# Australian craft beer standards



## neal32 (20/1/13)

Hi,

My name is Neal and I enjoy beer. I often go out of my way to source craft beers. All my experiences with beers imported from the US have been top notch in terms of stability, flavour and expectations (minus the obvious freshness). Also I have never had a 'faulty' NZ/Belgian/German beer. However when I branched out and bought a beer from Moon Dog, it was infected. Emailed Moon Dog and got a response basically questioning my diagnosis of an infected beer. Swore to stick to the US/NZ/Belgian/German craft beers. Saw Murray's 2IPA there today and remember hearing good things about it, so I thought f*&k it, Australian craft beer deserves another go. Cracked, poured gently. Gusher.  Won't even bother with an email this time.

/rant

Has anyone else experienced these things and if so why is the Australian breweries lagging in hygiene/quality control? I want to support the fledgling industry but that's 2/2 bad experiences. Why bother again when for the same price I can go a Rogue/Bridgeport/Stone/Bear Republic/Mikeller/SN which are always excellent?


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## Helles (20/1/13)

Me to
2 flat beers i think it was Hargraves Hill and Red Hill
Also had a flat beer poured off tap at Buffalo brewery many years ago walked straight out of there


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## bullsneck (20/1/13)

Less micros = smaller range of ingredients for homebrewers.

You got two bad ones, yes. Don't let that taint your opinions of Aussie Craft Beer. I'm sure those who went to Ballarat Beer Fest would back me up. Good beers there.


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## pk.sax (20/1/13)

^ you pointed out the problem with selling beer in Australia up the in the first two posts.

Some of the beers I like tend to be overcarbed by the breweries for the bottles. No worries, let it out. Pour into a glass. No problem with flavour.
What you call flat up there about Hargreaves hill and red hill is to me just right. Personal preference. Don't bash these good breweries man, it's very subjective. Highly carbed craft beer tends to taste pretty average if drunk just like that outta the bottle.

Op: Try prickly Moses red ale. Lovely beer.


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## fletcher (20/1/13)

it honestly might have been really shitty luck and coincidence with the ones you got. to jump on their defense, give them a second chance, and i bet you'll have better luck with the newly bought beers. give them another crack i reckon. i've had some fantastic murray's beers.


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## Helles (21/1/13)

I still do buy Aussie craft beers sometimes
But the Hargraves Hill and Red Hill where totally flat
Just wont buy these ones ever again


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## Fish13 (21/1/13)

enjoying eagle bay beers today. the pale ale was very nice and the kolsch aint to bad


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## bum (21/1/13)

Where'd you buy them, neal32?


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## Wolfy (21/1/13)

I think that trying a limited number of samples/beers/breweries and then labeling _all _Australian Craft Beer as having poor 'standards', 'hygiene/quality control' or anything else (good or bad) is short-sighted, based on inadequate and incomplete data and reading too much into such a small sample. You're doing yourself and the ************************ industry a disservice.
One email response from one brewery is also a far too small sample to make any qualitative judgments or life-long decisions.

I've tried some locally brewed craft beer and found I didn't like it, sometimes I suspect it's related to quality-control type issues, other times the beer/style/brewery/carbonation/something is simply not to my liking. I've also tried imported craft beer and mass produced beer and had the same conclusions.
On the other hand I've had some locally brewed craft beer that has been great, heard stories about local craft brewers being very receptive to feedback (good and bad) about their beer, and know that some local craft breweries have very high standards of quality and control.

Fair enough that you had a beer from a specific brewery that you didn't like, that's a fair reason not to buy the beer or even stuff from that brewery again. But there is such a variety of craft breweries both here and overseas that you simply can't judge one by the other. 
Judging a brewery like Feral - and not ever buying their beer - based on a sample of beer you tried from from Moondog (as two example Australian craft breweries), simply because they both brew in the same country just isn't logical, those two breweries differ in almost every other way - the fact they make beer in Australia is likely one of the few things they actually have in common, size, scale, philosophy, process, equipment and the beers they produce are all radically different - you simply can't judge one from trying beer from the other.

If you were to visit the USA or NZ (as examples of the craft brewed beer that you do drink) you might even find that you have the same hit-and-miss situation that you're finding with local beer. The difference being that the stuff that gets imported here from overseas is tried, tested and proven (an importer is not likely to bring over beer they don't think is high quality, tested and proven) rather than what could be a representative sample of the quality and range generally found in that country.


