# Toucan Imperial Ipa



## theredone (27/4/10)

ok so ive been toying with the idea of a toucan recipe for a while, and also with an IPA recipe for a bit. so..... y not kill 2 birds with one stone. repcipe is as follows, punched into ianh's spreadsheet

1xtin coopers IPA
1xtin coopers Australian pale ale
1xBE#2
.15kg carafoam
.5kg dex
20g cascade 60min
20g fuggles 60min
10g cascade 15min
10g fuggles 15min
20g cascade 5min
20g fuggles 5min
nottingham
in the spreadsheet this comes up as 7.6%alc in bottle and 80.5 IBU

the WHY....
-as i have said before the coopers pale with be2 is a great beer by itself so i figured it would be a good starting point.
-the carafoam i figure i will need as the high alc content will deminish head quality(i think)
-the fuggles i have seen in a few dif ipa recipes so i figured its a good way to go
-the cascade.... just cause i guess(im open to other suggestions)
-notto, as all those fermentables will need a hard working yeast to chew through them all yeah?

the questions....
-too much/too little carafoam? and will it actually improve head/retention that much?
-hop flavour fades with age in the bottle does it not? if correct what would be the recommended drinking age?(at a guess)

feel free to correct me or add recipe advice
cheers guys


----------



## katzke (27/4/10)

Not enough hops for an Imperail IPA.


----------



## theredone (27/4/10)

katzke said:


> Not enough hops for an Imperail IPA.



going off the spreadsheet imperials IBU range is from 60-100 so i figured in the middle would do


----------



## manticle (27/4/10)

Not sure how cascade and fuggles would work together. Target would work and be in keeping with the style and still give you some citrus (target is my newfound favourite English hop).

Not to say you can't try it though.

@katzke - keep in mind that the tins are pre-bittered.


----------



## theredone (27/4/10)

manticle said:


> Not sure how cascade and fuggles would work together. Target would work and be in keeping with the style and still give you some citrus (target is my newfound favourite English hop along).
> 
> Not to say you can't try it though.
> 
> @katzke - keep in mind that the tins are pre-bittered.




sounds good. will sub cascade for target


----------



## WarmBeer (27/4/10)

I personally wouldn't bother with the 60 min additions, as both cans are pre-bittered with iso-hop. Still, keep the 15min and 5 min additions.

I also don't know whether I'd mix Fuggles and Cascade. I get where you're coming from, brewing something "trans-atlantic", but IMO the Cascade will overwhelm the subtlety of the Fuggles. If you're going an American-style IIPA, go all US hops. Cascade marries real well with Amarillo. If you're going a UK IPA, use Fuggles and EKG.

Again, just my 1.8 cents worth.


----------



## theredone (27/4/10)

WarmBeer said:


> I personally wouldn't bother with the 60 min additions, as both cans are pre-bittered with iso-hop. Still, keep the 15min and 5 min additions.
> 
> I also don't know whether I'd mix Fuggles and Cascade. I get where you're coming from, brewing something "trans-atlantic", but IMO the Cascade will overwhelm the subtlety of the Fuggles. If you're going an American-style IIPA, go all US hops. Cascade marries real well with Amarillo. If you're going a UK IPA, use Fuggles and EKG.
> 
> Again, just my 1.8 cents worth.



cheers mate. wasnt too sure how they would go together. will update hop schedule for 15/5 min additions only of fuggles/target

ill fix u up 1.8 cents sometime


----------



## drsmurto (27/4/10)

I think you have all missed Katze's point.

Imperial IPAs are all about the hops, not just high IBUs but in your face flavour and aroma.

Most IIPA brewers would be adding several grams of hops per litre every 5 or so minutes from 20 mins to flameout.


----------



## theredone (27/4/10)

ok so modded hop scedule looks like this...

1xtin coopers IPA
1xtin coopers Australian pale ale
1xBE#2
.15kg carafoam
.5kg dex
20g target 15min
20g fuggles 15min
30g target 5min
30g fuggles 5min
nottingham
in the spreadsheet this comes up as 7.6%alc in bottle and 78.2 IBU


----------



## Fourstar (27/4/10)

katzke said:


> Not enough hops for an Imperail IPA.



