# Using An Urn



## opposition (4/8/08)

Hi all,

I've made the move, now just to get the equipment.....

Apart from heating water for mashing, would i be able to use an urn as a HLT or kettle? (puts on flame retarding suit!)

I'm just after some ideas here....

Cheers,

Dean


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## opposition (4/8/08)

Thanks for that.....

I don't have one yet, i'm just looking for ideas on how to build my AG setup.

I'm setting up in my garage/bar and have a good amount of space. I will be running water to it and getting a laundry trough.

Does anyone know any topics on here or sites from which i can get some ideas???


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## Screwtop (4/8/08)

Some Urns are fitted with Simmerstats so pretty inaccurate unless used with maybe a Mashmaster, some are fitted with Thermostats which are better at controlling temps.


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## pbrosnan (4/8/08)

opposition said:


> Thanks for that.....
> 
> I don't have one yet, i'm just looking for ideas on how to build my AG setup.
> 
> ...



Hi there,

I've used a 30l 2.4k urn as a kettle for a few years and have never had a problem. I also have a 30l for the HLT and a 20l for the HERMS heat exchanger. I'd say that the "caramilisation" or "scorching" issue is a myth. I'm planning to go to a 3.6k element as soon as I get a bigger amperage socket installed. Electric has some advantages over gas the main ones being a ready supply of electricity and an absense of flames and exhaust gases. I reckon if you can go electric you're taking a path of least resistance. Also a number of people around here have built their own electric setups because they don't have access to a commercially built urn.


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## Millet Man (4/8/08)

opposition said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've made the move, now just to get the equipment.....
> 
> ...


Hi Dean,

I have 2 x 20lt 2400W urns and one 10lt 1600W urn and a 50lt SS pot with a 2400W element in it and a 2400W immersion heater.

You will only ever have problems with scorching if your wort is not clear, any crud carried over from the mash will settle to the bottom before you get up to a boil and may scorch but not always.

An electric immersion heater can be used in the mash without too much scorching so kettle is fine.

I'd recommend getting 30lt urns though for standard sized batches (20-23lt), my 20lt ones are ok because I got them cheap (just have to boil concentrated and top up fermenter) but I'd rather have 30lt units. Urn envy  

The other thing to take into consideration is that a 2400W element will only boil off 4-5 litres in 90 minutes, which is plenty. I understand gas fired kettles can boil off up to twice that amount - depends on how hard you like to boil.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## axl (4/8/08)

I use a 30 ltr urn as a mash tun. I have mashed up to 7kgs of grain in it. Works a treat & cost me nothing. I have insulated it with bed roll foam so temp fluctuation isn't a prob. Found a flat 30cm Dia SS strainer at woolworths for $5.00. Some quick modifications and it has made a perfect false bottom. 80% efficiencies every time & no stuck sparges. Don't underestimate the urn.


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## pbrosnan (4/8/08)

Millet Man said:


> You will only ever have problems with scorching if your wort is not clear, any crud carried over from the mash will settle to the bottom before you get up to a boil and may scorch but not always.
> Cheers, Andrew.



I would think that the wort would have a much higher viscosity than normal before this became an issue. If your wort was that viscous then you probably will have a very large piece of hop flavoured toffee. 
Remember, wort is almost completely made up of water.


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## ausdb (4/8/08)

Urns are great n my book especially a 40L one with a 3kW element, a 20L is a bit too small as the others have said for a 20L finished batch size. Allowing for trub and boil off I can get about 27L of chilled wort into a fermenter with the 40L urn a few centimeters from the brim at start of boil. The other big benefit is the ability for timer control, add a cheapy timer and you can wake up to a HLT in the morning. They are also quite especially in comparison to a nasa burner so midnight brew sessions without upsetting the neighbors are good too.
With some sort of proportional element control so you can regulate the heat input they are a killer.


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## Millet Man (4/8/08)

pbrosnan said:


> I would think that the wort would have a much higher viscosity than normal before this became an issue. If your wort was that viscous then you probably will have a very large piece of hop flavoured toffee.
> Remember, wort is almost completely made up of water.


