# 14th Century Bouchet / Burnt Honey Mead



## mr_wibble

Chelsea has a write-up of brewing of making a 14th century mead over at Game of Brews.



> _"The smell of this mead in progress is awesome. The whole house smells of toffee and burnt sugar, and, inexplicably, brownies, and the delicious aroma lasts for days. Coming home to that smell is a joy."_


I bought a shipload of honey the other day to make another batch of JAO Mead, but after reading this I might have to make two batches.

The "slightly bitter" flavour profile concerns me a bit though, but I guess that could balance the sweetness.


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## TimT

Ever since Dave posted about bochet a few weeks ago I've wanted to try it, but I'm constrained by wanting to keep the original honey character - the resins and odours and smells from the original plants, and the mixture of different sugars, which would mostly be lost in the boil. I think what I may try sometime will be a version in which only a small portion of the honey is set aside, boiled, and caramelised, so we get a mixture of both worlds. I love toffee and caramel flavours but I'm not sure I'd be able to justify doing this to several litres of honey....!


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## Mardoo

Same boat here. I'm going to have a go at something like 75 honey/25 caramelised since caramel flavors are so easily picked up by the tongue. Maybe Airgead would have some ideas.


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## Airgead

Sorry guys... never tried one of these.

You could try making a small amount of burned honey and adding to water to get an idea of the taste... blend with regular honey water and see what proportion you like.


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## Dave70

Nice one.
Time permitting I'm giving this a go on the weekend. I've had a washed jar of 1388 sitting around so I'll chuck half of that in and see how it goes. 

And is it actually true the process attracts bees?

One of my neighbors has a few hives.

Some of his pets stopped by to say hello last year. 

Just sayin..


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## TimT

_is it actually true the process attracts bees?_

Quite possible. The heat will throw lots of smells into the air, and bees will go straight for honey smells.

I was waxing a few cheeses the other week with beeswax and all of a sudden the hive in our backyard decided to relocate to our house.

They should be quite friendly as it's not in the context of you robbing their hive or anything like that.


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## Airgead

I have heard (from a beekeeper) that boiling or burning honey will attract bees from miles around because they think the hive is on fire (or the tree that the hive is in is on fire) so they will try to save the honey to relocate to a new hive.


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## Yeastfridge

Mr Wibble said:


> I bought a shipload of honey the other day...


Where can I buy myself a shipload of honey?


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## Mardoo

Yeastfridge said:


> Where can I buy myself a shipload of honey?


Where are you? Can't see as Im in the app.


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## mr_wibble

Yeastfridge said:


> Where can I buy myself a shipload of honey?


I'm fairly sure you're not being serious, but I bought it in a 3 litre bucket from the producer.
That was at the Nundle Gold Festival markets over easter.


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## TimT

OT (sort of), but related to the subject of beekeeping neighbours, this story gave me a laugh.


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## motch02

http://www.clayridge.com.au/honeyrange.html

These guys are quite good and free delivery on orders over 3kg


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## Airgead

Still 10 bucks a kilo though. You can get better deals if you shop around.


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## mr_wibble

$10 a kilo? I paid $18 for a 3kg bucket (IIRC)

Anyway, i made this today. Started with stringybark honey, which is a bit dark to begin with.
It boiled and boiled, I stirred and stirred. Suddenly i smelt, not burnt... but roasted toffee.
Off with the heat, and stand back when you drop those first few glugs of water into the boiling honey ... If you're a nudist, well geeze, you better be careful.

OG 1.101 quite a choclatey brown colour. Smells great.
I ordered the Grains of Paradise and Long Pepper from Herbies spices

But i'll give the Safale S-04 a week or so first

Edit: added some yeast nutrient too


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## mr_wibble

This is a weird thing.

First of all during the boil, there was some kind of precipitate. I dunno what it is, but it came from the honey.

It's been fermenting now for 5 days, I checked on it this morning, and there's a lot of action in there - the floaty stuff is swirling around quite vigorously - never seen beer do that (nor JAO actually).

Smells great too.



Edit: quite, not quiet


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## TimT

Some honey just has gunk in it. One of our meads came from honey we took from very very old frames in the hive that had obviously been used for lots of different things over the years; when I pitched the yeast in it the must was closer to brown than the classic orange/yellow! It cleared up but still has particles floating about in it. I dubbed it 'Pollenaceous mead' on the somewhat hopeful assumption that the majority of the particulate matter was pollen.


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## Mardoo

Not pollen, bee dicks  . (Disclaimer for those who don't know: Worker bees are female and constitute the vast majority of the bees you see. Then there's the queen. Then there's the males, who are pretty much only there to mate. They die after mating. The ones who don't get to mate get thrown out of the hive in the winter to die. So it goes.)

Most unfiltered honeys will throw gunk when you caramelize them. It's not an issue. You can get rid of it. I don't.

TimT back when I kept bees I got a black honey at the end of the season from a hive I hadn't touched. It was quite acidic and tasted like molasses. Stout mead???


