# Style Of The Week 7/3/07 - Russian Imperial Stout



## Stuster (7/3/07)

So, with the weather turning a bit cooler (here in Sydney at least), I thought it was time to look at some beers for the winter. In fact, it might be too late for this one, but anyway, this week it's a huge beer, Russian Imperial Stout.

This English style was brewed for export to (surprise, surprise) Russia, as well as the Baltic states. Some info on the style at the links below.

Brewing Network show on RIS
Article on brewing big beers
All about beer article on RIS

So what are your experiences with this style? Grains? Hops? Which yeast to use? Tips for fermenting such a big beer? How long to mature? Can this style be done by partial mashers? Kit based brewers? Any commercial RISs available here?

Tell us all you know about this style. :chug: 

BJCP style 13F



> 13F. Russian Imperial Stout
> 
> Aroma: Rich and complex, with variable amounts of roasted grains, maltiness, fruity esters, hops, and alcohol. The roasted malt character can take on coffee, dark chocolate, or slightly burnt tones and can be light to moderately strong. The malt aroma can be subtle to rich and barleywine-like, depending on the gravity and grain bill. May optionally show a slight specialty malt character (e.g., caramel), but this should only add complexity and not dominate. Fruity esters may be low to moderately strong, and may take on a complex, dark fruit (e.g., plums, prunes, raisins) character. Hop aroma can be very low to quite aggressive, and may contain any hop variety. An alcohol character may be present, but shouldn't be sharp, hot or solventy. Aged versions may have a slight vinous or port-like quality, but shouldn't be sour. No diacetyl. The balance can vary with any of the aroma elements taking center stage. Not all possible aromas described need be present; many interpretations are possible. Aging affects the intensity, balance and smoothness of aromatics.
> 
> ...


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## WildebeestAttack (7/3/07)

Here's my one experience of brewing a RIS, and it a sad tale.

It started out a monster - OG 1.110. (boiled down to 25L from 35L). 

From there thing went wrong. The yeast (Wyeast 1084) decided to drop out 1.050. I had 4L of starter, all very lively but it still happened. The brew was temp controlled at 20C, and never had any sudden temp spikes. 

Tried everything to get it going again, tried added some 1028. Nothing. Some US-56. Still nothing. Even tried adding some Czech Pils yeast I had started and nothing again. When I was really desperate I grabbed some yeast from a can of goo and chucked that in. (I know none of those yeast are suitable for big beers, they are just what I had lying around - so maybe that was a problem).

You couldn't drink it, tasted so sweet it made you feel sick. I ended up blending it with 40L of a dry mild ale I had, but it is still a bit too sweet. A dessert beer was probably the best description. Still others liked it. Certainly had a lot of body for a dark ale.

Next time I'm looking to use Wyeast's distillers yeast.


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## Kai (7/3/07)

I brewed a partial RIS with 1318 London ale III around a year and a half ago. I don't have a hope of remembering the grist right now but it was probably around 1.5kg LME, 300g DME, a little sugar and 5kg of grain. Starting gravity was around 1.090 and it came down to the mid-high teens readily enough. I have one stubby left :drink:

I don't really think you need a specialised yeast for these big beers. Last big beer I brewed was a barleywine (OG 1.100) that fermented right out with nothing less than the coopers bottle yeast.


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## Malnourished (7/3/07)

This is probably one of the few styles I've brewed enough to have something of value to say, so here are my thoughts:

Malt:
- I am of the opinion that crystal malt (particularly) and Munich-type malts have no place in an imperial stout. With a gravity near 1.1 you're going to get plenty of malt flavour and sweetness anyway. These guys just make it even sweeter and flabbier.
- Specialty malts that give a 'drying' effect are great. Amber and brown malts particularly, at levels you would otherwise never even consider.
- Load up on roasted barley. I reckon you need a higher % of RB in an imperial than a dry stout, so that's usually >1kg in a batch. Add significantly smaller amounts of choc and/or roast malt for "malt complexity."
- Base malt isn't a huge concern, but obviously Maris Otter is very good. Mash real low because all the roasted malts/grains usually give a higher FG (they do for me, at least.) I usually aim for about 1.100 as an OG.

Hops:
- My preference is to avoid US varieties because I don't really like the pine/coffee clash of flavours, but other than that anything goes. I quite like PoR actually. I will never brew another imperial with less than 100 calculated IBUs either.
- I don't bother with hop flavour or aroma any more. I think it tends to clash with the dark malt/grain flavours, plus I like to age them for years anyway by which time most of the hop character is gone anyway.

Yeast:
- I've had good results with Wyeast 1056 and 1084, and S-04 and US-56. 
- The only yeast I wouldn't recommend for this style is Wyeast 1028. It's always thrown lots of higher alcohols and weird artificial cherry esters in imperial stouts for me. 

Water:
- Make sure you know what you're doing with your water. The huge amounts of roasted barley required will have quite a significant lowering effect on mash pH if you've got soft water. 

Age:
- I usually give them a month in primary and three to six in secondary, then bottle with fresh yeast (just a pack of US-56 or dry champagne yeast usually.)
- These beers last for years. I always make sure to bottle in mostly small bottles and stash lots away for a few years down the track. One of the best HBs I've made was an imperial stout made with a kit, steeped grains and extra hops (as a 5L batch) - it was undrinkable for several years, but after about 4 years it was amazing. This style is absolutely the best style of beer to age. They can go for decades.


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## Stuster (7/3/07)

That's great info, Mal. :super: 

Makes brewing one sound very tempting indeed. :beerbang:


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## 0M39A (7/3/07)

I've been wanting to try an imperial stout for a long time now, but i've had to go back to only doing kit and kilos again, as i've moved back to a college for uni and have no access to a kitchen. Some mates who live close by are pretty interested in brewing though, especially after tasting some of my latest extract brews... might have to start brewing down there.


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## brendanos (20/3/07)

Kits can actually work very well for this style, and more often than most of us would like to believe, a RIS brewed with 3 cans of stout will take out champion beer in the category at a competition, or at least score very highly.

I used wyeast m-strain (distillers) for a RIS i brewed late last year, and ended up with possibly too much attenuation, leaving the beer a little less chewy than might be desirable.

Thanks for all that Mal, between your post and the Jamil BN show, you've probably convinced me to bump a second shot up the queue a little.


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## crozdog (21/3/07)

brendanos said:


> I used wyeast m-strain (distillers) for a RIS i brewed late last year,



Where did you buy this yeast? Does anyone in Sydney have a culture of this that they would be willing to share?

Can you provide any other info about your RIS eg the grain bill?

beers

Crozdog


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## DJR (21/3/07)

crozdog said:


> Where did you buy this yeast? Does anyone in Sydney have a culture of this that they would be willing to share?
> 
> Can you provide any other info about your RIS eg the grain bill?
> 
> ...



Wyeast 4366 M-Strain was a VSS a while back

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=13247

I think that Fermentis makes a dried version of it as well - i remember MHB saying he had some?


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## brendanos (21/3/07)

crozdog said:


> Where did you buy this yeast? Does anyone in Sydney have a culture of this that they would be willing to share?
> 
> Can you provide any other info about your RIS eg the grain bill?
> 
> ...




I made a thread about it here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=13247&hl=

The yeast I found at G&G (site sponsor) in Victoria. As DJR said it was a VSS, though quite cheap as it was 6 months old (it seems noone was as enthusiastic as I was when I found it!) Grain bill is on there, though I'd be more inclined to go by Malnourished or Jamil's recommendations. Also, I found some good recipes in previous years Vicbrew results.


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## Stuster (14/6/07)

So I'm just planning on doing an RIS and was hoping for some feedback on this recipe. It'll probably end up being a parti-gyle recipe, so getting to this sort of gravity should be fine. I'm wanting to get a big, thick stout out of this, something to keep for a year or two. Something that resembles engine oil, but that should taste a touch different.

Is there enough/too much/just right dark malts in there? Balance ok?
I know Malnourished said no crystal, but the esteemed Jamil said crystal so I've compromised by putting a little in there. Is it a mistake?
Should I put a little hop flavour or hop aroma in there?
Will the German Ale yeast give enough attenuation? Would something with more ester production be better?

Thanks in advance.  

