# Tether: END OF - BIAB



## acarey (21/12/13)

Hi All,

I've been brewing beer after beer of astringent rubbish. Multiple recipes all have the same problem. My setup and steps I have taken are/is as follows: 

BIRKO 40L exposed element urn. No chill. Water ph is 7

Step 1: stopped squeezing bag re: tannins
step 2: stopped changing temp (mashing out etc) to remove potential grain hotspots
step 3: stopped sparging
step 4: dialled back hops re: no chill
Step 5: used 5.2 mash ph stabiliser http://www.midwestsupplies.com/5-2-mash-stabilizer.html

all my beers still come out astringent/ super bitter. I'm sick of it. can anyone give me anthything else to try to try and fix this? Please ask for more info as I know I haven't given enough. Help me help myself!!!

Getting to the point where I want to throw it all in.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (21/12/13)

Mate - have you had other brewers taste your brews???
Cheers
BBB


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## bradsbrew (21/12/13)

Can you provide a recipe of one of the beers?


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## dent (21/12/13)

Step 1: stopped squeezing bag re: tannins - *this is a myth*
step 2: stopped changing temp (mashing out etc) to remove potential grain hotspots - *don't see how this would make any difference*
step 3: stopped sparging - *possibly, probably not*
step 4: dialled back hops re: no chill - *ok*
Step 5: used 5.2 mash ph stabiliser - *this stuff isn't very good - it puts a bunch of sodium in your beer and has a limited range of effectiveness. *

Perhaps you have hard, minerally water. This could give an impression that would be associated with astringency - a sort of sandpaper-tongue-frictiony effect.

Water pH is irrelevant (within reason). Check your mash pH. I would avoid putting any further minerals in your water at this point, perhaps try adding some phosphoric or similar to your sparge water.

Or you might have some non-mash related problem altogether. Some other brewer's tastings can help.


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## Adr_0 (21/12/13)

are you getting husks from your bag into your boil? I read one of your other posts and although over-sparging could cause it, I don't think it is in this case.

EDIT: or scorching your grains on the bottom of the birko?


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## acarey (21/12/13)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Mate - have you had other brewers taste your brews???
> Cheers
> BBB


..no. I keep meaning to take a sample to mark at MHB but haven't yet. Anyone in the newcastle area wanna come and help me out?


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## thedragon (21/12/13)

Along with the recipe, let us know whether you no-chill.

[edit] Cancel that... You've described it in step 4.


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## Adr_0 (21/12/13)

acarey said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've been brewing beer after beer of astringent rubbish. Multiple recipes all have the same problem. My setup and steps I have taken are/is as follows:
> 
> ...


acarey no-chills... can't see how this is relevant to astringency.

exposed element urn has its drawbacks though...


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## acarey (21/12/13)

The one before last was 

90% aus pale malt
10% torrified wheat

single step 65c, rinse with 65c water 2l to make hop pre boil volume

90 min boil
8g nelson @ 60 
15g nelseon @ 20
20g nelson @ 10
30g nelson @ 1
30g nelson dry hop after vigorous fermentation 

wyeast 1050


but it seams to be recipe independent.

edit: temperature stuff

How should I be cleaning my bag? the next step is to get a totally new one


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## acarey (21/12/13)

I just heat to strike temp and put the grain in. End of. 

Would the boil be responsible? I've thought that it could be more vigourous.... 

edit: spelling


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## acarey (21/12/13)

re pitching an aerating, I pour from a hight into the fermenter and pitch the swelled yeast pack. that is all.


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## Adr_0 (21/12/13)

Not sure... Are there ANY times during your brew that you could be boiling the grain husks? See anything floating around, or on the bottom once you transfer? Any holes in the bag? Burn marks?


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## bradsbrew (21/12/13)

acarey said:


> The one before last was
> 
> 90% aus pale malt
> 10% torrified wheat
> ...


What was your process for that recipe.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (21/12/13)

This would be a really good step - they might pinpoint exactly what 'taste' it is. This will help remedy the problem......... 



acarey said:


> ..no. I keep meaning to take a sample to mark at MHB but haven't yet. Anyone in the newcastle area wanna come and help me out?


