# RecipeDB - Better Red Than Dead



## Fatgodzilla

Better Red Than Dead  Ale - Irish Red Ale  All Grain               27 Votes        Brewer's Notes Mash at 67C for 60 minutes. Ferment at 18C. Do not use secondary - the yeast will need to clean up well after itself - you want a hint of diacetyl, not mobs of it. Suggest leave 3-5 days in fermenter after reaching FG.Recipe suggests IBUs of 26 and SRM 17 which varies slightly from calcualtion. OG 1.053 FG 1.016The article in Zymurgy also recommends a cool cellaring time before serving. I have not made this recipe (yet)    Malt & Fermentables    % KG Fermentable      3.2 kg Bairds Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt    1.4 kg Weyermann Munich I    0.28 kg Weyermann Carared    0.23 kg JWM Crystal 140    0.12 kg JWM Roasted Malt       Hops    Time Grams Variety Form AA      43 g Fuggles (Pellet, 4.5AA%, 45mins)    28 g Goldings, East Kent (Pellet, 5.0AA%, 15mins)       Yeast     100 ml Wyeast Labs 1084 - Irish Ale         23L Batch Size    Brew Details   Original Gravity 1.054 (calc)   Final Gravity 1.014 (calc)   Bitterness 26.7 IBU   Efficiency 75%   Alcohol 5.2%   Colour 38 EBC   Batch Size 23L     Fermentation   Primary 14 days   Conditioning 4 days


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## Bribie G

Erm ... no hops? Surely the hop shortage aint _that_ bad  

PS love that Carared, you'll have to have a pint of my American week after next.


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## chappo1970

BribieG said:


> Erm ... no hops? Surely the hop shortage aint _that_ bad
> 
> PS love that Carared, you'll have to have a pint of my American week after next.



You need glasses BribieG I can see 'em.

FG will have to get the run down on this one from ya when your up here at Sully's brew day. Been wanting to get a Red into bar stable for sometime now. Looks good BTW.

EDIT: Have you put this up so the Red Gods might seek some inspiration for the coming season? Bennett's not that good


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## Fatgodzilla

Chappo said:


> You need glasses BribieG I can see 'em.
> 
> FG will have to get the run down on this one from ya when your up here at Sully's brew day. Been wanting to get a Red into bar stable for sometime now. Looks good BTW.




I read about Schooey and others looking at Irish Reds this morning - as if by magic :lol: up comes the Zymurgy recipe.

What is here is far far less crystals than Schooey first thought. The article is a good one, asking for an upfront caramel flavour (but not cloying) initial hit and a dry finish from the roast malt finish.

I'll put one of these down before I head north on Friday - that will mean 14 days in the fermenter, which sounds okay to me.


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## Bribie G

Chappo said:


> You need glasses BribieG I can see 'em.



They weren't there at first and it also said IBU zero.

Can see them now, I Probably jumped in a bit quick while F/G was still doing some fine tuning B)

Edit: I'll pick your brains as well, I don't mind Kilkenny, even the frozen BUL version from Carlton and you don't see it around much any more.


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## Fatgodzilla

BribieG said:


> They weren't there at first and it also said IBU zero.
> 
> Can see them now, I Probably jumped in a bit quick while F/G was still doing some fine tuning B)
> 
> Edit: I'll pick your brains as well, I don't mind Kilkenny, even the frozen BUL version from Carlton and you don't see it around much any more.




I'll bring the said magazine up.


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## chappo1970

FGZ Be mashing this one friday night time permitting of course.


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## Fatgodzilla

Chappo said:


> FGZ Be mashing this one friday night time permitting of course.




Me too. We'll see how it goes.


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## Supra-Jim

This one does seem a tasty recipe indeed. Filed for future brewing me thinks!!!

:icon_cheers: SJ


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## chappo1970

Update: Ok I'm loving this recipe and I plan to do double of it this sometime this month. I would change nothing. 

I bottled the whole batch and for once drunk_chappo (loser <_< ) didn't stuff the carbonation up like he usually does. FatzG it really hits the spot mate and is a pleasant beer that's not pretensious or hard to drink, in fact it's too easy to drink. Good dry malty backbone, aroma is morish with malts, hints of caramel and has right amount of bittering to finish well on the palate. Head retention is great, lacing all the way to the bottom of the glass and the colour and clarity is awesome with a beautiful polished rudy red. This is going into Chappo's stable for sure. Thanks Fatz!

If your after an easy drinking Irish Red go for this one.


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## Fatgodzilla

Chappo said:


> Update: Ok I'm loving this recipe and I plan to do double of it this sometime this month. I would change nothing.
> 
> I bottled the whole batch and for once drunk_chappo (loser <_< ) didn't stuff the carbonation up like he usually does. FatzG it really hits the spot mate and is a pleasant beer that's not pretensious or hard to drink, in fact it's too easy to drink. Good dry malty backbone, aroma is morish with malts, hints of caramel and has right amount of bittering to finish well on the palate. Head retention is great, lacing all the way to the bottom of the glass and the colour and clarity is awesome with a beautiful polished rudy red. This is going into Chappo's stable for sure. Thanks Fatz!
> 
> If your after an easy drinking Irish Red go for this one.




Too kind. 

Finally did my side by side comparison with Kilkenney Red. NO COMPARISON !!!!!

The Kilkenney has a distinctive flavour, but I don't like how the widget/nitrogen drives off the carbonation. Tastes like flat crap after a while. The BRTD I made (slightly weaker than the posted recipe to take it to approx 3.7% ABV) has an initial harshness that I reckon more my fault with excesssive hoppiness, but soon settles into an easy drinking session beer (hence the 3.7%). You can tell the flavours bear similarity but the BRTD clearly is more malty, more flavour. Colourwise similiar.

So if you like the Kilkenney Irish flavour, the BRTD is a home brew "clone" that is a great deal better than its commercial cousin. 

I'd recommend it for you to try if you like this style of beer !


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## chappo1970

+1 FatzG
As previously discussed with you my good sir, it is a fine drop indeed and even if I have to say it myself stands very proudly up against a commercial version of this beer  . I am taking my version to BABBS tonight so it will iteresting what feedback I get from the lads.

