# Burnt Rubber Taste



## livo (29/12/21)

Well it didn't take long for me to get my first batch(s) that is (are) "a bit off". The flavour I have is one that I'm sure others have experienced as I've had it before and remembered it immediately. I've read all the "Off flavour" descriptions and they don't mean much to me. I guess it's closest to Bakelite / chemically (more like burnt rubber to me). I'm wondering if it's something I did or environmental. I suspect heat / temperature control issues.

My first 3 batches were fine. All Cooper's cans and all done the same way. I did a Lager first then followed running 2 fermenters with another Lager and a Mexican Cerveza. No problems and the fermentations took 6-7 days both times with stable gravity readings for 2 consecutive days before bottling. Minimum Temperatures (for the area) were 15.6'C and 14.7'C and Maximums were 26.3'C and 25.4'C respectively. They were brewed inside my large uninsulated Colourbond shed so temperatures would be similar variation but probably less swinging about due to having some protection and the volume of fermentations. 2 weeks minimum wait time after bottling and I've enjoyed drinking all 3. They taste like beer. All bottled using white sugar for priming. I still have a few bottles left and the Mexican Cerveza is very nice. I've been putting 1 full bottle of Lager and 1/2 bottle of Cerveza in my jug and I like it. I used to drink the same mix 10 years ago. At one point I was using half can of each in 2 fermenters at a time and I bottled 50/50 brewed separately a few times as well. 

I did exactly the same sanitisation of the fermenters before batches 4 and 5 and mixed the kits the same way. Another Lager and this time a Draught. Bottle sanitisation and priming the same as well. One difference noted is that temperatures were different. A much lower minimum of 12.2'C and a much higher maximum at 30.0'C but again, inside the shed and with the volume I can't really say how much the temps of the brews swung about. Also fermentation was faster at only 4-5 days for same readings over 2 consecutive days, so I bottled. Maybe I bottled too early. These have been 3 weeks in the bottle. 1 week was the recent hot run of weather with 6 days in the high 20s up to + 35'C for 2 consecutive days. Not exactly a heat wave but pretty warm in the shed.

Is it likely / possible that the fast fermentation, early bottling and heat has caused this "off" taste. It is worse in the Lager, I think. I've never been good at identifying off flavours or causes.

The worry is that I had 2 other batches in fermentation when the hot weather hit and I measured the fermenter vessel outside surface at +30'c for 3 days. Another Lager and a Canadian Blonde which were in the FV for 10 and 8 days respectively and bottled on the same day. I'm a bit worried about them.

I've now built and have in use a temperature controlled fermentation chamber (fridge with STC1000) so if it was heat affected hopefully it wont happen again.

Am I on the right track thinking it was temperature control that is the problem? The beers look ok and you can't really smell anything wrong. Just the harsh taste of burnt plastic or rubber. I guess I'll find out if the 2 heat affected batches are the same and the one I've got in the fridge now is good because as far as I know everything else is consistent.


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## MHB (29/12/21)

It’s called Yeast Autolysis.
The main causes are temperature (too hot) and time (too long on the yeast cake).
Time to post one of the most useful documents I know of, again! Search (Ctrl F) for what you taste and have a read.
I would strongly recommend you get some control over your fermentation temperature, an STC-1000 or an Inkbird (site sponsor) and an old fridge...
Mark


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## livo (29/12/21)

Thanks Mark,
I've already done it. Bought a fridge and STC1000 that is, and it's already in use. I suspected as much and I'm aware of autolysis but I never knew that this was the flavour of it. Now I know and hopefully it is a thing of the past. I was pretty sure it isn't an infection. I'll certainly have a read of the document. I doubt it was too much time on the yeast cake as it was out and bottled in less than 5 days but certainly temperature could have been an issue. If that's the case then there isn't much hope for the 2 batches I bottled last week after sitting in the FVs in the heat. 

My first 3 batches would have wobbled around a bit in temperature but never exceeded the maximum on the can instructions of 27'C. The affected batches possibly did and the latest ones did for certain.

Can this condition also occur during the bottle carbonation? I don't have a cellar and storage at reasonable temperature will be an issue for me in summer.

I've just been down to the shed (beer fridge) and the Lager is worse affected than the Draught. They are both still drinkable (just) and with a mix of good Cerveza the taste is barely discernible. I wouldn't offer it to anybody.

Edit: There it is. Burned Rubber. and I've answered my own second question. Thanks.


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## An Ankoù (30/12/21)

Your temperature control should sort everything out, but, as a matter of interest, why not try fermenting one at ambient 30+C with Voss or one of the other kveik isolates- I don't like Voss myself although others swear by it- Opshaug would be my choice as it's much cleaner and not so orangy. Alternatively, you could use a saison yeast as these are quit happy up to 35C, BUT they need to be allowed to ferment out completely as their genetic structure allows them to reduce ALL polysaccharides to fermentable sugars. You'll need to bleach your fermenters afterwards, too, as they are hard to get rid of.


