# Poll: PH testing



## Hopsta (3/8/16)

[SIZE=10.5pt]I’ve had the unfortunate experience of having to tip the past 6 batches of brew into the garden. it’s been doing my head in as to what’s causing the off flavour. it’s been the same flavour and mouthfeel each time slightly astringent, complete loss of all hop aroma, weird bitterness. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]my thoughts jumped immediately to suspect and infection. after 5 batches, lots of fastidious cleaning, some replacement equipment and a number of months later... i have another dodgee batch in the fermenter. im ruling out infection and am almost positive its a PH issue.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]ive been AG brewing for years and never bothered to check PH, ive used 3 vessel systems, a grainfather and am now on a braumeister. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]i ask the forum, how many of you AG brewers bother to check PH? i never thought of it as mandatory for a good outcome.... although now i think im paying the price. time to invest in a PH meter i think.[/SIZE]


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## Benn (3/8/16)

You mention you've been All Grain Brewing for a number of years (with good results presumably) have you recently changed your source water? i.e for the last 5 batches,


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## Yob (3/8/16)

I really only check these days if it's an out of the ordinary brew, new recipe or some such.. 

used to do it every batch but just cant be arsed now, it's always pretty damn close to 5.2 every time I check


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## Mardoo (3/8/16)

FWIW I had a pH meter, used it regularly, calibrating every brew. After 18 months it needed a new electrode, but I was finding Bru'n Water was giving me estimations that were no more than 0.1 points out, and usually spot on. I decided not to get another electrode. Beers have been coming out fine. However, when I am able, I plan to get a quality meter towards the top of the handheld range.


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## Hopsta (3/8/16)

Benn said:


> You mention you've been All Grain Brewing for a number of years (with good results presumably) have you recently changed your source water? i.e for the last 5 batches,


yeah great results for many years. always used sydney water north prospect source, soft water.

im considering trying some distilled water.


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## evoo4u (3/8/16)

I've done only about 30 AG brews, and started using a pH meter about half way through. It was an eye-opener, as my mashs to that time would have been well under 5.0 using rainwater from a BHP 'AquaPlate' tank (plastic lining on corrugated steel) - very soft, bugger-all minerals, ideal neutral water to start with as it turns out.

So my typical mash needs baking soda to lift the pH, whereas probably most brewers would be using lactic acid or acidified malt to bring it down within the required range. I'm investigating making Calcium Hydroxide to raise the pH, to avoid adding all the Sodium from baking soda. Can you buy Calcium Hydroxide in Oz?

Anyway, whether it's getting the pH right, or going HERMS, or cracking the grain just right, my efficiency has improved, and the beers are tasting good, but getting the pH in the right range is a good first step!


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## WarmerBeer (3/8/16)

Bought a decent quality hand held meter. Used it 5 times, all mashes at 5.2 pH, within margin of error. It now sits in my cupboard collecting dust and expiring the electrode. 
One of the most useless purchases I've ever made for brewing purposes.


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## PommyIan (3/8/16)

It sounds like you've had a similar issue to what I had been experiencing, and it was pH related. I kept getting this very harsh bitterness which I thought was not from hops but from Tannin's from the grain. I did some reading and understood during sparging if the pH got above 5.8/6.0 you can extract tannin's form the grain.
So next brew I checked and sure enough my pH during sparging was 6.0 (the brew was a simple Pale Ale)

I'm looking at acidifying my sparge water next time or possibly adjusting my water / grist ratio as that I sparge with less water.

Definitely use a pH meter in my view, but keep it calibrated - buy some buffer solutions.

Hope this helps


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## TheWiggman (3/8/16)

There should be an option for "No, but I make adjustments anyway"
I add brewing salts on the basis of Bru'n Water spreadsheet as per Mardoo but I don't take mash pH measurements (measure water from time to time using a dropper kit). No you can't control what you don't measure and I'm not going to pretend my approach is the best, but I work off sound assumptions and thus far have achieved good results. Were I measuring pH I'd get better results.

Also change the title to 'pH' not 'PH' to satisfy the needs of my inner perfectionist, perfectionism of which should be better focussed on knowing exactly what my mash pH is rather than assuming.


