# Using All Dried Malts In An Extract Brew?



## Pollux (5/11/08)

While on the way home from the shops today, the wife and I had a chat about my brewing, during which she asked "Can you just use the stuff you have at home and not buy the coopers kit tins anymore??"

The 'stuff' she is referring to is my delivery which arrived yesterday, 6kgs LDME, 3kgs DEX, 1kg Crystal, 500g Roast wheat malt and 100g of fuggles,goldings and cascade, plus some safale...

My current plan is to start using the above with the Coopers Real Ale kits, but in reality, if I am doing 20-30min hop boils, and steeping grains, why not just go all extract??

The question is, after roughly 3 hours of reading on this forum and others, are there issues using all dried malts and no tins at all? I have read stories of canned extract twang, while others have mentioned the using dried leads to less body....

So please, share with me your experience....


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## bconnery (5/11/08)

Pollux said:


> While on the way home from the shops today, the wife and I had a chat about my brewing, during which she asked "Can you just use the stuff you have at home and not buy the coopers kit tins anymore??"
> 
> The 'stuff' she is referring to is my delivery which arrived yesterday, 6kgs LDME, 3kgs DEX, 1kg Crystal, 500g Roast wheat malt and 100g of fuggles,goldings and cascade, plus some safale...
> 
> ...


No issues at all. 
Much better than kits in my book because you control the beer. 
I stopped using kits fairly early on and used this method for a number of years. 
Extract + specialty grains for colour and flavour and eventually mini mashes. 

Here's a link to a big post I did a while back on extract brewing.


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## Gavo (5/11/08)

Definately no problem at all. I have just recently done this and have just bottled my third brew in this way. Far far better beer. Better still I find that I have been able to drink the brews as soon as they are carbed up. I will not be going back to kits. And I am betting once you have done this that you will not go back to kits either.

Cheers
Gavo.


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## Pollux (5/11/08)

Thanks guys...

Anyone care to fire me a recipe so I can get the Minister of Finances approval?? As for Style?? Well, in terms of commercials I tend to lean towards JS Golden Ale, Amber Ale, Original Ale, and I was a big fan of the 2007 Hop thief....

I need to prove to her that the costing per batch will not blow out as compared to kit and bit...


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## kevo (5/11/08)

Basic Brewing does a good series of video podcasts for a DME IPA with just DME and cascade hops.

I think it's called making a six-pack IPA.

start here, it's at the bottom of the page....

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=video

Very simple and probably a good place to start.

Kev


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## Jase71 (5/11/08)

So what are the advantages of doing a dried malt + hops brew over a liquid malt (ie an _un_hopped can) + hops brew ? Same ingredients without the H2O hydration, no ?


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## Pollux (5/11/08)

My main reason is price and storage, plus I don't have to use a set unit (i.e. a can)......

Can't wait till we next move, then the AG fun will be allowed to begin..


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## Gavo (5/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> So what are the advantages of doing a dried malt + hops brew over a liquid malt (ie an _un_hopped can) + hops brew ? Same ingredients without the H2O hydration, no ?



Never did use liquid unhopped malt, only dry. My thoughts are that with dry I can choose how much I want to use. If I were to use a can I would have to use all at once. One kilogram of dry is also equivalant to 1.25 kilo of liquid.

2c


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## Pollux (5/11/08)

LOL, I just did the conversations to metric on that 6pk IPA then stepped it up to batch size of 23L......



> LDME $40.02
> Cascade $20.64
> Safale S-04 $4.00
> 
> TOTAL $64.66



I don't see the wife approving that for some reason.......


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## Jase71 (5/11/08)

Then the choice is clear for you, hey.... time for a new wife.  

I'm lucky in that regard that my partner is keen on my new hobby, and she enjoys beer over other beverages. In fact after she (over)-used most of my no rinse on the weekend for some Oztops ginger beer base, I pointed out that I needed some more by this Sunday, she sat down and ordered some online last night, and to justify the cost of shipping, decided to add a few other items. Best part of a hundred bucks later on her credit card.....  

Anyway, back to the topic, Im very keen to try an all-DME brew (I figure this is what's referred to 'extract brewing' ?) so I have greater control over what goes in. Which means a huge pot, probably a gas burner of some sort etc.... ONE day this is going to pay for itself I'm sure......


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## Bribie G (5/11/08)

I've made a couple of LDME pom style bitters and they have turned out great. Typical recipe:

2 kg LMDE 
500 dex
300g lyles golden syrup

200g crystal steeped
East Kent Goldings and Fuggles in a 30 min boil
Dry hopped fuggles pellets

Nottingham or S04 yeast

I also made a variant with carapils instead of the crystal, Saaz and Tettnang and saflager s23 but it turned out way too dry for my taste. Did one virtually the same but incorporated a kilo minimash of lager malt - no golden syrup - and very nice.

If I were doing the bitter again I would probably up the LDME to 2.5k as it turned out a bit less alky than I like. 

Jase: no need to boil the LDME unless you want to just bring it to the boil briefly in a couple of litres of water to sanitise for peace of mind. The only thing you need to boil is the litre or so of steepings from the crystal malt if you use it and the hops. If you are not using any adjucts like crystal malt, boil the hops in a litre or so of water with a bit of LDME added to increase the efficiency of the hop extraction (apparently it gives better results with some sugars present, I actually boiled the tin of golden syrup in with the hops to achieve this)
So no need to buy big boiling vessels, in fact the beauty of all extract is that you can do it with what you probably have in your kitchen already.




I know, over carbed to buggery :lol:


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## Gavo (5/11/08)

Here (link) is an APA I did as my first extract. Tastes pretty darn good IMHO and in the opinion of my mates who finished it off, at a party last week, for me. Cost $27.00 for 21 litres. Can't really complain about that.

Huge pot and burner not needed for extract as the boil was only eight litres in a 12 litre on the gas stove in the kitchen.

Cheers
Gavo


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## 0M39A (5/11/08)

extract brewing is great.

no need to stick to a set recipe, just go for it 

eg: basic apa:

3kg dried extract
200g crystal
bitter to 30ibu with xxx high alpha hop
20g of something american @ 15min
20g of something american @ flameout

21-23L 

s-05 yeast

bit more detail:

steep your crystal in a litre or so of water @ 70c for 30min

rinse with warm water into a big pot, add a couple hundred grams of malt extract, up to 5L (or more if you can)

bring to boil, add bittering hops, 45min later add flavour, 15min later take off heat and add aroma

let it sit a few min, pour into carboy (leave as much trub behind, or strain).

add the rest of your malt extract, top up with water

let cool, then add yeast.

simple

want something english? use english hops, maybe a touch of choc malt for flavour, and use english hops and yeast.


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## Pollux (5/11/08)

That sounds interesting...

Now to convince SWMBO that using $24 worth of LDME in one batch is acceptable....

Think I could use the "It was your idea" line??


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## 0M39A (5/11/08)

Pollux said:


> That sounds interesting...
> 
> Now to convince SWMBO that using $24 worth of LDME in one batch is acceptable....
> 
> Think I could use the "It was your idea" line??



my favourite is the "just think how much it would cost to buy the same quality commercial beer" then reel off the cost of a few expensive brews 

$24 ldme, $10 hops, $3-4 yeast, $2 crystal (just wanted to round to $40 ) still doesnt even add up to a carton of decent commercial beer.


