# MillMaster Mini Mill slow after adjusting gap



## tallie (25/2/13)

Yesterday I narrowed the gap on my MillMaster Mini Mill from 1.5mm to 1.2mm as a step to address some mash efficiency changes I've encountered since upgrading to a Braumeister. After changing the gap, it took more than 20 minutes to put just over 6kg through, despite being exactly the same grain bill that I milled two weeks ago in around 5 minutes. I understand that narrowing the gap could have some impact the flow, but I don't think it's an unreasonable setting and I'm not aware of it taking that long for anyone else.

The grain looked like it was just rolling around on top of the rollers half the time, although there always seemed to be some bits going through and both rollers were always turning. I turn the mill using a variable-speed power drill and it didn't have the usual resistance that I've felt when working the drill previously. I tried different speeds, but it didn't make any noticable difference. I brush the rollers down after each use and they don't look "clogged" or anything. I use the perspex hopper that was made for the mill, which I removed when I changed the gap, but I'm pretty sure it went back on in the same position. Even towards the end when the hopper wasn't at capacity, it was still slow.

I can't think of anything else that would have changed. It might have been more humid here yesterday, but if anything, I would have thought that would help with pulling the grain through. I have noticed in the past that some grains don't go through as quick as others, but I don't recall it ever taking that long. Does anyone have any suggestions I might try next time to speed things up? I'd prefer not to have to mill twice on two different gap sizes. Can anyone else with this setup give me an idea on how long it takes for you to mill?

Incidentally, changing the gap did help a little bit with mash efficiency, but not as much as I'd hoped.

Cheers,
tallie


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## vortex (25/2/13)

No idea why it would be so slow. I have the same mill albeit with a custom hopper which allows about 20kg of grain, never been slow or had any issues with pulling the grain into the mill even when the hopper is nearly empty.
I mill at 1.2mm and last brewday milled 14kg in about 15 mins (I mill slowly intentionally).


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## Florian (25/2/13)

Tallie, from the way you describe it I can't help but think that the gap is too small for the grain you're using. You say some grain seems to be rolling around on the rollers but some also get through.

Could it be that the grains have to be in a certain position for the rollers to be able to grab them, pointy end down, for example? So basically the belly being to fat to fit through the rollers, unless the pointy end goes in first and drags the belly in?

EDIT: That obviously would explain why it would take so long to mill, as every grain needs to be turned into the right position first. 
If you think this could be the issue then you could either live with it or slightly up your gap and see how that goes.


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## tallie (25/2/13)

vortex said:


> No idea why it would be so slow. I have the same mill albeit with a custom hopper which allows about 20kg of grain, never been slow or had any issues with pulling the grain into the mill even when the hopper is nearly empty.
> I mill at 1.2mm and last brewday milled 14kg in about 15 mins (I mill slowly intentionally).


Right; that's about the speed I would be expecting.



Florian said:


> Tallie, from the way you describe it I can't help but think that the gab is too small for the grain you're using. You say some grain seems to be rolling around on the rollers but some also get through.
> 
> Could it be that the grains have to be in a certain position for the rollers to be able to grab them, pointy end down, for example? So basically the belly being to fat to fit through the rollers, unless the pointy end goes in first and drags the belly in?


That makes sense, Florian, but I don't think I'm using particularly exotic grains. This was the grain bill for the last two batches:
43% BB Ale
32% Wey. Munich I
8% Wey. Carapils
8% Heritage Med Crystal
6% BB Wheat
3% TF Pale Choc

Now that you mention it, maybe one of those (I'm looking at you, BB Wheat) is causing the problem. Next batch will be a different grain bill, but I might run the each type of grain through separately to see if some are slower than others. Thanks for the hint!

Cheers,
tallie


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## vortex (25/2/13)

tallie said:


> Now that you mention it, maybe one of those (I'm looking at you, BB Wheat) is causing the problem. Next batch will be a different grain bill, but I might run the each type of grain through separately to see if some are slower than others. Thanks for the hint!


I doubt it. 60% Wheat 40% Pils wasn't an issue in mine @ 1.2mm.

How old is the mill? Is the knurling worn at all?


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## tallie (25/2/13)

vortex said:


> I doubt it. 60% Wheat 40% Pils wasn't an issue in mine @ 1.2mm.
> 
> How old is the mill? Is the knurling worn at all?


I can't remember exactly what the knurling was like brand-new, but I've only been using the mill for less than a year (20-25 single batches). It's fairly uniform across the entire width of the rollers - the centre of the diamonds aren't pointed, but the texture is there. I would hope that it's not that worn yet! I'll take a look at the new ones next time I'm at the shop to compare.

Cheers,
tallie


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## Amber Fluid (25/2/13)

I cant tell you exactly what mine is adjusted to but you can barely put a credit card in the gap. I also use a motion dynamics motor and it usually chews through 5-6kg grain in well under 5 minutes on a slow speed through the same perspex hopper. This includes BB Wheat.

I have also milled about the same amount of batches (20-25) and all about 5-6kg grain. My mill still runs as good as the day I got it and it has no trouble dragging any grain through that I have used yet.

I know this doesn't help your problem, but I guess I am just trying to explain that I have used mine for about as much as you have yours and it's still as good as new. Therefore, it doesn't sound like a grain issue to me.


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## vortex (25/2/13)

Amber Fluid said:


> I have also milled about the same amount of batches (20-25) and all about 5-6kg grain. My mill still runs as good as the day I got it and it has no trouble dragging any grain through that I have used yet.
> 
> I know this doesn't help your problem, but I guess I am just trying to explain that I have used mine for about as much as you have yours and it's still as good as new. Therefore, it doesn't sound like a grain issue to me.


Ditto. Similar age and batches on my mill, still works as good as the day it was new.


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## Florian (25/2/13)

Just thought of it, you haven't mounted the mill upside down after changing the gap by any chance?

I have the original MillMaster and have done that once, which resulted in grain getting stuck in the gears and because of this the shaft was harder to turn, therefore it took longer to mill. 

Probably a long shot but thought I'd throw it out there, it's not that it hasn't happened before.


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## tallie (25/2/13)

Thanks guys, the data points are helpful even if I'm still to get to the bottom of it.

And good thinking Florian, but the mill was bolted to the base the whole time - I removed the hopper to set the gap. There is a gear guard built in to that hopper too.


