# Cider- Fresh Juice Or Not



## dave_h (29/8/10)

Hi everyone,

In the process of planning my first cider, im going for the juice route rather than a can.

Is everyone using fresh juice (preservative free) or the stuff in tetra packs with a long shelf life (i assume they are pasteurized?) my plan is;

Apple juice (70%), Pear juice (30) to 23l
Saf 04 yeast
Nutrient yeast
400g lactose
4-5 Apples/pears blended in a stocking
Maybe a couple of cinnamon sticks

Misses wants a sweet (ish) cider.

I wasnt planning on cold shocking as dont have a fridge (yet), so I was going to let it brew out in the fermenter (might be able to put it into a second fermenter to let the yeast settle more).

Any thoughts tips (there is a massive amount of info in this forum but I coulnt see anything about using fresh juice)

Thanks in advance

Dave


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## manticle (29/8/10)

1. Avoid preservatives. They make yeast struggle.

2. Find a cheap base juice (safeway have a very cheap homebrand preservative free juice) then build up a bit of complexity with a few more expensive ones like berri or preshafruit.

Sweet is hard to get if you are bottling. The lactose will help as will the pear juice.

There are other methods but to be frank I'm not keen on most of them - some involve sulphites, others involve cooking bottles full of cider.


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## Acasta (29/8/10)

I made a recipe with 10L Aj, 6L apple pear juice, 500g lactose and US-05.
Its only beer on 5 days and its down to around 1.020, i am bottling like you are and found it hard to get some solid facts about making it sweet. However, i just took advice from people and ended up with that as a first try. Im not really sure how it will come out, but ill let you know soon!


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## pk.sax (29/8/10)

I did brew from 'fresh' juice from coles recently, got it down to 1.004 with wine yeast. Haven't tasted the final results yet but what came out of the fermenter was not sweet. It wasn't overly alcoholic (just apple juice, no added sugar for the yeasts. It's in bottles right now and I'm not touching it for another 3-4 weeks at least.

Had a chat recently with my Pete at my LHBS about corn syrup. I had a can of toohey's liquid brewin sugar, apparently it's rather low in fermentable so can be used to prime bottles. But it might work in a cider in primary to leave some residual sweetness.


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## pk.sax (29/8/10)

PS: cant see why the pasteurized long life stuff won't work. I used some of that to bulk prime before bottling. It started fermenting in the carboy I had racked the cider too, it definitely works. And ferments fast.


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## dave_h (29/8/10)

Sweet,

Thanks for all the quick replies.

I will give it a go with the non fresh juice and see how it turns out, I will probably only try 400g of Lactose as I should be able to add more later. 

It will have to wait a couple of weeks before I can give it a go as Im away working  , will post how I get on in what 2 months.....

Cheers

Dave


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## ekul (29/8/10)

All the ciders i have done have taken atleast 2 weeks, sometimes 4 so maybe you could make it up and bottle it when you get back.


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## manticle (29/8/10)

Forgot my 3rd tip - ferment cool and be patient.


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## pk.sax (29/8/10)

Just tasted some cider I made "accidentally".

The bottle of juice I used juice from to bulk prime the cider I intentionally made, well, I left it in the cupboard. Unrefrigerated. Just had a look. Seems like some of that yeast floating around on the day got into that PET juice bottle and fermented the rest of it (major part of 3 ltrs). And it tasted good. Haha. Just a little sweet and a bit of kick too. I can't for the life of me tell u alc% or be bothered to try finding out! But it tastes good, had a nice looking layer of froth on top and a well compacted layer of yeast on the bottom. I bottled my cider on the 22nd so it's been a bit over a week since this juice got 'infected'. Works for me


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## bum (29/8/10)

practicalfool said:


> I had a can of toohey's liquid brewin sugar, apparently it's rather low in fermentable so can be used to prime bottles.


This statement raises many questions but the one I'm most interested in is why you say low fermentables = good for priming?


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## pk.sax (30/8/10)

Damn. It's my iPhone doing auto corrects. I meant CAN'T prime.

The thing doesn't make sense if read how it's written


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## bum (30/8/10)

Ah. Makes more sense now.


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## pk.sax (30/8/10)

I can attribute a lot of bad English up there in my posts to my iphone's auto correct. Definitely made in china, the software I mean  now I am hungry and will go eat some Chinese buns


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## bum (30/8/10)

Bao.

You have to, like, accept the corrections though right? And then click submit, yeah?


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## pk.sax (30/8/10)

Phuker auto accepts it's auto corrects if u continue typing. Need to go back over it dragging the finger to manually correct the phone's phukups. Almost feel like turning it off but that's bad for the drunk and need to text nights, can get tricky pelting out something decipherable w/out


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## PryorBrewing (30/8/10)

Have made a couple using homebrand and coles brand apple juice, fermented @ 18, then crashed chilled @ 1.008 gets a nice cider for around $20 dollars. Also used Nottingham yaest. There is a great thread floating around about a guy who experimented with a bunch of different yeasts and lists the best ones. Worth a look, helped me brew mine.


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## argon (30/8/10)

manticle said:


> Forgot my 3rd tip - ferment cool and be patient.



Made up a cider on Saturday 

15L Berri Apple Juice
6L Berri Apple and Pear Juice
100g LDME
1tsp Yeast Nutrient
4766 Wyeast Cider

Got it fermenting at ambient which is about 15-16C Too cool??? How do you define ferment cool

No activity yet got 2 lagers in the fermentator at 9C so cant chuck it in there am I making life difficult for myself at these temps.


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## PryorBrewing (30/8/10)

ones i have done have all stayed around 16- 18 degrees, the one i just finished got closer to 20 at times and was done in a week and a half. One that fermented at 16- 18 took three and a half weeks. Under 16 i think might be a bit low.


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## manticle (30/8/10)

argon said:


> Made up a cider on Saturday
> 
> 15L Berri Apple Juice
> 6L Berri Apple and Pear Juice
> ...




I would say whatever yeast you're using, aim for the cool end of that. I regularly use white wine yeast and aim for around 14 degrees. Recently fermented one from a slant of 4766 and was told 14 might be too low but it was fermented almost side by side with a simple cider using the wine yeast and seemed to move along ok. Down to 1000 and being cold conditioned now.

I reckon treating it a bit like a lager makes it throw less odd flavours and needs less conditioning time - Looking at trying a lager yeast with one in the near future (before the weather goes nuts in summer).

I think 15-16 should be fine. Did you make a starter or use any sulphites?


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## beerbrewer76543 (30/8/10)

I'm thinking about doing a batch soon on the yeast cake of a Kolsch I have cold conditioning at the moment

I'm currently thinking:

12L Apple Juice
12L Apple & Pear Juice
500g sugaz
2565 Kolsch yeast 
100g yeast nutrient
ferment @ 16*C

Look ok to the cider experts out there?


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## manticle (30/8/10)

I'm far from expert but I enjoy making and drinking them. Generally no need for the extra sugar - they dry right out anyway and starting gravity of straight juice is usually around 1050. Can get below 1000 too so alc level will be reasonable. Sugar is superfluous in my opinion (and the opinion of many other cider makers).

100g seems like a lot of nutrient although I guess I only ever measure out a shake or a sprinkle.

Otherwise I reckon she should be tasty. Will you use all the cake or just some?


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## argon (30/8/10)

manticle said:


> I would say whatever yeast you're using, aim for the cool end of that. I regularly use white wine yeast and aim for around 14 degrees. Recently fermented one from a slant of 4766 and was told 14 might be too low but it was fermented almost side by side with a simple cider using the wine yeast and seemed to move along ok. Down to 1000 and being cold conditioned now.
> 
> I reckon treating it a bit like a lager makes it throw less odd flavours and needs less conditioning time - Looking at trying a lager yeast with one in the near future (before the weather goes nuts in summer).
> 
> I think 15-16 should be fine. Did you make a starter or use any sulphites?



