# Milk, Absolute Bloody Scandal



## Bribie G (25/6/12)

Supermarket milk contains around 15% of "permeate", a green slimy waste product of cheese which is bleached and deodorised to make it look like milk.
This is perfectly legal and it never seems to get discussed. 

linky


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## benno1973 (25/6/12)

Not that I agree that milk should be tampered with in any way, but...

what is permeate? It's described a the collection of milk sugars (lactose), vitamins and minerals that are left over from cheese production. If this is added back to milk, we're not only dealing with edible waste products in a responsible way (eating rather than dumping them) but we're adding back vitamins and minerals to milk that are often reduced during the pasteurisation process? 

The bleaching and deodorising doesn't sound good, but the fact that it's called permeate and sounds like a checmical additive gives Today Tonight the sensational edge that milk companies are screwing us over. 

Again, I'd love to buy unpasteurised unhomogenised milk if possible. But I make cheese and I see the amount of waste in the process. In some sense, it's great that we're reusing that waste, even if it does save the big companies money...

Actually, this is a pretty good article...
http://foodwatch.com.au/hot-issues-in-the-...k-permeate.html


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## tricache (25/6/12)

Old news but yeah still freaking disgusting
Link


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## peas_and_corn (25/6/12)

You're paying $1/L for this stuff, what are you expecting? It's like people saying 'OMG I can't believe the garbage of the animal goes into my spam'


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## Jay Cee (25/6/12)

peas_and_corn said:


> You're paying $1/L for this stuff, what are you expecting? It's like people saying 'OMG I can't believe the garbage of the animal goes into my spam'




I pay $1/L for boutique beer, and there's no slimy crap in that.


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## Florian (25/6/12)

Jay Cee said:


> I pay $1/L for boutique beer, and there's no slimy crap in that.



you must not bottle condition then or else you'd have slimy yeast crap in there.

EDIT: grammar


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## Wolfy (25/6/12)

I agree with Paul the farmer:
_You know, its really a labelling issue. The consumer has every right to know what they're purchasing."_
Other than that and that I'd be happier if they kept the lactose out, don't see why it matters, sure it might be a byproduct of cheese making, but that does not mean it's bad for you or a 'waste' product you shouldn't eat.

I eat Vegemite and we all know what beverage manufacturing process that is a 'waste' product from.


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## tricache (25/6/12)

Wolfy said:


> I agree with Paul the farmer:
> _You know, its really a labelling issue. The consumer has every right to know what they're purchasing."_
> Other than that and that I'd be happier if they kept the lactose out, don't see why it matters, sure it might be a byproduct of cheese making, but that does not mean it's bad for you or a 'waste' product you shouldn't eat.
> 
> I eat Vegemite and we all know what beverage manufacturing process that is a 'waste' product from.



I totally didn't know that about Vegemite!!!



> Vegemite is made from used brewers' yeast extract, a by-product of beer manufacturing



No wonder I like it so much haha


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## Malted (25/6/12)

Bribie G said:


> Supermarket milk contains around 15% of "permeate", a green slimy waste product of cheese which is bleached and deodorised to make it look like milk.
> This is perfectly legal and it never seems to get discussed.
> linky



Sensationalism. It is stuff taken from milk and then added to milk? What is wrong with that? 
You could say whey is Permeate. It used to be quite common for pigs to be fed whey. 

What is probably worse for you is light milk. Why drink something that has the goodness taken out of it! It is essentially 100% Permeate isn't it? (If we broaden the scope of the term). 

Depends on who you believe: "Permeate is a collective term for the lactose, water, vitamins and minerals components of milk produced by a separation process called ultra filtration. It is not a by-product of cheese." " In cheese-making, the standardisation process happens before the cheese is made not after the cheese-making process." Dairy Australia http://www.dairyaustralia.com.au/Dairy-foo...facts-FAQs.aspx 

No more milk stout for you Bribie G, your lactose probably came from permeate.


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## Bribie G (25/6/12)

The whole point is that the average joe in the street doesn't know about this. For example if I bought "Fresh Beef Mince" from Woolies and had it analysed and found that it actually contained 20% ground up unsold smallgoods from the deli bar that they would otherwise have to toss out, I'm sure the local fair trading would have a thing or two to say.

