# 400 Liters Lost To Infection



## Tony (2/3/08)

I have been plagued by infection after infection in the lest few months. and making 50 liters at a time, it doesnt take long to rack up a score like 800 schooners down the drain.
:angry: 

The first infection that ruined 5 batches was a dodgy firmenter that i used to rack to. THe beer would be fine after primary but once racked would form a white scum on the surface and get a funny taste to it. I replaced all my taps, gromets ect, new racking tube, steralised teh firmenter fridge, and threw the ofending firmenter to the tip, litterally. I drove it there myself! It had a cavity in the thick plactic base that went yellow and it smelt like a dead animal, even after a massive bleach bath that would kill a brown dog!

things were looking up..... i made a keolsch and i was very excited when i got it on tap and it was fantastic. I then made a Munich Dunkel and had a compression fitting on my chiller fail and drip pool water into the chilled brew :angry: It got the same funky white scum infection in the end which tells me that the fitting had been leaking for a while. I recon the bug from the pool water got into the firmenter cavity and stayed there.

Back on your horse, i told myself. I fixed the chiller and put in nice strong barrel unions that wont leak like the old worn out compression fittings that didnt like getting undone and done up over and over.

I brewed again..... a nice pale ale, light amber in colour with B-SAAZ and POR. It was a great beer, with no sign of infection...... i thought once again, ive beat it! 

How wrong was I!!!!!!!!

THe next brew, a light coloured, "slightly better than swill" experiment to make a beer for a work function was looking great. I ran it onto the yeast cake from the previous B-SAAZ Pale ale as it wasnt infected and thought..... it will be right. After a week in primary at 19 deg it was done and on tasting it my heart sank. It had a sour flavour and aroma....... Infection, but different to the funky white scum germ.

GReat..... a different one to fight.

I thought...... ahhhh the fermenter must have had something on the side of it that got washed in...... i got lazy..... dont run into a used firmenter again!

So next weekend i brewed an english special bitter. lots of first gold and challenger hops, and a fresh Wyeast 1272 American ale 2. Fresh start, clean firmenter, new yeast, should be all good right?

Wrong

Same sour infection as the last one. So on finding this i declared............. NO MORE BREWING!

not till i find the source of this nightmare.

So last night i got thinking. I figured these ones were infected from the start. the kettle was sterile after the boil, the firmenter was sterile, along with everything else used, new yeast ect. It must be betweem the kettle and the firmenter.
So i stripped the pipework and fittings and was rather shocked at what i found. Slime and mould in the tap that feeds from the kettle to the firmenter.

So the kettle pipework arangement is being completly re-designed. It will be done with barelunions that can be easily undone for cleaning and the pipe to feed the firmenter (i gravity feed) will be seperated from the line from the mash tun so no cross contamination can happen from unboiled wort when running to the firmenter.

I will post pics of what i do the the pipework later.

here is the tap and fitting before and after


----------



## oldbugman (2/3/08)

No chill might have bandaided it.

So it makes you wonder what everyones taps are really like.


----------



## mika (2/3/08)

:icon_vomit: 

Here's hoping you've got it sorted now Tony.


----------



## winkle (2/3/08)

I lost a few batches to a crud build up in my kettle tap as well Tony, I feel your pain. Strip clean and sanitise everytime now-days.


----------



## sqyre (2/3/08)

winkle said:


> I lost a few batches to a crud build up in my kettle tap as well Tony, I feel your pain. Strip clean and sanitise everytime now-days.



+1

I clean and sanitise at the end of the brew day and sanitise again at the start of a brew day.
I have since gotten rid of my pickup tube so the only thing between the kettle is a 1" ball valve a brass 3/4" male garden hose fitting (and its female counterpart) and 2 feet of clear plastic hose.
All of which i can easily pull apart and clean and the size allows for getting inside with a rag/brush..
(also gets the wort into the fermenter heaps quicker)
i also use the same male garden hose fittings on my H.L.T and Mash Tun outlets so i use the same 2 foot clear hose for all 3 steps. 



(pic is of out of the mash tun outlet but my Kettle outlet is on the side)

Sqyre..


----------



## NRB (2/3/08)

Before I'd got to the bottom of your story Tony, I was going to suggest you check that tap for signs of growth. It's a commonly overlooked item that needs a good clean. People who no-chill and use CFWCs don't seem to have the problems with kettle tap scum that immersion chillers do in terms of contamination.

I bet the next one's a beauty!

[edit] spelling


----------



## oldbugman (2/3/08)

NRB said:


> I bet the next one's a beauty!



I bet he's getting thirsty.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (2/3/08)

OldBugman said:


> I bet he's getting thirsty.



Should we start up a collection?


----------



## Jye (2/3/08)

Tony, have you thought about recirculating your wort while boiling? This sanities everything during the boil, makes chilling more efficient and the path from the kettle to fermenter can now be sanitised during the boil. Ive been doing this for ages now because I didnt like the idea of not being able too clean/sanitise the ball valve.


----------



## floppinab (2/3/08)

Tony,

Wondering how long has it been since you put your setup together till when you started finding the infections?? I guess I'm wondering how long should we be looking at between cleans for those ball valves. I'm no chilling so although I don't expect any hassles I don't like the idea of that sort of crud buidling up in my tube and valves.


----------



## randyrob (2/3/08)

Hey Tony,

sorry to hear that, i think many a man would have thrown in the towel in by now give your bad luck.

have you thought about investing in some 3 piece valves? they are easy to strip down and clean.

Rob.


----------



## KHB (2/3/08)

Sorry to hear your troubles hope it all turns out for ya


----------



## paul (2/3/08)

I got rid of my plastic fermenter because it was hard to clean where the threads of the taps are and inside of the tap. Im now using a 50L keg. Its easier to clean and doesnt get a smell to it.


----------



## oldbugman (2/3/08)

oh, also when cleaning out your taps in situ, crack the valves half way.


----------



## Zizzle (2/3/08)

I'm not so sure no-chill would always save you in this case.

But yeah, I'd dare say 400 litres worth of ingredients would pay for a three piece SS ball valve.


----------



## Tony (2/3/08)

How long ahs the rig been together..... id say that valve has been where it is for 3 years or more. Im shocking for that.... learning from mistakes. I tend to wait till it gives me strife then fix it.

As for recirculating during the boil.... i thought about it to get circulation over my chiller coil but not going to go down that road yet..... one day once ive got this problem sorted.

I have spent the afternoon re plumbing the kettle and its come up a treat. The unbioled mash liquor has been plumbed to a seperate circuit to the firmenter outlet and i made the ball valve to the firmenter easily removable with a barrel union for cleaning after each brew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im convinced this was my problem..... along with the leaking chiller fitting. Both of which have been fixed. All i have to do now is pressure test my chiller to be sure nothing leaks. I have a ball valve on one end.... will shut it and see if it leaks on town water presure. thats 10x more than the open head pressure it has when chilling.

will post come pics later on tonight when its complete...... i just have to modify and fit a pipe in the kettle.

cheers


----------



## MVZOOM (2/3/08)

Tony, glad you figured it out. 400L is a big loss and would make lesser brewers either cry or give up. Or both!

Cheers - Mike


----------



## schooey (2/3/08)

Tony said:


> How long ahs the rig been together..... id say that valve has been where it is for 3 years or more. Im shocking for that.... learning from mistakes. I tend to wait till it gives me strife then fix it.
> 
> As for recirculating during the boil.... i thought about it to get circulation over my chiller coil but not going to go down that road yet..... one day once ive got this problem sorted.
> 
> ...



I really hope you've got it sorted, mate. Any chance of some photo's of the new plumbing?


----------



## matti (2/3/08)

I thought I was perseverant in my brewing but you really beat me on this one Tony.
Good to see hehe.
I leave my hoses, taps and connections in caustic solution day or two prior brewing just in case and still I can't brew the perfect drop.
I'll persevere 
HOP it to the till


----------



## kook (2/3/08)

After seeing all these kettle tap pics lately I decided to unscrew mine after cleaning up from brewing earlier. It is a little gungy, but more from scale than organic matter. Still going to take everything apart and give it a good soaking though.

