# The Hop Character/flavour Wheel



## Nick JD (3/1/12)

In another thread it was noted that the Hop Character Wheel image has not got a whole heap of the new varieties of hops on it. I proposed we add them in. 

Who wants to help (aka, let the shitfight commence)?  

I added Galaxy (ariel font, 14 point, black).


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## tallie (3/1/12)

Nick JD said:


> I added Galaxy (ariel font, 14 point, black).



Fruity, also Fruity - mistake or making a point?

Cheers,
tallie


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## Nick JD (3/1/12)

tallie said:


> Fruity, also Fruity - mistake or making a point?
> 
> Cheers,
> tallie



Oh yeah. Oops. I'll fix it.

Any suggestions to hops that need to go in there? Where does Citra go?


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## Nick JD (3/1/12)

How's this? Look right?

Where does Stella and Wai-iti go?


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## Yob (3/1/12)

Quote

Aroma/Flavor: Lots of descriptors out there: Citrus, peach, apricot, passion fruit, grapefruit, lime, melon, gooseberry, lychee fruit, pineapple, mango, papaya and other tropical fruit flavors and aromas. So, ah, fruity.

Alpha Acid: 10 to 12%

from HERE

:icon_cheers:

edit Forgot the Wai Iti which I think falls into the same region.

Wai-iti Hop pellets. NZ - Crop 2011 (AA 2.8%) NEW VARIETY
High oil & low alpha low alpha Wai-ti showcases its aroma characters which are
startlingly of citrus made up of mandarin, lemon and lime zest..really intense.


Yob


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## Nick JD (3/1/12)

iamozziyob said:


> Quote
> 
> Aroma/Flavor: Lots of descriptors out there: Citrus, peach, apricot, passion fruit, grapefruit, lime, melon, gooseberry, lychee fruit, pineapple, mango, papaya and other tropical fruit flavors and aromas. So, ah, fruity.
> 
> ...



Yes - I too can look these up. The thing is - is it in the right place on the wheel? 

IMO, lots of hops I've used a lot aren't in the place I'd put them on there. Centenial needs a GRASSY superscript.

With citra as the example, should it be closer to the citrus side or the floral side of the fruity area? There are subtleties in the wheel if you look closely. It's not cut and dried if you'll excuse the pun. The closer to the outside of the wheel, the stronger (more prominent) the flavour - so that needs to be accounted for too. Hence it's best if you've tried it.

Souldn't Wai-iti be in CITRUS?


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## .DJ. (3/1/12)

shouldnt Simcoe be over near galaxy, centennial etc etc?

I always think of it as a mixture of NS and galaxy..


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## Yob (3/1/12)

er... I do get what you mean, perhaps close to the line or even on it? the wheel has the (*) mark for also.. I guess these impressions will vary a little from person to person so just in the ball park is gunna do us yeah?

with Wai Iti, Ive used it once but not exclusivly but I would say it was on the fruity side of the line but only just with a . ?? Least that was my impression B) 

This is a great utility

Cheers

edit:


Image


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## Nick JD (3/1/12)

.DJ. said:


> shouldnt Simcoe be over near galaxy, centennial etc etc?
> 
> I always think of it as a mixture of NS and galaxy..



Evergreen = Piney, or resiny. I think it's in the right place. 

Another thing to note about the wheel is the little letters at the end of the hop names. This is where a hop displays characteristics from opposite sides of the wheel and can't be accurately placed.

Southern cross could have been put in the CITRUS area (IMO) with an "V" noting it was piney also.


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## Nick JD (3/1/12)

iamozziyob said:


> This is a great utility



For sure. I've used it a few times for recipe formulation.

Like say you wanted a Boh Pils with a hint more earthiness and a touch of pine in there: Use Tettnanger with a touch of Green Bullet. That sort of thing.


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## MarkBastard (3/1/12)

I personally don't see a lot of value in that wheel.


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## MHB (3/1/12)

There have been lots of attempts to pictorially describe hops, any single point diagram is destine to fail, it simply cant convey enough information.
What I find most useful are spider diagrams, they are very popular among German hop researchers and writers.
Starting on about page 30 you might get some idea of what Im talking about, note taste and aroma arent on the same diagram!
You will have to download the PDF its 6+Meg so I cant post it Hop Variety Portfolio: Download  near the bottom of the page.
Mark


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## Nick JD (3/1/12)

MHB said:


> There have been lots of attempts to pictorially describe hops, any single point diagram is destine to fail, it simply can’t convey enough information.



True, but in saying this you've missed the point. To a lot of _new brewers_ that hop wheel is a very valuable tool. It's even been used in good books, which kind of illustrates its usefulness somewhat. 

