# Moving Away From K&k



## nuggetron (4/6/12)

i read a post somewhere about how easy it is to go to grain for a small 9L batch 
it was a biab
i was looking at having a go at it in the near future

can anyone tell me what i need to do a BIAB, where to get it from and a price 
and if not asking too much a good first brew to do

cheers fellow drinkers


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## twizt1d (4/6/12)

look into getting a 40 litre urn, sure you can do small batches and **** around with smaller pots but when you pour your first pint of a 10l batch you will wish it was 23l


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## bum (4/6/12)

nuggetron said:


> i read a post somewhere about how easy it is to go to grain for a small 9L batch
> it was a biab
> i was looking at having a go at it in the near future


Here you go:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=38674

Have fun with it.


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## nuggetron (4/6/12)

voile squares
where from? spotlight or something?
the rest im sure i can pick up from somewhere nice and easily


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## bum (4/6/12)

Swiss voile from spotlight.

They'll try to tell you they don't have it, They do. Insist.

[EDIT: stuffed up, pretty poor timing too]


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## nuggetron (4/6/12)

cheers peoples

any recommended brews? hops yeasts etcs


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## bum (4/6/12)

What do you like?

The board is full of recipes and all of them can be adapted to the method outlined in that thread (within reason).


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## nuggetron (4/6/12)

honestly im open to anything i enjoy corona which i know people arent fans off due to the lack of flavour, love grolsch, anything but stouts too strong for me


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## blotto (4/6/12)

tonesbrew said:


> look into getting a 40 litre urn, sure you can do small batches and **** around with smaller pots but when you pour your first pint of a 10l batch you will wish it was 23l



I agree it's easy to set up a biab rig so you might as well go for a 40-50L pot/urn because you won't look back. If your based in WA some guys on another forum are having a biab brew day this weekend in freo. Pm me if you want more info. If your really set on tiny batches have a look at beer smith2 I'm sure you could use a trial version to scale a full size recipe down to 9L. 
Any way good luck and welcome to all grain :icon_cheers:


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## bum (4/6/12)

Then I'm not your man. If Nick details a recipe in that thread it'll probably be serviceable for you. Probably something like a Aussie/Euro lager-esque thing.


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## twizt1d (4/6/12)

try smurto's golden ale
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=502

add the recipe into brewmate and you should be able to scale the recipe down to a smaller batch size


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## nuggetron (4/6/12)

cheers for that guys giving me a big decision on what to do now
quick replies i like that


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## nuggetron (5/6/12)

looking at small batches for now

not sure i have this right but open for any recommendations thoughts etc

2000 grams of weyermann ale malt
25 grams of weyermann Carafa Special T1 Malt
50 grams of Thomas Fawcett Crystal Malt Pale 
70 grams of weyermann Carabelge Malt 

Hersbrucker Hops 3 plugs at 30 mins
Hersbrucker Hops 3 plugs at 50 mins


Safale S04 yeast


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## twizt1d (5/6/12)

if you like coronas try 2kg of weyermann pils and 25 IBU's of galena @ 60 mins (probably ~8g)
use US-05 and ferment it as cold as you can
you might even get away with using S-23 if you can keep it BELOW 17c for a week


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## DU99 (5/6/12)

i got my voile from a lincraft store if that helps


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## beerdrinkingbob (5/6/12)

I found voile at lincraft too du99, the issue I had was it cotton voil not polyester. 

Spotlight definitely has the one your after nuggerton, go straight to curtain section and you're in business!!


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## ben_sa (5/6/12)

If u cant be effed with the voile, I got my bag from G&G for $10...


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## Bribie G (5/6/12)

If you like Corona, and decide to go with the small pot to see how it goes, then a good brew to try is:

2kg lager malt 
500g flaked maize.

Mash for an hour at 66 degrees 

Drain, sparge and boil with 15g Galena for 60 mins.

Combine the resulting wort with a tin of Coopers Cerveza and make up to 23L in the fermenter

Ferment with US-05 

Makes a great lawnmower beer as you can see







This would be an easy intro to AG without spending too much. If you then decide to go bigger then the stock pot is always handy in any brewery.