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## TimT

Acidic molasses honey. That's a poser. Going to my bee group on Monday, maybe they know! Maybe they weren't getting it from nectar at all, but some other source of sugar, which might explain why it was already quite acidic.

Remember this? "M&M’s blamed for turning honey of French bees blue and green" 

As you were, ladies and gentlemen....


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## Airgead

Mardoo said:


> TimT back when I kept bees I got a black honey at the end of the season from a hive I hadn't touched. It was quite acidic and tasted like molasses. Stout mead???


I made a mead once with honey from a neglected hive. The beekeeper I bought it from inherited the hive from an old bloke who had died. he hadn't looked after them for a year or so and the honey was, as you say black, acidic and like molasses. I took one taste and grabbed the entire 15 kg he had. 

I made a couple of meads out of it and it came out deep amber/gold. Took a few years to get good but boy it was fantastic once it had aged out. Was foul when young but 5 years later...

Cheers
Dave


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## TimT

We've shrunk the hive down to two boxes for winter and are in for another glut of honey. I'm keen to give bochet a go, probably with the sort of plan I discussed before - burning a bit of the honey and mixing it in with a larger amount of unburned honey.

Mostly discussion about burning honey has centred around the *length* of time you boil the honey for; I wonder if there is information online about the *temperature* you need to bring the honey too? Temperature control can be fairly important when you're dealing with hot sugars. I don't imagine it would be an area brewers would shy away from either, temperature control is kind of our thang....

My guess is the interesting stuff will happen around 150-175 degrees - which my cookbook on fudge tells me are those temps at which sugar goes from the 'hard crack stage' to the stage at which you produce caramlised sugar and the syrup begins to change colour and burnt notes begin to enter into the flavour. 

Indeed I think the temperature is the measure you want to be relying on - not the time. Since cooking time would vary a bit depending on how much honey you're boiling, in what pot, etc, while you will always get a predictable result if you keep a close eye on the temperature you heat your sugar too.


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## mr_wibble

Temperature? Hard crack?! Degrees?!?

I was looking for those smokey bubbles, but smelt them before I saw them.
It was 14th century old-school that brew day.

Edit: well, except for the gas cooktop, stainless pot, and black death.


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## Mardoo

Absolutely. Temperature is the key. Unfortunately the types of transformations we're interested in are mostly outside the scope of the majority of candy making, so you may not find a lot of literature on it outside of brewing circles. If you're remotely serious about caramelizing honeys (Yeah Baby!) or making candi sugar (or candy for that matter) you need to get a good candy thermometer. You don't have to spend a lot, but go to a decent cooking store, not the $2 shop.


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## TimT

Good point about most thermometers not being good for these temperatures - our thermometer which I've used successful for anything from cheesemaking to brewing to making fudge probably wouldn't be good for this exercise, alas. It only goes up to just under 120 degrees celsius.


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## jphowman

My bochet just came out of the secondary. Fantastic flavours, very similar to a port. 

I boiled the entire load of honey. I don't understand the concern about losing the honey aromatic, this it not a mead to showcase those but a mead to showcase the wonderful caramelised honey flavours. Unless the flower aromatic complement the caramel I would think they would be out of place.

I boiled my honey on the smallest burner on the stove for 60 min.
The colour consistently darkened through the hour and somewhere between 50 min and 60 min a slight acrid ness crept in which I thought ruined the flavour. The temperature at this stage was approaching 150c.

I will be making another one but will limit the boil to 50min.


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## TimT

I hear you on the caramel flavours and the possibility they may not go with the floral aromatics, etc. Maybe. It would vary from mead to mead, I think. (Might be a good idea doing a bochet braggot, actually - I think those burnt toffee/caramel flavours would go brilliantly in a stout, porter, or an old). But the other thing about boiling honey - it really changes and denatures the sugars. Weirdly, apparently, I hear it makes them *less* fermentable so it gives them a residual sweetness. But in the process I suspect you might lose some of the other distinctive flavours you get from those complex sugars being slowly fermented by the yeast? (Dunno. Speculating here).

I guess my grand conclusion is 'um yeah sort of'.....

Going to do a partial bochet mead tomorrow!


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## mr_wibble

How long did you ferment for Franks ?

I haven't checked mine today, but a few days ago (a week in) it was still very active, bits of <what?> swirling around and everything.

I don't really want to check the SG, because that's a waste of ~100ml, and there's only ~4 litres of it.


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## Airgead

refractometer dude... Only need one drop for a sample.


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## TimT

I almost only ever do in small bunches, 4-5 L at a time and I find one or two samples never sets me back too much. One at the start for an initial taste test and SG test, and one at the end - when all other signs of fermentation have died down and I'm going to bottle. If you don't check on it regularly how are you going to know how it's going?


