# Electric Urn. Biab. Nochill. Nocube



## Bribie G (30/12/08)

Electric Urn, Biab, No Chill, No Cube

My first All grain brew was a bog standard BIAB exercise, Yorkshire Bitter, No-chill using a cube. For my second brew - a Burton Ale I brewed this morning, I made a couple of tweaks to the procedure to try and improve some issues that 'grated' on me.


TWEAK 1

Using the urn, when it came to transferring to the cube, it occurred to me that, whilst this is the next logical step for a three vessel system, in the case of my 40L electric urn the wort is already in a sterile container which radiates heat far better than a plastic cube, so why fix what ain't broke?

So after removing the hop bag I put the lid on and switched off, with some residual boiling and steam coming out of the nostrils on the top of the lid. The lid is a good fit and any air being sucked in during cooling will flow through the two 'nostril' holes , which I stuffed with some cotton wool.

There was no hop trub and , having been whirlflocced, any break was nicely coagulated and on the bottom.
It’s nicely cooling and should hopefully be at ambient by the morning.

TWEAK 2

I've been reading a lot about No-chill over-isomerising the hop compounds already dissolved in the hot wort, (ThirstyBoy you’re on :icon_cheers: ) and leading to unplanned bitterness. So I had reduced the bittering hops and delayed the flavouring hops to last ten mins of boil. Tomorrow, for the aroma hops (two plugs EKG) I intend to make a hop tea in my dedicated glass teapot and pour into fermenter. Then spread the now soft hop flowers as a bed in a sanitized wire strainer, and after doing a whirlpool with sanitized paddle, run the wort from Urn to fermenter through the hop bed in the strainer and hopefully catch some break, with some splashing on the bottom (good!). Meanwhile I’ll smack my pack and get it going as a starter. I like to pitch a 'fighting' yeast.

While the yeast is brewing up I’ll put the fermenter into the brew fridge to cool it to pitch temp.

All the above contingent on Allah sparing me of course. 

CONCLUSIONS

One less vessel, quicker cooling so hopefully less isomerisation, one less potential infection point.

I don't think Hot Side Aeration would be any more likely than running boiling wort into cube

Good cold side aeration

Smoother hop profile although of course not identical to a quick-chilled wort

Basically, in BIAB with an urn, the urn takes on the role of 

HLT

then Mash Tun

then Kettle

So I've rationalised it as just letting the urn take on a fourth job and stand in for the cube.. Now I've got to get the urn further integrated as fermenter and then keg. joking.

There should be a bottle to take along to the Jan. BABBs (Brisbane) meeting for peer appraisal tasties.


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## Jakechan (30/12/08)

Good to read your improvements Bribie. Im using an urn as well and it also does the lot, although mine's only 30 litres.

Cheers,
Jake


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## Jakechan (30/12/08)

You say you BIAB. Do you have a custom made bag that fits the inside of the urn?


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## Bribie G (30/12/08)

Jakechan said:


> You say you BIAB. Do you have a custom made bag that fits the inside of the urn?



Yup, Swiss Voile from Spotlight made up for me by my local dressmaker lady Joan. I did up a diagram with dimensions, she ran it up in n minutes where n is a small number, put in a drawstring and was only going to charge me five bucks. I pressed more money on her, cheap at three times the price :icon_cheers: 

People like Joan are living Australian Treasures  

PS when Cannibal Smurf has some time he's going to put his video of my first BIAB exercise on Youtube.


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## flattop (30/12/08)

Bribie, My urn has a clamp down lid.

It would be little work to drill a hole in it and fit an airlock grommet (although i am loathe to try it).
Potentially you could use one vessel for the lot (if the lid seals well).

Oh and i think Allah doesn't drink...best find new gods, i can lend you some of mine


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## Bribie G (30/12/08)

Grain to brain in one vessel - drink from tap of course :icon_cheers: I lived in Turkey for a while and got into the habit of saying "Inshallah" - God Willing - whenever describing future plans. Of course the Christian equivalent is "If you want to give God a laugh, tell him your plans" :lol:


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## flattop (30/12/08)

Sorry, no carbonation, unless you are thinking of redesigning the urn to take c02.

BTW Jake yes the bag fits in the urn... do a search plenty of info on it.


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## Thirsty Boy (30/12/08)

hot break material is bad for beer - this is the main reason why I think that no-chill in the kettle is a bad idea - and putting the stuff into your fermentor is even worse in my opinion.

