# Fire sprinkler head as wort return?



## philistine (20/6/17)

I just had this idea of using an overhead fire sprinkler nozzle as a wort recirc/return in a mash tun...
Has anyone tried it?

I reckon it'd be rad

having a hard time finding stainless ones though - at least at a decent price and/or in quantities of less than a bazillion....

I've also seen these siphon spray plastic nozzles.... Does anyone have or know of a decent SS substitute for one of these?


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## Ducatiboy stu (20/6/17)

You could be onto something there


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## nosco (20/6/17)

Theres a American 1v brew machine on youtube that uses one. I cant remember the name of it sorry.


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## Bridges (20/6/17)

I'd often wondered about using one of these, not that I have mind you.


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## philistine (22/6/17)

yeah same! I just cant figure out exactly what kind of spray they throw out........
The fire sprinklers kinda throw out a dribbly circular curtain of sorts (i had a real hard time trying to think of a way to describe that btw) which I reckon would be ideal for the purpose...
But yeah, im serisouyl thining about getting one of the ones in you link to try it out


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## DJ_L3ThAL (24/6/17)

For a wort return is a "spray" a bad idea?


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## technobabble66 (24/6/17)

^+1.
I'd be concerned with the risk of HSA (Hot Side Aeration) when using a sprayer in the mash tun. 
It would definitely be a concern for wort return, but even for spraying in sparge water it might still be an issue. At mash temps (~60-80°C) you're pretty much bang on the range that, in theory, is ideal for creating the initial oxidising reactions that result in HSA flaws later on in the finished beer - IE: oxygen can still dissolve into the wort to a sufficient extent, and the moderately high temperature results in a reasonable reaction rate. I'd assume using a spray head is about the best way to oxygenate a liquid short of pumping O2 into it, so it seems like a bad idea in a MLT. 
Happy to be proven wrong, however i'd be staying well away from it for wort/sparge return. 
(it's a pity, as it's a great way to get nice even liquid dispersal across the top of the grain bed)


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## Tony121 (24/6/17)

technobabble66 said:


> ^+1.
> I'd be concerned with the risk of HSA (Hot Side Aeration) when using a sprayer in the mash tun.
> It would definitely be a concern for wort return, but even for spraying in sparge water it might still be an issue. At mash temps (~60-80°C) you're pretty much bang on the range that, in theory, is ideal for creating the initial oxidising reactions that result in HSA flaws later on in the finished beer - IE: oxygen can still dissolve into the wort to a sufficient extent, and the moderately high temperature results in a reasonable reaction rate. I'd assume using a spray head is about the best way to oxygenate a liquid short of pumping O2 into it, so it seems like a bad idea in a MLT.
> Happy to be proven wrong, however i'd be staying well away from it for wort/sparge return.
> (it's a pity, as it's a great way to get nice even liquid dispersal across the top of the grain bed)



What if it is submerged?


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## technobabble66 (24/6/17)

If it's under the liquid surface, and isn't creating vortex aeration etc, then should be fine. 
Might be a great idea in that case. 
... All depends on whether you then start digging out the grain bed, now that the momentum of the liquid is not being dispersed at the surface.


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## SBOB (24/6/17)

Tony121 said:


> What if it is submerged?



or what if HSA is just a myth


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## Tony121 (24/6/17)




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## MHB (24/6/17)

HSA isn't a myth, it causes a measurable effects. The question is whether or not that bothers you enough for you to take steps to avoid/reduce those effects in your beer. Admittedly the results of HSA are more obvious as the beer ages, so if you are making drink ASAP beer it probably isn't of major concern - but it is still real!

The problem with most any sort of spray device is that they are all designed for high flow or high pressure, neither of which states are readily available to a wort return where the return volume is severely limited by/to how much wort you can get to go through the grain bed without pulling the bed down so tight it sets like cement.
There are lots of better ways to achieve a good even distribution of the wort over the grain bed, without spending money on equipment that wont work or even increases the harm done by O2 uptake.
Mark

Tony121 - very lateral...


