# My First Cerveza



## fletcher (22/9/12)

getting my fermenting fridge set up soon, to be able to properly ferment a lager at the right temperature and i'd like to try a cerveza.

i've got:

1.7kg coopers cerveza can

500g malt}
250g maltodextrin} these three in a pack
250g dextrose}

1kg dextrose

US-05 dry yeast 

i put it into the spreadsheet and it looks okay so far albeit on the 'very malty' side of the scale. would adding hops bring it back to a nice balance? i've never added hops (or anything else) to a brew, and never done any stove top steeping and that sort of stuff. i'd like to, but would probably need some basic (read: hardcore lamens terms) advice on how to do it


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## crd0902 (22/9/12)

If yOu want to try a simple hops addition just put a cup full of boiling water add ya hops , either like a tea bag or throw the pellets in, let it sit for few minutes and throw the lot into the brew. Good step into starting hops before doing stove tops. Also you can dry hop which is put some hops into the brew after about 5 days of fermenting and let it go. As for what hops I'm not sure for a cerveza. Do a google search and see what ya come up with.
Chris


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## slash22000 (22/9/12)

That is a crapload of dextrose. It will add a huge amount of alcohol but contribute nothing to flavour and it will make the beer very thin in the mouth. Perhaps try 500g dry malt and then dextrose up to ABV.


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## fletcher (22/9/12)

aaah yeah fair enough. i wanted one with a wee bit of a kick, but i think you're right in that it will be too high in alc content and very thin. i might cut that second 1kg back of dextrose in half


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## yum beer (23/9/12)

I agree, cut the dex in half and add an extra 500gm of LDM.
The coopers cerveza really benefits from the extra malt.

I usually add 1kg LDM, 500 gm dextrose. Nice balance of malty taste, good alc level and thin,light body.


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## JakeSm (23/9/12)

Try some saaz hop in your cerveza, its what i used to use and tasted fantastic. Just leave it in some boiling water as mention and you will be happy.


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## fletcher (23/9/12)

thanks guys, i'll have a play around.

@yum beer - the 500gm of LDM (that's liquid right?) is that another tin of goo just with no hops and whatever else added?

@jakeSm - sorry to ask a stupid question, but exactly how would i add them? would i leave them in boiling water for 5 or 10 mins, then drain it and add it to my fermenter with the rest of the stuff? coffee plunger kind of thing?


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## crd0902 (23/9/12)

Ldm is light dry malt. It's powder. Lme is liquid malt extract, your tin of goo. If you put the hops in the boiling water for 5 minutes you can either tip the whole lot in or strain it off or remove the tea bag depending how you buy the hops. Some people don't like the hop sludge in the brew but if I buy them in a bag I rip it open and put the whole lot of sludge into the brew. When the ferment has finish I crash chill which drops all the sludge and sediment out so I have no hop particles floating


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## fletcher (23/9/12)

thanks for that clarification mate!! 

easy done. i'll know what to ask for now...i need to write myself a little reference sheet for all the acronyms til i get used to em!

i might try the pellets of hops so i'l look to boil them and then strain (coffee plunger) and tip them in the fermenter when i add the other junk.


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## crd0902 (23/9/12)

Look uP ahb abbreviations there's a whole list on here


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## fletcher (25/9/12)

ok, so i've tailored my ingredients and i had a few more questions; thank you for being patient with a new home brewer...i'd rather not mess it up first if i can help it. got looking at a few sites (howtobrew.com) and other threads on here that mention secondary fermenting for lagers and probably read _too_ much info which got me thinking. anyways - 

ingredients:

1.7kg Coopers Mexican Cerveza can
500gm LDM
250gm Maltodextrin
600gm Dextrose
12gm Saaz pellets
S23 Yeast
19L ferment @ 12 degrees
bottling using carb drops, in 740mL PET 

at this stage because it's incredibly hard to mix the dry ingredients and make sure they're dissolved in the jerry can fermenter, my aim was to mix and measure temps of initial ingredients before pitching, in my coopers fermenter (which doesn't fit in bar fridge). once everything was mixed and added, i'd pour into the jerry can and aerate the wort, and finally pitch yeast. 

my problems arise when adding the hops. i know saaz are normally used for flavouring, so do i just keep em (as others have said), in water and after 10-15 mins, dump them into the fermenter too? 
wouldn't that prolong their bitterness if kept the entire fermenting time? 
or should i add them initially in the mixing of ingredients with the boiling water and then take them out after 15 mins for my desired bitterness/flavour according to the time in the spreadsheet? 
what's the difference between taking them out and keeping them in?