This is definitely a case of pushing it to the absolute limit and maybe going to far.

BIAB is a marginal technique - it works, but its on the edge
No-chill, even when decanting to the cube, is a marginal technique - it works and works well... but by all the theory, it shouldn't
No-chill in the kettle - even worse, with added infection risks
Fermenting on your hop and/or break trub - is one of those things that you "might get away with... in an ale" but which is pretty much universally accepted as being bad for your beer

Put em all together.... helll, it might be OK, but you are asking for trouble on pretty much every single level that I can think of.

You could think of the things you suggest as tweaks.. but I would call them shortcuts and suggest that they come with all the inherent risk of shortcuts. Any one of them buy themselves would most likely be OK - all of them together?? Good luck.

TB


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## Bribie G (31/12/08)

Ran off the wort through the hop bed into the fermenter as planned, and after the overnight rest the wort came out absolutely crystal clear. Not one crumb of hot break passed over so that was great news. Hop aroma in the wort (drank the hydrometer sample of course  ) is mind blowing. I still maintain that I'm happier having the wort sit overnight in a stainless steel sterile container rather than two transfers (kettle to plastic cube then back to fermenter). My 2c and time will, as they say, tell :icon_cheers:

edit: of course the fermenting in the kettle idea was a bit of end of year spoof and obviously would be a waste of a good brew.


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## Ross (31/12/08)

Best of luck with it BribieG, really hope you don't pick up any infections....looking forward to trying it.  


cheers Ross


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## Jakechan (31/12/08)

flattop said:


> BTW Jake yes the bag fits in the urn... do a search plenty of info on it.


Yeah, I realised he has a bag as this is what BIAB is  
I was just wondering whether it was custom made (as it is) or if he found something that fits.
Cheers,
Jake


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## Thirsty Boy (2/1/09)

BribieG said:


> Ran off the wort through the hop bed into the fermenter as planned, and after the overnight rest the wort came out absolutely crystal clear. Not one crumb of hot break passed over so that was great news. Hop aroma in the wort (drank the hydrometer sample of course  ) is mind blowing. I still maintain that I'm happier having the wort sit overnight in a stainless steel sterile container rather than two transfers (kettle to plastic cube then back to fermenter). My 2c and time will, as they say, tell :icon_cheers:
> 
> edit: of course the fermenting in the kettle idea was a bit of end of year spoof and obviously would be a waste of a good brew.



Ahh, then you are just no-chilling in the fermentor, I misunderstood what you intended - lots of people doing that - through a hop back too.. nice. Careful with too much late hopping though, Its my opinion that if you NC you will get significant bittering from it that needs to be planned for.

The reason I prefer and advocate the use of a "cube" for no chilling, is that the cube (and possibly a corny keg) is the only method of no-chilling that addresses ALL the issues that have been raised with doing no-chill, except of course the chilling bit. Chilling in a fermentor or chilling in the kettle, leave bits of potential "bad" unaddressed. That doesn't mean that people can't or aren't doing it successfully those ways, just that they are higher risk methods. And your brewing practice is full enough of risks so that avoiding one or two wouldn't hurt.

But you will almost certainly be fine. Hope you are.

TB


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## browndog (2/1/09)

How many AGs have you done so far BribieG? You have to learn to crawl before you can run the 4 minute mile mate.
Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, why not just do a brew like we all do. If you are searching for simpicity, drain your kettle to your fermenter, let it cool then stick in the fridge and get it down to pitching temp. How is that for simplicity !!!! As far as over isomerisation in no chill beer goes, IBF if I can detect ANY difference, but I have to say I'm just a hick from Ipswich and don't know %^&* from clay. BribieG it aint black magic mate, it's a piece of piss, ignore the hyperbole and just brew. Here endeth the lesson.

good luck
Browndog


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## Jakechan (2/1/09)

I say reinvent that wheel Bribie 
I'm all for learning from people's past experiences, otherwise I wouldn't be here on AHB soaking up all the great knowledge, but sometimes you have to think outside the box too. And without people doing this innovation just dies in the arse.

