# Gouden Carolous Classic



## THE DRUNK ARAB (9/12/05)

Bought a bottle of this beer a few weeks ago at Dan Murphy's, Marion for $4.95.
Got stuck into it last night!

Appearance is deep brown with a fluffy biege head.
Aroma of sweet malt, bubblegum and honey.
Flavours of lovely sweet malt and honey/toffee. Unbelievably smooth for an 8.5% beer.

I recommend you try this with the Xmas pudding. I'm off to get 4 more on the weekend it was so delicious :super: 

C&B
TDA


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## warrenlw63 (9/12/05)

Already had some TDA. Yep, you're right. Perfect Christmas beer. Like a plum pudding in a bottle.  :chug: 

You just reminded me to grab a few for the big day I think. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## neonmeate (9/12/05)

it is a lovely beer. definitely one of my favourites. so rich.
i had a stab at brewing a clone last week in fact - here is what i did
http://hbd.org/discus/messages/1/34135.html?1134060979


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## Murray (9/12/05)

I love this beer. I usually get a few when near Dan Murphy's.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (19/1/06)

How is your clone looking and tasting neonmeate?

C&B
TDA


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## neonmeate (19/1/06)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> How is your clone looking and tasting neonmeate?
> 
> C&B
> TDA
> [post="103582"][/post]​




funny you ask, i'm just about to bottle it tonight - been lagering it since christmas.
tasting great! think i got the ratio of maltiness, caramel and toastiness just right. plenty of body but finishes dry. still a bit raw but time will take care of that.

colour's spot on for gouden carolus but it's still a bit hazy- maybe it will clear up in the bottle. either that or i shouldve given the weyermann pils a protein rest... im not sure. i dont really care about haze in belgian beers too much though. 

only thing is i think this yeast (wyeast leuven pale ale) is pretty boring. i wish i used 1762 or 3787 for some fat fruitiness. 

you planning something similar?


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## neonmeate (19/1/06)

dont think that link works anymore so here is the recipe for you:

3kg weyermann pils 
1kg Weyermann dark munich 
150g caramunich II 
150g cara-aroma 
150g Fawcett's amber 
240g flaked wheat 
800g dark candi 

Styrian for bittering, plus some Hallertau at 30 mins. 20g Indian coriander + 20g orange peel at flameout. 
Wyeast 3538 (Leuven) 
OG was 1070, racking grav was 1008.


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## wessmith (19/1/06)

Neonmeate, that 800g of candy sugar is 17% of the grain bill. That will certainly give a very dry beer. I have a Saison on tap at the moment with 10% clear candy sugar and I reckon that is a bit too much and will settle for around 6 to 8% for future Belgian styles. 

Its all a matter of balancing the flavours and too dry makes it very difficult - just look (dont drink?!) at the mainstream offerings that use up to 35% syrup adjunct and then have to add back "brew body" (malto dextrin syrup) to maintain balance.

dont you love this hobby....

Wes


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## warrenlw63 (19/1/06)

Recipe shamelessly stolen NM.

Truly looks the goods.  How does the Leuven yeast behave? Yet to try it. :unsure: It's the Corsendonk strain IIRC?

Warren -


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## neonmeate (19/1/06)

wes - yeah i was a bit apprehensive about using that much sugar at first but was convinced (a) by reading Brew like a Monk where a lot of the trappist breweries cited use between 15 and 20% sugar and (B) by getting the stats for gouden carolus from the website - from an OG of 18P (1074) they get 8.5% alc which needs an FG of 1010 or so. so i had to add that much sugar to get it down that far. i undershot my starting gravity a bit but still got my 8.5%...it is a bit dryer than i wanted, maybe next time i would only add 500 or 600g candi. it's certainly very malty from the munich and stuff. ill see how it tastes when it's carbonated - hard to gauge mouthfeel out of the fermenter.
on a side note, does weyermann pilsener malt ever need a protein rest? i got a bit of haze but im not sure whether it's that or my flaked wheat addition.



warren - yeah that's right it's the du bocq strain. as i said above it doesnt really leave a lot of flavour of its own, sort of like the bastogne strain like that. goes pretty quickly and doesnt flocculate very well. the wyeast description is right - it begins phenolic and then that fades out fairly quickly - pity as that might make things a bit more interesting!


