# Crystal Vs Dark Crystal - Do You Need Both ?



## BOG (25/11/08)

Well this one sounds pretty stright forward but I suspect it isn't.

What's the difference between Joe White Crystal (145 EBC) and Joe White Dark Crystal (250 EBC)?
Beersmith tells me 500gms of 145 is the same as 300 grms of 250 (or near enough.)

So,

Why have both in your inventory when you can get away with just one?
What other flavours / benefits do you get from using one over the other being that they origionate from the same base malt.

Do the roast / grain / caramel flavours not track to the same ratios as EBC when they are from the same malt?



BOG


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## fraser_john (25/11/08)

Its a combination of both the color and the residual sweetness that you will get in the final beer, 500gms of lighter stuff will give a lot more residual sweetness than the 300gms of the darker stuff!

So it really depends on the color and residual sweetness that has to be balanced out!


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## BOG (25/11/08)

Residual Sweetness? I'm assuming you mean unfermented sugars. 

The yeast will chew up what ut's given so there will be no more than usual.



BPG


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## brettprevans (25/11/08)

there will be more *un*fermentable sugars so the yeast wont 'chew up whats its given'. more unfermwentable sugars means more residual sweetness.

also using twice the amount of 1 type of grain to get a simialr gravity/colour result of another type of grain is twice as expensive.


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## bconnery (25/11/08)

BOG said:


> Well this one sounds pretty stright forward but I suspect it isn't.
> 
> What's the difference between Joe White Crystal (145 EBC) and Joe White Dark Crystal (250 EBC)?
> Beersmith tells me 500gms of 145 is the same as 300 grms of 250 (or near enough.)
> ...


why have both? Because they give different flavours as well as colour. 
500gms of crystal maybe the same as 300gms of dark crystal colour wise but you certainly won't get the same flavour. 
No more than say (not real numbers, just to illustrate the point) than say 75g of 1000EBC roast or chocolate would be the same as 300gms of 250EBC dark crystal. 

All grains have a flavour profile as well. The difference between 145EBC and say 180EBC might be slight but not when you start talking about 145/250. 

It isn't just a case of this grain having "twice" as much colour and flavour, no...


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## Stuster (25/11/08)

Different types of crystal give different flavours. Roughly, lighter crystals give more sweetness, mid-range crystals have more of a caramel touch, darker crystals give more toffee or dark fruits flavours. Subbing more of a lighter crystal might give you the same colour, but not the same flavour. The different maltsters make different malts as well, so British crystal is not the same as a Weyermann malt of about the same colour. Both are good though.  Chew up some grains of each and see how they taste to get an idea of what they give to the beer.


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## BOG (25/11/08)

Well I sort of expected to get a bit of a slap for asking a silly question. But i needed to do it.

Re: citymorgue comment on unfermented sugars. I wasn't aware that the sugars from crystal where unfermentable.


BOG


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## Hefty (25/11/08)

BOG said:


> Well I sort of expected to get a bit of a slap for asking a silly question. But i needed to do it.
> 
> Re: citymorgue comment on unfermented sugars. I wasn't aware that the sugars from crystal where unfermentable.
> 
> ...


My understanding was that crystal grains have some fermentable and some unfermentable sugar but that amount of unfermentable sugar differs between lighter and darker types.
Is this correct?

Cheers!
Jono.


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## peas_and_corn (25/11/08)

When you mash any grains you get unfermentables- the amount and type of unfermentables is highly dependent on the type of grain used, mash temps etc etc.


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## Jazzafish (25/11/08)

I was getting worried at the early replies, leaning towards the theory that a little less dark crystal will give the same result of adding a bit more light crystal! Colour maybe... but the flavour is different. Glad some of the other lads chimed in with this, as the only brewers who look at dark crystal being a substitute for light crystal are either out of stock or brewing mega swill.


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## geoffd (25/11/08)

I agree with Stuster & Bconnery, the flavour is significantly different & not interchangeable. I just love dark crystal, combined with choc malt 3:2 ratio it gives a brilliant dark berry flavour; stronger than cranberries but lighter than blackcurrents, the lighter crystals seem to just add sweetness, they personally remind me of twang you get in LME (i'm not a fan).


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## geoffd (25/11/08)

The matter of sweetness is a bit more complicated in my opinion. It is a complete malt balancing act.

on the sweet side
Crystal or wet roasted malts add sweetness
Body adds sweetness
Melanoids (incl munich & vienna) are sweet though less than crystal
Flaked barley, although not sweet itself, adds body

on the dry side
Higher attenuation - less body
Base malt.
Dry roast malts - choc / black patent / roasted barley

Then after the dry malts have counteracted some of the sweetness, hop bitterness can counteract the rest. Some hop flavour can add to the sweetness: like cascade or amarillo
Obviously yeast can add to the sweetness or dryness, pending on the strain (type/temp etc)

So its a matter of balancing the beer with the ingredients that suit the style you're making or to suit your personal taste. Please dont shoot me if i've ommitted any examples of sweet or dry contributers, I'm just trying to convey a point that it is not just about an individual malt selection; it needs to be assessed in the context in which it is used.


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## buttersd70 (25/11/08)

Father Jack said:


> The matter of sweetness is a bit more complicated in my opinion. It is a complete malt balancing act.
> .....
> 
> So its a matter of balancing the beer with the ingredients that suit the style you're making or to suit your personal taste. .....



Absolutely agree. One thing balances the other, and it's the balance that leads to complexity......subtlle complexity, as opposed to confusion of flavours. Father Jack's hit the nail bang on the head.


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## Back Yard Brewer (25/11/08)

citymorgue2 said:


> also using twice the amount of 1 type of grain to get a simialr gravity/colour result of another type of grain is twice as expensive.



I also remeber from the ANHC when John Palmer had his presentation that two parts of a particular grain at say 150ebc won't necessarily equal 1 part at 300ebc. Using dark and light crystal as an example.

BYB


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