# Cider



## LukeCharles (13/8/10)

Hi all, 

About the put on a 25 L cider, got the juice organised. 

Do I need to add more sugar? in the form of dex?

What type of yeast and how much is recommended? I read Wyeast is good, any specific? 

Also heard about LDME, is about 250 grams a good amount?

I have read on the site that it is best to keep at the lower temp range to ferment. Is about 16 degrees C good? 

Any help would be great, I am a noob brewer at the moment. 

Thanks!


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## manticle (13/8/10)

No need for Dex. Straight Juice should give around 1050 - depending on the yeast it can ferment below 1000 which is both dry and reasonable alc level. Dex is superfluous. You can add malt if you like - it will add body and a different flavour. Look up Graff. I personally would only add malt if I was specifically making graff - cider doesn't need it.

I'd recommend getting a few litres of different juices just to make the profile a little more complex. Go with a cheap, preserve free base juice then add in some slightly more expensive juices (preserve free as well).

yeast can be any - I usually use white wine yeast which gives a very dry cider. I also add a bit of lactose to hold it back from being bone dry. I've recently tried 4766 (Wyeast) in a cider made from my own squeezed apples but at this point I'm not sure if it's the apple skin yeasts or the wyeast that's done the fermenting. Tastes good but more like a breton style. Some people use US05 which will be a bit less dry than white wine. I've also heard the wyeast sweet mead yeast can work.

I prefer lower ferment and this is traditional in breton cider making - I find, like a lager, it gives a cleaner drinking cider. I also like to cold condition mine following ferment for the same reason.

As for how much yeast - I tend to be pretty rough with my estimates but if you think of how much beer yeast you'd put in for a 1050-1060 wort, I'd go with that (12 - 15 grams dry or 1 full pack activator wyeast). Also use some yeast nutrient.


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## argon (13/8/10)

Try 50/50 apple juice and apple and pear juice... I think berri makes both. 

Go the 4766 cider yeast ferment at about 15. no need for dex, you'll just end up adding too much alc. If you like it with more body add 250 - 500g of ldme. For me cider is supposed to be dry almost like a nice dry white wine so I go without. 

If you want to play around try some vanilla pods and cinnamon then dryapple (like dryhop) a couple of chopped apples a few days into ferment.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (13/8/10)

My current crowd favourite is cheap juice, frozen raspberries attacked with stabmixer and cold-fermented champagne yeast.

Bottle conditioned is different to force carbed, but both raise a smile.


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## LukeCharles (16/8/10)

I live in South Australia, 

Where would I buy Wyeast 4766 ?


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## manticle (16/8/10)

Order from craftbrewer online or go here: http://www.beerbelly.com.au/yeast.html

4766 and sweet mead yeast down the bottom.

Grain and grape stock it too but their price for wyeast is slightly up on CB and the postage will probably be the same.


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## Acasta (16/8/10)

Just wanted to check a recipe, without starting a new thread!

Im thinking 16L Apple Juice, 4L Apple/Pear, 500g Lactose and US-05 (as i have it handy and cheaply)


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## bum (16/8/10)

Acasta said:


> Just wanted to check a recipe, without starting a new thread!



Yeah, a hijack is much more polite.

Your recipe looks fine. Only thing I'd change is the lactose - I'd omit it completely and backsweeten with juice on serving to taste.


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## Acasta (16/8/10)

bum said:


> Yeah, a hijack is much more polite.
> 
> Your recipe looks fine. Only thing I'd change is the lactose - I'd omit it completely and backsweeten with juice on serving to taste.


haha, its 1-2 posts on the same topic, more of a borrow? can i backsweeten into bottles? or will this create grenades?


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## bum (16/8/10)

Look at your avatar.

Now look back to me - No.


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## manticle (16/8/10)

What don't you like about lactose, bum?

If you add it in at the beginning of fermentation there's no hint of it at the end besides a bit of sweetness. I haven't backsweetened with juice but wouldn't that change the cider flavour completely?


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## Acasta (16/8/10)

bum said:


> Look at your avatar.
> 
> Now look back to me - No.


THE CIDER IS NOW DIAMONDS!

Yeah Manticle, i was talking to a homebrewer who said he used 250g lactose, but it was a bit dry for me still. Well, its for my GF and cider mates.


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## bum (16/8/10)

manticle said:


> What don't you like about lactose, bum?
> 
> If you add it in at the beginning of fermentation there's no hint of it at the end besides a bit of sweetness. I haven't backsweetened with juice but wouldn't that change the cider flavour completely?



