# Clay's Cider (SIMPLE!)



## slcmorro (11/5/13)

Hey guys,

Although I'm very new to brewing and making my own stuff at home, I thought about putting together a quick tutorial type thing about how I'm making hard cider at home. I'm not one for buying expensive equipment or trying to complicate things, so this is how I do it right out of the original bottles you buy the juice in.

My techniques might not be the most advanced, nor even the best out there (undoubtedly someone will disagree with some or even all of this at one point or another), but this has worked for me so far. The beauty of the way I'm doing it, is it's very simple, very quick and not very scientific at all. No hydro readings, no exact measurements, nothing hard. I even let these sit on a table in the study at ambient temperature. Our house stays around 20c all year round, so it's perfect in my opinion. There's not even any sterilisation to worry about at this stage. Just make sure the juice you buy is preservative free. 

*Any advice I give is just that, advice. Be safe, be careful and if you don't know what you're doing - ask!*

I got these for $2.25 per 3L bottle from the SPC outlet here in Ballarat. Winner!




I'm using a dry yeast called Lalvin EC1118 which cost me $4 from my LHBS. It's only a 5 gm packet, yet as you can see in the pictures above and below, I've used it for 21L of apple and pear juice. It works, trust me. This stuff ferments out in around 5 days if you like your cider sweet, 7 for mid and 9 onwards for dry.




All I've done, is taken about 150ml out of each bottle. Then, I've sprinkled on top (yes, you can rehydrate if you want, but it's easier to sprinkle in this case) carefully measured out equal quantities of the yeast onto the surface of the liquid in the original bottles. When I say carefully, my eyes are brilliant. Promise.

Then, I've replaced the caps, Michael J Foxed the buggery out of the bottles and removed the caps. Finally, all you need to do is cut small squares of cling wrap to fit over the bottles and put an elastic band around it so it stays in place (I steal the missuses really small hairties). Give the bottle a small squeeze to see if you've created a decent seal. The cling wrap should bubble upwards. After that, a small pin prick in the wrap and they're good to sit in my study for about a week. We like ours not sweet nor dry.





Further, for those that want to complete the process, it's as simple as adding in some more sugars at the end, once you're happy with your cider in terms of the fermentation. I used powdered dextrose, mostly because I have a very very good supply of it. Be careful when you do this. The bottles will fizz up mega fast, so be ready with a cap (not too tight, just enough to seal but let air out) to throw on before it spills everywhere. Same principle now applies in terms of letting it carbonate. I usually leave the lids slightly unscrewed overnight and then tighten them in the morning. Once the bottles are pretty tight, I then throw them in the fridge to put the yeast to sleep, and that's that!

*Do NOT leave these lying around at anything above 6c. The yeast will start re-fermenting the added sugars (or remaining sugars if you stopped it short of using them all) in the juice and things will start getting very messy!*

You can go into the secondary fermentation process and rack/bottle off the original if you want to, but I'm too lazy. You can drink it right away once it's carbonated to your liking, or you could even drink it flat and warm (some ciders, especially in winter, taste awesome warm!) as is... or... you could add in a secret ingredient like I do... I'll share it with you. $6 a bottle from the SPC outlet again, this stuff is the best.




Spiced Apple is basically apple and cinnamon cordial (excellent though) and the Ginger speaks for itself.

I hope this was of some use to someone. Happy brewing! 

P.S - I have used Just Juice Apple and Pear (as seen above), Apple, Apple and Raspberry and Apple and Mango with good results.


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## Airgead (11/5/13)

I'd be real careful carbonating in those juice bottles. They aren't designed to take pressure. Your PET softdrink bottle is a masterpiece of modern materials engineering. It will take 100PSI. Those may look similar but they aren't engineered the same way. They will end up going foom. And you will end up with cider everywhere.


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## slcmorro (11/5/13)

I carbonate in them with the lid slightly unscrewed overnight as it says above, and then when I'm able to watch them the next morning and the bottles are where I want them in terms of pressure, they go in the fridge. I'll edit the above to include that. Thanks


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## grantsglutenfreehomebrew (19/5/13)

If you can get an Oztops packet from your brew shop they come with lids for these bottles and soft drink type bottles that allow the cider to ferment but carbonate at the same time. You can stop the fermentation at anytime you taste buds like. Australian Fresh cloudy apple makes a great cider about 3 days into the ferment.


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## bum (19/5/13)

slcmorro said:


> No hydro readings, no exact measurements, nothing hard.


**** this thread.


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## Airgead (20/5/13)

Yeah... the one problem with the ad hoc approach to cider making (bung some juice and stuff together and go for it) is that it may well make a great cider but it may well equally make something awful... and you won't know why. Even more importantly, you won't know how to do it again, or not do it again if it was awful.

A few hydrometer readings aren't exactly hard and the equipment isn't exactly expensive. Its a tiny investment in time and equipment for a huge improvement in consistency. In fact anyone who ever bought a home brew kit already has a hydrometer somewhere.

