# New Grainfather Conical Fermenter



## Exile (13/8/16)

At beervana in Wellington. New conical fermenter coming early next year


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## Cervantes (13/8/16)

Is it truly a conical bottom or a flat bottom with a small conical entry into the nozzle?


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## timmi9191 (13/8/16)

I would take a guess and say it is a conical and the angled bottom is under the outer panel. 

Again guessing, Id say the outer panel continues past normal point on a conical to mount onto the stand.

Unusual but i like it. Built in heating and cooling and programable

Price?


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## Brownsworthy (13/8/16)

Yep i would say it is as it is double walled so I reckon it's hidden by the outer skin which looks as though it's there to support it on the stand.

Got in before me timmi


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## Exile (13/8/16)

timmi9191 said:


> Price?


First born and arm & leg. Most likely


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## timmi9191 (13/8/16)

Exile said:


> First born and arm & leg.


Yep figures, nothing likable is cheap..


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## Killer Brew (13/8/16)

Sounds like you need to provide your own glycol unit


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## Feldon (13/8/16)

Cold water ex fridge by pump would be adequate to cool a small homebrew fermentor. Glycol is overkill IMO.

Nice looking unit though. Yeah, price is the thing, but the Grainfather mash/kettle is pretty good bang-for-buck. So hopefully this one is inexpensive as well.


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## paulyman (13/8/16)

Hmm. This throws a spanner in the works. Was considering a kegmenter, but might hold off and see how this goes for pricing. Would be easy enough to pump cold water through it from the fridge. Sounds like it's what the ftss and brew bucket should be.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (13/8/16)

Feldon said:


> Cold water ex fridge by pump would be adequate to cool a small homebrew fermentor. Glycol is overkill IMO.
> 
> .


Yup.

Brine is actually less efficient than water* but increases the effectiveness of the cooling jackets because the delta T is larger, so it's mainly useful in large tanks**.

If you have enough jacket surface area / fermenter volume you be will be fine with water at say 4 oC***

If you do want to run brine, you don't need glycol. Freezing point depression is a colligative property so it depends on the molarity of the solution, not the solute. Calcium chloride and metho both work well, a corrosion inhibitor**** may be useful depending on system design.




* Factoid: The volumetric heat capacities of over 90% of materials lie in a really narrow range between 2.4 and 3.6 MJ/k/m3 despite their densities being distributed over a range 50 times larger. Water is anomolously high at almost 4.2.

**Surface area to volume ratio decreases as the 2/3 power of volume assuming tanks shape is constant.

*** Unless you need to be able to chill your fermenters / storage tanks below zero, then you obviously need a coolant that is below your target temperature. This is the case in wineries where chilling to - 2 to - 4 oC is standard practice for stabilisation.

**** Any alkaline phosphate will work, K2HPO4 is most common.


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## GalBrew (13/8/16)

I still like my conical/freezer combo better.


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## timmi9191 (13/8/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Yup.
> 
> Brine reduces the volumetric heat capacity of the coolant but allows you to run at a lower temperature. This results in a decrease in fridge plant efficiency but an increase the efficiency of the jackets, so it's mainly useful in large tanks*.
> 
> ...


And the subtitle version reads: _water cooled from a fridge is good for small volumes. Radiator coolant is pretty good too..._


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## Feldon (14/8/16)

One potential issue for this new fermentor is the risk of putting too much pressure through the jacket, particularly if the sheet metal is thin (and the original Grainfather mash/kettle vessel has thin stainless).

The BREWHA BIAC system in the US had this problem (https://brewhaequipment.com/ ). Even without restricting the flow of coolant from the outlet of the jacket, the inner wall blew out and distorted when users put mains pressure water through it. They now supply a pressure reducing valve for the inlet to prevent this.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (14/8/16)

FV cooling jackets are normally dimple plate to prevent that very problem. Dimple jackets are rated up to about 6 Bar.

Edited as per discussion below.


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## wessmith (14/8/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> FV cooling jackets are normally dimple plate to prevent that very problem. Dimple jackets are rated to about 6 Bar.


