# Zizzle's Brewbot



## Zizzle

The aim is an automated, unattended brew.

Random requirements:
- self contained: no PC hardware
- all electric
- tight arse budget - recycle old junk

Use case is:
- Night before: crack the grain & put it in the mash tun.
- Weigh hop additions and add to brew bot
- Punch in desired final volume and mash/boil times.
- Punch in start time

Wake up in the morning to a finished brew and run it into a cube for no chill.

First stage was the brew stand. I went to the local scrap metal yard and got some angle iron off cuts. Hack them up and gave them a hit with the mig:















Decided to go nice and short so there is low center of gravity & I can easily see inside the vessels.

Next step was to take over the kitchen table with gear. Garage is too greasy for this work:






Got and old computer case and folded it into a case for the brewbot brains:






Not pretty I know, but cheap and will be hidden and painted.

Not the automated valves: decided to got for gate valves since they require less torque to actuate than a ball valve and are cheaper too. Using windscreen wiper motors to drive them.

First hack up the tap handle:






Then weld up a little frame out of angle iron scraps to hold them:






The brains are coming along nicely:






Atmel Atmega128 micro controller, 5 relays, 3 more yet to add. 240x64 pixel lcd.


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## bonj

Looking good! Can't wait to see how you do the unattended hop additions.


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## Jye

Zizzle said:


> Not the automated valves: decided to got for gate valves since they require less torque to actuate than a ball valve and are cheaper too. Using windscreen wiper motors to drive them.



Coming along nicely  

Did you find a cheap source of wiper motors? Last time I looked they wanted about $25 each  And have you tried them with a ball valve since they have a lot of torque?


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## Zizzle

You've got me having second thoughts now Jye.

Maybe I'll try a pair of ball valves for the next pair of valves. Brewbot's going to have 4 valves: 2 on the input side of the pump from HTLT and mash tun, and two on the output side to the mash tun and boiler. And a solenoid for mains cold water in.

As for the wiper motors, I had those two laying around. They are spares for a classic car, so I do feel a little guilty. Should be able to pick up another pair pretty cheaply too. I haven't modified or damaged them, so can back out if it doesn't work.


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## browndog

How do you automaton guys account for stuck sparges ?

cheers

Browndog


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## mayzi

browndog said:


> How do you automaton guys account for stuck sparges ?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



'spose they would have to rig up some sort of alarm, that'd be nice to get dragged out of bed at 2 in the morning...... SWMBO would be over the moon I'm sure.


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## Darren

Boil over would be interesting!

cheers

Darren


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## Screwtop

Darren said:


> Boil over would be interesting!



Darren's batting for the negative side again, thats new!


Hey Zizzle, how about solenoid valves, have a look halfway down the page HERE

Screwy


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## Zizzle

If I could source them cheaply I would be all for solenoids. I've already got a cheap plastic one for cold mains water in, but I doubt it would stand up to hot water for very long. It also wasn't that cheap. The dual wiper motor + gate valve setup in the photos cost less.

As for a stuck sparge or a boil over, I've never had either so far. I'm hoping that won't change.

But yeah, I plan an alarm for any problems (stuck valves?).

SWMBO would rather me get out of bed for a few minutes while she is sleeping than spend a whole day brewing that is for sure.

I think for a quite a few brews, brewbot will have to be monitored pretty closely to sort out any bugs.


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## devo

"The aim is an automated, unattended brew."

I thought attending to it was half the fun of brewing?


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## Zizzle

The choice for some, since they don't have a spare 4-5 hours for each brew, is a quick & easy brew, or no brew at all.

I'm choosing quick & easy. I can still enjoy the recipe formulation and results.


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## brettprevans

Zizzle

That is ace. its the sort of thing that you need to built trial, fix any bugs then patent and sell the rights to. Im sure theres a hell of a lot of lazy HBs out there that have $$$ to spend on something like that. You could go on the ABC's 'New Inventor' program!

seriously nice work.


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## ArnieW

Zizzle said:


> If I could source them cheaply I would be all for solenoids. I've already got a cheap plastic one for cold mains water in, but I doubt it would stand up to hot water for very long. It also wasn't that cheap. The dual wiper motor + gate valve setup in the photos cost less.
> 
> As for a stuck sparge or a boil over, I've never had either so far. I'm hoping that won't change.
> 
> But yeah, I plan an alarm for any problems (stuck valves?).
> 
> SWMBO would rather me get out of bed for a few minutes while she is sleeping than spend a whole day brewing that is for sure.
> 
> I think for a quite a few brews, brewbot will have to be monitored pretty closely to sort out any bugs.


Hey Zizzle,

I've got a cheap plastic one for hot liquor in as well and have never had trouble with it. I've been running it for probably 5 years.

And for those pessimists - boil overs can be controlled with power management and sensors or by just getting a nice big kettle. And stuck sparges - yeah, who needs them. A stuck sparge is more related to system design than anything. [Waiting for flames to arrive h34r: ] Seriously though, I had a rotten brew the one before last - but it was due to poor fittings and air getting into the inlet side of the pump. I've just done my regular 40% wheat Hefe with a great recirc rate and no discernable compaction of the grain bed. My false bottom does have something like a 55% open area though.

I don't generally brew overnight, but the automation bits on HERMAN allow me to brew on a day off and go out and walk the dogs, do a bit of housework or yardwork, slow down and have a beverage etc. without things being difficult. But I still like to hang around and smell the grains and hops and marvel generally at the process of creating divine nectar.

cheers


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## ArnieW

Bonj said:


> Looking good! Can't wait to see how you do the unattended hop additions.


Hey Bonj,

check out this:

http://users.tpg.com.au/adsl2y58/userfiles...s/154_5489.html

We've had great success with that unit. Fun to watch it in action too!


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## Zizzle

Great link Arnie, I hadn't seen that photo set before. I got some good ideas out of it.

I have seen your hop adder before. Top idea, though I will probably got for a DC motor and some notches in the rotating disk that activate a microswitch. Stepper motors are a PITA.

So your level sensors work on the water conducting when it is in contact with the brass rods?

I got my valves acutating last night. Seems to work well enough.


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## mikem108

Thats an awesome piece of work Arnie!


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## gnewell

ArnieW said:


> Hey Bonj,
> 
> check out this:
> 
> http://users.tpg.com.au/adsl2y58/userfiles...s/154_5489.html
> 
> We've had great success with that unit. Fun to watch it in action too!



That's brilliant Arnie!! I'm slowly getting my stuff together to build something similar. I'll be going the Maxim / Dallas 1-Wire route for the PC Interface and doing all the control and intelligence via PC / Laptop. Already got my USB to 1-Wire interface: http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/3834

Question for you:
How do you go about cleaning all that equipment and pipes after your brews done. And emptying the mash tun for that matter.

Geoff.


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## oldbugman

Well the way I drink and dance around on a brew day I think I might look into a hop adder.

Might just use a couple of electro mechanical timers


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## Zizzle

Geoff - Brisbane said:


> Already got my USB to 1-Wire interface: http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/3834



You know with about $5 worth of components you can drive the 1-wire bus from any PC RS232 port?

http://www.linuxfocus.org/English/November...rticle315.shtml


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## bonj

That's some nice work Arnie. 

RS232 kind of rules out any modern laptop. Although any still functional 486 (running Linux of course) should be more than capable if you don't need a GUI interface.


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## winkle

Once this project is finished, are you going to build a fembot to serve the beer?


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## ArnieW

Zizzle said:


> Great link Arnie, I hadn't seen that photo set before. I got some good ideas out of it.
> 
> I have seen your hop adder before. Top idea, though I will probably got for a DC motor and some notches in the rotating disk that activate a microswitch. Stepper motors are a PITA.
> 
> So your level sensors work on the water conducting when it is in contact with the brass rods?
> 
> I got my valves acutating last night. Seems to work well enough.


I think the next hop dropper will be a long narrow carousel that is a bit like an old slide projector (the straight ones, not circular). I'm heading towards DC motors as well. Mostly I find both servos and steppers to be either underpowered for this kind of thing, or way to expensive for my obsession to build. :huh: 

The level sensors you see do indeed conduct through water and brass rods. When I get around to it, I will have a combo of those type of sensors and hopefully some capacitive ones - yet to be proven to work though.

Well done on the valves. I have too many things to distract me to have gotten mine to work yet.


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## ArnieW

Geoff - Brisbane said:


> That's brilliant Arnie!! I'm slowly getting my stuff together to build something similar. I'll be going the Maxim / Dallas 1-Wire route for the PC Interface and doing all the control and intelligence via PC / Laptop. Already got my USB to 1-Wire interface: http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/3834
> 
> Question for you:
> How do you go about cleaning all that equipment and pipes after your brews done. And emptying the mash tun for that matter.
> 
> Geoff.


The 1-wire stuff is very versatile Geoff, so a good way to go. Just a caution about PC intelligence - If you are running Windoze you could experience some nasty crashes from time to time  Yep, that's experience talking. A bit embarrassing to have a gold plated control system and then to lose it when that nasty OS sh!ts itself. Reminds me of the Southpark movie when Bill Gates gets assasinated by the US military when their presentation gets the blue screen of death  

Anyway, with my new system I'm designing it for the best of both worlds - intelligent microprocessor control, and even more intelligent PC control if the thing happens to be working.

Re the question: The mash tun emptying is a bit like the hinge and tip method, although there is no hinge. I used to scoop the grains out slowly, but tip and dump off the top level seems to work ok.

I clean mostly during the kettle chill into the fermenters. For all those no-chill people, the chill water (heated to a nice 40 or so degrees after the plate chiller) is great for cleaning - mash tun, plumbing, the lot. In my latest config, I've got a tap I can open to allow the chill water from the outlet of the plate chiller flow back into the other plumbing. I simply flush the water through one tap at a time.

I follow Ross's advice on cleaning the plate chiller. I fill the HLT with a bit of this chill water and add napisan. Once the kettle has drained, I use the pump to pump napisan solution back through the plate chiller into a now empty (except for trub and hops etc.) kettle. I finish by using my hot liquor in line to flush the whole line with clean water. I then dry it all.

And the chill water that escapes this cleaning plan gets stored in a grey water tank for the garden


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## ArnieW

Bonj said:


> That's some nice work Arnie.
> 
> RS232 kind of rules out any modern laptop. Although any still functional 486 (running Linux of course) should be more than capable if you don't need a GUI interface.


Thanks Bonj.

You can get USB to serial adaptors for not too much $. I've got one for mine from Rev Ed:
http://www.rev-ed.co.uk/picaxe/

Just look under products and serial / USB.

And Zizzle, thanks for that Linux link re 1-wire. I've bookmarked that for later.


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## gnewell

I know what you're saying. I'm a Linux Systems Engineer so there can only be one way to proceed! :lol: 

Thanks for the cleaning tips. When I build my new system it is going to be designed for automated cleaning as one of the key requirements. Just tip and dump the mash tun (on a pivot) and then I'll follow something like Zwickle's regime: Hot Caustic through all pipes and vessels, followed by Citric acid, followed by clean water. But how to do it all environmentally and save water? I'm moving to the UK in 8 weeks so shouldn't be a problem there. It rains most of the year!



ArnieW said:


> The 1-wire stuff is very versatile Geoff, so a good way to go. Just a caution about PC intelligence - If you are running Windoze you could experience some nasty crashes from time to time  Yep, that's experience talking. A bit embarrassing to have a gold plated control system and then to lose it when that nasty OS sh!ts itself. Reminds me of the Southpark movie when Bill Gates gets assasinated by the US military when their presentation gets the blue screen of death
> 
> Anyway, with my new system I'm designing it for the best of both worlds - intelligent microprocessor control, and even more intelligent PC control if the thing happens to be working.
> 
> Re the question: The mash tun emptying is a bit like the hinge and tip method, although there is no hinge. I used to scoop the grains out slowly, but tip and dump off the top level seems to work ok.
> 
> I clean mostly during the kettle chill into the fermenters. For all those no-chill people, the chill water (heated to a nice 40 or so degrees after the plate chiller) is great for cleaning - mash tun, plumbing, the lot. In my latest config, I've got a tap I can open to allow the chill water from the outlet of the plate chiller flow back into the other plumbing. I simply flush the water through one tap at a time.
> 
> I follow Ross's advice on cleaning the plate chiller. I fill the HLT with a bit of this chill water and add napisan. Once the kettle has drained, I use the pump to pump napisan solution back through the plate chiller into a now empty (except for trub and hops etc.) kettle. I finish by using my hot liquor in line to flush the whole line with clean water. I then dry it all.
> 
> And the chill water that escapes this cleaning plan gets stored in a grey water tank for the garden


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## bugwan

Zizzle, I will be watching this thread with great interest - love your automation work so far in the other thread.

I've got two working 1-wire LANs into PCs at home. Pretty proud of my work actually. I'm not going to win any Solderer of the Year awards (are they still giving those out?), but they work!

Unfortunately, my attempts at getting RRDTool running on windows properly have been in vain. Similarly, running several linux distros under VMWare in XP meant I couldn't access the COM1/TTYS0 port....grrrr. I've now got three LiveCDs (Gentoo, Debian, Mandriva) and I'll pick one (possibly at random) and install that.

The problem is, the machine all this is running on holds all my Promash/Beersmith recipes, which are in Windows, so I'm buggered again.... God, I'm having a bad day!

Bring on Friday.

And good luck Ziz, sorry for the rant/hijack!!


