# All Grain Or Extract



## devo (20/6/06)

I have been getting the vibe lately that some extract brewers seem to feel a little confused/intimidated by the AG brewers on this site. Hell I remember the days when I was a kit brewer and the murky lead up to my eventual conversion over to the dark side of AG. 

I'd admit that some AG folk on this forum tend to rabbit on a bit about this or that hop, temp and yeast strain or whatever...and end up confusing the crap out of the kit brewers. Personally I think we can tend to get a little caught up in details (which I can be guilty of) and stray away from some of the basics of AG when followed to the letter will consistently produce exceptionally superior beer to the kit variety. But then again extract brewers have to understand that it's sometimes necessary so that we can feed our thirst for knowledge for making a better beer.

I went AG because I was tired of spending so much time and effort attempting to get a kit beer to taste like commercial beer only to find that in the end I was only kidding myself. I then did plenty of research and reading and found that all this reading would only take me so far. It all eventually fell into place once I went to a couple of AG demos.

The point I'm trying to make is that extract brewers shouldn't be put off AG because they see it as difficult or daunting, it's only as hard as you choose to make it. And you don't need to weld up a brew stand and get big shiny SS pots. I've seen simple and effective set ups with 2 plastic buckets, some hosing and a big aluminium stock pot. 

Final note, for the results you get with AG it's well worth it looking into making the step. B)


----------



## tangent (20/6/06)

hear hear!
agree totally

(i think the AGers should be in a seperate sealed section for HardCore brewers )



> in the end I was only kidding myself


What really confuses me is why you would want to get a perfectly good beer and put extract in it at all. Why do a quick partial when you can do a real beer with not much more hassle? Tins are a great way to start but why keep them in your recipes when you've tasted what an AG brew is really like?
Sorry guys, hope this doesn't offend the K&Kers.


----------



## colinw (20/6/06)

I must say that once I got over the initial intimidation of AG, I have found it easier to consistently brew good beer than I could with kits or extracts.

Some of my kit and extract beers were fantastic, but repeatability seemed to elude me.

With all-grain, after an initial rocky start I have found that when I set out to brew a beer I am confident it will be at least decent.

I am, however, contemplating returning at least partly to extract or kits due to the drought and water restrictions, the time all-grain takes, the time demands of family life and also wanting to devote considerable time returning to my old hobby of control line aeromodelling.


----------



## Airgead (20/6/06)

Methinks its just us AG'r here at the moment...

I went AG a year ago and have never looked back. Much easier than I though it would be (mostly due to excellent advice from here).

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Batz (20/6/06)

tangent said:


> (i think the AGers should be in a seperate sealed section for HardCore brewers )




It was like that here once

Batz


----------



## barls (20/6/06)

extract all the way for me i dont have the time and the money to set it up as my other hobby takes too much time


----------



## Samwise Gamgee (20/6/06)

My first 2 brews were K&K, then 1 extract brew, then 1 partial, then AG.

I found AG a lot easier to fathom after watching a couple of demo's and have never looked back.

I think the main reason I moved onto AG so quick was that I wanted to have a lot of creative control over my brews, and after the 2nd K&K I was bored. As I was never really brewing to make cheap piss, I wanted something a bit more stimulating hence to move to partials then AG.


----------



## Bobby (20/6/06)

Ag seemed so daunting to me at first. But really it is dead easy and bloody fun. I would recommend it to anyone who enjoys there beer. its well worth the effort.


----------



## normell (20/6/06)

I voted AG, but I lie  
all my brews now are fresh wort packs, since finding out that they are as close as AGing, without the effort, I could not be happier with them  
Used to K&K for years, kept computer records of each brew, but could never get 2 brews the same.
Now I know that if I find a fresh pack that I really like, I can replicate it with no problems at all


Normell


----------



## timmy (20/6/06)

K+K for about 2 years, then 1 partial and AG ever since. A quick demo from Doc got me going. Was much easier than i thought.

Never looked back.

Barls, noone has the time or the money, we just make time...............

BTW, in case anyone is tempted, don't mention AG brewing on another forum with a green background.


----------



## bindi (20/6/06)

BTW, in case anyone is tempted, don't mention AG brewing on another forum with a green background.
[/quote]

  I can't stop laughing


----------



## berazafi (20/6/06)

I came to this site as a kit brewer, probably done around 6 kits, came to learn about kegging.

My experience of the site is that there wasnt alot of info for improving kits, then as soon as i found out that the kit is just a boiled down version of the final all grain wort, nothing more nothing less i decided i had to give it ag a go

My thoughts were that i dont mind canned soup but condensed soup is not very good, and sort of thought that maybe beer is similar 

Anyway i gave it a bash i bought a kettle (50l) and a esky and a bit of stainless braid and a burner total cost was under $130

A brew day takes under 4 hours ussually, and i can do other things in between (you do not have to stand there for 4 hours once you know whats going on and how long things take.

I dont think i would ever do an extract, just because if im going to setup and clean up all the stuff, you may as well just do a mash and be done with it

You see some nice bits of equipment on here and recipes that seem so complicated, however you can make very good beers from very simple things

Dave


----------



## barls (20/6/06)

timmy said:


> Barls, noone has the time or the money, we just make time...............


you were in the navy so you know where im coming from with not having the time.
plus when you spend 2 1/2 years, so far and still going, rebuilding a car this time around, it was 5 years last time. cars they are the whole in the road that you pour money in to but at least ive got it the way i want it this time around


----------



## Jazman (20/6/06)

As an ag brewer i still thry make my recipes simple as i find they suit my needs and still make good beer ag brewing doenst have to be complicated it is easy and better if u get to a brew day


----------



## bindi (20/6/06)

barls said:


> timmy said:
> 
> 
> > Barls, noone has the time or the money, we just make time...............
> ...


You know I am ex pussers.. Still laughing  . Sorry [Off topic]  Excuse me.


----------



## hughman666 (20/6/06)

i'll probably get around to ag one day but to tell you the truth, i dont know if i want to spend 4 hours of my weekend housebound.

at least with kits & a few additions in the keg, i get beer that still tastes better than the megaswill from liquorland and it only takes 15-30 minutes which means i can do it at any time of the week.

sure, i dont deny that AG would probably yield a better beer, but i can't be bothered at the moment B)


----------



## DJR (20/6/06)

I think the poll here somewhat reflects really what people do on the site. But really, only the AGers are crazy enough to keep visiting the site again and again 

I've done about 20 kits so far, last 4 of them as partial mashes. Did some really bad brews for a year or two (kit yeast, no temp control, lots of sugar, lager yeast at 16C) then i've done about 10 kits in the last 6 months and started seeing good results. The best results were when i really started doing my research into what makes a good beer, and this site was one of the best resources i found with good advice. Since coming i've realised what a difference temp control, good yeast, fresh ingredients can make. Recently taken the step of doing AG with some advice from here, so far so good, it's bubbling away and the taste from the fermenter is awesome, much fresher and authentic than any kit brew i've done.

I think there is a time and a place for kit brewing, and i might still do a couple more, but really AG is cheaper once you discount the equipment purchasing, and the equipment costs works out to be only a few commercial cases anyway, or 2 cases of Belgians :chug:


----------



## dicko (20/6/06)

Jazman said:


> As an ag brewer i still thry make my recipes simple as i find they suit my needs and still make good beer ag brewing doenst have to be complicated it is easy and better if u get to a brew day



Yes, I agree with Jazman.
I have been AG brewing for a while now and I found I was trying (without trying) to make more and more complicated recipes with a variety of grains and varying hop additions.
I have just gone back to basic recipes (to relive the past) and I am finding that simple basic recipes are just as good, if not sometimes better than all the super additions and mutiple malt selections that we are all bombarded with from time to time.
Most of us came to this site as kit brewers, some are happy with kits others move on to extract, AG etc.
I always say just find your own level and "do what you do do, well!"  
Cheers


----------



## wee stu (20/6/06)

Believe me, all graining is not hard, and it certainly ain't rocket science. And, ghetto breweries can be remarkably cheap.

It is time consuming (relatively), but coming up with a recipe and producing the beer that *you * envisaged, not some dude in a gloop factory, is very, very rewarding. (he says, supping on his Amarillo wheat with a grin factor of 9.9  )

Mind you, if I ever do find that misplaced tin opener, my mind might change  

awrabest, stu


----------



## dicko (20/6/06)

wee stu said:


> Believe me, all graining is not hard, and it certainly ain't rocket science. And, ghetto breweries can be remarkably cheap.
> 
> Mind you, if I ever do find that misplaced tin opener, my mind might change
> 
> awrabest, stu



Hi Stu,
Have a look on that hook on the wall in the brewery, that where mine is, - slowly rusting away!!  
Cheers


----------



## stephen (20/6/06)

hughman666 said:


> i'll probably get around to ag one day but to tell you the truth, i dont know if i want to spend 4 hours of my weekend housebound.
> 
> at least with kits & a few additions in the keg, i get beer that still tastes better than the megaswill from liquorland and it only takes 15-30 minutes which means i can do it at any time of the week.
> 
> sure, i dont deny that AG would probably yield a better beer, but i can't be bothered at the moment B)


Hugh

In reality it is usually closer to 6-7 hours. However, I digress. If kits work for you, then fantastic!! And to all of you who enjoy kits - a well done to you. I started out 20 years ago (almost to the day) with home brewing and have seen a galactic advance in the quality of kits available: My early days were limited to Brigalow, Olinda and soon after I started, Coopers. (I later found out that they had been around a bit longer.) 

I only started doing AG in Jan this year. My reason was not to improve my beer, but to evolve my brewing experience: I was still very happy with my kits - and still alternated kit and AG for some time. Now I only AG brew but do not look down my nose at the kit brewer. I find a kind of solace or peace when I do an AG brew - all the people in my house vacate it as they don't like the smell!! Peace!!

For those people who enjoy the satisfaction of creating their own beer from kits, congratulations!! You are making better beer than is available commercially. For those who who are taking further steps in the evolution of beer making, enjoy! For you are on the road to better beer and a beer that you can create and enjoy.

Steve


----------



## hughman666 (20/6/06)

like i said, maybe one day i'll get around to AG but not right now. having said that, once my work settles down later in the year and i take some time off i might give it a bash. i've heard that roy from TWOC in bibra lake does a demo once a month, might check it out


----------



## wee stu (20/6/06)

stephen said:


> If kits work for you, then fantastic!! And to all of you who enjoy kits - a well done to you.
> 
> Now I only AG brew but do not look down my nose at the kit brewer. I find a kind of solace or peace when I do an AG brew
> 
> For those people who enjoy the satisfaction of creating their own beer from kits, congratulations!! Steve



I hope Steve doesn't mind the selective editing, but I do share his sentiments.

If anyone cared to do so, they would find a fairly passionate "I'm a kits and bits brewer" post lurking in the way back yonder days from yours truly. 

Sad thing is, along with the tin opener, I appear to have lost the art of kit brewing. 

I've actually assisted 4 kits and bits brews in the last 15 months (the next door neighbour has a tin opener  ). Three of those I have ended up ditching, the 4th (a stout) I am still hovering over (it is in 600ml Coke buddy bottles for the beer challenged AAMI Stadium/Footy Park and Crows matches  ). 

In that time I have also ditched 2 all grains, one due to an infection, one due to manifest incompetencies as a brewer h34r: (the list of errors made would exhaust posting limits, and I was sober at the time - just a very bad brew day).

I truly admire the extract brewer who brews a top notch beer. 
And, there are a lot of them out there - just look at the competition results. 
Sadly it is a skill I now seem to be lacking. 

This little tin opener challenged brewer simply finds all grain much more forgiving.


----------



## Doogiechap (21/6/06)

hughman666 said:


> like i said, maybe one day i'll get around to AG but not right now. having said that, once my work settles down later in the year and i take some time off i might give it a bash. i've heard that roy from TWOC in bibra lake does a demo once a month, might check it out


Roy's next demo is the 9th July. He's mainly the one responsible for my slide down the slippery slope  
Actually seeing the process takes away a lot of the mystique.The rest of you have contributed significantly too. Thanks :excl: 
:super: 
Doug


----------



## Finite (21/6/06)

ive made about 6 kits since coming to the site and am bored to hell with them. Its just too basic and the beer relects the process imo.

Im currently planing to make my first AG in 2weeks


----------



## peas_and_corn (21/6/06)

When I started going into brewing last year, I knew that I would eventually go AG; it was a matter of time. Jake has picked up on the fact that I tend to go hardcore into whatever I do; and when at the beginning of this year (I was doing some pretty big partials by then) that I will 'eventually go AG' he said 'no you won't! you'll be doing all grain in the next three months!' He was right.

I haven't tried one of my AG brews yet (my first AG, my honey beer, will be the next cab off the rank), however I have found that though it is time consuming, it feels like I am truly brewing!

Today I did a kits and bits brew, and I was done so quick that when I was tidying up I felt like I hadn't brewed at all!

