# Is your beer vegan?



## beercus (7/10/14)

Came across this article about a Vegan Oktoberfest. I am a carnivore myself but found it interesting.

https://www.finedininglovers.com/stories/vegan-beer-list-festival/

I use gelatin occasionally so I assume that rules out that beer from being vegan. Isinglass, pepsin and cochineal would also rule out a beer from this event, according to the article. What else do people use that would make their beer non vegan.

I wonder about yeast! I suppose vegans eat mushrooms and probably put yeast in the same category. 

I just imagine all these hippies running around pissed with a mug around their neck eating tofu. 

Beercus


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## Dave70 (7/10/14)

What a great idea!
In line with vegan guidelines I'll be brewing a tribute beer of yeast free flat wort.


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## beercus (7/10/14)

Dave70 said:


> What a great idea!
> In line with vegan guidelines I'll be brewing a tribute beer of yeast free flat wort.


 Nope just had a look around and the vegans argue yeast is OK to eat because they do not have feelings!


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## Dave70 (7/10/14)

I'd argue the contrary. 
Look at the lengths we brewers go to to 'keep yeast happy'.


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## TimT (7/10/14)

Yeast is fungus, whole different category to animals. Though as Dave says, the little fungal beasties just seem so damn frisky that it does seem a wee bit carnivorous consuming them.


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## TimT (7/10/14)

I wonder if agar can be used as a gelatine substitute in brews? I've dropped in a bit of agar into some of my brews but can't say I noticed the difference.

Other finings that have been used - egg white (nup), blood (double nup.... though lovely nutrient for the yeast).


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## TimT (7/10/14)

Also, discovery made the other day - both eggs and milk contain amylase. Anyone want to crack an egg in their brew? I do wonder if the amylase plays its part in some old dessert recipes - custards, for instance.


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## Not For Horses (7/10/14)

I don't what's more horrible: The writing style of that article or the thought of Oktoberfest without pork.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/10/14)

Ross's Cock Ale probably wont go down well with the vegans


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## beercus (7/10/14)

Vegans don't like cock?
I thought the hairy vegan hippies loved the cock....


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## Dave70 (7/10/14)

Not For Horses said:


> I don't what's more horrible: The writing style of that article or the thought of Oktoberfest without pork.


Actually its casual implication that non vegans are comfortable with animal cruelty that shits me. 


Anyway, here's your tofu pig. Shut up and eat it.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (7/10/14)

Ok what about Muslim vegans ?


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## beercus (7/10/14)

Dave70 said:


> Actually its casual implication that non vegans are comfortable with animal cruelty that shits me.
> 
> 
> Anyway, here's your tofu pig. Shut up and eat it.


Where is the knuckle?


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/10/14)

Thats Fetta


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## mje1980 (7/10/14)

Don't know and don't ******* care to be honest.


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## Dave70 (7/10/14)

beercus said:


> Nope just had a look around and the vegans argue yeast is OK to eat because they do not have feelings!


Actually, that raises an interesting point. 
So its OK to MURDER a living organism for your own enjoyment so long as it cant feel pain, is ignorant to suffering or is otherwise anesthetized? Whats the policy on roadkill of animals who died from natural causes?
Seems a little kooky.


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## syl (7/10/14)

All mine are vegan, and being a vego I don't miss pork!


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## Dave70 (7/10/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Thats Fetta


Sorry, it looked slimy, gross and is resting in it's own slightly opaque fluid so I naturally assumed..


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## MrDave (7/10/14)

Surely on the "industrial scale" mentioned in the article, they're using Polyclar or similar rather than gelatine or isinglass?
I guess the dinosaurs that died to make the PVPP had feelings too.


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## syl (7/10/14)

Dave70 said:


> Sorry, it looked slimy, gross and is resting in it's own slightly opaque fluid so I naturally assumed..


 it was pig fat???


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## syl (7/10/14)

MrDave said:


> Surely on the "industrial scale" mentioned in the article, they're using Polyclar or similar rather than gelatine or isinglass?
> I guess the dinosaurs that died to make the PVPP had feelings too.


A lot were using gelatine and isinglass until recently.


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## wide eyed and legless (7/10/14)

Even though yeast is a single cell organism, it along with all other living things has the basic instinct to to survive and will reproduce when under threat, this is not a concious decision, it is something that has to be in all living things otherwise they wouldn't be alive.


