# Is It Hard To Brew An Ag Lager



## bvanlathum (21/2/08)

Is it possible to brew a lager with the Batch sparge method of mashing? If so, would like to know the ins and outs.


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## geoffi (21/2/08)

bridgee said:


> Is it possible to brew a lager with the Batch sparge method of mashing? If so, would like to know the ins and outs.




Ins and outs?

Water goes in...wort comes out...

You can brew an AG lager exactly as you would an ale, with a simple infusion mash and whatever type of sparge suits you. Batch sparge works perfectly well.


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## goatherder (21/2/08)

Yep, it is absolutely possible. Many do it and do it well. The method of sparging has little to do with it. I like batch sparging because it was simpler for me to learn and that's the way I do things now.

What makes a lager challenging is that they are often pale and delicate in flavour, leaving no room for any flaws to hide. Scrupulous sanitation, a big pitch of yeast and a long cold ferment are three key ingredients in a decent lager. Give the wort a good hard boil to help drive off DMS (which can be found in pilsner malt) and use good quality fresh hops.


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## geoffi (21/2/08)

Second the boil. 90 minutes to be safe for pilsener malts is my opinion.


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## braufrau (21/2/08)

Does the lagering temperature have to be constant ... or just cold?


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## Adamt (21/2/08)

Constant temperature doesnt really matter, colder the better as more solids come out of solution. Most important thing is to keep it still so sedimentation can happen, and rack gently off the sediment.


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## matti (21/2/08)

> Does the lagering temperature have to be constant ... or just cold?



Pitch at 16 degrees or there about then bring to 9-12 degrees.

Constant temperatures is always better!

Batch sparge? No worries. Mash at 63 and ensure you got the right grain bill/conditions to ensure good conversion.

matti


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## tim_mortensen (21/2/08)

I find the best results are to be had by pitching cold, into wort at 7C, then letting the wort warm up slowly to about 10C over a few days, then holding it constant there.

That way you get a very clean lager with no fermentation flaws.

As for lagering, keeping it between -1 to 1C is ideal, though if it fluctuates a bit up to fridge temps it doesn't seem to cause any harm.

Tim


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## braufrau (22/2/08)

mortz said:


> I find the best results are to be had by pitching cold, into wort at 7C, then letting the wort warm up slowly to about 10C over a few days, then holding it constant there.
> 
> That way you get a very clean lager with no fermentation flaws.
> 
> ...




Ummm ... how about putting it in the chook yard on the south side of the house in winter? :unsure:


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## tangent (22/2/08)

> Mash at 63 and ensure you got the right grain bill/conditions to ensure good conversion.


 ???


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## crozdog (22/2/08)

I've made some great AG lagers with single temp infusion mashing and batch sparging using both joe white & weyyerman malt. Give it a go as long as you can control your fermentation temp - ow wait till winter. As mentioned plenty of yeast is essential.

Matti - I prefer to mash lagers at 65-66 to get more of that yummy malty goodness coming through. 63 would be too dry IMHO.


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## Trough Lolly (22/2/08)

bridgee said:


> Is it possible to brew a lager with the Batch sparge method of mashing? If so, would like to know the ins and outs.



G'day Bridgee - there are three keys to making a good lager...Fresh Ingredients, Patience and Temperature Control.

For more info and pics on making a lager with batch sparge: Click on this link...

Cheers,
TL


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## mikem108 (22/2/08)

The brewing bit is easy, its the fermentation that counts in this style, Trough Lolly summed it up


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## axl (22/2/08)

Sparging, Mashing same as ales. A bit cooler mashing temp for lagers though IMO for a drier finish. 
The key difference here is the yeast strain. Lager or Ale?? Obviously choose a lager yeast for a lager and an ale yeast for an ale, easy!.
I prefer the dried lager yeasts as opposed to the liquid. Especially the "brew Cellar European Lager". The main reason is it is a clean, fast fermenting yeast with no residual sulphury flavour. It will also ferment at minimal temps ie, 10-12 degrees and you will get good consistant low FG's with no flavour flaws.
IMO you should forget the liquid lager yeasts as they are too temperamental. Go the dried ones. 
Yeast and temp are the keys to a good lager and that's it.


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## tangent (22/2/08)

or mash at 65-66C and don't use any crystal/cara. Amazing how many people mash low for a dry finish but religiously use a freakin' kilo of carapils or something crazy.
my best lagers have been 100% pils and 60minute bittering hops only.
it's all about the fridge!


