# Tonic Water



## sinkas

Hi all,

I would like to have a keg of Tonic Water at home, has anyone played around with this?

I can't seem to find the quinine extract available online in Oz..


----------



## brettprevans

i had a look on ahb about this and only came up with 2 or 3 posts. 1 post suggested adding a 'soda stream' flavouring which replicates tonic water. thats was about the best suggestion. which i think sucks. surely someone at AHB has abetter solution. I too drink gallons of tonic water (diet tonic water because of course im looking after my waistline :lol: ) and would love a keg of it. so anyone got any better idea than soda stream flavour? or where to get quinine extract?


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

What a great idea!

Good artical here - Linky

Might get Dad to fire up his still and start pumping out vodka again. Ahhhh a pint of V&T........


----------



## troydo

PFFT!

G & T All the way... with a slice of lime!


----------



## bugwan

Troydo said:


> PFFT!
> 
> G & T All the way... with a slice of lime!



Make mine a Bombay Sapphire.

...I'll also accept Tanqueray.


----------



## sinkas

It seems that amoungs cocktail aficionado's there is a trend toward making "house tonic" but the porblem for us, is no one seems to sell the chinchona powder, but lets try and find a solution, preferably an, innovative, multimedia, flexible, mobile, eco+ solution


----------



## Fents

bugwan said:


> Make mine a Bombay Sapphire.
> 
> ...I'll also accept Tanqueray.




man knows!


----------



## brettprevans

Quinine dihydrochloride, Quinine sulphate are also whats used. its the natural? form of chinchona powder (which i think is actually spelt cinchona)

this place sells Cinchona bark (red) www.dandelionbotanical.com/bulkCD.html

this site  tells you that you can apparently use quinine to trat hemmoroids. yuck. came across it doing some research on quinine.

this is off an Aus medicine website re concentration
Quinidine C - Concentration must not exceed 10 mg/kg or 10 mg/L or 0.001%.
Quinine C - MRDD must not exceed 50 mg.


----------



## Kai

I'd love to make my own tonic water so I could have something that was not ridiculously sweet.

Love the GT's, give me Bombay, Tanq or Hendricks and make it a little cucumber rather than lime.


----------



## tangent

Cucumber only in the Hendricks for me thanks Kai, otherwise bring it on! You guys have good taste in gin


----------



## troydo

mmm bombay!


----------



## InCider

I've always felt like an outsider because of my penchant for Gin. I like 'InCredible Hulks'

Pint glass
Dash or two of Tanq or BSaph Gin
Dash of GI Lime 
Top up with water - tonic or tap.

InCider.


----------



## stoutdrinker

Keep searching guys! 
Surely it cant be too hard to find a good recipe?

My household consumes large quantities of tonic over summer and to have it on tap would be great!

Cheers,

Stout.


----------



## ausdb

Fents said:


> man knows!


+2 me and Mrs ausdb!


----------



## kirem

I can't believe how much of this stuff I am going through. G&T is made for this weather.

I have the small batch gin covered, but I go through so much tonic that I need to start making it myself.

OT a little, one of the other winemakers and I entered an internal competition to produce a 'new' wine style (Max Medal after the late Max Schubert of Grange fame), first round judged at cellar door by customers then the final four get judged by the experienced wine show judges in the company and a splash of marketing people.

Well we got down to the final four (not bad for a hot climate wine) and our prize was $500 at Prince wine store, we spent it ALL on gin and the two of us had a taste off over the Christmas break. G&T have always been a favourite starter and finisher when we go out for dinner. Henricks won the day, closely followed by Tanqueray and sapphire.

So back on topic, did anyone find a source of quinine or a substitute?


----------



## sinkas

no i HOPED SOMEONE WOUDL DO THE LEGWORK FOFR ME, , i enquired at a few naturopathic supply places, and its available buyt is controlled, probably ewasier fto get it via USA


----------



## kirem

I get my botanicals from herbies, I had a look on herbies online and there is nothing there. I might email them and ask.


----------



## kirem

Quinine is a controlled substance, (or more accurately "drug paraphanelia",) because it is so often used as a "diluents and adulterants" to other drugs.


----------



## sinkas

sorry abou the spelling, I have access to controlled substances, so that's not a problem, ill try and track some down for a bulk buy


----------



## MarkEinOz

Interesting site 
http://www.jeffreymorgenthaler.com/2008/ho...wn-tonic-water/

In a nutshell the recipe is;

4 cups water
1 cup chopped lemongrass (roughly one large stalk)
cup powdered cinchona bark
zest and juice of 1 orange
zest and juice of 1 lemon
zest and juice of 1 lime
1 tsp whole allspice berries
cup citric acid
tsp Kosher salt


----------



## kirem

sinkas said:


> sorry abou the spelling, I have access to controlled substances, so that's not a problem, ill try and track some down for a bulk buy



Ahh yeah, I forgot what you do for a crust. Thanks sinkas. My sister is in the same line of work and did think to ask her.

the web has a few recipes and few online forums that have developed recipes.

I wonder if the raw cinchona powder is controlled or if it is just the extracted quinine.


----------



## kirem

available outside Australia from;

http://www.rain-tree.com/quinine-powder.htm

and another place www.zooscape.com that I can't get to work atm.

I can't find an official gov web site to see if it is illegal to import.


----------



## sinkas

OK Just bought a pound, will let you know if it makes it into the country


----------



## captaincleanoff

i got heaps of Schweppes 1.25l tonics at wollies the other day for 99c each... is it really worth kegging?


----------



## kirem

captaincleanoff said:


> i got heaps of Schweppes 1.25l tonics at wollies the other day for 99c each... is it really worth kegging?



I can get VB cans for $10/carton is it worth making beer?


----------



## captaincleanoff

kirem said:


> I can get VB cans for $10/carton is it worth making beer?



you can get VB cans for $10 a carton? where? 

1.25l for 99c.. bit cheaper than beer.


----------



## kirem

captaincleanoff said:


> you can get VB cans for $10 a carton? where?
> 
> 1.25l for 99c.. bit cheaper than beer.



I work for the man, so in fact it is part of my benefits and probably works out less than $10/carton. I normally get cascade or stella for family and friends that haven't seen the light yet. I still choose to make my own beer

My point is good tonic water is A LOT better than even schweppes and you can taylor the sugar/bitterness balance to your own taste (just like beer). Not sure if it is available in Aus yet, but Q water is pretty good stuff.


