# Cheapest adjunct



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Given, as homebrewers, we are either cheap, were cheap (and that's why we got into this hobby), or are assumed to be cheap, I thought I'd see how cheap we can be.

Rice is a great adjunct. I actually like it in some commercial varieties (Tsingtao white from Asian countries I love), and obviously they are used to cut costs (Japan's weird excise laws mean it's cheaper to use rice).

Some varieties even use it as mandatory, given the protein levels of American grains, for example. 

I have used rice to dilute flavour wise, some Ale malts. I made a Saison with 20% rice to mimic pilsener and loved the beer. I have limited space and having a sack of rarely used pils malt is an impost on said space.

All this leads to my topic, what is your cheapest adjunct? 

I paid $2.79 for 2kg of standard white rice. At $1.40 per kg, that's almost half the price of bulk Bb grain.


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## MHB

So your contention is that, if you are making a 25L batch using around 5kg of malt and use 20% adjunct (1kg of rice) at a saving of $1.40, that saving of $1.40 is more important than the quality of the beer and that's why we brew.

Sorry price has nothing to do with what and how I brew, the commercial beers I buy commonly start around $10/330mL bottle, call it $30/L, some are a lot more expensive than that, if I make a no holds bared clone of one of the top Belgian beers I might spend $45 on a batch ($1.8/L) or the equivalent of $750 worth of beer for $45
Brew for quality first, last and always - price is irrelevant.
Mark


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## scomet

Home made Invert Sugar costs less than $1/Kg, get your brewing process right and no one will know its in there....


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Grammar Nazi alert and OT alert:

Yourself is one word.

This is a topic on cheapest adjunct. In some beers adjuncts are a necessary part of the process, not a price driven thing. A number of American beers being the obvious example, as well as some Belgians viz invert sugar.

I thought I'd made that clear, my apologies if not. 

I'll make the best beer possible of course. And quality is tantamount. But if you have to use adjuncts, how cheap can it be? Bribie and I briefly discussed this regards polenta from supermarkets vs ethnic shops.


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## Stouter

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Grammar Nazi alert and OT alert:
> 
> Yourself is one word.


I think the space between was just a pause so you'd get the full dramatic effect of the delivery.
Bit strong, but he's obviously passionate about his brewing. This might be more "purist vs experimentalist" argument than anything?
Whenever money's mentioned people tend to get emotional, having said that I do enjoy a nice cold Tsingtao(*if that's all there is on offer).
If I had to go the cheap I would but for me ATM there's no reason to with all the variations available to me. Fortunately I'm not on the bones of my arse enough to consider rice.


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## Danscraftbeer

Cheapest and easiest would be cheap sugar wouldn't it? Rice still takes up as much space as grain and you still have to mash using $$$'s worth of energy etc.
I'm a little confused, never tried rice. Does it get similar extract efficiency by weight? or more?


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## earle

Shouting works best one syllable at a time.

Anyway, on topic

White sugaz - can be as low as 90c/kg - can be used in some Belgian styles but invert or candi syrup may result in a better outcome
Weet Bix - about $2.80/kg - used some in an english ale once

Rice is not a bad adjunct in the right styles - it's not just about cheaper or lower quality


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## Dae Tripper

Speaking of rice and lagers, I am going to do mine again soon, as it was so yum and pleasing for myself and others. 
Currently in the fermenter is an Oktoberfest using Oktoberfest blend yeast and I plan to put a Munich Dunkel on that cake. Would it be worth putting the rice lager on that yeast or should I start again?


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## Phoney

MHB said:


> Brew for quality first, last and always - price is irrelevant.
> Mark



OK Mr Moneybags, what's the most expensive ajunct you've ever used?  Black truffles?

For me it's probably some of the fruit / berry beers I've made. A Pecan Porter used $40 worth of pecan nuts for a 20L brew.

As for cheapest; rolled oats. $1.20 for a 1kg pack. I regularly use up to 8% in porters and stouts.


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## mtb

For a good while I was using free air to introduce some exotic cardboard flavours in my beer. I've since moved onto paid adjuncts


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## Stouter

Tears of virgin mermaids?
Cheapest I've put in was raw sugar cane sugar from Coles for an Extra Stout.


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## technobabble66

MHB said:


> So your contention is that, if you are making a 25L batch using around 5kg of malt and use 20% adjunct (1kg of rice) at a saving of $1.40, that saving of $1.40 is more important than the quality of the beer and that's why we brew.
> 
> Sorry price has nothing to do with what and how I brew, the commercial beers I buy commonly start around $10/330mL bottle, call it $30/L, some are a lot more expensive than that, if I make a no holds bared clone of one of the top Belgian beers I might spend $45 on a batch ($1.8/L) or the equivalent of $750 worth of beer for $45
> Brew for quality first, last and always - price is irrelevant.
> Mark


Agree with your sentiments, Mark.

