# Polyclar Users



## Steve

Ive been using Polyclar for the last 5 or so brews now and it works a treat. I dissolve 7gms in 250mls boiling water. Pour into a plastic pet bottle and shake it for 15 minutes to half an hour. I dont stop shaking, the bottle goes everywhere I go :blink: . It gets a bit tedious after a while. I then pour this into the fermenter via the airlock with a funnel. Just wondering how everyone else agitates their polyclar? How much do you use? Do you wait for the water to cool before adding? How long do you agitate for before adding?
Cheers
Steve


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## newguy

Steve said:


> Ive been using Polyclar for the last 5 or so brews now and it works a treat. I dissolve 7gms in 250mls boiling water. Pour into a plastic pet bottle and shake it for 15 minutes to half an hour. I dont stop shaking, the bottle goes everywhere I go :blink: . It gets a bit tedious after a while. I then pour this into the fermenter via the airlock with a funnel. Just wondering how everyone else agitates their polyclar? How much do you use? Do you wait for the water to cool before adding? How long do you agitate for before adding?
> Cheers
> Steve



Aren't you concerned about the oxygen you're introducing? Then again, how much oxygen can 250 ml of water add to 20 litres of beer.... :huh:


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## Steve

newguy said:


> Aren't you concerned about the oxygen you're introducing? Then again, how much oxygen can 250 ml of water add to 20 litres of beer.... :huh:




hadnt thought about that newguy...but how else are you meant to agitate it?

The instructions actually say stir! Whoops



Usage instructions:

Add 5 – 10gms polyclar (23L batch) to half a cup of freshly boiled water. (For maximum efficiency the polyclar slurry should be stirred for minimum 15 minutes, preferably 60 minutes & kept agitated until used)

Add slurry to cold conditioning beer. (The colder the beer the better).

Minimum contact time of 5 to 10 minutes is desirable (if filtering), however there is no negative impact on the beer with extended times. If not filtering, leave for 2 to 3 days to settle, then rack off the lees.


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## newguy

I have no idea.....the polyclar I've personally used was a packet of liquid. Didn't know you could buy it dry.

What would happen if you added the polyclar to cool water, then boiled it all? Dump the still hot mixture into the beer. I've used this approach with yeast nutrient on batches that were stuck with no ill effects.


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## DJR

A stirplate for rehydrating would be perfect - my method though is to dissolve it in some near boiling water, stir for a minute every 5 minutes for 15 minutes, then dump it into the CC cube and give the cube a gentle spin to dissolve it. Works fine.


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## Aussie Claret

It doesn't dissolve but I also use boiling water in a pyrex bottle and shake for about 1/2 hour then dump into the cube, leave usually over night then filter.
AC


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## therook

There is a write up on it on the craftbrewer site  

craftbrewer link


rook


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## Wortgames

If you find a little PET bottle that's only slightly larger than the volume of your mix (eg a juice bottle), you wouldn't introduce very much oxygen at all.


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## Steve

Wortgames said:


> If you find a little PET bottle that's only slightly larger than the volume of your mix (eg a juice bottle), you wouldn't introduce very much oxygen at all.




good thinking wort...i'll flog one of my sons. :beerbang: 

Cheers
Steve


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## Batz

I just bung mine on the stir plate for for 30-40 mins

Batz


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## Duff

I use half a cup of boiled cooled water in a pyrex glass jug and take to it with my stick blender for around 15 minutes. I then add it to the chilled keg, burp and give the keg a good shake to mix. Back in the fridge for 30 minutes, then filter.

Cheers.


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## Phrak

Whoops!
I've just been adding the PC dust dry to the secondary cube/fermentor while I'm racking. 

It gets a good mix around while the cube is filling, and it seems to have still worked really well to clear the beer.

Considering my success when used dry, I'm not sure if I could be bothered to mix it up as much as is recommended either  :wacko:


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## therook

Phrak,

Maybe you didn't need to use it in the first place  

rook


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## Phrak

Perhaps you're right! Another way of over-complicating the brewing process


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## Ross

I put mine on a stir plate for 60 mins. 
Before I started selling polyclar myself & getting the correct rehydration proceedures, I used to buy from the local homebrew store, mix with water & pitch straight away, as per their instructions. This works, but if you want maximum efficiency, rehydrate & add to beer that's prechilled as cool as possible.

Cheers Ross


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## AndrewQLD

Ross said:


> I put mine on a stir plate for 60 mins.
> Before I started selling polyclar myself & getting the correct rehydration proceedures, I used to buy from the local homebrew store, mix with water & pitch straight away, as per their instructions. This works, but if you want maximum efficiency, rehydrate & add to beer that's prechilled as cool as possible.
> 
> Cheers Ross



ROSS, are you supposed to rehydrate in HOT boiled water or Cooled boiled water?

