# Noob Mead Makers Wanted - Apply Within



## chappo1970

Ok guys there is obviously some interest brewing on the subject of Mead and in making a tipple or two. Because I think there are some of us that are very new to the Mead game I thought we could all use this thread as a bit of a meet, greet, sharing experiences, share recipes, others might be interested in and so on thread for Noobs to Mead brewing. So I propose a little AHB group effort and some collective knowledge to brew us some tasty Mead.

I plan to make a brew in the next week or two probably something simple to start and then who knows?

Anyway if you want to be involved and or contribute in anyway then sign on here. ALL WELCOME!


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## brettprevans

Chappo beat me to it!!

All things mead, meth, or metheglin. all the same stuff. fermented honey!

_"... Valhall's blushing maids round-proffer the Mead-Horns, rich with foam of gold, . . ." 
Frithiof's Saga _

I suggest that other true styles have a seperate thread also: such as braggot (mead made with malt and honey). But happy to have all input from these styles in here also.

GotMead Website
There's some discussion on mead in this thread
Here's the results page from a search of the term 'mead' as at 26 Feb 2009.
Recipe from a QLD? Braggot Brewday
Joe mattioli"s foolproof ancient orange, clove and cinnamon mead
Info on the 1st Vic Honey Bulkbuy (as far as I know)


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## chappo1970

Cheers CM2

_"... Valhall's blushing maids round-proffer the Mead-Horns, rich with foam of gold, . . ." 
Frithiof's Saga _ Bwahahahaha! :lol: F'in brilliant!


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## Ronin

Chappo said:


> Ok guys there is obviously some interest brewing on the subject of Mead and in making a tipple or two. Because I think there are some of us that are very new to the Mead game I thought we could all use this thread as a bit of a meet, greet, sharing experiences, share recipes other might be interested in and so on thread for Noobs to Mead brewing. So I propose a little AHB group effort and some collective knowledge to brew us some tasty Mead.
> 
> I plan to make a brew in the next week or two probably something simple to start and then who knows?
> 
> Anyway if you want to be involved and or contribute in anyway then sign on here. ALL WELCOME!



I've emailed Grain and Grape about ordering in the Wyeast mead yeasts. I'll let people know their reply if you're interested.

Chappo I'm sure you won't have a problem with yeasts being in Queensland, CB seems to stock them all the time. I guess I can get them from there as a last resort, but I'm always a bit iffy about the long postage.

I know you can do it with ale yeasts, I've thought maybe 1272 would be fine. But if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it properly.

James


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## chappo1970

Ronin said:


> Chappo I'm sure you won't have a problem with yeasts being in Queensland, CB seems to stock them all the time. I guess I can get them from there as a last resort, but I'm always a bit iffy about the long postage.
> 
> I know you can do it with ale yeasts, I've thought maybe 1272 would be fine. But if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it properly.
> 
> James



Yep CB's can sort me out with yeast I am sure. h34r: The problem is I will go in there for yeast and come out with an 80lt kettle (they are evil I tells ya, EVIL!)

I agree with the 1272 BTW. I was just reading up on that when your post popped up. Anyone had experience with 1272 and mead?


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## fraser_john

Ronin said:


> but I'm always a bit iffy about the long postage.



James,

I am out at Drysdale and have never had a dud yeast from Ross yet! I'll probably be getting the dry-mead from hime once we figure out the bulk buy.

John


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## brettprevans

ok here's My first recipe idea for a mead. taking suggestions.

*Melanie Mead*
4L honey diluted to 17L
3L water for steeping of grain
300g choc grain
50g black patent.
200g Melanoidin malt
5 cinanmon quills in the boil.
10 cloves in the boil.


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## Ronin

fraser_john said:


> James,
> 
> I am out at Drysdale and have never had a dud yeast from Ross yet! I'll probably be getting the dry-mead from hime once we figure out the bulk buy.
> 
> John



I've considered getting yeast from Ross, Grain and Grape a bit too far and being open only sat morning is a pain sometimes. Good to know its not a problem from queensland,

Thanks,

James


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## chappo1970

CM2 I loved the sound of that recipe yesterday. :icon_drool2: 

:lol: My recipe is well at..... 5kg of honey?????

I've seen to much and as usual going in 10 different directions...


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## Wolfy

I have my first mead already in the fridge, was a very simple 'foolproof' recipe.
However, after listing to Ken Schramm on Jamil's show, future attempts should actually be much easier and hopefully better.
Ken's book looks like a very useful reference, since while I've found many Mead/Melomel recipes online there is not too much around on the theory/process/practice/reason behind it all.

In general (at least until I get everything right) I'll be making mead in 5l glass carboys, but if they only take 21-28 days to ferment, the process will be very different to the 3-12 months that I'd been told about before. Smaller more frequent batches should allow me to experiment more and also provide for a consistent stock for aging, since it seems they should improve well with age.

The question I have for now, is what/where for yeast nutrient, I notice that while both G&G and Craftbrewer have some listed, I'm not sure they match what is mentioned on the above MP3-show.


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## chappo1970

Wolfy said:


> ...while I've found many Mead/Melomel recipes online there is not too much around on the theory/process/practice/reason behind it all.



Exactly what I found too, Hence this thread. Hopefully we will have others contribute that can shead some better light.



Wolfy said:


> In general (at least until I get everything right) I'll be making mead in 5l glass carboys, but if they only take 21-28 days to ferment, the process will be very different to the 3-12 months that I'd been told about before. Smaller more frequent batches should allow me to experiment more and also provide for a consistent stock for aging, since it seems they should improve well with age.
> 
> The question I have for now, is what/where for yeast nutrient, I notice that while both G&G and Craftbrewer have some listed, I'm not sure they match what is mentioned on the above MP3-show.


Maybe ask them direct? I will probably see Ross tonight at the BABBS meeting, might ask him then?


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## Bribie G

As mentioned on another thread I'm doing a braggot on Wednesday with around 3kg of honey and 2.2 kg Maris Otter / Carared for a 24 L batch.
I wonder if this amount of malt would provide enough nutrients for the yeast (US - 05 or Nottingham, I have both) or should I pop in some yeast nutrient as well?


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## Ronin

I found this thread interesting

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=9714

Sounds like Airgead did some experimenting with mead a few years ago. I'd be interested in how they turned out, maybe he'll let us know?


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## newguy

Wolfy said:


> The question I have for now, is what/where for yeast nutrient, I notice that while both G&G and Craftbrewer have some listed, I'm not sure they match what is mentioned on the above MP3-show.



Pretty much all homebrewers I'm aware of use yeast nutrient and yeast energiser. Yeast nutrient basically contains the building blocks of yeast cells. It's a beige powder. Yeast energiser is usually the name given to diammonium phosphate (DAP) around here. It's a white substance that looks like salt and tends to form loose clumps, kind of like salt that's slightly damp.

Add both substances in a 80/20 to 50/50 mix, nutrient to energiser. Kurt Stock, the AHA's meadmaker of the year (I think he earned that title more than once actually) has recommended that you add your nutrients a little at a time. His recommendation was to split the total that you'd normally add to the must before pitching into 8 equal amounts. The first gets added to the must, with the next addition 12 hours later, and the next another 12 hours later, and so on until you've added all the nutrients. I did this with my first mead, which was done in about 3 months. The one I have on the go now (only my 2nd) had all the nutrients added to the must only as I made it a day before I left on vacation for a week. That was about 2 months ago and it's pretty much done. It isn't crystal clear yet, but it is clearing fast.


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## brendo

what is the typical ratio for honey to water for making a mead?

I am interested in making a dry mead, which will probably get carbonated at some stage - swmbo loves dry champagne, so I reckon I would be the ants pants if I could make her some home made 'bubbles'.

Brendo


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## Ronin

newguy said:


> The one I have on the go now (only my 2nd) had all the nutrients added to the must only as I made it a day before I left on vacation for a week. That was about 2 months ago and it's pretty much done. It isn't crystal clear yet, but it is clearing fast.



So does that mean you don't think it's necessary to add the nutrient incrementally, or is it more a flavour thing than a fermentation rate?


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## newguy

brendo said:


> what is the typical ratio for honey to water for making a mead?
> 
> I am interested in making a dry mead, which will probably get carbonated at some stage - swmbo loves dry champagne, so I reckon I would be the ants pants if I could make her some home made 'bubbles'.



I've had meads that were about 6% abv all the way up to approx 15%. It's up to you how much you dilute the honey. If you're after a dry mead, use champagne yeast or some other high alcohol tolerant variety.

The way I make mine is to start by putting the pail of honey in a sink full of hot water to loosen it (my honey comes solid, not runny). Once you can get the lump of honey to turn inside the pail, plop it into a pot. Then fill the pail with hot water, swirl, and dump into the pot. Repeat until no more honey sticks to the pail. Heat the mixture to dissolve the honey, then either add cold water to hit whatever volume you want to end up with or hot water & continue heating to pasteurisation temps. Then it's as simple as dump into fermenter & pitch yeast. It will ferment faster if you add a lot of yeast nutrient/energiser (about 5 tsp total mixture for 20l) and oxygenate as well.


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## brendo

newguy said:


> I've had meads that were about 6% abv all the way up to approx 15%. It's up to you how much you dilute the honey. If you're after a dry mead, use champagne yeast or some other high alcohol tolerant variety.
> 
> The way I make mine is to start by putting the pail of honey in a sink full of hot water to loosen it (my honey comes solid, not runny). Once you can get the lump of honey to turn inside the pail, plop it into a pot. Then fill the pail with hot water, swirl, and dump into the pot. Repeat until no more honey sticks to the pail. Heat the mixture to dissolve the honey, then either add cold water to hit whatever volume you want to end up with or hot water & continue heating to pasteurisation temps. Then it's as simple as dump into fermenter & pitch yeast. It will ferment faster if you add a lot of yeast nutrient/energiser (about 5 tsp total mixture for 20l) and oxygenate as well.



Thanks newguy...


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## brettprevans

re aeration. for all you Vic brewers, check here. Im getting one of these mainly for my mead b/c or the massive aeration is needs. I'll now use it on my beers as well but lets be honest, with a normal beer a mash paddle or kitchen stainless spoon is easy enough.


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## newguy

Ronin said:


> So does that mean you don't think it's necessary to add the nutrient incrementally, or is it more a flavour thing than a fermentation rate?



I actually wanted to add it incrementally again, but I just wasn't able to because of the vacation. 2 months later, and it seems I was worried over nothing as it's almost done anyway. It had an OG of 1.090 and was down to 1.016 2 weeks ago. Flavour-wise, it's every bit as fantastic as the first one I made. However, the first's OG was 1.120 and it finished at 1.010. I'm not sure I'm going to get that much attenuation with this batch, and I'm okay with that. The current batch is quite sweet, and I like a sweet mead. The first batch was medium-sweet at best.


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## Wolfy

*newguy*, according to the MP3 interview (linked above) Kurt Stock credits much of his basic process to Ken Schramm's book and in the interview he also suggests adding the yeast nutrients gradually over several days - starting about 6 hours after the yeast is pitched. What I was trying to decipher was where/how to get those yeast nutrients that they mention (and you also explain above) here in Australia, hopefully someone in this thread will have a supplier suggestion. 

Interestingly Ken also suggests using a no-heat method where he dumps the honey (even solid) in the fermenter and then uses sanitized electric beaters to completely mix & aerate for about 10 mins. The way he talks it makes the entire process seem much simpler and quicker than making beer and much less complex than I thought mead making would be.


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## newguy

Wolfy said:


> [The way he talks it makes the entire process seem much simpler and quicker than making beer and much less complex than I thought mead making would be.



Our club brought in a local commercial meadmaker a couple of years ago to give us a talk about mead. Some of things he said had most of the crowd politely raising their eyebrows in disbelief because there's just no way that you can get away with them for beer. For instance, his matter-of-fact assurance that you can make a very good mead with baker's yeast. The man had never heard of liquid yeast either. However, his meads were good so he must know what he was talking about.

I pasteurise my must because I'm just way, way too paranoid. It only takes me a little longer to do and it affords me piece of mind, so I'm going to continue doing it. But you can still make great mead without pasteurisation. I just can't bring myself to not do it, that's all.



Wolfy said:


> What I was trying to decipher was where/how to get those yeast nutrients that they mention (and you also explain above) here in Australia, hopefully someone in this thread will have a supplier suggestion.



This is the same thing as the yeast nutrient available in north america I mentioned earlier. You can get diammonium phosphate here (sorry no picture).


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## Wolfy

newguy said:


> This is the same thing as the yeast nutrient available in north america I mentioned earlier. You can get diammonium phosphate here (sorry no picture).


Thankyou. 
Both site sponsors also so I'd looked at what they had, but was confused since they both use the name name 'yeast nutrient' so I was not sure if they were both an all-in-one product or if they were different things like it seems they are.


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## Ronin

Just letting you all know, Grain and Grape are putting in an order from Wyeast on Monday. I'm getting the 4632 dry yeast ordered. I don't know how often they order, but get in before monday if you want it soon.

Feel better now, I'm doing something :lol: 

James


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## reviled

Ronin said:


> I guess I can get them from there as a last resort, but I'm always a bit iffy about the long postage.



Mate, I wouldnt worry about that at all! Most of us kiwi's get our liquids through Ross, bet it takes a hell of alot longer to get to us than it does for you, and all my yeasties have been fine, dried and liquid B) Plus Ross is a top bloke and runs an awesome business which we should all support! 

No affiliation yadayada


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## scott_penno

Brendo,

I made a dry mead some 6 months ago using 3kg honey topped up to 10L and then used EC1118 (champagne yeast). I let if ferment right out (ended up at 0.999) and bottled half without priming and primed the other half with around 24g/L of sugar to give around 6 atmospheres of CO2 which is supposed to end up something champagne like. Sampled after two months and I wasn't overly impressed and have left it alone ever since because it is supposed to improve with age. I could bring some along to the case swap if you're interested?

sap.


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## Moray

hi all,

I have used champange yeast in the past and have been very happy with results.
I also used pectinase. I can't remeber why, I think it was to help the yeasties break down the complex sugars in honey.


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## chappo1970

Ok I am wayyy to lazy today to do a search on this...

WTF is "pectinase"? And how important is it in making Mead?


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## brendo

sappas said:


> Brendo,
> 
> I made a dry mead some 6 months ago using 3kg honey topped up to 10L and then used EC1118 (champagne yeast). I let if ferment right out (ended up at 0.999) and bottled half without priming and primed the other half with around 24g/L of sugar to give around 6 atmospheres of CO2 which is supposed to end up something champagne like. Sampled after two months and I wasn't overly impressed and have left it alone ever since because it is supposed to improve with age. I could bring some along to the case swap if you're interested?
> 
> sap.



Hey Sappas - that would be awesome if you don't mind. From what I have read/heard - 2 months is probably a bit early, I think they are supposed to hit their straps at around 12 months. Would love to pick your brain about it at the swap tho.

Thanks for the offer mate!!

brendo


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## Airgead

Ronin said:


> I found this thread interesting
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=9714
> 
> Sounds like Airgead did some experimenting with mead a few years ago. I'd be interested in how they turned out, maybe he'll let us know?




I will indeed...Happy to help fellow meadmakers out.

The experiments are still ongoing. I'm playing around with fruit meads at the moment making multiple batches and varying one element of the brewing process each time to see what works and what doesn't.

I bought a 25kg bucket of honey and have been using that in all test meads to remove honey as a variable. 

So far I have investigated the following pieces of meadmaking lore - 

Add acid to balance after fermentation not before. Result - makes no difference at all tot he ferments I have done. Identical batches one with acid one without fermented in the same vessel with half of the same starter finished at the same FG in the same time. Adding acid after fermentation does mean you only need to dose the finished mead and not any that gets wasted during fermentation (trub, racking losses etc) but that's not a big deal on a home scale. Myth busted

Mead needs nutrients for good fermentation - result: you bet it does. If you want a 2 year fermentation then leave the nutrient out. I haven't played with multiple nutrient additions, I've just been adding it to the primary at the recommended rate. Myth confirmed.

Boil your honey - result: i know I'm starting a religious war with this one but I come down on the side of no boil. I find the best results are add the honey to water at 70c and sit at that temp for 10 mins or so to pasteurise. Boiled honey has very little aroma after fermentation. Many batches and not one infection from not boiling. Myth busted.

You can't make a good mead with eucalyptus honey - result: I use nothing but (red gum is what I bought 25kg of) and I think the meads are pretty good. They do take a year or so to mature but they end up with a lot of character. If you use a bland honey it matures quickly but has no character. Maybe for a mel or meth but for a straight mead you want the honey character there. Myth busted.

My standard test mead at the moment is a strawberry melomel as I am looking into the best way to get the fruit character preserved. Results not fully in yet but so far I can say that adding the fruit in secondary fermentation gives a better result that adding to the primary.

I'll keep you guys updated...

Cheers
Dave


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## Effect

Here is my only contribution...

I have been watching how to make mead on youtube.

mead making youtube channel


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## fraser_john

Thanks Dave, good info, especially the no-boil bit!


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## Airgead

Chappo said:


> Ok I am wayyy to lazy today to do a search on this...
> 
> WTF is "pectinase"? And how important is it in making Mead?



OK... Pectinase is an enzyme that breaks down the pectins in fruit. It is used in meadmaking as it kelps fruit meads (melomels) to clear and helps extract the flavours. I also use it for making cider and fruit beer.

If you are just making a straight mead (honey and water) pectinase will do you no good at all.

Cheers
Dave


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## chappo1970

Airgead said:


> OK... Pectinase is an enzyme that breaks down the pectins in fruit. It is used in meadmaking as it kelps fruit meads (melomels) to clear and helps extract the flavours. I also use it for making cider and fruit beer.
> 
> If you are just making a straight mead (honey and water) pectinase will do you no good at all.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave



Cheers for that. Pectin I have used in making jams/conserves so i thought that might be in the same vein.