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Russian Imperial Stout

Batch Size: 30.00 L 
Boil Size: 40.29 L
Estimated OG: 1.100 SG
Estimated Color: 122.3 EBC
Estimated IBU: 87.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
11.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.Grain 85.3 % 
0.75 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (1398.7 EBC) Grain 5.8 % 
0.35 kg Chocolate Wheat (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) Grain 2.7 % 
0.25 kg Brown Malt (200.0 EBC) Grain 1.9 % 
0.20 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 1.6 % 
0.20 kg Crystal malt (145.0 EBC) Grain 1.6 % 
0.15 kg Pale Chocolate (500.0 EBC) Grain 1.2 % 
130.00 gm Target [11.00%] (60 min) Hops 87.7 IBU 
1 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) Yeast-Ale


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## neonmeate (14/6/07)

i reckon that will be good but how does that yeast go with gravities like that?

after brewing stout 19th century style recently i would say 250g of brown malt won't make a lot of difference. try 2.5 kg!

the next impstout i'm brewing is going to be the 1856 barclay perkins stout recipe that mal-no-shed recently won an international brewing comp with (against a stellar field):
http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/beerale.htm#barclaygrist
1107 OG, 64% pale, 11% amber malt 22% brown 3% RB and something silly like 400g of EKG for bittering...
now that was a beer. but could be even better with some brett anomalus.!


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## Ross (14/6/07)

neonmeate said:


> i reckon that will be good but how does that yeast go with gravities like that?
> 
> after brewing stout 19th century style recently i would say 250g of brown malt won't make a lot of difference. try 2.5 kg!
> 
> ...



Great link there neonmate - fascinating read.  

cheers Ross


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## neonmeate (14/6/07)

yes malnourished and i actually brewed up two each of these beers and entered them in this guy's competition - all very tasty beers, three of them were 100+ IBUs (even the 1063 OG porter!). that 1856 stout was bloody enormous. it's funny, ive only ever had extremely hoppy beers with high AA hops before (Stone beers and other American OTT stuff) - 100+ IBUs of low-AA hops is much tastier than 100+IBUs of high alpha hops. quite different - extremely bitter but not that sort of metallic, boot-on-the-throat-while-being-stabbed-with-a-bayonet sort of bitterness.


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## Stuster (14/6/07)

Great info there, monkeyman. I've looked at that before, but never really thought of making one of those for some stupid reason. I'll have to rethink using that much brown malt. It's certainly tempting. Amber as well is a grain I've been enjoying in my beers, but those percentages are a bit scary. Food for thought for sure. :super: 

Congratulations to malnourished on the win. :beerbang: Now which beers did you choose. :unsure:


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## Darren (14/6/07)

Bit of crystal in there stuster isn't going to make a rats arse in differnce. Not sure about the 2.5kg of brown malt though. 

Good two hour boil will increase the "maltiness" though so long as you dont burn it.

cheers

darren


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## Tony (14/6/07)

I have a heap of brown malt on hand. I bought it a while back to brew an authentic 1800's style porter. 60% pale malt, 20% brown, 20% amber and a bit of black malt.

Im still thinking of doing it but in a smaller volume than the usual 50 liters i do.

I guess a RIS with a heap of brown malt could be interesting.

maybe a big mash and no sparge, check gravity and calculate boil off and hops for a 10 to 15 liter batch to see what its like.

cheers


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## bugwan (15/6/07)

I love reading some of these grain/hop bills. 130g of 11%AA Target!

I wouldn't fit some of these bills in my 36Ltr esky for starters, I'd have to do at least 4 batch sparges to get 30 litres in the kettle too.

This style really interests me, and is a great beer to have in the vault. Certainly a special occasion drop. When I finally settle in one place (looking for our fourth rental in 5 years now), I'll start putting down these beasts. Until then, I'll enjoy reading about it.


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## warrenlw63 (15/6/07)

Hey Bugwan

Not necessarily true. Some of the better Imperials I've tasted were the ones that weren't OTT. An OG of around 1.080-1.085 is a good way to get aquainted. Some of the bigger ones I've tried have suffered from inherent yeast/fermentation problems and the "vegemite" bite. :blink: 

I reckon with a 36 litre mash-tun you'd have no worries. If you wish to go bigger just augment with some malt extract.  

Yum Target... Me fave bittering hop. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## Malnourished (15/6/07)

neonmeate said:


> (against a stellar field)


LOL, for the record, the two of us were the only entrants. So neonmeate came _dead last_. But at least I'm an international award-winning brewer now!

As for the recipe, brew it as is and see what you reckon. For my tastes I think it would be a little too sweet - especially after the roast and bitterness fades with aging. 

I agree that 250g brown malt will go unnoticed. Something in the vicinity of 5-10% would be a good start. Use 2.5kg and you'd want to start thinking about reducing the RB (but it'll taste fantastic!)

It's not a huge amount of crystal, so it shouldn't make it too flabby. I think you could seriously consider increasing all of your roast malts though. You're at less than 10% - I think with a beer at the top end of the gravity range you could easily go to 15% or quite a bit more. I'd probably chuck in ~300g of black malt.

But my experience seems contrary to just about every (non-historical) imperial stout recipe I've seen, so take this with a grain of salt. For instance I think bottled Durham Temptation is a perfect example of a disgustingly sweet IS, but others seem to really like it.

And Warren, I'm sure there's a recipe in one of the Vicbrew booklets where the judges' comments include something along the lines of "lacks vegemite flavour".


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## warrenlw63 (15/6/07)

Hahaha!! Maybe Mal. :lol: 

It always seemed to be the style that showed yeast bite to the max though. I still stand by the fact I reckon the ones on the smaller end of the scale 1.080(ish) were always nicer. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## brettprevans (15/6/07)

If someone has already posted this forgive me.

Grain and Grape has a decent amount of info on RIS (link). They have versions for K&K, Extract and AG.

I like the sound of all of them and am planning on doing the K&K and Extract soon. If nothing else if probably provides a good basis on which HBs can use to make thier own personal tweaks.


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## Stuster (15/6/07)

Tut, tut, Mr Riggers. I'm surprised that you didn't at the very least reference that the majority of your article was taken verbatim from this Roger Protz article. Using that to write the article is fine in my book, but if you're just going to copy and paste, at least you should say where you got it from rather than suggesting it's your own writing.

You be the judge. From Riggers' article.



> Later commercial examples were bottle fermented with live yeast and improved with age. It was 10 percent alcohol by volume and was brewed from pale, amber and black malts with a touch of Pilsner malt. An enormous amount of Target hops, around 24 pounds per barrel, were used. Thats four times the hop rate of a conventional beer. It had an aroma of fresh leather and liquorice, with bitter chocolate in the mouth, and an intense finish packed with bitter dark fruit and hops. There was an oily, tarry note, - the hallmark of the style.



And from the Protz article. :lol: 



> It will be of little comfort if I tell you what a truly remarkable beer this was. As it was bottle-fermented with live yeast, it improved with age. It was 10 percent alcohol by volume and was brewed from pale, amber and black malts with a touch of Pilsner malt. It is thought that pilsner malt was used from the 19th century--perhaps some European malt came back in the vessels that supplied the Baltic with beer. An enormous amount of Target hops, around 24 pounds per barrel, were used. Thats four times the hop rate of a conventional beer. It had an aroma of fresh leather and licorice, with bitter chocolate in the mouth, and an intense finish packed with bitter dark fruit and hops. There was an oily, tarry note, the hallmark of the style.


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## warrenlw63 (15/6/07)

Stuster said:


> Tut, tut, Mr Riggers. I'm surprised that you didn't at the very least reference that the majority of your article was taken verbatim from this Roger Protz article. Using that to write the article is fine in my book, but if you're just going to copy and paste, at least you should say where you got it from rather than suggesting it's your own writing.
> 
> You be the judge. From Riggers' article.
> 
> ...



Stuster

I've tasted a few of Riggers' Imperials... I can quite definitely say he knows his stuff.  

Probably best Imperials I've tried. 

I'd just stick with his recipe judgement. Article is probably just a primer to get people on the right track when making one for the first time.

Warren -


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## Stuster (15/6/07)

I'm sure he knows his recipes, but it appears he knows (or cares) little about copyright. :angry:


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## warrenlw63 (15/6/07)

Probably up to Protz to bang on his door not you Stuster. :lol: 

Only looks similar in the history section. Brewing notes are most likely original. 

Like most things I guess if it doesn't please you don't read it. Grain and Grape's phone number is there. Perhaps you could ring them and let them know of the oversight.  

Warren -


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## neonmeate (15/6/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Like most things I guess if it doesn't please you don't read it.



it's not a matter of like or dislike? a matter of intellectual property.


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## Darren (15/6/07)

I agree with Warren, that bigger is not necessarily better.