Now mince with ground up smallgoods might be quite palatable and even desirable in some recipes - could make a cracking spag bog sauce - but they should declare it onthe label, and to do it secretly is unethical IMHO.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/6/12)

Bribie G said:


> The whole point is that the average joe in the street doesn't know about this. For example if I bought "Fresh Beef Mince" from Woolies and had it analysed and found that it actually contained 20% ground up unsold smallgoods from the deli bar that they would otherwise have to toss out, I'm sure the local fair trading would have a thing or two to say.
> 
> Now mince with ground up smallgoods might be quite palatable and even desirable in some recipes - could make a cracking spag bog sauce - but they should declare it onthe label, and to do it secretly is unethical IMHO.



You are ******* kidding.......

Bribie.... sorry, but you are full of shit on this one


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## Wolfy (25/6/12)

I reckon someone should add some lacto to this "permeate" stuff, and sell it in small bottles as a health drink, you'd not even need to bleach it or make it look like milk since everyone expects health food to look and taste weird anyway.


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## DUANNE (25/6/12)

if the average person doesnt know about it by now they must have theyre eyes shut and ears blocked. its been featured on the 630 shows at least twice in the past 12 months that i know of and talked about endlessly on am radio stations for days after each time. i look at it like eating a dim sim or meat pie, if i thought about what garbage goes in the things labeled as meat i would never go near them but i just push it out of my mind and enjoy the shit out of them.


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## bum (25/6/12)

Malted said:


> Sensationalism.


Mother's milk for some...


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## Bribie G (25/6/12)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You are ******* kidding.......
> 
> Bribie.... sorry, but you are full of shit on this one



Please explain glasshopper  

Point is when you buy milk you _assume _you are getting the stuff out of the tit, not milk that has been blended with by product. If you are not getting _pure _milk then this should be on the label.


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## manticle (25/6/12)

Milk: May contain stuff we took out of milk then blended back in.

I agree that clear labelling for all foodstuffs would be good but even the sources of this 'disgraceful scandal' (aca, Herald etc) are enough to make me sniff media beat up more than Dairy industry scam.

I prefer biodynamic and organic milks anyway. If I could suck it straight from the teat I would but people might think it was strange if she wasn't my cow.


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## stuchambers (25/6/12)

If i can use Bribie's example but make a small correction, adding permeate to milk likens itself more to making mince meat out of a lean cut of meat but then adding some extra fat to the mix.
It is also a really cool colour a fluro yellow with a hint of green it looks like it would glow in the dark.
Cheers Stu


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## Bribie G (25/6/12)

I wondered why my Aldi milk glows in the dark , thanks for that


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## Wolfy (25/6/12)

BEERHOG said:


> if the average person doesnt know about it by now they must have theyre eyes shut and ears blocked. its been featured on the 630 shows at least twice in the past 12 months that i know of and talked about endlessly on am radio stations for days after each time.


Don't assume that everyone watches commercial television, let alone shit shows on commercial TV.
Or listens to radio, especially shit radio stations that talk about bullshit like this.

I had not head of this "_Absolute Bloody Scandal_" before, because the only time I watch commercial TV is when live-sport is on, everything else is download advertisement free, so that I can enjoy the 10-15mins of advertisement time each hour doing other things, like reading these forums and learning about such scandals. 
The only radio I listen to is in the car, and then it's usually JJJ but more often than not it's MP3's there anyway.


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## Dunkelbrau (26/6/12)

I agree with clear labelling, however I don't see a problem if it is what gets taken out at one stage only to be added back in.
Couldnt you label it "milk, permeate (derived from milk)."?
Clear labelling is an absolute must, ingredients as well as country of origin!J


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## mikec (26/6/12)

Since Coles & Woollies decided that milk had to be a $1 a litre, the dairy producers have had to find ways to make it cheap.
You can still buy proper milk, you just have to pay more for it.


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## tricache (26/6/12)

mikec said:


> Since Coles & Woollies decided that milk had to be a $1 a litre, the dairy producers have had to find ways to make it cheap.
> You can still buy proper milk, you just have to pay more for it.



Exactly right...if you want milk straight from the cow, no bullsh*t (excuse the pun), you can get it.

I have a friend who even gets his milk unpasteurised, slightly illegal but he is a health freak and full on vego


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## Greg.L (26/6/12)

There was a controversy in the USA recently about pink slime, or recovered meat. This is the crap meat boiled to remove fat and treated with ammonium, then added to patty mince for burgers. They have to add heaps of salt to make it palatable. Once the name became public they had to stop selling it.


