# Attempting The 1000 Ibu Benchmark



## unco_tomato (21/8/12)

Hey Guys,

I'm looking for some more experience IPA experts to weigh in and help me out here, as the brewing software I use (Beer Smith) will likely get a bit confused when it comes to hop absorption in the boiling phase of this monolithic brew.

OK, so I've essentially got a basic IPA recipe I use regularly, and that is working with my usual 60-63% efficiency using BIAB. It goes something like the following:

(23L Batch)
38L Water (Calcium Sulphate and Yeast Nutrient added)
6.5KG Marris Otter
0.5KG Caramunich II
0.5KG Dextrose (added after 5 days of primary)
150G Cascade - 10 Mins
150G Galaxy 10 Mins
100G Amarillo 10 Mins


From that recipe (my typical hop burst IPA with simple body and fruity flavours) I usually end up with around 8% alcohol and 110 IBU. Do you think this grain bill will be enough to carry the 1000 IBU beer I've got planned? Or should I work on getting a "double-mash" and ditch the sugar? or perhaps keep the grain bill the same, but add more sugar later on in the fermentation?

Also, has any one here brewed anything close to 1000IBU before? With my typical IPA recipe (above) using the "bursting" method I end up with nearly a kilo of hop slurry at the end of boil. I think the hop slurry in this 1000 IBU beer I've got planned (will require over 4KG of hops) could end up weighing around 10KG, if not more. At the moment I've got the plan of using a grain bag inside a 35L Fermenter, transferring my wort to the fermenter as normal, then removing the bag and as much of the slurry as possible along with it. Do you think this could work?

Obviously the other problem is the amount of water lost to the slurry. How do I account for this? Does anyone have hop absorption calculations that are accurate at this quantity?

At this point I'm comprehending just starting the batch with an extra 5L of water and hop(p)ing for the best, though I'd kind of like the beer to be successful, and not just some freak experiment (if that is even possible).

Anyway, I will take and appreciate any guidance or advice you have to offer.

P.s. Almost forgot, does having a wort this high in alpha acids affect yeast health? I assumed it would, but it's hard to say how it will turn out if I ensure yeast are as healthy as possible before pitching.


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## GalBrew (21/8/12)

Well, 1000 is a lot of BUs. You may well have to use some sort of hop extract, in conjunction with your hops to be able to brew this beer. Perhaps you could also use the french press method to make your own hop extract and add that to the brew. You will end up with less beer lost to sludge that way.


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## unco_tomato (21/8/12)

Hmmm, I think that is some good advice there Adam, will definitely take that on board.


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## MaestroMatt (21/8/12)

I seem to remember reading some scholarly information that suggests perceived bitterness has a ceiling at a certain IBU limit (certainly well below 1000IBU). After that, they suggest flavor and aroma are the only real benefits for continuing to hop to that level. I'll see if I can find the article.

I certainly don't have experience brewing to 1000IBU (if such a thing is even possible), but I would think you would need a MUCH more robust beer than what your 8% beer can supply. You are going to need a very solid malt backbone to support that level of hopping. I would be heading to the (Imperial?) Barley wine side of recipe formulation to be on the right track.

I personally wouldn't waste the hops but good luck to you!


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## Where's Jim? (21/8/12)

MaestroMatt said:


> I seem to remember reading some scholarly information that suggests perceived bitterness has a ceiling at a certain IBU limit (certainly well below 1000IBU). After that, they suggest flavor and aroma are the only real benefits for continuing to hop to that level. I'll see if I can find the article.
> 
> I certainly don't have experience brewing to 1000IBU (if such a thing is even possible), but I would think you would need a MUCH more robust beer than what your 8% beer can supply. You are going to need a very solid malt backbone to support that level of hopping. I would be heading to the (Imperial?) Barley wine side of recipe formulation to be on the right track.
> 
> I personally wouldn't waste the hops but good luck to you!




I also recall reading something of the sort. I think I remember reading that the threshold of the human tongue tops out at around 120IBU. I'd love to read the article you have in mind if you can find it. 

I would also imagine that the solubility of iso-alpha-acids tops out at some point well below 1000IBU as well - similar concept to how you can only dissolve so much sugar in so much water.

Interesting never the less. Good luck :icon_cheers:

EDIT: in regards to the yeast health - I imagine yeast would be affected negatively also as their cell walls are coated by hop acids/oils (not sure on the specifics) making it harder for them to reproduce and perhaps take in goodies. If I'm not mistaken, hops act as a preservative by coating the walls of bacteria that may be present, unfortunately yeast is also a victim to that process.

