# Reiterated Mashing



## Jye (28/11/07)

Has anyone given this ago?

I havent read the byo article but there is a thread on the brewboard and a basicbrewing show on it. From what Ive gathered it involves a number of smaller consecutive mashes (2-3) with each following mash using the sparge from the previous. An example would be if you had a 9 kg grain bill to only mash 3 kg at a normal water to grain ratio. Drain this mash and sparge with all of your brewing water BUT at a low temp so the next 3 kg of grain may be added to this liquor and mashed. Finally drain this 2nd mash and add the last 3 kg of grain and mash. Note the final 2 mashes are full boil volume mashes.

The idea is the enzymes are carried over from mash to mash increasing the mash efficiency. The 1st and 2nd mash times may also be decreased (20min) since the enzymes and starches are dissolved and will be carried over to the next mash.

I dont see the advantage in doing this over a single larger mash but instantly thought this maybe suited to BIAB brewers since they are already doing full volume mashing and can easily remove/add grain.

So whos keen to give it ago?


----------



## kook (28/11/07)

I've read the article and I'm also keen to hear if any others have tried it. I'd like to give it a go, but don't have any beers planned that would really fit it. I can only see it suiting super high abv pale barley wines or "extreme" creations like 120min IPA clones.

I can only see the advantage for really high gravity (1.160+) wort which must also be light in colour. Otherwise its much easier to just boil the wort down to the required concentration.

edit:

Actually, I can now see how this could get past some of the limitations I percieve to exist with high gravity BIAB brews. The only issue I can see is dealing with the losses due to reabsorption.


----------



## Ross (28/11/07)

I'm going to be doing this on my next Dopplebock.
I tried extended boiling on my last dopplebock & ended up with a lovely beer but with no head. Talking to a pro brewer, he informed me that the extended boiling was the problem & not to boil past 90 mins. He personally doesn't boil past 75 mins.

I'll report back with how it goes & take some pics if i remember...

cheers Ross


----------



## Jye (28/11/07)

kook said:


> I can only see the advantage for really high gravity (1.160+) wort which must also be light in colour. Otherwise its much easier to just boil the wort down to the required concentration.



I dont see lighter coloured beers as an advantage of this method, it would be easier just to increase the size of your grain bill and have a normal boil time.


----------



## kevnlis (28/11/07)

It would also be good for people with a 25L esky tun that want to do a high gravity wort. They could use this method to fit all of the grain in without having to lower the grist/liquor ratio to a point of greatly decreasing the efficiency.


----------



## kook (28/11/07)

Jye said:


> I dont see lighter coloured beers as an advantage of this method, it would be easier just to increase the size of your grain bill and have a normal boil time.



I can't see how you can achieve really high gravities by increasing your grain bill? There is only so much that you can get out of your grain  

Even if you have a really low liquor/grist ratio, and don't sparge, you can still only achieve a certain maximum gravity. For example, I did a partigyle brew a while back to create a Belgian Dark Strong and a lower ABV beer. The Belgian Dark Strong used only the first runnings, with no sparge water. Before I added the sugar, this had an og of about 1.095.


----------



## Jye (28/11/07)

kook said:


> Even if you have a really low liquor/grist ratio, and don't sparge, you can still only achieve a certain maximum gravity.



I see what your saying now  As you said this method is good for HUGE beers 1.160+


----------



## kook (28/11/07)

Would be pretty cool to try this with 2 mash tuns actually (an extra kettle or two would help too). Drain the first runnings from mash #1 to dough-in mash #2. Then sparge mash tun #1, make a beer from the runnings.

Drain mash #2 and use these first runnings for a massive beer, then sparge this and make another beer! A bit of creativity with specialty grains added to either mash after draining and you could make two different reasonable strength beers and one huge monster 

May be a brew-day project for someone ambitious?


----------



## Simon W (28/11/07)

> May be a brew-day project for someone ambitious?



ausdb's next WBBD?


