# Queensland.....the dictator state..?



## Ducatiboy stu (10/1/14)

Has the LNP lost the plot.

I know some will agree with this, but is it going far ?

http://m.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/electrician-bikies-to-lose-jobs-by-july-gang-members-or-not-20140109-30ko3.html


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## manticle (10/1/14)

It's a bit ridiculous to compare that to fascism but reading that article suggests that the anti-bike club legislation is also fairly ridiculous.

Wide definition of electricians with ties to outlaw gangs as well.


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/1/14)

Yeah...not really fascist...more dictator police state.


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## Airgead (10/1/14)

Yeah. That is moderately F'd up. Even for Queensland.


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## jc64 (10/1/14)

It's a joke surely, not even the lnp in Queensland could be that ridiculous. Those bikies could only be 1% as crooked when contrasted with a former premier up there


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## philmud (10/1/14)

Not sure about "dictator", but he sure is a dick.


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## Sully (10/1/14)

Dick-tater?


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## browndog (10/1/14)

Not being one nor even knowing someone associated with an outlaw bikie gang, I couldn't give a toss.


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/1/14)

The prob I see is that if you have a criminal record, which doesnt take much, means you could loose your trades licence. And dont think it will stop with sparkies.....

Think, you get pulled up, go DUI, then all of a sudden you loose your trade licence. 

Sure, they are using bikies as an example, but what happens when someone starts saying that all those with a criminal records should be subject to the same rules.


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## jlm (10/1/14)

Well, you don't even have to have a criminal record......just be an associate of a criminal network (or whatever they're calling it).

Great example from the Govt mouthpiece on the radio went along the lines of "Would you want a member of the hells angels working on your safety switch? We'll let the public decide."

Funnily enough, I spent the first 6 months of my time as an apprentice sparky (in QLD) working with a dude who got of an attempted murder charge a few years earlier on a technicality. He absolutely 100% was guilty but was lucky. I worked with plenty of fuckwits over the years who's weekend would consist of on Friday night, going to the pub, getting pissed then belting *****, and on Saturday, repeat, only with extended piss drinking beforehand. Worked with drug dealers, drug users. Shit, at certain stages of my life you wouldn't have wanted me in your house under any circumstances.

But because someone who has no criminal record but chooses to hang out with people who may be fuckwits (and themselves are probably a fuckwit due to the fuckwitish rules that go along with joining these things) means you'll take their license of them because the public don't want them working in their house? Crazy.


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## peas_and_corn (10/1/14)

www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-10/qld-government-refuses-to-rule-out-anzac-day-bikie-raids/5193652

These laws are incredibly concerning


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/1/14)

I read part of the laws..Bikies are not mentioned at all

States that a group can be a legal or illegall group.

Very very wide approach. Even the police can come under the laws....


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## peas_and_corn (11/1/14)

Yeah I read the text as well, incredibly open definition. A criminal organisation can be three people sitting at a table


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## Northside Novice (11/1/14)

Texas


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## pcmfisher (11/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I read part of the laws..Bikies are not mentioned at all
> 
> States that a group can be a legal or illegall group.
> 
> Very very wide approach. Even the police can come under the laws....


What about the Catholic Church?


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## Black Devil Dog (11/1/14)

Easy fix, don't be a member of a drug dealing bikie gang.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

The problem you dont need to be part of a drug dealing bikie gang for these laws to apply to you.


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## manticle (11/1/14)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Easy fix, don't be a member of a drug dealing bikie gang.


Did you read the article?


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

Those laws easly apply to your local brewclub. And if you dont think they do, you should read the legislation.


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## bradsbrew (11/1/14)

I know it does seem to be going a bit too far but ask the family of the innocent person who got shot at the gold coast shopping centre during an argument between gangs or the people who witnessed the murder at an airport or the patrons that cant go to certain pubs because the bikies have taken over the bar etc etc. I know all bikies are not the same and the action seems a bit extreme. If only they would put the same efforts in to the drunken violence that is taking and destroying lives and families.


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## brewtas (11/1/14)

The family of an innocent bystander aren't in a good place to comment on laws. There are already laws in place to deal with the situation without adding new ones that have plenty of scope for abuse.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

And its the element of abuse that is the problem. The government is now dictating to the judicary.

The Judicary are supposed to be seperate from government. That is one of the fundamentals of law and government.

The government can state that "insert group here" are a criminal organisation without any need or form of proof and Judges cannot queastion this. They must sentance based on what the law says, regardless if the Judge sees that the law is incorrect.

Hypotheticaly: How would you feel as a home brewer if the government said you are not able to have meetings because they deem it as a criminal group simply because Joe Bloggs kicked up a stink about some drunken brewers at a meeting and it could be percived that you may be involved in criminal activity. It maybe completly legal etc, but the government does not need any proof to say that your club meeting is not an ilegall activity.


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## Black Devil Dog (11/1/14)

manticle said:


> Did you read the article?


Yeah mate.


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## manticle (11/1/14)

Then you would see that it applies to more than just people who belong to drug dealing, outlawed organisations.


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## Black Devil Dog (11/1/14)

Quote: "State Secretary Peter Simpson said members with links to criminal motorcycle gangs had begun to raise concerns with him.............................."

Couldn't see any mention of home brewing clubs in the article.


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## browndog (11/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And its the element of abuse that is the problem. The government is now dictating to the judicary.
> 
> The Judicary are supposed to be seperate from government. That is one of the fundamentals of law and government.
> 
> ...