Nah... no starter and no sulphites. Maybe should have done a starter... but that's my laziness creeping in again.



manticle said:


> reckon treating it a bit like a lager makes it throw less odd flavours



That was the plan... do it as cool as possible... Wyeast tells me 15-24... so not much help there. It's for the mrs and i was after something reasonably dry and "wine like" not too much fruitiness.

good to hear that it will still kick along nicely even at these temps... think i'll just forget about it for the next few weeks. take some samples and see how she goes.


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## manticle (30/8/10)

argon said:


> Nah... no starter and no sulphites. Maybe should have done a starter... but that's my laziness creeping in again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I do active starters for mine. Sulphites are meant to kill any wild yeasts (not an issue really if using store bought pasteurised) but I find they give me a headache and take a while to dissipate. Just thought if you had added some that it may have retarded the 4766. If it says 15-24 then she should be right where she is. I'd say let her go and you should end up with exactly what you're chasing


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## argon (30/8/10)

manticle said:


> I do active starters for mine. Sulphites are meant to kill any wild yeasts (not an issue really if using store bought pasteurised) but I find they give me a headache and take a while to dissipate. Just thought if you had added some that it may have retarded the 4766. If it says 15-24 then she should be right where she is. I'd say let her go and you should end up with exactly what you're chasing



Golden... will make my life alot easier having something on tap for the mrs. Not a beer drinker and wants something she can get into. Everytime i hand her a beer she turns up her nose and says, "ewww it tastes like VB" God i hope not!!!

next try will be a wheat beer for her... seemed to like Weihenstephaner Hefeweissbier


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## beerbrewer76543 (30/8/10)

manticle said:


> I'm far from expert but I enjoy making and drinking them. Generally no need for the extra sugar - they dry right out anyway and starting gravity of straight juice is usually around 1050. Can get below 1000 too so alc level will be reasonable. Sugar is superfluous in my opinion (and the opinion of many other cider makers).
> 
> 100g seems like a lot of nutrient although I guess I only ever measure out a shake or a sprinkle.
> 
> Otherwise I reckon she should be tasty. Will you use all the cake or just some?



Ok cool, no extra sugar makes it easy. the yeast nutrient comes in 100g packs so I guess if I dont need that much I could save half for a future brew

I'll probably swish the last bit of kolsch around and try to pick up as much yeast as I can without picking up any hops then pour off the beer once it settles then pitch the whole lot into the cider. A big pitch at low temps should avoid excess esters from the Kolsch yeast... Here's hoping! 

Cheers :beer:


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## Airgead (31/8/10)

L_Bomb said:


> Ok cool, no extra sugar makes it easy. the yeast nutrient comes in 100g packs so I guess if I dont need that much I could save half for a future brew
> 
> Cheers :beer:



The nutrient may come in 100g packs but the dosage rate isn't 100g/batch. There should be some instructions on the pack. Most will say something like a teaspoon for 20l. The one I have has a dosage rate of 40g/100l (yes 100l). So 8g in a 20l batch. There should be enough in that 100g pack of yours for quite a few brews. I have no idea what adding the whole packet will do to a brew. It may leave a chemical taste behind as there si no way the yeast will consume that much nutrient and there will be heaps left in the finished brew.

Oh.. and I ferment 4766 cool too. Lower end of the range. Usually around 16c.

Cheers
Dave


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## pk.sax (17/9/10)

Ive got some cider fermenting - wih airlocks - only thing is, no bloody krausen. Fermentation activity is vigorous. The thing is bubbling madly for the past two days at 16 degrees. Using white wine yeast again. Can see all those bubbles risigthrough the juice like they all need to get somewhere real fast. There is ~ 7-8 mm of yeast grub on the bottom of the carboys.
Using normal LL apple and pear juice mix this time, OG was 1044.

Qns:
1) why no karusen? Cloudy cider had craploads of krausen. Same yeast used (same packet even).

2) why so little trub? The bubbling and fermentation is as vigorous if not more than the cloudy one. Bafflig me why the trub is so miniscule.

3) I'm expecting this one to finish real low gravity like manticle says his' do. Considering this one is more normal cheap type juice. Is that reasonable?


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## argon (17/9/10)

practicalfool said:


> Ive got some cider fermenting - wih airlocks - only thing is, no bloody krausen. Fermentation activity is vigorous. The thing is bubbling madly for the past two days at 16 degrees. Using white wine yeast again. Can see all those bubbles risigthrough the juice like they all need to get somewhere real fast. There is ~ 7-8 mm of yeast grub on the bottom of the carboys.
> Using normal LL apple and pear juice mix this time, OG was 1044.
> 
> Qns:
> ...



I filtered and kegged my first simple cider a couple of nights ago;

1 i use glad wrap and I didn't really get much of a krausen... just a little frothing on the surface... nothing like beer.. not worried though it fermented well enough
2 there was practically zero trub... just a clean yeast cake on the base of the fermenter
3 finished at 1004 from 1050 for 6.1% abv doesn't taste too dry... i reckon just right for my tastes

i reckon you've got nothing to worry about


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## pk.sax (17/9/10)

Aha, good to see its consistent. Was differen from the last one I made in this carboy - cloudy cider, so was a bit puzzled by the differences. Maybe someday I'll chance upon an explanation of why some fermentable cause larger yeast cakes (or trubs) than others. Cheers Argon.


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## Pollux (17/9/10)

I often throw together a keg filler by combining 6 * 3L coles brand bottles of juice (either apple, apple/blackcurrant or a blend of those two) and just a couple of my baggies of US05 (I buy it by the 500g block and split it into 7g bags when I open it.

It's not Bulmers or Magners, but I'd call it better than that 5 seeds shit.


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## hazard (17/9/10)

practicalfool said:


> Ive got some cider fermenting - wih airlocks - only thing is, no bloody krausen. Fermentation activity is vigorous. The thing is bubbling madly for the past two days at 16 degrees. Using white wine yeast again. Can see all those bubbles risigthrough the juice like they all need to get somewhere real fast. There is ~ 7-8 mm of yeast grub on the bottom of the carboys.
> Using normal LL apple and pear juice mix this time, OG was 1044.
> 
> Qns:
> ...


I made a cider last weekend - 21L of Berri Apple/pear juice, plus 300g extract boiled with some vanilla, cloves and cinammon (based on a Bribie recipe i think). Used some 1056 slurry I had (was originally Safale US05, but I harvested the yeast) and after 3 days has a nice full krausen. I'm using glad wrap, there is 23L of liquid in a 30L fermenter, and krausen is right up to the top of the fermenter. Used US05 slurry because:
a. that is what I had
b. I would prefer something less than totally dry so kept away from wine or champaigne yeast.

oh, I also added some old packets of yeast to the boil to act as a nutrient. So my big krausen could be due to:
1. US05 yeast
2. additional yeast hulls, helping fermentation along
3. additional malt added to the cider

I tried to make a Coopers SA recently with recultured Coppers yeast. I didn't put in enough hops, and the taste is doominated pear esters (not badactually, but not what i was aiming for!), so this might be the best thing for a cider - will try Coppers yeast next time.


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## pk.sax (17/9/10)

Hmnnnn.... Might have to give ale yeast a go on the next one 

I particularly like the easy fermentability of cider, no stuck fermentations so far, very visible activity. Easy peasy really. Wine yeas does give the temp tolerance tho. Still, worth experimenting new yeast


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## Airgead (17/9/10)

practicalfool said:


> Aha, good to see its consistent. Was differen from the last one I made in this carboy - cloudy cider, so was a bit puzzled by the differences. Maybe someday I'll chance upon an explanation of why some fermentable cause larger yeast cakes (or trubs) than others. Cheers Argon.



Its the proteins (or lack of them). Beer throws a good head because the proteins stabilise the foam and allow it to last long enough to form a head. Clear apple juice has very little in it to stabilise a foam so there is no head on a finsihed cider and no krausen on a fermenting one. The little bits of apple pulp in a cloudy juice help stabilise the foam so a cloudy juice will have a karausen while fermenting but once it finishes and drops clear the cider won't hold a head.