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## yum beer (21/1/13)

I've had some rotten beers from some really well regarded local breweries (mountain goat, grand ridge, murrays), I've also had some bloody good beers as well.
Keep trying you will find some you like, its just not possible to get perfect beer all the time, no matter where its from,
had a Zwiec a while back that was bloody disgusting, as an example.


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## GalBrew (21/1/13)

helles said:


> I still do buy Aussie craft beers sometimes
> But the Hargraves Hill and Red Hill where totally flat
> Just wont buy these ones ever again


Then you are missing out, as these guys do know how to brew. Never had a bad beer from either and I have had way more than 2.


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## lukiferj (21/1/13)

There was a thread a few months back about supporting Aussie micro breweries. There was a suggestion to pick up a single local beer every time you go to a bottle shop. I have been doing this and have tasted some amazing beers. I have also tasted some average and very average beers (undrinkable), but the good has far outweighed the bad. I wouldn't let a couple of bad experiences ruin the opportunity to taste some great beers.


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## Goldenchild (21/1/13)

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="neal32" data-cid="991966" data-time="1358681198"><p>
Hi,<br />
<br />
My name is Neal and I enjoy beer. I often go out of my way to source craft beers. All my experiences with beers imported from the US have been top notch in terms of stability, flavour and expectations (minus the obvious freshness). Also I have never had a 'faulty' NZ/Belgian/German beer. However when I branched out and bought a beer from Moon Dog, it was infected. Emailed Moon Dog and got a response basically questioning my diagnosis of an infected beer. Swore to stick to the US/NZ/Belgian/German craft beers. Saw Murray's 2IPA there today and remember hearing good things about it, so I thought f*&k it, Australian craft beer deserves another go. Cracked, poured gently. Gusher.  Won't even bother with an email this time.<br />
<br />
/rant<br />
<br />
Has anyone else experienced these things and if so why is the Australian breweries lagging in hygiene/quality control? I want to support the fledgling industry but that's 2/2 bad experiences. Why bother again when for the same price I can go a Rogue/Bridgeport/Stone/Bear Republic/Mikeller/SN which are always excellent?</p></blockquote>

What moon dog beer was it? Are you sure it wasn't one of there many beers intentially infected with bugs? Hence there questioning your diagnoses of it being infected. 

If you weren't a fan dont buy that beer it is that easy. There is no need to generalize all aussy craft beer as bad from 2 bad experiences both which could be as much mishandling as anything else.

Also where are you buying your beer from?
If your local beers are costing the same as your imports from stone, mikkeller,rogue and bear republic like you claim then your either getting ripped off or scoring a great deal on your imports.


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## Thirsty Boy (21/1/13)

He's got a point.. My wife and I are both avid beer fans, we deliberately and frequently seek out new beer, generally craft beer.

Over the years we have learned a few things - one is that Australian micros cant bottle for shit. They're getting better in the last few years but really, the point from where they started was so abysmally low that better still isn't all that good. I try to taste a beer three times in three different settings before I pronounce it "bad" or even decide that I just dont like it - bottled micro brew beer is so horribly inconsistant in my experience, that if a bad taste of a beer happens to be a bottled version.... I dont even count it in the three because I more or less expect it. The second thing we learned is, even sitting in the brewery at brewers we know and like, never order a pint first and never order two of the same beer first - taste them. One pot, share it, see if its any damn good, then if it is.... maybe order a pint. That goes double for a beer we've never tried before or for one off seasonal type offerings...

And I'm not talking about beers simply not being to my taste - I'm talking about beers with obvious and sometimes serious brewing faults.

Its fine to support craft brewing and brewers - but we're not doing anyone any favours if we continue to be unwilling to critisise bad brewing and bad beers. It tkaes away from the achievements of those brewers who get it right.


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## bum (21/1/13)

Thirsty Boy said:


> He's got a point..


No, _you've_ got a point. He's had TWO beers. One of which was most likely deliberately bizzare.



Thirsty Boy said:


> Its fine to support craft brewing and brewers - but we're not doing anyone any favours if we continue to be unwilling to critisise bad brewing and bad beers.


Yep. I can tell you from experience, however, that criticisng beer in just about any capacity is fairly unpopular around these parts. The PMs one receives!


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## twizt1d (21/1/13)

i had a homebrew once and it was shit, never again.