And before anyone says that we made cider successfully before hydrometers, just bear in mind that we have also been using primitive hydrometers in brewing since the 1500s. Interestingly, an egg was used to indicate the gravity of worts and musts for brewing. There were also a bunch of interesting techniques around measuring temperature without thermometers and stuff like that. We got scientific about brewing very early on and for good reason. We may not have had modern instruments but we were certainly making use of a consistent and repeatable process.

With the easy to use measuring equipment we have nowadays there really is no excuse (other than I couldn't be arsed) for not using them.

Cheers
Dave


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## donburke (20/5/13)

bum said:


> **** this thread.


threadfucker


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## bum (20/5/13)

It's not just the hydrometer thing though (which is important). It's the whole attitude - "Doesn't matter. You'll still get pissed."

They sell shitty alcohol at the shop, guys. Lots easier.


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## bum (20/5/13)

donburke said:


> threadfucker


Thread was fucked before I got here.


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## donburke (20/5/13)

bum said:


> Thread was fucked before I got here.


so you went slops


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## bum (20/5/13)

That's no' how you make porridge.


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## Damien13 (20/5/13)

yikes guys...


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## Bribie G (20/5/13)

At first I thought "just juice?" the guy's been ripped off. Then I saw the price, good buying. I wonder if you can get that apple cordial Australia Wide?


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## Airgead (20/5/13)

bum said:


> It's not just the hydrometer thing though (which is important). It's the whole attitude - "Doesn't matter. You'll still get pissed."
> 
> They sell shitty alcohol at the shop, guys. Lots easier.


You are 100% correct. They sell flagons of sherry or a 4l cask of goon at dans for a couple of bucks. If pissed is what you want, do that. Its way easier and you don't have to wait for a few days while it ferments.

If you want to make cider (or anything for that matter) why not invest a tiny amount of time, energy, care and giving a shit to make something that tastes really good as well.

Cheers
Dave


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## slcmorro (20/5/13)

Thanks for the super helpful, constructive feedback guys. No really, I appreciate it.

I'll be sure next time to not bother trying to put something together, I mean why bother right?


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## Damien13 (20/5/13)

hey slcmorro. For what it's worth I thought the quite angry response to your thread sucked donkeys balls. Would I use your technique.... probably not, but I like the fact you kept it extremely simple. you even prefaced the whole thing by reminding everyone of the fact it was a simple 'how to'. You're all good in my books bud. Wish some people would chill out a little on this forum to be honest. Don't take the criticism to heart ok!


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## slcmorro (20/5/13)

Thanks Damien13. I never purported this method to be perfect, good or even up to the lofty standards of it's many critics and I pretty clearly labelled myself a total beginner. Just a shame that people can't see it for what it's worth and actually provide something constructive rather than drawing from the levels of a 10 year old in their replies. Plainly, it's just free advice on the internet. Take it or leave it, either way you've only wasted a little bit of time and money if it doesn't turn out to your liking. This works fine for me, and I'm happy with the result so I thought I'd share my self-taught technique.


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## slcmorro (20/5/13)

Bribie G said:


> I wonder if you can get that apple cordial Australia Wide?


Just read the bottle mate, and there are some details for the company on it.

Murray Breweries
29 Last St Beechworth VIC
www.murraybreweries.com.au
1800 990 098

Hope that helps!


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## Damien13 (20/5/13)

all good buddy... haters gonna hate
you sound like such a helpful chat. Thought you might like this vid.


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## bum (20/5/13)

slcmorro said:


> I never purported this method to be perfect, good...


But hey, that won't stop me from writing a tutorial on how to do it.



slcmorro said:


> I pretty clearly labelled myself a total beginner.


But hey, that won't stop me from writing a tutorial on how to do it.



slcmorro said:


> actually provide something constructive


Dave's tutorial posted only a few days ago was pretty constructive. I hope people read that one instead.

People read these things. People follow the things written in them without considering them for even a second.

Now apparently people write them with the same level of care.


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## Damien13 (20/5/13)

bum said:


> People follow the things written in them without considering them for even a second.


Who are these morons you speak of. I consider all on this forum to be quite intelligent! Perhaps I am just lucky in knowing only the smart ones? Surely I can't be that lucky?


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## Byran (20/5/13)

I made cider once. Juice, beer yeast slurry..........cider. And it was delicious.


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## Deep End (20/5/13)

Ok, my turn.

Firstly, I havent been on here for long either. This forum has a vast wealth of information on it. I am not going to judge the proportion of good and bad information on here, suffice to say I have found many interesting things out whilst perusing the parts of the forum that grab my attention such as the Non Beer Brewing section. I have read your original post and took it for what it is worth; Simple. I take my own cider brewing a little more seriously than the method you describe, not a hell of a lot...yet! 