Don't worry Stu, it is not 1938, I think law abiding citizens will be OK, even home brewers (as long as they don't have links to outlaw motorcycle gangs)


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

I can understand your point Browndog, yes, they get up and say " These laws are only designed for bikies", the point is that the way they are written is very broad. Sure, we can be cynical and say "yeah but we are law abiding citizens", but what happens when they start to use the laws beyond the realm of "they are designed for bikies". The legislation affords the government to be able to do this. 

Dont get me wrong. I am not a bikie,dont mix and dont care. My point is about the underlying power of an elected government to start branding people and groups at will, without scrutiny or evidence.


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## browndog (11/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I can understand your point Browndog, yes, they get up and say " These laws are only designed for bikies", the point is that the way they are written is very broad. Sure, we can be cynical and say "yeah but we are law abiding citizens", but what happens when they start to use the laws beyond the realm of "they are designed for bikies". The legislation affords the government to be able to do this.
> 
> Dont get me wrong. I am not a bikie,dont mix and dont care. My point is about the underlying power of an elected government to start branding people and groups at will, without scrutiny or evidence.


It won't happen. Its 2013. Law abiding citizens have been complaining for yonks about shit going on and nothing being done about it and when a gov, decides to get heavy on crime people start jumping up and down, Bring it on I say, and maybe when my kids are grown up I won't have to worry so much about them getting into drugs or being king hit by some macho fuckwit out on the town and thinking their above the law and better than everyone around them, bring it on,
While they are at it, mandatory life sentence for the coward punchers that kill people.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Quote: "State Secretary Peter Simpson said members with links to criminal motorcycle gangs had begun to raise concerns with him.............................."
> 
> Couldn't see any mention of home brewing clubs in the article.


So what if they did

They legislation does not make mention of bikies. Simply because they know they cant do that. 

Just because "Home Brewers" are not mentioned, does not automaticaly exclude us, or the local RSL Bowls club from the action of the law.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

browndog said:


> It won't happen. Its 2013. Law abiding citizens have been complaining for yonks about shit going on and nothing being done about it and when a gov, decides to get heavy on crime people start jumping up and down, Bring it on I say, and maybe when my kids are grown up I won't have to worry so much about them getting into drugs or being king hit by some macho fuckwit out on the town and thinking their above the law and better than everyone around them, bring it on,


The "Bikie laws" are not going to stop some macho fuckwit from harming your kids on a night out.

Even you know that


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## philmud (11/1/14)

browndog said:


> Don't worry Stu, it is not 1938, I think law abiding citizens will be OK, even home brewers (as long as they don't have links to outlaw motorcycle gangs)


If you're happy to have such potentially powerful legislation in the hands of people who tell you to trust them to do the right thing with it, then I reckon you're naive. If they had intended it not to be available for other applications, they'd have been more specific. As others have said, there are existing laws to deal with crimes that bikies commit.


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## manticle (11/1/14)

browndog said:


> It won't happen. Its 2013. Law abiding citizens have been complaining for yonks about shit going on and nothing being done about it and when a gov, decides to get heavy on crime people start jumping up and down, Bring it on I say, and maybe when my kids are grown up I won't have to worry so much about them getting into drugs or being king hit by some macho fuckwit out on the town and thinking their above the law and better than everyone around them, bring it on,
> While they are at it, mandatory life sentence for the coward punchers that kill people.


So if an electrician doesn't get his license, your kids will be made safer from the temptation to take drugs?

Your kids won't get punched up?

Drugs and punching people up are already illegal. This won't make your kids any safer and 2013 or not, politicians still regularly try and pass legislation that makes no sense.

I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that the poor bikie gangs should just be left alone to deal methamphetamine to teenagers - just questioning the efficacy of this legislation in actually combatting that.


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## bradsbrew (11/1/14)

This is just my opinion but I see it as a government that is just shutting down a section of the community that has caused more harm than good. Its a strike against known illegal activity, the only "naive" people are the ones that think the criminal bikie gangs are being hard done by. All they are doing is making a certain corridor for illegal activity very uncomfortable just like that group has made many people uncomfortable for a long time. The gold coast is fucked because of the different gangs and drug trade that has been allowed to get to the level it is at because of loopholes and corruption.
I see that the laws have been written so as that certain groups cannot claim that they are being victimized, if the people writing these laws stated bikies, bikies , bikies that just enables them to claim they are being victimized. These gangs have a great legal team and can afford it due to the illegal dealings.
If these laws were used for a local club that was anything other than a CBG the government would be gone very quickly. People seem to forget very quickly that the christmas bikie run for the childrens hospital was done same as every other year under these new laws.


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## browndog (11/1/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> If you're happy to have such potentially powerful legislation in the hands of people who tell you to trust them to do the right thing with it, then I reckon you're naive. If they had intended it not to be available for other applications, they'd have been more specific. As others have said, there are existing laws to deal with crimes that bikies commit.


I'm naive, that made me chuckle.


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## browndog (11/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The "Bikie laws" are not going to stop some macho fuckwit from harming your kids on a night out.
> 
> Even you know that


 I should have said "macho fuckwit on drugs" The bikies are selling the drugs that these jerks are buying Stu.


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## browndog (11/1/14)

manticle said:


> So if an electrician doesn't get his license, your kids will be made safer from the temptation to take drugs?
> 
> Your kids won't get punched up?
> 
> ...