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## booargy (25/2/13)

I found with a 1mm gap ale malt it wouldn't catch but pilsner malt would. So I moved the gap to 1.5mm and it goes through easily. But I also mill into a bucket then through again onto the mash water.


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## bignath (26/2/13)

Tallie, I have experienced the same problem to you fairly recently. Grain struggles to get dragged through... You can feel it in the drill that it isn't taking properly etc... I was at .9mm so I opened the gap to 1.5mm. Worked fine again. Closed it back to 1.2-1.4 and still works sweetly but now I crush twice. Second run only takes a minute.

Haven't gone back to under 1mm yet. 

I'm convinced its a knurling issue. My old Crankenstein had a really aggressive pattern on it, much more so than the mini mill. 

Maybe our mills were built on a Friday afternoon?


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## Batz (26/2/13)

So geared mills are not all they are cracked up to be?

My old Valley Mill, one driven roller now over 10 years old and never missed a beat. :beerbang:


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## bignath (26/2/13)

Batz said:


> So geared mills are not all they are cracked up to be?


Ahh, I see what you've done there batz.... Very clever.

But I'd be inclined to agree re: geared rollers. I personally couldn't have cared less about the gears. The main reason I 'upgraded' was the quick gap changing method. PITA on a crankenstein 2 roller entry level mill.
As I was changing brew rigs toward a biab style rig, I wanted ease of adjustment to dial it all in.

Still love my mini mill, just wish the knurling was a bit more angry. Old mans a metal fabricator....might give it to him to re-knurl.


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## Batz (26/2/13)

Just stirring the pot a bit Nath.
I'm a bit surprised that brewers are having trouble with these mills, I know the old model was a ripper. I though if and when my mill finally dies I would go a Millmaster because of the two driven rollers. I wonder if there maybe another problem you are over looking? 

As I said my old Valley must have had many tonnes of grain put through it in it's life, I just hope it keeps going. 

Batz


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## Smokomark (26/2/13)

I had the same result when i dropped my gap from 1.5mm to 1.3mm. 
The mill would process 8-9kg in about 5 mins at 1.5mm. Once i dropped to 1.3mm it took about 20 mins.

Doesn't really bother me as I just have to upend a 30lt fermenter ( with large funnel attached to lid ) full of grain into the perspex hopper, hit the on switch and walk away. 

It gives me a bit of time to check over the brew rig and pour a beer.


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## mikec (26/2/13)

Could the drill be slipping?
Increased resistance from tighter gap, drill is spinning but mill not so much.


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## tallie (26/2/13)

smokomark said:


> I had the same result when i dropped my gap from 1.5mm to 1.3mm.
> The mill would process 8-9kg in about 5 mins at 1.5mm. Once i dropped to 1.3mm it took about 20 mins.
> 
> Doesn't really bother me as I just have to upend a 30lt fermenter ( with large funnel attached to lid ) full of grain into the perspex hopper, hit the on switch and walk away.
> ...


Somewhat comforting to know I'm not the only one, although it's still less than ideal. My mill isn't setup to run hands-free at the moment, so I can't just let it run in the background while I do other stuff.



mikec said:


> Could the drill be slipping?
> Increased resistance from tighter gap, drill is spinning but mill not so much.


Another good thought, although given that the shaft is keyed for the handle, I think I would have noticed it slipping if it wasn't tight enough. I'll still look out for that next time.

I'll also take the mill into the shop and compare the knurling side-by-side with a new one.

Cheers,
tallie


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## vortex (26/2/13)

Are you simply trying to mill too fast? IE drill going too fast? I have my drill set on the slowest speed (most torque) and only use about 1/2 "throttle". When there is the last few grains in the hopper (I'm talking probably 10 - 15 actual grains) a few bounce around a little, but no real issues pulling them through.

I'd also build a bigger mill hopper, 1.x kg really isn't big enough, you'll be there all day just pouring malt in!


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## tallie (26/2/13)

vortex said:


> Are you simply trying to mill too fast? IE drill going too fast? I have my drill set on the slowest speed (most torque) and only use about 1/2 "throttle". When there is the last few grains in the hopper (I'm talking probably 10 - 15 actual grains) a few bounce around a little, but no real issues pulling them through.
> 
> I'd also build a bigger mill hopper, 1.x kg really isn't big enough, you'll be there all day just pouring malt in!


I usually go reasonably slow; always on the lowest gear and rarely over half throttle. I tried a few different speeds, including running it at the point that it would occasionally stall when it finally seemed to take hold of a decent amount of grain, but once that got through, it would just roll around again, not taking much in.

And yes, I do have a PVC leaf catcher pipe fitting that I use to extend the hopper up to about 4kg capacity


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## Markbeer (26/2/13)

Here is something you can try. Mill a kg then get this crushed grain and mix it with some uncrushed grain and then feed this. 

it feeds great for me. Every time I add grain to the hopper I take some crushed and mix it through. Stops the dancing on the rollers.

Mark


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## QldKev (26/2/13)

Batz said:


> So geared mills are not all they are cracked up to be?
> 
> My old Valley Mill, one driven roller now over 10 years old and never missed a beat. :beerbang:



Now thats a crack up  




Bit more serious, I would be checking with the supplier if you can't even mill grain at a 1.0mm setting.


QldKev


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## Crusty (26/2/13)

QldKev said:


> Now thats a crack up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd be doing the same.
Somethings not right. They are a great mill & mine is set at 0.9mm or so & I have no issues with mine at all.
I'd be surprised if it's the rollers though, it's a quality mill.


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## Batz (26/2/13)

Just me Kev, I've got a crush on my Valley Mill. 

It's a bit husk husk, but sometimes the flour does seem to have died from our relationship, hopperfully with a bit of gap adjustment and a good knurl tonight I'll be happy with the crack.

Here's hoping for a good result.


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## Aydos (27/2/13)

Batz said:


> Just me Kev, I've got a crush on my Valley Mill.
> 
> It's a bit husk husk, but sometimes the flour does seem to have died from our relationship, hopperfully with a bit of gap adjustment and a good knurl tonight I'll be happy with the crack.
> 
> Here's hoping for a good result.


Ha ha that's great, good play on words!


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## Aydos (27/2/13)

Batz said:


> Just me Kev, I've got a crush on my Valley Mill.
> 
> It's a bit husk husk, but sometimes the flour does seem to have died from our relationship, hopperfully with a bit of gap adjustment and a good knurl tonight I'll be happy with the crack.
> 
> Here's hoping for a good result.


