# Strongest Brews Possible



## j1gsaw (28/1/09)

*Howdy fellow Brewers,
While sitting back last night dreaming up my future kit brews, i was pondering some crazy idea about doing either a normal lager or ale, but instead of the usual 1kg of dextrose added, what if i were to throw in.. say, hmmm 5 or 6kg!
(with some hops added and etc)
Im just wanting to see just how high i can go alcohol wise without it tasting like evil dish water..
My current brew of Belgium strong ale should be around 8-9%, but is it possible to reach around 12-15%???
Am i just in dream land? appreciate feedback/recipes or abuse...
cheers...
*


----------



## cdbrown (28/1/09)

It's possible to get high alc beer but you'll need the right yeast for the job.

6kg of dex in 23L is approx 9.85% based on beersmith OG 1.100, FG 1.025
You'd probably want to add some malt for body and bittering hops to get over the sweetness - but I am no expert by any means.


----------



## Muggus (28/1/09)

Get yourself some of this

It takes a bit more than just pitching a yeast into a really high gravity wort to make a beer over 10%.
You'll need plenty of nutrient, to aerate the wort often, add additional sugars WHILST its fermenting, etc. 
And even then you could end up with a beer that tastes like rocket fuel.

But yeah, apparently that White Labs yeast can ferment up to 25% alc/vol...that would require alot of attention though.
Strongest beers in the world(around 30% mark) get that way from the 'eis' technique, not just a heap of sugar.


----------



## Lukes (28/1/09)

Might be to sweet a dream to do as a kit.

I remember Johnny Max and the brew dog from brew crazy did a 10% plus brew.

Best to contact him for the method ( is he still a member here ) or search for posts from him.


----------



## quantocks (28/1/09)

j1gsaw said:


> Am i just in dream land? appreciate feedback/recipes or abuse...
> cheers...



I had a crapload of stuff I wanted to use and get rid of a month or two ago and did a toucan.

1x Coopers Canadian Blonde
1x Coopers Lager
1x 1KG dextrose
2x Kit yeast


ripped through that bastard in no time, according to the hydro it's ~8% (give or take)

I just kegged it last night, I will let you know how it goes.


----------



## WarmBeer (28/1/09)

So, I guess the rationale behind this is to get as neutered as possible?

Why not, rather than aiming for a nigh-undrinkable 12% monster, drink 2 6% beers. Crazy idea, I know!

See that logo at the top right of the page, "A fair go for craft beer". One of their major political selling points of the campaign is the slogan "Drink less, drink better". Rather than associating craft- (and maybe home-) brewing with the legion of VB swilling bogans, they are trying to say better tasting beer is something that can be enjoyed in moderation. Give it a go...

Ok, I'll take my Captain Sensible hat off now.

Have a read in _Brewing Classic Styles_ on how to make an Eisbock. The general overview is you make your beer, then freeze it semi-solid, then let the good stuff (i.e. not water) drip out of the upturned keg into another vessel, leaving a portion of the non-alcoholic stuff behind. Voila, you have just concentrated your beer into something stronger. It would be pretty easy to get something over 10% using this method, and without resorting to wine yeasts.


----------



## marlow_coates (28/1/09)

The answer to 'can you make a good high alcohol beer' with kits is yes.

Doing this with kits just requires a few niceties  and it is just as difficult doing it if you all grain brew IMO

I would recommend going to one of the sponsors websites above and having a look through their yeast selection. This is the most important step as the alcohol tolerance of the yeast will determine what it can handle.

The belgian yeasts can often go to 12 and 13%, or the link above to white labs yeast that goes to 25%.

The higher it gets the more work it involves keeping it going; like correct temps, correct additions of sugar, oxygen pumps etc....

The other issue is balance. If you have lots of alcohol taste only, then the beer taste crap. You need to balance this with some malt for body, and bittering as well.

To do this with kits in a 23L I would use 3 cans.
1 or 2 cans of some kit like coopers pale ale (this will give a decent bit of bittering)
1 or 2 cans of liquid malt extract (or replace this with equivalent dried malt extract)
Either combination will work just depends on what you prefer.

