# What Is The Future Of Beer



## Glenn Hargreaves (2/2/10)

Howdy Everyone,

Simon and i where having a discussion about beer after work the other day and i thought i would put the question to the masses.
Where is beer going? We seem to be in the grips of a bigger is better attitude at the moment where the bigger the hops or higher the alchohol the better the beer. Are we starting to lose the ability to appreciate and understand the subtleties of different beers. 
If you look back about 5-8 years in the wine industry everyone wanted big Barossa reds or big oakey Chard's but now people are looking for light crisp whites and more refined cool climate style reds. Is the brewing industry in its big stage.
I am not talking about the emerggence of Low carb beers or corona etc but the beers that the people who know and appreciate beer are drinking.
We do some big beers ESB, STOUT and ABBBEY which get really well recieved yet our more subtle style's such as hefe or Celtic red don't get the same attention which i am sure is the same for most breweries.Don't get me wrong i love big hoppy beers and complex flavours from higher Alchohol beers but also love less in your face styles.

Just some things to discuss and let us know what the general feeling is, or give us some advice and we might brew a style you suggested.

Cheers
Glenn
Brewer
HARGREAVES HILL


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## sinkas (2/2/10)

Quintuple IPA all the way buddy,


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## newguy (2/2/10)

In the future apparently beer will be brewed in 5l batches by a completely automated robotic brewing and fermentation system designed by someone who hasn't actually brewed himself.

Yes, the future is indeed bright.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist the jab. If you've been following the automation threads you'll know what I'm talking about.

Jokes aside, I think that right now the fashionable things to brew are imperial anythings. The higher the alcohol and bitterness, the better. I have a feeling that the pendulum will swing toward more traditional styles/gravities and crossbreeds of "pure" styles. Think American Alt or Belgian Porter. Not sure if I'm right but I'm seeing more homebrewers doing this now - the breweries are usually a few years behind them.


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## Brewer_010 (2/2/10)

Fashions will come and go. As a trendsetter myself  , I'm moving away from the big hoppy beers and am now starting to (re)savour simple and balanced beers with nice fresh ingredients (pilsners and simple lagers etc). 

The same goes for food, I'm trying to keep some of my dishes simple fresh and really tasty rather than toooo much/many flavour (including too much of one flavour).


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## Pete2501 (2/2/10)

After perfecting my house APA which is quite hoppy my next endeavour will be an English mild. After drinking many beers my palate gets bored with low hop beers like coopers green. It's not until several that I'm used to the subtle flavours.


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## chappo1970 (2/2/10)

I don't know if we, well I can only speak on my behalf, will revert, otherwise we will all be brewing megaswills, no? And guess there is the rub, if want lightly hopped and slightly crisp beers then go down to the bottle shop there's walls of them. 

Personally the journey for me has been the hoppy as hell American styled IIPA'a and APA's, now I have done a 180deg in style terms and am really enjoying the British Styled beers like a Best Bitter, Ordinary Bitter and or ESB's. Lagers for me are more your Munich's and Vienna's with the occasional Aussie Lager.

I guess once you get into home brewing and discover how dead and lifeless Megaswill beer really is, you start to look towards beers with flavour and character. I went to the pub the other day with some mates and thought I would drink across the fonts and re-adjust the palate. To be honest I could hardly tell the difference between most of the offerings. The "Blonde" beers seemed to be the worst and appeared to me to be the same beer just out of a different tap, well to my tastes anyway.

So I guess to answer you, no I don't think we will revert. My simple reasoning for this is I am constantly converting mates to other styles of beers and I find they stick most of the time. The winner always seems to be the Little Critters which by normal standards is quite a forward hopped beer to Mr Average.

Interesting topic though. I will reading this thread with interest to see the various opinions.

Cheers

Chappo


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## winkle (2/2/10)

I'm guessing the main stream low-carb disaster will go the way of the ice beer trend a while back (and not before time). Fashion wise, Saisons are taking off in popularity right now, and something like a Berliner Weisse is probably overdue for a good run.
But there'll always need to be a place for the hop-heads to go. 
I suspect the future will lie in a very broad spectrum of styles (and cross-over beers will be a big part of it) rather than any specific direction dictated by temporary fashions.


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## Pollux (2/2/10)

If the current trends of megaswill are to be believed, the future is tasteless, aromaless bland crap.

I, like Chappo, have gone through my highly hopped IPA/APA phase and am now starting to move towards other styles like the english bitters and some lagers. That said I am not known for ever really brewing to style, I simply make up a recipe and then decide what style it is closest too once it's all brewed up and being drunk.....


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## Glenn Hargreaves (2/2/10)

like i said i am really interested in finding out what the masses think. When i say masses i am talking about the people on this site who know and appreciate different beers.

What is classed as mega swill will always be there, interested to see where to go for us small craft brewers. I know for sure we will never brew a low carb beer.
I love variety and i think we have that in our beers it is just interesting to see why different styles sell much better than others.

Cheers Glenn


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## chappo1970 (2/2/10)

Glenn Hargreaves said:


> like i said i am really interested in finding out what the masses think. When i say masses i am talking about the people on this site who know and appreciate different beers.
> 
> What is classed as mega swill will always be there, interested to see where to go for us small craft brewers. I know for sure we will never brew a low carb beer.
> I love variety and i think we have that in our beers it is just interesting to see why different styles sell much better than others.
> ...



Glenn,

Ahhh I see where you are coming from. You craft/micro brewers are a great and constant inspiration to me. I am more likely to try to emulate one of your beers these days than what I am any megaswill. If was to put my finger on the pulse I guess I have noticed a lot more AHB brewers having a crack at the British Ales and the Belgians/Germans seem to popular. I guess a good gauge would be to go thru last years "What are you brewing II" thread. 

The beers I love are the off the wall specialties that are produced. Like Dead Guy, Dog Fish Head, Mikellor etc. I would love it if the Aussie Craft brewers were much, much less conservative in their specialties. I can appreciate you need to sell beer to the masses to be viable but at the same time I have been know to buy the odd specialty for over $30 no problems. 

Also purely as a suggestion but if guys like you, Glenn, got a little more involved on the forum and maybe told us of up coming releases we might all have a better chance of supporting your beers. Again only a suggestion.

Cheers

Chappo


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## roger mellie (2/2/10)

Glenn Hargreaves said:


> If you look back about 5-8 years in the wine industry everyone wanted big Barossa reds or big oakey Chard's but now people are looking for light crisp whites and more refined cool climate style reds. Is the brewing industry in its big stage.



Ya reckon?

Only if your name is Tristan.

RM


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## gjhansford (2/2/10)

Glenn Hargreaves said:


> like i said i am really interested in finding out what the masses think. When i say masses i am talking about the people on this site who know and appreciate different beers.



An interesting way to look at this is to do some kind of analysis of the topics that start on the forum and how long they last. Without being too anal about it ... it has been my observation that lately (after Christmas) there been a spate of well supported topics on English milds and low alcohol beers ... it could just be a seasonal thing ... I wasn't on the forum last year ... or it could be a trend.

:icon_cheers: ghhb


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## Screwtop (2/2/10)

Great question Glenn. I think as you point out the mega huge brewery beer drinkers will always follow the lead of the marketing gurus who push beer drinkers buttons and give them all sorts of reasons to buy megaswill beers.

But for us, many are the newly enlightened beer drinkers of Australia, I think the trend will pretty much parallel the beer drinking trends of the USA but some 15 years behind. We have really only just discovered the world of beer in the last 6 - 8 years. As with all change led by the demands of the public the pendulum will swing way past 6 o'clock before eventually returning to a happy medium. Like most here I have sought out the weird and way out extremes when it comes to beer to gain experience. Most of these I have enjoyed, some have been wow beers and some pure magic. However the beers I make for home are pretty hop tame and low ABV, because I want quaffers, big beers and hoppy beers take too long on the tap. For trialling I buy one or two "out there/extreme" beers. It's my belief that all micro's need at least one "out there" beer as an intro or a beer that afficionado's will seek out, one way of getting beers into the marketplace due to requests for the one or two "different" beers they produce. When it comes to beers that I buy regularly in 6'ers they are all pretty much less agressive micro brewed beers.

Hope you find this helpful,

Screwy


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## MHB (2/2/10)

Commercial brewing will I suspect pull in two directions, what is often referred to as "Mega Swill" will in a couple of years be delivered as an overweigh (concentrate) and diluted and carbonated on premises (if you don't thinks that's possible look at this) call it the lowest cost alcohol injection method.

Craft brewing is becoming a more mature industry, one with an exciting future; it should capture about 20% of the market. Within that we should see a huge range of beer from delicate lagers to Hop Monsters that will rodger you rotten.

As a home brewer my answer will be the same then as it is now

"Whatever I Farking Like"

Mark


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## sm0902 (2/2/10)

Not exactly sure on what the future of beer is, but here's my opinion ...

I've been away from my home brew system (All grain) for several weeks now. I am quite sick of drinking; VB, Carlton Draught, XXXX, Heineken, etc, etc. The occasional Fat Yak has been enjoyable, but I am so, so desperate to drink a good Pilsner.

I went looking the other day for an Emerson's to no avail.

About to get my home brewing back under way, with one of my first brews being a Pilsner (ideally with Wyeast 2042)!

Apart from Emerson's. I'm not sure I've found a worthy Pilsner yet.

Anyway, back to drinking my Heineken!


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## Bribie G (2/2/10)

MHB said:


> Commercial brewing will I suspect pull in two directions, what is often referred to as "Mega Swill" will in a couple of years be delivered as an overweigh (concentrate) and diluted and carbonated on premises (if you don't thinks that's possible look at this) – call it the lowest cost alcohol injection method.
> 
> Craft brewing is becoming a more mature industry, one with an exciting future; it should capture about 20% of the market. Within that we should see a huge range of beer from delicate lagers to Hop Monsters that will rodger you rotten.
> 
> ...



