# All In One Brewery...



## James Squire

Hello all,

Following the thread on Das Braumeister my tinkering mind has got to thinking... (Im sure I've seen this idea shot down before but cannot remember why...)

What would be the potential issues with a HLT/MLT/Kettle in one system?

Eg. 

50L S/S vessel
Elect heating elements
20L Grain Basket
Tap at bottom
Pump for recirculation
Sparge arm

Please tread lightly  and enlighten me on the issues with the following process... 

Preheat water to mash temps
Mash thin with the basket submerged in the 50L vessel 
Then raising the basket slightly above the wort level and recirculate wort with pump, rinsing with sparge arm
Begin boil
Immersion chill and dump into fermentor

Im sure there's holes in the plan being that the norm is to have the independant vessels, but the idea of only needing small amounts of room is attractive to me...

Please shoot the plan down nicely!  

JS

PS. Excuse the crappy diagram....


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## Lukes

James,
I won't shoot it down but I think you will still need 2 vessels.
(you can't mash and prep sparge water in the same vessel).​
Check out this system from our Euro friends (you will need to google translate)
space saver brewery




it's from the brewzilla web site what has some great pics of systems 

Hope it helps.

 
Luke​


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## Ash in Perth

it would be fine aside from a few small issues like these:

-It may be hard to get clear wort from simply pulling the basket out of the mash and rinsing the grain. Unless the pump is contantly pumping from the bottom to the grain bed. This would also keep the temp more constant and increase efficiency.

-Mashing thin my make it hard to make very malty beers, although there may be a way around this if it is designed well

-doesnt look quite as flashy as a 3 vessel SS setup


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## Boots

Scary as this may sound, i was actually thinking along the same lines recently.

I came up with:

- inner S/S mesh basket for the grain (something like termimesh or similar)
- outlet on the side with a dip tube going down to the bottom (so can be gas or electric)
- Heat strike water
- put grain basket in and add grain stir etc etc
- use the "no sparge method" i.e add all of the sparge water without dropping out the first runnings. Stir for a good 5 minutes and ricirc (leaving grain basket fully submerged)
- Lift out the grain basket (this was the problem i thought would be the real sticking point due to weight - you'd prob have to use a pully or something?)
- start the boil process

Problems:

- heating the extra water for the nosparge would mean you've still got a second vessel ... making the whole thing a waste of time !!! 

and that's when i forgot about it.

EDIT: although. with a direct fire vessel (as it would be) you could add the "nosparge" water and then just heat it all up to mash out maybe ....


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## Shunty

I cant see a reason why it wouldn't work, provided you are willing to accept low efficiency. 

You could mash at normal water:grain to avoid messing up enzyme activity, then dump in water to make up pre-boil volume, recirculate the wort, lift out the grain and start the boil.

An inline gas/electric water heater would help a lot - could even heat sparge water on the way in.


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## Vlad the Pale Aler

There is a brewer in Gidgegannup, WA who uses a system very similar to the one described here. He makes and sells fresh wort kits.
Recharge has used them, and maybe able to tell us more about the equipement used.
I have tasted the beer, not fantastic but not crap either.


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## PistolPatch

JS. I so like the way you are thinking.

As far as I can see, the question you are asking is, "Can I mash 5kg grain in 30 litres of water at around 65 degrees without detriment?"

If yes, then one vessel will be fine and you have made a brilliant breakthrough. Unfortunatley, I don't know the answer but am certainly hoping it is, 'Yes!'

Am hoping some people here do have a definitive answer. Whether yeah or nay, your thinking is very good.

Cheers
PP


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## James Squire

Ash in Perth said:


> ...It may be hard to get clear wort from simply pulling the basket out of the mash and rinsing the grain. Unless the pump is contantly pumping from the bottom to the grain bed. This would also keep the temp more constant and increase efficiency.
> 
> ...doesnt look quite as flashy as a 3 vessel SS setup



I was thinking along the lines of constant recirc of wort to keep the temp constant and also help with clarity.

Nah, it wont look as brew 'blingy' as a 3 vessel unfortunately but it would be a lot handier...

From what I can tell, the issues are with:

-clarity, cloudy initial runnings which will hopefully be combated by recirc of wort on top of grain bed all the time creating a good filter...

and

-as mentioned by PP, is there particular reasons why you can't mash in a high amount of liquor...

-efficiency...

Still yet to be completely blown out of the water on this...  :beer: 

Cheers to that!

JS

Edit: PS PistolPatch... Here's to hoping for a 'YES!'


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## mimerbryg

> Preheat water to mash temps


 OK



> Mash thin with the basket submerged in the 50L vessel


Use mash-schedule. E.g. 58C for 15 min, 68C for 60 min, 78C for 10 min (or whatever your recipe is)
Stir only at the beginning. When the malt is wet, start the pump



> Then raising the basket slightly above the wort level and recirculate wort with pump, rinsing with sparge arm


Raise the basket slowly and add 78C water until you reach the final quantity + the the amount of water that evaporate during boil. (We use 15 min for raise and sparging)



> Begin boil
> Immersion chill and dump into fermentor


This is OK

To keep the hops from going in the fermenter we have a bazookascreen in the bottom.
The worth is very clear as you can see





If interesseted I can upload some pictures showing the system disassembled

Kind regards
Flemming

PS
You could also visit this site http://humleland.dk/Opstillingafgrej.htm which show the system.
Follow the links in the left:
Mskning = mashing
Sparging = Spargin
Urtkogning = worthboil
Nedkling og grtilstning = cooling and add of yest


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## jimmysuperlative

mimerbryg, great posts ...and its looks like very good website.

...trouble is I can't find a "page translator" that does a good enough job at converting your site (from Danish?) to English :blink: 

Can you suggest a good language translator to use? I'd really enjoy reading more about your setup.  

Cheers ...and welcome to the forum


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## mimerbryg

jimmysuperlative said:


> mimerbryg, great posts ...and its looks like very good website.
> ...trouble is I can't find a "page translator" that does a good enough job at converting your site (from Danish?) to English :blink:
> Can you suggest a good language translator to use? I'd really enjoy reading more about your setup.
> 
> Cheers ...and welcome to the forum




Unfortunately it is not my site. If interessted I could ask the webmaster to translate it to english (or maybe collect my own photos and make a page myself B) 
The only page I know, claiming to translate online from danish is InterTran, and the translation is bad.
But the principles are as drawn by James above.


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## jimmysuperlative

mimerbryg said:


> Unfortunately it is not my site. If interessted I could ask the webmaster to translate it to english (or maybe collect my own photos and *make a page myself* B)



Yes, I think you should  :super:


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## James Squire

So I guess based on mimerbryg's experience this is a feasable idea then....

Thanks for the experienced input mimerbryg, your help is very much appreciated.

What are the detrimental effects on efficiency and beer quality using this method? Are there any?

If not then rock on with the mini home brewery! :beerbang: 

JS


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## James Squire

Further reading has led me to believe that mashing thin like this will take longer to complete the conversion process....

Perhaps also as Ash has said make a less malty beer too....

Are these two things true? Any other ill effects? As Ash has also eluded to is the maltiness issue somehow avoidable?

Regards,

JS


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## PistolPatch

This idea had me thinking all weekend and so I did a bit of research and PM'ed two experienced brewers. From all this, I think the idea is worth a try.

The first question to be answered is, "Why has there not been more of a response to this thread?" Two possible answers I can think of so far. The idea could be obviously stupid or no one really knows the answer. (In this particular situation a thing called cognitive dissonance also sets in which doesn't help much. Explaining this here will also probably not help much!!!)

From my enquiries, the idea is not obviously stupid. Two possible problems were posed to me (at least one mentioned above) but the sources were unsure as to the extent of these problems. Clarity and astringency were the major two unknown problems put forward. Clarity can be dealt with through other means so, unless anyone else knows that astringency will be a major prob, I'd love to give it a go. If it works, ther are major advantages for those aspiring to AG.

I've PM'ed JS with my naive willingness to possibly, 'take another one for the team,' and he's all for it although he's uncertain about me not having a pump! Here's what I propose...

*Recipe:* Will test the idea initially with Ross's Scwartzbier recipe but using US56 yeast. The worst you can get out of this is a very drinkable beer. Also I know what this beer should taste like and can always slip the end result to Ross and a few others that live up here to double-check the end result.

*Equipment:* I'm not going to use a pump or a container to hold the grain. Instead, I will use one of Ross's jumbo hopsocks (maybe 2) and my 70lt kettle though a 40-50 lt kettle would probably suffice.

*Process:* Want to adchieve a strike of 66 but using a volume of about 32 litres. (Will edit these figures later...) Am guessing here that with such a high initial volume, that the 32 litres of water should be heated to about 71 degrees.

Drop in hop-sock/s of grain and jiggle/stir? Making sure that the grain is loose enough in the hop-socks can only be guessed at until the day but I'm sure I can borrow enough hop-socks (maybe brewers as well!) to work this out on the day. Temperature maintainence can only be guessed at as well but hopefully we can get it right enough on the first go to make a second experiment unneccessary.

Mash for maybe longer than an hour and a half? (Should buy some litmus paper.) Jiggle hop-socks quite a bit at so far undetermined times to ensure sugars are rinsed into mash water. (Clarity will be atrocious but will skim etc. as much as possible and filter final beer.) Remove the bags and then raise to boil.

All else as normal.

*Any Thoughts?* Yet another long post sorry! (Thank Jye - just had to drink his 9.3% beer!) If the above is going to be a waste of time, then as JS said, the feedback would be really appreciated NOW, not later! If anyone has any ideas on how to improve the hastily devised process above without using a pump or secondary container, please throw your thoughts in. If any locals would like to assist with equip, expertise or supplying beer, well, that would be really good. Unless someone advises that the above is really stupid then I wouldn't mind having a bash at it on Sat or Sun.

Still hoping JS!

Cheers
PP


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## razz

PP, I'm not a local, but I can lend moral support. Go you good thing !


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## poppa joe

PP..
Dunno what keeps your hop sock spread open...To keep the grains spread..  
But spend 50cents at Vinnies for a plastic coleander..put it in bottom..  
I only spent 20 cents..small coleander..Smaller tun ..Haven't used it yet ..but looks like it is going to work to spread my sock.I also cut another coleander up (cut a hole in middle used it to keep top part of sock open)  
Hop sock==Grain sock..  

P.S. Barley Crusher may be available..
Cheers
PJ


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## PistolPatch

Good news on this!

Had yesterday off and was able to do a mini experiment. I had 1.3kg of crushed grain lying around in my fridge too old to be used for a proper brew. Using Ross's hopsock I mashed and boiled it. Here's the results.

*Procedure* 

1. Mashed 1.3kg of grain in 7.8 litres of water pre-heated to 71 degrees. Struck at 64 so immediately raised to 66 through force of habit.

2. Mixed up grain in hop sock vigorously quite often during first 20 minutes and then every 15 minutes thereafter. Did this as grain was tight in the bag. Refractometer readings were 1041 at 55 minutes. 1044 at 80 min. 1047 at 100 min. As a matter of interest and because the grain was so tight I kept the mash going.... 1049 at 120 min and 1049 at 150 min. (Unfortunately, some of the earlier readings will be inaccurate as I probably didn't cool the wort for long enough in the refractometer.)

3. Mashed out 5.25 litres at 1049 which gives efficiency into boiler of 70%. I'm not too sure how this figure translates to, "Efficiency into Fermenter." Hopefully there's not much change???

4. Boiled for an hour just to see how much scum formed and how much trub was left.

*Comments*

Clarity: No worries at all. Hardly any scum. As for trub, I'm guessing that it was actually far less than from a normal mash. The hop sock is 250 micron mesh (0.25mm) so when you think about it, not much is going to get through.

Efficiency: No worries, I think (see 3 above)???

Weird how the grain retained 2.5lts of water and this was after squeezing the bag. Am hoping the grain was measured accurately at the shop. Couldn't be too far off though.

*Problems/Solutions*

The grain was quite tight in the hop sock hence the reason why I actively stirred it up so often and extended the mash time out to 2.5 hours. Also temp in the middle of grain was always about 2-3 degrees lower than the surrounding water. Ross's jumbo hopsock will not make a difference either as the diameter of the jumbo is the same as the small hopsock. To solve these problems and to get back more to Jame's orioginal idea, I'm hoping Ross can source me a wider diameter bag. By fixing the above, the mash time problem should be solved as well.

Poppa: I think a grain bag will release too much husk into the brew and therefore tannins in the boil. Like your colander idea but watch what sort of plastic it is, i.e. toxicity. Ross's hopsock has a nylon ring to hold it open. You can see a pic here
Clarit

James: I know the hopsock is a little off your original idea but certainly the same principles apply. My thinking is that the hopsock material is going to save a lot of problems, work, money and cleaning. And you need no pump which is a huge expense. Cool! The container with holes and/or mesh also worries me a little as I'm guessing that it would be time-consuming but, really, I have no experience to base that comment on.

*Finally* 

It looks as though it will be up to us newer AG'ers to experiment with this one. After talking with some more experienced brewers, they can't see anything wrong with the principles. Because they are already set up though, there is no real advantage for them to experiment with this method. The main criticism was the amount of unknowns in the idea. The above experiment seems to have got rid of some of the main ones.

The reason I'm so into this idea is two-fold. If this works, I can actually throw kettle, sock, burner and bottle into my van and brew while I work. How cool is that?

Secondly, if brewing in my small apartment, this is going to save a lot of space, set-up time and active time etc., required for a brew.

I also think that this would be a brilliant way for those wanting to give AG a bash as it's very simple and very inexpensive. Not saying it would work for all beers but at this stage can't see why not.

Hopefullly Ross can source me a wide diameter sock and I'll be able to do a full scale test run soon. If the first experiment works OK, I'll follow it up with a double brew day. One brew with this method and another identical brew using traditional equipment.

Once again excuse the long post. Seems to be that I write the same length posts whether sober or not - lol!

Thanks again James for raising the topic.

Cheers
Pat


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## James Squire

All sounds good Pat,

Possibly with 2.5Hr mash in small volume of water you may have lost a bit more not only to the absorbtion but perhaps to evaporation also.... Not too sure.

Sounds too good though mate. Mashing ratio of 6L water per Kg grist should indicate whether there are any flaws in the plan, coversion seems good although as expected mashing thin took a couple of hours to get there... 

Its great to have someone else so enthusiastic about this because as you say, for the new brewer looking to move to AG, this is a great option to explore. Cheap and not too space consuming, gives you the practice with the process and helps you to understand it all, also can be a modular step up to a full system because whatever is used as the vessel for this system can always be used as a boiler or HLT if you expand to a three vessel system.

Cheers for now, keep up the good work Pat,

JS


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## apd

I'm about to set up something similar. I've taken my inspiration from here:

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backi...schmidling.html


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## PistolPatch

Yep James not too sure where that water went to. Had lid on for most of the time but there was a fair whack of condensation floating around???

I don't think mashing thin was the problem. I think it was more that the grain was very condensed in the sock and therefore was very hard to rinse. A large sock should solve the problem.

APD: Hopefully we'll get this working in the next fortnight. That way you'll need no buckets and won't have to scoop all the grain out of your kettle! :beerbang: Another advantage is that only one volume of water has to be prepared so sparge calcualtions are not required. Not that this is hard but it's just one less thing to worry about.

Will post back here once the sock size problem is solved.


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## Trough Lolly

PistolPatch said:


> JS. I so like the way you are thinking.
> 
> As far as I can see, the question you are asking is, "Can I mash 5kg grain in 30 litres of water at around 65 degrees without detriment?"
> 
> If yes, then one vessel will be fine and you have made a brilliant breakthrough. Unfortunatley, I don't know the answer but am certainly hoping it is, 'Yes!'
> 
> Am hoping some people here do have a definitive answer. Whether yeah or nay, your thinking is very good.
> 
> Cheers
> PP



Interesting thread...
There's a few momilies floating around the brewing world and one of the olden goldies is no-sparge brewing...
YES, you can mash 5kg grain in 30L at 65C and get a damn fine beer. In fact the general consensus is that you end up with superior malty flavour profile when you skip the sparge step, but it's also agreed that you suffer in extraction efficiency. But that is a highly debatable and somewhat complex topic that I won't go into at this stage, simply because I don't know all the ins and outs of that debate!
Instead, I can refer you to an interesting article by Jim Hilbing on no-sparge brewing that you might want to have a look at: click here...

The late Dr. George Fix is normally credited with kicking off this concept, back in a seemingly innocent post on the US HBD.org website in 1992. For convenience, I've quoted it here...


> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 92 08:14:25 CDT
> From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
> Subject: Yummy Malt Flavor
> I somehow missed Joseph Hall's original post concerning beers with a
> very high malt profile. The following was sent to him via private e-mail,
> but it bounced.
> Clearly the malt types used is a matter of the utmost practical import.
> However, I have found that to get a very high malt flavor the sparge
> must be omitted as well. This is an expensive way to brew since the amount
> of grains needed must be increased by a factor ~4/3. Nevertheless, some of
> the world's great ales and lagers have been brewed this way, and I have
> found it works in homebrewing as well for special beers. Clearly this is
> not the way to brew our standard beers.
> The following is offered as an illustration. You clearly may want to modify
> things to suit your environment. The control batch is more or less my standard
> procedure, and the experimental batch is the no sparge version. A three step
> infusion (135F, 152F, and 162F) was used for both along with a 1 1/2 hr. boil.
> Hopping is according to your preferences, but I have found for these beers more
> is better than less.
> CONTROL BATCH
> Brew Size = 50 liters (13.3 gals.)
> Grain Bill = 11.5 kg. pale malt (25.3 lbs.), 1 kg. crytal (1 kg.)
> Mash Water = 32 liters (8.5 gals.)
> Sparge Water = 32 liters (8.5 gals.)
> Vol. at the Start of Boil = 56 liters (14.8 gals.)
> Starting Gravity = 1.060 (15 deg. Plato)
> EXPERIMENTAL BATCH
> Brew Size = 50 liters (13.3 gals.)
> Grain Bill = 16.5 kg. pale malt (33.75 lbs.), 1.25 kg. crystal (3 lbs.)
> Mash Water = 44 liters (11.5 gals.)
> Water Directly Added to Kettle = 20 liters (5 gals.)
> Vol. at the Start of Boil = 56 liters (14.8 gals.)
> Starting Gravity = 1.060 (15 deg. Plato)
> Note that the mash thickness is just about the same in both batches. In the
> experimental batch the extra water not used in the mash is directly added to
> the kettle.
> Note: If you have the extra vessles, sparge, boil, and then pasteurize the
> dilute wort that normally be left in the grains in the experimental batch.
> I have found it useful for yeast storage and yeast propagation.
> George Fix


Cheers,
TL


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## James Squire

Thankyou very much for your response TL,

This makes me very happy to hear... The small downside of 20% more grain per brew is nothing compared to the positives (not space consuming, smaller setup cost, less time) for my personal situation. Especially if it makes just as good beer that way! 

Cheers mate, im currently piecing together equipment to give it a proper run in the coming months...

JS


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## AndrewQLD

As always TL, you have come up with the goods, some nice links there. 

After reading this thread my first thought was "no-sparge brewing", easy enough to do away with the HLT but you would still need a boiler, so the system can easily by reduced to 2 vessels. I am going to combine my HLT and mash tun for my next brew and see what the results are comparing the same recipe no-sparge against my normal method.
mashing in with 36 lt of water would require a large vessel and even a 50lt one would be pushing it if you are brewing a high gravity beer.
I can see some benefits to no sparge brewing, time saving being one, but that would depend on how long conversion takes.
Sorry if my post has gone off thread a little, but it might be interesting to see if a no sparge beer is acceptable Taste-wise ect before trying to design a single vessel brewery.

Cheers
Andrew


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## James Squire

Hey there Andrew,

Thats not moving off thread mate, its all worth discussing as it seems that everybody has different ideas of how these things can work. Make sure you let us know here how your next experimental brew goes.

I guess the point im working on tho is that if you can do it in two you can do it in one... (well, effectively two if you count a basket as another vessel!) You are going to set up using a mash tun and a boiler right? Well if you could mash in your boiler and remove the grain before boiling then you could do it in one vessel! Picture the old bucket in bucket system then you're close to what I have planned, sort of! 

Boil water to temp in boiler, dump grain basket into boiler with grain inside, mash, raise basket above wort level and re-circulate wort through grain (mini sticky sparge!), remove grain basket, then boil as normal.

Thanks again TL, I think this is definately looking good enough to experiment with. Whats the worst thing that can happen.... if it doesn't work then I've still purchased myself a new boiler and only need a HLT and to modify my esky! Worth a go I reckon!

JS


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## PistolPatch

[Another long post but I think for those following this thread and who are thinking of having a bash at AG then detail is probably best. Will try and lay it out neatly so it's easy to read. If you are interested in James' idea, which I think is great, it's probably easier to copy this post to Word so you can read it quickly on a full screen. Long posts are sometimes very annoying to read but I can tell you, they are _always_ very embarrassing to write!]

*Trough's Post* 

As AndrewQld said, once again Trough, you have come up with the goods. Not sure how you retain all the info you do but it's certainly a great asset for other AHB'ers. In this case, it's also very encouraging.

Dr George Fix's post you quoted above, I fully understood. The only question I have on this is why did the good doctor add the 20lt to the kettle instead of putting it into the mash?

I think what James is trying to do (and I would like to do) is add all water required into the mash. In the Doc's example, James and I would have added the entire 64 lts to the mash rather than 44. I can't see the extra 20 litres being a problem. The doc was basically doing a double batch so if people are mashing a single brew, size of the vessel will not be a problem unless as Andrew pointed out the beer is really big.

The link was a little harder to for me to understand as I think, once again, the, 'Dilute Mash," method meant not adding the entire volume required at the beginning of the mash.

All in all though, from what I can see, there doesn't seem to be any huge disadvantage to mashing with the total mash and sparge water required, i.e. extremely thin. Is there a name for the proposed single addition method that James is proposing? There probably is but let's call it SAM for now until either someone can correct the name or James comes up with his own! Also, for the sake of discussion and to match Andrew's proposed experiment, let's assume we're going to mash 5kg in 36litres.

*Single Vessel Brewing* 

AndrewQLD, as James said, you are certainly not off-topic and from the PM's James and I have exchanged, I know he would be as thrilled as me seeing you and Trough contribute. Helps a hell of a lot.

Firstly where James says, or I have said, 'single vessel,' we are bullsh*tting slightly but what we are saying is that all you need is a kettle - _no_ esky (mash tun) and _no_ HLT.

*S.A.M. Using 3 Bits of Equipment* 

James' idea involves only 3 things - *a 'strainer' (suspended in the kettle), a kettle and a pump.* Post #25 above summarises this method. His idea has the advantage of the strainer mesh size not being so critical as the wort will be re-circulated until clear.

There are only 2 probs I can see with James' method. Firstly, it involves a pump (expensive) and secondly, I'm guessing it would take considerable time for the wort to run clear. (Sorry James, just thought of a third problem. By the time the wort runs clear, the brew may well be extracting tannins - I'm not too sure if I'm right on this and hopefully a more experienced brewer can set us right.)

I don't think James is too attached to buying a pump and so thankfully he is also interested to see how my variation below works out.


*S.A.M. Using 2 Bits of Equipment* 

James' method triggered another idea which involves only *a kettle and a, 'mash sock.' * This is exactly the same as James' ideas except, instead of using a pump and the grain bed to clear the wort, the container that holds the grain is actually made of the 250 micron mesh as used in Ross's hopsock. This extremely fine mesh and gravity replaces the recirculating pump. Post #18 outlines this method.

*Summary - 2 Upcoming Experiments*

Well James, I know you've provoked a bit of a following on this thread amongst people in the same boat as you who are in the process of saving up for or collecting equipment for their first AG. Hopefully, your thread is going to be a big breakthrough for them and also for others like me who have limited space and concentration levels  Looks like....

....AndrewQLD is going to be the first to test the the SAM method for you by adding 36lts of water to his esky, mashing for probably the normal amount of time and then draining the sweet liquor produced into his kettle. Andrew's experiment will answer a lot of questions and by the look of things, the answers will hopefully be fairly positive.

I've asked Ross for some help in designing a mash sock to handle 5-6kg of grain and with a little luck we'll come up with a stitched up bit of something to follow through on Andrew's test. (What happens in this design process is I send Ross a 3 page email containing about 150 ideas and he writes back one line saying, 'Pat, why don't you just do the third thing you suggested?' I then go, 'Oh yeah, right.' LOL!) Anyway, this test should answer any clarity issues and if successful, nullify the need for a pump.

Finally, I did have a few questions I would have liked to ask here but this has been way too long already.

Thanks again James,
PP


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## AndrewQLD

I will be brewing my Bosuns Best bitter on Sunday PP, and will be using my 50lt S/S mash tun as a combined hlt and mash tun. I will post the recipe and efficencies after the brew with comparisons to previous batches brewed using my normal 3 vessel method.

Cheers
Andrew


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## PistolPatch

Once again Andrew, thanks for taking such an interest in this. When James comes on line next he's going to be absolutely wrapped and will hardly be able to contain himself until Sunday.

As for me though, being far cooler, I may, if I have the time, casually check in to AHB to see how you went.

LOL. I am absolutely hanging to hear how it goes! Fingers crossed...

Pat


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## James Squire

Pat and Andrew,

Struggling to contain myself guys! Love the fact that this thread is building in interest. I hope that this can help some inexperienced brewers gain some priceless information and even perhaps help some convert cheaply to AG.

Good luck for the Bitter on sunday Andrew, can't wait to hear the results!

As always Pat, cheers for the support! Oh and cheerio to Ross for his help with Pat's experiments...

I finished off my Peltier Controlled Fermenting Cupboard last night in great success so the next step is to focus on this project. New stainless kettle on its way this week, I'll keep everyone informed!

Cheers and better beers,

JS


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## wobbly

Interesting Thread Here is my two cents worth.

Going back to the basic principal first posted by James and commented on by Minerbryg

If you use a "bucket" fully suspended in an electric urn is the water to grain ratio really 5 or 6 to 1? Maybe it is only around 3 to 3.5 to 1

Example 

I have a 30lt electric urn 350mm dia which equates to approx 1lt per cm of depth.

The Urn element is on the bottom and to cover the element accounts for about 2.5 to 3 cm or 2.5 to 3 lt.

If I insert a bucket fermenter with a dia of 250mm (with a mesh screen bottom) into the urn "to clear" the elementand add 25lt of water the vols are dispersed as follows (approx)

- 3lt under the bucket covering the element
-16lt in the bucket
-6lt between the bucket and the urn walls

With 5kg of grain in the bucket isn't the ratio 16lt/5kg = 3.2 to 1?

Seeing that the mash liquor temperature is only in the mid to high 60's C why couldn't you use a basic "Bunnings" water feature pump for the recirculation pump and thereby elliminating a high cost item of a high temperature pump

Opertion could be.

With the pump running drawing off from under the "bucket" the water in the annulus between the bucket and urn walls could well be static and only serve as a thermal mass around the bucket. In an ideal world it could have an SG at the top of the annulus of 1000 gradeing to Mash SG near the bottom.