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## jphowman

TimT said:


> I hear you on the caramel flavours and the possibility they may not go with the floral aromatics, etc. Maybe. It would vary from mead to mead, I think. (Might be a good idea doing a bochet braggot, actually - I think those burnt toffee/caramel flavours would go brilliantly in a stout, porter, or an old). But the other thing about boiling honey - it really changes and denatures the sugars. Weirdly, apparently, I hear it makes them *less* fermentable so it gives them a residual sweetness. But in the process I suspect you might lose some of the other distinctive flavours you get from those complex sugars being slowly fermented by the yeast? (Dunno. Speculating here).
> 
> I guess my grand conclusion is 'um yeah sort of'.....
> 
> Going to do a partial bochet mead tomorrow!


I think there is already a commercial braggot out there. I drank St Peter's Honey Porter years ago and was amazed at the taste. Exactly like burnt marshmallows. I now suspect they may 'bochet' their honey before fermentation.

Mr Wibble:

Pitching rate was 2g/L of 71B. I also did a cyser of similar gravity but pitched 1g/L. I've been upping the rate over that last few batches. I think the higher pitching rate produces a better mead. The bochet has been the only mead so far that is drinkable straight out of the secondary (though the others have improved with age).

I did SNA for this.

0 hours - 1.128
72 hours - 1.123
102 hours - 1.077
174 hours - 1.068
200 hours - 1.054
224 hours - 1.054
248 hours - 1.049
296 hours - 1.031
Secondary - 1.027


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## TimT

Putting mine down now. I only set aside a small portion of honey as was my plan; the rest I just got usual style - soaking our wax that we had previously crushed to remove the residual honey that was trapped inside. I find this autumn honey to be quite fructosy and a little bit acidic; the taste reminds me of pear juice. So with the burnt honey added maybe it'll make a burnt honey and pear mead! Then again, I am boiling some bears right now for some burnt honey and pear dessert....
When mixed together - the original must and the burned honey must - the taste becomes more caramel like.

SG - about 1.104.

I only boiled my honey for about forty minutes but by that time it was taking on quite toffee-like colours and smells. So there you go. This one is going to be yum, I reckon


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## mr_wibble

Airgead said:


> refractometer dude... Only need one drop for a sample.


I started to read up on the conversion, found this: read this: http://www.thebeginningbrewer.com/tag/refractometer/

I'm gone from loving my refractometer to despising its inaccuracies.

So, so I need to use the Brix side, but divide the reading by (approx) 1.04 to account for Wort Vs Sugar


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## Airgead

Or just use the converter tool in beersmith.


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## TimT

Ha. I did mine last night to avoid the issue of bees flocking to the kitchen. Now this morning I wander into my study where it's fermenting and I see ants all over the demijohn, attracted by the toffee smells coming out of the fermenter.


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## mr_wibble

I looked at mine again Wednesday night, nearly 3 weeks in and it's still semi-vigorously swirling bits around the top.

Something's not right.


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## TimT

What's it taste like?

What was your starting gravity and your gravity now? What with the added difficulty yeast has in digesting honey sugars, fermentation in meads can have a long lag time after the initial peak ferment. Add to that the fact meads can have a much higher starting gravity than beers so most yeasts will take longer anyway.

Any temp fluctuations that could alter the yeast behaviour?

I wouldn't necessarily leap to the conclusion it's infected - it does sound like you've still got yeast activity.

A week and a half in and mine's still quite active.


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## Dave70

Here we go.

2 kg Mudgee honey boiled gently for about half an hour. Not as dark as some but I was happy with the flavor. Topped up with 5L of water and reduced to around 4.7.
To make things more interesting, added 200g of amber candi sugar I had sitting in the freezer and pitched a cup of 1214 slurry left over from a Dubbel which seemed excited to be there.
Weighed in at a healthy 1.100. 

Purdy..


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## TimT

That's quite some bubbleator you've got going there Dave... Multiple bubble chambers and all. The doublebubbletroublebubbleator?

Mead looks nice too and all....


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## Mardoo

Bit of yeast there too...impressive.


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## Dave70

TimT said:


> That's quite some bubbleator you've got going there Dave... Multiple bubble chambers and all. The doublebubbletroublebubbleator?
> 
> Mead looks nice too and all....


It bubbles in a fairly stable 2/4 signature actually.



Mardoo said:


> Bit of yeast there too...impressive.


That shot was taken yesterday arvo and this morning the foam - erm, _krausen_ - is about midway up the handle. I think the way everything's whizzing around in there, yeasty bits and so on are settling against the sides of the glass making it look like a yeast monster. Like I said, only pitched a cup o slurry.


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## Vini2ton

I had a vienna lager that bubbled in 3/4 time.


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## Mardoo

As I remember it was 6/4... h34r:


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## MightyLolz

Hi all, I've only just brewed my first batch of mead using JAO and was wanting to give this a crack. However, I'm having some trouble converting the figures especially the amount of yeast. Would any one kindly share their converted formula for a 5L demijohn? Also how long do you leave it in the first demijohn before racking?
Sorry for all the noob questions, this is my first post!


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## MightyLolz

Woops, I've got my conversions wrong, looks like I'm making 3.8L and need a bigger pot!


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## TimT

What sort of yeast are you using for your 4-5 L batch? If it's a dry yeast, 1-2 teaspoons should do it.