Dont let a little flame action bring you down, your entitled to make a post and inadvertently here and there your going to upset Bum. I've done it, and I'm sure many before have as well. You may notice that above Bum's thingo on the left is "not entitled to an opinion" this is sarcasm as below that about an inch you will read he has 10,000 odd posts under his belt. So what conclusion can be drawn from this you ask? Well, I'd say Bum is entitled to an opinion, just like the rest of us, and he aint scared to share it with you. 

The Bum can come off a little harsh...thats being nice, and you can argue with him all day ( I'm sure he feeds off it ). I tried it once, didnt really work, because it happens that the majority of the time Bum is right. He just is not in possesion of the social skills required to convey his messages in a more easily digestable method than the current way he does it. Either that or Bum just likes to do it that way. Maybe he does have the neccesary social skills, he just chooses to use others. 

I'm not ragging on you Bum.....or maybe I am...I'm sure you'll tell me if you feel that way and I look forward to your comments. I'm just saying that, and I quote, "**** this thread" might of been just a little rough, even for you, to enter into this post. You are capable of much more that that Bum! Thats my opinion anyway. 

I dont particularly agree with this method of cider making, I'm confident there are far superior and safer ways to make a little apple booze. But each to their own, take from it what you will and do with it what you please. There's more than one way to do most things. Anyway there's my ten cents worth. 

To summarize, keep posting your experiences, its a free world, dont take anything to heart. Welcome to the forum and Bums non entitled opinions LOL. As I said before, I look forward to your comments!


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## Damien13 (20/5/13)

noice... well put good sir


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## bum (20/5/13)

Deep End said:


> There's more than one way to do most things.


Absolutely and you'll (almost) never hear me say otherwise.

Conversely, there are lots of shit ways do things. When we deliberately choose to do them shitly we should have the good grace to be quiet about them - not revel in them publicly and instruct others how to do same.


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## fletcher (20/5/13)

while bum lacked tact, he made some valid points. having said that, it's the internet so here's a picture of a cat's head inside bread.


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## Deep End (20/5/13)

It's sad...I've read your reply over and over for a few minutes and I cant argue the point with you really. I have to agree that in essence, once again, in a perfect world you would be correct. 

Sadly, however we dont live in one. When I read Clay's post initially I just read it and moved on to the next without much thought. But I'll give it one thing, there are bold warnings in 2 places, and and the end of the day how much harm is it going to cause? Its low pressure plastic, I dont think anyone's going to lose an eye if the Bum falls out the bottom of the bottle under pressure ( excuse the pun! ). Yea, no gravity readings, measurements, use of common, easily accessable equipment or methods. 

It's not the recipe for cider you would take to the ark for an impending doomsday event! But does it cause any harm? I dont think so. If anything at least its got some intelligient after discussion that would most likely thwart any possible harm it could of done if left unattended. 

It is a forum after all; a place for discussion, one could consider it a quite succesful post depending on what angle you approach it from. But I do hear what your saying Bum, dont neccesarily agree with your method of approach, but enjoy reading them and commenting to them nevertheless.


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## Deep End (20/5/13)

Fletcher: I dont disagree with what you said. And the Cat looks rather annoyed with the whole bread thing. Good call. 

Your response however has me thinking, we have guides for how to do this, and how to do that all over the forum. Maybe I could spend a little time behind the keys and write " The definitive(ish) guide on how to handle Bum dropping in on your thread and telling you how it is" I know the title is a bit long and could do with some work, but its just a thought! LOL


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## bum (20/5/13)

Deep End said:


> Sadly, however we dont live in one.


And so we don't deserve to hope for better?



Deep End said:


> But does it cause any harm? I dont think so.


You're too new to know how very wrong you are. This board used to be populated by people who knew how to do stuff and would share that knowldge (outside of PMs - ******* cowards). One half-arsed guide put paid to that almost single handedly.



Deep End said:


> Maybe I could spend a little time behind the keys and write " The definitive(ish) guide on how to handle Bum dropping in on your thread and telling you how it is"


It would be about as accurate as the guide under question. You're as well qualified to instruct other on that topic as he is in making ciders.


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## Deep End (20/5/13)

It's too late or I cant be arsed using the quote feature, one or the other. But here's my retort.

Yes you can hope, never said you couldn't, what would a world be without hope! 

Yes I am very new to this community in comparison to many, including yourself. I was referring to immediate physical harm, and I guess you'd say I should have been more specific, maybe I should of (shrug shoulders). Dont fully grasp where you going with that comment, dont have the history to.

And I see you quoted the "maybe". Very important part of that line, was written as humour not as intent, I wouldn't be so bold as to attempt to write a guide on anything unless I had all the facts at hand, and I have little to work with in your department as far as factual information is concerned.

I look forward to your comments


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## pk.sax (20/5/13)

Deep end, did you also read the 10s of threads every pisshead makes about how he made cider by chucking a ton of sugar in a bucket with some juice or a kit.