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## TSMill (21/12/13)

Technically not astringency, but any chance your water is high in chlorine/chloramine? Also I'd confirm mash pH is in the right ballpark, agree proper pH is not a fix-all.


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## acarey (21/12/13)

Adr_0 said:


> Not sure... Are there ANY times during your brew that you could be boiling the grain husks? See anything floating around, or on the bottom once you transfer? Any holes in the bag? Burn marks?


not really, I never apply heat anymore with grain in the urn. No scorch marks on the bag etc


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## Camo6 (21/12/13)

Adr_0 said:


> acarey no-chills... can't see how this is relevant to astringency.
> 
> exposed element urn has its drawbacks though...


Acarey also mentions 'super bitter' so astringency may not be his problem, it might just be he's extracting more IBU's than planned through NC.

I agree with BBB in that you should have another brewer taste your brews to evaluate. I used to mash out to 78C and squeeze bujeesus out of the bag when BIABing. I used an IC and have never NC FWIW.

I'm no beer judge but from what I know, astringency is like sucking on a tea bag and has a dry mouthfeel like banana peel. Is this what you're getting?


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/12/13)

Tannins normaly come out at around 88*c. 

Hard water, as in bore water, will make a beer taste bitter, but not in a hop bitternes kind of way. More of a mineral bitterness. 

Whithout more info on your recipies, water etc its hard to give an answer


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## acarey (21/12/13)

bradsbrew said:


> What was your process for that recipe.


heat to strike temp (can't remember exactly, whatever brew mate told me). Add grain, stir, cover and insulate, 60 min mash.
remove bag and drain into a bucket. add run off to urn. boil 90 minutes. Brew brite @ 15. Cover and wait 30 minutes, whirlpool and wait 30 minutes, transfer to no chill cube.


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## Bribie G (21/12/13)

Mark will sort you out, He's Mr Mash and Mr Chemistry.


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## Adr_0 (21/12/13)

Camo6 said:


> Acarey also mentions 'super bitter' so astringency may not be his problem, it might just be he's extracting more IBU's than planned through NC.
> 
> I agree with BBB in that you should have another brewer taste your brews to evaluate. I used to mash out to 78C and squeeze bujeesus out of the bag when BIABing. I used an IC and have never NC FWIW.
> 
> I'm no beer judge but from what I know, astringency is like sucking on a tea bag and has a dry mouthfeel like banana peel. Is this what you're getting?


Ah yeah, good point. What do you typically do with no chill recipes, add 15min to each of the boil times in the software and knock the hops back to compensate?


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## Logman (21/12/13)

Camo6 said:


> Acarey also mentions 'super bitter' so astringency may not be his problem, it might just be he's extracting more IBU's than planned through NC.


What he said ^^^^. I just kept cutting back further and further until I liked the taste.


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## bradsbrew (21/12/13)

So you do your 1 minute hop edition then let sit for 30 minutes then whirlpool then let it sit another 30 minutes? if so there is your problem IMO, you have had your bittering hops in for 2 hours and your 1 minute in for 61 minutes.
I no chill pretty much 100% of the time, every now and then in summer, I will throw the cubes in the pool and have a swim with them for an hour or so then throw them in the fermeezer.(slow chill)

I had problems early on with beers being overly bitter. My process is now

bittering edition is no earlier than 45Min from end of boil.
Any other editions are done between 20 and 0 minutes from the flame out.
I turn the heat off the kettle, then add my zero edition/flame out hops.
Give it a good whirlpool for 2 minutes.
Put the lid on then then drain to cubes 15 to 20 minutes later.

Cheers


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## Adr_0 (21/12/13)

bradsbrew said:


> So you do your 1 minute hop edition then let sit for 30 minutes then whirlpool then let it sit another 30 minutes? if so there is your problem IMO, you have had your bittering hops in for 2 hours and your 1 minute in for 61 minutes.
> I no chill pretty much 100% of the time, every now and then in summer, I will throw the cubes in the pool and *have a swim with them for an hour or so* then throw them in the fermeezer.(slow chill)
> 
> I had problems early on with beers being overly bitter. My process is now
> ...


Bust out 2.5km while your cubes are chilling? Sounds good to me...

Looking at the chunk of NS being added from 20-min to 'flameout', that sounds great if you are going to IC or run through a plate chiller... but that would be horrifically bitter if you let it sit around 80-100°C for a further hour or so. Ouch.


