# K & B Dark Ale Recipe Suggestions



## big78sam (18/8/09)

Hi all,

I've had a look through the recipe DB and done a search but haven't found anything that has grabbed me so here I go with a new thread...

I've been making quite a few hop heavy (cascade, chinook, amarillo etc) pale ales recently and have a fair few stouts sitting around as well. I'm after something to break this up and was looking at a kit and bits dark ale, something on the malty side (although being a hop head a nice burst of hops is always a welcome addition). 

As I'm brewing this to drink before the warm weather hits I'm looking for something that doesnt have to sit in the bottle for 2 to 3 months to be drinkable. I'm also happy to try some different kinds of hops. The LHBS is small and the owner is just a K&K brewer so is fairly limited as well as far as specialty grains goes. He has some chocolate malt but thats about it.

Any ideas?


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## glaab (18/8/09)

Hi,

someone posted the recipe below which I cut and pasted into my recipe doc. 
Looks good but haven't tried it myself yet. Cheers.

I just tasted my toucan of Stout, Dark with 500gms LDME and 300gms Choc Malt last night, US-04 yeast. It was :icon_drool2: 
The Best Toucan I have ever done, by a mile.


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## RobboMC (18/8/09)

Extra Special Porter ( this is the beer in my little photo )

Muntons Nut Brown or Morgans Iron Bark or Coopers Dark Ale kit

1 kg to 1.5 kg LLME ( for the hop boil )
1 kg Morgans Caramalt
1 kg Morgans Dark Crystal
1/2 kg Amber Grain - steeped 60 min @ 70 deg C
1/2 kg Crystal Grain - steeped 60 min @ 70 deg C

50 g Goldings Hop pellets( 35g boiled 20 min, 15 g boiled 10 min )
25 g Fuggles Hops (10 g boiled 20 min, 15g boiled 3 min )

Don't overboil the hops, you want flavour NOT bittering

Volume 23 litres - abv 6.5%

Seriously good dark ale


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## Pennywise (18/8/09)

Just polished off a keg of this, was very yummmmmy

Coopers Dark Ale
1kg LDME
300g Choc Chit
20g Willamette @ 10 mins
Wyeast 1084 (2 litre starter)
Made to 21 Litres

Now off the top of my head I think I put 100g of roast barley in as well, but not 100% sure, got my notes at home.


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## Power Wolf (18/8/09)

Hey sam,
Not sure if this would tickle your fancy but here's a recipe I'm about to do again based on a Dark German ale, used a American yeast last time cos they didn't have what I wanted in stock.

DARK ARTS ALE
Beermakers Old Extract
150g Crystal
100g Chocolate
50g Black
25g Hallertau 
25g Perle
500g DME brew improver
Sf-04(last time I used 05)

Steeped grain, extract and 12.5g of each hops for 40 mins
2 min addition of the rest of the hops. Add water to 21l

Pretty basic and I'm not sure how the 04 yeast goes but after 2 weeks with the 05 it was delicious. Fastest drank brew than any other batch I made all year. 

Got the ingredients ready to go again for round 2. Would appreciate any comments or suggestions...
Cheers,
Lewy


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## big78sam (3/9/09)

RobboMC said:


> Coopers Dark Ale kit
> 
> 1 kg to 1.5 kg LLME ( for the hop boil )
> 1 kg Morgans Caramalt
> ...



I'm going to give this one a go but this seems like a huge amount of malt to me without much bitterness to balance the sweetness out. I've already ditched the 1kg morgans caramalt but I'm left with the kit plus 1.5kg of LLME plus 1kg morgans dark crystal plus 1kg of steeped grains with the only bitterness coming from the kit (the hop boil might give some minor bitterness)

Any thoughts on this?


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## drsmurto (3/9/09)

> Coopers Dark Ale kit
> 
> 1 kg to 1.5 kg LLME ( for the hop boil )
> 1 kg Morgans Caramalt
> ...



Several issues with this recipe.

