# Plane shot down with 27 Aussies on board.



## Dave70 (18/7/14)

Horrible news to say the least. 

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/malaysia-airlines-plane-with-295-people-on-board-shot-down-on-russianukraine-border-27-australians-confirmed-dead/story-fnizu68q-1226992872367


----------



## hellbent (18/7/14)

Dave70 said:


> Horrible news to say the least.


The world is just going crazy at the moment, wars everywhere, when will they ever learn from past history?


----------



## sponge (18/7/14)

I was watching the coverage of that this morning. Crazy stuff, and such a god dam shame that it happened, especially when it could've been easily avoided.

And to think that myself and the mrs had everything organised for our honeymoon starting in the Ukraine and working our way down to Turkey until we decided at the start of the year to do south-east asia instead.. We're even happier we're going elsewhere now.


----------



## n87 (18/7/14)

just what i want to see on the day i am catching a plane.


----------



## NewtownClown (18/7/14)

n87 said:


> just what i want to see on the day i am catching a plane.


Probably the best day to catch a plane, these tragedies don't occur in pairs.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (18/7/14)

What I don't understand is Russia is such a huge country, why don't the separatists in the Ukraine just **** off and move into Russia, it would even be to Putins advantage to give them a resettlement allowance for doing so.


----------



## Bribie G (18/7/14)

It was the former Soviet Union that flooded ethnic Russians into Ukraine, as they did in all the other now-independent nations. As thou sowest also shalt thou reap. 
Three scenarios:

Ukraine shot down the plane to blame the Separatists
The Separatists shot down the plane to blame Ukraine
Putin shot down the plane to gain a pretext to invade Ukraine.

If the third scenario is found to be accurate it will destroy any credibility that Putin still has around the world.

Nearly all the wars around the planet are the end-games in the unravelling of the old European empires. For example Iraq is the end game in the Middle East that was carved up the Treaty of Sevres when they dismantled the old Ottoman Empire, and the current borders of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon etc are totally fabricated. Similarly in the old Soviet Union, which was the second last Empire to fall... it was really still essentially an Empire until the 1990s.

It takes a couple of hundred years for these end games to play out. An interesting example is Central and South America (plus Mexico which is in North America) which was colonised mainly by Spain and Portugal. They were already old empires when Captain Cook went sailing. These empires have long gone, and it's noticeable that despite a couple of squabbles over the odd island or watershed in the Andes, all these countries rub along together ok in modern times.

Anyway it's bad news to wake up to.


----------



## Bribie G (18/7/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> What I don't understand is Russia is such a huge country, why don't the separatists in the Ukraine just **** off and move into Russia, it would even be to Putins advantage to give them a resettlement allowance for doing so.


Most if not all of Russia's gas exports to Europe (their main earner) passes through Ukraine.


----------



## Dave70 (18/7/14)

Bribie G said:


> Ukraine shot down the plane to blame the Separatists
> The Separatists shot down the plane to blame Ukraine
> Putin shot down the plane to gain a pretext to invade Ukraine.
> 
> If the third scenario is found to be accurate it will destroy any credibility that Putin still has around the world.


Pretty much agree with this. 
The finger pointing is already in high gear. All sides are well aware whoever the of blame falls on is getting thumped. Big time.

With Putin's ruthlessness, manipulative behavior and all his macho pro social risk taking, wouldn't surprise me if he was at least on the spectrum for a psychopath. Nothing would come as a shock with him. Take out a plane full of non coms to reach his goals? No biggie.


----------



## Bribie G (18/7/14)

Joe Hockey considering offering free plane rides over the Tanami Desert for pensioners, the disabled and non employed Australians under the age of 30.


----------



## Forever Wort (18/7/14)

Utterly terrible news to wake up to. 

Just another reminder that we are so lucky in Australia (for now) and to live life to its fullest.

My thoughts to all affected. I checked with all the Aussies I know traveling in Europe and thankfully they are all good.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (18/7/14)

Bribie G said:


> Most if not all of Russia's gas exports to Europe (their main earner) passes through Ukraine.


As America is the largest producer of natural gas, sanctions against Russia could be in Americas favour for putting their finger in Putins pie.


----------



## Weizguy (18/7/14)

Bribie G said:


> Three scenarios:
> 
> Ukraine shot down the plane to blame the Separatists
> The Separatists shot down the plane to blame Ukraine
> Putin shot down the plane to gain a pretext to invade Ukraine.


4th scenario, occurred to me this morning: CIA organised the shooting of the plane, to generate the opportunity to "support" Ukraine in removing these terrorists.
Seems that the alleged terrorists are claiming responsibility (perhaps even just for the publicity etc.), and that plays into the US plot?

* Edit. As MHB's quote states: The truth is out there, in no-man's land, being shot at by both sides.*


----------



## DU99 (18/7/14)

They thought it was a military aircraft.makes you wonder why it was flying near a hostile area.


----------



## Bribie G (18/7/14)

I flew over Ukraine two days after the Chernobyl disaster, airline didn't seem to know too much about it at the time.


----------



## Weizguy (18/7/14)

DU99 said:


> They thought it was a military aircraft.makes you wonder why it was flying near a hostile area.


Cheaper to fly straight line to destination. All about the money, and poor work from who ever made the risk management decision.

"I'm sorry, we'll have to hold on to your performance pay increase as you're responsible for the decision that led to the death of close to 300 people. Hope you can eke by with your $150k+ salary."


----------



## pat_00 (18/7/14)

I flew over this region a week ago. I was watching the inflight map and the conflict came to mind, but I thought at 30000 feet it'd be OK.

I've heard rumours that some of the eminent doctors and researchers on AIDS/HIV were en route to Melbourne for the global conference. Tragedy upon tragedy.

Also, a pro Russian Separatist commander apparently boasted on social media about shooting down a plane at the exact time the MH flight was shot down.


----------



## Dave70 (18/7/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> 4th scenario, occurred to me this morning: CIA organised the shooting of the plane, to generate the opportunity to "support" Ukraine in removing these terrorists.
> Seems that the alleged terrorists are claiming responsibility (perhaps even just for the publicity etc.), and that plays into the US plot?


Not sure if serious..


----------



## Droopy Brew (18/7/14)

Malaysia Airlines will have some serious PR issues after the last 6 months. 
A great shame to be sure but how much bad luck can 1 airline have?


----------



## Dave70 (18/7/14)

I'd book a flight with them over Qantas any day. 

Those delightfull hosties know how to keep a man happy on a long haul. Hot towel and screwdriver happy.


----------



## Feldon (18/7/14)

Cui Bono?


----------



## pcmfisher (18/7/14)

I think Putin is in the shit regardless of who shot the plane down.

I also think it will be the end of Malaysia Airlines.


----------



## Dave70 (18/7/14)

Feldon said:


> Cui Bono?


Could have been a case of mistaken identity. 




pcmfisher said:


> I think Putin is in the shit regardless of who shot the plane down.


Putin is awesome.
I especially thought his endorsement of Irans nuclear program a positive step for everybody.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL (18/7/14)

World war 3 come at me bro


----------



## Weizguy (18/7/14)

Dave70 said:


> Not sure if serious..


Serious that Intelligence is not above this sort of behaviour. Check your history books.

*Not entirely likely, perhaps, but still quite possible.

Why would you question it? Anti-conspiracy theory bias?


----------



## Eagleburger (18/7/14)

Gonna be some angry words spoken about this.


----------



## schrodinger (18/7/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Serious that Intelligence is not above this sort of behaviour. Check your history books.
> 
> *Not entirely likely, perhaps, but still quite possible.
> 
> Why would you question it? Anti-conspiracy theory bias?


When did the CIA previously shoot down a passenger jet?


----------



## wide eyed and legless (18/7/14)

What will become interesting in the next few days, is whether the Netherlands will now back sanctions against Russia instead of opposing them, or will business come before terrorist atrocities against 154 of their own nationals.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (18/7/14)

If it were the Australian government I would say business, besides what else could we do ?
My 2c


----------



## wide eyed and legless (18/7/14)

I was under the impression our Julie had already announced sanctions against Russia some time ago.


----------



## Weizguy (18/7/14)

schrodinger said:


> When did the CIA previously shoot down a passenger jet?


So, can you state that they NEVER have done anything like it?
Never traded drugs for guns, or anything morally questionable?

Ah look, it was a theoretical scenario. Just saying that no-one questions it, or says it's even possible. Never heard of 'covert ops'?

Yeah, you're right. I'm wrong for trying to think independently. Well argued!


----------



## Dave70 (18/7/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Serious that Intelligence is not above this sort of behaviour. Check your history books.
> 
> *Not entirely likely, perhaps, but still quite possible.
> 
> Why would you question it? Anti-conspiracy theory bias?


Arming mujaheddin soldiers to fight the Soviets, I can see that. 
Subversive activity in Vietnam to oust the commies, no doubt.

Murdering of a plane full of allied civilians in plain view of the world? About as likely that the CIA masterminded 9/11. 







schrodinger said:


> When did the CIA previously shoot down a passenger jet?


Heaps of times.
The government covered it up.
Didn't you read that thing by that guy on the internet?


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (18/7/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I was under the impression our Julie had already announced sanctions against Russia some time ago.


Yeah its possible but I dont read the news much. But then I guessed right


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL (18/7/14)

"Didn't you read that thing by that guy on the internet?"


That guy is so 1962!!!


----------



## Weizguy (18/7/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> *Not entirely likely, perhaps, but still quite possible.


No one read this line?



Dave70 said:


> Arming mujaheddin soldiers to fight the Soviets, I can see that.
> Subversive activity in Vietnam to oust the commies, no doubt.
> 
> Murdering of a plane full of allied civilians in plain view of the world? About as likely that the CIA masterminded 9/11.
> ...


