than Napisan does and a tub of this goes a long way).

Anyhow sorry - don't want to kick you while you're down, is a bugger of a thing to have happen - I hate tipping brews myself, but maybe rethink using the met. Or make sure a healthy dose of hot water from the kettle gets applied in between your bleach and vinegar routine.

All the best on the next one,

Hopper.


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## DJR (10/8/09)

Sodium Percarbonate isn't a full sanitiser. Use the starsan, Iodophor or if you are game some Phosphoric Acid. Sodium Percarb is a good cleaner but doesn't kill effectively enough to sanitise.

It's only a matter of time i reckon before people that use Sodium Met get an infection...


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## manticle (10/8/09)

DJR said:


> Sodium Percarbonate isn't a full sanitiser.



Yes, I was under the impression it was used for cleaning, not sanitation.


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## bconnery (10/8/09)

If you have a wild yeast infection then chances are it has come in from a source external to the equipment. 
If this is the case your choice of sanitiser makes absolutely sfa difference as the infection comes in during the brewing process. 

I have issues with wild yeast infections at certain times of the year when the environment in which I brew becomes laden with various fruiting and flowering trees. 
It's an annoying thing because you can change nothing in terms of process between brews and one will be fine and the other will get that taste and be good only for tipping. 

I use napisan for cleaning and starsan for sanitation, I was using iodophor before that, and it doesn't make any difference. 
Following the advice of another brewer who had lots of wild yeast issues I have changed my process, not sanitising routine, and have had no issues since. 

I don't know for sure if this is what you have, and choosing an appropriate cleaning/sanitising combination is essential regardless, but if it is wild yeast then you need a process change, not an product one. 

I now essentially chill in the fermenter, transferring to the closed container while the wort is over 70C, usually around the 80 mark. Then it goes into the brew fridge and cools overnight.


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## brendo (10/8/09)

In an effort to help out Manticle, I will put my hand up as the Brewer of the beer that he is currently having trouble with.

I followed the same process I have for quite a few brews now, and I haven't picked up anything noticeable in any batches to date - in fact Manticle sampled a few of these batches during the brew day.

With respect to wild yeast - all of the beer brewed that day was no chilled - into cubes at around 90 degrees - so if at the brewing end of things I would be surprised if they had been able to survive such an environment.

Sparging temps was pretty much the same as always - around the 74-76 degree mark - again, not a problem I have come across with other brews using this process.

One thing I could put it down to as a possibility was a water addition of 40ml (to 40l) of Calcium Chloride (stock solution of 100g packet of CaCl2 to 540ml of water) which should have resulted in a profile of 50 ppm Ca2+ and 90 ppm Cl (the water was also pre-filtered). However, I have done the same with another beer recently and sampling that on the weekend, again I couldn't detect anything.

My share of the wort that Manticle fermented is about a week behind his (just finishing primary). I took a hydro sample yesterday and couldn't detect anything in there - but it is potentially a bit early in the process anyway. Supra-Jim also has some of this wort... but the lazy bugger hasn't fermented his yet, so we can't yet do a three-way comparison to help Manticle out.

Hopefully this helps out with some of the "brewing process" questions that have been thrown up.

Cheers,

Brendo


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## reviled (10/8/09)

THrow some brett in and leave it for a year, it might be savable!!


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## HoppingMad (10/8/09)

manticle said:


> Yes, I was under the impression it was used for cleaning, not sanitation.



Spot on. I'm suggesting you ditch the met and use percarb for cleaning. Plenty of info (and DJR agrees), that met is substandard.
Your choice though - just a variable that could go wrong for you.

That said I'm still scratching my head as to how you could get an infection after using bleach/vinegar. Might be the environment as BC suggests - or some gunk caught in a tap/fermenter rim where your sanitation couldn't go. A weird one.

Hopper.

