# First Dunkelweizen



## Alex.Tas (23/8/13)

Hello,

I've made a hefeweizen before with (to my taste buds) good success. I used the coopers wheat beer tin, along with 700gms of wheat DME and 500 LDME i think. I used WB06 as i was a little hesitant to change to liquid yeasts. 
This time, i want to give liquid yeast a shot.
Im thinking of using wyeast 3068 to make a dunkel. 
Its been a while since i've had a dunkel. but from memory the last bottle of Franziskaner I had wasn't too 'roasty'. it was definitely more malty than the lighter one but didnt have too much of a roasted flavor that can be given by darker grains.

So my questions:
any suggestions for a recipe? I don't really want too much of a roasted flavour, more so the increased maltiness and colour associated with this style.
I've read that munich malts are the obvious choice, but i heard that requires mashing - which i haven't done before.
Also - brew temperature. Last time i did my lighter hefe i brewed around 20 or so degrees with the WB06. will this cause off flavours with the Wyeast3068?

Cheers,


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## Adr_0 (23/8/13)

Temperature of 17 or 18°C should do the trick from what I hear.

Can you get any dried munich extract? You will probably need ~2kg of extract on top if you are aiming for something in the 5-6% ABV range. You should probably do 1kg of wheat extract and either 1kg of munich or 1kg of pale.

I would be throwing in maybe 250g of carawheat and 200-250g of choc wheat to get your colour and flavour.


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## Adr_0 (23/8/13)

actually I'd probably push the carawheat up to 300-350g and the choc wheat back to 150-200g depending on how dark you want it.


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## carniebrew (23/8/13)

Keep it simple and try this:

1 can Coopers Wheat Beer
1 can Coopers Wheat LME

150gm Carafa Special 1

20 litres in the fermenter, use 3068 at 17C. 

Should give you 1051/1015 (5.1% after bottling), 19 IBU, EBC of 31.

No roast flavour whatsoever, the Carafa 1 is perfect for the style.


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## warra48 (23/8/13)

I'm with carniebrew.

You do not really want any roast flavour in a Dunkelweizen, it's meant to be malt driven.

If you brew an AG Dunkelweizen, you get the colour from using Dark Wheat, and a smidge of Chocolate Wheat and Carafa Special.


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## verysupple (23/8/13)

carniebrew said:


> 150gm Carafa Special 1


The important word here is "Special". It's the dehusked version and shouldn't make it as roasty and won't add astringency. You want Carafa* Special*.


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## carniebrew (24/8/13)

Aye. On the subject, has anyone ever seen the non-Special version of Carafa for sale? I've always wondered why Weyermann have both versions with such a similar name, but it seems Carafa 1/2/3 is actually pretty hard to find, most grain sellers are selling only Carafa Special 1/2/3.


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## Alex.Tas (27/8/13)

Thanks for the info people. I like the simple brews the best. sounds relatively straight forward. How long should i steep the carafa 1 Special for?
Also, as my local HBS doesn't stock liquid yeast or the carafa special, have you got any suggestions on internet dealers that offer a good price? I would probably get the other required ingredients there too.


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## rheffera (27/8/13)

It might interest people to know that i just put down a variation of the recipe above. Essentially the same just weaker on the alcohol. 4.9% in the bottle according to spreadsheet.

150g carafa special 1. I steeped this for 30 mins.
1 x Thomas coopers wheat
1kg dry wheat malt

WB-06

made up to 20L

Side note: I hate working with liquid malt. When i do full extracts i try and use all dry malt.


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## unclebarrel (27/8/13)

Hi guys, 
I have nothing to add to this thread other than the fact that I have tasted carniebrews dunkle.
It is a great drop, worth brewing if you like dunkles, and easy too !

Good luck with your brew Alex.Tas


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## dago001 (27/8/13)

Hi Alex.Tas. Im up on the NW Coast of Tassie. If I am ordering liquid yeasts, I normally use grain and grape (site sponsor) as they are in Victoria and if I order early in the week I normally get my parcel the next day. I wouldnt use WB06 for this beer by preference, but if you have nothing else available then go for it. The 3068 will make this a great beer, but be careful as it produces a pretty good krausen. Don't brew it new carpet (speaking from experience here).
You can also get some carafa from grain and grape at the same time if you order a liquid yeast.
I can mail some midnight wheat down to you if you want, which is what I use instead of carafa. It doesnt have any roast characteristics, and would only need a short steep (10 - 15 minutes) to get the colour that you are after. I can stick a little choc malt in it as well to help it along. PM me if you are interested.
Cheers
LB


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## carniebrew (27/8/13)

Alex.Tas said:


> Thanks for the info people. I like the simple brews the best. sounds relatively straight forward. How long should i steep the carafa 1 Special for?
> Also, as my local HBS doesn't stock liquid yeast or the carafa special, have you got any suggestions on internet dealers that offer a good price? I would probably get the other required ingredients there too.