Bag in a box beers. Hmm. Wait a minute...........B.I.A.B. 

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


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## DUANNE (2/2/10)

when it comes to craft beers i couldnt tell you what the future holds but when im after a craft beer i am open to trying any style. ithink the key is wether its a ipa a lambic or pilsener it has to be well made and taste good. it sounds to easy to be true doesnt it. some of the craft breweries try to do to many styles and end up with ten beers that taste the same.one of the worst i have found was mt tamborine in qld. tryed the tasting paddle there and was surprised that i couldnt tell the ipa from the belgian ales.instead of having a vast menu of meh beers i think the best is to stick to what you do best and stick to it.every time i go through yg i have an esb and a stout.( oh and a chimay of tap as well.)


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## Effect (2/2/10)

Glenn Hargreaves said:


> Howdy Everyone,
> 
> Simon and i where having a discussion about beer after work the other day and i thought i would put the question to the masses.
> Where is beer going? We seem to be in the grips of a bigger is better attitude at the moment where the bigger the hops or higher the alchohol the better the beer. Are we starting to lose the ability to appreciate and understand the subtleties of different beers.
> ...



I have the same feeling about the direction that beer will go. What is fashionable will always change, but how it changes is interesting. Like your wine industry example, I have noticed another change in a different form of fashion. From working in a hotel with a well skanky bar there, 2 years ago I noticed a change in the clothing the ladies were wearing. They were no longer wearing mini skirts and skimpy eye candy numbers but rather prefering the maxidresses...Completely opposite direction. So in saying that, I reckon the less hoppy, 'milder' ales and lagers will start to get more attention.

Cheers
Phil


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## eric8 (2/2/10)

I have almost finished a keg of a single hop (Motueka) beer and I have loved being able to taste the hop throughout and having it be the only one. I have a Mikkeler single hop beer to try as well. This is a great way to learn about the hops as well I think, was bittered to just over 50 ibu's, so it wasn't over the top.


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## dgilks (2/2/10)

I like my extreme beers but my definition of extreme is different to yours. To me it isn't extreme until you are getting towards 9 or 10% and 100IBU. What I want to see (and think is the future of Australian brewing) is a 6 - 7%, 70 - 80 IBU American IPA with lots of juicy American hop goodness. We need to get away from the mentality that big beers are 5 to 6% ESBs, Stouts and some Belgian types. Bring on the AIPAs and IIPAs.


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## rclemmett (2/2/10)

The most improtant thing for me is beer appropriate to the climate. Seasonal rotation is the key.


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## Thirsty Boy (2/2/10)

I think its a big chunk of pointless shoving your head in the sand to decide that the only reason people in the larger population drink lightly flavoured crisp dry, and dare I say it... fizzy yellow beer, is because they have been lead there by "marketing gurus" - do you really think people are quite that docile and senseless? Because all the high tech mass marketing gurus are obviously the reason that lager beer took off like a rocket in the 1800's when it was first invented - that makes heaps of sense.

Rather it is because those sorts of beers are easy and pleasant to drink - they taste good and are not too overpowering. They are the difference between eating a bowl of marinated olives and feta as a snack and eating a bowl of chips. You might love olives and feta - but I bet you order a bowl of chips more frequently.

There seems to be some confusion about why breweries brew lightly flavoured beer - its not harder to brew more flavoursome beer, its not particularly more expensive. In fact its easier to get away with lower standards when you brew beer with stronger flavours, for the same reason you might see a new homebrewer pumping out drinkable porters but not able to nail pale ales. Faults are less obvious. And alternatives have always been there, decent ones. Its just that what it is hard to do, at least in Australia, is to sell more flavoursome beers on an industrial scale. Doesn't mean brewers stopped making them. Coopers has always been there, Old brown, old black, Abbotsford Double stout - all good, tasty, highly flavoured and comparatively speaking... deeply unpopular beers.

So the big brewery businesses concentrated on the popular beers... what the hell else does anyone expect them to do?? Try to tell their customers that they should be drinking "better" beer even though they don't want to?

Its a fact that smaller breweries could take a little notice of - People _LIKE_ subtly flavoured beers. Try making them one and see. The guys at Mt Goat did and their Steam Beer has gone through the roof. Is it a boring flavourless beer?? No-way!! Its a really nice example of a subtle, well crafted, easy to drink people pleasing beer. They still make big beers, interesting beers and thats great - but they have at least gotten over the arrogant attitude that a lot (certainly not all) of craft brewers seem to display, that the beer the brewer likes, is the beer that their customers "should" like; and made the very ordinary and sensible business decision to actually give them what they want. And as a result they will diversify their customer base considerably, and almost certainly be responsible for introducing more people to the joys of big flavoursome beers than all the stubborn "I'm not making one of _those_ sorts of beers" brewers put together.

I know I appreciate it - I like an IIPA as much as the next guy, but now, from one brewer at least, I can also have the choice of drinking a well made, locally made, craft brewed beer that _isn't_ beating me over the head with the flavour stick till I bleed from the ears.

All I need now is for someone to make a good Kolsch locally and I will be pretty much sorted.


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## gregs (2/2/10)

I see the future of beer in Australia at least, as educating the general public in the appreciation of beer. The wine industry has done this very well in the past and stands out amongst all other alcohol styles as the beverage of connoisseurs. I think beer has as much if not more to offer in the appreciation stakes, as you all are aware. But we are few and the general public Im sure would benefit from our appreciation of the drink.


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## Dazza_devil (2/2/10)

Perhaps the future of beer will be politically dictated. Who know's what future taxes and/or prohabition could do. Even a trend away from the designer drugs of today. 
If we look back at the history of beer perhaps we could gain an idea on what is possible as far as change goes.
The future will always be dictated by what's readily available and what's within the customers budget regardless.
I guess the first ales were full of flavour and it was the accepted norm, particularly before the use of hops with gruit etc.
Mass production appeared to be the killer, why is beyond me. Was it really that hard to mass produce a beer that tasted good?
I would like to think that on the whole the future of beer will develop in a similar way to that of the maturing palate. Perhaps a gradual trend toward more flavoursome brews will allow this to happen. If someone had of given me an IPA or Imperial anything to drink in my weening days It could of possibly turned me off the idea completely.
Beer with real flavour, you gotta be kiddin me.
What shits me is there aren't enough Australian beers to brew 'in style' that are generously hopped or malt driven.


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## Bribie G (2/2/10)

Bloody well put .. plus one Thirsty Boy. :icon_cheers: 

I love UK real ales and am now able to produce them consistently, but as TB well knows my other main thrust in home brewing is to make a Carlton style cold light coloured and flavoured full strength beer that hits the same spot that the Brisbane "Bulimba" draught did in the 1970s. And you know what, when I put a keg on at a birthday party or at Christmas / Oz Day, the punters rave about it. 

Most mainstream Australian beers have a heritage that goes back to the six o'clock swill days when the hard working men (yes men) would pour out of the factories and offices with only an hour to drink before the pub shut. A light bodied but full strength 5% beer that could be slammed back schooner after schooner.


_BribieG overcome with thirst heads for the kegerator and puts mouth over spout and pulls and sucks deeply :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: _


OK that's better..............

Rant: I feel that the Aussie home brew fraternity has been somewhat seduced by the Cascade laden all malt boutique USA model. Look I don't mind the very occasional LCPA style beer but I reckon if every pub in Australia were to suddenly serve only APA Fat Yak JSGA beer then there would be a huge migration to drinking alcopops because the beer has "turned to shit".
Personally I like to sit at the Major Money or Jetsetter pokies at the pub a couple of times a month and slurp a couple of XXXX heavy. It's a good taste reference to what I'm brewing and it's a reliable well brewed product. My first mouthfull I reckon I could brew a lot better, but by the end of the schooner it occurs to me that there are not actually any off flavours, that what flavours there are are actually quite well balanced, and that if I genuinely wanted to brew something identical I would be hard pressed as an amateur brewer. Very hard pressed indeed.


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## glennheinzel (2/2/10)

Referencing the ratings of beers in the AHB recipe database would support the claims that easy drinking ales are a hit. The top 5 are less than 5% ABV and the #1, #3 and #4 beers are English Best/Special Bitters.

1. Dr Smurto Golden Ale clone - English Best/Special Bitter
2. Tony's Little Creatures Bright Ale clone - APA
3. Dr Smurto Timothy Taylor Land Lord clone - English Best/Special Bitter
4. Ross's Nelson Sauvin summer ale - English Best/Special Bitter
5. Doc's Bavarian weizen - German Hefe


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## gregs (2/2/10)

Boagsy said:


> Perhaps the future of beer will be politically dictated. Who know's what future taxes and/or prohabition could do. Even a trend away from the designer drugs of today.
> If we look back at the history of beer perhaps we could gain an idea on what is possible as far as change goes.
> The future will always be dictated by what's readily available and what's within the customers budget regardless.
> I guess the first ales were full of flavour and it was the accepted norm, particularly before the use of hops with gruit etc.
> ...




Remember though that Australia only ever copied the worlds wine and built an enormous industry on that. So much so that the rest of the world have now (copy-write) on there original styles by name. That is quite impressive when you look at how well that industry educated the Australian public on the wine they copied. 

I think there is a similar future for beer although this appears a long way off. Also mass production may well have helped save the future of beer in this country.


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## chappo1970 (2/2/10)

Glenn Hargreaves said:


> like i said i am really interested in finding out what the masses think. When i say masses i am talking about the people on this site who know and appreciate different beers.



