# No Chill



## luvbeer (19/7/12)

Hi there,

Just wanted to get some experienced opinions on no chill brewing. It's probably been spoken about before though i have had trouble finding threads. I have just started experimenting with this method whilst keeping a close eye on the hop addition times and have had good results so far, though i was specifically interested in the healthy aging of the beers(good or bad) in comparison to conventional chilling. Seems too good to be true!?


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## Wolfy (19/7/12)

luvbeer said:


> i was specifically interested in the healthy aging of the beers(good or bad) in comparison to conventional chilling.


It's only wort until you pitch yeast and it becomes beer.
Are you asking about how long you can keep the wort in the no-chill container, how the hops change compared to conventional chilling, or something else?


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## luvbeer (19/7/12)

Wolfy said:


> It's only wort until you pitch yeast and it becomes beer.
> Are you asking about how long you can keep the wort in the no-chill container, how the hops change compared to conventional chilling, or something else?



Hi, thanks
how long of life in cube, does temp of wort storage matter, do hops fade faster in hoppy beers, is it more likely to spoil faster, do the hops change in the later additions(aroma hop additions), is it better or just easier? thanks


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## WarmBeer (19/7/12)

There was a recent Basic Brewing Radio episode (5th July 2012) where a couple of homebrewers had brewed the same beer, cubed half and chilled the other half.

In a blind-triangle tasting test, none of the judges (admittedly, I don't know their judging credentials) could tell the difference with any statistical significance.


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## Cortez The Killer (19/7/12)

luvbeer said:


> how long of life in cube, does temp of wort storage matter, do hops fade faster in hoppy beers, is it more likely to spoil faster, do the hops change in the later additions(aroma hop additions), is it better or just easier?



Some people have kept wort sealed in a cube for 12 months +

I haven't read anything to say what effect storage temp has but I would not be exposing my cubes to extreme temps

I've not experienced any spoilage in my beers

My typical hopping schedule is 60min, 10min and a flameout addition then I give it a good stir and let sit for 5-10 min before transferring to cube - this has really improved the hop presence in my beers

I was experimenting with hops straight into the cube but was getting grassy flavours 

You can make awesome beers by chilling and by no chilling 

Though you must expect some effect on the hops from no chilling as compared to chilling and as such you will need to compensate, be it with a hop tea or increasing the aroma addition etc

I personally use no chill for the convenience

Cheers


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## Bribie G (19/7/12)

I hope RdeVjun isn't reading this but last October we did a brew day - Russian Imperial Stout - and it's still in the cube.    

I'll get round to pitching it soon, I promise. I expect it's as good, if not better, than the day it was cubed. 

I normally pitch within a couple of days, but have kept (and eventually pitched) worts for up to 2 months. After all, Fresh Wort Kits are just no chill worts and keep for a year or more.


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## Wolfy (19/7/12)

luvbeer said:


> how long of life in cube, does temp of wort storage matter, do hops fade faster in hoppy beers, is it more likely to spoil faster, do the hops change in the later additions(aroma hop additions), is it better or just easier? thanks


I don't think you'll much of any scientific or published answers to most your questions, because storing unfermented wort is simply not feasible or economic for a commercial brewery. The shelf-life of fresh-wort-kits should give you some idea on how long it's possible to store it, however I'm sure that home brewers would suggest it could be kept longer and is likely better when used fresher. So with most answers to your questions, they're going to be subjective.

It's cheap because you do not need to buy a wort-cooler and its easy because all you have to do is fill the cube full and squeeze out the air, it's also convenient because you don't have to ferment the wort right after brewing it. Those factors alone might make it 'better' and 'easier' for some home brewers. But that does not make it 'easier' than chilling beer directly into the fermentor and being able to pitch yeast and ferment immediately and it does not make it 'better' than chilling the wort quickly and having the volatile hop aromas and flavours 'fixed' into the beer (without having to worry or adjust things for how they might change in the hot-cube)

Many would also argue that quickly chilling the beer produces (better) cold break and that is something that can help produce 'better' beer, however equally, some will suggest that is not relevant and their no-chill beer is just as good (or better).


Bribie G said:


> After all, Fresh Wort Kits are just no chill worts and keep for a year or more.


I was curious about that, do they no-chill FWK or are they chilled before cubing?


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## Gavo (19/7/12)

Bribie G said:


> I hope RdeVjun isn't reading this but last October we did a brew day - Russian Imperial Stout - and it's still in the cube.
> 
> I'll get round to pitching it soon, I promise. I expect it's as good, if not better, than the day it was cubed.
> 
> I normally pitch within a couple of days, but have kept (and eventually pitched) worts for up to 2 months. After all, Fresh Wort Kits are just no chill worts and keep for a year or more.



I did something similar to this, I had a double batch of Oktoberfest I brewed July last year. One I fermented straight away and the other I fermented out February this year; both were good if not the same.
I also have a chiller and use both methods depending on yeast availability and if I have the wort and time to make a starter.


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## Bribie G (19/7/12)

Wolfy said:


> snip
> I was curious about that, do they no-chill FWK or are they chilled before cubing?



I expect Ross, the current king of FWK would be able to advise.


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## Rowy (19/7/12)

Bribie G said:


> I expect Ross, the current king of FWK would be able to advise.




I expect that Ralph will be keen to provide advice on getting that RIS out into the pishab and throwing some yeasties in!


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## bradsbrew (19/7/12)

Bribie G said:


> I expect Ross, the current king of FWK would be able to advise.


They are no chill.


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## Florian (19/7/12)

Wolfy said:


> I was curious about that, do they no-chill FWK or are they chilled before cubing?



Yep, that's what they do, at least down at Bacchus Brewing. I'm sure all others do the same. I think if you're transferring chilled wort you'd be asking for trouble, even if you expell _all_ air. You certainly wouldn't have a use by of two years.

EDIT: beaten by a few...


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## manticle (19/7/12)

luvbeer said:


> It's probably been spoken about before though i have had trouble finding threads.



Really?

Not having a go - just surprised. It's been discussed, sometimes dispassionately, sometimes passionately many times here before.

Neither method is better per se - they are just different.