If it's a wet yeast, up to you how much you pitch; given most brew stores sell yeast in sachets that have enough for the standard 23 L batch, I'm assuming you could just split it into five equal bits, fairly safely - but if you added more it wouldn't do any harm either.

These days I normally err on the side of adding more yeast.

You've pretty much got to let the yeast sort it out for itself though.


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## MightyLolz

I think I'll aim for 4L, and I was thinking I'd go a dry yeast as I've never used wet yeast before. So maybe 1.5 teaspoons? But I'll head into the local brew store and see what they have, I only ordered the spices today so I've got a little time to plan. Still confused on the racking part too, so more research required.


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## mr_wibble

I pitched a whole pack of US05. 

This is probably quite an over-pitch, but this gravity ~1.100 is a high-pressure environment for your yeastie boys (tech note: they're all girls apparently).

But a pack must be pretty close to two teaspoons anyway, so TimT is on the money.


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## TimT

All girls, really? Wonder how yeast sex happens.


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## Mardoo

They bud, Bud.


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## MightyLolz

Mr Wibble what stage is your batch at now? Also I think you're right there, I've heard you're better off having more yeast then not enough. At what point did you rack?


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## mr_wibble

&nbsp;


MightyLolz said:


> Mr Wibble what stage is your batch at now? Also I think you're right there, I've heard you're better off having more yeast then not enough. At what point did you rack?


&nbsp;

I haven't really done anything with it.

I'll try to put it onto the spices this weekend. I figure it has a whole lot of fermenting to do, and last week there was still quote some activity. 
I am concerned about the yeast dying off and giving meaty/vegemity flavours (yeast autolysis), but it's going to have to hang in there. The JAO mead does not seem to suffer from 3+ months on the yeast-cake.

cheers,
-kt


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## MightyLolz

So that'll be about the one month mark you're adding spices. But by the sounds of it you're not intending to rack it in to another demijohn? Are you aiming for 3 months on the yeast cake? Because I was wondering how long you let if ferment before racking and adding spices


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## TimT

I don't think it matters when you add spices so much - the important thing is to just wait until the yeast has done the main job and there's no more rapid churning of the wine, or production of gases by the yeast. In the rapidity of the primary fermentation a lot of spicy flavours and fragrances can get lost.


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## MightyLolz

So how do you tell when fermentation is done? Also thanks for all the help guys


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## TimT

Keep an eye on it. The bubbles going through the airlock will slow down significantly, from a pace of about one a second (or more) to more like one a minute.... or an hour.

Also, the mead will clear up significantly, if there's a yeast cloud it will fall away, there'll be a build up of sediment on the bottom, the gravity readings of samples of the mead on your hydrometer will be at zero (or very close too).... basically, you'll get several signs telling you the main fermenting is done. It should be pretty obvious.

EDIT: With bochet I'm told there's more unfermentable sugars.... so the gravity reading might be a bit higher than zero. (Though with mead the final gravity reading can go below zero).


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## MightyLolz

I haven't yet used a hydrometer, I'm reluctant giving how much of the brew I'd have to use to sample it, or once I've taken the sample can I return it to the main brew? I've heard conflicting views on that point. I'll keep an eye out for these other tips though!


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## TimT

Oh I usually do batches about the same size as yours; you only really need to do one sample at the start and one at the end, which won't impact on the brew significantly if you don't return them (you pretty much just need a tube full: not much). And of course I do taste tests afterwards too, so the samples aren't wasted.... I'd imagine a lot of mead makers do it in similarly small batches, given the commercial price of honey.

It doesn't even matter if you do the hydrometer test in the tube it comes with or in the fermenter itself; so long as there'll be enough liquid for the hydrometer to stand in the reading will be the same. (Though you might want to draw off a sample if it's in one of those narrow neck fermenters because I don't like your chances at getting the hydrometer out again.... in one piece, anyway). Basically, it's a very useful piece of equipment.


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## barls

Airgead said:


> I made a mead once with honey from a neglected hive. The beekeeper I bought it from inherited the hive from an old bloke who had died. he hadn't looked after them for a year or so and the honey was, as you say black, acidic and like molasses. I took one taste and grabbed the entire 15 kg he had.
> 
> I made a couple of meads out of it and it came out deep amber/gold. Took a few years to get good but boy it was fantastic once it had aged out. Was foul when young but 5 years later...
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


still have a bottle of this


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## Airgead

barls said:


> still have a bottle of this


Really? I don't... drank it all a few years ago. That must be pushing 10 years old now. You'd better drink it... I want to know what its like.


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## barls

its in my front fridge.
definitely will drink it but need the right mood. maybe after the renos are done and i can celebrate something being done right.


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## MightyLolz

Jumped in and brewed a 4L batch! Was surprised how dark it's come out, but it smells pretty good. Had a tiny taste too and it wasn't half bad, once its a bit cooler I'll take a reading with the hydrometer.


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## mr_wibble

Looks good MightyLolz.

I'm about to decant mine onto spices.

