# 90 minute boil question



## Reedy (7/1/16)

I am going to do my first all grain brew this weekend after finally getting my Grainfather.
I grabbed one of the Grainfather recipe kits (Mr Simcoe Pale Ale) to try & keep it simple for my first time. 
The instructions state a 90 minute boil is required, however the first hop addition is at 60 minutes. 
What is the benefit of boiling the wort for 30mins before the first hop addition? Just pure curiosity as I try to learn as much as I can along the way.


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## rude (7/1/16)

I'll have a stabb at this and say I've allways done 90min boils
because at the LHBS Demo thats what I was told to do
beers have come out fine. 

I think you're equipment has a bit to do with it also
It drives off volatiles etc when evaporating & getting to gravity
Isomerization
Caramelization
Coagulation

Hope this helps,search or google will help you on this a lot better
or I'm sure more someone else will chime in
cheers from rude hope you're first brew is a cracker


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## Parks (7/1/16)

90min vs 60min boil is really only about wort concentration, i.e. making 30L @ 1060 into 28L @ 1070 (pure guessing for example).

Any volatiles not boiled off after 60min aren't volatile 

You just need to know your system and how much sparge water you need to rinse the grains for the efficiency you want. If you know you'll get that extra efficiency running 2L of extra sparge water through you can do that and boil longer to increase your mash and thus brewhouse efficiency.


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## Ben1 (7/1/16)

There is some argument that certain grains require a 90 min boil to drive off volatiles. That being said there is a lot of evidence indicating this is overblown. I boil all of mine for 90 mins as I like the consistency with each batch.


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## jibba02 (7/1/16)

Longer boil is required to drive off dms. Which is increased by pale malts such as pilsner.


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## Parks (7/1/16)

jibba02 said:


> Longer boil is required to drive off dms. Which is increased by pale malts such as pilsner.


When you find a modern pilsner malt that needs it let me know.


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## SBOB (7/1/16)

jibba02 said:


> Longer boil is required to drive off dms. Which is increased by pale malts such as pilsner.


while that seems to be a common 'fact', one of Marshall's experiments would indicate otherwise
http://brulosophy.com/2015/09/14/boil-length-pt-2-pilsner-malt-exbeeriment-results/


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## spog (7/1/16)

My 2 cents worth, 90 minute boils..pfft.
These days malting works hand in hand with science blah blah .
To me a 90 minute boil adds to the Mailiard ? reaction, by doing a 90 min boil compared to the traditional 60 min boil you end up with a more concentrated flavour from the boiled wort.
And I have read/heard of suggestions of a 90 minute boil for hops,be buggered if I know how that is supposed to work as it goes against the accepted norm.
2 cents spent.


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## technobabble66 (7/1/16)

+1 to most of what rude & parks said. 

The main issue is to boil off DMS. 30mins is kinda enough to do this. 60mins is being extra sure. The boil also helps with coagulation (hot break, etc) - for clarity, stability, etc. Again, 30 mins is probably enough, 60 is to be sure. 
Where 90mims is really benefiting the beer is flavour development - namely caramelisation. As mentioned, also to concentrate the wort (also helps flavour, obviously). 

So generally speaking, 30-60mins is sufficient for the critical chemistry to make good beer. 
The extra 30 mins to achieve a 90min boil is to bring out (deeper & complex) malt flavours. 

(Note this is great in some beers and not so important in others, so you don't need to always do it, obviously)

Good luck with GF Beer#1 !


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## manticle (7/1/16)

Something not mentioned is the time boiling before the first hop addition.

Hot break proteins can supposedly cling to hop matter and reduce isomerisation/utilisation so 15-30 mins prior to the first addition allows a lot of that matter to drop back into the wort.

Also before dms can be removed from the wort, it needs to be converted from the precursor smm. A longer boil helps ensure that happens to an acceptable degree but as mentioned above, you'd be very hard pressed to find a modern 2-row that needs 90 mins for this.

Wort colour,flavour and concentration are very real reasons - depends what you want in the final beer.


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## Parks (7/1/16)

manticle said:


> Wort colour,flavour and concentration are very real reasons - depends what you want in the final beer.


