# Polenta



## Maxt (7/2/08)

Can anyone guide me in the steps required to use polenta (as a flaked maize alternative) in a CAP.
Cheers


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## Screwtop (7/2/08)

Maxt said:


> Can anyone guide me in the steps required to use polenta (as a flaked maize alternative) in a CAP.
> Cheers




My experience, have used it as is and pre-cooked it (cereal mash), noticed no difference in efficiency. 

Screwy


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## kevnlis (7/2/08)

If you don't cereal mash it you should dough it in (with some rice hulls depending on how much you use and what you drain your mash through) for a bit before you add the malt, it takes a while to take up moisture.


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## Maxt (7/2/08)

So...I hold it at 67degrees for about 20 mins @ a L:G ratio of 1:3, then boil it for 40 mins.
Yes?


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## kevnlis (7/2/08)

Maxt said:


> So...I hold it at 67degrees for about 20 mins @ a L:G ratio of 1:3, then boil it for 40 mins.
> Yes?



I use 2.3L/kilo. 20 minutes is not going to be long enough to fully convert the polenta, even Galaxy would be hard pressed to do that! If you want it done ASAP do Iodine tests starting at 30 min.


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## Darren (7/2/08)

I found polenta left a nasty taste in my CAP. Probably better off getting some corn and popping it in the microwave. You could try milling it on a wide gap then decrease until you get the right size. Need a cerial mash first though if you go down that path


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## Kai (7/2/08)

Users of popcorn on here seem to just chuck it in the mash whole, iirc. I wouldn't see any need for a cereal mash on it either, after all you've gelatinised it in the microwave.


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## kevnlis (7/2/08)

I do not cereal mash air popper corn I just chuck it in, I do cereal mash polenta because it is slow to take up moisture.


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## Screwtop (7/2/08)

Have never used more than 15% of polenta, have a FB in my mash tun and have never had sparging issues other than a few grains of polenta flow through while recircing. Something to remember is to up your total brewing water a bit, as the polenta seems to retain more. As for Iodine testing, works fine BUT. Cooler mash temps (Beta Amylase) require a longer rest, although an Iodine test will show complete conversion as the test is not Enzyme specific. I up the water by 1L/Kg of polenta in the mash, so for 500g of polenta, an extra half a litre of total brewing water. For the first time try a 75 min mash at 67C, reduce the rest time to 60 min for the next batch using polenta and see what effect this has on your mash efficiency.

Screwy


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## warrenlw63 (7/2/08)

This may be of some help.  

Warren -


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## Darren (7/2/08)

Kai said:


> Users of popcorn on here seem to just chuck it in the mash whole, iirc. I wouldn't see any need for a cereal mash on it either, after all you've gelatinised it in the microwave.




Kai,

I agree. The reference to cereal mash was for the milled corn.

cheers

Darren


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## sah (7/2/08)

I haven't used popcorn. How do you solve the high volume to mass ratio problem. I have a mental image of my 50L esky overflowing with popped corn.

Scott


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## kevnlis (7/2/08)

SAH said:


> I haven't used popcorn. How do you solve the high volume to mass ratio problem. I have a mental image of my 50L esky overflowing with popped corn.
> 
> Scott



Next time you make popped corn put a piece in water and observe how fast it dissapears into nothing!


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## Kai (7/2/08)

Darren said:


> Kai,
> 
> I agree. The reference to cereal mash was for the milled corn.
> 
> ...



Ah, the "it" confused me following after the pop recommendation.


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## Thirsty Boy (8/2/08)

I've only used polenta the once, and in a pretty big strong ale, so I can't say anything about its flavour contribution to a CAP.. but I do know that you can buy Polenta, and you can buy "instant" polenta which is just normal polenta that someone pre-cooked for you then dried out again, quite finely milled. Pre-gelatinised, handy.

Just chuck it in the mash. Hit all my numbers and registered a nice negative iodine test, so I am assuming that it all converted as expected.

You could try corn "grits" which is what I _think_ is the "authentic" corn adjunct for a CAP. I have no real idea what the hell they are (I have it written down somewhere but I don't remember) BUT... I do know that there is a fair chance you might find them in your local Asian grocery. They'll need a cereal mash though.