----------



## randyrob (28/11/07)

that really does sound like some fun kook! i think i've read simular in Radical Brewing along with Parti-gyle brewing

has anyone heard about kirin's advertising lately "first press beer" where they only use the first running in their beer?

is this just marketing at play?

Rob.


----------



## Vlad the Pale Aler (28/11/07)

So its a bit like making a starter for your mash.


----------



## BrissyBrew (28/11/07)

brew a double double, or in this case a triple triple, by adding fresh grain each time, watch the gravity rise.


----------



## Kai (28/11/07)

kook said:


> Would be pretty cool to try this with 2 mash tuns actually (an extra kettle or two would help too). Drain the first runnings from mash #1 to dough-in mash #2. Then sparge mash tun #1, make a beer from the runnings.
> 
> Drain mash #2 and use these first runnings for a massive beer, then sparge this and make another beer! A bit of creativity with specialty grains added to either mash after draining and you could make two different reasonable strength beers and one huge monster
> 
> May be a brew-day project for someone ambitious?



I've heard this mentioned in a few places. jonnylieberman on BeerAdvocate's forums did one a while back. 

Myself, I'd rather just do a partigyle. I love those things. But, if you have a small mash tun then I can see the advantage.


----------



## mika (28/11/07)

There must get to a point where the liquor you're trying to mash-in with won't carry any more sugars and your extraction efficiency goes to hell. I think you'd also have to be able to heat the 1st runnings up somehow to be able to hit your mash in temps for the re-iteration. I've got the BYO magazine and did kinda read the article, but couldn't quite see the point. Bt if someone's willing to try it at a brew day I'd come round to watch.


----------



## Kai (28/11/07)

It doesn't sound like a very efficient process to me either unless you do as kook says and make a small beer off the sparge and then you're back to the whole partigyle thing. And the small mash tun factor again, of course.

Since you mention it though, wikipedia says the solubility of maltose in 20C water is 1.080 g/ml. Of course that's only a very rough indication but nonetheless that'd be a pretty stiff wort.

[edit] I'm sure there's a point where the enzymes shit themselves and stop converting though. But I reckon you'll have have more than the yeast can convert long before that.


----------



## mika (28/11/07)

Pah !...that's a mid-strength round here ! h34r:


----------



## ausdb (29/11/07)

Kai said:


> I've heard this mentioned in a few places. jonnylieberman on BeerAdvocate's forums did one a while back.
> 
> Myself, I'd rather just do a partigyle. I love those things. But, if you have a small mash tun then I can see the advantage.



He's one of the Ruthless brewing guys, they do some great stuff here is the url to the page about their attempt but the site does not seem to be working at the moment.
http://lossilverechos.com/beer/e/bw3.html

Its also described in Moshers Radical brewing page 135 as a Doble Doble

SimonW don't give me ideas I might even start brewing again!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Thirsty Boy (29/11/07)

So... its really just a way of adding more and more grain, but you take the first lot out so you don't run out of room and your mash doesn't get too thick??

As Jye said.. I think this would be easy to do BIAB style.

All the water and first grain in, mash, pull out bag etc
Dump the grain, put the bag back in and then put in your second lot of grain, mash, pull out bag
Repeat

I'm not sure that it would actually be really any different to simply putting the whole lot of the grain in the pot in the first place... but its certainly an option if your pot is too small to do that.

Why is it that you sparge with all your brewing water and then mash the second/third mashes in full volume? Is it so the sugar concentration doesn't get too high and inhibit the enzymes?

Why not just do two smaller mashes; and take only the first runnings from each. I think I may be missing something.

I will certainly be looking at this though for higher gravity brews on my non-BIAB system. I only have a 20L mashtun and cant do really big beers on it


----------



## Ross (29/11/07)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Why not just do two smaller mashes; and take only the first runnings from each. I think I may be missing something.
> 
> I will certainly be looking at this though for higher gravity brews on my non-BIAB system. I only have a 20L mashtun and cant do really big beers on it



Thirsty, 

You certainly could do 2 mashes & just collect the 1st runnings, but then you'd need to collect the 2nd runnings both times & make a smaller brew, to get your efficiency out of the grain used.
This method seem perfect for getting high efficiency out of a high gravity mash without having to sparge with excess water & then boil longer. I get 85% efficiency from a typical 5kg 5% brew, but this drops dramatically as I increase the grain volume. Using this technique, I'll do 2 x 5kg mashes , using the liqour from the previous mash to convert the 2nd mash. I'm hoping to get similar efficiency to a standard batch - time will tell.  