Cheers
Andrew


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## Batz

Instructions I've read say either,does not matter Andrew

Batz


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## Ross

AndrewQLD said:


> ROSS, are you supposed to rehydrate in HOT boiled water or Cooled boiled water?
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew



Andrew, you can rehydrate in either, I'm not sure if hot speeds things up, but guess it may help, even use wort if you like (manufacturer recommends either), the important part is keeping it agitated. I use hot as it's still warm when I'm finished, I then simply pour with a funnel through the airlock & work on the theory that the warm liquid will quickly disperse across the surface & then slowly settle through the wort.

cheers Ross


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## AndrewQLD

Thanks Batz and Ross, I will try with the hot water.

Cheers
Andrew


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## BoilerBoy

Just a question,

How effective is PC without filtration and just left to settle over a few days and then racking off?

Cheers

BB


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## Steve

BoilerBoy said:


> Just a question,
> 
> How effective is PC without filtration and just left to settle over a few days and then racking off?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> BB




Boiler, as I bottle and dont filter I put mine in as close to 0 degrees, leave for 2-3 days and then bottle. Works great. No more chill haze.
Cheers
Steve


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## BoilerBoy

Thanks Steve,

I reckon I'll have to give this a go

Cheers mate


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## Wortgames

Apparently it helps to let the beer warm up a bit once you've fined it - this causes any remaining fine haze to drop out once and for all, then you can rack the bright beer and it should be immune from future chill haze.


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## Aussie Claret

Wortgames said:


> Apparently it helps to let the beer warm up a bit once you've fined it - this causes any remaining fine haze to drop out once and for all, then you can rack the bright beer and it should be immune from future chill haze.



I don't think that that is quite right (but stand to be corrected).

The reason being that the chill haze caused from the proteins 're-dissolve' when warm. If you have a chill haze affected beer and allow it to warm it will become quite clear; it doesn't mean that the proteins have been removed though, which is what the polyclar is used for, it binds itself to the protein for easy removal during filtering or settles out into the trub.

I'm sure I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Cheers
AC


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## Wortgames

Aussie Claret said:


> the chill haze caused from the proteins 're-dissolve' when warm



Not if they're bound to the fining agent, apparently. Maybe it's the reduced density of the warmer beer making it easier for particles to precipitate. I've heard/read this on numerous occasions, I'll see if I can find a source and post back.


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## Jye

Wortgames said:


> Not if they're bound to the fining agent, apparently. Maybe it's the reduced density of the warmer beer making it easier for particles to precipitate. I've heard/read this on numerous occasions, I'll see if I can find a source and post back.



Wouldn't mind reading that if you can find it Wortgames.

My process and thought is to chill the beer to 0C and form as much haze as possible then use PC the remove it. Any haze that is left over will re-dissolve and be much less noticeable at serving temperature 5-8C.


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## tangent

i rack during lagering and add a dissolved slurry to the bottom of the 2nd fermenter and rack onto it to mix. then i leave it for another 1-2 days and rack off into kegs.


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## Wortgames

Darn, don't you hate that? I spent ages reading about Polyclar a couple of weeks ago, and obviously I've read and heard a lot of stuff about fining in general over the years, but I can't find anything now to quote.

The closest I could find on Google just now is this, in reference to isinglass, here: http://www.abgbrew.com/pdf/maturation.pdf

_Although you rarely see it mentioned in the brewing literature it has long been understood by brewers and cellarmen in the U.K. that you always fine on a rising temperature. Thus, it is wise to cool the beer prior to fining by 2-3 degrees, then allow the beer to warm slightly while the isinglass works._

I'm sure I read specific references to Polyclar being best used the same way, but I can't find them now.


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## BoilerBoy

tangent said:


> i rack during lagering and add a dissolved slurry to the bottom of the 2nd fermenter and rack onto it to mix. then i leave it for another 1-2 days and rack off into kegs.




tangent,

Thats exactly what I was thinking I would do, thus not disturbing the yeast dropped out during lagering.

BB


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## Steve

Is it possible to add polyclar to a keg thats sitting at 5 degrees and already carbed up? I forgot  
Cheers
Steve


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## Ross

Steve said:


> Is it possible to add polyclar to a keg thats sitting at 5 degrees and already carbed up? I forgot
> Cheers
> Steve



Yes, but you will need to filter afterwards - best to chill to as near 0c as possible first as well.

cheers Ross


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## Back Yard Brewer

Steve said:


> Is it possible to add polyclar to a keg thats sitting at 5 degrees and already carbed up? I forgot
> Cheers
> Steve



I use PVPP (polyvinylpolypyrrolidone) at work quite often. We use it a lot in sparkling wine when required. The vessel is under pressure and around 0 - -2degrees. So the answer to your question is yes. Just work out a way of getting it in, which shouldnt be that hard.

BYB


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## Maxt

Back to your earlier question Steve. I use the kenwood chef on the lowest speed with a whisk attachment. Goes around at about stirring pace. I put it aside and let it go for 45 mins.


