# Diabetes



## hellbent (9/2/13)

The good Doc in town has informed me that after my blood test results came through that my sugar content is way to high and that Diabetes is a huge possibility.

I have been brewing 10ltr mini AG brews of about 6 - 7% ABV. and now wish to concentrate on beers of about 3.5 to 4% yet still be a beer that still tastes ok.

My reasoning being that by lowering the ABV that will then cut the sugar content down.( I may well be mistaken on that too)
I need suggestions or help in this matter and would appreciate any help given.

1. Do I continue on making my usual brew....( 1.5 Trad Ale..... 500g munich 1 and 500g munich 2..... plus some caramunich and wheat malt with about 30g amarillo hops) then could I either top up a fair bit with water before or during the boil, or maybe top up with water in the FV before casting the yeast to lighten the brew?

2. Or does anyone now a good AG recipe of about 3.5 to 4% ABV that still has a good taste.

Maybe there is someone out there with Diabetes or has a high sugar reading that can give out some clues on the subject?

I love my beer and don't wish to give it up so I am hoping that somebody may have some good ideas or recipes...

Cheers guys
Al


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## Nick JD (9/2/13)

Bummer about the sugary blood mate. Ask your Doc if you should possibly leave the beer out altogether, I reckon.

That said - you can effortlessly get 20L of mid-strength beer out of a 19L pot - and it's not only your pancreas that'll get a break, your liver will too. Also, look into (gasp) using enzymes and brewing super-dry beers, as they have virtually zero residual sugaz left in them (I have no idea how the pancreas is involved with metabolising beer sugaz and how beer affects blood sugar). Worth researching.

Again, ask whether you should give the drinking away.

This is a corker: I have it in the fridge atm. It's like a megaswill mid, but it's all pilsnery and stonefruity.

*Amarillo Mid*

Original Gravity (OG): 1.036 (°P): 9.0
Final Gravity (FG): 1.009 (°P): 2.3
Alcohol (ABV): 3.54 %
Colour (SRM): 3.8 (EBC): 7.4
Bitterness (IBU): 25.9 (Average)

98.51% Pilsner
1.49% Caramunich III

1 g/L Amarillo (8.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 65°C for 90 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 19°C with Safale US-05


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*

EDIT: just remembered that while sipping it last night I noted in my recipe book to take the IBUs down to 20.


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## manticle (9/2/13)

I have a dark mild recipe that sits around 3.5 that I have brewed many times. It's in the db but who knows when that will be back up.
Going on 70% mash efficiency for 18 litres:
3kg maris
150g biscuit
250 heritage crystal
150 biscuit
30g roast barley
100 choc

18g [email protected]
10g [email protected]

Mash at 69 for 30, 72 for 10, 78 mash out.
1187, 1469 or 1099 yeast


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## Bizier (9/2/13)

I vote mild but the problem is that I load mine with so much crystal it might be the opposite of what you are trying to achieve. Perhaps a low og saison?


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## jyo (9/2/13)

Yeah, I was thinking the saison too. Mash it low at 63' and you shouldn't need any dry enzyme to get the low gravity you are after.

That sucks to hear about the diabetes, mate.Type II diabetes is rife in my family so something I need to be wary of too.



Bizier said:


> I vote mild but the problem is that I load mine with so much crystal it might be the opposite of what you are trying to achieve. Perhaps a low og saison?


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## Florian (9/2/13)

Two possible problems you could run into:

1. You brew a low alc beer with a high finishing gravity, therefore have even more sugar remaining in your beer than you eould in a 'normal' beer.

2. Being a low alc beer, you might get in the habit of drinking more to 'compensate', therefore getting the same amount of sugar or even more if it doubles with point 1.


I'm with Nick, have a good talk to your doc and do some good research yourself. There are heaps of diabetes forums etc on the net, I'm sure you're not the first one worrying about beer consumption.


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## manticle (9/2/13)

All fair points. Don't sub brewers' advice for medical advice. My low alc recipe above is high in dextrins so it's low alc but full bodied and flavoured. May be the opposite of what you need. Have a saison recipe that is low alc and low fg. Usually around 4% but have accidentally diluted to around 3% and still had a tasty result.

Pils malt, wheat malt, styrians and spalter, 3711 run warm.
Step mash 55/62/68/72/78, 5/15/45/10/10, mid 30 ibu.


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## ianh (9/2/13)

hellbent said:


> The good Doc in town has informed me that after my blood test results came through that my sugar content is way to high and that Diabetes is a huge possibility.
> 
> 
> Cheers guys
> Al


Hi Al

I have type 2 diabetes which is controlled by diet plus I enjoy a beer. So it's like lots of things in life it's about finding a balance.

In my case I don't partake in things like soft drink, chocolate, ice cream etc. so I can enjoy a beer or three.