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## nuggetron (5/6/12)

how much is enough for the swiss voile, craft brewer have a bag for 20 which seems pretty reasonable

secondly i found a grolsch clone recipe, i have found all the ingredients with the exception of dry extra light extract, i need 2.25 Kg of it or a similar substitute, and irish moss, im guessing thats a clearing agent and is solely for aesthetics of the beer and doesnt affect the beer? correct me if im wrong
was looking to buy the whole brew off of craft brewer if possible, cause my local home brew shop guy is terrible i asked for lactose and it took 45 minutes to explain why i wanted lactose for a lemonade and not the pack, anyways online is my preference

i think i found the dry extra light malt
http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=1001


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## Paul H (5/6/12)

Ahh so that's how you make a lawn mower beer.. I always forgot the lawn mower.  

Cheers

Paul


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## mwd (5/6/12)

nuggetron said:


> how much is enough for the swiss voile, craft brewer have a bag for 20 which seems pretty reasonable
> 
> secondly i found a grolsch clone recipe, i have found all the ingredients with the exception of dry extra light extract, i need 2.25 Kg of it or a similar substitute, and irish moss, im guessing thats a clearing agent and is solely for aesthetics of the beer and doesnt affect the beer? correct me if im wrong
> was looking to buy the whole brew off of craft brewer if possible, cause my local home brew shop guy is terrible i asked for lactose and it took 45 minutes to explain why i wanted lactose for a lemonade and not the pack, anyways online is my preference
> ...



A couple of metres of voile should do you. Trim to fit and have some spare for a hop sack.

Seeing as you are getting from CB suggest spending a couple of dollars more and buy some Briess Pilsen Light it is the lightest malt extract I have seen and should be good in your Grolsh.


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## Nick JD (5/6/12)

Try this:

Grolsch Clone
German Pilsner (Pils)

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 9.0
Total Grain (kg): 1.900
Total Hops (g): 40.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.049 (P): 12.1
Final Gravity (FG): 1.012 (P): 3.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.81 %
Colour (SRM): 4.6 (EBC): 9.1
Bitterness (IBU): 26.0 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 75
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
1.800 kg Pilsner (94.74%)
0.100 kg Caramalt (5.26%)

Hop Bill
----------------
15.0 g Hallertau Pellet (3.4% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.7 g/L)
25.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.4% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (2.8 g/L)

Single step Infusion at 65C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 14C with Saflager S-189


Recipe Generated with BrewMate


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## Bribie G (5/6/12)

The craft brewer full size BIAB bags are actually a nylon material and very sturdy, but I just got a sheet of voile, cut it to a circle and hemmed it around on a sewing machine (man that was a wild ride for 10 minutes) - or you can just seal the edge with a gas BBQ lighter they tell me. 
Far easier to clean than a bag. 

For smaller batches CB also do a 60cm x 60cm grain bag which is stretchy material but I've done a couple of K mini BIAB in them - they make a brilliant hop bag.


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## nuggetron (6/6/12)

last question i promise
exposed or unexposed element in an urn?


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## QldKev (6/6/12)

Bribie G said:


> If you like Corona, and decide to go with the small pot to see how it goes, then a good brew to try is:
> 
> 2kg lager malt
> 500g flaked maize.
> ...




lawnmower beer...


I dis-agree... I've poured plenty of that into my lawn mower and the sucker just wont start 


QldKev


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## HBHB (6/6/12)

QldKev said:


> lawnmower beer...
> 
> 
> I dis-agree... I've poured plenty of that into my lawn mower and the sucker just wont start
> ...



Not enough rice Kev. :kooi:


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## scmgre (6/6/12)

Bribie G said:


> The craft brewer full size BIAB bags are actually a nylon material and very sturdy, but I just got a sheet of voile, cut it to a circle and hemmed it around on a sewing machine (man that was a wild ride for 10 minutes) - or you can just seal the edge with a gas BBQ lighter they tell me.
> Far easier to clean than a bag.
> 
> For smaller batches CB also do a 60cm x 60cm grain bag which is stretchy material but I've done a couple of K mini BIAB in them - they make a brilliant hop bag.



ARRRGRGRGR I spent 2 hours in spotlight trying to purchase Swiss voile and the thread. I finally took it home and just copied the design of my hop bag. i.e. cut a rectangle and a circle. I then spent 1 hour reading the sewing machine manual and had to thread the dreaded machine, not a task to be undertaken lightly. 
I then sewed it together, 2 seams plus a draw string... bloody Nightmare. 
If my local home brew shop had sold a bag big enough I would have bought it.


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## nuggetron (7/6/12)

Gareth R Evans said:


> If my local home brew shop had sold a bag big enough I would have bought it.



so buying one for 20 is better?