I NC pretty much exclusively but I have tried a side by side brew - half cubed, half plate chilled of a recipe I am familiar with. Quite a hoppy one so I could discern what effect it might have for my own palate.

Definitely not a conclusive experiment in terms of its design but I and other brewers in blind tasting (not triangle and they did know one was NC and one chilled - just not which) found distinct differences in bittering, flavour and aroma. Neither was better - both were tasty beers but the differences were there. NC was more bitter but strangely was picked as having better hop aroma. I designed the recipe around NC so if I were to start chilling, I would actually up the bittering to match the NC.

Some people alter their hop addditions (amounts and/or timing). I don't but as I design all my own recipes and I no-chill, I don't need to. IBU for HB is theoretical anyway so I need to know what I like.

For me it's about convenience and water saving mainly. I also like the fact that I can make a starter from the same wort and pitch when it's ready. If something goes wong with the starter, I can hold off pitching.

I have bought a plate chiller so that I can truly sit on the fence - just not set it up yet. Intend to chill some and NC others.

I don't keep wort for a long time so I can't answer that. FWK as suggested has a long shelf life. I brewed a Rochefort 10 homage with Vitalstatistix last August and my half has been bulk aging in a demijohn since it hit FG. His is still in the cube so it will be interesting to compare if I have any left by the time his is aged and bottled.

Another advantage is communal brewing - for example we will brew 7 or 8 cubes Saturday week at the Vic Case swap. Seal her up and each contributing person gets to take one away to ferment at home.


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## Bribie G (19/7/12)

Apart from the simplicity, a big advantage of no-chilling is that it "decouples" the brew day from the need to pitch the brew immediately. 

So you can brew like a maniac and build up a stash of wort cubes, then ferment at your leisure. 

However this is turning into YET another "why no chill" thread. 

Nuff said.


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## glenwal (19/7/12)

luvbeer said:


> It's probably been spoken about before though i have had trouble finding threads.



this should have everything you need, and answer all your questions

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Awww.aussiehome...no+chill+better


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## Crusty (19/7/12)

Bribie G said:


> Apart from the simplicity, a big advantage of no-chilling is that it "decouples" the brew day from the need to pitch the brew immediately.
> 
> So you can brew like a maniac and build up a stash of wort cubes, then ferment at your leisure.
> 
> ...



I like the simplicity & the leisurely approach of fermenting when I feel like doing so.
It's really good to end the brew day with filling the cube & the days done. Ferment the next day, week, month or whenever you feel like it.


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## stux (19/7/12)

Wolfy said:


> I don't think you'll much of any scientific or published answers to most your questions, because storing unfermented wort is simply not feasible or economic for a commercial brewery. The shelf-life of fresh-wort-kits should give you some idea on how long it's possible to store it, however I'm sure that home brewers would suggest it could be kept longer and is likely better when used fresher. So with most answers to your questions, they're going to be subjective.
> 
> It's cheap because you do not need to buy a wort-cooler and its easy because all you have to do is fill the cube full and squeeze out the air, it's also convenient because you don't have to ferment the wort right after brewing it. Those factors alone might make it 'better' and 'easier' for some home brewers. But that does not make it 'easier' than chilling beer directly into the fermentor and being able to pitch yeast and ferment immediately and it does not make it 'better' than chilling the wort quickly and having the volatile hop aromas and flavours 'fixed' into the beer (without having to worry or adjust things for how they might change in the hot-cube)
> 
> ...



They are filled hot.

They really are just no-chill worts.

Interestingly, I've fermented a the 2nd cube of a double batch NC wort 12 months after the first cube, and 14 months after the brew day, and I swear it was awesomer than the original! Just seemed smoother...

But who's to tell. 

I then did a fresh batch the next month of the same recipe and was quite happy with the consistency compared to the earlier brew, considering the first one was made on different equipment


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## RdeVjun (19/7/12)

Bribie G said:


> I hope RdeVjun isn't reading this but last October we did a brew day - Russian Imperial Stout - and it's still in the cube.
> 
> I'll get round to pitching it soon, I promise. I expect it's as good, if not better, than the day it was cubed.
> 
> I normally pitch within a couple of days, but have kept (and eventually pitched) worts for up to 2 months. After all, Fresh Wort Kits are just no chill worts and keep for a year or more.


I remember that brewday well Bribie! I have a few longer- term cubed worts myself now, so I did take home something from the day. Expecting the three months in storage will do nothing at all negative to the few bitters I have set aside, waiting for me to finally sort my fermenting fridge out after the move(s).


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## wakkatoo (19/7/12)

Bribie G said:


> So you can brew like a maniac and build up a stash of wort cubes, then ferment at your leisure



Yep, that's me. Brewed once a week for the past 6 weeks. Only have 1 temp controlled fridge so the cubes sit there waiting their turn. Have 1 more brew to do then take a break for a while. Other hobbies need my attention: veggie garden, bees, hops, orchard!!


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## Thirsty Boy (20/7/12)

No chill cubes will of course age - is that age going to be good "aging" or bad "getting old" ... question really?

Things will oxidise, they must - hop bittering products will fall out of solution, they must - will old wort be different to new wort, it must.

Better or worse? who knows.

If you want your wort to maintain as closely as possible the condition it was in when you put it in the cube, store it as cold and as dark as you can.


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## mje1980 (20/7/12)

No chilling also has a viagra like affect, the missus will be happy!


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## Mike L'Itorus (20/7/12)

Bribie G said:


> Apart from the simplicity, a big advantage of no-chilling is that it "decouples" the brew day from the need to pitch the brew immediately.
> 
> So you can brew like a maniac and build up a stash of wort cubes, then ferment at your leisure.



In a nutshell. It also depends on what you brew, as well as when you brew. Effects on _late _hopping? Imho, yes. Less aroma and flavour. On Bitternes? Or, more correctly, _percieved _bitterness? This one is still up for debate; but I've discussed it at length with a chill only hophead (_very _experienced) brewer (also judge  ), and we agree that any possible issue is very likely to be overrated in ome corners. 