To provide a cheap screen in the bottom of the bucket drill a number (say 20+) 9mm holes in the bottom of the bucket and place a piece of fibre galss fly screen mesh in the bottom of the bucket held in place by a simple tight fitting metal ring/hoop similar to the "bucket in a bucket" systems described on other threads.

Mash as per Minerbryg schedule and then raise bucket above urn liquid level and add make up water (assume 7 lt) to the top of the mash (fly sparg?) and let drain through into the urn. You could even continue to run the pump if that helped.

An alternative could be to up the grain bill and opt for a "no sparge" method targetting a higher SG which could then be adjusted by adding top up water to the boil.

Your comments would be appreciated

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## James Squire

G'day Wobbly,

We're obviously on similar wavelengths here mate, I described the bucket in bucket style, hole drilled, mesh covered bucket plan to PistolPatch in a PM a few days ago! 

I also was thinking along the lines of using a cheaper pump, not neccessarily a water feature pump but was thinking along the lines of a washing machine/dishwasher pump. Not 100% sure but im guessing they'd have a continuous temp rating of somewhere in the high 50c to 60c. With some experiments this might prove to be a viable option...

Just to touch on your water/grain ratios. I believe (could be wrong) that if done properly the static water issue can be avoided and in doing so then the ratio's would be calculated based on the total water used. Meaning that going by your example it would be 25L water to 5Kg grain; therefore 5:1.

I will be getting my new 40L urn this week and possibly immersion heater by next weekend also, I have already a washing machine pump ready to trial. When ready to experiment I'll nick down to grab myself a 20L food grade bucket and use some of the stainless mesh I have lying around to make a nice 'basket style' bottom for it. Once I've sorted out these bits and pieces then I'll give the plan a crack! Thats if the missus gives me time out from home reno's to afford the build time. 

Im not sure if this covers all of your post as im into some Boddingtons tonight and can't really remember your actual q's but regardless of that at least you have an idea of the specifics for what I have in mind.

Cheers for now,

JS


----------



## AndrewQLD

I started the brew this morning at 7.15am, My mash tun had 39 lt of water pre heated to 72c as calculated by beersmith to give me a mash temp of 66c. Grains were tipped in and sirr


----------



## AndrewQLD

I started the brew this morning at 7.15am, My mash tun had 39 lt of water ( 7L/1k) pre heated to 72c as calculated by beersmith to give me a mash temp of 66c. 



Grains were tipped in and stirred for a few minutes until well dispersed and the mash temp settled at 66c without need for further adjustments  


I normally mash for 60 minutes but after reading PPs post regarding the efficiency rising after the 60 minute mark I decided to set the timer to 90 min and I shall take a refrac reading at 60 min and onwards.
I will post more results as the morning progresses.

Edit: I believe I could possibly fit another 2 kilos of malt into the tun before reaching the top, so it looks like 7.5 kilos would be the limit in my 50lt vessel.
Cheers 
Andrew


----------



## PistolPatch

Didn' realese we'd be lucky enough to get pics as well - looks good enough to eat. Nice score on the strike temp as well.

I don't think I let my wort cool enough the other day during my initial refractometer readings. Noticed it went up a few points when I let it cool for about a minute.

Hopefully seeing your grain is so loose, there won't be too much of a diff in the readings after 60 minutes - hope so! Can't wait to hear what you come up with.


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Interesting shape cut out.. ? I'm sure you have a valid reason for this . 

As someone looking to try AG later in the year this is a very interesting topic.. I'll be following it closely... Off to local show now but will be on my mind thats for sure.. 

Good luck with it ...and thanks for taking up the chalange, you to Pat Your all doing great things for us that are slow on the uptake to AG. 

:beer:


----------



## bigfridge

FNQ Bunyip said:


> Interesting shape cut out.. ? I'm sure you have a valid reason for this .
> 
> As someone looking to try AG later in the year this is a very interesting topic.. I'll be following it closely... Off to local show now but will be on my mind thats for sure..
> 
> Good luck with it ...and thanks for taking up the chalange, you to Pat Your all doing great things for us that are slow on the uptake to AG.
> 
> :beer:



On other mashtuns I have seen the weird shape allows teh false botton to slip in.


----------



## bigfridge

AndrewQLD said:


> I started the brew this morning at 7.15am, My mash tun had 39 lt of water ( 7L/1k) pre heated to 72c as calculated by beersmith to give me a mash temp of 66c. ...
> 
> I believe I could possibly fit another 2 kilos of malt into the tun before reaching the top, so it looks like 7.5 kilos would be the limit in my 50lt vessel.
> Cheers
> Andrew



I just looked back at my records and my 50 litre tun is full to the brim with 40 litres water and 13 kg grain.

HTH
David


----------



## wobbly

James

I don't see the "static" water as an issue

I guess what I was trying to put was that because the water in the annulus could/would be static perhaps you shouldn't consider it as part of the mash ratio calculation so then your grian to water ratio inside the bucket would be lower than first thought and more towards the "traditional" mash range.

i.e. your mash would be the "thin porridge" allowing the enzimes all the "warm fuzzies" people talk about that they need/thrive on.

Cheers 

Wobbly


----------



## AndrewQLD

60 minutes into the mash and a refrac reading gives me 1.030, 5 points under expected, 30 minutes later the reading was 1.033, only a loss of 2 points from my expected eff. into the boiler. To be honest that is better efficiency than I thought I would get, so obviously the extra 30 minutes mash time helped a lot.

I recirculated the wort for about 10 minutes and then pumped to the boiler, Volume was spot on 33lt and the SG read 1.033 so an efficiency of 68.6% into the boiler, normally I would get 70% but a drop of 1.4% is not worth worrying about. Starting the 90 minute boil now so all should be as normal from here on in.

This method is very simple, heat all your water, dump in the grains, stir, leave for 90 minutes, Recirculate and pump to boiler.

Tiny efficiency drop, but it's so close to being on the money it's not worth worrying about.
Temp in the mash tun stayed fairly constant with only a 1 degree drop over the 90 minutes probably due to the fact the tun was so full.
I seemed to spend less time hanging around the brewery waiting for the batch sparges to complete ect.

I didn't raise the mash temp for mash out but my burner was turned on straight away and the wort was boiling within 10 minutes of the mash tun being empty. My slight eff drop could have been caused by not raising the temp to mash out.

This method did not really save any time on the day due to the extra 30 minutes mashing.

I will let everyone know how the beer tastes in about 3 weeks when it is kegged. I will be interested to see if the maltiness or mouthfeel are effected by this method.

So to sum it all up mashing with all of your brew water did not really effect my efficiency or clarity of the wort into the boiler, it's simple and easy to do, and I think I saved electricity by not having to raise the sparge temps as I do when I batch sparge.

I will leave it up to you fellas to work out the hard part :blink: , doing it all in one vessel :lol: .

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## PistolPatch

Well, there you go James!

Brilliant summary Andrew. Looks like I'll be able to brew while I work!

One question: Did you give another stir during the mash or would this make no difference?

Once again, thanks a heap for trying this out.

:beerbang: Pat


----------



## AndrewQLD

Sorry I missed that PP  , I stirred at the 30 min and 60 minute mark. I didn't stir at the 90 min end just recirculated for 10 minutes.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## PistolPatch

Thanks Andrew. Your experiment has me impatient to try a brew using no esky or pump, just the kettle and, 'mash sock.' Ross reckons I can get away with curtain material so will order some grain and should be able to do a brew on Wednesday. Thanks to you I'll probably hit the strike temp first up!

A lot of possible disadvantages to mashing thin have already been refuted thanks to Andrew so I thought it might be interesting to write down a few of the advantages. These might quickly tempt FNQ into having a bash at AG - lol. I'm sort of focussed off the original method which involved a pump so I hope James doesn't mind me continuing my possible hijack by just writing down the advantages of the sock method.

The advantages I've written down are not necessarily in order of importance. If anyone has any others they can see it would be great to hear them. Many of the below will not seem very important to experienced brewers but when they cast their mind back they'll certainly remember that a few things that seem so simple now such as building a mash tun, can be quite daunting when you're starting out.

*Some Advantages of the Kettle and Mash Sock Method* 

1. Little Equipment Required: Only extras needed for those doing K&K are a kettle, a mash sock, thermometer and heat source. (Have not included chiller due to other methods of cooling being available.)
2. Excellent Temperature Control: Temperature of the mash is easily controlled by turning on and off heat source - something difficult to do with an esky. This means maintaining mash temp., multi-rest mashing and raising temp. for mash out are all easy to acheive. Temperature is also more stable due to larger volume.
3. Simple Quick Cleaning: Empty mash sock. Rinse and wash in washing machine. No cleaning of syphon and other vessel to vessel hoses and fittings.
4. Space-saving: Storage space approximately one-third of 3 vessel brewing. Working space whilst brewing is similiarly reduced.
5. Ergonomic: Brewing operations can be at at waist level.
6. Less 'Active' Time Required: Whilst the mash may still go for 90 minutes, during that 90 minutes all that is required is the occassional stir and temperature check/maintenance. No fly sparging or heating up water to correct temp for first and second sparges.
7. Kettle Size is Large Enough: From bigfridge's post above, we can see that a 50 lt kettle will handle a mash of quite big beers.
8. Simple Quick Set-Up: Self-explanatory.
9. One Volume and Temperature Calculation: Big advantage for new AG'ers.
10. Low Knowledge & Concentration Levels Required: The above method can be done without a lot of prior reading etc. The simplicity of the method also means the mash requires far less concentration. In your first few brews, heating different volumes of water to various temperatures that are ready on time can be spectacularly easy to stuff up. This should be simple but I know many are initially caught out on this and it stresses them out.

Better go now and write a PM to James apologising for all my long posts to his thread.

 PP

P.S. Wobbly, sorry I can't help with any of your questions but my knowledge is a bit limited when it comes to pumps, re-circulation etc.


----------



## vlbaby

I say good on you PP. Give it a go and let us know if it all works ok. A lot of things in brewing can be technically a no go, such as the "no chill method". I think there are plenty of people here that can confirm great results from this method, myself included. 
You may be able to show that mashing thin in a sock (or curtain  ) is another great untapped method.
Whats the worst that can happen really? A just Ok quality brew? It will still be better than most mega swills!

Good luck with whatever you try mate, you've got to try what you think. :beerbang: 


cheers

vl.


----------



## AndrewQLD

Love your write up PP, there are advantages and disadvantages, I will see how the 2 vessel no sparge method goes when the brew is in the keg and I am drinking it before I form any conclusions. But to be honest, I read this thread, thought that sounds interesting and had a go at one of the problems involved, it was a bit of fun on brewday and I look forward to the results.

good on you all for having a go and thinking beyond the norm.

Cheers 
Andrew


----------



## razz

Evening Andrew, out of interest what was your final volume into the fermenter ?


----------



## AndrewQLD

23 lt into the fermenter Razz, boil off was as expected and no boil overs were experienced even with the 6lt evap/hr + I get.
The main interest for me was the effect on efficiency, mashing in with all the water, and if this has effected the end product in the way of mouth feel, dryness ect. I have no plans to change my brewing setup to a one or even two vessel system because I AM already setup, and don't need to change. But this experiment might help non all grainers who are looking to go further, and give them another way to experiment and see if they want to expand into the AG method.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## PostModern

Interesting thread. I've been watching this thread for a while and have an idea, please flame it down if it's absurd, I don't have any particular attachment to it...

Why not mash at a "normal" rate, say 3:1 or 3.5:1 and just add more water at the end of the mash? That said, I'd like to hear the flavour results of Andrew's brew.


----------



## AndrewQLD

PostModern said:


> Interesting thread. I've been watching this thread for a while and have an idea, please flame it down if it's absurd, I don't have any particular attachment to it...
> 
> Why not mash at a "normal" rate, say 3:1 or 3.5:1 and just add more water at the end of the mash? That said, I'd like to hear the flavour results of Andrew's brew.



Well, that's what I thought too PoMO, after all that's what a no-sparge method is, but these guys are trying to work a system using only one vessel. So I thought, lets first see if you can brew a reasonable beer by mashing in with all the liquor first, with predictable results, and then they can design a single brew vessel if it seems feasable. Love the inventiveness of brewers.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## PistolPatch

Cheers Vl & Andrew. I've been wondering where the hell James Squire is?

What a great weekend! Found out that one of the closest relations you can get is in remission from a seriously bad disease (probably very bad taste posting the news here sorry but I've been celebrating) and AndrewQLD has proved that mashing thin is OK - doesn't get much better than this!

PostModern: Long time, no see - lol! Your question is very valid. You are asking, 'Why Not Do This?' but this thread goes even further and asks, 'Why Even Bother Doing That?

The answer to your question is that it will cost you severely in grain bill to mash in low volume and then dump the sparge water direct into the ketle.

AndrewQLD today showed that mashing thin is OK by dropping 36 litres of water into his 5-6kg of grain contained in the mash tun. It made no difference in efficiency.

From his experiment I can only see one problem and this problem only relates to those who have already invested in an esky as you cannot raise temp to mash out unless you have an immersion element. If you are mashing in your boil vessel all other problems seem very easily solved.

Cheers,
Pat

Hope I'm still making sense Post,

All the best,
PP


----------



## AndrewQLD

pass on my congrats PP, a remission is a gift from God and a celebration toast is definately in order CHEERS.

Andrew


----------



## PistolPatch

Well Andrew, I can definitely say that he would not have made it without the pioneering spirit that you and James Squire obviously have. PM of appreciation coming your way soon.

Many thanks,
Pat

P.S. This bloke who scored his remission to a disease where there is never a remission would be very cranky with us brewers if we get off topic. He's a great bloke and I'm pretty dumbstruck by his effort. He's been a great pioneer in his field so I suppose we should get back to the serious work of exploring Single Vessel Brewing!!!!

Off now to review some beers from the QLD Swap - one very scary one!

Cheers to Andrew!
PP


----------



## James Squire

Geez, offline for one day and look at all the action I've missed!

Andrew, mate you are a legend for having a crack at answering the underlying question for us all! The simple fact that someone who is already fully set up is willing to tone down their brewing processes to give others some options with their own brewing is a credit to the community here at AHB. 

Looks like all went well as hoped, my fingers are crossed for the quality of the resulting beer! Good luck to you!

I think, though the tasting results are not in yet that the idea holds enough merit to give it a go myself. The setup phase begins this week and with a bit of luck will be getting a run within the fortnight. As it is at the moment, I am only a partial mash brewer and don't currently have the capacity to boil large amounts so I've headed out and tracked down a nice 40L urn to commission as my new HLT/MLT/Kettle! I've also kept a close eye on the 'fixed or immersion element' thread on here and look like picking up an immersion element to work along with the urn and increase my boiling ability. Once I have these and I knock together my mesh bottomed bucket then I reckon Im good to go on my maiden All Grain run!

Gotta fly now, but thanks everyone for all the interest and efforts.

Cheers,

JS

PS. Pat, sent you a PM, quit your stressing mate! Im still here and really happy to have your input. Cheers.


----------



## Trough Lolly

PistolPatch said:


> Dr George Fix's post you quoted above, I fully understood. The only question I have on this is why did the good doctor add the 20lt to the kettle instead of putting it into the mash?



Hi Pat,
The question goes to the core of a lot of sparge v no-sparge debates that have endured to this day. Let me put it this way - you need to consider the maltiness of a beer and the gravity of the beer as two separate concepts. Once you've done that, the method becomes that and not madness! 
I could go on about this topic, but this probably isn't the place, but let me quote a post from respected US brewer Louis Bonham, who provided some insight into this topic, back in Homebrew Digest #2284, in 1996...


> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 07:52:19 -0600
> From: Louis Bonham
> Subject: No sparge brewing / AOB
> 
> John Wilkinson has some Q's about no sparge brewing:
> 
> > 1) How much water should be in the mash tun before starting the runoff? I use a 10 gal. Igloo cylindrical for a mash/lauter tun and generally mash with about 16-17# of grain and water to about the 6 gal. mark. When I mash out the level will be between ~8 to 10 gallons. Obviously, the amount of water in the tun would affect the amount of runoff collected and the maltiness if the no sparge technique means anything. What would be recommended?
> 
> I think you're missing the point. Gravity does not equal maltiness. No sparge brewing yields a maltier *tasting* beer. To answer your question, just use the same amount of foundation water as you usually do.
> 
> > 2) Without sparging I would assume that the runoff would be higher gravity. Given that, would the runoff be diluted with water to the desired gravity? If that is the case, why would diluting with sparged runoff dilute the maltiness more than diluting with plain water? Would a better solution be to use less grain and not dilute the runoff with water? In this case it would appear to me that doing this to achieve lower OG would mean using a higher water to grain ration. Why is this different from sparging?
> 
> Again, you're confusing gravity with maltiness. They're not the same. By using a no sparge technique, you get a higher quality wort -- not just a higher gravity runoff. Stated another way, let's assume you and I each generate 5 gallons of 14P wort, but you sparge and I don't. Obviously, I have to use more grain and dilute the runoff to have the same pre-boil gravity as you do. If we used the same materials, fermented them with the same yeast and under similar conditions, etc., we'll come out with beers that are about the same FG. Do they taste the same? My experience (and I've done probably 15 twelve gallon batches with this technique) mirrors Jeff's and Dr. Fix's -- the no sparge beer tastes maltier.
> 
> Jeff is absolutely right when he encourages everyone to try this technique -- it makes for a shorter, easier brew cycle, and it produces noticeably better beer. Downside is increased cost, but with grain at $0.75/lb, you're talking about less than $3 more for an average sized batch. Not much to pay.
> [snip]
> Louis K. Bonham lkbonham at i-link.net


There is a common "defence" of sparge brewing in that it's quite possible to obtain delightfully malty beers with a sparge brewing method - and I agree with that point. We make them all the time - but that isn't the key point that George was trying to make. He simply demonstrated how to make a good flavoursome beer with a larger mash volume, no sparge and extra malt to make up for the extraction efficiency losses. Rather than extracting tannins from the grainbed, he added water to the kettle to achieve a pre-boil volume without ringing the bejesus out of the grains and adding harsh tannins to the kettle and the final product. Result? An excellent malty beer that didn't need a sparge. 
I'd venture to suggest that the gravity was a secondary consideration...You can get buy without having to go through the sparge process which in turn is worth something to the time poor, equipment challenged brewer as well!

Hope this helps...but the debate goes on!
Cheers,
TL


----------



## PistolPatch

Thanks Trough not only for the reply but for the fact it's even longer than my standard post - lol.

That's a perfect explanation you've given and has certainly cleared up any final questions I had on this. A lot better answer than the one I tried to give PoMo last night whilst slightly disabled!

Thanks again Trough,
Pat

P.S. Ordered grain today for the next experiment here. Hopefully it will arrive Wed morning but will have to brew in the arvo/evening, Grrrr. My 76 year old neighbour is sewing up a mash bag to completely line my kettle. (Haven't discussed how she wants to be paid. OMG! I hope she's thinking cash.  )


----------



## poppa joe

I have a 16lt..pre boil electric urn ..which i insulated today..Grain sock..thanks to SHMBO..Stainless
chip basket instead of plastic coleander..(PP)  
Gonna have a go at Mini type thingy...
PJ


----------



## James Squire

Im loving this! 

Every couple of days there's another person wanting to give it a crack! Now im itching to get a go at it myself! 

Good luck PJ, hope it all goes well. Make sure to post results and/or any questions! All the best.

Cheers to getting more AG'ers going and cheers to always learning new ways,

JS


----------



## PistolPatch

EDIT: Note this post originally only shoed refractometer readings in Brix - have converted readings this morning and put them in parentheses.

*Ross's Schwarzbier Using Kettle and Mash Sock* 

Grain arrived - thanks MHB. (MHB has followed this thread and cracked the grain a little coarser than normal would to suit this experiment). Had to work longer than expected today so couldn't begin until 5pm - grrrr. Would have written a more detailed and entertaining story here for the newer Ag'er's but 3 neighbours invited themselves over before I could even start. If this experiment works and the beer tastes good, will tidy up the following notes and put them as a new topic for those wanting to have a crack. Have been taking pics but they will be poor quality and I'll have to post them later when I get rid of the neighbours.

So far, very easy method and here's a copy of my notes...

5:00PM: Setup kettle, gas and burner.
5:05PM: Start filling kettle and apply full heat with 3 ring burner. Filled kettle to 33 litres. Attached mash sock.
5:45PM: 72 degrees reached. Poured grain in and struck at 68 (2 above the desired of 66). Lid off.
5:52PM: Stir. Dropped to 66. Lid on.
6:02PM: Stirred & strill at 66? Lid on.
6:18PM: Stirred. 65 so heated on outer ring whilst continuing to stir.
6:25PM: 66 reached. Lid on.
6:43PM: Stirred. 63.5 so heatyed with inner ring.
6:54PM: 66. Refractometer reading of 1012.6 [1052]
7:02PM: Stir and refrac reading of 1013. [1053]
7:15PM: Final stir and refrac reading of 1013. [1053] Temp = 64. Apply full heat whilst stirring.

Let sit for 30 mins to see if any diff in refrac reading and ditch neighbours.
Result: No difference apart from now no neighbours - cool!

7:45PM: Raise temp to mash out of 80, stirring whilst doing so. Give up on stirring after 5 mins and look at ways to raise mash bag to prevent tannin problem. Raise bag over 10 minute period: (Needs a little more thought here to make things easier).
8:03Pm-8:13PM: Reached 80 degrees. Pulling grain bag out. (further notes later)
8:20PM?: Boil begins: 26lt at 1014. [1057] (Have grain bag draining in another vessel so might add this later.)
8:25PM: Add 90 grams of some sort of hops - label has gone astray but pretty sure I got the right bag.

*So Far:* Despite the above notes (mainly written for my benefit), this is very easy so far. Get rid of neighbours, photos and taking notes for AHB then it's actually a breeze.

Back later...

P.S. I think after my long day, the no-chill method is looking very good - lol! Belucky if you get any pics tonight also!


----------



## PistolPatch

9:00PM: Added 1.25 litres to the boil that I had draining into a spare pot. This was done with a a fairlyquick squeeze after holding the mash bag up for about 30 secs. Refrac reading of these, 'runnings, was, interestingly enough 1013*. More interesting to me is that it was still very clear.

1013 Brix = 1053


----------



## smashed jaffa

Great stuff PP.

I have loved watching this thread evolve and the ideas coming left right and centre. :super: 

For someone who is new to AG (4 batches under my belt myself), I have been trying to work out how to get a maltier beer. 

I first read about this method in How to brew (JP) and have been intrigued by it, but have gone down the sparge path coz... thats' the done thing I guess! :blink: 

I have a 10 gallon Gatorade Mash Tun with a false bottom. I have calculated I have 2 litres deadspace under the tap in MT and counting for 1:1 water/grain absorbtion. 

My question is if I do a no sparge method, would I then just simply add enough water at mash in, above and beyond the deadspace and grain absorbtion, to the boil volume I require or, do mash out with an addition of water etc....?

Sorry if this has been said already and I hope I am not hijacking thread. :huh: 

I am planning on doing a Vienna Lager this weekend and really want to get a good malt flavour coming through.

Anyone...?

Cheers,

SJ


----------



## PistolPatch

Smashed Jaffa: Glad to see someone's there! I've just made a major f-up on hops - Pat takes yet another one for the team! Will do my last incorrect addition shortly, put the lid on this bastard (actually has been very good if you use the correct hops) and then I'll answer your question. Spewing - everything else was perfect!


----------



## poppa joe

PP..
Correct me if i am wrong..BUT..Sqeezing the bag is a....no..no..Anyone..?????
PJ


----------



## hockadays

I have read the same thing and I thinks it's from Palmer due to tannin's.
Have not experienced it so I guess PP will be able to let us know in due course..

hockman


----------



## PistolPatch

OK, as my work day started at 3am (not planned) and finished 6hrs later than expected, I'm going no chill. At least no one can say that I'm not a dedicated AHB'er - I kept my word and did the brew as promised! (I aslo ordered 2 lots of crushed grain which means I'll have to brew again when I get home tomorrow - spewing!)

Tonight would have been extremely simple without the myriad of distractions I had. Some have been mentioned - phone calls and the untimeliness of neighbours leaving have not. I am obviously quite angry at myself for using the wrong hops, Saaz versus Hallertau, but hope that AHB'ers will realise the mistake was made through an eagerness to get the results of this experiment posted asap rather than basic caveman stupidity. I did have a pre-written schedule which involved weighing out hops way before I even mashed in. Yeah, well that all went to you know where.

Also very new to my Robinox 70lt - evaporation from these is mind-blowing. Not a problem - just need to shorten the boil. Sitting in the kettle, no-chill cooling now is, 18.4lts at 1024* refrac. (Hopefully someone else will analyse all the above figures whilst I'm at work.)

Smashed Jaffa: Here's your answer (see my P.S. also)...

*If you want a maltier brew, use more grain and sparge less.*

Your question follows on from earlier questions so don't be worried when I say that it is off-topic - your question actually deserves a new thread.

James' idea is (now I know) not no-sparge brewing. Trough Lolly posted some excellent material on getting a maltier beer which is a hugely valuable read for all brewers. The things described in his links allude to no- sparge brewing.

This thread, and I have a slight advantage as I have conversed with James, has nothing to do with maltiness.

The real question in this thread is, 'Can I brew a good beer with only one solid vessel?' The answer seems to be, 'Yes, you can!'

A discussion of maltiness of a beer should be in a separate thread and only be read and absorbed by brewers way beyond the level of my expertise or those new to or contemplating AG!

Smashed: I hope the above is of some help. Believe it or not, many experienced brewers have been thrown by this thread. Mashing 5-6kg grain immediately in 33 litres of grain seems to have thrown everyone and I'm still unsure why?

The experienced brewers I talk to are very interested in the results here though. I'm just hopiong they can analyze the refractometer readings I've given above as I'm prety tired now!!!

Have to go but hope I was of some help....
PP

EDIT: Just did a fresh reading this morning with both refractometer and hydrometer: Result 1017 Brix [confirmed with hydrometer reading of 1070]. Throwing into fermenter now and will top up with water. Will take a last reading once this is done.


----------



## Ross

what was the actual refrac reading Pat? not the converted figure.

cheers Ross

P.S. You're a brave man starting at 5pm - good work


----------



## PistolPatch

Just popped back on before I collapse to answer both Ross's question and Poppa Joe's. Can't see Poppa's anymore!

Rossco: What a great recipe to try this out on! As for refracto readings - all have been given in Brix or whatever a refractometer reads in! Hope you can analyze my readings above because I'm bloody tired and can't see myself both brewing a light Shwartz tomorrrow AND posting here!

Poppa: Your question re squeezing the grain bag - totally valid. Me squeezing the grain bag would have not only exposed my wort to HSA but may also have added tannin. Like the question of maltiness, I think that both these things are only things to worry about and play around with for very experienced brewers. You and I will still get a beer that's 97% right by following absolute basics.

Spot ya ron,
Pat


----------



## browndog

> Smashed: I hope the above is of some help. Believe it or not, many experienced brewers have been thrown by this thread. Mashing 5-6kg grain immediately in 33 litres of grain seems to have thrown everyone and I'm still unsure why?