Yep, I took your bait.

Now I shall stop my part in this conversation.


----------



## seamad (18/7/14)

Dave70 said:


> Arming mujaheddin soldiers to fight the Soviets, I can see that.
> Subversive activity in Vietnam to oust the commies, no doubt.
> 
> Murdering of a plane full of allied civilians in plain view of the world? About as likely that the CIA masterminded 9/11.
> ...


You're all wrong, its them jews that done it, so no one notices they just sent the troops into gaza. B)


----------



## Dave70 (18/7/14)

seamad said:


> You're all wrong, its them jews that done it, so no one notices they just sent the troops into gaza. B)


Jews? Bullshit.
Illuminati FTW.


----------



## Dave70 (18/7/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> No one read this line?
> 
> Yep, I took your bait.
> 
> ...


Don't make someone roll out the tinfoil hat meme. Cos they'll do it.


----------



## mje1980 (18/7/14)

It'd be a great way to frame Putin if you think about it. Everyone pretty much thinks he's responsible anyway. He wouldn't be that stupid. 


Tragedy anyway


----------



## Eagleburger (18/7/14)

I reckon Putin did it just to show Obama what a bad arse he is.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (18/7/14)

I dont think Putin thinks hes stupid, the media just underestimates his capabilities.


----------



## tazman1967 (18/7/14)

Somebody gave the village idiot the keys to a Ferrari.

It wasn't shot down with what the rebels have at the moment, portable missile launchers.
None have the range, so it was shot down with a dedicated Surface To Air Missile system.
Rumour has it was a BUK Missile system, being a SA-11 Gadfly.
This system is designed to bring down NATO Bombers. It requires a crew of 4 "trained" operators to use it.
It aint like playing a PS3 game.
A experienced radar operator would have seen by the altitude and path of the plane, that it was a commercial airliner.
BUT, the village idiot was at the controls..
One big stuff up for all..


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (18/7/14)

The village idiot joined AHB November 2011, didnt expect that from him .


----------



## mje1980 (18/7/14)

Shit, the village idiot is a member of our brew club. I'm seeing him tomorrow at a club event. If he's draped in a red white and blue flag, and says such words as "da", "speciba" and "naz drovya" I'll let you guys know.


----------



## pat_00 (18/7/14)

Dave70 said:


> Jews? Bullshit.
> Illuminati FTW.


Those damn kabbalist shapeshifting space lizards! Should have known


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (18/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> Shit, the village idiot is a member of our brew club. I'm seeing him tomorrow at a club event. If he's draped in a red white and blue flag, and says such words as "da", "speciba" and "naz drovya" I'll let you guys know.


You can never tell.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (18/7/14)

Re the Russian Gas supplies.

Western Europe is already going hammer & tongs to get gas out of the north sea so that Russia cant hold them to ransome


----------



## Lincoln2 (18/7/14)

Lincoln says: "Send in the troops."

If our boys can't clean out these borscht eating morons I want my tax dollars back. We have allies in the neighbourhood and we can test out our new fighter jets; give our lads some Baltic Porter or RIS for acclimatisation purposes and spank these donkey thugs back to Moscow.

Sack up Tony. It's easy to bash the weak; let's take on some genuine dipsh1ts.


----------



## pk.sax (18/7/14)

And there goes the neighbourhood.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL (18/7/14)

Dave70 said:
 

> Jews? Bullshit.
> Illuminati FTW.


----------



## mje1980 (18/7/14)

Lincoln2 said:


> Lincoln says: "Send in the troops."
> 
> If our boys can't clean out these borscht eating morons I want my tax dollars back. We have allies in the neighbourhood and we can test out our new fighter jets; give our lads some Baltic Porter or RIS for acclimatisation purposes and spank these donkey thugs back to Moscow.
> 
> Sack up Tony. It's easy to bash the weak; let's take on some genuine dipsh1ts.


**** yeah let's invade tonga, they've got heaps of coconuts. **** yeah


----------



## Mattress (18/7/14)

Quite a few years ago now I was managing a department at one of the local hospitals. 
One of the sections I was responsible for was the Hospital Assistants, staff who maintained and cleaned hospital equipment, ranging from beds to humidicribs.

One time when I was interviewing applicants for a casual Hospital Assistant position I met a lady called Liliane.
Liliane told me she was originally from Amsterdam, was the mother to two young girls, had been through a
relationship breakdown and had pretty much been doing it tough for a while but wanted to get he life back on track and that she just needed a chance to make things better for herself and her girls.

I ended up employing Liliane and she became one of the better staff that I had, worked hard, always willing to help out with whatever I needed.

Liliane ended up getting a full time position and became one of the staff that (and this may make me sound like a wanker) I felt a sense of pride in. I had a few staff who life had thrown them lemons and after I was able to give them a job, allowed them to improve their situation. It always made me feel good seeing them become happier with their lives after getting a job that paid ok and with good conditions.

After a few years Liliane was offered a position in another section of the hospital where the work was more clerical in nature and developed skills in this area. She eventually left the hospital and moved on to bigger and better things. I caught up with her about a year ago where she told me how well life was going for her and her girls.

This afternoon I found out Liliane was a passenger on Malaysia Airlines MH17, which really sucks.

I've had a couple of beers and felt the need to tell someone that Liliane was a good person, the type this country needs. She could have stayed on welfare, lived of the tax payer, but she wanted to have a go and do the right thing by herself and her family, and she did it.

Thanks for listening.,


----------



## bradsbrew (18/7/14)

Don't know what to say Mattress. Just wow. Condolences to you for your good freind. Sad thing is how many people this effects both directly and indirectly.


----------



## thedragon (18/7/14)

Mattress said:


> This afternoon I found out Liliane was a passenger on Malaysia Airlines MH17, which really sucks.


Sorry to hear it mate. 

Liliane sounds like she was a honourable woman. Our thoughts are, and should be, with her family and the families of others that have passed as a result of this tragedy.


----------



## tavas (18/7/14)

My heartfelt condolences Mattress. There are few words and no explanations for times like these.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (18/7/14)

It seems as though there may have been quite a few very decent people on this flight and your friend was one among them. 

Unfortunately, the concept of decency doesn't exist for the perpetrators of this horrendous crime. 

I'm sorry for your loss Mattress and everyone else who has lost someone dear to them.


----------



## pedleyr (18/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> It'd be a great way to frame Putin if you think about it. Everyone pretty much thinks he's responsible anyway. He wouldn't be that stupid.
> 
> 
> Tragedy anyway


What'd be the point of framing him? He annexed Crimea and nobody did anything. If they want to go after him they have plenty of reasons to do so, murdering innocents wouldn't be necessary.


----------



## danestead (19/7/14)

Mattress, im with you. Im sorry to hear the loss of your friend. I myself know the grandfather from WA with his 3 grandchildren on the flight, moreso his son but I have known him through sailing as a young kid. My friends business parnet was also frineds with one of the pilots. It is a sad day and thoughts are with all the families.


----------



## schrodinger (19/7/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> So, can you state that they NEVER have done anything like it?
> Never traded drugs for guns, or anything morally questionable?
> 
> Ah look, it was a theoretical scenario. Just saying that no-one questions it, or says it's even possible. Never heard of 'covert ops'?
> ...


I argued nothing, but only asked a direct question in earnest. You read an argument between the lines.

But since we're apparently arguing anyway, I'll note that it's pretty laughable to equate independent thinking with believing conspiracy theories. The first resort of a truly independent thinker would be the principle of parsimony, which states that the simplest explanation (the one with the fewest untested assumptions) is the most likely.


----------



## pcmfisher (19/7/14)

Mr Abbott just said, 
" Australia announced that it was reconsidering Russian president Vladimir Putin's attendance at the G20 in November"

I wonder if he could or would enforce this?


----------



## pedleyr (19/7/14)

Absolutely he can, we can deny entry into the country to anyone we want. 

Putin should have been excluded anyway, whether this happened or not, **** this facade of Russia being a responsible member of the international community.


----------



## Eagleburger (19/7/14)

They need to sew his mouth shut like they did through the elections. Dick head will get our arses nuked.


----------



## MastersBrewery (19/7/14)

There are 2 options regarding the G20

1. Not allow him entry to get the message across that Australia and the rest of the International community do not condone his continued support of dissident factions.
2. Allow him to attend the G20 and have the rest of the International community bring him to task face to face. He would also see public demonstrations directly aimed at him.

I like option 2 myself, haven't been to a good Demo in ages!


----------



## motch02 (19/7/14)

pedleyr said:


> Absolutely he can, we can deny entry into the country to anyone we want.
> 
> Putin should have been excluded anyway, whether this happened or not, **** this facade of Russia being a responsible member of the international community.


As compared to the friendly libertarians of the US?, who aided in funding the coup and started this mess by pushing NATO's influence further east?.. That is a silly comment


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (19/7/14)

Could this be the next, Russian Contras to be added to Wikipedia ?
I have a feeling I could be onto something here.
I shows just what governments are capable of if left to their own devices.
Nev


----------



## pedleyr (19/7/14)

motch02 said:


> As compared to the friendly libertarians of the US?, who aided in funding the coup and started this mess by pushing NATO's influence further east?.. That is a silly comment


Not to be too blunt here but it's either ignorance or dishonesty to assert that what the US does/has done is as morally reprehensible as Russia - keeping in mind that Russia doesn't actually intervene in things that are what you'd call international causes, unless it's to directly further it's own interests. It doesn't participate in international cooperative interventions and in fact tries to block them at every opportunity. 

Putin is a scumbag and Russia are not responsible members of the international community and shouldn't be treated as such. The US aren't perfect but it's not only different leagues, it's a different sort entirely.