Never in commercial FV vessels. Try 2 to 2.5bar max operating and 3 bar manufacturers test. The real issue is the inner skin, we have seen UK manufactured vessels pillow in at 3.5 to 4 bar. We actually install a pressure bypass valve on the chiller outlet to restrict the pressure to 2 to 2.5 bar in the glycol ring main. Also, we dont use automotive glycol (ethylene glycol) due to its toxicity. Propylene glycol is the preferred additive.

Wes


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (14/8/16)

Yes, I've edited it to say "rated up to about 6 Bar".

Most of our tanks come from A&G, they offer 3 Bar or 5.5 Bar rating.

Mind you we're too mean to pay for the higher rating.


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## Black Devil Dog (14/8/16)

I wonder what size they'll be. I've got a couple of Brewbuckets and it's a bit disappointing that they didn't make them 30 litres.

Hopefully G.F make these 30 litres.


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## wessmith (14/8/16)

Yes, we know A&G but what service are you quoting? Winery tanks? Brewery FV and BBT vessels must meet AS4343 class B or class C because of the gas over liquid rating with final compliance and registration to AS1210-2010. Industrial pressure vessels are a whole different ballgame many requiring full vacuum as well as a pressure rating. Fascinating business these pressure vessels.

Wes


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## Hippy (21/5/17)

Interested to see how much these will be as well as the glycol unit.


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## paulyman (21/5/17)

Hippy said:


> Interested to see how much these will be as well as the glycol unit.



The prices I've seen are:

$740 for the conical.
$140 for the dual valve tap.
$90 for the temperature controller.
$1430 for the glycol chiller.

Those prices put it at a similar price to the BME chronical 7. The SSBrewtech glycol unit doesn't seem to ever be coming to Aus as far as I have heard and I have put feelers out, at least for a price anywhere near that, so they may have the market there.


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## SBOB (21/5/17)

paulyman said:


> The prices I've seen are:
> 
> $740 for the conical.
> $140 for the dual valve tap.
> ...



~$900 for a 30L conical with a pretty tricky looking valve setup

outside impulse buy territory


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## Hippy (21/5/17)

Yeah that sample valve looks like a bitch to clean.


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## wambesi (23/5/17)

Hi all, I thought I'd quickly jump in and post a few photos I took this morning after reading the last two posts.

Although I may be bias, I do believe this tap design is quite innovative and personally don't think its tricky - it also comes apart quite well for easy cleaning - there's also a little wire brush included.


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## Peter80 (26/5/17)

Is the tap a ball valve and if yes can it be disabled for cleaning?


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## malt junkie (26/5/17)

wambesi said:


> Hi all, I thought I'd quickly jump in and post a few photos I took this morning after reading the last two posts.
> 
> Although I may be bias, I do believe this tap design is quite innovative and personally don't think its tricky - it also comes apart quite well for easy cleaning - there's also a little wire brush included.
> 
> ...


Way more complex than used in commercial setups. I don't get why it needs to be so, more parts, more seals, more crevasses for nasties to hide.I prefer the rotating racking arm used by Stout, Glacier, and most commercial CCV manufacturers, simple to use, simple to clean.

Innovative it probably is, and if you like it and it works for you, all good.


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## Hippy (26/5/17)

malt junkie said:


> Way more complex than used in commercial setups. I don't get why it needs to be so, more parts, more seals, more crevasses for nasties to hide.I prefer the rotating racking arm used by Stout, Glacier, and most commercial CCV manufacturers, simple to use, simple to clean.
> 
> Innovative it probably is, and if you like it and it works for you, all good.


I tend to agree.
Don't get me wrong I think the conical itself looks like a very well designed piece of kit and with a glycol unit would be any home brewer's wet dream. However I have recently picked up a 100L conical with triclover ball valves which I will be replacing with butterfly valves as soon as possible because they are much easier to clean and sanitize. While the tap design is quite clever I feel that it has a lot of small parts that will require a lot of attention when it comes to cleaning.
That's just my opinion however and it may be completely wrong as I've never had any practical experience with the grainfather conical.


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## lespaul (26/5/17)

Seems like the jacket system and glycol chiller is wayyy too much money for something thats limited to 30lt, overkill?


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## skb (12/8/17)

So did anyone take the plunge and get one ?


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## paulyman (22/8/17)

skb said:


> So did anyone take the plunge and get one ?