Just to clarify, my brewing experience is with a wide variety of grains and the only grain I have had major scorching problems with is buckwheat. The wort from buckwheat malt if great care is not taken can be very viscous either due to a high carry over of proteins or beta glucans and can scorch the element. While my experience is not of relevance to most brewers, I imagine worts containing a high proportion of wheat or rye particularly may exhibit similar behavior. That is why I said it "may" scorch, not that it will. And it's not the sugar that has caused scorching of the element, I have boiled worts of 1.100 SG and greater with an electric element without any problems, so no hop flavoured toffee issues.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Thirsty Boy (5/8/08)

I just scored myself a nice 40L urn (2400W I think) and its my plan to use it mainly as an HLT. I primarily wanted the urn so I would have the ability to have it on a timer and be able to walk into my brewery to have water at strike temp already. I had a bucket of death HLT before, but never trusted it enough so that I was willing to have it turn itself on while I was still in bed.

The bonus is though, that its an auxiliary kettle if I need it - run out of gas, pump wort over to urn and keep going - I will probably try to boil a few batches in there anyway, just to see if I like it. If I do, I may modify my system and go completely electric.

For a BiaB system... I strongly suspect that a 40L urn is the ideal option. 1 piece of kit plus your bag... done. No gas bottle or burner to take up space. Your whole AG brewery could actually fit inside the urn and be put away in the bottom of a cupboard. A wife pleasing option.


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## reg (5/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I just scored myself a nice 40L urn (2400W I think) and its my plan to use it mainly as an HLT. I primarily wanted the urn so I would have the ability to have it on a timer and be able to walk into my brewery to have water at strike temp already. I had a bucket of death HLT before, but never trusted it enough so that I was willing to have it turn itself on while I was still in bed.
> 
> The bonus is though, that its an auxiliary kettle if I need it - run out of gas, pump wort over to urn and keep going - I will probably try to boil a few batches in there anyway, just to see if I like it. If I do, I may modify my system and go completely electric.
> 
> For a BiaB system... I strongly suspect that a 40L urn is the ideal option. 1 piece of kit plus your bag... done. No gas bottle or burner to take up space. Your whole AG brewery could actually fit inside the urn and be put away in the bottom of a cupboard. A wife pleasing option.


Dan,
Seeing how as you put how good an urn would be for a BIAB system and such a wife pleasing option, I am now going to walk around for the rest of the day kicking myself in the arse.
Oh well one blokes loss is another brewers gain.
Good luck....

Reg


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## Swinging Beef (5/8/08)

Other than waiting around optomistically on ebay for a 30litre urn, where else is a good place to get a good 2nd hand or a fair priced new one from?


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## Cortez The Killer (5/8/08)

In the gong you can try Wollongong General Agency on Kiera St (for new stuff) or there's a place on Montague St that sells second hand commercial kitchen gear (not sure of their name though)

Might be worth a buzzy to each to find out prices and save leg work

Cheers


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## JWB (5/8/08)

B) 
Ive been using a 20ltr urn with a 2400watt element for about 5 years now and have never had a problem with burning or scortching.
I do mini mashes in it using a stainless steel sieve that I invented. Its much like Brew in the Bag Method. I also boil malt extract and hops in it but being only 20ltr capacity I find I have to watch closely for boil overs.
If anyone wants to clean your urn and element fill the urn with water and bring it to the boil. Add about 1/2 cup of CITRIC ACID stir well and turn off and leave overnight.
Next day the urn will be bright as new and the citric acid will not eat into the element or stainless steel.