TB and BribieG whilst I in part agree with your sentiments on Megaswill I think we are unnescessarily crossing swords here. I didn't see this post as a "Lets bash the Megaswillers again" (yawn) but rather "hey you home brewers what turns your wheels boys?"

Or did I miss something?


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## Dazza_devil (2/2/10)

I just can't drink the beer off the tap at the locals here anymore. I used to drink it till the cows come home and wake up with a pearla of a headache and a fowl taste in my mouth. Perhaps it's not the beer but the way it's being treated by the reatailers. Or perhaps there are additives to preserve it that are ruining the beer as a whole. The most likely reason in my opinion is that my homebrew tastes so good and doesn't give me a hangover.
I'm with you on the mild flavoured session beer BribieG and that is what people have become accustomed too, but I did sit down and drink 11 pints of my OZ Galaxy Pale Ale in one session without becoming overwhelmed with flavour. Session drinking is becoming socially unacceptable(apparently) and the government will be trying to push anti-binge drinking policies in the future. I dont think IIPA or American Stouts, etc were ever meant to be session beers, just an Ale to be enjoyed in moderation over a meal perhaps. Will these drinking trends influence the way beer will be in the future, perhaps. But there will always be the die hard big session and binge drinkers and there will be a place and a drink for them. I guess it's gotta be mass produced because they need a lot more of it.
I wont be rushing out to get my block of Hahn Ice or Tooheys Red with my pension check though. Alcohol afterall is a handy tool for the government as far as taxes and suppression of the proletariat go.


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## scrumpy (2/2/10)

pale ales will become the new lagers...... thats what i see in the future..


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## Pollux (2/2/10)

BribieG said:


> snip....
> 
> Most mainstream Australian beers have a heritage that goes back to the six o'clock swill days when the hard working men (yes men) would pour out of the factories and offices with only an hour to drink before the pub shut. A light bodied but full strength 5% beer that could be slammed back schooner after schooner.
> 
> ......snip



I found this while I was away in Mudgee the other week, while I was in the brewery I would try all the different beers there and think about the flavours and where they had come from, then we walked across the road to the Red Heifer hotel and I noticed amongst the New/VB/CD a tap marked "Red Heifer Lager", ehhh, why not.

It was a simple, clean, non-offensive lager and I will admit it took till the third schooner before my tastebuds adjusted when comparing it to my house beers (generally APAs with an IBU count of 60+), but once that occurred I found it quite tasty and started to really enjoy it.

I think if we can move people away from the dogma of being a "VB man" or a "New man" etc etc and push them towards checking the bank of taps whenever they walk into a new pub for the first time then perhaps that will help the smaller breweries get a decent foothold and also broaden the Aussie beer palate.

Another area where beer could go is the concept of beer and food matching, ala the lunch at Bitter & Twisted and also Fusion Brewing Co craft all their beers with the concept of matching them to a style of food.


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## The Mad Hopper (2/2/10)

In part I think the future of craft beer will be dictated by the success or failure of pubs such as Grumpy's Green, The Local Taphouse, The Royston Hotel, The Fox Hotel and The Lambs Go Bar (there are many more I could mention here). I have heaps of mates that I've convinced to go to a place like this and have something a bit different then their usual 5% lager. They generally start off with something easier to drink like an ESB or an (ordinary!) IPA . The thing is, they almost always love it and they go back for more and start to experiment with different styles: "hey what about this imperial stout, I wonder what that tastes like". These are guys who have no interest in brewing beer (I've tried to convince them!) but they start to enjoy variety in their beer regardless. I think that if we can support pubs like these then we'll slowly convince the majority to try something different.

I remember a few months ago I went to a local craft brewery that I knew brewed 2 or 3 decent beers. When I walked in I found that they actually had close to 10 beers that I never even knew they brewed, and some of them were bloody fantastic (and unfortunately only on tap!). The name of that brewery: Hargreaves Hill. I would think that if you wanted to gain a wider market for your beer a great idea would be to open a pub in Melbourne and stock the same beers that you can buy at Dan's. But at the same time you could also have taps pouring your more experimental batches (I loved that scotch ale you had!) and see what people are trying and buying. Your place up in Yarra Glen is fantastic, I just think that it doesn't get the same exposure that a place in the city would. Finance wise this is probably a heavy investment, but the great thing about being "some guy on a forum" is that I don't need to worry about things like that!  

When it comes to beer styles, who really knows. Personally I love beers with a complex maltiness to them. One of my mates loves stouts. Another prefers lagers and pilseners ... each to their own, I'm just happy for the choice!


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## The Mad Hopper (2/2/10)

Pollux said:


> I think if we can move people away from the dogma of being a "VB man" or a "New man" etc etc and push them towards checking the bank of taps whenever they walk into a new pub for the first time then perhaps that will help the smaller breweries get a decent foothold and also broaden the Aussie beer palate.



That's exactly how I drink: walk into a pub and order the beer that I've never heard of.


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## petesbrew (2/2/10)

Well the low carbs seem to be here to stay for a while, so it'd be good to see some breweries add some actual FLAVOUR to them.
No I'm not trying to start a "it's not the carbs, it's the alcohol" off topic tangent - just stating it's a trend/bandwagon/moneyspinner, so why not?

Same goes for Low alcohol beers. I had a Rogers for the first time last week and it was bloody nice (Cheers Eric8!). Yeah ok, it's more of a midstrength than light, but you get my drift. Something nice and hoppy.


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## PostModern (2/2/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I think its a big chunk of pointless shoving your head in the sand to decide that the only reason people in the larger population drink lightly flavoured crisp dry, and dare I say it... fizzy yellow beer, is because they have been lead there by "marketing gurus" - do you really think people are quite that docile and senseless? Because all the high tech mass marketing gurus are obviously the reason that lager beer took off like a rocket in the 1800's when it was first invented - that makes heaps of sense.



Well we all know that you and I are too smart to fall for advertising, yet the big breweries spend tens of millions a year on advertising their pleasantly tasteless fizzy yellow swill. Someone must be listening, or they wouldn't do it.

Yes, like white bread, bland beer is the biggest seller, but like you I have come across some really nice balanced craft brews, unlike the unbalanced sweet shit coming from CUB. 

I think the future of beer will see the craft/micro market stay fairly small. Extreme beers will be there, but in small volume for extreme palates. Would be nice to see local breweries take over the mega's but in reality, the barriers to entry to the market are too massive. Only a Coca Cola scale organisation can attempt it, and look at the label they bought!!


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## jbowers (2/2/10)

If this was America, this would be a valid debate.

The fact of the matter is, there isn't a single commercial brewer here making a IIPA which is anywhere near the middle, let alone the higher end of the scale in terms of IBUs or ABV.

There is no danger of Australia becoming overrun with 'big beers' any time soon. It might seem like it within a beer-centric community, because that's what a lot of us enjoy drinking and talking about. But the majority of people who are interested in well crafted beers are opting for things like little creatures, fat yak, knappstein lager etc. All very moderate, well balanced and highly drinkable beers.

I think the future of Australian beers, atleast in the next few years, is to push a few boundaries and take a few risks. Or atleast I hope so.


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## bum (2/2/10)

jbowers said:


> If this was America, this would be a valid debate.



What?


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## jbowers (2/2/10)

bum said:


> What?



Perhaps I made too strong a comment but -

'We seem to be in the grips of a bigger is better attitude at the moment where the bigger the hops or higher the alchohol the better the beer.'

From what I can see, when applied to current Australian brewing, that doesnt seem to really apply. Atleast not from where I'm sitting?

Edit: Perhaps I should summarise more concisely what I was trying to get across. I don't think Australia is in any imminent danger of having an influx of over the top, hopped up or high ABV beers any time soon.


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## PostModern (2/2/10)

I think you're right jbowers. There is an awesome IPA at my local brewery tho. 7% and about 80IBU with tons of finishing hops. Unfortunately, it's been backed off a little due to *sigh* excise.


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## jbowers (2/2/10)

PostModern said:


> I think you're right jbowers. There is an awesome IPA at my local brewery tho. 7% and about 80IBU with tons of finishing hops. Unfortunately, it's been backed off a little due to *sigh* excise.



Sounds awesome man. What brewery is that?

And the excise thing... so frustrating.

With the new laws though, they could bump it back up to 6.9% and still stay in the same tax bracket, apparently


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## Yikes (3/2/10)

If the aussie beer industry follows the wine industry wont we just find that we have wall to wall beers that we will really never know the subtle differences between because we could never taste them all. I was thinking today that a six pack of beers with different hops used in each would be fun. Find out the taste of each hop. You probably would have a hard time selling this one. Im just being lazy and dont want to do this for myself i guess.


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

I think the problem that we have with beer trends and supply and demand sculpturing the market is this,
There are a lot of people out there that drink beer but a small percentage of them know anything about it or have the interest nor the time to do so.
Most people have such busy lifestyles they are just happy to drink what is put in front of them and pleased to have a drink no matter what it is, even if the first few sips or glasses are a little hard to put down, just give me what he's drinking. The problem lies in that these people are the majority and always will be and also the ones that will control the market. 
I doubt if the beer and wine market will have any trends in common, they are mostly two different cultures and drinking regimes. Twenty bucks for one bottle, and that's a cheap one, puts a social barrier on the wine market. I remember the box-monster days and they weren't pleasant. Beer has always been the working man's drink, negating the rum days. Just like marijuana is the poor man's cocaine.


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## Glenn Hargreaves (3/2/10)

WOW , i go to bed then wake up to see if any one else has commented on this topic and there is 3 pages to read.

