# home made candy sugar



## barls

just about to finish a batch of number 5 from here
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=114837
smells much awesome at the moment
i ran out of white sugar so its 700g white and 200g extra dark with 3 teaspoons of dap.
I've been using the liquid from 200g of special b that was steeped and strained and made up to a litre.
only using 500ml of it this time but will knock out a batch of 100% white tomorrow after i get some more sugar.
anyone else has a recipe for this that they use all the time.


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## MastersBrewery

I tried once failed but enjoyed making the mess! Lael has had some success and done several batches. He has gone into some detail on this in one of the threads just can't find it. A pm might get you pointed in the right direction.


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## technobabble66

Hey barls, where'd you get the DAP from? Pivot, bunnings? Or food grade from somewhere? 
Keen to hear how this goes - I'm looking at doing a Leffe clone & a few heavier Belgians that'd needs this.


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## barls

i got mine for here but most home brew places have it
http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/TWUBEPTY-yeasts-and-nutrients/8YEAST%20NUT%2010G


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## Yob

Much interest


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## lael

I was able to get a kilo from country brewer by calling and negotiating a price. It is super cheap in large quantities, but I'm sure they move it slowly, so ended up being around 13/kg from memory.

Another forum member was working in the wine industry and offered to send me some - so ppl interested in larger quantities for, eg, a bulk buy... 
Might start there.


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## Mardoo

There's a couple cracker threads on here on making it. On the phone so can't find them ATM.


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## maggotbrain65

Ive had good results making Candi syrup from here:


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## lael

Here's the thread I posted in not long ago with my notes:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/41338-rochefort-10-westveletern-12/?fromsearch=1


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## barls

so i ended up brewing with mine yesterday.
i made a nice little grain base then added the sugar and here some before and after pics.



the colour of the syrup


colour before adding the syrup


colour after adding


colour of the wort after added


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## technobabble66

Hey barls. Looks great!! So the syrup ended up as that red-ish brown colour? How'd it tast before going into the wort? And how did the wort taste before and after the addition?

What particular process did you go with? 
DAP + calcium hydroxide? 
Straight sugar as the base, or go with brown sugar/golden syrup/muscavado/etc, or try boiled down wort?


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## wynnum1

technobabble66 said:


> Hey barls, where'd you get the DAP from? Pivot, bunnings? Or food grade from somewhere?
> Keen to hear how this goes - I'm looking at doing a Leffe clone & a few heavier Belgians that'd needs this.


The cheap DAP would probably have some heavy metals.


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## barls

from the first post



barls said:


> just about to finish a batch of number 5 from here
> http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=114837
> smells much awesome at the moment
> i ran out of white sugar so its 700g white and 200g extra dark with 3 teaspoons of dap.
> I've been using the liquid from 200g of special b that was steeped and strained and made up to a litre.
> only using 500ml of it this time but will knock out a batch of 100% white tomorrow after i get some more sugar.
> anyone else has a recipe for this that they use all the time.


second batch was the same but with the brown added with the liquid from the special b at the second stage cooking.

the taste was a good dried fruit note with a slight caramel note.
the beer after was awesome I'm looking for ward to fermenting this one out.


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## technobabble66

Yeah, I suspect something like the wyeast yeast nutrient is probably the best option. 
Any better ideas?
It seems like we're really after amino acids or proteins to make this candi syrup. 
The yeast nutrient is ok for this but surely there should be better or purer form of oligopeptides?


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## barls

i used dap. it smells horrible as i breaks down but gives such a nice flavour although the second cook makes a huge difference,


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## technobabble66

Been doing a bit more reading on this over the last couple of weeks.

So barls, did you go with using any lime, etc to alkalise the syrup as you were heating it? (as well as using DAP, of course)

From the reading i've covered, the way to go seems to be like that described in Ryan Brews (as per the link in maggot brain's post above (#8)), or in a link in the thread Lael mentions in his post above (#9)
i.e.: using something to alkalise the mix as you start to heat it, like slaked lime (calcium hydroxide).

I'm undecided as to what is the better technique.
Using DAP/yeast nutrient makes sense & seems to fit the chemistry the best.
Alkalising this mix also seems to make sense & best fit the chemistry - Maillard reactions occur best under alkaline conditions, and i'm not sure if the DAP/Yeast nutrient would be enough to raise the pH sufficiently.
The real question in my mind is whether you do an initial step using acid, before adding the DAP/Nutrient + Alkalising agent. The point of this is to invert the sugar - ie: split the sucrose/maltose into glucose & fructose, or at least some of it. This also seems to make the best sense in terms of the chemistry - you need reducing sugars (i.e.: glucose/fructose) to participate in the Maillard reactions. Heat by itself will do a bit of this, but an acid greatly improves the rate/yield. What convinced me to do this step is that it's reported from a few sources that the Belgians use Hydrochloric acid (plus a base/alkaliser, plus amino acid or DAP/Yeast Nutrient) in their process.
Link is here of one of the sources, and the entry is near the bottom. The important bit is:
"Hi Dennis! Great work here. Reminds me of what I went thru in 2004. Finally I went to Belgium and learned all there is to know(mostly) about Candi Sugar. Anyway, I think I can add a few things. 1- Candi Sugar starts with refined white sugar. Cane or Beet is used depending on current prices. 2- Sugar and water are heated with HCL to invert. Then a base is added and continued heating. Then the secret amino is added. When the solution is at the desired flavor and color it is poured into large metal containers and metal plates are lowered into the syrup. During cooling, rock sugar is formed on the plates. After the rock sugar plates are removed, the leftover syrup is mixed with invert syrup and sold as candi syrup. 3- The total percentage of caramelized syrup present in the candi syrup is aprox 4%. This accounts for high fermentability of the candi syrup and nice pleasing flavor. The base syrup is not so."
Interesting stuff.
(I've read through Lael's links, and i'm not sure which process he follows exactly, by the way.)

So i'm inclined to think the best process (amounts yet to be determined) is:
1) Mix sugar + water + acid. (sugar would probably be at least partly dark/muscavado, etc)
2) Heat for 30mins or so
3) Carefully add enough base/lime/lye to neutralise the acid and raise the pH to a high enough level. Start heating.
4) Add DAP/Nutrient.
5) Heat to chosen temp (e.g.: 280 or 290°C) and basically follow the regime in barls's OP


Thoughts??
Or is everyone already doing this and i'm just a bit slow? :unsure:

Another question is whether i could bypass the acid/inverting step by using either Lyle's Golden syrup or Glucose syrup as all or part of the sugar component. Again, thoughts?
Oh, and one last one, could egg white/albumin be used as the source of amino acids - it's mainly just protein, and should provide ample amino acids for the required Maillard reactions. The big issue here is whether the resulting Maillard compounds taste good or terrible.


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## Batz

I've tried a few times and had a little success. Now I just buy it, I don't think it's really expensive compared with turning out good beer.


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## technobabble66

Furry muff.
However, I guess i like a challenge 

And i can't help but try to achieve a bargain - even if it costs me twice as much to do it 

Edit: and, Batz, which failed methods did you use? just acid and heat?


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## Batz

technobabble66 said:


> Edit: and, Batz, which failed methods did you use? just acid and heat?


Perhaps, can't remember now. Lost interest, could be because I don't use big mobs of it. I think it's great making your own, I just can't be f$uck^d really.


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## barls

I've almost got my yeast ready to ferment the batches.


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## lael

Hey techno,

I do 3x290F with tsp of dap each time once you hit maillard temps. From memory around 240F. Drop water in to cool after sitting at 290F for a few mins. Invert with lemon juice to start by maintaining inverting temp for 15mins before going further. It makes the difference between sugar that crystallises and sugar that stays fluid. 

My fave so far is a blend of organic raw and white and palm sugars at vari5ous timings


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## technobabble66

Hey lael, thanks for replying with that description! 
Have you tried that process using an additional lime/base/etc (~ when you add the DAP) to alkalise the mix?
If so/not, why (/not)?

Palm sugar, hey? Did you ever try date powder/sugar? (I suspect the date is not so good if the Belgians don't use it). Have you tried pure brown or Demerara or muscavado?


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## barls

i cheated a little bit with the special b wort i added.
I've got some date sugar for next time.
i didn't add anything after i did all the reading where dap breaks down in to a base and also supplies the amino acid proteins.


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## lael

How did the special b wort one turn out Barls?

I made some date sugar after reading about it after I made the batches - haven't used it yet though and it has turned into a lump of slightly wet rock. Ziplocks aren't thick enough. I should have vac sealed it.

The reading I did said the same thing - dap breaks down into all the precursors you need. I'm not sure that the extra dap is needed. Try a batch with and without it and see what you think. The lemon is noticeable in the flavour - not lemony but a slight fresh tang - so I would be reluctant to add more and more of it. 

I wanted muscavado or turbinado - the difference is they are made direct from the cane and not refined and then have molasses added back to them like 'raw' sugar and apparently even brown sugar is like that. But it was really hard to locate when I was doing it. It has since become more available.

I found the key for a dark candi was the triple heat and making sure you don't go above 295 - it gets acrid real fast above there. And do a final step up to 240 to get a nice thick syrup that will stay liquid (if inverted properly). 