Would you expect a guide on a home brewing forum that says, "put together a kit + kilo of sugar + yeast, dilute to 23L with tap water and keep at or close to 27C"? I'm guessing 90% of people will tell the writer to bugger off and bring something Coopers didn't already tell them on little foldout. What exactly did Sic really tell anyone? The whole thread is a waste of space. Now, he isn't exactly the pioneer who invented brewing in bottles, he isn't telling anyone anything new, he isn't even giving much good advice. He's telling people how he made some cheap booze that he puts cordial into to make it taste just like the nasty stuff we get in the supermarket. Bravo. Shout him a xxxx next time you see him.

I don't get why people don't treat making alcohol with at least a little respect. It can harm you. You make bad hooch and it will hurt you, sooner or later. Sure, many take shortcuts, many also know wtf they are trying to do. Sic's methods are akin to not wanting to know what goes on, just make something that gets you pissed. It might just be quicker and cheaper to get a sodastream, carbonate apple juice and pour a shot of vodka in each bottle. Actually, that would be a lot cleaner and possibly less likely to poison someone in the long run. Then you wonder why some would look at a homebrewer as yet another dodgy cheapo drunk. It's idiots like this. This is like when Carniebrew made a 'guide' on how to brew with extract. Despite a lot of indication he went ahead and started off by trying to talk down every reason a grain brewer brews so. Sic is doing the exact same thing. Why do you think he's going to get any damn respect.


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## Deep End (21/5/13)

Practicalfool Firstly I would like to clearly distinguish my main points, I have gone about explaining in a rather elongated way. 1. I dont disagree with the essence of what Bum or you are saying. 2. I am of the opinion that this was a forum, therefore anyone who is a member is entitled to make a post about whatever he/she feels as long as it relates to the subject matter of that particular area. No matter how fucked up it might be in the eyes of others.

If this wasn't the case I would expect that all articles would be submitted pending editorial approval until you had built up a reputation as such that you were not going to randomly post content that was not up to an expected standard. Which was the process I went through on a creative, knowledgable writing website I once frequented. I got self publishing rights pretty quickly, but thats beside the point, because from my understanding that is not what forums are about. 

Not everyone is an expert, I am far from an expert in any field relating to brewing, its a hobby I enjoy and am trying to improve, but should my lack of expertise stop me from sharing my experiences with anyone within the forum that wishes to read them?

The post wasnt titled a guide. It's called "Clays Cider {SIMPLE}" for those that have forgotten, I'll give you it reads like a guide, and I guess it encourages you to have a go at doing it that way. Didnt get me though, I'm quite happy with my sterilised procedures, hydrometers, and the way I do things now, although I'm always trying to improve my methods.

And as I said in my initial post "**** this thread" is a bit harsh, didnt solve anything, didnt help anything did it? Elitist attitudes dont solve much. I was/am merely trying to throw shield in to a bloke that was getting rushed by an angry mob, for lack of a better description. And I'm only doing that because the mood has taken me. So go ahead hang some shit on me, I've got thick skin and a few megabytes of internet left before I run out and have to give vodaphone some more money LOL


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## Deep End (21/5/13)

Anyway, thanks for entertaining my fingers and mind for the last hour or so. I think I'll call it a night and go watch some Tv


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## punkin (21/5/13)

Airgead said:


> Yeah... the one problem with the ad hoc approach to cider making (bung some juice and stuff together and go for it) is that it may well make a great cider but it may well equally make something awful... and you won't know why. Even more importantly, you won't know how to do it again, or not do it again if it was awful.
> 
> A few hydrometer readings aren't exactly hard and the equipment isn't exactly expensive. Its a tiny investment in time and equipment for a huge improvement in consistency. In fact anyone who ever bought a home brew kit already has a hydrometer somewhere.
> 
> ...



Try this one next time you mash. An old timey Moonshiners trick.

65 degrees C is a temperature you can stick your finger in 3 times but not want to stick it in a 4th.

It's pretty accurate (within a couple of degrees) any hotter and you won't get the third go, any cooler and you'll be able to do the 4th. B)


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## slcmorro (21/5/13)

Thanks for the support, for those who were adult enough to actually lend it.

To the wankers (read: Bum etc) that decided it'd be more constructive to throw out insults without substance (until questioned later) and make themselves feel big or look cool in front of the other kids, kindly draw from vast reserves of obvious experience, and eat a dick  

FYI - The other thread that you mention which yes, is a lot better than mine, was posted a couple of hours after this one. Had it been done before hand, I still probably would have shown my techniques and methods. Think, if I didn't, your existences would have been that little bit duller, not having a person to aim your flamegun at for a couple of days. Summed up in a word, sad.


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## philmud (21/5/13)

FWIW, while people can be a bit abrasive on here (opinionated, pissed/hungover/rather be drinking blokes) it's worth considering the enormous collective knowledge held by some of these cranky people - it's the best home brew resource I have available to me, and if someone tells me my idea sucks, I'll take that as feedback & move on. In this case, I think the OP was probably a bit naive in posting such a basic & problematic tutorial - how would I go if I posted a tutorial for the edification of others explaining how to bang together a kit & kilo, but ignored lots of simple and important techniques? I'd probably get told to **** off.