The current laws are not working ..... harsher measures are needed, or the courts start doing their job. Stu has already complained of political interference with the courts. If they won't up hold the law then bring in harsher laws.


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## manticle (11/1/14)

I don't understand how these laws do anything whatsoever to target the drug trade.

The problem is not lack of laws. There's no loophole that allows bikies to sell drugs to schoolkids or old women in homes and making new laws that are entirely irrelevant to enforcing the original laws does nothing.

If laws are being broken, enforce them - don't write new ones to look like you are doing something.

The emotive arguments about people being gunned down in shopping centres are all well and good but does this bit of legislation do ANYTHING whatsoever to prevent that? Shooting people is already illegal. This law is about preventing people getting their trade licenses renewed.

2 questions.

What is this legislation trying to achieve?
Will it be effective in achieving that outcome?

3rd question would be 'is there a better way of trying to do that?' but I'm happy to stick to 2 for now.

@browndog - it's not the laws that aren't working - it's the processes around enforcing those - whether policing, prosecution, sentencing, whatever. Writing new laws rather than fixing the processes around existing ones is counter intuitive. It's political mileage being made by people who want to look like they are taking action rather than actually taking it.

Laws against shooting people aren't working so we'll stop people who may know someone with a gun from being able to purchase eggs. That'll show 'em.

I still want to know how this particular law is going to make any difference to whether or not your kids get offered drugs or are at risk of assault.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

browndog said:


> I should have said "macho fuckwit on drugs" The bikies are selling the drugs that these jerks are buying Stu.


It would be great if it was just the bikies selling the drugs. Unfortunatly its not, and the drugs are allways going to be sold. 

Even the police know that its not the bikies responsible for the majority of drug distribution. Its because they are "noticable" that causes the percieved problem

They are an easy target. And politicians like easy targets.


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## browndog (11/1/14)

The gov. obviously know more than we do about what the bikies are up to. Otherwise, why would they be targeting poor old tradies? Anything the government does to get rid of associations that rely on the drug trade for income is going to make the world a safer place for my kids. Less drug fucked people walking around the streets at night.. the safer my kids will be when they are old enough to go out on their own. How hard is that to comprehend?


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## bradsbrew (11/1/14)

Manticle,Q1. in QLD the drug trade is pretty much fed by the CBG's, yes you get your independent dealer that has grown his own or whatever but the majority can be traced back to them. The CBG's have fought for their business for a long time, without going into to much detail I remember a certain "roundhouse" in mackay having a shoot out around 1996/7 between the renegades, rebels and odens. They all wanted one thing, guess what that was. much the same as recent activity between 2 CBG's on the road to bribie island, another shootout.
Its all about stomping out the violence and the business associated with wholesale drug trafficing, drugs will always be around and people will always choose whether or not they will be a stoner or a junkie. The legislation has allowed the law the freedom to do what they can to stop a major player in this trade.
Yes, it could be seen that they are just sending the gangs underground, but that does slow them down. Have not heard of a bikie war or clubhouse bombing/burning since the new laws were introduced either.
Hopefully Q2 will be answered in due time.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

And I will qualify my statements due to the fact that I have family in the police force, who have worked in the area of drug enforcement.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

Brad...It is no longer the domain of bikies....

1996/7 is a long time ago.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

bradsbrew said:


> Manticle,Q1. in QLD the drug trade is pretty much fed by the CBG's, yes you get your independent dealer that has grown his own or whatever but the majority can be traced back to them. The CBG's have fought for their business for a long time, without going into to much detail I remember a certain "roundhouse" in mackay having a shoot out around 1996/7 between the renegades, rebels and odens. They all wanted one thing, guess what that was. much the same as recent activity between 2 CBG's on the road to bribie island, another shootout.
> Its all about stomping out the violence and the business associated with wholesale drug trafficing, drugs will always be around and people will always choose whether or not they will be a stoner or a junkie. The legislation has allowed the law the freedom to do what they can to stop a major player in this trade.
> Yes, it could be seen that they are just sending the gangs underground, but that does slow them down. Have not heard of a bikie war or clubhouse bombing/burning since the new laws were introduced either.
> Hopefully Q2 will be answered in due time.


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## bradsbrew (11/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Brad...It is no longer the domain of bikies....
> 
> 1996/7 is a long time ago.


Stu that was just a reference to an issue I was close to. And to confirm it was the Odins and Outlaws, renegades had been booted out of town by then. ( by other gangs) The bribie road one was a year or so ago and the club house fire bombings were very recent.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

bradsbrew said:


> Manticle,Q1. in QLD the drug trade is pretty much fed by the CBG's, yes you get your independent dealer that has grown his own or whatever but the majority can be traced back to them. The CBG's have fought for their business for a long time, without going into to much detail I remember a certain "roundhouse" in mackay having a shoot out around 1996/7 between the renegades, rebels and odens. They all wanted one thing, guess what that was. much the same as recent activity between 2 CBG's on the road to bribie island, another shootout.
> Its all about stomping out the violence and the business associated with wholesale drug trafficing, drugs will always be around and people will always choose whether or not they will be a stoner or a junkie. The legislation has allowed the law the freedom to do what they can to stop a major player in this trade.
> Yes, it could be seen that they are just sending the gangs underground, but that does slow them down. Have not heard of a bikie war or clubhouse bombing/burning since the new laws were introduced either.
> Hopefully Q2 will be answered in due time.