I thought white sugar gave more pronounced vanilla / red wine flavours in the mid conversion ranges.

Organic raw gave amazing choc and rummy and plum flavours.

Its slightly messy and time consuming to do - but fun. You do need to taste as you go - the range of flavours the syrup goes through is incredible.


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## barls

it was really tasty, pretty dark as you can see by the pics. lots of dark fruit notes.


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## Bribie G

wynnum1 said:


> The cheap DAP would probably have some heavy metals.


Please explain. You seem to be living in fear of heavy metals in lawn fertiliser, glucose syrup, erm.. everything h34r: h34r: h34r:

I'm getting into Candi Syrup myself (bought 500 ml from HBHB to try it) so would appreciate the exact mechanism as to heavy metals that would likely turn me glowing green.


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## Mardoo

technobabble66 said:


> Did you ever try date powder/sugar? (I suspect the date is not so good if the Belgians don't use it). Have you tried pure brown or Demerara or muscavado?


I know that candisyrup.com uses date sugar in their D-180.


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## technobabble66

@ barls and lael, thanks v much for the further info!
I'd def noticed your use of special b, barls, and was also v keen to hear how it went. I'd considered using either Amber or pale/med Crystal. Didn't even consider going the whole hog with spec b!
Yeah, the DAP is def an alkalising agent, however I'm not sure if it'd be strong enough to sufficiently raise the pH by itself. So I thought we'd need to add another alkalising agent, like sodium/calcium/potassium hydroxide as well as the DAP. 

So is it fair to say no one on AHB has tried the process I outlined above: use acid to invert, then use DAP *plus* Sodium/calcium hydroxide etc ??

Those results from different sugars sound v interesting. And tasty! :lol:

Thanks mardoo - didn't know candisyrup use date sugar. Good to know!

And yes, it definitely sounds like I need to try a few different techniques and determine which is best for me!

EDIT: Fwiw, from Wikipedia's entry on DAP:
"The average pH in solution is 7.5–8"
In water I assume, so might be different in this syrup solution.


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## technobabble66

Quick shopping expedition:





Gotta luv local Asian/Arabic grocers!!
Lots of experimenting on the horizon :lol:
.... Just gotta get some more DAP now...


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## Adr_0

Try some online body building supplies for specific amino acids, eg alanine. 

I did a clear syrup with a touch of citric and alanine, in the oven for about 30min at 90-95°C. I did this because it's simple, economic and has good flavour. 

I wouldn't dare try darks though...


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## barls

one thing i found was add the second sugar at the end of the first cool down as it got a bit acrid in the first attempt. the second attempt was not as bitter.


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## technobabble66

Bombs Away!!

Started the first trial run. Probably will only have time for the first boring bit - inverting the sugar.

0.45kg Sucrose
1 cup water
1/2 tsp citric acid
Bring to a light boil. boil for 30mins.

Maybe for tonight, the next step is adding
1/2 tsp DAP
1/2 tsp Lye
Raise to funky temps - aiming for ~285°C for a bit.


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## technobabble66

The start

Then after 30mins


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## technobabble66

Quick update. 
The first inversion step went well, though I probably kept it going for a few too many minutes after my 30mins was up. It firmed up to a stiff "liquid" by the next day with maybe a bit too much colour. 



So last night I did the 2nd step, adding 
1/2 tsp Lye (potassium and sodium carbonate mix) and 
1/2 tsp DAP, plus 
~1/4 cup water. 
Then heating to 130*c

Took about 20-30mins to achieve the target temp. 
This is half way. Love that red hue!



Took it off the heat when it hit 130*c, let it cool a bit, then thought what the hell and added another 1/2 tsp each of DAP and Lye water then heated it back up to 125*c. 
Allowed it to cool to ~100*c, then poured it out onto a piece of foil on a plate



Wasn't sure whether it'd worked or not so I dissolved a bit in water then a little with beer. In water it tasted like hint of toffee water. In beer it tasted like a hint of rich caramel flavour. 
Seemed positive. 
However, I tested the pH of some in water and discovered it was ~5.5 pH. This made me wonder if I'd not alkalized sufficiently. 
Long story short I did several tests of differing amounts of citric acid to lye, to either neutralize of reach alkalinity (~pH9), and discovered I need 3 times the amount of lye. Namely 1.5 tsp lye to the original 1/2 tsp citric acid to reach a pH of 9.2. 

So basically I'll have another crack at it over the next night or 2 with more Lye and see if I get a noticeably different richer result.


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## technobabble66

I maybe should add the reason for concern with the pH is that, as per some of the previous posters, the Maillard reactions are suppressed in acidic conditions and are enhanced in alkaline conditions. 
So if my candi syrup is producing pH5.5 when dissolved, I'm assuming it remained acidic during the caramelization step and subsequently just carbonized, ie: burned, rather than produced the Maillard products that I was aiming for. 

Happy to be corrected on this if anyone knows better, but it seems a reasonable assumption to me.


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## technobabble66

Once more into the breach. 
Starting with 500g sugar, 50:50 white and dark (ie: not raw or brown). 
Just starting the inversion:


It already looks and tastes good without doing anything! Can't wait to see the results of the 2 candying steps [emoji6]


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## barls

looks good. i found the candying stages really concentrate the flavours.
my next one will be 600g white. 300 extra dark and 100 palm


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## AJS2154

I had a crack at making some candi syrup this afternoon and did not realise there was an ongoing discussion on AHB. If I had known that I would have taken some photos. My apologies.

I made 950g of cane sugar and 1 cup water and about 1/4 teaspoon citric acid.

I approached it with some caution as I didn't really know how fast the mixture would heat up and didnt want to burn it. On my first round the sugar changed to a light golden colour. I added water and cooled it. It smelled like granny smith apples. I was unhappy with something that smelled like that so decided to have another go. I reheated it and added some more citric acid. This time it went to a beautiful ruby red colour. I then allowed it to cool a little and just held it at a constant temp for maybe 15 minutes. It gradually became dark and I stopped it.

My mix tastes like golden syrup initially, but then after a while it develops a very pleasant sort of a slight roasty flavour. Very nice. 

I got started beacuse I want to add candi syrup to some of the recipes contained in the new Bronzed Brews book. Looking forward to messing around until I create some chocolate and coffee flavours.

I will more carefully document my processes in the future. Thanks for your efforts to date, great reads.

All the best, Anthony


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## technobabble66

@barls - yeah, i've got all sorts of sugary stuff to play with - palm, date, etc. Keen to get experimenting. I just need a Belgian Red Strong Ale recipe now!

@AJS2154 - are you using an alkalising agent (like Sodium Hydroxide/carbonate) and an amino acid source (like DAP)?

PS: Just learned boil overs can very easily occur as it's coming to the boil - just like wort! :unsure:


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## technobabble66

After the above mentioned boil-over, i had lost 50-100ml.
So i added ~1/6 tsp DAP, then tested the pH and discovered the syrup was ~pH5.5.
Added increments of Lye water to hit pH9+, totalling another ~2 tsp of Lye. This all meant i'd added several times the previously indicated amount of alkalising agent (NB: this could be as my Lye is more dilute than i expected).
Just thought it might be worth mentioning, to indicate that perhaps the pH of the syrup needs to be tested prior to heating for the caramelisation step to ensure we get the Maillard reactions, and not carbonisation, occurring.

Anyway, i continued through the process to hit ~135°C. Let the temp drop a bit, mixed in another 1/4 cup of water, then reheated to 135°C again. Currently letting it cool down. 
Unfortunately, it seems to have a slightly DAP/ammonia smell and taste to it. Not sure if this is right, or if it indicates i added too much DAP or Lye. I might try another batch soon, using less DAP and using however much Lye is required to hit pH9, then making sure no over-boils occur. FWIW, it seemed like as it boiled, it was gradually boiling off the ammonia (& DAP); or rather, it was gradually converting to whatever in the syrup. The amount of DAP i added should be more to suit the "Dark Amber" version of Candi syrup, which is achieved at ~143°C, so i may've simply fallen short of this and really just needed to hit a higher temp to "consume" the DAP/ammonia.

FWIW, the recipe used today was:
250g White sugar
250g Dark sugar
1 cup water
1/2 tsp citric acid
Heated to boil for 30mins, then allowed to cool (had to go to dinner)
1 tsp DAP
1/2 cup water
1 3/4 tsp Lye Water
(boil over)
2 tsp Lye water
1/6 tsp DAP
Heated to 135°C, then taken off heat
Slowly added 1/4 cup water
Heated back to 135°C, then allowed to cool
------

So next time, i'll go 3/4 tsp DAP & try to be more precise with the Lye addition to hit ~pH9. See if that alters the smell/taste i'm detecting.
FWIW, this version in which i ensured the syrup was alkaline during the caramelising step didn't seem to have the burnt tones of the previous batch.

Also, fwiw, after everything was completed i dissolved a little syrup into water to test the pH, and it came up as roughly pH5.5. So no worry with alkalising any wort/beer it's added to !
It does make me wonder though how long it stays alkaline after i've added all this lye. In which case, am i wasting my time with trying to hit pH9 or do i need to add incremental amounts of lye, etc??