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## technobabble66 (24/6/17)

SBOB said:


> or what if HSA is just a myth


Lol. 
That's why I was saying it's "a concern" rather than breaking a law of thermodynamics etc; and just that I personally wouldn't do it. 
It's always up to the brewer to decide if they're going to bother minimizing HSA (as with many brewing issues [emoji57]), given there used to be so much paranoia about it in previous years that now seems to be blown a bit out of proportion. 
Personally, I think it's pretty safe to trust the beer/food science as correct in it's fundamentals. There seems to me to definitely be legitimate concern with oxidation chemistry in brewing. Having said that, there also appears to be certain times where it's particularly relevant and other times where it's not. I think the excessive concern around it in years past was borne from only partial understanding of the chemistry involved and misunderstanding exactly *when* it's a risk. 

Also, it's perhaps a bit style & circumstances dependent. 
If I was brewing a lager/Pilsner or a very hops-driven beer &/or I wanted to savour it over 6-12 months I'd be thinking about minimizing HSA. If I was brewing an ESB to smash in the next month, I'd probably not care too much about it. 
To be fair, oxygen exposure at packaging could probably have a much greater impact in staling the beer. 

It's all about understanding the consequences of the corners you're choosing to cut and weighing up the individual and collective risks. [emoji6]

Edit: MHB beat me to it.


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## Tony121 (24/6/17)

I am still very much a novice and wouldn't know how much of an issue HSA can be, I was just dicking around.

Though I do know that MHB is certainly correct in regards to the need for high flow/pressure if wanting to use a sprinkler head or spray nozzle/ball, they simply won't work very well without it.


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## MHB (24/6/17)

Tony, I thought it was quite clever and enjoyed it.
The problem is that there are so many effects on beer through the production process that we cant fully address all of them, there will always be compromises.
On HSA just taking basic steps to reduce unnecessary O2 uptake is probably all most brewers need to do. I have taken to using a small addition of Metabisulphite in my water, it removes both Chlorine and Oxygen, then exercise reasonable care not to pick up more than I can avoid.
Returns under the surface or from the bottom of tanks where applicable, avoid splashing or vortexes... but I wouldn't get into a panty bunch about HSA, just be sensible.
Mark


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## philistine (24/6/17)

we're talking about HSA pre-boil here.... I was under the impression HSA that DAMAGETH THINE BEER is that which occurs post-mash & post-boil....?


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## MHB (24/6/17)

Then you were under a misapprehension. Oxygen uptake and damage can start as soon as malt is milled, during storage, during mashing, boiling, in the whirlpool, during transfer and even in the stored wort if you are no-chilling...
And there is plenty of ways Oxygen can harm beer during and after fermentation and packaging to.
There is also a clue in the name Hot Side Aeration, implicit being hot, but in brewing terms more fully everything before the wort is chilled and the yeast is pitched.
Mark


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## Benn (24/6/17)

An interesting listen, Fermentation Nation #43 "Low Oxygen Brewing" _(Podcast)_
A light discussion on LoDO brewing technique that encompasses a lot of what's mentioned in the above posts.


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## Camo6 (24/6/17)

I imagine fire sprinkler systems are under considerable pressure to achieve the field of effect around the nozzles. I had a quick squiz at a box of them the fire blokes had lying about and the distance between the outlet and the deflector was significant. Not sure how they'd go with a low pressure pump drawing through a bed of grain.


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## barls (24/6/17)

from memory on a dry system aka no glass to be broken it was around 2 bar pressure. and a wet system was around 1 bar pressure.
saying that its been a long time since i worked on sprinklers.


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## philistine (26/6/17)

Camo6 said:


> I imagine fire sprinkler systems are under considerable pressure to achieve the field of effect around the nozzles. I had a quick squiz at a box of them the fire blokes had lying about and the distance between the outlet and the deflector was significant. Not sure how they'd go with a low pressure pump drawing through a bed of grain.



Yeah i was kinda thinking the low pressure would (in this situation) be advantageous.
Im imagining that the "spreader" part of the nozzle would basically just diffuse the stream and allow it to sort of dribble out sideways in a circular fashion as opposed to spraying (really struggling to describe this! )


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## pcqypcqy (27/6/17)

I believe this is what you're talking about. https://onlinebrewingsupplies.com/ss-brewtech-10-gallon-mash-tun-601

I was looking at somethign similar just yesterday. I have the blichman sparge arm. I love the float valve part of it, I hate the hose return. No matter how much liqour I put over my grain bed it always scours the top when I run it at any kind of flow rate (i.e. if I'm trying to ramp or even maintain a temperature).

I'm thinking a combination of the float valve to control the level and a better return mechanism will be pretty sweet.