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## MHB (3/8/16)

I would be surprised if the pH of tap water would make beer undrinkable. Much more likely to be an infection or a process issue (too hot sparge water - not too likely on a BM).
pH is an important control parameter. Hygiene and temperature probably more so unless your water is obscenely high in carbonates.
Mark


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## GalBrew (3/8/16)

A little off topic, but why not bang out a quick kit beer? If it comes out ok, you can eliminate infection as the problem. If you use your tap water, that will also let you know if it's an issue.


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## Hopsta (3/8/16)

MHB said:


> I would be surprised if the pH of tap water would make beer undrinkable. Much more likely to be an infection or a process issue (too hot sparge water - not too likely on a BM).
> pH is an important control parameter. Hygiene and temperature probably more so unless your water is obscenely high in carbonates.
> Mark


Thanks Mark, i'm pretty careful with my temp measurements and have a quality digi pen thermometer to test sparge water temps. My last sparge was 8.5 litres into the 20lt BM to achievce a 30.25lt boil volume. I'm not sure thats even enough sparge water to extract tannins but happy to be corrected? 

I know nothing about reading water analysis but have attached them below if there are any people here knowledgeable in that area? 

I dont think i can handle tipping another batch out!! :unsure:


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## scomet (3/8/16)

Hello Hopsta - Sorry to hear about the 6 batches that would hurt.

I just bought a decent Milwaukee Ph meter and checked my last brew and to my surprise the mash Ph was 5.9 notwithstanding this I thought the beer tasted great, but it could explain my low efficiencies, my next batch will be RO ++

Your local water source could have upgraded their water plant and started using chloramines I just bought an RO unit from here for that reason https://www.psifilters.com.au great service.

You could try getting some RO, fish tank places sell it and put in a tsp of calcium chloride and acidulated malt, or run 50% RO.

Pouring beer in the garden seriously hurts… good luck


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## MHB (3/8/16)

Well it doesn't look to bad, about the only concern would be the Chloramines, nasty stuff, you might get rid of it by adding a touch of Sodium/Potassium Metabisulphite.
A bit of extra Calcium (100ppm) wouldn't go astray, add as Chloride or Sulphate or a mix as desired, both are really low.

From what you have said I would look at the Chloramines first, well second infection first.
Mark


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## Coalminer (3/8/16)

When looking at water reports I notice a big variation in concentrations - ie 10th - 90th percentile
Should these ranges be averaged out? for example above - Calcium hardness 30 - 40
Could I assume the value to use would be 35?


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## Hopsta (3/8/16)

GalBrew said:


> A little off topic, but why not bang out a quick kit beer? If it comes out ok, you can eliminate infection as the problem. If you use your tap water, that will also let you know if it's an issue.


Not off topic at all, in fact i bought a kit beer 2 brews ago for that very reason... the thought of then feeling obliged to actually drink it puts me off and i get super confident that ive nailed the problem and go back to AG. Time to swallow to my pride in the interests of getting to the bottom of the issue. I'll chuck the kit in the fermenter today! 



MHB said:


> Well it doesn't look to bad, about the only concern would be the Chloramines, nasty stuff, you might get rid of it by adding a touch of Sodium/Potassium Metabisulphite.
> A bit of extra Calcium (100ppm) wouldn't go astray, add as Chloride or Sulphate or a mix as desired, both are really low.
> 
> From what you have said I would look at the Chloramines first, well second infection first.
> Mark


Thanks for taking a look at that. To hell with the Reinheitsgebot!! I've got a shopping list that would make the Germans shudder!

PH Meter
5.2 PH Stabiliser powder
Potassium Metabisulphite
Calcium Chloride
Calcium Sulphate 

Anything else i should add?

Super keen to beat this issue... i'll change brewing location next time too. Instead of outside on the back deck i'll brew indoors, hopefully eliminate possibilities of wild yeasts in the air etc...