----------



## motch02 (19/7/14)

pedleyr said:


> Not to be too blunt here but it's either ignorance or dishonesty to assert that what the US does/has done is as morally reprehensible as Russia - keeping in mind that Russia doesn't actually intervene in things with a positive goal or outcome.


You are stuck in WW2 Russia, I'm not sticking up for Russia then, but Putin has played this very well not even firing a shot to take Crimea and the people wanted it after the coup. Who are we to say that these people can't join Russia?, I know we are Westerners so people have their ideas that the US is this all saving grace but do list?,

Also to show how many countries the US has had it's fingers in over time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions 

And here Victoria Nuland discussing the future Ukrainian Government: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QxZ8t3V_bk

And if you want to say Afghanistan they did come to the aid of the government at the time while the US trained and armed men like Osama Bin Laden


----------



## pedleyr (19/7/14)

motch02 said:


> You are stuck in WW2 Russia, I'm not sticking up for Russia then, but Putin has played this very well not even firing a shot to take Crimea and the people wanted it after the coup. Who are we to say that these people can't join Russia?, I know we are Westerners so people have their ideas that the US is this all saving grace but do list?,
> 
> Also to show how many countries the US has had it's fingers in over time:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions
> ...


I'm not even limiting this to Crimea, or to WW2 Russia. 2014 Russia has no respect for human rights and does not give two shits about international expectations or norms. See the last presidential election for one example of how far removed they are from international standards. 

It's certainly not for me to say that the people of Crimea can't join Russia, but the proper process to do so needs more than 5 weeks notice of the vote, the vote should contain an option that involves staying with Ukraine, and those nice gentlemen holding Russian military guns driving Russian military vehicles probably shouldn't be peering over everyone's shoulder as they vote. 

By comparison, look at the independence movement with Scotland. Self determination is fine, that's why there are processes for it. 

I never once said that the US was the saving grace. I specifically said that it had done some shit things, so please don't put words in my mouth. I said and stand by the statement that you're either dishonest or naive to equate Russia with the US in this context. 

I do chuckle that you said I'm stuck with WW2 Russia (when I'm not - see above) and then you bring up 1980s Afghanistan and that Wikipedia link to support your equivocation of the US and Russia. You see the irony there surely?


----------



## pk.sax (19/7/14)

To be completely honest, who gives a shit what country you live in as long as your life is good, you aren't persecuted for being YOU and reasonably able to look forward to continuing good days.

This splitting and dividing of people is political thuggery, extreme nationalism is another form of bullying and exclusionism. Most sods turning up at a referendum won't have much of an effect on what happens after anyway, despite having an opinion. It's the guys with guns and agendas that shape things. If the wide masses (with opinions or not) mattered then they won't be in the shit they are in. Most 'innocent' people are all too happy to sit by and do nothing but do cry about it when they get in the cross fire.

No, I'm not condoning the perpetrators here but all this interventionist bullshit just prolongs instability and stops the natural will of the WILLING taking it's course. They should all get the **** out of Crimea (including the Ukrainian govt troops and the Russian armed militia) and see how it fares on its own.


----------



## jlm (19/7/14)

practicalfool said:


> To be completely honest, who gives a shit what country you live in as long as your life is good, you aren't persecuted for being YOU and reasonably able to look forward to continuing good days.


AND......you can drink beer and eat bacon. To quote Jim Jefferies..."You take beer and bacon from me and I'll fly a plane into a building."


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/7/14)

Personaly...I think Putin is somewhat pissed off right now. He know everyone going to finger him, and the ramifications are HUGE, to say the least.

He knows someone fucked up, and I can imagine there are 3 guys that fired the missile are absolutley shitting themselves, cause they know the world is angry, and Putin is VERY pissed off


----------



## browndog (19/7/14)

What a crazy world, this is like something out of a Tom Clancy novel, my boss is an ultra runner and one of his fellow runners was lost along with his wife. I hope the dog that gave the order to fire gets what he deserves.


----------



## mje1980 (19/7/14)

pedleyr said:


> Not to be too blunt here but it's either ignorance or dishonesty to assert that what the US does/has done is as morally reprehensible as Russia - keeping in mind that Russia doesn't actually intervene in things that are what you'd call international causes, unless it's to directly further it's own interests. It doesn't participate in international cooperative interventions and in fact tries to block them at every opportunity.
> Putin is a scumbag and Russia are not responsible members of the international community and shouldn't be treated as such. The US aren't perfect but it's not only different leagues, it's a different sort entirely.


Have you ever been to Russia?


----------



## elcarter (19/7/14)

Any one put the flight path into Google maps?

I did and they appear a little higher than the most economical route. The most direct route does take them though another particularity bad flight path but one has to ask did they really have to fly that exact course?

Regardless operating a ground to air missile without the use of some form of IFF is just idiotic.

One does have to realise governments do have at their disposal some pretty interesting tech including a stealth we're are yet to see at our local air show. Air to air is still a possibility and I'm sure they have rigged a ground to air missile to a wing to cover their tracks.


----------



## drew9242 (19/7/14)

Just to let everyone know as it will be on the news tonight anyway. Unfortunately God in His infinite wisdom has taken my parents in this accident. We prayer for every other family in this situation and understand what they may be going through.


----------



## soundawake (19/7/14)

Drew9242 said:


> Just to let everyone know as it will be on the news tonight anyway. Unfortunately God in His infinite wisdom has taken my parents in this accident. We prayer for every other family in this situation and understand what they may be going through.


Absolutely terrible. I am SO sorry to hear of your loss.


----------



## dicko (19/7/14)

Drew9242 said:


> Just to let everyone know as it will be on the news tonight anyway. Unfortunately God in His infinite wisdom has taken my parents in this accident. We prayer for every other family in this situation and understand what they may be going through.


Drew, I am so sorry to hear that news mate.
I don't know you personally but we have communicated both on here and on another forum and I wish to extend to you my commiserations and want you to know that my thoughts are with you and your family during this time.
If you feel you need a chat mate then don't hesitate to PM me.
You are in my thoughts.

Take care,

Dicko


----------



## motch02 (19/7/14)

. I did post a reply but this is just a homebrewing forum no poiny starting a debate.. I've followed this from the very start and am highly pasionate and can refernece a lot of the evebts that have taken place over the course..

I can tell you it is unlikely a rebel group could use a BUK to take down that plane.. and blaming this on russia is not right it happened in Ukraine by Ukrainians


----------



## Neanderthal (19/7/14)

Condolences Drew.
Lets hope this terrible tragerty assists world peace and make it a greater world for all..


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/7/14)

Drew9242 said:


> Just to let everyone know as it will be on the news tonight anyway. Unfortunately God in His infinite wisdom has taken my parents in this accident. We prayer for every other family in this situation and understand what they may be going through.


Mate..

Thats..um....what can one say....


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (20/7/14)

Drew9242 said:


> Just to let everyone know as it will be on the news tonight anyway. Unfortunately God in His infinite wisdom has taken my parents in this accident. We prayer for every other family in this situation and understand what they may be going through.


Mate I am horrified by your loss, having recently lost my mother I understand what you are going through, if you need to talk just give me a call.
Nev


----------



## manticle (20/7/14)

Sorry to hear that Drew.


----------



## Mardoo (20/7/14)

Oh my god Drew, I'm so sorry. So sorry.


----------



## booargy (20/7/14)

Where is the risk analysis? Whoever made the decision for that plane to be there is just as responsible as those who shot it down. I suspect there are politicians rubbing their hands with glee.


----------



## mje1980 (20/7/14)

Why would they be rubbing their hands with glee?


----------



## i-a-n (20/7/14)

Condolences Drew.


----------



## booargy (20/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> Why would they be rubbing their hands with glee?


You don't know what is happening in that part of the world? It is the opportunity to get involved and the words of war are already being recited.


----------



## spog (20/7/14)

Drew,I am so saddened to learn of your loss,condolences from my family to yours and from the AHB family.


----------



## pk.sax (20/7/14)

Condolences to you and the loved ones of all who have lost them. Losing those you love is very hard. There are very few that truly enter our hearts and when they are wrenched away it is as if a bit of us goes missing with them.


----------



## spog (20/7/14)

booargy said:


> Where is the risk analysis? Whoever made the decision for that plane to be there is just as responsible as those who shot it down. I suspect there are politicians rubbing their hands with glee.


Some airlines have not been flying over that area,some have.
To this day many airlines are still flying over Iran,Iraq and Afghanistan .
The airlines flying over the Ukraine have been following international agreements for flight paths over war zones.
Hind sight is a wonderful thing but does not lessen the horror when some mindless prick /pricks act without thinking.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (20/7/14)

spog said:


> Drew,I am so saddened to learn of your loss,condolences from my family to yours and from the AHB family.


I second what spog has said and hopefully from this atrocious act of terrorism some good will come of it, the politicians of the world must now make a strong stance against Putins backing of these mindless terrorists and call for a halt on the bloodshed on the Russian Ukraine border, if they don't those who have lost their lives on that ill fated flight will have died in vain.
It shouldn't matter what business deals the EU countries have going with Russia, that should be the last thing they should be thinking about, this is how Putin manipulates the those EU countries Russia is dealing with


----------



## Steve (20/7/14)

Drew9242 said:


> Just to let everyone know as it will be on the news tonight anyway. Unfortunately God in His infinite wisdom has taken my parents in this accident. We prayer for every other family in this situation and understand what they may be going through.


****! Don't know you from a bar of soap but.......**** what can you say? I hope you and your family all the best and I am sorry to hear that one of our own had lost someone of theirs to a no-one.


