# The Ultimate Brewing Rig



## chappo1970 (8/6/11)

Fellow Brewerhood,

Whilst I know this topic will be a how long is a piece of string, how much money is too much money to spend on a rig and completely subjective to the individual brewer, I love full automation, I hate the idea of automation, I imagine, I am curious as to what you think would be the ultimate brewery? Anywho lets get started....

I am in the throws of planning Sherman Mk3, and whilst I was busily sketching schematics for plumbing, electrical, vessels, rig layout and a like it dawned on me that I am really starting from scratch, a blank canvass as it were. You see when I built my last two rigs they were just a progression from K&K to AG to more advanced AG brewing techniques. I more or less scavenged parts and bits as I went on from previous rigs, junk yards, other brewers and bought what I needed (sometimes what I didn't need either). I also had no real preconceived idea's when I was upgrading. Sure I researched and asked questions but now I am faced with knowledge. No only from what I learned along the way previously but also from what I seen, a lot of your rigs in the flesh, brew days etc. And I can say not one rig is the same as the other. Many brewers employ many different bits and pieces as well as methods and processes to get to basically the same result. Good Beer. But if you had the chance to start from a blank page what would you do?

I guess from my point of view some of the things I have jotted down as a design brief to myself for my ultimate rig are:

1. 3 vessel system capable of single and double batches
2. Easy to clean, pull down and set up
3. Incorporates HERMS (nothing against RIMS fella's it's just a little finicky for me)
4. Automated mashing incorporating the HERMS
5. All Stainless
6. As compact as possible so as to take up the least amount of space in the brewery (Sherman Mk1 and Mk2 were way too big and cumbersome)
7. Full electric rig.
8. All areas and plumbing easily accessible to fix on the fly or clean when needed.
9. Plug and play. In other words plug in the power and water, tip in the grains and way I go.
10. Bomb proof consistency.
11. Anti boil over device ( :lol: that would be the most over used part of the rig)

Anyway those are my thoughts to date but would be interested in hearing yours.

Cheers

Chap Chap


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## bum (8/6/11)

Walk before you run.

I suggest a few kit brews until you get the basics down.


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## kirem (8/6/11)

bum said:


> Walk before you run.
> 
> I suggest a few kit brews until you get the basics down.


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## Supra-Jim (8/6/11)

Check this site out Chap Chap:

www.theelectricbrewery.com

It is a very neat system, probably covers most of the things you are looking for. I'm currently building a new rig (and learning to TIG at the same time) and I'm basing quite a bit of my setup around the design on here.

Cheers SJ


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## Supra-Jim (8/6/11)

And if that's not what your after, check out the thread for the fully automated brewery by Bandito on here, if you start building now, you might get something up and running before he does!

Cheers SJ


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## goomboogo (8/6/11)

Purchase a Baumeister. It meets most of your requirements. It's what I would do if I was starting over.


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## QldKev (8/6/11)

bum said:


> Walk before you run.
> 
> I suggest a few kit brews until you get the basics down.




He is talking about a brew rig for kits.

1. 3 vessel system capable of single and double batches 
ie. Kit + yeast bag + fermenter

2. Easy to clean, pull down and set up
automated fermenter cleaner

3. Incorporates HERMS (nothing against RIMS fella's it's just a little finicky for me)
recirc water from the pot his kit is in

4. Automated mashing incorporating the HERMS
robot arm to tip kit into fermenter

5. All Stainless
ss pot for the kit

6. As compact as possible so as to take up the least amount of space in the brewery (Sherman Mk1 and Mk2 were way too big and cumbersome)
max of a 1.7kg kit

7. Full electric rig.
electric can opener

8. All areas and plumbing easily accessible to fix on the fly or clean when needed.
small table to sit the kit onto

9. Plug and play. In other words plug in the power and water, tip in the grains and way I go.
temp controled herms 

10. Bomb proof consistency.
metal fermenter

11. Anti boil over device ( that would be the most over used part of the rig)
stop his kettle from over flowing incase he wants water for flushing his kit out and a coffee at the same time


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## Bizier (8/6/11)

I like the idea of the PID on the kettle in that brewery in that link. That is one easy way to lock off your boil as a variable.


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## schooey (8/6/11)

Seriously...

1. 3 vessel system capable of single and double batches.. Why do you need three, do you have some spare space that needs wasting?
2. Easy to clean, pull down and set up ✔✔✔
3. Incorporates HERMS (nothing against RIMS fella's it's just a little finicky for me) Pfft...
4. Automated mashing incorporating the HERMS ✔
5. All Stainless ✔
6. As compact as possible so as to take up the least amount of space in the brewery (Sherman Mk1 and Mk2 were way too big and cumbersome) ✔
7. Full electric rig. ✔
8. All areas and plumbing easily accessible to fix on the fly or clean when needed. ✔
9. Plug and play. In other words plug in the power and water, tip in the grains and way I go. ✔
10. Bomb proof consistency. ✔
11. Anti boil over device ( that would be the most over used part of the rig) I hear nothing is boil over proof at Chappo Manor... 

JUst do it... you'll never look back


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## chappo1970 (8/6/11)

Supra-Jim said:


> Check this site out Chap Chap:
> 
> www.theelectricbrewery.com
> 
> ...




Ha ha only just listened to the Podcast last week on this Dude. I have seen the site before but thanks for reminding me SJ. I'm going to study it in detail and then show these Yanks how it's really done!   

Chap Chap


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## Bribie G (8/6/11)

Award winning beer producing double batch setup:

Ticks all the boxes, doesn't boil over and I got a wicked Herms trying to lift one of them while full. B)


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## chappo1970 (8/6/11)

Bribie? Does the clock auto switch off the pillow case?





bum said:


> Walk before you run.
> 
> I suggest a few kit brews until you get the basics down.