100g of hops plus 75IBU~ from the two tins of hopped extract, i think he is close to the money! 

So a theoretical 155IBU @ 7.6% with a BU:GU ratio of approx 2:1. Niiiice! :icon_cheers: 

The carafoam wont just add dextrins it will also add a hightened malt flavour. I get a big huskiness and mild sweetness (malt sweetness, not crystal sweetness) from it. I say keep it as is, or up to 200g. In an AG batch i usually use 3-500g or 4-10%, use whatever suits your calculations.

Im tempted to brew myself a hop monster one day soon but sub majority of my 60 min IBUs with ISOhop. Maybe a 10IBU addition @ 60 min, then dump 100g @ 20, 0, whirlpool and 50g dryhop. All the IBU you need with none of the excessive hop matter in the bottom of the kettle!


----------



## manticle (27/4/10)

DrSmurto said:


> I think you have all missed Katze's point.
> 
> Imperial IPAs are all about the hops, not just high IBUs but in your face flavour and aroma.
> 
> Most IIPA brewers would be adding several grams of hops per litre every 5 or so minutes from 20 mins to flameout.



Easy to miss the way it was put forward. 
Not a lot of detail contained within.

However you're probably right - OP needs to look at hopbursting. I've only tried it twice but I recommend the complexity it brings.


----------



## theredone (27/4/10)

DrSmurto said:


> I think you have all missed Katze's point.
> 
> Imperial IPAs are all about the hops, not just high IBUs but in your face flavour and aroma.
> 
> Most IIPA brewers would be adding several grams of hops per litre every 5 or so minutes from 20 mins to flameout.



thanks doc
lets try again
1xtin coopers IPA
1xtin coopers Australian pale ale
1xBE#2
.2kg carafoam
.5kg dex
10g target 20min
10g fuggles 20min
10g target 15min
10g fuggles 15min
10g target 10min
10g fuggles 10min
10g target 5min
10g fuggles 5min
nottingham
in the spreadsheet this comes up as 7.6%alc in bottle and 77.4 IBU

contemplating mayber a 20g dry hop addition of each as well 

oh and also if hops still need to be upped a little i could drop the tin of ipa for an extra tin of pale. that will reduce ibu's a little so i can then up them with latter addition hops


----------



## Fourstar (27/4/10)

theredone said:


> in the spreadsheet this comes up as 7.6%alc in bottle and 77.4 IBU



remember you have 75~ IBU from the two tins as well @ 23L batch size.


----------



## theredone (27/4/10)

Fourstar said:


> remember you have 75~ IBU from the two tins as well @ 23L batch size.




im not sure i follow. when i put all the info into the spreadsheet at a 10l boil it comes up at 77.4

the pale tin contributes 18.5 of this
and the ipa tin contributes 38.6


----------



## Fourstar (27/4/10)

theredone said:


> im not sure i follow. when i put all the info into the spreadsheet at a 10l boil it comes up at 77.4
> 
> the pale tin contributes 18.5 of this
> and the ipa tin contributes 38.6



looks like your calc is wrong. here is why.

Coopers use all of their calcuations on their site as the value per KG, NOT their TIN value.

See: http://coopers.com.au/media/61084/brewing_faqs.pdf

E.G. The Pale Ale is written up as 340IBU. * that by 1.7kg and divide by your batch volume, that gives you: 25IBU~

IPA, 710IBU * 1.7 / 23 = 52IBU~

So a total of the two cans is 77IBU.

Ontop of that, add your boil hops. so its well above that.


----------



## theredone (27/4/10)

right
i had no idea.... i thought the spreadsheet might take this into consideration.

but anyways guys hows the recipe looking atm? 

notto is a good pick? 

and going of what fourstar has said this means that ibu is at about 96


----------



## katzke (28/4/10)

manticle said:


> Easy to miss the way it was put forward.
> Not a lot of detail contained within.
> 
> However you're probably right - OP needs to look at hopbursting. I've only tried it twice but I recommend the complexity it brings.



Glad the point was recognized by DrSmurto.

Basic brewing, hops are used for flavor, aroma, and bittering.

