# Tooheys Old Black Ale



## Gout (27/8/03)

I want to make a similar beer to OLD.

Now i have a coopers Old dark ale kit
and most grain / LME / DME
using London Ale Wyeast (because its my only ale yeast )

Any idea's advice?
Now its not that i think Tooheys Old is the only dark ale i like, i tried it and liked it so a similar style beer would be great.

I have a nice stout so i dont want it to full on, but similar to Old


I will have GMK's "KILLKENNY" also brewing


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## jayse (27/8/03)

yours will be much better than the old.
using that can you dont need to add much in the way of specialty malt.just pale malt or extract with pale malt.
for this beer you want roasted malt as apposed to roasted barley in stout.
choc malt will darken it but the black malt will give it more of a bite.you want really need any body building or sweeting malt etc with the can and part mash.

i suggest for your first use the can plus 2.5 kg pale malt or subtract some pale malt for extract.and finish with an oz of EKG.

this is a brew i used to do all the time didnt even worry about putting in extra bittering hops the can provides for a good base just add some pale malt.
london ale is a perfect choice.
i use that with huge success in my porters it is very clean in dark beers to the point of outstanding commercial quality.


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## Gout (28/8/03)

Ok sounds good thanks Jayse,

Looks like the london yeast,
Old can, + 2.5kg pale grain, and some choc? (how much at a guess?) and should i add any roasted malt or not? if so qty?

thanks mate
looking forward to this beer now


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## jayse (28/8/03)

i wouldnt add any choc for your first if you think it needs more of a bite then next time add some black malt a few ounces.do you mean roast barley the choc and black malt is roast malt the difference is roast barley is not malted.and i dont think youll need any of that for a darky really you want malt complexity rather than roasty flavours,
a few ounces of choc will only properly darken it more and may add a red hue in the light.depending on how black it is to start with.
the roast barley in a small amount will also add to a red hue but go real easy with it if you use it.my porters dont use any roast barley at all only choc and black up to 250 g for a all grain or plain malt extract recipe.this adds a choc.coffee type flavour and nose but it is not really roasty at all.the black gives it a nice bitey black malt bitterness.but try and keep it so the black malt bitterness and bite do not dominate the beer.

so i really suggest just the can and pale malt.that will give you a good idea for your future batches once you make it and are drinking it post what you think.you may want more sweetness or you may want more bite.but this is one of my favourite part mash and hopped can brews like it is.although finishing hops arent really needed i,d add 1/2 oz NO MORE THAN A OZ. at 10 mins they wont come through that much but will add to the complexity.EKG are great or the mild earthy ones like northern brewer and fuggles but i much prefer EKG.
id stick with different base malts such as maybe add wheat to the mash next time or some munich malt that type of thing.rather than over do the dark stuff.

anyway cheers jayse


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## Gout (28/8/03)

thanks buddy good advice and i will run with the kit +2.5Kg and build / trial from there.

It fall's inline with another recipe i found with Old can +500g dark malt 500g dextrose.

thanks for your advise, as soon as the roller is finished i will crack away! and get her brewing!

Regards
Ben


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## badbillys (3/10/03)

Hi guys

i too have a tin of coopers Old dark ale and im trying for a tooheys old clone.
just a question re the yeast.. is it 1028 or 1318 or any other no i have missed... also would a white labs wlp002 be better?

Ben.. probably too soon to ask but how did it turn out and wot did u end up using in it? 

Cheers 
Billy


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## Gout (3/10/03)

I have not brewed it yet, most likly next week though, I will use the London Ale 1. Not sure of the number (i'm at work) but i dont get to worried about the different yeasts.

I have heard good results from this yeast in these beers.

I have even used it in a pale ale (had no other good ale yeast) so it will be interesting to see what it tastes like next to a American ale yeast.

The above recipe sould taste like old but better, fresher and more flavour


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## PostModern (3/10/03)

I made a really nice clone earlier this year.

Muntons Old Kit
500g Dark DME
500g Light DME
100g Brown Sugar
15g Fuggles.
Muntons kit yeast.

Boiled DME and sugar in 3L water for 45 mins, added kit can, boiled further 15 mins. Add hops 1 min. Rapid chilled. Poured into fermenter, top to 23L, pitched rehydrated yeast.

1 week primary, 2 weeks secondary.

Turned out beautiful. Much nicer than the Tooheys beer. MUCH nicer.


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## jayse (3/10/03)

badbilly
the london ale i use is wyeast1028.don't know about the whitelabs one.
the ferment should be as clean as a whistle.

all of these recipes on this thread will be better than old.mostly more complex full and malty.whereas old has more like a aussie beer feel and taste about it.to me anyway.