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## geoffi (8/2/08)

SAH said:


> I haven't used popcorn. How do you solve the high volume to mass ratio problem. I have a mental image of my 50L esky overflowing with popped corn.
> 
> Scott




Scott,

I've used 20% air-popped popcorn in my three (so far) CAPs. It works brilliantly. Cheap. Easy to find. Easy to use.

Cast from your mind that mental image. It ain't gonna happen. 

You will end up with a confrontingly large amount, but fear not. It pretty much melts into the mash within a few seconds.

(I tried grinding it once. Never again. Like ball bearings.)


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## PJO (8/2/08)

Maxt said:


> Can anyone guide me in the steps required to use polenta (as a flaked maize alternative) in a CAP.
> Cheers



G'day Maxt,

I have made a few CAPS and only ever used polenta (at 20% of the grist). 
If using polenta you have to boil it otherwise you won't get it all to convert. Corn grits are essentially a slightly coarser version of polenta.

The Cereal mash I do (below) is a modification of the Traditional American Double Mash as described by Jeff Renner.

1. Mash polenta and some malt (around 1/3 of the weight of the polenta) at around 67-68C for 20min in a seperate stockpot (3+L/kg).
2. Raise cereal mash to boiling, and Boil for 35-40min.
3. About 10-20min into the boiling begin your normal mash (with the rest of your malt) in your mash tun and hold at 50C for a protein rest (20-30min).
4. Combine the two mashes and heat to around 66C, and hold until conversion. 

I never quite get to 66C so I apply a bit of heat to my mash tun, but i have always mashed the main mash at around 3L/kg. You could probably get to 66C if you did a fairly thicker normal mash (say 2.5L/kg) and fairly thin cereal mash (3.5L/kg). I've never bothered to play around with that part of it.

When you're heating the cereal mash to boiling make sure you stir constantly so it doesn't catch on the bottom and scorch. Once its boiling it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as prone to scorching but still stir regularly.

Best yeast IMO for this beer is Ayinger (aka WLP833 Bock yeast).

Cheers,
Petr

PS: Wear gloves, boiling cereal mash spits (severe burns  ).


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## RobW (8/2/08)

Second what Petr says, plus it's good to have a jug of boiling water close by for top ups because polenta soaks water up like a sponge.

And you get pretty sore shoulders after all that stirring too.


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## warrenlw63 (8/2/08)

Hey guys not too well versed with pressure cookers but would they make a cereal mash any easier? :unsure: 

Warren -


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## kevnlis (8/2/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey guys not too well versed with pressure cookers but would they make a cereal mash any easier? :unsure:
> 
> Warren -



That is actually a good idea in that it would force the steam/moisture into the grist, but how would you keep it from scorching at the bottom?


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## PJO (8/2/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey guys not too well versed with pressure cookers but would they make a cereal mash any easier? :unsure:
> 
> Warren -



Yeah could be a way of speeding up the process, I reckon you could cut the boiling time by 2/3's.

As for scorching, I think part of my problem is that the stockpot I have is very thin stainless and is prone to hot spots when using a burner. Most pressure cookers are much thicker and would distribute the heat more evenly.

Only problem I can see is that you would need a pretty large P-cooker (>6L) to fit it all in.
For a standard batch with around 5kg total grist, you would have around 5+L of cereal mash, 1.3kg (~1L) grist (polenta+malt) and ~4L of water.

Most P-cookers I've seen are around 5L which would not quite be enough (unless you lowered the %age of polenta in your grist or did a smaller batch).

I use a 14L stockpot for 50L (flame out vol.) batch of CAP. This size is reasonably comfortable but it still spits and makes quite a mess when boiling.

Cheers,
Petr


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## kevnlis (8/2/08)

Best tip I can give for the grist boil, don't wear thong and shorts. I still have the scars from last months triple decoction


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## PJO (8/2/08)

kevnlis said:


> Best tip I can give for the grist boil, don't wear thong and shorts. I still have the scars from last months triple decoction



Ouch  
Sounds like a QLDer sort of thing to do (wear shorts and thongs) while brewing


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## SJW (8/2/08)

Why bother with Polenta, just use Flaked Maize and dump in the mash. I am using 27% Flaked Maize in a CAP soon. Will do a Protein rest then 20mins at 62 and 40 mins at 72.