Oh you are so funny Bum <_< 

:lol: I guess I deserve a bit of that.


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## bum (8/6/11)

BribieG said:


>


Man, your brew days are really passive-aggressive. I wouldn't take guff like that from my esky.


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## winkle (8/6/11)

Add CIP to the list.
(Not the Brad version)

If you got a Baumeister you could mount it on the back of the rat rod with a genset - Beer mobile!  (assuming its still in your hot little hands)


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## MeLoveBeer (8/6/11)

BribieG said:


>



Its one small change away from being the ultimate brew rig... Need to hang the clock around the neck of the urn on the right with a chain (it'd look wicked)


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## ekul (8/6/11)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry782258


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## Cannibal Smurf (8/6/11)

I'm at about the same place in designing my new rig Chap Chap, so will be following this thread with interest to steal some ideas off you. 

Looking at 2V or 3V w/HERMS, semi-automated capable of single/double/50L batches.


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## Paul H (8/6/11)

Chappo said:


> Fellow Brewerhood,
> 
> Whilst I know this topic will be a how long is a piece of string, how much money is too much money to spend on a rig and completely subjective to the individual brewer, I love full automation, I hate the idea of automation, I imagine, I am curious as to what you think would be the ultimate brewery? Anywho lets get started....
> 
> ...



Hey Chap haven't you still got those plans that we drew up for the rig you were building for me?  

Cheers

Paul


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## QldKev (8/6/11)

BribieG said:


> Award winning beer producing double batch setup:
> 
> Ticks all the boxes, doesn't boil over and I got a wicked Herms trying to lift one of them while full. B)




I was going to say the clock is wrong, but it wasn't :blink:


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## Malted (8/6/11)

schooey said:


> View attachment 46236




Why don't you build a smaller hybrid version of the 200L unit? It has been done before...
Gopha's rig:


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## argon (8/6/11)

To pick up on a few of your points;



> 6. As compact as possible so as to take up the least amount of space in the brewery (Sherman Mk1 and Mk2 were way too big and cumbersome)


For a compact rig (If you don't want a Braumeister) i'd be looking at a similar setup to a Blichmann Brew Sculpture. I'm assuming you mean compact as in, not taking up much floor space? Otherwise something like franko's setup with 70L vessels would do the job.



> 7. Full electric rig.


I just a had a chat with my electrician neighbour on the weekend and was asking what it would take to upgrade my system to full electric. My current board is 80amp and has maybe 40amp spare room if i want it. Naturally i asked about 20amp outlets... he said not worth it... why not just put in a 32amp circuit with 3 10amp outlets in for the brewery? That way run 3 x 2200w elements (in my case 1 for the HLT and 2 for the kettle) I'd imagine with herms you could just switch between HLT, Herms and Kettle as required on a 32amp circuit. If i had the coin too, i'd make myself double SS vessels... ie one pot inside a bigger pot and fill/insulate the gap in between.



> 8. All areas and plumbing easily accessible to fix on the fly or clean when needed.


Go with all silicone tubing with camlocks for ease of breakdown and cleaning.

One thing i think you may have left out when considering the new brewery is, where are you going to brew? I actually find that my brew rig is the thing that takes up the least amount of room in the brewhouse. I have a single tier 3V double batch keggle setup on a slotted angle frame so probably 500 x 700 footprint. It's the fermenting, kegging, grain storage, cubes, fermenters, bottle, bits and pieces, etc, etc that take up the most room around my place.

One of the best things that i have done in my brewhouse is brew in a location where everything is at hand and give everything it's dedicated place. Obviously (as above) somewhere where there's plenty of power at hand, but also somewhere with hot and cold water service. Perhaps a stainless bench, with over and under storage, activity trough and flexible tap. Almost build yourself a nice compact kitchenette setup dedicated as a brewery.

Look forward to see what you come up with... i'm always looking to improve the spatial efficiency of my setup.


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## .DJ. (8/6/11)

schooey said:


> View attachment 46236
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I knew then, what I know now... this is what I'd be purchasing...


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (8/6/11)

pretty good ideas here chap chap: linnnnkkkkkkyyyyyy  


What kind of volumes are you chasing?? whats on offer power-wise where your living?? :lol:


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## brettprevans (8/6/11)

Do u guys know chappo? He's building the 3iteration of his rig, he's not going to buy one. Now if ur suggesting he copy it, that's slightly diff. My bets are chappo could build it better.


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## chappo1970 (8/6/11)

Yep agree on all counts there Argon. I guess what I am after is the smallest foot print without compromising function. As you stated there is a whole heap of other brewing equipment that needs space in the brewery as well.



_WALLACE_ said:


> pretty good ideas here chap chap: linnnnkkkkkkyyyyyy
> 
> 
> What kind of volumes are you chasing?? whats on offer power-wise where your living?? :lol:



42lt Final vols for doubles and 21lt for singles. I am happy to put a phase or two on if needed but would depend on situation.

Cheers

Chap Chap


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## Supra-Jim (8/6/11)

Better than camlocks are these items:

http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/pr...D2%22-BARB.html

and

http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/pr...7D2%22-MPT.html

They will handle the heat (provided they are not over an open burner flame) and make for easy one handed operation when it comes to hoses. Camlocks can get hot and require two hands.

The link I posted earlier uses stainless disconnects, which I have been looking to source, however I am now leaning towards the above items due to the heat factor (and me most likely to forget to wear gloves). 

As mentioned above a 32A circuit should give you enough juice to boil a double batch no worries.

Copying something like the brew sculpture should give you a nice small foot print and if you run the herms coil back through your HLT you only need three pots.