Any recipe suggestions for a 1st time Mead maker with 10kgs of Ironbark Honey?


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## Hefty

Hi guys,
I'm not making mead yet but I'm keeping the idea tucked away for the near future. I do have a question tho:
I recently read one of Charlie P's books (I always get his titles mixed up so I won't list it in case I get it wrong) and it had a section on mead that talked about calculating OG's from honey and I was totally lost. I couldn't follow it.
Do you _measure_ the OG as per usual with hydrometer?
How can you _calculate/estimate anticipated_ OG from a given amount of honey in water?

Cheers!
Jono.


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## Airgead

Chappo said:


> Cheers for that. Pectin I have used in making jams/conserves so i thought that might be in the same vein.
> 
> Any recipe suggestions for a 1st time Mead maker with 10kgs of Ironbark Honey?



Ironbark makes a great mead. I used to buy a dry ironbark mead from Mt Vincent in Mudgee before it closed down.

Its a good strong honey so it will make a lovely straight mead if you are prepared to wait for it to mature. All you need to do is pasteurise the honey at 70c for 10 mins or so and dilute down to the OG you want. I'm assuming you'll be making a 5l batch to start with in which case between 750g and 2kg of honey will give you something in the right range (hard to give an accurate figure as honeys do vary). Start with 750g, measure OG and keep adding till you hit your mark. Add yeast nutrient to the recommended level in the primary. Ferment with a wine yeast. Dry wine yeast if you want a dry mead, sweet yeast if you don't. I use the dry wine yeasts and they are fine. I haven't experimented on pitching rates yet so i can't advise there. The manufacturer's recommendations seem to work OK. Test the acid levels and adjust to suit the style you are aiming for. You will need to add a fair bit as honey doesn't have much of its own. Your acid test kit will have some PPM recommendations for different wine styles. I usually shoot for a little under what the wine recommendations are. If you are adding fruit, adjust acid AFTER adding the fruit as the fruit will have acid in it and you will end up with too much.

If you want to add fruit, do it in the secondary. Add a little at first, ferment it out and taste. If its not enough, add more. Its easier to add more than it is to take some away after you have added it. Remember that the flavours will mellow and change with time so if it tastes just a tiny bit too much now it will probably be OK when its mature. Its not an exact science, trial and error is the only way to get the amount right.

Cheers
Dave


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## chappo1970

Thanks Airgead

What would be a good OG? 1070 or higher?


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## Ronin

Airgead said:


> I will indeed...Happy to help fellow meadmakers out.
> 
> The experiments are still ongoing. I'm playing around with fruit meads at the moment making multiple batches and varying one element of the brewing process each time to see what works and what doesn't.
> 
> I bought a 25kg bucket of honey and have been using that in all test meads to remove honey as a variable.
> 
> So far I have investigated the following pieces of meadmaking lore -
> 
> I'll keep you guys updated...
> 
> Cheers
> Dave




Thanks for chiming in Dave, that was a great post.

I was listening to the Jamil Show on mead on the train home lastnight, interesting that the mead expert he had on (can't remember his name) pretty much agreed with all of your points except the acid. He pretty much specifically stated add the acid at the end if you are going to. It's always good to hear the results of first hand experiments. I'm pretty sure he said there was nothing wrong with eucalypt honey also.

Sounds like you're stepping through the variables in a very scientific manner.

Thanks for your input,

James

P.S. I'm also interested in what O.G.s you started off at. I'm getting a few 3kg batches of honey to start off with, which I think whould get me in the area of 1.080 in 10L.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Airgead said:


> Mead needs nutrients for good fermentation - result: you bet it does. If you want a 2 year fermentation then leave the nutrient out. I haven't played with multiple nutrient additions, I've just been adding it to the primary at the recommended rate. Myth confirmed.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll keep you guys updated...
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


Have a look http://www.gryphonbrewing.com.au/store/pro...;products_id=79 for info on nuitrient. Dont know if this is what you use.


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## davewaldo

Wow, somehow I missed this thread until now! Its becoming quite a "Beginners Guide" which is GREAT! 

I've been experimenting with Meads for a while now and I'm really enjoying it!

For those looking for a great supplier of yeasts and Nutrient look at www.morewinemaking.com They stock all the yeasts and nutrients you will hear mentioned in most of the good recipes (like Fermaid-K and GoFerm). I like to use D-47 yeast for all my plain Meads, particularly the sweet ones. 

If your not keen to buy from overseas, the best nutrient I have found is the one sold at CB as discussed above. Its a complex Nutrient as apposed to plain DAP.

A lot of people are asking about how to predict specific gravity of Mead musts. On  you will find a "Mead Calculator" its a bit tricky to use, but there is a help section. This calculator can predict you gravity, but also tell you how much honey to add to increase you gravity from one point to another. It also contians friut sugar levels if your making a Melomel.

As I use glass carboys I prefer to aerate with a airstone and pump. For one its easier, but I also think it pumps fresh air down into the carboy. If you aerate with a stirrer on a drill (or similar) once fermentation has been going for a few days, the must will out-gas CO2 which will fill the glass carboy and all your stirring will just keep mixing this gas around, I don't see how fresh O2 would get into the Must. This isn't an issue if you do your primary ferment in a bucket (as the air can move around), but in glass carboys I think its an issue.

I have Ken Schramm's book and its a VERY good guide to get you going. 

I would thoroughly recommend a beginner to start with a simple plain mead as their first go. This way you can get to know the process and actually taste what fermented honey tastes like. You'll also be able to appreciate better how it ages.

Well, I've ranted enough for this post.... 

Dave.


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## brettprevans

good info. whats your experiance with yeast pitching rates?


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## Ronin

Hi Dave,

definitely planning on keeping it simple for the first few batches. I don't know if I've ever had mead with fruit in it.

I was just going to get the yeast nutrient from craftbrewer, that has everything I need? There was some discussion somewhere about DAP and nutrient being different and you have to add both. It'd be much easier if I can just use the one from Ross.

Thanks,

James


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## davewaldo

From what I have read, Fermaid-K really is the best all round Nutrient. From the limited info I can get from the manufacturers of the Craftbrewer Nutrient, it seems to be very similar. The CB nutrient already contains around 50% or more of DAP. It also contains yeast extract with is the other important ingredient. They main reason I use Fermaid-K is that I know its good, and I know whats in it, and I can easily confer with other experienced Mead makers around the world as they can also relate to this nutrient.

So to answer you questions: Yes, I think you can use just the CB nutrient. I have done batches with just this nutrient and they turned out OK (it was my early batches I made with this nutrient so its hard for me to judge).

As for pitching rates, I usually go by the wine recommendation for that yeast or slightly higher. 

One thing you don't want to do is make a start which contains any nutrient! You can actually damage you yeast this way, and also the yeast then get a shock when they hit the must. The only nutrient to use during rehydration or a starter is Go-Ferm, which contains no DAP.


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## chappo1970

Welcome Dave!
Actually this started from the other Honey thread as there was a lot interest in the mead subject. Please feel free to contribute as much or as little as you want.


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## Ronin

davewaldo said:


> From what I have read, Fermaid-K really is the best all round Nutrient. From the limited info I can get from the manufacturers of the Craftbrewer Nutrient, it seems to be very similar. The CB nutrient already contains around 50% or more of DAP. It also contains yeast extract with is the other important ingredient. They main reason I use Fermaid-K is that I know its good, and I know whats in it, and I can easily confer with other experienced Mead makers around the world as they can also relate to this nutrient.
> 
> So to answer you questions: Yes, I think you can use just the CB nutrient. I have done batches with just this nutrient and they turned out OK (it was my early batches I made with this nutrient so its hard for me to judge).
> 
> As for pitching rates, I usually go by the wine recommendation for that yeast or slightly higher.
> 
> One thing you don't want to do is make a start which contains any nutrient! You can actually damage you yeast this way, and also the yeast then get a shock when they hit the must. The only nutrient to use during rehydration or a starter is Go-Ferm, which contains no DAP.



So if I wanted to propagate a Wyeast mead yeast on DME, how would I acclimatise it to growing in must? Is there anything else I can propagate it in?


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## newguy

Ronin said:


> I was just going to get the yeast nutrient from craftbrewer, that has everything I need? There was some discussion somewhere about DAP and nutrient being different and you have to add both. It'd be much easier if I can just use the one from Ross.



My first cider and perry both started to get stinky (sulphur) and someone on the BJCP's forums suggested DAP as a fix. It did fix the problem. Since honey is about as devoid of nutrients as apple and pear juice, I always add it just in case. I have no evidence that leaving it out will lead to a sulphury mead as I've always added it and don't know what will happen if I leave it out. However, from my experience with the cider and perry I can tell you that if the mead takes on a sulphur aroma, you can add it then, and the aroma will disappear.


----------



## davewaldo

For sweet meads I aim for 1.120
Meadium Meads, maybe 1.095-1.100
Dry Meads 1.090

This is if using a yeast with an alc tolerance of around 14%.


Some rough Gravity levels for those who want a rough guide:

3.3kg Honey - 10L water = 1.100

1.6kg Honey - 5L water = 1.100


2.9kg Honey - 10L = 1.090

I like to do 4.5-5L batches for new recipes. I often add 1.5Kg of honey and get a medium Mead.


----------



## brettprevans

billent OG info there mate cheers. 

if using the W47 (as you indicated you do), how many packs of yeast do you use if what i should have asked.

Also just fyi Ive just ordered Ken Schramm's book. should be good for a read if nothing else.


----------



## chappo1970

davewaldo said:


> For sweet meads I aim for 1.120
> Meadium Meads, maybe 1.095-1.100
> Dry Meads 1.090
> 
> This is if using a yeast with an alc tolerance of around 14%.
> 
> 
> Some rough Gravity levels for those who want a rough guide:
> 
> 3.3kg Honey - 10L water = 1.100
> 
> 1.6kg Honey - 5L water = 1.100
> 
> 
> 2.9kg Honey - 10L = 1.090
> 
> I like to do 4.5-5L batches for new recipes. I often add 1.5Kg of honey and get a medium Mead.



D'oh!

You said that on the other thread! Thanks for the ratio's!

5lt batch would yield how much Mead roughly?


----------



## Ronin

So does that mean the final gravity is more dependent on the starting gravity than it is on the attenuation of the yeast? Or does the % alcohol stop the yeast before complete attenuation can be reached?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, I'll get myself a book soon.


----------



## davewaldo

As for Nutrient Scheduling:

I like to Re-hydrate with Go-Ferm (or just re-hydrate with plain water)
Then once the lag phase is over (active fermentation has begun) I add 2.5g of Fermaid-K per 10L of Must
Then once the one third sugar break is reached (1/3 of sugars eaten, usually a few days) I add another 2.5g of Fermaid-K per 10L
Everyday the Must is aerated well.

I think it would be safe to substitute the CB nutrient in similar quantities.

The reason no nutrient is added at the start is:
1. So any bad yeasts or nasties don't use those nutrients to out compete your yeast.
2. Its been shown in research that the yeast do better, and start stronger this way.

Ideally your trying to keep your yeast strong and healthy but ALWAYS hungry, otherwise they won't want to eat up all those sugars!


----------



## chappo1970

Ronin said:


> Sorry for the barrage of questions, I'll get myself a book soon.



Ronin this threads for noobs to Mead like you and me... that's the idea, ask questions so we can all learn. I am sure the guys here won't mind a bit?


----------



## Ronin

Chappo said:


> Ronin this threads for noobs to Mead like you and me... that's the idea, ask questions so we can all learn. I am sure the guys here won't mind a bit?



I feel a little better now :lol:


----------



## davewaldo

hehe, learning about mead making is fun huh!  

Ok.... 

The yeast I use is D-47, not W47. Its a dry wine yeast. I use one 8g packet for a 10L batch. Maybe 2 packets for a 20L batch, but one might be enough.

The general idea to get the sweetness you like is to take the yeast beyond its alcohol tolerance. So if you want a sweet mead, use enough honey to go to 16-17% percent but the yeast should stop at 14%, therefore leaving it a bit sweet. If you want a medium Mead, go a little lower, for dry maybe aim for 13% and the yeast will go all the way and eat all the sugars.

The biggest problem with doing small batches it you only end up with about 4-5 750ml bottles by the end of it, after taking out hydrometer samples and things.

But its a good way to test new recipes and ingredients/yeasts.

Honey is expensive, so I want to know I'm onto a good thing before I outlay $$ for a 20L batch.


----------



## davewaldo

I should also note that most of the yeasts suitable for mead need to ferment quite cool.

Often around 16 degrees. So check with the manufacturer of the yeast for their temp recommendations and try to keep it to the cooler end to the range they recommend.


----------



## chappo1970

davewaldo said:


> hehe, learning about mead making is fun huh!



Down right addictive IMO




davewaldo said:


> ...problem with doing small batches it you only end up with about 4-5 750ml bottles by the end of it, after taking out hydrometer samples and things...Honey is expensive, so I want to know I'm onto a good thing before I outlay $$ for a 20L batch.



4-5 750ml to start with would be perfect for me. I just want to get my toes wet in this craft for the moment and wish to experiment till I come across a flavour/style that I like and then I will hit the 20lt batches for sure.


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## davewaldo

The small 5L glass carboys are good for small batches and for ageing the mead. But you will need 2 so you can rack between them.

I have 4 of them so I can have 3 meads on the go at once. I always have a clean one so I can rack off the lees when necessary. 

Its good to rack off the lees after primary (just like a beer, you can cold crash too if you like) and then leave it to settle, maybe for a couple of months and then rack again and then let it age/clear (maybe only rack once for a 5L batch or it will disappear!).

Don't bottle until you can read a newspaper through it!


----------



## chappo1970

Thanks Dave for all the advice

Looks like I'm off to CB's tomorrow for some 5lt carboys and some yeast and some nutrients and some.... :lol:


----------



## davewaldo

I thought I might tell you how my first mead went....

I used US-05, which can be good for a mead you want to drink it young.

I did some aeration and used a good amount of nutrient. Unfortunately the yeast conked out at about 10% alc (wyeast says is can go to 12-13%). So I was left with a VERY sweet mead around 1.040, but the taste was actually really good! This is really common in mead making. Getting good performance out of your yeast is the only tricky part in making Mead I think.

So if I was to give any advice to the new mead maker, I would recommend using a lower starting gravity, and don't assumer your yeast will fully attenuate. If your yeast is going strong and ferments dry you can always feed it more honey until it stops at the sweetness you like.

So I might blend this sweet mead with a dryer one eventually, but at the moment I've left it to age.... the girls like it sweet anyways.... 

Oh also remember... Ageing fixes nearly everything! So never tip out a bad tasting mead, no matter how bad it is. Leave it for a year and see how it goes.


----------



## AndrewQLD

Here's a picture of my Orange, Cinnamon and Clove mead, really easy to make and uses bakers yeast as well.





Recipe is:
1.6kg Macadamia honey 
1 Large orange (later cut in eights or smaller rind and all) 
1 small handful of raisins (25 if you count but more or less ok) 
1 stick of cinnamon 
1 whole clove 
1 teaspoon of Dried bread yeasr
Balance water to one gallon 

I adapted the recipe from here Joe Mattioli's Foolproof Ancient Orange, Clove, and Cinnamon Mead 


Andrew


----------



## Chad

I've been doing the occasional mead over the past 2.5 years, and still have some of batch one in the cupboard. I've had mixed results, but none that have made me think "wow, this is a good drink".
The problem is that I have only ever bought/tasted one commercial mead which was Old Caves, Liquer Mead from Stanthorpe. This is a sensational drop. So, I am yet to taste a regular commercial mead. So based on that I just don't know what it should really taste like.

The best one that I have done so far has been an orange melomel, and used Tandaco bread yeast to ferment it out. This is quite drinkable, but as I said there is no Wow factor.
One thing I have noticed is that they are definitely getting better with time.

Chappo, I will try to remember to bring a bottle to the March meeting for you to try, and another in a few meetings after that.


----------



## Ronin

Chappo said:


> Thanks Dave for all the advice
> 
> Looks like I'm off to CB's tomorrow for some 5lt carboys and some yeast and some nutrients and some.... :lol:



I'm really glad I don't live in the same state as that store. Even mail order I end up spending too much, at least I've got a weight limit to try and stick to.


----------



## Ronin

AndrewQLD said:


> 1.6kg Macadamia honey
> 
> Andrew



Macadamia honey! Where'd you get that from. I think I need to find some.


----------



## AndrewQLD

Ronin said:


> Macadamia honey! Where'd you get that from. I think I need to find some.



One of the local producers (Bundaberg), a mate of mine buys bulk honey for his work occasionally and he kindly grabbed 10lt for me.

Andrew


----------



## Airgead

davewaldo said:


> As for Nutrient Scheduling:
> 
> I like to Re-hydrate with Go-Ferm (or just re-hydrate with plain water)
> Then once the lag phase is over (active fermentation has begun) I add 2.5g of Fermaid-K per 10L of Must
> Then once the one third sugar break is reached (1/3 of sugars eaten, usually a few days) I add another 2.5g of Fermaid-K per 10L
> Everyday the Must is aerated well.
> 
> I think it would be safe to substitute the CB nutrient in similar quantities.
> 
> The reason no nutrient is added at the start is:
> 1. So any bad yeasts or nasties don't use those nutrients to out compete your yeast.
> 2. Its been shown in research that the yeast do better, and start stronger this way.
> 
> Ideally your trying to keep your yeast strong and healthy but ALWAYS hungry, otherwise they won't want to eat up all those sugars!