OP, hang around and you'll probably learn that the culture on the forum encourages people to follow whatever process they choose, but to do it well. Your cider method may be satisfactory to you, but you could absolutely make a better/more repeatable product, and if you read up here, you'll learn how without much more effort/cost.


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## slcmorro (21/5/13)

Absolutely, Phil Mud. I agree entirely. Sure it could be better, sure it could be scrapped entirely, but it is what it is and I put it up to show how I do things. If I was going to put in every single little disclaimer to ward off the flamers, then the post would be 10 pages long. But blow me down if a bit of humility or a little bit of tact from these cranky bastards wouldn't go a long way. 

'**** this thread' is akin to saying 'Yeah, well your Mum is fat'. It's give and take as far as I'm concerned, and whether I've made 5 posts or 5000 posts, I'll not be one to treat others with utter contempt just because there's a keyboard between me and them.


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## Airgead (21/5/13)

Hi Folks

First up, if my comments in this thread were a little harsh, I do apologise. I blame Bum. He's a bad influence. :beerbang: So are 3 pints of pale ale and a stiff whiskey.

My whole reason for posting here is to encourage people to take that extra step and turn their cider into something special. When I look at a bunch of ingredients I have a choice. I can put in minimum effort and make something average. Or I can put in just a tiny bit if extra care and effort and make something great. I don't know about you but I'd much rather drink something great any day.

Cheers
Dave


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (21/5/13)

Okey dokey, thought I'd address a couple of things.

Methods to handle bum - click on "block this user". When he is blocked, he will not be seen, but you have the ability to click "show this post". This is helpful as it allows you to filter his comments based on context (including if he's the first comment after yours, don't bother. If it's worth seeing, someone will quote it). The problem with bum is that when he isn't being obnoxious, he can make some very valid, very well thought out comments and his expertise is actually excellent (better than mine, I will admit).

For the record, he's right. This thread really shouldn't be here. There are plenty of "how to do ALDI/Just juice cider" threads floating around here, and whilst having a similar content, do espouse far better practices. I appreciate that @OP had good intentions and wants to give back to a community that has shared a great deal with him. But the best way to do this is ask lots of questions and stimulate good debate, at this stage.

On the other side of the fence, bum's method of dealing with this, shows the same social skill as my 7 month old - only with lots of expletives.


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## GalBrew (21/5/13)

I think the timing of this thread did not help either, in the context of Bum going off tap over exactly this very issue (re: and upshot in bad 'advice' in the forum).


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## manticle (21/5/13)

bum said:


> . This board used to be populated by people who knew how to do stuff and would share that knowldge


Many of them were kind and patient with noobs. I remember some of the stupid things that came from me when I was young and enthusiastic only a few years ago. People (in the main) treated me with some gentleness and I learned a lot.

I see your main point and agree with it but, like others I think your introduction to it would be more effective if phrased differently. You don't teach someone to swim by standing on their fingers when they hold onto the edge of the swimming pool.


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## pk.sax (21/5/13)

I, for one find your analogy inaccurate here tickler. Sic is jumping right in and making a tutorial. Not exactly holding on to the edge... kinda like, hey kids, it's my first day, I brought a whistle, now, everyone line up by the board and jump when I say.

PS: Did you start making guides when you were 'young and enthusiastic'?

PPS: If it weren't for the sheer cheek of the thread all it'd have got would be DASFFS


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## manticle (21/5/13)

While I don't think the guide is necessary, the analogy of 'I brought a whistle....' is no better than mine in regards to the pool.

Let's forget the analogies for a second - I suggest there are more effective ways of communicating than some of those encountered thus far.


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## pk.sax (21/5/13)

I can agree to that.


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## jyo (21/5/13)

My whistle is always small when in the pool, but that's only because the water is cold.


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## Fossey (21/5/13)

slcmorro said:


> and whether I've made 5 posts or 5000...


Someone who has made 5 posts on one forum may have made 5000 on another, you have to start somewhere. Forums are for advice based on personal experience so take what you want from each post and offer up what you deem appropriate.


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## Bribie G (21/5/13)

My cider yeast has arrived in the mail. Tomorrow I shall purchase 20L of supermarket juice and pour it into my 20L BCF fermenter, add a tsp of CraftBrewer yeast nutrient, a kilo of da sugaz, ferment for a week or so and then, without a hydro reading, rack it into a keg and after a couple of days start drinking.

It will be refreshing, fruity and drinkable as always. Often the preceding keg of cider will take a while to serve so the new batch will be dryish so I backsweeten with apple juice. Other times the old keg will have been drunk quickly so the new batch will still be unattenuated and sweetish. bonus.

Then it will continue and work slowly in the keg, producing its own gas so I can keep the cylinder tuned off. bonus.

As it becomes more dry I will backsweeten in the glass with apple juice.

beer / cider: different brews, different rules.


