# Grainfather or Braumeister



## Morrie (25/4/16)

I am an extract brewer and am considering moving to all grain. Currently I am looking at all options including BIAB, Grainfather and Braumeister. I think I will skip the BIAB option and consider the Grainfather and Braumeister. 

The Braumeister is considerably more expensive than the Grainfather and I am questioning is it worth the extra cost and if so why. I am trying to do as much research on both of these devices to decide on which to buy. 

I've read good and not so good points about both. I would appreciate the opinions and comments of owners using these appliances to explain the good and not so good points about each one.


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## SBOB (25/4/16)

there's a few youtube vids of grainfather v braumeister which might help you make a decision

I think if its a money's no object choice, the braumeister wins
if you have to weigh up 'value', i'm not sure you will get 2.5x better functionality from a braumeister


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## gTrain (25/4/16)

While having a chat with a brewer about which one they would prefer, they said the Grainfather as it is less automated & more hands-on. This meant they had more control & input into the brewing process. Just a thought.


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## Roosterboy (25/4/16)

Morrie said:


> I am an extract brewer and am considering moving to all grain. Currently I am looking at all options including BIAB, Grainfather and Braumeister. I think I will skip the BIAB option and consider the Grainfather and Braumeister.
> 
> The Braumeister is considerably more expensive than the Grainfather and I am questioning is it worth the extra cost and if so why. I am trying to do as much research on both of these devices to decide on which to buy.
> 
> I've read good and not so good points about both. I would appreciate the opinions and comments of owners using these appliances to explain the good and not so good points about each one.


Morrie , I don't have a grainfather or Braumeister , they are both variations of BIAB and my opinion is you can make a cheaper system than the braumeister.
You can make a more robust system than the grainfather and if you want bigger system than both. There are other variations on BIAB on the web and as someone
who has used several BIAB variations and I have a 3V system , I would look at those.


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## tugger (25/4/16)

Having used both I would go the brau. 
That's a quality piece of gear there. 
But that's my opinion. 
I'm a bit more of an old school Brewer(chill in the pot) drain to fermenter.


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## danestead (25/4/16)

I have a 20L braumeister. It fits my purpose however you are limited when trying to do higher gravity brews which don't use DME/Sugars etc. I assume the grainfather has the same limitation however I haven't used one so couldn't give you exact figures. I can fit 7kg of grain into my malt pipe and achieve a mash efficiency of about 75% with that quantity of grain. Off the top of my head, that will give you about 25L post boil of 1.065ish wort.

I like the fact that the braumeister is somewhat automated as I can walk away for hours at a time during the mash etc.





gTrain said:


> While having a chat with a brewer about which one they would prefer, they said the Grainfather as it is less automated & more hands-on. This meant they had more control & input into the brewing process. Just a thought.


The braumeister can be run in a fully manual mode as well as automated.


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## Cecilweetabix (25/4/16)

I went for the Grainfather (GF).The reason was the upfront cost. I believe the braumeister (BM) is a superior build quality - example ... can see that they have tooled up to create parts such as bottom mesh pieces whereas the GF is taking off the shelf mesh, cutting and using silicon seal. Normally I don't mind paying a bit more for quality, but the 2.5 jump was too much. The way I see it is I will go GF for now and could always sell in 1-2 years and upgrade once I have learned whole process, proved to myself I am still interested after so long and have worked out that the 2.5 x jump is justified. The fact that the BM has levels of automation does appeal, but again I feel I would not use that automation until I am more experienced, so no value in that feature for now. As someone mentioned earlier, if money is no object, go the BM. Just remember there is always kegs, fridges, C02 and Nitogen and all sorts of other goodies where the extra grand and half can be spent

I am 3 brews into the GF and love it.


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## MHB (25/4/16)

The BM from a great height, if you can afford it.
I have turned out 1.114 OG wort in a 50L Braumeister without adding anything (other than malt and water), like any system as gravity goes up volume comes down, cant figure why this surprises people.