Best wait for someone with more knowledge to chime in though!


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## unco_tomato (21/8/12)

Thanks Maestro, I was thinking I may need to double my grain bill also, but wasn't sure as I've never even come close to attempting a 4-5KG hopped brew.

I think I'll double up on the Marris Otter, add around 100g of wheat, 2-3KG of Pilsner Malt and keep the Caramunich the same. Unfortunately at work right now so can't fiddle with the exact numbers, but I guess I'd be aiming for 14% or so? In that case I may actually have to age this beer for quite some time too in order to let any harshness mellow. Perhaps turn it into a Barley Wine recipe instead of an IPA?

@ Jim,

I think I remember reading about the solubility of iso-alpha-acids in an old issue of BYO. From memory you're right, and I think perhaps an interview with Mikkeller revealed the same thing, with them saying their 1000IBU beer isn't actually that high, it's just what the software said it should hit. Either way, ever since trying their 1000 IBU last year I've wanted to give it a try myself.


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## manticle (21/8/12)

I believe both taste/palate perception and actual solubility of Isomerised alpha into wort will limit you to way under 1000: maybe under 100 from memory.

However hops contribute more than bitterness (and bitterness comes from compounds other than isomerised alpha) so your super IIIIIIIIIIPA may still have some discernible difference to an ordinary IIIIIPA.

Up to you whether you think that will be a good difference.


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## GalBrew (21/8/12)

Also, Mikkeller has a 1000 IBU beer. Maybe you should check it out.


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## unco_tomato (21/8/12)

@Manticle,

But isn't the ability to taste any difference in a 100 IBU beer and a 40 IBU beer dependent on the hops used? A 100IBU Beer made with Saaz would taste milder than a 40IBU Beer made with Magnum I would have thought. So surely dependent on the hop variety used, you can actually taste differences in hops used above and below 100IBU?

I understand your point though Maniticle, which I think is "why bother going above 100IBU with your chosen hop variety as you likely won't taste a difference, and if you do it won't be worth the $200+ of extra hops added". If that is your point, I guess I'm just doing it because I want to  and ever since trying the Mikkeller 1KIBU I've wanted to make my own.

Anyway, the point of this thread was to try to get as close to the 1K IBU mark as possible, so I'll keep it updated with my progress as I read more into it, and eventually come brew day, expect some photos.


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## Muscovy_333 (21/8/12)

Horses for courses.
Do you plan on consuming it or is it just for shits 'n giggles because you can?

You may need extracted hop oils to get up that high. 
Is it possible that the hop oils would seperate from your aqeous phase. I.e oil and water?


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## Whiteferret (21/8/12)

unco_tomato said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I'm looking for some more experience IPA experts to weigh in and help me out here, as the brewing software I use (Beer Smith) will likely get a bit confused when it comes to hop absorption in the boiling phase of this monolithic brew.
> 
> ...




The longer the boil the more IBUs dont put all of it in at 10 min put some in at 60 min to get it up higher even though said threshhold might be reached first.


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## unco_tomato (21/8/12)

Muscovy said:


> Horses for courses.
> Do you plan on consuming it or is it just for shits 'n giggles because you can?
> 
> You may need extracted hop oils to get up that high.
> Is it possible that the hop oils would seperate from your aqeous phase. I.e oil and water?



I plan on drinking it (assuming of course it is palatable).

I'm not sure if the oils will separate from the water, surely it would just be that oil eventually ceases to be extracted from the hops as they reach a near-equilibrium? Not sure though as I've not read too much about it (hence why I'm on here).

If I was to use extracts, I'd imagine there could be residual oil that may became insoluble, not sure though.


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## Dazza88 (21/8/12)

brew a beer of 110 ibu with bittering additons only. continue to boil your 110 ibu beer to a ninth of its original volume. and add a shite load of flame out hops.

a 1000ish ibu beer. maybe.


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## MHB (21/8/12)

Just for fun, lets look at what you proposed putting in your brew
Use all the hops and get maximum utilisation, lets be generous and say you get 30% utilisation (AA of the hops into the beer) and say the average AA of your hops was 10%
400g of hops @ 10% = 40g of Alpha Acid, utilisation of 30% = 12g or 12,000mg dissolve that in 23 Litres of beer and you have 521.7 mg/L
So even if you did both the impossible and the improbable in the same brew you would be just over half way to your target.