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## bum (21/5/13)

slcmorro said:


> To the wankers (read: Bum etc) that decided it'd be more constructive to throw out insults without substance


In my own defence (assuming this is something I'm allowed to do), I haven't really issued any personal remarks. I have, however, seen a great many of them directed my way and I haven't even responded in kind.



slcmorro said:


> FYI - The other thread that you mention which yes, is a lot better than mine, was posted a couple of hours after this one.


Shit, I am sorry about that then. Not sure how I buggered up the timing stuff. I guess I just assumed it was more recent as it was active but with fewer posts. MY bad.



slcmorro said:


> Think, if I didn't, your existences would have been that little bit duller, not having a person to aim your flamegun at for a couple of days.


No shortage of targets, I'm afraid. Also, you might want to read the thread again - I'm actually fairly on topic throughout. Swears don't turn a real post in to a flame.



manticle said:


> I suggest there are more effective ways of communicating than some of those encountered thus far.


I cannot imagine a more effective way to say "**** this thread" than saying "**** this thread". I am not sure why you think my intention is (or why it should be) helping OP. OP has clearly read the recent cider tutorials and said "**** those threads - here's the way easy shit". I don;t care about OP, OP has made a clear decision. My concern is for people reading the thread from ignorance I'd like them to know how fucked this thread is.

Anyway, guys, you're getting ahead of yourselves. DeepEnd is drafting the "How to fix bum" thread already.

(You may want to take notes on that one, Cocko.)


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## manticle (21/5/13)

bum said:


> I cannot imagine a more effective way to say "**** this thread" than saying "**** this thread". I am not sure why you think my intention is (or why it should be) helping OP. OP has clearly read the recent cider tutorials and said "**** those threads - here's the way easy shit". I don;t care about OP, OP has made a clear decision. My concern is for people reading the thread from ignorance I'd like them to know how fucked this thread is.



My point is not limited to the OP - indeed the OP is least important in that regard. You take umbrage with the idea that there might be people who read the guide and think 'cool'. Your initial contribution will not change that by much, if anything. '**** this thread' does nothing to help people make good cider.

That's why I suggest your method of communication could be more effective.


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## bum (21/5/13)

You're probably right as my communication is clearly ineffective. Can't seem to get the simplest of points across, apparently.


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## Bribie G (21/5/13)

Quite so


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## manticle (21/5/13)

You can get them across fine for the most part. It's your opening address that's likely to alienate people.
Try 'friends, romans, countrymen' or somesuch next time (and stop playing the victim - you were a rude prick and some people told you so. You'll live and so should Clay).


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## bum (22/5/13)

manticle said:


> It's your opening address that's likely to alienate people


How so? It actually seems to have encouraged people to rally around and point out where the deficiencies the OP lies (a selective list, obviously). Whodathunkit?

The only product of this thread would have been a few posts of thanks from noobs, silence from people who know and a tonne of sub-par cider.


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## manticle (22/5/13)

Could have been encouraged with a similar motive but different process is my point.

Smacking someone on the ear because you're right and they're wrong can generate discussion but is it the best or most effective way to communicate that? As much (or more) discussion has been generated about you being an areshole as has been about the quality of information.


You know you're rude - to argue that point is futile. It's more whether or not you think that rudeness is the best vehicle to get the job done. I propose there are better ways, particularly in circumstances such as these.


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## bum (22/5/13)

manticle said:


> You know you're rude - to argue that point is futile.


That would be why I've never done it.



manticle said:


> It's more whether or not you think that rudeness is the best vehicle to get the job done. I propose thete are better ways, particularly in circumstances such as these.


I propose that the state of the board in general proves you utterly and completely wrong.


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## manticle (22/5/13)

I propose that you being rude has done little to change the state of the board.


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## bum (22/5/13)

I propose (yet again) that lots of people who would not have commented negatively under any other circumstance have done so ONLY so that they could comment on my behaviour.

I also propose you follow Goomba's advice. Your disappointment is too much of a burden for me to carry.


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## manticle (22/5/13)

You mean blocking user names?
Seriously? 
I'm not that guy and I'm not disappointed particularly with you.

I made a simple point while agreeing with the essence of what you were getting at.
Some diplomacy, while remaining critical can be more effective.
If you really believe '**** this thread' is the only phrase or that attitude is the only route to critical discussion, then I'd be pretty surprised.

Mode of delivery is all we are talking about. Do you stand by yours as the best?


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## bum (22/5/13)

Let me present an example:

The people who told me to go **** myself were heard and understood and no more was needed to be said by either side.

How do you think your point is coming along?


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## manticle (22/5/13)

Actually re-reading and case in point - first response in this thread was from airgead with some legitimate and well laid out critique.
No **** youse in sight until after that.


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## manticle (22/5/13)

bum said:


> Let me present an example:The people who told me to go **** myself were heard and understood and no more was needed to be said by either side.How do you think your point is coming along?


