# Crown Or Birko Urns - Extra Element Installation?



## crundle (13/6/09)

I have been reading the threads on over the side immersion heaters with interest since I have discovered that during winter, boils are quite average using my 40 litre Crown urn, and I have had to resort to boiling part of the wort on the stove to get to my target gravities in reasonable time. 

It seems that although they do work, there is a question as to how long they last with the use brewers put them to, so I was wondering if anyone has any experience with fitting a second fixed element inside either the Crown or Birko urns they would be able to share?

I can get an over the side immersion heater from around the $100 mark, but I have concerns over how long it will last, but I don't know how easy it would be to fit a fixed heater coil through the side of the urn near the bottom, being such thin stainless steel sides. If they could be fitted fairly securely, it might be a better long term solution to overcoming the lack of a good boil in the Crown urn.

cheers for any advice,

Crundle


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## Thirsty Boy (13/6/09)

Over the side - they last really well and 1 x 2400W is sufficient for a "single" batch boil all by itself. You can use them as a kind of a mash paddle that has the characteristic of being able to add heat.

You just have to be sure you are mentally organised enough to remember not to pull them out of the liquid while they are switched on.

Can I ask why you don't just put the lid on a little (say half or 2/3rds of the way on) to increase your boil vigor in your current urn?? Simply adjust your starting volumes down to cater for your new lower evaporation levels. And is your kettle insulated?? If not, do it - just wrap a towel around it during the boil.

As long as you are still boiling off 8+ % of your starting volume you are fine - I really can't see that you should need any extra grunt unless there is something wrong and/or you are really in a hurry.

Still, if you want extra grunt - I'd go over the side rather than trying to install another fixed element.

TB


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## Pollux (13/6/09)

I brewed in my garage for the first time yesterday, having previously performed boils in my Crown urn in the kitchen.

I discovered my camping mat insulation was not going to be enough to help the crown have a decent boil, even with the lid 1/2 on.

So I grabbed the old sleeping bag I use to hold the mash temp, unzipped it, wrapped it round the urn over the camping mat and tucked some elastic over it.

The result was the best boil I have ever seen from the urn. The bag will now be a permanent fixture on brew day.


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## flattop (13/6/09)

I get a good boil in the kitchen, it takes a while to get there (lid on) then i take the lid off halfway and i get a rolling boil but not a huge one.
The first couple of brews i did were on the balcony (much better for spills and mess) but the last one there was a 20knot wind and it took a long time to boil up even with a sheet of cardboard as a windbreak.


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## QldKev (13/6/09)

I just don't get it.. These urms seem to be underpowered, and for the same money you can get a stock pot and a decent gas burner. Why go with the urn?

QldKev


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## flattop (13/6/09)

Ready availability of electricity without having to stuff around with gas is one reason, can still use it or sell it as an urn is another.
I don't think they are underpowered really, but yes they are bordering on their maximum tolerance, i suspect it has more to do with max current draw on a 10a power point than anything else. I'm very happy with mine, it just a matter of adjusting your brew to your gear, no big deal.


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## Bubba Q (13/6/09)

I use a 40lt Birko for BIAB and use camping mat insulation and reckon I hit a fairly decent rolling boil


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## brando (13/6/09)

I am looking to buy a 40L urn myself and can't decide between Crown and Birko. I understand that Birko has a 15amp version that pumps out around 3000w vs the 2400w of the 10amp version.

I read on here somewhere that the 15amp needs a sparkie to set up a special power point, but I spoke to one the other day and he said that it should be right with a 10amp point so long as I'm not using it for hours on end. Apparently the 15amp plug has a longer earth prong, so I guess some modification would be needed.


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## Pollux (13/6/09)

The general consensus is that the Crown has it's advantages in that the concealed element stops you from burning a bag if you choose to got the BIAB route and turn the element on while the bag is in the urn, but lacks the grunt for a hardcore boil. The birko being the opposite with it's exposed element.