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## MHB (27/6/17)

Anything that is designed to spray will have a required mass flow, if you run it at normal wort recirculation rates it will dribble like an old man with a prostate problem.
One simple solution is to lay a sheet of alfoil on the grain bed, punch some holes in it and make sure there are 10-20mm of wort/water on top of it at all times. that will stop the return gouging the malt.
There are lots of other options, creative use of a small pizza tray is one I have seen used to good effect. The perfect size is about 70% of the diameter of the mash tun, if the return is on the equal area line, the return has to travel the same distance to the centre and the edge of the tunn giving pretty even distribution.

If you mash tun was 400mm in diameter, it would have an area of A=Pi*r^2, or 3.14*200^2=125663mm^2
The equal area line would be half of that so 62831mm^2 rewrite the equation 62831=Pi*r^2
square root of 62831/Pi=r, or 141mm about 283mm in diameter (anywhere from 250-300mm would be fine).
Mark


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## n87 (27/6/17)

MHB said:


> Anything that is designed to spray will have a required mass flow, if you run it at normal wort recirculation rates it will dribble like an old man with a prostate problem.
> One simple solution is to lay a sheet of alfoil on the grain bed, punch some holes in it and make sure there are 10-20mm of wort/water on top of it at all times. that will stop the return gouging the malt.
> There are lots of other options, creative use of a small pizza tray is one I have seen used to good effect. The perfect size is about 70% of the diameter of the mash tun, if the return is on the equal area line, the return has to travel the same distance to the centre and the edge of the tunn giving pretty even distribution.
> 
> ...



I have been trying to think of a way to stop the gouging in my my bed (pause for laughter), and this might be the go, still a little thinking required... but maybe.
Thanks.


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## Camo6 (27/6/17)

Was speaking to the sprinkler guy this morning and asked what pressure the sprinkler lines were at in the high rise apartments we're working on. He reckons 1200kPa at the lower levels and tapers off to about 1000kPa as it gets higher. You might struggle to achieve that from your pump!
I use the brewtech sparge arm (the old windmill shaped one) in combination with a blichmann autosparge. Overkill but works well.


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## pcqypcqy (27/6/17)

MHB said:


> Anything that is designed to spray will have a required mass flow, if you run it at normal wort recirculation rates it will dribble like an old man with a prostate problem.
> 
> Mark



I believe that product states it's designed to work from a gravity head from the HLT. It also states a home brew scale pump should also provide the required head to achieve the sprinkler action shown in the photos.

I understand what you're saying, but here we're not chase a fine and even distribution of mist or water, just a gentle sprinkle. I can imagine that this should work under a low head application like envisaged here, but I would want to see the results before dropping $80 on a product like that.

I'm thinking about a ghetto version using an old slotted spoon. I might try your alfoil suggestion as well.


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## MHB (27/6/17)

I was referring to a fire fighting sprinkler - what the thread is about!
What you appear to want to discuss is a totally different bit of kit, if it is designed to work at low flow/pressure, then I'm sure its going to be a very beast. Point being what it was designed for, if you want to talk about a bit of Brewtech equipment it might be worth starting a new thread, that way people who have experience with it may be able make informed comment.
I haven't seen one, let alone used one, but from the picture it looks pretty good.
Mark


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## TheWiggman (27/6/17)

For what it's worth, fire systems run at very high pressure by conventional standards. Typically they're charged 1200-1800 kPa. You'll notice a lot of fire stations will have a small, vertically mounted multi stage jacking pump to keep the pressure high in a local system. By comparison, a compressed air system is in the vicinity of 700 kPa. Home mains water pressure is around 150-400 kPa.
If you intend to use a fire sprinkler head in its full capacity then - even if you found a pump that could handle it - the ensuing spray would annihilate the grain in the mash tun and blow the lid off while it ejects most of the contents. Hilarious for onlookers and HSA wouldn't be high on the list of concerns.
It'll still function under low pressure and 'fan' the liquor out but as others' comments, not an ideal wort return in my opinion. I use a simple hose to the top of the liquid level and get good efficiency.


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## pcqypcqy (27/6/17)

MHB said:


> I was referring to a fire fighting sprinkler - what the thread is about!
> What you appear to want to discuss is a totally different bit of kit, if it is designed to work at low flow/pressure, then I'm sure its going to be a very beast. Point being what it was designed for, if you want to talk about a bit of Brewtech equipment it might be worth starting a new thread, that way people who have experience with it may be able make informed comment.
> I haven't seen one, let alone used one, but from the picture it looks pretty good.
> Mark



Fair enough. I was just wanting point out that low pressure sprinkler heads can/do exist for this sort of application.