While we're speculating: I'm also not sure about using Dark sugar. I'm sure it's great for certain results, but i'm not sure if i'm a fan of the molassesy flavours it brings. I'm after caramel and fruity plum flavours. I'm not sure Dark sugar or molasses starting flavours will get me this in a beer. TBH, given i've not fermented any of this yet, i'm just trying to guess really! I think the Dark sugar would be great in a Dark Strong to get the rummy flavours, but maybe not what i'm aiming for.


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## technobabble66

Ok. Another day, another batch of sweet syrupy goodness.
The last batch definitely smells of DAP - so maybe you *can* add too much DAP after all, in spite of what i think one or 2 advise about it not mattering if you add a little too much or too little.
------------------------------

So the batch i did today (Batch #3) was similar to #2, but with less DAP, more restrained use of just enough Lye to hit pH9, a lower target temperature (~125°C), and all white sugar.
I went with all white sugar to simplify the flavour elements/variables, but also because in making certain desserts, i've found that using darker sugars adds a strong rum & molasses flavour which can actually detract from a classic caramel flavour (and i'd guess some if not most of the fruit flavours as being derived from this "line" of flavour, rather than the molasses flavour). Time will eventually prove this to be right or wrong, but it'll simplify things for the time being.

*Batch #3*
500g White sugar
1 cup water
1/2 tsp citric acid
heat to incipient boil.
Boil for 30mins (and tried to keep it ~114-5°C once this was hit ~23min mark, by taking it off & onto the heat).
Allowed to cool below 100°C

2 tsp Lye hit pH9.1 (1 3/4 hit pH8.8 - decided this was a little low).
Heated to 115°C
Added 3/4 tsp DAP.
Heated to 125°C (took ~10-15mins)
Added 1 tbsp water, dropped temp to ~120-122°C.
Heated back up to 125°C. (takes ~3-5mins)
Repeated this 6 times.
Added the 7th time then switched heat off immediately to ensure liquidity in syrup.

Much better result!! Strong caramel and mild toffee flavour, slight citrusy element(?). No sign of DAP/ammonia. No significant "burnt sugar" element.
Finished with ~500g syrup.

Notes:
As soon as the Lye water was added, the syrup went several shades darker. From a very pale straw yellow (after the inversion step) to a deep yellow/amber after i'd stirred in the 2 tbsp of Lye water. This probably affected the colour development significantly from here on.
The colours at the different temperature stages were much darker than others: say, Snickasaurus's post. e.g.: my 120-125°C stages looked like his 280-290°F (~137-143°C) stages. Note, Snickasaurus doesn't use an alkalising agent in his process.
Subsequently, i decided to cap my temp at ~125°C. This seemed to be quite dark red, going on dark brown; and i had doubts the darker colours would achieve the flavours i wanted (deep caramel, plum, raisin, etc).
Very happy with initially how this seemed to turn out. Could be perfect for the Belgian Strong Red Ale - caramel & dried fruit.

Not sure if i'm missing some fantastic flavour development by not going to 135-140°C, but i'm inclined to go with what one or 2 people mentioned: that at the higher temps you need to go by "feel" a bit more as the precision can vary too much between individuals' efforts. This "felt" like it was targeting what i wanted. I'l maybe try a higher temp version later.

Happy to advised otherwise, if anyone else has some input!!


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## AJS2154

Hi techno,

A couple of things:

1) I have 2 wonderful beer making books, these being "Brewing Classic Styles" by Zainasheff and "Modern Homebrew Recipes" by Gordon Strong. Both books have recipes for Flanders Red Ale (which is a sour and fermented with lactobacillis rather than saccharomyces....forgive me if you know that!). I would be happy to share the recipes if you do not have them.

2) The real point of my post. I read in your posts that you have used lye water in candi syrup production. I also understand that some commercial operations use lye water (NaOH) in their manufacture too. Sodium hydroxide is bloody dangerous stuff if it is ingested in threshold quanities. How do you ensure that your process chemically binds all free OH ions hence you are not creating you own personal saponification reaction? If your pH remains high after the candi syrup is made, I would be worried about what I am eating / drinking. 

Not a criticism, just looking to understand what is going on here.

Regards, Anthony


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## technobabble66

Hey Anthony,

1) I did know that about Flanders Reds - i've had a couple of excellent ones at Vic Case Swaps :lol: . But always good to put info out there, for me or others reading it  I'm always keen to accrue new recipes. I'm a long way off trying my hand at a Flanders Red, but some of the recipes i've seen look like they might work out to be good Belgian Red Ales also (is that what you meant?).

2) The finished syrup tested to be pH5.5. I've assumed that this means the OH ions have all been consumed (pretty certain on this one actually). I'd agree the OH ions are not to be messed with - highly dangerous, especially if in a hot sticky liquid form! It was the main consolation in finishing with an acidic syrup - while it made me wonder _when_ it acidified & what was happening to my ideal Maillard conditions, at least it meant the Lye had been consumed. For the record, I believe the DAP decomposes at high temps to form an acid, so I'm assuming this is what caused the syrup to end up in an acidic state.
From Lael's notes:
"As DAP breaks down around ~270F it separates into two molecules of ammonium and dehydrate-phosphoric acid. So it provides both the nitrogen for browning and the acid for inversion"

FWIW, the Lye water i have is ~75% w/w Potassium carbonate and ~5% Sodium Carbonate, and apparently doesn't have NaOH or KOH in it - go figure, i bought it from an Asian Grocer, however it seems "Lye" is a general name for a variety of common alkaline solutions (e.g.: NaOH, KOH, &, it seems, K2CO3). K2CO3 should have a pH of ~11.6. The stuff i've got seems to fairly consistently hit ~pH 9.2-9.6 when in solution.

No criticism taken, always happy to continue the discussion :icon_cheers:


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## MastersBrewery

Techno, very promising results there. Be interested to see what flavour changes and enhancements you get with some of the different sugar combo's tried earlier, especially the spec b steep (by barls if memory serves me.). It just sounds like something a brewer would do. Thanks for the detailed write up. Been away for a few weeks giving this a run when I get back.


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## technobabble66

2 things:

1) hopefully brewing something like a Strong Belgian Red/Amber Ale tmrw. The recipe is listed in this thread, so any advice from anyone following this thread would be appreciated! (i'm assuming those following this would have an interest in Belgian Ale recipes).

2) Having a go at another batch tonight. Similar to my Batch #3, but done with 950g White sugar + 50g Dark Brown sugar.
Already done the inversion stage. Smells & tastes great. Just goes to show sometimes less in more - it's much better than my previous 50:50 version was (accounting for the excess DAP in that one also). Well, at least less is closer to what i'm hoping for with these current attempts - more rich fruity rather than roast toffee & liquorice/molasses.


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## technobabble66

Posted this in the aforementioned recipe thread. Thought it's worthwhile to post it here:

Fwiw, this is what 2.5g of the syrup in 100mL water looks like. That's roughly the equivalent of 500g in 20L. 
I'm guessing it's between 7-9 SRM, or ~14-18 EBC. 
Checking Belgian Amber Candi Sugar, it comes in as ~19 EBC. 
So I'm assuming that mine's close to a slightly light Amber Syrup. 




Tasted like like honeycomb. Like caramel toffee.


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## technobabble66

OK, so i did a 2nd batch (Batch #4) of this using 5% Dark Brown sugar, and basically the same technique, but getting it up more to 127°C for a few cycles, then 130°C for a few cycles.
Finished with ~1kg of dark syrup.

BUT,
During the latter part of the boil, the strong vinegary acidic vapour coming off it was really noticeable. The pH tested to be really low, ~pH4. And now has a very very strong acidic taste, and also seems quite acrid.
I tested the pH a few time during the 2nd step, after adding 2 tbsp of Lye at room temp. Initial pH was ~10. By the time it started boiling and hit ~108°C, it was already down to pH8, and when it got closer to 115°C, was getting below pH7.

So basically, given the pH is so low both during and after the 2nd boil (caramelisation step) i'm wondering if i've just been making burnt sugar. Or in the case of this Batch#4, very very burnt sugar. There's maybe a hint of the acridity in the Batch#3, similar to the strong acridity in Batch#4. So that might have the same problem.

So the 2 apparent issues are either 1) my thermometers are all wrong, or the appropriate temps for me at ~ sea level are fairly different to Snickasaurus, etc; or 2) the pH needs to be elevated by the time the syrup starts hitting 115-125°C, so much more lye water needs to be added.

I'm going to go with option 2.

I used 2 thermometers during the attempt on Batch#4. Both cheapies, but they've generally held pretty accurate temps between 0-100°C. Both were within 1°C of each other during the caramelisation step of Batch#4. So i'm going to assume the temps were accurate enough. The targeted temps might need to be adjusted for my system - certainly lower temps for me seem to correlate to the visual result snickasaurus achieved. Definitely to be kept in mind.