Any bigger than 1.080-1.090 and you will never get it to carb in a bottle (if you wish to)

cheers

Darren


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## warrenlw63 (15/6/07)

Yeah, in part I agree. OTOH it's the internet. You'd go spare trying to catch out every bit of plagiarism going around. :blink: 

I guess including footnotes and references would be a good thing. OTOH I wouldn't publicly hammer the perpetrator. Particularly when it involves a site sponsor. I would have notified them quietly.

Plus if it's not one's own intellectual property it merely makes you a sweatshop lawyer.  

Warren -


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## Stuster (15/6/07)

Guess you're right, Warren. Just a bit shocked at the extensive copying he'd done. I've really liked his articles before, and I'm sure he's a good brewer, but that is pretty poor.

Stuart, Stuart and Stuart (Non)solicitors
Want unqualified, unconvincing legal advice for free. See us and we'll give you advice for nothing.


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## Malnourished (15/6/07)

Darren said:


> Any bigger than 1.080-1.090 and you will never get it to carb in a bottle (if you wish to)


What makes you say that? I've never had that problem, though I usually repitch yeast at bottling after prolonged secondaries these days.


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## AndrewQLD (27/3/09)

Bottled an RIS 4 weeks ago today and decided to open one up and see if it was carbing.
Only the faintests of phsssts and on pouring in a glass no carbonation at all.

Anyone with any experience with this style care to comment on my chances of this carbing up over the next six months or so?
S.G 1.105 F.G 1.024
bottled and primed with 3/4 tsp sugar.
Any advice would be appreciated.

Here's the particulars.

Recipe: Russian Imperial Stout
Brewer: Andrew Clark
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Imperial Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 15.00 L 
Boil Size: 22.32 L
Estimated OG: 1.099 SG
Estimated Color: 111.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 99.9 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 57.00 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.75 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (5Grain 74.19 % 
0.50 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (2.4 EBC) Grain 6.45 % 
0.45 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (550.0 EBC) Grain 5.81 % 
0.30 kg Crystal Dark Bairds (260.0 EBC) Grain 3.87 % 
0.25 kg Roasted Barley (Thomas Fawcett) (1199.7 EBGrain 3.23 % 
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent pellet [5.10 %] (Dry Hops - 
50.00 gm Northern Brewer [7.60 %] (60 min) Hops 50.3 IBU 
40.00 gm Northern Brewer [7.60 %] (30 min) Hops 30.9 IBU 
14.00 gm Northern Brewer [7.60 %] (15 min) Hops 7.0 IBU 
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent pellet [5.10 %] (15 mHops 8.4 IBU 
40.00 gm Goldings, East Kent pellet [5.10 %] (3 miHops 3.4 IBU 
0.50 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
0.50 kg Brown Sugar, Dark (99.0 EBC) Sugar 6.45 % 
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Batch Sparge light body
Total Grain Weight: 7.25 kg
----------------------------
Batch Sparge light body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
90 min Mash In Add 29.58 L of water at 70.9 C 65.0 C 
10 min mash out Heat to 78.0 C over 2 min 78.0 C


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## Peter Wadey (27/3/09)

Hi Andrew,
I'd expect so, but I'm going to cellar mine for a year before sampling. Bottled just last weekend.
Bit more aggressive with the Roast Barley at 8%. Quite sharp. Maybe make that 2 yrs. 

Rgds,
Pete


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## reviled (29/3/09)

Bump B) 

I tried an RIS from a mate which was absolutely devine! Finished at about 1030 and I reckon any lower and it would almost lose the character it had, it sort of melted in the mouth like a nice bar of chocolate... :icon_drool2: Yum!

Also with this style I dont reckon you want much carbonation at all, would be easy enough to keg it, lightly carb then bottle from the keg if youre worried about the poor yeasties not being able to do the job for you...


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## newguy (29/3/09)

AndrewQLD said:


> Anyone with any experience with this style care to comment on my chances of this carbing up over the next six months or so?
> S.G 1.105 F.G 1.024



With that OG, it's hit & miss whether it will carb up appreciably. That very high OG will inhibit the yeast. I have a divine RIS in the bottle now (a little over a year old) that started @ 1.090 and I forget where it finished. I primed with some DME & bottled and it carbed up just fine. Before that I brewed a 1.107 BW and the damn thing never did carbonate at all. Flat as a pan of piss. I had to pour it all out.

Now I always force carbonate the high gravity beers that I brew to put away for a long time (bottle - lower gravity beers I keg). I rack to a keg, chill, force carbonate, then bottle from the keg. I don't have problems with things not carbing anymore.

One thing you can try is to put the bottles into an esky with an aquarium heater set to ~30C. Put enough water in that the bottles are immersed but their caps aren't. Leave them for 3-4 days then try a bottle to see if the carbonation has improved. Leave them longer if need be. Also be sure to swirl the yeast into suspension before doing this.


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## AndrewQLD (29/3/09)

Thanks for the replies guys.
I'll take your advice newguy and try the immersion trick, might help to kick start them, I'll leave for another month and check then. If they haven't carbed any more I might try cracking the bottles and dropping a few grains of chamagne yeast or some other high gravity yeast in and resealing.

Andrew


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## pmolou (29/3/09)

cant wait to make an imperial stout had the red hill RIS last year :icon_drool2: sooo good


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## Jesse (22/6/09)

My RIS started at 1113 and now has stalled at 1042 for the past week, It was pitched onto a whole yeast cake and went off with a bang got down to 1042 in a week and has sat there ever since. Nottingham was used.

Should I use a champange yeast to get it started or bottle with extra yeast. I am planning on having it in secondary for another 3 weeks


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## Stuster (22/6/09)

The RIS I did with crozdog a couple of years back started at 1095 and stalled at 1030, also on a yeast cake to start. Chucked more ale yeast at it but to no avail. Ended up bottling it after only a few weeks in secondary and found ourselves with bottle bombs after a while. Not too pretty. I'd definitely recommend leaving it in secondary for much longer than 3 weeks. Especially at this time of year if you don't have temp control. Since you're probably going to want to age this for a while, I'd suggest you leave it in secondary for as long as you can.


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## Quintrex (22/6/09)

Stuster said:


> The RIS I did with crozdog a couple of years back started at 1095 and stalled at 1030, also on a yeast cake to start. Chucked more ale yeast at it but to no avail. Ended up bottling it after only a few weeks in secondary and found ourselves with bottle bombs after a while. Not too pretty. I'd definitely recommend leaving it in secondary for much longer than 3 weeks. Especially at this time of year if you don't have temp control. Since you're probably going to want to age this for a while, I'd suggest you leave it in secondary for as long as you can.



Depends how much yeast/autolysis character you want. I left some on the yeastcake and it starts to pick up some hella vegemite character. 
If you want to limit this character I'd probably pitch some champagne yeast, if it doesn't budge after a week, then it's probably more a problem with your mash temp or something. So you could bottle it hoping that the carbonation will 'lift' the beer from being so heavy.
maybe other more experienced high grav guys could offer other options.

Q


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## Stuster (22/6/09)

Quintrex said:


> Depends how much yeast/autolysis character you want. I left some on the yeastcake and it starts to pick up some hella vegemite character.



In secondary? After how long? I've never had an issue with autolysis in big beers (though I have tasted it in others beers).

I've done a number of big beers but the only one I had any issues getting down in gravity was this RIS - possibly due to the high percentage of dark malts.


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## AndrewQLD (22/6/09)

Quintrex said:


> Depends how much yeast/autolysis character you want. I left some on the yeastcake and it starts to pick up some hella vegemite character.
> If you want to limit this character I'd probably pitch some champagne yeast, if it doesn't budge after a week, then it's probably more a problem with your mash temp or something. So you could bottle it hoping that the carbonation will 'lift' the beer from being so heavy.
> maybe other more experienced high grav guys could offer other options.
> 
> Q




Mine dropped from 1.105 down to 1.024, took 2 + months in the bottle to start carbonating. I didn't end up adding extra yeast or warming the bottles. I've got them all in the fridge now that I am happy with their carb level in the hope they will age and not gas anymore.
I think patience is the key with these high gravity brews.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Quintrex (22/6/09)

Stuster said:


> In secondary? After how long? I've never had an issue with autolysis in big beers (though I have tasted it in others beers).
> 
> I've done a number of big beers but the only one I had any issues getting down in gravity was this RIS - possibly due to the high percentage of dark malts.



OH my bad, didn't read the *secondary* bit.

Just as an experiment I left ~5L on the full yeastcake, obviously this makes the yeast/beer ratio higher than it would be normally, and so it was probably a lot more pronounced than if you left the whole batch on the yeast cake. It had masses of yeast lees character after 2 months on it.