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/12/13)

bradsbrew said:


> I will throw the cubes in the pool and have a swim with them for an hour or so


That is so cute. 

Personally I like to see them in their natural environment.




But getting back to No Chill. It will increase your bitternes, but you did say that you have reduced your hop amounts. So that shouldnt be the prob


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## acarey (21/12/13)

The latest one I have (crash chilling for 2 days at the moment) to try and fix the problem is the same as above except the hops are as follows:

5gm neslon @ 20
16g nelson @ 10
30g nelson @ 1

same grain bill.

should have been 20 IBU according to brew mate no chill adjusted

Had the same taste post boil but I can't speak for the finished beer (yet). I''l go keg it now and report back, but it still had a bit of the taste in my gravity samples


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/12/13)

Pre ferm samples will taste rather bitter. A lot more bitter then the finished ber


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## roverfj1200 (21/12/13)

Will Mate I'm not a seasoned beer maker but will pop my 2 cents in. I have made 20 so BIAB no chill brews.

The recipe you posted has only base malt and wheat. You have no sweetness to off set the hops. Add say 200g of BB caramalt.

I say this as I have been trying to find balance in my beers.

No chill.... Try this. I found it hard to get IBU's right with no chill. I now get the cube in to the pool to chill ASAP. If you have no pool do some single addition beers like.

4kg pale malt
200g BB caramalt
200g wheat.
20g Centennial @60
65 mash for 90 min
use US05 at 18

With no late hopping you bitterness will not run away on you. You can FWH to smooth this one out.

Even 200g of Munich 1 will throw the balance of this beer out. Build on the basics to learn what adds what to your beer.
I started making single addition beers to see what each hop brings to the bittering.

Yeast.. Work with yeasts you can control. Yeast can add some weird flavours to your beer if not treated right .

Hope this helps

Cheers


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## HBHB (21/12/13)

Check out to see if you have a local brew club in the area. If so, they may have a few members to assist with having a taste and pin pointing the issue. What's bitterness to one person, may be perceived differently to another (like as in astringency). If you're a customer of a decent HBS locally, drop by with a bottle and try to get them to appraise what's going on. 

At this point, it's just guesswork.

Martin


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/12/13)

Are you only using Nelson Savignon...

It can be a bit " out there " taste wise if you are not use to it


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## bradsbrew (21/12/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> That is so cute.
> 
> Personally I like to see them in their natural environment.
> 
> ...


Stu, even if he has adjusted his hops and allowed for no chill. I would think that the no chill calc would still be way out if he has left his flame out addition sitting in the wort for 1 hour?


Oh and when I say take them for a swim, I mean sit in the pool with them whilst drinking their predecessor and talking to them :blink: 

Cheers


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/12/13)

bradsbrew said:


> Stu, even if he has adjusted his hops and allowed for no chill. I would think that the no chill calc would still be way out if he has left his flame out addition sitting in the wort for 1 hour?


Good point. 

Looking at the hop utilisation chart, your going from roughly 5% @1m to about 30-35%. @ 60min


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## Judanero (21/12/13)

HBHB said:


> Check out to see if you have a local brew club in the area. If so, they may have a few members to assist with having a taste and pin pointing the issue. What's bitterness to one person, may be perceived differently to another (like as in astringency). If you're a customer of a decent HBS locally, drop by with a bottle and try to get them to appraise what's going on.
> 
> At this point, it's just guesswork.
> 
> Martin


^ Martin has hit it on the head, HUB (Hunter United Brewers) meets every third Friday of the month at Hamilton North bowlo ~1800 start, and Mark would be a pretty reliable authority on anything brew related... So dropping him a bottle of your finest is also an option.

cheers


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## JDW81 (21/12/13)

It sounds like you're over egging the custard so to speak and your hops are giving you way more bitterness than anticipated. Have you tried making a simple beer with a single 60 minute hop addition (hefeweien, coopers sparkling) to see if your described bitterness astringency is still present?

Also, drop one in to MHB or a brew club meeting and see what other reckon.

FWIW when I no chill beers with a stack of late hops I knock off 15 minutes from all boil times and anything under 15 minutes gets a mini boil after the cube has cooled. Works a treat every time.