5.7 grams of fresh ginger, long pepper, grains of paradise
1.4 grams of cloves.

I think my scales only resolve in increments of a gram.

I'm using the original recipe spice amounts, despite Chelsea (from Game of Brews) indicating she thought it a bit too much.
I used quite a dark honey (stringybark from Tamworth), so I feel like it needs something a bit more robust.
(NOTE: I'm acting out of ignorance here, just doing what I feel like, so don't take this as gospel)

cheers,
-kt


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## MightyLolz

Thanks,
With the spices I figured I go with 70% of what the recipe stated, the honey I used was Orange Blossom. 
But using less, I can leave them in a bit longer and just judge by my taste. So essentially, I shall also be winging it! 
Two queries though:
First: I used a hydrometer for the first time and the reading was initially 1074, but then I took another reading using the same sample cooled down and it changed to 1084. Any thoughts on this? I wouldn't know if temperature affects a reading.
Secondly: A combination of over excitement and messed up temperature reading meant I ended up adding the yeast to quite a warm mix. About 30 degrees which seemed way too high, so I put the demijohn in a cold water bath, got the temp down to low 20's pretty quick. However I'm thinking I may have damaged or killed the yeast, fermentation seems to be happening but at a very slow rate. I'm observing one bubble through the airlock about every 1.5 - 2 minutes while both JAO brews on the same heat pad are showing a lot more action. Should I be concerned/ chuck more yeast in?
Any thoughts would be appreciated. 

Cheers!


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## mr_wibble

Temperature most certainly does effect a hydrometer reading.

From what I've read 30C pitching temp is not ideal, but should not be too hot to cause a major problem.
Warmer pitching temperatures leads to the production of a more esters [Palmer]. But in a burnt honey mead I don't think you'd notice.
And you cooled it down quickly anyway.

-kt


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## mr_wibble

Ok here's my problem:

I noticed when I decanted the mead onto the spices that the volume was only ~3 litres. (decanted into a flask).
I know I lost a very small amount to trub, but I must have only had maybe 3.2 litres initially.
(Those 1 gallon demijohns must be 3.8 litres full to the brim)

Do I add some cooled boiled water back to 3.7 litres ?
Leave it ?


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## TimT

_Do I add some cooled boiled water back to 3.7 litres ?_

You could do that - it would be a good opportunity to get in more spice flavours and aromas that you would normally find it difficult to get into the wine (because they'd be lost during the ferment or the boil). Part of the water you add could be a home made essence, or it could be spiced with a cooking essence you got from the shops. I plan to do similar when I bulk prime.

You'll get a weaker alcohol, of course, but meads have very high alcohol typically so you can sacrifice a bit of the alcohol percentage I would have thought.


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## mr_wibble

Yeah, I think I'll nudge it back up to 3.5 litres.
That should just restore it to the original 4 litres minus the trub.


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## TimT

Mr Wibble - I recall you were a tad concerned when your bochet was still fermenting three weeks in - I take it everything turned out all right then?

All my brews are fermenting slowly at the moment, including my bochet which is still blurping away - it must be about three weeks old now, too. Cold temps would do it, I reckon.


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## mr_wibble

Yeah, it seemed to settle down on the 4th week.

It wasn't so much that it was still fermenting, I was a bit concerned about it spending too long on the trüb (although JAO spends months on it).
Although I was surprised to see active fermentation going for so long.

I did a belgian once (my 4th brew or suchlike) that had a bad autolysis problem and I had to tip it. So I'm a bit paranoid about it.

We've been getting daily temps of just under 20 so far, so the fermentation should be good, i hope.


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## TimT

I ventured a sample and a taste of mine last night - it's about four weeks old though still fermentation going on. SG down to 14 and I think it wants to go more. I think it could definitely do with maturing and now I'm thinking of what spices could be good for it. I reckon orange peel, cloves, and vanilla.


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## mr_wibble

Did you ever end up finding a source for vanilla bean pods ?

I've been toying with the idea of chucking some oak chips in to my robust porter for woody / vanilla notes.

I ordered my long-pepper and grains of paradise from Herbies spices.
The long peppers smell great, obviously peppery, but kind of fruity too, there's heaps going on in there.

I'd warrant Herbies has vanilla pods.


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## TimT

Yep, an organic fruit and veg store down the road in Northcote. They have a jar of them in the herbs section. Same place I got my gentian from.


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## Dave70

MightyLolz said:


> Jumped in and brewed a 4L batch! Was surprised how dark it's come out, but it smells pretty good. Had a tiny taste too and it wasn't half bad, once its a bit cooler I'll take a reading with the hydrometer.


Did it taste a little like sherry? I racked mine to a second demijohn Tuesday night via a racking cane and inevitably wound up with some in my gob.
You must have cooked the buggery out of the honey, looks like stout..


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## TimT

Mine wasn't really sherry tasting.... but then it was made with a goodly proportion of unburnt honey to burnt honey as well, so it could do with some ageing. Dark amber colour, some toffee flavourings.


