# Sparging In Biab Made Efficiency Go 60 > 79%!



## BjornJ (23/9/10)

Some time ago there was a discussion on here about sparging when doing BIAB.
The consensus from several brewers was that sparging after mashing in a high volume of water was a waste of time, it had limited functionality.

Having some spare time on my hands, I wanted to try it out on my setup to see what the difference would be for me.
(you know what they say of idle hands..)


I BIAB and the last couple of beers I have not sparged, only raised the grain bag and let it drip into the urn before discarding the grains. Not even squeezing it.
I use 60% efficiency in beersmith when calculating the recipes and hit my target volumes and OG, or possibly get 2 gravity points too much.

On Sunday I brewed again, a 100% pilsner malt grain bill of 7 kg.

With 60% efficiency the OG was supposed to be 1.048.
The wort in the fermenter was OG 1.064, that's 79% efficency!!
(Volume was correct at 27 litres)


What I did differently:
Usually I mash for 60 mins, the add heat and stir for the 10 mins it takes to mash-out temp of 76-77 and hold for 5 mins before raising the bag. No squeezing, no sparging, just let it drip then discard the grains.

This time I mashed for 90 mins, then put the grain bag in my fermenter and added about 8 litres of water at 77 degrees. Tapped the water out through the tap and put it in the boil before doing a normal 60 min boil.

So two things are different:
1: 60 min mash + mash-out VS. 90 min mash with no mash-out.
2: No sparge VS. sparge


There clearly was lots of malt sugar in the sparge liquid I got out, from looking at it and tasting it.

So other BIAB'ers do you sparge or not?
What efficiency % do you use in beersmith/promash to accomodate your setup?


On another note, I will need to dilute this after fermentation I think, 
Old Volume/New volume x OG = new OG
Old volume/New volume x IBU = new IBU, etc but with the higher OG the IBUs are not 36 as calculated at 1.048 but 32, so less IBUs to dilute as well, hmm..


thanks
Bjorn


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/9/10)

100% agree with sparging for BIAB.

I use the wife's 9L pot with a pasta strainer/vege steamer insert as a "false bottom" for my grains.

Consistenly over 80% efficiency.

As I mentioned in another thread, this idea was borne as much from "how to do it without brewery assistant" as anything else.

As I don't (yet) own a large pot, I mash in 2 x 19L Big W pots to give me enough water volume to mash in, splitting the grain bill in 2. Again, this means that I'm only lifting 2-2.5kg of grain, dumping it in 9L pot and sparging. Means that I can easily do a brew by myself without lifting, pulleying, putting on hooks/doorknobs/any knobs.

Hope this helps someone else.


Goomba


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## QldKev (23/9/10)

I BIAB and I sparge.

My process is close to what you did, 

Large bowl (wider than a fermentor) with a cake rack in the bottom. The rack has the sides bent down so it sits 2 to 3 inches off the bottom. 

Step 1.
I lift the bag out from the kettle, dump it in the bowl, and let it drain. This also allows me to fire up the burner to start getting it to the boil. The cake rack allows the juice to drain completely from the bag.

Step 2.
After a few minutes I drain the bowl back into the kettle. 

Step 3.
I then open the top of the bag up and sparge with 4L of tap temp water. I used to use warm water but found minimal difference; warm water gives a couple of extra % sugar, but for the extra effort it's not worth it. I find the trick with the sparge is to dump the entire lot of water in 1 hit so it floods the grain to wash out the sugar. 

Step 4.
After about 5-10mins I then tip the sparged water into the kettle.

This is the process I have used from my very first BIAB. I started this way as I only had a 40L pot so I needed to add some water after the mash. I now run a dual brew rig (2 batches running at a time) and often brew by myself so I need to keep the process easy. I normally get around 80%-82% pre-boil efficiency.

QldKev


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## MarkBastard (23/9/10)

I use 68% efficiency in BeerSmith and hit it every time pretty much now.

I don't do a mash out, I don't do any sparge.

I mash for 60 minutes.

Once I have the right temp strike water I turn my urn off, put the bag in, put the grain in and mash for about 1-2 minutes, then put the lid on and lag. Walk away for an hour, I never check anything during the mash. Measure the temp after 60, usually 1.5 degrees heat loss (I reckon a lot of that would come out at the start as my lagging absorbs some of the heat then retains it). I then give it another mash for 1-2 minutes in an attempt to mix it all up and then pull the bag out. I drain it very half-arsed and still hit the 68% BeerSmith efficiency.

If I were you I'd be wondering why I was getting 60% personally.


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## RdeVjun (23/9/10)

Yep Bjorn, that's been my impression with sparged BIAB too, it gives a greater efficiency, in the high 70's and beyond with relative ease.