Cheers Ross


----------



## kook (29/11/07)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Why is it that you sparge with all your brewing water and then mash the second/third mashes in full volume? Is it so the sugar concentration doesn't get too high and inhibit the enzymes?
> 
> Why not just do two smaller mashes; and take only the first runnings from each. I think I may be missing something.



You don't.

You only collect the first runnings of the first mash, then use this to dough in another mash.

As you said, for BIAB it would work like this (based on a 50L kettle):

Dough in 12.5kg grain until you fill the pot. Mash. Pull out bag.

Stick in another fresh bag of grain. Raise the temp back to mash temp if necessary.

After that is done, you pull out the second bag. Really inefficient way of doing things, but it would be good for producing 1.100+ all malt worts with BIAB.


----------



## ausdb (29/11/07)

kook said:


> You don't.
> 
> You only collect the first runnings of the first mash, then use this to dough in another mash.
> 
> ...


And if you don't BIAB then you get to make "small beer" with the second runnings ala parti-gyle but you still need two mash tuns


----------



## Jye (29/11/07)

kook said:


> You only collect the first runnings of the first mash, then use this to dough in another mash.



The impression I got from Chris Colby on BB radio is that the first mash is sparged to rinse all of the sugar and the resulting 2nd and 3rd mash is full volume. Otherwise you would get terrible efficiency from the first mash.

What does the byo article say?


----------



## kook (29/11/07)

Jye said:


> The impression I got from Chris Colby on BB radio is that the first mash is sparged to rinse all of the sugar and the resulting 2nd and 3rd mash is full volume. Otherwise you would get terrible efficiency from the first mash.
> 
> What does the byo article say?



Maybe I misread the article? I'll have to check it tonight.

I thought you only used the first runnings, as sparging it would dilute it making it harder to reach that high gravity.


----------



## Ross (29/11/07)

Jye said:


> The impression I got from Chris Colby on BB radio is that the first mash is sparged to rinse all of the sugar and the resulting 2nd and 3rd mash is full volume. Otherwise you would get terrible efficiency from the first mash.
> 
> What does the byo article say?



Not quite,

The first mash is fully sparged, but you only add enough wort for normal mash ratios in the second. You then heat up the remaining wort & sparge the second mash with that. Hope I'm making sense?

cheers Ross


----------



## Thirsty Boy (29/11/07)

Ross said:


> Not quite,
> 
> The first mash is fully sparged, but you only add enough wort for normal mash ratios in the second. You then heat up the remaining wort & sparge the second mash with that. Hope I'm making sense?
> 
> cheers Ross



That makes much more sense from a technique point of veiw.

I can see where you would get a mild increase in efficiency from doing a "big" beer in this way. But I cant see where it would be a lot.

Say you put your whole grain bill for 1.100 beer in at once . Just to pluck figures out of my bum, call it 11kg of grain and you collect 27L of wort @ a pre-boil of 1.085. That gives you 27x85=2295 extract points

If you batch sparged, your final runnings would be (roughly) 33% the strength of the first ones. Assuming the batch volumes are equal and you did two drainings of 13.5L that means your second runnings had a gravity of 1.038 (I had to do a little algebra) If you have 1L of deadspace and you lose 1.1L/kg of grain then you lost [email protected]= 498 gravity points.

The higher the grain bill, the more you lose and the less efficient you become.

If you did the reiterated mash thing you gain because you reduce the grain bill at the end -- at the end of the second mash, your pre-boil gravity and volume would be the same, your last runnings gravity would be the same too because while you are using less grain, you added gravity points by using wort as your sparge liquor. It should all even out.

