# Using Rice In A Summer Pale Ale.



## T.D. (27/10/05)

Hi all,

In 2 weeks I will be brewing my Christmas Ale - a beer designed specifically with "lazing by the pool on a hot Australian summer's day" in mind. It will be light in colour, and alcohol (~4%). At the moment my recipe is as follows:

Batch Size: 27 litres
Biterness: 28 IBUs
Colour: 6.5 EBC

2kg JW Ale malt
2.5kg JW Pilsner malt
200g Carapils
25g Northern Brewer @ 60mins
25g Amarillo @ 10 mins
25g Amarillo @ flameout
WLP008 - East Coast Ale yeast

I was just reading up on the use of rice in light summer lagers. Since I am aiming for a light "sessional" summer *ale* with this brew, would anybody recommend using 0.5-1kg of flaked rice in place of some of the base malt? If so, will this contribute the same amount of fermentables as the malted barley? That is, if I add 1kg of flaked rice, should I simply take away 1kg of the base malt?

This is the first time I have ever even thought about actually using rice in a beer. Would anybody recommend it for the style I am going for?

Cheers :beer:


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## warrenlw63 (27/10/05)

TD

Sounds really good. Yes, just substitute equal amounts of flaked rice or maize in lieu of the pale malt.

Probably only 1 thing I'd do would be to halve the CaraPils. :beerbang: If you're looking for a lighter body this will help.

Also if it were me I'd cut both Amarillo additions to 15g if you decide to use the rice. 

Enjoy the beer.

Warren -


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## T.D. (27/10/05)

Thanks Warren, sounds like good advice.

I am shooting for a level of "hoppiness" similar to James Squire Golden Ale. So would you recommend cutting the additions to 15g only if I use the rice, or for both rice and all-barley options?

Thanks :beer:


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## warrenlw63 (27/10/05)

TD

Just for the rice version. This will thin out or "mute" the body. Would probably be wise to lower the hop flavour/aroma accordingly. 

Warren -


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## Zwickel (27/10/05)

Hello homebrewer,

@T.D.

Ive made a similar beer, supposed to be a Corona Clone, but in the end it became much better then any Corona.

What I intended to produce is similar to your idea, a blond summer-beer, light in alcohol and color.

perhaps you may fetch some infos out of my recipe to create your own ones.

what I got has been a little bit different, yes it was blond and yes it has a light color, but in the end it had 5,35%Vol. alcohol.
therefore I call it being a "Pretender"
pretends to be a light beer, but after two bottles of it .... :beerbang: 

how did I brew it:

6 kg Pilsener Malt
3 kg Corn (Mais)
2 kg Rice

take the whole Rice and Corn and boil it for 20min in 20Liter of water to wash out the starch.
then add another 20Liter of cold Water and cool it to achieve around 52C.

then mash in the 6kg Pilsener malt at 52C and rest for 30minutes,
then rise the temp to 63C and rest for 90minutes (allow the enzymes to do theire work)
next rest at 72C for 45min.
go to 78 for 20min. and finish.

sparge twice with about 20Liters, means 40Liters of Water.

Now youll have approx. 72 Liter of wort.

you may add 100g Hallertauer Pearl 5% at start to boil and boil it for 90minutes.

In the end youll have around 65 Litres of Wort at SG 1048.
let me remark, that I got the same SG as I have used pure Pilsener malt.

Ferment it with low-temp-fermenting yeast (Pilsener).
the attenuation will be higher then with Pilsener, it reached down to 1008(7), therefore 5,35% alcohol.

have fun


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## T.D. (27/10/05)

Thanks Zwickel, certainly some interesting info there! Interesting that using rice/corn will provide a more attenuable wort (I never thought of the signature "dryness" that these ingredients add in this way - I just thought it mean a drier flavour), but that's quite important info to have since I want my brew to be relatively light in alcohol to allow plenty of consumption (may have to back off on the OG accordingly)! :chug: 

Thanks again.


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## barfridge (27/10/05)

Asher is the king of ricey beers. His classic american pilsner is a wonderful summer beer (that is when you don't feel like getting wired on caffeine with the green tea lager).


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## johnno (28/10/05)

Or you can be like me that gets bad efficiency.
I am currently drinking some 2 APA's that had a low efficiency.
Cam out a nice light straw colour. Quite thin bodied at about 4% alc.
Tatse delicious. You can drink them all day.
I love those amarillo's.
and cascade.

johnno


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## warrenlw63 (28/10/05)

Johnno.

Were you using rice or corn? :unsure: 

Just wondering what caused the low efficiency.

BTW Amarillo rules the world. Got to get myself some more. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## johnno (28/10/05)

Hi Warren.
Nah I wasnt using rice or corn.
I think I have to work on my strike and batch temps.
Still a top drop.


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## T.D. (28/10/05)

Johnno,

Funny you should bring up low efficiency for your Amarillo APA - I recently brewed exactly the same type of beer and got crap efficiency as well (69% - usually get between 75 and 80%). I think its is potentially the best beer I have ever brewed! Weird how that kind of thing happens sometimes.