There is a limit to the solubility of Iso Alpha Acid, its about 100 IBU (depending on how its measured) really its just a whisker over 90mg/L
The IBU is by definition a measure of the Iso-Alpha Acid in solution in the finished beer, measured by a well tested method as described in the EBC Analitica, anyone claiming to make beer over 100 IBU is lying (or grossly ignorant, or working for an ad agency...)
I have no doubt the beer will be monstrously hoppy, make you a deal, brew the beer, send me a sample and I will have the bitterness measured and will post the result, I got $50 says you wont crack 90 IBU.
Not trying to be a grump, just sick of the neck deep bullshit being talked about IBUs and a really big fan of reality based thinking.
Mark


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## Tony (21/8/12)

Agreed.

I have played with making beers up around the 300+ IBU (theoretical) mark with about 600g of hops in a small 20 something liter batch, and its no hoppier or bitter than a beer made to 80 or 90 IBU and using realistic, less expensive amounts of hops.

It has been proven there is a limit to the bitterness a human can perceive, and a limit to the amount of bitterness than can be dissolved into a beer, and i really do believe that there is a limit to the amount of flavor and aroma compounds that can be put in a beer too.

Im all for pushing the envelope and trying new things, but 1000 IBU???

Its like me saying i think i will go drive my diesel 4WD at 1000 km/hr today........... i can try......... but i will be disappointed.


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## manticle (21/8/12)

unco_tomato said:


> @Manticle,
> 
> But isn't the ability to taste any difference in a 100 IBU beer and a 40 IBU beer dependent on the hops used? A 100IBU Beer made with Saaz would taste milder than a 40IBU Beer made with Magnum I would have thought. So surely dependent on the hop variety used, you can actually taste differences in hops used above and below 100IBU?
> 
> ...



My point isn't why bother at all.

My 1st point is along the lines of part of what MHB said above - IBU is a measurement of isomerised alpha acid in solution and there is a finite limit which is well under 1000. Secondary to that is taste threshold of bitterness which also supposedly has a finite limit - this is what may lead to the question 'why bother' IF (and only if) IBU based bitterness is all hops provide.

However: 

My second point is that while the above may be true, there are other compounds in hops that influence beer flavour so even if you don't/can't hit 1000, you may still get a different beer to one that uses less hops that still hits either the theoretical or the measured limits.

The third point is that only you can tell whether that difference is worth it. The concept to me is up there with someone suggesting making an 1.120 OG beer with only 10 IBU. I like beers with harmony - they can be malt forward, hop forward or yeast/ester driven but everything works together. Your suggestion is like getting 7 million super hot chillis to make a curry and seeing if you have enough potato to make it work. I love chilli but I wouldn't in my wildest dreams believe that I can make a good dish by doing that.

It may work for extreme hop lovers and you are presumably one - people who will happily drink hop juice and not worry if anything else exists to complemet. Being your beer, it doesn't matter what my take on the concept is though.

In summary - you won't/can't get 1000 actual IBUs in any beer, you can stick 4kg of hops in it and it may be different from 2kg, 1 kg, 500g or 80 g and only you can tell if it's a good move or not.


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## kevo (21/8/12)

Righto - excuse my ignorance - never used them - do hop extracts need to be boiled or can they simply be added to a wort or fermented beer?

Would it be possible to add the hop extract post-fermentation to avoid issues with yeast health, but bump up the IBUs?

Just a thought...

Everything I've read/heard says a 1000 IBU shouldn't be possible (and probably not terribly enjoyable) but would be cool to see if it -or something similar- can be achieved.

Kev


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## manticle (21/8/12)

Depends if it's iso hop extract (eg just bittering) or flavour hop extract.

Not sure about tetra-hop extract - I vaguely recall that's similar to iso but UV resistant/skunk proof.

Pretty sure there will still be a limit as it's about one compound/chemical in solution and there's only so much you can put in. Imagine dissolving salt in water - eventually you put so much in that no more can dissolve.


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## mxd (21/8/12)

Tony said:


> Its like me saying i think i will go drive my diesel 4WD at 1000 km/hr today........... i can try......... but i will be disappointed.



terminal velocity will assist, wheres there's a will there's a way


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## Charst (21/8/12)

AdamFromWH said:


> Also, Mikkeller has a 1000 IBU beer. Maybe you should check it out.



I had this in a tasting paddle at the localTap house. Couldn't finish it. First beer I couldn't finish. Like Hop porridge, not Drinkable at all. Good luck if you want to make it though it's your beer. There is a hop bursting episode of basic brewing that may help.