Consume about 2 litres per day of 4-5% ABV beer whilst still controlling my blood sugars within the limits.

cheers

Ian


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## pk.sax (9/2/13)

I think a decoction might be a feasible way for you to get a really fermentable beer without having to mash low.

Esp considering you only do 10l batches, that is as simple as using the kitchen saucepan to decoct. Can attest to the saisons going dry as all fvck and tasting amazing. Surprise (or not really), saison yeast is as good at making a hoppy beer as it is for a lowly hopped saison.

Hopefully some of the pro brewers will chip in with more technical advice regarding ways to control residual sugars.

Second and third the advice about talking to the doctor about the beer. He might not be too beer literate but hopefully open minded enough and smart enough to give you info to work on.


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## Nick JD (9/2/13)

Hopefully you can talk to a beer drinking doctor. Unfortunately there are medical professionals out there that would rather you lived until 110 than actually enjoyed your life.


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## hellbent (10/2/13)

Thanks guys for your responses to my queries, when I finish my current grain stock on hand I will try them.

As I said before my Doctor has said the sugar content in my blood was a bit high and as I am a pretty obese sorta guy he highly suspects Diabetes.and has asked me to take a "Glucose Tolerance Test" which he expects will confirm his diagnosis.
When the results are available, and if they are positive to Diabetes, I will then have a big chat to the Doc regarding my beer intake and the best way to tackle it.
I appreciate your concerns whether I should give up the beer but I love my beer, and have since I was 14 yrs old, and I can tell you now there is no chance of me giving it up completely, I have been dealing with the same Doctor for near 35yrs and I think he knows me well enough to understand that.
I'm at the age of 70 and as both parents died in their 60's my time left in this world is more on the minus side than the plus side so even if it means mid-strength I wont give up my beer completely.
once again many thanks guys for the input.
BTW I'm still curious though if I could "water"down my recipe by adding 2 - 3 ltrs of extra water, would it then become a mid strength?? 
Cheers
Al


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## JDW81 (10/2/13)

hellbent said:


> BTW I'm still curious though if I could "water"down my recipe by adding 2 - 3 ltrs of extra water, would it then become a mid strength??


You could but the beer would end up a bit thin. I don't know if you are familiar with the brewing network (online US radio dedicated to all things brewing), but they did a good program on session beers, that can be downloaded from iTunes or found here


Lots of talk about how to get full bodied brews at only about 3.5% if memory serves me correct.

Good luck with it all.

JD


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## Nedasaurus1 (10/2/13)

im A K&B brewer have before recently getting into the K&B i made a half sugar swill for 8 years nad im a diabetic and have been for many years....when i gave up brewing for a spell i was drtinking xxxx gold or carlton mid....i have always been hard on myself as for most my diabetic life i didnt know i was diabetic...i smash a 30 pack every two days....i regularly get blood checked and my blood stays acceptable.. so i figure the half sugar must do the trick plus the hombrew side of things.....im no doctor for sure but if i had to stop drinking id change doctors. my doc drinks which helps but i guess everything in moderation is the key ...thats what ive been told not what i do.anyway ive no recommendations just letting you knowe theres another diabetic here, cheers Ned i make APA K&B beer with half the reipes amount of malt or dex or whatever im using...works for me???


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## hunter551 (10/2/13)

Hi, I'm a type 1 diabetic and I can say you most need to worry about the remaining sugar content in the beer (carbohydrates). I've just brewed a 6.6% Saison that's only got about 5 carbs per pint. You want to mash low (64) and use use a yeast with high attenuation (WY3711) so that you get your fg as low as possible.

That being said, alcohol isn't great for the body and the long term effects of over consumption also overlap with the effects of diabetes.

The gist of it is, start liking dry low carb beers. If you want more flavour it's better to go for yeast and hop driven flavours rather than malt driven as these will have lots of remaining sugars.

Also ASK YOUR DOC!


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## hellbent (10/2/13)

Nick JD said:


> Bummer about the sugary blood mate. Ask your Doc if you should possibly leave the beer out altogether, I reckon.
> 
> That said - you can effortlessly get 20L of mid-strength beer out of a 19L pot - and it's not only your pancreas that'll get a break, your liver will too. Also, look into (gasp) using enzymes and brewing super-dry beers, as they have virtually zero residual sugaz left in them (I have no idea how the pancreas is involved with metabolising beer sugaz and how beer affects blood sugar). Worth researching.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this Nick.....Just one question...What would be the better option to bring the IBUs down to 20...would I lessen the hops to say 40mins instead of 60min?? or would I trim the hop bill from 20g to 15g??? Nick the hop bill seems rather small @ 1g/L and I am only presuming that means 1 gram of hops per 1 litre of brew ? but I'm more than likely bum up.
I have entered this into brewmate as a 20ltr brew with a 3500g grain bill with 20g amarillo to get OG 1.038 and a FG 1.010 very close to the figures you've supplied . How am I doing?

