# Rims Vs Herms



## Crusty (3/8/10)

Hi guys,
Seems most electric brewers on here are using herms as opposed to a rims setup. I have been researching both systems pretty hard & each has their own plus & minus. I read a lot that caramalisation in a poorly designed rims can be a major problem. I also hear a great deal about herms systems needing a 2400watt element in a seperate vessel to quickly ramp up temp for the mash if targets are short. I noted that beerbelly sells his herms system without a seperate vessel for the herms & has the coil in the HLT. Surely a 3600watt element in a 50lt HLT keggle would ramp up quickly enough & keep temps at required levels for the mash & mashout. 
Anyone here using a rims care to describe their system & how it compares to a herms.

Crusty


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## kevin_smevin (3/8/10)

Obviously smaller vessels will ramp temps better. I think you could probably go too small though and ramp too quickly, creating temperature gradients in your mash tun. I'm still in the planning stage of my HERMS so this is all theoretical at the moment. I'm planning to use a 10L urn which is quick enough i think.


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## Crusty (3/8/10)

yum yum yum said:


> Obviously smaller vessels will ramp temps better. I think you could probably go too small though and ramp too quickly, creating temperature gradients in your mash tun. I'm still in the planning stage of my HERMS so this is all theoretical at the moment. I'm planning to use a 10L urn which is quick enough i think.



Thanks yum,
I hear a bit of herms users complaining that smaller vessels loose temps too quickly & a few people swear by larger 15-20lt vessels for their herms. I believe the larger vessel like the HLT, although taking longer to reach temp, can manage & keep temps more stable because of the larger voulumes of water.


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## fraser_john (3/8/10)

There probably is an optimum balance between mash water and HERMS exchange size. But if using a PID to control, it is almost irrelevant. A smaller volume will lose heat quicker, but it will also ramp faster and if well insulated should not be of too much a concern. 

My HERMS is around 10 liters (guess) in size and ramps 15c in 7 minutes for a 27 liter dough in water volume, it is poorly insulated too, so could probably achieve faster ramp rates if I insulated the HERMS container. I do not worry about gradients in the mash as the circulating wort eliminates them quickly.

I'd be concerned about using a HLT as the basis for a HERMS as the final step, mash out, requires the wort achieve 76c. In order to do this, the HLT liquor will run higher than 76c, making it unusable as sparge water. That said, there are people that do it.


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## AndrewQLD (3/8/10)

Have you had a look at this thread , it's a fairly in depth discussion dedicated to the HERMS system.
For what it's worth my opinion is a smaller herms vessel means a faster ramp time however the speed of your recirculation plays a big part as well, the faster you can recirc without compacting the grain bed means the faster your ramp time, it's a balancing act.

Andrew


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## Crusty (3/8/10)

fraser_john said:


> I'd be concerned about using a HLT as the basis for a HERMS as the final step, mash out, requires the wort achieve 76c. In order to do this, the HLT liquor will run higher than 76c, making it unusable as sparge water. That said, there are people that do it.



Been watching a few of your vids on youtube, nice setup.
I don't do a mashout as such anymore & basically do a single infusion batch sparge.
I collect the first runnings after the 60min rest & batch sparge twice using equal amounts of sparge water. My efficeency is around the 82-84% mark but am working on making that a little better. Not too many people on here using rims it seems.


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## Crusty (3/8/10)

AndrewQLD said:


> Have you had a look at this thread , it's a fairly in depth discussion dedicated to the HERMS system.
> For what it's worth my opinion is a smaller herms vessel means a faster ramp time however the speed of your recirculation plays a big part as well, the faster you can recirc without compacting the grain bed means the faster your ramp time, it's a balancing act.
> 
> Andrew



Had a good look through there, thanks Andrew.


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## Trent (3/8/10)

I use a RIMS, and I am fairly happy with it, but it is reasonably new (about 6 batches in) and I have to look at getting a PID controller to stop it overshooting the mark - the only problem I have come across. Its a 2400w element set under my false bottom. Seems to rise a degree a minute fairly easily with no scorching that I can detect. Mind you, I dont know alot about it, I relied on a very knowledgable HBS owner to sort it out for me! But it works, and works well.
Trent


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## Siborg (3/8/10)

Slightly off topic, but I have enough vessels (I think) to start work on a HERMS or RIMS system. Anyone know of any decent links/guides to building one or the other?


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## raven19 (3/8/10)

Crusty said:


> Anyone here using a rims care to describe their system & how it compares to a herms.



Only 1 small batch into my RIMS brewing, the PID controller is a must have with a RIMS setup to avoid overshooting your temps.