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## bigholty

I haven't used Polyclar before but I have some that I'm planning to use this week and I have a couple of questions. (I don't have a filtration set-up so I was planning on using the 'couple of days of CC'ing to settle out' method.)
1> Is it useful for reducing things other than chill-haze, such as suspended yeast or hop-pellet particles?
2> If I just add it into the top of a chilled primary, is it detrimental to the yeast-cake if I plan to wash and re-use the yeast?
3> Is it more effective poured into the top of the primary, or mixed in whilst racking to a secondary vessel?

Any hints/tips from any seasoned 'Polyclarers' would be appreciated.
Cheers, Mark.


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## reviled

h34r: Can I put a flame suit on and ask why??? 

Chill haze doesnt have a taste does it? So why the big obsession with getting rid of it? If the beer tastes good, but is a bit hazy, why is that a bad thing?


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## glennheinzel

reviled said:


> h34r: Can I put a flame suit on and ask why???
> 
> Chill haze doesnt have a taste does it? So why the big obsession with getting rid of it? If the beer tastes good, but is a bit hazy, why is that a bad thing?



Chill haze is a visual problem in the short term, but it does affect long term stability.


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## Bribie G

It's a perfectionist thing for sure, there's nothing like handing a rellie or friend a glass of crystal clear amber nectar with a perfect head and bead. To me it would be like spending weeks crafting a fine coffee table then not bothering to varnish or french polish it.

As to any 'health effects' of polyclar, its use as a clearing agent is only one tiny part of its repertoire. It is used in a huge range of products and processes. According to the Wikipedia article:

_PVP is also used in personal care products, such as shampoos and toothpastes, in paints, and (old style) adhesivespostage stamps and envelopes. It has also been used in contact lens solutions and in steel-quenching solutions. PVP is the basis of the early formulas for hair sprays and hair gels, and still continues to be a component of some.
_ 
And even: 

_PVP in its pure form is so safe that not only is it edible by humans, but it was used as a blood plasma_ expander for trauma victims after the first half of 20th century.

Since reading that, some time ago, after adding it to chilled beer in secondary fermentation I don't even rack it off the 'lees' as suggested in the Polyclar directions, I just leave it for a couple of days then bottle straight out of the vessel as is. I'm sure if you analysed my bottle dregs there would be some Polyclar there.

Edit: I don't use Polyclar with stouts and dark ales such as my Scotch 80/- etc.


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## bigholty

reviled said:


> h34r: Can I put a flame suit on and ask why???


You can! Normally I wouldn't bother with it either, but it sort of centres on question 1 a bit. You see I dry hopped with some pellets, thinking they would just sink to the bottom and then I would rack off the beer into the keg. But the pellets broke down and spread into a nice layer on the top of the beer. This brew is intended for entertaining some friends so I really wanted a nice bright beer - I'm trying to blow away that stereotype of murky, chunkly, 'brewed in a bathtub' homebrew that the untrained masses seem to have, and green chunks or cloudiness in the beer isn't going to help the image. I also like the idea that the beer will keep better for longer if it is clarified. Shouldn't matter with this keg, as there will be several people helping to polish it off, but normally it takes me a while to get through a barrel.


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## Bribie G

bigh, I had that nice duckpond green hop scum on top of an ESB paint-tin brew, a Czech Pilsener, as they put a fair slug of pellet in the brew. What I suggest you do is (time permitting)

Rack to secondary into a cube or fermenter that will fit into your fridge, and as the brew is transferring, put gelatine finings in the receiving vessel and it should mix in nicely. Over a couple of days this should drag the yeast and other lumps down to the bottom. Chill to as cold as you can get it, then use the Polyclar and let it sit cold for two or three days.

Then bottle or keg and that should clear everthing out that can be cleared.

Unfortunately gelatine, although it makes the beer drop bright spectacularly, doesn't help the sediment to solidify at the bottom of the keg or bottle. That's more of a yeast thing, and if you want a really good flocculating yeast try Nottingham. As one poster said in another thread "it clings like shit to a blanket"


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## buttersd70

reviled said:


> h34r: Can I put a flame suit on and ask why???
> 
> Chill haze doesnt have a taste does it? So why the big obsession with getting rid of it? If the beer tastes good, but is a bit hazy, why is that a bad thing?



Whilst Rukh answered the question already, for the longer version have a look here

Although this isn't the really long version. I can't for the life of me find that one. Lots of lovely chemistry stuff... :icon_drool2:


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## Thirsty Boy

Why - because clear beer is pretty. How things look can effect the way they taste. Thats why chefs go to so much trouble to present food well even though it would taste the same if it was just poured on the plate from a height. Plus the stability thing, but mostly for looks.

I want to convert people to homebrew - and nothing makes them go "oh... homebrew is it?" faster than seeing beer that isn't clear. After that, it doesn't matter what it actually tastes like - its yeasty muddy inferior homebrew. Hand them a glass of crystal clear beer, and at least it will make it to their lips before they pronounce it to be shit.

I add polyclar and filter every single beer I make - when I hold my glass of porter or RIP up to the light, I want to see those ruby highlights shining at the edges like its a stained glass window.