I do this about once a month and my urn is like new inside always

Cheers 

JWB B)


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## ausdb (5/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I just scored myself a nice 40L urn (2400W I think) and its my plan to use it mainly as an HLT. I primarily wanted the urn so I would have the ability to have it on a timer and be able to walk into my brewery to have water at strike temp already. I had a bucket of death HLT before, but never trusted it enough so that I was willing to have it turn itself on while I was still in bed.
> 
> The bonus is though, that its an auxiliary kettle if I need it - run out of gas, pump wort over to urn and keep going - I will probably try to boil a few batches in there anyway, just to see if I like it. If I do, I may modify my system and go completely electric.
> 
> For a BiaB system... I strongly suspect that a 40L urn is the ideal option. 1 piece of kit plus your bag... done. No gas bottle or burner to take up space. Your whole AG brewery could actually fit inside the urn and be put away in the bottom of a cupboard. A wife pleasing option.


TB you have got yourself a winner there, just get a 20L plastic bucket (with a mesh false bottom) and a little circulation pump and you have your own mini RIMS system, even better than a BIAB as it's a BIAbucket  
Seriously for single keg batches I heat my strike water in the 40L urn, mash in then heat some more and at mashour/sparge fill my mashtun to the brim (50L esky) then just drain back into the urn and start boiling.


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## RobB (5/8/08)

How vigorous is the boil in an urn? Does anyone have any photos of their urn in action?


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## ausdb (5/8/08)

Hi MC 
It's hard to say, in my big urn (40L) with a 3kw element if I only boil 20L or so I get a very vigourous boil and 10% evaporation, but if I fill it up near the brim it is not so vigorous but still gets about 6% boil off. If I try and boil 18L in the 20L urn with a 2.4kW element I can get boil overs. Some sort of proportional heat control would be ideal, hopefully Randyrobs Brewbot adventure is going to help me make a system to drive a SSR so once I get the wort boiling then I can dial the heat back to suit the batch size.


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## RobB (7/8/08)

ausdb said:


> Hi MC
> It's hard to say, in my big urn (40L) with a 3kw element if I only boil 20L or so I get a very vigourous boil and 10% evaporation, but if I fill it up near the brim it is not so vigorous but still gets about 6% boil off. If I try and boil 18L in the 20L urn with a 2.4kW element I can get boil overs. Some sort of proportional heat control would be ideal, hopefully Randyrobs Brewbot adventure is going to help me make a system to drive a SSR so once I get the wort boiling then I can dial the heat back to suit the batch size.



Thanks for that. I've been making a few half batches recently to speed up my brewing education. It sounds like the standard 2.4kW will easily handle 12 litres.


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## Thirsty Boy (8/8/08)

reg said:


> Dan,
> Seeing how as you put how good an urn would be for a BIAB system and such a wife pleasing option, I am now going to walk around for the rest of the day kicking myself in the arse.
> Oh well one blokes loss is another brewers gain.
> Good luck....
> ...



Shit Reg,

I thought you must have considered and rejected the urn option before you put it up for sale. If you really need it back, just gimme a yell and I'll let you indian sell. Its a luxury for me not a necessity.

Of course.... I'm brewing in a space that is barley bigger than your average toilet cubicle; whereas your pergola is bigger than my flat, and you have plumbed in natural gas, so you're gonna have to sob really hard to make me feel too much sympathy. 

Thirsty


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## Thirsty Boy (8/8/08)

Malty Cultural said:


> How vigorous is the boil in an urn? Does anyone have any photos of their urn in action?



Cant say for the Urn, haven't boiled wort in it yet. But I have helped brew over at Spillsmostofit's place a few times and he boils with 2400W immersion elements.

He normally boils for 90mins, the first 30 with both elements which is a _very_ vigorous boil, then for the remaining hour he just boils with the one 2400W element. IMHO the boil produced by the single 2400W element is more than sufficient. Having two of them just gets you to the boil a lot faster. This is for a pretty standard 23L into the cube batch, so say a 29-30L ish boil volume..

You could emulate this by having an urn as your kettle and a separate immersion element just to provide extra grunt at the front end, for heating up strike water and getting to a boil. Depends.... in a 3 vessel system with an urn as the kettle, I'd say that an extra immersion element would be a really useful bit of kit. For adding heat to the mash.. adding grunt to the kettle... the general ability to stick it in any given container of liquid and heat it up. In an Urn BiaB system - not quite as useful to you, but might well speed things up a bit and certainly wouldn't go astray. You do have to consider whether you houses circuit can cope with 20A of drain. Mine certainly cant, so its one element at a time for me.

