# Beerfest 2011 - Presented By The Melbourne Brewers



## brendo (8/12/10)

*



Beerfest 2011


*

*More than $1500 in prizes ... 2 great nights... lots of beer...​*

The Melbourne Brewers are once again running Beerfest at Grand Ridge Brewery, Mirboo North, Victoria from Friday 18th to Saturday 19th February 2010. Entries close 12pm Saturday 5th February 2010.

We are in the process of finalising style categories for this year - all of the usual suspects will be there and the possibility of a few more to come. Make sure you check out the Beerfest website for details of the full style list and entry forms as they come to hand. Entries will be available at all the ususal suspects and a full list will be made avaialble shortly.

There are some great prizes on offer - including: 

- $500 for Champion beer of show;
- Champion Brewer - will have the opportunity to brew a batch of beer at a commercial brewery and the beer will be served on tap (further details to be confirmed shortly).

It really is a great weekend away, with plenty of social activities planned:

- 9 holes of golf on the Friday arvo 
- Spit roast/BBQ on Saturday night. 
- Sunday morning BBQ breakfast. 

All visitors welcome, come and sample the range of Grand Ridge microbrewed beers available on tap at the bar in the brewery-restaurant complex. The bar also features a gallery from where operations in the brewery can be viewed. 

We also encourage anyone interested in judging or stewarding, regardless of experience, to participate in Beerfest. Novice judges are welcome, and will be placed with more experienced judges; and stewards are always in demand. 

Judging and stewarding is a great way to explore beer styles, gain an understanding of what other brewers are doing, and learn a lot that may help your own brewing.

The format includes three judging sessions:
- Friday Evening (from 7pm)
- Saturday Morning (from 9:30am)
- Saturday Afternoon (from 2:00pm)

Feel free to register your interest, further information check out the judging page

For those on a budget, camping is allowed in front of the scout hall (only 100m from the brewery) or you can try your luck in the Scout hall for a minimal fee. Grand Ridge also have a range of more luxurious accommodation options.

Entry forms are in the process of being finalised and will be posted both here and the Beerfest site once available. 

Now is the perfect time to get brewing so you have plenty of entries for this great competition, it is a great way to get feedback on your beers - regardless of your level of experience.

Watch this space for updates!! Mark the dates in your diaries, get brewing and come along to join in the festivities if you can.

Brendan Guild
The Melbourne Brewers


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## brettprevans (8/12/10)

you should get behind this event fellas, its a monumental comp/social weekend on the brew calendar.

plenty of time to get brewing and get your entries in, especially for those who like brewing wheat beers.

and there are quite a few melbourne brewer club members who have done the bjcp course, alsong with experianced brewers who will judge, so your beers will be in excellent hands.


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## geoffd (8/12/10)

Great stuff, avoid the scout hall, the bastards snore & do the worst bloody sulpher farts.


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## BrenosBrews (8/12/10)

I hope there is a specialty category...

:lol:


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## wakkatoo (8/12/10)

will actually submit an entry or 2 this time round  

Did some judging in '09 and had a great time - will see if I can make it down there again. This time to include the golf!

edit-spelling


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## HoppingMad (8/12/10)

Father Jack said:


> Great stuff, avoid the scout hall, the bastards snore & do the worst bloody sulpher farts.



Hey. Some of those farts were mine. :lol: Bloody proud of them too.

A shame not everyone appreciates some of my finest work.

Hopper.

Edit- er yeah, and as you can tell, a lot of fun had by all last year. So get up to Mirboo Nth for what should be another great Beerfest!


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## felten (8/12/10)

can I still enter even if I'm unable to attend?


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## brendo (8/12/10)

felten said:


> can I still enter even if I'm unable to attend?



Definitly mate - attendance isn't required to enter - just means you miss out on all the fun if you can't go. 

Good luck if you decide to enter!!


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## Fourstar (8/12/10)

felten said:


> can I still enter even if I'm unable to attend?



of course! much like VICBREW or any other AABC competition with the typical dropoff locations etc.

This info to follow soon.


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## brett mccluskey (8/12/10)

Father Jack said:


> Great stuff, avoid the scout hall, the bastards snore & do the worst bloody sulpher farts.






wakkatoo said:


> will actually submit an entry or 2 this time round
> 
> Did some judging in '09 and had a great time - will see if I can make it down there again. This time to include the golf!
> 
> edit-spelling






brendo said:


> Definitly mate - attendance isn't required to enter - just means you miss out on all the fun if you can't go.
> 
> Good luck if you decide to enter!!


It's a great weekend and anyone who attends will have a ball :beer: Just watch out for people on billycarts!! :lol:


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## felten (8/12/10)

fantastic


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## Siborg (8/12/10)

Any word on the categories? Or will that be on the entry form?


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## brendo (8/12/10)

Siborg said:


> Any word on the categories? Or will that be on the entry form?



It will be pretty much like last year mate... with possibly a few additions - aorund 9 categories with a pretty good representation of styles along the way. 

All will be clear on the entry forms which will be available soon.


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## brendo (16/12/10)

Categories have now been finalised for this comp - full list avaialble here.


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## felten (31/12/10)

Deleted my post either I'm stupid and misread the date or website was updated, I'm leaning towards the former, either way question answered.


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## brendo (2/1/11)

Bump

Still time to get a quick brew under your belt for this one guys!!

Start brewing and tasting what's on hand - good prizes on offer as always!!


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## schooey (2/1/11)

brendo said:


> The Melbourne Brewers are once again running Beerfest at Grand Ridge Brewery, Mirboo North, Victoria from Friday 18th to Saturday 19th February 2010. Entries close 12pm Saturday 5th February 2010.



:blink:

Soooo.... I'm a bit late for this one?

Victoria - _On the move (back into time )
_


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## Tony (2/1/11)

I may even get a beer or 2 ready to send off to this.

Entered it many years ago and got good feedback and couple of nice broken glass trophies in the mail.

might give it a run again.

cheers


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## brendo (3/1/11)

Tony said:


> I may even get a beer or 2 ready to send off to this.
> 
> Entered it many years ago and got good feedback and couple of nice broken glass trophies in the mail.
> 
> ...



Good to hear Tony - if you get a trophy this year mate we'll make sure that they are safely packed!!


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## Fourstar (3/1/11)

brendo said:


> Good to hear Tony - if you get a trophy this year mate we'll make sure that they are safely packed!!




note to self: next big trophy buy, make em polycarbonate!


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## Siborg (4/1/11)

Gotta bottle some of my scottish ale before I drink it all... its quite good IMO. Maybe try and get a bottle of my pale lager (need feedback) and my latest golden ale just because.

Looking forward to judging for the first time


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## haysie (6/1/11)

I`ll have another dip at this, $11 an entry is a bit rich. Why has it become so expensive? Last year the judges and stewards had to buy their own lunch n dinner, this year I see some sort of organised BBQ happening, but should the entrants pay for that. :unsure: 
Is it all about insurances and the new incorporated model the Melbourne Brewers have taken up? I feel its a prohibitive entry fee. I am a member of Melbourne and I certainly dont agree with $11 a pop. I think its a rip off, if I get some of those tick tick tick no comment judging sheets back.
Time will tell and I wish everyone entering and visiting, good luck, its a great comp.


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## manticle (6/1/11)

How much was last year? I entered 2 bottles but have forgotten the entry fee.

I don't think $11 seems outrageous but maybe if people are entering multiples then 11 for the first, 8 for each subsequent one etc might be a goer.


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## haysie (6/1/11)

I disagree Mants, maybe not outrageous, but prohibitive to some. If the judging is up to scratch, fair enough for $8 or thereabouts. Some sheets just carry ticks n circles n no comments though..... that sucks when you are paying $11, $8 or $5.
It was shown up at Vicbrew that we are lacking judges, the feedback from MH wasnt dire but it wasnt enthusiastic either, i.e need more help next year or maybe no Vicbrew, close enough not verbatim were the words.
Beerfest is the 2nd biggest comp on the Vic calender after Vicbrew, its hosted to some in the middle of nowhere, will it attract quality judging? Will we have to put up with the Vicbrew senario of 2 judges on certain flights and averages? Then other flights having wide spreads? It can be a bit of hit n miss I reckon.
I will enter a couple of brews at the discount of $10 an entry....woo hoo, with caution.


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## manticle (6/1/11)

haysie said:


> I disagree Mants, maybe not outrageous, but prohibitive to some. If the judging is up to scratch, fair enough for $8 or thereabouts. Some sheets just carry ticks n circles n no comments though..... that sucks when you are paying $11, $8 or $5.
> It was shown up at Vicbrew that we are lacking judges, the feedback from MH wasnt dire but it wasnt enthusiastic either, i.e need more help next year or maybe no Vicbrew, close enough not verbatim were the words.
> Beerfest is the 2nd biggest comp on the Vic calender after Vicbrew, its hosted to some in the middle of nowhere, will it attract quality judging? Will we have to put up with the Vicbrew senario of 2 judges on certain flights and averages? Then other flights having wide spreads? It can be a bit of hit n miss I reckon.
> I will enter a couple of brews at the discount of $10 an entry....woo hoo, with caution.