Craft Brewer is good for online too, their Wyeast liquid yeast varieties are 10% or so cheaper than Grain & Grape, and delivery is reasonable.
http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/

Steep the carafa 1 for 30 minutes or so.


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## Alex.Tas (28/8/13)

Hi people and thanks again for the input. Craftbrewer is out of stock for the 3068, so ill use the grain and grape site that lager bomb noted. There is the option to have the grain milled - Usually when i use the grain i'll just crack the grains a little in the motar and pestle. If i get them milled from grain and grape, i assume i wouldn't need to do this step? is there any disadvantage associated with having them mill it for me?

Also, my fermenter is only 25L, so may struggle for headspace with a 20L batch. I've made up a blowoff tube or whatever they are called by taping some clear tubing to the top of my empty airlock, and having the tube run down into an old extract tin half filled with sterileised water. Should i reduce my batchsize to allow enough headspace for the 3068 to do its stuff?

Cheers,


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (28/8/13)

Headspace for 3068 is usually, minimum 1/3 of your FV volume, preferably half. So if you have a 40L fermenter, 20L beer in it and allow for the headspace.

I had 5L headspace for BRY97, which is known for a bit of krausen, but not like 3068 and it still attempted to climb out of the fermenter.

So I don't reckon 5L will be enough without your blow-off tube and even with it, you're still gonna have a big mess to clean up.


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## Alex.Tas (28/8/13)

18L plus 33% is 24L so that could work. I've got reatively constant temperature inside by brew room of 14 degrees, with the exothermic 'reaction' of the yeast, would this be okay to leave without any external heat? I've got a thermometer sticker on the outside of the barrel, and i've also got an immersion heater (lowest it can go is 20 degrees) so i can crank it up a bit if it gets too cold. Should i also aim to pitch the yeast at around 12 degrees? (Because of the 30 method).


Cheers,


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## carniebrew (28/8/13)

Alex.Tas said:


> Hi people and thanks again for the input. Craftbrewer is out of stock for the 3068, so ill use the grain and grape site that lager bomb noted. There is the option to have the grain milled - Usually when i use the grain i'll just crack the grains a little in the motar and pestle. If i get them milled from grain and grape, i assume i wouldn't need to do this step? is there any disadvantage associated with having them mill it for me?
> 
> Also, my fermenter is only 25L, so may struggle for headspace with a 20L batch. I've made up a blowoff tube or whatever they are called by taping some clear tubing to the top of my empty airlock, and having the tube run down into an old extract tin half filled with sterileised water. Should i reduce my batchsize to allow enough headspace for the 3068 to do its stuff?
> 
> Cheers,


If you're going to use the grain within a couple of months, and can keep it cool and dry, get it milled by them, it's easier and they mill it really well. Tell 'em in the comments want kind of milling you want, i.e. I say "milled for BIAB", where they can crush it pretty much as fine as they want.

I have used 3068 a few times now, and am yet to experience the massive krausen others have. I usually do 18 litres in a 30l fermenter. I don't know if maybe it's the 17C ferment temp I use?


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## Alex.Tas (29/8/13)

hmm maybe i should invest in a 30l fermenter.... I'll just be using a kitchen sieve to strain the grain, so perhaps a fine mill wouldn't be the best option for me. How long do you usually leave it in the barrel for Carnie? the reccomended temp for 3068 is 18-24, so i would assume that being below this extends the fermentation process somewhat? 
Ive got an average temp of 14 degrees in my brew room, would the yeast generate enough heat to get it to 17 do you think? or should i use some sort of external heating?


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## carniebrew (30/8/13)

I've found with my 17C fermentations using 3068 that it's all over and done with within 5 days, so no, it doesn't seem to slow it down. But I usually leave it 2 weeks in the primary before bulk priming to 2.8 vols and bottling.

An ambient temp of 14 wouldn't be far off, but I use a brew-fridge with an STC-1000 so I can't really help there. My guess is you wouldn't need heating, could maybe just wrap your fermenter in a woolly jumper or jacket, blankets or some such.