Fwiw, i'd be much the same as you, i certainly aren't trying to make cheap booze just to save cash on getting drunk.
However, (as per you) i'd definitely say i'm trying to be cheap in attempting to produce beers that commercially/normally cost ridiculous amounts, such as a Westy12 clone or a DIPA. Or pretty much every beer i make, in the sense that the retail equivalent is similarly ~$8-10/330mL. IMO, you virtually can't make decent attempts at particularly those former types of beers with cheap-arse ingredients, so you've got to spend a bit on ingredients. But i'm still trying to be cheap in a sense.
I'd also point out the LRG has done quite a few threads/posts for those of us trying to save cash at every turn. I've definitely benefitted from many of these. I prefer to save cash on gear where possible so long as i can do everything i need. To a lesser extent i'd use a few cheap ingredients if i think it's not going to compromise quality - like trying Viking Pale Ale malt for APAs, generic brand oats, etc. So i'd say there's definitely value in discussing any way to save cash, even if its just a few dollars at a time. And there's still quite a few brewers out there who are still keen to turn out at least an occasional cheap beer.

Back to topic,
Oats, FTW!

Oats are cheap.
Oats add great flavour.
Oats add great silky mouthfeel.
Oats improve head retention and help produce that tight creamy head.

So you should be asking yourself, "Why am i not using oats?"


EDIT: hey LRG, have you tried a Rice + Oats ale/lager?


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## mtb

Damnit techno, now I'm gonna have to use oats.


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## Mardoo

technobabble66 said:


> So you should be asking yourself, "Why am i not using oats?"


Because I sowed them all whilst being wild?


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## Camo6

MHB said:


> So your contention is that, if you are making a 25L batch using around 5kg of malt and use 20% adjunct (1kg of rice) at a saving of $1.40, that saving of $1.40 is more important than the quality of the beer and that's why we brew.
> 
> Sorry price has nothing to do with what and how I brew, the commercial beers I buy commonly start around $10/330mL bottle, call it $30/L, some are a lot more expensive than that, if I make a no holds bared clone of one of the top Belgian beers I might spend $45 on a batch ($1.8/L) or the equivalent of $750 worth of beer for $45
> Brew for quality first, last and always - price is irrelevant.
> Mark



Thank God for your extensive brewing knowledge mate.
Can't say I have much experience with adjuncts. Most of my brewing is pretty rudimentary. Keen to pick up some ideas though.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I'm not so skint to need rice from a $$ POV. But I do like a rager (I prefer Tsingtao draft white label over the green label we get here) on the odd occasion, some British beers and Irish Reds use some adjunct per BJCP guidelines, so I thought why not ask the question. 

There are some beers that it absolutely brings to the table what is mandatory to said style. Why pay $8 a kg for niigata rice when aldi brand does exactly the same thing style wise.

It wasn't a topic about how to make cheap booze, as IMO, when you get to that stage, you likely have a problem. Though I have seen alcoholics that only drink lagavulin too.

Good to see how much debate this has raised, there isn't too many stones left unturned on here anymore.

Having said that, maybe Mhb thinks I've sowed enough oats, hence his preference that I do it to myself.


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## MHB

Actually I have nothing at all against the appropriate use of adjuncts, one of the best home brews I have had in recent times (last couple of months) is Steve's version of a Pacific Ale, made with, both flaked Oats and Wheat. Close runner up would be another local brewers Saison with a fair wack of Flaked Barley.
What I object to is someone deciding that I am either tight, was tight or am perceived as tight. Not a decision someone else gets to make for me.
Couple of replies to above.
Yes if you were forced to use 6-row malt, you would want to dilute it, you cant to the best of my knowledge even buy it in Australia, no one imports it cos its crap.
Belgian Candi is an integral part of the flavour many Belgian beers and I believe necessary, you don't get the same effect from home made invert or cane sugar white or otherwise.
Mr Moneybags? at present I am unemployed (well highly underemployed) and living in poverty (technical term), doesn't mean I'm going to compromise on the quality of the beer I either drink or make. I don't need a beer (there is a technical term for those that do). Most expensive adjunct, well probably Dark Candi Syrup, in a Westy 12 clone, mind you I haven't seen Westy 12 retail cheaper than $45/330 ml so $135/L, makes a 25L batch $3,375, so I wasn't really to excited about the $20-30 worth of sugar syrup.
People skills - well ask me in a couple of days if I care, right now I'm culturing a fine little crop of viruses (complements of a house mate too sick to go to work on Friday) and don't give a rats what you think (subject to change).

Have a look at the threads running on AHB, compare the number that look at making better beer, verses the number on how tight you can pucker.
Tight arse brewers tend to stop brewing, brewers who brew for love of good beer and the brewing craft tend to keep brewing, its a shame that so many of the best, have given up posting or even moved to other fora. I have talked to a couple, consensus was they were just sick of the level of crap on AHB, an opinion I have quite a lot of sympathy with.
Mark


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## GrumpyPaul

Camo6 said:


> Thank God for your extensive brewing knowledge mate.
> .



Not the first time Ive thought that too....

But I do love the tech knowledge....


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## Bribie G

I regularly brew two types of beer that are poles apart - 5.2% UK All malt biscuity and caramel UK Extra Special Bitter with the usual suspects such as Challenger and Styrians. 

Or a light refreshing low hopped lager (or fake lager now that I've got San Diego Super Yeast back in store) done on domestic BB pale, about a quarter Vienna by gravity and a quarter white sugaz. 
Glorious. Nothing to do with price, I just love the way it actually tones down the malt to subtle as opposed to screaming "here's malt, woohoo" and allows the hops to really shine. 