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## Ross (28/10/05)

TD, I don't think you need rice or corn in a summer ale - I just brewed this one - really spicy & refreshing, so moorish.... :chug: 

Carbrook Summer Ale
Type: All Grain
Date: 17/09/2005 
Batch Size: 26.00 L
Brewer: Ross 
Boil Size: 37.72 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: My Equipment 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
6.20 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 100.0 % 
20.00 gm Horizon [12.00%] (15 min) Hops 11.8 IBU 
15.00 gm Challenger [7.00%] (80 min) Hops 11.0 IBU 
20.00 gm Challenger [7.00%] (15 min) Hops 6.9 IBU 
10.00 gm Horizon [12.00%] (5 min) Hops 2.4 IBU 
15.00 gm Challenger [7.00%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 2.2 IBU 
15.00 gm Challenger [7.00%] (5 min) Hops 2.1 IBU 
5.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (5 min) Hops 0.8 IBU 
20.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (20 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 
20.00 gm Challenger [7.00%] (20 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 
1.00 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Table Salt (Boil 90.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) Yeast-Ale 



Beer Profile

Measured Original Gravity: 1.057 SG 
Measured Final Gravity: 1.015 SG 
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.5 % 
Bitterness: 37.3 IBU Calories: 540 cal/l 
Est Color: 5.1 SRM Color: Color 
Mash at 65c - Batch sparge


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## T.D. (28/10/05)

Looks good Ross. Yeah, I think I will stick to the regular barley malt. I will cut the carapils back a bit though, as Warren recommended. I might aim for a mash temp of 65-ish degrees too.

I have noticed some of your recently posted recipes have favoured a lot of small hop additions as opposed to just a few larger additions. Have you found this to be a more even and balanced hopping technique? I have a beer tentatively planned soon which I will try and put 1g/L of hops in using each different hopping method. It will probably be all challenger (I have quite a bit a bit of it inb the freezer!). I'll do an addition for Mash Hop, FWH, Flavour (20mins), Flavour (10mins), Aroma steep, Dry Hop, and Hop Tea. Should be pretty interesting.


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## raven19 (13/8/09)

Nothing like dragging up a four year old thread  
I am keen to give this one a go though, and then let the missus drink it (it was at her request)! :lol: 

Forgive the long post...

Questions from this post in *bold*:
--------------extract Zwickel's post--------------
6 kg Pilsener Malt 
3 kg Corn (Mais) *I am a bloke, and have never seen corn (apart from in tin cans and on the cob) for sale in Woolies. Or am I not looking in the right places. Can it be bought similar to lentils as dried in packets on the shelf? Other?*
2 kg Rice *plain white rice I presume?*
take the whole Rice and Corn and boil it for 20min in 20Liter of water to wash out the starch.
then add another 20Liter of cold Water and cool it to achieve around 52C.
*then leave the liquid and rice/corn in the kettle/mast tun?*
then mash in the 6kg Pilsener malt at 52C and rest for 30minutes, *add the malt to the rice/corn/water 52 deg mix?
*then rise the temp to 63C and rest for 90minutes (allow the enzymes to do theire work)
next rest at 72C for 45min.
go to 78 for 20min. and finish.
sparge twice with about 20Liters, means 40Liters of Water.
Now youll have approx. 72 Liter of wort.
you may add 100g Hallertauer Pearl 5% at start to boil and boil it for 90minutes.
In the end youll have around 65 Litres of Wort at SG 1048.
let me remark, that I got the same SG as I have used pure Pilsener malt.
Ferment it with low-temp-fermenting yeast (Pilsener).
*suggestions for type of yeast please?*

*Other questions:* 
can I drain off the 'wort' from the corn/rice and use that in my MT with the pilsner malt?

Then ditch the corn/rice? Or does the rice and corn have to stay in the mash?

Would like to know more about the goodness (fermentables, etc) from this rice/corn, further to this thread.

And do I need to crush the corn and rice?

Please forgive my ignorance on these ingredients outside of grain and hops...

(I just went to check Craftbrewer's site for 'flaked corn' or similar, and some clown has hacked into it. I shall PM you Ross on this now too).

Again forgive the longness of this post.


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## Zwickel (14/8/09)

Hello raven,



raven19 said:


> *I am a bloke, and have never seen corn (apart from in tin cans and on the cob) for sale in Woolies. Or am I not looking in the right places. Can it be bought similar to lentils as dried in packets on the shelf? Other?*


you may get corn as semolina, trade name "Polenta" ? Im not sure where to get it in Australia. Over here one can get a sack of corn as chicken food.
Should be crashed, but not too fine.



> 2 kg Rice *plain white rice I presume?*



yeah, plain white rice. It was the cheapest one I could get.
I used the rice uncrashed, just as it is.



> *then leave the liquid and rice/corn in the kettle/mast tun?*



Boil the water first, then add the rice and corn, that will result in a very stiff paste/pulp, just let it simmer for a while, avoid scorching.
Add another 20l of cold water to it, so the temp will drop to 52C ( add as much cold water as it needs to get there)
then mash in the 6kg Pilsener malt at 52C and rest for 30minutes,



> *add the malt to the rice/corn/water 52 deg mix?*


*
yeah, now you have everything in the mash tun.

*


> then rise the temp to 63C and rest for 90minutes (allow the enzymes to do theire work)
> next rest at 72C for 45min.


may be you have to extend the rest times a little bit to achieve iodine neutrality



> *suggestions for type of yeast please?*


any bottom fermenting yeast should do the job, Ive used an ordinary pilsener yeast. 