Some really good points made from a lot of different people, some i agree with some maybe not as much, but the main thing is that people are thinking about this and discussing it. 
If i had all the answer i would be rich but i don't.
Few main points : Brew a IIPA, Good Kolsch, English Mild and Good Pilsner.


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## Glenn Hargreaves (3/2/10)

WOW , i go to bed then wake up to see if any one else has commented on this topic and there is 3 pages to read.

Some really good points made from a lot of different people, some i agree with some maybe not as much, but the main thing is that people are thinking about this and discussing it. 
If i had all the answer i would be rich but i don't.
Few main points : Brew a IIPA, Good Kolsch, English Mild and Good Pilsner.


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## Glenn Hargreaves (3/2/10)

OOps, can brew beer but not use computers

Other points ; Make the beers you do good. No point having 10 beers if only a couple are any good and make them different enough
Try and make specialties more available, we have been trying as we released a Keller Bier on Australia Day at about 6 pubs in Melbourne, Maybe look at bottling specialties.
Check this website more and ask questions
Drink more beer - This was just my idea

Cheers 
Glenn


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

It would be nice to come up with something that is original and Australian. You gotta start somewhere.


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## Glenn Hargreaves (3/2/10)

The hard thing is what is australian and how to define it.

All Australian ingredients and Hops?

Australian Lager?

As it is there seems to be alot of styles that have similar profiles and guidelines.


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

I'de say that if it's made in Australia from Australian ingredients and not a clone or a copy of another style but a new style of it's own.
Redefine in a way. The old Aussie beers were only clones of English Ales and they have come from there but look what America has done with it.


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## The Mad Hopper (3/2/10)

Glenn Hargreaves said:


> Other points ; Make the beers you do good. No point having 10 beers if only a couple are any good and make them different enough
> Try and make specialties more available, we have been trying as we released a Keller Bier on Australia Day at about 6 pubs in Melbourne, Maybe



I tried this last weekend at The Local Taphouse in St Kilda. Personally I thought the bitterness stood out a bit too much. The beer had this great and quite subtle honey-like sweetness to it, but before I could enjoy that the bittering came through.

Don't get me wrong, I still liked the beer. I just think this is one of those times where less bitterness is good in a beer.

Good work on getting the beers out there though!


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

I think to truely give a beer a good appraisel you have to try it with different foods, differing amounts, differing temperatures, differing thirst levels etc. There are so many variables that can make a beer taste good.


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## Thirsty Boy (3/2/10)

PostModern said:


> Well we all know that you and I are too smart to fall for advertising, yet the big breweries spend tens of millions a year on advertising their pleasantly tasteless fizzy yellow swill. Someone must be listening, or they wouldn't do it.
> 
> Yes, like white bread, bland beer is the biggest seller, but like you I have come across some really nice balanced craft brews, unlike the unbalanced sweet shit coming from CUB.
> 
> I think the future of beer will see the craft/micro market stay fairly small. Extreme beers will be there, but in small volume for extreme palates. Would be nice to see local breweries take over the mega's but in reality, the barriers to entry to the market are too massive. Only a Coca Cola scale organisation can attempt it, and look at the label they bought!!



The big breweries don't spend millions of dollars advertising to get you to drink fizzy yellow beer, they spend all that cash to get you to drink _their_ fizzy yellow beer. And when they do spend money trying to plug a more flavoursome beer... it seldom works. VB original might not have been an earth shaking beer, but it wasn't all bad - plenty of marketing dollars... flop. Remember Tooheys blue and Fosters Special Bitter - both particularly good efforts at making a decent tasting light beer, both pushed by stacks of marketing - both gone. Replaced by (at least the Fosters brand) Fosters Light Ice and nowadays Cascade Light both of which have nothing like the flavour.

Thats the point I was trying to make - not a defense of the mega brewers, they don't need defending, they can just hide behind the piles of money they make - But simply to point out that they made those piles of money by noticing that in Australia people gravitate towards lightly flavoured beers; and giving it to them in spades. Like it or lump it, breweries are not just about making beer, they are about selling beer too and if a small brewer wants to know what direction to go in - well I think not having a mildly flavoured, light coloured, easy drinking beer in the range is simply commercial suicide in the Australian market.

I don't for a second think they should make a version of New/VB/XXXX - but that doesn't mean they couldn't have a great Dortmunder or Cream Ale or American Wheat or Pilsner or Helles or whatever in the range. Tick all the boxes that the mega swill ticks for the average drinker.... and still make it great beer. I'd certainly drink it.

TB

PS - Disclosure. I think most people are aware, but just to make sure. I am an award level employee of CUB in Melbourne and spend my days helping to make a hell of a lot of the bland yellow fizzy beer that most people on this site think is such rubbish.


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## WSC (3/2/10)

> PS - Disclosure. I think most people are aware, but just to make sure. I am an award level employee of CUB in Melbourne and spend my days helping to make a hell of a lot of the bland yellow fizzy beer that most people on this site think is such rubbish.



I was waiting for the disclaimer  

Here are my thoughts, not sure about trends but here is where I think there are opportunities:

*Barrel/Oak Aged Beers* - for the collector in us
*Variety* - Many and varied releases, once a month once every 2 months. There are not enough seasonals with cult following in Australia. Give me something to look forward to each month and I will spend $10 - $20 a bottle for it.
*Make the beer experience more like wine* - Styles suited to food, glassware, social aspects - wine drinkers and dinner party thowers look for different ways to impress and have cash to spend. 
*Balance and Complexity* - make a version of an aussie beer if you want but with a twist in there, so when you taste it it is famililar but different and makes you want to have another sip. Don't rely on one ingredient too much. I find alot of beers, what I brew included, that are a bit too reliant on either hops or malt. I think we need to make beers more interesting, break a few rules but keep it balanced.

My thoughts.
Cheers and good luck.


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## chappo1970 (3/2/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> TB
> PS - Disclosure. I think most people are aware, but just to make sure. I am an award level employee of CUB in Melbourne and spend my days helping to make a hell of a lot of the bland yellow fizzy beer that most people on this site think is such rubbish.



Ahhh! So your the one to blame then? :lol: Wher's my pitch fork and flaming torch honey, there be a lynching in the village? 

TB your input is always welcome in my books mate. I agree with completely your opinion. And on a side note I am truely over the Megaswill bashing and raging debates. What I have seen and observed from my mates drinking habits is that is it very simular to the age old "Ford man" vs "Holden man". My mates from time to time swollow the marketing hype of Ice beers, Blonde beers and now Low Carb beers BUT they always revert back to their staple beer. That being one of the major brand offerings like XXXX, Tooheys New, Carlton Draught etc etc.

IMO there is, however, room for both Mega and Craft within the market place. Albeit that the roost is ruled by the massive powerhouse breweries and their loyal beer drinkers but lets take Little Creatures success and Fat Yak release for example it's obvious to me that there is a decent sized segment of the market out there that is viable and profitable. Also take in account the purchase of Gage Road by a Mega Brewery and it says to me even the big guys are seeing a change, a shift if you will away from the traditional offerings and want a part of the action. Now i am not privvy to the vital statistics but it would be interesting to see the percentages on what the market break up is Mega:Craft, would it not? And how has that changes over the last say 10 years?

But Glenn was asking what "Us" home brewers would like to see from a Craft Brewer not what the mega super dooper Brewers should be brewing because there is no way knowing that they would commit commercial suicide to their stockholders and turn their back on their respective market. Why would they listen to 0.001% of the market for crying out loud? End of debate!



WSC said:


> *Barrel/Oak Aged Beers* - for the collector in us
> *Variety* - Many and varied releases, once a month once every 2 months. There are not enough seasonals with cult following in Australia. Give me something to look forward to each month and I will spend $10 - $20 a bottle for it.



WSC I agree with these 2 points and if I was in a marketing sample group this would be my response to them.


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## jbowers (3/2/10)

Glenn Hargreaves said:


> WOW , i go to bed then wake up to see if any one else has commented on this topic and there is 3 pages to read.
> 
> Some really good points made from a lot of different people, some i agree with some maybe not as much, but the main thing is that people are thinking about this and discussing it.
> If i had all the answer i would be rich but i don't.
> Few main points : Brew a IIPA, Good Kolsch, English Mild and Good Pilsner.



I tried your Kellerbier yesterday Glenn - having never had a beer in that style before, it seemed to match the beeradvocate style description very well. A nice sharp, hoppy nose. Plenty of initial smoothness followed by a drying hoppiness. Really great, was one of only 2 beers I had on the tasting paddle that I got another of afterwards.

Back to this whole discussion, I think the crux of it is just that beer enthusiasts here just want to see really good examples of styles here that are rarely/never produced in this country. I would prefer to drink a local beer than fork out money, a great deal of which is paying for shipping costs, to buy beers from Great Divide, Southern Tier, Lagunitas etc.


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## Fourstar (3/2/10)

Glenn Hargreaves said:


> What is classed as mega swill will always be there, interested to see where to go for us small craft brewers. I know for sure we will never brew a low carb beer.



You can always brew an American Blonde and play on the 'style/descriptor' thats used by low-carbers. Stick with what the masses know and best of all brewed by a micro. An American Blonde is quite a flavoursome light ale, think a dumbed down APA on the hop side and simple malt bill. 
90% Pale/pils
5% Wheat
5% Vienna/Munich (this might even be OTT) 

Can be adapted as an English summer ale with UK hops or do something different and use kolsch yeast or cal lager yeast.