----------



## Quintrex

kirem said:


> I work for the man, so in fact it is part of my benefits and probably works out less than $10/carton. I normally get cascade or stella for family and friends that haven't seen the light yet. I still choose to make my own beer
> 
> My point is good tonic water is A LOT better than even schweppes and you can taylor the sugar/bitterness balance to your own taste (just like beer). Not sure if it is available in Aus yet, but Q water is pretty good stuff.



Q water is 'bittered" with agave if I recall correctly? not too sweet either. Lemme know if you find a local supplier


----------



## kirem

Quintrex said:


> Q water is 'bittered" with agave if I recall correctly? not too sweet either. Lemme know if you find a local supplier



yes it has agave - it is the sweet component, the bitter component is quinine. I am pretty sure agave is a type of cactus the same as is used in tequilla production.

I got it wrong, it is actaully called Q Tonic http://www.qtonic.com/


----------



## MarkEinOz

kirem said:


> available outside Australia from;
> 
> http://www.rain-tree.com/quinine-powder.htm
> 
> and another place www.zooscape.com that I can't get to work atm.
> 
> I can't find an official gov web site to see if it is illegal to import.




I am checking with a Naturopathy friend, as a controlled herbal medicine, she can probably order a stack in. I'll let you know.


----------



## kirem

thanks mark, I gave the tonic a nudge tonight!


----------



## Bizier

43 in the shade today, and I was heard to remark that I would love nothing more than a large cold glass of G&T. My ol' boy also got given a huge amount of fresh cucumbers and zucchinis from a farmer, so I was explaining how good it would go with Hendricks.. Mmmm mmmm.

That's it... I am making a martini.


----------



## ArnieW

I'm following this thread with great interest - I'd love to make my own tonic as well and tried some of those US sites about a year ago only to get stuck - one would only deliver into the US, and another site fell over, and another one wanted over $100 US to deliver  

So thanks guys for being resourceful and digging deeper. When I'm not drinking beer, G&T is my choice bevvy.


----------



## brettprevans

sinkas let us know hgow you go with the quinnine. Im still not keen on using sodastream tonic flavouring. Id certainly buy a stack off you as I go through 4-5L a week.

I had a search/investigation into buying from herb stockists etc but never got anywhere. obviously its just one of those things. If someone did manage to find the quinoa tree (or whatever it is from) then im sure theres anough of us to buy the tree and make cuttings.

all things being equal much easier to get the dried ready to use stuff.


----------



## kirem

Dear Kirk,
You will find information on this website:
http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/ 

View attachment 24656


and regarding the legality of importing, look at the Australian Quarantine website:
http://www.daffa.gov.au/aqis 

Kind Regards

Herbie.
Herbie's Spices
[email protected] www.herbies.com.au
Spicery & Office:
4/25 Arizona Road, CHARMHAVEN, NSW, 2263, AUSTRALIA
Tel: +61 2 4392 9422 Fax: +61 2 4392 9433
Retail Shop:
745 Darling Street, ROZELLE, NSW, 2039, AUSTRALIA
Tel: +61 2 9555 6035 Fax: +61 2 9555 6037
Herbie's Spices is a division of Hemphill Pty Ltd ABN: 75 077 549 583


----------



## brettprevans

well that blows. I guess the whole of AHB is waiting to see how sinkas does.


----------



## kirem

any news Sinkas?


----------



## katzke

kirem said:


> any news Sinkas?



I can not believe you have so much trouble finding the stuff down there. I did some looking and Australia is one of the big growers or was of the stuff. The sites I looked at made it sound like every back yard had a tree growing in it.

Is it not the bark you want or just the pure powder that does not turn the drink brown?


----------



## scott_penno

Reading the Food Standards document, Chinchona (quinine) appears in Schedule 2 which 'lists the species of plants and fungi that may not be used in food except as a source of a flavouring substance'. As this is for flavouring, this would be OK wouldn't it? There is also reference to Standard 1.4.1 which lists the maximum safe level for use.

sap.


----------



## Quintrex

Ahem... Bulkbuy anyone  





http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/20980457...rk_extract.html


----------



## brettprevans

sinkas, Mark...any news?


----------



## sinkas

quarantine caught my package


----------



## kirem

what did they say?


----------



## Fermented

Guys - possibly not worth it. 

I had a post-immune reaction which caused my platelets count to drop to 4 (normal is 200 to 400). The post immune reaction was a result of being hit by two kinds of glandular fever (I didn't even notice them) in less than six months, according to the blood work. 

It was exacerbated by tonic water according the to the Prof at Price of Wales - I had been having three or four G&T every couple of days for the previous few weeks prior to noticing something was wrong (peeing blood). 

He noted that consuming large amounts of tonic water can cause the platelet drop condition on its own. Wet purpura (blood pooling in small spots, visible at the wrists and ankles and elsewhere) and the risk of bleeding to death from a fall exceeds my desire for a truly great G&T. If steroid and gammaglobulin therapy fails to shutdown and restart the immune system correctly, it's time for a spleenectomy. I recovered fine in four days but was forbidden to leave the house for two weeks after that. 

Just be very, very careful on the quinine dose if you succeed in this project.

Beer, anyone?

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## brettprevans

holy sh*t. dude hope you recover. hmmm me thinks this i not a ood projevt to pursue but then agin i still drink 4 1.25L bottles a week. maybe i should switch to mineral water.


----------



## sinkas

its a prohibited imprt due to the fact its too hard to make pest free, they dotn acre abotu the controlled substance side of it, its being destroyed.


----------



## Fermented

citymorgue2 said:


> holy sh*t. dude hope you recover. hmmm me thinks this i not a ood projevt to pursue but then agin i still drink 4 1.25L bottles a week. maybe i should switch to mineral water.


Recovered fine. This was a few years ago, but have been warned to stay off the tonic water. I like keeping my internal organs internal. 

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## glenos

sinkas said:


> its a prohibited imprt due to the fact its too hard to make pest free, they dotn acre abotu the controlled substance side of it, its being destroyed.


Can't you just get it irradiated and then receive it?

Wont be cheap.


