# Help with bru water setup



## Kingy (15/1/17)

So my goal this year is to tackle the water instead of putting it in the to hard basket. 
Ive set up the water report but the program is telling me it's unbalanced so I must have done something wrong. Can someone Check my inputs?


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## nosco (15/1/17)

Some of your numbers seem very high to me but I have Melbourne water.


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## nosco (15/1/17)

My profile for Werribee water


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## mtb (15/1/17)

How are you calculating Bicarbonates? They seem a bit high


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## nosco (15/1/17)




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## Kingy (15/1/17)

I read that to get the bicarbonate value to multiply carbonate by 1.22


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## mtb (15/1/17)

Nah use the Alkalinity Conversion Calculator on the same worksheet. Enter Total Alkalinity and pH, it'll estimate your bicarbonate for you.

(edit) looking again at your screenshot, I think you might be using an old version of Bru'n Water so you may not have the Calculator. Go get the latest version to be sure.


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## mtb (15/1/17)

You can get Temporary Hardness as CaC03 from here, that sheet lets you figure out where in Newcastle your water is coming from. Then using the table in the bottom right you can find your temporary hardness, which you can input into the Conversion Calculator.


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## rude (15/1/17)

Post you're water report so we can see

I'm no gun & dont use the water report input as I use R/O water but will have a look 

I'm sure there are heaps of crew on here who will help


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## Coalminer (15/1/17)

MHB posted Hunter water report recently in another thread. Can't link to it at the moment on tablet. Will do tomorrow


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## wobbly (15/1/17)

mtb said:


> (edit) looking again at your screenshot, I think you might be using an old version of Bru'n Water so you may not have the Calculator. Go get the latest version to be sure.


Nah That is a screen shot from the latest version 4.2. I got mine emailed to me from Martin last Tuesday 10th Jan

Wobbly


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## SBOB (15/1/17)

I can send you one with a newcastle water profile already setup if you want
I have numbers that MHB posted age ago

But this what I have entered into my spreadsheet


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## huez (15/1/17)

I think you have used the wrong value for your carbonate level, actually i'm certain you have. The value SBOB posted is probably going to get you close enough.


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## nosco (15/1/17)

Thanks Kingy for the reminder. Im just filling out v4.2 now and it says that carbonate does not exist in water with a Ph below 8 and can be assumed to be zero in water Ph below 9. Its obviously rounding there but I think as huez says your carbonate value is way to high. It tells you if you click on each cell how to work out the bicarbonate and carbonate values in ppm for use in the spreadsheet.


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## fungrel (16/1/17)

SBOB said:


> I can send you one with a newcastle water profile already setup if you want
> I have numbers that MHB posted age ago
> 
> But this what I have entered into my spreadsheet


27ppm sodium? Is it always that high?


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## Coalminer (16/1/17)

SBOB
I see you are using the 90th percentile figures for Grahamstown water
I thought from MHB's talk we should be using the median figures, but I may be wrong about this

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/93153-hunter-water/#entry1417961


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## Kingy (16/1/17)

Thanks guys gives me something better to work with. I'll have a play around with that when I get home. Dunno where I got my figures from in original post lol.


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## SBOB (16/1/17)

Coalminer said:


> SBOB
> I see you are using the 90th percentile figures for Grahamstown water
> I thought from MHB's talk we should be using the median figures, but I may be wrong about this
> 
> ...


I could be wrong, as I didnt attend that talk and grabbed info that was posted a year or 2 ago

Might update mine to align with yours then 

How much is the fancier BrunWater version cost? Im still running the freebie one


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## Coalminer (16/1/17)

SBOB said:


> I could be wrong, as I didnt attend that talk and grabbed info that was posted a year or 2 ago
> 
> Might update mine to align with yours then
> 
> How much is the fancier BrunWater version cost? Im still running the freebie one


Cost is want you want to pay. Either once only or regular subscription. The paid version is much more comprehensive AFAIK but I never used the old version. Differences all explained on his site

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/screenshots

e.g. Can save individual grain bills without saving a full copy of the spreadsheet for each recipe
I just paid $15.00 USD to see whats involved. If I can handle the software will probably make regular donations as there appears to have been a lot of work put into it
Still only half way through the instructions page at the moment so lots still to learn. I have only ever used Calcium Lactate as my water treatment but flying blind,
so don't take my word as gospel 
Still need to get a decent PH meter


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## Kingy (16/1/17)

I made a donation of $10 and got the upgrade version emailed to me a few days ago.