The difference in the size of the yeast cake depends on how much the yeast grows and how well it flocculates. Poor floculaters tend to have a less compact (and hence larger looking) yeast cake.

Cheers
Dave


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## pk.sax (18/9/10)

Hmnnnnnnnn... Tha poses me more and more things to research into to make a different cider. Perhaps craft one that retains some head while retaining the lightness. Maybe add some proteins from a beer to it as you point them resp for retaining the head Dave. When I work up the goods to do an AG batch, maybe I'll skim some of the protein foam off and add to a batch of cider  At any rate, I will have some cider to bring along end of this month


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## Airgead (18/9/10)

practicalfool said:


> Hmnnnnnnnn... Tha poses me more and more things to research into to make a different cider. Perhaps craft one that retains some head while retaining the lightness. Maybe add some proteins from a beer to it as you point them resp for retaining the head Dave. When I work up the goods to do an AG batch, maybe I'll skim some of the protein foam off and add to a batch of cider  At any rate, I will have some cider to bring along end of this month



I'm not sure that adding skimmed trub from a beer will be all that good for the taste of the cider. Maybe adding some malt would be a better way...

Most ciders don't hold a head so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Actually, beer is about the only drink that will hold a head - sparkling wines, ciders, perrys... no head.

Cheers
Dave


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## pk.sax (18/9/10)

Kk... I'll taste anything I put in there before I do. I've read here abt ppl adding dry ME to their cider, but cider for me is absolutely crisp and light. Something u can chug a half litre of down without a pause. I def don't want any heaviness in a cider, juicy fluffiness is a different matter. Hmnnn.


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## pk.sax (24/9/10)

Current batch of apple and pear juice cider seems to be stalling.

Used 5.4 litres of apple and 3 litres of pear juice, no preservatives or sugar added.
EC-1118 white wine yeast, rehydrated. Used approx more than 1 gram dry/3 litres, allowed to feed on a bit of juice and warm water before pitching. Vigorous fermentation for 5-6 days, been more than 10 days now. All yeast and cloudiness had settled out without refrigeration in the last 2 days.

OG= 1044
FG= 1010

Qn: why the higher FG? Is pear juice the culprit making it finish higher?! I've stirred up the yeast and left it to ferment long but is that an effect of adding pear juice? It's not tasting particularly sweet but isn't as dry as the last cider. Anybody know what's happening?
Btw, temps always 16 degrees.


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## Airgead (24/9/10)

practicalfool said:


> Current batch of apple and pear juice cider seems to be stalling.
> 
> Used 5.4 litres of apple and 3 litres of pear juice, no preservatives or sugar added.
> EC-1118 white wine yeast, rehydrated. Used approx more than 1 gram dry/3 litres, allowed to feed on a bit of juice and warm water before pitching. Vigorous fermentation for 5-6 days, been more than 10 days now. All yeast and cloudiness had settled out without refrigeration in the last 2 days.
> ...



Never used pear juice but I have heard it leaves things sweeter. You've used a fair bit of pear as well so that could explain it. My other guess would be maybe lack of nutrients at the beginning?

Cheers
Dave


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## pk.sax (24/9/10)

Hmnnn. Possible, I'll keep watching it. Yeast didn't settle out during the day today and the airlock has me believe that its been making more CO2. I did add the recommended mat of nutrient in the beginning so.... Hmnnn

Ur right tho, its a lot of pear, it was on spl  50/50 apple pear juice, I added more apple to make up the volume. Thnx. Who knows, by the time it dries out I might have enough bottles again! Hehe


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## Airgead (24/9/10)

practicalfool said:


> Hmnnn. Possible, I'll keep watching it. Yeast didn't settle out during the day today and the airlock has me believe that its been making more CO2. I did add the recommended mat of nutrient in the beginning so.... Hmnnn
> 
> Ur right tho, its a lot of pear, it was on spl  50/50 apple pear juice, I added more apple to make up the volume. Thnx. Who knows, by the time it dries out I might have enough bottles again! Hehe



Interested to know how it comes out. Pear is on my list of things to experiment with next year. I was planning to split my batch and do half with pear and half all apple. I'll use juice from the same crush for both batches so the only difference will be the pear. I was thinking maybe 10% pear though.

This is the difficulty with doing cider from apples. You only get one shot at it each year.

Cheers
Dave


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## pk.sax (24/9/10)

I'll keep it posted here. I did notice that yeast in the carboy that had less headspace didn't settle out like the other one did. Maybe the extra oxygento start gave the one I tested a bigger kickstart! -shrug- well, I'll find out soon enough  wish u were in melb, could've tried it urself, uncarbonated of course 
Just an interesting thing, the cider I tried to make with cloudy apple juice actually has turned out more like an apple wine, apfelmost more like it. A few friends tried it last weekend and remarked that it absolutely cleaned up the palate. I hope some apple shines through with aging, we tasted a lot of fruitiness in it but no apple :S


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## hazard (29/9/10)

Pollux said:


> I often throw together a keg filler by combining 6 * 3L coles brand bottles of juice (either apple, apple/blackcurrant or a blend of those two) and just a couple of my baggies of US05 (I buy it by the 500g block and split it into 7g bags when I open it.
> 
> It's not Bulmers or Magners, but I'd call it better than that 5 seeds shit.


Hi Pollux, what sort of FG do you get from US05? How long does it take? I've been fermenting my cider (refer to post #31 above) for 2 .5 weeks now and it seems stuck at 1010. I'm guessing that US-05 doesn't ferment as dry as wine yeast, but don't want to guess wrong and finish up with bottle bombs!!


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## pk.sax (4/10/10)

Gravity was 1010 on 24 september

bottled yesterday, 11 days from last reading, gravity was STILL 1010. And yes, I did shake (not stir) and all that, checked yesterday after a few warmer days just to be sure. It was 1010 in both carboys, the one I checked last time and the one that has not been disturbed at all since pitching.

Yeast has picked up the priming dextrose already and I can see trub settling in the bottles slowly. It had all settled out in the carboys over the long fermentation and I could basically read a book through it, same with what I bottled, no chilling or finings required at all.

So, I suppose the pear juice does have a fair bit more un-fermentable sugars than apple juice. Anyway, bottled a crate-full and have to wait for the carbonation to happen  Didn't detect any off flavours in the sample I tasted while bottling.


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## BjornJ (4/10/10)

Looking forward to hearing how this one turns out.
I like pear cider, wouldn;t mind making a mix of apple and pear if that ends with higher FG than apple-only cider.
I saw someone say that ciders could be considered more lagers than ales, does it make sense to use a lager yeast and lower temp when fermenting a cider?

thanks
Bjorn


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## bum (4/10/10)

See the "Fermentation" section of Thirsty's post.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=32702


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## pk.sax (4/10/10)

> Fermentation??
> Use a nice white wine yeast. Dont use EC118 (champagne) it will be harsh and nasty. She suspects the Wyeast cider varieties might be a "safe" choice for home use.
> Ferment cool at 12-13
> If it rings your bells, stirring up the yeast lees every day of two will give you that nice yeasty/bready/autolyic taste you get in whites and sparkling sometimes (yum)



I've been using white wine yeast up until now, haven't been giving the yeast lees any regular stirs... only when the yeast all drops out and I suspect incomplete fermentation.... Not sure I want bready flavours in my cider either.. hmnnn

12-13 degrees.... now there is something I haven't tried. Mine usually stayed at 16, occasionally going to 18 on a warmer day. This latest one finished at 20 degrees because of the warm weather. I'll give a cold temp a try next time I'm making some, thanks  the yeast packet claims tolerance anywhere from 10 to 30 degrees.... so, yeah.. it should technically work.. hehe.

