# Sodium Carbonate As A Cleaner



## manticle (7/7/10)

Just in Safeway buying some napisan type product as I've run out and saw for a very cheap price, lectric soda. According to the packet, this is (or contains but I think is) sodium carbonate. It recommends for use to clean grime off barbecues as well as to soften water in washing machines. Obviously it's a cleaning product that has some similar qualities to sod PERcarbonate.

Anyone got any experience with this or know any problems I might encounter using it? It does suggest to keep away from aluminium.

Obviously i'd be rinsing in the same way I do with the percarb so I'm not asking if it's foodsafe.

Cheers

PS - did a search before posting but apologies if there is something out there I've missed.


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## bum (7/7/10)

I'm no science-talking-guy but trusty wikipedia (yay me and my research skills! maybe I AM a scientist after all) informs me sodium carbonate raises pH and acts as a water softener so be very careful when rinsing.

Another reason to be careful when rinsing: "In taxidermy, sodium carbonate added to boiling water will remove flesh from the skull or bones of trophies to create the "European skull mount" or for educational display in biological and historical studies."

Personally, it may be very safe but I'd be keeping it the hell out of my brewery.


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## manticle (7/7/10)

Next to it they had crystals (same stuff, different shape) to be dissolved in water used to massage and unstress your feet so I'm not amazingly sure I should concern myself too much.

I do also colllect roadkill, dead animals etc for sculpture and drawing so I guess there's another use if you're right. I'll check the bag for large warning signs saying 'WILL BURN FLESH'

Also your trusty online source just told me small amounts can be used as a food additive and as a foaming additive in toothpaste.


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## bum (7/7/10)

Yeah, but the pH issue is surely something to consider.


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## manticle (7/7/10)

Sodium percarb raises pH too though as far as I'm aware. I thought chlorine did too. Both of these are used in my brewery regularly.

An acid rinse followed by a thorough rinse shouldn't be too different from the percarb would it? Mainly wondering about its use as an effective cleaner although any potential health issues are obviously important.

I figure there's probably a reason it's not commonly used that someone here knows for sure but had to ask.


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## bum (7/7/10)

manticle said:


> Sodium percarb raises pH too though as far as I'm aware. I thought chlorine did too.


 
Well, you learn something everyday! I did not know that. 

Someone will know the ins and outs of the stuff (particularly if it is cheaper).


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## DEALE (7/7/10)

I use Napisan as a post fermentation cleaner for my glass carboys and first soak cleaner for kegs. The experts - Five Star Chemicals will tell you that cleaning is one step, sanatising another and they cannot be done effectively in one step.

I then switch to PBW for a final clean and star san for santitising. Always rinsing well after PBW or Napisan. Five Star Chemical website has some good info.


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## manticle (7/7/10)

Napisan is sodium percarbonate (well the active ingredient is anyway). I use it all the time (for cleaning not sanitising).

This is a different chemical (sodium carbonate) with some obvious similarities so I'm wondering if it can be used in the same way.


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## Wolfy (7/7/10)

manticle said:


> Just in Safeway buying some napisan type product as I've run out and saw for a very cheap price, lectric soda. According to the packet, this is (or contains but I think is) sodium carbonate. It recommends for use to clean grime off barbecues as well as to soften water in washing machines. Obviously it's a cleaning product that has some similar qualities to sod PERcarbonate.
> 
> Anyone got any experience with this or know any problems I might encounter using it? It does suggest to keep away from aluminium.
> 
> Obviously i'd be rinsing in the same way I do with the percarb so I'm not asking if it's foodsafe.


It's food safe and actually a food additive (from memory), it's also the stuff that Sodium Percarbonate breaks down into as part of the (oxidation?) process that it uses to clean.
It has similar properties to Sodium Percarbonate, but lacks the (oxidation?) process that really gives Sodium Percarbonate the 'strength' to clean mostly anything - so think of it more like a very weak version of Sodium Percarbonate.
A number of brewers on the UK forums use it for their cleaning, but IMHO if you can get Sodium Percarbonate, it does a much better job than Sodium Carbonate, so why not use what is better?


