# Pouring onto a yeast cake?



## Droopy Brew (17/5/13)

So I have a pretty good yeast in the beer I'm about to keg this arvo and have read that you can simply pour a wort onto an existing yeast cake.

A couple of questions?
Do you simply pour off as much beer from the yeast cake as possible then put your new brew into the same fermenter? 

What about sanitation? I have a krausen line full of hop pellets around the top not to mention hoppy bits in the trub- will this greatly affect the new beer and/or give me a high risk of infection?

Im looking to do a toucan Coopers Lagar/Draught plus DME/Dex to 1kg. Yeast cake is from a beer which is coming out at around 6.5%ABV.

Cheers


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## Yob (17/5/13)

Not good practice, will stress the yeast and can lead to excessive ester development etc..

a correct pitch rate is best..

run it through Mr Malty for a ballpark


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## Logman (17/5/13)

Using the whole cake is considered too much. You need to drain off the beer, then mix up the rest and remove all but about a glass of the slurry - If you use a glass to remove the excess make sure it's very clean and sanitized. Be careful to keep the lid on where possible during the process and you will be fine.

Some guys remove a glass full of the slurry and put that and the wort into a clean fermenter, some say you're just asking for more problems doing that, each to his own.

Wolfy has *heaps of threads* with great info about this stuff.

...beaten to it by Yob


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## jaypes (17/5/13)

Reuse some of the yeast (rinse/wash) for your next brew - make a starter out of it


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## Phoney (17/5/13)

It also depends on what gravity your first and next beer is at. Everything you need to know is here: http://www.wyeastlab.com/com-yeast-harvest.cfm


And the best pitch rate calculator is found here: http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm


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## black_labb (17/5/13)

I'll sometimes pitch onto a yeast cake. If I need to do a particularly high gravity brew, or a highish gravity lager pitched at 10*c I'll use the full cake. If not I'll take the scientific approach of pouring some out and pitching onto there. I'd suggest that you are better over pitching than under.

I take into consideration the beer before. I wouldn't pitch a pils on top of a baltic porter for colour and flavour reasons as well as gravity reasons. I would put a baltic porter on a pils as the flavours of a pils are not going to effect a baltic porter.


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## GrumpyPaul (17/5/13)

Before I knew any better i did a very rough and ready attempt at this.

It was a kits and bits recipe made up of out of date can, some left over spec grains and odds and end of hops that I had laying around.

Essentially the brew cost bugger all so I wasnt worried if it didnt work.

The tap go a bit clogged up and the trub was just trickling out - being the impatient type I just up ended the fermenter and poured the yeast cake straight inot the new batch.

No measuring - no rinsing of yeast. Didnt even think about the dirty krausen line around the top.

It turned out awesome. In fact it won Melbourne Brewers "Get you kit off" kit brew comp last year.

It probably wasnt the most technically correct way to do it - and I have no doubt I was very lucky.

Yes it will work - but you might want to be a bit more pedantic than i was on the process.


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## iralosavic (17/5/13)

I almost always reuse the yeast cake for lagers and rarely for ales. My recent line of ascension is 1.058 Marzen, 1.064 Dunkel, 1.075 Baltic porter. Notice increasing OG and colour. None if these brews have enough hop character to bother their children. Works a treat every time and saves on DME and mucking around.


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## Yob (17/5/13)

iralosavic said:


> I almost always reuse the yeast cake for lagers and rarely for ales. My recent line of ascension is 1.058 Marzen, 1.064 Dunkel, 1.075 Baltic porter. Notice increasing OG and colour. None if these brews have enough hop character to bother their children. Works a treat every time and saves on DME and mucking around.


on the whole cake? Agreed that re-pitching is a great saver but Ive never been able to use a whole cake based on the reading that ive done, I just cant do it.


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## bradsbrew (17/5/13)

Yob said:


> on the whole cake? Agreed that re-pitching is a great saver but Ive never been able to use a whole cake based on the reading that ive done, I just cant do it.


If I followed everything I read I should either be dead or not be brewing.

I do it a fair bit. I done a risk assessment on the whole infection thing and came to the conclusion that there is a greater risk of getting an infection by removing the yeast etc. So I thought I would try pitching on a whole cake into a sterile environment, I only put a small hole in the glad wrap as it is emptied into the keg. Then as soon as the keg lid goes on I take the glad wrap off the fermenter, pour in the cube and re glad wrap. Have been doing this for a few years, only on occasion but never had a problem with doing it this way. Yeast does not show signs of stress with this method.
Only time I have had problems with using yeast cake is when I have removed it from the fermenter and repitched from a PET etc.
I understand it is not recommended to do it this way but have not had any issues that all the text says I should.

Disclaimer: I would not do it this way if I was bottling or using anything other than a cube or FWK.