I suppose its like choosing between a BMW and a Great Wall, one is German designed and built the other isn't and you get what you pay for.
What you will get from the BM other than the highest design and build quality is repeatability and consistency. If you put in the same ingredients and run the same program you will get the same wort as often as you like, you can fine tune recipes until you get them exactly the way you want. Then make them when ever you like. That was/is very important to me, not necessarily everyone else.

I will take exception to the notion that BM and GF are variations on BIAB, the BM came first, BIAB was developed by people (mostly Pat) who couldn't afford/choked at the price or just plain wanted to. Not a bad thing.
BIAB has been the biggest change in AG brewing in a very long time, It makes entry into all grain brewing inexpensive and very approachable. It has dam near killed extract brewing in Australia (not a complaint - an observation) and is now spreading around the world. Sorry NO-Chill wasn't an AHB invention either, Fresh Wort Kits have been sold in various incarnations since the 1970's.

I have seen references to comments by Fix on "Pillowcase Brewing" (not too complementary apparently) from the late 1950-1960's so BIAB could have a lot longer history than we think - if anyone can find the exact reference I would like to sight it (please).

I have never met or heard of anyone who regrets owning a Braumeister or has any complaints about their quality.
Mark


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## Benn (25/4/16)

Regarding Brau vs GF, well worth watching parts 1,2&3 
...and any of his other videos for that matter.
http://youtu.be/Nr2Qlh5YKwo


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## wobbly (25/4/16)

On the Braumeister Forum there are a number of topics about issues with the current model controller.

Here is one of them relating to condensation in the control screen. https://forum.braumeisters.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1657

Don't get me wrong I think there are an awesome piece of kit and I own a original style controller 20lt unit 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/4/16)

I have seen a BM in action.... Bit like a modern breadmaking machine

Pour ingredients in, press start, then go and do something and come back when its finished...


Kinda takes all the fun out of actually making beer in many ways


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## Morrie (25/4/16)

Thanks and appreciation to all who have replied with their opinions. Benn - I had a look at the video and was surprised in the comparison between the 2 units and that the Grainfather was more efficient in the fact that the OG after boil completion was I think 6 points higher than the Brau. I'm not sure why, maybe some tweaking in the grain crush size would be needed. The Grainfather had pump intake foul up issues due to hops which would be rectified by using hop socks or a spider.

The Brau just looking at the videos does look a more quality item to me. I spotted surface rust stain on the Grainfather and wondered if the stainless was a slightly less quality than the Brau. Maybe they are both 304 grade but in my opinion a 304 grade stainless made in Germany would be better than a 304 grade stainless made in China. I'm not saying that it necessarily follows that the Grainfather materials came out of China but it is something that I am thinking.

The jury is still out for me but I am leaning towards the Brau at this stage. I don't think it would matter which one you owned, you would be happy with either. I like the full programability of the Brau and the fact that recipes can be stored and then re-run. 

The only thing that has me miffed about the Brau is that the Grainfather came out ahead in efficiency and I'm not sure exactly why. Maybe it could be the Grainfather trickles the mash re-circulation from above and the Brau feeds it from the bottom up. Still you wouldn't think that would have an affect on the efficiency. I'd appreciate anyone's opinion on the efficiency differences and if the Brau process could be tweaked to bring it up to the Grainfathers. Maybe crush size could do this?


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## Black Devil Dog (25/4/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I have seen a BM in action.... Bit like a modern breadmaking machine
> 
> Pour ingredients in, press start, then go and do something and come back when its finished...
> 
> ...


Wouldn't be too many BM owners who reckon brewing with one isn't much fun.

And if you like being more hands on..........



danestead said:


> The braumeister can be run in a fully manual mode as well as automated.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/4/16)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Wouldn't be too many BM owners who reckon brewing with one isn't much fun.


Yes but some brewers like to be more hands on....

It's ok BDD...its just MY opinion.....I am not saying dont buy one....