Highly recommended recipe and once again onya FatzG for sharing mate  .

P.S. FatzG will try to get off may rather large ass and send ya said example et al Chappo.


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## Fatgodzilla

Chappo said:


> +1 FatzG
> As previously discussed with you my good sir, it is a fine drop indeed and even if I have to say it myself stands very proudly up against a commercial version of this beer  . I am taking my version to BABBS tonight so it will iteresting what feedback I get from the lads.
> 
> Highly recommended recipe and once again onya FatzG for sharing mate  .
> 
> P.S. FatzG will try to get off may rather large ass and send ya said example et al Chappo.




If they pan it you've never heard of me h34r:


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## chappo1970

If they love it was all me, if they pan it you guess it Fatz... h34r: :lol:


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## Supra-Jim

Seeing as though Chappo has somehow claimed dibs on the cans of Red Death he believed he saw in my beer fridge, I need to get brewing again. (Chappo drinking Red Death >> :icon_drunk: )

All of my ingredients for this brew have arrived (thanks Ross!) and brewing clearance has been granted for this Sunday morning from the Director of Home Affairs.

Bring on the Better Red That Dead Irish Ale.

If its good (and i'm sure it will be), Fatz will get the credit (with a little for me), if it's rubbish, then it's all Chappo's fault!  

:icon_cheers: SJ


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## chappo1970

FatzG h34r: ... Phew!! We're safe mate apparently all that tried Chappo's FatzG Red Death........ LOVE IT!

SJ WooHoo another convert to the "Red Death" I promise you'll love it mate! And I am sure you'll do it justice so my reputation will be safe h34r: .


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## chappo1970

How did ya go SJ? I see it's in the fermenter on your sig????


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## Supra-Jim

Good, it's airlocks bubbling away nicely (am i allowed to say that?? h34r: ). 

Can up a little a short on OG (due to early morning and extreme cold related brain fade.....) but should till turn out a nice little session beer.

:icon_cheers: SJ


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## chappo1970

Supra-Jim said:


> Good, it's airlocks bubbling away nicely (am i allowed to say that?? h34r: ).
> 
> Can up a little a short on OG (due to early morning and extreme cold related brain fade.....) but should till turn out a nice little session beer.



Good to hear. Do you remember what your OG was? Double or single batch? Great session beer BTW. Mine's all gone to the Beer Gods so i will have to get my finger out ASAP and replenish stocks.

(pssst! Gladwrap is da bomb SJ h34r: bloops bloops are hard to give up I miss mine singing to me  )

Chappo


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## Supra-Jim

My OG nudged over 1040, i think it was about 1042, so a little short on target. But if the beer drinks as good as you say (and it better!!!!!) no harm in brewing again gettting it right.

CHeers SJ


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## scott_penno

Hi there,

Well, I had a crack at this and followed the recipe to a 't' except that it was scaled down to 13L. Just tried it and it is quite a bit darker than expected and more brown than red. It also has more of a burnt/astringent flavor than I would have associated with an Irish Red Ale. If I was to have a guess I either have too much of the JW Roast Malt or the malt was a little more roasted than other batches. Is it me and my expectations that are the problem here or have I cocked something up? I'm considering decreasing the amount of JW Roast Malt and increasing the amount of CaraRed. Does this sound reasonable?

sap.


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## Supra-Jim

I have just started drink my keg of this. It's lovely stuff. It is dark in the glass (tending to brown) with nice red hues when held up to the light.

Sappas, this brew definitely has more roasty character than you'd expect, esp if your comparing to a killkenny (though i quite like the roasty taste). I think back in one of FGZ's earlier posts he mentioned that he would halve the Roast Malt next time round.
Cheers SJ


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## chappo1970

Supra-Jim said:


> I have just started drink my keg of this. It's lovely stuff. It is dark in the glass (tending to brown) with nice red hues when held up to the light.
> 
> Sappas, this brew definitely has more roasty character than you'd expect, esp if your comparing to a killkenny (though i quite like the roasty taste). I think back in one of FGZ's earlier posts he mentioned that he would halve the Roast Malt next time round.
> Cheers SJ



Actually I really like the roasty malts of this recipe and in previous off forum discussions with FatzG it is the lack of a malt backbone in Killkenny that detracks from it being a great beer, well that's entirely in my opinion that is and more personal tastes.
It would be interesting to do this recipe again and halve the roast malt but maybe add something else to drive the malt backbone? Caraamber or maybe even Special B?

Chappo


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## Supra-Jim

It's a subtle roastyness, but definitely there and definitely very nice. I will be brewing this again, and i will be using the same amount of roast malt.

Cheers SJ


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## Fatgodzilla

Supra-Jim said:


> It's a subtle roastyness, but definitely there and definitely very nice. I will be brewing this again, and i will be using the same amount of roast malt.
> 
> Cheers SJ




I've just done another batch with minor addition of melanoidin malt for extra malt crunch. Also using US 05 rather than the Irish Ale to see what the impact will be. Will keep you advised.

The small amount of dark malt is really for the colour I reckon - yes it should add a minor flavour burst but i reckon the carared / caraaroma adds the real backbone. The yeast should emphahsis the maltiness (which may bugger my US 05 experiment) but I have my favourite Whitelabs Edinburgh Yeast in storage for the next effort.

Good to see a few blokes playing with the style.


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## jsan

Fatgodzilla said:


> I've just done another batch with minor addition of melanoidin malt for extra malt crunch. Also using US 05 rather than the Irish Ale to see what the impact will be. Will keep you advised.
> 
> The small amount of dark malt is really for the colour I reckon - yes it should add a minor flavour burst but i reckon the carared / caraaroma adds the real backbone. The yeast should emphahsis the maltiness (which may bugger my US 05 experiment) but I have my favourite Whitelabs Edinburgh Yeast in storage for the next effort.
> 
> Good to see a few blokes playing with the style.




Drinking this one now brewed using Edinburgh Ale Yeast. so malty and surprisingly creamy compared to other red ales i have attempted. This is definately the best beer i've produced so far!