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## bruce86 (21/1/13)

I have found it was the bigger mobs like gage roads (not meaning offence) that had let me down with their beers. I generally pick up craft beers (also from woolies) and have never had an infected or over carbed beer. The gage roads ones tend to be a bit hit a miss but that is more to do with flavour. I had one of their London best at it was great had it another time and it tasted like slightly bitter water. Same goes for the sleeping giant.

Do yourself a favor Neal go find some of ferals brews im sure you have been to the brewery so get it from a bottle shop. The hop hog holds up well looses a little hop edge but my guess that is because the turn over rate at those shops would be a little less than the other beers. If you source beer like you said u do and you havent been to the brewerys in the swan than your not looking hard enough! :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD (21/1/13)

I complained once about 4 Pines and they sent me a six pack.

Since then I've complained to _every single Oz Micro_ - even the ones I've never tried.

Now I have 347 bottles of delicious craft beer stacked up in a spare room. I've stopped even opening the packets, so it's like Beer Christmas in there. h34r: :lol: 

Joking, of course ... but when they send out replacements it's pretty obvious they realise there's an issue.


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## neal32 (21/1/13)

Maybe I could've been more clear in my initial post, these were my first experiences with either brewery. I often drink Feral, Little Creature's, Stone&Wood beers and they are all good, bottled or on tap. Feral Hop Hog is probably my favourite Australian beer. Stone & Wood however is often overcarbed, although not infected. My main point is that if I pay $8 for a stubby it should always be drinkable, well made and subject to good quality control. This point was echoed by Sam Calagione of Dogfishhead. He said, in either his book or show, I forget which one that when he first started bottling he would get emails from dissapointed customers about labels falling off and the general unprofessional presentation of which he initially dismissed as 'Showing it had been made by hand' or 'Handcrafted'. He soon came to realise that if the consumer was paying top dollar for a beer, he deserved professionlism for the whole product, package and all. So when I pay top dollar for a beer, infection just doesn't cut it and when there are so many excellent beers out there, unfortunately Murray's and Moondog will not get another look in. Also they were purchased from seperate Bottle shops around Perth, neither of which I will name because they both do an excellent job and they should only be mentioned in a positive light.


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## bum (21/1/13)

Nick JD said:


> but when they send out replacements it's pretty obvious they realise there's an issue.


Not necessarily. There are some breweries who are pretty pro-active in trying to keep customers happy. I emailed one Victorian brewery to ask if something that I thought was a bit shit about one of their smaller batch beers was deliberate or not and they sent me a couple bottles of the newest batch of it (hadn't even hit retail yet) - plus a few of the rest of their range - so I could re-evaluate the beer. Didn't change my mind about the beer but it did about the brewery.


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## barls (21/1/13)

never had an over carbed beer from stone and wood. 
murrays did have a small problem a few years ago but this has since been sorted. have you tried to contact shawn, the head brewer at murrays, about this. i know he takes it extremely seriously about the quality of his beer. you might be seriously surprised on how much they care.
i can tell you now the info he will be looking for is where you bought it and the batch code if it has one.

the other point to think on is poor handling can result in the same result. not saying the they have been badly handled by the bottlo but maybe on the trip over to perth ie in the back of a truck across the center of australia. fairly sure they arent insulated or temp stabilised in the trailers they use.


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## Nick JD (21/1/13)

bum said:


> There are some breweries who are pretty pro-active in trying to keep customers happy.


Like making great beer in clean bottles you mean?


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## bum (21/1/13)

Ahaha. That would be nice.


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## adamh (21/1/13)

I cracked open a Fuller's bottle ($8 worth) and there was no gas at all, so tipped it out. Only bad beer I've ever had. I didn't then not ever try Fuller's again. I immediately cracked open the second bottle I'd bought :chug: They're beers are too good to not try them ever again.

Murray's make some awesome brews. Had one called Spartikus the other night at The Alehouse Project. Knock yer socks off at 10%. And their farmhouse ale at GABS last year was really good too. They make some pretty adventurous brews. It's a shame you're missing out just because of 1 bottle.

The only beer I've ever opened and then tipped out was Budweiser - it wasn't infected, it was normal :blink:


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## biggo (21/1/13)

There are a lot of good beers in Australia, I too have had a carton Murry's Punch and Judy that was way over carbonated and beard and brau amber that was quite the same.