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## Dave70 (7/10/14)

syl said:


> it was pig fat???


Actually, frying it in pork dripping would go a long way toward making it editable.


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## 2much2spend (7/10/14)

Sorry if you choose not to eat even honey you got issues in my book!


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## Dave70 (7/10/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Even though yeast is a single cell organism, it along with all other living things has the basic instinct to to survive and will reproduce when under threat, this is not a concious decision, it is something that has to be in all living things otherwise they wouldn't be alive.


Absolutely, been toughing it out since the dawn of time and those heartless Kevorkianesque vegans want to MURDER our microscopic brothers by the gazillion. Tut tut tut..
I hope they soak up all that delicious tofu juice with damper.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/10/14)

Dave70 said:


> I hope they soak up all that delicious tofu juice with damper.


There prob on a gluten free diet.


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## Bribie G (7/10/14)

Does anyone know where I can get the proper "leaf" fat to render into lard? The leaf fat is from around the kidneys and loin of the pig. My local butcher hasn't even heard of calf liver so I'm at a dead end there.


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## pk.sax (7/10/14)

Bribie G said:


> Does anyone know where I can get the proper "leaf" fat to render into lard? The leaf fat is from around the kidneys and loin of the pig. My local butcher hasn't even heard of calf liver so I'm at a dead end there.


Book an appointment at the local surgery and drink lots before you go in.
Remember to tell the Mrs it was a special gift.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/10/14)

Bribie G said:


> Does anyone know where I can get the proper "leaf" fat to render into lard? The leaf fat is from around the kidneys and loin of the pig. My local butcher hasn't even heard of calf liver so I'm at a dead end there.


You looking for suet type fat. The butcher will need to order it from the Abottoir. Eversons at Fredrickton will supply it easy enough if the butcher orders it from them,

I know this because when I did some work for them a bloke rolled up wanting a few KG of it, but they dont sell retail


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## Black Devil Dog (7/10/14)

Be careful, I joked about vegans once, but I think I got away with it....... :blink:


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## schoey (7/10/14)

Bribie G said:


> Does anyone know where I can get the proper "leaf" fat to render into lard? The leaf fat is from around the kidneys and loin of the pig. My local butcher hasn't even heard of calf liver so I'm at a dead end there.


I think your referring to caul fat. Your butcher should be able to get it for you, if not find a butcher that does offal.


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## Ducatiboy stu (7/10/14)




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## Not For Horses (8/10/14)

Dave70 said:


> Actually its casual implication that non vegans are comfortable with animal cruelty that shits me.


Yeah I was pretty pissed about that as well.
I happen to be an animal lover as well as a meat eater and I will not be dictated to by sanctimonious vegans that insist on labeling me as cruel.


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## Bribie G (8/10/14)

One pillar of vegan propaganda is that vast areas of farmland are used to produce grain that is fed to animals. This grain should be fed to humans.

Firstly as a Paleo sympathiser I avoid grains wherever possible. I dabble in sourdough bread etc but only as a very minor part of my diet. Grains are basically anti-nutrients and should be consumed with caution. That's why sourdough is good as it removes the phytic acids that make normal grain products harmful.

Secondly the vegans totally miss the point that rangelands and pasture lands are not able to be farmed for vegetables or grains. This was the mistake made in the USA who opened up prairie lands to smallholder farmers who ploughed up vast areas of prairie for agriculture leading to the dustbowl in the 1930s. Today states such as Oklahoma and Arkansas (the original dust bowl, read Steinbeck) only sustain agriculture through a poisonous mix of pesticides and herbicides, artificial fertilisers, irrigation and now GM varieties. According to Nat Geo most of the American Mid West farmland is in danger of collapse in our lifetimes.

Thus rangelands and pasture lands are an ideal global resource for producing the planet's most widely eaten meat - goat - as well as sheep and grass fed cattle, deer, roo and other delectable morsels.
Take free range meats out of the market and the planet would starve within a year.

I avoid factory or feedlot raised meat, and only purchase free range eggs.. locally if possible. I'm in a great position here as I have access to excellent free range everything in the Manning Valley, but people in capital cities have an even better access to this produce due to the proliferation of farmers markets and online suppliers, if they choose to get off their arses and make a choice. A good example is Bangalow Free Range pork, I can't get it here as it all goes to the capitals.