I'm going to disagree with you here.

Yeast needs nutrient to make more yeast during its aerobic reproduction phase. This means it needs it at the beginning. Once it has reproduced and goes anaerobic it doesn't need the nutrient so much any more so adding it later won't do much

If you have wild yeast or bacteria in there they will generally out compete your good yeast nutrient or not. in fact they are probably better at dealing with low nutrient environments that your brewing yeast so they are likely to do even better. Adding the nutrient may favour your brewing yeast over the wild stuff. Anyway... that's what we have sanitation for.

I am also going to disagree on aerating the must every day. There is no way you want to be doing that. Once those yeast go anaerobic you want them to stay that way. Mead will oxidise just like beer will. Worse in fact because hops provide some antioxidant.

Winemakers do agitate their musts to break up the layer of skins etc that forms but I see no reason to do that wil mead. I'd leave it well sealed and let that yeast get down to business undisturbed.


Edit: sorry.. found something else to disagree about. From one of your earlier posts you said never add nutrient to a starter. Again I disagree. Yeast really need that nutrient during their reproductive phase which is exactly what you want out of a starter - lots of good health cells. I always add nutrient to starters. Even malt based ones. 

You mentioned in another post that your first mead came out under attenuated. i would suggest that its the way that you are using the nutrient that may be partly at fault there.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## chappo1970

Wow Andrew that's very clear even the plastic bottle is lensing/magnifying the grout in the tiles behind.


----------



## Wolfy

AndrewQLD said:


> I adapted the recipe from here Joe Mattioli's Foolproof Ancient Orange, Clove, and Cinnamon Mead


That's the exact same recipe I used for my first, don't recognize that forum so I guess it was copied somewhere.
I lost my bookmarks so I couldn't find the link again.

I used some champagne yeast from the LHB and it turned out very very dry - too much so for our tastes - not so bad mixed 1/2-1/2 with lemonade.


----------



## davewaldo

Hi Airgread,

I'm no expert on mead, I'm simply passing on what seems to be the agreed best practise for Mead making (mainly in the US). So I guess I should qualify some of my statments.

I agree with you that yeast need nutrients at the start which is why I use Go-Ferm which gives the yeast everything it needs to make a strong start but doesn't include DAP. DAP can prove toxic to rehydrating yeast and can cause more damage than good. Read more here: http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13600 some of the members on Got mead like PBakulic (oskaar) and Wayneb are VERY experienced mead makers (and quite famous in these circles). I use their methods and recomendations which are built upon good research and experience. By the way, this is also the process recomened by Lallemand who make the yeast and nutrient I use, and supply ALOT of yeast and nutrient to the wine industry (take a read on their site).

As for mead starters without any nutrient, this is an area I don't have any experience with. However I am just repeating the general knwledge from very experienced mead makers. Do a search on the gotmead website for more info (I'll try and find the info I've read and post it tomorrow). The reason I have no experience with starters is because I used dried wine yeasts from lalemand. If rehydrated with G-Ferm its really not nessesary to make a starter unless you going for huge SG around 1.200 or more.

I totally agree that you don't want to aerate *once* the yeast have gone annerobic. This is why you stop aerating at the 1/3 sugar break (like I said). It is around this point that research has proven that the yeast makes the change from aerobic to anerobic. Before the 1/3 sugar break the yeast is in the reproduction phase and needs the O2. The oxygen your giving them creates a strong cell wall so they can complete the task without falling out prematurely. Many accomplished mead makers reccomend aerating twice a day until the 1/3 sugar break. Usually this is ends up being only for the first few days. After this you avoid oxegen like the plague! You're absolutly right that it is quite easy to oxidise mead.

Also you might want to read more into agetating the must. Most commercial mead makers employ a lees stirrer to keep the yeast in suspension for primary fermentation. All these things, nutrients, aeration and agitation help create a quick and clean fermentation. 

There has been tremendous advancments in the science/knowledge of mead making over the last 10 or so years. And although its best to compare mead making to wine making (rather than beer making), they don't follow the same process.

Anyways, its getting late and I've ranted enough. 

Dave

PS. The only reason I mentioned my (somewhat failed) first mead was to encourage first time mead makers not to expect a perfect result first time. I agree there were many problems with my first mead. My yeast choice was poor, my nurient shedule was not great, but I think most importantly my aeration was not good after day 1.


----------



## davewaldo

But really we're splitting hairs here. 

If you use good nutrient and aeration you should get a good result. 

I've just been repeating what I have found to be the "accepted best practise" by the very experienced and sucsessful mead makers throughoutthe world. These include Ken Schramm and many over at gotmead.com (including many comercial mead makers).


----------



## chappo1970

Chad said:


> I've been doing the occasional mead over the past 2.5 years, and still have some of batch one in the cupboard. I've had mixed results, but none that have made me think "wow, this is a good drink".
> The problem is that I have only ever bought/tasted one commercial mead which was Old Caves, Liquer Mead from Stanthorpe. This is a sensational drop. So, I am yet to taste a regular commercial mead. So based on that I just don't know what it should really taste like.
> 
> The best one that I have done so far has been an orange melomel, and used Tandaco bread yeast to ferment it out. This is quite drinkable, but as I said there is no Wow factor.
> One thing I have noticed is that they are definitely getting better with time.
> 
> Chappo, I will try to remember to bring a bottle to the March meeting for you to try, and another in a few meetings after that.



That would be great Chad cheers! I am not really sure what's good and bad with Mead or how it should taste as well. I had a commercial Mead in Munich but that was ages ago now. I only remember I liked it LOL!


----------



## brettprevans

ok so I went to my copy of Mosher's _Radical Brewing _on the weekend. strangely enough it was bookmarked at Meads! I'll post some of the info later. Good reading and some good reciepes. It also has info on aeration, yeast nutrient, acid levels and making other mead ralted brews such as fruit meads etc.

oooh look what i found on the internet  . just exactly what I was talking about.
View attachment mead_info_from_mosher.pdf


----------



## chappo1970

citymorgue2 said:


> ok so I went to my copy of Mosher's _Radical Brewing _on the weekend. strangely enough it was bookmarked at Meads! I'll post some of the info later. Good reading and some good reciepes. It also has info on aeration, yeast nutrient, acid levels and making other mead ralted brews such as fruit meads etc.
> 
> oooh look what i found on the internet  . just exactly what I was talking about.
> View attachment 25119



Snatch!  

Thanks CM2... will print and read that on the train home tonight. This thread is getting packed with some really good information now. I feel I should go rumage a book store or 3 and try to contribute more. How's the honey bulk buy going? I am going to get 10kg pale of Ironbark from the guy I usually buy from this weekend. I'm still faffing around with recipes at this stage.


----------



## brettprevans

honey BB is at ~85kg worth now @ ~$5 per kg. im guessing we will hit the 100kg mark.

Im going to make up the recipe above and this one (which is Bconnery's Chrismoose Ale but with all honey fermentables)

4kg honey
130g Crystal 
20g Dark Munich
4 oranges. (juice and rind of 4)
2.5tsp nutmeg. 
1.5 tsp cloves. 
1tsp mixed spice. 
6 cardamon pods crushed.
2 sticks + 1tsp cinnamon.
10g Hersbrucker @45
25g Hersbrucker @ 15
20g Hallertau @ 45 
20g Hallertau @ 15


----------



## Ronin

citymorgue2 said:


> honey BB is at ~85kg worth now @ ~$5 per kg. im guessing we will hit the 100kg mark.



Especially because I'm considering ordering more :lol:


----------



## chappo1970

citymorgue2 said:


> ...100kg mark.



Better watch out for rogue bears trying to pull a heist h34r: ... they scan this forum you know! :lol: 



citymorgue2 said:


> 4kg honey
> 130g Crystal
> 20g Dark Munich
> 4 oranges. (juice and rind of 4)
> 2.5tsp nutmeg.
> 1.5 tsp cloves.
> 1tsp mixed spice.
> 6 cardamon pods crushed.
> 2 sticks + 1tsp cinnamon.
> 10g Hersbrucker @45
> 25g Hersbrucker @ 15
> 20g Hallertau @ 45
> 20g Hallertau @ 15



Yeah it looks good. I think I want to start somewhere in the plain end of the scale to understand the taste and move on from there, like that original recipe you were looking at.


----------



## Airgead

davewaldo said:


> But really we're splitting hairs here.
> 
> If you use good nutrient and aeration you should get a good result.



Too right. Thats the real key. Aerate well (whatever method works for you) and use nutrient (again whatever works for you) and you should be right.

My personal preference is to keep it simple (as I'm pretty simple myself) so I aerate once before I pitch. Pitch a good sized starter. One application of nutrient into the primary before pitching.

I'll give the more complex regime a go side by side with the simple and see if it makes any difference.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## chappo1970

citymorgue2 said:


> oooh look what i found on the internet  . just exactly what I was talking about.
> View attachment 25119


A+++ CM2 it's a very good read cheers for putting it our way. Read on the way home last night and then again on the way in.

Ok so I'm settling on less elobrate recipe more along a wheaten honeywine

5.2kg Wheat malt
0.9kg Lager malt
1.4kg Ironbark Honey
150gr Fresh Ginger
Juice of 5 Lemons
4 Cinnamon sticks

Hops
45gr Tettnang 60mins
30gr Tettnang 30mins
30gr Tettnang 0mins
20gr Lemon Zest 0mins

Still trying to balance this a little?


----------



## brettprevans

is 150g of fresh ginger too much? i have no idea. it just sounds like a lot. 

id love to taste this. i cant imagine what it will taste like.


----------



## chappo1970

citymorgue2 said:


> is 150g of fresh ginger too much? i have no idea. it just sounds like a lot.
> 
> id love to taste this. i cant imagine what it will taste like.




To be honest I don't know? :wacko: I read some recipe which had it somewhere in the big wide world of tha intamahnet and thought that ginger and honey are good mates in food so why not in Mead? I think I might throw some fresh ground corriander seeds in there too?

OT: I make a pretty good prawn dish which is so simple... 1kg shelled green prawns marinate in Garlic, Ginger, Lemon, Lemon zest, honey, fresh ground corriander seeds, white wine or vinegar and a touch of light soy for 2hrs in fridge. Throw on a really hot hot BBQ cook 5mins max. Fresh crusty bread, spinach salad and a pint of a good APA. I might have do this tonight! :beerbang:


----------



## Bribie G

Chad said:


> ..........................
> The problem is that I have only ever bought/tasted one commercial mead which was Old Caves, Liquer Mead from Stanthorpe. This is a sensational drop. So, I am yet to taste a regular commercial mead. So based on that I just don't know what it should really taste like.
> 
> ................



If you get yourself and family out to the Abbey Medieval Festival on the Bribie Road, around the middle of July, they have a popular mead stall - it's an urban myth that there are mead making monks there, actually It's a nice standard and very delicious commercial brew that they buy in bulk. It's what strong cider only thinks it is. :icon_drool2: I have a son who dresses up as a peasant and poonces around for the day, you know the sort of thing. Hell I might get the sewing machine out myself and go as a bragotteer whatever they used to wear. Maybe carry a mash paddle and wear a leather apron? MMMMM leather apron.... :wub:


----------



## pdilley

newguy said:


> Our club brought in a local commercial meadmaker a couple of years ago to give us a talk about mead. Some of things he said had most of the crowd politely raising their eyebrows in disbelief because there's just no way that you can get away with them for beer. For instance, his matter-of-fact assurance that you can make a very good mead with baker's yeast. The man had never heard of liquid yeast either. However, his meads were good so he must know what he was talking about.
> 
> I pasteurise my must because I'm just way, way too paranoid. It only takes me a little longer to do and it affords me piece of mind, so I'm going to continue doing it. But you can still make great mead without pasteurisation. I just can't bring myself to not do it, that's all.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the same thing as the yeast nutrient available in north america I mentioned earlier. You can get diammonium phosphate here (sorry no picture).



*raises hand* I have made mead from bakers yeast it can be done. In the olde days the germanic/scandinavian families would pass down the mead stirring stick that magically made mead. I am not sure if it was ash based wood as that wood is said to naturally harbor yeast cultures.

I think it boils down to what you are comfortable with to what method and adjuncts you put into your mead.

I even tried letting wild yeasts naturally culture a mead once, but then that stuff could strip the wax of your kitchen floor!  

What got me back on to mead was finding some Maxwell's at the Queen Victoria Market where I picked a few bottles up and even took a few overseas. It was a nice break from beers and even the wife would drink them.

I've got some smaller carboys or demis on my next shopping trip to the LHBS with the sole purpose for getting back into meads. Will post results as they come in.


----------



## chappo1970

Welcome Brewer Pete all input and advice welcome here on this thread.


----------



## pdilley

Chappo said:


> Welcome Brewer Pete all input and advice welcome here on this thread.



Good to be here!

If anyone wants to try the wild yeast method, the basic idea is to mix up enough for a pitching starter, a 1:9 ratio honey to water should suffice. A day or two outside exposed to the air should suffice. If you are lucky it will ferment out and smell and taste good. You could spend up to 8 goes or more to get the right start with wild yeasts. If you have good one, then you keep your starter like a plant with boiled water cooled and mixed with a little honey added to it to feed it.

The commercial yeasts won't be crash hot the first couple runs you do with them. They will get stronger as you keep them back and reuse them as they adapt to your specific honey and mead adjunct nutrients. A quick way to catch up without having to go through some rather average but drinkable batches is to find someone thats been brewing and has built up a healthy stock of yeast and they will in most cases be nice and pass on some of their mead yeast.

Also good to grab the ol thermometer out and watch your boiling temperatures. You don't want to exceed too high a temperature when bringing the honey up to temp. Honey is resistant to bacterias, virii, etc. and was used to store food for long term back in the olde days before refrigeration by sticking the food items inside honey in a clay pot. You only want a gentle sanitistion not a sterilisation! if you want to preserve the finer aromas and flavours in the honey. Wait until fermented to add herbs and fruits (wrap in muslin or cloth if you want quick and easy removal later) so you can get more delicate aromas and flavours absorbed as it ages -- and this way any wild yeasts on the skins or surface of the additions won't have much of a chance as the mead yeast(s) have had their go already.

Water quality and components and honey are the main factors affecting flavours. Strong honeys give you flavour, weak honeys make a very average tasting mead. Beer fans would probably enjoy adding Thyme.

I though I read a while back to avoid eucalyptus honeys but I have always seen eucalyptus honey meads brewed commercially, so I guess you just need to take all advice with a grain of salt and not be afraid to experiment and break the rules you've built up in your head for brewing other things such as beers. Meads are easier, and my own first brews were meads.


----------



## Wolfy

Brewer Pete said:


> What got me back on to mead was finding some Maxwell's at the Queen Victoria Market where I picked a few bottles up and even took a few overseas. It was a nice break from beers and even the wife would drink them.


Along with the Swift's Creek Horny Goat Mead, the 3 different Maxwell's Mead's are one of very few things my GF likes to drink, she does not like wine or beer so making some Mead is actually is actually something she considers my HB hobby to be useful for. However I do feel that the Maxwell Mead's are more wine-like than I'd prefer, but I have no idea how they are made or what they're made from.


----------



## Airgead

Wolfy said:


> Along with the Swift's Creek Horny Goat Mead, the 3 different Maxwell's Mead's are one of very few things my GF likes to drink, she does not like wine or beer so making some Mead is actually is actually something she considers my HB hobby to be useful for. However I do feel that the Maxwell Mead's are more wine-like than I'd prefer, but I have no idea how they are made or what they're made from.



Wolfy

All the maxwell meads I have had have been atrocious. Sweet lolly water with massively overdone spices.

A good mead (wine style) is much more like a good dry or slightly sweet table wine. They don't tend to be sweet or sickly like the Maxwells stuff. The beer style meads (usually braggots) tend to be like beez kneez only with some body and flavour. 

As for how they are made, I think they make up a must that would ferment to around 15-18% ABV or so but stop fermentation at around 10-12% to leave it sweet. I suspect they heat treat to stop fermentation but can't be sure. I don't think they sterile filter but they could use massive suplhate doses instead.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Wolfy

Airgead said:


> All the maxwell meads I have had have been atrocious. Sweet lolly water with massively overdone spices.


Yes, but I'm talking about someone who otherwise enjoys sugar-sweet-alco-pop - so mostly I'll need to compromise and find something we both like, one of the advantages of brewing your own Mead etc.


----------



## Bribie G

The Braggott's in the fermenter  

Final recipe:
2000g Maris Otter
100g Dark Crystal


69 degrees for one hour


30g Newport 60 mins
1 cinnamon quill
10 whole cloves
10 cardmom pods

60 min boil, one whirlfloc tablet

3kg ALDI honey

Poured onto ice and pitched immediately, US - 05

I didn't use aroma hops as I'm hoping the honey and spices will come to the fore. When boiling it was amazing how the hops, cloves, cinnamon and cardmom blended, you couldn't tell where one ended and the others began.

I'll bring a bottle to the March BABBs meeting, I'm aiming for just normal Ale times.


----------



## chappo1970

BribieG said:


> I'll bring a bottle to the March BABBs meeting, I'm aiming for just normal Ale times.


 :chug: 

Look forward to that one BribieG.

Was it pretty straight forward? Did you BIAB style?


----------



## Airgead

BribieG said:


> I'll bring a bottle to the March BABBs meeting, I'm aiming for just normal Ale times.



I have found that although they are drinkable in normal ale times, Braggots (especially those with > 20% honey) really benefit from 2-3 months maturation. The higher the honey % the longer. I do a 50% braggot and its hitting its peak after about 4 months.

Edit : corrected 2% to 20%...