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## Fatgodzilla

James.s said:


> Drinking this one now brewed using Edinburgh Ale Yeast. so malty and surprisingly creamy compared to other red ales i have attempted. This is definately the best beer i've produced so far!



The two scottish yeasts (Wyeast Scottish & Whitelabs Edinburgh) are great yeasts that really emphasise the malt - given this was the purpose in a hopless land ! I made a number of ales last year using the yeasts in a number of styles including a dark wheat beer which case swappers enjoyed. I thought when I posted the recipe that a scottish yeast would be better than the irish in these recipes so got one in stock. 

My first BRTD had a creamy head that lasted all the way to the end. Visually appealing ! That was the Irish yeast. 

Wish I had some left now !


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## scott_penno

OK. This has had a few weeks of conditioning and has fully carb'd up now. Beautiful drop. I'd forget my previous comments re roast malt and leave it exactly as it is in the recipe...

sap.


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## Fatgodzilla

sappas said:


> OK. This has had a few weeks of conditioning and has fully carb'd up now. Beautiful drop. I'd forget my previous comments re roast malt and leave it exactly as it is in the recipe...
> 
> sap.





Good stuff sap ! I've all but emptied a keg and am carbing my US 05 version for the weekend.

I've another batch in the fermenter with the Edinburgh yeast and I subbed the roast barley for Carafa II (dehusked so no dark malt bite) and upped the melanoiden. For the record, I think this beer should be left for a little while to "mature" - like you found, I reckon they taste better (different) after a few weeks than green from the fermenter.

Good to see another satisfied brewer !


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## chappo1970

I'll be putting another double of this down tomorrow morning whilst on Holidays. Gunna keg one batch and bottle the rest.

Thinking about adding some biscuit? Thoughts?


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## Fatgodzilla

Chappo said:


> I'll be putting another double of this down tomorrow morning whilst on Holidays. Gunna keg one batch and bottle the rest.
> 
> Thinking about adding some biscuit? Thoughts?




Never really used "biscuity" malt which as I know it may be good in english browns but more belgian style. Wouldn't think of it, but why not ! I like a malty profile, hence the additional melanoiden. But got to be careful I don't overdo it - don't want a cloying mess !


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## Fatgodzilla

Fatgodzilla said:


> I've just done another batch with minor addition of melanoidin malt for extra malt crunch. Also using US 05 rather than the Irish Ale to see what the impact will be. Will keep you advised.
> 
> The small amount of dark malt is really for the colour I reckon - yes it should add a minor flavour burst but i reckon the carared / caraaroma adds the real backbone. The yeast should emphahsis the maltiness (which may bugger my US 05 experiment) but I have my favourite Whitelabs Edinburgh Yeast in storage for the next effort.
> 
> Good to see a few blokes playing with the style.





917 Better Red Than Dead 3 
Irish Red Ale 


Type: All Grain
Date: 16/05/2005 
Batch Size: 21.00 L
Brewer: Fatgodzilla
Boil Size: 24.61 L Asst Brewer: Brandy The Dingo.
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: 50 litre keg (boiler) and Esky (mash tun)
Taste Rating(out of 50):40 Brewhouse Efficiency: no effin' idea.
Taste Notes: Interestingly great.

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.20 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 55.94 % 
1.40 kg Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 24.48 % 
0.40 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (30.0 SRM) Grain 6.99 % 
0.30 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.24 % 
0.30 kg Carared (Weyermann) (24.0 SRM) Grain 5.24 % 
0.12 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (710.0 SRM) Grain 2.10 % 
60.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.10 %] (40 min) Hops 23.5 IBU 
1.10 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
2 Pkgs US 05 (Fermentis) Yeast-Ale 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.055 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.013 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.06 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.48 % 
Bitterness: 23.5 IBU Calories: 518 cal/l 
Est Color: 23.1 SRM Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 5.72 kg 
Sparge Water: 16.38 L Grain Temperature: 22.2 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 22.2 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
45 min Mash In Add 14.90 L of water at 77.4 C 70.0 C 



Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time). 
Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: kegged
Pressure/Weight: 119.0 gm Carbonation Used: - no effin idea.
Keg: 4 C Age for: 16.0 days 
Secondary Storage Temperature: 15c to 17c 

Notes

To Secondary (water container) 30 May. 3 bottled at same time.(#917 on cap). Did not fridge the secondary.
Kegged 5 June.


Just tasted this effort. Fantastic ! Beautiful aroma. Taste not as "malty" as previous efforts - the US 05's influence. Fairly clean taste - again what I would attribute to the yeast. Easily drinkable. You probably wouldn't label this an "Irish Red" but along the lines of Screwy's favourite description "This is not an Irish Red - its' a red ale !" On first impressions - a great session beer. Will bring a few neighbours in to try and see what they think.


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## manticle

Tried a bottle of Sap's recently.

Mighty tasty. I may have to keep this in mind for a future brew (might be a partial version depending).


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## Fatgodzilla

manticle said:


> Tried a bottle of Sap's recently.
> 
> Mighty tasty. I may have to keep this in mind for a future brew (might be a partial version depending).




Just be careful of the bitterness if using a can of goo, but I reckon the use of the carared/crystal/dark malt should be okay with a kit beer to get a reasonable drop. See how you go .. I've been impressed so far with the results .. will bottle all the next efforts for later in the year (time for some wheaties !)


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## manticle

Fatgodzilla said:


> Just be careful of the bitterness if using a can of goo, but I reckon the use of the carared/crystal/dark malt should be okay with a kit beer to get a reasonable drop. See how you go .. I've been impressed so far with the results .. will bottle all the next efforts for later in the year (time for some wheaties !)



At most I would be using unhopped liquid extract or Dried extract. My brews are moving closer to AG all the time, with extract there more as a back up as I'm still muddling along.


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## Fatgodzilla

manticle said:


> At most I would be using unhopped liquid extract or Dried extract. My brews are moving closer to AG all the time, with extract there more as a back up as I'm still muddling along.




That case it will be a piss easy thing to go. Go for it !