Thirsty Boy said:


> Its a fact that smaller breweries could take a little notice of - People _LIKE_ subtly flavoured beers. Try making them one and see. The guys at Mt Goat did and their Steam Beer has gone through the roof. Is it a boring flavourless beer?? No-way!! Its a really nice example of a subtle, well crafted, easy to drink people pleasing beer. They still make big beers, interesting beers and thats great - but they have at least gotten over the arrogant attitude that a lot (certainly not all) of craft brewers seem to display, that the beer the brewer likes, is the beer that their customers "should" like; and made the very ordinary and sensible business decision to actually give them what they want. And as a result they will diversify their customer base considerably, and almost certainly be responsible for introducing more people to the joys of big flavoursome beers than all the stubborn "I'm not making one of _those_ sorts of beers" brewers put together.



I couldnt agree more. If i was starting a micro, this would be the FIRST beer i release, then the 'flavoursome styles' come second. You want to get people picking up your product, enjoying it and then spreading the great news via word of mouth. Unfortuantly forcing hoppy APA's down the throat of customers who are not tolerant/accepting of high IBU beers is not a quick route for sucess! 

Give the masses what they want and the next time they think about picking up that 6'er of micro 'swill', they may just look at the IPA sitting next to it and think "well this light beer was great, i wonder how good this is?". There is always going to be enough of the beer geeks like ourselves around to pick up the minor styles and keep them moving.

The one thing i find that is really silly with the craft brewing industry is the 'apple corporation' tactics that are usually employed. I'll give you a product *we *want you to use and tell *you *how to use it. If there is something lacking that the customer wants, bahhh you dont want that! Unfortuantly it not what majority of customers in the market actually want and business can flounder because of it.



Glenn Hargreaves said:


> The hard thing is what is australian and how to define it.
> All Australian ingredients and Hops?
> Australian Lager?
> As it is there seems to be alot of styles that have similar profiles and guidelines.



I had a bit of a discussion in the carpool home from BJCP training lastnight about how 'narrow' the Aussie Pale Ale category is. Basically, if it aint made with coopers yeast, it's pretty much a failure. How long until we see this category evolve or a modern day spin-off take the reigns in the marketplace to coin a modern day style? 

Bridge Road Brewers have their Aussie Ale and MG have their Steam. We need more micros brewing these styles to start knocking the Lion Nathan and CUB taps off at our locals. I love my Aussie Blonde (which i call a Aussie Pale Ale). Its unobtrusive, an awesome quaffer, has hop character and appeals to the masses as well as the beer geek like myself.

You cant get much simpler and more enjoyable than a beer like this on a warm summers day or even a cold afternoon in the pub watching the footy.





Aussie Pale 'Clean' Ale 
Australian Pale Ale 

Type: All Grain
Date: 27/09/2009 
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Brewer: Braden 
Boil Size: 30.90 L
Boil Time: 60 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.0 

Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.00 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (1.7 SRM) Grain 80.0 % 
0.50 kg Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 10.0 % 
0.50 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (8.9 SRM) Grain 10.0 % 
20.00 gm Super pride [15.10%] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 38.4 IBU 
30.00 gm Super pride [15.10%] (0 min) Hops - 
2.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
6.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.5 %
Bitterness: 38.4 IBU 
Est Color: 4.2 SRM

Mash Profile 
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 14.00 L of water at 69.7 C 64.0 C 60 min 
Mash Out Add 10.00 L of water at 97.7 C 77.0 C 10 min 

Notes
CaCl into mash.
CaSO4 into boil.


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## dgilks (3/2/10)

jbowers said:


> Back to this whole discussion, I think the crux of it is just that beer enthusiasts here just want to see really good examples of styles here that are rarely/never produced in this country. I would prefer to drink a local beer than fork out money, a great deal of which is paying for shipping costs, to buy beers from Great Divide, Southern Tier, Lagunitas etc.



You've hit the nail on the head right there. I would rather see great local beers. If a local brewery made a decent beer in the vein of Great Divide Hercules, Stone Ruination or RR Pliny the Elder, I would be all over it. So what if it costs $5 or 6 a bottle, it is still going to be better value and fresher than the import. I know some of our brewers are pushing the boundaries and doing some experimental/out of the Australian mainstream styles (Brendan at Feral, Richard at the Wig and Pen, Ben at Bridge Road) but hopefully we will see some more action on this front.


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## Bribie G (3/2/10)

We are very shortly going to have another major player in the Aussie mass beer market with Bluetongue opening on the NSW Central Coast. If they make their major draught offering the current Bluetongue lager then they could be on to a winner. I reckon it's not a bad drop compared to XXXX or Carlton, has a light pleasant body and some hop presence. However they'll probably bland it to death or worse, make a Miller variant their main tap brew.


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## PostModern (3/2/10)

jbowers said:


> Sounds awesome man. What brewery is that?
> 
> And the excise thing... so frustrating.
> 
> With the new laws though, they could bump it back up to 6.9% and still stay in the same tax bracket, apparently



The brewery is the 5 Islands in Wollongong. AG and Scotty are pumping out some great beers from there these days! A good accessible pale but interesting Dapto Draught, an American Amber, a superb Hefe (summer special), wit, porter, APA and IPA. That is a fair variety for a brewery in little old Wollongong. Interestingly, no Pilsner at the moment.



Thirsty Boy said:


> The big breweries don't spend millions of dollars advertising to get you to drink fizzy yellow beer, they spend all that cash to get you to drink _their_ fizzy yellow beer. And when they do spend money trying to plug a more flavoursome beer... it seldom works. VB original might not have been an earth shaking beer, but it wasn't all bad - plenty of marketing dollars... flop. Remember Tooheys blue and Fosters Special Bitter - both particularly good efforts at making a decent tasting light beer, both pushed by stacks of marketing - both gone. Replaced by (at least the Fosters brand) Fosters Light Ice and nowadays Cascade Light both of which have nothing like the flavour.



Absolutely. The masses will always want sweet unbalanced unflavoured crap to deliver their dose of ethanol. I understand your point a little better now. Seems that, as I said before, blandness is what the people want, but I think I have always tried to put the blame on the breweries for supplying it and marketing it - supply creating its own demand, or rather the lack of alternatives on the market keeping people ignorant of different styles.

Mega breweries can keep that market, as far as I'm concerned. Unless you want to set up a regional sized brewery making enough swill for the mass market, the effort is not worthwhile, imho. No matter how good your microbrewed Dortmunder or Koelsch, it ain't VoiBoi and will likely cost two to four times as much, so you won't be selling cases of it from the supermarket or Dan's. Price and economies of scale are the reasons craft beer will always be a tiny percentage of the market.


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## pmolou (3/2/10)

When I got o pre-drinks etc. I'll admit I'll usually buy what ever is cheap but when and when at the pub I'll try different micro-brews standard pale ales etc...
But when I go to purvis or slow beer to buy a craft beer I will always look for one that will be more of an experience and possibly inspire me to brew something of my own whether its a huge Imperial Stout, a Single-Hop beer, or just an English Mild I feel there has to be that something special about it which separates it; for instance people buy Timothy Taylor For its amazing Styrian Hop Aroma, Or Emersons to taste NZ hops, Cantillon to see what a sour beer tastes like (probably not the best examples but can't think of any atm)...

Overall I think there just has to be some type of signature to whatever style or beer you brew that makes people intrigued to try it at least once... I think breweries experimenting with different ingredients and yeasts etc is more exciting than "styles", and at least intrigues me to taste that beer (and spend big dollars on a single bottle). That's just me though  

As for the future I'm thinking subtle well balanced Belgian Pale Ales, Lambics and Hybridized Beers with unorthodox techniques and ingredients...

experimentation no matter what field its in, Architecture, Food, Electronics is always exciting and "new"

my 2 cents


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## HoppingMad (3/2/10)

The future of beer?

*Macro Breweries:*

- Creating beers that appeal to the next generation of beer drinkers. (Yours and your friends kids are their next profits)
- More attempts to crack the code that has eluded them for decades - getting more female drinkers to appreciate beer. It's slowly happening.
- The result of the above means more subtle beers, fruity inoffensive flavourings and unfortunately for beer officionados like us - lots more blandness.
- More seasonal releases as big breweries recognise that mainstream drinkers always appreciate something new. (ie. like Cascade already do)

*Micro Breweries:*

- More experimentation, and a move away from American Big Flavour Beers and Hops
- More widespread dabbling with New Zealand hop varieties and other flavours as new hop strains are developed
- Introduction of more unusual ingredients, herbs, grains, and fruits as micros struggle to differentiate themselves from the pack
- More breweries marketing and positioning themselves like winemakers already do - bringing more of the mainstream into the appreciation of craft beer.

*The consequence of both?:*

- Big brewers may see some but not all of their profits begin to be eroded by smaller brewers in some locations. 
- This will mean that big brewers will start creating their own 'quasi-micros' to compete directly. This is already happening in the US. Watch 'Beer Wars' and you'll see.
- You will see more micros being sold into large breweries when they reach bigger distribution, and a few more spinoffs of the ilk of James Squire and Matilda Bay.

Hopper.


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## devo (3/2/10)

_ What Is The Future Of Beer?_


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## WSC (3/2/10)

Great idea, converting a toilet for brewing...Add mesh at the bottom, pour in grain and flush sparge, just need to heat the cistern.......every house has one or two.


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

Fourstar said:


> I had a bit of a discussion in the carpool home from BJCP training lastnight about how 'narrow' the Aussie Pale Ale category is. Basically, if it aint made with coopers yeast, it's pretty much a failure.



That's where I reckon Australian beer has a lot of space for growth. Our lagers aren't too bad. For instance, our Boags Premium Lager has won many awards (if we are gonna polish medals), worldwide. No affiliation by the way.
It's our Ales, our Ales need more depth.
Isn't it possible for something to evolve from the depths of the homebrewers backyard laboratory that is truely Australian and unique with some amount of tradition involved?