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## SBOB (16/1/17)

fungrel said:


> 27ppm sodium? Is it always that high?


seems so, even the average values that Coalminer posted from MHB's data shows 24ppm


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## rude (17/1/17)

32 to 130 at 79 ppm mean of sodium in Melville

55 to 190 at 120 ppm mean chloride

This has steered me to R/O water


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## wobbly (17/1/17)

25 to 140 at 105 ppm mean of sodium in Bibra Lake

43 to 220 at 165 ppm mean of chloride 

This is what made me switch to Rain Water 

Wobbly


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## Kingy (18/1/17)

Thanks for all the input so far I should note that I've had a problem with beers not attenuating enough for me. Always finishing around 1.012-14 for standard strength beers,and higher as the alcohol content goes up. 
Ive just realised my mash temp controller was reading 3° out so that's going to make a big difference but the world of water that I've been studying could also help if I moniter and lower the ph. As it turns out the few beers I've put into the program gave showed high mash ph levels.

Ok go easy on me I've input the water report data that coalminer posted up and I've input my IPA recipe and have come up with that the previous mash ph was 5.7. 

After putting in the pale ale profile and adding a few water additions in to suit the profile my ph has dropped to 5.42.

It's my understanding that this could help with attenuating my IPA more (which is better as the last time it finished with a high fg and was to sweet.) 

So these additions of gypsum, calcium chloride and Epsom salt go into the mash water. 
And the sparge water is left untouched as the sparge water doesn't need to be treated?

I should also note I double batch sparge my beers if that makes any difference. 

Could someone check out my attached photo to check I'm on the right path with this water stuff, cheers. 
Oh I tried to get the ph lower but it affected the target bicarbonate ppm. 
View attachment 94605


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## Kingy (18/1/17)

Thanks for all the input so far I should note that I've had a problem with beers not attenuating enough for me. Always finishing around 1.012-14 for standard strength beers,and higher as the alcohol content goes up. 
Ive just realised my mash temp controller was reading 3° out so that's going to make a big difference but the world of water that I've been studying could also help if I moniter and lower the ph. As it turns out the few beers I've put into the program gave showed high mash ph levels.

Ok go easy on me I've input the water report data that coalminer posted up and I've input my IPA recipe and have come up with that the previous mash ph was 5.7. 

After putting in the pale ale profile and adding a few water additions in to suit the profile my ph has dropped to 5.42.

It's my understanding that this could help with attenuating my IPA more (which is better as the last time it finished with a high fg and was to sweet.) 

So these additions of gypsum, calcium chloride and Epsom salt go into the mash water. 
And the sparge water is left untouched as the sparge water doesn't need to be treated?

I should also note I double batch sparge my beers if that makes any difference. 

Could someone check out my attached photo to check I'm on the right path with this water stuff, cheers. 
Oh I tried to get the ph lower but it affected the target bicarbonate ppm.


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## Kingy (18/1/17)

Does anyone know a program to open this software with other than excel as I don't have the full excel version it limits some things I can do with it. Cheers


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## timmi9191 (18/1/17)

Where did you get your information that sparge water doesnt need to be treated?


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## nosco (18/1/17)

Try open office?


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## wobbly (18/1/17)

You should target your sparge water to be pH 6.0 or a bit lower 

Do you add any Acid Malt to your mash. 1.5 to 2 per cent of your grain bill will assist a lot in getting your mash pH closer to where you want to be depending on your overall grain bill 

If you haven't already have a read of the first couple of pages of the following topic aj delange is one of the more authoritative publishers on forums on the subject of pH control of mash water

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Kingy (18/1/17)

Thanks mate yea I'll definately read that, I'm actually enjoying learning about water this time around all the other times I've gave up. 
I have read that you should get your sparge water at 6 but then also read some people don't bother. 
I think it makes sense to treat sparge water as it makes up 2/3 of my final product. 
I will do a bit more reading on adding acid malt. 
So still add the minerals but use acid malt to get the ph lower?