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## warrenlw63 (19/1/06)

neonmeate said:


> on a side note, does weyermann pilsener malt ever need a protein rest? i got a bit of haze but im not sure whether it's that or my flaked wheat addition.
> 
> [post="103633"][/post]​




NM.

Haze would be the wheat. Anytime I've used Weyermann Pils. It's crystal clear. Possibly not a bit of suspended yeast or chill haze is it?

BTW. Wes my Saison has 5% sugar and in reality I'm of the opposite opinion. I really think it could have stood a little more. Different strokes. :lol: 

Warren -


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (20/1/06)

neonmeate said:


> THE DRUNK ARAB said:
> 
> 
> > How is your clone looking and tasting neonmeate?
> ...



Most definately. It's good to get the feedback so I will take it onboard. I was going to use the Wyeast 1388 Belgian Strong Ale yeast. Still haven't sorted a grain bill yet as it uis far too hot for brewing in Adelaide at the moment.

C&B
TDA


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## johnno (25/1/06)

After reading TDA's review last week I went down to Dan Murphys and purchased 4 stubbies of this beer.
Price was $5.50 each.
I have only had Chimay Blue in the Belgian beers so far.
I must say this is an awesome drop.
I will not try and review it as I am crap at that but do take TDA's word on it.

Due to a %$&&$% lingering back injury I will be limited in my brewing this year and I want to try as many Belgian beers as I can. This is going to end up being very expensive.

I also reckon that whatever I will brew (when I can) this year will probably be in the Belgian style as I need to get value from my brews.

johnno


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (30/1/06)

Heres what I have come up with for this beer.

4.25kg Galaxy
1.75kg Weyermann Pils
1.00kg Weyerman Munich 1
0.30kg Weyermann Caraaroma
0.25kg Weyermann Caramunich
0.05kg Carafa 2
0.80kg White sugar
45g Willamette (AA 4.3%) 60 min
Wyeast 1388 yeast

OG 1082
IBU 27
EBC 39

The colour looked very close when running it into the fermenter. I will report back when this has fermented out.

C&B
TDA


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## neonmeate (30/1/06)

nice one TDA looks tasty. looks like yours will be a bit stronger than mine, but possibly finish up a bit higher with the FG which is probably good.
let us know how it goes. no spices?


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (30/1/06)

neonmeate said:


> nice one TDA looks tasty. looks like yours will be a bit stronger than mine, but possibly finish up a bit higher with the FG which is probably good.
> let us know how it goes. no spices?
> [post="105439"][/post]​


 
neonmeate, I could not find any references to spices in the Classic. If you found some can you post the link please.

Yes, I know it is a bit higher in starting gravity but I hope it will come down to 1015 at least. I mashed at 64C so it should be more fermentable.
I will keep you posted.

C&B
TDA


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## warrenlw63 (30/1/06)

TDA and NM.

Blantantly swiped from Michael Jackson's Great Beers of Belgium.

_Gouden Carolus begins with a gravity of 19 Plato (1076) and emerges with 6.8w; 8.5v). It is made from one pale and two dark malts, imparting a claret colour. The body has in recent years been lightened with 10-15 per cent corn (maize). Challenger and Hallertau-Hersbrucker hops are used, together with Curacao orange peels and two undisclosed spices._

Challenger hops are a surprise. You don't tend to see them in a lot of Belgians.  

Warren -


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (30/1/06)

Thanks for that snippet Warren. Guess I could add spices in secondary, if I can be arsed.

Love the avatar Warren, that is the local beer in the pubs in Uppingham (where the other half is from). A lovely session ale :chug: 

C&B
TDA


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## warrenlw63 (30/1/06)

TDA

I actually bought a bottle of this on the weekend. Preferred the label to the beer.  Hence the new avatar.

Unfortunately it didn't fare that well. Very thin body and non-existent head, yet the hop aroma seemed to have survived. That said it's most likely a case of the condition of the beer than the beer itself.

Think you may be right about it being a far different entity on tap in it's native environment.

Just another Brit Ale that didn't survive the trip to Oz.  

OTOH The bottle of Young's Special London Ale I had was fantastic. :beerbang: 

'Scuse the slight hijack.  