In short, 2400W is enough, but not if you are impatient.

Thirsty


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## SpillsMostOfIt (9/8/08)

Wot Thirsty Boy sed.

Ignoring the time saving with two 2400Watt elements in bringing things up to temperature more quickly, I like boiling for the first 30minutes *really ... very ... vigorously* - I tell myself that it helps blow off any DMS precursors and coagulate a protein or two that would otherwise cloudy my beer.

I've got a fair amount of electrical capacity entering my house and I run my two elements off separate 20Amp circuits, so I can still make a cup of tea while I brew without setting the house on fire, etc, etc.

Of course, if you wanted to get an urn and try it without another element, you might just end up with beer that you have to drink, so be careful. Apart from that, if it doesn't work for you, you're only out another element; either an over the side type like I use or some sort of fixed affair such as you can pull out of a kettle or buy from any number of places.


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## mitto68 (10/8/08)

spillsmostofit, what type and where did you get your "hang over the side" immersion element? i'm going to get an urn to try out biab in and think this might be useful down the track.

cheers,
mick.


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## reg (11/8/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Shit Reg,
> 
> I thought you must have considered and rejected the urn option before you put it up for sale. If you really need it back, just gimme a yell and I'll let you indian sell. Its a luxury for me not a necessity.
> 
> Thirsty


Dan,

My attempt at Mash paddle humour Werribee style.
Just stirring shit mate.
Like I said at the time mate, good to see it go to a good home and somebody who helped me jump to AG.
Have fun. But you still owe me a beer when we have a brew day.

Reg


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## pbrosnan (11/8/08)

I fill my 30L to capacity so it takes it a while to get from mash-out temp to a rolling boil, probably about 30-45mins. It usually tries to boil over a couple of times and then settles down to a rolling boil.


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## Cortez The Killer (11/8/08)

Here's a set up with an urn working both as the HLT and kettle.

http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Gear/Sam...gobrewery.shtml

Originally I was gonna go with this sort of setup - but found it too difficult to source an urn at a decent price

I ended up with this setup 

http://hyperfox.info/webalbum03/index.html

Cheers


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## jimmyjack (11/8/08)

I love my 40 Liter Crown urn. Probably the best brewing purchase I have made. I fill it to the very top the night before and this provides me with exactly enough water for sparge to collect 30 liters of wort. I bought a new one for $280 which I thought was good value since a sight class alone was around 100 bones to buy. I dont think I would want to boil in mine as I cherish its use as an HLT too much.

Cheers,
JJ


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## SpillsMostOfIt (11/8/08)

I purchased my Over The Side elements from http://www.tobins.com.au/ . They are branded Grimwood, model 4108B. There are several threads on this site about them as they are quite commonly used. You can walk into G&G and walk back out with one if you prefer.

As much as I like my immersion heater setup for the Production Plant, I think I enjoy my brew days a bit more nowadays when brewing in the Pilot Plant, which has a fixed element - thus emulating an urn. There's less mucking about and that becomes important after a dozen brews or so.

OTS heaters will cost around $100 (give or take). If you've got the money, buy some. Otherwise, I would recommend giving the urn a few brews to prove itself and decide if you actually want/need the extra grunt.


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## randyrob (11/8/08)

Malty Cultural said:


> Thanks for that. I've been making a few half batches recently to speed up my brewing education. It sounds like the standard 2.4kW will easily handle 12 litres.



i used a 2.4kW element in a kettle on the weekend for the first time and i was pleasantly suprised. boiled 37L down to 30L over 75 minutes (15% evaporation)
i think if i had much less wort in there i'd have to control the element.

Rob.