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## pokolbinguy (13/6/09)

brando said:


> I read on here somewhere that the 15amp needs a sparkie to set up a special power point, but I spoke to one the other day and he said that it should be right with a 10amp point so long as I'm not using it for hours on end. Apparently the 15amp plug has a longer earth prong, so I guess some modification would be needed.



Wait for the flaming on that one mate h34r: 

To be on the safe side get a sparkie to put a 15 amp circuit in if you are going to use a 15amp element...not worth the risk and if you end up burning the house down then your insurance company won't have a bar of it.

If you want to be tight just get the sparkie to install the 15 amp plug on your power/switch board and then get yourself a heavy duty 15amp power lead to run to where you are brewing.

Pok


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## flattop (13/6/09)

15A is a wider earth pin.... really do it right and save the risk and insurance problems...


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## Thirsty Boy (13/6/09)

QldKev said:


> I just don't get it.. These urms seem to be underpowered, and for the same money you can get a stock pot and a decent gas burner. Why go with the urn?
> 
> QldKev



Stock pot - Burner - Gas Bottle - Regulator and hose 

4 bits of gear and the need for somewhere fireproof to put it all.

Urn

1 bit of gear that you can use on your kitchen table

Remember - a lot of people choose BIAB in the first place because they want to minimise space and complexity - the urn option does that nicely.

In general they aren't underpowered - maybe the Crowns with the concealed elements are a little on the light side, but all the other brands manage a rolling boil easily @ 2400W. From a few different posts - I think the issue with the crown might well be the thermostat rather than the "power" - I have made a number of beers using only a 1850W element and had no trouble maintaining a rolling boil with that ... so a 2400W urn should have no issues from a pure grunt point of view.

There do seem to be a few people having issues with the crown urns now the weather has turned cold though - we need more tips from people who are using them without issue


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## altone (13/6/09)

Err "slightly" off topic, but has anyone tried using one of those Fowlers Vacola preserving urns?
The ones with the temp controlled element.

Do they have enough grunt for a 20l plus boil ?

Just wondering as I can pick one up cheap, will probably buy it anyway.


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## Bribie G (14/6/09)

If I'm not mistaken Wonderwoman on the forum has one and may be able to comment.

As a Birko owner I get great performance and a good boil, and the bag isn't in the urn while it's powered up (I use passive lagging during a mash, and I always mash 90 mins and get very little temp drop).


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## QldKev (14/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Stock pot - Burner - Gas Bottle - Regulator and hose
> 
> 4 bits of gear and the need for somewhere fireproof to put it all.
> 
> ...




OK, I can see the idea better now. The urn is a lot better looking, like you said one peice of gear, and for people in an apartment/too cold to go outside the use inside would be really cool to use it in the house. So the tradeoff for a bit longer to get to the boil suddenly seems more understandable.

QldKev


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## Bribie G (14/6/09)

I use mine in the garage so the space / temperature thing doesn't really matter in my case, but I just love the convenience. Especially as I'm going into kegging shortly the size is perfect to do a keg plus six tallies per brew. And if I wanted to do double batches I'd happily splurge another 300 for a second urn and do a double brew in tandem, after all that's what lots of guys here pay for their march pump setups, stands, plate chillers whatever. Cheap hobby compared to renovating Monaros, windsurfing, tithing to Hillsong, brothel creeping, whatever


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## crundle (14/6/09)

Bubba Q said:


> I use a 40lt Birko for BIAB and use camping mat insulation and reckon I hit a fairly decent rolling boil



Hi Bubba Q,

I noticed in the pic that you had a camping mat around the urn. Do you have it wrapped around the urn constantly (ie not just for mashing, but boiling also) and if so, how does it stand up to the boiling temperatures?

During warmer weather, my Crown worked well enough, with an evaporation of around 7% with the lid off and 10% with the lid half over the urn, but this cold weather has really made it difficult, with very little evaporation taking place. I have tried in the past to reduce the initial amount of water to minimise the effects of a low evaporation rate, but I was getting really poor extraction from the grain, and never hitting my gravities, so I went back to using around 35 litres of water for a 5.75 kg grain bill. I am now hitting my targets well, but the downside is having to boil for longer than I would like to evaporate off enough water.