----------



## Muggus

Fermented said:


> Guys - possibly not worth it.
> 
> I had a post-immune reaction which caused my platelets count to drop to 4 (normal is 200 to 400). The post immune reaction was a result of being hit by two kinds of glandular fever (I didn't even notice them) in less than six months, according to the blood work.
> 
> It was exacerbated by tonic water according the to the Prof at Price of Wales - I had been having three or four G&T every couple of days for the previous few weeks prior to noticing something was wrong (peeing blood).
> 
> He noted that consuming large amounts of tonic water can cause the platelet drop condition on its own. Wet purpura (blood pooling in small spots, visible at the wrists and ankles and elsewhere) and the risk of bleeding to death from a fall exceeds my desire for a truly great G&T. If steroid and gammaglobulin therapy fails to shutdown and restart the immune system correctly, it's time for a spleenectomy. I recovered fine in four days but was forbidden to leave the house for two weeks after that.
> 
> Just be very, very careful on the quinine dose if you succeed in this project.
> 
> Beer, anyone?
> 
> Cheers - Fermented.


That's hectic!
Definately a substance not to be taken lightly. 

I recall hearing somewhere, that quinine glows in UV light. That kinda freaks me out enough to be cautious of drinking tonic water to begin with!


----------



## Fermented

Yes, it does... that's one of the things that got me hooked on G&T at the old "Test Tube Factory" in Martin Place, late 1980s.

The place was bathed in UV light to show off the UV reactive murals and fixtures. G&T had this amazing slightly lavender glow. Well cool for attracting a friendly lass for the night. 

Cheers - Fermented.


----------



## kirem

Fermented said:


> Yes, it does... that's one of the things that got me hooked on G&T at the old "Test Tube Factory" in Martin Place, late 1980s.



I used to go to the one in the cross in the early 90s. It was stumbling distance to bed from there. Always felt fine in there, open the door and get hit by fresh air and you would just about fall over.


----------



## brettprevans

DOcs still recomend tonic water for a range of symptoms such as cramps, and stomach issues. my mother in law was recomeneded to drink it but she doesnt like it. I love it. doesnt seem to help me thought.

damn addictive stuff and its not even alcaholic!


----------



## Red Island - David

Hello All,

I'm new to this however I just wanted to let you know that QTonic is now available in Australia. I have attached some info and what it looks like, which I must say is a very sexy packaging and the taste is amazing by itself, with high end Gins (Hendrick's) or even good vodka(Belvedere)... It is only new to Australia so availability is still very low however any outlets that you would like to see the product at please let me know and we will see what we can do. Also if you want it direct please email me and we can send it to you...

Cheers

David 

View attachment Q_Tonic_Sales_Sheet_2009.pdf


----------



## kirem

Red Island - David said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I'm new to this however I just wanted to let you know that QTonic is now available in Australia. I have attached some info and what it looks like, which I must say is a very sexy packaging and the taste is amazing by itself, with high end Gins (Hendrick's) or even good vodka(Belvedere)... It is only new to Australia so availability is still very low however any outlets that you would like to see the product at please let me know and we will see what we can do. Also if you want it direct please email me and we can send it to you...
> 
> Cheers
> 
> David



You bloody beauty!


----------



## pdilley

I ended up drinking tonic water on its own because it was so good. Not so great in large quantity due to the salt in it. I also preferred the diet tonic to the one with sugar in it. It can be addictive.  Alas I haven't had one in over a year. May have to get a bottle next time in the shops.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Philthy79

Just wondering if anyone had any luck with this (apart from Fermented!)

I have seen Toms Handrcrafted syrup http://www.tomshandcrafted.com/tonic.html but I cant justify paying the $60+ postage.

I dont think the soda stream mix quite works.

Phil


----------



## Nick JD

Do you have malaria?


----------



## Philthy79

...no, but have had Dengue fever...

:icon_cheers:


----------



## enuun

Aquavit and T is the way to go! with a curly ginger strip


----------



## Thirsty Boy

America for holidays in May - Toms handcrafted tonic to bring home ... i will also try for some chinchona bark, I'll go for +1kg and then distribute to a few of those who are keen once I get back here ... but expect customs to take it off me anyway, so we'll see.


----------



## benno1973

I have a lead on Cinchona bark in tincture form - would that do? Am still enquiring if I can get the bark though...


----------



## benno1973

Ok, Newtons Pharmacy in Sydney have Cinchona bark in tincture form. They don't sell the bark, as it's difficult to obtain and they need it to make the tincture with, however they are going to sell me 100g of the bark to play with, and they think they may be able to obtain more bark in the future for direct sale. Not sure how much 100g will make, but it will be good for some experimentation. I also ordered some of the tincture to mess around with, to see if that's a viable option.

The prices for the tincture are:
50ml - $10.45
100ml - $19.32
200ml - $35.20
500ml - $67.80

I also emailed Koda Phytorium and got the following response:



> unfortunately we have not been able to source it and as soon as we can it will appear on our website.


----------



## brettprevans

Any idea of how much tincture to water to make tonic?


----------



## benno1973

citymorgue2 said:


> Any idea of how much tincture to water to make tonic?



No, I'm going to experiment a bit to see if it's viable using the tincture.


----------



## brettprevans

Kaiser Soze said:


> No, I'm going to experiment a bit to see if it's viable using the tincture.


Sorry I miaread ur post. experiment away. We await with baited breath.


----------



## Philthy79

citymorgue2 said:


> We await with baited breath.



Indeed we do!


----------



## benno1973

Hasn't arrived yet unfortunately. Still waiting. <_<


----------



## benno1973

OK, so I finally got around to having a crack at some tonic water yesterday, after being laid up in bed sick for a couple of days. I followed and slightly adapted this recipe on a blog I found. Most recipes I found seemed vaguely the same in terms of ingredients, just varied on the amounts and cooking process.

Anyway, the final recipe I used was

4 cups water
1 cup chopped lemongrass
25g cinchona bark
zest of 1 orange
zest of 1 lemon
zest of 1 lime
1 tsp whole allspice berries
0.25 cup citric acid
3.5 cups sugar





First, prepare all the dry ingredients except for the sugar. I skipped the juices of the lemon, lime and orange only because my brain was frazzled and I possibly can't read a recipe correctly.




Add all ingredients plus the water to a pot and simmer for 20 minutes. The mixture will slowly turn brown/red taking on the colour from the cinchona bark and allspice. The smell was... amazing.