Usually about 1/2 hr into the boil I drain 500ml out of the kettle into a jug then pour it back on top. Also give the quick disconnect a spray inside & out with santiser. I think this combined with the fact that I use a CFWC has prevented any infections.


----------



## Tony (2/3/08)

Oh believe me...... ive come close to crying before. I found the last one was infected just as we had a friend here who is a pro photographer. She was going to d oa family shoot for us. I just couldnt smile.... no matter how hard i tried and when the kids made it dificult i blew up and sent them all to their rooms and canceled the whole thing!

I wont give up though................. NEVER GIVE UP!!!!!!

here are some pics. HEre is what i had before... the text will describe







I have seperated the lines from the mash tun and the outlet to the firmenter. I have made the outler to the firmenter easily removable by way of a barrel union so i can clean it after every brew.
















cleaning the outlet from the kettle to the firmenter will now be much easier if you compare it to the old plumbing






This is inside the kettle. one is the pickup to drain to the firmenter.... its has a SS mesh FB to stop the hops and break..... it works well to!






here is a shot of the overall dodgy job i did of the pipe work. I didnt have any new pipe so i had to bend and twist what was there. i had to straiten out un-needed bends nad make new ones so the pipe looks like i ran over it with a truck but i will work. One line runs to the top of the pump and one to the bottom of the pump.... too easy.






I pressure tested the chiller coil today and found a very small leak in a soldered joint. It makes one drop every 2 minuites in a closed presurised system and has probably been there forever so im not to worried about it. nothing comes out when its an open circuit like when im chilling. will get it fixed anyway.... just in case.

This post was mainly intended to make people think about their systems and that nasties may be lurking where you least suspect. I flush that out every time i brewed but obviously flushing wasnt enouogh.

you live and learn hey.

cheers


----------



## Darren (2/3/08)

Tony,

All those fittings (elbows) are probably all full of "gunk". Maybe not as much as in the ball-valves but there no doubt.

I cant be stuffed looking back, but what was your sanitiser? Have you changed it during your problems? Sometimes a good dose of a different sanitiser can help to knock those resistent "bugs" off.

cheers

Darren


----------



## mika (2/3/08)

I flush my system and still pull the taps apart every 3 brews and find some sort of residual left in there. I've always flushed with tap water (cold), which I don't think is very good at removing sugar deposits. Some nice 100deg water would be the go, pump it around for 5min or so to dissolve all that is left.

I know the professionals have plumbed in systems, but I don't like the idea of them. They also do full caustic boils, that's gotta be a risky business. I connect all my silicone hoses with hosetails and Bunnings butterfly clamps, every valve and fitting can come completely to pieces and be cleaned every 3 or 4 brews and I only use the pump for moving water around. The Mashtun gravity drains to the kettle, the kettle gravity drains to the *fermentor*. If I was to start over again I'd buy a peristaltic pump and pump everything around.
No infections as yet, but then the brewery's young, there's still time.


----------



## Tony (2/3/08)

HEy darren.

I havnt changed sanatisers. Im not to worried about all the other pipes. THey all end up in the kettle and it all gets bouled for an hour or more. After im finished i fill the HLT and heatit to 70 deg and pump it through every pipe in the system to flush it out. half the HLT goes into the mash tun, then into the kettle then to drain and then i repeat. I have pulled apart some of the other fittings in the system and its all clean as a whistle.

the only tap that never gets the full 50 liters of hot water flush is the one in question that feeds to the firmenter.

that problem is solved now.

The system makes great beer...... i help it out where i can. It got a germ in a bad spot and i fixed it. Im not going to be ditching the hard plumbed system as i fild it great to brew with.

we are all different though hay. 

Cheers


----------



## Darren (2/3/08)

Tony,

What sanitiser are you using? Bugs become resistent to any sanitiser especially if used at low-concentration. I would recommend you pump some hot napisan around your system for an hour or so, leave it overnight then follow-up with a a change of sanitiser and a good, strong dose of it. Pump some of it real hot throughout the whole system, then leave it again overnight. Use the new sanitiser on all firmenters, hoses, kegs and beer lines.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Tony (3/3/08)

I gave it a nappysan hit 2 months back when all this started and rotate between iodophur and bleach in the firmenters

Will look into something different but none of that would have helped me with this problem because the tap in question was in a spot where it didnt get recirculation through it when i did clean out the system.

Thats why ive re plumbed it!

cheers


----------



## bugwan (3/3/08)

My system is far simpler than yours Tony, but I always backflush with mains pressure after a brew, closing and opening ball valves as I go to make sure I clean out the crap that gets jammed in the valve itself. The first time I did this on my kettle (after about 3 brews), a four inch, black, slimy piece of crud flew out of the pickup tube into the kettle...

I no-chill, so that may have saved me on these occasions... I use barrel unions too - I dismantle every few brews to check everything out now.


----------



## Adamt (3/3/08)

Three words...

Caustic the mofo.


----------



## petesbrew (3/3/08)

400litres? Geez, I'm getting disheartened at my 100litres of infected beer lately.
All the best wishes for you with getting back to making drinkable beer, Tony
Pete


----------



## damoncouper (3/3/08)

eek. This is why I got a 3 piece tap, although I have never bothered to clean the sucker properly. Excuse me for a minute I have to go check something..


----------



## newguy (3/3/08)

Adamt said:


> Three words...
> 
> Caustic the mofo.



Even caustic doesn't completely clean things out. I have a friend that works at a local micro and they suddenly developed an infection issue. They have a plate style heat exchanger for chilling, and after every use it gets flushed with hot superconcentrated caustic in a closed loop for 30 minutes, then flushed with water. After addressing/examining everything else to try & find the cause of the infections, they actually dismantled the HE. It was totally encrusted with crap. Almost clogged, in fact. It hadn't been dismantled for the 13 years they had been in operation, but now it is routinely taken apart once a month.


----------



## Doc (3/3/08)

A very sad post to see indeed Tony.
Hopefully you are on top of the situation now.
Impromptu brewday for me today as my daughter is sick, so I'm home.
Checked out the kettle tap a bit more than the usual eyeball and it has a little bit of surface matter on it, but nothing major. Gave it a good scub through with a babies bottle, bottle brush and it looks like new.
Hopefully you have saved a few others brewers batches.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## Cortez The Killer (5/3/08)

On the back of this thread I finally got around to pulling apart my pick up / tap on my kettle after 14 batches

No visible mold thankfully - but there a very strong malt / sugar smell and a brown almost syrupy like substance 

Also some dried gunk that seems to accumulate in the kettle

It was pretty gross

All the bits are now soaking in pure sodium percarbonate in the bottom of the kettle

I no chill and recirculate a few litres during the boil to make sure my hose is sanitised (that fills the cube) - This process could help reduce the instances of infection

Thanks for the heads up Tony

Now to rebuild my kegs and clean the mash tun - nothing like the fear of infection to get someone into action

Cheers


----------



## Tony (5/3/08)

Id say thats whai i had in mine. After about 50 more batches than 14 it obviously turned to mould.

Brewede again yesterday with the new mods and clean pipework so will see how it goes.

cheers


----------



## Darren (5/3/08)

Hey Tony, 

How many no-chills did you do?

Could it be that you selected for heat resistant spoilage organisms in your system?

cheers

Darren


----------



## SJW (5/3/08)

> I gave it a nappysan hit 2 months back when all this started and rotate between iodophur and bleach in the firmenters



Iodophor, yes. Bleach, No way. Esspecially near fErmenters that stuff sticks like shite to a blanket. PINK STAIN has to be the best cleaner on the market. That stuff will get anything looking like new.

Steve


----------



## Darren (5/3/08)

Hey SJW,

Looks like one of those that we need to agree to disagree on this one. 

Chlorine will kill before iodine but both will stick to plastic.

cheers

Darren

(PS Tony, if you are still using the same firmenters just buy some new ones, they only last about a year at the most)


----------



## Tony (5/3/08)

Darren said:


> Hey Tony,
> 
> How many no-chills did you do?
> 
> ...



