# Reverse osmosis system.



## wide eyed and legless (25/7/17)

How many brewers using reverse osmosis for their water, I am thinking of getting something off Alibaba, bit confusing with the amount of stages, 5,6 & 7 what is anyone else using?


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## homebrewnewb (25/7/17)

what volumes are you looking at? not sure on stages but i was keen to investigate a system too.


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## Crusty (25/7/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> How many brewers using reverse osmosis for their water, I am thinking of getting something off Alibaba, bit confusing with the amount of stages, 5,6 & 7 what is anyone else using?



I've got one that was initially used for my salt water coral tank where top up water had to have a zero tds reading. Mine is a RO/DI which is reverse osmosis with a deioniser. I dont think their really needed in a brewing situation unless your water is out of control with hardness or chlorine or you want a blank canvas of water. Mine strips out every mineral available so my water has a tds reading of zero. RO standard will allow some minerals to pass through giving you anywhere between 4-10 ppm of tds depending on your input source water. Using ez water calc or Bruin water for salt additions would be easier & cheaper.


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## Ash44 (25/7/17)

Never used reverse osmosis for brewing but I know a bit about RO systems.

The stages on these little domestic systems refer to the number of filters i.e. pre-filter, carbon filter, reverse osmosis is a 3 stage system. The RO itself is generally only a single stage so the total number of stages has no bearing on the salt concentration in the product water. Be careful of systems that have a mineral filter or alkaliser as one of the stages after the RO as this will add stuff back into the water (to stabalise it), which kind of defeats the purpose of using the RO in the first place. 

Hope this helps.


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## rude (25/7/17)

https://www.psifilters.com.au/rever...-020a-3-stage-reverse-osmosis-wall-mount-unit

I use this one but pretty sure it was cheaper than that but was Agee years ago now

Very happy with it now that I have paid for & used it


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## wide eyed and legless (25/7/17)

Thanks for all the replies, I do use Bruin water but I have noticed a lot of recipes where they call for RO water and in a way it does make sense to start with a blank canvas, but I am not really that sure I would get that much benefit from the RO system my beers are not so diverse and I do know exactly what to do to get my pH in range without using a pH meter.
But they are not that expensive, let's face it this is one hobby that saves you money though it could turn out to be a piece of kit that we need, but could get by without like so many things we pick up along the pathway of the homebrewer.

homebrewnewb, I will check out some of the systems and it makes it a lot easier knowing that we only need the 3 phase filter ones.


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## hotmelt (25/7/17)

Are there any petshops or aquarium shops nearby.You could try before you buy.I was in a petshop last weekend and they were selling 25lts of RO water for $5.Didn't seem too expensive compared to bottled water.


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## wobbly (25/7/17)

Whilst I don't have one as I currently use rain water however when I made inquires at psifilters as per Rude's link they were most helpful in giving free advise on what system I would need 

Wobbly


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## wide eyed and legless (25/7/17)

wobbly said:


> Whilst I don't have one as I currently use rain water however when I made inquires at psifilters as per Rude's link they were most helpful in giving free advise on what system I would need
> 
> Wobbly


Did you end up getting one wobbly?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (25/7/17)

I own a small high pressure RO system, built for doing R&D on some amelioration processes for wine.

I have not bothered using it for water in Melbourne or Beechworth, doesn't seem to be worth the effort.

Best fun thing I ever did with it was make several litres of 400% strawberry juice concentrate as part of a research project for a strawberry grower in Qld. That stuff was yum, I never tried using it in beer but it would make a really interesting addition to lambic or similar.


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## Camo6 (25/7/17)

I bought a cheap 3 stage RO system off ebay a few years ago when I built my rig. Paid about $120 from memory. 
One thing to watch for is the flow rate. It would take me most of the day to fill a 90l HLT and I would also lose a little less than 90l just in waste water even with our clean Melbourne water.
I did a bit of an experiment with a cheap PPM meter and found my Melbourne tap water ( going off memory so may be a bit off) was around 75ppm. Using the RO setup I had close to 0ppm ($15 meter mind you) and after bypassing the ro membrane and just using the two carbon filters I got about 5-15ppm with no waste water. So now I just use the two filters and only connect the ro membrane to fill a twenty litre cube for bulk starsan mixes from time to time.
Hmm, I better look for some replacement filters. I'll try and link the seller if I find it.


