# Help with hefeweissbier



## verysupple (14/6/13)

Hi all,
Bavarian wheat beer is one of my favourite styles. Back in my kit and extract days I brewed quite a few of them and they were OK but I really needed ferment temp control - some of the summer brews turned into banana bombs.

Now I'm doing AG and have a temp controlled fermenting fridge, I thought my hefeweissbiers would be even better. Wrong! I did 2 back-to-back brews of the same recipe and they are bland and boring. The mouthfeel is too thin. The flavour is bland with very little esters or phenolics and no beautiful bready/wheaty character. The aroma lacks any hint of clove or banana or wheat but has a hint of sulphur (although the sulphur reduces after a couple of weeks in the bottle). I need help! It's very drinkable, just not a proper hefeweissbier. I've read the style of the week thread here as well as everything else I could find on weizen.


The recipe was:

60% German wheat malt
40% German pils malt

BIAB single step mash at 67C for 60 min
Dunk sparge

Boiled for 60 min with a single 60 min Hallertau hop addition to 14 IBU

Wyeast 3068 fermented at 17C (I figured if that temp is good enough for Les The Weizguy and Jamil, then that's good enough for me  )


I got crappy efficiency on both brews - about 61% on each (I usually get about 75 - 80%). I read lots of posts saying it's the wheat crush but as I get it crushed from the HBS I'm OK with crappy efficiency, as long as it's consistently and predictably crappy  .

I pitched yeast starters as per Mr. Malty and during the 2nd and 3rd days of fermmentation I got huge amounts of hydrogen sulfide, but hit target FGs after about 3 days. About 2 points below target FG I started raising the temp to 19C. After 2 weeks in the FV I primed and bottled to ~2.8 vols.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I love this style and it's such a shame to drink a bland version of it.

EDIT: Also, the first one is cloudy as it should be and the second is clear as....like a krystal, even though it's not filtered :s


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## treefiddy (14/6/13)

I thought these beers were made with unmalted wheat (or at least a considerable portion)?
Never made one though.


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## verysupple (14/6/13)

Nah, witbier uses unmalted, weizen uses malted.


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## nathan_madness (14/6/13)

Hey, what brew calculator do you use? I will send you my recipes if like.


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## manticle (14/6/13)

Try a step mash and decoction.

If you want clove, incorporate a ferulic acid rest, head straight to low sacch at 62 and hold for ten, the bump to 68 for another 40 minutes. 72 for 10, mash out.

Ferment temp is good, recipe is good.

Some people suggest underpitching in weizens can help push clove and banana. I'm not a fan of underpitching deliberately but I do also often find the Mr malty estimates unrealistic. Just make a 1-2 L starter from a fresh smack pack, don't abuse it (temp wise and oxygen wise) and add the whole thing when it's active.


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## Rowy (14/6/13)

treefiddy said:


> I thought these beers were made with unmalted wheat (or at least a considerable portion)?
> Never made one though.


No


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## verysupple (14/6/13)

nathan_madness said:


> Hey, what brew calculator do you use? I will send you my recipes if like.


I just use a modified version of Ianh's spreadsheet. Your wheaties are great though, so whatever format you have them in I should be able to convert


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## aaronpetersen (14/6/13)

I agree with Manticle. I just made what I think is my best hefeweizen to date using a step mash. I can't remember the rest times, but the temps were 53, 63, 72, 78. I didn't decoct, just applied direct heat to increase the temp. Grain bill was 50/49/1 wheat/pils/acidulated.
I probably slightly under pitched (unintentionally) and fermented at 17deg. I actually split the batch in two and aerated one half and not the other just after I pitched the yeast. The aerated half is balanced with noticeable clove and banana, whereas the non-aerated half has more banana but is still very good. I often get a bit of sulphur with that yeast, but it dissipates with time.


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## verysupple (14/6/13)

manticle said:


> I'm not a fan of underpitching deliberately but I do also often find the Mr malty estimates unrealistic. Just make a 1-2 L starter from a fresh smack pack, don't abuse it (temp wise and oxygen wise) and add the whole thing when it's active.