Well Pat, the problem could be by the SG readings you were giving. When you read your refractometer, you are reading in %Brix. So I am assuming that your 1.013 and your 1.024 are 13% and 24%Brix, to convert these to SG points multiply by 4 so that makes 1.042 and 1.096. According to Beersmith your post boil gravity going off your starting SG and evaporation rate should end up around 1.066 so I don't know what is going on there Pat, better lay off the beers while you are brewing hey (or are some of those pesky neighbours of the fairer sex  )

cheers

Browndog


----------



## PistolPatch

Sorry Browndog and others for posting in Brix. Have gone through and added conversions. (I used 4.1 instead of 4 as I'm sure someone told me that was more accurate???) The 1024 Brix [1096 gravity] reading was probably dodgy as I just took another one then with refrac and got 1018 Brix pretty much confirmed by a hydrometer reading of 1070. (Just discovered this hydrometer is dodgy. Will use different one for next reading).

Have just syphoned into fermenter and scored 16 litres. Topped up with 7 litres to make 23 litres. Hydrometer reading using non-dodgy hydrometer is 1065 confirmed with refractometer reading of 1016.

So, FINAL reading is *23 litres at 1065.*
Time: Taking away the extra half hour I mashed for which proved unneccessary, *total time from equipment set-up to flame off was 4hrs 20 minutes.* This included a 1.5 hour boil.

This is good.

Will not have time to post pics unti lthis evening but I'm very surprised at the lack of trub and also the clarity of the wort - it's the best I have had.

Only downside to this experiment was the brewer. (Please excuse the poor quality of my posts last night but I was pretty buggered and in poor humour before I even started brewing and of course I had one or two during the brew!)

[Yeast is not proofing and this is after 1.5 packets. Will try and buy another packet today and hope for the best - grrrr]

Going to pitch now and then have to go and do some real work.

 PP


----------



## James Squire

Keep up that enthusiasm Pat,

I love your work mate... the results will come (with time) in the tasting of some of these trial brews! Thought I'd jump in here to answer Smashed Jaffa's fine question. Get ready for a PistolPatch length post guys!!!

SJ, 

As PistolPatch has eluded to, the method here is more of a 'no-sparge-full-volume method' as opposed to the standard 'no sparge' method used by others. Based on the large amount of reading/research I have been doing into both these methods I can probably explain both the why's and why not's of your question...

Ok, now the number one problem with 'no sparge' brewing is the low efficiency achieved due to leaving the grain un-rinsed if you will. ***Just to clarify this point, the 'no sparge' method involves mashing with normal water:grist ratios and then adding a charge of hot water at the end of the mash to make up to target volume.*** Rough estimates from brewers more experienced than I are that efficiencies using the plain 'no-sparge' method will be around 60-65%. This low efficiency can be countered by an increase in grain bill, this is difficult to work out how much more but a good place to start is to increase the grain bill by 25%. Now, this style of brewing is promoted and championed by some for it's simplicity and more importantly for the added benefits of supposedly a maltier beer! The popular belief is that it gives the malty feel due to not sparging the run off down to low gravity and extracting tannins and other bad stuff into the wort. I believe sparging exists for the reason that commercially it is not as economically viable to up the grain bill when by sparging you can achieve the correct gravity and volume simply by sacrificing the (very) slight maltier feel of the final product. However on a small scale as with homebrewing, it's not neccessary for economics to get in the way of high quality beers.

Now the above mentioned method of mashing with a 'no sparge' runoff and then adding required hot water to boil is used by many to great success and I do not see a problem with the method aside from the increase in grain (which results in needing more room in mash tun!). 

However my idea that prompted this thread is to do everything in one vessel which negates the possibility to heat the 'top up' water required in the 'no sparge'. So now the trials are starting on actually mashing with very thin water:grist ratio's to test this theory. ***I do still feel though that by using this method, more grain will be required (I will test this when I can)*** Good luck to all that are giving it a go!

So to answer your question in short SJ, you can do either! It's up to the brewer as to how they brew, perhaps give one a go then next time try the other! Both options I would expect will give you great results! 

All the best people and sorry for the long post, oh and remember that if you have the time for two brews... experiment by using the remaining sugars in the grain to mash again and create a second 'smaller' beer!

JS

Note: The above references to 'no-sparge' brewing producing a maltier beer of high quality are based on the writings of brewing experts who have trialled the process. I am yet to brew using either 'no-sparge' methods and therefore cannot say yay or nay.


----------



## smashed jaffa

PP,

Love your committment. It is great to get people trying new things and therefore bringing knowledge to this forum. Thanks for your comments.  

JS,

Thanks for the informative post. I am curious as to the difference in either method as I can see it;

1) the "no- sparge method", which requires normal water/grain ratio and a charge of hot water to mash out, (I assume an increase in water temperature for the mash out addition). 

2) 'no-sparge- full boil volume" adding the right amount of water for the full boil at mash in temp, (as stated in my previous post; boil volume plus MT deadspace and grain soakage).

I am keen to try the 'no-sparge- full boil volume' method as I think this might be a shortcut in ascertaining the total amount of water needed for my equipment, (which I have been having trouble getting an accurate estimation.)

If this is the case (2 confirmed?), I will try the 'no-sparge- full boil volume' method this weekend with my planned Vienna Lager brew.

Thanks for everyone's comments. :beer: 

Cheers,

SJ


----------



## James Squire

SJ,

You are correct with your number 2 method description. Using this method on the weekend would interest me greatly and a post of how you go here would be great! 

The reason behind the 'no sparge' using the mash-out instead of mashing in full volume is to improve extraction efficiencies. As PP has shown, it takes longer to convert in a thin mash. Using normal water:grain ratio's will convert quicker and more efficiently. If using the 'no-sparge-full-volume' method then don't forget to up your grain bill. Perhaps setting your software to 60% efficiency will get you close to the mark.

Make sure to keep us informed...

JS


----------



## lou

Hey PP

how much grain did you use? - ie what was the actual recipe?

What does your efficiency work out as?

lou


----------



## PistolPatch

Going to try and redeem myself now after my very confusing posts of last night. Ross has just explained that refractometer readings don't have the 10 in front - no wonder browndog was confused. Ross also answered my tannin questions - cheers mate! Will answer these and other questions below.

*The Process* 

This was actually a very easy way to brew and would also be a very relaxing way if done at a reasonable hour and without interruption. (Please excuse pic quality).

Step 1 - Set Up Equipment. (5mins)




Step 2 - Fill Kettle with 33 Litres of Water and Apply Full Heat.



Step 3 - Raise Temperature to 72 Degrees for Mash In. (40 Mins)



Step 4 - Pour 6KG Grain Into Kettle. Stir and Check Strike Temperature Equals 66.

Will comment on Ross's Schwartzbier recipe and grains later. Agitated grain and stabilised temp at 66 within a few minutes. 



Step 5 - Mash (90 Mins)

Maintained the temp with two applications of heat during the following hour and a half utilising these times to stir the mash as well.



Step 6 - Raise Mash Temperature to 80 Degrees (20 Mins)

This step may be 5 minutes or so faster when I do it again. I was worried about the grain at the base of the kettle getting too hot but apparently I was worrying about nothing. Last night though, I just hiked the bag up which was a bit of a job requiring teeth etc. Finally got it raised.



Step 7 - Remove Mash Bag

This step was also a little difficult. Holding 12 kgs up at an awkward angle is a pain but with a little thought, this problem could be fixed. I ended up dumping the whole bag into a _second_ vessel. In other words I broke the rules. I let bag self drain for about 15 minutes and then gave it a quick squeeze. From this I gained another 1.5 lts.



Step 8 - Bring to Boil (20 Mins?)

Was interrupted again at this stage which lead to the major error of using the incorrect hops. Wort actually tastes very good so fingers crossed.

All other steps are as normal so will not write them here. One final picture though of the trub left after syphoning from the kettle into the fermenter.



*Efficiency - Excellent Results.*

Lou and James: No extra grain was used and a 90 minute sparge was fine. Extra mash time gained nothing. Ended up with 23 litres with an Original Gravity of 1065 which is 9 points higher than Ross's Recipe predicts. It is also far higher than I have acheived previously brewing this recipe. Prior figures were 1054, 1050 and 1052. Using *this method raised efficiency from my usual 68% to 81%.*

*Recipe - Ross's Schwartzbier*

3.37kg (56%) Munich Malt (9.0SRM)
1.93kg (32%) Pilsner Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (1.6SRM)
0.24kg (4%) Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (381SRM)
0.24kg (4%) Dark Crystal (Joe White) (110SRM)
0.12kg (2%) Carafa (337 SRM)
0.12kg (2%) Roasted Barley (Joe White) (710SRM)
38g Hallertau (5.3%) (80 minutes) 23.2 IBU
20g Hallertau (5.3%) (20 minutes) 7.0 IBU
20g Hallertau (5.3%) (2 minutes) 1.0 IBU
1 tsp Yeast Nutrient (10 minutes)
1 tsp table salt (90 minutes)
1 pkt Czech Pilsner Lager (Wyeast Labs #2278

I chose this beer as I have brewed it very successfully before (probably because Ross helped) actually using US-56 instead of a lager yeast. I thought that this is quite an easy brew for beginners as it allows those who can't maintain lager fermentation temps to still brew a beautiful lager. It is also a very forgiving brew. Last night involved extremely poor brewing practices by me but I'm still confident that this beer will be good.

Hope this post makes up for my poor posts of last night. Why I even posted last night I'll never know.

By the way, thanks to Smashed Jaffa, Ross, James for the kind and toally undeserved comments. My spirits would have been even further reduced without your comments.

*A Great Way to Brew - So Far*

I think I'm going to really enjoy my second bash at this on Saturday. I'm extremely impressed with the results so far and will filter and keg this batch in 10 days to see how it goes.* Only good part of last night was my good-looking female neighbour (not the 76 year old) also dropped in for a few beers - yum! Going to lock my doors on Saturdaymorning though to keep these 2 out...



Cheers
Pat

*Have had some yeast troubles lately and so picked up another pack and pitched it as well. Another stuck ferment would not make me happy!


----------



## James Squire

Thanks for the feedback Pat,

You've done well mate. Don't stress on the wrong hops... Saaz should still make this a grouse drinker!

Congrats on the effeciency achievements! Thats awesome! Im glad its all gonna pay off for ya! Not bad this whole 'taking one for the team' stuff!!!

Cheers mate,

JS


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Great going PP !!!

I'm just about inspired enough to have a crack at it myself ...

Can you give us a few details on the "grain sock" construction ...what's it made out it etc

Keep up the top work :beer:


----------



## James Squire

Jimmysuperlative,

If this thing keeps taking off then perhaps Craftbrewer will release the 'No-Sparge Grain-Sock'!!! h34r: :lol: 

Seriously though, I believe from what PP has told me it is just your standard mesh curtain material... Pat can confirm but I believe the run of the mill curtain stuff from your Spotlight type store. He then had someone sew it all up for him... I think in the fashion of a pillow case with a draw string...

Again though, PP will drop in and tell you for sure. 

Cheers,

JS


----------



## poppa joe

I have a 16lt urn..insulated..Grain sock..etc..I made last week..Ready to try this method ..for small batches
as trial to bigger ones..Went to lhbs NO GRAIN ...AAAARRRGGGHHHH
Came home ,may as well bottle 1st small 12lt batch i did (old way which is new to me ..anyway) AAAARRRRGGGHHHH Infected...
Down the sink...AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH
Not a happy Jan...(orPJ)
But nothing daunts an OLD brewer..so back to the drawing board..
So my first was a failure and cant get grain till next week maybe .? to stuff my next one up...
PJ


PS> PP A friend has a Barley Crusher if you are interested .

.


----------



## PistolPatch

jimmysuperlative said:


> Can you give us a few details on the "grain sock" construction ...what's it made out it etc



Thanks for your comments Jimmy. Yep, material is 100% Swiss Voile Ivory from Spotlight. Also bought nylon thread and drawstring (Gutterman Poly Thread) from there. Cost of under $15 with a lot of material left over.

The sock lines the entire kettle. What I might do is add another drawstring, maybe even 2, further down the sock so as I can let it drain gradually without having to hold on to it.

I reckon give it a go Jimmy. It's easy, cheap and I certainly still can't see any problems in brewing great beer with this method.

Cheers mate.

Poppa, just saw your post - will PM you right now!


----------



## poppa joe

My sock is made out of the stuff that goes over Irrigation pipes..Cut and sewn by a little old lady 10 yrs
younger than PP's neighbour (My SHMBO )  I got a roll of it for $1.00 at G Sale
PJ


----------



## jimmysuperlative

just got this link from the NB forum ...

Nimbus system

...looks similar to the one that initially got this thread started.




Wish I spoke Danish ???? :huh: 


PP and PJ, looks like I'm headed to spotlight ...unless, as James Squire suggested, _"Craftbrewer will release the 'No-Sparge Grain-Sock'!!!"_  

Ross?


----------



## poppa joe

Jimmy ..
I used what i had..(Still have not tried yet)
But got some PICKLE buckets from Maccas last week and looking into ways of using one.Instead of the 
sock...Looks like with a bit of mod.it will fit and work out O.K.(My system) for 12 lt Brew.Approx.
Got a bigger system lurking in the background waiting for trials...of the first one..
Stuffed my first one(Brew that is... got an infection)..Now on to the second...
PJ


----------



## jimmysuperlative

PJ it will be the same for me ...just came by 3 stainless kettles, and am looking to modify them for brewing. I was set to go for a three vessel system, but after these recent developments it could be easier to put all the work into a single kettle all-in-one system ...the initial result look good!


----------



## Trough Lolly

James Squire said:


> Keep up that enthusiasm Pat,
> 
> I love your work mate... the results will come (with time) in the tasting of some of these trial brews! Thought I'd jump in here to answer Smashed Jaffa's fine question. Get ready for a PistolPatch length post guys!!!
> 
> SJ,
> 
> As PistolPatch has eluded to, the method here is more of a 'no-sparge-full-volume method' as opposed to the standard 'no sparge' method used by others. Based on the large amount of reading/research I have been doing into both these methods I can probably explain both the why's and why not's of your question...
> 
> Ok, now the number one problem with 'no sparge' brewing is the low efficiency achieved due to leaving the grain un-rinsed if you will. ***Just to clarify this point, the 'no sparge' method involves mashing with normal water:grist ratios and then adding a charge of hot water at the end of the mash to make up to target volume.*** Rough estimates from brewers more experienced than I are that efficiencies using the plain 'no-sparge' method will be around 60-65%. This low efficiency can be countered by an increase in grain bill, this is difficult to work out how much more but a good place to start is to increase the grain bill by 25%.


I'd suggest you up the grainbill around 33% to get a more accurate compensatory effect - but anyway, it's only a starting point - you may not suffer as bad a drop in efficiency as PP demonstrated. 



James Squire said:


> ...I believe sparging exists for the reason that commercially it is not as economically viable to up the grain bill when by sparging you can achieve the correct gravity and volume simply by sacrificing the (very) slight maltier feel of the final product. However on a small scale as with homebrewing, it's not neccessary for economics to get in the way of high quality beers.


Quite so - larger scale breweries with economies of scale that we do not have to worry about will resort to sparging instead of upping the grainbill.



James Squire said:


> Now the above mentioned method of mashing with a 'no sparge' runoff and then adding required hot water to boil is used by many to great success and I do not see a problem with the method aside from the increase in grain (which results in needing more room in mash tun!).


Yes, and there's nothing new with the use of first runnings - perhaps you might want to have a search around for Partigyle brewing for some more related background info on it. For a handy primer on partigyle brewing...click here for Randy Mosher's article on it.



James Squire said:


> ...The reason behind the 'no sparge' using the mash-out instead of mashing in full volume is to improve extraction efficiencies. As PP has shown, it takes longer to convert in a thin mash. Using normal water:grain ratio's will convert quicker and more efficiently. If using the 'no-sparge-full-volume' method then don't forget to up your grain bill. Perhaps setting your software to 60% efficiency will get you close to the mark.


Whilst PP has done a great job with his brew, and documenting the results (don't sweat the hop mixup it'll come out fine anyway!!) I think it may be a tad premature to assume that a "normal" mash will be a better outcome than a relatively thinner mash that uses a "full volume" infusion of mash water. To me, the jury's still out on whether a "thinner" mash will be a less efficient outcome. Mash efficiency is factored by a number of variables that will improve overall efficiency, such as changing the mash pH, adding minerals and salts, changing the gap on your grain mill etc etc...even stirring regularly to give the enzymes their best chance at all of the unconverted starches in the mashtun, hell, there are some thoughts on mashtun geometry that may affect efficiency, so there's still some work to be done before it can be assumed that one method is better than another, _ceteris paribus_...
And there's one other question that may be worth considering.....What is THE normal water to grain ratio anyway??? We assume it's a standard ratio that is commonly used in infusion mashing that involves a sparge step. If so, then we're borrowing a mash ratio from one method and applying it to another brewing technique. Sure, it's as good as any for a starting point, but basic brewing doesn't get overly dependant on the grist to water ratio since it all gets sorted out during the sparge anyway? So perhaps we need to think a bit more on what is the "normal" grist to water ratio in terms of no-sparge brewing?
And finally, if you are a ProMash user, you might want to read the article on "no-sparge" brewing on the ProMash website that helps you set up your recipes to cater for this brewing technique....click here.
Cheers,
TL


----------



## James Squire

Thanks again for the feedback TL,

Im really impressed with the amount of input you have to give! 

I hadn't thought of the "NORMAL" water:grist ratio being what it is due to it suiting the sparge style brewing... perhaps you are correct and that this is not neccessarily the 'ideal' ratio... Trials will tell....

Off to read some Randy Mosher now....

JS


----------



## PistolPatch

I think I have fallen in love with brewing in the bag and I haven't tasted the final results yet (sounds like marriage.) I'll be a bit dark if the beer's no good because this method makes a lovely brew day for an amateur like myself.

Yesterday I brewed for my own interests and my own enjoyment. A major thing I wanted to do was work out the correct evaporation rate for my kettle. I also wanted to push this whole mashing thin to the absolute limit without really worrying about how crazy everyone would think I am - LOL

*Yesterday's Brew* 

Same recipe as Wednesday (Ross's Schwartz) but only used 4kg of grain. Here's one interesting bit esp. for Trough!) I mashed at the ridiculous water to grain ratio of *12.62 litres/kg*. So 4 kg was mashed with 45.6 litres of water. The only reason anyone would need to approach such levels is if they were losing over 10 litres per hour to evaporation so it's a pretty outrageous ratio.

This acheived an *efficiency into the fermenter of 80.7%* which is in line with the 81.3% I scored on Wednesday so efficiency is DEFINITELY NOT a problem.

Had to do a 2.5 hour boil to get down to a correct volume though I overshot this mark by a few litres and ended up with a final volume of 21.2 lts @ a gravity of 1.042 which is the equivalent of about 23 litres @ 1.039.

*Mash Conversion* 

To keep myself amused, I took gravity readings quite often throughout the mash. For those interested, they were...

30 minutes = 1.020 50 minutes = 1.021 60 minutes = 1.022

70 minutes = 1.023 80 minutes = 1.023 90 minutes = 1.024

Pulled the bag out at 80 degrees but from what I've been told I could have pulled it straight out at 66 or left it in until boiling if I'd wanted to with no ill-effects. Took another reading at 80 degrees after pulling bag out. No change to the 90 minute reading.

So, from these figures there doesn't seem to be an issue with conversion times at all. I think the above figures would be similiar to any normal mash. Trough would know.

*Brewing Mistakes*

Did this one sober so not too many mistakes - lol. Even remebered to put in thw whirfloc and yeast nutrient! 

1. Strike temperature was at 68 which was 2 above what I wanted. Didn't hit 66 until the 10 minute mark by which stage half of the conversion had taken place.

2. Added too much heat half way through mash but that wouldn't matter too much and I cooled it quickly using 2 freezer blocks in Ross's hop sock.

3. By the time I syphoned from the kettle the neighbours had arrived. Got distracted and syphoned pretty much everything into the fermenter so lots of trub in there. Whoops!

3. Did some naughty things with the yeast which I'm not going to mention here but am pretty sure no nasties crept in. Brew is very well under way and am now dropping the temp to 16 degres as I'm using US56 instead of the correct lager yeast.

*Testing the Results* 

I'll filter, keg and force carbonate the first brew I did probably on Friday. This means no secondary and no cold-conditioing. My brew practices on this one were very poor so I'm not expecting anything great. The second brew, I'll try and cold condition for 5 days and keg without filtering to see how the clarity worked out (especially with all that trub!) There's a lunch on Aug 12 in Brisbane where there will be enough experienced brewers to taste the results and see if all is OK.

Cheers
PP

P.S. Trough: Another really interesting read from you. Thanks as always.


----------



## smashed jaffa

The Results are in! (well sort of)

I conducted my "no sparge - full boil volume" Vienna Lager experiment this afternoon, and I can honestly say that this was my easiest brew yet.  

I'm not sure if it's because I am getting more familiar with my procedures or the ""no sparge - full boil volume" is a winner. I think a bit of both, certainly the clearest wort I have produced.

I apologise for the length of this post in advance. (still not as big as some of the other posts I have read, not naming any names .....PP oops.  

I do 15 litre batches (kettle size limitations, BigW 19 litre pot!), then usually add 3 litres of cooled boiled water into the fermenter.

I am trying to get my measurments and water usage with my equipment correct, hence the full volume experiment. I thought by dumping all of the water needed into my mash tun, including 2 litres for Mash Tun deadspace, and 1 L/Kg grain absorption, I would be able fine tune my volumes needed.

Recipe Specifications
Vienna Lager
--------------------------
Batch Size: 15.00 L 
Boil Size: 16.62 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 22.3 EBC
Estimated IBU: 22.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
1.50 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 37.5 % 
1.50 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 37.5 % 
0.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 12.5 % 
0.25 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 6.3 % 
0.25 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 6.3 % 
25.00 gm Tettnang [3.90%] (60 min) Hops  14.0 IBU 
20.00 gm Tettnang [3.90%] (30 min) Hops 8.6 IBU 
1 Pkgs Bavarian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2206) Yeast-Lager 


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 4.00 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash in Add 22.00 L of water at 71.1 C 67.0 C 60 min 

I set my efficiency at 60% as suggested by somebody earlier, and conducted a 90 min mash and stirred every half hour. I took a hydrometer reading on hour mark which was 1.052 (temp adjusted on beersmith), not far off my target of 1.052, (although as I add water into the fermenter anyways, no probs). Had 1.052 at the end of the mash too and actually ended up with a 62.2% efficiency into the boiler.  

1 hour boil - everything as planned, lost just over 3 litres to boil ended up with just under 12 litres left, will probably lose another litre to trub even tho I use one of Ross' excellent hop socks. B) 

If there is no real difference in quality/efficency by using this method, then I think it will definately help newbie AGers like myself come to grips with what at first seems like alot of complex information and setup costs, taking the plunge and producing fine beer from grain. If it is just a matter of spending another $1 or $2 on grain for each batch, to produce a maltier beer, and simplify your procedure in the process, then I think I will be exploring this method more in the future. I also intend to do this same recipe with the "no sparge Mash out" method, (partigyle - thhnkyou TL), I described in an earlier post next time to guage the difference if any. Will post my results once conducted.

here are some pics....

22 litres into Mash tun




Mashing away.



The Boil, (love that hopsock, held up by Luigi the spaghetti twurler!)



BTW.. This brew is chilling out on the concrete floor of my back shed, no chiller style(should get down to 7-8C tonight), til the morning when I will pitch the 2206 on her.


SJ


----------



## recharge

Vlad the Pale Aler said:


> There is a brewer in Gidgegannup, WA who uses a system very similar to the one described here. He makes and sells fresh wort kits.
> Recharge has used them, and maybe able to tell us more about the equipement used.
> I have tasted the beer, not fantastic but not crap either.


Just seeing this thread for the first time.
But the guy in Gidge still uses a hlt then mashes in a pot with holes placed inside his kettle then slowly lifts the mash tun out with pullys as he is sparging. Still three pots anyway you look at them.

Sorry for delayed viewing and reply.

Richard


----------



## poppa joe

Smashed Jaffa..
Looks similiar to what i am getting together...16lt pre boil..approx.12lt..finished .
Done one already...
Lost it to Infection but..
Gonna do another when grains arrive..(hard to get down here..)
Pj


----------



## smashed jaffa

poppa joe said:


> Smashed Jaffa..
> Looks similiar to what i am getting together...16lt pre boil..approx.12lt..finished .
> Done one already...
> Lost it to Infection but..
> Gonna do another when grains arrive..(hard to get down here..)
> Pj



Poppa,

It's not a bad way to start as I have a $20, 19litre SS pot from BIGW and boil up on SWMBO's stove. No burner etc. I also use the no chill method so my setup costs have been minimal to date (excepting I spent what I saved on no chill and burner on the MT and SS urn!)  

I have setup Beersmith to add approx 3 litres of water to fermenter after the boil, so my grain bill is calulated from a higher OG anyways.

I also believe by doing a smaller AG mash I can experiment more and try different brew styles without having to drink 23 litres every time!  

Cheers,

SJ

P.S sorry about the slightly OT.


----------



## PistolPatch

Good on you Smashed for having a crack!

I think your efficiency is a lot better than you think. I had a few reads of your post but couldn't find volume into kettle. I would imagine you would have ended up with 18 litres at 1.052 pre-boil but this assumes no dead space in your esky. This gives 79% efficiency into the boiler with my rough calcs.

Would love to know how many litres went into your fermenter and at what gravity. (Also how much loss to trub). This way the correct efficiency can be determined. You'll get way above 60 for sure.

It'll be interesting when Jimmy and Poppa have a crack at it (good on 'em!) but without the esky - kettle and bag only. The bag eliminates any dead space problem and, as far as I can see, the method should yield pretty much identical efficiencies for all those using it.

Jimmy might want to wait until the first taste test this weekend but so far, the worts are tasting great. Looks like Poppa will have to give it a go as his grain is on the way - excellent!

If you do try the bag, just lift it out at the end of the mash - don't raise the mash to 80. The bag is easier to handle then and I've been informed there is no point raising to 80. Just lift straight up and twist it so the sweet liquor squeezes out. Forget tannins. Also, don't worry about HSA but then again I wouldn't go swinging the bag around my head! Have a bucket or large saucepan beside the kettle ready to dump the bag into.

If you want to get that bit of extra liquor out, let it sit in a bucket or large saucepan for ten minutes or so. Remove the bag and pour the gained liquor into your kettle. With such a nice efficeincy, doing this is probably not even worth it.

Safety: Don't try and drag the bag over the side of the kettle - you'll drag the kettle off the burner and get liquor everywhere.

To Clean the Bag: I left mine in the laundry sink overnight. By this stage I could lift it and there were no drips. Dump grain wherever (don't feed your goat with it because it will die as some of you will already know!), turn inside out, rinse under shower or tap and throw in washing machine.