On the other hand I have had some great beers

Red Duck - Braggot - any of them
Cheeky monkey - Mild
Boneyard brewing - Golden ale

I also wonder about not just the quality control but the openess to customers mentioning that the beer may have issues


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## barls (21/1/13)

had one exactly the same from green flash in the states, rang the bottle shop and then went back and swapped it for a newer bottle. all good in the end.
have you mentioned the dud bottles to the bottlo at all?


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## stux (21/1/13)

neal32 said:


> Also they were purchased from seperate Bottle shops around Perth, neither of which I will name because they both do an excellent job and they should only be mentioned in a positive light.


Maybe you need to try some local beers?

Seriously though, there is a desert between perth and the east coast, try some beers which don't have to travel through a desert to get to you and see what you think


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## eamonnfoley (21/1/13)

I struggle with this also. Here in Perth its often poor Aussie beer, or stale/heat struck imports. And a huge price tag.

Smaller breweries in Australia generally dont have lab facilities, or even access to external services that provide these. UK, US, Belgium, and Germany all have these and they are affordable - even for the public and homebrewers. A lot of brewers in Australia have no formal brewing education either. And no access to reliable commercial bottling facilites.


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## Frag_Dog (21/1/13)

I've had a few dud beers from Aussie micros. When I say dud, I mean either under or over carbed, infected, or obviously mishandled.

From listening to the Brewing Network shows and the brewers they interview, the brewerys in the states sound like they control the distribution of their product a little better. They generally won't let something like an IPA get trucked across the country unless they can guarentee the quality. I don't know if Aussie micros have this same level of control over their product.

If I could put my paranoid foil helmet on for a second, I wouldn't be supprised if the bigger boys have a hand in some of the craft beer being mistreated.

For this reason I tend to try and buy from local Craft Breweries


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## Mirkin (21/1/13)

As others have said, handling. I've had lemons from Dan Murphy's and small locals, almost always in summer. I've seen Dan Murphy's at Maitland standing pallets of beer on their loading dock all day when temps were over 40. That's not a sin exclusive to big places either.

The only time a brewery can truly be 100% responsible for their product is if you buy it from their cellar door.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (21/1/13)

foles said:


> I struggle with this also. Here in Perth its often poor Aussie beer, or stale/heat struck imports. And a huge price tag.
> 
> Smaller breweries in Australia generally dont have lab facilities, or even access to external services that provide these. UK, US, Belgium, and Germany all have these and they are affordable - even for the public and homebrewers. A lot of brewers in Australia have no formal brewing education either. And no access to reliable commercial bottling facilites.


Dont really need much of a lab for quality control, I think most just dont think its nessessary = no education.
Nev


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## jimmy01 (21/1/13)

I try as many Aussie craft beers as I can, both in the bottle and off tap. (Getting a bit easier in Brisvegas now that we have some decent bars like Archive, Scratch and Tipplers Tap). I have to agree that whilst there are some great Aussie beers around, there are quite a few ordinary ones as well. 

My greatest challenge is finding aussie craft brewery that can brew a decent pils or lager or even a good quality brown or amber ale. Pretty rare in these categories. Seems to be a lot of hopped upped Pale Ales and Black Ipa's around. Maybe this is what drinkers want but may also be that these styles are easier to hide behind.

I think that the mini boom in Micros in Aus that we are seeing might see the cream come to the top, with some of the inconsistent breweries falling by the wayside.

Anyway, I'll keep supporting the Aussies as much as possible. One or two bad beers won't put me off. Had plenty of ordinary beers in Europe and the US too.

Cheers


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## Nick JD (21/1/13)

I had an infected Duval once. Sadface.


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## mikec (21/1/13)

I had a crap Aussie beer out of a glass bottle once.
Ergo, all beer is crap. As are all glass bottles.
I'm sticking to wine in casks.


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## drsmurto (21/1/13)

Had two Stone and Wood Draughts, one in Brisbane and one in Byron Bay.

Both times it tasted like someone had dumped the catcher from a lawnmover in my beer.

Never had another since although i assumed it is not a bad in the infected/gusher/overcarbed way but simply not my cup of tea. The possibility that is was somehow not as it should be never occurred to me.

It currently sits at #2 on my 'worst craft beer' list.


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## Nick JD (21/1/13)

DrSmurto said:


> Both times it tasted like someone had dumped the catcher from a lawnmover in my beer.


I had a James Squiers Golden Ale the other day that tasted like Rexona Sport deoderant.


