# Aussie Schooner Tips British Pint!



## AussieJosh (9/1/11)

*Aussie schooner tips British pint*
Since its introduction by an act of Parliament in 1698, the British pint has been an institution the world over. But after legislation this week, the pint's facing pressure from the land down under as the Aussie schooner is introduced across the UK.

Presently pommy pubs and restaurants are limited to pouring government regulated measures, such as 'halves' and pints. But Britons will now have the option of ordering an Aussie schooner, which is roughly two-thirds of a pint (depending on where 'ya from, mate more on that later).

According to a statement by MP David Willetts: "We have listened to consumers and businesses. They have called for fixed quantities to be kept but with greater flexibility. That is what this change will deliver."

He goes on to say, "We are freeing businesses so they can innovate and create new products to meet the demands of their customers."

Another great Aussie export we can be proud of! But what, exactly, _is_ an Australian schooner? Well, depends where your local's located.

According to the *Lonely Planet Guide to Australian Language and Culture*, a schooner is 15 ounces, except in South Australia where it's 9 or 10, depending on who you talk to. Even more confusingly, that *SA schooner* will be called a *middy* in *NSW* and *WA*, a *handle* in the *NT*, and a *pot* in *Victoria* and *Queensland*. A Canadian website (www.sceneandheard.ca) has gone so far as producing a handy chart for thirsty travellers (below).

Seems to me until we standardise pours nationwide like our whinging mates from upstairs, you're best off ordering "what that bloke's having" when you travel in Oz!




*Do you think we should standardise our drinks and have a national pour?*


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## AussieJosh (9/1/11)

The Link.....
http://travel.ninemsn.com.au/blog.aspx?blo...owcomments=true


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## peas_and_corn (9/1/11)

Pff. We should have metric measurements, I've seen most of these overseas.

1.5L jug
1L carafe
1/2L glass
1/4L glass
200mL as well perhaps.


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## lanerigg (10/1/11)

Do we really need to alter? I mean Pints for lads, 1/2's for the lass'es. I dont think many pubs have schooner glasses now.
Slightly off topic but, I understand the need to standardise the wine measure in the uk as the older measure uesd 125ml but most pubs where using 175ml and 250ml. Mind most pubs i worked in/managaed i know the 250ml was by far what most people wanted.


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## Acasta (10/1/11)

peas_and_corn said:


> Pff. We should have metric measurements, I've seen most of these overseas.
> 
> 1.5L jug
> 1L carafe
> ...



Careful! its been suggested before. people don't like change.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=46390


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## DanRayner (10/1/11)

I had read the the measure that the Brits are proposing to introduce (what they're calling the "Aussie schooner") is 400mL - which, if served as a schooner in any NSW pub would start a riot.

Even though the Lonely Planet is usually written by Aussies I'm not sure they really know what they are talking about...

Many of these measures come from imperial fuid ounces

An Aussie schooner (unless you're in Adelaide where they call it a pint) is 425mL or approximately 14 ounces (or 15 ounces if you are ready to believe Wikipedia even though 425mL converts 14.3 fluid ounces)

A British/NSW/ACT pint is 565mL/568mL/570mL depending on the base of the glass you are drinking from (or 20 ounces).

An American pint is around 473mL or 16 ounces - which I think is why Grolsch bottles were once 475mL and I guess why it was a fairly easy shift for Europe to switch to 500mL beer glasses, especially in Germany) 

That annoying "Schmiddy" halfway between a middy and a schooner but at schooner prices is usually about 355mL or 12 ounces (also the standard volume for American bottles of that size)

An Aussie middy/pot/British half/Adelaide Schooner is 285mL (10 ounces)

And in some regional backward-thinking backwaters they have "sevens" so called cos they are 7 ounce glasses - about the equivalent volume of a spirits tumbler and a pointless waste of time for drinking beer out of. And I believe a "pony" is 5 ounces - why bother?

Also - in the US some bars serve "twenty twos" gawd bless 'em! How cool is 22 ounces of Russian River Ruination? Bring on 22 ounces of Stone Double Dead Guy Ale - sweeeeeet!

I don't think this will change much in the UK - the British Gov is relaxing UK laws and allowing other sizes to be served as well as pints and halves so that people have more choice in terms of how much they will drink in one sitting but I think most punters will still expect the option to buy pints.


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## Josh (10/1/11)

lanerigg said:


> Do we really need to alter? I mean Pints for lads, 1/2's for the lass'es. I dont think many pubs have schooner glasses now.



>97% of pubs in Sydney/NSW do.


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## schooey (10/1/11)

You will never kill the schooner; go the schooey!

Schmiddy glasses were introduced so the yuppies could get their 330 ml bottles of green bottle lager all in a glass in one pour


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## thelastspud (10/1/11)

Over here you order a caa(glass of beer) and you never know what you're going to get normally around 200ml but could be as much as 350-400ml. it is nice to know what you're getting.


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## Scruffy (10/1/11)

Just sell the liquid by the milliliter. Then folk can provide their own vessels.
A vase of weisse please...

Disclaimer - i don't like lager, I drink 565ml measure, i call them pints. But I can see a schooner makes much more sense in 40C ...


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## MarkBastard (10/1/11)

This is annoying. It annoys me that pints aren't more available in Australia.

But yeah I'd love to go metric. I reckon if we did we should have litre, half litre, third litre and quarter litre.

Half litre being to replace pints, third litre being like a schmiddy and at 333ml being the equivalent of most of the newer stubbies. A quarter litre can be for the poofs and old men that drink 'middies' or pots at the moment.

And god damn it why does south australia have to embarrass us all the time? Calling a pot a schooner and a schooner a pint because they can't handle a big glass of beer. Bunch of backwards god fearing nancies!!!


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## Pennywise (10/1/11)

lanerigg said:


> Do we really need to alter? I mean Pints for lads, 1/2's for the lass'es. I dont think many pubs have schooner glasses now.



Try serving my missus a schooner or a 1/2 :lol: 



Josh said:


> >97% of pubs in Sydney/NSW do.



Yep, funny cause every time I go up there to visit the fam we'll go out for a beer and some one always says to me, "Bit small ya hey?" cause I've downed it in like 3 sips.



Still like me shcooners though, at home mostly, because I don't serve my beers at -1 degree they tend to get a little too warm sometimes if I pour pints. There's a place for every glass in my bar. Oh except for midi's


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## Effect (10/1/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> This is annoying. It annoys me that pints aren't more available in Australia.
> 
> But yeah I'd love to go metric. I reckon if we did we should have litre, half litre, third litre and quarter litre.
> 
> ...



Come on, we aren't that bad...come visit us some time, I'll shout you a pint and even pay for the barrel for you to go home in.