This post is probably longer than Jaffa's now so I'll press, 'Submit.' LOL

Cheers
PP

Sort of Off-Topic: Just one more thing for those trying this method with small pots. Instead of no chill, if you have time, you should be able to cool your kettle in the laundry sink. If I was doing it this way, I'd leave a stirrer in the boil for the last 15 minutes. Sterilise the lid of the kettle with some no-rinse steriliser and put that almost on for the last few minutes. At flame off, put the lid on as much as you can with the stirrer poking out. Then cover all this with a nappy or towell you have washed with napisan. Put in laundry sink and run the water so a little escapes through the plug hole - not much. Give it a little agitation every 5 or so minutes and your wort should be cool enough to pitch in no time.


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## poppa joe

Instead of grain bag..I have cut down a small food grade bucket..(Removable handle + a stainless drip tray to sit across boiler for draining) thanks to the big "M" near me.
Have a small 3/8 IM Chiller...Thanks to local G>Sale..$2.00.....
I do have 46lt plastic boiler waiting for trials...2400 w.element..(Maybe two) +Small immersion element .
Waiting for grains to give it another go..
PJ


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## jimmysuperlative

Going a similar way to PJ ...

Will use a 20L "handy pail" with a screened/mesh bottom (haven't worked out how yet) that will be suspended inside a 15gal pot.

Don't know whether to rig up a pump to get some circulation happening? or just stir it occasionally ...anyway ATM waiting for grains as well.


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## smashed jaffa

PP

I ended up with what I thought was 15 litres into the kettle. I was counting on 2 litres lost to MT deadspace, but now relise it is more closer to three. I wonder if anyone else using a gatorade MT with a false bottom is getting this amount of deadspace?(maybe I should start a new thread). I did my deadspace calc with water and no grain, I guess I am losing more than I think when I add grain to it. :blink: 

Anyway, I have just syphoned 10 litres into the fermenter (that what the fermenter says!), although my own calcs from my kettle say 12 litres( I lost 0.5 litres to trub). Hydrometer reading says 1.066. 

But here's the reason for my doing this experiment anyway... Is my kettle readings out,.... or is my Coopers fermenter measurements are wrong? Oh well I guess I'll have to check them all again). :angry: 

I then added 3 litres of cooled boiled water into the fermenter to bring it up to 13 litres at 1.051. Pitched 600 ml yeast at 12 C.

Now I'll just have to wait 8 weeks to taste! <_< 

I tasted what came out of the hydro reading and it was sweeeet! Maltier than I have had before at the same stage, and clearer.

I will definately try this method again, once I fix up my measurements.

Cheers,

SJ


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## poppa joe

I have pumps..???????
2..Grundfos electric....1 bilge pump..drilll operated......1 pond pump..1 Small 24v....
Just have to FIND OUT if they ARE SUITABLE FOR ANY OF THE Operations 
Forgot to mention i have a 25lt plastic boiler....20lt plastic boiler ...Small urns 1 / 12lt..2 / 8lt...
All sitting on a shelf ....."waiting" for some kind brewer to use them....
GGGGGEEEEzzzzz they look lonely and unwanted.....
Cheers
PJ


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## PistolPatch

Howdy Jimmy and Poppa!

I'm going to explain the, 'cognitive dissonance,' I mentioned early in this thread when forumming under the influence. Understanding it will save you and others a lot of money!

'Cognitive dissonance,' is when you buy or put a lot of thought into something and therefore want to make it work. Your mind then, very efficiently, cancels out other ideas!

Man, have I done this with brewing! Come and look in my cupboard - it's very embarrassing! This is why I get slightly pasionate in helping others save some time and money.

At this stage, I think both a pump and a bucket are not worth considering for reasons I've given below. I'm pretty confident that the two brews I have done will produce very good beer and we'll have some results on this in 6 days. I brewed that very badly too!

Two things. If mashing in a bag works, why would you want a bucket or a pump? It's more expensive (pump), harder to manage (how will you raise the bucket gradually?) and there is no logical reason or evidence to say it will result in a clearer beer. It DEFINITELY won't with only a bucket.

If mashing in a bag does not work, then why would using a bucket or a pump work any better? In my brews and from what Jaffa said there is no clarity issue with this method.

The ONLY question is a taste one which we haven't quite answered yet. But, taste is really only going to be affected by mashing in a high ratio which will not change with the bucket and pump method.

If anything, a bucket and pump will give you a poorer beer as you will be extracting ugly stuff from the top of the, 'grain bed.' There is not one advantage that can be gained from a pump. Please don't buy one!

The bucket can stay - use it to dump your mash bag in!

If you want to test the method without making a bag, just do as one of the really experienced brewers suggested to me and use a pillow slip.

One final thought, a really experienced brewer, not from around here loves this idea. Can't see ANY problems with it.

So, please, don't go wasting any money or thought on buckets and pumps. Go the pillow slip! I'd love to hear the results. I'm 99% sure that you'll get exactly the same results as I have.

So Jimmy - become a stirrer!!!!!

Excuse the wind of passion but by now you know it only comes from a desire to steer others on a far straighter course than I've been on.

LOL
Pat


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## PistolPatch

Howdy Jaffa,

Firstly I'd just like to say how much I enjoy your obvious enthusiasm for brewing. Love seeing people with your attitude. Got any sisters? lol!

It can be bloody hard when you're starting AG to work out all the figures. I'm still trying to make sense of my evaporation figures! Often your first AG goes perfectly and then subsequent ones throw you into a fast but not fast enough learning curve.*

I'm reading through your post now (an advantage of having 2 screens and probably why I write such long posts!) and already I can see where a lot of efficiency is going. Because you are mashing in the esky and at such small volumes, dead space is a real killer. My mashing in a bag calculation gave you 18 'real' litres going into the kettle - there is no dead space. You've written 15 litres but wort at this temperature is actually a higher volume and when converted to room temperature you actually had 14.25 real litres into your kettle! 14.25/18.0 times the efficiency I was getting of say 80% gives 63.3% already without losses to trub!

So, our real efficiency figures match, as they should.

Your efficiency into the fermenter (10 litres at 1.066) is around 55.5%.

A few suggestions...

When you drain your liquor from the esky, tilt it and let the liquor run through a hose into the kettle for as long as you like. Probably take the hose out for the last 20 minutes though. Tannin is not an issue.

The other thing I do is tilt the kettle when I turn the flame off. This allows all the trub to settle in a confined space. When I syphon, if I'm concentrating, I pull the syphon as soon as the dirt comes through. My wastage is therefore only around 4-500ml.

So tilting is great. Syphoming is also great *if* you have an auto-syphon (a whole $15!). While simple, it gives far more control and versatility than any other method I'm aware of.

Only other thing I can suggest is if the beer from mashing in a bag works out well, ditch the esky as a mash tun and use a bag!

This would leave you with the cognitive dissonance problem though of making use of your esky! My esky, which I've always used as a mash tun prior to the bag thing, is mainly used as a, 'fermenting fridge.' It is brilliant! Would your round esky hold a fermenter without a tap?

Hope this was of some help.

Good on ya,
Pat

* Check out the PM Screwtop sent me. You'll die laughing. It's post #16 of Funniest Posts And Pm's You've Read


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## jimmysuperlative

yeah, I know your right PP ...I can "overthink" things to the point where ideas just get shelved :wacko: 

while i call myself a believer in the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid) approach, I admit to being overcome by the "bling" of brewing systems and gadgets ...i want it to work first and foremost, but if it can look good too, well ...

so thanks for the wake up call ...and thankyou for the illustrated step-by-step "how to brew" outline. My God! What could be easier than this?

If it works (and it looks like it will), who gives a shite how I get the result!!  

>>insert quote about the road less travelled here<<


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## poppa joe

PP..
Jimmy mentioned pumps...(mine cost me ...just about zilch..0)
I got them but dont know ...yet.. what to do with themmm....
I got a grain bag...big one..Bucket easier to pull up..than grain bag..Sit it on the drip tray let it drain..
Got all this to try....But no grain...AAAArrGGGHHH.

Cheers
PJ


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## PistolPatch

Thanks for such a great reply Jimmy - makes my passionate post worthwhile! I am such a gadget man as well. It's ridiculous! And, it really is ridiculous to get so sidetracked from the end result. Thank God, there is also one part of me that loves effective simplicity above anything else. (Sounds like a quote from Road Less Travelled - lol!) Thanks Jimmy.

Poppa, I'm pretty bloody sure that you are the bloke that traded the pink paper clip for a house. Is this true? You get everything for zilch - lol! You say pumps as in the plural. Christ, how many pumps have you got? You never give too much away in your posts Poppa so I'm going to have a guess here that you have a grain bag AND a bucket? What happend to the ag pipe sock or is this your grain bag? Making me work hard here Poppa and it's 12:20am - thank God I have tomorrow off!

I reckon the mash bag I made up is easier than any bucket to pull up. Why? The weight you have to hold up is quickly reduced as the water/liquor drains extremely quickly when you lift the bag and give it a spin - like wringing dry a towell.

Lifting a bucket is going to be bloody heavy. If it's designed correctly, as in with a very fine mesh, the drainage from the bucket is going to have to be very slow so you'll need a lot stronger arm than I have. Even if you lift the whole bucket out and dump it in a drip tray, it's going to be bloody heavy if above waist height, as my kettle is. Then, you need a drip tray and then, you are exposing all your wort to oxygen. Some people say this oxygenation is a myth but I'm certainly not at a level of expertise where I'd like to test the waters to such an extent. Also, more people agree with this than don't so you are unneccessarily playing with fire here.

Did you manage to track down the source of your infection? You probaby have but thought I'd mention it just in case as there was one guy who lost over 1000 litres through not being able to identify the source. (In his kettle tap by the way.)

Crikey, that's way too much from me tonight! Poppa, get your lovely wife to make up a sock! Why not?

As for the pumps, I have some ideas for you on that but PM me with what the pumps actually are as we are probably way off-topic now. Whoops!

A very late goodnight!
PP

MORNING EDIT: James, sorry for gettig so carried away here last night and getting so far off your original idea of a bucket and pump. Despite all I've written above, the bucket will work but you'll need an easy way of raising it slowly. Still think the pump is obsolete though. Why do I write so much - grrrrr!!! Will try and keep my mouth shut as much as possible from now until the taste test!


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## James Squire

Just got in this morning to find all of Pat's new posts!!!  

After finally getting through them all, I shot off a PM to him but in returning here to post I've seen his updated edit! Gold! Mate, what kind of person would I be if I got my knickers in a knot over other people having opinions and advice differing from mine! I, as always, am excited to see other people working on improving their brewing. After all, that is why we are all addicted to this website isn't it. :blink: 

Anyway, seeing as I missed it in my PM, chill out Pat and keep up the good work. You are my very own ambassador for this thread and without you it would have died weeks ago!

I'll be (with a bit of luck... again!) finally recieving my new kettle today! :beerbang: Which means that I too will soon be swinging this method into action! Only need an immersion heater to complete my (bare minimum) brewing bling and then im up and running. Good luck to all the others that are up here on the bandwagon with Pat and I and fingers crossed for the taste test Pat! :chug: 

Cheers, 

JS


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## James Squire

Thats mad! :beerbang: My new 40 Litre Urn just arrived!!! :super: 

Totally pumped to get brewing ASAP! :super: 

Sorry for lame post :unsure: but im pretty excited about this new addition to the brewery!!!

JS


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## PistolPatch

Mornin' James,

Thanks for your post and PM. This thread wouldn't have died mate. Only thing I've done is made it a hell of a lot longer to read - lol

So the urn has arrived - great stuff! In your PM you mentioned an immersion element. Does the urn already have an element? If so, I hope you're teting it out now with some water. Maybe you won't even need another element to get a vigorous boil? If so, you could just use the bag method.

However, if you do need a second element, you'll have to pioneer the submerged container and mesh method with Poppa. If you do have to go this way, have you had any more thoughts on suspending the element and raising the container?

With a 40 litre urn, you should be able to use full volume so did all my ranting above change your ideas on using a pump?

Hope so - lol!

Pat


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## James Squire

PistolPatch said:


> ... you mentioned an immersion element. Does the urn already have an element? If so, I hope you're teting it out now with some water. Maybe you won't even need another element to get a vigorous boil? If so, you could just use the bag method.
> 
> With a 40 litre urn, you should be able to use full volume so did all my ranting above change your ideas on using a pump?



Hey Pat,

Yep the Urn already has a 2400W element fitted, from what I have read it may not produce a good enough boil (anyone?) but you can bet your ass as soon as I get home it'll be filled up and tested to find out! If not then i'll order the immersion element in...

I am fairly sold on the 'no pump' method! For the first little while i will prob brew without but the fact is that I have a brand new washing machine pump (i believe 80C rated) at home that is doing nothing and didn't cost me anything so it may get a run anyway!

As for the mesh in the bucket lifting requirements. I was thinking along the lines of a small frame above the urn that can be used to tie a rope off to and have the bucket handle attatched to the other end of the rope. Perhaps a hook or something can be secured to the frame and the rope can tie off to that... Still some thinking to do though...

JS


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## Steve Lacey

This has certainly been a fascinating thread. To me the issues are:

1) Feasibility. Are efficiency/conversion at such thin mash volumes good enough to make it even doable? That seems to have been resoundingly answered in the affirmative. So, basically, yes, you can make beer this way. 

2) Quality. Will there be any differences in wort composition from the thin mash? Has anybody tested pH during the thin mash yet? Any difference to a 3:1 mash? So it will be interesting to see the attenuation results and taste tests of these initial batches. Ultimately, though, I think there are going to have to be some tightly controlled comparative brews made with identical grain bills and yeasts. I also suspect the brewing literature would have some treatment of the effect of grain:water ratio on parameters like pH, enzyme activity levels, and saccharide and dextrin composition.

But I am open minded. It is another example, like batch sparging, where Pat's lesson about cognitive dissonance applies; we home brewers copy the practices of large scale brewers (three vessels) simply because that's how they do it. But the reasons may not because it is technically necessary, but because of practical limitations. At large scales, the extra size of the vessel needed relative to batch size is expensive/impractical, and more importantly, it is so much easier to take the liquid away from the grain than vice versa at those scales. "OK guys, mash is done, bring in the crane!"


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## PistolPatch

Trying to keep my mouth shut but without any success. I have an idea for James and a hello for Steve.

Good to hear from you Steve. I love your posts - always full of common sense. You asked about pH and interestingly enough, Saturday was the first time I even checked the pH of my water as I scored some of Ross's pH strips. Unfortunately, I didn't check that of the wort during the mash as I'm not sure at what stage you are meant to do it or what it means. I better do some reading instead of writing! I did find that the pH of my water was 6.6 and so I knocked this down to 5.3. This second brew seems to be moving along a lot quicker than the first even though it's 3 days younger. Will check pH levels of the wort and let you know what comes up. If this bag brewing works, it'd be quite a hit in Tokyo with all those small apartments - lol.

*Suspending the Bucket* 

James, I've been thinking about the problem of suspending the bucket and may have an idea or two. If you do framework, it's going to have to be very strong and is going to take up a lot of space. You also wouldn't want it hanging over your brew towards the end of the boil as infected wort could drip back into the kettle.

How about instead of framework, you have some sort of stand you can put in the kettle? In other words, lift the bucket/container and quickly drop in a stand that is high enough to keep the bottom of the container only just submerged above the wort. (I'm thinking that it's not a good idea to have the bottom of the container above the wort due to oxidisation - HSA). It's going to be hard to judge at what height to make the container sit though. In fact, not liking this idea at all now.

Probably the easiest thing to do if you are in a shed is just mount a pulley above your kettle. This way you'll have the control you want without the complicated framework. If you do go this way, be very careful, once again, about leaving the kettle under the pulley system towards the end of and after the boil. You don't want any drips going in.

*Raising the Mash Bag* 

Had a PM from someone today suggesting making framewrok for lifting out the mash bag. This is unneccessary. I had absolutely NO problems lifting the mash bag out on Saturday. No drips. Nothing. In fact, next time I'll pull the bag out at 66 degrees instead of 80 which will make it even easier for me to give it a twirl. You definitely won't need framework for a bag. I like that :beerbang: 

Cheers
Pat

Hope you've been having fun playing with the new kettle.


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## poppa joe

PP..I am only doing 16lt preboil as starter...
Only a few kilos of grain..
Have taken note of proceedings....May even put the grain bag-sock in the bucket in the urn...That way i have a choice if i cant lift the bucket....  Bucket sits on SS perforated cake tray to cover the element....Vinnies..$1.00 
Look in Grundfos pump thread...Kai or Braulover posted a photo....Mark i think can enlighten you more..
I bought 2 for $10.00 brass body plastic impeller...3 adjustable speeds....I have been told they are used for transfering hot liquids.
But apparently wont pump to great heights...
Cheers
PJ



PS. The Urn cost me $5.00


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## poppa joe

JS>>>
I think you will need an immersion heater as well....as the urn.....
I can boil 16lt ..but needs that little bit extra....
I have a small heater...not like pumpys...strung across urn with a brass rod.(configured so it dont go into urn)
But i have only done one Ag with mine...(waiting for grain)
PP.. THe heater was zilch also...Brand new..Friend was cleaning his garage...threw it out..on his trailer..
I rescued the little sucker (i like to give useless things a good home)(I am waiting for him to throw his other one out...It is a BBBig Electric Water Heater..similiar to an urn ..  ) I drool everytime i go to his place..

PJ


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## PistolPatch

Looks like I have a lot to learn about mash pH. My goodness! After Steve's post, I have just done some considerable reading without gaining much wisdom - have just reached the totally bewildered stage -lol.

When I was told to aim for a figure of around 5.2 - 5.5, I thought that meant the ph of water you add to the mash. I now realise it is the ph you want to acheive once the grain is mixed with the water and some grains will have more effect than others. Still haven't learned enough to know whether my adjustment on Saturday was a major stuff up or not. Wort still tastes good though!

Another thought was that because I used such a high volume of water to mash in, hopefully the pH didn't vary too much from 5.3. I'm hoping like hell that this is another advantage of large volume mashing but could well be fooling myself on this as I really don't have a clue.

Poppa, you are definitely that pink paper clip bloke - lol! Saw those pumps. And the urn, also five bucks. Heater free! Unbelievable!

The cake tray is a great idea too. I reckon I'll do this with the bag as well. I was told it's not a worry but I'm still a little uncomfortable with the grain being exposed to the direct heat.

Cheers
PP


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## James Squire

Hi all,

Pat, yeah i've been thinking a lot about it too... pulley system is where my thoughts were heading also. Seems like the go. Sorry for the crossed wires too but im not planning on having the bucket above the kettle during the boil... perhaps just let it drain as much as it does whilst raising the temp then move away. Perhaps a stir or a slight press with potato masher or something to finish up.

PJ, grouse idea with the cake tray. Very cool!

Also for Pat and PJ, I unfortunately haven't had the chance to fire up the Urn to test its boiling abilities as yet. Was planning to last night but got a late call up to play a night baseball game against the VIS (Vic Institute Sport). Hopefully tonight I'll give it a go...

Cheers,

JS


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## wobbly

James

Why would you want to stir it up or mash it with a potato masher?

If you were doing a "normal" mash in an "eski" you would just let it drain.

My 2c worth would be that after raising the "bucket" and having it "suspended" (by what ever means) above the boiler (urn) to them "sparge" by adding the required litres of 75 - 80 C water to make up to your boil vol as per "Mimerbryg's" comment back on the 14th July. His system talked about 6lt of sparge water.

One possibility to do this would be to simlpy use a 2lt kitchen kettle and heat the water up to 75 - 80c three times (assuming you have a thermometer that can be insereted into the kettle) and add this to the top of the mash and let it drain through into the boiler. You might want to place "something" on the top of the mash to help prevent the grain bed from being disturbed while adding the "sparge" water.

I'm working along the same lines as you (bucket in and Urn) and I intend using a cheap ($12) waterfeature pump located in the bottom of the urn to recirculate the wort to the top of the bucket, I have run the pump under test in 75C water for 3 hours and it doesn't seem to have caused any adverse effects (well it still works). By placing the pump in the urn along with the delivery line to the top of the bucket I get minimal heat loss in the wort being circulated.

Cheers

wobbly


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## James Squire

Wobbly,

Point taken on the stirring... My thoughts really moved from there anyway since this morning. Im very keen now to rig up a pulley (possibly on an arm) above the brewing area so as to have total control over height of the bucket in the urn (raised off element), and above (to prevent splashing). Having the pulley on an arm allows me to swing the bucket away from above the boil.

Recirculating is something that I have thought a bit about. As mentioned previously, I have a (new) washing machine pump that I intend to eventually trial for recirculating. Not recirculating to sparge though (as rinsing wort with wort is non effective) but mainly for even temps during mash and to improve clarity. The idea is possibly on the back burner though now that PP has trialled and reported crystal clear wort...

Sparging with more hot water is all good and well, though the whole idea is to mash in full volumes. 

Good to hear of someone going the bucket in Urn method with me! 

Cheers,

JS

PS. For those interested, I purchased the 40 Litre Urn *brand new* from Aaron Catering Equipment Nunawading VIC for the low low price of $225. It is a "Jomack" brand. Website located here, http://www.aaroncaterequip.com.au/PieFood%...#hot%20water%20 urn price listed as higher but you can talk them down... trust me!


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## PistolPatch

Can't believe you haven't fired up the urn yet James. Baseball compared to brewing? Am very worried about your commitment now - lol!

Wobbly, thought I'd throw the following in for you and any other poor bugger just joining this thread. With 110 posts to this thread, mostly very long ones (not sure by who???), I thought a summary and update would be appropriate as there is no no way I would read 110 posts of _any_ thread! It will also explain why James mentioned stirring and 'mashing'. It might take me a while to get there though at least reading my stuff is a lot quicker than writing it 

*A Thread Summary and Update* 

The thread started with an idea James had and gradually developed into some other ideas. Some experiments have been done and some are in trial. _We haven't as yet tasted any results._ 

(James also hasn't as yet realised the amount of people I have probably driven away from his thread through my long, detailed and sometimes even inebriated posts here. This is great for me but not so good for him. This means I can just write away!)

If I had to think of a new title for what James' thread has developed into, I'd probably call it...

*Full Volume All Grain Brewing. Is it Possible? What Equipment is Needed?*
*Subtitle: Is There an Easier Way for Us Amateurs to All-Grain Brew?* 

This means, 'Can you mash 5kg of grain in 30-35 litres of water?' and, 'What's the bare minimum of equipment needed to do so?' Straight away, this really needs 2 threads but so far it has been driven by us poor amateurs tossing around some ideas, getting off-topic and generally entertaining ourselves. Mainly thanks to the the direct and indirect assistance/encouragement from experienced AHB brewers, things have developed.

*Is it Possible?*

Well, as far as I can see, without tasting the beer - yes. AndrewQld started the experiments off in this field by mashing, in his esky, about 5kg of grain in 33 litres of water. He could see no ill-effects and found it a bit of fun. Smashed Jaffa also did a small batch in the same way. I followed this by a few brews using a mash bag in a kettle (no esky), one of which I, purposely <_< , brewed quite badly. The second one, I mucked around with pH levels but the experienced guys have told me today that it is not a worry - phew! At least one of my brews shoud be ready for a taste test on Saturday. The following week, I'll take the 2 brews to Brisbane for some experienced guys to taste.

*What Equipment Is Needed?*

If we are talking full volume mashing, a pump serves no purpose. The grains will be fully rinsed. All we are talking about here is a massive batch sparge - in a way, the more you stir the better as we are aiming to rinse the sugars thoroughly from the grain at the correct temperature and then remove this grain without leaving a heap of crap behind.

Here's where we get to equipment. What does the equipment have to do? All it has to do is strain the grain. Simple as that. We don't want grain husks etc., going into the wort. If we are going full volume, we don't have to worry about rinsing/sparging - it's already been done!

We are now up to the stage of considering two equipment methods. One involves basically a filter inside a bucket inside a kettle. The other is just a filter inside a kettle (mashing in a bag).

This is why James mentioned stirring or a slight press. He's just working on ways of how he's proposing to get that last bit of liquor from what the filter container he pulls out of the kettle. The filter will hopefully be fine enough for clarity to not be an issue.

Wobbly, your idea of sparging is certainly sound. James idea of using a pump to re-circulate for clarity is also sound but the thread seems to be now a little fixated on this full volume method due to the great initial results of the experiments as well as the lack of equipment and experience required. 

Told you I'd get there eventually Wobbly!

LOL!
Pat

EDIT: Just had a bash at shortening the above without much success. Hopefully it will help some people get up to date rather than be me just taking up more space - again!


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## poppa joe

I keep staring at my newly done setup...Looking all lonely there...WITH NO BLOODY GRAINS
TO PUT IN THEM..Not in yet...
Wobbly...i have one of those pumps...(Was sitting next to the immersion heater on the trailor)
Unpacked the box the pump still in its plastic wrap...left the funny looking thing that that the water runs down..
PP>>> the cake tray is a solid ss heavy one ..with holes similar to a coleander.....with legs...
PJ


PS....PP...got a paper clip to swap or trade...interested///????????


----------



## poppa joe

JS...
Just reading back ...your idea on an arm....
I have a swivel type mounting ..add an L arm mounted on an old straight type ford jack..
"VOILA'....Now where did i put that Jack...????
PJ


----------



## James Squire

Good Summary Pat,

Oh and your inebriated posts are the some of the best posts on this forum!

JS


----------



## PistolPatch

Won't write my usual essay...

Bag brewing is unexpectedly going on tour tomorrow and I have a quick question for the more experienced brewers....

AussieClaret invited me for a brew day tomorrow and so I thought, that I might as well pack my gear and do a brew alongside him. AndrewQLD kindly supplied me with a recipe and excellent notes within 15 minutes of my urgent request - a German Pils, so I was able to get Aussie to grab some grain today.

To make this, 'full volume,' brewing even easier for beginners, what do you think about adding the grain early?

So, add the grain first and then raise it to the strike temperature?

I was just thinking it would take one last calculation away for the beginners. I'm happy to give it a go tomorrow but is this a completely stupid idea? I'm after a beer that's at least 90% right. Fine tuning can come later. Would really appreciate any thoughts.

Many thanks,
Pat

P.S. The other beers seem to have handled the hammering I have given them so, if I'm going to test the waters on a pils, I might as well start at the deep end. If it turns out badly, it's my fault not the recipe's!


----------



## goatherder

I think it depends how early you add, and how quickly (and easily) you can adjust your temps.

We know that most of the conversion happens in the first 10-15 minutes of the mash. You probably want to hit your mash temp as soon as possible after the grain gets wet. I guess it's going to be a tradeoff between hitting the temp quickly and hitting it accurately.

How about this: Heat your full volume minus 2 litres of mash water to a bit above your strike temp. I'm guessing not too far above (say 68-70 degrees for a 65 mash?) as you have a lot more thermal mass in your water (and your tun is already hot) than a traditional 3 vessel brew. Add your grain, give it a stir, wait a minute and check your temp. Then add 2litres of cold or boiling (or a mix of both) to hit your strike temp.

If you added your grain early and needed to raise a few degrees, it's literally going to take minutes to do it. I think hitting the strike temp as quickly as possible and holding it there will give a greater batch-to-batch consistency for a new brewer.