Now for some lovely lard.. I'll check with Mr Butcher re the pig fat, thanks for the leads.


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/10/14)

Plants have feeling to


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## seamad (8/10/14)

I brewed a vegan beer once but it turned out to be a sanctimonious self-righteous git and I was forced to drink it.I've also brewed a carnivorous beer, it got into the chook house and ate the chooks ( is this then a cock ale ?) and when I caught it eyeing off the dog that was it with my mad scientific brewing experiments, i just brew normal beers nowadays.


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## Bribie G (8/10/14)

My vegan beer turned out to be very pale and thin with mousy rat-tails of hair tied in a lank ponytail and her name was Melissa. The beer used to do endless cycling dressed in stupid lycra so I eventually tipped it down the drain as I couldn't stand the pallid complexion, the complete lack of hips and the missed periods.

Now I only brew rich dark luscious carnivorous beers with big white eyes and scarlet lips and nice curves.


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/10/14)

Cows are vegans.


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## TimT (8/10/14)

If you don't count the cow milk they drink as babies.


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## Forever Wort (8/10/14)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM


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## Airgead (8/10/14)

Bribie G said:


> Grains are basically anti-nutrients and should be consumed with caution.


*cough*bull$hit*cough*

I feel a rant coming on. 

We've been eating grains (and tubers) for many tens of thousands of years. We collected them long before we farmed them. Burned grains have been found in campfire remains from pre-humans. Our primate cousins eat grains. We have special adaptions (production of amalayse in saliva) that enable us to eat more grains. Those amalayse mutations date back from before we were humans (but after we split with our common ancestor with chimps). probably around a million years ago.

The whole paleo thing is almost as full of crap as veganism (the smug "ethical" kind... not the religious kind). Actual paleo diets consisted of anything from nearly 100% tubers and grains through to nearly 100% rancid seal fat.

Vegans have exactly the same warped view of nutrition only on the opposite direction (meat is poison and we never evolved to eat it which is also crap). 

Paleo is just an excuse to eat fatty food and feel smug about it. Veganism is just an excuse to feel smug.

There is some new research that points to good old dietary fibre as being the key health benefit in a more "primitive" diet (which is really anything earlier than the 1940s). Apparently, its over refining and processing food that causes problems by removing all the fibre. New research, very preliminary findings... but interesting. 

Rant over.

Cheers
Dave


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## philmud (8/10/14)

Q. How do you know if someone's a vegan?
A. They'll ******* tell you!


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## beercus (8/10/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Cows are vegans.


Most Cows get their protein from digesting bacteria. 
Do Bacteria have feelings?
Some cows are feed fish meal and also ground up other cows/animals... hence the madcow problem as they eat other cows brains....
Are they still vegan?

beercus


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/10/14)

I think the Palio diet is bollocks, just like the green wheat juice diet, the carrot diet, the poatoe diet, the stout dieat, the water diet, the green tea diet..

http://www.mamamia.com.au/wellbeing/pete-evans-dietitian-rant/

Clasic example of a rampant Palio supporter...


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/10/14)

beercus said:


> Some cows are feed fish meal and also ground up other cows/animals... hence the madcow problem as they eat other cows brains....
> Are they still vegan?
> 
> beercus


Not in Australia, farmers are not allowed to, by law feed animal meal to cattle

So Aussie beef is 100% vegan. :icon_drool2:

I rest my case.


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## Bribie G (8/10/14)

Maasai. Meat blood and milk.





Their next door neighbours, farmers.


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## Black Devil Dog (8/10/14)

The Breatharian diet is the best one, at least they die after a very short time.

If only some Hollywood A-lister would recommend it, then we could have a bit of a cull.


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/10/14)

maybe we can get our politicians on that diet


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## NewtownClown (8/10/14)

If we are not meant to eat animals, why the **** are they made from meat?


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## 2much2spend (8/10/14)

I think in going to be a 
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism
Read the definition.


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## Blind Dog (8/10/14)

Slighty OT, but my dad had a friend who was a strict fruitarian (only eats fruit without seeds that have fallen from the trees). No idea how he survived as we lived in a city at the time, but he was the maddest, kindest bloke I ever met and told the most amazing ghost stories with the gusto of Brian Blessed.


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## Not For Horses (8/10/14)

Thanks Dave for having my rant for me. I too have been reading a bit lately about fibre and its interaction with gut bacteria. Very interesting stuff.


