# Bulk Sodium Percarbonate In Wa



## roger mellie (24/10/06)

Has anyone been able to source bulk 100% Sodium Percarbonate - like 25KG bags - in WA?

Hucon in Victoria have it for about $5 per KG but with freight it doesnt seem as appealing.

RM


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## Asher (24/10/06)

- bump -

No I haven't heard of any. But I'd sure like to find out too


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## ausdb (24/10/06)

I tried a few places for this once but drew wierd stares and blank looks but if there's a few interested it might be worth trying again.


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## roger mellie (24/10/06)

ausdb said:


> I tried a few places for this once but drew wierd stares and blank looks but if there's a few interested it might be worth trying again.



I'm pretty sure Hucon in Melbourne will sell me a sack for about 4.95 or so a KG - I dont know how difficult it is to courier Bulk Chemicals - they werent very helpful when I asked either.

The main reason I want it isnt the cost - despite the label stating 'odour free' on the products I have tried I'm getting this faint lemon smell in some of my beers and I reckon I have tainted one of my fermenters.

Considering it is 100% and 33% Napisan is about $6 per KG - there is merit in doing this but only if it doesnt double the cost shipping it over and there were enough takers. Register your interest now and I will take it further.

Would be much handier to have a local supplier - bit like you AusDB - draws blank stares when you ask.

RM


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (24/10/06)

Interest hereby registered.


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## hughman666 (24/10/06)

same here


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## barfridge (24/10/06)

I'll take a couple of kilos for sure.


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## MrDave (24/10/06)

I'm interested too.
Keeps the beer free of grubs and the shirts whiter than white. Yay!


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/10/06)

Just something to note

I was talking with a local manufacture of cleaning products and he was saying that 100% sodium percarbonate is not ideal for cleaning/sanitizing as it has no surfactant ( detergent ) action. This is why it is mixed with sodium carbonate in nappy san to give it cleaning power

Sodium percarbonate breaks down into Sodium carbonate and Hydrogen peroxide

Sodium crabonate is more commonly known as " washing soda "or "pool ash".


When I use Hydrogen peroxide as a spray santizer I add a small amount ( tiny ) of washing soda so that it will stick to the equipment I am sterilizing.



You may resume your normal un-hijacked thread... h34r:


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## Tony M (25/10/06)

Count me in. The very clean person I have lived with for forty years will be in sterile heaven.


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## chillamacgilla73 (25/10/06)

Interest stated. 

Will be great also for washing out the tin lids skids.


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## roger mellie (25/10/06)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Just something to note
> 
> I was talking with a local manufacture of cleaning products and he was saying that 100% sodium percarbonate is not ideal for cleaning/sanitizing as it has no surfactant ( detergent ) action. This is why it is mixed with sodium carbonate in nappy san to give it cleaning power
> 
> ...



Thanks Stu - That was useful - no hijack there IMHO.

But - Im now confused

You say that Sodium Percarbonate (PCS) at 100%w/w isnt as good as Nappysan - because it doesnt have sodium carbonate in it yet it breaks down in solution to give Sodium Carbonate??

http://www.wlchem.com/template/e-zc1.htm provides some more info - looks like 100% PCS is great as a wood deck stain remover or a carpet cleaner - great!. Good recipes for how to make your own laundry powders here too.

As I previously mentioned - I'm just trying to get TOTALLY odour free cleaning of my equipment - I use Iodoform as my no-rinse sanitiser I think the bleaching characteristics of the PCS are what I want for my plastics.

Does anyone out there use 100% PCS? How does it go as a cleaner?

RM


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## ausdb (25/10/06)

roger mellie said:


> Does anyone out there use 100% PCS? How does it go as a cleaner?



Sosman from the carftbrewer email list does to good effect
http://brewiki.org/CleaningAndSanitation


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/10/06)

Roger

It does seem a bit confusing, but i think it has to do with how long it takes to break down into Sodium carbonate and Hydrogen peroxide.

I think it takes about a week for the Sodium percarbonate to break down into sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide

The Hydrogen peroxide then breaks down in a matter of hours, leaving sodium carbonate, water and oxygen

Linky thing here -----> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate


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## roger mellie (31/10/06)

Update - is do-able.

