# Other Yeasts For Cider?



## mb83 (28/7/09)

Hi All,

My first cider is just about ready for bottling. Simple recipe with a mix of Apple and Apple/Pear juice (pres. free), yeast nutrient and US05.
The OG was 1.042 and it is now down to 1.002. The cider is VERY clean with just hint of apple in the after taste. It is also very dry.

What would be another good beer yeast (not wine, cider or champs) to use that might finish higher and sweeter?

Has anyone had any success with yeasts other than the Safale 04 and 05?

Cheers,

Michael


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## tcraig20 (28/7/09)

mb83 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My first cider is just about ready for bottling. Simple recipe with a mix of Apple and Apple/Pear juice (pres. free), yeast nutrient and US05.
> The OG was 1.042 and it is now down to 1.002. The cider is VERY clean with just hint of apple in the after taste. It is also very dry.
> ...



Get a low-attenuation ale yeast like Windsor. Ive used this before, and it makes a much sweeter cider.


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## Fourstar (28/7/09)

Anyone used Wyeast 1968? I'd think that would be a decent yeast to use as it notoriously under attenuates.


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## bum (28/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> Anyone used Wyeast 1968? I'd think that would be a decent yeast to use as it notoriously under attenuates.



I see a couple potential problem with that yeast for a cider. Taken from product description at CB:


> Diacetyl production is noticeable and a thorough rest is necessary. Yeast traps trub easily and autolysis during storage is accelaerated.



Diacetyl might not be so bad since you generally leave a cider longer than a beer anyway so it'll just be a temp issue for a few days, I suppose. But the autolysis might be a problem for the same reason?

[EDIT: I should point out I've never used this yeast]


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## Fourstar (28/7/09)

bum said:


> Diacetyl might not be so bad since you generally leave a cider longer than a beer anyway so it'll just be a temp issue for a few days, I suppose. But the autolysis might be a problem for the same reason?



Hmm it shouldnt be mush an issue, diacetyl only occurs if the yeast floccs too early, which it may/can/will occur with 1968 as its a high flocc yeast. i havnt noticed any diacetyl in my ales made with this yeast as i ususally warm them up as they ferment out (my crawlspace where i ferment is usually 1-2deg lower than the laundry). a warmer finish will coax the yeast into cleaning up whatever they can, including diacetyl.


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## bum (28/7/09)

Like I say, not saying the diacetyl is a problem, more just something to think about. But I'm presuming that the autolysis might be a real problem since most ciders like to sit in the fermenter much longer than your average bitter (right?).


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## Fourstar (28/7/09)

bum said:


> Like I say, not saying the diacetyl is a problem, more just something to think about. But I'm presuming that the autolysis might be a real problem since most ciders like to sit in the fermenter much longer than your average bitter (right?).



Yeah thats the case but as this yeast floccs really well post fermentation (it ends up looking like egg whites in soup  ), i will have no issues racking off the yeast post fermentation to a secondary storage, leaving nothing but yeast and lees behind.

I guess there is only one way to find out . ive got 2 bitters or 1 bitter 1 scottish planned real soon, i'll reserve some trub and wash the yeast for a repitch into the cider. Any idea what the expected pitching rates are for ciders? equivilant to ales or moreso at lager rates due to the environment being totally different in ciders to beer?


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## captaincleanoff (28/7/09)

i also used 05 for my first attempt at a cider.

It is very dry, and almost no apple flavour.

Would definitely not use this one again.


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## bum (28/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> Any idea what the expected pitching rates are for ciders? equivilant to ales or moreso at lager rates due to the environment being totally different in ciders to beer?



To be honest I just pitch at ale rates but not basing that on anything. Had a quick look around for something more technical and couldn't find an answer but I did find some potential answers for the OP:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=34729


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## tcraig20 (28/7/09)

bum said:


> To be honest I just pitch at ale rates but not basing that on anything. Had a quick look around for something more technical and couldn't find an answer but I did find some potential answers for the OP:
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=34729



http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-ju...eriments-83060/


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## Thirsty Boy (28/7/09)

bum said:


> Like I say, not saying the diacetyl is a problem, more just something to think about. But I'm presuming that the autolysis might be a real problem since most ciders like to sit in the fermenter much longer than your average bitter (right?).



Diacetyl isn't going to be nearly as big a problem in a cider anyway - or might not be depending on what you want. I tasted some really good normandy ciders recently, most of which had a distinct diacetyl note to them - I ahve also noticed it a number of good French champagnes. It give a little butteriness to the ciders and adds to the body, allowing a really quite "dry" cider to not feel quite so thin and it softens out the mouhfeel leaving you with a silky finish.

NOTE - I have made precisely one, count em one - small batch of cider and I cried for help. So this info is just from good ciders I have tasted, not from any experience making the damn things.

I think I am going to try a re-cultured coopers yeast on my next cider ... just for giggles and the fruity profile.

Thirsty


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## bum (28/7/09)

The guy in JamesCraig's link used it if you wanna see his findings.