No no chills from this system.... only done a few over time........ one won a state comp and a first place in its catagory at the AABC, one i made during all this infection buisness to replace an infected beer in the HAG case swap. 

The award winner was made 2 years ago when the system was fresh and the other was made in completly different mash tun and kettle.

Thats what got me looking in my rig. The beers i have made in the esky and smaller kettle have turned out fine.

Im not sure what jerm jargon your takin about there mate, sounds like your saying i selected the slime that grew in the tap that i never checked because i "ASSUMED" it was clean. 

I wont assume again i can tell ya

cheers


----------



## Tony (5/3/08)

Steve........... i use bleach to steralise after firmentation and rinse out 24 hours later. I put in about a 1/4 cup and fill to the top (60 liter firmenter)

I rinse 3 or 4 times with a good spray nozzle on the hose and its fine......... cant smell it.

I then dry the firmenter and give it a hit with iodophur before duty. Too easy.

Comp results and picky brewing friends and family say there is no bleach in there!

cheers


----------



## Darren (5/3/08)

Chuck your firkin old firmenters. Good to see you have taste buds.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Tony (5/3/08)

I dont have $160 laying around for new ones at the moment and they arnt the problem. I did have one problem one and its burried at the tip now.

This brew will tell. If its sour the firmenters go and i sell my body on the streets to raise funds for new ones.

I have copious quantities of habanero chillis growing. Might make bottles of Habanero concentrate and sell them for some cash.

taking a $50 paycut weekly these days with interest rates.

no cheers to that


----------



## SJW (5/3/08)

> Steve........... i use bleach to steralise after firmentation and rinse out 24 hours later. I put in about a 1/4 cup and fill to the top (60 liter firmenter)
> 
> I rinse 3 or 4 times with a good spray nozzle on the hose and its fine......... cant smell it.
> 
> ...



Sounds like u got the sanitization thing all covered. If I have done a Ginger Beer or a Cider or a big messy dark Ale I will soak the fermenter in a mix of Pink Stain and rinse and just hit with Iodophor prior to using again. I agree with Tony that I to have found no reason to dump my old fermenter even after 70 odd brews. I would say your infection was coming from the brewery and not old fermenters with a cleaning system like that!

Steve


----------



## Tony (5/3/08)

Ive hear a few good reports on the Pink stain stuff...... will have to give it a go!

Wasnt having a go at you mate...... just saying I dont find Bleach leaves a smell if you rinse it well.

A jug full of boiling water helps if its a bit strong.

cheers


----------



## KHB (5/3/08)

Completly off topic but what is insulating your mash tun tony?? looking to do mine soon


----------



## SJW (5/3/08)

> Ive hear a few good reports on the Pink stain stuff...... will have to give it a go!
> 
> Wasnt having a go at you mate...... just saying I dont find Bleach leaves a smell if you rinse it well.
> 
> ...



Its all good mate. I to used to use bleach but I think it was Mark who had some negative things to say about it and it was then I went over to Iodophor. Pink Stain works every bit as good as Sodium Per just quicker IMO. I was sold on pink stain after doing the Napi San thing on some bottles and then straight after hitting the with Pink Stain and u should of seen all the floaties that came out of the bottles, its pretty heavy duty stuff I find and at 1 level tea spoon to 5 litres it goes a long way.
Any no I dont have shares in the stuff.

Steve


----------



## SJW (5/3/08)

> Completly off topic but what is insulating your mash tun tony?? looking to do mine soon



Same as mine I reckon. 25mm Aeroflex (a closed cell insulation foam) all taped up with wide heavy duty tape.


----------



## Pumpy (5/3/08)

Tony ,

No sure what sort of 'Orgasm' you have .

I am sure you have really cleaned your system a number of times ,those ball valves do get gunky 

suggest you get use the silicone tubing .

and go to No chill .

You are our brewing Guru and expect you will over come it but think you need some significant drastic changes .

I went though a period when I dumped a lot of beer and nearly gave up, but after seeing you brew, I changed a few things and ever since i have been on the right track .

Pumpy


----------



## mr brau (5/3/08)

don't use ball valves - they are not sanitary. I know lots of home brewers use them, but judging from those photos, there is no chance that you will get them clean without dismantling them, which you can't. Don't brew until they are cleaned or replaced. Because of their mechanism, there is no chance of getting them clean - although you could pull them out of your line and boil them in a pot of water for 2hrs. You need butterfly valves for anything downstream from the kettle. try Geordi Stainless - you can probably google them. You can knock down these valves in 20 min (during the boil or heating water) and reassemble - spray all the bits and your hands with metho, and reassemble - and you can take them out of the equation. ball valves are the work of the devil. My 2c.


----------



## browndog (5/3/08)

mr brau said:


> don't use ball valves - they are not sanitary. I know lots of home brewers use them, but judging from those photos, there is no chance that you will get them clean without dismantling them, which you can't. Don't brew until they are cleaned or replaced. Because of their mechanism, there is no chance of getting them clean - although you could pull them out of your line and boil them in a pot of water for 2hrs. You need butterfly valves for anything downstream from the kettle. try Geordi Stainless - you can probably google them. You can knock down these valves in 20 min (during the boil or heating water) and reassemble - spray all the bits and your hands with metho, and reassemble - and you can take them out of the equation. ball valves are the work of the devil. My 2c.



If you use an immersion chiller then the only problem you will have is with the valve that dumps into the fermenter. I guess this is where the NC shines as you can pretty well be assured that your wort is going into the fermenter without any living nasties coming along for the ride. 

cheers

Browndog


----------



## Zizzle (6/3/08)

The anti-ball valve post got me thinking: valveless kettle outlet, just use a G-clamp on some silicon hose. I think someone was talking about that at babbs the other night after jye was showing off his whopping perstaltic pump.


----------



## mika (6/3/08)

If it takes you 20mins to pull down a *3-piece* ball valve I'd suggest you started drinking before hand and are probably at the point of needing to hold onto the floor to stop from falling oof


----------



## kook (6/3/08)

browndog said:


> If you use an immersion chiller then the only problem you will have is with the valve that dumps into the fermenter. I guess this is where the NC shines as you can pretty well be assured that your wort is going into the fermenter without any living nasties coming along for the ride.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Or using a counterflow / plate chiller too.

I think butterfly valves attached to the kettle via triclover clamps would be the ideal solution for easy cleaning. Still poses a problem if you want to clean your pickup tube though... In the meantime I think I'll pick up a couple 3pc ball valves for my kettle and pump. Should be easier to clean than these 2pc jobs.


----------



## NRB (6/3/08)

Can you post a picture of the Pink Stain everyone raves about? I can't find the damned stuff anywhere! (Probably doesn't help that I don't know what I'm actually looking for on the shelves.)


----------



## pint of lager (6/3/08)

PSR or pink stain remover is a pink powder, although I have seen a white version too. Looks like a fine pink powder, a bit finer than napisan.

Chlorinated trisodium phosphate is the name of the chemical.

1 teaspoon per litre in hot water, wash and rinse well.

Not suitable for stainless steel.

I alternate between PSR and napisan in the brewery. Sometimes out comes the caustic soda.


----------



## mr brau (6/3/08)

mika said:


> If it takes you 20mins to pull down a *3-piece* ball valve I'd suggest you started drinking before hand and are probably at the point of needing to hold onto the floor to stop from falling oof



I believe I said butterfly valve which need to be dismantled, cleaned and reassembled. I am happy to race you.


----------



## mika (6/3/08)

Was commenting that 3pc ball valves are available and quite easy to clean. In other words, not all ball valves are evil.


----------



## mr brau (6/3/08)

Whatever. Just promise me that you'll pull them to bits often. I have never seen ball valves in breweries, and have never used them myself. All I know is that there is so much crap than can get stuck behind the ball in the valve - even when you put caustic through them - that you're better off without them. Especially if your brewery lies dormant for a week or two.


----------



## haysie (6/3/08)

NRB said:


> Can you post a picture of the Pink Stain everyone raves about? I can't find the damned stuff anywhere! (Probably doesn't help that I don't know what I'm actually looking for on the shelves.)