You know little ....


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## bradsbrew (11/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You know little ....


OK.

I could "qualify" my statements but choose not to. I am out of this convo............


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## manticle (11/1/14)

Sorry BD I think you're drawing a long bow. It's actually very difficult to comprehend how this law equates to making safer streets or will affect the drug trade one iota. Considering how long drugs have been around and how powerful those protecting the trade have traditionally been, how refusing renewal of licenses to electricians will make one iota of difference to drug manufacture, supply or use is completely beyond me.

The government obviously knows more than we do? Do you trust them on absolutely every level or are there occasions when you think someone in power has got something tits up?

Forget about bikies, drugs, libs vs labor or whatever for a second. Do you always trust in those in power or do you sometimes question an idea or decision by an authority?

I'm not suggesting for a moment that the drug trade as it stands (controlled by organised crime) should be allowed to run rampant but for christ's sake make laws that make sense (or enforce the existing ones properly) and actually combat it. This is like pissing in the wind and hoping the lemon tree somehow gets enough of a spray to last through the next hot summer.

@brad: Stomping out violence is a nice idea. Refusing someone a license to install wiring is going to achieve that how? I don't get the logical association.


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## browndog (11/1/14)

Well, all I can say Manticle, Stu and some other bloke look in the mirror and say "thank god I don't live in Queensland" I'm pretty happy right where I am and I think Brad is too.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

Manticle...bang on

There are multiple laws to deal with the problems that exist.

The government is taking the easy "win votes" political method.

Its the fact that these laws are now available for abuse by government that is the issue. They can be used for political advantage and that should be of concern.

I suggest reading the actuall legislation passed in full


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## pk.sax (11/1/14)

It's fear. Fear of total dominance and taking a person's life out of their hands for the smallest offence if that is within the purview of this law. This law feeds on the fear amongst the public of bikie gangs and goes on to paint bikies as a diseased community that people should try to stay away from. Like they were lepers. Or had AIDS. If the law could make an electrician with a minor tie to a bikie club lose his ticket that is going to send home a message to everyone else that associates with a bikie club to stay away.

The government is targeting association instead of crimes committed by members of such association. It is like saying that a driver hired by a criminal to drive him from place to place is also guilty of a crime even though he never commits any crime on his own. The law is a clear assault on civil liberty. Maybe next they will tell everyone that people with mullets that belong to hunting clubs are criminals because some mullet wearing people were found dealing. Next thing the cops would be chasing anyone with a mullet that is meeting another couple of them.

Being punched in the face has nothing to do with bikies. If the law on drug dealers is soft then strengthen that. Make the penalties harsher. Stop letting 'first' time offenders get off so easily. People believe they can get away with crimes by playing victim, that process needs to be fixed, not additional obnoxious laws.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

browndog said:


> Well, all I can say Manticle, Stu and some other bloke look in the mirror and say "thank god I don't live in Queensland" I'm pretty happy right where I am and I think Brad is too.


Browndog....that is a shallow outlook. I have nothing against QLD as a whole, or anyone who lives there. 

Dont worry, I have the same issues with laws in NSW,Vic,Tas,SA,Wa that place the government above law,and use "Law" to restrict the right of people in general to be able to associate and be free from percieved bias.


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## Feldon (11/1/14)

The current anti-bikie laws are a proof of concept with wider ramifications. They are designed in part for governments to gauge how far they can go in removing human rights for the ‘greater good’ of society.

A hypothetical scenario that should strike a chord with readers of this forum is the following:

Scenario.
The resources boom goes into decline.
Government revenue falls and unemployment rises.
Beer sales, already in decline for years, fall to levels that threaten the ongoing viability of the major breweries.
Homebrewing increases as consequence of severe economic hardship in society.

Big Liquor (breweries, hotel/club owners etc.) lobbies government to ban homebrewing claiming that it:
- leads to domestic violence
- exposes children to easy access to alcohol
- preconditions children to emulate the excessive drinking habits of their elders,
- deprives the government of taxation.
Government commissions academic research to focus on the social and economic impact of unfettered homebrewing.
Government confidentially briefs mainstream media of its plans to outlaw homebrewing, and to launch an anti-homebrew advertising campaign(viz. Quit campaign, AIDS campaign), worth hundreds of millions to commercial media, to bring the perils of homebrewing to the attention of the population.
Commercial media run advance editorial in support of the government agenda; ABC/SBS do likewise as their government master’s command – all of which preconditions the public to accept the forthcoming ban.
Government, to much fanfare, announces a ban on homebrewing, and outlaws all forms of public association in the form of homebrew clubs, internet forums, LHBSs etc., using as its pretext the success of the anti-bikie laws.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

practicalfool said:


> Stop letting 'first' time offenders get off so easily. People believe they can get away with crimes by playing victim, that process needs to be fixed, not additional obnoxious laws.


I had to go to court as a witness for thr DPP against the **** that was part of a trio that walked into my house at 4am when I was asleep and assualted me.

I was told straight up that the judge would convict him, BUT...the Judge would give a minimal sentance because they didnt want to have any appeals against them for harsh sentencing....

Not the Judges fault, was explained as more political. The politicians like to use law & order for political gain. 

The new laws have got **** all to do with actually stopping crime, more to do with a "we are getting toughter"

The laws are there, but politicians like to make new ones to show the "people" that they are "doing" someting.


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## philmud (11/1/14)

browndog said:


> I'm naive, that made me chuckle.