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## goatherder (22/2/08)

repeat after me:

I don't need carapils, I don't need carapils, I don't need carapils...


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## Gough (22/2/08)

axl said:


> Sparging, Mashing same as ales. A bit cooler mashing temp for lagers though IMO for a drier finish.
> The key difference here is the yeast strain. Lager or Ale?? Obviously choose a lager yeast for a lager and an ale yeast for an ale, easy!.
> I prefer the dried lager yeasts as opposed to the liquid. Especially the "brew Cellar European Lager". The main reason is it is a clean, fast fermenting yeast with no residual sulphury flavour. It will also ferment at minimal temps ie, 10-12 degrees and you will get good consistant low FG's with no flavour flaws.
> IMO you should forget the liquid lager yeasts as they are too temperamental. Go the dried ones.
> Yeast and temp are the keys to a good lager and that's it.



Just for a different point of view  

Liquid lager yeasts are great. I can't see how they are any more temperamental than dried yeasts?? Sulphury aromas during fermentation are a very common part of many lager ferments - conditioning/lagering sorts them out and leaves the beer with the classic 'lager' profile. Don't let the sulphur worry you! Each to their own etc, but I'm much more confident pitching a good liquid slurry/starter into a cold ferment than a dried yeast. 

Best of luck with it,

Shawn.


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## Trough Lolly (28/2/08)

Gough said:


> Just for a different point of view
> 
> Liquid lager yeasts are great. I can't see how they are any more temperamental than dried yeasts?? Sulphury aromas during fermentation are a very common part of many lager ferments - conditioning/lagering sorts them out and leaves the beer with the classic 'lager' profile. Don't let the sulphur worry you! Each to their own etc, but I'm much more confident pitching a good liquid slurry/starter into a cold ferment than a dried yeast.
> 
> ...



Another vote here for liquid lager yeast. Sure, you can make a great lagers with S-189 or W34/70 etc, but if you want to get closer to the real thing, a starter made from healthy, viable Budvar yeast (Wyeast 2000), Urquell (Wyeast 2001) or California Common (Wyeast2112) and their white labs cousins etc is the way to go - you can't make a great lager if you're in a rush...

...and as a side note, I've not used Carapils for more than 2 years!

Cheers,
TL


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## SJW (28/2/08)

> repeat after me:
> 
> I don't need carapils, I don't need carapils, I don't need carapils...



I agree. I have never found a need to use this for head retention or as a crystal. 
Another one for the chinese whispers I reckon!

Steve


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## bconnery (28/2/08)

Like they all said. 
Lagers are a lot less scarey than all the technical info out there would have you believe. 
Temperature during fermentation is the key. 
I don't even properly lager mine any more. 

Grain bill as per the style of lager you are after. My current favourite is a 95% pils, 5% Munich grain bill (I have been using carapils, but just to use it up, honest  )
Hops, again for style or preference. I've been going a 60 minute and flavour addition @15/20, but no later than 15.
Yeast, again for preference. 
I know excellent lager brewers who swear by liquid. 
I know excellent lager brewers who sweat by dry. 
I like s189 myself, but as a relative newcomer to successful lagers I don't have a wide sample set...

Pitch higher, 17C and drop, or else pitch at your temp. This is what has worked for me but I don't claim it is the best or only way...
Pitch enough yeast. 
Keep the temperature down in the best range for your yeast. 
Do a diacetyl rest if you prefer or feel the need. 

So mine are now simple. 
Pitch at around 12C. Ferment for just under 2 weeks, checking gravity. 
Drop down a little colder for a day or two. 
Rack to keg. 
Carbonate and leave for a week. 
They generally need another week, but not always. 
This will also vary on style, gravity etc. but for my current german pilsner / munich helles variants it is working just fine...

My german pilsner at christmas was totally gone in a shade under 5 weeks from brewday.


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## deevee (28/2/08)

Trough Lolly said:


> Another vote here for liquid lager yeast. Sure, you can make a great lagers with S-189 or W34/70 etc, but if you want to get closer to the real thing, a starter made from healthy, viable Budvar yeast (Wyeast 2000), Urquell (Wyeast 2001) or California Common (Wyeast2112) and their white labs cousins etc is the way to go - you can't make a great lager if you're in a rush...