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## homebrewkid (7/6/12)

nuggetron said:


> so buying one for 20 is better?




well it depends on your sewing ability i guess, or your ability to get someone to do it for you.


cheers: HBK


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## Nick JD (7/6/12)

Cut a voile circle and run a lighter around the perimeter preventing fraying. 

Takes 5 minutes. 

If you want to know how big the circle should be ... make it big enough that it contains your pot. Read that twice if you are confused.


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## nuggetron (8/6/12)

only question i have is how will it stay if i do that like not let it falls in the pot
i originally was going to just use the lighter but thought i would need elastic or something


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## Bribie G (8/6/12)

Drape the big square then cut off around, roughly






Then cut to a circle






Hem (or melt the edge)







Having a skyhook helps


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## nuggetron (11/6/12)

may be a stupid question
but the hops go into a bag? or just straight in the boil


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## seamad (11/6/12)

Pellets straight in and flowers in a bag


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## Nick JD (11/6/12)

nuggetron said:


> may be a stupid question
> but the hops go into a bag? or just straight in the boil



Depends. Some people like to contain them as it simplifies the whirlpool and reduces trub loss of wort and complications with IBU calculations if no-chilling - if they do they contain them in a HUGE bag - think half the size of your grain bag being optimum.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (11/6/12)

Commando.

I actually like flowers in commando, the break tends to be trapped better in them after whirlpool.


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## Bribie G (11/6/12)

Unless you are using an urn - one loose flower can bring your drain to a screaming halt. 
Craftbrewer sell $8 grain bags that you can peg round the top of the kettle and make a giant swimming pool for the hoppies, both pellets and flowers.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (11/6/12)

Bribie's right - I forgot to mention that I gravity feed from the top, so blocked taps aren't an issue.

Stupid me for not thinking (or posting with the kids yelling the house down), before posting.

Flowers - keep in a sock if you need to use a tap for any reason whatsoever.

Goomba


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## nuggetron (11/6/12)

cheers boys gunna buy the two bags and urn and hops form the brew shop and the yeast and malt from craft brewer tomorrow
brought a couple of hooks and a rope so im almost all set for the first BIAB


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## mikec (11/6/12)

nuggetron said:


> cheers boys gunna buy the two bags and urn and hops form the brew shop and the yeast and malt from craft brewer tomorrow
> brought a couple of hooks and a rope so im almost all set for the first BIAB



The Craftbrewer BIAB bag is a better shape than The Brew Shop (ESBrewing) one.


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## nuggetron (11/6/12)

eh should of got that one instead of buying rope and hooks to suspend it
issue how do u put the lid on when the hop bag is in it? do u put the lid on?


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## nuggetron (11/6/12)

one more stupid question
when you are adding hops at say 60 mins im assuming thats when you are boiling it and you are adding that hop at the 60th minute or immediately ie allowing it to be in the boil for 60 minutes if it was a 60 minute boil?

buying all the stuff for 375


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## nuggetron (11/6/12)

have bag tied to rope and rope over hooks
heat water to 68 degrees
turn off urn
lower bag in urn
pour in grain slowly mixing as you pour
put lid on
cover with blankets
wait 60 minutes
stir grain
hoist bag up
after 15 mins add Saaz
after 60 mins add Hallertau
remove hop sock
put lid on
when steaming turn off at power point
cover with clean clothe for 20 mins
pour into brew barrel leaving the crap at the bottom
wait for temperature to drop to 14 degrees
add yeast sugar and warm water in glass
when bubbling add to brew barrel

*Grolsch Clone* (German Pilsner (Pils))

Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (P): 3.3
Alcohol (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 19.4 (EBC): 38.2
Bitterness (IBU): 36.9 (Average)

91.53% Caramalt
8.47% Pilsner

1.7 g/L Hallertau Tradition (5.7% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
2.8 g/L Saaz (3.6% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 65C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 14C with Wyeast 2042 - Danish Lager


6kg of pilsner malt
0.333 kg of caramalt

84 g of saaz @ 15mins
50 g of hallertau @ 60 mins

Wyeast 2042 danish lager yeast

40 L urn concealed element
large hop sock
grain bag


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## bum (11/6/12)

nuggetron said:


> one more stupid question
> when you are adding hops at say 60 mins im assuming thats when you are boiling it and you are adding that hop at the 60th minute or immediately ie allowing it to be in the boil for 60 minutes if it was a 60 minute boil?