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## wobbly (3/8/16)

evoo4u said:


> I've done only about 30 AG brews, and started using a pH meter about half way through. It was an eye-opener, as my mashs to that time would have been well under 5.0 using rainwater from a BHP 'AquaPlate' tank (plastic lining on corrugated steel)


If your rain water pH is below 5.0 then you are approaching "Acid Rain". Do you have a lot of heavy industry pollution close by?

I use rain water from the same type of tank and my pH is around 6.5.


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## wobbly (3/8/16)

Hopsta said:


> 5.2 PH Stabiliser powder


Absolute waste of time and money as pointed out in this thread at HBT http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

Whilst this is very long topic thread the first couplf of pages are a very good staring point for understanding the basics of water management

wobbly

Also get your self a copy of Martin Bruingards water spread sheet. Do a search for "Bru'n Water". There are two versions one free and the other requiring a contribution around US$10 which is in my view well worth it

Wobbly


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## Hopsta (3/8/16)

wobbly said:


> If your rain water pH is below 5.0 then you are approaching "Acid Rain". Do you have a lot of heavy industry pollution close by?
> 
> I use rain water from the same type of tank and my pH is around 6.5.


Its raining right now, i just went outside with a couple of pH strips and it looks to be in the high 5s to low 6s. No heavy industry around here.


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## technobabble66 (3/8/16)

At a quick glance and then at a northern Melbourne report that i use, i'd suggest your pH might be a problem.
It seems your pH is high & your total hardness is a fair bit higher than mine. So, as well as reducing mash efficiency, it'll extract tannins from your mash. Namely from your sparge step - the mash will probably be fine on the tannin front, but the sparge water has no sugars/solids to buffer (i.e.: prevent) the tannins from being extracted at higher pH's. Those tannins could be causing some weird bitterness & astringency.
No idea about those chloramine thingies - def something to avoid in your beer, so if MHB reckons you're high, i'd use the Metabisulfate.

However:
This doesn't explain the loss of hops aroma.
It also doesn't seem to explain what's happened in the last 5 beers compared to the previous few dozen - in theory, the water should be consistent.
So it all probably depends on what you've altered in the last 5-6 beers. Or if your water supplier has altered their supply (as mentioned above).
In the meantime, i'd fix your pH, especially of your sparge water.
So i'd add some Acidulated Malt onto your shopping list 
2c

For the poll, i've checked my pH a few times and compared to the Bru'n Water spreadsheet estimate. Always within 0.03. Don't bother checking any more.
:icon_cheers:

EDIT: PS, i add ~0.3g Citric acid into my sparge (as well as salts) to ensure my ~18L is sufficiently acidic so i don't get tannin extraction. Going solely by empirical evidence, seems to work for me - done on the assumption 0.3g citric acid is too small in 25L beer to be noticeable if it's unnecessary, but is enough to temporarily drop the sparge pH to ~5.3(-ish).


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## Hopsta (3/8/16)

technobabble66 said:


> At a quick glance and then at a northern Melbourne report that i use, i'd suggest your pH might be a problem.
> It seems your pH is high & your total hardness is a fair bit higher than mine. So, as well as reducing mash efficiency, it'll extract tannins from your mash. Namely from your sparge step - the mash will probably be fine on the tannin front, but the sparge water has no sugars/solids to buffer (i.e.: prevent) the tannins from being extracted at higher pH's. Those tannins could be causing some weird bitterness & astringency.
> No idea about those chloramine thingies - def something to avoid in your beer, so if MHB reckons you're high, i'd use the Metabisulfate.
> 
> ...


Thanks Technobabble, the last good brew i did was a porter which due to the darker malts is less susceptible to pH issues so ive read. 

One of the great things about the BM is that sparging is an optional step (sometimes costs a couple efficiency points, sometimes not) i can exclude the sparge altogether on the next batch. Cheers.


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## kaiserben (3/8/16)

I don't test. I use EZ-water to predict pH for me, and adjust from there. I'm also in Sydney. 

In the past, before I utilised EZS water and water additions, I made a run of half a dozen ESBs that had similar issues to what you describe. Whereas my dark beers turned out great. And my IPAs also turned out great (but any problems there were probably being masked by loads and loads of hops). I can't say definitively that it was a water/pH issue, but it's certainly a possibility. 