when fermenting, i understand i keep the temp at 12 degrees or 10 or thereabouts, and then once FG is stable over a few days, raise the temperature for diacetyl rest, up to approx 20ish degrees? leave this for approx 3-4 days, then bottle and store/age again at 12 degrees for however long.

how does that sound? just confused with hop additions and the lagering process 

thanks in advance for anyone who can answer my newbie questions.

brewlove


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## yum beer (25/9/12)

Hey Fletcher,
for best utilization of you hops,
mix 2 litres of water with 200 grams of LDM, bring to the boil, add your hops for 10 mins.
Strain this liquid into your fermenter and use in place of your initial hot water..do not add the hops to your fermenter ( in my opinion. IMO , you will get too much flavour
for a cerveza by adding the hops in, it works in stronger flavoured beers but leave it for now.)

Brew at low temps till steady, then raise for D-rest leave 3 days then drop temp to 1-2 degrees for a week or 3. Then bottle.

I have found the Cerveza is best drank after about 3-4 weeks in the bottle or left for 4 months plus. It starts out fresh and clean then seems to pick up a twang in the bottle that takes a while to smooth back out, try them regularly and when good get into them. Ole'


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## fletcher (25/9/12)

yum beer said:


> Hey Fletcher,
> for best utilization of you hops,
> mix 2 litres of water with 200 grams of LDM, bring to the boil, add your hops for 10 mins.
> Strain this liquid into your fermenter and use in place of your initial hot water..do not add the hops to your fermenter ( in my opinion. IMO , you will get too much flavour
> ...



thanks mate! that's exactly what i needed  sounds perfect


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## fletcher (9/10/12)

@yum beer

just checked and my fridge won't get lower than about 6 degrees - is this a normal bar fridge temp at it's lowest?. is there any disadvantage of NOT crash chilling after D-rest? Could i drop to as low as it can go after D-rest? and if so what would the time frames be?

sorry to be a pain. got a fridge and STC1000 and it's all up and running, but can't get below that for some reason. i'm guessing it could if i removed some part of the fridge's electro-goodie-bits but i'd have to get a sparky for that i'm assuming.

EDIT: it's getting lower...just taking it's time. ugh. i'll edit later once the lowest temp is reached


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## yum beer (9/10/12)

Put it in that fridge as cold as it will go, you would prefer0.5 - 1 degree but if 6 is best you can get then that will do...would be suprised if it doesnt go to at least 3c though,
you may need to play with the setting in the fridge itself.
Leave it in there for a week to condition.


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## bignath (9/10/12)

on the fridges temp control (not the stc unit), do you have it cranked to it's coldest setting?


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## fletcher (9/10/12)

thanks guys, yeah I made sure the dial on the inside was at its lowest and this morning it was around the 3.4-5 mark. I'm guessing that's close to average for it at its coldest give or take. can this be made to go any lower?


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## yum beer (9/10/12)

fletcher said:


> thanks guys, yeah I made sure the dial on the inside was at its lowest and this morning it was around the 3.4-5 mark. I'm guessing that's close to average for it at its coldest give or take. can this be made to go any lower?



The fridge will only go as low as its internal thermostat allows, try your STC set on 1c and see how low it goes.
The problem you can get is that a fridge ideally only needs to run at 3-4c, so a lot wont get any lower. Does your fridge have an inbuilt freezer, if so you
can try taking the door off to drag colder air into the fridge.


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## fletcher (10/10/12)

ah yeah, taking the door off shouldn't be hard. I'll try that!! thanks man 

apart from that I've decided I'd like to do away with kits and head down tr grain trail using biab. any suggestions for this no doubt simple lager recipe above with grain ingredients and not the coopers kit? still need to purchase a large pot for stove work and a grain bag an thermometer but that shouldn't be hard.


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## paulmclaren11 (10/10/12)

I actually think the Coopers Cerveza tin is pretty good for the style (I normally do BIAB now). It's a great one for summer and seems to please everyone who I have given it too.

My last one was a mid-style with just 500g LDM and about 15g of Chinook @ 10 mins. Fermented at 10c with S23.