Ha ha that's great, good play on words!


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## .DJ. (27/2/13)

ive found if the rollers are SLIGHTLY out (as in, not a perfectly straight gap all the way) then they wont grab the grain...

Also, some flour/husk can get caught in the sides of the rollers (and is impossible to see) and this effects it aswell...


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## tallie (27/2/13)

Markbeer said:


> Here is something you can try. Mill a kg then get this crushed grain and mix it with some uncrushed grain and then feed this.
> 
> it feeds great for me. Every time I add grain to the hopper I take some crushed and mix it through. Stops the dancing on the rollers.
> 
> Mark


If I don't get it resolved any other way, I'll keep this in mind for a backup. It doesn't sound like I've got any unreasonable expectations though, so I'd be a bit disappointed if it came to that.



.DJ. said:


> ive found if the rollers are SLIGHTLY out (as in, not a perfectly straight gap all the way) then they wont grab the grain...
> 
> Also, some flour/husk can get caught in the sides of the rollers (and is impossible to see) and this effects it aswell...


Whilst I didn't take a measurement from the centre of the rollers, I did measure both sides. I'm pretty sure the rollers are parallel otherwise.

What do you mean by "the sides of the rollers"? In the knurling on the main surface, or between the edge of the rollers and the frame? The knurling is clean and I don't see how the latter could affect the ability to pull the grain through.


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## .DJ. (27/2/13)

between the edge of the rollers and the frame... dont ask me why, but it does effect performance...

this is an email I got back after having issues...


_The two roller should be the easiest to set up. There's a few things that
are important to make it work. The rollers have to spin freely before and
during crushing. If the idler won't spin very easily then feeding is a
problem. If there's too much endgap then grain can get caught between the
frames, and the rollers, and cause problems. Remove the hopper, loosen the
mounting bolts, press frames together to minimize endplay. Center one frame
in the mounting holes, and tighten that frame fully, then move the opposite
frame back and forth to find the center of the freeplay, and then slowly
tighten making sure that there's no binding. Spin the rollers to check for
no binding. They should spin very freely, and keep spinning like a wheel
when you run your hand accross them quickly.

If the gap is much smaller than 1mm, then you won't be able to feed. Not
knowing what the gap is, it's entirely possible that its too tight. Without
setting it with a feeler guage there's no way to know. Set the gap at both
ends of the rollers to 0.038 to 0.040" of an inch. Make sure that both ends
of the adjustable roller are either coming up from underneath toward the
drive roller, or coming down toward the drive roller. If one is coming up,
and the other is going down, it won't work.

All this assumes he has our hopper. If he doesn't then all bets are off,
and the hopper could be causing the problems. Hopper issues arise when the
grain bounces over the tops of the rollers, and can get caught between the
base, or sides of the mill (when top mounted, and the sides of the mill are
covered) and then this stopps up the idler from rolling.

Key is that the idler spins without any binding during and before milling so
that the drive roller can pull the grain in._


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## tallie (27/2/13)

.DJ. said:


> between the edge of the rollers and the frame... dont ask me why, but it does effect performance...


Ah, sounds like that's for a non-geared mill, where only one roller is driven. The Mini Mill is geared, so both rollers turn even when there's no grain going through.


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## Florian (27/2/13)

That email sounds like it's talking about non geared mills, which the mini mill isn't.

EDIT: beaten and confirmed...


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## Beerisyummy (27/2/13)

Big Nath said:


> Tallie, I have experienced the same problem to you fairly recently. Grain struggles to get dragged through... You can feel it in the drill that it isn't taking properly etc... I was at .9mm so I opened the gap to 1.5mm. Worked fine again. Closed it back to 1.2-1.4 and still works sweetly but now I crush twice. Second run only takes a minute.
> 
> Haven't gone back to under 1mm yet.
> 
> ...


Hi Nath (and Tallie),

From what I've been told an aggressive knurling is not the answer.

I've got the same mill ( I think) and it's been working a treat. Using a high torque dc drill between 200 and 400 rpm is my routine.
Lower would be better IMO.

With settings below 1mm it will kick grain back up unless the hopper feed stops it. 
If grain is pushing down on top of the grain feeding into the rollers it does not kickback.

As much as I'd like to crush grain in one pass, I'm moving to the two pass method for consistency.
I've also heard of people wetting the grain prior to milling which might be more sensible.

PS. The last few brews I've just hosed off the mill and put it in a good spot to dry with no ill effects rearing up so far.
They are an awsome piece of kit.


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## bradsbrew (17/1/15)

Tallie, did you resolve this problem? My mini mill is giving me the shits lately. Unless I do a double pass I am waiting at least 25 minutes for 4kg. With just a handful of grain it just bounces around when set to around 1mm. If I set it any wider too many uncrushed grain get through.

Cheers


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## Spiesy (17/1/15)

bradsbrew said:


> Tallie, did you resolve this problem? My mini mill is giving me the shits lately. Unless I do a double pass I am waiting at least 25 minutes for 4kg. With just a handful of grain it just bounces around when set to around 1mm. If I set it any wider too many uncrushed grain get through.
> 
> Cheers


How old is your mill and how much use has it seen?


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## bradsbrew (17/1/15)

Spiesy said:


> How old is your mill and how much use has it seen?


Not quite sure on age but probably 2 years and would have done a few hundred kilos. Are you saying these things have a life span at a homebrew level? This is a pic of the gap, will upload a video of how it performs at this gap setting shortly.


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## huez (17/1/15)

bradsbrew said:


> Tallie, did you resolve this problem? My mini mill is giving me the shits lately. Unless I do a double pass I am waiting at least 25 minutes for 4kg. With just a handful of grain it just bounces around when set to around 1mm. If I set it any wider too many uncrushed grain get through.
> 
> Cheers


there's another thread on this forum that i posted my issues in with this mill. Contact mashmaster or whoever you bought it off. I had exactly the same problem. Craftbrewer ended up sending me a new mill but frank from mashmaster offered to send me new rollers.


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## Spiesy (17/1/15)

bradsbrew said:


> Not quite sure on age but probably 2 years and would have done a few hundred kilos. Are you saying these things have a life span at a homebrew level? This is a pic of the gap, will upload a video of how it performs at this gap setting shortly.


Everything has a life span.

