# Need help interpreting a poor water report



## goatchop41 (23/6/15)

So after making a porter that turned out a bit too astringent for my liking (and accounting for other potential causes - eg. I cold steeped the dark grains so that they didn't contribute astringency, etc.) I decided to have a look at the local water chemistry (Bendigo). It seems a bit different to the reported levels in a past discussion in the local homebrew club forum B.A.D.

The water report that I received from the local supplier (Coliban Water) was pretty poor (this is for the last 12 months water supply):

*Parameter: average ppm (minimum-maximum)*
Copper: 0.01 (0.01-0.02)
Hardness*: 92 (63-130)
Iron: 0.01 (0.01-0.02)
Sodium: 30 (16-49)
Zinc: 0.01 (0.00-0.00)

*The report states "we do not test for calcium and magnesium separately, but hardness is measured, which accounts for the calcium and magnesium content in the water"

So....no mention of pH, no mention of bicarbonate, and calcium/magnesium are presented as one value.... :huh:
Is there any way that I could extrapolate the provided values to work out the parameters that weren't reported on?


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## antiphile (23/6/15)

That really is a rather hopeless water report. May I suggest you also try your shire council's website to see if there's a more complete water quality report?

However, you may well be able to extrapolate more info from it by downloading a copy of the SI-unit version of Bru'n Water (https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/home/files). Then spend 15 mins watching the YouTube tutorial to get the maximum info out of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMTA_VmqhbQ

Cheers


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## Danscraftbeer (23/6/15)

Do you have rain water tanks? I have been tempted to make a brew with rain tank water.
When its clearest and that is more in winter than summer.
I'm in Melbourne and we can be quite confident in our tap water. One of the factors that make it the most livable city etc.
I dont bother adjusting the chemistry basically because adjustments (by software design) raise the PH. I dont like that idea.

Unknown as to what to match rainwater too in software or whatnot. The PH is pretty much the same as my tap water. PH ~ 7.3


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## manticle (23/6/15)

Most adjustments are designed to drop pH dan - calcium sulphate, calcium chloride, acid, acidulated malt, etc. Only in very dark beers is water adjustment intended to drive pH upwards because of the natural acidifying effect of darker grains.


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## manticle (23/6/15)

To OP - I cannot see how you can break down total permanent hardness into separate concentrations of Mg and Ca. Also not sure how they measure it if they don't measure those two things but presumably they can. I'm far from expert - just know the basics behind brewing water/mash adjustments.


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## dicko (23/6/15)

You can treat rainwater as RO water in most cases.
If you plug this into a software water program as RO and adjust as per your recipe for grain then you will be close.

Take readings of mash PH for your brew, write down all results and compare/ adjust to suit....you wont be too far out.
You wont guess PH so you will have to get a reasonably reliable PH meter.

My opinion, with a very well insulated flame suit donned, is that if you believe a water analysis as stated from a water supplier in this country then you need to find a very old gentleman with a white beard and climb up on his knee and have him tell you fairy stories.

If I may elaborate, the assumption that rainwater that is collected from a clean source and in a clean container / tank is close to RO is a lot closer that what any water authority is stating....they are only telling you at best, a well guessed average and at worst, what they think you may want to hear.

To the OP, that report is useless for brewing.


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## goatchop41 (24/6/15)

Thanks for all of the input everyone.
As soon as I opened the envelope and saw the report I had a sinking feeling that it looked useless :angry2:

Might give the local shire/council a call and see if they can shed any more light on it


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## Black n Tan (24/6/15)

Some info in here, but not calcium and magnesium levels. Typically calcium levels are higher than magnesium levels and have a greater affect on residual alkalinity. It does have min and max alkalinity though. 

http://www.coliban.com.au/site/root/operations/documents/CW_SDWAAnnualReport2013_2014.pdf


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## klangers (15/7/15)

I'd say they've expressed hardness as equivalent CaCO3. When these things go into solution they disassociate into their separate ions. Magnesium and calcium ions do the same thing, just at different "strengths". They do bring different tastes to the beer (apparently) but the main reason for their addition into brew water is to buffer the residual alkalinity.

Balance the hardness with PPM of Ca through additions of gypsum (calcium sulphate) or calcium chloride to the style of your beer and you're away. You may need some sodium bicarbonate to up the alkalinity too for darker beers.

Sulphates and chlorides will affect the flavour of the beer, but without knowing the concentration of these in your water supply my recommendation would be to just add what you need to get the correct residual alkalinity. This way at least your mash pH will set up to be within spec so your efficiency doesn't go wrong.


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## goatchop41 (16/7/15)

klangers said:


> Balance the hardness with PPM of Ca through additions of gypsum (calcium sulphate) or calcium chloride to the style of your beer and you're away. You may need some sodium bicarbonate to up the alkalinity too for darker beers.
> 
> Sulphates and chlorides will affect the flavour of the beer, but without knowing the concentration of these in your water supply my recommendation would be to just add what you need to get the correct residual alkalinity. This way at least your mash pH will set up to be within spec so your efficiency doesn't go wrong.


