# Infected Cider?



## machalel (13/3/12)

Am I correct in assuming that this cider is now infected?

Annoying (and weird) that fermentation was complete, and it has been in the secondary for a week and a half without showing any signs, and I leave for the weekend and return to this!


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## InCider (13/3/12)

What does it taste like? Seems nasty, and it's well infected, but you never know...lambic cider?


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## machalel (13/3/12)

Doesn't really smell much different... Maybe a bit more sour?


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## machalel (13/3/12)

Hmmm... Is it normal for it to not show signs of infection until almost 2 weeks later?

I'm not sure how it got in, I soaked everything in iodine sanitiser (can't remember the exact name) for the recommended time (~20 mins). I filled a couple of bottles at the same time, and they aren't showing any signs...


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## Greg.L (13/3/12)

Looks like a film yeast. Any cider in secondary can develop film yeast if too much air gets in. That will never happen if it is well topped up and sealed. You may be able to rescue it with skimming followed by camden and topping up. What sort of seal do you use?

Greg


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## machalel (13/3/12)

Seal on the secondary was just glad-wrap with a rubber band.

Did a bit of a smell/taste test this evening - Smell is more apple-y and sweeter, taste is not too bad - actually less tart than before. Definitely doesnt have any vinegar taste to it.

I racked it again to a new container, making sure to sanitise the hell out of everything and making sure I didnt get any of the 'skin' in the new one. I also added some extra sugar (to make some CO2) and topped it off with some water so there is almost no air left.


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## Greg.L (13/3/12)

Glad wrap and a rubber band!

I have heard of people doing that for beer but it won't work for cider. Your pictures are the inevitable result. You need a good solid seal for cider, preferably a rubber O-ring and screw-on plastic lid. What happened had nothing to do with sanitation, just inadequate equipment. The best way to do secondary is glass carboy filled to the top.


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## Fat Bastard (13/3/12)

Greg.L said:


> Glad wrap and a rubber band!
> 
> I have heard of people doing that for beer but it won't work for cider. Your pictures are the inevitable result. You need a good solid seal for cider, preferably a rubber O-ring and screw-on plastic lid. What happened had nothing to do with sanitation, just inadequate equipment. The best way to do secondary is glass carboy filled to the top.



Why won't it work for cider? Forgive my ignorance, but if it prevents bugs and feral yeast getting at your beer, surely it'd prevent it getting into the cider?


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## InCider (13/3/12)

Keg it and drink it before it goes off - you never know. I had one brett infection and it was key to me developing a taste for sour beers :icon_cheers:


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## Greg.L (14/3/12)

Fat Bastard said:


> Why won't it work for cider? Forgive my ignorance, but if it prevents bugs and feral yeast getting at your beer, surely it'd prevent it getting into the cider?



First off we're talking secondary here, storage not primary fermentation.
The main enemy of cider is oxygen, not bugs and feral yeast. Glad wrap and a rubber band will let so much air in that I am not surprised it went off in 2 weeks. Also, glad wrap and rubber band WILL let bugs into your cider, the seal is so poor. It only works when there is a positive pressure of co2 due to a vigorous fermentation, when you don't need a seal anyway. The main benefit of the glad wrap is to stop stuff falling into the fermenter.

Greg


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## machalel (14/3/12)

hmmm ok then, i'll keep that in mind! I've put a proper lid on it now.


Also got some more pictures from a proper camera this time


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## Fat Bastard (14/3/12)

Greg.L said:


> First off we're talking secondary here, storage not primary fermentation.
> The main enemy of cider is oxygen, not bugs and feral yeast. Glad wrap and a rubber band will let so much air in that I am not surprised it went off in 2 weeks. Also, glad wrap and rubber band WILL let bugs into your cider, the seal is so poor. It only works when there is a positive pressure of co2 due to a vigorous fermentation, when you don't need a seal anyway. The main benefit of the glad wrap is to stop stuff falling into the fermenter.
> 
> Greg



I see. Wouldn't there be more risk from removing the glad wrap and running the risk of introducing oxygen, given that co2 is heavier than air and should be sitting in a blanket over the cider? If you don't remove enough cider to drop the pressure inside the fermenter to below atmospheric, oxygen shouldn't be a problem. I'm assuming that the pressure inside the fermenter will not drop below atmospheric + whatever the minimum pressure is needed for the co2 to escape the gladwrap and rubber band.

I'm not trying to be a smart arse here, I'm now having a panic over my cider which has been 2 weeks in the fermenter under glad wrap!

Cheers, 

FB


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## manticle (14/3/12)

I've fermented several ciders using glad wrap with no issues.

The last one I did though, I left for a while at ambient once FG was reached (autumn/winter melbourne ambient) and got a skin infection - not as atrocious looking as the one pictured but obvious and distinct.

I have had a similar looking infection/skin on beer left in the same way. Most of my beverages are in cubes with the lid tightened once FG is reached but I ocassionally use glad wrap for bigger batches.

Anyway, I bottled the cider with basically no headspace in each bottle (a precaution). Have drunk it all and given some away and had good feeback on all bottles but I would say when active ferment has wound down, all beverages of my experience may need to be transferred to airtight cube or at least watched for a bit.

No flavour contribution from the skin after 3 months but definitely something to watch out for.

I think greg is right in that glad, or headspace or even possibly airlock and lid with headspace are all good during active but reducing possible oxygen intake is preferable afterwards. Exactly how much oxygen ingress will occurr is anyone's guess and most beverages may not show signs of anything within normal drinking time.

It's just one of those risks you need to add in to which ones you are willing to take.

The above is based mostly on my experience and some theorising about said experience so please understand I am not examining my cider with High performance liquid chromatography, Gas chromatography, spectroscopy or analcolonoscopy.


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## pk.sax (14/3/12)

Only time I got a skin like that start to appear was with a saison. And only because it took so friggin long. Gladwrap o course.


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