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## billygoat (21/1/13)

DrSmurto said:


> Had two Stone and Wood Draughts, one in Brisbane and one in Byron Bay.
> 
> Both times it tasted like someone had dumped the catcher from a lawnmover in my beer.
> 
> ...


Just had a Stone and Wood Draught off the tap at The Rails in Byron Bay about an hour ago, tasted fine. As you say, maybe not your cup of tea. Must admit I preferred the LCPA they had on tap.


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## Fish13 (22/1/13)

This is an awesome topic!!

I to have had a unpleasant hargraves hill pale ale that would not be my next beer ot buy. Same wth the lord nelsons pale ale.. just didn't stand up well compared to the other Mircobrewed pale ale beers in the box i made for a mate.


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## Liam_snorkel (22/1/13)

Never had an issue with Aussie micro beers on tap. The vast majority of bottles I've had have also been great. The only exceptions were a murrays 2ipa which was a gusher (Archive), a six pack of 4 pines pale (liquor land) which had had no hop aroma, and an oxidised holgate temptress (slow beer). Subsequent purchases of 4 pines an holgate beers have been great and fresh so I can assume it was transport/storage issues. I understand that murrays were having bottling issues at the time. 

I never buy anything 'craft' from dan murphys if I can avoid it.


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## joshuahardie (23/1/13)

I had an infected Cantillon before.
I demanded to the bottleshop that they replace it.

They saw straight through me.

Love Murrays and Moondog beer. Some of the most interesting stuff I have ever drank.


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## adamh (23/1/13)

Is it just me, or are there no Aussie beers in this at all? http://www.worldbeerawards.com/2012/

Perhaps that also says something....


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## chunckious (23/1/13)

Moondog are trippa's


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## Fents (23/1/13)

Chunkious said:


> Moondog are trippa's


They sure do get rowdy after a few beers too! I think its great. Did you see the pic of their new beer on twitter? was pure lol's.


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## brendanos (13/4/13)

biggo said:


> On the other hand I have had some great beers
> 
> Boneyard brewing - Golden ale


I'm happy to hear it, and glad that it survived the trip across the Nullarbor! Boneyard is a gypsy brewing company so I have limited control over the stability our live beer which is largely dictated by the production and packaging processes that are available.

More often than not stale or overcarbonated beer can be avoided if the distribution and sales network (wholesalers, freight companies, bottle shops) treated the beer with a little more respect and transported and stored it cold or at least cool. A large problem is the cost associated with cold freight and the practicality of cold storage (unless the shop has been built with this in mind). You'd be shocked at the conditions in which many bottle shops store their beer because they (rightfully) don't think that their customers would be willing to bare the additional cost of cold freight and storage or improving their facilities. A lot of pubs or small bars are also often to blame due to inadequate draught beer hygiene and can quite easily destroy a perfectly good beer.

Everyone has the right to (and should) return bad beer - and I think more people need to do this if the problem (of either improper handling or just a bad batch) is to be addressed. Brewers don't love hearing about bad beer but appreciate constructive criticism and prefer to know if their beer has gone bad in a particular state or in a particular store so they can fix it. Episode 3 of The Checkout (on ABC iView) had a great feature on consumer affairs and I think a lot of the points raised are applicable to beer - so get informed about your rights and exercise them with confidence!


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## Bizier (13/4/13)

Brendan is right about the returns. If everyone just drinks a bad beer and never buys it again, the retailer gets the message that it is simply unpopular and that they should have stuck to the original plan to dedicate more floor space to Corona.

I always enquire as to what stock is fresh. I am only willing to pay the premium (esp in Perth) for beer that is actually fresh. I try to get it into the retailer's head that that is actually my primary consideration. I would prefer fresh VB to stale Rogue/whatever.


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## Lurks (13/4/13)

The thing that shits me to tears about aussie craft beer in pubs is that they serve it at the same temperature as the mega swill. At 1C you may as well be drinking the cheaper stuff!


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## mrTbeer (19/4/13)

I've had a gusher from Murrays. One 'AngryMan' in Brisbane and another from the brewery 'BigWednesday' At the brewery Murray noted that they were slightly over carbed but sold 6 for price of 2. All the taps were fine as was the Growler.

I've also had 4x4 boxes of NZ beers where they were all gushers, which was bloody annoying. Name escapes me but they bottle in 1/2 champagne bottles?
I blame the wholesalers who transport it slow and store it hot. If all beers were pasteurised it might not happen but I prefer live beers.