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## MHB (25/4/16)

Haven't watched the video, but could easily get over 80% efficiency - into the fermenter, which is better than a lot of micros do.
Given the same crush and the same L:G ratio its nearly imposable for the first running's to be a different gravity, the only change comes when you sparge (if you sparge) full volume the answer should be the same (or at least very similar).
Mark


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## manticle (25/4/16)

I love 'hands on brewing' but the bits I like most are sitting on my deck with a beer, record on the stereo, smelling the mash. I reckon you'll get that with all/most wort production methods.

If you want real hands on, make fresh fruit based cider using a home bench top juicer. 

I won't comment on gf versus brau because I've not used either. I can't imagine you'd be disappointed with either and I reckon both would retain significant resell value if you decide to change.


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## Black Devil Dog (25/4/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Yes but some brewers like to be more hands on....


They can.


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## danestead (25/4/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I have seen a BM in action.... Bit like a modern breadmaking machine
> 
> Pour ingredients in, press start, then go and do something and come back when its finished...
> 
> ...


Ahhh operating in a manual mode compared to 'automatic' only involves pressing a button to turn the pump on and off or pressing 2 other buttons to turn the temp up and down. I'm not sure what you classify as fun but pressing buttons doesn't really get my juices flowing.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/4/16)

danestead said:


> Ahhh operating in a manual mode compared to 'automatic' only involves pressing a button to turn the pump on and off or pressing 2 other buttons to turn the temp up and down. I'm not sure what you classify as fun but pressing buttons doesn't really get my juices flowing.


Me either


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## Morrie (25/4/16)

Has anyone had any screen condensation issues with a current model Brau controller in Australia? I checked out the Brau forum which seems to be UK based and there is a truck load of owners of the current model with condensation screen issues and Brau haven't been all that co-operative in warranty rectification? Just wondering how any Aussie owners are faring with warranty with Braumeister?


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## bradsbrew (25/4/16)

I have gone back to 3V HERMS after using a GF for 18 months. Nothing wrong with the GF/ Brau systems, it just did not suit me, mainly volume. You really can't beat the flexibility of having 3 separate vessels.


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## wobbly (25/4/16)

Morrie said:


> I checked out the Brau forum which seems to be UK based


The Braumeister Forum was started by a brewer called "Neils" and is based in Belguim

As well as screen condensation issues the "wifi" feature hasn't been a cake walk either from what I have read on the Braumeister Forum. Many of the members have elected not to take up the option to "upgrade" there original model control unit due to the various perceived issues

There hasn't been the same level of disappointment/problems detailed on the AHB various Braumeister topics so maybe the issue (s) are specific to Europe 

It appears to be pretty poor management of the new release by Spiedel 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Morrie (25/4/16)

Wobbly - thanks for your information mate. I think the next step would be to email a few Australian distributors of Brau and ask them have there been any of those issues and what is the warranty procedure in the event of a condensating screen etc.


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## manticle (25/4/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Me either


You love pushing buttons.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/4/16)

pfffft


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## Coldspace (25/4/16)

Hey 50 ltr braumeister owners,

I been double batching ok with upto 9 kg in my grain father, but due to work commitments can only find time to brew once a month, sometimes more , most of the time less ,and so I tend to run out of beer sometimes despite having 8 keg keezer. I do like to try and leave my kegs a few weeks to mellow out as well. I need to up production, especially with thirsty family/mates hanging around.Was thinking of buying a grain bro, but these don't come with another malt pipe, so not worth it to save only 1.5 hrs or so.

Other option is to sell it to a mate, got one interested if I sell, and go all out and get 50 ltr Braumeister. What's the max load of grain into one of these bad boys?

I read grain and grape get upto 900 ltrs of wort out of the 500 ltr braumeister, can this sort of thingthey do be done with the 50 ltr version? 

Is it just double batch Over gravity for style like I do with the grain father then dilute back to 1045 or thereabouts or do the do something diff to get more out of the braumeister?


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## Blind Dog (25/4/16)

Do a google search for 'grain and grape double mash'. Fairly easy to get 35L post boil from a 20L brau, or reduce the sparge water to increase gravity, just takes a little longer. For example, I've used it to brew 35L of a 4.5% ABV special bitter and 20L of a 9.5% old ale, amongst others, without any sugars or dme/lme. You could probably push the ABV higher in both cases, I just didn't want to. My understanding is that the 50L brau has a total capacity of around 100L, so a 80L batch or more, should be possible.