I've brewed both ways. Granted, most of my beers are esentially _malt _forward. Most, _not _all. I NC for the most part. Why? Ease. As mentioned, you can pitch at leisure. My ferment fridge can hold 2 x 23L fermenters. My rig output is also 2x 23L. So, by no-chilling, I can ferment 2 different beers, side by side (assuming that the yeast are in the same temp range), which means that I can have 2 different beers (sometimes _very _different) on tap at the same time. It also means that I can go months on end without brewing, but still have beer available.  

If I was doing something that was hop flavour/aroma forward eg APA, I would _probably _chill. Probably, not necessarily. Dry hop, or hop tea at pitching is always an option....

FWIW....additions of 5-7%AA hops @ 20 or 15 min, in the region of 0.5g/L-0.75g/L make 4/5ths of SFA difference to NC beers vs chilled, imo. Been there, done that.


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## kymba (20/7/12)

can you get skunking in cubes? my cubes get a bit of light on them whenever i open the garage door (not direct sunlight though)


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## Thirsty Boy (20/7/12)

Its possible I guess to get a bit of lightstrike in cubes. It wont be a "big" issue though because the lightstrike chemical reaction requires riboflavin to be present and there is hardly any in wort, it mainly comes from yeast.

I wouldn't worry about a cube getting "a bit of light" - but personally wouldn't let them sit in full sun, and if you are letting them sit for extended periods, I'd keep them in a dim and preferably dark place. Skunking isn't the only aging reaction that light can help along.


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## kymba (20/7/12)

thanks TB. might pop a towel over them anyway


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## bum (20/7/12)

UVs will also make the cube itself brittle.


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## Jay Cee (20/7/12)

[quote name='Mike L'Itorus' post='936648' date='Jul 20 2012, 12:20 PM']If I was doing something that was hop flavour/aroma forward eg APA, I would _probably _chill. Probably, not necessarily. Dry hop, or hop tea at pitching is always an option....[/quote]

If my brews require additions lower than 20 minutes, I'll decant a couple of litres from the cube, do a stovetop boil with hops, then pour into the fermenter when draining the rest of the cube. I assume its not perfect for utilisation but still better than nothing.


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## Housecat (20/7/12)

kymba said:


> can you get skunking in cubes? my cubes get a bit of light on them whenever i open the garage door (not direct sunlight though)



I keep my cubes in the middle of my double shed under a few old doulbe sheets. I have had them sit there for at least 9 months prior to brewing them and have not noticed any off flavours or faults in the finished product. 

Also, I currently have 2 cubes I am purposely aging for 2 years. One is an APA Fat Yak style and the other is a Coopers PA. I am doing this to see if there is any big difference between aging 2 different styles of beer. I am thinking of putting a Porter or stout in with them to see how that one goes too.

HC


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## Mike L'Itorus (21/7/12)

Jay Cee said:


> If my brews require additions lower than 20 minutes, I'll decant a couple of litres from the cube, do a stovetop boil with hops, then pour into the fermenter when draining the rest of the cube. I assume its not perfect for utilisation but still better than nothing.



I know a few brewers who do this, as well. Unless the hop additions in this late boil were ginormous, I don't see it drastically effecting things adversely. Although never done it myself, as have never really had the need.


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## Jay Cee (21/7/12)

Mike L said:


> Utilisation was the wrong term, I agree that there's an immaterial amount if isomerisation at late addition stage, so any lost IBU points is irrelevant. To elaborate on my minor concerns with the stovetop tek, a consideration might be made concerning times. Newtonian physics isn't my strong suit, but I imagine that (for example) a flameout addition over 2 litres will differ from a flamout addition in conventional chilling, where whirlpooing & chilling presents a greater exposure to flavour & aroma compounds at a differing rate. I'm also impatient at this stage, so often pour my 2L in immediately. As such I generally add another 5 minutes to my reckoning. so a 'flameout' will be a 5 minute addition.


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## sama (6/8/12)

leached plasticisers can help keep it fresh/preserved.


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## manticle (6/8/12)

HDPE is renowned for leaching plasticisers.

And Claustr..................

never mind


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## labels (6/8/12)

I wouldn't attempt a lager with no-chill, I think you would fail unless it is a very hoppy so it will hide problems such as DMS, leached plasticisers. Even no-chill in glass would produce a noticable amount of DMS, especially using lager malt which is predisposed to producing tons of the stuff.


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## manticle (6/8/12)

And you know this because you've tried it or because someone told you that's how it is?

People have made no chill lagers, without shitloads of DMS. I can offer you my experience of non hoppy lagers both no chilled and fermented in the same HDPE vessel as well as some theory on why DMS is not a major issue if you're interested.

Leached plasticisers is not even supported in theory, let alone reality (unless you are no chilling in PET containers in which case you deserve it).


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## labels (6/8/12)

manticle said:


> And you know this because you've tried it or because someone told you that's how it is?
> 
> People have made no chill lagers, without shitloads of DMS. I can offer you my experience of non hoppy lagers both no chilled and fermented in the same HDPE vessel as well as some theory on why DMS is not a major issue if you're interested.
> 
> Leached plasticisers is not even supported in theory, let alone reality (unless you are no chilling in PET containers in which case you deserve it).



I would be interested in your experience and the theory. I haven't brewed with no-chill. All theory leads to DMS build up during slow cooling of wort, especially with malts that known for producing lot sof it such as lightly kilned pils malts.

I have experienced plasticiser leaching from HDPE containers in light (style) lagers. I now brew in stainless steel.


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## stef (6/8/12)

labels said:


> I would be interested in your experience and the theory. I haven't brewed with no-chill. All theory leads to DMS build up during slow cooling of wort, especially with malts that known for producing lot sof it such as lightly kilned pils malts.
> 
> I have experienced plasticiser leaching from HDPE containers in light (style) lagers. I now brew in stainless steel.




I've brewed quite a few no-chill lagers. Never had problems with DMS or with leaching.


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## Crusty (6/8/12)

labels said:


> I would be interested in your experience and the theory. I haven't brewed with no-chill. All theory leads to DMS build up during slow cooling of wort, especially with malts that known for producing lot sof it such as lightly kilned pils malts.
> 
> I have experienced plasticiser leaching from HDPE containers in light (style) lagers. I now brew in stainless steel.