I did. Done two batches so far and dumped both due to oil contamination. There was no instructions on taking apart the tap for cleaning!

After dumping batch 2 tonight I took some time to see if I could take it apart and more importantly put it back together. Took some video and have posted to the Grainfather Users Facebook group. There was oil residue everywhere inside the damn thing and two tsp cleans hadn't helped. Good and clean now and relatively easy to clean and take apart/put back together. 

Again, no idea why there are no instructions out there.

Great bit of kit otherwise, hopefully now the tap is fully cleaned up I can get a batch through it that doesn't taste like rancid oil.


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## fungrel (23/8/17)

paulyman said:


> I did. Done two batches so far and dumped both due to oil contamination. There was no instructions on taking apart the tap for cleaning!
> 
> After dumping batch 2 tonight I took some time to see if I could take it apart and more importantly put it back together. Took some video and have posted to the Grainfather Users Facebook group. There was oil residue everywhere inside the damn thing and two tsp cleans hadn't helped. Good and clean now and relatively easy to clean and take apart/put back together.
> 
> ...



I saw those videos you posted. How odd the package didn't include strip-down instructions for the tap.


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## paulyman (23/8/17)

fungrel said:


> I saw those videos you posted. How odd the package didn't include strip-down instructions for the tap.



Yeah it is strange. Ssbrewtech have detailed instructions on how to prep their conicals and brew buckets and how to strip the ball valves. Although the little ball valve on the brew buckets doesn't break down particularly far which I don't like, it's the same one as on the GF tap.


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## wambesi (23/8/17)

Hi there, you're right that we don't have it in the instruction manual at the moment but we should have a PDF shortly with the instructions for it and hopefully next print run will see it included


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## wambesi (29/8/17)

Thanks for the videos but we also now have the following available: https://www.grainfather.com/media/wysiwyg/PDFs/DualValveTapAssembly_copy.pdf


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## EalingDrop (4/11/17)

wambesi said:


> Thanks for the videos but we also now have the following available: https://www.grainfather.com/media/wysiwyg/PDFs/DualValveTapAssembly_copy.pdf


This will come in handy, I've just ordered the Grainfather Fermenter (pro edition). 

I'm making a glycol chiller using a bar fridge, tray of water and a pump. To stop the water freezing, I'm considering adding anti freeze but not sure if has any adverse effects on the cooling jacket.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (4/11/17)

EalingDrop said:


> This will come in handy, I've just ordered the Grainfather Fermenter (pro edition).
> 
> I'm making a glycol chiller using a bar fridge, tray of water and a pump. To stop the water freezing, I'm considering adding anti freeze but not sure if has any adverse effects on the cooling jacket.



Why bother with antifreeze? Just use metho, it's vastly cheaper and just as effective. Since you don't need very low brine temperatures you can use ~20% metho in water.


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## EalingDrop (30/11/17)

paulyman said:


> I did. Done two batches so far and dumped both due to oil contamination. There was no instructions on taking apart the tap for cleaning!
> 
> After dumping batch 2 tonight I took some time to see if I could take it apart and more importantly put it back together. Took some video and have posted to the Grainfather Users Facebook group. There was oil residue everywhere inside the damn thing and two tsp cleans hadn't helped. Good and clean now and relatively easy to clean and take apart/put back together.
> 
> ...


Pauly, have you dry hopped in this yet? If so, how did you find dumping hop debris?

From their website, it only talks about fruit additions going into nylon bags, but that won't work with a NEIPA dry hop schedule where I intend to dump the first lot of hops just a bit after active fermentation.

Orginally thinking of a Witbier which would be easy. but changed my mind.


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## paulyman (30/11/17)

EalingDrop said:


> Pauly, have you dry hopped in this yet? If so, how did you find dumping hop debris?
> 
> From their website, it only talks about fruit additions going into nylon bags, but that won't work with a NEIPA dry hop schedule where I intend to dump the first lot of hops just a bit after active fermentation.
> 
> Orginally thinking of a Witbier which would be easy. but changed my mind.



Yeah I have done a dry hop. Put 200g straight in no bag and it dumped out fine. I have the pressure transfer setup now as well which comes with a stainless siphon, so makes transfer with large hop additions even easier.