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## eamonnfoley (10/1/11)

I like the UK system, you always know what you are getting - by law. And a half is half the price of a pint. So you really have an option. Rather than a middie or pot costing 75% the price of a pint. Talk about encouraging binge drinking!


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## MarkBastard (10/1/11)

foles said:


> I like the UK system, you always know what you are getting - by law. And a half is half the price of a pint. So you really have an option. Rather than a middie or pot costing 75% the price of a pint. Talk about encouraging binge drinking!



Is that really how it works? If so that is awesome and I'd love for it to be brought over here.


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## Pollux (10/1/11)

DanRayner said:


> And in some regional backward-thinking backwaters they have "sevens" so called cos they are 7 ounce glasses - about the equivalent volume of a spirits tumbler and a pointless waste of time for drinking beer out of. And I believe a "pony" is 5 ounces - why bother?




Also known as "the publicans pony", it stayed in use in regional areas as it allowed the person behind the bar to have a drink without getting too smashed. We used to have a pony or two over the course of every shift when I worked in pubs.

I'd love for all pubs to drop schooners and just have pints and halves. Can't remember the last time I ordered a schooner if the pint option was available...


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## DanRayner (10/1/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Is that really how it works? If so that is awesome and I'd love for it to be brought over here.



True - it's not legislated but it's been a big issue in the past for CAMRA and they've successfully kept the pressure on pubs to keep half-pints half the price of full-pints



Pollux said:


> Also known as "the publicans pony", it stayed in use in regional areas as it allowed the person behind the bar to have a drink without getting too smashed. We used to have a pony or two over the course of every shift when I worked in pubs.
> 
> I'd love for all pubs to drop schooners and just have pints and halves. Can't remember the last time I ordered a schooner if the pint option was available...



Never had that tradition in Canberra bars/pubs and so when I worked the bar we'd just drink a few of "the publican's pints" over the course of a shift


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## Kai (10/1/11)

Phillip said:


> Come on, we aren't that bad...come visit us some time, I'll shout you a pint and even pay for the barrel for you to go home in.




Now that's Croweater generosity at its finest!

From what I remember most pubs in SA often have an 'imperial pint' option as well as a 'pint'. After living in WA and Vic for a few years I do miss the 425mL option.


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## Filby (10/1/11)

The SA 'Pint' is 425ml because it was to allow for a standard bottle (375ml) to be poured into it and allow for head, or so Ive heard. Why the hell they called it a pint is beyond me...probably because it was the larger of the two glasses. Also, there's not many pubs in Adelaide that don't have a proper pint available.


Fil


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## mika (10/1/11)

Middy's in WA are bigger than 'Pots' in Victoria, I swear. I thought the Victorian 'Pot' was under 300mL ?


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## MarkBastard (10/1/11)

mika said:


> Middy's in WA are bigger than 'Pots' in Victoria, I swear. I thought the Victorian 'Pot' was under 300mL ?



They are.

I always thought whether it was called a pot or a midi, it's a half pint, at least pretty close to it. 285ml?


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## eamonnfoley (10/1/11)

correct - middie, pot, half pint are all the same - 285ml


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## AussieJosh (10/1/11)

I agree Adelaide pints are gay! But we do have a bunch Irish and English pubs that serve the Imperial pint = 568.261485 milliliters, Still i dont understand why most of our pubs serve them little "Pints"!?
I blame Mike Rann!


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## philw (10/1/11)

AussieJosh said:


> I agree Adelaide pints are gay! But we do have a bunch Irish and English pubs that serve the Imperial pint = 568.261485 milliliters, Still i dont understand why most of our pubs serve them little "Pints"!?
> I blame Mike Rann!




+1 :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (11/1/11)

Blind nationalistic pride aside I have no desire to see smaller amounts of beer replace larger amounts of beer.

Pint please.


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## Hatchy (11/1/11)

I've lived in Adelaide my whole life & love it here but really can't understand why a pint can't be a pint here.

If we're going to be douchebags with weights & measures we should have Adelaide metres that are actually 810cm & if you want an actual metre you have to ask for a "metric metre".

Part of me dies every time I here someone say imperial pint. A pint is a ******* imperial measure, what other sort of pint is there.

From this day I will never again ask for a pint at an Adelaide bar. I'll ask for 425ml of beer & I'll get 425ml of beer. If I'm at a pub that has pints I'll have a pint though.

This rant could go on for hours but I'll stop now.


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## Florian (11/1/11)

DanRayner said:


> True - it's not legislated but it's been a big issue in the past for CAMRA and they've successfully kept the pressure on pubs to keep half-pints half the price of full-pints



That's how I remember it as well, all pubs sell half pints for half the price of a pint, which is great as you can just order a half if you feel like, without worrying what's most economical, and then order another half if you decide to stay.

Whereas in Germany most places sell 'a small one' (ein kleines, 300ml) or 'a large one' (ein grosses, 500ml), some places even sell 400ml but don't call it 'a medium one' but just '04' instead.
Obviously there are regional variations, in Cologne and Duesseldorf the standard for a koelsch or alt is 200ml, and Around Munich you get the Steins.
Bottles are always 330ml or 500ml, everywhere, no variations.

Pricewise it's often, but not always, better to order a large one, and often it's cheaper to order beer than water. There is a law that is supposed to prevent this, but reality is still far from it.

As for Australia, I'd say stick to the pints, the price would stay the same if they get substituted with 500ml euro measurements anyway, might as well take the extra 65ml.


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## peted27 (11/1/11)

i cry when i cant get a pint. schooners gone by the time you join the back of the line at the bar


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## roo_dr (11/1/11)

Luckily I have a few good pubs nearby that sell beer in "proper" pints.

But having been born and bred in the UK, where beer is served as standard in these measures, I'd like to note that tap beer over here is generally 1-1.5% stronger than the UK. Maybe the smaller measures aren't such a bad thing...


Edit: that said, on the last visit I did notice the increase in "continental lager" - e.g. Stella 5.2% / Carlsberg 5% abv - muscling in where Fosters and Carling, both 4% abv, would normally have been the "premium" offering. Maybe that explains their need for a continental sized glass.


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## thelastspud (11/1/11)

roo_dr said:


> Edit: that said, on the last visit I did notice the increase in "continental lager" - e.g. Stella 5.2% / Carlsberg 5% abv - muscling in where Fosters and Carling, both 4% abv, would normally have been the "premium" offering. Maybe that explains their need for a continental sized glass.



When i last worked at a pub in the UK the stella on draft was only 5 % and 5.2 in the bottles. don't ask me why?


