# Dry hopping problem



## minimalizarte (25/1/14)

Hi all, I am having a dry hopping problem. I made an experimental 5 gallon/20 liter batch ipa which was dry hopped with 30 grams of galaxy flower hops for seven days (after the main fermentation). 

The beer was a success and so I started making batches of 40 gallons/150 liters, fermenting in 15 gallon/60 liter fermenters, and dry hopping with 90 grams of galaxy pellet hops for seven days (after the main fermentation). The beers, however, do not have anywhere near the same amount of aroma. 

Can anyone tell me why this could be? The containers are exactly the same in shape, but are double the size obviously. I have considered that perhaps the pellet hops, which came in a vacuum sealed bag and are kept in my freezer, just aren't as potent as the original flower hops. My next batch will have 110 grams of hops for every 50 liters, but I wasn't sure if there was a more professional technique for dry hopping apart from dropping the hops into the fermenter. 

Any ideas?


----------



## minimalizarte (25/1/14)

This is to say that the first batch was 5 gallons (about 20 liters) in one 7.9 gallon (30 liter) container with 30 grams of hops. The second batch was 40 gallons divided into 3 containers, each container had a 15.8 capacity (60 liters), but held 13.3 gallons, and each container receiving 90 grams of hops (which is to say 270 grams total).


----------



## yum beer (25/1/14)

You have answered your own question in the question. Pellets vs flowers.


----------



## minimalizarte (25/1/14)

That doesn't quite convince me though. I mean I have dry hopped with pellets before, and 30 grams for 20 liters is a good amount in just about any circumstance. I don't see what difference it would make unless, for some reason, a vacuum sealed bag of pellet hops had lost its potency... which I find doubtful.


----------



## Beerbuoy (25/1/14)

The hops are probably getting less exposure as they are sitting on the bottom. Even though there are more hops maybe they are only being exposed to the bottom 20lts.

Same thing as using a small oak barrel vs a large barrel. The small barrel always gives more exposure to the liquid.


----------



## elcarter (25/1/14)

I dry hop with 60g of galaxy in a 23L batch. 

Way more pellets needed for 150L batch me thinks.

Keg hop?


----------



## wereprawn (25/1/14)

Was the yeast the same in both brews?


----------



## minimalizarte (25/1/14)

*@Wereprawn* Both batches used safale US05. 

*@Elcarter* I thought of keg hopping but I need to bottle as well so it isn't gonna do. I am going to up the hop amount from 270 grams per 150 liters to 330 grams in order to see if there is any change. I am also going to wait 12-14 days before dry hopping, just in case the yeast clean up process is eliminating the hop aroma.

*@Beerbuoy* This is one of the things I considered. If this is the case, what can I do about it? Is there any way to make sure the hops are exposed to the other liters? How do microbreweries dry hop? Because I imagine that they would face the same problem at higher level.


----------



## elcarter (25/1/14)

So it's still in the fermenter? 

Hop that stuff now


----------



## malt_shovel (25/1/14)

Have a look at using a cold crash and secondary to drop out the yeast before dry hopping. Stone brewer swears by rousing the dry hops in secondary to increase the contact surface area and also dry hops in batches (ie split your dry hop weight into two equal parts add first for two/three days then change out with the next) I think the main culprit is the yeast mass in such a large batch stripping out hop character. Cold crash, secondary and dry hop in two parts would be my recommendation.
Best of luck and let us know how you go.


----------



## hoppy2B (25/1/14)

Pellets are said to have less aroma than flowers because the crushing of the flowers to make pellets releases some of the aroma.


----------



## Beerbuoy (26/1/14)

minimalizarte said:


> *@Wereprawn* Both batches used safale US05.
> 
> *@Elcarter* I thought of keg hopping but I need to bottle as well so it isn't gonna do. I am going to up the hop amount from 270 grams per 150 liters to 330 grams in order to see if there is any change. I am also going to wait 12-14 days before dry hopping, just in case the yeast clean up process is eliminating the hop aroma.
> 
> *@Beerbuoy* This is one of the things I considered. If this is the case, what can I do about it? Is there any way to make sure the hops are exposed to the other liters? How do microbreweries dry hop? Because I imagine that they would face the same problem at higher level.


