# Hoppy beers



## ajmuzza (6/11/13)

I like hoppy beers. I've been chasing big hop aroma akin to my commercially brewed favs. I no chill and have used the French press and Argon methods a couple of times and dry hop the crap out of my brews and I just can't get anywhere near what I'm looking for. Basically no aroma at all really.

simple solution (I hope) is to chill. So I'm going to get a 50' immersion chiller. 

Couple of questions.

How do you whirlpool with an immersion chiller?
What's the deal with whirlpool hopping and chilling?
How long would it take to get to pitching temp?

Any words of advice from those with immersion chillers?


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## rehab (6/11/13)

I have chilled and believe it comes out a lot cleaner than the time I slow chilled (a bitter mess). I also think that you should chuck a bunch of hops at 0 minutes. I am moving away from Big dry hops as I bottle and don't get much apart from grassiness after time. I did a Wookey Jack clone a while back and things went so wrong during the mash I thought it was unrecoverable and I was going to pour it. 
Thing is I had smoked it with a big 0 minute addition during the boil and it was HUGE. No dry hop needed and it didn't have a nasty astringent taste to it.

This is all my experience though and others will ask about water etc etc. I think you can do it before you touch the salts and then when you do it will make it better again.

Chur


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## Judanero (6/11/13)

-I whirlpool after I've taken the chiller out (And hopsock)

-Can't really comment as the last hops I add are usually at flameout and dry hopping

-Depends on: The volume of wort you're chilling(more will take longer), the temp of the water flowing through chiller(colder=quicker chilling.. is a pre chiller being used?), room/outdoor temp.
For me it generally takes about an hour for ~25L without pre chiller, but I hook up the chiller 'out' to a sprinkler so the garden gets a good soaking 

I only really chill for my hoppy beers, and I recently even bought a hop rocket but it's not yet incorporated into my system *sigh*


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## ajmuzza (6/11/13)

Bought some calcium sulphate the other days but haven't used it yet. Not sure on how much to use. In any event, I doubt it would fix things. Even with 0 minute additions in an argon mini boil I'm still not getting any fresh aromatic hope flavour when compared to commercial beers.


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## Yob (6/11/13)

What amounts are you dry hopping with? I exclusively no chill and even without dry hops I get plenty of aroma...

Kegs though...


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## ajmuzza (6/11/13)

I use kegs too and have dry hopped in primary and kegs. Generally dry hop at 3G/l for 3 days in a hop bag.


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## Crusty (6/11/13)

ajmuzza said:


> Bought some calcium sulphate the other days but haven't used it yet. Not sure on how much to use. In any event, I doubt it would fix things. Even with 0 minute additions in an argon mini boil I'm still not getting any fresh aromatic hope flavour when compared to commercial beers.


I've been playing around with brewing salt additions lately & I can't believe how much of a difference it can make to your finished beer.
Download EZ Water Calc Metric & enter in your strike water, plug in your recipe & see your estimated mash pH. You can then decide to manipulate the mash to get to your desired pH & focus on whether you are after a hop forward beer, balanced or malt driven. Check down the bottom & see if you are in the ball park for the recommended guidelines according to Mr P.
You will need to contact your local council & get a PDF of your actual water supply & punch those figures in first.
Before doing this myself, I was brewing away with a pretty high mash pH knowing it & making some decent beers but since playing around with the salt additions, my beers have definitly improved.


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## Yob (6/11/13)

If you're getting no aroma with 3g/l there must be more at play.

3g/l should rip your face off


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## Crusty (6/11/13)

Yob said:


> If you're getting no aroma with 3g/l there must be more at play.
> 
> 3g/l should rip your face off


I agree.
1g/l is all I use & that's enough for me.


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## MCHammo (6/11/13)

Silly question... Are the hops you're using relatively aromatic? And are they relatively fresh?


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## boonchu (7/11/13)

When I chill I use an immersion chiller hooked up to a bilge pump sitting in an esky with water and 3 bags of ice, brings 25L down to 27*c in 30 minutes. The coil sits in the ice and runs to pre chill it and gets a sanitiser bath before hitting the boiler.
Then whirlpool after its finished.


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## boonchu (7/11/13)

Also look to dry hop after the first 3 -4 days as large amounts of c02 can strip aroma from your beer.