To the OP, if the price is OK for you, I'd recommend the brau every time. I love brewing on mine and it fits well into a busy family life. I have far too many calls on my time to brew any other way. Once you have a recipe mastered, the ability to brew it exactly the same time after time, is just brilliant.


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## Cervantes (26/4/16)

Coldspace said:


> Hey 50 ltr braumeister owners,
> 
> I been double batching ok with upto 9 kg in my grain father, but due to work commitments can only find time to brew once a month, sometimes more , most of the time less ,and so I tend to run out of beer sometimes despite having 8 keg keezer. I do like to try and leave my kegs a few weeks to mellow out as well. I need to up production, especially with thirsty family/mates hanging around.Was thinking of buying a grain bro, but these don't come with another malt pipe, so not worth it to save only 1.5 hrs or so.
> 
> ...


You may find this of interest...........


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## Morrie (26/4/16)

Blind Dog and other Brau owners - do you use the Brau immersion chiller or another type of chiller? I think the immersion chiller is an optional extra but I can't find anywhere they are listed for sale.


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## razz (26/4/16)

Hey Morrie. I use a home wound copper immersion chiller, works a treat. I have also used a plate chiller.


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## Morrie (26/4/16)

G'day Razz - I can easily make an immersion chiller out of 1/2 inch copper tube, I've got shed loads of it. I was concerned about using copper in a wort as I read somewhere that copper was not one of the preferred metals to have in beer. I think a wort PH would be 4 or 5 and am thinking that when the chiller is pulled out that it would be shiny and if so then this means that copper oxides would be going into the wort. Am I right or wrong with this assumption?

I was thinking of looking around for some 1/2 inch stainless tube.


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## Goose (26/4/16)

bradsbrew said:


> I have gone back to 3V HERMS after using a GF for 18 months. Nothing wrong with the GF/ Brau systems, it just did not suit me, mainly volume. You really can't beat the flexibility of having 3 separate vessels.


I've recently acquired a 50l BM and run 5 brews on it so far. I retained my 3V RIMS for now and I have to say it ain't no slam dunk on choice which one is best because there are pros and cons of each.

My biggest gripe on the BM vs 3V so far is efficiency, for the same crush I am getting 5 to 7% better mash efficiency on the 3V RIMS vs BM, and I think this is because of the superior sparging process on the 3V. However before I am flamed by the multitude of happy BM owners out there, I am still experimenting on the BM...


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## wide eyed and legless (26/4/16)

I wonder what brew kettles were manufactured from before stainless steel was invented?


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## danestead (26/4/16)

Goose said:


> My biggest gripe on the BM vs 3V so far is efficiency, for the same crush I am getting 5 to 7% better mash efficiency on the 3V RIMS vs BM, and I think this is because of the superior sparging process on the 3V. However before I am flamed by the multitude of happy BM owners out there, I am still experimenting on the BM...


I would have to agree with your comment on the reason for the lower efficiency. I usually get 80-82% mash efficiency on my 20L Braumeister with a 5kg malt bill and 25L post boil volume. Sparge water is usually about 3.5L for a 60 minute boil. I once did a 30L batch which used about 10L of sparge water. My mash efficiency was 86%. I put this entirely down to the sparge volume, rather that a sparge efficiency I guess you'd call it. I tested my final sparge runnings on a brew the other day. The OG of the brew was 1.055. The final sparge gravity after about a 5L sparge was 1.030. Plenty of potential left in there.


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## Goose (26/4/16)

danestead said:


> I would have to agree with your comment on the reason for the lower efficiency. I usually get 80-82% mash efficiency on my 20L Braumeister with a 5kg malt bill and 25L post boil volume. Sparge water is usually about 3.5L for a 60 minute boil. I once did a 30L batch which used about 10L of sparge water. My mash efficiency was 86%. I put this entirely down to the sparge volume, rather that a sparge efficiency I guess you'd call it. I tested my final sparge runnings on a brew the other day. The OG of the brew was 1.055. The final sparge gravity after about a 5L sparge was 1.030. Plenty of potential left in there.