Edit - Just read Brendo's post. Sounds like the cube is the culprit. But will be interesting to see the results of the beers from Brendo and Jim to see if they have the same issue. A 90 degree transfer should have killed the nasties dead. :huh:


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## Supra-Jim (10/8/09)

Oh God, now I've been totally outed as the lazy one!!!!! Thanks Brendo  

Must at all costs get this cube into a fermenter tonight!!!!!

Sanitation regime will get a double up just to make sure.

Not sure how tyhe water additions could impart the flavours described, though if anyone can explain how or why this might be the case, I love to listen (cos apparently i'm too lazy to get my arse into gear!)

Cheers SJ


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## brendo (10/8/09)

HoppingMad said:


> Edit - Just read Brendo's post. Sounds like the cube is the culprit. But will be interesting to see the results of the beers from Brendo and Jim to see if they have the same issue. A 90 degree transfer should have killed the nasties dead. :huh:



I guess the other issue there was that it was a brand new cube for Manticle - one of those 25l jerry cans - which are not as easy to expel the air out of as my preferred 20l cubes. The volumes were a bit low for the cubes since it was a 3 way split, so there could be some potential there for too much headspace (?)


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## brendo (10/8/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> Oh God, now I've been totally outed as the lazy one!!!!! Thanks Brendo
> 
> Must at all costs get this cube into a fermenter tonight!!!!!
> 
> ...



You are welcome SJ... sometimes shame is the best weapon to get someone moving.

On the water additions - not saying it is the culprit - just trying to put all the cards down on the table to help Manticle out.

Brendo


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## chappo1970 (10/8/09)

bconnery said:


> If you have a wild yeast infection then chances are it has come in from a source external to the equipment.
> If this is the case your choice of sanitiser makes absolutely sfa difference as the infection comes in during the brewing process.
> 
> I have issues with wild yeast infections at certain times of the year when the environment in which I brew becomes laden with various fruiting and flowering trees.
> ...


+1

I have suffered the same problem from Wild Yeast infections and follow bconnery's process to a tee. Since doing so I have been infection free for the last 3 beers (crossed fingers).


BTW Manticle it does not better or go away as other have already said trust me it just gets worse. I think the other thing is your mind is looking for it and if there is a hint you'll detect it. Throw it and live another day.

Cheers

Chappo


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## HoppingMad (10/8/09)

brendo said:


> I guess the other issue there was that it was a brand new cube for Manticle - one of those 25l jerry cans - which are not as easy to expel the air out of as my preferred 20l cubes. The volumes were a bit low for the cubes since it was a 3 way split, so there could be some potential there for too much headspace (?)



Weird. I have done no-chill batches and had spare wort so have added 5L to a second 20L cube without issue. Plenty of headspace (15L) in one of those. 

Thinking about it more, a new cube, properly sterilised and then with hot wort added like Mant's should not be the problem (provided the cube was tilted on its side to sterilise the inside of the lid once hot wort was put in and closed). 

Might lie closer to home with either his fermenter (an old one perhaps?) or his fermenting environment (ie. grubby fermenting fridge? Or airborne wild yeasties as BC suggests? :huh: ) Guess you'll get closer to the truth when yourself and Supra complete your ferments.

Cheers,

Hopper.


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## jayse (10/8/09)

brendo said:


> One thing I could put it down to as a possibility was a water addition of 40ml (to 40l) of Calcium Chloride (stock solution of 100g packet of CaCl2 to 540ml of water) which should have resulted in a profile of 50 ppm Ca2+ and 90 ppm Cl (the water was also pre-filtered). However, I have done the same with another beer recently and sampling that on the weekend, again I couldn't detect anything.






Supra-Jim said:


> Not sure how tyhe water additions could impart the flavours described, though if anyone can explain how or why this might be the case, I love to listen (cos apparently i'm too lazy to get my arse into gear!)



I don't think any brewing salt additions would play a part in whats happened to this beer.



brendo said:


> I guess the other issue there was that it was a brand new cube for Manticle - one of those 25l jerry cans - which are not as easy to expel the air out of as my preferred 20l cubes. The volumes were a bit low for the cubes since it was a 3 way split, so there could be some potential there for too much headspace (?)