Its a bit of a derail these comments, so I'm sorry for the slight digression, but it is probably worth noting. Nick JD's 20L stovetop thread is one version, here's my own take (MaxiBIAB), they're both quite similar sparged BIABs. I've endorsed the sparged BIAB for a variety of reasons, the prime one being that it is a low- risk, low- cost entry into AG that can still do full batches, i.e. 23L, still with very decent efficiency and from equipment which is cheap and readily available. So novice brewers can get into an AG method which works quite reliably and without breaking the bank, but also know that even if they don't like it (for what ever reason) then the equipment is still useful for other things in the household, unlike other methods where there's not many other uses for the gear. There's a couple of other handy features which make the process even easier on the brain come brewday, viz. just filling vessels up to the brim rather than calculating volumes and temperatures.

Efficiency isn't the be- all and end- all though, just a handy by- product. As we all know, a bit more grain can make up the difference, but with that can come unintended consequences, particularly with the MaxiBIAB I mention above, it can overflow a 10L bucket when sparging meaning less sparge water can be added, lower yield, however in going down this track with more grain the brewer may not want to sparge in that situation anyway, i.e. full- volume BIAB with more grain, anticipating lower efficiency.

The down side to sparging a BIAB is that it is an added complication which is may be challenging to novice brewers. I accept that for sure, I guess they've got to make that call. It is just another variant of BIAB, the intent I guess was to eliminate multiple processes, by including mash and sparge in one water addition it does that quite admirably. The simplicity of what Mark describes does have me torn, but that's with an urn and not a cheap 19L stockpot on the kitchen stove and 10L bucket, and there's the main difference- the cost of the equipment.

The longer mash seems helpful to efficiency too. I've not mashed for just 60 minutes for quite a while, I figure it isn't harder or any more inconvenient to just leave it for another half hour, or even longer.

Hope this helps, and sorry for the essay... :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G (23/9/10)

I have sparged bigger grain bills and ended up with a lot more wort in the kettle, then given it a 90 minute boil to get the level back to what it would have been. I'm going more for one hour boils nowadays because of $ . I suppose the answer would be to use 5L less in the initial mash but sparge with 5L. However would that give better efficiency I wonder, or would it just be six of one half a dozen of the other. <_<


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## beerdrinkingbob (23/9/10)

I now sparge after listening to some advise Rdevjun, thanks mate! I have switched mine up a little to make it a bit easier and less messy.

I now own a 15 litre bucket from the big green shed, throw the bag in and open it up, poor 7 litres through the grain at mash out temps, cover it up, leave it for 8 mintues and drain, I then do a second 3 ltr batch for top up water. 

Been hitting 75% :super:


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## felten (23/9/10)

I don't sparge, but I do a mash out stirring the whole time and I get around 80% efficiency, except for one brew with a 7.5kg grain bill where I had problems getting it to fit into my kettle.


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## Rodolphe01 (23/9/10)

Can't really add much in terms of experience, but my thoughts thus far... 

For my first batch I mashed out at 75 degrees, for my next batch I will mash out hotter and compare the different efficiencies. First batch had some volume issues so will take any results with a grain of salt. I will be obviously looking at efficiency with my brews.

But I reckon with an elevated temp mash out, efficiency should be greatly improved. Before I start stuffing about with sparging I will tinker with mash out temps to improve efficiency etc. And if efficiency is still too low will look at other techniques, but I reckon just throwing in an extra few handfuls of grain and living with slightly lower efficiency is better than using more gas/electricity having to increase boil times etc to get volume right.

I guess I am thinking out aloud... i'll come back when I have some numbers :unsure: 

Also, I went with BIAB for the simplicity and small footprint of gear needed... If I really wanted to sparge i'd have an esky w/ false bottom


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/9/10)

Rudi 101 said:


> Can't really add much in terms of experience, but my thoughts thus far...
> 
> For my first batch I mashed out at 75 degrees, for my next batch I will mash out hotter and compare the different efficiencies. First batch had some volume issues so will take any results with a grain of salt. I will be obviously looking at efficiency with my brews.
> 
> ...



Fellow Northside Brisvegan, don't forget that raising mash temps changes the conversion of sugars from starches.

Lower Mash temp = more fermentable sugars (and thinner body), higher mash temps = less fermentable sugars (and thicker body, lower alcohol). Higher than 78 degrees will increase the probability of extracting tannins and create astringent beer.

Goomba

Not sure about the effect on efficiency.


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## katzke (23/9/10)

No sparge and 75%.

BIAB is suposed to be simple.


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## Nick JD (23/9/10)

I put the grain bag in a big heavy duty plastic bag with a vacuum pump connected to it running into a catch pot. 

You wanna hear about efficiencies ... I gots the efficiencies out the waazoo. 

The grain ends up damn near dry and I can do mentally large grain bills in a stovepot for my high grav brews. 

I'll do a thread soon for everyone to rip shit out of.  

BIAB is whatever you want it to be. It's Open Source, mutha flippers.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/9/10)

katzke said:


> No sparge and 75%.
> 
> BIAB is suposed to be simple.




It is simple.

Pouring a couple of kettles onto some grain to gain % points is pretty simple to me. It takes very little time and has a great effect. To me the time/effort vs reward is a no-brainer, though I accept not all will view it the same.


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## Phoney (23/9/10)

I dont sparge and consistently hit between 70 & 75%.