Also, when I was watching the video that came with my Coopers kit and they said 'pour this in, add water' etc etc (I watch is now and laugh), I thought 'is this it?? I thought that brewing was a little more involved than that!' I made a crap beer, got discouraged for years, then I made a good one and found this forum. The rest is history.

I mean... I voted a bit of both.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

I am a kit and bits guy as most of you know.

I've done about 40 brews by now and only ever had to throw out 3 batch's due to using bottles that I hadnt cleaned properly.

And all of my beers come out fantastic, from supermarket brands to homebrew shop upmarket brands.

All I use is the kit yeast and a simple body back, good technique, obsessive temperature control, and spotless cleaning and to date I've never had a infection.

I'll add extra hops, or even a bit of fruit depending on the brew.

Everyone says that they'd rather drink my stuff then tooheys or carlton cold or any of that stuff, and I think its great so.....

I doubt that I'll ever go AG, this weekend I am going to have a crack at steeping some grains but other then that, I'll stick to my kits.

For the record what I do, I do consider it to be brewing.


----------



## vlbaby (21/6/06)

Everyone has to start somewhere and probably 99% of brewers make their first beers from a tin. I was no different. I probably made around 20 or so kit beers over 3-4 years, and to honest i never found one that i could truely say tasted as good as a commercial beer. 
I must admit, i never experimented with liquid yeast, aroma hops or steeping grains etc, just pour in the tin and add the sugar or sometimes dme or lme.
I sometimes used to ask the guy at the homebrew shop why my beers just taste that little bit different to a commercial beer, and he told me "Home brew doesnt contain any preservatives so it produces a far superior beer".

It wasnt until i tasted some AG produce beer at a brew day at g&g one day i realised i had been duped! My first taste of AG beer, and i knew that this was real beer!
I've brewed about 16 AG beers now, and i'll never go back to k&k. IMO its the difference between instant coffee and espresso, there just no comparision.


vl.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

How long ago was this?


----------



## vlbaby (21/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> How long ago was this?


 do you mean when i converted to AG? about 18 months ago.


----------



## T.D. (21/6/06)

I have done it all - Kits, extract, partials and AG. I can safely say I will never brew anything but AG again. I have nothing against kit brews or brewers, let me be very clear on that, but there is a reason I spend 6 hours to brew 25L of beer, and that's because the results (on average) are better. Plain and simple. I'm not saying that you can't brew a good extract brew, but I'll put good money on the table that any extract brew anybody makes, the AG equivalent will be better (holding all other factors constant). I don't mean that in a pretentious way, its just a fact. Why would people spend hundreds of dollars buying AG equipment and then 6 hours brewing the beer if kits beers were better?

Flame suit is on, and I'm ready!  :lol:


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

Why would anyone go you?

You'd have to be pretty foolish to spend all that dosh, and time if it was making the same beer.

About my only comment is "talk about stating the obvious"


----------



## vlbaby (21/6/06)

TD is right to be cautious drew. The subject of AG vs k&k can be touchy subject as i've seen in the past on this forum. 
I was thinking about the pullin the flame suit on also. 



vl.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

Its common sense that AG will as a rule yield a better result, I as many Kit and Bit brewers merely get the shits when we are told what brew is....

"50c bottles"
"Pig swill"
"crap beer ect"

Its pretty offensive, however why would I begrudge someone discussing all grain or talking about how great it is, full credit if your willing to go the whole hog, just be courteous to others dont and realise that they may still be brewing a quality beer.


----------



## Steve (21/6/06)

I'm keen to challenge any canberra AG'er to a taste testing with a suitably qualified judge with your AG beer and my Grumpies extract brews.....say no more!
Cheers
Steve

P.S. no affilitation blah de bloody blah!


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

I'd be interested to see them against a 3kg ESB paint tin as well.


----------



## Steve (21/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> I'd be interested to see them against a 3kg ESB paint tin as well.




I took a few bottles of my 3kg ESB APA to our last club meeting.....put it this way they were blown away! Couldnt believe it was a kit. I could here them all whispering, how did he do that, what did be put in it, what yeast did he use. I even gave one very esteemed member half a glass of the yeasty dregs from the bottom of the bottle. Best smelling APA hes ever smelt and wished he could have had a taste of the upper half of the bottle were his comments - and these people dont lie, they tell you how it is.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## KoNG (21/6/06)

Steve said:


> I'm keen to challenge any canberra AG'er to a taste testing with a suitably qualified judge with your AG beer and my Grumpies extract brews.....say no more!
> Cheers
> Steve
> 
> P.S. no affilitation blah de bloody blah!



Give it a go then..... Easy
Just enter your grumpy's kit into a comp as an AG beer... see how it goes.
I'm actually looking forward (kind of) to Linz's grumpy kit entry for the July xmas case.
i did a couple of grumpy extracts a whiles back... and none of them came close to what i can brew AG.

Brewin
KoNG


----------



## Steve (21/6/06)

....but dont get me wrong...I am not bagging all grain beer either. Wouldnt dream of bagging any type of beer - I love the stuff. Ive tasted some good ones and tasted some crap ones (same as kits). I just dont have the time, space, money, inclination to progress any further at this moment in time. I may in the future but at the moment I am very happy with the kits n bits and grumpys beer that I make.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## Guest Lurker (21/6/06)

Doogiechap said:


> hughman666 said:
> 
> 
> > like i said, maybe one day i'll get around to AG but not right now. having said that, once my work settles down later in the year and i take some time off i might give it a bash. i've heard that roy from TWOC in bibra lake does a demo once a month, might check it out
> ...




There is also a demo in Perth at my place on 22 July, all welcome. Although we will be using hot rocks instead of a burner, the process is the same, and my setup is very basic, no plumbing or pumps in sight.


----------



## T.D. (21/6/06)

I jam-packed my post full of disclaimers as I know this can be a very touchy subject, as vl mentioned. By coming out and saying "AG is always better" and leaving it at that I would have stirred up some brewers who might have interpretted it as bagging out extract. So I just wanted to make it clear that by saying that "AG is better" I didn't necessarily mean that "extract is bad".


----------



## MAH (21/6/06)

On a Saturday morning, me and a couple of other AG mates like to hang out at the local HBS and laugh at the kits and extract brewers. We just point at them and make derogatory remarks about their feeble efforts. The kit brewers come in for particular attention, we like to call them "fermentation assistants". It's a hoot!

Cheers
MAH


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

Thats a lovely bit of fishing, I wonder how many bites you'll get?


----------



## wee stu (21/6/06)

KoNG said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> > I'm keen to challenge any canberra AG'er to a taste testing with a suitably qualified judge with your AG beer and my Grumpies extract brews.....say no more!
> ...



Steve, please do put your beers into competition, but don't put it in as an all grain beer, just put it in. It wouldn't be the first time an enhanced kit brew took out the glory. I've had competitive success with grumpys beers in the past.

I'm involved in one of the national comps ANAWBS, and we actively encourage *open * competition in 15 of our 17 classes. Whilst we will be asking brewers to describe the method used this year, this will be for our own statistical purposes only. The beers will be judged blindly against strict guidelines in a BJCP sanctioned environment, the judges will not know if a beer is extract or kit based. 

The exceptions we have to this are our two restricted classes, one for kit based brews exclusively and one for All Grain beers - The Mash Paddle. We're not being Nazi's here, rather we are responding to requests from the home brewing community to have a couple of classes with specialist bragging rights attached.


----------



## goatherder (21/6/06)

I'd like to throw another angle on the "AG is better" argument.

Brewing good beer is primarily about 2 things - sanitation and yeast/fermentation management. These are skills which apply across all brewing types. Brewers will tend to get better at these over time.

Brewers tend to go into kits and extract brewing before they attempt AG. By the time they move to AG, they are getting pretty good at sanitation and fermentation. Could this be part of the reason why some AG brewers seem convinced that AG is better? I think yes, and perhaps the contribution of the AG process to the final product is being overstated.

Ray Daniels tells us that a big proportion (4/7 IIRC) of 2nd round brews in the NHC were extract only. It will be really interesting to see the stats that wee stu mentioned after the results of ANAWBS are out.


----------



## Jim_Levet (21/6/06)

Like pretty much everybody else I started at Woolies with the K&K brigade. After venturing into a HBS for a mash demo & sausage sizzle, I was hooked on All Grain.
"K&K is like trying to turn Beef Jerky back into steak" I was told.
Can't wait for the weekend to do it all again.
James


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

Cant wait to get this XMAS case..... Will be bloody interesting to try these divine like AG brews and see if they live up to the wrap.


----------



## hughman666 (21/6/06)

yeah from the replies here, i'm seeing a trend that AG is always better than a kit or extract. i can see why there is this perception, i mean who would want spend all that time & money to find out that an extract can taste better?

what goatherder is saying is quite true though. once the basics are mastered and can be applied to any form of brewing, it would be interesting to see how the gap between ag & kits/extracts looks.

the trend that AG is always better only holds true to a point. i have tasted very ordinary beers using both types of brewing - yes you can make a crap AG beer. h34r:


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

Jim_Levet said:


> Like pretty much everybody else I started at Woolies with the K&K brigade. After venturing into a HBS for a mash demo & sausage sizzle, I was hooked on All Grain.
> "K&K is like trying to turn Beef Jerky back into steak" I was told.
> Can't wait for the weekend to do it all again.
> James



Pure Arrogance.....

I guarantee that my belgium ale would be the equal of any AG. And its a mere kit and bits brew.


----------



## MAH (21/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Thats a lovely bit of fishing, I wonder how many bites you'll get?



Just pointing out that the AG vs everyone else thread has been done to death and usualy ends ugly. The AG brewers come off either as condescending prats or arrogant bastards and "everyone" else get deffensive. The more reassuring the AG's are that they are not being denegrating, the more denegrated everyone else feels and the more defensive they get. It's just a downward spiral from there. It's certainly not helped by innocent remarks by AG converts.

I say kill the thread, it's not needed.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## colinw (21/6/06)

Steve said:


> DrewCarey82 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be interested to see them against a 3kg ESB paint tin as well.
> ...


So you would recommend the ESB 3kg kits?

Given our dire water situation & restrictions in Brisbane, plus time pressure, I am considering doing a few kits and would like some advice about what will give a good result to my AG trained palate.


----------



## colinw (21/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Jim_Levet said:
> 
> 
> > Like pretty much everybody else I started at Woolies with the K&K brigade. After venturing into a HBS for a mash demo & sausage sizzle, I was hooked on All Grain.
> ...


My best ever strong Belgian was based on a can of unhopped Coopers extra pale extract, with stuffing around and a re-used T-58 yeast cake.


----------



## devo (21/6/06)

MAH said:


> DrewCarey82 said:
> 
> 
> > Thats a lovely bit of fishing, I wonder how many bites you'll get?
> ...





ummm the subject of the thread is AG or Extract not AG vs Extract?


----------



## colinw (21/6/06)

We're adult enough to handle a bit of lively discussion here.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

MAH said:


> DrewCarey82 said:
> 
> 
> > Thats a lovely bit of fishing, I wonder how many bites you'll get?
> ...



Agreed though being on the otherside I believe its justified on occassion.

But we should make it policy to do it via PM rather then a general bitchfest.


----------



## T.D. (21/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Pure Arrogance.....
> 
> I guarantee that my belgium ale would be the equal of any AG. And its a mere kit and bits brew.



Belgians are potentially the worst beers to use as a yardstick on this issue. They are made with a high proportion of sugar afterall, so the extract vs AG bit is masked by that. A friend of mine once told me that if you infect a strong ale, just call it a belgian!  

If you can brew an extract Bohemian Pilsner that is better than the AG equivalent, I'll eat my hat.

The most important thing to remember in this whole discussion is that to make some sort of objective comparison between AG and extract you have to rule out all other factors. So that's fermentation temp, sanitation, yeast type, and just the idiosyncrasies of different brewers and their methods. So its not really possible to say "I tasted an AG beer that was much worse than my kit beers - therefore I conclude that AG is not better" as the AG beer may have been brewed badly or infected or whatever. That is not an objective comparison.

I am also looking forward to the Xmas in July case swap - its been years since I tried a kit beer so it will be interesting to get a refresher on what they are like in a comparative sense.

btw, MAH made an excellent point. These arguments always end badly (hence my tentative initial post) and really solve nothing so I might just pull myself out of this one now...


----------



## Steve (21/6/06)

T.D. said:


> DrewCarey82 said:
> 
> 
> > Pure Arrogance.....
> ...



Agree TD - its all about how you brew it - theres so many different factors to take into consideration wether it be kit n bits or AG. I like to perfect what I am currently working on, in this case kits n grumpys kits. I am still perfecting my fermentation assistant technique but have to say its very enjoyable doing this process. And it has been with all the help from this web site (and others), kit brewers and seasoned AG brewers. Like I said earlier - no doubt down the track when I have more time, space, money and inclination I may venture into trying to perfect the perfect AG. Its all good fun and I love it.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## Samwise Gamgee (21/6/06)

The Hills Brewers Guild are doing a brew where we are split into three groups (AG, Extract & K&K) and will all be brewing the same brew.