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## Alex.Tas (1/9/13)

Righto, put this one down on friday. There is a bit of foam, but nothing extreme. I would say three inches. Not quite what i expected. the WB06 i used before had more foam than the 3068.
I've wrapped it in a woolen jumper, and i think its sitting at close to 20, so i might ditch the jumper.


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## carniebrew (2/9/13)

Yep, get it down to 17, and fast. 20C will not give you the same flavour profile, trust me!


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## Alex.Tas (2/9/13)

will do. not too sure if ive got a good seal on my FV. 
there is no bubbling out my blow off tube.

Before anyone gets upset about me looking at the airlock... generally you should get some movement in the first few days. especially if the brew is foaming.

I'm using my older FV (the one i usually just use for bulk priming then bottling, and i think the ribbers might be RS. I'll swap it for glad wrap tonight. might help to loose some temperature too if there is only a thin membrane on top.
do you need to put a rubber band around the top when using this method? I haven't done it before...


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## dago001 (2/9/13)

Use the rubber o ring in the lid of the fermenter.
cheers
LB


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## carniebrew (2/9/13)

Yeah, make it look something like this:


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## Dan Pratt (2/9/13)

Carnie brew.....wtf....is that the elastic from a pair of underwear that holds on your temp probe....???


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## Grainer (2/9/13)

lol looks like his daks on the fermenter..


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## carniebrew (2/9/13)

Haha...sorry, not my fermenter...I just did a google image search on 'glad wrap on fermenter' and that was the first hit that looked anything like what we're after! Didn't even look below the o-ring before posting it...GOLD.

Looks like the image is from this post on the coopers.com.au brewing forum, from a guy named Muddy Waters from NSW. Takes until post #19 before someone has a go at him about his undie elastic!


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## jyo (2/9/13)

Don't risk taking the lid off now just to change to glad wrap, mate. If you are that keen to use glad wrap, wait until your next brew.


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## Alex.Tas (3/9/13)

Too late. All changed over.


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## Glot (28/9/13)

Can I mill grains for this sort of use in a food processor? I am thinking unused would stay fresher if it was unmilled. Can it be and is it an advantage to freeze unused? I like this style of beer and this sounds like a good project to dip my toes into the water of moving away from kits.


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## Alex.Tas (1/10/13)

You can, but as i only used 150g, maybe just put the grains in a small ziplock, get rid of the excess air and use a rolling pin to crush the grains. I think if you go to fine (which would be easy to do in a food processor you can start geting bits you dont want in your beer.

Beer is tasting good. Not quite as full on flavor as the hefeweizen brewed without the carafa special, which may be due to the poor temp control, or the increase in biscuitty flavor from the grains. I reckon next time i might drop back to 100g


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## rheffera (1/10/13)

Alex, it may progress with time. I haven't touched the dunkel i put down earlier in this thread. I always let mine go for a month. (only 10 days to go before i have a bottle). Also WB-06 sets like cement on the sides of my fermenter. Never had that issues with any other yeast (i clean them out straight after bottling)


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## carniebrew (4/10/13)

rheffera said:


> Alex, it may progress with time. I haven't touched the dunkel i put down earlier in this thread. I always let mine go for a month. (only 10 days to go before i have a bottle). Also WB-06 sets like cement on the sides of my fermenter. Never had that issues with any other yeast (i clean them out straight after bottling)


You should get into your wheat beers earlier, I find they change very little between 1-2 weeks old and a couple of months old, then they start to go downhill. Sneak one now and see what you think.


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## RelaxedBrewer (4/10/13)

carniebrew said:


> You should get into your wheat beers earlier, I find they change very little between 1-2 weeks old and a couple of months old, then they start to go downhill. Sneak one now and see what you think.


I totally agree with this.


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## Alex.Tas (4/10/13)

Yeah I agree with Carniebrew. they prime up well due to the low flocculation of the yeast (i assume that's why). After 2 weeks they are good to go usually.
I'm going to put on a 'normal' hefeweizen this weekend with some 3068 i saved from the yeast cake. I washed it a couple of times. 
I'm going to duplicate a recipe i did earlier this year, but with WB06, so i can compare the flavour profile. 1 tin of coopers wheat beer, 600g wheat died malt, 500 ldme. Wham bam thank you ma'am. 
Its the first time i have tried re-using yeast


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## rheffera (4/10/13)

carniebrew said:


> You should get into your wheat beers earlier, I find they change very little between 1-2 weeks old and a couple of months old, then they start to go downhill. Sneak one now and see what you think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## rheffera (5/10/13)

Well i have imbibed the dunkel. Low head for the style but whatever. 