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## Weizguy (5/11/08)

You'll soon be buying the pale (or dark/amber/wheat) DME by the bag or box of 25 kg.
That's the cheaper way, per unit of weight.

DME-based wheat (weizen and wit) beer can be very nice, and there are quite a few recipes out there. There are some styles where you need ag, but that's mostly to achieve the right colour and nuances of flavour. You can create most of those required flavours with good technique, the right yeast at the appropriate temperature, and the right hops.

This is why it took me so long to come to all-grain, and my first couple of grain beers were not as good as the DME beers.

Certainly worth a thought, and YES, you can do it with kitchen utensils and pots. A cheapie thin-wall stainless pot from a supermarket/department store will go a long way too. It will allow you to do close to a full-boil beer with most of the malt and all the hops, adding the remaining malt with about 10 minutes to go.

Check my earlier posts for DME recipes.
Beerz
Les


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## Pollux (5/11/08)

I figure if I buy wool on my way to the post office to collect my supplies from the HBS, then I MIGHT be able to get away with it...

Or...

"Honey, this is just more proof I need to get into AG"

EDIT: Just a quick note, where is everyone buying DME in 25kg sizes?? I have checked online prices of three different stores in Sydney, cheapest I can find is $24.50 for 3kg...


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## Jase71 (5/11/08)

Mate, $2 a litre is a good point of arguement isnt it ? How much does she spend on hair care  Word of advice, That arguement works much better if you shave your head first :lol: 

Loving this thread, Pollux for starting it & others for the invaluable experience shared. While theres a shitload of info out there already, it's good to have it broken down for the amateurs. I'll have enough in the pantry by tomorrow to create something awesome, even if its a kit/extract hybrid.

In the larder is: 100g cascade pellets, 100g saaz, 100g fuggles, one can liquid caramalt, one can unhopped liquid wheat malt, a kilo of cracked crystal grain, a couple of kilos dextrose, some maltodextrin that seems to be what I'll not bother buying again, and a newly found local coles that has a huge range (15-20) of kits, and a handy supply of LDME if I need some in a hurry. 

Needless to say, brew number three is going to get very interesting............


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## Weizguy (5/11/08)

Pollux said:


> I figure if I buy wool on my way to the post office to collect my supplies from the HBS, then I MIGHT be able to get away with it...
> 
> Or...
> 
> ...


Tune in with your lhbs, and ask there, or send 'em an email. Bintani DME comes in 25kg sacks (think of a concrete bag) and Muntons comes in a 25kg box (with double plastic bag inside).

The last time I got a price, before the last few dollar drops and shortages, the Muntons box was about $130 per box. Would be a fair bit more now, but still cheaper in bulk.

You can make a great APA, Arrogant Bastard or IIPA with DME and the right hops/yeast.


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## Pollux (5/11/08)

Main point of argument with the missus will be "But you drank the cheaper stuff you made, why can't you keep drinking it??"

Still cheaper than $15 a 6pk at the local bottle-o though

Might continue with the Real Ale idea for now (I have 3 sitting in my big plastic box of goodies) and work on finding me some cheap LDME...


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## flattop (5/11/08)

Well done Jase, i am up to brew 5 and still using kits, i have picked up some US05 and 100g of hops today though 
I have a backlog of kits i picked up "on special" to use up (grabbed 2 more today) Got an ESB kit $10 off.

As for the financial's depending on which size and flavor a carton of stubbies = approx 8 litres beer for $40 (approx $5 a liter), a K&K kit say $15 and $3 for dextrose (approx 1.25 a liter) obviously expenses go up depending on which kit, how much dex or malt, cost of crown seals etc (plus labor) but the quality of product (should) be better.


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## 0M39A (5/11/08)

Pollux said:


> Main point of argument with the missus will be "But you drank the cheaper stuff you made, why can't you keep drinking it??"
> 
> Still cheaper than $15 a 6pk at the local bottle-o though
> 
> Might continue with the Real Ale idea for now (I have 3 sitting in my big plastic box of goodies) and work on finding me some cheap LDME...



go 2 cans of real ale, and dont bother with a bittering hop addition, the two kits will do a great job.

then just use a little dme, and your crystal malt and do a short boil with whatever hops you feel like, and most important, a decent yeast.


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## Tyred (5/11/08)

Grain and grape has 20kg bags of light dries malt extra for $125. From memory, they sell Bintani DME.

As said before, talk to your LHBS. You may be able to do some sort of deal with them.


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## Gavo (5/11/08)

Pollux said:


> Main point of argument with the missus will be "But you drank the cheaper stuff you made, why can't you keep drinking it??"




Word of warning, once you do an extract and steep some grains do your own hop additions you won't want to drink the cheaper stuff.  Better still if SWMBO drinks your beer she also will not want to go back to the cheaper stuff. So everyone's a winner. 

Just to add to the idea of buying your malt in 25Kg bags, I walked into a HBS on one of my trips to the big smoke (no affiliation to the sponsors, didn't know them at the time) and asked about the price of LDME this way and he offered 25Kg fo $138. That's only $5.52 a Kg! certainly makes extract brewing cheaper. Damn wish I had bought it then but I was using kits at the time. :angry: 

Just jump in, do an extract and see how it goes, Hell you have the ingredients right now, why wait any longer. If you like the result, check out buying in bulk. I Know next time I go back to the big smoke I will be looking to buy my malt in bulk.

Cheers
Gavo.


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## Bribie G (5/11/08)

Pollux said:


> Still cheaper than $15 a 6pk at the local bottle-o though



You've hit the nail squarely on the head there mate, If you want to drink something a cut above megaswill, for example Stella - which isn't that much better - you're up for more like $18 at the local Liquorland. Sometimes I scream at paying $30 to make a good brew but let's keep it in perspective :icon_cheers:


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## Pollux (5/11/08)

mmmmm, many opinions to take on board....

I can picture the missus response "I thought you started homebrew to save money??" She doesn't drink beer.........

Thanks to all my reading and people's replies, I'm starting to wonder if I should just take the plunge and start doing partials, Get a bucket with a snaplock tap, a wide mouthed grainbag and just jump right on in.......


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## Fantoman (5/11/08)

Pollux said:


> I can picture the missus response "I thought you started homebrew to save money??" She doesn't drink beer.........



I think just about every married hb'er has had to justify the costs to SWMBO  

My only suggestion is that the response "I did, but now it's turning into a life consuming obsession!" probably isn't the best response  

I was lucky... I got my wife to pop into Uncle Dans to pick up a case each of LCPA and JSGA shortly before I started brewing (the 2 cases came to around $110) so she doesn't see the $30ish per brew (all extract) as too bigger problem :chug:


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## Gavo (5/11/08)

Pollux said:


> I can picture the missus response "I thought you started homebrew to save money??" She doesn't drink beer.........



Oh well, it was just a thought.



Pollux said:


> I'm starting to wonder if I should just take the plunge and start doing partials, Get a bucket with a snaplock tap, a wide mouthed grainbag and just jump right on in.......



As the Nike add says, Just do it.