This is looking more like it, whats happend to this wort after it was put in the cube and before fermentation.


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## Supra-Jim (10/8/09)

Could this flavour (?) have come from the 'new' cube?

I've heard a few people mentioning that a virgin cube can often impart plastic/undesirable flavours into the wort. A suggestion was to do a few cycles of boiling water in the cube prior to using it with wort.

Thoughts? I know the flavours manticle has suggested are quite typical of an infection, just attempting to think outsite the square (cube).

Cheers SJ


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## manticle (10/8/09)

A lot of the reading I've been doing about this medicinal flavour points the finger at bleach sanitisers. As mentioned the sodium met is mainly to drive away the chlorine - it is not the number one sanitiser.

When I first started using bleach and vinegar I was paranoid about chlorine residue so I was very certain of washing everything in hot water then using sod met. However, having had no trouble with chlorine flavours and getting a new vessel ready for brewing elsewhere, I reckon I may have been less paranoid and am now paying the price. It's even possible, in a rush the night before, that I rinsed with straight tap water (can't remember for sure)

I'd be very surprised if it was the brewing process or anything at Brendo's - obviously the two other fermented worts will put any doubts to rest.
My other two AG brews (first two) are tasting spot on at the minute so hopefully all is well within the walls of the brewery.

So - does anyone know that in the event these flavours are NOT due to wild yeast - will they increase, decrease or stay the same? Mainly out of interest and increasing my knowledge that I ask this. Even bad experiences help the learning process.

By the way - thanks to all for advice etc. Learning is what makes this forum a worthwhile place to visit. That and the fact that people give enough of a shit to try to help out.


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## pdilley (10/8/09)

You have some new gear setup?

Before you pop a santiser as the cause. Consider all the intricacies of cleaning.

Every single tap, valve, hose, interconnect everything I clean over like a fine toothed comb. I'm the one shoving cotton tips full of pure bleach up the end of the taps and doing a full dismantle of every connector and cleaning inside and out.

Its getting a bit OTT but never had a single infection or off flavour to date on any of the beers, be they K's or AG's.

One of the biggest contributors to infections is the taps on bottling buckets and fermenters. If you use the plastic ones, take a flat screwdriver and stick it up the tap. Then hold the tap and hit the screwdriver against a bench if sturdy or on the floor. Those plastic taps come apart into two. Now look at all that goo and gunk thats stuck in there and did not get cleaned "NO MATTER which santiser you use or switch to". Now clean it out thoroughly and then reassemble. They snap together fine. You wear them out a bit quicker this way but you will never have an infection from this vector ever again.

Ball valves or more difficult to clean but its the same problem of sugary wort getting in there and being buggars to get out. All these and any connection joint is an infection point.

Your manifold I don't have one so I don't have good cleaning advice for.



Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## jayse (10/8/09)

In the event it is not wild yeast...
No matter what caused it it will not really decrease, the phenols may have come from the raw materials but are below the taste threshold in the other two batchs but you may have the respective chlorophenols due to the chlorine which can have a quite considerably lower taste threshold.


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## manticle (10/8/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> You have some new gear setup?
> 
> Before you pop a santiser as the cause. Consider all the intricacies of cleaning.
> 
> ...



All good advice but this was brewed at somebody else's brewery by somebody else. I'm not blaming the sanitiser so much as suggesting my process of using it may have been faulty.

Recently I've started buying new taps for my fermenters as I'm yet to work out how to pop them in two (not throwing them away -I'll work out the mechanism and give them a good clean but new ones will do until I figure it out.). I know the build up you're talking about which is why I started buying the new ones. $2 is pretty cheap for extra sanitation.