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## Dave70

I added about 100g brown sugar syrup to mine after I transferred it. Hopefully with the Belgian yeast it will give it a little 'rumminess'.


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## MightyLolz

Dave70 I had to do it in two batches so I didn't actually cook the honey all that long, less than 20 minutes. As to whether it tasted like sherry, I've never tried it so I'm not sure! Definitely looks like stout though...
I'm still unsure if I should be adding more yeast, the fermentation hasn't been very active. I'm concerned I burned the yeast since I added it at such a high temp


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## mr_wibble

Yeah I still haven't tasted mine either.

It's still sitting on the spices, I'll have to get around to bottling it this weekend I think.
If the original hadn't mentioned overly-spiced I think I'd leave it for a lot longer.


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## Dave70

A month or whatever it is, still bubbling along slightly and really beginning to clear. 
Probably could have been a little braver with the cooking the honey darker. Still looks good when the sun hits it.


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## Alex.Tas

I made a batch a year or so ago and it was horrible when i bottled it. I got a bit excited when i was cooking the honey and ended up burning it to hell. Ive got some sitting in some wax sealed bottles, with some hope that in 4 years or so they will be somewhat drinkable.

I'm sure you guys have seen something like this before, but just in case some of you haven't here is the effect the cooking progress had on my honey.


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## mr_wibble

I was thinking about bottling mine any week now.

Too busy this weekend though.


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## TimT

Bottled today. It had been sitting today on orange peel, cloves, and vanilla for ages and they've really given it a lovely, Christmassy taste and smell. 

It's good to go pretty much straight away - though I suspect the strong spicing and toffee flavours are hiding up some of the naughty phenols, etc, that you typically get in young meads. So it's a bit of a trade off - age and lose some of the fresh spice kick, or drink straight away and risk a pounding headache the morning after.

Overall probably one of my best brews this year (so far). I like this bochet style and think it and I could have a wonderful future together.


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## Dave70

Thinking of carbing half of my batch slightly to make it a little 'spritzy'. I reckon about the amount of sugar you'd use to carbonate a stubby per 700mm bottle should do the trick. I've force carbed Stones Ginger wine before and it was great. 

Indeed, mead hangovers are in a class of their own.

Wouldn't say mine has a 'Christmassy' taste though, but then again, how does one capture the essence of '_I wish these people would just fcuking leave and let me have a drink in peace!' _in a bottle.


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## mr_wibble

So one carbonation drop per 700ml you reckon ... Hmmm, that is a tempting idea.


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## Mardoo

Dave70 said:


> Wouldn't say mine has a 'Christmassy' taste though, but then again, how does one capture the essence of '_I wish these people would just fcuking leave and let me have a drink in peace!' _in a bottle.


Sounds like bourbon to me. Or Tequila if you're feeling a bit Nicholas Cage


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## Dave70

Mr Wibble said:


> So one carbonation drop per 700ml you reckon ... Hmmm, that is a tempting idea.


I'm kind of leaning toward trying a small bit, say in a 600ml soft drink bottle and see how it goes first. With less than 5L to play with I'd hate to see half the batch burst over the garage floor.


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## TimT

There are some mead recipes here, including amounts of sugar for carbonation. They're for 3 gallon bunches, so divide the amount of sugar by three for a 4-5 L batch today. I'm bottling some mead today myself which I plan to carbonate.


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## mr_wibble

So I finally bottled this over the weekend.

It's *very* fricken spicy. 

So much so, that when SWMBO did a blind tasting, she screwed her nose up.
It didn't taste that bad to me, the toffee-honey was there, but definitely in the background WRT to the spices. Of course I knew what I was tasting beforehand too.

We'll see how it tastes in another six months.

I'm wondering if this recipe is one to show off how 14th-century rich you are... 
Being able to afford all those super-expensive spices from far off lands, and have your servants brew them into strong drink.

*shrug*
-kt


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## TimT

_I'm wondering if this recipe is one to show off how 14th-century rich you are... _
_Being able to afford all those super-expensive spices from far off lands, and have your servants brew them into strong drink._

Probably partly that - and honey was/is a luxury ingredient for brews. So burning it to make a mead is kinda like burning money.


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## mr_wibble

I opened a small bottle on new-years eve.

The toffee-honey is still there, and it's a nice aspect of the rather-complex flavour.

But the spices are very much there too, and now have a kind-of woody note, not in a bad way I guess, but it's not a huge plus either.

There is also some secondary pepper-like warming of the palette in the aftertaste. I don't remember how much pepper was added, but I enjoyed this part.

We did not finish the bottle though, no-one thought it was good enough for a 2nd taste.

So if you're reading this trying to decide Bouchet Vs JAO, go with the JAO.

But I'll do another tasting in a year or so.

-kt


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## Mardoo

That said, we tasted a bochet by AJ80 at the recent VIC case swap that was fan-freakin-tastic and totally convinced me to make one. No comment on your brewing prowess Mr. Wibble, just an alternative viewpoint  He just went straight honey, no spices. It was interesting and complex and I would have gladly grabbed the whole bottle for myself.