Cheers
Gavo


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## Pollux (5/11/08)

Wife has just read this over my shoulder after getting home from work.....

I think she must have been helping herself to the drug cabinet at work (she's a nurse) as the words "Provided it doesn't go over $50 a batch" just came out of her mouth....


Note to self, waiting till tomorrow when she gets home to ask for kegs....


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## fergi (5/11/08)

just thinking here,why dont you guys just spend your own money instead of asking the wife,spend your own and she doesnt have a clue what it costs,or for that matter she probably wouldnt care, i dont get it, old saying,,,never let the left hand know what the right hand is doing
cheers
fergi


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## Jase71 (6/11/08)

fergi said:


> just thinking here,why dont you guys just spend your own money instead of asking the wife,



LOL, someone had to come out and say it. Maybe our poor ol' beer brother doesnt get any pocket money from his missus.
You could always brew up a kilo of dextrose and cheap yeast in water, add some red cordial and wa'la... designer RTD's to keep the finance manager happy while you go shopping on your own :icon_cheers: 

Alternatively, selling some of those hospital pharms on the side might help fund the brews. I'll place my order now for a litre of morphine please.


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## Pollux (6/11/08)

While we have one income (mine) while my wife studies, all purchases are a joint decision......
And given I allocate a certain amount of my pay to the grocery shopping, she may get a bit peeved if my brew budget exceeded that.....

Welcome to the joys of having an open and trusting marriage, I know what she does, she knows what I do...No secrets in this house.



Plus, and this is the major one, if HB starts to piss her off, I will lose my bottling assistant, and I can't be arsed doing it by myself....


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## Weizguy (6/11/08)

Pollux said:


> <abbrev>
> I can picture the missus response "I thought you started homebrew to save money??" She doesn't drink beer.........
> </abbrev>



So did I, dear. So did I, but now it's becoming a situation where it's about the flavour, and I can't do that on the same budget. Then you might need to buy a mixed 6 from Dan's (or wherever...I'm not fussy) including a German Pils, Czech pils, Munich Dark, English bitter, Weizen, Witbier, and a Tripel, for example. Tally that up and then advise that you could have made a batch of any of these for about the same price or less.

I didn't have this problem, as I was only drinking a 6 pack of beer or less each week, so the (now ex, but unrelated to this topic) Missus was happy to see me making beer and enjoying its consumption at whatever price. It was cheaper when I started with K&K, but then I moved on. In the times when you can't afford a batch, you stretch the supplies until you can afford it.

Remember it's not about the money, it's about the beer. You don't need to brew as often if you enjoy it *every* time you have a beer. The Unibroue credo is "Drink less, drink better", and a lot of brewers should keep that in mind.
Testify!


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## fergi (6/11/08)

yes well i can appreciate your circumstances pollux, if thats the case then you have to be a bit carefull,but one day when your missus works youll be able to do what you like with your hobby,i know theres a lot of guys here that spend a lot of money on their gear and i certainly dont have that sort of expendable cash either, but i do spend my own money and then you dont have to justify to the missus what your buying.and as Les the weizguy said better to make less but make quality, i know since i have just got my keg system i drink a lot more ,this will pass though as the novelty bit is still on,
cheers
fergi


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## Gavo (6/11/08)

Pollux said:


> Wife has just read this over my shoulder after getting home from work.....
> 
> I think she must have been helping herself to the drug cabinet at work (she's a nurse) as the words "Provided it doesn't go over $50 a batch" just came out of her mouth....




Well I can see it now, one extract coming up. Then another, then another....... well you get the idea. No turning back now.  

Cheers 
Gavo


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## Hefty (6/11/08)

Pollux said:


> mmmmm, many opinions to take on board....
> 
> I can picture the missus response "I thought you started homebrew to save money??" She doesn't drink beer.........
> 
> Thanks to all my reading and people's replies, I'm starting to wonder if I should just take the plunge and start doing partials, Get a bucket with a snaplock tap, a wide mouthed grainbag and just jump right on in.......


This is the advice I was given and I'm sooo glad I listened. I went from Kits and bits straight to my first partial mash this weekend just gone.

The only extra expenses above and beyond the ingredients for me were $20 for a digital probe thermometer and $20 for a hops/grain bag (I used it for both within the one brew day) and both should last me for quite a few years I expect.
Did my mash in the grain bag in a six pack esky, strained the mash liquor back throught the grains in the bag to clear the runnings a little and then boiled it up with the hops and a little extra DME for my utilisation calculations. Added the rest of 2.5kg of DME at flameout.
Even got into fast wort cooling with some pre-frozen 1.25L PET bottles of ice sanitised with acidulated bleach solution and submerged in the wort with the lid over them. 10L From >90*C down to 24*C in about half an hour!

I'm not even at AG level yet but already I feel like the possiblities have just become endless!

Cheers!
Jono.


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## olde (6/11/08)

Pollux, your preferences are pretty much exactly the same as mine, so you might like to try the following. I was aiming for a Golden Ale knockoff but didn't have all the exact ingredients as Smurtos famed clone called for.
Can Coopers Real Ale
Can Coopers Liquid Wheat Malt Extract
Brought 1Litre water and approx 200g of wheat malt to the boil, tossed in 12g Amarillo hops.
After 10 mins of that boiling threw in 12g of Cascade.
Boiled further 5 mins and tipped into fermenter with remaining ingredients.
Topped up to 22L and added sachet of S-04. (Preferred to use US-05 but had none handy).
Yum.


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## Pollux (6/11/08)

Okay, I have just been reading on howtobrew.com.........

yeah, I can do partials, seems easy enough...

Plan now is

1) Find two foodgrade buckets to build a bucket in bucket mashtun
2) Purchase some grains from LHBS
3) Work out a system which would allow me heat my strike and sparge water easily in the kitchen (I currently have a 15L pot for boiling, thinking heat the strike water in it, get the mash started, meanwhile heat sparge water in same pot and funnel into cube with tap until needed for sparge)
4) Workout a recipe
5) Purchase some brewing software to make step 4 easier  
6) Make tasty beer
7) Wait
8) Drink tasty beer....And simply alter my consumption levels so I still drink $X worth of HB a week, but it's better.


Thanks to whoever it was on the chat last night who suggested doing partials, I can't remember who it was now, but thank you....


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## buttersd70 (6/11/08)

Pollux...
extract brews are good, partials are....so much better. Theyre surprisingly easy to do, and they're fairly forgiving as well. Even if the grain side of it goes a bit pear shaped, and say you miss your targets and efficiencies....you can just up the extract side of it on the fly, and it's still great beer. I skipped partials entirely and went from extracts to AG. I've only just recently gone back to partials (cos stocks are low, and on my AG rig, if I do it as a partial it means I can easily do it as a double batch). I have to say that a well made partial rates right up with AG in the end result.


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## seemax (6/11/08)

I do brew K&K for guys at work, and whilst cheap (<$20 for 23L) and easy (< 1hr) they tend to produce what I would call average beer. A few have surprised me (APA with Coopers bottle yeast) though.