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## wbosher (7/11/13)

Crusty said:


> I've been playing around with brewing salt additions lately & I can't believe how much of a difference it can make to your finished beer.
> Download EZ Water Calc Metric & enter in your strike water, plug in your recipe & see your estimated mash pH. You can then decide to manipulate the mash to get to your desired pH & focus on whether you are after a hop forward beer, balanced or malt driven. Check down the bottom & see if you are in the ball park for the recommended guidelines according to Mr P.
> You will need to contact your local council & get a PDF of your actual water supply & punch those figures in first.
> Before doing this myself, I was brewing away with a pretty high mash pH knowing it & making some decent beers but since playing around with the salt additions, my beers have definitly improved.


Sorry if this seems like a silly question but if I were to contact the council enquiring about the local water supply, what information specifically am I after?

For the OP, I generally find it takes about 10 - 15 minutes to cool about 25l of wort to pitching temperature with my immersion chiller. This is if I give it a stir every couple of minutes. If I just let if sit there, it takes much longer. I will normally do this a couple of minutes after adding the flameout hops. Once at pitching temp, remove chiller, whirlpool and let sit for about 20 minutes before syphoning to fermenter. That's my approach anyway.


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## ajmuzza (7/11/13)

Crusty said:


> I agree.
> 1g/l is all I use & that's enough for me.


Yeah that's would I would have thought as well. I'm truly getting nothing from the dry hop. I've been using cascade, citra, simcoe into both the primary after fermentation has stopped or into the keg. I read about everyone have these fruit salad beers. I can't get any where near it. The hops are sealed pack fresh and smell pungent as out of the bag. Maybe one last crack with a massive cube hop?


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## Yob (7/11/13)

My last 4 cubes have been done this way, can't comment on effect as they've not been fermented yet. With only a small kettle addition losses to kettle are minimal through so at the least I like that about the method.


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## Crusty (7/11/13)

wbosher said:


> Sorry if this seems like a silly question but if I were to contact the council enquiring about the local water supply, what information specifically am I after?


You just need to ask them for an analysis of your drinking water. They sent me a 5 page PDF.
They may not have it publicly available on their website but will send you a copy if you request it.




The mean column is the average so that's what I use.

Put the required fields into Ez water calc as below.



Plug in your recipe & see what pH you are getting & play around with your salt additions to get the desired pH as well as keeping everything inline with the recommended levels according to Palmer.
Adding around 1% ( 50g ) of Acidulated malt to the grain bill will bring your pH down.
Just tweak it so you focus on what you want to achieve. At the bottom of Palmers recommended levels, you will see by adding the salts, you can enhance bitterness, have it balanced or enhance maltiness.


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## Dan Pratt (7/11/13)

+1 Crusty on the Water - if your chasing better hops quality, this is something that would help.

My experience with the Immersion Chiller and getting better hop aroma is that I moved the whirlpool hop to a steeping hop. I tried this for a while without dry hopping and I got a great level of aroma with High Alpha Acid Hops, 9%AA or higher ( you can use lower but you need alot more, alot more)

Steeping would require that as soon as the boil finished, on went the immersion chiller ( a 50' copper coiled ) and I would chill the wort for about 1-2mins to get the temp to below 90c _ it rapidly drops in temp in the first few minutes. Stop the water flow when I get to 85c and then add my hops @ about 1.5g/L. You can either whirlpool them as they go in or just let them drop in, I like to give it a swirl, not really a consistent whirpool.

Let this rest for 15-20mins, then crank up the immersion chiller again and it will cool to below 30c in no time, I usually have to use about 200lts to get it below 25c but thats another story. :huh:


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## wbosher (7/11/13)

Wow, thanks Crusty. Just Googled it and found detailed local chemical analysis online. Now just have to figure out what it all means.


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## JDW81 (7/11/13)

Yeast can also play a small-medium part. 1056 vs 1272 is a good example. 1272 tends to highlight hop flavour and aroma more than 1056. 

JD


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## piraterum (7/11/13)

Check out this article

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/


Bascially if you want to preseve hop oils and thus flavour and aroma you should chill your wort to below 64 deg before throwing your late additions in.


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## wbosher (7/11/13)

piraterum said:


> Check out this article
> 
> http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/
> 
> ...


Very interesting. I've been using the Dr Smurto's method of waiting about 20 minutes before chilling, after adding flameout hops, although lately it's been more like 2 or 3 while getting the chiller set up. Might need to try chilling down a bit first.


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## ajmuzza (7/11/13)

piraterum said:


> Check out this article
> 
> http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/
> 
> ...


Good article. However, would have thought that I'd still be getting something from the dry hop.


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## Dave70 (7/11/13)

ajmuzza said:


> How do you whirlpool with an immersion chiller?
> 
> 
> 
> Any words of advice from those with immersion chillers?