My issue here is that I don't know the alkalinity of the water, because they have not reported on pH....

Any suggestions for how I would implement either of your proposed solutions for a basic pale ale? (eg. amounts, etc.) I'm having a hard time working out how much that I would add of the sulphate or chloride, and I don't brew often enough to be able to just experiment


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## slcmorro (16/7/15)

Use a simple aquarium test kit for a PH reading?


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## klangers (17/7/15)

goatchop41 said:


> My issue here is that I don't know the alkalinity of the water, because they have not reported on pH....
> 
> Any suggestions for how I would implement either of your proposed solutions for a basic pale ale? (eg. amounts, etc.) I'm having a hard time working out how much that I would add of the sulphate or chloride, and I don't brew often enough to be able to just experiment


pH is less important than it seems. To quote Mr Palmer:

_"*Water pH*
You would think that the pH of the water is important but actually it is not. It is the pH of the mash that is important, and that number is dependent on all of the ions we have been discussing. In fact, the ion concentrations are not relevant by themselves and it is not until the water is combined with a specific grain bill that the overall pH is determined, and it is that pH which affects the activity of the mash enzymes and the propensity for the extraction of astringent tannins from the grain husks."_

When water has dissolved salts, the salts act as a buffer. This is what water hardness refers to. The amount and type of these buffering salts determine how "hard" it is to change the pH. pH on its own is not very important. For example, if you had very alkaline distilled water (no salts) then you can reduce the pH with very little acid. On the other hand, if you have alkaline water with very large amounts of buffering salts then adding acid will do very much less.


What I'm getting at here is that it looks like you've been given hardness presented as equivalent ppm of CO3-2. This carbonate ion may have originated from calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate, but they didn't measure for those ions. Alkalinity is related to hardness in that higher concentrations of carbonates mean than the water is more alkaline as the carbonates buffer any attempts to reduce pH.

The whole idea of adding salts is to produce the level of acidic or alkaline buffering in order to get the mash pH where you want it to be. Darker malts are more acidic, so you add more carbonates to buffer this. For lighter malts you want less buffering capability - so you can use very pure water or compensate by adding calcium chloride for example. Calcium ions "balance" the carbonate ions to a certain extent.

It all becomes a bit more complex when you take into account the flavour effects - then you start adding sulphates to balance chlorides and so forth.

Moral of the story: try adding 70 ppm of calcium sulphate (gypsum) for a pale ale and see how you go. PPM is mg per L.


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## heyhey (24/7/15)

Victorian councils have nothing to do with water like other states. No point in asking them

Most regional water authorities in Vic will not do testing outside the Dept of Health's requirements, as there is no commercial reason to do so. If you have a large food processor in town that comes off the same supply, it might be worth giving them a call and see if they'll share their water quality results? Or even call a local brewery

I'd just go with Klangers suggestion, it's only homebrewing after all. Not contract brewing or a blind taste test comparison.


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## Matplat (31/8/15)

dicko said:


> You can treat rainwater as RO water in most cases.
> If you plug this into a software water program as RO and adjust as per your recipe for grain then you will be close.
> 
> Take readings of mash PH for your brew, write down all results and compare/ adjust to suit....you wont be too far out.
> ...


I just drank a bottle of water that said on the side that is had been purified by reverse osmosis.

It tastes very similar to the rainwater that I drink at home....

I'l be using 100% rainwater for my brewing, local water here tastes like shit.


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## goatchop41 (31/8/15)

Matplat said:


> I just drank a bottle of water that said on the side that is had been purified by reverse osmosis.
> 
> It tastes very similar to the rainwater that I drink at home....
> 
> I'l be using 100% rainwater for my brewing, local water here tastes like shit.


Yep, even though our tap water here is actually quite fine taste-wise, I've ended up just going over to the missus' place and filling up a few cubes with their tank water when I need to do a brew


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## desitter (2/9/15)

That really is quite a poor report. If you're able to find either the Ca or Mg (ppm / mg/L) you can find the other via -

(Ca / 20 + Mg / 12.1) x 50 = 92 (Your hardness as CaCO3)

You can also purchase pool alkalinity titration kits fairly cheaply. So long as your pH is above ~7 and below ~10 then you can assume the alkalinity is in the form of bicarbonates. If accuracy on these kits is a problem (though they normally are accurate to within ~10 ppm of alkalinity as CaCO3), can you double the sample water quantity and consider each drop of the neutralizing solution as half the recommend value (e.g. 10 ppm becomes 5 ppm per drop for example). There are general brewers test kits you can order from the US which will allow you to determine all the required parameters, though they are typically a little pricey. Maybe you can talk a few club members into splitting the cost. Google 'brewing water test kits'. There may be some laboratories in AU that will test for you, though I can't recommend any.


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## indica86 (23/9/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> One of the factors that make it the most livable city etc.


You what? Most liveable my arse.


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