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## SJW

> The aim is an automated, unattended brew


I thought this was called going to the bottle shop and picking up a slab?


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## Zizzle

bugwan said:


> The problem is, the machine all this is running on holds all my Promash/Beersmith recipes, which are in Windows, so I'm buggered again.... God, I'm having a bad day!



I've been using linux exclusively since 1997 so I probably have a higher tolerance than most, but I've had most success with Ubuntu recently. Grab a LiveCD and give it a go. Try the digitemp package under linux for reading your DS1820 temps.

There is a windows emulator called wine that will allow you to run Promash/Beersmith under linux.

You also have the option of having both linux and windows installed and choosing which to use at boot time.

There is a new free package called VirtualBox that allows you to run windows under linux. But I haven't tried it yet.

Don't be afraid to start a "linux in brewing" thread, I know there are many geek-boys here. 

But yeah the 1-wire bus is pretty neat.


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## devo

I wouldn't be surprised that some of you guys also have one of those breakfast making contraptions like they have in the movies.


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## Ducatiboy stu

Just call me Wallace, and call my dog Gromitt.... :super:


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## dicko

W I B F :lol: :lol: 

I just tend to brew beer  

:beer:


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## Pumpy

http://www.chrisbeetles.com/pictures/artis...Heath/A0119.htm


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## Tony M

Zizzle said:


> If I could source them cheaply I would be all for solenoids. I've already got a cheap plastic one for cold mains water in, but I doubt it would stand up to hot water for very long. It also wasn't that cheap. The dual wiper motor + gate valve setup in the photos cost less.


Hey Zizzle,
I had to pull my washing machine apart this morning as it was having conniptions on the spin cycle. What caught my eye were a couple of neat little solenoid valves for the hot and cold inlets. So next time you drive past a dead washing machine on the verge, don't just rip the pump out but go for the solenoids as well.


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## ArnieW

Tony M said:


> Hey Zizzle,
> I had to pull my washing machine apart this morning as it was having conniptions on the spin cycle. What caught my eye were a couple of neat little solenoid valves for the hot and cold inlets. So next time you drive past a dead washing machine on the verge, don't just rip the pump out but go for the solenoids as well.


Those solenoids are great for hot and cold liquor in, but useless for other parts in a brewing system. There are two reasons - they rely on high pressure to operate (back pressure from the tap), and the opening is only a pin-hole - the perfect place for a speck of grain matter to find and clog it.

I use two like these, but just for the water that goes in.

cheers, Arnie


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## Zizzle

More progress over the weekend.

My source of windscreen wiper motors hadn't come through yet, so I got impatient and decided that the valves on the pump out put had to be driven by the one motor.

So I tried around all the local places to find for a 3-way ball valve. No joy. No one had any or knew anywhere that would.

I decided to have a go at building my own.

I also went to the wreckers to get another windscreen wiper motor. The cheapest they would do was $20 for and ex Skyline rear wiper motor. Cheaper because it was small. Size == price apparently, which doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Surely rareness sets the price. Never mind, I preferred the smaller one.

My plan was to use two ball vavles on a T-piece driven by some brooker rod turned by the wiper motor. The brooker rod would be at 45 degree between the ball valves to actuate them.

A few hours later (here's me winding it through it's range):















Just as I had it working and was about to mount the wiper motor, I got a call from a mate saying he has found me a 3-way ball valve at his work, and that I could have it. Murphy at work.

So I got to work mounting all my valves & the pump.











Silicon tubing yet to be put on.

The gap in the pipe on the pump inlet it to allow conductivity to be measured across it. Hopefully the CPU will be able to tell when the line has no fluid in it and shut down the pump.

I also crimped up some stainless dip tube for a set of thermo wells. Here you see it mounted in the HLT.






I also trial fitted the brain and console.






The console will be mounted on a post at about waist height on that corner.






Shocking job lining up that buttons...


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## browndog

Amazing stuff Zizzle, you are getting this thing together really quick. Gonna have to come up with a wicked name for your maiden brew.

cheers

Browndog


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## bonj

Looking awesome Zizzle. Nice work on the valves.


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## Jye

Good work on the 3-way valve, Ive been thinking along the same lines and only need one 4-way (1 in and 3 outs) for my setup since I can reverse my pump. Do you have any feed back on the valve to say when it is open or closed? The axle on my wiper motor comes through the other side I was thinking of using a rotary switch attached for the feedback.

... does anyone happen to have a 4-way valve :huh:


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## Zizzle

If I had a lathe I would have a shot at making a 4-way valve.

I was wondering how long before someone would ask how the CPU would know when to stop driving the motors on the vavles since it's pretty much impossible to use a micro switch to sense the limits of the gate valves.

With some tricky wiring on the relays I can drive 4 DC motors in forward and reverse using 4 relays. Before the relay pack I have a current sensing/limiting resistor. I can sample using the ADC on the microcontroller the voltage drop across the resistor. The current is proportional to the load on the motor. So as the current across the resistor starts to go up we can tell that the motor has began to be loaded, most likely because it it at the end of it's travel and hitting the stopper on the valve. In that case we cut the power.

You can get tricky in the software too (do the signal condition in sw, add failsafes etc.), but I think that I might just set the value of the resistor so that stalling the motor agaist the stoppers causes no damage.

But I suspect that scheme would not work on a 4-way ball vavle as you don't hit any stoppers on at least one of the ports.


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## Andyd

If you really wanted to know where you are for a 4-way ball valve, you'd put a cam on the shaft that flicked a momentary microswitch as the valve handle rotated past registration points.

Zizzle: Any chance you could pop up some schematics for your current sensing driver hardware? I was going to use exactly the same mechanism, but if you've got it working I'd appreciate not having to go through the design/debug stage 

Regards,
Andy


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## Zizzle

I hadn't drawn a circuit diagram yet... it's all been designed in my head so far.

So I've chucked togther a quickie for the relay and sensor setup. It's dead easy. Just a voltage divider on the ADC pin so that it doesn't go above the 5V VCC of the micro.


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## InCider

browndog said:


> Gonna have to come up with a wicked name for your maiden brew.



"A fair maidens maiden brew"

Great work Zizzle - SolderTFU!

InCider.


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## Pumpy

Jeese Zizzle ,

I thought this would be a long term project but you are really getting going , I like the way you use bits of cars and handy with a welder too.

Leeeeedge !!!!


pumpy


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## browndog

InCider said:


> "A fair maidens maiden brew"
> 
> Great work Zizzle - SolderTFU!
> 
> InCider.



I reckon it should be named the Frankenstein Brewery and the first brew "Bride of Frankenstein Ale"

cheers

Browndog


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## boingk

Very, VERY awesome setup...this thing is going to be awesome! I'm kit/extract, but if I go AG is pretty much how I'd love to do it. 

I'd opt for the "Bride of Frankenstein Ale/Lager", or maybe "Tron Ale/Lager" for that retro 'inside the computer' touch


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## ArnieW

Zizzle said:


> The console will be mounted on a post at about waist height on that corner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shocking job lining up that buttons...


Hey Zizzle, nice work. What are those 4 buttons going to do, and what brain have you got lined up?

cheers, Arnie


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## bugwan

I'm interested to see what this LCD is capable of displaying Zizzle. Temps? Countdown timer? Time? Should be a great watch! Keep the updates coming!


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## Zizzle

The LCD is 240x64 pixels, so I was going to dedicate the right hand 64x64 pixels to drawing graphs of temps, and vessel levels.

The micro is an AVR Atmega128. This is the board: http://www.futurlec.com/ATMEGA_Controller.shtml

Nice board to work with. gcc-avr & libc-avr under linux for the code. ponyprog2000 for downloading the code to it. Much nicer than the PIC stuff I have worked with, and pretty cheap too.

I have most of the I/O code written and a little test program that uses all the hardware. It also presents a serial console, so I can plug the laptop into it and see status and run commands. It also fetches the temp from one of the DS1820s and plots it on the LCD.

I need to decide on how I want to do the UI. I could go with a menuing system. So the four buttons could be up/down & left/right. Or number the buttons 1,2,3,4 and present the user with 4-way or less choice each time.


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## Dunkel_Boy

Very very cool. Haven't read the thread in detail, so apologies if this has been repeated.

I've used a couple of Dallas i-button/1-wire things with a work project, and they are brilliant.

In terms of overflow/boiler stuff (just throwing ideas around), can you hook a float or overflow to a two-stage system: first stage (After a couple of cm) turns the burner on, and second stage turns the input flow off. Well, you could make it a multi-stage thing (perhaps a probe/float/weight system down the middle of the boiler) for your sparges, hooked up to microswitches. Just an idea, if you haven't already thought of it...


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## ant

A quick question for Zizzle and others using the Dallas DS1820s... (and excuse my electronics ignorance here), but what are you housing them in for use in a HLT or HERMS, etc? In a probe (aka the s/s chopstick - nice one BTW) or a dedicated thermowell?

And to *really* show my ignorance - what are the advantages of a DS1820s over a PT100? My suspicions are that if you want to use the sensor to interface with a PLC/PC then the Dallas is a good (and cheap!) way to go, however if you were using dedicated PID's/process controllers, then you would need to use a PT100 (or thermistor, etc).

Beers,
Ant


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## Zwickel

ant said:


> A quick question for Zizzle and others using the Dallas DS1820s... (and excuse my electronics ignorance here), but what are you housing them in for use in a HLT or HERMS, etc? In a probe (aka the s/s chopstick - nice one BTW) or a dedicated thermowell?


I made another sensor this way, just drill a hole into an 8mm SS screw:











> ... what are the advantages of a DS1820s over a PT100? My suspicions are that if you want to use the sensor to interface with a PLC/PC then the Dallas is a good (and cheap!) way to go, however if you were using dedicated PID's/process controllers, then you would need to use a PT100 (or thermistor, etc).



The DS18x20 gives you directly a digital output, you may use in any software, independently how long the wire/kabel is.
The PT100 is just a resistor, for that you need a convertor to change the resitance value into an analog voltage value and then an AD-Changer to get a digital value. Also the resistance of the wire/kabel falsifies the output.
Thats most complicated.
If youre going to use a ready made Unit, like a PID, then all the mentioned parts are already inbuild, but the most of them can manage only one certain temperature.

If youre going to control the whole brewing process, then youll need a software that can manage many different temperatures in many steps.
For that the DS18x20 is first choice.
just my 2cnt.

Cheers


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## Screwtop

browndog said:


> Amazing stuff Zizzle, you are getting this thing together really quick. Gonna have to come up with a wicked name for your maiden brew.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog




Brainiac Bitter  

Anyone remember the pre solid state valve monster of that name?


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## ArnieW

ant said:


> A quick question for Zizzle and others using the Dallas DS1820s... (and excuse my electronics ignorance here), but what are you housing them in for use in a HLT or HERMS, etc? In a probe (aka the s/s chopstick - nice one BTW) or a dedicated thermowell?
> 
> And to *really* show my ignorance - what are the advantages of a DS1820s over a PT100? My suspicions are that if you want to use the sensor to interface with a PLC/PC then the Dallas is a good (and cheap!) way to go, however if you were using dedicated PID's/process controllers, then you would need to use a PT100 (or thermistor, etc).
> 
> Beers,
> Ant


Hi Ant,

I like what zwickel has built and I guess there are many ways to do it. Below is a photo of how I've inserted a DS18B20 into a copper pipe. This pipe is on the outlet side of my heat chamber, after the pump. I used epoxy to seal the pipe and hold the probe in position. The probe head is directly exposed to wort. It seems to work ok, but I guess it may need some long term testing to be sure.


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## Zizzle

For the thermowell I got a keg dip tube off Ross and cut it into thirds, crimped the end and used Selley's Knead-It to glue it into a brass fitting.






I didn't think of doing it Zwickel's until after I had the dip tube.

For the boiler, I don't really need to known an accurate temp, just approximately when it has reached the boil, so I might just glue a DS1820 to the outside of the kettle.


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## ant

Once again, the collective nous of the AHB'ers comes through with solid advice; onya gents - the more I look at this, the more it confuses me...  I know what I'd like to achieve, but my lack of elec/programming experience coupled with my awe of all things metal (holy crap... Zwickel drilled through a screw?) automatically leads me to look at "plug and play" options (ie industrial PT100 to a cheap ebay PID).

But functionality needs to win the day, so I guess I'll just get some 4-6" thermowells to go into the 1/2" fittings I've got welded in to the HLT, HERMS, MLT and buy some Dallas DS units, with the intent of asking a million questions about where to from there... am thinking of a PLC (cos I think I stand a fair chance with ladder logic) to control all the temps through some elec actuated ball valves (picked up a beautiful 3-way one on ebay the other week). At this point, I just want to get the heating in the HLT and mash automated so I can cut the brew day down a bit (note I use the word "just", although this seems like an insurmountable task at this point)...

Sooo, next question #1 - which DS1820? There are a bunch of them :blink: 

Apologies for thread hijack Zizzle - will start another to avoid this in future


----------



## Zizzle

How software friendly are you ant? Ever programmed in any computer language?

Something like Python is probably no harder than ladder logic to learn (although I've never used the later).

It all depends on how much time you have and how much you enjoy doing this stuff yourself.

I've posted a link earlier on a simple cicruit to build to talk to a DS1820 from the serial port of a PC. Next you can buy relay card for a PC parallel port, this will allow you to switch mains voltages (probably not cheap if it has to handle 20amps or more in the US).

