# Is Melanoidan A Good Substitute For Victory.



## Hogan (14/8/09)

The following recipe is a copy of an APA that was written using an all US grain bill. I have substituted that grain bill as follows:

JW Ale malt for American 2 row.
Carahell for Crystal 10.
Caramunich 11 for Crystal 40
Melanoidan for Victory.

These substitutes were provided in this document titled Malt_Comparisons 

Are the substitutions noted in this document considered accurate??

Is Wey Pilsner a better substitute for American 2 row pale??.

The main substitution I am concerned with is the melanoidan. Is it too much. If so I was going to halve it and add 100 gms of flaked wheat.

Suggestions appreciated.


Cheers, Hoges.




BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: GUARD HOUSE PALE ALE
Brewer: Michael 
Asst Brewer: tyle: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) BU:GU = 0.57 - 0.92

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 25.00 L 
Boil Size: 32.98 L
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 17.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 33.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.59 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.Grain 83.98 % 
0.22 kg Carahell (Weyermann) (25.6 EBC) Grain 4.03 % 
0.22 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 4.00 % 
0.22 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 4.00 % 
0.22 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 4.00 % 
22.00 gm Horizon [10.90 %] (60 min) Hops 23.4 IBU 
24.00 gm Cascade [5.80 %] (10 min) Hops 4.9 IBU 
25.00 gm Pearle [5.70 %] (10 min) Hops 4.6 IBU 
8.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops - 
22.02 gm Cascade [5.80 %] (0 min) Hops - 
1 Pkgs California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: APA
Total Grain Weight: 5.46 kg
----------------------------
APA
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Saccharification Add 16.41 L of water at 77.9 C 67.0 C 
10 min Mash Out  Heat to 75.5 C over 4 min 75.5 C 


Notes:
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No gypsum.

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## brendo (14/8/09)

i usually sub amber for victory - haven't used melanoidon, so can't really comment on that one. I will be interested to see what feedback you get on this one - particularly if that spreadsheet is any good  

Cheers,

Brendo


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## Hogan (14/8/09)

Quite surprised that there has not been more response to this question seeing as the Malt_Comparisons chart has been mentioned in five AHB posts in the past and downloaded by 300 members. From those posts there seems to be some consensus that the chart relates more to colour than to end taste. I would expect that if a chart is held out to be a 'comparison' ie. read 'substitute' then it should be true to all aspects of the grain and not just the colour. It is not much point putting up a chart that says these grains may be compared with one another when both are the same EBC but one tastes like biscuit and the other provides a rich decocted malt flavour.

I did find posts on Amber malt where it has been described as being closer to Victory whereas Melanoidan is oft described as a 'super munich'. 

This suggestion was put up as a method of toasting pale malt to achieve amber malt and I may just give that a go and delete the melanoidan altogether. _You can make Amber malt by just sticking your pale malt in the oven. Spread it on a cookie sheet, then bake at 200F for about 30 minutes, then up to 300F for about 45 minutes._ 


Cheers, Hoges.


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## Sammus (14/8/09)

victory is just american biscuit. sub belgian biscuit or or an amber malt of your choosing.


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## /// (14/8/09)

Booyahh ... just give it a go - reckon it will turn out crap with the Melanoidan? Dont think so ....


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## Fourstar (14/8/09)

AFAIK, Amber is slightly darker than melanoiden and Brown is slighlty darker than Amber, all start off as malted barley, non crystallised.

Victory is also known as biscuit malt in the states. Everyone claims Amber is a sub for Victory yet Amber malt is usually double the lovibond of Victory. Observing the specs for Victory malt compared to Melanoiden, the Lovibond ratings are almost identical (2-3Lov differneces at most). i dont understand why Amber is accepted as its substitute when its clearly higher kilned. if they are kilned to the same degree and are coming from the same starting point as straight malted barley, what makes Amber the better choice from the two?

I'd love and explanation on this as all i ever seem to see if "victory = amber". 

Amber to me, can taste quite bitter/astringent where as melanoiden is very Chewy, bready, nutty biscuity... Munich on crack. I dont know why it is not advocated as the substitute as melanoiden is what i use as i dont really like amber. Yet for some reason i like brown malt :huh:


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## /// (14/8/09)

I was joking ... joking ....


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## Fourstar (14/8/09)

Joking? as in dont use the melanoiden?


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## Sammus (14/8/09)

which amber? JW amber is what most people are talking about (at least I meant to qualify it was what I was recommending) and is about on par with victory at around 50ebc, TF amber is darker at around 80 and bairds the darkest at 100+


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## /// (14/8/09)

use it .. use it .. go forth and good brew man ... BREW!


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## Online Brewing Supplies (14/8/09)

Malting is not that simple, each malting will be different from the next.Comparisons between companies is not really objective.If you are going to work with malt, stick to some that you know and develop from there.
GB


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## Fourstar (14/8/09)

Sammus said:


> which amber? JW amber is what most people are talking about (at least I meant to qualify it was what I was recommending) and is about on par with victory at around 50ebc, TF amber is darker at around 80 and bairds the darkest at 100+



You are right about JW Amber being 30EBC~ (15SRM) but victory is more ike 28SRM or 55 EBC~. Bairds Amber is like 100EBC. Melanoiden is 23-31 SRM.. see what im getting at, Melanoiden and victory match.