Gave it a nice flavour kick whilst still remaining an easy guzzler! :chug:


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## fletcher (10/10/12)

cheers Paul. yeah I'm thinking more and more, it's sitting there now, shame to waste it I suppose. might attempt it and see how she turns out, I just really don't want that twang. fingers crossed it should be okay


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## paulmclaren11 (10/10/12)

I have done the Coopers Cerveza a few times now and I have never experienced kit twang. 

I think as long as the kit is fresh and you use a good lager yeast (not the one under the lid which is a mix of ale and lager I think...) at appropriate temps it comes out a pretty good Corona/Sol style beer.

Give it a crack I am sure it will be fine.


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## yum beer (10/10/12)

Hey fletcher, if you wanna go AG on a cerveza it can be very difficult to reproduce because there are a lot of adjuncts in them, ie flaked maize, dex, corn sugar.
I have my first AG attempt at a cerveza style cold conditioning ATM, probably bottling this weekend, grain bill...pilsener 65%, maize(polenta) 20%, munich 10% and carapils 5%.
Ive hopped with supar alpha to 19 IBU with a flameout addition of galaxy just for a fruity twist....it tastes pretty good from samples and colour wise its bang on the mark.
Fermented at 10c with White LAbe Mexican Yeast(seasonal) got it out of date and built it up. w34/70 or s189 lager yeast at 9-10c or us05 at 15c.


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## fletcher (10/10/12)

nice yum!

i'll keep that in mind. i might as well use the crap i've got for teh moment and hope for the best now i've got the temperatures sorted and a proper ferment fridge and all. then i'm gonna go mental with biab. thanks for the heads up...let me know how she turns out? i'd be keen to try it.


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## Helles (10/10/12)

The last lot of Czech Saaz i used was way over the with pepper flavour
And i put them in at 40 and 30 min boil
Not sure what year there from but pretty sure they are fairly fresh
i used for 80lt AG
As well as Perle for bittering
30g @ 40 min Saaz
16g @ 30 min Saaz
In a pretty light Lager a Munich Helles
It is to much flavour for me in a light lager
Be a little carefull with Saaz 
You might have the same crop as me


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## fletcher (11/10/12)

cheers helles,

i'm still pretty new to the whole brewing (and especially BIAB) game, so i'll keep mine nice and simple to start. i'll probably only use that small saaz pack for flavouring at this stage. thank you for the help! i'll make sure i don't boil it any longer!


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## fletcher (11/10/12)

> Does your fridge have an inbuilt freezer, if so you
> can try taking the door off to drag colder air into the fridge. [\quote]
> 
> yum! this worked perfectly and it now gets down to 1 easily! (actually, it overshot 1 degrees and went lower).
> ...


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## yum beer (11/10/12)

Initially you may find the fridge wants to drop a little below your set temp while the fermenter gets down to temp.
0.4 want do any damage, in fact will be great for conditioning. Your brew wont freeze at those temps, just make sure the fermenter is not touching or too close to any cooling coils.

Once your fermenter is down to temp the swings in the fridge will be smaller.

Good luck with it, Fletch


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## fletcher (11/10/12)

thanks so much mate, you've been a wealth of knowledge and reassurance for me. very much appreciated


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## fletcher (11/10/12)

last question! (hopefully haha)

yum you wrote up, on the last page, about the lagering process including D-rest and then the lagering which is great. i just wanted to know at any of those stages, might it be an idea to take the beer off the yeast cake? or just leave it on there?

i have a larger fv i could pour the beer into, then clean my lager FV quickly, and put it back into it and back into the fridge...or is it just more work for little gain? i've heard of a bunch of people taking it off the yeast cake to improve flavour, is the reason i asked.


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## bignath (11/10/12)

fletcher said:


> last question! (hopefully haha)
> 
> yum you wrote up, on the last page, about the lagering process including D-rest and then the lagering which is great. i just wanted to know at any of those stages, might it be an idea to take the beer off the yeast cake? or just leave it on there?
> 
> i have a larger fv i could pour the beer into, then clean my lager FV quickly, and put it back into it and back into the fridge...or is it just more work for little gain? i've heard of a bunch of people taking it off the yeast cake to improve flavour, is the reason i asked.



Fletcher, i know your question was aimed at yum beer, but i think it's safe to say everyone with an opinion would agree that your proposal of transferring to another vessel, cleaning the original and then transferring back to the clean vessel is risky business, particularly for so little alleged gain.

You run the risk of picking up infections at so many process points, as well as oxidising your beer along the way. 

I used to rack to secondary and then cold condition etc....Nowadays, i literally just cold condition the primary and then package. I have not noticed a difference in the final product. 