Part of learning AG is getting to know your equipment. It will only take a brew or two for a someone to figure out the correct mash water temp to start with.


----------



## PistolPatch

Goat, you are going to love this one as I know you like playing around with some new ideas...

Firstly, your answer above is perfect and should make it pretty easy for anyone to hit strike quickly.

But, and I should have worded it better in my post above, what about just throwing the grain in at 30 degrees and then raising it to 67?

So, what I'm talking about is a step mash with no rests until you reach the strike tempertature.

I can't see any probs with this idea but then again I don't know nuffink - lol.

Many thanks Goat,
Pat


----------



## goatherder

PistolPatch said:


> But, and I should have worded it better in my post above, what about just throwing the grain in at 30 degrees and then raising it to 67?
> 
> So, what I'm talking about is a step mash with no rests until you reach the strike tempertature.



I see what you mean now, sort of a continuous step mash?

Whilst it would be interesting to see how it turns out, I think it introduces a potential for variation that we don't need right now. My reasoning is:

1: The continuous step mash profile is going to vary depending on your equipment. Burner size, kettle size and dimensions, ambient temp are all going to effect how long it takes you to get to strike. This mash profile will affect the end results. Whilst a single brewer should get reasonable brew-to-brew repeatability, the reproducibility of the results between brewers with different gear is going to vary, perhaps widely.

2: If brewers hit their strike temp quickly, and learn how to adjust it if they don't, we get both batch-to-batch repeatability and brewer-to-brewer reproducibility as everyone is using the same effective mash profile.

The repeatibility aspect is important for brewers to be able to fine-tune their processes and recipes. The reproducibility is important so that brewers can share their experiences and learn from each other, helping them improve faster as a group.

Maybe this is a bit theory heavy, what do you reckon?


----------



## PistolPatch

James Squire said:


> Oh and your inebriated posts are the some of the best posts on this forum!



LOL James! I really must do something about those. Don't mind being laughed at - just hope I don't drive the older forum members completely insane. Think I'll write .pdf files from now and post them instead!

*Bag Brewing Taste Results In - Thumbs Up!* 

This was the brew that I brewed with little skill and many errors. Forced carbonated the keg yeserday using some unfamiliar equipment before heading to AussieClaret's to do a brew. The beer was too cold and very under-carbonated. I wasn't too impressed. It was highly drinkable but not as rich as the Schwartz should be. (Also tasted it amongst other quite bitter beers so maybe this had an effect as well.)

Today however, I had to race up to Ross's to get a fridge controller to repair my fridge so gave the keg another carbonation and took the beer to Ross's. I was bloody surprised! This was yummy! Both of us found it a very enjoyable beer. Also, it is still only 10 days since the yeast was pitched so we should expect some further development.

After that taste today, I would describe it as certainly a very good beer - very pleased.

*Goatherder* Thanks for taking the trouble to reply above. Really appreciated. Your points were spot on and in no way too heavy in theory. You always write well. Found out today that there shouldn't be any trouble with doing the, 'continuous step mash,' but might leave that little experiement until later. God knows why I even thought of yet another experiment esp. when doing my first lager. What an idiot!

Gotta go but one last thing. It was great to yesterday be able to load up my brewing gear, head to AussieClaret's and do a brew together side by side. Can't think of a nicer way to brew. Go the bag!!!

 PP


----------



## stephen

PP

One of the things to look at while doing your continual step mash is that you are going to go throught a couple of rests: The temps where certain things will happen that you may or may not like to happen.

First is the "Phytase rest" at the 30 deg mark. This is where phytic acid is produced to help adjust the PH of the mash. Pilsener Urquel, in the original days, would use this step to lower the Ph for the mash. Whether you want this in your brew and/or if it would enhance your brew is yet to known.

The next rest is the "Protein rest" at about 50 deg C. Again wether you want/need this rest during your mash will be determined by the style.

Not trying to scare you in your experimental endeavours (and trust me we are learning lots from your endeavours) but to let you know of other forces that could be at work whilst you are brewing. These may enhance your brew or produce something you weren't expecting.

Regards and all the best in your endeavours,

Stephen.

PS The beauty of this forum is that if I have made a mistake then others will correct me.


----------



## Phrak

Guys, I've been tracking this topic since it's inception - very interesting and exciting!

Prior to reading the topic, I often thought about doing the mash inside a bag, but still using an esky as the mash tun. Once less piece of equipment is certainly appreciated!

So, there's a lot of information and hypotheses in this topic, do we think that we could have some sort of summary post with the details? I'm particularly interested in settling the discussion whether to increase the grain bill or not and but how much. And the one about squeezing the bag to extract the last bit of extract - bad or good?

JS, PP, Stephen, Goat, AndrewQLD, PJ, et all, Thanks for the lively discussions! You've all brought me one step closer to my first AG.

Tim.


----------



## wobbly

Today I did a "Bucket in an Urn" trial run and base on initial results was impressed enough to try again

Equipment

Urn capacity 30 lt with 2400 watt element
Bucket capacity 25lt bucket fermenter with about 20 by 9mm hole drilled in the bottom
Screen was a piece of fibre galls fly wire held in the bottom of the bucket by a metal ring
Pump was a JEBO/Water Master submersable indoor fountain pump 350lt/hr low voltage 12 volt purchased from Bunnings for $12.70
Bucket Dia was 300mm = approx 700mls per cm
Urn was 350 dia = approx 960mls per cm
Bucket susspension rig is simply a 12mm ply wood base plate for the urn to sit on with a couple of vertical arms 900mm long screwed to the base and angle braced back to the base and a removabletop spreader with a couple of notches cut in each end to hold the top of the side supports together 

Proceedure

Added 25lt water to urn and heated to 75C and then installed pump and bucket and let temp stabilise to strike temp of 73C
Water vol inside bucket was 21cm or 14.8lt (Beersmith schedule based on 3lt/kg called for 14.68lt at 73.6C)
Added grist of 4.9kgs (2.5kg pils, 1.5kg wheat, 250g carapils, 130g munich, 20g chocolate, 2 cups rice hulls)and stired as normal to break up any dough balls
Placed a couple of sheets of Al Foil on top of mash with about a dozen holes punched in it with the stem of the digital thermometer for the pump to discharge onto
Set urn thermostate to 65C and started to run pump but mash temp was 69C most likely due to not loosing as much heat to grist due to additional thermal mass between bucket and urn walls
Added about 750mls of cold tap water and temp came down to 66.5C with pump running 
Mashed for 90 mins and pump outlet constant at 66C through out.
Clearest wort I have ever seen
Lifted bucket and suspended above urn and sparged with 3 lots of 2lts water heated in kitchen kettle to 80C 
Had to "field adjust" bucket suspension for last sparge addition so as to get bucket level with top of wort.
Target boil vol as per Beersmityh was 26.5lt actual was 27lt (I plan to add 5 lt of "top up water" as per Beersmith at the end of the boil so that I would have a bit of head space during boil to control any foaming)
Beersmith estimated pre boil SG at 1039 actual was 1040 @ 20C (I gusee it may have been usefull to check the pump discharge SG at the end of the mash just to understand what it was)
Through out the mash the water between the side of the bucket and the side of the urn stayed clear which you would expect due to the sweet wort having a higher SG than the water between the two vessels. So maybe this means that the grist to water ration is closer to 3 to 1 that 5 to 1
Had to "insulate" the side of the urn to help to maintain a rolling boil
Time to do the brew from start of grain crush to wash up was about 5 hours which is about the same as my normal time I think with a bit more organisation this would come down to about 4.5hrs.


What would I do different next time

Improve the urn insulation and possibly think about an Immersion heater to help the boil along
Consider dropping initial water vol to 22lt which would then equate to about 12.5 lt in the bucket giving thicker mash ratio of around 2.6 to 1 need to think about that and would appreciate any comments

If the "Proof of the pudding in the drinking" is satisfactory I will consider converting a 50lt keg to a boiler (3600 watt low wattage element) and maybe improve the bucket design by cutting out the bottom and replacing with say some "termi mesh" or similar 











As above I consider the results encourageing enough for me to try again and possible fiddle a bit to improve my proceedures. The main advantage I see is that I can do a full grain brew all in the one vessel 

Cheers

Woobly


----------



## wobbly

Further update.

Final vol of boil was 22lt at SG of 1050, Didn't get the boil of I had predicted due to less vigorous rolling boil

Final vol into fermenter was 18lt due to higher than planned trub losses, will use a Muslin hop bag next time to reduce trub loss

Used Beertools Dilution Tool and added 5lt to make up to 23lt. Beertools predicted an SG of 1039 for 23lts Actual SG measured at 1039

Should turn out to be a mid strength beer around 4.4% Al

Cheers

Wobbly


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## mimerbryg

@stephen


> First is the "Phytase rest" at the 30 deg mark. This is where phytic acid is produced to help adjust the PH of the mash. Pilsener Urquel, in the original days, would use this step to lower the Ph for the mash. Whether you want this in your brew and/or if it would enhance your brew is yet to known.


Another way to adjust your PH is by adding 2 - 5% acidulated malt or sauer malt (5% for a light beer and less for a darker one.) You will not be able to taste it, in the brew.

@woobly


> Improve the urn insulation


We use a cheap camping matress. Se pics in post #4
here



> Bucket capacity 25lt bucket fermenter with about 20 by 9mm hole drilled in the bottom
> Screen was a piece of fibre galls fly wire held in the bottom of the bucket by a metal ring


Instead you can drill a trillion 2,5 mm to 3,5 mm holes in the bucket. As long as you can find place for a new hole: drill it :unsure: . 
It is a cheap way, which works fine with your kettle.



> Bucket susspension rig is simply a 12mm ply wood base plate for the urn to sit on with a couple of vertical arms 900mm long screwed to the base and angle braced back to the base and a removabletop spreader with a couple of notches cut in each end to hold the top of the side supports together


Here is another one
To hold the rope use a sailboat cam cleat (like this one)
The system is copied from this

But your system look and seem to work fine to me.

Kind regards
Flemming


----------



## PistolPatch

Heading out the door so I'll be as brief as I possible can....

Tim: I wrote a bit of a summary in Post #111 which may be of help. Quite a few 'sub-topics' have developed in this thread. Three most important ones (I think) are:

1. 'Full Volume Brewing - Are there any negative facors?' - (Maltiness is irrelevant to this method of brewing - it's a separate subject so as for having to use more grain, the answer is no. Efficiencies with full volume also seem to be as good or better than normal sparge methods at this stage.) Only questions I can see to be relevant at this stage are overall taste with maybe some emphasis on mouthfeel. Not much data on this at this stage. What little we have is good so far.

2. Full Volume Brewing in a Bag: I'd say this is the simplest method and is very suitable for those who can use gas burner or have a very strong electric hotplate. Tannin is only an issue when you wash a bit of grain over and over again. This is a thing to watch in fly sparging as water is continually running over the grain at the top of the bed. It is not an issue in batch sparging and certainly not an issue in bag brewing. When you squeeze the bag, you are not, 'hosing down' or rinsing the grain so, no worries. This method is also 30 minutes faster than a normal batch sparge.

3. Full Volume Brewing using a Bucket in an Urn: This method requires a little more equipment and is suitable for those using an immersion element where, if a bag were used, it could be burned. Bag could be used if the element that came with the urn were strong enough to acheive a vigorous boil. Wobbly has done a brilliant job of trying this out in his posts immediately above. Good on you Wobbly!

Hope this helps a little Tim with your two main questions.

Stephen: Thanks for another top post mate. Gotta go but one quick question. Do you have any thoughts on what would occurr if you didn't stop for any of the rests? i.e. Just heating the whole mash as fast as possible until it hit your strike temperature?

Thanks and good on you Wobbly!
Pat

EDIT: Didn't have time to check the above this morning so hope the few typos didn't throw anyone.


----------



## stephen

Pat

The phytase rest was to allow the lighter malts eg pilsener to produce this acid (phytic acid) to lower the PH of the mash. More robust beers such as Guinness do not this rest as the roasted malts will help lower the PH. This rest is typically 20 mins.

The protien rest is another rest that is generally used with malts containing large, complex proteins. At this temp Protease goes to working breaking them down. Wheat styles and beers with a high wheat bill can benefit with a protien rest. The only downside to this is that the longer you let the rest go the more protien will be broken down resulting in possible head retention problems.

As with most rests there is a best temp and a range that will work. eg. To say that Beta amylase will only work at 62 or 63 Deg C (can't remember optimum temp) is a bit misleading as it has about a +/- 5 deg range that it will also work. As doa all the rests. So the quicker you can pass through these rest temps on your way to saccharification rest temps the less alteration will occur. 

To accuratley predict what will happen is diffcult to say as there are many variables to consider: The Malt bill being the biggest. eg, if you are making a wheat beer or a light pilsener then the slower you raise your temp the better the outcome (possible), using this proccess for a stout may end up with a very astrigent roasty bitterness. 

This all theoretical until proven otherwise.

Regards

Stephen


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## James Squire

Wobbly, mate, you are a champ!

The above setup is *exactly* what I had in mind for this! :super: Im pretty close to getting off the marks with this too (finally, renovations really get in the way of brewing!) in fact tonight I have plans to take to the plastic bucket with my drill. Last night I replaced my Urn tap with a ball valve, hopefully tomorrow my immersion element comes in and away I go.

Couple of questions for you first mate,

Did you need to stand the bucket on anything to keep it off the element or did the pond pump handle that for you?

Pond pump was running throughout the entire length of the mash?

Obviously you removed the bucket and grain prior to commencing boil? 

How high above wort level did you have the bucket when you rinsed with the kettle water?

What was the achieved efficiency?

Cheers for now mate, but big kudos for a job well done! Here's to the tasting! :beer: 

JS

PS Tim, it seems at this early stage of the trials that no excess grain is required based on others' efficiency results. Suprising to me but... perhaps someone else can confirm?


----------



## wobbly

JS re your questions

1. I had the bucket just clear of the element by using 4 SS bolts as "stand offs" mounted on the bottom of the bucket. I can post a picture later if you want.

2. Pond pump ran for entire mash . Including my intial trails about a week ago this pump has now ran for about 4 to 5 hours in 66 to 70C water/wort without issue. I also had about 1.5 to 2 meters of 12mm discharge line on the pump and this was just suspended in the wort between the bucket and the urn wall with only the final discharge end going over the edge of the bucket so heat loss was not an issue. I guess the length of the discharge line increased the pump head a bit so I don't think I was getting the 350lt/hr rate possibly only about half that which was OK. There was no sceince about the length of discharge line it was just the length I had.

3. Yes bucket removed for boil

4. Had the bottom of the bucket just sitting in the wort when sparging/rinsing to stop any HSE. So bucket was height adjusted 3 times , 1st time as per rig, 2nd time raised by turning spreader on side (was a piece of 38 by 50mm) 3rd time was "field adjust" with roll of masking tape. But a sail clamp would be a better solution as you could have infinate adjustment just need to make the support stand a bit diferent.

5. Efficiency according to Beersmith into boiler was 81% and brewhouse eff was 67.4%. I lost more to trub than I planned only allowed 2lt and actual was more like 4 or 5 lt. Next time I will make and use a "muslin" hop bag for the boil. I may also consider replacing the fly wire screen with a piece of Muslin due to finer mesh but then this may block and restrict flow. I read somewhere else on a system like this where there were fine filter pads placed top and bottom in the bucket (mash tube as they called it). From what I could understand of that system the pump outlet discharged into the bottom of the "tube" sort of underletting with the return being out and over the top of the bucket some how at least that was what I understood the description to say. Don't know will think about this a bit more and maybe try it after I see the trub loss results from using the hop bag for the boil.

6. To improve my boil I think I will source an immersion element and do a strong rolloing boil of the first runnings (possibly 30mins) and get the foaming action over and done with and then I believe I will be able to get closer to the final boil vol with my limited urn capacity without having to worry so much about boil overs. After this initial agressive boil I would cut back to a single element for the 60 min hop boil I should also get better hop utilization by being closer to full vol boil

7. For me this has been a cost effective way of setting up what is basically a RIMS system in a single vessel 
Second hand 30 lt Urn $90
Slightly damaged 25lt bucket fermenter $15
Pond Pump $12.7
Fly screen and Hose $4
4 SS bolts and nuts $6
Ply wood $7
Total $135 And If I purchase an immersion heater add say another $96 Say all up $240 to $250

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## Phrak

Yep that helps a lot, Thanks Pat and JS.

The only thing I'm stuck on now is how to set this up in Beersmith. Can anyone offer some pointer?

Tim.


----------



## James Squire

Cheers Wobbly,

Will be interesting to see the brewhouse eff once you get on top of the trub losses issue. I was thinking about using standoffs to keep the bucket off the element. A lot less hassle than height adjusting with the frame... I'll probably be using a washing machine pump external to the urn rather than the submersed pond pump (although I do have one of each in the shed!) Hopefully my volumes wont be as much of an issue as my urn is a 40L job.

Oh, not sure whether you've followed the immersion element thread that was around recently but you'll probably do better that $96 by contacting Tobins I believe. I was set to order through them until I found a local supplier that accepted a family trade account to order one in cheaper again for me.

All the best mate,

JS


----------



## RobW

goatherder said:


> PistolPatch said:
> 
> 
> 
> But, and I should have worded it better in my post above, what about just throwing the grain in at 30 degrees and then raising it to 67?
> 
> So, what I'm talking about is a step mash with no rests until you reach the strike tempertature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see what you mean now, sort of a continuous step mash?
Click to expand...


That would make it an escalator mash then?


----------



## wobbly

JS a few more pictures of the gear.

1st Shows how clear the wort was into the fermenter
2nd Shows the bottom of the bucket, holes and stand off's etc
3rd Metal ring and fly screen
4th Screen in the bottom of the bucket
5th Pump
6th A few cable ties were necessary to hold the 12mm discharge line in situ

The pump was just positioned on the bottom opf the urn sort of wedged between the side of the bucket and he side of the urn














Hope this is of some use 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## mimerbryg

> The only thing I'm stuck on now is how to set this up in Beersmith. Can anyone offer some pointer?


This profile is made, based on measuring data for 5 brews.




You can download the profile directly here
Profile for Nimbus system

Translation of the 'Notes':
_25 lrt. Nimbus - RS270: The equipment profile for Lund Tecnics 29 L stainles steelpot (RS270), mounted with insetstrainer, recirculation via pump and distribributioncoil, counterflow chiller and bazooka hopscreen.
The data is based on 5 measuring_


The system is for sale here

Kind regards
Flemming


----------



## Phrak

mimerbryg said:


> This profile is made, based on measuring data for 5 brews.
> <snip>Translation of the 'Notes':
> _25 lrt. Nimbus - RS270: The equipment profile for Lund Tecnics 29 L stainles steelpot (RS270), mounted with insetstrainer, recirculation via pump and distribributioncoil, counterflow chiller and bazooka hopscreen.
> The data is based on 5 measuring_



Thanks Flemming! That's roughly the same inputs that I used in my guesstimations. I wasn't too far off the mark 

Tim.


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## James Squire

Thanks for your kind help once again Flemming.

It's good to have someone around that has experience with this type of brewing. This is very new to all the members here.

Cheers again,

JS


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## PistolPatch

Stephen thanks for yet more of your top info. I'll definitely have a bash at the 'escalator mash' at some stage just out of interest.

Excellent pics and posts Wobbly - maybe you can give me posting lessons? How clear is that wort! I've got that pump too by the way but use it for chilling. Works really well. Also, you should get some trub loss improvement from the sock for sure.

Zizzle and a neighbour dropped over to taste the bag brew last night resulting in me doing some ridiculous posting to this thread, now deleted - lol! He's going to have a bash at some smaller brews using a 20lt el cheapo SS pot I have so it'll be interesting to see how much volume you can score in such a small pot.

He's also kindly wiring up my two Mashmaster fridge controllers so my next attempt at AndrewQLD's lager shoud be spot on fermenting wise. Te current one seems to be travelling along quite nicely though.

One interesting point I haven't mentioned is that when I brewed at Aussie's on Saturday, the mash using bag brewing was 30 minutes faster than the batch sparging. Nice little time saving that.

Cheers
PP


----------



## wobbly

Flemming

Re your post #133 on the Beersmith setup, could you give me a few more details on the "Nimbus" system.

1. Is your system basically a 29lt Stainless Steel Boiler

2. If so how do you manage to do a 30lt boil without getting a "boil over" and end up with 25lt final volume without any "top up water"?

3. What is the Kilowatts of the heating element?

Cheers 

Wobbly


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## mimerbryg

@woobly
Here are my answers:

1: 
I dont know the english word, but in germany its kown as a 'Rommelsbacher' or 'Einkochsautomat'
They sell lthem in many shops in germany. Here are som links:
Link 1
Ebay

So the short answer to you question is 'yes'  

2: 
Our procedure is slighty different from the procedure used above.
Normaly we start with 23 liter, and top op with 5-7 liters of water, to get 25 liters. Evaporation is ca. 10% pr. our. We meassure the SG before adding water to hit the desired gravity. But even though I had the basic eqipment (incl. extra kettle for hot water) I like the idea in this thread. 19 Liters would be okay to fill a Cornelius Keg and then quit the bottling. And then we dont have to heat up the sparge water.
You can see our schedule at the beginning of this thread

3:
2000 W


If interessted I can take som more pictures of the parts of my system. Basicly it is very simple, but effective and I like it a lot :wub:


----------



## wobbly

Thanks for that Flemming

Based on your lower evaporation rate and 2000 watt element it would appear that you do not target an "aggressive" (strong) rolling boil to provide a high evaporation of around 14% per hour that appears to be the normal in Australia

Maybe high evaporation rate boils are not necessary maybe others would like to comment

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## mimerbryg

We havent had any problems with DMS and to get a full boil, we use the campingmatress.

Okay we dont get a wild boil like this guy but I dont think it is necessary.

Further reading:
evaporation and how to calculate it
Something about full boil

Kind reagds
Flemming


----------



## PistolPatch

*Taste Test on the Scwartz I Brewed Properly*

Going to be very brief here. Check out this thread for my opinion of the second bag-brewed beer. Remember the one done without distraction? Beautiful!

Cheers
PP

P.S. Great posts Mimeryberg and welcome to the forum.


----------



## Adamt

Just read the whole thread (phew.), I think I'll be using this method for my first partial, I have a pot, and barbecue (lol) that could boil a maximum wort volume of about 10L, eventually.

How much grain would you think I could bag-mash with 10L of water?

Might use a duffel bag or something to save me getting drawstring put in some curtains, I'd guess you would boil the bag in some water and sanitise it before using?

As far as "giving the bag a twirl", is that just shaking it a bit to get most of the liquor out before its transferred to the other vessel to rest?

Ta.
-Adam


----------



## James Squire

G'day Adam,

This method is not really required for a partial with a volume of 10L. To do a 10L partial you can boil a concerntrated wort and then top up your fermentor volume. However, power to you if you decide to follow this method....

Mashing @ 2.5L water per Kg grain would be ok though. Eg. Say you mashed 3Kgs grain in your bag in 7.5L water. Then remove grain bag and 'twirl' (PP method which simply involves spinning the bag to effectively wring it out). Bring the resulting wort to the boil and add 1.5-2 Kgs of extract. Do some hop additions along the way and you are good to go. 

Software will help you to work out the exact recipe (Im pretty sure I read somewhere you have Beersmith or Promash?) Something to be careful with is allowing enough headroom for the Hot Break otherwise you may wind up with a boil over... 

I recently brewed a partial using:

1Kg Pils Malt
1Kg Wheat Malt
.25Kg Medium Crystal
1.7Kg LLME
Bit of POR for bittering
Some Hallertau to flavour
US56

Here's a good link on Partial's by Cubbie:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&hl=partial

Otherwise, choosing to brew using this "all in one" method you would just be doing an AG mini batch at 8L or something. Maybe find yourself a bigger pot and go All Grain using this method!!!! 

Good luck, 

JS


----------



## Adamt

Currently due to being a uni student, I'm limited with my substandard brew equipment.

The thing that appeals me about this method is the no-sparging bit, by following Cubbie's partial method I'd have twice as much liquor to boil, which in my case is a problem.

I understand this thread was actually about full volume AG'ing, but I'm seeing it as being very helpful from a moving-into-partial point of view.

I now have a strange feeling I've missed something lol. I won't be brewing for another 4 weeks until holidays though.


----------



## James Squire

Yep, cool. I gotcha! I was kinda just dropping the sparge out for you anyway! 

How about mash 3Kgs in 9L water. Remove bag, add extract and hop additions... Hey presto!

Same theory... sort of.... just do a partial mash but forget the sparge step. I've done before and its all good as long as you don't mash too sticky. Stick to 3L:1Kg ratio and you'll be all good.

All the best.

JS


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Getting two giant *grain socks* made up as we speak ...grains on the way ...

top notes and discussion from all you blokes for inspiration 

... can't wait to get one of these brews into a keg :beer: 

anyone else going to trial this method?


----------



## James Squire

Good to hear Jimmy,

Another convert then! All my bits are collected now too so I'll (finally!) be brewing shortly too... time to chuck an RDO I reckon! 

Cheers,

JS


----------



## AndrewQLD

Ok, my Bosuns is kegged and I am drinking it.
The brew fermented well but finished slightly high at 1.012, it usually drops to around 1.008. This beer seems more malty than normal possibly due to the higher FG, but I think its more to do with not over washing the grains. By this I mean, since I did not do a normal sparge, only the malt was transfered to the boiler and not any undesirables. The beer is crystal clear as it always is and the hop bitterness and flavour are as normal. 

I can't fault the beer but the true test will be in the judging at the ANAWBS  .

Personally I think this method is a good start for the equipement challenged and produces a good drinkable beer without any loss to quality.

Cheers
Andrew





AndrewQLD said:


> 60 minutes into the mash and a refrac reading gives me 1.030, 5 points under expected, 30 minutes later the reading was 1.033, only a loss of 2 points from my expected eff. into the boiler. To be honest that is better efficiency than I thought I would get, so obviously the extra 30 minutes mash time helped a lot.
> 
> I recirculated the wort for about 10 minutes and then pumped to the boiler, Volume was spot on 33lt and the SG read 1.033 so an efficiency of 68.6% into the boiler, normally I would get 70% but a drop of 1.4% is not worth worrying about. Starting the 90 minute boil now so all should be as normal from here on in.
> 
> This method is very simple, heat all your water, dump in the grains, stir, leave for 90 minutes, Recirculate and pump to boiler.
> 
> Tiny efficiency drop, but it's so close to being on the money it's not worth worrying about.
> Temp in the mash tun stayed fairly constant with only a 1 degree drop over the 90 minutes probably due to the fact the tun was so full.
> I seemed to spend less time hanging around the brewery waiting for the batch sparges to complete ect.
> 
> I didn't raise the mash temp for mash out but my burner was turned on straight away and the wort was boiling within 10 minutes of the mash tun being empty. My slight eff drop could have been caused by not raising the temp to mash out.
> 
> This method did not really save any time on the day due to the extra 30 minutes mashing.
> 
> I will let everyone know how the beer tastes in about 3 weeks when it is kegged. I will be interested to see if the maltiness or mouthfeel are effected by this method.
> 
> So to sum it all up mashing with all of your brew water did not really effect my efficiency or clarity of the wort into the boiler, it's simple and easy to do, and I think I saved electricity by not having to raise the sparge temps as I do when I batch sparge.
> 
> I will leave it up to you fellas to work out the hard part :blink: , doing it all in one vessel :lol: .
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew


----------



## James Squire

Thanks for getting back Andrew,

Its great to hear another success story and I was really keen to find out what an experienced brewer such as yourself thought of the result of this method.