Pour the contents into a coffee plunger and press to separate the solids, and then pour the liquid back into the saucepan. Return to the heat and add a cup of sugar for each cup of liquid (in this case, I had 3.5 cups of liquid). Stir until the sugar is dissolved.




Finally bottle the syrup and store in the fridge. When using, mix syrup:soda water at a 1:4 ratio.

And the taste? Incredibly good. This is a great tasting tonic, quite floral but with the perfect amount of quinine bitterness. More citrus would be nice, as would a little more lemongrass, so I'd suggest adding more lemongrass if you can.

I'm still to make a version with the tincture. I'm going to try exactly the same recipe to see if using the tincture replicates the flavour, but I'm still waiting to hear back from the supplier about the equivalent amounts of tincture to bark.

And the money shot (not my photo, taken by my friend on her iphone)


----------



## brettprevans

well thats great news. except for the sugar. i drink the diet tonic and prefer the taste without sugar. but good news

how about another test without all the other stuff. just water and cinchona?


----------



## benno1973

I'll give that a shot if you'd like. I think it would taste pretty horrible, as the quinine has a pretty bitter flavour to it. It'd be much like mixing bitters and water I'd imagine, but I'll give it a go and see. To be honest, I think it'd taste better with the other ingredients if you're going to omit the sugar, as it needs a citrus hit, and the citric acid gives it a tang.

I totally understand about the sugar thing. I was trying to make something low in sugar myself, but first I wanted to make as per the recipe to have a baseline. I'll try reducing the sugar, and I'll also try substituting agave nectar and stevia for the sugar component. At the end of the day, if it tastes shit without the sugar, I can always add sugar syrup back into it until it tastes ok. As an aside, the taste of the recipe I made was incredible, but I'd imagine it would be fine with less sugar. It was quite sweet.

Any other requests for experiments?


----------



## benno1973

I forgot to add, the 100g of bark cost $18 delivered and it'd make somewhere around 5L of the syrup. Mixed at 1:4, that's about 25L of tonic water and given the low cost of the other ingredients, it'd be fair to say that you could probably make tonic for around $1/L which is slightly cheaper than store bought I think? (and much tastier).


----------



## Philthy79

Kaiser Soze said:


> Any other requests for experiments?




Not from me. Brilliant work, brilliant! 

:beerbang:


----------



## Philthy79

Kaiser, 

Where did you get the bark from?


----------



## benno1973

Newton's Pharmacy in Sydney, but I had to beg


----------



## Philthy79

Ah yes, sorry.. didn't read your previous post correctly.


----------



## brettprevans

Kaiser Soze said:


> I'll give that a shot if you'd like. I think it would taste pretty horrible, as the quinine has a pretty bitter flavour to it. It'd be much like mixing bitters and water I'd imagine, but I'll give it a go and see. To be honest, I think it'd taste better with the other ingredients if you're going to omit the sugar, as it needs a citrus hit, and the citric acid gives it a tang.
> 
> I totally understand about the sugar thing. I was trying to make something low in sugar myself, but first I wanted to make as per the recipe to have a baseline. I'll try reducing the sugar, and I'll also try substituting agave nectar and stevia for the sugar component. At the end of the day, if it tastes shit without the sugar, I can always add sugar syrup back into it until it tastes ok. As an aside, the taste of the recipe I made was incredible, but I'd imagine it would be fine with less sugar. It was quite sweet.
> 
> Any other requests for experiments?


i was just thinking that 'normal' tonic doesnt have all that stuff. isnt it just water and quinine?




Kaiser Soze said:


> ......you could probably make tonic for around $1/L which is slightly cheaper than store bought I think? (and much tastier).....


bugger. coles tonic is under $1. yes i know home made will taste infinitely better, but i was hoping for a cheaper options than buying 3 bottles of tonic a week. still it would be worth at least 1 keg for the novelty


----------



## Philthy79

citymorgue2 said:


> bugger. coles tonic is under $1. yes i know home made will taste infinitely better, but i was hoping for a cheaper options than buying 3 bottles of tonic a week. still it would be worth at least 1 keg for the novelty




Coles tonic is, but Q Tonic and Fever Tree go for about $3 per 275ml(ish). 

http://qtonic.com/

http://www.fever-tree.com/drinks.php


----------



## brettprevans

Philthy79 said:


> Coles tonic is, but Q Tonic and Fever Tree go for about $3 per 275ml(ish).
> 
> http://qtonic.com/
> 
> http://www.fever-tree.com/drinks.php


oh right im with you now. havent had either. i assume Q Tonic fever tree have those other type ingrediants in them? 

I just drink tonic like i do water and go through 3 x 1.25L bottles a week. I like the bitterness


----------



## Philthy79

To be honest i'm not entirely sure - but what I do know is that most of the tonic water out there uses a synthetic quinine...and if I drunk as much tonic as you I'd prob do the same as you do as well.


----------



## benno1973

The ingredients list for Schweppes Indian Tonic water is listed as



> Carbonated water, sugar, citric acid, flavourings (including quinine), sweetener (sodium saccharin)



So there's citric acid for the 'zing' factor (used quite often in cordials I hear so they don't taste so flat), sugar (of course) and the mysterious 'flavourings'. This can be any number of things, and I assume represents the rest of the ingredients in the recipe.

As far as I know, Schweppes is one of the few brands to still use real quinine in their tonic, but I think they use very little and add bitterness from other sources to complement it. That's all hearsay though, I have no proof to back that up.

Still, CM2, I have been thinking about your idea of just doing water and cinchona. Might be a good experiment to see what the cinchona actually brings to the party. Obviously the bitterness is one thing, but I wonder if there's a unique taste associated with it as well? If not, it might just be easier to make tonic with a different bittering agent. I mean, bitter lemon uses lemon rind and pith to add an extra bitterness to the drink, so that's an option. Angostura bitters uses gentian root which might be easier to come by. Hell, it might just be possible to add some Angostura bitters instead. Some brands of bitters use Cinchona as an ingredient. Wikipedia says that artichoke leaf can be used as a bittering agent. Lots of options.

Or perhaps that's just tonic water blasphemy.


----------



## Philthy79

Kaiser Soze said:


> Or perhaps that's just tonic water blasphemy.








Meh.. i wouldn't say so.. as you mentioned theres the 'mysterious flavourings'..and as long it has Quinine.