As for ball valves - I actually have a straight garden tap rather than a ball valve on my tun so it's a bit easier/less parts to clean. Copper is anti-microbial so manifold should just be given a thorough rinse/clean then sanitised like everything else but I need to be careful with bleach contact (or so I hear) on the copper. Still not sure on this one - copper can be toxic but in very very high levels. Don't know if bleach contact for 2 mins will result in that.

I pull apart all my equipment after use and give it a soak, clean and then sanitise everything before use. Occassionally things get sanitised after cleaning then again before use.


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## manticle (10/8/09)

Cheers Jase.

If it is not an infection I'm guessing the levels will remain the same? It may seem silly to some but I did bottle these and if I can work out in a few weeks whether it's likely a wild yeast infection or a result of not rinsing chlorine properly it will help my future practices. My assumption is the wild yeast will increase over carbonation time and lead to overly fizzy, very medicinal tasting beer, whereas chlorephenols will remain at the level they currently are.


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## jayse (10/8/09)

manticle said:


> Cheers Jase.
> 
> If it is not an infection I'm guessing the levels will remain the same? It may seem silly to some but I did bottle these and if I can work out in a few weeks whether it's likely a wild yeast infection or a result of not rinsing chlorine properly it will help my future practices. My assumption is the wild yeast will increase over carbonation time and lead to overly fizzy, very medicinal tasting beer, whereas chlorephenols will remain at the level they currently are.




If it is a wild yeast infection I am not sure if it would carry on producing phenols now in beer being they are wort spoilage organisms not beer infections.
So in either case if it was wild yeast or chlorine I imagine the phenolic level will remain the same.


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## manticle (10/8/09)

Bugger. It would be good to isolate the cause, one way or another.


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## jayse (10/8/09)

manticle said:


> Bugger. It would be good to isolate the cause, one way or another.



Could be hard when wild yeast phenols can be medicinal but also chlorophenols derived from normal phenols in beer are medicinal.
I would however expect with wild yeast it would have some vegetal funk or some other aspect going on aswell.

So its gunna be down to the taste if it were wild yeast you'd expect more than just bandaid.


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## haysie (10/8/09)

:icon_offtopic: 
Did a maiden no chill y`day into one of the cubes I bought for lagering from one of the car places, Supercheap maybe, when they had a sale recently. 
Didnt get too get excited about the cleaning, a rinse with cold tap water, a steam up and then a 50ml soak of iodopfer.
Filled the thing with hot hot wort, its not even bloody airtight <_< , bulged out all over the joint, nearly popped the tap. Dangerous all this hot liquer in plastic vessels. Picked it up this morning to move it, all i can hear is air being drawn in. YUK YUK .Not to mention all the flowering fruit trees ATM. Geez, I have concerns for this brew when I dump it next weekend. 
We need a burns thread to go with the botulism thread. 
I :wub: my plate chiller


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## Thirsty Boy (10/8/09)

I would happily bet a dollar that you have no sort of infection, nor do you have an issue with wild yeast or chlorine in the sanitation process. I point my finger accusingly at the new cube.

They do - absolutely in my view - impart plastic flavours when they are new. I wouldn't even think about letting my wort touch a cube that hadn't been filled with boiling (or near) water, allowed to cool down and repeat till you cant taste plasitc in a blind triangle test.

When I did this with my first ever cube - my wife could pick the water that had been cooled in a cube (vs water cooled in glass) until the cube had been through three soak/cool cycles. In the 4th she couldn't really be sure. Then I did another one just to make sure.

The very first run of water cooled in the cube - was just plain nasty, with plastic phenolic type smells all over the place. If you handed me a glass of this water, I wouldn't drink it, I sure as shit wouldn't brew with it. If I had put beer into that cube first up - it would have been a drain pour AFAIAK

So I vote for your cube.

Is it empty now?? Do a blind triangle test on water you have cooled down in it vs water boiled and cooled down in glass. If you cant pick a difference, then maybe you have another issue.

