# e-BIAB re-circ return options



## BlackRat (28/5/13)

Hi everyone, after completing my beer fridge and now having well over 20 brews under my belt I'm going to build a e-BIAB setup using a 70lt pot (I'm thinking CB at this stage but please feel free to suggest other options). 

Element wise I'm thinking maybe the NEW kegking element (as its simple to install) or two 2000W uxcell elements (although i can never seem to find them as cheap as everyone else).

I have decided that i want to utilize my "little brown pump" and install a re-circulation system for the mash, however I'm currently stuck for a wort return idea.
I have seen various methods via the numerous threads on this forum however i wanted to understand the pros and cons of each method so can you please help me by identifying the best method, or better understand the differences between them.

The wort return methods i have seen are:

*free-fall from the lid* - this method simply connects the return hose to the top of the lid where the wort then free-falls into the mash. This causes lots of splashing and i imagine would unsettle the grain bed. I imagine it would also oxidize the wort. Is this a good or bad method?
*hose return* - this method uses a hose wrapped around the inside of the vessel and allows wort to escape through its holes. This causes less splashing and than the method above and wouldnt unsettle the grain bed as much. This may increase channeling within the grain bed? Is this a good or bad method?
*probe return* - this method uses a probe pushed down inside of the grain bed and allows wort to escape through its holes. This causes zero splashing and wouldnt unsettle the grain bed at all. Is this a good or bad method?
Is there another method that i have simply overlooked?

As always your help will be very much appreciated and i will be sure to post some pics of my build.

Cheers,
BlackRat.


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## Phoney (28/5/13)

Unsettle the grain bed? What do you think is going to happen when you hoist the bag?

With a full volume mash you wont have a grain bed to speak of, most of the concerns you've mentioned usually only apply to traditional mash tuns. 

Your only concern should be getting a consistent temperature throughout your mash with no hot & cold spots.


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## QldKev (28/5/13)

I don't like lid mounted returns, it's shit in the way when taking off the lid.

Hose return is not a bad idea. You should have adequate flow that the top layer of wort is constantly mixing due to the return flow. So it's not going to cause it to track anywhere.

Vertical probe return into the grain bed. You would be returning half the wort to the lower section of the mash bad and draining it from the bottom. I prefer returning it all to the top and causing all of it to have to flow through the grain bed.

I just used a standard return arm for my 1V, exactly the same setup as per my 3V

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eCaan0kcrI&feature=player_embedded


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## breakbeer (29/5/13)

Option 1 seems to work well for me (doesn't splash too much either), I have a stainless QD fitted to my lid & I just disconnect it & hang the hose over the edge of the pot whenever I need to remove the lid.

I also use one of those things that you find on washing machine hoses, which keeps it bent without kinking. Also helps with hooking it over the pot when the lid is removed

I've got one of Ross' 70L pots & it's great, but there are two Keg King elements in it & BOTH are required for the boil. One is definitely enough to hold mash temps though


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## Dan Pratt (29/5/13)

here is an option for wort return, copper tubing. I used annealed copper pipe and bent it into shape and drilled the holes. this one here shows a little joinery and holes to disperse the return wort. make sure you google WORMS-BIAB and read up about what they done.


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## beerdrinkingbob (29/5/13)

QldKev said:


> I don't like lid mounted returns, it's shit in the way when taking off the lid.
> 
> Hose return is not a bad idea. You should have adequate flow that the top layer of wort is constantly mixing due to the return flow. So it's not going to cause it to track anywhere.
> 
> ...


what sort of fermenter efficiency do you get with that rig Kev, not sure whether to go a system that agitates the grains


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## Moad (29/5/13)

Mine was inspired by Kev but I just have a straight copper arm in from the side with some holes drilled to "rain" the wort back down. I adjust the pressure at the bottom return (which circulates across the element to stop scorching) which regulates the flow through the top return. Basically identical to what you are talking about. I probably would have put the return through the lid but mine is a keggle with a glass frypan lid that can't be drilled.