No issues with scorching either (as yet!).



fraser_john said:


> There probably is an optimum balance between mash water and HERMS exchange size. But if using a PID to control, it is almost irrelevant. A smaller volume will lose heat quicker, but it will also ramp faster and if well insulated should not be of too much a concern.



+1 , FJ knows his stuff!



Siborg said:


> Slightly off topic, but I have enough vessels (I think) to start work on a HERMS or RIMS system. Anyone know of any decent links/guides to building one or the other?



My RIMS build along with a few other RIMS build threads are in my signature linky below.


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## Crusty (3/8/10)

This dude has a pretty good breakdown of the rims element setup.



I contacted stokes appliance parts & thay suggested this in relation to the video,
low density to avoid scorching, 2" BSP triple element 4500watt 997mm long, product 2624. Bloody huge.

Do you think a 2400watt low density would be ok. 523mm long.


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## raven19 (3/8/10)

Crusty said:


> Do you think a 2400watt low density would be ok. 523mm long.



Cant access utube at work, but I would say yes it should be ok - if used with a PID.

Make sure you can pull the RIMS apart for cleaning (just incase or scorching!)


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## Thirsty Boy (3/8/10)

For me its about why you want a re-circulating system in the first place.

If what you want is to set your temp, walk away, know its going to be steady for the whole mash and then maybe flick it up to a mashout before you sparge. Then I think that Coil in HLT systems are the best bet. Measure the temp in the HLT, know the difference between it and your mash tun once its stabilized, set point controller does the trick nicely. Beautiful.

And at the other end of the scale is a RIMS - less inherently stable, but the most responsive. Steep ramps for total mash temp and almost instant change of temp for the recirculated wort itself. But you need a PID to run one sensibly or they are all over the shop. For me, they give me the response I want for different step mash regimes. I want zero overshoot & steep ramps and a RIMS gives me that better than I was ever able to get with different HERMS variations. Looking to emulate infusion and decoction "steps" as closely as possible with a re-circulating system.

Smaller separate vessel HERMS systems walk all along the line in between the two, with heat-ex size, heat-ex vessel size and temp probe placement all affecting how the system performs and what it does best.

There is also the Brutus 10 option to consider which is probably closer to a RIMS than a HERMS in concept.

In all but the systems that require the least "responsiveness" ie ones that are almost exclusively about maintaining a steady single temperature - flow rates are critical - with faster generally equalling better control. Not _necessarily_ better ramp rates, but better ability for your temp controller to stay on top of its job. So don't skimp on your false bottom and pay a little attention to mash tun design so you can avoid bed compaction.

Also, do not skimp on quick disconnects... you have a lot of pumps, pipes, hoses, taps etc going on in a re-circulating system, leaks are an absolute pain in the arse that you want to avoid. Buy good ones, they are expensive, but worth every penny if you've been through the pain of brew days that start with 40mins of tracking down and fixing multiple leaky fittings before you even get to mash in.

As raven said... Rims units need to come apart easily, you have to be able to easily clean the element as it gets a light layer of build up every brew and you need to know you haven't got anything that might cause a partial blockage and hold anything solid directly on the element.

Cheers

Thirsty

PS - you dont need a stinking great ton of energy in your rims element, its all going directly into the wort with no exchangers, water etc in between, so you get more bang for every joule - 2400W will give you good ramp for even double batch. I get more than acceptable response from my system on a double batch and my element is probably only about 2000W (cheap coles kettle element)


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## Crusty (3/8/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> For me its about why you want a re-circulating system in the first place.
> 
> If what you want is to set your temp, walk away, know its going to be steady for the whole mash and then maybe flick it up to a mashout before you sparge. Then I think that Coil in HLT systems are the best bet. Measure the temp in the HLT, know the difference between it and your mash tun once its stabilized, set point controller does the trick nicely. Beautiful.
> 
> ...



Thanks Thirsty,
Some valid points you have raised there. Like yourself, I am aiming for zero overshoot & the flexability to do step mashes in the future & I am looking at the Rims specifically for that reason. I have spoken to quite a few herms brewers & each person has their own issues with how they have set the herms up. I'm not saying in any way a herms is not capable of any brews that I am looking at doing in the future, but the Rims is the better option for me. I have sent auberins an email & am looking at this PID,

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...p;products_id=4

This probe,

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...;products_id=96


& 25A SSR & 25A Heatsink if I go for the 2400watt element. If going to a larger element, I will go the 40A.


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## crozdog (3/8/10)

TB, once again a great post which prompts thought about "why" as much as "how". big ups!! :beer: 

sorry for the off topic post - just noticed lately TB is putting out some (longish but  ) well thought out informative posts, & that should be noted.


