# New Method For A.g Brewing - Tea Urn.



## Mitcho89 (15/11/10)

Hi guys, 

I just had a brain wave... I'm about to get in and try the BIAB method for making my first batch of all-grain. I'm rather strict when it comes to temperature control so I thought about using my fridgemate Mashmaster in combination with a coffee/tea dispensing urn. I'd just stick a collinder in the urn to keep the grain bag off the element but it would be nice to just set into the Fridgemate '66C' or '75C'. It would just take out the 'human error' variable. All I'd have to is just set my timer for my alarm for the different stages of the brew and that's it. 

Just a thought


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## bum (15/11/10)

Uh...that research has already been done for you, mate. Pretty popular BIAB device.

I understand it is recommended that you still do the mash with the element turned off. Something to do with the heat not being even and having an unreliable mash temp? Some sciencey brewer will be along with the exact reasons, I imagine.

NOTE: I am not arguing against the concept of a direct fired mash - only that I've read that this gear in this context is not the best application of the process.


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## Mitcho89 (15/11/10)

Well there you go. Good minds think alike  with that said, sorry to bring up something old. I had a look and I didn't see much around for it at all.


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## benno1973 (15/11/10)

There's a good thread here by BribieG. He talks about raising the bag clear of the urn when applying heat to allow you to stir and distribute the heat evenly. Having said that, the discussion is more along the lines of maintaining a single mash temp, rather than doing step mashes, but I guess the same sort of principle could be applied. 

I can't see that your suggestion would be too much different to a direct fired tun. You just need a good method to mix the water into the grain when heating.


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## argon (15/11/10)

Mitcho89 said:


> sorry to bring up something old. I had a look and I didn't see much around for it at all.




No problem mate... here's a good tutorial to have a read of for more info for Using An Urn For Brew In A Bag by a very experienced and well awarded brewer.
:icon_cheers:

edit: well beaten


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## Mitcho89 (15/11/10)

Wow that's a good setup. Urns of that size are by no means cheap so I think I'll stick to BIAB with a bloody big cook pot. With BIAB, can you sparge it by letting the temperature go from 66 up to 75 after the initial 90min to extract everything? Sorry I'm still working in my head the right way to do it before I get in and do it. 

Thanks and kind regards.


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## argon (15/11/10)

Mitcho89 said:


> Wow that's a good setup. Urns of that size are by no means cheap so I think I'll stick to BIAB with a bloody big cook pot. With BIAB, can you sparge it by letting the temperature go from 66 up to 75 after the initial 90min to extract everything? Sorry I'm still working in my head the right way to do it before I get in and do it.
> 
> Thanks and kind regards.




What you've described here is a mashout and is a good simple method for extracting a little bit more out of the grain. 

Pull the bag out away from the element, heat it up to 75-76C drop the bag in and give it a big stir, check temp again to make sure yo're at 75-76. Cover and sit for 10mins.

If you want to sparge do it in another bucket and dunk the bag in it. There are other methods too. Have a read of A Guide to Mini-BIAB for doing some overgravity full batch brewing too... plenty of good info in there.

Edit: spl mahout now mashout


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## pk.sax (15/11/10)

sparging is literally rinsing Mitch. With hot water.

What I did yesterday to do it was, took the bag out and put it into a smaller pot. Opened the bag up on the top and poured 80C water over it (no insulation at this point, its gonna lose heat). Basically, dunked it a few times like a giant teabag in the pot to get the juice flowing, then closed the bag and squeezed as much as possible out. 3 times over (1.5 litres to 3 Kg of grain) and I ended up extracting way more than I intended. Tasted the grain after and it was not sweet so guesstimating, it worked.

edit: Argon beat me to it.


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## beerdrinkingbob (15/11/10)

Mitcho89 said:


> Wow that's a good setup. Urns of that size are by no means cheap so I think I'll stick to BIAB with a bloody big cook pot. With BIAB, can you sparge it by letting the temperature go from 66 up to 75 after the initial 90min to extract everything? Sorry I'm still working in my head the right way to do it before I get in and do it.
> 
> Thanks and kind regards.



Hey Mitch,

Are you talking about raising the temp of the mash tun or another vessel?. 

If it's your mash tun you would be actually doing what they call a mash out not a sparge. A sparge is where you add additional water normally around 75 to 78 to extract more sugar from the grain that weren't recovered from your first runnings or for BIAB first squeeze of the bag :beerbang: 

There are a lot of detailed discussion around mash out and sparging, I'll see if i can find a couple of links for you.

Hope that helps and hopefully and i was on the right track.

Bob


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## beerdrinkingbob (15/11/10)

to slow as always!! hope you got you info :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G (15/11/10)

I regularly do step mashes and a mashout with an urn and BIAB. A skyhook helps, just raise and heat, then lower and pump the mash to distribute the heat. I haven't kept good records, unfortunately, but what I should (and will) do is to accurately measure how much time it takes a 2400 w urn to raise the temp in degrees per minute and I'll publish a table of schedules for the popular mash regimes such as simple mash out, hochkurz mash etc etc  

To the OP, if you already have big pots, burners etc then an urn can be a big additional outlay. However for around $250 if you are starting out from scratch then it's a good option to get a 'turnkey' brewery out of the box with only a bag required. 