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## Effect (11/1/11)

To be honest, there isn't any beer from a typical pub that I would actually want to have a full pint of (barring CPA and CSA). The pub that I frequent, however doesn't serve pints, but rather fancies and butchers. Thank God I don't have to ask for a fancy of x or a fancy or y. Just 'can I have a nogne o ipa thanks'.


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## Goofinder (11/1/11)

Hatchy said:


> If we're going to be douchebags with weights & measures we should have Adelaide metres that are actually 810cm & if you want an actual metre you have to ask for a "metric metre".


You mean like an SA barrel vs a UK beer barrel?

I reckon 425mL is about the perfect size glass for me. I have no idea how they get away with calling it a pint in SA though.


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## Zizzle (11/1/11)

DanRayner said:


> Also - in the US some bars serve "twenty twos" gawd bless 'em! How cool is 22 ounces of Russian River Ruination? Bring on 22 ounces of Stone Double Dead Guy Ale - sweeeeeet!



Our local airport (Albuquerque) has a bar that we like to visit before flights out. They usually have the Santa Fe brewing "Happy Camper" IPA on tap. We always seem to forget that they serve 22 ounces by default. So we usually end up having to neck 22oz of 6.6% IPA to make our flight in time. SWMBO usually can't do it. But I can't leave a good craft beer behind so help her out.

By the time we make the gate we really are happy campers.

The inbound flight ritual is to go from the airport straight up I-25 to Chama brewery for a couple before the 2 hour drive home.

But really, why did an airport bar get the genius idea of serving 22 ounce beers?


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## DanRayner (11/1/11)

Florian said:


> Whereas in Germany most places sell 'a small one' (ein kleines, 300ml) or 'a large one' (ein grosses, 500ml), some places even sell 400ml but don't call it 'a medium one' but just '04' instead.
> Obviously there are regional variations, in Cologne and Duesseldorf the standard for a koelsch or alt is 200ml, and Around Munich you get the Steins.
> Bottles are always 330ml or 500ml, everywhere, no variations.



Or in Bavaria where you can order "ein Ma" which is a litre glass! And translated it means "one measure" HA! I'll drink nothing smaller than one full measure please!




Bradley said:


> When i last worked at a pub in the UK the stella on draft was only 5 % and 5.2 in the bottles. don't ask me why?



Could be where they were each brewed; kegged "continental" lagers in the UK are usually BUL in the UK, whereas the bottles might actually have been brewed on the continent. Alternatively, many British real ales have cask strengths that differ from bottle strength - and I'm not entirely sure why, priming sugar?



Zizzle said:


> But really, why did an airport bar get the genius idea of serving 22 ounce beers?



I love it! That is so cool...


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## AussieJosh (11/1/11)

Hatchy said:


> I've lived in Adelaide my whole life & love it here but really can't understand why a pint can't be a pint here.
> 
> If we're going to be douchebags with weights & measures we should have Adelaide metres that are actually 810cm & if you want an actual metre you have to ask for a "metric metre".
> 
> ...



Agreed! But i think you would get a very strange look from most people working behind a Adelaide bar if you asked for a 425ml beer. good chance they would not even know what your talking about? or reply..."a pint!?"

And ive always wanted to know why a 375ml coopers fits nearly perfectly inside a 425ml glass!?


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## MarkBastard (11/1/11)

AussieJosh said:


> Agreed! But i think you would get a very strange look from most people working behind a Adelaide bar if you asked for a 425ml beer. good chance they would not even know what your talking about? or reply..."a pint!?"
> 
> And ive always wanted to know why a 375ml coopers fits nearly perfectly inside a 425ml glass!?



I think the glasses are 425ml if holding water right to the top.

For beer you have at least 1cm of head which probably takes it down to under 400ml of beer if you let the beer go flat and then measured it.

So if you pour a 375ml stubbie and get some head from your pour it's going to go near the top.


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## michael_aussie (11/1/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> A quarter litre can be for the poofs and old men that drink 'middies' or pots at the moment.


lol tff



Hatchy said:


> If we're going to be douchebags with weights & measures we should have Adelaide metres that are actually 810cm & if you want an actual metre you have to ask for a "metric metre".
> 
> Part of me dies every time I here someone say imperial pint. A pint is a ******* imperial measure, what other sort of pint is there.
> 
> ...


lol .. you have an anger problem I think....

We can't beat the poms in cricket, but our insane mix of glass sizes beats a good ol'pint??? what is the world coming to???


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## Infinitee (11/1/11)

*Hobbit eyes open widely*
You mean they come in pints?!

They could serve half jam jars for all I care,
But I wish they'd have their price and product regulated.

$4.50 for a flat Old is why I drink at home.
My german pint mug is mostly for show - beer goes warm and flat too fast in the buggers.

I've often wondered if 'relatively' cheaper nips and more expensive schooners/pints would regulate drinkers somewhat
Eh, I sneak a PET tallie in and refill my glass in the loo anyhow - quality control.


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## Kai (11/1/11)

Florian said:


> That's how I remember it as well, all pubs sell half pints for half the price of a pint, which is great as you can just order a half if you feel like, without worrying what's most economical, and then order another half if you decide to stay.



I say it's bollocks and CAMRA are a bunch of wieners. Half pints effectively take twice the effort to pour, serve and wash so any pub should be allowed to charge more for them.

I do understand where CAMRA are coming from, but they are still a bunch of wieners.


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## Hatchy (12/1/11)

AussieJosh said:


> Agreed! But i think you would get a very strange look from most people working behind a Adelaide bar if you asked for a 425ml beer. good chance they would not even know what your talking about? or reply..."a pint!?"
> 
> And ive always wanted to know why a 375ml coopers fits nearly perfectly inside a 425ml glass!?



I mainly only drink at Brewboys or the Wheaty if I go to a bar. Brewboys would appreciate the pedantry of asking for 425mL & I can order beer in a fancy at the Wheaty. Yr right though, most bartenders would give me a funny look.


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## mje1980 (12/1/11)

Kai said:


> I say it's bollocks and CAMRA are a bunch of wieners. *Half pints effectively take twice the effort to pour, serve and wash *so any pub should be allowed to charge more for them.
> 
> I do understand where CAMRA are coming from, but they are still a bunch of wieners.




How exactly does it take twice the effort to pour,serve, and wash? I can't wait to find out.


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## Pollux (12/1/11)

Easy, to pour the same amount of beer you are forced to wash two glasses, then pour the beer into two glasses, then serve those two glasses......

By my calculations, that's twice as many glasses as it takes to serve the same volume of beer in a pint yeah????


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## mje1980 (12/1/11)

Drawing a very long bow there, unless the pub washed glasses one at a time, which i doubt is the case.