Go on Yob give it a go.

Cheers


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## Yob (17/5/13)

More to do with yeast health than anything else mate, sanitation Ive no problem with..

While I understand that many people have done/do it and can determine no problems it's something that I just cant seem to bring myself to do.. it's my opinion that if starting off with poor practice makes it a big hill to climb to good practice but if you start with good practice it's an easy slide into being lazy  (and you already understand the risks)

TBH, these days Im tending to lean toward more practices that save me some time and Ive not fermented back to back for a while so invariably I end up with a starter so it's a moot point for me ATM.

:icon_cheers:


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## sponge (17/5/13)

From my understanding, over pitching is just as bad as under pitching. There will be a whole bunch of dead yeast going into the new beer, and will (IIRC) lead to autolysis, not mentioning the fact that the yeast growth stage produces the esters which a particular strain is known for, which will be significantly reduced if over pitching.

As yob says, might as well get into the habit of best practice and then it will just come naturally. You will still make beer under/over pitching, but why do this when it is just as easy (IMO) to add a little more/less yeast and produce a better beer..?


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## Sam England (17/5/13)

I tend to pitch on the yeast cake only when I'm building up for a big beer and normally not the whole cake as I don't want to over pitch by a mile. At the moment I'm brewing a lightish belgian pale (1.046 OG) to then pitch a Belgian strong on top. I haven't ever started with a big beer, mainly because of what I've read about yeast stress, but I've never personally tested this. If I was going to re-pitch from a big beer I'd top crop (if the yeast is suitable) and put in the fridge in a sterile container before the alc % gets too high to avoid stressing the yeast and then pitch this instead of the whole cake. I also use hop bags for dry hopping to minimise the amount of crud in the cake being transferred between brews. You may also want to tip some out, if only to stop your tap from becoming buried!!

Cheers,
BB


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## sponge (17/5/13)

Yea I normally have a couple of brews in cubes lined up for a particular yeast. For example, I have an 'english' red (irish red w/ 1469), a brown porter and a stronger stout that I will use some of the slurry of from the previous brew. When I get around to brewing a mild for the 1469, I will use a couple of L's to make a starter which will go on to ferment the mild -> red -> porter -> stout in that order. I normally do that with most yeasts so I am re-using it (thus, saving money), but also making sure I am not over pitching by only taking around 200mL of slurry (depending upon what some of the yeast calculators say).

Also means I haven't worried about storing slants and whatnot since my fridge space will not allow that at this stage.


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## bradsbrew (17/5/13)

But how are you accurately calculating your yeast count when that slurry is a blend of trub, dead yeast cells, healthy yeast cells, not so healthy yeast trub, hop matter etc. I know that Mr malty has a variable % allowance for that but how do you initially work out what that % is. IMO unless you are fully washing the yeast, which would surely be best practise, you are at a greater risk of stressing the yeast than if you were to just tip onto the cake?
When I have judged beers or received feedback I can't remember ever seeing or hearing a comment like "The over balance or esters that are being displayed within this beer shows yeast stress due to an over pitch". Not saying its not the reason just can't recall anyone picking that up.


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## tiprya (17/5/13)

Over pitching is just as bad as under pitching in terms of off flavours/under attenuation. If you pitch onto a full yeast cake you are without a doubt over pitching significantly.

Like many bad practices (under pitching, not aerating etc.) you will get beer. But in this case to do things more optimally, all you have to do is collect a jar of slurry, then clean out the fermenter and sanitise it - is it really that much more effort?


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## sponge (17/5/13)

Granted, I probably should begin to wash the yeast, but am just skipping that due to lazy-ness more than anything (which really does go against my previous point about best practice). I promise I will do it soon :lol:

As for mrmalty etc, it will often depend upon if I have dry-hopped or not, as will normally put in extra slurry from a dry-hopped beer then one which has not been, due to the extra hop debris which is present. There may not have been too many beers which have been judged to have been over pitched, but I am sure that there have probably been some instances in a belgian or weizen (for example) where more esters would be preferred, which could have been due to the brewer over pitching. I am sure that someone with more experience with this would be able to chime in though. (and granted, there are other factors with ester production such as temperature, etc)

For me, I just use MrMalty as a guide as to how much yeast is required, as the thickness of slurry and non-yeast % is somewhat down to an individuals perspective.

I would really only be tipping onto a yeast cake if doing a barley wine or something along those lines, which may still very well be over pitching, depending upon batch size, OG, etc.


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## 431neb (17/5/13)

I guess I'll call it "pitching" wort onto yeast but you blokes know what I mean. Anyway what about pitching (wort) onto the minimal amount of yeast that's left in a secondary? I tried it recently but didn't have the agates to find out if it would work and pitched a packet of kit yeast onto it as well. 