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## wobbly (25/7/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Did you end up getting one wobbly?



No - as I indicated I currently use 85% rain water and 15% tap water and then add salts according to Bru'n

Wobbly


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## Cervantes (25/7/17)

I have a small ebay version. It works (as far as I know) but is very slow. It will take all morning to fill a 20L Jerry Can. I use it as the tap water where I am is actually treated bore water and rubbish for brewing.


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## Judanero (25/7/17)

hotmelt said:


> Are there any petshops or aquarium shops nearby.You could try before you buy.I was in a petshop last weekend and they were selling 25lts of RO water for $5.Didn't seem too expensive compared to bottled water.



Where are you located mate? I've thought about it a few times (buying a RO filter setup) but if I could snag RO water at a price like that I think it would at least initially make a lot of sense in trying out specific profiles for the 7 or 8 house beers I've pretty much settled on.


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## Ash44 (25/7/17)

Camo6 said:


> One thing to watch for is the flow rate. It would take me most of the day to fill a 90l HLT and I would also lose a little less than 90l just in waste water even with our clean Melbourne water.



These things generally run in the 10 - 15 litre/hour range, so not fast. You can get larger ones that will do around 50 litre/hour but they get pretty pricey.

Also you're looking at a 1:1 ratio of product water to waste water (this will vary a bit based on a bunch of things like feed quality, temp, membrane fouling) so half of what you feed in goes to waste. It is worth noting that Australian drinking water is usually extremely high quality and you are only doubling the contaminants in the waste stream. You would have to test it to be sure but I would think there are plenty of places in Australia where the water from the tap is good enough that the waste water from these things would still meet, or go close to meeting the drinking water guidelines.


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## Camo6 (25/7/17)

Like I said, a little less than 90l waste after collecting 90l using Melbourne's water which is some of the cleanest in the country. But thanks for elaborating.


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## Ash44 (25/7/17)

Sorry. I design municipal/industrial scale membrane systems for a living can get carried away when I get the chance to talk about water treatment.


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## Mardoo (26/7/17)

Mate, expert input is the best. Crap on, water engineer!


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## moonhead (26/7/17)

Are there any places around where you can get your tap water analysed, so as to take into consideration if an RO system would be of any benefit?

I've often heard the Melbourne water, for example, has very little in the way of minerals to begin with, in comparison to other city water supplies around the world, so the benefits of an RO system in Melbourne are very little. But It would be good to be able to qualify that (and I suppose, have a good starting point for any water calcs).


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## fungrel (26/7/17)

I use 6 stage with alkalising filter. My system is good for when you need to make massively hoppy beers, load up on all the minerals that drive down pH and not have to add back hardness to hit decent mash pH. I got it from these guys who offer fantastic response times and their product is sound. 

As for whether there is a noticable quality difference in product between a dual stage and a 6 stage, that's a completely different topic for discussion.


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## wide eyed and legless (26/7/17)

Well I have got enough to chew over in those posts, I am not worried about the flow speed I had thought of doing what Dicko does and fill up a 60 litre FV overnight using a float valve to stop it. As I said I do use walter calcs now to adjust the pH and minerals but have been reading a few articles lately about RO water and recipes look so simple, but I may be trading one thing off for another.


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## Ash44 (26/7/17)

moonhead said:


> Are there any places around where you can get your tap water analysed, so as to take into consideration if an RO system would be of any benefit?



There used to be a bunch of small labs that would do this kind of thing but they've mainly been bought out by big labs and I don't think they would bother with one off samples anymore. You could try a local university, but your best bet is to go to whoever supplies the water to your house. They should have test results that give a good indication of what is coming out of your tap and this info is also usually on the council/water utility website.


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## hotmelt (26/7/17)

Judanero said:


> Where are you located mate? I've thought about it a few times (buying a RO filter setup) but if I could snag RO water at a price like that I think it would at least initially make a lot of sense in trying out specific profiles for the 7 or 8 house beers I've pretty much settled on.