Sort of like the difference between a freshly bathed gentleman wearing a subtle fragrance like Aramis as opposed to a sweaty teen who has just doused himself with Lynx. 






As for cheapest adjunct, I use Polenta or rice for the occasional cream ale and yes you can get it for about half base malt price.


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## Randai

I guess white sugar where appropriate has been my cheapest. I used it to up the gravity of a old ale I was making and wasn't keen on a thick beer, and not enough confidence that my system would mash fermentable enough to get a lower gravity. Since I don't actually brew too much that is higher gravity.

Which actually did exactly as I intended, it bumped the OG some what and also helped lower the gravity with the yeast I was using.

Though given Bribies and others comments on using rice or corn in a lager I am actually really tempted to give it a shot in the near future to have just a crisp clean beer on tap, sounds good for summer


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## Bribie G

With Melbourne No 1 hitting the decks, da sugaz will be all the go shortly in the Bronzed Brews community!

Confession, last year I got a bootleg sample of Melb from someone who would have to kill me, so will remain nameless and it produced excellent full bodied and very malty beers with a bloody alarming amount of raw sugaz.


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## Danscraftbeer

I'm sold too. Gotta give adjuncts a try now. When I progressed to all grain I somehow gave myself the rule of 4 ingredients.
Water, (All grain malt), Hops, yeast. Summer coming time to break out of that square. For session abilities. 

 < Admin. the session able smiley's drink is too dark.


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## droid

There is at least one guy in the US that won something like 3 years in a row for a Belgian that did not use candi-syrup. He may well be the only one.

Personally I believe there are things learned along the journeys road, even when the destination may seem pointless. It's almost always more revealing along the way than the experience of the final goal being realised.

I think we should promote conversations, if we can..


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## yurgy

made a stout with homegrown roasted sweet potato turned out good.


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## Randai

Bribie G said:


> With Melbourne No 1 hitting the decks, da sugaz will be all the go shortly in the Bronzed Brews community!
> 
> Confession, last year I got a bootleg sample of Melb from someone who would have to kill me, so will remain nameless and it produced excellent full bodied and very malty beers with a bloody alarming amount of raw sugaz.


Yeah I am thinking the whole 4 packets thing might have been a good idea, though I don't brew that much to get through it all in time for next year 

So with the yeast any notable flavours you remember?


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## mtb

MHB said:


> I have talked to a couple, consensus was they were just sick of the level of crap on AHB, an opinion I have quite a lot of sympathy with.
> Mark


I haven't seen this crap you speak of.. oh hold on..


MHB said:


> Quote edited.
> Mark


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## Danscraftbeer

Well the format may not be totally bug free but the spirit is still there.


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## Bribie G

It actually reminded me a lot of "old time" beers that were still around in the 1980s like Reschs DA and Tooths Old, quite grainy and not at all lagery.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

The idea of this thread is 'what can we learn' or at least 'what does xyz bring to the table '.

The cheapskate comment was that most of us started on the home brew bandwagon. 

Most of us stay because of the craft. You get some awesome beers at case swaps you never heard of except for brewers.


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## captain crumpet

Potato is like $1 kg at most. One im yet to try personally though. BYO just had an article on brewing with all sorts of vegetables, got me thinking of doing a carot cream ale or something


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## manticle

MHB said:


> So your contention is that, if you are making a 25L batch using around 5kg of malt and use 20% adjunct (1kg of rice) at a saving of $1.40, that saving of $1.40 is more important than the quality of the beer and that's why we brew.
> 
> Sorry price has nothing to do with what and how I brew, the commercial beers I buy commonly start around $10/330mL bottle, call it $30/L, some are a lot more expensive than that, if I make a no holds bared clone of one of the top Belgian beers I might spend $45 on a batch ($1.8/L) or the equivalent of $750 worth of beer for $45
> Brew for quality first, last and always - price is irrelevant.
> Mark


Price is irrelevant but being able to brew quality beer at a good price is something you're proud of? Me too but phrased oddly.

While I agree with the philosophy of quality over quantity (ingredients, time, process, etc), typing profanities in capitals is unnecessary and not in the spirit of
either the forum, nor this thread.

Say what you like about the quality of posting (and I might agree with a lot of what you say but signal/noise here is as much numbers as it is ratio -it's a big place) but you're still here and it's testament to how much respect the community has for you that you can write such things and remain.

Please, in future attempt to temper your temper.

Hope your virus gets better soon, may your beers all be rich and delicious.

Can't answer the OP though because the main adjunct I use is belgian syrup and that ain't cheap. Ocassionally white sugar or dex for a golden strong or tripel but commercial d2 only for the dark stuff. Far from rich - just what does the job the best.

Have used oats (mostly golden naked) but I only ever really look at purpose rather than price.


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## yum beer

[QUOTE="MHB, post: 1465712, member: 1550"
What I object to is someone deciding that I am either tight, was tight or am perceived as tight. Not a decision someone else gets to make for me.

No good objecting to the perception of who you are; by others. who have no knowledge of who or why you are.
Its is a very common belief that homebrewers are cheap pissheads....LRG was certainly not tainting any of us as cheap.

I hope you get better...and like I have done myself....don't let sick, cranky Mark play bad with the other kids.