You can pick up and old laptop PC pretty cheaply these days. It doesn't need to be very powerful, and old Pentium should be fine. People literally throw them away. Get it running a copy linux. Mainly because it is much more stable than Windows, can be stripped down to run on old hardware, and comes with all the software tools you need.

http://www.linuxnetmag.com/en/issue8/m8temperature1.html

As for which DS1820, I think I've got the DS18S20, but just log into the Dallas semi website and see which ones they are willing to give you as free samples.


----------



## winkle

Screwtop said:


> Brainiac Bitter
> 
> Anyone remember the pre solid state valve monster of that name?



Poindexter Porter? Impressive project happening quickly away :super:


----------



## browndog

Screwtop said:


> Brainiac Bitter
> 
> Anyone remember the pre solid state valve monster of that name?



ENIAC English Bitter


----------



## sqyre

Lookin Good Zizzle.. :super: 

How about Vegan Vienna??  

or

HTFU Hefeweizen???



Sqyre...


----------



## browndog

sqyre said:


> Lookin Good Zizzle.. :super:
> 
> How about Vegan Vienna??
> 
> or
> 
> HTFU Hefeweizen???
> 
> 
> 
> Sqyre...




Rastafarian Rauchbier.....

appologies to the eggheads trying to have a serious thread here  

cheers

Browndog


----------



## Zizzle

Haven't had much time to spend on the brewbot recently, but have been anyway 

It's nearly done, except for the hop dropper.

Brew bot can automatically fill it's HLT from the mains water, heat that to mash temp, pump 15lts from the HLT to the mash tun, mash for 60mins, heat water for mash out, pump 7ltrs of that to the mash tun, refill HLT and heat 23ltrs of sparge water.

The code for all steps is written, the above is all I've had time to test so far. The has been a few bugs and glitches, but overall I'm happy with how it is working.

Pics tomorrow when I figure out why my camera has stop talking to my laptop.


----------



## ArnieW

Zizzle said:


> Haven't had much time to spend on the brewbot recently, but have been anyway
> 
> It's nearly done, except for the hop dropper.
> 
> Brew bot can automatically fill it's HLT from the mains water, heat that to mash temp, pump 15lts from the HLT to the mash tun, mash for 60mins, heat water for mash out, pump 7ltrs of that to the mash tun, refill HLT and heat 23ltrs of sparge water.
> 
> The code for all steps is written, the above is all I've had time to test so far. The has been a few bugs and glitches, but overall I'm happy with how it is working.
> 
> Pics tomorrow when I figure out why my camera has stop talking to my laptop.


Cool ... I'm impressed Z. Have you tried out that circuit yet?

Keep up the good work. 

PS. I'm close to getting some pic based control gear working - just debugging at the moment.


----------



## Zizzle

I actually just went with connecting the ADC ports on the AVR directly to the sensor rods in the vessel. Plus a pull up resistor of about 600k.

I also played around with ultrasonic transducers for a while. To the point where I could see the echos on the CRO, but it was all breadboarded so soldering it up and writing the code to measure the echo time would have taken me more time that just mounting some conducting rods. So I just hacked up a bit of timber and mounted some aluminium strips that can be adjusted to set the water level, much like your setup.

Three in the HLT, and I'm thinking I'll add one to the boiler just so I don't even end up turning on the heating elements when they aren't covered.

One misshap was me forgetting to add the protection diodes for the solenoid and it's relay. So I managed to end up with a pin on the microcontroller that no longer works. Still plenty of unused pins, but I'm lucky I didn't kill the whole thing.

Arnie, are you writing PIC assembly?


----------



## Zizzle

It's alive! I need to strip it and paint the frame, tidy the wiring etc when I'm happy it will all work.






HLT filling:





HLT heating:





Actuated valves:





Brainz:


----------



## ant

Holy smokes that is some serious wiring - but then again, this is a serious step up in homebrewing technology.

Zizzle, it is half science, half work of art - I love it. :super:


----------



## bonj

Awesome work Zizzle!


----------



## ArnieW

Zizzle said:


> I actually just went with connecting the ADC ports on the AVR directly to the sensor rods in the vessel. Plus a pull up resistor of about 600k.
> 
> I also played around with ultrasonic transducers for a while. To the point where I could see the echos on the CRO, but it was all breadboarded so soldering it up and writing the code to measure the echo time would have taken me more time that just mounting some conducting rods. So I just hacked up a bit of timber and mounted some aluminium strips that can be adjusted to set the water level, much like your setup.
> 
> Three in the HLT, and I'm thinking I'll add one to the boiler just so I don't even end up turning on the heating elements when they aren't covered.
> 
> One misshap was me forgetting to add the protection diodes for the solenoid and it's relay. So I managed to end up with a pin on the microcontroller that no longer works. Still plenty of unused pins, but I'm lucky I didn't kill the whole thing.
> 
> Arnie, are you writing PIC assembly?


Hi Zizzle,

no I'm using the picaxe  micros which have a basic interpreter overlaid on the pic. It makes it very easy to program. You mentioned ultrasonics and how much code to work out the echos - the picaxe has a single command line to give a value in mm back. The downside is that processing speed is slow, and often you need to work out clever workarounds to get it to perform some complex functions.

But they are really cheap, software is free, manual includes lots of interfacing info etc.


----------



## Ross

Zizzle,

Hope i get an invite to your 1st brewday - Switch on, sit around drinking, telling yarns.... & switch off when it's all over... It'll be a tough day, but i don't mind lending a hand with the button press if needed  

Looks awesome mate :super: 

Cheers Ross


----------



## Zizzle

Yep Ross, exactly what I have been thinking :beer: 

Brew day at my place, coming soon. :beerbang: 

Not having to worry about hop additions affords you room to have an extra couple of beers.


----------



## devo

ya know your screwed when that thing becomes self aware and starts killing humans.


----------



## Andyd

If it does become self aware and it's got half an ounce of intelligence it'll stay put and scoff all the beer it's brewing


----------



## Zizzle

Yep, you're on the money... it will evolve into bender.


----------



## bonj

Bite.... My.... Shiny.... Metal.... HLT!

Edit: "I felt it ferment!"


----------



## Zizzle

Maiden brew was yesterday, a simple APA.

It didn't go off without a hitch... but that was expected.

This was a trial brew to dial in some of the settings and see where the kinks are.

Mash was bit low, 62 which is easily corrected for next time (and fixed with a couple of litres of boiling water yesterday).

Everything up to the sparge worked well and could be left unattended.

The pump doesn't seem to prime reliably when fed from the mash tun even when testing with only water, but does when fed from the HLT. So more investigation needed there.

Also my threshold for detecting when the pump has begun to run dry was setup using test runs of water. But wort seems to conduct electricity much better, so more more tweaking needed there.

But the sparge didn't get stuck and pumped out nicely once the pump was primed.

The automated boil went off with out a hitch. No hop dropper yet, so I just had the controller give me a beep when each hop addition was due.

Efficiency was about 78% into the cube (no chill).

Next up: build up the hop dropper, get the pump priming sorted, insulate the HLT and adjust the level sensors so the lid will go back on.


----------



## Steve

This thread has amazed me. Ive got no idea half of what you are talking about, the pics are good though :blink: Zizzle, next you'll be able to go over seas for a month and remotely do a brew a week whilst you're away...from cracking the grain to syphoning it into a keg. Farking amazing.
Cheers :beerbang: 
Steve


----------



## randyrob

Zizzle said:


> Maiden brew was yesterday, a simple APA.



nice work zizzle, been following this one with great anticipation.

hmm.. AAPA (automated american pale ale) eh, hope she's nice and tasty :beer: 

Rob.


----------



## ArnieW

Well done Zizzle. The beer will taste like nectar from the gods when it's done :beer: 

I think your machine is officially more hands-free than mine at the moment. Mind you I brewed again today and it continues to purr along with little mods between brews.

Cheers, Arnie


----------



## Zizzle

Work on the hop dropper has started. Got some cheap plastics from one of the Chinese crap stores. Doing my bit to screw the environment and grow the chinese economy.  

MDF would be easier to work with, but would probably swell from the steam of the boil.

I was going to use a microwave turntable motor, but discovered it randomly choses a directing to turn when power is applied. Gotta love AC motors.

So I got this from jaycar:




.

It can be setup to got down to the low rpms that I want, but the quality isn't impressive. After putting it togther I discovered that one of the shafts is bent, meaning the gears are only just meshing sometimes. I think I have some tool grade 3mm rod somewhere at home, so should be able to get it reliable.


----------



## sqyre

Zizzle said:


> MDF would be easier to work with, but would probably swell from the steam of the boil.



Yes it does... :blink: even with 5 coats of clear... just takes one scratch..

learn't my lesson on that one...

sqyre...


----------



## Doogiechap

Hey Zizzle,
If you get sick of reviving the Jaycar Assembly then this one from Oatley might be a better option 
Only $18
Cheers
Doug


----------



## kirem

You have done some great work.

I love the windscreen wiper motor actuated valves.


----------



## Zizzle

Hop dropper is working, although it remains to be seen how reliable it will be. The little jaycar motor and gearbox will probably prove to be a bit too flimsy.

Microswitch to detect when a cup has just passed the hole and dropped it's hops.


----------



## kirem

nice idea.

I was going to go down the seperate containers for hop drops - 4-5 of them similar to your cups but without rotating them past a chute, instead have them feed into chutes that finish in a single chute. Each chute has a solenoid gate valve or similar on it, that is either required to be open or shut.

I figure its a lot easier than controlling how far a motor/servo has to turn to align the cup and chute.

Is there any reason you went for the rotating platform approach?


----------



## Andyd

Interesting, 

Have you found much of a problem with the delivery tube steaming up too much and leaving a lot of hop resudue in the shute rather than the beer? (I was noticing yesterday that the packet of Amarillo I used had about 15% powder, which woudn't make it far down the shute as shown...

Andy


----------



## Zizzle

First to answer the questions:

I went with the rotating platform approach because it was cheap to do. Only one motor and some cheap plastics. Solenoids are about $10 from jaycar.

I got the idea from Arnie's setup.

Controlling how far the platform has to rotate to do the drop was actually the quickest and easiest part. Just a micro switch with a bit of wire soldered to it to sense when a cup has just passed the hole.

And yes, powered hops are no good for this setup.


I tasted a sample from the fermeter of the maiden brewbot brew. Initially nice, but a real plasticy aftertaste. I had run a few hot water only runs through the system before hand, but didn't think to taste them. First stop in tracking it down was the 5 meters of new hose from the mains water tap to the HLT. Yep sure enough, drinking from the end of it didn't taste great. It is clear, but reinforced hose rated for high temps from Bunnings. They were out of plain clear PVC hose when I was there.


I have made some recent changes to the plumbing to make the mash tun prime the pump better, and to try to detect when the pump begins to run dry.

The plan was to run the output of the pump up high in a loop of silicon hose, and measure the conductivity across the hose. When the pump starts to run dry gravity would cause the remaining fluid to drain making the loop empty and conductivity drop.

So last night Brad came over and we did side by side brews. 

I filled the brewbot HLT by bucket this time. We ran some water though the brewbot and let it heat up. It tasted like hot water, not plastic, so on with the brew. Nothing in the brewbot itself was causing the previous plastic taste, it was just that new hose.

The problem was that running the hot water through had pre-heated the system, so my strike temp was higher than expected.

Also, changing the plumbing to make the mash tun better prime the pump has upset the HLT priming the pump. Bugger. But recirc and sparge went of without a hitch.

Well execpt for the controller not detecting when the mush tun was empty and pump should be turned off. Seems the loop didn't drain as well as I expected it to. The pump seems to hold a column of fluid there that doesn't move. Back to the drawing board. Maybe just bite the bullet and get or make a propper flow sensor. Maybe like this: http://www.overclockers.com/tips1114/ Unless anyone has any good ideas?

Okay so the exciting new bit was the first automated hop addition. Worked as expected.
We then went inside for dinner. Didn't hear the second one go off. Checked a little later. The platform had rotated as expected, but the hops were still wedged in the cup. Doh! It seems there was enough steam getting to them that they swelled up and stuck in the cup. So that hop addition was late by a few minutes.

I've got some other ideas for different designs for the hop dropper.

So more R&D time needed. Much to the distaste of SWMBO.