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## Pollux (12/1/11)

They may not, but they do wash racks at a time. 

If I can remember correctly, a rack holds 20 schooners or 24 middies (it may be 24 and 28 respectively). Over the course of a busy night, this adds up. Throw in the cost of having to have multiple glass sizes, shelves on which to store them (or in some pubs, glass fridges). 

Consider it similar to buying grain, naturally it's cheaper to purchase by the sack instead of by the kilo.....


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## drew9242 (12/1/11)

It is the same with everything you buy. If you buy in bulk they sell it cheaper because it is less work to sell the same amount. So they don't have to make as much per portion.

Well over here in albany i only know of a pint(568mm) and a middie(285mm), have seen a schooner(425mm) in some places but you can always get a pint aswell.


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## DanRayner (12/1/11)

mje1980 said:


> How exactly does it take twice the effort to pour,serve, and wash? I can't wait to find out.



It really doesn't.



Pollux said:


> Easy, to pour the same amount of beer you are forced to wash two glasses, then pour the beer into two glasses, then serve those two glasses......
> 
> By my calculations, that's twice as many glasses as it takes to serve the same volume of beer in a pint yeah????



Twice as many but half the size.

Having worked in many pubs over the last twenty years it takes bugger-all time to wash any glasses *regardless of size*. You rack them up, whack them in the glass washer and pull them out - takes less than a couple of minutes and most of that time is the operation of the glass washer leaving you plenty of time to do other things, like rack up more glass racks or serve half-pint glasses to customers.

Half-pints are smaller glasses than pint glasses. They take up less room on a glass-rack than a pint glass. You can fit more of them on a glass rack. They cost significantly less to buy. They come in boxes with twice as many glasses in them as boxes of pint glasses and do not take up significantly more room in a bar. They tend to smash less often when dropped than pint glasses and so on-going costs tend to be less. Surprisingly, it takes about half the time to fill a half-pint ( :blink: ) than it does to fill a pint. When you collect them from tables they are as easy to stack and you can carry more of them. People don't tend to order them as much as pints (at least in the pubs I've worked in, in Canberra) and so it isn't really that much extra effort at all.

It has never made sense why we charge more than half the cost of a pint for a half-pint - other than for the reason that the publican can and does. If staff/publicans whine and use the "oh, deary me, it takes so much more effort to serve two half -pints than it does to serve one pint" my only answer to that is HTFU 



Drew9242 said:


> It is the same with everything you buy. If you buy in bulk they sell it cheaper because it is less work to sell the same amount. So they don't have to make as much per portion.



Economies of scale are one thing but when you buy a pint you are hardly buying "bulk quantities".

And why penalise someone for drinking responsibly?

end of rant


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## Shed101 (12/1/11)

Florian said:


> That's how I remember it as well, all pubs sell half pints for half the price of a pint, which is great as you can just order a half if you feel like, without worrying what's most economical, and then order another half if you decide to stay.



Good point. Except in England you should always drink a pint - not just for fear of being laughed at - but when you get to the (annoyingly early) closing time you take your two-thirds empty pint glass to the bar and ask for 'a top up,' which means fill it up and charge me for a half, which they invariably do :icon_cheers: 



Florian said:


> As for Australia, I'd say stick to the pints, the price would stay the same if they get substituted with 500ml euro measurements anyway, might as well take the extra 65ml.



Even better point! Especially when most bar staff in this country seem to think the big frothy head is part of the drink. Again, in England you ask for a full glass and they're obliged to fill it with beer to the top.

I knew a landlord in Hobart who told me he hated selling pints of Moo Brew Dark Ale because he made more money selling the schooners. Higher percentage mark up.


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## drew9242 (12/1/11)

DanRayner said:


> Economies of scale are one thing but when you buy a pint you are hardly buying "bulk quantities".
> 
> And why penalise someone for drinking responsibly?
> 
> end of rant



Fair point it is not bulk. I was more talking about going into a supermarket. When you got to get a packet of weetbix half the size as the other one, you won't pay half the price. Why? They would cost the same to make proably cost the same to package, yet the bigger one is less the half the price of the small one. It just the way it goes.

PS: I havn't worked in a Pub but is it really the same amount of work. If some drank 4 pints in a night they would only pay 4 times and served 4 times. However if they had 8 Middies they would be pay 8 times and served 8 times. Just can't see ho it would be the same ammount of work.


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## DanRayner (12/1/11)

Drew9242 said:


> Fair point it is not bulk. I was more talking about going into a supermarket. When you got to get a packet of weetbix half the size as the other one, you won't pay half the price. Why? They would cost the same to make proably cost the same to package, yet the bigger one is less the half the price of the small one. It just the way it goes.



Yes, but regarding beer in the UK it just _isn't_ the way it goes and I like that 



Drew9242 said:


> PS: I havn't worked in a Pub but is it really the same amount of work. If some drank 4 pints in a night they would only pay 4 times and served 4 times. However if they had 8 Middies they would be pay 8 times and served 8 times. Just can't see ho it would be the same ammount of work.



Hmm... I can see how you might think that and I am not suggesting that you are wrong exactly (because obviously there is a _little bit _more work involved in pouring two halves) but it takes a good bartender literally a few seconds to snatch up a glass, start pouring the beer, ask the customer for the money needed to pay for the beer, finish pouring put the glass on the counter, take the money and return them change.

They can also be pouring several beers at once if they are really good and may even be serving more than one customer at once (OK - now we're talking super fast nightclub bartender rather than the lackadaisical regional pub bartender). It's only in rare cases that the bar is so packed with people that the same too-funky-for-you, Flock-Of-Seagulls-haircut bartender (who maybe fast, conscientious and customer-oriented when serving) doesn't then go back to sitting on his hands chatting up the hot waitress and otherwise doing nothing. The publican is paying for them to be there; they may as well be pouring twice as many glasses. 

Even if the bar is full of people, the publican is not going to lose money because of the fraction of a moment longer that it takes this person to serve half-pints - the customers might wait a few seconds longer to be served but they're hardly going to turn around and walk out and business is hardly going to run full-tilt to the end of service such that, if they were only serving half-pints, they ran out of time to pour enough glasses to meet the punter-demand. There are always going to be lulls between peaks in service and those lulls might be a couple of minutes shorter if there are more halves being poured. It's just not a real cost that needs to be passed on to the customer.


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## mwd (12/1/11)

Shed101 said:


> Good point. Except in England you should always drink a pint - not just for fear of being laughed at - but when you get to the (annoyingly early) closing time you take your two-thirds empty pint glass to the bar and ask for 'a top up,' which means fill it up and charge me for a half, which they invariably do :icon_cheers:


 It is a long time since you were there licensing laws have changed a bit regarding opening times and the only time you are likely to get a big top up is if they have the hand pump and non metered electric pumps.