Try Woolies, K-Mart, i seen it at both in the last few days. IMO, why bother. Looks like a gimmick overpriced product to me. 
Far better options available.


----------



## Tony (6/3/08)

Its only the one ball valve that the cooled wort comes into contact with....... will look into a good SS 3 piece to do the job.

Anyone know a good suplier on the east coast?

cheers


----------



## pint of lager (6/3/08)

Haysie, try your local homebrew shop, they will probably sell it by the kilo, rather than a marked up little plastic container of the stuff like Coles, Woolworths and Big W sell. 

I have tried heaps of cleaners and PSR certainly works well. It is the only cleaner I have used that will clean the gunk out of a one piece airlock that has had krausen go through it.

Labs do use it too, have seen a bucket of it for cleaning glassware in laboratories.


----------



## Tony (6/3/08)

I am definatly going to give it a go. especially in my bottles, they need it.

cheers


----------



## pint of lager (6/3/08)

Tony, I use it in my bottles, no brushing required. Rinse the bottle with tap water, add a teaspoon of PSR, fill with water, wait 24 hours, transfer the PSR solution to the next empty bottle, rinse cleaned bottle, store upside down till required and just sanitise.

I use some unusual yeasts and they throw a haze on the inside of the bottles that no amount of brushing will remove. Chemical cleaning is good. As someone else said, in some spots it does a better job that our favourite el cheapo napisan.


----------



## Darren (6/3/08)

Just a warning

Tri Sodium Phosphate is banned in many areas of the US as it will cause algal blooms.

Hence the "phosphate free" tags often seen on modern cleaners.

So, dont chuck it down the drain or allow into waterways.

cheers

Darren


----------



## oldbugman (6/3/08)

Wheres the local depot we can drop off out spent psr?


----------



## Tony (6/3/08)

Thats probably because it messes with the chemicals the American government puts in the water to make the population complient and unaware of the subliminal fast food advertising.

This is Australia. We dont have any water in dams to get algal blooms.

hehe sorry, had to have a dig.

cheers


----------



## Tony (19/7/08)

Ok

Its up around the 600 liter mark now. 

I have had a few half decent beers but it has gone down hill again.

I have had to dig deep, just read my blog about the pain its causing me. Ive always had a passion for brewing beer, I work hard and research everything i do to make the best beer i can, and results have proved im on the right track but over the last 6 to 12 months its gone out the window.

I am thinking now it was a compound problem. I have found multiple problem areas now and as i eliminate them the infections get milder and less often.

So far i have found the firmenter with the pin hole cavity in the base that ended up smelling like a dead rabbit and was impervious to pure bleach!

Then the scum build up inside the inlet side of the tap that fed the fermenter from the kettle.

Then recently the yeast starter. My beloved tight ares stir plate. The erdinger (? :lol: ) flask with its dodgy rubber bung. I had sealed the loose airlock in the bung with a roll or 2 or masking tap years ago and never removed it. I just threw it in the steraliser holus bolus thinking it would be fine. I removed it and pulled the tape off to find nasty yellow sour shit built up in the tape layers. I was really upset with myself for that one.

But the infections are still there. Not as bad........ nowhere near as bad as before but still a mild sourness.

There must be something else!

There must be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cracked malt for a brew tomorrow, put it in the mash tun on my brew rig. Filled the HLT with water ect and was about to fit the ball valve to the kettle outlet when i noticed an amber extract type scum on the inner lip of the ball valve.

I worked the valve a dozen or more times and the bit of scum got bigger.

NOT GOOD!

I stripped the ball valve to little bits and guess what i found.

Loads of scum and crud.

Cleaned, reasembled and ready to go for tomorrow.

Fingers crossed the beer will work out. I really really hope it will.

A note to all reading this............ look deaper than the eye can see. Pull everything apart and check it.......... especially if it comes into contact withj chilled boiled wort.

cheers


----------



## enoch (19/7/08)

Have you tried going for the Jamil method of cooling? I went this way for a number of reasons but a big one was so that everything including the outlet to the fermenter had been well and truly cooked during the recirculation.


----------



## Tony (20/7/08)

Na my kettle isnt set up for it. I have been contemplating a new kettle and if i do i will re-plum this feature in.

Till then i will have to stick to stripping the ball valve.

cheers


----------



## Screwtop (20/7/08)

Tony, maybe time to think outside the square. Maybe the cause is NOT right before your eyes. Try one new fErmenter, split a batch between it and another of your old fErmenters. Plastics are porous and although your sanitisation regime may be flawless, there may still be a risk.

Do you know that the crud in your fittings is actually the source of the problem? Admittedly it's not ideal, not even acceptable in a clean brewery, but I bet some could be found in fittings in almost any home brewery. Naturally it seems logical that an organism has to have a home in which to survive and the gunk seems like the perfect medium, it might pay for you to take a scraping and put it in a new sterile jar from the chemist and drop it into a lab with some infected beer for comparison to see what they make of it. Darren might have some suggestions re this or even be able to help out if you could send it to him? 

You poor bugger, you've been so methodical, must be really frustrating. Good on you for persisting!

Watching this thread closely now, really has me intrigued.


----------



## newguy (20/7/08)

Tony, have you ever tried to ferment in a glass carboy? I'm absolutely paranoid about infections and it's been many years since I lost a batch to infection (which was very early in my homebrewing "career"). I always ferment in glass because I know for sure that I can sanitise it [nearly] perfectly. My kettle has a ball valve too, but I've never cleaned mine. Well, nothing more than running soap & water through it. I know it's all gunked up, but it has never caused me trouble. I run hot wort through it, into a CFC, and then into a carboy. No issues.

I'm sure you've mentioned it, but I can't find what you use to sanitise. What chemical do you use?


----------



## Darren (20/7/08)

Screwtop said:


> Tony, maybe time to think outside the square. Maybe the cause is NOT right before your eyes. Naturally it seems logical that an organism has to have a home in which to survive and the gunk seems like the perfect medium, it might pay for you to take a scraping and put it in a new sterile jar from the chemist and drop it into a lab with some infected beer for comparison to see what they make of it. Darren might have some suggestions re this or even be able to help out if you could send it to him?
> 
> You poor bugger, you've been so methodical, must be really frustrating. Good on you for persisting!
> 
> Watching this thread closely now, really has me intrigued.




Tony,
I can't help you with culture or identifying the bug. It will cost a bucketload to get this analysis done and it won't help anyhow as i am sure you have already tried every available sanitiser!

I think I asked this before, have you replaced your plastic fermenters yet??

cheers

Darren


----------



## Tony (20/7/08)

I have bought a new  fIrmenter and it did the same thing.

I have gone through a few different infections. To start with it was the white scum on the top and a massive "bloom" in the beer that made it cloudy and was near impossible to filter out. 

Then It was this dirty tasteing bug with a bit of groath on top but no algal bloom in the beer.

Now its a slow building vinigar type soureness. It takes weeks to develop.

I have just stripped everything....... and i mean EVERYTHING down to individual components and bleached the hell out of it overnight.

I use bleach as my primary sanatiser, rinse and dry after 24 hrs soak, then before use, everything gets a 1 hr soak in Iodophur.

In getting there......... 

I have thought about glass fIrmenters but i brew 50 liter batched and have enough trouble moving the plastics around.

now....... the CAP is ready to sparge, so im off to think positive 

cheers


----------



## newguy (20/7/08)

Tony said:


> I use bleach as my primary sanatiser, rinse and dry after 24 hrs soak, then before use, everything gets a 1 hr soak in Iodophur.



I used to use iodophor too, but I switched to star san about 8 or 9 years ago and I won't use anything else. I've left my star san mixed in my my sanitising bucket, sealed, for about 9 months and it's still effective. Once I left a bucket of iodophor the same way - about 6 months - and it was full of.....I honestly don't know what they were. They kind of looked like jellyfish crossed with mushrooms. There were hundreds of them - all sizes ranging from tiny up to about 20cm across - evenly dispersed throughout the bucket. I haven't used iodophor since.

Since you're tackling everything else, I really recommend a sanitiser change. Also consider glass carboys. I do double batches too, but I split them into 2 x 23l carboys. Good luck tracking down the issue.