These days, for lighter-coloured beers I always add a small amount of acidified malt to help get the pH within range without having to go overboard with the salts. Haven't made a dud beer since using EZ water to check chemistry.


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## Hopsta (3/8/16)

wobbly said:


> Absolute waste of time and money as pointed out in this thread at HBT http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460
> 
> Whilst this is very long topic thread the first couplf of pages are a very good staring point for understanding the basics of water management
> 
> ...


That was a very helpful and interesting article. I've been through the first few pages and flagged the rest to go back and reference. I just downloaded the free bruin water version while i wait for him to email me the full version. It wasn't clear on his page how donation he required for the full version.. will wait and see if it comes through. Cheers.


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## Hopsta (3/8/16)

kaiserben said:


> I don't test. I use EZ-water to predict pH for me, and adjust from there. I'm also in Sydney.
> 
> In the past, before I utilised EZS water and water additions, I made a run of half a dozen ESBs that had similar issues to what you describe. Whereas my dark beers turned out great. And my IPAs also turned out great (but any problems there were probably being masked by loads and loads of hops). I can't say definitively that it was a water/pH issue, but it's certainly a possibility.
> 
> These days, for lighter-coloured beers I always add a small amount of acidified malt to help get the pH within range without having to go overboard with the salts. Haven't made a dud beer since using EZ water to check chemistry.


Thanks i'll give EZ water and Buin water a go see which one works best for me. The fact that the dark beers come out ok is what has convinced me on this.



wobbly said:


> Absolute waste of time and money as pointed out in this thread at HBT http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460
> 
> Whilst this is very long topic thread the first couplf of pages are a very good staring point for understanding the basics of water management
> 
> ...


That was a very helpful and interesting article. I've been through the first few pages and flagged the rest to go back and reference. I just downloaded the free bruin water version while i wait for him to email me the full version. It wasn't clear on his page how donation he required for the full version.. will wait and see if it comes through. Cheers.


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## evoo4u (3/8/16)

wobbly said:


> If your rain water pH is below 5.0 then you are approaching "Acid Rain". Do you have a lot of heavy industry pollution close by?
> 
> I use rain water from the same type of tank and my pH is around 6.5.


My understanding is that measuring the pH of straight water does not yield much / any information of any use, as there's not sufficient buffering power in 100% water. It's only in the mash (with the grains) that a pH reading becomes useful.

So I have not dipped the meter into straight water. But as for water quality - we're in the bush, surrounded by more bush, and it tastes beautiful!

I am happy to be corrected if my thoughts on this are skewed.


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## wobbly (3/8/16)

Hopsta said:


> I just downloaded the free bruin water version while i wait for him to email me the full version. It wasn't clear on his page how donation he required for the full version.. will wait and see if it comes through. Cheers.


I don't remember it stating an "amount" rather a request for a "contribution" so I just put $10 as I considered it worth it if it was going to help me improve my beers with paying a bit of attention to mash and sparge water. 

I also use a BM 20 and as indicated above have switched from 100% tap water to 90% rain water as I couldn't get a reliable analysis of the tap water. All I could get out of the water authority was an "range" of elements taken over a number of years sampling and depending on the time of year and it can vary from week to week the mount of desalinated water in the mix

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly (3/8/16)

evoo4u said:


> My understanding is that measuring the pH of straight water does not yield much / any information of any use, as there's not sufficient buffering power in 100% water. It's only in the mash (with the grains) that a pH reading becomes useful.


My understanding also that the pH of your water isn't necessarily important but the pH of your mash and sparge is

My misunderstanding of your initial comment I thought you were indicating that your rain water out of the tank was below 5.0

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Hopsta (3/8/16)

After punching my water analysis and most recent recipe into the EZ water calc (it is very easy) i can see problems already with some of the mineral components of my brewing water.

I really hope this is it and ive found the cause (with everybody here's help), quietly optimistic. Screenshot below.


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## Nattydstar (3/8/16)

I've only done about 10 AG brews, but since I bought my PH meter I always check the mash PH. I've generally found I need to add a few drops of acid each time.