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## tricache (21/8/12)

Tasted the Mikkeller 1000IBU beer in WA at the Sail & Anchor and the thing tasted like I had been hit in the face :lol:

It's obviously achievable but you would have to see if you can research their recipe and method.


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## Batz (21/8/12)

Go for it!

Sounds like you need to do this, and I'm waiting for your results...............if you live though it. :lol: :lol: 





batz


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## Golani51 (21/8/12)

Mikkeller 1000IBU was brilliant. I shared one with Warmbeer and regret not having more. Huge puckerability factor for a couple hours after.

Just one thing.....order the hops from the US...Niko or Yakima.....save you a fortune on the hops


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## GalBrew (21/8/12)

Charst said:


> Like Hop porridge, not Drinkable at all.



Pretty much, like the fermented steepings from my lawn mower.


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## Jay Cee (22/8/12)

A thread I stumbled across a week ago was from one of the site's operator's who brewed a beer with 2.5kg of hops and a theoretical IBU of 500IBU. It was stated there also that 100IBU is the reality. Have a dig around for it, it was by the member "Doc". 

From what I have read, I agree that you'll tap out at 100IBU. You should take MHB's offer up of running tests, for the benefit of the whole board. It will only cost you postage.


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## joshuahardie (22/8/12)

That Mikkeller 1000ibu beer gave me stomach cramps. and for all the hooplah, didn't seem any more bitter than the 200ibu or 100ibu beers that I have made.

Truth be told Id rather have a 50ibu beer with a shit ton of late hops. eg sort of like Murrays Sparticus. Which more or less tasted hoppier than the Mikeller

YMMV


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## unco_tomato (22/8/12)

Golani51 said:


> Mikkeller 1000IBU was brilliant. I shared one with Warmbeer and regret not having more. Huge puckerability factor for a couple hours after.
> 
> Just one thing.....order the hops from the US...Niko or Yakima.....save you a fortune on the hops



Finally, someone that understands why this has to happen!

I think oils and a very long boil time will be the go.

Thanks for the tips on Niko and Yakima, I've been trying to find a good retailer for a while.




Jay Cee said:


> A thread I stumbled across a week ago was from one of the site's operator's who brewed a beer with 2.5kg of hops and a theoretical IBU of 500IBU. It was stated there also that 100IBU is the reality. Have a dig around for it, it was by the member "Doc".
> 
> From what I have read, I agree that you'll tap out at 100IBU. You should take MHB's offer up of running tests, for the benefit of the whole board. It will only cost you postage.



I'll certainly post some off to him when it's done.


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## sponge (22/8/12)

unco_tomato said:


> Thanks for the tips on Niko and Yakima, I've been trying to find a good retailer for a while.



Hops direct are another company who do real cheap hops if needed.

Plenty of options depending upon your needs, sir.


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## gravey (22/8/12)

Kieren brewed something along these lines for our last case swap, here's a pic:






looks fantastic doesnt it? :icon_vomit: 

It was a challenge to get through and I only had 1/2 a pint. It was certainly an interesting experiment and I'm glad he brewed it and I got to try it.....it taught me that I'd never be interested in brewing such a beer.

As others have suggested, it certainly didnt taste anywhere near 25x the bitterness of a 40IBU beer, but there were other 'interesting' flavours, though my memory is a little hazy from that night. Very oily as well and obviously very thick


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## pcmfisher (22/8/12)

@unco_tomato, how's you normal beers, drinkable?. 
The one you are thinking about won't be. 
Whats the point?


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## WarmBeer (22/8/12)

How to simulate a 1000 IBU beer:

1) Buy/brew a nice, strong IIPA, or similar
2) Put 1/4 cup of said beer in a glass
3) Add 1/4 cup of high %AA hop pellets
4) Mix ingredients well
5) Drink, and attempt to keep contents in your mouth as long as possible 

I've had the Mikkeller 1000 IBU beer, and while it was (very) bitter, it was nowhere near 20x as bitter as a nominal 50 IBU IPA.

If you've got plenty of money to waste on an excessive hop bill, and a mindset that just says "yeah, f^%k it, why not?", then go for it.

For the sake of 5 hours brew time, plus tying up a fermenter for 2+ weeks, I'd brew a "low hopped" IIPA to around the 80 IBU mark. It's still going to be more bitter than my ex's opinion of me.


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## unco_tomato (22/8/12)

Haha, thanks for the encouraging words guys 

I'm not doing it in an attempt to create a new beer style, I'm doing it to see how different it is to anything else I've made. (and yes WarmBeer, I've live hopped before, and even put hop cones (never pellets) directly into my glass).