I need to order 50KG's to make the transport work - minimum charge of $100 from MLB to Perth stings a bit - if I order only 25 kgs the freight is the same.

So the cost would work out to be $8.50 per KG plus $1.50 for a Proper Jar from Silverlock.

So say $20 for a 2KG container of 100% W/W Sodium Percarbonate - with NO smelly stuff added.

Not quite as cheap as I had hoped - but if there is sufficient interest register it now. - again. I reckon that if 15 people were interested I would do it.

Will hopefully be able to get GL's warehouse for sole distribution rights.

RM


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## Asher (31/10/06)

I'll be up for a couple of 2kg tubs = 4 kg's for me

Cheers
Asher


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## Tony M (31/10/06)

I will be in it. The supermarket stuff is only 34% and costs five bucks a kg and smells real nice so there are advantages in going bulk. All we have to do is track down sodium carbonate and concoct our own brew. What is that stuff used for?


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## roger mellie (31/10/06)

Tony M said:


> I will be in it. The supermarket stuff is only 34% and costs five bucks a kg and smells real nice so there are advantages in going bulk. All we have to do is track down sodium carbonate and concoct our own brew. What is that stuff used for?



From Google

"A better source is a swimming pool supplies store, or a hardware store that carries some pool supplies, which will carry pure sodium carbonate (a popular brand is pH Up), sold for the purpose of increasing the pH of pool water."

Wouldnt think it would be that expensive.

RM


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## Doogiechap (31/10/06)

I priced pure Sodium Perc from Jasol Chemicals in O'Connor IIRC at around $7.50 per KG min 25 KG purchase that was a cash counter sale. They are located at 131 Garling St phone 93374844. I have been patiently waiting for a cleaner mate who has a wholesale account with them to get me his price on the stuff (perhaps too patiently). I hereby register my interest also for a couple of KG's  . I bought my Hydrogen Peroxide/ Silver Ion sanitiser from them and they were very helpful. No affiliation etc.
Cheers
Doug


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (31/10/06)

I'm in.


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## roger mellie (31/10/06)

Doogiechap said:


> I priced pure Sodium Perc from Jasol Chemicals in O'Connor IIRC at around $7.50 per KG min 25 KG purchase that was a cash counter sale. They are located at 131 Garling St phone 93374844. I have been patiently waiting for a cleaner mate who has a wholesale account with them to get me his price on the stuff (perhaps too patiently). I hereby register my interest also for a couple of KG's  . I bought my Hydrogen Peroxide/ Silver Ion sanitiser from them and they were very helpful. No affiliation etc.
> Cheers
> Doug



Cheeers for that Doug - I looked everywhere in Perth without success - obvoiusly not hard enough.

Hucon in Melbourne is about $5 per kg but when you add freight it = $7.5 /kg.

I will call them tommorrow and see if I can blag a cheaper deal - in which case I might have the goods in time for the next brew day.

RM


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## Goat (1/11/06)

I'm up for a couple of Kgs - if its not too late.


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## chillamacgilla73 (1/11/06)

I'd love a kilo of your finest please Roger.


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## organo (1/11/06)

Roger.. 

a kg for me, if you can... 

Organo


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## Ducatiboy stu (1/11/06)

Aldi Stores have Nappi-San for $2.30 1Kg...better than 1/2 the cost of all the other supermarkets...


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## roger mellie (1/11/06)

Righto

A slight change in tack.

Ducatiboy highlighted in one of the replies to the original post that a mix of Soda Ash and PCS will work better for the purpose of cleaning brewing stuff. Basically a 50/50 mix will work better (make more OOH- ions beacause it increases the alkalinity) - the link http://www.wlchem.com/template/e-zc1.htm explains the chemistry.

SO

What I now suggest is that for $15 for a 2KG jar I will do a 50/50 mix of PCS and Sodium Carbonate. The price drops but I now have 50KG of the stuff.

I still reckon this will be better than any stuff you can buy from the shops - no smelly stuff or enzymes or surfactants.