An IPA needs at least a flame out addition. Dry hop or hop tea is also a good idea. The key to a good IPA is the balance of bitterness, Malt, and hop flavor/aroma. This is supposed to be an Imperial IPA so will require more hop at the end to balance the high alcohol and malt profile. If this were not an imperial it would be closer to an ESB then an IPA. 

It still needs more hops. Not just in the middle but in the end. If the style you want is an American IPA you need 3 to 4 times more hops and high on the "C" hops. For an English IPA maybe 2 to 3 times more hops. For an Imperial IPA you need to push the hops up there. 

Can not help with when or how much to add, as I am not familiar with using hopped extract. In the end brew what you think you like and if it is not as hoppy as expected you can add dry hops or brew it different next time.

Edited because I forgot you were trying for an Imperial IPA.


----------



## theredone (11/5/10)

ok so i just picked up all the ingreadients.

just need a little advice on hop schedule. from what ive picked up so far i want to stick to 30 or less additions and i want to stagger them at 5min intervals. my question is though, do i seperate the hops into: target early(ie 30mins -15mins) and then go the fuggles late(15-0), or should i just go an even mix of each the whole way through the boil? i would also be dry hopping at least some fuggles but would the target go well as dry hopping? or is it purely for bittering?

im will probly stick with the carafoam(this is carapils right?) but i also have some TF pale if someone thinks this might go better.

now to make up the wort boil gravity can i get away with using BE#2? or does it have to be malt?

cheers guys. just going to go put down Neil's centarillo then ill get back to this one this arvo


----------



## WarmBeer (11/5/10)

The usual thinking is to use your higher %AA hops for bittering, and your more refined, and generally lower %AA, hops for flavour/aroma. So yes, use the Target, traditionally a bittering hop, in your early kettle additions, and then follow up with Fuggles. But, hey, brewing is all about experimenting, so why not try the 50/50 mix? Who knows, you might stumble across something great.

Now, second point. Taken this is a twocan thread, I assume you're doing a dump'n'stir along with some steeped specialty malts. In this case, you won't be able to use the "TF pale" malt, as it needs to be mashed in order to convert it's starches into fermentable sugars. You could feasibly "steep" this malt on the stovetop at around 65 degrees for about 60 mins in order to perform the conversion, this is kind of a "partial mash" situation. The carafoam (yup, also known as cara-pils) doesn't add any (real) flavour, but aids body and head retention. Given you're going a twocan, I don't think you're going to need more body.

Thirdly, yup, BE2, a mix of Malt Dextrose and Maltodextrin (IIRC), can be used to bring up the gravity just as easily as using ordinary malt extract. The dextrose will ferment out completely, but the maltodextrose won't ferment, so I guess you would get about the same FG as if you used all malt extract, but a bit less malty taste.

Good luck, and good brewing.


----------



## RobboMC (11/5/10)

As you know BE2 is half malt with maltodextrine and dextrose. Somewhere here is the exact proportions but it doesn't matter much.

The maltodextrine will help with head retention, but the dextrose is just adding alcohol without flavour.
You are going to a lot of effort with all those wonderful hop additions, why waste some of that effort with dex.
I'd make it all malt and use dme instead. You've got plenty of bitterness in your two cans, so even
a whole can of liquid malt extract would be good.This would also give you something to boil your hops in rather
than boiling some of a kit ( unless that is your aim )

I did a standard IPA last year that was like this:
23 litres 7.3% abv
one can of Morgans IPA kit, 
one can of liquid light malt extract
1kg of Caramalt liquid extract
1/2 kg Munich grain mini-mash
1/2 kg Crystal grain mini-mash

Even all this wasn't excessiveley sweet or malty
and I only added 15g of Fuggles as bittering hops.

I won't bore you with the hop schedule because your's is much better
and I'll be borrowing it for my next one.

I watered some of this down to 3.5% abv for bottling and my mother reckons it's the best 
mid-alcohol beer she's ever had so I'm pretty pleased with it.

Steep in some light crystal grain as well IMHO, even if you only do 1/4 kg it will improve your beer;
and the smells coming from that wee small amount of wort you get will only encourage you to make better beer.


