# Foam fermentation chamber



## Mattrox (22/1/16)

As it happens I have some 75mm foam with the reflective insulation glued on left over from a previous project.

The off cuts have been annoying me. And I really want to get my 2nd fermenter going. I decided that I'd measure up the fermenter and roughly cut the foam.

For the weekend: liquid nails, silicone sealer and insulation tape. I'll use the circular saw to make the final cuts as it leaves a relatively smooth finish.





This should make something suitable to hold temperatures where I need them.


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## crowmanz (22/1/16)

included some space to put frozen water bottles?


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## Mattrox (22/1/16)

crowmanz said:


> included some space to put frozen water bottles?


Yep!


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## Mattrox (24/1/16)

A bit of a rough job, but it should work.


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## Mattrox (24/1/16)

I got itchy feet. Had to put it to use.


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## Mattrox (24/1/16)

Oh, instead of liquid nails use silicone. I don't remember the solvent of liquid nails eating into the foam last time I used it, but it does. I'm sure it is going to cure fine though.

Ice bottles pull down the air temp really quickly. Testing out the FV from 35 with a bag of Ice. I usually can get 24 or so when I fridge the top up water. (Kits and bits brewing.)

Maintaining temp should be no problem though.


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## Mattrox (25/1/16)

Now that the wort is down to temperature, it's been holding steady all day. I removed some ice bottles for re-freezing this morning, but haven't had the add any back. The remainder of the bag of ice is still in there.


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## Bribie G (25/1/16)

Great jobbie. I love fermentation chambers, a lot of people just don't seem to _*get*_ the concept and have fermentors sitting in canvas buckets with ice or in laundry tubs with fans blowing on wet towels ... not really appreciating that they are largely just cooling down the air in the garage and not so much the beer in the fermentor.

I've currently got a chamber I made out of a cardboard tea chest sized packing carton and bubble wrap, further wrapped in my urn mash doonah, and frozen bottles. Holding nicely about 19 but it frightens small children and wouldn't mind having a bash at a foam job. Where would you get offcuts or sheets of that thickness?


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## spog (25/1/16)

Mattrox said:


> Oh, instead of liquid nails use silicone. I don't remember the solvent of liquid nails eating into the foam last time I used it, but it does. I'm sure it is going to cure fine though.
> Ice bottles pull down the air temp really quickly. Testing out the FV from 35 with a bag of Ice. I usually can get 24 or so when I fridge the top up water. (Kits and bits brewing.)
> Maintaining temp should be no problem though.


Liquid nails sets hard and that's it's biggest problem ,setting hard doesn't allow for movement .
Silicone is the way to go to hold/ seal the joints but it doesn't bond very well to polystyrene as in strength,back it up with some wide cloth bonded tape over the joints and your good to go.


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## Dae Tripper (25/1/16)

So where does one get said panels from?


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## Mattrox (25/1/16)

spog said:


> Liquid nails sets hard and that's it's biggest problem ,setting hard doesn't allow for movement .
> Silicone is the way to go to hold/ seal the joints but it doesn't bond very well to polystyrene as in strength,back it up with some wide cloth bonded tape over the joints and your good to go.


Thanks for the tip. [emoji106]


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## Mattrox (25/1/16)

Dae Tripper said:


> So where does one get said panels from?


Google polystyrene insulation sheets, that's how I found mine, a local company manufactured them.

You can order them various thicknesses. 75mm is overkill for this application. They have a standard width they do and a minimum height. They glue the silver on.


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## breakbeer (25/1/16)

Just another tip regarding the use of silicone on polystyrene 

There are generally two types. Neutral Cure & Acetic Cure, make sure you get the Neutral type


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## Mattrox (26/1/16)

Bribie G said:


> Great jobbie. I love fermentation chambers, a lot of people just don't seem to _*get*_ the concept and have fermentors sitting in canvas buckets with ice or in laundry tubs with fans blowing on wet towels ... not really appreciating that they are largely just cooling down the air in the garage and not so much the beer in the fermentor.
> 
> I've currently got a chamber I made out of a cardboard tea chest sized packing carton and bubble wrap, further wrapped in my urn mash doonah, and frozen bottles. Holding nicely about 19 but it frightens small children and wouldn't mind having a bash at a foam job. Where would you get offcuts or sheets of that thickness?