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## PostModern (3/10/03)

jayse, you're absolutely right. Tooheys old is definately part dextrose (like all Aussie megaswill) and seems to me to be hopped with POR. A much nicer porter-like beer is made by switching to all malt and fuggles hops. The result is a nice dark malty beer with a nicer hop aroma, like a true porter. Let's face it, POR was made to bitter beers cheaply, not for it's aromatics.


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## jayse (3/10/03)

yeah i saw the s.a brewing guys who do the brewing at a microbrewery here in adelaide use p.o.r for bittering alot (proberly all)of their beers.
and in a 800l batch they properly use the same amount of hops i use in a 40 litre batch.

i can't wait for my home grown p.o.r.
i reckon its not so much that they use p.o.r in the cheap swill but the other stuff they do to the beer which make it swill.p.o.r are actually a nice hop.

oh they don't even messure effiency in there micro and always end up way below mash in temp 62c when they are trying to hit 66c.
thats the joy of craft brewing at home much better control.


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## GMK (3/10/03)

Tooheys Old Clone Recipee.

Hi Guys, I make an Australian Dark that is similar to Tooheys old ....but better.
I t cam 3rd in the Nationals in 2001.

Recipee is ....
Beermakers Old (more mellower) or Coopers Dark.
250 gms of each of the following:
Lactose, Dark Brown Sugar
1kg of Amber Malt - LME.
25gms of Cascade for the boil
25gms of cascade for Dry Hopping.
10gms of Gypsum
Windsor Ale yeast (Prefferrred) or Londaon Ale yeast

Boil Lactose, LME, Sugar and hops for 20 mins.
Add to fermenter unstrained with can contents. Top upto 20 ltrs.
Ferment in primary for 7-10days.
Rack into secondary for 2 weeks and dry hop with Cascade Hops.

Bulk prime by filtering thru the in-line filter...and bootle.
Nice after 2 weeks but better after 6 weeks.

Usual conditions of using my recipes apply.

HAPPY BREWING.


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## deebee (3/10/03)

The beer that got me hooked on homebrewing was an attempt at a Tooheys Old clone. I had made a couple of batches of crap and then accidentally used this recipe

ESB old kit
Kilo of dark liquid malt
20g (from memory) fuggles for finishing
underfill fermenter

This was also my first non-sugar brew and i was amazed at how good it tasted compared to my previous brews. I kept a few to 6 months old and they were genuinely good homebrew. Like jayse says, a kit and some malt makes a good old dark ale. Old dark ales now make up about 25% of my brews now. Nowadays I don't use all dark malt, but different ratios of dark and light.

After you have made a few good dark ales, try Tooheys Old again and you won't remember it as the same beer. Lots of adjuncts and not much hops flavour in there. Cheaper, thinner, blander version of your own dark ale.


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## Jazman (3/10/03)

I love por i used it in my lawnmower beer and it is nice i hoped with another hope for aroma which was ok but it tasted goood so i will use por again


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## PostModern (3/10/03)

I bought a Tooheys Old at lunchtime as a result of this thread. It smelt like vomit and tasted like the homebrew I used to make in Uni - Kit + kilo of sucrose. I could barely finish the stuff, but I choked it down coz it was $3.40 for the glass. I remember thinking it was a great beer back then.... damn you homebrew. You bring me so much joy, yet destroy my treasured memories!


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## Trough Lolly (4/10/03)

PostModern - you're not wrong there!

I helped a mate out the other day and he got me a 6 pack of VB for my troubles - it had been ages since I last had one (>1yr) and so I chilled and popped one for old time's sake.

Absolutely flat, soapy, featureless crap!! :blink: :blink: I have never had to toss a homebrew yet (touch wood), but if I had made this, it would have been poured onto the back lawn!

I actually thought that they had gone bad and wanted to take them back to a bottle shop and yell at someone, until I realised that they were a gift and I couldn't!  

Oh boy, to think that I used to live on VB stubbies when I was younger!

Thank god for homebrewing  

TL

P.S. Anybody want 5 stubbies of VB?!


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## Jazman (4/10/03)

Pass you can have them or give them to the dog or the missus


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## jayse (5/10/03)

i'd drink em.


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## Trough Lolly (6/10/03)

Sorry Jayse,

I got thirsty and slammed them down whilst watching the Grand Final last nite...

The game was so good, I forgot I was drinking VB and they were all gone by the end of the match!

Cheers,

TL :chug:


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## deebee (7/10/03)

VB (Emu, Carlton, Tooheys, XXXX, Fosters, West End etc) serving instructions.

Chill it to 0.1 degree C. 

Serve it with something very salty or with lots of chilli. 

Watch footy or somehow think of anything but your tastebuds.