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## elec

I'm having a crack at this one as my AG #3. Copied the recipe apart from the yeast. Would it be feasible to use S-04 ( on hand ), or would I f*ck it up by not using 1084?. The liquid yeast I have to fly in, and is a minimum 2 day trip. The last one ( with ice bricks ) arrived just cool, and I'm not sure whether to go down this road again.

Any suggestions would be appreciated, and if S-04 will be shit, then I'll fly in the proper yeast.

Regards


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## manticle

Fatgodzilla said:


> That case it will be a piss easy thing to go. Go for it !



No need for extract now. Will be doing the recipe as is sometime in 2009.


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## scott_penno

Elec, give it a go using S04. If it doesnt, turn out as you expect you can try 1084 next time.

sap



elec said:


> I'm having a crack at this one as my AG #3. Copied the recipe apart from the yeast. Would it be feasible to use S-04 ( on hand ), or would I f*ck it up by not using 1084?. The liquid yeast I have to fly in, and is a minimum 2 day trip. The last one ( with ice bricks ) arrived just cool, and I'm not sure whether to go down this road again.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated, and if S-04 will be shit, then I'll fly in the proper yeast.
> 
> Regards


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## chappo1970

Still a house favourite at Chappo Manor. FatzG thought I might tweak a little bit more from the original?

Recipe: Better Red Than Dead V3
Brewer: Trent Chapman
Asst Brewer: FatzG Look a like DeeJay tha Dog  
Style: Irish Red Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 21.00 L 
Boil Size: 27.02 L
Estimated OG: 1.059 SG
Estimated Color: 32.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 21.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.20 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (4.0 EBC)Grain 56.34 % 
1.30 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (7.0 EBC) Grain 22.89 % 
0.90 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (50.0 EBC) Grain 15.85 % 
0.20 kg Carared (43.0 EBC) Grain 3.52 % 
0.08 kg Carafa II (1150.0 EBC) Grain 1.41 % 
28.30 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.70 %] (90 min) (FiHops 17.2 IBU 
9.00 gm Fuggles [4.50 %] (45 min) Hops 4.1 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Double Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 5.68 kg
----------------------------
Double Infusion, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
30 min Protein Rest Add 10.58 L of water at 55.7 C 50.0 C 
60 min Saccrification Add 9.52 L of water at 92.1 C 68.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 8.99 L of water at 99.3 C 77.0 C 


If I can get to CB's today this goes down tonight.

Cheers

Chappo


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## Fatgodzilla

Chappo said:


> Still a house favourite at Chappo Manor. FatzG thought I might tweak a little bit more from the original?




Like the look of it TC. Throw a few into bottles and keep aside for November .. reckon a few months rest will be good for that critter !


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## chappo1970

I'll save 3 from this latest batch and 3 three from batch #3 for ya Fatz! 

I found she takes a bit of conditioning to come good. The problem usually is that's about 5 pints away from the keg blowing.

Still loving this recipe FatzG it's a cracker!

Cheers

Chappo


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## manticle

Soon to place a grain/yeast/hops order with this recipe in mind. Tried the monteith's celtic the other day and it reminded me of the time I tried this. My lady love was also impressed with the Monteith's so I suggested I could make something for her in the same ballpark.


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## manticle

Just pitched my yeast. Date was August 09 so the swelling was almost immediate and I had krausen on my starter within hours.

Wort tastes lovely. I had to replace the marris otter pale ale with JW ale malt so I hope that doesn't make a msasive difference. I also got a touch more wort than expected (pots are tiny so I often do a second boil) and mashed one degree hotter (still working out heat loss in my tun). I may have to wing adding slightly more hops in the second boil (recipe additions done in the first lot) but otherwise the recipe was followed very closely.


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## manticle

Probably needs another week of conditioning but damn this is a lovely beer.

Malty and rich, nice creamy, lasting head, slight hint of bitter at the back of the palate.


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## chappo1970

manticle said:


> Probably needs another week of conditioning but damn this is a lovely beer.
> 
> Malty and rich, nice creamy, lasting head, slight hint of bitter at the back of the palate.



It's a cracker huh? Knew this recipe would be right up your alley! Glad to here it was a success. Can't wait to see what you think of it after it done some time in the bottle.

Chap Chap


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## manticle

Definitely on the 'will be brewed again' list.


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## lespaul

manticle said:


> Soon to place a grain/yeast/hops order with this recipe in mind. Tried the monteith's celtic the other day and it reminded me of the time I tried this. My lady love was also impressed with the Monteith's so I suggested I could make something for her in the same ballpark.



Just about to get into drinking this, but i was wondering if anyone else can recommend a beer that i can buy to compare it to?
Cheers


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## Fatgodzilla

lespaul said:


> Just about to get into drinking this, but i was wondering if anyone else can recommend a beer that i can buy to compare it to?
> Cheers




No, found nothing commercial that is easily available. I was looking for a good red ale after expressing my disappointment in Kilkenny - found the cans with the widgets looked good in the glass and loved the creamy head, but otherwise was a flat tasting brew (does the same to Guinness - love that stuff without the nitrogen) 

Buy a Kilkenny can. In my side by side comparisons, I could tell these brews were distant cousins but the HB was clearly a better drinking brew. More body and the mild carbonation added to the mouth. If your Kilkenny tastes better than your HB, you haven't brewed it right !


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## manticle

Monteith's celtic red is the closest but this recipe stands above it by head and shoulders.

I like kilkenny but way less dimension than this brew (or the monteith's)


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## MeLoveBeer

No Irish Red I've found has the complexity of this brew... if anything its managed to turn me off Kilkenny and other beers brewed to style (they're very bland and boring compared to this).


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## Lecterfan

Hia ll,

I've got my first version of this on the go at the moment, I am going to rack later this week and pitch some slurry into another brew of this type.

I was thinking for the next one:

3kgs ale malt (JWM)
1.5kg Munich
250gms Melanoiden
250gms crystal
60gms roast

Fuggles for 45, Goldings for 15 all to total 26IBU.

Whaddayazrekonabout melanoiden in there?

Ta.