I agree that detailed feedback should be a given for any entry fee. I just couldn't remember what last year's was. The idea of whatever price for first entry then discounts for subsequent ones though has merit yes?


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## haysie (6/1/11)

manticle said:


> I agree that detailed feedback should be a given for any entry fee. I just couldn't remember what last year's was. The idea of whatever price for first entry then discounts for subsequent ones though has merit yes?



Yes :icon_cheers:


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## Siborg (6/1/11)

manticle said:


> I agree that detailed feedback should be a given for any entry fee. I just couldn't remember what last year's was. The idea of whatever price for first entry then discounts for subsequent ones though has merit yes?


Isn't that standard practice? 

P.s anyone be kind enough to let me use their CPBF?


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## Fourstar (7/1/11)

Ok, now to diffuse the situation regarding cost of entries.

As most are aware, The British Ales competition in 2010 was ran exclusively via the compmaster website taking nothing but online entries. There was no traditional entry form. This year for Beerfest 2011 it is in our interest and the entrant to enter via this media. The catch?

If compmaster is still to go ahead as it is my understanding, there will be a $2 discount off the price of entries via this format. In fact, making it cheaper to enter Beerfest than last year.

Offline/Paper Entries: $11 non-club/independent entries, $9 vicbrew related club members
Online Entries: $9 Non-club/independent entries, $7 vicbrew related club members

If you wish to enter via the traditional entry format, this incurs a $2 charge extra per entry. By transitioning to the online entry format, this will ensure the compeition can be run in the smoothest and most accurate format as possible. Something which is quite difficult with a competition of its size.

More to come soon for entering via compmaster... We just need AndyD to 'go live' on the website and we are good to go.

Cheers. :icon_cheers:


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## WarmBeer (7/1/11)

Nice, so we get the benefit of cheaper entry, no need to print out and manually fill-in forms, and I presume we should get faster turn around of results (seeing as all details are already on computer).

Sounds like Win, Win, Win to me!

Wasn't going to bother entering Beerfest this time around, but have a Hop Monster(tm) I might put in as an Imperial IPA.




Fourstar said:


> Ok, now to diffuse the situation regarding cost of entries.
> 
> As most are aware, The British Ales competition in 2010 was ran exclusively via the compmaster website taking nothing but online entries. There was no traditional entry form. This year for Beerfest 2011 it is in our interest and the entrant to enter via this media. The catch?
> 
> ...


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## geoffd (10/1/11)

Like Haysie, I think the prices are getting a bit stiff to be honest & thought the same last year, are the organisers trying to limit entries to keep the comp to a manageable size?
There are plenty of older brewers who are in no way computer literate / dont do online transactions & are going to pay $2 extra per entry, a bit stiff. Surely there are enough members in MB to help with admin to avoid this deterrent?
Why the increase in pricing, prizes have neither increased in value or category range.

Lucky I stumbled across this thread again, as there was no mention of paying online on the entryform. just saved myself a dozen beer tokens.

Seems to me a few extra club members should put their hands up to help organise, not just with admin, it was a small few last year doing all the work with the food too. Perhaps it is lack of delegation or pehaps lack of willing volunteers?

Not trying to put the comp down, it's a great comp, fun location (even if a little remote), great weekend of beer rambling, & always nice to catch up with members of the other brew clubs; It's like meeting all the relatives, it only happens at weddings or funerals (or for homebrewers it's beer comps).


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## haysie (10/1/11)

I think thats a real good post Jack, not only because I agree with you.. but the older members are not up and maybe dont want to be up to Paypal and Visa online stuff. To pay a premium to print out a form,fill it out and drop it off seems not right. Sure monies go missing when brewers drop off and it should not be the drop off point`s responsiblilty to check that....... there are certainly problems re. this side of things. How you get it around I`m not sure? but if there wasnt a cash/chq payment on the bottle when entries are being collated, I dont think it would be much to ph. haysie and say "we aint got payment and cant submit the entry" unless you do this or that.
If Jack the shop assistant needed some fags and borrowed the $ in the envelope, there lies another problem. For years its always worked well as an honesty system.
You can lead a horse to water but cant make it drink etc etc etc

:icon_offtopic: Jack, has that scotch ale aged another year? :icon_drool2:


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## brett mccluskey (10/1/11)

I'm curious to know if these issues have been brought up at club/organising committee level,and if so,what the responses were :drinks:


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## haysie (10/1/11)

toper1 said:


> I'm curious to know if these issues have been brought up at club/organising committee level,and if so,what the responses were :drinks:



Not sure what isues you are referring to Toper?
The issue of entries entered and monies received has been a thorn in the side for some time. The issue of entry fees and how entrants enter is done at a committee level. At a club meet its a bit out of sorts to throw these questions up, i.e rip off entry fees. You trust the judgement of the committee at the end of the day.

In fairness to Melbourne, the orginisation was far from great last year but we had a change of secretary at the last minute, didnt help, i.e the feedback to him re. assistance etc never got thru to the new fella.

Melbourne would love as many entries as we can get.


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## brendo (10/1/11)

toper1 said:


> I'm curious to know if these issues have been brought up at club/organising committee level,and if so,what the responses were :drinks:



Nothing has been brought up directly with club/organising committee, however Fourstar has posted as part of the committee in at least one response. 

I will discuss with the rest of the committee andwe will respond in due course.


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## manticle (10/1/11)

Quite a few beers I'm considering entering although some I may reconsider and some may not be ready.

All could be a bit outside style too - my ESB/IPA* is too strong for an esb and possibly slightly too dark for an IPA. Have another esb finishing off so might be ready in time. My saison was accidentally brewed with Marris Otter (nice result) instead of dingeman's pilsner so has that characteristic british ale feel despite being mashed at 63 and despite hitting 1002.

I also may have a specialty beer ready - cherry ripe porter. Would this go in spec/fruit or spec/other?

*Apologies to Terry Foster but what can I do?


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## haysie (10/1/11)

brendo said:


> Nothing has been brought up directly with club/organising committee, however Fourstar has posted as part of the committee in at least one response.
> 
> I will discuss with the rest of the committee andwe will respond in due course.


Whens due course? It is 3 weeks and a bit from closing.
You Brendo having started the thread, should have far more input than you are offering.


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## brendo (10/1/11)

haysie said:


> Whens due course? It is 3 weeks and a bit from closing.
> You Brendo having started the thread, should have far more input than you are offering.



Due course would be once I have had some feedback from the rest of the committee - I am not the comp organizer, just a volunteer helping out - starting this thread being one of those things. 

As always Haysie - you are more than welcome to directly contact any of the committee members - you have our email addresses and phone numbers. Public forums however are your preferred method of slinging mud and I personally don't appreciate you telling me how I should be spending my spare time or whether I contribute to the club enough. 

Official response, as I said earlier is pending.


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## brett mccluskey (10/1/11)

haysie said:


> Not sure what isues you are referring to Toper?
> The issue of entries entered and monies received has been a thorn in the side for some time. The issue of entry fees and how entrants enter is done at a committee level. At a club meet its a bit out of sorts to throw these questions up, i.e rip off entry fees. You trust the judgement of the committee at the end of the day.
> 
> In fairness to Melbourne, the orginisation was far from great last year but we had a change of secretary at the last minute, didnt help, i.e the feedback to him re. assistance etc never got thru to the new fella.
> ...






brendo said:


> Nothing has been brought up directly with club/organising committee, however Fourstar has posted as part of the committee in at least one response.
> 
> I will discuss with the rest of the committee andwe will respond in due course.


Thanks for the clarification Haysie,i didn't realise these things ie: entry costs,etc,were such an issue with people.I see your point on several things,especially the "ticks and circles" style of judging.Thats lazy judging,and needs to be addressed.My apologies to anyone whose entry i committed that sin on . The issue of more support from members seems be an ongoing one,unfortunately  As for Mirboo being "out of the way" ,i think you city fellas need to toughen up a bit :lol: I travel 6/7 hours to get there ,and then home again, And i don't regret it for a minute,a feckin' great weekend And Haysie,were you the one cuddling up to the "inflateable girlfriend" at the pub in mirboo last year?


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## haysie (10/1/11)

brendo said:


> Due course would be once I have had some feedback from the rest of the committee - I am not the comp organizer, just a volunteer helping out - starting this thread being one of those things.
> 
> As always Haysie - you are more than welcome to directly contact any of the committee members - you have our email addresses and phone numbers. Public forums however are your preferred method of slinging mud and I personally don't appreciate you telling me how I should be spending my spare time or whether I contribute to the club enough.
> 
> Official response, as I said earlier is pending.