A - I bought a wooden spoon with the biggest head I could find and shoved the handle into my cordless drill. 
Stick it down the middle of the coil and kind of half trigger on high gets a nice whirlpool going without stirring it into a oxidized wort smoothy. Whirlfloc at 5 min seems to help the cold break clump also.

B - Either void the chiller _completely _of water or have it connected both sided before you dunk it into the wort or else she'll spit boiling water at you. That was an object lesson I'll not soon forget..


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## Spiesy (7/11/13)

Pratty1 said:


> My experience with the Immersion Chiller and getting better hop aroma is that I moved the whirlpool hop to a steeping hop. I tried this for a while without dry hopping and I got a great level of aroma with High Alpha Acid Hops, 9%AA or higher ( you can use lower but you need alot more, alot more)


What does AA% have to do with aroma?

Surely with a low AA% hop, you could add more, for less bitterness and more aroma?


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## piraterum (7/11/13)

ajmuzza said:


> Good article. However, would have thought that I'd still be getting something from the dry hop.


Yeah I was thinking that too.

But beer chemistry is seriously complicated. There are so many factors at play throughout the whole process. With late hopping it occurs anywhere from flameout until when pitching temp is reached. So for part of that time the hops are being steeped at a relatively high temp compared to dry hopping. Also variables such as pH, gravity and the presence of alcohol and carbon dioxide may influence the way the hop oils react in the wort.


This article is worth a read too with some points raised by professional brewers

http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php


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## Pagey (7/11/13)

piraterum said:


> Check out this article
> 
> http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/
> 
> ...


Yep and that is exactly what I do.
I throw in the flameout additions once I am well into cooling. Usually 50c ish.
Anywhere between 20g - 60g for a 21L batch depending on how much I want in the end. 20g = mild aroma 60g = quite large aroma...
I do cool pretty quickly though, drop a copper coil into the boil with 15mins to go then at flame out I start pumping ice water through it.! So it really doesn't take me long to drop 50c down to 17c which is about where I pitch my ales..
I have dry hopped once. I wasn't really a fan of the grassyness but in saying that it did fade with time. I just don't like waiting.


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## Dewey (8/11/13)

Have you thought about FWH (first wort hopping)?

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/03/17/the-first-wort-hop-beer-brewing-techniques/

Cheers,

Dewey


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## Dan Pratt (8/11/13)

Spiesy said:


> What does AA% have to do with aroma?
> 
> Surely with a low AA% hop, you could add more, for less bitterness and more aroma?


Hi Spiesy,

My understanding is that higher AA%'s of hops used will create better aroma character due to the increased levels of available oils to impart into the wort creating that hoppy aroma.

The lower Alhpa hops do not contain the same levels of oils which is why the % is lower and why using them for late/WP/steep or DHopping will not achieve the desired hoppy character.

You can add as much low AA hops as you like to the steeping or dry hop, this will not equate to any bitterness at all.


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## ajmuzza (8/11/13)

Dewey said:


> Have you thought about FWH (first wort hopping)?
> 
> http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/03/17/the-first-wort-hop-beer-brewing-techniques/
> 
> ...


Plan is to do a APA to about 50IBU with half the IBU from a FWH and the rest from a cube hop. Maybe a single hop number given Yob's special prices. Also contemplating chucking the cube in some ice to try and get it to under 64 ASAP.


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## micblair (8/11/13)

Usually higher alpha equates to higher oil content.

I'm not sold on the idea of pre-chilling the wort and then hopping in the 60's. Think about how most brewery's pump straight into a heat exchange at the end of the boil, this process is something only homebrewer's would come up with. It is an inelegant solution, and introduces another avenue for infection.

Put a lid on your kettle to condense the essential oils once you've dumped the hops into the whirlpool, or invest in a hop-back. Most of the compounds which contribute to beers aroma are simple hydrocarbon derived terpenes, which are relatively inert to pH 4 and a bit of heat. 

Provided your boil was long enough and vigorous enough, condensing other volatiles such as DMS shouldn't be a concern.


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## mxd (8/11/13)

ajmuzza said:


> Plan is to do a APA to about 50IBU with half the IBU from a FWH and the rest from a cube hop. Maybe a single hop number given Yob's special prices. Also contemplating chucking the cube in some ice to try and get it to under 64 ASAP.


I have done FWH and mash hopping and haven't "felt" like I got a lot/different aroma from that.

I do a 0 min no chill, which is basically a 10 min hop addition to get to the IBU then add em at flameout, I also do about 3g / litre dry hop.

There was a AIPA that hoser did (centenial AIPA, no chill) that was amazing with the aroma, I've never been able to get my aroma that good.