----------



## ArnieW

Zizzle said:


> First to answer the questions:
> 
> I went with the rotating platform approach because it was cheap to do. Only one motor and some cheap plastics. Solenoids are about $10 from jaycar.
> 
> I got the idea from Arnie's setup.
> 
> Controlling how far the platform has to rotate to do the drop was actually the quickest and easiest part. Just a micro switch with a bit of wire soldered to it to sense when a cup has just passed the hole.
> 
> And yes, powered hops are no good for this setup.
> I tasted a sample from the fermeter of the maiden brewbot brew. Initially nice, but a real plasticy aftertaste. I had run a few hot water only runs through the system before hand, but didn't think to taste them. First stop in tracking it down was the 5 meters of new hose from the mains water tap to the HLT. Yep sure enough, drinking from the end of it didn't taste great. It is clear, but reinforced hose rated for high temps from Bunnings. They were out of plain clear PVC hose when I was there.
> I have made some recent changes to the plumbing to make the mash tun prime the pump better, and to try to detect when the pump begins to run dry.
> 
> The plan was to run the output of the pump up high in a loop of silicon hose, and measure the conductivity across the hose. When the pump starts to run dry gravity would cause the remaining fluid to drain making the loop empty and conductivity drop.
> 
> So last night Brad came over and we did side by side brews.
> 
> I filled the brewbot HLT by bucket this time. We ran some water though the brewbot and let it heat up. It tasted like hot water, not plastic, so on with the brew. Nothing in the brewbot itself was causing the previous plastic taste, it was just that new hose.
> 
> The problem was that running the hot water through had pre-heated the system, so my strike temp was higher than expected.
> 
> Also, changing the plumbing to make the mash tun better prime the pump has upset the HLT priming the pump. Bugger. But recirc and sparge went of without a hitch.
> 
> Well execpt for the controller not detecting when the mush tun was empty and pump should be turned off. Seems the loop didn't drain as well as I expected it to. The pump seems to hold a column of fluid there that doesn't move. Back to the drawing board. Maybe just bite the bullet and get or make a propper flow sensor. Maybe like this: http://www.overclockers.com/tips1114/ Unless anyone has any good ideas?
> 
> Okay so the exciting new bit was the first automated hop addition. Worked as expected.
> We then went inside for dinner. Didn't hear the second one go off. Checked a little later. The platform had rotated as expected, but the hops were still wedged in the cup. Doh! It seems there was enough steam getting to them that they swelled up and stuck in the cup. So that hop addition was late by a few minutes.
> 
> I've got some other ideas for different designs for the hop dropper.
> 
> So more R&D time needed. Much to the distaste of SWMBO.


Great work Zizzle.

I've been able to use pellet hops ok with my dropper. I think the key was to minimise steam getting up the chute. If you check out the photo at: Arnie's dropper
you can see how the chute ends up at an angle over the kettle. The bottom of the opening is closer to the kettle centre than the top of the opening - which means that the steam has to bend around a corner to get up into the chute. You will also see a bathroom extraction fan sitting behind the kettle. These two things keep the steam from clogging up the works. The other thing I'd suggest is make the hop carriers straight sided.

I know what you mean about R&D. I've done lots of background working out since about 2000. The parts that are working on my machine are now reliable - but it is a long and slow process getting towards a more fully automated machine.

BUT as was once famously said:

One small step for man ... one giant step for mankind 

cheers :beer:


----------



## bugwan

Congratulation Zizzle. That dream is now a tangible reality! Great to see it all come together bit by bit. Nice idea on the hop dropper - I had something else entirely in my mind, which wouldn't have worked so well...now that I think about it!

Looking forward to further discoveries and pics (like everyone else).

Shame about the taste of the maiden brew. I hope you've got some stocks to see you through the testing process?


----------



## fraser_john

WOW. I have not seen this thread before and just read the whole thing, just plain old great work and talent! 

Now, pack the whole thing up, take it to China and get them made up there and resell the whole thing via your own website. That would take the edge off the US$2300 systems that MoreBeer.com sells!


----------



## ArnieW

Hey Zizzle,

I've been doing a bit of looking around and found this flow switch. Looks reasonable although not sure about the 15mm copper pipe bit - but I can find a way around that if needed.
Farnell flow switch

I've ordered one, so when it arrives I'll let you know.

cheers, Arnie


----------



## Andyd

Zizzle,

How do you manage clearing trapped air in transfer lines? I've got a problem with my set-up where because of my spigot configuration I wind up with air trapped in the top of the lines that prevents a good flow from being established.




I have a breather on the other side of the pump, but that doesn't allow the air in the top of the tube to escape.

Thanks ,

Andy


----------



## Zizzle

Good find Arnie, I was looking at a couple from rs. They don't seem do like me linking to them, but I will try anyway.

One plastic one 15mm, for about $37, the other brass for about $80.

http://www.rsaustralia.com/cgi-bin/bv/rsww...heID=aunetscape
http://www.rsaustralia.com/cgi-bin/bv/rsww...heID=aunetscape

Search for 0257076 & 0256562 if the links don't work. They also have 22mm versions of both.

Andy, yep I have the same problem, although last time I ran brewbot it primed fine. My planned solution is to modify my plumbing so the the pickup in the very bottom of the vessel, not coming in from the side like in your drawing.


----------



## Andyd

I've done this now for my mash tun, but I'll still have trouble with the kettle, which is gas fired from the bottom... do you have a plan to overcome flaming the spigot directly?

Andy


----------



## Zizzle

Electric boiler, and I don't pump from my kettle, just run into a cube for no-chill.


----------



## Andyd

Zizzle said:


> Electric boiler, and I don't pump from my kettle, just run into a cube for no-chill.




Ah - fair enough then. I'll have to look into alternatives. I've been thinking about having a bleed valve in the boiler outlet. Yet another valve to actuate though... *sigh*


----------



## ArnieW

Zizzle said:


> Good find Arnie, I was looking at a couple from rs. They don't seem do like me linking to them, but I will try anyway.
> 
> One plastic one 15mm, for about $37, the other brass for about $80.
> 
> http://www.rsaustralia.com/cgi-bin/bv/rsww...heID=aunetscape
> http://www.rsaustralia.com/cgi-bin/bv/rsww...heID=aunetscape
> 
> Search for 0257076 & 0256562 if the links don't work. They also have 22mm versions of both.
> 
> Andy, yep I have the same problem, although last time I ran brewbot it primed fine. My planned solution is to modify my plumbing so the the pickup in the very bottom of the vessel, not coming in from the side like in your drawing.


Yep, the links didn't work. But searching on the part number was ok.

cheers, Arnie


----------



## Brad_G

Brewers, 

Ive seen this thing working. Its a real sight to see. Yes, there are a few slight bugs to iron out, but jeeeeeez, its amazing to watch: Sparge/recirc happens right before your eyes. No jugs or worrying about splash etc. Not only that, but the consistancy potential is unbelievable. Imagine knowing that your next brew is gonna be exactly like the last! I was really impressed to see the whole thing in action. I should pull my finger out and get something happening myself. 

brad


----------



## homekegger1

Zizzle,

Mate what an amazing set-up. I wish you all the best on getting it right. Obviously you work in electronics or the like. I just showed SWMBO and she lowered her head and said enough is enough. I guess I need to buy her chocolates or something. Perhaps wait a few month's and just slowly aquire bits and pieces. 

Love the work mate.

Cheers

HK


----------



## ant

I know you guys are looking at flow switches as a solution, but Omega offer these nylon body, rated to 100C flow meters for US$86? They have a nickel plated brass option for $170 too, but that's starting to get pretty pricy, and the temp range is not as good (only to 88C). I'm not even going near the s/s versions h34r: 

I've been thinking of a flow meter preferentially over a flow switch because it should allow me to interface direct with a PLC (I asusme it could interface just as easily with a PC based setup), will allow me to set an alarm based on low flow rates, and when in combination with a solenoid, can manage multi-step flows (ie X L for mash-in, X L for sparge) without the hassle of having a constant level switch in the HLT (ie allows me to vary volume by recipe). Will use in combination with a low level float switch in HLT to avoid exposing element. Does this all sound like reasonable logic?


----------



## Zizzle

Something else useful I just stumbled upon: http://www.acroname.com/robotics/parts/R48-IR12.html


----------



## tangent

great thread guys :beer: 

regarding the hopping, does anyone remember the device called the Sir Hopsalot?

there's a reference here but i can't find a photo anymore.

Some places use them in APAs and IPAs to add a continuous feed of pellets into the kettle. I can't remember how it worked though. Might be able to rig up something similar on a timer or something.


----------



## ArnieW

Zizzle said:


> Something else useful I just stumbled upon: http://www.acroname.com/robotics/parts/R48-IR12.html


Hi Zizzle,

I spent a lot of time with one of these - they do not reflect well off wort or liquid; and I even tried a float system and got terrible reflections that made it very difficult to use. Ultrasonic is much more reliable in my experience.

cheers, Arnie


----------



## Zizzle

Good to know. What doesn't work is very valuable info.

Have you tried your flow switch yet? I got one too the other day, but only got home from a weeks holiday last night. Itching to test it out tonight, but SWMBO said it was time for a food shop. And I've got a beer to bottle for the case swap. Bah.


----------



## WildaYeast

Freakin far out Zizzle. Read a bit a while back and just caught up. Will have to come by to see it. Just did my first AG over the weekend (finally, long time since Brads). First was a stout, but I've got grain for a skunk fart as well -- same as we did that day. Will get it going soon hopefully and arrange to come by wiht some when ready, if not sooner.

Brian


----------



## Zizzle

My flow switch has been plumbed in for a week now, software tweaked ready for a test.







Not a great photo, but the flow switch is the short piece of copper with a black blob on the side.






So I finally ran it up for a test. Seemed to work well enough. Ideally the flow switch would only activate at higher flow rates. I think it's calibrated for 0.5 litre/min which is just a trickle. It doesn't seem to restrict the flow much at all.

But with some more software tweaks I managed to get brewbot through a dummy test brew without a hitch. For the first time.

I have a simple and obvious algorithm implemented: run the pump for a few seconds, and if there is no flow, shut the pump down before trying again in a few seconds.

Usually after valve setup gravity will put some fluid in the pump, but some air pockets will prevent the pump from working. So running the pump for a few seconds then stopping is usually enough to dislodge any air pockets in the system, and the second try will see the pump primed and flow start.

There is also some logic around bailing out if it tries to start the flow too many times, and also not bothering to try to restart the flow after a decent period of transfer time.

Of course it's yet to be see if it all goes without a hitch when grain and wort is involved.


----------



## Zizzle

Some slight reconfigurations today.

The main issue is to make it easier to drain water out of the system after cleaning.

So I've moved the valves. There is a slight slope to the left so I can easily pull the silicon hose to the HLT and have the fluid drain out:
















Hopefully soon I will get the point where I'm convinced I won't need to do anymore welding and can paint the thing and make it look pretty.

Yet to do: Make the hop dropper a little more robust. Mount some fans to push steam away from the hop dropper.
Then on to integrating a HERMS setup.


----------



## InCider

Great rig Zizzle :super: 

Bring it to Sqyre's at Xmas and we can have an AHB Summernats!  

InCider.


----------



## Zizzle

Sure, what sort of rig will you be sporting at the summernats?

A fully sic Turbo-rotary-V8-diesel-on-gas-with-four-on-the-floor-three-on-the-tree-and-a-sixpack-in-the-back?


----------



## bonj

My 3 DS18S20+ samples arrived today... They took their time, but at least they arrived!


----------



## Andyd

Mine came today, and last week 

I resubmitted my order a few weeks back when I figured my first order had gone through the gaps 

Andy


----------



## bonj

Andyd said:


> Mine came today, and last week
> 
> I resubmitted my order a few weeks back when I figured my first order had gone through the gaps
> 
> Andy



I thought mine had gone through the gaps... but they turned up. Will be fun playing around with these.


----------



## Zizzle

Long time no post, but there has been quite some progress.

To solve the hop dropper problems with steam I wanted to enclose it in a case a have a small fan pressurise it. So I got a cheap plastic box and built a new dropper setup out of some scrap MDF and one of my wiper motors.


















A while back it pissed down and poor old brewbot was wet for week out on the deck. It started to rust.
So I was force to paint him. 


















While stripped down, the brain got an upgrade to a set of 4 triacs with opto-isolators I had laying around. To fit them in with PCB & heatsink, I had to move the CPU board & transformer.





I have not moved the heating element control over to triacs yet. But the pump is on a triac, and I have another set aside for running a HERMS element. For those not in the know, a triac the main component of a Sold State Relay. It will allow my to drive the 240v get at a variable duty cycle, like a dimmer.

I also spent a lot of time tracking down some issues with driving the wiper motors.

The problem was that the CPU would sometimes reset when changing the valves. Or sometimes it would latch up hard, with only a power reset bringing things back. So I wrote a little test harness to cycle the valves. It would only survive a few iterations, so it was quick to test attempted fixes.

I was pretty sure it was a hardware problem. First stop was some more filter caps on the power supply. No change. Then a zener diode and filter cap on the motor-stall current sense circuit. No change. Then I tried disconnecting the current sense circuit. No change. Then I tried shorting out all the motors to prove it wasn't a power supply glitch. The test would run indefinitely proving that the power supply had no trouble delivering the current needed: the problem was clearly due to the inductive nature of the load.

I couldn't see why the CPU was having trouble. I tried running it from a separate power supply, but still the resets were happening. Finally I found a bipolar electrolytic in the junk box and put that across one of the motors. Problem solved. On the CRO I could now see the spike. It was still around 80v, so it must have been much higher undamped. Not being a digital storage scope it was hard to see, and undamped impossible.

It seems that the inductive flyback from a stalled wiper motor is enough to somehow escape the relay, find it's way out through the driver transistors back on to the CPU board. That means pretty high voltages... maybe over 1kV. I'm just glad I didn't fry the CPU or any of it's pins.

All together now:





The software and UI got some bugs fixed, and other upgrades. Hopefully a will do a brew tomorrow night.


----------



## Zizzle

Tonight I stupidly walked away while testing out some new code that runs some of the steps in parallel (e.g. heating HLT to set-point while recirculating). The code was buggy and applied power to the HLT when it didn't have water in it. I smelt something was not happy, ripped the lid off the HLT to see both the elements glowing yellow hot. Hit the reset button. Remarkably they both survived, although now have a nice shade of blue. You can't beat the $9 kettle element:






I don't know how this may have effected their life span, but it sure did get all the gunk off them.