I double-checked some further/background reading, & the pH should be more like pH9-10 to optimise the Maillard reactions.
All pH readings have been taken at ~ room temperature, however the syrup solution should be getting even more acidic at higher temps. I'm not sure if the ideal of pH9-10 is referring to the pH at the targeted high temp, or if it's that solution when at room temp, but i'd assume the former.
Also, the extreme smell of acidic vapour rising off the pot didn't seem like a good sign. Could be acridity of burning sugar, i s'pose.

So i think it's going to be easiest to use Lye water to adjust the pH up to ~pH9-10. The massive problem with this is guessing what the pH at the high temp is, given i need to cool it down to take a reading. Basically it'll be flying blind. A further complication is that the chemistry should be roughly along the lines of: as the Maillard reactions progress, acids are formed to (appropriately) neutralise the alkalinity, and so the syrup should be slightly acidic by then end of it. Also, glucose/fructose/sucrose become more acidic at higher temps.
So i think i'll just try an experimental batch of getting the pH ~9ish at ~120°C (when measured at room temp), and see what happens - hopefully it'll be down to an acidic/neutral state at the end, but may've done more to prevent what seems to be burnt sugar.

Otherwise, i might be grossly over-complicating what is essentially just adjusting my temps down from those Snickasaurus reported.

Also, FWIW, having fermented a ~100% med crystal micro-batch as a tester a few years ago, i can definitely vouch for the nasty acridity of raw Med Crystal. However, once blended into a beer in small proportions, it can work wonders. Again, i could be massively over-complimikatin' everything.


What does Dark or Amber Candi Syrup taste like raw?? Does it have an acridity to it?


----------



## Markbeer

Raw D2 candi syrup is smooth not acrid. You would quite happily have it on pancakes.


----------



## Markbeer

I have a bit more time so will post my tips. I have had lots of goes at making it.

My tips are-

- Use dextrose, why use sucrose when you need an acid to brek it down. If you use dextrose you skip this step and much more easily get a high ph because you didn't need to add an acid.
- Use ammonia bicarbonate. I have used DAP, yeast nutrient amd ammonia bicarbonate. Ammonia bicarbonate was MUCH better than the other two. You can buy it from Middle Eastern stores. It is a raising agent, but very Alkalai.
- The maillard reactions should happen very quickly. I got chocolate and dark fruit within 10 minutes.

The above may be considered cheating, but from what I read they take hours to make it.


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## technobabble66

Hey Markbeer,
Thanks very much for those comments, both the description of D2 and your tips.

Did you find your attempts to make the candi syrup resulted in something close to D2??

I'd be very tempted to use Dex/Glucose. Certainly if i was to do a 100% white sugar syrup, i think i'd just go the Dex.
My only reservation is that the use of darker sugars _should_ bring extra flavours. I'm keen to nail the basics first so i'm not fussed too much about the darker sugars, but OTOH i'm also keen to try to nail a process that covers both inversion & browning. I've also got a tin of Lyles golden syrup, that's meant to be pure inverted sugar with virtually no colour (i.e.: not too many extra flavours from the inversion process i'd guess) and that definitely tastes different to Dex, so i'd assume the finish product might taste different also - though i'd have no idea if that'd be good or bad.
Also, though the acid from the inversion step needs to be neutralised as part of raising the pH, once neutralised it should be out of the equation. So i wonder if i'm still back at wondering what is going on with the pH at higher temps, and trying to maintain alkaline conditions.

Searching for Ammonia Bicarbonate, or Ammonia carbonate, or Baker's Ammonia, or Harts Horn. Many different names! I've got a few Asian and Middle Eastern grocers near me, so hopefully at least one of them will have it. Any particular reason you found it to be MUCH better? just a basic difference in the flavour.

10mins! Wow. If the Maillard reactions occur so quickly, that may explain what happened with my attempts. I was cooking it for 30-45mins. That could easily explain why i was getting acrid results: i was burning the crap out of it!
OTOH, the pH was below 7 before i even hit 115°C; so the issue of acidic conditions still concerns me.
The chemistry papers i've read are fairly straight forward on this point - Maillard reactions occur at increasing rates as the pH goes up to 10, and are generally confounded if the conditions are acidic. Hence my concern with the pH readings. I think i just need a few more go's at it to build up a better empirical understanding! And stop over-analysing it 

It was a bit frustrating, TBH - the syrup at ~110-115°C was this brilliant to deep red colour. Looked amazing!!
Maybe next time i'll just stop it somewhere close to there and see how that tastes. FWIW, it looked roughly like what Snickasaurus was calling mid-amber syrup.


I'm super keen on cheating if it gets the right quality of results quicker B)


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## Markbeer

If you cant eat it with a spoon its not like D2.

I would say your ph is too low.

my syrup was black yet tasted so nice straight with a spoon. Not the same as D2 though because its a different process and ingredients.

The ammonia bicarb allowed a quick change in colour to dark without acridness. I got the idea from Brew Like a Monk.

It gave me the.chocolaye and dark fruit flavour. 

Even with inverted sucrose and ammonoa bicarb it didnt work the same as dextrose.


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## technobabble66

Quick update on a few things.

I've done some more reading on the technical aspects of the chemistry involved. Let's just say it gets complicated quickly.

The term Maillard reactions is more an umbrella term to cover a large array of reactions that eventually produce the Maillard reaction products (MRPs), which are basically what we're after. These seem to segregate into several main steps, each with their own reaction kinetics/conditions. These are poorly understood, partly because everything happens at once and it's almost impossible for researchers to track what's being formed at what rates. That's all a bit less relevant to us, other than to indicate some of what might be going on, and that there's limited value in theorising too heavily on the chemistry or how to manipulate it.
What i did find interesting were certain aspects of the _initial_ step where the reducing sugars (e.g.: glucose, fructose, etc) react with an amine group (e.g.: amino acid, ammonia). Namely that the amine group can't really react at all below pH 7. However, even though this reaction is optimised more towards pH9-10, it doesn't seem necessary to push the pH that high to get a significant level of reaction. Also, though the temperatures required for the Maillard reaction have commonly been quoted around 125-135°C, the researchers were performing the reactions at ~90°C (& pH7-8).
The reason i've highlighted this is that i've tried the Candi syrup process a few times now, and if i push the temps towards the target of ~125-135°C i seem to get burnt acrid syrup. TBH, i've no idea yet why a few people on this thread seem to have been fine and mine is going nasty. 

BUT, i did a batch yesterday using Ammonia Carbonate (cheers, Markbeer!) and it seems to have produced a reasonable result, even though i'm sure i didn't get anywhere near 125°C, let alone 135°C.
I started with 400g white sugar + 100g LDME in 1 cup of water.
Added 7g citric acid (should've been 3g, i misread/miscalculated the reference i was using as a guide for hitting my desired pH of ~3.5).
Checked pH, =3.2.
Brought up to a low simmer for 15-20mins. Slightest colour in the syrup. Temps went from ~105°C at the start to ~107°C at the end.
Took it off the heat, added the Lye water to hit ph9.2. This took ~3.5 tbsp to do (that's a lot!). Dramatic colour change to a deep red. Large amount of frothing occurred.
Started heating again.
Immediately the pH starts dropping down to pH8.
Also involved a sudden boil over (WHY do i turn away from the syrup every time it gets to this stage?!?).
After a cleanup, i had to leave it cooling for several hours (work got in the way dammit!)

Back to it, started heating.
Checked pH also, and found it to be ~pH7.7-8.
So i added another 2 tsp of Lye. Back up to ~pH9.
Frothing started as soon as the syrup got close to a simmer. Constantly had to take it off the heat to subdue the froth.
Added 1/2 tsp of Ammonia Carbonate. Crazy frothing. 
pH was still dropping, so i tried adding 1/2 tsp Ammonia Carbonate into 1 tsp Lye, then adding that to the syrup. This was to maybe try to ensure the ammonia was in solution at the same time the solution was in the targeted pH9 range.
Over a period of 30mins, i was constantly taking it off the heat for 1-5mins, then putting it back on for 1/2-1min before the froth got to the top of the pot again. 
Temp checks during this indicated it was generally ~108°C.
pH was also steadily dropping gradually back to pH7.5.
Left cool again (bedtime).
A little more heating to froth up a bit and dehydrate it a bit more (too much water still in it). After 2-3 rounds of froth (~5-10mins) i decided it'd be thick enough and have let it cool down. 
Final temp reading was 112°C.
Final pH=7.1
Dissolved in water it has almost no sweetness, but seemed to taste ok.
Adding some sugar to it, it tastes very much like a deep caramel. SWMBO said "just like gula melaka". Which is a little anti-climatic as i was hoping for something much better than gula melaka, but OTOH it's at least along the right lines of being a caramelly sugar. (And SWMBO can be a little overly simple in her descriptions).

SO,
The process seemed to go OK, at least.
I need to obviously refine my citric acid & Lye (and Ammonia) additions.
The temperature doesn't seem to need to go as high as i thought.
Hopefully i can simplify and speed up the process (e.g.: down to the 10mins Markbeer & others mention.
I wonder if the distinct lack of sweetness in the resulting syrup may indicate a very high level of conversion/consumption of the sugars, to (hopefully) be producing a very high level of Maillard products.
Not sure if i'm producing almost all Maillard products and very little Caramelisation products. (whereas i'm assuming i really want some of both for the beer).
Given the rapid dropping of the pH, i'm assuming the pH doesn't need to be at pH9 the whole time. Or if it does it'll require a lot of Lye, and a continuous addition.


