# No More Protein Resting For Me



## SJW (14/8/08)

I have just noticed something very interesting. I have a Dortmunder, Oktoberfest, CAP and a English Bitter on tap at the moment. The CAP and Oktoberfest were double infused with a protein rest at 52 for about 20mins, and the Dort was the Decoction that also had a protein rest. One thing I have noticed is with these 3 beers the head retention is very very BAD! The CAP is not so bad but the other 2 are no where near as good as my previous brews when I have not protein rested and just infused at 67 or so and mashed out. The English bitter on the other hand, even with very low carbonation levels holds a big rocky head right to the end, and it was mashed in at 70 deg C. It was Ross's Carbrook lite or similar. Great beer too, and at only 2.4% Alcohol.
So as John Palmer says:

Moderately-modified malts benefit from a protein rest to break down any remnant large proteins into smaller proteins and amino acids as well as to further release the starches from the endosperm. Fully-modified malts have already made use of these enzymes and do not benefit from more time spent in the protein rest regime. In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery. Most base malt in use in the world today is fully modified. 

I beleive this to be true as I only use fully modified malts, these being Weyermann Premium Pils in the above mentioned brews.

Steve


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## blackbock (14/8/08)

SJW how can you go from being a firm advocate of protein resting to non-believer in one swoop just because you have three headless beers on tap?  

Has is occurred to you that there could be multiple explanations for this phenomenon?


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## tdh (14/8/08)

All malts available in AUS are well-modified (Kolbach 40+).

No need for a protein rest.

tdh


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## agraham (14/8/08)

That is nice to know.


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## Thirsty Boy (14/8/08)

no need for one, but I am a believer in a well aimed P rest. But... not at 52.

At 56. 

This temp avoids breaking the few longer protiens into small protiens, and instead favours the production of medium length protiens that are good for head retention.

My head formation and retention improved noticeably when I began to regularly incorporate a short (5 mins or less) protien rest at 56 into my mash. But aside from the desire t improve my head retention, I dont think there is any _need_ to do a P rest.

TB


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## Millet Man (14/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> no need for one, but I am a believer in a well aimed P rest. But... not at 52.
> 
> At 56.
> 
> ...


+1
Took some advice from Graham Sanders a few years ago to rest at 55C and it works a treat.

Even with sorghum malt the same applies - a protein rest at 50-52C destroys body and head retention while doing it in the mid to high 50's has a much better result in terms of head retention.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## phonos (15/8/08)

So if you're resting at 55C, are you getting higher attenuation as you are sitting inside the beta amylase range, or is 5 mins too short for that? 

Are you then raising the temp to standard mashing temperatures (e.g. 66C) or are you going slightly higher to compensate for the 5min 55C rest?


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## warrenlw63 (15/8/08)

Sorry to hear that Steve, I've always had the opposite experience. I've found it to be the one big improvement re; head quality on my beers.

Like everything though at least you can say you've tried it. Better to try and see if you like rather than purely theorise and never know.

To be honest great beers can be had either way. All down to what you prefer and like doing on your brewday.  

Warren -


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## BoilerBoy (15/8/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> Sorry to hear that Steve, I've always had the opposite experience. I've found it to be the one big improvement re; head quality on my beers.
> 
> Like everything though at least you can say you've tried it. Better to try and see if you like rather than purely theorise and never know.
> 
> ...



What he said,

BB


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## SJW (15/8/08)

> SJW how can you go from being a firm advocate of protein resting to non-believer in one swoop just because you have three headless beers on tap?
> 
> Has is occurred to you that there could be multiple explanations for this phenomenon?



Interesting I know. Maybe the tiltle of the thread is a bit harsh.
The last beer I protein rested was the 1st Prize winning Schwarzbier I brewed back in Jan 08. Since then I have done a fair few German Lagers including the 3 on tap now with no protein rest. I did rest these one to see if it made a diff, and IMO it did.