Trough Lolly, what do you mean by getting close to the real thing? There are heaps of breweries who use 34/70 yeast for their commercial lagers. What makes the Liquid yeasts more "Real"?


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## Trough Lolly (3/3/08)

deevee said:


> Trough Lolly, what do you mean by getting close to the real thing? There are heaps of breweries who use 34/70 yeast for their commercial lagers. What makes the Liquid yeasts more "Real"?



Point taken deevee, but IMHO, the decision to use W34/70 or S-04 in blocks is in many cases, a commercially driven decision. The margins that some breweries are at procludes many from using a specialty strain. My thoughts were more related to the well known breweries that have a world wide reputation at fermenting and harvesting a strain that's unique to their beer - eg Pilsner Urquell, Timothy Taylor Landlord, Sierra Nevada, Anchor Steam, Belgians, Trappists, etc etc...I'm certainly not saying that you can't make a great pilsner without that particular strain, but for those brewers who are striving to make that closest possible replica, you need to factor in choice of yeast strain in that equation.

Cheers,
TL


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## oldbugman (3/3/08)

deevee said:


> Trough Lolly, what do you mean by getting close to the real thing? There are heaps of breweries who use 34/70 yeast for their commercial lagers. What makes the Liquid yeasts more "Real"?



And I bet none of them are 'sprinkling' in any or all batches. either starters or reusing.


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## deevee (4/3/08)

Trough Lolly said:


> Point taken deevee, but IMHO, the decision to use W34/70 or S-04 in blocks is in many cases, a commercially driven decision. The margins that some breweries are at procludes many from using a specialty strain. My thoughts were more related to the well known breweries that have a world wide reputation at fermenting and harvesting a strain that's unique to their beer - eg Pilsner Urquell, Timothy Taylor Landlord, Sierra Nevada, Anchor Steam, Belgians, Trappists, etc etc...I'm certainly not saying that you can't make a great pilsner without that particular strain, but for those brewers who are striving to make that closest possible replica, you need to factor in choice of yeast strain in that equation.
> 
> Cheers,
> TL




TL, when you said the "Real Thing", I thought you meant "Real Lager". I totally understand, yes to make an Urquell or a Budvar, you would best use the Urquell and Budvar yeasts respectively.

However yeast is one thing, malt and hops are the big beasts. There is no way through my experience that I can get the maltiness of an Budvar / Staro / Krusovice / Urqell using just Weyerman Boh Pils malt alone. To make the Real thing here, you will need their undermodified malts and use their mashing regimes. Also I take a quote from Urquells Brewmaster that they use direct fire to either boil or heat their mashes (Not sure which one). And he says "A beer tastes better from fire than from steam".

So alot of factors in making the real thing. My suggestion in making great lagers is to experiment with different specialty malts and hop schedules and make it which will suit your brewing system. A recipe on the net may be good for one person but maynot work for someone else. And also "Think outside the square".


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## crozdog (4/3/08)

deevee said:


> TL, when you said the "Real Thing", I thought you meant "Real Lager". I totally understand, yes to make an Urquell or a Budvar, you would best use the Urquell and Budvar yeasts respectively.
> 
> However yeast is one thing, malt and hops are the big beasts. There is no way through my experience that I can get the maltiness of an Budvar / Staro / Krusovice / Urqell using just Weyerman Boh Pils malt alone. To make the Real thing here, you will need their undermodified malts and use their mashing regimes. Also I take a quote from Urquells Brewmaster that they use direct fire to either boil or heat their mashes (Not sure which one). And he says "A beer tastes better from fire than from steam".
> 
> So alot of factors in making the real thing. My suggestion in making great lagers is to experiment with different specialty malts and hop schedules and make it which will suit your brewing system. A recipe on the net may be good for one person but maynot work for someone else. And also "Think outside the square".



Deevee,
IMHO, the "hot side" of the brewhouse (including the malt and hop "big beasts") is only 50% of the equation. The other 50% of making a great beer - be that ale or lager, is the "cold side" ie the fermentation process. In the cold side your sanitation, process, yeast selection, yeast health, pitching rate and temperature are all critical. Note that half the points I raise here relate to yeast!

Personally I don't try to make copies, I like to brew to (or something like) a particular style. Yeah sure malt & hop bills do impact as does water treatment, but for my way of thinking, the cold side and in particular yeast plays an often overlooked role.