Seemed more polite than smug or glib


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## manticle (11/1/14)

browndog said:


> Well, all I can say Manticle, Stu and some other bloke look in the mirror and say "thank god I don't live in Queensland" I'm pretty happy right where I am and I think Brad is too.


Because organised crime including drugs and violence doesn't exist in Victoria? We have no issues with Bikie gangs here? A major hell's angels clubhouse is within walking distance of my place. Stopping an electrician from installing a circuit breaker won't do a lot to change that. I can buy drugs, take drugs and get punched in the head any Saturday night, should I choose to do so or be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe I should confiscate all the carpenters' chisels as a safeguard?


You have managed to entirely skirt around what I was asking and ignore my points completely. I have asked what does this legislation do to prevent violent crime, organised crime, drug manufacture or make streets safer in any way whatsoever and you have not provided one specific answer. Brad at least tried to address some of the points I made.

I repeat - I am not supporting any organised crime organisation or their activities in any way, shape or form - merely questioning the efficacy of this set of legislative ideas in combatting what you think it is combatting.


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## browndog (11/1/14)

manticle said:


> Because organised crime including drugs and violence doesn't exist in Victoria? We have no issues with Bikie gangs here? A major hell's angels clubhouse is within walking distance of my place. Stopping an electrician from installing a circuit breaker won't do a lot to change that. I can buy drugs, take drugs and get punched in the head any Saturday night, should I choose to do so or be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe I should confiscate all the carpenters' chisels as a safeguard?
> 
> 
> You have managed to entirely skirt around what I was asking and ignore my points completely. I have asked what does this legislation do to prevent violent crime, organised crime, drug manufacture or make streets safer in any way whatsoever and you have not provided one specific answer. Brad at least tried to address some of the points I made.
> ...


see post 40 bloke, I, being a non paranoid person and believing that the gov. of the day have their citizens best interests in mind, believe they know something we do not. I don't believe politicians in modern day society have hidden agendas to subjugate society. There must be a very good reason they are doing what they are doing Manticle. There will be another election in 18 months or so and they want to win it. I am pretty sure if the voters think they are a bunch of fascists they are not going to get re-elected. I bet my swingers they are not doing this because they don't like tradies.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

I find it interesting that those "for" the new laws have not actually taken the time to understand what and how these laws can actually affect them.


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## philmud (11/1/14)

It's lazy legislation designed to mitigate the need for a properly resourced police force by granting arbitrary powers to the judiciary. Maybe they won't be misused, but certainly they could be. If they are, then I bet it's not organised crime gangs that will be in the cross-hairs but activist/protest groups. Probably won't bother the apologists here, but it will be anti-democratic and it will be fucked.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/1/14)

browndog said:


> see post 40 bloke, I, being a non paranoid person and believing that the gov. of the day have their citizens best interests in mind, believe they know something we do not. I don't believe politicians in modern day society have hidden agendas to subjugate society. There must be a very good reason they are doing what they are doing Manticle. There will be another election in 18 months or so and they want to win it. I am pretty sure if the voters think they are a bunch of fascists they are not going to get re-elected.


Got nothing to do with the media....

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Heaven forbid


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## browndog (11/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I find it interesting that those "for" the new laws have not actually taken the time to understand what and how these laws can actually affect them.G


on that note, I'm done in this conversation too.


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## philmud (11/1/14)

browndog said:


> the gov. of the day have their citizens best interests in mind, believe they know something we do not....There must be a very good reason they are doing what they are doing...I am pretty sure if the voters think they are a bunch of fascists they are not going to get re-elected.


Ha hahahahaha. Oh my god! Yes, there must be a very good reason and you as a constituent don't have a right or a need to know about that. ****. Me. Dead.


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## manticle (11/1/14)

browndog said:


> see post 40 bloke, I, being a non paranoid person and believing that the gov. of the day have their citizens best interests in mind, believe they know something we do not. I don't believe politicians in modern day society have hidden agendas to subjugate society. There must be a very good reason they are doing what they are doing Manticle. There will be another election in 18 months or so and they want to win it. I am pretty sure if the voters think they are a bunch of fascists they are not going to get re-elected. I bet my swingers they are not doing this because they don't like tradies.


Regardless of conspiracy theories , in which I'm not a big believer (although I think govts have their own interests at heart rather than citizens' - conspiracy no, cynical yes), governments can still get stuff wrong.
I think they have got this wrong. They are not beyond criticism and they are not infallible.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/1/14)

browndog said:


> on that note, I'm done in this conversation too.


Browndog.

I sincerly hope you take the time to actually read and unferstand the new legislation, and not what is written in the media.


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## peas_and_corn (12/1/14)

Here's my general thoughts: if bikie violence is a big problem, then take care of it directly- contribute a significant amount of resources to policing so that the assaults, shootings and so forth are more likely to find all those involved and prosecute. I have no objection to the sentiment that illegal activity should be tackled, and this applies to people who are not in bike gangs.

However, this legislation gives the government the power to arbitrarily prosecute people purely on the basis of who they spend time with, rather than whether they actually partake in illegal activities themselves. Here's a thought- if a community group wants to oppose a project the government is politically invested in, it would be incredibly tempting to find a way to arrest them under these laws, even if a prosecution attempt fails because it would have successfully broken up the opposition.