Will sell it in 2KG jars only. 

So far 

Me - 2 * 2KG Jars
Goat - 1
Organo - 1
Chilla - 1
Vlad - 1
Asher - 2
Dougie - 1
Tony - 1

Thats 10 - need a few more before its a goer.

RM


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## ant (1/11/06)

I'll take 2 RM...

Ant


RM - 2 * 2KG Jars
Goat - 1
Organo - 1
Chilla - 1
Vlad - 1
Asher - 2
Dougie - 1
Tony - 1
Ant - 2

TOTAL - 12


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## Goat (1/11/06)

I'll up mine to 2 - thank you Mr Mellie

RM - 2 * 2KG Jars
Goat - 2
Organo - 1
Chilla - 1
Vlad - 1
Asher - 2
Dougie - 1
Tony - 1
Ant - 2

TOTAL - 13


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## Batz (1/11/06)

roger mellie said:


> Tony M said:
> 
> 
> > I will be in it. The supermarket stuff is only 34% and costs five bucks a kg and smells real nice so there are advantages in going bulk. All we have to do is track down sodium carbonate and concoct our own brew. What is that stuff used for?
> ...




Sodium Carbonate is not Sodium Percarbonate is it?

Batz


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## Screwtop (1/11/06)

Different but similar: Sodium Percarbonate C2H8Na4O12 Molecular Weight 316.04 is used to make laundry powders, cleaning products and bleach. It's used as a bleach, stain remover, and is environmentally friendly, breaks down into water, oxygen, and soda ash. 

Sodium Carbonate Na2CO3 Molecular Weight 105.99 used as an Oxygenator or Oxyclean in the laundry, it's a disinfectant. Also good for cleaning jewelery too.


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## Batz (1/11/06)

Screwtop said:


> Different but similar: Sodium Percarbonate C2H8Na4O12 Molecular Weight 316.04 is used to make laundry powders, cleaning products and bleach. It's used as a bleach, stain remover, and is environmentally friendly, breaks down into water, oxygen, and soda ash.
> 
> Sodium Carbonate Na2CO3 Molecular Weight 105.99 used as an Oxygenator or Oxyclean in the laundry, it's a disinfectant. Also good for cleaning jewelery too.



Thanks Screwtop

Found this also

Sodium percarbonate (or sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate) is an addition compound of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide. It is a white crystalline water-soluble chemical compound. When dissolved into water, its releases H2O2 and soda ash (sodium carbonate):

2 Na2CO33H2O2 → 2 Na2CO3 + 3 H2O2 
The pH of the resulting solution is typically alkaline, which activates the H2O2 for bleaching. The dry powder contains about 30% w/w H2O2.

Sodium percarbonate is an ingredient in a number of home and laundry cleaning products. It is the primary ingredient in OxiClean products and a component of Cillit Bang crystals. It offers many of the same functional benefits as liquid hydrogen peroxide. It dissolves into water rapidly to release oxygen and provides powerful cleaning, bleaching, stain removal and deodorizing capabilities. Besides, sodium carbonate decomposed from sodium percarbonate is able to increase the pH value in washing water to knock down the activities of calcium ion and magnesium ion, thus softening the water. Another benefit offered by sodium carbonate by raising the pH value is to reduce the negative charges of dirt and fibre resulting in the strengthening repellency between dirt and fibre, which leads to the improvement of bleaching and stain removing effects.

Compared with chlorine bleaching chemicals that leave contaminating residues in the environment, sodium percarbonate is an environmentally friendly chemical which decomposes into oxygen, water and natural soda ash when subjected to moisture.[1]

Sodium percarbonate is increasingly being the substitute for sodium perborate in detergent formulations due to its lower dissolving temperature in water.

Detergent or bleach compositions formulated with sodium percarbonate have a strong stain removal capability. It is very effective as a laundry presoak for heavily stained articles. It is color safe. It brightens colors and prevents fabric from becoming yellowed or darkened. Sodium percarbonate is effective as a disinfectant on both bacteria and viruses.

