# Is It Worth Buying A Heater Pad? My Cider Wont Ferment!



## lukemarsh (16/5/10)

I've had no troubles brewing ales before as I started brewing around christmas this year so it has been warm enough for the yeast. I brew in my underground cellar which stays at a constant 21 - 22 degrees C. Now it's just hitting winter it's at around 18 degrees C, which is undesirable for, well, anything! Because you need under 15 for lagers (I use my old fridge) and above 18 for ales. So generally speaking, I'm a bit screwed at the moment.

I've looked into various ways to heat my fermenter and it appears that the only easy and safe way to do so is buying a heat pad or belt. These cost between $50 and $65 from my local HBS.

Is it worth paying that much to keep your brew heated through winter or are these gadgets just a waste of time and money? I've got a cider going that I brewed Saturday and it's sitting at 18 degrees, and hasn't bubbled or formed much condensation under the lid yet. If I need a heat pad or belt I'd like to get one tomorrow so I can get this cider going, I was just hoping someone could either give me reason to invest in one or convince me not to and offer a cheaper/more effective means of brew heating.

Cheers!


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## bum (16/5/10)

Your conditions sound pretty much spot on for most ale yeasts to me. 

You don't mention what yeast you're using for your cider. I can't think of any off the top of my head that would be dead asleep at 18c. And trust not yon duplicitous bubbler. Take a gravity reading to check for fermentation.

I'd suggest that a heat pad or similar might pretty much be an essential bit of kit for winter brewing in Adelaide. Just read up on how to use it without stuffing your brew.


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## lukemarsh (16/5/10)

Hmm, it would seem they're good for ale yeasts but my luck tends to fail me every single brew! I can't ever get a brew past a reading of 1.020! The only time I did was with my ginger beer, but that was only after I put this yeast kicking stuff that made the yeast go bonkers and brought it right down to 1.000.

Also, the fermentation for anything will be incredibly slow if I brew at 18c... and the cider's only been on for 24 hours too, so I should probably give it a bit more time before I declare the yeast asleep on the job.

Does adding more yeast do any good?


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## jiesu (16/5/10)

Maybe it is worth giving your wort a gentle (sterile) stir about 7 days into your primary. That should get it down an extra few points and maybe see what you can about moving it into the house for the last 2 days or so of ferment just to finish her off.


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## Verbyla (16/5/10)

If your brews are all stuffing up and not fermenting out properly it would more than likely be due to something your doing wrong rather than the yeast. I'm pretty sure 18C is an ideal temperature to brew an ale so that can't be the problem.

Are you pitch your yeast dry or are you making a starter? What temperature are the yeast being pitched at? 

When brewing a cider it's always a good idea to throw in some yeast nutrient to keep them healthy.


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## kelbygreen (16/5/10)

yeah I would wait I put my brew down at 4pm and its just starting to kick off now can see the krausen starting to form. what recipes are finishing at 1.020??? hard to say without knowing what your putting in it if thats to high but sounds it for most beers


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## jakub76 (16/5/10)

I wish I had a stable 18 somewhere in my house. I ferment most ales at 17 or 18. If there's a problem with your cider its definately not the temperature. I suggest giving the lid a good tighten, I've had brews that seemed dormant but all the CO2 was getting out through the thread instead of the airlock. 
Also next time make a starter so you know you're pitching active yeast. I did pitch more yeast after 2 days without activity once and it turned out fine but I'm pretty sure it was just a leak around the lid.


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## manticle (16/5/10)

MarshBrew said:


> I've had no troubles brewing ales before as I started brewing around christmas this year so it has been warm enough for the yeast. I brew in my underground cellar which stays at a constant 21 - 22 degrees C. Now it's just hitting winter it's at around 18 degrees C, which is undesirable for, well, anything! Because you need under 15 for lagers (I use my old fridge) and above 18 for ales. So generally speaking, I'm a bit screwed at the moment.
> 
> I've looked into various ways to heat my fermenter and it appears that the only easy and safe way to do so is buying a heat pad or belt. These cost between $50 and $65 from my local HBS.
> 
> ...



Yeast and recipe dependent but 18 degrees is fine for cider.

I ferment mine slowly around 12 -14 degrees wih white wine yeast.