My process is basically a 75 min mash, with a stir every 20 - 30 mins, then I turn the urn back on and stir for the 15 mins until it hits 78C, then turn off and sit for 10mins. Raise bag, squeeze a couple of times and let drip into the urn.

The only time I do sparge is when I have grain bills >6KG. I do it because it simply wont fit in my urn with ~33L of water. So I reserve 6 - 8L (depending on grain bill) in a soup pot, then after mashout I dump the bag into my 19L stockpot, heat the water in the soup pot up to 77C on the stove, pour that over the grains into the 19L stockpot, sit for 10, then hoist and squeeze again, then tip that into the kettle.


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## MarkBastard (23/9/10)

Rudi 101 said:


> I reckon just throwing in an extra few handfuls of grain and living with slightly lower efficiency is better than using more gas/electricity having to increase boil times etc to get volume right.



For me it's more about the process itself but I have a similar point.

I use the easiest process I can and I get efficiency I can bank on. It may not be the highest, but it's consistent and the process is simple.

The only reason I would want higher efficiency is to save money, but if I want to save money I have other options too.

If I was going to make things more complex I'd probably just get an eski to be honest.


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## beerdrinkingbob (23/9/10)

Nick JD said:


> I put the grain bag in a big heavy duty plastic bag with a vacuum pump connected to it running into a catch pot.
> 
> You wanna hear about efficiencies ... I gots the efficiencies out the waazoo.
> 
> ...



Can't wait for that one, the mind boggles <_<


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## Phoney (23/9/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If I was going to make things more complex I'd probably just get an eski to be honest.



I seem to remember the consensus being that BIAB gives better efficiency than 2V with an esky mash tun.


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## Acasta (23/9/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> I seem to remember the consensus being that BIAB gives better efficiency than 2V with an esky mash tun.


Yeah? Elaborate?


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## Nick JD (23/9/10)

I get 79.5% with a SMaSH using BB Ale, squeezing, no sparge. 16L pre boil at 1.055 using 3.5kg of grain ... I think because I over-mill my grain. 

Sparging can raise this by a percent or two, which is why I don't bother for these 18L batches.

EDIT: the highest efficiency I've ever got was 84% IIRC.


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## juzz1981 (23/9/10)

Acasta said:


> Yeah? Elaborate?



Yeah please do, my zapap mash/lauter tun + keg boiler gives me over 80-85% eff, wouldn't have thought BIAB would have given that high of efficiency.... then again I've never done a BIAB so what would I know


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## Phoney (23/9/10)

Acasta said:


> Yeah? Elaborate?



There was a thread, about a year ago, i'll see if I can dig it up....

NickJD, I think it may have been one of yours no?


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## Rodolphe01 (23/9/10)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Fellow Northside Brisvegan, don't forget that raising mash temps changes the conversion of sugars from starches.
> 
> Lower Mash temp = more fermentable sugars (and thinner body), higher mash temps = less fermentable sugars (and thicker body, lower alcohol). Higher than 78 degrees will increase the probability of extracting tannins and create astringent beer.
> 
> ...



I'm picking up what you're putting down, but i mean just elevated mash out temp which = lower viscosity therefore more sugar extracted from the grain.

Speaking of Nth of the river... where do you get grain? I was getting small amounts when i was partial-BIAB from one place, but last time I tried they were out of stock of what i wanted, then out of stock on the sub, and then out of stock again on the sub of the sub. Consequently I got sad and haven't been back...


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## RobB (23/9/10)

I don't sparge, I do mash out and my efficiency into the kettle seems to have settled at 82%. I do, however, attack my bag with a jumbo potato masher which gets me a couple of extra litres.

I tried dunk sparging early on and it did improve my efficiency, but then I stopped doing it and I found I was getting the same improved result! It's funny, I swear that I'm not doing anything differently now compared to my first batch, yet my efficiency has increased from 60% to 80+% over time.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/9/10)

Rudi 101 said:


> I'm picking up what you're putting down, but i mean just elevated mash out temp which = lower viscosity therefore more sugar extracted from the grain.
> 
> Speaking of Nth of the river... where do you get grain? I was getting small amounts when i was partial-BIAB from one place, but last time I tried they were out of stock of what i wanted, then out of stock on the sub, and then out of stock again on the sub of the sub. Consequently I got sad and haven't been back...



I've yet to find a (good) one on the Northside. I dropped into the bloke at Kedron (I'm at Wavell Heights), and he is still rubbish, I wasn't imagining it.

So I occasionally take a trip down to craftbrewer or do an online order and have it delivered - since the delivery is free anyway. I can't fault the range or the price, and so long as I order by Wed (or ring them if I order thursday, so I get friday), it'll be on my doorstep in time for the weekend. I recommend going down there occasionally - it's a hike to Capalaba (go over story bridge, old cleveland road through Carindale, under Gateway arterial, and you are there), but it is worth having a yak to Ross or Anthony, as their knowledge is fantastic and if you need subs, they'll give a good suggestion based on experience.

Goomba


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