# Braumeister Or 3v Herms



## pmastello (31/1/12)

I am thinking of upgrading my "no stand, esky, keggle" AG setup for something fancier that can handle High Grav brews, 50L batches, better lautering and sparging and give me some greater consistency between brews. I am only in the planning/saving money stage, but I was thinking either a 3 vessel HERMS (Gas boil, electric HLT) with a stand

OR 

go the easy way out and get a 50L Braumeister

Can anyone give me the positives and negatives for each option?
I am not the handiest person in the world, but do have access to a TIG welder and the know-how to weld almost any metals which would help.


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## banora brewer (31/1/12)

Gingerbrew said:


> I am thinking of upgrading my "no stand, esky, keggle" AG setup for something fancier that can handle High Grav brews, 50L batches, better lautering and sparging and give me some greater consistency between brews. I am only in the planning/saving money stage, but I was thinking either a 3 vessel HERMS (Gas boil, electric HLT) with a stand
> 
> OR
> 
> ...


I've got a 20 ltr braumeister, can't fault it, and only 1 vessel to clean, just program your brew than pretty much walk away.


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## tiprya (31/1/12)

I would like to do 'half' batches that are high gravity (IIPA, RIS etc). Is this possible in the BM by using less water? e.g. 13L at 1.090?

I've just read the maximum grain is around 5.5kg.


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## pmastello (31/1/12)

tiprya said:


> I would like to do 'half' batches that are high gravity (IIPA, RIS etc). Is this possible in the BM by using less water? e.g. 13L at 1.090?
> 
> I've just read the maximum grain is around 5.5kg.



I prefer doing bigger 40L High gravity beers, because you want to age them for anywhere up to 5 years. I brew smaller batches of lower grav ones so they get drunk fresh....


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## stux (31/1/12)

I personally would go the 50L braumeister.


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## Cortez The Killer (31/1/12)

It'd be worth while to brew on both first or at least participate in a brew day on each system

That said a 3 vessel system can be put together in a range of ways and configurations so you won't be able to experience all the nuances on a given system 

It comes down to personal preference 

There is a lot of praise out there for the Braumeister though

I have a 3 vessel system and can't see myself changing over to a Braumeister in the foreseeable future as I enjoy brewing on my latest incarnation

Cheers


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## fcmcg (31/1/12)

Whilst the braumesiter may make it easier to brew , clean up etc, there is nothing quite like the idiosyncracy of your own 3v system...
Sure cleaning is a bitch...
Sure you sort of have to baby sit it...
but hey...your actually really creating the wort...none of this push the button , shut the door aand she's done rubbish...
Maybe oneday i'd like a german jobby , just beacuise it would be easier...but i aso love getting out the 3v herms i have , cranking her up and making anything i want , when i want....
My .002c
Cheers
Ferg


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## stux (31/1/12)

I believe mark at Mark's Homebrew (in Newcastle) will let you do a brew on his shop braumeister for the cost of the ingredients, if you give him a bell


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## SJW (31/1/12)

I had a full blown 3 vessel system with all the bells and.....you know. I just sold it and bought a 20L BM. Sure there is loads of flexability with the 3v system but the problem is with this (I found) its almost impossible to make the exact same beer twice. There are just so many variables with the 3 vessels that will change the end result.
I am looking forward to the BM turning up. Apart from price I wanted the 20L as I like brewing and you can get 6.6 kg of grain in a 20L BM.

Steve


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## hsb (31/1/12)

Being able to weld is a big bonus in going the 3/4V HERMS direction.

I have a 4V HERMS and really like the modularity of my whole setup.
I can chop and change how it's all set up, I've been able to get to where I am now in a fairly organic way, adding parts as time/energy/inspiration allow.

It never feels like it's quite finished. (This is a plus to me, always more tinkering to be had.)
Should I make a stirrer for the mash? Or work a hopback in there somewhere? Shall I swop my HLT and MLT around etc. etc...

You can sell or swop parts but not the whole as your needs change.

They both make wort - how great and repeatable it is really depends on you, not the rig anyway.

I haven't used or seen a Braumeister. I can certainly see the appeal, especially if space is an issue but I wouldn't swop my freaky HERMS beast for one, I like having a one of a kind.

I also like the idea of (sort of) having a brewery in miniature. If I could have a real brewery in miniature, I would swop my HERMS for that! Miniaturisation is always a win!