Extract really does open up the doors for brewing a wide range of great beer. The end result is in your control and you get to use 'real' hops, not hop extract. You can decide how malty, or how bitter. It also means you can choose a quality yeast, dry or liquid. Cost wise, it's only marginally more. I buy LME in 5kg bags at $7/kg. Dry yeast is $4-5, but I'll sometimes get a 6mth old Wyeast for $7. Hops, $4-8 per brew. So for 23L using 2kg of LME, it's around $22-25. 

Partial mashing- now things are getting interesting. Use LME as your base and steep some well modified malt for additional flavour. It might be as simple as crystal for sweetness, carapil for body, or choc malt for a lovely roasted edge. The extra time to steep (30mins) is worth it. IMO, you can produce fantastic beer using this method without the time and equip needed for all grain. It only adds $1-2 to the price of a 23L batch.

Although I prefer and enjoy all grain brewing, with a busy job, 2 young kids, house renovations, etc I struggle to find the time. I have done what i call fast track all grain. I boil 2L water + 200g LME and do my hop schedule in that for 60mins. At the same time I do my mash in the esky tun for 60mins. Once mashed & sparged I split boil the wort for 15mins on my kitchen stove. I then no chill into a cube and pitch the yeast at midday the next day. This method can be done in 2-3 hours. In terms of cost, my last few brews have been using mostly Powells malt at $3/kg. So a 5kg mash + yeast/hops is about $25!


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## Gavo (6/11/08)

Damn it, reading and adding to this thread got me thinking about partials and mini-mashes. Now look what happened now I just bought a 15 litre water cooler to make a mini mash tun with, well actually SWMBO bought it for me.  Really don't like the idea of holding the temp for an hour on the stove top.

Cheers
Gavo


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## Pollux (6/11/08)

Bahaha, I'm officially contagious....

Well, I thought I'd throw a shoutout on the local freecycle site for some foodgrade buckets...

Picked up some smaller ones this arvo, will be getting some that previously had 27kg of liquid malt in them on Saturday...

Step one complete.......Might need to add step 1a) insulate plasitc mashtun with yoga mat and duct tape...


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## Gavo (6/11/08)

This is starting to look like a race. :lol: No fare, you have a LHBS and I don't.  

Cheers
Gavo


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## Pollux (6/11/08)

I have an online HBS  

We are in the same boat....


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## Gavo (6/11/08)

Ok, were even. I'm in the big smoke, Brisvagas, in two weeks and looking at a 25kg buy of LDME. Can't come soon enough.  All I have to do then is buy my grains and other ingredients as I need them from online HBS.

Cheers
Gavo


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## Jase71 (6/11/08)

Pollux said:


> Well, I thought I'd throw a shoutout on the local freecycle site for some foodgrade buckets...



You referring to the place in the Marrickville Community Centre ? I've been considering popping down there for a while to get a whole bunch of plastic pails that I saw there a year ago. Need some for gardening stuff storage (soil etc) but they would be bloody handy as a secondary as well. I'de imagine if they have them down there theyde sell for a dollar or two each......


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## Bribie G (6/11/08)

Pollux

If doing a partial with two kg of malt grain plus a bit of crystal or other speciality grains a perfect little container for about fifteen bucks is :





It's an 8.5 litre Decor container, get it from any Woolies, fits snugly into my esky which is just the small one (about 30L I think). Mash the grain at 65 degrees or so in a hot water bath in the esky for an hour to an hour and a half, doing a couple of temperature adjustments with hot water if necessary.

Strain and sparge through big wire strainer $4 at Bobs Warehouse into a ten litre stockpot which I paid $12 for if I recall, and you're ready to hop and boil.

Low cost and bloody effective. No need to go too hi tech for partials.


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## Pollux (6/11/08)

Lets see, I have 15L pot (Just did a kit and bit in it to get rid of one of the real ale cans), 3 buckets sitting just next to me that may or may not be used to make a mashtun, depends on the quality of the free buckets I'll be getting on Saturday...I plan on following this recipe for my first partial and with 4kg of grain it might be an ask for that container.....Hence wanting the bucket in bucket system. I saw the idea on howtobrew, seems easy enough, so I'll do it.....

Jase: Nope, not reverse garbage (Did I mention I'm not allowed in there alone.....Something about my ability to horde :huh , but freecycle, think ebay/trading post, but no money changes hands, you want to get rid of something, you post it up, one man's trash is another man's treasure...It's a yahoo group, hit up google and you will find it.


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## Bribie G (6/11/08)

Pollux said:


> Lets see, I have 15L pot ............and with 4kg of grain it might be an ask for that container.....Hence wanting the bucket in bucket system. I saw the idea on howtobrew, seems easy enough, so I'll do it.....



Pollux, not trying to rain on your parade but with four kilos of grain, which is virtually an all grain brew quantity your 15L pot isn't going to cut it when you go to boil the resulting wort from the first runnings plus spargings . For that quantity you are looking at more like a 25 to 30 L pot, with a gas burner etc. as 15L would be the limit to what you can boil on an ordinary stove top. I'm currently getting into All grain with a 40L electric boiler arriving soon and that's going to handle it fine, but not 15L.

The mash in a bucket in bucket should be ok, but for 4 kilos of grain mashed even at a ratio of 1 kilo to 2 litres of water then batch sparged a couple of times you are going to end up with over 20 litres of wort to boil.

Our resident maths man Butters advised me on my current 10L pot setup and we agreed that 2kg of grain would be pushing it to the limit, which has turned out to be fairly accurate. Suggest you drop your grain to say 2.5 kg or 3 at the most for your proposed set up. I see Butters has posted on this thread and may be able to do some number crunching for you as well. 

However you can do a very nice partial brew with 2Kg or a tad more of grain malt and use LDME to make up the rest of the fermentables. 

Cheers 

Michael


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## buttersd70 (7/11/08)

4kgs of grain is actually a bigger grain bill than what I use for many of my AG's  

Bribie is right about 2kg being a good amount. To give an example, at 70% efficiency for the grain portion
2kg base grain + 1.5kg lme should give you an og of 1039 in 23L. From that, the breakup of the contributions to the fermentables is 48.3% for the grain, and 51.7% for the lme. 

For a higher grav, say 1051, this can be achieved by adding 750g ldme. This still gives a 36.8% contribution to fermentables from the grain. IMHO, 25% grain contribution is good, 33% is great, 50% is excellent, and any higher, you might as well move over onto AG.

From the perspective of water requirements, for 4kg, boiled in a 15L pot, you would be stretching the friendship at anything more than 12L in the boil (unless you want to spend all afternoon cleaning boilovers off your stovetop.)
For a 12L boil size, with a mash at 2.5L/kg, you would be sparging with less than 2L/kg water, which would make it very inneficient. Added to that, the BG would be 1072, which would lower utilisation of the hops significantly. It's basically the same as trying to do a 10L AG batch for abrew that would have an OG of 1082....and when you start talking about those numbers, you're efficiency drops through the floor. For a 12L boil, anything above 2.5kg is going to start giving you efficiency issues; if you can get more in the pot without boiling over (which to a large degree will depend on its diameter), you could go as high as 3kg. 

So short version is, Bribie is bang on with his estimate of 2.5-3kg of grain.