1. Thats a truckload of crystal, assuming that the tins of morgans caramalt and dark crystal comes from pure caramalt and dark crystal? That would take years to settle down and would be so cloying!

2. Amber malt needs to be mashed with a base malt.


I did quite a few K&B dark ales in my kit brewing days, this one was a hit with mates. My AG dark ales/brown porters are very similar, simple but tasty.


Prince of Darkness (Dark Ale / Brown Porter)
1 x tin Coopers Lager
1.0 kg LDME
200g dark crystal
300g chocolate malt
25g Fuggles at 25 and 5 mins.
Yeast - SO4 or nottingham

Top up to 20L for OG 1.048, IBU ~33, ABV ~4.8%

All the extra colour and flavour is coming from the choc and dark crystal malts, the lager tin gives you a base of IBUs which you dont need to add too much to. Very simple, very tasty.


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## RobboMC (3/9/09)

Hi Bigsam,

I'm chuffed that you've chosen my recipe.

You aren't wrong about the amount of malt, so I've checked back through my brewing records.
This recipe has had a number of versions over a few years.
The first time I made this was with 2 kg of the various liquid malts, plus 1kg of steeped grain,
later on I've used the full 3kg of liquid malts with the steeped grain and boiled the first Goldings addition 
for 40 min not 20.

It's your beer, if you think it looks to too malty than lengthen the boil a bit, or reduce the LLME to only 1 kg, or even 1/2 kg.
If you're still worried, you could also make an extra hop addition of some higher alpha bittering hops
and boil for 45 min, though using the Goldings for bittering makes for smooth brew, though
it's an expensive source of bitterness.

Personally, I like dark, syrupy, malty beer but that's just my taste.

You've got me licking my lips, I must make this again soon myself.

PS the Caramalt can is only 60% Caramalt, the Dak Crystal can is also 60%.

Specs here:

http://www.morgansbrewing.com.au/productDe...rk+Crystal+Malt

Yes, I accept this is quite an extreme recipe, and risks going over the top.

You can always mix it with some lemonade and make a black shandy if it's overwehelming.


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## buttersd70 (3/9/09)

DrSmurto said:


> 1. Thats a truckload of crystal, assuming that the tins of morgans caramalt and dark crystal comes from pure caramalt and dark crystal? That would take years to settle down and would be so cloying!
> 
> 2. Amber malt needs to be mashed with a base malt.



yes, the morgans caramalt is 60% cara, 40% pale, and the morgans crystal is 60% crystal and 40% vienna....but even so, wow, that's a lot. Especially combined with the steeped crystal. I like sweet beers, too, but I just can't imagine this one. But, to each their own.

And yes, amber requires not only a mash, but a mash with a highly modified base, due to it's low diastatic power.


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## happy benno (3/9/09)

RobboMC said:


> Extra Special Porter ( this is the beer in my little photo )
> 
> Muntons Nut Brown or Morgans Iron Bark or Coopers Dark Ale kit
> 
> ...



Hi all, i don't think morgans make the 1kg tins of master blends, i had to used a 1.5kg tin of caramalt in my last brew.


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## big78sam (3/9/09)

buttersd70 said:


> yes, the morgans caramalt is 60% cara, 40% pale, and the morgans crystal is 60% crystal and 40% vienna....but even so, wow, that's a lot. Especially combined with the steeped crystal. I like sweet beers, too, but I just can't imagine this one. But, to each their own.
> 
> And yes, amber requires not only a mash, but a mash with a highly modified base, due to it's low diastatic power.




Well I've already bought the amber and crystal and they are cracked and in the same bag. Will I do any harm if I steep the whole bag, including the amber?


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## manticle (3/9/09)

As mentioned above - the amber needs to be mashed. You can mash the whole lot together though and the effect will be similar on the specialty grains. However note Butters' post about mashing the amber with another modified base.