So in this case you would lose points to the first mash - doing all the figures it would be final runnings x grain loss (no deadspace unless you tip it out) 23x5.5= 126 gravity points
and you would lose in the second mash 5.5l to grain + 1L to deadspace at 1.038 so 38x6.5= 247. Total loss over the two mashes would be 247+126=373

So your inherrent losses (which are the ones that increase in a batch sparge when you increase gravity and grain bill) are going to be (498-373)/498 x 100 = 25%ish less severe using the reitterated mash. So if you were dropping from 75% efficiency to 60% efficiency, you would expect to gain back about 25% of the loss and end up at 63.75% efficiency.

So my ballpark number crunching says you will get back roughly 25% of efficiency lost when increasing your grain bill... say your sparge etc work a bit better in a smaller mash and call it 30% But thats only the proportion of the loss, so an actual increase of say 5% in extract efficiency for the brew???

Worth doing?? dunno.

If your mash tun isn't big enough for the whole batch, absolutely, but otherwise??

Not knocking it, not saying it doesn't work or its a waste of time, I'll probably give it a go.. just thinking out loud thats all.

Thirsty


----------



## Jye (29/11/07)

Ross if you get a chance listen to the BB show, in it Chris talks about full volume mashing... maybe he has 2 methods :huh: 

If I was to give it ago I wouldnt bother sparging. Lately I have been doing a single run off (add all of my brew water after the mash and draining) with no sparge and have only been loosing a few efficiency points.


----------



## Kai (29/11/07)

kook said:


> As you said, for BIAB it would work like this (based on a 50L kettle):
> 
> Dough in 12.5kg grain until you fill the pot. Mash. Pull out bag.
> 
> ...



I was thinking the same. Just like dunking two tea bags in your cup.


----------



## Ross (29/11/07)

Jye said:


> Ross if you get a chance listen to the BB show, in it Chris talks about full volume mashing... maybe he has 2 methods :huh:
> 
> If I was to give it ago I wouldnt bother sparging. Lately I have been doing a single run off (add all of my brew water after the mash and draining) with no sparge and have only been loosing a few efficiency points.



I was only refering to the BYO magazine artical on brewing big beers.
My mash tun isn't big enough to do a single mash out, or I would - a few points lost don't worry me (I've got a cheap grain supply  ). The high alcohol brews I do though drop dramitcally in efficiency, so keen to see if this helps - According to the article it will.

cheers Ross


----------



## chris.taylor.98 (29/11/07)

Has anyone tried this out yet?

I'm keen to give it a go for a monster barley wine, more to get the high gravity wort then increased efficiency.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (30/11/07)

Kai said:


> I was thinking the same. Just like dunking two tea bags in your cup.



Cool, exactly the right analogy.

This would actually be pretty easy to do. I might try a reitterated BIAB barleywine in the new year


----------



## Dave86 (7/11/08)

Has anyone given this a go? I want to brew a massive barleywine sometime in the 12 months as a bit of a commemorative brew for when I finish uni in a couple of weeks. I figure it'll take me a while to get set-up when I move and to replenish stocks, so the brew day might not be for a while. 

I figured this might be a good way to try and make a high-gravity beer from all malt. I've generally getting 75% efficiency lately and want to use 100% floor malted ale malt from ross. Can anyone give some advice as to what I should expect efficiency wise? Similar to what I've been getting or a slight drop (how much?)?

Cheers

Dave

Edit: Just started a thread on the beer I want to brew using this method here


----------



## SJW (7/11/08)

> I tried extended boiling on my last dopplebock & ended up with a lovely beer but with no head.


Thats what happend to my last dopplebock, I boiled for 3 hours and ended up with no head. Next I will just use the first runnings.


