# Brewing salts packages



## snails07 (30/1/17)

Wondering if there would be any interest in being able to buy a 'brewing salts package'.

You would choose your style of beer and the package would include all the necessary salts to treat a 23 litre batch for that style (using RO water).
So you would buy a Stout package or an IPA package and it would have a measured and calculated amount of salts for that style.
Price would be around $5 - $7 delivered or cheaper if bought in packs of 3 or 5 or whatever.

Obviously not everyone is using RO water but just wanting to gauge interest.
My thoughts would be that if you are playing around with water and salt additions, then you probably want to do it all yourself - but thought I would throw it out there anyway.


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## n87 (30/1/17)

Something like a 'starter pack' with enough of each salt for a handful of brews could be handy.


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## snails07 (30/1/17)

n87 said:


> Something like a 'starter pack' with enough of each salt for a handful of brews could be handy.


Yeah that could be a good option for people


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## SBOB (30/1/17)

snails07 said:


> Wondering if there would be any interest in being able to buy a 'brewing salts package'.
> 
> You would choose your style of beer and the package would include all the necessary salts to treat a 23 litre batch for that style (using RO water).
> So you would buy a Stout package or an IPA package and it would have a measured and calculated amount of salts for that style.
> ...


Personally I would think that if someones gone to the effort of RO water, then using something like Bru'n Water spreadsheet and buying salts/acids in bulk is a pretty small extra step


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## razz (30/1/17)

I don't see why not snails. For the record I use Brunwater and measure my own, but I noticed that some of the Grain n grape all grain recipes come with salts for a given kit. Good luck with it.


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## Danscraftbeer (30/1/17)

snails07 said:


> Wondering if there would be any interest in being able to buy a 'brewing salts package'.
> 
> You would choose your style of beer and the package would include all the necessary salts to treat a 23 litre batch for that style (using RO water).
> So you would buy a Stout package or an IPA package and it would have a measured and calculated amount of salts for that style.
> Price would be around $5 - $7 delivered or cheaper if bought in packs of 3 or 5 or whatever.


Um. I have to be the tight arse to say that's a hard sell I think. $5 to $7 added to only a 23lt batch?
My tinkering would be an unmeasurable expense for 23lt. Maybe $0.02 

$0.02


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## damoninja (30/1/17)

I'm a bit of a skeptic when it comes to starter kits and so on for the sake of convenience. 

Only because I automatically assume 1/10 the quantity is going to cost me 5 times as much as if I bought it in a larger quantity, 

If it were only a reasonable amount higher on account of packaging / handling, I'd give it a look.


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## klangers (31/1/17)

I agree with others in saying that if someone's at the stage that they're using RO water and understand water chemistry, then procuring fairly common and cheap salts is the easiest step.

My 2c is that I can't see the profitability in selling extremely small quantities of a commodity.


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## MHB (31/1/17)

damoninja said:


> I'm a bit of a skeptic when it comes to starter kits and so on for the sake of convenience.
> Only because I automatically assume 1/10 the quantity is going to cost me 5 times as much as if I bought it in a larger quantity,
> If it were only a reasonable amount higher on account of packaging / handling, I'd give it a look.


And there in lies the answer. It isn't uncommon for the cost of packaging to be higher than that of the product.
When you are costing a product the three main components are: -

The cost of the ingredient - doesn't change with package size
Packaging material - jars, bags... and remember labels. You will use 10 times as many bags/jars and labels - the unit cost wont be much different
Labour - it takes about the same amount of time to weigh 50g into a bag as it does to weigh 500g, if you were weighing out a 25kg bag of Calcium Sulphate, naturally you have to pay someone 10 times as much.
If you want to think it through, wright up a scenario, say a bag of Whinge cost $100, that the packaging costs about $1/unit and whoever is doing the packaging at the rate of (print labels, stick onto bag/jar, fill package, check weight and adjust, pack units into boxes and place in warehouse) say 30u/h.
25kg in 500g packages - 50 units. Whinge $100, Packaging $50, labour at $35/hour $58 = 208/50 = $4.16 Cost/kg = $8.32
25kg in 50g packages - 500 units. Whinge $100, Packaging $500, labour at $35/hour $583 = 583/500 = $1.17 Cost/kg = $23.40

Far from exact, but I have done enough of this type of costing to know its the way it really works.
Mark


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## manticle (31/1/17)

Granted but on the other hand, a smart retailer needs to make the value or demand for the package attractive to the customer.