Cheers SJ


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## chappo1970 (8/6/11)

citymorgue2 said:


> Do u guys know chappo? He's building the 3iteration of his rig, he's not going to buy one. Now if ur suggesting he copy it, that's slightly diff. My bets are chappo could build it better.




Agree CM2. There has been one constant source of inspiration for me to build the ultimate home brewery and it's this brewery 

BEST HOME BREWERY IN THE WORLD AND IT"S UNDER YOUR NOSES!

I reckon Jonno has done one of the best ground up fabrication jobs I have ever seen. I don't need to look oversea's when it's home grown!

Cheers

Chap Chap


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## fraser_john (8/6/11)

Supra-Jim said:


> Better than camlocks are these items:
> 
> http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/pr...D2%22-BARB.html
> 
> ...



I have had these for ten years and though good, beware the use of caustics with the o-ring. It will distort them. Also ensure you use either silicone spray lubricant or some other food grade lubricant as the o-ring can "roll" out of its groove on one side, allowing air to be sucked in on the pump inlet side, or wort to leak on the outlet side.

Camlocks _are_ better and I am 20% through the process of swapping them out!


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## Supra-Jim (8/6/11)

fraser_john said:


> I have had these for ten years and though good, beware the use of caustics with the o-ring. It will distort them. Also ensure you use either silicone spray lubricant or some other food grade lubricant as the o-ring can "roll" out of its groove on one side, allowing air to be sucked in on the pump inlet side, or wort to leak on the outlet side.
> 
> Camlocks _are_ better and I am 20% through the process of swapping them out!




Interesting feedback, thanks FJ. I was aware of the need for lub, not about caustics.

Cheers SJ


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## chappo1970 (8/6/11)

Supra-Jim said:


> Interesting feedback, thanks FJ. I was aware of the need for lub, not about caustics.
> 
> Cheers SJ



+1 SJ

I was seriously going to go down this line till FJ's post. I trust his feedback and judgement.

Chap Chap


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## fraser_john (8/6/11)

Chappo said:


> +1 SJ
> 
> I was seriously going to go down this line till FJ's post. I trust his feedback and judgement.
> 
> Chap Chap



Hehehe, more fool you Chaps 

There is another problem I forgot to mention, the little lip on them can crack and break off or get real rough if you take your kettle outside and clean it and it scrapes on the ground etc, so I have to be real careful with mine. 

The o-rings are easily replaced, I bought a bunch of them for less than $5 and just replace them every year, so not really a big deal, but if you got Giordi stainless, the camlocks are about the same prices as the Rebel Brewer stuff and you don't have the huge postage costs from the USA.


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## chalky (8/6/11)

Hi Chappo,

Did you end up going down the brewtroller path with Sherman Mk2?

--Chalky



Chappo said:


> Fellow Brewerhood,
> 
> Whilst I know this topic will be a how long is a piece of string, how much money is too much money to spend on a rig and completely subjective to the individual brewer, I love full automation, I hate the idea of automation, I imagine, I am curious as to what you think would be the ultimate brewery? Anywho lets get started....
> 
> ...


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## chappo1970 (8/6/11)

chalky said:


> Hi Chappo,
> 
> Did you end up going down the brewtroller path with Sherman Mk2?
> 
> --Chalky


 No chalky but I have been in deep conversations with Kirem and he has me convinced to have a shot. I will however more than likely in the first instance go PID SSR's and then update when the BT is fully functional.

Cheers

Chap Chap


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## bradsbrew (8/6/11)

Short memory Chappo, you seen the ultimate in brewing rigs on sunday. Also if you need a hand with the welding I am your man. As you witnessed not many people could fabricate the same type of welds i have on my rig.  
Cheers


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## raven19 (8/6/11)

Chap Chap,

Do you have a location in mind? Does it need to be portable to brew days all over the place

Tiled floor area maybe in a shed?

Love my all electric, so easy. +1 here for sure. Do you have enough power in the brewhaus?

I run doubles easily with a serarate 15A & 10A supplies.

How compact? 1 tier, 2 or 3?

Re cleaning - some days when cleaning my current brewery, I fondly think of my buckets and esky mash tun... life was so simple back then!


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## chappo1970 (8/6/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Short memory Chappo, you seen the ultimate in brewing rigs on sunday. Also if you need a hand with the welding I am your man. As you witnessed not many people could fabricate the same type of welds i have on my rig.
> Cheers



Sorry Brad I should have acknowledged that not only are you the best welder in the entire world you have the best rig as well! As for the kind offer to help me to weld, as great as that privilege would be, you know I like to stuff things up all on my own. 

Ravs

Still pondering over single or double tier. Sherman being 3 tier was a PITA. DEFINITELY put a decent set of castors on it so it can be all terrain. 

Cheers

Chap Chap


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## kirem (8/6/11)

who is doing the welding?  

View attachment 46238


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## raven19 (8/6/11)

Chappo said:


> Still pondering over single or double tier. Sherman being 3 tier was a PITA. DEFINITELY put a decent set of castors on it so it can be all terrain.



Go big on the castors mate, my current setup's castors are too bloody small and get stuck on hoses etc when wheeling it around.

Looking forward to the build thread on this bad boy.


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## schooey (8/6/11)

Chappo said:


> BEST HOME BREWERY IN THE WORLD AND IT"S UNDER YOUR NOSES!
> 
> I reckon Jonno has done one of the best ground up fabrication jobs I have ever seen. I don't need to look oversea's when it's home grown!
> 
> ...



Agrred Chappo, but it doesn't exactly tick all the boxes you put up does it?

You need a forklift to move it, stripping it down to clean would be a days work and there's a shitload of moving parts that are herd to fix/replace on the fly...

Sounds to me like you really need to decide between the practicality and other functions on your list or if you're just gonna go nuts and build a full on go go gadget micro...