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## Scruffy (3/2/10)

Many (many) years ago I joined a group of TVR enthusiasts on a small but growing forum called Pistonheads - we would wax lyrical about the good old days, and the exciting new developments at the TVR factory and their race team, we all met up at racetracks around the UK for track days and general piss-ups (hotel included). As the site expanded (although i prefer the word diluted!), TVR became slightly derided and scoffed at by newer members wanting to sing the praises of their Ferrari/Porsche/Lambo, we attracted members with all kinds of weird and exclusive marques - we still enjoyed the exclusivity and aloofness, and maintained the track days and the beer drinking - almost became a sort of Freemasons club. Then the trouble started, the riff-raff joined, with their version of 'sports' car. A Honda Civic, a Supra, a Clio - even bloody Volvo! - suddenly every 'Blonde' driver and his (fat) wife were on... it was like watching a shit fight at your local (Aussie) pub (OK, maybe in a pub in Caboulture...), what I'm trying to say is you can't fight the opinion of the great unwashed (and that's not just the English). All an honest hardworking Aussie wants to do when he's finished his toil is sit on his front deck, quench his thirst with something cold and shoot cats*. 
I think it's our duty and our task as renegade fighters of the resistance to uphold the traditions and heritage of our various ancestors, before 1800 the UK drank dark beers mostly up to 1100 OG, then in the late 1800's came the IPA style - lighter, more bitter (late hopping came later, still 65-110IBU), but still much stronger than today (7-10%), then with refrigeration came the lagers. The bland cold beers we drink today in Oz are brewed to be exactly that, a cold ethanol injection - they've still got traditional ingredients (drink one at 10C!), so I can't see that changing, as most people wouldn't know what/how/where a different or new beer could possibly occur. Plus people don't like change. People are prone to peer pressure. People are a bit like sheep. Look at the wine industry - for years, Aussies made wine and then some upstart comes along with his 'new French style', as soon as the French accepted it, every f*cker wanted to make the French style... I'm gagging for a Rioja style - can I get it here - can I buggery... but hey ...
We will always be in a minority, but a minority worth listening to - I can't tell you what the future holds for beer (or I'd be rich), but I sure want to be part of its development.
Cheers.

*...or not.

...maybe we could all sit along old oak benches being drip fed a saline/ethanol solution whilst a screen plays a stream of frosty beverage images, boobs and footy and every minute a small nozzle 3 inches from your face releases a mist of isohop.


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

For the brewer wishing to market his product, perhaps the following may be worthwhile contemplating.
What's your main motivation to do so?
To make money, the more the better and sell as much of it as you can?
To please the beer connoissuer, selling to a limited clientele but a very discerning and challenging one?
Because you enjoy making it and having others enjoy drinking it?
What other reasons are there?

I tend to look at the Tasmanian brewer that produces Moo Brew. To me I am yet to sample a better beer from Australia that comes anywhere near his brews in all aspects of the drink and I've been around and used to sell the stuff. I can tell you that the dood isn't doing it for the money, nor did he need to when he began selling wines either. Perhaps he's a genius, perhaps he has a passion to do what he does. Whatever it is I reckon that year by year his sales will increase and because of one reason. He produces beer of the finest quality without the need for any advertising gimmicks.


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## superdave (3/2/10)

I think our opinions of beer will be slightly skewed. As much as we want to leave our heads in the sand and hope that the majority will be converted to enjoying a drop of fine flavoursome beer, the reality, as pointed out by Thirsty Boy and BribieG, is that there will always be a large market for what already exists. I hope to god that the low carb fad dies like all the other fads, but I think everything will continue business as usual. There might be slight tweaks such as dropping the alcohol content due to excise changes, but otherwise it'll all be in the same vain.

Being a hot country the best suited beer style is something with soft flavours that can drunk easily after a hard day working or on the weekend after mowing the grass in the sun; or to watch the footy/cricket in stadiums that are uncovered. Think of the major breweries as Toyota, gets the job done, doesn't cost a whole lot, can be relied upon but there will always be people who want something else.

And as for an Australia beer style, I think we already have one; XXXX, VB, etc.


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## gjhansford (3/2/10)

IMHO I think we're forgotten one of the main reasons the low alcohol light lagers are now the norm in Australia ...

... the success of the 'Don't Drink and Drive" campaign!

With my miniscule 20l home brewery open every Friday night I see first hand my guests ask the ABV of my beers and then work out in their heads how many they can drink and how fast they can drink them. And quess what ... the next time they come they bring a designated driver and go for it!

They also want to know the size of the serve ... and to meet their needs for trying all of my beers I've had to find a couple of dozen smaller 'taster' glasses.

So the way I see it ... most drinkers at pubs and restaurants arn't there to get pissed and they are well aware of the implications of drinking too much. So the low alcohol and 'low carb' beers allow them to ... "stay a little longer". It's not about the malt, the hops or the mouthfeel. It's about the ABV.

It just so happens that it's pretty hard to make a low ABV beer that has flavour, aroma and mouthfeel ... and is not a dark English mild.

2c worth ...

Time for a beer!


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

superdave said:


> Being a hot country the best suited beer style is something with soft flavours that can drunk easily



That's why that Mexican beer is so good.

I fail to see why it has to taste like shit so you can slam it down.


As for VB and XXXX, if they are iconic Australian Beer styles I'm ashamed to be an Ozzie.
Perhaps we should say that XXXX is Queensland beer style and VB Victorian but please don't speak for the rest of us.


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## WSC (3/2/10)

The OP was what we all thought about what we would buy as people who know and understand beer not what we think the masses will buy.


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

Glenn Hargreaves said:


> Just some things to discuss and let us know what the general feeling is, or give us some advice and we might brew a style you suggested.



Well at least he knows what some of us wouldn't drink.
I think most posts are OT as far as a general feeling goes and there is something to be taken from them for the OP.


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## beerDingo (3/2/10)

Boagsy said:


> He produces beer of the finest quality without the need for any advertising gimmicks.



I like their beer, but the dark bottle (and shape) seem to be quite "gimicky" to me. Not bagging it. Just that he is putting it in a different bottle to distinguish it from the rest, so I kinda disagree with you. It seems to be trying to look "classy" to me. But I do agree that they are beers of the finest quality.

Kind of agree that a simple quaffer would be good. But another person said that why would you buy a $70+ slab when you can get one for $40? That is kinda the killer here. I've heard from one bottle shop owner that since Goat have removed pale ale and replaced it with the steam ale, that (at his shop) sales have plummeted. Not sure if this is the same across the board though.

I would also most probably seek out specialty beers, such as "first harvest" styles, or whatever. But, most of all I want a TASTY light beer! Something I can take to a BBQ, drink a bunch and still be able to legaly drive home, without feeling like I've just drank a whole bunch of bad flavored soda water!


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## mje1980 (3/2/10)

Not sure, but i think ( can't believe this! ) the low carb beers are much easier to drink than the usual beers the big boys bring out. Still nothing on a great craft beer, or home made beer though. 

Craft beer?? I think it'll go in a cycle, the boutique breweries will get too popular, so a lot will be bought out by the big boys, and the beers will become ordinary, but hopefully some will stick around and keep making great beers. 

Either way its looking good for beer i think.


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## Snow (3/2/10)

Glenn Hargreaves said:


> Few main points : Brew a IIPA, Good Kolsch, English Mild and Good Pilsner.



I like your thinking here Glenn. Something for everyone - a hop monster, thirst quenchers, a driving beer. Add a seasonal specialty every 3-6 months and you've got a stable you can conceiveably work with to make consistently good beer. just don't put off the average punter and go too "boutique" like Red Oak or Moorilla. Don't get me wrong - I love their beers and their restaurants, but they are aiming for a certain target market (and hitting it well). I'd like to see a well made Kolsch or a raspberry porter available for a decent price at Dan Murphys. 

Cheers - Snow.


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

beerDingo said:


> I like their beer, but the dark bottle (and shape) seem to be quite "gimicky" to me. Not bagging it. Just that he is putting it in a different bottle to distinguish it from the rest, so I kinda disagree with you. It seems to be trying to look "classy" to me. But I do agree that they are beers of the finest quality.
> 
> _*Funny you should mention that, the bottles is the one thing I would change. I thought they looked pretty cool so I kept a few to put my brew in. They look fantastic but they don't pour very well for homebrew if you have any sediment in the bottom, very hard to decant so I don't use them anymore. I do think it's a good idea to have a unique bottle for your product though*._
> 
> ...


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## warrenlw63 (3/2/10)

I subscribe to the KISS theory. People over-intellectualising over beer should cross genres to wine and be done with it.  

For me it's all about beer being the drink of the working class... Best enjoyed with people that matter and the conversation being partially about beer and the rest about life in general.

Importantly it should be made for what the people want. Whether it's for millions of brand-loyal consumers or your own small, insular demographic it's all beer in different forms. It all has a right to be on a shelf or fridge.

Drink what you want, make what you want without choice being forced upon you which it rarely is.

Warren -


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## jbowers (3/2/10)

HoppingMad said:


> - More experimentation, and a move away from American Big Flavour Beers and Hops



Couldn't we atleast have some time where we actually make some 'american big flavour beers'...?


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## dgilks (3/2/10)

jbowers said:


> Couldn't we atleast have some time where we actually make some 'american big flavour beers'...?



That's what I thought when I read that post. We have some brewers that claim to do but only 1 or 2 that actually do it.


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

Subliminal Advertising. It's rife.

'You can fool some of the people some of the time,
But you cant fool all the people all of the time'
Robert Marley


I think all the people want all of the time is a choice.


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## bum (3/2/10)

Nope. Devo were right.


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

bum said:


> Nope. Devo were right.




Off the freedom of choice album?