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## Dave70 (8/10/14)

Bribie G said:


> Maasai. Meat blood and milk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*New England Journal of Medicine*


*Abstract*

*The Masai of East Africa exhibit some unique biologic characteristics. Despite their customary diet composed of 66 per cent calories as fat, they have persistent low serum cholesterol and beta-lipoprotein levels. Post-mortem examinations provided direct proof of a paucity of atherosclerosis. Metabolic studies revealed that the Masai absorbed large amounts of dietary cholesterol, but also possessed a highly efficient negative feedback control of endogenous cholesterol biosynthesis to compensate for the influx of dietary cholesterol. Two unusual serum-protein patterns were observed: the presence of a double alpha2 band; and a high level of serum IgA that is apparent at an early age (four years). The high ratios of phospholipid to cholesterol and bile acid to cholesterol in their gallbladder bile explain the extreme rarity of cholesterol gallstones. All these characteristics may reflect a long-term biologic adaptation of the tribe*.



Beside this, the Masai were well known for consuming soups and teas made from vitamin and antioxidant rich grasses, roots and barks. This was also a major contributor to their robust health, A fact that seems conveniently overlooked by paleo drum bangers. 

The myth they thrived exclusively on a diet of blood and milk is just that.


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## syl (8/10/14)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Be careful, I joked about vegans once, but I think I got away with it....... :blink:


You didn't


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## Dave70 (8/10/14)

NewtownClown said:


> If we are not meant to eat animals, why the **** are they made from meat?


Are jellyfish vegan friendly?


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## Airgead (8/10/14)

Blind Dog said:


> only eats fruit without seeds that have fallen from the trees


I thought having seeds was part of the definition of a fruit.


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## pcmfisher (8/10/14)

Don't eat anything that your grandmother wouldn't recognise.


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## beercus (8/10/14)

Dave70 said:


> Are jellyfish vegan friendly?


Petri dish meat? would this be ok to a vegan?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2013/08/130806-lab-grown-beef-burger-eat-meat-science/


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## Airgead (8/10/14)

pcmfisher said:


> Don't eat anything that your grandmother wouldn't recognise.


But I like curry! And Pasta.

Probably best to generalise that to Don't eat anything that *someone's* grandmother wouldn't recognise.

Except if you live on the central coast because your grandmother is probably only about 35...

Maybe "don't eat anything someone born after 1920 wouldn't recognise"


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/10/14)

I will just leave this here.


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## Dave70 (8/10/14)

beercus said:


> Petri dish meat? would this be ok to a vegan?
> 
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2013/08/130806-lab-grown-beef-burger-eat-meat-science/


Its a good idea, but what would we do with all the existing food animals? 
Just imagine if we didn't eat them, there would be cattle, chickens and sheep everywhere you looked! 
Roaming free.
Evolving.

Waiting..


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## beercus (8/10/14)

Dave70 said:


> Its a good idea, but what would we do with all the existing food animals?
> Just imagine if we didn't eat them, there would be cattle, chickens and sheep everywhere you looked!
> Roaming free.
> Evolving.
> ...


cows with guns?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5s5qGg01nE


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## Dave70 (8/10/14)

pcmfisher said:


> Don't eat anything that your grandmother wouldn't recognise.


Bread and dripping anyone?


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## Blind Dog (8/10/14)

Airgead said:


> I thought having seeds was part of the definition of a fruit.


Probably is. IIRC (and it was a while ago) i think the distinction was between a fruit with seeds like an apple or orange where eating the fruit left the seeds intact and thus with a chance at life, and legumes / brazil nuts and others where the edible portion is the seed such that consuming it denies it the chance at life

I didnt say it was sensible


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## beercus (8/10/14)

Italian Lardo on bread is amazing, leave to the Italians to cure pure pork fat!

http://www.johndellavecchia.com/2013/03/25/lardo-cured-pork-fat/


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## philmud (8/10/14)

Not For Horses said:


> Thanks Dave for having my rant for me. I too have been reading a bit lately about fibre and its interaction with gut bacteria. Very interesting stuff.


I saw the Catalyst that talked about this recently & was fascinated. I've been making & eating lots if probiotic foods, but hadn't heard about this connection.