Steve - I have added it to carbed up kegs before. I use a syringe body to suck up the PVPP solution, then inject it in through the gas post using the syringe to push in the poppet. Burp keg to atmospheric pressure and lock open the pressure relief valve first of course. Means I don't have to open up the keg and I minimise oxygen contact.

Usually I just add it into primary after crash chilling for a day or two, swirl it around, let it sit for 10mins and filter.

TB


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## Back Yard Brewer

buttersd70 said:


> Whilst Rukh answered the question already, for the longer version have a look here
> 
> Although this isn't the really long version. I can't for the life of me find that one. Lots of lovely chemistry stuff... :icon_drool2:




FFS do you have to be a rocket scientist to get ones head around the Proanthocyanidins, polyphenols, hordein, polyvinylpolypyrrolidon (I know what that is),polyproline, carbonyl :wacko: . I think I might just stick to brewing beer.

BYB


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## buttersd70

Back Yard Brewer said:


> FFS do you have to be a rocket scientist to get ones head around the Proanthocyanidins, polyphenols, hordein, polyvinylpolypyrrolidon (I know what that is),polyproline, carbonyl :wacko: . I think I might just stick to brewing beer.
> 
> BYB



No, going that deep is not everyones cuppa tea. :lol: But something about brewing opens up the inner geek with me.


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## drsmurto

Nice link Butters! Haven't looked at colloids since 3rd year chem at uni. Brings it all back but would have been even sexier with lots of juicy equations..... B) 

Geek? Me?  

I think TB summed it up perfectly. Hard enough to get some of my mates to try my beer since they know i HB but hand them a glass of torrens water and the craft goes backwards another 10 years. When the more open minded mates look at me after seeing the clear beer and then smelling/tasting it and saying - I'd pay for that, jobs done!

I use polyclar (and extended ccing/lagering) for this reason but also to see just how good my beer can look as well as taste.

Nothing like getting a judging sheet back with the word 'bright' describing the clarity.


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## bigholty

BribieG said:


> Rack to secondary into a cube or fermenter that will fit into your fridge, and as the brew is transferring, put gelatine finings in the receiving vessel and it should mix in nicely. Over a couple of days this should drag the yeast and other lumps down to the bottom. Chill to as cold as you can get it, then use the Polyclar and let it sit cold for two or three days.


That sounds like a good plan, thanks BribieG. I'll give the gelatine a go first to drop some of the bigger stuff out, then follow up with the Polyclar. She'll be so bright they'll need sunglasses to drink it! B)


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## dj1984

might be a dumb question but what is racking off the lees?? i have looked everywhere and have not found a thing!


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## buttersd70

That means letting the pvpp settle at the bottom, and racking off it. This applies to polyclar VT, which is coarse enough to allow to settle. This is the type of polyclar that is available from the sponsers on this site.


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## dj1984

i knew there was an easy answer cheers buttersd70 AGAIN!!!


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## Goose

buttersd70 said:


> That means letting the pvpp settle at the bottom, and racking off it. This applies to polyclar VT, which is coarse enough to allow to settle. This is the type of polyclar that is available from the sponsers on this site.



I have a post keg chill haze problem I'd like to rectify on some carbonated beer.

Popular wisdom on this thread says that I need to filter after I treat with polyclar, yet it is also tasteless, non toxic and settles on the bottom. Does that mean I can just leave it in the keg and dispense the beer normally till its consumed without issue ?

Thanks
Goose


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## fraser_john

I would not leave it in the keg I was drinking, some of it WILL be picked up by the pickup tube. If you beer is already carbonated and in the keg, best method for polyclar would be to put it in, roll the keg around gently and then keg-to-keg filter it.

Some may have a different opinion though 

John


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## muckey

as butters said polyclar VT will settle to the bottom. You only need to filter if you want to dispense on the same day as you polyclar. If you give it at least 48 hours to settle then you wont need to filter

edit: I agree with fraser about not really wanting it in the keg. it doesn't really bother me in tiny amounts but others find it extremely unpalatable


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## Bribie G

I don't keg as yet (Target August) but when I do so, I would most certainly Polyclar in the secondary / cold crash vessel, let it clear out then transfer to keg at that point. 

If it's going to sit around in a container waiting for its moment of glory in the kegerator it might as well wait its turn in the cold crash vessel as in the keg. The only reason I can think of for adding anything to a keg is to make it drinkable quicker than otherwise, so we are talking gelatine or isinglass here, or adding sugar to carb it up so it can be served immediately on chilling to drinking temperature. Polyclar doesn't make anything drinkable sooner, it just prevents/removes chill haze so I would personally not add it to the keg but do it in cold conditioning beforehand.

Edit: I wrote it's moment of glory instead of its moment of glory, a sin that I regularly castigate others for. Another brain cell destroyed.