This is exactly how the American brewers seem to believe is problematic with no chilling vs quickly cooling your wort.
Unfortunately at present they are way behind the eight ball with brewing techniques using no chill & the BIAB process. 
As for DMS build up using the no chill method, absolute hog wash. I don't think you will find any DMS problems in fresh wort kits supplied by the site sponsors. These are no chilled & they certainly wouldn't be doing it via no chill if DMS was a factor. Leaching from HDPE is a bit of a myth too I'm afraid. I's never happened to me nor anyone I know of using the HDPE cubes.


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## manticle (6/8/12)

Most theory is based around lager brewing on a commercial scale. No-chill is entirely impractical on such a scale and really is not a fair comparison.

Theoretically, SMM is transformed into DMS above around 80 degrees from memory. A longer boil will transform and volatise more than a shorter one.

All beers I make with a large portion of euro pilsner malts get a minimum 90 minute boil. After flameout, they then sit (loosely covered but my keggle has various places for steam to vent) for around 20 mins for convection currents to settle.

I then whirlpool and allow another 15-20 minutes for cone/trub formation.

I then run off into a cube. I have measured the temp previously at around 80 degrees - hotter than pasteurisation temp but cooler than DMS transformation temp (or right on the lower cusp).

Experientally - I haven't brewed loads of boh pils but I have made many beers with a large portion (some 100%) of euro pils. Dingemans and Weyermans are mainly what I use. These include saison, belgian pales and Belgian Golden Strongs. You may argue that the DMS will be hidden by the funky belgian yeast notes but I'm not convinced that DMS is so easy to hide.

I did last year brew a 100% pils malt bo pils which I whacked into VIC beerfest. It performed poorly, mostly due to it tasting a bit too clean and bland - not enough malt flavour nor fresh saaz flavour but the feedback picked up no DMS (actually allowable in that style anyway) and neither did I nor anyone else tasting it. 

I won a couple of categories in 2011 state comp with NC beers (fermented in the cube as well). One was amber/dark lager - was actually an alt and with an ale yeast. Yes it had Munich malt in it but over 50% of the base was wey pils. I've tasted DMS in commercial beers, in HB beers and in fault tasting sessions and munich malt isn't going to hide it if it's in significantly high levels (as people seem to suggest no chill will give). The other was 100% pils Belgian golden strong but it had brett too so maybe unfair to use that as an example. Not sure if the fermentation of brett can scrub out DMS but I've made the same beer before with no Brett and not had DMS noted by myself or other brewers or judges.

As for plastic from HDPE: I myself have never noted a plastic flavour I could relate to a cube (and I've been No chilling on average once a fortnight for several years). I know some have from some cubes - Thirsty Boy had a recommendation for thoroughly rinsing new cubes with boiling water, tasting the cooled water and repeating till everything tasted fresh and clean) but is there any documentation of actual plasticisers leaching from HDPE? It's rated to about 120 degrees from memory.

Presumably you could NC into your SS vessel so you could eliminate one variable, try a Euro Bo pils using the method described above and see for yourself.


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## labels (6/8/12)

Crusty said:


> This is exactly how the American brewers seem to believe is problematic with no chilling vs quickly cooling your wort.
> Unfortunately at present they are way behind the eight ball with brewing techniques using no chill & the BIAB process.
> As for DMS build up using the no chill method, absolute hog wash. I don't think you will find any DMS problems in fresh wort kits supplied by the site sponsors. These are no chilled & they certainly wouldn't be doing it via no chill if DMS was a factor. Leaching from HDPE is a bit of a myth too I'm afraid. I's never happened to me nor anyone I know of using the HDPE cubes.



Thst's very interesting. As I started brewing many years ago and all my information came from America in the early days of USENET I came to expect that their principals are the norm. My home brewery and brewing techniques are based around the American ideas because of this.
Although I'm unlikely to change my brewery or techniques now I am quite established it is refreshing to know that perhaps some of these old schools of thought are somewhat outdated so for that I thank you.
My plasticiser problem came from the early days when I was using an esky for mashing, it did get old before I tossed it. I use normal HDPE fermenters and they start breaking down after a while as well, I'm thinking of going Better Bottle here which I think is PET


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## labels (6/8/12)

That is a very comprehensive answer and makes so much sense. I guess we get locked away into our own ways of doing things with the attitude that everthing else is inferior. Something I try my hardest not to do and yet slipped into it.

I appreciate your time and detailed explanation as well as sharing your experiencex,


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## black_labb (6/8/12)

labels said:


> I would be interested in your experience and the theory. I haven't brewed with no-chill. All theory leads to DMS build up during slow cooling of wort, especially with malts that known for producing lot sof it such as lightly kilned pils malts.
> 
> I have experienced plasticiser leaching from HDPE containers in light (style) lagers. I now brew in stainless steel.



For a bit I was filling the cube within a few minutes of flameout and would let the trub settle in the cube to be siphoned off when pitching the yeast. There was no issue with dms at all. Most were using ale malt but some were 90%+ pils and there was no issue with dms (or any other issue despite breaking that many rules doing things that way). I've stopped that now because of concerns of staling compounds that may be transmitted between trub and wort, though I never noticed any issues. 

There are alot of brewers that approach different techniques in the same way they look at someone brewing a homebrand lager kit with a kilo of castor sugar in the heat of summer on a heat pad. Brewing can be done a number of ways all with good results.


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## manticle (6/8/12)

labels said:


> My plasticiser problem came from the early days when I was using an esky for mashing, it did get old before I tossed it. I use normal HDPE fermenters and they start breaking down after a while as well, I'm thinking of going Better Bottle here which I think is PET



The interesting thing here is that your experience of plastic tastes in your brew didn't come from cubing/no chilling so much as degradation of plastic (and plastics are prone to degradation, accelerated especially by UV light).

Plastic in the brewery may be more of an issue than No chill. As an aside, I know heat accelerates reactions so there is potential there, I'll grant. Just haven't noted it myself yet and do know that NC is widespread both in AU and overseas (US is starting to catch on: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-...brewing-117111/ )

Anyway the challenge is on.

