# S-04 yeast.



## Fendercaster (13/4/16)

Hi all. Im looking at some advice regarding s04. I have used it a couple of times but unfortunately ive found each time the yeast has "fallen out" and/or stop fermenting early. 
For example my current brew, a fresh wort kit, was 1050 OG. Fermentation started quick and steadily. After 3 days its slowed bubbling and 9-12 days later i have a reading of 1018. 
I pitch close to 22. Ferment at 20. I have dry pitched and started it 22c water before hand. Still aimilar results. Just not getting that last litte bit. 
Any tips, suggestions or help as this is a tasty yeast.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (13/4/16)

I'd go with MJ79 or Nottingham personally but I've had some adequate results with s04. Mash low seems to do it for me - single infusion at around 63 degrees does the trick.

Alternatively, from memory I fermented lowish (18 degrees give or take) and ramped it up to 20-22 at the end. That was in Tassie and that was pretty well the blanket method based on the lack of temp control and the hot water system cupboard method.


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## Brewman_ (13/4/16)

Hey Fendercaster,

I use SO4 quite a bit for some of my beers. Never had a problem with it. In Fact last time I used it I had two brews in the fermenter fridge,
Stone and Wood Pacific Ale with US05
Coopers Clear Clone with S04.
Temperature at 21.
After three days SO4 (Coopers Clear) was at final gravity 1004 and dropped like a rock clear. The US05, Pacific Ale clone, was still at around 1020. Not trying to say one is better than the other, it's horses for courses and these are quite different beers, and yeasts, but this was no surprise to me, it just works great the SO4.

A couple of points to consider.
1) How fresh was the SO4 you got? Has it been refrigerated? How old is it?
2) The quality of the fresh wort pack. That's a big unknown. Depending on the ingredients used, their mash temperature, water chemistry, Adjuncts used, the performance of your yeast is going to vary based on that.

a wort of 1050 for a standard 23L batch may benefit from 2 satchels of yeast, but I would have expected better results than you achieved with one satchel.

I recall similar issues, a long time ago, from time to time when I was playing with kits and bits. I've not had the problem since doing AG.

Cheers Steve


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## contrarian (14/4/16)

S04 does flocculate really well but I've never had problems with not getting it to finish. If you give the following a try it should work. 

Give the fermenter a swirl by picking it up and gently swirling it around a few times. This can bring a bit more yeast back into solution. 

Raise the temperature a few degrees towards the end of fermentation. Depending on how you measure the temperature of your fermenter it might actually be cooler than what you are measuring. 

If that doesn't work you can dissolve a small amount of sugar in boiling water and add to the fermenter. This has worked for me but normally a combination of the first 2 does the trick.


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## MHB (14/4/16)

Another S-04 fan, good quick clean fermenter that has never given me any trouble, I prefer it to 05 for most brews which probably says more about the beer I brew than about the yeasts.
Love the way it flocks and drops like a rock when its finished.
Mark


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## contrarian (14/4/16)

Given that a lot of people seem to have this problem I wonder if people are fermenting cooler than they think or that the cycling of their fermenting fridge drops the temperature lower than expects at times. 

It's difficult to know without measuring the actual wort temperature which most people don't do.


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## wide eyed and legless (14/4/16)

I have never found it a problem to use, seems this topic comes up every 6 to 9 months or so, seems those who do have problem with it are doing something wrong.


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## jphowman (14/4/16)

S-04 tends to finish out at ~1020 for me if I don't aerate before fermentation


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## Coalminer (14/4/16)

Never had a problem with S-O4 (but mainly use it in dark ales and stouts)
always finishes around 1012 - 1014
Never bother aerating wort other than what it gets tipping from cube
I always re-hydrate (OOPS!)