I like the idea of covering the sides of the urn with insulation to keep the heat from escaping there, and helping the evaporation rate, but it seems that with the Crown at least, the thermostat wont allow a constant rolling boil. Does the Birko keep a constant rolling boil, or is it like the Crown, where it boils for a bit, then clicks off, then gets to the boil again?

Insulation couldn't hurt, and is a nice cheap option to assist the boil as well as the mash, but during winter at least for me, I think I might need the extra help that an immersion heater can give me. I gather though that no one has put a fixed element into one of these urns?

thanks for the input all,

Crundle


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## Bubba Q (14/6/09)

crundle said:


> Hi Bubba Q,
> 
> I noticed in the pic that you had a camping mat around the urn. Do you have it wrapped around the urn constantly (ie not just for mashing, but boiling also) and if so, how does it stand up to the boiling temperatures?
> 
> ...



I have the mat on my urn constantly, it is simply attached with some cheap tie down straps from bunnings. The only drama I have had is that I wasnt paying attention during the boil and had a bit of a boil over. I simply unstrapped it and gave it a rinse afterwards. It hasnt melted onto the sides if thats what you are worried about.

With the birko I have no drama's hitting a rolling boil and keeping it that way without the thermo kicking in.


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## crundle (14/6/09)

Thanks for that Bubba Q, I will head down to Clark rubber tomorrow to look over what they have. Will see if I can work out some way to cover the lid also for the mash (will also still use the doonah over the top of the whole shebang for mashing)

Crundle


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## Renegade (15/6/09)

While on the Urn topic, BribieG do you find that with the exposed element that it's harder to clean ? I find that even if I steep grains or do a mini mash in a saucepan, after I strain the husks off, that ensuing boil often leaves small patches of bkack burnt on gunk on the bottom. Not enough to taint the beer flavour, but a pain to clean (lots of elbow grease) . You may have no such instances with a bag for all I know. 

And if you get a chance, is it possible to take a picture of the Birko's internal base with the element ? im leaning towards the Birko (later in the year) because it makes sense that an exposed element will be a bit more efficient. Just wondering about the cleaning.


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## Bubba Q (15/6/09)

Renegade said:


> While on the Urn topic, BribieG do you find that with the exposed element that it's harder to clean ? I find that even if I steep grains or do a mini mash in a saucepan, after I strain the husks off, that ensuing boil often leaves small patches of bkack burnt on gunk on the bottom. Not enough to taint the beer flavour, but a pain to clean (lots of elbow grease) . You may have no such instances with a bag for all I know.
> 
> And if you get a chance, is it possible to take a picture of the Birko's internal base with the element ? im leaning towards the Birko (later in the year) because it makes sense that an exposed element will be a bit more efficient. Just wondering about the cleaning.









cleaning is fairly easy, I just use a standard kitchen scouring pad on the element and it works a treat.


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## Renegade (15/6/09)

Thnaks BribieG, Im really quite convinced from all the feedback that the Birko is marginally advantageous for this purpose (that is, for BIAB)

Was actually looking at the 3000 watt model (often the same prices at many places) but didnt know you need to change the circutry in your house. Im a renter, so stuff that, I wont be spending any money on the place.


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## Renegade (15/6/09)

I also notice BribieG that you dont have a tube connected on the inside to the tap like Pollux does. From the outside, these urns look like the tap is mounted quite high. Do you lose a couple of litres (probably avoiding the trub, so that would actually work in your favour, yea?) or are the pics misleading and is the base hollowed out in the underside and filled with the electronics ?


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## Bribie G (15/6/09)

Renegade said:


> And if you get a chance, is it possible to take a picture of the Birko's internal base with the element ? im leaning towards the Birko (later in the year) because it makes sense that an exposed element will be a bit more efficient. Just wondering about the cleaning.





Yup one of those green scratchy pads is fine, but I'm getting a bit of chalky 'haze' here and there. However you can get an urn cleaner from catering companies - a bit like an electric iron / kettle descaler I suppose. Don't need it yet.