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## doon (31/1/12)

6.6 kg of grain in 20l bm would be absolutely pushing it to its limits. I had around 5.4 in mine and it didn't like it that much


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## Thefatdoghead (31/1/12)

Get the 50L braumeister it's awesome!! If you want to bugger around and have 100% concentration on the brew all day then go down the other road. I like that I can mash in push start and go for a surf or walk the dog or have breakfast etc while it's going through a mash cycle and you end up with 50L of piss!!


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## proudscum (31/1/12)

No turning back for me its Braumeister all the way.No gas bottles to refill and is less than a 1/4 of the floor space of my old 3v system.the reason i didnt get a 50lt was the need for a 15amp plug.was not allowed to have the new tiles cut in the laundry to have a one use plug put in.
Dont listen to all the bollox about my 3v system makes real beer,because i am making better and consistent beers everytime with this system.I know exactly what i am going to get out everytime i put X ingredients and water into my Braumeister.

Last brew wanted 20lt of X gravity of wort in my fermenter and when i ran it off got 20lt of beautiful bright wort with little or no trub transfered.

So for me 3V system retired and mostly sold off.
playing with a Hoprocket upgrade for my Braumeister,so you can still add extra bling along the way.

Cheers SCum


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## Batz (31/1/12)

SJW said:


> I had a full blown 3 vessel system with all the bells and.....you know. I just sold it and bought a 20L BM. Sure there is loads of flexability with the 3v system but the problem is with this (I found) its almost impossible to make the exact same beer twice. There are just so many variables with the 3 vessels that will change the end result.
> I am looking forward to the BM turning up. Apart from price I wanted the 20L as I like brewing and you can get 6.6 kg of grain in a 20L BM.
> 
> Steve




I have done the same for similar reasons. 

This was my brewery build and improved on over 10 years plus, I loved it.





I now own a 50lt BM and love it more. Plus I can now brew where ever I like, I'm not confined to the shed. 
I admit the BM is not for everyone but it suits me down to the ground.

Batz


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## Malted (31/1/12)

Gav80 said:


> Get the 50L braumeister it's awesome!! If you want to bugger around and have 100% concentration on the brew all day then go down the other road. I like that I can mash in push start and go for a surf or walk the dog or have breakfast etc while it's going through a mash cycle and you end up with 50L of piss!!



Hmm, if you BM is full of urine, perhaps you have been forgetting to put the lid on during the mash cycle whilst you are elsewhere? h34r: 


Seriously Gingerbrew, if you can tig weld etc, I'd bet that you are reasonably handy - don't sell yourself out just yet. I love building and tinkering but only wish I had the equipment or know how to tig weld. There is as others have pointed out, a great joy in building a system yourself and then using it to make great beer. Most folks systems evolve as they use them and refine them - there is joy in this, if you are into that sort of thing. I did for a while but the BM suits me better and my missus is actually happier too. 

I like the BM because of the simplicity and repeatability of brewing. It is easy to clean, has a small shed footprint and is simple to operate and I can go and do other things whilst it is mashing. I can set the BM going and then have a BBQ lunch with the missus, sit and have a beer with her etc - she's happier with the BM. 

Seems like there are some good answers in this thread from people on both sides of the fence.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (31/1/12)

Batz said:


> I have done the same for similar reasons.
> 
> This was my brewery build and improved on over 10 years plus, I loved it.
> 
> ...


Still brew in the shed ?
Nev


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## Batz (31/1/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Still brew in the shed ?
> Nev


 No


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## donburke (31/1/12)

i get strong feelings of manliness when firing up my mongolian burners




the roar of power akin to that of a 351 cleveland in an XY GT, chewing gas, spilling out fumes

sure, a subaru wrx would whip its arse, but on testosterone factor, the GT gets it every time

so do you want that wrx that is predictable, corners on a dime, is fuel efficient and quiet ?

or do you want that big heavy muscle car that roaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaars ?


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## Rina (31/1/12)

Wouldn't an analogy to a BMW be more apt?


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## matho (31/1/12)

build your own braumeister


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## beerdrinkingbob (31/1/12)

my 2c

I would be pretty pissed in four years or less if the mighty BM broke down and cost me a fortune to fix, the cost is bad enough but what are the ongoings?

Are there any members that have brewed on them fortnightly for a few years now?

Cheers BDB


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## goldstar (31/1/12)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> my 2c
> 
> I would be pretty pissed in four years or less if the mighty BM broke down and cost me a fortune to fix, the cost is bad enough but what are the ongoings?
> 
> ...



PM MHB if you're really interested to know how they age with use. Mark's had his for years and gets put through its paces regularly in the shop. I brewed on it the other week and it's still as good as new.


