# First lagering attempt (and when to dry hop a Pilsner)



## WWDWD (17/11/13)

About to do my third batch of beer. After doing two hoppy american pale ales (one just bottled and the other about to be dry hopped) I invested in a fermentation fridge and temp controller. I wanna try make a Pilsner (the GF really likes Little Creatures Pilsner but also loves Heineken and Nastro Azzurro). I don't know much about Pilsners but I know I like 'em. Here's what I've got...


1.5kg can of Morgan's Gold Saaz Pilsner
1.5kg can of Morgan's Extra Pale Malt Extract
I have picked up some Saaz pellets. I need some advice here for what to do. A 20min boil? What quantity?
Saflager S-23 yeast (I read some people use two packets... is this essential?)

From what I've read, the process of making a lager is something like.


Pitch yeast at 16° - 18°
Ferment at 12° for two weeks
D Rest at 16° for a few days
Slowly drop down to 2° or 3° for 6 weeks of lagering
Then bottle

Is that about right?
How long in the bottle does it take a Pilsner to really shine?
If I was to dry hop, at what point do I do it?

Thanks.


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## dent (17/11/13)

> I have picked up some Saaz pellets. I need some advice here for what to do. A 20min boil? What quantity?


Assuming the can has enough for bittering, something like 30g for 20 minutes would be OK.



> Saflager S-23 yeast (I read some people use two packets... is this essential?)


I would rehydrate the yeast and make a starter. Lagers need a lot of yeast, otherwise they suck. Oh and S-23 is so far the worst lager yeast I have used. Any other dry lager yeast would be better.



> Pitch yeast at 16° - 18°
> Ferment at 12° for two weeks
> D Rest at 16° for a few days
> Slowly drop down to 2° or 3° for 6 weeks of lagering
> Then bottle


I pitch at 5 or 6 degrees (pitching lager yeast warm results in an undesirably fruity ferment), then rise to 9-10 degrees a couple days later, then 16 degrees about a week and a half / 2 weeks down the track - when there is only 5 or so gravity points of fermentation left, that is when you raise the temperature. Then I leave it there for a week, then chill slow. If you're bottling, I would keep the bottles for a month at 10-16 degrees or so to carbonate, then keep them in the fridge thereafter. If you just leave the bottles out at room temp, they tend to get fruity and hazy.


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## WWDWD (17/11/13)

Thanks for all the info. What yeast would u recommend?


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## micblair (17/11/13)

2 packs of 34/70. I really rate this yeast. Given your level of investment -- perhaps your ready to give all grain a try? I think if you told the misses it would make an even better pilsner, I'm sure she would sign off on it.


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## dent (17/11/13)

Yeah 34/70 or swiss lager are both OK.


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## verysupple (17/11/13)

In terms of when to dry hop...Wait until this batch is out of the fermentor, you've brewed a batch of something that is suitable to be dry hopped, and go from there  . Pilsners aren't traditionally dry hopped so I wouldn't bother.


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## WWDWD (17/11/13)

I do love a good aroma from my Pils though, it wouldn't hurt to give it a little more somethin-somethin... or would it? I've heard dry-hopping can cause a grassy flavour if left too long, which is why I was concerned about if/when to dry hop.

I might use the fridge in a few days to cold crash the APA I'm about to dry hop. So I'll hold off on the Pilsner til after that. Hopefully I'll have learned a bit more about how to make it by then. In the meantime I'm going to have a go at a toucan coopers stout + coopers dark ale with 500gm brown sugar and both kit yeasts.... now that I have 3 fermenters (1 coopers & 2 x 30L bunnings ones).


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## mwd (17/11/13)

Try this if you have time to allow it to mature. Mine with Muntons stout and Morgans Dark is still bubbling along after two weeks.

http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guild/how-to-brew/strong/russian-imperial-stout

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/15630-battle-of-the-toucans/page-32


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## Black Devil Dog (17/11/13)

I wouldn't be dry hopping with Saaz, it does give a grassy aroma.

A yeast that would go very well is Fermentis S-189.


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## Cube (17/11/13)

Saaz does leave a hint of grass if dry hopped. I use 25-30 grm steeped for 15 minutes in boiled water and toss that into the FV from day one and ferment as usual. This, in my lagers, has been a winner without the 'grass' from dry hopping.


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## lankynibs (22/11/13)

Long time lurker, first time poster here. This thread may be dead, but I'll post my 2 cents.

I also recently made my first lager, Charlie Papazian's Propensity Pilsener from his Complete Joy of Home Brewing book. The recipe calls for Saaz hops for boiling and Crystal hops for aroma, including 1/4 ounce for dry hopping. It spent about 10 days in primary and fermented very actively using the Saflager S-23 yeast pitched at around 60 deg F and brought down to around 50-55 deg F for all of primary fermentation. The OG was 1.066 and I racked to secondary at 1.016 after the kreuzen had fallen. I plan to keep in secondary at around 38-40 deg F for about 3 weeks. The sample tasted good but pretty rough around the edges, but I didn't detect much in the way of butterscotch, so I skipped the diacetyl rest.