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## duncbrewer (30/12/21)

I'd say that 27 is very hot for a lager ferment, unless you were using opshaug under pressure and then it might be a bit cool!
Lager is the most difficult " beer " to make well, but really easy to make.


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## Morgz (30/12/21)

LIVO - your beers will be out of this world in comparison to your last batches once starting fermentation temperature control. Instantly and overnight. Enjoy the ride mate, Merry Christmas.


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## Rhyan Watts (30/12/21)

I had a similar burnt rubber smell(smells like a new sheet of rubber from Bunnings) and mine was the water and chlorine/chloramine in it. If you want to test you can just buy water from coles etc and use that.


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## duncbrewer (30/12/21)

or add some sod met to your tap water.


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## Hangover68 (30/12/21)

livo said:


> Thanks Mark,
> I've already done it. Bought a fridge and STC1000 that is, and it's already in use. I suspected as much and I'm aware of autolysis but I never knew that this was the flavour of it. Now I know and hopefully it is a thing of the past. I was pretty sure it isn't an infection. I'll certainly have a read of the document. I doubt it was too much time on the yeast cake as it was out and bottled in less than 5 days but certainly temperature could have been an issue. If that's the case then there isn't much hope for the 2 batches I bottled last week after sitting in the FVs in the heat.
> 
> My first 3 batches would have wobbled around a bit in temperature but never exceeded the maximum on the can instructions of 27'C. The affected batches possibly did and the latest ones did for certain.
> ...



5 days from fermenter to bottle is way to short, kit cans i'd leave nearly a full 2 weeks to allow time to clear and clean up.
Now you re controlling the temp, get a good lager yeast and let go for 3-4 weeks at 9-12c.


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## livo (30/12/21)

No chlorine, or anything else. I have filter the wrigglers and red worms out. Thanks for all the advice. I do intend on using some cold yeast for lager but I need to look into it yet. What is recommended? I knew 5 days was short but it had fermented out and I had 1005 readings 2 consecutive days. If it's heat affected then leaving it for longer wouldn't have helped anyway.

I hold very little hope of the following 2 brews as they were even hotter.


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## GregTheBrewer (31/12/21)

Fermentis W34/70 is a very good lager yeast Livo. Use a yeast calculator to figure out how many packets you need...for the average lager two packets usually suffices, and it's cheap enough. The good thing about dry yeast is you don't have to worry about making a yeast starter, as you would with a liquid yeast. Another good one is Lallemand Premium Diamond Lager yeast...it's actually the traditional species (Saccharomyces Pastorianus) and also gives very good results. Glad to hear you have gotten into temp control...it's one of the most critical things you can do for your beer!


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## livo (31/12/21)

Thanks for that Greg, (I'm a Greg as well) and yep, found that out. I don't think I can do it. I thought I could tuff it out and drink the heat affected beer but I think I'm going to be pouring 100 or so bottles down the drain. I've been able to cope with it by mixing with good Cerveza but I've run out. I'll buy a carton of something to mix and see if it can be tolerated but I have a feeling it is a lost cause. Back to buying beer until the temp controlled stuff starts coming through. Bugger. I can probably bottle the first one in a few days so another couple of weeks to wait.


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## duncbrewer (1/1/22)

Rekorderlig cider is horribly sweet and is available with fruit flavours, worth a try for a snakebite!


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## GregTheBrewer (1/1/22)

Livo...first of all Happy New Year! And don't be put off...your beers will just get better and better. Just something I wanted to ask about that Rhyan alluded to. You say "no chlorine" in your water...how do you know? What are you using...tank water? Whatever the case, how do you treat it? That will give a clue also. The reason I ask is that "burnt rubber" is a phenolic sort of flavour that could be from chlorophenols...interested to hear back when you get the chance


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## livo (1/1/22)

Happy New Year to you as well and all. Yep. Pure rain water. We only have tanks. Filtered through a couple of different grade filters. I could do carbon if I need to. There is no problem with the water, as the first 3 brews turned out fine, I used to brew on tank water last time I brewed as well and never had any issue other than the same thing, which I now know is heat (temperature) related, (I think), # see below. The only problem I've ever had with brew is the exact same flavour and last time I was brewing it was in a hot shed (in summer) as well. My water is good enough for fish to live in so I don't see why I can't make beer with it. I also do hydroponics and I have water testing equipment. If I can't make beer from my rain / tank water then there is no point. I'm not about to buy bottled water or go to any great lengths to treat and modify my rainwater.

# note from above: I've been less than hopeful about the 2 brews that were in the FVs when a 3 day hot spell hit. Today I decided that the 2 batches already known to be "off" had to go down the drain. Again, the Lager was worse than the draught, but I've dumped both. I decided I just couldn't drink it. While doing so I thought I'd test 1 stubby of the hot brew. The stubbies are Canadian Blonde. I put a stubby in the freezer to cool it down and tasted it. Only 9 -10 days in the bottle but no off flavour. Obviously green but not bad at all. So I decided to test one of the 750 ml bottles of lager. No off flavours and I was able to drink the bottle. Despite being green these 2 brews, that were exposed to much hotter temperatures in fermentation do not have the same off taste.