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## brewtas (12/1/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> It's lazy legislation designed to mitigate the need for a properly resourced police force by granting arbitrary powers to the judiciary. Maybe they won't be misused, but certainly they could be. If they are, then I bet it's not organised crime gangs that will be in the cross-hairs but activist/protest groups. Probably won't bother the apologists here, but it will be anti-democratic and it will be fucked.


This is exactly it. A legal system protects the innocent by prosecuting criminals but it's also meant to protect the innocent by keeping them innocent and not violating their rights. Having ambiguous laws with sweeping powers is always a bad thing, no matter how valid the original target law may seem because it can be used to attack the innocent. This isn't about a hypothetical or conspiracy theory, this is a principle of how you approach making laws and if these kinds of laws keep getting passed, it won't be good for anyone.


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## Liam_snorkel (12/1/14)

Here's the VLAD bill if anyone wants to have a laugh/cry. https://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/bills/54pdf/2013/viclawassdisb13.pdf


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## goomboogo (12/1/14)

There's been a lot said in this thread about drugs and Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs. They have a heavy influence but; approximately 85% of the manufacture and supply of illicit substances in Queensland is carried out by people with no association to the groups on the Queensland Government's list of proscribed entities.


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## browndog (12/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Browndog.
> 
> I sincerly hope you take the time to actually read and unferstand the new legislation, and not what is written in the media.


"I find it interesting that those "for" the new laws have not actually taken the time to understand what and how these laws can actually affect them.G"

Stu, it's somewhat ignorant of you to assume because people do not agree with your line of thought, then they have no idea what they are talking about. I believe I have sufficient knowledge on this matter thanks to doing some reading and also at a recent club meeting having one of the members who's wife is a Lawyer, stand up and give up a 15 minute lecture on the implications of the new laws for Home Brew Clubs.


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## manticle (12/1/14)

To be fair BD, suggesting it must all be OK because the government knows something we don't and they are only ever benevolent doesn't make you look amazingly informed.

Maybe you are but your initial statements suggest you are just happy to trust in the authorities because they'd never do anything stupid or bad.


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## philmud (12/1/14)

browndog said:


> I believe I have sufficient knowledge on this matter thanks to doing some reading and also at a recent club meeting having one of the members who's wife is a Lawyer, stand up and give up a 15 minute lecture on the implications of the new laws for Home Brew Clubs.


From what you appear to have taken away, I gather this would have been a fairly anti-climatic lecture.

"So in conclusion fellas, RDWHAHB"


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## Liam_snorkel (12/1/14)

There are a few blokes who have been in solitary for over a month, just for having a beer at the pub. Completely insane. It's very simple - the government can't decided who it does and doesn't like and declare them criminals without actually having committed a crime. The govt knows this, and knows that it won't stack up in the high court, and is also why they didn't consult the bar association in drafting the legislation. The high court challenge will cost us a shitload and they will drag it out, basically as a PR exercise to say that they are 'tough on crime'. 
The only other ulterior motive that I can think of is that the challenge won't be over before the G20 - and all they will need to do is add the list of G20 specific offences to the VLAD prescribed list, and you could see people being locked up for 10 years for staging a protest.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/1/14)

Quote

" The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed."


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## Mattress (12/1/14)

Don't worry Queensland, Clive's coming to the rescue.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-12/palmer-vows-to-repeal-all-newman-legislation/5196196

I love how he states he will put forward one bill, to get rid of all legislation introduced by the Newman government.

Says a lot really, probably about both parties.


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## Liam_snorkel (12/1/14)

Hahaha


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## Black Devil Dog (12/1/14)




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## Ducatiboy stu (12/1/14)

That will be interesting


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## Liam_snorkel (12/1/14)

Black Devil Dog said:


>


No, it's not, because the legislation will be overturned. It's just disappointing when politicians who aren't really that bright, pick unnecessary fights with the judiciary at our expense. The "ivory tower" rhetoric that Campbell was saying a month or two ago was just silly. If the actual goal was to increase sentences for gang related crimes then they would have done it properly in consultation with the judiciary, instead of drafting up something so ridiculous that it was destined to be overturned. They will appeal and drag it out and this shit is going to cost us hundreds of millions of dollars.


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## Bribie G (12/1/14)

Not trying to do a "told you so you sonnafobitch" or anything, but I realised that things were going to go pear shaped in QLD, and that's one of the main reasons I fled south of the border in 2012.

I'm probably one of the few people on the forum who actually lived in QLD during the first dictatorship. I used to write letters to the local paper, the editor was a member in my branch of Lions club and he took me aside and said "Mike, you haven't been naturalised yet, I pulled a couple of your letters because, if you don't know, everyone who writes to the papers gets a file opened on them by the special branch. Because you aren't yet an Aussie citizen, that last letter could get you arrested and probably deported".

The letter in question was asking why Russ Hinze had problems with speaking recognisable English " you could of went there... "

Dead right, I'd have been up in court. I could see a return to those days, I expect the special branch are dusting off my file as we speak. :unsure:


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/1/14)

How dare the government spy on its citizens. Thought that only happened with the NAZI party..oh ......wait.....hangon a minute


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## Feldon (13/1/14)

This just came up on YouTube. "Queensland Police Harrassment" its called.

Bikie being pulled over when stopping for petrol.

What a waste of police resources.

Bloke's done nothing wrong either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TMOiMopMCU


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## manticle (13/1/14)

Think of all the kids that will never pull a bong now though.


