# Chill Haze



## randyrob (26/10/07)

Hey Guys,

20 something batches and i've finally got some chill haze:






only thing i can think off i've done differently is used Barrett Burston Galaxy Pilsner Malt

which i never have used before and increased my batch size from 25L to 40L.

i wonder if my 4 ring burner isn't up to the job of keeping a nice hard boil of 50L of starting wort.

Here's a pic when the boil started to take off:




it seemed good enough, took a bit longet to get up to the boil than 30L.

i'm not really interested in patching it up and using Polyclar VT, i was more interested in fixing the problem

i know many people seem to have chill haze with Marris Otter but i've never had a problem, could it have been my base malt?

Rob.

EDIT: oy yeah i boiled this batch for 75 minutes.


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## randyrob (26/10/07)

ok i've been mulling this over in my head for the last few minutes and i think one contributing factor could be i only used a standard 25l batch wirlflock addition.
hmm....could that be it?


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## randyrob (26/10/07)

another one is my brewing gear has moved house and i'm using a different water source.

d'oh so many variables when u think of it.


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## haysie (26/10/07)

relax....... u will work it out. plenty more to be concerned about re. brewing, haze is ok. depends if you want too impress the chemist from "fosters" if it tastes great drink it!! sorry i cant answer ur question :icon_offtopic:


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## goatherder (26/10/07)

I'm interested in what you find out randyrob. I suspect it isn't the water but it may be either the whirlfloc, the intensity of the boil or the new malt. How about brewing a 25l batch with the new malt or switching back to your normal malt with a 50l batch? That would eliminate one variable.


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## Tony (26/10/07)

Hi mate.

there is a good chance its a combo of a few things as you said.

New malt........I got this with IMC ale malt. first 2 beers i made with it looked like i put milk in the keg. went to a thick mash 52 deg protein rest (1.8 liters/kg) and infused to mash temp with boiling water after a 15 min rest. End result was a briliantl clear beer.... unfiltered.

also water is a big one...... Haze will be formed if your mash pH is out, the water in tamworth had a high ph. I used to spen a fortune on acid for my pool trying to keep it down under 8pH. My pale beers suffered from chill haze and i had to resort to large amounts of acidulated malt to clear it up. gives the beer a tang though.

moved to the hunter valey and i havnt had to buy acid for the pool here. water is much lower pH and i have much less problems.

maybe a bit of CaCl in the mash and a quick protein rest. I find the protein rest really helps the break forn up better as well. Its bigger and chiunkier and drops out faster.

hope this helps

cheers


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## Guest Lurker (26/10/07)

What suburb did you move from/to. If you go from a groundwater source suburb to a dam source suburb, it does change the water significantly in Perth. Plus what everyone else said. Plus another possible, if you have upsized your batches, maybe you have a less well mixed mash with some doughballs hiding in it. So yeah, check the water pH and maybe adjust, mix the mash well, get a good rolling boil, maybe boil a bit longer (I do 80 mins as standard), use a bit more whirlfloc, see how that goes.


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## Tony (26/10/07)

I never boil for more than 60 min and add my bittering hops at 45 min.

I dont think really long boils are mecessary for clear beer...... not at my place anyway. I good rolling boil is more important if you ask me.

this beer was 100% pale ale malt, in the keg 1 week unfiltered, i think it was the 3rd schooner from the keg.

Its even clearer now.

cheers


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## Tony (26/10/07)

just thought of something else...... did you use lots of late hops or dry hop?

that will do it too.


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (26/10/07)

I have taken the lazy bastard route and am experimenting with Polyclar ( thanks Andrew).
Just split a batch of Belgian Pale, and will post results.

Sorry I can't give you a solution Rob, chill haze haunts me occasionally, but not every brew. Can't pin it down though.


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## goatherder (26/10/07)

It seems to haunt me every time I use Bairds Maris Otter and mostly not with other malts.


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## Tony (26/10/07)

funny........i have used bags and bags of MO and never had a problem with it...... even at 100% grist.... no haze.

I think it comes down to different brewin g systems......... different beer results.

RR.... you will have to experiment to sort it if you want to use this malt. I like the IMC ale, thats why i worked on the protein rest to solve the haze problem. Its a PITA but its results are worth it in the long run.

cheers


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## Ross (26/10/07)

Tony said:


> . My pale beers suffered from chill haze and i had to resort to large amounts of acidulated malt to clear it up. gives the beer a tang though.



