# Hefeweizen head retention



## Papa Lazarou (13/10/13)

Hi all
I am after advice on my hefeweizen with poor head retention. The beer tastes perfect and pours a nice head but in a minute or so it is gone. Nice lacing on glass and good mouthfeel but it tastes its best with the head still on. I would like to have the beer maintain the head as long as possible.

Recipe:

2.5 kg JW export pilsner
2.5kg JW malted wheat
25g Cascade @ 60min
Mash 60min @ 66C
Made 22l
1l yeast starter from yeast harvested from Burleigh Brewing HEF

any tips would be appreciated.
Cheers.


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## fletcher (13/10/13)

i'm no expert mate so forgive me if this is incorrect/grain of salt etc etc, but i believe for wheats, a protein rest 10-20 mins at about 50c) could assist. someone else more knowledgable i'm sure can confirm that or completely tell me otherwise


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## JasonP (13/10/13)

fletcher said:


> i'm no expert mate so forgive me if this is incorrect/grain of salt etc etc, but i believe for wheats, a protein rest 10-20 mins at about 50c) could assist. someone else more knowledgable i'm sure can confirm that or completely tell me otherwise


The low temp rest is more for flavour characterisitcs for wheats - in particular the clove flavour, not assisting with head. A protein rest, if anything would be detrimental to head retention. Not sure what your problem with head retention could be. Possibly some detergent that you washed kegs, bottles or glasses??


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## Papa Lazarou (13/10/13)

I think these malts are well modified so a protein rest was not needed. I have tried washing glasses with hot water but didn't think of the keg. I clean them with sodium percarbonate, rinse and use hydrogen peroxide as no rinse before kegging. I also primed the keg with 100g of table sugar.
Thanks


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## Not For Horses (13/10/13)

JasonP said:


> A protein rest, if anything would be detrimental to head retention.


That is flat out not true. There are MANY different proteins found in grain. Some are short chains, some medium and others long.
A protein rest breaks down long chains into short and medium chain proteins.
Long chain protein IS detrimental to head retention as well as clarity and flavour stability.


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## JasonP (13/10/13)

Not For Horses said:


> That is flat out not true. There are MANY different proteins found in grain. Some are short chains, some medium and others long.
> A protein rest breaks down long chains into short and medium chain proteins.
> Long chain protein IS detrimental to head retention as well as clarity and flavour stability.


Yes I know that there are many proteins in grain, but tell me one that a being degraded at low temp mashing improves head retention...... none. So my statement stands. IF ANYTHING protein rest will be detrimental to head retention.


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## Not For Horses (13/10/13)

JasonP said:


> So my statement stands.


As does mine.
LONG chain proteins are detrimental.
Short and medium chains are desirable.
A protein rest breaks long chains into short and medium chain proteins.
OP will just have to make his own mind up about what to believe.


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## JasonP (13/10/13)

Not For Horses said:


> As does mine.
> LONG chain proteins are detrimental.
> Short and medium chains are desirable.
> A protein rest breaks long chains into short and medium chain proteins.
> OP will just have to make his own mind up about what to believe.


Not sure what your argument is here. I am saying a protein rest will be detrimental to head retention and not improve it as siuggested by someone in this thread. If you disagree then you do not know what you are talking about.


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## Toper (13/10/13)

http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-4.html


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## Not For Horses (13/10/13)

JasonP said:


> I am saying a protein rest will be detrimental to head retention and not improve it


I know what you're saying I'm just not sure WHY you are saying it.
I'm offering advice loosely based on actual science.
As I said, OP will have to decide for himself.


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## JasonP (13/10/13)

Not For Horses said:


> I know what you're saying I'm just not sure WHY you are saying it.
> I'm offering advice loosely based on actual science.
> As I said, OP will have to decide for himself.


Just copying and pasting from the link toper posted.......

_Using this rest in a mash consisting mainly of fully modified malts would break up the proteins responsible for body and head retention and result in a thin, watery beer._


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## hoppy2B (13/10/13)

I have found that the strain of yeast can have a massive influence on head retention. For example Wy1010 can dry a beer out so much that it will behave like the one described above.