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## Pollux (7/11/08)

It would appear my maths does suck..... <_< 


Right, lets knock that back to 2-2.5kg of grain, I see I failed to actually link to the recipe I referred to, I am gifted....

Right, so lets say I want to follow this recipe for my first partial, butters, you numbers guru you, how would you suggest adjusting the numbers to make it work?


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## Jase71 (7/11/08)

buttersd70 said:


> Bribie is right about 2kg being a good amount. To give an example, at 70% efficiency for the grain portion



Sorry to interrupt again buut this seems as good a thread as any to chime in..... so to get this straight, for every kilogram of grain used by the method discussed, you would yield 700 grams of fermentable malt equilavlent to the same character of LDME ? That seems a high figure, as I would have thought the dry weight of grain would be measure least half of unwanted husks and other fibrous matter....... 

And if all-grain is the goal for Pollux with his 15l pot capacity, why not do two batches back to back then add the results of both to the one fermenter ?


----------



## Gavo (7/11/08)

buttersd70 said:


> 4kgs of grain is actually a bigger grain bill than what I use for many of my AG's
> 
> Bribie is right about 2kg being a good amount.



I was thinking this myself last night and I was hoping those with the experience would give their opinion. I can only boil 8 - 9 litres max at present and was thinking a grain bill of around 1.8 kg would give a pre-boil gravity of around 1044. I can add LDME to make up the rest of the fermentables. 

I am thinking that with that recipe you would replace about 2kg of the traditional ale malt with another 1.1 kg of LDME therefore giving a grain bill of 2 kg. I am interested what those in the know will say, Butters h34r: . As mentioned in this thread before, I am on the same ground as Pollux here and taking the step to Partials.

Cheers
Gavo


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## Pollux (7/11/08)

I'm glad my thread is being so useful to others.....

Spent this morning playing with Beersmith, is most interesting...


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## buttersd70 (7/11/08)

Pollux said:


> It would appear my maths does suck..... <_<
> 
> 
> Right, lets knock that back to 2-2.5kg of grain, I see I failed to actually link to the recipe I referred to, I am gifted....
> ...


Gavo is right with what he's saying, for sure. There are a few ways that it can be done, basically, as gavo said, replace the jw trad ale with enough ldme to up the grav to the same amount. For me, I would make it an even 2kg of ldme, and reduce the trad ale down to 1.2kg. (edit - this would give 2.6kg of grain, which you should be able to do on the equipment discussed). I personally wouldn't go further down on the JW trad; if I wanted to reduce the grain further, I would start replacing some of he wheat with dry wheat malt, so that from a grain perspective, the trad ale is equal or greater than the wheat grain.



Jase71 said:


> Sorry to interrupt again buut this seems as good a thread as any to chime in..... so to get this straight, for every kilogram of grain used by the method discussed, you would yield 700 grams of fermentable malt equilavlent to the same character of LDME ? That seems a high figure, as I would have thought the dry weight of grain would be measure least half of unwanted husks and other fibrous matter.......
> 
> And if all-grain is the goal for Pollux with his 15l pot capacity, why not do two batches back to back then add the results of both to the one fermenter ?


jase, you can do 2 batches side by side,, and then blend into the fermenter; particularly if it was no chilled and hotpacked. But you would need to do the 2 mashes seperately. If you do a mash, and have more than you can boil, then the left over that is waiting around starts to run into issues with continued enzyme activity, and the risk of infection increases (although for me, its the continuation of the enzyme in the liquor that is the bigger problem of the two.) There was a thread about not mashing straight after the boil in the AG threads recently. Leaving it just long enough to do back to back boils isn't that much of an issue, but it is something that needs to be considered.

With the grains yield, all grains have different yield potential, and there are various scales for this. But basically, the grain weight is mainly the endosperm, the husks weigh next to nothing. The actual yield depends on 2 factors. The potential, and the efficiency. For the trad ale, the potential is 80%, and at 75% efficiency, the yield would be potential x efficiency x weight which is 0.6 kg _extract weight_ per kg of grain. This is not to be confused with the weight of extract, extract weight refers to the weight of the actual fermentable. 1kg of ldme has an extract weight of 920-970g (depending on manufacturer and processes used) because even 'dry' extract has a proportion of water and other non fermentables in it. If interested, have a read of Palmers how to brew (I think its chapter 12), where he discusses potentials for various grains, and how to calculate gravities manually from that.

If I;m not careful, some of you buggers are going to come over to the dark side :lol:

Edit: if your efficiency is lower, it just means that you will be short on gravity...you have 3 options there. 1/ add more ldme to bring the gravity back up. 2/reduce the volume (by not adding as much water into the fermenter at the end), thereby bringing the grav back up, and adjust your hop weights to give you the same IBU for the new volume, or 3/ go with the slightly lower grav, and reduce the IBU to keep it in the same BU:GU ratio. IBU/OG = BUGU, and in this case it is 69%. So the IBU required would be 69% of the OG.


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## Gavo (7/11/08)

buttersd70 said:


> If I;m not careful, some of you buggers are going to come over to the dark side :lol:



Watch out were on our way, building the 15 lt mash tun this weekend. Ready then for the mini-mash.  

Cheers
Gavo


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## Pollux (7/11/08)

Has this become a race??? 

I should be working on mine this weekend too, once I have my big buckets 

Butters: Thanks for that, now to smack those numbers into beersmith and see what happens...Actually, speaking of that software...I think I may have stuffed up somewhere with a recipe I copied from another forum somewhere....



> Type: Extract
> Date: 9/11/2008
> Batch Size: 23.00 L
> Boil Size: 10.00 L
> ...


Now, according to Beersmith and using Tinseth as the bitterness formula, that comes out with a bitterness ratio of 1.319 <_< I did some research on ratios and that seems awfully high to me.....Perhaps I should rethink that one :icon_cheers:


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## buttersd70 (7/11/08)

Pollux said:


> Has this become a race???
> 
> I should be working on mine this weekend too, once I have my big buckets
> 
> ...



I dont even need to put it into beersmith to know that beer is way too bitter for my blood....just saying 'add 16IBU to a coopers Real at 1037' is enough to make me cringe...but to each their own.


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## Pollux (7/11/08)

Beersmith is doing funky things, I just removed the Real Ale and put it back in IBU 31.8, Ratio 0.850.............I must have annoyed it...

Might up the LDME to 2.25kg, thats whats left in one of the bags, brings the OG up to 1.057, Ratio 0.555......That sounds more like my sort of bitterness level....


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## Gavo (7/11/08)

Pollux, check the brewsheet for the pre-boil gravity. When you add in a malt you can then double click on the malt addition and check the add after boil box, this will change the preboil gravity and the bitterness level.

If it is a race then it is a good and friendly one.  

Cheers
Gavo


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## buttersd70 (7/11/08)

Pollux said:


> Beersmith is doing funky things, I just removed the Real Ale and put it back in IBU 31.8, Ratio 0.850.............I must have annoyed it...
> 
> Might up the LDME to 2.25kg, thats whats left in one of the bags, brings the OG up to 1.057, Ratio 0.555......That sounds more like my sort of bitterness level....