I don't veiw tying up a fermenter for two weeks as a real problem, I've got 4 fermenters at the moment, so it's no huge trouble. The wasted hops is the only real reason not to do it, but I'll work around with the recipe a little and probably ditch a lot of my late additions as they will be dominated by the early regardless.

Anyway, I've never used oils either, so it will be a fun experiment.

EDIT: Also Gravey, what is that black chunk in the beer? Haha. It looks like he's just given you a glass full of trub.


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## MHB (22/8/12)

Im thinking you have rather missed the point as you cant get over 100IBU the early additions are the ones that are mostly wasted.
Make your additions late and you will get the most Hop Characters other than bitterness, I strongly suspect that with something like 400g of hops at 10 minutes you will get all the bitterness you are going to get automatically.
You might need a wine press to separate the hops from the beer, but lots of late additions will be very in ya face.
Mark


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## Rurik (22/8/12)

MHB said:


> Not trying to be a grump, just sick of the neck deep bullshit being talked about IBUs and a really big fan of reality based thinking.
> Mark




Thanks Mark now I have to clean the coffee off my keyboard. This has just become my signature.


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## unco_tomato (22/8/12)

MHB said:


> Im thinking you have rather missed the point as you cant get over 100IBU the early additions are the ones that are mostly wasted.
> Make your additions late and you will get the most Hop Characters other than bitterness, I strongly suspect that with something like 400g of hops at 10 minutes you will get all the bitterness you are going to get automatically.
> You might need a wine press to separate the hops from the beer, but lots of late additions will be very in ya face.
> Mark



But that's how I make my Hop Burst IPA anyway... I want to try something different.


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## tricache (22/8/12)

unco_tomato said:


> But that's how I make my Hop Burst IPA anyway... I want to try something different.



And trying something different is what makes better brewers...I say go for it!! Not everyone's cup of beer (?) but its the same reason why people customise cars, not everyone is going to like an over the top airbrushes, neons ect you put on your excel but if you like it and want to try it then go for gold :lol:


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## Dave70 (22/8/12)

Grab yourself some of this and get busy if you want bitterness that will pucker your face inside out.
Than some saaz for flavour would be my choice..


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## Muscovy_333 (22/8/12)

tricache said:


> And trying something different is what makes better brewers...I say go for it!! Not everyone's cup of beer (?) but its the same reason why people customise cars, not everyone is going to like an over the top airbrushes, neons ect you put on your excel but if you like it and want to try it then go for gold :lol:



I don't like spoilers


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## tricache (22/8/12)

Muscovy said:


> I don't like spoilers



The butler did it....


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## Jay Cee (22/8/12)

tricache said:


> And trying something different is what makes better brewers...I say go for it!!



Yes, go for it. Don't worry about those knocking you. Your beers, your brewery, your terms ! 

Just don't claim you'll be doing a 1000 IBU beer :lol:


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## WarmBeer (22/8/12)

Muscovy said:


> I don't like spoilers


Beaten by Tricache, but had to respond.

> Vader is really Luke's father.


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## Helles (22/8/12)

unco_tomato said:


> But that's how I make my Hop Burst IPA anyway... I want to try something different.




You want to try something different 
Send me 4 kg of hops 
And ill send you a beer to tip down the sink


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## gravey (22/8/12)

unco_tomato said:


> EDIT: Also Gravey, what is that black chunk in the beer? Haha. It looks like he's just given you a glass full of trub.




pretty sure its just some writing on the outside of the glass.

I think Kieren pretty much used lots of late editions...not sure on exact quantities. PM him if you like, I'm sure he'll give you more details.


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## felten (22/8/12)

I saw a blog post that said the Mikkeller 1000 IBU contains 6.5 kilogram of alpha-acid extract and 10 kilograms of simcoe-pellets per 1000 liters of beer. Maybe a good place to start.


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## Barley Belly (22/8/12)

Why stop at 1000 IBU?

Why not 1,000,000 IBU?

Just sayin


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## QldKev (22/8/12)

Just wack some denatonium benzoate in there, all is done

QldKev


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## Nick JD (22/8/12)

And dry hop with 1kg of Szechuan Pepper to get that "there are bugs crawling under my tongue" aroma.


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## Clutch (22/8/12)

Ignore the haters and the traditionalists mate, and just do it.
I've never understood how certain people feel the need to knock other people's ideas under the guise of 'friendly advice.'


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## Nick JD (22/8/12)

Clutch said:


> Ignore the haters and the traditionalists mate, and just do it.
> I've never understood how certain people feel the need to knock other people's ideas under the guise of 'friendly advice.'