I do find the lactose noticeable in the finished product. It leaves a not-quite chalkiness for me. Admittedly my experience is with it in a GB but I think it'd only stand out more in a cider. And it did bugger all in the way of adding proper sweetness

You don't need to dilute it 50/50. Just enough to undercut the dryness. Calling it a "splash" might be exaggerating. But as I say hard to be specific how much works as it is "to taste". And no I don't think apple juice tastes less like cider than lactose does.


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## Acasta (16/8/10)

yeah, i see were your coming from with the addition post ferment, but I/they'll be taking it to parties and wont be bothered bringing juice and screwing around.
Easier if it tastes good out of the bottle.


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## manticle (16/8/10)

bum said:


> I do find the lactose noticeable in the finished product. It leaves a not-quite chalkiness for me. Admittedly my experience is with it in a GB but I think it'd only stand out more in a cider. And it did bugger all in the way of adding proper sweetness
> 
> You don't need to dilute it 50/50. Just enough to undercut the dryness. Calling it a "splash" might be exaggerating. But as I say hard to be specific how much works as it is "to taste". And no I don't think apple juice tastes less like cider than lactose does.




I've only ever used it in cider and stout. Not sure I'd go with it in the GB. I find it just prevents my cider being bone dry. In the stout it makes choc malt more choc. Definitely adds a bit to body and mouthfeel although with a cider that hits 998 I'm pretty happy with that.

Horses for courses

Acasta - a few ways you can sweeten cider -it's a question that gets asked a lot. Check the cider threads on Homebrewtalk and the simple/simplest cider threads here for various methods. My vote goes with the lactose as my tried and true simple method but it won't give you sweet cider - just brings it back from the edge.


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## Acasta (16/8/10)

ive heard the pear juice can help too right? and the US-05 wont ferment TOOO much?
I have beer reading the threads for a bit, but i was just checking really that what i had planned would be alright.


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## bum (16/8/10)

It'll make cider (and possibly very nice cider) but US05 should still get down to 100x - it'll still be dry.


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## Acasta (16/8/10)

hmmm, what other methods do you recommend for sweetening? besides post-ferment addition.
It doesn't have to be like lolly water or anything. Just easy to drink. Ever had pipsqueak?


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## manticle (16/8/10)

Methods I know of/have heard of for sweeter cider: 

Lactose before or after: have tried before but not after and would recommend: results not super sweet (500g in 20 L)

Other non fermentable sugar/sugar substitute before or after - splenda is often mentioned: haven't tried it, generally try and avoid artifical flavours in my brews.

Potassium sorbate or sodium metabisulphite to stop yeast action when you want: never tried it, hate sulphites and don't react well to them. Also can taste/detect them

Kegging: Haven't tried it but the most foolproof way if you have the option. Still probably needs the yeast action stopped or the racking method described below or filtering.

Racking, chilling, racking, chilling etc until all yeast has gone: never tried it, sounds really iffy and I would only do it under the guidance of someone who knew what they were doing: will only result in still cider if it doesn't blow up your shed.

Pasteurising bottles: never tried it, sounds weird and scary, some people swear by it.

Bottling early with no priming sugar and letting the natural carb do the fizz work: never tried it, sounds dangerous unless you know exactly what you are doing, probably still will give a semi-dry cider.

Add juice to glass of cider: haven't tried it, probably the safest but I don't mind the dry enough to do it. Seems like adding a bit of milo to my beer to sweeten it up (that's just my own thing to overcome -loads of people report success using this method).


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## Acasta (16/8/10)

i was just reading around and found this 
"1 kilo of brown sugar into a fermenter, pour in about eight litres of berri preservative free apple juice then swish it with a mash paddle to dissolve the sugar into the juice. Then I top it up with more juice to 20 litres, and get a SG of 1040 or so"

Recon a bit of dark brown sugar would go alright?


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## manticle (16/8/10)

Would go fine - will still ferment almost completely out though.

You can also add malt in (forgot that one) but it will be tending more towards graff than cider, depending on how much you add in. Again - never done it.


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## bum (16/8/10)

Dark brown sugar does make an impact on body in my GBs so it would add something to a cider but I'm not sure it'd be a good thing. My GBs are far from subtle and you really notice the impact of 250g and 500g is beyond overbearing to my taste.

Another thing to add to manticle's list might be stevia. There's a bit of talk on it about the place but not much in the way of results. Never used it myself.


