# Bu:gu And Balance Value



## Bogan333 (2/5/12)

What numbers should I be trying to achieve in a AG German Lager regards to BU:GU and Balance Value ?.
The program I'm using is BrewMate v 1.22.


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## Screwtop (2/5/12)

georgecopley said:


> What numbers should I be trying to achieve in a AG German Lager regards to BU:GU and Balance Value ?.
> The program I'm using is BrewMate v 1.22.




From .83 for a Helles to 1.64 for a North German Pilsener

Sweetness/Bitterness Value Formula


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## Dazza88 (2/5/12)

When you pick a style hover over the balance value and brewmate will report the mid level bal value for that style.


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## punkin (2/5/12)

DazDog said:


> When you pick a style hover over the balance value and brewmate will report the mid level bal value for that style.



That's just cool. Thanks, i'll use that all the time for abv and bitterness and all. Never knew that was there B)


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## Muscovy_333 (2/5/12)

punkin said:


> That's just cool. Thanks, i'll use that all the time for abv and bitterness and all. Never knew that was there B)




Me neither!
Thankyou..I have been curious about this for a while.

Tick another thing off the "research list" for the time being 

Thankya


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## dicko (2/5/12)

Hi Guys,

I have Brewmate V 1.22 and I have noted what has been said above.

I just entered a style "Australian Pale Ale" and get a BV of 2.25 ?????

Then I enter an "Australian Lager" and get a BV of 0.93

I would imagine that to get a BV of 2.25 on an Aussie Pale Ale the hops would be climbing out of the glass and would not be to style in fact I would imagine it to be undrinkable.

For example in support of the above the program lists a value of 1.61 for an APA and 1.74 for a German Pils.

Is this figure an error in the software?????? or am I wrong ????

Cheers


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## NickB (2/5/12)

I would think the software was way out.

Anything approaching 1:1 would be too bitter for the majority of styles.

IPA being the exception of course.

Balanced would be around .5 for most styles, with less being more malty, more being bitterer.

Cheers


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## bignath (2/5/12)

sounds to me like many are getting confused with the "balance value" and the "bu:gu" levels. Displayed as two very separate things in Brewmate.

A beer with a BU:GU Ratio of .9 for example would be considered quite hoppy, but a "Balance Value" of .9 would be VERY malt driven, and probably not have any where near enough hops.

An example: I have a 100% cube hopped Cascade recipe open in Brewmate at the moment, and the BU:GU ratio is .9, but the "Balance Value" is 2. something.


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## Dazza88 (2/5/12)

I guess they might b inverses so if bu.gu is0.66 then balance would be 1.51. Just a guess as i dont have the program in front me.


Edit. Not quite, bv also account for fg, see link below. 
balance value calc


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## dicko (2/5/12)

Big Nath said:


> sounds to me like many are getting confused with the "balance value" and the "bu:gu" levels. Displayed as two very separate things in Brewmate.
> 
> A beer with a BU:GU Ratio of .9 for example would be considered quite hoppy, but a "Balance Value" of .9 would be VERY malt driven, and probably not have any where near enough hops.
> 
> An example: I have a 100% cube hopped Cascade recipe open in Brewmate at the moment, and the BU:GU ratio is .9, but the "Balance Value" is 2. something.



The BV value is indicated in Brewmate by hovering the cursor over that panel.
If you open Brewmate with a new window to create a new recipe then click the drop down menu and select Australian Pale Ale and then place your cursor over the BV panel you will note it gives you the figure.
This value is an average indicator directly related to the style.
You don't need any ingredients entered to obtain this figure.
The BV value on your recipe is what you pesonally achieved with the formulation of your own recipe.
It is obviously hoppy enough to give this BV reading.
I don't think we are confusing BU:GU withBV.

Cheers


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## dicko (2/5/12)

NickB said:


> I would think the software was way out.
> 
> Anything approaching 1:1 would be too bitter for the majority of styles.
> 
> ...



I dont think the software is way out but I am querying the BV for an Australian Pale Ale.
Without checking each and every style the figures appear to be generally close to spec.

I have emailed the program writer with this query and i will post here when I get a reply.

Cheers


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## dicko (2/5/12)

DazDog said:


> I guess they might b inverses so if bu.gu is0.66 then balance would be 1.51. Just a guess as i dont have the program in front me.
> 
> 
> Edit. Not quite, bv also account for fg, see link below.
> balance value calc




Thats a great link, very easy to read and use,
Thanks


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## NickB (2/5/12)

My software (BeerAlchemy) only has BU:GU

Cheers


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## Screwtop (2/5/12)

DazDog said:


> I guess they might b inverses so if bu.gu is0.66 then balance would be 1.51. Just a guess as i dont have the program in front me.
> 
> 
> Edit. Not quite, bv also account for fg, see link below.
> balance value calc




Began using the Balance Value Formula years ago for my brewing, best thing ever. This formula uses predicted Sweetness (FG) to formulate the bitterness (IBU"s) required for balance for the style.

The brewer needs to be able to accurately predict FG based upon the amount of dextrinous malt in the gristbill and mash temp. A brew system which is able to produce repeatable results is necessary along with experience using different yeast strains and fermentation management.

Created my own Calculator years ago (like the link above) in Access containing BJCP style data.

Screwy


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## DKS (2/5/12)

Well thank you to screwtop, NickB and others.
After a few years of looking through the gurus recipes, Jamils recipes included, the BU : GU value has been mostly ignored.Its all been about OG , FG, grain bill, temps and yeast ect. 
Why dont they specify the balance? Surely its just as important factor as anything else. 
It seems alot is assumed if you use their grain bill and hop schedual you will end up as a USA national award winning brewer.
Even BJCP dont consider or publish BU:GU in their detail.