----------



## manticle

Kaiser Soze said:


> Any other requests for experiments?



Yes.

Materials: 750mL Hendricks, Bombay Sapphire or Tanqueray
750mL Kaiser Soze Homemade Tonic Water

Method: Acquire manticle's postal details, preferably by PM. Post all materials to specified address.
Manticle will make tinctures of material ingredients and test using a special genetic spectropalatometer.

Results: Happy manticle


----------



## benno1973

I only have 1L bottles of Tanq - what to do?


----------



## manticle

The experimental parameters can be flexible when needed.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

i want the cinchona and to try for "real" tonic.

But if we are talking about substitute bittering agents to use instead of tonic?? Then well - i think that on a home brewing forum we could think of one, really obvious bittering substance that we could try....

I might use that recipe and sub in some iso extract for cinchona - Hop Tonic!!

my idea... if any other clever bastard gets rich on it, they owe me royalties and a lifetime supply of Gin and Tonics OK.


----------



## benno1973

I managed to do a bit of experimenting yesterday...

Firstly, CM2, I tried just boiling some of the bark in water and tasting that. I did a reduced size boil, still for 20 minutes and then strained it. The smell was quite herbal and floral, so obviously that floral component I got from the last time I made it came from the bark rather than the allspice berries. It's not a smell that I associate with commercial tonic, but still very nice. And the taste? Like arse. It's mouth curlingly bitter - one of those flavours that you just want to keep spitting into the sink. There's no way you'd want to drink this without adding truckloads of sugar, and if you're doing that, you may as well add all the other ingredients too.

Secondly, while I had a simple cinchona/water extract, I thought I'd play around with the tincture and see if I could determine the strength of the cinchona in that, to see if it's viable for use in making tonic water. I took a small sample of the boiled extract in one glass, and 20ml of water in another glass. To the 20ml of water I added the cinchona tincture 1ml at a time until the colour matched. At 6ml of tincture, the colour was around the same, however the taste was far less bitter. As well as that, the smell was completely different - it smelled like a bitter rose water rather than the herbal notes of the boiled extract. Even after boiling the tincture/water mix (to drive off some of the ethanol), the smell was the same - definitely not as good.

So at the end of the day the tincture isn't viable. It'd take far too much tincture, cost too much and be a poor substitute for the real thing.

Back to playing around with recipes today. I think I can cut back on the amount of cinchona bark used, as the flavour seems to overpower all the other ingredients in the mix. I might sub in some lemon pith to keep the bitterness (something like a bitter lemon drink) and reduce the cinchona down to 15g.

TB - was it you who was going to the US this year?


----------



## benno1973

Thirsty Boy said:


> I might use that recipe and sub in some iso extract for cinchona - Hop Tonic!!



Could you use hop flowers/pellets? I gather extraction of the acids is pH influenced, but is there more to it than that?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Kaiser Soze said:


> Could you use hop flowers/pellets? I gather extraction of the acids is pH influenced, but is there more to it than that?



yeah, I'm going to have a crack at it tomorrow and I'll use some pellets - i was thinking about a rough and ready type experiment to see if "hop" bitterness would even come close to substituting.

I'll use say 25g of millenium pellets in the same recipe as you, then just trim it up with extract to get the bitterness high enough if its too low - if it needs a lot of extract, next time I'll use more pellets.

Still - 25g of 13.5%AA hops gives a calculated bitterness of 1200IBUs to 1000ml of liquid - so from a 4:1 mix of syrup to soda that makes the "tonic water" have a calculated bitterness of 300ibu..... now we all know it wont be that bitter, but I reckon it will be bitter enough without too much extract. only one way to find out.

going to the US - have someone official looking into whether I'll be able to bring back cinchona bark or not.


----------



## benno1973

Before I saw your reply, I gave it a go myself. Unfortunately too little hop bitterness on that run, but I only used `10g of Cascade at 7.8%. Too sweet with not enough bitterness. Next time I'll up the hops and reduce the sugar (I added 3 cups last time). Still very nice and the hop character comes through.


----------



## 3GumsBrewing

Well this little thread has progressed alot since I last visited! Fantastic stuff guys.

I went the cheats route and bought the soadastream tonic from BigW $3.50 on sale.
It said it would make 12L, so I did a bit of experimentation and found it was quite palatable at 11.25L.

Home made(sort of) Tonic water. Gin or Vodka. Great stuff


----------



## Philthy79

I ordered my Cinchona this morning, looking forward to trying it out when it arrives. Thanks everyone for all your help.

:icon_cheers:


----------



## brettprevans

DK said:


> Well this little thread has progressed alot since I last visited! Fantastic stuff guys.
> 
> I went the cheats route and bought the soadastream tonic from BigW $3.50 on sale.
> It said it would make 12L, so I did a bit of experimentation and found it was quite palatable at 11.25L.
> 
> Home made(sort of) Tonic water. Gin or Vodka. Great stuff


given i drink shite laods of tonic, perhaps this is better way to go. I cant afford a keg of tonic made from Cinchona 

when you say it was pallatable, do you mean it was getting too weak in flavour past that point, or it just started to taste good at that volume?


----------



## benno1973

I am about to order some Cinchona bark from Newton's again. Does anyone want any? I am in Perth so happy to have people come pick it up, or also happy to post for the cost of postage. Price is around $5 for 25g, which would make around 4-5L of tonic water. Not sure how much they can spare for me, but if anyone wants any, let me know by Wednesday (when I place my order) and I'll let you know how I go. Happy to order in 25g increments.


----------



## evildrakey

Kaiser Soze said:


> I am about to order some Cinchona bark from Newton's again. Does anyone want any? I am in Perth so happy to have people come pick it up, or also happy to post for the cost of postage. Price is around $5 for 25g, which would make around 4-5L of tonic water. Not sure how much they can spare for me, but if anyone wants any, let me know by Wednesday (when I place my order) and I'll let you know how I go. Happy to order in 25g increments.



Newtons? Do they sell other herbal oddities other than Cinchona?


----------



## benno1973

evildrakey said:


> Newtons? Do they sell other herbal oddities other than Cinchona?