Not saying there are no advantages to transferring off the yeast cake, but transferring twice is asking for trouble, and the gain needs to outweigh the risk for it to be considered a good idea.


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## fletcher (11/10/12)

Big Nath said:


> Fletcher, i know your question was aimed at yum beer, but i think it's safe to say everyone with an opinion would agree that your proposal of transferring to another vessel, cleaning the original and then transferring back to the clean vessel is risky business, particularly for so little alleged gain.
> 
> You run the risk of picking up infections at so many process points, as well as oxidising your beer along the way.
> 
> ...



thanks Big Nath, yeah it was asked of yum but i'm more than happy that you've answered. thank you.

the only reason i can't use that secondary FVs is cos it's one of those big coopers ones that doesn't fit in my fridge :angry: 

to be honest, i'm kinda glad there's no real advantage at all in placing in a secondary FV cos it's less to worry about. i'll cold condition in primary and bottle straight from there. sexy.

thanks again for clearing that up!!


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## yum beer (11/10/12)

Well answered Big Nath, sorry Fletch on a late night at work,
follow above, too much risk to bother transferring unless you plan on lagering for several weeks or longer.
a week or so wont make any difference flavour wise.


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## yum beer (11/10/12)

Single biggest improvement I have notice in my process is to place your carbed beer in the fridge for at least a week before you drink them.
Longer if you can, they age so much better and drink much smoother than just jamming some bottles in the fridge for a few hours before cracking.


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## fletcher (12/10/12)

so, what is the best process after they've been bottled...temperature-wise?

do you keep them at 12c forever? or what is the best process to age them temperature-wise? 12c for 3 weeks or lower at 1-3c for 3 weeks, then just keep em in fridge til cracked?

and please don't apologise for not answering right away mate, you don't even have to answer at all...i appreciate everything you've done...it's been a big help!


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## yum beer (12/10/12)

after you bottle let them carb up at room temp, closer to 20c works niceley,normally about 2 weeks, if its cooler they will take longer.
Once they are carbed, testing is a neccessary part of brewing, keep them as cool as you can. Fridge space is not always available for a lot
of bottles but keep some in the fridge for as long as you can. I normally have 4 or 5 different beers in the fridge on a constant rotation-FIFO-, of course it will depend how
much you drink, I dont drink a lot (SWMBO doesn't agree).

EDIT: spelling and lack of forethought


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## fletcher (29/10/12)

yum beer said:


> Hey fletcher, if you wanna go AG on a cerveza it can be very difficult to reproduce because there are a lot of adjuncts in them, ie flaked maize, dex, corn sugar.
> I have my first AG attempt at a cerveza style cold conditioning ATM, probably bottling this weekend, grain bill...pilsener 65%, maize(polenta) 20%, munich 10% and carapils 5%.
> Ive hopped with supar alpha to 19 IBU with a flameout addition of galaxy just for a fruity twist....it tastes pretty good from samples and colour wise its bang on the mark.
> Fermented at 10c with White LAbe Mexican Yeast(seasonal) got it out of date and built it up. w34/70 or s189 lager yeast at 9-10c or us05 at 15c.



hey yum, how's this one at the moment? any recent tests? and where did you source the mexican yeast hombre? i'm using s23 in mine and am finally getting to do it this week.


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## yum beer (29/10/12)

fletcher said:


> hey yum, how's this one at the moment? any recent tests? and where did you source the mexican yeast hombre? i'm using s23 in mine and am finally getting to do it this week.



I cracked a bottle of this Friday night with my cousin I hadnt seen for a while, it was only 11 days from bottling and been in the fridge a bit over a day.
It was pretty well carbed, it poured a nice head and very clear and bright, it was quite nice though a little 'green' still, there was a slight grainy taste and the hops
were a liitle slick on the finish. I think another 2 weeks and it will be good. My cousin thought it was sensational and threw another bottle in the freezer, it was not quite carbed
or settled as the first.
Definetely a winner, will report again in 2 weeks when I have another go at it.



The yeast is White Labs,WLP 940, its a seasonal I think comes out in March--check there website for sure-I bought it from ESB(sponsor) about 8 months out of date and grew it on a stir plate.

S-23 should work fine. Good luck with it.