My bets are on the latter and you'll just go '**** the footprint and cleaning'


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## mr_tyreman (8/6/11)

Hey chappo, good thread mate, im all over this as im also sizing up for a new brewery, i reckon... next time you brew keep a pen and paper handy and write down everything you do and why its hard or easy and then after your done brewing sit down and go thru every step and come up with ways to improve each process....

hahaha yeah right!!! just get that credit card out and start buying shit, im sure at least 1/4 of it will come in handy 

I've got so much shit laying around the house that i will never use, but shit it looks so bling!!!


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## bum (8/6/11)

Chappo said:


> BEST HOME BREWERY IN THE WORLD AND IT"S UNDER YOUR NOSES!


Yeah it's pretty but surely it needs to make beer before it is a brewery?


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (8/6/11)

mr_tyreman said:


> Hey chappo, good thread mate, im all over this as im also sizing up for a new brewery, i reckon... next time you brew keep a pen and paper handy and write down everything you do and why its hard or easy and then after your done brewing sit down and go thru every step and come up with ways to improve each process....
> 
> hahaha yeah right!!! just get that credit card out and start buying shit, im sure at least 1/4 of it will come in handy
> 
> I've got so much shit laying around the house that i will never use, but shit it looks so bling!!!




You have a few Youtube vid's don't you??? if its you, mate i'm in awe of your complete setup!


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## matho (8/6/11)

I know they dont tick all the boxes but i really like franko's rig here

and pumpy's here

they look nice and simple and clean 

cheers matho


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## beerdrinkingbob (8/6/11)

_WALLACE_ said:


> You have a few Youtube vid's don't you??? if its you, mate i'm in awe of your complete setup!



If there is, would love to see them, still trying to work out which bit does what!!


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## donburke (8/6/11)

i would focus more on the cleaning function of my next build (if there is ever a next build) 

the cleaning is always the least fun on a brew day

whilst i empty and clean my mash tun during the boil, that still leaves the kettle to be cleaned

the problem here is that you can only clean the kettle after you have either cubed or chilled your wort in a fermenter

the sealing of a cube or fermenter is somewhat final by definition, you have completed and achieved what you set out to do a few hours prior

but wait, its not all done, the kettle still needs to be cleaned

i would try to design a system that is self cleaning, and make the sealing of the fermenter or cube the final step you can walk away from


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## ekul (8/6/11)

Mr Tyreman, are you using the kitchen sink for a mash tun? Would be so easy to clean! Just put a bucket under the plughole and hose it out!


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## Florian (8/6/11)

Chappo,

have a look at this one:

http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name=eBo...ad&tid=4639

judging on your german skills I witnessed on Sunday I would assume that you get the details, and even if I'm wrong, the pictures really say it all. 
You can build it yourself, it is even more automated than a Braumeister (as you have up to five programmable hop feeder, plus fully automated whirlpool), you could easily adapt it for double batches etc. 
Very small footprint, portable, full electric... Fits all your criterias, apart from being RIMS

And there is even a concept to prevent boil overs!


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## keifer33 (8/6/11)

Florian said:


> Chappo,
> 
> have a look at this one:
> 
> ...



I dont know what they are saying but damn that is one nice looking automated brewery


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## Sunshine_Brewer (8/6/11)

Florian said:


> Chappo,
> 
> have a look at this one:
> 
> ...



...there are not enough hopfensilo's are they are way too small


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## Cocko (9/6/11)

bum said:


> Yeah it's pretty but surely it needs to make beer before it is a brewery?




I would be happy to buy beer and just look at it!


But yeah, a great build!


Chap, go big or go home!.... i mean.. oh dear.

 

Welcome back!


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## chappo1970 (9/6/11)

matho said:


> I know they dont tick all the boxes but i really like franko's rig here
> and pumpy's here
> they look nice and simple and clean
> cheers matho



Very note worthy rigs. I have always admired these one's of Franko and Pumpy's. And can testify they make fantastic beers (but don't tell them that)  



donburke said:


> i would focus more on the cleaning function of my next build (if there is ever a next build)
> the cleaning is always the least fun on a brew day
> whilst i empty and clean my mash tun during the boil, that still leaves the kettle to be cleaned
> the problem here is that you can only clean the kettle after you have either cubed or chilled your wort in a fermenter
> ...



Couldn't agree with your sentiments more. The most tiresome thing about brewing is the amount of cleaning. I like the idea of 100% stainless steel and a mobile rig so I can go guts with the high pressure washer.



Florian said:


> Chappo,
> have a look at this one:
> http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name=eBo...ad&tid=4639
> judging on your german skills I witnessed on Sunday I would assume that you get the details, and even if I'm wrong, the pictures really say it all. You can build it yourself, it is even more automated than a Braumeister (as you have up to five programmable hop feeder, plus fully automated whirlpool), you could easily adapt it for double batches etc.
> ...



Like all languages you learn the swear words first Florian :lol: 
That looks great and certainly will be looked at closely.

I know that Jonno rig doesn't tick all my boxes but what I admire is the skills he has but also how he has tackled every technical challenge.

I am really enjoying everyone differ take on the Ultimate Brewery. It's what I was hoping for in that there is a diverse range of opinions.

Cheers

Chap Chap


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## mr_tyreman (9/6/11)

_WALLACE_ said:


> You have a few Youtube vid's don't you??? if its you, mate i'm in awe of your complete setup!






ekul said:


> Mr Tyreman, are you using the kitchen sink for a mash tun? Would be so easy to clean! Just put a bucket under the plughole and hose it out!




not my setup, but good for a chuckle none the less


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## raven19 (9/6/11)

donburke said:


> i would focus more on the cleaning function of my next build (if there is ever a next build)
> 
> the cleaning is always the least fun on a brew day



+1. Location of your brewery and its immediate surroundings just as crucial, i.e. tiled floor with floor drains etc would make things a lot easier, etc...