I agree, should only be used in small amounts. I've tried using citric acid as well, but i could taste it in the brew, so never again. Maybe, you should have used polyclar & hopefully cleared it up without ruining the taste B) .

Cheers Ross


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## Tony (26/10/07)

Im with RR on the subject of getting it right to start with. less chemicals and additives the better IMO. I like to get things right to start with. not fix it after i have got it wrong.

I have had some polyclar in my fridge for 12 months now. someone sent it to me to try, i think it was ash in perth, but i dont plan to use it. I plan to brew without chill haze.

thats just me and my incesant perfectionest personality

cheers


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## Ross (26/10/07)

Tony,

You use kettle finings don't you?? Polyclar is basically a post ferment fining & it provides a very good fix for haze issues, I personally have no issues using it against any other finings. I wouldn't call it a chemical or an additive, as it's an inert plastic, that drops completely out your beer. Preferable in my book to adding acids etc to your mash, which are chemicals & additives. B) 

Cheers Ross


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## Keith the Beer Guy (26/10/07)

Ross said:


> Polyclar is basically ... I wouldn't call it a chemical ...


Ahhh, Ross; I see you subscribe to the The George W. school of definitions.

Keith


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## Ross (26/10/07)

Keith the Beer Guy said:


> Ahhh, Ross; I see you subscribe to the The George W. school of definitions.
> 
> Keith



 - I don't believe it's any more an additive than say whirlfloc...


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## NickB (27/10/07)

Hi,

I noticed that since I've started boiling very vigorously for at least 60 mins, that chill haze has become a distant memory. This, along with a good dose of kettle finings (I use Koppafloc - about 1/2 - 1 tsp per 25L about 15 mins before the end of the boil). I know Ross and others advocate a 90 min boil, which may help as well (I've yet to try it as I always hit my volumes with a 60 min boil).

Also, at least a week or two of cold conditoning will really help drop out any haze, yeast, proteins etc left in suspension. If you keg, filtering would also be an option of course!

BTW, I bottle, don't measure my mash PH, and I No-Chill as well (that's a whole 'nother can of worms...etc....!!!)

Cheers


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## randyrob (27/10/07)

Guest Lurker said:


> What suburb did you move from/to. If you go from a groundwater source suburb to a dam source suburb, it does change the water significantly in Perth. Plus what everyone else said. Plus another possible, if you have upsized your batches, maybe you have a less well mixed mash with some doughballs hiding in it. So yeah, check the water pH and maybe adjust, mix the mash well, get a good rolling boil, maybe boil a bit longer (I do 80 mins as standard), use a bit more whirlfloc, see how that goes.



Hey Guys,

i've moved from Cannington to East Cannington but my brewing gear moved from Cannington To East Vic Park.

i've done another mash and have implemented as much suggested as possible.

used 2-3% accidutated malt in mash, mixed my mash very well, boiled for 90 minutes, used the correct amount
of wirlfloc. couldn't do too much about the boil tho as i'm forced to brew outside where i'm brewing i've got
a windguard but pretty sure the wind takes away a bit of the flame/heat away. as soon as i find somewhere
else inside to brew i'll be doing that as well.

i've got a NASA Burner to use in place of the 4 ring burner just haven't had a minute to fit it yet, so that will
improve my system and give me a nice hard boil!

i'll grab a ph meter for my next brew and start monitoring that.

wanna know the real clinch, the brew subject to chill haze is my xmas case  

i just brewed a double batch so i could drink a keg of it and evaluate it for myself before subjecting
the sandgropers to it.

i'll find soon enough if this batch is a goer or not.

it's all good fun Rob.

thanks for everyones help on this!


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## bindi (27/10/07)

Only one of the beers on tap has chill haze, and you know what? I would not swap it for the other 3.
Just enjoy the taste.


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## Tony (27/10/07)

Ross......yeah i know mate. i just like getting things write...... its a challenge i like to tackle.

I dont use acids ect any more.....just a 52 deg protein rest for 15 min.

shiny clear beer without filtering too  I just took this pic. cold glass from the fridge, beer at about 3 or 4 deg.

all i did was rack it to secondary for a week and dump it in the keg. put it in the fridge and let it carb for a week. Bobs your uncle. 

The protein rest seems to make the break bigger and heavier. settles out wonderfully. the US-05 is great flocker too.

cheers


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## Jye (28/10/07)

I suffer from a slight chill haze problem, nothing like what you have Rob. Tried a lot of things to correct it but have now resorted to just using gelatine or polyclar.