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## Lindsay Dive (4/3/08)

bconnery said:


> Like they all said.
> Lagers are a lot less scarey than all the technical info out there would have you believe.
> Temperature during fermentation is the key.
> I don't even properly lager mine any more.
> ...



bconnery,

I reckon you're the first to point this out. And one facet of brewing fine lager that I feel is important.
If you don't give your lager that diacetyl rest, you'll notice the difference, won't you Pete?

Regards,
Lindsay.


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## geoffi (4/3/08)

I've done about 10 lagers and Pilseners I'd say. I've normally done two weeks primary, racked to a cube and lagered for four weeks, then bottled. This has worked very well.

The last couple I've racked into party kegs to naturally carbonate for a couple of weeks, then into the fridge for serving.

I've noticed that the time the beer spends in the fridge after carbonation really transforms it. A Helles I have on at the moment has been sitting in there for about a week, and in that time it's gone from OK to bloody brilliant. It's smoothed out, a few slightly off flavours have disappeared, the maltiness is shining through.

The lesson for me is that patience pays big time with these beers. Malt, hops, yeast and time. It's a PITA to have to wait so long for the finished beer, but if you're prepared to wait you will be rewarded.


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## Peter Wadey (4/3/08)

Lindsay Dive said:


> bconnery,
> 
> I reckon you're the first to point this out. And one facet of brewing fine lager that I feel is important.
> If you don't give your lager that diacetyl rest, you'll notice the difference, won't you Pete?
> ...




My friend makes a lot of lager, and juggling fermenters, managed to 
keg 2 fermenters worth of Pils without giving them a diacetyl rest
1st. The result? Not happy Jan!

Who wants to go to the trouble of krausening their
kegged beer to get rid of it?

Yep, skip the diacetyl rest at your peril (IMHO).

Pete


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## geoffi (4/3/08)

I've always done DR for these. Two days at about 20c. I don't know if it really has done anything, but considering the time a lager takes, two days in not long.


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## deevee (4/3/08)

I don't do diacetyl rests at all. And all I brew is Lagers using either 34/70 or 189 yeasts. I leave my beers conditioning (Naturally primed kegs) for at least 6 weeks and the beers are fantastic.


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## geoffi (4/3/08)

deevee said:


> I don't do diacetyl rests at all. And all I brew is Lagers using either 34/70 or 189 yeasts. I leave my beers conditioning (Naturally primed kegs) for at least 6 weeks and the beers are fantastic.



If you're priming kegs I agree there wouldn't be any point to it. Forced carbonating could be a different story.


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## deevee (4/3/08)

Priming does help clean the beer out but honestly I cannot detect any diacetyl after primary fermentation.

I usually pitch 2 sachets of dry yeast in 20 litres of wort (usually pitch 34/70 in one and 189 in another as I do double batches), ferment between 9 - 11c for up to 3 weeks and then leave it on the yeast cake for a furher week in the primary. If anything, there is acetaldehyde which slowly goes away in time.


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## goatherder (4/3/08)

No diacetyl rests necessary here either.

Pitch big, pitch cold, ferment cold. Diacetyl isn't a problem with the yeasts I use.


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## Gulf Brewery (4/3/08)

Hi 

Some general rules with lagers. Pitch 2x what you do for an ale and either
1) Pitch warm and bring down the wort to the ferment temperature before anaerobic fermentation starts (usually after 12 to 14 hours) OR
2) Pitch cold and bring up to ferment temperature.

Whichever way you do it, ferment around the mid temperature range for the yeast and you won't have any hassles.

Now you may need a diacetyle rest depending on whether or not you are sensitive to it. If you can't smell or taste it, then it isn't going to make a lot of difference. If you can smell or taste it AND it is present, then a few days diacetyl rest will remove it.

Cheers
Pedro


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## NeilArge (31/3/08)

Great set of photos, Trough Lolly. What would us newbies do without such dedicated and assiduous help?  
I have recently done my first AG and being an Armidalian with winter fast approaching (well, it always comes at the same speed but you get my point) I'm keen to try a lager of some sort. Conditions here a pretty ideal for conditioning lager this time of year. My question is: for a Munich Helles that I am going to attempt would you or anyone else here recommend a step-mash, or is it just not worth the hassle? I'm using a 50l 'stock pot' plus separate mash tun and lauter tun (all a bit improvised but what isn't?). Also, does anyone have a helles recipe that they have tried and found a success? I did see the one on the recipe DB.