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## drsmurto (26/6/12)

Local Adelaideans should keep their eyes open for Tweedvale Milk, from the Adelaide hills.

Unhomogenised, permeate free.

It costs a lot more than $1/L but it is worth it. Let the full cream milk sit in the fridge overnight and there is a big lump of cream on the top. Makes the creamiest lattes!

No affiliation other than i live nearby. They also make a gorgeous double cream. I use it instead of icing on cakes. :icon_drool2: 

The permeate in milk is no scandal, or at least it shouldn't be if you actually spend a minute or 2 thinking about what you are buying/consuming. 

Reconsitituing a food product is very common, the majority of orange juice is (a portion is boiled and then added back to ensure no seasonal variation in the cheap products, this concentrate is normally imported). Have a think about the fact you are buying something that is 'fresh' and yet lasts 2-3 times longer now than it did 10-20 years ago. Mother nature hasn't done this, we have.

Home brand anything from the big 2 is bad for everyone other than their shareholders.


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## Fatgodzilla (26/6/12)

The beauty of free choice. I live in dairy country - do the names Bodalla & Bega sound familiar? Real towns in my neck of the woods. I have clients and friends who are or were dairy farmers and at "war" with Coles & Woolies over unfair pricing. So I refuse to buy the $1 stuff. And actually, I don't like the cheap stuff - it doesn't taste the same as the other "real" product. Now I think I know why. So I'm happy to pay extra to drink (say) Dairy Farmers milk. The same as I'm prepared to pay extra to drink craft beers. Freedom of choice.


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## Malted (26/6/12)

*Milk - 116.43% Milk.

*Content caveat: Not having a go at anyone _per se_, just having fun with the topic. No offence itended, shit stirring only. 



Kaiser Soze said:


> what is permeate? It's described a the collection of milk sugars (lactose), vitamins and minerals that are left over from cheese production. If this is added back to milk, we're not only dealing with edible waste products in a responsible way (eating rather than dumping them) but we're adding back vitamins and minerals to milk that are often reduced during the pasteurisation process?


Responsible use of our resources! Surely not! Bribie says we can't consume by products and you're telling us using by products is a responsible use of our resources? Faaark I am confused! 
Maybe I have it wrong, maybe he says it's not that we can't use them but we should be told what they are used for? Should we be a super-nanny state? Should we have FULL product disclosure? See average Joe discussion below.



Wolfy said:


> I reckon someone should add some lacto to this "permeate" stuff, and sell it in small bottles as a health drink, you'd not even need to bleach it or make it look like milk since everyone expects health food to look and taste weird anyway.


Good good man that is *scandalous*. Don't buy it!!! It is a by product of cheese! How is that healthy!!!



bum said:


> Mother's milk for some...


 So few words and yet such a poignant message. It says a lot with few words; conversely, I generally say little with many words. You probably haven't read this because the post is too long, so here is some extra random content: elephant g-string, leprechaun diarrhoea, sunburnt tadpole. Enjoy.



Jurt said:


> I agree with clear labelling, however I don't see a problem if it is what gets taken out at one stage only to be added back in.
> Couldnt you label it "milk, permeate (derived from milk)."?
> Clear labelling is an absolute must, ingredients as well as country of origin!J


Certainly. Why don't we label it as 'Milk - may contain milk products' or 'Milk - may contain milk concentrates' or how about 'Milk - Made from Milk'* or *'Milk - 116.43% Milk'***

* My Favourite!
** This might be my new favourite! In fact I am pretty sure it is.



Bribie G said:


> The whole point is that the average joe in the street doesn't know about this.


How much does Joe need to know? The government regulators (Read here if you want to know more LINK) do a fine job of ensuring our food safety, let's leave them to it.

- Would Joe like to know that an anit caking agent used in his table salt is Sodium Ferro*cyanide* (  ) but it is not called that, it is just called additive 535? That's cyanide in my salt isn't it? Scandalous! 

- Would Joe eat bread if he knew that flour anti caking agents E910, E920, E921 can be made from chicken and duck feathers (or some claim from the hair of third world country women). 

- Would Joe like to know that E925 (Chlorine) or E926 (Cholrine dioxide) are used as bleaching agents and improvers in cakes and breads?