I think its an important componant to recipe formulation and overlooked as a valuable componant to any style.


Yes , I am a go by the numbers brewer. Screwy had me pegged as an engineer years ago, but for me thats how you know whats goin on, for better or worse. Artist I aint.
Give us a BU:GU on every beer I say.Valuable info surely.
Daz


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## NickB (2/5/12)

+1 Daz.

I always look at the BU:GU especially on styles I'm not familiar with.

Makes it much easier to get the bitterness/maltiness in the ball park of where you're aiming.

Cheers


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## Screwtop (2/5/12)

NickB said:


> +1 Daz.
> 
> I always look at the BU:GU especially on styles I'm not familiar with.
> 
> ...




And eee no's e's stuff!

Screwy


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## manticle (2/5/12)

DKS said:


> Well thank you to screwtop, NickB and others.
> After a few years of looking through the gurus recipes, Jamils recipes included, the BU : GU value has been mostly ignored.Its all been about OG , FG, grain bill, temps and yeast ect.
> Why dont they specify the balance? Surely its just as important factor as anything else.
> It seems alot is assumed if you use their grain bill and hop schedual you will end up as a USA national award winning brewer.
> ...



Funny, I'm the opposite. Numbers can't tell you what your palate and experience can, any more than they can in cooking. They can give you an indication of preferred levels, a reference point etc but there's no substitute, in my mind for learning about your ingredients and how to balance them or make them work together.

That said, I still believe in grasping the concept, applying the principles and knowing the background. Use of formulae themselves is up to the brewer.


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## iralosavic (2/5/12)

By the calculator's standards, most of my lagers are hoppier than an IPA. Hmm


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## Nick JD (2/5/12)

IMO, BU:GU is a rough guide at best, and a complete waste of time at worst. As an example (2 SMaSH brews):

Batch 1: Mashed at 70C and bittered to 25 IBUs

Batch 2: Mashed at 62C and bittered to 25 IBUs

Both have the same BU:GU figures but one will be malty and thick and sweet, and one will be dry and bitter and thin.

BU:GU is crap unless it compensates for FG (mash temp and attenuation).


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## NickB (2/5/12)

But on that note too Nick, I'd say most calculations done through brewing software would be approximations at best as I don't think many take mash temp into consideration.

Happy to be corrected though.

I use BU:GU as a guide, then brew the beer, then adjust next time as necessary.

Cheers


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## DKS (2/5/12)

manticle said:


> Funny, I'm the opposite. Numbers can't tell you what your palate and experience can, any more than they can in cooking. They can give you an indication of preferred levels, a reference point etc but there's no substitute, in my mind for learning about your ingredients and how to balance them or make them work together.
> 
> That said, I still believe in grasping the concept, applying the principles and knowing the background. Use of formulae themselves is up to the brewer.



Quite right there manticle, agreed. Once you get to know your brewery and what it produces then the balance equation can help. Even before then the BU:GU can at least give a target until you sort your own taste preferences. Sort of same adjustments on a HB scale as with nc ibu if thats some sort of a parallel argument. However if the target is never given what do you aim at before pulling the trigger?
I just see it as an under utilised factor.
Daz


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## Nick JD (2/5/12)

NickB said:


> But on that note too Nick, I'd say most calculations done through brewing software would be approximations at best...



I make approximately delicious beer. Numbers, be damned!


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## NickB (2/5/12)

As long as you're happy


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## Dazza88 (2/5/12)

Nick JD said:


> IMO, BU:GU is a rough guide at best, and a complete waste of time at worst. As an example (2 SMaSH brews):
> 
> Batch 1: Mashed at 70C and bittered to 25 IBUs
> 
> ...



Huh, isn't that the point of BV, to factor in attentuation?


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## Nick JD (2/5/12)

DazDog said:


> Huh, isn't that the point of BV, to factor in attentuation?



Fark knows. I make beer not software. Does BV use mash temp in its algorithm?


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## Dazza88 (2/5/12)

BV uses Fg so pretty much yeah.

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rohw0009/homebrewin...ator/bvcalc.htm


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## Nick JD (2/5/12)

DazDog said:


> BV uses Fg so pretty much yeah.
> 
> http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rohw0009/homebrewin...ator/bvcalc.htm



Mash temp derived FG, or attenuation derived FG?

So I could just treat my yeast like a bitch and get a nice sweet beer mashing low?

See - it's all a craps shoot - and numbers that have a standard deviation bigger than their useful range are next to useless. Without encapsulating the mash temp all this stuff is just pissing in the wind that software engineers love to do. "If we make it more complicated, we'll beat the competition", no, you'll make it a ******* trainwreck and no one will understand it and there'll be threads about it by people who don't understand it either.


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## Bogan333 (3/5/12)

DazDog said:


> I guess they might b inverses so if bu.gu is0.66 then balance would be 1.51. Just a guess as i dont have the program in front me.
> 
> 
> Edit. Not quite, bv also account for fg, see link below.
> balance value calc


Thank you so much for the link DazDog How I know and I will use the calc as a tool.
Now I got to find out what AA% means and why?


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## Parks (3/5/12)

georgecopley said:


> Now I got to find out what AA% means and why?


http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=15

First acronym with linked resources 

Sorry, the BYO link is dead and the wikipedia link has a lot of other reading.

Try here http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-4.html


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