# Brewing Qualifications



## Crusty (1/1/13)

Hi guys & gals, happy new year.
Can anyone recommend a good source of online courses that I could possibly do to get a ticket of some sort so I can seek a position in a small micro brewery.
I currently work retail & have had a gut full of the retail world. I know there is full time courses in Victoria but I have three young kids & have to work to bring in some coin whilst chasing my dream. I left school at the end of year 10 so I don't have year 12 completion.
Cheers


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## DU99 (1/1/13)

something like this..also try open universities
http://programfinder.ballarat.edu.au/Progr...gram.jsp?ID=366


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## Crusty (1/1/13)

DU99 said:


> something like this..also try open universities
> http://programfinder.ballarat.edu.au/Progr...gram.jsp?ID=366



Thanks DU,
I'll keep looking. I just want to do a couple of courses so that I have something on paper that recognizes some credited experience in the field.
I'll start looking for a position somewhere after that. I'm prepared to move obviously so here's hoping to a better & happier 2013.
Cheers


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## time01 (1/1/13)

Crusty let me know if you find anything, I am in a similar position working for a bank wanting a career change.

I spoke to program coordinator at Ballarat uni abou that course and basically he said without a degree behind me or commercial brewing experience etc. I would be no chance get accepted as there are only 20 spots.




Crusty said:


> Thanks DU,
> I'll keep looking. I just want to do a couple of courses so that I have something on paper that recognizes some credited experience in the field.
> I'll start looking for a position somewhere after that. I'm prepared to move obviously so here's hoping to a better & happier 2013.
> Cheers


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## Crusty (1/1/13)

time01 said:


> Crusty let me know if you find anything, I am in a similar position working for a bank wanting a career change.
> 
> I spoke to program coordinator at Ballarat uni abou that course and basically he said without a degree behind me or commercial brewing experience etc. I would be no chance get accepted as there are only 20 spots.



I'll let you know if I get onto anything.
I just want some recognized experience so I can approach a Micro & at least say I've had experience in this & that.


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## potof4x (1/1/13)

Training.gov link Plenty if info on this site with providers listed and a bit more searching may turn up more certs etc.


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## Bizier (1/1/13)

I did the ECU short course (1 week in Joondalup, Nth of Perth) and while I was familiar with a lot of the material already, it allowed me to ask a lot of questions and get a very good tour of the BB malting facility. I also did GCB and GCP exams from the IBD. I will be honest that myself and many others were unhappy with the quality of the IBD course material and wording in the exam, but it is still a good starter on commercial brewing and it shows employers that you are keen and willing.

While expensive, I am personally interested seeing if I can wing an online Siebel course somehow. I like their previews, they seem a lot more thorough than IBD and I like their choices of wording from what I see.

http://www.siebelinstitute.com/courses-a-p...quality-control


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## O'Henry (2/1/13)

While it is not ideal I think the IBD is the best bet (it is pretty cheap compared to most others), or you can look at doing something via correspondance from Heriot Watt in Edinburgh. I'm not sure if they still do it online, but worth a look.


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## eamonnfoley (2/1/13)

I visited Doemens in Munich a few weeks ago, and that is a world class facility. Wouldn't mind soon something there one day !


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## /// (2/1/13)

As a Ballarat Graduate and employer in these realms, i only take that folks are serious with the Grad Cert or Diploma from Ballarat (or ECU equivalent). The reason being Ballarat overs the critical and core basics required across the fundamental areas. The IBD work assumes a knowledge on many of those areas, and I've learnt never to assume anything about brewing.

The short courses are a good introductions, but not enough for anything past work as a casual on a pack line really ...


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## time01 (2/1/13)

"As a Ballarat Graduate and employer in these realms, i only take that folks are serious with the Grad Cert or Diploma from Ballarat (or ECU equivalent). The reason being Ballarat overs the critical and core basics required across the fundamental areas. The IBD work assumes a knowledge on many of those areas, and I've learnt never to assume anything about brewing."

how did you go about being accepted into the course?


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## /// (2/1/13)

time01 said:


> how did you go about being accepted into the course?