Make Clutch drink 3 pints of it.


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## bigfridge (22/8/12)

Jay Cee said:


> From what I have read, I agree that you'll tap out at 100IBU. You should take MHB's offer up of running tests, for the benefit of the whole board. It will only cost you postage.



Postage ..... plus the $50 bet !


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## manticle (22/8/12)

Clutch said:


> Ignore the haters and the traditionalists mate, and just do it.
> I've never understood how certain people feel the need to knock other people's ideas under the guise of 'friendly advice.'




If you read the thread properly, you'll see very few people have actually done that.


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## WitWonder (22/8/12)

helles said:


> You want to try something different
> Send me 4 kg of hops
> And ill send you a beer to tip down the sink


Haha lol 

To the OP: go for it, and let us know how it turns out. I'm interested in you taking up MHB's offer too.


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## hoppy2B (22/8/12)

I get hop resin precipitation on the inside of my bottles when I brew high IBU beers. It occurs more quickly in winter than in summer. My beers have low alcohol percentage as well.
Manticle suggests there are other contributors to bitterness than AA. I reckon Golding is as bitter as hell particularly when using wet hops. Goldings is high in humulene which is apparently related to AA which may be the reason.


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## jimi (22/8/12)

Clutch said:


> Ignore the haters and the traditionalists mate, and just do it.
> I've never understood how certain people feel the need to knock other people's ideas under the guise of 'friendly advice.'



The term 'haters' gets used a lot now. I assume some people either have a more aggressive internal monologue when reading than I do or they wish to promote a more emotive response than a rational one h34r:  
Please, lets not try and create an 'emperors new clothes' like approach to posting that discourages contrary opinion and assumes that only those opinions which are in accordance to original designs are in fact 'friendly advice'.


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## Nick JD (22/8/12)

I'm a hater of 1000 IBU beers. They are like making a cup of coffee with a cup of coffee beans. 

Complete shit.


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## MHB (22/8/12)

OH I dont know, I rather like Turkish coffee
Mark


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## Sammus (22/8/12)

like drinking espresso? or ristretto? if it's made properly, it's fantastic. All the same, I think Mikkeller 1000IBU was amazing. I can't wait to get my hands on another bottle.

You will need a shitload of hops though. My most recent attempt was 500g of centennial at 10min and it didn't come anywhere near it in bitterness or hop flavour or aroma. Can't wait to hear how it goes!


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## Dave70 (23/8/12)

Clutch said:


> Ignore the haters and the traditionalists mate, and just do it.
> I've never understood how certain people feel the need to knock other people's ideas under the guise of 'friendly advice.'



Not me pal.

I just sort of stood beside him whilst giving a gentle elbow to the ribs, nodded my head to the side and winked a little.


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## Jay Cee (23/8/12)

Dave70 said:


> I just sort of stood beside him whilst giving a gentle elbow to the ribs, nodded my head to the side and winked a little.



I think we bumped into each other one night when I was walking home down Oxford St from the Taphouse.


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## brendanos (23/8/12)

MHB said:


> There is a limit to the solubility of Iso Alpha Acid, its about 100 IBU (depending on how its measured) really its just a whisker over 90mg/L



I think Mark is getting solubility mixed up with the human threshold. It is true that we can't taste much over 90 BU but it is possible (albeit difficult without extract) to achieve higher (real) numbers.

I've brewed beer (confirmed via iso-octane extraction and mass spectrophotometer) as bitter as 185 BU (using 300 grams of hop pellets in 20L at SG 1.100) and it tasted great. My 1000 IBU clone however was a measly 67 BU and tasted terrible. There is more to it than theoretical (or actual) BU's...


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## Golani51 (23/8/12)

Warmbeer made a top IIPA and you should ask for the recipe. Uses 500gm pellets I think and I wish I had more than just a longneck. It was delicious and bitter. Enjoyed it as much as Mik1000. Good place to begin.


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## MHB (24/8/12)

brendanos said:


> I think Mark is getting solubility mixed up with the human threshold. It is true that we can't taste much over 90 BU but it is possible (albeit difficult without extract) to achieve higher (real) numbers.
> 
> I've brewed beer (confirmed via iso-octane extraction and mass spectrophotometer) as bitter as 185 BU (using 300 grams of hop pellets in 20L at SG 1.100) and it tasted great. My 1000 IBU clone however was a measly 67 BU and tasted terrible. There is more to it than theoretical (or actual) BU's...