> *Other questions:*
> can I drain off the 'wort' from the corn/rice and use that in my MT with the pilsner malt?


No, dont do that, you need the starch that is in the grain.


> Then ditch the corn/rice? Or does the rice and corn have to stay in the mash?


as Ive said



> Would like to know more about the goodness (fermentables, etc) from this rice/corn, further to this thread.


as I wrote, I got as much starch out of the grain as I usually get when Im using pure malt.

I have to remark, lautering that stuff is a pain in the arse.

....and you need a sufficient stirrer  

have fun


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## Bribie G (14/8/09)

I regularly use 500g of polenta boiled to a mush, as an adjunct in 'golden' and UK ales. For Australian lagers likewise with 500g rice. Gives a nice smoothness and seems to produce a clearer beer, probalby uses up enzymes and proteins that would otherwise hang around and cause hazes. Polenta about two dollars for a bag at IGA, black and gold brand.


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## Zwickel (14/8/09)

BribieG said:


> I regularly use 500g of polenta boiled to a mush, as an adjunct in 'golden' and UK ales. For Australian lagers likewise with 500g rice. Gives a nice smoothness and seems to produce a clearer beer, probalby uses up enzymes and proteins that would otherwise hang around and cause hazes. Polenta about two dollars for a bag at IGA, black and gold brand.


yeah, thats right, the beer clears pretty well, after one week it has been cleared almost like a filtered one.

Maybe for you Aussiebrewer its a little bit hard to do step mash like I do.

So why not to brew it your normal way? for a 25l batch I could imagine, to boil 1kg polenta and 500g rice in around 8 litres of water (put the rice and corn into boiling water to avoid scorching)

Then add cold water, leave a little space for the malt, to reach 66C and add the pilsener malt, so the mash tun could be full.

Just keep the 66C until iodine test shows neutral (could take 90min ore more).

mash out.

Sparge to your desired OG.

Boil the wort for at least 60min., take a little bit aroma hops at begin of the boil.

Since the Corona beer doesnt taste after hops, not at all, it doesnt matter what kind of hops youre using, just calculate it to around 15 IBU.

Some people say, Corona contains no hops at all  

I gotta say, I love that beer, especially in Summertime. But it is really a pretender, looks light, tastes light, but it has a lot of spin (alc).

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## raven19 (14/8/09)

Awesome thanks for the followup there Zwickel, greatly appreciated!

Polenta eh BribieG !!!! why didnt I think of that.

I am thinking I shall do the corn/rice mash on the stove in a big pot then move it all to the MT (esky) for the following stages.

Cant wait to try it!

Cheers!!!


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## raven19 (21/11/09)

It took a few months, but finally followed up on Zwickel's Corona, into the no chill cubes:

Recipe: 12 Zwickel's better than Corona

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 25.00 L 
Boil Size: 35.42 L
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 3.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 18.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 74.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.00 kg Pilsner (2.0 SRM) Grain 72.73 % 
0.90 kg Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 16.36 % 
0.60 kg Rice, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 10.91 % 
15.00 gm Styrian Goldings [4.80 %] (90 min) Hops 7.9 IBU 
15.00 gm Hallertau [6.30 %] (90 min) Hops 10.4 IBU 
0.47 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Pilsen Lager (Wyeast Labs #2007) Yeast-Lager 


Mash Schedule: *** Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 5.50 kg
----------------------------
*** Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash In Add 14.33 L of water at 74.4 C 67.8 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 8.03 L of water at 91.5 C 75.6 C 


Notes:
------
Low Temp Pilsner Yeast required

Mash in 2.50pm at 63 deg
Preboil 38L at 8 Brix
SG 12 Brix approx 26L


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## raven19 (20/5/10)

Version 2 of this I made a while ago now, has been lagering and had a sampling tonight.

Zwickel's Corona Mk II
Style: German Pilsner (Pils)
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 28.00 L 
Boil Size: 37.84 L
Estimated OG: 1.042 SG
Estimated Color: 3.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 29.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.20 kg Pilsner (2.0 SRM) Grain 54.70 % 
0.90 kg Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 15.38 % 
0.80 kg Vienna (3.5 SRM) Grain 13.68 % 
0.50 kg Rice, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 8.55 % 
0.45 kg Carapils (4.0 SRM) Grain 7.69 % 

30 IBU (60 min addition only) with Czech Saaz & WP833 Yeast slurry.

mash 63


Bit of a late bitterness aftertaste on the pallette, but after lagering and filtering - not too bad for my first lager.


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## ledgenko (20/5/10)

I have been using rice in most of my beers be it a Lager or Ale with awesome results. The flavour characterisitics when using Jasmine rice instead of plain long grain is evident in both challenging and non challenging beers. I have also had good results with the use of oats. Great mouth feel and flavour. Not 10 sure of the use of corn however would never rule it out ;-) .. Beer is in my opinion completely pliable and the different flavours and experinece that can be created by the use of ?? odd additions is sometimes very successful... but then again potentially horendous too.. 

Matt


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## Nashmandu (20/5/10)

Jesus christ. If you want a light beer just brew with pale malt and/or pilsener malt and keep hopping low. rice/corn etc are cost cutting methods.