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## Fendercaster (14/4/16)

Hey all. Yes, i have mine in a cupboard and it sits at 20 min. It doesnt go above 24. 
Before i pitch i dump at a distance to get some air in it. As for freshmess this wort was less than a month old. I know the guy who did it. Local brewer. 
I also put my stirrer/paddle on my dril and swirl it around and get some air into it.
As for doing somwthing wrong im not sure i am. I have done everthing by book and i havent hovered either. 

Thaks contrarian, i have heard about the swirl and done that which has activated it again.
I love 04 but hope to fix any issues i have.


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## michaeld16 (14/4/16)

I often use s04 and love it I think contrarian may be onto it, as in peoples temp control isn't quite where they think its at.


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## GalBrew (14/4/16)

Pitching rate and fermentation temp are very important with this yeast. Pitch generously and gradually ramp up the temp as the ferment progresses it will work out fine.


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## Fendercaster (15/4/16)

GalBrew said:


> Pitching rate and fermentation temp are very important with this yeast. Pitch generously and gradually ramp up the temp as the ferment progresses it will work out fine.


Would you care to elaborate a bit further. Say a 21lt brew. English bitters. 
1 pack or get a starter? 
Start at 20 and ramp a degree from day 2 wach day till 24C?
just getting a little more knowledge. Cheers


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## contrarian (15/4/16)

I'd normally start at 18C and then let the temperature rise to low 20's after 3-4 days. One pack has normally worked for me for a beer under 1.050 as long as it has been stored properly.


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## GalBrew (15/4/16)

Fendercaster said:


> Would you care to elaborate a bit further. Say a 21lt brew. English bitters.
> 1 pack or get a starter?
> Start at 20 and ramp a degree from day 2 wach day till 24C?
> just getting a little more knowledge. Cheers


I'm pretty much like the previous post. 1 packet rehydrated for a beer with OG around 1.050. Two packet for a bigger beer. I usually start at 18C and start rising up a degree a day when SG gets around 1.030 (as it can stall at 1.020), up to 22C. You just need to keep an eye on the ferment as it flocs out like a brick and there isn't much you can do once this happens.


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## RoneMac (15/4/16)

I always have trouble with this strain.
Complete drop out and a stuck fermentation at around 1.020 SG every single time.

It is always rehydrated and viable before pitching and everything is set up in a temperature controlled environment for a warm ferment with well oxygenated wort.

My thoughts on the matter are that this yeast can be really problematic even though some people have great success with it. As this is the only strain I have had trouble with my solution is to swap to an alternative strain with a similar profile.


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## mosto (15/4/16)

Probably not much help as I see you've tried dry and re-hydrating, but I used to have problems with it stalling if I dry pitched. Whenever I've re-hydrated, no problems.


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## MHB (15/4/16)

I know this will upset some here, put please think it through before having a kitten.
The aim of an All Grain brewer is to create an environment where the yeast can do the job we want, that is to say fully ferment the sugars in the wort into alcohol and CO2, produce desirable flavours, clean up its metabolic waste products... producing green beer with the flavours we want.

We are talking about one of the most popular and reliable dry yeasts used in home and commercial brewing, many brewers report excellent results from S-04, others using the same yeast have problems. Apart from the occasional damaged package (happens more than once - change suppliers) I suggest that the problem is far less likely to be with the yeast than with the brewers who are having the problems.

After a ferment starts, there has to be a cause for yeast to stop before attenuating the wort, be it damaged yeast, under/over pitching, poor wort composition (balance of fermentable sugars, available nitrogen, good trub separation...), nutrient deficiencies (O2, Zn, Ca, Mg... FAN) or temperature control and stability.
Yeast doesn't stall with out a good reason, if you are having problems with yeast, take a long hard look at your brewing process and equipment.