----------



## Darren (20/7/08)

Have you tried high-temp plastic hoses to move stuff around (ie eliminated the elbows in your copper system)?

cheers

Darren


----------



## Screwtop (20/7/08)

Tony said:


> I have bought a new  fIrmenter and it did the same thing.
> 
> I use bleach as my primary sanatiser, rinse and dry after 24 hrs soak, then before use, everything gets a 1 hr soak in Iodophur.




Tony, what strength is the bleach and what concentration do you use to sanitise your fAmenters?

I use an el-cheapo off the shelf 'Riviera" brand from Woolies,(sodium hypochlorite - no more than 3.7% when packed, whatever that means). I don't use it at non rinse strength as my purpose is to kill whatever it is possible to kill with the bleach solution prior to use. The label recommends 1/2 to 1 cup in 3L of water to sanitise a load of washing, allowing 10 min. For my fBermenters I use 250ml in 5L in the fCermenter and shake, left overnight to a few days and shaken up every now and then. Same as you I rinse this out with tap water until there is no smell and then use iodophor in 2L of water, shake about and leave for an hour or so then drain prior to filling from the kettle.




Tony said:


> now....... the CAP is ready to sparge, so im off to think positive



You'll beat this b....rd, just hate to think of the wasted beer.

Screwy


----------



## pablo_h (20/7/08)

Tony said:


> <snip>
> Now its a slow building vinigar type soureness. It takes weeks to develop.



I've always had that, always. All the brews I did years ago had that. Some of the brews I've had recently have had that too. Even spraying everything with starsan hasn't helped, or buying a new fermenter. Or boiling all the water hasn't helped much. The beer always tastes nicer in the fermenter than it does in the bottle, so I don't know if it's my bottles/bottling/priming/wine thief sampling, or an infection that's always there and takes weeks to develop.


----------



## randyrob (20/7/08)

Hey Tony,

i know everyone is feeling for you here but i have been thinking about this last last night while watching the idiot box

are you able to 

a) get a FWK of another brewer and ferment it with your gear?

B) brew on someone elses gear and ferment it with your own gear?

for me this will eliminate out problems on the "cold side" of brewing 

looking forward to some progress on this!

stay positive, you have inspired me and i'm sure other brewers as well  

Rob.


----------



## Tony (20/7/08)

I Will take the advice on switching to a new sanatiser........... where can i get this Starsan stuff?

I buy the white king bleach, the strong stuff. I dilute about 1/2 - 2/3 of a cup in a 50 liter firmenter  

If i put my starter flask in with its ring of scum buildup inside, it eats that off and disolves it to nothing in no time.

Darren........ you know more about germs than me, but how does it matter about the pipework pre boil when i boil it to death for 90 min? I do use silicon hose for racking and give it a good boil

Im kind of thinking it was the tap and the rubber bung in the starter flask. My No Chill beers that i brew in seperate gear to the Rig (esky and 50 liter kettle) have not getten infected when i have pitched dry yeast but did when i pitched liquids from the starter.

Thats what led me to investigate that.

I was trained to be a fault finder in my trade and im using my training of sorts with this.

Change one thing and see what happens.......... if you change 5 things and its fixed, you will never know what it was for next time.

thanks for your support folks.......... your my driving force on this.

cheers


----------



## Screwtop (20/7/08)

Tony said:


> I buy the white king bleach, the strong stuff. I dilute about 1/2 - 2/3 of a cup in a 50 liter firmenter
> 
> If i put my starter flask in with its ring of scum buildup inside, it eats that off and disolves it to nothing in no time.




Tony, please try a stronger strength bleach solution (250ml in 5L, with a teaspoon of white vinegar to drop the ph). And save water! no need to fill the fermenter.

Wash everything after use with napisan, fermenters, kettle (and your flask) everything, and rinse then leave to dry. A day or two before next brewday, use 5L of the bleach solution in the fermenters, shake every now and then until the morning of brewday, rinse out with clean water and put 2L of iodophor/starsan in the fermenter for an hour or so, tip out and leave to drain before filling.


----------



## onescooter (20/7/08)

I recently listened to the basic brewing podcast on sanitizers with Charlie Talley from 5 Star. He says that bleach is a great sanitizer but needs to have the PH down to be effective. 1 oz per 5 gallons of bleach with 1 oz of vinegar is all that's needed and 30 secs is all the time that's needed. (http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3)
I have always had infection problems, and in my hunt to solve my dramas I ended up keeping a small amount of wort from different stages of the brew to find out when the infection was starting. Assuming the vessels you keep your samples are clean and covered, there should be no infections coming through.
I also introduced a specific infection to some slants I had sitting around to be able to identify what outcomes these infections would have on the finished product.
I sincerely hope you sort out your issues, as I think we all know how tough it is to tip beer down the drain.
Cheers
Scott.


----------



## Tony (20/7/08)

Will try that Screwy, thanks mate.

You get in a system of sanitation that works and just stick with it

I will try that!

Less water, more bleach in the firmenter

cheers


----------



## sama (20/7/08)

Tony said:


> I Will take the advice on switching to a new sanatiser........... where can i get this Starsan stuff?




http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=933


----------



## sama (20/7/08)

For what its worth,i think if everything is cleaned with sodium percarbonate based cleaner(napisan,oxybright etc) then you shouldnt need to use bleach if youve got some starsan..tho the bleach cant hurt i suppose.


----------



## The King of Spain (20/7/08)

Sometime I envy the rigs I see on this forum, but reading this post makes me want to keep it that way. No taps, valves etc etc.


----------



## Tony (20/7/08)

Its all good if you know what things to clean out........... I didnt. 

Thats why im posting all this, so others can learn from my nightmare.

I would have rater kept it all to myself, its embaresing, but i just thought of all the others out there that could hit a similar problem. If it helps save someone sanity.......... well, i will post my pictures of complacency.

You can plumb a rig a lot more simpler )) than i did but when i built mine, there wernt many others getting about. I basicly did it from my head.

There are better ways, but i do like my hard plumbed rig. ITs reliable, i know it like the back of my hand and i dont thing the pipe pre kettle are the problem. Thats why we boil it isnt it?

Everything gets flushed with hot water post mash, and i have pulled it apart to inspect it......... clean as a whistle.

cheers


----------



## andreic (20/7/08)

Tony said:


> I was trained to be a fault finder in my trade and im using my training of sorts with this.
> 
> Change one thing and see what happens.......... if you change 5 things and its fixed, you will never know what it was for next time.



There's better people than I to offer advice and help but I'd suggest you could rethink these statements... I would also like to think I am an expert problem solver in my own field. But when you have lost 400L (or is it 600L), perhaps its time for some radical changes. The priority now is probably just to get some beer successfully brewed, fermented and in the glass ok.

Change 10 things if you have to... if something seems remotely suspect, simplify it. e.g. use dried yeast and sprinkle it on top - don't rehydrate it. Once you've done a few successful brews and got some confidence back... start reintroducing the things you changed one by one and see it if reoccurs.

I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of this whatever your approach. I sure hope its the next beer!

cheers, Andrei


----------



## Tony (20/7/08)

mate ive been fighting this on and off for 12 months now. 

I have tries about everything. I have come back and made good beer then something else hits.

I have found mand different areas in my brewing that have caaused the infections, and eliminated them one at a time. I belive i may be on top of it all now.

As i type, i stink of bleach.......... the road outside is glowing white from bleach. Cars are crashing as the drivers are blinded by the light from how clean my gutter is.............. if the fermenters are dirty..... i have a problem.

I strerlised everything tonight as screwey sugested, mega bleach solution for 20 min followed by an iodophur hit. I stripped everything to individual pieces, removes fermenter lid orings........ the works. 

I pitched a no chilled Scottish 70/- with US-05 ( i tipped my 1728. may not have been infected but i didnt trust it). I poured a cup o boiled cooled water in the bottom of the fermenter......... tipped in the dry US-05, left fort 10 min to re hydrate and then poured in the cube. aireate with a tripple steralised spoon and sealed up.