Still, get rid of the sodium met and buy some starsan or iodophor though - sodium met is rubbish.

thirsty


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## haysie (10/8/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I would happily bet a dollar that you have no sort of infection, nor do you have an issue with wild yeast or chlorine in the sanitation process. I point my finger accusingly at the new cube.
> 
> They do - absolutely in my view - impart plastic flavours when they are new. I wouldn't even think about letting my wort touch a cube that hadn't been filled with boiling (or near) water, allowed to cool down and repeat till you cant taste plasitc in a blind triangle test.
> 
> ...



I tasted my water out of the new cube yesterday, It was ok.
Does every new fermenter have to go thru this tasting/testing/passing phase? I have bought many fermenters over the years and never did the boiling thing before using, Is there a difference between a fermenter and a cube? I would be shocked that everybody who has ever bought a coopers or a wanda or a houdini kit brewed a phenolic bandaid beer first up.


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## buttersd70 (10/8/09)

haysie said:


> Does every new fermenter have to go thru this tasting/testing/passing phase? I have bought many fermenters over the years and never did the boiling thing before using, Is there a difference between a fermenter and a cube? I would be shocked that everybody who has ever bought a coopers or a wanda or a houdini kit brewed a phenolic bandaid beer first up.



Yeah, but a fermenter (in normal use) doesn't get a dose of hot wort straight from a boiler....it's the heat that makes the difference.


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## haysie (10/8/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Yeah, but a fermenter (in normal use) doesn't get a dose of hot wort straight from a boiler....it's the heat that makes the difference.



Seems too easy a get out clause for the no chillers. London too a brick on versus Thirtys dollar its yeast infection.

this seems too have all gone off topic, put my hand up. Debate the heat issue some other thread some other day, over n out!


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## Thirsty Boy (10/8/09)

haysie said:


> I tasted my water out of the new cube yesterday, It was ok.
> Does every new fermenter have to go thru this tasting/testing/passing phase? I have bought many fermenters over the years and never did the boiling thing before using, Is there a difference between a fermenter and a cube? I would be shocked that everybody who has ever bought a coopers or a wanda or a houdini kit brewed a phenolic bandaid beer first up.



Frequently fill your fermenters with boiling hot wort then??

Your cube might have tasted "ok" - Mine on the other hand, after multiple rounds (five taste per round to make it statistically kosher) of blind triangle taste testing by both myself and my wife, who has the best palate of anyone I know, showed very distinct off flavours in the water.

And I dont know about you, but I care a lot about the flavour of my beer, and indeed I do test my fermenters to see if they are flavour stable - cold water because thats what they will see - cold liquid. They usually are flavour stable, but I have given one a hot water/cool treatment just to be sure.

But its completely different anyway - boiling hot vs cool.

The cube might be perfectly stable straight up .. but in the three I have owned, none of them was.


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## bum (10/8/09)

TB, would you say that the cooling cycle is essential for prepping a new cube? Or would just repeated hot fills do?


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## Darren (10/8/09)

haysie said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> We need a burns thread to go with the botulism thread.
> I :wub: my plate chiller




I bought both of those points up (and the leaching of plastic flavour from essentially cold water cubes) but apparently it was just "trolling".

Cooling wort in a cube will suck in quite alot of air so spoilage organisms (wild yeast) would be my guess regarding the OP question.

You would need to leave quite a large whack of chlorine in a cube to reach taste threshold.

cheers

Darren


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## manticle (10/8/09)

Darren said:


> I bought both of those points up (and the leaching of plastic flavour from essentially cold water cubes) but apparently it was just "trolling".
> 
> Cooling wort in a cube will suck in quite alot of air so spoilage organisms (wild yeast) would be my guess regarding the OP question.
> 
> ...



You get accusations of trolling (and possibly wrongfully - I don't think you're a troll because trolls piss people off just for the hell of it) because you make negative comments without offering much more information.

I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say if you can expand beyond 'no chill is bad', 'biab is bad' etc which you rarely do.

I'm not having a go at you. My assumption (rightly or wrongly) is that you have a lot of brewing knowledge - I just don't often see you sharing it. I wouldn't be upset if you did though.