> So if you're resting at 55C, are you getting higher attenuation as you are sitting inside the beta amylase range, or is 5 mins too short for that?
> 
> Are you then raising the temp to standard mashing temperatures (e.g. 66C) or are you going slightly higher to compensate for the 5min 55C rest?



This is very intersting too, maybe 55c would be a beter number. From memory I was not over 52c and maybe even a little under.
What a shame, I will just have to keep brewing and experimenting.
Has anyone tried a rest at 40 ish to improve the liquefaction of the mash and promote enzyme activity?


Steve


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## Weizguy (15/8/08)

Yes Steve, I've done a few hydration/acid rests at 35-40C.

Mostly for wheat/wit beer that benefit from the rest, and seems to increase extraction.

Les


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## jojai (15/8/08)

I've forgotten where, but someone on here wrote a blog about stepped mash compared to single infusion, is this the same thing? From memory they went from 30 - 53 - 68, I'm not sure how long they left it for each temperature, but presumably an hour or so total. Anyway, point was that they reported the stepped mash achieved a tighter, creamier head that lasted until the end, whereas the single infusion head produced big foamy bubbles that burst and died quick. (They brewed a lager of some variety). 

This is interesting though, because to my understanding most European commercial brands employ a protein rest and companies like Heineken have pretty strict rules about head retention (an hour undisturbed?) Anyway keep it coming because I will try the best advice for my next few brews  I love a good head, so it's very valuable knowledge!


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## kabooby (15/8/08)

It was in Zwickel's Blog

Link?

Kabooby


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## kook (15/8/08)

Many of the recipes listed on Weyermann's website use a step mash. That said, I personally don't think it is a necessity.


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## Julez (15/8/08)

tdh said:


> All malts available in AUS are well-modified (Kolbach 40+).
> 
> No need for a protein rest.
> 
> tdh



The Kolbach Index is also known as Soluble Nitrogen Ratio. Protein is measured by Nitrogen levels in the malt. The SNR is a ratio of soluble nitrogen (or protein) to total nitrogen (or protein). 

From Noonan: 

"The SNR is an important indicator of malt modification. The higher the number, the more highly modified the malt. Malts destined for infusion mashing should have an SNR of 36-42%, or up to 45% for light-bodied beer. At a percentage much over 45% SNR, the beer will be thin in body and mouthfeel. For traditional lager malts, 30-33% indicates undermodification, and 37-40% indicates overmodification." 

So if you look up the spec sheet on your malt, you should see whether a protein rest is appropriate or not. Even the Weyermann Bo Pils malt is 38-42%, according to their spec sheet, so TDH may be right for the vast majority of barley-based malts available in Aus. As Noonan says, when the SNR gets to 45%, the beer will become thin and watery, so applying a protein rest to an already well-modified malt will cause this result. 

That's the theory - practise may be different of course


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## jojai (15/8/08)

Yeah that's the one Kabooby: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/blog...hp?showentry=15 

My next beer is a witbier so I'm going to do the 40C rest thing, should 5 minutes be enough?


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## SJW (15/8/08)

Weyermann Permium Pilsner that I have been using is between 37.5 and 40.0. 
Its just interesting, and I guess everyone system works a little differently. I am just used to have very tight, dense heads on my Single infused + mashed out Lagers. 
As I now have many years of brewing ahead of me, maybe I will get to the bottom of it yet. 
Next time I might aim for a few more deg C for the protein rest.
It had no detrimental effects doing a 52 deg C protein rest with the CAP, as there was 30% Flaked Maize in that.
Just odd that the Okoberfest that was a double infusion and the Dortmunder that was Decoction had these results.
Not a big deal though.
Alway learning, always learning


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## jojai (15/8/08)

Steve, do you brew any particular beer quite regularly? Perhaps trial a few different mashing systems to find out what works best. Although, then there's always the fact that different ingredients will work better with different mashes.