I think the AG recipe was the original then the extract and K&K recipes were based off that to make them all as close as possible for the style. I think the same yeast is being used across all brews?

Then once its all brewed we'll be tasting and discussing the differences between each brew.

By no means is this a perfect experiment to battle out the AG vs Extract argument (due to different groups of people brewing and possible slight differences in temp control etc) but it will be a good chance the discuss the differences in taste/aroma/appearance and so on.

In my personal experiences I've tasted great HB made through Kits/Partials and AG. And i've tasted not so good HB made through Kits/Partials and AG.

With *MY* brewing, I believe that my AG brews taste substantially better than my kits that I did, but in saying that I only ever did 2 kits and was still learning about temp control, sanitisation blah blah blah. The partial I did though has turned out great! (Now been in a bottle for 12 months - A barley wine)


----------



## Steve (21/6/06)

p.s.... and the debate is always good fun!  
people do get fired up eh?
Cheers
Steve


----------



## Jim_Levet (21/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Jim_Levet said:
> 
> 
> > Like pretty much everybody else I started at Woolies with the K&K brigade. After venturing into a HBS for a mash demo & sausage sizzle, I was hooked on All Grain.
> ...



Drew, Not arrogant, but very confident.

don't knock it until you have tried it!

James


----------



## Murray (21/6/06)

Its all about the journey. I enjoy the brewing process as much as the finished product. I view 6 or so hours as a positive rather than a negative, I'm quite happy to spend all day doing something I enjoy. There is also the satisfaction of creating something from raw components, something unique. Couldn't care less if an oversensitive kit brewer finds a statement of my personal enjoyment offensive.


----------



## Lukes (21/6/06)

I have and still do a mix of both (time is the factor for me) so I am going to start a fight with myself.... :blink: 

Luke


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

Is that Montrose Tasmania Lukes?


----------



## wee stu (21/6/06)

Murray said:


> Its all about the journey. I enjoy the brewing process as much as the finished product. I view 6 or so hours as a positive rather than a negative, I'm quite happy to spend all day doing something I enjoy. There is also the satisfaction of creating something from raw components, something unique.



Ditto. 

As I type this I am some 5 hours into a very leisurely and relaxed brewday. The only negative is that the time came up unexpectedly and I didn't manage to organise any other brewer(s) to share in the fun  .

When I tell people about my hobby, I acknowledge I am out there on the lunatic fringe of home brewing. 

Not for everybody. Doesn't have to be. No need to proselytise. No need to intentionally offend anyone either.

Now, I think I should listen to my wise old Uncle MAH, and maybe just get back to the beer making  

awrabest, stu


----------



## berazafi (21/6/06)

Ok im not going to say which brewers method works better for them

But isnt extract just a boiled down Wort that is made from all-grain and possibly hops

So that being said, im sure we could conclude that the fresh wort, before its thickened by reduction surly would be better to use and more fresh tasting than the final concentrated version

Dave


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

One pleasing thing on here is unlike in mainstream life when you mention home brew you inevitably get 20 nobs, who blurt out, "I tried homebrew once and it was disgusting murky cloudy stuff"

Some hacks have a lot to answer for!

To a lot of mainstream society it seems we are still deemed cheapskate alcoholics!


----------



## warrenlw63 (21/6/06)

As said by a few already. This thread smacks of eliteism.

I've tasted extract brews that have been fantastic and some AG brews that taste like dog's vomit.

Both methods create great beer. All depends on how badly you want your beer to taste good and how committed you are to *not* cutting corners.  

Don't let anybody tell you that AG brewing is hard. A trained chimp could do it. (Actually I think they may already). :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## KoNG (21/6/06)

:lol: :lol: i think i will call him (Warren)......."Monkey Boy"


----------



## warrenlw63 (21/6/06)

You forgot to add... Great Sage, Equal of Heaven. :beerbang: 

Warren -


----------



## T.D. (21/6/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> As said by a few already. This thread smacks of eliteism.
> 
> I've tasted extract brews that have been fantastic and some AG brews that taste like dog's vomit.
> 
> ...



I don't know if any of the AGers here are elitist, I think that's the problem - its impossible to say you think AG is better without sounding like a snob, but again, why would the AG brewers spend all the extra time and money if it was possible to produce something that was just as good out of extract? It just doesn't make sense. I don't think anybody here is saying all extract beers are bad (in fact the point of all of my comments was kind of to NOT say that), but all things held constant, I think you would struggle to produce a better beer out of extract than grain. I am just trying to be objective here - I have brewed kits, extract, partials and AG and I can safely say that the AG beers are far better than comparable extract beers I used to make. That's not to say the extract beers were bad (I brewed them for 5 years so they can't have been that bad!) but the AG ones are better. I don't consider that an elitist comment, and I certainly hope it didn't come across that way!

Damn, I wan't going to post any more on this! :lol:


----------



## warrenlw63 (21/6/06)

TD.

Don't get me wrong. Was more a reassurance for the many extract, kit brewers out there that they shouldn't be ignored or made to feel inferior because they aren't.  

I've been AG brewing for around 8 years and wouldn't do it any other way.  Main reason being I get total control over the whole process and was anxious to explore the process further. That being said the extract and kit brewer can make good (even great) beer but must be aware that it will sit within certain parameters and limitations.

On a bad note I used to go to brew club meetings though and watch blokes do their first, second or even third all-grain and suddenly think they are the king of all they survey, quickly forgetting what they were doing only months previously. Suddenly they have nothing better to do than to scorn the kit and extract brewers.  

Would even sit with guys judging extract/kit beers only to be annoyed that they bag the beer before even tasting it. Basically wearing their A/G blinkers. <_< 

Warren -


----------



## KoNG (21/6/06)

T.D. said:


> Damn, I wan't going to post any more on this! :lol:



proving you are an elitist.... :lol:


----------



## colinw (21/6/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> Don't let anybody tell you that AG brewing is hard. A trained chimp could do it.



Bugger, I've been found out.

Now, where did I leave that banana?


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

*I don't know if any of the AGers here are elitist, I think that's the problem - its impossible to say you think AG is better without sounding like a snob, but again, why would the AG brewers spend all the extra time and money if it was possible to produce something that was just as good out of extract? * 

Quite simply for a hobby and because they enjoy being able to create beer from the base ingredients.

Really if you use malt as your booster for Thomas Cooper Premium, Maltshovel, Brewcraft and Morgans + the necessary hops and grains they'd be as good as most AG's.

Or easier still just go the ESB 3kg range and add some hops.....


----------



## T.D. (21/6/06)

I couldn't agree with you more Warren - I think I may have misinterpreted your post just a tad!  :lol: 

Any form of bias or preconception is bad. As I said I am really looking forward to tasting some of the extract brews that will be in the NSW Xmas in July case - there's nothing better than variety. I certainly wouldn't write any off before trying them. But then its open slather (regardless of the brewing method)! :lol:


----------



## Steve (21/6/06)

At our last meeting we did a little test on our table of about 6 people which consisted of AGers, Partial mashers, extract brewers and kit brewers. Funnily enough each one had brought their own version of a stout. So we poured each into a glass with only one person knew which was which (the most sober of us). We each tasted them in turn. The partial masher won with the AGer second and the kit last. It was his first partial mash too. It was very interesting and fun (hic!)  
Cheers
Steve


----------



## colinw (21/6/06)

Gee, people sure get steamed about this. Plenty of room for everyone, people!

My first ever competition class win in our club comp was with a porter doctored up from a Coopers Real Ale kit. Beat out all-grain brews.

Extracts and kits can and do win classes.

The best tasting kit brews I've tried in our club are made by a guy who is also a master all-grain brewer.

The best thing about all-grain to me is the "navel gazing" factor. That long, relaxed day as the mash rests, or slowly sparges, or as I boil for 90+ minutes.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (21/6/06)

Yeah but certain AG's get so pissed off even at the mention that kits can make better beers then AG's.

Thats what shits me.


----------



## James Squire (21/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Yeah but certain AG's get so pissed off even at the mention that kits can make better beers then AG's.
> 
> Thats what shits me.



Drew, 

I myself mainly brew either modified kit brews or partial brews, (due to time) and I believe I make great beers that I thouroughly enjoy, so don't take me for being an 'elitist' as it's been dubbed.

However, I think this last comment you have made may be worth putting into perspective. You seem to get peeved at the people who claim their AG brews are superior to your kit brews yet you fight back at them claiming that your Kit's make better beers... I think you may be playing a part of your own problem. 

Let it go man! Enjoy your beers and let others enjoy theirs. :beerbang: 

JS


----------



## devo (21/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Yeah but certain AG's get so pissed off even at the mention that kits can make better beers then AG's.
> 
> Thats what shits me.



I remember my first AG was one of the worst beers I ever made.


----------



## Murray (21/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Yeah but certain AG's get so pissed off even at the mention that kits can make better beers then AG's.
> 
> Thats what shits me.



Name names then. No offence intended, but I think you are imagining it tbh.


----------



## T.D. (21/6/06)

Well said JS.

Drew, I agree with your comments. Nobody should conclude that your beers are crap just because they are extract, but equally you shouldn't assume that they are "as good as it gets" when you don't even brew AG yourself. All I would ask is that you not rule out Ag brewing as if it has nothing to offer, because I can tell you that if you did brew AG beers you would not regret it. That is regardless of whether you like or dislike your kits.


----------



## colinw (21/6/06)

devo said:


> DrewCarey82 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah but certain AG's get so pissed off even at the mention that kits can make better beers then AG's.
> ...


My 2nd AG was my worst beer ... ever. I attempted to make a low gravity Mild, oversparged really badly and made the Most Astringent Beer Ever (tm).

Took a good half dozen AG brews before I got back to the standard of my kit/extract beers, but I learned a whole heap about the effect of pH and salts in the process.


----------



## bindi (21/6/06)

colinw said:


> devo said:
> 
> 
> > DrewCarey82 said:
> ...



Some of my first Ags were some of my best [bucket in bucket and a large stock pot] up to 19 ag now and my worst Ags are on par with my best extracts / kits and bits [so far].
The Grumpys kits I did in the past we good and easy.


----------



## colinw (21/6/06)

My first AG was really good, and I got a bit over confident and proceeded to make a series of dumb mistakes before settling down and refining my process with a combination of AG and partial mash brews. I finally stopped doing partial mash because just doing AG was actually simpler than messing with both extract and grains.

Haven't had a dud batch in a long time now - probably overdue for a snafu.


----------



## monkale (21/6/06)

Only done my first AG the other day at Bindis place (champion :beerbang: ) but have drank some nice AGs so I think if the the beer tastes great who cares if its extract or AG as long as its good Beer thats what were here for  


cheers Monkale


----------



## Beerpig (21/6/06)

Enjoying this thread

Kits here with different bits & pieces .................. very happy with the results

Have never tasted an AG beer, but very curious

Bottom line is - if you are happy do it ............................ don't get down on others who may do it differently

Great discussion

Cheers


----------



## n00ch (21/6/06)

> I attempted to make a low gravity Mild, oversparged really badly and made the Most Astringent Beer Ever .



You may just have summed up my Mild i contributed in the NSW Xmas in July case there Colinw!!! :lol: 

Sorry people in that case swap but it may be a real shocker....


----------



## Zwickel (21/6/06)

Hello Brewmates,

there are only a few words for me to say: every mother loves their children, even if they are very ugly, but never tell her


----------



## tangent (21/6/06)

I thought my beers were "better than that commercial crap" when I was doing extract brews. Then I tasted some better commercial beers and some AG beers and realised my taste for beers had changed. Was able to pick a few different things out from beers that I hadn't noticed before. 
To be honest I haven't tasted an extract brew that has made me say "Wow", ever. (plenty of "not bads" and "yeah that's easy drinking")
If you want to post me one and prove me wrong (I'll put it alongside my photo of the ugly member of Bananarama), I'm more than willing to be un-converted.
What we have to admit is it's very easy to make a bad AG beer as well.


----------



## vlbaby (21/6/06)

yer thats a good idea tangent.

Please, all extract and kit brewers pm me and tangent NOW for the details where you can send your beers for a vigorous quality and reassurance assesment.  

give beers a chance.

very thirsty,


vl.


----------



## Darren (21/6/06)

Earlier on this year I judged a country show (50 or so beers). 90% of the beers were at the best average probably because they were JUST kits. Even the best (sanitation, temp control, etc) kit beers all taste the same.

Of all the shows that I have judged in, country and state, the only time a kit beer wins a class is when the entrant has used a kit as a base, then added a liquid yeast, "mini-mash", specialty grains, or hops. Hardly a kit beer!! FWIW, it shits me that these same guys enter their beers into the "kit" classes and knock off the honest brewers!!