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## Not For Horses (13/10/13)

Well, I must apologise in part. I misread the original recipe thinking it was 50% wheat as opposed to wheat malt.
Having said that, malted wheat still contains quite a lot more protein than malted barley so a protein rest is not out of the question.


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## JasonP (13/10/13)

Not For Horses said:


> Well, I must apologise in part. I misread the original recipe thinking it was 50% wheat as opposed to wheat malt.
> Having said that, malted wheat still contains quite a lot more protein than malted barley so a protein rest is not out of the question.


I agree a protein rest is recommended with this recipe and so with all hefs. But the OP head retention problem is not because of the lack of protein rest.


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## HBHB (13/10/13)

I usually follow this schedule for my Hefe's and never have a problem with head retention:

Mash in (Thick) at 40o C Acid Rest for 15 Minutes
Transfer he remaining amount of water for the full mash volume to achieve Proteinase Rest @ 56o C & hold it there for 20 minutes ( Avoids the issues with loss of head retention if you stop short in the peptidase range of 45-53(dead set head killer))
Ramp up to 67o C for Saccharification
Usually Mash Out at 75oC

There's Protein rests and then there's protein rests. Not all Protein rests kill head.

I'd be looking at the glasses, kegs and lines......even look at what the keg lube is. One of our distant customers was using Vaseline on poppet valves, disconnects, tap seals and couldn't keep head on his beer for quids (drove us both nuts trying to work out what the issue was). A change to a sanitary keg lube solved that and likewise the Skerra Lube is also head safe.

Should explain, I do the Acid rest because our water is fairly soft and alkaline. I tend to not use any mineral additions in hefe's.

Martin

Edit note....fixed tired "brain fart" on numbers.


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## Thefatdoghead (13/10/13)

I was thinking the same as Martin. What is your glass washing process? Soap in your glass will kill head retention every time.


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## mje1980 (14/10/13)

As long as the protein rest isn't too long, it will be fine for head formation and retention. Lots of people do a mid 50c protein rest for 5-10 mins with great results with regards to fluffy heads on beers. You can't just take one sentence in isolation as the word of jebus.


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## mje1980 (14/10/13)

JasonP said:


> Just copying and pasting from the link toper posted.......
> 
> _Using this rest in a mash consisting mainly of fully modified malts would break up the proteins responsible for body and head retention and result in a thin, watery beer._[/quot
> 
> ...


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## Papa Lazarou (14/10/13)

HBHB said:


> I usually follow this schedule for my Hefe's and never have a problem with head retention:
> 
> Mash in (Thick) at 40o C Acid Rest for 15 Minutes
> Transfer he remaining amount of water for the full mash volume to achieve Proteinase Rest @ 56o C & hold it there for 20 minutes ( Avoids the issues with loss of head retention if you stop short in the peptidase range of 45-53(dead set head killer))
> ...


Thanks for the advice

How do you step up the mash temps? I use a cooler to mash in so can't apply direct heat.
Would you keep adding more hot water or take out some and heat it separately?

Cheers


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## fletcher (14/10/13)

apologies for my misinformation and not considering the cleaning process of glasses/lines also. more information was probably needed before mentioning that rest. sorry OP. my bad.


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## JDW81 (14/10/13)

Gav80 said:


> I was thinking the same as Martin. What is your glass washing process? Soap in your glass will kill head retention every time.


This is a big one for head retention. Brewed a dunkle a few months ago and head retention was poor. I don't clean my glasses with detergent, but they must have been a little greasy which was ruining any head that was there when the beer was poured. Gave them a good clean with boiling water and then a polish with a micro fibre cloth and hey presto, perfect head and lacing from high tide to low tide.


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## manticle (14/10/13)

JasonP said:


> Not sure what your argument is here. I am saying a protein rest will be detrimental to head retention and not improve it as siuggested by someone in this thread. If you disagree then you do not know what you are talking about.



Strong words and not entirely correct. An extended rest at certain temps may adversely affect retention. A short rest at others may improve it (as suggested by mje).

NFH is suggesting that a rest that degrades longer chain proteins to medium and shorter chains may help retention which fits that idea too.

Also the low temp rest to push clove has nothing to do with a protein rest and is in a different temperature range. Look up ferulic acid rest.