Steve


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## PJO (8/2/08)

SJW said:


> Why bother with Polenta, just use Flaked Maize and dump in the mash.


I guess some of us like to do things the hard way  
Also, it used to be hard to get Flaked Maize a few years back, before the Bairds stuff started coming in.


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## Maxt (9/2/08)

Thanks for all the input guys.
Geoffi, is the popped corn substitution 1:1. I.e my recipe calls for 1.7kg of flaked maize, does that mean 1.7kg of popped corn?


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## Benniee (10/12/08)

Geoffi said:


> I've used 20% air-popped popcorn in my three (so far) CAPs. It works brilliantly. Cheap. Easy to find. Easy to use.
> 
> Cast from your mind that mental image. It ain't gonna happen.
> 
> ...



I thought I would drag up this thread to discuss a problem with a CAP I brewed yesterday. The recipe had around 25% popcorn, which I popped in the microwave (that took a bloody long time I don't mind telling you). The rest of the grain bill was pilsner malt.

I added the popcorn into the strike water to set up for a protein rest, but it certainly didn't dissolve as fast or as much as I had expected. Everything fitted in my mash tun fine, so it obviously did dissolve to some extent - but right throughout the mash I could still see fairly large chunks of popcorn. I didn't attempt to break up the popcorn first.

Mashed for 25 mins at 52 degrees, then 90 mins at 64, then 10 mins at 72 (best attempt at a mashout without flooding my esky). My efficiency was way down 65% where as I usually hit mid to high 70s. I'm a bit bummed by that, but being my first attempt at the style I'm trying to work out what I did wrong. Run off was nice and clear so I'm guessing all of the available starch got converted, and the problem was that some of the starch from the popcorn just never made it into solution.

Soooo - users of popcorn... What did I do wrong, or should I say what can I do next time to try and up the efficiency a bit.

Benniee


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## geoffi (10/12/08)

I tried once using the microwave, but I think you get a lot more 'blanks' that way, ie kernels that don't pop. I always use an air popper (much quicker and easier) and get around 75% efficiency. The popcorn dissolves into the mash quickly and thoroughly as well. If you keep using the microwave, maybe you should just add some more to compensate. Alternatively, how about giving the popcorn a post-popping simmer to break it down more before adding to the mash?


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## geoffi (10/12/08)

Maxt said:


> Thanks for all the input guys.
> Geoffi, is the popped corn substitution 1:1. I.e my recipe calls for 1.7kg of flaked maize, does that mean 1.7kg of popped corn?




Mmm. Late reply, but here goes. Yes, I go 1:1 and it works out well for me. By now you are probably aware that 1.7kg of popped corn is equivalent in volume to one shitload.


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## Benniee (10/12/08)

Geoffi said:


> I tried once using the microwave, but I think you get a lot more 'blanks' that way, ie kernels that don't pop. I always use an air popper (much quicker and easier) and get around 75% efficiency. The popcorn dissolves into the mash quickly and thoroughly as well. If you keep using the microwave, maybe you should just add some more to compensate. Alternatively, how about giving the popcorn a post-popping simmer to break it down more before adding to the mash?



There were certainly quite a few un-popped kernels, and I tried to guestimate the amount as best I could when doing my eff calcs - in hindsight I should have kept them and weighed them to be more precise.

Sounds like an air-popper is the go for next time - I'm guessing that most of the appliance stores would have a little cheapy that should do the job.

I might get a chance to brew another CAP between here and Christmas and if I do I will try to do a bit of a popcorn simmer/boil prior to adding it to the mash. Hopefully that will help.

As for the volume of popped corn - it's BIG! I ended up using my 50L kettle to hold it all (just).
Benniee


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## muckanic (11/12/08)

So has anyone tried using an air popper as a kiln for home-malted corn? It probably wouldn't matter too much if the temperature got so high that it clobbered the enzymes. Any problems with wet ingredients?


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## brando (29/3/11)

Do I need to cereal mash this stuff from Woolies?