BTW, my apple/pear cider wasn't as tart out of the fermenter an the cloudy apple one I made. I hope the finished thing is somewhat that way too. Do you happen to know what oxidising the apple juice does to its taste bum? I mean, I can always source some H2O2 and rapid oxidise my juice before pitching if it provides any benefits.


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## bum (4/10/10)

No idea. All I know is that it darkens the finished product. Cut up some apple pieces and leave them out to go brown - taste difference should be similar(ish), if any.


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## pscarazza79 (16/10/10)

Hi guys, im getting ready to to do a apple/pear cider from store bought juice and am using wyeast 4766, it reccomends 21 to 24 degrees, for fermentation, can you ferment slightly lower say around 16 to 18 or will the yeast struggle. cant seem to find any info any help would be great from someone who uses 4766.


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## pk.sax (17/10/10)

Hmnnnn, I haven't tried 4766 yet, hav a pkt in the fridge that I mean to use when I make a big batch.

Apple and pear turns ou quite well though  my previous cider attempt was it and it has gone crystal clear in the bottles without any chilling. I can read fine print through it!

Gl mate, tell u how you go when you do  hopefully someone can answer your question. I've fermented with white wine yeast @ 15-16 degrees and the results age been tart and winelike tastes with apple flavour and sweetness. Need to give wine yeast a go at higher temps to see how it affects it.


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## Airgead (17/10/10)

pats said:


> Hi guys, im getting ready to to do a apple/pear cider from store bought juice and am using wyeast 4766, it reccomends 21 to 24 degrees, for fermentation, can you ferment slightly lower say around 16 to 18 or will the yeast struggle. cant seem to find any info any help would be great from someone who uses 4766.



I use 4766 for my ciders but they are fresh juice not store bought. On my fresh juice coders I find it gives a very good result but I seem to remember someone saying that it didn't do so well on store bought. There was a thread a while back in this section discussing the various yeasts. I think Brewer Pete started it.

If you do use 4766, I find it gives best results fermented quite cold. I usually ferment at 15-16C.

Cheers
Dave


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## manticle (17/10/10)

pats said:


> Hi guys, im getting ready to to do a apple/pear cider from store bought juice and am using wyeast 4766, it reccomends 21 to 24 degrees, for fermentation, can you ferment slightly lower say around 16 to 18 or will the yeast struggle. cant seem to find any info any help would be great from someone who uses 4766.



I fermented my recent 4766 around 16. no worries - just be patient.


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## pscarazza79 (18/10/10)

Thanks for the info re 4766 will give it a go at 16 degrees at post back on results.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (19/10/10)

Done one with a french champagne yeast. And it isn't as dry as a the proverbial forum fodder.

I did cheat - got a cheap kit cider on clearance from coles and added in 6L of juice to a 15L batch after boiling.

Tasted it from fermenter in doing FG reading. Tastes excellent. Looking forward to tasting it as fizzy junk.

Goomba


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## proudscum (19/10/10)

Has anyone used "PRESHAFRUIT" juices they are not cheap but are cold pressed and the taste is mind blowing.Granny smith tastes like drinking the whole apple.
Just a thought.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (19/10/10)

proudscum said:


> Has anyone used "PRESHAFRUIT" juices they are not cheap but are cold pressed and the taste is mind blowing.Granny smith tastes like drinking the whole apple.
> Just a thought.



My brother (who is relatively new to brewing) tried one bottle and some cinnamon in a beer.

Chucked it in after primary without boiling and it introduced infection. So either the juice or cinnamon did it (or both), and we then noted that the juice isn't pasteurised, so it could be capable of introducing an infection.

Goomba


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## proudscum (19/10/10)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> My brother (who is relatively new to brewing) tried one bottle and some cinnamon in a beer.
> 
> Chucked it in after primary without boiling and it introduced infection. So either the juice or cinnamon did it (or both), and we then noted that the juice isn't pasteurised, so it could be capable of introducing an infection.
> 
> Goomba




Good point.you may be able to do a simple pasteurizing process to kill off wild yeast etc but not boil it as that defeats the purpose of using a great base product to start with.The joys of playing with live beasties.Could you also use campden tablets to fix this problem?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (19/10/10)

proudscum said:


> Good point.you may be able to do a simple pasteurizing process to kill off wild yeast etc but not boil it as that defeats the purpose of using a great base product to start with.The joys of playing with live beasties.Could you also use campden tablets to fix this problem?



No idea (see your signature).

I'm of 2 minds whether boiling does ruin flavour, but that's okay.

You'd be better off using real apples - for the cost and at least the yeast residing in apples is what naturally occurs in cider. I'm going to pick up a kg of different varieties next time and do a "multi variety" cider with a base juice and the apples to broaden the palate (kind of like doing a wide malt profile on beer).

Goomba


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## The_Duck (19/10/10)

proudscum said:


> Has anyone used "PRESHAFRUIT" juices they are not cheap but are cold pressed and the taste is mind blowing.Granny smith tastes like drinking the whole apple.
> Just a thought.




I use the Preshafruit juice to adjust the balance in my ciders once kegged. It is clear and has no nasties in it. Not worried about kicking off fermentation again as it only goes in the keg after it has been cold crashed/conditioned and stuck in the keg fridge.


Also I use juice from Wildabout Fruit. The apples for their juice are sourced from about 5 mins away from my place and the juice plant is in Wandin VIC, about 15mins the other direction. I buy their seconds from the farm gate (bad labels, poor filtration etc) for $18 for 12 litres. Juice has no additives whatsoever and is flash (heat) pasteurised to kill bacteria.

The ONLY drawback I have is that I have no control over the varietal mix used to create the juice.

Having said that I am hoping to build an apple scratter and a press over the summer, ready for the 2011 season. My old method using a cafe juicer was a PITA.

Someone asked about sterilising juice from apples if doing the cider from scratch. I drop the apples in a Milton bath for 30 mins to kill any bacteria and then wash in clean water before juicing. Never had any infections in any batches I have made. Not sure that technique would work for woody spices tho.... maybe boil for 10 mins then dump the lot in the juice ? Maybe boiling water in a coffee plunger would also work ?



Duck


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## beerbrewer76543 (20/10/10)

Woolworths (in Perth at least) have Apple and Pear juice 3L x2 on special, save about $4... That's almost half price!

edit: special is on this week


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## dave_h (1/11/10)

Well, to continue on from my OP.

Not sure if ive got a stalled fermentation.

The gravity readings were;

OG 29/9/10 1046
4/10/10 1034 (temp 15.6) bubbling away very nicely
7/10/10 1030(temp 13.2)
11/10/10 1025 (temp 13.8)
20/10/10 1025 (temp 13.5)
1/11/10 1023

I gave it a good stir on the 20/10/10 (didnt introduce air to the mix) and went away for work. Got back last night and the gravity has not dropped much.

I used a mix of 50/50 apple pear juice (i think, as ive thrown out the containers), some guys were saying that the pears help to keep the FG up but I think 1023 is still pretty high. I also added in 500g of lactose which will keep the FG up a bit.

Is it worth chucking some more yeast in (Saf 04). I will be bottling and would naturaly like to avoid bottle bombs...

Anyone got any thoughts?

Thanks


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## pk.sax (1/11/10)

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...st_Ferment_Test

^ that. I got 1010 with abt 30% pear but you have lactose AND pear 50%. :S


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## dave_h (1/11/10)

Great link, thanks mate,

I kind of think its done but will do the test to make sure. (also got an ale that has stopped a bit higher than expected, will do that as well).

Shame i did not know that pear did not ferment as much, only got 3% cider, well that means the misses wont get drunk so quick......


Cheers


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## SpillsMostOfIt (1/11/10)

The_Duck said:


> I use the Preshafruit juice to adjust the balance in my ciders once kegged. It is clear and has no nasties in it.



(Snipped to conserve electrons.)

There was an article on the ABC's LandLine program a few months ago about this juice. They use absolutely insane amounts of pressure to kill off any biological nasties in the juice while preserving the taste of the fruit. The manufacturers waffle about it here.