The possible differences / causes. 

#1 Even though the most recent brews were exposed to much warmer temperature overall, the temperature swing was less severe. It was hot but it remained hot. The other ones, that were off, were exposed to more rapid and wider temperature changes from one day to the next and overnight etc.

#2 Time in the FV. The bad ones were only in the FV for 5 days. I bottled it because I had 2 consecutive days of same reading (SG 1005). The hot ones sat in the FV for 10 days because I was too busy to bottle even though the gravity readings indicated it was finished. So this raises a question for me.

Which instruction / recommendation do you follow? The instruction on the can is essentially based upon time within a temperature range. Common advice is to ignore the airlock burps and use the hydrometer (2 days same reading). Now someone is saying you need to leave it for at least 2 weeks (or more) so the yeast can clean up after itself. BUT, leaving it on the yeast for too long can cause autolysis. apparently.

HUH, What???


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## MHB (1/1/22)

Probably can’t give you a single "Right" answer, that isn’t how yeast works.
With the right amount of yeast you will get primary fermentation over in 5 days in most beers, maybe a couple of days longer for a cold brewed Lager or a very strong beer. At work we can knock a 10% Ale over in 7 days, 10 days to kegging, and routinely make 6-7% beers in 7 days from pitching yeast to kegging.
Greg above mentioned using a pitch rate calculator to work out how much yeast to use, that or learning the calculations is a very good idea.
The two main factors that affect yeast autolysis are Temperature and Time. Underpitching means the yeast is working harder and doing more reproducing, both will encourage autolysis.
If you are culturing yeast there are factors that will affect the chances of autolysis (doesn’t sound like that going to be an issue for you yet).
If you want to avoid autolysis, pitch the right amount of healthy yeast at the right temperature.
Never leave the beer on the yeast cake for more than 14 Days (EVER!)
Brew at the right temperature.
If you are making Lager, plan on racking the beer to another fermenter so you aren’t on the yeast too long.
As a kit brewer you aren’t making your wort so you don’t have to worry so much about nutrients, if you start mashing that can be another thing to look at later.

Mark


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## duncbrewer (1/1/22)

@MHB re your never leave the beer on yeast cake for more than 14 days, I'm doing a 100% Brett saison and was told it would take 3 months in primary before transfer to oaked secondary for a further 6 months. Does Brett follow your rules ?


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## MHB (1/1/22)

Point 1 is that they aren’t my rules, just the real basics you will find in any serious brewing text.
Brett is a little odd, but I would still rack at around half way between OG and FG, just to get off any old/dormant/slow yeast that is lying on the bottom not making beer and waiting for a chance to autolyse.
In a commercial Lager brewery they would probably dump the trub 4 times between pitching and packaging, three of them in the first 7 days, then again at the end say 21-28 days.
Mark


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## duncbrewer (2/1/22)

Thanks @MHB i'll get it onto secondary and the oak added and see how it goes over the next few months. Was thinking a test around easter. But will bear the " recommended" Brett tips for the next one.


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## Westheimer (2/1/22)

livo said:


> Happy New Year to you as well and all. Yep. Pure rain water. We only have tanks. Filtered through a couple of different grade filters. I could do carbon if I need to. There is no problem with the water, as the first 3 brews turned out fine, I used to brew on tank water last time I brewed as well and never had any issue other than the same thing, which I now know is heat (temperature) related, (I think), # see below. The only problem I've ever had with brew is the exact same flavour and last time I was brewing it was in a hot shed (in summer) as well. My water is good enough for fish to live in so I don't see why I can't make beer with it. I also do hydroponics and I have water testing equipment. If I can't make beer from my rain / tank water then there is no point. I'm not about to buy bottled water or go to any great lengths to treat and modify my rainwater.
> 
> # note from above: I've been less than hopeful about the 2 brews that were in the FVs when a 3 day hot spell hit. Today I decided that the 2 batches already known to be "off" had to go down the drain. Again, the Lager was worse than the draught, but I've dumped both. I decided I just couldn't drink it. While doing so I thought I'd test 1 stubby of the hot brew. The stubbies are Canadian Blonde. I put a stubby in the freezer to cool it down and tasted it. Only 9 -10 days in the bottle but no off flavour. Obviously green but not bad at all. So I decided to test one of the 750 ml bottles of lager. No off flavours and I was able to drink the bottle. Despite being green these 2 brews, that were exposed to much hotter temperatures in fermentation do not have the same off taste.
> 
> ...