Ciders don't offer up the same intensity of visible fermentation symptoms as beer so the only way to be sure is to check gravity. If it's dropping then its fermenting. If it's not dropping, give it a gentle swirl, drop in some yeast nutrient and wrap the fermenter in a blanket or sleeping bag.


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## michaelcocks (16/5/10)

jakub76 said:


> I wish I had a stable 18 somewhere in my house. I ferment most ales at 17 or 18. If there's a problem with your cider its definately not the temperature. I suggest giving the lid a good tighten, I've had brews that seemed dormant but all the CO2 was getting out through the thread instead of the airlock.
> Also next time make a starter so you know you're pitching active yeast. I did pitch more yeast after 2 days without activity once and it turned out fine but I'm pretty sure it was just a leak around the lid.



18c is perfect for ales

if you are not getting below 1020 check you recipe the the type and health of yeast
are you pitching the correct amount?

Also try rousing the yeast about half way home


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## Scruffy (16/5/10)

Dude, we'd love to help, but you need to tell us a few things.

i. What ingredients are you using? Apple juice from pressed apples (if so, what type of apples and how many)? Apple juice from Coles (if so, how much - volume not cost! - and what brand)? Or a kit... or an assumption...
ii. What yeast are you using?
iii. How much have you made?
iv. Which Saturday did you start, a Saturday in March might be some cause for concern - yeast wise, Yesterday...? Jees!

There are a couple of schools of thought concerning yeast nutrients, personally if I'm doing a cider, then nope, just the apples, they all turn out drinkable. But some add stuff (even DME...).


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## lukemarsh (18/5/10)

Well, I just went ahead today and bought meself a heater pad... that's $60 gone on this heating business.

My ingredients are
- Black Rock cider (used the yeast under the lid)
- 500g dextrose
- 300g lactose
- 2L fresh apple juice (juiced myself using two 1.5kg bags of Granny Smith apples)

I pitched the yeast dry at around 24c... might have been 26c, can't quite remember.
It then dropped down to 18c overnight and did nothing. No scum ring, no airlock bubbling. Just nothin.
I put the heat pad on today at around lunchtime and since then (it's 11.30pm now) the airlock has shown signs of bubbling and there is a noticable ring above the brew surface.

And Scruffy, it was Saturday just gone (15th May) that I put the brew on... about lunchtime.

I found that when I made an alcoholic ginger beer a while ago it did bugger all until I moved the fermenter into the laundry where it was about 25c... then it fermented better. I also added some yeast stuff (nutrient I believe) that made the fermentation go crazy and brought it from 1.020 to 1.000 in a matter of days (I think I mentioned this at the start of this topic)


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## bum (18/5/10)

Keep an eye on that pad, MarshBrew. It is really easy to get up into the 30s with one of these. 

I find it pretty much essential to use mine at the peak of winter here in Melbourne but I would never trust it to look after itself. Watch it like a hawk.


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## petesbrew (18/5/10)

Yeah. I've only used a heat belt once, but stick it on a timer from what I hear.


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## HoppingMad (18/5/10)

Marshbrew, Put your heater pad on one of these: Thermostat

I've got one and they do the job nicely.

You'll see them on ebay all the time, at grainandgrape, and also a few different ones on a site called ibrew.

Then you can properly control your temp. The pads don't come with a controller, and cooking your brew at 30 degrees is a waste of good cider - it will wind up tasting like toenail polish. You need it brewing within the right temp range so it's clean and tasty (most yeasts of the ale variety that means 18-22, but check your yeast instructions or check with the LHBS). 

I know this will up the cost of your outlay, but the result will be heaps better.

Hopper.

P.S - A fast ferment, and vigorous bubbling is not necessarily the sign of a good brew. Often slow and steady is best. Airlocks going crazy and bubbling like mad can be a sign of cooking your beer too high. 25 degrees is way too high for an ale. You're going to wind up with home brew 'twang'. Ferment lower and it will be cleaner. Start your brew high if you like (around 22 to get it going), but once it's bubbling, set it back to proper ale temperatures or you will notice it in the taste later.


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## BrenosBrews (18/5/10)

- Black Rock cider (used the yeast under the lid)

I Haven't made a cider with a Black Rock can, or any cider for that matter. But I have used a couple of their ale cans including their yeast in the early days of my homebrew life and had issues getting them to attenuate properly. The yeast could be buggered?