Warren -


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## neonmeate (30/1/06)

Youngs special london ale rules. oh yeah. one of my favourite beers. but why do most of the other youngs beers suck shit?

everards tiger was a tasty fugglesy drop i remember - had it dryhopped in cask in birmingham.

that's really interesting info there warren! i need that book. i got my info out of MJ's "great beer guide" where it says they use coriander and orange peel. wonder what the third spice is? 

maize hey? guess the caramel flavours must come from the boil rather than a lot of caramel syrup.

one pale and two dark malts.... pils, aromatic and special B?


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## warrenlw63 (30/1/06)

Yep,

I've got both books NM. MJ is a little self-contradictory in his descriptives of the beer. OTOH I think the basic recipe has changed in the last few years. IMO It tastes a better now than what I did when I first tried it in Brussels in 2000. Back then I found it to be a little more "winey" than what it is now and not totally to my liking. That said I first tried it after a bottle of Rodenbach Grand Cru.

I think the caramel flavours could even be added in other ways. It's not beyond any brewer to add things like Brewer's Caramel to colour the wort to the desired spec. 

There's paragraphs in Brew Like a Monk that stipulate a lot of Belgian brewers are now using dark liquid candy syrup. By all accounts the flavour and colour contributions far exceed what dark candy sugar crystals will give you.  

If you go to the Babblebelt site there's a bunch of brewers in the US getting all warm and fuzzy about the stuff and are contemplating ordering some in from Candico in Belgium. :blink: 

Dark Candy Syrup

NM It's a shame you don't like Youngs beers.  I'll be a little controversial. In their native environment I think they transcend Fullers beers. Young's Special Bitter in the cask is one of my absolute faves.

OTOH, yes I agree with you to the point of saying they possibly suck shit by the time they hit our shelves. They're usually just shadows of their former selves. I think the Special London Ale tends to survive due to it's beefy SG and bottle conditioning. Also it's well fortified with hops.  

Warren -


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## neonmeate (3/2/06)

first tasting of my gouden carolus beer:
amazingly it's cleared up completely. strange how sometimes it just won't clear until you bottle it.
so - i can get a good look at the colour now. mine is a very dark red-brown - i seem to remember the original being not exactly darker but browner. mine has a lot of red. maybe a bit of carafa with a paler base is a good idea.

aroma is mostly melanoidins and coriander with a bit of caramel and juicy fruits esters. still a fair whack of alcohol which will need a couple of months to settle. 
in the mouth orangey coriander dries out sweet malt, finishing very dry but long and malty with a very clear note of dried pear. hallertau flavour is quite noticeable but again im hoping that will blend in. more than enough toasty flavour from the little bit of amber malt i put in (that stuff is good in small doses for sure)

all in all im very happy! i dont think it's too dry at all - on the contrary it carries off malt richness without being cloying or heavy - flavour of a doppelbock with the lightness of a duvel.


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## warrenlw63 (3/2/06)

OK NM, where do you send some bottles? 

My address is as follows...  

Well done! Sounds a good drop. Good move putting a hint of Amber malt in there too. 

Flavour of a doppelbock with the lightness of a Duvel? Sounds like you may have done a very good Maredsous 8 clone instead.  

Funny you mention Belgian yeasts and their reluctance to clear. I've got a couple of kegs of Belgian blonde I made with Wyeast 1388 (Belgian Strong) and that stuff just *won't* get out of the picture.  3 Weeks primary ferment and 2 weeks in the keg and it's still as cloudy as a good pea soup. <_< Dare I say it. Maybe it's removing the remaining dextrins. Beer is drying out nicely but still has some rough/yeasty/solventy edges to it but a cracking Saaz hop flavour. 

Need to be patient methinks. 

Warren -


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (5/2/06)

neonmeate said:


> first tasting of my gouden carolus beer:
> amazingly it's cleared up completely. strange how sometimes it just won't clear until you bottle it.
> so - i can get a good look at the colour now. mine is a very dark red-brown - i seem to remember the original being not exactly darker but browner. mine has a lot of red. maybe a bit of carafa with a paler base is a good idea.
> 
> ...