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## raven19 (3/8/10)

The auberins units work really nicely from all reports I have read.

cdbrown has a nice little build log also at the moment that is worth checking out re Auberins goodies. :icon_cheers: 

(Another top TB post above indeed).


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## MeLoveBeer (4/8/10)

On fire TB...

I'd love to see a cost comparison between the two systems (not that cost would be the determining factor for me, but its important all the same). For a while now I've just taken it for granted that HERMS is easiest to get up and running and has the lowest risk on brewday, but increased responsiveness would be a powerful motivator for me.

Can people post a list of typically required parts to implement a Rims and Herms in a gravity fed 3v system?


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## mxd (4/8/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> Can people post a list of typically required parts to implement a Rims and Herms in a gravity fed 3v system?



Many ways to skin a cat 

For me (build in progress)

My HERMS

March Pump (I am single Tier so am using the one Pump for all)
Silicon Hose
Connectors
URN/Pot (I have a 10 ltr urn that was more a keep warm rather than heat up type)
Some Heating Ability for Pot or Urn (I am using an immersion heater)
Temperature Controller (e.g. PID)
Copper Coil.
Exit and Entry nipples in MLT
Some sort of Wort disperser in MLT (not too sure if is required for all situations)
Thermowell into MLT (wort entry)

probably more that I have forgotten or just don't know at this point of time


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## MeLoveBeer (4/8/10)

Thanks Matt. Looking forward to seeing your finished build (should be good)


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## [email protected] (4/8/10)

Crusty,

Have a look at the link below.
http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/

I did my first home brew in one of these at Marks Home Brew in Newcastle and can highly recommend it. Particularly if you are starting out in all grain.

If the end result you want is enjoyable beer, then these compact units work very well.

I made a similar unit, revising it about 4 or 5 times so far, realising there is a lot of subtle design genius in the apparently simple BRAU unit and am still working on my version. Do yourself a favor and buy one off Mark unless you are consumed with doing everything yourself like me.

I found it hard to pick the benefits between HERMS and RIMS but my understanding so far is.

RIMS puts heat directly into wort, if watt/area density of element is poorly managed either by PID controller or element selection, then scorching of wort (caramelisation and enzyme damage) results. Supposedly makes clearer wort.

HERM, uses a liquid to buffer the heat transfer (heat exchanger) , mostly only heard about the good but I don't like all the equipment, save some of the magnificent brew sculptures I have seen on AHB. It just seems to bulky for me so it is really a matter of personal choice, at least in my case.

I would use a valve radio and transistor radio analogy. My choice is to persevere with the smaller footprint and enjoy solving design issues.

Having put my view, I should temper it with acknowledging I probably have another 503 brews to go before I really understand what the hell I am doing anyway.

I am consistently making the beer that I want, that my friends enjoy and it gives me great pleasure, so I am happy with my choice. And lets not forget, there are brewers out ther having a great time with single step, minimash or mashing in and esky using a kettle.



Just remember to enjoy the journey.

Cheers 

TeeDee


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## Crusty (5/8/10)

Thanks TD,
I can see where a poorly designed Rims setup can render the wort useless if scorching occurs & the older versions of rims designs may or may not of been using the correct elements. The particular element I am looking at is a very low density, 20W/in2, be it a 2400watt, 3600watt or 4500watt incology sheath triple element. This element will have a user set temperature cutout that will power off if I get a stuck sparge & no water going through the heatstick. Wort caramelisation is not really a concern at this point due to measures undertaken to minimise the risk.
Herms is not out of the question either & I may still go this way. 

Crusty


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## [email protected] (5/8/10)

Crusty said:


> Thanks TD,
> I can see where a poorly designed Rims setup can render the wort useless if scorching occurs & the older versions of rims designs may or may not of been using the correct elements. The particular element I am looking at is a very low density, 20W/in2, be it a 2400watt, 3600watt or 4500watt incology sheath triple element. This element will have a user set temperature cutout that will power off if I get a stuck sparge & no water going through the heatstick. Wort caramelisation is not really a concern at this point due to measures undertaken to minimise the risk.
> Herms is not out of the question either & I may still go this way.
> 
> Crusty



Crusty,



You are on the right track sourcing low density element. I got my element from Stokes in Melbourne via a local supplier as they wouldn't sell direct.

It was about 8mm round and 3 meters long at 2500 watts. I can't remember the density but we can do the math. It was as low as I could find at the time and cost about $140. The element could be shaped so I coiled it around the malt pipe.

I was hoping to use a PID controller but haven't got that far yet. V2 will have more bells and whistles but after getting my fingernails dirty again today I wouldn't rule out a version 3.