Also, as it has been said in earlier threads, I also challenge anyone to make a class winning pilsener or lighter style lager with a kit. If you like darker styles, kits make acceptable beers, the light ones just don't cut it for me.

cheers

Darren


----------



## johnno (21/6/06)

When I used to do partial using dry extract I was getting a residual sweetness.
Seemed to be more with the ales and lagers, porters and stouts were ok.

I dont miss the sweetness at all.

cheers
johnno


----------



## Keith_N (21/6/06)

Gday All
Wow haven't seen one of theses arguements for a while. Only 100 votes, I guess that gives an accurate read of active members.
Stay cool
Keith


----------



## devo (21/6/06)

tangent said:


> I thought my beers were "better than that commercial crap" when I was doing extract brews. Then I tasted some better commercial beers and some AG beers and realised my taste for beers had changed. Was able to pick a few different things out from beers that I hadn't noticed before.
> To be honest I haven't tasted an extract brew that has made me say "Wow", ever. (plenty of "not bads" and "yeah that's easy drinking")
> If you want to post me one and prove me wrong (I'll put it alongside my photo of the ugly member of Bananarama), I'm more than willing to be un-converted.
> What we have to admit is it's very easy to make a bad AG beer as well.




I'd have to agree tangent. I've made both good and bad AG and extract brews. 

When I used to brew extracts even my better one's I kinda got the "yeah not bad, pretty good drop" response from non brewing friends even though I thought they were shit hot personally. But when I started serving up the AG brews the response I got was like "wow".

Time I think is very important. Even though you spend less time making an extract I noticed it takes way longer for it to mature into a really good drop. On the other hand an AG takes longer to initially make but tends to take less time to mature to the same quality or beyond. B)


----------



## devo (21/6/06)

vlbaby said:


> yer thats a good idea tangent.
> 
> Please, all extract and kit brewers pm me and tangent NOW for the details where you can send your beers for a vigorous quality and reassurance assesment.
> 
> ...




hahahahaha brilliant


----------



## Bizarre (21/6/06)

Wow this seems to be turning into a bit of hot topic!
Here's my 2 cents worth (FWIW!!) - I have been collecting equipment to brew AG. The main reason I want to do ag is that I can have complete control (hopefully if all goes well  ) from start to finish - and for (hopefully) a different tasting sort of beer.

I brewed kits for 5 years and gave it away for a couple of years cause it was "too much effort" etc etc. When I started brewing again about 6 months ago I tried a couple of kits, then got adventurous with extract, grains and hops (doing partials) and I liked the different tastes I was able to get. I've done heaps of partials now which I've been fairly happy with - but having tasted a couple of AG beers I do think the potential is there to make some really nice drops (also some flamin revolting one if I screw up!!).

Look, at the end of the day does it really matter if its kit or ag blah blah - we all have a comon interest in a hobby, and different people always do things different ways - if the indivduals are happy with what they brew then surely thats all that matters.

Reading some of the comments it reminded me of the school yard arguments alongthe lines of "my dads bigger than your dad" "yeah, but my uncles bigger and he'd kick your dad's arse" - we all have a comon interest and surely thats all that matters.

*steps off soap box*

Cheers all


----------



## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (22/6/06)

Zwickel said:


> every mother loves their children, even if they are very ugly, but never tell her




Thats a cracker Zwickel. Very funny and very relevant.

Me? I brew kits and bits and extracts. I love em and so do my mates and family but I have always known it will only be a matter of time before I do an AG.

Unfortunately I dont have the time and "making the time" is just BS as far as I am concerned. I do my brews and bottling at about 11PM to 2 or 3 AM because I dont own my days. My wife and kids own what time I spend at home when they are awake. If I started spending my weekends brewing, I would probably find I suddenly had a lot of weekends to spend brewing.

However, please allow me to supply another analogy.

I love cooking and particularly love curries. I use to do all my curries from jars and loved them. Then I started adding bits and pieces to them and they were even better.

Eventually I graduated to grinding and cooking my own fresh spices and herbs.

Now a full on fresh curry takes longer but the results are truley amazing. So much so that I cant help trying to think of what else I can do to improve the curry. Grow my own vegetables (tomatoes, eggplants, capsicums), done it. Grow my own chickens (mmm........ maybe eventually). Using freshly made stock, yep heaps better.

What I am saying is that using fresher ingredients should definitely improve a recipe (curry or beer).
I just wish I had a bit more time when it comes to beer.

I dont feel any lesser person for not being an AG'er, I just feel jealous that I havent got to that point yet and cant see me having the time for a while.

Do I love my kits and bits and extract beers? Does a one legged duck swim in circles? You bet ya freakin life.

By the way, this has been a cracker of a thread to follow. I dont think AG'ers are elitist or arrogant or whatever, but some members do look down the ladder they have climbed.

If nothing else, this thread has really peaked my curiosity and I think I will have to do a bit of an AG sooner rather than later and I now know that I dont necessarily have to build an AG brewery first. I reckon I'll give it a go with what Ive got.

Anyway. Time to hit the sack.

See ya.

ATOMT.


----------



## Bizarre (22/6/06)

AngelTearsOnMyTongue said:


> Zwickel said:
> 
> 
> > every mother loves their children, even if they are very ugly, but never tell her
> ...



Jeeze, when can I call in for dinner?


----------



## peas_and_corn (22/6/06)

Wow, this thread has grown!

Anyway, I do AG (only a couple so far... haven't tried one yet!), and will still make extracts because, well, sometimes I'm not really in the mood to make an AG brew.

Everyone should brew what they're comfortable in making, and they deserve all the support they can get from the people here.


----------



## Zwickel (22/6/06)

A very nice statement AngelTearsOnMyTongue, 

it hits just my point of view 

Cheers


----------



## barneyhanway (22/6/06)

AngelTearsOnMyTongue,
thats precisely the difference to me.

Where I am (NZ) I can't get fresh wort kits or super duper fresh extract, there isn't much comparison between what I can brew with grain (big partials at the moment) and what I can brew from a can. Fresh ingredients equals yummier beer. Thats an oversimplification of other aspects of the brewing process, but for me its that simple.
I very quickly migrated from unhopped extract and boiling/hopping etc, to partials with 2 -3kg of grain. As soon as I can get a bigger boil pot its all grain for me.
Even 6 months ago I swore I would never brew from grain, but the difference in freshness and taste is too big to overlook.


----------



## Screwtop (22/6/06)

2,434 registered AHB members, 2434 registered opinions

That's the diversity of life, I for one like to see competitiveness between the Kit, Kits and Bits and AG Fraternities. You will find the same competitiveness in all disciplines, conventional medical practitioners and naturopaths etc. Whatever works for you and most of all makes YOU happy!


Now:



> Now a full on fresh curry takes longer but the results are truley amazing. So much so that I cant help trying to think of what else I can do to improve the curry. Grow my own vegetables (tomatoes, eggplants, capsicums), done it. Grow my own chickens (mmm........ maybe eventually). Using freshly made stock, yep heaps better.



When are we going to have a Fresh Curry thread. How about some recipes, curry goes great with light ales and lagers.

I want to see some recipes ATOMT see if you can find the time PLEASE!


----------



## DrewCarey82 (22/6/06)

However, I think this last comment you have made may be worth putting into perspective. You seem to get peeved at the people who claim their AG brews are superior to your kit brews yet you fight back at them claiming that your Kit's make better beers... I think you may be playing a part of your own problem. 

[/quote]

I dont claim there better, I just claim that they arent shit.


----------



## Aussie Claret (22/6/06)

I have only just gotten into Ag brewing having now made 4, previously I did alot of K&K and partial brews.
Somebody in this thread stated that they were only kidding themselves when they made K&K that were as good as commercial beers. I have to agree to some extent with this comment, whilst I've made quite a few good K&K beers, the majority were pretty average. This is not to say that K&K are bad nor other peoples beers are not exceptional, but IMHO the K&K beers that I made were just average on the whole. 
I'm am not try to be pretentious in any way but the AG beers that I have made are far superior to any K&K that I made. Not only are they superior to the K&K beers I made but I honestly beleive that the few AG's I've made are better than any commercial beer, that I drink.

I am extremely happy with my AG results and wouldn't turn back to K&K.

My comments reflect the beers that I made and I am not in any way trying to discredit other peoples beers or K&K in general, I'm just comparing the beers that I've made.

IMHO the K&K were a good stepping ground for my own progression into making great beer. The techniques and general grounding were and are invaluable.

Cheers
AC


----------



## James Squire (22/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Yeah but certain AG's get so pissed off even at the mention that kits can *make better beers* then AG's.
> 
> Thats what shits me.



Eh hem.....


----------



## Tseay (22/6/06)

Forgive me if I have misunderstood the tone of these posts but, I dont think "beer snobbery" discussions help the cause.

I picked up a first and a second in last years state comp with partial mashes, but the beers sitting in my kegs are doctored ESB kits and I don't think I'll be walking away from them anytime soon.
The vast bulk of brewers are going to be kit or modified kit bewers and they need to be encouraged to stay in the craft and improve their potential. It's for this reason we'll be following Wee Stu's example and including a kit section in this years (November) Castle Hill Championship. It's also why our upcoming team brew of an Imperial Pilsener will include a modifiied kit team.

All grain brewing opens up all sorts of opportunities to produce excellent beer. it also opens up all of sorts opprotunities to produce crap beer.

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde ' its doesn't matter how you brew, but that you brew(to your potential)".

T


----------



## DrewCarey82 (22/6/06)

This thread may have started with good intensions, but has clearly deteriorated.

Is there really any need to comment wether or not one styles better then the other? To me you can produce great beer with either.

The only difference with AG is that you have more control and can literally create anything.

Great if you really want to get into the craft and go the full hog, but most HB's just want to make a nice drinkable beer, similar to what they buy at the bottlo's.

AG's on here need to remember that just because the vaste majority on this board are AG's, it doesnt mean that as a whole the in the homebrew community that the vaste majority are AG's.

What are their about 100'sh regular uses on this board and how many homebrewers out there?

Might be food for thought for you guys.


----------



## James Squire (22/6/06)

Now you're back to making sense Drew, welcome back to sensible street!

You are correct, there is no need to comment on whether one method is better than the other because "DING" correct.... both methods can produce great beer!

Thankyou for accepting my polite criticism and getting back to making this a constructive discussion about each and everyones journey through homebrewing. After all, for the vast majority that is exactly what it is, and most AG'ers here started their journey with K&K/Extract...

JS
(Halfway through the journey... Partials and modded Kits)


----------



## DrewCarey82 (22/6/06)

Its proven to me one thing at this stage of my brewing(where I am not sure if I'll ever bother progressing as I am quite happy with it) that this more a craftbrewers site then a homebrewers site and.

A) I cant contribute anything useful.
B) I cant really learn anything I didnt know.

Have to give serious thought to my continued visiting of it.


----------



## colinw (22/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Its proven to me one thing at this stage of my brewing(where I am not sure if I'll ever bother progressing as I am quite happy with it) that this more a craftbrewers site then a homebrewers site and.
> 
> A) I cant contribute anything useful.
> B) I cant really learn anything I didnt know.
> ...


That's a bit hasty isn't it?

There's plenty of kit and extract discussion in the Recipes and Brewing Questions forums.

Although I am AG, I consider what I do "home brewing" and call myself a "home brewer".

cheers,
Colin
(who belongs to a club where AG, kit & extract brewers co-exist in peaceful harmony)


----------



## redgums500 (22/6/06)

Crumbs!!! My wife is into Dressage (horses for the uninitiated) and I thought they were a surly, bitchy bloody lot, but some of you blokes could run rings around those holier than thou chiks ! I brew for no other reason than the fact that I enjoy it. If i wanted to change how people brew and what they drink I,d make a career change and it would stop becoming a hobby. I couldn't care less if the homebrewer nextdoor stood on his head and vowed it was the only way to brew. What i like is going to be different to the next brewer. This entire argument put up by some on this thread is based on subjectivity... not objectivity. 


My two bob :super:


----------



## benhobbs (22/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Its proven to me one thing at this stage of my brewing(where I am not sure if I'll ever bother progressing as I am quite happy with it) that this more a craftbrewers site then a homebrewers site and.
> 
> A) I cant contribute anything useful.
> B) I cant really learn anything I didnt know.
> ...



Hi Drew,

I think your departure might be a little hasty. 

I am sure it was only within the last couple of days that you were in a discussion about rehydrating yeast that you were a part of. I found it a valueable discussion, it made me question my practices in rehydration. A topic which is useful for K&K and AG brewers alike.

Cheers
Ben


----------



## Murray (22/6/06)

Drew Carey, it seems the further people go out of their way to appease you, the more offended you get. If you are going to be offended by the fact that peoples personal experiences and opinions differ from what you would like them to be, perhaps you should save yourself the grief and not read the thread. I for one wont apologise for the fact that my AG beer is better than beer I made from kits and no-one else should be expected to either. This is an argument of your own making.

With respect to your claim that you cant learn anything you already dont know, with brewing just as in life, the more someone learns, the more they realise they dont know.