I brew by seasons at the moment so I don't have time to get a 100% pils based lager down before the weather becomes perfect for UK bitter brewing but I have an oktoberfest and a bo pils with a touch of munich just going into lagering phase. Ready some time around October/November maybe.

Happy to trade a bottle with you to see if you can spot DMS or plastic once they are ready. Exchange for a No chill lager in Stainless steel or failing that but for the love of science: honest feedback.


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## Nick JD (6/8/12)

Are there plasticisers in HDPE?


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## sama (6/8/12)

http://www.squidoo.com/dangerous_plastics


this guy leads me to believe were doomed!doomed i say


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## kelbygreen (6/8/12)

HD Polyethylene #2 is the more durable of the two. However these plastics may leach when exposed to UV, heat and over time from natural breakdown.

lol not a good sign but I use aluminum pot and I am umm what was I saying???


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## sama (6/8/12)

is it that the levels of toxin at say 90c are minuscule or non existant?will there be a build up in the body with continual exposure ...meg I'm going for a smoke and to make some calls on my mobile...


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## sama (6/8/12)

ps you can find the answer that suits you on the internet if you look hard enough ,who to believe!


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## kelbygreen (6/8/12)

thats ok these are the hazards: 
asthma
birth defects
cancer
chronic bronchitis
deafness
diabetes
genetic changes
hyperactivity
indigestion
infertility
liver dysfunction
obesity
skin diseases
skin rashes
ulcers
vision failure

must be why I am obese lol cant be the beer must be the plastic


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## manticle (6/8/12)

I don't know. I just ate a small child.

Plastic made me do it.


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## sama (6/8/12)

i just made a small child.not using plastic made me do it


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## black_labb (6/8/12)

plastics tend to be lumped into a single category. Kind of like saying that stainless steel is dangerous because it is metal as is lead and therefore using a stainless steel kettle you will get lead into your beer.


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## felten (7/8/12)

My favourite part is where he says you shouldn't drink tap water because of bacteria, chlorine, flouride and maybe radioactive material.

The fox news report he links to only increases his credibility.


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## Yob (7/8/12)

kelbygreen said:


> thats ok these are the hazards:
> asthma
> birth defects
> cancer
> ...



you left out the Big B..


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## Crusty (7/8/12)

labels said:


> Thst's very interesting. As I started brewing many years ago and all my information came from America in the early days of USENET I came to expect that their principals are the norm. My home brewery and brewing techniques are based around the American ideas because of this.
> Although I'm unlikely to change my brewery or techniques now I am quite established it is refreshing to know that perhaps some of these old schools of thought are somewhat outdated so for that I thank you.
> My plasticiser problem came from the early days when I was using an esky for mashing, it did get old before I tossed it. I use normal HDPE fermenters and they start breaking down after a while as well, I'm thinking of going Better Bottle here which I think is PET



It's quite easy to follow a technique that's tried & tested as you should expect the same results. We all get bogged down in our own way of doing things & sometimes neglect to understand that others may think outside the box. Brew in a bag & no chill is a perfect example of what almost every brewer in the past would deem to be a failure, attempting to brew an all grain full volume mash with no sparge & heavens forbid, slowly chilling your wort (no chill) This is a fantastic way to brew & will make just as good a beer as any other method of brewing. Efficiency is another example of people assuming you will not get good extraction with a full volume mash & no sparge. I got 86% into fermenter efficiency with my last APA, 23lt @1.048.
I am not surprised you got some plastic problems with the old esky mash tun. HDPE will not give you those problems you speak of.


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## Andyd (7/8/12)

If anyone's interested in playing around and adding an ounce of science to the argument, at ANHCthree we will be doing a three-way collaborative experiment with Basic Brewing Radio's James Spencer and BYO's Chris Colby to play various chilling methods off against one another.

Check out the pages episode of BBR for more details, and we'll get some more details up on the conference website to that you can play along.

Cheers,

Andy


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## kieran (8/8/12)

Better? No.


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## Crusty (8/8/12)

kieran said:


> Better? No.



I thinks it's heaps better.
No wasted water, no waiting for over half an hour to drop wort to pitching temp, no deadline of when to ferment & your all done.
It's way better. I used a wort chiller for a few years before doing no chill & the resulting beer is exactly the same, just so much less mucking around. Ferment at your leisure, too easy.


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## Wolfy (8/8/12)

Crusty said:


> I thinks it's heaps better.
> No wasted water, no waiting for over half an hour to drop wort to pitching temp, no deadline of when to ferment & your all done.
> It's way better. I used a wort chiller for a few years before doing no chill & the resulting beer is exactly the same, just so much less mucking around. Ferment at your leisure, too easy.


Last brew day my plate chiller dropped a kettle full of 100deg wort to 14 in about 10 mins so it's 'heaps better' than having to wait day(s) to pitch yeast.


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## Crusty (8/8/12)

Wolfy said:


> Last brew day my plate chiller dropped a kettle full of 100deg wort to 14 in about 10 mins so it's 'heaps better' than having to wait day(s) to pitch yeast.



This time of the year it's no too bad. I only had an immersion chiller & relied on ambient water temp which was a real struggle to get below 25deg or so. I did on a few occasions resort to an esky with iced water but compared to no chill, well it's no chill by a long shot for me, regardless of the season. For me, it meant extra time to get the wort temp down enough to pitch & sometimes this would add at least an hour to my brew day. I still think no chill is way better in my circumstance than what I was doing previously.
C'mon Wolfy, you know you hate cleaning out that plate chiller.


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## emnpaul (8/8/12)

felten said:


> My favourite part is where he says you shouldn't drink tap water because of bacteria, chlorine, flouride and maybe radioactive material.
> 
> The FAUX news report he links to only increases his credibility.



Fixed.


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## manticle (8/8/12)

Wolfy said:


> day(s)



Plural?

This conversation could turn me into a cunticle again.


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## Wolfy (8/8/12)

Crusty said:


> C'mon Wolfy, you know you hate cleaning out that plate chiller.