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## buttersd70

I tend to agree with John that a certain amount will get picked up by the pickup tube, even after it's settled. Theres a world of difference between transferring off the lees from an uncarbonated beer running out of a tap in a cube or a fermenter, and having it settle in a keg, then having it pushed up a pickup tube by the top pressure. I don't know for certain, but I would tend to think that it would likely settle, but then get roused again on the pour, because unlike yeast dropping in the keg, I don't think it would form a compact sediment, and would be easily disturbed.....

That being said, I've accidently got a good whack of it in a keg once in the past...it did drop after a few days, and there was enough of a yeast sediment in the keg to hold it in place and not come out noticibly (I'm a 'dip tube up off the bottom' kind of guy). But theres a big difference again between an accidental good whack, and a full dose.....

2c


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## daemon

Digging up a slightly older post, but I thought some people may be interested in the difference when using Polyclar. I've brewed a Lager recently that didn't clear up as expected and had significant haze after two weeks in the keg (@ 4c). Not sure if it was the rice adjunct, lower mash temp or S-189 yeast (or a combo of all!) that's to blame but I normally don't make Lagers.

Since this was for a competition, I wanted to ensure the clarity was spot on. Here's what it looked like out of the keg:




Colour was spot on, taste seems to be close to style (Aussie Pale Lager) but just not visually pleasing. 

I let the glass warm up to room temp but it still seemed to be just as cloudy.



Since I couldn't tell if it was chill haze or not, I decided to try both gelatin and polyclar to see which produced the best result. I just used two 7oz glasses to do some test samples with before I did the whole keg.

Here's the result after two days:


On the left is the gelatin and on the right is the polyclar. Although it's hard to tell with my photography, the glass with polyclar was noticeably clearer. 

And here's the polyclar vs a fresh glass from the keg (both at 4c):


I shouldn't need to point out which is which  Just making up enough to clear up the whole keg now, I'm quite happy with the difference!


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## BjornJ

Today I ordered some polyclar from Craftbrewer as the local homebrew shop did not have it, looking forward to trying!

1: But do I have to now rip apart a computer at work to build a stir plate or can I just rattle it around in a bottle with some water? (please say yes  )

2: Do I add this to the cube after a week in the fridge IN STEAD OF isinglass or IN ADDITION TO isinglass?

3: Can I add this and/or isinglass and then bottle a couple of days later or do I have to siphon off to another empty cube, then bottle?


I add isinglass after say 5 days of the cube being in the fridge, then leaving for another couple of days, then leave it outside the fridge for a couple of days to recover to room temperature and let off any excess CO2 before bottling.

4: Is this still a good practice, using polyclar or do I have to bottle cold to not rouse any sediment/haze kind of things?

Would appreciate any pointers,

thanks


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## muckey

I normally crash chill and gelatine to assist the yeast to flocculate and then after at least 8 hours add poly clar for the other haze issues and leave for at least 48 hours before racking to keg

2c - works for me :icon_cheers:


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## DJR

I don't bother rehydrating/stirring the polyclar, I just dump it on top of the brew in the fermenter. Works fine. Rehydrating/stirring is for when you have no time to let it mix and settle, like in a commercial brewery where PVPP is dosed in about 15 minutes before filtering. On a homebrew level it doesn't really matter. It will settle to the bottom and with enough time and cold temperatures will bond out the tannins/polyphenols.

I have a batch that came out super clear just using this method and a little gelatine, when it is carbed up I'll take a piccy.

If you sign up on ispcorp.com you can get a trial of Polyclar for free but it does take a little while to come. An 8oz trial pack of VT will last ages, at least 40 batches work at 5g per batch. I ordered VT, Brewbrite and the one that is mixed with Silica Xerogel, the product code escapes me at the moment.


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## DJR

Oh and if you're bottling and worried about rousing the polyclar/yeast from the fermenter, what i'd do is rack it while still cold into another fermenter and bulk prime in that, let that come up to room temp and them bottle, so the cake stays intact.

You know, all this technology trickling down probably makes it hard for brewers to win comps who don't know about it, i reckon a bright beer is worth at least an extra 5 points on a judging sheet


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## DJR

Here is promised piccies.

Brew for this one was >90% pils and a bit of vienna. Dosed with Polyclar VT at about 1020 SG then Gelatine at 1010 before it was kept in the primary fermenter at about 8C for another 3 weeks (primary ferment was about 13C for 1 week - WLP833 is quick!).

No agitation/rehydration of Polyclar - just dumped on top.

It still needs to carb up and get a head but you get the idea.


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## buttersd70

I had a conversation with Ross about using polyclar in combination with geletine/issinglass. Given that the two products are opposite charges, I didn't want to cancel the effectiveness of one out with the other.

The main point is that you want to have some seperation in time, and allow the first product to work prior to adding the other. Ross advised that it's best to do your fining first, and then do the polyclar. The main reason for it being that the pvpp works better the clearer (from yeast) the beer is.