----------



## Bribie G

Yes straightforward BIAB. I was just using up grain that I had on hand, if I like it I'll use 3kg next time and probably some carared. I was going to use carared but my order from Ross hadn't arrived by then.

The proof will be in the tasting  
Oh and in the ingredients I forgot to mention a sliced up large stick of the lovely fresh new season ginger we are getting in SEQ at the moment which will also be going into the Vindaloo !

Ah the fusion, the fusion


----------



## Airgead

I'm working from memory here but my normal braggot is something like - 

50% Ale Malt
50% Honey (I used ironbark last time)

Aim for 1.045-1.050

15-20 IBU using Northern Brewer
15g tetnang or tetnang/hallertau mix for 5 mins

Ferment with a decent ale yeast. I've used WLP001 or one of their British strains (05 I think). I'll give it a try with a lager strain next.

Age for 3-4 months if you want it at its best.

Very simple and a damn fine drop.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## JonnyAnchovy

Airgead said:


> All the maxwell meads I have had have been atrocious. Sweet lolly water with massively overdone spices.
> 
> A good mead (wine style) is much more like a good dry or slightly sweet table wine. They don't tend to be sweet or sickly like the Maxwells stuff. The beer style meads (usually braggots) tend to be like beez kneez only with some body and flavour.




Yes and no - I totally agree that maxwells are gross, lack any complexity and depth - just taste sweet and boring. BUT I've made a few batches of super sweet mead that have turned out really well - more in the style of dessert wine than anything else - the sweetness is balanced a little by adjuncts like juniper and cinnamon, and the very high ABV also helps.


----------



## pdilley

I'm with the guys on Maxwell. The key word is wife, or gf. I for one have a hard time with the wife drinking anything other than ultra sweet wine, and only one particular Italian sweet wine. I can drink anything but I have a hard time putting a glass of that stuff down. Now if I could just deal with the wastage side I'd be set  she has no issues just sipping half of it and tossing the rest or letting the remainder in the bottle go off. -- guess thats a good reason to homebrew!

So moving her onto an occasional Maxwell mead is a big step for me. I've tried giving her a tour of a selection of beer styles but the most I've moved on that front is responses from her that "They are all disgusting, but in unique and different ways" 

I can get her onto cider as well, so I have a full demijohn of cider a few days away from bottling.

Maybe alcoholic lemonade or a simply pilsner + non-alcoholic lemonade is the next step up for her.


----------



## chappo1970

Brewer Pete said:


> ...she has no issues just sipping half of it and tossing the rest or letting the remainder in the bottle go off. -- guess thats a good reason to homebrew!



Nooooooooooo!  

White wine vinegar culture for those left overs!!! Home made vinegar is the go.


----------



## Airgead

JonnyAnchovy said:


> Yes and no - I totally agree that maxwells are gross, lack any complexity and depth - just taste sweet and boring. BUT I've made a few batches of super sweet mead that have turned out really well - more in the style of dessert wine than anything else - the sweetness is balanced a little by adjuncts like juniper and cinnamon, and the very high ABV also helps.



Ahhh... now dessert style drinks are a different thing altogether. A nice sticky wine is fantastic. Its hard with a mead to get enough acid and tanin to balance the sweetness without it tasting a bit odd. Not sure of the best word to describe the oddness... I blame the porter I'm drinking right now...Especially with a light honey. I think its a lack of complexity that's the problem. A really dark complex honey helps a lot. I find though that mels make the best dessert wines as the fruit gives it that bit of extra complexity which rounds things out nicely. Spices help too.

I have a batch of liqueur cyser maturing at the moment. Its a basic mead but the honey is diluted with apple juice rather than water. I adjust the OG for a target gravity of about 16% but use a yeast that doesn't handle more than 12. Leaves quite a bit of sweetness behind. Once its cleared I fortify up to 18-20% with brandy and age for a year in bottles. Its damn nice.

I also made a semi sweet mead using some really odd honey I picked up from a beekeper friend. He inherited a couple of hives from a guy who died. They had been neglected for 4-5 years prior to him getting them and when he pulled the honey out it was thick and black. Tasted like treacle or molasses. I tasted it and bought the whole 20kg off him. It made a dark amber mead, semi sweet. Absolutely vile when I first tasted it after a few months but after nearly 2 years its developing into something fantastic.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## davewaldo

Wow Dave, those meads you describe sound GREAT! I like the idea of your fortified Cycer  

Another way I like to add complexity to my Meads is to age them on oak cubes. I prefer cubes to chips as they give a more rounded and complex, and less mono-dimentional flavour compared to chips. They also can have a much longer contact time (months instead of weeks) compared to chips.

Cubes or staves can be harder to get though in OZ... this is where I get them from: More Wine

Oak (if you like it) can add great character to a mead, and can help give "something more" to a sweet mead.

mmmmmmmm OAK!


----------



## Airgead

davewaldo said:


> Wow Dave, those meads you describe sound GREAT! I like the idea of your fortified Cycer
> 
> Another way I like to add complexity to my Meads is to age them on oak cubes. I prefer cubes to chips as they give a more rounded and complex, and less mono-dimentional flavour compared to chips. They also can have a much longer contact time (months instead of weeks) compared to chips.
> 
> Cubes or staves can be harder to get though in OZ... this is where I get them from: More Wine
> 
> Oak (if you like it) can add great character to a mead, and can help give "something more" to a sweet mead.
> 
> mmmmmmmm OAK!



I really must play around with oak some day. The main thing that has held me off doing it is my Mrs who doesn't really like oaked wines much. i suspect meads will be a different story through. Next few batches I might grab sone oak cubes and play around a bit.

Cheers
Dave

P.S. Bottling another cyser batch today...


----------



## barls

i fortified a cyser the other day, ended up being 33% in the end might aim a little bit later.


----------



## chappo1970

Ok need some serious critique's here please, good or bad I don't care just be honest. I am about to order the grains from CB'c for this and my next few brews so if I've got it wrong I would rather know now. Remember I have never done one of these before complete Noob?

5.2kg Wheat malt
0.9kg Lager malt
1.4kg Ironbark Honey
80gr Fresh Ginger
Juice of 5 Lemons
4 Cinnamon sticks

Hops
45gr Tettnang 60mins
30gr Tettnang 30mins
30gr Tettnang 0mins
20gr Lemon Zest 0mins

Ok suggestions on best yeast to use would be good as well. I was thinking Wyeast 9093?

Also temp for fermentation I can't recall any note of this issue or isn't it an issue?


----------



## JonnyAnchovy

Airgead said:


> Ahhh... now dessert style drinks are a different thing altogether. A nice sticky wine is fantastic. Its hard with a mead to get enough acid and tanin to balance the sweetness without it tasting a bit odd.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave



I add a lot of acid - usually citric acid in the form of lemon and orange juice, plus some green and black tea to add tannins. mixed results, but all very drinkable. I've got 5 small carboys full, sitting on lees at the moment that desperately need racking - I'm just too lazy at the moment. Really hope they haven't picked up any off-flavors.

your cyser sounds great, btw.


----------



## pdilley

I have been looking at the Ancient Orange Mead recipe in depth more in plans on what to do with my 4 new carboys that taunt me by sitting there in front of me empty.

The AO recipe looks intriguing as it ferments out quick is drinkable young compared to more modern recipes although it improves with age as well.

The sticker is the recipe is balanced for the US people. Clover honey balancing out the Fleishmann's brand dry yeast. Fleishmann's has an alcohol tolerance of 12% and high flocculation. I have not been able to discover the alc. tol. rates on the Australian brands. What I have dug up is that for a while now all the dry yeast sold in Australia is imported from China no matter what you read on the package in the supermarket. This I think will make my job harder in finding out more details on the yeast strain used.

Until then the AO recipe has to be re-balanced out through trial and error with a set Australian honey and Australian-Chinese imported dry yeast. Keep upping the honey content if it finishes dry instead of sweet.

As such I am not sure if it is worth it myself as I didn't get in on any great bulk buy . Do we have anyone here in Oz who has run a few of these recipes with results to share? 5L carboy will require filling to only 3.87 liters to make it a US 1 gallon liquid level.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Airgead

Brewer Pete said:


> The sticker is the recipe is balanced for the US people. Clover honey balancing out the Fleishmann's brand dry yeast. Fleishmann's has an alcohol tolerance of 12% and high flocculation. I have not been able to discover the alc. tol. rates on the Australian brands. What I have dug up is that for a while now all the dry yeast sold in Australia is imported from China no matter what you read on the package in the supermarket. This I think will make my job harder in finding out more details on the yeast strain used.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete



Supermarket yeast? Do yourself a favour and get some real dried wine yeast from the LHBS (or one fo the sponsors). its easy to find out the alc tolerance and floculation values for them. Last time I bought dried yeast from the LHBS it was about $4 so it won't break the bank.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Airgead

JonnyAnchovy said:


> I add a lot of acid - usually citric acid in the form of lemon and orange juice, plus some green and black tea to add tannins. mixed results, but all very drinkable. I've got 5 small carboys full, sitting on lees at the moment that desperately need racking - I'm just too lazy at the moment. Really hope they haven't picked up any off-flavors.
> 
> your cyser sounds great, btw.



I tend to use an acid blend - tartaric and malic as the citric ends up tasting very, well.. citrusy. I still find that without enough background complexity from the honey it ends up tasting like you added some acid to some sugar water.

I've not tried the old tannin from tea trick. I add grape tannin powder. If I play with oak that should help the tannin balance as well.

I bottled that cyser batch over the weekend. Still needs another 6 months to really balance out but its getting pretty nice.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## davewaldo

Yep, I'll second the use of an Acid blend. I have read that using just citric acid can be a problem as Yeast can metabolise citric acid, therefore lessening its effect. 

Also (I can't remember if this has been mentioned), when making mead it is generally recommended to make no acid additions until the end of fermentation. Wine yeasts like to work in a ph between 4.2-3.5. When yeast begin to metabolise the nutrients and sugars in the must, the buffering minerals and quickly consumed and the acid created by the yeasts and the CO2 (carbonic acid) will cause the ph to drop very quickly. I use Calcium Carbonate to raise the PH when this happens. 

I have a current batch of Mead I started 2 days ago. It started at ph4.2 Within 32 hours of fermentation it had dropped to ph3.2. So I added some Calcium Carbonate to raise it again to 3.8. Some yeasts tolerate low PH better than others.

Once fermentation is complete you can add any acid you like, and you can do it to taste instead of guessing at the start.


----------



## Ronin

davewaldo said:


> Yep, I'll second the use of an Acid blend. I have read that using just citric acid can be a problem as Yeast can metabolise citric acid, therefore lessening its effect.
> 
> Also (I can't remember if this has been mentioned), when making mead it is generally recommended to make no acid additions until the end of fermentation. Wine yeasts like to work in a ph between 4.2-3.5. When yeast begin to metabolise the nutrients and sugars in the must, the buffering minerals and quickly consumed and the acid created by the yeasts and the CO2 (carbonic acid) will cause the ph to drop very quickly. I use Calcium Carbonate to raise the PH when this happens.
> 
> I have a current batch of Mead I started 2 days ago. It started at ph4.2 Within 32 hours of fermentation it had dropped to ph3.2. So I added some Calcium Carbonate to raise it again to 3.8. Some yeasts tolerate low PH better than others.
> 
> Once fermentation is complete you can add any acid you like, and you can do it to taste instead of guessing at the start.



So how often do you check the pH? I'm assuming it keeps dropping throughout the fermentation so you have to keep adding the calcium?


----------



## davewaldo

Yeah thats right, the ph will continue to drop. But I guess how fast is determined by the type of honey (darker honey should contain more minerals) and also the hardness of the water you use.

I check the ph everyday for the first few days at the same time as I'm aerating. I have a cheap digital PH meter, and I think its great! Very quick and easy. After the 1/3 sugar break I check it every second or third day...

But I like to fuss and be in control of my fermentations. Very good mead can be made without worrying about PH. However, fermentation can become completely stuck or slow drastically if the ph drops too low. And it can be hard to get going again (or it might just start again easily with a calcium carb addition).

You can make mead making as complicated or as easy as you like. I tend to do things slightly more complicated than most. But I like to think it saves me time in the long term, having less fermentation problems, and I think I get a fast and clean fermentation with fewer off flavours which take a long time to age out.


----------



## davewaldo

Hey Airgread, what sort of apple juice do you like to use in this yummy sounding cyser of yours?


----------



## Airgead

davewaldo said:


> Hey Airgread, what sort of apple juice do you like to use in this yummy sounding cyser of yours?



I usually use regular preservative free apple juice from the shops (the bilpin stuff is pretty good). In an effort to get more complexity out of the apples and lessen the need to add acid/tannin I will be using a 50/50 mix of apple juice and crab apple juice (from my tree) for the next batch. I am also chasing a source of real cider apples (Kingston Blacks I believe) which are apparently grown by a small orchard up in Bilpin.

On the PH side of things, I did a few experiments where I added acid to one half of a batch and not the other then fermented side by side with identical yeast. I couldn't pick a difference between the acid and no acid batches in terms of fermentation duration/efficiency. Given the natural acidity of grape juice which is what those yeasts are designed for I'm not sure this is really an issue (unless you are adding more acid than the amount present in grapes).

having said that I usually add acid after fermentation as its easier when you are adding fruit. if you add before then add fruit to the secondary you end up over acid. I add acid once its finished fermenting and I rack off the fruit.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## davewaldo

Sounds good Airgead, let me know if you manage to track down any genuine Cider apples in OZ. I've looked for varieties such as Russets (different sorts of russets) but with no luck.

Getting back to ph.... Just like when people are mashing, some have issues with ph others never seem to have any trouble. I guess its down to the various influences of water and ingredients.

However acidity should not be confused with Low ph (although they can go together). Ph is a measurement of the ratio of acid to alkalinity including any buffering effects by other compounds.

Acidity is just the quantity of acid in a solution.

Grape juice can be high in acidity, but due to the buffering compounds in the fruit (this also goes for other fruits) the PH does not seem to drop considerably during fermentation. The small amounts of acid produced during fermentation has little effect on ph because the buffering compounds still exist. Take away those buffering compounds (like in plain mead) and the same small amount of acid can have a large effect on ph.

So PH management is mainly only important for pure meads, those which are just honey and water (and nutrients). Cysers, melomels and pyments are not effected as strongly.

I write all this info mainly for the benifit of new-comers. Airgead, you seem to have everything under control


----------



## leiothrix

davewaldo said:


> However acidity should not be confused with Low ph (although they can go together). Ph is a measurement of the ratio of acid to alkalinity including any buffering effects by other compounds.
> 
> Acidity is just the quantity of acid in a solution.



Just to be pedantic, that's not quite right.

pH is the measure of acid in a solution. p means -log10, so pH is -log10 [H]. A lower number here refers to a higher concentration, and conversely a higher number means a lower concentration.

pOH is how basic a solution is (i.e. the opposite of acid), and refers to the quantity of OH (hydroxide) in solution.

pH + pOH = 14 (well, most of the time. there's always exceptions to everything), and pOH is generally derived from pH.

Alkalinity is the amount of dissolved minerals (in water it's generally calcium and magnesium carbonates) which affects both the pH of the water and its buffering capacity (i.e. the greater the buffer, the greater the ability of the solution to resist a pH change when acid is added).

People often refer to a solution as alkaline when they mean basic. With water this is generally close enough, but whilst they're closely related they're not the same thing.

Hopefully that makes sense . . .

Rob.


----------



## leiothrix

Brewer Pete said:


> The sticker is the recipe is balanced for the US people. Clover honey balancing out the Fleishmann's brand dry yeast. Fleishmann's has an alcohol tolerance of 12% and high flocculation. I have not been able to discover the alc. tol. rates on the Australian brands. What I have dug up is that for a while now all the dry yeast sold in Australia is imported from China no matter what you read on the package in the supermarket. This I think will make my job harder in finding out more details on the yeast strain used.



I made a 1gal batch using the Joe's Ancient Orange recipe, Capilano honey and Tandaco bread yeast.

I think it tastes nice, it's just too damn sweet. I tried adding some EC-1118 to it afterwards, but didn't make too much difference.

I bought some Wyeast dry mead yeast, but haven't gotten around to using it yet.

Also, I'd make a bigger batch than the 1gal/5L. By the time you take samples, rack off the lees and whatever else, you only get 5-6 longnecks out of it. For the effort involved it just seems like a waste. I bought an 11L glass carboy to use for the next batch, effort is only marginally higher, it's not too great a quantity to have turning out average, and you get a bit more of a satisfying bottle count at the end of it.

Rob.


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## JonnyAnchovy

I'm uber skeptical about anything that calls for bread yeast. I'm all for authenticity and anachronism in brewing, but I think its a really long streach to suggest that bread yeast is anything near what they'd be using in 'ancient' times (whatever that means, anyway). Far more likely specific mead yeasts were cultured and used by the brewers, just like we tend to do today.

Why not use a mead/wine yeast? or any specific brewing yeast for that matter? I couldn't bring myself to add bread yeast to such expensive honey!


----------



## AndrewQLD

JonnyAnchovy said:


> I'm uber skeptical about anything that calls for bread yeast. I'm all for authenticity and anachronism in brewing, but I think its a really long streach to suggest that bread yeast is anything near what they'd be using in 'ancient' times (whatever that means, anyway). Far more likely specific mead yeasts were cultured and used by the brewers, just like we tend to do today.
> 
> Why not use a mead/wine yeast? or any specific brewing yeast for that matter? I couldn't bring myself to add bread yeast to such expensive honey!



I made Joes recipe for my first Mead and used Allied bread yeast. And as I said earlier in the thread it tastes great, I was very impressed with the results. I think that the recipe is not just about the yeast, the oranges and raisins add a lot as well and I think it is the blend of all these ingredients that make it so successful.