Yeah we used to do that all the time when young and skint when they called "Last Orders" but they got smart and filled a half pint glass and poured it into the pint. Still really hate those heavy dimple pint pots love the tulip or tapered straight sided pint glasses.


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## Pollux (12/1/11)

I can remember my pub days.....

I utterly hated the people who drank middies, but drank beer at the same rate (litres/hour) as the schooner drinkers.....For every 2 schooners their mate had, they would have 3 middies.........WHY??????

I look at it as being a case of there is a 50c charge for the glass regardless of size, then a price per oz of beer (lets say 20c per oz)....

A middie would then cost $2.50, while a schooner would cost $3.50........


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## raven19 (12/1/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> And god damn it why does south australia have to embarrass us all the time? Calling a pot a schooner and a schooner a pint because they can't handle a big glass of beer. Bunch of backwards god fearing nancies!!!



Eachoing many sentiments on this thread from fellow SA Brewers, I have no issues going metric also, or as a minimum at least having properly measured pints in SA.

:icon_offtopic: Surely its all the Yanks fault for not moving with the rest of the world to the metric system. i.e. Mash in at 155F? wtf is that :blink: :lol:


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## Shed101 (12/1/11)

Tropical_Brews said:


> It is a long time since you were there licensing laws have changed a bit regarding opening times and the only time you are likely to get a big top up is if they have the hand pump and non metered electric pumps.
> 
> Yeah we used to do that all the time when young and skint when they called "Last Orders" but they got smart and filled a half pint glass and poured it into the pint. Still really hate those heavy dimple pint pots love the tulip or tapered straight sided pint glasses.



Three and a half years. The licensing laws may have changed, but my old locals didn't stay open any later 'cos people don't want to stay any later.

Of course you only get big top ups with hand pumps in decent friendly pubs ... (I only ever drank beer from hand pump / gravity) 

Not many places used the dimple pots any more I thought ... partly cos they're lethal weapons.


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## DanRayner (12/1/11)

Shed101 said:


> Even better point! Especially when most bar staff in this country seem to think the big frothy head is part of the drink. Again, in England you ask for a full glass and they're obliged to fill it with beer to the top.



The bartenders are obliged to fill pint glasses to the top when there is only a Crown stamp (or, more recently, the EU "CE" stamp) which is a full 570mL pint - commonly there are other pint glasses in the UK that have this crown mark as well as a "Pint To Line" line indicating where a pint is measured to - this means if the beer isn't particularly foamy you might only get a 95%-filled glass. Most bartenders will fill passed this but they're not obliged to. 

It's also the difference between the British ale culture and the more ubiquitous lager culture that, of course, has it's roots in German/Czech beers - you'd be lucky to get less than three fingers worth of head in a German beer - and yet the CE stamp on these glasses is about three fingers down from the top of the glass so you do get the amount of beer you paid for.



Shed101 said:


> I knew a landlord in Hobart who told me he hated selling pints of Moo Brew Dark Ale because he made more money selling the schooners. Higher percentage mark up.



That is the best arguement yet for the difference between the prices of pints and halves (or schooners). This publican clearly knows it doesn't cost much at all to be serving beers in smaller glasses and he makes not only a better margin but also a better net profit form serving in smaller vessels.

edit: forgot to add the line about the "pint to line" glasses


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## DanRayner (12/1/11)

Tropical_Brews said:


> Still really hate those heavy dimple pint pots love the tulip or tapered straight sided pint glasses.



I love the straight-sided pints in the UK

(even ones even less tapered than this fine-looking glass)










oh and here's one with the pint/crown/CE mark


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## peas_and_corn (12/1/11)

Eh, the problem is that a lot of them look like cordial glasses. Love the dimpled mugs myself, got a bunch of 'em in the brew room. Also nonics are awesome. I am quite partial to the tulip and teardrop shaped glasses for analysis.


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## michael_aussie (13/1/11)

Pollux said:


> Easy, to pour the same amount of beer you are forced to wash two glasses, then pour the beer into two glasses, then serve those two glasses......
> 
> By my calculations, that's twice as many glasses as it takes to serve the same volume of beer in a pint yeah????


+1



Drew9242 said:


> It is the same with everything you buy. If you buy in bulk they sell it cheaper because it is less work to sell the same amount. So they don't have to make as much per portion.


+1



Pollux said:


> I look at it as being a case of there is a 50c charge for the glass regardless of size, then a price per oz of beer (lets say 20c per oz)....
> 
> A middie would then cost $2.50, while a schooner would cost $3.50........


+1

As pointed out, economies of scale exist for all products sold.
Compare the price of a single stubbie, to a 1/2 dozen, to a full slab.

Anyone who thinks that they should be able to buy 1/2 as much for 1/2 as much has their head in the sand.


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## wedge (13/1/11)

I know this is a bit again the religion here but...... surely these guys need to make a dime. I give you the pokies in SA, (which are a [email protected]'n cancer :angry. are the only reason many of the pubs are still in business. Really whats an extra buck if your only drinking in schooners in stead of pints. In SA if you collect and recycle 10 coke cans you make this buck back!

Its sad really one of my uncles use to invest in pubs it was his thing and he would be up front and say that the profit that made pubs feasible was the pokies. There is no money in beer like there was 20 yrs ago when everyone would go for a quick one on the way home. 


mmmmmmmm I stop ranting now.


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## Amin (14/1/11)

wedge said:


> Its sad really one of my uncles use to invest in pubs it was his thing and he would be up front and say that the profit that made pubs feasible was the pokies. There is no money in beer like there was 20 yrs ago when everyone would go for a quick one on the way home.


Is there a reason why the price of a beer in pubs has increased at a greater rate than the cost of buying a beer from a bottleshop, I'm only 20 but I'm told it use to be about the same price ?

I know I've the price of a jug of coopers sparkling ale go up from $15 to $19 at the Exeter in Adelaide over the last 4 years.

EDIT: Cost aside I prefer drinking from a smaller glass than a big one


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## DanRayner (14/1/11)

wedge said:


> I know this is a bit again the religion here but...... surely these guys need to make a dime.



Fine with me. If the publican is losing so much money on a pint why not, at the next price increase, make the price of a pint a bit more then? Bammo! Make money on pints and a half-pint is half the price of a full pint; everybody's happy. I bet that's what happened in the pubs across England when CAMRA got their way.