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## brettprevans (28/7/09)

so you read the several cider posts and came to the conclusion that people have only used s04 and us05?

yeasts that have been mentioned as working: any liquid cider yeast, W4766, t58, Red Star Montrachet (yes ok its a fruit or grape yeast). dont know why your only wanting beer yeasts. if your going to make cider it is ok to buy a cider yeast, ok if your wanting to expeirment using beer yeasts. looks for ones with a fruity profile. I recon cal common might give an interesting flavour.


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## bum (28/7/09)

I think his conclusion is that cider and wine yeasts will ferment too dry for his liking. Looks like he's looking for a beer yeast that will be much less attenuating than those.


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## Thirsty Boy (28/7/09)

bum said:


> The guy in JamesCraig's link used it if you wanna see his findings.



I "think" he used a pack of coopers yeast - and I also think that the stuff in the pack is not the same stuff as in a bottle of Coopers.

So there is only one way to find out if its good ....

tally-ho


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## bum (28/7/09)

Ah, sorry for the potential bum-steer (so to speak).

Let us know!


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## brettprevans (28/7/09)

bum said:


> I think his conclusion is that cider and wine yeasts will ferment too dry for his liking. Looks like he's looking for a beer yeast that will be much less attenuating than those.


ahhh fair enough. im probably just being a grumpy prick today

carry on in your quest for a non dry cider. although maybe read threads to get info on making sweeter ciders liike adding lactose etc etc


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## mb83 (28/7/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> ahhh fair enough. im probably just being a grumpy prick today
> 
> carry on in your quest for a non dry cider. although maybe read threads to get info on making sweeter ciders liike adding lactose etc etc




Yeah, I am just looking for a less dry cider. The idea of adding lactose concerns me a little, in case I inadvertently give someone lactose-intolerant a bottle. Maybe I am just worrying too much.

Michael


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## manticle (29/7/09)

Just remember in the same way I don't try and feed my coeliac mother a bottle of my homebrew.

Cider will tend to dry out. Don't blame the yeast entirely. There are ways around it but you may have to research and experiment. Try adding malt, try adding lactose, try upping the number of sweet based apples in the mix, try back sweetening, try kegging, try keeving etc etc.


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## krusty_oz (29/7/09)

I've picked up a couple types of Vinter's Harvest wine yeast from Brewcraft that are supposed to keep fruity/residual sugars. I got BV7 and MA33 to do some small batches to see what the results are like (there are some others that my be suitable). Currently fermenting with the BV7. I also got some apple schnapps essence to add at bottling to boost the apple flavour if needed. I'll update in a couple weeks when once fermentation is over


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## drsmurto (29/7/09)

I'm not sure why people have an aversion to using a cider yeast in a cider..... <_< 

The seppo experiment used real apples, and a combination of varieties so his results are relevant ONLY to his particular blend(s). Note also that he made dry cider (FG 1.002 - 1.010)

FWIW, i have used Wyeast 4766 (cider) in several ciders using both store bought apple juice and fresh apple juice from a combination of apple varieties and find that yes, it finishes relatively dry (1.000 - 1.010) but retains the apple flavour and aroma. IMO, ale yeasts strip the apple flavour/aroma

About the only way to get a sweet cider (other than using lactose which isn't actually as sweet as people think) is to back sweeten. And this will only work if you keg or like to be kept on your toes with bottle bombs. :lol: 

I found that for mates who prefer sweet ciders, a dash of lemonade when serving does the trick. Or sparkling apple juice.

IMO, the french, in particular the Bretons, make the best cider. Its wild fermented at very low temps such that primary fermentation takes months. (Its the reason i grafted my apple trees last year with french cider varieties. As it turns out, i brew better than i graft as they are failed to strike)

But thats just my opinion. :icon_cheers:


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## jonocarroll (29/7/09)

DrSmurto said:


> About the only way to get a sweet cider (other than using lactose which isn't actually as sweet as people think) is to back sweeten. And this will only work if you keg or like to be kept on your toes with bottle bombs. :lol:
> 
> IMO, the french, in particular the Bretons, make the best cider. Its wild fermented at very low temps such that primary fermentation takes months. (Its the reason i grafted my apple trees last year with french cider varieties. As it turns out, i brew better than i graft as they are failed to strike)


Don't forget, as manticle mentioned - keeving. The _Normandy_ method involves the slow, wild-yeast ferment, but uses calcium chloride to help the pectin form a gel and drop out, removing some vital nutrients, so the yeast stop working, and you get a sweet, clear cider. Nowdays you can add artificial pectin-methyl-esterase (PME) enzyme to guarantee the pectin gel forms. I did this a couple of months ago and it's now in bottles for several more months. Very much looking forward to this one.

Just putting the info out there.


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## brettprevans (29/7/09)

you could always add some xxx (cant think of the name) but basicly it kills the yeast. you can easily back sweeten without worry of bottle bombs. they use it in mead etc. Brewerpete or airghead will know what its called. i'll have a look in my mead book when i get home.


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## tcraig20 (29/7/09)

DrSmurto said:


> I'm not sure why people have an aversion to using a cider yeast in a cider..... <_<



Probably the lack of dried cider yeast. As a wild generalisation, I'd say most people first want to make cider early on in their brewing career, when they are still usings kits and dried yeast for beer. They havent used liquid yeasts before (which can be intimidating first time round), and arent really ready to start.