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## np1962 (20/5/10)

Nashmandu said:


> Jesus christ. If you want a light beer just brew with pale malt and/or pilsener malt and keep hopping low. rice/corn etc are cost cutting methods.



:huh:  :angry: Beer Snobbery makes me ill.


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## manticle (20/5/10)

While modern commercial breweries may use them as such (although likely they use them as much to lighten body without sacrificing alcohol) both rice and corn have a very long history in grain based fermented beverages.

Bit of a sweeping statement


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## Zwickel (21/5/10)

Nashmandu said:


> snip.... rice/corn etc are cost cutting methods.



hmmm...over here:

1kg of Pilsener malt cost ~ 50 Euro Cent.
1 kg Polenta cost ~ 1.49 Euro
1 kg of cheapest rice, cost ~ 2 Euro

is it really a cost cutting method ?

:icon_cheers:


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## raven19 (21/5/10)

NigeP62 said:


> :huh:  :angry: Beer Snobbery makes me ill.



+1. I really enjoy trying out new ingredients, and seeing what they bring to a beer.


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## under (21/5/10)

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 5 - BribieG's Lager
Brewer: under-
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Lite American Lager
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 27.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 5.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 21.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.00 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.Grain 80.00 % 
0.50 kg Rice, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 10.00 % 
14.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [10.10 %] (75 min) (FirHops 16.9 IBU 
15.00 gm Saaz [8.00 %] (10 min) Hops 4.1 IBU 
0.50 kg Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 10.00 % 


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 4.50 kg

Or you can leave out the rice and do this - 

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 6 - Kiwi Blonde (Mark)
Brewer: under-
Asst Brewer: 
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 27.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.041 SG
Estimated Color: 10.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 18.9 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.50 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.Grain 88.16 % 
0.35 kg Carahell (Weyermann) (25.6 EBC) Grain 8.82 % 
0.12 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 3.02 % 
15.00 gm Motueka [6.80 %] (75 min) (First Wort HopHops 13.5 IBU 
10.00 gm Motueka [6.80 %] (15 min) Hops 3.9 IBU 
10.00 gm Motueka [6.80 %] (5 min) Hops 1.6 IBU 


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 3.97 kg


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## under (21/5/10)

The Kiwi Blonde is a recipe I got off (mje1980). Its a light, tasty ale around 4% and a bloody summer cracker. 

Another nice drop out of the recipe database is Fents cream ale, based on Jamils recipe. Goes down good with the swill drinkers.


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## Nashmandu (25/5/10)

NigeP62 said:


> :huh:  :angry: Beer Snobbery makes me ill.


 
Beer snobbery? hah


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## Nashmandu (25/5/10)

manticle said:


> While modern commercial breweries may use them as such (although likely they use them as much to lighten body without sacrificing alcohol) both rice and corn have a very long history in grain based fermented beverages.
> 
> Bit of a sweeping statement




i disagree. Grapes also have a long history of use in fermented beverages, as do apples and many other things. but as far as i know there isnt any style of beer that has corn or rice in it...the germans dont use it, eastern europe doesnt, england doesnt, the monks dont...however, budweisser do, corona do etc

Ps i didnt say you cant use it, i said it is unessecary, which is in my opinion 98.66% (bradmans average) correct.


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## barneyb (25/5/10)

Asian styled lagers often use rice. Asahi, Sapporo, Kirin, Tsingtao, Chang (not the exported kind though)...the list goes on.


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## Nashmandu (25/5/10)

Zwickel said:


> hmmm...over here:
> 
> 1kg of Pilsener malt cost ~ 50 Euro Cent.
> 1 kg Polenta cost ~ 1.49 Euro
> ...



Although i find those figure slightly strange, they are really missing the point. The point is kg of grain to abv. Getting the required alcohol with the least amount of grain. As you know the fermentable from rice are converted almost entirely to alcohol..


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## Nashmandu (25/5/10)

barneyb said:


> Asian styled lagers often use rice. Asahi, Sapporo, Kirin, Tsingtao, Chang (not the exported kind though)...the list goes on.



Traditonal styles? rice is used in asia because its cheap and convenient...this just proves my point.


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## Nick JD (25/5/10)

Those who think rice isn't nice in a beer should add it to their beer! I've added up to 30% and can't fault it's presence. Only good things come from using rice IMO, except the hassle of cooking it up first. I wish I could just grind it with the grain....


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## Scruffy (25/5/10)

Our Westphalian cousins haven't traditionally used rice on account of the rarity of paddy fields in Germany (guess what the most common adjunct is in Asia?).

You use what you got, innit.

We've now got Coles and Woolies (and Bribie has Aldi), and Flanneries and all manner of starch boutiques. Anyone for a Chestnut and mung bean Lite?

Never tried it personally, (brewing with rice that is), but appreciate the benefits: a milder ferment without the graininess - bloody useful if you want to showcase a hop, or just upping the alcohol - for example(s).


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## Nick JD (25/5/10)

Scruffy said:


> a milder ferment without the graininess - bloody useful if you want to showcase a hop, or just upping the alcohol - for example(s).



It also imparts a really nice flavour that's difficult to describe if used in diastatic-pushing amounts. Bribie calls it "creamed rice" and I agree, but a better way I think to describe it I found the other day: if you keep your rice in a container, put your nose in the container and sniff - you get a faintly-sweet, fudge, vanilla smell. Sniff a bag/container of rice!