"Hey this isn't too bad!"


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## manaen (9/3/06)

Does anyone have a AG recipe that is close to Old? I made a nice tasting robust porter two brews ago but I think it won't be to my mates liking. I want to give him a case of longnecks as a gift.


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## Tony (9/3/06)

here is what i would do.

cheers.

old

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.70
Anticipated OG: 1.047 Plato: 11.78
Anticipated EBC: 40.8
Anticipated IBU: 20.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
42.6 2.00 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 7
42.6 2.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
6.4 0.30 kg. JWM Caramalt Australia 1.036 50
4.3 0.20 kg. JWM Crystal 140 Australia 1.035 145
4.3 0.20 kg. TF Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 940

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
16.00 g. Pride of Ringwood Pellet 10.10 20.1 60 min.


Yeast
-----

WLP 001


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## mje1980 (9/3/06)

My last dark ale was a bloody ripper!, and was in the style of old, in fact i now call it south coast old. Here it is:

3.4 kg maris otter
200g dark crystal
120g carafa 1
100g home toasted pale ( 180c for 15 mins )
150g malanoiden
250g flaked maize/corn.


7g pacific gem 14.7% 60 min
35g willamette 4.9 ( FWH )


Essex ale yeast wlp




EDIT: was in a hurry before so didn't mention. The colour of this beer was almost exactly the same as tooheys old. It was that really nice garnet colour, totally clear as well. And taste?, well, it has to be one of the top 3 beers i have made all time hands down!!, and i dont drink that much dark beer, mainly bitters!.


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## manaen (9/3/06)

hmm interesting .. how do you think this recipe would go? based on tony's recipe but using what ingredients I have on hand:

2kg B&B Pale malt
2kg Weyermann Pilsner malt
0.5kg Caramunich I
0.25kg Chocolate

20g POR @ 60mins

Would Wyeast 1098 or US-56 yeast be any good?


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## bindi (9/3/06)

Just putting Tony's recipe into Beersmith now  I will have a go at that next week seeing I picked up some POR today for the first time, $20. for 1kg..After reading the posts last week about POR I will give it a run with Tonys receipe.


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## manaen (9/3/06)

1kg of POR for $20 ??? any more to be had??


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## bindi (9/3/06)

manaen said:


> 1kg of POR for $20 ??? any more to be had??
> [post="113578"][/post]​


Yep, he had 1kg left...Untill Tidalpete reads this <_<


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## Tony (9/3/06)

manaen............. sounds great, go for it.

Tooheys use a base grain and just 1 special roast grain from JW that adds the flavor and colour aparently but we cant buy it :angry:

If you taste it it is light to medium body with some swwetness and a definite chocolate character.

hense the Pale/Pils mix and the caramalt, crystal, choc mix.

caraminich 1 is only 100 ebc i think so should be great, you want sweet to ballance the bitter chocolate malt that is used for colour, thats the secret.

BALANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

balance sweet with roast, malt with hops and you have the perfect beer.

the recipe i came up with should do this, or come bloody close.

up to u now, thats the great part 

cheers and have fun.


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## manaen (12/3/06)

Well I ended up putting down my first attempt at a Tooheys Old clone, I used the following recipe:

AG Tooheys Old Clone
AG Mash, full boil, 2kg B&B Pale, 2kg Weyermann Pilsner, 500g Caramunich, 500g pale wheat, 200g Pale chocolate.
Pride of Ringwood 9% 20g @ 60 mins (20IBU), 90 min boil. 20L collected from kettle. S-23 dried yeast.
SG 1.052

After 48 hours it has dropped from 1.052 to 1.034 @ 12 deg C so seems to be going well. I have not had any success using larger yeasts before.

Now for the questions:

Going off my ingredients how do I work out what efficiency I ended up with?

People in the past have told me that when your brew gets down to 1.020 you should increase the temperature to room temp to allow for a diactyl rest? is this what I should do .. I do I just let it ferment out as normal.

Do you have to CC brews done with a larger yeast? How does this affect the taste?


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## Stuster (12/3/06)

For the efficiency, just get the demo version of promash here, plug in the weights and measures, and change the efficiency button until you get the right OG.


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## Jye (12/3/06)

Ahem.... BeerSmith


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## manaen (12/3/06)

Jye I like the look of beersmith, can you download australian grain profiles?


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## Stuster (12/3/06)

Sorry. Didn't wish to offend the beersmith groupies.  

Both are great. :beer:


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## Jye (12/3/06)

> Jye I like the look of beersmith, can you download australian grain profiles?



Yep... Linky


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## manaen (12/3/06)

Sweet .. thanks champ.

Well according to beersmith my efficiency was 71% .. something to work on but not too shabby for AG #3


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