As for letting your wort cool in the stainless urn, I cant see how this could be an issue if the urn has a lid (as Bribie's does and so does mine - preferably air-locked).
It is already clean, so all that is happening is that it is just going to sit there a bit longer. I think there is much greater danger of infection when you whack in a spoon to stir up the wort for yeast pitching (as I have just done this morning with my Black Choc Ale )

Keep us informed of the progress Bribie! (unless it gets infected of course, then just PM me - no need to go public  )

Cheers,
Jake


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## browndog (2/1/09)

Not trying to kill off any inventiveness Jake, just trying to help simplify his brew day and remove another possible source of infection by transfering cool wort to the fermenter. By nochilling straight to your fermenter, you have the added bonus of the hot wort sanitising your fermenter for you, how good is that! And as said in other posts you would have to be adding a heap of late low alpha hops or adding high alpha hops late to get any extra noticable bitterness.


cheers

Browndog


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## Bribie G (2/1/09)

Latest report:

Although the system worked well I'll probably go with Browndog's suggestion and put into fermenter then after a couple of hours put into brew fridge and chill that way. It was 35 degrees in the garage due to heatwave that should abate tomorrow, and it wasn't possible to put a 40L urn in the fridge so by the time I had got the fermenter down to pitching temp, I didn't get to pitch until over 24 hours which is opening a nasty window for infection.

You've gotta try these things I suppose. On the other hand, cooling in the urn might be a different story when we get down to 10 degree nights six months from now.


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## jimbo82 (2/1/09)

My first two AG brews I've done what Bribie described, I don't have a wort chiller and why decant into a cube if it can cool down in the kettle? I find the wort is a lot clearer the next day, all the junk has sunk to the bottom if its not disturbed and I siphon the wort off the top straight into my fermenter where I pitch the yeast straight away. I figured that boiling something for an hour would kill just about anything in or on the kettle so transferring to a cube is just another infection risk. And I'm more likely to spill it!


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## flattop (2/1/09)

I think that it doesn't disprove the method, simply the ambient temperature is too high, in Melbourne today its around 18*c and would easily cool in a few hours to pitching temp.
I think i am likely to try draining to the fermentor but not refrigerating due to lack of space in the fridge, thus i will still have to do a no chill method.

A bit sorry my joke about banging the airlock into the stainless lid missed it's mark.....

Keep pushing the limits Bribie otherwise we would all be sitting around a fire in loincloths with a square rock wanting to invent a wheel (and i look shite in a loincloth).
As soon as these damn rellies go i will be breaking out the urn and giving it a spin.


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## buttersd70 (2/1/09)

browndog said:


> And as said in other posts you would have to be adding a heap of late low alpha hops or adding high alpha hops late to get any extra noticable bitterness.



I think browndog is right here, that the extra bitterness is going to depend a lot on what is added late in the boil. When I converted from chill to NC, it was before this issue was raised in depth. I made no changes to my late hop scheduling, and the first NC batches were drunk at the same time as my last chilled batch. (English Mild.) I didn't pick up on any noticable difference in the bitterness at all (and as many people know, I like my Milds and Bitters so that the hop is just poking its head out from behind the malt). I think I was still on EKG throughout, at that point. 

When Muckey started AG, his first 3 batches were DrSmurtos Golden Ale NC, starting with the recipe exactly as written, no deviation at all. The second batch was done the same, but with the bittering reduced by about 4 IBU (about 15% reduction, originally 32IBU), with the adjustment being made to the 60min addition only; the late hopping was based on weight/volume, and as such, was left alone (apart from changing to 1/2cascade instead of just amarillo). This version was noticably less bitter. It went from a good beer to a sessionable beer, it had a lot more balance. The interesting point on this is, a bottle from this batch was given to DrS (who chills) at the case swap for him to try. His comments were that it was one of the closest versions to his own that he had tasted. So the conclusion I draw from that is that the higher alpha hopping (6.2 for Cascade and 8.2 for amarillo) late in the schedule makes a fair difference, wheras the lower alpha (4.2 ekg) made very little difference. For full comparison, my EKG was 0.75g/L at 20,2 and the GA is 0.75g/L at 10,5. Obviously, it would be more conclusive with side by side of the exact same recipe.

Oh, and Muckey brews on my gear.  

Only putting forward my own observations on this, obviously everyone needs to draw their own conclusions.


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## browndog (2/1/09)

flattop said:


> I think that it doesn't disprove the method, simply the ambient temperature is too high, in Melbourne today its around 18*c and would easily cool in a few hours to pitching temp.
> I think i am likely to try draining to the fermentor but not refrigerating due to lack of space in the fridge, thus i will still have to do a no chill method.
> 
> A bit sorry my joke about banging the airlock into the stainless lid missed it's mark.....
> ...



