# In quest of a proper stout



## TheWiggman (27/8/16)

I've been brewing for a few years now and have made my fair share of decent and rubbish beers. I brew almost exclusively from a published book and have found most recipes to be ok, but have never really 'nailed' a stout. The more I brew the more I'm finding my simplest recipes to be the best. However when it comes to stouts - my favourite beer - I'm finding I can't quite make them hit the nail on the head and instead feel like I'm making something close but "not quite there".
For reference, here are my favourite stouts:

Coopers Best Extra Stout (roast and acrid no-nonsense goodness)
Abbotsford Invalid Stout (coffee/chocolate/roast balance is great for the low body)
Guinness (Dublin version only. Classic)
Cascade Stout
A stout that I think is overrated is 4 Pines. It gets a lot of good feedback but I find it too smooth, easy, and just not charcoaly enough. Maybe that gives you an indication of where I stand and what I like.

For me I think my stouts are missing more in the malts that the hops. Here are some of the grain bills in my recipes:

*Oatmeal (4.7%, 33 IBU)*
Pale 85.3%
Flaked oats 5.2%
Pale chocolate 4.0%
Crystal, dark 4.0%
Roast barley 1.5%

*Dry (4.7% 38 IBU)*
Pale 78.3%
Torrefied wheat 10.3%
Roasted Barley 9.3%

*RIS (8.2%, 66 IBU)*
Pale 87.5%
Crystal, med 6.2%
Roast barley 2.5%
Carafa III 1.9%
Chocolate 1.9%

*Confederate Stout (5.1%, 37 IBU)* (my own concoction)
Pale 35.3%
Flaked oats 5.2%
Pale chocolate 4.0%
Crystal, dark 4.0%
Roast barley 1.5%

I've used mainly English hops with 1084, 1098, 1469 and 1028. A few different water profiles with standard step mashes on a 3V system not that I think it matters. Ferment temps in the 18-22°C range.

You can see with the exception of the dry stout the portion of really dark malts is pretty low. 9.3% roast barley works out to be 450g in a 23l recipe and I'm feeling like my stouts aren't acrid and roasty enough. 
I feel like I'm answering my own question, but I think a higher portion of black malt or roasted barley will contribute towards a more roasty, toasty and flavoursome stout. I also think that crystals push that element of flavour too much and while supposedly to style, contribute too much of the wrong thing to a 'real' stout. I'm thinking of pushing the boundaries with the roast, and on the next brew going -

Pale 84%
Black patent 8%
Torrefied wheat 6%
Pale chocolate 2%

Some PoR for bitterness, maybe a bit of late EKG and ferment with some classic English yeast or even a WLP008 yeast cake.
Any ideas on how to make a really roasty and bitter stout? I'm not interested in making a beer all the drop ins like, I want something that will put hairs on your chest and remind me of campfires and gunsmoke.


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/16)

Look up my Pillar of Stout. Its really good, almost Guinnes like


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## manticle (27/8/16)

No black patent in any of those previously brewed
Roast barley, black and choc..

Up the roast and ye shall find what ye seek.
Then work on getting the balance between grist, pH and palate preference.


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## Blind Dog (27/8/16)

The Terry Fosters book on Porter and Stout is a really good read. I like to brew dry stout with 5% roast and 5% black/chocolat. 5% dark crystal (but optional) and the rest pale ale malt.English hops or US versions/approximations of noble hops.


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## manticle (27/8/16)

Terry Foster!
Porter!
Stout!
Exclamations!
Enid Blyton!

His books would be good if someone else wrote them but the information within is worthy of pursuit.


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## Blind Dog (27/8/16)

He does love the unecessary exclamation mark, albeit not quite so much as the entirely redundant quote marks. Still enjoyed reading the book and brewing a few of the recipes. I'd go so far as to say he might even have brewed a few of the recipes


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## peteru (27/8/16)

Enid Blyton said:


> "Oh mother, I do love to make a dark beer!" he exclaimed in a most peculiar voice.


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## manticle (27/8/16)

I agree! Terry has his drawbacks but is not worth discounting!


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## droid (28/8/16)

what temps are you mashing at wiggy?


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## TheWiggman (28/8/16)

Good to see my own assumptions hold. I just noticed I left some chocolate malt off the dry stout recipe which might explain why it was a little lacking. I still find the lack of roasted malts in this book to be unusual as it means some of the recipes aren't really 'to style' (which was feedback I got in the recent comp). 
Droid, 65-67°C depending.


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## dammag (28/8/16)

This is a FES I recently brewed.

Not too roasty. I like to use some black patent in my recipes. I'm not a fan of all roast barley.

Pale 78.01%

Black Patent 4.96%

Roast Barley 4.96%

Pale Choc 3.55%

Xtal 90 1.4%

EKG to 48 IBU's

Fermented with Wyeast 1968

I would perhaps try a different yeast next time to get a little more attenuation and some more fruity esters.

Have you tried Shepherd Neame Double Stout? You can get it from Dan's. Not a bad drop.


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## wide eyed and legless (28/8/16)

I noticed on Dan's website a Southwark Old Stout $53 a slab at 7.4 % anyone tried it ? Our local Dan's doesn't stock it.


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## VP Brewing (28/8/16)

I agree that you need to get more dark malts in there. At the Vic Xmas case swap last year Mayor Of Mildura had a stout that had 10% roast barley and 10% Choc and I freaking loved it. I think Tim Hearns stout from the recent one was about 7% of each and a bit of crystal in there. Also a pretty good stout in my opinion.