If you are brewing guru - of course it's not much use - but to the begginner who doesn't want to trail through each and every hop variety it gives a quick pictorial idea of where hops sit in relation to other hops.

Perhaps you could do a thread for those who already know everything about hop flavours? Like zee germans you mention. If these spider diagrams are useful to you (an expert's expert) then they will be next to useless to those new to brewing trying to understand hop flavour and the relationships between varieties.

Again (ad bloody nauseum), people starting out brewing do not require a Treatise of the be all and end all of Brewing. They just wanna know what hops taste like without trolling through a lot of text. KIS Stupid. We all know you're smart and we should buy stuff from you because you're so smart ... but we get it now, so let's try to be helpful rather than Captain Smartipants, eh?


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## yardy (3/1/12)

MHB said:


> There have been lots of attempts to pictorially describe hops, any single point diagram is destine to fail, it simply cant convey enough information.
> What I find most useful are spider diagrams, they are very popular among German hop researchers and writers.
> Starting on about page 30 you might get some idea of what Im talking about, note taste and aroma arent on the same diagram!
> You will have to download the PDF its 6+Meg so I cant post it Hop Variety Portfolio: Download  near the bottom of the page.
> Mark



nice post


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## the_new_darren (3/1/12)

POR should be further in the dirt hop section (I mean earthy)

tnd


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## gravey (3/1/12)

MHB said:


> There have been lots of attempts to pictorially describe hops, any single point diagram is destine to fail, it simply can't convey enough information.
> What I find most useful are spider diagrams, they are very popular among German hop researchers and writers.
> Starting on about page 30 you might get some idea of what I'm talking about, note taste and aroma aren't on the same diagram!
> You will have to download the PDF its 6+Meg so I can't post it Hop Variety Portfolio: Download  near the bottom of the page.
> Mark



very good link, thanks! Any idea where you can get similar diagrams for other hop varieties?


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## MHB (3/1/12)

Im looking, John Ross from Hop Co put one out some years ago more a pie graph showing the various fractions but I cant open the file anymore been corrupted.
Just spoke to them and will get some more over the next couple of days, apparently way to big a file for 1 email and no one is in the office right now.

Might start a new thread save stepping on Nicks obviously sensitive ingrown toenail
Mark


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## MarkBastard (3/1/12)

MHB said:


> Im looking, John Ross from Hop Co put one out some years ago more a pie graph showing the various fractions but I cant open the file anymore been corrupted.
> Just spoke to them and will get some more over the next couple of days, apparently way to big a file for 1 email and no one is in the office right now.
> 
> Might start a new thread save stepping on Nicks obviously sensitive ingrown toenail
> Mark



Can't see your new thread so I'll ask here, and I didn't click on that link so if it's covered there then I'll probably look stupid.

But can hops at all be described based on the content of their oils etc? So hops with similar measured oils should be similar? Is there correlation between certain measured properties and the perceived aroma and flavour?


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## Lecterfan (3/1/12)

Further to MarkB's comment, one of the last brew strong (a live Q+A I think) episodes spent some time discussing how important overall oil content is in regards to flavour/aroma etc rather than just AAU%ages. As an inexperienced AG brewer it made a lot of sense to me and based on that I have started to take overall oil content into account also (when the info is available, although I am assuming that even with seasonal differences some varieties will simply be 'oilier' than others). Sorry for the slightly off topic ramble.


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## MHB (3/1/12)

Havent started a new thread, but will when I have more information to post.
And yes I believe that thats the idea of spider diagrams, the Link does explain the method used to gather the data and is well worth reading.
The biggest problem I see with a single point diagram is well look at Mittlefrh smack in the middle, is that saying it has an equal balance of all the characters or none of them at all?
Compare that to the spider diagram on Page 30 and see which is the most informative.
Mark


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## kalbarluke (3/1/12)

the_new_darren said:


> POR should be further in the dirt hop section (I mean earthy)



+1 :lol:


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## Nick JD (3/1/12)

MHB said:


> ...well look at Mittlefrh smack in the middle, is that saying it has an equal balance of all the characters or none of them at all?



My guess is they are not saying it has none of the characters because only a moron would think that.

Probably best if you email Jamil Zainasheff or John Palmer and ask them what they meant when they created it.


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## the_new_darren (3/1/12)

I thought thats Nicks chart quite accurately portrayed at a single glance the relative "profiles" of most of the mainstream hops. Obviously each and every one of us has slightly different perceptions of aroma/flavour profiles but that is only a learned experience.

As for Mittlefr. Its because on the scale to 1-9 it has bugger all flavour/bitterness and therefore ALOT should be used if the brewer requires flavour/aroma from it.