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## wambesi (30/11/17)

One of our testing guys has been dumping hops through the yeast dump, but it's going to depend on the amount of course.

We also have the longer inlet ideal for hoppier beers, I have yet to use it myself though.


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## EalingDrop (30/11/17)

Sweet! Just the answers I needed.

The ghetto glycol is also in place. Using [email protected] of water to test and a starting water bath temp of 5c, it takes 4mins per degree. The fridge could not chill it any future and reaching an equilibrium of 12.8c. Good enough for Ales.

Since that first test, I've submerged the coolant panel directly into the water bath and using a much larger and flexible bucket (26L).

I'm not 100% sure if it's possible to cold crash without requiring to add ice, will find out in a few weeks.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (1/12/17)

Very nice! Should pop some isolation valves on the inlet and outlet on the fermenter so you don't have to drain the glycol coil inside everytime you move to clean/hose down etc. Even some form of dry break coupling on the hose and then inlet/outlet would be perfect.


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## EalingDrop (1/12/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Very nice! Should pop some isolation valves on the inlet and outlet on the fermenter so you don't have to drain the glycol coil inside everytime you move to clean/hose down etc. Even some form of dry break coupling on the hose and then inlet/outlet would be perfect.


Well, that'll make life too easy wouldn't it?  Great tip! TBH At $99 for the cooling kit, it should probably have come with it.

It's only water for the moment and the Inkbird is set at 1c so not worried about feeezing. I'll be working towards getting it to cold crash, and been told it needs to go below freezing in the water bath to achieve cold crash temps (circa 0c ) in the conical. 

To do this I need to get that water bath below freezing but I can't get my head around seeing frozen water moving. I will make a sample of the 20% metho (as suggested by LCycles) in a Tupperware and see if it works.


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## paulyman (2/12/17)

EalingDrop said:


> Well, that'll make life too easy wouldn't it?  Great tip! TBH At $99 for the cooling kit, it should probably have come with it.
> 
> It's only water for the moment and the Inkbird is set at 1c so not worried about feeezing. I'll be working towards getting it to cold crash, and been told it needs to go below freezing in the water bath to achieve cold crash temps (circa 0c ) in the conical.
> 
> To do this I need to get that water bath below freezing but I can't get my head around seeing frozen water moving. I will make a sample of the 20% metho (as suggested by LCycles) in a Tupperware and see if it works.



The quick release connections that come with the cooling kit should allow you to disconnect without leaking glycol. At least the ones I got with the chiller do.


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## EalingDrop (2/12/17)

paulyman said:


> The quick release connections that come with the cooling kit should allow you to disconnect without leaking glycol. At least the ones I got with the chiller do.


Not from the hose but from the conical. When the red line is disconnected the lower one will drain. 

Currently that's the least of my problem. 
The water bath in the ghetto glycol has half frozen and the Inkbird was registering 4c at the bottom. Unfortunately the top layer of the water bath is frozen solid with the pump in it.


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## EalingDrop (5/12/17)

EalingDrop said:


> Not from the hose but from the conical. When the red line is disconnected the lower one will drain.
> 
> Currently that's the least of my problem.
> The water bath in the ghetto glycol has half frozen and the Inkbird was registering 4c at the bottom. Unfortunately the top layer of the water bath is frozen solid with the pump in it.


In an effort to melt that ice, I used a spare pump and ran it through the a wort chiller. It took 10 mins to cool from 30c down to 18c. Much faster than chilling with tap water and rescued the GF cooling pump as a result. Turns out to be a great solution for fast wort chilling in the summer! 

LCycles, I'll need to hit you up on some more info on making GLYCOL. Is it as simple as 20% Metho? 

Can't find anything in AHB. Would prefer food grade glycol, and from what I've read, Diggers Metho is fairly safe as they don't contain Methonal, instead uses Ethanol.

Also wondering if this solution has any impact on the pump which is plastic.


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## Bridgey23 (6/12/17)

EalingDrop I see what you mean now about the glycol coming out of the fermenter when disconnected. One of my fermenters does the same the other one is like paulyman's and doesn't leak. Seems the connections for the fermenter that came with the glycol chiller don't leak and the ones supplied with the extra glycol hoses pour out when disconnected. They are different one set has like a valve the other is just open. 
I will be contacting Grainfather to see if they can replace the connections that don't let the glycol out. Seems rather pointless having to drain the glycol every time I want to move it to clean.