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## MHB

Anyone starts a thread called "Cheapest Adjunct", opening sentence ends with "I thought I'd see how cheap we can be."
A thread discussing how to use adjunct, what beers it works in, pros and cons of different adjuncts... well you would get a very different response from me for one.
The way it is stated, saving around $1.50 on a 25L batch is the main point of the thread, which is in my opinion a really silly excuse for starting a thread, not to mention a really silly motivation to brew, What is the best adjunct? best way to use said adjunct? - nope - its all about price.
Ah CBA


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## Dae Tripper

MHB said:


> Anyone starts a thread called "Cheapest Adjunct", opening sentence ends with "I thought I'd see how cheap we can be."
> A thread discussing how to use adjunct, what beers it works in, pros and cons of different adjuncts... well you would get a very different response from me for one.
> The way it is stated, saving around $1.50 on a 25L batch is the main point of the thread, which is in my opinion a really silly excuse for starting a thread, not to mention a really silly motivation to brew, What is the best adjunct? best way to use said adjunct? - nope - its all about price.
> Ah CBA



Silly excuse to tell someone to f themselves.


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## captain crumpet

MHB said:


> that saving of $1.40 is more important than the quality of the beer and that's why we brew.
> 
> Mark





MHB said:


> Brew for quality first, last and always - price is irrelevant.
> 
> Mark





MHB said:


> "What I object to is someone deciding that I am either tight, was tight or am perceived as tight. Not a decision someone else gets to make for me."
> 
> Mark



Errr... and to add on top of the contradiction, no one incinuated that you were tight nor would anyone care if you were. Before you jump on a high horse realise not everyone lives the same privileged life you do. It was never suggested that piss was used as an adjunct, so i don't get this nonsensical 'quality' argument you are persisting with. Calm your farm.


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## klangers

To me, brewing is about producing a product I am passionate about on a system I engineered and built myself.

In my opinion, engineering is inextricably tied with cost. Thus, part of the challenge for me is about optimising quality at minimum cost. It's not cutting corners, it's good engineering.

Oats are pretty great, but the adjunct that's got me out of a few brew day disasters is dextrose so I always keep some handy.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Agree that glucose can be very useful, it also happens to be the cheapest adjunct available.... if you are large enough. 

This works a bit the way baseload power to ally smelters did: as long as you can guarantee that you'll take enough of it, the producers will just about give it away as it's a by-product of gluten production and the gluten is much more valuable.


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## Dave70

MHB said:


> So your contention is that, if you are making a 25L batch using around 5kg of malt and use 20% adjunct (1kg of rice) at a saving of $1.40, that saving of $1.40 is more important than the quality of the beer and that's why we brew.
> 
> Sorry price has nothing to do with what and how I brew, the commercial beers I buy commonly start around $10/330mL bottle, call it $30/L, some are a lot more expensive than that, if I make a no holds bared clone of one of the top Belgian beers I might spend $45 on a batch ($1.8/L) or the equivalent of $750 worth of beer for $45
> Brew for quality first, last and always - price is irrelevant.
> *Bum*


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Regardless of my poor choice of intro, this has still turned out to be a good discussion.

I had an oatmeal stout that probably (even according to the brewer) had too much oats. I returned him a porter that had no adjuncts, and I preferred it and so did he.

I used (because the Mrs got it on special) some really cheap brown rice. Made a fantastic beer, but took way too long to gelatinise. Cut costs, but really didn't meet the mandate, so it was shown the scrap heap.

Brewing is about problem solving without dropping quality, and cost becomes part of that (but not the only part). Throughout all my 'cheapo' threads, I've always put it as a problem solving exercise, not a 'I only want to make cheap beer' thread.

Heck, the fact that it's been often quoted that home brewing is "an expensive way to make cheap beer" - because once we all get brewing, we spend lots of money on non-ingredient based things.

Anyone who says that they either didn't start brewing as a cost-cutting exercise or continue it, in part, because it is will be very much in the minority. Even MHB made mention of a Belgian beer bought is $x/L more than what he makes. We all brew, in part, because it's cheaper than buying. The fact that it fills a creative need, need for stainless, hobby need or that we can make better than commercial quality beer is important, but I would hazard a guess that if it were more expensive than buying, then many of us would have either never attempted it, or wouldn't persist with it.

If I have a very small shed, and SWMBO is saying "no more sacks of grain", then my problem is, if I need a pilsner based (or partially based) beer, how do I engineer a result that's similar? I think I found one.

Same thing goes - do I want to buy a stout tap (this is pre-Interap Stout Taps), when I make maybe one stout a year at absolute most? Or will a $1 syringe, which gets used for other purposes, brewing or otherwise, do the trick.

A bit like my cheap build thread with the 2 pots on the stovetop and a bucket in bucket lauter. I moved states twice in 2 years, and was thinking I may again. Why shell out for stuff I have to get rid of, when I can repurpose.

Does the fact that I now own an urn and am doing classic textbook BIAB mean that I'm invalidated as a brewer, or as a backyard cost-cutting engineer? Or both? Does it make my thread invalid? My answer is - the number of brewers that have said that it helped them get a feel for AG before they shelled out for more expensive equipment is fairly decent evidence that there is a niche for 'cheap', without it being a 'cheap booze' issue.

AHB has always been a home of pushing the limits, ingenuity and experimentation. The day that is frowned on by the majority (and not the minority), is the day I leave.