Yeah, I wondered about Mr.malty maybe being a bit too conservative. I have an ordinary bitter in the FV now and it has a massive yeast cake at the bottom - like a good 3 - 4 L of it from a 25 L batch. The smack pack was a few weeks old and it told me I needed a 1 L starter. It hit FG 3 days after pitching.....maybe I won't bother with a starter for such a low gravity brew next time, even if Mr.Malty says otherwise.


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## nathan_madness (14/6/13)

verysupple said:


> I just use a modified version of Ianh's spreadsheet. Your wheaties are great though, so whatever format you have them in I should be able to convert


I sent you some in a message. Hope that you got them. Also "manticle" is correct about step mashing, as for fermentation temps you could go to 18deg for more banana.


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## nathan_madness (14/6/13)

verysupple said:


> Yeah, I wondered about Mr.malty maybe being a bit too conservative. I have an ordinary bitter in the FV now and it has a massive yeast cake at the bottom - like a good 3 - 4 L of it from a 25 L batch. The smack pack was a few weeks old and it told me I needed a 1 L starter. It hit FG 3 days after pitching.....maybe I won't bother with a starter for such a low gravity brew next time, even if Mr.Malty says otherwise.


 Try http://www.yeastcalc.com


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## verysupple (14/6/13)

nathan_madness said:


> Try http://www.yeastcalc.com


I use that too sometimes. It uses the same equation as Mr.Malty (at least for the "intermitent shaking" option).


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## carniebrew (14/6/13)

I'll vote for the 17C fermentation, I've done a lot of weizen brews now, and without a shadow of a doubt the 3068 done at 17C is the best. I had it at 17 for a week, then 19 for another 10 days. I didn't intend to leave it in the FV all that long, but it worked out that way as I got busy with other stuff.

It's come out virtually identical to a commercial Weihenstephan dunkel, which is exactly what I was after. It was an extract brew with Briess' CBW Bavarian Wheat LME, so I can't offer anything on the mash process....not sure how to tell how Briess mash their wheat extract either.

It was a 13l batch, I used half a pack of 3068 in a 1.5l starter, pitching at around 80% of optimal cell count.


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## verysupple (14/6/13)

Thanks for the replies everyone. It sounds like step mashing/decocting might help, but I think there's something more fundamental going wrong than my mash schedule (FYI pH is fine so acid rest seems unnecessary). Unfortunately step mashes aren't so easy for me as I mash in a 19L BigW pot in my kitchen. Maybe I could do a decoction using my other BigW pot, but plenty of other people seem to have had success without a decoction. Anyone had success doing single infusion?


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## verysupple (14/6/13)

On the 17C ferment temp thing, I'm convinced that's the go.

Anyone else get heaps of sulphur at that temp? If not, maybe my wort is lacking a particular nutrient the yeast need or something.


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## manticle (14/6/13)

Ferulic acid rest pushes clove flavour. I'm not suggesting it to balance pH.

Decoction will help with bready flavours.

Do you not use nutrient?


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## verysupple (14/6/13)

manticle said:


> Ferulic acid rest pushes clove flavour. I'm not suggesting it to balance pH.
> 
> Decoction will help with bready flavours.
> 
> Do you not use nutrient?


Yeah, I use Wyeast nutrient. I'll try the ferulic acid rest once I sort some more important issues than lack of clove. Right now I think I should aim for proper mouthfeel/body and wheat flavour. Maybe I'll give a decoction a go next time.


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## manticle (14/6/13)

Step mashing will help with that too.


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## verysupple (14/6/13)

manticle said:


> Step mashing will help with that too.


Yup, understood. I think though with my setup a single (maybe double) decoction might be easier. Raising mash temp evenly in my 19L pot on the stove without burning the grain bag is a b*tch.


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## simplefisherman (14/6/13)

I haven't tried making a wheat without an acid rest, but after reading from a number of sources that it helps with the clove notes, it certainly seems to work in the ones I've made. May be a bit sacreligious, but I sneak about 200g of rolled oats ( in a 25l batch ) into the mash once it gets up to 65 deg (cook it first ) ,gives a lovely silky mouthfeel and nice lingering frothy head...mmm-good
Making me keen to put another down now.