I'm no metallurgist, but I don't believe stainless is the most hardy of metals for wear, not the sort of wear that a mill roller sees. And I don't believe the knurling found on the MiniMill is overly deep, so it is going to wear over time - I guess it just depends on when.

How often you mill, how much, what time of gap and what types of grain would dictate how long that life span is.

I used a MiniMill for a year, commercially, and in the end I was getting a similar result to you.
At a rough guess, our mill may have seen 3 tonne go through it, which for the average homebrewer could mean a lifetime of milling.


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## bradsbrew (17/1/15)

Spiesy said:


> Everything has a life span.
> 
> I'm no metallurgist, but I don't believe stainless is the most hardy of metals for wear, not the sort of wear that a mill roller sees. And I don't believe the knurling found on the MiniMill is overly deep, so it is going to wear over time - I guess it just depends on when.
> How often you mill, how much, what time of gap and what types of grain would dictate how long that life span is.
> ...


Yeah I get that everything has a life span and If I thought I had over used and got my moneys worth then I would just buy another. However I do not believe this to be the case and to be totally honest I think I achieved a better service from my old marga mill (that I gave away to a brew club member) than this thing.

The knurling "looks" as good as when I got it?


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## Spiesy (17/1/15)

bradsbrew said:


> Yeah I get that everything has a life span and If I thought I had over used and got my moneys worth then I would just buy another. However I do not believe this to be the case and to be totally honest I think I achieved a better service from my old marga mill (that I gave away to a brew club member) than this thing.
> 
> The knurling "looks" as good as when I got it?


Perhaps you should contact your retailer.


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## bradsbrew (17/1/15)

Here is a video,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoN9mm9N6oc


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## bradsbrew (17/1/15)

Spiesy said:


> Perhaps you should contact your retailer.


Yeah, was just checking here for a solution before I do.


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## huez (17/1/15)

its the knurling, mine wore after only 6months of very light use.


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## bradsbrew (17/1/15)

huez said:


> its the knurling, mine wore after only 6months of very light use.


Ok, thanks huez. Will get onto them.
For the RRP of these things you would think they would last a bit longer.


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## Crunched (18/1/15)

I've got the same problem and don't believe it's the knurling as mine's been doing it since day one. I thought that's just how they were and have been running grain through twice. I might contact MM now that I know that some people have no issue with them.


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## iambj (18/1/15)

The problem has to be the knurl on the rollers, they either wear very quickly and this would not happen with quality stainless. Or the knurling was not aggressive enough to start with, knurling stainless is difficult and the knurling heads would need to be replaced now and then to keep the same quality as the heads do wear. (perhaps you guys scored rollers towards the end of a run?)
Considering these mills are marketed as a superior mill, with price tag to match I would be very disappointed if I had recently bought one.
Also three tonnes of grain on a home brew scale is nothing, my mill has done may more than that without any issues at all.

Good luck and keep us posted with the manufacture follow up.


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## Pogierob (18/1/15)

iambj said:


> The problem has to be the knurl on the rollers, they either wear very quickly and this would not happen with quality stainless. Or the knurling was not aggressive enough to start with, knurling stainless is difficult and the knurling heads would need to be replaced now and then to keep the same quality as the heads do wear. (perhaps you guys scored rollers towards the end of a run?)
> Considering these mills are marketed as a superior mill, with price tag to match I would be very disappointed if I had recently bought one.
> Also three tonnes of grain on a home brew scale is nothing, my mill has done may more than that without any issues at all.
> 
> Good luck and keep us posted with the manufacture follow up.


3 tonnes of grain at an average of 5kg per batch is about 600 brews. ball park 1200 slabs of beer, by my count that is a fairly large scale homebrew operation.
Perhaps I'm just not brewing enough though.


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## iambj (18/1/15)

If you believe in replacing your mill often, I have had mine 10 years.

Some of us do brew quite a bit. :beerbang:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/84417-how-many-litres-did-you-brew-in-2014/


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## Pogierob (18/1/15)

slabs stubbies years stubbies per year stubbies per day
1200 = 28800 / 10 2880 7.89


Fair enough..

good mileage for your mill.

Edit. puts it at 1.15 standard batches each week.


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## Spiesy (18/1/15)

iambj said:


> If you believe in replacing your mill often, I have had mine 10 years.
> 
> Some of us do brew quite a bit. :beerbang:
> 
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/84417-how-many-litres-did-you-brew-in-2014/


And if you're brewing every second week, 25 batches a year, 600 batches would last you over 20-years - sounds pretty acceptable to me.


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## Alt Atude (18/1/15)

Rob.P said:


> slabs stubbies years stubbies per year stubbies per day
> 1200 = 28800 / 10 2880 7.89
> 
> 
> ...


Very good mileage I'd say!

Then there's rather bad as well.



> Yeah I get that everything has a life span and If I thought I had over used and got my moneys worth then I would just buy another. However I do not believe this to be the case and to be totally honest I think I achieved a better service from my old marga mill (that I gave away to a brew club member) than this thing.
> 
> The knurling "looks" as good as when I got it?





> I've got the same problem and don't believe it's the knurling as mine's been doing it since day one. I thought that's just how they were and have been running grain through twice. I might contact MM now that I know that some people have no issue with them.





> its the knurling, mine wore after only 6months of very light use.


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## Pogierob (18/1/15)

I guess that is the point, if Spiesy smashed out 3 tonne (600 batches worth of grain) on one of these bad boys before the knurling was worn too much, then the guys having issues after such a small time shouldn't hesitate about contacting the supplier.


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## BrissyBrew (18/1/15)

Mashmaster did have some issues with knurling on a previous batch. If you have any issues please contact us via our website or email [email protected]


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## Alt Atude (18/1/15)

BrissyBrew said:


> Mashmaster did have some issues with knurling on a previous batch. If you have any issues please contact us via our website or email [email protected]


As someone in the market for a mill I thank you now for this information. Not much from the retailers selling this mill of late but.
Good luck hey?


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## Crunched (18/1/15)

Email sent! Never realised Mashmaster were in Brisbane!

I hope mine is one of the dodgy batches, so I can finally get it working properly! (and then tell all those people I told not to buy a MM to maybe go out and get one now!)


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## Camo6 (18/1/15)

By MM do you mean a Mash Master, a Mini Mill, a Malt Muncher or a Monster Mill? FFS, who comes up with these names?