Appreciate the fast response to my PM today too.

Good luck in the ANAWBS mate, I hope it does you well! It'd be good to see a brew from this method do well! Go the Bosuns!

Cheers,

JS


----------



## PistolPatch

Adamt said:


> Just read the whole thread (phew.)



You should try and get on Ripley's Beleive It or Not. Some people really took up some space in this thread eh? - lol



Adamt said:


> Might use a duffel bag or something to save me getting drawstring put in some curtains, I'd guess you would boil the bag in some water and sanitise it before using?
> 
> As far as "giving the bag a twirl", is that just shaking it a bit to get most of the liquor out before its transferred to the other vessel to rest?



Just use a white pillow slip. Personally I would Napisan it first but just a washed slip should be fine. For your first few goes, you could probably even use safety pins to make a false hem to put a drawstring through so as you can tie the liner/slip off qround the rim of the kettle.

After you twirl the bag, let it untwirl and it will stop dripping. Dump it in a bucket or something for ten minutes. More wort will drain out. Give one final good twirl and wringing and then pour the extra wort back into your kettle.

Cheers
Pat

P.S. Go Jimmy! And AndrewQLD, trying to restrict my word volume so all I'll say is, great news and a sincere thank you. :beerbang: :beerbang: :beerbang:


----------



## ausdb

wobbly said:


> 5. Efficiency according to Beersmith into boiler was 81% and brewhouse eff was 67.4%. I lost more to trub than I planned only allowed 2lt and actual was more like 4 or 5 lt. Next time I will make and use a "muslin" hop bag for the boil. I may also consider replacing the fly wire screen with a piece of Muslin due to finer mesh but then this may block and restrict flow. I read somewhere else on a system like this where there were fine filter pads placed top and bottom in the bucket (mash tube as they called it). From what I could understand of that system the pump outlet discharged into the bottom of the "tube" sort of underletting with the return being out and over the top of the bucket some how at least that was what I understood the description to say. Don't know will think about this a bit more and maybe try it after I see the trub loss results from using the hop bag for the boil.



Wobbly sorry to come in late on this but how are you chilling your wort? I have boiled small batches in my urn and just have a copper tube pickup leading to the bottom of the urn (I have a ball valve fitted to my urn as the tap was busted when I got it). As a kettle screen I just wedge a stainless scrubby under the pickup tube against the side and base of the kettle, a good whirlpool after the boil and some time to settle and it works a treat and doesnt leave too much wort behind to spooge and hop debris. Also I tend to use a mixture of pellets and plug hops.

HTH

Thanks for your report on this method, I have just scored a 40L urn and this sounds like a great project :beer:


----------



## wobbly

Hi asudb

Answers to your questions.

1. I use a 9mm immersion chiller
2. I have a "copper elbow" fixed to the "standard" urn tap inlet and on a water test I only left behind 500mls before I lost syphon
3. Haven't had all that much success with whirlpooling in the urn. I think the element seems to interfear with the whirlpool.
4.My first attempt at this method used a mixture of Pride Plus flowers and Amerillo pellets. Noticed some of the flowers got stuck in the standard urn tap. Perhaps I should consider replacing the standard urn tap with a ball valve which would give a larger/less restricted flow opening.
5. Maybe my losses were higher than they could/should have been because I have been a bit pedantic on making sure that "none" of the break or hop debris was allowed into the fermenter. Perhaps if I used a simple screen as you mention and just let it drain it wouldn't be an issue. Also I let the wort settle (continue to cool) over night and then drop into a second fermenter to airate and that could be a better place to limit the break/debris entering the final fermenter?
6. Haven't used a screen so I will try that next time (third All in one Brew)

Other comments on the "All in One Process"
1. My urn at 30lt is to small and you really need 40lt cpacity
2. To make life easier you would benefit from still having a HLT for the batch sparge water. Iv'e done two brew this way now with the kitchen kettle and whilst it works a single container of the require vol of sparge water would make life easier.
3. The system you adopt to raise and hold the "mash bucket' above the urn/boiler needs to be simple to position and use. Iv'e tried a couple of versions of "stands" and I'm now comming around to thinking that a "sky hook" and a small pulley would make life a lot easier. Currently considering putting a "suitably sized" cup hook into the ceiling above where I brew because it would be just something els that "doesn't take up room" and is there waiting to go.
4. I think the real benefit of the "all in one" is the simplicity in my case of getting very clear wort as a result of being able to recirculate at the same time as maintaing mash temperatures all in one vessel using a cheap fountain pump
5. I'm satisfied with the results of the process (trub aside which I'm sure I will get on top of) to date that if the taste test doesn't highlight any fatal flaws I will start looking around for a 40lt urn

Cheers

Wobbly


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## ausdb

Cheers Wobbly 

Your chilling info is handy, I currently use a counterflow but are thinking of making an immersion chiller to use with an all in one system and then recirculating whilst chilling as in this page. 
http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

As for filtering after the boil just try one of these wedged under your pickup tube, with your flowers and pellets mix it should work well
http://www.curlygirlproducts.com.au/ 

As for the other comments, how did you sparge and for how long and how much water? I have been trying to understand the danish page that Flemming referred to and sparging doesnt seem so clear to me. As for an extra HLT luckily I have a 20L urn as well  

I am trying to streamline my brewing process so hopefully I can brew more often with less hassle involved in setting it up and cleaning everything as I tend to brew sporadically. Whilst the 3 vessel brewstands with herms are great this basically can do the same thing with a lot less parts and amount of space.


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## wobbly

Hi ausdb

Have another read of my post #122 and you will see that I basically rinsed/sparged with 6lt of water. To do this I just heated 2lt of water in the kitchen kettle to 80C and tipped that onto the Al foil cover on the grain bed. I repeated this 3 times.

In my second brew using the All in One method I lowered the initial water vol in the urn to equate to about 12lt in the bucket to provide a grain to water ratio of around 2.5 to 1. I did this just to see if there would be any issues associated with mashing at the more traditional ratio of 2.5 to 1. In this instance I had to rinse/sparge with 10lt so it was just more of the same using the kitchen kettle but 5 times instead of three. I guess there would have been about 4 or 5 mins between each rinse/sparge addition as that was the time it took to fill and heat the kettle each time. At the end I just left the bucket suspended over the urn for around 15 mins to let the grain bed well and truly drain after the last addition of rinse/sparge water. 

Whilst it wasn't onerous or take all that long it was the heating of a number of lots of rinse/sparge water that led me to make the comment that a second HLT would make life easier.

Beersmith predicted my pre boil SG to be 1042 and I measured it at 1040 so a couple of points off. I didn't check the SG at the end of the mash (pre rinsing) or the run off after each rinse/sparge so I can't comment on when I should have stopped rinsing/spargeing (below SG of say 1010). I am planning a further brew later this week so I will take a few more SG readings and post results. 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly

Hi asudb

Have a look at this write up ,it's in english and whilst not the Danish system I'm sure that it is very much the same





Cheers

Wobbly


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## James Squire

POP!  There goes my AG cherry!  

Well after a lot of talk and no action I've finally gotten around to putting my 'all in one' theories to practice! What an enjoyable day it was too. Not only my first all in one brew but also my first AG! All went to plan using my little bucket in urn rig which is very similar to wobbly's (I pinched your pond pump idea too... told you we were on the same wavelength) only difference being I used no sparge water at all and I didn't top up any volume for the boil.

Just filled my urn to a volume worked out in Beersmith (final vol + boiler losses + evap + grain absorb) heated it to strike temps, dumped my mash bucket in, recirculated with pump then removed bucket and boiled. Bucket was just slowly hoisted up out of the urn until most of the wort drained then removed.

Equipment used were:
40 Litre Urn
20 Litre bucket with holes drilled and a mesh screen fitted
PVC pipe framework
Curtain rod and handle hoist
2400W Immersion element
Half a metre of rope
Hop Sock

Recipe: 
3Kg Pale malt
1.5Kg Wheat malt
150g Carapils
50g Chocolate malt
50g Dark Crystal malt

17g POR @60
20g Amarillo @15
20g Amarillo @5

US56 

With a 90 minute mash and a 90 minute boil the full job was done and dusted inside of 4 hours (including heating the mash water). Not bad for my first AG... especially achieving just under 80% efficiency!

Here's some pics, sorry there's not more but some attention had to be paid being 'my first time!'











I still have some changes to make with the framework to make life easier but all in all this was a nice easy method achieved in similar time to some of the partials i've done in the past. Nice and easy to clean up and pack away too.

Thanks goes out to all the people who have had input to this thread, particulary Pat, wobbly and AndrewQLD. 

Anyway, time for a brew!

Cheers,

JS


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## jimmysuperlative

Top Darts, JS !!! :super: 

I like the engineering that went into your setup! Ingenious!!

The best part of this thread is seeing brewers make the leap of faith ...and give it a burl ....

I hope to join the ranks of the ALL-IN-ONER'S very shortly. 

Congrats again!


----------



## ausdb

James Squire said:


> Just filled my urn to a volume worked out in Beersmith (final vol + boiler losses + evap + grain absorb) heated it to strike temps, dumped my mash bucket in, recirculated with pump then removed bucket and boiled. Bucket was just slowly hoisted up out of the urn until most of the wort drained then removed.
> 
> Equipment used were:
> 40 Litre Urn
> 20 Litre bucket with holes drilled and a mesh screen fitted
> PVC pipe framework
> Curtain rod and handle hoist



JS your support frame idea is a ripper, makes it all very portable all you really need is access to a power supply and you could almost brew anywhere.

PS I have also sent a few PM's to Flemming lately and he is going to make up some english descriptions of his process as well.

Well done once again


----------



## AndrewQLD

Top stuff JS :super: 

80% efficiency,

under 4 hours

AND all on your first AG attempt.

You can't ask for a better brewday than that. My first AG took me 7 hours :huh: 

Well done, and you have just proven that this method is a great way to start into AG without doling out big dollars on equipement.  

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## wobbly

Good one JS

The recipe looks like the James Squire Golden Ale clone recently posted on this site. My last two brews have basically been this recipe but I am yet to taste test. One of the down sides of bottling I guess.

When you did the boil did you use both the Urn element and the Immersion Element at the same time or just one or the other.

If you used both together how did you "control" the energy input to maintain a "rolling boil" that wasn't very very aggresive?

Like your frame idea and is something I will seriously consider rather than the "sky hook"I was contemplating. I would be interested in what changes you intend making to the frame for future brews.

Will be interested to hear your criteque of your "full boil vol mash" at taste testing time

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## Zizzle

James Squire said:


> POP!  There goes my AG cherry!



Me too. Last night was brew number 11 for me and my first AG.

It was a half size batch of Ross's Schwartzbier using Pat's bag method on my stove top.

It didn't all go to plan. Like I forgot that my crappy hydrometer only goes to 1040. I didn't measure the initial volume. I think I may have zapped the mash too much stopping the conversion after about 35mins.

But it's bubbling away in the fermenter now, so I'm happy.

Thanks to Pat for all the instructions, and MHB for putting together what I guess was a fiddly half batch of grain.











Onward an upward now, better equipment next time.


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## Fingerlickin_B

Zizzle, you got your pots off eBay didn't you? 

That is exactly the same as my 20 quart one (Varun brand)  

Glad to see it worked for your half batch............as it will for my first AG coming soon h34r: 

PZ.


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## Zizzle

Actually that pot is Pat's. I just borrowed it.


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## mimerbryg

Congratulations JS!





Both with your first AG, new system and the nice result.


Kind regards
Flemming


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## James Squire

Thanks for all the support everyone.

Congratulations to you too Zizzle! A few hiccups is nothing to worry about, Im sure the results will be fine. Just the experience of getting your head around AG is the important part!

Ausdb, yep, the plan was to have something thats totally portable and easily packed away. The framework was ironically inspired by the bathroom renovations I've been doing lately which are the exact reason why its taken me awhile to get started on my idea! Plenty of pipe lying around, thought I'd give it a go!

Wobbly, hopefully it'll wind up pretty close to the Golden Ale. I've been brewing a partial version of this recipe for a while now, so this was just upping the Ale malt a bit from that. It's a nice recipe, comes out beautiful in partials so hopefully even better without that extract 'sweetness'.

With the elements I used both together to initially bring to the boil, then once the hot break was acheived I turned the urn off and only used the immersion element. Seemed to work a treat that way! The brewframe only needs some minor changes... the curtain rod i used looked like it was under a lot of strain when winding the bucket out. I need to get a solid bar to use instead as I assume at some stage (probably the most inconvenient time possible) the curtain rod will give in. I'd also consider a better way of standing the frame up. At the moment the pipe is just slotted to sit on the Urn handles, this worked fantastically but perhaps at some stage in the future I might change it to look better...

Cheers again all,

Fingers crossed for a delicious brew,

JS


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## PistolPatch

Ah! James and Zizzle, you got there!

Bet you were wrapped to finally sink your teeth into it James. A few questions for you of course. How was your clarity? How on earth did you manage to do this in 4 hours (did this include cooling and pitching)? And, most importantly, when's the taste test? Your setup looks almost space age. You could put it in your house on display as a modern art sculpture between brew days! Good on you mate :beerbang: 

I knew you might be in for a bit of fun Zizzle when I got your email at 5:45PM saying you had just mashed in. Must have been a long night! That recipe has a wide margin of error so don't worry about being unable to take a hydro reading or your thermometer difficulties - you're still going to get a good beer. Most of the mash work happens early on as well. What I'm trying to work out is how you didn't burn the house down with the bag sitting ON your stove - lol! Did you manage to cool and pitch on Sunday night? If so how long did cooling that much take? Can you get a final volume reading? If so we can probably backtrack a few figures once fermentation has finished. :super: 

Good on you guys,
Pat

P.S. Efficiency on my last 2 lagers has been 72% as opposed to the 81% I was getting on the Schwartz.


----------



## AndrewQLD

PistolPatch said:


> Ah! James and Zizzle, you got there!
> 
> 
> P.S. Efficiency on my last 2 lagers has been 72% as opposed to the 81% I was getting on the Schwartz.



Pat, your lower efficiency could be caused by a ph problem, did you test your mash PH in the Schwartz and in the lagers?
The darker beers are much more forgiving in the ph department because the darker grains will naturally lower the PH of the mash for you.

However the lighter beers don't have that buffer effect and the mash ph will be higher which can affect your efficiency to some degree.

Also the other cause could be the malt itself, I have noticed a 5 point decrease in eff when using Powells pilsner malt campared to powells Ale malt.

But hell 72% eff is still a good efficiency regardless of what malt you use or mash ph you have.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## James Squire

Pat,

Clarity was pretty good, have to make some changes to my pickup tube though because I ended up with some break material through... otherwise it was pretty clear. 

I havn't yet made my chiller so what I did yesterday was... Took two 10 Litre Jerry's rinsed with Iodophor and placed them in my esky, filled esky with 5Kg of ice and some cold water, filled Jerry's with hot wort, closed the lid and walked away. This process took no time at all as the preparation was done during the boil and the only time involved was running the wort into the Jerry's. The Jerry's are now ready to throw into the fermentor and pitch my starter tonight...

Disclaimer: I know this is not good practise but I am confident with my sanitation technique and the time it took to cool was a lot longer than neccessary for effective pasteurisation. I also turned the Jerry's a couple of times to make sure hot contact was made to all surfaces...

Will keep you all informed on the tasting, won't be long. Should be kegged in a fortnight.

Cheers,

JS


----------



## PistolPatch

Have just started playing with pH on my last 4 brews Andrew. On this last one I knocked the PH down to 5.9 in the full volume water which ended up being 5.3 in the mash. The grain I used was Export Pilsner (no idea who makes the malt - lol).

On these last 2 brews, I've also been a little bit more fussy on my syphoning so maybe dropped an extra litre there. Like you say, I'm not worried about the efficiency and it's certainly higher than what I was gettting from my esky. Can't wait to taste your recipe. :chug: 

I was wondering where all that speed came from James. I was hoping you had an amazing secret you were about to tell us - lol. Will look forward to hearing your impressions in a fortnight. Cool!


----------



## halfinch

Howdy Pat,

Just wondering if you could tell me the rough dimensions of the bag you use ???? This method looks great for a beginning all grainer!!!!


Thanks Halfinch.......


----------



## PistolPatch

Hi there Halfinch,

As for the dimensions of the bag, you're best to make one that matches your kettle. If you look at post #72 of this thread, you'll see some pics of my bag. It basically acts the same as a garbage bin liner does for your bin. I'm not too adept at sewing so had a neighbour do it.

The material is 100% Swiss Voile Ivory from Spotlight. I also bought nylon thread to sew it up with and drawstring (Gutterman Poly Thread) from there. Cost of under $15 with a lot of material left over.

I'm working on some easy instructions for this method which might even be ready tomorrow. When done, I'll put a link in this thread so keep your eye out.

Cheers
Pat

Cheers


----------



## halfinch

Thanks Pat ,
Boiler will be 50 litre keg (already made ready to go, (without green ring Tas Chris) just waitng on burner!!) . But might try a few partials in the mean time. Will definitely be reading your instructions..

Top stuff Pat ..


Halfinch.


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

I bought a hop sock from Ross...should do the trick me reckons :super: 

PZ.


----------



## PistolPatch

No worries Halfinch. The 3 ring burners are nice and cheap $35. Another good addition is the adjustable gas regulator hose. Some of the fixed regulator hoses, like on your bbq, don't allow much gas flow.

Hey there Fingerlickin! I did a test run using the hop sock very early in the peice and even with 1.5kg of grain, it was no good. The grain was far too tight. I had several conversations with Ross to see if he could come up with a mash sock that would be suitable for everyone but due to the large range of kettles shapes and sizes, neither of us could come up with a suitable one. It was Ross who actually suggested we make up liners using the material above. I don't know much about partials but am sure the hop sock would be great for these. For full volume brewing in a bag though, you'll have to get your sewing kit out!


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Duzzamadda...I'll be keeping it to 11.5L batches  

Kits remaining for swill :beerbang: 

PZ.


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Oops, just read what you said properly...but I'll still give to sock a go first off  

PZ.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

PistolPatch said:


> Have just started playing with pH on my last 4 brews Andrew. On this last one I knocked the PH down to 5.9 in the full volume water which ended up being 5.3 in the mash.



So PP, if my local water has a pH of 8 ...and I want to bring that down to about 6, what would you suggest I do/use to achieve that drop if I'm using the A.I.O. "grain sock" method (33L) ? 

...citric acid? how much?


----------



## PistolPatch

LOL Finger!

Jimmy, I'm totally inexperienced in pH. It's one of my current learning projects so any advice I can offer should be taken with a grain of salt...

My local water is 6.6 from memory and one level teasppon of citric acid in 42 litres knocked it back to 5.9 which lead to 5.3 in the mash which is pretty close to what we're chasing. You get citric acid from the cooking section of the supermarket - thanks to Ross's wife for that info!

I'm pretty sure you'll be totally buggered without using some pH paper. Ross sells this now on Craftbrewer but buy the big lot as the first time you try, you'll probably take at least ten tests. After this, you will need only 3, even less per brew so one roll will last you forever. A small lot will last no time.

The other thing I've learned from other brewers is it's very easy to over-correct so take your time and make your acid additions small until you get things worked out. This could be another good thing about full volume brewing - easier to adjust pH levels???

All the best Jimmy.


----------



## Adamt

pH = -log(concentration of Hydrogen Ions)

pH = 8 => C(H+) = 3.35*10^-4 gmol/L
pH = 6 => C(H+) = 0.0025 gmol/L

So we need (0.0025 - 3.35*10^-4)*33 = 0.0707gmol H+ to change pH

Now! I reckon citric acid salt is Calcium Citrate, formula Ca3(C5H4O5COOH)2, molecular weight = 498.46g/gmol.

2 mol of H+ released per 1 mol of Calcium Citrate in solution => need 0.0354 gmol of Calcium Citrate

=> 17.6g of Calcium Citrate ("Citric Acid" salt)... theoretically...

Damn I shouldnt have had that coffee.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Adamt said:


> pH = -log(concentration of Hydrogen Ions)
> 
> pH = 8 => C(H+) = 3.35*10^-4 gmol/L
> pH = 6 => C(H+) = 0.0025 gmol/L
> 
> So we need (0.0025 - 3.35*10^-4)*33 = 0.0707gmol H+ to change pH
> 
> Now! I reckon citric acid salt is Calcium Citrate, formula Ca3(C5H4O5COOH)2, molecular weight = 498.46g/gmol.
> 
> 2 mol of H+ released per 1 mol of Calcium Citrate in solution => need 0.0354 gmol of Calcium Citrate
> 
> => 17.6g of Calcium Citrate ("Citric Acid" salt)... theoretically...
> 
> Damn I shouldnt have had that coffee.



17.6g of Calcium Citrate ("Citric Acid" salt)... Sounds spot on Adamt :lol: 
Thanks for the calculations ...I can't believe I actually understood most of it? :blink: 

And thanks PP, I hadn't really considered pH as an issue ...but from what I've read it's fairly important when attempting lighter beers. Good to know


----------



## Guest Lurker

Adamt said:


> pH = -log(concentration of Hydrogen Ions)
> 
> pH = 8 => C(H+) = 3.35*10^-4 gmol/L
> pH = 6 => C(H+) = 0.0025 gmol/L
> 
> So we need (0.0025 - 3.35*10^-4)*33 = 0.0707gmol H+ to change pH
> 
> Now! I reckon citric acid salt is Calcium Citrate, formula Ca3(C5H4O5COOH)2, molecular weight = 498.46g/gmol.
> 
> 2 mol of H+ released per 1 mol of Calcium Citrate in solution => need 0.0354 gmol of Calcium Citrate
> 
> => 17.6g of Calcium Citrate ("Citric Acid" salt)... theoretically...
> 
> Damn I shouldnt have had that coffee.



Yes but your H+ ions are being removed by the alkalinity in the water and any buffering capacity that is present. The amount of citric acid to achieve the same pH change in different waters will be very different, and controlled by what is in the water to start with. What you will notice if you add it gradually is the pH doesnt change much, then suddenly you overcome the buffering capacity and a small amount of acid makes a big difference in pH. I would also be surprised if citric acid from the supermarket is completely anhydrous which might make a difference to your molecular weight. Hopefully your number will be a ballpark starting point anyway.


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

James Squire said:


> 20 Litre bucket with holes drilled and a mesh screen fitted



Hmmm, well that's an idea. 

What sort of mesh did you use?

PZ.


----------



## James Squire

Hi Finger,

I had access to stainless woven mesh but I know that wobbly used some fibreglass fly screen mesh with success too.

Hope this helps,

JS


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Thanks man, 

You mean like the really fine stuff in some coffee plungers? 

What kind of places sell that sort of thing? :huh: 

PZ.


----------



## James Squire

Not sure where to buy the stainless mesh... I was given it.

However the stuff that Wobbly used is available at bunnings.

JS


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

One of my workmates just told me she has some large sterile socks made from woven nylon, used in ink makingsounds similar to the hop sock. 

Ill try cutting up one of those :super: 

PZ.


----------



## darkhorse

FLB

SS wire mesh can be sourced from Melwire in Clayton Victoria (03)9551-2344

or maybe they can refer you to an appropriate local supplier.

But I still like the millions of drilled holes method...

Make sure you charge the battery if its a cordless drill though... might take a while!


----------



## Zizzle

PistolPatch said:


> I knew you might be in for a bit of fun Zizzle when I got your email at 5:45PM saying you had just mashed in. Must have been a long night! That recipe has a wide margin of error so don't worry about being unable to take a hydro reading or your thermometer difficulties - you're still going to get a good beer. Most of the mash work happens early on as well. What I'm trying to work out is how you didn't burn the house down with the bag sitting ON your stove - lol! Did you manage to cool and pitch on Sunday night? If so how long did cooling that much take? Can you get a final volume reading? If so we can probably backtrack a few figures once fermentation has finished. :super:



I think I managed to do mine in about 5 hours too. We had visitors show up to stay that night, so it was bit slap-dash at times. Didn't proof the yeast, but figured that I was over pitching anyway (yeast for 23lts in a 11ltr batch).

The bag was on the stove only for the mash. For the boil it was well off.

I was surprised at how much hop sludge the was in the end, and the texture of it.

Cooled in the lundry sink. Didn't take that long. 25-30mins maybe, pitched and was it bubbling when I got up next morning.


----------



## Coodgee

> So PP, if my local water has a pH of 8 ...and I want to bring that down to about 6, what would you suggest I do/use to achieve that drop if I'm using the A.I.O. "grain sock" method (33L) ?
> 
> ...citric acid? how much?



from my research, which includes an episode of basic brewing radio, it is "better" to use acid than salts to lower ph. the reason for this is you will be adding minerals if you use salt (calcium). Tis may be desirable for a beer that benefits from added mineral content (APAs, IPAs) but many beers do not benefit from added mineral levels. 

The prefered method is to use lactic or phosphoric acid. phosphoric acid is easily sourced from any hydroponics shop. I use about 1-2 ml in 30-40 litres to obtain a ph of 6 for my brewing water. I don't know what this makes my mash ph end up at because I don't have any ph paper for coloured solutions. will get some soon. but if you start off at ph 6, I am led to believe (through no analysis of my own, just what I have read) that this will get me in the ballpark of 5.2-5.4 for the mash ph. 

THis sounds correct for me, because remember ph 5.2 is 3 times as acidic as ph 5.4, so there is a fair room for error in that .2. 

is this complete bullshit? please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## MHB

You can get SS fly screen mesh, a good window company or specialist bug screen fitter can get you some, might even have off-cuts going at a good price.

MHB


----------



## Darren

Coodgee said:


> mineral content (APAs, IPAs) but many beers do not benefit from added mineral levels.
> 
> The prefered method is to use lactic or phosphoric acid. phosphoric acid is easily sourced from any hydroponics shop. I use about 1-2 ml in 30-40 litres to obtain a ph of 6 for my brewing water. I
> is this complete bullshit? please correct me if I am wrong.



Coodgie,

Phosphoric acid from hydrponic shop is probably not food grade and shouldn't go into your beer

cheers

Darren


----------



## PistolPatch

Justin has just written an extremely good post very relevant to this thread. A few times this thread has gone off track from the original aim of simplicity and this is very understandable (and good fun!) for those who have been reading since day one.

For the sake of those who have not read the full thread, I think I can safely say it's time now to acknowledge that this thread has become a discussion of Full Volume Brewing and that this in turn involves two methods - gas and electric.