I sent my application off on time ...

Scotty


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## time01 (2/1/13)

what qualifications, experience etc. did you have?

As I said above, without a degree or experience they werent willing to consider me.


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## brad81 (2/1/13)

A degree is different to a diploma mate. Check out your local tafe and pick something you have an interest in.


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## /// (2/1/13)

time01 said:


> what qualifications, experience etc. did you have?
> 
> As I said above, without a degree or experience they werent willing to consider me.




Sorry, forgot the smiley face on that one. I have 2 other degrees and have also been in an out of plants over the last 8 years. Usually its a case of right place - right time, or last man standing ... I was also lucky to have a Phd/IBD Master brewer leaning heavily on and over us.

ECU has on campus options, but nothing long term at tafes. I think Steven Neilson was teaching in SA at a TAFE, dunno the basis of it.


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## Thirsty Boy (2/1/13)

I'll disagree with some other posters and say that the IBD courses are very thorough indeed - the lower level exams themselves can seem perfunctory, and they are very persnickety about the wording of the questions. BUT - if you look at the syllabus.... what you are expected to learn is very different to what you might guess just reading the questions contained in a past exam, and if you DO learn the whole sylibus AND you are prepared for slightly triksy question wording, then the exams become a lot less opaque. You'll get that with anything complex that is assessed by a multiple choice exam rather than compound assessment with assignments, essays, exams etc etc.

The other advantage of course is that they are almost universally recognised internationally and that they are available at "low" levels, with independant, non time dependant study and a shitload cheaper than "courses" at any of the institutions.

You can take their fundamentals courses, or for more comprehensive stuff either or both of the General Cert of Brewing and the General Cert of packaging. It'll cost you few hundred dollars and thats about it.

Not so bad when if you were to do both the GCB and the GCP you would finish with a qualification that is pitched and who's syllabus reflects approximatley the same level of learning as the Certificate from Ballarat - but fails to cost multiple thousands of dollars.

The difference of course is that its not actually a "Course" - its just an exam, you need to do all the learning independently, and thus the differnece in price.

TB


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## Nick JD (2/1/13)

Thirsty Boy said:


> The difference of course is that its not actually a "Course" - its just an exam, you need to do all the learning independently, and thus the differnece in price.
> 
> TB



Can you become a qualified brewer without brewing in a brewery?


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## Cocko (2/1/13)

As my Pa would have said;

"Get down there and offer to sweep the floors!"

Every head brewery started some where..


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## sp0rk (2/1/13)

The below units are TAFE NSW taught units (under the Cert 3 plant baking)
FDFOP2066A Operate a wort production process	50	
FDFOP2067A Operate a brewery fermentation process	50	
FDFOP2068A Operate a beer maturation process	40	
FDFOP2069A Operate a beer filtration process	40	
FDFOP2070A Operate a bright beer tank process	30	
FDFOP2071A Identify key stages and beer production equipment in a brewery	30	
FDFOP2072A Operate a beer filling process	40	
FDFOP2073A Operate a beer packaging process	40	
FDFOP2074A Prepare and monitor beer yeast propagation processes	50	

Surely if enough people bug TAFE, they'll package it into a brewing cert?
there are a few units on pelletising (handy for hops) and malting processes under the Cert 3 plant baking


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## Bizier (2/1/13)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I'll disagree with some other posters and say that the IBD courses are very thorough indeed - the lower level exams themselves can seem perfunctory, and they are very persnickety about the wording of the questions. BUT - if you look at the syllabus.... what you are expected to learn is very different to what you might guess just reading the questions contained in a past exam, and if you DO learn the whole sylibus AND you are prepared for slightly triksy question wording, then the exams become a lot less opaque. You'll get that with anything complex that is assessed by a multiple choice exam rather than compound assessment with assignments, essays, exams etc etc.[...]



I respectfully defend my position BUT still recommend anyone considering doing the exams to just do them because they are cheap and accessible.