Ed. I sub half of the Pils for munich malt as well, little bit of colour and nice maltiness.


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## manticle (14/6/13)

verysupple said:


> Yup, understood. I think though with my setup a single (maybe double) decoction might be easier. Raising mash temp evenly in my 19L pot on the stove without burning the grain bag is a b*tch.



Use a decoction to step mash.


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## Nick JD (14/6/13)

3068 is a skitzo bitch. Try 1214 (yeah, it's not a hefe yeast, but it makes a wicked, foolproof banana/clove beer) and you'll get something that tastes so suspiciously like Schneider's Weisse, you'll wonder why you ever bothered with 3068.

On the same topic, 3522 makes a better Wit IMO than Hoegaarden's strain.


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## pk.sax (14/6/13)

Tldr. I must be in the under pitching camp. Never made a starter. Decoction results brilliant. Single infusion no probs either. I like 3638 way better than 3068.
I also bottle/keg within a week of pitching. Your beer might simply be going stale in the fv In the extra week. This is Weiss specific advice. Drink young.


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## TidalPete (14/6/13)

You need to step mash or decoction as mentioned above & incorporate an Acid Rest at 42. If you want banana then ferment at 20-21 & use a blow-off tube.
Nobody has mentioned that Wheat yeasts do best when under-pitched & that you don't need to aerate the wort. 
I reckon you need to upgrade to 3-vessel AYEC verysupple. h34r:
Just my 2 cents.


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## Droughtmaster (14/6/13)

rather the bannana taste, clove reminds me of a tooth ache ,remember reading somewhere ferment temp on the warmer side like 21-22 c gives ya nanna i mainly use the krystal wheat yeast so only get tinges of them flavours mostly just a hint with aromatics as ya get ya mouthfull


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## NickB (14/6/13)

Yep, ferment 3068 at 20+ for big banana flavours. Add in an acid rest and ferment at 20+ and it'll be pretty nicely balanced IMHO!


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## carniebrew (15/6/13)

I did two back to back 3068 dunkels, the first at 23 degrees, the second at 17C. The first one was too tart, and while it threw plenty of banana aromas during fermentation, had stuff all aroma or flavour after bottling. The 17C version was perfect in every regard. So I guess 23 is too far on the warm side.


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## carniebrew (15/6/13)

I should mention that my 17C dunkel finished at 1018 (from a 1055 start), the highest FG I've bottled yet, but it gave it that thick/rich mouthfeel my previous weizens had been missing.


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## pk.sax (16/6/13)

Might help mentioning carnie that you are doing extracts. Affects the fg I reckon. For me, weizens finish fairly down. 1006 and thereabouts. I like them dry.


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## carniebrew (16/6/13)

I did, I even named the exact extract I used, back one page. But I've done half a dozen weizens with the same extract and had them come out as low as 1010. I used 350gm of spec grain in this 1018 gravity batch (13 litres remember), so that's probably got more to do with it. I was chasing a high FG.


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## pk.sax (17/6/13)

Cheers man. Went back and read the rest.

From the mouth of a commercial brewer I respect, use munich2 instead of pils malt. 50/50 with wheat malt and 3068. I've tried it and it definitely works. I did notice though that his wheat improved massively with age in kegs. Mine with 3638 were right a week from pitching and kegged.

Re acid rest on stovetop, if you have 2 pots, why not use infusion to raise temps. Actually, I used to just use the kitchen kettle for that. 2l of boiling water causes a fair rise in temp.


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## Screwtop (17/6/13)

Seems to be a little confusion re wheat beer styles in the posts above. Think the OP mentioned that he is wanting help with a Hefeweißbier the Southern or Bavarian style wheat beer.

Ferulic Acid rests and low FG's better suit production of the Northern Weizen style, dry and more clovey. 


Screwy


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## pk.sax (17/6/13)

Partially agree screwy. But have a read of this if it tickles your fancy. Pretty much what I feel about the beer too.

http://www.byo.com/stories/item/1574-weissbier


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## manticle (17/6/13)

Screwtop said:


> Seems to be a little confusion re wheat beer styles in the posts above. Think the OP mentioned that he is wanting help with a Hefeweißbier the Southern or Bavarian style wheat beer.
> 
> Ferulic Acid rests and low FG's better suit production of the Northern Weizen style, dry and more clovey.
> 
> ...