----------



## grinder

Hey Zizzle. 
Are you an Electrical engineer of something like that? How do you know how to do all this? Where can I learn how to do it?  
It's genius!!

Grinder


----------



## poppa joe

WOW...
But i think the yellow wire is the problem...  
Cheers
PJ


----------



## Zizzle

Yeah, I have a Systems Engineering degree following a mechanical engineering stream, but I work in software engineering (mostly self taught), and all the electronics engineering was self taught (during high school).

But mostly you've just got to be motivated to have a go, learn, fiddle around, and experiment.

Pick up some books on electronics. It's pretty easy to pick up and you can even avoid the complicated maths if that is not your thing. The internet is a great resource and I wish I had it when I was learning. Most of the time circuits for what you want to do have already been designed. It's just a matter of building them and integrating them with what you already have.


----------



## Steve

You are a Class A Nerd! In a nice way of course. Thats amazing.....like I said earlier in the thread. No idea half of what you're talking about but shit its good to see all your work/hobbies/passions coming together to make beer :beerbang: 

Cheers
Steve


----------



## devo

you know if you had painted it red it would go much faster!


----------



## Tony

I want one of these but i will tick the brewery option box instead of the BBQ option box  

you could thak that to summernats

cheers


----------



## Sammus

Tony said:


> I want one of these but i will tick the brewery option box instead of the BBQ option box
> 
> you could thak that to summernats
> 
> cheers



:lol: I think that spit might spin a little too fast. I guess it could be geared right down to turn an elephant or something :blink:


----------



## Zizzle

Short video of me testing the hop dropper tonight


----------



## Jye

Only 5 hop additions... thats barely enough to brew a wheaty 

Very nice work :beerbang:


----------



## Zizzle

Oops, should work again now Wally.

Jye: I ran out of pipe to make the hop holders. I think should hold at least 40g each tho.


----------



## Jye

Zizzle said:


> I think should hold at least 40g each tho.



So much to learn


----------



## yardy

bloody amazing zizzle, 2 years from now i can see a production line churning out brewbots for delivery nationwide. i'll knock up the production line for a heavily discounted brewbot if you like ;0 lol Cheers


----------



## bonj

Sweet video, mate.

I'd love to see the bot in action.


----------



## Zizzle

Well anytime your down this way give me a yell. Otherwise will do a brew day in the next couple of months.


----------



## winkle

It needs some black pin-striping and a twin over head foxtail.
Serious bit of kit mate.


----------



## bonj

Zizzle said:


> Well anytime your down this way give me a yell. Otherwise will do a brew day in the next couple of months.



Will do. A brew day sounds like a plan too.


----------



## Zizzle

Recent activity:

Upgraded to a wider kettle:






Move old kettle to new role as HLT. Redid the level probes:





Solenoid mounted on the side:










Zero to mash in under 15 minutes:


----------



## Zizzle

Brewbot now has a brother. One of the local forum members has been busy working away with a little help.

Although heavily influenced by the orginal, brewbot2 has it's own customisations. Similarly built from largely scrounged and improvised parts.
Aimed at a more permanent installation, it had it's inaugural run with success last night.





Gravity fed, 3 tier setup, attached to a wall.





The brains, hardware very similar to the original.





Some niceties are afforded by the permanent setup, such as being connected directly to a dedicated 25amp circuit.





March pump and windscreen wiper actuated ball valve.





HLT in the sky and it's wiper actuated ball valve.

Brewbot2 may actually beat the orginal to having a HERMs integrated.

Please form an orderly queue those wanting to place an order for Brewbot3


----------



## Zizzle

Got busy motorising my Barley Crusher using a garage door opener fished out of the bin (thanks Brad!). A nice little 200w 240v DC motor with worm drive and other reduction gears.











Then a quick'n'ugly MDF box over the lot to keep little fingers out of the high voltage areas & gears.





One less thing to have to stuff around with on brew day.


----------



## Pumpy

Zizzle you are a sheer mechanical wizard !!!!!

Pumpy


----------



## Zizzle

Not content to have a brewbot that actually worked I had to go and want it to be more compact. I also wanted to get rid off all brass & copper in contact with the wort. So part of the reorg is to minimize the number of fittings to replace.

Cut the frame in half and upended it...






The HLT now gravity feeds the MLT so the old actuated brass gates valves are gone, and a new ball valve mechanism...






Now just waiting for some more stainless steel bits to show up... brass be gone...


----------



## sqyre

I couldnt help think of you today Z-man... and no i wasnt interfering with myself in the shower... <_< 

My work chucked out thier old massive photocopier.. so i grabed it... why? i dont know...
But when i got home i plugged it in and started copying stuff (including my bum) untill i got bored...
Then as most bored red blooded Aussies with an insatiable curiousity do... i grabbed my philips head screwdriver and went to town in demolision mode...

I was rather hoping i would find a nice big motor with a half decent reduction drive on it to use for my Grain Mill but no luck so far..
However... i did stumble across a bunch of small motors with frigin major reduction drives...
24v -1.85 RPM

They are all plastic but I reckon they might be alright for turn taps on and off..

Sqyre...


----------



## Zizzle

Hell yeah, lets get that stairway automated!


----------



## sqyre

Not sure if i want "The Stairway" being assimilated by the Borg just yet...  

i have been in the shed stripping the photocopier down some more looking for goodies and i found a decent sized 20:1 reduction gearbox..
So i've been working on modifying that to hopefully power my grain mill...
its got plastic gears but hopefully the strain on it wont be too harsh...

also if you want any bits and pieces, like small gears, cogs,pullies etc. there are heaps in this copier you can have..
there also a heap of small electric clutches if you have a use for them, as well as a heap of other thing-a-me-jigs...

Sqyre...


----------



## Zizzle

New shiny toys:










Compared to the old one:






So no more hot acidic wort sitting in copper & brass for hours at a time.


----------



## alexbrand

Zizzle said:


> New shiny toys: [...]



Zizzle,

don't you have any problems with caramelizing the wort's sugar on the heating coils at boiling time?


Alex


----------



## afromaiko

Zizzle said:


> New shiny toys:
> 
> So no more hot acidic wort sitting in copper & brass for hours at a time.



Where did get the stainless pick up tube and fitting from? I'm going to add a pick up tube, but everything else is stainless so I wanted to steer clear off copper and brass too.


----------



## Zizzle

alexbrand said:


> don't you have any problems with caramelizing the wort's sugar on the heating coils at boiling time?



I've had the problem occur once. It was my first go at a wheat beer. So maybe something to do with the wheat, I don't know.

Since then I have modified the hardware so that all the elements are driven via triacs so that I can vary the duty cycle in software. For the last 6 or so brews (including a successful wheat beer) I have been driving the elements at 85% duty cycle. 2 x 2200w x 0.85 = 3740w. There is usually some white gunk on the elements after a boil, but it wipes right off and doesn't taste caramelised at all.

New stainless bling is from beerbelly.


----------



## Martin

Hi Zizzle, I've loved reading this topic  

I've been wondering about a few things: how does the brewbot prevent dough-balls when mashing in? Is it a simple underlet, and does the brewbot stir the mash? If no stirring, are temperature gradients in the mash a problem? Thanks!


----------



## Zizzle

I usually just remember to give the mash a stir, but if I'm not around or forget I'm not too worried. I have the code setup to give a short recirc every few minutes.

But an automated mash stirrer is in the works. Stay tuned.


----------



## chovain

Hey Zizzle,

I dream of putting together a setup like this one day. I want to start out with some microcontrolled power switching, and I have a couple of technical questions about your triac setup: 
* I assume you connect the opto to the triac via about a 340R? (Based on Vpeak of 340V)
* What power rating are your resistors?
* What frequency do you switch at for your power control?
* How have you connected the hot-side of the triacs to your high-current wiring? I'm assuming you don't run 10A through vero tracks .
* Have you ever toyed with voltage control (i.e. only partially opening the triac) instead of duty cycling?
* Any idea where you got your power triacs? Jaycar have a terrible range, and people like Farnell are just plain expensive.


----------



## mesa

Mark Chovain said:


> * What frequency do you switch at for your power control?



A while back I was running an electric boiler with a single kettle element switched by a sawtooth oscillator and comparator at about 0.5Hz (i.e. 2 seconds). I guess I assumed that with the huge thermal mass of 20+L of wort and relatively low thermal resistivity between the element and the wort that there wouldn't be particularly large variation in the temperature of the element. Then again I have no idea how hot the element gets relative to the wort or what effect the formation of bubbles has on the thermal resistivity.

I think what people usually do is use the mains power itself as a reference oscillator. so it would be operating at 50Hz (or kind of 100Hz since you could do the comparision on both half cycles)

I eventually stopped using the switching running the element at full power instead (not enough insulation on the kettle to run at lower power). Then I decided kettle elements at full power scorch the wort too much and switched to a nice gas system with a thick bottomed pot.



> * Have you ever toyed with voltage control (i.e. only partially opening the triac) instead of duty cycling?



I don't think a triac can be partly opened (if I remember what a triac is correctly) and if you did have some sort of power FET that could be partly opened, it would dissipate huge amounts on energy in the FET (necessitating huge heat sinking and wasted power)


----------



## chovain

Mark Chovain said:


> * Any idea where you got your power triacs? Jaycar have a terrible range, and people like Farnell are just plain expensive.


Oh, wait - I just found Jaycar's 15A triac...


----------



## chovain

mesa said:


> A while back I was running an electric boiler with a single kettle element switched by a sawtooth oscillator and comparator at about 0.5Hz (i.e. 2 seconds). [...]
> I think what people usually do is use the mains power itself as a reference oscillator. so it would be operating at 50Hz (or kind of 100Hz since you could do the comparision on both half cycles)


I suppose as long as I don't run faster than 100, it'll work. Thinking aloud here: One factor I suppose I should consider, is how fine control do I want? Since the Triac will latch until the next zero crossing, the on-off cycles can be modified only by multiples of 10ms. To keep the PWM generation simple, I probably want to pick a power-resolution that I'm happy with, and go for a fixed frequency based it on that. If I want to be able to tweak by 10% granularity -> 10Hz; 1% granularity -> 1Hz.



> I don't think a triac can be partly opened (if I remember what a triac is correctly) and if you did have some sort of power FET that could be partly opened, it would dissipate huge amounts on energy in the FET (necessitating huge heat sinking and wasted power)


You're right. I was a bit confused (never used triacs before, either).


----------



## Doogiechap

Mark Chovain said:


> I suppose as long as I don't run faster than 100, it'll work. Thinking aloud here: One factor I suppose I should consider, is how fine control do I want? Since the Triac will latch until the next zero crossing, the on-off cycles can be modified only by multiples of 10ms. To keep the PWM generation simple, I probably want to pick a power-resolution that I'm happy with, and go for a fixed frequency based it on that. If I want to be able to tweak by 10% granularity -> 10Hz; 1% granularity -> 1Hz.
> 
> 
> You're right. I was a bit confused (never used triacs before, either).



A partially informed comment. Triacs are used in my job of dimming lights in performances and do so by 'hacking' the leading or trailing edge of the sine wave. How this is done I can't remember as I wasn't paying enought attention in my electronics course in 1987  but it certainly happens.  
The dimmers I have are rated to 2400 watts but 4800 watt units are readily available.
Cheers
Doug


----------



## newguy

Your mains voltage is a sine wave with one positive and one negative excursion. The period, or total time for one complete cycle is 1/50 = 20ms. Each excursion is 10ms long. A triac can be triggered to conduct sometime "in the middle" of one of these sine peaks - positive or negative. In the absence of the trigger signal, the triac will naturally extinguish at the zero crossing of the sine wave.

Triggering in the middle of the sine wave is certainly possible, but the drawback is EMI (electromagnetic interference). In essence, the sharp vertical spike in the voltage applied to the load when it is turned on in the middle of one of these sine peaks is produced by the sum of a very large number (infinite, actually) of harmonics - of very high frequency. These harmonics will happily radiate from the power cord that connects the heater to the triac. And from the upstream cords as well.

EMI isn't that big of a deal for you, but it is for your neighbours or anyone else who may experience radio or tv interference. The power companies around here frown upon it because this type of interference is absorbed almost 100% by their transformers which can cause them to overheat. I'd suspect the power companies there feel the same way.

The easiest approach is to trigger the triac for x 1/2 full cycles - in essence "letting through" only integer multiples of the sine wave peaks. When I designed my HERMS, I allowed for 64 power levels - from 0 to 63 full (one positive one negative) sine wave periods. With my 60Hz mains, this full cycle takes just over a second, which corresponds to how often I take my temperature measurements.

You can control the firing angle on each and every sine peak, but you'll have a lot of EMI unless you incorporate a lot of power line filtering. Given the very slow reaction between power application and temperature change, doing things this quickly is overkill.


----------



## mesa

Mark Chovain said:


> I suppose as long as I don't run faster than 100, it'll work.


Correct. As long as your not faster than 100 you'll get some sort of control. How accurate that control is when your close to 100Hz but not quite 100 is another matter.


> Since the Triac will latch until the next zero crossing, the on-off cycles can be modified only by multiples of 10ms.


Not quite. You appear to be saying that you want to run for a whole number of cycles turned on then a whole number turned off. That would work but its not necessary to do that. You can only turn off at the end of every 10ms cycle, but you can turn on at any point in that cycle.