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## Jesse (23/6/09)

Stuster said:


> The RIS I did with crozdog a couple of years back started at 1095 and stalled at 1030, also on a yeast cake to start. Chucked more ale yeast at it but to no avail. Ended up bottling it after only a few weeks in secondary and found ourselves with bottle bombs after a while. Not too pretty. I'd definitely recommend leaving it in secondary for much longer than 3 weeks. Especially at this time of year if you don't have temp control. Since you're probably going to want to age this for a while, I'd suggest you leave it in secondary for as long as you can.



Bottle bombs are not cool

So two weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary is to short? I have crude temp control. I stick the fermentor in a big esky of water (100L+) and hold the esky at 18 degrees with ice/hot water

It does have a swag load of dark malts in it...12.5% could this be why it is so sticky (1113>1042)? 62% attenuation  I was aiming for 75% with the nottingham

It does taste fairly sweet still. What if I didn't carb the bottles?


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## Stuster (23/6/09)

Jesse said:


> What if I didn't carb the bottles?



The problem is that you can't be sure exactly how much more fermentation there is to go. Which could be dangerous. :unsure: 

I wouldn't worry about keeping the temp down to 18C now it's nearly finished. Letting the temperature rise will help the yeast keep going and ferment a little more. What are ambient temps for you at the moment?


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## floppinab (23/6/09)

Stuster said:


> I've done a number of big beers but the only one I had any issues getting down in gravity was this RIS - possibly due to the high percentage of dark malts.



I've still got the bottle of that you gave me Stu. Actually put it in the fridge to have a crack at it last weekend but forgot about it amongst the usual chaos!!!!!


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## Jesse (23/6/09)

Stuster said:


> The problem is that you can't be sure exactly how much more fermentation there is to go. Which could be dangerous. :unsure:
> 
> I wouldn't worry about keeping the temp down to 18C now it's nearly finished. Letting the temperature rise will help the yeast keep going and ferment a little more. What are ambient temps for you at the moment?




Ambient is 12-14 overnight and 22 during the day.....The tub of water being 100L+ stays constand 18+ or - 0.5 degrees

I have a heater I could sitck on the fermentor.....

I keep trying to rouse the yeast by shaking the fermentor but nothing seems to be working 

Tastes great when i do hydrometer samples


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## Dave86 (2/7/09)

I got a couple of freebies from my LHBS (out of date stock) that I'm thinking of turning into an imperial stout type brew. Looking for minimal effort. It might not be great, but it'll be a low cost brew that could turn out to be a lovely winter warmer in a few years time.

I've got a muntons barleywine kit and a morgan's masterblend roasted malt can (both out of date freebies)

A coopers IPA kit that I can't be bothered doing another K&K with, I'm in a hurry to get out the mash tun again!

The three of these made up to 20L would give about 90 IBU and OG 1065 I calculate. Being k&k and the extended aging I'll be doing I was think of adding another kit with some dark DME. The best k&k I ever made was a cascade porter and a kilo of dark DME with some steeped choc malt, so I was thinking of basically making the same beer and adding my extra cans to that to produce an imperial stout/porter (OG 1110, 110-130 IBU?) to put away for a few years. Will have a nice big yeast cake of 1272 to dump it on next week (extra savings!)

So, a terrible idea, or worth trying?

Cheers in advance

Edit: Will this beer be qualified as more a baltic porter?


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## Steve (2/7/09)

The RIS is on at the Wig & Pen now. Pheeewwwwwy! Its got balls!. Its now 12 months old. 10% alc. Its only served in half pint glasses.
Cheers
Steve


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## Sammus (2/7/09)

I just missed out on the RIS at the wig n pen  Sucks, I was in the berra right during the change of seasons, so I missed out on the venom and the hopidemic too.
ahh well, anywho, I did my first RIS just recently. Left it 3-4wks in primary and wasn't budging from 1.030. Reading this thread mightve made me anxious, except its FG is right on target, so I'm not really expecting it to go down more  just that time in primary was enough to make it taste like vegemite though  heres hoping it gets better somehow with age.


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## Brewer_010 (6/7/09)

Sammus said:


> I just missed out on the RIS at the wig n pen  Sucks, I was in the berra right during the change of seasons, so I missed out on the venom and the hopidemic too.
> ahh well, anywho, I did my first RIS just recently. Left it 3-4wks in primary and wasn't budging from 1.030. Reading this thread mightve made me anxious, except its FG is right on target, so I'm not really expecting it to go down more  just that time in primary was enough to make it taste like vegemite though  heres hoping it gets better somehow with age.



I tried the hopidemic and found it a bit ordinary, so much promise but the result was a bit disappointing. Their IPA is better (or the hand pumped pale ale) IMO.


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## raven19 (30/12/09)

Planning my first RIS, the mash will 'span the decades!' - overnight mash... :lol:  

Comments? Thoughts?


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 17 RIS 'Span of the Decades'
Style: Imperial Stout

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 20.00 L 
Boil Size: 31.36 L
Estimated OG: 1.080 SG
Estimated Color: 94.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 59.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
6.00 kg Pale Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 75.47 % 
0.50 kg Wheat (2.5 SRM) Grain 6.29 % 
0.40 kg Caramalt (125.0 SRM) Grain 5.03 % 
0.40 kg Choc Malt (1200.0 SRM) Grain 5.03 % 
0.35 kg Crystal (140.0 SRM) Grain 4.40 % 
0.30 kg Roast Barley (1400.0 SRM) Grain 3.77 % 
25.00 gm Chinese Cluster [6.80 %] (60 min) Hops 18.1 IBU 
25.00 gm Chinese Cascade [5.80 %] (60 min) Hops 15.4 IBU 
25.00 gm Chinese Cascade [5.80 %] (30 min) Hops 11.8 IBU 
25.00 gm Chinese Cluster [6.80 %] (30 min) Hops 13.9 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs 1084 (Wyeast) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: *** Single Infusion, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 7.95 kg
----------------------------
*** Single Infusion, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
600 min Mash In Add 20.72 L of water at 71.2 C 65.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 11.60 L of water at 97.2 C 75.6 C


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## bradsbrew (3/1/10)

AndrewQLD said:


> Mine dropped from 1.105 down to 1.024, took 2 + months in the bottle to start carbonating. I didn't end up adding extra yeast or warming the bottles. I've got them all in the fridge now that I am happy with their carb level in the hope they will age and not gas anymore.
> I think patience is the key with these high gravity brews.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew



Andrew how did these ones end up??

Cheers Brad


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## fuddnuddler (22/1/10)

Anyone have a k&k recipe for RIS?
the link on page 2 to grain and grape doesn't work and searching there (and here) I can't find one.
much obliged for any help...
cheers


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## raven19 (21/2/10)

RIS from the recipe post #52 above.

It tasted really hot out of the fermentor at room temp, but now it has been chilled and carbonated slightly, it is not too bad at all.

Looking forward to see how this ages...

Cheers! :icon_cheers: 





Edit - post # added.


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## Melthar (12/3/10)

fuddnuddler said:


> Anyone have a k&k recipe for RIS?
> the link on page 2 to grain and grape doesn't work and searching there (and here) I can't find one.
> much obliged for any help...
> cheers



2 Cooper's Stout kits.
1kg LDME
1kg Dex.
Nottingham Yeast.

Might be worth adding the sugar/LDME over several days (300 of each initially, another 300 after a day or two, the rest a day or two after that) as I found the krausen took on a life of its own, making its way across the cellar.


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## paulwolf350 (12/3/10)

bradsbrew said:


> Andrew how did these ones end up??
> 
> Cheers Brad




I have oneof Andrews, I might bring it with me to Chappos, if you are going to hang around

Paul


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## mb83 (13/3/10)

What do you guys think about this grain bill for a RIS?