I picked up this one from Jaycar for $65 and just noticed you can get them for $52 each if you buy a minimum of six - maybe a bulk buy?


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## Danscraftbeer (3/8/16)

I check. Rarely adjust. (AD11 pH meter celebrated each time) Its a result of just small variations between brews keeping as simple as possible or the complexities of multiple additions gets out of hand and you wont know whats working in your favour or not. So a base soft water profile for all my beers now. 2% Acidulated Malt for pales. No acidulated Malt for darker beers with maybe a tiny bit of Baking Soda for darks. Mash pH always 5.2. Water is filtered Melbourne tap water at around pH 5.8 to 6.

It could be good if you could get a second opinion of the flavour/off flavour of your beer. It may not be pH. You mentioned brewing outside. Is the beer kept in darkness?


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## Hopsta (3/8/16)

Danscraftbeer said:


> I check. Rarely adjust. (AD11 pH meter celebrated each time) Its a result of just small variations between brews keeping as simple as possible or the complexities of multiple additions gets out of hand and you wont know whats working in your favour or not. So a base soft water profile for all my beers now. 2% Acidulated Malt for pales. No acidulated Malt for darker beers with maybe a tiny bit of Baking Soda for darks. Mash pH always 5.2. Water is filtered Melbourne tap water at around pH 5.8 to 6.
> 
> It could be good if you could get a second opinion of the flavour/off flavour of your beer. It may not be pH. You mentioned brewing outside. Is the beer kept in darkness?


Yeh brewday is outside, the fermentation and bottle conditioning is done in the dark. I think i may have a longy or two of the suspect batches i'll have to check, maybe take it up the local HBS for testing. Poor guy must get that a bit i'd say... "here taste my dodgee beer! What is it!?"


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## manticle (3/8/16)

How is his pH high techno? Unless I misread.


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## kaiserben (3/8/16)

Hopsta, I have same water as you.
I regularly use CaSO4, MgSO4 and CaCl, but only in very tiny amounts (a few grams per batch). 
I usually just bump up the Ca so it's above 50ppm and the Mg up so it's above 10ppm. 
I then check the Chloride to Sulfate ratio and consider whether I want to adjust that. 
I try to keep Cl below 100ppm if I can (even though EZ water says up to 250ppm is fine). 
Then I see where my mash pH is at. 
And then add in some acidulated malt till it's were I want pH to be without sending the amount of acidulated malt past ~2% of the total grain bill. 

I do this each time I try a new recipe. It's nice and easy.


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## technobabble66 (3/8/16)

Hey Hopsta,
You've got great water for a double stout or maybe a Dunkel [emoji185][emoji1]
That's a high Cl:S ratio!

Fwiw, I found EZ a great starting point, but quickly found it limited (no sparge estimate, or something like that?), so started using Bru'n and haven't looked back. Just take the time to fill it all out and it'll give you the best results. 
Especially your mash pH, which as stated, is the all important. 
If it's coming out high, there's a v good chance your sparge will be too high also. 

Otherwise your water doesn't look too bad - relatively soft for mineral content, which is a plus!


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## technobabble66 (3/8/16)

manticle said:


> How is his pH high techno? Unless I misread.


His pH=8, and total hardness is 55

I could easily be wrong, but it seems high to me and is definitely a fair bit higher than mine on both counts. 
I'm assuming if I need to adjust my pH down with more neutral water, then he's going to be a shoe-in for his mash pH being too high on paler beers. 
Happy to be corrected if I've missed something. 

Hey, where's Martin Brungard?! This thread already hours old and he hasn't chimed in yet. [emoji6]

PS: +1 for what kaiserben wrote above. Similar process to what I do (plus a dash of Citric into the sparge), though my water source is obviously not the same.


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## kaiserben (3/8/16)

technobabble66 said:


> Fwiw, I found EZ a great starting point, but quickly found it limited (no sparge estimate, or something like that?),





technobabble66 said:


> PS: +1 for what kaiserben wrote above. Similar process to what I do (plus a dash of Citric into the sparge), though my water source is obviously not the same.


Dunno if it has changed, but the current version of EZ Water allows you to select putting all your additions in the mash, or splitting between mash/sparge. 