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## EalingDrop (6/12/17)

Bridgey23 said:


> EalingDrop I see what you mean now about the glycol coming out of the fermenter when disconnected. One of my fermenters does the same the other one is like paulyman's and doesn't leak. Seems the connections for the fermenter that came with the glycol chiller don't leak and the ones supplied with the extra glycol hoses pour out when disconnected. They are different one set has like a valve the other is just open.
> I will be contacting Grainfather to see if they can replace the connections that don't let the glycol out. Seems rather pointless having to drain the glycol every time I want to move it to clean.


The blue line entering the fermenter is lower than the red out coming out, and it makes sense to have a check valve. I never knew they weren't suppose to drain when you unplug it. Thanks for the insight! Will chase it up with the supplier.


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## EalingDrop (15/12/17)

Bridgey23, how did you go with the outlet fitting on the Grainfather? I asked my supplier (DistilleryKing) and they said GF will be sending one.

The conical is holding temperature well, and I rarely hear the cooling kit come on which is impressive as ambient temp is high 20's lately. Dry hopped with 100g plus hops and no issues draining. The heavy spring on the dump tap takes getting used to and can quite easily open too much without experience. Tap area is tight and looking at extending the legs to create some room.

A few days a ago, with nothing to lose, I decided to put the Ghetto Chiller on a Cold Crash test. Expectations was low as previously the system reached equilibrium at only 12.8c. 
But with some adjustments to the position of the temp prob/hose line etc, it's chilled to a respectable 6.5c. I can't understand why the water bath is 1c and the fermenter can't get lower than 6.5c though. Maybe conical surface is warming up too quickly in spite of the double wall design.

I'm only 2.5c away from the lowest programmable temp (4c) on the conical controller. Keen to achieve the 4c though.


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## peteru (15/12/17)

Maybe a thermometer / probe calibration is in order, just to make sure that the temperature figures you are getting can be trusted.


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## Bridgey23 (15/12/17)

EalingDrop said:


> Bridgey23, how did you go with the outlet fitting on the Grainfather? I asked my supplier (DistilleryKing) and they said GF will be sending one.


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## Bridgey23 (15/12/17)

Oops sent that last one too
early. 
Yeah EalingDrop I contacted Grainfather and my hoses will be replaced when available. Apparently there's was some mix up and Grainfather were supplied with some of the wrong type. 
I have had a couple of problems with the chiller so not really able to comment too much on its operation other than so far this is an excellent unit and once my issues have been fixed I think it is going to be a great addition to my brew house. 
Grainfather are working through it with me and hope to be running at capacity again soon. 
The tap is awesome for dumping yeast and dry hopping, agree it's a bit tight on space below the tap. Longer legs would have been better. 
Good idea to calibrate temp to peteru. I haven't done that yet.


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## EalingDrop (15/12/17)

Would be nice to not worry about the glycol (in my case water) draining out from the fermenter body, but if that doesn't come through, I'll just put a reducer nipple (3/8 > 1/2 in) + cistern tap on it, which would be less likely to get bent as the 90 degree angle would be closer to the body instead of the weird arms sticking out like a scarecrow it is atm. 

I'd like to test the accuracy of the Conical's lower temp reading and will find out that this weekend during bottling. If it's not accurate, I'm not sure how you can calibrate the GF conical's controller...maybe it's hidden in the settings (I hope).


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## find_another_slave (12/11/18)

Apologies for dredging up this old thread, but I've just gone through my first ferment using the GF Conical and cooling pump kit. Ferment was handled at well with "ghetto chiller"
ie water set at 2 degrees in my old ferment freezer (chest freezer that was my keezer, using the font hole for hose access). It came time to cold crash...started well...and tapped out at 10.5 degrees. So upped the stakes - increased water volume, chucked in heaps of ice. Water temp 0.2 degrees. I also fashioned a ghetto conical coal out of a $3 yoga mot I found at the op shop. Off we went again. Tapped out at 7.1 degrees! I decided to let it run overnight, early AM i saw indeed it had finally made it to 4.1. Happy days. Until I looked later, and saw the temp rising, despite the pump running 0.2 degree water through constantly. I had some stuff to do during the day, so by the time I got to keg it (i'd had enough fighting it by this point), it was back up to 8 degrees! So obviously ambient plays a big factor, and makes me wonder what chance I will have if I ever find myself trying to crash in summer when the night temp stays up over 20!