Theres also an option for 'add at end of boil', which is generally used in partial vol extract brewing...it's actually slightly buggy...in the brewsheet, it doesn't alter the BG at all, but in the main recipe itself (under the efficiency section) it does. As a matter of curiosity, I'll enter the recipe as given later tonight and compare results, if you want.

On the bitterness...0.55 is where I bitter my milds (I'm not a fan of bitter beer at all), but I think this might be better at 0.6-0.65, which is where I do my best bitters. Just a suggestion.


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## Pollux (7/11/08)

Would appreciate that muchly thanks butters...

I have altered it now



> Type: Extract
> Date: 9/11/2008
> Batch Size: 23.00 L
> Boil Size: 10.00 L
> ...




Although the brewsheet tells me to boil the kit for 60mins, basically pushing off any hop level that was in it to start with.....


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## buttersd70 (7/11/08)

Theres sfa hop flavour or aroma in the kit anyway, and the additions will more than make up for it. The bitterness will stay, though. I'll have a play later tonight in beersmith.


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## buttersd70 (7/11/08)

pollux, I got very different hop figures to you...are you set for pellets?

heres what I got.


TYPE: Extract
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 10.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.038 SG
Estimated Color: 29.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 36.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: - %
Boil Time: 30 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
1.00 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 35.1 % 
1.70 kg coopers real 23.4ibu (37.8 EBC) Extract 59.6 % 
0.10 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L (59.1 EBC) Grain 3.5 % 
0.05 kg Wheat, Roasted (Joe White) (1477.5 EBC) Grain 1.8 % 
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (30 min) Hops _*7.1 IBU*_ 
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (15 min) Hops _*4.6 IBU *_ 
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops - 


Mash Schedule: None
Total Grain Weight: 0.15 kg
----------------------------


Notes:
------
kit added at flameout, BG=1037

Note the difference on the hopping compared to yours....ahh, pennys dropped. You had _all _of the extract added post boil....I had the ldm boiled. Well, doing it that way gives you lower utilisation....in the case of upping the flavour on a kit, its not necessarily a bad thing. That way you can add more hop g/L, for flavour, and have less bitterness.

Given that you said you want 55% bugu...its not going to happen with this kit, at this grav. Even without the hops, the kit contributes 23.4IBU in 23L, which by itself is 60% bugu at 1039.....

You might want to try this instead:
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 10.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.042 SG
Estimated Color: 30.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 27.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: - %
Boil Time: 30 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
1.25 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 40.3 % 
1.70 kg coopers real 23.4ibu (37.8 EBC) Extract 54.8 % 
0.10 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L (59.1 EBC) Grain 3.2 % 
0.05 kg Wheat, Roasted (Joe White) (1477.5 EBC) Grain 1.6 % 
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (15 min) Hops 4.2 IBU 
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops - 


Mash Schedule: None
Total Grain Weight: 0.15 kg
----------------------------


Notes:
------
kit added at flameout, BG=1046 with ldm added at start of boil

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This gives 65.7% BUGU, which I think is more what you're after...a little higher in grav perhaps, but that will help balance the additional couple of bugu points.


Oh, and on pre boil gravity in the brewsheet....beersmith has a glitch. When you put something to be added end of boil, it calculates the hopping correctly on the actual BG, and in the case of partials, has the correct BG in the efficiency tool, but for some wierd reason, the BG shown on the brewsheet is with all extracts added.....if you change the type from extract to partial, and then click on efficiency, it will show you the actual projected BG correctly. Gotta love the computer world.......

Anyway, hope this is more to your liking.


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## Jase71 (8/11/08)

buttersd70 said:


> pollux, I got very different hop figures to you



He did state earlier that he was shithouse at maths.......


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## Pollux (8/11/08)

Butters my man, you have once again outdone yourself.... Thanking you kindly, although, if you could do me one more favour and post up the file for the recipe so I can open it here and have a look at it and see where I went wrong, be most appreciated...

Also, higher gravity is fine with me, as I said, was tempted to toss in the 2.25 that's still in the 3kg bag in my box of bits.....


Jase: Given my profession....my maths is pretty good, more applying maths to practical world that needs work......  That and learning all this on the run.....


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## Gavo (8/11/08)

Hey Pollux, have a good brew with the real ale and bits. 
Funny thing about the kits, I have a real ale ATM brewed with the simple kilo of dextrose. Still finishing it off, man when I first tasted that some months ago I thought it was great. Now after doing a few extracts it tastes boring and watery. I had one more tin left and I have done with it what you are doing now, beefed it up heaps. Used some Czech Saaz, EKG and that great wyeast 3787 giveaway. Its in the fermenter now and smells great.

Cheers and good brewing
Gavo. :icon_cheers:


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## Pollux (8/11/08)

Still thinking about bumping the gravity a little, just have to work out how to balance it with the hops, and seeing as though beersmith and I are having 'issues' with each other right now, it could be a bit tricky........ 

Just checked the contents of my HB box, fridge and freezer



> Light Dry Extract 5.25 kg
> Coopers Original Series - Real Ale 1.70 kg
> Crystal (Joe White) 1.00 kg
> Wheat, Roasted (Joe White) 0.50 kg
> ...



If I can't make anything good out of that, something is wrong.....


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## Gavo (8/11/08)

How much do you want to bump the gravity by? You may need to only make a minor change.

I did the real ale with 1.1 kg of LDME and 500grams of Caramunich and ended up with 1051. I kept my bitterness right down and added a 7gr of Saaz and 6 gr of EKG at 5 min and the same at flameout. 

Different style of course, but as I said the change may be minimal depending on the change in gravity.

Cheers
Gavo.

edit: It was a 20lt batch.


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## Pollux (8/11/08)

I could bump it to this level really.......



> 2.25 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 54.88 %
> 1.70 kg Coopers Original Series - Real Ale (37.8 EBC) Extract 41.46 %
> 0.10 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L (59.1 EBC) Grain 2.44 %
> 0.05 kg Wheat, Roasted (Joe White) (1477.5 EBC) Grain 1.22 %
> ...



I like a bit of body and malty sweetness......... 

BTW, like the creative way I included the IBUs from the Real Ale?? only way I could get it semi-accurately......Bitterness Ratio of 63.4%


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## Pollux (8/11/08)

For some reason I can't edit my post again so I'll make a new one....

I have buckets!!! 





One of which has already met my drill......


mmmm, holey.........


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## Jase71 (8/11/08)

Nice one. It will be very interesting to read about how you go with these, as I just eyed off about a hundred of the exact same pails at my place of work - dunno what they're filled with (but something to do with resurfacing an athletic stadium track - could be glue  ) but as soon as I see them emptied I'll be sussing them out


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## Gavo (8/11/08)

Looks like the attack of Mr Happy drill.  I read that In Palmers too, should work well, simple and effective. Good to see you didn't go right to the outside.

Oh by the way, I have a manifold.  




Had a look at the extra malt in beersmith. If you up the 15min addition of Cascade to 20grams you should be on the money.  

Cheers
Gavo.


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## Pollux (8/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> Nice one. It will be very interesting to read about how you go with these, as I just eyed off about a hundred of the exact same pails at my place of work - dunno what they're filled with (but something to do with resurfacing an athletic stadium track - could be glue  ) but as soon as I see them emptied I'll be sussing them out




Mine were previous filled with liquid malt, they have been washed and still smell malty.........mmmmmm.......