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/16)

4.4 kg BB Ale Malt
0.34 kg JWM Roast Barley
0.15 kg JWM Chocolate Malt
0.15 kg Weyermann Carafa Special II
0.1 kg TF Black Malt


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## TheWiggman (28/8/16)

Looks good Stu. I think I'll do something like that on the next stout brew with some PoR and maybe 1028 or recultured Coopers. 
Good direction too VP - 20% roast is normally in the "oh no that must be charcoal" territory but I reckon those remarks are probably from those who haven't pushed the boundaries. 
Actually my favourite stout is probably Sheaf. Would love to be able to clone that.


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/16)

TheWiggman said:


> Looks good Stu. I think I'll do something like that on the next stout brew with some PoR and maybe 1028 or recultured Coopers.


Thats my Pillar of Stout, done with POR

A number of brewers have made it and reckon its very good


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## manticle (28/8/16)

I think the key to brewing a good stout is the balance of roast rather than the arbitary percentage limit of each.

Really that goes for malts in any grist.


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/16)

And also to not use to many

I always find the less the better


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## manticle (28/8/16)

Generally I agree but stout is one where you can push that a tad. Still need to be judicious though.


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## Bribie G (28/8/16)

I usually put in about 600 - 800g Roast Barley. I was at a brewday once with bradsbrew and he whacked in a whole kilo. My recent entry of a FES didn't attract any comments about too much roastiness, in fact they said it was a little understated.

The trick is to underpin the RB with a variety of malts other than just pale. Guinness, in particular, uses a specially kilned brown malt as its base, that I guess might be like the mild malt you can get.
I often put in Carapils for heading and smoothness, amber malt, some crystal but not too much and of course flaked barley.


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## malt and barley blues (28/8/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I noticed on Dan's website a Southwark Old Stout $53 a slab at 7.4 % anyone tried it ? Our local Dan's doesn't stock it.


Excellent stout when you can get it.


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## Bribie G (28/8/16)

I expect it will be SA only. As with Sheaf Stout that's only NSW.


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/16)

Mmmm...Sheaf Stout.... :icon_drool2:

I actually prefer it over Coopers ( well some times h34r: )


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## Mardoo (28/8/16)

Some good advice and recipes here. Add some Black Malt/Patent Malt to your roast bill. Roast Barley tends to be less acrid than Black Patent, but I myself like the edge that the right touch of Black brings to a stout.


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## bradmccoy (7/9/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> 4.4 kg BB Ale Malt
> 0.34 kg JWM Roast Barley
> 0.15 kg JWM Chocolate Malt
> 0.15 kg Weyermann Carafa Special II
> 0.1 kg TF Black Malt


Hey mate, dumb question: what is TF black malt? Is this some kind of patent?


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## LAGERFRENZY (7/9/16)

Thomas Fawcett - its a brand.


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## bradmccoy (8/9/16)

LAGERFRENZY said:


> Thomas Fawcett - its a brand.


Ahh right. Thanks.


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/16)

bradmccoy said:


> Hey mate, dumb question: what is TF black malt? Is this some kind of patent?


Its basically charcoal....Patent is black malt.....basically


Black/Patent will give you a nice ash flavour. But dont go to silly on it....unless your a hipster

My other fav for Stout/Porter is Carafa III = like RB but without the astringency ( its de-husked RB )


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## RobW (9/9/16)

Warren's Four Shades is an excellent stout (although I prefer it with English hops).

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/414-four-shades-of-sout/


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## drsmurto (9/9/16)

RobW said:


> Warren's Four Shades is an excellent stout (although I prefer it with English hops).
> 
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/414-four-shades-of-sout/


Agree although that link goes to a newbie thread for me. I'd try and find the recipe but anything beyond basic typing is vastly too complex for this terrible app.


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## TheWiggman (9/9/16)

Here was your rendition DrSmurto -

Recipe: 4 shades
Brewer: DrSmurto
Asst Brewer:
Style: Dry Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 25.00 L
Boil Size: 33.55 L
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 88.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 40.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.Grain 79.37 %
0.30 kg Barley, Flaked (3.9 EBC) Grain 4.76 %
0.25 kg Amber Malt (43.3 EBC) Grain 3.97 %
0.25 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) Grain 3.97 %
0.25 kg Chocolate Malt (1100.0 EBC) Grain 3.97 %
0.25 kg Roasted Barley (1300.0 EBC) Grain 3.97 %
15.00 g Green Bullet [13.50 %] (60 min) Hops 19.9 IBU
25.00 g Green Bullet [13.50 %] (20 min) Hops 20.1 IBU
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Ringwood Ale (Wyeast Labs #1187) [Starter Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 6.30 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 17.00 L of water at 73.9 C 66.0 C
10 min Mash Out Add 12.00 L of water at 97.4 C 78.0 C

Posted from trusty PC.
FYI I've got a full keg of stout to be drunk so will be a month or two at least before I do another stout.


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## RobW (9/9/16)

Here 'tis


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## drsmurto (9/9/16)

TheWiggman said:


> Here was your rendition DrSmurto -
> 
> Recipe: 4 shades
> Brewer: DrSmurto
> ...


I remember that beer now, the green bullet gives it away. It took out 1st place in the Dry stout section of ANAWBS 2008.


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## bradmccoy (11/9/16)

TheWiggman said:


> Ingredients:
> ------------
> Amount Item Type % or IBU
> 5.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.Grain 79.37 %
> ...


I'm going to brew something based on this next week. Looks good. One Q I have is how much flaked varley to add. This recipe has 5%. Other recipes have wildly varying amounts (some as much as 25%). What are the pros and cons of different amounts of flaked barley? Anyone?


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