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## RobW (25/5/10)

Nashmandu said:


> i disagree. Grapes also have a long history of use in fermented beverages, as do apples and many other things. but as far as i know there isnt any style of beer that has corn or rice in it...the germans dont use it, eastern europe doesnt, england doesnt, the monks dont...however, budweisser do, corona do etc
> 
> Ps i didnt say you cant use it, i said it is unessecary, which is in my opinion 98.66% (bradmans average) correct.




How about CAP?

....and Bradman's average is 99.94


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## Snow (25/5/10)

Nashmandu said:


> Jesus christ. If you want a light beer just brew with pale malt and/or pilsener malt and keep hopping low. rice/corn etc are cost cutting methods.


What a rubbish statement. Spoken by someone who has obviously not brewed with rice or corn. These adjuncts definitely add a textural lightness and a flavour that you don't achieve with barley malt. They have their place in the brewing of good beer just as much as any other ingredient.

- Snow.


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## Nashmandu (25/5/10)

Snow said:


> What a rubbish statement. Spoken by someone who has obviously not brewed with rice or corn. These adjuncts definitely add a textural lightness and a flavour that you don't achieve with barley malt. They have their place in the brewing of good beer just as much as any other ingredient.
> 
> - Snow.




You guys are such a bunch of girls. You all band together to declare ppls comments 'outrageous and simply incorrect' 

ps why arent you guys at work?


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## RobW (25/5/10)

quote name='Nashmandu' date='May 25 2010, 03:31 PM' post='635573']
You guys are such a bunch of girls. You all band together to declare ppls comments 'outrageous and simply incorrect' 

ps why arent you guys at work?
[/quote]


Go away



[


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## Bribie G (25/5/10)

Nashmandu said:


> i disagree. Grapes also have a long history of use in fermented beverages, as do apples and many other things. but as far as i know there isnt any style of beer that has corn or rice in it...the germans dont use it, eastern europe doesnt, england doesnt, the monks dont...however, budweisser do, corona do etc
> 
> Ps i didnt say you cant use it, i said it is unessecary, which is in my opinion 98.66% (bradmans average) correct.



Ok settle down nashie and listen. Rice and corn were used extensively in American and British beers starting in the middle of the Nineteenth Century, for two reasons:

UK: the use of the new artificial fertilisers produced high nitrogen barleys that were giving persistent hazes in beers, and that at a time when glassware was becoming cheaper and ordinary drinkers - and pubs - could afford to buy glass. So the appearance and clarity of the beer became important. Grain adjuncts could use up the 'diastatic power' of the malt and prevent the hazes, as well as producing a lighter bodied beer such as the "running beers" of the early 20th century that developed into modern bitters and milds.

USA: similarly, as the Americans adopted lagers as opposed to ales, their six row barley could not by itself produce clear beers similar to the Pilseners and pale Lagers of Europe. They needed to use a fair amount of grain adjunct ... rice from Louisiana and maize from the Midwest, to wrestle a good clear beer from the high protein malts available to them.


So nashie there's two styles for you, and yes the UK did use a lot of rice and corn until modern highly modified malts such as Maris Otter were developed after the Second World War. They tend to use brewing sugars nowadays to keep their beers "in style".

Keep hanging around the forum, do some reading, and you'll learn some background, as I have myself.

Cheers
:icon_cheers:


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## boobiedazzler (25/5/10)

To leave off from this silly argument for a moment

Can someone comment on why flaked rice is preferred on this forum over plain old edible rice from the supermarket, suck as Zwickle mentions. I'm planning on making a light-bodied Aussie ale driven by POR as a house beer that can be repeated often for my unadventurous friends and family. My only experience with it (a cautious 250 grams) to date is still fermenting so no idea what it will add to the finished brew. 

On a similar note, what's the fermentability calculation for rice in a mash ? Theoretically speaking, how much rice would be needed in a 23 litre brew to end up with a 1.050 OG. Being theortical, not including any enzyme activity of the grain that might be required to convert the starches.


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## barneyb (25/5/10)

boobiedazzler said:


> Can someone comment on why flaked rice is preferred on this forum over plain old edible rice from the supermarket, suck as Zwickle mentions. I'm planning on making a light-bodied Aussie ale driven by POR as a house beer that can be repeated often for my unadventurous friends and family. My only experience with it (a cautious 250 grams) to date is still fermenting so no idea what it will add to the finished brew.


I plan to use rice in my next brew and have done a lot of reading on this forum about rice. From what I've read plain ol' normal rice is the preferred method. From what I've gathered you just cook it up the night before with plenty of water until it is pretty gluggy, then let it cool back down to normal temp and throw it in with your mash. 

I've read a few people (NickJD is the only one I remember off the top of my head) who use rice as about 30% of their grain bill. Just search for rice in the search and there are a bunch of threads worth reading.


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## manticle (25/5/10)

Nashmandu said:


> i disagree. Grapes also have a long history of use in fermented beverages, as do apples and many other things. but as far as i know there isnt any style of beer that has corn or rice in it...the germans dont use it, eastern europe doesnt, england doesnt, the monks dont...however, budweisser do, corona do etc
> 
> Ps i didnt say you cant use it, i said it is unessecary, which is in my opinion 98.66% (bradmans average) correct.