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## Cortez The Killer (11/8/08)

how do you go about controlling the element?

cheers


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## SpillsMostOfIt (11/8/08)

I have a solid state relay and a microcontroller that allows me to turn the element on and off over a definable period (1-2seconds usually for me). It's a kludge, but works kinda nicely enough...


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## pbrosnan (11/8/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I purchased my Over The Side elements from http://www.tobins.com.au/ . They are branded Grimwood, model 4108B. There are several threads on this site about them as they are quite commonly used. You can walk into G&G and walk back out with one if you prefer.
> 
> As much as I like my immersion heater setup for the Production Plant, I think I enjoy my brew days a bit more nowadays when brewing in the Pilot Plant, which has a fixed element - thus emulating an urn. There's less mucking about and that becomes important after a dozen brews or so.
> 
> OTS heaters will cost around $100 (give or take). If you've got the money, buy some. Otherwise, I would recommend giving the urn a few brews to prove itself and decide if you actually want/need the extra grunt.


Hi there,

I'm getting a 15A socket installed and plan to run a 3600 and a 2400 in a 50L stockpot (on separate circuits). I've had a look at Grimwoods and was thinking that the 1'' BSP HW elements would be the go. Any idea what the best elements are for this purpose? Something like the "3252CG736 3600w 1'' BSP H/W Element" from the Tobins product index looks the goods.


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## randyrob (11/8/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I have a solid state relay and a microcontroller that allows me to turn the element on and off over a definable period (1-2seconds usually for me). It's a kludge, but works kinda nicely enough...




+1 i'm pretty much going to do the same thing, my ssr's arrived in the mail today so will keep u tuned as to the progress.

Cheers Rob.


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## mitto68 (12/8/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I purchased my Over The Side elements from http://www.tobins.com.au/ . They are branded Grimwood, model 4108B. There are several threads on this site about them as they are quite commonly used. You can walk into G&G and walk back out with one if you prefer.
> 
> As much as I like my immersion heater setup for the Production Plant, I think I enjoy my brew days a bit more nowadays when brewing in the Pilot Plant, which has a fixed element - thus emulating an urn. There's less mucking about and that becomes important after a dozen brews or so.
> 
> OTS heaters will cost around $100 (give or take). If you've got the money, buy some. Otherwise, I would recommend giving the urn a few brews to prove itself and decide if you actually want/need the extra grunt.



Cheers mate, i'll definately do a few brews first i was just curious about the where and how much.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (12/8/08)

pbrosnan said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I'm getting a 15A socket installed and plan to run a 3600 and a 2400 in a 50L stockpot (on separate circuits). I've had a look at Grimwoods and was thinking that the 1'' BSP HW elements would be the go. Any idea what the best elements are for this purpose? Something like the "3252CG736 3600w 1'' BSP H/W Element" from the Tobins product index looks the goods.



My fixed element came out of a jug and is rated at 1850-ish watts, so anything I might say about the screw-in elements would be supposition. However, 6kW would certainly get the contents of a 50litre vessel up to speed quickly - some might say that's overkill (as they might about my 4.8kW).

There's a bloke in Ringwood (I think) that will make elements to order at competitive prices. Velophile got one or two made by him for his setup. I might give him a nudge to drift by and share his experience...


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## Goofinder (28/8/08)

I picked up an new urn (30L, 2.4kW element) to use as my HLT/kettle, mainly due to space constraints. Did my first AG brew last weekend and it went pretty well. Had about 26L of wort boiling with no troubles and should be able to get another litre or two in next time. 

You do have to be a little careful when stirring so the element and thermostat don't get whacked too much though, and there was a bit of gunk on the element when I was finished but I don't think there were any real caramelisation issues. 

The urn was a bit pricey at $295, but I figure it's an investment in quality beer and when I do have a bit more space it will make an excellent full-time HLT.


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## drsmurto (29/8/08)

I love my urn. Mum gave it to me thinking i would use it to preserve fruit from the 12+ fruit tress in the backyard.......