For its environmental advantages, sodium percarbonate is a good oxygen release chemical for agricultural and aquicultural applications


Batz


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## roger mellie (2/11/06)

Bump ...................

RM


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## BigAl (2/11/06)

RM, id be in for 3kg if you need more takers.

Cheers


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## roger mellie (2/11/06)

BigAl said:


> RM, id be in for 3kg if you need more takers.
> 
> Cheers



Big Al - no probs - its going to be packaged in 2kg Jar type things - so thats 2 Kg or 4kg? Assuming 4 (feel free to amend)

RM - 2 * 2KG Jars
Goat - 2
Organo - 1
Chilla - 1
Vlad - 1
Asher - 2
Dougie - 1
Tony - 1
Ant - 2
Big Al - 2

TOTAL - 15

15/25 - close to a deal.

RM


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## BigAl (2/11/06)

4kg is fine RM, cheers.


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## Guest Lurker (2/11/06)

Firewall here seems to be preventing showing the first part of this thread, but whatever it is that this bulk by frenzy is about, I'll take two of them.


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## Doogiechap (2/11/06)

G'day Roger,
You can bump me up to 4kg too  
Cheers
Doug


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## Tony M (2/11/06)

4kg sounds good for me as well


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## ausdb (2/11/06)

Not wanting to be a pain but I would rather just purchase the straight stuff any chance?


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## roger mellie (2/11/06)

ausdb said:


> Not wanting to be a pain but I would rather just purchase the straight stuff any chance?



No Probs AusDB - is 2 KG's OK - I wont mix yours and you can have 2 kgs of Soda ash aswell. Keeps it simple that way and I dont have any Soda Ash leftover  

Does anyone else want the straight stuff?

Looks like its a goer - leave this with me - I will try and get the goods before AusDB's brew day and make a special appearance as 'Bulk Buy Guy' - no promises - getting busy on the current project I am working on - Pumping 220 Tons of CO2 per day at 20 Bar - quite a lot of kegs could be carbonated with that lot i tell ya.

BTW AusDB - can you PM me with your details - like where the Brewday will be?

GL - If I cant make to AUSDB's brewday can I use your warehouse facilities again for pickups - I will probably do a direct deposit if thats OK with everyone.

Cheers

RM


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## sinkas (2/11/06)

If there is a spot left ill take one of whatever it is.


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## Guest Lurker (2/11/06)

roger mellie said:


> [
> GL - If I cant make to AUSDB's brewday can I use your warehouse facilities again for pickups - I will probably do a direct deposit if thats OK with everyone.
> 
> Cheers
> ...



Yup


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## Goat (2/11/06)

Guest Lurker said:


> Firewall here seems to be preventing showing the first part of this thread, but whatever it is that this bulk by frenzy is about, I'll take two of them.




LOL - love that attitude !!


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## Dulcet (3/11/06)

Hi Roger,

Please bung me in for 2 jars. TNX


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## randyrob (3/11/06)

Heya,

could you please put me down for one.

Thanks Rob.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/11/06)

Sodium percarbonate is also used in Aquaculture ( big fish tanks ) to add oxygen to the water...


Just another bit of useless info that is unrelated to Brewing....  

But BBq fish and homebrew goes together rather well... :super:


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## MrDave (9/11/06)

roger mellie said:


> ausdb said:
> 
> 
> > Not wanting to be a pain but I would rather just purchase the straight stuff any chance?
> ...



RM,
Sorry I didn't get back in sooner. I'll take some of the straight stuff if its still available.
I should be at Ausdb's brewday and be able to fix you up there.
Let me know if that's cool.

Are you pushing black stuff out of holes in rocks with all that CO2?


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## roger mellie (10/11/06)

Update

Sorry guys - despite my best attempts - I have been unable to pick up the stuff in time. I'm drowning at work and subsequently have had no time to do much else. Brewing has suffered most - need to get a few batches down for Xmas consumption.