I didnt read it as telling you what to do in your spare time. Contrary, since you started the thread and have offered nothing is what I said! If that is mudslinging, bad luck, HTFU is the mantra.
Why would I email you Brendo? theres a forum here that you voluntarily started, but dismissed everybody................ as all good because Fourstar posted.
If you want to sling, start right here....... 




toper1 said:


> Thanks for the clarification Haysie,i didn't realise these things ie: entry costs,etc,were such an issue with people.I see your point on several things,especially the "ticks and circles" style of judging.Thats lazy judging,and needs to be addressed.My apologies to anyone whose entry i committed that sin on . The issue of more support from members seems be an ongoing one,unfortunately  As for Mirboo being "out of the way" ,i think you city fellas need to toughen up a bit :lol: I travel 6/7 hours to get there ,and then home again, And i don't regret it for a minute,a feckin' great weekend And Haysie,were you the one cuddling up to the "inflateable girlfriend" at the pub in mirboo last year?



Never said it wasnt a great weekend Toper :icon_cheers:


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## brett mccluskey (10/1/11)

brendo said:


> Due course would be once I have had some feedback from the rest of the committee - I am not the comp organizer, just a volunteer helping out - starting this thread being one of those things.
> 
> As always Haysie - you are more than welcome to directly contact any of the committee members - you have our email addresses and phone numbers. Public forums however are your preferred method of slinging mud and I personally don't appreciate you telling me how I should be spending my spare time or whether I contribute to the club enough.
> 
> Official response, as I said earlier is pending.


fellas like Brendo,and all MBers, and individuals, who contribute their time and effort to vicbrew,beerfest,and the anhc need to be congratulated,thanked ,and supported,not given shit on here.I find it hard to believe these things can't be discussed at a club meeting,surely thats part of what they're for :unsure: IMO more people prepared to put their hands up to assist with all the "dirty little jobs" wouldn't go astray ie: putting tables and chairs out,washing glasses,etc.These events will only continue with the support of brewers and volounteers,all of whom do it free of charge,Thanks to them all i say :beer:Everyone's entitled to their opinion,but i'd think it'd be fair to bring the issues up with the committee in a first instance,before a public forum, i don't think they bite <_<


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## haysie (10/1/11)

toper1 said:


> fellas like Brendo,and all MBers, and individuals, who contribute their time and effort to vicbrew,beerfest,and the anhc need to be congratulated,thanked ,and supported,not given shit on here.I find it hard to believe these things can't be discussed at a club meeting,surely thats part of what they're for :unsure: IMO more people prepared to put their hands up to assist with all the "dirty little jobs" wouldn't go astray ie: putting tables and chairs out,washing glasses,etc.These events will only continue with the support of brewers and volounteers,all of whom do it free of charge,Thanks to them all i say :beer:Everyone's entitled to their opinion,but i'd think it'd be fair to bring the issues up with the committee in a first instance,before a public forum, i don't think they bite <_<



Gawdd, I sound like I am repeating myself. A public forum too discuss BEERFEST 2011,and then too disagree with entry fees is a pertinent on topic post? I miss your point Toper? Was I meant to take to take it to an email address and disagree. Its a *&&^^ing forum for christ sake and if you dont want responses..... dont thread it. If you dont like the response dont get all personal about it either.
Not sure what brewclub you come from Toper, but Melbourne doesnt have an open committee meeting every month too discuss the decisions they have made, it just comes sort of second hand. Sure they dont bite either but very rarely would a whole committee be at a meeting. Members dont see minutes etc.
I agree these comps need multiple hands on and there are few too offer up. How do you change that? get a whole new brigade of young brewers I guess.
Thats been the push, which is k.
I still stick that the fees are excessive and Father Jack makes a nice scotch ale.


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## brett mccluskey (10/1/11)

haysie said:


> Gawdd, I sound like I am repeating myself. A public forum too discuss BEERFEST 2011,and then too disagree with entry fees is a pertinent on topic post? I miss your point Toper? Was I meant to take to take it to an email address and disagree. Its a *&&^^ing forum for christ sake and if you dont want responses..... dont thread it. If you dont like the response dont get all personal about it either.
> Not sure what brewclub you come from Toper, but Melbourne doesnt have an open committee meeting every month too discuss the decisions they have made, it just comes sort of second hand. Sure they dont bite either but very rarely would a whole committee be at a meeting. Members dont see minutes etc.
> I agree these comps need multiple hands on and there are few too offer up. How do you change that? get a whole new brigade of young brewers I guess.
> Thats been the push, which is k.
> I still stick that the fees are excessive and Father Jack makes a nice scotch ale.


My apologies Haysie :icon_cheers:I wasn't getting personal,all i meant was that if a club member of a club that's organising an event isn't happy about certain aspects of that event then at the very least,thats an issue to brought up at club level firstly. If they're not happy with the response ,then sure ,discuss and bring it up here. But at the very least ,give the organising committee a chance to address concerns ,A bitch fight on a public forum doesn't achieve much IMO I know MB doesn't have an open committee meeting,but you do have a "very ordinary member" rep,and all the committee members ,from Andy D down,i've always found to be very receptive to varying opinions .I don't think you need to address the entire committee to get your concerns listened to By the way,I'm a MBer too,and proud of it :kooi:


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## wakkatoo (10/1/11)

*unsubscribed*

 


Won't be entering Beerfest unfortunately. Not because I don't want to, I just don't have any spare bottle atm...


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## brett mccluskey (10/1/11)

wakkatoo said:


> *unsubscribed*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't worry about that,get your arse there anyway,you'll have a ball,stewards and novice judges are always needed and welcome, :icon_cheers:Saturday night would nearly put a B+S ball to shame :super:


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## haysie (10/1/11)

toper1 said:


> My apologies Haysie :icon_cheers:I wasn't getting personal,all i meant was that if a club member of a club that's organising an event isn't happy about certain aspects of that event then at the very least,thats an issue to brought up at club level firstly. If they're not happy with the response ,then sure ,discuss and bring it up here. But at the very least ,give the organising committee a chance to address concerns ,A bitch fight on a public forum doesn't achieve much IMO I know MB doesn't have an open committee meeting,but you do have a "very ordinary member" rep,and all the committee members ,from Andy D down,i've always found to be very receptive to varying opinions .I don't think you need to address the entire committee to get your concerns listened to By the way,I'm a MBer too,and proud of it :kooi:



Cheers Toper, it wasnt you whom I referred to taking things personal.
A bitch fight was never going to happen for mine, lack of feedback may have led to comments earlier this afternoon. Nevertheless I entirely disagree with your summation of the MB committee. I will not air that here though.

Its a given, there is 3 weeks to go for entries to close, the original poster doesnt know or wont tell if and when things are up n running. Instead bounces off people with no factual matter, a skirt.
A bitch fight on a public forum? Brendo may have got the ball rolling there.


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## Maple (10/1/11)

haysie said:


> Cheers Toper, it wasnt you whom I referred to taking things personal.
> A bitch fight was never going to happen for mine, lack of feedback may have led to comments earlier this afternoon. Nevertheless I entirely disagree with your summation of the MB committee. I will not air that here though.
> 
> Its a given, there is 3 weeks to go for entries to close, the original poster doesnt know or wont tell if and when things are up n running. Instead bounces off people with no factual matter, a skirt.
> A bitch fight on a public forum? Brendo may have got the ball rolling there.


nevermind, this isn't even worth a response.

edit: self moderated


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## haysie (10/1/11)

Maple said:


> Mods, feel free to delete this and every other contribution I have ever made. This is not the place I have learned and shared so much from.
> 
> Wanker.



Glad you signed it Wanker,
Its the same line you cut n paste every time you pull out of a swap.


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## Maple (10/1/11)

haysie said:


> Glad you signed it Wanker,
> Its the same line you cut n paste every time you pull out of a swap.


take it off line. we can settle this like gentlemen.


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## brett mccluskey (10/1/11)

haysie said:


> Cheers Toper, it wasnt you whom I referred to taking things personal.
> A bitch fight was never going to happen for mine, lack of feedback may have led to comments earlier this afternoon. Nevertheless I entirely disagree with your summation of the MB committee. I will not air that here though.
> 
> Its a given, there is 3 weeks to go for entries to close, the original poster doesnt know or wont tell if and when things are up n running. Instead bounces off people with no factual matter, a skirt.
> A bitch fight on a public forum? Brendo may have got the ball rolling there.


Thanks Haysie,I agree with a lot of your points,but we'll have to agree to disagree about the approachability of committee members.It's not my experience in any way :icon_cheers: Your opinions on judging standards are something i agree totally with though,for whatever entry fee ppl pay ,they deserve decent feedback,not ticks and circles,but to be fair to the judges,when things are pushed for time,ie:28 [email protected]!0 minutes per entry,and for some beers, judges discuss certain aspects, things can drag on to make a very long day,and palate fatigue sets in .More ppl volounteering to judge/steward would help ease the strain  And probably improve the standard too,due to judges getting some "time out" to recover :lol:


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## haysie (10/1/11)

toper1 said:


> Thanks Haysie,I agree with a lot of your points,but we'll have to agree to disagree about the approachability of committee members.It's not my experience in any way :icon_cheers: Your opinions on judging standards are something i agree totally with though,for whatever entry fee ppl pay ,they deserve decent feedback,not ticks and circles,but to be fair to the judges,when things are pushed for time,ie:28 [email protected]!0 minutes per entry,and for some beers, judges discuss certain aspects, things can drag on to make a very long day,and palate fatigue sets in .More ppl volounteering to judge/steward would help ease the strain  And probably improve the standard too,due to judges getting some "time out" to recover :lol:



Absolutely no doubt Toper, I remember doing a 37 American Pale Ale flight 2 years ago, they were rooted by the end. I reckon its up to the organising committee to assure judges dont tick n circle though, and a fair spread... I know the spreads are 7, but in most cases you shouldnt get outside of 4. Sure, I here ya re. the push,, Tellem ya not ready if ya not.