Vladimir the Stout 
March 12, 2010	

Category	Stout
Subcategory	Russian Imperial Stout
Recipe Type	All Grain
Batch Size	13 liters
Volume Boiled	20 liters
Mash Efficiency	72 %
Total Grain/Extract	6.45 kg.
Total Hops	150.0 g.
Calories (12 fl. oz.)	410.8
Cost to Brew	$52.35 (USD)
Cost per Bottle (12 fl. oz.)	$1.43 (USD)

4 kg.	Australian Traditional Ale info
1 kg.	Brown Malt info
.25 kg.	Black Roasted Barley info
.05 kg.	Chocolate Malt info
1 kg.	Amber Malt info
.3 kg.	Oats Flaked info
100 g.	Czech Saaz (Pellets, 4 %AA) boiled 90 min. info
50 g.	Czech Saaz (Pellets, 4 %AA) boiled 20 min. info
1 tsp.	5.2 pH Stabilizer (not included in calculations)
Yeast :	White Labs WLP004 Irish Stout info 

Predicted BJPC Guidelines Compliance
Original Gravity 1.102 1.075 - 1.095 65 %
Terminal Gravity	1.027 1.018 - 1.030 100 %
Color 36.25 SRM 30.00 - 40.00 SRM 100 %
Bitterness 118.7 IBU 50.00 - 90.00 IBU 28 %
Alcohol (%volume)	10.0 % 8.00 - 12.00 % 100 %
79 % overall

Cheers,

Michael


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## Effect (13/3/10)

Coming from someone who has never brewed a RIS before, my advice may not be the best. But as I am also planning a RIS in the next few weeks, I have been doing a bit of reading up. So here are my thoughts on your recipe.

Firstly I think that you need a lot more roast barley and choc malt, I think you need atleast 3 times more. As far as the hops go, I think you could find a better bittering hop, maybe por or northern brewer. With the later hops, are you considering aging this beer, you may find that the malt on the beer will overpower the hop flavour and the extended conditioning may lend the flavour to deteriate.

Hope this helps some,

cheers
Phil


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## paulwolf350 (13/3/10)

I dont think I would use saaz in a RIS, it is going to roasty and overpowering the hop anyway. 
I would up the choc to equal parts with the roast (250g apiece) or do away with it and up your brown malt to 1.5kg.

I am no means an expert, and its your beer, if you like the look of it (grist) give it a go, it certainly wont be bad

Paul


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## mb83 (14/3/10)

paulwolf350 said:


> I dont think I would use saaz in a RIS, it is going to roasty and overpowering the hop anyway.
> I would up the choc to equal parts with the roast (250g apiece) or do away with it and up your brown malt to 1.5kg.
> 
> I am no means an expert, and its your beer, if you like the look of it (grist) give it a go, it certainly wont be bad
> ...




Yeah, I am going to age this beer. I chose Saaz because I've got heaps of it and I just want to use it up.
I do plan to adjust the roasted malt to 10% of the grain bill after listening to Jamil's podcast.

Cheers,

Michael


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## raven19 (15/3/10)

raven19 said:


> BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
> Recipe: 17 RIS 'Span of the Decades'
> Style: Imperial Stout
> 
> ...



Out of interest this was judged a 29.75 at the Tanunda Show this week.

It has only been conditioning/aging for around 2 months.


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## RAS (5/4/10)

I notice reading this thread that there is no mention of oatmeal although it seems like the mouthfeel would go well with the style.

Is there a reason why it is not required in RIS? Difficult to mash/sparge with the large grain bill?


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## Back Yard Brewer (5/4/10)

Phillip said:


> Coming from someone who has never brewed a RIS before, my advice may not be the best. But as I am also planning a RIS in the next few weeks, I have been doing a bit of reading up. So here are my thoughts on your recipe.
> 
> Firstly I think that you need a lot more roast barley and choc malt, I think you need atleast 3 times more. As far as the hops go, I think you could find a better bittering hop, maybe por or northern brewer. With the later hops, are you considering aging this beer, you may find that the malt on the beer will overpower the hop flavour and the extended conditioning may lend the flavour to deteriate.
> 
> ...




My thoughts exactly. If you are brewing something like a RIS with a variety of hops that have had some issues in recent times, go with something that has a good track record. Having only just bottled mine yesterday the recipe had near on 10% roasted grains with a bit of amber and crystal thrown in.

BYB


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## kabooby (1/3/11)

Brewed 33 litres of a RIS on the weekend. Just managed to get the 14kg of grain in the mash tun.

14L was cubed separately. Will add 5 liters of water to make a more drinkable stout and will also provide the yeast cake for the 19L of RIS.

9.00 kg Ale Malt, (Powells) (6.0 EBC) Grain 60.00 % 
3.50 kg Munich, Light (Powells) (20.0 EBC) Grain 23.33 % 
0.50 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 3.33 % 
0.50 kg Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (925.9 EBC) Grain 3.33 % 
0.50 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (1398.7 EBC) Grain 3.33 % 
50.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [9.30 %] (60 min) Hops 23.3 IBU 
100.00 gm Target [9.00 %] (60 min) Hops 45.0 IBU 
50.00 gm Williamette [4.90 %] (20 min) Hops 7.4 IBU 
50.00 gm Williamette [4.90 %] (10 min) Hops 4.4 IBU 
1.00 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
10.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Boil 60.0 min) Misc 
1.00 kg Brown Sugar, Dark (98.5 EBC) Sugar 6.67 % 
1 Pkgs Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) Yeast-Ale 

Original Gravity: 1.102 SG 
Estimated Color: 111.4 EBC (59.1-78.8 EBC) Color
Bitterness: 80.1 IBU (50.0-90.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 56.8 AAU 
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 10.56 % 

Really looking forward to see how this one goes. First running looked like sump oil 

Kabooby


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## kabooby (28/3/11)

Pitched this one on Friday onto 500ml of yeast slurry. Had to clean up the fridge on Saturday and install a blowoff. Came in this morning to find the blow off bottle overflowing and another mess in the fridge.

This yeast is an animal.

I missed my OG by a fair bit @1084. Sitting at 1022 atm after 3 days and taste pretty good. Still wondering if I should add some LDME at this stage to increase the gravity slightly. I did really want to do my first 1.100 brew

Any thoughts?

Kabooby


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## vykuza (28/3/11)

Well, you've got your batch of the more drinkable stout from the brew, so why not? Go big I say!

I think with those kind of heavy roast flavours in your recipe, you won't notice any flavour contributions from extract.


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## bradsbrew (26/9/11)

I have a cube that needs to be pitched today. Problem is I was planning to use a nice big yeast cake but havn't got one ready, the big beers I have made in the past have all been on cakes. 

Should I use 1 or 2 satchels of 15g english yeast? 
Missed my expected OG becuase of a calculation error, didn't change my eff. for the mash. I was aiming for 1095 but ended with 1081.

*Ris Sole*
Imperial Stout

*Recipe Specs*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 22.0
Total Grain (kg): 8.250
Total Hops (g): 75.80
Original Gravity (OG): 1.081 (P): 19.6
Final Gravity (FG): 1.020 (P): 5.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 7.96 %
Colour (SRM): 61.4 (EBC): 120.9
Bitterness (IBU): 54.4 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 72
Boil Time (Minutes): 90

*Grain Bill*
----------------
4.000 kg Maris Otter Malt (48.48%)
2.000 kg Vienna (24.24%)
1.000 kg Roasted Barley (12.12%)
0.500 kg Chocolate, Pale (6.06%)
0.500 kg Flaked Oats (6.06%)
0.250 kg Crystal 90 (3.03%)

*Hop Bill*
----------------
50. g Aurora Pellet (10.3% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (2.3 g/L)
25. g Styrian Golding Pellet (4.4% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Cube Hop) (1.1 g/L) can't remember if I added this one had a couple well before the brewday started. B) Will find out when I empty the cube.

*Misc Bill*
----------------

Single step Infusion at 66C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 20C with 


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


Cheers Brad


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## RdeVjun (26/9/11)

Have you got two sachets handy brad? If so, I'd probably use both.
Perhaps you could Double Drop with 1/2 of the cube one day and then the other 1/2 the next or the day after, particularly if its sluggish?


----------



## raven19 (26/9/11)

RdeVjun said:


> Have you got two sachets handy brad? If so, I'd probably use both.
> Perhaps you could Double Drop with 1/2 of the cube one day and then the other 1/2 the next or the day after, particularly if its sluggish?



+1 on the double drop for sure. I hit the high end of the yeasts attenuation using this method on a recent EIPA. I did my double drop after 24 hours.


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## bradsbrew (2/10/11)

RdeVjun said:


> Have you got two sachets handy brad? If so, I'd probably use both.
> Perhaps you could Double Drop with 1/2 of the cube one day and then the other 1/2 the next or the day after, particularly if its sluggish?






raven19 said:


> +1 on the double drop for sure. I hit the high end of the yeasts attenuation using this method on a recent EIPA. I did my double drop after 24 hours.