It's not been an issue yet.
I back-flush it with water - immediately after use - and recirculate boiling water prior to use.
If the mash tun or kettle get a sodium percarbonate (or maybe caustic) soak then I'll run that through the plate chiller too.


manticle said:


> Plural?
> 
> This conversation could turn me into a cunticle again.


Weeks ... months ... never done for making beer myself so can't say which is more appropriate.
It might take _many months_ for wort cubed at the start of an Australian summer to get down to 14C, which was done in 10 mins with the plate chiller.  
... cunticle away.


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## manticle (8/8/12)

If someone can't get a cube to 14 degrees in a day, they should take up knitting.

NC can wait for months but it's not a requirement.


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## punkin (9/8/12)

Just to add to one of these populated threads myself. 

I have found nochill to completely suit my brewing/fermenting/kegging/drinking system. Because i brew 4 kegs of beer at a time and only have 12 kegs and room for 6 cold, i have system issues.

I can chill my beer with my immersion chiller, takes close to two hours, put the 84 litres in a huge fermenter and then ferment and keg 4 kegs worth. This means a maximum of three or four types of beer at a time for my four taps. Also means i'm brewing often and brewing when i need to. ie as soon as i look like having four kegs spare at the end of two weeks fermenting time.

I now have 12 cubes. This means i cut two hours off my brew day, i use a 60l fermenter and ferment two cubes at a time. I can brew a couple days in a row if i feel like it and not brew for a month. I have a choice of beer from six spare kegs, six cold kegs or twelve cubes at any one time for fermenting or drinking. I can choose a beer and tip it straight to the lees from the last one and it's up and fermenting again straight away.


It's not without it's challenges for me either though. It took me quite a while (i'm still tweaking) to get hop utilisation to where my beers were as good as chilled beers to my taste. I tried 15 min subtractions etc but because i like highly aromatic hopped ales i was either getting bitterness issues or no hop flavour/aroma.

I solved the bitterness issues by chucking out all the advice about subtracting times from the hop additions and clicking the no chill button on Brewmate and retyping my recipes with the standard additions to equal the original ibu's, thus useing less hops. This fixes the bitterness issues, but obviously not the aroma issues.
I've ordered large tea balls for keg hopping and have been doing a lot of dryhopping.
I still need to learn the french press method for those beers that use flameout, but not dry hop. Like Ross's Summer ale. A fair favourite of mine with Nelson flowers.




So, while i don't think no chill is better, it certainly does suit me better. :icon_chickcheers:


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## sponge (9/8/12)

As usual in these discussions, different methods suit different brewers, and all can use their methods to compensate for any difference in outcome.

BIAB/3V/HERMS/RIMS.... they all make great beer, and can all make horrible beer if not treated correctly. Its up to the individual to use their system to acheive the best results possible from it.

Similarly with plate chilling/immersion chilling/no chilling. Each has their pro's and con's, and its down to the individual brewer to see what works best for him/her.

Experiment and decide for yourself. thats the advantage of this glorious hobby.

I am a no chiller due to only being able to ferment one beer at a time in the fridge, and only having a 2 keg fridge for serving. Its what I get for living in an apartment atm. When I get a bigger house with more keg/fermenting space and a water tank, I will most probably go down the chilling path as I won't be wasting water using a water tank... but that's still a couple of years away yet :icon_cheers: 


Sponge


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## Bats (9/8/12)

My 2c.

I have used both and find NC suits me better.

I had an Immersion Chiller but got rid of it once I started NC as I did not notice a difference and NC suited my setup much better.

Now I NC into cubes that fit into my fermenting fridge much easier. When cooled enough (overnight), I attach a MixStir to my battery drill and aerate for around 4 or 5 mins. 

I then pitch and put the cap back on the cube. Tighten the cap before backing off a couple of turns to vent Co2. I believe Manticle is a big fan of this method of cube fermenting.

I found this works really well and minimises exposure to badness.


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## Mike L'Itorus (9/8/12)

sponge said:


> <snip>
> BIAB/3V/HERMS/RIMS.... they all make great beer, and can all make horrible beer if not treated correctly. _Its up to the individual to use their system to acheive the best results possible from it._
> 
> Similarly with plate chilling/immersion chilling/no chilling. _Each has their pro's and con's, and its down to the individual brewer to see what works best for him/her_.</snip>



italics, mine. 

One of the most sensible things said on this forum in a long time. Even if he did forget 2V.


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## QldKev (9/8/12)

There's many threads about nochill for a lot more info.

I nochill / slowchill cause it suits me, like punkin I have 12 nochill cubes and brew larger batches to fill multiple cubes so I don't have to brew as often. I still use the normal 25L Bunnings fermenters so I can be fermenting what ever looks good at the time, plus I'm too slack to carry the big fermenter around. 

Do I prefer the hop aroma from a chilled beer, yes. 

I've tried the 10 min APA, and found there was still a lack of fresh hop aroma, and and over kill of hop flavour which made the beer one dimensional killing a lot of the malt profile. 


Has anyone tried the liquid hops to add some fresh aroma back to a no chill brew? I know what the sterotype says of the hops, but has anyone actually tried it? Seems a pretty convenient way to throw some in at kegging time. 


QldKev


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## sponge (9/8/12)

[quote name='Mike L'Itorus' post='942866' date='Aug 9 2012, 09:58 AM']italics, mine. 

One of the most sensible things said on this forum in a long time. Even if he did forget 2V. [/quote]

And 1V  

But the general idea is there... There's also the slow chill and most probably a few other methods not been mentioned.

All in all, do the best you can with what you have, and you can tweak from there.

You can never have too much tweaking


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## bum (9/8/12)

sponge said:


> Similarly with plate chilling/immersion chilling/no chilling. Each has their pro's and con's, and its down to the individual brewer to see what works best for him/her.


In terms of beer quality, I'd be interested to see what cons chillers might like to put forward for their method. The cons for NC in this regard are well documented but I've never really seen a chiller say "Yeah, I really like being able to pitch right away but [insert potential for negative impact on the beer]".


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## sponge (9/8/12)

Possibly not beer quality, just having to have a fermenter and yeast/starter ready to go.

Beer quality wouldn't really be coming into play with that, only really the time/convenience factor.