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## brett mccluskey (10/1/11)

Maple said:


> take it off line. we can settle this like gentlemen.


Oooommmm!!!


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## haysie (10/1/11)

toper1 said:


> Oooommmm!!!



Maybe the rye beer coming out. Who knows who cares. MB committee member no doubt.


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## brett mccluskey (10/1/11)

haysie said:


> Absolutely no doubt Toper, I remember doing a 37 American Pale Ale flight 2 years ago, they were rooted by the end. I reckon its up to the organising committee to assure judges dont tick n circle though, and a fair spread... I know the spreads are 7, but in most cases you shouldnt get outside of 4. Sure, I here ya re. the push,, Tellem ya not ready if ya not.


I completely agree,My first time judging was 2 years ago ,and out of 28/29 entries myself and the other 2 judges were within 3/4 points ,except for 3 entries The only way standards will improve ,though is if more ppl get involved,Less talk,more action!! :beer: We'll have a beer and discuss it further then ,Haysie :icon_cheers:


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## brett mccluskey (10/1/11)

haysie said:


> Maybe the rye beer coming out. Who knows who cares. MB committee member no doubt.


Who? Me?


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## brett mccluskey (10/1/11)

toper1 said:


> Who? Me?


Simply trying to ease the tension a bit,gentlemen.


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## geoffd (11/1/11)

haysie said:


> :icon_offtopic: Jack, has that scotch ale aged another year? :icon_drool2:



Gone, loooong gone. I made a batch this year, but it didnt come out as good as the 2 previous attempts, so sadly it is extremely unlikely that I can get the 3 in a row, Shame (for me at least) I was looking foward to having a beer oscar made in my likeness for future winners trophy  

Also fully agree with the thread sentiment, ALL THE PEOPLE HELPING OUT DESERVE THANKS & CONGRATS, blank scoresheets (lack of feedback issues) should be reported to the competition organiser, who can in turn educate the particular judge, who may well be a novice, just lazy, feel pressured by the time costraints in judging, be slightly pissed from a long flight. Heaps of reasons why judges aren't perfect, just like the beers


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## DU99 (11/1/11)

the sheets could be checked when there picked up by the stewards,that might help..i know it takes time but people are paying for the product to be judged..


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## fcmcg (11/1/11)

DU99 said:


> the sheets could be checked when there picked up by the stewards,that might help..i know it takes time but people are paying for the product to be judged..


That is a fair point , but IMHO , stewards should not be looking at the score sheet in any great detail


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## Fourstar (11/1/11)

DU99 said:


> the sheets could be checked when there picked up by the stewards,that might help..i know it takes time but people are paying for the product to be judged..




If the judge does it once and its rectified no big deal. If the judge continues to do it on every scoresheet or give one word answers after that, not only are you going to be losing novice judges on tables as they will never come back but the time it takes to judge one beer will double or even triple in time if the judge does not have the vocabulary at this stage in their judging experience to portray on paper what they are tasting/sensing. 

Typically the first flight they are on is a learning experience and in future it may not hurt to have a novice tick-box next to the BJCP one on the scoresheet for VICBREW/AABC sanctioned competitions. 

On the other hand, experienced judges and more importantly BJCP judges in particular should be fingered if they are not completing scoresheets correctly. <_< They must set the standard for all judges. 

Im sure you see the conundrum we have here. 

Infact rather than everyone airing their dirty laundry, do what i did. I too was sick of poor excuses for judging sheets coming back to me so i decided to start judging myself. I hope for every bad scoresheet thats come back to an entrant from someone else, one of mine without almost any free whitespace has met entrants on my flights.

Cheers. :icon_cheers:


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## brendo (11/1/11)

OK... deep breath, lots to cover here...


*Pricing*

Melbourne Brewers have determined the pricing to ensure Beerfest is a viable long term competition, and have set the price structure to ensure that it remains so. As per Fourstar's earlier post, discounts apply for members of VicBrew affliated clubs, with an additional discount available for those who choose to utilise the online entry system.

The upside for you is that if you take advantage of all of the discounts available, entry is cheaper than last year and it is also faster for you to complete. Upside for us is that the comp is easier to run (by the limited volunteers available) and helps to reduce some of the issues that occurred last year which resulted in the comp loosing money.

Offline/Paper Entries: $11 non-club/independent entries, $9 vicbrew related club members
Online Entries: $9 Non-club/independent entries, $7 vicbrew related club members

Online entry will be available by the end of the week and I will let people know as soon as it is available.


*Judging*

Some very valid points have been raised in regards to judging - points which are in no way unique to Beerfest and are common across different competitions - particularly larger ones. 

I completely agree that a score sheet that has little else than ticks and circles is of little use and hardly worth the entry fee for any competition. I have some examples of this kind of judging feedback at home from a variety of comps... fortunately the other judges on the panel have often been more helpful. 

Others have already discussed some of the reasons that this happens - time pressure to keep things moving, a lack of judges leading to fatigue, inexperience, etc. All of these are true and are a common issue regardless of size - from Pale Ale mania with three categories (which struggled for judges) to VicBrew where a number of categories had to be judged by only two people. 

Judging is a skill that continually needs to be honed and exercised - it is not a natural skill, but rather a learned practice. Currently, there is not an active way for judges to practice these skills beyond participating at competitions, however there is a group in its infancy called Beer Judging Australia whose focus will be on providing a continuous education program with the aim to lift the standard of judging. This idea was floated at ANHC, and while I think it is a great one, it will take some time to get going and have an effect. 

As I said above, this is not an issue unique to Beerfest and will be an upcoming topic at the VicBrew level - again, this will take time to resolve.

So what does this mean for Beerfest and other comps in the short term? Competition organizers need to be aware of these issues and do their best to address them at their individual comps - but again this is not something that will necessarily be fixed overnight. 

So what are some quick fixes? Here's some of my ideas which involve everyone taking appropriate responsibility (my opinions only). 

1. If you are judging - look at the scoresheets you are producing. How helpful and informative are you being to the brewer? Would you find this info useful? If you need more time to make this happen - take it, but recognize that there needs to be a balance with timeliness also.

2. If you are are Stewarding, look over the sheets you are collecting. Is there a common pattern where a judge provides a cursory level of evaluation compared to the others? Maybe some feedback is in order...

3. As an entrant - recognize that a judge is not going to find everything wrong with your beer and list everything in minute detail - this would be overwhelming. Typically we try and focus on one or two issues to address. If you feel you are getting a lack of feedback, I would directly approach the competition organisers post the event (contact information is generally available) and discuss it constructively with them. Furthermore, consider speaking with the judge - as I said there is currently no feedback loop for judges on their performance, maybe there should be. 

4. If you're not judging - start!! One quick way to lift the bar is to lead by your own example - learn about judging and get involved. Complete score sheets the way you want to see them, make yourself accountable for what you produce and where appropriate provide constructive feedback to fellow judges. You might find it harder than you think, but if you are actively trying you can't help but lift the overall standard.

As I said above, this is common to many competitions and further discussion should probably be moved to a new topic (happy to participate in it).


*Expanding the competition*

In the spirit of expanding the general homebrewing community, and recognising that this event takes place in Gippsland (an area without an active club/competition scene) Melbourne Brewers have launched a special category for Gippsland based brewers to find out who is the best brewer in Gippsland. It will be judged as an open category (Best of Show style) with entry free (at least for this year). There will be prizes for 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Posters have been sent out to Gippsland based homebrew shops - if you want to enter all you need to do is bring your entry to Grand Ridge between 1:30pm - 2:30pm on Saturday 19/2. Judging will commence at 3pm and awards will be announced as part of the competition awards ceremony Saturday night.


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## brendo (11/1/11)

manticle said:


> Quite a few beers I'm considering entering although some I may reconsider and some may not be ready.
> 
> All could be a bit outside style too - my ESB/IPA* is too strong for an esb and possibly slightly too dark for an IPA. Have another esb finishing off so might be ready in time. My saison was accidentally brewed with Marris Otter (nice result) instead of dingeman's pilsner so has that characteristic british ale feel despite being mashed at 63 and despite hitting 1002.
> 
> ...



Sorry Manticle - VicBrew is still the only competition to have a specialty category at this stage. We considered adding it to Beerfest this year, but logistically it wasn't going to be possible.

Both beers sound awesome though...


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## rich_lamb (11/1/11)

Hmmm, long time since I've posted on AHB!

Some good clarification there Brendo, and I might just add a couple of things from my experience judging and watching other judges.