True but the OP also imtimated s/he wanted more clove.


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## Thefatdoghead (17/6/13)

More clove....You need to rest in the 40's for 4 vinal guiacole (clove) to be active in your wheat beer fermentation. Dont know what you OG and FG are but if the beer taste thin just up the SG/OG and try a mash schedule like 47/15,65/40,72,20. Hard to do with BIAB I suppose. 
Also keep your recipe and fermentation the same as what you have. 17 degrees is good for weinstafan.


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## carniebrew (17/6/13)

practicalfool said:


> Partially agree screwy. But have a read of this if it tickles your fancy. Pretty much what I feel about the beer too.
> 
> http://www.byo.com/stories/item/1574-weissbier


This seems to be a key point (from that linked article): "The compound most responsible for a hefeweizen’s signature flavor is a phenol."

I spent months chasing banana via high temps, until finally doing the 17C thing and nailing the flavour I was searching for. I still don't quite understand why it's considered 'clove', 'coz I've tried clove and it doesn't taste anything like a Weihenstephan weizen....but I'll take it.


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## pk.sax (18/6/13)

Dude, you've misread the article. Weihenstephan Weiss is a banana/phenol balance with more emphasis on banana. Not my favourite. At the dunkel strength though, the banana sweetness prominence is nicely cut by the alcohol and is one of my favourite dark beers.

Compare this to a schofferhoffer, it's a banana bomb. Monkey drink!

Schneider's variant of the yeast (3638) actually promotes phenols over banana. The result is a more spritzy summer beer than the weihenstephan. Phenols are also a part of the aroma.


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## pk.sax (18/6/13)

btw, there are many ways to skin the cat.

Slightly higher hop bitterness and drier FG can bring the same refreshing result as the phenolic bite does. Albeit, you'd have to use maltier grain, like Munich1/2. Then use a more neutral wheat beer yeast like the weihenstephan 3068. Or even, if I dare suggest, danstar Munich. Depends how estery you want it. Choose a suited temperature though.

The original recipe is an easier way though.


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## carniebrew (18/6/13)

practicalfool said:


> <snip> Weihenstephan Weiss is a banana/phenol balance with more emphasis on banana. Not my favourite. At the dunkel strength though, the banana sweetness prominence is nicely cut by the alcohol and is one of my favourite dark beers.
> 
> <snip>


I can't taste banana in Weihenstephan, but I don't think I'm all that good at identifying individual flavours within beers anyway. I guess if the banana is there, the fact the same overall flavour is brought out via a 17C fermentation of 3068 is interesting, given the insistence that esters are produced via higher ferment temps (and under pitching).

Anyway, it's been bloody good fun getting here, and now I've nailed it I'm moving on from hefeweiss beers over to Belgians....


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## verysupple (19/6/13)

Thanks again for all the advice everyone. I've done a bit of research over the last few days and think I may have found the main (probably not only) cause of my problems - pitching rate.

On the Wyeast website I found:


> High pitch rates can lead to:
> 
> Very low ester production
> Very fast fermentations
> ...


The first 3 of these points describe my experience very well.

Also, I was clearly overpitching these batches. I was pitching ~0.75 million cells / °P / mL (~9.25 million / mL for average weissbier) instead of 0.35 - 0.55 million cells / °P / mL (4 - 7 million / mL for average weissbier). These recommended rates for weissbiers were obtained from the "Yeast" book (White and Zainasheff), pro brewer tips in BYO magazine (http://byo.com/grains/item/329-brewing-with-wheat-tips-from-the-pros) and email conversations with Wyeast (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12789.20;wap2) and are for high viability and vitality cultures (such as a lab culture or well prepared starter). I remember reading a thread by Carnie where he wanted to underpitch his weissbiers. It turns out he was totally on the right track.