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## seamad (18/1/15)

monster mash ?


the topis is for the millmaster mini ( mashmaster )


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## Crunched (18/1/15)

FYI - already received a response to my email (on a Sunday) from Mashmaster - and they're more than happy to help out. That's great customer service.


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## Dunkelbrau (18/1/15)

Nevermind


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## bradsbrew (18/1/15)

Crunched said:


> FYI - already received a response to my email (on a Sunday) from Mashmaster - and they're more than happy to help out. That's great customer service.


Yes I too was pretty impressed to get a response the same day on a Sunday.


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## 5150 (5/2/15)

This forum is amazing as a resource, I've just read all the way through the post hoping for an answer as I've only done 5 brews and hoping for a solution. Last time I milled it was 16.45Kg and it took well over 30 mins, which I didn't expect as it has been awesome and lived up to everyone's amazing reviews. And there is a solution  I will contact Brissybrew and fingers crossed. 

For the people who have resolved any issues please comment so the full picture can be painted,

Cheers.


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## Liam_snorkel (5/2/15)

oh great, I just bought one from Craftbrewer at $20 lower price than directly through Mashmaster - I hope that doesn't mean it's one of the duds. :angry:


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## Crunched (5/2/15)

I got my new rollers in the mail and will be testing them out this weekend. But you can definitely see the knurling on the old rollers isn't as deep as these new ones.


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## 5150 (5/2/15)

Crunched said:


> I got my new rollers in the mail and will be testing them out this weekend. But you can definitely see the knurling on the old rollers isn't as deep as these new ones.


Thanks Crunched, I've just send an email. Please let us know if you see a big difference. The Mashmaster was the top recommendation when I was looking for a mill.


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## Yob (5/2/15)

Over monster?

K...

15kg, 3.5 minutes.. Just sayin


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## 5150 (5/2/15)

Wow, it took 16 minutes from when I sent an email to a response regarding my issue with a solution of sending me new rollers.

Seriously blown away by the service, imagine if I bought from china, and I buy heaps of "shit" from china. :unsure:

Thanks mashmaster, you've kind of got me for life!


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## Milk-lizard84 (5/2/15)

Can't fault Frank from mash masters customer service. I managed to completely **** one of the rollers. Long story but after several emails back and forth with him I recieved a a new roller. I am going to re jig my setup and use the motion dynamics motor system with a key way to not make the same mistakes i did.


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## Camo6 (5/2/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> oh great, I just bought one from Craftbrewer at $20 lower price than directly through Mashmaster - I hope that doesn't mean it's one of the duds. :angry:


Don't fret, I bought mine from CB a few years back and it was $20 cheaper than through Mashmaster.
But on second thought, considering my mill only runs at 60rpm I might not notice a poor knurling issue.
Ok. Now I'm fretting.


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## Ross (5/2/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> oh great, I just bought one from Craftbrewer at $20 lower price than directly through Mashmaster - I hope that doesn't mean it's one of the duds. :angry:


 why would it mean that?


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## Spiesy (5/2/15)

Yob said:


> Over monster?
> 
> K...
> 
> 15kg, 3.5 minutes.. Just sayin


Different strengths and weaknesses, in my honest opinion, and I own both. 

I love the rollers on the Monster 2.0, but it crushes differently than a geared mill.


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## Yob (5/2/15)

MM3... took a while to bed my process to it but after 3 uses...

Mate, the only time Ive seen a faster/better crush was watching Brendo's Mill at the Public Brewery.... that this is pure evil


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## Liam_snorkel (5/2/15)

Ross said:


> why would it mean that?


because you may have older stock than Mashmaster.


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## bradsbrew (5/2/15)

I had new rollers arrive at my door 3 days after contacting Frank. The mill now works better than it ever has for the past 2 years.


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## Camo6 (5/2/15)

Hey Bradsbrew, any chance of a pic of the difference in knurling. Not trying to cause a panic and a comparison pic might soothe worried minds.
If there's a visual difference that is.


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## Ross (6/2/15)

Liam_snorkel said:


> because you may have older stock than Mashmaster.


 Rest assured, we both have the same aged stock ☺. As you've seen, any issues have been dealt with speedily and to the customers satisfaction. It's one of the reasons why we have stocked and endorsed Mashmaster products from the very start.


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## Spiesy (6/2/15)

Yob said:


> MM3... took a while to bed my process to it but after 3 uses...
> 
> Mate, the only time Ive seen a faster/better crush was watching Brendo's Mill at the Public Brewery.... that this is pure evil


It's 2.0 I'm talking about as well, which is a huge difference over the first gen mills. I have a 2.0 2-roller hardened steel mill. Top of the line, in the 2 roller flavour. 

Monster kills my MashMaster on speed, but for some people it's not all about speed.


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## Crunched (6/2/15)

Here's a pic of the old and new rollers side by side. New one on the left. You can see the flat spot on the top of the knurling on the old one on the right where it wasn't cut deep enough.


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## Crunched (6/2/15)

2MB limit on file uploads?? What are we in 1995 and everyone has dial-up?

Here's the image hosted elsewhere:


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## Yob (6/2/15)

Spiesy said:


> but for some people it's not all about speed.


I dont see why not, if the crush is eqqual and if I can do something in 1/4 of the time it otherwise would, leaves more time for other things..


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## TheWiggman (6/2/15)

Because I can only rotate my arm so fast?
Gotta add, stellar support from MashMaster here and this is what these forums are all about. People don't value support until they run into trouble, and when they do they quickly forget how much they spent when their problems are resolved. If looking for another mill I wouldn't hesitate in getting a mashmaster.


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## Liam_snorkel (6/2/15)

Ross said:


> Rest assured, we both have the same aged stock ☺. As you've seen, any issues have been dealt with speedily and to the customers satisfaction. It's one of the reasons why we have stocked and endorsed Mashmaster products from the very start.


Good to hear mate.


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## Wolfman (6/2/15)

Yob said:


> I dont see why not, if the crush is eqqual and if I can do something in 1/4 of the time it otherwise would, leaves more time for other things..


OT: Time to buy a Braumeister then Yob?


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## Yob (6/2/15)

I think not wolfman, what would I do with all the extra space?


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## seamad (6/2/15)

Yob said:


> I think not wolfman, what would I do with all the extra space?


another one ?


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## Crusty (6/2/15)

Is the roller issue something we should all be looking at?
I bought mine a couple of years ago from Ross & mine's got no issues. Crushes pretty quick & seems to be behaving itself.
You guys are making me nervous!