After doing some reading I've recently decided that it's best to put them all in the mash and then acidify your sparge water (and I've bought phosphoric acid for that).


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## manticle (3/8/16)

I did misread (someone else's post as Hopsta's where pH was 6).


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## welly2 (3/8/16)

Quick question about Bru'n'Water. On the report I'm using, it shows "Calcium: 12.1 - 16.5" - do I want to just get an average of those two numbers and use that?

Edit. Well, that's I did with the values from here: https://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/documents/document/zgrf/mdq0/~edisp/dd_044727.pdf

"Water Report is unbalanced". Not really sure what I'm missing here.




Ok, had to use the alkalinity conversion calculator to get estimated bicarbonate and carbonate concentration values.


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## technobabble66 (3/8/16)

kaiserben said:


> Dunno if it has changed, but the current version of EZ Water allows you to select putting all your additions in the mash, or splitting between mash/sparge.
> 
> After doing some reading I've recently decided that it's best to put them all in the mash and then acidify your sparge water (and I've bought phosphoric acid for that).


Sorry - can't remember exactly why i changed to Bru'n water, i just remember that i was unable to estimate/include something i was concerned about on EZ, and that Bru'n covered everything i needed, up to now. I vaguely recall it may've even had something to do with slightly strange variances of estimated pH depending on what i tweaked(?).
meh, no idea really, too many beers ago. I just know that Bru'n covered whatever it was i needed to know, plus more.


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## hopsock (9/8/16)

How long is mash and mashout?


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## RelaxedBrewer (9/8/16)

Couple of questions, is there anything different about the beers you have been brewing recently?

Are they all pale hoppy beers?

Are you no chilling?

Do they have a common ingredient (like same hops or hop supplier)?


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## Hopsta (9/8/16)

60min mash with 5min mash out. 
all pale/amber ales, not necessarily hoppy, 
ive chilled using counter flow and immersion
variety of ingredients from various suppliers.
variety of equipment too.

i'm convinced it is either water or environmental factors such as a nearby tree with wild yeasts in the pollen.

either way ive covered all bases thanks to the advice in this thread and am all set for my next brew on the weekend. fingers crossed.


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## Cervantes (9/8/16)

WarmerBeer said:


> Bought a decent quality hand held meter. Used it 5 times, all mashes at 5.2 pH, within margin of error. It now sits in my cupboard collecting dust and expiring the electrode.
> One of the most useless purchases I've ever made for brewing purposes.


Similar for me. Must drag it out again and check my next brew as I've recently changed my water source.


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## Kingrat (22/8/16)

kaiserben said:


> Dunno if it has changed, but the current version of EZ Water allows you to select putting all your additions in the mash, or splitting between mash/sparge.
> 
> After doing some reading I've recently decided that it's best to put them all in the mash and then acidify your sparge water (and I've bought phosphoric acid for that).


Kaiser, where did you source the phosphoric acid from? I assume it is food grade.


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## manticle (22/8/16)

Not sure who else but I've bought both lactic and phosphoric from grain and grape previously 
Need more, LHBS doesn't stock so GG will be my default.


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## wide eyed and legless (23/8/16)

You can buy "pH up" and "pH down" from hydroponic shops.


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## Hopsta (11/9/16)

3 brews in since I started this thread and.... The off flavour is GONE! everyone of them are winners. Couldn't be happier. Some changes I implemented based on your feedback. 
I boil the brew water prior to mash then let it cool.
I use bruin water/ezewater to calculate water treatments.
I test with pH meter.
I brew in the laundry now rather than out on the back deck.
I no chill every brew. 
I tried no sparge (BM) but prefer to sparge so have gone back to it with out any problems.

One or more of these things has been the cure. In any case I'm stoked that I've now got around 100 tallies bottle conditioning.

Cheers everyone for your help.


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## Dan Pratt (11/9/16)

I jus read through the thread, brewing inside is the answer. I always brewed inside then we moved house and I brewed outside and lost 5 batches. Went back to brewing inside and the problem went away.