I normally don't like to bother getting involved in these threads, Im just annoyed at you firing up at a lot of good people who are doing their best to be PC and to not offend you.


----------



## KoNG (22/6/06)

yeh, Dont leave just yet DC28.....
i'd be so bored at work without you.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (22/6/06)

Yeah may have been a bit of a over-reaction on my part. And I dont expect people to appease me, cause I certainly dont go out of my way to appease others 

However courtesy is contagious.

And Murray feel free to hop off that high horse of yours anytime.


----------



## T.D. (22/6/06)

Drew, I think this is what we are all trying to say - there is no high horse!! You are interpretting these comments as being pretentious, but I don't think they are meant that way in the slightest.

Murry, myself or anybody else saying "I have brewed kits and AG and I prefer the AG" is not a spiteful or elitist comment, its just a comment on what _we_ have found ourselves. Nothing more. I think you are reading into these comments a bit too much. 

In my opinion since I have used a similar brewing technique and approach (in terms of sanitation, temp control etc) for both my old extract brews and my current AG brews, I feel this is a good indication of the _objective_ differences in quality. And in my opinion, the AG beers are better. Full stop. If you don't find that to be the case then great, however, I think you need to have some AG experience before objectively making such a statement. That is, in a nutshell, what I think about this whole issue.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (22/6/06)

Thats a fair comment but as I've re-iterated many times, this maybe the case(I dont know I havent tried AG) and people are welcome to their oppinions.

I have never picked anyone who's phrased it that way, I've only commented on people whom have said that all K&B beers are crap or something similarly disparaging.

And thanks Kong boards like these need personality, otherwise people have zero reason to come back.

If you dont have the odd flamboyant person like myself people quickly loose interest, I actually suggested myself for a mod but was shot down.


----------



## Guest Lurker (22/6/06)

MAH said:


> I say kill the thread, it's not needed.
> 
> Cheers
> MAH



Yes indeedy.


----------



## colinw (22/6/06)

Guest Lurker said:


> MAH said:
> 
> 
> > I say kill the thread, it's not needed.
> ...


I'd better call 000 then, as someone is obviously holding a gun at your head and forcing you to read this thread.


----------



## Murray (22/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> I have never picked anyone who's phrased it that way, I've only commented on people whom have said that all K&B beers are crap or something similarly disparaging.



Like I said, name names, quote posts.



> And thanks Kong boards like these need personality, otherwise people have zero reason to come back.
> 
> If you dont have the odd flamboyant person like myself people quickly loose interest, I actually suggested myself for a mod but was shot down.



You have a very high opinion of yourself, quite unfounded. I come back to read about what is happening in the Australian HB world, not to read the posts of someone trying hard in an attempt to be 'flamboyant' or whatever. Perhaps with a little less posting and a little more reading, you may find it worth coming here for more than just trolling yourself.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (22/6/06)

Murray said:


> You have a very high opinion of yourself, quite unfounded. I come back to read about what is happening in the Australian HB world, not to read the posts of someone trying hard in an attempt to be 'flamboyant' or whatever. Perhaps with a little less posting and a little more reading, you may find it worth coming here for more than just trolling yourself.



Hey, I dont troll on this board at all buddy and if I did I trust the mods, would start freely deleting my posts, however putting a bit of personality in what I do post can make a bland post into a great post.

I've frequently assisted people with query's.


----------



## MAH (22/6/06)

MAH said:


> Just pointing out that the AG vs everyone else thread has been done to death and usualy ends ugly. The AG brewers come off either as condescending prats or arrogant bastards and "everyone" else get deffensive. The more reassuring the AG's are that they are not being denegrating, the more denegrated everyone else feels and the more defensive they get. It's just a downward spiral from there.



Just call me Nostradamus. Even Blind Freddy could see this one coming!

Mods please shut this thread down, this dead horse has been flogged enough.

Cheers
MAH


----------



## jayse (22/6/06)

I can't bring myself to shut it down, drew's delusional self importance has me in fits. :lol:
If the flaming has started........Your all fat and you mothers wear army boots  

I don't have a flame suit....go ahead and flame my arse back but be carefull or i'll fart and singe your eyebrows.


Alcohol fueled brewtality.
Jayse


----------



## devo (22/6/06)

jayse said:


> I can't bring myself to shut it down, drew's delusional self importance has me in fits. :lol:
> If the flaming has started........Your all fat and you mothers wear army boots
> 
> I don't have a flame suit....go ahead and flame my arse back but be carefull or i'll fart and singe your eyebrows.
> ...




click, click, click bugger my lighters buggered.  hang on I'll be back in a second.


----------



## SteveSA (22/6/06)

jayse said:


> I can't bring myself to shut it down, drew's delusional self importance has me in fits. :lol:


 :lol: GOLD :lol:


----------



## James Squire (22/6/06)

jayse said:


> ..... you mothers wear army boots



LOL! :lol: 

I don't get it but she does love those old things! :unsure:  

JS


----------



## redgums500 (22/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Murray said:
> 
> 
> > You have a very high opinion of yourself, quite unfounded. I come back to read about what is happening in the Australian HB world, not to read the posts of someone trying hard in an attempt to be 'flamboyant' or whatever. Perhaps with a little less posting and a little more reading, you may find it worth coming here for more than just trolling yourself.
> ...



Crumbs!!!! not only have we been told how we should be brewing, we also get told what makes a great post, as well as an insight into personalities and paranoia. The diversity and quality of what you can learn on this forum is truly staggering........

redgums


----------



## warrenlw63 (22/6/06)

I'm just wondering if DrewCarey82's form of humorous attention-seeking may lead him to self-mutilation or something similar? :wacko: 

I'm standing by. :lol: 

Warren -


----------



## DrewCarey82 (22/6/06)

Good to see what people think of me on here.


----------



## Beerpig (22/6/06)

I'm just wondering if gathering together to throw rocks at one person reminds me of something?

If only I hadn't killed so many brain cells

Cheers


----------



## DrewCarey82 (22/6/06)

I am still at a loss to see what I've done thats so terrible. I merely said that I dont like seeing kit beers being reffered to as rubbish.... and that I think its a myth to assume that all AG's are better as a rule then kits or partials" 

Yet apparantly now I am supposed to slash my wrists cause people are being smartarses to me.

And if having a personality is a crime to some people then they must be real sad bastards.


----------



## deebee (22/6/06)

I brew partials. Occasionally make a real beauty.

Oops, sorry for the thread highjack.


----------



## T.D. (22/6/06)

deebee said:


> I brew partials. Occasionally make a real beauty.
> 
> Oops, sorry for the thread highjack.



:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## colinw (22/6/06)

By all means, keep this thread going. It just gets better and better.

I'm off to find my combat boots.


----------



## Murray (22/6/06)

Perhaps we need a violin-playing emoticon.


----------



## pharmaboy (22/6/06)

deebee said:


> I brew partials. Occasionally make a real beauty.
> 
> Oops, sorry for the thread highjack.



At the risk of been on topic, I do some fresh worts and some straight kits, and some specialty grains, and one partial - heh' they are all different - they are all better than any commercial under $30 a carton. I've had duds from all areas. Like all things that involve taste, one mans is not another mans. Difference is a fact, better or worse is an opinion based on preference.


----------



## colinw (22/6/06)

I got hooked on brewing when I tasted my very first beer, which was a Coopers Lager kit made with a 1kg pack of Coopers brewing sugar (the stuff with maltodextrin in it).

I still remember the anticipation as the bottles conditioned, then cracking that first tallie on a hot February afternoon just after mowing the lawn. And it was beer! Real beer, and at least as good as pot of XXXX at The Glen.

My wife knew there and then that she had created a monster by giving me a Coopers homebrew setup for my birthday.


----------



## petesbrew (22/6/06)

Spot on Colin.

Good on coopers for making an easy kit to start off with, The barrel, the first brew ingredients & the PET bottles. The first brew is always (well, mostly) a top one!
18months and 12 brews on my wife now calls me a beer nerd.
Time to start stirring the cauldron tonight... bring on the Xmas lager!

p.s. K&K's are too easy, and you've gotta start somewhere. An AG will happen sometime, but I'm still having fun!


----------



## colinw (22/6/06)

That fermenter is still with me ... its my mash tun. That particular version of the Coopers starter setup was really great. HDPE plastic bucket fermenter with clip-on lid, tap and airlock, can o' lager, brewing sugar, hydrometer, a butterfly wing capper, a pack of priming sugar sachets (one per stubby), and a cheesy "how to brew" video with a cute blonde in it.


----------



## tangent (22/6/06)

my Father still brews k&ks: 
1 can coopers stout + 1 kilo of cheap sugar, fermented at 27C religiously. If they don't finish in 5 days it's a drama. I've told him about Tucan stouts and given him malt packs. He said "the bloke in the caravan park thought it was rocket fuel!" and he's back brewing the same old K&Ks again. My Uncle swears by the same method for his stouts. Horses for courses.
....and this horse hasn't tasted a great extract brew (yet?) Build a bridge.........


----------



## Trent (22/6/06)

Wow
Had a shit of a day at work today, so I come home for a beer, some pizza and a play on AHB. I poked my head into this thread when it was still on page one, voted, but didnt bother posting, figured I would do it another time. Today, it is TEN BLOODY PAGES!!!  SO, I brew AG, just because I find it challenging, and enjoyable, alot like cooking, which I also love to do from scratch as much as possible. I make alot of mess doing that too, but I cant hose the kitchen floor <_< . I started doing K+K then progressed down the slope until I got wheer I am now. I have always found my kit and extract beers to have a residual sweetness that immediately identified it as "home brew", and it is a taste I dont enjoy, so I moved to something I do enjoy the taste of. I dont believe I have ever tried a kit beer that I thought tasted great, but understand that kit brewers seem to win more comps than AG'ers, so I am looking forward to trying the kit beers in the july case swap. No doubt some of them will be ranked more highly than my AG offering, and I will freely offer my voice when I consider that to have been the case. At the end of the day, we are all just here to make better beer, so I hope that is what this forum has done for everyone else, it has for me. And, after my shit of a day, I was freakin cacking myself with laughter at some of the posts on here, and now I feel better, so big thanks to all the funny buggers! Thats the main reason I wanted to post - you guys are hilarious! :super: 
All the best
Trent
PS Someone bait Weizguy into posting, it will be his thousandth post, and I would give him curry if it were in here B)


----------



## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (22/6/06)

Guest Lurker said:


> MAH said:
> 
> 
> > I say kill the thread, it's not needed.
> ...





Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Dont kill the thread.....it didnt do anything wrong!....Iiiiiit waaaasnt iiiits faaaault!


I promise I will look after it.....Ill feed it.



Oh sorry! I .....I....I......sorry! :blink:


----------



## jayse (23/6/06)

I'll keep feeding it if you like............

Not only are you all fat and have mums in army boots your missus came around my house yesterday while you were at work, can you all ask your wives/sisters/daughters to make appointments? as i'am getting a little inundated here. :lol: 

Caught between heaven and hell
Jayse


----------



## warrenlw63 (23/6/06)

And let's not get started on mothers that are hamsters and fathers that smell of elderberries.  

Warren -


----------



## DrewCarey82 (23/6/06)

colinw said:


> I got hooked on brewing when I tasted my very first beer, which was a Coopers Lager kit made with a 1kg pack of Coopers brewing sugar (the stuff with maltodextrin in it).
> 
> I still remember the anticipation as the bottles conditioned, then cracking that first tallie on a hot February afternoon just after mowing the lawn. And it was beer! Real beer, and at least as good as pot of XXXX at The Glen.
> 
> My wife knew there and then that she had created a monster by giving me a Coopers homebrew setup for my birthday.



Hahahaha that was like my first success I honestly didnt know what to expect it was two weeks in the bottle and then I poured and it was like... - Looks like beer, it has bubbles!

I then smelt it - Smells like beer!

Tasted it, "Its beer!"

Was a wonderful experience.


----------



## Bizarre (23/6/06)

jayse said:


> I'll keep feeding it if you like............
> 
> Not only are you all fat and have mums in army boots your missus came around my house yesterday while you were at work, can you all ask your wives/sisters/daughters to make appointments? as i'am getting a little inundated here. :lol:
> 
> ...


 Yeah well I heard from reputable sources that your underwear smells and you fight like a girl! LOL


----------



## Hubby (23/6/06)

This thread's a bloody crack up :beer: 

I brew, I wait and I drink ... then I do it all over again. Can't be happier :chug:


----------



## Steve (23/6/06)

Holy crap! Have a day off work and come back to this marathon! Im speechless! Guess what im brewing tomorrow? ESB 3kg APA, with US56 with my own addition of cascade and amarillo in secondary!!! h34r: 
Cheers
Steve

P.S. All grain brewers smell of poo n wee n stuff


----------



## Stuster (23/6/06)

All together now. You know the tune.

AG! AG! AG! Oi! Oi! Oi! 
AG! AG! AG! Oi! Oi! Oi!
AG! Oi! AG! Oi!
AG! AG! AG! Oi! Oi! Oi! :super: 

Go the Socceroos!