Hi Livo
I use rainwater as well. Brewfather will give me the minerals and acid to add according to the style of beer I'm brewing. Very easy 
My lagers I ferment under 12-14psi pressure @ 23°C and using 34/70 yeast.
Done in about 4 days. 
Cooled to 5°C and left on the yeast for a week.
Racked into keg and left to condition for 2-3 weeks @ 5°C and 15psi.
Done 
My neighbour uses tank water as well and never bothers with minerals unless I give him some 
His beers turn out good too.
We are both all grain, but I can't see why that would make a huge difference compared to the kits you are using.
Cheers


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## devo666 (2/1/22)

Hi This is my first post!!
I used to be a winemaker for 25 years, so know a bit about yeast.
Yeast need nitrogen to grow and reproduce.
We used to add DAP (Diammonium phosphate) as a nitrogen source for the yeast which is a good clean source of nitrogen.
I also if that is not available the yeast break down amino acids to obtain nitrogen many of which contain sulfur.
The sulfur then combines with Hydrogen to produce rotten egg gas (H2S). 
If that is not removed it will get converted to various mercaptans which are much more stable and hard to remove and much more pungent.
Hi ferment temps will see the H2S convert to mercaptans very rapidly.
The Mercaptans are typically burnt rubber, cooked cabbage, garlic odors etc.
They can be removed by fining with copper-sulfate, but that needs to be done after running fining trials to determine exactly how much to use and prevention is better than cure
The best thing is to add DAP and ferment at cooler temps because when yeast races it uses up a lot of nitrogen very quickly then starts chewing on amino acids and bingo your ferment stinks.
Hope this helps.
Dave


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## GregTheBrewer (2/1/22)

Westheimer said:


> My neighbour uses tank water as well and never bothers with minerals unless I give him some
> His beers turn out good too.
> We are both all grain, but I can't see why that would make a huge difference compared to the kits you are using.
> Cheers


Westy, the one big difference between all grain and extract (well, there are lots actually!) is that you boil the wort. This makes sure that any rogue bacteria or yeasts are killed. With extract brewing, unless you also boil the water or your filtration system is spotlessly clean, you are open to contamination. If Livo is using tanked rainwater, then it is not chlorophenols...that really only leaves yeast autolysis or contamination as the possible causes.


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## MHB (2/1/22)

Wine making and brewing have a few differences, the yeasts we use likewise.

One important part of mashing if to produce FAN (Free Amino Nitrogen) by the action of proteases (there are many) on protein, amino acids and peptides. A well designed mash will produce plenty of FAN and a timely boil will get rid of most of the higher molecular weight proteins that can cause other problems.
Ale yeasts and Lager yeast manage Sulphur quite differently, Lagers can throw H2S, its rare in Ales, in part from the higher kilning temperatures ale malt is subjected to which reduces SMM to DMS that is volatilised off in the kiln...
In brewing we generally use a complex Yeast Food, which contains some DAP and a lot of lased yeast with vitamins and minerals. If you feel the need to supplement a wort, this is a better option than DAP in brewing.
Mark


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## livo (3/1/22)

I remember making kit Apple Cider that used to be supplied with a packet of yeast nutrient as well as the yeast. I hadn't considered that my rainwater may lack nitrogen. I'll investigate this but I don't believe it is an issue. I have been able to make plenty of good beer from rainwater before today. It would contain NOM (natural organic matter) from decaying leaves in gutters. A yeast nutrient might not hurt.

I have bottled my first temperature controlled brew on day 8 and it tasted OK from the hydrometer tube. I've immediately put another batch in so we'll soon see how I'm going.


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## yankinoz (3/1/22)

MHB said:


> Probably can’t give you a single "Right" answer, that isn’t how yeast works.
> With the right amount of yeast you will get primary fermentation over in 5 days in most beers, maybe a couple of days longer for a cold brewed Lager or a very strong beer. At work we can knock a 10% Ale over in 7 days, 10 days to kegging, and routinely make 6-7% beers in 7 days from pitching yeast to kegging.
> Greg above mentioned using a pitch rate calculator to work out how much yeast to use, that or learning the calculations is a very good idea.
> The two main factors that affect yeast autolysis are Temperature and Time. Underpitching means the yeast is working harder and doing more reproducing, both will encourage autolysis.
> ...



And then there's yeast from bottle carbonation sitting at the bottom of bottles. The amount is small but not negligible. To me it's one reason to keep the beer cold after carbonation.

I once bought Coopers pale ale in a US Midwest liquor store. The yeast was there at the botton. The manager said it had sat on a shelf (at @ 22 C) for the better part of a year. How long it had been in ships, trucks and warehouses, who knows? On opening it had carbonation. Two tasters tried it. No burnt rubber or other really bad offtaste. Not a lot of flavour of any kind other that what I'd call bitter, cold vegetable broth. Strange.