Renegade said:


> I also notice BribieG that you dont have a tube connected on the inside to the tap like Pollux does. From the outside, these urns look like the tap is mounted quite high. Do you lose a couple of litres (probably avoiding the trub, so that would actually work in your favour, yea?) or are the pics misleading and is the base hollowed out in the underside and filled with the electronics ?



Yes a lot of the base is electronics. I don't lose a lot to trub because with using Whirlfloc and a bit of a rest before draining I get nearly all the wort, with a bit of tipping. However as a tweak I collect the last litre into a sterilized lab bottle (Schott Bottle) and keep it next to the cube to cool down and settle out, and decant off the clear part into the fermenter at pitchin' time along with the cube contents:




And for the really ugly shot, here's what's left, probably about less than a litre. After draining and washing with some 'blast' most of that grey stuff comes off the element, it's not burned on, just sort of caked on and the green pad takes off the rest.




Edit: you can just make out that the level of the spent goop is a fair way below the tap outlet.


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## flattop (15/6/09)

I don't get much wort lost to trub, i use a pool filter (like a sock) and can tilt the urn right over, drain the wort through the sock and then only trub is left with very little liquid.
Crundle was going to try my method, not sure if he has yet, but i get a fairly clear wort.
That said, i have noticed my fermenter trub is much bigger since i moved from kits to AG but i figure that it's just the finer grain flour getting through the filter.
I still get very clear beer from most of the bottle....


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## crundle (15/6/09)

I gave it a try flattop, but not sure if I had the right material. It was from Woolies supermarket, in the pool section, elastic bags that had a fair bit of stretch in them, with a fine weave. I tried it in the neck of the cube, but it filled up with trub and I had trouble getting it out of the neck of the cube without emptying it first. Next brew I will try it again, but will tie the sock over the tap to catch the last litre only.

As far as cold break, the last beer I did ended up with break material up to the 7 litre mark on the fermenter, but it was really fluffy, it subsequently settled down to 2 litres, and will probably end up even less than that after a few days in the fridge to chill it before kegging.

Crundle


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## flattop (15/6/09)

They are the right ones, mine fill up sometimes also, there is a bit of an art to it, control the flow- watch to see if it's filling up, my cube (which is a Jerry) has 2 necks so i fill one and then the other.
Sometimes i pull it out and rinse it and put it in again...
I used whirfloc with the last brew i also waited 10 mins before draining and that helped as most of the trub settle faster.
That brew in particular i had no problems, 1 sock only and all the wort drained through, then i bumped the tap off the cube and lost a litre.

Oh and you do have to be careful pulling out, it can fill up and spill over....
I think the results are worth it but it can be fiddly.


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## seravitae (15/6/09)

I had an idea the other day for easily adding new elements to containers.. Maybe it will help someone here..

Buy a 1" female BSP to 1/2" female BSP adapter. screw the element (male BSP) into the adapter after adding some short wiring and feed it through the adapter. screw the 1/2" female over the male BB bulkhead, slide it through your drilled hole and fasten it...


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## flattop (15/6/09)

huh?


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## seravitae (15/6/09)

stick one of those thru the wall of the container - that gives you a leak-free hole with threading on both sides. then you can get threaded elements and use an adapter/coupler to join them.


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## Bribie G (15/6/09)

Don't worry about cold break. Cold break is the best yeast nutrient and is designed by God to be an integral part of the wort when you pitch.


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## crundle (15/6/09)

sera said:


> stick one of those thru the wall of the container - that gives you a leak-free hole with threading on both sides. then you can get threaded elements and use an adapter/coupler to join them.



Yeah, this is something I was thinking about as an option to get more heating in the urn, but now I think I am tending towards getting an over the side immersion heater in preference to adding another element permanently. If anyone could stuff up and end up ruining their urn, it would be me. My track record of things not working well is long and well documented! The over the side immersion heaters seem to be cheap enough, flexible enough in their application, and wont potentially ruin the urn.