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## Camo6 (1/3/15)

While motorising my mini mill I took a snap of the knurling. Seems ok to me, slight flat spot on the knurling. Never had an issue milling at 60 rpm but will be keen to see how it goes at 180 rpm.





Can anyone confirm that their knurling was noticeably worse than mine? Not panicking, just expect this mill to last a lifetime so would rather the product support now rather than buying a new one down the track.


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## huez (1/3/15)

looks pretty good to me camo, mine was pretty much smooth to the touch when i started having issues.


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## Camo6 (1/3/15)

Cheers Huez. Fair difference between our pics I thought. Gave the new motor a run with a few hundred grams of carapils and it sucked it down like Cocko on a schoolboy  really quick.


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## Liam_snorkel (21/12/15)

Gah, mine has started having issues now after a year (only 26 batches). Last three brews I've increased the gap and run it through twice but today I had to increase a 3rd time to the point maybe 1/3 of the grain was un cracked on the first pass. Run the bill through 4 times decreasing the gap & managed to get the lot milled in about 90mins. Merry Xmas to me!


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## Batz (21/12/15)

And my dear old Valley mill continues since 2005. Must be many tonnes through the old girl now.
They don't make them like they used too.


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## Rocker1986 (21/12/15)

Mine's been playing up a bit lately as well but it only seems to be Maris Otter grains that it has any real trouble with. Last brew day it took nearly an hour to mill 4.5kg of MO using a drill to drive the rollers, then I put 500g Munich II through in about 30 seconds, and 300g medium crystal through in about 10 seconds. The Bo Pils malt I'd used on those batches earlier in the year also went through fine.

I have opened the gap on the rollers, not sure exactly what its measurement is but wider than a credit card. The fact that all grains aside from MO seem to be getting dragged through fine makes me wonder whether it's the grain or the mill causing the issue... will have to have a closer inspection of the rollers tomorrow. Planning a brew on Thursday so I guess I'll be sitting there for another hour crushing grains. :blink:


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## antiphile (21/12/15)

or you could try "malt conditioning" and if done according to recommendations it really works a treat.


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## Mr B (21/12/15)

I push my grain through with the mash paddle handle.

True unfortunately.


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## Rocker1986 (21/12/15)

I tried that malt conditioning once, might have overdone the water a bit but it did work. It caused the mill to get stuck at first though, I had to widen the gap to wider than where it is now to get it to go through, but it certainly went through a lot faster.

Having said that, in some ways it doesn't particularly worry me because it gives me something to do while the mash water heats up.


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## Liam_snorkel (22/12/15)

I don't really have to wait for my mash water to heat up - 65deg straight from the HWS


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## Liam_snorkel (22/12/15)

Mine look like the roller on the RHS. Took a pic on the good camera but haven't transferred to a PC yet.




Crunched said:


> 2MB limit on file uploads?? What are we in 1995 and everyone has dial-up?
> 
> Here's the image hosted elsewhere:


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## Rocker1986 (22/12/15)

This is what mine look like... reckon they're too worn?

Have had this mill since Oct. 2012.


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## Batz (22/12/15)

Feedback on these mills is not great, I hope the new model gets the problems sorted. The original MillMaster was a fantastic mill.


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## booargy (22/12/15)

I scored a bar of 4140 thinking about having a go at making my own replacements.


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## bradsbrew (23/12/15)

Batz said:


> Feedback on these mills is not great, I hope the new model gets the problems sorted. The original MillMaster was a fantastic mill.


I am not happy with mine either, even after the replacement rollers I have too run the grain through a couple of times to get a consistent crush. I dont hold much hope for the upgrade, which is a shame for a local product. 
I am over the mini mill and looking to get a new one.

What's a better mill?


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## warra48 (23/12/15)

Batz said:


> The original MillMaster was a fantastic mill.


 Been using my original MillMaster now for about 8 years since they were first released, and it still works a treat.


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## BrutusB (23/12/15)

Batz said:


> Feedback on these mills is not great, I hope the new model gets the problems sorted. The original MillMaster was a fantastic mill.





bradsbrew said:


> I am not happy with mine either, even after the replacement rollers I have too run the grain through a couple of times to get a consistent crush. I dont hold much hope for the upgrade, which is a shame for a local product.
> I am over the mini mill and looking to get a new one.
> 
> What's a better mill?


There's two threads concurrently going regarding the same issues (http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/86495-knurling-on-a-mashmaster-mini-mill/page-3#entry1336038): 

1. Extremely slow/poor crush on most British malts and;
2. Slow/Poor Crush on other grains progressively getting worse as time goes on

As mentioned by bradsbrew, the replacement rollers that were sent some months back didn't solve the problem.

Frank's communication was great in the start, however my last 2 emails (1 month apart) have gone unanswered regarding an update - assume there isn't one or he's busy?

I spoke to Andrew at Fullpint about the issue a little over a week ago and his update was that the 'new' rollers and mills are en-route and expected in December, however Frank is at the mercy of the manufacturer and international shipping - this appears to be consistent with comments in this thread and the other (mentioned above).

I'm happy to continue waiting for the new rollers as I really like the overall design of the product and initially it's performance was great. I'm sure others are in the same boat and want to keep the product due to the fact they have a hopper/motor setup made for it. 

Let's hope we get a few more updates and the stock does in-fact arrive in the next 8 days.


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## Parks (23/12/15)

I've been told this week the shipment in December failed QA and is being re-done to get here early 2016.

My rollers are bearable if I open up the gap and mill twice. Still annoying but OK in the interim.


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## bradsbrew (23/12/15)

I kind of regret giving my marga mill to the local brewclub. The Marga certainly out performed the MashMaster -_-


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## Parks (23/12/15)

My rollers are actually slightly thicker in the middle so more grain gets pulled through either end - pretty weird.

Anyway, hopefully they'll get replaced soon.


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## huez (23/12/15)

Parks said:


> I've been told this week the shipment in December failed QA and is being re-done to get here early 2016.
> 
> My rollers are bearable if I open up the gap and mill twice. Still annoying but OK in the interim.


If this is true i'll be getting a refund and going for a monster mill or something similar. Bit over waiting to be honest


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## desitter (23/12/15)

I too have been having difficulties with my new Mill Master. I've only done about 5 batches with it, but the last two batches with Golden Promise and Marris Otter were especially slow. I had to constantly stir the grains in the hopper around the rollers to get it to take, and what did get crushed was only being crushed by the ends of the rollers, rather than along the whole length of the roller. I've given the rollers a through clean, so well see how it takes on the next batch.