Here is a great article from brew rats that may give you some tips on correcting the problem.


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## JSB (28/10/07)

Woooow good article there Jye.....

Cheers
JSB


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## BoilerBoy (28/10/07)

Tony said:


> Ross......yeah i know mate. i just like getting things write...... its a challenge i like to tackle.
> 
> I dont use acids ect any more.....just a 52 deg protein rest for 15 min.
> 
> ...



I have found exactly the same.
I had on going chill haze problems except for Aussie pale ale styles which contained larger percentages of unmalted wheat and flaked barley, which I always did a 50-52C rest for and the resulting beer was always really clear.
I now always do it 
I know many will say the rest is not needed with todays modified malts and I dont know enough to dissagree, I just go with what seems to work.

Cheers
BB


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## bindi (28/10/07)

BoilerBoy said:


> I have found exactly the same.
> I had on going chill haze problems except for Aussie pale ale styles which contained larger percentages of unmalted wheat and flaked barley, which I always did a 50-52C rest for and the resulting beer was always really clear.
> I now always do it
> I know many will say the rest is not needed with todays modified malts and I dont know enough to dissagree, I just go with what seems to work.
> ...




I do the same <_< a 52c rest [over 60 mashes with this rest] , but did not do it for 3 mashers, but as of yesterday i have gone back to what works for me.
Was not going to post that I still do a 52c rest as I was sure I would be "flamed" for doing so with modified malts.

Edit: typos


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## clay (28/10/07)

So Bindi, Tony and Boiler Boy. Do you notice any loss of body or head retention using a protien rest with todays modified malts? I gather not if you keep doing it.

I'm keen to try this as I always seem to get some level of chill haze in my brews.

If I do a 52*C rest with 1.8L/Kg how much boiling water do I need to get up to mash temps. I'm a little restricted with my mas tun volumes


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## oldbugman (28/10/07)

get some beer brewing software like promash.

It has a mash designer/scheduler


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## bindi (28/10/07)

OldBugman said:


> get some beer brewing software like promash.
> 
> It has a mash designer/scheduler



Beersmith Is a good one with a free trial version.


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## Ross (28/10/07)

Only grain I've ever had a haze problem with is MO. I tried protien rests, but unfortunately to no avail. Since using polyclar, never had an issue.

I'll be buggered if I'm going to do protein rests on every brew, when I can floc the haze out (if required) with 5gms of polyclar whilst cold conditioning  

Not knocking the protien resters, whatever rocks your boat B) 

Cheers Ross


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## bindi (28/10/07)

Ross said:


> when I can floc the haze out (if required) with 5gms of polyclar whilst cold conditioning
> 
> Not knocking the protien resters, whatever rocks your boat
> 
> Cheers Ross




5gms of polyclar, so it's only 5g? :huh: I have used it twice and it works [thanks for the free sample  ] but I used 10g.
I overloaded the boat. :lol:


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## Pumpy (28/10/07)

I have some Poly clar got from CB 

Whats the best way to use it the fermentation is finished in another two days ??


Pumpy :unsure:


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## Hogan (28/10/07)

Pumpy said:


> I have some Poly clar got from CB
> 
> Whats the best way to use it the fermentation is finished in another two days ??
> Pumpy :unsure:




Check out Ross's speel on Polyclar Pump.

Cheers, Hoges.


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## Ross (28/10/07)

Pumpy said:


> I have some Poly clar got from CB
> 
> Whats the best way to use it the fermentation is finished in another two days ??
> Pumpy :unsure:




Pumpy,

You need to add to the beer when it's as cold as possible, I chill beer to 0c. For maximum viability rehydrate the polyclar in some water (half cup - I use boiled water as it has less oxygen) for 60 mins & keep it agitated (as in using a stirplate or swirling in a bottle). Then simply pour over surface of the beer & allow to settle through the beer overnight. If you have transfered your beer to say a keg & are in tending to filter, the polyclar can be stirred in & only needs 10 minutes contact time.

Cheers Ross


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## SJW (28/10/07)

I have started using Gelatine in the keg and now my beers are as bright as can be!


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## bindi (28/10/07)

SJW said:


> I have started using Gelatine in the keg and now my beers are as bright as can be!


 Ok, Bright As <_< any flavour loss for a bright beer?