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## manticle

I've not used melanoiden in anything (if needed I decoct for that characteristic) but if you look back a page or so, you'll see Fatz has used it in some of his versions.


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## Lecterfan

Well spotted...thanks Manticle. I have read the topic, but only skimmed it again today. Should have used the search function I guess. Interesting to see that he has also swapped the munich for vienna. I was keen to try some melanoiden as the LHBS has got some in and I thought I'd grab some to see how it goes. I have neither the spare stovetop space or patience for a decoction attempt at my infantile AG stages. Mostly I like to say the word melanoiden. It sounds like something that you have removed in a day procedure.


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## Fatgodzilla

Lecterfan said:


> Well spotted...thanks Manticle. I have read the topic, but only skimmed it again today. Should have used the search function I guess. Interesting to see that he has also swapped the munich for vienna. I was keen to try some melanoiden as the LHBS has got some in and I thought I'd grab some to see how it goes. I have neither the spare stovetop space or patience for a decoction attempt at my infantile AG stages. Mostly I like to say the word melanoiden. It sounds like something that you have removed in a day procedure.




The original recipe for this beer was lifted from Zymurgy and a number of blokes have brewed it with some success. Various experimentations with the recipe has seen people make good variations of the original. It seems that the basic (original) recipe is quite simple and relatively bulletproof, but by tweaking with different special malts the brewer can achieve outcomes that suits their particular palate. 

250g of melanoidan is not excessive - I've used 400g. But I also had about 7kg of melanoidan on hand back then so I was happy to chuck it in a lot of brews I was making then. It does add some red hues and I like a strong malty dominance in this style of beer. But I will say again, use an appropriate yeast. The US-05 was not the best choice. I'll get a scottish / irish liquid yeast soon as I want to make a few of these red ales this year for case swaps and competition.


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## Lecterfan

Well I've tasted both versions (the first being true to the recipe, the second using melanoiden)...

...and I can't really comment yet! The first is 4 weeks in the bottle, very nice initial taste, slightly too much alc warmth and I think in part this is due to me fermenting it out a bit too warm (wyeast 1084 is the only yeast I've ever had stall on me so maybe I was a touch over-cautious when using it again). Also I used beersmith at %65 to formulate the recipe but failed to take into account that I am gaining a bit of experience and my OG (in the fermenter) for this one was 1.059...finished at 1.014.

The second version tastes much cleaner but it is only 2 weeks in the bottle so is still a bit undercarbed...it went from 1.052 - 1.012.

Guess I'll just have to keep brewing!!!

(there is a photo of the first version in the "what's in the glass" thread).

Cheers!


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## big78sam

I will be brewing this soon and am debating a yeast selection. I don't have Irish Ale yeast but I do have 1187 Ringwood and 1469 west Yorkshire. My LHBS also has most dried yeasts but not liquid yeasts. There have been some less than glowing reports about us05. My options are

1 - use 1187 or 1469 and ferment low as I'd image fruity esters aren't what you want with this beer. 
2 - use a dry yeast (maybe Nottingham?).
3 - make a special trip to G&G for WY1084 (I plan to get 1084 at some point and if options 1 and 2 above won't do the job I could just leave it in the cube until I get the chance to go to G&G.)

Any thoughts?


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## big78sam

Bump...


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## MeLoveBeer

Any english ale yeast should be okay, but definately stick with the 1084 if you can get your hands on it (its worth it).


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## Lecterfan

A little update on this recipe as I've had quite a lot of it sitting around since being bottled in December. I've mostly been drinking APA's and as such this has had time to mellow right out.

I enjoyed both versions of the recipe, but the second version (with melanoiden etc) served at a close-to-ambient temp through a hand pump/beer engine was beautiful. The fuggles and EKG floral/herby spicness was coming through nicely.

In future I will carb this a bit lower and use the "pocket sparkler" trick (until I can pick up a hand pump of my own). My only feedback is that the colour of the original recipe is a touch too dark for my liking...I'll probably drop the roast and carared back a touch and increase the bitterness to maybe 32ish IBUs. 

Cheers.


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## Fatgodzilla

Lecterfan said:


> A little update on this recipe as I've had quite a lot of it sitting around since being bottled in December. I've mostly been drinking APA's and as such this has had time to mellow right out.
> 
> I enjoyed both versions of the recipe, but the second version (with melanoiden etc) served at a close-to-ambient temp through a hand pump/beer engine was beautiful. The fuggles and EKG floral/herby spicness was coming through nicely.
> 
> In future I will carb this a bit lower and use the "pocket sparkler" trick (until I can pick up a hand pump of my own). My only feedback is that the colour of the original recipe is a touch too dark for my liking...I'll probably drop the roast and carared back a touch and increase the bitterness to maybe 32ish IBUs.
> 
> Cheers.




About to revive this favourite for this winter's drinking. Probably use you your recipe LF but use carared in place of your crystal (what grade was that?). Have no Munich so will use Vienna again. If I have enough / right grain, may even try to do an "original" recipe.



> big78sam Posted Jan 19 2011, 01:05 PM
> I will be brewing this soon and am debating a yeast selection. I don't have Irish Ale yeast but I do have 1187 Ringwood and 1469 west Yorkshire.



Interested how this would go with a different yeast. I have 1469 in the fridge so might split a brew and use this yeast in a sise by side capacity.


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## big78sam

Fatgodzilla said:


> Interested how this would go with a different yeast. I have 1469 in the fridge so might split a brew and use this yeast in a sise by side capacity.



In the end I went with the Irish Ale and after 2 weeks in the bottle I've opened a couple of sneaky testers. It's fantastic. I'd be interested to see what the difference is as I'll be brewing this again! Let us know the results if you go ahead with this.

As a side point, I carbed mine to 2.3 volumes and I think it hasn't quite finished carbonating yet in the cool condition it's stored in. What have others found is ideal?


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## Bribie G

I'm doing a similar IR as my next batch - ordering some RB for the comps season this week - however may I suggest that for a "to type" Irish Red a single hop addition works very well - I always use around 30g of Admiral. I'm going to do a batch with Willamette as a tryout. 
And definitely the Caraaroma, lashings of it :icon_cheers:


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## davewaldo

Sounds good Bribie, care to share a bit more info? I'm trying to put together an IR recipe as we speak.