During the first minutes of judging a beer while the other judges are hopefully silent (it's good to see Mark Hibberd has started expicitly giving this instruction to judges) you will get a few things coming to mind about the beer. DON'T BE AFRAID TO WRITE THEM DOWN!
Lots of judges will hesitate about writing their own thoughts as they are afraid they will look silly if the other judges don't agree, but the fact is you can't be wrong in judging beer so just write it down. It's quite often the case that one judge will pick out one fact about a beer the others miss, and everything is potentially helpful to the brewer.

Don't be lazy - I've seen judges who are happy to talk about what they smelled or tasted but don't write it down. You don't have to write a thesis; even a few words is enough. I find the pen doesn't always do what I want after a while, so my writing gets a bit crap but I'm still putting down everything I thought.

As to the distribution of judges, we always try to make sure there's no more than one novice judge out of three. Last year we had enough judges to rotate the longer flights and have the novice as a fourth judge. This all depends on how many people volunteer their precious time for free to do all this work of course...


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## Siborg (11/1/11)

WOW!  

...should be an interesting meeting next month!


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## Andyd (11/1/11)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> During the first minutes of judging a beer while the other judges are hopefully silent (it's good to see Mark Hibberd has started expicitly giving this instruction to judges) you will get a few things coming to mind about the beer. DON'T BE AFRAID TO WRITE THEM DOWN!



Nicely picked Bitter! I am a really big believer in writing down a "stream of conciousness" with everything you're experiencing, when you experience it. I don't think you should necessarily be locked into stepping through the typical "aroma, appearance..." phases either.

This is something I've built into my "repertoire" when running BJCP study sessions ... it was really well received. Feel free to use it (Siborg - we'll talk more about this)...

Run a session of commercial beer tastings toward the end of the series - say 8 beers, all quite different. Then using the BJCP scoresheet have the judges follow the following protocol:

1) Present the beer. Do not name the style, Do not say anything about it. Just present the beer and have them spend 5 minutes writing everything they experience.

2) Come back 5 minutes later, and give them the style to which they should judge the beer. It doesn't need to be the correct style, in fact it can be helpful to make it an "out of style" example.

3) After another 5 minutes they stop writing, and you reveal the beer's true nature and briefly discuss how the evaluation of that beer went for everyone.

Makes for a long session, but really gets people to stop working with preconceptions of what the beer should be before they even see of smell it. Instead the scoresheet should end up as a record of what was experienced, and then a commentary of those experiences balanced against the style in which it was presented, resulting in its final score.

One of (hopefully) many Gems that will find its way into the BJA website in due course...

Andy


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## Siborg (11/1/11)

Andyd said:


> Nicely picked Bitter! I am a really big believer in writing down a "stream of conciousness" with everything you're experiencing, when you experience it. I don't think you should necessarily be locked into stepping through the typical "aroma, appearance..." phases either.
> 
> This is something I've built into my "repertoire" when running BJCP study sessions ... it was really well received. Feel free to use it (Siborg - we'll talk more about this)...
> 
> ...


Thanks Andy. Will have to pay close attention to this (any other pointers welcome too) as I'll be judging my first flight at Beerfest. Haysie, I'll try my best to give you (edit: and all entrants) some useful feedback, mate.


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## brett mccluskey (11/1/11)

Andyd said:


> Nicely picked Bitter! I am a really big believer in writing down a "stream of conciousness" with everything you're experiencing, when you experience it. I don't think you should necessarily be locked into stepping through the typical "aroma, appearance..." phases either.
> 
> This is something I've built into my "repertoire" when running BJCP study sessions ... it was really well received. Feel free to use it (Siborg - we'll talk more about this)...
> 
> ...


Top stuff Andy One suggestion i'd like to make is for the occasional"ringer" to be put in a catagory.A commercial beer ,of that style,served as if it was an entry.Just to keep the judges on their toes


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## brendo (11/1/11)

toper1 said:


> Top stuff Andy One suggestion i'd like to make is for the occasional"ringer" to be put in a catagory.A commercial beer ,of that style,served as if it was an entry.Just to keep the judges on their toes



Not sure a ringer is necessarily great - doesn't prove a lot to me as commercial beer (like Homebrew) can be a variable beast given improper handling - even if it is an exemplar taken from the guidelines it might quite correctly score poorly. 

However, along those lines... one thing I found quite helpful at both VicBrew and Nationals was the idea of a warm up/calibration beer. Was great for getting the brain primed for evaluation, without it being a competition beer - good to get the first one out of the way without any pressure. Of course saying this - at VicBrew I was provided with a delightful Bud


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## mxd (11/1/11)

for me the big issue as a noob judge was not being able to get another jug of your bock 

But on that I am a noob when it comes to judging, I try to put words down but sometimes I can just say there is something not quite right. I was fortunate enough to judge with CM2 and haysie, so hopefully they could articulate any issues.



brendo said:


> Not sure a ringer is necessarily great - doesn't prove a lot to me as commercial beer (like Homebrew) can be a variable beast given improper handling - even if it is an exemplar taken from the guidelines it might quite correctly score poorly.
> 
> However, along those lines... one thing I found quite helpful at both VicBrew and Nationals was the idea of a warm up/calibration beer. Was great for getting the brain primed for evaluation, without it being a competition beer - good to get the first one out of the way without any pressure. Of course saying this - at VicBrew I was provided with a delightful Bud


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## brett mccluskey (11/1/11)

brendo said:


> Not sure a ringer is necessarily great - doesn't prove a lot to me as commercial beer (like Homebrew) can be a variable beast given improper handling - even if it is an exemplar taken from the guidelines it might quite correctly score poorly.
> 
> However, along those lines... one thing I found quite helpful at both VicBrew and Nationals was the idea of a warm up/calibration beer. Was great for getting the brain primed for evaluation, without it being a competition beer - good to get the first one out of the way without any pressure. Of course saying this - at VicBrew I was provided with a delightful Bud
> [/quoteUpon further thought ,very true  The calibration beer was a great idea,At least the bud wasn't a "lite" :lol:


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## haysie (12/1/11)

Some great points have been made and I take them on board. Some examples of my tick n circle sheets would include what I thought to be experienced brewers who judge lots of events. I have stewarded tables for the same, as Fourstar pointed out, some may not have the vocab so maybe after the event organiser having a quick browse of the sheets would be easy to see no ink, when the judging director organise`s his panel/s next time, he would be aware of this.
Being a good brewer doesnt make a good judge I know, but for instance if I wasnt happy with a poor judging sheet/sheets received I dont have any comeback at all, my money is dead and buried. Not happy meaning non descriptive, no commentary, just ticks n circles. I cant asked for it to be judged again. I can demand my money back from the event organisers, under sufferance they may pay up. 
It maybe pissing in the ocean for a few, but to others, the words farce,unorganised can come to mind and really deter people from an event or in my case entering further events. I wondered where all the judges were at Vicbrew? Did they drop off or were they Pies n Saints supporters. Huge shortage.


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## Fourstar (12/1/11)

haysie said:


> Did they drop off or were they Pies n Saints supporters. Huge shortage.



From what i was told, this was a big issue.

I think _farce _and _unorganised _is going a little too far. This is something thats out of the competition organisers hands. The best an orgnaiser cna do is not allow that judge to judge in any further completitions but where does that leave us? With the already short number of judges who actively put their hand up and those novice judges that are too scared to put their hand up (who would probabaly do an awesome job) we are left with the old problem of 2 judges per table. Which is no good in an ideal judging situation.


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## haysie (12/1/11)

Maybe the yanks got it all wrong with the judging sheet in the first place 
i dont want to be disagreeing but, farcical can hold true i.e amber lagers at Vicbrew2010, 2 judges, the most experienced is running late, the early beers were judged without the experience and received averages, then the experienced judge turned up and away it went. 
Unorganised maybe too far but again I simply refer to allocating of judges, I dont think its rocket science for judges to judge a preferred category, instead of being told to judge a cat they may not be familiar with.


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## brendo (12/1/11)

Fourstar said:


> From what i was told, this was a big issue.
> 
> I think _farce _and _unorganised _is going a little too far. This is something thats out of the competition organisers hands. The best an orgnaiser cna do is not allow that judge to judge in any further completitions but where does that leave us? With the already short number of judges who actively put their hand up and those novice judges that are too scared to put their hand up (who would probabaly do an awesome job) we are left with the old problem of 2 judges per table. Which is no good in an ideal judging situation.



agreed - however rather say "You can't judge in future", I think we need a more educative approach to help improve a judges experience and bring them up to a more suitable level. 

Perhaps by pointing out why it is important to provide an appropriate level of feedback might help the situation - as I said in my earlier post there really isn't much of a feedback loop for judges post an event. Hopefully the BJA may help to address this in the future... but ultimately feedback is critical.

One thing that struck me recently when I read the feedback on my BJCP exam was that generally, the examiner felt that my descriptive ability was really good, however one thing I consistantly failed to do in the exam was tell the brewer in my feedback whether some things were appropriate for that style. This is a critical piece of info and was something I was often missing out - and when I reflected on some of my past judging experience I realised that it had been a weakness of mine - so I have resolved to be more aware of it in the future. 

Without that feedback though - I probably would have remained oblivious to it.