----------



## Steve (23/6/06)

K & K & KK oi oi oi
K & K & KK oi oi oi
K & K & KK oi oi oi

Shit! When you type that out if looks as if i should be wearing a white hood! Please note i have never, am not and never will wear one.

Go the Aussies. Sack the ref!
Cheers
Steve


----------



## colinw (23/6/06)

You've just given me a hilarious mental image of a bunch of white hooded K&K brewers carrying torches and looking for snobby AGers to tar & feather


----------



## DrewCarey82 (23/6/06)

I am up for some lynching :{


----------



## colinw (23/6/06)

I think us all-grainers need to retire to the grand lodge and practice our secret handshakes. Getting dangerous out there.


----------



## Steve (23/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> I am up for some lynching :{




I'll bring the tin of petrol to burn the mash tun esky things with metal grates in the bottom!
You bring the grinder to chop up those big keg boil pot things! :lol: 

Cheers
Steve


----------



## Stuster (23/6/06)

colinw said:


> A bunch of white hooded K&K brewers carrying torches and looking for cruelly oppressed AGers to tar & feather



Mash power! We are the Black Mashers fighting the KKK supremacists!


----------



## Steve (23/6/06)

Steve said:


> DrewCarey82 said:
> 
> 
> > I am up for some lynching :{
> ...




..... :lol: and you know were the mashmaster thermometers goes dont you? eh? eh? :lol:


----------



## colinw (23/6/06)

Please don't hurt my refractometer!


----------



## Samwise Gamgee (23/6/06)

KKK = Kit & Kilo Krusaders? h34r:


----------



## Stuster (23/6/06)

Steve and Drew's army. :lol:


----------



## Duff (23/6/06)

Bravo Stuster


----------



## Steve (23/6/06)

Duff said:


> Bravo Stuster




C'mon Franko - two beer labels please - see Stusters post for design!
Cheers
Steve


----------



## colinw (23/6/06)

Any AGers caught out on the streets after curfew will be dipped in Bilo Draught extract, rolled in CSR sugar, and then force fed VB with a funnel.


----------



## Stuster (23/6/06)

colinw said:


> Any AGers caught out on the streets after curfew will be dipped in Bilo Draught extract, rolled in CSR sugar, and then force fed VB with a funnel.



The horror, the horror.


----------



## devo (23/6/06)

Stuster said:


> colinw said:
> 
> 
> > Any AGers caught out on the streets after curfew will be dipped in Bilo Draught extract, rolled in CSR sugar, and then force fed VB with a funnel.
> ...




oh lord, what have I done?


----------



## TasChris (23/6/06)

I'll bring the tin of petrol to burn the mash tun esky things with metal grates in the bottom!
You bring the grinder to chop up those big keg boil pot things! :lol: 


That would be bloody K+K petrol coming out of a tin. Us AG people would distil our own petrol from crude oil pumped from a British rig in the North Sea


----------



## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (23/6/06)

colinw said:


> You've just given me a hilarious mental image of a bunch of white hooded K&K brewers carrying torches and looking for snobby AGers to tar & feather



Who's the grand poobah of the *Kit Kilo Klan*? :blink:


----------



## Doc (23/6/06)

Wow, I'm surprised at the number of members that have replied to the poll. Must give a very good representation for the statisticians 

Doc


----------



## PistolPatch (23/6/06)

(Have had 2 complaints from forum members today that I have not made an excessively long post in at least a week. The following is for them - thought I'd slip it in here. Maybe no one will notice  ) 

Crikey! Over 150 posts to this topic in 3 days! There's no way I'm reading this whole thread but Devo's initial comments were pretty spot on. I hope an idea I have below would be of some help in minimising the vibe that Devo mentioned.* 

Firstly though, I haven't voted as I'm unsure as to how to vote. As far as I can work out, it depends on what quality of beer you find acceptable and how much time you've got.

*AG:* I have recently started AG and am over-joyed with the results. For beers that I want to consume and really appreciate, I would only go AG but there are two obvious problems. As Devo said, AG can be confusing and very intimidating. I believe this can be rectified. AG can also be time-consuming but this is relative (see Kits below).

*Extract:* I've never done it. I have also never tasted it. But, I know from conversations with other experienced brewers here that you can produce an exceptional beer. Despite this, extract doesn't interest me at all as it still involves the time-consuming aspect. You really need to do a boil. You also need to have a good source of fresh extract and get your hops right etc. I think extract would actually be far harder than an AG when you add in the risk factor of quality of ingredients. For the extra effort of mashing, I'd prefer the peace of mind (and forgiveness) of AG. After all, a mash isn't really too time-consuming - its the boiling and cooling of a brew, whether it be AG, extract or kit that take the time. (Especially if you were taught as I was by very bad and irresponsible people who encouraged drinking at the start of the brew day. :angry: ) 

*Kits:* I have tried several times for many months to brew a good beer using a kit - one without that grippy taste on the side of your tongue. I have never succeeded and I think my brewing procedure and control were well within acceptable parameters. The best ones I did were 4-5 months old. Considering many AGs can be drinkable in 10 days after pitching of yeast (assuming kegged), the 'time-consuming' aspect of AG/kit is quite debatable. If I brewed 23 litres per week and had to wait 4 months for it to be drinkable, I would need ennough space to store around 12 cubes/kegs or 720 stubbies!

Kit brews were the reason I gave up brewing twice before but that could be my palate and the age of kits I was supplied with. I have had one kit beer without any sign of the above taste (cheers OldDog) but for all I know, OldDog, might just have a better home brew store than I do (fresher kits). If I could brew a beer from a kit that didn't have that taste, then I would. Be nice to be able to have my mates be drinking that than my craft-brewed beer! (I better get OldDog's secret!)

* The following might be a little off-topic so read on at your own peril. It does contain, at the end, an idea on how to minimise the extract versus AG vibe and also some other vibes that we can occassionally experience here. Feel free to skip to last paragraph if you are actually still reading this!

For those considering starting AG, AHB can be the best and worst of your brewing friends. It's been my worst friend in the fact that I read too much. AHB is not split into beginner, intermediary and advanced sections for any brewing method, let alone AG. This is, as Devo said, can be hugely confusing and intimidating to the newbie regardless of brewing method. 

When I joined AHB, I was full of enthusiasm. (I still take several hours to write a post such as this - the fact that I have no current girlfriend is totally unrelated to my ongoing enthusiasm <_< ) I took everything I read here to be gospel and therfore highly important. This lead me into investigating and learning about things totally irrelevant to my level of brewing. For example, when I joined here, there was a big topic about yeast strains or starters or whatever. I read up fully on this but didn't find out for about 4 months that my studies on this and many other things were in vain. It was through PM's sent to me that I found out that if I was buying old kits or even using kits, there's no way I'd be able to brew the beer I was after.

AHB has also been my best brewing friend. I now know I can get on here and search for a specific answer which is great. Far more importantly though I met people through AHB.

Ross taught me how to brew an AG. He put himself out in what I think was a large way, to ensure I succeeded. This was before he started retailing, so him educating me was just for the fun of passing knowledge on and having the benefit of meeting someone as witty as myself. (He'll get that joke!)

Before I met Ross face to face, there were many other brewers, moderators and retailers (MHB and GMK) who looked after me.

I think I have now written a reasonably excessively long post. So, in summary, if there are any new brewers out there getting frustrated with the results of their brewing method, just put a post up here saying, 'I'm unhappy with my beer.' There's heaps of people here that will soon get your fridge full of a beer that you _are_ happy with.

Oh! And as for my idea...

I think it would be great if, when you started a topic or made a post on AHB, there was a drop down list that allowed you to categorise your post as, 'Beginner,' 'Intemediate,' or, 'Advanced.' On the latest threads list, these could have a colour. This way, experienced brewers wouldn't be reading stuff they have read a million times before unless they wanted to offer some advice. Newbies would also feel a bit less inhibited in posting to the forum - they could progress and advance with people at their own level and also have a little help from time to time from more experienced brewers. They would also not be distracted by topics irrellevant to their experience. I think this would be really easy to implement and would stop most people from giving up brewing like I did twice before. It would also dissolve or at least reduce those, 'vibes,' experienced amongst brewers of different skill levels/methods.

OK, that's long enough!

Cheers
PP


----------



## lou (23/6/06)

Well I've avoided chiming in up until now but things have really gotten out of hand

back in my day.....

I actually have something to say about this. 

With K+K there are so many things runnning against you (from personal experience)

there are just so many different kits :blink: 

where do you start - which one is any good? (how many threads have we had on that - very few replies ususally)

if you want to tart one up cause you found it really average which hop?s - how much extra extract?

so many possiblilties and when starting out you need to cut down possibilities so you dont end up with slops and blow the whole thing off. Ther is no asy way of calcing it unlike with AG - you can only really do trial and error - for instance what diff does boiling a kit make - how can you work out what adjustments to make to the recipie if you can't work out what boiling it does to IBU-OG-yeast nutrient - hops flavour - its a like opening a can of worms (just like this thread)

esp with 1.7 Kg of malt - why sell 1.7 kg of malt that is bittered to produce 23L?

I rekon the only reason they sell them in that size is cause dog food cans are mass produced and cheap.

For this reason I have more faith in the 3kg tins - at least you know that it is designed as a 20L~ batch without sugar which should never be used (with a few rare and obviuos exceptions like beligians)

I have tasted some excellent K+K to my own suprise. but again same person diff can was bollocks - he got lucky

how much malt do you want to waste before you hit the button?

and what about bulk xtract - is it fresh? what about dodgy yeast everywhere (I know it happens alot- up here in brissy gets very hot in summer - does the hbs have a fridge?

brew on :super: 

lou


----------



## Bizarre (23/6/06)

PistolPatch said:


> (Have had 2 complaints from forum members today that I have not made an excessively long post in at least a week. The following is for them - thought I'd slip it in here. Maybe no one will notice  )
> .............
> 
> Snipety snip
> ...


 

Hey I saw this post PP and I thought - "Should go grab a beer it'll be a long one" 

LOL You didnt disappoint either mate! Just out of interest - How long do keyboards last you on average?


----------



## vlbaby (23/6/06)

PP,
You really need to come out of your shell and speak up more  


 

vl.


----------



## Millet Man (23/6/06)

Technically I'm the only All Grain brewer on this forum - I start with Grain and make my own malt.

You're either K&Klansmen or All Malt brewers. Does your husband know how to brew? h34r: 

Cheers, Andrew.

P.S. Apologies to any biological ladies out there.

P.P.S. Is there a tounge in cheek smilie?


----------



## vlbaby (23/6/06)

come on Millet man! Your not a real brewer till your got some gluten in your brew! h34r: 

oops just kiddin.  


vl.


----------



## Murray (23/6/06)

The only 'all-grain' brewer? I'm sure most of us are happy using hops and yeast as well as grain


----------



## Millet Man (23/6/06)

vlbaby said:


> come on Millet man! Your not a real brewer till your got some gluten in your brew! h34r:
> 
> oops just kiddin.
> 
> ...



<_<  Nice one!

Time for another pint of lager, sans gluten.

Cheers, Andrew.


----------



## Millet Man (23/6/06)

Murray said:


> The only 'all-grain' brewer? I'm sure most of us are happy using hops and yeast as well as grain



OK I'll allow hops and yeast - just no dogs.  

Cheers, Andrew.


----------



## Murray (23/6/06)

Don't discriminate against brewers who add dog :angry:


----------



## /// (23/6/06)

As a Man much greater than I has said;

' In every Extract Brewer - There is a Masher just CRYING to get out!'.

Maybe get out and throw some pettie ey' - if you live in Minto....

Scotty


----------



## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (23/6/06)

Murray said:


> Don't discriminate against brewers who add dog :angry:




.......or two dogs!


----------



## Steve (24/6/06)

Well I was going to start a new thread but......I thought this one was quite appropriate given my input into this topic. Drew! my ole mate, chum, buddy K&K buddy...I have something I need to tell you. Now dont take this the wrong way, its not you its me OK? Well....ive just finished my first partial mash  Just put it too bed five minutes ago, wrapped up in his 100 cooler bag with two frozen coke bottles to keep him company. Mate! what can I say? Call me a turn coat, a collaborator, a two faced git? but I just had to do it. I couldnt handle the pull from the dark side! Crikey those grains smelt nice mashing! I wont forget you. I'll always remember the times we had brewing those tins. But hopefully this may cheer you up a bit I just bottled two grumpys kits and racked a kit. Sorry man! I have to go now as Im quite emotional  
Cheers
Steve


----------



## tangent (24/6/06)

> Technically I'm the only All Grain brewer on this forum - I start with Grain and make my own malt.


 and what makes you think this is your domain only???


----------



## PistolPatch (24/6/06)

Bizarre said:


> Hey I saw this post PP and I thought - "Should go grab a beer it'll be a long one"
> 
> LOL You didnt disappoint either mate! Just out of interest - How long do keyboards last you on average?