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## Pagey (8/11/13)

micblair said:


> I'm not sold on the idea of pre-chilling the wort and then hopping in the 60's. Think about how most brewery's pump straight into a heat exchange at the end of the boil, this process is something only homebrewer's would come up with. It is an inelegant solution, and introduces another avenue for infection.


Agree entirely. I am absolutely a gheto brewer but damn it produces some nice results. I think that 50c mark is just enough to pull the oils off the hops and a rapid chill means very little is lost.

Totally agree with the infection part though. So far I've been lucky. Could also have something to do with my insistence on good healthy yeast that is active and ready to go being pitched at the perfect temps. Very particular with my yeast so that probably helps a lot.


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## piraterum (9/11/13)

Pagey said:


> Agree entirely. I am absolutely a gheto brewer but damn it produces some nice results. I think that 50c mark is just enough to pull the oils off the hops and a rapid chill means very little is lost.
> 
> Totally agree with the infection part though. So far I've been lucky. Could also have something to do with my insistence on good healthy yeast that is active and ready to go being pitched at the perfect temps. Very particular with my yeast so that probably helps a lot.


The risk of infection by the addition of hops below 64 deg is a moot point.

The likelihood of this is being a problem is incredibly small, particularly given the natural antibiotic properties of hops. In a small time frame you're also going to add billions of yeast cells which will easily out compete any introduced bacteria.


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## toncils (10/11/13)

Pratty1 said:


> Let this rest for 15-20mins, then crank up the immersion chiller again and it will cool to below 30c in no time, I usually have to use about 200lts to get it below 25c but thats another story. :huh:


Whoaly shiz...you don't put all that water down the drain?


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## Dan Pratt (10/11/13)

toncils said:


> Whoaly shiz...you don't put all that water down the drain?


It would be a guess to say 200lt, it may only be half of that quantity but if you feel any better about it that water goes onto the lawn


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## popmedium (10/11/13)

Do you rack off your yeast before dry hopping? I'm noticed a tonne of aroma gets lost if you dry hop without racking the beer in to secondary first. 


Sent from my iPhone using Aussie Home Brewer


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## Yob (10/11/13)

Nope... can do but I feel thats just another process which is over rated. (Without good reason to do so but I dont believe dry hopping is one of those)

I _*have*_ done, but only on beers that required it, like my AAAIPA where the trub/drbris level was starting to get over the tap level and I was worried about it blocking...

you shouldnt be losing that much aroma if you are DH near the end of the ferment, its not the yeast itself that scrubs it but the fermentation action.


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## micblair (11/11/13)

Hops do have an anti-microbial effect, but not against beer spoilage bugs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Aussie Home Brewer


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## toncils (20/11/13)

I always wondered if you'd lose a whole lot of aroma when your hops sink into the trube?

Nyeh, all water stays on the earth. But 200lt per brew is a lot of cash on your bills. Could be worth finding a watertank to store/reuse?


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## DJR (20/11/13)

Maybe get rid of the hop bag and just throw the pellets into the fermenter. Wouldn't do that with 3g/L though. And how long are the hops staying in? Also if your pH is wrong or there is not enough calcium I believe this can lead to poor hop extraction

also what yeast are you generally using and at what temp?

shouldn't be having a problem getting flavoursome/aroma filled beers with that kind of hopping schedule

Not sold on the > 64C thing.... although I do have a hoprocket and a borrowed plate chiller that really does create buckets of hop aroma from extracting the hop oils with hot wort and then rapid chilling


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## hoppy2B (20/11/13)

I tend to agree with the point of view that hot wort is better at dissolving hop oils into solution. I have let wort cool to 90 degrees in order to reduce AA isomerization before adding hops and achieved good results. 
Yeast strain is critical to the level of flavour retained. I don't really aim for aroma, but do seem to have good aroma when I crack a bottle. I don't know it that's due to the aroma being in the neck of the bottle or if I just become desensitized to aroma as I drink the beer.
An alternative to gypsum might be acidulated malt for those who wish to keep their beer more pure.


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## toncils (30/11/13)

Anyone done any experiments into dry hop strength between primary and secondary?

In primary, I'd have thought the hops would sink into the trube and be useless.


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## Kranky (30/11/13)

toncils said:


> Anyone done any experiments into dry hop strength between primary and secondary?
> 
> In primary, I'd have thought the hops would sink into the trube and be useless.


The hop oils released during dry hoping are volatile. During primary the fermentation process blows off a lot of the hop oils so there's not a lot of point to it.