From what I have ascertained in my research over the years is that colour change is negligible at best if you dilute back to the original concentration - i.e., if you boil off 2L then top back up 2L there is no detectable colour change.

I know when making things like gravy from drippings you really need to boil off completely to get that awesome caramelisation.


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## yankinoz (7/1/16)

DMS is quickly volatilized during a boil, but is also produced continuously from precursor SMM (S-Methyl Methionine), so long as the wort is above 80 C. The long boil reduces precursor SMM, which declines quickly early in the boil and then more slowly, a long tail on a graph, if you will. There is always some left, but not necessarily enough that you'll taste whatever DMS is produced.

Kilning malt reduces SMM. The more kilned your malts, the longer a boil you may want. I say may because not everyone reacts to DMS the same way. "Modern," highly converted malts actually tend to have higher SMM than older malts, but the difference is slight. Pay attention instead to base-malt colour.

On what tablet on what mountaintop is 60 minutes written? It's an hour, nice and round, right? For what it's worth I use 60 for many brews, but only 45 or so if the base malt is Vienna and/or Munich. I use 70 if the base malt is very light pilsner or includes a lot of wheat with a high protein content, which tends to have elevated SMM. I would do the same if I used six-row, which I don't. To the above boil times I add 10 minutes if I do a long hop stand at 80-100 C, because of the conversion at those temperatures of SMM to DMS.

Shortening boil times also affects bittering, but almost as much going from 70 to 60 as from 60 to 50. 

Some microbreweries use very long boils.


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## spog (7/1/16)

Hmm, boil for 60 mins but if caramelisation is wanted take 2 litres of wort and heat it up in a separate pot to achieve the wanted flavour .
Trial and error will get you there I've done it before with very pleasing results,which thinking about I will do again.


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## Coodgee (7/1/16)

Just follow the recipe exactly did your first brew. If you don't all the expected volumes will be out and you won't end up with the intended finished product. When you design your own recipes a 60 minute boil will be fine but you'll be all over the place if you deviate too far on this one. Consider it a test of your brewing skills to follow the recipe exactly and hit the expected numbers at the end.


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## manticle (7/1/16)

Parks said:


> From what I have ascertained in my research over the years is that colour change is negligible at best if you dilute back to the original concentration - i.e., if you boil off 2L then top back up 2L there is no detectable colour change.
> 
> I know when making things like gravy from drippings you really need to boil off completely to get that awesome caramelisation.


Diluting would totally defeat the purpose but a long boil (2+ hours for example) can get some wonderfully rich crystal malt type flavours going on.


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## Parks (7/1/16)

manticle said:


> Diluting would totally defeat the purpose but a long boil (2+ hours for example) can get some wonderfully rich crystal malt type flavours going on.


I think you missed the point I was making. 

The change in colour is nothing more than concentration.


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## manticle (7/1/16)

I did miss that. Reading on a phone.
Not sure I totally agree but I have no reference point besides some of my own beers.


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## manticle (7/1/16)

The change in colour/concentration has an effect on flavour though -no doubt in my mind about that. I'd hazard a guess that flavour could not be replicated just by having wort of the same gravity/concentration.


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## danestead (8/1/16)

manticle said:


> The change in colour/concentration has an effect on flavour though -no doubt in my mind about that. I'd hazard a guess that flavour could not be replicated just by having wort of the same gravity/concentration.


Melanoiden production isnt it? Once they are produced they are there for good.


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## Moad (8/1/16)

I have had 2 occasions where I have some off flavours thatI am confident were DMS. Started doing 90 minute boils from then on and haven't had the problem again. 

I would have to dig through the recipes but I am pretty sure they were JW Pale malt


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## Reman (8/1/16)

Technically boiling the wort will only give you Maillard reactions as tha temperature for caramelisation is a fair way above boiling.

The amount of SMM, the precursor to DMS, can be controlled during the malting process. These days maltsters produce vastly reduced amounts of SMM, even in Pilsner malt. Brulosophy sent a 30 min boil sample to a lab and the measured level of DMS was below detectable levels.

But as some one pointed out before, if a recipe calls for a 90 min boil then it's probably needed to get the same post boil SG and similar flavours.