I've never tried it because I'm a tight-arse and when not using apples from the orchard, buy juice solely on price.


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## manticle (1/11/10)

I just put down a simple cider with 50% el cheapo safeway longlife (no preservatives so I guess it's pasteurised, 2.79 for 3 L) and 50 % blend of various expensive juices - Berri, some organic stuff, some tassie stuff and some preshafruit.

Made up to 24 L with recultured 4766 and a few hundred grams of lactose.

Last simple one I did was 100% el cheapo and worked well. Let's see what extra dimension this one gets.


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## stux (7/11/10)

I kegged a cider a few weeks ago,

It's really lovely.

At first it had a hint of bitterness, but now it has developed a subtle sweetness and is really clear and crisp.

I used 20L of fresh bilpin fruit juice (3L bottles) from a local fruit store

Boiled up a tablespoon of bakers yeast and added that and basic yeast nutrient to the juice in a fermenter, then added White Labs 720 Sweet Mead Yeast (low attenuation, high flocculation, crisp flavour)

OG circa 1.050
FG 0.998!!

Fermented at 22C exactly for about 6 weeks, then crash chilled to 4C for a day (the yeast had flocculated a lot, but id knocked the yeast right out), then kegged and carbonated.

It was dropping about a point per week in the end, but the final week there was no change (hence legging time)

In the last 4 weeks i was taking weekly hydrometer/taste samples. In the latter stages of the fermentation (conditioning) the cider really improved and lost any scrumpy type flavours 

I've now washed the remaining yeast and separated it 4 ways, planning on using it in a mulberry wine, and later on another cider, this time we'll grab some whole apples from bilpin and juice them ourselves


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## manticle (7/11/10)

What have you got to juice them with? Personal experience but without a press, apples can be hard to get good extraction from.


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## Phoney (7/11/10)

Stux said:


> I've now washed the remaining yeast and separated it 4 ways, planning on using it in a mulberry wine, and later on another cider, this time we'll grab some whole apples from bilpin and juice them ourselves




Bugger that. Look up Cedar Creek orchard at Thirlmere. They regularly press apples to bottle & sell the juice.. you've probably seen their juices at fruit shops etc. Give them a call and find out which day they're pressing. THen you just turn up with a cube/drum and they'll fill it up with fresh pressed unpasteurized juice for $1.20 a litre. They can Keep it in a coolroom for up to a week for you to come and collect.


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## stux (7/11/10)

manticle said:


> What have you got to juice them with? Personal experience but without a press, apples can be hard to get good extraction from.



I have a fairly powerful juicer, it's not a press but makes a nice apple juice


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## stux (7/11/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Bugger that. Look up Cedar Creek orchard at Thirlmere. They regularly press apples to bottle & sell the juice.. you've probably seen their juices at fruit shops etc. Give them a call and find out which day they're pressing. THen you just turn up with a cube/drum and they'll fill it up with fresh pressed unpasteurized juice for $1.20 a litre. They can Keep it in a coolroom for up to a week for you to come and collect.



I might look into that, the difference is thirlmere is twice as far away as bilpin for me


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## pk.sax (9/11/10)

So far I've used white wine yeast to ferment my ciders. While very nice and fresh, the ciders have been heavily affected by the taste the yeast gives it. The more flavoursome juice like cloudy apple produced a really tasty drop but with a simple supermarket juice it comes out tasting partially like goon. It is still tasty, but the wine like taste is almost too dominant. As I said, that went beautifully with the cloudy juice. Next up is using the wyeast cider yeast, when I get to it at least. Anybody ever done a comparison of ciders brewed with different yeasts? My cider pours with a thick head like champagne and a little stays with it almost till the end, probably a result of enthusiastic carbonation (never a gusher yet). The carbon bite might actually be contributing a bit to the sharpness.

I remember Fasty used some brigalow ale yeast and reported it tasting a bit like beer. Interested in knowing some more actual experimental results. I'll post when I get around to doing another cider.


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## manticle (9/11/10)

I usually use white wine yeast but was given a slant of 4766 which I'm usinmg for the second time around now. All different juices used in each though so comparison is hard. To my palate the 4766 leaves a bit of sweetness which the wine yeast doesn't.


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## bum (10/11/10)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> There was an article on the ABC's LandLine program a few months ago about this juice. They use absolutely insane amounts of pressure to kill off any biological nasties in the juice while preserving the taste of the fruit. The manufacturers waffle about it here.
> 
> I've never tried it because I'm a tight-arse and when not using apples from the orchard, buy juice solely on price.


I recently did a 2L test batch with Preshafruit Pink Lady juice and it is pretty great. It is easily the most "apple-y" cider I've done. If the wind is blowing in the right direction and you're facing true north (not magnetic north) you can taste the difference between the skin and the flesh of the apple in this cider. Almost impressed enough to do a full batch (but, uh, I might need a grant in order to get the ball rolling).


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## Reindeer (13/11/10)

Hi guys, 

First post after loads of reading and I've just realised how much more there is to this whole home brewing business  

I brewed my first cider batch form a can of Brigalow I brought from Coles. I replaced some of the water with 6l of Apple & Pear juice and added the yest and nutrients as supplied with the can. Fermentation was insane (compared to my first stout that showed no/little signs of fermenting) and after 3 weeks, I bottled it. I've been pretty impressed with the result. It's not Magners or Bulmers, but a very drinkable, slightly dry cider, with a fruity taste.

I've read somewhere that you can add Apple or Pear Schnapps top enhance the taste. Has anyone tried it?

I going to try Somerset Gold by msheridan69 this weekend, but was planning on using the packet Brigalow Yeast I has left over from a previous brew/shopping trip. Is it better to use US-05, over the Brigalow yeast?


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## The Giant (17/11/10)

If you didnt want to make a full batch, would it be possible to just buy a couple of 3l jugs of apple, juice add some more sugar and yeast and let it ferment?

Wouldnt be great, but my fermenter is full and was keen just to see how real juice would turn out. Someone suggested it to me in another post.

3l just add maybe 100g sugar, 1/3 packet of yeast and ferment away.
Then just bottle as normal for carbonation??


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## Airgead (17/11/10)

The Giant said:


> If you didnt want to make a full batch, would it be possible to just buy a couple of 3l jugs of apple, juice add some more sugar and yeast and let it ferment?
> 
> Wouldnt be great, but my fermenter is full and was keen just to see how real juice would turn out. Someone suggested it to me in another post.
> 
> ...



That's definitely possible. You don't even need the extra sugar. Most juices have enough in them to give you a 5-6% cider without anything added.

Cheers
Dave


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## pk.sax (17/11/10)

The Giant said:


> If you didnt want to make a full batch, would it be possible to just buy a couple of 3l jugs of apple, juice add some more sugar and yeast and let it ferment?
> 
> Wouldnt be great, but my fermenter is full and was keen just to see how real juice would turn out. Someone suggested it to me in another post.
> 
> ...



do this:
1) Pour out a cup's worth of juice, two if you want
2) tip in a little (a few grams does it) yeast nutrient and 4-5 grams of dry yeast
3) cap and put in 15-18C place.
4) check and release pressure everyday (or alternatively, you can glad wrap the mouth of the bottle/bung and airlock it/oztop it)
5) Check gravity in 5-6 days

No need for extra sugar, juice should take you clear of 1040 SG. Use preservative free juice.


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## The Giant (17/11/10)

Excellent, thanks guys
I'm assuming the yeast nutrient can bet bought at ur local brew shop as well

Should i bottle with sugar as per normal for 3 weeks for carbonation?


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## Airgead (17/11/10)

The Giant said:


> Excellent, thanks guys
> I'm assuming the yeast nutrient can bet bought at ur local brew shop as well
> 
> Should i bottle with sugar as per normal for 3 weeks for carbonation?