I believe some micro breweries bubble CO2 up through the fermenter to rouse the hops. I guess the ideal way to do this would be a conical fermenter. You could drop the yeast out then dry hop and rouse with CO2. Bit expensive though.
My last batch I crushed the pellets up a bit first. I find the pellets normally just sink straight to the bottom but if you crush them up they seem to float around for a bit longer. 
With 330 grams of hops it might help to double dry hop. Add half then the other half 3 days latter. The Brewstrong guys did an article on using this technic to increase the exposure of the hops.


----------



## minimalizarte (26/1/14)

*@malt_shovel* Maybe the yeast is being problematic, but I don't know. If the aroma from the first small batch was excellent and the yeast situation was similar, part of me thinks that it may not be the main problem. Then again, the big containers would have double the yeast, and I did use flower hops the first time around, so perhaps the bulkiness of the bag made everything work out. A cone fermenter would probably be my best shot at making everything work...

*@Beerbuoy *Bubble up CO2? Wouldn't that scrub the aroma out? 

I have some bottles where I did a double dry hop that should be ready by tuesday. They have 85 grams of galaxy from the first dry hop and 50 more of citra from the second. So that theory will be tested out in the week. I have another batch that is on day 6 of fermentation, but for that one I am going to wait until next friday to dry hop. I will keep in mind, however, the idea of breaking up the dry pellets (I guess with a spoon or something).


----------



## Beerbuoy (27/1/14)

They only bubble the C02 through the beer just long enough to stir up the hops, I'm guessing something like 30 seconds each day maybe. I don't think this would scrub much aroma but I have no experience with micro brewing so just what I've read/heard.

As for crushing the pellets I just give the foil bag a good pounding in a mortar and pestle before tipping them in straight from the bag. No contamination then. About half the pellets stay intact.

I'm interested in hearing the outcome of your double dry hoping.


----------



## minimalizarte (29/1/14)

Just tried a bottle of double dry hopped ipa.... not much of a change really. The beer had been dry hopped after 7 days of fermenting, and then again after another 4 days, and bottled four days after. I did not notice a significant change. 

Lets see what happens when I dry hop after 14 days of fermentation.


----------



## Token (29/1/14)

I usually give my beers 3 weeks to ferment, dry hop for about 1 week, then bottle after a total of 4 weeks in primary. 

Give that yeast time to ferment and then clean up after themselves. Things should have settled down well enough by then. That's when you add the dry hops. I make sure to bottle 5 to 7 days after making the dry hop addition. I usually use pellets and get good results.

That beer sounds pretty good with those hops!! Wish I were nearby so I could sample with you!!


----------



## Token (29/1/14)

8 oz of pellet hops on a Norther Brewer Surly Furious kit. This beer was pretty crazy, and the dry hop was no exception. It eventually fell, but it had me scratchin' my head for a while!


----------



## minimalizarte (29/1/14)

*@Token* 8 ounces?? Wow.

I started out like you giving the beer three weeks in primary, but then I worked all summer in a brewery and found that you only really need 7 to 10 days (as long as you have enough yeast and oxygen) for most beers around 5-7% alcohol. The extra time can help with a beer that has some kinks in it, but it isn't always necessary.

Right now I think the most likely culprit for the aroma difficulty is the yeast. This saturday will mark two weeks that the beer has been fermenting, and considering that temperatures are around 16 degrees C, the yeast will most likely have settled and cleared. The bad news is that a month is gonna go by before I can give y'all results.


----------



## Spiesy (29/1/14)

I'm going with pellets v flowers as well. 

It's the only variable, right?

And flowers are known for being better for dry hopping than their pellet counterparts.


----------



## minimalizarte (29/1/14)

The other main variable is fermenter size / yeast quantity, and the possibility of a beer that is not 100% cleaned up. 

It could very well be the hops. I am still reluctant to get flower hops however, because I would need to buy 5 kilos, and if I don't use those hops right quick they lose their potency.


----------



## Beerbuoy (1/2/14)

Just copied this from Brad Smiths article on dry hopping. I've also heard Jamil saying pellets are better in some of his podcasts. 