Amin said:


> Is there a reason why the price of a beer in pubs has increased at a greater rate than the cost of buying a beer from a bottleshop, I'm only 20 but I'm told it use to be about the same price ?
> 
> I know I've the price of a jug of coopers sparkling ale go up from $15 to $19 at the Exeter in Adelaide over the last 4 years.
> 
> EDIT: Cost aside I prefer drinking from a smaller glass than a big one



I don't recall a bottle of beer in a pub ever costing the same as a bottle in a bottle shop. A middy/schooner will cost less in a pub than a bottle in a pub cos the rate of excise is dramatically less on 50L kegs than on bottles. 

But a liquor store does not have to have anywhere near the same on-going costs as a pub compared with the turnover of stock in each venue. Liquor stores generally have less staff on compared with the volume of liquor sold. Liquor stores can (might not, but can) have less floor space which should = less rent. The liquor store doesn't have to get a cleaner in at the end of every shift like a busy pub will.

I'm in my thirties and, in the cities I've lived in, a beer from a bottleshop has always been cheaper than in a pub.

Bu in terms of general increases in pub drinks in the last 5 yrs or so - that might have something to do with constant changes in industrial relations laws - staff at some of the pubs I worked in were paid under the table at one point, then after WorkChoices, they were all paid under a collective agreement (which wasn't so much of an agreement, more, the publican telling 18yr old staff what they would earn and encouraged to "sign here" or maybe not get any more shifts) and then with the scrapping of WorkChoices pay rates changed again - I can't imagine that for each of these situations staff costs consistantly went down.

Liquor licencing laws keep changing here in Canberra - that might also have increased prices? Dunno...


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## Bribie G (14/1/11)

Scruffy said:


> Just sell the liquid by the milliliter. Then folk can provide their own vessels.
> A vase of weisse please...
> 
> Disclaimer - i don't like lager, I drink 565ml measure, i call them pints. But I can see a schooner makes much more sense in 40C ...



Scruffy, glad to see you are alive and kicking, I was worried they'd deported you  - how'd you wash up in the floods?

When I first arrived in QLD in the late 70s the standard drink was a seven ounce glass (33 cents ) followed by a ten ounce (42 cents). I couldn't believe the sevens, the second day in Oz, in Bundaberg actually at 29 degrees, I went out to have a counter lunch which was a huge novelty as there was little or no pub food in the UK at the time. 

I said "what's the biggest beer size you can get?" ... Jug, sweetie. 

So I had two jugs with lunch, being used to pints of 4.0 % ABV the 5% Fourex hit me like a ton of bricks and I was literally staggering and weaving home at 2 in the afternoon. Fortunately lived near the brick water tower so not too far to stagger B) In those days the ABV was a closely guarded secret and I quickly learned that XXXX ain't Carling.

Edit: I should say that I was a keen beer afficianado even back then, one of the first CAMRA and my palate was well tuned to Pilsner Urquell, Green King Abbott, you name it. And back then Aussie beers held their head up well against the worlds' best, I was very impressed - and certainly a cut _way_ above Pom lagers in those days. I really think they have been dumbed down in the last few decades.


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## DanRayner (14/1/11)

BribieG said:


> When I first arrived in QLD in the late 70s the standard drink was a seven ounce glass (33 cents ) followed by a ten ounce (42 cents). I couldn't believe the sevens, the second day in Oz, in Bundaberg actually at 29 degrees, I went out to have a counter lunch which was a huge novelty as there was little or no pub food in the UK at the time.
> 
> I said "what's the biggest beer size you can get?" ... Jug, sweetie.
> 
> So I had two jugs with lunch, being used to pints of 4.0 % ABV the 5% Fourex hit me like a ton of bricks and I was literally staggering and weaving home at 2 in the afternoon. Fortunately lived near the brick water tower so not too far to stagger B) In those days the ABV was a closely guarded secret and I quickly learned that XXXX ain't Carling.



Fantastic! HA! That's great  if jugs then were what they are now (1125mL) that's pretty much four pints at lunch or eight standards! - good effort!


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## Amin (14/1/11)

DanRayner said:


> I don't recall a bottle of beer in a pub ever costing the same as a bottle in a bottle shop. A middy/schooner will cost less in a pub than a bottle in a pub cos the rate of excise is dramatically less on 50L kegs than on bottles.
> 
> But a liquor store does not have to have anywhere near the same on-going costs as a pub compared with the turnover of stock in each venue. Liquor stores generally have less staff on compared with the volume of liquor sold. Liquor stores can (might not, but can) have less floor space which should = less rent. The liquor store doesn't have to get a cleaner in at the end of every shift like a busy pub will.
> 
> ...


I should probably clarify this is what I've been told by people over 50 with reference to the 70's. Allowing for the increased costs of having people drink on the premises it still seems to me that their is a growing divergence between the cost of a beer in a pub and takeaway. 

As for the industrial relations most bottleshop staff are paid under the same award as pubs, big chains such as Dan's place employees on an award that encompasses most woolworths employees. IIRC the rates for bar/bottle shop staff in SA went down after the national awards came in.

Not sure about liquor licensing laws , I can't imagine it is a huge cost on pubs unborn by retail outlets.


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## Tim (14/1/11)

I think if landlords in the UK charged more than half the cost of a full pint for a half pint glass then people would simply not go to those pubs. There are plenty to go top, way more per capita than we have here. It's not a CAMRA thing, but a competition and historical thing. The extra cost of doing business is irrelevant. The customer is buying the beer, overheads and extra work in its serving are not the concern of the consumer he is simply paying for the beer. I'm not saying it's right or wrong its just the way it is.

Its the same with banking - no UK banks charge fees on ATM's and everyday accounts. If one did their customers would just up and leave to another bank. I think that ATM's are free regardless of which bank or ATM you belong to through legislation.

Also in the UK it doesn't cost more to call a UK landline than it does to a mobile. We get rorted here in that regard.


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## DanRayner (14/1/11)

Amin said:


> I should probably clarify this is what I've been told by people over 50 with reference to the 70's. Allowing for the increased costs of having people drink on the premises it still seems to me that their is a growing divergence between the cost of a beer in a pub and takeaway.
> 
> As for the industrial relations most bottleshop staff are paid under the same award as pubs, big chains such as Dan's place employees on an award that encompasses most woolworths employees. IIRC the rates for bar/bottle shop staff in SA went down after the national awards came in.
> 
> Not sure about liquor licensing laws , I can't imagine it is a huge cost on pubs unborn by retail outlets.



Ah fair enough. Cases of VB etc are often ridiculously cheap at places like Dan Murphy's and 1st Choice and when they are they are called "loss leaders" cos Coles and Woolies actually lose money on them - the theory being that if you enticed into the store to buy a $34 case of VB then you might buy a bottle of Hardy's red that they are making a massive margin on. I have a mate who works for 1st Choice and he said they lost $14million on VB alone last year - but don't hold me to it, he is only the manager of one Vintage Cellars and clearly they make money on other things cos Coles is a good bet on the stock market!