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## husky (27/6/17)

Sort of on topic but I know a few micros that use the CIP spray ball to bring in sparge water and they're not worried about HSA. I was less worried about my own system after seeing this so now I limit where possible but not anal about it.


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## klangers (28/6/17)

I use a small microwave plate cover. I simply invert this and then put the wort return hose into that. It is shaped like a bowl with slots around the bottom edge, which diffuses the wort return 360 degrees without any splashing.

EDIT: It also functions as my trub dam when whirlpooling.

If you have a covered mashtun (like micros would do if they have sprayballs inside), then the risk of HSA from splashing reduces as the headspace is essentially steam.


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## philistine (29/6/17)

Found a pretty elegant solution right under my nose.
I had the tip/end bit that i cut off a keg spear ages ago.
With a little bit of teflon, it screws in perfectly to a 1/2" coupling.
It is a little bit splashy i spose, but the pics are showing it at full brew pump pressure with clean water. A lower pressure like that youd be more likely to use in an actual sparge sitcho plus positioning closer to the grain bed might end up being pretty good....
also looks cool to boot


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## philistine (29/6/17)

a quick consultation of the google tells me that its from an a-type coupling. Might try it with a full spear and try tapping a thread onto it or in it. For no other reason that to make it all stainless and rad and give me something to do....


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## Mardoo (29/6/17)

Nice one!


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## pcqypcqy (29/6/17)

philistine said:


> Found a pretty elegant solution right under my nose.
> I had the tip/end bit that i cut off a keg spear ages ago.
> With a little bit of teflon, it screws in perfectly to a 1/2" coupling.
> It is a little bit splashy i spose, but the pics are showing it at full brew pump pressure with clean water. A lower pressure like that youd be more likely to use in an actual sparge sitcho plus positioning closer to the grain bed might end up being pretty good....
> also looks cool to boot



This is great, kudos. I have the same bits of the keg spear laying around and hadn't though of using them. I might pull them out for the next brew and see what I can rig up.


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## klangers (29/6/17)

You could make one yourself with an SS end cap and a drill.


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## fdsaasdf (29/6/17)

A ghetto option for diffusing returned wort is to drill pinholes in a length of silicon hose and either bung up the end or run both ends off a tee with barbs.


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## labels (29/6/17)

MHB said:


> Then you were under a misapprehension. Oxygen uptake and damage can start as soon as malt is milled, during storage, during mashing, boiling, in the whirlpool, during transfer and even in the stored wort if you are no-chilling...
> And there is plenty of ways Oxygen can harm beer during and after fermentation and packaging to.
> There is also a clue in the name Hot Side Aeration, implicit being hot, but in brewing terms more fully everything before the wort is chilled and the yeast is pitched.
> Mark


Couldn't agree more with what you're saying about oxygen uptake excedpt you would get fairly minimal uptake during boiling as boiling drives oxygen out. 
I think a lot of people think that oxygen kind of gets used up as it oxidises when in fact it keeps on oxidising as long as it's present. 0.008% dissolved oxygen is enough to do damage given time.


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## garage_life (15/7/17)

I was contemplating a similar idea just now. I have some brass screw in irrigation jets purchased for another project (bunnings). Was thinking they could be screwed / brazed into a piece of copper tube or a tube manifold for even coverage to prevent channelling. As for aeration, gravity feed wouldn't be an issue or adding an ebay special PWM controller to the pump or inline needle valve to regulate pressure and prevent as actual spray jet forming.
My back of the envelope design is an overkill high flow 24vdc magnetic coupled, high temp, centrifugal pump (have 2 from other projects) which is better suited for bulk transfer, not being a positive displacement pump at low speed it won't be very efficient, in this situation that'd probably be a good thing.


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## philistine (7/8/17)

So, thought id post an update.
New brewer went online on aug 4 - just like i planned, just like skynet....

Anyway, by complete fluke, first version of the wort return pipe using that keg spear nozzle thing just happens to sit PERFECTLY just a few mm below the surface of the mash.
It disperses the return liquid evenly without channeling, digging, disturbance or any splashing whatsoever.

Sometimes shit JUST WORKS


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## Tony121 (7/8/17)

Great work Philistine!

I've got my spear ready to cut up and pipe up, just need to get around to doing it.


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