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## Jye (28/10/07)

bindi said:


> Ok, Bright As <_< any flavour loss for a bright beer?



Nope, I use it in my APAs and wouldnt if it stripped any flavour.


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## fraser_john (29/10/07)

I almost always used to have haze problems, regardless of what brand of malt I used. The problem seems to have gotten a lot better since using a 5.2 buffer in my mash and a little extra in the sparge water.

That said, I have also taken to using Polyclar in the secondary two days before kegging, just chuck the secondary into the CC'ing fridge, then pour 1 cup of boiled water with polyclar mixed.

Last few beers have been brilliant with no apparent flavour loss.


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## SJW (30/10/07)

> Ok, Bright As any flavours loss for a bright beer?


Well I had drunk about 2 litres of this Amber Ale prior to adding the Gelatine. There was a big diff. Hard to say if there was any flavour loss though. It does taste a lot cleaner (maybe just mind over matter) and if u could taste the yeast or the haze material before its gone now. I did a side by side with JS Amber and even though I could taste that they were 2 different beers they both tasted good with there own individual profiles.
I will be using 5.2 in the mash and Gelatine in the keg as standard practice from now.
Dare I say it, its just like the NC method (and dont ask "whats NC") you wont know till u give it a go!

Steve


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (30/10/07)

Does gelatine do the same as Polycar? ie, can I add it to cold conditioning beer for 2 days prior to kegging?

C&B
TDA


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## Steve (30/10/07)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> Does gelatine do the same as Polycar? ie, can I add it to cold conditioning beer for 2 days prior to kegging?
> 
> C&B
> TDA




....and does gelatine only work on chill hazed beers (as Polyclar does)...or on any beer?

Cheers
Steve


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## Hargie (30/10/07)

...yeast haze is not the same as chill haze....

....gelatine is a yeast flocculant, it has the opposite electrical charge to yeast so they are attracted to each other and clump together .They then are too heavy to stay in suspension and fall to the bottom of your ferm. Polyphenol chill haze has the same electrical charge as gelatine so the gelatine has little effect on chill haze, so i'm told... 50c protein rests ( i do them everytime) + fully converted mashes + hard 90 min boils + relatively quick chilling are my answers to chill haze free beer...


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## Jye (30/10/07)

Gelatine works on removing yeast and as a side effect also strips chill haze, check out this PDF.

TDA you can add it to the chilled primary/secondary and rack off or add straight to the chilled beer when racking, then chuck the first pint as it will be full of yeast.


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## SJW (30/10/07)

> ....and does gelatine only work on chill hazed beers (as Polyclar does)...or on any beer?


I only say that in my case it was chill haze as I put a little in the microwave and once it got warm it was as clear as a bell.

Steve


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## Ross (30/10/07)

Jye said:


> Gelatine works on removing yeast and as a side effect also strips chill haze, check out this PDF.
> 
> TDA you can add it to the chilled primary/secondary and rack off or add straight to the chilled beer when racking, then chuck the first pint as it will be full of yeast.



I thought gelatine was just for yeast, but happy to be educated - I can only find isinglass in that attachment Jye, where does it mention Gelatine?

cheers Ross


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## Jye (30/10/07)

Ross said:


> I thought gelatine was just for yeast, but happy to be educated - I can only find isinglass in that attachment Jye, where does it mention Gelatine?
> 
> cheers Ross



Its my understanding that isinglass and gelatine work by the same process, but isinglass is a different and more refined product.


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## warrenlw63 (30/10/07)

Jye said:


> Its my understanding that isinglass and gelatine work by the same process, but isinglass is a different and more refined product.



I always thought that gelatine did the business too... This paragraph from the supplied document seems to contradict. :unsure: 

_The active ingredient in isinglass is the protein molecule
collagen. Collagen is a rigid, linear, triple helical
protein of molecular weight 360 kDa. As collagen
possesses a high degree of structural order, it is
temperature sensitive and is denatured at moderate
temperatures into gelatine which has little or no fining activity.
This has significant implications for the manufacture
and storage of isinglass finings. Isinglass finings
are prepared by dissolving the solid material in a dilute
food grade acid. Isinglass is also processed into powders
or pastes to obviate the need to store at low temperatures,
however isinglass solutions should always be stored at
temperatures below 20C and used within 8 weeks of
preparation._

Warren -


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## Batz (30/10/07)

Gelatine is made mainly from pigs,and I seem to remember it's their hooves?
You seen what pigs stand in?  