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## bum (3/2/10)

That very song.


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## Dazza_devil (3/2/10)

bum said:


> That very song.




Please enlighten us Bum, I'm not familiar with the words.


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## bum (3/2/10)

Basically the gist is that we're controlled by fashion rather than need or want. Sorry for the massive derail. Not entirely off topic though. The future of beer is near unknowable the further you look into the future. Even as little as 10 years from now in the mega-swill market is pretty hard to pin down. Near impossible to even guess for the much more fickle craftbeer market. Why? The answer relies on not yet established trends.


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## Curry (3/2/10)

Whilst I tend think along the lines of Belgian Beers and that is a big beer doesn't really start until you get above 8%, however I realise this will never happen in this country. Combined with what looks like more tax coming for high percentage beers (thanks Kevin), i.e. above that 'Australian mythical' number of 5%, I believe we will see the Craft Brewers form two lines of beers. What I mean is that Craft Brewers will have to produce a couple of very drinkable beers at or below 5% to remain viable BUT I hope they continue to offer us big beers whether permanently or seasonally thus differentiating themselves from the megaswill corporations.

Personally I believe we are at the height of the hoppy beers time in the sun and I suspect that we will move towards a more malty brewing phase.

Glenn, you asked me/us what you should be brewing. My answer is in two parts based on my spiel above, firstly for a more mainstream beer I reckon a nice German Weisse is the go. However I would love to see you make a big beer that hasn't really been seen over here before, maybe a triple IPA like the 'Pliny the Younger' from the Russian River Brewing Co.

Good luck and keep up the good work.

Cheers


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## Fourstar (3/2/10)

Boagsy said:


> Subliminal Advertising. It's rife.
> 'You can fool some of the people some of the time,
> But you cant fool all the people all of the time'
> Robert Marley
> I think all the people want all of the time is a choice.



Fool me once, shame on? :unsure: Shame on you.... Fool me, you can't get fooled again! :blink: 
George W. Bush

:lol:


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## HoppingMad (3/2/10)

dgilks said:


> That's what I thought when I read that post. We have some brewers that claim to do but only 1 or 2 that actually do it.



I was taking more of a longterm future view with the comment to be honest. 

I think that more Micros will definately jump on the 'Hop Monster' beer bandwagon, and this trend whilst big in the US is yet to run its course here. It certainly has given some breweries over there a profile and I'm sure more here will dabble with it to make themselves stand out.

But IMHO this is a bit of a fad and in 10 years time I wonder how many 'Hop Monster' beers will still be around. A beer beyond 40 IBU at the moment would struggle to get a market from your average punter (unless you count something with a following like Coopers which is 40-45 IBU). The ones that can combine high IBU with a balanced grain profile might go the distance. But look at Mountain Goat here in Vic, they have just removed their IPA to replace with a low IBU Steam Beer. And they are selling truckloads more.

There are a couple of brewers as you say that do it (big yankee hopping), Jamieson's 'Beast' is one high IBU beer I can think of, but its appeal is pretty niche. I think definately more micros emulate what NZ brewers like Epic do, and DogfishHead in the US do with their '60/90/120 minute IPAs' in the short term, but this fad for 'Hop Monsters' will run its course and wane.

Will be interesting to watch (and drink some of these experiments) though  .

Hopper.


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## dgilks (3/2/10)

HoppingMad said:


> I was taking more of a longterm future view with the comment to be honest.
> 
> I think that more Micros will definately jump on the 'Hop Monster' beer bandwagon, and this trend whilst big in the US is yet to run its course here. It certainly has given some breweries over there a profile and I'm sure more here will dabble with it to make themselves stand out.
> 
> ...



From what I understand Mountain Goat actually replaced the Pale Ale with the Steam Beer as they felt there were enough APAs in the market and so they couldn't compete. The IPA was withdrawn and is being replaced by the new IPA (but with more limited distro). Jamieson Beast is one of the beers but not one I was thinking of as IMHO it has too much of a malt profile and too much emphasis on the bittering additions rather than getting more of the IBUs from later addition that provide more flavour and aroma. The real brewers I'm thinking of are Feral (Hop Hog) and Murray's (Icon 2IPA). I really would like to see more beers like those and those from Epic. But now I'm sounding like a broken record so I should shut up.


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## HoppingMad (3/2/10)

:icon_offtopic: Didn't realise the Mountain Goat IPA was coming back. That's awesome news. :icon_cheers: 

Hopper.


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## gregs (3/2/10)

Yikes said:


> If the aussie beer industry follows the wine industry wont we just find that we have wall to wall beers that we will really never know the subtle differences between because we could never taste them all. I was thinking today that a six pack of beers with different hops used in each would be fun. Find out the taste of each hop. You probably would have a hard time selling this one. Im just being lazy and dont want to do this for myself i guess.




I feel a bit like that every time I entre Dan Murphys just imagine whats available in the US. :huh:


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## manticle (3/2/10)

warrenlw63 said:


> For me it's all about beer being the drink of the working class... Best enjoyed with people that matter and the conversation being partially about beer and the rest about life in general.



Beer: A diverse range of beverages made for and by farmhands, peasants, monks and workers for thousands of years. Despite getting massively into this whole beer and brewing thing, I think you're right.

@Glenn:

I can't tell you what everyone else wants to see but the range of things I'm interested in brewing and buying are:

English ales, particularly towards the darker bigger end.
Belgian ales, as above
German and Eastern European malty, well bittered lagers and pale coloured ales
Preservative free all apple ciders (that actually taste like apples)

I'm also interested in sour/natural fermented beers but that might be a bit risky commercially. 

Overhopped american style pales don't do as much for me. I can enjoy them but I'll reach for a pils, stout or a dubbel before I'll go for an AIPA. That said, darker American style hoppier beers I quite like.


@boagsy: The idea of coming up with our own rather than a copy is a good one. I think Baron's have tried to do that to an extent. Certainly not perfect beers but I like the effort they've made.


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## jbowers (3/2/10)

dgilks said:


> That's what I thought when I read that post. We have some brewers that claim to do but only 1 or 2 that actually do it.



Even then, its not like they are producing outrageous version of the various styles. Some great beers, but nothing that's on the aggressive side of any category.


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## floppinab (3/2/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> There seems to be some confusion about why breweries brew lightly flavoured beer - its not harder to brew more flavoursome beer, its not particularly more expensive.



Thirsty I enjoy your contributions to the forum but I'm going to draw you on this one. You can't convince me that breweries haven't compromised on the flavour of their lighter fizzier beers with the prime motivation of cutting costs. It didn't happen overnight, and the impacts have been subtle over the course of many years but the introduction particularly of isohop (and lower use of any flavour/aroma hop), shorter fermentation and maturation periods, and to a lesser extent use of cheaper adjuncts have all had a negative impact on flavour at the end result.

I hear you saying that if that was the case then why hasn't market share been lost on poorer tasting beers then the simple answer to that is that market share isn't the ultimate game here, profitability is. And where monopolies or duopolies and signficant brand loyalty exist it doesn't take long for the sole competitor to quickly adopt the same technique and nobody really picks up on the subtle differences that takes place. When you get to that scale, cost is king, you cut costs first and worry about market share later.

I understand and agree with what you are saying about lighter beers. But don't try and tell me that a much kinder and longer fermentation profile (and a better tasting yeast to suit that profile) coupled with a longer lagering time with maybe some subtle real flavour and aroma hopping, producing a far better tasting beer that would sell just as well as what is out there now but require the huge capex and opex cost of triple (or more) the ferm and maturation capacity of a brewery, would cost not much more as whats out there today. It would come at a very signficant cost to the bottom line.


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## Muggus (3/2/10)

floppinab said:


> Thirsty I enjoy your contributions to the forum but I'm going to draw you on this one. You can't convince me that breweries haven't compromised on the flavour of their lighter fizzier beers with the prime motivation of cutting costs. It didn't happen overnight, and the impacts have been subtle over the course of many years but the introduction particularly of isohop (and lower use of any flavour/aroma hop), shorter fermentation and maturation periods, and to a lesser extent use of cheaper adjuncts have all had a negative impact on flavour at the end result.
> 
> I hear you saying that if that was the case then why hasn't market share been lost on poorer tasting beers then the simple answer to that is that market share isn't the ultimate game here, profitability is. And where monopolies or duopolies and signficant brand loyalty exist it doesn't take long for the sole competitor to quickly adopt the same technique and nobody really picks up on the subtle differences that takes place. When you get to that scale, cost is king, you cut costs first and worry about market share later.
> 
> I understand and agree with what you are saying about lighter beers. But don't try and tell me that a much kinder and longer fermentation profile (and a better tasting yeast to suit that profile) coupled with a longer lagering time with maybe some subtle real flavour and aroma hopping, producing a far better tasting beer that would sell just as well as what is out there now but require the huge capex and opex cost of triple (or more) the ferm and maturation capacity of a brewery, would cost the same as whats out there today.


Well said Gav, i'd have to agree with that.

On another more personal note, i'm quite happy seeing certain Aussie breweries really stepping outside the square and take on note just other styles, but hybrid and experimental beers.
Recently i've come across likes of Murrays Endless Summer, James Squire Orchard Ale and Bridge Road Oak Aged Imperial Porter, and it's made me smile to see some Aussie brewers expanding the horizons as far as experimentation and hybrid styles go. Sure, they might not be as renowned or well-made as some of the American micros are, but these are early days.
I'm of the oppinion that we are on the cusp of having a microbeer scene similiar to that of the US, where breweries will have great standard beers that keep them going, yet the freedom to create others that are that little bit more special, experimental, and unique. The kind of beers that step outside the square and far beyond, and blow minds in the process. Only problem is, alot of it takes time.