Gavo: Shininess  I'll have a look in beersmith and see what my numbers come out at......


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## Pollux (9/11/08)

Well, it's in the damn fermenter now..... 

End recipe was



> Amount Item Type % or IBU
> 1.25 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 30.52 % - Flame out
> 1.00 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 24.32 % - Start of boil
> 1.70 kg Coopers Original Series - Real Ale [Boil for 1 min] Extract 41.51 % -Flame out
> ...




Had some friends around for lunch, the husband of the couple also does HB, although K+K (Coopers Dark Ale + Coopers brewing sugar @ 27deg), got him to help with everything.....

He was shocked at the cost of my batch compared to his, but when I gave him a glass of one I did a few months back (Coopers C.blonde+BE1+500g LDME +1kg honey in total) he was most impressed......

Not sure I'll convert him just yet, but I'm working on it......


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## Gavo (9/11/08)

Good work Pollux, lets see cost vs taste, taste wins. Don't forget to let us know how it goes.

Cheers
Gavo.


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## buttersd70 (9/11/08)

Pollux said:


> if you could do me one more favour and post up the file for the recipe so I can open it here and have a look at it and see where I went wrong, be most appreciated...



somehow missed this thread the other night (heavy drinking brew day probably had something to do with this  )
heres the file that I created at the time of my prior post - I haven't made any changes to it since then, so compare it to your original, and then have a play with it.
View attachment 22407


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## Bizier (9/11/08)

Jase71 said:


> You referring to the place in the Marrickville Community Centre ? I've been considering popping down there for a while to get a whole bunch of plastic pails that I saw there a year ago. Need some for gardening stuff storage (soil etc) but they would be bloody handy as a secondary as well. I'de imagine if they have them down there theyde sell for a dollar or two each......



I'd be scared using these from Reverse Garbage (I live about 3 mins walk away) there is little way of knowing what they had in them previously. I got one for my GF ages ago as a compost unit, but that is about as far as I'd go... And... the thought has crossed my mind a few times to use them for beer. Just get the $16 bunning BWS plastics ones, they are great for beer.


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## Pollux (9/11/08)

Gavo: My favourite point was where I pulled out the 2.25 LDME onto the bench and he asked, "Is that all going in?" At which point I went, "Yeap, $18 worth"........Then he asked about batch price......$38 odd.......ehhhhh, still cheaper than buying commercial.....

Butters: Thanks man, will look at once sober myself............


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## Gavo (9/11/08)

Pollux said:


> Gavo: My favourite point was where I pulled out the 2.25 LDME onto the bench and he asked, "Is that all going in?" At which point I went, "Yeap, $18 worth"........Then he asked about batch price......$38 odd.......ehhhhh, still cheaper than buying commercial.....



Yep all good fun and way better than commercial.


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## Pollux (10/11/08)

mmmmmm, I love the way my drunken brain works......

I just started to wonder....Could I do AG in a tiny little two bedroom apartment??


Then the ideas started to flow, buy an urn off evilbay, perfect for HLT...Throw in a cheap esky, and then comes the fun part, the boil....

I wonder, could I bring a full batch to the boil if I had a pot wide enough to straddle all four gas burners on the stove??


----------



## buttersd70 (10/11/08)

Pollux said:


> I just started to wonder....Could I do AG in a tiny little two bedroom apartment??
> 
> 
> I wonder, could I bring a full batch to the boil if I had a pot wide enough to straddle all four gas burners on the stove??



Of course you can. I dare you to. If the missus complains, blame it on me. Ex wives are my specialty.
Just 2 should be enough. :lol:


----------



## Pollux (10/11/08)

Ahhhh, but if I show her me saving money doing AG vs Partials???


That said, she got her job offer letter today for her graduate position starting next year..... 

This makes me a happy man.....


On the topic, I was looking at this 80L al pot.... Need to find the measuring tape tomorrow (i.e. once sober) and measure the stove size and clearance for the overhead cupboards....


----------



## Gavo (10/11/08)

Pollux said:


> mmmmmm, I love the way my drunken brain works......
> 
> I just started to wonder....Could I do AG in a tiny little two bedroom apartment??
> 
> ...



And just think of the loss to evaporation. :huh: However what about a small AG, I was looking at a recipe in the DB and found a recipe that looked low on the grain bill until I saw the batch size, 11 litre. Got me thinking, and now my brain hurts. Small batch to see what all the fuss is about and the chance to try more beer styles. 

More work for smaller but tastier return, Yes.
An intro to AG, Yes.
Able to manage in the kitchen, yes.

food/beer for thought. ^_^ 

Cheers
Gavo


----------



## Pollux (10/11/08)

mmmmmmmmm, evap, ugly idea......


Small batch is tempting I must say, might consider once I have spare fermenter......


Still, I reckon the good old stove can handle a big boil, I had 11L going in a 15L pot straddling one big burner and one little one the other day.....


----------



## Gavo (10/11/08)

Ahh, nothing like a three ring wok burner on my five burner gas stove 9 litres to the boil in less than 15 min. By the way good link for the pot I like the 40 litre Robinox. Postage to rural QLD. <_< 

Cheers
Gavo.


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## buttersd70 (10/11/08)

:lol: 

Strong, are you, young luke, but wary of the dark side be.... :lol:


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## Pollux (10/11/08)

mmmmm, perhaps you should see my stove........

it's old, like the dials have NO markings, it's all guess work, the oven is lit by a manual sparker operated by a handle inside the oven, same for the grille, the stove is done with a lighter.....

Only reason I can see me having trouble once I am setup will be the missus "You can buy yourself a big arse pot and drill a hole in the side?? Then you can buy me new saucepans....."

Only fair I guess.....

EDIT: Gavo, got link to that recipe so I may observe it??

EDIT part duex: I just checked where said place is.....Roughly a 10min drive from here ........Think I just found my xmas pressie....


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## Gavo (10/11/08)

Pollux said:


> mmmmm, perhaps you should see my stove........
> 
> it's old, like the dials have NO markings, it's all guess work, the oven is lit by a manual sparker operated by a handle inside the oven, same for the grille, the stove is done with a lighter.....



:lol: Had a stove like that in my last house. 


Pollux said:


> Only reason I can see me having trouble once I am setup will be the missus "You can buy yourself a big arse pot and drill a hole in the side?? Then you can buy me new saucepans....."



Offer to drill hole in the side of her pots too. :lol: Easy way to drain the veggies.

I wish you guys would stop putting ideas in my head. Now trying to think of which base malt/grain to buy for my first partial that WILL be happening in the next few weeks and the next few after that. ^_^ 

Cheers
Gavo.

Edit: No can't find the recipe, I knew I should have saved the link. Not really important as you could scale a recipe to suit.


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## Pollux (10/11/08)

Hehehehe, I'm in your head...... 

I just need a tap and some insulation for my bucket in bucket and I am set.....Already have the recipe and needed order with HBS set in beersmith.....


And afterall, my current 15L pot can be hers, hell, I have already cooked an 8L batch of spag bol sauce in it......


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## Gavo (11/11/08)

Pollux see link below
MVZoom's 11l Batch first AG
A Topic started by BeeJay

Cheers
Gavo.