Thanks fellas, 
Hmmm perhaps I should have returned to this thread a bit earlier, I didn't even think of it at the time but yes I should have double dropped....DOH. Being an impatient bastard no-one replied to my question within 10 minutes so I just used the one satchel ( although yes Ralph I grabbed 2 intending to use both for this brew, but the fist tightened and wouldn't let me use the second :huh: ) it went nuts in the first 36 hours, overflowed all through the fermenting tucker box and has made a huge mess. But now has stalled at 1032 for the last three days. Tastes fickin fantastic though.
I am thinking of racking to another fermenter and using the second satchel to see if I can get it down further.

Thoughts??

Cheers Brad


----------



## RdeVjun (2/10/11)

(Shit, must type quicker!  )
Not to worry Brad, the transfer to secondary will give it a bit of a rouse, particularly if you let a bit of fermenter trub in too and it should end up gently distributed all through the wort. Then I'd leave it for a few days and if no sign of it dropping lower, add the remaining yeast. I'm no expert at these things, but that's probably what I'd do.
I've still got mine on the drawing board, I'm now on leave for three weeks and have plenty of time up my sleeve to knock this one off.


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## winkle (18/10/11)

I had a Haandbryggeriet Dark Force at Archive and was quite impressed.


> Dark Force is as far as we know the only wheat stout in
> the universe. This is a true wheat beer made from
> mainly wheat malt and lots of dark roasted malts, our
> house wheat yeast and plenty of both bittering and
> ...


Now I'm not trying to punch out a clone of it, but rather something in a similar line like this (probably more a BDS/Imperial Stout 'Mashup'
to be honest).

Impy Wheat Stout 
Imperial Stout 
Type: All Grain
Batch Size (fermenter): 20.00 l 
Boil Size: 29.01 l 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Pot and Cooler (10 Gal/37.8 L) - All Grain 
End of Boil Volume 24.73 l Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 % 
Final Bottling Volume: 17.16 l Est Mash Efficiency 86.9 % 
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0 

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
3.00 kg Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) Grain 2 37.5 % 
3.50 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 1 43.8 % 
0.10 kg Black (Patent) Malt (985.0 EBC) Grain 5 1.3 % 
0.50 kg Wheat, Roasted (837.3 EBC) Grain 4 6.3 % 
0.40 kg Brown Sugar, Light (15.8 EBC) Sugar 6 5.0 % 
50.00 g Pacific Gem [15.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 64.2 IBUs 
25.00 g Riwaka [5.25 %] - Aroma Steep 15.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs 
40.00 g Cacao nibs (Secondary 0.0 mins) Spice 12 - 
0.25 tsp Kopperfloc (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 8 - 
1.06 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 11 - 
1.0 pkg Belgian Abbey II (Wyeast Labs #1762) [124.21 ml] Yeast 10 - 
0.50 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 3 6.3 % 

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.090 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 9.9 % 
Bitterness: 64.2 IBUs Calories: 427.1 kcal/l 
Est Color: 82.1 EBC

Maybe could use a touch more IBU's? Thoughts?
Edit: yes I know its not really a RIS.


----------



## Bribie G (18/10/11)

Well it's finally on, RdeV is coming down on Thursday on his holiday peregrinations and we are doing a RIS on the new Bribienator system. Watch out comps 2012


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## RdeVjun (18/10/11)

Sh*t, no chance of banging out two cubes at RIS rates! :angry: Or is the new beta rig that good?! B)


----------



## tiprya (23/2/12)

Do you guys add yeast when you bottle your RIS's?

I was planning on 3 weeks primary / 8 weeks secondary (OG1.085, FG 1.021, wy1084)

Will be aged in the bottle at least 3 months - do you think it will be fine without any extra yeast?


----------



## RdeVjun (23/2/12)

tiprya, all of the FES/RISes I've done have carbonated just fine without any added yeast at bottling. RIS is the sort of beer which should benefit from six months or more of cellaring, so there's plenty of time for it to carbonate at room temperature- should be fine within the three months you have in mind and I wouldn't bother with secondary. Given the time frames involved, it won't hurt at all if there's a little bit of fermenter/ secondary trub transferred into your bottling vessel and that should insure the bottled beer for carbonation.
Hope that helps! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Mikedub (23/2/12)

my RIS stalled at 1.034, added yeast at 4 weeks primary, no change, I racked it with yeast nutrient and it has dropped to 1.030s in the last week, still not enough though, looks like its going to have to sit in secondary for a while yet, its been a challenging beer to make to brew so far, but a good experience


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## tiprya (23/2/12)

Mine has dropped to 1.021 already (after 11 days), which is probably close to FG. I'm in no rush with this beer, just want it to turn out well. It already tastes amazing out of the fermenter, with far fewer fusels than I expected.

Thanks for the advice RdeVjun, so you would recommend just leaving it in primary for ~3 months?


----------



## RdeVjun (23/2/12)

No, TBH I usually aim to be getting it into final packaging after a month or so, the rest of that time in glass is probably best IMO (getting entries into bloody comps can be fiddly though...). Obviously if there's attenuation issues you don't want to dilly dally for ever, I've never had the ill fortune in getting one stuck but sometimes they're just cantankerous old farts. I would certainly consider rousing by way of transferring to secondary with a bit of trub though.


----------



## tiprya (23/2/12)

Ok cheers RdeVjun, that's probably a good idea for my first attempt, bottle after 4 weeks and let it age knowing I have enough yeast to carbonate.

Bulk aging is supposed to have some benefits but given it tastes great at the moment and has hit FG, I think bottling will ensure I will have something great in another 6 months.


----------



## drsmurto (24/2/12)

My current RIS spent 12 months in a keg before bottling, bulk aging is easy if you have kegs, just give them a light carbonation and put them away for as long as you can wait. Great for adding oak to beer - the RIS had a stave of new american oak in it for that time.

Planning on repeating this with some french oak i have and doing somehting similar with an english barleywine.


----------



## Mikedub (24/2/12)

as i posted earlier, i've added extra yeast (high grav s33) racked and added nutrient, although the IBUs are around 95, 1.030 is still bit cloying, maybe because half the grain bill is extract? 
if i dont see any more attenuation over the next few weeks, what do you reckon, should I play the last card, i.e, wine yeast?


----------



## stef (29/8/12)

Just dragging up an old thread.

Perhaps an odd time of the year for it, but i'm planning a RIS at some stage soon- put it away over summer ready for next winter.

My question is, if i add yeast (if necessary) at bottling time, and bulk prime for low carb, will the bottles eventually overcarb if they are left too long?

I dont even have a recipe yet, but if a big beer finishes around 1020 or thereabouts, is there a chance it will begin to ferment again in the bottle? Obviously by leaving in primary/secondary for a long time i'd try to have it fully fermented out, but guess you'd be screwed if it dropped another couple of points whilst in the bottle over 6 months...


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## Yob (10/1/15)

DrSmurto said:


> My current RIS spent 12 months in a keg before bottling, bulk aging is easy if you have kegs, just give them a light carbonation and put them away for as long as you can wait. Great for adding oak to beer - the RIS had a stave of new american oak in it for that time.
> 
> Planning on repeating this with some french oak i have and doing somehting similar with an english barleywine.


planning on doing something like this myself..

Mardoo and I brewed a RIS today and it came out at 1.115, Id like to keg mine and Oak it, Ive got chips but I think I'd like to roast them, while looking for info I came across this, hadnt seen it before so thought Id share,





from >HERE< 

anyone know of a guide as to how much to use x how long? had a bit of a search but couldnt turn anything up.

ed: some extra info >HERE< as well.

ed: ed: Rekon Im gunna go with a 200'c roast for a few hours and then soak in Drambuie for a few weeks, hit it for a month and age.


----------



## TheWiggman (11/1/15)

Whichever way you go Yob your description is making me salivate. Going to _have_ to make an RIS this year and store for the ages.


----------



## Yob (13/1/15)

It's down to 1.060 today, pulled some high gravity yeast out of the freezer, will get that started in the morning and step up for pitching Thursday/Friday... Then I can REALLY start to play with additions.


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## primusbrew (13/1/15)

Yob said:


> It's down to 1.060 today, pulled some high gravity yeast out of the freezer, will get that started in the morning and step up for pitching Thursday/Friday... Then I can REALLY start to play with additions.


An oaked RIS sounds excellent. Any chance you could share the recipe?

So you pitched some yeast into this at 1.115 and are now going to pitch a different strain on top of that? What is the thinking there?


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## Danwood (13/1/15)

Sounds good, J.

I fermented mine with a 4:1 blend of wyeast 007 and 099.

I bottled the 1st PET test bottle a couple weeks ago... and the bottle feels nicely pressurised now

I wasn't sure how effective the yeast would be after months in the keg whilst oaking and having cherry additions at various times... especially in the 11ish % alcohol environment.