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## Bribie G (29/3/11)

Yes, especially that one, as it requires 20 mins cooking according to the directions. However there is another one that you can get from Woolies from the Eye-tie section:




It's about 50c more but advertises "ready in 3 minutes" so is probably precooked then dehydrated. Last time I just put it in a 65 mash as is and it seemed to convert just fine, but gave it a 90 min mash to be on the safe side. It's in a vacuum shrunk block but is dry, not rubbery.


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## brando (29/3/11)

BribieG said:


> Yes, especially that one, as it requires 20 mins cooking according to the directions. However there is another one that you can get from Woolies from the Eye-tie section:
> 
> View attachment 44978
> 
> ...




Hmm.. haven't seen that one. I've checked in two different Woolies stores now, but no luck finding that one.


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## Bribie G (29/3/11)

I get it in a section near the spec cheeses, the gourmet dried fetuccine etc - it's nowhere near the regular polenta that's in the rolled oats / semolina / psyllium husk area. Maybe give Capalaba a tinkle.


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## mika (29/3/11)

BribieG said:


> Yes, especially that one, as it requires 20 mins cooking according to the directions. .....




Have you ever tried mashing the type that requires cooking ?
Last time I used this ultra finely ground Polenta that was of the 1min variety and it clogged up my mash tun. On the advice of a more knowledgable brewer, I was told to just get the 'regular' stuff next time. To be honest, I'm not sure if the 'regular' stuff from this supplier has also undergone some form of pre-gelatinisation, but this brewer had used it without incident.


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## Bribie G (29/3/11)

Yes I do use the generic supermarket ones - like that piccie that Brando posted, or black and gold from IGA, and I boil for 20mins to a thin porridge, cool to 74 and stir in a kilo of base malt etc. With the 3 min one I just boiled for 3 mins and it came up just like the normal heavy-duty polenta does after 20 mins and decided just to try it as-is in the mash. Being BIAB, no stuck sparge problems. In fact I always find with all types of polenta that it seems to disappear during the mash, fairly low fibre stuff.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/3/11)

BribieG said:


> Yes I do use the generic supermarket ones - like that piccie that Brando posted, or black and gold from IGA, and I boil for 20mins to a thin porridge, cool to 74 and stir in a kilo of base malt etc. With the 3 min one I just boiled for 3 mins and it came up just like the normal heavy-duty polenta does after 20 mins and decided just to try it as-is in the mash. Being BIAB, no stuck sparge problems. In fact I always find with all types of polenta that it seems to disappear during the mash, fairly low fibre stuff.



I find the same thing BIAB with rice that has been precooked. It tends to disintegrate into the grain base.

Goomba


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## Maheel (29/3/11)

BribieG said:


> Yes, especially that one, as it requires 20 mins cooking according to the directions. However there is another one that you can get from Woolies from the Eye-tie section:
> 
> View attachment 44978
> 
> ...



saw 4 bags at woolies Hawthorne today 5pm, just near the deli fridges


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## brocky_555 (3/4/11)

What does CAP stand for?

This discussion really interests me becauase i want to know what polenta does for a beer


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## Bribie G (3/4/11)

Classic American Pilsner - the sort they had before Prohibition, before brewing got concentrated in the hands of a few companies and the quality went downhill. They used a large quantitiy of maize and rice due to the nature of the American six row malts in use at the time. They were more highly hopped than current examples such as Bud. 

Maize gives a smooth "corniness" to the beer - it's a signature note in many non-German i.e. non-Reinheitsgebot Euro Lagers including dear old Stella. I had a brew day yesterday with about 10 attending and had a fresh keg of my Yorkie Gold with 500g Polenta, everyone voted it smooth, easy drinking and - well - corny :lol: 

As another example it's also my way of running up a 6 % ABV beer that drinks light and refreshing without having to use a spoon to eat it.


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## brocky_555 (3/4/11)

thanks that answers the question perfectly


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## brando (3/4/11)

brocky_555 said:


> What does CAP stand for?
> 
> This discussion really interests me becauase i want to know what polenta does for a beer



CAP = Classic American Pilsner

Got the vac-packed Molino polenta from Woolies on the weekend, and brewed a kind of APA with Nelson Sauvin and Amarillo.

Bit worried that the 3.6kg of Golden Promise used might not have enough diastic power to convert the 1kg of polenta sufficiently.

BribieG, please pipe-in and advise!


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