And sure I think your right, a purpose mead or wine yeast is a better choice than bread yeast for your usual meads but I think you'll find Joes recipe was designed for the beginner to use common ingredients on hand in the kitchen, to brew a simple mead that turns out well without having to add acids and nutrients and to get a good result fairly fast.

Andrew


----------



## pdilley

Yeah I was specifically talking about running the JAO mead recipe.

In addition to JAO I also have Mead recommended yeasts from the LHBS that I have bought for other mead making purposes, but I was meaning to indicate the question was related to the JAO specific recipe, not any other modern mead recipes in general.

I doubt the ancients were balancing PH levels and mucking about with wine yeasts. Nor in a romanticized version where rain entered the hive and drizzled down the tree trunk to collect in a nook where it was warmed by sunlight and god quickly snuck in and sprinkled on some Wyeast Sweet Mead Yeast #4184 when no one was watching then this amber gold was drunk by some passing honey collector.

I've done mead with bread yeast and it works. Although I was at the time in the states and used the same brand in JAO. So I don't have apprehensions as I would coming from another brewing discipline and worrying about straying from the methods I built up there.

I think the key to JAO is the raisins, skins of the fruit have naturally occurring wild yeasts and provide good additional nutrients. Same way you'd go about making a sourdough starter as well (raisins or grape skins provide what is needed).

A short jump back through history the recipes were like:

quoted from a 17th century volume, FROM THE CLOSET OF SIR KENELM DIGBY KNIGHT OPENED
TO MAKE EXCELLENT MEATHE
"To every quart of Honey, take four quarts of water. Put your water in a clean Kettle over the fire, and with a stick take the just measure, how high the water cometh, making a notch, where the superficies toucheth the stick. As soon as the water is warm, put in your Honey, and let it boil, skimming it always, till it be very clean; Then put to every Gallon of water, one pound of the best Blew-raisins of the Sun, first clean picked from the stalks, and clean washed. Let them remain in the boiling Liquor, till they be throughly swollen and soft; Then take them out, and put them into a Hair-bag, and strain all the juice and pulp and substance from them in an Apothecaries Press; which put back into your liquor, and let it boil, till it be consumed just to the notch you took at first, for the measure of your water alone. Then let your Liquor run through a Hair-strainer into an empty Woodden-fat, which must stand endwise, with the head of the upper-end out; and there let it remain till the next day, that the liquor be quite cold. Then Tun it up into a good Barrel, not filled quite full, but within three or four fingers breadth; (where Sack hath been, is the best) and let the bung remain open for six weeks with a double bolter-cloth lying upon it, to keep out any foulness from falling in. Then stop it up close, and drink not of it till after nine months.

This Meathe is singularly good for a Consumption, Stone, Gravel, Weak-sight, and many more things. A Chief Burgomaster of Antwerpe, used for many years to drink no other drink but this; at Meals and all times, even for pledging of healths. And though He were an old man, he was of an extraordinary vigor every way, and had every year a Child, had always a great appetite, and good digestion; and yet was not fat."

Not a mention of pitching yeast, or tossing in fresh leeches thank god! 

I hope the hair bag used in the recipe was cleaned first 

Looks like wild yeasts, highly flocculant muck, filtration, racking, and what we have in common with all meads, aging makes best no matter what the yeast used.


----------



## troublebrewing

Brewer Pete said:


> Then Tun it up into a good Barrel, not filled quite full, but within three or four fingers breadth; (where Sack hath been, is the best) and let the bung remain open for six weeks with a double bolter-cloth lying upon it, to keep out any foulness from falling in. Then stop it up close, and drink not of it till after nine months.



There's your yeast. He's racking straight onto the trub from the last batch of sack mead, plenty of dormant yeasties from the last batch.


----------



## Airgead

Brewer Pete said:


> A short jump back through history the recipes were like:
> 
> quoted from a 17th century volume, FROM THE CLOSET OF SIR KENELM DIGBY KNIGHT OPENED
> TO MAKE EXCELLENT MEATHE



I love Digby. If you look at some of his other recipes though he does specifically pitch yeast and if you look really carefully he classifies ale yeast and beer yeast differently. 



> MY OWN CONSIDERATIONS FOR MAKING OF MEATHE
> 
> Boil what quantity of Spring-water you please, three or four walms, and then let it set the twenty four hours, and pour the clear from the settling. Take sixteen Gallons of the clear, and boil in it ten handfuls of Eglantine-leaves, five of Liverwort, five of Scabious, four of Baulm, four of Rosemary; two of Bay-leaves; one of Thyme, and one of Sweet-marjoram, and five Eringo-roots splitted. When the water hath drawn out the vertue of the herbs (which it will do in half an hours boiling,) let it run through a strainer or sieve, and let it settle so, that you may pour the clear from the Dregs. To every three Gallons of the Clear, take one of Honey, and with clean Arms stripped up, lade it for two or three hours, to dissolve the honey in the water; lade it twice or thrice that day. The next day boil it very gently to make the scum rise, and scum it all the while, and nowPage 20 and then pour to it a ladle full of cold water, which will make the scum rise more: when it is very clear from scum, you may boil it the more strongly, till it bear an Egge very high, that the breadth of a groat be out of the water, and that it boil high with great walms in the middle of the Kettle: which boiling with great Bubbles in the middle is a sign it is boiled to it's height. Then let it cool till it be Lukewarm, at which time put some Ale yest into it, to make it work, as you would do Ale. And then put it up into a fit Barrel first seasoned with some good sweet White-wine (as Canary-sack) and keep the bung open, till it have done working, filling it up with some such honey-drink warmed, as you find it sink down by working over. When it hath almost done working, put into it a bag of thin stuff (such as Bakers use to bolt in) fastened by a Cord at the bung, containing two parts of Ginger-sliced, and one apiece of Cinamon, Cloves and Nutmegs, with a Pebble-stone in it to make it sink; And stop it up close for six Months or a year, and then you may draw it into bottles. If you like Cardamon-seeds, you may adde some of them to the spices. Some do like Mint exceedingly to be added to the other herbs. Where no yeast is to be had, The Liquor will work if you set it some days in the hot Sun (with a cover, like the roof of a house over it, to keep wet out, if it chance to rain) but then you must have great care, to fill it up, as it consumeth, and to stop it close a little before it hath done working, and to set it then presently in a Cool Cellar. I am told that the LeaPage 21ven of bread will make it work as well as yest, but I have not tryed it. If you will not have it so strong, it will be much sooner ready to drink; As if you take six parts of water to one of Honey. Some do like the drink better without either herbs or spices, and it will be much the whiter. If you will have it stronger, put but four Gallons and a half of water to one of honey.
> 
> You may use what Herbs or Roots you please, either for their tast or vertue, after the manner here set down.



So not only pitching yeast but use of an egg as a crude hydrometer...

The recipes certainly aren't consistent, some are definitely wild yeast types but some are more sophisticated. You also have to take into account how they brewed - they re-used barrels for different drinks. A barrel used for mead today may have had a beer fermented in it previously. Most of the beer/ale recipes did call for a pitch of yeast so a beer or ale yeast would have inoculated the barrel and made the mead (and anything else stored in the barrel) ferment. I'm not going to call them consistent, scientific brewers and certainly had no idea what yeast was but they weren't completely clueless.

And for the record - No matter what they did in 1600, I wouldn't recommend using bread yeast for any type of brew.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley

Just caught that one. The acid components of the wilder yeast strains and bacteria seem to be missing form the mono strain culture of yeast used in modern recipes which is why I always turn an eye at all the additions we have to use with them, tannins and acid blends to stabilize, add bitterness and add complexity which seems like a free ride with JAO.


----------



## brettprevans

Got my copy of Compleat Meadmaker by Ken in the post yesterday. my god there's a lot of info in there. more than you or I will ever need. great reading so far. 

actually I also bought designing great beers and brew like a monk. lots of beer/brew related reading for me for a while.


----------



## Airgead

Brewer Pete said:


> Just caught that one. The acid components of the wilder yeast strains and bacteria seem to be missing form the mono strain culture of yeast used in modern recipes which is why I always turn an eye at all the additions we have to use with them, tannins and acid blends to stabilize, add bitterness and add complexity which seems like a free ride with JAO.



I'm not entirely sure historical meads did pick up acid from wild yeasts. If you look at some of the other period sources they make mention of good beer and ale being free of sourness. I suspect they had reliable strains of yeast (although they didn't know this) since around the dark ages. You hear stories about the beer stiring stick that was passed from generation to generation and magically made good beer or mead. What was of course happening was they were stirring each batch with a stick inoculated with a strain of yeast that made good beer. The same goes for re-ucing barrels and even the practice of picthing the new batch on top of the dregs of the last. That way the good strains were perpetuated. You can bet that bad ones were discarded pretty quickly.

They didn't muck around with ph adjustments and such but what they did do was use spices for balance. If you look at pretty much all of the historical recipes you find that they are heavily spiced. That JAO follows that tradition. A lot of mead recipes do - most mels and meths don't need acid as they have the fruit and/or spices. Its really only the straight meads that need them. What people were making back in the day were meths and mels. Not meads (by our modern definition). I suspect that historically there was no such thing as a straight mead. 

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley

Do you know how long the meads were sat between fermentation and consumption? Thats one area I have not found a lot of information on. I did read about the historical ales which were said to taste of "liquid bread" and were consumed within four days of fermenting because they would go sour beyond that time until hopping came into the common knowledge base. I don't have as much interested in making liquid bread though, doesn't sound as tasty as trying to recreate meads.


----------



## newguy

Brewer Pete said:


> Do you know how long the meads were sat between fermentation and consumption? Thats one area I have not found a lot of information on. I did read about the historical ales which were said to taste of "liquid bread" and were consumed within four days of fermenting because they would go sour beyond that time until hopping came into the common knowledge base. I don't have as much interested in making liquid bread though, doesn't sound as tasty as trying to recreate meads.



I've made 2. The first was drinkable from bottling on and didn't really improve much over time. I think it was in the fermenter around 2-3 months. The one I have on the go now was made just before new year's and it is almost clear now. I withdrew enough to fill a 650ml bottle to take to a friend's place for supper last Saturday and it was enjoyed by all. I plan to bottle it as soon as it clears, which should be quite soon - 1 or 2 weeks probably. I'll have to report back from time to time to let you know how it's holding up.


----------



## Airgead

Brewer Pete said:


> Do you know how long the meads were sat between fermentation and consumption? Thats one area I have not found a lot of information on. I did read about the historical ales which were said to taste of "liquid bread" and were consumed within four days of fermenting because they would go sour beyond that time until hopping came into the common knowledge base. I don't have as much interested in making liquid bread though, doesn't sound as tasty as trying to recreate meads.



Best research I can find indicates that they were drunk young but not while still fermenting. Think English real ale and you are probably pretty much on the money. Fermented in the cask. naturally carbonated in the cask and served in the cask. Probably cloudy when served as rolling the casks up from the cellar would have mixed the yeast back in (think coopers or a heffe). That would account for the liquid bread description. It is likely that a cask would be emptied over a small number of nights and the beer was probably made locally (probably on site0 and consumed pretty quickly. They didn't start warehousing it for distribution till the 1700s.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley

Bringing it back to Mead 


I'm heading out tomorrow to pick up some bulk honey.

Will be picking up some Stringy Bark, and then when the hives come in and packing starts in the next couple weeks go back and pick up some Iron Bark which is used by one of the packers to make his own meads.

I'll give JAO some of the Stringy and see how it goes. I'll need some more airlocks to get all four of my carboys in operation at once but then I have a collection of baker style yeasts from all over the world and some Vinters Harvest Premium Wine Yeast SN9 (came with high recommendation for mead use from the LHBS) to do my mad mead experiments with.

Hope to have enough puff after tomorrows big list of errands to start one or two off, if I'm feeling crazy I'll see about setting off four carboys worth of mead by the end of the weekend.

Cheers Guys,

Brewer Pete


----------



## Bribie G

Airgead said:


> Best research I can find indicates that they were drunk young but not while still fermenting. Think English real ale and you are probably pretty much on the money. ........................................
> Cheers
> Dave



Until the Industrial Revolution barley was malted and dried over wood fires, then coke was invented for steel production and steam-raising and quickly became adapted to malting. So most malt would have been brown and rauch-bier ish no doubt. There wouldn't have been much of a need to serve it clear. However their system of brewing was quite different to ours, they did a parti-gyle brew without sparging. The first mash would yield a strong ale for getting pissd purposes and the second mash would give the 'small beer' that most people quaffed on all day, same as tea and coffee nowadays. Stopped them getting dysentery as well. 

The stronger beer would have been kept for quite a while, in fact up till the 20th century there was still a category called 'keeping beer'. Our current bitters or 'running beers' are quite recent.

However the small beer would certainly have been quickly drunk.

ON TOPIC

My Braggott is finally looking like it's due for secondary then bottling a couple of weeks later and I'll be getting my first sneaky taste test on Monday at this stage.
Will report.
:icon_cheers:

Edit: doubt if it wll be ready for the March BABBs meeting, prolly April.


----------



## pdilley

Feeling rather Off and On today 

OT is that keeping beer the one they'd mix with the new beer to create custom blends in house in the Pubs?


Back on Topic:

If anyone is interested in useless Honey Fact #252

Honey is roughly 1.4 Kilograms per 1 Litre or 4 Metric cups.


----------



## pdilley

Feeling a bit jazzed, after spending some free time reading up on yeast strains turns out bakers yeast is simply an Ale yeast. Same scientific species categorization. Also makes sense why all the diaramas of ancient Egyptian bakeries showed a common shared wall and the other side was the brewery, they are using the same yeast. Also makes sense why the barm (foam or scum) on top of fermenting beer can be and is used for leavening bread; nonwithsanding the English term barmy for someone who's head is full of foam and no room for brains. Just checked all the bakers yeasts I have in the cupboard and they all are listed as the ale yeast. That's probaly why JAO turns out just fine for everyone and maybe that's what's in those anonymous yeast packs under the lid of the kit tin. -- been reading the late yeast master Dr. George Fix's papers on yeast.


----------



## pdilley

Now the proud parent of two new children.

May I introduce to the world two new members of my family,

Stringy Bark 1 Clove JAO
and
Stringy Bark 2 Clove JAO




Both are going to sleep now, will let them rest for a while in the darnk and see how they develop with saccharomyces cerevisiae getting to know the local fruits. With the next two I'll try to put in fresh grapes off of my grape vine to get some additional natural yeasts in the mix as very minor players in the ferment. I was aiming to keep 1 Clove down to 1.5 kilos and 2 clove at 1.6, but 1 cloves measure came more to 1.55 kilos of stringy. 2 clove came to 3.81 liters while 1 clove managed a lower 3.8.

But a parent loves their kids no matter how they are. Word is also Iron Bark is on the way by months end so I may have two more children at this rate for a big happy family brood of four.


Looks like I made it just in time for the thunder god Thor to send his greetings through the sky.




Down below is an example of a what a JAO mead racked off into a secondary and glowing like crazy looks like.


----------



## Airgead

BribieG said:


> Until the Industrial Revolution barley was malted and dried over wood fires, then coke was invented for steel production and steam-raising and quickly became adapted to malting. So most malt would have been brown and rauch-bier ish no doubt.



:icon_offtopic: 

Back off topic again...

Actually, most malt was dried on a straw fire. The reason being that it gave less smoke taint than a wood fire. The old books say to pick malt that is sweet and free of the taint of smoke (and that's going back to the 1600s). It was brown though. I made a batch of beer using home made brown malt and it came out like a dark English Brown (strangely enough).

Coke (and a different type of kiln that firing with coke allowed them to build) allowed them to make pale malt.

On the mead side again, now that I have my barleywine in the fermenter I'll be putting down some meads next weekend. I'll do a raspberry mel. One with the fruit added to the secondary, one to the primary to see what the difference in fruit character is.

Stay tuned...

Cheers
Dave


----------



## JonnyAnchovy

Brewer Pete said:


> View attachment 25428



:icon_drool2: - are they all 5 gal? i've got some serious glass envy!


----------



## barls

Brewer Pete said:


> View attachment 25428
> 
> looks like my front room ive got 2 different cysers sitting on raspberries and blackberries


----------



## pdilley

Hehe.. Carboys are so North America! 

I'm building up a I've moved back to Oz gear setup, but this time with demijohns. Handles on the built-in plastic basket make lifting easier than a carboy, and easier to share to load when someone gives you a hand one to a handle. Things cost more here so I've pretty much used my tax rebate and have to wait for another year or two to expand. I'll wait until next year to expand. Once I saw what you guys are forced to pay for stainless I almost fell over in the grave 

This is my current setup. 4 5's, 2 34's and a 25. 


Oh and a 15 kilo bucket of honey fresh from the farm for one and only cameo appearance.

Missing from the photo is my one and only foray into plastic, the 32? for beer and bottling and bathtubs.




I'm thinking of using the 5's a lot more than intended or perhaps pick up some more next time the government has a cash splash as I would rather do lots of little batches to adjust recipes, experiment and try new things without running a full batch. That way I can be a lot more batches under the belt when drinking isn't the priority and get up to speed again after a 12+ year hiatus. If you think about it, splitting up even your beer brewing into smaller batches makes it easier to handle brew days as you're dealing with 1/4 the weight and materials, if you are a tin person you can split a tin(s) 4 ways. A contamination will effect 1/4 the brew. You get to adjust 4 different recipe variations you were thinking about in one go and taste the results. If you brew 6 plastic fermenters in x amount of time, now you get 24 brews done, each can vary out what you want to modify. Once you find something you like you can take it up to the normal scale 20-23 litres or higher knowing what to expect. Brew in a single wine bottle if you want to rack up lots of experiments in one go to cut your time down considerably.