----------



## Mardoo

Your next step is to buy a laboratory hotplate  90C and smoooooooth sailin'


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## technobabble66

Yep. I've been dreamin of perfect temp control in that 90-140*C range!!
It'd be awesome to be able to hit, say, 105 and hold it. 
I suspect the gradual change in the proportion of water confounds this anyway


----------



## lael

You can control the temperature by adding a few tsp of water when you hit your desired Temp


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## technobabble66

Yeah, doing that, lael. Seems to work quite well, but needs fairly constant monitoring. 
Lazy me would prefer a set & forget method. Or at least one that didn't need constant temperature checks. 
Currently the most minor of my problems, though [emoji6]


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## Markbeer

Is there any reason you don't want to start with dextrose?


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## technobabble66

Stubbornness. 
Matter of principle. I wanted to get the process right so I could use any type of starting sugar. 
Still tossing up whether I'm an idiot and just use dex to get the 2nd step right. That's probably the smarter way to go about it [emoji57]


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## Markbeer

Why don't you use dextrose then you know what you are exactly after?


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## technobabble66

I might be coming around to your line of thinking... Might have a crack today.


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## technobabble66

Hey mark, did you also use another protein or amino acid source, or just relied on the nitrogen from the ammonia?


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## Markbeer

Just the ammonia bicarbonate.


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## technobabble66

Cheers!


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## technobabble66

Alrighty then. Time for the next update.
I appreciate i'm going into EXTREME detail in my posts. Apologies for the gross excess, but i kinda want to put all the info out there as i go so others starting on this "journey" might see what i've done (wrong, mainly :unsure: ) and hopefully avoid much of the faffing i've gone through. I've generally found the lack of info out there on this adjunct that's kinda critical for a few styles of beer to be difficult and frustrating. It's also kinda frustrating the number of confidently presented posts/blogs/webpages that in hindsight turn out to be basically just wrong - the mis-information minefield. So i partly wanted to present my info/understanding and then results as i go, so others can assess for themselves what's going on; rather than just say "do this".
Anyway, that's my excuse for the walls of text :lol:

.....

More reading has occurred.
I'm now guessing the big difference in caramelising (i.e.: ~ burning) temps between Glucose (~160°C), Fructose (~110°C) and Maltose (180°C) could be part of the problem i've had with acridity in some of the previous samples. I'm sure the Belgians work around this somehow through careful temp &/or pH control. However, i'm guessing the low caramelising temp of Fructose might be making it harder for me - namely as soon as i'm pushing the temp over 110°C, once the pH drops down, the fructose component will probably start carbonising significantly.
This also neatly fits in with Markbeer's suggestion to cut out the Inversion step and just use Dextrose - cheers, Markbeer!
Similarly, i came around to the idea of using less Lye to neutralise the acidic pH, thus producing less salt in the syrup. (i.e.: acid + base = salt)

The previous sample using Ammonia Carbonate seemed to turn out ok, maybe a bit more like molasses and much less sweetness than a regular syrup. But basically fine, so i think the Ammonia Carb is a good nitrogen source.

FWIW, i'm still not convinced on the idea that a simple Nitrogen source like AC or DAP is _everything_ that's required in the Maillard reactions, as opposed to regular Amino Acids that have the rest of the (complex) molecule attached to the other side of the Nitrogen (aside from Glycine, of course). I'd be pretty sure the rest of the amino acid would have to have significant effects on the chemistry of flavour compounds.
So i'd be tempted to mix in at least a little DME for future batches, but i'll leave that for later.

Anywho, the last batch i've done seems to have turned out well. I used:
500g Dextrose
1 cup water
Heated to 105°C
1 tsp Lye water (was enough to hit pH9)
1/4 tsp Ammonia Carbonate
Heated to 115°C
Added 1/8 tsp Ammonia Carb
pH was dropping close to 8, so added a 1/4 tsp Lye.
Heated to 120°C, added another 1/4 tsp Lye & 1/8 tsp Ammonia Carb.
Gradually heated up to 130°C, then added 1/4 cup water. Temp dropped to 115°C.
Heated back up to 120°C
Added another 1/4 cup, heated for another few minutes (~117°C), then left to cool.

This was then tested for colour (4g in 100mL is ~equivalent of 1kg in 23L, so i could compare to Belgian syrups in ianh's spreadsheet).
This sample was ~equivalent of a Light Amber Syrup, which coincidently matches SnickasaurusRex's yardstick of 270°F(132°C) producing Light Amber.
For the record, it produced a colour ~14 EBC.

I couldn't help myself, partly because i wanted a slightly darker syrup, and more noticeable caramel flavours (the initial syrup was very mild in caramel flavour).
So i went through 2 cycles of:
Heat cold syrup (slowly) up to 115°C. Add 2 tbsp water (temp drops). Heat (slowly) back up to 115°C. Leave to cool.
Each cycle takes ~5-10mins.
I did this partly in reflection of I believe the Belgian Candi Syrup manufacturers heat the syrup through various cycles over a period of a few days.

FWIW, the syrup darkened slightly (maybe ~16-18 EBC) but produced noticeably better caramel flavours.

This ended up being ~475g of syrup, though it had a little more water left in it to ensure "pourability".

So essentially, the process produced a syrup i'm definitely happy to use, and will continue to tweak this version.

Thanks to Markbeer for the suggestions of Ammonia Carb & Dex :icon_cheers:



The dubbel was pitched last night in anticipation...


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## gap

Have you tested your results against the Belgian Candy Syrups available commercially?


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## technobabble66

Nope. Bit a drive to get any and I'm too much of a cheapskate. 

So obviously there's not much of a comparison going on [emoji57]

I'm working on the basis of knowing what I want to detect in the syrup (ie: caramel, raisins), at least as a starting point. And hoping that translates into the beer (again, caramel and raisins/plums), or finding out how/what does. 

However there's a good chance I'll eventually get to try Belgian Amber and D2, then wonder wtf did a bother for [emoji6]


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## technobabble66

Actually, grain & grape have it at $20 per kg. 
Not too bad, but still way more than I like paying for ingredients. However I'll prolly have to stump up for a kg at some stage to compare. 
It sounds like I'm aiming for something like Amber and/or D1.


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## Markbeer

Tehnobabble66 glad you made something you'll use using my tips.

I might make some soon and post photos. Mine was very very dark.

Remember for those raisin flavours to try some Special B, aromatic and melanoidin malts.
a couple of craft belgian beers made with Spec B only and no syrup to save on money. They tasted pretty good, for them the cost of syrup can be a factor.

A good yeast does make all the difference. But again one of the craft brewers only used T58 and it was quite good.

I do have a couple kg of D2 just sitting there for over a couple of years. Maybe should do a Belgian soon.


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## technobabble66

Use. The. D2. !!

I'm on to the Spec B. I'm curious to see how it'll compare to CaraAroma and Dark Crystal.

The Dubbel recipe i did was:
81.5% Pils, 3.6% Spec B, 1.2% Acidulated.
~800g _Amber-ish_ syrup.
Hall Mitt of 14 IBU at FWH, EKG+Select+HallMitt into the cube for 6 IBU.
Should be ~OG=1.065, FG=1.010, alc=7.6%, 20 IBU, 28 EBC.

Yeast of choice is WLP-550.
[Chosen for being FREE!! 1 year stored in the fridge. Resurrected by the Yeast Forge (TM) stir plate - awesome piece of kit!]
Suggested to be OK but not the typical choice for a Dubbel, so we'll see how it goes.


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## technobabble66

Fantastic,
Apparently no-one can tell the difference between home-made and commercial Candi syrup. Brulosophy says so.

Only 11 out of 27 correctly identified the 2 brews made from the different types of Candi Syrup. (needs 14 to be statistically significant).

Oh, apart from the 9 out of 10 that, after being informed what they were sampling, correctly differentiated the 2.


Interesting to note the brewer could easily tell the difference between the 2 forms as syrup, but struggled to tell the difference in the resulting beers.
Also interesting to see he basically just did the Sugar+DME combo, with Lye added after hitting 143°C(!!).


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## Jack of all biers

Technobabble (and others). Coincidently I made my first invert sugar last week for a stout. Mine was mixture of raw and demera sugar and I used cream of tartar for my acid. Near the end I put in four spoonfuls of molases as I wanted colour and the liquorice flavours for a stout. I used a combo of the methods already posted here. http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12754 and http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert

Anyway, I saw this thread today and remembered that since I made my invert sugar I did a bit of internet searching for different recipes and ways to do it and I saw the below u-tube video that your method of adding a base reminded me of. Not sure if you have seen it already, but I found it a good explaination and he seems to get the desired results by using LDME, distilled water and food grad lye (Calcium Hydroxide). He then raises his to 150C to get it to harden after he pours into silicon trays. Seems similar to what you have been doing, but slightly different (he doesn't use acid at all). Infact he states that one shouldn't use acids at all. Once he adds the lye he takes it up to 135 - 145C. He goes through all the stages of plum, raisin flavours to roasty flavours and makes a black candi syrup that he turns to hard candi. At the end he shows three different ones he made (clear, red and black). Very informative and worth a view.
It's an 18 minute video so make some time and grab some popcorn (or :drinks: )



EDIT - Oh yeah he makes the black (dark) candi in 45 minutes!