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## rude (18/1/17)

If PH isnt where you want it after mash mineral addition yes add acid to lower more

300ppm sulfate first up going hard for hop pop


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## Kingy (22/1/17)

I'm brewing a galaxy pacific ale beer and after a bit of reading the only water adjustment I think I need for a beer like this is to add a bit of gypsum to the mash along with 2% acid malt to get the ph down a bit 
and 1.1mls lactic acid to the sparge water to get the ph of 6. How does that sound (looking for reassurance)


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## timmi9191 (22/1/17)

You have selected that you want your water to be the pale ale profile but you have not treated the water enough to create that profile. Its more than just mash ph.

you are not hitting the target levels for calcium, magnesium, sulphate and chlorides. If you want that profile you need more treatment.

Having said that, the profile you have created will still make beer, its just whether you want to hit those numbers exactly.

You also appear to have ignored treating the sparge water, except for an acid addition. Why?

I would be treating the sparge water as recommended by Bru'n. I, however leave the acid addition to just before the sparge commences to avoid excessive calcium being precipitated out of solution.


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## Kingy (22/1/17)

Like this


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## timmi9191 (22/1/17)

Yes.

Just be careful of using too much acid malt along with lactic acid as excessive amounts of lactic acid can effect flavour. For this reason I use acid malt in the mash and phosphoric acid in the sparge water


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## Kingy (22/1/17)

Thanks Timmi in that updated picture of the profile the acid malt was omitted. But that's something I will look into. Thanks for ya help mate.


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## wobbly (22/1/17)

If you are concerned about lactic acid impacting on flavor you could always use phosphoric acid instead. YTou can get it from Grain and Grape and they will post it as well

Wobbly


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## SBOB (22/1/17)

wobbly said:


> If you are concerned about lactic acid impacting on flavor you could always use phosphoric acid instead. YTou can get it from Grain and Grape and they will post it as well
> 
> Wobbly


I doubt his acid additions would be enough to impart a detectable flavour using lactic.. 
Newcastle area water is a pretty decent starting point so should only be a few ml in a 20l batch (based on my last few pale coloured brews)


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## Kingy (5/2/17)

Just playing around with my water additions on a previous brewed esb. That I'm going to brew again but this time using salts. After I've input the data it says the mash ph is 5.15
This seems rather low but I could be wrong. If all my inputs are good. What is the best way to add alkalinity to the mash? Pretty sure I'm on the right track . 


Cheers.


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## wobbly (5/2/17)

Try removing your crystal and roast malts from the mash and either steep them separately or add them to the main mash at mash out 

Being Crystal malts they don't need to be mashed anyway

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Kingy (5/2/17)

Thanks wobbly, I tried that. But it only raises it to 5.2 up from 5.15. I can add a small amount of bicarbonate to get it to 5.25. From my reading it seems that the ph rises anyway during the mash and while 5.15-5.20 isn't ideal for the style and is on the limits of the recommended area it's still better than where it would've been without any additions at all. And in a real world situation it's probably going to be different and I'm only guessing until I get a ph meter. 
Another tool to play with while I brew beer and do some calculations. 
That's what I like to do but and I don't like doonas.


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## manticle (5/2/17)

I wouldn't add any alkalizing agent for esb to get above 5.2.


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## SBOB (5/2/17)

i think adding something like baking soda to offset that dark malt is an option


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## wobbly (6/2/17)

Have you considered using some Calcium Lactate to increase the buffering capacity of your mash water

You can purchase it from Brewman and seeing you are located in Newcastle it may be worth your while having a chat to him about using some

Check out this topic where it is discussed by MHB, and others http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/90157-calcium-lactate/

Cheers

Wobbly


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## mabrungard (8/2/17)

Kingy said:


> Does anyone know a program to open this software with other than excel as I don't have the full excel version it limits some things I can do with it. Cheers


OpenOffice is no longer supported by its developer and it doesn't seem to operate Bru'n Water very well. LibreOffice does operate the program pretty well.


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## nosco (15/2/17)

mabrungard said:


> OpenOffice is no longer supported by its developer and it doesn't seem to operate Bru'n Water very well. LibreOffice does operate the program pretty well.


Another reason why I love Brunwater.