I know a number of people aside from myself who complained about the wording. I cited an example of incomprehensible text from the supplied reading material to the relevant person at the IBD and they assured me that they were undertaking the process of rewriting everything. BUT they recognised that it is a known issue. Then there were exam questions which used different wording to anything in the supplied material. Other students also picked up on these discrepancies. I spent nearly all the allocated exam time ensuring that I did my best to understand what was being asked of me, but with their triple or quadrouple negatives and over-simplified diagrams I struggled. I mean, show me a pie chart with less segments than functions on a cam filler and I will wonder which functions have been combined into a segment. Show me a diagram of an actual cam filler and I will do my best to tell you what happens where. My gripe is with it being too idiosyncratic, and not being sufficiently edited and refined by the input of more educators.

I do not regret it at all, and I advocate that anyone with no brewing qualifications do both exams if they are available, I just had a number of niggles which got under my skin. ED: and it was from a perspective of someone looking through all of the material trying to memorise their silly numbers such as pitching rates which have no consideration of gravity.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (3/1/13)

IBD exams are written by over educated self important ......... Only my opinion.
There is no point in making learning a Fing pain in the arse, but remember a lot of them (IBD exam dudes) have degrees in science and they dont want you stealing their thunder for a few dollars.
You will only ever get a job bottling  
Been there and done that (IBD member) and really not worth the dollars ! If you live in Europe its better value , course and education wise.
If you really want to work in the industry ,make great (exceptional) beer, enter comps and win (consistently) and them mingle with brewers who brew great Micro beers and edge your way in.
My 2cents.
Nev


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## Fish13 (3/1/13)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> IBD exams are written by over educated self important ......... Only my opinion.
> There is no point in making learning a Fing pain in the arse, but remember a lot of them (IBD exam dudes) have degrees in science and they dont want you stealing their thunder for a few dollars.
> You will only ever get a job bottling
> Been there and done that (IBD member) and really not worth the dollars ! If you live in Europe its better value , course and education wise.
> ...




can i have a job?


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## beaconbrewer (3/1/13)

I am currently half way through the grad cert at Ballarat, I managed to get in with no previous tertiary education.
There are many paths you can take to break into brewing professionally however it is pretty difficult these days to get any work beyond working on a packaging line or similar without some sort of qualification.
If you can, I would suggest doing the short course at Ballarat, This will give you a bit of an overview of the grad cert/diploma. It will also look good on your application form.
Having a science degree would be handy but it is not essential to understand the concepts presented in the course. It would probably be a good idea to get your head around some of the more in depth brewing books eg, Fix, Bamforth, Lewis etc.
good luck!


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## DU99 (3/1/13)

Its only bit of paper saying you can do this and that,but it cant by the experience,how did the breweries survive before hand,what qualifications did thomas cooper and james boag have.i am not knocking the system but we have to think about how it use to be.


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## bigfridge (3/1/13)

beaconbrewer said:


> I am currently half way through the grad cert at Ballarat, I managed to get in with no previous tertiary education.



Not trying to poke fingers at you or anyone else, but how do you get to do a Graduate Certificate if you are not a graduate ?

:unsure:


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## Crusty (3/1/13)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> If you really want to work in the industry ,make great (exceptional) beer, enter comps and win (consistently) and them mingle with brewers who brew great Micro beers and edge your way in.
> My 2cents.
> Nev



This was plan B.
My sister who now lives in Tasmania has a retro fudge bar ( Belerive, near Hobart ) & they also do the Salamanka markets selling their fudge.
She had some guy from Cascade brewery in the shop the other day wanting a fudge to go with one of their new beers they were working on.
I am going to brew a few different styles this year & am going to try & get to the BeerFest this year armed with some of my finest.
I know it's just a matter of being in the right place at the right time. She gave the guy my contact details so hopefully I can talk to him when I get down there.


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## beaconbrewer (4/1/13)

bigfridge said:


> Not trying to poke fingers at you or anyone else, but how do you get to do a Graduate Certificate if you are not a graduate ?
> 
> :unsure:


I did the short course, got to know the lecturer, got involved with the local brewing industry, sent off the application.
Maybe I was lucky, it depends on the number of applicants and whether they can justify accepting you.
I certainly wouldn't let not being a graduate discourage you from applying.