2nd EDIT - and his two blog spot that I have read since posting the above. http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/making-belgian-candi-sugar.html and http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/belgian-candi-sugar-ii.html as well as his solutions to problems people found with this original video http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com.au/2015/01/quick-simple-invert-sugar.html, Finally he posts his resultant beer http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/42-belgian-dark-strong.html.


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## Jack of all biers

Ok now I'm getting like Technobabble and getting into it. From the above's second blog post. http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/belgian-candi-sugar-ii.html

_The Step-By-Step:_


Measure out the desired amount of table sugar (beet or cane, they are equivalent). You need approximately 10% more than you want in the end, to cover the losses during preparation
For every kilogram (2.2lbs) of sugar, blend in 1 tablespoon (15ml) of DME.
Dissolve the DME/sugar mix into heated water - 250ml/1cup per kilogram of sugar. Heat gently, avoiding boiling, until the sugar is completely dissolved.
Once the sugar is dissolved, increase the temperature to 125-135C (260-275F) to begin inversion. Hold at this temperature or 30 minutes by adding cold water, 1 tablespoon at a time, to the hot sugar mix and stirring. Try not to over-cool the sugar mix.
After the 30 minute inversion period let the temperature increase to 145C (295F), at which point add your food-grade lye or pickling lime, pre-dissolved in water. Add slowly as to not drop the temperature below 135C (300F). You will require ~20ml dry lime (pickling lime) or lye (food-grade) per kilogram (2.2lbs) sugar.
Lime/lye should be pre-dissolved into a minimal volume water and decanted off of any solids
*WARNING: these solutions are highly caustic, so use eye protection.*

Hold alkalized mixture at 135-145C (300-330F) until the desired colour and flavour formation is complete. If required, additional lye-lime can be added to drive additional flavour formation.
Avoid adding excess lime or lye, as minerally flavours can be created.

Increase temperature to 150C. At this point sugar can be cast into a silicone pan or onto a parchment paper. Alternatively, you can hold at 150-165C/300-330F to produce additional roast flavours.
Cast into a silicone pan or parchment-paper lined pan, let cool, and the brew!

........









This post has received a number of hits from a Dutch homebrewing page. I don't speak Dutch, but I thought it would be worth answering a few points brought up in their thread (as translated by google translate):

The question they raised is why didn't I use diammonium phosphate (DAP) - commonly found in yeast nutrient - for my sugar. In many ways DAP is ideal - it is mildly basic when dissolved (pH 7.8-8.0), and decomposes into ammonium which can then drive the Malliard reactions. It seems like a better option than DME + a strong base. Indeed, the DAP method is one of the more widely used, including in the 'Ryan Brews' blog post I linked to above.

The answer as to why I didn't use DAP is simple - chemistry. DAP provides one substrate for Malliard reactions - ammonium ions. This greatly limits the range of Malliard products that can be produced. DME, in contrast, contains proteins which undergo hydrolysis (breakdown) during the inversion step. Protein hydrolysis will create hundreds, if not thousands, of products that can then participate in malliard reactions - everything from individual amino acids (23 in all), to hydrolysis products of those amino acids, to partial protein degradation products (peptide chains, di-peptides, etc). As with painting, having a larger molecular ' palette' provides you with a more diverse and interesting end-product.

In my trials I did try DAP, using the method outlined in Ryan Brews (i.e. DAP + lye). The process was much faster than the method I outlined here - it took about half the time to develop the desired degree of flavour. But compared to the method I outline here the quality and complexity of the DAP-based candi was less than the DME-based candi. The DME candi had a broader range of flavours - plums, nuts, caramel, coffee and chocolate, while the DAP-based candi was mostly the roast coffee/caramel flavour. Moreover, the DAP had a chemical-ish (ammonia-like) tone to its aroma, while the DME-based candi was pure fruit & roast aromas.

I hope that clarifies things.


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## technobabble66

Yep, agree: Sui generis is probably the best overall site for info on this that I found - great info, well explained & set out. 
It was Sui generis that convinced me to try DME in one of my earlier batches. I still had a variety of other things go wrong but I wondered at the time whether the result was better than it could've been, as a result of the (comparatively) positive impact of the DME. The last batch or 2 were decent/good successes that've given me a bit more confidence that most of the rest of my process is about right, so the plan is to use a tablespoon or so of DME into the Dex next time - try to improve the complexity/range of flavours. As mentioned in an earlier post, I've struggled with the claim by many that a simple -NH2 group is all that's required for the complex flavour results we're after. It doesn't make sense from neither a chemistry nor an historical perspective. 

So I think for the next batch I'll probably stick to Dex, plus a bit of DME, add the lye after it's sat at a high temp (for a little caramelising) for a bit, crank the temp, add a little Ammonia Carbonate for additional reactions, hit target temp, maybe cycle it a few times, and see what happens. Then do the same without any Ammonia carbonate. Then try it with straight sugar. 
The experiments continue!

Thanks v much for going to the effort of transcribing/summarizing it all here. 
It'll make it a truckload easier for other AHBrs to get on top of this and avoid the (huge amount of) misinformation out there.


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## jphowman

I thought I’d add my process, just in case anyone is interested.

I was trying to make invert sugar to brew a recipe adapted from the Toothey’s Oatmeal Stout recipe in Bronzed Brews. I tried the process over at unholy mess, but I didn’t get any darkening of the sugar beyond concentration. I checked the colour of the syrup I had boiled for >2 Hours against a syrup of the same concentration made straight from the sugar, unboiled, and the colour was identical.

So I checked out this thread and a few other websites and put together my own process. I’ve done it twice and in both cases got some good darkening, to about an amber colour without any acrid flavours. 

Process:
For the inversion step add these ingredients to a saucepan and bring to the boil. 
1kg of Raw Sugar
480ml Water
1.3g of Citric Acid

Boil for 10mins. Then neutralise the acid with Calcium Carbonate and add some DAP.
1g of CaCO3
0.5g of DAP

Continue to boil for however long is necessary. Use a solution of Calcium Carbonate, DAP and water to keep the temperature below 115 degrees (ish, I was aiming to stay around 105 but it got hot sometimes)
40ml of water (plus extra when I ran out later on)
2g of CaCO3
2g DAP

Check out the gallery with the images


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## technobabble66

Good to see another attempt at this, franks. Looks like you've had some good success!

FWIW, the colour you've achieved seems fairly light. So it'll be fine for a bit of depth in a stout, or for a lighter Belgian ale; however, the real test, in my experience, is when you try to push it to a much darker colour - that's when i found out whether my process was flawed or not (though i'm still puddling around like a noob myself with this stuff!).

Why the use of CaCO3 instead of the other alkalising options? Not suggesting it's bad, just curious - in fact it may well be better than anything i've used so far 
What temp do you think you were consistently hitting/holding at for most of the "darkening" boil? Or did it vary a fair bit between 105-115°C?



FWIW, my dubbel has come out a rosy red (so nowhere near as dark as i thought!), using 2 of my 500g batches of darkish syrup. Tasting like its waaaay too young (i.e.: its a bit rough!) but shows some signs of promise - some caramelly elements have come through a bit more within just 2 weeks since its carbed up (i.e.: going from 2 to 4 weeks in the bottle). I think they're commonly pretty terrible until they get to 6-12 months, when the mellow and balance properly, so i'm prepared to be patient!


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## technobabble66

For the record, I posted some updated tasting results of my dubbel at 4-5 weeks here:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/index.php?/topic/89987-Belgian-Strong-Red%2C-recipe-critique/page__view__findpost__p__1380507
Tasting pretty darn good already.


----------



## barls

my first batch is bottled now and is in the nsw case swap. made a second one yesterday with raw sugar, dark brown and palm sugar. had a really good colour and flavour looking forward to brewing with it.


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## technobabble66

Just discovered that suigeneris posted an update on his process in March this year:
http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com.au/2016/03/belgian-candi-sugar-part-iii.html

The main bulk is:

"The changes I have made seem to address the issues others (and I) have noted - namely an occasional acrid/burnt character. An issue was also brought up by one commenter which I think is worth addressing here.
_The changes I've made to my method:_

I've greatly reduced the amount of DME used, as the amount of protein in previous batches was excessive. For 1 kg of sugar (2.2 lbs), I am currently using 2.5 ml (~1/2 tsp) of DME. Previously I was using 1 tbs (~15 ml)
I avoid mixing the sugar as much as possible - I mix to dissolve the sugar into water, and I mix when adding the lye, but I do not otherwise mix.
I am much more careful and slow with my temperature changes. Most of the mixing I did previously was to add cold water to cool the sugar if I overshot the desired temperature.
I now usually add corn sugar (fructose) at a rate of 1% volume/mass (i.e. 1 ml corn sugar per 100g sugar). This does not change the flavour of the final candi, but does reduce crystallization. It is easier to then blend the mix into a syrup or cast rocks with the non-crystallized sugar.
These changes have led to a candi which is much closer (to my palate) to commercial candis, one without the unpleasant flavours some of the previous batches had. Others on the thread have mentioned using pressure cookers and other methods with great success. Hopefully, as a collective we will be able to formulate a better method of producing a consistent and flavourful candi sugar for home brewing.