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## dr K (15/8/08)

For whats it's worth I do a thick dough-in with an anticipated mash temp of 55-60C, I then add 80-90C water to slowly get the mash up to my sacc rest temp (66-69 depending on what I want to achieve), if I miss badly and the mash gets a bit thin (ie it starts overflowing the tun!!) I recirculate a bit, this is uncommon though.
I would not call this a stepped infusion, I would not call it a protein rest either but it works for me.
Certainly the so called protein rest at 50c is counter-productive (in all barley beers) given the type of malts we use.

K


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## wessmith (15/8/08)

Folks, the Kolbach Index is a guide - read guide only. You would need to see the actual protein level of the raw barley to determine if the malt is readily brewable or not. The higher the protein level, the higher the Kolbach Index will be to compensate. 

At the end of the day you need to trust the maltster.

Wes


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## Benniee (15/8/08)

SJW said:


> As I now have many years of brewing ahead of me, maybe I will get to the bottom of it yet.



I hope that means there's been good news on your health mate.

Benniee


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## Thirsty Boy (16/8/08)

Phonos said:


> So if you're resting at 55C, are you getting higher attenuation as you are sitting inside the beta amylase range, or is 5 mins too short for that?
> 
> Are you then raising the temp to standard mashing temperatures (e.g. 66C) or are you going slightly higher to compensate for the 5min 55C rest?



I'd say thats probably how its working. I tend to go for just about 60-75min total mash time including ramps. I do tend ot rest at a higher temp than most people here do. My standard is 67-68.

I was resting for 15-20 mins at the 55-56 level, but I do think that was making my beer too thin, so I have cut the P rest down to 5Mins or less and I am happy. Feel that I am getting the best of both worlds.

Standard for me would be to aim for an initial temperature of 56, get my mash well stirred and settled, then if all that has taken more than a minute or two, start my ramp to sach rest almost immediately. Straight up to my sweet zone of 67-68 or if I am looking for a dryer finish, I'll pause at 62-63 for a while on the way.

My caveat is... that I am using mega brewer malt as my base malt. So the stuff is mostly schooner with a bit of gairdner. Its my understanding that schooner is notorious for stability in its fermentability profile even with quite a bit of variance in mash temps. So what I am doing might well have a more drastic effect if I was using a different malt. Mind you, I don't change a lot if I decide to make something a bit special and go with a nice imported malt... so maybe not.

Thirsty


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## phonos (16/8/08)

Thanks for that info thirsty. I did a pilsner on tuesday with joe white malt and included a 10-15min protein rest at 55C and was wondering if i was going to end up with pure blonde. What a waste if 140g of saaz flowers if i did!


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## goatherder (16/8/08)

With 140g of saaz flowers, I think you'll be OK Phonos.


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## SJW (16/8/08)

> Steve, do you brew any particular beer quite regularly? Perhaps trial a few different mashing systems to find out what works best. Although, then there's always the fact that different ingredients will work better with different mashes.



Well the industry std. around here is anything that is German and Lager. Its just an observation that with 3 protein rest lagers in a row the head RETENTION is crap. The head from the tap even with low carbonation is very very good but just disappears before the end of the beer.
From what all the books say I did do the wrong thing with the malt I was using. The protein rests would have been closer to 50 deg C and all for 30mins. Its not that big a deal but I might do the next few without a protein rest and decoct off for the mash out.



> At the end of the day you need to trust the maltster.


 very true. I guess have just proved what all the text book says.


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## blackbock (16/8/08)

SJW said:


> Well the industry std. around here is anything that is German and Lager. Its just an observation that with 3 protein rest lagers in a row the head RETENTION is crap.



It's great that you're still persevering with the Lagers Steve, even if you're changing mash schedules :icon_cheers: 

Too many brewers on here do nothing but stinky ales.


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## Stuster (16/8/08)

blackbock said:


> Too many brewers on here do nothing but stinky ales.









Right. Outside.