If you are restricted to an electric source of heating, then I would recommend following James Squires' method of Full Volume Brewing. Wobbly has given it a go already with great results on clarity etc. I'm also going to say that I was VERY attracted by electric brewing when I first entertained the idea of AG. Seemed so simple and controllable and neat etc. Now, I would not recommend it if you have both options. 

I think those who have a gas bottle will be better served by brewing in a bag (BIAB - thanks for the name Screwtop!) due to the lower equipment needs/cost and high simplicity level.

I mention this, not only because of Justin's post A Guide to Starting Out in AG which emphasises simplicity but also to avoid confusing new AG brewers.

Finger asked a question here recently about BIAB. Somehow this has got around to how to get SS mesh. BIAB will NOT work with SS mesh - way too course. SS mesh goes hand in hand though with electric brewing where you have a pump that can recirculate. So...

What I'd love to see is this thread, which has been magnificent, splitting into two Full Volume Brewing threads - one being electric and one being brewing in a bag (gas). I really think this would be of huge value to the forum.

I'm very close to having the BIAB Guide written (more like a book - it has spreadsheets and a pictorial .pdf file - lol!)

James, what do you reckon about coming up with a name for, 'Electric Full Volume Brewing' and separating the two forms? Much of what I've written in the BIAB guide could be duplicated for the electric. I'm certainly happy to help with an electric guide.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Cheers
PP

P.S. Thanks for all the pH info. Excellent. That's one thing you can't search for on AHB - only 2 letters!

P.P.S. Aussie-Claret and Old-Dog have just left after sampling the first 2 BIABS so if anyone wants a second opinion on them send them a PM!


----------



## jimmysuperlative

PP, I can't wait to read your BIAB BIBLE ... this thread has certainly covered some territory, enlightened many of us, and - at least in my case - has been the gentle push I needed to actually start AG brewing.

I reckon that even though many brewers have contributed to this thread, the interest, discussion and experimentation it has generated has largely been inspired by your own enthusiasm ...and willingness to "take one for the team" :lol: ...Thanks PP.


----------



## poppa joe

Perhaps we could have...
BIAB For DUMMIES...Like the microsoft type books...
Cheers
PJ
PP no WAR AND PEACE STYLE..


----------



## James Squire

Great idea Pat,

I'll start thinking on an appropriate name for my method and look at opening a new thread to detail it a bit better now that it has turned from a theory to a practice. 

I think you are spot on that this thread is becoming hard to track through for those who haven't followed from the beginning. The brainstorming has been great, and sincere thanks to all those who have contributed, but it has now developed into a really simple and practical start for those getting into the AG game.

Im dying to see your 'walkthrough' for BIAB too Pat and hopefully I'll find the time soon to get something sorted myself.

Cheers everyone,

JS


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Yeah I'm sorry, I guess I did take it off-track a bit there...but hey, if my slack-arse mate will give me his magical circle-cutting tool tomorrow (was supposed to tonight) it'll be my first AG this weekend and with you guys to thank :super: 

PZ.


----------



## PistolPatch

Donya James! Knew you'd take responsibility for this monster you've started. Not too many threads here that get 200 posts and 5500 reads!

Let me know when you come up with a name and then we better organise a phone date to see if I can be any help to your new thread. I'll probably be of no help and just talk a lot - lol! (You can pinch any writing of mine you like though - lol)

Just finished writing Jimmy a short thank you PM - only took me an hour (lol) so I better go. He deserved such an infliction. Without people like him I, personally, would have zero motivation.

:beer: Jimmy, James and the others!


----------



## MHB

Hows MonoPot?


----------



## wobbly

JS

Willing to contribute what ever I can if required. Like wise you can use any of the stuff I've posted

Cheers

Wobbly


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Done!

I was going to use a similar perforated pot-in-pot method to others here, but the jigsaw cracked my mesh holding ringsarrrgh!

Heres what I did instead: 

Warming to strike temp:




Additions ready to go:



Grain in freebie "hop sock" from a legend at work:



Mash time:



Sparge water heating:



Giving it a good squeeze/wringing out after the dodgy sparge:



The boil with Craftbrewer hop sock:



Where it is now...chilling in the sink with some ice bricks:



Too many people to thank...everyone who has contributed to this thread, and Steve who's recipe I stole, plus the odd grain he helped me out with  

PZ.


----------



## Adamt

This may be completely off topic and I may be drunk, but the second picture looks like a deal and the third picture looks like a franger, lol.


----------



## poppa joe

Giving it a good squeeze/wringing out after the dodgy sparge:


SQEEZE OR NOT TO SQEEZE>>>>>
Been Told not sqeeze...........
ANYONE....
Pj


----------



## Adamt

I've heard heavy squeezing extracts tannins and other crap. Has the same effect as using too hot sparge water.


----------



## poppa joe

Same here ADAMT >>>>
Anyone else can give their oppinions....??????????????
PJ


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Hmm, sounds like a worry...guess I'll see what happens......always give the squeeze when steeping for kits and never had a problem there. 

Time will tell I suppose, but for now mine's just hit the fermenter:




PZ.


----------



## poppa joe

Only done a Couple...FINGERLIKIN....

GET VERY TEMpTED TO SQEEZE>>>>>>
PJ


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

On second thought, it sounds like a bunch of crap to me...steeping, mashing...giving a squeeze just gets the rest out, in fact I think I recall How To Brew suggesting doing it, although maybe I'm just drunk now  

PZ.


----------



## Phrak

Sqeeze it. From what I've been told you won't extract tannins. 
The way I understand it, only too much sparging will extract the extra tannins. And since we're not sparging at all, we don't have that worry.

Squeeze it, you know you want to!


----------



## PistolPatch

Yeah, that's what I reckon Phrak!

OK, have finally written A Guide to All-Grain Brewing in a Bag Hope all those that read it manage to stay awake.

If anyone's brewing a beer style by BIAB that is not listed in that thread could they please post it there and I'll move the details up to Post #2.

Haven't written any credits there as yet (might wait until there are actually some replies first - lol!) but thanks again to all those who have contributed so much here in James' thread.

Brewed a Kilcenny clone last Thursday which I'm going to keg next weekend (10 days from pitching). Will let you know if it ends up tasting OK in such a short time. The full and mid-strenght Schwartz's are still tasting excellent.

Cheers
PP


----------



## Phrak

Jeebus, Pat. That's a mammoth effort!

It'll take me a bit to get through that, but bloody well done!

You can never have too much info for a Guide/FAQ 

Tim.


----------



## PistolPatch

Thanks Tim! Its a little embarrassing posting a guide like that when you've only done about 15 AG's and so presumptuous as to reserve the first 3 posts of the thread you start!

I started the project after being asked by 4 (5?) people, each unknown to the other, to write some sort of guide. This lead me to believe that doing so would have some value for those stepping up to all-grain. The feedback I received prior to posting it reinforced this belief. Now though.

Im currently very worried it may have been a colossal waste of time as there has been no feedback to the actual thread apart from PM's/emails and Fingerlickin's recipe (good on ya mate). Without any feedback to the actual thread, it will pretty much die, no newbees will get to see it and, once again, Ill have taken one for the team!

Since posting the guide, the private response has all been enthusiastic so I think it would be a shame to see it die. To avoid this I'm hoping that once anyone from here has had a glance at the BIAB thread, instead of a PM or email, maybe they can post any comments, good or bad, to the actual thread and give it a little kick-start. Then again, if it dies, it dies...

Personally, I thought the fact that I wrote the entire guide with only about two exclamation marks would be worthy of commentLOL!!!

Thanks again,
Pat


----------



## AndrewQLD

Great work Pat, why don't you ask the Mods if the guide can be pinned in the "important topic" section this will leave it permanently displayed and it won't get lost. 

Top effort.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Millet Man

Phrak said:


> Sqeeze it. From what I've been told you won't extract tannins.
> The way I understand it, only too much sparging will extract the extra tannins. And since we're not sparging at all, we don't have that worry.
> 
> Squeeze it, you know you want to!


Squeezing is fine, that's how a mash filter press works. We do a no sparge mash and the filter press wrings it out to about 20% moisture left in the spent grain.

Cheers, Andrew.


----------



## PistolPatch

Can't believe this Fingerlickin'! Just realised that even though I've got this thread on topic reply notification I still totally missed the fact that you had done a complete bag brew! Sorry about that mate - whoops! Top pics by the way.

Will look forward to hearing the results in what must be about 2 weeks? I know that your original gravity reading went astray but as with Zizzle, if you get a final gravity, we might be able to work backwards to learn a little more.

And, this was your first AG wasn't it? If so, :beer: 

Donya,
Pat


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

PistolPatch said:


> And, this was your first AG wasn't it?



Yep, couldn't help myself  

PZ.


----------



## PistolPatch

AndrewQLD said:


> why don't you ask the Mods if the guide can be pinned in the "important topic" section



I'm too scared to Andrew - think I've been way too audacious as it is!* But heaps of thanks to you. Also, can't wait to taste those 2 pils of yours I've brewed. I know I should wait another 6 weeks but you know I'm going to sneak one of them into the keg early  I also know that people like you inspire pioneers like...

Fingerlickin! People like you, like the old ad says, 'ought to be congratulated!'

Doing your first AG, on a stove, in a bag and a half batch at that, to me, shows a real desire to produce a great beer. I reckon that your example along with Poppa Joe's, Zizzle's and (sure there were 1 or 2 others doing half batches etc?) will certainly help a few others to brew a beer they are wrapped in.

:beerbang: Pat

*Just had a thought. If anyone does think the BIAB guide should be pinned, send Bigd a PM instead of me! Bigd did say he was looking forward to having a read. Sorry Bigd - lol!


----------



## Phrak

Pat, I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of responses in the thread. I deliberately didn't post there because I wanted to keep the thread clean. I think the majority of AHBers would think along the same lines.

Judging purely by the replies and views here and the 250 odd views and 60 odd downloads of your booklet, I'd say that people like what they see.

I, for example, printed out your guide to read on the bus yesterday. I found the guide informative yet concise enough to read and comprehend. I felt there was the perfect balance of detail and length for a brewer of any skill to understand the process. I know it's still work-in-progress, and I am hoping to get some time free to tweak-up your excel spreadsheet a bit 

I have planned this method for my first AG as my very next brew... I've got all the equipment (bar a cutom-built bag - thinking pillow case) and a recipe of a JS Golden Ale clone (thanks ColinW, et all) ready to crack my AG cherry... I just need some bottles free to use after fermentation!

So mate, don't stress about it. I'll send a msg to one of the Mods to try and have the topic pinned.

Keep your chin up! :chug: 
Tim.


----------



## wobbly

PP 

Not to worry

I sort information by starting a thread on "recirculating wort" a while back. There have been something like 59 views but not a "dicky bird" responce so I guess I must have askjed "the stupid question"

Cheers and chin up 

Wobbly


----------



## PistolPatch

Was about to retire from AHB tonight (busy sending frivolous PM's to Bindi and others - we're a bit stupid up here but you probably haven't noticed!) and then saw your post.

Phrak, you're a champion! Go the pillow case - I'm sure no one has done this before so you have to do it! And, if you can automate that time thing in the spreadsheets - how good would that be! (I'm actually desperate for someone to do this!)

As for keeping the thread clean - bugger that! On AHB a non-responded to thread just dies even if it is pinned!

If you have to, even just post a joke to the thread! Like...

I'm a Fairy.
My name is Nuff.
Fairy Nuff!

 PP


----------



## MHB

I have been following this topic with some interest, now for some slightly off the wall thoughts.

If your bag is fine enough you dont need the husks.
You should be able to use very finely milled grist.

Not including the husks removes the risk of tannin extraction (whether you are a squeezer or not)
Very fine grist will increase the extract efficiency

PP
I will donate 1 of finely milled sifted grist if you want to test the theory.

MHB


----------



## poppa joe

PP
Leave the fairy tales to Enid Blyton//
GET BACK TO THE B>I>A>B>
PJ


----------



## PistolPatch

LOL PJ!

MHB, I am trying to finish up on AHB - still haven't had time to reply to MY thread, (maybe tomorrow - lol) and then you go and post something like that!

As you already know, I'll try anything! From what you've written and for us laymen, are you saying that you mean basically mashing flour in a bag? Would love some more info but if I don't reply tonight, forgive me.

Cheers
PP

Also, wouldn't supplying the above be a PITA for retailers?


----------



## goatherder

MHB said:


> I have been following this topic with some interest, now for some slightly off the wall thoughts.
> 
> If your bag is fine enough you dont need the husks.
> You should be able to use very finely milled grist.
> 
> Not including the husks removes the risk of tannin extraction (whether you are a squeezer or not)
> Very fine grist will increase the extract efficiency
> 
> PP
> I will donate 1 of finely milled sifted grist if you want to test the theory.
> 
> MHB



I like your out of the box thinking here MHB.

This experiment would be testing the assumption that husks don't contribute to the flavour profile of the beer.

Do you have any thoughts on this?


----------



## PistolPatch

sjc just sent me a very interesting link re lipids. Seems that it is not a problem with BIAB. The articel is worth a read for those doing the electric full volume brewing though as it talks about some problems with over-recirculating the wort. This section starts about half way down the page. Here's the link Lipids, Recirculating etc

Also, thanks a million to you guys for your posts to the BIAB guide thread! Bloody good of you and I see it has now been pinned - was that you Tim?. Can't wait to see what Adamt comes up with tonight!

Cheers
PP


----------



## Phrak

PistolPatch said:


> ...I see it has now been pinned - was that you Tim?


Yup.  Doc replied to my PM this morning saying he'd pinned it. I told you we still cared!  
(haven't had a chance to play with the spreadsheet yet. hopefully have some free time tomorrow.

Tim.


----------



## James Squire

Hi all,

My second All in One brew (also second AG) went down yesterday. 

Everything went well again. Only (if you can call it only) 70% efficiency though this time. That was to be expected though as it was AndrewQLD's (many thanks mate) 'Coopers Pale Ale clone' using mainly Pils malt. Lighter style - lower efficiency, I believe that can be common. 

Besides that, another enjoyable morning was had brewing with this method. So simple and so enjoyable. To make the day even better I found time to keg up my first All in One attempt during the boil which tasted delicious going into the keg and will hopefully sneak a carbonated taste test tonight. The results are coming wobbly!

Cheers for now,

JS


----------



## AndrewQLD

Hi JS,
70% efficiency must really suck :blink: I know some brewers would love to get that high :lol: . Anyway good effort again hope the CPA is good, I have one in the fermenter as we speak.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## PistolPatch

Where did all that time go? First taste test tonight - this is exciitng stuff! Can't wait to hear the results.

I got the same efficiency on the pale grain as well (71 I think) as compared to 81 on the black beer. Mind you, with one of the recent threads here I am now confused on efficiency mainly because I still haven't read AndrewQLD's 4 page PM on it as yet - lol! Will probably have a crack at it tonight. Cheers Andrew. Just racking my second one of your pilsners now 

Phrak: Thanks mate. And even more thanks to you and Adam for your exquisite spreadsheet work.

James, that's enough carbonating. Go and taste the beer NOW!


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Kegged my Boddingtons clone this arvo :beerbang: 

I put a little glass of it in the fridge and tasted once cold. 

Very light on body (and alcohol by the taste of it). Yeah, it's supposed to be, but this seemed a lot lighter than the genuine article. 

Colour was pretty much on the money, which is good. 

Figure my efficiency was down due to having too tight a grain/bag fit...working on a better method for next time. 

Good news is the taste, although not right, has no offensive or conflicting qualities whatsoever so even if it turns out super-light I can save it for those hot summer days coming up :chug: 

PZ.


----------



## PistolPatch

Finger, you've done a great job mate. It's very helpful when brewers post what things they could have improved on. I agree that the tight packed bag would be a little bit of a prob.

Please post your taste tests back here and to the BIAB thread as/if you notice any differences in flavour. I'm sure James and all the others would appreciate any feedback.

Nothing wrong with a light beer mate. I'm actually quite wrapped at the time of writing as I've just poured myself that Kilcenny clone. I didn't realise until now that it's only 3% - perfect! It's actually a top beer for those who are used to mainstream on tap beers but it has a hundredfold more of everything.

I first tasted it on Sunday before arriving at Ross's and I found it to be an easy drinking beer but had a million distractions on this first taste. Then I got to Ross's where everyone had been drinking beers, many of which were at high bitterness and alcohol levels, for several hours. I poured the guys a beer and received little comment....

Screwtop, one of the few that was driving, had some very good comments though. I was a bit mystified at the lack of feedback until I had a few of the beers that they had been drinking. I went back to the Kilkenny and couldn't taste it at all lol!

Most of these guys love full-flavoured and usually very bitter beers. They all, from what I gathered, loved both the mid-strength and full-strength BIAB black beers (Schwartz). As Jye said after tasting the BIAB Schwartz, "Well there's obviously nothing wrong with the brewing method, it's just the recipe (meaning the Kilcenny)."

Personally, I'm absolutely wrapped now in this Kilcenny clone. This is a lovely 3% beer that was hammered brewing-wise. It has full-body, very low bitterness level and a great amount of complexity. I'll test it out on my beer-swilling neighbours over the next week and let you know what they think as well. I don't really care but it would be nice to have an easy brew that both the nieghbours and I enjoy. I'll be telling them it's 5% though as these are the sort of guys that 'know,' a beer is crap if it's 3%.

Sorry about the long post but you're used to it by now and beer reviews are always best done live 

Yum!


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

PistolPatch said:


> Finger...blah, blah...Sorry about the long post but you're used to it by now and beer reviews are always best done live
> 
> Yum!



Sorry about the edited quote Pat...couldn't help myself  

I'll post for sure when drinking and top marks to you and everyone else involved in this/these threads, as without you guys I'd be years off AG (damn, that there 50L vessel looks like it'd make a fine boiler...oh no...now I'm f*cked :lol: )!
:beer: 

PZ.


----------



## James Squire

The results are in on the first taste of the 'All in one' brew...

It was delicious! Far and away the best beer that I have brewed. I was having an attempt at a clone recipe for the James Squire Golden Ale, a few tweaks on ColinW's recipe (thanks mate!), and it was remarkably close to the mark. Much, much closer than I had ever gotten when trying to clone using partial recipes. I am very chuffed! No bad flavours, no lack of maltiness or body, just straight up an awesome beer!

Now I know that this method is not only very enjoyable to brew with but also produces incredibly tasty results. :beer: 

Cheers all for the support in getting this idea off the ground, especially thanks to Pat as without his interest and encouragement the thread would never have taken off. Sincere thanks mate.

Oh and if there's any brewers reading this that are aspiring to get into All Grain brewing, get stuck into it guys! This method can be done easily on the cheap, with minimal equipment, minimal space and produce fantastic results. It's not all as daunting as it sounds, give it a go. If anyone needs help or advice on getting started just flick me a PM, Im happy to help.

Cheers for now, :beerbang: 

JS


----------



## PistolPatch

Sixteen days from pitching and drinking well. James, you've got to be bloody happy with that! Good on you mate. And, thanks as well - looks like we both scored a nice way of brewing from your thread.

So who's up next? Wobbly, Finger, Poppa? I can't remember.

Really pleased to hear the result James. Don't drink it all at once :beer:


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

The plan was to let mine settle in the keg for a week before chilling, but as it came out of the fermenter crystal clear I'll probably just put it in the fridge tonight...start drinking on the weekend :chug: 

PZ.


----------



## Zizzle

Tasted mine after a week in the bottle.

Bloody great. Thanks again Pat.

Now what am I going to do with all this K&K stuff I have bottled?


----------



## Coodgee

PP, I found all brewers very polite about each others beers at Ross's Fathers Day bash (wee stu meet and greet). If you were damned by faint praise it must have only been due to the taste buds of the brewers being numbed by Jye's APA. 

I remember you taking me out to the outdoors fridge later in the evening, like a dope dealer ushering me into a dark alley for a hit, serving me up some schwartzbeer, looking me straight in the eye and saying "whattayathinkofthat eh young fella?"

It was a bloody nice beer with some great malt flavour. fantastic.


----------



## PistolPatch

Another clear beer - cool! Look forward to the taste test Finger - tonight maybe?

Congratulations Zizzle on the first bottled BIAB :beer: 

Coogee - Yeah I couldn't taste that Kilcenny after those other beers but I the Scwhartz still tasted as good as ever. I've got the flu so haven't posted a taste test on the Kilcenny to the BIAB thread yet. Want my neighbours and a few others to have a taste as well first. I love it though.

I also might link the beers that James and Wobbly have done with the electric in the BIAB thread if Phrak tells me how. If they worked for the electric, they should work for the bag as well and vice versa. Should increase our testing phase a bit quicker.

All the best,
Pat


----------



## Jye

PistolPatch said:


> Most of these guys love full-flavoured and usually very bitter beers. They all, from what I gathered, loved both the mid-strength and full-strength BIAB black beers (Schwartz). As Jye said after tasting the BIAB Schwartz, "Well there's obviously nothing wrong with the brewing method, it's just the recipe (meaning the Kilcenny)."





Coodgee said:


> PP, I found all brewers very polite about each others beers at Ross's Fathers Day bash (wee stu meet and greet). If you were damned by faint praise it must have only been due to the taste buds of the brewers being numbed by Jye's APA.



Yep.... needs more hops


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

As requested by Pat, this post will be mirrored in both appropriate threads  

My BIAB Boddingtons clone copped the taste test this arvo...

Yep, efficiency was obviously down (due the using a small bag), but all seems good. 

I'm very happy with the method and its results...next one with a correctly sized bag should make a great beer!

Thanks to all those involved...my first AG may be a light one, but still quite drinkable. 

Recipe seems good and not at fault when it comes to the watery beer...I blame the small bag.........don't be put off by my results people...this method will make good beer :super: 

PZ.


----------



## PistolPatch

Will do a BIAB for you Jye at 175 IBUs - something you'll be able to swill down after any of your beers - lol.

Good on you Finger. Glad to hear that the beer tastes great even though it's turned out light. Won't write any more now - too crook from the flu but great to hear your feedback mate.

Cheers,
Pat

P.S. Didn't mean that anyone doing a taste test should post their results to both threads but who cares - lol! I was just going to mirror any electric posts to the BIAB thread now that Phrak has showed me how  so that people might be able to have a wider choice of recipes.


----------



## jimmysuperlative

I did it! I BIAB'ed !!  

Followed colinw's Amarillo APA recipe ...slightly greater hop additions.

Used the BIAB excel checklist pretty much unchanged ...

Almost 5 hours from start to flameout ...smooth, easy, watch the footy sort of day ...extended boil to get volume down, but luckily I saw it coming and could hold back the aroma hop additions.

What a top way to make beer! 

THEN...shite hit the fan! Hadn't really thought enough about siphoning hot wort into "no chill" cube!

All I had to work with was a length of clear hose ...no tap on kettle, no auto siphon, very basic! Anyway, I managed to get most of the wort into my storage vessel - but, there will be a nervous wait to see if that final 5 minutes of the process doesn't cause mucho havoc.

Final Analysis: BIAB Method ... 11 out of 10 for ease and accessibility

My post-boil procedures ... 1 out 10 (Hope I haven't farked it up :angry: )

Thanks to all the contributors of the BIAB and AIO threads ...especially PP. 

If you're thinking about trying it for yourself ... Jump in and HAVE A BASH at a BIAB!!!!!!! (but, get an auto-siphon first) :lol: h34r:


----------



## PistolPatch

LOL Jimmy! Glad you enjoyed it.

I'm not too sure what the solution is if you have to syphon the hot wort as the auto-syphon will bend - been there, done that :huh: Maybe a ss dip tube or copper tube to use as a racking cane next time?

What sort of kettle did you use? Be good to fine tune the initial volume figure I gave in the guide for kettles that look like kegs as I sort of guessed it!

How many beers did you celebrate with?

Top stuff Jimmy,
Pat


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

BIAB Disaster...  






As I added the second bag of grain the keggel gave a couple of rummbles and burps I reached for the paddle and gentley stired and could see grains on the other side of the bag.. So maybe with a nasa burner We need to get the water hot first then add the bag with the grain already in that... I dont know ... I will take it as a lesson , order grain again and have another crack next weekend... I was not quite ready but wanted to get one under my belt...So this week I will make sure I am better setup and more ready .... 
Blast 
damm 
bugger &*^[email protected] & *%$$ mutter mutter ....

I'll be out the back by the pool with a jug of stout for the rest of the day 

:beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

Oh Ned - spewing!

I suppose that's one question answered definitively. Just sorry it had to happen on your first bash especially living so far away. 

Maybe it's, as you say, only with the NASA as I haven't had any scorching even. Mind you from now on I'll use a cake stand or something to keep the bag off the bottom. Agh! I'll send an email to Adam as he's using a NASA as well - hopefully not right now!

Let me know if you need any more material too. What a bastard!

Hope the stout is going down quickly and well. We all owe you a few beers.

:beer: Pat


----------



## Adamt

Nah I don't think I'll be burning anything today lol. Woke up with a huge headache this morning, and $200 extra in my wallet, supposedly I was at the casino and I won pretty big. Not a freeking clue how I got into the casino, I must have been pretty tanked haha.

I've been lazy and havent even made my bag yet, was going to buy material today but I'm not really in teh shopping mood! Will keep that in mind though, keep the bloody bag off the bottom of the pot!


----------



## jimmysuperlative

FNQ ............?

Don't know what to say, Mate? Thanks for taking one for the team!

PP ...started with 40L had 37L after removing bag and returning extra collected from draining.
Boiled in a 15gal aluminium stockpot ...reduced to 26L after 90mins. I gave it another 10-15 mins..

But, yeah, the kettle to the cube part really stuffed me!

I see my options as being:

1. fit tap to kettle
2. use keggle which i had fitted out as mash tun
3. make and use a chiller
4. let wort cool in covered kettle ...transfer directly to fermenter etc

I'm going to pitch a US-56 yeast on my APA this arvo ...hopefully, I'll get away with it ...if I don't, at least I'll know why!! <_<


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Man FNQ, that truly sucks the big one  

I was actually thinking about that potential problem the other day. 

My solution is to add a drawstring when making the bag and have the wall of the bag set to a height slightly shorter than your brewing vessel. 

This way when the drawstring is tightened and tied off the bag doesn't touch the bottom (it would obviosly be more secure if used with a vessel that is lipped at the top). 

Maybe try making your next bag this way? 

As for the cake stand, that will still transfer heat from the base to the grain, so maybe not the most "efficient" idea...but PP, that was my first idea...just couldn't stop thinking about a fully suspended bag though :chug: 

Maybe this design method should be included somewhere in the BIAB tutorial so as to avoid future distasters like this one? :blink: 

PZ.

***...spelling edit...sure I missed some though...lol...***


----------



## PistolPatch

Howdy Finger!

I'm just in the process of moving your BIAB beer up the list in the BIAB thread 

I've also placed a warning in the thread re the burning bag.

Regarding suspension of the bag. If you suspend it as suggested, it will be harder to do agitations and I think will cause more problems than it's worth.

I still reckon go the cake stand. The heat will dissipate almost immediately into the water/liquor so I can't see any chance of it burning. FNQ's kettle has a concave bottom. This with the NASA would have concentrated the heat a hell of a lot on reflection.