You have learnt a bunch of new things about mash water pH etc which is helpful but the pH of your water is not why. Now to start kegging


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## manticle (11/9/16)

Either infection from local environs (negated by shifting brewing site) or reduced chloramines from boiling strike water - although your description of the issue matches infection rather than chlorephenols in my experience.


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## Hopsta (11/9/16)

Pratty1 said:


> I jus read through the thread, brewing inside is the answer. I always brewed inside then we moved house and I brewed outside and lost 5 batches. Went back to brewing inside and the problem went away.
> 
> You have learnt a bunch of new things about mash water pH etc which is helpful but the pH of your water is not why. Now to start kegging


i kegged many years ago, 9 kegs always full, always on rotation, dual tap kegerator etc... i found it was too easy and tempting to pour a pint every time i walked past. i put on too much weight. switched back to bottling, lost the weight. i only have a few tallies chilled at a time.. have 2 mini kegs on order as part of the bulk buy but thats more for picnics bbqs.


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## malt junkie (11/9/16)

Just did my first brew away from "infected environs", I feel for you, a lot of bloody hard work eliminating and isolating the cause. I have brewed in 4 states and probably 8 different houses over many years. So I was fairly confident in my methods, but even so after tipping 3 or 4 batches that confidence takes a hit. Glad to see you come out the other side.


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## postmaster (21/9/16)

Hoping someone can help me on this.
Coliban Water report. Looks like the water is SOFT ?
They do not measure separately - Calcium, Magnesium. They are accounted for in Alkalinity and Hardness measurements.
My mash PH is a bit high 5.7
Question ?
Is there anyway to work out the Calcium and Magnesium measurements from this report.
I can then put figures into a water program to get the correct results.
*[SIZE=10.5pt] Average [/SIZE]**[SIZE=10.5pt]Min [/SIZE]**[SIZE=10.5pt]Max[/SIZE]*
​[SIZE=10.5pt]Alkalinity (mg CaCO3/L) 19.7 12 31 [/SIZE]

Ca Calcium Not Measured

Mg Magnesium Not Measured 

Hardness (mg CaCO3/L) 28.2 15 68
​pH 7.4 7 8.2
​​[SIZE=10.5pt]Sulphate (mg/L) 20.8 12 43[/SIZE]
​[SIZE=10.5pt]Chloride (mg/L) 9.65 5 19[/SIZE]
​[SIZE=10.5pt]Sodium (mg/L) 10.7 4.4 23[/SIZE]


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (21/9/16)

If you have a look at data for surface waters in your area (eg here: http://data.water.vic.gov.au/monitoring.htm?ppbm=websw&rs&3&rskr_org) the Ca: Mg ratios appear to be around 3:1 by weight which is 1.8:1 by molarity.

We can combine this with the average values in your report to get the data you need..

The hardness value calculates to a total divalent cation content of 0.28 uM, conveniently that splits to 0.18 uM Ca and 0.1 uM Mg at the above ratio. Convert back to weight to give 7.2 mg/l Ca and 2.4 mg/l Mg.

Reality check: convert the other cation (Na) to molarity (0.47 uM), multiply all cations by valence and add them up, result 1.03 uEq.

Convert the alkaliniity to [C03 ] (0.2 uM), convert the other anions to molarity, multiply all anions by valence and add them up, result 1.10 uEq.

Good enough for jazz, the variance is probably due to the averaging used.


Edit: I took out the ionic state indicators (eg the 2+ on the calcium) to try to make things clearer.


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## jhsbaker (21/9/16)

Hi Hopsta,

Great discussion. I think a through a process of elimination you can sort this out:

- If not already done replace everything that touches cooled wort (eg no chill cubes / fermenter / hoses / etc) to ensure you don't have any bugs living in (possibly invisible to the eye) scratches
- Get water from a different source, pass through a carbon filter and adjust with bru'n water based on the water report. If you use distilled water go with 0 for your initial water estimates
- Ensure you are managing your yeast properly (it sounds like you are an experienced brewer, maybe you can already rule this out)

If you do both of these and still have the same problem maybe you need to be looking at your process, equipment and ingredients. A pH meter is a nice thing to have if it is reasonable quality to be able to rely on it, it is calibrated and you use it properly... if not you might be leading yourself astray. I would suggest that if you use bru'n water properly with the water report for local water or distilled water you should be close enough that pH will be within acceptable limits.