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## TimT (8/10/14)

Lab-grown meat is interesting (if a little depressing, when you contemplate a completely artificial, inorganic future - plastic food, grown in plastic containers in plastic laboratories, wrapped in other plastic containers, and sent out to us for our enjoyment.... Soylent Green, anyone?) But there may be one or two roadblocks before we achieve this glorious meat-free future:

1) I haven't been keeping up but last time I read about this, it seemed the most meat-like artificial meat is cultured from cells taken from the body of a recently-slaughtered animal. Not something vegans would be happy with....

2) Cost of a cut of artificial meat: thousands of dollars, give or take. Cost of a cut of meat from an animal: let's say $10. This is not going to be a way to feed the world's poor anytime soon.


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## Blitzer (8/10/14)

Is whirfloc vegan friendly?


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## sp0rk (8/10/14)

Blitzer said:


> Is whirfloc vegan friendly?


Yep, it's Carrageenan from Red Marine Algae
AFAIK, Coldstream and Black Heart are the only breweries in Australia that use Isinglass (fish bladder) and even then it's only in their Pilsners and Pale Ales


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## TimT (8/10/14)

By the by, I'm reminded of a story Tom Hodgkinson tells in his recent book _Brave Old World_ - where he'd bought and raised a pig which he later killed and ate. Afterwards he received a visit from local government bureaucrats who took a rather dim view of the whole exercise - they informed him that in the EU (he's British), pigs could only be killed in government-mandated abattoirs.

That's right - far from having laws mandating against animal cruelty and factory farming, the EU virtually make animal cruelty and factory farming compulsory!

Other, closer-to-home examples come to mind from our o0wn experience with backyard chooks, but anyway, the take home message, I think, is.... vegans and animal lovers, the government probably ain't your friend!


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## Airgead (8/10/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Probably is. IIRC (and it was a while ago) i think the distinction was between a fruit with seeds like an apple or orange where eating the fruit left the seeds intact and thus with a chance at life, and legumes / brazil nuts and others where the edible portion is the seed such that consuming it denies it the chance at life
> 
> I didnt say it was sensible


F me sideways. That is a weird one.

Did he plant all the seeds? Or by chucking them in the bin did he deny them a chance at life?

Apparently there are some fairly out there Buddhist sects that wear face masks to prevent accidentally inhaling insects and move really slowly and carefully while wearing special soft felt shoes to avoid accidentally squishing bugs. But even they eat rice.


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/10/14)

Buddhist Extremists...they make there enemy die of old age and boredom to win the battle


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## tavas (8/10/14)

TimT said:


> Lab-grown meat is interesting (if a little depressing, when you contemplate a completely artificial, inorganic future - plastic food, grown in plastic containers in plastic laboratories, wrapped in other plastic containers, and sent out to us for our enjoyment....:


So McDonalds then


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## pk.sax (8/10/14)

Airgead said:


> F me sideways. That is a weird one.
> 
> Did he plant all the seeds? Or by chucking them in the bin did he deny them a chance at life?
> 
> Apparently there are some fairly out there Buddhist sects that wear face masks to prevent accidentally inhaling insects and move really slowly and carefully while wearing special soft felt shoes to avoid accidentally squishing bugs. But even they eat rice.


Actually Jain, not Buddhist.

I fund this convo hilarious and it rings too.
So do I find gluten free diets, purely meat diets, dairy free diets etc.

I choose to be vegetarian because of my belief in minimising taking advantage of those who can't defend themselves. No, I'm not about to start eating carnivorous meat.
A balanced diet is still necessary. Milk causes my sinuses to flare up if I already have them infected, I still try to eat dairy and start back on using milk in cooking as soon as I can on getting rid of the infected sinuses.
I really don't get the fad of frozen yogurts either, it contains uber truckloads of good bacteria that you simply kill off by freezing. Even worse are the stabilized sweet yogurt mini tubs.... rubbish.
People don't use grains and flour in cooking because it takes work to prepare, and then they claim gluten intolerance and buy expensive fibre extracts. A guy I knew who lived on junk food was starting to feel ill so he consulted someone, a doctor?! And bought an expensive bottle of powdered fibre. Needless, one slice of wholemeal bread has more fibre than the recommended dosage of that artificial crap.

The I only eat meat/fish crowd fits in nicely there too. Lazy.