- Would Joe eat cheese if he knew that the major source of natural rennet used in cheese making is extracted from the inner mucosa of the fourth stomach chamber of slaughtered young, unweaned calves? The stomachs are a by product of veal production. We can't eat by products!

Would Joe like to know what veal is? Think about baby cows when you're eating Veal Scallopini? Oh hang on I digress to animal ethics instead of food ethics, ah heck I'll touch on that can of worms too.

*Summary #1: Breakfast is bothered.
*Don't drink milk because it is a by product of cheese making, but don't eat cheese because it is a by product of veal production, don't eat veal because they were cutesy wootsey baby cows but stay away from Mum too, she might be mad because she ate dead chickens. Don't eat eggs because that is an unborn baby chicken and their mothers were probably abused and made to eat other dead chickens. Don't eat the bacon that you would have had with your eggs because the pigs are abused too and sometimes they are given whey which might have come from mad cows. Don't eat the toast you were going to have with your bacon and eggs because there could be abused chicken feathers in the flour in the bread. Don't use the salt that would have gone on your eggs because that has cyanide in it. 

*Summary #2: Smoko is bothered too:
*Tea with milk and scones? Iced coffee? 

*Summary #3: Lunch is bothered too:
*Milkshake, burger, salad roll or sandwhich? 

*Summary #4: Getting bored now?... Media sensationalism is bothered*


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## MaltyHops (26/6/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Local Adelaideans should keep their eyes open for Tweedvale Milk, from the Adelaide hills.
> ...


Any idea how green (as in organic) they are? Have been buying either
their milk or the Fleurieu one (only seem to be available from Foodland
IGAs) depending on what's available - or the Paris Creek milk.


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## raven19 (26/6/12)

Malted said:


> *Summary #1: Breakfast is f$%ked.
> *



Can I breathe the air at work safely?  :blink: 

Fair typing effort there mate.


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## bum (26/6/12)

Malted said:


> Should we be a super-nanny state? Should we have FULL product disclosure?


Ha! I like it.


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## jakethedog (26/6/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Local Adelaideans should keep their eyes open for Tweedvale Milk, from the Adelaide hills.
> 
> Unhomogenised, permeate free.
> 
> It costs a lot more than $1/L but it is worth it. Let the full cream milk sit in the fridge overnight and there is a big lump of cream on the top. Makes the creamiest lattes!



I agree. Can't buy it from Coles or Woolies though. Another reason to stay away from the big bad two.


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## Dave70 (26/6/12)

I_ love_ irony.

Like ethanol guzzling pissheads getting precious about a standardising product added to their moo juice.


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## jlm (26/6/12)

Why the surprise when industrialised farming to feed our desire for dirt cheap product involves industrial processes? Shit, have a look through any large catering supply company's inventory and there's all sorts of outlandish stuff. I really like Pork! Now with 95% real pork! because you can't cook it properly. If you want it fresh from the teat/paddock/tree you gots to pay. Unless you want to pay those providing those goods to receive the same as overseas labourers who provide the rest of our shit.


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## husky (26/6/12)

I wouldn't really call it a by product. Cheese manufacturers often choose to run a uf plant to pull out permeate(a mix of lactose minerals etc) to allow a greater throughput of cheese. It increases the amount of milk solids they can get into the cheese making process. They dont have to produce the permeate. For example on a low production day when not running at capacity there is no need to, and the 'permeate' goes through the process and eventually ends up in the product.
Permeate can be dumped(this is what used to happen) until a use for it was found. It is useful to standardise milk to maintain a consistant product and deal with seasonal fluctuations in milk off the cow.
Funny people are up in arms that it is added to drinking milk. Its not the only dairy product it is added to for standardisation purposes. 
Note that at this point what we are calling milk(without permeate) has already been processed(fat standardised, homogenised pasteurised etc) is that then not milk since it has pad portions removed or added to standardise?.
I agree it would be good if it was labeled however it is still 100% milk. If youre worried there are manufacturers of milk that is not blended. Or buy a cow, fresh creamy milk all be it a bit warm. Un homogenised which allows the cream to rise to the top... yummmm....