Cheers

Andrew

@TB: Thankyou for that. It's an interesting point.

I understand sodium met is at the bottom of preferred sanitisers list but as a follow up to chlorine/vinegar is it really so bad? Seems just like an extra step to me. Many experienced brewers report great success using bleach/vinegar solution so I can't imagine sod. met is going to make things less microbe resistant after application. lIke all things though I have no dramas with being wrong: helps me learn stuff.


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## Thirsty Boy (11/8/09)

sodium met is not in and of itself a bad thing. Its just not much good either. After you sanitise with the bleach/vinegar, I think you are right and sodium met solution as your "rinse" phase wouldn't have hurt anything.

My preference, and(I think) the generally accepted "best practice" sanitation technique is to use a no-rinse sanitiser, and fill/use the vessel while it is still wet with the sanitising solution. If the surface of your fermenter is still coated by actual sanitising solution when you fill it... then it must be sanitary. Any bugs that land on it will just die as they land, then its full of wort.

The bleach/vinegar solution is supposed to be used as a no-rinse. The theory is that by acidifying the bleach with vinegar, it becomes effective at a low enough dose, that any residual chlorine will not be enough to cause off flavours that are above the taste threshold. 

28ml of household bleach into 19L of water, followed by 28ml of white vinegar. DONT mix the bleach and vinegar directly or you will gas yourself.

Thats the ratio suggested by Charlie Tally from fivestar chemicals (makers of starsan and other food industry sanitisers) for use as an extremely effective no-rinse sanitiser. To confirm this, I personally discussed a bleach/vinegar no-rinse with Jon Herskovits from 5 star chemicals when I was next to him at one of the ANHC dinners last year. He says the same thing. One ounce to 5 gallons to one ounce. No rinsing required. 

Me, I primarily use starsan (I want the foam, it is re-usable and lasts for months and months). But I use iodophor every now and again just to keep the brewery bugs on their toes - and occasionally, the vinegar/bleach solution to really come out of left field.

The last thing that touches any of my equipment before it gets its beer/wort, and that will be seconds only before ... is something that is going to activley kill any bugs.


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## Thirsty Boy (11/8/09)

bum said:


> TB, would you say that the cooling cycle is essential for prepping a new cube? Or would just repeated hot fills do?



I suppose the hot would do the job ... but if you let it cool down in there, you also have time for stuff to happen. I figured I want the cubes to be flavour neutral when treated in exactly the same way they would be when they were exposed to real brewing. Filled with hot product, allowed to cool slowly. By letting them cool down, I could test them under as close to "real" conditions as I could and then taste the cooled water.

I may however be a little paranoid about this sort of stuff :unsure:


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## buttersd70 (11/8/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> One ounce to 5 gallons to one ounce.



Or for saving water, 1.5mL to a Litre. With 5mL syringes from the chemist, it's easy peasy. I usually make 2L at a time. 

edit: 1.5625 mL for all the pedants out there... :lol:


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## caleb (11/8/09)

Err... just to get back to basics here...

You say this was fermented somewhere else... do you mean it was mashed/boiled somewhere else and then you took a cube to ferment in your own equipment or was the whole thing done in someone elses fermenter, from which you bottled?

If, as I suspect, you took a cube then fermented it in your own gear, I really think the earlier advice about cleaning everything including TAPS is pertinent. You admit to not disassembling taps to clean them, just replacing them every so often... SO, I'll bet THIS batch was done in a fermenter which had previously been used, then "cleaned" without disassembling the tap. Voila! 99% chance that this is the culprit, and it is a wild yeast/bacteria infection from the gunk caught inside the tap.

I know... it's happened to me. Am I right?


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## Supra-Jim (11/8/09)

Ok, so thanks to a public naming and shaming from Brendo yesterday for being lazy  , I put this cube into a fermenter last night.

Just to be sure I paid extra attention to my sanitation regime.