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## buttersd70 (3/9/09)

steeping for 60 minutes @ 70c is actually mashing. I've never tried mashing amber on it's own, so the likelihood of it being able to self convert (ie if it has enough enzyme available to convert it's starch to sugar) is something I don't know. I can only go off the information I have, which is the specifications in beersmith. Rechecking it, JW amber is listed as having a reasonably high diastatic ability, wheras other ambers are listed as being low. So it would depend on how it was manufactured.

My thought is to rdwahab, proceed as per the recipe, watch your temp on the steep a bit more carefully than you normally would and try to keep it in the mid-high 60's for the full 60 minutes if you can. And if you can't, don't stress too much, all that will happen if it doesn't convert is that you will get unconverted starches into the beer, which may (or may not)cause problems clearing it...and with it being so dark anyway, it's not likely to make too much difference.


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## big78sam (11/9/09)

Ok I thought I'd post the final brew. I decided to ditch the LLME extract and replace with some DDME I had on hand to save a bit of money.

1 can coopers dark ale
500g DDME
1 kg morgans dark crystal
1/2 kg amber plus 1/2 kg crystal grain, 60 minutes at 65-70 degrees
35g goldings 20 minutes, 5g 10 minutes
10g fuggles 20 minutes, 20g 5 minutes, 10g flameout

us-05

OG 1048
current SG after a week in the fermenter 1018 (and still dropping)

The hops additions were rough as I just poured into the brew in stages from 40g packets.

It's brilliant but if I had it over again I'd up the malt a little bit. I'll post again once it's had a few weeks in the bottle for completeness.


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## robbo5253 (11/9/09)

Hey Guys,
Looking at doing the following on the weekend, any thoughts?

21 Litres

.25 Choc Malt steeped
.2 Caraf 2 steeped
40g POR - 60 minutes

3kg Coopers LME

Nottingham yeast

Cheers

Robbo


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## buttersd70 (11/9/09)

Robbo, personally I'd be dropping the grains down to about 150g each, adjusting the hop addition (depending on AA and boil grav) to achieve 30-32IBU (based on the 1046 I think youll get with these ingredients), then ferment it with recultured commercial coopers yeast @18-19C....alternatively, do this but also add 200g dry wheat malt, and increase volume to 23L. Should be very similar to CDA.


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## Bribie G (11/9/09)

Sounds the goods, Joe White choc chit malt is really nice. To make it more highly attenuated and a bit more Tooheys Oldish (it that appeals to you) I'd use 2.5 of malt extract and 500 of sugar or dex. And ferment cool, Notto can plug along nicely at 16 or 17 degrees, to get a really clean finish.


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## robbo5253 (11/9/09)

Butters

Cheers for the info, did originally have the 200g of wheat malt in there, so I will add that back in.
Have dropped both grains to 150g each and changed to 23L which gives me OG 1.046 with IBU of 30.5 according to K & B SS.
Beersmith may say otherwise?

Yeast wise, I am not confident enough to try a coopers yet, I do have a pack of S-04 or a US-05 yeast cake which I will be taking a Dr S GA off of on the same day. Whats my best option out of those?

Cheers

Robbo


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## brettprevans (11/9/09)

go the us05 whilst its alive and kicking. nice healthy ferment.


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## buttersd70 (11/9/09)

robbo5253 said:


> Butters
> 
> Cheers for the info, did originally have the 200g of wheat malt in there, so I will add that back in.
> Have dropped both grains to 150g each and changed to 23L which gives me OG 1.046 with IBU of 30.5 according to K & B SS.
> ...


Out of those two, the us05. I wouldn't be adding sugar of any sort into it; if you want it to attenuate more, just aerate it really well when you pitch, and pitch a decent amount of your yeastcake (not saying to over pitch, mind you. About 2/3 cup of solids, and that should crack along nicely.

On a side note; if you already extract brew, and if you already reuse yeast cakes, then culturing up a coopers yeast is no different...it's really just a teeny tiny extract brew with no hops, crash chill, pour off the liquid, and salvage the yeastcake from it.


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## robbo5253 (11/9/09)

Will stick with the all malt and aerating it with the yeast cake!