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## MHB (3/1/22)

Just a FYI, Coopers bottles have a "Best After" date on them, that is two weeks after packaging, they hold the beer in the warehouse for that long before its released (memories of brewery tours past...)
Autalysis can present in many ways, from fault guide posted above: -






Interesting that you chose the term Broth, probably a sign that the beer was well past its best.
Mark


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## yankinoz (3/1/22)

MHB said:


> Just a FYI, Coopers bottles have a "Best After" date on them, that is two weeks after packaging, they hold the beer in the warehouse for that long before its released (memories of brewery tours past...)
> Autalysis can present in many ways, from fault guide posted above: -
> 
> Interesting that you chose the term Broth, probably a sign that the beer was well past its best.
> Mark



I'm at a loss how Coopers ended up there,. It happened in the early noughties. Although it would have come from an Illinois distributor, I never saw Coopers anywhere else in the States. By that time the 24 oz. gold cans of KB, once beloved for frat parties, were a memory, and Americans were hearing from Paul Hogan that "Fosters is Australian for beer."


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## livo (5/1/22)

Update.
Despite both "hot" brews sitting next to each other on the bench for the same duration of fermentation, on day 12 in the bottle the Lager has developed the same burned rubber autolysis flavour as the previous dumped brews while the Canadian Blonde has not. This off flavour was not present last week when sampled green. Both kits use the same yeast and sanitation and preparation were identical. Now I'm scratching my head a little. 

Lager in PET, Canadian Blonde in glass. Hmm. Maybe, but why?

The Canadian Blonde is actually really nice on day 13 in the bottle whereas the Lager is looking like another drain cleaner.

PS: Just been out and bought a few cans including 2 Brigalow. These are supplied with 5 g yeast packs and the instructions say the yeast is suitable for 16 - 35'C "to suite Australian conditions". Best pitched at 30'C and fermented at 27'C.


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## yankinoz (5/1/22)

I once knew a nice Canadian blonde.


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## livo (5/1/22)

As in Jesus and Mary, knew each other? The only Canadians I know lived in -30 and never saw each other naked until they were married, and then not too frequently after that. Completely understandable but it would be a shock for many of them. They came out here for 12 months and he was surprised she was so skinny. Hard to tell with all that clothing on.


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## GregTheBrewer (6/1/22)

Livo, just a little wary of you using the term "burned rubber autolysis flavour" when describing the lager. We still don't know that it is yeast autolysis causing it. Given that the two brews were done in virtually identical conditions I would be now suspicious of an infection. Replace your soft items (rubber seals etc) and then sanitise the hard items within an inch of their lives. I usually sanitise my fermenter the night before with Starsan and let it sit all night. Try boiling your source water and letting it cool before use. I know you said it's filtered, but....one of the problems with infections is that they can be inconsistent. If you happen to get a batch of yeast that quickly becomes dominant and crowds out any other micro-organisms, you are OK, but the opposite can happen too. I once had a troublesome infection problem that I tracked down to a bit of crap in the fermenter tap!


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## Westheimer (6/1/22)

GregTheBrewer said:


> Westy, the one big difference between all grain and extract (well, there are lots actually!) is that you boil the wort. This makes sure that any rogue bacteria or yeasts are killed. With extract brewing, unless you also boil the water or your filtration system is spotlessly clean, you are open to contamination. If Livo is using tanked rainwater, then it is not chlorophenols...that really only leaves yeast autolysis or contamination as the possible causes.



Thanks Greg
You are right of course.
I was assuming that kit wort is getting boiled as well.
Any reason why you wouldn't boil it?
Would certainly make a lot of sense to me. Would kill any bugs and one would only have to worry about the thereafter


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## livo (6/1/22)

Thanks Greg. I agree and I've amended the description. The fermenters were fitted with brand new taps and airlock grommets right before the first 2 warm batches. I wasn't happy with the seals provided by the old airlock grommets (10 years old) and one of the taps leaked. The old original stuff produced 3 good batches in cooler temperatures directly before these replacements and the 2 tipped brews. The old taps looked grubby internally and one leaked but three batches of beer were good. Brand new taps and seals were sanitized and I've got the problem.

I am still betting on autolysis, heat / temperature and/ or possibly time in FV, but I've been wrong with many things before today. The FVs are press fit lid bucket style. No O-rings and everything was sanitized and exposed to the sun for a few hours.

Water is a possibility but I'm doubtful and the batch(es) I've done in temperature controlled environment (another in now) should shed some light on that. Of course I will go and boil a couple of big pots of water and cube it to test that avenue just in case. 

The helpful advice is very much appreciated.

Westheimer, I would argue that the whole point of extract concentrate kit beer is to avoid the hassle of boiling. It isn't a process required in the instructions and so I would imagine that the majority of kits brewed around the globe are not boiled. This may be different for enhanced kit brewing, but wouldn't additional boiling of just the concentrate change the hop profiles, etc of the extract already boiled and concentrated. That part of the brew process is already done (or replicated anyway). I doubt any kit supplier would be in business long selling contaminated concentrates.