Cheers all

Neil



Trough Lolly said:


> G'day Bridgee - there are three keys to making a good lager...Fresh Ingredients, Patience and Temperature Control.
> 
> For more info and pics on making a lager with batch sparge: Click on this link...
> 
> ...


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## Gerard_M (31/3/08)

Is It Hard To Brew An Ag Lager?

No

Cheers
Gerard


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## bindi (1/4/08)

Gerard_M said:


> Is It Hard To Brew An Ag Lager?
> 
> No
> 
> ...




+1 Just takes longer, easy as. :icon_cheers:


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## NeilArge (1/4/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> Great set of photos, Trough Lolly. What would us newbies do without such dedicated and assiduous help?
> I have recently done my first AG and being an Armidalian with winter fast approaching (well, it always comes at the same speed but you get my point) I'm keen to try a lager of some sort. Conditions here a pretty ideal for conditioning lager this time of year. My question is: for a Munich Helles that I am going to attempt would you or anyone else here recommend a step-mash, or is it just not worth the hassle? I'm using a 50l 'stock pot' plus separate mash tun and lauter tun (all a bit improvised but what isn't?). Also, does anyone have a helles recipe that they have tried and found a success? I did see the one on the recipe DB.
> 
> Cheers all
> ...



Still banging on about Munich helles, I came across a reasonable sounding recipe, but was a little puzzled by one of the hop additions: 'EKG hop pellets'. This is no doubt an idiotic question, but does this mean East Kent Golding pellets? If so, isn't this a bit strange to use as a basic bittering hop for this style of beer?

Cheers

Neil


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## bconnery (1/4/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> Still banging on about Munich helles, I came across a reasonable sounding recipe, but was a little puzzled by one of the hop additions: 'EKG hop pellets'. This is no doubt an idiotic question, but does this mean East Kent Golding pellets? If so, isn't this a bit strange to use as a basic bittering hop for this style of beer?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Neil


Yes and yes. 
I've no doubt it would be alright but you'd be far better of going with a classic german noble hop, or one of the new varieties of german hop. 
I've got the following recipe, it isn't 100% Helles, not strict to style I don't believe but it is close, and very nice. Take out the Vienna to be more true for a start...
There's a picture of it recently in the what's in the glass thread...

Batch Size: 21.00 L 
Boil Size: 32.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 11.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 34.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 70 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
1800.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 40.00 % 
1800.00 gm Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) Grain 40.00 % 
900.00 gm Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 20.00 % 
25.00 gm Smaragd [8.00 %] (40 min) Hops 22.8 IBU 
30.00 gm Smaragd [8.00 %] (10 min) Hops 11.3 IBU 
1 Pkgs SafLager West European Lager (DCL Yeast #SYeast-Lager 34/70)


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (1/4/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> Still banging on about Munich helles, I came across a reasonable sounding recipe, but was a little puzzled by one of the hop additions: 'EKG hop pellets'. This is no doubt an idiotic question, but does this mean East Kent Golding pellets? If so, isn't this a bit strange to use as a basic bittering hop for this style of beer?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Neil



I was happy with this one:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=286

Alternatively a grain bill of 95% Pils and 5% Melanoiden with a single infusion mash at 64-65C comes out pretty good.

Definately use a liquid yeast as well, WL 833 is to die for in this style. :icon_drunk: 

C&B
TDA


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## NeilArge (1/4/08)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> I was happy with this one:
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=286
> 
> Alternatively a grain bill of 95% Pils and 5% Melanoiden with a single infusion mash at 64-65C comes out pretty good.
> ...


Ta very much TDA. I have seen your recipe and, in fact, posed a question to you about it. To wit, did you try, or would you recommend a step mash for this or isn't it worth the hassle? I'll definitely try the liquid yeast.

Cheers

ToG


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## NeilArge (1/4/08)

Ta bconnery. Looks excellent.

Cheers

ToG



bconnery said:


> Yes and yes.
> I've no doubt it would be alright but you'd be far better of going with a classic german noble hop, or one of the new varieties of german hop.
> I've got the following recipe, it isn't 100% Helles, not strict to style I don't believe but it is close, and very nice. Take out the Vienna to be more true for a start...
> There's a picture of it recently in the what's in the glass thread...
> ...