I normally crash chill then geletine; then when the yeast starts dropping, do the polyclar. As Muckey said, several hours seperation. So I normally turn fridge on at night to chill, geletine in the morning, polyclar at night. Then either wait 15mins and filter, or (since I busted my filter membrane <_< ) 48hrs and rack to keg.....or in your case, it would be rack off to bulk prime.

But different people have different methods....this is what works for me. There are usually more than one way to skin a cat


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## Online Brewing Supplies

A quick note :Issinglass will remove yeast and chill haze as well! The thing is you must chill your beer till you get chill haze first , then the issinglass can bind it up in its matrix along with the yeast. You must mix issinglass very well before adding to the chilled beer. I have only ever used PVPP as an experiment .Cant say I need it as I dont expect my beer to be around that long.
GB


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## BjornJ

Thanks guys,
will then try both by the sound of it.
I have started thinking it's because of using isinglass that my east sediment is always "fluffy" in the bottle and never settles down hard so will either try polyclar alone and the combo on different beers or just use less isinglass than I have before.

Bjorn


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## buttersd70

BjornJ said:


> Thanks guys,
> will then try both by the sound of it.
> I have started thinking it's because of using isinglass that my east sediment is always "fluffy" in the bottle and never settles down hard so will either try polyclar alone and the combo on different beers or just use less isinglass than I have before.
> 
> Bjorn



fluffy sediment sounds like the dose is too high.


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## muckey

Gryphon Brewing said:


> A quick note :Issinglass will remove yeast and chill haze as well! The thing is you must chill your beer till you get chill haze first ,



have to agree with this. I believe fining and clearing works much more efficiently and quicker no matter if you use isinglass or gelatin + PVPP

The fact that the long haze molecule has formed makes it easier to bond with whatever clearing agent and then drop out of solution.

as an aside, I'm assuming you've obviously used isinglass GB. How long does it normally take to clear using this method?


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Muckey said:


> have to agree with this. I believe fining and clearing works much more efficiently and quicker no matter if you use isinglass or gelatin + PVPP
> 
> The fact that the long haze molecule has formed makes it easier to bond with whatever clearing agent and then drop out of solution.
> 
> as an aside, I'm assuming you've obviously used isinglass GB. How long does it normally take to clear using this method?


I have a cool room (stock ) so I am not in a rush to get the beer out.I usually leave it for at least a day to settle.My method is to transfer to a keg , chill the crap out of it add the issinglass and shake like shite. Issingass needs to come in contact to remove yeast and haze, simply pouring it in wont work.Another system that worked well in the past was to put the whole fermenter in the cool room add the issinglass and stir like hell. After a day or two I could see right to the bottom of the fermenter, crystal clear. Issinglass can be tricky to get the addition amount just right , like as butters mentioned you can get it fluffy, this is a problem in a keg but not so much in the fermenter.I would recommend doing trial runs on the beer with differing amounts of issinglass first before dosing.there is a good amount of info on the net about these trial runs.
GB


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## Katherine

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I have a cool room (stock ) so I am not in a rush to get the beer out.I usually leave it for at least a day to settle.My method is to transfer to a keg , chill the crap out of it add the issinglass and shake like shite. Issingass needs to come in contact to remove yeast and haze, simply pouring it in wont work.Another system that worked well in the past was to put the whole fermenter in the cool room add the issinglass and stir like hell. After a day or two I could see right to the bottom of the fermenter, crystal clear. Issinglass can be tricky to get the addition amount just right , like as butters mentioned you can get it fluffy, this is a problem in a keg but not so much in the fermenter.I would recommend doing trial runs on the beer with differing amounts of issinglass first before dosing.there is a good amount of info on the net about these trial runs.
> GB



Isnt Issinglass a bladder of a fish? you dont eat meat?


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Katie said:


> Isnt Issinglass a bladder of a fish? you dont eat meat?


And I dont drink Issinglass either . :lol: Well if I do, I dont want to know about it.
GB


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## BjornJ

Gryphon Brewing said:


> My method is to transfer to a keg , chill the crap out of it add the issinglass and shake like shite. Issingass needs to come in contact to remove yeast and haze, simply pouring it in wont work.Another system that worked well in the past was to put the whole fermenter in the cool room add the issinglass and stir like hell. After a day or two I could see right to the bottom of the fermenter, crystal clear.



Is that true? Never thought of that, I just thought I should pour it carefully in the secondary/cube so it would make a "slimey" surface layer before sinking and dragging stuff with it down to the bottom.
I thought I had read that somewhere, to just let it settle on top but it does seem to make sense to shake it around, though.

Hmm, the more I try to learn here, the more new questions pop up!
Even for things I thought I had figured out by now :huh: 

Bjorn


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## gibbocore

I don't use issinglass, i have to keep my beers Vegan.


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## Katherine

gibbocore said:


> I don't use issinglass, i have to keep my beers Vegan.



you eat meat?


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## gibbocore

Katie said:


> you eat meat?




heaps of my mates don't

don't ask.
the perils of punk rock.