In this instance I can't see that effort vs reward (on part of retailer) vs convenience vs reward (on part of customer) really stacks up. Easy to weigh required salts for your beer, per beer, pain in arse for retailer to do multiple quantities.

And how is it calculated? By alleged water profiles in beersmith? 

OP: good luck with it if you go down that road. Not something I'd be chasing though.


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## Bribie G (31/1/17)

It might be attractive to beginning brewers but once you get your wings, it doesn't take long to suss out that you can buy most of the salts for just cents per brew.
For example a $4 box of epsom salts from Aldi or a kilo of CaCl2 from the pool shop will do you for years. I'm still on my original pack of gypsum from Craftbrewer from 2009.


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## MHB (31/1/17)

Oh I agree completely, point is if you want the "convenience" of smaller packages someone is going to pay for it. If the retailer doesn't account for costs they will go broke.
If you want another classic example, convert the cost of CO2 in 16g bulbs, soda stream bottles and a refill at your LHBS into $/kg.
Mark


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## MHB (31/1/17)

Bribe
I wouldn't use Damprid or Swimming pool Calcium Chloride in beer. There is too much Cadmium contamination in industrial grade CaCl2 for comfort Cadmium is a common contaminant in Calcium Chloride and unless you plan to use it for food grade applications its too expensive to remove.
The other minor point is that industrial product very rarely has the amount of moisture specified, which makes doing any calculations problematic.
Mark


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## damoninja (31/1/17)

MHB said:


> And there in lies the answer. It isn't uncommon for the cost of packaging to be higher than that of the product.
> When you are costing a product the three main components are: -
> 
> The cost of the ingredient - doesn't change with package size
> ...


Yeah I get it  I work in service improvement for an enterprise service company so the concept of labour is not a forgeign one. Not a whinge just an observation  

I'm very much a buy in bulk and save over long term guy with all my brewing gear to keep the costs down overall, not to say I never buy things in small quantities but I'd be more inclined to go for a medium sized lot over a minuscule eg. I never buy 10kg nor 100g of sodium percarbonate, but I'll buy 1-2kg


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## Bribie G (31/1/17)

Cadmium?
Hah.... that's why God gave us two kidneys.


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## Benn (31/1/17)

Haha, imagine if home brew shops started selling mini zip loc bags of white powder, that'd just about be the straw that broke authorities back.


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## HBHB (31/1/17)

I'd probably hold off on a deposit on a sheep station just yet.

We currently do them in-store for $1.00 a pack and maybe move 20 a week for local brewers who don't want to think it through and do the homework.

They're done in spare time in batches of 20-25 per profile with no hope of cost recovery of time invested (basically it's a sub cost service)

They're costed into the recipe packs for a total value on cost recovery of goods only for between 7c and 55c.

.....and some have problems coping with $1.00 additional costs for a 23L batch.

Just sayin'


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## manticle (31/1/17)

Hi HBHB

How do you work out amounts to include (out of interest)?

Is it based on RO water?
Historical water profiles or something else?

Cheers


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## n87 (31/1/17)

If its locals, you could assume they are using local water?


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## manticle (31/1/17)

Limits the market if you ship all around the country. So many variables to consider.


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## mstrelan (31/1/17)

HBHB said:


> .....and some have problems coping with $1.00 additional costs for a 23L batch.


Well that's just ridiculous. Isn't it true that having an appropriate water profile could improve efficiency, and therefore end up saving money?


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## HBHB (31/1/17)

mstrelan said:


> Well that's just ridiculous. Isn't it true that having an appropriate water profile could improve efficiency, and therefore end up saving money?


I would think that overall savings in efficiency would add up to maybe (maybe) a cent or two.

Manticle, we worked off a bunch of east coast water profiles and averaged them. The actual number of guys using RO water in the general brewing population is pretty small by %. The additions in the recipe packs are based on a broad sword approach, but work pretty well based on feedback. The locals packs are based on our water supply based on a series of reports that were averaged out quarterly over about 4 years

Most of the brewers we deal with regularly are aware of locally hard water and we can tailor the additions or they do it themselves. 

There's no simple solution aside from knowing your local water or RO and doing appropriate additions (or none at all if that suits the style).


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## manticle (31/1/17)

Cool, cheers. Missed local in the first post.


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