If you simply use the mains voltage as a reference (i.e. use a resistor divider and compare to the voltage on a potentiometer) to decide when to turn on its very easy to get control betwen 50% to 100% duty cycle (i.e. you can turn on whenever the voltage is going more positive or more negative but not when its returning to 0). If you want to get between 0 and 50% duty cycle you need to build your own oscillator which is either much slower so that you work roughly in whole numbers of cycles as above, or run it at 25Hz and lock it in phase with the mains voltage (you would also need an edge detector so that your triac would switch on when your comparator went either on or off)

Personally I would just run the boiler at full power all the time. If I was worried about scorching, I'd run 4 elements instead of 1 (i.e. 2 in series then two series groups in parallel) that would maintain the total power but quarter the power density (I wish I'd though of this before investing in an LPG system). If I was doing a small batch on a system designed for larger batches I'd probably just unplug one of the two series groups entirely (halve the total power). 

Ultimately though, returning to the question of brewing rather than electronics ;-) I don't really know what the advantage of controlling your boil rate is? If you've got a big enough kettle to avoid boil over can you boil to hard? Or is it all about not scorching the wort in an electric system?


----------



## chovain

I've actually seen references a kind of optocoupler called a "zero-crossing" coupler. These have a bit of trickery in the output stage that delays opening of the triac until the next zero crossing. Maybe I'll look at using the MOC3041: It's got a 15mA trigger (suits the 25mA IO on my PIC), and 400uA hold current. That'll eliminate most of the noise.


----------



## chovain

mesa said:


> Correct. As long as your not faster than 100 you'll get some sort of control. How accurate that control is when your close to 100Hz but not quite 100 is another matter.
> 
> Not quite. You appear to be saying that you want to run for a whole number of cycles turned on then a whole number turned off. That would work but its not necessary to do that. You can only turn off at the end of every 10ms cycle, but you can turn on at any point in that cycle.
> 
> If you simply use the mains voltage as a reference (i.e. use a resistor divider and compare to the voltage on a potentiometer) to decide when to turn on its very easy to get control betwen 50% to 100% duty cycle (i.e. you can turn on whenever the voltage is going more positive or more negative but not when its returning to 0). If you want to get between 0 and 50% duty cycle you need to build your own oscillator which is either much slower so that you work roughly in whole numbers of cycles as above, or run it at 25Hz and lock it in phase with the mains voltage (you would also need an edge detector so that your triac would switch on when your comparator went either on or off)



I should probably have pointed out beforehand that I'm going to be using an MCU with a crystal clock and PWM module for this, so accurate timings are not a problem. I also want to keep the DC stuff isolated from the AC (for sanity reasons as much as anything, but also so it can be tested easily without connecting it to mains), so I want to avoid using mains as a reference.



> Ultimately though, returning to the question of brewing rather than electronics ;-) I don't really know what the advantage of controlling your boil rate is? If you've got a big enough kettle to avoid boil over can you boil to hard? Or is it all about not scorching the wort in an electric system?



My main reason is because it's interesting, and I love tinkering .


----------



## Zizzle

Mark Chovain said:


> I dream of putting together a setup like this one day. I want to start out with some microcontrolled power switching, and I have a couple of technical questions about your triac setup:
> * I assume you connect the opto to the triac via about a 340R? (Based on Vpeak of 340V)
> * What power rating are your resistors?
> * What frequency do you switch at for your power control?
> * How have you connected the hot-side of the triacs to your high-current wiring? I'm assuming you don't run 10A through vero tracks .
> * Have you ever toyed with voltage control (i.e. only partially opening the triac) instead of duty cycling?
> * Any idea where you got your power triacs? Jaycar have a terrible range, and people like Farnell are just plain expensive.



The data sheets for most triacs have a reference circuit that you can use.

Basically for my triac setup I canabalised a board already setup to do it.

See these boards:
http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//produ...products_id=166
http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//produ...products_id=668

I used the first board in the brewbot, but would recommend the second, which is better rated, and what I gave Brad to use in his bot. I think they are both opto isolated.

You will need a little skill to follow the tracks and work out the circuit diagram for the board. I hacked off the micro part of the board and used the power electronics part only, but you don't need to do that on the second board.

Both use nice wide tracks to handle the current, and I used soldered to the places designation to take main to/from the board.

At the moment brewbot uses fairly course control. Cycles times of a second or more. There is that much thermal mass that you could nearly get away will a cycle time of a minute or so.

You might also want to consider Solid State Relays. They would be much less stuffing around, but more expensive.

http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//produ...products_id=526

Stay motivated, keep asking questions, and you'll learn a heap and have a lot of fun.


----------



## browndog

I've been following this thread as I'd like to build an electric boiler one day as they are much more economical than gas and you don't have to worry about running out of electricity mid boil. I'd like to but in here and say boilovers are a real threat and having a big kettle (not ginormous) is not the answer. I have a 50L kettle and my preboil is 33L, my nasa is set to give me a robust boil and I never alter the regulator. If I am brewing a mid range beer, a boilover is the last thing one my mind, however if I am making a high gravity beer then a boilover could happen any time, it is even worse if there are a lot of hops involved. I think this is why you need to be able to vary the power going to the element. You can't design your kettle around your element, however, I guess there are elements more suited to a 50L boiler.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## newguy

browndog said:


> I've been following this thread as I'd like to build an electric boiler one day as they are much more economical than gas and you don't have to worry about running out of electricity mid boil. I'd like to but in here and say boilovers are a real threat and having a big kettle (not ginormous) is not the answer. I have a 50L kettle and my preboil is 33L, my nasa is set to give me a robust boil and I never alter the regulator. If I am brewing a mid range beer, a boilover is the last thing one my mind, however if I am making a high gravity beer then a boilover could happen any time, it is even worse if there are a lot of hops involved. I think this is why you need to be able to vary the power going to the element. You can't design your kettle around your element, however, I guess there are elements more suited to a 50L boiler.



A friend of mine built himself an electric brewery in his basement. He did 10 gallon batches. He had 2 x 4500W elements in his kettle and didn't have any fancy driving circuit either. Just two switches. Both on to bring it up to a boil. Once it started to boil, one off. He didn't have any problems with scorching either. Long story, but the larger the element is (physically), the less chance of scorching as there is a larger surface area which brings down the power density (watts/cm^2) in contact with the wort. You can buy elements with different rated power densities (link here and another here).


----------



## chovain

newguy said:


> Long story, but the larger the element is (physically), the less chance of scorching as there is a larger surface area which brings down the power density (watts/cm^2) in contact with the wort.



Or as mesa points out, put a couple of elements in series, then duplicate in parallel. Elements are relatively ohmic, so by having two on a circuit, you'll halve each elements voltage drop, while leaving the resistance about the same. P=V^2/R, so each element quarters in power. Duplicating the circuit brings you up to the original power.

That arrangement has quarter the power density of a normal element, and would work well if you had a source of kettle elements.


----------



## randyrob

hmm.. first automation thread i could find sorry zizzle!

has anyone thought about or used "Arduino" for brewery automation

http://www.arduino.cc/



> Arduino is an open-source electronics prototyping platform based on flexible, easy-to-use hardware and software. It's intended for artists, designers, hobbyists, and anyone interested in creating interactive objects or environments.
> 
> Arduino can sense the environment by receiving input from a variety of sensors and can affect its surroundings by controlling lights, motors, and other actuators.



there very cheap if they suit the purpose, starting from $17 locally.


dreaming of the next big thing
Rob.


----------



## bonj

Hey Randyrob,

I have an arduino diecimila here that I have grand plans for. Step one was to get the DS18S20s reading temperatures, but it seems that all three samples I've got are duds. :angry: I have been troubleshooting them with a DS1820 guru on one of the arduino forums, but they're definitely cactus... I'm pretty mad about that because they were free samples from Maxim. I also have an ex-Nokia mobile phone LCD, that I'd love to incorporate if I have enough pins free. Just watch the prices from some of the local suppliers as they don't include GST (which I thought was illegal for retail) and you only find this out during the ordering.


----------



## the_fuzz

Bonj said:


> Hey Randyrob,
> 
> I have an arduino diecimila here that I have grand plans for. Step one was to get the DS18S20s reading temperatures, but it seems that all three samples I've got are duds. :angry: I have been troubleshooting them with a DS1820 guru on one of the arduino forums, but they're definitely cactus... I'm pretty mad about that because they were free samples from Maxim. I also have an ex-Nokia mobile phone LCD, that I'd love to incorporate if I have enough pins free. Just watch the prices from some of the local suppliers as they don't include GST (which I thought was illegal for retail) and you only find this out during the ordering.



I've got 2 DS1820s 's here you can have?


----------



## randyrob

i put in my order for 2 x samples of DS18S20+ back in November last year and they still haven't rocked up,
where would be the best place to buy them?


----------



## bonj

DS18B20 (parasite power only) AUS$4.15ea : http://www.modtronix.com.au/product_info.p...products_id=285
DS18B20 AUS$6.50ea : http://www.microzed.com.au/chips.html
DS18S20 (powered or parasite) AUS$12ea : http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/data_acqui...logger_k145.htm

The + means it's certified lead-free, I believe.


----------



## bonj

Anyone used the LM35 analog sensors? They're only A$1.85ea at modtronix. Is 0.8 of a degree accuracy (at the extremes (0degC and 100degC)) good enough? I like the idea of being able to chain the DS1820s on a single bus, but I don't want to order three more and get three more duds.

edit: forgot to close a bracket


----------



## Zizzle

They might not be duds Bonj. They are pretty fussy about the bus timings.

Did you try wiring up the circuit that allows you to run them from the serial port on your PC?


----------



## bonj

Zizzle said:


> They might not be duds Bonj. They are pretty fussy about the bus timings.
> 
> Did you try wiring up the circuit that allows you to run them from the serial port on your PC?


I haven't yet, as I don't have a serial port within easy access. I will try it though, just to make sure. I used the OneWire library available for the arduino development environment, which many have reported success with on identical hardware (the arduino diecimila is an AVR ATmega168 @ 16MHz), so while possible, it would be unlikely that the timing worked for all those others but not for mine. They won't even respond to a reset, which is supposed to pull the pin LOW. The reset code is pretty simple:


Code:


//

// Perform the onewire reset function.  We will wait up to 250uS for

// the bus to come high, if it doesn't then it is broken or shorted

// and we return a 0;

//

// Returns 1 if a device asserted a presence pulse, 0 otherwise.

//

uint8_t OneWire::reset() {

	uint8_t r;

	uint8_t retries = 125;



	// wait until the wire is high... just in case

	pinMode(pin,INPUT);

	do {

		if ( retries-- == 0) return 0;

		delayMicroseconds(2);

	} while( !digitalRead( pin));



	digitalWrite(pin,0);   // pull low for 500uS

	pinMode(pin,OUTPUT);

	delayMicroseconds(500);

	pinMode(pin,INPUT);

	delayMicroseconds(65);

	r = !digitalRead(pin);

	delayMicroseconds(490);

	return r;

}


I do suppose after reading that code again, that I should ensure that it's not just timing out on the retry loop, but either way, they were wired up correctly and tried on both powered and parasite configuration, with no response. There's definitely something wrong.


----------



## Zizzle

Have you got a CRO there Bonj so you can have a quick look at the waveform?

What value pull up resistor do you have?


----------



## bonj

I don't have one, but I will borrow my brother inlaw's to check them out.

I can't remember off hand, and am too lazy to check the datasheet, but I think it was a 4.7K.


----------



## mesa

Bonj said:


> Anyone used the LM35 analog sensors? They're only A$1.85ea at modtronix. Is 0.8 of a degree accuracy (at the extremes (0degC and 100degC)) good enough? I like the idea of being able to chain the DS1820s on a single bus, but I don't want to order three more and get three more duds.
> 
> edit: forgot to close a bracket



I used them in my old fridge controller (since moved to a mashmaster since my construction is so dodgy it eventually fell to pieces) They work well. If your reading them with a computer via ADC no problem. If you are using them in an analogue circuit you will probably want to use the offset pin to make them read correctly in degress kelvin. The biggest problem I had was the supply circuit for the LM35 shared a +5V rail with the supply for the optoisolator driving my triac. When the fridge turned on there was enough voltage drop on the supply rail to alter the reading from the optoisolator. I tried buffering it with a bigger capacitor but it was still a problem. So if you are going to use one, overengineer the supply rails for the LM35 and comparators. 

BTW I wouldn't run the DS18S20s on parasitic power for similar reasons. Reading the spec sheet they loose accuracy at higher temperatures (above 80C IIRC) when on parasitic power because the conversion takes longer and they don't have enough juice available to keep functioning through the whole cycle. Having said that I haven't played with my DS18S20s yet so take that with a grain of salt.


----------



## randyrob

does anyone know what sensor is inside the mash master probe here

could make life easy!


----------



## Hutch

randyrob said:


> does anyone know what sensor is inside the mash master probe here
> 
> could make life easy!



An analogue NTC sensor by the looks of it (negative temp coefficient resitor). Not sure what the specifics are though (you could easily work out it's resistance @20deg though with a multimeter). 

I'm sure Frank will give you more info than this.


----------



## newguy

Bonj said:


> Anyone used the LM35 analog sensors? They're only A$1.85ea at modtronix. Is 0.8 of a degree accuracy (at the extremes (0degC and 100degC)) good enough? I like the idea of being able to chain the DS1820s on a single bus, but I don't want to order three more and get three more duds.