Sydney.This was at Kellyville Pets, though there's no mention of it on their website that I can see.
https://www.kellyvillepets.com.au/pages/kellyville-pets


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## TheWiggman (26/7/17)

Correct me if I'm wrong Ash44 but I thought the biggest bearing on small domestic RO units was water pressure? Being that the higher the pressure the better the flow and less waste water.
I bought a unit from onlinebrewingsupplies a while ago that he no longer stocks. Definitely one of the best steps I've taken towards better beer, especially with regards to lagers. Each brew is consistent and there's no guessing about mineral content or chlorine levels. When I got it I put the RO water up for a taste test with my wife. I got her to try the RO water then tap water, and she said "you've added chlorine or something to this one, so what?" We drink water straight from our tap and to me tastes very clean. Whilst regular municipal tap water may not taste that bad, whatever you _can _taste in it is going to end up in the beer. Personally I'd rather the beer talk for itself.
I don't mix, blend or change anything between different beers. 100% RO water and salt additions as required.


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## Ash44 (26/7/17)

TheWiggman said:


> I thought the biggest bearing on small domestic RO units was water pressure?



Yes and no. You can drive more flow through the membrane and reduce waste by increasing pressure, providing the pump lets you. The real limiting factor on these things is surface area of the membrane. The membranes have a maximum flow per unit of surface area above which you risk damaging the membrane. These little 2.5" membranes in these units max out at around 15l/hr (lower flow ones just have less membrane in the same size cartridge), the higher flow units simply have more membranes in parallel as that gives more membrane surface area for more product flow but more waste as well. 
This is a very basic view, pressure and flow are a function of a heap of different things. As a general rule RO systems are pretty inflexible, without changing the number of membranes and pump size you will struggle to improve performance.


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## scomet (26/7/17)

G'Day Legless I got one of these from psi https://www.psifilters.com.au/42-re...reverse-osmosis-system-with-gauge-low-waste-1 One of the best moves I made in terms of making better beer, improvements by stages, I was targeting Chloramines which only a few of the RO membranes will get, ( the Chinese copies don't do the job neither does carbon alone) ring the guy and have a chat he is a top bloke. Our water is bad to disgusting and from what I can gather many water suppliers are going to chloramine as they do the job well especially in summer when the mains water temp goes up. I also got the TDS meter and the remineraliser so we can use the water in the house for drinking I wouldn't recommend drinking RO I built a manifold to switch outputs and it hangs on the laundry sorry brewery wall. Bruin water from Martin is good so is ezi water build your own water profiles hit the mash Ph every time, Make better beer; Happy Days Oh I get about 25 litres in two hours at 60psi mains pressure the RO units have a minimum mains operating pressure, chat to Peter (think thats his name) mine runs at 50% waste which goes in the pool.......


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## TheWiggman (26/7/17)

Ash44 said:


> As a general rule RO systems are pretty inflexible, without changing the number of membranes and pump size you will struggle to improve performance.


Which for the domestic user with be a function of mains pressure which barely changes. I've only got about 150 kPa at my joint so my single-membrane system takes a good 6h to fill 20 litres. If only I had the luxury of a jacking pump.


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## Camo6 (26/7/17)

Another benefit of living in the eastern burbs of Melbourne, aside from the quality of the water, is the pressure at which it is delivered.


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## rsmallri (2/8/17)

scomet said:


> I built a manifold to switch outputs and it hangs on the laundry


Do you have a photo of your manifold? I was thinking of getting an RO system. What I would like to do is put it under the kitchen sink and use the first two stages normally and then just reconnect the RO membrane when I am making beer.


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## wide eyed and legless (2/8/17)

The more I read what Gordon Strong has to say about using RO water the more inclined I am to get one, I was thinking of using it as well as the campden tablet, any waste I can use on the garden will look into those scomet.


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## scomet (2/8/17)

Here you go rsmallri this is my really simple system, from psi, hanging on the laundry wall it just runs from a connection inline to the washer, the manifold is only low pressure I wouldn't trust this manifold system if it was pressurised.

legless I looked at these systems long and hard and did the same reading and listening as yourself before I jumped in and tackled 'Water' our scheme water is so variable and now has chloramines so water reports mean nothing. Now I have a baseline, RO, and build from there. Am I happy with the results? Bloody A1+......