As for cold break, I am with you BribieG, it has been in all my AG beers, and they have been fine.

cheers,

Crundle


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## Renegade (16/6/09)

fook BribieG, My siceresetest 'pologisin's, mate. I just noticed that I was responding to BubbaQ's picture and not yours, The internet browser was a half-mast earlier, I shape it so there's no user name icons, just text, so the boss doesnt see me so blatantly bludging on the internet.

Thanks you though BubbaQ. Your second outer rod looks more bent that his  

I think I'll go "Birko". And look out for the BIAB 'Urners' WIKI. 

That Schott bottle of wort looks really clear !


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## crundle (16/6/09)

I have gone out and bought a 4108B 2400W over the side immersion element to supplement the boil of the Crown urn, and will pick up the camping mat foam today on the way to work.

Winter brewing - here I come!!!

Crundle


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## Thirsty Boy (16/6/09)

remember that you will still need to be careful which circuit you are running the extra element on - most peoples houses are better than mine, but I have a total of 20A before my fuse kicks in .. so I could do two 2400W elements - but I'd have to turn everything else in teh house off first. So I cant. Even if your house is better than mine... you still might not be able to run more than 20A through any given circuit. So you might need to to make sure the one you are using for your brewing doesn't have any other gear running off it. Or run an extension lead from a power point on a different circuit.

Or you might not - modern houses probably have heaps more available juice than mine.

You 4800W will probably be too much for your boil .. I suspect you will end up turning the urn off and using the element by itself. A bit of a PITA but if its only an issue during the winter months.. not too bad I suppose. You certainly have heating grunt to spare now.


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## Bribie G (16/6/09)

When I'm running the 2400 urn and need to boil a kettle as well (at the same twin power point) I have to turn the urn off otherwise it will trip the ELCB. Boiling a kettle in the kitchen instead works fine. You should have seen me at midnight last night getting the temp up after my protein rest and sprinting between kitchen and garage with kettles  Maybe you can run an extension lead from an adjacent room for the add-on.


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## QldKev (16/6/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> remember that you will still need to be careful which circuit you are running the extra element on - most peoples houses are better than mine, but I have a total of 20A before my fuse kicks in .. so I could do two 2400W elements - but I'd have to turn everything else in teh house off first. So I cant. Even if your house is better than mine... you still might not be able to run more than 20A through any given circuit. So you might need to to make sure the one you are using for your brewing doesn't have any other gear running off it. Or run and extension lead from a power point on a different circuit.
> 
> Or you might not - modern houses probably have heaps more available juice than mine.
> 
> You 4800W will probably be too much for your boil .. I suspect you will end up turning the urn off and using the element by itself. A bit of a PITA but if its only an issue during the winter months.. not too bad I suppose. You certainly have heating grunt to spare now.




20A what a luxury, we have to put up with 16A on our power circuit. .... and I still get a $650 power bill!!!!

QldKev


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## flattop (16/6/09)

Beat me to it TB... look the trick is if you want to run a couple of different appliances that you need to find 2 individual circuits, i run my urn from one powerpoint and then if i boil the kettle i use another powerpoint which is on a different circuit.
It's easy to work it out, if you turn 2 things on at once and it pops the breaker then they are on the same line, run an extension cord from another room and you will probably be on another line.....
Newer houses will have several powerpoint lines...

Oh QLDKEV, if you want 20 amps you'll find it around the hotplate or oven, you could tap into those circuits as long as you run the urn OR the oven, run both and it will blow the fuse....


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## QldKev (16/6/09)

flattop said:


> Oh QLDKEV, if you want 20 amps you'll find it around the hotplate or oven, you could tap into those circuits as long as you run the urn OR the oven, run both and it will blow the fuse....



Good idea, just went had a look 
we have 
1 x 16 for power
2 x 16 for lights - why two???
1 x 16 HWS
1 x 32 Stove.. 