Do the basics right
Good control of mash temperature (get a good thermometer to calibrate your other sensors)
Sensible mash conditions (L:G, mash temperature time and intensity)
Water chemistry (just do basic stuff reasonable Ca Mg pH)
Wort aeration and nutrient (O2 is a good investment, add nutrient (a good one not DAP))
Yeast pitching rates (no point in spending money on malt and hops, doing 4 hours work then penny pinching on yeast)
Temperature control (a fridge and a controller will not cost much and FFS put a small fan in the fridge)

In short instead of whinging about the yeast - learn how to brew!
Mark


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## pcmfisher (15/4/16)

^^ Yes, that's all very well, but it doesn't explain why some people have trouble with S04 and not with other yeasts.

Is S04 more susceptible to these shortcomings?

BTW, I have never had trouble with S04.


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## Rocker1986 (15/4/16)

I've had a bit of both with this yeast. Some batches fermented out fine and a couple didn't. Loved the porters I brewed with it though. I don't use it at the moment although that's mainly because I'm experimenting with some liquid British ale strains.


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## kaiserben (15/4/16)

I've had a mixed bag with this yeast too. 

My only successes in getting it to ferment out properly have been when I aerate with pure O2 (on top of pretty much all the other "basics" outlined by MHB in post #18).


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## MHB (15/4/16)

pcmfisher said:


> ^^ Yes, that's all very well, but it doesn't explain why some people have trouble with S04 and not with other yeasts.
> Is S04 more susceptible to these shortcomings?
> BTW, I have never had trouble with S04.


Actually I don't believe that to be the case. If you do a bit of searching you will find the same complaints abought any yeast you care to name, including S-05, Nottingham...

Perhaps it a perception thing, or a bit of the old accepted wisdom - different forums tend to have different pet hates. More likely the more popular the yeast the more people have a problem (whatever the cause) so more comment is made about better sellers.

BYO had a decent write-up on the subject a while ago, just searched for it BYO "Stuck Ferment: Techniques"
On the other hand Commercial references are pretty thin on the ground, perhaps commercial brewers know the value of making a healthy wort in the first place.
Mark


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## GalBrew (15/4/16)

All yeasts are different. Don't expect to be able to just sprinkle a packet of s-04 onto 1.050-60 wort and get a fully attenuated beer. S-04 requires a bit of love, infinite examples of which have been outlined on this site. Another example of a finicky yeast are the saisons. The French one is much more easy to work with.


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## Fendercaster (15/4/16)

Hey Mark, 
Thanks for your feed back. Bit forward but i can completely understand. 
At the moment tho i am currently an extract brewer and looking to move ahead. I really want to learn to brew but everywhere (most places) im reading there is next to nothing on that subject of pitching right. Most say pitch on top or rehydrate. 
I have seen issues with other yeasts. But not myself. 
Im here to learn and fix where im going wrong or if it's something else. I wanna learn how to brew and better myself and my brews
I love beer in how simple it is yet how complicated and intricate it is. 
My pa told me the more love you put into something the more love you get back. 
Thanks
Cheers


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## wide eyed and legless (15/4/16)

Fendercaster said:


> I love beer in how simple it is yet how complicated and intricate it is.
> My pa told me the more love you put into something the more love you get back.
> Thanks
> Cheers


Its like a lot of things when you first start to learn, it can seem quite daunting, things are only as complicated as you make them, you will look back and realise it isn't that complicated.


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## GalBrew (15/4/16)

Fendercaster said:


> Hey Mark,
> Thanks for your feed back. Bit forward but i can completely understand.
> At the moment tho i am currently an extract brewer and looking to move ahead. I really want to learn to brew but everywhere (most places) im reading there is next to nothing on that subject of pitching right. Most say pitch on top or rehydrate.
> I have seen issues with other yeasts. But not myself.
> ...


There is a book available that teaches you all about yeast. It is unsurprisingly titled 'Yeast'. It is written by Chris White (of White Labs fame) and Jamil Zainasheff. I highly recommend it. It covers all sorts of useful theory and practical stuff.