So while I'll probably attempt some of the mash schedules discussed here some time in the future, I think the first step for me is to pitch a more suitable amount of yeast which should help a great deal in terms of ester and phenol production and mouthfeel. According to the Yeast book, it may also reduce the amount of sulphur produced as well.

PS Just to be clear, I never wanted to accentuate either the banana or clove, I wanted a balanced profile. The problem was I was getting _no _profile at all.


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## carniebrew (19/6/13)

I reckon that would explain my lack of success with wb-06, I was probably significantly over-pitching the dry yeast. On both my recent 3068 dunkelweizens I pitched (1.055 OG) at a rate of about 7.5 million cells per ml, but as I said, only the batch fermented at 17C came out right, the 23C batch was very different.


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## verysupple (20/6/13)

carniebrew said:


> I reckon that would explain my lack of success with wb-06, I was probably significantly over-pitching the dry yeast. On both my recent 3068 dunkelweizens I pitched (1.055 OG) at a rate of about 7.5 million cells per ml, but as I said, only the batch fermented at 17C came out right, the 23C batch was very different.


Yeah, we probably _way _over-pitch the WB-06 if we pitch an entire packet. I used it back in my kit and extract days and never had success with it for weissbiers but it made a pretty decent witbier once. I guess the over-pitch didn't hurt the wit as much 'cause you want a wit that bit drier and the slight tartness suited really well. I can't remember the kit or ferm temps but that kit wit had some decent spiciness going on too.


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## carniebrew (20/6/13)

I did a couple of wb-06 batches around 19C, and as you say, they came out dry and tart. I then did a hefe with wb-06 at 23C, and it changed the profile significantly, smelled hugely like banana during fermentation, but lost it all after bottling. Was good to drink, but nothing at all like a commercial hefe.


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## Nick JD (20/6/13)

Isn't WB06 at Wit Bier yeast? Or would that make too much sense?

If it were called HW06 and had any banana whatsoever, I'd believe it ... but to me, it makes phenoly hoegaarden type beers.

I reckon it's a dry version of 3333 if it's a German yeast, otherwise, I reckon 3944 is its closest liquid analog.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (20/6/13)

WB = Wheat Banana.

Seriously, I got no banana with it and I was brewing in Qld spring. Lots of clove, but it lack a certain dimension. This is a type of beer where wet yeast is a must 3368 isn't bad, 3068 is the bombskies.


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## carniebrew (21/6/13)

Nick JD said:


> Isn't WB06 at Wit Bier yeast? Or would that make too much sense?
> 
> If it were called HW06 and had any banana whatsoever, I'd believe it ... but to me, it makes phenoly hoegaarden type beers.
> 
> I reckon it's a dry version of 3333 if it's a German yeast, otherwise, I reckon 3944 is its closest liquid analog.


I've seen plenty of conjecture over this, but nothing definitive. Fermentis say in their pdf "_Specialty yeast selected for wheat beer fermentations. Produces subtle estery and phenol flavor notes typical of wheat beers. Allows to brew beer __with a high drinkability profile and presents a very good ability to suspend during fermentation_."

But on the web page for Fermentis yeast it says: "_A speciality yeast selected for wheat beer fermentations. The yeast produces subtle estery and phenol flavour notes typical of wheat beers. *The choice of Wheat or Weizen bier fans*_"

So it sounds like the manufacturer intends it to make Weizen style beers, particularly given all the mentions of banana and clove. And as for the name, wouldn't WB just stand for "Wheat Beer"?


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## Nick JD (21/6/13)

Sounds like the manufacturer couldn't dry 3068.


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## verysupple (4/8/13)

I gave this style another try while taking on board everyone's advice...and have more questions.

So, this is what I did:

Stovetop BIAB

60 % Bestmalz pale wheat malt
30 % bestmalz pils malt
10 % Bestmalz dark Munich malt
German Perle - 60 min - 11 IBU
Wyeast 3068

OG: 1.051
FG: 1.016 (was aiming for 1.013)

Mash:
CaSO4 and CaCl2 to give 50 ppm Ca
Lactic acid to get a mash pH of 5.2
45 C - 20 min
63 C - 20 min
70 C - 40 min
76 C - 10 min

Dunk sparge 76 C for 10 min

I got 81 % eff. into the kettle...so that's a big improvement on my first 2 attempts described in my OP. I think I just needed to mash longer for the single infusions.