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## mje1980 (14/10/13)

I use boiling water to step up. I'd love a heat stick. If I had one I'd do more steps. With boiling water ( bucket on kitchen scales next to stock pot of boiling water ), I can easily do 2 steps, which works fine. My setup is an esky mash tun. Love the hi tech bling but too lazy to chase it up, and kiss works well for me. My glasses go in the dish washer and lace all the way.


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## garyhead.design (14/10/13)

Just a thought....

How fine are you crushing your grain?

Over ground husks can totally kill your head retention due to the release of fatty acids.

If you're not turning your grain to powder disregard my post...

Cheers
Gaz


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## HBHB (14/10/13)

Papa Lazarou said:


> Thanks for the advice
> 
> How do you step up the mash temps? I use a cooler to mash in so can't apply direct heat.
> Would you keep adding more hot water or take out some and heat it separately?
> ...


There's a couple of ways you could do it ghetto style.

Drop in heater element with a gentle stir. Bring it out and do a decoction. Or Adding hotter water to ramp.

Going from acid rest to proteinase rest is easy enough , since the acid rest is done with a minimal amount of water, so you're just adding hot water to ramp it and raising your fluid levels to a suitable mash water/grain ratio to end up at your saccarification temp. Elevating to mash out is the same as you probably do now.

Martin


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## Byran (14/10/13)

I remember reading on the franziskaner website that you can and (should) shake a small portion of beer and fill the glass with it to improve head retention. It works cause ive tried it with mine and theirs.


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## milkit99 (21/10/13)

Byran said:


> I remember reading on the franziskaner website that you can and (should) shake a small portion of beer and fill the glass with it to improve head retention. It works cause ive tried it with mine and theirs.


I was fortunate enough to visit the Weihenstephanner brewery and noticed them doing something similar to this. When pouring a round of Hefes, they'd fill the last glass mainly with foam and use it to top them all off.


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## DeGarre (21/10/13)

If one has oily lips the head will dies after the first sip so rinse your lips and at least don't eat greasy food before drinking...


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## pedleyr (21/10/13)

Just a thought....

How fine are you crushing your grain?

Over ground husks can totally kill your head retention due to the release of fatty acids.

If you're not turning your grain to powder disregard my post...

Cheers
Gaz


I've not heard this before - can you shed some more light on it or provide further reading?

I ask because I tend to grind my grain to something resembling flour. I've never been concerned about a stuck sparge because I BIAB and was under the impression that there were no other negative effects.


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## Byran (22/10/13)

DeGarre said:


> If one has oily lips the head will dies after the first sip so rinse your lips and at least don't eat greasy food before drinking...


So how do you eat a big greasy pork knuckle or a big greasy Bratwurst on a roll whilst retaining head retention on your beer this month?


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## NewtownClown (22/10/13)

Byran said:


> So how do you eat a big greasy pork knuckle or a big greasy Bratwurst on a roll whilst retaining head retention on your beer this month?


Wipe one's mouth on the bib of one's Lederhosen! Ja?


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## Byran (22/10/13)

I cant wipe all the grease off my beard! It would waste all the flavour i have stored!


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## Lindsay Dive (24/10/13)

Why not increse your mashing time to 90 minutes and chuck in half a kilo of Cara Pils and reduce the others by 250 grams. Weyermann don't call it Carafoam for nothing. 

FWIW, I always use some torrified wheat in my Hefeweizens.


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## garyhead.design (6/11/13)

pedleyr said:


> I've not heard this before - can you shed some more light on it or provide further reading?
> 
> I ask because I tend to grind my grain to something resembling flour. I've never been concerned about a stuck sparge because I BIAB and was under the impression that there were no other negative effects.


I picked it up talking to brewers.

I was skeptical at first, so a while back I did some googling. I found that fatty acid is well talked about cause of heading retention destruction and the release of fatty acids is commonly discussed as part of milling flour and other grains. Something to do with the the acids are created during germination and then released when the husks are pulverized. Apparently its the cause of flour oxidizing.... Putting 2 and 2 together, pulverized grain and no head.... I became a believer!!!

So I gave it a go and opened up my mill. I lost a bit in efficiency, but now every beer has a lasting head right down to the last sip and I'm left with foam rings all the way down the glass from every mouthful.

I'll give it another google, If find some of my readings from last time I'll post them up

Cheers
Gaz


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