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## Hatchy (16/8/10)

I tried using some paradise punch instead of all apple juice. I'd suggest putting it on the list of things not to try. It was sweeter than all apple juice but that's the only good thing I'll say about it. The one with some apple & pear juice & some lactose was better but was poured onto the yeast cake of the previous batch so some of the paradise punch was still there.

I should point out that I don't normally drink cider & only brew it for the missus so my opinion doesn't count for much.


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## LukeCharles (17/8/10)

manticle said:


> Order from craftbrewer online or go here: http://www.beerbelly.com.au/yeast.html
> 
> 4766 and sweet mead yeast down the bottom.
> 
> Grain and grape stock it too but their price for wyeast is slightly up on CB and the postage will probably be the same.




Thanks Manticle, 

much appreciated!!!!!

Couldn't find on the Brewcraft Website


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## Verbyla (17/8/10)

I've tried the method of filtering and kegging the cider to keep sweetness. When the gravity hit 1.016 I moved the cider into the fridge to crash chill for 2 days. Then moved it to a keg where it sat in the fridge for another day to help get rid of a little more yeast before I putting it through my keg to keg filter. Gravity ended up getting down to 1.013. Not sure if that was due to more fermentation or the temperature it was measured. Force carbed it and 4 weeks on it doesn't appear to have lost any sweetness.


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## Acasta (17/8/10)

Unfortunetly i don't have a keg or a fridge i can use just yet, so my technique will have to rely on ingredients for now.


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## smilinggilroy (17/8/10)

Acasta said:


> i was just reading around and found this
> "1 kilo of brown sugar into a fermenter, pour in about eight litres of berri preservative free apple juice then swish it with a mash paddle to dissolve the sugar into the juice. Then I top it up with more juice to 20 litres, and get a SG of 1040 or so"
> 
> Recon a bit of dark brown sugar would go alright?



Wouldn't the dark brown sugar alter the colour of the cider??
May not look too good and may alter the subtle appleflavours :unsure: 
I have used dried LME in a cider, no problems.
Would an appropriate yeast that didn't gobble up all the sugars be an answer?
I've used Wyeast 4766 cider yeast which retained the apple flavuors. It turned out dry 
but not super dry but that's for my taste.
A sweet mead yeast?? Dunno, someone with more experience may be better to answer this.
Hope this helps,
My2c,
Cheers.


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## The_Duck (17/8/10)

I have successfully used fresh juice to sweeten cider prior to serving.

This was in my keg setup and involved me using the "Presha Fruit" juice. At about $4 for 500ml's it is damned expensive but I found that I only needed about 2 bottles to knock the dryness back a few pegs. This is as close to juicing an apple into the must as you will get but has the added benefit of no nasties going into your brew. I believe the juice is all granny smith too.

As the cider was filtered, kegged and chilled (in that order), there was little to no yeast activity to worry about.

I use EC-1118 for my yeast. It's cheap, alchohol tolerant, clean but can go overly dry if you let it have it's way. Daily gravity readings after about 7 days are a must (no pun intended !)


Duck


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## w_brüz (27/1/20)

Acasta said:


> i was just reading around and found this
> "1 kilo of brown sugar into a fermenter, pour in about eight litres of berri preservative free apple juice then swish it with a mash paddle to dissolve the sugar into the juice. Then I top it up with more juice to 20 litres, and get a SG of 1040 or so"
> 
> Recon a bit of dark brown sugar would go alright?


Got a batch with Brown sugar addition brewing now 1kg to 24L of Apple Juice thinks it still gonna come out dry though, had a starting gravity of 1060, pitched a white wine yeast but after doing some research on the forums probs wanna go with a Champagne yeast for the next batch. I’m a newbie brewer and it’s my first cider attempt so we’ll see how goes


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## Elmar (28/1/20)

w_brüz said:


> Got a batch with Brown sugar addition brewing now 1kg to 24L of Apple Juice thinks it still gonna come out dry though, had a starting gravity of 1060, pitched a white wine yeast but after doing some research on the forums probs wanna go with a Champagne yeast for the next batch. I’m a newbie brewer and it’s my first cider attempt so we’ll see how goes


Have a read of this, works well for me:

https://homebrewingaustralia.net/recipe-crisp-apple-cider/


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## w_brüz (28/1/20)

Elmar said:


> Have a read of this, works well for me:
> 
> https://homebrewingaustralia.net/recipe-crisp-apple-cider/


Thanks Elmar, there’s some really great info on this link. Very helpful, cheers


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