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## rsmallri (3/8/17)

Nice one mate. I just ordered a twin filter from those guys for drinking water for the kitchen, they look like they're good quality. Still on the fence about getting the RO system, mainly due to the fact that they say you need to run it at least once a week to keep the membrane clean but I would only need it every 3-4 weeks.


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## Lionman (4/8/17)

Nice RO rig mate, whats the damage for one of those?

I was having issues with chlorophenols (medical/band-aid like flavors) in a few early batches. I now use a carbon filter in conjunction with sodium metabisulfite (1/2 campden tablet per 25L) and haven't had any issues since.


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## scomet (4/8/17)

Hello Lionman

https://www.psifilters.com.au/laund...se-osmosis-system-with-gauge-low-waste-1.html

Here is the system I got from psi + I got the remineraliser + TDS meter it was $280 ++ I'm very happy with the system and the quality of the beer, It made a BIG difference. Our water in south WA is a mix of bore, dam and RO so water reports are meaningless and many of the water treatment plants are being upgraded, so chloramine is the 'go to' sanitiser. Our water here goes from ok to disgusting but its safe to drink when its 40c just not to make good beer with - Problem Solved - Happy Days....

ps I dont like sulphites, many folks can drink them ok, me, I get a busting headache same as msg....


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## wide eyed and legless (4/8/17)

Scomet, I expect yours is in continuous use, does it say anything in the manual about intermittent use, I would be in the same boat as rsmallri, I was burning the midnight oil last night trying to find out more about them. I have decided to get one of the filter sets for coming from the rainwater tank to the hydroponic system because they had one which neutralised the pH back up to 7 by adding some magnesium oxide to the water. But I couldn't find out much more about the RO system.


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## rude (4/8/17)

Heres mine
Dont know about the continuous use bit I just turn the valve to flush
after each use
Mounted it on a board so I can take it where ever I want


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## rude (4/8/17)

WEAL youre in Melbourne I wouldnt bother youre water is great for brewing


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## wide eyed and legless (4/8/17)

rude said:


> WEAL youre in Melbourne I wouldnt bother youre water is great for brewing


I have been reading and listening to Gordon Strong on brewing, he recommends that all brewers should at least try RO water, and yes Melbourne has got good water and I am used to the additions which I have to put into Cardinia water, I just want to see what difference it makes.

Contacted scomets link so hopefully find out more about them.


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## rude (4/8/17)

Borrow some or buy some water to try


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## scomet (5/8/17)

Hi Legless I read thro the instructions and it make no mention of intermittent use, I use mine every two to three weeks, controlled by production/consumption it says to flush the membrane for 30sec after each use or 10 minutes every month - I do both using the water to clean the Brau. Operating system pressure is 40 to 90 psi temp 2c to 40c ph 3 to 11. RO membrane life is 2 to 5 years. My TDS readings are ~ in 85 out 2ppm and are the same as when I got it, about 2 years now... Cheers, incidentally my last brew the tap water ph was 6.18 and the RO was 3.37, hit the mash ph everytime :-}


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## Lionman (7/8/17)

Can you fit the ChlorPlus 10 cart in the cheaper cheaper RO units?

Could I fit it in my normal 10 inch filter housing? (wont be RO obviously but still remove chloramine)

Looks like only the $280 unit filters chloramine but I think its just the different cart it uses.


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## Dilligaf (2/10/20)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have been reading and listening to Gordon Strong on brewing, he recommends that all brewers should at least try RO water, and yes Melbourne has got good water and I am used to the additions which I have to put into Cardinia water, I just want to see what difference it makes.
> 
> Contacted scomets link so hopefully find out more about them.



Hey WEAL Id be interested in the additions you use - our water profile is probably similar. Always looking at improvement


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## wide eyed and legless (3/10/20)

Dilligaf said:


> Hey WEAL Id be interested in the additions you use - our water profile is probably similar. Always looking at improvement


Usually between 2-4 grams of either, depending on what I am brewing and the profile. Usually just go for balanced.


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## kadmium (3/10/20)

While SE melb water is not the same as RO, I would say you can practically keep it at a blank slate. Last few averaged years gave me a fairly low dosage, next time on Brun water ill ad what I have input. Perhaps we could all share our base profiles and see how close we all are?


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