You might be surprised how long 20 odd litres of wort takes to cool Flattop, when I usually finish my brews about 5 in the arvo and have found the wort to be anywhere from 25-35C the next morning.

cheers

Browndog


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## Thirsty Boy (4/1/09)

buttersd70 said:


> I think browndog is right here, that the extra bitterness is going to depend a lot on what is added late in the boil. When I converted from chill to NC, it was before this issue was raised in depth. I made no changes to my late hop scheduling, and the first NC batches were drunk at the same time as my last chilled batch. (English Mild.) I didn't pick up on any noticable difference in the bitterness at all (and as many people know, I like my Milds and Bitters so that the hop is just poking its head out from behind the malt). I think I was still on EKG throughout, at that point.
> 
> When Muckey started AG, his first 3 batches were DrSmurtos Golden Ale NC, starting with the recipe exactly as written, no deviation at all. The second batch was done the same, but with the bittering reduced by about 4 IBU (about 15% reduction, originally 32IBU), with the adjustment being made to the 60min addition only; the late hopping was based on weight/volume, and as such, was left alone (apart from changing to 1/2cascade instead of just amarillo). This version was noticably less bitter. It went from a good beer to a sessionable beer, it had a lot more balance. The interesting point on this is, a bottle from this batch was given to DrS (who chills) at the case swap for him to try. His comments were that it was one of the closest versions to his own that he had tasted. So the conclusion I draw from that is that the higher alpha hopping (6.2 for Cascade and 8.2 for amarillo) late in the schedule makes a fair difference, wheras the lower alpha (4.2 ekg) made very little difference. For full comparison, my EKG was 0.75g/L at 20,2 and the GA is 0.75g/L at 10,5. Obviously, it would be more conclusive with side by side of the exact same recipe.
> 
> ...



just so Butters - and thats what I meant. Late hop additions in No chill will give significant bittering that needs to be planned for... the key word being _planned_. If you are adding a moderate low alpha late addition... plan for bugger all effect, if its a large high alpha late addition, don't be at all surprised if it add a decent whack of bitterness over and above what you were expecting. Its all about planning to get what you are aiming for.

Jakechan / Flatop - no one is trying to stifle innovation. Its just that no-chilling in the kettle (or in bribie's case urn) isn't an innovation, its a well tried technique and a well worn argument topic. So your are getting the current rants of people (well me...) that have ranted about this before. There _are_ good reasons why no-chilling in the kettle might be bad, or at least less good than doing it in a fermentor or a cube. But then again, there are also plenty of people doing it just that way and making good beer. So you see where the debate arises.

What I and no doubt all the other more experienced brewers here are trying to do, is steer people towards the options that, in our experience, combine to what will provide Bribie and other new brewers with the best chance of _success_ - with ease and simplicity as important but secondary concerns. And that's what the innovations in this thread have been about - ease and simplicity, not particularly about successfully brewing a good beer.

Thus my lack of enthusiasm.

But brew on and innovate your arses off, as long as you are prepared for the odd disaster along the way, you will discover cool stuff, and thats only a good thing.

TB


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## Fatgodzilla (4/1/09)

> ... no-chilling in the kettle (or in bribie's case urn) isn't an innovation, its a well tried technique and a well worn argument topic. So your are getting the current rants of people (well me...) that have ranted about this before. There _are_ good reasons why no-chilling in the kettle might be bad, or at least less good than doing it in a fermentor or a cube. But then again, there are also plenty of people doing it just that way and making good beer. So you see where the debate arises...
> 
> TB



After reading this thread and going looking for other the previous arguments TB suggested (with limited success as the more correct search function criteria is hard to isolate) I'm assuming the problems associated with cooling the wort in the same container as the boiler is

1. Cooling the wort while still sitting on the hot break material - this HBM will add unwanted "impurities" to the wort (therefore why we remove the wort from the break material within a reasonable time frame if not asap). 

2. The chance of unwanted organisms "infecting" the cooling wort - assumption that the boiler is not airtight.

Are these the only problems areas within BribieG's methods - and that have nothing to do with everyone else's dogmatic like arguments?


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## flattop (4/1/09)

Fatgod, it also appears that the bitterness is on a knifes edge (from what i understand) it is much easier to have too much or too little from this method... correct me if i'm wrong.