I'm not sure if a building surplus outlet would have offcuts etc.

You might have to order a whole sheet from a manufacturer. I'm sure 50mm would work quite nicely and would be slightly cheaper. 

I had to take a 1.25L ice bottle out tonight as the temperature was dropping too low. Just the remnants of the ice bag.


*I wrote the post last night and forgot to press reply before putting phone down.


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## Barge (26/1/16)

It's probably a bit late but I would recommend going with this

https://www.google.com.au/url?q=http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/images/chiller-plans.pdf&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjhpdrrk8fKAhVGlZQKHUJICK0QFggLMAA&sig2=hgxadsoX-Twb_2shUn2Pwg&usg=AFQjCNHCQHHShBUWk_mwmdNUwzpu7xg6lg

(Sorry for the dodgy link - I'm on my phone. edit - link looks worse when typing the post)

I've wanted to build one for ages but ended up buying one from Westo. Works a treat. I've been brewing all summer at a steady 18C.


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## Mattrox (27/1/16)

I'm pretty happy with this. It was at 18.7 this morning with no ice in the bag and the 1.25L bottle from yesterday melted.

I put a 2 L bottle in early this morning. When direct sun started hitting it the temp started rising . It 18.4 then drifted up to 18.6. I put another 1.25L in and this afternoon the temp was 18.2 and falling. I have pulled out the 1.25L now. There is ice still left in both bottles.

I might put a fresh 1.25 in for overnight.


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## Grainer (27/1/16)

Just saw hundreds of fridge panels at work on a construction site.. waiting for decomissioning to build a little cool room.hopefully the will give me a heap.


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## manticle (27/1/16)

Another easy-ish way of making a poly sty chamber would be to make some timber panels, line with polystyrene sheets that are glued with pva, leaving enough clean timber to join the edges with glue and/or screws and make a box. PVA won't eat the styrene.


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## manticle (27/1/16)

And cut poly with a sharp knife. Look after your saw better.


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## Mattrox (27/1/16)

manticle said:


> Another easy-ish way of making a poly sty chamber would be to make some timber panels, line with polystyrene sheets that are glued with pva, leaving enough clean timber to join the edges with glue and/or screws and make a box. PVA won't eat the styrene.


I did think of framing it up. I wanted it fairly light weight and portable. Plus I didn't have the timber on hand, and the budget for this was $0 and I blew that on adhesive and tape. I was forgiven for that indiscretion [emoji13][emoji12].

Timber would make it way more durable and is probably the way to go for a more permanent unit.


I went with the saw over a sharp knife due to the 75mm and it made straight clean cut. A timber saw works reasonably well too.


If I were to make 1 from scratch, I'd get a sheet both sides silvered and make it a group buy.


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## manticle (27/1/16)

However it works, it works so good stuff.


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## Feldon (27/1/16)

These 12 volt (Peltier?) cooling systems were posted in the eBay thread recently (thanks, whoever it was).





http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Solar-DC12V-Semiconductor-Refrigeration-Pet-Air-Conditioner-Cooler-ECO-/351633459770?hash=item51defcca3a:g:JVgAAOSw7ThUc918

I was wondering if, with the addition of an STC 1000, they might make a good enhancement to the foam cooler box as a replacement (or partial replacement) of the frozen water bottles.

The vendor states at the bottom of his eBay page details of an experiment he made by putting a unit in a cardboard box (size 29cm x 19cm x 17cm). Says he had the temp drop from 9.2C to 4.2C in 20 minutes (see pics above).

How this device would cope with the gentle heat generated by an active ale fermentation I’m not sure. But if it did it would be a good small footprint and low energy alternative to a fermentation fridge (note that the vendor says its "zero cost, free energy", ha)

Just thought I’d chuck the idea out there for those interested.


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## Dae Tripper (27/1/16)

Actually that is what I had in mind! There is a double one that should cool quicker. Your theory is sound, just like a car type fridge.


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## Mattrox (27/1/16)

That sounds like a good idea. I don't think I'll do that as this is "just a spare". You would want a better sealing lid than I made though if you were going to "permanently" run with a powered chamber though.