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## spog (27/6/12)

my brother wont eat sausages,he claims they are made from bulls balls and cows #$^*s :lol: ...cheers......spog.....quote name='Bribie G' date='Jun 25 2012, 05:27 PM' post='928013']
The whole point is that the average joe in the street doesn't know about this. For example if I bought "Fresh Beef Mince" from Woolies and had it analysed and found that it actually contained 20% ground up unsold smallgoods from the deli bar that they would otherwise have to toss out, I'm sure the local fair trading would have a thing or two to say.

Now mince with ground up smallgoods might be quite palatable and even desirable in some recipes - could make a cracking spag bog sauce - but they should declare it onthe label, and to do it secretly is unethical IMHO.
[/quote]


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## pk.sax (27/6/12)

For more than 9 years, I still don't get it why it is not law here to list the proper names of ingredients on packaging. Processers are allowed to paraphrase country of origin information, hide chemicals used to process behind generic names...

I remember when the most popular brand of sunflower oil sold in India was caught to have been adulterating it by adding stuff to it, the company collapsed. Their entire product, which was their thing in the market, disappeared completely. That is the power of transparency, the government and 'agencies' don't always know best. No organisation is immune from political and commercial pressure.

Read an article up here 2 days ago that dairy farmers (the cooperative) will stop adding permeate to their milk. I'm pretty sure that mungali creek (bio dynamic) dairy doesn't either. More expensive to buy but their plain yoghurt is so tasty you wouldn't want to go back, crust of yellow buttery creamy goodness on top of each pot of yoghurt. mmmmmm


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## bum (27/6/12)

We don't really have the TV on much in our house.

I was at my grandparents' place today and their telly is _always_ on. I happened to look at it while there was a milk ad on. "PERMEATE FREE!!!" it screamed.

I am not at all surprised this thread exists.


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## manticle (27/6/12)

Cow's Milk has really permeated our society.


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## bum (27/6/12)

That pun was udderly awful.


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## manticle (27/6/12)

Don't get all moody on me.


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## bum (27/6/12)

You're really starting to get on my teats.

Am I on my Pat Malone?


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## manticle (27/6/12)

Pogue mahone


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## bum (27/6/12)

Careful, manticle. If you mess with the bull, you get the horns.


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## manticle (27/6/12)

I get the horn quite often as a matter of fact.

Quite used to that.


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## bum (27/6/12)

Look at you...it is rare to see you working blue.


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## jlm (28/6/12)

On your feet everyone, you've just witnessed the cream of bovine pun-ery.


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## jimmy86 (28/6/12)

"Bad cow pun"

From Cows with guns, I think by Dennis Leary lol


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## super_simian (28/6/12)

Dana Lyons actually...


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## spog (28/6/12)

i agree,tell everyone what IS in your product,tell the truth,then we all know what we are buying and if you /the producer/retailer are honest then your brand/product will be a "hot item" and make $ ....cheers.........spog.......quote name='practicalfool' date='Jun 27 2012, 09:52 PM' post='928940']
For more than 9 years, I still don't get it why it is not law here to list the proper names of ingredients on packaging. Processers are allowed to paraphrase country of origin information, hide chemicals used to process behind generic names...

I remember when the most popular brand of sunflower oil sold in India was caught to have been adulterating it by adding stuff to it, the company collapsed. Their entire product, which was their thing in the market, disappeared completely. That is the power of transparency, the government and 'agencies' don't always know best. No organisation is immune from political and commercial pressure.

Read an article up here 2 days ago that dairy farmers (the cooperative) will stop adding permeate to their milk. I'm pretty sure that mungali creek (bio dynamic) dairy doesn't either. More expensive to buy but their plain yoghurt is so tasty you wouldn't want to go back, crust of yellow buttery creamy goodness on top of each pot of yoghurt. mmmmmm
[/quote]


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## spog (28/6/12)

just reread my post from last night,came across as an piss take at you Bribie G.
not what i was getting at/nor intending.....cheers...spog......(no doubt i will screw up in the future...again)


spog said:


> my brother wont eat sausages,he claims they are made from bulls balls and cows #$^*s :lol: ...cheers......spog.....quote name='Bribie G' date='Jun 25 2012, 05:27 PM' post='928013']
> The whole point is that the average joe in the street doesn't know about this. For example if I bought "Fresh Beef Mince" from Woolies and had it analysed and found that it actually contained 20% ground up unsold smallgoods from the deli bar that they would otherwise have to toss out, I'm sure the local fair trading would have a thing or two to say.
> 
> Now mince with ground up smallgoods might be quite palatable and even desirable in some recipes - could make a cracking spag bog sauce - but they should declare it onthe label, and to do it secretly is unethical IMHO.