Its an old Fowlers Vacola jobby that holds about 25L. I connect it up to a timer and wake up to water ready to dough in. Crush malt the night before so i walk out the backdoor, dump water and malt into esky, stir like a bastard and then have brekky, coffee, scratch etc. Adjust temp to get to boiling for next step. Easy!

I did contemplate using it for a kettle but picked up a 50L DAB keg for $85 and the rest is history. 

Might have to use it for its original purpose this summer as turning 10kg of apricots into jam was a pain in the proverbial.


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## notung (29/8/08)

I have been having a look at a few types of urns, and considering shelling out for a new one to use as a HLT. Many of them claim to have thermostat control (or 'simmerstat' which I understand is a no-no). My question is whether their thermostats and heat setting dials are accurate and easy to control. Some seem to have a single knob with only high, medium and low markings. Ideally I'd like an 30-40L urn with a sightglass also. Are there any brands which seem to be better quality for temperature control? I don't want to buy one of those mashmaster HLT controllers if I can avoid it...

Jomack sound allright. Which ones would you rate?


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## Tanga (30/8/08)

Hmmmm, very interesting thread. Might have to keep an eye out at the second hand stores for a 20L urn. Though those places are usually church groups so I don't like my chances . Damn little old ladies and their need for tea. I'm thinking it'd be _perfect_ for my first foray into BIAB.


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## ausdb (30/8/08)

notung said:


> I have been having a look at a few types of urns, and considering shelling out for a new one to use as a HLT. Many of them claim to have thermostat control (or 'simmerstat' which I understand is a no-no). My question is whether their thermostats and heat setting dials are accurate and easy to control. Some seem to have a single knob with only high, medium and low markings. Ideally I'd like an 30-40L urn with a sightglass also. Are there any brands which seem to be better quality for temperature control? I don't want to buy one of those mashmaster HLT controllers if I can avoid it...
> 
> Jomack sound allright. Which ones would you rate?


I have an old langco 20L urn with a simmerstat  and a 40L birko with thermostat neither of them is very accurate. On both units I use a digital thermometer with a remote probe to measure the temperature and just turn the knob to get it to the temp I want. But saying that I don't find the simmerstat any worse than the thermostat for holding a temperature unless the volume of water changes. If you want accurate control you are better off buying a mashmaster hlt controller and just setting the urn to max.

PS my langco urn was a $15 secondhand store pickup with a broken tap and the birko was free with a broken tap!!


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## David Sinclair (30/8/08)

I got a brand new 30L 10amp Urn of ebay for $150, just for heating my water, i found the thermostat markings are inaccurate 85C on the knob is actually 75C, so other than that spot on.


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## ausdb (30/8/08)

Beer4Us said:


> I got a brand new 30L 10amp Urn of ebay for $150, just for heating my water, i found the thermostat markings are inaccurate 85C on the knob is actually 75C, so other than that spot on.


My Birko is pretty much the same as that!


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## notung (2/9/08)

Beer4Us said:


> so other than that spot on.



Point taken, thanks. I'd be looking at some sort of thermometer/temp controller then also...


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## Millet Man (2/9/08)

notung said:


> I have been having a look at a few types of urns, and considering shelling out for a new one to use as a HLT. Many of them claim to have thermostat control (or 'simmerstat' which I understand is a no-no). My question is whether their thermostats and heat setting dials are accurate and easy to control. Some seem to have a single knob with only high, medium and low markings. Ideally I'd like an 30-40L urn with a sightglass also. Are there any brands which seem to be better quality for temperature control? I don't want to buy one of those mashmaster HLT controllers if I can avoid it...
> 
> Jomack sound allright. Which ones would you rate?


I have 2 x 20 lt and a 10 lt all Birko's. As others have mentioned the dials are inaccurate but you just need to recalibrate with a thermomenter and remark with a texter. No need for an additional temperature controller - that's just a waste of money.

Tomorrow I'm buying myself a new 30lt urn for Fathers day for $276 as the 20 lt units are too small for a kettle for 20lt batches.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## pbrosnan (2/9/08)

Millet Man said:


> No need for an additional temperature controller - that's just a waste of money.
> Cheers, Andrew.