Yep, they have loads of herbal stuff. Check out their website... http://www.newtonspharmacy.com.au/


----------



## ploto

manticle said:


> Yes.
> 
> Materials: 750mL Hendricks, Bombay Sapphire or Tanqueray
> 750mL Kaiser Soze Homemade Tonic Water
> 
> Method: Acquire manticle's postal details, preferably by PM. Post all materials to specified address.
> Manticle will make tinctures of material ingredients and test using a special genetic spectropalatometer.
> 
> Results: Happy manticle


Sorry mate, they were fresh out of Tanqueray. Found something else in a green bottle though.




I'd just like to point out that the Sapphire & Hendricks are the real things, none of that watered down for the colonies muck round here!

So I'd better have a twirl at making a tonic worthy of this little collection. I will try to make a trip out to Newton's and see if they can spare me 25g of the bark. I have lemon grass growing out the back and the recipes on the net look pretty straight forward, and sound oh-so delicious.

Bloody hot day in Sydney today, might have to crack that blue bottle shortly...


----------



## benno1973

Just a heads up on this... I ordered 500g of the bark from Newtons this morning for a few people around Perth. They seemed happy to spare it and sounding willing to spare more if required, so if you need some, try giving them a call. Their email response times suck sometimes, so calling is probably the best option. As mentioned, $18.60/100g.

I made some more on the weekend, with more lime, no lemon, less orange and less sugar (2.5 cups to 1L). Tasted a little dry but still delicious. Then I added some Tanq and it was awesome - the gin adds it's own sweetness, so that was exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## Philthy79

I made a batch on the weekend as well..

I only added the zest and juice of a lime; no lemon or orande and added about 5 crushed juniper berries and only 3/4 of the sugar. I did however simmer for 30 or so minutes and it reduced quite a bit... so I added an extra 300 ml of water to bring my total tonic syrup up to 1 litre.

It turned out pretty good, not as much citrus overtones; SWMBO had a sip and said "it's more tonic-ey"


----------



## benno1973

Nice one!

Hmmm... juniper berries hey? I have some there... might try them.

Have also been toying with adding some cardomon pods.


----------



## Philthy79

Yeah - its going to sound stupid but it made it more dry.

Cardomon pods! Brilliant! That'll be going in the next batch.


----------



## sim

Slightly off topic, just out of curiosity does anyone know how they get the cucumber into Hendricks Gin? Do they ferment cucumbers, or just steep them in the gin?


----------



## benno1973

Apparently the addition of cucumber essence at the end of the process (not sure how cucumber essence is made though). Interesting read on the wiki page about the whole process...


----------



## Quintrex

sim said:


> Slightly off topic, just out of curiosity does anyone know how they get the cucumber into Hendricks Gin? Do they ferment cucumbers, or just steep them in the gin?



When I've made.... err tinkered with gin before, hoping for something hendricks-ish I peeled the cucumber and steeped the peel in the gin.

Good cucumber flavour, no colour extraction.


----------



## sim

hmm, true.

...Nearly made a cucumber lager last week :icon_cheers: Chickened out when the whole box of cucumbers turned yellow!

:icon_offtopic:


----------



## daverobertson84

So I recently stumbled upon Jeffrey Morgenthaler's tonic recipe, and my search for cinchona bark led me here. Newtons in Sydney is now charging $30 for 50g since they have apparently lost their supplier - bit steep for me... So as anyone found a more reliable source? I'm a little hesitant to order from the US, it seems customs will be all over it


----------



## Maheel

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...em=150796633666

Cinchona Bark - 4oz Liquid Extract - Pure Herbs


----------



## benno1973

I've used the tincture extract before and it wasn't very good. Wasn't very strong, and had a different sort of taste. I wouldn't recommend it.

A shame that Newtons have jacked their price up. I ordered 1/2kg recently and distributed to various people around Perth, and it was still $18/100g, so they've effectively tripled their price. I've heard of someone in Melbourne who is doing some paperwork to import it - I'll chase that up and see if it comes through.


----------



## daverobertson84

Kaiser Soze said:


> I've used the tincture extract before and it wasn't very good. Wasn't very strong, and had a different sort of taste. I wouldn't recommend it.
> 
> A shame that Newtons have jacked their price up. I ordered 1/2kg recently and distributed to various people around Perth, and it was still $18/100g, so they've effectively tripled their price. I've heard of someone in Melbourne who is doing some paperwork to import it - I'll chase that up and see if it comes through.



Awesome, I'll definitely keep an eye on this thread then. 

I'm also a little skeptical of using the extract, I think I'll hold out for the real thing. I'm also tempted to just buy it from the US and risk getting it through customs. This place http://www.healthyvillage.com/product_details/366.html has it for 18.80 a pound + they don't charge any extra on top of standard shipping from the states which seems to be about $20. Think there's any chance it'd get through?


----------



## benno1973

I wouldn't even try IMHO. 

Firstly, there's a big risk that you'll lose your money. 

Secondly, you'll be importing something into Australia that hasn't been processed by quarantine, and they have reasons for these things being banned. You could unwittingly introduce some sort of pest into Australia, which although it isn't your intention, it is a possibility. The reason that Cinchona is available from *some* places is because it has been properly treated/fumigated/whatever by AQIS.

Thirdly, you run the risk of getting into0 trouble for willingly trying to import a substance that is on the AQIS list.

Hold out for some available in Aus, it'll be around, might just take time.


----------



## daverobertson84

Kaiser Soze said:


> I wouldn't even try IMHO.
> 
> Firstly, there's a big risk that you'll lose your money.
> 
> Secondly, you'll be importing something into Australia that hasn't been processed by quarantine, and they have reasons for these things being banned. You could unwittingly introduce some sort of pest into Australia, which although it isn't your intention, it is a possibility. The reason that Cinchona is available from *some* places is because it has been properly treated/fumigated/whatever by AQIS.
> 
> Thirdly, you run the risk of getting into0 trouble for willingly trying to import a substance that is on the AQIS list.
> 
> Hold out for some available in Aus, it'll be around, might just take time.



Sounds like good advice, I guess I'll just stick with Schweppes tonic for the time being


----------



## vovo

daverobertson84 said:


> Sounds like good advice, I guess I'll just stick with Schweppes tonic for the time being



Hi guys any luck finding a new and reasonably priced supplier? Newtons seems a little steep.


----------



## benno1973

I understand it's gone well up in price since I bought it. I haven't seen it anywhere else recently.