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## /// (4/1/13)

A bit of context perhaps helps. The brewers who run through the IBD exams from the bigger houses will typically work through the material as a group and sit the exam (esp. in the UK). On this side of the pond, if you were like me, this is not the case, it would be solo study and the best of luck. There is an online prep series they have available, no sure the length but it was not the cheapest (from memory).

A degree from a school like UB, ECU or the overseas offerings, is a degree none the less and recognized as such. Seems students who study at Davis and some other schools can gain an exception from some of the 3 exams under the IBD, but not the other schools. So there is some difference there. Having tried to complete both (stopped and started the IBD twice), the UB course is at the Diploma level. With only the exams to sit, the IBD was just not the right method for myself. 

One brilliant thing the IBD does (and has started in Aust) is the various trade based and short items there (Beer Academy etc). Those courses are great for trade and interested folks and are a good step in broadening awareness of beer for the common man.

So, different horses (or should that be courses and exams), different courses.

Scotty


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## O'Henry (5/1/13)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> IBD exams are written by over educated self important ......... Only my opinion.
> There is no point in making learning a Fing pain in the arse, but remember a lot of them (IBD exam dudes) have degrees in science and they dont want you stealing their thunder for a few dollars.
> You will only ever get a job bottling
> Been there and done that (IBD member) and really not worth the dollars ! If you live in Europe its better value , course and education wise.
> ...



What's wrong with a bottling job?


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## Thirsty Boy (5/1/13)

/// said:


> A bit of context perhaps helps. The brewers who run through the IBD exams from the bigger houses will typically work through the material as a group and sit the exam (esp. in the UK). On this side of the pond, if you were like me, this is not the case, it would be solo study and the best of luck. There is an online prep series they have available, no sure the length but it was not the cheapest (from memory).
> 
> A degree from a school like UB, ECU or the overseas offerings, is a degree none the less and recognized as such. Seems students who study at Davis and some other schools can gain an exception from some of the 3 exams under the IBD, but not the other schools. So there is some difference there. Having tried to complete both (stopped and started the IBD twice), the UB course is at the Diploma level. With only the exams to sit, the IBD was just not the right method for myself.
> 
> ...



As I understand it the UC David "Master Brewer" program, which seems to be much admired in the US - is part of their "extension" program. So its not in the same stream as their degrees and diplomas. What I know for certain is - that it is at least (possibly more) a preparation program for the IBD diploma. Essentially, at the end of the UC davis course, you sit the IBD diplom exams. You get a UC Davis certificate or whatever, and you also get the IBD diploma, assuming of course you pass. For the past few years at least, the "dux" diploma student for the IBD diploma exams has been a UC Davis student.... so plainly Davis is doing a fine job.

The IBD certainly isn't part of the regular AQF stream in australia though. It doesn't get you credit at Universities or TAFE - its best to think of it as something akin to a CPA qualification. You know how to brew, because the IBD tested you and they say. Its an industry body - not a university.

That said - it is a VERY widely recognised industry body. If it isn't already, the IBD diploma is rapidly becoming the "standard" qualification for the big brewers - and say what you like about the beers they choose to brew, the big boys DO know how to brew.

But - as Scotty said. Here in Australia, you are studying on your pat malone if you choose the IBD. The are a few online support courses available from the aibd itself and a couple of other sources, but they are thousands of dollars. And well..... I'm an IBD graduate and think the qualification is valuable and all. But if you are going to spend thousands, you might as well do it on a local course where you get some instruction, where you get to meet people and network. The IBD qual is flexible, well recognised, high quality and cheap - if you are shelling out the big wads of cash anyway though, I'd choose BU or EC.

Mind you - I'm aware that there is an effort being made to run support and training courses for the IBd Diploma Units in Australia sometime soon. Depending on the cost, they might well be a worthwhile option.

Upshot for me is that all the institutions and qualifications are hitting around about the same marks.... I dont actually think one is significantly "better" than another. But:

*If you are happy to learn independently (I was) and official recognition is a significant part of your goal - the IBD is a more flexible option, is an order of magnitude less expensive than the "Grad" options offered by the instututions and is the qualification du jour for big brewers and rather a lot of international brewers of all sizes.