Anywho, I didn't start this thread as a treatise on why cheap brewing is not a sign of poor quality or why one should have to defend their systems and procedures, if they stack up in light of evidence. But simply to say 'what adjuncts work for you and how much do you pay'.


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## Mardoo

I've become a real fan of golden syrup to lighten body in British style beers. Not the cheapest, but I'm convinced it adds to the aroma.


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## malt junkie

Dave, thats just mean.

ED: and we all know the most important and cheapest adjunct in every brew is love.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Mardoo said:


> I've become a real fan of golden syrup to lighten body in British style beers. Not the cheapest, but I'm convinced it adds to the aroma.



I used to love using brown sugar in darker beers that needed a thinner body.


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## Dave70

malt junkie said:


> Dave, thats just mean.
> 
> ED: and we all know the most important and *cheapest adjunct in every brew is love*.



Spot on.
Love is all you need.


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## Grott

Who dares to start a thread on "home brand and plain sugar, a cheap alternative"


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Grott said:


> Who dares to start a thread on "home brand and plain sugar, a cheap alternative"



What will _they_ be asked to do to themselves?


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## technobabble66

Mardoo said:


> I've become a real fan of golden syrup to lighten body in British style beers. Not the cheapest, but I'm convinced it adds to the aroma.



CSR golden syrup or Lyles Golden syrup?
They're 2 very different beasts. 

Fwiw, I did a taste comparison between the CSR GS and DarkCandi Amber Syrup (from the 2016 December Vic swap, http://www.darkcandi.com/am.html) and they're surprisingly similar. Definitely not the same, some elements are different; but still fairly similar.


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## Phoney

manticle said:


> Can't answer the OP though because the main adjunct I use is belgian syrup and that ain't cheap



$12 for a 500mL bottle aint cheap? How much of it do you use in a single brew?

OT, but there is a brewery in Chicago that makes a truffle infused pilsner. Retails for $120 for a long neck. They use Australian Black Truffles @ $2.50/g or $2500/kg. Which has me a little stumped. Now I've tried Australian truffles and truffles in France and Italy and the latter ones are way more fragrant/potent than Aussie truffles. Not to mention a heck of a lot cheaper. Italians pile it onto a 15 euro pasta. I would be happy to give it a crack at making a beer like this, but not for the price & quality of Aussie truffles.

https://concreteplayground.com/melb...n-truffle-beer-to-be-served-in-new-york-city/


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## wynnum1

Mardoo said:


> I've become a real fan of golden syrup to lighten body in British style beers. Not the cheapest, but I'm convinced it adds to the aroma.


Golden syrup is that invert sugar.


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## Mardoo

wynnum1 said:


> Golden syrup is that invert sugar.



Partially invert.


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## Mardoo

technobabble66 said:


> CSR golden syrup or Lyles Golden syrup?
> They're 2 very different beasts.
> 
> Fwiw, I did a taste comparison between the CSR GS and DarkCandi Amber Syrup (from the 2016 December Vic swap, http://www.darkcandi.com/am.html) and they're surprisingly similar. Definitely not the same, some elements are different; but still fairly similar.



I much prefer the Lyle's. If you can find the Bundaberg golden syrup it's far superior to the CSR, IMHO. Seems to be hard to find these days though.

EDIT: I have this project in the back of my mind to try making a Golden Syrup Wine.


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## Rocker1986

I prefer my beers to be all malt but I have thrown some raw sugar into a couple of English bitters which have turned out well. I suppose I could just get a similar effect by mashing lower. I'm curious to try some golden syrup in one though. Other than that I don't use adjuncts, it's all malted barley.


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## Grott

I'm have just put down a brew using, for the first time, a Swiss dry malt extract. (from Beerbelly in SA).
Anyone know much about this "Swiss" malt?


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## Phoney

Grott said:


> I'm have just put down a brew using, for the first time, a Swiss dry malt extract. (from Beerbelly in SA).
> Anyone know much about this "Swiss" malt?



It's the one that comes with holes in it, right?


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## RdeVjun

Rocker1986 said:


> I prefer my beers to be all malt but I have thrown some raw sugar into a couple of English bitters which have turned out well. I suppose I could just get a similar effect by mashing lower.


Originally, I thought much the same too but after much experimentation (FWIW, cubed TTL variant #80 yesterday) I've concluded its just not the same. The character is different and the sugar, around half a kilo in ~25L, has an important part to play in the flavour spectrum, palate sensation and other characteristics, much the way Bribie related above.

I'm amazed that the mere suggestion of adjunct pricing analysis even raised an eyebrow given the quantities used routinely both in amateur and commercial spheres. It is the individual's own choice, their own preference and expectation- cost is one factor, ease of integration and also inherent character are others, while each of us our own acceptable limits but as related above, achieving the objective without the adjunct has proved fruitless.

Completely disagree with the bollocking delivered to the OP. It was quite a shameful display really- expressing an opposing viewpoint within the amateur debating society is one thing but noxious abuse is another altogether and should not be tolerated in a mature forum.


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## Grott

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> What will _they_ be asked to do to themselves?



To "take a bex and have a good lie down" ( some young ones might not get this, ask mum and dad)


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## earle

Grott said:


> I'm have just put down a brew using, for the first time, a Swiss dry malt extract. (from Beerbelly in SA).
> Anyone know much about this "Swiss" malt?