Florian said:


> Fits all your criterias, apart from being RIMS



Nothing wrong with a RIMS, poor Chap Chap cant work out a PID though!  :lol:


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## chappo1970 (9/6/11)

raven19 said:


> Nothing wrong with a RIMS, poor Chap Chap cant work out a PID though!  :lol:



It's so true I am a PID-Tard :lol: 

Chap Chap


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## kevin_smevin (9/6/11)

Supra-Jim said:


> Better than camlocks are these items:
> 
> http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/pr...D2%22-BARB.html
> 
> ...




I've heard from the guys at grain and grape that these disconnects aren't great and get pretty brittle after a little while


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## raven19 (9/6/11)

Chappo said:


> It's so true I am a PID-Tard :lol:



He does a mean Stainless Weld though! Chappo's kindly donated SS RIMS housing is solid as :super:


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## Supra-Jim (9/6/11)

Yeah, I'm now considering other options. I really like the SS disconnects from More Beer, however they don't have them in stock. There is also the issue of heat with stainless or any metal disconnect.

Might have another look at camlocks from Geordi and see how they would go.

I like the ease of use of the CPC disconnects (one handed operation and stays cool), but there seems to be a few other draw backs wrt to durability over time.

Cheers SJ


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## Jarthy (9/6/11)

I've always liked this one though automated and with gas, the single tier looks good. 
very similar to pumpy's and red rocket' btw.


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## beerbrewer76543 (9/6/11)

raven19 said:


> Love my all electric, so easy. +1 here for sure. Do you have enough power in the brewhaus?
> 
> I run doubles easily with a serarate 15A & 10A supplies.



I plan to run something similar, using two 10A circuits from different rooms of the house

Two DPDT switches will let me select between the 4 heating elements (2 in kettle) so I never take more than 10A per circuit


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## Jazzafish (9/6/11)

Hi Mate,

I agree the speidel system may tick more of the boxes? Disadvantages is one brew/mash at a time and lifting mash out of vessel is a back breaker without help. Just an automated SS BIAB. Videos I have seen on youtube indicate a cleaning PITA.

For a multi vessel Herms system I say there are a few advantages like multi-brews at once and cleaning as you go. IMHO:
* look into a tiered system (like the blichmann) to save room
* Dedicated HX with a dedicated PID controlled element 
* Dedicated HLT with a dedicated PID controlled element or two depending on volume
* Dedicated Mash Tun
* Dedicated Kettle with a dedicated PID controlled element or two
* All vessels sized to your maximum batch volumes and power availability
* Dedicated water in manifold via carbon filter
* All vessels with valved outlets and hoses to connect between any vessel you like
* Pump mounted as low as possible

I'd avoid hard plumbing and automated valves, but whatever you like I guess. IMHO they are trouble


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## chappo1970 (9/6/11)

Jazzafish said:


> Hi Mate,
> 
> I agree the speidel system may tick more of the boxes? Disadvantages is one brew/mash at a time and lifting mash out of vessel is a back breaker without help. Just an automated SS BIAB. Videos I have seen on youtube indicate a cleaning PITA.
> 
> ...



Agree with all and above. What I am most struggling with is decent vessels. Seriously thinking about have some custom made.

I like the idea of having the mashing fully automated but wince at the idea of automated valves. Call me old skool but i don't mind swearing at the tap I just turned having no connection on the other end. :lol: 

Keep those ideals rolling in Brewers. I think this could be a valuable resource for those when setting up their breweries.


Chap Chap


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## ekul (9/6/11)

How do you reckon RIMS or herms would go on a biab? You wouldn't get the same wort clarity but it would really help with keeping the mash at a consistant temp. I'm investigating it at the moment. I like portability, which means i want to stay single vessel but it would be great to not worry about mash temps. Just set and forget


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## schooey (9/6/11)

Jazzafish said:


> I agree the speidel system may tick more of the boxes? Disadvantages is one brew/mash at a time and lifting mash out of vessel is a back breaker without help. Just an automated SS BIAB. Videos I have seen on youtube indicate a cleaning PITA.



Agree on the being able to only brew one at a time; It is a bonus to be able to dough in again whilst you are boiling the last one. The heavy lifting part isn't really that bad for a bloke like me, but I _could_ see it being an issue for a skirt wearer like Chappo... 

Have to disagree on the cleaning part though... Once I've taken the malt pipe out to boil, I just hose it and the filter plates on the driveway; done in two minutes tops. Once the boil is done and drained, the main body has a handle that is designed so you can lift it on the perfect angle to hose it and drain it. The pump housings are undone in 30 seconds and there is virtually no plumbing to clean. I can clean the main body in under 5 minutes.

I've only given it a run with some PBW once since I've owned it, and that was just to clean up the SS elements and to be honest, it was hardly worth wasting the PBW. It didn't even discolour that much...

Anyway, I never realy thought Chppo would go down the Braumeister track, it would take all the fun of the build out of it for him, I get that. I'll still watch the thread with interest and see what ends up coming out of the garage


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## chappo1970 (9/6/11)

schooey said:


> Agree on the being able to only brew one at a time; It is a bonus to be able to dough in again whilst you are boiling the last one. The heavy lifting part isn't really that bad for a bloke like me, but I _could_ see it being an issue for a skirt wearer like Chappo...
> 
> Have to disagree on the cleaning part though... Once I've taken the malt pipe out to boil, I just hose it and the filter plates on the driveway; done in two minutes tops. Once the boil is done and drained, the main body has a handle that is designed so you can lift it on the perfect angle to hose it and drain it. The pump housings are undone in 30 seconds and there is virtually no plumbing to clean. I can clean the main body in under 5 minutes.
> 
> ...