Pitch a good load of your chosen yeast. After it is half done add a kilo of sugar.

You may need to make a few starters of the yeast along the way to keep it ticking, or give the fermenter the occasional swirl.

This will give you a kit + kilo recipe (so to speak) that will give high alcohol % (around 10-11%?) with a solid body and hopefully enough bittering to balance.

You can obviously take this much further, but balancing alcohol, body and bittering in high alcohol beers is what makes them difficult IMHO  

Look up the Sierra Nevada Brewery, or Dog Fish Head Brewery online and view their range. They both experiment with some big beers in successfull ways :beerbang:


----------



## buttersd70 (28/1/09)

Why is there no smiley icon to indicate disgust by shaking head from side to side, with a bewildered look on it's face...............


----------



## dr K (28/1/09)

> The answer to 'can you make a good high alcohol beer' with kits is yes.



I suspect an edit is required viz

The answer to 'can you make a high alcohol beer' with kits is yes.

You can skip the extra sugar and add vodka and I dare say you would get a better result and before you poo-poo wander into a fortified wine making facility and check out what they use certainly not Absolut but certainly a fairly pure spirit often (well in the 70's) from Mr Bean , or was that Beam, though probably not Bourbon.

Wine grapes..12% ABV no worries
Standard Barley brews, 5% no worries.
What a mash wort has lots of and an extract wort does not is FAN (and god knows we all need some FAN at the moment) FAN is essential to yeast health and proper fermentaion. Kits are fine if the instructions are follwed, and sorry 1kg of sugar is not a bad thing for these kits, a malty sort of mix is better but it we are talking small margins of taste. 

K


----------



## Muggus (28/1/09)

dr K said:


> Wine grapes..12% ABV no worries
> Standard Barley brews, 5% no worries.


Grape beer?  


Actually, that sounds way too tempting!


----------



## pmolou (28/1/09)

mead??? got no idea how much alc that can get but im pretty sure its purely honey... so maybe a belgian with lots of honey then using an 'eis' technique ????? or grapes whatever but i think u should give it a go i mean why not


----------



## JonnyAnchovy (28/1/09)

pmolou said:


> mead??? got no idea how much alc that can get but im pretty sure its purely honey... so maybe a belgian with lots of honey then using an 'eis' technique ????? or grapes whatever but i think u should give it a go i mean why not



I'm currently fermenting 4x ultra high gravity polish style meads- 2/3rds plus honey. It's certainly possible, but if you want it to finish up in under a year you really need to step nutrient, and add extra fermentables slowly to avoid high osmatic (sp?) pressures. There is a recipe for a dogfish head ipa clone somewhere on here, and it involves these techniques.


----------



## j1gsaw (29/1/09)

Thanks for your advice gents, shall look into these fancy yeasts.. cheers


----------



## boingk (29/1/09)

Culture a yeast out of a bottle of Chimay/La Trappe/whatever, and appreciate the beer in the meantime. Then realise that you're getting a bit tipsy off just one of the damn things, and that it tasted darn good. 

Use said cultured yeast to make an 'ordinary' Belgian-style brew of 8~10%.

Cheers - boingk


----------



## ford-ute (29/1/09)

I in my early days use a kit of coopers dark ale and 2 kg of dextrose and pitched in so dry enzime and i ended up with a FG 0.096 which was if i remember around the 9.5 normal fementaion no temp control the standard yeast tht came with the kitjust and 8 days in fermenter but it taste like crap too much alcohol and way too watery 

there is also a micro brewry in WA here that is using a champaine yeast to make his barley wine and he just got rave review in the news paper


----------



## caleb (29/1/09)

j1gsaw said:


> *...
> I was pondering some crazy idea about doing either a normal lager or ale, but instead of the usual 1kg of dextrose added, what if i were to throw in.. say, hmmm 5 or 6kg!
> (with some hops added and etc)
> *


Well, my advice is to use extra malt instead of extra dextrose, which seems to be the general consensus. 5 or 6 kg dex added to a 1.7kg kit will definitely produce something thin and evil tasting - probably like beer with a big shot of the cheapest nastiest white rum in it.