70 min boil:
60 min - Perle hops
10 min - Wyeast nutrient

Chilled to 17 C in ~1 hr
Aerated by shaking the FV for ~1 min.

Now this is where my new questions start...
I was aiming to pitch 0.4 million cells / mL / P which for an OG of 1.051 is about 5 million / mL. I came to this pitch rate after researching quite thoroughly appropriate rates for weissbiers. Because I got way better efficiency, I pitched about 0.35 million cells / mL / P ...close enough.

I made a 600 mL starter which I calculated the size of based on the average of the viabilities calculated by Mr.Malty and Yeastcalc. The smack pack was just over 3 months old so I used a viability of 39 %...

I pitched at 17 C and let free rise to 20 C. Just like before, I got _heaps _of hydrogen sulphide during day 2 and by the end of day 3 fermentation was finished. I let it sit at 20 C for a couple of days and then conditioned at 7 C for 9 days.

I thought fermenting at a slightly higher temp would not stress the yeast as much and hopefully not give the sulphur, and also give me more esters. Well that didn't work. I've taken samples to taste every couple of days throughout fermentation and conditioning and it tastes the same as my first 2 attempts - no esters, some phenolics but not at all balanced and tastes kind of "dirty" (I really can't think of a better way to describe it). I won't know if the body is better till after it's carbed up.

Could the "dirtiness" I'm tasting be simply an unbalanced phenolic/ester profile? Or is it more likely to be because the yeast was old and just spewed out a bunch of crap? The starter smelled pretty bad, actually, so that wasn't a good sign I guess.

I've had a lengthy email conversation with someone from Wyeast and they can't see anything glaringly wrong with my processes, and the final recommendation was to just direct pitch a smack pack next time and see if that helps. I'm hesitant to do that though because it was underattenuated this time and if i direct pitch that'll be an even lower pitch rate. Thoughts on direct pitching? (I don't want to open another can of worms with that question *caugh* Ducatiby Stu *caugh* so let's please keep it related to this specific situation  )

Cheers everyone and sorry for the lengthy post, I just really want to get to the bottom of this.


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## Adr_0 (4/8/13)

I've done two hefeweizens in the last couple of months. The first was a 57/64/73/77 mash with 3333 fermented at 22°C (fridge temperature) and a standard 1L starter into 32L of 1.048. Aeration to the wort was just in the drain into the fermenter and I would say it was fairly good but I didn't use a stone for aeration. According to Brewers Friend, my pitching rate was about 0.32. Very sulphury coming out of the primary, but a week in secondary knocked it all out. Not a super-strong banana but was definitely there and little clove. Reasonably dry, lovely bready/wheaty flavour but disappeared quickly.

Latest was very similar, instead a 43/58/62/71/76 mash (infusion! put me in a straight jacket...), again with 3333 but fermented at 19°C. Starter was 1.5L on the stir plate, volume was 50L and pitching rate was about 0.53. A very slight hint of sulphur, but 3 weeks after brewing it is ridiculous: spritzy, clovey, fruit and bready wheaty flavours, but still dry and dangerously drinkable.

Doing BIAB, as you have said you will struggle with step mashes. Can you at least do a protein rest? I was going to focus initially on figuring out why you don't that lovely wheat malt taste, and was going to ask if you did a mash out in your batch or complete conversion, and did you top up with DME at all. You may have initially gotten the extraction you needed, and it was also masked by some off flavours in the beer.

Can you describe the 'dirty' taste? Is it a minerally taste or a sulphur-based taste? How old is the beer?


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## verysupple (4/8/13)

Thanks Adr_0, I did a direct fired step mash with no probs - ferulic acid rest, beta-amylase rest, alpha-amylase rest, then mash out. I skipped the protein rest because all the malts I used are highly modified. According to my calcs I got 89 % conversion efficiency and 91 % lautering efficiency - 81 % into kettle. I do a concentrated boil and then top up with water (no DME) in the fermentor.