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## Bribie G (29/6/12)

Thread closed, **** Woolworths. :icon_cheers:

Edit: a pic from photobucket should display above, not working at the moment by the looks.


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## Dave70 (29/6/12)

So now they're adding it for no charge?
Can't be fairer than that I spose..


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## Bribie G (29/6/12)

Well that's a point. I expect Queenslanders of the average intelligence out there will now be asking for their Permeate voucher at the checkout ("I'll have my roots and tips done as well please") <_<


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## Wolfy (29/6/12)

Bribie G said:


> Thread closed, **** Woolworths. :icon_cheers:


Don't close the thread, I have this in the fridge thanks to you and this thread (since I'm not the media junky that most others are and didn't know about it before.





Not that I care about permeate _per se_, but now that I know it's included in Coles-milk, I hope that this stuff (as well as being 'extra creamy') will make better yoghurt.
(Which I'll reculture from the tub on the left not SWMBO's horrible fake custard on the right.)
In the past DIY yoghurt has been a runnier than I'd like, so maybe it will turn out better without what is essentially whey added back in.


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## Dave70 (29/6/12)

Wolfy said:


> In the past DIY yoghurt has been a runnier than I'd like, so maybe it will turn out better without what is essentially whey added back in.



Try stirring a little full cream milk powder into it. From memory, I use a couple of tablespoons per litre. 



On an unrelated note, I believe the phrase 'limited addition' gets bandied about far to liberally nowadays..


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## Wolfy (29/6/12)

Dave70 said:


> Try stirring a little full cream milk powder into it. From memory, I use a couple of tablespoons per litre.


Don't you mean "_milk solids_" - at least that is what they call it on the ingredient label. 
But yes I do add a spoon or two of powdered milk.


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## Malted (29/6/12)

Wolfy said:


> Don't you mean "_milk solids_" - at least that is what they call it on the ingredient label.
> But yes I do add a spoon or two of powdered milk.



Are permeates a by-product of making milk solids?


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## Wolfy (29/6/12)

Malted said:


> Are permeates a by-product of making milk solids?


I was talking about the ingredients listed on the yoghurt tub.


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## Malted (29/6/12)

Wolfy said:


> I was talking about the ingredients listed on the yoghurt tub.


Ok, I will stir from a similar angle.

Is permeate a by-product of powdered milk production?


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## Malted (29/6/12)

OMG! Bribie! What are you doing man? This would have been perfect for recycling an old photo! Wasn't this one of your previous favourites?


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## Rod (29/6/12)

I use Devondale point 1 milk in my tea

used to use shape

had a look at the label ---- skim milk with added milk solids etc , basically , no mention of permeate

rang Devondale and asked if it contained permeate 

the fellow on the end of the line at Devondale and he said he word talk to the manufacturer ( who was on the label ) and they would send me a letter -- could take 2 weeks

He said other milk products use permeate , but permeate from cheese whey is illegal to add to fresh milk products


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## Wolfy (1/7/12)

Permeate-free milk made the best tasting and textured home-made yoghurt that I've managed to make so far.
However, I'm not sure if that is related to permeate, that the milk was 'extra creamy' or the fact I used my Aldi-urn and a digital controller to keep the temperatures exactly where they should be.


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## pk.sax (2/7/12)

The culture in jalna tubs is pretty good for making curd. Nice firm curd (yoghurt), a little sourness as there should be.

talking the Jalna natural version here. Never had a problem as long as using full cream fresh milk.


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## Bribie G (14/9/12)

Well the barricades have fallen and the troops rejoice. 

Today as I walked into Aldi the posters in the window proclaimed "All Aldi fresh white milk is now permeate free"

Apparently Coles and Woolies to follow fairly soon. 

B) B) B) B)


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## Malted (14/9/12)

Bribie G said:


> Well the barricades have fallen and the troops rejoice.
> 
> Today as I walked into Aldi the posters in the window proclaimed "All Aldi fresh white milk is now permeate free"
> 
> ...


Homegenisation, severly limited -yay! Will we now target pasturisation? 
Then we can complain about reduced shelf life - oh the joy!