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## tcraig20 (29/7/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> you could always add some xxx (cant think of the name) but basicly it kills the yeast. you can easily back sweeten without worry of bottle bombs. they use it in mead etc. Brewerpete or airghead will know what its called. i'll have a look in my mead book when i get home.



Campden?


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## brettprevans (29/7/09)

not what i was trhinking of no. but campden could work. although some people are allergic to the sulfer compunds found in campden tablets.


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## tdh (29/7/09)

Potassium sorbate?

tdh


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## jonocarroll (29/7/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> you could always add some xxx (cant think of the name) but basicly it kills the yeast. you can easily back sweeten without worry of bottle bombs. they use it in mead etc. Brewerpete or airghead will know what its called. i'll have a look in my mead book when i get home.





JamesCraig said:


> Campden?


This is fine, as long as you're kegging, but in that case you could just crash chill anyway. With bottling, there's no way to get it carbed back up if you kill the yeast completely.


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## Airgead (29/7/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> not what i was trhinking of no. but campden could work. although some people are allergic to the sulfer compunds found in campden tablets.



I think you are thinking of Potassium Sorbate.

You really need a combination of soabate and campden to really do the job. Sterile filtering is another way. So is pasteurisation.

I can't use campden as the missus is one of those allergic people so I keg and back sweeten if I need to. I just back sweetened my last batch with honey. Very nice it is too.

Cheers
Dave


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## HoppingMad (29/7/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> This is fine, as long as you're kegging, but in that case you could just crash chill anyway. With bottling, there's no way to get it carbed back up if you kill the yeast completely.



Most of the Seppo forums I've delved into recommend cold crashing.


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## Sammus (29/7/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> you could always add some xxx (cant think of the name) but basicly it kills the yeast. you can easily back sweeten without worry of bottle bombs. they use it in mead etc. Brewerpete or airghead will know what its called. i'll have a look in my mead book when i get home.



Chlorine?


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## Airgead (29/7/09)

HoppingMad said:


> Most of the Seppo forums I've delved into recommend cold crashing.



Cold crashing will indeed stop fermentation. It will even drop it clear really quickly. But it won't kill the yeast and the fact that it has dropped clear doesn't mean there isn't still yeast in suspension. There is just less of it (up to 1000000 cells/ml will still be crystal clear if I remember correctly). 

If you then add sugar and it gets warm fermentation will re-start. If you want to bottle with residual sugar you better make sure there is no live yeast at all in there.

Cheers
Dave


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## jonocarroll (29/7/09)

Airgead said:


> If you want to bottle with residual sugar you better make sure there is no live yeast at all in there.


And make sure you enjoy drinking still (not sparkling) cider... :unsure:


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## Airgead (29/7/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> And make sure you enjoy drinking still (not sparkling) cider... :unsure:



That too. <_< 

Either that or learn to enjoy having your flesh lacerated by exploding glass... h34r:


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## jonocarroll (29/7/09)

Airgead said:


> That too. <_<
> 
> Either that or learn to enjoy having your flesh lacerated by exploding glass... h34r:


Or, as mentioned several times, try keeving. Mines in bottles at the moment, and I'm still un-lacerated.

Pasteurising is also an option, albeit one that I mention with caution. You do risk both bottle bombs and cooked apple flavours.


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## Airgead (29/7/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Or, as mentioned several times, try keeving. Mines in bottles at the moment, and I'm still un-lacerated.
> 
> Pasteurising is also an option, albeit one that I mention with caution. You do risk both bottle bombs and cooked apple flavours.



You're right. I've been looking into that keeving thing and it looks interesting. I might give it a go next batch and see what happens. Mind you, it pretty much requires (from what I have read) that you start from fresh juice. I'm not sure it can be applied to shop bought which I think most of the posters here are using. 

Pasteurisation - yeah. Unless you have the right kit for flash pasteurisation it can go wrong in so many ways.

Cheers
Dave


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## brettprevans (29/7/09)

Airgead said:


> I think you are thinking of Potassium Sorbate.
> Dave



possible. i thought it had another name.



Sammus said:


> Chlorine?


eeeewww. yuk. no.



QuantumBrewer said:


> This is fine, as long as you're kegging, With bottling, there's no way to get it carbed back up if you kill the yeast completely.


Good point. although my still cider tastes pretty ghood. i dont mind the still or carbed versions. but yes a problem if you want bottled and carbed cider.


EDIT: yup pot sorbate. - prevents the yeast from budding, and therefore prevents a colony from growing - it merely inhibits renewed yeast activity under the correct conditions. way of preventing bottle refermentation is to add potassium sorbate (sorbate) before bottling.


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## Sammus (29/7/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> eeeewww. yuk. no.


:lol: I kid, I kid. Was hoping you'd pick up on it too


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## Airgead (30/7/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> but yes a problem if you want bottled and carbed cider.



Unless you force carb in a keg then transfer to bottles...

Cheers
Dave


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