----------



## bradsbrew (20/7/14)

Drew, my deepest sympathy and condolences to you and your family.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (20/7/14)

Bummer dude


----------



## dicko (21/7/14)

Someone stole the ground to air missile weapon.....yeah right.
Russia own the fuckin equipment and therefore they are responsible for it.....it is easy to blame some else but ultimately it is Russia who is protecting Ukraine so as to maintain their access to export and import through that country.
FFS why blow a domestic airline out of the sky....just go in and take over the goddam shithole. Like anyone cares when it comes to the scale of what has now happened.
It is nearly time the world had a big cull to sort this shit out....

Mmmmmm did I really say that.....


----------



## Mardoo (21/7/14)

IF what I read is true it takes a great amount of training to use one of those systems and successfully hit a target towards the outside of the weapon's range. Bad excuse. Next one?


----------



## mje1980 (21/7/14)

Thats part of the problem these days, people form strong, passionate opinions about events and people across the other side of the world after reading dodgy websites etc. I don't know what happened and it looks suspect but I've never spent enough time in the region to make an informed opinion, so I'm not ready to start burning flags and start chanting for more bloodshed just yet.


----------



## booargy (21/7/14)

I fly to Amsterdam once a year and I would like to know how a plane gets routed over a war zone. I will be taking more notice of the flight path in the future and changing airline if necessary. If I was a pilot or hostess I would be wanting to see the decision making process. 

For the dicks who think 298 is not enough I have no need to say more.


----------



## manticle (21/7/14)

I was absent from work for most of last week - I returned today to find out that a colleague's husband was on the flight so there's a sombre mood about the place.


----------



## MastersBrewery (21/7/14)

My take on this is very simple, the school yard bully has been caught with his fingers in the cookie jar, and everyone's too scared to call him on it, because they might be his next victim. Allowing a bully to continue, without repercussion, only enforces in the bully's mind they have the right to act as they have previously. Where and when does the International community wish to draw the line.


----------



## Dave70 (21/7/14)

MastersBrewery said:


> My take on this is very simple, the school yard bully has been caught with his fingers in the cookie jar, and everyone's too scared to call him on it, because they might be his next victim. Allowing a bully to continue, without repercussion, only enforces in the bully's mind they have the right to act as they have previously. Where and when does the International community wish to draw the line.


You've basically just described the modus operandi used by every fanaticized l nutjob on the planet. The international community is seemingly more interested in strategic discourse and capitulation than line drawing, wouldn't want to offend anybody or appear insensitive you know. Wouldn't want to 'get involved' is something thats none of our business..

As tragically demonstrated in this thread, we've all potentially got a stake in the affairs of other countries. Like it or not. Acknowledge it or not. 


My sincere condolences for you troubles Drew. 
Stay strong mate.


----------



## mje1980 (21/7/14)

MastersBrewery said:


> My take on this is very simple, the school yard bully has been caught with his fingers in the cookie jar, and everyone's too scared to call him on it, because they might be his next victim. Allowing a bully to continue, without repercussion, only enforces in the bully's mind they have the right to act as they have previously. Where and when does the International community wish to draw the line.


So, what should the international community do?


----------



## MastersBrewery (21/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> So, what should the international community do?


That is indeed a very good question, the better question is how many people need to die before, those responsible are called to account, and all for Putin's of adventurist empire building. 2 plane loads? 3 or 4 perhaps? International conventions are being pissed on and resulting in the Deaths of hundreds, then just to top this off, the victims are left to rot in a field to be looted. There is a great deal the international community could do. I note if there had been one Yank on that plane, access to that site would have been secured by now, even if that meant by force.

MB


----------



## Mardoo (21/7/14)

Booargy my plane flew over Iraq during the second Iraq "war". I watched the pretty fireworks. With some apprehension!


----------



## Feldon (22/7/14)

Here's an report from a Malaysian newspaper. Very different take compared to the mass media coverage here.

HRABOVE (Ukraine): The Dutch head of a team sent to identify the victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 praised the Ukrainian recovery workers who collected hundreds of bodies from a giant swathe of land in a war zone for doing a "hell of a job". 

Peter van Vliet, leader of a three-man team of Dutch body identification experts, the first international investigators to visit the crash area, said his priority would be getting hundreds of bodies now stored in refrigerated rail cars to a location where they can be identified and sent home. 

Despite reports that some of the bodies may have been looted and were never properly secured during days lying out in summer sun, van Vliet expressed admiration for the recovery crews that gathered them. 

"I'm very impressed about the work that was done over here," he said after inspecting the main crash site, where bodies were still being found a day earlier pinned under chunks of aircraft wreckage.

Citing the heat and the scale of the site, he said: "I think they did a hell of a job in a hell of a place." 
Passengers from the Netherlands accounted for two-thirds of the 298 victims of Thursday's disaster. 

more at: http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/21/MH17-Ukraine-team/ (can be very slow to load)

Also briefly reported on the BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28405448

And ABC News 24 ran this a day earlier (Sunday) : http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-20/mh-17-crash-site-journalist-describes-grim-scenes/5609930


----------



## spog (22/7/14)

This Peter van Vliet sounds like a bloke who has respect for the victims and for the locals and helpers over there,and is not interested in the blame game.
Simply doing his job,once the media has wrung all the negativity out of the story they may then focus on the people like him who have no hidden agenda,people who simply care.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/7/14)

it's because our beloved PM has flat out accused the Ukranian locals of messing around with the crash site.
“After the crime comes the cover-up,” and
"What we have seen is evidence-tampering on an industrial scale, and obviously that has to stop,”


----------



## mje1980 (23/7/14)

spog said:


> This Peter van Vliet sounds like a bloke who has respect for the victims and for the locals and helpers over there,and is not interested in the blame game.
> Simply doing his job,once the media has wrung all the negativity out of the story they may then focus on the people like him who have no hidden agenda,people who simply care.



Once the hysteria has gone, the news coverage will just about stop completely. There'll be something else on the news we can all get morally outraged about.


----------



## madpierre06 (23/7/14)

With all due respect to those on AHB who have been impacted by this tragedy and not wishing to divert this into a political flameout, is it too cynical to suggest MV Tampa here? Given Abbot's polling prior too and post this event you have to wonder. When he first came out with his tough talk it all seemed a little too false for mine, particularly the inflammatory statements he was making when at that stage the causes of the tragedy were all supposition.

Back OT...my thoughts and prayers to all those here affected not just for now but over the coming months as this doesn't seem as if it will be resolved quickly and every day it drags out is going to be extremely tough for those who have been affected by the loss of loved ones.


----------



## Dave70 (23/7/14)

Feldon said:


> Here's an report from a Malaysian newspaper. Very different take compared to the mass media coverage here.
> 
> HRABOVE (Ukraine): The Dutch head of a team sent to identify the victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 praised the Ukrainian recovery workers who collected hundreds of bodies from a giant swathe of land in a war zone for doing a "hell of a job".
> 
> ...


Stark contrast indeed with the reports I heard on AM radio this morning claiming over one hundred bodies had simply gone missing and basically painted the Ukrainians as a gaggle of lazy drunken pickpockets.


----------



## Feldon (23/7/14)

Also in stark contrast to US, UK, Aust and Ukrainian views on the cause of this tragedy are 10 questions that the Russians have put to the US and Ukraine, along with releasing radar data and satellite images.

http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/

Always good to consider both sides of the argument.

I suspect the Russians already have the answers to some of these questions and are giving the west enough rope to hang themselves.

In other reports audio recordings of the Ukrainian Air Traffic Control communication with MH17 have been seized by the Ukrainian govt and have not been released (yet) to investigators.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (23/7/14)

yeah, but when that other side is RT..

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/print/412744.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/malaysia-airlines-mh17-phone-tap-separatists-responsibility/5606578


----------



## Feldon (23/7/14)

I think that yarn was put to bed a few days ago. The reported radio intercepts were made public in a YouTube video (of all things). The original recordings, if they ever existed, have not been made public.

The YouTube cobbles together various rebel radio conversations taken from other previous anti-aircraft events over the preceding days. Makes it seem like it all takes place on the day MH17 went down. But the key thing is the creation date on the YouTube video upload is dated the day before MH17 went down.

Edit: here's a link to the YouTube video:


----------



## Dave70 (23/7/14)

I'm sure it's not lost on the parties involved, but if this pans out like the USS Vincennes tragedy in 88, there will most likely be a class action filed by the victims families and involving substantial compensation, and rightly so.
Unfortunately, just another reason to obfuscate the truth.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (23/7/14)

Feldon said:


> I think that yarn was put to bed a few days ago. The reported radio intercepts were made public in a YouTube video (of all things). The original recordings, if they ever existed, have not been made public.
> 
> The YouTube cobbles together various rebel radio conversations taken from other previous anti-aircraft events over the preceding days. Makes it seem like it all takes place on the day MH17 went down. But the key thing is the creation date on the YouTube video upload is dated the day before MH17 went down.
> 
> Edit: here's a link to the YouTube video:



That 'yarn' might have been put to bed a few days ago on conspiracytheoriesrusdotcom, but I don't recall it being put to bed in a court of law.

I wouldn't use the date attached to the video as evidence either, anyone can make a video and put whatever date they like on it.

It was first posted 5 days ago, that makes it the 19th. The plane was shot down on the 17th.

As for doing a 'hell of a job'. There has been looting, tampering of evidence, refusal to allow authorities in to investigate and mis-treatment of bodies. So far there are still approximately 100 bodies missing. That sure is one hell of a job.

There needs to be a bit more respect shown to the families of the victims. Conspiracy theories, based on Russian propaganda, are not a great way of doing that.


----------



## mje1980 (23/7/14)

Conspiracy theories based on any propaganda don't help. Nothing's been proven yet has it ?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/7/14)

In true management style, what did the world leaders decide to do....have a meeting of course...and there still having meetings

And they will continue to just have meetings.....FFS Russia is one of the veto members of the UN Security Council. Do you honestly think they will pass any motion against them.......dont f&^%$g think so

Does Putin really give a ****......I doubt it....