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## Coalminer (8/3/17)

wobbly said:


> Have you considered using some Calcium Lactate to increase the buffering capacity of your mash water
> 
> You can purchase it from Brewman and seeing you are located in Newcastle it may be worth your while having a chat to him about using some
> 
> ...


Wobbly, have you worked out how to enter Calcium Lactate parameters into Bru'n Water?

all I have is - Calcium 13% Lactate 31% Water 29% ?? 27%

cheers


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## peteru (9/3/17)

I had a look at the free version of Bru'n Water. I use Libre Office on Linux. It seems to work reasonably well, except that parts of the spreadsheet seem to be locked out using a password. That means that you can not change the formatting of the cells. There are a number of places where the results are shown using too few decimal places. I'd like to change the format, but the password protection won't let me. Does anyone know the password or know how to change the cell formatting without the password?


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## Coalminer (9/3/17)

The latest paid version released this week allows for decimal points instead of rounding up


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## wobbly (9/3/17)

Coalminer said:


> Wobbly, have you worked out how to enter Calcium Lactate parameters into Bru'n Water?
> 
> all I have is - Calcium 13% Lactate 31% Water 29% ?? 27%
> 
> cheers


Coalminer

No I haven't done any more with this subject but if/when you find out any further information please let me know

Cheers

Wobbly


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## nosco (9/3/17)

wobbly said:


> Coalminer
> 
> No I haven't done any more with this subject but if/when you find out any further information please let me know
> 
> ...



Pm mabrungard. From what I have seen here and on HBT he is happy to give advise and support for the spread sheet. Hence my comment above.


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## nosco (28/4/17)

Does any one know how to save recipe data in the full version of Brun Water? Im not sure of the correct name for it but you can save each recipe in the one spread sheet somehow.


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## Coalminer (29/4/17)

nosco said:


> Does any one know how to save recipe data in the full version of Brun Water? Im not sure of the correct name for it but you can save each recipe in the one spread sheet somehow.


The instruction page may be extensive but is well worth reading
Data management in on line 170 of the instruction page near the bottom


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## nosco (29/4/17)

Would help if I used the right version :lol:


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## nosco (7/7/17)

Ok so I found out that the reason why I cant save recipe's in the Data Management tab is because the Batch Name cell the Grain Bill tab is corrupted. I can enter a Batch Name in the Grain Bill section but nothing shows up in the Name drop down menu in Data Management. Im not sure how I did it or why I cant get it to happen now but at one point the Batch Name cell in Grain Bill had a drop dwon menu that said "Base Malt,Crystal Malt" etc as well "Water Profile.." and a few other.

Can any one good with a spread sheet tell what the code for this cell is supposed to be and how I can edit it?


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## Coalminer (8/7/17)

Don't know about the code but;
1. Have you enabled Macro's in the spreadsheet?
2. Are you saving the the spreadsheet as a Macro enabled file? ie *.xlsm


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## nosco (8/7/17)

Yeah I enable the macro at the start when I open a file. There should be an option to use them permanently I guess. Its saved as a .xlsm. I emailed Martin early this morning and he had replied by the time I woke up. It may take a while to nut it out though.


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## mabrungard (13/7/17)

nosco said:


> Ok so I found out that the reason why I cant save recipe's in the Data Management tab is because the Batch Name cell the Grain Bill tab is corrupted. I can enter a Batch Name in the Grain Bill section but nothing shows up in the Name drop down menu in Data Management. Im not sure how I did it or why I cant get it to happen now but at one point the Batch Name cell in Grain Bill had a drop dwon menu that said "Base Malt,Crystal Malt" etc as well "Water Profile.." and a few other.
> 
> Can any one good with a spread sheet tell what the code for this cell is supposed to be and how I can edit it?



There isn't any code in that cell. It's a blank cell that you can edit and enter a name. The only thing I can guess is that you are naming the batch with a purely numeric name. The Data Manager is expecting an alpha name in that Name cell.


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## nosco (13/7/17)

Yeah its something with my pc i think. The new file you gave me had the same error. Other weird things happened as well. The pH cell would "disappear" sometimes when I entered some water additions. Im runninf windows 10 but its a pretty old pc. I checked for updated but there wasnt any. I downloaded open office to try it but i havnt had a chance yet. Thanks again for your help.


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