I find it really surprising that the Lager appears to be more affected than the other beers. In the first instance, of the 2 dumped warm batches, the lager was worse and now in the second instance, with the really hot ones, the lager has gone off in the bottle while the CB is still good to drink. All new cans, in date and consistent processes involved.

I am going to go out and buy a bottle of brewing sanitiser, Starsan or whatever brand I can get from my local HBS. Over the years I have only ever used SMBS and diluted bleach water with adjusted pH, (white vinegar). I need to eliminate all possibilities obviously. I still have pink powder but I've done all my recent sanitizing in bleach, not to a concentration that would cause it's own problems. Actually, I'll probably need to order it online. As of yesterday I am a Close Family Contact so I'm not allowed to go to the shops for 7 days at least. More if I develop symptoms and test +ve. Doh!!!!!


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## GregTheBrewer (7/1/22)

Westheimer said:


> Thanks Greg
> You are right of course.
> I was assuming that kit wort is getting boiled as well.
> Any reason why you wouldn't boil it?
> Would certainly make a lot of sense to me. Would kill any bugs and one would only have to worry about the thereafter


No, I was only referring to boiling the water that you add to the kit to make it up to volume. The concentrated wort in the tin has already been boiled and therefore is sterile, and does not need any more boiling.


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## GregTheBrewer (7/1/22)

livo said:


> Thanks Greg. I agree and I've amended the description. The fermenters were fitted with brand new taps and airlock grommets right before the first 2 warm batches. I wasn't happy with the seals provided by the old airlock grommets (10 years old) and one of the taps leaked. The old original stuff produced 3 good batches in cooler temperatures directly before these replacements and the 2 tipped brews. The old taps looked grubby internally and one leaked but three batches of beer were good. Brand new taps and seals were sanitized and I've got the problem.
> 
> I am still betting on autolysis, heat / temperature and/ or possibly time in FV, but I've been wrong with many things before today. The FVs are press fit lid bucket style. No O-rings and everything was sanitized and exposed to the sun for a few hours.
> 
> ...


Hi Livo. There's a lot to tackle here! Let's start with the easy bit first. I already replied to Westheimer, and you are absolutely correct: you do NOT need to boil extract when you are doing an extract brew: the manufacturer has already done that for you. I was, as you correctly assumed, referring to boiling the water you ADD to the extract beforehand to know it's sterile.

You have done well replacing the taps and grommets: good for you. That's one possibility minimised. The FV's should be fine as long as they are well sanitised. Now, with your bleach sanitising routine, do you make sure that you have thoroughly rinsed out everything that will come into contact with the beer after you have done it? Even dilute bleach can leave enough residual chlorine (especially in plastic FV's) to react with the brew unless it is scrupulously rinsed out. The resultant chlorophenols can give a seriously off flavour, and it's one of those things than can vary if the residual amount varies.
Starsan (or equivalent from the LHBS) is phenomenal stuff, because it works very well and it is no rinse: you don't even have to worry about getting rid of the foam that's left in your FV after you use it (helps feed the yeasties!). I would be willing to make a bet that once you have started using Starsan and stopped using bleach, and combined that with temperature control, your problems will stop. Look forward to hearing how you get on.

Why is the lager more affected? Because lager yeast is far less tolerant of higher temps than ale yeast, and is much more likely to produce off flavours when stressed.

Oh, and I feel your pain about isolating: I tested positive to the bloody thing on Tuesday, and am waiting for confirmation via PCR. Bloody shit virus!


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## livo (7/1/22)

Greg, yes I have rinsed after sanitizing with boiled, but not hot, water. You obviously don't believe the theory of bleach, in low concentration with pH adjusted, being a good no-rinse sanitizer. I'm sceptical but I don't see the point in sanitizing and then rinsing in unsanitary water, hence the pre-boiled water for rinsing and the sun treatment.

(_provided it's acidified slightly. 0.1% bleach and 0.1% white vinegar is an effective no rinse sanitizer._) and this,
Bleach: cheapest most effective no rinse sanitiser homebrew

However, no-rinse doesn't mean flavour free and you have to get the bleach out, as you correctly say.

After my sanitizing, and rinsing, I always put my gear out in the sun for a few hours with FVs upside down and bottles on the drainer tree. My dad always told me, and still does, that UV from the sun is the best sanitizer. I've had issues with bleach before so I'm pretty careful, but I will be getting into Starsan / Stellarsan or whatever it is I can get my hands on. It was becoming a thing when I last brewed but I never got around to getting any and haven't yet. It's coming before my next batch. I've never liked using pink powder either.

What is the product that people get from Aldi that they claim to be the same thing as Starsan?

About the lager being more affected, it isn't lager. It says Lager on the can but it is supplied with Coopers Ale Yeast. This is the same yeast as the other Coopers beers I've made except Mexican Cerveza. That's what confuses me.