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## hillbillybreweries (26/10/13)

just had dinner at hargreaves hill in Yarra Glen. Have been there many times. These days since in the new brewery at Lilydale the beer is usually consistent. In the older days at the older brewery the beer could often have faults in it and sometimes major ones. After being brought out a Pale Ale that was very very cloudy today and explaining APA should not be served that way another glass was served up the same , very very cloudy. Asking for a ESB instead they happily obliged but the lady delivering that glass of beer argued that some people like the pale ale with all that yeast in it. She informed me she was "Simon's wife" who is the brewer.
I am used to ordering their Stout and having it served very cold. Today I laughed when I could clearly see them waiting for me to finish my ESB before even pouring my stout I had ordered twenty minutes before. It's a shame that despite getting a really good brewery engineered and built they don't pay attention to serving the beer up at correct temperature let alone allowing it to go out cloudy twice. If it were their hefe or aussie pale fair enough but don't they appreciate the point of difference in their product compared to mega brewery beers? Maybe the beer is not high on their agenda at the Yarra Glen cafe?


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## Feldon (26/10/13)

brendanos said:


> I'm happy to hear it, and glad that it survived the trip across the Nullarbor! Boneyard is a gypsy brewing company so I have limited control over the stability our live beer which is largely dictated by the production and packaging processes that are available.
> 
> More often than not stale or overcarbonated beer can be avoided if the distribution and sales network (wholesalers, freight companies, bottle shops) treated the beer with a little more respect and transported and stored it cold or at least cool. A large problem is the cost associated with cold freight and the practicality of cold storage (unless the shop has been built with this in mind). You'd be shocked at the conditions in which many bottle shops store their beer because they (rightfully) don't think that their customers would be willing to bare the additional cost of cold freight and storage or improving their facilities. A lot of pubs or small bars are also often to blame due to inadequate draught beer hygiene and can quite easily destroy a perfectly good beer.
> 
> Everyone has the right to (and should) return bad beer - and I think more people need to do this if the problem (of either improper handling or just a bad batch) is to be addressed. Brewers don't love hearing about bad beer but appreciate constructive criticism and prefer to know if their beer has gone bad in a particular state or in a particular store so they can fix it. Episode 3 of The Checkout (on ABC iView) had a great feature on consumer affairs and I think a lot of the points raised are applicable to beer - so get informed about your rights and exercise them with confidence!


Some Aussie craft brewers take pains to ensure their beer is properly treated if going into a long supply chain, or they don't sell it.

If some can why not all? I suppose it depends on whether the brewer cares more about making a sale that he does about his product and how his customers will receive it.

Brewers should not lay the problem of badly handled beer entirely at the feet of the consumer.


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## indica86 (26/10/13)

I recall back in the day when Coopers moved from Leabrook to Regency Park they had a load of issues with crap beer / yeast gone bad etc.
Got to the point where I would crack one at the bottle shop and both myself and the counter dude would try it. Many, many were returned. It can happen to anyone.

I had a holiday in central Victoria and really enjoyed both the Bridge Rd and Bright breweries, stunning beers and lovely surrounds. Vale Pale and IPA are quite nice too.
Brew Boys do a very drinkable few, sampled many on a recent trip to Adelaide. A great restaurant stocked these and I was there a lot, a nearby wine / tapas bar had only Corona... FFS.


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## SimoB (26/10/13)

I haven't read every post but I dont agree that Australia is not up to standard. I have had an untold amount of Australian craft beer which is off it's titts I guess it's personal preference. 

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk


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## bum (26/10/13)

I once had a beer I liked.

Then another time I had a beer I didn't like.


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## manticle (26/10/13)

I have piles


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## Not For Horses (26/10/13)

bum said:


> I once had a beer I liked.
> 
> Then another time I had a beer I didn't like.


Just read this whole thread. This is a more than adequate conclusion.


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## rheffera (27/10/13)

Not For Horses said:


> Just read this whole thread. This is a more than adequate conclusion.


and here we are, three pages later.


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## yum beer (27/10/13)

manticle said:


> I have piles


piles...piles of what?...good beer...bad beer....FFS man, make yourself clear.

I too once had a bad beer and also on another occassion and some other time as well.


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## WarmBeer (27/10/13)

manticle said:


> I have piles


Enough with the thread hijacking.

If you plan on showing off, especially with pics, start your own bloody thread.


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