The average, independent liquor store will aim for a margin of 29-33% gross profit (GP) on a single bottle of beer (or a mark up of 50%), around 10% less or 22-25% GP on a sixpack of beer and another 10% less or 14-18% GP on a case of beer. That means if a bottle of LCPA costs about $2.16 (a fair estimate - a case after GST will cost about $52) then the bottleshop will make $1.08 per bottle when sold individually or a measly $0.53 per bottle when sold in a case priced at $65 (again, fair estimates). But they aim to sell loads and loads and loads and loads in a day. At some stage there is a point where the store pays for wages and rent and hopefully the owner can take home a little extra - but it's pretty cut-throat.

Most pubs/bars (at least in the ACT) will aim for an overall margin of around 80% GP which means a mark up of 400% on average for everything. Base spirits they probably get more and bottled beer they get waay less on. A pint of VB might cost the pub about $1.85 (based on a keg costing around $165) and so if they sell that pint for $6? then the GP is only 69% which is lower than other drinks, even if you pay $6.50 it's still only 71%. And if you pay $7.50 for a bottle of nice beer like a LCPA again, it's still about 71% GP. The margins for these pubs are 80% for a reason; they have waaaay more staff and higher rent _*compared with the paltry turnover of stock.*_

As for industrial relations laws staff at big bottleshops are paid the same award as little pub staff on paper but it is not always like that in reality - Dan Murphy's/1st Choice etc pay award wages above the table cos they are big, supposedly law-abiding companies, also they are only open during reasonable daylight+a-bit-extra hours.

Pubs work at all kinds of the day and night and the majority of their (usually casual) staff hours are during high penalty-rate times of the night and weekend - to offset these high-cost wages many pubs will offer their uni-student-casual staff under-the-table cash monies so that the kiddies can also claim Austudy/Dole whatever... These are not the same working conditions found at large supermarket chains.

I understand that this won't have had a noticeable effect on prices over the last few years and it only affects the ACT but liquor licences changed in the ACT in early December last year. If a pub wants to stay open after midnight now it has to pay a much higher licence fee - it depends on each venue of course but it went from say $2500 or so to about $15,000? but when you think about it that's the sort of amount that a medium-sized late-night pub/bar would hope to gross on a single Friday night. It was brought in so that the ACT Gov could pay for more coppers to deal with late-night drink-related violence. But it has been suggested that this might create more issues when the patrons from smaller pubs (that normally only open to say, 2am and can't justify the higher licence price) are now out and about looking for later-night venues and already have a gut full of booze... meh, whatever...


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## Amin (16/1/11)

DanRayner said:


> As for industrial relations laws staff at big bottleshops are paid the same award as little pub staff on paper but it is not always like that in reality - Dan Murphy's/1st Choice etc pay award wages above the table cos they are big, supposedly law-abiding companies, also they are only open during reasonable daylight+a-bit-extra hours.
> 
> Pubs work at all kinds of the day and night and the majority of their (usually casual) staff hours are during high penalty-rate times of the night and weekend - to offset these high-cost wages many pubs will offer their uni-student-casual staff under-the-table cash monies so that the kiddies can also claim Austudy/Dole whatever... These are not the same working conditions found at large supermarket chains.



Woolworth's and probably Coles doesn't pay the same award as bottleshops, they have their own agreement which covers all of their non salary workers.

It might be different in the ACT but in SA none of the hospitality workers I know (As a student I know a few) is paid a higher rate based on the time of day, they get a base rate + loading for being a casual no penalty rates for working nights. I'm also yet to met a barman/glassy being paid cash in a pub, most of them are run by large chains who avoid cash in hand payments for the same reason as Coles and Woolworths or don't want trouble with their liquor license. In my/ my friends experience the places paying cash in hand are small businesses such as fruit and veg shops or bakeries rather than chains or franchises.

I get that it costs more to have someone drink on premises, it might just be that I live in Adelaide but the increase in the cost of buying a pint in a pub seems to increase at a far greater rate than the cost of buying that same beer in the bottleshop attached to the pub, despite the introduction of pokie room's open 18 hours a day.


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## thelastspud (17/1/11)

Amin said:


> Not sure about liquor licensing laws , I can't imagine it is a huge cost on pubs unborn by retail outlets.



The pub I used to go to in my home town on a Friday and Saturday night had about 5-6 bouncers/doormen lets say they cost about $20 an hour each and they all do a 5 hour shift. 
Thats 1000 a week, 52000 a year and they are there because of liquor licensing laws the police say they need x amount of security or the pub can't open. 
Thats a huge cost that bottle shops don't really need to worry about.
You need great AC in the summer, in the winter you need to pay for patio heaters for the smokers, glasses disappear all the time, someone vandalizes the toilets/smoke machine/pool table, The staff steal everything that isn't nailed down, to stop that you need a great camera system(you need cameras anyway its a condition of licensing laws). 

Then somehow you have to back sure no one on the premises is drunk. or you'll get fined by the licensing police. 
y


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## DanRayner (17/1/11)

Amin said:


> Woolworth's and probably Coles doesn't pay the same award as bottleshops, they have their own agreement which covers all of their non salary workers.
> 
> It might be different in the ACT but in SA none of the hospitality workers I know (As a student I know a few) is paid a higher rate based on the time of day, they get a base rate + loading for being a casual no penalty rates for working nights. I'm also yet to met a barman/glassy being paid cash in a pub, most of them are run by large chains who avoid cash in hand payments for the same reason as Coles and Woolworths or don't want trouble with their liquor license. In my/ my friends experience the places paying cash in hand are small businesses such as fruit and veg shops or bakeries rather than chains or franchises.
> 
> I get that it costs more to have someone drink on premises, it might just be that I live in Adelaide but the increase in the cost of buying a pint in a pub seems to increase at a far greater rate than the cost of buying that same beer in the bottleshop attached to the pub, despite the introduction of pokie room's open 18 hours a day.



I'm guessing it is a little different here in Canberra; we don't have large companies that own chains of pubs - most are owned by individuals. I also understand that it would be different in Queensland, most pubs there actually being owned by Coles or Woolies cos of some weird-ass licensing law that only permits pub owners to be owners of liquor stores?