Also megs bleached a fresh fermenter, ran the CAP into it and pitched a heap of fresh WLP833 at 15 deg. Put in the fridge and it working its way down to 10 deg now.

I believe i have learnt a lot about brewing, sanitation, my equipment and how to manage it from all this. 400 liters may seel like a lot but at 50 liter batches over the last 12 months its not to bad. I have had runs of bad then good then bad. It has changed constantly and i thing the infection has changed too............. different germs, different sources. ITs a matter of weed them out one at a time. If i change 10 things and it comes good............. what was it? How do i combat it next time.......... ive learnt nothing!

Yes i may have clean beer but the question will still remain unanswered!

cheers


----------



## andreic (20/7/08)

Fair enough reply. I thought you'd lost 400L with not much drinkable beer in between. Sounds like you have the right approach for your circumstances then! I hope you've got it licked now!


----------



## Tony (20/7/08)

Mate.......... i apreciate your help.......... i have tipped out hundreds of liters, some in betwween has been good and some in between this has been "drinkable"............ just. I put up with it because its tolerable and i cant afford to pour it all down the drain.

Its been a constant chanking senerio which has nade it dificult to narrow down.

I got infections here and there when i started out and a good bleaching and it was gone for good. Not this time........... after all the years of brewing, all the places i didnt realise would cause problems came and bit me........ all at once.

Im sorting them out one at a time. different places, different germs. I think it was a lot of coincidence that they all hit at once...... a few different spots and infections mized in together. Slowly fixing them.

Racked the oktoberfest tonight to use the yeast for the cap and the oktoberfect tasted great.

time will tell and i will go from there.

Watch my Blog for updates

cheers


----------



## pablo_h (20/7/08)

What ever you find as the ultimate cause, I'd be interested in learning. I have the same problem, some good, some bad. Some down the sink, some just drinkable. Bleach, starsan, boiling everything has not been a factor. Some of the good ones have been fermented with starters, some of the bad ones have been fermented with fresh dry yeast. :blink:


----------



## Zizzle (21/7/08)

Hi Tony,

Commiserations mate, good on you for posting about your plight.

I'm sure a lot of us here are trained problem solvers and appreciate your approach of one change at a time.

The other approach to take is to strip the post boil routine back to basics and one at a time, reintroduce your niceties.

So I was just wondering: what is a foolproof post boil routine? What would I do?

I can imagine a kettle with no tap. Just a piece of silicon hose where the tap would be. Keep one end higher that the wort (loop it under the handle) until the boil is finished. Don't bother chilling, just run straight into a brand new sanitized fermenter. Leave it in the fridge a few hours until pitching temp is reached. Sprinkle dried yeast. Don't take any samples. Just wait a generous amount of time for it to ferment out. No filtering, just straight into the keg/bottles.

It might not make the nicest beer, but hopefully be infection free.

Anyway, keep up the fight. I look forward to seeing this one resolved.


----------



## Tony (21/7/08)

Good thinking Zizzle, but what about the wort that will get in the hose and not be boiled.............. i supose you could recirc some during the boil.

I dont know if there is such a thing as a fool proof post boil routine...... there will always ba a place where something can go wrong.

I will see how these 2 brews i put down yesterday go, one brewed on the rig, one brewed in an esky and no chilled.

The oktoberfest i racked last night tasted fine, clean with a touck of lager yeast sulphur. ITs going into CC today after a rest at about 16 deg for 24 hrs.

fingers crossed

Oh........ does anyone know of a good well priced source of 3 piece ball valves ?

cheers


----------



## LethalCorpse (21/7/08)

Geordi is $28.60 inc. for a 3piece 1/2in BSP.

Have you pulled apart the compression fittings to see what they look like inside? Because wort can get around the ends of the pipe up to the seal, it's an easy hiding place that's difficult to clean without disassembly. What about your pump?


----------



## Tony (22/7/08)

yeah clean out compression fittings ect after each brew. There arent any outside or after the kettle anyway so its all been boiled, including the compression fittings.

The pump............. its pre boil!, its no different to the walls of the mash tun........ and who steralises their mash tun?

I probably shouldnt have asked that  

Now...... Screwey!

I have a bone to pick with you!

You sent me a long winded almost PP post epic PM the other day.

mate................. if i lived closer to you i would be at your place and give you a hug 

You were right about the lines and tap.

I have been so consumed with fermenters (i used an e just for you) and the like i forgot about my lines. I have rinsed them out but not really "nuked" them so to speak.

I hot causticed them tonight for an hour. I poured a beer and drank it slowly while it soaked to remind myself of the funny tastes........... not offensive........ just something that shouldnt be there.

I opened the tap and the caustic came our like a brown ale. I almost threw up. i almost cried. I jumped for joy and shouted.......... screwey your a [email protected]#ken legend!

Flushed out with 80 odd deg water and hooked the keg back up.

Its a differnt beer.

ITS [email protected]#KEN BEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Its beer i tell ya.

not funky

not sour

ITS BEER!

And then the penny dropped. 

I chucked out all my yeast :huh: <_< 

Oh well.......... thats not a problem

now all i need is the fermenting beers to be clean and i will be happy.

Check my blog thing for my regular rants and raves on the saga

cheers


----------



## schooey (22/7/08)

:lol:

Good for you, mate... It's just good to see you in a better frame of mind. Hopefully you're on top of it now...

Looking forward to a beer or two on Satdee


----------



## Tony (22/7/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> Geordi is $28.60 inc. for a 3piece 1/2in BSP.




Great tip LC............ and what a site.......... I drooled all over my keyboard.

cheaper than others 

cheers


----------



## altstart (23/7/08)

Gooday Tony
I started AG in 2005 I got 4 brews ok then an infection set in and I lost 900 ltrs to it. I pulled my system apart searching for the cause before I found the cause it was the kettle tap. I had thought of the tap and dismissed it as the cause because of the fact that it would be sterilised by the boil. Dumb move when I finally looked it was obvious I had found the problem and yes I sterilise every thing including the Mash tun and the Kettle.
Cheers Altstart


----------



## Tony (23/7/08)

Stripped both my kettle taps last inght to little bits and soaked in the caustic solution i pot through my lines......... this dreen/grey mist decended rom them to the bottom of the bucket they were soaking in.

they are clean now and will get stripped every time.

cheers


----------



## Pumpy (23/7/08)

Hey Tony ,

It seems that this problem has occurred since you moved home .

buy a fresh wort kit and see if you get the same problem it may not be in your system ?

Is it in the air ?

Pumpy :unsure:


----------



## WitWonder (23/7/08)

Tony said:


> Stripped both my kettle taps last inght to little bits and soaked in the caustic solution i pot through my lines......... this dreen/grey mist decended rom them to the bottom of the bucket they were soaking in.
> 
> they are clean now and will get stripped every time.
> 
> cheers




Tony I posted about an odd flavour that was occasionally present in my beers and I think the source was the kettle valve. The keg was inherited and came with a three piece valve and the keg iteself used to be used for wine or something along those lines. When I took the valve apart (it was filthy) and dropped it into some Napisan it had the same effect as you describe above - some odd coloured mist rising from the parts in the bucket. 

I've only done one brew since then and that's probably going to have an odd flavour due to some rusty chain making its way into the kettle during brewing thanks to the assistant (hard to get good help) but I think (hope) at least the other odd flavour might be gone in future! Hopefully yours is too!


----------



## LethalCorpse (23/7/08)

I think we spend too much time worrying about sanitisation when cleanliness can be equally important, both pre- and post-boil. The boil might kill any bacteria that's living there, but it won't remove the flavours it's produced while living there. Imagine taking rotten veges out of the fridge, boiling the crap out of them, and eating them, or even one rotten vege and a load of fresh ones. Sure, the bugs are dead, and it won't kill you, but it's going to taste like arse. It's a similar process when you pump fresh wort through fittings that have been happily growing gunk on leftover wort in their seams, threads and seals since the last brew. With that in mind, it makes sense for HLT, mashtun, pump and plumbing to all get the same breakdown and cleaning procedures as the kettle and fermenters, with the only difference being one-shot in the fermenters and post-boil plumbing.