Anyway, even though this is by no means a definitive result, the sample taken for a hydro reading tasted completely normal. No off flavours, jsut lovely sugary goodness of unfermented wort.

Will keep posted with results.

Cheers SJ


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## manticle (11/8/09)

Caleb said:


> Err... just to get back to basics here...
> 
> You say this was fermented somewhere else... do you mean it was mashed/boiled somewhere else and then you took a cube to ferment in your own equipment or was the whole thing done in someone elses fermenter, from which you bottled?
> 
> ...




Brewed elsewhere, fermented here and yes- that is a possibility.

Good sanitation advice is always pertinent even if I'm right about the cause being my rinsing.


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## manticle (12/8/09)

Well whatever the cause - whoever said chuck it was spot on. I just opened a bottle out of curiosity and it is disgusting. Imagine a child left their bandaid in a glass of burnt liquid rubber and made it look like tasty beer? They're hiding in the bushes laughing at me now. I managed about 3 small sips, each accompanied by a wince before I had to tip the bottle. I think my bottles deserve better.

I'll be keen to taste the other fermented beers from this batch - I'm pretty certain it's an issue my end rather than at the brewing end and the colour and original tastings from the fermenter were so promising so I'm keen to taste how it should be and have a crack at a version myself (recipe kindly supplied sans disinfectant flavour). I reckon the good version will be a great beer.

Thank christ my two virgin breaker all grain beers are tasting sweet.

Both cautious rinsing and hardcore tap cleaning are on the agenda for next brews.
Starsan to follow


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## bum (12/8/09)

manticle said:


> and made it look like tasty beer?



How inhuman!


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## Darren (12/8/09)

Manticle,

If I were you I would sanitise your cube/fermenter immediately. Dont wait until an hour or so before your next brew. Wild yeast is a tough bugger and will require a bit of extra attention to make sure it is not present in the next beer.

cheers

Darren


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## manticle (12/8/09)

Good advice and following tasting this horribleness, I have done both. The next few sanitation regimes are going to be triply rigorous.

Thankyou.


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## Supra-Jim (13/8/09)

Andrew sorry to hear it is def. chuck worthy!!

However, once mine is on tap you are more than welcome to swing by for a glass or three (provided nothing goes wrong from here on!!)

Cheers SJ

h34r: Goes off to find some old bandaids and burn some rubber......... h34r:


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## brendo (13/8/09)

Bugger Andrew - sorry to hear it is that bad :0(

my portion will be packaged before I head away so we should have a get together when I get back in October and have a taste off between SJ's and mine.

Cheers

brendo


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## petesbrew (13/8/09)

Sadly they don't dissipate. 6 months later you're still left with a bandaid beer.
A real shame.


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## drtomc (13/8/09)

bum said:


> How inhuman!



Doesn't the Geneva Convention say something about this?

T.


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## Supra-Jim (13/8/09)

brendo said:


> we should have a get together when I get back in October and have a taste off between SJ's and mine.



 OCTOBER???? I reckon "The Burnt Rubber Band-aid Amber" (given the attention this brew has had, it needs a good name) will be hitting a keg sometime mid next week. How the hell is it supposed to last until October, esp if it isn't infected?

Cheers SJ

h34r: I maybe slack at getting the wort into the fermenter, but taking beer out of a keg is a completely different matter!!!


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## brendo (13/8/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> OCTOBER???? I reckon "The Burnt Rubber Band-aid Amber" (given the attention this brew has had, it needs a good name) will be hitting a keg sometime mid next week. How the hell is it supposed to last until October, esp if it isn't infected?
> 
> Cheers SJ
> 
> h34r: I maybe slack at getting the wort into the fermenter, but taking beer out of a keg is a completely different matter!!!



I thought that might get a nibble out of you mate  

Realistically, mine will be pretty much good to go this weekend - but will probably be bottling this lot, so by the time it has conditioned, I will be OS. That and I pretty much have no free time left between now and Sept 8 due to various family b'days and weddings coming up in the next few weeks.