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## blackbock (17/8/08)

I knew that would get the juices flowing!


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## bindi (17/8/08)

: 

Too many brewers on here do nothing but stinky ales.
[/quote]


What ? :unsure: I have four lagers on tap [all nice] but I can't wait for one to blow so I can put on a stinky ALE. :lol: 

Nice lagers but becoming as boring as bat sh$t [funny saying].


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## JoeG (18/8/08)

This thread has got me thinking - I have been using a protein rest (around 52, 15min) as standard practice for the last 20 or so beers I've made. Without an overly scientific approach, the results seem worth it: slight increase in efficiancy, no problem with head retention & its helped with some haze issues I was having.

I remembered something I read in the bible according to Noonan, which prompted me to dig out my copy and find ity again. In chapter 10 on mashing, he talks about an alternate mash program better suited to modern well-modified malts (soluble nitrogin 37-40%):

A combined proteolysis/saccharification rest at 55C
Followed by a dextrinization rest at 70 - 72C

Has anybody tried a mash program like this? I'm thinking of giving it a go soon, along the line of:

mash-in prot/sach rest 56C 30min (???)
perform a decoction to boost to 72C 30min (???)
mash-out with boiling infusion 77C 15min

Noonan didn't really go in to detail with step times and the like for this program - so I'm really looking for advice from anyone who's tried something similar.

Cheers


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## Thirsty Boy (18/8/08)

pretty damn close to the mash schedule I described above - so yes. But if you are decocting or infusing hot water, rather than changing temp by an application of heat via a HERMS/RIMS/Direct Heat - then your step will be instantaneous and the wort will spend no time at temps between 56 & 72... so I would be tempted to drop that dextrination rest down a degree or two.

Perhaps 56 - 68/70 - then 77

depends if Noonan was talking about a "step" change versus a "ramp" change

but thats just me guessing based on my mash schedule

Thirsty


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## JoeG (18/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> pretty damn close to the mash schedule I described above - so yes. But if you are decocting or infusing hot water, rather than changing temp by an application of heat via a HERMS/RIMS/Direct Heat - then your step will be instantaneous and the wort will spend no time at temps between 56 & 72... so I would be tempted to drop that dextrination rest down a degree or two.
> 
> Perhaps 56 - 68/70 - then 77
> 
> ...



Thanks Thirsty - I note you use a very short rest at 56C. I was planning 30 min at 56 and 30 min at dex temp - do you think I would run the risk of ripping out too much body by extending the lower temp rest? My thinking is, if its a combined proteolysis/saccharification rest, then I should give it a little time to convert.

I really should just suck-it and see, and find out for myself - but I guess its worth asking if there's a mistake in there I can avoid.


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## Julez (18/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> pretty damn close to the mash schedule I described above - so yes. But if you are decocting or infusing hot water, rather than changing temp by an application of heat via a HERMS/RIMS/Direct Heat - then your step will be instantaneous and the wort will spend no time at temps between 56 & 72... so I would be tempted to drop that dextrination rest down a degree or two.
> 
> Perhaps 56 - 68/70 - then 77
> 
> ...



I'm going to give this a go myself, sounds like a good plan, Thirsty.

I read the same in Noonan about the 55/56 degree rest to replace the traditional 50-52 degree protein rest. I brewed a pretty traditional pilsener last weekend with a protein rest that I missed to the high side. I will be interested to see how it turns out, maybe it was a good mistake to make :icon_chickcheers:


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## SJW (18/8/08)

Sounds like a plan boys. I might give it a go myself. After reading Noonans New brewing Lager Beers it does appear that if you are using well modified malts and have no problems with chill haze there is little reason to do a traditional protein rest. Esspecially when traditional protein rests were as long as 60mins.
I am doing a Schwarzbier on the weekend so there will be no chill haze issues here, but I might just try only adding in half of the mash in water first to bring the mash to 56 deg or so for 10 or 15 mins then add the rest in to bring up to 68 or so deg C.
I love challenging these thing we do just because that was the way we was taught.