I've heard it's very neutral


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## Rocker1986

RdeVjun said:


> Originally, I thought much the same too but after much experimentation (FWIW, cubed TTL variant #80 yesterday) I've concluded its just not the same. The character is different and the sugar, around half a kilo in ~25L, has an important part to play in the flavour spectrum, palate sensation and other characteristics, much the way Bribie related above.


That makes sense. I can't decide whether I like the recipe better with the sugar in it or just with more malt to make up those gravity points. I like both variants so I just brew it how I feel like it at the time. I will try one with some golden syrup too at some stage.


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## RdeVjun

Rocker1986 said:


> That makes sense. I can't decide whether I like the recipe better with the sugar in it or just with more malt to make up those gravity points. I like both variants so I just brew it how I feel like it at the time. I will try one with some golden syrup too at some stage.


Yes, WRT Golden Syrup, I'd do the same, by all means give it a whirl- I meant to note that earlier. AFAIK, its not cheap though!

On the character from both variants- an additional confounding layer of complexity is our occasional change in preference!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I was thinking Molasses in a Schwarzbier.

After I went a tad heavy on some RB in a Bitter and it's just not right.


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## warra48

After a number of reports objecting to some aspects in this thread, I've sanitised it with some minor editing, although LRG was quite happy to leave it as it was.

Let's keep the thread on topic on adjuncts, whether cheap arse or not.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

earle said:


> I've heard it's very neutral



I've heard it requires very precise mash step times.


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## MHB

Grott said:


> I'm have just put down a brew using, for the first time, a Swiss dry malt extract. (from Beerbelly in SA).
> Anyone know much about this "Swiss" malt?


This should answer any questions re the Swiss malt (Wanda)
Mark


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## Camo6

warra48 said:


> After a number of reports objecting to some aspects in this thread, I've sanitised it with some minor editing, although LRG was quite happy to leave it as it was.
> 
> Let's keep the thread on topic on adjuncts, whether cheap arse or not.


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## labels

I think the whole point of this thread is not necessarily make the cheapest beer with adjuncts but to reduce the cost of a beer with adjuncts without going stupid.In other words, using adjuncts to lower the cost without lowering a decent beer outcome and possibly even using adjuncts to explore new styles.

Sugar would be the cheapest but does thin out the beer a fair bit, However, most commercial Australian beer has sugar used in the recipe. I like rice but then I go out of my way to buy the best Thai Jasmine rice which imparts its own special flavour in light lagers


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## manticle

Phoney said:


> $12 for a 500mL bottle aint cheap? How much of it do you use in a single brew?



When I use it, I usually use close to 2 bottles, fed gradually to 20L of Belgian quad. Might use 1 in a dubbel. I don't consider $24 for the rough liquid equivalent of 1 kg sugar cheap but as mentioned, the cheapness or lack thereof is not really considered either. If it was a must ingredient in every single beer as opposed to a special annual brew that gets aged for 1-2 years, I might approach it differently.

Or not.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

labels said:


> Sugar would be the cheapest but does thin out the beer a fair bit, However, most commercial Australian beer has sugar used in the recipe. I like rice but then I go out of my way to buy the best Thai Jasmine rice which imparts its own special flavour in light lagers



I had a Tooheys New glass that my daughter broke the other day. Poured a good beer too, was most upset.

It said as the ingredients for their beer "malt, yeast, water, hops and cane sugar". Not saying Tooheys New is a great beer, but they think it adds enough to make it worth printing on a glass with some etched pic of can sugar.


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## Bribie G

I've been researching resistant starch .

Eating more resistant starch feeds healthy gut bacteria helping with weight loss, improved insulin resistance, colonic health, firmer erections, greater likelihood of winning Powerball etc.
Raw potato starch is apparently the magic bullet in supplying resistant starch, together with other methods like eating sushi rice and more legumes.
So I bought a pack of potato starch from a health food shop.




But on calling the company they said that the particular product isn't resistant as they use heat in the processing, making it just plain old starch.
I was going to bin it, but instead I'll use it tomorrow as an adjunct in an Irish Stout with a high diastatic base malt (BB). Irish and potato, can't go wrong. 

My stronger dry stouts tend to end up a bit FES -ish so hopefully the 'taters will dry it out nicely.

*Luck of the Irish*
Dry Stout

*Recipe Specs*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 22.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.800
Total Hops (g): 25.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (°P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 34.6 (EBC): 68.2
Bitterness (IBU): 38.8 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 74
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

*Grain Bill*
----------------
3.500 kg Base Barrett Burston Pilsener (72.92%)
0.500 kg Black Roasted Barley (10.42%)
0.400 kg Potato starch (8.33%)
0.400 kg Weyermann Vienna (8.33%)

*Hop Bill*
----------------
25.0 g Dr Rudi Pellet (12% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.1 g/L)

Single step Infusion at 66°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 21°C with WLP090 - San Diego Super Yeast


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


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## Grott

Bribie G said:


> firmer erections




Is this the real reason for your persistence to use?


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## Bribie G

I'll try it anyway and see how things firm up..


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## MHB

You will get excommunicated! That potato starch is like $9/kg, twice the price of the best malt on the market.
Hardly the "Cheapest adjunct"...
Mark


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Do you have to rub it on or just consume it?