Schooey,

You are a big shirt lifter! Seriously, the whole malt pipe thingameebob on those lovely bits of kit. How effective is it? I really like the idea but have always wondered how effective they really are as your not really sparging the grain bed. Would be interested on your opinion.

Cheers

Chap Chap


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## schooey (9/6/11)

Well I can only talk in numbers Chappo.. The three vessel I built would give out between 80-85%, The braumeister gives me the same kinda figures on the same kind of beers... I'm really not sure how important a sparge is when you're constantly re-circulating through the mash, but I'm sure there are many schools of thought on it..

When I lift the malt pipe out, I place it in a cut off vessel that may or may not resemble a bulk beverage packinging canister and I pour through 8-10 litres of 75-80C water (dependant on what I'm brewing) in a kind of pseudo sparge, but it's really more like washing the grains... It's not really necesaary, and I might only gain a few points at the most doing it. Why do I do it/ Mainly so I can get the pre-boil volume exacly right for the extraction that I have achieved. That's about it. I've brewed batches without doing this and have still gotten around 80% Brewhaus Eff, so no complaints


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## chappo1970 (9/6/11)

schooey said:


> Well I can only talk in numbers Chappo.. The three vessel I built would give out between 80-85%, The braumeister gives me the same kinda figures on the same kind of beers... I'm really not sure how important a sparge is when you're constantly re-circulating through the mash, but I'm sure there are many schools of thought on it..
> 
> When I lift the malt pipe out, I place it in a cut off vessel that may or may not resemble a bulk beverage packinging canister and I pour through 8-10 litres of 75-80C water (dependant on what I'm brewing) in a kind of pseudo sparge, but it's really more like washing the grains... It's not really necesaary, and I might only gain a few points at the most doing it. Why do I do it/ Mainly so I can get the pre-boil volume exacly right for the extraction that I have achieved. That's about it. I've brewed batches without doing this and have still gotten around 80% Brewhaus Eff, so no complaints



Thanks Schooey for the insight. Yep with you there about the sparge/re-circ argument. Interesting that you hit the same numbers which I think is fantastic BTW. Have you notice any determinable differences with you house beers? Less clarity, more clarity, etc etc?

Chap Chap


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## schooey (9/6/11)

Chappo said:


> Thanks Schooey for the insight. Yep with you there about the sparge/re-circ argument. Interesting that you hit the same numbers which I think is fantastic BTW. Have you notice any determinable differences with you house beers? Less clarity, more clarity, etc etc?
> 
> Chap Chap



As you know, on my previous rig I did full recirculation mashing, and ran a disc of termimesh under the standard false bottom. When I began doing that, my clarity of wort into the kettle increased out of sight from when I did a static mash with a plain false bottom. The Braumeister gives me equal or better clarity before the boil as to what I achieved with the recirculation mash and termimesh.

In terms of clarity of the end product, well then that depends on a lot more than what I make the wort with i.e. chilling/or no chilling, fermentation, dry hopping blah blah blah.. but to answer your question, no I don't see or taste any differences in my house beers from my change in equipment. I think sometimes we focus too much on the shiny things that only get us to the wort stage, which is only small part of the job of making an actual _great_ beer!


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## chappo1970 (9/6/11)

schooey said:


> As you know, on my previous rig I did full recirculation mashing, and ran a disc of termimesh under the standard false bottom. When I began doing that, my clarity of wort into the kettle increased out of sight from when I did a static mash with a plain false bottom. The Braumeister gives me equal or better clarity before the boil as to what I achieved with the recirculation mash and termimesh.
> 
> In terms of clarity of the end product, well then that depends on a lot more than what I make the wort with i.e. chilling/or no chilling, fermentation, dry hopping blah blah blah.. but to answer your question, no I don't see or taste any differences in my house beers from my change in equipment. I think sometimes we focus too much on the shiny things that only get us to the wort stage, which is only small part of the job of making an actual _great_ beer!



Bloody good point schooey. I have always said brewing a good beer is by thirds. Recipe, Water/Mashing/Boiling and finally proper fermentation techniques and good yeast selection. Wait is that 5? :lol: 

Anyway I guess my point is that care and diligence is required at every stage.

Chap Chap


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## Jazzafish (9/6/11)

This guy posted a 5 part series on his first brew using a speidel system

Worth a look. Going down his road I'd look at the larger volume systems
The big one here:


edit link fix


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## schooey (9/6/11)

Jazzafish said:


> This guy posted a 5 part series on his first brew using a speidel system
> 
> Worth a look. Going down his road I'd look at the larger volume systems
> The big one here:
> ...




Ahh yep... I can see why you thought it was a PITA to clean... :blink:

I particularlyt liked the part where he said "I was gonna unscrew this part here and pull this hose out but I was a bit wary of that"... It's the frickin' power cable you tard!

When I first rinse mine, I put the end of those in the pump ports and flush them through; this gets rid of any grain (if you've been useless enough to let any spill down the side while filling the malt pipe in the first place) from the pumps.

I think he took the typical American approach to the job; overcomplicate the **** out of it and then have a gripe about how complicated it is...


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## seravitae (10/6/11)

Chap,

Maybe we should get together soon to talk stuff and beer - we had a lot of good ideas for the perfect brewery  If you didnt manage to keep a copy of our scribbles i've got them mostly stored somewhere up in these ol' neurons..

S.


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## chappo1970 (10/6/11)

sera said:


> Chap,
> 
> Maybe we should get together soon to talk stuff and beer - we had a lot of good ideas for the perfect brewery  If you didnt manage to keep a copy of our scribbles i've got them mostly stored somewhere up in these ol' neurons..
> 
> S.