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## Pollux (11/11/08)

And I have a couple of spare foodgrade buckets that I could throw a tap at and some clingwrap for mini fermenters too......


I so can't wait till I can get to a hardware store without my daughter in tow.....


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## Pollux (13/11/08)

Right, in the name of keeping all my crap in one thread and seeking advice again...

I built this recipe myself, based upon what I currently have in stock....This is to go into a fermenter once one is free......



> \Type: Extract
> Date: 17/11/2008
> Batch Size: 23.00 L
> Brewer: Tim
> ...




Completely open to comments.....I also have 65gm of Cascade in the freezer if I wanted to go cross Atlantic....


The real issue now is what the hell can I do with the 2.25kg of dex sitting in my box of stuff? Will take AGES to use it all for bulk priming...


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## Gavo (13/11/08)

Looks good to me, But I am only a few extracts ahead of you. Punched this one into Beersmith myself and got almost identical figures. What style are you after? It looks like and English special/best, therefore are you wanting all of that 0 min addition as it would add a fair hop aroma. I have just done one of these using EKG an NS hops at 60 and 30 min. If I do it again I do a small addition at 15 min to balance the malt a little more without adding a lot of hop aroma. 

Cheers
Gavo

By the way I am buying a 60 litre Stock Pot from Ross next week.


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## buttersd70 (13/11/08)

15g for a f/o is fine imho....don't forget, an english yeast will subdue hops to a degree anyway. Personally, I would change the 30 min addition to 20min, and just up the quantity enough to maintain IBU as-is.....20min is optimum for flav, it starts to degrade and break down after that. Oh, and swap the f/o from fuggle to ekg imho. Its a better late hop. Keep the 50/50 at the 15, though, that works really well.

wait...just noticed....15g of _both _at f/o. Keep the ekg, drop the fuggle for the f/o. 

Just 2c


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## Jase71 (13/11/08)

Pollux said:


> The real issue now is what the hell can I do with the 2.25kg of dex sitting in my box of stuff? Will take AGES to use it all for bulk priming...



I have pretty much the same weight of dextrose as well ! And considering I just arrived home with 1.5kg of LDME for my extract brew this weekend, I'm in the same boat, mate. But I'm going to add some dex to mine just for the hell of it. FYI Pollux if you need a local source of LDME, K-Mart Burwood (couple of train stops from you, yes?) sells the stuff for $5.50 per 1/2kg, which is $1.50 cheaper than Coles...... don't go rushing down there just yet though, I cleared their shelf of the stuff.


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## Bribie G (13/11/08)

Pollux said:


> I just started to wonder....Could I do AG in a tiny little two bedroom apartment??
> 
> 
> Then the ideas started to flow, buy an urn off evilbay,



40L Electric urn + bag = Brew in a bag (BIAB) which is what I am going to do in 3 weeks time. 
Heaps of people doing it.





Edit: still use the dex, maybe 300g per brew. Commercial brewers put sugars in their worts and, if you are going for an Australian style lager, it will be 'true to style'. I've been sneaking some dex into recent partial brews and no problem.


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## Pollux (13/11/08)

Jase: I get mine for $8.17/kg from an online HBS............so no worries with that.....reminds me, must place an order soon....

Thanks for the advice re:hopping there gavo/butters, taken onboard. Although your post seemed a little confusing for a second there butters, 

Should I read it as

@ 60mins: 15g each of EKG and Fuggles
@ 20mins: 20g each of EKG and Fuggles (This was the nearest round number that gave close enough IBUs in beersmith, still not a bad ratio of 59.5%)
@ F/O: 15g EKG only.

Just want to make sure my beer flooded brain is working right...


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## buttersd70 (13/11/08)

Pollux said:


> Although your post seemed a little confusing for a second there butters,



I had just finished putting a brew down, and was celebrating my triumphs, so I'm not surprised. :lol: 



Pollux said:


> Should I read it as
> 
> @ 60mins: 15g each of EKG and Fuggles
> @ 20mins: 20g each of EKG and Fuggles (This was the nearest round number that gave close enough IBUs in beersmith, still not a bad ratio of 59.5%)
> ...



Yeah, thats it. For the 20, using 2 hops gives a good 'fulness' to the hop flavour, what one lacks the other makes up for imho. Fuggle is considered (by some) to be too grassy on f/o (i don't necessarily agree), but regardless, EKG is superior for aroma. For the 60 min, it doesn't matter one way or the other. 
So what you have there looks like a winner. If you decide you want to up the IBU a little (although I probably wouldn't), make any further changes on the 60 minute addition only....that way the flavour and aroma amounts are locked in and set.


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## Pollux (13/11/08)

Right, it's locked in now....

Although, I did take a page from the bribie handbook....and will be chucking in 300g of dex after the boil....

I figure it's 10% of the amount of malt extract afterall, so no major difference....


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## buttersd70 (13/11/08)

When looking at hop ratios, either BUGU or BV, if you're using dex, leave it out of the equations when doing the ratios, because it ferments out fully with no residual sweetness to offset the hopping; ie if the malt component comes to 1048, and you hop it to 60%BUGU, when you add dex and up the grav to say 1052 (for example), don't up the hops to maintain 60% of 1052....leave it as 60% of 1048.....

if this makes sense.


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## Pollux (13/11/08)

I get ya....Kind of....... 

I understand, i set my recipes first, balance the hops and get my BUGU worked out, then put the dex in......

Once I have this pile down to under 1.5kg, then I'll just drop it anyways...


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## buttersd70 (13/11/08)

Pollux said:


> I get ya....Kind of.......
> 
> I understand, i set my recipes first, balance the hops and get my BUGU worked out, then put the dex in......
> 
> Once I have this pile down to under 1.5kg, then I'll just drop it anyways...



Yep, with the dex in at the end of the boil, or into the fermenter itself.

Same thing applies with kits and bits...if you use bugu, it's only relevant for the gravity that results from sugars that leave residual sweetness. Hops=flavour/bitterness, and you balance with sugars that leave flavour/sweetness at the _end _of fermentation...dex and matodextrin add alcohol and body respectively, neither contributes either flavour or residual sweetness at the end of the fermentation - so as a result, neither one will balance a bitter tin.


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## Pollux (5/12/08)

Right, lets bring this rather helpful thread back from the grave....

I was testing out some recipe ideas in Beersmith earlier...

Tell me, in my attempt to clear out older stock, have I gone insane??



> Recipe Specifications --------------------------
> Batch Size: 23.00 L
> Boil Size: 10.00 L
> Estimated OG: 1.064 SG
> ...



Think of it as a trans-atlantic devil brew....I can see this either being a great idea, or something undrinkable, and I can't find anything on here regarding combining these hops....That may be a sign.


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## buttersd70 (5/12/08)

Fuggle and EKG is a marriage made in heaven...as for the cascade, It should go well. Not overly familiar with this hop, but I know it goes in combo with willamette a lot, and that is a fuggle variety....so you have earthy, grassy, and citrus all together...can't see any issue.


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## Pollux (5/12/08)

Right is locked in then.....


That will leave just 85gm of Cascade in the freezer...

I need some more malt.


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