Then there are the bloody fruitarians, loading up on fruit. Do you watch the massive hits of fructose you are ingesting? Only good are the vitamins and fibre and the body gets rid of excess of both. IMO, as long as it is low effort a diet will become a fad. You never find a fad composed of wholesome cooking involving a number of ingredients.

People are unhealthy because they are lazy, precious and downright dumb.

I have respect for all grain brewers, the words lazy or dumb doesn't enter that dictionary much.


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## Airgead (8/10/14)

practicalfool said:


> Actually Jain, not Buddhist.
> 
> I choose to be vegetarian because of my belief in minimising taking advantage of those who can't defend themselves. No, I'm not about to start eating carnivorous meat.


Ahh yes. Jain. You are quite correct.

And some of those cows can be downright vicious. I'm claiming self defence (Seriously dude... ethical vegetarians - more power to you good sir. Its sanctimonious vegans and crazy fad diets that get right up me)

Only dietary advice worth listening to -

Eat food (actual food ie: something someone born before processed food would recognise)
Not too much
Mostly vegetables.


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## TimT (8/10/14)

_I really don't get the fad of frozen yogurts either, it contains uber truckloads of good bacteria that you simply kill off by freezing. _

If there's an active bacteria culture freezing probably won't kill it but it'll knock it back a bit. Of course as frozen yoghurt is mostly mass produced stuff, and more about the sweet fruit they put in than the bacteria, it'll be targeted at people who (mostly) wouldn't want to think too much about the bacteria that goes into the process, and probably designed to get through stringent safety regulations - ie, the culture will either be pasteurised or a weak-as-piss lab variety designed to perform one or two runs of yoghurt culturing.


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## NewtownClown (9/10/14)

I don't get the "free range" argument...

An animal raised in overcrowded misery is going to be more grateful for its life to be ended than one has been given a range to roam and frolic and enjoy life in...
h34r:


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## moodgett (9/10/14)

Myself and the missus are along the lines of ethical omnivores. Just because you eat meat as part of your diet, doesnt make it cool to not give a shit about the animals wellbeing and life before it ends up as food. You can still show some respect to them, this also includes the manner in which they are killed. One of the reasons we havn't bought pork in quite some time is the fact of increasing rates they are slaughtered by being crammed in a pen and gassed to death...


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## Airgead (9/10/14)

moodgett said:


> Myself and the missus are along the lines of ethical omnivores. Just because you eat meat as part of your diet, doesnt make it cool to not give a shit about the animals wellbeing and life before it ends up as food. You can still show some respect to them, this also includes the manner in which they are killed. One of the reasons we havn't bought pork in quite some time is the fact of increasing rates they are slaughtered by being crammed in a pen and gassed to death...


Actually, that depends.... certain forms of gassing are regarded as very humane. In particular oxygen depletion is regarded as being among the best.

Essentially (if done right) the oxygen is replaced by another gas gradually (over the course of a minute or so) and the animals lose consciousness very quietly and reliably with no awareness. Usually its displaced by nitrogen or sometimes co2.

They have done experiments on this on humans (not to the point of death obviously) as part of training for spaceflight and similar. Essentially everyone sits in a room wearing an oxygen mask. One of them has their o2 supply gradually switched out until they go unconscious and the others have to look for the signs. Without exception everyone who goes unconscious that way reports zero awareness that it was even happening. there was no indication that the o2 was getting low. one minute they were fine the next they were out like a light.

Give me that over being dragged up a ramp and having a bolt shot into my brain while I can smell the blood of those that went before me...


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## Midnight Brew (9/10/14)

I treat other peoples diets like I do religions. I have no problem with them until they try and force their beliefs onto me.

The one bullshit diet I cant seem to get my head around is low fat diets. They wreak havoc on our bodies.

Our bodies run far more efficiently off fat then it does carbohydrate. The beauty of fat is it had more kilojoules per gram then carbohydrate or protein. Only issue is our body will prioritise on which fuel source it will use first. Toxin (alcohol), carbohydrate, fat, protein in that order.

So eating fat doesnt make you fat. The bigger picture is your other macronutrients. I think the universal view here is to eat real whole foods from each of the food groups. Or drink them.


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## Dave70 (9/10/14)

The humane slaughter of animals seems solely the purview of humans. 