Yes and Yes. Nutrient comes in many types. Most LHBS's keep the most basic which is Diamonium Phosphate (DAP). You can also take a few pinches of bakers yeast and boil it for a few minutes in a little water to kill it and break the cells open. That makes a good nutrient but you have to make sure you kill all the cells.

Cheers
Dave


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## Phoney (17/11/10)

manticle said:


> I usually use white wine yeast but was given a slant of 4766 which I'm usinmg for the second time around now. All different juices used in each though so comparison is hard. To my palate the 4766 leaves a bit of sweetness which the wine yeast doesn't.



I disagree, I made two identical ciders (Franko's recipe) one with 4766 and one with WW yeast. The 4766 was much more drier and tart and in my (and everyone else who tasted it) opinions it was far superior than the WW - which turned out a bit sweeter.


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## Airgead (17/11/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> I disagree, I made two identical ciders (Franko's recipe) one with 4766 and one with WW yeast. The 4766 was much more drier and tart and in my (and everyone else who tasted it) opinions it was far superior than the WW - which turned out a bit sweeter.



I find the 4766 also gives a dry and tart cider. It does depend a lot on the apples you use though as I have also had 4766 ciders that were slightly sweet. 

It may enhance the tartness present in the juice so if you use all sweet apples it comes out with no tartness and therefore tastes sweeter and if you use tart apples (I used 40% granny smith) it comes out tart. 

The 4766 certainly enhances the fruitiness of the cider - much more apple and fruit nose and flavour over wine yeasts.

The sweeter ciders I tested also used a percentage of pear which may have made the difference as well.

Cheers
Dave


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## [email protected] (17/11/10)

This was my second Cider attempt

6L of Just Juice Apple Juice (long life - plastic bottles)
7.2L of Berri - Apple Juice (long life - plastic bottles)
tsp of yeast nutrient
150g of LDME
Wyeast 4766 smack pack

Fermented around 16 -18C for 11 days - 1054 to 1009 then bottled
Bubbled like crazy the whole time, not even a hint of a krausen.

Had a month at room temps, they are now living in cold storage. 
After a couple of weeks in there its really starting to come good.
Good fruity apple taste, crisp but not too dry.
Should be even more pleasing come summer time.

I am interested in trying a cider with cultured coopers bottle yeast too?!


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## stux (17/11/10)

Beer4U said:


> This was my second Cider attempt
> 
> 6L of Just Juice Apple Juice (long life - plastic bottles)
> 7.2L of Berri - Apple Juice (long life - plastic bottles)
> ...



I would be concerned about exploding bottles :-\

Did the gravity actually stop at 1009, or did you just decide it was finished?

Unless you plan to keep the bottles under cold storage the whole time in which case its a good way to retain residual sweetness


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## [email protected] (17/11/10)

Stux said:


> I would be concerned about exploding bottles :-\
> 
> Did the gravity actually stop at 1009, or did you just decide it was finished?
> 
> Unless you plan to keep the bottles under cold storage the whole time in which case its a good way to retain residual sweetness



It bubbled like crazy for the first 6 days. 

SG was stable for the last 3 days.

EDIT : just looking at my notes - They were stored at 18 - 20C for 35 days , so if there was going to be bombs i would say they would have blown then.

They are not overcarbed at all so im pretty sure fermentation was complete.


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## manticle (17/11/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> I disagree, I made two identical ciders (Franko's recipe) one with 4766 and one with WW yeast. The 4766 was much more drier and tart and in my (and everyone else who tasted it) opinions it was far superior than the WW - which turned out a bit sweeter.



You disagree that my cider turned out with a bit of sweetness?

I had a portion of pears and Nashis in there too - as I said comparison of the yeasts is difficult when using different juice/fruit compositions each time.


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## Phoney (17/11/10)

manticle said:


> You disagree that my cider turned out with a bit of sweetness?



Not at all, I disagreed with:



manticle said:


> To my palate the 4766 leaves a bit of sweetness which the wine yeast doesn't.




If you used an identical recipe the WW yeast will leave more sweetness.


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## brett mccluskey (17/11/10)

practicalfool said:


> Current batch of apple and pear juice cider seems to be stalling.
> 
> Used 5.4 litres of apple and 3 litres of pear juice, no preservatives or sugar added.
> EC-1118 white wine yeast, rehydrated. Used approx more than 1 gram dry/3 litres, allowed to feed on a bit of juice and warm water before pitching. Vigorous fermentation for 5-6 days, been more than 10 days now. All yeast and cloudiness had settled out without refrigeration in the last 2 days.
> ...






Airgead said:


> Never used pear juice but I have heard it leaves things sweeter. You've used a fair bit of pear as well so that could explain it. My other guess would be maybe lack of nutrients at the beginning?
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


Pear juice is sweeter than apple,and it's also neutral in flavour.Thats why it's the juice in canned fruit that's "in juice" I live on an apple and pear orchard,and i'll find out about the differing sugar contents tomorrow,From the "slave master" (manager) :beer:


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## manticle (17/11/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Not at all, I disagreed with:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's why my qualifier is that it's hard to compare with different juice bases.

I guess becuase I didn't add lactose to the 4766 version, while the ww yeast version had 500g I was expecting drier (wasn't upset with the results - none have been over sweet). I now have a variety of store bought juices fermenting with some reserved 4766 (actually in CC). This one has some lactose too but no pear so we'll see how it goes.

I probably should have said ' to my palate the 4766 cider is sweeter' rather than suggested anything definite about the yeast when my experience of it is not vast. My experience of WW yeast (used for every other cider I've ever done besides my first brigalow) is that it tends to finish dry.

Will be trying the WY sweet mead yeast soon too.


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## InCider (17/11/10)

Alright you two... :lol:


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## manticle (17/11/10)

I don't trust boys who hang out behind bike sheds.

Many of them wear lycra.


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## pk.sax (17/11/10)

errr... with my otherwise chaotic brewday recently, I did manage to put down a cloudy apple cider with some US05...

Next I will do the same with some 4766

I still have a few bottles of the one I did with white wine yeast

In all of them, everything would be the same except for the yeasts used and the temp the yeast packet dictates. Same juice brand, same nutrient... Well, as consistent as coles juice gets. We can do some side by side tastings then


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## Chookers (22/11/10)

Hey I just bought a 2lt Bottle of Nudie Cloudy Apple Juice @ $5.99, says its 100% fresh apple juice (is not reconstituted), no preservatives or added vitamins, does not contain anything else other than apple juice. I also bought 3 cans of Goulburn Valley Pear juice @$2.59 per can total $13.77.

They had another apple juice which said it had been cold pasteurized? not heat treated so retains the apple flavour.

Has anyone used these to make cider, what was the result and would these work? 

Do I really need to use pectinaise?? what happens if I dont use it??


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## stux (22/11/10)

Chookers said:


> Hey I just bought a 2lt Bottle of Nudie Cloudy Apple Juice @ $5.99, says its 100% fresh apple juice (is not reconstituted), no preservatives or added vitamins, does not contain anything else other than apple juice. I also bought 3 cans of Goulburn Valley Pear juice @$2.59 per can total $13.77.
> 
> They had another apple juice which said it had been cold pasteurized? not heat treated so retains the apple flavour.
> 
> ...



I don't think you need to use pectinaise with apple juice. Don't know about Pear Juice. I think the pectinaise helps break down the cell walls to get the fruit juice out for fermenting.


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## Chookers (22/11/10)

Stux said:


> I don't think you need to use pectinaise with apple juice. Don't know about Pear Juice. I think the pectinaise helps break down the cell walls to get the fruit juice out for fermenting.




I thought it was a clearing agent, like the pectin makes it cloudy or something?


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## stux (22/11/10)

Chookers said:


> I thought it was a clearing agent, like the pectin makes it cloudy or something?






http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/glossary.asp said:


> Pectic Enzyme:
> The enzymes such as pectinase that hydrolyze the large pectin molecules.
> 
> Pectin:
> ...