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## Acasta (9/8/12)

bum said:


> In terms of beer quality, I'd be interested to see what cons chillers might like to put forward for their method. The cons for NC in this regard are well documented but I've never really seen a chiller say "Yeah, I really like being able to pitch right away but [insert potential for negative impact on the beer]".


One of the cons I find when chilling is that I feel that I need to pitch yeast rather quickly, as I'm not confident putting cold wort into a cube/fermenter for storage. If preparing a starter or something, it's harder to spontaneously make a batch without a few days of yeast prep.
Obviously using dry yeast would eliminate this concern.


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## Mike L'Itorus (9/8/12)

bum said:


> In terms of beer quality, I'd be interested to see what cons chillers might like to put forward for their method. The cons for NC in this regard are well documented but I've never really seen a chiller say "Yeah, I really like being able to pitch right away but [insert potential for negative impact on the beer]".



Chillers are compelled to pitch soon after brewing. No chillers are not. Not everyone works a 9-5 M-F situation. Some people need to squeeze brewing activities in where they can, and sometimes this is at short notice....so some ppl may NC, because they can't guarantee having a pitchable amount of viable yeast available when they brew. I often get time off at very short notice; If I used chilling as my only option, then I would not be able to brew on many of these occasions, due to not having fresh yeast on hand or a starter prepared. NC allows me to take the advantage of the unexpected time, and worry about the yeast later.

An extrapolation on this is time off...last time I had time off work (2weeks), I brewed a double batch, and chilled it. I pitched it straight away. The following day, I brewed another double (NC); 2 days later, _another_ double (NC). A few days later, a single (NC)....filling all 5 cubes, before the 2 fermenters were finished. (why 5? Funny number. I need to buy another cube.). Anyway, there is no way I could have brewed this much in this timeframe (and been able to ferment with temp control) if I was purely chilling. Turns out that after this, I was working like a maniac for the next few months, and didn't have time to brew at all.....but that was OK. Cos I had the cubes there, ready to pitch at my convenience, and all I had to do was starters.  

Another con of chilling / pro of no chilling is that, in the case of ppl that have capacity to ferment 2 fermenters at the same time, you can stagger your fermentation schedule (ie ferment 2 different beers at the same time) without having to _brew _2 in a row. Allows for constant variety on tap, without having to adjust your brewing to suit. 

That being said, I use *both *methods. Depends on my needs at the time. Each is equally valid, imo.




edit...such a long time spent typing, yeast pitching timeframe was brought up by squarepants and acasta.

edit v2: to complete the sentance proposed;


> "Yeah, I really like being able to pitch right away but [insert potential for negative impact on the beer]".


"Yeah, I really like being able to pitch right away but sometimes it's a pain in the arse _having _to pitch right away". 

"Yeah, I really like being able to pitch right away but sometimes it's good to be able, when I have time to brew, to get a stockpile of readily pitchable wort for those periods when I don't have time to brew". 

And to *directly *address the question, as asked. 

"Yeah, I really like being able to pitch right away but [insert potential for negative impact on the beer] I keep getting wild yeast infections. I think it's to do with all the teletubbie trees around here, that are constantly in flower. I get one whenever I chill, no matter how anal I am in relation to cleaning and sanitation....Although, when I NC, I don't have that problem. So I'm fairly certain that the infection issue is coming in to play in my brew area, in the time between my wort dropping below pasteurisation temps, and the time tht the yeast is fully active and outracing whatever is causing the issue". 

this last one...dramatics? no, not really. It's reasonably common, even among seasoned brewers. A few months back, BeerFingers (may he rest in peace, and never be forgotten. :icon_cheers: ) had this very same scenario. A few years ago (long time lurker  ) Chappo had exactly the same. And there are many, many others....
If nothing else, it points to infection issues occuring between start of chill and high krausen, NC was _*not the cure*_, as such, in either of these cases. But, it did help pinpoint where in the process the problem was occuring. 

But I think I've belaboured the point more than enough. 

Just to reitterate: I use both methods, and both are equally valid, when weighed up with reason and intention.


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## sean_0 (9/8/12)

I use both methods too, and both have their advantages. When I do chill I try to do another batch straight away and use the now warm water from the chiller to mash in the next batch. This way I'm not wasting water and I save a good 20 mins or so of mash water heating time on the second batch. The second batch is then cubed.


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## Florian (9/8/12)

QldKev said:


> Has anyone tried the liquid hops to add some fresh aroma back to a no chill brew? I know what the sterotype says of the hops, but has anyone actually tried it? Seems a pretty convenient way to throw some in at kegging time.



I've done a German Pils which was exclusively bittered and 'aromaed' with liquid hops, no actual pellets or flowers were used. I've thrown it into the Qld case swap and a few comps with some good reviews/results. Personally I didn't like the beer but that had more to do with a yeast issue than the hop oils. 

I might actually try that again with some american hop oils in the future if they're available. 

I still sometimes use the 'bittering oil' on beers where I have missed the mark slightly. Preferably before filtering as it introduces a slight haze into the beer.


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## bum (9/8/12)

Mike L said:


> Are you sure? The only time in that whole thing you even tried to address my question you ended it with a bold and underlined point indicating that it was ultimately irrelevant too.


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## beerdrinkingbob (9/8/12)

I think both are great...

Lately with a little one ( 6 months) no chill has been the only reason my kegs have anything in them :beerbang:


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## bum (9/8/12)

manticle said:


> @Bum - What exactly is the negative in terms of beer quality in regards to NC? All I can think of is that hop aroma and sometimes flavour is _different_. Is that all you are referring to?


You gotta be shitting me.


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## Bizier (10/8/12)

I NC for non-hop forward beers, and chill beers where I am going to try to emphasise the late hop.

I enjoy that I can brew a three (potentially four) keg batch and use them as I need just to get beer on tap. I do really also appreciate that if things go pear shaped, you are still pasteurising the F*** out of your wort and you can pitch when the yeast is ready and make a good job of the ferment.


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## Wolfy (10/8/12)

Bizier said:


> ... I do really also appreciate that if things go pear shaped, you are still pasteurising the F*** out of your wort and you can pitch when the yeast is ready and make a good job of the ferment.