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## technobabble66

Have you been listening to the hypnotic " 'Tater Song" again, Bribie?


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## Bribie G

Was going to bin it anyway, so for a one off...
Hey it just struck me that the middle footballer in my icon is the spitting image of Daniel Craig


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## Red Baron

Mardoo- you can still get Bundaberg Golden syrup at IGA. I'm with you in that it has a far superior flavour to the CSR stuff.

Adjuncts I've used in my brewing (and love for both the taste and science of it):
- Cane sugar by far the cheapest at approx 75c/kg. I used to use when I was a K&K brewer for the cheapness, but now use 10-15% in aussie lagers.
- Quick oats. When on sale, you can get these for $1.32/kg. You can't make an oatmeal stout without them.
- Rice. We buy the 5kg bags of Basmati rice when they're 1/2 price for cooking, so that works out to $1.60/kg. I love this in asian rice lagers, as do my non brewing friends that i've given it to.
- Polenta. Unfortunately I don't have access to a cheap supply and had to get it from a health food shop (thereby paying more than I did per kg for the malt.......). Mine worked out to be about $5.50/Kg, and I like the flavour in a Classic American Pilsner.

None of these beers were brewed for cheapness, but if I was asked to bring a keg of something to a party for people that just wanted "beer", i'd make a rice pilsner- 1kg Rice ($1.60), 4kg Pils ($12), 33g Saaz ($2.33), recycled yeast. 1x keg of beer, $16.


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## wynnum1

5kg bags of Basmati is $9 this week at Woolwoths .


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## good4whatAlesU

Used icing sugar once to bump up OG a couple points when nothing else was in the cupboard - the beer turned out great.


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## Mardoo

Red Baron said:


> Mardoo- you can still get Bundaberg Golden syrup at IGA. I'm with you in that it has a far superior flavour to the CSR stuff.


Thanks for that, and right back atcha  Just about half the price, but a bit easier to find. You'll find this polenta in the imported food section at Coles and Woolies. It's cheaper by a dollar at Coles


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## Red Baron

Thanks mate.


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## Bribie G

My _Luck of the Irish_ potato stout is in the mash right now. Will report. 

I noticed the local health shop was selling flaked barley so I bought a kilo, took it home, opened my spec malts bin and there was another kilo from CB. Boy am I going to be sick of stouts by Xmas.


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## Grott

Have used the flaked barley in milk stouts with great success. Stouts? I went mad and have near on 200 odd longnecks stored away, aged 3 to 5 years. ( milk stouts, chocolate, Guinness style, RIS, oatmeal, dark roasted Irish, oak barrel stout milk stout, and some others. Mostly BIAB) I've been 
" decanting" in to my 4l mini keg, just great.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Love your post RB and good to hear from you.

Good recipe, I like what rice brings to those lawnmower beers.


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## Bribie G

Wort is nice and clear - obviously good conversion - I chucked in some extra odds and packet ends that needed using up, and ended up using 500g of potato flour, preboil gravity is 1.055 so I'll bottle this lot, if I keg it I'll end up paralytic after a few pints.

RB, I know what you mean about "beer". For most BBQ goers in the past I've lovingly prepared a Vienna Lager or something and after a few comments such as "oh, that's different", someone arrives with a slab of VB and gets mobbed.
Nowadays they just get beer - more sugaz the better. And who in their right mind would waste more than 12g of Superpride or Dr Rudi in "beer".


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## Randai

Heh "beer" is the christmas keg for the family.


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## Grott

I noted in the background some cheap adjunct Judanero has been using in his brew.
( from Judanero's sale post )


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## n87

Grott said:


> View attachment 107157
> 
> I noted in the background some cheap adjunct Judanero has been using in his brew.
> ( from Judanero's sale post )



Really helps the spoon stand up in those stouts


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## manticle

It's for the two pot screamers


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## TidalPete

Bribie G said:


> ..
> Hey it just struck me that the middle footballer in my icon is the spitting image of Daniel Craig



WTF is Daniel Craig????
Can't be much chop if he's never played for Queensland or the Broncos. 


PS --- We need those old AHB emoticons back ASAP. The current sad & ragtag lot leave a lot to be desired.


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## Bribie G

Bond. James Bond.

One thing that has me intrigued, with using starch as adjunct I ended up with a higher OG than predicted by BrewMate and to get to that OG I had to crank up the efficiency "spin box" from 74% to 78%
So I'd assume that using grains there are losses which is why you don't get 100%, whereas with stuff like starch the whole thing gets converted so skews the results a bit.

My next experiment will be to whack in half a kilo of Coles wheaten "cornflour" into something like a Whale Ale and see how that goes mashed high for body rather than alco.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Bribie G said:


> My next experiment will be to whack in half a kilo of Coles wheaten "cornflour" into something like a Whale Ale and see how that goes mashed high for body rather than alco.



I'd love to see the results of this. 

I have researched using plain wheat flour, to see if a wit could be made with it, but struggled to find out anything, let alone a consensus.


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## technobabble66

^^ Fwiw, I've used some raw wheat in a beer. Once. But only because I discovered I don't really like wheat. 
I had something like 150g in a ~23L batch (SWPA clone, so mainly ale malt plus 20% wheat malt I'm guessing). 
The raw wheat seems to bring out a really distinct & "raw" wheaty flavour. 
In hindsight, would probably work very effectively in a Wit. 
Maybe PM RelaxedBrewer if this is what you're interested in. He's done it a few times and gave me the idea to try it. Damn him!