Well that kind of depends what you are using it for. I have a MM unit that switches my HERMS heat exchanger on and off based on the wort temp at the mash tun. Besides that the temp control units are far easier to use with regard to set points and provide finer settings. I suppose it depends how much you want to spend but if your thinking of a HERMS then a controller is a very useful bit of kit.


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## Thirsty Boy (2/9/08)

Just a note about urns and sight glasses - not sure if its common to all urns, but I imagine it might well be.

The sight glass on mine comes off the tap assembly, and what happens, is that as soon as you open the tap, the pressure drops in the whole assembly, and the level that the sight glass reads, drops dramatically. As soon as you snap the tap closed again, it goes back up to the water level.

Not a drama if all you want is to see how much water you have left in the thing, but I was hoping to use the sight glass to measure the amount of water into my mash tun. I can, but its matter of pour - stop to take water level - pour some more - stop to take water level .... I cant just keep the tap open till the level drops to "x" and close it off.

I suspect that I will end up drilling another hole in the urn and installing a proper ball valve and pick-up tube. The current tap can just be an auxilliary and serve the purpose of holding the sight glass.

Can anyone think of a solution that doesn't involve relocating the sight glass away from its current location or fitting another tap?

Thirsty


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## Millet Man (2/9/08)

pbrosnan said:


> Well that kind of depends what you are using it for. I have a MM unit that switches my HERMS heat exchanger on and off based on the wort temp at the mash tun. Besides that the temp control units are far easier to use with regard to set points and provide finer settings. I suppose it depends how much you want to spend but if your thinking of a HERMS then a controller is a very useful bit of kit.


Good point. For fine control on a HERMS yes it would be worth having a more accurate controller but I think notung was looking at getting an urn for a HLT so calibrating the right setting (75C, 80C etc) with a thermometer would be close enough. I use a SS stock pot for a mash tun and sit it in the urn, and use the urn as a water jacket to insulate / maintain constant temperature and it does the job beautifully as long as I know what to set the urn on to hit say 65C.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Millet Man (2/9/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Just a note about urns and sight glasses - not sure if its common to all urns, but I imagine it might well be.
> 
> The sight glass on mine comes off the tap assembly, and what happens, is that as soon as you open the tap, the pressure drops in the whole assembly, and the level that the sight glass reads, drops dramatically. As soon as you snap the tap closed again, it goes back up to the water level.
> 
> ...


The sight glasses on all my urns are separate to the tap so that's not a problem, might just be your brand. You may be right about having top put in a separate tap outlet.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## ausdb (3/9/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Just a note about urns and sight glasses - not sure if its common to all urns, but I imagine it might well be.
> The sight glass on mine comes off the tap assembly, and what happens, is that as soon as you open the tap, the pressure drops in the whole assembly, and the level that the sight glass reads, drops dramatically. As soon as you snap the tap closed again, it goes back up to the water level.


My Birko has a separate sightglass fitting, the old Langco had the sightglass as part of the tap but the tap was busted when I got it so I ended up putting a separate sightglass fitting on it myself. TB Sorry I cant help with any ideas other than to drill a hole in the urn and put a separate sightglass fitting in, I got mine from JG Thomas in Bayswater WA but I am sure other people would stock them.

I mark on the side of the urn with a black marker pen the water levels I need for a brew then wipe it off with a metho soaked rag the next time I go to brew or just use them again if the batch size is the same


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## notung (24/11/08)

Has anybody had experience in replacing the taps on hot water urns. I am (still) casually looking into urns for use as a HLT, but I see that a stainless ball valve looks like it would work way better than the supplied taps. Are they built to simply unscrew on many models? Thanks. (Thought I'd reawaken this thread rather than starting a new one...)


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## Bribie G (24/11/08)

Buying a 40L ten amp urn in a couple of weeks for BIAB. The Birko brand is a tad under $300. 
At commercial swill prices of forty bucks a slab it should pay for itself fairly quickly.