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (1/4/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> Ta very much TDA. I have seen your recipe and, in fact, posed a question to you about it. To wit, did you try, or would you recommend a step mash for this or isn't it worth the hassle? I'll definitely try the liquid yeast.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ToG


ToG,

I would try a single infusion first. I had no probs with Weyermann Pils malt, well modified so really I don't see the need. I lager the Helles beers for 6 weeks and they always come up with good clarity.
Others may think differently.

C&B
TDA


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## agraham (1/4/08)

For my Helles i use the following:

4.5 KG Weyermann Pils
300G Weyermann Munich I
100G Weyermann Melanoidin

Single infusion @ 64 degrees, batch sparge.

20 IBU Hallertau

Wyeast 2308 @ 8 degrees.

Takes time but its worth it. Remember to pitch cold and you will get the right flavour profile.

With careful sanitation you can repitch another brew right on top of this and you will find that attenuation will improve and lag time will decrease. 

Let it sit in the keg for a month force carbonated and the malt flavours will mellow together and be nice and yummy.


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## NeilArge (1/4/08)

agraham said:


> For my Helles i use the following:
> 
> 4.5 KG Weyermann Pils
> 300G Weyermann Munich I
> ...



Thanks for excellent advice, TDA and AG. I can't wait to give both a go.

Cheers and ta again

ToG


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## NeilArge (2/4/08)

AG

Just a few questions: What size batch was this brew? Looks like a lot of malt for a 21l batch?
I'm not into kegging as yet but still with the trusty rusty brown long-necks - I assume that if it sits in the bottle for long enough after lagering the effect (taste) will be similar? Also, I've been seeing quote a few postings talking about the importance (or otherwise) of rests for DMS. I'm not 100% what this is about, but is it relevant to brewing a helles?

Cheers

ToG



agraham said:


> For my Helles i use the following:
> 
> 4.5 KG Weyermann Pils
> 300G Weyermann Munich I
> ...


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## agraham (2/4/08)

My recipe does enough for 1 keg, 19l or so. You can drop the Pils malt down to 3.8-4kg if you want lower alcohol content.

90 min boil is also recommended to keep away dms.

As for bottling you will be fine if you let the stand room temp for 2 or so weeks, then lager in the fridge for a month.


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## Hutch (2/4/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> AG
> 
> Just a few questions: What size batch was this brew? Looks like a lot of malt for a 21l batch?
> I'm not into kegging as yet but still with the trusty rusty brown long-necks - I assume that if it sits in the bottle for long enough after lagering the effect (taste) will be similar? Also, I've been seeing quote a few postings talking about the importance (or otherwise) of rests for DMS. I'm not 100% what this is about, but is it relevant to brewing a helles?
> ...



5kg grain for 21Ltrs seems perfectly normal to me (in case you're mistaking this recipe for malt extract ).

The rest is often required for Diacetyl, not DMS. Diacetyl is created in varying amounts by different lager yeasts, and has a butterscotch flavour often not welcome in many beer styles. DMS (Dimethyl Sulfide) is driven off during the boil, and has a cooked vegitable (corn, cabbage) smell (apparently).


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## NeilArge (2/4/08)

Dear AG and Hutch

Always best to think first, count with fingers and toes, before typing.... :unsure: 
Thanks to both of you. Of course, it looks right... I'm going to have a crack at your recipe, AG, just because I'd like to get this as close to type as possible (if that's right). I'll have a go at other versions after that.

Thanks again

ToG



agraham said:


> My recipe does enough for 1 keg, 19l or so. You can drop the Pils malt down to 3.8-4kg if you want lower alcohol content.
> 
> 90 min boil is also recommended to keep away dms.
> 
> As for bottling you will be fine if you let the stand room temp for 2 or so weeks, then lager in the fridge for a month.


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## browndog (2/4/08)

Hi Folks,
A lager newbie here with a lager newbie question, all the recipes seem to have pilsener as the base malt. Is it possible to use ale malt in a lager?

cheers

Browndog


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## bconnery (2/4/08)

Browndog, this is brewing. 
Anything is possible!

That aside. The answer is still yes. 
Pilsner malt may be a better choice, particularly for lighter lagers, but ale malt can still be used. 
Still, you could always just order enough for a batch to try out the difference if you don't want to dive in for a bag...


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## browndog (2/4/08)

bconnery said:


> Browndog, this is brewing.
> Anything is possible!
> 
> That aside. The answer is still yes.
> ...