Stick with around 1kg dex, but add extra liquid malt extract instead.



j1gsaw said:


> *My current brew of Belgium strong ale should be around 8-9%, but is it possible to reach around 12-15%???*


*
*Have you tried "Bush" - a belgian ale which comes in 250ml bottles and is 12% alc. Dan's has it sometimes. 
Then there are the german eisbocks - real "ice" beer, not the marketing BS of some Australian "ice" beers...  
I know there are a few other beers around the 12-15% that get made. There is something called "Samichlaus" (Santa Claus) made by Hurlimann's brewery in Switzerland, which is 14% alc.



j1gsaw said:


> *Am i just in dream land? appreciate feedback/recipes or abuse...*


*
*How did you make the Belgian?

I've found you can make a decent kit strong belgian style with:
1 x 3kg Xtract kit from Country Brewer
1 x 1.5kg liquid malt extract
1 x 1kg dextrose or brew enhancer type mix (dex/malt blend)

I'd suggest using around 250-500 grams steeped grains as well for flavor and color.

Ferment using an appropriate yeast, and you should get close to 10% (maybe 9.5%)

It will taste great, especially if aged 3-6 months!

I used a Pilsener kit, 1.5kg liquid amber, 1kg light/dark blend (50% dex, 25% LDME, 25% DDME), + 500g steeped crystal and 75g steeped choc. Comes out looking and tasting like Leffe Radius. Now this was fermented with WB-06 (  ) because I couldn't get anything else at the time, and I wanted the clovey spicy taste it gives. Worked a treat actually - fermented around 15-18 deg and it tasted like cloves. I did add dregs from a bottle of Rochefort as well though...

Maybe if instead of a single 1kg brew enhancer, I used 1kg dry malt and 1kg dextrose, it'd get over 10%, probably close to 12...

If you want to do it, do it right. Make something delicious. Do you want something deep and rich and malty to drink this winter instead of port? Or a light golden champagne replacement like Duvel? Decide what you want and have a chat to your local homebrew shop.


----------



## j1gsaw (29/1/09)

When i made the belgium strong ale, i used a can of Coopers Prem Sparkling Ale, 
3kg of light malt extract, 
500g glucose and Safale 04 yeast.
I didnt use my brain hard enough to chuck in some hops (dammit)
Im keeping the fingers crossed it will turn out drinkable, it has been in the fermenter for 5 days so far, The Hydro readings are getting stable so i should be bottling it soon. The first 2 days it sat around 24 deg and bubbled its heart out, then i scored a freezer box and have had it at 18 deg for the last 3 days etc. I did have a quick taste from the hydro tube this morning and Bang! it wasnt offensive to the taste-buds but could certainly fear the headache in it.. Im guessing it should be around the 9% area.


----------



## quantocks (29/1/09)

just to update, I just poured my first glass of my strongest brew to date.

it's ~8%, toucan and has been in the keg conditioning for almost 2 months. I reckon one glass of this and I'll be done for the night, wouldn't make again. Definitely not until winter.


----------



## Fatgodzilla (29/1/09)

Call me a nark but I still can't find any sensible reason for me to brew a beer in excess of (say) 5%. If I want to get pickled, Bundaberg Fighting Juice does it for me. I like making beers around 3.5% - 4.5% and drinking quite a few of them, rather than struggle through a bottle of potent beer. Good luck to my fellow brewers who are into duppels, truppels, eisbocks, imperials etc .. just reckon they are a good beer ruined being that strong !

Any noobie who wants to brew a super duper brew, do it early and get it out of your sysytem. Then wake up and make something drinkable. As you get old and grumpy like me, you'll realise that the attitude of doing something just cause you can isn't good thinking.

I'll go now and drink my cocoa, take my pills and have a nap .........................