_The "Issue":_

An issue brought up the commenter 'Chino' in the Brulosophy thread was that the 30 minute inversion time that I recommend is insufficient to completely invert the sugar, with individuals over a Reddit working on ways to get improved inversions. I partially agree with what Chino states - given the rate of the reaction and the fact that it is an equilibrium reaction, a 30 minute inversion period without the addition of something to accelerate the process (e.g. acid) will only invert 8-10% of the sugar. Where I disagree with Chino is that I don't think this matters. Mallard products comprise a pretty small portion of the final sugar - assuming 100% of the protein added via the DME is converted to Mallard products, the Mallard products would comprise about 0.07% of the final candi by weight. Although multi-step reactions, the formation of most Mallard products requires only one sugar molecule per amino acid, meaning that you need "only" 0.07% inverted sugar to be able to (in theory) produce the full array of Mallard products. The 8-10% inverted sugar is a huge excess compared to what is required - this does offer an advantage in terms of reaction rates, but its hard to imagine that increasing inversion to 25% (theoretical maximum using heat alone) or 50-75% (theoretical maximum using acid) would offer further improvements."
-----------------------

FWIW, i also noticed he never posted the tasting notes of the Belgian Dark Strong he did in 2013 to test his candy sugar.


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## technobabble66

Which segues into what i've been up to last last 2 days.

Spring is here, so back into candi syrup experiments!!
More reading & thinking/wondering has been done.

I'm currently inclined to believe that:

1) DME is (definitely) a better source of protein/amino's - this is simply because i believe it'll more likely mimic the natural aminos in the beet sugar that the Candi Syrup manufacturers use; cf: ammonium carbonate, DAP, etc (as outlined in an earlier post of mine, as well as suigeneris in his 2013 posts).

2) Both Beet sugar & Cane sugar "should" be ~99.9% sucrose.
So cane sugar "should" be an equivalent source of sucrose for homemade candy syrup - means i don't need to try to source beet sugar (almost impossible here in Melbourne). I'd guess the beet sugar may have some impurities from the beet (i.e.: equivalent to molasses) however, i've read that the molasses from beet sugar processing isn't suitable for human consumption (probably because it precipitates out with calcium carbonate; apparently darker forms of beet sugar is made by adding cane sugar molasses to it!), so i'd guess that the sugar used in candy syrup is probably fairly low in molasses-like impurities. There's also reagent impurities that could be passed into the initial stage of syrup manufacture - e.g.: calcium carbonate, acids, etc. I'm hoping/assuming these would more just affect pH, which i can adjust in other ways.
The selection of beet sugar for candi syrup manufacture may simply be an economic one - based on the easy access to beet sugar the traditional manufacturers would've had in the previous couple of centuries due to it being grown (relatively) locally, compared to cane sugar that had to be imported from the Americas. This would be less relevant now, but may still play enough of a role to maintain the selection of beet sugar for Candi Syrup manufacture. So subsequently, i'm less obsessed with sourcing beet sugar as it's use *may* not relate to any unique flavour impact it has compared to cane sugar.

3) To allow/compensate for various impurities that may be passed from initial beet sugar purification into the syrup manufacture, I believe the addition of a little dark brown sugar (or something like it with a ~high level of molasses contaminant) should suffice. This also importantly adds various minerals that typically act to significantly enhance caramelisation reactions.

4) Cream of Tartar seems like a better acidulant for the inversion, and not much is needed.
CoT is normally used in candy manufacturing apparently, and it adds a slight honey-like flavour to the inverted syrup. Sounded good to me, so i'll go with that from now on. Also, only a tiny amount is needed, so the inversion step shouldn't result in a pH that is too low, and a reasonable amount of inversion should occur. And as stated in the suigeneris post i transcribed above, only a small amount of the reducing sugars (glucose & fructose) are technically needed for the Maillard reactions. 1.5-2.5g per 1kg sugar is supposedly the range used by many manufacturers. I'll go with 1.5g/kg CoT for now.

5) I'm more inclined to believe the candy syrup manufacturers don't push hard for Maillard reactions, and we're over-thinking this. 
i.e.: maybe we're heavily over-engineering this aspect, in trying to manipulate the chemistry to maximise these mallard reactions in the belief that they are super important in producing the flavour compounds we're after in the syrup (NB: "we" might be just me :lol: ).
I'm starting to think that traditional candy processes have generally been fairly simple, and seem to be developed decades/centuries before the chemistry was slightly understood. Also, it seems plausible that the majority of flavours in the syrups could come simply from the complex caramelisation reactions. So basically, i'm taking a step back to focus mainly on the caramelisation process.
This rethink has partly occurred as a result of changes in my brewing philosophy (damn you manticle, et al!) - i.e.: instead of trying to add truckloads of ingredients to specifically achieve a variety of flavours in my beers, i'm starting to appreciate that a minimal number of the right ingredients can still achieve a myriad of flavours, and importantly doesn't "muddy" the waters so you can actually taste them all clearly. A bit like the difference between the more muddied and generic flavour of blended scotch compared to a fine single malt scotch that might have several prominent flavours that evolve on the tongue, even though only one malt (& one barrel-type) was used. Does that make any sense? :huh:


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## technobabble66

So the stuff above has led to the latest batch:
500g white (cane) sugar
50g DME (may be v excessive)
20g Dark Brown sugar

Inversion step:
0.55g Cream of Tartar
200mL water
Brought to boil, simmered for 10mins with lid on to maintain temp by reducing water boil-off (@~109°C).
Turned heat off, and left sit for 5mins.

Caramelisation:
Turned heat back on, rose to 120°C fairly quickly (~1min)
Added some water to drop down to 116°C, held for ~5mins, and gradually rose up to 126°C, where it seemed to sit for a few mins.
Allowed to rise to 135°C, and held for 5-10mins, then added water to drop to 127°C for 10mins.

Then ensued a variety of raising and dropping the temps - all temp adjustments by simply adding some water, generally ~1/4cup each time. One peak hit 145-152°C for ~1min. Most were ~125 to 135°C.

A sharp acidic aroma developed, so after leaving the lid on for a minute, collected some of the condensate to discover it was very sour and acidic, tasting like acetic acid. So the lesson here seems to be NEVER LEAVE THE LID ON. Always try to encourage the vapours to waft away - hopefully this reduces the acids in the syrup itself, similar to allowing DMS to boil off in wort boiling.

Next day (today), repeated a few more peak temp cycles, again, mainly 125, 127 & one to 135°C.

Will continue tonight, so far the syrup seems really good. Maybe a slight burnt element, but not necessarily bad, more like a dark toffee etc.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

technobabble66 said:


> suigeneris posted an update
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I now usually add corn sugar (fructose) at a rate of 1% volume/mass (i.e. 1 ml corn sugar per 100g sugar). This does not change the flavour of the final candi, but does reduce crystallization. It is easier to then blend the mix into a syrup or cast rocks with the non-crystallized sugar.
Click to expand...

Corn sugar is glucose*, not fructose. I think he might mean high fructose corn syrup.

I use about 1/4 glucose in the sugar mix when making golden toffee for a Belgian blond, suppresses crystallisation as desired.

BTW since I'm not looking for the browning you are, I just use lemon juice to accelerate the inversion and to develop a little colour. If I wanted more browning I'd just add a gram of lysine, available from health food shops.


*For reasons I don't understand home brewers insist on calling glucose "dextrose" but never call fructose "levulose".


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

In case you haven't seen this, I thought it might be useful. From Hodge "Chemistry of Browning Reactions in Model Systems" J Ag Food Chem 1953

More here: http://www.scs.illinois.edu/denmark/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Marcus.pdf


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## technobabble66

^^ yep, seen both before (i've done a *lot* of reading!  ) but good to post for others to note.
Thanks for popping it in, plus the link to the explanation of the chemistry involved.

Re: lysine, most reasoning is kinda covered in the previous few posts of mine. But I'll go through the main couple of reasons I haven't gone down that path.
The main reason was because it seemed unlikely the "real", traditional Candi syrup is made using a single amino. The object here is to create something as close to the real Candi, rather than simply replicating some chemical reaction pathways. Similarly, I'm assuming the spectrum of proteins/aminos in whatever the natural source is would create/contribute to a complex array of low molecular and advanced MRPs that produce the equally complex flavour of the Candi syrups. So the assumption is using a single amino would produce only a smaller chunk of that spectrum.
Furthermore, I'd guesstimate that the manufacturers may not even add a specific amino source, so the aminos may come from the small percentage of impurities.
So I'm currently looking at keeping the contribution of aminos to be small and simple (and "natural"). Obviously this means I'm also assuming the vast majority of browning comes from caramelisation/pyrolysis reactions and their downstream products/reactions.