Boil it for 60 minutes.

Similarly, if a recipe says [some hop]@15 it means to boil it for 15 minutes (i.e. add it 15 minutes from the end of boil).

Good luck with it.


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## nuggetron (11/6/12)

oh and another question once boiled can i pour it into the coopers brewing barrel thing and let it cool in that in the brew fridge then when at 14 degrees add the yeast?


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## bum (11/6/12)

A lot of people seem to do it that way but have a look in the article section for something about 'no-chill' - viewed by many as a safer option. Not saying letting it cool in the fermenter is inherently unsafe but you do need to understand the risks to do it well, IMO.


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## nuggetron (11/6/12)

so i need to buy a cube?
or is it ok to go straight into the fermenter and into the fridge then yeast


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## bum (11/6/12)

A lot of people seem to do it that way but have a look in the article section for something about 'no-chill' - viewed by many as a safer option. Not saying letting it cool in the fermenter is inherently unsafe but you do need to understand the risks to do it well, IMO.


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## roverfj1200 (11/6/12)

I quite often "No chill" in a fermenter in my brew fridge. To get to pitch temp in a faster time. 

Cheers.


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## nuggetron (11/6/12)

no issues to worry about?
saves cleaning another container, less exposure time to the air, quicker time to get the yeast in
i think shes a go
time to buy the whole lot i think


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## ekul (11/6/12)

The extra convenience of a nochill cube is worth it though. ONce a brew is finsihed in the fermenter you can just pour the cube of wort on top. You can't do this with nochlling in the fermenter. PLus you will have to clean your fermenter after every ferment anyway, so it doesn't really save on cleaning



nuggetron said:


> no issues to worry about?
> saves cleaning another container, less exposure time to the air, quicker time to get the yeast in
> i think shes a go
> time to buy the whole lot i think


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## nuggetron (11/6/12)

ekul said:


> ONce a brew is finsihed in the fermenter you can just pour the cube of wort on top. You can't do this with nochlling in the fermenter.



huh?
im still only new to brewing in general 
ive done 4 k&k in total


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## jyo (11/6/12)

nuggetron said:


> so i need to buy a cube?
> or is it ok to go straight into the fermenter and into the fridge then yeast



It's not regarded as best practise (opens yourself up to airborne nasties), though it certainly works and I have done it many times when cubes are full.

Starsan your fermenter. If using an airlock, take it out and cram the hole with some starsan-soaked tissue to act as a filter for the air that _will_ suck in as the liquid cools. Make sure the lid is on super tight so that any air that will be sucked in will go in through the tissue filter. 

I will only do this if brewing at night so it has the cooler temps overnight to cool, then into the fermenting fridge in the morning (It's usually at about 32' at this stage depending on ambient temps) to chill down before pitching yeast. 

Cheers.


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## ekul (11/6/12)

nuggetron said:


> huh?
> im still only new to brewing in general
> ive done 4 k&k in total




So now that you're doing all grain you be using better yeast than the kits, but this yeast can be expensive. BUt if you look down the bottom of the fermenter after draining it you'll see a whole heap of yeast. What you can do is pour most of this yeast out, leaving a cups worth. Then pour another cube of wort on top of this yeast and start a new brew. Its not the best practice but plenty of people do it. It means you don't have to celan your fermenter very often. ONe of mine hadn't been cleaned for nearly 6 months.



If you were to cool the hot wort in the fermenter you wouldn't be able to do this because it would kill all the yeast (and probably lead to off flavours). Doesn't mean you'd have to buy yeast, but it means you'd have to clean out your fermenter every time.


PLus with nochill it means you can store the wort for long periods of time without fermenting it, i;ve kept them for eover a year Do a search on nochill, it will tell you everything you need to know.



And kudos for jumping from knk to all grain, you won't regret it.


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## nuggetron (12/6/12)

ok i have one of the new coopers fermenters without the airlock just that krausen collar or whatever its called that i assume moves up when pressure internally is high and release the CO2 

decided i will chuck a cube in the shopping cart
should get a huge discount for spending so much on their website haha

so once boiled for 60 mins i pour it straight into the cube
empty the air out, should be any doing a 30 L batch the cube holds 21-22L
shake the hell out of it
leave it over night
pour into the fermenter and into the fridge until temperature drops to yeast pitching temperature


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## jyo (12/6/12)

When you say "Pour straight into the cube" you mean "siphon gently using silicone hose", don't ya?! :icon_cheers: 

Gently lay the cube on its side once full and the lid is on to sanitise the handle and lid, mate.
Don't shake it until it is at yeast pitching temps and you are ready to introduce oxygen to the wort to help your yeast grow.