But, everything seems fine and I'm looking forward to trying it after the additions.


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## Yob (13/1/15)

primusbrew said:


> An oaked RIS sounds excellent. Any chance you could share the recipe?
> So you pitched some yeast into this at 1.115 and are now going to pitch a different strain on top of that? What is the thinking there?


It's a historical recipe, mardoo may be able to provide the link easier than I.. But.. 

When pushing above %10 it's a good idea to have a high gravity yeast to be able to tolerate the environment it's in.

Hence the 099 for the hard yards, I get the profile I'm after from the T58 but the 099 is for the additional fermentables and carbing if and when I want to bottle


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## MartinOC (13/1/15)

Yob, did you re-oxygenate after about 24 hours? Might not need the 099.


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## Yob (13/1/15)

Went to.. But was already with a krausen so let it be.. 

The stock brew is at about %13 so will add the 099 starter anyway, can't hurt it.


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## Mardoo (13/1/15)

Here's the link for the recipe Yob and I just brewed. As it would have been aged in barrel, oak would of course have been part of the package, although it's not included in the recipe.


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## Yob (13/1/15)

For me, the most alien part was adding grain to the kettle


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## MartinOC (13/1/15)

How big was the volume? If you want to tie-up a keg for a long period, I've got plenty available & can leave it in a corner of my (now insulated) shed for a Looooong while to keep it away from temptation....?

Promise NOT to touch it....


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## Yob (13/1/15)

Though I think you a hero for offering... I think I can find a place in the cellar for it.. Besides... I will need to put in and pull out the oak at various stages 

Ed: I should add, this one is by far at the most seriously extreme end of brewing I've ever attempted (within style) and big ups to mardoo for bringing the game plan..


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## MartinOC (13/1/15)

Yob said:


> big ups to mardoo for bringing the game plan..


That man should be knighted, or given a GPS for finding his way in the dark.. h34r:


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## Mr. No-Tip (13/1/15)

MartinOC said:


> Yob, did you re-oxygenate after about 24 hours? Might not need the 099.


Hmm I did my annual RIS and EBW over the weekend and just plum forgot this strategy. They were both 1.090 OG though and had started very hard by 12 hours, so hopefully all good.


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## TheWiggman (13/1/15)

What's purpose of adding the grain to the kettle, and how much of what? I can't see it in the link Mardoo provided.


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## Mardoo (13/1/15)

Yeah, it's not in the recipe. It's something I dug up in a couple of the other threads on Ron Pattinson's site, which was also confirmed by a couple threads on HomeBrewTalk.com. The notion is that when using black/patent malt (not roasted barley) in stouts and the like, adding 10% of the total amount of the black malt to the kettle as whole malt helps bring out more very dark, raisiny flavors. This is an old technique, which makes sense because it is an historic brewing site.

Doing that was more of a, "what the **** let's try it" than out of certainty or experience. Apparently it's there historically as something that was regularly done by certain brewers. I'd love to say we'll let you know how it goes, but without a control batch that didn't use the whole malt in the kettle it'll be impossible to tell. But damn did that ugly looking kettle smell goooooood, and very, very complex. I've never smelled such a huge range of scents coming from a kettle.


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## Yob (13/1/15)

Again, mardoo may better answer this, I asked the same, but as far as I recall it was to aid in the development of raisins flavour.. Deliberate astringency and other reactions that I know **** all about 

Ed: snap


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## technobabble66 (13/1/15)

Mardoo said:


> ... "what the **** let's try it" ...


Isn't that Yob's brewing philosophy right there?!? Or maybe it's just with hops.
That and a thumb. B)

You sure it's not gonna be ready for the July Case Swap? :mellow:


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## Yob (13/1/15)

technobabble66 said:


> You sure it's not gonna be ready for the July Case Swap? :mellow:


a bottle if you are lucky h34r:

when is raspberry season?

Sir.. the thumb is a respectable and (increasingly) almost repeatable measure of almost anything.. how many cooks/chefs do you know that weigh out things to the enth degree?




:icon_offtopic: I actually am about to embark on a measured 2 brew, I need to find out some stats on my rig and the only way to do it is to measure the known variables, in this case bveing temp and time with the grain bill being exactly the same...


sorry, I digress.. if its any consolation it was discussed when brewing the behemoth RIS mentioned above


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## mofox1 (14/1/15)

I didn't brew a thing over the Xmas/new year break, but this thread has me hankering for the next big stout brew.


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## Yob (14/1/15)

Turns out I have a friend doing some lab work and has offered to do some testing on my beers for nix, thinking I'll put this one forward for analysis. 

IBU 
Alcohol content
Bacterial 

Any others that I should get tested for?


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## Mardoo (14/1/15)

Color.


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## manticle (14/1/15)

Ability to attract beautiful, naked people toward the drinker.
Ability to make the drinker beautiful, naked.
Ability to turn the drinker into a nobel prize winning author.


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## Mardoo (14/1/15)

Protein content???


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## technobabble66 (15/1/15)

manticle said:


> Ability to attract beautiful, naked people toward the drinker.
> Ability to make the drinker beautiful, naked.
> Ability to turn the drinker into a nobel prize winning author.


Yeah, covered that: Alcohol content


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## Yob (18/1/15)

am I being impatient? It has only been a week after all...

it's slowed significantly and is sitting at 1.038, (20'c) still tastes a bit sweet to me from the hydrometer sample, everything else is divine though.

I'm thinking I may have added the 099 a touch too late, though I did add it with 3lt of 1.055 wort + 500ml amber? dark? candi syrup.

I'll watch it over the next week having just added the Dry hops but I'm tempted to...

A - Brew something else and rack onto the cake
B - Hit it with 2 x EC1118 (this worries me as I dont want to dry it out too much)
C - Lower the temps and hit it with some Lager yeast (alc content worries me for this though, currently %10.11)
D - Leave the bloody thing alone for another week then rack to secondary, on raspberries, leave for another week before doing anything...

its got 20 points to go and Im just a little concerned it wont get there.. anything I can try Ive missed?


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## manticle (18/1/15)

1st port of call would be patience. You can return to other options if patience fails.

Not sure the cake will be super healthy considering the dark, high grav brew that's gone before it.


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## Yob (18/1/15)

I meant brew something else with a new yeast and rack the RIS onto that..

I will play patience first though


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## manticle (18/1/15)

Ah ok. I get you.
Patience and two types of fast ferment test. One to see if this brew has anywhere to go, as is and one to see where it could go with active starter of new yeast.

+ patience.


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## Mardoo (18/1/15)

Forced Ferment test?

Edit: E beat one to it, guv.


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## Yob (5/2/15)

orright.. ere's what happened...

could not get it to go below 1.040 ish and still tasted a bit sweet.. so I did opt for option a

"A - Brew something else and rack onto the cake"

fermented a pale, racked it off the cake. Racked the RIS into a new FV onto 1.5kg of raspberries and then slopped the cake from the pale onto that.. felt *VERY* weird doing so, first cake Ive ever used... anywhoo, Rasbpberries now coming through very nicely indeed.

so bit of a refresher on the stats of the brew.

OG 1.115 (Ceiling for style)
FG 1.028 (1.030 is Ceiling for style)
%11.42

also added 3lt of 1.050 and 500ml Candi Syrup (not added to calculations for %alc. Every time I ferment a big beer the game is always different, I really enjoy the challenges a big beer demands on a brewer, you need to be flexible and creative in how you deal with them to get them to where you want them.

It's incredibly young (still in FV :lol: ) but Im thinking of entering one in Beerfest, just rack a PET and force carb.


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## Yob (15/2/15)

Attached photo of the RIS Raspberries, just kegged and 6 PET Bottles, Mardoo and I had a forced carbed bottle between us the other night and it's fair to say, it is indeed a big beer.





The Raspberries look to be smothered in yeast, having not done a lot with fruit and beer before, is it safe to assume that much of the sugars in the Raspberries would also have been consumed? How the hell would you calc for it?

The RIS has a great Raspberry tone to it, the flavor and aroma have come through just nicely , quite strong at this point, but that's OK as the aging will back it off, Starting to plan the toasted oak chips to go in the keg after a few weeks as is at ambient I think.

I'll be bringing one to Beerfest to have as a snooter post comp on Sat, Ive also entered one into Stouts which I expect I'll get slammed for  ..

:icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2:


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## Yob (15/2/15)

Make that 5 PET bottles...