Actually no Im not
There are two approved methods for measuring IBUs and the first one is being phased out.
Solvent extraction followed by UV-Vis absorption, the newer and preferred method HPLC.
The reason UV-Vis is being superseded is that its not all that accurate (give you an example in a minute) Absorption often reports a bunch of other hop products as well as Iso-Alpha.

Without being too much of a nag about it I will repeat that there is an agreed international standard method for measuring IBUs in beer, its described in the Anilitica, note that it doesnt give a frig how much hops you added or when, it reports the amount of Iso-Alpha dissolved in the finished beer, when measured accurately (i.e. HPLC) there is very much a well know and upper limit to the amount that can be dissolved, to describe that as threshold is misleading a threshold is about our ability to sense the human pain threshold is (well the upper one) would be reached by putting both hands flat on a very hot BBQ plate, you pass out from the pain. If we were talking about the ability to taste salt, two things come into play our ability to discriminate and the solubility limit of salt, salt (NaCl) has a known solubility limit of 359g/l at 20oC if I put 500g in a litre of water, 11g will sit on the bottom add more and it to will just sit on the bottom, heat the water and more goes into solution, cool it down and it falls back out.
Whether we can taste the difference between 100g/l and 200g/l would describe the human taste threshold it could be that past 20, 50 or 150 g/l (for example) it just tastes salty and amounts above that are irrelevant to human perception.
If I put 500g of salt in litre of water, then took of the liquid above the salt and bottled it claiming it was in fact a 500g/L salt solution I would be telling a clear untruth (Full of shit, Lying, dumb as dog shit... take your pick).
You can get a lot of hop products into beer but you cant get much over 90IBU (there is measurement error), claiming otherwise is misleading and untrue 

This is a snap of the mg/L and IBU measurements of the same 6 samples first by HPLC second by UV-Vis Absorption; I think it clearly shows why one is the preferred method. The results are for samples taken during an ongoing experiment on Cube Bitterness a friend and I are trying to pin down exactly what happens in a no-chill cube, the table shows the rise in bitterness over time in a cube.
Mark
View attachment 56647


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## bigfridge (24/8/12)

MHB said:


> Actually no Im not
> There are two approved methods for measuring IBUs and the first one is being phased out.
> Solvent extraction followed by UV-Vis absorption, the newer and preferred method HPLC.
> The reason UV-Vis is being superseded is that its not all that accurate (give you an example in a minute) Absorption often reports a bunch of other hop products as well as Iso-Alpha.
> ...


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## Rurik (24/8/12)

I am posting in regards to MHB's last post. I refer the reader to my Sig.


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## bum (24/8/12)

Awesome post, Mark.

Like many others, I've been guilty of thinking that the 100IBU figure was based around perception rather than a physical limit. Thanks for taking the time to make that post.

I hope you find the time to detail your findings once you're done with your cube experiments. I especially hope your research includes cube-hopping.


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## GalBrew (24/8/12)

Just listening to Brew Strong on the train and Chris White, from White Labs said that they tested the IBUs of the Mikkeller 1000 beer and it came in at around 150 IBU. They didn't specify how they measured it though.


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## Kieren (24/8/12)

gravey said:


> Kieren brewed something along these lines for our last case swap, here's a pic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I brewed this beer a while ago for an Over-The-Top case swap that never went ahead. I think people became scared to try it? It was never brewed to a specific IBU number (most of my IIPA's aren't as well, they are generally over 80 IBU's and thats all I need know). But like it has been mentioned you do get more hop characters added to the beer if you keep adding hops over the IBU perception/Iso-AA solubilty limits.

The above beer was only 1.080ish from memory (don't have the recipe in front of me), 3kg+ (I kind of lost count after finding other random bags of hops in the freezer and adding them as well). I scaled up the recipe by 5L and still only collected ~17L in the fermenter. Expect it to be pretty hazy at best, most likely sludgy. I filtered my beer twice and it still looked as sludgy as the photo suggests. Some sort of bag(s) for the hops will be essential. If you have a pulley system then even better, if will be hot and heavy when you pull it out and you won't want to be holding it up yourself for to long. Gloves!

Do you want to make the most (perceivable) bitter beer you can just hit that 1000 (calculated) IBU mark?

I say try it. It really is something to experience.


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## gravey (24/8/12)

It was very interesting to have the oppurtunity to try it, like I said I'm glad you did this kieren.....but once was enough for me


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## Liam_snorkel (24/8/12)

I don't think your filter worked hey.


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## the_new_darren (24/8/12)

MHB,

What are the scales on the graphs?