I'm glad it only took you one beer to read it - it took me about 24 to write it if you include the beers at yesterday's arvo bbq :blink: Sorry about that post - probably the longest I've written without much of a point - lol, though I do like the categorising your posts idea. I could categorise mine as, "Sleep-inducing."

Keyboard lasts a lifetime - it's ceramic!

LOL
Pat


----------



## Bizarre (24/6/06)

I wondered if there was a way for the mods to check who had done the longest post ever - I'd be flamin' surprised if you werent there or there about PP.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Steve said:


> Well I was going to start a new thread but......I thought this one was quite appropriate given my input into this topic. Drew! my ole mate, chum, buddy K&K buddy...I have something I need to tell you. Now dont take this the wrong way, its not you its me OK? Well....ive just finished my first partial mash  Just put it too bed five minutes ago, wrapped up in his 100 cooler bag with two frozen coke bottles to keep him company. Mate! what can I say? Call me a turn coat, a collaborator, a two faced git? but I just had to do it. I couldnt handle the pull from the dark side! Crikey those grains smelt nice mashing! I wont forget you. I'll always remember the times we had brewing those tins. But hopefully this may cheer you up a bit I just bottled two grumpys kits and racked a kit. Sorry man! I have to go now as Im quite emotional
> Cheers
> Steve



Well this w/end ole buddy I just did my first mini-mash as well, a belgium ale  For certain beers I shall definately go all out but some are delicous the way they are.

I have to say Steve it definately was a lot funner then I thought aye? And bloody satisfying, certainly more satisfying then a kit and bits.

I'll be interested to drink the result thats for sure..... I even splashed out for a saf-ale!


----------



## Steve (26/6/06)

[/quote]

Well this w/end ole buddy I just did my first mini-mash as well, a belgium ale  For certain beers I shall definately go all out but some are delicous the way they are.

I have to say Steve it definately was a lot funner then I thought aye? And bloody satisfying, certainly more satisfying then a kit and bits.

I'll be interested to drink the result thats for sure..... I even splashed out for a saf-ale!
[/quote]

Coincidence eh? Yep - lots of fun - very easy too. Didnt have a clue as to hop additions though. I did an APA and chuked in Amarillo, Chinook and Cascade (at 60, 30 and 5 mins). Just wait for the replies now from the AGers. Cant wait to taste it, smells declicious through the happily bubblin away airlock! Must have done something right! Wow and a safe ale too - now your really splashing out. Im off to buy two 18.9 litre stock pots this week to do another on Saturday!
Cheers
Steve


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Was actually tempted to split into 2 lots for the saf-ale and put 1 in a bottle in the fridge just with water.

I already have a stockpot that I use for it, mine I just had the grain, in the grain bag for an hour at 65 degrees.

Then strained the grain using funnily enough a strainer, the liquid back into the pot(didnt bother with 2 pots).

Added 1kg of liquid malt, brought to boil added 20g of fuggles at start, 10g of fuggles at 15 min mark, and 20g again at the end.

Poured into fermentor(noted happily hadnt burnt pot) added the kit, then stirred it, in poured water in til 20 ltrs, added saf-ale.

And yeah 3 hours later was happily bubbling away.

Lot easier then we thought aye?(Thats what was deterring me) And your right definately great fun.

Did you buy a premade grain enhancer pack? - I did it was powdered amber grain.


----------



## Steve (26/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Was actually tempted to split into 2 lots for the saf-ale and put 1 in a bottle in the fridge just with water.
> 
> I already have a stockpot that I use for it, mine I just had the grain, in the grain bag for an hour at 65 degrees.
> 
> ...




Nahhhh - I used a bag of grain - Weyermann Munich Type 2 :blink:
Cheers
Steve


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

Drew,

For your next partial (hopefully you'll do more) why not try a pilsner? In my opinion, this is ther sort of style where you will notice the virtues of mashing grains the most. 

Something like:

1kg LME
3kg Pilsner malt mashed at 65deg
Bitter to 35 IBUs with 60min addition
25g Saaz @ 20mins
25g Saaz @ 5 mins
Saflager yeast at lager temps.

I reckon this sort of brew is one which will really get the tastebuds excited. But warning, it may induce alcoholism (moreso)!


----------



## Steve (26/6/06)

T.D. said:


> Drew,
> 
> For your next partial (hopefully you'll do more) why not try a pilsner? In my opinion, this is ther sort of style where you will notice the virtues of mashing grains the most.
> 
> ...



Cheers TD - might have to scribble that one down. How much saaz at 60mins? And you add the LME for the last 5-10 mins?
Steve


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Actually a huge pilsener fan will have to try that one as it looks to be a tad cheaper then some partials that I've seen.


----------



## colinw (26/6/06)

Oh the irony of it all, that this thread would end with DrewCarey82 and Steve discussing WHICH GRAINS they used in their most recent batches.

Welcome to the dark side! :super:

Yesterday I helped a friend of mine keg for the first time.

His beer was an APA made from a Coopers can, DME, a couple of hundred grams of steeped crystal, Amarillo hops and US-56 yeast. It was absolutely delicious straight out of the fermenter, and we drank some more as soon as we had force carbed it. Excellent head retention, great flavour, a hint of grain character from the steeped crystal. Kits CAN and DO make great beer - but you have to work at it.


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

Steve,

I literally just came up with that recipe on the run - it would be worth your while throwing it into some kind of recipe calculator or something to check the OGs and IBUs etc etc.

An AG pilsner I did a while ago that used Czech Saaz for bittering I think was 70g from memory, butr again, its worth double checking that sort of thing. You don't NEED saaz at 60 - any bittering hops will do, but obviously you will need to adjust the amount for the higher alpha.

I don't think it will technically make much difference to the flavour if you add the LME at the beginning of the boil or the end, but what it will do is affect your hop utilisation. As the gravity of your boil increases so does the hop utilisation, meaning you will get more IBUs from the same amount of hops. So all these things make a difference. This is why brewing software is so handy - it takes the guess work out - it automatically adjusts gravity etc as you change the ingredients and other variables. 

I hope I am not making it all seem complicated. Its great to see you guys giving it a stab, and obviously at this stage the simpler the better.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

By mashed that means just left in the grain bag, in the water at that temperature doesnt it?

There is no actual mashing is there.


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

I just threw this recipe into Beertools. I have never used Beertools for a partial mash before so I have no idea if I am totally missing something! Anybody else who has comments on the recipe etc please feel free to share them...

I think this recipe assumes you are boiling the LME for the full 60mins. Its a 15L boil which means you might end up with about 10L of extract, so you'll need to top up the fermenter with 10L of water.


BeerTools.com Recipe Results E-mail

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pils Partial Mash
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

General
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Category: Pilsner
Subcategory: Bohemian Pilsener
Recipe Type: Partial Mash
Batch Size: 20 liters
Volume Boiled: 15 liters
Mash Efficiency: 75 %
Total Grain/Extract: 4.00 kg.
Total Hops: 70.0 g.
Calories (12 fl. oz.): 189.1
Cost to Brew: $26.58 (USD)
Cost per Bottle (12 fl. oz.): $0.47 (USD)

Ingredients
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 kg. Australian Pilsner
1 kg. Liquid Light Extract
20 g. Northern Brewer (Pellets, 10 %AA) boiled 60 minutes.
25 g. Czech Saaz (Pellets, 3.5 %AA) boiled 20 minutes.
25 g. Czech Saaz (Pellets, 5.00 %AA) boiled 5 minutes.
Yeast: DCL Yeast Saflager S-23 Genuine Lager Yeast

Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Vital Statistics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Gravity: 1.048
Terminal Gravity: 1.014
Color: 3.40 SRM
Bitterness: 34.2 IBU
Alcohol (%volume): 4.4 %

--
Results prepared by BeerTools.com
http://www.beertools.com/


----------



## berazafi (26/6/06)

T.D. said:


> 1kg LME
> 3kg Pilsner malt mashed at 65deg
> Bitter to 35 IBUs with 60min addition
> 25g Saaz @ 20mins
> ...



So close to an All grain, just change the 1kg LME to 2-3Kg of Pilsner malt and your there


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

And over to the dark side I think not!

Also for that Pilsener recipe how much water do I need to boil?

Cheers.


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> By mashed that means just left in the grain bag, in the water at that temperature doesnt it?
> 
> There is no actual mashing is there.



Nah, just literally soaking cracked grain in hot water for a certain perion of time at a certain temp.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Also I hear about people having burners/heaters ect to heat their pots or whatever.

Whats stopping me from doing it on the stove?

And also how many litres for the pilsener recipes for the boil?

Cheers.


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

berazafi said:


> T.D. said:
> 
> 
> > 1kg LME
> ...



Yeah, I know! :beer: 

I just saw reference in a previous post to using 1kg of LME so I figured I'd just go with that and add grains to get it to the right OG. I am just throwing something together with this recipe! haha

But the more grain you use the more you will see the characteristics it adds to the beer.

If you mash in a stainless pot you should be fine for space. A 10L esky might be a slightly different story but you might just squeeze it in.


----------



## Steve (26/6/06)

It is - ironic isnt it!
Drew - do a search by a bloke called cubbie on his step by step partial mash instructions.
Thanks guys - will give that pilsner partial a burl, love me pilseners!
Cheers
Steve


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Also I hear about people having burners/heaters ect to heat their pots or whatever.
> 
> Whats stopping me from doing it on the stove?
> 
> ...



Nothings stopping you using the stove. If its an electric stove be very careful with boilovers though as they have much less control than gas. 

The boil will be around 15L (so should be ok on the stove). The idea is to add 3L of water to every kg of grain. So you'll need 9L of water at around 74-75deg. When you add the grain it should drop to the 65-67 range (which will do). Stir in the grain so you don't ahve any dough balls and you get a nice mushy looking consistency. Let that sit for 1hr. Then let all the wort run out of the grain (using a strainer or something similar), then add another 9L of ~75deg water to the grain to wash the sugars off it. You should collect around 15L of wort (around 3L will remain soaked up in the spent grain). The add the 1kg of LME to that liquid, mix it in and bring it to the boil. Just watch it constantly in case of a boilover. The rest is fairly self-explanatory...


----------



## Steve (26/6/06)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&hl=partial


----------



## Steve (26/6/06)

Drew - I did mine on the stove (electric) on Saturday no worries. with a 8litre pot (mash) and a 15 litre pot (boil). Im going to the shop called the warehouse - to buy two new pots. They have some 18.9 litre ones for sale for $13.99. That'll do me for starters, to get the hang of things.....thanks guys. Feel free to keep the partial recipes coming in.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## berazafi (26/6/06)

TD, in beersmith use the all grain calculator, otherwise it thinks you are not mashig

I think we may have got a little off topic hear as my catagorization would be

[email protected] = [email protected] possible extract if adding hops

Extract = using extract to replace grain, but possibly steaping grain for extra flavor (no MASHING)

Partial = using a scaled down grain bill, and adding extract to bring up the final gravity. 

All grain = using no malt extract at all.

The topic is extract or all grain

no partial or all grain

Either way interesting discusion

Dave


----------



## Steve (26/6/06)

Apologies for getting off topic.


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

It maybe an idea for a mod to break off and start this as a new topic for future reference?


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

berazafi said:


> TD, in beersmith use the all grain calculator, otherwise it thinks you are not mashig
> 
> I think we may have got a little off topic hear as my catagorization would be
> 
> ...



Yeah, I wish I had access to Beersmith at work, but I've only got it at home, that's why I used Beertools, but I have very little experience with beertools.

I figured this thread had kind of done its dash a bit already. I'm just happy to see some of the extract brewers at least experimenting with grains a bit so they can then make a decision on which form of brewing they prefer from their own personal experience. PMs are just the half way house on the road to AG, so its kind of relevant!


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Coffee-Machine-Acce...1QQcmdZViewItem

Would this be a suitable thermometre?


----------



## KoNG (26/6/06)

T.D. said:


> I don't think it will technically make much difference to the flavour if you add the LME at the beginning of the boil or the end, but what it will do is affect your hop utilisation. As the gravity of your boil increases so does the hop utilisation, meaning you will get more IBUs from the same amount of hops.



well hasn't this thread had a change of direction..... :blink: 
this is probably a little OT to the original thread topic, not that i recall what that was.
But seeing though you K&K boys  are gathering your partial information now... note: T.D has the above info around the wrong way i think ( monday morning i guess  ) but from my recollection hop utilization decreases with increased gravity.... so you might be better off waiting to add the LME nearer the end of boil.

Cheers
KoNG


----------



## berazafi (26/6/06)

T.D. said:


> berazafi said:
> 
> 
> > TD, in beersmith use the all grain calculator, otherwise it thinks you are not mashig
> ...



Agree

I wonder how many people do partials, once your understand the process, its costing you $10+ for the extract, and effectivly taking as much time, you do 5 or 6 of those and you could buy the gear for a bigger mash tun, and do a couple of smaller boils on the stove.



Dave


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Thats what I am thinking this partial method sounds exactly the same as AG.