:chug: :chug: :chug: 

That sounds great NM. Hang on to a bottle and we can do a swap if your interested.
Mine is @ 1026 and still going strong.
I tried a bottle of the original on Friday and can't pick up any spice notes whatsoever. Still bloody lovely though :super: 

C&B
TDA


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (20/2/06)

I racked my supposed clone off of the yeast after 3 weeks in primary yesterday.
The 1388 has done a good job of chewing through the sugars with a gravity reading of 1012. That makes it a little over 9% so it won't be that similar to Gouden Carolus.  (maybe I will tip it out :blink: )
I haven't added spices to secondary as I am not 100% sure on wether to use them or not. Has anyone added spices to beers in secondary and had any success or do they have any advice on how to go about it.
As always, it's appreciated.

C&B
TDA


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## wee stu (20/2/06)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> (maybe I will tip it out :blink: )
> C&B
> TDA
> [post="109856"][/post]​



As long as you tip it in my direction  

And no, I have no experience with spices in secondary. Sorry.


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## neonmeate (20/2/06)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> I racked my supposed clone off of the yeast after 3 weeks in primary yesterday.
> The 1388 has done a good job of chewing through the sugars with a gravity reading of 1012. That makes it a little over 9% so it won't be that similar to Gouden Carolus.  (maybe I will tip it out :blink: )
> I haven't added spices to secondary as I am not 100% sure on wether to use them or not. Has anyone added spices to beers in secondary and had any success or do they have any advice on how to go about it.
> As always, it's appreciated.
> ...



maybe you'll be closer to carolus cuve van de keizer... which is apparently a good un.

i have added spices to secondary heaps of times. some stuff ive read on this round the place advises you to make a potion by chucking the spices into some vodka to ensure sterility, then throwing the infused vodka (minus spices) in the secondary, but i've just thrown things into secondary and never had an issue - guess it depends on where you keep your spices. i wouldnt add orange peel though cause that would have heaps of bugs crawling around on it.
i've even added small amounts of spices to the bottle for experiments, which works well too - you have to be careful about adding too much though.

depending on the spice, it can be better to add the spices whole so you can rack off the top of them and you don't get lots of tiny grains of spice floating around.
coriander for eg needs to be ground but things like star anise, grains of paradise and cardamom can be added whole to infuse. i wouldnt leave them in too long though.

i can definitely taste coriander in gouden carolus, but it is blended into everything else in a different way to a witbier or something. ageing helps with that - coriander mellows really nicely so that after a year or so it's just a nice warm orangeyness surrounding all the other flavours in a sunset glow... depends how much you like the stuff i guess. and whether it tastes like it needs anything extra.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (16/6/06)

Been meaning to update this thread for a while.

My "clone" has been in the bottle for a few months now and I did a comparitive tasting about 3 weeks ago.

The clone ended up at 9.7% so for a start it is nowhere near the 8.5% that GC is.
You can see the comparison in colour and head in the piccy. My clone is on the left, the original GC is on the right. (please excuse the picture quality  )
Aroma's are estery, raisins and plums plus a big whiff of alcohol.
Flavour, sweet, malty some fruitiness and definately warming from the alcohol content. Seems reasonably full bodied for a beer that ended at 1008!

All in all it is no GC clone as I didn't add the said spices, however as a Strong Dark Belgian Ale it fits the bill fairly well even though I do say so myself  !

C&B
TDA


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## warrenlw63 (16/6/06)

I can attest to TDA's claims. Was a very nice dark strong ale indeed. :beerbang: 

It's only fault is I drank too much and fell asleep. :lol: 

Thanks again for the opportunity TDA.  

Warren -


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## bconnery (16/6/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> Yep,
> 
> I've got both books NM. MJ is a little self-contradictory in his descriptives of the beer. OTOH I think the basic recipe has changed in the last few years. IMO It tastes a better now than what I did when I first tried it in Brussels in 2000. Back then I found it to be a little more "winey" than what it is now and not totally to my liking. That said I first tried it after a bottle of Rodenbach Grand Cru.
> 
> ...



Two cents worth on a slight off topic thread but I'd agree about the Youngs thing. 
I lived in London around Wandsworth and really enjoyed many pints of Youngs on tap. The Special especially. 
I do think many good tap beers don't survive the transition to bottles, let alone to the other side of the world.


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