Edit: so given how strong the flavour impact seemed to be (with only 150g in ~5kg), raw wheat flour could be said to be one of the cheapest adjuncts in terms of flavour impact. 
If that was a flavour you wanted...

Oats FTW. 
Because they're not wheat [emoji57]


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## MHB

Bribie G said:


> Bond. James Bond.
> 
> One thing that has me intrigued, with using starch as adjunct I ended up with a higher OG than predicted by BrewMate and to get to that OG I had to crank up the efficiency "spin box" from 74% to 78%
> So I'd assume that using grains there are losses which is why you don't get 100%, whereas with stuff like starch the whole thing gets converted so skews the results a bit.
> 
> My next experiment will be to whack in half a kilo of Coles wheaten "cornflour" into something like a Whale Ale and see how that goes mashed high for body rather than alco.


What you have is starch, when we look at flour it also contains lots of cellulose, minerals, silicates, vitamins...
By buying refined starch you are paying someone to separate the constituents and just sell you the starch part, remember that starch is just long chains of glucose, should give nearly 100% yield.
Mark


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## Mardoo

Bribie G said:


> My next experiment will be to whack in half a kilo of Coles wheaten "cornflour" into something like a Whale Ale and see how that goes mashed high for body rather than alco.



Mmmmmm, hefecornflour! Gotta be tried


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## Bribie G

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I'd love to see the results of this.
> 
> I have researched using plain wheat flour, to see if a wit could be made with it, but struggled to find out anything, let alone a consensus.



Years ago someone on the forum who had worked at the old Coopers Leabrook brewery stated that brewers flour was used in the ales.

I've only used flour once and had the nearest thing to a set sparge that you can get with BIAB.


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## TidalPete

I’ve used a tablespoon of plain flour in a Wheatie with good results haze-wise.
Best mixed with a little water (to avoid lumps) before adding at 10 minutes.

Have also used 22% raw wheat\22% malted wheat in Wits but prefer a flaked wheat\malted wheat combo these days.
The raw wheat does give a pronounced “raw” wheat flavour as technobabble says & probably not to everybody’s taste but it does give a bit of Wallonian-style authenticity to the beer IMHO?


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## wynnum1

Some interesting information on starch 
The starches produced by the major crops vary considerably, with the starch grains ranging in size from around 5 μm to >100 μm, with rice starch having the finest and potato the largest. 
Wheat is unusual because of its bi-modal particle size


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Bribie G said:


> Years ago someone on the forum who had worked at the old Coopers Leabrook brewery stated that brewers flour was used in the ales.
> 
> I've only used flour once and had the nearest thing to a set sparge that you can get with BIAB.


Any news on potato starch? Effect on flavour, SG?


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## Bribie G

Thanks to the SDSY it's finished fermenting this morning (Pitched Saturday) and I'm intending to bottle it all on Saturday as I'll be heading up to Bribie middle of August and it will be my travelling beer. Will report. 
As mentioned, efficiency was a few points higher, wort tasted like stout and was very clear.


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## Bribie G

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Any news on potato starch? Effect on flavour, SG?


I haven't posted till now as I entered the stout as a sweet stout in the NSW comp and didn't want to telegraph my punches. haha.

It turned out quite sweet - in the sense that no way was it a dry stout, so I entered accordingly. Results were good - low to mid 30s, could have benefited from more complex malt and signs of maybe yeast stress - I'd guess the potato starch did dilute the malt somewhat and broke down in the mash to render sweeter complex sugars? Actually one of my more enjoyable stouts. I left a few bottles with a lady in Brisbane and she got totally legless on it and left messages on my voicemail that she probably regrets but I deleted them, being a gentleman.

Hey I just spotted, one of the judges was MHB and he did mention slight "vegetal" note. 
Well spotted... haha


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## MHB

A slight vegetal note is not necessarily a good thing in beer.
M


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## Bribie G

That's a commonly expressed oponion.


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## Bribie G

That's a commonly expressed oponion.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Common Vegetal?

Good feedback, BribieG and Mark.


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## koshari

Grott said:


> Who dares to start a thread on "home brand and plain sugar, a cheap alternative"


no need to start a thread when we have this one already, i actually grabbed a couple of cans of home brand draft and are interested to see how it goes as a base for a summer ale?


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## laxation

koshari said:


> no need to start a thread when we have this one already, i actually grabbed a couple of cans of home brand draft and are interested to see how it goes as a base for a summer ale?


It tastes... ehhhhhhhh. It got no thumbs up.

What have you done to me... i've fallen down the rabbit hole!
"Its a great cider but a bad beer"
Also the guy with the beard is somewhat shit at beer tasting


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## koshari

laxation said:


> It tastes... ehhhhhhhh. It got no thumbs up.
> 
> What have you done to me... i've fallen down the rabbit hole!
> "Its a great cider but a bad beer"
> Also the guy with the beard is somewhat shit at beer tasting


i will pimp it up with some aroma hops, prolly cascade. i would be pretty surprised if its terribly different to the coopers original draft can? then there is the yeast?


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