JD.


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## acarey (22/12/13)

Righto. Thanks all for your input. Next thing I do is going to be with a single 60 minute addition and see if that sorts my problem out. Assuming it does, I'll then start getting more complex. Thanks heaps guys


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## carpedaym (22/12/13)

Just to chip in late, my latest was with Nelson and I also perceived it as slightly astringent. It was extract and steeping grains to about 40ibu... we could both be picking up the Nelson style of bitterness in the same way


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## acarey (22/12/13)

carpedaym said:


> Just to chip in late, my latest was with Nelson and I also perceived it as slightly astringent. It was extract and steeping grains to about 40ibu... we could both be picking up the Nelson style of bitterness in the same way



Thanks carpedaym, but this issue has been happening to me regardless of hop variety. The Nelson ones were just the latest.

Looking back over my notes though, it seems to be an issue with brews containing late hop additions.

Edit: thanks to the guys who posted on this thread for the heads up.


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## Adr_0 (22/12/13)

another way to resolve this to get your hop times bang on:
http://www.theaquariumshop.com.au/shopexd.asp?id=3961&name=Aqua%20Zonic%20Evo%20Submersible%20Water%20Pump%20%205%20-%20(3000%20lph)
+
http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=717 or
http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/search/7CHILLER+BR+PLATE+20 or
+
http://www.bunnings.com.au/maxipail-20l-plastic-pail-with-lid_p4475875
http://www.bunnings.com.au/clamp-hose-fit-sontax-12-22mm-butterfly-screw-hsb022_p3100015
+
http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4378

Half fill your bucket with water + StarSan and backflush, then hook up properly and chuck in ice, then dissolve PBW and back flush again.


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## carpedaym (22/12/13)

acarey said:


> Thanks carpedaym, but this issue has been happening to me regardless of hop variety.


Ahh well, just a thought.

I recently did a test boil to see if my stovetop could handle full volume. For shits and giggles I jotted down some temperatures as the 20-odd L of water cooled. 3 hours after K/O it was still sitting at 80c. Think of the isomerisation!

I'll be making use of the argon method or similar for my late hop additions once I get brewing again.


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## Logman (22/12/13)

Ha ha, that's funny, I've got a post written up suggesting to try the argon method and carpedaym's reply came up, here it was....

You could also do a brew with the *argon method* - that would tell you a lot. Cut the bittering addition time/amount right back in stage one and do all of the other hops in stage two. If that works you don't necessarily have to do it that way every time, but you'll know it's hops/no chill related.


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## RdeVjun (22/12/13)

Definitely drop a bottle in to MHB or an experienced brewer as soon as you can.

Doing a batch with a single early bittering addition should eliminate the variability that no- chill is renowned for, particularly with high- AA% varieties (nb. I don't see that in your recipe, it *must* be accounted for, moreso for late additions and no- chill). I would definitely be using an orthodox bittering hops variety such as Magnum, Northern Brewer or Chinook instead of Nelson Sauvin which has a reputation for throwing peculiar characteristics which are not to everyone's liking. And as per the great minds above, use the argon method if you really must have the late hops character.

Finally, and its probably an outside chance, we haven't talked much about your mash yet, is it possible that your thermometer isn't correct? If it is reading higher than actual temperature, then your mash temperature will be too low and result in some dryness, while you're already mashing low-ish (65C) to begin with, so perhaps check that.
Low mashing should tend towards a drier beer with higher fermentability, if the bitterness isn't balanced accordingly then this could be the reason you're getting an over- bittered or astringent sensation, particularly with low crystal malt levels.
What's the FG been, as expected? Generally speaking, if regularly under say 1.010 then I'd be looking at the mash temperature and or specialty/ crystal grain additions where appropriate. The first thing I would do is pop your thermometer in some boiling water and you should get an idea straight away (the sample water must be boiling, i.e. not just hot water from a boiled kettle).


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## slcmorro (22/12/13)

acarey said:


> Cover and wait 30 minutes


Are you covering your urn while you're boiling the wort?


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## acarey (22/12/13)

slcmorro said:


> Are you covering your urn while you're boiling the wort?


nope


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## argon (22/12/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Tannins normaly come out at around 88*c.