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## mckenry (8/1/16)

manticle said:


> Something not mentioned is the time boiling before the first hop addition.
> 
> Hot break proteins can supposedly cling to hop matter and reduce isomerisation/utilisation so 15-30 mins prior to the first addition allows a lot of that matter to drop back into the wort.
> 
> ...


This is why I do a 75 min boil. The first 15 are dedicated to achieving an 'uninterrupted' hot break. (Hot break is NOT the foam - common misunderstanding), skimming foam (personal choice) and getting to the point where I like the look of the boil. Then the 'real' 60 minutes can start.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/1/16)

I grabbed JW Pils Malt direct from the factory in Spreyton - I only did a 60 minute boil (avoided the 30 minutes for a good international Ale Malt) and no problems.

FWIR - one of the beers went into TAS HBC in 2014 - and no notes of DMS.

Did a couple of IPA with it and some extra crystal and cara-stuff and it was excellent.


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## technobabble66 (8/1/16)

manticle said:


> Something not mentioned is the time boiling before the first hop addition.
> 
> Hot break proteins can supposedly cling to hop matter and reduce isomerisation/utilisation so 15-30 mins prior to the first addition allows a lot of that matter to drop back into the wort.
> 
> ....


What about First Wort Hopping?
I've done FWH for the last few beers and it's worked really well for smooth bittering. Not sure if there were any haze issues. I'd need to do side-by-sides, but they may've been a little less transparent than the previous several brews (- though it could be from other factors also).


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## goatchop41 (8/1/16)

Parks said:


> When you find a modern pilsner malt that needs it let me know.


I'm right with you on this. The maltsters have it under control for us. Much like some steps in mash schedules have been made unnecessary by modern malting processes, so has the need for an extended boil (when considering DMS). For whatever my 2 cents of anecdotal evidence is worth to you, I've done 4 batches containing majority pils malt with 60 min boil, and no DMS. Ditto for my most recent beer, majority pils malt with only a 30 min boil. All of these are no-chill too. The first one was actually a 20L batch chilled in a 30L fermenter - so heaps of head space, which is supposed to be a road straight to DMS city!

As many have already said, it's a different story if you're boiling down to get a higher OG, or for Maillard reactions.
Not having done a longer boil in order to get some Maillard reactions for flavour, I have a question regarding it - couldn't you just draw off 3-4L, boil the heck out of it seperately on your stovetop to reduce it a heap (to almost a syrup), then add it back in? Or does that not give as strong of a flavour?


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## manticle (8/1/16)

Both are good for different beers. Depends what you want. Try a SMASH wee heavy using only maris or golden promise and a three+ hour boil. Similarly doppelbock.

I have tried separate syrup reduction and like it for some uk beers but it is different from an extended boil on the whole wort in my experience.


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## goatchop41 (8/1/16)

manticle said:


> Both are good for different beers. Depends what you want. Try a SMASH wee heavy using only maris or golden promise and a three+ hour boil. Similarly doppelbock.
> 
> I have tried separate syrup reduction and like it for some uk beers but it is different from an extended boil on the whole wort in my experience.


Cheers Manticle.
I'm assuming that the separate boil would be a quick and easy way to get some extra colour and flavours in, but wouldn't match the complexity and/or intensity of a full volume extended boil?


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## manticle (8/1/16)

That would be my take. There are beers where you want the full on hit, others where you just want a suggestion.


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## Roosterboy (8/1/16)

As rude and Yankinoz mentioned the longer the boil the more isomerization of alpha acids from hops and so the 
more soluble they are and so more bitterness.


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## manticle (8/1/16)

To a point. Won't get much more from 90 than 60, bugger all more from 120 compared to 90.


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## michaeld16 (8/1/16)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I grabbed JW Pils Malt direct from the factory in Spreyton - I only did a 60 minute boil (avoided the 30 minutes for a good international Ale Malt) and no problems.
> 
> FWIR - one of the beers went into TAS HBC in 2014 - and no notes of DMS.
> 
> Did a couple of IPA with it and some extra crystal and cara-stuff and it was excellent.


can you purchase malt straight frim there?


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