Edit: I use the Motion Dynamics Motor, and find the issue persists regardless of rpm.


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## Batz (23/12/15)

warra48 said:


> Been using my original MillMaster now for about 8 years since they were first released, and it still works a treat.


Everyone would owns an original one says this as well warra. My gut feeling is quality dropped for profit, happens with so many items now. 
I would buy an original MM mill if I could, just watch how long they last on this site if offered for sale.
What mill to buy now? I believe the monster mill has a good rap but I don't own one so who knows.


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## Markbeer (25/12/15)

i used to hate milling on my mini. Constantly moving the grain around with left hand while right hand ran the drill.

i opened the gap to 1.2mm and is working well.

Another trick os to crush a kilo or so tediously then mix through the rest of the bill. Helpsvit pull it through.


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## Spiesy (27/12/15)

I've used both the Monster and MiniMill extensively. I would go the MiniMill any day. Current roller situation sucks, and needs to be remedied fast. But once it is you should have a good quality mill for life. The fact that the MashMaster is geared is the major selling point.


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## Batz (27/12/15)

My Valley Mill is not geared, I have milled tonnes of grain with it without a problem. I think geared mills are no different from any others, if fact it seems to me a geared mill has had more problems pulling grain through than un-geared models.

I hope the problem is sorted with the new rollers.


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## bradsbrew (27/12/15)

Spiesy said:


> I've used both the Monster and MiniMill extensively. I would go the MiniMill any day. Current roller situation sucks, and needs to be remedied fast. But once it is you should have a good quality mill for life. The fact that the MashMaster is geared is the major selling point.


Weren't we told that about the last upgrade?


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## Batz (27/12/15)

bradsbrew said:


> Weren't we told that about the last upgrade?


 :lol:  :lol:


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## huez (27/12/15)

I've requested a refund from craftbrewer. 2 mills and over a year of messing around with it equals a pretty annoyed customer. Even if the new rollers come in the next month or 2, they are going to be untested. Some photos of the new rollers and even photos of some crushed grain would have been appreciated. I do feel for frank though because this is probably costing a pretty penny, but when it comes down to it, the mill does bloody work!


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## bradsbrew (27/12/15)

I am contemplating one of these. http://www.crankandstein.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=7

Might cost a bit more once you add in freight, but it least it will work and not **** the brew day from the start.

The Mashmaster mini mill has been the reason why I have not bothered brewing a few times because I know I am going to crack the shits because it does not work as a mill should!


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## Spiesy (27/12/15)

bradsbrew said:


> Weren't we told that about the last upgrade?


I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone from MashMaster, simply saying that once they fix the roller issue (which I understand has not been fixed) then all should be well. As others have stated, older MiniMill's are still running strong.


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## Spiesy (27/12/15)

Batz said:


> My Valley Mill is not geared, I have milled tonnes of grain with it without a problem. I think geared mills are no different from any others, if fact it seems to me a geared mill has had more problems pulling grain through than un-geared models.
> 
> I hope the problem is sorted with the new rollers.


 Correct me if I'm wrong here, but non-geared rollers only work by jamming grain in the roller gap to turn the non-drive roller and crush the grain, right? That's the only way grain gets through. This means some of the grain has to tear, rather than crush. 

That's how I've always thought of it anyway.


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## bradsbrew (27/12/15)

Spiesy said:


> I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone from MashMaster, simply saying that once they fix the roller issue (which I understand has not been fixed) then all should be well. As others have stated, older MiniMill's are still running strong.


Thats the problem for me Spiesy, mine is an older one and onto its second set of rollers, the second set were supposed to be better. I seriously hope for Franks sake that the next rollers fix the problem. My optimism has run dry.


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## Camo6 (28/12/15)

Not enjoying reading this thread. I've got a mini mill I bought from CB several years ago that has worked trouble free for I don't know how many batches. I haven't used it much over the last year though so it hasn't really been overworked. I'm hoping these rollers were limited to certain batches and not the whole lot.

How long does it take for these faulty rollers to start creating problems?
Also, has anyone NOT had problems from their minimill?


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## Spiesy (28/12/15)

bradsbrew said:


> Thats the problem for me Spiesy, mine is an older one and onto its second set of rollers, the second set were supposed to be better. I seriously hope for Franks sake that the next rollers fix the problem. My optimism has run dry.


Oh, my bad. That sucks. I hope mine holds out!


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## mckenry (28/12/15)

My mashmaster mini mill works perfectly. Not sure how long I've had it though. Maybe 2 years? I could find out if I need to. When were these faulty rollers released ?


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## Batz (28/12/15)

Spiesy said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong here, but non-geared rollers only work by jamming grain in the roller gap to turn the non-drive roller and crush the grain, right? That's the only way grain gets through. This means some of the grain has to tear, rather than crush.
> 
> That's how I've always thought of it anyway.


That's correct, so the grain passes through between two rollers with a specified gap, thus crushing the grain. The same way a geared or un-geared mill works. Most mills are not geared (in fact I believe only one is) and un-geared mills have worked very well for many years and continue to do so.
It's just my personal belief but geared rollers or three rollers mills only true improvement is the sales pitch.

As I said before I'm very happy with the crush of my mill, and I also said I would like to see the old original MashMaster mills back on the shelves. Although it did have problems for a while with grain clogging the gears.

Anyway I'm over mills.

Batz


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## Batz (28/12/15)

bradsbrew said:


> I am contemplating one of these. http://www.crankandstein.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=7
> 
> Might cost a bit more once you add in freight, but it least it will work and not **** the brew day from the start.
> 
> The Mashmaster mini mill has been the reason why I have not bothered brewing a few times because I know I am going to crack the shits because it does not work as a mill should!


Send Tidalpete a PM, he has one of those.


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## bradsbrew (28/12/15)

bradsbrew said:


> Thanks. Just placed my order, will make my own hopper.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers


Looks like i bought mine in August 2012, rollers were replaced just over 12 months ago.

Cheers


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## bradsbrew (28/12/15)

Batz said:


> Send Tidalpete a PM, he has one of those.


Thats what prompted me to look at the crankenstein. If Pete didn't have any complaints it must be good.