Sorry, what? Be clear rather than a sarcastic, elusive prick. You're not Salman Rushdie. Say what you mean, clearly, define your terms and discuss them.

You being deliberately obtuse is nothing to do with my ability to communicate. I see you as more intelligent than an argument for its own sake kind of guy.


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## slcmorro (22/5/13)

This entire thread after the OP has gone on and on, with mountains of arrogance, self-righteousness and blind bashing, with little or no help to either the community or those who have bothered to try to share their knowledge. It's a big shame. I'm not disheartened or turned away, I'll continue to participate on the forums and try to contribute where I can regardless of if it doesn't meet the lofty standards of a few. 



bum said:


> In my own defence (assuming this is something I'm allowed to do), I haven't really issued any personal remarks. I have, however, seen a great many of them directed my way and I haven't even responded in kind.


There shouldn't be a need to defend your behaviour. Someone who is prepared to defend their behaviour is usually an antagonist. I'm sensing you're quite an intelligent person, who enjoys using the internet as a means to generate conflict and argument, thereby virtually stroking your own ego whilst in the comfort of your own chair at home. Forward me your postal address. I have the perfect 'Keyboard Warrior' sticker for the back window of your car. Free of charge. And perhaps a fat white cat and a box of cheap cigars.


> No shortage of targets, I'm afraid.


Clearly not. Targets will never be in short supply when the shooter is unbiased towards what he's shooting.



> OP has clearly read the recent cider tutorials and said "**** those threads - here's the way easy shit"



Partially correct. Whilst I haven't discounted the other threads nor publically attacked the authors, I respect others for putting their learnings up. All I did was make a 'simple' thread with simple details about how I make my simple cider, which I personally am happy with to date.

What exactly is wrong about doing it a different way? Like others have said earlier, if it doesn't work or it's not to your liking you A: haven't endangered yourself (let's be realistic here), B: have only wasted a small amount of time and money and C: learned how you personally don't want to make cider. If it does work and it is to your liking, then you've only gained, not lost.



bum said:


> You're probably right as my communication is clearly ineffective. Can't seem to get the simplest of points across, apparently.


Arrogant.



bum said:


> The only product of this thread would have been a few posts of thanks from noobs, silence from people who know and a tonne of sub-par cider.


Presumptuous. Have you made it this way? Has anyone who has actually turned their nose up at it, made it in this manner? I'm personally happy with the results, and that's good enough for me. Forgive me for thinking that since my lowly standards are appeased, that heaven forbid perhaps one other soul in the world may be content with such results also.



bum said:


> I propose (yet again) that lots of people who would not have commented negatively under any other circumstance have done so ONLY so that they could comment on my behaviour.


The phrase 'haters gonna hate' comes to mind here. Such a waste.


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## bum (22/5/13)

manticle said:


> Sorry, what? Be clear rather than a sarcastic, elusive prick. You're not Salman Rushdie. Say what you mean, clearly, define your terms and discuss them.
> 
> You being deliberately obtuse is nothing to do with my ability to communicate. I see you as more intelligent than an argument for its own sake kind of guy.


How is my point unclear? Or even able to be labeled as pure sarcasm for that matter? I am directly and openly suggesting that the method you're suggesting I follow (by both word and deed) is futile. Not just in the case of my own behaviour but also everone else's.


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## manticle (22/5/13)

bum said:


> Let me present an example:
> 
> The people who told me to go **** myself were heard and understood and no more was needed to be said by either side.



The meaning of this is unclear.





> How do you think your point is coming along?


This reads as sarcastic.

I withdraw from this conversation. Might just as soon debate with my cat.


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## GalBrew (22/5/13)

bum said:


> The only product of this thread would have been a few posts of thanks from noobs, silence from people who know and a tonne of sub-par cider.





slcmorro said:


> Presumptuous. Have you made it this way? Has anyone who has actually turned their nose up at it, made it in this manner? I'm personally happy with the results, and that's good enough for me. Forgive me for thinking that since my lowly standards are appeased, that heaven forbid perhaps one other soul in the world may be content with such results also.


Ok, I feel the need to chime in as one of the 'silent people who know'. With all due respect the advice given in the OP is crap and will not result in a good product, no matter how you spin it. There isn't even a way of estimating ABV, which is not even particularly safe (this is food production after all). The main problem here is that the OP is writing a 'guide', when it is clealy obvious that you have little knowledge to guide with. I have been on this forum and brewing for a couple of years and would never be as presumptuous to write a guide on anything and only give out basic advice to noobs (which I really am still one) on topics that I have good knowledge and experience with. This forum is supposed to be about sharing knowledge to promote the science and art of homebrewing to improve peoples' understanding and processes; not the quickest and easiest way to produce and alcoholic drink (you can also put some bread and water in a bag and leave it near the heater if you want).

To the OP, hang around, ask questions, search the cider topics and improve your process. There is a wealth of information available. You don't have to go overboard if that is not your thing, but I personally think if you are going to be producing and foodstuff/drink and giving it to people you have a responsibility to know what you are doing. :beer:


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## bum (22/5/13)

manticle said:


> I withdraw from this conversation. Might just as soon debate with my cat.