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## Dae Tripper (27/1/16)

Ok so I am pulling the trigger on this one. I have two of these boxes and when I clamshell them together will fit my stumpy fermenter perfectly. Got it going at 10:20pm. It doesn't have an inside fan but hey cold air sinks.


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## Dae Tripper (27/1/16)

Right, well it had problems dropping temps so hopefully an addition of this fan will do the job. New experiment begings 11:25pm


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## Dae Tripper (28/1/16)

Well that was a massive fail. 
Without fan = Fail.
With fan = Fail.
Thought the old cell may have been on the fritz and replaced it with a new one = Fail with or with out fan.

GGGRRRR Stupid science, you have be baffled again. Wouldn't go below 22 degrees even though the fins where cold. It may have possibly been the fan speed to high and then to low with it off. Maybe I need a better heat sink.

I will point out that the ones on ebay may still work. Heck I might even buy the double bunger next fortnight. 

Does anyone think it would be worthwhile putting something in the chamber aswell or has this type of temp control that is working?


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## manticle (28/1/16)

What temp is your wort when you put it in the chamber?
If it's 20 - 22 your chamber is working well 
Get it to 16, add yeast, put it in your chamber, see what happens then.


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## Dae Tripper (29/1/16)

There was no wort in there, it was empty. I was trying to cool the air to prove the theory of it all.


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## manticle (29/1/16)

I'm with you.
Was the temperature constant though or did it fluctuate?


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## Dae Tripper (29/1/16)

It was a fairly constant 22 but I wasn't watching like a hawk. Dropped only about 3 degrees. Is there anything you want me to test?


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## manticle (29/1/16)

Just thinking about its insulation properties. If it will keep a constant over a period of time, it might still do what you need.

Try placing 10+ litres of water at 10- 16 deg and measure fluctuations over 2-3 days. Opening and shutting the chamber will affect the insulation properties somewhat obviously.


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## Barge (29/1/16)

Feldon said:


> The vendor states at the bottom of his eBay page details of an experiment he made by putting a unit in a cardboard box (size 29cm x 19cm x 17cm). Says he had the temp drop from 9.2C to 4.2C in 20 minutes (see pics above).


A 5 celcius drop in a small box does not bode well for using this as a cooling device for fermentation. The box would be larger and have an active heat source inside it. You would need to do some calculations but at a guess you would need a few of these for it to work under reasonable conditions. ie 23C ambient down to 18C. In summer, forget it. Cooling down from 30+C, you would have no chance.


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## timmi9191 (29/1/16)

Why not use the same concept but vent cool air from inside a fridge or freezer...


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## Mattrox (29/1/16)

Barge said:


> A 5 celcius drop in a small box does not bode well for using this as a cooling device for fermentation. The box would be larger and have an active heat source inside it. You would need to do some calculations but at a guess you would need a few of these for it to work under reasonable conditions. ie 23C ambient down to 18C. In summer, forget it. Cooling down from 30+C, you would have no chance.


Where as in my experiment, 2.5 kg of ice brought down 35 to 21 overnight and 2kg of ice can pull 19 down to 17 during a gentle ferment. 

Replacing ice isn't automated and you have to work out what size bottle(s) to put in. But jeez it works.



However, for winter, I scored a 350W water bed heater. Connected to an STC 1000 that will be ample to do the job. Overkill even.


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## Dae Tripper (31/1/16)

So I have been doing some science and results are as follows 

Empty Chamber Results
With fan - 0850 start 25.1
- 1204 23.9

Without fan - 1205 23.9
- 1256 25.1
- 1408 25

With 10L of water in chamber 
Day 1 - 1500 Air 24.1 Water 15.4
- 1638 A 18.5 W 16.2
- 1756 A 19.2 W 16.9
Day 2 - 0700 A 19.7 W 19.9
Day 3 - 0719 A 22.2 W 22.1

And there you have it  
It is woth noting that the cool side measured 1.5 degrees at times.

I will attempt again with better quality coolers and maybe a double cooler one day.


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## LAGERFRENZY (31/1/16)

A ready-made alternative if you want temperature control that works (keeps my brews at a constant 18 C in Brissie summer are these things from Ebay (they aren't cheap but i can recommend the quality of the manufacture):

Sorry if I hijacked the thread - I only just noticed that this was part of a DIY Projects heading...


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