Also on reflection, I suppose a cake stand is going to be a little awkward in a kettle with concave bottom? Any other ideas?

BTW, how's your Boddington's clone tasting now?

Cheers
Pat


----------



## Adamt

Well, I've been thinking today. I've decided I'm going to be cheap, VERY cheap!

My brew bag will literally be one of those linen shopping bags you can get at shops. All I will do is secure the bag by tieing the handles of the bag on the handles of the pot. The handles will make it easy to remove, and easy to hang somewhere to drain!

I will finally be brewing this week, hopefully!


----------



## PistolPatch

Come on Adam - brew tomorrow! What better way to spend your birthday than doing your first AG?

I love your shopping bag idea! I also can't see any problems with it apart from the fact that it may take a little longer to drain. Can't wait to hear how this goes.

Nice present from the casino too - lol. Well done mate!


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

PistolPatch said:


> BTW, how's your Boddington's clone tasting now?



More and more like hopped water as I drink it alongside other beers :lol: 

My thinking is that not only did I suffer from bad efficiency, but that the recipe I "copied" may be a little light on the grain bill. 

Still gives very good indications of what is to come and I was going to try it again with more grain today but the good HBS is closed on Sunday, which of course I forgot about until I drove up the the window...luckily I was on that side of town doing other things already :lol: 

I don't see why the suspended method makes it a problem...just stir with a spoon :beer: 

PZ.


----------



## PistolPatch

LOL Finger!

I reckon you are right on the grain bill. It is very light. If you reckon it's tasting a bit underwhelming maybe I should delete that brew from the 'Successful BIAB' list and wait until you do it the next time? PM me if you think that's a good idea.

You're probably right on the suspended bag though it wouldn't work for my pot as I wouldn't be able to get the drawstring tight enough around the lip etc - it would just come off. I also like being able to jiggle my masher up and down without worrying about things collapsing.

Mind you, I've had full heat on my bag many times before with no worries so maybe it is just the concentration of the NASA flame plus the concave shape?

Cheers
Pat


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

PM sent as requested :beer: 

PZ.


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Thanks guys ... I won't be put off..

PP Thanks for the call , Misses & I slipped up to Daintree in the boat for late lunch and a few beers to drown my disapointment...

I had a drawstring in the top but allowed for a loose fit in the kettle... 
I still have the other half of the material thanks Pat.. 


Got to do reroof today .... Whoops Now
Will do order tonight ... 

:beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

Howdy Wemba-wemba! (Aboriginal for Bunyip)

Had to call the other day to make sure you hadn't thrown yourself from a third tier into a Coopers tin.

Glad to see that you won't be put off and I know your first AG beer will taste better now that you have taken one for the team. All my beers taste great! 

Make sure you take plenty of pics and you better start a new thread the day the first AG is ever done in the Daintree!

All the best,
Pat


----------



## poppa joe

Glad to see PP taking my tips (cake stand)////
My cake stand is like a round perforated lid with legs (ss)..not the usual wire ones....(1.00 at Vinnies)
I used it in an electric kettle covers the element....bucket on top bag in the bucket....
Worked OK ... 
FOR MY FIRST BIAB HALF BATCH ...BUBBLING AWAY ..........
Dont ask for recipe as it is a SECRET......
Dont ask for effiecency it is a secret...
All other INFO is a secret.....
Gunna sell my recipe to replace V>B>
Now to wait and see....
PJ


----------



## Phrak

> All other INFO is a secret.....


PJ - in onther words, you can't remember what you put in it?


----------



## poppa joe

NO PHRAK... <_< 
I have Singo negotiating with my Manager as we type....  
PJ


----------



## PistolPatch

LOL Poppa.

Congratulations as well on your first AG which sounds like a hybrid between electric and BIAB. Hope all went well and easily.

:beer: 
Pat


----------



## poppa joe

PP..
Bubbling away...But i think i overhopped....Tastes a bit different..But maybe i am not used to what beer tastes like....
PJ


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Probably better places I could have posted this question??? ...its sort of related...

My BIAB Amarillo APA looks to have "finished" at about 1.022 - 1.023 ...its been steady for three days. I had hoped it would have kicked on when I racked it ...

I've included a cut and paste from beersmith of my grains and gravity results to date. Obviously I've got concerns about the high FG. I was aiming for around 1.012

I full mashed for 90mins @ 67C and no-chilled until pitching yeast at 20C.
Primary ferment was 8days at 18C (good krausen and airlock activity for 4-5days)

Beer tastes good out of fermenter (not sweet) so I'm happy to go ahead and keg it. What I'd like is some advice on whether to leave it and see if the gravity drops further, pitch new yeast, or keg and drink?

What are your thoughts? Anyone?

*Grain Bill*

2.50 kg JW Traditional Ale (5.5 SRM) 
2.00 kg JW Export Pils (3.0 SRM)
0.50 kg Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)
0.15 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) 
0.10 kg Carafoam (2.0 SRM)

*Beer Profile*

Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.050 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.022 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.4 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 3.6 % 
Est Color: 10.6 SRM


----------



## Stuster

Does look a bit high, jimmy. :unsure: Recipe doesn't look like it should finish anything like that high, and mash temp looks standard. What yeast did you use?


----------



## AndrewQLD

I would rouse the yeast back into suspension by rocking the fermenter back and forth and in a circular motion. It's not uncommon for highly flocculating yeasts to clump and fall to the bottom of the fermenter slowing or even stopping fermentation completly.

One of my favourite yeasts, WLP007 Dry English Ale is very prone to this and a good rousing usually gets it back up and running.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## jimmysuperlative

Thanks for the responses ...

Stuster, of course, I should have mentioned I used Safale US-56.

Andrew, because I've racked already I don't think there will be enough yeast in suspension to rouse and fire up?

...I' ll give it it a go anyway. Thanks again!


----------



## jimmysuperlative

jimmysuperlative said:


> Thanks for the responses ...
> 
> Stuster, of course, I should have mentioned I used Safale US-56.
> 
> Andrew, because I've racked already I don't think there will be enough yeast in suspension to rouse and fire up?
> 
> ...I' ll give it it a go anyway. Thanks again!




*BEST THING I'VE EVER DONE ...* was to check my refractometer readings against my old hydrometer.

I think I need a lesson in reading refractometers because my FG dropped 12 points when I measured a sample with the hydrometer. :super: 

...I rechecked the result using another old hydrometer and got the same 1.010 reading!!!! Wahoo!!!!!

I am now about to keg my first ever BIAB ...and then I will research refractometers and how to use them properly??? h34r: 

God knows what my "true" readings were for starting gravity and gravity into boiler etc ...I thought the instructions said to simply multiply the refrac reading by 4 ...so my refrac reads 5.7 which I multiply to get 22.8 which I thought translated to 1.023 ?? Where did I stuff up?


----------



## PistolPatch

Top post Jimmy.

I saw your problem at 3 o'clock this morning and wanted to reply immediately but ran out of time. I also wanted to check your posts first to see if you actually had a refractometer.

I also had 3 'imaginary' stuck ferments with my refractometer - lol! To me it was inexplicable. What I did was actually kegged anyway because my wort had no sweet taste at all. Common sense told me it was done.

I've also been unable to find an informative post on how to use your refractometer with fermenting or fermented beer. I'll ask Rossco if he can dig something up.

Cheers
Pat


----------



## jimmysuperlative

PistolPatch said:


> I also had 3 'imaginary' stuck ferments with my refractometer - lol! To me it was inexplicable. What I did was actually kegged anyway because my wort had no sweet taste at all. Common sense told me it was done.



Mate, it got to a stage where I was taking samples of brews I currently have on tap, leaving them go warm and flat ...just to test their gravity with the refractometer :blink: 

...after three unchanged readings from three different beers I nearly came to the conclusion that all my brews were "underdone" and sweet  

It wasn't till I started "testing" some commercial beer (Pilsner Urquell -hic- to be exact) and found the refrac unchanged, that I guessed something might be up :lol: 

Never been so glad to have stuffed up!!


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

My BIAB attempt was botched (and well documented in either this or the other thread) due to a bag that was from the start quite obviously too small, but I had to try it anyway. 

The equipment has now been updated at a cost of under $10. 

Tonight would have been a great chance to brew up and take some pics of it all in action, but alas all my fermenters are in use…and I only have $14 in the bank until Thursday :lol: 

Well, here are some self-explanatory pics (in no particular order) of the gear anyway:

















Oh, and what would a kettle be without……beerstone! :super: 




PZ.


----------



## PistolPatch

Finger, you have done a superb job there. Bloody stunning mate :beer:


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Great work fingerlickin: thats the go for sure... 

:beer:


----------



## James Squire

Thats a top job Finger! Very swish mate! Good to see another person brewing this way.

Only one note though, as a 'bucket in urn' brewer myself, I advise you to think carefully about a lifting method for this setup. The mash pot will become VERY heavy and awkward to remove. Not good for the back! However a simple pulley system of sorts will work a treat.

Good luck.

JS


----------



## James Squire

Hi guys,

As requested by PistolPatch via email here's a quick update on how my "All in one" brews have been drinking....

1st brew - clone recipe for JS Golden Ale. 

Keg emptied! This was a sensational drop indeed! Much better than the commercial version. In every way possible this was an outstanding beer, made me extremely proud to have brewed it!

2nd brew - couldn't help it... same recipe but with small difference (aroma hops changed from dry hopped to flame out addition)

Keg drinking very well at the moment. Very similar to the first brew only it took less time for the greeness to disapear due to not dry hopping. 

3rd brew - AndrewQLD's clone recipe for Coopers Pale Ale

Bottled this 4 weeks ago and cracked the first bottle last night. Another big success! Very clean, perfectly clear brew. Slightly more esters than the Coopers version despite using a reculture of their yeast but still very similar. This perhaps needs some more time in the bottle to condition and it'll be perfect for the upcoming hot summer afternoons.

4th brew - Ba$tard Aussie Ale-Lager thingy 

Brewed this at the start of the week (primary ferment ATM) and was formulated to get rid the remainder of my NZ Hallertau and Cluster hops. I also tried to make it something interesting that my mates could get into. It's basically all Pils malt with a little wheat, Hallertau at 60mins and flameout and Cluster at 15mins. A good light coloured Ale at around 28IBU's, ready to keg up for the hot months.

Basically I am yet to find a single problem with brewing using this method and I believe I will most likely continue brewing like this for a long time. The results are very very pleasing.

Good luck brewers,

Cheers,

JS


----------



## FNQ Bunyip

Good to hear JS.. 

:beer:


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Ok, its time for me to step up and do some full size batches. 

My plan is to use a 50L stainless steel vessel and boil using an electric element like this:






Now, as I wont be using a burner Ill have trouble keeping the mash temp up. 

My thoughts are that if I insulate the vessel Ill be fine and wont have to add any extra heat to keep the mash going. 

BUT, what to wrap it with? Obviously the heat from boiling would melt Styrofoamand other ideas?

PZ. 

p.s. great work everyone, this method is drawing so many people into AG...even me the "I'll never have the $, time, etc) :super:


----------



## razz

How about something that you can quickly remove before the boil like a camping mat ?


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

razz said:


> How about something that you can quickly remove before the boil like a camping mat ?



With velcro strips...perfect idea Razz!  

PZ.


----------



## Steve

Fingerlickin_B said:


> razz said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about something that you can quickly remove before the boil like a camping mat ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With velcro strips...perfect idea Razz!
> 
> PZ.
Click to expand...



or ocky straps?


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Steve said:


> Fingerlickin_B said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> razz said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about something that you can quickly remove before the boil like a camping mat ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With velcro strips...perfect idea Razz!
> 
> PZ.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> or ocky straps?
Click to expand...


I'm very lazy, so that's probably what I'll end up doing Steve :lol: 

PZ.


----------



## razz

Not my idea, I think someone on here put up a photo using blue camping mat. About 10-15 mm thick, suppose to work very well.  
Just remembered, the bloke who built a conical out of 20lt buckets and a large funnel. His name escapes me.


----------



## Justin

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Ok, its time for me to step up and do some full size batches.
> 
> My plan is to use a 50L stainless steel vessel and boil using an electric element like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, as I wont be using a burner Ill have trouble keeping the mash temp up.
> My thoughts are that if I insulate the vessel Ill be fine and wont have to add any extra heat to keep the mash going.
> BUT, what to wrap it with? Obviously the heat from boiling would melt Styrofoamand other ideas?
> PZ.
> p.s. great work everyone, this method is drawing so many people into AG...even me the "I'll never have the $, time, etc) :super:



What's wrong with maintaining the temp of your mash with your hand held element? Sure a bit of insulation wont go astray but couldn't you just pull the grain bag asside and stick in your stick of power with a bit of stirring. I do this every brew (but I do use a conventional mash tun, but I can't see your set up having much of a problem). Am I missing something?

Cheers,, Justin


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Justin said:


> couldn't you just pull the grain bag asside and stick in your stick of power with a bit of stirring.



Not really, as I'm contemplating using a pot-in-pot like I do on a smaller scale already...plus pulling the bag aside enough to do that would be nearly impossible (as I'm sure all the BIAB'ers on here would attest to). 

Thanks for the input though, it is all very much appreciated :beer: 

PZ.


----------



## James Squire

Nope, not missing anything Justin.

Good advice. That will work fine Finger. Even with the bucket in bucket setup. There will be enough water with the grain (if you mash in full volume) that you can use the element to stir the grain from time to time to raise the temp. Just remember not to pull the element out whilst its switched on and to make sure you keep the element moving when it is in the grain.


Good luck and keep us informed.

Cheers,

JS

Edit- Extra advice.


----------



## Justin

Fingerlickin_B said:


> Justin said:
> 
> 
> 
> couldn't you just pull the grain bag asside and stick in your stick of power with a bit of stirring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, as I'm contemplating using a pot-in-pot like I do on a smaller scale already...plus pulling the bag aside enough to do that would be nearly impossible (as I'm sure all the BIAB'ers on here would attest to).
> 
> Thanks for the input though, it is all very much appreciated :beer:
> 
> PZ.
Click to expand...


In that case you can just stick the element straight in the mash and stir. Anyway, just an idea as that's what I do (I love the hand held elements, did an entire brew last night with one). I'm sure you'll get it sorted.

Here are some pics from my Classic American Pils/cream ale last night. This is apartment brewing as my full rig is in storage. It ran incredibly smoothy and I was quitely pleased with minimal gear. While not BIAB it's pretty low key anyway.

Getting ready for kick off






Mash resting and getting ready for the sparge:





My HLT:





And the boil:


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Ok, I'm sold on it....thanks guys :beer: 

Still might insulate, I can't help myself h34r: 

PZ.


----------



## therook

Justin,

How big is your Pot?

rook


----------



## PistolPatch

Finger, I agree with Justin and Sqyre. Forget the insulation for now - it'll only cause you problems. It might even melt! Just stir the mash up (no need to pull bag aside) with your element.

The first 20 minutes of the mash is the most important. If I'm mashing at 66 for 90 minutes I'll only need to give the pot on e burst of heat to maintain temp. A thick-bottomed pot maintains its heat well.

Zizzle's just done a BIAB with an element too. Have a look here

Good to see you going full batch.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Justin

therook said:


> Justin,
> 
> How big is your Pot?
> 
> rook



19L mate to the brim, that's got about 17L in it boiling ($20 from Big W) it was a replacement for my other 20L pot that got cut up to go in my Dad's smoker h34r: . I was aiming for a 15L post boil batch size (I'm happy with that size at the moment as there is only me drinking it and I'm trying a few different styles atm).

I was pushing the boundaries with the boil volume though. I actually ended up with more volume from my sparge (aiming for 17.7L preboil-that's what I was expecting from my two batch sparges). But I ended up with a few extra litres (so I guess the kitchen kettle isn't a very accurate measure of 2L, I couldn't find the measuring jug  ).

As the boil progressed and some of the wort boiled off I added the extra few litres of sparged wort that wouldn't fit in the pot. It only took me maybe 20mins of boiling to get the extra space I needed to get the rest of the wort in there. Plus the hot break and foam was well and truely done. My efficiency was up too (aimed for a conservative 70% but got closer to 85% as a rough preboil estimate) so I ended up with more than I planned. Added an extra 2L of cooled boiled water to the fermenter. With careful placement of the element in the pot you can minimise the violent boil jumping out the side-a nice back up was the fact I boiled in the laundry sink. A pretty good ghetto brew.

It was a good night, I had a heap of fun actually jimmying up this system and squeezing a brew out after work. House was empty to I got into it.

Just to go with PistolPatchs comment, I don't think you'll see too much heat loss over the hour Fingerlickin. It may only need a short burst with the element.

Cheers, Justin


----------



## therook

Thanks justin, so my next question is would a 60 litre pot be able to do a double brew ( 2 x 23 litre )?

rook


----------



## Justin

therook said:


> Thanks justin, so my next question is would a 60 litre pot be able to do a double brew ( 2 x 23 litre )?
> 
> rook



It should be. For a 46L batch (2X23L) @ say 15% evapouration rate you're looking around 54L preboil, give or take some. At 10% boil off you have even more head space.

I'd say thats doable, but it might be a little tight. Just need to pay attention and keep a spray bottle of water handy-you can boil over anything if your not careful :blink:  . It's good to have good heat control if you're doing tight boils (ie. gas would be better than a fixed wattage element), just so if needed you can tone the boil down a little if it gets too exciting or your nerves wont hold out.

I think most people seem to grab the 80L pots just for the extra comfort factor as they aren't much more expensive than the 60L. But you should be able to do it fine.


----------



## AndrewQLD

Justin is spot on in the above post, 80lt would be the safer option. Boilovers are messy and dangerous and can happen in an instant.
Also, it is not often you hear of a brewer downsizing their pots there're usually upsizing to as big as they can get.

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Well I kegged my latest effort yesterday and put a glass of it in the fridge to cool, tasted it later in the day. 

Yet another watery failure! :angry: 

Went to the HBS for more grain3kg of it this time. 
2kg Munich & 1kg Pilsener for an 11 litre batch. 

Wish me luck :lol: 

PZ.


----------



## PistolPatch

Finger, we need to get you sorted mate. I'm trying to find how many kgs you used on your last batch? 2.5 - 3kg would be just about right.

I'm thinking that you may have a dodgy thermometer and that it's reading high. Don't brew again until you can check your thermometer against another at mash temp.

I can't see anything you've done wrong. A big pot will make things easier as you won't have to sparge either.

Mmmmm. Once you get things going right, you might be able to do a high octane brew and top those watery buggers up.

Spot ya,
Pat


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

PistolPatch said:


> Finger, we need to get you sorted mate. I'm trying to find how many kgs you used on your last batch? 2.5 - 3kg would be just about right.
> 
> I'm thinking that you may have a dodgy thermometer and that it's reading high. Don't brew again until you can check your thermometer against another at mash temp.
> 
> I can't see anything you've done wrong. A big pot will make things easier as you won't have to sparge either.
> 
> Mmmmm. Once you get things going right, you might be able to do a high octane brew and top those watery buggers up.
> 
> Spot ya,
> Pat



Yeah good idea Pat, tonight I'll be testing my thermometer with ice and boiling water. 

This time I'll be doing things a bit differently too B) 
3kg of grain, 
16 litres of water,
Expected losses of 3L to mash and 2L to boil leaving me with 11L of undiluted wort, 
NO SPARGE. 

You know how I lost my sample tube? Well now I can't even find the hydrometer! :lol: 

Man, if the thermometer is out then all should be ok and this one will work h34r: 

PZ.


----------



## Fingerlickin_B

Just picked up a dial faced stick thermometer from Big W with a clearly marked 66deg for $6.78...bargain  

I'll check it reads correctly before use though :lol: 

PZ.


----------



## PistolPatch

I've had a bit more of a think...

If my memory serves me correctly, you can't do full volume brewing and are therefore having to sparge as well because of your small pot size. This could lead to 2 problems. One - the sugars mightn't be being rinsed from the grain well enough during the mash. Two - your sparging method may not be rinsing the sugar from the grains well enough either.

To work this out though, you'll need to take a hydrometer reading. Until you find your test tube or buy another just use a jug or something and then tip it back into the kettle when you're finished. Do the same for your OG as well. Just no rinse the jug first. I think some figures are needed before the real source of the problem can be found.

Be interesting to hear the stats.

Cheers
Pat


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## Fingerlickin_B

Well, I scored a hydrometer this arvo and found a suitable "sample tube"...another small flower vase :lol: 

Mash water almost up to strike temp. 

It's brew time.........again! B) 

PZ.

p.s. I just checked the thermometer I've used the last two times...reads 52 @ a true temp of 58...think we've found the problem :super:

oh, and the cheapy from Big W? Right on the money


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## Fingerlickin_B

Chilling in the sink with some ice now. 

Using the ProMash Temperature Correction Calculator this one goes as such;
Post-mash gravity: 1.056
Post-boil gravity: 1.074

The numbers predict a good strength beer :huh: 

Still smells like to previous failures though :blink: 

Next payday if all goes well Im shelling out $ for the rest of the gear to go full batches, but if this one fails Im lost as to where Ive gone wrong! h34r: 

PZ.


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## PistolPatch

Well that's good news on the thermometer and the numbers.

Doesn't sound like you're too keen on the smell though. Does it taste OK?

Maybe there's someone local that can have a taste and put your mind to rest?

Finger, my fingers are crossed for you


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## Fingerlickin_B

Krausen this morning...another good sign  

Did I mention that I only ended up with about 6-7 litres of wort in the fermenter? :lol: 

PZ.


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## Fingerlickin_B

Well, still fermenting away like a monster and the thick krausen isn't showing signs it'll be dropping any time soon  

No doubt this'll be a good'n...and bloody strong according to ProMash  

*edit* - *Last AG using this gear  * (but might keep it for partials)  

I'll hopefully be doing full batches within about 1 & 1/2 weeks...just ordered everything I need...except a bag :lol: 

PZ.


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## Fingerlickin_B

Just took this pic:





Ice Cream Spider anyone? :lol: 

PZ.


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## mimerbryg

Hi everyone

Some of you has asked for an instruction how our system is used





I have make a little guide in english(?) with 35 pictures, which you can 
download as PDF from here
Hope you find it use- and helpfull

Since my last post I have made a CFC and a crane, to improve our system

Kind regards
Flemming


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## ausdb

mimerbryg said:


> I have make a little guide in english(?) with 35 pictures, which you can
> download as PDF from here
> Hope you find it use- and helpfull



Hi Flemming, great stuff hopefully I will have my all in one system going this weekend.


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## Fingerlickin_B

Success!!!! :beerbang: 

This beer ain't bad at all, although the hop schedule was obviously quite wrong given my final volume and whatnot...but still a nice drop. 

Thanks to everyone who has posted in this thread, as it was you guys who's posts I read and thought "Hey, I could do that too"! Not to mention Pat who gave plenty of much appreciated encouragement behind the scenes  

I've almost got all my gear ready to go full batches now, so this beer has really boosted my confidence after my past failure (bloody incorrect reading thermometer was the cause). 

Unless I come across a big bucket I'll probably try the bag option for my first full batch AG...me? AG? Well I never! :lol: 

PZ.


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## PistolPatch

Flemming - that is a brilliantly written PDF. Very well done :beer:

Finger, it's brilliant to see you got there. Really pleased for you. Bloody thermometers eh? Also great to hear you are getting the equipment to do a full batch. I'm pretty amazed at how you guys are managing with the small equipment. You'll probably fall asleep on your next one - it'll be that easy. Enjoy that beer!

Looking forward to tasting Ausdb's beer too when I get to Perth if he hasn't drunk it all  What's your all in one system going to be Aus?

Cheers
Pat


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## PistolPatch

vjval1974 and I recently did some side by side brewing. I posted the results as "BIAB Versus Batch Tasting Results," which was a bit stupid as a more accurate title would have been, "Full Volume Versus Batch-Sparging Taste Results."

All of you who are doing the full volume brewing will be pleased with the results which I posted here though I am worried that since we haven't heard from anyone here for a while that you may have all been electrocuted  

:blink: 
Pat


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## wobbly

James Squire/Flemming and any other users of the "All in one Brewery"system

I have completed 11 brews now using this concept and I have noticed that most of my beers now exhibite a "Chill Haze". I assume it's chill haze becaues it is only evident in the cold beer. Beer in the bottle prior to refridgeration is very clear, hazy in the glass when the cold beer first pored and then tends to clear again as the beer in the glass warms a little.

I have not changed by grain type (JW) since adopting this method. Mash schedule is basically a single infusion batch sparge. PH of mash is around 5.3 - 5.5 (as best as I can measure), whirlflock used for the last 15 mins of boil. There is virtually no sedimemt in the bottle or what is has set quite hard on the bottom and remains there during poring

I haven't tried a protien rest because most of my reading suggests that with todays malts this isn't necessary.

Do other users of this concept experience similar results.

This chil haze isn't necessarily a serious issue it is just something I have now noticed and would like to understand why it is occuring. If it was an issue I could always drink out of a "beer stine".

Any thought/comments would be appreciated.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly

Well I guess someone had to "Rain on the Parade" of BIAB/All in One Brewery/Full Volume Mashing

After 12 brews using the "All in One" concept I am going to revert to "traditional mashing" as non of my past 12 beers has been as good as those I made using traditional mashing methods (albeit a "bucket in a bucket system")

I have spoken at lenght of the issues with Roy at TWOC and tried a number of adjustments without any real improvement.

Issues

Most beers have evidenced a "chill haze" I have tested and confirmed conversion with an Iodine test and also tried increasing whirlfloc addtion to 30 mins from end of boil with no benefit.

Most beers have exhibited a sweet tatse (best way to describe it) with a variety of yeasts US56, Wyeast 1056, Weast 1272, Rogues Pacman, WLP 530. Grain bill has not had an excess of either Crystal, Munich or Vienna malts

Most beers have tended to be quite "malty" with mash temps of 65C. Double checked the reading with a second thermometer

I have been using a muslin hop bag (about 200mm dia) and none of my beers exhibit the hop flavours of those brewed with the hops added direct to the boil. SG into boiler have typically been 1035 to 1040 and hop additions have been equivilant to that required to provide a range of 26 to 40 IBU according to Beer Smith. I have purchased so called "fresh hops" to try and discount old/stale hops.

I have been using an immersion heater in lieu of a three ring gas burner. Evaporation rates have been down a bit from 14% to around 12%.

So I'm going back to using a new (Christmas present) Ice Cold eski with a Phills False Bottom (an upgrade from the Bucket in a Bucket) and also going back to adding the hops direct to the kettle in an effort to get back where I was 6/8 months ago and use the three ring burner again for the boil

Comments would be welcomed

Cheers 

Wobbly


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## PistolPatch

Hey Wobbly,

I think I just discovered the problem. I did post some possible answers a few weeks ago in the BIAB thread but just popped back here to look something up and noticed...



> I have been using a muslin hop bag (about 200mm dia)...



This will have been a major problem as such a small bag doesn't allow for enough agitation and therefore rinsing.

Anyway, I live close by now (met Roy the other day) so hopefully we'll catch up and have a beer in the not too distant future.

Cheers,
Pat


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