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## WSC (18/5/10)

HoppingMad said:


> Marshbrew, Put your heater pad on one of these: Thermostat
> 
> I've got one and they do the job nicely.
> 
> ...



Where do you place the probe? Taped to the side of the fermenter, in the fermenter?


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## Yob (18/5/10)

A good rule of thumb for Heat Pads is... Put it on a timer!!! Hour on, Hour off to gently raise the temps, when you see the temp starting to rise, shut off for 2 hours and check again... it's REAL easy to cook ya brew with these bad boys (yep I've done it...) so take a bit of care and you should be sweet.

Good Timer bout $20 and you dont have to wait for delivery :icon_drunk: 

I have my heat pad under my fermenter in the fridge, this way + or - in temp is no issue.

Cheers
:icon_cheers:


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## lukemarsh (19/5/10)

Since monday (when I bought and applied the heater pad) the brew has been sitting at 25 to 26 deg. I'm assuming this is not good after what you've all been saying!

I'll turn it off today and see if it's still going strong when the temp decreases. I am betting that with my luck fermentation will stall when the temp goes down! What should I do if this happens?


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## HoppingMad (20/5/10)

WSC said:


> Where do you place the probe? Taped to the side of the fermenter, in the fermenter?



You can do either. It's up to you. Both methods work. 

A third option is you can use the probe in a fridge, effectively heating up the ambient temp around your fermenter. Doing it this way though you tend not to sit the fermenter directly on the pad, but stick it on its side beside the fermenter.

I use the last method myself heating the air in a closed fridge space around the drum. Less fluctuations of temp in an insulated spot like a fridge.

Many people do put the probes in the fermenter. This is made easier if you don't use an airlock/lid and simply usea glad wrap and a rubber band over the top of your fermenter (successful homebrewers like Brendo do this). 

To confuse you even further there is another option you also have for temp control - 'aquarium heaters' these are submersible heaters you can place into your wort and control the temp directly. Most are available on ebay for $8 - $20. But ideally you want one of these that can give you a temp at least as low as 20 degrees so you can do ales. If you have one that gets you to 18 degrees even better, but some of the cheaper Hong Kong models won't go below 20.

Hopper.


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## HoppingMad (20/5/10)

MarshBrew said:


> Since monday (when I bought and applied the heater pad) the brew has been sitting at 25 to 26 deg. I'm assuming this is not good after what you've all been saying!
> 
> I'll turn it off today and see if it's still going strong when the temp decreases. I am betting that with my luck fermentation will stall when the temp goes down! What should I do if this happens?



Checking around online the Blackrock cider yeast appears to be ideally brewed at 23-28 degrees according to the technical specs. So you're right in the middle and in a good place.

If you get ferment stalling, it's an easy fix - raise the temp and brew will resume.

Sorry if I gave you a bum steer, my earlier comments were for temps of beer (18-22 ale temps ideal for avoiding twangy flavours). Have only done a handful of ciders and not using blackrock yeast.

Cheers and apologies,

Hopper.


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## bum (20/5/10)

Most kits will say the same temps, HoppingMad, and most of them would be pretty much wrong. I don't think you've sent him too far wrong at all. Especially with a cider - I like to run them as cool as the yeast will allow. Off flavours stick out like dog's balls in a cider.


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## manticle (20/5/10)

I agree with Bum. Slower cooler ferments make better cider. It's a long time since I made a kit cider (actually a while since I did cider at all but with cooler weather I intend to get one down before July) but my experience is that treating it a bit like a lager is preferable.


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## lukemarsh (22/5/10)

No worries Hopper! I've learnt alot from this thred... never really bothered to look much into temperature for different beers and heater pads etc until lately. I was told by the guy at my LHBS that with the heat pads they're mainly good for using at the end of a brew fermentation, to just finish it off, not so much to start a brew. Considering I have good temps in my brew cellar but all of my beers stall at around 1.020, I reckon heat pad should do the trick to finish off beers that stall at 20 right?

Should I keep the cider at 25 - 26 deg constantly by using the heat pad or leave it fermenting at 18 - 19 deg? I turned the heat pad off a couple of days ago and the brew has kept at 18 - 19 deg and is still bubbling away... Or should I just heat it up when the brew stops above the predicted FG (which knowing my luck it will) to finish it off?

EDIT: just read manticle and bum's posts after I posted this... so 18 deg is good but will take longer, and if it stalls just turn the heat on to kick it off again?


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