"Which hops work best for dry hopping? There is consensus that pellet hops are the best choice for dry hopping. Pellet hops are pulverized before being molded into pellets which maximizes the area exposed to your beer and also helps break down the cell structure of the hops. This helps expose and transfer the fragile hop oils into your beer."


----------



## minimalizarte (13/3/14)

FINALLY, after 3 more large batches and several weeks of fermentation I have come to the conclusion that the best way to maximize hop aroma is:

1) Wait until the beer is completely finished with fermentation (10 to 14 days)
2) Add 3 grams of hops for every liter. Fifty liters of beer needed 150 grams of hops to have a truly acceptable hop aroma. Less hops just won't cut it in my case. 

The most probable cause for the aroma difference between the first experimental batch of IPA and the much larger batches of IPA was yeast interference and scrubbing. Recently, in a different batch where I added 2 grams of hops for every liter at flame out, I ended up with a beer that had zero hop aroma (using safale us-05). So this seems to be the most reasonable answer. 

There is the possibility that the potency of leaf hops vs pellet hops could have been a factor, but as the potency of leaf hops decreases rapidly after opening a packet, the pellet hops are the best option all around (even if it means I have to add more of them for dry hopping). Making several hop additions did not improve the hop aroma, and the fermenting container type did not really change hop results. So I guess the best advice, like always, is to be patient


----------



## minimalizarte (13/3/14)

#duh


----------



## Spiesy (13/3/14)

Big generalisations there, mate. 

Different yeasts will have a different effect, and at different stages of fermentation. A lot of brewers recommend adding hops around 2/3 of the way into fermentation, that way the yeast will eat the O2 that is introduced with the addition of the dry hops - less chance of oxidation. 

Different hops into different beers/worts will require different quantities. 

Ie. you wouldn't dry hop a lager with Galaxy at the same rate you might dry hop a IIPA with Cascade. 

I'm finding, after a couple of recent lessons with Galaxy in particular, that dry hopping is a bit of a black art to perfect.


----------



## Spiesy (13/3/14)

Btw. What are "leaf hops"?


----------



## minimalizarte (13/3/14)

By leaf hops I mean whole hops. Since I have been living in Spain for the last ten years, I have gotten used to thinking of whole hops as leaf hops.

I admit that I am making some generalizations, but the original post was about IPAs with american ale yeast mostly on a 150 liter scale. I originally was from the school of adding hops at 2/3 the ways through as well, but my most recent efforts at reproducing a recipe on a larger scale has proven otherwise for me. I am sure for lagers it is a completely different process, though I don't think I have ever had a dry hopped lager in my life. 

Interestingly, I have found that adding 1 gram of hops per liter at 2/3 the way through the fermentation gives an aroma that I generally associate with adding hops at flameout (on a 150 liter scale).


----------



## Spiesy (13/3/14)

minimalizarte said:


> By leaf hops I mean whole hops. Since I have been living in Spain for the last ten years, I have gotten used to thinking of whole hops as leaf hops.


Sorry, I was being a smart-arse. Where about in Spain were you living?




minimalizarte said:


> I admit that I am making some generalizations, but the original post was about IPAs with american ale yeast mostly on a 150 liter scale. I originally was from the school of adding hops at 2/3 the ways through as well, but my most recent efforts at reproducing a recipe on a larger scale has proven otherwise for me. I am sure for lagers it is a completely different process, though I don't think I have ever had a dry hopped lager in my life.


Got you. Generally a lager wouldn't be dry-hopped, no. But who said rules have to be followed?



minimalizarte said:


> Interestingly, I have found that adding 1 gram of hops per liter at 2/3 the way through the fermentation gives an aroma that I generally associate with adding hops at flameout (on a 150 liter scale).


1g/L rarely does much for me either, to be honest. Although it does depend on what hop I use. Typically if I'm chasing aroma, I'll look at 2g/L - depending on the hop. I also get different results with the contact time and temperature of young beer when dry-hopping.


----------



## minimalizarte (13/3/14)

Córdoba, a small city by Seville. I'm working with the new microbrewery that sprung up here, and this whole thread has been me trying to work out my dry hop scaling issues - because man, Spain desperately needs IPA.


----------