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## fletcher (30/10/12)

yum beer said:


> Hey Fletcher,
> for best utilization of you hops,
> mix 2 litres of water with 200 grams of LDM, bring to the boil, add your hops for 10 mins.
> Strain this liquid into your fermenter and use in place of your initial hot water..do not add the hops to your fermenter ( in my opinion. IMO , you will get too much flavour
> ...


Hey Yum,
Me here with another question haha.
The cerveza is in the FV now and all seems good hopefully, apart from waiting a bit long to get the temp down to pitch the s23, but had a quick question. 
If I crash chill to 1c for a week or three THEN bottle, how will I carb it, by bringing it up to room temp again? Seems like a lot of temperature changes is all, would that affect it? I'm happy to bottle it, let it sit at room temp to carb for maybe 2 weeks, then cold store at 1c again for x weeks/months, but just a bit concerned about temps.
It's been up and down in temps like a seesaw


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## yum beer (17/11/12)

Missed this last response Fletch but here goes.

Let your bottled brew sit at room temps, as said around 20c if you can, normally good carb after 2 weeks,
then get them cool if you can. Whatever you do get em in the fridge for a while before drinking it does make a huge differnece.
My brews sit in my garage/bar/pool room which is cool in winter and can get a little warm in summer, up to about 30c on a hot day..not ideal but still working
on SWMBO allowing boxes of beer into the house...getting there.


Update on my Cerveza batch, had a bottle this arvo and quite pleased with it, nice malt sweetness and enough bitter bite to be fresh, the galaxy hasnt really worked for the style,
its got an almost Aussie pale ale finish with a brilliant dry crisp lager body. Probably along the lines of Knappstein Reserve, not exactly my favourite beer but thats were it finished.

I think with more appropriate hops..Galena and maybe some Glacier instead it would be great, even as is just dropping the galaxy and only using super alpha for bittering
might have been a better option. I will certainly enjoy these over the hot days ahead.


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## fletcher (18/11/12)

sweet mate thanks. yeah i've just begun the 1C temp after reaching final gravity after d-rest. it got down just under what i expected, and stayed there for 2 days so i then started lowering temp by 2C every day. yesterday i got it to 1C and it's sitting pretty and will do for about 4ish weeks before i attempt to carbonate and bottle.

i'll keep that in mind for future batches of the cerveza lager but am starting on AG BIAB from here on in unless for some reason this one turns out drinkable to the point of wanting to give to my mates (fingers crossed) haha. so psyched for my first AG


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## fletcher (24/11/12)

so I'm away at the moment overseas, and got news that the person living in out house short circuited the laundry (pretty furious) - and now there is no power in there so my lagering is ruined. my beer is now sitting at room temp and will be for another 2 weeks. 

It had a week and a half of 1C and is now sitting at Sydney room temps. Any ideas on what I could do, save from just seeing how it turns out? Or is it good as yuck?


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## yum beer (24/11/12)

Get the f%*#ers to fix the electricity and get your fridge going.

Depending on how hot it gets it 'may' be alright. I would expect the yeast to start producing some nasty stuff in 2 weeks especially if it gets warm.

Try it when you get home and see, it might surprise you.


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## m3taL (24/11/12)

Can u get them to run an Ext lead from somewhere else in the house??? or next door and get the fridge fired up again


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## fletcher (24/11/12)

jameyliddelow said:


> Can u get them to run an Ext lead from somewhere else in the house??? or next door and get the fridge fired up again



at this stage probably not as it's all rigged to an STC, and I'm scared to have them f%#ing around with it. I don't know if it resets to 10C once switched back on.


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## fletcher (24/11/12)

yum beer said:


> Get the f%*#ers to fix the electricity and get your fridge going.
> 
> Depending on how hot it gets it 'may' be alright. I would expect the yeast to start producing some nasty stuff in 2 weeks especially if it gets warm.
> 
> Try it when you get home and see, it might surprise you.



sadly this might be the only thing I can do. fingers crossed


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## yum beer (24/11/12)

fletcher said:


> sadly this might be the only thing I can do. fingers crossed




If they can get the fridge going without the stc, normal fridge temps are far better than nothing.


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## fletcher (8/12/12)

we got home today and she'd blown a fuse....or at least short circuited it, i don't know the correct term. the fridge and washing machine and drier (and probably a whole crap load of other stuff had been put on at the same time; seriously must have been a LOT). good thing is they only required a reset of their powerboards and were back up and running.

no damage done...except for inside my fridge which looked like chemical warfare via mould. the beer was spoiled and stunk too. all that work for nothing. ugh. time to try again.


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