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## Bribie G

My IR from last year follows. However I am going tweak it a fair bit this time round: put in some RB for that bit of roasty aftertaste, also I'm going to swap the Polenta for some Munich and drop the Carapils to 200 then put in 200 of flaked wheat to get more complexity and a creamier head:

4000 Golden Promise
333 carapils
250 polenta
300 Caraaroma
150 Carared

30 Admiral 60 mins
Wyeast Irish Ale


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## Fatgodzilla

big78sam said:


> In the end I went with the Irish Ale and after 2 weeks in the bottle I've opened a couple of sneaky testers. It's fantastic. I'd be interested to see what the difference is as I'll be brewing this again! Let us know the results if you go ahead with this.
> 
> As a side point, I carbed mine to 2.3 volumes and I think it hasn't quite finished carbonating yet in the cool condition it's stored in. What have others found is ideal?




I'm lousy on advice about carbonating, as I naturally carb all my kegs with a whack of sugar (very scientific I know). When beer engining (sic ?) 1 carb low (lower than 2.3) and use without a sparkler. If bottling, half a teaspoon of sugar for a low carb. Drink this not too cold, so less carbing needed.



> 4000 Golden Promise
> 333 carapils
> 250 polenta
> 300 Caraaroma
> 150 Carared



If it's got corn it's one of those Boston Irish Red :icon_cheers:

bELOW IS WHAT A DARK IRISH LOOKS LIKE.


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## bear09

HI All,

I put this one down last night. Followed the recipe to a tee but ended up with 25L at 1059! I got bloody 86% efficiency - rarely do I go that high. My average is usually 78-82%.

Anyhow it all looked great.

One query, this beer did not look red as I transferred it down into the fermenter. It just looked to be a nice brown color. Stupid question - is an Irish Red a brown colored beer?

Looking forward to this one anyhow.


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## Fatgodzilla

bear09 said:


> HI All,
> 
> I put this one down last night. Followed the recipe to a tee but ended up with 25L at 1059! I got bloody 86% efficiency - rarely do I go that high. My average is usually 78-82%.
> 
> Anyhow it all looked great.
> 
> One query, this beer did not look red as I transferred it down into the fermenter. It just looked to be a nice brown color. Stupid question - is an Irish Red a brown colored beer?
> 
> Looking forward to this one anyhow.




Sounds good. You'll never get a red beer unless you add food colouring. Tried most grainy things to get "red" but failed.What you are aiming for is, when held up to the light (in a glass) the beer looks more reddish than brown. 

Try it when carbed, you'll get what I mean.


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## bear09

Fatgodzilla said:


> Sounds good. You'll never get a red beer unless you add food colouring. Tried most grainy things to get "red" but failed.What you are aiming for is, when held up to the light (in a glass) the beer looks more reddish than brown.
> 
> Try it when carbed, you'll get what I mean.




Will do then - thanks.

Ill post a pic as well (when that wonderful day arrives :icon_chickcheers: )


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## bear09

Fatgodzilla said:


> Sounds good. You'll never get a red beer unless you add food colouring. Tried most grainy things to get "red" but failed.What you are aiming for is, when held up to the light (in a glass) the beer looks more reddish than brown.
> 
> Try it when carbed, you'll get what I mean.




Will do then - thanks.

Ill post a pic as well (when that wonderful day arrives :icon_chickcheers: )


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## bear09

WTF? Why did my post come up twice?

Am I drunk? :icon_cheers:


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## jkmeldrum

bear09 said:


> WTF? Why did my post come up twice?
> 
> Am I drunk? :icon_cheers:


Crissed as a picket I'd say!!


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## big78sam

I made this beer exactly to the recipe DB (other than a bit too much water) and I thought it was a bit "weak". it was my fault for miscalculating. However, I entered it into a smallish beer competition in Bendigo a couple of weeks ago and it took out the people's choice award (about 50 people came along and everyone got to try a small sample and rate each of the 26 beers out of 10). It's certainly a crowd pleaser. 

I think next time I'll use the same amount or grain but only brew to 20 litres rather than the 25 I accidently did.


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## Gar

Really looking forward to giving this one a go on the weekend, I've substituted the roasted malt for pale chocolate malt though.

:kooi:


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## Hammo7

I'm about to put this one down, only to realize I don't have any EKG left :angry: 
I Have plenty of Northern Brewer, Czech Saaz, southern Cross and tettnang left. ( have a heap of others like cascade, citra, amarillo and galaxy that I doubt would fit the bill)!
What would be the best substitute, if any?

Thanks in advance!


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## manticle

Northern brewer or wait and get some EKG.


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## Hammo7

Thanks Manticle.

Northern Brewer it is!

Cant put myself to buying EKG as mine will be ready in a couple of weeks!


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## big78sam

This really does improve in the keg. I brewed one 5 or 6 months ago and it's brilliant now. Interestingly I got a green apple flavour (acetaldehyde?) when I first kegged it but it disappeared after a month or 2 (fermented at 19 to 20 using Wyeast 1084).

EDIT: I also did a blind side by side with Kilkenny when a few of my family were around, one of whom says Kilkenny is his favourite beer. I didn’t tell them what they were drinking . Everyone preferred the Better Red Than Dead to Kilkenny.


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## Thefatdoghead

This is one of the first beer's I made over a year ago and loved every drop. I'll be doing it again in a few weeks but changing the crystal with Carared. Just wondering if 1469 went down well FGZ?? I see you might have used it in your last post. I'll probably end up getting some 1084 anyway.

Gav


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## seamad

Gav, got a similiar version of this on tap atm and used 1469, happy with the result.cheers
sean


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## Gar

It's a great beer isn't it, I've still got a couple of bottles left from august and its aging beautifully.

10,000% better than Killkenny


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## Thefatdoghead

seamad said:


> Gav, got a similiar version of this on tap atm and used 1469, happy with the result.cheers
> sean


Seamad what did the 1469 ferment out to and what was your mash temp? 