At the moment finances dont permit me to do AG, but once my stocks are full I'll be able to save $30 odd bucks a week towards it.


----------



## Lukes (26/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Coffee-Machine-Acce...1QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> Would this be a suitable thermometre?


Drew
You would be better of getting the mash master one so you can use it in your all grain rig you will be building later this year as the darkness creeps and you JOIN US.


:super: 
Luke
Sorry but could not help myself on that one


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

True, but I am on a shoe string budget ATM(Missus has been off work for 3 weeks and has used up all her sick leave so its been my mediocre income supporting us.)

Would that one on ebay do for the short term?


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

KoNG said:


> note: T.D has the above info around the wrong way i think ( monday morning i guess  ) but from my recollection hop utilization decreases with increased gravity.... so you might be better off waiting to add the LME nearer the end of boil.
> 
> Cheers
> KoNG



Yep, it appears I got that one arse about face.

Thanks KoNG, ya clever bugger! :lol:


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> True, but I am on a shoe string budget ATM(Missus has been off work for 3 weeks and has used up all her sick leave so its been my mediocre income supporting us.)
> 
> Would that one on ebay do for the short term?



It all depends on how accurate it is. When you are dealing with mash temps just one or two degrees makes a considerable difference (just ask KoNG in a few weeks when his latest Bitter is ready to drink! :lol: ). If its accurate it will be fine. And geez, if it sells for 99c then you can't go wrong even if its a couple of degrees out - just use it to froth your milk instead!


----------



## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (26/6/06)

Oh My God.

This thread is fantastic. 

Drew has been *outed*. Dragged kicking and screaming over to towards AG. I'll give you a fortnight before you do a complete AG drew.

I have to say I feel a little left out  .....and a little betrayed Drew  .

I just hope you can remember your roots and your old KKK friends drew, and dont start looking down on us.......  

But seriously, this thread is truely inspiring and I feel my AGness quivering for release.  

Can I make another point here....



Guest Lurker said:


> MAH said:
> 
> 
> > I say kill the thread, it's not needed.
> ...



If this thread had been *killed*. Drew and Steve would not have been pushed over the edge.

I am teetering too. The only thing holding me back is the lack of funds and the fact that I have an extract "little creatures" to brew.

Thank god the mods did not see fit to sensor this discussion and allowed us 'grown-ups" to decide for ourselves.

Very good lesson to learn here. "Dont decide for me, what conversations (threads) I can and cant participate in."

I hope we are still a nation of free thinkers.


..................*Ouch!*

I just grazed my shin slipping off my soapbox.

Anyway. 

Go the Aussies. Another Late night coming up.

ATOMT


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Stuff it I am getting the bugger.

Cheers mate.

And Angel, all you need is a decent sized stock pot and a thermometer to do a partial.....

Seriously try it and you'll see how fun it is....

And will probably still do kit & bits to keep my stocks up and give visitors something to drink as a coopers draught with CBE2 is easily the equal of tooheys new, carlton cold ect.

And being a unit dweller these monster set ups some have are totally out of the question.


----------



## Steve (26/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Stuff it I am getting the bugger.
> 
> Cheers mate.
> 
> ...




Onya Drew....very good point Angel about the thread deletion request. Must admit though Ive been thinking about doing one for a while - I just couldnt bring myself to tell Drew! Over and out from me - no more hijacking.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Gee's am I really that scary 

Though I have to admit thinking back I do get very passionate dont I.

And Stevo dont forget we've still gotta try partial and AG's before we see if they are better or not.... They may indeed be a myth.


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> And Stevo dont forget we've still gotta try partial and AG's before we see if they are better or not.... They may indeed be a myth.



I'll pretend I didn't see that comment...


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Well just being honest.

Dont forget I am in the AHB Xmas for July Sydney batch so I'll be trying veteran AG's and not just my virgin attempts. - So it will be a fair judgement.


----------



## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (26/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> ..........not just my virgin attempts.



WRONG!

You did a partial so Idont think you are technically still a Virgin. I am though....although I have steeped crystal before.

 

ATOMT


----------



## KoNG (26/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> And being a unit dweller these monster set ups some have are totally out of the question.



DC82, you'll be surprised what you can achie ve if you really want to. I'm in a 2 bedroom unit with SWMBO, unfortunately for her 60% of the 2nd room is dedicated to brewing. But i cant brew in there, so every brew day i have to take everything out of the unit into the courtyard area to brew (and quite often it goes travelling in the back of the subaru to brew @ a mates place), so dont let unit living put you off, it's well doable.. and fun too, just yesterday i had a mate over for coffee's and beers while brewing, we watched the Nicole and Keith circus in the sky  , helped a lady climb over a fence :blink: and chatted to passers by wondering what the hell was going on.?!?!? 

i love brew day.. (and decent weather :lol: ) (and all the hot lass's that live in the unit block behind)


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Yeah but I dont have a car so transporting the gear is out of the question.

Luckily she goes to visit her grandparents on Saturdays from about 9-5pm so I can take over the kitchen and not have her nagging me to the shithouse.

And in my spare room I normally have 4 fermentators bubbling away and definately not room for anymore.

Pretty much all I can see that you need for basic, basic partial is.

1. decent sized stockpot.
2. thermometre.
3. grain bag.
4. usual bits and peices for brewing.


----------



## Steve (26/6/06)

DrewCarey82 said:


> Yeah but I dont have a car so transporting the gear is out of the question.
> 
> Luckily she goes to visit her grandparents on Saturdays from about 9-5pm so I can take over the kitchen and not have her nagging me to the shithouse.
> 
> ...



Drew - have a read of this:
http://www.elogicmedia.com.au/homebrew/
Its more or less what I did on the weekend.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

That looks f--king complicated I have to say man, dont you reckon it would be easier to use a grain bag as I did though? and then maybe have a smaller second saucepan to do a small repeat with the grain?


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Anyone know what I can expect to pay for a cheap esky at go-lo or big w ect?

I am after about a 6can or there abouts.

Can I get for around $10-15sh?

Cheers.


----------



## colinw (26/6/06)

This is getting surreal.

I should take some photos of my AG system, to show just how cheap & nasty (read: cobbled together pile of junk) an AG rig can be and still make great beer.


----------



## berazafi (26/6/06)

Ok, all grain does not have to cost much, and is not that complicated yes toys are nice, but they often confuse the issue

I am going to set my self a challange, a 20L batch of all grain, for under 10 bucks of equipment. I will buy everything off the the self 


I know my temperture equipment should be acurate ( and i use a calibrated meter and thermocouple for my normal brewing) but given the 10 dollar budget i will see how i go.

Im glad that i did not have to spend big dollars to find out how to do an all grain, because now i can work out what areas i want I need to improve or speed up and spend the money only once.

The 10 dollars in equipment will also be quickly recouped in the savings in all grain as opossed to a extract i would think


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Sent Gerard of Northern districts this email, do you guys reckon it sounds okay for a recipe, also posted this as an indicator of what 1 can cost.

Total of $27.

Pilsener.
3kg of Pilsener malt. (Powells 3kg from you @ $2.50kg + 20c fee for cracking, Total = $8.10)
1kg of light malt extract. (Getting from elsewhere)
50g of saaz hops. (You sell in 100g pack for that so, Total = $8)
Saf-lager yeast(You sell, Total = $4.50)

Total = $20.50 to Lidcombe.

Recipe. - This sounds okay by the people I've run it through so far. - Though your an expert so can you confirm? - Cheers.

Cook the malt at 3kg's for 1h and 15 mins in 9 litres of water.
Sift back to boiler(am buying an esky.)
Put grain back in esky with hot tap water for 15 mins in 2 litres of water
Add whats their into 9 litres done earlier.
Bring to boil, add 1 litre of Light malt extract.
Start of boil add 20g of Saaz.
30 minute mark add 10g of Saaz.
End of boil add 20g of Saaz.


----------



## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (26/6/06)

colinw said:


> This is getting surreal.
> 
> I should take some photos of my AG system, to show just how cheap & nasty (read: cobbled together pile of junk) an AG rig can be and still make great beer.




Please do that colinw. I would love to see them.


----------



## berazafi (26/6/06)

Drew

Its not quite correct, if you can wait 1 or 2 days i will have a full post up on the process using my 10 dollar equipment

You should also be able to do one at least 5 buck cheaper 

David


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Whats wrong with that recipe?


----------



## berazafi (26/6/06)

I dont think you will get enough bitterness with 20grams of saaz, not sure without putting it threw the program at home, 

also the method doesnt seem correct by cooking do you mean sitting at a temp of between 60-70

The tap water you need to get to around 80-85 degress, i assume you are going add all the rinse (sparge water) to the grain and then remove the grain before boiling


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

it was 20g at start.
10g at Middle
20g at end.

50g all together and yeah between 60-70 aiming for 65.


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

20g at the start will not be enough. I said 20g for bittering in my recipe but it was Northern Brewer which is around 10% alpha (Saaz is usually 3-4 ish).


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Mate when your talking about bittering/IBU's ect I have NFI.

I'll be getting a 100g of Saaz from Gerard at Northern brewing, what would you recommend(he'll be comming back to me as well) for the boil how many g's and at what point?

Cheers.


----------



## T.D. (26/6/06)

The 60min addition is usually considered the bittering addition (even though later additions still contribute a small amount of bitterness). The bulk of your IBUs will come from the 60min addition. 

20g of Saaz at 60mins will not give you enough IBUs. Since Northern Brewer is higher alpha it will give you more bitterness per gram that you add. 

I would use the whole lot of Saaz (100g) in the brew. It would be cheaper if you used a high alpha bittering hop but I actually think an all-saaz pils is worth while from a flavour perspective. Anyway, I reckon if you added 60g at 60mins, 20g at 20mins and 20g at 5mins that would get you pretty close.

I don't have software at hand to tell you exactly what the IBU would be though. Beertools is a good option if you want to tweak recipes for free on the web (you have to sign up though).


----------



## DrewCarey82 (26/6/06)

Might do it that way.

Cheers.


----------



## bindi (30/7/06)

BUMP: Flame suit on and don't care :blink: 
I am about to give away, tip-out or whatever my [what i THOUGHT OVER A YEAR AGO] was good EXTRACT, Partial mash etc etc beer in bottles,it is CRAP compared to the now over 25 AG I have done , even my worst AG is WAY better then ANY TIN Sh$T I have ever done  most I will ditch [tip-out], I have sh$t loads in the shed and I can't drink them any more :blink: good as they where for extract, kits and bits etc, not one or from anyone comes close, I don't care what anyone says I still taste the extract 'taste' even in the [so called] best partials ..Whatever :blink: 
They don't come close to any, and I mean any [And I have sampled the best from everywhere] simple and well made [piss easy] AG,IMOP.
Or is it it?


----------



## tangent (30/7/06)

gotta say bindi, couldn't agree more
i've still got a shed full of extract sh!t and the real beer doesn't last long at all.
i chill and open a bottle every now and again, pour one glass, have a sip, laugh and tip the rest down the sink. 
what was i thinking?
at least now i can walk through any supermarket without checking out the HB section.

on the topic of cheap AG, DON'T buy pre cracked grain from an HBS if you want to make cheap beer. buy a $40 bag of ale malt and some mid range a/a hops. make 5x 5kg of malt brews.
$8 per brew for malt is cheaper than a $14 crappy tin of goop.


----------



## homekegger1 (30/7/06)

Well today I saw my first full AG mash brew,

Thanks Doc and the HBG for letting me see the light....

I am a little into the drinking phase now, and enjoying myself, so please forgive the fat fingers... 

Am really looking forward to creating some good ales like Bretts, which was amazing. Not to mention Doc's tapped beer. 

I can only hope they turn out half as good.

(Do I look Gay??? My wife just yelled out from down stairs to come running to see Davids(Big brother evictee) Boyfriend.) 

Whay is happening to the world

Cheers

HK


----------



## petesbrew (1/8/06)

homekegger1 said:


> Well today I saw my first full AG mash brew,
> 
> Thanks Doc and the HBG for letting me see the light....
> 
> ...



Sure was a great day. It's kinda embarrassing pulling out a K&K beer, (while I still think it's okay), when there's all this fantastic AG beer to be sampled! 

The next day I cooked up my first wetpak, a summer wheat... I'll get to AG eventually!
Pete


----------



## DrewCarey82 (1/8/06)

This w/end I'll polish off the rest of the XMAS swap case, including my own....

Have to say if nothing else all this working with grains comming up with recipes and the brewing itself is much funner then the tip in and stir.

Actually feel like I am creating something rather then making something as easy as cordial!


----------



## Bizarre (1/8/06)

It is a bit more fun DC - I think thats why I wanted to do AG. I did my first full AG about a week and a half ago, so its not ready to drink unfortunately - but I cant wait to taste it. I think the "sense of achievement" you get from working out the recipe to tasting it is well worth the extra time involved - then you can truely say "I made this" 

:beerbang: 

Paul


----------