Yeah I would check your thermometer. You'd be surprised how far out it may be. Get yourself a good mercury or preferably a spirit thermometer to check against. Your assumed mash may be way out.


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## acarey (22/12/13)

RdeVjun said:


> Definitely drop a bottle in to MHB or an experienced brewer as soon as you can.
> 
> Doing a batch with a single early bittering addition should eliminate the variability that no- chill is renowned for, particularly with high- AA% varieties (nb. I don't see that in your recipe, it *must* be accounted for, moreso for late additions and no- chill). I would definitely be using an orthodox bittering hops variety such as Magnum, Northern Brewer or Chinook instead of Nelson Sauvin which has a reputation for throwing peculiar characteristics which are not to everyone's liking. And as per the great minds above, use the argon method if you really must have the late hops character.
> 
> ...


Yeah, thermometer is spot on.

FG is always as expected. I will look at adding speciality malts to balance the bitterness.

My intent with these was to have a dry beer with nice fruitiness kinda like a stone and wood pacific ale (obviously with different hops)


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## primusbrew (22/12/13)

Are you transferring any of the hop material to the cube? I used to dump the entire contents of the kettle into the cube, hot break, hops and all. Since I stopped doing this, now I only transfer clear wort across, I get a much cleaner bitterness. I feel like the longer the hops sit in the wort the more undesirable flavour a leach out. 

Never done a side by side so not sure if this is really happening. Just my 2c


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## acarey (22/12/13)

primusbrew said:


> Are you transferring any of the hop material to the cube?


I was, but that was one of the things I cut out.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (22/12/13)

Hi Acarey I'm fairly new to this hobby. I don't post much bc I've nothing to add. In this case I understand your problem. When I started I didn't have any way to cool my wort. So I used to leave it in the 50lt pot with the lid on over nite to cool. This had many problems. One of which was the hoop addition adding excess bitterness. As stated bf wort sitting in a stainless pot wasn't helping (too hot for too long) with the bitterness. Now I use cubes but still do this. Very little hop addition to the wort when on the boil ([email protected] nd flameout).I run 3 liters through the used grain bill and reserve for the next day or when I'm ready to pitch the yeast. Normally the next day I boil this 3 liters for my 15-10-5-0 minute hop additions. This gives me a opportunity to control the favors derived for the hops. It's a little more work but very simple. Horses for courses but it works for me.


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## gordo_t (23/12/13)

JDW81 said:


> It sounds like you're over egging the custard so to speak and your hops are giving you way more bitterness than anticipated. Have you tried making a simple beer with a single 60 minute hop addition (hefeweien, coopers sparkling) to see if your described bitterness astringency is still present?
> 
> Also, drop one in to MHB or a brew club meeting and see what other reckon.
> 
> ...


What if you use a HOP sock when BIABing?
Because the hops are pretty much separated from the wort when transferred to No Chill container does this mean they can no longer be adding to bittereness?

(I too am getting an over bitter taste with my ales, so interested to find out what the OP's problem ends up being - i'm already adjusting hop times by 20 minutes)


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## fletcher (23/12/13)

G_T_G said:


> What if you use a HOP sock when BIABing?
> Because the hops are pretty much separated from the wort when transferred to No Chill container does this mean they can no longer be adding to bittereness?
> 
> (I too am getting an over bitter taste with my ales, so interested to find out what the OP's problem ends up being - i'm already adjusting hop times by 20 minutes)


even with a hop sock, the hop oils contribute to the bitterness if the temp of the wort is above 80 degrees +/-.

with no-chill there is no way to guarantee the exact hop additions and bitterness. i believe that the 15/20 minute adjustment is an educated estimate.

please please someone correct me if i'm wrong though


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## Bada Bing Brewery (23/12/13)

G_T_G
Some higher AA hops (nelson & galaxy) can give a really harsh bitterness. I know from experience with those two particular hops..........
I have been bittering with lower AA hops of late (EKG, Mt Hood) - yes takes more hops but the bitterness is much smoother IMHO ....
Cheers
BBB


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## 1974Alby (9/1/14)

any updates??/how did the single addition brew turn out?....I have experienced over-bittering with late hop additions (Im also a No Chiller)...espsecially when using 20g- 30g late. Now I just add a very small late addition of 5g - 10 g...doesnt look like an impressive amount of hops to add in,.. but the beer turns out tasty enough.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (9/1/14)

+1 I add 10/20g of hops to the boil with ten min left on the boil. If I want big hop punch I do a stove top 15-10-5-0 addition. Add this to the fermenter then top up with cubed no chill wort. Done deal.