I just took another sample to taste. The smell is actually more "dirty" than the flavour and is kind of minerally, maybe a hint of sulphur left. The taste is actually OK until right at the end when I get that minerally hint along with something kind of harsh at the back of my mouth.


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## Adr_0 (4/8/13)

I assume your gear is clean as a whistle and sanitised... 

Water? Done a pH check or water analysis?


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## verysupple (4/8/13)

Yup, sanitation must be OK because the ordinary bitter and APA that I did inbetween were fine.

I just use the average values from the latest water report. I measure mash pH using strips from the LHBS and hit 5.2 (room temp).

One other thing I didn't mention is that I've never had rediculous krausen - only ever a few cm even though the batches ferment out in like 3 days. Could all my problems just be from unhealthy yeast?

Anyway, I'm thinking that next time I'll keep everything as simple as possible to try to eliminate possible problems. I'll pretend I never learned a bunch of things and brew it like I would have when I first started AG (seeing as my extract weissbiers were actually OK).

No yeast starter
No water treatment
No yeast nutrients
No extra aeration - just stir to mix wort and top up water
No messing with ferment temp - just pitch at the desired temp and let the STC-1000 do the rest
However, I'll keep the step mash because I still had the problems with single infusion.


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## Adr_0 (4/8/13)

I usually agree with simplification, but don't totally throw everything out the window. Get to the root of the problem and identify where the gap is for getting the beer to how you want it. The crux of this is to absolutely understand the function of each change/addition and how/why it will get you to the beer you want; when you understand its purpose/role in the beer you are making, THEN do it and try and measure the results if you can. The fully modified (i.e. no protein enzymes left) malts you used would have zero purpose resting at protein temperatures, so good call there.

I haven't used pH strips but let's assume your mash was actually 5.2. How did you get there with the malt bill you have? I haven't seen an analysis from Melbourne, but I understand most areas are fairly soft. I got a hardness and alkalinity test kit and measured the point I draw my water from. Hardness was bang in the middle of the range on most of the sample literature for Brisbane, but alkalinity was a touch high. Of my 10kg of grain for a wheat, 350g is sour/acidulated malt and I chuck in just a bit of calcium sulphate to help it along a bit further to the 5.4 range.

So, what is your sulphate, alkalinity and hardness, and how are you adjusting your mash to get pH 5.2 (assuming it actually is)?

EDIT: Added additional rambling(s) to first paragraph.


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## verysupple (4/8/13)

Oops, just realised I said pH 5.2 at room temp when I meant mash temp.

I use the EZ water spreadsheet.

Starting water (ppm):
Ca: 5
Mg: 2 
Na: 8
Cl: 12
SO4: 3
HCO3: 12

12 L water (L:G) 2.667:1
2.7 kg Wheat malt
1.8 kg Pils malt

Additions:
1 g CaSO4
2 g CaCl2
1.5 mL 88% lactic acid

To give:
Ca: 69
Mg: 2 
Na: 8
Cl: 92
SO4: 49

Calculated mash pH at room temp: 5.71
I measured it 15 min into the sacc rest to be ~ 5.2 at mash temp.


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## Adr_0 (4/8/13)

Can't comment on the strips - which brand are you using? - but I hear there is typically some systematic error. To be honest, I think you are probably fine with pH but don't ignore the big variability in alkalinity. Bris is meant to be 44-120 and 97 is the 95th percentile... sure enough, my three tests came up at 97.

Just checking... what was your water volume? You have 12L there but think that might have been a typo? 81% with 4.5kg is quite a hefty weizen... More below.

Anyway, on its own you're probably fine - though I would still look into your alkalinity - but if you combined it with a high sparge temp and/or highish water/mash ratio it could add up to astringency which some might consider minerally...

Otherwise, maybe hops (probably not) or sanitation... or over-sanitation? Didn't leave any bleach in there did you?

Have a quick look at these and see if anything jumps out.
http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Any finally... give it a few more days?


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## Adr_0 (5/8/13)

Be positive. Why don't you go through that list and see which one jumps out?