As far as maintaining a constant mash temp goes, then I find that just some heavy lagging (sleeping bag, quilt etc) keeps the temp within a degree and a half, but a halfway raise, heat and stir isn't hard if you are a stickler for constant temp.


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## argon (15/11/10)

BribieG said:


> I regularly do step mashes and a mashout with an urn and BIAB. A skyhook helps, just raise and heat, then lower and pump the mash to distribute the heat. I haven't kept good records, unfortunately, but what I should (and will) do is to accurately measure how much time it takes a 2400 w urn to raise the temp in degrees per minute and I'll publish a table of schedules for the popular mash regimes such as simple mash out, hochkurz mash etc etc
> 
> To the OP, if you already have big pots, burners etc then an urn can be a big additional outlay. However for around $250 if you are starting out from scratch then it's a good option to get a 'turnkey' brewery out of the box with only a bag required.
> 
> As far as maintaining a constant mash temp goes, then I find that just some heavy lagging (*sleeping bag, quilt etc*) keeps the temp within a degree and a half, but a halfway raise, heat and stir isn't hard if you are a stickler for constant temp.




C'mon Bribie... you really should suggest a couple of second hand ski jackets are pretty good for lagging too :lol:


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## Silo Ted (15/11/10)

argon said:


> What you've described here is *a mahout *



An elephant jockey ? 

I am also set up with an urn, but I ramp the temp up o mashout with the grain still in the water, but I stir constantly.


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## Bribie G (15/11/10)

I'm tempted to possibly sacrifice a square of voile I found in a cupboard the other week and just do a mash with it clothespegged to the top of the urn and try a mashout by heating and stirring and see if it actually does melt the bag. Might be a time saver. The other plan is to try a stepped mash by progressive boiling liquor additions as I have a second urn now, starting thick and work up to full volume. Always something interesting going on with BIAB


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## pk.sax (15/11/10)

BribieG said:


> I'm tempted to possibly sacrifice a square of voile I found in a cupboard the other week and just do a mash with it clothespegged to the top of the urn and try a mashout by heating and stirring and see if it actually does melt the bag. Might be a time saver. The other plan is to try a stepped mash by progressive boiling liquor additions as I have a second urn now, starting thick and work up to full volume. Always something interesting going on with BIAB



What! You are thinking of using the second urn as a HLT! Shame on you bribie, whats next, transfer mashed wort back to the second urn for a boil, recirculation over the bag?! a 2v brewery 

lol, btw, cotton voile ftw! direct stove burner fired to (tried to mash out), stirred etc.. no bag bursts or burnt bag yet in two tries


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## Silo Ted (15/11/10)

a cake rack over the element avoids any burns. done it dozens of times and still using the same bag, no indication of burning/melting.


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## argon (15/11/10)

FWIW, I always used a cake rack on the bottom of the mash tun with the bag sitting on it and direct fired with a rambo burner. Never lifted the bag, but always stirred when applying heat. The swiss voile bag is in mint condition after 20+ brews.


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## Mitcho89 (15/11/10)

Right I think I'm getting it now. As far as extracting/rinsing goes, what's the difference between a mash out and a sparge? Don't both extract as much as possible?


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## zebba (15/11/10)

Mitcho89 said:


> Right I think I'm getting it now. As far as extracting/rinsing goes, what's the difference between a mash out and a sparge? Don't both extract as much as possible?


Mash out is raising the temperature of the mash to make it more runny so the fluid that is in there drains out easier. (amongst other things).

Sparge is running (see note) fresh water through the mash after you've drained off the liquid that was in there during the mash. This extracts more sugar from the grain.

Look at it this way - you have a grain, and it has sugar in it. You get some water (i.e. the mash) and sugar from the grain will leech out into the water until there is the same concentration of sugar in the water as is left in the grain. Drain that water away and add fesh water, and you'll get more sugar out - it won't be as strong as the first lot of water, but there.

If you are doing a "full volume" BIAB, then there isn't much point in doing a sparge - you may get a little more efficiency, but it probably isn't worth the time effort. If you have limited gear and can't do a full-volume BIAB mash, then sparging will let you do a larger batch size than you could doing the more traditional no-sparge BIAB

Note: just rinsing the grain under a tap won't get much out - you need to give it some time so the sugar leeches out of the grain into the water.

Double note: this is a very simplistic explanation. There is obviously more. The important point is that a mash out and a sparge are two VERY different things.


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## matr (15/11/10)

Silo Ted said:


> a cake rack over the element avoids any burns. done it dozens of times and still using the same bag, no indication of burning/melting.



Or make yourself one of these. SS won't burn - ever!


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## simco999 (16/11/10)

I use an urn for BIAB - I get the mash temp up to about 67c then switch the power off. Mash for 45 mins with a quilt round it - stir half way and mash for another 45 mins. I generally lose about 3 degrees using this method. Then I sparge with 75c water. Luckily I have access to another urn to heat the sparge.