----------



## Tony (23/7/08)

Good point LC

I do heat around 40 liters of water to about 70 deg and pump it through every pipe in the system to clean out all the sugars, break and grain and hop bits.

I have pulled the pipes apart recently and found them to be spotless because of this.......... i spend 1 to 2 hrs cleaning it out after each brew!

It was the few places i never thought of that bit me in the end and i now know of them.

That is the one good thing about hard plumbing with SS and copper.......... they dont hold aroma of what has been on them like plastic, i find if i close my esky mash tun up after cleaning out, it is a bit musky when i open it but the SS mash tun.......... no chance. It smells like air!

Does anyone in the hunter valley area who might be reading this know of a place when i can aquire cuastic ?

cheers


----------



## Quintrex (23/7/08)

Tony said:


> Good point LC
> 
> I do heat around 40 liters of water to about 70 deg and pump it through every pipe in the system to clean out all the sugars, break and grain and hop bits.
> 
> ...



Hey Tony
Congrats on what I hope is the end of your epic fight.
Get drain cleaner at a local hardware! you can buy ones that are straight sodium hydroxide, considering you will rinsing it well after, this grade should be fine.

Q


----------



## Ross (23/7/08)

Tony said:


> Does anyone in the hunter valley area who might be reading this know of a place when i can aquire cuastic ?
> 
> cheers



Tony,

I've got some trial packs of PBW which I'm told by the manufacturers out performs caustic in pretty well every department, yet is perfectly safe; you can even wash your clothers & hands in it.
Drop me a line if you are interested & i'll send you a free container for your feedback & hopefully an end to your nightmare.

cheers ross


----------



## Tony (23/7/08)

pm sent

You can wash your clothers in it  (oh that felt good)

I will try it in the kegs 

cheers mate


----------



## schooey (23/7/08)

Tony said:


> Does anyone in the hunter valley area who might be reading this know of a place when i can aquire cuastic ?
> 
> cheers



You can buy it in the drain cleaner section at Woolies... 

about $2.50 for 500g

or go have a look at these dudes if you want to go bulk. They sell everything from caustic to beer line cleaner


----------



## Doc (23/7/08)

Tony said:


> I have been so consumed with fermenters (i used an e just for you) and the like i forgot about my lines. I have rinsed them out but not really "nuked" them so to speak.
> 
> I hot causticed them tonight for an hour. I poured a beer and drank it slowly while it soaked to remind myself of the funny tastes........... not offensive........ just something that shouldnt be there.
> 
> ...



Thank god Tony. Hopefully the light at the end of the tunnel.

Hearing your pain, I thought it was time I did a full strip of my taps as I haven't done a full strip of the Ventmatic Ultra-flo's since they were purchased in a bulk buy a few years back.
I also hadn't done a full line clean in a month or so. 
The taps were almost spotless inside and the lines looked ok. I even disconnected the JG flow controllers and cleaned. All good.
So all fully soaked, flushed and cleaned. 
I know if I hadn't done that with the brumby's or andale taps there would have been a whole bunch of crud at the back of the tap where it mounts onto the font. No need to get complacent though 

Doc


----------



## randyrob (23/7/08)

It is hereby announced JULY 22ND is from this day foward International "Clean your Taps & Lines Day"

Mark it in your calendar, someone mark it in the AHB Calendar!


----------



## Tony (23/7/08)

:lol:


----------



## katzke (24/7/08)

Ross said:


> Tony,
> 
> I've got some trial packs of PBW which I'm told by the manufacturers out performs caustic in pretty well every department, yet is perfectly safe; you can even wash your clothers & hands in it.
> Drop me a line if you are interested & i'll send you a free container for your feedback & hopefully an end to your nightmare.
> ...



I love the stuff. Been using it from day one, less then a year now.

I have found it does not work very well cold. It does not need to be hot just warm like a soak in the tub. I use it on bottles and the carboy. Have never used a bottlebrush and only brushed the carboy a few times. If you leave it for days it will go bad and stuff will grow in it. I have used the same batch over 2 days soaking bottles with no problems as long as I freshen it up and add hot water. It works great on labels with regular glue.

Don't let the wife get any as it works great at cleaning the baked on gunk around the kitchen. A good use for the leftovers is to fill the sink and soak the baking pans.

Caustic still has its uses like cleaning old skunky kegs. Something I need to do so will ask how you use sodium hydroxide to clean kegs? I have one that had gear oil in the bottom. The guy I got it from swears that a caustic clean and acid wash will make it good as new.


----------



## LethalCorpse (24/7/08)

erm...how the hell does a keg get full of gear oil? You didn't buy that keg, you rescued it from unspeakable abuse.


----------



## katzke (24/7/08)

LethalCorpse said:


> erm...how the hell does a keg get full of gear oil? You didn't buy that keg, you rescued it from unspeakable abuse.



Well was not full but had some in the bottom. Claims he did not know but it was under his work bench and a room mate may have spilled some and it dripped in.


----------



## Doogiechap (24/7/08)

Tony thanks for sharing this with the community. I for one have become more pro active in my cleaning and sanitizing regime and I'm sure that I am not alone here  I hope you have won the bug battle 



katzke said:


> Well was not full but had some in the bottom. Claims he did not know but it was under his work bench and a room mate may have spilled some and it dripped in.


 :icon_offtopic: 
Apparently in the States post mix kegs are often filled with grease and it's dispensed under pressure with a grease gun. A popular option in push bike shops. :blink:


----------



## fraser_john (24/7/08)

What a read!!! This thread is a real insight.

I still gotta say I love my steam generator! Everything post-boil gets nailed with pressurised steam for at least 5 minutes, CFC, fermenter, kegs, tubes, racking canes, everything bar air locks, I wish they would not shrink when hit with steam!!! but starsan looks after the airlocks.


----------



## Tony (14/12/08)

Update.

Still getting infections, but i think i have it licked now!

I recently PBW'd everything in my system and a lot of muck came out but that was all pre boil.

I have also noticed my No-Chill beers dont get infected. Beers that are chilled are getting infected once fermentation stops and the yeast isnt putting up a fight any more.

So it must be inbetween the boiler and the fermenter.

I have the tap clean but the racking hose! Ahhhhh the racking hose.

I always soal it in bleach of Iodophur before using but this doesnt seem to be doing the job. And its a line designed for compressed air, not liquid.

So it got a length of Silicon tube, ditched the old hose and the one brew i made with it is tasting fine. 

Thank God!

fingers crossed.

cheers


----------



## Pumpy (14/12/08)

Tony said:


> Update.
> 
> Still getting infections, but i think i have it licked now!



I dont think licking it clean is going to work Tony .

Your mouth still has bacteria in it .

Thats why you should not syphon beer by sucking the end of the hose as it transfers the mouth bacteria to the hose and thus infects the beer again .

Best of luck with finding a cure I think it may be airbourne bacteria that is causing you a problem.

The infection may be in your Fermentation fridge ?

Pumpy :huh:


----------



## Stuster (14/12/08)

Tony said:


> I have the tap clean but the racking hose! Ahhhhh the racking hose.



You didn't toss all plastic items before. :angry:  :lol: 

Any other plastic bits and pieces post-boil you still have that "should be ok".


----------



## beers (14/12/08)

I hear your pain Tony. I've been struggling to keep, what I suspect to be a mold infection, at bay for well over 12 months now. I couldn't tell you how many litres I've tipped down the sink  Most beers taste fine when transferring to the keg, but then a woody, earthy musty flavour continues to build up over time. Earlier on other beers were picking it up in primary, but i seemed to have nailed that issue (except for when I opened the fermentor in the fridge mid ferment a few weeks back to check out a lack of krausen)
I've gone OCD with sanitising - everything I use (fermentors, kegs, taps, disconnects, hoses etc.) get pulled apart after use & soaked in sodium percarbonate, then soaked or rinsed with star san or iodophor before using again. I even boil up my hoses about once a month.
I'm at the point where I'm almost certain that it's caused by a mold in my fermenting fridge, which is now in my keg fridge too :angry: (I pulled everything out of both fridges last weekend & wiped everything down with star san - fingers crossed). The area I live in is pretty "damp" & mold prone. 
My latest theory is that I'm getting some spores on the inside of the outlet on the tap of the fermentor. Thats the only thing that generally doesn't come into contact with star san on transferring. & even though I clean & sanitise it before filling the fermentor, a week in a fridge (that occasionally gets a bit of mold growth) & i doubt it would be still sanitary at transfer time. I got a beer to transfer tonight so I'm going to try soaking the outlet (with a medicine cup taped up to the tap & filled with star san) & giving it a good going over with a tooth brush before the transfer. I've actually contemplated switching over to a glass carboy & racking siphon to see if that helps.