So mate... you may have to show some restraint on this one and pop a bit aside. Big ask I know... but what are you going to do??

Brendo

BTW... pitched the TTL yet?? h34r:


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## Supra-Jim (13/8/09)

I'll be getting the TTL starting going once the fermenting fridge is clear of BRBA Amber (and all necessary equipment has been suitably decontaminated or destroyed!). Hence i reckon the TTL will be happily bubbling away (not that we rely on airlock bubbles h34r: ) by next weekend.

Maybe once it's gassed up, I'll bottle off a few BRBA Ambers and hide incase I completely fail at showing restraint!!

Cheers SJ


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## brendo (13/8/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> I'll be getting the TTL starting going once the fermenting fridge is clear of BRBA Amber (and all necessary equipment has been suitably decontaminated or destroyed!). Hence i reckon the TTL will be happily bubbling away (not that we rely on airlock bubbles h34r: ) by next weekend.
> 
> Maybe once it's gassed up, I'll bottle off a few BRBA Ambers and hide incase I completely fail at showing restraint!!
> 
> Cheers SJ



sounds like a plan to me mate... I am sure you can do it...


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## manticle (13/8/09)

brendo said:


> Bugger Andrew - sorry to hear it is that bad :0(
> 
> my portion will be packaged before I head away so we should have a get together when I get back in October and have a taste off between SJ's and mine.
> 
> ...



Cheers SJ and Brendo. I'll have to brew it again another time because the original fermenter tastes and smells were superb.

I guess lessons can be learned many ways. All fermenters will be very thorughly cleaned and sanitised as will the brewery/laundry and amazing caution will be exercised with any future use of bleach.

If it is a wild yeast I don't want really want to be tipping it in the garden and releasing more of the little bugger. Any suggestions from people who've had this trouble before?


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## manticle (21/8/09)

Quick update: I've kept a few aside and while refrigerating lessens the flavour, it's always present so the answer to my first question is no.

Fairly certain it's the chlorine residue rather than wild yeast - both other brews brewed in similar time frames (actually 3 as one is a blend) have absolutely no off flavours. I know that's not conclusive

My apologies must got to Brendo and Supra for stuffing up their brew.

Taps are now being broken apart each brew as well as new ones being picked up regularly and any chlorine is rinsed with near boiling water until I can get some starsan. I never want to drink a band-aid again (no not even in the local pool).


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## mb83 (24/8/09)

Hi there,

In response to the original question I can say that phenolic beers do mellow with age.
In may this year I brewed a Belgian Blonde that got very hot (30C) during primary. 
For the first month, even a mouthful would give me a splitting headache almost instantly. 
Now, a few months on, the beer has mellowed a lot, is much sweeter and fruitier and the phenols have subsided to a large degree.

Cheers,

Michael


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## WitWonder (24/8/09)

I recently brewed a heffeweizen and can say the wonderful banana it had shortly after kegging has now pretty much gone entirely. It's almost a different beer 

Campden tablets are supposed to aid stability are they not?


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## manticle (24/8/09)

mb83 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> In response to the original question I can say that phenolic beers do mellow with age.
> In may this year I brewed a Belgian Blonde that got very hot (30C) during primary.
> ...



Interesting. Maybe not throwing away a few bottles will be worth it.

@wit - aren't phenolics and esters different things?


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## Pete2501 (24/8/09)

:icon_offtopic: 

Phenolics are a part of the hydroxyl group and esters are a combination of an oxoacid and a hydroxyl. 
There's a list of different ester types here.


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## manticle (7/9/09)

Staying true to my rule of never chucking beer, I have about 6 of these left.

I cracked one tonight and while the phenolics are definitely present, they are also vastly reduced (that's unchilled too) and beneath them is quite a lovely beer that I'll have to brew again. Hints of toffee, good head retention and lacing and worth waiting a month or two for the other five.


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