I have used gelatine in my kegs some years ago,and with exellent clearing results,I don't believe however it would remove chill haze.Best brew without chill haze at the start.

Batz


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## SJW (31/10/07)

> I have used gelatine in my kegs some years ago,and with exellent clearing results,I don't believe however it would remove chill haze.Best brew without chill haze at the start.
> 
> Batz



I dont understand either Batz, But from my test results, with hazy beer and a microwave, it would of appeared that I did suffer with chill haze and the Gelatine did clear it up. 
I guess there is a lot of things to do with Home Brewing that we just dont understand, Yet!.

Steve


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## randyrob (5/11/07)

Hey Guys,

well the dreaded chill haze has haunted my latest batch as well :-(

it came out very clear out of primary & once it has warmed up but definately has chill haze




the recipe was 65% Marris Otter, 30% Galaxy Malt & 5% Specialties.

Rob.

on my first 'chill haze' batch i was leaning towards it being the galaxy malt more than anything so was going to do a 40L batch with Marris Otter to rule that out but came out a bit short on base malt so had to chuck in Galaxy as the remainder so didn't rule out too much.

on both of these batches i've also used a hopback which i haven't used on prevoius batches so wondering if this could be part of the problem?

my next batch i'll have to sharpen up my act, use my nasa to get an extreme boil and skip out the hopback. if that doesn't help i'll have to stop using the shot-gun method
and start a proper process of elimination.

Rob 2.


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## randyrob (5/11/07)

Just some pics comparing it to my last batch, both with chill haze.


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## DaaB (5/11/07)

Just to confirm what has already been said, gelatine (like issinglass) is a positively charged fining and is attracted to the negatively charged yeast and pulls it out of suspension. To clear a chill haze you need a negatively charged fining or axillary fining to attach itself to the positively charged proteins. The two should be used in separate vessels or at the least each one should be allowed to work fully before adding the next otherwise they cancel each other out.
As I only use the one vessel for fermentation and often use gelatine or isinglass I prefer not to use Aux fining's and instead find a hard boil 10 mins or so past the hot break before adding the hops helps a lot (it can also cause the the filter I put over my hop strainer to block so its definately doing something), after that, to fully chill proof it a couple of weeks in the fridge while it's force carbonated works for me.

Good Isinglass used correctly works within a few days, sometimes in as little as 24hrs, gelatine a little longer. I suspect the beers that have apparently had the chill haze cleared using gelatine are actually being cleared by cold conditioning.

No mention of gelatine afaik but there's some interesting stuff here on finings http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/BrewingArticles/AllBright.htm


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## sathid (9/11/07)

randyrob said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> i've moved from Cannington to East Cannington but my brewing gear moved from Cannington To East Vic Park.


I live in/near east vic park, and the water here has a LOT of dissolved salts. You should see my kettle  

I have not used the tap water here for brewing yet.


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## Screwtop (9/11/07)

Made an English Bitter recently (Ross'recipe with a couple of tweaks) and used Windsor to give the fruity flavour profile I was after, low OG so no worries with the low AA% characteristics of this yeast finished at 14 AA% of 63.2% ABV of 3.25. Exactly what I wanted low ABV drinker with a ton of flavour, doesn't give away the fact that it's 3.25ABV.

When first kegged it went into CC for a week, first pour after carbonating was murky and tasted of the yeast, not the esters it produced, the beer tasted dull, could hardly taste the hops. Waited a few days and then added Gelatine to the keg on the advice of Jye and a few others on here. Within 36 hours the beer was pouring better, certainly changed the flavour for the better the beer did not taste like yeast, the beautiful fruity esters were now in there and the hop flavour was bright, the beer was not dull anymore. There was a little haze which went away once the beer reached about 12C so it had some chill haze. After a week in the keg this had gone alltogether, no amount of chilling/cold conditioning I know of will reduce chill haze, so I have to assume the Gelatine does the job long term. Have used Polyclar before and the result is very fast, about 24 hrs, faster if filtered. 

Screwy


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## Jye (9/11/07)

Great to hear Screwy  and I definitely know what you mean by a brighter hop flavour.

A quick question about haze produced by hops. In my experience it does not disappear when the beer is warmed like chill haze, has anyone else experienced the same?