Love too Seb. Also have some hardware to return to you.

Chap Chap


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## argon (10/6/11)

here's some pics of a nice compact brewery from the brewing network... certainly everything at hand here. Nice touch with the grated drain in front of the rig.

Dr Scott's Brewery


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## chappo1970 (10/6/11)

argon said:


> here's some pics of a nice compact brewery from the brewing network... certainly everything at hand here. Nice touch with the grated drain in front of the rig.
> 
> Dr Scott's Brewery
> 
> View attachment 46285




Nice find Argon! Very neat and yeah makes perfect sense to have a grated drain for all of the spillage/boilovers


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## schooey (10/6/11)

That brewery is left handed! The kettle is on the left hand side...

Oh the humanity...


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (10/6/11)

schooey said:


> That brewery is left handed! The kettle is on the left hand side...
> 
> Oh the humanity...



Must be american....... they do everything opposite to us


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## argon (10/6/11)

schooey said:


> That brewery is left handed! The kettle is on the left hand side...
> 
> Oh the humanity...


really.... mine's on the left  So that's why i'm so shit at making beer... i'm standing on the wrong side.


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## schooey (10/6/11)

argon said:


> really.... mine's on the left





My condolences...


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## argon (10/6/11)

schooey said:


> My condolences...


hey wait a minute... do you stand on the left side of your braumeister when your boiling?


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## chappo1970 (10/6/11)

Nuthin' wrong with Lefties


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## NickB (10/6/11)

Umm, my kettle's on the right, but I have my mash tun on the left, HLT in the middle....WTF DOES THAT MAKE ME (apart from very strange....!)



h34r:


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## chappo1970 (10/6/11)

NickB said:


> SNIP....WTF DOES THAT MAKE ME (apart from very strange....!)
> 
> 
> 
> h34r:









Your just a weirdo Nick  :lol:


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## schooey (10/6/11)

argon said:


> hey wait a minute... do you stand on the left side of your braumeister when your boiling?



Heh... I chalk up a successful brew day if I get to stay on the _outside_ of the Braumeister...


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## goomboogo (10/6/11)

Chappo said:


> Nuthin' wrong with Lefties



Research released this week claims people who are left handed, on average are less intelligent than right handed people. I don't know who conducted the research, maybe the Ponds Institute or The American Guild of Right Handedness.


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## Bandito (10/6/11)

Chappo said:


> I am curious as to what you think would be the ultimate brewery?



The ultimate brewery would have to be easy to clean, so some sort of rotating MLT, either as others have on hinges, or pivoted about the axis like Jonathons or rotated sideways like in this pic. Perhaps for the kettle too. 



Prototype vid: It may not play, as I just moved it to a different folder, but should after a few hours. It shows the pivoted false bottom at the bottom of the MLT that swings open as it rotates for easy cleaning. 



To also aid cleaning, all the vessels would be inside a big ass sink type thing - walls going down to a drain. It wouldnt have to be stainless, galvanised steel sheet would be fine. So the whole setup can be hosed down after use and all the spills and boilover residue just goes down to a hose which can be led to the garden. Bit hard to explain, but basically putting walls and graded floor on the side of a normal rig going to a drain.

And definetely a few 'Tours 50' rotating head tank washers (sprayballs) like these from tecpro.com.au to clean the vessels


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## schooey (10/6/11)

Bandito said:


> The ultimate brewery would have to be easy to clean, so some sort of rotating MLT, either as others have on hinges, or pivoted about the axis like Jonathons or rotated sideways like in this pic. Perhaps for the kettle too.



BIACB?

Brew In a Compost Bin


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/6/11)

$50 at the giant hammer hardware shop


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## Bandito (10/6/11)

schooey said:


> BIACB?
> 
> Brew In a Compost Bin



Well, Brew in a Stainless Compost Bin so BIASCB

Not tested, not proven, but I think would work and mabee have some space savings.


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## Deebo (10/6/11)

Too late


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## chappo1970 (12/6/11)

Bandito I like the concept care to discuss how is works and what the benefits would be?

Chap Chap


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## MHB (12/6/11)

Sadly one of the really basic bits of mash tun design is to get even sparging, nearly imposable across a circular tun I would think (well most of them are circular but the other way). I suppose it might work if you were batch sparging, but who wants to design in an inherent inefficiency that you would never be able to work around.
MHB


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## yardy (12/6/11)

Bandito said:


> *The ultimate brewery would have to be easy to clean
> 
> To also aid cleaning, all the vessels would be inside a big ass sink type thing - walls going down to a drain. It wouldnt have to be stainless, galvanised steel sheet would be fine. So the whole setup can be hosed down after use and all the spills and boilover residue just goes down to a hose which can be led to the garden. Bit hard to explain, but basically putting walls and graded floor on the side of a normal rig going to a drain.
> *



imo you don't need the rotating MLT, too much shit to maintain/break etc, KISS, a dump valve seen here post #144 http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...ardy&st=140 is all you need, i have the MLT emptied and a hot water rinse running through the pump and MLT before the Kettle comes to boil.

On another note, I would be a bit concerned for all the electrics in the Brewery when hosing the lot down after brewing wouldn't you ?

cheers


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## Bandito (12/6/11)

Its just about making it easy to get the spent grist out without having to lift anything. Same thing as the other MLT's that have hinges welded to them so they can rotate to empty the grist - same here but sideways. A full length slot would provide easy removal of the spent grist. No advantage of this over the upright version, and as MHB says, the false bottom wouldnt be full width (unless the false was curved itsself), so that may be a disadvantage but at HB scale may not matter enough to worry about it. At first I thought the sides would be sparged less, but now I think of it if they get the same amount of sparge water as the middle, as would be the case if there was a layer of sparge water on top as is the norm, it may actually turn out to be perfect.
It could have bearings fixed to the center of the sides mounted inside short pieces of steel pipe like in the sketch above, or mounted on rollers at the bottom to allow it to turn or both.