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## a_quintal (15/9/12)

On a side note the 2 big boys want to keep their milk the same price, as part of the price war, however not using permeate will add 10-15 cents a litre. The dairy farmers believe the supermarkets don't want to pay the extra coast and will try to squeeze it from the farmers. If that's true those guys can't catch a break.


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## manticle (15/9/12)

Malted said:


> Homegenisation, severly limited -yay! Will we now target pasturisation?
> Then we can complain about reduced shelf life - oh the joy!



Completely different - avoiding homogenisation does not pose a health risk.

That said, I'd love to see some unhomogenised and unpasteurised dairy products become more widely available here. Proper French cheese mmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Malted (16/9/12)

manticle said:


> Completely different - avoiding homogenisation does not pose a health risk.
> 
> That said, I'd love to see some unhomogenised and unpasteurised dairy products become more widely available here. Proper French cheese mmmmmmmmmmmm



Yes they are different.
Point being Manticle is that 'Homogenised and Pasturised' has been displayed on bottles for donkey's years, it's just people did not know that homgenisation = permeate. Permeate addition is nothing new. The milk has been good enough previously; the milk has probably* not changed, _our_ perception of it has. This whole debacle probably took 40 years to catch up with what was going on. 

*I wouldn't be surprised if the 'Big Two' had increased permeate levels for increased profit margins.


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## benno1973 (16/9/12)

I agree with what you're saying Malted, but I don't think homogenisation meant the addition to permeate to create a homogenous product across the range. Homogenisation (I understood) refers to homogenising the cream and milk, so that the cream doesn't separate out from the milk. I remember when milk was delivered in the old style bottles and I'd eat the cream off the top of the top before my brother and sister could get to it. Kinda ruined the rest of the milk (made it essentially skim milk) but the cream tasted so good. When homogenisation came in, I had to share the creamy goodness.

I do agree with 



> Permeate addition is nothing new. The milk has been good enough previously; the milk has probably* not changed, our perception of it has.


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## Wolfy (16/9/12)

Malted said:


> it's just people did not know that homgenisation = permeate. Permeate addition is nothing new.


Homogenization does not _have _to equate to the addition of permeate.
The theory/principle of homogenization is to break up the fat so that it does not separate out during storage resulting in the 'creamy' layer ontop.
Obviously permeate could be included in that process to also standardize the milk across farms/seasons, but it does not have to, even the 'permeate free' milks are usually homogenized (which sucks for the easy availability of good cheese making milk).


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## Malted (17/9/12)

Wolfy said:


> Obviously permeate could be included in that process to also standardize the milk across farms/seasons, but it does not have to



Yes perhaps I did not phrase it as well as I could have. It sounded like I was suggesting that it was always in the product. I should have said 'could equal', at any rate this above seems like a much better way.


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## Bribie G (26/9/12)

A couple of our local dairy producers in SEQ offer "pasteurised homogenised" and "pasteurised only" with the rich cream on the top. It's nice jersey milk as well. Pasteurisation came in mainly to control tuberculosis. When I was a kid we used to get tested at school annually with "skin prick" and if we didn't show immunity then next thing we were being approached with a big scary needle.


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## Kai (27/9/12)

Homogenisation also has the added benefit of making the milk appear whiter due to the smaller size of the fat globules.

The biggest irony of the virulent 'anti-permeate' ad campaigning is that one of the principal companies involved was under the spotlight themselves just a few years ago, for the permeate content of their milk. Now they are proudly permeate free, with a dinky-di Aussie farmer proudly spruiking their milk as the true-blue stuff in a 30 second slot on the telly. 

The 'common person' is also completely unaware of the level of processing that goes into their milk. It is stripped, separated, standardised, sent to all the appropriate product streams and reformed. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, the issue is just the disparity between common and professional knowledge of the process. The whole permeate issue is just a big old sensationalised game of catchup in general knowledge. 

What it all comes down to is reactionary moves to Coles initial volley in the price wars... the one-dollar milk. A disgusting move that has sparked repercussions on our entire national food chain that will be felt for decades to come. 

It also tastes like shit. Must be the permeate.


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## super_simian (27/9/12)

So what will now happen to all the permeate?


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## punkin (27/9/12)

World wide bacon shortage.

The pigs can eat the permeate and grow extra ribs for our bacon.

luckily ham, pork chops, pork roasts and spare ribs are all safe from the world wide shortage. It's just bacon that's under threat.