On Topic:
Mead Podcasts and Video Podcasts - FREE

- Brew Bubbas Radio - BB Episode #60 Making Mead

- Basic Brewing Video - 03-21-07 Basic Brewing Video - Tasting the Mead Yeast Experiment
- Basic Brewing Video - 02-27-07 Basic Brewing Video - The Mead Yeast Experiment Begins
- Basic Brewing Video - 12-27-06 Basic Brewing Video - Mead Update and Small Batches
- Basic Brewing Video - 04-09-06 Basic Brewing Video - Making Mead

- TBN Presents - The Jamil Show - Mead - The Jamil Show 12-01-08


----------



## davewaldo

Airgead said:


> On the mead side again, now that I have my barleywine in the fermenter I'll be putting down some meads next weekend. I'll do a raspberry mel. One with the fruit added to the secondary, one to the primary to see what the difference in fruit character is.
> 
> Stay tuned...
> 
> Cheers
> Dave




Sounds great, keep us informed.


----------



## pdilley

davewaldo said:


> I check the ph everyday for the first few days at the same time as I'm aerating. I have a cheap digital PH meter, and I think its great! Very quick and easy. After the 1/3 sugar break I check it every second or third day...



If you're dealing with the 1/3 sugar break it sounds like you are using Ken Schramms method. If you are doing a turbo ferment have you run into run into a foam volcano while decarbonating?

Who's PH meter do you have. I have to start looking around for one myself so I can put this honey through full attenuation with a variety of yeasts in a pure water/honey mead mix to see what it is capable of and I think I'll shoot for a PH of 4 and let it drop to about 3.8.

If you are using Shramms, are you rehydrating in a cake pan with 20 grams of Go-Ferm at 40C?

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## pdilley

One of the older and more respected mead resources on the net:
Hightest's Honey Haven


One of the more technical brewers who devised his own fruit sugar content spreadsheet to aid in brewing meads back when there was little to go on. If you love technicals you'll love hightest's site chock full of goodies.


----------



## pdilley

Before I forget, Bentonite can be used to clear a mead, but from TBN Radio I heard of heated honey (quick microwave to clear/dissolve the candied bits) pitched in a cloudy cider and the cider cleared in 15 minutes.


Refractometers: These things. Instead of hydrometers if you want accuracy and versatility.




They are made in China, and you really have to shop around for them. You can buy them for $35-50USD In the states. One company imports them from China and sells them from California. Be warned that I have seen some vendors in Australia trying to sell these for $150+ AUD. All this is the same RHB32-ATC Model. Its up to you to buy direct from China or from a reseller in USA or local. Depends on how much money you are willing to part with to get the same exact unit.

Two groups of refractometers that would be very good for working with Honey and with Wines/Meads:

Group #1: For Honey Work

RHB-90 ATC
Measuring range: Brix: 58-90% Baume: 38-43Be'water: 12-27%
Resolution: Brix: 0.5% Baume: 0.5Be' water: 1%
Compensation temperature range: 10C-30C
Calibration: Calibration liquid
ATC = (Automatic Temperature Compensation) for accurate measurements without recalibration after shifts in ambient working temperature.

The three common indexes are sugar content, baume and water content







Group#2 for Wort/Must work:

RHB-40 ATC
Measuring range: 0-25%VOL 0-40%Brix
Resolution: Brix: 0.2%VOL 0.2%Brix
Compensation temperature range: 10C-30C
Calibration: zero calibration with water at 20C

It is specially designed for measuring the sugar content of the original grape juice, that helps the manufacturer of wine to control the mature period of grape before harvesting. The model can directly and approximately read out the alcohol degrees of the grape wine made by the original juice. 






RHB-32 ATC
Measuring range: 0-32% Brix.
Accuracy : +/-0.20% Brix.
Compensation temperature range: 10C-30C
Calibration: zero calibration with water at 20C

Beer & Wine: Use the Brix readings to get your wort sugars and help to determine your finished alcohol readings.


----------



## davewaldo

Hi Brewer Pete,

I do have to be careful when degassing that I don't get foam out the top. It hasn't been much of an issue for me though. I'm just careful and take it slowly. I'm thinking of doing my primary fermentations in pail style fermenters (instead of carboys) so I have more head room for foam during the early stages. I would then rack to secondary as usual after a couple of weeks. I give the carboys a good swirl everyday so I don't let the CO2 build to dramatically.

The PH meter I use is a cheap one from eBay. The pen style ones are easy to use and quite cheap. You should do some reading about proper care for PH meters. They should be stored in a "storage solution" and not in buffer solution. With proper care the probe should last a year, so it might be worth looking for a unit with replaceable probes.

I rehydrate as recommended by the manufacturer Lallemand. 1.25g of GoFerm per gram of yeast used, with about 50-100ml water at 38 degrees. See this PDF for lots of info about yeast nutrients with Lalleman yeasts.

I've thought about getting a refractometer, but whether or not you think its worth it is up to personal preference. If you're doing small batches its probably a good idea as you don't lose as much must to samples. However a refractometer becomes harder to use once fermentation begins (you need to use it in conjunction with correction software), and tasting hydro samples as you go can be a really good thing (and educational).

Whether you go technical, or basic, I think doing lots of batches and practising different recipes is most important to designing/making great mead.


----------



## pdilley

Shramm in an interview also recommends rehydrating in a large surface area dish like a cake tin. I don't have his book so I am not sure if he mentions anything about it in there.

Reiterating, you only need 2 drops on average to do a reading with the refractometer with only 3mL of wort/must removed to do a reading so good for small batches or for someone constantly reading throughout a fermentation. The con counter balance point is you need to learn a bit more about how to use it than the hydrometer.

Reposting here from above link regarding refractometer:

Refractometer off-calibration causes (check with distilled water) 
1) Moisture on prism 
2) Prism residue (insufficiently cleaned) 
3) Entrained moisture in refractometer sample 
4) Entrained gas in hydrometer sample 
5) Bad, or damaged, refractometer 
6) Refractometer stored in a moisture laden environment 
7) Uncorrected sample reading containing EtOH 
8) Using a refractometer designed to measure something other than sucrose (there are several types of refractometers, salinity, urine, aquarium, etc.)

A good refractometer sampling process: 
1) Sanitize a 12cc syringe & the sample extension tubing (3/16"dia. rigid plastic x 8) 
2) Remove as much moisture as possible - operate the syringe plunger to blow-out any excess moisture 
3) Draw a 3 ml sample 
4) Discharge the sample into a filter paper lined funnel 
5) Allow the sample to filter through to a collection jar 
6) Using the 0.2 ml pipette, draw a small sample - use pipette once and then discard. 
7) Deposit 2 drops on the prism and read the result. 
8) Read & record the result from the scale 
9) Clean & dry-off the prism



All the calculations are done for you and simplified in hightests mead spreadsheet file. It is a Excel file but if you use Mac it should open just fine in Apple's Numbers spreadsheet program (or at least it does for me!).


----------



## davewaldo

Good info, thanks Pete!


----------



## Airgead

Brewer Pete said:


> Shramm in an interview also recommends rehydrating in a large surface area dish like a cake tin. I don't have his book so I am not sure if he mentions anything about it in there.



Any idea why? I wouldn't have thought that surface area would have much impact on rehydrating yeast. Is he looking for extra oxygen uptake? I would have thought that shaking or using a stir plate would do more for that than a large surface area.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley

Airgead said:


> Any idea why? I wouldn't have thought that surface area would have much impact on rehydrating yeast. Is he looking for extra oxygen uptake? I would have thought that shaking or using a stir plate would do more for that than a large surface area.



The reason is 100% recapture of the yeasts left alive in the mix of dry dead/living yeasts. He would not like to hear about stirring of any sort involved. Dry yeast have shrivelled and stressed cellular walls that no longer function properly at filtering. They will take in toxins as readily as food and kill themselves until they are in a fully rehydrated state and additionally there membranes have healed and strengthened. That means absolutely no nutrients during rehydration. It's GoFerm in non-distilled water and absolutely nothing else. No stirring means you need large surface area to get h2o contact with no stiring. Temp must be 104F at dry pitch and 20 minutes before pitching to must with up to 30 minutes allowed before the sub optimum happens - yeasties run out of stored energy and switch state. Just pitching into a 25C must from that temp will kill off 40% of the survivors of rehydration!

The goal is not to pitch few yeast or yeast in the incorrect metabolic states that would lead to off flavoura an a non clean ferment. Throws the common ideas about pitching dry yeasts on it's head.

The other misnomer around yeasts is the cambdrn tablets kill yeasts and stop fermentation. Tho is incorrect, yeast have a generic switch to go from metabolic state to another in their life cycle. This only glues the switch into the off state for switching to fermentation but won't affect the ones already getting down and funky into reproduction so you won't get 100% effect I you do it at the wrong point in the fermentation cycle.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## pdilley

Airgead said:


> Any idea why? I wouldn't have thought that surface area would have much impact on rehydrating yeast. Is he looking for extra oxygen uptake? I would have thought that shaking or using a stir plate would do more for that than a large surface area.



The reason is 100% recapture of the yeasts left alive in the mix of dry dead/living yeasts. He would not like to hear about stirring of any sort involved. Dry yeast have shrivelled and stressed cellular walls that no longer function properly at filtering. They will take in toxins as readily as food and kill themselves until they are in a fully rehydrated state and additionally there membranes have healed and strengthened. That means absolutely no nutrients during rehydration. It's GoFerm in non-distilled water and absolutely nothing else. No stirring means you need large surface area to get h2o contact with no stiring. Temp must be 104F at dry pitch and 20 minutes before pitching to must with up to 30 minutes allowed before the sub optimum happens - yeasties run out of stored energy and switch state. Just pitching into a 25C must from that temp will kill off 40% of the survivors of rehydration!

The goal is not to pitch few yeast or yeast in the incorrect metabolic states that would lead to off flavoura an a non clean ferment. Throws the common ideas about pitching dry yeasts on it's head.

The other misnomer around yeasts is the cambdrn tablets kill yeasts and stop fermentation. Tho is incorrect, yeast have a generic switch to go from metabolic state to another in their life cycle. This only glues the switch into the off state for switching to fermentation but won't affect the ones already getting down and funky into reproduction so you won't get 100% effect I you do it at the wrong point in the fermentation cycle.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Airgead

Brewer Pete said:


> The reason is 100% recapture of the yeasts left alive in the mix of dry dead/living yeasts. He would not like to hear about stirring of any sort involved. Dry yeast have shrivelled and stressed cellular walls that no longer function properly at filtering. They will take in toxins as readily as food and kill themselves until they are in a fully rehydrated state and additionally there membranes have healed and strengthened. That means absolutely no nutrients during rehydration. It's GoFerm in non-distilled water and absolutely nothing else. No stirring means you need large surface area to get h2o contact with no stiring. Temp must be 104F at dry pitch and 20 minutes before pitching to must with up to 30 minutes allowed before the sub optimum happens - yeasties run out of stored energy and switch state. Just pitching into a 25C must from that temp will kill off 40% of the survivors of rehydration!



Ahh gotcha.

I do it the other way - I make up a starter a few days beforehand and grow the yeast up (usually from slants but sometimes from dry). All I need is one surviving cell from rehydration and I can make enough healthy yeast to ferement. Working from slants I usually pitch into 5m then step up to 25 after 24 hours then up to 125ml then to 1l for a 20l batch. Takes me 4 days but I find it gives me very reliable fermentations (for both mead and beer). From dry I'll pitch a teaspoon or so into 1l of must at 1.040 to get things started then pitch that into 20l after a day or two. For my 5l batches I'll use a 125ml starter.

And I was the one who said I like to keep things simple...

Cheers
Dave


----------



## davewaldo

Airgead said:


> And I was the one who said I like to keep things simple...



:lol:


----------



## Airgead

davewaldo said:


> :lol:



In my defence it does mean that I haven't had to buy yeast in about 5 years.

Except for one pack of wyeast cider last year but thats in the yeast farm now so I don't need to buy that one ever again...

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley

Airgead said:


> In my defence it does mean that I haven't had to buy yeast in about 5 years.
> 
> Except for one pack of wyeast cider last year but thats in the yeast farm now so I don't need to buy that one ever again...




With mead you spend up to 30 minutes in the kitchen but can spend tons of attention in the yeast starter, 4 stage nutrient addition with 82% up to 1/3 sugar break and lots of beating the c**p out of the must and lots of fermentation monitoring if you wish during the fermentation stages-- if you so desire -- contrasting to making beer where you can spend all day working on the wort but then pitch the yeasb and forget it till done.

I have to get up to speed on and start yeast farming because to date I apwas build up a starter and pitch that as my style -- just that I normally discard the trub when done doing the vigorous clean immediately after racking phase. If I farmed I could spend the savings on acquiring more strains of yeast to the collection.


----------



## pdilley

If anyone is shopping around, the best price I have found is on ebay Australia.

Original prices quoted in British Pounds, but works out to be

*Bees Honey Refractometer 58-90% Brix*
$26.33 for old style with screwdriver calibration adjustor
$29.08 for new style with finger knurl knob to adjust calibration

*Wine Alcohol Grape Refractometer 0-25%VOL 0-40% Brix*
$26.97 for old style with screwdriver calibration adjustor
$29.07 for new style with finger knurl knob to adjust calibration

*Brix Refractometer 0-32% Fruit Juice Wine Sugar*
$26.75 for old style with screwdriver calibration adjustor
$28.86 for new style with finger knurl knob to adjust calibration

I can not vouch for the seller as it is eBay. But I can say I will most likely be ordering one or two from them. The link to the seller so you can see all the items in the store is below:
EasyLifeProduct, a Seller from HK selling Refractometers

You can search all of eBay and see the same items sold over and over at various prices.
You can search Amazon and see the same items sold for $115 Australian (80 USDollars) to $217 Australian (150 USDollars)

Its all up to you what you want to pay, its the same bloody unit  Now imagine the price difference on other items you buy locally compared to buying close to the source over in China direct 

P.S. PH Meters start from $20 and top out about $40 for small pen type hand held digital units.


----------



## pdilley

back to JAO I have to say the fermentation smell is heavenly the way the aromas all meld together -- I have to force my head out of the closet I ferment in so I can shut the door but I don't want to! It is very yummy!

Slightly OT I'm bitten by the DIY bug so Im seriously considerng building my own stir plate from parts around the house and picking up an erleynmeyer flask or two and stirbar and do some serious yeast farming, cataloging and freezing up a nice library.


----------



## Ronin

Just a question, does anyone know where I can get my hands on some mead in melbourne? Was at Purvis on the weekend and they don't stock it, doesn't move fast enough.

I've had some ages ago, but I'd like to try some again, good or bad.

And can the moderators move this thread to the "non-beer brewing" forum? It'd make it a bit easier to find.

Thanks,

James


----------



## KingPython

Dan Murphys will have Maxwell but apparently it's trash. For the $12 it costs you can make your own. Following some basic advice but no recipe. I made mine about 5 litres, 1kg of Aldi honey, bakers yeast, and some old hops. Feel halfway between being a prison brewer and a Viking.


----------



## pdilley

Ronin said:


> Just a question, does anyone know where I can get my hands on some mead in melbourne? Was at Purvis on the weekend and they don't stock it, doesn't move fast enough.



Sickly sweet Spiced Maxwells can be had at Queen Victoria Market, there's a wine section in the food section on the walk in. They also have non-spiced and they have a small bottle of Mead Liquor or Mead Brandy or whatever you want to call it.

In ACT you get it in the bottle shops.

I only get it for SWMBO a few times a year. Making my own so I don't have to buy it again. Once my JAO is done, and my TCMM book arrives I plan to get 64 liters or more of Mead on the go in the first large batch. Following the advice of make your mead plain in the primary then blend it into fruits, spices, or chocolate (yes there is chocolate mead!) or whatever in the secondary/during aging. JAO is for kicks and to bring memories back of the first brew I ever did, a similar Mead w/ Bakers Yeast (Ale Yeast).

I want to do a small batch as well bone dry with a champagne yeast and then carbonate in the glass to serve champagne style in flutes with sliced fresh strawberry.


----------



## AndrewQLD

Ronin said:


> Just a question, does anyone know where I can get my hands on some mead in melbourne? Was at Purvis on the weekend and they don't stock it, doesn't move fast enough.
> 
> And can the moderators move this thread to the "non-beer brewing" forum? It'd make it a bit easier to find.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> James




Done.

Andrew


----------



## chappo1970

Chad said:


> Chappo, I will try to remember to bring a bottle to the March meeting for you to try, and another in a few meetings after that.



Chad,
Thanks for bringing a bottle along last night at the BABBS meeting I really enjoyed it. :beerbang: Actually to be honest I'm hooked. There is a lot complex flavours in mead and going by Chad's example well worth the effort. I really am going to have to get some reading material shortly. The problem is now I really really need to get into it and hopefully repay the favour in 2years time hehe!


----------



## pdilley

Welcome on board Chappo,

Meads are fun, great aromas, good taste and a bit more versatile than with grapes as wine categories are pretty much defined and there is not a whole lot a home brewer can add in that space. There is no roadmap to methods or styles such as with beer either. You can be sickly sweet to bone dry. Still to sparkling. Basic to complex in ingredients and flavours. Just about anything you can think of can be an ingredient and quite a few you've never thought of!

Mead needs respect like wines unless you wish to find yourself really regretting over indulgence and wondering what you got up to the night before 

I have some plans for champagne mead, raspberry melomel (fruits in the secondary), trying to find a Polish recipe that's complex and with vanilla bean, the ancient orange cinnamon and clove JAOs should be aged by then. The Polish are supposed to have a very long uninterrupted history of mead always being available in the shops unlike the rest of the Western countries where only now its starting to make a small comeback.