Look up chicha, a fermented drink made from malted corn or Tesguino. Additionally when you say the Germans don't etc I'm guessing you mean commercial breweries. Apart from being incorrect (as Bribie points out some English breweries have used it) beer is and has been made all over the world by people with no commercial outlet - including homebrewers.

Styles are not strictly bound pieces of dogma either - the beer comes first then the style describes it. If people want to put rice in their beer because it gives it a quality they like then it really doesn't matter if Orval isn't doing the same thing. They are not doing it to make everything cheaper so to claim that's the only use of the two items is plainly wrong. 

Call me a girl if you like, I'm not sure how much I care. Fact is - rice and corn have uses other than the one you describe. If you're not a fan of using it then fair enough but there's more to the picture than you suggest.


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## Nashmandu (25/5/10)

BribieG said:


> Ok settle down nashie and listen. Rice and corn were used extensively in American and British beers starting in the middle of the Nineteenth Century, for two reasons:
> 
> UK: the use of the new artificial fertilisers produced high nitrogen barleys that were giving persistent hazes in beers, and that at a time when glassware was becoming cheaper and ordinary drinkers - and pubs - could afford to buy glass. So the appearance and clarity of the beer became important. Grain adjuncts could use up the 'diastatic power' of the malt and prevent the hazes, as well as producing a lighter bodied beer such as the "running beers" of the early 20th century that developed into modern bitters and milds.
> 
> ...




Your knowledge on the history of beer is clearer more advanced than mine. However my original point- that to make a nice clean, sessionable, light coloured lager or pilsener...rice and or corn are simply unnecessary-still stands .............experimentation aside. And to a large degree my other point that rice/corn in modern brewing are mainly used as cost cutters ....


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## manticle (25/5/10)

That may be what you meant but not what you wrote. Nothing wrong with a bit of clarification.


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## Katherine (25/5/10)

manticle said:


> Call me a girl if you like, I'm not sure how much I care. Fact is - rice and corn have uses other than the one you describe. If you're not a fan of using it then fair enough but there's more to the picture than you suggest.




You might not care but I would!


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## manticle (25/5/10)

You haven't seen my legs in a string bikini.


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## Ross (26/5/10)

Nashmandu said:


> Your knowledge on the history of beer is clearer more advanced than mine. However my original point- that to make a nice clean, sessionable, light coloured lager or pilsener...rice and or corn are simply unnecessary-still stands .............experimentation aside. And to a large degree my other point that rice/corn in modern brewing are mainly used as cost cutters ....



Budvar contains a small portion of rice & i would very much doubt it's for cost cutting. Maize is also still used extensively in British & American beers. Yes, there's no need to add, but there's absolutely nothing wrong in using them either.

Cheers Ross


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## Bribie G (26/5/10)

I'd agree that they are not Mandatory. However it's a bit like saying that Turkish Bread or Focaccia are unnecessary to make a tasty lunchtime snack, only wholemeal bread needs to be used. Depends on the style style style. Yesterday I made a Helles style Southern German Lager with 100% malt (4kg Galaxy Pilsener and 1kg Vienna). I'm sure that will be light and sessionable. Tomorrow I'll be cranking out an American Cream Ale with 4kg Galaxy and 1kg Polenta. The Galaxy cost me about $3 a kilo, the Polenta was over $4. However that will also be a nice sessionable light summery ale.


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## WarmBeer (26/5/10)

manticle said:


> You haven't seen my legs in a string bikini.


Only 7 weeks to the Vic case swap. You wear the bikini that day, and I guarantee you won't be able to make that assertion here again


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## warrenlw63 (26/5/10)

Ross said:


> Budvar contains a small portion of rice & i would very much doubt it's for cost cutting. Maize is also still used extensively in British & American beers. Yes, there's no need to add, but there's absolutely nothing wrong in using them either.
> 
> Cheers Ross



Not sure where you got that info Ross... Mind you I have no objection to Rice in my own beers and quite enjoy it.

_Budvar is brewed in the Czech Republic and is not to be confused with a *British-brewed American rice beer with a similar name*. The Czech beer is a far superior product and a perfect beer for the hot summer weather.

Budvar is a straw-coloured lager with a distinctive floral, hoppy nose caused by the Saaz hops from Zatec used to brew this beer. This lager is also brewed with *100% Moravian malt, not rice or sugar* and the result is a dry, biscuity flavour with a dry finish on the aftertaste. The term lager means to store and Budvar is lagered in the brewery for 90 days, a far longer time than most beers of this style and the first class ingredients together with the care shown by this brewery in keeping to traditional methods all contribute to produce one of the best beers in the world._

If you have info to the contrary I'd be interested to know where you found it.

Warren -


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## T.D. (27/5/10)

warrenlw63 said:


> Not sure where you got that info Ross... Mind you I have no objection to Rice in my own beers and quite enjoy it.
> 
> _Budvar is brewed in the Czech Republic and is not to be confused with a *British-brewed American rice beer with a similar name*. The Czech beer is a far superior product and a perfect beer for the hot summer weather.
> 
> ...



Yeah I didn't think any of those serious german or czech beers broke the reinheitsgebot law...


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (7/6/10)

What about Jasmine Rice? I can tell the difference between white and Jasmine when I eat it, I wonder what the difference will be to brew with it compared to regular rice.