Upshot is that there will be no 'Bulk Buy Guy' guest appearance at AusDB's brewday  

I have the list of all those who expressed interest - what I hope to do is get the stuff over the next couple of weeks and contact everyone for a pickup during the Xmas swap (by PM)

Since a few of you have asked for just straight Sod Percarb - I wont do the mixing - but you will get Sodium Carbonate straight as well - keeps it simple that way and I dont get left with any Sodium Carbonate. You will get 2 containers - 1 of Sod Percarb - 1 of Sod Carbonate - mix them yourselves.

Cheers

RM


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## Tony M (10/11/06)

Your efforts are appreciated RM, but be careful. Guys that let work get in the way of brewing end up turning to drink.


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## roger mellie (8/12/06)

Update # 2

Work Sux

No time to fart letalone organise this Bulk Buy B4 the case swap. I moved to WA to enjoy the outdoors - all I seem to do these days is stare at a bloody computer screen.

I will do it - next year - I promise.

I will however be at the swap - please abuse me and call me a sad git then - I will hopefully not be driving.

Cheers

RM


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## brendanos (12/4/07)

So how did this go, guys? Prices?

I'm keen to pick up a 25kg bag of Sodium Percarbonate (for myself primarily, but will help out others if they need it), and can probably get myself a great wholesale rate through the food service industry supplier I work for occasionally (industry/wholesale rates are always better!)

I have my hopes set high, after reading someone in Vic bought a bag for $60, so I'll see what comes up.

Ducatiboy mentioned that it takes a long time for Sodium Percarbonate to break down into Sodium Carbonate, is anyone able to verify/linky this? And possibly also explaining how it would increase the effectiveness in regards to cleaning hb gear? If so I'll probably go hunting for bulk Soda Ash too.


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## roger mellie (13/4/07)

brendanos said:


> So how did this go, guys? Prices?
> 
> I'm keen to pick up a 25kg bag of Sodium Percarbonate (for myself primarily, but will help out others if they need it), and can probably get myself a great wholesale rate through the food service industry supplier I work for occasionally (industry/wholesale rates are always better!)
> 
> ...



Go for it Brendanos

I have had no time to contemplate organising this and wont for at least another couple of months. (only managed to put down 1 brew in 3 months :angry: )

The best price I was quoted was about $200 for a 25KG bag - most people who were interested wanted soda ash - but seperately.

If you can get a bag for 60 bucks I think you have a bargain. I suggest at that price you would sell a few 5KG bags.

Good Luck

RM


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## kook (13/4/07)

Just registering my interest in a couple kilos


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## Asher (13/4/07)

Similar - If you have an opportunity to get a good price on more than one bag... I'd like one too (Will split a whole bag with BigAl)


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## Doogiechap (13/4/07)

I'm keen,
I'll happily go for a 5kg bag if you can get it at that sort of price  
Cheers
Doug


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## chillamacgilla73 (13/4/07)

Nice one Brendanos
Registering my interest in grabbing 5 kilos(ish).
Cheers :beer:


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## Goat (13/4/07)

I can't resist it - can I register my interest in a few KGs also Brendanos. Thanks.


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## sinkas (13/4/07)

Gimme cuppla kilos,


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## brendanos (13/4/07)

The buyer is on holidays so hopefully someone else there can call Jasol and get a price for me, and not just presume I'm making drugs and call the cops to my house.

I couldn't bring myself to ask them to get me a price on Phosphoric Acid and LABSA aswell, I'll do that when they call back with a price on the Sod Percarb.


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## brendanos (13/4/07)

All requests noted!


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (13/4/07)

...me too.


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## brendanos (24/4/07)

Jasol wanted almost $200 for a bag, so I'm putting the feelers out for alternative suppliers. Hopefully someone's importing it from Korea or China, they seem to be doing it much cheaper. Will let you know.


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## thunderleg (24/4/07)

I will take 2kg - or more if it helps the buy.

Thanks

Ben


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## brendanos (27/4/07)

I have found another supplier, and in a large enough quantity it works out to about $4/kg (cheaper the more you buy), so if I steal RM's idea and get jars from Silverlock I can pass it on for $4/kg + the cost of the jar (ie $10 for a 2kg jar, $100 for Asher&Big Al's 25kg). Price is subject to confirmation from them closer to pickup. 

Does anyone have any other preferred means of packaging?


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