Anyway, lets not turn this into which method, I just suggested another way. I'm sure we all agree that being able to rotate the mash tun so the bulk of the spent grist can be dumped into a wheelbarrow so we dont have to lift 20+Kg of spent grist may be the most important aspect of the ultimate brewery. :icon_cheers: 


In terms of having the whole thing encased in walls leading to a drain so it can be hosed down - yes the electrics are the tricky part, an element with sealed wires would be a must, and yes it would be hard to seal every other electrical thing so they are waterproof, but that would be the 'Ultimate' and that is the topic  Encasing everything would also keep the heat in but not the reason for doing so - more to avoid having to build a graded floor with a drain into the brewery shed.

Do you flush all 4 to 10Kg of your grist down that valve yardy? Always wondered but never seen a definitive answer.


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## goomboogo (12/6/11)

Bandito, check out post #168 in Yardy's link. He says that he scoops out the grain and just flushes out the dregs through the dump valve.


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## Bizier (13/6/11)

I am looking at employing a tip method for my MLT. If I can get it to rotate over 90 and have the opening at bucket height for collection, I will be happy. My problem is that I wanted to stack my HLT over my MLT for a smaller footprint, and this design adds significantly to the height - meaning I might have an unwieldy tower.


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## Bandito (13/6/11)

Thanks goomboogo, I guess yardy is fit enough to reach in and scoop out 100 ladels of spent grist. We are all getting older though. And as we get older reaching down into a MLT gets harder and harder. So I propose the ultimate brewery would be usable when we are 80+ years old - and thats the point I am making in regards to the rotating MLT - thats all.
I suppose its a limitation of hard plumbing that silicon could resolve - so flexible plumbing would also be part on an ultimate brewery.

Thats interesting Bizer, do you think the above sideways rotating MLT would relieve the height issue? Just asking.


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## Bizier (13/6/11)

I think that it is not as resolved as could be and I already have a mlt open at the wrong end for that. A rectangular rotating tank of similar dimensions would allow for moer even wort flow, like a rotating ss esky.


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## Bandito (13/6/11)

Yea, true. You could always put blocks of concrete at the bottom of your stand to reduce the center of gravity?

Which raises the whole castor thing - would the ultimate brewery have castors, inflatable wheelbarrow tires, trailer tires or be on a tandem trailer or standard trailer for mobility? I think on a tandem trailer IMO.Could put walls on it to achieve my hose down requirement.





Chappo said:


> 11. Anti boil over device ( :lol: that would be the most over used part of the rig)


What would this consist of? I have a theory that high air flow over the boiling wort surface could prevent boilover, but thats just from ovservation of foam buildup and seeing the reaction when air is blown over it - never actually had a boilover so far. I've seen vids on youtube showing brewers spraying water onto the foam when it nears boilover. I think having a fan directed at the wort surface would work but wont comment as to how that would be implemented more actively.


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## yardy (13/6/11)

Bandito said:


> Thanks goomboogo, I guess yardy is fit enough to reach in and scoop out 100 ladels of spent grist.



100 ladels is not really a big ask, i recall when my bestest ever ladel was decommissioned due to fatigued welds and i had to make do with a table spoon, what a day that was.. sheesh....


i remember thinking that a rotating tun with silicon hosing on concrete blocks in the back of a tandem trailer encased in galvanised iron would've been just the shot :icon_cheers:


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## goomboogo (13/6/11)

yardy said:


> 100 ladels is not really a big ask, i recall when my bestest ever ladel was decommissioned due to fatigued welds and i had to make do with a table spoon, what a day that was.. sheesh....
> 
> 
> i remember thinking that a rotating tun with silicon hosing on concrete blocks in the back of a tandem trailer encased in galvanised iron would've been just the shot :icon_cheers:



It's lucky you had a tablespoon on hand. Imagine the day you would have had if you only had a teaspoon.


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## MHB (13/6/11)

You really should read this (How to Brew Appendix D - Building a Mash/Lauter Tun)
MHB


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## Jazzafish (13/6/11)

MHB said:


> You really should read this (How to Brew Appendix D - Building a Mash/Lauter Tun)
> MHB



Call it a brewing renaissance MHB!

How about a centrifuged mash tun Bandito? Made from a washing machine design ! LOL. 

The Speidel system is basically a BIAB with a rigid SS bag and automated elements and pumps. The rigid SS bag is basically a MT in a kettle. I remember seeing a drawing of yours in your automated brewery design that side tracked to a BIAB system with a linear activator to remove the bag. What I'm getting at is you could build something like the Speidel with an automated crane to remove the SS inner mash tun. 

Forget the sparge, if your dumping all this cash into an ultimate home brewery, you can afford to reap the benefits of a no sparge brewery and pay for the extra kilo or two of grain. 

Flame suit on.


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## stux (13/6/11)

Boilover prevention circuit for biab
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=626


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## Bizier (14/6/11)

Boilover prevention and boild uniformity was why I previously posted on liking the idea of a PID controlling the boil. I am assuming you would want to position the temperature probe directly above the element (I have no idea at what height) so you get a meaningful reading. I am sure that the regular steam bubbles would provide a higher reading than 100C. Thus you could tune your boil to whatever temp you deem to be sufiiciently vigerous and/or cost effective.

And Chap, even if you are a PID-tard, a basic PID would mean you only have to sort it out once (perhaps with a mate if you were being serious) and then operate the switch providing power. You could even hide the thing inside a control box and shut the door, never to be seen again.


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