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## Tex083 (29/5/13)

Im trying to work out something similar for my 3V system, here is my short list.
http://www.brewhardware.com/accessories/114-mashtube  $25 USD
http://shop.beerbelly.com.au/equipment/mash-equipment/return-dish-set.html $90
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/mash-lauter-tun?page=3 $Not much its DIY
http://morebeer.com/products/ultimate-sparge-arm.html $150 USD

EDIT: http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=1_2_3&products_id=8260
Expensive for what it is but its off the shelf  $40 / $46 Sm/Lg

The one from More Beer is the best by far BUT its $156 AUD plus postage. The Electric Brewery one and the Brew Hardware are very similar, the advantage to using Loc Line over silicone hose is that Locline will say where you put it. The beer Belly one is a great price and with a ball valve it would give you the ability to sparge too.

I just added some parts to make a mash return like the EB one to Beerbelly to get an Idea of cost
Ball Valve $19.95.
Bulkhead 50mm $19.95
1/2" Elbo M-F $5.50
Hosetail Female $10.90
Hosetail Male $7.50
Silicone hose 1m $15.95
All 6 items = 79.95

So for an extra $10 you get the mash return dish, you may still need a ball valve but just dont tell the missus!


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## QldKev (29/5/13)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> what sort of fermenter efficiency do you get with that rig Kev, not sure whether to go a system that agitates the grains


Averaging between 85% to 87% pre-boil efficiency. To be fair I have never done a beer with an OG > 1.055 on it.


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## thebigwilk (29/5/13)

Heres some pics of my very simple and neat single vessel recirculating mashing system.


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## neo__04 (29/5/13)

Hey bigwilk. 

Designing myself a system at the moment too. Like the look of your setup.

A couple of questions.

From what I can see from your pics. You have the outlet of the bottom of the pot going to the bottom of the tee piece which is also close to the bottom of the pot, then hose up to the tee at the top and it goes back into the pot there. What's the reason for having the tee on the bottom, half in the bottom half in the top? 

Also I assume your temp probe connection is in the top of the top tee piece, for monitoring mash temp while recirc, when getting your initial water up to mash temp, how do u monitor that temp? Have the pump on or a different way?

Thanks heaps. Might have a few more questions as the night goes on 

Thinking I'll go a very similar setup to yours, just nutting out what's needed.


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## thebigwilk (29/5/13)

Neo__04 said:


> Hey bigwilk.
> 
> Designing myself a system at the moment too. Like the look of your setup.
> 
> ...


The inlet to the pot below the false bottom creates a whirlpool effect around the heat element so the wort has a less chance of scotching, as well as eliminating any dead spots in the foundation water (The water below the mash).The inlet above the mash also has a whirlpool effect and helps to spread an even heat wave on top of the grain bed, not just pouring the wort back in one spot.. When I am heating up the strike water I turn the system on for about 30 to 40 mins then start the pump , I know the system warms the water at about a degree a min so I start the pump ten 10 mins or so before mash in.


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## neo__04 (29/5/13)

Thanks for the reply. Makes sense. Once u start the pump 10 mins before the mash in, it then runs for the whole mash? 
Is the element set on manual using a pid or set at the mash temp? 

Also where did u buy your pot, what size?

Thanks heaps for the answers. It's a great help.


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## thebigwilk (29/5/13)

Neo__04 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Makes sense. Once u start the pump 10 mins before the mash in, it then runs for the whole mash?
> Is the element set on manual using a pid or set at the mash temp?
> 
> Also where did u buy your pot, what size?
> ...


Yes the pump runs for the entire mash ,and there is a pid in the controller box controlling the mash temp . I have also fitted a timer and two switches in the controller box that operate the pump and the pid . the pot is a 36 litre its good for your standard 23 litre batches. I found the pot on Ebay I think they are still there and that's where I got the marine stereo case that houses all the electrics .


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## neo__04 (29/5/13)

Thanks heaps for that. I'll write myself up a list of parts and get ordering.


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## BlackRat (30/5/13)

thebigwik - do you know what your system cost you? I did see your system the other night in a different thread and saved the pictures for "inspiration."

What is your false bottom made from? It looks like a great setup.

My only change on your system would by putting the flow valve on first outlet instead of above the first outlet. I thought you would always want as much wort as possible heading back up to the gain bed?