I think I was getting confused... It might be you need to boil to release the sugar, and then you need to use pectic enzyme to get rid of the jelly 




http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/advbasic.asp said:


> The Basic Concept of Winemaking
> 
> Conceptually, winemaking is quite simple. You combine a flavored juice with sugar, acid, tannin, and yeast, *remove any pectin present*, and allow the yeast to do what it naturally does with as little exposure to air and contaminates as possible. When the yeast is done, the result is wine. Conceptually, that's all there is to it. In reality, it's a bit more involved. There are subtleties to consider -- like proportions, for example, and dead yeast cells, pectin haze, suspended particulants, and a host of other things. Still, it's a simple concept.
> 
> ...



So, basically, if Pectin is present in the fruitjuice you are trying to ferment, then you need to remove the pectin with a pectic enzyme.



http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/problems.asp said:


> Pectin Haze: The most common cause of a haze in wine is the presence of pectin, which forms gelatinous solutions in the wine. The problem is aggravated if the must is initially boiled to extract flavor, color or both. To check if a haze is pectin in origin, add 3-4 fluid ounces of methylated spirit to a fluid ounce of wine. If jelly-like clots or strings form, then the problem is most likely pectin and should be treated.
> 
> To treat the wine, for each gallon of wine draw off one cup of wine and stir into it teaspoon of pectic enzyme. Set the treated sample in a warm place (70-80 F.) and stir hourly for four hours. Strain the sample through sterilized muslin cloth and add to the bulk of the wine. Leave the wine at 70 F. for 4-5 days. The haze should clear. If it does not, strain the wine through sterilized muslin cloth and then through a vacuum-pumped filter. If it still does not clarify, the problem was misdiagnosed.
> 
> Pectin hazes can be prevented by adding pectic enzymes to the must 12 hours before adding the wine yeast. One teaspoon of enzyme per gallon of must is usually enough, but some musts require 1-1/2 teaspoons.



Country Wine recipes will generally tell you how to extract the 'flavour' from your base ingredients to create the must, and they also say if you need pectic enzymes or not.


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## Chookers (22/11/10)

Ok, well I will get some Pectinaise then.. and I'll have to get somemore apple juice now because I start to drink the Nudie and it wont be enough now.. :lol: 

I must say I was surprised to find a juice which is not made from concentrate and does not contain any added water or vitamins/preservatives.. Im pretty impressed by it.

The Goulburn Valley tinned pear juice is also 100% juice, and its Aussie made too.. I'll have to buy more tins aswell cause you know Im gonna drink one of those too.  

I plan on making apple beer as soon as one of my demi's is freed up. and Cyser.. (is that right apple mead?) I would like to try my hand at cider too.. there are too many recipes and not enough Demijohns or bottles for that matter.. so Im going to have to prioritise.


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## manticle (22/11/10)

The cold pasteurised stuff is probably preshafruit. Very expensive but lovely.

I have a cider I bottled on Saturday which uses a variety of juices including the nudie, a 100% organic tasmanian apple one, some preshafruit and some cheaper preserve free juice.

I didn't use any pectinase. I think it helps clarify and also helps with slow cool fermentation - something used a lot in french cidermaking. I've never used it in any of my ciders so nothing drastic will happen.


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## argon (22/11/10)

I just acquired an expensive juicer on the weekend that was given to a friend... used about twice and is unwanted by him.

The plan is to grab a few kg apples form the local markets that sell for $1kg and top up with Berri Juice or similar. 

I figure that the juicer makes about 500ml from 5 apples which equals a little under a kg. So maybe 10L of fresh juice and 10L of bottled juice.

Anyone got any experience... special tips for using fresh made juice?


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## manticle (22/11/10)

As you seem to have already decided - do a small batch and see if the juicer is up to it.

Have tried to do full batches before and seriously the most pain I've had while brewing. Each time has resulted in necessarily topping up with store-bought.

Select a variety of apples - grannies, pink ladys etc. You want acid, sweeteness, tannic if you can. Chuck in a few pears for sweetness.

I like to allow a crust to form for a day or so before pitching. I rack from this crust then pitch. I don't use campden/sulphites - I compensate for this by making an active starter with my yeast and pitching. Do this inside one of your juice bottles .

Use some yeast nutrient. Ferment cool. Cold condition.

Traditional cidermaking uses a scratter to break the apple up into small pieces and then a press to extract juice. Juicers I've used have been pretty inneficient at extracting juice. I will be sticking to store bought juice until i have built myself a press (can use my grape crusher for the scratting).


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## argon (22/11/10)

Thanks manticle... My first batch of bottled juice cider turned out nicely, but thought cause I now have access to pretty good juicer thati'd give it a shot. I added nutrient, but didn't do an active starter last time. I'll take on your advice and only do a small batch to start. If i like the results., then I'll do a full size in the future.

The juicer is pretty damn easy to use. Don't have to cut the apples. They just go in whole and spit out juice on one side and the dry solids the other. 500ml took all of about 30secs. Can't imagine it being too hard to make 10L or so.


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## manticle (22/11/10)

What's the model? Might be easier than making myself a press (as much fun and frustration making a press might entail).


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## Chookers (22/11/10)

argon said:


> Thanks manticle... My first batch of bottled juice cider turned out nicely, but thought cause I now have access to pretty good juicer thati'd give it a shot. I added nutrient, but didn't do an active starter last time. I'll take on your advice and only do a small batch to start. If i like the results., then I'll do a full size in the future.
> 
> The juicer is pretty damn easy to use. Don't have to cut the apples. They just go in whole and spit out juice on one side and the dry solids the other. 500ml took all of about 30secs. Can't imagine it being too hard to make 10L or so.




is it a Breville Juice fountain?? they do whole apples. Got to leave juice for awhile when you use the extractor, as it separates. If I dont drink my juice straight away I end up with a brown layer on top and clear juice underneath (carrot, Orange, Celery and Apple for sweetness. Or Carrot and Celery juice makes a nice shake if you blend it with icecream).


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## Whiteferret (22/11/10)

manticle said:


> I like to allow a crust to form for a day or so before pitching. I rack from this crust then pitch. I don't use campden/sulphites - I compensate for this by making an active starter with my yeast and pitching. Do this inside one of your juice bottles .
> 
> Use some yeast nutrient. Ferment cool. Cold condition.




do you leave the crust behind?
I'd think so

I know how sulfites dont agree with you manticle what about starsan to sanitize the apple pieces before I jucie/press them plus I've read on here that it is also a good yeast nutrient after its done its job or do you think it would keep working into the ferment killing off the good beasties too?

I recently did a batch with
15L Berri Apple juice
6L Berri Apple N Pear Juice
Wyeast 4766
a bit of nutrient
18-19c
fermented to 1000 and then CCd and kegged.

Tasted pretty good for my first one even better after 8 weeks but sadly I finished it tonight next one I might try some crushed granny smith apples for an extra bit of bite what do you think about the starsan?


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## manticle (22/11/10)

whiteferret said:


> do you leave the crust behind?
> I'd think so
> 
> I know how sulfites dont agree with you manticle what about starsan to sanitize the apple pieces before I jucie/press them plus I've read on here that it is also a good yeast nutrient after its done its job or do you think it would keep working into the ferment killing off the good beasties too?
> ...



Yes, definitely leave the crust behind.

Maybe you could starsan the apples - the main reason for sulphites is to kill/retard the wild yeasts on the skin of the apples. I find by adding an active starter that I get no discernible problem from wild yeast. However I would think it would be pretty hard to make sure you contacted all the surfaces of all the apple s well enough to do an effective job. You could pasteurise - that can change the flavour but most store bought juices you'll buy are probably pasteurised anyway. Myself I just make sure the apples and equipment are clean, and the equipment is sanitised. 


I aim to try a spontaneous ferment one day anyway - naturally fermented french ciders are something else (not for everyone though) and probably very difficult to replicate at home..