----------



## KingPython (29/1/09)

I brewed a RIS, 3 cans of goo and .500 sugar. Shit kept on bubbling out of the airlock. Fun times. Fun times.


----------



## Pollux (29/1/09)

Reading this, and also throwing in factors like it's too hot to brew a real beer and I am sort on ingredients almost makes me want to use the leftover coopers kit yeasts with some table sugar and water, then simply mix with cordial in the glass to make a carbonated alcopop......


Question is, how much could that yeast handle without a nutrient,


----------



## MarkBastard (29/1/09)

I used to distill (drinking water and essential oils) and from memory I used 6kg white sugar or 7kg dex, plus 'turbo yeast', and it made a ~22% milky white disgusting liquid. Distilling got it to ~75%. I think it's impossible to have 100% alcohol in the atmosphere, because it starts sucking water out of the air and dilutes itself down.

As for the highest percent non distilled drink, well at least 22% but I don't know why you'd bother. Can't imagine too many beers over 15% taste any good, better off with a decent bottle of scotch.


----------



## brendanos (29/1/09)

I brewed a RIS (all grain ie no dextrose or simple sugars) that came out at 13% and finished around 1.020 - not at all sweet, heavy, or cloying. I think the most important factor is yeast strain, pitching rates, and ensuring adequate nutrients in the wort (so if a large portion of dextrose is used you'll want to add a lot of yeast nutrient, or consider adding the sugars mid way through fermentation to let the yeast tackle the complex stuff first). I pitched 2 smack packs of a VSS release from wyeast (4366) designed for high gravity (up to 20%) brewing into 12-13L of 1.110 wort and splashed quite furiously.

You could also consider champagne yeast to finish off the brew when the ale yeast gives up.


----------



## JonnyAnchovy (29/1/09)

totally aggre with most of the above sentiments. Why waste the time and ingredients making something undrinkable when you can get the same effect by whacking yourself over the back of the head with a pool-ball in a sock.

THAT SAID..... I'm all for experimenting with extreme and non-trad brews - Braggot, Gruit ales etc are all on the cards for me over the next 12 months. Most are destined to be failures, but I think its worth it for those rare sucesses.


geez - took me 5 hours to write all that! damm work getting in the way of my forum posting!


----------



## Jazzafish (29/1/09)

Taste vodka. That is what alcohol tastes like. You'll need to add some malt and hops to mask the alcohol flavour to a certain point, or it will be harder to drink than a normal beer.


----------



## marlow_coates (29/1/09)

To those who can't see the worth in brewing a high alcohol beer...
I say where is your sense of adventure  

Creating a high alcohol beer with some intensely rich flavours that balances well is an artform (one I don't claim to be particularly good at... yet), as is brewing anything specific that requires some thought and experimentation.

I of course understand that very few people could, or would want, to sit around and drink something that is 15% out of a pint glass all afternoon. I certainly don't, and I brew 4-5% beers for that purpose.

But what about for those after dinner-party drinks? The bottle of something special you stored for 5 years to see what would happen?

The big beers I brew aren't for quaffing, they are for ageing and enjoying at special events where it is nice to have something different that I made myself. Sure it's not eveyones cup of tea, but something I am finding fun and rewarding at the moment.

I agree with Fatgodzila, and others here in one regard.
If you only want to make a high alcohol beer to get para off, then good luck, enjoy the headaches and when you want to start making beers that taste like beer and not vodka and soda water, this site will be waiting for you


----------



## buttersd70 (29/1/09)

marlow_coates said:


> To those who can't see the worth in brewing a high alcohol beer...
> I say where is your sense of adventure



I think that most people that have commented negatively (at least from my own perspective), have no issue with high alcohol beer _per se_.....but more with the method of production, ie just adding lots of dextrose to up the gravity. A good high alc beer is indeed a thing of beauty (as is a good low alc beer, fwiw), but just pushing the OG through the roof with large amounts of simple fermentable is not (at least imo) the way to go about it. If you want it to be good, that is.