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## under (7/6/10)

I would stick to the normal long grain rice. Im sure jasmine will add something else, and im not sure it will be pleasant.


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## jakub76 (7/6/10)

boobiedazzler said:


> To leave off from this silly argument for a moment
> 
> Can someone comment on why flaked rice is preferred on this forum over plain old edible rice from the supermarket, suck as Zwickle mentions. I'm planning on making a light-bodied Aussie ale driven by POR as a house beer that can be repeated often for my unadventurous friends and family. My only experience with it (a cautious 250 grams) to date is still fermenting so no idea what it will add to the finished brew.
> 
> On a similar note, what's the fermentability calculation for rice in a mash ? Theoretically speaking, how much rice would be needed in a 23 litre brew to end up with a 1.050 OG. Being theortical, not including any enzyme activity of the grain that might be required to convert the starches.


As I understand it flaked rice has already been gelatinized, dried out and flaked so it can go straight into your mash. If you're using regular rice from coles you need to boil it to gelatinize it. I tip a 1kg bag into 5 litres of water and boil for an hour. Then that goes into the strike water, I get it to the right temp and dough in as normal. 
I have had great success with a light lager I made with rice, really delicious. I did have problems lautering the last ricey mash, I'll be keeping the mash a bit looser in fututre.
As for the argument, well this forum is always entertaining


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## Nick JD (7/6/10)

I've used short grain sushi rice before with success.


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## haysie (7/6/10)

I notice a lot of recipes mention a protein rest. Is this nessacary?
The simplest method I have seen is to boil the wice the wight before, then dump the wot in the mash tun with malt/s for a simple sachrication mash. Any downside to this method?


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## Nick JD (8/6/10)

haysie said:


> I notice a lot of recipes mention a protein rest. Is this nessacary?
> The simplest method I have seen is to boil the wice the wight before, then dump the wot in the mash tun with malt/s for a simple sachrication mash. Any downside to this method?



Not that I know of. I boil the rice an hour or two before grinding the grain, and my cooling method involves successive washing of the cooked rice with cold water. This removes a lot of the gloopy stuff that makes sticky rice, sticky. I think it might be proteins, so it might help to wash the cooked or even uncooked rice - but as ever, it's a guess. 

Beer with rice in it is always very clear, no idea why.


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## Bribie G (8/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> Not that I know of. I boil the rice an hour or two before grinding the grain, and my cooling method involves successive washing of the cooked rice with cold water. This removes a lot of the gloopy stuff that makes sticky rice, sticky. I think it might be proteins, so it might help to wash the cooked or even uncooked rice - but as ever, it's a guess.
> 
> Beer with rice in it is always very clear, no idea why.



I guess the conversion of the rice during mashing uses up enzymes (which are proteins) that might otherwise hang around and cause hazes - that's why they started using rice and corn in the first place (quite apart from any cost cutting) . I don't know the chemistry, Fourstar would be on top of that.


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## haysie (8/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> Not that I know of. I boil the rice an hour or two before grinding the grain, and my cooling method involves successive washing of the cooked rice with cold water. This removes a lot of the gloopy stuff that makes sticky rice, sticky. I think it might be proteins, so it might help to wash the cooked or even uncooked rice - but as ever, it's a guess.
> 
> Beer with rice in it is always very clear, no idea why.



If washing and then adding the rice Nick, does it absorb more during the mash, leaving less run off?




BribieG said:


> I guess the conversion of the rice during mashing uses up enzymes (which are proteins) that might otherwise hang around and cause hazes - that's why they started using rice and corn in the first place (quite apart from any cost cutting) . I don't know the chemistry, Fourstar would be on top of that.



To wash or not to wash? I`m readind dont wash?

spelling again


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## Bribie G (8/6/10)

I don't wash, I think the 'dust' on rice nowadays is just starch, a long time ago it used to be talc to make the rice more shiny looking for the trade.


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## therook (8/6/10)

haysie said:


> If washing and then adding the rice Nick, does it absorb more during the mash, leaving less run off?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wash mine and then cook it in a rice cooker the night before.

Rook


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## Nick JD (8/6/10)

haysie said:


> If washing and then adding the rice Nick, does it absorb more during the mash, leaving less run off?



It's weird. When I use 500g of cooked rice and say, 2.5kg of malt it takes up heaps of space in the mash (the rice is as big as the grain because it's already "wet"). 

Then when the bag is pulled out ... the rice has disappeared! I think it almost completely converts - it's like adding sugar, the volume doesn't increase, the liquid just gets denser.


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## haysie (8/6/10)

therook said:


> I wash mine and then cook it in a rice cooker the night before.
> 
> Rook



Hiya Rook, Do you do a protein rest?
Trying to determine the simplest method 
1/ i.e washing precooked rice as you do OR washing cooked rice as looks like Nick does. 
2/ Is a protein rest realy nessacary? Most recipes include one. I dont wish to do one and would forgo using rice if I had to step mash.
3/ Absorb`s how much wort per kilo? same as malt or having already absorbed truckloads of water does one only account for the malt
4/ If using Beersmith, calculate plain old rice as flakes?