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## winkle (31/1/12)

Batz said:


> I have done the same for similar reasons.
> 
> This was my brewery build and improved on over 10 years plus, I loved it.
> 
> ...



Some of those bits look familiar


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## Batz (31/1/12)

winkle said:


> Some of those bits look familiar




I hope your enjoying them, my brewery is now from Brissy to Bundy.

Batz


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## mika (31/1/12)

I think this whole discussion can be summed up with the old AHB phrase...

You're not a real brewer unless you have a March Pump.

Which of the systems has a March Pump ?


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## matho (31/1/12)

the Braumiser


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## edschache (31/1/12)

donburke said:


> so do you want that wrx that is predictable, corners on a dime, is fuel efficient and quiet ?



fuel efficient? maybe compared to old school V8's but the Subarus I drive (3L outback, 2L impreza) certainly aren't the most fuel efficient things... particularly when it's so tempting to give it a bit of wellie. Point taken though. 

Out of the two for me my money would be on the BM due to the limited space I have under the house (no room for a shed as the block is too steep). The beer made on the BM at system wars for the Brisbane home brew conference was a very nice drop to drink.


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## Batz (31/1/12)

matho said:


> the Braumiser




50lt's got two ! :icon_chickcheers:


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## AndrewQLD (31/1/12)

Batz said:


> 50lt's got two ! :icon_chickcheers:




Bloody traitor :angry:


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## pk.sax (31/1/12)

I think if I used a big enough regulator and mounted my spiral burner right I could propel my keggle across the street 

Would be a tough call with electricity  who wants a bloody Prius!


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## Cocko (31/1/12)

GingerBrew,

I tossed this exact coin in the air about 6-8 weeks.....

I chose to build a 3v rig that will last the test of time. It will also give me freedom to mix it up if I feel I need to, similar to set and forget to step mashing but manual in a way... 

I, as others have said, have loved the designing, building and sourcing of parts as a process.. Its very rewarding to think, I need all these bits, take the risk/expense to order them... get them, nervelessly quadruply check and drill some holes in an expensive pot or what ever....

...Then its spot on! = Awesome. I personally really enjoy the build, that feeling of I did that...

But as with most things in HB'ing, the ball is in your court and it simply relates to your needs, situation, environment and, as per your topic maybe not for you, budget.

I would love a 50L BM for many, many reasons but also love the build, design and having something I built to make my beer... the later fell the coin for me!

2.45c 

Choices huh!

:icon_cheers:


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## Batz (31/1/12)

AndrewQLD said:


> Bloody traitor :angry:




I did hang my head in shame for a week or two Andrew, in fact I didn't tell anyone for 6-7 months.
Apart from another local BM owner  

Batz


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## pk.sax (31/1/12)

You've been coming out on a few things recently Batz


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## Cocko (31/1/12)

Batz said:


> 6-7 months.



So how long have you owned it now Batz? and how frequently do you use it?


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## Clutch (31/1/12)

I was in the same boat and I'm going for a 3V.


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## Cocko (31/1/12)

practicalfool said:


> You've been coming out on a few things recently Batz



HAHA! h34r:


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## Crusty (31/1/12)

I beat myself up over this decision time & time again whilst trying to get my 3v Rims system together.
The decision to stay with the 3v I believe was the right one for me & I am finally getting my control box wired tomorrow.
The sparky is doing the work for beer so that's a bonus.
The BM for me is a bit too hands off & higher gravity beers are on my agenda & I don't want to compromise with smaller volumes with the BM.
As far as repeatability goes, I am running a PID with a 2400w element in my Rims tube & consistent temps will always be achieved, so making the exact brew months later should not be an issue. The other downside for me of the BM was the 15A circuit ( renting ) & trying to find $3500.00.
In saying that though, if I added everything up that I have spent up until now, I could of probably paid for the BM anyhow.
I'm happy I stuck it out with the 3v.


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## bradsbrew (31/1/12)

Crusty said:


> I beat myself up over this decision time & time again whilst trying to get my 3v Rims system together.
> The decision to stay with the 3v I believe was the right one for me & I am finally getting my control box wired tomorrow.
> The sparky is doing the work for beer so that's a bonus.
> The BM for me is a bit too hands off & higher gravity beers are on my agenda & I don't want to compromise with smaller volumes with the BM.
> ...


I think the biggest thing in the BM's favor is the control box. If I was able to build a similar PID control box such as Matho done with his and apply it to a 3V I would be a happy camper. Bit more study for me before I attempt that one though.