Thanks for the tip with the coopers yeast, only my second extract brew and first time re-using the yeast cake, so will see how that goes a few more times before I work on the coopers reculture.

Just to clarify I just need to scoop out around 2/3 cup of the slurry, clean and sanitise my fermenter and then just pitch the slurry ontop of that?
Do I need to wash it a few times or is this not required if repitching straight away?

Cheers

Robbo


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## buttersd70 (11/9/09)

robbo5253 said:


> Will stick with the all malt and aerating it with the yeast cake!
> 
> Thanks for the tip with the coopers yeast, only my second extract brew and first time re-using the yeast cake, so will see how that goes a few more times before I work on the coopers reculture.
> 
> ...


scoop, clean, sanatise. Add new wort, aerate and pitch. That's all. Don't chuck the rest of the cake, put it in a sanatised plastic bottle in the fridge for later use. Just check it in a few days and vent the cap to release some gas out of it, cos it might have a little bit of activity left with the small amount of wort that you scoop with it.


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## robbo5253 (11/9/09)

I had saved 2 1.5l glass juice bottles that I was going to use, so if I put around 1l of slurry in there and top up with boiled cooled water and shake, then pour off and repeat then just use around 2/3 of a cup of this to pitch? is that correct?

Cheers

Robbo


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## buttersd70 (11/9/09)

pretty much, letting it settle in between. Leave a little bit of head room, though.


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## robbo5253 (11/9/09)

Sweet, thanks again butters!! You are a champion, full of knowledge!


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## RdeVjun (11/9/09)

Hey Butters & co., what sort of age do you get from harvested yeastcake? 
Most of mine have found a new home within two months and I've had no problems firing them up, although 1768 seems to take about two to three days, I now give it a special 'wakey wakey, hands off snakey' feed of starter wort a couple of days before I need it so it becomes more of a conventional starter.

I also harvest mine slightly differently, pour cooled boiled water into the fermenter on top of the cake, swirl around to liquefy, then bottle into 500ml schotts through the tap. I aim to dilute <50/50, really only want enough water to thin it out enough to get it to run out easily. It saves scooping and pouring through a funnel, and if I use the storage container as the water boiling container, I don't need to sanitise anything else. 

My 2c, just a thought... :icon_cheers:

Edit: Spelling, layout...


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## buttersd70 (11/9/09)

Age? well, if sanitation and storage is up to snuff, yonks and yonks. Couldn't give you a more accurate timeline. :lol: I've direct pitched at several weeks old (4 weeks, maybe. ish), with no issues at all, any older than that, I'd step up to a starter just to check viability, health and sanitation....I'm pretty confident in my processes, though, so best practice would probably be to step to a starter for checking for anything that's more than a week or two.


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## RdeVjun (11/9/09)

Thanks Butters, that ties in fairly well with my experiences. I reckon its definitely got to have some wake up tucker after more than a few weeks, but if I brewed even more frequently than I do, it just wouldn't be an issue!

The tardy whole repitches I've had have been with 1768, most others are away overnight and I usually give them a day or so at room temperature to get their act together. 

In some respects with older cakes its not all that different to reculturing from a bottled beer, just with an enormous amount of sediment! Not long ago I broke out some 1768 that had been in the fridge for 10 weeks, worked fine in a starter. Also when opening up a stored cake, the smell is often just divine, which contrasts to some starters I've made which have been just a bit naff but in the end have fermented out fine, although at times I was nervous about an infection.


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## big78sam (17/12/09)

big78sam said:


> Ok I thought I'd post the final brew. I decided to ditch the LLME extract and replace with some DDME I had on hand to save a bit of money.
> 
> 1 can coopers dark ale
> 500g DDME
> ...



Just completing this for posterity. When steeping the grain I let the temp get too high and had some astringent tannins at first however these have disappeared somewhat over time. I'd ditch the the amber malt given the above posts but other than that I can highly recommend this recipe if you want a nice malty brew and can afford to give it a bit of time in the bottle. In fact it's one of my best kits and bits. Thanks all for the suggestions and RobboMC for the recipe base.


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