In the ACT we generally don't have bottlos attached to pubs (cos we don't have many actual pubs)

But we do have underpaid workers - this article talks about professional, mature staff reclaiming unpaid/under-the-table wages - it's so much worse and under-reported for teenage casuals working at bars, bakeries, restaurants etc while at uni. Those that are paid award wage as a casual usually get 25% extra for being casual, 50% for being casual on a Saturday, 75% extra for being a casual on a Sunday and 175% extra for working public holidays. That's under the new 2010 award, previous awards, some of which will still be in use and are searchable on the Fair Work Ombudsman's site, also included penalty rates for casuals working after 7pm. It's heartening to hear that all of your Adelaide uni friends get paid properly, that's a good thing.

Also, I fear it is only going to get more expensive in the Adelaide pubs that also have pokies: new national pokie laws - as these laws will probably lower the income of the ACT's social/sports clubs' revenue too...



Bradley said:


> The pub I used to go to in my home town on a Friday and Saturday night had about 5-6 bouncers/doormen lets say they cost about $20 an hour each and they all do a 5 hour shift.
> Thats 1000 a week, 52000 a year and they are there because of liquor licensing laws the police say they need x amount of security or the pub can't open.
> Thats a huge cost that bottle shops don't really need to worry about.
> You need great AC in the summer, in the winter you need to pay for patio heaters for the smokers, glasses disappear all the time, someone vandalizes the toilets/smoke machine/pool table, The staff steal everything that isn't nailed down, to stop that you need a great camera system(you need cameras anyway its a condition of licensing laws).
> ...



+ 1

Having worked 10yrs as a doorman $20/hr is way underpaid!


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## stm (17/1/11)

DanRayner said:


> An Aussie schooner (unless you're in Adelaide where they call it a pint) is 425mL or approximately 14 ounces (or 15 ounces if you are ready to believe Wikipedia even though 425mL converts 14.3 fluid ounces)



No, a 425ml schooner is in fact 15 ounces (specifically 14.96 fluid ounces (UK)). Your conversion to 14.3 used US ounces, which is not relevant to Australian beer measures. All your other conversions used UK fluid ounces.

Otherwise, a very informative and interesting post. Thanks.


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## DanRayner (17/1/11)

stm said:


> No, a 425ml schooner is in fact 15 ounces (specifically 14.96 fluid ounces (UK)). Your conversion to 14.3 used US ounces, which is not relevant to Australian beer measures. All your other conversions used UK fluid ounces.
> 
> Otherwise, a very informative and interesting post. Thanks.



Happy to be corrected  I did get a little confused as 14 US fluid ounces = 414mL and 15 US fluid ounces = 440mL. But it makes sense now

cheers,

D


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## Amin (17/1/11)

DanRayner said:


> I'm guessing it is a little different here in Canberra; we don't have large companies that own chains of pubs - most are owned by individuals. I also understand that it would be different in Queensland, most pubs there actually being owned by Coles or Woolies cos of some weird-ass licensing law that only permits pub owners to be owners of liquor stores?
> 
> In the ACT we generally don't have bottlos attached to pubs (cos we don't have many actual pubs)


That is quite different to here, Woolworths, Coles and groups like Independent Pub Group own quite a few and there are smaller chains like the Saturno family that are privately held and own 2-10 pubs with a sprinkling of independent owner operators. During my induction to for Dan Murphy's we were told that the only reason Woolworth ever bought a pub was because of the laws in Queensland, nothing to do with pokies.  



DanRayner said:


> But we do have underpaid workers - this article talks about professional, mature staff reclaiming unpaid/under-the-table wages - it's so much worse and under-reported for teenage casuals working at bars, bakeries, restaurants etc while at uni. Those that are paid award wage as a casual usually get 25% extra for being casual, 50% for being casual on a Saturday, 75% extra for being a casual on a Sunday and 175% extra for working public holidays. That's under the new 2010 award, previous awards, some of which will still be in use and are searchable on the Fair Work Ombudsman's site, also included penalty rates for casuals working after 7pm. It's heartening to hear that all of your Adelaide uni friends get paid properly, that's a good thing.



I think most of them are still being paid on the old state award, I know I am. My understanding is that there is a switch over period where the old award can still be used but I look forward to the rise in casual rates.



DanRayner said:


> Also, I fear it is only going to get more expensive in the Adelaide pubs that also have pokies: new national pokie laws - as these laws will probably lower the income of the ACT's social/sports clubs' revenue too...


I'd rather that they didn't have pokies here, they've ruined plenty of pubs and I generally avoid drinking in pubs that have them so it won't affect me that often.



DanRayner said:


> Having worked 10yrs as a doorman $20/hr is way underpaid!


Check out http://workingthedoors.co.uk/ and see what doorman are paid in the UK, it will scare you.


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## DanRayner (17/1/11)

Amin said:


> I think most of them are still being paid on the old state award, I know I am. My understanding is that there is a switch over period where the old award can still be used but I look forward to the rise in casual rates.



That would be good - all those awards were thrown out the window with WorkChoices and now have to be reinstated!



Amin said:


> I'd rather that they didn't have pokies here, they've ruined plenty of pubs and I generally avoid drinking in pubs that have them so it won't affect me that often.



Agreed 



Amin said:


> Check out http://workingthedoors.co.uk/ and see what doorman are paid in the UK, it will scare you.



Shit, that's terrible. "Up to 11 per hour" + they have advertisements for "Knife and Bullet proof body armour" on the opening page! And a news article "Man jailed for 10 years after machete attack on door staff" - **** that, so not worth the risks.


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## Amber Fluid (17/1/11)

All states are governed by different laws and by-laws, there are no Woolworths, Coles or supermarket stores in Tassie that sell any alcohol as it is against the law here.

In Tassie, having worked doors for 15 years (not for the last 8 years now though) I used to have people working for me for only $15 per hour. I also worked behind the bar in other jobs and do know first hand people do in fact get paid "under the table" after all, I was one of them due to me being only 17 at the time. Still having contacts in both industries I also know that this practice still exists. However, obviously it is a risk that the licencee would be held for.


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## Hatchy (17/1/11)

Amber Fluid said:


> All states are governed by different laws and by-laws, there are no Woolworths, Coles or supermarket stores in Tassie that sell any alcohol as it is against the law here.
> 
> In Tassie, having worked doors for 15 years (not for the last 8 years now though) I used to have people working for me for only $15 per hour. I also worked behind the bar in other jobs and do know first hand people do in fact get paid "under the table" after all, I was one of them due to me being only 17 at the time. Still having contacts in both industries I also know that this practice still exists. However, obviously it is a risk that the licencee would be held for.



The supermarkets don't sell booze here either.

Do you have bws, dan murphys or liquorland in tassie?


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## Amber Fluid (17/1/11)

Hatchy said:


> The supermarkets don't sell booze here either.
> 
> Do you have bws, dan murphys or liquorland in tassie?




Unless there is Liquorland in the North of the state, we only have BWS which I know is a Woolworths company.


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