At any rate, I recommend the S23 yeast as long as you can get the temp down to the mid 50's F and keep it there for primary. I also heavily aerated the wort and rehydrated the yeast (11 g packet) but didn't bother making a starter. It didn't seem to hurt the fermentation at all - very quick to start and very vigorous.


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## WWDWD (25/11/13)

This is what I ended up doing:
1 x Morgan’s golden saaz pilsner
1 x Morgans extra pale malt extract
30g saaz hops 20min boil in 2L water
Saflager S-23 yeast
23L

Pitched yeast at 20°C

It's been in the fridge at 12°C for 7 days and I've been getting an SG of 1.017 for a few days in a row now (higher than I'd expect the FG to be). It also looks like it's finished (peaking into the glad wrap of my Bunnings 30L fermenter.) Smells and tastes as I expected an unfinished beer to taste. Maybe a little on the sweet side and a small amount of the "cidery" smell I hear about. I am planning to leave at 12° for another 7 days then d-rest and lager then bottle.

What are your thoughts?


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## jaypes (25/11/13)

S-23 is an absolute dog, I would even try 2278


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## WWDWD (26/11/13)

Yeah... I was warned but decided to use it CIA I already had it. What can I do at this stage?


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## Yob (26/11/13)

Wait...


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## jaypes (26/11/13)

Yep, just let it go - its just my experience with that particular yeast had less than spectacular results.


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## WWDWD (30/11/13)

Two weeks since brewing and it's still sitting at 1.017 in the fridge at 12°


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## JoeyJoeJoe (30/11/13)

Mate I am sorry but I think that is too high. In my opinion you should boil up a bit of yeast nutrient add it and give the fermenter a good swirl. I would also raise the temp on the stc to 14-15C. I wouldn't bottle it unless I could get it down to at least 1012ish.

EDIT I have had similar problems with s23 and 34/70. I would like to add another vote for the S189 seems to be the best and apparantly very temperature tollerant.


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## WWDWD (30/11/13)

I don't know much about yeast nutrients but hopefully this might save the beer. What exactly will the yest nutrient do? Wake the yeast up and get it working again? When I add it should I stir up the trub from the bottom of the fermenter to get more yeast action or should there be enough yeast suspended in the beer?

thanks for your help.


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## dent (30/11/13)

Sounds like you're screwed to me. Yeast nutrient will do nothing to help your attenuation. 

I would speculate a lot of the malt extracts are mashed at a high temperature, aiming for a fairly low attenuation, which is appropriate for the usual scenario when they are mixed with a heap of plain sugar - the two even each other out. 

Since the beer is currently undrinkable, one idea might be to make another batch - get another can of hopped extract, along with a kilo or so of sugar, and combine that (mixed over two fermenters or one big one) with your existing batch along with the yeast. Fermentation will start up again and you'll hopefully end up with a large quantity of something drinkable.


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## WWDWD (2/12/13)

I raised the temp to 15 degrees and yesterday added the kit yeast. Some bubbles had formed on top and today the SG is down to 1.011.


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## dent (3/12/13)

Chalk up another "win" for S-23 I guess.


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (3/12/13)

Dunno if anyone has mentioned it. but, you should have pitched 2 packets of s-23 if your brewing at 12oC (I would have done that even if i was brewing a twocan at 18oC). Add the other packet and give the fermenter a good swirl with a sanitised spoon.


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## davedoran (3/12/13)

Sounds like its back on track. I don't think the beer will turn out bad if the fermentation stopped for a while. Maybe leave at 15 for few days then drop back 12deg then cold condition.
As far as the yeast I haven't had much luck with the saf lager yeasts but I have tasted some lagers with them and they were great so I probably didn't have it re-hydrated properly when I used it.


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## WWDWD (18/2/14)

Update:

It's been in the bottle for 3 weeks now (I left it lagering for a few months). 

It's pretty lackluster. Nice and clear but zero head retention and seemingly under-carbed. Very mild flavour. Flavour and aroma is kinda like a very, very mild version Heineken. There are no off flavours though. If it was carbed enough It would be the perfect drink on a hot day. As it is right now though... too watery.

Might make an extract Pilsner next time. Now that I have a few more brews under my belt. Thinking of adding 200g of some sorta steeping grain to help with the head retention. What should I use... Carapils?


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## WWDWD (18/2/14)

Lovely and clear but big bubbles. And that head disappears in less than 10 seconds. I'll try another one every week or so to see if it improves any.


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