Secondly, it's easy but expensive to get the various forms of lysine supplements. Also, they all seemed to be impure. The powders come with various agents, in particular flavoring and sweetening agents; tablets come with tableting or casing agents. But mainly the price was just very unappealing.

Does that make sense (and seem reasonable)?



EDIT - apparently i hadn't saved that Maillard reactions document to my hard drive. Done that now, so my archive thanks you again for posting!


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## technobabble66

Bugger - forgot a detail in my post#80!

At the caramelisation step, where i initially hit 126°C, i poured in 1/2 tsp of Lye (75% w/v Potassium Carbonate).

So it should read:
"Added some water to drop down to 116°C, held for ~5mins, and gradually rose up to 126°C. Added 1/2 tsp Lye and allowed to simmer ~126°C for a few mins.
The lye addition was to err on the side of covering any trickiness the manufacturers might have going on in their process - it should provide for some extra Maillard reactions, without really adding a large amount that might interfere too heavily with the majority of flavours developed from the caramelisation reactions (in case it's unnecessary)."


If the mods could edit that in, that'd be great!


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

technobabble66 said:


> ^
> 
> Does that make sense (and seem reasonable)?


Yep, entirely reasonable. I agree that in the original the most likely nitrogen source is a bit of remnant molasses, which is high in nitrogen (it's good yeast food). Since you are looking for a dark syrup anyway, have you tried a bit of muscovado sugar? I put muscovado in my dark ale (and on my porridge. Must not get them mixed up). I love the flavour.

I was more suggesting lysine as a sub for DAP. I'm not fond of DAP, though I deal with literally tonnes of it used for yeast nutrient each year.

BTW I think we pay 80c / kilo for food grade DAP.


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## technobabble66

Done the DAP.
Not happy with the result, where i suspect the DAP lends a "chemical" flavour to the resulting syrup. Also, not wanting to push the "natural" too hard, but it just doesn't quite seem "right" that the traditional method would use a raw chemical like DAP.
This is obviously more subjective opinion rather than anything based on fact. The second point probably came into focus after the first point/result.

I'll probably revisit the DAP thing later on after i improve other aspects of the process, but i'm fairly comfortable ATM that DAP is not the way to go.

WRT the sugar options, yeah, in the last 6 months i've bought almost every type of sugar ready to trial, including muscovado.
I must admit, though i like it in certain uses, i find it has a bit of liquorice/aniseed come through that I'm not a fan of for making candy syrup - doesn't seem appropriate.
Having said that, i'll give it a go at some point to see if that opinion os bollocks - i've obviously already over-thought a few things along the road.

FWIW, Date sugar/syrup seems the best way to go, partly as it's listed as an ingredient in D-180 (CSI) and some others of the darker candy syrups. So the plan is to trial a combo of Cane sugar + Date sugar/syrup soon.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

technobabble66 said:


> i find it has a bit of liquorice/aniseed come through that I'm not a fan of for making candy syrup - doesn't seem appropriate.


That's probably what I like about it but you are right, it isn't the correct flavour profile for Belgian candi syrup.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

technobabble66 said:


> So the plan is to trial a combo of Cane sugar + Date sugar/syrup soon.


 That sounds delicious. Let us know how it goes.


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## technobabble66

Next update.
The last batch turned out really well. I'm totally guessing, but it might be the equivalent of Amber or D-45 (largely because its dark, but not semi-black like D-90 & D-180 seem to be). Anyway, tasted great - deep caramel & toffee elements.

FWIW, i also forgot to mention i'd added ~0.3g Bicarb Soda with the first heating of the Caramelisation Step, to neutralise the CoT.
----------------------
The Next Batch
Started this yesterday:

400g White Cane sugar
100g Date Syrup
25g LDME
20g Dark Brown Cane sugar

0.65g Cream of Tartar
3/4 cup water

(Later, 0.35g Bicarb Soda, later again 1/2tsp Lye)

So similar process, for the inversion i got it up to ~115°C and kept it there for ~10-15mins, then turned off the heat and let it sit for 30mins.
Then started heating again, once it hit something like 115°C, added the Bicarb Soda. Continued heating to ~125°C, added the Lye gradually.
Then began the heating cycles - generally holding a min temp of 116°C, but peaking at either 125°C, 135°C and a couple at 145-155°C.

Note i've started relying more on temp at the base of the pot - i.e.: the thermometer is touching the metal of the pot's base. I started doing this as it occurred to me that even though it's a tiny fraction of the syrup, whatever is touching that surface could be a lot hotter than the rest, and that's where the burning will occur (obvious, i know!), so i decided it might be better to take readings there to prevent critical temps being exceeded. Also, i kinda figured even though it's a tiny proportion of the syrup, the way these things permeate the flavour, it may still be significant, Plus, i'll do many cycles over a few days, so lots of tiny fractions may add up to a lot!.
FWIW, it's probably a good thing i've started measuring temp like this, as the Date Syrup may increase the likelihood of charring - certainly this batch is the first where it's a problem. Twice i heated to a high temp, then turned off the heat and let it sit for a few mins before adding the water - so the sustained higher temps might push the caramelisation reactions more, with less risk of the temp jumping too high and scorching the syrup. Unfortunately the opposite seems to be the case. The first time i hit 155°C, and this may simply be too high for the date/cane mix. The second time was only 135°C, which i've since hit safely a few times, so i think that verifies leaving the pot without heat (continuous bubbling seems to help dissipate the syrup before it chars) or water (to quench the temp) at that temp is a No No.
Anyway, a quick transfer to another pot, clean the first one (luckily the char seems to clean of easily once a green scrubby sponge is applied), then transfer back seems to address the problem, and the syrup doesn't seem to have been negatively affected by the slight charring at either stage. Fingers crossed!
Also, FWIW, curiosity got the better of me, so i tasted the char in case it might have some beneficial flavour element for the syrup that i didn't realise i was missing out on (caramel is really just carefully burnt sugar, after all!). Nope, just tasted like ash, so hopefully i'm not removing important flavours.


But on to impact of the Date Syrup.
Whoa. Nelly.
Instant awesomeness!
After the first couple of heating cycles, the difference was pronounced - there's a significant fruity depth to the caramel sweetness. It doesn't stand out in an obvious way, but having done a fair few batches now, it's really noticeable that it achieves an added depth. As i've done more heat cycles, its also noticeable that the "date" flavour dissipated fairly quickly to be replaced by a "fig" element, and now it's more like just a fantastic depth that has a kinda rounded fruitiness.

Date Syrup FTW!!


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## EalingDrop

Hi technobabble,
Thanks for the posts, good to know how it can be done here in Oz considering the difficultly that ingredients are hard to come by. 

Recently bottled (Sep 2016) a Westvleteren 12 clone using the Sui Generis Belgium Candi. I cracked open one last week and felt it lacked the raisins/plum character which I think was let down by the DIY inverted sugar.

Interested in how the Date Syrup 'adjunct' work out. Also are all your syrups in liquid or crystal states?


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## manticle

If you can really work out how to make d2 at home techno, I'll buy you a jeep.

For once, I reckon your continually analytical/slightly overthinking brain bits might pay dividends and should not be discouraged.


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## technobabble66

Ok, minor update.
I actually have some Dark Candi Inc syrup now to compare with: Amber & D2.

On tasting there's a few things worth noting.

First up, i'd be pretty certain the D2 uses some sort of alkalising agent &/or amino source - it has a particular flavour in the background that i was getting while using some of the ammonia sources (e.g. Ammonium Bicarb, Lye) to drive melanoidin formation. It's absent in the Amber, so maybe it's either not driven far enough to produce those flavours, or they simply don't bother trying to drive melanoidin formation and just stick to caramelisation reactions.

Secondly, the Amber and D2 are very smooth caramel flavours, whereas mine has more of a sharper toffee element, which i'm assuming is from me pushing the higher temps too much and getting a slight scorching in the sugars.
My last 2 efforts (one with & one without some date syrup) seem to be somewhere between the Amber & D2 - probably more like Amber with a little more oomph, though the sharper "scorch" element might be influencing that assessment somewhat.
Obviously the intention is to eliminate that sharper scorched flavour - it's not unpleasant and might work well in the right beers, but i'm trying to replicate what the Belgians do, and they definitely don't have this element in the Amber & D2.

FWIW, the Date syrup in my last effort seems to round out the fruitier flavour a bit, kinda similar to flavour profile of the D2 (i think). So i'd probably stick with some Date syrup if i was looking to replicate the D2, maybe even increasing the amount to ~30-40%.

@ED, all mine are syrups. It just seemed the easiest way to go.

@Manticle, I'll take a red one, thanks.  :lol: I've got a sneaking suspicion the true process requires high pressure heating, to achieve stable high temps without the issue of gradual boil-off slowly ramping up the temp. I suspect i need to do something like "hold x temp for 1 hr" etc, where x=115°C and so on. 115°C is tricky but doable. It starts getting more hard to hold stable for long periods of time once it goes over 120°C.


(& thanks to Clever Brewing for supplying the Dark Candi syrups - obviously critically important to finally have some real ones to compare against  )


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