*If you want to be taught about brewing and the bit of paper is at most a secondary goal.... the IBD at the moment isn't for you. Go to a Uni, do a course.

In both cases - the first thing to do in my opinion, is get a job in a brewery. Hump boxes, stand up bottles, shovel out mash tuns. Get in there. The IBD certainly assumes you are already working in a brewery in some way or form. Its certainly going to help with your study...... and you mit find you get your dream brewing job without the qualification in the first place (but do it anyway)

TB


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## Nick JD (5/1/13)

Go get a degree in something that actually pays well in a brewery - it ain't the monkeys making the beer...


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## Thirsty Boy (6/1/13)

Nick JD said:


> Go get a degree in something that actually pays well in a brewery - it ain't the monkeys making the beer...



And that shows to anyone who actually has a clue of any description, just exactly how much you know about it.


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## Crusty (6/1/13)

Nick JD said:


> Go get a degree in something that actually pays well in a brewery - it ain't the monkeys making the beer...



It's not a simple task to just go get a degree that pays well. I have 3 kids to support so simply can't just drop everything & chase a degree which costs thousands & a full time course would mean I would also have to be making some money, somewhere. The family would still be at our current location which would mean double expenses unfortunately. We also only have one vehicle so it seems every which way I turn, there's something that gets in the way. I am going to the beer festival for sure in Tassie this year & my sister has spoken to the brewer at Cascade brewery & I will be meeting up with him when I get down there. I will be armed with some of my best beers & will be seeking a position somewhere, somehow. The guy from Cascade told my sister to tell me not to worry too much about trying to get qualifications as he started without one & it's really just being in the right place at the right time. I'm passionate about what I do & I will be doing my best to make it happen.


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## micblair (16/11/13)

Nick JD said:


> Go get a degree in something that actually pays well in a brewery - it ain't the monkeys making the beer...


The microbiologists earn fairly good coin in breweries, about $20K more than a junior brewer, as for management/execs -- couldn't tell you. Got a PhD in chemistry, and my day job (before landing a job with CUB/SABmiller as a brewer) was developing and manufacturing experimental drugs for clinical trials.  It's a cool job, but after being a chemist for 8 years I felt like I was more passionate about brewing. So after taking up home brewing 18 months ago, pulled the trigger last year to study the Grad Cert. at Ballarat and within 12 months of doing so landed a job with one of the countries biggest breweries. Took a huge pay cut -- but who cares right? Dream came true. The other thing worth mentioning is the big breweries employ a mixture of people with and without technical training, so if you've got the itch, don't write anything off until you've had a real go at it, or at least demonstrated (to your future employer) some commitment by starting the Grad Cert. or an equivalent degree.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/11/13)

micblair said:


> Got a PhD in chemistry, and my day job (before landing a job with CUB/SABmiller as a brewer) was developing and manufacturing experimental drugs


Breaking Bad


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## micblair (16/11/13)

Haha, yeah I have been known to rock up to a fancy dress or halloween party in a bright orange Tyvek jumpsuit tributing Walter White.


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## HBHB (16/11/13)

Crusty:

*https://weteachme.com/costanzobrewing/sydney-one-day-beer-brewing-essentials *

*https://weteachme.com/costanzobrewing/sydney-four-day-masterbrew-brewing-course*

Not an 8K course.....not even close. But, good entry level stuff that might create the thirst for further knowledge.

Frankly I think 8+K for a Grad Cert is downright bloody rude and heavily reliant on folks having stars in their eyes for a career in beer. Don't get me wrong, it's got the potential to be a bloody good career with prospects, but there's more hard yards than there are great beers involved.

Martin


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## micblair (16/11/13)

Yeah its expensive, you can always add it your higher education debt or potentially get your future employer to pay it off for you. Ballarat offer a short course too.