----------



## Jye (17/1/10)

I tried this method a while back for a wheat wine (batch #100) which never made it to the fermenter so Im giving it another go. The plans is to;

- Mash half as normal and drain into the kettle.
- Add the rest of HLT water as sparge and drain into HLT.
- Empty MLT spent grain and refill with new.
- Mash with previous sparge water.
- Drain into kettle. 
- Sparge with any left over 1st mash sparge water.

It work well with the first attempt of Eleanor and I ended up with about a 10% gain in eff compared to how I normally mash large grain bills (>10kg).

*100b - Eleanor (Wheat Wine III)*
American Barleywine 


Type: All Grain
Date: 17/01/2010 
Batch Size: 21.00 L
Brewer: Jye
Boil Size: 27.46 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: SK Brew Hous 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.00 
Taste Notes: 38.25L of HLT water

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
9.00 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SRM) Grain 80.00 % 
2.25 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (3.0 SRM) Grain 20.00 % 

30.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.40 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops - 
50.00 gm Simcoe [11.90 %] (60 min) Hops 51.1 IBU 
50.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.90 %] (20 min) Hops 23.2 IBU 
50.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.90 %] (5 min) Hops 7.6 IBU 

5.50 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
5.50 gm Calcium Sulfate (Gypsum) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
6.00 gm Calcium Carbonate (Mash 5.0 min) Misc 

1 Pkgs Safale American US-56 Yeast-Ale 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.101 SG
Measured Original Gravity: SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.023 SG Measured Final Gravity: SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 10.15 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: % 
Bitterness: 81.9 IBU Calories: 1,106 cal/l 
Est Color: 6.2 SRM Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: SK Brew Hous Mash Total Grain Weight: 11.25 kg 
Sparge Water: 11.60 L Grain Temperature: 30.0 C 
Sparge Temperature: 100.0 C TunTemperature: 30.0 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

SK Brew Hous Mash Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
90 min Mash In Add 28.12 L of water at 72.8 C 65.0 C 


... and would anyone care to guess why my wheat wines are now called Eleanor <_<


----------



## Jye (17/1/10)

Ended up with an eff of 63.5% (26L @ 1.086 into the kettle) so a little better than expected


----------



## raven19 (17/1/10)

Jye said:


> *100b - Eleanor (Wheat Wine III)*
> American Barleywine ...
> 
> ... and would anyone care to guess why my wheat wines are now called Eleanor <_<



I would wager a 'Gone in 60 Seconds' issue - is it every time you try and make a wheat wine something goes wrong???


----------



## Jye (17/1/10)

Yep... and this one may sill be ruined  found a small burnt patch on the base of the kettle.


----------



## Yob (24/8/15)

Bit of a necro..

I/weve been playing with reiterated mashing for a little bit now, Ive done/assisted in 3 now I think.. On the weekend we had a 150l mash tun and a 300l mash tun to get through 300kg of grain, resulting in the order of 350L of 1.140 RIS (or there abouts ??) mind you that was diluted by 100L of tap water to get to volume so the actual OG would have been much higher without the stuck sparge and abandoned grain bed.

Some of the issues faced this time was a stuck sparge or two, not great when you're dealing with that much grain.. anyway, point being, first runnings of the mash (with reiterated wort) couldnt be read on the refractometer, second runnings were 1.100 and third runnings was about 1.070 if I recall correctly.

Mardoo has all the stats, I came in late to the show due to other commitments with bulk buys etc.. Im giving heavy consideration to building a 5th vessel for reiterating with ease, maybe a 40L esky or a 50L rubberised keg. I do seem to be brewing more and more _*BIG*_ beers.. now I've got all the RIS I need for the next 24 months or more I can get back into _*IIIPA's*_ etc

:chug:


----------



## Whiteferret (24/8/15)

Come on tell us the process. Reading above I sort of lost it with all thirstys numbers. Maybe Idzy needs some input into this.


Mardoo?


dammit no ninja on mobile


----------



## Yob (24/8/15)

Too much numberin, not enough thumberin


----------



## Adr_0 (24/8/15)

At this point the line between whisky and beer becomes a little blurry...


----------



## Yob (24/8/15)

Does when you put it in a barrel


----------