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## manticle (7/7/10)

It was just the price that pulled me in. Might be good to have some in reserve for less crusty stuff.

Good info wolfy - cheers.


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## leiothrix (7/7/10)

Sodium percarbonate is more correctly known as sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate. - 2Na2CO3.3H2O2

Basically in water it turns into sodium carbonate (washing soda -- Na2CO3) and hydrogen peroxide (hair bleach, disinfectant, rocket fuel -- H2O2).

So it may have some use for cleaning it's probably not at all what you're after.

Rob.


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## Wolfy (7/7/10)

manticle said:


> It was just the price that pulled me in. Might be good to have some in reserve for less crusty stuff.


Bulk-buy pure Sodium Percarbonate, use a tea-spoon or two each time and I don't think you will find much better or cheaper. 

I think we have some Lectric Soda in the Laundry actually, boil it up with a few cakes of pure-yellow-soap and it makes a good/soft/gentle home-made liquid washing-machine-wash (I recall making it when we had young kids), from memory the washing soda also acts as a water softer or some such.


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## MarkBastard (7/7/10)

bum said:


> Well, you learn something everyday! I did not know that.
> 
> Someone will know the ins and outs of the stuff (particularly if it is cheaper).



Sodium Percarbonate is an Alkaline cleaner and Starsan is an Acidic Sanitiser.

From what I understand part of how these products work is that they change the pH drastically.


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## leiothrix (7/7/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Sodium Percarbonate is an Alkaline cleaner and Starsan is an Acidic Sanitiser.
> 
> From what I understand part of how these products work is that they change the pH drastically.



With the percarbonate I'm sure the pH would play a part, but it releases a crap-load of free oxygen which eats (err, oxidises) organic material, along with a bunch of other stuff.

@Manticle- Chloride doesn't affect pH at all. pH is the ratio of H to OH, Cl doesn't add any more of either of those, or bond to either to take them out of solution.

Rob.


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## manticle (7/7/10)

Re chlorine - So it has a high pH itself (something around 11?) but doesn't raise pH?

Interesting. My chemistry understanding is pretty basic (no pun intended) but always keen to know more.

Sorry did you mean chlorine or chloride?


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## leiothrix (7/7/10)

Either way. Chloride is Cl2, which is what you would find floating around as a gas. Dissolve it in water and you get 2Cl- (i.e. two negatively charged chlorine ions).

If you mixed it in with pure water at pH 7 it wouldn't change the pH at all, as it's not changing the balance of H to OH. If there are other things in the water (minerals, organics, etc) the pH may change because it's interacting with the other components.

E.g. Hydrochloric acid (HCl) drops the pH through the floor because it turns into H+ and Cl-. You've added a bunch of H so changed the H to OH ratio.

Table salt (NaCl) in water turns into Na+ and Cl-. Neither of those do anything with H or OH so the pH is unaffected.


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## DEALE (7/7/10)

leiothrix said:


> With the percarbonate I'm sure the pH would play a part, but it releases a crap-load of free oxygen which eats (err, oxidises) organic material, along with a bunch of other stuff.
> 
> @Manticle- Chloride doesn't affect pH at all. pH is the ratio of H to OH, Cl doesn't add any more of either of those, or bond to either to take them out of solution.
> 
> Rob.




The reaction I get when I dump 100+ grams sodium percarbonate into a glass carboy shows how much Oxygen is given off. I wish I had some pics to post. I leave a light residue of Krausen after a scrub with a carboy brush. The Krausen is gone after 24 hours. the higher the tenmp the faster the reaction and cleaning. But I believe there is a safe high temp limit to this which is covered in various interviews with Five Star Chemicals on Basic Brewing Radio or the Brewing Network.

Soory I can help much with Sodium Carbonate, but Napisan or No-brand version is 1/4 the price of PBW so I'm happy with using that.


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## Screwtop (7/7/10)

Good old fashioned Washing Soda :lol: 

Thanks for the tip off will check Woolies, haven't seen it for donkeys, could buy it by the lb then. Used to make a great paint stripper for removing varnish and old lead paint from old/antique peices.

Ta,

Screwy


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