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## MHB (15/4/16)

Fendercaster said:


> Hey Mark,
> Thanks for your feed back. Bit forward but i can completely understand.
> At the moment tho i am currently an extract brewer and looking to move ahead. I really want to learn to brew but everywhere (most places) im reading there is next to nothing on that subject of pitching right. Most say pitch on top or rehydrate.
> I have seen issues with other yeasts. But not myself.
> ...


You are entirely welcome, If you persist with that type of thinking odds are you will make good consistent beer.
On the subject of yeast and whether to rehydrate, perhaps later whether to make a starter or to just sprinkle on top. It isn't a case of right or wrong, all three options have both advantages and disadvantages. I would strongly recommend that you read the manufacturers instructions for the yeast and do exactly what they say - they should know better than you or I how to get the most out of their product.

Sprinkling is quick and easy, done at the right temperature it will give reasonable results. Hydrating the yeast should improve its performance but do it wrong and you can harm the yeast (again follow makers instructions precisely). Do a split brew, hydrate half the yeast and dry pitch the rest, let your palette decide which works best for you.

With extract quite a few of the potentially problematic processes are done for you (Mash time/temp, mineral salt additions...) the extract should give reasonable results and with a bit of experience you can make excellent beer.
As mentioned above you can make brewing as easy or as complicated as you like, if you maintain a focus on making good beer, do a bit of research and build your knowledge and experience you can make world class beer.
This is a really good starting point for yeast, its by Fermentis so has a bias and is aimed at craft breweries but should head you in the right direction Tips & Tricks - Fermentis
Good luck and enjoy the journey.
Mark


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## Fendercaster (15/4/16)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Its like a lot of things when you first start to learn, it can seem quite daunting, things are only as complicated as you make them, you will look back and realise it isn't that complicated.


Yes. What i ment was that veer is simple in that its water. Yeast. Malt and hops. Mybe a few variables but then it get deeper. Balance on flavour. Malta used. Hop profiles and ibus. Yeasts. Its such a beautiful thing. I look forward to getting to know it simply and feel its not too complicated. I think the depth of it is beautiful. Its almost intoxicating for me


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## Rocker1986 (15/4/16)

It's intoxicating to anyone if they drink enough. 

I get where you're coming from though. It's a simple process but there is a lot to learn about it, I also find it very interesting and am always looking to learn more about it.


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## pcmfisher (16/4/16)

MHB said:


> Actually I don't believe that to be the case. If you do a bit of searching you will find the same complaints abought any yeast you care to name, including S-05, Nottingham...
> 
> Perhaps it a perception thing, or a bit of the old accepted wisdom - different forums tend to have different pet hates. More likely the more popular the yeast the more people have a problem (whatever the cause) so more comment is made about better sellers.
> 
> ...


Ok, I'm with you.

Sort of like Nottingham strips hop flavour and US05 is a diacetyl monster..............


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## nala (16/4/16)

You cannot go beyond the manufacturers instructions...pitch directly onto top of wort,only been brewing for 9 years so I could be wrong!


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## Fendercaster (20/4/16)

Ok, so this why this forum is great.
Thanks to all who messaged back. I have found that i am probably under pitching (probably everyone, just been lucky a few brews have fermented out) 
I am going to start my yeasts now with a starter and try and salvage more for yeasts on hand in my fridge. If anyone has any help or directions to start that would be apprecaited, or if some one is around the Nowra area of NSW and does said things id love to watch and learn over a brew. 
Once again, thanks


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## Quokka42 (24/1/17)

So, how did you go? I've never had a problem with this yeast, 'though I wouldn't try to brew a high alcohol beer with it - it's a traditional Midlands Ale yeast. I usually use it to brew in the style, so my OG is never as high as some have mentioned, but I suspect most are having problems with their mashing more than anything. If you are not using accurate mashing techniques, I would not recommend this yeast - 'though you could try increasing the pitching rate. If you are trying for over 5% I would just forget it - you aren't in traditional ale territory any more.


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