Cheers


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## Thefatdoghead

Bumpedy


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## seamad

Replied to pm but here it is if anyone interested
OG 1040 FG 1010
Mash in @55/10:66/75;76/10
Fermented @17
NOT exact copy of recipe but reasoably similiar.
Love the malty profile from 1469. Just kegged a ipa that was pitched onto yeastcake of the irish red ...blooxy good​


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## Thefatdoghead

seamad said:


> Replied to pm but here it is if anyone interested
> OG 1040 FG 1010
> Mash in @55/10:66/75;76/10
> Fermented @17
> NOT exact copy of recipe but reasoably similiar.
> Love the malty profile from 1469. Just kegged a ipa that was pitched onto yeastcake of the irish red ...blooxy good​


Cheers for that mate. I might just try the 1469 see how she goes!


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## Fatgodzilla

Gav80 said:


> This is one of the first beer's I made over a year ago and loved every drop. I'll be doing it again in a few weeks but changing the crystal with Carared. Just wondering if 1469 went down well FGZ?? I see you might have used it in your last post. I'll probably end up getting some 1084 anyway.
> 
> Gav




Sorry for delay Gav. Unfortunately haven't been as good as my word and made a BRTD yet. Still confident that with the specs of the yeast, it should be good. (but then there are quite a few yeasts that also would be suitable for this style).


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## Thefatdoghead

Fatgodzilla said:


> Sorry for delay Gav. Unfortunately haven't been as good as my word and made a BRTD yet. Still confident that with the specs of the yeast, it should be good. (but then there are quite a few yeasts that also would be suitable for this style).


No problem mate I might get some irish ale in the end see how I go.

Cheers


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## Fatgodzilla

Gav80 said:


> No problem mate I might get some irish ale in the end see how I go.
> 
> Cheers




I've used Wyeast Irish, Scottish & German ales with similiar results (all pretty much the same yeast on the wyeast chart) and White Labs Edinburgh - all good results (cos I also fiddled around with the recipe - and I think a safale. Not as good, but good enough. Only result I didn't like was US-05.

Go the irish and use it for a few other brews too - its a great yeast for malt orientated flavoured beer. Only thing I say about it is all brews I've done needed a healthy rest time in the kegs or bottles - no good for an eight day grain to brain effort. More like 8 weeks and a few 8 months efforts tasted very nice.


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## Thefatdoghead

Fatgodzilla said:


> I've used Wyeast Irish, Scottish & German ales with similiar results (all pretty much the same yeast on the wyeast chart) and White Labs Edinburgh - all good results (cos I also fiddled around with the recipe - and I think a safale. Not as good, but good enough. Only result I didn't like was US-05.
> 
> Go the irish and use it for a few other brews too - its a great yeast for malt orientated flavoured beer. Only thing I say about it is all brews I've done needed a healthy rest time in the kegs or bottles - no good for an eight day grain to brain effort. More like 8 weeks and a few 8 months efforts tasted very nice.


A nice hearty Irish Red for winter it is then. I'll have to knock out 50L in that case! I do absolutely love this beer and im sure I won't have any trouble getting through a double batch :beerbang:


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## seamad

If doing a double could try half with 1084 and half with 1469?


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## Xarb

My old man loves Kilkenny so I thought I'd make him a similar styled beer for his bday. 

I made a beer based off this recipe but with a few small changes: I changed the hops to a single addition and I used slightly different grains based on what my LHBS had available. 

Fermentables
Golden Promise Malt 61.86% 3.00 Kg
Munich I 26.80% 1.30 Kg
Caraamber 5.15% 0.25 Kg
Crystal 140 4.12% 0.20 Kg
Roasted Barley 2.06% 0.10 Kg

East Kent Golding 4.7% 40g Boil 60 mins

It has only been in the bottle for a week but I couldn't resist having a cheeky sample and it is already a beauty! It is like Kilkenny but way better, richer and a bit more complex with an amazing aftertaste. Now I want to keep them all for myself! ha ha


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## QldKev

How come the 15min hop addition has been dropped from all the latest recipes?

Although it is a malt driven beer, I though it still would need the later addition?


QldKev


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## Bribie G

I see this thread has come up again, just as I'm going to do an IR for the BABBs minicomp in April, so I was reading the BJCP guide only this morning.

I'll probably just use something fairly neutral as the bitterer, Magnum or even Galena but just the one addition to around 25 IBU.

I'm surprised that more recipes don't use Caraaroma - it's redder than Bob Brown and gives that required caramel toffee flavour. 

As with last year's effort, some RB as well to give the roast in the finish and I reckon it will be spot on :beerbang: 

I've found with single addition brews, a fair amount of hop flavour still makes it through to the finish and some hops such as Saaz

you wouldn't believe there was only a bittering addition (My Vienna Lager last year)

Irish Red:

Aroma: Low to moderate malt aroma, generally caramel-like
but occasionally toasty or toffee-like in nature. May have a
light buttery character (although this is not required). Hop
aroma is low to none (usually not present). Quite clean.
Appearance: Amber to deep reddish copper color (most examples
have a deep reddish hue). Clear. Low off-white to tan
colored head.
Flavor: Moderate caramel malt flavor and sweetness, occasionally
with a buttered toast or toffee-like quality. Finishes
with a light taste of roasted grain, which lends a characteristic
dryness to the finish. Generally no flavor hops, although some
examples may have a light English hop flavor. Medium-low
hop bitterness, although light use of roasted grains may increase
the perception of bitterness to the medium range.
Medium-dry to dry finish. Clean and smooth (lager versions
can be very smooth). No esters.
Mouthfeel: Medium-light to medium body, although examples
containing low levels of diacetyl may have a slightly slick
mouthfeel. Moderate carbonation. Smooth. Moderately attenuated
(more so than Scottish ales). May have a slight alcohol
warmth in stronger versions.
Overall Impression: An easy-drinking pint. Malt-focused
with an initial sweetness and a roasted dryness in the finish.


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## Thefatdoghead

seamad said:


> If doing a double could try half with 1084 and half with 1469?