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## citizensnips (17/11/13)

May sound like a dumb question, but do you actually need a degree to open your own micro brewery? and if so which one is required? I just read over this thread and am somewhat confused about all the different courses and degrees. Unless you actually require one to achieve or do something I would just be trying to get a job in a micro brewery to learn the process first hand.


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## doon (17/11/13)

If you have the cash then you can open up any sort of business doesn't mean you will be successful with it!


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/11/13)

citizensnips said:


> May sound like a dumb question, but do you actually need a degree to open your own micro brewery? .


No. You dont need any qualifications


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## vittorio (17/11/13)

want to work in a brewery, volunteer at a brewery which is the best way to get a foot in the door


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## citizensnips (17/11/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> No. You dont need any qualifications


Cheers Stu


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## of mice and gods (17/11/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> No. You dont need any qualifications


If you want to be philosophical about it, you really don't need quals, or knowledge, or experience. You could get that 1 in a million oppurtunity and get that dream job out of the blue.. However, I would say the more knowledge, experience and qualification you have, the higher up the ladder of chance you go towards a) getting that job/starting that business and b) not going arse up.


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/11/13)

Well...there really isnt a qualification to speak of to start a brewry. Certainly nothing that is legally required. 

Except for a safe food handling course that local council would require.

The Ballarat course is more educational than mandatory


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## shaunous (17/11/13)

doon said:


> If you have the cash then you can open up any sort of business doesn't mean you will be successful with it!


2 of my best mates are Financial Advisers, I reckon they could really use you on the team


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## Crusty (18/11/13)

vittorio said:


> want to work in a brewery, volunteer at a brewery which is the best way to get a foot in the door


When would you like me to start?

Not too sure how the wife & three kids would cope with a non paying job.
I've enquired about three positions & all but one required a food science degree or chemistry degree, which I don't have.
I just need someone to give me a go & they'll soon realise how passionate I am.
I've had two sick days in two years at work & turn up even when I'm not well & I hate that bloody job.
Let me loose in something I love doing & I'd be happy to sleep at the joint.


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## eamonnfoley (21/11/13)

micblair said:


> The microbiologists earn fairly good coin in breweries, about $20K more than a junior brewer, as for management/execs -- couldn't tell you. Got a PhD in chemistry, and my day job (before landing a job with CUB/SABmiller as a brewer) was developing and manufacturing experimental drugs for clinical trials. It's a cool job, but after being a chemist for 8 years I felt like I was more passionate about brewing. So after taking up home brewing 18 months ago, pulled the trigger last year to study the Grad Cert. at Ballarat and within 12 months of doing so landed a job with one of the countries biggest breweries. Took a huge pay cut -- but who cares right? Dream came true. The other thing worth mentioning is the big breweries employ a mixture of people with and without technical training, so if you've got the itch, don't write anything off until you've had a real go at it, or at least demonstrated (to your future employer) some commitment by starting the Grad Cert. or an equivalent degree.
> 
> I did the short course, got to know the lecturer, got involved with the local brewing industry, sent off the application.
> Maybe I was lucky, it depends on the number of applicants and whether they can justify accepting you.
> I certainly wouldn't let not being a graduate discourage you from applying.


This is kind of what I would like to do one day. I'm an experienced mining engineer (electrical), and to begin with, I wouldn't mind branching over into the industry by getting involved in a large brewery construction project somewhere. The power, controls, instrumentation is very similar to what I do.

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk


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## micblair (21/11/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Well...there really isnt a qualification to speak of to start a brewry. Certainly nothing that is legally required.
> 
> Except for a safe food handling course that local council would require.
> 
> The Ballarat course is more educational than mandatory


What did you think of the course Ducatiboy stu?


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/11/13)

Dont know...because I have never done it. The point I was trying to make is that you dont need to do the ballarat course to open a brewery, but its eDUCATIonal value would certainly help. If you wanted to work for the bigger guys then it wpuld certainly assist in getting your foot in the door


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## Stormahead (22/11/13)

ECU no longer offers the dip or short course for those who don't know already. I get asked about it a lot so I guess it's a shame because demand was there, at least by potential students. The last guy in my class is finishing through Ballarat


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