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## TimT

My one is mellowing nicely and finally - to my nose, at least - developing a bit of the ordinary mead aroma.

I wonder how it's going to age given another year!


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## Tahoose

Mardoo said:


> That said, we tasted a bochet by AJ80 at the recent VIC case swap that was fan-freakin-tastic and totally convinced me to make one. No comment on your brewing prowess Mr. Wibble, just an alternative viewpoint  He just went straight honey, no spices. It was interesting and complex and I would have gladly grabbed the whole bottle for myself.


Yeah that was awesome, only thing that came to mind when I was drinking that was port. The glares around the table was that off a group of men almost ready to throw down for a bag of cash.


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## mr_wibble

Mardoo said:


> That said, we tasted a bochet by AJ80 at the recent VIC case swap that was fan-freakin-tastic and totally convinced me to make one. No comment on your brewing prowess Mr. Wibble, just an alternative viewpoint  He just went straight honey, no spices. It was interesting and complex and I would have gladly grabbed the whole bottle for myself.


Yeah that sounds good, all toffee, not so much spices.
Maybe a bouchet with JAo style spicing ... yeah


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## AJ80

Cheers for the feedback gents! I'm tempted to make the spiced version this winter to see how it compares.


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## Tahoose

A little off topic but does $10/kg sound reasonable for honey and how much will you bed for 10ltrs?


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## Airgead

Its OK but not great. If you search around you can get it for 8 pretty easily and I've found if for 5 or 6 occasionally.

If someone had 10kg of honey and wanted me to bed them for it, I would do it if they were a 7 or above. Normally I just give them some money in exchange for honey, but hey... whatever.


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## MetalDan

I was hoping to try a bochet soon, and was looking into what yeast to use and thinking D47 or 71B. Can't find any at the LHBS or site sponsors (point me in the right direction if I'm wrong), so was looking on ebay and other sites for some.

Anyone have any recommendations as a good seller on ebay, I was thinking this one from the UK:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5x-Lalvin-D47-Yeast-White-and-Blush-Wines-5g-Homebrew-Wine-Making-4-5L-23L-/281451487651?hash=item4187d0e1a3:g:yh4AAOSwq7JUJf8r


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## TimT

I too wish to find this 71B. A few brewers here and there in Aus might have it but I don't think it's sold commercially.


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## barls

http://www.ibrew.com.au/collections/wine-yeast-strains
thats where i got my last lot from


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## MetalDan

Thanks for the aussie link barls, will order some in


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## Airgead

Ibrew is the only place I have found that sells 71B in small lots. Winequip has it in half kilo and kilo bricks if you need that much.


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## mr_wibble

FWIW there was an episode mid last year on Basic Brewing Radio about whether bread yeast was the best for mead.

http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/bbr08-13-15lebernhc.mp3

I thought his findings were that people preferred _his mead_ made with bread yeast.
I personally don't have an opinion either way.


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## Airgead

Mr Wibble said:


> FWIW there was an episode mid last year on Basic Brewing Radio about whether bread yeast was the best for mead.


It isn't. If bread yeast improves your mead then you have issues.


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## mr_wibble

Airgead said:


> It isn't. If bread yeast improves your mead then you have issues.


So do you reckon JAO would be better made with Lalvin 71B ?

Spec's say it's tolerant to 14% - that's about what generic "bread yeast" is supposed to get to.


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## TimT

It's not just about tolerance, though, is it? We've all read the brewing books - *most* yeasts will conk out at around 12-14%. 

I don't think mead is a very well understood style, which could partly explain the reactions to 'bread yeast mead'. I can't claim to have a rich understanding of the drink myself. I'd have to know more about this guy's experiments; how much experience does he have with mead, does he use bread yeast with everything he brews, etc etc....


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## Airgead

Mr Wibble said:


> So do you reckon JAO would be better made with Lalvin 71B ?


Probably. I'm not a fan of citrus meads myself so never done the experiment on that one.


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## MetalDan

Not that I've brewed a mead before but not sure how accurate that BBR experiment was, sounded more like people preferred the sweetness of the 10% mead (bread yeast) rather than the 14% dryer mead (71B). If he brewed with the bread yeast again and it didn't conk out at 10% I wonder what the results would have been.


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## TimT

Yeah - sweetness is hardly the only desirable aspect to a mead. 

It's important to get honey characteristics but sweetness is only one part to this. 

My smoothest mead, weirdly enough, was probably from a wild yeast I collected when a moth flew into some wort I had lying around(!) But, last time I checked, typical mead characteristics (strong honey/beeswax/floral smells) aren't strong in that one.


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## Airgead

TimT said:


> Yeah - sweetness is hardly the only desirable aspect to a mead.


Although a lot of people think it is. They mistake sweetness for honey character and brew honey syrup.


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## Simdop

AJ80 said:


> Cheers for the feedback gents! I'm tempted to make the spiced version this winter to see how it compares.


What yeast did you end up using? And how long did you boil the honey for?


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## Simdop

How are everyone else's recipes turning out?