Good luck with it Tony  ..I know how frustrated you must be feeling - I was actually needing to brew today but cannot be arsed putting in the effort (AG = 5+ hrs) to lose another batch to infection. Might pick up a FWK next week instead.


----------



## OLDS2006 (14/12/08)

I have found bleach to break down various forms of plastic eg scrubbing brushes, spray bottles, hard hat parts.
With the spray bottle 50/50 bleach and water I would get a black slime like squid ink if used once or twice a month, not much but enough to wonder ?
So now I don`t use bleach with any plastic materials.
Darren


----------



## FarsideOfCrazy (14/12/08)

Sorry to hear about your infection problems there Beers and Tony. (farside bows his head in a minutes silence to all that lost liquid gold)

Also in regards to killing mould, it's a bit of a misconception that bleach kills mould, it won't kill the spores that lurk in whatever it's growing in. That's why it always comes back after a little while.

Maybe an email to fivestar chemicals could enlighten us in a way to get rid of mould.

I remember watching a show on tele and the way they were killing it was a mixture of alcohol and white vinegar i mixed 50/50 (I think).

Some times it can be easier to just throw whatever away and get a new one, especially hoses.

Good luck on your quest good sirs to slay thyne enemy.


----------



## Tony (30/4/09)

I still get infections from time to time. 

Usually after i rack and the beer... fermented or not has been exposed to air.

Anything in the garage left sitting gets this white film on the top. Un infected beer, after poured and the bottle left with the lid off, goes white inside very fast. In my drip tray, anything.

Was in the garage and was looking at he white on the wall......... thats always been there and thought of the white film on my beers.

Took a closer look and it looks like some kind of mould or fungus to me.

Im interested to know what others think?

I have sprayed one patch with a strong starsan mix to see what happens to it. 

It doesnt smell of anything, taste of anything (yes i wanted to see if it tasted of nail pollish)......... but.......... is it mould and sending out spores?


----------



## InCider (30/4/09)

If it tastes like shaving cream (and I can clearly see 'Tony' written on the wall) , 
then you haven't cleaned up after you ate all those chillies with your brother! h34r:


----------



## flattop (30/4/09)

Looks like mould or salt....


----------



## beersatan (30/4/09)

Tony,

Not my trade, but it looks like calcium or something coming out of the bricks or the mortar.
If you've got steam or humid heat hitting them it might be all it is.
I don't reckon it would affect your beer but could be good for your teeth and bones.



BS


----------



## raven19 (30/4/09)

flattop said:


> Looks like mould or salt....



+1 for looking like salt coming thru to the surface.

Any ground water issues at your place Tony?

What is the humidity like? Air movement to aid in drying things out?

Sorry the engineer in me coming thru...!


----------



## raven19 (30/4/09)

Tony said:


> but.......... is it mould and sending out spores?



Can you put a sample onto a slant or similar to see if it does indeed grow into (more) mould?


----------



## Gavo (30/4/09)

Looks like salt leaching out of the concrete Tony. If it's salt then you have a problem with damp. If a problem with damp then very well a problem with some type of mold. Is the white stuff soft or hard and crusty? Painting it with bondcrete may help if it is caused by damp.

Cheers
Gavo.


----------



## chappo1970 (30/4/09)

beersatan said:


> Tony,
> 
> Not my trade, but it looks like calcium or something coming out of the bricks or the mortar.
> If you've got steam or humid heat hitting them it might be all it is.
> ...



Tony that is mineral salts leaching from the mortar and bricks. It's normal-ish but usually points, sorry to say mate, towards rising damp issues. A bi-product of that is mould, mildew and bacteria infestations which maybe the source of your infections. I suggest that you look at the way water in flowing around your house maybe even get a local builder have a gander and see if you can channel that water and dampness away from those walls. The leaching in normal but usually brought on by exposure to moisture.
I wish I was closer to ya so I could give better advice as to the cause.

Cheers

Chappo

P.S it doesn't effect the structural integrity of your house in anyway so no need to panic.


----------



## Carboy (30/4/09)

Tony said:


> I still get infections from time to time.
> 
> Usually after i rack and the beer... fermented or not has been exposed to air.
> 
> ...



Hi Tony,

We had exactly the same issue at our coast house and my wife got me to scrub the area with hot soapy water, then let it dry, and then I sprayed the affected area with "Exit Mould". It worked a treat, but it did eventually come back.

You can get infection this because the spores get into the air. If you can't fix the cause, then regular treatment will control the problem (as outlined above).

Best of luck

Cheers
Carboy


----------



## Hargie (30/4/09)

....G'Day Tony....as a now ex-concretor, that looks a lot like concrete efflourecence to me...or "lime bloom'.....

...due to cappilliary action calcium in the concrete/mortar/bricks leaches to the surface where it reacts with Co2 in the air to cause the bloom....at the end of the day (or maybe year or two), it is the Co2 which also breaks down the bloom it causes...for decorative driveways and the like the cure is time...eventually the supply of calcium salts in the substrate is exhausted and no more is transported to surface to cause the bloom...

...this may not help but do any of the neighbours have out of control fruit trees and rotting fruit lying around...???

...good luck...

Scott


----------



## Verbyla (30/4/09)

Looks like someone is having a little to much fun brewing...... Nothing Sus


----------



## Tony (30/4/09)

Ahhhhhhhh some awsome info here.

I do have a drainage problem. Water comes through the fence from next door when it rains heavily and floods my pool area. Most of this water runs gown cracks around the pool area and can be found seeping from my driveway over the next few days, after soaking through under the house.

When the fresh water goes into the pool it washes a lot of the salt water out.

Mmmmmmmmmmm food for thought.

Anyone else got any thoughts?


----------



## caleb (30/4/09)

That white stuff on the walls does look like some sort of lime deposit to me... (i.e. calcium carbonate).

Sorry to hear you are still getting infected batches... makes my 2 x 22L "down the sink" batches look like nothing.

Some things to consider:

1 - When exactly does the infection show up? In the fermenter, or after, in bottle or keg? Are you regularly sampling the product as it ferments, until the point of bottling/kegging? If so, you should get some idea of exactly when they go "bad".

2 - Have you considered just doing a few "dump and stir" kits or like to see if they are OK. This would narrow down problems to your fermenter vs that complicated, straight out of Star Wars brewing rig you posted pictures of. (yeah I'm jealous... I boil in a big pot and manually pour it straight into my fermenter... BUT there's little in the way of tubes and valves to clean!)

3 - If you've really cleaned EVERY possible thing your wort EVER comes in contact with, ask youself "what stupid non-sanitary things am I doing", like, I don't know, opening your yeast packet with the uncleaned fish gutting knife, stirring it in with whatever spatula you grab from the drawer, leaving the fermenter in a dirty mouldy garage under a bird's nest, then allowing the airlock water to draw back in when you move it, using "pure" rainwater from a tank into which a dead possum was flushed last year, etc, etc. I know these sound facetious, but there's got to be at least one dumb thing you've done where you've said "nah... that won't matter..." and promptly forgotten about it. Maybe it does matter?

I remember I brewed for nearly a year in the standard plastic fermenter, without ever disassembling the tap. I could SEE a ring of something inside, but couldn't open it, and assumed as long as I emptied the sterilizer through the tap that would be OK. WRONG. Eventually I lost a batch. I learnt to break the tap open and there was a layer of stinky sour vinegar smelling crud inside. Now I remove the tap, disassemble and sterilize every batch.


----------