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## thebigwilk (30/5/13)

BlackRat said:


> thebigwik - do you know what your system cost you? I did see your system the other night in a different thread and saved the pictures for "inspiration."
> 
> What is your false bottom made from? It looks like a great setup.
> 
> My only change on your system would by putting the flow valve on first outlet instead of above the first outlet. I thought you would always want as much wort as possible heading back up to the gain bed?


The system cost about $650 give or take . The false bottom is made out of 3mm stainless steel and so are the hooks holding the false bottom up its 304 stainless. With the flow of the mash water its important not to over do it and have to much going back on top of the grain bed and compacting the mash , sometimes if the flow is to fast your efficiency will be lower not higher , well that's been my experience any way. I got the false bottom from a stainless steel fabricating mob called http://www.geordi.com.au/ most places like this have off cuts, and they can cut it to size , I got it for $30 a pretty good deal.


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## sluggerdog (5/9/15)

thebigwilk said:


> Heres some pics of my very simple and neat single vessel recirculating mashing system.


I'm in the process of copying this design, I just gave it a trial with some water. My issue is the water pumps directly out of the bottom return only, ignoring the top. Putting my hand in the pot and covering the bottom hole it will then come out the top nicely but not both at the same time.

Any ideas how I could get around this? Water to return via both returns at the same time.

Thanks


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## Kingy (5/9/15)

I'd put a couple of ball valves on there


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## TheWiggman (5/9/15)

Have you tried filling it (brew volume) with water and doing the same? The water will apply pressure to the bottom outlet and should allow flow out the top.


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## breakbeer (5/9/15)

sluggerdog said:


> I'm in the process of copying this design, I just gave it a trial with some water. My issue is the water pumps directly out of the bottom return only, ignoring the top. Putting my hand in the pot and covering the bottom hole it will then come out the top nicely but not both at the same time.
> 
> Any ideas how I could get around this? Water to return via both returns at the same time.
> 
> Thanks


Put a ball valve before the outlet of the bottom return. Which is what I've done. Fully open I still get flow to the top return, fully closed it will hose out like a mofo through the top


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## sluggerdog (6/9/15)

TheWiggman said:


> Have you tried filling it (brew volume) with water and doing the same? The water will apply pressure to the bottom outlet and should allow flow out the top.


No I haven't tried this, I only did the same with enough water to cover the outlet. Will try again, hopefully this is all it is.



breakbeer said:


> Put a ball valve before the outlet of the bottom return. Which is what I've done. Fully open I still get flow to the top return, fully closed it will hose out like a mofo through the top


I already have the ball valve right before the bottom return, didn't seem to make any difference how far it was open, always out the bottom.

Thanks


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## breakbeer (6/9/15)

I mean a ball valve that will completely stop flow to the bottom return if shut off. 

If the bottom return is closed then the wort has to go somewhere, so it will go through the top. As you slowly open the valve the flow through the bottom slowly increases & the top slowly decreases

From what I can tell in your pic, your ball valve (the little black one) is after the bottom return. It needs to be between the pot & your lower T piece


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## TheWiggman (6/9/15)

I guarantee that will make a difference sluggerdog. 
I don't think that's his actual unit breakbeer but if he does copy it he'll still want the valve where it is. If you're whirlpooling, shutting off that middle valve will put 100% through to bottom which is what you want. Without it, there will always be flow through the top - not ideal for whirlpool.


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## Mr B (6/9/15)

For the valve to control the flow to the top and bottom returns, you would need the return line going in to the top and not the bottom?

i.e. The hose goes from the kettle out and into the bottom T. Shutting the valve wont do anything.

But of the return goes from the kettle out to the top tee, it will then work....

Swap the temp probe and the line in

Soz disregard, the above two answers would work better.


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## sluggerdog (22/9/15)

TheWiggman said:


> Have you tried filling it (brew volume) with water and doing the same? The water will apply pressure to the bottom outlet and should allow flow out the top.


Finally got around to testing this, the higher volume was all that was needed, no additional ball valve required. Once I got around 20 litres into the urn both returns started to spill.

Cheers! :beerdrink:


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