I also think you should get one of these:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Aquarium-Marine-Reef-Red-Sea-Marine-Care-pH-Alkalinity-Test-Kit-/181187921544?pt=AU_Pet_Supplies&hash=item2a2fa44688&_uhb=1

or similar. The hardness and alkalinity in most test kits is in degrees (e.g. 4.5) which should not be confused with ppm. I only say you should test because of the big sweep of values in Melbourne - you have easily a 0.2pH swing depending on which end of the scale you're at, and considering carbonate is a buffer you will have to add proportionally more calcium if you are high in carbonate. The Colorphast strips systematically measure 0.3pH low (i.e. measured 5.2, actual is 5.5). But again, not sure which ones you are using.

And old yeast pack isn't the greatest, but unless you had an infection in the starter or it was too high a temp for the yeast it shouldn't be an issue. You still have to grow it up of course. Do you use a stir plate or a standard starter?


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## verysupple (6/8/13)

Thanks for all the help Adr_0. I don't think water chem is actually my problem...but it can't hurt to simplify things a bit anyway.

I'm doing a little experiment at the moment. I made a simple 1.5 L extract batch (barley - didn't have any wheat DME on hand) and hopped to about 12 IBU. Nothing else, not even nutrient, just boiled up the DME and hops in plain tap water. I then shook it up to oxygenate and pitched 10 mL of loose yeast slurry (according to Mr.Malty that should be about 0.75 million cells / mL / P) from the batch I bottled right before the experiment. It's fermenting in the fridge with my bottles while they carb up at 24 C. It has a nice dense creamy krausen and it smells delicious! Nice and fruity with no sign of sulphur. So the yeasties seem healthy enough.

However, this experiment didn't really help me much. The only thing that jumps out at me is that it smells great when fermenting at 24 C....which everyone says is way too hot for 3068.


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## Adr_0 (6/8/13)

Yeah, I could totally be barking up the wrong tree but it's important to rule it out as an issue.

Have you identified the exact off-flavour yet? As it gone after a couple of days?


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## verysupple (6/8/13)

I haven't tried the latest one since I bottled it on Sunday, but the first 2 (and this one seems the same so far) I think the off flavour was probably just the sulphur. They stopped smelling like rotten egg pretty quickly but I figure they taste probably stuck around a bit longer. The main problem was that there wasn't any esters or much in the way of phenolics giving that typical weissbier character and the sulphur was over powering the small amount that was there. By the time the sulphur went away, so did the _good_ flavours. 

I've just developed (in the last 10 min) a theory as to what's going on. Everyone says to ferment these at about 17 C, but how are they measuring the temp? A lot of people have their probes stuck to the side of the fermenter with some insulation over the top. Wyeast 3068 ferments like crazy though, so maybe even with the insulation the beer temp is actually a few degrees warmer. I have my probe _in _the beer. Maybe I just need to ferment warmer (like my experiment is).


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## Adr_0 (6/8/13)

There you go, think you've got it.  Temperature is such a tough one for wheats.

I hear that's a bit of a sticking point with 3068 - that by the time the sulphur fades, so do the phenols. Or was it esters? I used it once years ago (8+...) but was more impressed with 3333 (that's just me though). I may try 3068 again at some point. Or as Nick said, try 1214.

I have about 25L of 3333 (beer fermented with...) that I've dropped out and replaced with 34/70 to do a bit of a 'shelf life' trial. I just have to know for myself. There is of course a risk that the 34/70 will chew phenols - or esters - and will change the flavour profile, but will it do it more or less than keeping the 3333 in there? Only one way to find out...


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## carniebrew (6/8/13)

verysupple said:


> I've just developed (in the last 10 min) a theory as to what's going on. Everyone says to ferment these at about 17 C, but how are they measuring the temp? A lot of people have their probes stuck to the side of the fermenter with some insulation over the top. Wyeast 3068 ferments like crazy though, so maybe even with the insulation the beer temp is actually a few degrees warmer. I have my probe _in _the beer. Maybe I just need to ferment warmer (like my experiment is).


Could be onto something there, certainly all my recent successes with 3068 have been at 17C with my stc-1000 probe stuck to the side of the fermenter, under a piece of stubby holder.


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