As I said in my earlier post - no simple answers. You can't sanction poor performing judges and preclude them from future involvement - numbers are too short already.


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## brendo (12/1/11)

haysie said:


> Maybe the yanks got it all wrong with the judging sheet in the first place



Interrestingly Haysie... our sheet actually has less things for a judge to tick and flick than the BJCP sanctioned sheet does.

I do think however that by having these available on the sheet it does lead to some laziness on the part of some judges. Primarily it is there to assist with vocab - perhaps a better way would be to not have them on the sheet, but provide the judges with a laminated sheet on the table that can be used as a preference - encouraging more writing.

Of course, this presents a problem in that more writing requires more time. At the end of the day, the descriptors on the sheets help to save some time, but they shouldn't be the sole mechanisim of feedback to the brewer.


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## Fourstar (12/1/11)

brendo said:


> agreed - however rather say "You can't judge in future", I think we need a more educative approach to help improve a judges experience and bring them up to a more suitable level.



Sorry, there was a bit of sarcasm with that statement which went unnoticed but i agree wholeheartedly with your response. Lazyness is the biggest issue and by them not even attmepting to write something down, it does nothing for expanding their vocabulary for future compeitions.


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## haysie (12/1/11)

You guys, Brendo, Fourstar being the new up n coming judges. Whats your take on the "you cant judge if you have an entry".
Isnt this in itself a little antiquated. Judging a flight, you may have tasted that beer at the last meeting last week, in the last case swap, in the last grand final get together. I could pick at least 2 beers in my flight I had drunk in the last 2 weeks. I still judged and scored them how I tasted it, but what`s the difference if it was my beer? The spread of 7 would protect wouldnt it?


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## brettprevans (12/1/11)

haysie said:


> You guys, Brendo, Fourstar being the new up n coming judges. Whats your take on the "you cant judge if you have an entry".
> Isnt this in itself a little antiquated. Judging a flight, you may have tasted that beer at the last meeting last week, in the last case swap, in the last grand final get together. I could pick at least 2 beers in my flight I had drunk in the last 2 weeks. I still judged and scored them how I tasted it, but what`s the difference if it was my beer? The spread of 7 would protect wouldnt it?


ill chime in if i may Haysie

I dont mind it as a guiding suggestion. I recon i could pick most of my own beers in a flight. hence why at vicbrew i didnt offer to judge any category that i entered in. but i agree that if your in a club, chances are youve tasted some of the beers your going to judge. 

of course i cimpletely agree with it being a firm rule for specialty category. cause hell your going to know if that choc cheery, bird carcass, lemon and kaffir lime dry enzime new world lager with belgian yeast is your beer or not :lol: . 

in a large flight like APA (like30 of the bastards) I dont think its so much of an issue.


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## brendo (12/1/11)

haysie said:


> You guys, Brendo, Fourstar being the new up n coming judges. Whats your take on the "you cant judge if you have an entry".
> Isnt this in itself a little antiquated. Judging a flight, you may have tasted that beer at the last meeting last week, in the last case swap, in the last grand final get together. I could pick at least 2 beers in my flight I had drunk in the last 2 weeks. I still judged and scored them how I tasted it, but what`s the difference if it was my beer? The spread of 7 would protect wouldnt it?



I think that the biggest problem with it is not so much being able to pick out your beer and up the score accordingly - as you said the 7 point spread works as some insurance policy there, however the perception of bias (real or imagined) makes it too hairy a proposition for me.

I agree that if you are regularly exposed to an entrants beer prior to the event (via a club, at their place, etc) there is a chance you may pick it out of th eflight - particularly if it is quite good - but no system is perfect. Judging your own beer is a little problematic for me in comps though - raises too many questions about the validity of the process, yadda yadda.

As an interesting aside though, about two years ago I judged one of my own beers in a club night comp (not an official VicBrew sanctioned type) and absolutely caned it. Intersting what a bit of blind objectivity can bring to the party...


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## haysie (12/1/11)

citymorgue2 said:


> ill chime in if i may Haysie
> 
> I dont mind it as a guiding suggestion. I recon i could pick most of my own beers in a flight. hence why at vicbrew i didnt offer to judge any category that i entered in. but i agree that if your in a club, chances are youve tasted some of the beers your going to judge.
> 
> ...



Chime away CM2,
I agree the specialty being a no no, but other categories? sure you can pick your own beer or your mates etc etc, but the threshold of the 7 would protect you and others. The spreads afterall can be boggling at times. So, I would see no problem with an entrant judging any cat besides chicken carcass apricot guenze.

Just throwing it out there.


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## brettprevans (12/1/11)

your probably both right. but its the perception. just say that you judged a cat with your own beer and it won. say the judges had a spread of only 3 points. you recon people are going to be suss and dirty. let alone if it won BOS. 

i think its more to do with preception and removing most if not all potential for cheating/fudging/bias. I know i didnt specifically tell the other boys who were judging what beers i was entering, i and tried to make sure i didnt know what they were entering (mainly), until we found out which cats we were all judging

anyways back to the OP - im just pissed that ill be in sydney with work and miss out on this comp. otherwise id be there with the golf clubs and judging


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## brendo (12/1/11)

citymorgue2 said:


> anyways back to the OP - im just pissed that ill be in sydney with work and miss out on this comp. otherwise id be there with the clubs and judging



Just make sure you can enter mate... :beerbang:


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## Andyd (12/1/11)

haysie said:


> Chime away CM2,
> I agree the specialty being a no no, but other categories? sure you can pick your own beer or your mates etc etc, but the threshold of the 7 would protect you and others. The spreads afterall can be boggling at times. So, I would see no problem with an entrant judging any cat besides chicken carcass apricot guenze.
> 
> Just throwing it out there.



There was another case recently (within the last two years) where someone won a category in which they were judging which caused a certain amount of discussion and embarassment, which was unfortunate and undeserved as it turns out.

Being an international volleyball referee, I can tell you that whilst I act completely professionally and in an unbiased manner, there is no way I would ever be assigned to a match in which Australia was playing - primarily (as Brendo suggested) to protect me from any potential accusations of bias and/or corruption.

I think the policy is in general sound and protects judges being inappropriately accused/flamed or (in rare circumstances I'm sure) tempted to act improperly.

That's my belief... others will vary.

[bugger - just read CM2's post... c'est la vie  ]


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## DU99 (12/1/11)

My question how would the judges know whose beer it was i thought it was total unknown..


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## haysie (12/1/11)

You cant tell me, judges havent tasted certain "good" beers and immediatly pick up on them in the flight. This happens.. I posted above  , that was the cat I was allocated and it so happened it was beers I had tasted days prior. If that beer was my wifes and tasted great, met guidelines and won........... yeah I see a problem.
Judges can be and are subjective and brew to particular styles and enter in that style, hence end up judging a cat they may have no interest in, thats the part that bothers me, good judges going to waste because they have an entry.


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## TerritoryBrew (14/1/11)

Mine will be the only Territory beer I think. I doubt if anyone else will enter. 

BTW, I will come last in wheat beer. Nice to be considered though.


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## brett mccluskey (14/1/11)

haysie said:


> You cant tell me, judges havent tasted certain "good" beers and immediatly pick up on them in the flight. This happens.. I posted above  , that was the cat I was allocated and it so happened it was beers I had tasted days prior. If that beer was my wifes and tasted great, met guidelines and won........... yeah I see a problem.
> Judges can be and are subjective and brew to particular styles and enter in that style, hence end up judging a cat they may have no interest in, thats the part that bothers me, good judges going to waste because they have an entry.


My 2c's I object to the idea that as a judge I'm "subjective" . I've brewed a lot of styles over the years and i would never favour one over another. Just because a judge has an entry in one cat. doesn't mean he/she can't judge another cat. and do the entries as much justice. IMO any judge that isn't prepared to judge non-preferred styles/classes,isn't serious about judging beer .I judged Pale Lagers and Specialties at Vicbrew and although at first(and probably second)  I wasn't looking forward to the lagers ,i now appreciate the experience.It's a real test to judge beers in the style of VB ,with minimal taste.NO.im not joking.Specialties were a blast! Judging a beer with no style guidelines,only judging ultimately.on drinkability,was great  Good judges shouldn't go to waste IMO,because GOOD judges should always be prepared to expand their judging skills,and that means experiencing ,tasting ,and judging ALL the styles of beer, I really hope that anyone who's lucky enough to judge at a comp. would be prepared to give any class a go.Apart from making life a lot easier for judging organisers,you improve your own skills. :super:


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## geoffd (14/1/11)

Andyd said:


> Being an international volleyball referee, I can tell you that whilst I act completely professionally and in an unbiased manner,



Lol Andy, I'm sure you keep your eye on the ball, er.. em.. something round anyway 

I think the point of perception is important & also the point of judging outside your comfort zone, just for the sake of avoiding peoples intergrity being questioned (not that I have any doubts of any of their honesty) it's probably sensible to keep the rule as is.


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## Fourstar (14/1/11)

I dont think its even worth discussing to be honest. Its like a doctor operating on a friend or a supreme court judge ruling over one of their families cases.