Check out my ingenious skyhook system. Handy for giving the bag a good squeeze.


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## bcp (16/11/10)

matr said:


> Or make yourself one of these. SS won't burn - ever!


Hang on... This is your stainless steel bag? Have you done a post on this?
1. Pros & cons? (probably tiny tiny bit harder to clean).
2. Where do you get the stainless steel stuff, how much did it set you back, and how do you make it?


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## rendo (16/11/10)

PLEASE DO  U know I love your experiments

I have been thinking of this method too. I was going to use bulldog clips around the top of the urn to hold the bag in.

Anyhow, if I get around to it before you then I will post it, otherwise, lert us know how it goes.

Rendo



BribieG said:


> I'm tempted to possibly sacrifice a square of voile I found in a cupboard the other week and just do a mash with it clothespegged to the top of the urn and try a mashout by heating and stirring and see if it actually does melt the bag. Might be a time saver. The other plan is to try a stepped mash by progressive boiling liquor additions as I have a second urn now, starting thick and work up to full volume. Always something interesting going on with BIAB


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## Silo Ted (16/11/10)

matr said:


> Or make yourself one of these. SS won't burn - ever!



Nice one, glad to see you got this going. 




bcp said:


> Hang on... This is your stainless steel bag? Have you done a post on this?



OMG (as the internet kids say) a brewer did something without making a thread on it first :lol: 

matr, you should make a thread on it though. As you know from our few PM's, I for one have an interest in this project. So get the ball rolling will ya !


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## Isuxius (16/11/10)

rendo said:


> I have been thinking of this method too. I was going to use bulldog clips around the top of the urn to hold the bag in.



I do this. 4 Bulldog clips around the top to hold the bag. Just need to fold the inside uh "wire bits" down to allow the lid on when mashing.
Then when finished just tie the opposite ends together and lift, twist and squeeze 

Although I am not exactly an expert in BIAB. I am currently having issues with stuck ferments at 1020 (using US05). Going to try Nottingham to see if it's my Digital Thermometer (too hot mash) or US05 being a bitch.


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## black_labb (17/11/10)

Isuxius said:


> Although I am not exactly an expert in BIAB. I am currently having issues with stuck ferments at 1020 (using US05). Going to try Nottingham to see if it's my Digital Thermometer (too hot mash) or US05 being a bitch.




Why not compare the thermometer to antother thermometer at mashing temps. i'm sure your local homebrew shop would be happy to help you out by letting you compare it to a thermometer of theirs if you dont have access to one otherwise.

Experimenting with yeasts is always a good thing to do, but using a different yeast to check if your thermometer is out isnt a very accurate experiment.


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## mh971 (17/11/10)

I have been thinking of doing a similar thing but keeping the voile and using a large strainer basket to allow for easy lifting. These things are the innards of large water line strainers available up to about 4-500mm diam. you could fit handle, lift into another vessel, sparge, part lift and squeeze with a home made flat paddle from above, plus easy to clean.


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## Isuxius (17/11/10)

black_labb said:


> Why not compare the thermometer to antother thermometer at mashing temps. i'm sure your local homebrew shop would be happy to help you out by letting you compare it to a thermometer of theirs if you dont have access to one otherwise.
> 
> Experimenting with yeasts is always a good thing to do, but using a different yeast to check if your thermometer is out isnt a very accurate experiment.



Yeah I know but going to my lhbs requires jumping on a plane for 3 hours, driving for 2 days, or ordering online and waiting 2-3 weeks for "overnight" mail. Sometimes I think that the mail comes by camels 
The distance also means that the better yeasts don't survive the trip so it dried only.

The beers don't turn out bad, just a little sweet but I no (slow)-chill so the aroma hops tend to give a little more bitterness than they should and it generally balances out.


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## black_labb (17/11/10)

Isuxius said:


> Yeah I know but going to my lhbs requires jumping on a plane for 3 hours, driving for 2 days, or ordering online and waiting 2-3 weeks for "overnight" mail. Sometimes I think that the mail comes by camels
> The distance also means that the better yeasts don't survive the trip so it dried only.
> 
> The beers don't turn out bad, just a little sweet but I no (slow)-chill so the aroma hops tend to give a little more bitterness than they should and it generally balances out.




thats fair enough.

Have you tried building up a starter with the us05? that should end up with enough yeast to attenuate properly. S04 may suffer similarly if its being handled harshly in the mail or wherever.


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## Aus_Rider_22 (17/11/10)

matr said:


> Or make yourself one of these. SS won't burn - ever!



Bump for matr. I am very interested in learning more about this. I realise it wouldn't be overly cheap to go out and by the fine mesh stainless but I am interested. Please go on.


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## Isuxius (17/11/10)

black_labb said:


> Have you tried building up a starter with the us05? that should end up with enough yeast to attenuate properly. S04 may suffer similarly if its being handled harshly in the mail or wherever.



Nope but that's the next step. 

Room and time is limited at the moment due to a bigger garage brewshed in construction but the new year should see some fine tuning :icon_cheers:


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## garethjones (18/4/11)

Nice ideas are coming mates...

cool...


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