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## Goose (9/1/14)

It seems that water quality and mash pH covered here which are common culprits that contribute to astringency, and I am presuming your untreated tapwater has no discernible difference in taste to a control such as a bottle of distilled water.

I am not sure if mentioned above and apologies if I missed it but even a mild bacterial infection or a taint of wild yeast can cause these flavours. It is possible you have a recurring infection somewhere in your process despite your most stringent sanitation efforts. You would be surprised where this evil can lurk and survive, even professional breweries can spend months tracking down the cause.

This is where my money is on...


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## acarey (9/1/14)

HI All,

Cheers for the replies and interest! I love the AHB community.

Anyways, the brew I did with only late additions worked a treat without the astringency, which I now believe was just 'super bitterness'. I recon that the fact that I whirlpool and settle for an hour after the boil finishes, renders the late timed hop additions as pointless anyway. From what I've read (on this thread and in other places), there is a max out of the amount of bitterness that can be extracted anyway.

Looking back through my notes (should have done earlier) with my one track 'astringency' mindset removed, I can see that all the single addition brews I have done turned out ok. Its just that the majority of my brews have contained multiple hop additions throughout that have had this issue.

......Anyways, I've built myself an immersion chiller and plan to use it for the first time on friday with an imperial IPA





I'll let everyone know how that goes.

Edit: all conclusions that I've come to were due to help provided in this thread. So thanks again!


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## fletcher (9/1/14)

acarey said:


> HI All, Cheers for the replies and interest! I love the AHB community. Anyways, the brew I did with only late additions worked a treat without the astringency, which I now believe was just 'super bitterness'. I recon that the fact that I whirlpool and settle for an hour after the boil finishes, renders the late timed hop additions as pointless anyway. From what I've read (on this thread and in other places), there is a max out of the amount of bitterness that can be extracted anyway. Looking back through my notes (should have done earlier) with my one track 'astringency' mindset removed, I can see that all the single addition brews I have done turned out ok. Its just that the majority of my brews have contained multiple hop additions throughout that have had this issue. ......Anyways, I've built myself an immersion chiller and plan to use it for the first time on friday with an imperial IPA
> 
> 
> 
> 09-01-2014 1-39-46 PM.jpg I'll let everyone know how that goes. Edit: all conclusions that I've come to were due to help provided in this thread. So thanks again!



well done mate. good to see you sorted it out. i've seen the 15 minute thing apply on here for no-chilling and i also bought a chiller which i've used now to good success. good cos then you know the IBU and aren't guessing.


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## DAC (9/1/14)

fletcher said:


> well done mate. good to see you sorted it out. i've seen the 15 minute thing apply on here for no-chilling and i also bought a chiller which i've used now to good success. good cos then you know the IBU and aren't guessing.


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## DAC (9/1/14)

Was wondering how many meters of copper u used ? Looks neat.
Thinking if doing one but shorter n wider to suit my pot.


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## gordo_t (9/1/14)

acarey said:


> HI All, Cheers for the replies and interest! I love the AHB community. Anyways, the brew I did with only late additions worked a treat without the astringency, which I now believe was just 'super bitterness'. I recon that the fact that I whirlpool and settle for an hour after the boil finishes, renders the late timed hop additions as pointless anyway. From what I've read (on this thread and in other places), there is a max out of the amount of bitterness that can be extracted anyway. Looking back through my notes (should have done earlier) with my one track 'astringency' mindset removed, I can see that all the single addition brews I have done turned out ok. Its just that the majority of my brews have contained multiple hop additions throughout that have had this issue. ......Anyways, I've built myself an immersion chiller and plan to use it for the first time on friday with an imperial IPA
> 
> 
> 
> 09-01-2014 1-39-46 PM.jpg I'll let everyone know how that goes. Edit: all conclusions that I've come to were due to help provided in this thread. So thanks again!