----------



## vovo

Kaiser Soze said:


> I understand it's gone well up in price since I bought it. I haven't seen it anywhere else recently.



That's a shame, had a few GnTs in the states last month made using quinine syrup and they were very good.


----------



## brettprevans

vovo said:


> That's a shame, had a few GnTs in the states last month made using quinine syrup and they were very good.


Where did u but quinine syrup from? Maybe we can import it.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

i brought some chincona bark powder back from the US last time i was there. Purchased in a retail hippy herbs and crap shop in Seattle. Made sure it was packed into a clear plastic bag, sealed by a sticker with the shop's name and address etc, kept the receipt. Made sure i knew what it was (ie the botanical name of the tree, where it was originally grown etc) so that when the quarantine guys asked the "what the hell is that?" question - i had a good answer.

On arrival at customs - declared it and after it was inspected ("not sure about this, hang on while I call my supervisor...") and they determined that it was bought retail in the US - they were perfectly at ease with letting me bring it in.

I think the fact that it was powdered and not simply rough cut bark made a difference - I had a chat with the quarantine guy and he expresed some serious doubt as to whether they would have let me bring it in if it had been unprocessed tree bark.

Haven't used it to make tonic yet - but I have a soda syphon coming for xmas and between the powder and a bottle of MHB's excellent pre-made tonic flavouring, summertime G&Ts are looking nicely sorted 

TB


----------



## vovo

citymorgue2 said:


> Where did u but quinine syrup from? Maybe we can import it.



Was in a bar unfortunately, I have a feeling cost will prohibit it.


----------



## benno1973

Where are you located vovo?


----------



## vovo

Kaiser Soze said:


> Where are you located vovo?


I am in Brisbane.

I think this might have been the syrup. https://www.cocktailkingdom.com/mobile/default.aspx#P37671


----------



## dans

Hi all,

I usually live in the states and have been buying Cinchona bark and making my own tonic syrup for a while now. Its *really* worth it. I use Jeffery Morgenthalers recipe as a base, but ease up on the citric acid because it was too bitter for me. 

I've been so sad not to be able to make it here in Melbourne, until I found your thread. Even though Newtown has jacked up their prices, I'm still ordering some, its just so much better than anything you can buy in a bottle. Q is very good, but incredibly expensive.

Good luck to you all, I hope it becomes more readily available here soon!

D.


----------



## breakbeer

vovo said:


> I am in Brisbane.
> 
> I think this might have been the syrup. https://www.cocktailkingdom.com/mobile/default.aspx#P37671


Keen as to get some of this, currently using the Soda Stream mix which is not that crash hot

$30 + postage for a 750ml bottle makes me think twice though. How many litres would that make?


----------



## vovo

Bit of a long shot, but any chance someone has found a supplier of cinchona? Or affordable quinine syrup?


----------



## SimonMatthee

Hi All,

A public service announcement: I was very excited to receive my order from the States this morning of Cinchona Powder! I ordered it from a website called Herbal Advantage, and it arrived without a hitch, it was fully labelled as Cinchona Powder on the customs declaration, so nothing dodgy.

Order here: http://www.herbaladvantage.com/showsearchproduct.cfm?CategoryID=2&ProductSKU=11-5650P

Next step will be to make some Tonic!

Simon


----------



## greenplastic

Hi all

I am looking at getting some cinchona bark powder from the above source, however, the shipping rate they offer is the same if I buy 1/4lb or 1lb. Would anyone like to split a pound with me? Gets you just over 200g of powder which is enough to make 20 batches of tonic water according to the most popular recipes. Cost would be $26 including shipping to where ever you are in Australia.

Let me know!


----------



## Tracyb

Simon,

I would be interested in getting some cinchona bark and would be happy to split a shipment with you.

Tracy


----------



## scon

Colour me interested.


----------



## westpege

Hello

We were wanting to make Tonic Water and as per alot of the posts found the Cinchona Bark sourcing the major issue. While Newton's Pharmacy could supply we decided to keep looking largely due to overall cost once we included the shipping and handling charge.

We ended up finding The Hierophant in Canberra (www.hierophant.com.au) who are a natural medicine dispensary. They advertise Cinchona tea and essence on their website but when contacted said they had Cinchona in powdered form. We have ordered some and will report on how we go.


----------



## westpege

We received out 100gm cinchona bark powder from The Hierophant. It cost about $16 for 100gm inclusive of postage. 

We have brewed up our first batch of tonic syrup and are pleased with the result. Looking forward to some warm evenings to enjoy a G&T now.


----------



## benno1973

That's a great price! Can't seems to get through to their website however... 

Seems like it's down for everyone


----------



## westpege

The Hierophant does have a Facebook page with contact details We contacted them directly (email and phone) as they did not list the cinchona powder on their online store. 

I also noticed I got the URL wrong, as I forgot " the" so should be www.thehierophant.com.au though as stated the site is down.


----------



## benno1973

Thanks for that. I have a little from my last order, but I'll contact them via Facebook to see if they can send me some. Cheers! :chug:


----------



## Weizguy

FWIW, MHB sells a bottle of concentrate to make a keg full of Tonic water.

Link will not attach, as my icons are greyed out. http://www.ubrew.com.au/web/showproduct.asp?prodid=886

May or may not be useful to you.


----------



## benno1973

Thanks Les, I remember seeing this ages ago but have forgotten about it since. Anyone tried this? Given the price, it's a pretty good option. Can't quite make out the ingredients on the bottle - would like to know what goes in it.

BTW - options may be greyed out if you have the 'switch' selected on the top left when replying. Just unselect it and options should be available again.


----------



## Weizguy

Kaiser Soze said:


> Thanks Les, I remember seeing this ages ago but have forgotten about it since. Anyone tried this? Given the price, it's a pretty good option. Can't quite make out the ingredients on the bottle - would like to know what goes in it.
> 
> BTW - options may be greyed out if you have the 'switch' selected on the top left when replying. Just unselect it and options should be available again.


Thanks. Would not have worked that out by myself, I reckon.


----------



## vovo

Hi guys, I'm definitely interested in getting some cinchona still but I have recently found a place in Aus that sells the syrup. Onlybitters, a web store in Melbourne has a few of the premium tonic syrups. Tomr I'm sure is what I was served in San Francisco and it was fantastic. I am getting a mate to bring one up for me as postage seems a bit pricey for just one bottle. Would be good to try one against a home made syrup to compare. Thanks for the update guys.