Clouded judgment and knowing somones beer you have tasted is in your flight is enough for any judge to start searching for those flavours or keeping an eye out for them. Will i give them a biased score? Of course not. Not only is it unethical, chances are it could be somone elses beer anyway. My palate perception and score given will be that of how it matches against the guidelines. It could be the best dunkelweizen ive ever tasted but if it doesnt match the Fruit Lambic category, its going to score poorly.


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## HoppingMad (14/1/11)

So what are people entering?

I'm scratching around trying to figure out if I have anything decent for this but will definately be coming up.
Tend to not brew to styles over the holiday season - which means I have stuff that falls into specialty or just plain mongrel beer.

Some of the stuff laying around in the brew cellar:
- An american brown that's red and the hops have dulled off and tastes almost english (doesn't really fit anywhere).
- An aussie pale ale that tastes like a euro lager because I used Special B in it in combination with pils and Super Pride (yep weird I know), 
- A great american pale ale that's tasty enough but I forgot the whirlfloc, so it's as cloudy as a coopers!

How many points off for a hazy APA that tastes good judges?  

Hopper.


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## brendo (14/1/11)

HoppingMad said:


> How many points off for a hazy APA that tastes good judges?
> 
> Hopper.



Appearance is only worth a couple of points mate... so if you reckon it is good, give it a bash!!


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## brettprevans (14/1/11)

HoppingMad said:


> How many points off for a hazy APA that tastes good judges?
> 
> Hopper.


so we all know to cane the hazy APA now cause its yours! :lol: 

im seriosuly running out of time to enter anything. which is a real shame. damn me and penachant for 'no style' brewing. maybe i can get my experimental wheat up and ready for the comp....


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## mxd (14/1/11)

HoppingMad said:


> So what are people entering?



I'm planning on a Bock, schwarzbier (lagering at the mo), apa (in fermenter at the mo), and a Boh Pil or Butterscotch Boh Pil


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## WarmBeer (14/1/11)

HoppingMad said:


> So what are people entering?


Don't really have anything to style at the moment:
- A cloudy Aussie Pale Ale fermented with US-05 and late addition of POR flowers?
- A hop monster IIPA with 200+ calculated IBU's?
- A straight-down-the-line Dr Smurto's Golden Ale?

All good beers, imho, but I don't see how I could shoehorn them into any of the available styles? Give me another couple of weeks and I'll have a to-style Porter ready, but not before 5th of March, I'm afraid.


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## zebba (14/1/11)

Don't make me go looking for information on my own people...

Am I right in saying there is no specialty category? And what is the minimum entry amount? 

If there is a special cat, and if you are prepared to accept a single stubby (_maybe_ two), I was toying with entering the eis-ale I brought to the vic caseswap. But I only have 4 stubbies left, and it's a very precious drop...


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## brendo (14/1/11)

Zebba said:


> Don't make me go looking for information on my own people...
> 
> Am I right in saying there is no specialty category? And what is the minimum entry amount?
> 
> If there is a special cat, and if you are prepared to accept a single stubby (_maybe_ two), I was toying with entering the eis-ale I brought to the vic caseswap. But I only have 4 stubbies left, and it's a very precious drop...



Sorry mate... only VicBrew has a specialty category at this stage - it is in disucssion for possible inclusion in the future however.

edit: oh and I remember tasting that beer... :super:


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## mxd (14/1/11)

Zebba said:


> Don't make me go looking for information on my own people...
> I was toying with entering the eis-ale I brought to the vic caseswap. But I only have 4 stubbies left, and it's a very precious drop...



that was a great drop.


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## zebba (14/1/11)

brendo said:


> Sorry mate... only VicBrew has a specialty category at this stage - it is in disucssion for possible inclusion in the future however.
> 
> edit: oh and I remember tasting that beer... :super:


Thanks Brendo - in both counts.

Mk2 is next in the brew line. Not sure whether to tweak or leave as is... I fear that my personality type is beyond NOT tweaking.


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## WarmBeer (14/1/11)

Zebba said:


> Thanks Brendo - in both counts.
> 
> Mk2 is next in the brew line. Not sure whether to tweak or leave as is... I fear that my personality type is beyond NOT tweaking.


OCD?


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## zebba (14/1/11)

WarmBeer said:


> OCD?


I think it's more like ADHD.


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## mxd (14/1/11)

where's everyone staying, the brewery accomadation is out, are you just pitching tents or somewhere else that can be got too ?

is there taxi's ?

cheers
Matt


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## MeLoveBeer (14/1/11)

mxd said:


> where's everyone staying, the brewery accomadation is out, are you just pitching tents or somewhere else that can be got too ?
> 
> is there taxi's ?
> 
> ...



Extremely unlikely to be taxi's out there mate... I'm just doing my usual trick and leaving it till the last minute (swag, tent or scout hall I think)


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## Fourstar (14/1/11)

MeLoveBeer said:


> Extremely unlikely to be taxi's out there mate... I'm just doing my usual trick and leaving it till the last minute (swag, tent or scout hall I think)



the more normal people in the scouthall the better i think. lastyear was nassssty!


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## brett mccluskey (14/1/11)

mxd said:


> where's everyone staying, the brewery accomadation is out, are you just pitching tents or somewhere else that can be got too ?
> 
> is there taxi's ?
> 
> ...


Tents,swags, the scout hall,or in some peoples case the garden bed


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## MeLoveBeer (14/1/11)

Fourstar said:


> the more normal people in the scouthall the better i think. lastyear was nassssty!



I was told that plugs for the ears and nose are essential if staying in the scout hall?


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## brett mccluskey (14/1/11)

MeLoveBeer said:


> I was told that plugs for the ears and nose are essential if staying in the scout hall?


  And possibly for the tent area too..  Some ppl snore very loudly...Who? Me? Never!! :lol:


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## haysie (16/1/11)

If your playing the golf on Friday, Get a cart and a GPS on ya ball! Some big hills and big rough.


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## manticle (16/1/11)

Quick stupid question:



> All Categories: Brewers may enter a maximum of 2 entries.



means 2 entry maximum per category or 2 overall (I'm inclined to think the former).


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## haysie (16/1/11)

manticle said:


> means 2 entry maximum per category or 2 overall (I'm inclined to think the former).



per category Manticle


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## manticle (16/1/11)

Thanks D


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## mxd (16/1/11)

i'll be doing the golf, fortunatly I don't hit far 


haysie said:


> If your playing the golf on Friday, Get a cart and a GPS on ya ball! Some big hills and big rough.


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## haysie (16/1/11)

mxd said:


> i'll be doing the golf, fortunatly I don't hit far



Shes a good course, well maintained w/ fast even greens. The downside is, its very hilly, the rough/trees are very dense. I had to near carry Arthur last year after the 18th, its a demanding course.

ps... book a cart, easier to carry the brews as well.


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## hewy (17/1/11)

What's happening with the online entry form?

I just took a look at the beerfest website and it says 'weblink coming soon'...


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## mxd (17/1/11)

haysie said:


> ps... book a cart, easier to carry the brews as well.



will do, have we got times teed up or do we just rock on in ?


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## HoppingMad (17/1/11)

citymorgue2 said:


> so we all know to cane the hazy APA now cause its yours! :lol:



Oops now I've done it!  

Two points off hmmm... might chance it or might try and get a fresh entry brewed in the limited time I have left. Have a stout cubed up now, so might give that a crack if it comes up ok.

Hopper.


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## haysie (17/1/11)

mxd said:


> will do, have we got times teed up or do we just rock on in ?



last year a few met at Grand Ridge after lunch, others whom wernt aware of this just rocked up and played.


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## aaronpetersen (19/1/11)

I'm keen to enter (my first comp) but all my beer is in stubbies. Can I tape two stubbies together in lieu of a longneck and enter them?


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## brett mccluskey (19/1/11)

I'm not too sure about that,you might want to pm Brendo to check,but i'd doubt it.To start with ,you might not be doing your entry justice,cos one stubbie mightn't be the same as the other,and judges generally need 500ml at least for the flight.Mixing 2 different stubbies might not be fair to yourself if one isn't up to par  Might well be wrong though,and i'm sure someone will correct me if i am


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## brendo (19/1/11)

AaronP said:


> I'm keen to enter (my first comp) but all my beer is in stubbies. Can I tape two stubbies together in lieu of a longneck and enter them?



Hi Aaron

This is not a problem - just make sure that they are kept together and probably a good idea to have an entry form attached to both - just mark them as bottle 1 of 2, bottle 2 of 2 to avoid confusion. 

Good luck!!


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## aaronpetersen (20/1/11)

brendo said:


> Hi Aaron
> 
> This is not a problem - just make sure that they are kept together and probably a good idea to have an entry form attached to both - just mark them as bottle 1 of 2, bottle 2 of 2 to avoid confusion.
> 
> Good luck!!



Great! Thanks Brendo.
Watch out all you Doppelbockers!


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## brendo (21/1/11)

Guys,

Online entry is now available and deadline for entries has been extended for another week until 12pm Saturday 12th of Feburary 2011.

More details are available in the new thread here.