I think I found some extra power 

QldKev


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## Thirsty Boy (16/6/09)

QldKev said:


> Good idea, just went had a look
> we have
> 1 x 16 for power
> 2 x 16 for lights - why two???
> ...



hah!! - and you derided my lack of power. We have a separate circuit for the lights - but for power its 20A total (and this is because I replaced the circuit breaker from 16A and pray the house doesn't burn down....) . Dishwasher plus kettle plus _anything_ else = tripping the power

If I had 32A for the stove that would get run down to my brewery so fast the wife wouldn't have time to say "what about dinner you bastard...."


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## crundle (17/6/09)

Good point about the power supply tripping out guys, I have organised to run a thick extension lead from another circuit to power the immersion element.

My plan is to use the thermostat controlled element to reach mashing temperature and to raise up to mashout, then with the grain bag removed, to turn off the thermostat controlled element and to boil using the immersion element only. This should address the main issue I am having, of the rolling boil just starting then being switched off. 2400W should be plenty to get a good rolling boil, so 1 element should be enough. i think if I tried to run both, that the thermostat controlled one wouldn't do much work anyway, because the temperature of boiling water would cut power to it.

Crundle


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## Bribie G (17/6/09)

QldKev said:


> I think I found some extra power
> 
> QldKev



_Apollo 13 this is Houston, we have found that extra power for you, now here's the re-entry plan....._....

ok it's obviously time to get off my bum and do some brewing.


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## crundle (6/7/09)

Well, I have just brewed my first beer since getting a camping mat for the Crown, and also gave the 4108B immersion element a crack - wow!

Was brewing outside and it got a great boil going, even without the immersion element. I had both going to get it boiling faster, but had to disconnect the immersion element or it would have boiled over the sides. Once the level had gone down a touch, I used both and was getting an evaporation rate of about 17%/hour.

It cost me $10 for the camping mat, and $82.50 for the element, so a nice cheap way to upgrade the urn.

Can anyone tell me what the maximum volume of wort that can be reasonably boiled with a single 2400W element? Just thinking ahead if I ever have the need to upgrade to do double batches, what the largest boiler size could be.....

Pics of the brewday




























Crundle


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## muckanic (6/7/09)

crundle said:


> Can anyone tell me what the maximum volume of wort that can be reasonably boiled with a single 2400W element? Just thinking ahead if I ever have the need to upgrade to do double batches, what the largest boiler size could be.....



About 35L uninsulated, with double batches possible with appropriate insulation and maybe partial lid on depending upon ambient conditions. Starting off with hot tap water makes life a heck of a lot easier.

Still getting my head around this notion of "tapping into" the oven or HWS circuits. :blink:


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## smollocks (6/7/09)

crundle can you tell me where you found the camping mat? I've tried GoLo (no luck) and Clark Rubber only had yoga mats for $80 or thinner mats for about $20-$25.

It seems that the Crown is getting a reputation here for being underpowered, but my experience doesn't entirely support that. Here's my data, for what it's worth. My first BIAB brew in the Crown I did get periodic pauses in boiling as the thermostat shut off the element. It only happened toward the end of the boil and I got 6.7% evaporation as a result. 

My theory was that the shutoffs were caused by the thermostat getting coated with a film of hardened wort. This causes a higher local temperature at the thermostat than in the bulk wort, and it thinks it can hold back on the boil. Alternatively, too much hardened wort on the element might cause the element to overheat and shut off to prevent a fault.

To try and prevent this, I sat a cake stand over the element & thermostat before the mash to keep the bag and grain from settling on top of them. After removing the bag I also gave the element a few scrapes with a spoon to remove any wort that might have settled on the element but not yet hardened. This is not scientific proof, but in the 2 brews since doing this I've not seen the problem recur despite increasing my boil to 80 minutes. I brew inside but next to a door open to the outside, with a fan blowing the steam out the door. The boil has been vigorous and continuous, with evaporation rates of 13% and 11%.

So far I'm quite happy with the Crown urn.


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## smollocks (6/7/09)

And maybe this is just me, but I don't see why everyone believes winter weather would cause the urn to boil less. I would have thought that colder ambient temperatures would cause greater heat loss to the environment, making it harder for the urn to reach boiling point, and therefore causing it to boil longer & harder.