----------



## spog (23/7/14)

Heard an interview with a bloke involved with aviation on the radio today,he was a bit pissed off with the media and said that no one has bothered reporting the fact that 3 well known airlines were 15 minutes behind the MA flight and on the same flight path and height.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/7/14)

yes...but they didnt get shot out of the sky, so its not really newsworthy....


----------



## Liam_snorkel (23/7/14)

fish that got away


----------



## Feldon (23/7/14)

Conspiracy theories? Of course its a conspiracy.

A conspiracy is simply two or more people plotting an illegal act. Is anybody suggesting only one person was involved in bring this plane down – a sole assassin?

Theory? Of course, its all theoretical until the investigation by ICAO (look it up) is conducted and the facts are established.
So at this point in time everyone’s viewpoint is a conspiracy theory – get used to it.

At least the Russians have come forward with hard data and handed it to the EU for analysis. The US and Ukraine have provided diddly squat at the mo but are hell bent on telling the world who did it. Now that is disrespectful. Time to cough up.

As for propaganda, same thing goes. All viewpoints expressed are propaganda – ie. an attempt to propagate ideas. Everything I and you write is propaganda.

We are all conspiracy theorists.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (23/7/14)

There are many families grieving for loved ones lost in this tragedy, some of them are members of this forum and might possibly be reading our comments. 

I just feel that we should be mindful of that when posting and leave the conspiracy theories out of it.


----------



## Feldon (23/7/14)

The mods are happy leaving the thread as it is.


----------



## black_labb (23/7/14)

I spent 3 months in the backwaters of Siberia and have nothing but good things to say about the people. The everyday people have little trust in the government after coming out of communism. I also met quite a few people from other ex USSR states working on the railway lines or civil engineering in remote areas and was impressed with the way people mixed happily and so well and appreciated their differences. The everyday person doesn't have anything to do with the governments reaches for power and doesn't likely support it.

The Russian Government is corrupt and has their own agenda, just like all other governments. I suspect they just aren't as practiced at hiding things and sugarcoating stuff when their is free media around. Compared to the amount of wars America and allies have been in since WWII to increase or protect their influence on different regions and Russia's biggest failing is it's very blunt public relations. I don't like the way the Russian Government supports a lot of intolerance but then again Australia voted in Mr Rabbit. 

On the issue with the passenger jet being taken down, I can't see anyone who could stand to lose more from this than the Russian government. How could it benefit them at all?


----------



## schrodinger (24/7/14)

Feldon said:


> Conspiracy theories? Of course its a conspiracy.
> 
> A conspiracy is simply two or more people plotting an illegal act. Is anybody suggesting only one person was involved in bring this plane down – a sole assassin?
> 
> ...


This is just transparent sophistry -- changing the defintion or interpretation of terms as a method of argument. We all know what we mean when we say "conspiracy theory" and "propaganda".


----------



## Airgead (24/7/14)

Hanlon's Razor - _Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity._

Someone, somewhere for some reason, fucked up big time. We don't need to invent a conspiracy by Russia, Ukraine or anyone. Simple human stupidity is enough to explain it.


----------



## pcmfisher (24/7/14)

Feldon said:


> Feldon, on 23 Jul 2014 - 8:23 PM, said:
> 
> Conspiracy theories? Of course its a conspiracy.
> 
> ...


Just because someone can think something up does not make it credible or even possible.
It is not equally correct until proven wrong.

I assert MH17 was shot down be a flying saucer.
Should this idea be on equal footing to the claim it was shot down by Russian separatists, until you can prove that it wasn't ?


----------



## Feldon (24/7/14)

schrodinger said:


> This is just transparent sophistry -- changing the defintion or interpretation of terms as a method of argument. We all know what we mean when we say "conspiracy theory" and "propaganda".


[SIZE=medium]I’m not changing the definition of the words at all – but you are. You are the sophist here, not me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]My definition of ‘conspiracy’ and ‘propaganda’ are entirely orthodox. Look up any dictionary.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Your meaning is the sophism dating from the 1960s used to put down any viewpoint you don’t agree with,while avoiding rational argument. It’s a cheap hit-and-run approach. [/SIZE]


----------



## Feldon (24/7/14)

pcmfisher said:


> Just because someone can think something up does not make it credible or even possible.
> It is not equally correct until proven wrong.
> 
> I assert MH17 was shot down be a flying saucer.
> Should this idea be on equal footing to the claim it was shot down by Russian separatists, until you can prove that it wasn't ?


 I agree entirely. Different views need to be assessed to see what weight they hold, both on their own and balanced against other competing theories. At the moment the entire US case against Russia comes from a few tweets and social media. If they have anything more they are not forthcoming with it. Yet the Russians have.


----------



## Mardoo (24/7/14)

pcmfisher said:


> I assert MH17 was shot down be a flying saucer.
> Should this idea be on equal footing to the claim it was shot down by Russian separatists, until you can prove that it wasn't ?


Only if you imply it was Obama's shape-changing lizard Secret Service guardians who provided the flying saucer.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (24/7/14)

If only they wore colanders on their heads....



But still....regardless of the wanderings in this thread....the whole event is most unfortunate, and we should always remember that before we go of on weird conspiracy tangents


----------



## Mardoo (24/7/14)

Yep. Not totally happy to have raised humor here. Drew lost his folks.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (24/7/14)

Humour is part of the way Australians deal with tragedy. As long as it is respectfull.


----------



## bradsbrew (24/7/14)

The Dutch have at least given a bit of respect and dignity back to the victims. Lining streets to pay respect to the ones that have been returned.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (24/7/14)

Will be interesting to see how the Chinese go with tracking down the other lost flight.

I hope they do find that plane


----------



## booargy (24/7/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Humour is part of the way Australians deal with tragedy. As long as it is respectfull.


Humor is a way of ignoring the bigger and more complex picture that we don't understand. Not everything is black or white.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (24/7/14)

We, as in us, will never know the big picture


----------



## browndog (24/7/14)

Being a parent and knowing the love associated with it, it makes my blood boil and breaks my heart at the same time to think of the poor innocent children who's lives were so casually snuffed out in this tragedy (and the tragedy occurring in Palestine) it's just so wrong. While I admire the parents of those three lovely kids from Melbourne who spoke so eloquently, I fear I would become an angel of wrath.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (25/7/14)

I agree wholeheartedly with browndog it has now got to the stage I cannot watch the news it is either innocent kids getting killed in the Gaza strip, the innocents getting killed by car bombs in Baghdad and then this Malaysian air disaster.
On top of that we have a bunch of weak politicians in the EU thinking primarily about the trading position with Russia rather than those who's life was cut short the shooting down of that aircraft, and moreover I have not seen what I would regard as political activists guarding the crash site, they look more like mercenaries.


----------



## motch02 (25/7/14)

Interesting story here: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/21/guilt-insinuation-paul-craig-roberts/

"Why hasn’t Washington joined Russian President Putin in calling for an objective, non-politicized international investigation by experts of the case of the Malaysian jetliner?

The Russian government continues to release facts, including satellite photos showing the presence of Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missiles in locations from which the airliner could have been brought down by the missile system and documentation that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet rapidly approached the Malaysian airliner prior to its downing. The head of the Operations Directorate of Russian military headquarters said at a Moscow press conference today (July 21) that the presence of the Ukrainian military jet is confirmed by the Rostov monitoring center."


Despite what mainstream media would have you believe Russia have already submitted a lot of their findings to the UN on the crash, the sad thing is these victims are caught in a game of war. I doubt we'll ever know what happened just like the weapons of mass destruction, the chemical weapons in Syria, and even the US backed take down of Gaddafi.. A shame more people don't wonder why the US needs it's fingers in everyone's pie or should I say sovereign nation?.. I'm unsure if the words transparent and democratic exist in the world today, I cannot watch the news merely for the fact of how numbing it is to hear the ill-informed spin doctors spread their mass hysteria followed by the latest celebrity gossip.. What times we live in! when US security intelligence services are using Twitter!


----------



## browndog (25/7/14)

motch02 said:


> Interesting story here: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/21/guilt-insinuation-paul-craig-roberts/
> 
> "Why hasn’t Washington joined Russian President Putin in calling for an objective, non-politicized international investigation by experts of the case of the Malaysian jetliner?
> 
> ...


The US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Every Australian should be thankful of the efforts of the American Marines in WW2 that ultimately saved Australia from a Japanese invasion. I'm bloody well sure the mothers of those that died on all those shitholes in the Pacific wondered what their boys were doing there.


----------



## mje1980 (25/7/14)

What the hell has that got to do with anything?. I certainly appreciate the USA's support of us in many things, but what has that got to do with the comment you quoted??


----------



## motch02 (25/7/14)

browndog said:


> The US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Every Australian should be thankful of the efforts of the American Marines in WW2 that ultimately saved Australia from a Japanese invasion. I'm bloody well sure the mothers of those that died on all those shitholes in the Pacific wondered what their boys were doing there.


Having a whole nation blind to the fact that you've led more foreign invasions and funded copious regime changes over the past 50 years is probably thanks enough.

Just look at the Iranian revolution, over threw the democratically elected Government and it back fired throwing it in to the Islamic state it is to day. Not to mention the sales of arms to both Iraq and Iran during their war.. And we are seeing it right here in the Ukraine with a nice IMF loan hanging over them that is calling for drastic changes in Parliament that have caused the removal of cabinet and Yatsenyuk removing himself..


----------



## browndog (25/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> What the hell has that got to do with anything?. I certainly appreciate the USA's support of us in many things, but what has that got to do with the comment you quoted??


Just saying re the weapons of mass destruction, US take down of Gaddafi, etc. The US is quick to be blamed for all the worlds ails but also one of the first to be asked why they are not getting involved in others business.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (25/7/14)

Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "Ni" at will to old ladies.