At present I'm lucky enough to be able to do it the other way around - let the yeast dictate when to brew. Once the starter is good and ready and the yeast has started to settler-out, it's time to brew.


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## manticle (10/8/12)

bum said:


> You gotta be shitting me.



Pretty straightforward question deserves a straightforward answer.

I'll rephrase.

Besides the effect of NC on hop aroma and flavour are there any other well documented effects on beer quality to which you refer in your previous statement?


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## Bribie G (10/8/12)

Wolfy said:


> Last brew day my plate chiller dropped a kettle full of 100deg wort to 14 in about 10 mins so it's 'heaps better' than having to wait day(s) to pitch yeast.



Couldn't let that one pass.. last time I was in Melbourne I just did what I normally do in QLD and hopped in the shower before the hot / cold had stabilised, badly miscaluclated and you could have heard the shriek as far away as Bribie Island. You could snap freeze a kitten in Melbourne mains water most of the year and send it to Butters surface mail and still frozen when it gets there  

However we do have a club member here in Pine Rivers who immersion-chills using buckets of ice he painstakingly prepares in ice cream containers then smashes with a sledgehamer, plus a pond pump with hoses and shit all over the place - nice drop but oh the humanity. :mellow:


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## Aydos (10/8/12)

I am only just about to start out into AG and I will be no chilling. I like the ability to break up the brew day as I can only really brew on the weekends. Also the water temp in Qld doesn't seem to get cold enough to bring it down to pitching temp very easily anyway.


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## QldKev (10/8/12)

Another pro for nochill, it looks pretty cool when you check out your stockpile






Eventually all the 25L cubes on the bottom shelf will get replaced with 20L ones as I don't brew to fill the bigger ones up anymore. 



QldKev


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## brad81 (10/8/12)

Awesome 

A lot of filled cubes I see here (photos anyway) appear to be well lit. Does the exposure to light affect these cubed beauties at all?


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## punkin (10/8/12)

Had a bloke in my shed the other day who was more into water purifying than beer.

He'd been in there for hours when he turned around and pointed at my cubes and said "Is that _all_ beer?" :icon_cheers: 


Also said that Ross's Summer Ale was one of the best 'home brews' he's ever tried. Not bad for a blonde drinker.


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## QldKev (10/8/12)

brad81 said:


> Awesome
> 
> A lot of filled cubes I see here (photos anyway) appear to be well lit. Does the exposure to light affect these cubed beauties at all?




I've read it is not effected until after you pitch yeast. 

Just in case, I don't leave mine in direct light. In the pic I have the side door to the workshop open for light, but it never stays open. Also you may see in the pic I have cardboard on the side to protect most of the shelf, with the drawers helping blockout light for the lower ones. 

QldKev


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## Nibbo (10/8/12)

I no-chill because thats what i originally set up for. I also have a little plate chiller that i haven't set up yet so i am planning on using the chilling method as well. Tank water is currently at 10 Deg so it should do the job easily. The advantage to no-chill for me is i can brew my 60 - 80 ltr batches and decide when i want to ferment them out. Days, weeks, Months... Also i can make subtle changes in fermenting for the same beer like using different yeasts, hops and temps so i can still manipulate different flavours. All in all i just love making beer and the small changes you can make that can change a beer entirely. Beers cool!!!


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## AdelaideHillsBrewer (11/11/12)

I Have been no chill for some time now in my little Biab set up. All working well, just wondered if anyone has thought about BPA from the cube or Jerry cans. They say BPA is toxic and can be released into plastic when heated. I don't really like the idea of serving up nice pints of ale full of BPA and slowly killing all my mates and myself included. Anyone got anymore info?


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## felten (11/11/12)

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww....mp;x=15&y=8


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## QldKev (11/11/12)

AdelaideHillsBrewer said:


> I Have been no chill for some time now in my little Biab set up. All working well, just wondered if anyone has thought about BPA from the cube or Jerry cans. They say BPA is toxic and can be released into plastic when heated. I don't really like the idea of serving up nice pints of ale full of BPA and slowly killing all my mates and myself included. Anyone got anymore info?



I'd be more worried about the botulism.


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## bignath (11/11/12)




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## mje1980 (11/11/12)

AdelaideHillsBrewer said:


> I Have been no chill for some time now in my little Biab set up. All working well, just wondered if anyone has thought about BPA from the cube or Jerry cans. They say BPA is toxic and can be released into plastic when heated. I don't really like the idea of serving up nice pints of ale full of BPA and slowly killing all my mates and myself included. Anyone got anymore info?




Don't worry about it, it also causes memory loss so you'll never remember when you get real sick. That's if your arms don't fall off from the leprosy it also causes. Of course, if the blindness sets in early, it will slow your consumption, so will prolong your life a little longer.


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## JDW81 (11/11/12)

AdelaideHillsBrewer said:


> I Have been no chill for some time now in my little Biab set up. All working well, just wondered if anyone has thought about BPA from the cube or Jerry cans. They say BPA is toxic and can be released into plastic when heated. I don't really like the idea of serving up nice pints of ale full of BPA and slowly killing all my mates and myself included. Anyone got anymore info?



We'll all just have to wait 30 years and see if the no chill brewers develop cancers earlier or at a greater rate than chillers. 

Personally I don't think there is that much to worry about, given the amount of carcinogens that are flying around the environment.

Do you use deodorant? Large amounts of aluminium have been linked with Alzheimer's disease.

Alcohol has been linked with all kinds of cancer (mouth, oesophagus, breast).

Do you eat salami/red meat regularly? If so hello increased risk of colorectal cancer, or botulism if the salami is cured properly (although some would have you believe that no chill brewing can lead to botulism).

Ever lived/worked/went to school in buildings with asbestos in them? Lung cancer/mesothelioma.

Just sayin...


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## bum (11/11/12)

There isn't any BPA in your cubes.


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## Nick JD (11/11/12)

bum said:


> There isn't any BPA in your cubes.



One of mine has a Black Pale Ale in it.


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## bum (11/11/12)

I stand corrected. That probably will make you crook if you drink enough of it at once.


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