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## mckenry (22/1/16)

Well, after reading all 7 pages and a few other threads, i'll be buggered.
Maybe everyone is braumeister or BIAB these days?

After getting pretty poor efficiency last brew I decided to set the gap on my Mashmaster minimill to 1.2mm. Damn bucketload of flour in there I thought!

I have a 3V setup. After mash in, it completely stuck. So badly, no matter how much stirring, I couldnt get the bastard to recirculate for long. Just gummed up and stopped. I had to ditch the entire 11kg and start again. Bloody flour..

Set my gap out to 2mm and it worked ok. It was a big grain bill for an AIPA, so I expected it to be a bit thicker than a 1.050 beer.
I reckon I could have gone 2.2 or more for better recirculation.

Cant believe some in this thread are talking about 0.9mm and less! Surely, regardless of system, this must be giving huge amounts of flour?


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## huez (22/1/16)

I use a herms system and i was milling at 0.9mm! only moved it out to 1.2mm when i started having milling issues. Admittedly i did have better flow at 1.2mm


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## Smokomark (24/1/16)

I used to mill at 1.3 - 1.5 and get a shit load of flour. I've just done a 100 lt batch milled at .9 with the new fluted rollers. NO flour on top of the mash bed and efficiency is way up. Looking for 1.040 pre boil but got 1.053 I've brewed this one a lot and it is always within a point or two of the last one.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/1/16)

You dont want lots of flour, about 20-30% is what to aim for


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## Smokomark (24/1/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:



> You dont want lots of flour, about 20-30% is what to aim for


Exactly Stu. The old rollers produced way to much flour and left a lot of husks untouched. The new fluted rollers give a way better looking crush. No untouched grains an no excessive flour.

And efficiency is thru the roof.

Just to make sure it's not a fluke, the second batch is mashing right now.


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## huez (24/1/16)

smokomark said:


> Exactly Stu. The old rollers produced way to much flour and left a lot of husks untouched. The new fluted rollers give a way better looking crush. No untouched grains an no excessive flour.
> 
> And efficiency is thru the roof.
> 
> Just to make sure it's not a fluke, the second batch is mashing right now.


I'm planning on brewing tomorrow using the new mill for the first time. Had a lengthy discussion with frank and i'm expecting my efficiency to go up also but i wasn't expecting as much as you have gotten! Don't know if i should adjust or just wing it and see what happens. Post with your results after you finish this brew!

Frank has told me he has designed the rollers to produce a max of 10-15% flour when the mill is set to 0mm. I used to get excessive flour with the old mill, causing a heap of doughballs and always had flour on top of the grain bed causing some flow issues.


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## bradsbrew (24/1/16)

Hmmm, going to be interesting to see what the results are like with 1 of each roller.


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## Rocker1986 (24/1/16)

bradsbrew said:


> Hmmm, going to be interesting to see what the results are like with 1 of each roller.


Yes, I'm interested to hear this too, I'm waiting on a single fluted roller to arrive to replace one of the knurled rollers on my mill. Probably take a bit of playing around to get it set where I want it I guess.


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## Liam_snorkel (24/1/16)

mckenry said:


> Well, after reading all 7 pages and a few other threads, i'll be buggered.
> Maybe everyone is braumeister or BIAB these days?
> 
> After getting pretty poor efficiency last brew I decided to set the gap on my Mashmaster minimill to 1.2mm. Damn bucketload of flour in there I thought!
> ...


How are you even cracking grains at 2mm? 

This is 1.2mm with fluted, all grains cracked, no flour:


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## BrissyBrew (22/8/16)

Batz said:


> That's correct, so the grain passes through between two rollers with a specified gap, thus crushing the grain. The same way a geared or un-geared mill works. Most mills are not geared (in fact I believe only one is) and un-geared mills have worked very well for many years and continue to do so.
> It's just my personal belief but geared rollers or three rollers mills only true improvement is the sales pitch.
> 
> As I said before I'm very happy with the crush of my mill, and I also said I would like to see the old original MashMaster mills back on the shelves. Although it did have problems for a while with grain clogging the gears.
> ...


Batz I have tested the mill with and without gears, and also at different gear ratios such as 1:1 and 1:1.25. I can tell you that no gears both the crush distribution on ASBC full sieve set and feed rate were negatively effected. There is a thread on ABH where somebody has removed the gears and tested it for themselves, they prompty put the gears back on. Its not a sales gimmick, the gears are there to get consistent milling and better feed rate. 

The new flutes rollers also have a more stable grist distribution across a larger RPM range 230-520RPM (yeah I put a tachnometer on my mill for testing) I would lay to brag that it was all apart of my genious design but it was pleasant by product of the new fluted roller design that crush is less RPM dependent, actually at hand crank speeds at sub 80RPM flour went up a little (talking 1-2% on the pan and #100 mesh sieve). I think basically because less cutting action of the flutes and more crushing action at really slow speeds. If the gears didnt perform we would have removed the gears and passed on the savings to our customers (the gears have consquential costs like gear guard, hopper feeder, and additional roller length larger frame etc) this all adds up if they didnt do a job I would have removed them. 

I do agree Batz regarding the three roller mills. I dont sell a three roller mill because I have prototyped and test a three roller mills. Both roller gaps adjustable, all 3 rollers geared, 2 roller geared and no rollers geared. I have even tested it with the first set having a back edge on back edge like a commerical roller and the second pass back edge on cutting with fluted rollers, also tested knurled rollers as well. Sieve test showed no improvment and actually worse on average grist distribution (more flour pan and #100 sieve) and visual inspect of the husks looked more damaged. Only with no gears did the extra roller help, in that it was required to make the mill feed grain. The final grist distribution and husk damage was greater in all configurations of the three roller mill. Only if you move to 4 roller mills and shaker sieves in between roller pairs then you get the extra performance from the extra pair of rollers. My conclusion is three roller mills are a combinatin of sales pitch and or a necessity when the rollers are not geared. 

I still get customers asking about the old mill with the bigger diameter rollers on occasions if I will be bringing it back, besides it costing more the grist distribution is no better than new fluted rollers. I have not prototyped the same diameter rollers in fluted though. 

I dont sell hand cranks anymore even though I get requests for them because the vast majority of customers that purchased hand cranks motorized their mill. So it is kind of wasteful both money and environmentally. It is why I decided to put an additional three sided drive shaft on the new fluted mill to allow easy motorization with a drill that has a 3/8th chuck, which is still the most common motorisation method.


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