----------



## manticle (25/7/14)

I think it's the selectiveness of their involvement that is mostly under question which is really a questioning of the motives behind involvement. Regardless it's a big stretch to suggest that any of the less savoury actions they've been involved in during the 20th and 21st century should be whitewashed due to their assistance during World War II. A lot has happened in that time.


----------



## Eagleburger (25/7/14)

The US will only make a bed where she can derive some benefit for herself.


----------



## manticle (25/7/14)

Unlike our OWN altruistic government of course.


----------



## Coalminer (25/7/14)

browndog said:


> The US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Every Australian should be thankful of the efforts of the American Marines in WW2 that ultimately saved Australia from a Japanese invasion. I'm bloody well sure the mothers of those that died on all those shitholes in the Pacific wondered what their boys were doing there.


America was totally isolationist during WW2, didn't give a rats arse, and only got involved when Japan hit Pearl Harbour. If not for that event we would be all speaking Japanese now.
And now another Liberal PM wants to get us into a war zone by sending AFP in to guard the area and Aus troops in to protect them.
That can only go wrong


----------



## schrodinger (25/7/14)

Feldon said:


> [SIZE=medium]I’m not changing the definition of the words at all – but you are. You are the sophist here, not me.[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=medium]My definition of ‘conspiracy’ and ‘propaganda’ are entirely orthodox. Look up any dictionary.[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=medium]Your meaning is the sophism dating from the 1960s used to put down any viewpoint you don’t agree with,while avoiding rational argument. It’s a cheap hit-and-run approach. [/SIZE]


No, what you're doing is the very definition of sophistry. Your definitions are literally accurate but not orthodox. "Conspiracy theory" and "propaganda" are universally understood to refer to things much grander and more sinister than minor schemes or polemics by one or a few random morons.

And it's you who avoids rational argument -- I responded to your absurd claim with an argument based on reason, namely that reason says simpler solutions are more likely, and that reason rejects arbitary, untestable assumptions, and you responded with bait-and-switch sophistry by pretending the loaded term you used (conspiracy theory) wasn't really loaded when you used it.

The whole allure of conspiracy theories (in the sense of the term understood by the rest of us) is that, like religions, they're inherently impossible to disprove. They define themselves out of testability, because they can draw on a bottomless well of nameless, as-yet-unidentified conspirators:

"What's that? The records contradict my theory? Well, somebody must have changed them."
"What's that? They found the rocket launcher in a rebel's ute, and it was Russian-made? Well, the CIA must have paid off the rebel and given him a US-made replica of a Russian launcher."
"What's that? A fossil's been dated to 10,000 years ago? Well, the devil must have put it there to tempt me out of my belief in Genesis."

The world consists of two kinds of people: those who take comfort in beliefs not grounded in evidence, and those who find such beliefs comical.


----------



## browndog (25/7/14)

Coalminer said:


> America was totally isolationist during WW2, didn't give a rats arse, and only got involved when Japan hit Pearl Harbour. If not for that event we would be all speaking Japanese now.
> And now another Liberal PM wants to get us into a war zone by sending AFP in to guard the area and Aus troops in to protect them.
> That can only go wrong


Agreed, nothing can turn back time. The Leaders need to tread very lightly.


----------



## Eagleburger (25/7/14)

I may rightly be accused of being simplistic, but I am not going to let the neighbours rottweiller, chew my ball, that landed in his yard. At the first instance, a sizable force from a country with a stake in the incident, should have secured the scene. The main reason being, force is something the locals understand and respect.


----------



## Dave70 (25/7/14)

Coalminer said:


> America was totally isolationist during WW2, didn't give a rats arse, and only got involved when Japan hit Pearl Harbour. If not for that event we would be all speaking Japanese now.


So?
At least we'd be bilingual and produce a range of quality motor vehicles and electronic equipment.
Whats the problem?


----------



## goomboogo (25/7/14)

Dave70 said:


> So?
> At least we'd be bilingual and produce a range of quality motor vehicles and electronic equipment.
> Whats the problem?


The problem? Miso, more Miso. That would be a problem.


----------



## browndog (25/7/14)

Dave70 said:


> So?
> At least we'd be bilingual and produce a range of quality motor vehicles and electronic equipment.
> Whats the problem?


Mmmmm long working hrs too. But I never meant to derail this thread. Lets keep it on topic and respectful.


----------



## Dave70 (25/7/14)

goomboogo said:


> The problem? Miso, more Miso. That would be a problem.


We developed a taste for Vegemite. At breakfast time. Miso would be a doddle.


----------



## mje1980 (25/7/14)

Yeah great idea, sending foreign troops in as a knee jerk reaction before any fact is established. Great idea


I was replying to eagle burger


----------



## motch02 (25/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> Yeah great idea, sending foreign troops in as a knee jerk reaction before any fact is established. Great idea
> 
> 
> I was replying to eagle burger


haha do you want to see some facts? some real hard evidence? 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe3_1406258203

Just assertions with no basis!, shameful!


----------



## pk.sax (25/7/14)

Coalminer said:


> And now another Liberal PM wants to get us into a war zone by sending AFP in to guard the area and Aus troops in to protect them.
> That can only go wrong


Downsizing of the public service.


----------



## Eagleburger (25/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> Yeah great idea, sending foreign troops in as a knee jerk reaction before any fact is established. Great idea
> 
> 
> I was replying to eagle burger


Airliner shot down in a rebel held area of a country undergoing revolution. established as fact within 12hrs.

maybe its just me, but negotiating with rebels with no single command hierarchy, sounds like an anxious and a probably drawn out experience. Due to the Netherlands being extreme left and their military was washing their pink frocks that day, that is what they got.


----------



## manticle (25/7/14)

Extreme left is stalinism and/or maoism, not holland. Might as well call Malcolm fraser extreme right.
Extreme left is far from pink frocks and far from desirable.


----------



## Feldon (25/7/14)

Eagleburger said:


> Airliner shot down in a rebel held area of a country undergoing revolution. established as fact within 12hrs.
> 
> maybe its just me, but negotiating with rebels with no single command hierarchy, sounds like an anxious and a probably drawn out experience. Due to the Netherlands being extreme left and their military was washing their pink frocks that day, that is what they got.


"the Netherlands being extreme left" - Where have you been the last 15 years. Among the most rabid right-wingers in NATO.

"no single command hierarchy" - No.

See: http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/23/MH17-Malaysia-quietly-worked-back-channels/ 

This story shows what a real statesman and leader of his country has been doing behind the scenes in recent days. And as far as I can tell the story has been completely unreported in Australian/US/UK etc media. Edit: My bad, have found a similar report in New York Times Asia edition (see follow-up post below)

However, there is plenty of coverage of bellicose Abbot and Bishop strutting the world stage claiming to have influenced outcomes and making threats to those in east Ukraine who have actually helped us out. Not that Rudd or Gillard or Turnball would be doing anything different. That's the scary thing - when international events like MH17 occur we suddenly become a one party state, with all media outlets (Fairfax, Murdoch, ABC etc) running the same editorial line.

Lesson: you will not understand what is going on here by only accessing western mainstream media.


----------



## pedleyr (25/7/14)

Coalminer said:


> America was totally isolationist during WW2, didn't give a rats arse, and only got involved when Japan hit Pearl Harbour. If not for that event we would be all speaking Japanese now.
> And now another Liberal PM wants to get us into a war zone by sending AFP in to guard the area and Aus troops in to protect them.
> That can only go wrong


Google "Lend lease" then see if you want to revisit this.


----------



## browndog (25/7/14)

Feldon said:


> "the Netherlands being extreme left" - Where have you been the last 15 years. Among the most rabid right-wingers in NATO.
> 
> "no single command hierarchy" - No.
> 
> ...


So Feldon, you can vouch for the Online Star?


----------



## Eagleburger (25/7/14)

I guess "extreme left" was not what I meant. Politics has never been my forte.


----------



## Eagleburger (25/7/14)

Eagleburger said:


> I guess "extreme left" was not what I meant. More like , the nuts are clutched by the left. Politics has never been my forte.


----------



## Feldon (25/7/14)

browndog said:


> So Feldon, you can vouch for the Online Star?


Personally, yes, especially when the factual points are confirmed by media outlets in the west.

eg. see: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/world/asia/prime-minister-najib-razaks-intervention-on-flight-17-pays-off.html?_r=0


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (25/7/14)

Dave70 said:


> So?
> At least we'd be bilingual and produce a range of quality motor vehicles and electronic equipment.
> Whats the problem?




And maybe a Holden would be worth buying.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (25/7/14)

browndog said:


> So Feldon, you can vouch for the Online Star?



It's a Malaysian Chinese tabloid 'news' site. In Malaysia, there isn't freedom of press like there is in the countries that are supposedly not telling us the real story. 

I'm not sure how one can be so certain that the news is factual when it comes from a place without such freedoms.

Is there freedom of press in Malaysia.


----------



## Feldon (25/7/14)

Black Devil Dog said:


> It's a Malaysian Chinese tabloid 'news' site. In Malaysia, there isn't freedom of press like there is in the countries that are supposedly not telling us the real story.
> 
> I'm not sure how one can be so certain that the news is factual when it comes from a place without such freedoms.
> 
> Is there freedom of press in Malaysia.


See above.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (25/7/14)

Feldon said:


> See above.


So it's got credibility because it's printed in a Western newspaper? I thought they weren't telling you the truth.

Maybe they're both lying to you.............hope you've got plenty of foil.


----------



## Feldon (25/7/14)

browndog said:


> The US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Every Australian should be thankful of the efforts of the American Marines in WW2 that ultimately saved Australia from a Japanese invasion. I'm bloody well sure the mothers of those that died on all those shitholes in the Pacific wondered what their boys were doing there.