I use LM35's in my HERMS - they're reliable and accurate. I've also played around with 1820's with no issues. Unless you can scope the data line to ensure that your firmware isn't the issue, don't assume that the sensor is at fault. <_< Hang on. What sort of ESD countermeasures do you follow? That would explain why they're not working for you.

Regarding the accuracy of the LM35, I'm reminded of a quote I read elsewhere: A man with a thermometer knows the temperature. A man with two thermometers is never sure. A roundabout way of saying don't worry about the 0.8C accuracy as "ordinary" thermometers don't come with an accuracy spec - you can only hope they're as accurate as the LM35.


----------



## bonj

newguy said:


> I use LM35's in my HERMS - they're reliable and accurate. I've also played around with 1820's with no issues. Unless you can scope the data line to ensure that your firmware isn't the issue, don't assume that the sensor is at fault. <_< Hang on. What sort of ESD countermeasures do you follow? That would explain why they're not working for you.
> 
> Regarding the accuracy of the LM35, I'm reminded of a quote I read elsewhere: A man with a thermometer knows the temperature. A man with two thermometers is never sure. A roundabout way of saying don't worry about the 0.8C accuracy as "ordinary" thermometers don't come with an accuracy spec - you can only hope they're as accurate as the LM35.



Now that you mention the ESD countermeasures, I have a feeling that the laptop doesn't have a good enough ground for me to ground myself properly. I guess I could have staticed them to death.

If I used the LM35, they'd be connected to the analog pins on the atmega168.


----------



## newguy

The thing about ESD is that you actually don't have to come into contact with the electronics/chip; you can damage it without touching it. Some of the more sensitive RF stuff that I've been involved with could easily be fried just by coming within about 1m without being properly grounded. The best solution would be to get a proper ESD mat, but simply running a wire from your house outlet's ground to your wrist helps. Also try to clear your workspace of paper. Paper is very, very good at holding a charge which is very bad from an ESD point of view.

Regarding running the LM35 into an ATmega, that's essentially what I do (sort of). I use the Microchip PIC family myself. To get a better range from the A/D converter without adding an amp, consider using an external voltage reference instead of the processor's internal Vdd reference. The general idea is that you get a larger A/D change (number) per degree celcius change when you use a reference that's smaller than the 3.3V or 5V power supply of your processor. This leads to a more accurate temperature reading. The only thing to watch for is that some built-in A/Ds actually have a minimum external Vref without incurring an accuracy hit. For most 5V PICs this is about 3V - you'd have to look into whether this is an issue with the Atmel processors.


----------



## bonj

Alright.... some idiot apparently used a 4.7ohm pullup resistor, when they should have used a 4.7Kohm. Needless to say, that person will not be named, so as to avoid public humiliation. h34r: All 3 sensors are now returning data.


----------



## randyrob

nice work bonj!


still looking which kit ot get myself a work mate just got the nano which as just been released!

this one looks the goods and cheap as! $28.00





Rob.

i'm thinkin we start a new thread bonj for all this Arduion Stuff and give poor zizzles thread a break!

i can see a few ppl getting on board with this stuff in the future seeing as it's getting easier and more accessible!


----------



## bonj

New thread here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=24429


----------



## Zizzle

Just got one of these to run the brewbot (some day when I'm back in Oz):






It boots linux, and has plenty of grunt for embedded controller:

http://www.friendlyarm.net/products/mini2440

I think i might get the 7" touch screen version for the brewbot though.


----------



## Doc

Just checked it out Zizzle.
That looks like an awesome little unit with immense potential.
I couldn't see a price on it though.
What is the damage ?

If there was one more piece of tin I'd like to see incorporated though, it would be a wireless module.

Doc


----------



## Scruffy

Ethernet...


Hmmm...

You could put a brew on ANYWHERE!!!


----------



## bonj

That looks awesome, Zizzle!

I want one


----------



## Yorg

Help me out here brothers.
I'm from the other side of the planet from hardcore computer guys like you.
Still, I like the degree of difficulty of automating at least some of my brewery.
So, what would be the best 'platform' for me?
I'm happy to devote an old laptop to this app if it came to it.
Arduino? FriendlyArm? Embedded control concepts BCS-460, Picax. What the F are these actually - I'm not sure if these are of the same category.
I need an orientation to this, can ahyone help with an 'English' reference, or at least get me started with a quick explanation.
Cheers.


----------



## ArnieW

Hi Yorg,

not sure about all the items you mentioned, but mostly they would be different platforms for doing the same thing. Arduino and picaxe are both microprocessor platforms designed for easy programming with good help forums and the like. Basically you start with a chip and then have to figure out all the bits to add on to make it do what you want. You can get industrial strength controllers that will cost an arm and leg but probably be easier to build in terms of the physical interfacing.

I've been coding with a picaxe for a long time and mostly it does what I want it to do. It has some limitations that I find annoying but it is very cheap and easy to use. The arduino is more powerful than the picaxe in most things.

Programming an automated system is a huge undertaking. After doing this for a long time I've conceded that the BrewTroller guys have got a pretty special thing happening which is why I've got one arriving this week.

That frees up my picaxe stuff for making smart add ons, like a hop dropper.

The thing that Zizzle was showcasing is effectively a standalone computer in its own right. You could replace your laptop idea with one of those.

cheers, Arnie


----------



## Zizzle

You could pick one up off ebay for about AU$125 it seems:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/MINI2440-S3C2440-AR...p3286.m63.l1177

Even better than ethernet, just plug in a USB Wifi adapter.


----------



## randyrob

Hey Zizzle,

Awesome Find!

for that price it would be worth grabbing one just for a play :icon_drool2: Actually it would tie in very nicely with what i'm doing at the moment!

My last brewday was on friday, i setup my variables and remotely monitored my brewery via my iphone while at work, by the time i got home

it was into the last hour of the boil, so i sanitized a cube, emptied out the mashtun and grabbed a takeaway curry and a porter...ahh life is good :icon_cheers: 


Be interested to see how you go and thanks for updating us

Rob.


----------



## ArnieW

randyrob said:


> My last brewday was on friday, i setup my variables and remotely monitored my brewery via my iphone while at work, by the time i got home
> 
> it was into the last hour of the boil, so i sanitized a cube, emptied out the mashtun and grabbed a takeaway curry and a porter...ahh life is good :icon_cheers:


Nice work Rob. How did you make the connection between arduino and iphone?


----------



## Yorg

Thanks guys,
Between posts I have been researching, but obviously have a long way to go. So far its between Picaxe and Arduino.
One of the things I like about the picaxe is that it can be programmed in BASIC - which I could dust off from Apple II days as a kid.
It also seems to have a lot of support with flowchart programming and visual simulation.
Three more questions:
1/ Is the Arduino language particularly more difficult?
2/ Can either of them be controlled from a Windows environment, not just program download, but a visual "control panel". (Any resources links you have on this?)
3/ Can either of them do 2, but also be wirelessly connected to the Windows environment/PC?

Cheers.
Yorg.


----------



## Yorg

Just saw that link to the FreindlyArm. Is it just the colour screen that's impressing me, or does that present an alternative to the Picaxe and Arduino??


----------



## bonj

Yorg,

Arduino is basically an AVR platform microcontroller, and the arduino environment is basically the C programming language (or so close you may aswell assume it is C).
For me, that is a major advantage over PicAxe, because C is my language of choice. BASIC is fairly easy to program in, but hs a few issues that limit it, and make it more difficult if you know a more powerful language. A famous computer scientist (Edsger Dijkstra) once said that programmers with prior exposure to BASIC: "as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. " :lol: Well that's me rooted, as I grew up with BASIC in the '80s too.


----------



## randyrob

ArnieW said:


> Nice work Rob. How did you make the connection between arduino and iphone?



Hey Arnie,

I dug a trench from the shed to the house and ran a cable, then vnc in via the iphone.
It's about the simplest method i could think off that didn't require any extra equipment

Rob.


----------



## Zizzle

Glad to see you guys making some impressive progress there.

Rob with some remote monitoring, and actually enough courage/faith to leave it run unattended.

ArnieW, I was excited to see some ball valve activation for HERMAN, looks pretty similar to mine.

I know Brad has also been making some progress on hit brewbot. Perspex front cover over 240x128 display. And has been really learning how to program in C.

I'm itching to get home and mine up and running again. My plans just keep getting bigger.


----------



## ArnieW

Zizzle said:


> ArnieW, I was excited to see some ball valve activation for HERMAN, looks pretty similar to mine.


Yep Zizzle, just as your hop dropper was inspired by mine, my ball valve activator was inspired by yours. I'm close to building a solid state version with proper 'stop' feedback. cheers mate, come back soon.


----------



## eccsynd

ArnieW said:


> Nice work Rob. How did you make the connection between arduino and iphone?



The BCS-460 temperature controller and brewery automation system has an iPhone interface : http://software.druidhillroad.com/Site/Brew_Buddy.html






Obviously if you completely code your own interface, you get EXACTLY what you want, nothing more, nothing less. But the BCS-460 has much of the work done for you, complete with an iPhone compatible interface.


----------



## Zizzle

Got a look at Brad's brewbot in it's latest revision yesterday.

The control box is starting to look a little complicated.





One of the problems is that minor changes in one area can be difficult or cause regressions in another.

Which got me thinking about how to reduce complexity.

In the software world we use modularization.

So I started thinking about adding some smaller dedicated controllers to the mix that communicate with the master controller.

For example have a simple controller dedicated to and attached to the HLT. It would read a single DS1820, have a relay for mains water solenoid, 2 for heat element power and ADCs for level probes.

I'm off to do some embedded controller shopping.

I'm liking the look of this one http://www.futurlec.com.au/ET-Easy168_Stamp.jsp Nice and small.


----------



## Zizzle

Very cool little micro controller board http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/


----------



## Zizzle

Did a bringup on my LPC2103 ARM board last night.






Not as easy as an AVR, but looks like it could be a good little controller.

Saw this ferment monitoring project today that has got me thinking:

http://middlewaresensing.wordpress.com/201...ine-monitoring/


----------



## kirem

Zizzle said:


> Saw this ferment monitoring project today that has got me thinking:
> 
> http://middlewaresensing.wordpress.com/201...ine-monitoring/



yeah interesting stuff. the brewtroller project is keen to get pH and gravity real time monitoring up and running


----------



## justsomeguy

I stumbled across this one earlier today that looks like an interesting little gadget.
http://leaflabs.com/devices/maple/

Lots of memory and IO pins to play with and they've made the interface similar to the Arduino to ease the transition.

garyd


----------



## Zizzle

Yeah I've seen those Maple boards before. They look interesting, but pricey.

I haven't got any yet, but I really like the look of the Teensy I posed above. They are small and run native USB interface instead of the converter chip that Arduino uses.

I've been playing with my Easy168 lately. Very easy to get going as an Arduino clone. Got DS1820 and LCD stuff up pretty much with a few clicks and bit of cut and paste from the example sketches under linux.

But price reminds me, TI has some cheap micro controller boards. $4.30 each. Bargain. Only problem is I think this effort was too popular. Mine have been on back order for a month or more.

http://hackaday.com/2010/06/22/ti-makes-a-...e-hobby-market/


----------



## Zizzle

There are rumours around the Zizzle household about Brewbot Mk2 being built stateside.

Just got one of these for free as part of a design contest:






http://www.renesasrulz.com/community/rx-contest

My competition proposal to get me the free board was about producing a brewbot style design using the renesas board.

SWMBO has lots of recipe ideas she wants to try with some off center ingredients, so wants to start doing small batches.

At this point I'm thinking MK2 would be somewhat of a departure from the original brewbot.

* small batch machine: ~4-5 litre batch size.
* single vessel BIAB design (rigid stainless mesh for the "bag")
* automate cleaning where possible, otherwise optimize/minimize manual cleaning
* possible pump-less design, or cheap pump only used for CIP
* possible integrated no-chill vessel / fermenter (mainly for CIP circulation access)

Automating the lifting of a couple of Kg of wet grain with a small winch should be possible. One problem could be it dripping into the boiled wort. So it may be a lift and swing.
A heating element would be incorporated into the bottom of the vessel. Low heat applied during the mash.
Hop dropper would be designed around some swinging cups on servos (micro servos are now only ~$3 delivered out of china)

SWMBO will be doing a trial gallon batch "Eggnog Stout" on the stove tonight to see how it goes.


----------



## raven19

Zizzle said:


> One problem could be it dripping into the boiled wort. So it may be a lift and swing.



Some drippining initially would be beneficial to get more wort from the soaked grain though.

Once it gets up to the boil though, it would need swinging away for sure.

Sounds like a good little unit planned there Zizzle!


----------



## newguy

Zizzle said:


> Automating the lifting of a couple of Kg of wet grain with a small winch should be possible. One problem could be it dripping into the boiled wort. So it may be a lift and swing.



Ever see an old fashioned wringer washing machine? Use a winch to pull the bag out, slowly, through a pair of rollers that are spring loaded (springs are arranged to keep the rollers together). Arrange the winch to be above and to the side of the pot so that after the bag clears the rollers, gravity pulls it to the side away from the mouth of the pot. The rollers squeeze out the wort and the physical arrangement doesn't require a swing arm.


----------



## Zizzle

In a somewhat controversial move, you will all be surprised to learn that I've elected *not* to do lots of 3D cad drawings, purchase masses of gear, have a 43 day schedule, or build a 3D printer for my brewbot mk2.