----------



## Dave86 (29/1/09)

I don't want to offer advice on how to make a supercharged VB, but I think a good pilsener kit, or two pale ales/draught kits with some dex/DME mix could be an alright place to start for a tripel/BGSA. Some calculation would be required for determing BU:GU, etc, but I think it could work. 

On the topic of strong beers, while I can appreciate the beauty of a session beer (one of my best was 3%) bigger beers are an entirely different product. So unless you only ever drink beer under 5% and don't enjoy wine, port, a good whiskey, or any other alcoholic beverage over 5%, I'd say your point isn't really valid


----------



## Thirsty Boy (29/1/09)

I think DrK had the most sensible idea of all - brew a decent beer with enough flavour to carry the alcohol, the fortify it with a neutral tasting spirit. The you can take whatever you have fermented, a glass and a bottle of vodka or whatever and work out just how much of the spirit you can add and have it still taste good... scale up for the full amount.

That's how they make port, muscat etc etc and it gives you control over the outcome. Alcohol is just alcohol, the only difference between adding vodka to the fermented beer and adding dex before fermentation, is that someone else has made the yeast do the work for you and then taken away the possibility of off flavours that have a fair chance of happening in your fermentor.


----------



## muckanic (30/1/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Alcohol is just alcohol, the only difference between adding vodka to the fermented beer and adding dex before fermentation, is that someone else has made the yeast do the work for you and then taken away the possibility of off flavours that have a fair chance of happening in your fermentor.



Ethyl acetate levels go through the roof with high gravity ferments unless appropriate counter-measures are taken.Think nail polish remover with a sour undertone. Much of the art of high-gravity brewing involves making one that doesn't overwhelm with its congeners, or which winds up as a sweet sickly mess. I also find putting 'em in a permeable secondary for a prolonged period to simulate winemaking can add interest. No-one seems to get too upset about the strength of wine, but then of course it isn't drunk by the pint.


----------



## Swinging Beef (30/1/09)

My favorite styles of beers are English Barley Wines and Belgian Strong Ales
These are often in the 8 - 12% range.
They arent that hard to make, but like all good beer, hard to perfect.

With the Barley Wines, time is your friend, and you just want the yeasties to sit in the bottle as long as possible to pull out as much of the sugar as they can, while still remaining full of malt body goodness.

With Belgians, add sugar to help get the body dowm and not become to sweet or cloying.


----------



## Fourstar (30/1/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Why is there no smiley icon to indicate disgust by shaking head from side to side, with a bewildered look on it's face...............




Totally agree.

Best responses so far are Dr k and thirsty boy. Personally i would go for a Eisbock but i know of allot of people that dont like the taste of a syrupy/heavy undercarbonated malt beverage that finishes at around 1.020. I guess you could always thin that out with adding a neutral spirit e.g. vodka and see how she goes. In saying that a standard drink of this would be very liquor-esqe and would be sipped like port/brandy. and would be quite hard to pull off as something 'drinkable'

define drinkable? something you can have a mouthful of and not want to bring it up immediatly, unlike swigging on a bottle of bourbon. :icon_vomit:


----------



## reviled (30/1/09)

Fourstar said:


> unlike swigging on a bottle of bourbon. :icon_vomit:



But a shot of (good quality) bourbon :icon_drool2:


----------



## David Lang (19/2/09)

For what it's worth, this Kit + extract turned out pretty nicely, especially after a few months to mature:
*The Ultimate Winter Warmer:*


2 cans Chocolate Mahogany Porter (use only one yeast sachet)
2 kg light liquid malt extract
20 gram Saaz hop pellets, added before fermentation (boil the pellets in 200-400 mL of water or 10% malt extract solution for 2 minutes, strain into the fermenter, press the liquid out of the hops)
totally pinched from http://www.cascadehomebrew.com.au/brewkits/recipes.asp

should be about 9-10%, not sessionable, but way tasty, like a nice port or a PX sherry


----------



## ant (20/2/09)

Lukes said:


> Might be to sweet a dream to do as a kit.
> 
> I remember Johnny Max and the brew dog from brew crazy did a 10% plus brew.
> 
> Best to contact him for the method ( is he still a member here ) or search for posts from him.