When you say "did with only late additions" do you mean the only hops added to brew where in the last 20 minutes or so?
What was your HOP schedule for the latest successful brew?


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## acarey (9/1/14)

DAC said:


> Was wondering how many meters of copper u used ? Looks neat. Thinking if doing one but shorter n wider to suit my pot.


18m of copper bought from Bunnings for $99. I coiled it around a keg and did the right angles with a pipe bender $39 also from bunnings which was carefully repackaged and returned for a refund 30 minutes after purchase h34r:


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## acarey (9/1/14)

G_T_G said:


> When you say "did with only late additions" do you mean the only hops added to brew where in the last 20 minutes or so?
> What was your HOP schedule for the latest successful brew?


That is correct. schedule as follows:

5gm neslon @ 20
16g nelson @ 10
30g nelson @ 1

My theory is that after waiting an hour for settling and whirlpool, this turned into the equivalent of one 'early' bitterness addition.

In future I'll only no-chill single hop addition brews.


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## gordo_t (9/1/14)

Interesting, I'd better give this a whirl.


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## CosmicBertie (10/1/14)

I use a hopsock and remove it after boiling. For hop additions at or after flame out, i empty the hop sock and drop in the aroma hops for 10mins. You could use this method for no-chilling too.


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## 1974Alby (10/1/14)

My understanding is that even if you remove the hop material using a hopsock, once the hops hit the hot water the oils will dissipate into the hot wort and will therefore continue to add bitterness beyond the removal of the remaining vegetative matter...this bittering effect will stop once you cool the wort,...so when no chilling, even a 5 minute addition will act like a 60 min addition (by which time it has pretty much contibuted its maximum bitterness) as it takes ages for the wort to sufficently cool.


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## pist (13/1/14)

It could me the ns hops itself that you dont like...as others have said it can be in your face...

Are you having the same problem using other hops?


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## acarey (13/1/14)

pist said:


> It could me the ns hops itself that you dont like...as others have said it can be in your face...
> 
> Are you having the same problem using other hops?



Yeah I was getting it with a lot of different beers. I narrowed it down to late hop additions combined with no chilling. 

I've had a bad ass IIPA in the fermenter for the last 4 days which I used an immersion chiller to cool that tastes very promising. It's a recipe that I have previously had the problem with so should be a good comparison.


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## acarey (13/1/14)

pist said:


> It could me the ns hops itself that you dont like...as others have said it can be in your face...
> 
> Are you having the same problem using other hops?



Yeah I was getting it with a lot of different beers. I narrowed it down to late hop additions combined with no chilling. 

I've had a bad ass IIPA in the fermenter for the last 4 days which I used an immersion chiller to cool that tastes very promising. It's a recipe that I have previously had the problem with so should be a good comparison.


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## mark0 (14/1/14)

My experience is that 10-15min is the latest hop addition you can manage with no-chill. I do this by adding hops straight to the empty cube then hot wort is poured over the top. Anything later than 10-15min needs to be by the argon method or dry hopped.

I gave up on the argon method for most beers, mainly due to difficulty getting the wort out of large quantities of hops in a small plunger. Alternately, just throw the hops in with the wort. (Sure to get some passionate responses, but I couldn't taste the difference fermenting on hops and/or trub or not)

Also, if you are using BrewMate, check the BU:GU ratio (0.6-0.8 as a ballpark) which gives the balance of bitterness and sweetness.


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## acarey (20/1/14)

So the results are in (almost). I've just, yesterday, set the old keezer to crash chill mode on my DIPA. This is the first brew I've done with the new immersion chiller. Apart from the 60 minute bittering addition, it had a 10 minute addition of about 150g.

Just had a sneaky taste and TA DA! no unwanted bitterness. I'm super stoked! I'll let it chill until thursday then its keg and carb time ready for friday night.

Thanks again to all who chimed in on this thread. I never would have fixed it without you :kooi:


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## acarey (21/1/14)

And.... The result. Can't see too much bitterness there. Bit cloudy but it's just been 'Ross method'ed

Tastes good






Edit: obviously I know you can't see bitterness


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## Adr_0 (17/2/14)

nice job. glad to hear you resolved it... now think of all those great beers to come. 

:beerbang:


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