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## TimT

Oh, I finished my bochet a while ago. It turned out alright, I had originally planned to do it with only a minimum of burnt honey so I could hopefully get some of those fresh mead flavours and smells too. Turns out the burnt honey completely dominated the flavour and character of the brew, but with vanilla it became a pleasant ( if powerful) drink. I just used the Mangrove Jacks Newcastle Ale yeast on it. I probably won't be doing another bochet for a while as I'm more interested in the fresh honey flavours and smells. However, burnt honey would make a very interesting adjunct in a beer.


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## Simdop

TimT said:


> Oh, I finished my bochet a while ago. It turned out alright, I had originally planned to do it with only a minimum of burnt honey so I could hopefully get some of those fresh mead flavours and smells too. Turns out the burnt honey completely dominated the flavour and character of the brew, but with vanilla it became a pleasant ( if powerful) drink. I just used the Mangrove Jacks Newcastle Ale yeast on it. I probably won't be doing another bochet for a while as I'm more interested in the fresh honey flavours and smells. However, burnt honey would make a very interesting adjunct in a beer.


did you do a small batch and if so, what ratio of honey to water did you go with?


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## TimT

Yeah mine are usually smallish. It depends how many frames we take out of the hive. 

At any rate I never have very exact measurements as , once I have crushed honey out of the comb, I soak the crushed bits of comb in water, and that then becomes the base for a mead. I add more honey if I want to get the gravity up. 

The gravity for this one might have been - I dunno - 1.100? Can't remember. Sorry.


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## Simdop

No worries. What spices did you use?

I've tried a variety of places but it seems like I can only get long pepper and grains of paradise online. So I'm thinking I might substitute as I don't want to order spices that I may only use once.


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## TimT

Vanilla, can't recall anything else. Vanilla was a good choice as it smoothed out all the weird 'young mead' flavours; but it faded with age.


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## TimT

Hm, long pepper - never heard of it before! 

You should bear in mind that sometimes brew stores are the *worst* places to source brew spices (if they're not hops). I remember a few years back buying a small packet of juniper berries for a large price from a brew store, and then walking into my local shopping centre and finding in the nuts and spice store a large packet of juniper berries being sold for a small price. 

Spice warehouses or factory outlets can have some extremely good stuff; have a shop around.


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## TimT

TBH both grain of paradise and long pepper sound like pretty good general cooking ingredients, so it's not as if they'd stay lying around forever


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## Mardoo

Grains of paradise are fantastic in you pepper grinder!


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## welly2

Just bottled my first bochet, it's tasting pretty good. Quite sweet although not cloyingly so but tasty.

Had to rush this one through due to moving back to pommyland so was fermenting for 6 weeks, secondary for a couple of weeks and just bottled today.

Will take it back to pommyland and let it sit in the bottle for 3 or 4 months. Apart from this one bottle I'm drinking now.


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## knot_gillty

mr_wibble said:


> *snip*
> 
> But I'll do another tasting in a year or so.
> 
> -kt



How’d this pan out mr wibble? I’m considering doing a bouchet in the near future.


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## Dae Tripper

knot_gillty said:


> How’d this pan out mr wibble? I’m considering doing a bouchet in the near future.



They are yum, DO IT!


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## knot_gillty

Dae Tripper said:


> They are yum, DO IT!



I think I’m going to have to! I’ll just have a play around with a few spices and stuff. I’ll wait until I get some decent yeast first, order going in in the new year.


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## mr_wibble

Uh, I haven't tasted it again yet.


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## knot_gillty

mr_wibble said:


> Uh, I haven't tasted it again yet.



Have you still got a bottle or two this batch or is it all gone?


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## mr_wibble

I think I have a few bottles left.
To be honest, I think it will still be spice-city, and not in a good way.

I reckon the recipe was wrong, mis-transcribed, or written down after the fact, etc.


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## Hugh Coleman

Oh my, the bees really do take an interest in your boiling honey!
I just spent a good half hour out at the BBQ boiling up some honey for a Bochet. 
1Kg Bochet Wildflower Honey, 0.5Kg Wildflower Honey, some Orange Zest and water to a Gallon. MJ05 yeast and some Yeast Hulls for Nutrient.
I boiled the honey as slow as I was able for about 30 minutes out on my BBQs wok burner as I'm forbidden to do that sort of stuff inside the house... by the time I had finished, I was surrounded by concerned bees wanting to rescue their hive. The Must is bubbling away merrily now only about a half hour after pitching the yeast dry. It can stay sitting there until It's clear.

Cheers,

Hugh


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## Malchizedec

For anyone wanting to make a bochet, please ensure your pot is 4 times bigger than the volume of honey you are looking to boil and DONT burn your honey.

Slowly cook the honey keeping a low boil, over 20-40 minutes it will darken without burning.
take little amounts out and put a dot on a plate to check their colour and taste.

Burning your honey will make it taste terrible.

I have a toffee apple fermenting at the moment, bush honey, pressed apple juice and half an orange of zest (no pith).
It tastes delicious.

Good luck.


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