A planned Japanese invasion of Australia in WWII is regarded as a myth by the principal historian of the Australian War Memorial.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/05/31/1022569832145.html


----------



## spog (25/7/14)

browndog said:


> The US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Every Australian should be thankful of the efforts of the American Marines in WW2 that ultimately saved Australia from a Japanese invasion. I'm bloody well sure the mothers of those that died on all those shitholes in the Pacific wondered what their boys were doing there.


My take on your post,
The Marines DID NOT save AUS .As I have read the Jap lines were over extended and the Chocos ,( Ausssie militia,now known as the reserves) were the first land army to inflict a defeat upon the Japanese military.Kokoda.
Historical research has stated that the Japs had at the time no intention of invading AUS because the known materials they required were to be had in the Pacific region.
Admiral Yamamoto is quoted after the attack on Pearl Harbour to have said " I fear we have awoken the sleeping giant ".
The fight agains the Japs was done by Aussies,Aussie soldiers,Aussie airforce ,Aussie navy,the Coastwhatcers being from many countries,American airforce ,American navy,Marines,Army,British forces ( never forgotten ) India,Africa etc.
This belief that America saved our arses is crap,the claim that America will do this or that is more crap. ( not directed at you).
It pisses me off that so many people and the media always have to bring up the " American " angle/ claim/ hint, blah blah.
And then....ahh **** me ,now I've lost track of what my rant was actually about, Oh yes now I remember,it's all about some **** pressing a button and killing a plane load of innocents.....people just people..........


----------



## pedleyr (25/7/14)

Are you seriously suggesting that the US didn't do any heavy lifting in the war in the Pacific? Because you've specifically said that the fight against the Japanese was done by Aussies.


----------



## browndog (25/7/14)

So we lost about 9,500 in and around New Guinea and America 110,000 or there abouts throughout the Pacific. Sorry Spog, can't agree with you at all.


----------



## pcmfisher (26/7/14)

We should have known that the Japanese planes were just on a joy flight over Darwin in 1942...


----------



## booargy (26/7/14)

reds under the bed are so outdated. get with the times it is now terrorists and extremists that we should be fear full of.


----------



## pedleyr (26/7/14)

pcmfisher said:


> We should have known that the Japanese planes were just on a joy flight over Darwin in 1942...


And those subs in Sydney harbour were just lost. 

I'm not saying that there was an imminent invasion but you're frankly dumb if you say that there was no risk to Australia.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (26/7/14)

Isolation can be a blessing.
Nev


----------



## motch02 (26/7/14)

its not really about who saved who back in WW2 its about today and people counting America as this global police force, when clearly they are pushing their own agenda. Spying on friends and locking away individuals who have revealed just what a malignant machine it has become.

20+ million Russians lost their lives saving their homeland, but people care little about the Eastern front..Could judge the ethics of dropping two A bombs on an opponent that had just as well given up..


----------



## schrodinger (27/7/14)

motch02 said:


> its not really about who saved who back in WW2 its about today and people counting America as this global police force, when clearly they are pushing their own agenda. Spying on friends and locking away individuals who have revealed just what a malignant machine it has become.
> 
> 20+ million Russians lost their lives saving their homeland, but people care little about the Eastern front..Could judge the ethics of dropping two A bombs on an opponent that had just as well given up..


I agree America is pushing its own agenda and spying on its friends, but I think it's naive to single them out for it. Every nation, ever, has done exactly that, to the greatest extent possible. The US just happens to be the most powerful nation at the moment, so it has the greatest footprint and attracts the most criticism. Australia is no less parochial and selfish; it's just less powerful.

RE individuals being "locked away": whom are you referring to?


----------



## motch02 (27/7/14)

Edward Snowden, Manning, John kiriakou.. It's just mostly a poke at the free press debate these guys released some of the most riveting eye opening documentation and were jailed for it. You need these guys to be the 'transparent' state the US portrays itself as though they have Guantanamo Bay it doesn't exactly scream transparency an democracy at me


----------



## schrodinger (27/7/14)

motch02 said:


> Edward Snowden, Manning, John kiriakou.. It's just mostly a poke at the free press debate these guys released some of the most riveting eye opening documentation and were jailed for it. You need these guys to be the 'transparent' state the US portrays itself as though they have Guantanamo Bay it doesn't exactly scream transparency an democracy at me


I totally agree the US is not transparent. But neither is Australia, or any other country. The idea of a totally transparent democracy is not realistic -- secrets are unavoidable and necessary when dealing with other countries. Any country would brand as a criminal anyone who released classified information without authorisation, unless the information fell under whistleblower protections because it documented violations of the law. Some of what Snowden and Manning released fell in that category but the vast majority did not. It was just embarassing.

I agree about Kiriakou -- that was sickening to me, and a real discredit to the US. Likewise, Guantanamo is shameful and absurdly inconsistent with the political principles that the US claims to project.


----------



## spog (27/7/14)

pedleyr said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that the US didn't do any heavy lifting in the war in the Pacific? Because you've specifically said that the fight against the Japanese was done by Aussies.


No I am not and no I Did not.


----------



## pedleyr (27/7/14)

Yes you did mate - direct quote:

"The fight agains the Japs was done by Aussies,Aussie soldiers,Aussie airforce ,Aussie navy,the Coastwhatcers being from many countries,American airforce ,American navy,Marines,Army,British forces ( never forgotten ) India,Africa etc.
This belief that America saved our arses is crap"

If you say you weren't saying that the US didn't do any heavy lifting then I take you at your word there but you definitely did say that the fight against the Japanese was done by Aussies, I'm not sure what inference you were making with it but you definitely said it.


----------



## Dave70 (28/7/14)

motch02 said:


> Edward Snowden, Manning, John kiriakou.. It's just mostly a poke at the free press debate these guys released some of the most riveting eye opening documentation and were jailed for it. You need these guys to be the 'transparent' state the US portrays itself as though they have Guantanamo Bay it doesn't exactly scream transparency an democracy at me


You're pushing an open door with me at least when you assert the US has much to account for. But on balance, I'd insist the western model of democratic society and government is a better deal for the majority and more conducive to the well being of citizens than anything else I can think of. Its not perfect, and its full of inequities, and I sit typing this from my shabby, but comfortable heated office, not a bunker or sewer with a ADSL connection. So be it. 

But what would you prefer? What changes would like to see implemented? 

I get the sentiment of 'transparency' but lets not bullshit ourselves. The truth hurts, and even when it's as plain as day, its more comfortable to address ugly conflicts euphemistically, ie, the Bosnia-Herzegovina conflict was reported expressly as a Serb / Croat / Albanian war rather than a christian orthodox / muslim war (massacre). Think Srebrenica, think 'ethnic cleansing'. Being Albanian wasn't your main problem, but being muslim earn't you a sledge hammer to the head. 
In a similar vein to the current Israel/Palestine conflict. Both teams believe god has got their back. Both believe god has promised them the same patch of ground. But it's easier to just report about those land grabbing Jews and Hezbollah human shield policy rather than get all complicated and state their both acting in accordance with the same batshit crazy doctrine. 

So do you think we're really comfortable with that kind of 'transparency', or rather the western liberal kind that may see a president impeached or the CEO of a multinational in the dock?


----------



## motch02 (28/7/14)

I'm no political science major, but my biggest problem is people simply do not know, at the end of the day the world is a conundrum. The truth may hurt but that's no reason to lock yourself in the cupboard or behind your TV screen being spoon fed garbage and celebrity gossips and it's really eaten at me with the war in Syria and Ukraine.

The US are funding militias in Syria that are lopping the heads off civilians, and for what? Assad is a zoo keeper and maintained peace among a vast variety of religions.. They ousted Gaddafi and now Libya is in chaos. They've installed puppets across the globe this is no true political system, it's aim is a one world solution. You've got once again the Iranian revolution which was about oil, and deposed a democratically elected government, but these are the good guys.. 

They aided in the coup against a democratic Ukraine and have created a civil war with an IMF loan looming, yet they are the good guy. Words such as 'Russian missile', 'Rebel-held territory', are all phrases the media have used for this tragedy but they don't mean anything. All the missiles are Russian, Ukraine has been Russia's brother and is the home of early Russia they have Russian weaponry. America has no right sending "foreign aid" like they are helping it is simply that Ukraine is their asset now.

We could go on to discuss the war in Syria and that the US are funding militias there that have been lopping the heads off of civilians, Assad is basically a zoo keeper he managed to keep a lot of religions at peace until foreign money armed extremist militants. Gaddafi was praised in the 80s with cheap oil for his people, and state funded food stores now after NATO had it's way it is a lawless state and heading for another civil war. This is no solution. 

NATO is basically a US puppet, if it ever had any major backlash for something it had done it would just dissolve and the next global alliance treaty would be made. All shiny and brand new.

To go to your first question, political ideology is hard because people simply are not the same in ideas and wants. I'd prefer a society more geared towards Anarchy and Collectivism, but it's because I feel I could thrive and engage in such a world other might not. It's the way we've created this world around us that has people see Democracy/Capitalism (possibly soon a plutocracy?) as this driving force and greater solution. Though we are simply destroying the planet with these ideals. The fear I have most is a one world solution and prospect of an Orwell 1984 with the added help of technology, which could rid 'free will'. *Sorry this is a derailment and only my view*

At the end of the day no one solution is correct but there's hypocrisy in the world and something very questionable about MH17. Israel is another topic yet one that is extremely intriguing


----------



## motch02 (28/7/14)

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE18iPQ1Euk#t=68[/media]

Here's a little video/documentary I've been flicking through if you want to see what Eastern Ukraine is like at the moment, very interesting


----------



## mje1980 (28/7/14)

motch02 said:


> I'm no political science major, ********* ( But im about to spell out world politics in truth, completely factual from stuff I've read on the net, my personal opinion, even though I've never been to those countries ever, and really, it's just stuff people have known for years. No need for proof, enough people believe what I'm about to write so it just has to be true ) *********** but my biggest problem is people simply do not know, at the end of the day the world is a conundrum. The truth may hurt but that's no reason to lock yourself in the cupboard or behind your TV screen being spoon fed garbage and celebrity gossips and it's really eaten at me with the war in Syria and Ukraine.
> 
> The US are funding militias in Syria that are lopping the heads off civilians, and for what? Assad is a zoo keeper and maintained peace among a vast variety of religions.. They ousted Gaddafi and now Libya is in chaos. They've installed puppets across the globe this is no true political system, it's aim is a one world solution. You've got once again the Iranian revolution which was about oil, and deposed a democratically elected government, but these are the good guys..
> 
> ...