----------



## zebba (11/5/10)

theredone said:


> i would also be dry hopping at least some fuggles but would the target go well as dry hopping? or is it purely for bittering?


I'd be careful with your quantities dry hopping with Fuggles. For many people the earthy, almost musty aroma dry hopped fuggles produce can be a bit much. Personally, I LOVE it, but many don't, and if I was looking at an IIPA like this I would be using something different for the dry hop, or just dryhopping a little bit of fuggles (20g or less) and matching it with something else (I'm thinking Styrian Goldings would work well).

(Haven't used Target so can't comment on it)

(And if Warm Beers advice is worth 1.8cents, mines probably worth 1.5 or less. But I do so love my hops, and they occupy 90% of my thoughts...)

Of course, the easier option is to move away from the english side of the atlantic and do the cliched thing - load her up with yankee hops like cascade, amarillo, etc. Got a throat tearer at home (theoretical IBU's came out > 200) that used stupid amounts of cascade, amarillo and simcoe (with some leftover galaxy thrown in for good measure). I rate it in my top 5 beers of all time. Not homebrewed beers, beers full stop. mmmm....


----------



## theredone (11/5/10)

nice replies ok so soaked up a little more info. in heindsight i might have been better going with fuggles and ekg but hey ive already got the target so lets go for the 50/50 hop scedule and c how it goes. think i will also steep some of my TF pale for 60mins along with the carapils. not so much for body but more so just for a nice head and retention, all previous beers have had SFA retention even though some ove them come out of the bottle damn near spewin the frothy goodness. plus it was pointed out that the carapils can give a nice bit of flavour, but anyways, we will see how it goes. oh and i subbed out dex for LDME. so here goes complete recipe(will be putting this down in about 2 hours so yell at me real fast if it looks like ive done something wrong) :S

1xtin coopers IPA
1xtin coopers Australian pale ale
1xBE#2
.2kg carafoam
.2kg TF pale
.5kg LDME
10g target 30
10g fuggles 30
10g target 25
10g fuggles 25
10g target 20min
10g fuggles 20min
10g target 15min
10g fuggles 15min
10g target 10min
10g fuggles 10min
10g target 5min
10g fuggles 5min
dry hop 20g fuggles
dry hop 20g target
7.6% alc
rehydrated notto and will be fermenting 16-18


still cant realy get the spreadsheat to work properly i dont think. ive had a look at 3 ibu calculators and they all come out dif.
but going off what i think looks about right in the spreadsheet the hops alone will add 25.2IBU and the cans as Fourstar said will add 77 so total of 102.2...... bit of kick there


----------



## WarmBeer (11/5/10)

I personally wouldn't bother with the TF pale malt, especially in such small amounts. You're going to have to go to all the effort of holding your minimash at about 65 degrees to get full conversion, all for the same gravity addition that an extra 160gm of LDME would give. That small amount of base malt in a twocan is going to contribute SFA flavour. But hey, maybe you're a masochist 

As RobboMC said, if you've got some crystal malts hanging around, use em. You just need to soak them for about 30 mins, and don't need to be anywhere near as fussy about maintaining temperature. I used to just put 200gm of crystal in 2lt of water in a pot, put it on the lowest flame on my stove, and come back 30 mins later, turn it off, tip the liquid through a sieve to collect all the grain.

How large is your boil volume going to be?


----------



## theredone (11/5/10)

WarmBeer said:


> I personally wouldn't bother with the TF pale malt, especially in such small amounts. You're going to have to go to all the effort of holding your minimash at about 65 degrees to get full conversion, all for the same gravity addition that an extra 160gm of LDME would give. That small amount of base malt in a twocan is going to contribute SFA flavour. But hey, maybe you're a masochist
> 
> As RobboMC said, if you've got some crystal malts hanging around, use em. You just need to soak them for about 30 mins, and don't need to be anywhere near as fussy about maintaining temperature. I used to just put 200gm of crystal in 2lt of water in a pot, put it on the lowest flame on my stove, and come back 30 mins later, turn it off, tip the liquid through a sieve to collect all the grain.
> 
> How large is your boil volume going to be?



lol not quite a masochist
normally when i steep i get temp to 70 then lid on and cover with 2 big thick towels. come out to me no lower than 62. but yeah i might try leaving on the lowest temp setting and c how that goes. plus i steep in a grain bag so no need for sieveing and i can rinse through a bit more hot water(sparging?) if i feel so inclined

boild volume is a bit under 5l normally add a bit over 4l of water then 400g DME, have never taken sample to check but by my calcs this should bring og up to 1.046(ish) 

edit: just thinking of hop utilization, because im doing a brew with higher og does my boil grav need to match this(or close to)? meaning i need to add an extra 150g of dme?