I know that the amount left in the secondary varies depending on other practices. I have often transferred to secondary after about 10 days in the primary and then immediately cold crash - to give an idea of how much yeast I'm talking about - The bottom of the fermenter is basically clean with a few flocculated (I assume) nuggets of yeast scattered about. 

It would be too good to be true that that would result in anything close to an optimal pitch rate huh? 

I'm probably not making myself very clear. The above method made a cracker stout (hence this rambling post) that makes me wonder if the the yeast from the secondary won the day (It was a lager yeast).

I guess it's pretty obvious that I forgot to buy yeast that day. I fermented at about 15 degrees from memory because at the time I thought "**** it - each way bet".

More stout....It really is good.


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## drew9242 (17/5/13)

I'm a lazy cleaner in brewing. Ill keg then take a bit of yeast out then chuck the next brew on top. Ill do this 3 times before I clean the fermentor out. IMO I have had great success and will keep doing it. Not just to save money but because I need to pump a lot of brews through my 2 fermentors. And this makes it a lot easier. Ill keep doing it as it works and if anything have noticed improvement of beers.


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## Yob (17/5/13)

Collecting yeast from secondary is selecting yeast that are more alternative and less floculent, successive selection of this yeast may lead to a beer that just won't clear, less important in a stout, given, and will also be more alternative than you would like normally.. 

Cheers


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## manticle (17/5/13)

Yob said:


> Collecting yeast from secondary is selecting yeast that are more alternative


You mean hardcore body modifications as opposed to nose rings 'n' shit?


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## Yob (17/5/13)

Damn auto correct…

More attenuative yeast…


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## roverfj1200 (17/5/13)

I always remove a schooner of the cake. Clean and treat the fermenter with starsan. Pour the glass of yeast in and dump the new wort on that..Always had good results doing it.


Cheers.


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## Byran (17/5/13)

I have done a fair few beers onto full yeast cakes from the previous batch, with ales its a little silly cause your over pitching the shit out of it, but with lager the more the merrier.

I find the biggest issue is bitterness from the hop residues in the yeast cake.
they can make a beer much more bitter than was intended as you are combining a fair bit of that with your new beer if you use the whole thing.

Even using slurry i like to rinse it and then make a clean starter to grow only fresh yeast and hopefully leave the beer flavour behind in the liquid.

I find now more than ever i like to top crop my ales as the top cropped yeast seems to fire back into life soooo quickly its just more healthy I suppose than the trub on the bottom of the fermenter.

Just scoop it off the beer with a clean spoon into a clean jar with water. Just yeast no need for a starter or rising if using it straight away. 
Of course you could be risking infection but I wear a surgical mask and Ive never had an infection from it.


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## iralosavic (17/5/13)

Has anyone who has reused a yeast cake in with a new wort of similar OG ever noticed any ill effects they may associate with overpitching? I have a frustratingly sensitive palate and I haven't. Therefore, I tend to not bother. I sometimes use the tap to take a hydro sample (to double check a refractometer reading that seems wrong), but am not bothered if the yeast cake gets above it as I siphon the final beer to the keg/secondary anyway. I can also just use a turkey baster if I really need a hydro sample. I think it is actually MORE sanitary to not re-clean the fermenter. If my brewing skill gets to the point where I'm producing award winning beers where judges (or myself, hopefully) can actually tell the difference in a beer that had been overpitched then I'll be stoked. Until then I'm cool with following ye olde KISS and if it aint broke, don't fix it mottos.

Always a case of YMMV and each to their own etc After having one infection, I just prefer cutting transfer steps or introducing foreign vessles into fermenting beer as much as possible. I'm one of those freaks that sprays sanitiser around more than a Tom cat on heat and appreciates first hand that risk elimination is sometimes the only way to be confident that nothing will go wrong.

Edit: just want to add, as per previous post, I am talking about lagers only. I have hardly ever done this with ales.


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## 431neb (18/5/13)

Thanks Yob. I was a little confused about "alternative yeast" but it does sorta make sense I suppose. It's an "alternative (un) attenuative" yeast. Just the once is probably OK then. If I try it again I'll omit the additional yeast and see if it works.

Manticle can you get rid of that ugly bastard? He's more truculent than flocculant.


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## manticle (18/5/13)

Lucky Rich is awesome.


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## sillyboybrybry (20/5/13)

I'm about to do this for the third time. Just chuck it on the cake bam! It is an experiment for the missus, the last one worked extremely well I guess by pure dumb luck! It was an ale on an ale cake that I dry hopped with mosaic.
This time I am going to go a lager on a pils cake, dry hop with some nz saaz and let it just do its thing at ambient temp.
Maybe just chuck 5 grams in of every hop I have in and see what happens??


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