Fixed it for you


----------



## motch02 (28/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> Fixed it for you


wow!, it's extremely rude to adjust a post.. Please feel free to engage in at least a constructive manor

I never said I was spelling out anything these are simply my thoughts, if you have others please I'm interested but don't be childish and slap words on my post..

What did I say that wasn't factual in your eyes? and to be truthful I've been to Kiev and Chernobyl.. Kiev was great though no doubt has changed, I love Eastern Europe it has such a different feel to it though I've only ever been as a backpacker. I didn't know that travelling somewhere gave you a right to speak about it, I've been to Israel and Jordan does being 100km from the Syria border during a civil war give me more right to speak about it?


----------



## pcmfisher (28/7/14)

motch02 said:


> motch02, on 28 Jul 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:
> 
> *I'd prefer a society more geared towards Anarchy and Collectivism*, but it's because I feel I could thrive and engage in such a world other might not.


Like the former USSR?
I can't imagine how you think you would thrive. 
Nobody else did.


----------



## motch02 (28/7/14)

pcmfisher said:


> Like the former USSR?
> I can't imagine how you think you would thrive.
> Nobody else did.


There's a handful of small communities that live to this model, really just an ideal more than anything


----------



## manticle (28/7/14)

The USSR had very little to do with anarcho-syndicalist model, pcmfisher and it's disingenous to suggest Stalinism or Russian Communism have anything in common with it.


----------



## Boozy the clown (28/7/14)

I like beer.


----------



## Feldon (28/7/14)

Article in _Counterpunch _magazine giving perspective on the mainstream media reporting of the MH17 tragedy over the last week or so.

*A Tale of Three Aircraft Tragedies - **Russia Bashing: Hatred, Hysteria and Humbug*

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/25/russia-bashing-hatred-hysteria-and-humbug/


----------



## Feldon (28/7/14)

motch02 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE18iPQ1Euk#t=68
> 
> Here's a little video/documentary I've been flicking through if you want to see what Eastern Ukraine is like at the moment, very interesting


That should be aired on Australian TV to show the background to the MH17 tragedy in Ukraine.

Graphic, sad and frightening.


----------



## booargy (28/7/14)

pcmfisher said:


> Like the former USSR?
> I can't imagine how you think you would thrive.
> Nobody else did.


You have no idea what you are talking about. Putin is one.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (28/7/14)

The former USSR may have started off with good intentions, the Bolshevik doctrine incorporated collectivism as well as Marxist views but it didn't take the faithful masses long to realise that they had disposed of one ruler for another especially when Stalin came to power against the wishes of Lenin.
As for Putin he was one who supported the farce which was to be the coup against Gorbachev and restore the power of the communist party and the USSR but switched sides when the coup failed.
Now he is in power and he goes through the motions of democracy,it must really irk him that he just the ruler of Russia and not the USSR.


----------



## Vini2ton (28/7/14)

China is and will be for a long time the most powerful country in the world. Silence is deafening about err err everything. You can see how it will end can't you?


----------



## pedleyr (28/7/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> The former USSR may have started off with good intentions, the Bolshevik doctrine incorporated collectivism as well as Marxist views but it didn't take the faithful masses long to realise that they had disposed of one ruler for another especially when Stalin came to power against the wishes of Lenin.
> As for Putin he was one who supported the farce which was to be the coup against Gorbachev and restore the power of the communist party and the USSR but switched sides when the coup failed.
> Now he is in power and he goes through the motions of democracy,it must really irk him that he just the ruler of Russia and not the USSR.


You think that irks him? Imagine how pissed off he was when he had to let Medvedev be president for a while. Thankfully when they'd upheld the appearance for the mandated time, not a moment more, order was restored.


----------



## pk.sax (28/7/14)

The Chinese will build a matrix to store the rest of the world's population so everyone can exist in peace. Finally.

The saviour nation.

Did someone notice? This is way off topic. It is like the tragedy is yet another domino in the implausible world we have come to live in. Peace be to those who are given up everyday in somebody else's race to make a point.


----------



## pedleyr (28/7/14)

You know what I can't fathom? How the US doing some (or lots, whatever you want to call it) shit things makes Russia squeaky clean. 

What happened that I missed that made Russia good international citizens? 

Note, comment not about the Russian people, who I found to be the most accommodating people you could meet when I went there.


----------



## mje1980 (29/7/14)

Who knew a home brew forum was the place to go for expert opinion on world politics?


----------



## Eagleburger (29/7/14)

It's better than any news piece. If there enough posts you are likely to get both sides of the story, reasons why yousshouldn't trust either and lead up discussion. You just need to learn to decipher what youread.


----------



## Dave70 (29/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> Who knew a home brew forum was the place to go for expert opinion on world politics?


The interwebs has made amateur foreign correspondents of us all don't you know. I bags being George Negus. 



pedleyr said:


> You know what I can't fathom? How the US doing some (or lots, whatever you want to call it) shit things makes Russia squeaky clean.
> 
> What happened that I missed that made Russia good international citizens?
> 
> Note, comment not about the Russian people, who I found to be the most accommodating people you could meet when I went there.


It's odd how it goes. 
But look around at the moment, and this is something I've particularly noticed on social media . If an Israeli missile inadvertently kills innocent civilians in Gaza, they're lambasted ad nauseum.
However, if a Hezbollah operative detonates himself on a crowded bus, market or checkpoint, they're just kicking out against the occupation. 

I'm not suggesting for a second that the Israelis are squeaky clean, far from it, but make no mistake, we could all wake up tomorrow to the news that the Gaza strip and its occupants has been blasted into the Mediterranean sea via Israeli rockets, air strikes and artillery. They could do it, no problem at all. But choose not to. 
Reverse the situation and give Hamas a turn at the controls, and I'd bet my house that would be precisely the news we'd be waking up to.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (29/7/14)

pedleyr said:


> You know what I can't fathom? How the US doing some (or lots, whatever you want to call it) shit things makes Russia squeaky clean.
> 
> What happened that I missed that made Russia good international citizens?
> 
> Note, comment not about the Russian people, who I found to be the most accommodating people you could meet when I went there.


Putin is a charismatic leader who not only won on the Russian version of the voice but also introduced the Highway Code.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=177gGnMHBPU


----------



## Dave70 (29/7/14)

Light entertainment is Russian president specialty.

http://youtu.be/R-z9wfueMAw


----------



## pedleyr (29/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> Who knew a home brew forum was the place to go for expert opinion on world politics?


If you want to say something come out and say it, you're entitled to a viewpoint.


----------



## mje1980 (30/7/14)

My viewpoint is that people love to have a viewpoint/opinion on just about anything, regardless of if they actually know anything about it, or just going off the latest headline, or better yet, what "they reckon".


----------



## Airgead (30/7/14)

pedleyr said:


> If you want to say something come out and say it, you're entitled to a viewpoint.


My viewpoint is that pretty much everyone on here is full of shit and have forgotten that there are folks on here who have lost family in this. They probably don't want to watch a bunch of internet experts use their tragedy as an excuse to have a pissing contest online.


----------



## motch02 (30/7/14)

Hey it's a forum - a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

I think everyone discussed issues and have not spoken down on the tragedy, to not discuss something because people died is a poor argument, I think as long as people discuss without throwing obscenities it is a great discussion.. 

I don't know who the experts are any more? where do people find experts? The Internet is the number one source for any and all information I think you can take upon a variety of news articles in a matter of minutes.. I wouldn't be counting news corp as my experts, or the Today show that's for sure.


----------



## schrodinger (30/7/14)

I see where you're coming from, Airgead, but I agree with motch on this one. At least the discussions here are usually relatively polite. Unlike most other forums I've spent time on, it's usually neither an echo chamber nor a screaming contest -- in either of which there's no chance of anyone's opinion changing. I find I learn stuff from the discussions here. Otherwise there'd be no point, right?


----------



## Feldon (28/10/14)

Dutch investigators now looking at whether MH17 was shot down by another aircraft (ie. air-to-air attack rather than ground-to-air).

*MH17 prosecutor open to theory another plane shot down airliner: Der Spiegel*

Dutch prosecutors investigating the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 believe the aircraft might have been shot down from the air but that a ground-to-air missile attack is more likely, a senior prosecutor said in a German media interview.

The Russian government has always said it has radar imagery proving the fully laden Boeing 777 was shot down by a Ukrainian military aircraft flying in its vicinity, but Western officials have never publicly accepted this scenario...


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/27/us-ukraine-crisis-mh-idUSKBN0IG1X420141027?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter

The story is a day old ( edit: about 12 hrs old) but as far as I can determine has yet to be reported by Australian media. But it will eventually after a unified cross-media position is determined by Govt.

Meanwhile, with winter approaching, no wreckage is being recovered for analysis.


----------



## spog (28/10/14)

Der Spiegel if I remember has a poor rep,bit like the No Idea and the Get a Life rags sold here.


----------