----------



## WarmBeer (11/5/10)

With that sort of temperature control, you're going to get some, to maybe most of the base malts converted. You're probably not likely to get full conversion, which means you might get starches left in the wort. It's nothing to be super worried about, but if your beer comes out slightly cloudy, that's probably the reason why.

Using such a small volume boil means you're going to get less than optimum hop utilisation. It's a bit more of an ask, but can you bump your boil volume up to about 8-10 litres? You're throwing in all these beautiful hops, but due to the concentrated volume of your boil, you're going to miss out on getting a lot of the alpha compounds into solution. I used to put a couple of sanitised tupperware containers full of water in the fridge over night, and once I'd finished boiling my 10 lt volume, chuck those in the pot to help bring the wort down towards pitching temp. The other trick was to have about 10 lt of water in the fridge overnight to top up your fermenter, rather than tap water. This also helps reach a good temperature.

For a 5lt boil volume, 500gm of LDME should give you a gravity of roughly 1.040. If you decide to go the 10 lt boil, chuck in the 500gm LDME and also 500 gm of BE2, should be close enough.

Whatever you do, you're going to end up with good beer, and it'll be your beer, so go for it.



theredone said:


> lol not quite a masochist
> normally when i steep i get temp to 70 then lid on and cover with 2 big thick towels. come out to me no lower than 62. but yeah i might try leaving on the lowest temp setting and c how that goes. plus i steep in a grain bag so no need for sieveing and i can rinse through a bit more hot water(sparging?) if i feel so inclined
> 
> boild volume is a bit under 5l normally add a bit over 4l of water then 400g DME, have never taken sample to check but by my calcs this should bring og up to 1.046(ish)
> ...


----------



## theredone (11/5/10)

yeah its not the cooling of the wort that is the problem. i asked the old girl to grab me a pot last time she went to do the shopping but apparently coles dont sell big ones. so im making do with what i have atm untill i get off my arse and go get a good pot from kmart or something 
edit: cheers for all your help too lads


----------



## theredone (17/5/10)

just did my dry hop and boy it smells strong in there. i had 30g of each left so i chucked them all in. i dont think it would make it all that undrinkable. plus im going to leave these for min 1-2 months before drinking to let flavours settle. 

cheers again for the help lads i will post on taisting

p.s. i did drop the tf pale as advised and its actually been fermenting at 12-16 as per stick on thermometer so probly more like 14-18 inside


----------



## theredone (15/6/10)

theredone said:


> nice replies ok so soaked up a little more info. in heindsight i might have been better going with fuggles and ekg but hey ive already got the target so lets go for the 50/50 hop scedule and c how it goes. think i will also steep some of my TF pale for 60mins along with the carapils. not so much for body but more so just for a nice head and retention, all previous beers have had SFA retention even though some ove them come out of the bottle damn near spewin the frothy goodness. plus it was pointed out that the carapils can give a nice bit of flavour, but anyways, we will see how it goes. oh and i subbed out dex for LDME. so here goes complete recipe(will be putting this down in about 2 hours so yell at me real fast if it looks like ive done something wrong) :S
> 
> 1xtin coopers IPA
> 1xtin coopers Australian pale ale
> ...



ok so 2 week taisting is today(as i type). very bitter, but not a bad, dry your mouth out bitter, quite pleasant. there is a little bit of bite from the high alc but nothing like what i was expecting. the only thin im realy unipressed with is the amount of hop flavour. maybe next time i should us more later in the boil less early. colour is quite spectacular as well. a very dark red/brown..... almost like and irish red. anyways ima leave it condition for another month and c how it goes then


----------