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## pk.sax (13/1/14)

Now I know what I have to do when I get a position of power. I'll declare bacon illegal and have the cops harass everyone that goes to a cafe and orders bacon. Simple. Wipe out pig eaters through state intimidation. Win for vegos. Yee haw.


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## peas_and_corn (13/1/14)

I'd say making bacon illegal would be cause for instant lynch mobs


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## Parks (13/1/14)

I'm all for stamping out organised crime but that is a ******* joke.


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## zappa (13/1/14)

Apparently there's a shortage of cops in Queensland...

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk


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## pcmfisher (13/1/14)

When the legislation got thrown out of the high court here in S.A., Media Mike (Rann) just shrugged his shoulders and mumbled something like "never mind, its only tax payers money.....but we tied hard........."


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## warra48 (13/1/14)

That's just unbelievable.
What can that approach possibly achieve, other than to tie up taxpayer funded Police resources?
Some smart lawyer could make a nice case with that for harassment.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/14)

And remember,the Police are not above the law. Their job is to enforce, not interprete. Judges are the ones that interprete the law.

But the QLD police have allways had a reputation for being a law unto themselves.


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## Liam_snorkel (13/1/14)

Not really. They only need reasonable suspicion that you are associated with a club and they can detain you. If you refuse, you get done for obstructing police. If you ride a harley, wear a vest, or have tattoos there isn't much you can do.


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## AndrewQLD (13/1/14)

I was quite surprised to learn that at a recent motorcycle fund raising rally for disadvantaged kids here in Bundaberg there were a couple of uniformed officers and a couple of plains clothes officers taking down all the license plate numbers of the participants, I was then shocked to learn that the red cross ladies who were organising the event and taking the event registration slips were forced to hand over all the registration slips to the police, they were told they would be returned after they were copied.

To be honest I have no objection to criminals being treated this way but it sucks that any joe blow will be subjected to this kind of scrutiny.

And from memory there was only two of the riders who were associated with a motorcyle club, and they had no criminal record.


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## dent (13/1/14)

It is only a matter of time before there are enough numberplate/RFID scanners out there to track the movement of everyone, all the time.


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## Liam_snorkel (13/1/14)

I go past one on my way to & from work every day and give it the finger.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> I was quite surprised to learn that at a recent motorcycle fund raising rally for disadvantaged kids here in Bundaberg there were a couple of uniformed officers and a couple of plains clothes officers taking down all the license plate numbers of the participants, I was then shocked to learn that the red cross ladies who were organising the event and taking the event registration slips were forced to hand over all the registration slips to the police, they were told they would be returned after they were copied.
> 
> To be honest I have no objection to criminals being treated this way but it sucks that any joe blow will be subjected to this kind of scrutiny.
> 
> And from memory there was only two of the riders who were associated with a motorcyle club, and they had no criminal record.


No persecution or harrasment there.

What rights did the police have to take and copy the registration slips...


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## AndrewQLD (13/1/14)

I have no idea Stu, I feel that it does infringe on our privacy though.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/14)

Your Honour, he rides a motorcyle and it is our opinion that he is a violent criminal. We have no basis for this or any proof other than the fact he rides a motorcycle


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## Liam_snorkel (13/1/14)

how do you know she is a witch he is a criminal?

SHE HE LOOKS LIKE ONE


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/14)

dent said:


> It is only a matter of time before there are enough numberplate/RFID scanners out there to track the movement of everyone, all the time.


Well....in Sydney they are using Etags to track vehicles thru the city in order to create traffic flow maps. There was something on Catalyst (?) about it. Was interesting from a mapping and survey point of view in order work out where trafic was coming from and going to.


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## warra48 (13/1/14)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Not really. They only need reasonable suspicion that you are associated with a club and they can detain you. If you refuse, you get done for obstructing police. If you ride a harley, *wear a vest*, or have tattoos there isn't much you can do.


Interesting to see the coppers themselves were mostly wearing "vests" adorned with all sorts of official looking paraphernalia. 
Who is there to harass, intimidate and arrest them?


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## goomboogo (13/1/14)

Recently, a few men were detained and questioned because Police officers said the men were 'muscled and had tattoos'. Football players may want to rethink any plans for public socialising.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/14)

goomboogo said:


> Recently, a few men were detained and questioned because Police officers said the men were 'muscled and had tattoos'.


Obviously criminals.

Notice how few "bikies" have been arrested/detained. There not stupid. They are doing what they have allways done, and that is keeping a low profile and letting the police & government chase fairies around the garden.


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## browndog (13/1/14)

Stu you will be happy to know that I don't agree with this either. The coppers should be able to pull someone over once, then figure out they are a good guy and leave them alone in the future.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/1/14)

If only that was the case.....would you be happy if you were ridding along, minding your own business only to stoped and immediatly treated like a criminal just because you happen to be on a bike...


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## Airgead (14/1/14)

goomboogo said:


> Football players may want to rethink any plans for public socialising.


Given that half the news last year seemed to be about football players getting drunk and antisocial, that may be for the best...


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/1/14)

I have no sympathy for drunken footballers.

I have a few mates who are publicans, and they would preffer a pub full of bikers than drunken football players who carry on drunk being dickheads. There worste day is usually mad monday. 

Its interesting to note that these publicans do not know each other but all have the view and issues.


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## goomboogo (14/1/14)

Airgead, I don't disagree.