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## browndog (9/11/07)

Yes Jye,
I've noticed on occasion when dry hopping that I end up with a haze that lasts to the last drop of the keg. Even adding polyclar before kegging does not fix the problem. I don't add my hops with a square mouth shovel like you but am known to use "metric handfulls" and I have been thinking that the dry hopping has been affecting my clarity.

cheers

Browndog


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## sathid (9/11/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> I always thought that gelatine did the business too... This paragraph from the supplied document seems to contradict. :unsure:
> 
> _The active ingredient in isinglass is the protein molecule
> collagen. Collagen is a rigid, linear, triple helical
> ...





> Isinglass finings are used extensively as a processing aid in the British brewing industry to accelerate the fining, or clarification, of beer. They are used particularly in the production of cask-conditioned beers, known as real ale, although there are a few cask ales available which are not fined using isinglass. The finings, a pure form of gelatin, flocculate the live yeast in the beer into a spongy mass, which settles to the bottom of the cask. Left to itself, beer will clear naturally; however, the use of isinglass finings accelerates the process. Isinglass is sometimes used with an auxiliary fining, which further accelerates the process of sedimentation.


It's from Wikipedia, so most certainly not infallible, but from my reading it seems both gelatine and isinglass areboth protiens similar to collagen.


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## Pumpy (10/11/07)

Ross said:


> Pumpy,
> 
> You need to add to the beer when it's as cold as possible, I chill beer to 0c. For maximum viability rehydrate the polyclar in some water (half cup - I use boiled water as it has less oxygen) for 60 mins & keep it agitated (as in using a stirplate or swirling in a bottle). Then simply pour over surface of the beer & allow to settle through the beer overnight. If you have transfered your beer to say a keg & are in tending to filter, the polyclar can be stirred in & only needs 10 minutes contact time.
> 
> Cheers Ross




Thanks Hoges & Ross

I am happy with the results of Polycar in my batch of Little Creatures bright ale it helps me in my aim to 'reduce the lead time' from fermenter via filter to keg system to get 'fresh beer' with the minimal time exposed to the air and ready for drinking.


Pumpy


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## Gnome (10/11/07)

I'm about to rip my hair out, I got haze in 2 different beers both had hard boils, added irish moss, pH was 5.2, chilled with cfc, and filtered prior to kegging (massive difference in clarity between in and out lines of the filter), now i gotta show up to my sisters wedding with hazy beer!


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## Pumpy (10/11/07)

Gnome said:


> I'm about to rip my hair out, I got haze in 2 different beers both had hard boils, added irish moss, pH was 5.2, chilled with cfc, and filtered prior to kegging (massive difference in clarity between in and out lines of the filter), now i gotta show up to my sisters wedding with hazy beer!



Gnome , you supplying the whole wedding guests with beer !!!!!!.

Give them the clearest keg first 
After then they wont know what they are drinking put the hazy ones on .

PUMPY


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## Ross (10/11/07)

Gnome said:


> I'm about to rip my hair out, I got haze in 2 different beers both had hard boils, added irish moss, pH was 5.2, chilled with cfc, and filtered prior to kegging (massive difference in clarity between in and out lines of the filter), now i gotta show up to my sisters wedding with hazy beer!



Gnome,

Check if it's chill haze, by warming a little - If it clears it's chill haze. If yhis is the case & you have a filter, simply chill the beer as cold as possible (0c is good) add polyclar, wait 10 mins & then filter into a fresh keg. All should then be sweet.

Cheers Ross


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## randyrob (26/11/07)

Hey Guys,

just an update, i gave gelatine a whirl in one of my culprit kegs and after a week it was cystal clear without any apparent flavour loss
so if anyone wants to go down that track the stuff works. but for me i don't think i'll bother with it down the track.

Cheers Rob.


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## Back Yard Brewer (28/11/07)

Ross said:


> Tony,
> 
> You use kettle finings don't you?? Polyclar is basically a post ferment fining & it provides a very good fix for haze issues, I personally have no issues using it against any other finings. I wouldn't call it a chemical or an additive, as it's an inert plastic, that drops completely out your beer. Preferable in my book to adding acids etc to your mash, which are chemicals & additives. B)
> 
> Cheers Ross



Was wondering if you or anyone else has ever used KHT (cream of tartar) I was actually talking to the boss at work today about chill haze. Most white wines are consumed cold which means they need to be cold stable. To prevent them becoming hazy we add KHT and chill to around -2c. This apparently takes certain unwanted properties out of the wine. Would this not be the same case with beer??

BYB


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