Most seem to suggest that a "no sparge" method yields the same efficiency as sparging on the BM as you described above. While not trying the volume of sparge you have above, the spent grain is still too damn sweet for my liking for the runs I have done to date. By comparison on my 3v, I cannot taste any residual sweetness in the spent grain. 

The other (little) issue I have is that as soon as I pull out the malt pipe, all the effort that that in situ RIMS has done in wort clarification, becomes undone. The wort I boil is cloudy whereas on the 3v, it is clear. I am not suggesting it affects the quality of the finished product (flamesuit on), as in fact it might be true that some lipids in the wort may be beneficial to the fermentation process.

In any case, I digress off topic, apologies to OP.


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## Thefatdoghead (26/4/16)

Morrie said:


> Blind Dog and other Brau owners - do you use the Brau immersion chiller or another type of chiller? I think the immersion chiller is an optional extra but I can't find anywhere they are listed for sale.


I use the stainless immersion chiller from National homebrew. Takes about half an hour to chill 100 litres of wort. Dont have to stuff around cleaning the 30 plate chiller which is great. 
Ive only used it twice though so still holding onto the plate chiller. 

I consistently get 82% efficiency out of the brau and even when using it with the 114 litre ss kettle it still got over 80%.

If you want my opinion, buy the 50L brau. I hve the original model so cant comment if the new model has issues or not but ive never had a hiccup. Well besides a broken impellor blade after 4 years or so. 

It also has the ability to to do this

https://youtu.be/3K_B1RB9d4I


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## razz (26/4/16)

Morrie said:


> G'day Razz - I can easily make an immersion chiller out of 1/2 inch copper tube, I've got shed loads of it. I was concerned about using copper in a wort as I read somewhere that copper was not one of the preferred metals to have in beer. I think a wort PH would be 4 or 5 and am thinking that when the chiller is pulled out that it would be shiny and if so then this means that copper oxides would be going into the wort. Am I right or wrong with this assumption?
> 
> I was thinking of looking around for some 1/2 inch stainless tube.


I've been using it long before I got the BM Morrie, I did read sometime back about copper in beer being toxic but the amounts required I'm not sure of. Lots of good beer being made with copper in the process mate. As far as it coming out shinny goes, that doesn't mean that copper is going into the boil, just what is on the outside of the chiller. Manticle or MHB can give you more accurate technical,information than I can.


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## MHB (27/4/16)

No problem with copper before knockout in fact some might be beneficial as Cu ions catalyse protein coagulation, which is one of the aims of wort boiling.
Once the wort is out of the kettle it's not desirable as it can speed up haze formation and some other aging faults, through the same catalytic process, Too much is also toxic to yeast and it can give a metallic taste.

If you are worried wash your immersion chiller in some hot water with a cup of white vinegar in it, a process called "pinking" which strips off the oxide layer. this massively reduces the amount of copper that ends up in the wort.

Mark


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## Morrie (28/4/16)

Thanks fellas, a lot of useful information here. Actually copper is a much better conductor of heat than stainless which will give a faster transfer of heat out of the wort.


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## Dave70 (28/4/16)

Morrie said:


> Thanks fellas, a lot of useful information here. Actually copper is a much better conductor of heat than stainless which will give a faster transfer of heat out of the wort.


The is a mighty discussion about that somewhere here with some interesting points. Some seemed to argue a device aimed at cooling wort is more a heat echanger - absorbing heat into the coils and carrying it out with via water, and others a chiller - like putting ice cubes in a drink. Copper being the pick for the former, stainless for the latter. One of the great AHB 'it depends' threads.


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## tavas (28/4/16)

Copper is a better heat conductor but with the thin wall in the tubing used for cooling coils, it has a negligible difference to stainless steel. There is more effect in getting the heat to the coil wall (i.e. stirring the wort).


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