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## rich_lamb (21/1/11)

Woohoo! The online entry system is great - I've just entered my beers for the comp.

And there's still a few judging spots left too I see (from the website).

Has anybody thought of bringing a luminous football for Saturday night, or will we just do our usual job of drinking what we can from the taps Grand ridge before going down and showing the locals how not to play pool?


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## Fourstar (21/1/11)

Glad you like the entry process online B&T. We have been hoping it would be painless for entrants and i think AndyD has done a fantastic job at setting it up. 

Love it or hate it, this is the future of competition entry process and we have to ride with the changes. IMO everyone has to jump onto a PC to print out their entry forms so why not do it all online? Seems quite logical to me. I'm going to do mine tonight (hopefully) and i bet it will take a 1/4 of the time it takes me to do it on paper. Not to mention having to organise the correct amount of money in cash for 1/2 doz entries. All paid up, direct from paypal. Secure, convenient and efficient.


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## brett mccluskey (21/1/11)

Bitter & Twisted said:


> Woohoo! The online entry system is great - I've just entered my beers for the comp.
> 
> And there's still a few judging spots left too I see (from the website).
> 
> Has anybody thought of bringing a luminous football for Saturday night, or will we just do our usual job of drinking what we can from the taps Grand ridge before going down and showing the locals how not to play pool?


Soccer or afl ball ? and i hope i don't get Australian style Pale Lagers !


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## GrumpyPaul (21/1/11)

A question from a competition virgin....

I have a Raspberry wheat beer I am considering putting in.

Which of the categories would it fit under (if any)

I can see there is a wheat beer "style" but I dont know enough about the categories to know if I would fit in.

I had a look at the BJCP site and see that there is a Fruit beer style.

Does a raspberry wheat bear classify as a wheat beer or fruit beer?

If it is a fruit beer does that mean it does fit the Beerfest styles?

Thanks


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## brendo (21/1/11)

BoroniaNewBrewer said:


> A question from a competition virgin....
> 
> I have a Raspberry wheat beer I am considering putting in.
> 
> ...



Sorry mate - Beerfest does not currently run a specialty category (where this beer would fit). 

Currently the only comp catering for specialty beers is Vicbrew. 

Cheers

Brendo


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## GrumpyPaul (21/1/11)

Ok brendo - how about this one.

When I made it the recipe I found called it a Cranberry Maibock. But I am starting to think it is justy another "fruit beer"

I see that Maibock is one of the categories...

The original recipe said it was - but you cant believe everything your read on the interweb can you


1 can Blackrock Whispering Wheat Malt Ext
1 Can Black rock Light Unhopped Malt Ext
2 cups Honey
2 Cinnamon Sticks
3 or 4 can Whole Cranberry Sauce (pureed)
4 Whole Allspice berries
2 jars Orange Marmalade (10oz)

????

Thanks 
Paul


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## brendo (21/1/11)

Hey Paul

The problem is mate that you have both fruit and spices in there - which you would not expect in a classic representation of the style - so you would lose points for it. If entered in a specialty fruit category, you would do better. 

I don't think this would fare well outside of a specialty entry. Nothing stopping you from entering it for feedback on fermentation, etc. If you were to enter it, I would probably lean more to a wheat or Belgian entry - hard to advise further without trying it. 

Cheers

Brendo


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## big78sam (21/1/11)

brendo said:


> Sorry mate - Beerfest does not currently run a specialty category (where this beer would fit).
> 
> Currently the only comp catering for specialty beers is Vicbrew.
> 
> ...



I have to stop putting Rye in all my IPAs! I've got a cracker I'm drinking at the moment but 20% Rye puts it outside the IPA style guidelines.


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## brendo (21/1/11)

big78sam said:


> I have to stop putting Rye in all my IPAs! I've got a cracker I'm drinking at the moment but 20% Rye puts it outside the IPA style guidelines.



1. Don't stop using rye... You will make Maple cry

2. Depends on how prominent it comes across in the flavour I guess - depending on how hoppy it is you might get away with it, but if it has loads of rye spice, it could be problematic.


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## GrumpyPaul (21/1/11)

OK - third time lucky....hopefully one of these fits a category.

My problem is I just makes beer and have no idea about styles - then I try fit what I make to a style.
Perhaps I should start the other way around

Dark Ale -perhaps???

*Choc Coffee Ale

*1 Can ESB Darling Downs Draught.
1kg LDME
250ml expresso coffee
120g Black Patent Malt
120g Chocolate Malt
120g Dark Crystal Malt
45 g Willamette Hops @ 45 mins
10g Willamette @10mins
Nottingham yeat


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## brendo (21/1/11)

Depending on how pronounced the coffee flavour is - maybe a brown porter or dry stout perhaps? Possibly an Aust Dark/old ale (not familiar enough with the style). 

Grab a bottle, sit down with the style guidelines and see what you taste to work out where it fits best.


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## Maple (22/1/11)

big78sam said:


> I have to stop putting Rye in all my IPAs! I've got a cracker I'm drinking at the moment but 20% Rye puts it outside the IPA style guidelines.


Rye is NOT a style limiter. You can use it in a pale lager and still fair well. Besides, it's down to the judges pallet and their interpretation of the style. Personally, not many beers that I make come out rye-free. 20% is just a hint anyway! Enter it. (and send one to me  )


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## big78sam (22/1/11)

Maple said:


> Rye is NOT a style limiter.



Unfortunately the style guidelines for American IPA say "Versions with a noticeable Rye
character should be entered in the Specialty category." I don't know of any other style that specifically say that Rye is not appropriate. 

I'm down to my last few so I think I'll just enjoy them and not going to enter as I know it is outside the guidelines and brew another for Vicbrew. Maybe one with and another without Rye so I can enter into AIPA and specialty...


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## Fourstar (22/1/11)

brendo said:


> 2. Depends on how prominent it comes across in the flavour I guess - depending on how hoppy it is you might get away with it, but if it has loads of rye spice, it could be problematic.



This point is the key. Generally i find rye, especially in really BIG and hoppy beers (Looking at maple) The rye character blends with the hop bill quite well and the upfront characters of rye which you would notice in any other beer take the backseat. Most judges wouldnt pick up on it. its a distinct flavour but mixed with a wall of hops in an IPA, I treat it like any other specialty malt. e.g. biscuit/melanoiden/vienna.



Maple said:


> Rye is NOT a style limiter. You can use it in a pale lager and still fair well. Besides, it's down to the judges pallet and their interpretation of the style. Personally, not many beers that I make come out rye-free. 20% is just a hint anyway! Enter it. (and send one to me  )



Agree and as noted above



big78sam said:


> Unfortunately the style guidelines for American IPA say "Versions with a noticeable Rye
> character should be entered in the Specialty category." I don't know of any other style that specifically say that Rye is not appropriate.
> 
> I'm down to my last few so I think I'll just enjoy them and not going to enter as I know it is outside the guidelines and brew another for Vicbrew. Maybe one with and another without Rye so I can enter into AIPA and specialty...



If you are just wanting feedbeack in specilty category, ignore the below. if you are shooting for medals, keep reading.

Between you and me and as a judge who has judged specialty category at VICBREW before. Unless the rye in your RIPA is massive, unique and all out the most interesting beer you have ever brewed. Do not enter it in the specialty category. It will fair 10* better in the IPA category by simply brewing your typical recipe and adjust the late hopping x2. By the time they get to yours, their palates are shot by hops so if the aroma stands out like the proverbial dogs... the better. the points you will not gain (you wont loose anything for having rye) is if its imbalanced due to rye or distinctly rye but as i said. Most probabaly wont pick up on it in HB examples.

I know the BJCP guidelines say otherwise but trust me, when you get beers in specialty it has to be really unique, innovative AND hit that flavor descriptor on the head otherwise it doesnt fair well (and by well i mean over 35 points). Its all about pushing the boundaries in most judges eyes.

E.g. a oak aged chocolate porter for example. It better have noticable oak thats balanced with BEAUTIFUL cacao notes, be a good example of a porter (they better give a sub style to go with it as well or otherwise they are being to generic IMO) and all in all a great harmony between those three things.

I hope this helps.


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## Maple (22/1/11)

That's what I'm trying to convey, however not so eloquantly. Enter it.


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## haysie (23/1/11)

Wow, that Dark Lager and Ale is a vast category  

Vienna Lager, Oktoberfest/Marzen, North German Altbier, California Common Beer,
Munich Dunkel, Schwarzbier, Northern English Brown Ale, Southern English Brown Ale,
Australian Old/Dark Ale, Dusseldorf Altbier, American Brown Ale, American Amber Ale

Just checking my stocks, I have 5 potential entries in this cat. hmm :unsure:

edit, delete "now"


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## Fourstar (23/1/11)

haysie said:


> Wow, that Dark Lager and Ale is a vast category
> 
> Vienna Lager, Oktoberfest/Marzen, North German Altbier, California Common Beer,
> Munich Dunkel, Schwarzbier, Northern English Brown Ale, Southern English Brown Ale,
> ...




Guess who currently has the joy of judging it! :icon_cheers:


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