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## Mardoo (15/2/15)

FMD, are you planning on making it through an entire bottle on your own? Actually, by this point I expect I'll hear from you tomorrow.


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## Yob (15/2/15)

it's like a nightcap.. an incredibly velvety evil black nightcap... or painkillers or something..

either way, there is a delicious little hum going on in me right now and I think I'll have a little lay down if you dont mind...


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## Samuel Adams (18/7/16)

My 100th all grain brew in next up and I've decided to brew a RIS for something special 
I'm going to brew the 1914 Courage Imperial in the link below


Mardoo said:


> Here's the link for the recipe Yob and I just brewed. As it would have been aged in barrel, oak would of course have been part of the package, although it's not included in the recipe.


I'll be doing a reiterated mash in my 40L urn BIAB system and no chilling.
I'm going to add some oak to the cube and probably let the cube sit till the weather warms up a bit for my ale yeast.

With the yeast I'm tossing up between 1469, Nottingham or both together. What do you think ?


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## Yob (18/7/16)

depends on what you're after, Mardoo is a fan of the 1469 where Im more of a 1728 / 1275  and even greenbelt, (Just fermenting one with 1275 this now - effective 4L starter for a 1.135 OG and got down to 1.032-35 double dropped and thrashed like a red headed step child)

I'd tread carefully with Notto, you want to leave a goodly amount of body and notto is a hungry beast


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## Mardoo (18/7/16)

The 1728 goes very well. Yob's was lovely. 1469 is great for dark beers that aren't too dry. I'm going to have a go at this with Burton Ale, which may be replacing 1469 in my heart. Horses for courses, but I myself would choose a "character" yeast over Notto.


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## VP Brewing (18/7/16)

Double dropped?


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## Yob (18/7/16)

the active starter was dropped into a 10lt wort, whisked as mentioned twice that night and the next morning (12 hours) another 10tl was added and it was all soundly thrashed again, the idea being that you are trying to keep the yeast in growth for the first 18 hours.

Worked pretty well too, dropped to terminal in 7 days from a 12 month frozen vial B) (not including starter time)


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## VP Brewing (18/7/16)

Aaahhh I see. I'm going to get the vic swap brew fermenting with 1335 British ale II slurry and was going to dump 20L of soon to be made RIS on the cake. Have you used that yeast before for a RIS? I'm just worried about the yeast floccing out early. 
Can dig some 1275 out of the freezer instead and get it spinning. Thoughts?


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## Yob (18/7/16)

I don't know the yeast man, the 1275 said medium body and up to %10 but must have gone over that based on the numbers (%12) so as long as you look after the starter and pitch, many things are possible..


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## Yob (18/7/16)

Wy1335. Will finish dry it says, not sure if that's the best choice for a RIS but Hay, give it a go if you or even spin up the 1275 and split the batch to compare?


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## MartinOC (18/7/16)

VP Brewing said:


> Aaahhh I see. I'm going to get the vic swap brew fermenting with 1335 British ale II slurry and was going to dump 20L of soon to be made RIS on the cake. Have you used that yeast before for a RIS? I'm just worried about the yeast floccing out early.
> Can dig some 1275 out of the freezer instead and get it spinning. Thoughts?


Don't use 1335 for a RIS - it just won't work. It's one of the strains used by Adnams & isn't known as a good attenuator.


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## VP Brewing (18/7/16)

Fark thanks guys. Glad I asked the question! Won't be brewing it for a few weeks. Used 1275 once and it crawled out of the fermenter. I've got my head around doing a reiterated mash on my system so now just need to get some ingredients. 
Cheers legends.


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## droid (18/7/16)

I used Wyeast London Ale 1028 and was very happy with it...just to give that strain a justifiable shout out.


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## Reman (18/7/16)

Great minds! Except I'm doing mine as a Baltic Porter, ie. Using lager yeast



Reman said:


> Courage 1914 RIS as a Baltic Porter
> Taken from http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/lets-brew-wednesday-1914-courage.html?m=1
> 
> Was a real SOB as it didn't fit in my pot and it leaked everywhere, the. Hauling out 10kg of wet grain was a new experience that sucked and caused more liquid to go everywhere. Finally got 18.5L repitched onto a Vienna Lager yeast cake, at 12c it had already started pumping out the sulfur 8 hours later.
> ...


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## Grainer (18/7/16)

if you want the Russian Imperial here it is...approximately..

The precursor to the eventual RIS - 1937 - Older version but no the RIS - http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/11/courage-russian-imperial-stout.html

info on the RIS history - http://www.mpeterson.co.uk/irs.htm

Yet to find the real RIS recipe...Closest I could get was this.. http://www.beerinfinity.com/brewing-a-russian-imperial-stout/

The quoted recipe above is an Imperial Stout 1914 to be technical, not the RIS. the RIS only started in 1969.

Pretty sure there is a big difference between Imperial stout and Russian Imperial for the courage..Pretty sure the Russian had Brett in it.. it was 1st brewed in 1969 by Barclays. Prior to this it was a different recipe called Imperial Stout.

If you want to get down and dirty try finding this receipe..now thats OLD

1781 - Thrale's Intire

The 1st RIS ever made by records.

..just to confuse people a little..now for the comebacks from the crowd.


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## Brewman_ (19/7/16)

droid said:


> I used Wyeast London Ale 1028 and was very happy with it...just to give that strain a justifiable shout out.


My first RIS, just made. I had every available yeast and this is the one I went with.

First taste and I am not disappointed.

There are definitely other yeasts that are great options. But 1028 was my choice this time.


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## Yob (19/7/16)

Brewman_ said:


> My first RIS, just made. I had every available yeast and this is the one I went with.
> 
> First taste and I am not disappointed.
> 
> There are definitely other yeasts that are great options. But 1028 was my choice this time.


Bottle swap!!


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## Mardoo (19/7/16)

Yeah, droid's RIS was fantastic. I may give the 1028 a go.


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## Mardoo (19/7/16)

Yob said:


> Bottle swap!!


Same recipe different yeasts? Whatever we want? I'm in.


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## Yob (19/7/16)

You know.. I don't think I have 1028 in the library off the top of my head... 

I can feel a yeast buy up on the cards...


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## AJ80 (19/7/16)

Yob said:


> Bottle swap!!


Will have to brew something, but count me in.


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## MastersBrewery (19/7/16)

Yob said:


> Bottle swap!!


might take some of this action too, might need some spec malt.

Martin!??!


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## yankinoz (19/7/16)

Imperial stouts head the list of beers I buy every now and then but never brew, because I can't imagine working through 20 litres of it even with help. Am I alone that way?


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## Yob (19/7/16)

Yes...


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (19/7/16)

I hate to say it, but the RIS (which I thought was good enough, but not extraordinary) that won a gold in the Tas HBC a couple yeast back was just s04, skimmed from the krausen of an actively fermenting mild.

It was the only thing I had available, I can't remember if MJ M79 was available at the time (I know I brewed with it in Tas), but it gives more 'Belgian' characteristics for mine, so stuck with something simple.

As I said, I thought it was good, but not that good, but someone else obviously did.


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## Brewman_ (19/7/16)

Yob said:


> Bottle swap!!


Sure... RIS?

I actually bottled all of mine into 330ml stubbies.


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## sp0rk (19/7/16)

Very tempted to brew a RIS to break in my new system, and use up the 5-10kg each of Black Malt, RB and Choc malt I have...


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## GABBA110360 (19/7/16)

yankinoz said:


> Imperial stouts head the list of beers I buy every now and then but never brew, because I can't imagine working through 20 litres of it even with help. Am I alone that way?


put in a glass and drink it
it wont go off overnight lol


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## GABBA110360 (19/7/16)

i just put an order in for ingredients today and chose 1028
mainly because in wyeast site under styles there was a selection suitable and only a few available around the sites


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## drsmurto (19/7/16)

yankinoz said:


> Imperial stouts head the list of beers I buy every now and then but never brew, because I can't imagine working through 20 litres of it even with help. Am I alone that way?


20L?

Pussy!


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## Mikeyr (19/7/16)

DrSmurto said:


> 20L?
> Pussy!


Dr Smurto no more....... we shall call you henceforth .....Rasputin...

That is a digital butt load of RIS


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## Yob (19/7/16)

DrSmurto said:


> 20L?
> Pussy!


Only 2?


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## drsmurto (20/7/16)

Yob said:


> Only 2?


I have 2 kegs of RIS with oak staves in them as well


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## Yob (20/7/16)

DrSmurto said:


> I have 2 kegs of RIS with oak staves in them as well


Just as well, I was getting worried about you


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