If you have a closer look at the Braumeister the element is always submerged so no chance of a burn out. Are we confusing RIMS and HERMS? I haven't had a stuck sparge in my system, some damn belligerent ones but none stuck. Even if circulation ceased, the bulk of the mash is submerged in the wort. Worst case scenario is slow malt pipe (poor circulation) which has an impact on mash but not fatal.

Getting the milling right is as much an issue as anything. V2 will have a wider more squat malt pipe which should improve circulation.

When I set mine, I let it get heat soaked at mash strike temp, then turn the temp controller down and put the lid on. The element only comes on a few times depending on the duration of the mash as I have insulated the outer vessel. Even with a low density element, I am still not happy.

Depending on the brew, I get slight build up on element and I am pretty sure I am causing issues to enzymes. Local heat right on the element will be much higher than wort average no matter what the density of the element. I have found this suits some beers anyway.

Keep in touch, let me know how you go.



Regards

TeeDee


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## Crusty (5/8/10)

ThomasD said:


> Crusty,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have you got the element in the mashtun under the false bottom? Direct heating the mash?
I have had a couple of stuck sparges in the past trying to be a bit too cocky with the crush to get my efficiency up from the 70% mark. I was doing single infusion, mash out & batch sparge. I now split the batch sparge up into two equal volumes. I collect first runnings after 60min sacc rest & then do the double batch sparge. The last APA 23lt batch I did according to BTP, my efficiency was 84.2%, a nice & welcome improvement. With the new system, be it Rims or Herms, I hope to get efficiency in the high 80's.
I am going to get this PID,


http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...p;products_id=4

Depending on heating element, 25A SSR, 25A Heat sink & PT100 probe. I'll upgrade this to 40A if I use anything above 2400watt.
Slowly piecing it all together & getting all BSP sockets welded onto the vessels this weekend. Grabbing a Hopscreen off beerBelly & 3 pickup tubes too. I am only renting here & trying to avoid the need to tinker with the electricity in case we move later. For now I will gas fire the HLT, digital temp monitoring, Rims or Herms electric & gas fire kettle. Well thats the plan anyhow.

Crusty


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## [email protected] (5/8/10)

Crusty said:


> Have you got the element in the mashtun under the false bottom? Direct heating the mash?
> I have had a couple of stuck sparges in the past trying to be a bit too cocky with the crush to get my efficiency up from the 70% mark. I was doing single infusion, mash out & batch sparge. I now split the batch sparge up into two equal volumes. I collect first runnings after 60min sacc rest & then do the double batch sparge. The last APA 23lt batch I did according to BTP, my efficiency was 84.2%, a nice & welcome improvement. With the new system, be it Rims or Herms, I hope to get efficiency in the high 80's.
> I am going to get this PID,
> 
> ...



No the element is in the wort beside the malt pipe.

See pic. Proper RIMS

I get between 75% & 80% out of mine.

When I sparge/rinse I simply lift out the malt pipe, I pour water over the grain in the malt pipe to displace the wort in the malt pipe. 4.5 kilos of grain holds about 4.5 liters of wort which I collect at the bottom of the pipe held over a collection bowl.

The PID you have selected look more than functional enough. 

 In my V1.5 version I simply use a MashMaster. It's hard to justify much more in this versions, the end result is I make beer, I drink beer, I smile, I fall down. Mission complete.

It is tricky to pick out electrical components, exaggerated performance and lots of misleading info. I use the very unscientific method of double what you thing will work for power ratings.

I have started to think about weld less fittings. It's bloody hard work and expensive to TIG everything and I have done so far.

My setup runs on a 15 amp socket. It does suck the power; I need to replace the end of leads already as they get pretty hot when boiling.

I have retained the 3600watt element for boiling, it real time saver.

At the risk as drawing criticism from some of the pedants and cynics lurking in the shadows I will stick a couple of pics of my V1prototype setup in this reply. I am pretty sure we are talking about different setups.

Tee Dee


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## Crusty (5/8/10)

Setup looks sweet TD.
I haven't seen anything like that before.

Crusty


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## [email protected] (5/8/10)

Crusty said:


> Setup looks sweet TD.
> I haven't seen anything like that before.
> 
> Crusty




Crusty,
thanks, all in one kettle, cleans easy, makes good beer, fun making it, still get to play with improving design.  S U W E E E T D U D E.  
Have a close look at the Braumeister site. Its a great setup. If you live close to Newcastle you can see one at Marks Home Brew.
My next setup will be a hybrid HERMS RIMS system, still in one vessel though.
I might go a little more exotic with control this time but the good old MashMaster is hard to beat.

Regards
TeeDee


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