Johnny Max actually made a 21% AG beer called Cause of Death. Just because it was said it couldn't be done. Sometimes its worth making a beer just because. Dogfish Head make a 21% 120 Minute IPA, which uses a fair but of adjunct, but is a well balanced beer. A sipper to be sure.


----------



## brettprevans (20/2/09)

ok no comments on why you want to make it, or if you should or anything like that.

K&K high alc beer thats drinkable. yes you could make piss fire water by fermenting a shite load of fermentables but it tates etrrible and give you a headache. so something that you can drink. you need the right balance of ingrediants and a good alc tolerantr yeast.

Hers a few recipes

*Hangover madness*
muntons nut brown ale
500g black fern unhopped wheat malt
500g coopers amber malt
1kg LDME
1.5kg morgans unhopped extra pale malt extract
500g belgian candy sugar
10g hersbrucker hops
10g styrian
23L
22g T-58 yeast
SG 1074, FG 1018
9.5%

*RIS*
500g cracked roast barley
500g cracked light crystal
1.7kg can Draught
1.7kg can Porter
1.7kg can Stout
1.25kg dex
0.250kg malto dex
0.5kg LDME 

60g styrian @ 60min
40g EKG @ 15min
20g saaz @ flameout

40g of yeast preferable made into a starter.
OG 1115, and an FG 1028. ~12.2%


now with esither of these recipes you could increase the amounts or change slightly to make higher in alc or to your taste. I have done a variaation on the RIS receipe above and it was great actually. Then as Muggas said youve got to have plenty of nutrient, to aerate the wort often, add additional sugars WHILST its fermenting, etc


----------



## Luka (20/2/09)

I know a guy that made an Eisbock a couple years back, hard to work out the exact finishing alcohol but we put it around 16%ABV


----------



## brettprevans (20/2/09)

i think eisbock may be a little out of this guys brewing comfort zone. its not exactly a simple no hassle process. I actyually dont think he'd get what he wants from it anyway. he probably wouldnt like the taste. its an quired thing not to everyones liking. 

Im just assuming here i could be wrong of course as I dont know this bloke at all.


----------



## Luka (20/2/09)

Muggus said:


> Grape beer?
> 
> 
> Actually, that sounds way too tempting!



Sorry OT
I made an ale with grapes added in the secondary, it was a particular variety that is red juiced but hard to come by. Helps if you work at one of the few wineries that uses it B) Anyway I used it for mostly colour and some flavour, but it didn't turn out how I wanted, have to tweak the recipe, again sorry to be a bit OT


----------



## Luka (20/2/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> i think eisbock may be a little out of this guys brewing comfort zone. its not exactly a simple no hassle process. I actyually dont think he'd get what he wants from it anyway. he probably wouldnt like the taste. its an quired thing not to everyones liking.
> 
> Im just assuming here i could be wrong of course as I dont know this bloke at all.



I think that style is an aquired taste for even the experienced among us, like a barley wine on 'roids.


----------



## Muggus (20/2/09)

Luka said:


> I think that style is an aquired taste for even the experienced among us, like a barley wine on 'roids.


I reckon alot of the barley wines out there are a bit more intense than an eisbock. 
Eisbocks start off as quite smooth, lightly bittered beers and its all concertrated in the eising process, whereas a BW has all of its intensity in flavour, bitterness, and alcohol from the get go.
From the eisbocks i've been lucky enough to try, though strong alcohol-wise, they reminded me more of a muscat or tawny port, rich and thick with concertrated fruitiness and malt character.
With BW, the malt body isn't as concertrated and viscous (to put a word to it) as an Eis, so theres not as much richness/sweetness to soak up the intensity of the hops and malt. 
I guess if an Eisbock is the tawny port of the beer world, the Barley wine would be the big, gutsy, dry Aussie Shiraz or Cab Sav. Bit rough when young, but bloody beautiful.


Always makes me wonder what an Eis-Barley Wine would be like... :blink:


----------