IWonderHowGullibleTheAverageConsumerReallyIsPunkin


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## DU99 (27/9/12)

the shortage is being caused in europe/usa.which will put demand's on our market.


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## neithan (27/9/12)

Well, it's been going on for a long time and people, well they don't really care aslong as the prices stay the same. Apparently Australia is going to be the first country to grow genetically modified wheat, and no one batts an eyelid over that! Go figure..


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## glenwal (27/9/12)

Anyone remember years ago when they kicked up a stink about our fuel having ethanol in it.

Permeate free milk means more waste (given permeate comes from the milk anyway) which means more cows farting, which means more global warming.

My guess is Coles and Woolies both go permeate free, and then bring out "green" milk (there marketing will do a better job of a name), which is milk with permeate added back to it, and the government will ban milk that doesn't have permeate because its not environmentally friendly.


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## bum (28/9/12)

punkin said:


> World wide bacon shortage.
> 
> The pigs can eat the permeate and grow extra ribs for our bacon.
> 
> ...


Fairly gullible, I'd say. But not entirely in the way you imagine.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/mon...e_of_pork_.html


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## punkin (28/9/12)

bum said:


> Fairly gullible, I'd say. But not entirely in the way you imagine.
> 
> http://www.slate.com/articles/business/mon...e_of_pork_.html




That's actually exactly the way i'd imagined...




> It all began, strangely enough, with a press release from an obscure foreign trade association. The National Pig Association of the United Kingdom, you see, wants British customers to feel OK about the idea of paying a higher retail price for pork products. Theyd particularly like it if British customers went out of their way to buy locally produced pork. And why wouldnt they?
> Vendors want you to buy more of their product at higher prices is more or less the ultimate dog bites man (or, as the case may be, pork chop) story. But the press releases provocative ledeA world shortage of pork and bacon next year is now unavoidablecaptured the imagination of the Internet. Not right away, mind you. The release is dated Sept. 20, but the looming bacon shortage didnt start making global headlines until Tuesday, Sept. 25.


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## bum (28/9/12)

punkin said:


> That's actually exactly the way i'd imagined...


The way in that there is actually a legitimate reason for the price of pork products to rise?

Keep sippin' that Kool-Aid.


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## punkin (29/9/12)

bum said:


> The way in that there is actually a legitimate reason for the price of pork products to rise?
> 
> Keep sippin' that Kool-Aid.




No, i imagined on the reason that the global press announced it on. Not that they knew anything about a legitimate reason that happened to coincide with the marketing ploy.



What is the reference to kool aid? Just some reason for a random putdown that makes you feel big about small things, or in relation to something i've said.

Afraid i'm not smart enough to follow you.


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## brettprevans (29/9/12)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid


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## mmmyummybeer (30/9/12)

Permeate free, I say is it just another marketing ploy??? It is so sad that so many people buy into marketing bullshit when they have no idea what permeate is, just because it is pertraded as bad. 
Permeate is a term used when a product is passed through a membrane plant. Permeated is the smaller particles such as in the case of milk it's the lactose and minerals. It is called permeate because it it permeable and can pass through the membrane or filter. The particles that don't pass through is retenteate as it is retained. In milk this is components such as milk fats and casein protein. Casein protein is the the most important component in cheese making. 
If you run the milk through a membrane plant at the very start of the process you can concentrate the casein and fat levels and increase yield, and therefore maximize production rates of a cheese plant. 
As for adding bleaching agents well that may well have happened in some cases but legally I'm sure it doesn't and wouldn't be a standard part of the process. Lots of things happen in factories and even the farm that shouldn't, a farmer adding the water hose to a vat to increase his milk, (freeze point testing of milk can now detect it. I've heard stories in the past of Peroxide being added to milk to reduce bacterial counts when milk was getting old, anyway point being there are many stories of things that happen but doesn't necessarily mean it to be a integral everyday part of the process. 
When UHT milk was released people didn't buy it because they thought it sounded like a chemical was added. UHT stands for Ultra Heat Treatment, basically milk is heated to a higher temperature for a shorter time compared to standard pasteurization. It has a better microbial kill rate so the milk will last longer. 

Anyway be careful what you led to believe as the same tactics could be just as easily per trade on to beer, ie whirl flock, seaweed used in making beer, and do I even need to mention fish products for finings etc. Anyway that's my 
2 cents of ramblings


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