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## Bribie G (4/1/09)

Had a sneaky first bottle of brew 01 - Yorkshire Bitter - and it's definitely crossed the Pennines and become a fairly bitter (in a nice way) beer like Manchester's Hydes or Boddingtons (used to be before it got taken over and screwed). So I'll definitely tone down the bittering hops in my next one. I used 45g Fuggles but didn't plan on it being so bitter because Fug. doesn't have a particularly high AA in comparison to some newer strains.
I'll cut back to 30g next YB brew for sure. 

Nope haven't got Beersmith going yet so not too good on predicting IBUs at the moment.

In my 02 Burton ale currently in primary I cut Fuggles to 30, Styrian Goldings to 30 but only for 10 minutes and 'wet hopped' when cool with a couple of plugs of EKG so It will be interesting to taste the results in a few weeks. I'll bring one to BABBs meeting.


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## browndog (4/1/09)

Fatgodzilla said:


> After reading this thread and going looking for other the previous arguments TB suggested (with limited success as the more correct search function criteria is hard to isolate) I'm assuming the problems associated with cooling the wort in the same container as the boiler is
> 
> 1. Cooling the wort while still sitting on the hot break material - this HBM will add unwanted "impurities" to the wort (therefore why we remove the wort from the break material within a reasonable time frame if not asap).
> 
> ...



Just trying to help the guy make beer as simply and with the best possible chance of a good outcome in my case FG.


cheers

Browndog


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## Thirsty Boy (5/1/09)

FG - 

That's mainly it - but add in 

3. HSA as a bonus. Sitting very hot and exposed to air at high temperatures for hours and hours... thats going to make your HSA come out if anything does.

None of those things is a certainty - they may or may not be an issue at all. But the are completely removed from the equation by racking to a cube and squeezing out the air... which is just why the cube technique was developed as it is.. to address and remove those issues. Decreasing the chance of bad and maximising the chance of good - plus giving you the bonus of "canned" wort with the flexibility of fermenting at a later date.

No chill in the kettle is practiced by enough people with success that it would be ignoring the blatant truth to say it is out and out bad. It obviously works... its just that with very little extra effort you can use a tried and true method that removes even the _possibility_ of those negative points. So that's what I advocate.

Bitterness is probably not any more of an issue than it is with any other NC variation... if you use a hop sock and remove the hops from the kettle prior to the cooling period. If you don't, then I reckon you will def get bitterness that you haven't bargained for and maybe the possibility of vegetal flavours from the hops being cooked in the hot wort for such an extended period of time?? Probably not though.

TB


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## Fatgodzilla (5/1/09)

> 3. HSA as a bonus. Sitting very hot and exposed to air at high temperatures for hours and hours... thats going to make your HSA come out if anything does.



Fair enough to raise the possibility as part of your argument.



> No chill in the kettle is practiced by enough people with success that it would be ignoring the blatant truth to say it is out and out bad. It obviously works... its just that with very little extra effort you can use a tried and true method that removes even the _possibility_ of those negative points. So that's what I advocate.



If it suits the individual circumstances, I'm happy for them. 




> Just trying to help the guy make beer as simply and with the best possible chance of a good outcome in my case FG.



I'm with you BD. In BribieG's case, he's a smart man with what appears to me a fair amount of practical brewing knowledge despite his inexperience at full AG - he looks an experienced kit / partial brewer (and after my brief visit to his garage just priior to Xmas, I know he makes a good beer). He also has a clean brewing regime that I know I should replicate.

I agree though that newer brewers be discouraged not to replicate the "no chill in the kettle" method until they understand what can go wrong so they can take the steps to minimalise infections that BribieG takes. I'll be sticking with the no chill to the cube routine as it suits me


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## Bribie G (5/1/09)

Just a disclaimer: I have nothing whatsoever against cubing _per se_, in fact I have two projects at the moment 

1. Going down to Sydney for a week after Aus.Day and I'll do a brew actually on Australia Day itself and cube it so I can pitch as soon as I get home. It will be the one for the February Bitter minicomp so I need to get ahead.

2. I make a partial fake Fosters / Melbourne style lager that I really like ( as quaffed by FatGodzilla :icon_cheers: ) and it has occurred to me that I'm making a rod for my own back by doing one kilo minimash after another so this week I'm going to do a full 4 or 5 kg mash / boil and split the result among 3 or 4 small cubes (topping up with boiling water if necessary to eliminate airspace - I have only sourced Bunnings ten litre ones, I'm looking for a tad smaller ). Voila: my own fresh wort supply and three or four quick and easy brews. Mix kit, pour my wort, pitch Notto.

Horses for courses.


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