Smell: Wheat
Taste: Wheaty, Sort of chocolatey. Coudn't really pick out bananna or clove individually but there was a phenol flavour there thats for sure.

It sure has improved since i tasted the hydro sample a few weeks ago.


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## Rod (17/10/13)

carniebrew said:


> Keep it simple and try this:
> 
> 1 can Coopers Wheat Beer
> 1 can Coopers Wheat LME
> ...


I was making a 25 litre batch

can thomas wheat
1kg wheat extract
750g liq wheat extract
150g carafa special 1

came brew day , as you do , and only had 500g wheat dry extract so added it and additional 500kg light dry malt extract

made the batch 

then had choose of temperatures



fermentation temperature: 12-25°C (53.6-77°F) ideally 18-24°C (64.4-75.2°F)
for clover flavors : below 22°C (71.6°F)
for banana flavor: above 23°C (73.4°F)

no idea what I would like so went for the clover flavours

look like another batch has to be made with banana flavours


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## carniebrew (17/10/13)

So did you ferment at 17C? It's the way to go if you want it to taste anything like the commercial stuff. Other temps will make beer, just very different beer.


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## Rod (17/10/13)

fermented @ 17 degrees 2 hours ago


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## Glot (1/11/13)

Thought I would give Carniebrew's recipe a go in half quantity. Anyone got a polite suggestion for a recipe to use up the other half of the cans? Even a variation on this one.


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## Alex.Tas (1/11/13)

skip the carafa for the 2nd batch, makes a more traditional hefeweizen... should give you a good reference point for what the carafa does for your beer.
Made this way you can make up the beer without the carafa, split it between your two FVs, then add the carafa into one...


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## JDW81 (1/11/13)

Glot said:


> Thought I would give Carniebrew's recipe a go in half quantity. Anyone got a polite suggestion for a recipe to use up the other half of the cans? Even a variation on this one.


Do you not have the space to do full batches? I'd make a full batch if you have the equipment, alternatively, why not make a dunkle and a straight out wheat beer if you have 2 fermenters?

JD


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## Glot (1/11/13)

I have the room but it takes me too long to drink a full batch and I would rather experiment with different beers. If I make one I think I would like more off, then I will do a full.
Like the idea of no Caraffa for one. Good way to learn the effects.


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## rheffera (1/11/13)

Go for it. No harm in experimenting. The only person you have to satisfy is yourself. I'm drinking Carnie's recipe right now and loving it. Who knew K&K could be so good. I admit though, it was an acquired taste. I didn't like it at first but it has grown on me. Alot. My house dunkel for now.


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## carniebrew (1/11/13)

Happy to add to this that I recently found a packet of wb-06 in my garage fridge, I completely forgot I had. It was a month out of date, but has been in the fridge for at least 10 months, so I thought I'd give it a go in a small batch simple hefe recipe. I hadn't had any success with my early wb-06 recipes, and once I discovered 3068, I never considered going back. However, one thing I'd never tried was wb-06 at 17C, which is where I ended up with the 3068 liquid yeast.

So I did this (based on the "Harold-is-Weizen") hefe recipe from Brewing Classic Styles):

8 litre batch, 1054/1016 OG/FG, 5.5% abv after bottling

1.5kg CBW Bavarian Wheat LME
12gm Hallertau Mitt (4.8%) @ 30m - 14.5 IBU

WB-06, fermented at 17C.

Doesn't get a lot simpler than that, right? On first tasting at bottling time I wasn't quite sure this had worked....but I knew I was a bit anti wb-06. But I opened one last week, after a month in the bottle, and it's very, very close to my previous 3068 @ 17C brews. I was really surprised...and very bloody happy about it. Would have no hesitation brewing that again. I took a bottle to a recent "hoppy hour" tasting I have with a few fellow home brewers at work, and it went over a treat.


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## rheffera (1/11/13)

carniebrew said:


> Happy to add to this that I recently found a packet of wb-06 in my garage fridge, I completely forgot I had. It was a month out of date, but has been in the fridge for at least 10 months, so I thought I'd give it a go in a small batch simple hefe recipe. I hadn't had any success with my early wb-06 recipes, and once I discovered 3068, I never considered going back. However, one thing I'd never tried was wb-06 at 17C, which is where I ended up with the 3068 liquid yeast.
> 
> So I did this (based on the "Harold-is-Weizen") hefe recipe from Brewing Classic Styles):
> 
> ...


I too was anti wb-06, especially as i have done a basic hefe with WLP380 and found the phenolics to be superior, but let's be honest wb-06 does well. Glad you feel the same.


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