Once I get time to try apple juice from aldi I want to post the apfelwein recipe here as the yanks have made over 10,000+ gallons of it on their brewing forum and it's simpler or as simple as a basic mead recipe to make and see how many liters we can collectively brew over here if it takes off among members.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete

PS Meads can take as long as 6-12 months fermentation if you follow traditional methods. If you follow Kens method I. The Compleat Meadmaker book then you can get fermentation down to 5-7 days and bulk aging down to 2-3 months although you'll be controversial  I only have reports and interviews to go on until my book arrives to see the exact published method put down in writing  -- see the yeast 1/3 sugar break post for the basic ideas and how different it really is for traditionalist to make people wonder it is legit as an actual method. Once I get my scales, refractometer and gear from overseas in the next 7-12 days (hopefully sooner depending on the Post) I'll do a 5-7 day fermentation batch using native Australian honeys.


----------



## Chad

Chappo said:


> Thanks for bringing a bottle along last night at the BABBS meeting I really enjoyed it. :beerbang:


No problem. As I mentioned, it was a while since I tasted that batch and it wasn't that crash hot last time I did. But it was good to see it improving greatly after a few more months, and to get some other reviews.

What's really cool is that my partner has sourced an unlimited supply of free honey  for me through someone at her work, so I have plenty more batches lined up ready to do.


----------



## pdilley

57 liter primary for turbo brews. Marked for few inches gap from top of lip of my 34 and 25 liter demijohns for long term secondary with no O2 issues. Actuals will be below the line.

Tip from BribieG had me find this at Bunnings, with wheels, $12.




Marked up with rough liquid line levels.



Still need scales and refractometer and then I'll be putting 34 Liters of liquid gold goodness through this and fill up both 34 liters with mead that will be done in 2-3 months.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete

P.S. Apple Juice is for an Apfelwein recipe experiment, though I'm just using it to back-sweeten the Black Rock cider for SWMBO which is bottled and aging. Bottles already used yesterday for Roach Smasher Ale which is carbing up as we speak.


----------



## chappo1970

Wow never mind storage container BUT that's one big funnel you have there BP! h34r: (Never thought I would say that to another Brewer?)

Loving SWMBO picked up 5kg's each of Orange Blossum and Napunya for me this morning from the markets. $5/kg BTW. I'm thinking I really need to get at least 2 glass demijons to start with. Simple question: Suggested size 34 or 54lt and narrow 40mm or wide mouth 120mm? Not fussed on cost just the right gear to do the job.


----------



## Chad

I'm currently putting down an 11L sack mead, which will be fortified later on, and then split into two batches and one will have some light french oak added. Starting gravity is 1.130.
I've been having some attenuation issues with the past few batches, but after listening to the Jamil Show episode on mead, I have a few tricks to try out. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## pdilley

The really wide mouth demijohns are really for making your own olives in brine. My 34's are purely for use as bulk aging secondaries. If you are going to follow The Compleat Meadmaker book then you want a plastic bucket or use a plastic beer barrel style fermenter if you can't come to terms with a storage container as your primary. The reason is you will get heavy foaming in the first few days and a narrow top means am explosive volcano waiting to happen. That's why I don't have an issue with the storage either. No needs to worry about airlocks with this method. The must will only be in the primary for 5-7 days on the norm or 2 weeks tops on the slow end before racking into glass for a 2-3 month aging in bulk before bottling. I'll be working with the primary already at table level so no lifting of the primary is involved and a simple gravity siphon to the 34's is all that's required.

Low ABV ale/bakers yeast meads like JAO don't foam anything much but a little thin layer.

Already getting some recipes for Lavender Mead ready. Most of my plans so far are for 7-14 days pure mead in the primary with all the fruits, spices, etc taking place in the secondary.

The JAMIL Show on mead is great. That's kens methods and that 1/3rd sugar break that's a bit contraversial for some. Brew Bubbas Show had a carry on interview related to mead. Check it out!

I'm also working with hightest, the infamous mead making engineer mentioned on the show during the interview, I've posted some of his instructions and pointers in the 1/3rd Sugar Break post that's in this forum.


----------



## Airgead

Brewer Pete said:


> 57 liter primary for turbo brews. Marked for few inches gap from top of lip of my 34 and 25 liter demijohns for long term secondary with no O2 issues. Actuals will be below the line.
> 
> Tip from BribieG had me find this at Bunnings, with wheels, $12.
> View attachment 25779
> 
> 
> Marked up with rough liquid line levels.
> View attachment 25781
> 
> 
> Still need scales and refractometer and then I'll be putting 34 Liters of liquid gold goodness through this and fill up both 34 liters with mead that will be done in 2-3 months.



Are you sure them things are food grade? have a few of them for storing grain but I'm not sure I'd ferment in one. I don't think they are HDPE.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley

Airgead said:


> Are you sure them things are food grade? have a few of them for storing grain but I'm not sure I'd ferment in one. I don't think they are HDPE.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave



Good catch, no 2 symbol so its unknown for now. Will have to fire off a email to the reseller. They can be lined with food grade plastic, but it is going to be less hassle to find a 2 stamped container. If seeking liners then water tank liners are available in polyethelene.

Neither is any of the plastic items from the LHBS for that matter, the wort stirrer spoon is marked Made in Australia, but that is it. Only the 30L fermenter is HDPE "2" symbol stamped.


----------



## Airgead

Brewer Pete said:


> Good catch, no 2 symbol so its unknown for now. Will have to fire off a email to the reseller. They can be lined with food grade plastic, but it is going to be less hassle to find a 2 stamped container. If seeking liners then water tank liners are available in polyethelene.
> 
> Neither is any of the plastic items from the LHBS for that matter, the wort stirrer spoon is marked Made in Australia, but that is it. Only the 30L fermenter is HDPE "2" symbol stamped.



Not that HDPE is the only food grade plastic of course. PET and a few others are as well but as they are generally more expensive (non porous, non leaching etc) they only get used for food grade applications. I'm pretty sure those storage containers are made out of pretty cheap plastic. OK for storing grain but I'd hate to think what they would leach into a liquid stored in them. You'd also have to be careful adding anything hot to them as I doubt they are heat stable either.

Bunnings have some pretty big water containers that would do the job. I use their 25l as fermenters but they make 30+l ones as well. I think I've seen up to 60l if you want something with lots of head space.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## pdilley

Those bunnings fermenters  I walked my bunnings twice looking for them, even the pool section. I'd be looking for something in the 45+ liter range and most of the posts only mentioned 20 liters brig available (red lids). Which aisle or section had the larger capacity containers.

I've checked the container mfg as a backup, they have square buckets up to 113 liters although square to pack on palletes better, all food grade.

I'm striclty a no-boil guy when it comes to honey musts so heat is not an issue. No boil on the apfelwein must either. Heating is so far only related to beer worts.


----------



## hairofthedog

Hi all ive just put down a small brew of mead have a look at the recipe & tell me what you think oviously hoey inspired

3.5 lts water
1.5 kgs orange blossom honey
5 gms coriander seed boiled for 5 min
2 cumquates boiled for 5 min
5 gms halletua aroma 7%aa boiled 15 min
0.5 wirlfloc boiled for 5 min


----------



## Bribie G

SWMBO's art group have been using one of those cubes for years to mix up punch (alco) for art gallery exhibition openings .. they are great because they can use it to store catering stuff between exhibitions. They clean up perfectly sweet and nobody has karked it on the punch yet so I would give them the food grade tick IMHO.

As I mentioned to Pete in a PM, I'm going to get one and convert it into a two level Yorkshire Square to ferment Yorkshire Bitters and Milds using 1469 in its native environment during the cooler months coming up and quite confident that it will do the job.


----------



## pdilley

Well I am inside bunnings localy right now.

No containers in garden section.

Bmw 25liters are hidden in this stores outdoor section right with the outdoor gravel and garden rocks -- where else!

The food and even fish plastic buckets made in Thailand, New Zealand, China they all have 'NO' markings at all on the plastic. Only the USA manufactured containers have the 2 stamp and their food containers have the 5 stamp instead with PP as the plastic -- same marking and abbr. On the small plastic rubbish bins mind you 

Rain water tank section has 120l bin marked for outdoor use only.

Only other options are 200l and 600l rain tanks -- that's a lot of mead!

Out of fan controllers here -- perhaps a tradey got em all or just lazy restock staff.

Didn't buy anything . Took photos though of tags.


----------



## mash head

Ive just started reading this thread very interesting. Since I have done some bee keeping and my inlaws own a honey based tourist shop (where we have mead which is made on contact by Maxwells which I dont particularly like but it sells well ) I feel I have 2 cents to add. I know that beer brewers avoid eucaliptus honey because of the tannins so for beer a clover, canola, maccadamia ect honey would be best but mead is obviously different. Honey deffinately can be a vector for dissease with many bans on the spread of honey for just this reason.( eg you can not take honey to WA or bring it here to Kangaroo Island because our bees are dissease free) so basically I am saying that some sort of pasturisation is a must. I hope this helps and no offence at bagging maxwells I just prefer BEER. Cheers Greg


----------



## pdilley

Roving reporter now in supermarket, all juice containers marked 1 PETE

Water tops out at 15 liter containers


Spent my money on coffee and milk  on sale 15 a kilo if buy two Harris coffee bags, milk marked 2 on bottom

Interesting day of plastic though at this rate I go back to my overseas glass only mentality and get a wide mouthed olive demi: glass won't stain or scratch as easily, treated right lasts a lifetime.

Ps made it home to find all my HK orders of digital scales and refractometer both arrived today! I'm now in business jus need to get DAP, Fermaid K, Goferm and a wide mouthed 50+ liter primary and it's high volume mead city in no time 2-3 month cycles from begnning to end. Still plan to age some 6m, 1y and more to experiment with aging improvement.


----------



## pdilley

hairofthedog said:


> Hi all ive just put down a small brew of mead have a look at the recipe & tell me what you think oviously hoey inspired
> 
> 3.5 lts water
> 1.5 kgs orange blossom honey
> 5 gms coriander seed boiled for 5 min
> 2 cumquates boiled for 5 min
> 5 gms halletua aroma 7%aa boiled 15 min
> 0.5 wirlfloc boiled for 5 min




Sounds like you are going to be dialed in for an Ale tasting mead. If you don't get enough ale taste brew the next batch as a braggot with malt xtract added as well. Sounds yum, but I've not done ale/hop styles yet to know the taste well.


----------



## pdilley

greg simons said:


> Ive just started reading this thread very interesting...



Welcome aboard greg! Honey also has natural antibacterial and antiviral properties so I am reasonably confident the WA ban is not wanting any honey born bee-to-bee diseases to be potentially passed along. WA has very strict any food quarantines in place. In the middle of nowhere halfway out of Alice Springs you'll meet a guy out in the middle of nowhere all stationed up at the side of the road ready to pinch all your fruit and any other WA quarantine items 

Most of the current mead books have gone off the boil for a little play at pun. TMCC and the commercial meadery in the JAMIL/Brew Brothers radio interviews are now all no boil must methods.

Eucalyptus honeys get a bad rap from some from imparting a medicinal taste to meads however that said out here at the massive honey farm and packing plant one of the honey guys makes his meads exclusively from Iron Bark honey.

Lighter honeys have less nutrients than darker honeys so if you want a dry, no taste champagne style mead to do sparkling then I'd start with a lighter honey. If you want any honey flavors or aromas then darker honeys (and no boil is important for residual aromas and flavours).

Stressed yeasts put of SO2 (elephant farts) and stuck fermentations. This is because the must is not amended for proper growth and metabolism of the yeast cells (no amendment methods and little amendment methods.) This is why you have 6 month to a year to get an "old school" mead fermented and then years in the bottle aging to get a mead at its peak. Ken's method is a touch controversial but the basis is all amendments are to create a "perfect" environment for the yeasts optimum growth as their metabolism can peak at as the #1 priority, and the rest is secondary. A healthy must will ferment out in the same time as beer and slightly longer to bulk age before consumption. 1-2 weeks primary fermentation, 2-3 months aging before consumption. Once I start myself I'll have first hand experience, but the idea is by a year aging you'll have meads peaked in their prime.

By the way, Wirlfloc (sp?) and irish mosh in general is out according to Ken, heated bentonite clay will clear a mead must in a day or so.

Now only waiting on TCMM book to arrive and I'm set. Still gives me time to build my home made magnetic stir plate for yeast farming 


Cheers,
Brewer Pete

Refractometer Kit, looks like soft carrying case, 11 pipettes, manual, adjustment screwdriver for calibrating the unit the first time then automatic temperature compensation after that by the unit. $26 for the whole set.





Really cheesy modeling shot, but camera focused below on the manual booklet :S




3KG digital kitchen scale, 1KG portable digital scale, misc iPhone junk so I can mount it on dash of car and do GPS turn by turn maps and alarms of fixed cameras in Australia while driving  Power cord and more headphones and a DVI to HDMI adapter [don't have HDMI tv yet but what the hell it was a $1.60 gold plated! and an Australian 12v power supply for $4.40 (we are talking $2 or less for each, $6 for the car windshield adapter, $10 and $16 for the scales and shipping is free/included from Hong Kong to Australia)


----------



## mash head

Brewer Pete said:


> Welcome aboard greg! Honey also has natural antibacterial and antiviral properties so I am reasonably confident the WA ban is not wanting any honey born bee-to-bee diseases to be potentially passed along. WA has very strict any food quarantines in place. In the middle of nowhere halfway out of Alice Springs you'll meet a guy out in the middle of nowhere all stationed up at the side of the road ready to pinch all your fruit and any other WA quarantine items
> 
> Most of the current mead books have gone off the boil for a little play at pun. TMCC and the commercial meadery in the JAMIL/Brew Brothers radio interviews are now all no boil must methods.
> 
> Eucalyptus honeys get a bad rap from some from imparting a medicinal taste to meads however that said out here at the massive honey farm and packing plant one of the honey guys makes his meads exclusively from Iron Bark honey.
> 
> Lighter honeys have less nutrients than darker honeys so if you want a dry, no taste champagne style mead to do sparkling then I'd start with a lighter honey. If you want any honey flavors or aromas then darker honeys (and no boil is important for residual aromas and flavours).
> 
> Stressed yeasts put of SO2 (elephant farts) and stuck fermentations. This is because the must is not amended for proper growth and metabolism of the yeast cells (no amendment methods and little amendment methods.) This is why you have 6 month to a year to get an "old school" mead fermented and then years in the bottle aging to get a mead at its peak. Ken's method is a touch controversial but the basis is all amendments are to create a "perfect" environment for the yeasts optimum growth as their metabolism can peak at as the #1 priority, and the rest is secondary. A healthy must will ferment out in the same time as beer and slightly longer to bulk age before consumption. 1-2 weeks primary fermentation, 2-3 months aging before consumption. Once I start myself I'll have first hand experience, but the idea is by a year aging you'll have meads peaked in their prime.
> 
> By the way, Wirlfloc (sp?) and irish mosh in general is out according to Ken, heated bentonite clay will clear a mead must in a day or so.
> 
> Now only waiting on TCMM book to arrive and I'm set. Still gives me time to build my home made magnetic stir plate for yeast farming
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete
> 
> Refractometer Kit, looks like soft carrying case, 11 pipettes, manual, adjustment screwdriver for calibrating the unit the first time then automatic temperature compensation after that by the unit. $26 for the whole set.
> View attachment 25806
> 
> 
> 
> Really cheesy modeling shot, but camera focused below on the manual booklet :S
> View attachment 25808
> 
> 
> 
> 3KG digital kitchen scale, 1KG portable digital scale, misc iPhone junk so I can mount it on dash of car and do GPS turn by turn maps and alarms of fixed cameras in Australia while driving  Power cord and more headphones and a DVI to HDMI adapter [don't have HDMI tv yet but what the hell it was a $1.60 gold plated! and an Australian 12v power supply for $4.40 (we are talking $2 or less for each, $6 for the car windshield adapter, $10 and $16 for the scales and shipping is free/included from Hong Kong to Australia)
> View attachment 25807


Yes mate thats the reason for the quarantine but my point was that if some microbes can survive in honey otther unwanted nastys could. I have heard new born babies cant consume honey because it can contain bottulism bacteria (piss poor spelling I know) so my point still remains ignore pastureisation at your 
perril cheers greg


----------



## pdilley

Just added to the bunnings fermenter thread but for any with lingering plastic doubts: As your plastic bottles sit, there may be some migration of chemicals from the plastic into the water, but FDA spokesman Mike Herndon says the levels are well within the margin of safety. You may have heard about health problems caused by plastic leaching into water from bottles. However, that applies to containers that have a high percentage of polycarbonate (like many of the hard bottles people buy at camping stores to use over and over).

Plastics continually off-gas over their life and get more and more brittle with age. Same with things you store inside bottles, chemicals do leech into the liquids but the government (well the US in this case) wants you all to know they consider it safe to drink it 

For what its worth Bunnings has small rubbish bins, round, green with lid and Stamped "2" HDPE plastic. I am sure napi san will take the new plastic smell away. And then brew in it? I am sure it was $19 or less.

Then again, there's always my original brewing adage and desire, all glass  last your lifetime, heat my sand and spank me silly!


----------



## pdilley

greg simons said:


> Yes mate thats the reason for the quarantine but my point was that if some microbes can survive in honey otther unwanted nastys could. I have heard new born babies cant consume honey because it can contain bottulism bacteria (piss poor spelling I know) so my point still remains ignore pastureisation at your
> perril cheers greg



You know women pay good money for that to be injected into them!  