Cheers & thanks
Al


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## hunter551 (10/2/13)

hellbent said:


> Thanks for this Nick.....Just one question...What would be the better option to bring the IBUs down to 20...would I lessen the hops to say 40mins instead of 60min?? or would I trim the hop bill from 20g to 15g??? Nick the hop bill seems rather small @ 1g/L and I am only presuming that means 1 gram of hops per 1 litre of brew ? but I'm more than likely bum up.
> I have entered this into brewmate as a 20ltr brew with a 3500g grain bill with 20g amarillo to get OG 1.038 and a FG 1.010 very close to the figures you've supplied . How am I doing?
> 
> Cheers & thanks
> Al


With that OG and FG you'll be having about 15 carbs per pint, about the same as a slice of bread. Next time you see your doc ask him about the difference between carbohrdrates and energy and what you should be focussing on.


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## Nick JD (10/2/13)

hellbent said:


> Thanks for this Nick.....Just one question...What would be the better option to bring the IBUs down to 20...would I lessen the hops to say 40mins instead of 60min?? or would I trim the hop bill from 20g to 15g??? Nick the hop bill seems rather small @ 1g/L and I am only presuming that means 1 gram of hops per 1 litre of brew ? but I'm more than likely bum up.
> I have entered this into brewmate as a 20ltr brew with a 3500g grain bill with 20g amarillo to get OG 1.038 and a FG 1.010 very close to the figures you've supplied . How am I doing?
> 
> Cheers & thanks
> Al


I'm lessening the hops and keeping the 60 minute boil, as it's not a hop-driven beer. It's not meant to be an APA. Just a hint of Amarillo.

Unfortunately you'll probably drink more of it though, because it's quite tangy and refreshing.


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## hellbent (11/2/13)

Nick JD said:


> I'm lessening the hops and keeping the 60 minute boil, as it's not a hop-driven beer. It's not meant to be an APA. Just a hint of Amarillo.
> 
> Unfortunately you'll probably drink more of it though, because it's quite tangy and refreshing.


Thank you kind sir.  ..... the temptation to drink more may occur but I will just have to regulate myself to X amount daily and see how I go.
Thanks Nick.
Cheers Al


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## hellbent (11/2/13)

hunter551 said:


> With that OG and FG you'll be having about 15 carbs per pint, about the same as a slice of bread. Next time you see your doc ask him about the difference between carbohrdrates and energy and what you should be focussing on.


I have been to "Dr Google" regarding Carbs & Energy and it is interesting reading indeed, well worth the time.
cheers
Al


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## Tex083 (11/2/13)

Well at 70 I reckon you just enjoy your homebrew, there is medication for reducing blood sugar.
I'm a Paramedic and a nurse so I see a lot of pt's try to change and go through a shit time. If it was me I would just enjoy life, beer and try to introduce some exercise into your daily routine.
Have a crack at the low alcohol beers and if there good go for it but don't get too stuck on it. Beer is near 100 on the glycemic index!!!!


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## hunter551 (13/2/13)

Tex083 said:


> Well at 70 I reckon you just enjoy your homebrew, there is medication for reducing blood sugar.
> I'm a Paramedic and a nurse so I see a lot of pt's try to change and go through a shit time. If it was me I would just enjoy life, beer and try to introduce some exercise into your daily routine.
> Have a crack at the low alcohol beers and if there good go for it but don't get too stuck on it. Beer is near 100 on the glycemic index!!!!


Actually beer contains too few carbohydrates to be tested on the GI scale. http://www.beerandcarbs.com/info.htm#error2


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## hellbent (13/2/13)

Tex083 said:


> Well at 70 I reckon you just enjoy your homebrew, there is medication for reducing blood sugar.
> I'm a Paramedic and a nurse so I see a lot of pt's try to change and go through a shit time. If it was me I would just enjoy life, beer and try to introduce some exercise into your daily routine.
> Have a crack at the low alcohol beers and if there good go for it but don't get too stuck on it. Beer is near 100 on the glycemic index!!!!


Now here's a guy that I want as my Doc! ... Thanks mate yeah I do need more exersise and that is on the agenda. Thanx mate

cheers
Al


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## brad81 (13/2/13)

Hi Al,

First check out this resource: https://www.diabetesaustralia.com.au/en/NDSS-Content/Diabetes-Information-Sheets/Alcohol-and-Diabetes/ Diabetes Australia have some good resources available and another Diabetic friendly forum is one called realitycheck.com.au

Then have a chat with your Doc depending on your test results, and you'll be armed with some knowledge and what he suggests might sink in without the whole "information overload" situation. Hopefully he's blunt and just doesn't tell you things you want to hear. Yes they all want us to live to 110, and I do too. 