Lets not get into the facts that seasonal variation (and storage) can turn a fantastic hop into a CHEESE beer.

For example Saaz aint Saaz unless its fresh, Cascade ain't Cascade unless its fresh and I suspect we will all soon be discovering that Citra ain't necessarily Citra.

Relabelling of hops worldwide by HB shops has been a problem over the years.

Basically, If it isn't in the foil it was packed in with the date of production, then there is absolutely NO guarantee that it is what you are buying.

Thems the facts.

cheers

tnd


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## beerdrinkingbob (3/1/12)

you two really need to get a room...

Great idea to start the thread Nick, like others have pointed out the info is out there but it's nice to be able to look at a glace on what might suit the beer your after..

Cheers BDB


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## Blitzer (9/10/12)

Maybe a bit off-topic, making an American Pale Ale any ideas on Galaxy & Fuggle together? 
Thinking something like complimenting colours


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## bignath (9/10/12)

Blitzer said:


> Maybe a bit off-topic, making an American Pale Ale any ideas on Galaxy & Fuggle together?
> Thinking something like complimenting colours



Id ditch the fuggles. More suited to english beers.

Lord Raja Goomba III does a lot of APA's (as do i), and he has done a fair bit of brewing with Galaxy combining Cascade and NS all together i reckon. Sounds tasty.

Cascade is definitely "to style".....Citra is a newish hop that is retardedly popular at the moment. Citra by itself goes very well. 

Maybe pm lrj and see what he reckons, but i'll bet most other brewers will say to lose the fuggles.


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## Nick JD (9/10/12)

Fuggles tastes like mushroom compost.


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## Blitzer (9/10/12)

MMmm I have 100g Fuggles struggling to find a beer to put them in.. that I want to make. 

Mushroom Composte.. sounds delicious.


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## Lecterfan (9/10/12)

Big Nath said:


> Id ditch the fuggles. More suited to english beers.




You're right Big Nath, probably most will say to ditch it...not me though.

After my early AG successes with Argon's LFPA using EKG at 40 mins for bittering (and of course this can require a large-ish amount of EKG at times depending on AAU), I have tried fruity hops and english hops over a few beers and I quite like it. The key has been English hops early so there is flavour, with the C hops/fruity/whatever hops adding both flavour and aroma.

In fact I wager you could use first gold exclusively in an APA and most people would be perfectly hapy with the APA descriptor. I've used first gold and galaxy in an AIPA that was well received by local pissheads BAR members.

Although I _have_ been advised recently to avoid Target and C hops as it tends to create a late POR type character (unless you are into that), but I've enjoyed combos of EKG/cascade, Styrians/cascade, ekg/amarillo and even once saaz/amarillo.

Certainly it depends on what you are chasing flavour and aroma wise, but I don't think it's an automatic no. For e.g. although others have had success with Summit, I did not (google search will reveal my thoughts as well as those such as Cocko who has used it without fault), and I would much sooner attempt a fuggles/galaxy cross over than I would use summit again for a fruity 1.050 ish 40 IBUish beer.

I would not use them in the same additions, but the english hops as flavour with a bit of citrus/fruit hops etc on top of them, then brewed with say wy1469 at warmer temps...delicious.

Yes, I will be in the minority, and you won't score comp points with the combo, but you just might stumble on something you really like. Just my 2c. :beer:


edit: 100gms of fuggles - perfect - use them for bittering between 30 and 60 mins and the rest late. Send the batch to me if you don't want to drink it haha


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## bignath (9/10/12)

Lecterfan said:


> You're right Big Nath, probably most will say to ditch it...not me though.
> 
> After my early AG successes with Argon's LFPA using EKG at 40 mins for bittering (and of course this can require a large-ish amount of EKG at times depending on AAU), I have tried fruity hops and english hops over a few beers and I quite like it. The key has been English hops early so there is flavour, with the C hops/fruity/whatever hops adding both flavour and aroma.
> 
> ...



Actually, i'll take a few steps back LF. You raise some interesting points that i hadn't considered before actioning my "push button finger".

One of my favourite mainstreamish beers is LCPA, and if i recall correctly, the original (as does argon's??) is bittered with EKG and flavoured with Cascade or Amarillo, so that shoots my idea clean out the water. Hadn't thought of that...

It's actually one of the more legendary beers on here that i've never tried to brew. Maybe i should grab some good ol English hops and knock one out.

As a side note......Summit. I've got 500g of the stuff that i don't know what to do with. Sounds like i should pm cocko and pick his brains.


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## Nick JD (9/10/12)

Quite a few American Ales use UK hops.


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