But I'm not worried about my honey. Any processing done by the packer is done, and it will be used up before most honeys get distributed to retail and rotated onto the store shelf for consumption. I've eaten it on 3 continents and on a semi-daily basis over my lifetime. I'll get food poisoning from an Australian chicken egg and do first! -- I have to rank the Australian Egg industry as one of the worst for quality control and selling old eggs as fresh eggs that I've come across. They don't even stamp each individual egg with the date! I've had more bad eggs here in my short time back than in Europe and USA combined over the past 26 years.

Point taken though, cheers.


----------



## pdilley

just got batteries sorted. according to wikipedia Australian $2 coin is 6.60 grams

Weighed the coin on the scales and got 6.6g as the answer on the small scale. The $1 is 9g which is a good test for the 3kg scale as it increments in 1g. With both of these I should be set for macro and micro measurements.


----------



## mash head

Brewer Pete said:


> You know women pay good money for that to be injected into them!
> 
> But I'm not worried about my honey. Any processing done by the packer is done, and it will be used up before most honeys get distributed to retail and rotated onto the store shelf for consumption. I've eaten it on 3 continents and on a semi-daily basis over my lifetime. I'll get food poisoning from an Australian chicken egg and do first! -- I have to rank the Australian Egg industry as one of the worst for quality control and selling old eggs as fresh eggs that I've come across. They don't even stamp each individual egg with the date! I've had more bad eggs here in my short time back than in Europe and USA combined over the past 26 years.
> 
> Point taken though, cheers.


Hows that pirate song go ? Something about very bad eggs. I am not suggesting that any good quallity Australian honey poses any health risk to the mature digestive system in fact there is very good evidence to the contrary just that there is risk in spoiling a brew how ever minimalistic it is still a risk. One think I have noticed reading this web site is that there are not too many rules in brewing that cant be broken while still achieving fair results. Cheers Greg


----------



## Airgead

Brewer Pete said:


> Well I am inside bunnings localy right now.



You've got one of them fancy iphone things don't you...




Brewer Pete said:


> Roving reporter now in supermarket, all juice containers marked 1 PETE



Yep.. definitely an iphone...


----------



## Bribie G

Airgead said:


> You've got one of them fancy iphone things don't you...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.. definitely an iphone...



And a typing speed of 180 wpm  Pete could come and work at our place any day but would have to wear fishnets and sit on the boss's knee 

EDIT: on topic I'm going to crack an early bottle of my Braggott at beer o'clock (around six o'clock Mexican time) and I'll post a report one way or the other.
if nothing else it will get me rat-arsed being:

a 2 L PET
contains six jars of ALDI honey oops forgot that 500g aint 500 ml :mellow:


----------



## pdilley

greg simons said:


> Hows that pirate song go ? Something about very bad eggs. I am not suggesting that any good quallity Australian honey poses any health risk to the mature digestive system in fact there is very good evidence to the contrary just that there is risk in spoiling a brew how ever minimalistic it is still a risk. One think I have noticed reading this web site is that there are not too many rules in brewing that cant be broken while still achieving fair results. Cheers Greg




I was going to get the radical brewing book. It goes into all sorts of creative ingredients that go into beer, even black peppercorns! 

Wines seem very limiting in that styles are well defined and there is not much movement room for experimenting with ingredients as much as beer. Beer is well defined in styles and many paths exist to get to the end result so that its almost like following a recipe book than very creative. Radical Brewing and Designer Beer may help out. Meads seem like the doors have been flung wide open for experimentation. Most people poo poo them because of the time involved and not much effort or time seems to be spent in the commercial sectors in the Western world. Its a home brewer only area and lots of experimentation with ingredients (chilli meads, chocolate meads, etc.). Seems like some fun can be had while learning and writing the maps for others to follow down your path later.

Pioneering spirit almost.

Lavender Mead! so long as it don't taste like soap


----------



## pdilley

BribieG said:


> And a typing speed of 180 wpm  Pete could come and work at our place any day but would have to wear fishnets and sit on the boss's knee


 :icon_offtopic: 
who says I don't have the fishnets on already 

got an iPhone yeah, only bloody annoying thing is it auto-correcting words just after you click submit you re-read and find out your phone made you out to sound like a complete looney or already up to bottle 9 in a swill fest session.

Already have brew calc on there, just need to load the software that lets me turn off the auto corrections and I'll be set.


----------



## Bribie G

OK first braggott tasting 




2 kg Maris Otter
80g Dark Crystal

mashed 68 degrees 60 min

60 min boil

30g Newport hops 60 mins 
plus cinnamon quill, 10 cloves, 10 cardmom pods, finger of sliced ginger


3kg ALDI honey (6 jars0

US 05 fermented at 20 degrees

***********************

Nice colour, head retention and lacing
A distinct cider nose
Tastes very much like a ginger beer with low ginger, honey twang, on swirling it in the mouth the cloves really hit you. quite dry, long long bitter finish. Despite the hops this is definitely in the cider stable. 

It's clean and refreshing ... sort of like beer from another dimension ... at this stage it's an acquired taste for sure, but let's see what it's like after another few weeks.


----------



## pdilley

Nothing 3-6 months won't improve upon 

Looks like a foam antelope frolicking in the setting sun on the sahara from that photo.

I'll try a braggiy one day I'm sure but I've quite a few mead recipe desires going through my head competing for the first few batches.

Smelled my JAOs recently and I think I've decided to tell SWMBO I'm moving my kit into the closet with the JAOs it smells so good!


----------



## pdilley

Ot: 

Any woe on the Kojikin hunt at the local Asian markets?
Same thing used to make fresh miso pastes so should be findable eventually to brew some mad high quality home sake.
I've also a fermentable foods around the world book on order with the Compleat Meadmaker book. Krauts to Kimchi to Cheeses and all those strange Asian patte looking things to Indian an middle eastern goodies even more Ginger beer recipes in there as well. Hope to make some good eats to go with all the fermented nectars I've cooked up and plan to brew in the next few months.


----------



## Tao

On the subject of books related to mead i would personally buy anything i could on wine making (i own 'Making Good Wine' & 'From Vines to Wines'). When it comes to wine making you keep everything cool to preserve as much aroma as possible. If you think you might end up with bacteria in your mead use potassium metabisulfate (SP) or heat and cool the must as quickly as possible maybe a mod on a counter flow chiller. Also you get some fantastic advice and recipes from becoming a GotMead patron. You learn a heap about oaking/yest selection and the like from reading that forum, as well as nice bits of kit to have (different bottler for wine bottles, it's anoyting to fill them from the bottom). Oh and anouther handy bit of kit is a stainless steel lees stirer riged up to a drill, it mixes in honey a treat.


----------



## pdilley

great information Tao, cheers for that. I've heard of the drill on a radio interview and had quite a few visuals imagining what that would look like. Don't have any wine books n order, for some reason wasn't into wines much, never have been so far though I may have to change my mind future. Just got beer, mead, and fermentable foods books shipping over.


----------



## Airgead

BribieG said:


> OK first braggott tasting
> 
> View attachment 25828
> 
> 
> 2 kg Maris Otter
> 
> 
> 
> 3kg ALDI honey (6 jars0
> 
> US 05 fermented at 20 degrees



The more honey as a % of fermentables the longer it takes to mature. My normal Braggot is 50/50 and is usually hitting its straps at around 3-4 months. Even an 80/20 takes a month at least.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## KingPython

I used dextrose and honey (cheating). It's drinkable right now but I'm scared to leave it mature in case it becomes too dry or astrigent.


----------



## Chad

Attached is my mead recipe sheet (Excel file) that I created which I thought I would share if others find it of any use. I have left my most recent batch filled in so you can see how it works, not that it's that hard  .
It doesn't do any calcs for you, I use the fantastic GotMead online calculator for that. 

View attachment template.xls


----------



## pdilley

Chad said:


> Attached is my mead recipe sheet (Excel file) that I created which I thought I would share if others find it of any use. I have left my most recent batch filled in so you can see how it works, not that it's that hard  .
> It doesn't do any calcs for you, I use the fantastic GotMead online calculator for that.



I'll have to have a look at it. I've always told myself if I had the time I'd write my own Mead brewing program, probably in Python and pick a GUI module that lets it be cross-platform so the same program runs on Linux, Mac OS X, and even Windows.


----------



## pdilley

Ok I should have the last of my gear ready.

60 liter fermenter for brewing out 34 liter batches of mead.




Also in there is my AC Triac Fan Controller for controlling my AC 230Volt 50Hz fan that will be the motor of my magnetic stir plate... and a nice stirrer to oxygenate.

On top is diammonium phosphate, with the Fermaid-K equivalent in the fridge.

All I need to do now is just calibrate the refractometer and then just get too it!


----------



## kevin_smevin

Hi All.

I was hoping to give mead making a try sometime soon but i have a question. I am planning to make a medium sweet mead with a single honey. I hope to make half straight up just fermented honey, then with the other half age with some oak chips for a couple of weeks. I was hoping to make half still and half sparkling for the wooded and unwooded. I dont know if that is too ambitious or not but i thought it would be a good experiment to see what differences i would notice and what i like best. 

I'm going to be using Wyeast 4148 sweet mead yeast. It has an alcohol tolerance of 11% alc. If i'm going to make half of it sparkling i need to make sure that the yeast stops fermenting due to a lack of fermentables, rather then high alcohol concentrations because it will need to be able to ferment the priming sugar to carbonate my sparkling. So basically i want to know if there is any way to figure out how much my honey will ferment out. If i can figure out what my approximate final gravity will be, i can figure out how much honey to add so i dont create too much alcohol for my yeast. I have a bunch of orange blossom honey and stringy bark honey if that makes any difference. Any help much appreciated.

Cheers


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## davewaldo

Hi Yum Yum,

For a first mead it certainly sounds ambitious! But if your keen, and do your research you might be fine.

I can see one major problem with your method. With mead (or wine) if you want a sweet or semi-sweet end product you need to either take the yeast to its alc limit and ensure there is still sugars left, or ferment to your desired alc % then "kill" the yeast with Sulphite and Sorbate, then add more honey.

As you can see, neither of these methods will allow you to carbonate using bottle conditioning. You can only make a dry mead with bottle conditioning. Don't be fooled by the name of the yeast, its only called "sweet" mead yeast because its easier to create a sweet result because of its lower alc tolerance. 

So if you want it sparkling and sweet you will need to force carbonate using kegs or something similar. 

As for your plans to split batches and do multiple experiments.... GO FOR IT!!!! Its a great way to learn. 

When it comes to Oak, I prefer cubes or staves compared to chips. Craft Brewer sells staves I noticed, as does G&G. Cubes/staves have a longer contact time and give more multi-dimentional flavours.

To figure out how much honey is needed to get to a certain gravity, use the Got Mead Calculator (on left menu). This site is great for researching mead making too.

Make sure you tell us how your experiment turns out! Good luck.

Dave.


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## kevin_smevin

Thanks for the info. Great help.

The wyeast description of the sweet mead yeast says it will leave 2-3% residual sugars. I assumed that meant it did not attenuate as much as another strain might, thus leaving behind 2-3% of the sugars it is not able to ferment. From what your saying, sweet meads are only sweet because you add more honey/sugar then the yeast can ferment (or stopping it with camden tablets etc), stopping fermentation before all sugar is consumed and thus leaving a residual sweetness.

So basically i want to know what the story is with the 2-3% residual sugar quoted on the wyeast site for the strain 4184. Anyone used it before?

Thanks


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## davewaldo

hmmm, that is true, it may attenuate less (but mead has far less complex sugars to help this along), but I think it will still be quite dry, just not bone dry. Having not used this yeast though I can't speak from personal experience.

But I don't think thats much of a problem. Dry mead is YUM too!

I say just go for it, if it ends up a bit dryer than you like, you can always add more honey and not carbonate.


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## kevin_smevin

True. I might just go ahead and see how i go. If its too dry i'll just add more honey.

Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.


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## davewaldo

I'm just thinking out loud here... but... and its a bit dodgy...

You could always aim for 12-13% or more alc and then bottle when the fermentation seems to slow down. But bottle in PET bottles incase you get bombs.

This way your yeast will die out from too much alcohol at around 11% but the last bit of fermentation will carbonate for you. The benefit of PET bottles is that you can purge the bottles easily if they start to over carb by loosening the screw caps (also you can tell they are over carbing by squeezing them). Also you won't get dangerous bottle bombs, just messy ones....

This is quite dodgy and isn't ideal, but if you are VERY keen on a sparkling and sweet mead, it might be your only easy way.


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## pdilley

Just myself musing here to myself. I would ferment out dry with an 18% ABV range yeast (Already using Vintners Harvest SN9 for that). Then you can rack off and kill off the fermentation and back sweeten one with honey, that will give you more honey flavours and aromas. The other you can clear out in the secondary, bottle and go sparkling dry champagne style in the bottle.

If you have more secondary vessels to rack into, then also consider racking onto fruits or spices in the secondary as an option as well. Using hightest methods its normally a straight mead in the primary and all the additional flavours and tweaking done in the secondary.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Ronin

davewaldo said:


> I'm just thinking out loud here... but... and its a bit dodgy...
> 
> You could always aim for 12-13% or more alc and then bottle when the fermentation seems to slow down. But bottle in PET bottles incase you get bombs.
> 
> This way your yeast will die out from too much alcohol at around 11% but the last bit of fermentation will carbonate for you. The benefit of PET bottles is that you can purge the bottles easily if they start to over carb by loosening the screw caps (also you can tell they are over carbing by squeezing them). Also you won't get dangerous bottle bombs, just messy ones....
> 
> This is quite dodgy and isn't ideal, but if you are VERY keen on a sparkling and sweet mead, it might be your only easy way.



That may work, from what I've read to get mead sparkling the pressure has to be much, much higher than beer. I'm assuming to get this pressure it'll take more priming sugar, or as you say you may be able to bottle it before the end of fermentation.

Either way I'm excited, I just got my dry mead yeast today and have 12kg of honey at home ready to go...only problem is I'm going overseas for 4 weeks in 2 days time. Not that a 4 wekk holiday is a chore, but I've been waiting ages to start mead, and all my fermenters are tied up with lagers while I'm away.

Oh well, just have to wait till I get back.


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## pdilley

If you are not lactose intolerant, back sweeten with that and let the residual yeast carbonate in the bottle. They won't ferment the lactose.


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## kevin_smevin

Not a bad idea about the lactose brewer Pete. Will look into that for sure. I'll let you all know how it goes and a couple months or so when everything is finished fermenting and settling out.


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## brettprevans

anyone in melb intertested in getting some lelvin yeasts for mead from winemaker? split postage will make things a bit cheaper.

alternatively happy to split yeast costs also ie. i recieve yeasts, make some starters and we split the price.


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## brettprevans

Chad said:


> Attached is my mead recipe sheet (Excel file) that I created which I thought I would share if others find it of any use. I have left my most recent batch filled in so you can see how it works, not that it's that hard  .
> It doesn't do any calcs for you, I use the fantastic GotMead online calculator for that.


great template there chad. funny you've got brandy down as an ingredient. i was laying in bed the other night thinking that some added brandy would be nice to a mead.


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## newguy

Done! :super: Just finished bottling. A bit of a chill haze - it was clear as day when I kegged it a few days ago. If you're wondering why I kegged, I force carbonated it.


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## davewaldo

Well????? What does it taste like?


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## newguy

Exactly like mead. 

I hate dry anything - wine, beer, mead - so it's medium-sweet. OG 1.090, FG 1.002. I can smell honey (I'm no good at varieties, it all smells like honey to me) and some low alcohol. Taste follows the aroma. A nice mixture of honey, alcohol, floral notes and some sweetness.

.....Where the hell is the belch icon?


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## pdilley

1090's a pretty low SG so you have a lower alc mead, can be drunk young 

I bet it tastes just like Ambrosia


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## newguy

Brewer Pete said:


> I bet it tastes just like Ambrosia



Who's she? 

You're right that the OG was a little low. I was hoping for something a bit higher but oh well. I managed to get 2 x ice cream pails of honey for $20 each. Each carboy got a pail and I ended up with 1.090. Next year I think I'll get 3 pails and put 1.5 in each batch.


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## brettprevans

here's a thought

plum melomel but use wyeast 9097. i recon an aged plum mead with that old casky horsy characteristics would be a strange but delightful taste. esp if you made the mead slightly sweeter to begin with so the sourness of the old ale yeast (w9097) had something to push against.


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## brettprevans

anyone looking for inspiration on types of mead, cysers, methglyns, melomels etc check out these retailers
Celestial Meads - Alaskia? retailer. MASSIVE list of all sorts of the above. great inspiration.
Red Stone Meadery - large variety of meads etc with recipe ratios
Chatea Dorrian - A South Aust winery doing meads. Ive tried them and are really nice.

No affil etc etc, just putting the inspiration out there


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## edoeven

hey guys, my mead is stuck~!
Quite a basic recipe, OG ~ 1095, wyeast sweet mead (1 packet, 20L batch) yeast, 2 tsp of yeast nutrient. 

Stuck around 1035-1040 for a few weeks now - I have stirred it up as much as I was game, and added another tsp of yeast nutrient, but the yeast still isn't getting on with it... 1040 is a little sweet for my taste!!! lol! 
It is possible I asked for this as the smack pack was a little out of date and slow to swell... and I possibly didn't read as much on mead fermentation as I could have  

What would you guys suggest - I was thinking of adding a pack of US-05?

cheers


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## pdilley

I've posted before how finicky and prone to getting stuck the sweet mead yeast can be at times, which is why I don't use it personally.

US-05 will get you about 12% ABV if it finds your must a good environment to work in. That would put your finished gravity down to near 1.004 if it chews through everything without giving up early, so if you can handle that you can go ahead and pitch it in.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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