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## GregTheBrewer (8/1/22)

Which Coopers Lager kit did you use Livo?


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## livo (8/1/22)

Just the bog standard cans of Coopers Lager from their original range. 
Coopers Lager Concentrate Extract Kit.
Available everywhere and according to the information I've seen, it is supplied with their bog standard Coopers Ale yeast. A bit stupid really when they supply Mexican Cerveza with the blended yeast of Ale and Lager.

I've ordered some 34/70, Diamond and US-05 so I'm hoping that with temperature controlled fermentation I might get a better result. I'm in the process of building an insulated "brewery" in my shed. I may need to wait till cooler months to actually get some appropriate temperatures for conditioning / lagering.


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## GregTheBrewer (9/1/22)

Yes, you're right. The original series kits all use the proprietary Cooper's Ale yeast. I just wondered if you had done one of the others that did have an actual Lager yeast. I agree with your comments about what they supply!

What neck of the woods are you in? Trust me, temperature control makes a WORLD of difference. Even here in Melbourne with its crazy weather I can happily do lagers in summer (if I want to...though I usually do them in the cooler months). What strategy are you using to chill your wort down before pitching the yeast? Also, do you rehydrate the yeast? Opinions on this deal greatly...some don't bother, others do. I started doing it about 50 brews ago (when I'm not using liquid yeast) and I have consistently got excellent results, so I'm a believer. In fact, I suggested rehydrating dry yeast to my wife for baking, and SHE has found a big difference in the bread as well! Crazy, huh!


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## livo (9/1/22)

Greg, I've ordered 2 different Lager Yeasts and US-05. I now have temperature controlled fermentation. I'm Central Coast NSW. Up to now I have not bothered with doing anything with the supplied kit yeast other than dumping it in, within the recommended temperature range. This is after all how these kits are marketed and the instructions imply that this is all that is required. Of course we know that it can be improved upon but hey, it's home brew after all. A mug's game at getting cheap beer at the moment. I intend to do some more once I get going, and lagering will certainly be easier in the winter months. I've tried to do a lot really quickly in a few weeks after a 10 year break. I used to do whole grain and I've done other whole grain mashing (with enzymes).

I'm a baker as well and I'm well educated about yeast, proving, proofing, hydrating etc etc. Biga, poolish, sourdough. I've captured wild yeast for bread and done natural vinegaration. If the instant yeast is in date, I just use it as it's intended and I've not had any issues. Bread, pizza and naan. I have my own Tandoor and I cook restaurant style curry. If the yeast is suspect you get zippo. 

I have just found some of my old Coopers yeast packets that are 9 - 10 years out of date. I won't attempt to use them but I will drop them in some liquid with sugars just to see if they are alive. 10 years out of the fridge and exposed to some serious heat in the shed. Should be interesting.


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## GregTheBrewer (10/1/22)

It will be very interesting to hear how the old yeast goes Livo. I imagine you might get a bit of activity, it just won't be brisk! My apologies BTW: you have done all grain in the past, so please excuse if I have been trying to teach you to suck eggs!
Clearly you have some expertise with yeast, so that's great. And I agree...do whatever works for you. Interestingly, on one recent email I got (not this forum) there was a link to a video from Fermentis where they were saying that there is no longer any need to rehydrate (their) dry yeast any more. I found this very interesting, since from a biochemistry point of view it always made sense to me to rehydrate the yeast. As I said, that has been my practice, and since I'm comfortable with it and get good results, I'll probably keep doing it!


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## livo (10/1/22)

I've found that a lot has changed (even in just a decade) and I also saw that rehydrating is not required. Also making a starter out of dried yeast is frowned upon and washing yeast has become a far more complicated process than it used to be, all thanks to Youtube experts. Whether rehydrating still improves performance is up for conjecture I suppose. If it doesn't hurt, what's the harm?

The decade old yeast, Coopers and Brigalow, packets were all dead (nearly all). They had (mostly) turned a very dark brown and showed no signs of life. However, I had 2 Coopers packs that looked different on the front and were marked "Intl" with the date code "35011". 350th day of 2011 and that would be about right. Maybe from my cans of Mexican Cerveza back then, that I used to brew 50/50 with Lager and reused yeast in 2 parallel fermenters. (Early toucans but I didn't know it.) These packets were clearly made up of 2 different yeasts and one had remained light in colour while the other was the dark brown. They showed some signs of life but I didn't pursue it. Obviously the dark brown yeast was dead but the usual lighter coloured stuff had survived for a decade.

The surprise packet was one that I don't even know where it came from. It was in a white paper outer / foil inner packet with the title "Premium Beer Yeast". It had no other markings to indicate age but it must be 10 years old or more. It bounced into life and started frothing away within minutes. The Coopers and Brigalows were in the usual foil only packs (Gold and Silver respectively) and I'm pretty sure the Brigalows were from Apple Cider kits. I used to make Apple Cider Vinegar for my wife's horses using the Brigalow kits because they were the cheapest.