Have a read here, mate: NO CHILL


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## MaltyHops (12/6/12)

jyo said:


> When you say "Pour straight into the cube" you mean "siphon gently using silicone hose", don't ya?! :icon_cheers:
> ...


If I might add, the reason for this is under the NoChill method, the wort
will be hot (prob 80C to 95C) when you're transferring it into a cube so
pouring it straight in could be tricky. If you're using a pot without a tap
or ball valve, you may want to use a big funnel.

And the reason for a gentle transfer is to minimise splashing of the wort
and adding oxygen when the wort is hot to avoid something called hot side
aeration (though it is considered not a big issue in the homebrewing scale).

You do want to add as much oxygen to the wort as you can for yeast health
but do that when the wort has cooled to yeast pitching temperatures - and
is why :


nuggetron said:


> ...
> shake the hell out of it
> leave it over night
> ...


should be swapped around (probably pour 1/3 into fermenter before shaking
the remainder).

_Towel tip_ and other tips.


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## gap (12/6/12)

91.53% Caramalt
8.47% Pilsner

From your recipe, I assume this is a typo and really should be

91.53% Pilsner
8.47% Caramalt

regards

Graeme


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## Bribie G (12/6/12)

If you are going to pitch the yeast as soon as possible, then cooling in the fermenter is fairly safe.

However a cube has several advantages:


If you fill it with the hot wort and tip it from side to side so that all the surfaces are scalded by the wort then it's 99% sterile and you can keep it for months if necessary
Therefore it "decouples" the brew day from the pitching day which can be handy if you have run out of available fermenters or your yeast culture isn't firing up
With several cubes you can brew two or three batches in one day then sit back and ferment at your leisure.
(edit) also when tipping or draining the cube into the fermenter it's a great way of aerating the brew. Kit brewers often take aeration for granted as they use tap water which is nicely oxygenated to start off with, but in the case of AG you need to keep oxygenation in mind.


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## nuggetron (12/6/12)

gap said:


> 91.53% Caramalt
> 8.47% Pilsner
> 
> From your recipe, I assume this is a typo and really should be
> ...



cheers man thought the beer colour was slightly dark

as to the cube dilemma, i will go with the cube cause theres a high chance that it wont be fermented immediately so i will take the safely storage option for an extra 20


cheers boys


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## nuggetron (12/6/12)

in regards to crown urns
are there any temperatures that the values on the knobs resemble ie 1 = 20 degrees or whatever?
is there any value people use when getting to their strike temperature?


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## nuggetron (12/6/12)

oh and does anyone know if this silicon hose
http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=691
fits over the tap on the crown 40L urn


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## mikec (12/6/12)

nuggetron said:


> oh and does anyone know if this silicon hose
> http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=691
> fits over the tap on the crown 40L urn



Nah mate you would need the 9.5mm or 12mm ID hose (not sure which is closest to the urn tap though). With 12mm you can clamp it tight, with 9.5mm you can stretch it when it's warm.

Re your question a couple of pages back about the whole process, have a good read of these two threads, they will get you started on the process from go to wo.
AG for 30 bucks
20L stovetop (obviously if you have a 40L urn you don't need to dilute with water at the end, you can mash and boil the full batch in the urn)


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## Bribie G (12/6/12)

If doing full volume BIAB in an urn, you don't really ever need to touch the dial - just keep it on boil setting (95-105) and when heating water to strike temp just check it periodically. The switch off, dough in, wrap urn in sleeping bags, quilts whatever. Then you don't need to switch the urn on again till after the mash. And you are going for boil anyway, so leave dial well alone.

I think the idea of the dial is that when an urn is being used for tea (whatever that is)  and coffee at ladies bingo or glee club practice night- which is what urns are really made for, not brewing, they bring it to the boil and then crank it back a tad so it's at perfect serving temperature without actively boiling. I'd hazard a guess that too much twiddling with the dial might shorten the life of the unit long term.

Edit: check the sticky topic "BIAB in electric urn" in this subforum. Still fairly current although I should maybe GOMA and freshen it up a bit as it's a few years old now - you might find that helpful. Also I don't bother with hose, just run it in - never had any problems with hot side aeration in the brews I generally make.


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