----------



## of mice and gods

Ed,

People here are saying that 1kg might be too much for them. So I think nearly 15 tons is probably too much for a home brewing forum.

Although I'm sure plenty of people would put their hands up for free samples.. just in case 

Al


----------



## onlytonics

Thanks to VOVO for finding and mentioning our site. I am JD, the founder of onlybitters.com and onlytonics.com based here in Melbourne. We import and carry 12 varieties of artisan tonic syrups with two more on their way. For all your home tonic syrup makers, you should look into using some of these as a reference point for what is commercially made by small batch suppliers (nearly all from the US and one from Germany). The syrups range from the very bitter to the very sweet and everything on the spectrum and in between. One supplier (5by5) interestingly is not using cinchona bark but gentian root to bitter their tonic (to great debate in US circles if it is still a tonic syrup), but customers who have bought it, love it - so who am I to argue. 

On the topic of cinchona bark, I have started discussions with AQIS to see of I can import the bark itself. I will also be bringing in the major extract used in making both bitters and tonic syrups. So keep an eye out for that. I will update the forum once I have an update on this. In the meantime, enjoy your G&T's!


----------



## surly

Hey JD, I had a quick look on your site, but couldn't find any info on dilution ratios?
How far do these tonic syrups go?

Considering the possibility of hooking up a keg of soda water, or even adding the syrup to the keg (though there are added issues of longevity/sanitation).


----------



## Airgead

onlytonics said:


> Thanks to VOVO for finding and mentioning our site. I am JD, the founder of onlybitters.com and onlytonics.com based here in Melbourne. We import and carry 12 varieties of artisan tonic syrups with two more on their way.


So many tonics... so little time. I notice some of the bitters come as sample packs. Any chance of doing the same with the tonics? A set of 5 or 6 50ml bottles to see which ones we like best?

The missus has just discovered cocktails so she is busy drooling over the bitters. I'm looking at the shrubs. We are both eyeing off the ginger beer syrups...

Cheers
Dave


----------



## vovo

surly said:


> Hey JD, I had a quick look on your site, but couldn't find any info on dilution ratios?
> How far do these tonic syrups go?
> 
> Considering the possibility of hooking up a keg of soda water, or even adding the syrup to the keg (though there are added issues of longevity/sanitation).


The dilution ratios vary, I got a bottle of bradleys and 5by5. The bradleys is supposed to be 3/4 fl. oz. to 250ml of soda, however I found this a little weak. Probably a better ratio would be 30ml of tonic to 250ml of soda (I think this would be a good reference ratio for all of them). Having said all that, I am not a huge fan of the Bradleys and have not yet tried the 5by5.

I am pretty sure Tomr is what I have tried previously and really liked, maybe the 5by5 will impress me.


----------



## notung

I just ordered a bottle of Tomr's tonic syrup and Dr. Adam Elmegirab's Spanish Bitters from onlybitters.com. It's only ever been about angostura at our house so I'm looking forward to tasting a difference.


----------



## BeaQueen

Hi JD
thanks for the heads up on your website, I'm keen to try some of the tonic syrups you stock - do you have any info on what ones are more bitter?t
thanks
Megan


----------



## vovo

Anyone had any luck recently? I see Koda Phytorium has stock but about $18 for 60g it's a bit steep.


----------



## onlytonics

JD from www.onlybitters.com again. It has been a while since I was on this forum.
Well after reading all these blogs I have gone and purchased cinchona succirubra bark and powder for resale.
It just arrived to my warehouse and is getting packaged. In the next week it will be available for sale on www.onlybitters.com.

You can buy the powder in 250g, 500gm lots, and bark in 250gm, 500g and 1 kilo lots. If you want bigger quantities, write to me at [email protected]
Pricing is being worked on but I think everyone will be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## mycle

onlytonics said:


> JD from www.onlybitters.com again. It has been a while since I was on this forum.
> Well after reading all these blogs I have gone and purchased cinchona succirubra bark and powder for resale.
> It just arrived to my warehouse and is getting packaged. In the next week it will be available for sale on www.onlybitters.com.
> 
> You can buy the powder in 250g, 500gm lots, and bark in 250gm, 500g and 1 kilo lots. If you want bigger quantities, write to me at [email protected]
> Pricing is being worked on but I think everyone will be pleasantly surprised.


Just ordered 500g of the bark. Hoping to get a batch done for SWMBO for Christmas, maybe then she'll let me keep the keg fridge in the house...


----------



## alexcanb

Hi everyone!
I came across this website about a month ago looking for information on making tonic as Christmas presents. A belated thanks for all of the insider tips! Hope this old thread is still alive.

I've signed up to join this thread because I have a question I'm hoping you guys can help me with.
Using this recipe... https://pinchandswirl.com/homemade-tonic-water-for-the-ultimate-gin-and-tonic/... I got three beautiful jars. A few tweaks next time but overall, delicious! Three weeks later though my tonic has developed some not-good-looking cloudy white-ish masses suspended in the liquid and I'm wondering whether they need to be binned. 

Any thoughts? Cheers!
Alex


----------



## Rod

just for interest 

Dan Murphy sells a dry tonic water which I believe in quite nice with gin


----------



## vovo

alexcanb said:


> I got three beautiful jars. A few tweaks next time but overall, delicious! Three weeks later though my tonic has developed some not-good-looking cloudy white-ish masses suspended in the liquid and I'm wondering whether they need to be binned.
> 
> Any thoughts? Cheers!
> Alex


Did you use a suitable amount of citric acid and lemon juice? I know Morgenthaler recommends adding a neutral spirit to prolong shelf life but I see some of the commercial ones are alcohol free so I'm sure it's not a showstopper as long as you have enough acid (pH of 4.6 or below).

I also boil my concoction and store it in the fridge, not sure if that makes a difference though.

If you are unsure then bin them and start again it is cheap enough and way cheaper than food poisoning (and this coming from someone who is not that cautious when it comes to food safety)


----------



## bradsbrew

vovo said:


> If you are unsure then bin them and start again it is cheap enough and way cheaper than food poisoning (and this coming from someone who is not that cautious when it comes to food safety)


Maybe the tonic should of been, wait for it..... iced Vovo?


Sorry it's late.


----------