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## captaincleanoff (6/7/09)

smollocks said:


> I would have thought that colder ambient temperatures would cause greater heat loss to the environment, making it harder for the urn to reach boiling point, and therefore causing it to boil longer & harder.



:unsure:


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## Wolfy (6/7/09)

smollocks said:


> And maybe this is just me, but I don't see why everyone believes winter weather would cause the urn to boil less. I would have thought that colder ambient temperatures would cause greater heat loss to the environment, making it harder for the urn to reach boiling point, and therefore causing it to boil longer & harder.


With colder ambient temps and more heat loss, the urn has to put in more energy to get the liquid to boil.
If the urn was already struggling to get a decent boil going, it will be worse with colder ambient temp due to the additional heat loss - that's why it's called heat loss, the heat is lost to the environment rather than going into making your liquid boil.
If you insulate the urn those losses and the ambient temp should be mostly irrelevant.


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## flattop (6/7/09)

I get a boil on my Crown but i have to admit it doesn't hit 100*c it hovers around 95* with the lid off. I haven't been using my campers mat while i boil inside as there is no crosswind unlike my balcony, but i had a 120 min boil yesterday and still didn't hit my numbers as well as i would like so i think next brew the campers mat goes back on.

For those who asked, Reject shop and Aussie disposals sell cheap ones.


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## smollocks (6/7/09)

Wolfy said:


> With colder ambient temps and more heat loss, the urn has to put in more energy to get the liquid to boil.
> If the urn was already struggling to get a decent boil going, it will be worse with colder ambient temp due to the additional heat loss - that's why it's called heat loss, the heat is lost to the environment rather than going into making your liquid boil.
> If you insulate the urn those losses and the ambient temp should be mostly irrelevant.



Agreed, but from my understanding it's not that the urn is going full-bore non-stop and still cannot reach a boil. The issue is that it's reaching a boil, and then cutting out intermittently. To me it acted more as if the thermostat reached the set temperature and then switched off. Happy to be corrected if that's not others' experience, but it is mine.


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## flattop (6/7/09)

I think your point is relevant, the crown does cycle power. I wonder if it is the trub, creating a blanket of insulation over the temp probe.
I don't agree that the probe is getting a baked on cake of crud, mine always seems clean enough when i clean the urn.
Important to note though that the heat source is at the bottom of the urn and we measure temp at the top, i know heat rises but the wort is thicker than water and it's possible the trub is creating hot spots causing the urn to cycle. I guess a false bottom would assist in reducing that, it would be nice to have a trub bucket at the bottom below the element!


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## Wolfy (6/7/09)

smollocks said:


> Agreed, but from my understanding it's not that the urn is going full-bore non-stop and still cannot reach a boil. The issue is that it's reaching a boil, and then cutting out intermittently. To me it acted more as if the thermostat reached the set temperature and then switched off. Happy to be corrected if that's not others' experience, but it is mine.


Ahh fair enough, I did not think of that, my (Roband?) urn has a dial with markings up to 120deg, so I just crank it all the way up and have no problems.


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## crundle (7/7/09)

The Crown has markings up to 110 degrees, but just from experience it performs worse in the cold than in the warmer months.

I got the camping mat from Kmart at Collonades shopping centre for $10. It makes a real difference to the vigor of the boil, but I only have data based on the following.

With no mat or extra element, I was getting 7.6% per hour boil off (warmer weather)
with the mat and extra element I am getting about 17% per hour (cold weather) - I am thinking that the extra element, keeping the water boiling, actually left very little work for the internal element to do.

It would be interesting to see what difference the mat alone makes, maybe something to try for my next brew, but I did see a difference in boil vigor with the mat and the Crown internal element going prior to using the immersion, but didn't get a chance to measure it objectively. I guess that there is some correlation between weather and boil rate, I will have to google that one.

Crundle


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## nvs-brews (3/12/14)

anyone know what watt is in a 20L birko?


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