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## rude (21/9/16)

I use a ph meter AD12 but once you dial the beer you are making in you could leave the test out
but it just eats away at me so I test

I find Brun water very good 

I aim for 5.3 for my pale beers & 5.4 ,5.5 the darker I go but still playing around with it

I also brew outside but no chill which is easier to control sanitation for me

Hopsta you are a fussy bugger tipping those beers I used to get the astringency but would still drink them :unsure:


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## checkers (27/9/16)

Guys I've been having exactly the same problem, yet I check my PH, make sure my mash is at 5.2 and I sparge with ph5.2 water at roughly 25c in a homemade 1v vessel like a grain father... I'd love to know why I'm getting this horrible bitterness and poor hop flavour and aroma.


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## manticle (27/9/16)

You sparge at 25 deg C or you measure pH at 25?

How do you ensure mash pH is at 5.2?
Can you describe the bad aroma and flavour, how long it' s been discernible and what changes in ingredients and/or process with which it coincides?


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## Hopsta (28/9/16)

James said:


> Hi Hopsta,
> 
> Great discussion. I think a through a process of elimination you can sort this out:
> 
> ...


All sorted James, post #47 Got 4 brews down problem free. I believe it was a combination of issues contributing to the off flavours hence it was so hard to pin down. Either way, i now have all bases covered! Cheers!


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## Ditchnbeer (28/9/16)

I like this topic and think that if you want to move from making good beer to making great beer then starting measuring & adjusting mash pH.

After some initial investment and learning, checking pH can become just a part of your brew day, doesn't take too long and I believe will help your beer.

I usually:

adjust sparge water in HLT to < pH 6 using lactic acid (only 1.5 mls for me)
add my salts at dough in and measure pH 15 minutes later
measure pH at same temp that meter is calibrated at (room temp / ~20 degrees for me). Dont stick yr pen tester in mash temps!
cal meter before every use (use 4.0 and 7.0 buffers to set scale correctly


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## checkers (30/9/16)

manticle said:


> You sparge at 25 deg C or you measure pH at 25?
> 
> How do you ensure mash pH is at 5.2?
> Can you describe the bad aroma and flavour, how long it' s been discernible and what changes in ingredients and/or process with which it coincides?



Sparge at 25c roughly... Room temp really.. Measure ph at room temp also but sometimes fill up keggle with hot water out of bath if I'm in hurry then measure ph at that (roughly 55c) is that bad?

The aroma is not bad and indeed smells in accordance to the hop I have used but just not pungent like ripping into a can of pirate life or something. I'm sort of getting horrible bitterness with maximum late hop additions with minimal flavour and aroma. I just keg hopped a galaxy pale ale with 100g of galaxy and it really didn't add much aroma. The beer definitely got more bitter and less enjoyable though.


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## Danscraftbeer (1/10/16)

Its an art. Brewing to your own preference. A much bigger stress brewing for popularity I wouldn't want to consider.
In the past I take notes of the actual outcome. According to your own preferences. That is home brew.


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## altone (1/10/16)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Its an art. Brewing to your own preference. A much bigger stress brewing for popularity I wouldn't want to consider.
> In the past I take notes of the actual outcome. According to your own preferences. That is home brew.


Have to agree with this, some of my "accidents" have been awesome beers that I purposely rebrew .True to style - nope

My Sparky mate always suggest I put the beer he's drinking into a competition " 'cause it's great!"
I make a fairly weak pale ale for him and a few other megaswill drinking mates - I don't drink it, so comp winner - no chance.

Brew something you like, and tweak it till you like it more. If others don't like it - they can bring their own,
or you could make something safe and bland for them to drink instead.

Follow your own path but make sure to keep an eye on what others are doing.

I keep the kegs full with ESB which I grew up with and APA but try as many styles as I can over time as you never know,
if that Chilli chocolate porter experiment that everyone hates might just be your all time favorite.


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