Cheers


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## Crusty (31/1/12)

bradsbrew said:


> I think the biggest thing in the BM's favor is the control box. If I was able to build a similar PID control box such as Matho done with his and apply it to a 3V I would be a happy camper. Bit more study for me before I attempt that one though.
> 
> Cheers



Matho's done a great job with that for sure.
My control box has a MashMaster controller simply to monitor the temp in the gas fired HLT.
The Pid controller monitors the 2400w element & temp return back to the mash tun.
I have four illuminated switches accross the bottom of the control box, MashMaster on/off, PID on/off, element on/off & march pump on/off.
The beauty of the BM is set & forget as opposed to mine, I have to manually set the temp on the PID & use a timer for each infusion if step mashing. Most of my beers though are simple single infusion, 66deg sacc rest for 60mins, change PID temp to 78deg for mash out, drain & batch sparge. I kinda like the hands on approach though, swapping hoses with the camlocks etc. It does feel as though you are controlling the whole process from start to finish.


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## donburke (31/1/12)

the inability to perfectly replicate a brew ensures that i'm always drinking something different, this is a plus not a negative for my home crafted beer

i can always live with fond memories of that great beer i made back in the year ..... knowing that it will never be again


plus, i wouldnt subscribe to penthouse if it had the same centrefold every month


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## proudscum (31/1/12)

mika said:


> I think this whole discussion can be summed up with the old AHB phrase...
> 
> You're not a real brewer unless you have a March Pump.
> 
> Which of the systems has a March Pump ?




My Braumeister will once my camlocks arrive!


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## Thefatdoghead (31/1/12)

donburke said:


> i get strong feelings of manliness when firing up my mongolian burners
> 
> View attachment 52085
> 
> ...


I doubt you'd feel all that manly when your account blance is zero and you cant afford any grain because you burnt it all up with gas! raaaaaaaarrrrrrrrr


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## Batz (31/1/12)

practicalfool said:


> You've been coming out on a few things recently Batz


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## big d (1/2/12)

practicalfool said:


> You've been coming out on a few things recently Batz



So you dont brew in the shed?
Have you become a closet brewer Batz.
Oh the shame of it all.

Cheers
Big d


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## donburke (1/2/12)

Gav80 said:


> I doubt you'd feel all that manly when your account blance is zero and you cant afford any grain because you burnt it all up with gas! raaaaaaaarrrrrrrrr



if 200 bucks a year spent on gas sends me bust then the least of my concerns will be buying grains


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## SJW (2/2/12)

This was my old system. It broke my heart when it got loaded onto the truck to SA, but $2000 did help


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## humulus (2/2/12)

proudscum said:


> My Braumeister will once my camlocks arrive!


Tell me more!!!,im interested ive got a B.M. and a march pump floating around!!! h34r:


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## Batz (2/2/12)

SJW said:


> This was my old system. It broke my heart when it got loaded onto the truck to SA, but $2000 did help




Hell I should have sold mine as a going concern. I broke mine up and sold it cheaply to the needy :lol: :lol:


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## Batz (2/2/12)

humulus said:


> Tell me more!!!,im interested ive got a B.M. and a march pump floating around!!! h34r:




Pump out of the BM through a chiller and back via a whirpool until you reach pitching or non botulism tempertures.  


Batz


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## raven19 (2/2/12)

Back to the OP - do you like to build things? AND have space in the shed? AND are a tight ass brewer?.... If yes to these three questions, then I would suggest to build your RIMS system (forget the HERMS, RIMS is where its at! h34r: :lol:  )

If you don't have the time to build a brewery, or the space, and have cash to burn go the BM.

...

With a 3V system, you can brew multiple batches almost concurrently - i.e. while beer 1 is boiling, you can mash in beer 2, etc.


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## Batz (2/2/12)

raven19 said:


> Back to the OP - do you like to build things? AND have space in the shed? AND are a tight ass brewer?.... If yes to these three questions, then I would suggest to build your RIMS system (forget the HERMS, RIMS is where its at! h34r: :lol:  )
> 
> 
> ...




Well I can answer yes to all those questions, in fact yes, been there done that.

Now I have a BM :beerbang: Ask anyone of the older brewers here "how much have you spent on your brewery over the last 5 years?" A BM is really not a bad option is it?

Of course I loved building my brewery and at the time I had access to about the best workshop a brewer could need.

Batz


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## Muscovy_333 (2/2/12)

Funny enough, my next project is a Braumeister inspired system.... but ghetto. A.k.a Muscmeister!
Hoping to maintain the 'hands on' aspects of my 3V but contained in a single vessel. 
I have an 80 litre SS pot and a handful of late night drawings so far...
It will be a prototype just like my 3V and i will probably never quite finish it like my 3V.
The Journey is just as fun as the destination for me.
I'll start a thread once i get going on it. 
I'm just bower birding shiny things until then..