Gryphon Brewing said:


> Malting is not that simple, each malting will be different from the next.Comparisons between companies is not really objective.If you are going to work with malt, stick to some that you know and develop from there.
> GB



Im not so much comparing companies moreso the Lovibond at which they are kinled to. I just dont see the comparison between amber and victory in most cases, Melanoiden is a better fit, kilned wise. Even better would be some dingemans biscuit malt(not that ive used it, just going off name and colour).


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## Sammus (15/8/09)

on the JW website it says 30-60ebc, so 30 ebc is on the lower scale, with it quite possibly being closer to victory toward the upper end. But we're not just talking about colour either, descriptions of amber always seem to state they give a nutty and or biscuity flavour, whereas melanoidin always seems to be about big malty flavours.

I'm not really meaning to disagree with you, I haven't really had any experience with melanoidin, it could be a perfect substitute. Amber may not be perfect, it seems to fit the bill from my reading and very limited experience.

Weyermann certainly seem to think melanoidin is a good subs for victory  link




Weyermann website said:


> Question I was hoping you could recommend a couple of your malts.I am trying to replace Briess Chocolate and Briess Victory malts with your malts. I use a bit of the chocolate and victory for my Schwartzbier. The chocolate gives me the dark color I need but does impart a bit more roasty flavor than I woudd like. The victory gives me a touch of biscuit flavor that helps add a bit of mouthfeel to the beer.
> Answer My suggestions to replace the Malts would be:
> 
> Briess Chocolate: 350L :
> ...


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## AndrewQLD (15/8/09)

220g seems like a lot of melanoidin to me. It's quite an intensely flavoured grain and is very obvious in quantities above 100g in a 23 lt brew, however my experience is only using it in a pilsner so it could well have stood out more than it will in the recipe you have posted.

To me melanoidin is much more of a malty bready grain than a biscuity one and so while the color might match the victory I don't think the flavor will be even close, my vote would be an amber malt.

Andrew


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (15/8/09)

AndrewQLD said:


> 220g seems like a lot of melanoidin to me. It's quite an intensely flavoured grain and is very obvious in quantities above 100g in a 23 lt brew, however my experience is only using it in a pilsner so it could well have stood out more than it will in the recipe you have posted.
> 
> To me melanoidin is much more of a malty bready grain than a biscuity one and so while the color might match the victory I don't think the flavor will be even close, my vote would be an amber malt.
> 
> Andrew



On top off what Andrew is saying, why are you using both Melanoidin and Munich 2? Munich 2 provides are fair bit of malty flavour ( esp if it is the Weyermann product) and combined with the Melanoidin I think there may be too much maltiness for a beer that is 33IBU. Use one or the other would be my recommendation.

C&B
TDA


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## Hogan (15/8/09)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> On top off what Andrew is saying, why are you using both Melanoidin and Munich 2? Munich 2 provides are fair bit of malty flavour ( esp if it is the Weyermann product) and combined with the Melanoidin I think there may be too much maltiness for a beer that is 33IBU. Use one or the other would be my recommendation.
> 
> C&B
> TDA




That's exactly my point DA. The original recipe called for 4% Munich and 4% Victory. The chart puts up Melanoidan as a substitute for Victory but as I have stated above, Melanoidan is actually a darker more intense version of Munich. It would seem that both Munich 2 and Melanoidan of the same % would not work in this recipe. Perhaps Amber may well be the better alternative to the Melanoidan.


Cheers, Hoges.


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## technocat (15/8/09)

Fourstar said:


> Amber to me, can taste quite bitter/astringent where as melanoiden is very Chewy, bready, nutty biscuity... Munich on crack. I dont know why it is not advocated as the substitute as melanoiden is what i use as i dont really like amber. Yet for some reason i like brown malt :huh:



I agree and have used melanoiden in a few European styles and noted all of the above in the final outcome.

:icon_cheers:


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## Hogan (15/8/09)

Well just for experience I tried roasting my own Amber from pale malt as suggested here: _You can make Amber malt by just sticking your pale malt in the oven. Spread it on a cookie sheet, then bake at 200F for about 30 minutes, then up to 300F for about 45 minutes. _

Definitely no chance of me putting any maltsters out of business. The grains from the oven finished with a really astringent taste and I didn't even leave it in full term. Wasn't going to put that in my APA so I scrubbed the home made Amber altogether, deleted the Melanoidan, upped the base malt a tad and put in 2% of flaked wheat. 


Cheers, Hoges.


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## matti (15/8/09)

I am quite sure that the brew would have turned cloy using too much Melanoiden with only 33 IBU.
The other speciality malts may have masked it to a degree but a Qkev said jadidada

The most melanoidan i ever put in any brew is 2% after an early mistake putting in 5%.

All good in the neighbourhood


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## Hogan (15/8/09)

Thanks all for the responses and suggestions. 

Matti - my previous brews using Melanoidan were a Munich Dunkel and a Vienna Lager where I used about 5% in each and that was using Munich 2 as a base or secondary base malt - they turned out fine even though the IBU's were much lower than this recipe. I might be a cloy-aholic. But I have taken on board what has been put forward about mixing the two and will keep it in mind for future brews. 

Cheers, Hoges.


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