I've had type1 for over 16 years. It's a rollercoaster that can be managed, but you need to be careful.

Cheers,

Brad


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## pat_00 (30/10/13)

I got diagnosed with type 1 last week. Apparently an auto-immune complication from Pneumonia I had a couple of months ago. I haven't had more than 2 standard drinks a day since being diagnosed.

Been thinking of giving up brewing this last week, but I think I'll stick with it. Just might rethink those plans for a 5 tap kegerator


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## hellbent (30/10/13)

sorry to hear of your misfortune Pat, but believe me it's not the end of the world as far as a beer goes, with a bit of manipulation, and careful management of your diet, a beer can still be enjoyed (although in lesser volumes)

I was supplied a mid strength recipe by NickJD _ (before he was sadly and unceremoniously given the ass by the wise gurus )_ and I found it to be a good beer even for a mid-strength.

I don't know your circumstances whether your overweight or not ( I was way overweight) or your health particulars, but I finished up joining a gym and with that and cutting out on " Wendys" hot dogs and thick shakes whenever I was near a shopping centre, and Maccas with a thickshake on the way home from the pub, I lost 18kgs and I'm feeling a lot better for it.

I wish you well for the future mate, try that recipe of nicks ( #2 in this topic) its not to bad at all.
Cheers
Al

Edit = rewording a sentence


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## JDW81 (31/10/13)

pat_00 said:


> I got diagnosed with type 1 last week. Apparently an auto-immune complication from Pneumonia I had a couple of months ago.





hellbent said:


> I don't know your circumstances whether your overweight or not ( I was way overweight) or your health particulars, but I finished up joining a gym and with that and cutting out on " Wendys" hot dogs and thick shakes whenever I was near a shopping centre, and Maccas with a thickshake on the way home from the pub, I lost 18kgs and I'm feeling a lot better for it.


For those who are interested, a basic endocrinology run down of the different types of diabetes.

Type I diabetes is an autoimmune condition where the body's immune system attacks the cells in the pancreas that produce insulin. Insulin is basically the key that unlocks the door allowing sugar (glucose) into cells so they can function. It can occur sporadically or can be precipitated by a viral or bacterial illness. It can't be reversed and must be managed with insulin. There is a large genetic component to type I, although it still isn't entirely clear. It is irreversible.

Type II diabetes is slightly different. It is basically caused by too many free fatty acids floating around the body, which interrupt the cells in the body's ability to respond to insulin. The pancreas is still able to produce sufficient insulin, it still can bind to cells and fit in the lock, however the pathway that opens the door to let the sugar in is faulty, so the sugar stays in the blood. Some research has suggested there is a minor role for genetics in type 2 (there is in increased prevalence of type 2 in women with poly cystic ovaries for example), however it is generally considered to be a lifestyle disease, and the increasing rates of type 2 pretty much reflect the increasing rates of obesity. In the early stages type 2 is considered to be reversible with changes in diet and very specific exercise, however most people are diagnosed too late for this to be 100% effective, so are prescribed drugs which increase the body's sensitivity to insulin.

There is another diabetes called diabetes insipidus, but that doesn't have anything to do with sugar and is rare as rocking horse s%#t.

JD


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## pat_00 (31/10/13)

Well I can say a beer gut is handy when you need somewhere to inject insulin  I am joining a gym though with view to lose about 8kg or so.

Apart from beer, my diet is really good. Which mostly comes from the fact my partner is a vego 2nd gen hippy.


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## Black n Tan (31/10/13)

High Intensity Interval Training/Exercise (HIIT/HIIE) is a great, time effective way to loose weight, especially fat, and has been shown to improve insulin sensitivity (important in type 2 diabetes). Look up 'life sprints', but see a doctor first to make sure you are up to it. Basically it involves cycling (or somethings similar) at 80% intensity for 8 seconds followed by 12 seconds recovery at 50% intensity, for about 20 minutes, 3 times per week. More effective than jogging 60 minutes every day for weight loss. I have been doing it and have lost 5kg.


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## JDW81 (31/10/13)

Black n Tan said:


> High Intensity Interval Training/Exercise (HIIT/HIIE) is a great, time effective way to loose weight, especially fat, and has been shown to improve insulin sensitivity


Right you are B & T.

High intensity training, interval training, cross fit etc all basically drain your muscles of stored sugar which means they are need to take up more from the blood to keep contracting. The muscles don't have time to wait for insulin to arrive so there are a few other mechanisms which they use to bring in sugar independent of insulin. The reason it is good for diabetes is it pulls the sugar out of the blood, and stops the pancreas from working so hard. The insulin resistance is helped by the loss of weight as those pesky and toxic free fatty acids get burned up and aren't able to short circuit those important biochemical pathways.

JD


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