Great Idea! I'll give it a go and see how different they come out. I'll Report back on this thread with results.

Gav


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## Xarb

I dropped the 15min addition to be more 'to style'. 

Also most non-craft beer drinkers who drink my beers with late hop additions find them too hoppy. I didn't want to risk it with this one being made primarily as a bday present.


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## seamad

Gav,

Did you end up doing the split batch and if so how did it turn out ?

Cheers
Sean


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## seamad

Bump


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## Thefatdoghead

seamad said:


> Gav,
> 
> Did you end up doing the split batch and if so how did it turn out ?
> 
> Cheers
> Sean



Hey Sean,

Sorry for the late reply I been working out at sea for a while and unable to access this site. Anyway I did do a double batch and Im drinking it now. I did one with Irish ale 1084 and the other with 1968 ESB. 

Just waiting for them both to warm up a little more (have my fridge set pretty cold) so I can get a better idea but straight away I prefer the 1968. The 1084 Irish ale is nice and clean in a way but I get this real chewy malt flavour from the 1968. The irish ale finished a little higher than the ESB so the mouthfeel is a little thinner as well. 
For me ill be making it with 1968 from now on I just love that yeast! I used it in an oatmeal stout a while ago and i'll tell ya the keg didn't last long. Well maybe for a summer beer id think about using the irish but for winter the ESB is the clear winner for bringing out the malt profile etc. Sorry if this is a bad explanation im still a novice but yeah ESB all the way for me. 
Just sipping the 1084 as it's warmed up a little more and tasting really nice. Very drinkable lovely drop so ill have to see what my mates think but the ESB is going to be the one on tap from now on. 

Cheers


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## jimjam

I made this with Windsor dry yeast. So far it has a nice malty taste with a subtle bitterness from the hops. It has been about three weeks in the bottle and the room where the bottles are sitting in is a bit on the cold side. My BRTD is still a bit too sweet for my tastes. I am hoping as it ages it will dry out and loose some of the residual sweetness. 

I am thinking I should have used a liquid Irish Ale Yeast. What difference would this make to the beer and would it impart less sweetness to the beer?


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## Fatgodzilla

jimjam said:


> I made this with Windsor dry yeast. So far it has a nice malty taste with a subtle bitterness from the hops. It has been about three weeks in the bottle and the room where the bottles are sitting in is a bit on the cold side. My BRTD is still a bit too sweet for my tastes. I am hoping as it ages it will dry out and loose some of the residual sweetness.
> 
> I am thinking I should have used a liquid Irish Ale Yeast. What difference would this make to the beer and would it impart less sweetness to the beer?




what was your final gravity when you bottled? I haven't used Windsor in years but am I right in to remembering it does not attentuate as well as other yeasts, leaving a higher malt residual ? This could be one cause of the sweetness.

There has been quite a bit of talk on the yeasts that brewers have used to make this recipe. Suggest you re-read the thread to get what is really a bit of diverse comment. I like the Irish yeast but I'd be interested in trying some other northern English yeasts for variation.

If you don't have it, visit the Wyeast site and get their yeast guide - it lists all their yeast and which yeast suits which styles. There is a fair amount of interchangeability with some yeasts eg Irish and German Ale yeasts pretty much usable in the same styles.


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## jimjam

Fatgodzilla said:


> what was your final gravity when you bottled? I haven't used Windsor in years but am I right in to remembering it does not attentuate as well as other yeasts, leaving a higher malt residual ? This could be one cause of the sweetness.
> 
> There has been quite a bit of talk on the yeasts that brewers have used to make this recipe. Suggest you re-read the thread to get what is really a bit of diverse comment. I like the Irish yeast but I'd be interested in trying some other northern English yeasts for variation.
> 
> If you don't have it, visit the Wyeast site and get their yeast guide - it lists all their yeast and which yeast suits which styles. There is a fair amount of interchangeability with some yeasts eg Irish and German Ale yeasts pretty much usable in the same styles.



I think I will have to use one of the Wyeast yeasts next time. Seems to be more variety: high medium and low attenuating yeasts to suit the style. Thanks for the advise.


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## contrarian

Can't wait to have a crack at this recipe! Does anyone know how this compares to the Karl Strauss red trolley ale? Had it for the first time the other day and was incredibly impressed.


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## contrarian

Just knocked out a double batch of this yesterday using the original recipe. Ended up with a slightly low OG but mainly because I had overestimated my boil off over the hour. Still ended up with 1.048. 

Can't wait to get this one fermenting. Am planning on kegging half for more immediate consumption and bottling the other half for saving for a few months. 

It was drinking a red trolley ale that had me keen to make this recipe. Does anyone have a basis for comparison?


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## micbrew

just banged this baby out ...ummm very noice

what a lovelly drop

this will be a keeper

cheers mick


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## Kingy

Filled a keg of this about 4 weeks ago and was nice but other beers took the tap. Now aged a bit, as stated before, it is required. Is tasting really good. The missus is gunna drain it before me. Gunna let my precious bottled 8 largys sit in the special crate till the end of winter and try drink em on the sly.
Yum yum. Nice beer.


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## Kingy

Pic.


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## Brew Forky

After brewing Chappo's V3 recipe I am not impressed at all. It honestly tastes like liquid Fairy Floss for the first half of glass, diminishing to cloying sweetness thereafter. I'm guessing the 15% of Melanoiden might be the culprit here as I've never used it in such large amounts. Weyermann say up to 20% but from what I've read, most people use up to 5%.

I'm not going to be disheartened and will give the original recipe a shot.


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## manticle

Brew the original. I can't imagine what melanoiden would bring to the party that improves on it - that looks like a huge amount too. Keep it simple - it's a lovely beer.


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## Fatgodzilla

manticle said:


> Brew the original. I can't imagine what melanoiden would bring to the party that improves on it - that looks like a huge amount too. Keep it simple - it's a lovely beer.



Chappo's V3 used three times the melanoidon and cut the carared and crystal. Stick with the original. Not a brew to drink "fresh" either - let it sit in a keg /bottle for a few months if you can. Don't know why, just seems to taste better after a 8 weeks sitting there.


----------