From apex predator down to insect, virtually every (omnivorous) species seems to be equipped with the necessary teeth, talons, claws, venom's and so on that are more in line with causing an prolonged, agonizing death rather than a quick and painless one. When you think about it, the list of common foods we could tangle with mano a mano is a fairly limited one. Imagine trying to choke out a 300kg steer or punch a 100kg pig to death while it kicked ,squealed and tried to bite chunks out of you. I reckon a pig would **** you up and eat you, no problem. 


I hear a lot of human herbivores claim they don't miss eating meat and have never felt healthier. 

I submit - A - they never enjoyed meat in the first place - B Their diet and lifestyle was unhealthy to begin with.


I don't really know where I'm going with this. I think I may have re fried beans and a glass of juice for my luncheon.


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## Not For Horses (9/10/14)

B is a likely option.

I'm always amused by those that claim *insert current fad diet here* is so amazing and groundbreaking because they lost 20kg in 3 months.
Well no shit, that's because you used to eat pizza for breakfast and thought that a carrot was a measure for weighing gemstones.


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## Dave70 (9/10/14)

Midnight Brew said:


> Our bodies run far more efficiently off fat then it does carbohydrate.


Thats bullshit fella.
We metabolize fat for energy once liver glycogen stores are depleted, which is why most crash diets are based on are low carb, high protein, moderate / high fat model, but the body always exhausts the most bio available energy sources first, carbohydrates.


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## 2much2spend (9/10/14)

Don't forget we are not top of the food chain! Just Think single cell organism.


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## Yob (9/10/14)

Midnight Brew said:


> eat real whole foods from each of the food groups. Or drink them.


Whole Fish, Whole Chickens.... 

whole spring lambs :icon_drool2:


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## Mardoo (9/10/14)

Like a bit of fish, chicken or lamb bung, do ya Yob?


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## klangers (9/10/14)

If it's all just about the finings, then any beer that adheres to the Reinheitsgebot should be vegan. The beers are clarified by filtration without additives (kieselguhr)


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## TimT (9/10/14)

I only eat hole foods. Donuts, cheezels, Swiss cheese....


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## pcmfisher (9/10/14)

I have no ethical problem with eating meat. I do not put any animal on anywhere near the same moral standing as humans.

Do cows sheep and chooks feel hard done by or have any conception of "tomorrow" or "death" the way we do or in any way?

To be honest, I don't even care how it was raised or killed. To me it's food. If I had to do the slaughtering myself, it may be a different story. But I do not have to.


These animals have been bred for one thing only and that is to feed us.

Maybe I am just mean and heartless.

I do get emotionally moved by pictures of fried bacon though.


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## TimT (9/10/14)

_These animals have been bred for one thing only and that is to feed us._

_Maybe I am just mean and heartless._

You're not mean and heartless. You're just wrong.

Humans and animals have co-existed for a number of reasons, some for food, others not food related.

From cows we get meat, milk, and, as a by-product, cheese. We also get leather, and a wide range of clothes. Most of these require the death of a cow, though not exclusively.

From sheep, though, you can get clothes without killing the sheep.

Ditto bees, you can get honey from them without killing the hive, and with minimal loss of insect life. (The honey is usually stored above the larvae, so the safety of the larvae isn't often a concern in harvesting from the hive).

At the other end of the spectrum are animals who we've had a long relationship with that we have never wanted for food. Pets - but also working animals. Farm dogs, cats whose job has historically been to hunt mice. Or (in the case of the Egyptians and, arguably, modern humans) just to kind of hang around being holy animals of religious devotion(!)

So our relationship with animals is not as simple as you might think. (To put it, er, simply).


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## pk.sax (9/10/14)

You could equate the bred to comment to the Sicko who raped his daughter and kept her in a basement all those years, bred to... but lets not go there. If you make comments like you did ur gonna hear it back.


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## manticle (9/10/14)

pcmfisher said:


> I have no ethical problem with eating meat. I do not put any animal on anywhere near the same moral standing as humans.
> 
> Do cows sheep and chooks feel hard done by or have any conception of "tomorrow" or "death" the way we do or in any way?
> 
> ...


I have no ethical problem eating meat either but I do have ethical issues deliberately causing pain to living creatures and would prefer to avoid it where I can. I'm nowhere near militant about it but I'm a long way from totally apathetic. They might be bred to eat and they might not have the same concept of death but they have nerves and feel pain. You obviously never had a puppy as a kid.


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## Dave70 (9/10/14)

I reckon he did. 
And ate it.


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