Steve


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## JoeG (23/8/08)

I gave the 56 - 70 - mash-out step mash a go last night. It was an Irish Red with an average sort of grain bill: 
5kg with 80% base malt, 10% specialty malts and 10% flaked barley.

Mash was 56 - 30min
70 - 30min
75 - 15min (all steps done with boiling water infusions)

Mush too early for any real results. I will say the mash went smoothly, I got good efficiancy (85%) and excellent hot and cold break from the boil. Proof will be in the glass.


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## pingdong (27/2/11)

blackbock said:


> It's great that you're still persevering with the Lagers Steve, even if you're changing mash schedules :icon_cheers:
> 
> Too many brewers on here do nothing but stinky ales.



I did a lager yesterday i stepped up my yeast and tipped off beer then rehidrated yesterday whil brewing. i cooled wort to 22. i wanted to pitch yeast a 8 so i put wort in fridge after a few hours it was at 18 so i pitched yeast. should i have waited till morning when wort was down to 8c. its down to 10 now. also when and what temp do i do secondary ferment and then when do i cool to lager?

Thanks pm me if its off topic please

Matt


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## Punkal (27/2/11)

Mad Matt

It depends on what yeast you used, I think 12-15 is the recommended pitching temp for most lagers and then 8-12 for fermentation but pitching at 8-12 is ok too...
Now I cant say if 22 would have killed off your yeast its on the hot side for lager but i am not a expert, i use Nottingham when i want to pretend to make a lager h34r:


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## Hogan (27/2/11)

Mad Matt said:


> I did a lager yesterday i stepped up my yeast and tipped off beer then rehidrated yesterday whil brewing. i cooled wort to 22. i wanted to pitch yeast a 8 so i put wort in fridge after a few hours it was at 18 so i pitched yeast. should i have waited till morning when wort was down to 8c. its down to 10 now. also when and what temp do i do secondary ferment and then when do i cool to lager?
> 
> Thanks pm me if its off topic please
> 
> Matt



Matt - I previously pitched my lager yeast (liquid) at 18c and brought it down to the ferment temp. No real problems as Whitelabs say that you will not bring out any bad flavours if dropping temp in first 8 hours. Having said that I now pitch at 8c and let it rise to 10c for fermentation. 

I don't do a secondary but rack the beer off the yeast at completion of fermentatation. Then drop the temp to 0c over 24 hours and cold condition. 


Cheers, Hoges.


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## Bribie G (27/2/11)

This is why we need a dedicated Yeast subforum to discuss these things.

I just made my first real standard Nazi method BoPils for a couple of years. I made up a Wyeast Urquell starter at room temperature as recommended until it was fermenting nicely. I no chill and had a cube of wort already at lager temperature but let it drift up to around 12. So as not to shock the yeast on pitching the starter I gradually reduced the starter to around 15 over a few hours then pitched and drifted the beer down to 10.5 overnight, where it will for 2 weeks clingwrapped.

Then I'll run into cube and lager in the cold fridge till end of April.

Edit: at end of primary I'll raise to around 13 for a few days for the D rest.


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## speedie (2/3/11)

typical brew day for cold fermenting would be to redydrate yeast at 25 degrees go through mashing regime which is always three stepped then mash out @ 80
sparge boil then run through chiller which uses tap water and is generally around 25 degrees
this would put my wort around that mark into the fermenter
pitch yeast then put into coolroom @ 8-12 degrees let the wort cool down overnight and have never had any problems 

yeast of preferance would be 34-70 damn fine stuff
a pro brewer mate of mine ferments hes 3000 litre brews @ 6 degrees with this yeast


mash profile dough in @ 45 rest for 15 min raise to 52 15 min rest raise to between 63-68 depending on preferance 
raise to 80 then transfer and sparge
speedie


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