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## Yob (30/11/13)

During early ferment some does get blown off, many wait until just a few points remain to do so...

Dry hopping rocks, I will also often dry hop at cold conditioning and/or keg for beers/styles that it suits


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## toncils (30/11/13)

The trube though? Does it affect all this?


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## Yob (30/11/13)

As long as its exposed to the beer, no probs, as they settle, they're still sitting on the top of the trub right?


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## toncils (30/11/13)

Aha, that makes sense; the hops shouldn't sink into the trube.

I dry hopped my last batch, didn't think to check if they'd float. Delicious beer, though- 20g gram Northern Brewer dry in a 9lt batch (14 for 60, 4 for 20 and 5 for 5).


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## Yob (30/11/13)

Flowers will float, pellets tend to break up and waft about before settling out.


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## toncils (6/12/13)

I know this thread is moreso about aroma, but I've always wondered what the difference is between, say, 30g for 60 minutes VS 60g for 30 minutes, (or the IBU equivalent)? IE- if the bitterness stays the same, what's the taste difference?

That MR Malty link is sexcellent.


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## Donske (7/12/13)

toncils said:


> I know this thread is moreso about aroma, but I've always wondered what the difference is between, say, 30g for 60 minutes VS 60g for 30 minutes, (or the IBU equivalent)? IE- if the bitterness stays the same, what's the taste difference?
> 
> That MR Malty link is sexcellent.


I find bittering additions at 20 minutes quite nice, retains some flavour, it's what I have used for my last few MO/Cascade SMaSH beers.


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## piraterum (7/12/13)

toncils said:


> I know this thread is moreso about aroma, but I've always wondered what the difference is between, say, 30g for 60 minutes VS 60g for 30 minutes, (or the IBU equivalent)? IE- if the bitterness stays the same, what's the taste difference?
> 
> That MR Malty link is sexcellent.


Whilst the bitterness level is the same the flavour profile changes a lot depending on the time of the addition and the hop variety used.

The timing of additions also depends on the style being brewed. Some beers like a wheat beer or a Coopers Pale Ale style brew only have a 60min addition.

There's a correlation between boil time and the amount of bitterness and flavour imparted. Generally a 60min addition will extract maximum bitterness but impart little hop flavour. A 30min addition will extract about half the bitterness of a 60min addition but will impart a little more hop flavour. There's a general consensus late hop additions, ie the last 20mins to whirlpool additions, impart the most hop flavour.

This had lead to ideas such as 10 mins IPA's where all the hops are added in the last 10mins of the boil to achieve the same IBU level as a traditional hopping schedule. The practice of only using late addition is called ‘hop bursting’. Hop selection is important in particular using aromatic varieties like Cascade, Amarillo, Tomahawk, Simcoe, Chinook, and Centennial.

There is an increasing school of thought late hop additions create a smoother bitterness than a 60min addition. Having said that the bitterness, perceived or otherwise, seems to be different between a 60min addition and a late addition.

I know Scotty from Rocks Brewing is a big fan of strictly using a 60min addition and a whirlpool addition. I’ve started trying this too with good results. There bitterness level is relatively similar to a traditional hopping schedule but the hop flavour is much more prominent.


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## toncils (7/12/13)

Aroma aside, it's a more gravelly or undefined bitterness in longer boils?

How would it taste if you, say, boiled for 120 minutes but still achieve the same ibu? (disregard the malt flavours, I know that would taste hugely different)?

I plan to start trying late hopping. Never been into bitter flavours, so it would be nice to smooth them out.


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## piraterum (8/12/13)

toncils said:


> Aroma aside, it's a more gravelly or undefined bitterness in longer boils?
> 
> How would it taste if you, say, boiled for 120 minutes but still achieve the same ibu? (disregard the malt flavours, I know that would taste hugely different)?
> 
> I plan to start trying late hopping. Never been into bitter flavours, so it would be nice to smooth them out.



There is a general consensus a 60min boil extracts the maximum bitterness from hops. After this point it tapers off and there is no benefit in a longer boil. So bascially 60mins is the longest boil you'd do, there is no point boiling the wort beyond this.

Using all late additions doesn't seem to impart the same level of bitterness as a a 60min addition to provide an underlying bitterness in conjunction with late hopping. So to get a right balance of bitterness try a 60min addition to achieve a 1/3 of your IBU target and using late hopping to provide the remaining 2/3's of the IBUs.


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/12/13)

Some hop utilization times in the boil

5mins.......8%
10mins.....12%
20min...... 16%
30min.......24%
40min.......26%
60min.......35%
80min.......37%
100min.....40%
120min.....42%


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