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## Mattress (14/1/14)

This guy

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151909219728226


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## Liam_snorkel (14/1/14)

Jarrod Bleijie introduced "god save the queen" to the opening of every session of state parliament.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/1/14)

And he also needed "assistance" to pass his bar exam.....

One has to wonder how a solicitor with 5 yrs experience can become the chief law maker for a state government


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## Liam_snorkel (14/1/14)

He did his law degree as an articles clerk (basically an apprentice, instead of actually studying at uni - rare and hard to get these days as the employer has to be convinced of their education being equivalent to university study) doing conveyancing at a small firm on the Sunshine Coast. Newman needed a patsy, and voilà!


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/1/14)

Be interesting to know what..or if...you need qualifications to be an Atterney General.


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## Liam_snorkel (14/1/14)

None actually.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/1/14)

Cleaver Green would run rings around him. And most likely be more honest.


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## manticle (14/1/14)

Mattress said:


> This guy
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151909219728226


I'll bet he has a secret meth lab. You never know with these vest wearing types.

What's that say on those medals eh? What do they mean? It's hot mate. Why are you wearing medals? Don't you respect politicians?

Reminds me of Jello Biafra talking about police raiding his house looking for obscene material.

"What are all those pictures of missing milk carton kids doing on your kitchen wall? Do you know where they are?"


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## zappa (14/1/14)

Prime example of why these VLAD laws are so dangerous. You can be "guilty by association", where association could mean having a beer with your brother and father at a pub.

http://pickeringpost.com/story/another-yandina-man/2546

Apparently, the first challenge to these laws is set to go before the high court within the next few weeks.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/1/14)

Nice how Larry Pickering assumes that the Gillard gov tried to "control" the media but is remarkably silent about Abbotts close association with the Murdoch press...

Anyways, back on topic guys. We are all now fully aware of how we must not let ourselves stray.


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## manticle (14/1/14)

My partner's uncle was once involved with the Hell's angels. Pretty sure I've had a beer with him at some point.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/1/14)

Your fucked then..Best be staying out of QLD.


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## Liam_snorkel (14/1/14)

Stay out of our nice clean state!


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## manticle (14/1/14)

Well I won't be wiring up any of your homes at any rate.


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## peas_and_corn (15/1/14)

Me neither. Though that could be because I'm not an electrician


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/1/14)

Next they will have border police checking that have we have the correct visa and no criminal records


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/1/14)

Glad this MP didnt get his way.

http://m.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/proposal-people-tattoos-go-police-register/1855284/


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## winkle (15/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Next they will have border police checking that have we have the correct visa and no criminal records


Wasn't that Petes' job???


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/1/14)

That only applies to swap meets. I think my visa is still valid


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## manticle (15/1/14)

**** I've got Tatts too. I will stay in Mexico with my heavyweight criminal friends.


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## manticle (15/1/14)

I also have a friend who belongs to a 'social' motorcycle club. On sundays they 'go for a ride'.


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## angus_grant (16/1/14)

manticle said:


> I also have a friend who belongs to a 'social' motorcycle club. On sundays they 'go for a ride'.


Reported as a known associate!


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## Screwtop (16/1/14)

God to Pope, could you describe that jacket you're wearing for me please????


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## Bridges (19/1/14)

Oh no, I think I'd better stay out of Queensland too.
Was just looking at my mill box and noticed the Marcato symbol has a little O.M.C. on it.
Do I own a product with links to an Outlaw Motorcycle Club?
NOOOO!!!!!


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/1/14)

Noticed an article in a qld paper where Campbell said " I am not happy that we had to introduce these laws and would have preffered not to..."

Now the cynic in me thinks that due to the LNP becoming more and more unpopular and his approval rating taking a steady nose dive that he is attempting to win over some support. Who says politics is not driven by approval ratings...


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## Airgead (20/1/14)

Some academic analysis - http://theconversation.com/the-end-justifies-the-means-why-queensland-is-losing-the-bikie-war-21948


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## Ducatiboy stu (20/1/14)

Yep. Bikies are 1%ers. Responsible for 1% of crime and arrests


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## philmud (22/1/14)

Six bikies arrested and charged in Mildura with drugs and weapons offenses. The same crimes you or I could be charged with. Crazy.


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## Feldon (14/11/14)

FYI - appeal against Qld's 'anti-bikie laws' tossed out of High Court.

*High Court rejects challenge to Queensland’s criminal gang laws*

The High Court has rejected a challenge to Queensland's criminal gang laws.
The majority of the High Court bench announced it had rejected the challenge to the validity of "certain provisions of the Criminal Code and the Liquor Act".
The decision
"The Court also held that the plaintiff, [Hells Angel member Stefan Kuczborski], lacked the standing to challenge the Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment Act (the VLAD Act) and certain provisions of the Criminal Code and the Bail Act introduced by the Criminal Law (Criminal Organisations Disruption) Amendment Act (the Disruption Act)," it announced in its summary.
History
The controversial laws were put in place last October, just weeks after a brawl in a Gold Coast mall involving bikie gang members.
Virtually overnight, belonging to one of the 26 outlaw motorcycle gangs essentially became a criminal act. Members and associates were banned from wearing their colours or patches in public, from gathering in groups of three or more or from working in various professions the government said were used for money laundering, which included tattoo parlours and tow-truck companies... [continues]

More at: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/high-court-rejects-challenge-to-queensland8217s-criminal-gang-laws-20141114-11mjmg.html#ixzz3J0b4jIj1


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