Thanks for the reply Ben, I thought the malt may have been modified differently or some such.

cheers

Browndog


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## bconnery (2/4/08)

browndog said:


> Thanks for the reply Ben, I thought the malt may have been modified differently or some such.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog


I think it has, although I'm not sure, but that is still no reason why you can't go for it...
Pilsner or lager malt is generally lighter in colour and so is easier to get the desired colour and I believe many have a higher diastatic power but don't take that as gospel...


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## NeilArge (5/4/08)

There's almost certainly a thread about here dealing directly with liquid vs. dried yeast for lager brewing but I can't find it readily. Anyway, due to the expense of liquid yeast and the extra costs of getting them up here in rural NSW it's hard to justify their use. I know that you can culture a number of starters out of them but 'she who must be obeyed' isn't rapt with the idea of the fridge being filled up with lots of brown bottles on a more or less permanent basis. At the moment, I am trying to get a starter up of a saflager yeats I used to make a bohemian pilsener last year, but it is slow. I pitched some malt on the dregs three nights ago and it is just ever so slowly starting to push air through the airlock. I am making a helles later this next week. My question is: would you persist with this starter or just get fresh yeast? 

Cheers

ToG

of quote name='agraham' date='Apr 1 2008, 11:34 AM' post='299561']
For my Helles i use the following:

4.5 KG Weyermann Pils
300G Weyermann Munich I
100G Weyermann Melanoidin

Single infusion @ 64 degrees, batch sparge.

20 IBU Hallertau

Wyeast 2308 @ 8 degrees.

Takes time but its worth it. Remember to pitch cold and you will get the right flavour profile.

With careful sanitation you can repitch another brew right on top of this and you will find that attenuation will improve and lag time will decrease. 

Let it sit in the keg for a month force carbonated and the malt flavours will mellow together and be nice and yummy.
[/quote]


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (7/4/08)

TunofGrunt said:


> There's almost certainly a thread about here dealing directly with liquid vs. dried yeast for lager brewing but I can't find it readily. Anyway, due to the expense of liquid yeast and the extra costs of getting them up here in rural NSW it's hard to justify their use. I know that you can culture a number of starters out of them but 'she who must be obeyed' isn't rapt with the idea of the fridge being filled up with lots of brown bottles on a more or less permanent basis. At the moment, I am trying to get a starter up of a saflager yeats I used to make a bohemian pilsener last year, but it is slow. I pitched some malt on the dregs three nights ago and it is just ever so slowly starting to push air through the airlock. I am making a helles later this next week. My question is: would you persist with this starter or just get fresh yeast?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ...



Are you saying you are making this starter up from some slurry of Saflager you kept from last year or that you have cultured this out of a bottle of your Bo Pils?
I would taste the starter first to ensure the yeast is still okay. Personally though if it is an old yeast then go get a freshy if that is easy for you to do.
What temperature do you have your starter at btw?

C&B
TDA


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## NeilArge (7/4/08)

I made the starter from a bottle of bo pils I made last year, just using the last inch or so left after I'd drunk the rest. I'm not worried now as that starter is going terrifically. Big problem is I can't start brewing now until next weekend as that is when all the stars finally come into alignment (malt all finally turns up). But I have made another starter (same as for #1) and intend pitching both for the Helles. I've been letting the starter go at room temp. (c. 20C). I intend putting both starters in the fridge to get them down to the right pitching temp. Does that sound about right?

BTW, I don't have a fridge but am in the process of making a simple fermentation chiller using chipboard, polystyrene, a little electric fan and thermostat. I got the idea from the ESB website years ago and thought I'd have a go at it (son of fermentation chiller, to give the man his dues and IP!). Has anyone else tried one of these?

Cheers

ToG



THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> Are you saying you are making this starter up from some slurry of Saflager you kept from last year or that you have cultured this out of a bottle of your Bo Pils?
> I would taste the starter first to ensure the yeast is still okay. Personally though if it is an old yeast then go get a freshy if that is easy for you to do.
> What temperature do you have your starter at btw?
> 
> ...


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## NeilArge (12/4/08)

Hi agraham

I have just finished making a helles that is uncannily like your recipe. I just wnated to ask what OG did you get for yours? I ended up with an OG of 1.040 at c. 20C. Does this sound about right, or is my efficiency up to cactus? Looks and smells fantastic though! My second AG I must admit....

Cheers

Neil



agraham said:


> For my Helles i use the following:
> 
> 4.5 KG Weyermann Pils
> 300G Weyermann Munich I
> ...


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