Anyway, I know that boiled dead yeast is a good yeast nutrient and I had to save 25 kg of sugar from a pack of invading black ants that has just decided this el nino weather is a good reason to move into my shed. I have a whole big batch of hand sanitiser just started.

PS: My dad used to pinch my glass marbles and my mums nylons to boil up his AG brews back in the 1960s. I loved brew weekends because the smell was amazing. We had to play Jacks instead of marbles though. I still have my AG gear but I'm time poor at the moment.


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## GregTheBrewer (11/1/22)

livo said:


> Anyway, I know that boiled dead yeast is a good yeast nutrient and I had to save 25 kg of sugar from a pack of invading black ants that has just decided this el nino weather is a good reason to move into my shed. I have a whole big batch of hand sanitiser just started.


I hear you Livo! Bugger about the ants, but glad to hear that hand sanitiser is on the cards. I've been known to do something similar myself LOL!


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## livo (11/1/22)

With corn for aroma.


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## GregTheBrewer (12/1/22)

Naturally, naturally....I have been known to use molasses for aroma in mine!


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## livo (15/1/22)

livo said:


> PS: Just been out and bought a few cans including 2 Brigalow. These are supplied with 5 g yeast packs and the instructions say the yeast is suitable for 16 - 35'C "to suite Australian conditions". Best pitched at 30'C and fermented at 27'C.



Well I've been reading a lot of really bad stuff about Brigalow beer kits. I used to use their Cider kits to make my wife's ACV with the addition of 80% after fermentation and then sat in cloth covered open buckets. I did make a few sweet ciders as well, but it is a long time since my first Brigalow beer pack with the black fermenter and cup airlock. I don't remember enjoying it or what can came in the kit.

The 2 cans I bought are the Munich Lager. Any tips for these? Should have done due diligence before checkout, I know, but someone must have done something with these. They are still available and still cheap.


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## MHB (15/1/22)

I think I used one of those cans a a door stop for a couple of years...
M


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## livo (15/1/22)

Oh dear!! Did it get any better from the aging?


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## GregTheBrewer (16/1/22)

Wish I could help Livo. I have only used the apple cider kits myself.


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## livo (16/1/22)

Well as it's going to be hot in the shed for the next week or more, and with the kit being provided with what could be assumed to be bakers yeast, I've made a batch of warm Munich Lager. 1/3 each of LDME, dextrose and big head. I figure it can't be worse than burnt rubber. I didn't get it up to 35'C to pitch but it should get up to the recommended 27'C ferment temperature before long. You guys are too fussy and I can't wait to taste it. Lucky I bought 2 cans.


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## livo (21/1/22)

livo said:


> You guys are too fussy and I can't wait to taste it. Lucky I bought 2 cans.


*Brigalow Munich Lager (/w supplied yeast)*
At first impressions I think I'm going to need to eat my words. 
I did a hydrometer reading yesterday and taste tested. Bluuurrgh!!! It is definitely going to need to improve in the bottle or it will be a down the drain job even if it has no defects caused by me. After sampling the lager with proper yeast by comparison it is absolute crap. There was no hint of beer flavour and it can only be likened to muddy water.
Do you need a new Home Brew themed door stop MHB?
I suppose I'll try the 2nd can with a different yeast to see if it makes an acceptable drink.


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## Westheimer (21/1/22)

livo said:


> *Brigalow Munich Lager (/w supplied yeast)*
> At first impressions I think I'm going to need to eat my words.
> I did a hydrometer reading yesterday and taste tested. Bluuurrgh!!! It is definitely going to need to improve in the bottle or it will be a down the drain job even if it has no defects caused by me. After sampling the lager with proper yeast by comparison it is absolute crap. There was no hint of beer flavour and it can only be likened to muddy water.
> Do you need a new Home Brew themed door stop MHB?
> I suppose I'll try the 2nd can with a different yeast to see if it makes an acceptable drink.


Hi Livo
You don't seem to have a lot of luck in the homebrew department lately
Can I suggest to try pressure ferment with 34/70 @ 22-24°C. Well worth considering
Cheers


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## livo (21/1/22)

I've got good beer to drink, but I'm repeating old mistakes from other people, because I can't be told what to do. 

I read that Brigalow was crapola toilet water. Had to find out for myself because you cant believe everything out there. Not a huge loss for me. so it's all good.

I should have made a Youtube video, like all the other mugs posting crap.


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## livo (31/1/22)

Well this Brigalow Munich Lager is still very green and it is rubbish beer but it isn't as bad as I'd expected. Of course it tastes like crap but it isn't as bad as the autolysis burnt batches I had to dump so the yeast provided must be able to cope with the elevated temperature as it's claimed. Still absolute rubbish though and I doubt very much I'll bother with the second can. Although I have read that it can improve with a lot of conditioning. The other alternative is to try it with a different yeast in temperature controlled fermentation.


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