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## therook (8/6/10)

haysie said:


> Hiya Rook, Do you do a protein rest?
> Trying to determine the simplest method
> 1/ i.e washing precooked rice as you do OR washing cooked rice as looks like Nick does.
> 2/ Is a protein rest realy nessacary? Most recipes include one. I dont wish to do one and would forgo using rice if I had to step mash.
> ...




G'day haysie,

1. I only wash pre cooked as i dont want to take the gamble the powder is Talc
2. Never ever done a Protein rest in any beer
3. Good question, i add it to the MT and look at it as dry grain and that it will absorb some water ( were not talking shit loads of rice so were not adding shit loads of water )
4. Yep

Hope this helps a bit





Rook


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## Bribie G (8/6/10)

Nick JD said:


> It's weird. When I use 500g of cooked rice and say, 2.5kg of malt it takes up heaps of space in the mash (the rice is as big as the grain because it's already "wet").
> 
> Then when the bag is pulled out ... the rice has disappeared! I think it almost completely converts - it's like adding sugar, the volume doesn't increase, the liquid just gets denser.



I'm glad about that Nick, I thought I was hallucinating. I've done a couple of brews the last few days. First one had an all malt bill of around 6kg and when I'd finally squeezed the bag and took it out to the compost it was bloody heavy. Last night I did a lager with similar grain weight but a kilo and a half of rice and after hoisting and squeezing it was a tiny little light husk-ball in comparison to the all malt. Also it seems to be far dryer, I think the rice that does remain is in the form of rice hull type objects that help free draining.


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## haysie (8/6/10)

Ok, I`ll have a bit each way thanks. I`ll prewash the rice then cook it, leave overnight (wont sour the mash will it  ) add with the grains, maybe go a little thinner with mash water i.e 4ltrs>1kg, mash low n long.
If it all goes pear shaped......look out :angry: 

Thanks


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## Ross (8/6/10)

> QUOTE (warrenlw63 @ May 26 2010, 10:23 AM)
> Not sure where you got that info Ross... Mind you I have no objection to Rice in my own beers and quite enjoy it.
> 
> Budvar is brewed in the Czech Republic and is not to be confused with a British-brewed American rice beer with a similar name. The Czech beer is a far superior product and a perfect beer for the hot summer weather.
> ...





T.D. said:


> Yeah I didn't think any of those serious german or czech beers broke the reinheitsgebot law...




Sorry for late reply guys, only just read this.

The person who told me was the malster within Budvar who came over here & was head brewer at Mt Brewery for a period. Of course, he could have been lying, but I very much doubt it.
From memory it was only 1 or 2%, but there nevertheless.


Cheers Ross


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## NickB (8/6/10)

My process basically involves doughing in my mash at protein rest temps (approx. 50C) and resting for 20 mins. Prior to that I just boil some white rice until mushy (no rinsing pre or post boil), and when ready, dump into the mash, and step up to the sacc. rest temp (I use a HERMS so this is easy). From there I mash the full 60 or 90 mins, mash out and brew as normal.

This is my latest effort. Had some Green Bullet left over, so used that. Really coming into its own now. Shame I only did a small batch and there's about 6 bottles left? Oh well, double batch next time!





Cheers


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## Bribie G (8/6/10)

re Budvar: The Czech republic was part of the Austro Hungarian Empire till 1918 and although they used pure malt and hops they were not German and didn't have to adhere (or feel they had to adhere) to the Reinheitsgebot - the other countries that emeged from that Empire such as Austria itself use adjuncts nowadays. According to Protz the venerable brands such as Gosser have up to 20% maize etc. I get the feeling that Czech breweries continued to be more 'traditional' into modern times ( until recently gangs of workers rolling pitch lined huge barrels around the breweries etc) because they were under Communism for so long and nothing much changed. Now that Heineken et al have got into the act there I hope they don't modernise too quickly.

Edit: yes Nick that's basically what I do as well, dough in, check temp then raise the bag clear of the element and run the urn for a few minutes (After over 100 urn brews I know how many degrees the urn raises per minute) then re-stir like buggery and lag the urn. When you were here for the brewday it was an all malt brew so just a plain old infusion.


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## Fourstar (8/6/10)

you should wash before cooking it, got to remove all that talc they use to polish it (or whatever it is) just to clean it i suppose!

As for washing afterwards, well you are just decreasing your efficiency that way. if you where concerned about getting a stuck mash, you could always perform a beta glucan rest @ 40-45deg. Personally i wouldnt bother, cooked rice is already pregelatinised and converts really well with minimal lauter troubles anyway.


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## manticle (8/6/10)

haysie said:


> Ok, I`ll have a bit each way thanks. I`ll prewash the rice then cook it, leave overnight (wont sour the mash will it  ) add with the grains, maybe go a little thinner with mash water i.e 4ltrs>1kg, mash low n long.
> If it all goes pear shaped......look out :angry:
> 
> Thanks




Ok to put in the fridge and either add some extra hot water to bring it to ambient temp before mashing or make your strike water slightly hotter.

Having said that - current weather in melbourne in my non heated house means food that gets left on the stovetop overnight is plenty cold in the morning. I think my house is colder than the fridge.


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## Nick JD (8/6/10)

Fourstar said:


> As for washing afterwards, well you are just decreasing your efficiency that way.



I'm not washing it post-cook, I'm rapid cooling it. B) It's gets washed in the process. 

Dirty rice is for Kao Phat.


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