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## buttersd70

In cask beers, the isinglass is added, the bung put in, then the cask is rolled down the line, then rolled into the truck, then rolled to get off the truck, then rolled down into the cellar....
All that rolling and shaking, lets the isinglass impact with the yeast, and then lets the larger yeast flocs impact with each other, causing even larger flocs, which, due to gravity, sink like a stone....

I read an article once (can't remember where), where an Engilsh cellarman was talking about clearing the casks, and rousing it to promote flocculation...he reckoned that third rouse was the charm.


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## muckanic

buttersd70 said:


> I had a conversation with Ross about using polyclar in combination with geletine/issinglass. Given that the two products are opposite charges, I didn't want to cancel the effectiveness of one out with the other.
> 
> The main point is that you want to have some seperation in time, and allow the first product to work prior to adding the other. Ross advised that it's best to do your fining first, and then do the polyclar. The main reason for it being that the pvpp works better the clearer (from yeast) the beer is.



It's a bit of a technical point, but all this stuff about finings carrying electrical charges is strictly incorrect. The molecule has to be neutral in order to stand alone. Having said that, molecules can have localised charge distributions that are responsible for things like hydrogen bonding.

My $0.02 worth is that gelatine is theoretically a bit much of a blunt instrument that potentially can take out more than you want it to (as in stripping body). The nice part about PVPP is its specificity. I can't see the point of using both. Isinglass will specifically take out yeast, but I tend to think that what a lot of people think is yeast haze often isn't.


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## Mitcho89

Hey guys,

I was just reading this post about shaking instead of stirring......yes I can see that you would introduce oxygen into the solution even if it's just a little bit but I have a carbonator cap (coke bottle thread with a ball lock male fitting). I could stick in the solution, squeeze out all the oxygen through the valve, then put in a few psi of CO2 and be able to shake the sh!t out of it? 

Would this work? I hope so because it would be much easier then stirring for up to an hour.....

Cheers!


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## argon

Mitcho89 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I was just reading this post about shaking instead of stirring......yes I can see that you would introduce oxygen into the solution even if it's just a little bit but I have a carbonator cap (coke bottle thread with a ball lock male fitting). I could stick in the solution, squeeze out all the oxygen through the valve, then put in a few psi of CO2 and be able to shake the sh!t out of it?
> 
> Would this work? I hope so because it would be much easier then stirring for up to an hour.....
> 
> Cheers!



There's other threads about polyclar and the method of additions. Personally I've found it works just fine adding it dry straight into primary.


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## edddy57

I put in a small jar of boiled water with minimal head space (still hot) and then shake for 45 mins. Usually carry around while I do other things. I find that boiled H2o has little oxygen and the shaking in the initial phase while hot allows you to unscrew the jar slightly to release any air that might be in there. Never had a problem with oxidisation

Have had crystal clear lighter coloured beers. These I usually gelatin first and leave 5 days chilled; but have found the slightly darker beers like an ESB where I tend to use a high floc yeast dont seem to clear the haze as well just using the polyclar (even though I chill for a few days first). So was interested in the comment that the polyclar works better if the yeast has substantially settled out first. Could that be a factor?
eddy


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## Mikedub

last couple of times I've added polyclar (disolved in boiling water) I find clumps of it floating on the wort the next day, should it all drop through or is this normal?


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## [email protected]

Mikedub said:


> last couple of times I've added polyclar (disolved in boiling water) I find clumps of it floating on the wort the next day, should it all drop through or is this normal?



No not normal for me. 
How long did you agitate it for?
I find half hour of constant rolling and swirling in a glass jar works very well, i use a sanitised brew paddle thing to very gently move the top of the wort for a few seconds just before tipping in and it distributes very evenly.


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## argon

I've never noted it clumping. But saying that i usually put the polyclar in with boiling water in a jar then on the stir plate for at least half an hour. Seems to be well hydrated by then. 

Also when adding the hot fluid to the cold beer the hot portion tends to dissipate very evenly accross the surface of the beer before dorpping through the beer and doing it's thing.


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## Mikedub

Beer4U said:


> How long did you agitate it for?




after about about 5 min of shaking I got bored and figured 'its plastic, it shouldn't be absorbing at all' so i threw it in, the clumps are gritty, that why I think its the polyclar, 
further reading of another polyclar thread since has me thinking more jiggy jiggy needed
cheers


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## jacknohe

Mikedub said:


> after about about 5 min of shaking I got bored and figured 'its plastic, it shouldn't be absorbing at all' so i threw it in, the clumps are gritty, that why I think its the polyclar,
> further reading of another polyclar thread since has me thinking more jiggy jiggy needed
> cheers




I've never noticed clumps either. My process isn't exactly by the book though. I don't have a stir plate but I wouldn't mind a 2nd hand milkshake maker. Instead I use my electric beater with only one of the two metal whisks to mix the Polyclar and boiled water for about 5 mins. Pour into fermenter as even as practically possible and then stir gently the top couple of inches. Of course all implements are santisied prior.