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## proudscum (2/2/12)

Batz said:


> Pump out of the BM through a chiller and back via a whirpool until you reach pitching or non botulism tempertures.
> 
> 
> Batz


As above but also run it through a Hoprocket and chill using Jamals whirlpool immersion method.
The plate i am going to use as a prechiller for the water going to the immersion chiller with a recirc pump into an ice bank.

Using ice bank normally get the water to about 11 degree.

The funny thing about this is that i am now going to build a stand for my one vessel one tier BM with my own custom additions

so just because you have a BM doesnt mean you are not going to modify the way its used.


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## kelbygreen (2/2/12)

haha look into matho's thread there is a few guys in there doing this sort of thing and alot have been threw the trial and error stages. Would be the best place to start and sure steve would help you out as much as he can! he is making a full intructions on his build, Not saying copy it but sure there will be things in there you can put into your system


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## Batz (2/2/12)

proudscum said:


> The funny thing about this is that i am now going to build a stand for my one vessel one tier BM with my own custom additions
> 
> so just because you have a BM doesnt mean you are not going to modify the way its used.




I'm doing the same


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## kelbygreen (2/2/12)

haha you will be devored by the end of the year!! even if its coz of me


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## Florian (3/2/12)

Agree on the ability to customise your BM. 

I have even 'developed' a cleaning stand for mine. Couldn't live without it anymore. Pics to follow.


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## cubbie (3/2/12)

Does the 20L and 50L put 20L and 50L inter the fermenter? What sort of gravity beers can you do with the 20L? Massively space poor so my 3V is reaching the end of its life.


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## doon (3/2/12)

With a double mash and 2 hour boil I got 20 litres at 1.093 into fermenter. I usually get around 1.05ish 20l have gotten up to 1.061 with normal mash


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/2/12)

Batz said:


> Well I can answer yes to all those questions, in fact yes, been there done that.
> 
> Now I have a BM :beerbang: Ask anyone of the older brewers here "how much have you spent on your brewery over the last 5 years?" A BM is really not a bad option is it?
> 
> ...


Bull shit! Any thing you put together is better than an over priced piece of euro tech. Tell me the advantage of be disconnected from your brewing.
Nev


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## doon (4/2/12)

How is it being disconnected from your brewing? When I had an urn an esky and pot and burner, I would mash in stir and leave for an hour. Drain to pot boil and throw hops in. Now with bm I mash in leave for an hour lift out grain bring to boil and chuck hops in. 

Not much different but the difference in the quality of beers I make now is massive.


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## proudscum (4/2/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Bull shit! Any thing you put together is better than an over priced piece of euro tech. Tell me the advantage of be disconnected from your brewing.
> Nev




Why dont we all go back to plastic buckets and pots on the stove.

Because of the BM i am now very connected to brewing again and have more joy from the ease of brew day on a time,space and clean up point of view.


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## humulus (4/2/12)

proudscum said:


> As above but also run it through a Hoprocket and chill using Jamals whirlpool immersion method.
> The plate i am going to use as a prechiller for the water going to the immersion chiller with a recirc pump into an ice bank.
> 
> Using ice bank normally get the water to about 11 degree.
> ...


Scum keep us informed with info and pics how you project goes im interested!! (asbestos suit on) i no chill at the moment!!!
cheers Glenn


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## daemon (4/2/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Bull shit! Any thing you put together is better than an over priced piece of euro tech. Tell me the advantage of be disconnected from your brewing.
> Nev


Thanks for your valuable input Nev, we'ed all be misinformed with out it  

I made the choice between a 3V system and Braumeister and went down the path of the 3V system. I love tinkering and continually evolving a system so I'll enjoy building a 3V setup.

I thought about building my own Braumeister clone too, and may still do it eventually  For now I'm about 30% of the way through the build (without a HERMS) and looking forward to getting some free time to finish the build!


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## matho (4/2/12)

Muscovy said:


> Funny enough, my next project is a Braumeister inspired system.... but ghetto. A.k.a Muscmeister!
> Hoping to maintain the 'hands on' aspects of my 3V but contained in a single vessel.
> I have an 80 litre SS pot and a handful of late night drawings so far...
> It will be a prototype just like my 3V and i will probably never quite finish it like my 3V.
> ...


good job muscovy for take the plunge and building your own

if you want to you can always post your build in THIS thread, then we can have all the builds in one place, just saying. 

My thoughts on this topic, build your own  

cheers steve


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