The "errors" in the BU graphs look like dilution errors to me.

tnd


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## MHB (24/8/12)

Dr D, fair observation, I really cant answer because I didnt do the tests, a friend took the samples to a brewery lab; the samples were all randomised, just labelled a, b, c...
The report is as per the scale mg/L Iso-Alpha from the HPLC and BU from the Absorption method, returned as a table, Z axis is the De-Randomised sample number, I suspect they were spat out of an automatic analyser
With the following note
Note:
Isohumulones was tested on the HPLC. It specifically measures Isocohumulone, isohumulone and isoadhumulone, and totals their amounts.
BU is a wet method that measures all substances that dissolve into 2,2,4-trimethylpentane and adsorbs on the spectrophotometer at 275nm. Typically, our worts, that do not have hops added, give a BU of 2.5 to 4.5.
I know I will be using the HPLC results in future work
Mark


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## MHB (24/8/12)

Sorry meant to post this earlier, just been busy:-

Just to clarify the solubility limit for iso-alpha is 14 ppm, it is often said that 1mg/l is 1IBU, in fact its is closer to 0.7-0.8 than 1, not really important when we are talking low alpha beers, so 14 * 0.7 = 98 IBU
However that is at 20 oC, most (probably all commercial) beer gets well under this temperature at some point in the production so unless there is some Iso-Alpha added post chilling the IBUs will be lower than 98IBU.

And yes the research we are doing is in part going to give an equation that should predict very accurately what happens in a cube, as well as in a kettle, what it cant and wont be able to do is predict what happens in the fermenter, we know the bitterness form the same wort can vary by up to 30% depending on type of yeast, pitch size ferment temperature and a bunch of other variables, predicting what is in the wort before fermentation is looking relatively straight forward.
Mark


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## SJW (24/8/12)

I tasted Doc's 1000 IBU berw a few years ago. While it was a sensational beer, it was very drinkable and only slightly more bitter than an 70 IBU IIPA I had previously brewed.
My 2c worth, dont waste your money on all those hops. If it was me (and its not) I would be using some isomerised liquid hop extract in an attempt to blow your mind. 
Just think if 1000IBU was possible, it would be undrinkable. If 100IBU's is max that can be disolved, and Docs 1000IBU Brew was every bit of that, there is no way you could drink a brew 10 x more bitter.
Also I would be working out some way of pressing the wort of of all those hops to.


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## Malted (24/8/12)

MHB said:


> Z axis is the De-Randomised sample number,
> Mark


I see, so the *X* axis represents the samples that were taken at differing time periods to represent how Isohumulones concentration and bitterness units increases over time.


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## Muscovy_333 (24/8/12)

So based on the artistic license for naming a beer as 1000IBU, you might as well up the anti to "infinity IBU" and brew it to the maximum percievable hop utilisation. 
Save your dollars on over engineering and get the badge for the highest possible 'named' IBU's in a beer. Chances are it is just as hoppy as a 1000IBU 'er.

I should copyright the naming it before someone uses it!


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## Malted (24/8/12)

Muscovy said:


> So based on the artistic license for naming a beer as 1000IBU, you might as well up the anti to "infinity IBU" and brew it to the maximum percievable hop utilisation.
> Save your dollars on over engineering and get the badge for the highest possible 'named' IBU's in a beer. Chances are it is just as hoppy as a 1000IBU 'er.
> 
> I should copyright the naming it before someone uses it!





I think you're onto something! You could go for these too:
- Lightyear Beer
- Buzz Beer
- Buzz lager (that might be popular amongst Bud drinkers and that leads to the next one)
- Buzz light

The possibilities are almost infinite!


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## bigfridge (24/8/12)

Muscovy said:


> So based on the artistic license for naming a beer as 1000IBU



It is an out and out lie.

IBU stands for International Bittering Units which is a measure of the actual bitterness of a beer from the alpha acid dissolved from the hops.

Just because you add sufficient alpha acid to contribute that much to a beer, doesn't mean that you have acheived it.

It is no different to me saying that I have enough fuel in my car to go 400 miles, so IF I could use it all in an hour I my car can go 400 miles an hour ! You would all call me a liar .... or worse.

To continue referring to these beers as 1000 IBU's does nothing to educate people on this forum as it is simply misleading.


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## Malted (24/8/12)

bigfridge said:


> It is no different to me saying that I have enough fuel in my car to go 400 miles, so IF I could use it all in an hour I my car can go 400 miles an hour ! You would all call me a liar .... or worse.



Theoretically... with some minor modifications...




 :lol:


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