The design is pretty simple and I made good progress in one sunday's worth of effort so far.

http://zizzle-brewbot.blogspot.com/


----------



## goomboogo

Zizzle said:


> In a somewhat controversial move, you will all be surprised to learn that I've elected *not* to do lots of 3D cad drawings, purchase masses of gear, have a 43 day schedule, or build a 3D printer for my brewbot mk2.
> 
> The design is pretty simple and I made good progress in one sunday's worth of effort so far.
> 
> http://zizzle-brewbot.blogspot.com/



Controversial - no. Crazy - yes. You've got it all wrong. More talk, less action. And not even a mention of naked beer drinking ladies.


----------



## bum

You say that like it is a good thing.


----------



## InCider

Zizzle said:


> In a somewhat controversial move, you will all be surprised to learn that I've elected *not* to do lots of 3D cad drawings, purchase masses of gear, have a 43 day schedule, or build a 3D printer for my brewbot mk2.
> 
> The design is pretty simple and I made good progress in one sunday's worth of effort so far.
> 
> http://zizzle-brewbot.blogspot.com/



I do have a soft spot for CAD and overzealous purchases AND alien masks ... :lol:


----------



## clarkey7

That's awesome Zizzle.

1st beer should be Bengali Tiger IPA  

PB


----------



## Zizzle

I've been a bit slack with my blogging. I've actually been making some good progress. A quick update for now:

http://zizzle-brewbot.blogspot.com/2011/01...s-movement.html


----------



## Zizzle

A new update, now with video!

http://zizzle-brewbot.blogspot.com/2011/01...e-progress.html


----------



## Screwtop

Zizzle said:


> A new update, now with video!
> 
> http://zizzle-brewbot.blogspot.com/2011/01...e-progress.html




Go Go Gadget...............Brewbot MKII

Happy New Year Mate!

Screwy


----------



## Zizzle

Once again, been some progress without any blogs.
So a batch of 2 including a maiden test brew.

http://zizzle-brewbot.blogspot.com/2011/02...and-probes.html
http://zizzle-brewbot.blogspot.com/2011/02...-test-brew.html


----------



## Superoo

hey Ziggle,
what sort of processor you using to run this little beast ?

cheers,
Chris


----------



## Zizzle

It's using a Renesas RX62N dev kit board. Actually for a design competition.

http://www.renesasrulz.com/community/rx-contest

It's a pretty sweet board. Especially for free. Waiting for the free wifi add-on board to show up now too.

Total overkill for the brewbot.

I will be able to run a webserver on there and have some pretty graphs of the mash tho.

Plus the obligatory iPhone control.

BTW, interesting misspelling.


----------



## thelastspud

It looks like its all coming together for you, Its been an interesting read even though
some of the electronics talk goes over my head.
Keep the updates coming. 
thanks


----------



## Zizzle

http://zizzle-brewbot.blogspot.com/2011/02...ot-and-bag.html

Now with new stainless steel brew pot, silver soldered fittings, and stainless steel bag.


----------



## Zizzle

Hop Droppers update:

http://zizzle-brewbot.blogspot.com/2011/02...e-droppers.html


----------



## Zizzle

The competition entry is in, including a new video.

http://www.renesasrulz.com/docs/DOC-1786


----------



## jyo

Zizzle said:


> The competition entry is in, including a new video.
> 
> http://www.renesasrulz.com/docs/DOC-1786



That is a beautiful thing, mate. Awesome work.


----------



## mxd

Zizzle said:


> The competition entry is in, including a new video.
> 
> http://www.renesasrulz.com/docs/DOC-1786



well done, it looks great


----------



## Bizier

Very impressive Zizzle.


----------



## NickB

Outstanding work Matt!

Finally someone taking technology and making it useful 

But seriously, brilliant stuff.

Cheers


----------



## unrealeous

Well done Zizzle - hope you win the competition! Who would have thought you could get this far without a 3-d printer.


----------



## devo

Love ya work Zizzle. :beer:


----------



## schooey

Good shit, John Butler!!...best of luck in the comp, mate


----------



## Bandito

Thats mad! I'm sure you'll get 1st place!

Automated BIAB FTW!

You going into mass production? Should consider it.


----------



## thelastspud

yep thats pretty awesome


----------



## mika

Bandito said:


> .....
> 
> You going into mass production? Should consider it.



Think you might already have a customer Zizzle h34r:


----------



## ArnieW

Nice work zizzle - inspirational!


----------



## ekul

Do you ferment in the keg at the end?


----------



## Zizzle

Cheers guys. Nah the keg at the end is just for no chill. I was bit short on time in the video, and a bit loose with the terminology for the less beery audience.

We actually have a 3 gallon glass carboy for fermenting.

Anyway, it's making it's way around the nerd sites now:

http://hackaday.com/2011/03/28/automated-h...om-add-on-ever/


----------



## QldKev

Excellent work! What are the next plans with it?

QldKev


----------



## Fents

simply amazing! :kooi: 

bandito take note.


----------



## kirem

well done zizzle, some great motivation for me.

I've got a one pot screamer under build atm. I'm using the Brewtroller as the brains and automation from dough-in to wort-at-fermentation temp.


----------



## Superoo

Great stuff Zizzle, a lot of time gone into that.

What type of display is that ? 

cheers,
Chris


----------



## Leigh

Sensational work Matt!

So how much and where's the que? On something like this, I'd do single batches and pump one or two a week!


----------



## Zizzle

Plans for what next are probably a peristaltic pump to recirc the wort during the mash.
I have a wifi card to go in it.
Some tweaks to the software to make it fetch the time from the network (it doesn't have a battery backed clock).

The display is probably a phone display. It came with the board. Pretty low res. You can get them pretty cheap: http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?mai...products_id=155

I'd prefer to use something like this http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?mai...products_id=263

Any build log for your 'bot kirem?


----------



## bignath

Simply amazing work Zizzle!

So much thought and hard work's obviously gone into that...

Cheers,

Nathan


----------



## Zizzle

Ended up getting 3rd place, $1000 prize. So more than paid for the 'bot.

http://www.renesasrulz.com/community/rx-contest


----------



## InCider

Of the top three entries your application of the Renesas board was the most useful for mankind. :beerbang: 

Great work mate


----------



## bonj

3rd is a good result, Zizzle. Well done.


----------



## Stormahead

Amazing work man, great to see people challenge the norm and come up with stuff like this


----------



## gava

well done!!! thats a great little bot..

Now if you could make my rig clean itself I'd be a happy man.


----------



## Zizzle

Thanks guys.

Partner prizes have been announced.

Looks like I win an extra $250 and one each of these:

http://www.totalphase.com/products/aardvark_i2cspi/

http://www.totalphase.com/products/spi_devkit/


----------



## ArnieW

Zizzle said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Partner prizes have been announced.
> 
> Looks like I win an extra $250 and one each of these:
> 
> http://www.totalphase.com/products/aardvark_i2cspi/
> 
> http://www.totalphase.com/products/spi_devkit/


Nice work Matt.

Do you have plans to keep developing the BrewBot? What refinements are on the list?


----------



## Thunus

Zizzle said:


> Ended up getting 3rd place, $1000 prize. So more than paid for the 'bot.
> 
> http://www.renesasrulz.com/community/rx-contest




Well done , awesome work
:icon_cheers:


----------



## rbtmc

This is pretty spectacular. Do you have a video of this thing in action?


----------



## Zizzle

ArnieW said:


> Do you have plans to keep developing the BrewBot? What refinements are on the list?



I have a wifi module to be hooked up to it. At the moment I've just been using ethernet.

The web ui could be a bit better. I actually recently ported a Python interpreter to the board to make rapid prototyping much easier.

I will get it to sync up with an internet time server when it starts. The board has a RTC, just no battery backup.

I might get a 3.2" TFT touch screen for it. They are pretty cheap these days.

Probably do some experiments with a peristaltic pump - recirc during the mash.


----------



## Zizzle

rbtmc said:


> This is pretty spectacular. Do you have a video of this thing in action?



Here is my youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/mattprattau?feature=mhum


----------



## jamiefbacon

good job mate thats an awesome bit of gear!! amazes me how you designed and worked all that out. Im a boilermaker so blown away by all the technical electronics and all, good job


----------



## Lakey

AMAZING!!!! Best invention I have ever seen!


----------



## Zizzle

Ghetto peristaltic pump progress.


----------



## Amber Fluid

Absolutely Amazing Bloody Job!!!!!

I take my hat off to you. Well Done!!


----------



## matho

good job zizzle, love the springs certainly would make mounting the pvc pipe easier i had a bitch of a time with mine getting it centered just right.

cheers matho


----------



## Paul H

I admire how you can just think up this shit, my brain hurts just watching your work.

Cheers

Paul


----------



## jbumpstead

Fantastic work! Now to make it clean up after itself...


----------



## yardy

nice job :icon_chickcheers: 





Zizzle said:


> Ghetto peristaltic pump progress.


----------



## Bizier

You wouldn't know how to go ghetto if you tried Zizzle. It seems you only know resolved and yet-to-be polished, and resolved and polished. Great work. Perhaps you could work the spasming output hose into the design as a wort return sprinkler


----------



## Zizzle

matho said:


> good job zizzle, love the springs certainly would make mounting the pvc pipe easier i had a bitch of a time with mine getting it centered just right.



Yeah that was the whole premise from the start - some flexibility is needed to account for the low accuracy - I don't even have a drill press here.

Nearly all the commercial pumps have nice rigid pump bodies and rollers. I actually wanted to build an eccentric pump.







But they don't work well with the idea of rollers on springs. The spring would need to be pretty stiff to squash two lots of hose at the top. This would mean extra pressure on the hose for the rest of the revolution.



Bumma said:


> Fantastic work! Now to make it clean up after itself...



The hard part is always getting rid of the grain.

I'm thinking of a recirc system and a sump, a bit like how a dishwater works. No space for that here, but want to try that with my mk 1 brewbot back in Aus one day.

This little brewbot is actually pretty easy to clean. The grain is pretty easy to deal with thanks to the rigid stainless bag. The stirrer comes off with a single R-clip. Everything is small enough to rinse off in the kitchen sink.


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## Zizzle

A bit more progress, it might be time for another brew.


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## Zizzle

Just saw a decent blog series about how to implement the PID algorithm. Might be useful to those that haven't already.

http://brettbeauregard.com/blog/2011/04/im...d-introduction/


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## Yorg

Zizzle said:


> A bit more progress, it might be time for another brew.




What part of the process are you using this solenoid, all water in except sparge? (Sorry if you've covered this previously, but its a long thread....)


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## Zizzle

Just filling the brewing vessel with fresh water at the start.

There is no sparge... BIAB.


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## DJR

Zizzle said:


> Just saw a decent blog series about how to implement the PID algorithm. Might be useful to those that haven't already.
> 
> http://brettbeauregard.com/blog/2011/04/im...d-introduction/



Good read, that one. Cheers.


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## Zizzle

Latest hacking:



That LCD needed 24 I/O pins!

16-bit bus plus control pins for the LCD and 4-wire SPI bus for the touch part.


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## Zizzle

I entered another design competition with the brewbot and upgraded the brains as you saw in the last video.

I made the 10 semifinalists and earned some more prize money.

Then I made the final 3 based on audience feedback at a conference:

http://blogs.freescale.com/2011/11/01/free...sign-challenge/

The video is a bit wanky, but was done based on their guidelines.

Next week I'm down in Austin Tx with it for final judging.

$10k first prize, wish me luck.


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## kirem

bloody hell zizzle, I wish had your skills.

Good luck mate.


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## razz

Knock em dead Matt! 10K will go along way with brewing at home.


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## clarkey7

Zizzle said:


> $10k first prize, wish me luck.


Have fun in Texas and Good Luck Matt. :icon_cheers: 

Colorado next.......I wish I was you sometimes

PB


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## komodo

I love this project. The quiet achiever. 
Good luck!


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## Zizzle

I came away with second.

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/o...AKEIT_CHALLENGE


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## matho

congratulations Zizzle, awesome job :icon_cheers: 

why would the blind want an army knife anyway? 

cheers matho


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## kirem

Great stuff Zizzle.


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## Screwtop

Hey!!!! Well done Matt. Any orders received from Lion Nathan or Fosters yet??

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Ross

As others have said, great work mate :icon_chickcheers: 

cheers Ross


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## kelbygreen

thats good to hear. You may be able to make it bigger now


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## Gar

Nice one Zizzle, it's an amazing project and well deserved :icon_cheers:


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## drtomc

congrats!


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## Tanga

Congrats Zizzle. Awesome work.


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## Zizzle

Settling in after a few months of travels.

Four automated batches back-to-back.

Minimal supervision of the process - but got a bit cocky, left the house on the last one and murphy struck. The knot in the drawstring on the bag we have been using inside the stainless bag prevented the lid from fully closing. This prevented the lower limit switch from being hit.

So the crane kept running for a bit too long - unwound all the cable and then started winding up again. The brewbot was still looking for the lower limit switch to be hit. Wound the lid to the top and broke mounting off.

Should be an easy fix, but some lessons learned.

I have timeout on the crane down operation. But it was too long so didn't prevent the damage. If you have error detection routines these probably don't work if youdon't test them.

The logic for the crane should always look at both limit switches and stop if either is hit.

The lower limit switch is susceptible to this problem. May change to a potentiometer or rotary encoder to detect when the lid stops at the bottom of the travel.


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## matho

good to hear your back into it zizzle


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## Gar

Cool, looking forward to more updates :kooi:


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