Finishing with a personal remark. Excellent way to underscore your point. Well played.


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## carpedaym (22/5/13)

In case anybody else clicked on this thread thinking they would learn a simple way to brew cider, I will risk being constructive...

I just finished my first attempt. I removed 500mL of juice from 3L bottles, fermented it out to dry, added apple juice from a new 2L bottle to get it to 1.010, my estimate at how dry/sweet I'd like it.

(What I did after this point I probably wouldn't do again or recommend, but will list it anyway. I had read about pasteurization, so I bottled them then opened one a day until they were well-carbed. I then pasteurized at 75 degrees, but even still, I was afraid of bottle-bombs and have kept them in the fridge anyways.)

My suggestion to the OP's method which may address a few criticisms: why not pour more of the original juice out and ferment out to dry. This way you basically know your ABV. Add back some juice to backsweeten, then proceed with your in-bottle carbonation, sticking it in the fridge after it's carbed enough. 

My reasoning for going down this track is that I'd spend less time checking hydro readings.

Just my 2/5ths of a dime


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## slcmorro (22/5/13)

^ this, is constructive - take note. Respect to you, carpedaym.


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## Dave70 (22/5/13)

Since late April..

Clay's Cider (SIMPLE!) 


Crap Cider 


Made cider out of kellybrook apples 


Cider Experiment Phase 1 


My First Apple Cider Batch 


How to get started in Cider. The definitive(ish) guide to beginner 


Mangrove Jack Pear Cider 


Cider Infection... 


Cider with "top shelf" type flavouring essences? 


2nd Cider about to go down 


Second go with a brigalow 


Another annoying cider thread 


piss easy cider recipe 


Advice with first cider. 


Juice and strain - cider making made simple from whole apples 


Basic Cider Recipe Help 
**** me sideways, we're not exactly making _Gueuze _here. 


May I suggest we have a specific cider sub-forum.
Followed by a prison hooch sub-sub forum where it's fine to post about how you produced a beverage by steeping Artline markers in hot water and adding bread yeast.


Bums only crime.....is caring to much..


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## pk.sax (22/5/13)

Actually, if you searched back a bit, there are threads discussing converting the label stated sugar content to OG, threads going back all the way to when we started discussing using the bottles as pre-sterilised fermenters, head space, carbonation and sweetness control, workarounds to not measuring fg, I even remember posting a picture of a really clear brewed in the bottle glass of cider.
I believe those threads also recommended in varying degrees that its a convenient method to dip your toe and learn your sweet spots before commuting to 20-30L at a time. I even got some comment at the time from more experienced cider makers who prefer the dry and aged and we had some discussion on the merits of partially sweet cider, a few, like me preferred to not having to add lactose or pasteurise and figured these methods were the right fit for our limited consumption. Horses for courses.

Unfortunately, to search and read back is clearly not something prison hooch makers want to do. Compounding is the amount of trash threads one would have to ignore to go back that far. I know I filter threads when searching by quick and precise comments from people whose advice I trust before reading page on page of possible drivel. Well done Bum, your precise comment would be very handy a year down the line for anyone not wanting to waste time on this thread.

In other news, lecter must be getting a kick out of this one


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## slcmorro (22/5/13)

practicalfool said:


> In other news, lecter must be getting a kick out of this one


Oh he is, I promise!


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## TSMill (22/5/13)

My simultaneous on-topic and off-topic advice is to not bother with the pricks. CO2 will still escape and you reduce the chance of infection.

Method is pretty similar to oz tops, which I doubt many would use a hydrometer for. No big deal if you are drinking at home and not driving. As you have stated, temperature is stable and your ability to estimate yeast pitch rate no less accurate than anyone culturing up on a stir plate.

Dunno what all the fuss is about.


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## slcmorro (22/5/13)

^ this also.


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## Matty McFly (30/5/13)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4fWN6VvgKQ


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## Bribie G (30/5/13)

I have suggested a Cider and Perry subforum to be on an equal footing with All Grain, Partials, Kits n Extracts and Other brewing (e.g. wines, mead, braggot, melomel, pruno etc).


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## Deep End (11/6/13)

Ahh, Its good to be back (ran out of spare cash for internet for a month or so!). Been an interesting read since I last posted. 

Bum, I said I never intended to write the "How to deal with Bum" guide, so unfortunately there is no draft. Twas a wee grasp at humour amongst my original postings. 

Anyway, as you can see just recharged the old prepaid internet, and bought another barrel while I was at it, and some good ol Brigalow cider cans plus 20L of juice and assorted other things, time to bump up production! 

'Tis good to be back on the forum. I still stand by my original post on this thread but dont imagine I'll venture any further down this 4 page path. Enough has been said on the matter I reckon. So I'll bid you all fair greetings and go make some cider me thinks!


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