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## TheWiggman

Reviving the dead, but I'm having zero luck with polyclar. I recently did an Aussie lager (80% grains, 20% sugar) and chilled to 0°C. Then -

Mixed 7gm of Polyclar 70/30+ with 100ml of just-boiled water
Stir plate for 1h
Tipped Polyclar mix in secondary, then racked across
Left for 24h at 0°C
I then kegged and bottled a few. It's been in the keg 8 weeks and my pours since are still typical of home brew - minor haze, nothing outstanding. This is the second attempt at it, the first I added through the airlock to the primary (0.5°C at the time) and kegged 2 days later. As far as I'm concerned I have got zero performance out of it. My Polyclar is from Brewman so I'm assuming this is the right product this thread refers to. Any ideas?


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## Dan2

I've always done pretty much as you do, but filter after the 24 hrs. They say it's okay to filter 5-10 minutes after but I have plenty of time.
The suggested method for not filtering is to leave 2-3 days


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## NewtownClown

Polyclar PVPP is what is being dicussed here
Polyclar 70/30 is also known as Brewbrite and is a _kettle_ fining made up of carrageenan and modified PVPP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktpKsLH62nU#t=27? and I am unaware as to how effective it is as a fining agent in beer as opposed to wort
Polyclar is very effective against chill haze, as has been attested to in this thread. If haze persists, it may be due to permanent haze or poorly flocculating yeast...


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## TheWiggman

Crap, that would answer it. I haven't actually seen that distinction anywhere and every search I do for Polyclar either points to this forum or leads me to a retailer. Not all is lost, I'm running lowish on whirlfloc tablets so there's that sorted. Aaaaand just found a site sponsor who sells PVPP.

I can confirm 70/30 does shit-all to address chill haze.


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## TheWiggman

I'm back.

I now have BrewBrite and 70/30 in stock. This post from MHB contradicts what you're saying Newtown so I'm back to being clueless again. What I CAN see is that BrewBrite is specifically used for late kettle additions to improve wort clarity and prevent chill haze.

Polyclar 70/30+ isn't even available on the Ashland website (manufacturers of Polyclar products). There is however Polyclar Plus 730, which is both similar in naming and describes what MHB says to a tee. It's use is described as per recommendations for PVPP in this thread (which 730 contains).
It's also the method I used when I tried it on my fermented beer, and did not get clear beer as a result.

So what do I actually have in this container marked 70/30+ at home?


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## Brewman_

TheWiggman said:


> So what do I actually have in this container marked 70/30+ at home?


So you got it from me?

Is it the the Polyclear 70/30 +


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## TheWiggman

Polyclar I presume, and yes from you Steve.


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## Brewman_

OK, so I will try to clarify.

Polyclar Brewbrite. This is a blend of PVPP and Carrageenan. This is added to the Kettle within the last 10 minutes of the boil. It is a kettle finning and it replaces the need for say a Whirfloc tablet. It is an off white very fine powder. This product is very good as a kettle finning and also provides for protection against chill and permanent haze in the beer.

Polyclar 70/30+ is a blend of PVPP and Silica Xerogel. It is also referred to as Polyclar Plus 730 - same stuff. This is added after fermentation and as far as I understand is used prior to filtering.

I use Brewbrite in every beer I do. I find the beers usually drop clear, well clear enough me.

I use Polyclar 70/30 only if I really want to polish a beer for a show.

I hope that helps to clarify / clear things up.


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## Black n Tan

So polyclar 730 is really for beer that will be filtered? I use Polyclar VT for fining my beer, it is a coarser grade of PVPP (no silica) which will settle over 3 or so days and therefore doesn't require filtering.


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## Brewman_

I don't think you have to filter to get some results. I've never tried it without filtering.

For best results then filter, it is what I have always done with it.

Do you chill the beer before adding the Polyclar VT?


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## Black n Tan

Not sure I would want to be drinking the PVPP/silica so filtering is probably the way to go with polyclar 730.

Yes I chill the beer before adding the polyclar VT. Typically I cold crash then add gelatin, wait 2 days add polyclar VT then rack it to keg after 3 days. The colder you get it the better the result.


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## Brewman_

Yes the same when filtering. If I filter at -1 the beer is absolutely sparkling.

I sometimes add gelatine too during the cold conditioning and I find that improves the clarity of the beer a lot without any filtering.

But these days my normal process is just Brewbrite into the kettle at the end of the boil.


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## TheWiggman

I've done 2 brews now with BrewBrite. I only noticed tonight that my SNPA clone looked quite clear for a beer that hadn't been cold crashed or filtered. Used Denny's Favourite. Early signs are promising.


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## Mardoo

I love Brewbrite. I've used it about 10 times now and it definitely makes a difference. I've only used Polyclar once but teamed with gelatin it left crystal clear beer.


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## Kingy

I might have to give this brewbrite a go. Sick of running out of whirlfloc and relising when its time to use it. Csn order some with my grain order each time. 
what sort of dosage rates are you using?


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