So obviously - the GF Glycol chiller is an option - a fricking expensive one. Instinctively, another option is to find an upright fridge/freezer I can put this in to crash it. I feel conflicted about this as 1, it'll mean another fridge/freezer, and two, it just seems like it's defeating the purpose. Very tempted to flick it, and go SS Brewtech route in a temp controlled fridge. Issue with this is that the fermenter was a birthday present from my wife...she'll understand, but you know...

Super impressed with yeast dump - couldn't believe how much came out (and how much was left in the end - whole cone was chockers, and I was dumping schooner glasses full at a time every couple of days). I also discovered I need the longer dip tube, for the same reason.

Anyways, would be very interested in hearing/seeing others experiences since this thread. I did find to stop the leaking out of the fermenter body when the hoses are disconnected, if you pull the pump end out of the water(BEFORE you disconnect the hoses), it did drain into the bucket, but is there a way of achieving this on the chiller?


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## EalingDrop (28/11/18)

My setup hold it's at 4c at (25c ambient).
The large volume of water (big Bunnings flexible bucket) in the ghetto chiller is set at 2c as the ENTIRE freezer plate is submerged in the bath.

You shouldn't need to worry about water coming out of the jacket, Grainfather supplied me with a new non return hose fittings, and all you do is disconnect the hot (Red hose) first then the cold (Blue hose).

If adding fruits like Blackberries, beware when using the dump valve as the small seeds get trapped to create a small gap for the beer to seeped out. I had no issues using a muslim cloth although had concerns with the fruit pillow blocking the beer pick up tube, this is unfounded. 

Minor issue is you can't dump the spent fruit before cold crashing and utilisation of clearing agents like Biofine might be less effective.

A summary page for the ferment settings would be nice to have.


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## find_another_slave (28/11/18)

Yeah, I had a 30L fermenter full of water running at 0.2 - may have been a slight differentiation between the the pump imput temp and the probe - not a lot I'd think - but the bit that spun me is that it couldn't hold against rising ambient. It's in a chest freezer so no freezer plate.

I will have to enquire about the non-return valves, though the process I put in my last post gets rid of virtually all the liquid, and at this stage - it's still water. (a tiny bit still comes out )

Question - given where the temp probe is - would you think if the cone was chock full (ie the full 5L), of yeast/Trub/hops, and no clear beer - would that have any effect on temp readings/crashing ability? ie is it harder/easier/the same to crash with the probe buried in sh!t? 

On a side note I've got a couple issues with the Dual valve tap which GF (well Bevie) have kindly offered to replace for me (Leaks from weird places). Fingers crossed my third ferment will be hassle free.


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## EalingDrop (28/11/18)

In post #39 the white flexi bucket is 42L, I've upgrade to a 60L since. I guess it's a combo of bigger thermal mass and direct chilling. The minor issue is a pool of water from condensation, which is leviated by the cooling sleeve.

The yeast cake/trub or whatever solids doesn't affect the temp prob. I've never seen the temp change when dumping yeast, which should expose the prob to clear beer.

A bit naughty, but I keep a bit of pressure in mine using a water bladder to catch Co2 - connected through the bung. This helps when cold crashing and reduce esters during ferment. I've be got it marked out how tightly to screw the tap in so excess pressure is released.


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## bradobrew (28/11/18)

My conical lasted 1 brew. On the 2nd ferment I noticed my tempreture reading was going up and down and eventually came up with a temp sensor error. I opened it up and found glycol water mix
inside, unforunately a few drops on the electronics and now the cooling pump dosent turn on. Tracked down the leak to a pinhole in the weld on the out post












20181112_162027_1



__ bradobrew
__ 28/11/18





After pulling it apart I found out its pretty flimsy and basic. Decided to go the ss brewtech path and grabbed a unitank and the FTSs2 controller, double the price but I figure it will last twice as long.


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