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## jbowers (3/2/10)

Muggus said:


> Well said Gav, i'd have to agree with that.
> 
> On another more personal note, i'm quite happy seeing certain Aussie breweries really stepping outside the square and take on note just other styles, but hybrid and experimental beers.
> Recently i've come across likes of Murrays Endless Summer, James Squire Orchard Ale and Bridge Road Oak Aged Imperial Porter, and it's made me smile to see some Aussie brewers expanding the horizons as far as experimentation and hybrid styles go. Sure, they might not be as renowned or well-made as some of the American micros are, but these are early days.
> I'm of the oppinion that we are on the cusp of having a microbeer scene similiar to that of the US, where breweries will have great standard beers that keep them going, yet the freedom to create others that are that little bit more special, experimental, and unique. The kind of beers that step outside the square and far beyond, and blow minds in the process. Only problem is, alot of it takes time.



What he said ^

That's exactly the point. We really shouldn't be worried about a saturation of 'out there' beers when it hasn't even happened. An ideal situation would be that the better breweries continue doing what they do - making awesome beers that appeal to a lot of people, giving them room to try out new things and, if viable, make them a part of their lineup ie. murrays endless summer apparently becoming a regular soon.


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## Fourstar (10/2/10)

HoppingMad said:


> :icon_offtopic: Didn't realise the Mountain Goat IPA was coming back. That's awesome news. :icon_cheers:
> 
> Hopper.


I almost ordered it at a bar/restaurant gigibaba and then noticed they where charging 25 bucks for 600ml. :blink: I'd just prefer to goto the brewery and drink it fro 9 bucks a pint as im pretty sure its the same recipe as the one they serve locally.


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## Bribie G (10/2/10)

CUB have been using isohop for the last 40 years at least and introduced the method to 'stabilise' the flavours of their beers due to fluctuations in the hops of the day rather than a cost cutting exercise.. they had to build a factory just to produce the stuff. TB would confirm. Also cane sugar has been used since time immemorial in Aussie lagers.

However I would agree about a longer lagering period. Ten days is pretty poor by any standard. I'm old enough to remember the Queensland beer strike, September to November 1979. It wasn't the brewery section that was on strike, it was the packaging department, and so they kept on brewing until the lagering tanks were full then just let the XXXX beer sit there for the duration. I remember that batch of XXXX when it eventually hit the pubs after a two month rest - it was nectar. Helped no doubt by Castlemaine Perkins using real hop flowers. 

I popped out for a couple of pizzas yesterday and while I was waiting for them I got a tallie of XXXX heavy from Liquorland and chugged it in the car. It wasn't a bad drop really and I can definitely pick the Cluster hops and the rather fuller malt compared to a Carlton Draught or a Fosters.


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## Thirsty Boy (11/2/10)

floppinab said:


> Thirsty I enjoy your contributions to the forum but I'm going to draw you on this one. You can't convince me that breweries haven't compromised on the flavour of their lighter fizzier beers with the prime motivation of cutting costs. It didn't happen overnight, and the impacts have been subtle over the course of many years but the introduction particularly of isohop (and lower use of any flavour/aroma hop), shorter fermentation and maturation periods, and to a lesser extent use of cheaper adjuncts have all had a negative impact on flavour at the end result.
> 
> I hear you saying that if that was the case then why hasn't market share been lost on poorer tasting beers then the simple answer to that is that market share isn't the ultimate game here, profitability is. And where monopolies or duopolies and signficant brand loyalty exist it doesn't take long for the sole competitor to quickly adopt the same technique and nobody really picks up on the subtle differences that takes place. When you get to that scale, cost is king, you cut costs first and worry about market share later.
> 
> I understand and agree with what you are saying about lighter beers. But don't try and tell me that a much kinder and longer fermentation profile (and a better tasting yeast to suit that profile) coupled with a longer lagering time with maybe some subtle real flavour and aroma hopping, producing a far better tasting beer that would sell just as well as what is out there now but require the huge capex and opex cost of triple (or more) the ferm and maturation capacity of a brewery, would cost not much more as whats out there today. It would come at a very signficant cost to the bottom line.



But the low carb beers are the counter to your argument.

They take longer and cost more to brew... but they are popular and by making a popular version of them, the big breweries get market share and make money. As are the BUL beers -- PITA to make compared to the local beer types, but we still make em and sell em.

I maintain my argument. More _flavorsome_ beers are simply not particularly harder nor more expensive to make. A beer of the same style, that you personally find more palatable (I would too) because it more closely matches the beers that are made by German Mega Brewers rather than Australian ones - would be a bit more expensive to make. But still obviously possible at the mega brewer level, because most of those sorts of beers are in fact made by mega brewers - to suit _their_ local palates. The German businessmen obviously being far less interested in making money than the Australian variety. Your argument addresses the notion that the big brewers make low quality beer, it says nothing about why they choose to make the _type_ of beer they make. Light subtly flavoured beers.

Which is why my argument here hasn't been about making "better" beer, but about learning the lesson of which beers sell well in Australia - by looking at the types of beers that actually do sell well in Australia. And then applying the Micro Brewer's level of passion and art to them, to produce wonderful, light subtly flavoured beers - that will appeal not only to the beer geek market, but also to the wider beer drinking market.


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## Dazza_devil (11/2/10)

So that's now but what about the future of beer?
Will our tastes as a nation on the whole change?
I think the micro-brewery is on the rise, is here in Tassie anyway. I hope it catches on.


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## .DJ. (11/2/10)

consumers are so fickle and "stuck in their ways"

Perception takes a long time to change...

What do I think the future is? More VB, NEW, XXXX and "low carb". So really nothing changes...

What do I want it to be? Well due to our climate I would like to see a rise in Wheats and Saisons. I think the PERFECT beer for the australian climate has already been made. *Murrays Whale Ale*. Light, refreshing Wheat beer that is well balanced and not to "offensive" for want of a better word... Subtle flavours for the craft beer drinker aswell as being "Swill-able" for the masses...

But in a *perfect* world.. More IPA's!!!


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## Muggus (11/2/10)

.DJ. said:


> But in a *perfect* world.. More *black* IPA's!!!


Fixed.


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## .DJ. (11/2/10)

speaking Murrays and Black IPA's, they have one coming out this month I believe...


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## Wardhog (11/2/10)

.DJ. said:


> But in a *perfect* world.. More IPA's!!!



Hear, hear.

But it needs to be a gradual shift to those sorts of beers. I think Thirsty Boy's right in that lighter inoffensive beers are what sells *here today*. It took the megabreweries a long time to evolve (or devolve, depending on your viewpoint) their beers into what they are today. Like it or not, they are what people are used to, and you don't change the view of that large a group of people overnight.

Improve and evolve the type of beers they're used to, don't try to force new flavours on them. Slowly change what Australia thinks beer is. Take another 40 years to make the average Aussie think that beer should have a minimum of 65 IBU and be copper coloured.


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## Dazza_devil (11/2/10)

Marketing can sell anything. The big breweries have got enough dough to sell anything if they really wanted. It's not what the people want just what they are led to believe they want.
How about marketing a beer taken from a secret recipe that dead monk made 200 years ago found in the ruins of an old monestary. You get the drift.
What's in the future, maybe they will put more vitamins and a cure for cancer into the beer so the more you drink the healthier you get.
Perhaps it will be less than 2 percent alcohol because society's tolerence to alcohol has diminished. We may be so controlled in 100 years time that homebrewers are the only brewers and it's blackmarket.
What about a beer with a hint of viagra guaranteed to give you a fat for 24 hours, now that's gotta sell.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (11/2/10)

Why should anyone here be defining what the masses drink?

I would have thought that people tend to buy what they want to buy and drink what they want to drink. Isn't that one of the reasons why we homebrewers (craftbrewers, amateur brewers, wankers) brew the sorts of beers we want? 

Surely, to suggest otherwise would be like me, as a lover of small, environment-friendly cars, asserting that all you 4-, 6- and 8- cylinder car owners should be driving "better" cars, or if those freaky Apple computer fans were to insist that the Windows machines became illegal?


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## Dazza_devil (11/2/10)

No-one is gonna buy something unless they know it exists. They wont even look for it on the shelf. Consumers usually buy with some sort of recommendation and usually aren't game to try something different particulaly if it is expensive and an unknown quantity. The media predicts this but I would say that peoples knowledge of beer in general is on the increase and so are the availability of better beers. My prediction for the furure is upward and outward.


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## Thirsty Boy (12/2/10)

.DJ. said:


> What do I want it to be? Well due to our climate I would like to see a rise in Wheats and Saisons.




Now there is a good take-away for the OP. I think this is spot on.

Less alcoholic versions of Saison - in the vein of the stuff that would have originally been brewed for field hands.

Quenching Tart wheat beers - I think Wits or American wheats rather than Hefe's. Nothing with a load of bananas or cloves, just a light fruitiness, a tart wheat thirst quench and not too much bitterness.

Maybe Berliner Weiss at the less acid end of the spectrum - Great summer day drink & has the plus of being very low alcohol too.


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## pmolou (12/2/10)

although there are actually a couple of quality low gravity Saisons and Belgians already around such as Murrays and Temple Saison :icon_drool2: ...


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## drsmurto (12/2/10)

Clouded the future of beer is.....


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## Muggus (12/2/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Clouded the future of beer is.....


I certainly hope so.
Save me the time filtering the bloody stuff!


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## BitterBulldog (13/2/10)

The future is looking fkn GREAT! 
I haven't brewed the same style twice & everytime i go to Dan Murphies or 1st Choice there's a new Aussie Micro to try!
Style wise i like the direction Murray's is taking - combining styles etc!


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