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## The Giant (22/11/10)

I did a quick small batch on the weekend.

Got 2 x 3l Apple and Pear Just Juice, preserv free.
Added yeast nutrient
Just a coopers kit yeast
pierced the lids and covered in glad wrap

Sitting in the bar fridge now at 15 degrees, fermenting nicely, getting plenty of action

Will bottle in 2 weeks and let u know how i go


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## InCider (22/11/10)

The Giant said:


> I did a quick small batch on the weekend.
> 
> Got 2 x 3l Apple and Pear Just Juice, preserv free.
> Added yeast nutrient
> ...



I'll be really interested to know how it goes TG. You could revolutionise convenient cider making! You'd get a few batches done with a syringe and a smack pack of cider yeast, then reuse the yeast for the next set ciders. 4-6 3 litre bottles at a go!


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## argon (22/11/10)

manticle said:


> What's the model? Might be easier than making myself a press (as much fun and frustration making a press might entail).






Chookers said:


> is it a Breville Juice fountain?? they do whole apples. Got to leave juice for awhile when you use the extractor, as it separates. If I dont drink my juice straight away I end up with a brown layer on top and clear juice underneath (carrot, Orange, Celery and Apple for sweetness. Or Carrot and Celery juice makes a nice shake if you blend it with icecream).




Yep the juice fountain... model number JE70... does whole apples. Looks like a tidy bit of kit... and looks like'd handle a few kg of apples through it.


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## manticle (22/11/10)

The Giant said:


> I did a quick small batch on the weekend.
> 
> Will measure gravity in 2 weeks and bottle if it's ready. Otherwise I'll wait a bit longer. let u know how i go



I think you meant to type this.

Good luck with it.


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## Airgead (23/11/10)

argon said:


> Yep the juice fountain... model number JE70... does whole apples. Looks like a tidy bit of kit... and looks like'd handle a few kg of apples through it.



I use an Oscar 9000 screw press type. Pushed 45kg through it for this year's batch. Took all day but it does a great job. I ended up with around 30l of juice from the 45kg apples. Mind you cutting and feeding through that may apples is something you only want to do once a year. I'm looking seriously at a wine press and crusher for next year. If I do get my hands on one I might do a few hundred kg and make a really big batch.

I'm the same as Manticle technique wise... let the cap form. Rack from under the cap. Active starter. Ferment cool.

Cheers
Dave


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## stux (23/11/10)

argon said:


> Yep the juice fountain... model number JE70... does whole apples. Looks like a tidy bit of kit... and looks like'd handle a few kg of apples through it.



Yep, I'm planning on using the BJE400 to try the same thing , We've used it to juice a few litres of apple juice in the past with not too much trouble... Can't see why it wouldn't work well

The juice fountains work by finely shredding the fruit and then centrifugally spinning the juice out of the pulp


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## argon (23/11/10)

Stux said:


> Yep, I'm planning on using the BJE400 to try the same thing , We've used it to juice a few litres of apple juice in the past with not too much trouble... Can't see why it wouldn't work well
> 
> The juice fountains work by finely shredding the fruit and then centrifugally spinning the juice out of the pulp




yep it's not bad... tried some of the pulp in the waste catcher... it was dry as. The juice came out just like the juice you get at the cafes... I'd assume they'd do a few kg on a Sunday morning over breakfast.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (23/11/10)

manticle said:


> <snip>
> 
> I will be sticking to store bought juice until i have built myself a press (can use my grape crusher for the scratting).



I'll be interested to see how you go with that. Last year was awful for me. Making basket presses that can withstand a bit of pressure is an interesting exercise.

Scratting apples is also a challenge - I wouldn't expect a normal grape crusher to be up to it. Mine will be pedal-powered - but this year I will be hiring equipments to save time...


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## The Giant (23/11/10)

manticle said:


> I think you meant to type this.
> 
> Good luck with it.



hahaha yes u r very correct

Dont want to get that far only to have it all over the walls under my stairs!


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## Airgead (23/11/10)

argon said:


> yep it's not bad... tried some of the pulp in the waste catcher... it was dry as. The juice came out just like the juice you get at the cafes... I'd assume they'd do a few kg on a Sunday morning over breakfast.



Never used one myself but I am told that the centrifugal type leave a lot of very fine pulp suspended in the juice. I'd be leaving it to settle cold for a while before racking off the pulp and fermenting. Maybe even add some pectinase to assist in clarifying. Or you could filter it.

Cheers
Dave


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## argon (23/11/10)

Airgead said:


> Never used one myself but I am told that the centrifugal type leave a lot of very fine pulp suspended in the juice. I'd be leaving it to settle cold for a while before racking off the pulp and fermenting. Maybe even add some pectinase to assist in clarifying. Or you could filter it.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave




Yeah the plan was to filter it... at least afterwards... maybe worth filtering prior to fermenting after some cooling and racking from under the crust? i'd say it'd probably clog my 1 micron filter pretty quickly though, if i did pre-fermentation


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## manticle (23/11/10)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I'll be interested to see how you go with that. Last year was awful for me. Making basket presses that can withstand a bit of pressure is an interesting exercise.
> 
> Scratting apples is also a challenge - I wouldn't expect a normal grape crusher to be up to it. Mine will be pedal-powered - but this year I will be hiring equipments to save time...



I found if I cut apples up a bit first, that the wine crusher gave me what looked like pictures of scratted apples. It's still a pain cutting up the apples but a bit more research and we'll see how we go. Won't be for a while anyway.


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## Airgead (23/11/10)

manticle said:


> I found if I cut apples up a bit first, that the wine crusher gave me what looked like pictures of scratted apples. It's still a pain cutting up the apples but a bit more research and we'll see how we go. Won't be for a while anyway.



Some grape crushers have apple scratting attachments. I think ibrew have them...

Cheers
Dave


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## manticle (23/11/10)

I'll have a squizz. Cheers.


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## Airgead (23/11/10)

argon said:


> Yeah the plan was to filter it... at least afterwards... maybe worth filtering prior to fermenting after some cooling and racking from under the crust? i'd say it'd probably clog my 1 micron filter pretty quickly though, if i did pre-fermentation



You could run it through a coarse sediment filter pre-fermentation to get rid of most of the pulp. I find the pulp oxidises very quickly and goes brown and yuck. Not sure what flavours it imparts to the brew in large quantities. If its really fine pulp it won't float and form a cap it will just sit there in suspension and turn the juice brown.

Cheers
Dave


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## Chookers (24/11/10)

BigW are going to have the Breville Juice Fountain Plus JE95 on for $166 this thursday, and coles are gonna have the 2lt Nudie Juices on for $2.99 (half price) Im gonna go back and get somemore.


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## The Giant (5/12/10)

InCider said:


> I'll be really interested to know how it goes TG. You could revolutionise convenient cider making! You'd get a few batches done with a syringe and a smack pack of cider yeast, then reuse the yeast for the next set ciders. 4-6 3 litre bottles at a go!




Happy to report that this looks like its turned out really well.

2 weeks to the day and have bottled it.

FG rating for the last 3 days has been 1004 so very happy. Used the kit yeast out of the coopers cerveza goo can and had in the bar fridge at 15 for 2 weeks.

Taste from my FG rating is remarkable considering what the juice tasted originally. ALl sweetness has almost gone and the cider if anything is a touch dry. If i had to compare way better than strongbow and 5 seeds. Not quite up to a magners or bulmers standard that i like. For a 50-50 pear/apple juice i'm not getting any pear, but i noticed that before i added the yeast anyway.

Fg readings would indicate around 5-5.5%


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## Tanga (6/12/10)

Good work son. I will try your technique (though sadly no beer fridge here). It suits my budget / equipment. How did you bottle from the bottles? Siphone hose?


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## The Giant (6/12/10)

Just used a funnel with a coffee filter to pick up any yeast
Got no cloudiness except for the very last bottle, but i would say that will settle in time


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