I'll be posting pics of my first brewing session in the AG forum.

I saw on a thread that the tap on a Birko can be replaced by a ball valve as the hole is the same, and will take standard ss fittings, apparently. Will post when I have looked at my own urn.

Cheers.


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## Goofinder (24/11/08)

Haven't replaced the tap on mine, and don't really see a reason to yet. 19mm hose fits snugly over the tap after heating it up a bit and the tap can stick open and comes apart easily for cleaning.

I tried once to get it off (when it was clogged with hops and I hadn't worked out how it came apart) but didn't have any luck.


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## crundle (15/12/08)

Sorry, hope I am not hijacking the thread, but is it ok to use an urn as both a mash tun and for boiling the resulting wort?

I am looking at getting into AG in the new year, and hope to keep my equipment as simple and minimal as possible.

I want to make batches up to 19-22 litres for kegging, so hoping to get a 40 litre urn if possible, or at least 30 litre.

cheers,


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## jonocarroll (15/12/08)

AFAIK the insulation on these urns isn't as good as it could be - it would surely lose more heat than a converted esky - but I guess you could use whatever heat source you have to try to keep it stable.

Edit: removed useless statement.


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## Goofinder (15/12/08)

crundle said:


> Sorry, hope I am not hijacking the thread, but is it ok to use an urn as both a mash tun and for boiling the resulting wort?


Do you mean BIAB style or mash, then boil? For BIAB I'm pretty sure you'll need 40L, but BribieG should be able to tell you more about that. For a 'traditional' mash, it wouldn't be much fun to clean between sparging and boiling. Also, I'm not sure about how big the threshold on the thermostat is before the element kicks in so your mash temp might go up and down a bit if you rely on that.

As far as keeping your gear minimal, I just have a 30L urn and use an existing esky for a mash tun. The tap in my esky is removable and has a hole the right size to fit a piece of 1/2" BSP all thread through. It now does double duty and takes up no more space than it did before. 

My 30L urn filled (a tad over 31L) boils down to about 26L after an hour long boil which is enough after shrinkage and losses to trub to get me 22L into the fermenter.


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## crundle (15/12/08)

Sorry, thought I had put that in, but didn't. I plan to do mashing, then boiling, but from reading your post, it makes sense to use an esky for the mash tun, and just use the urn for heating up the water in the first place, then boiling the wort at the end.

Much to learn.... Much to learn.... 

I don't think I have been this excited about beer since I decided to get into kegging!


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## Bribie G (15/12/08)

Crundle: 

Cannibal Smurf should be getting my Urn brewday onto Youtube but has a bit of a backlog of family footage he needs to do first so for starters here's a bit of a run through, showing just the gear and obviously no ingredients happening here now

Urn: 40L Birko around $300. Get the 2400w model, the more powerful one needs a 15amp socket so you'll need to get a sparky in. The 2400 heats up just fine. Bag - 1.5 m Swiss Voile from Spotlight, a local sewing lady made mine up for me, total cost about $18






Heat up about 35L of water to 68 degrees if you are aiming for a 66 degree mash. Add grain in a THIN stream, we got some doughballs that required vigorous paddling. 

Switch the urn off, no extra heating required, cover and wrap in a doonah - I've got a real feather one that I got from Woolies for about $20 during the winter - and strap it and just walk away for an hour. Mine drops only a degree in an hour.




Hoist the bag and let it drain and squeeze it as well, while the urn is heating to boiling, won't take too long. (awning pulley $5 is attached to that beam using brickie's line so it can handle 15 K no probs, just looks alarming :lol: )





Hop additions etc, suspend a hop bag (Ross about $19) and use the urn as a boiler. 




I'm struggling to get my 24 litres into the bottle and going to do some tweaking and fine tuning as I fully realise that I am at the limit of the equipment for the beers I am aiming for, but for a keg brew... mate it's tailor made for you.

Hope this points you in the right direction. Oh and don't even think of a 30L , for the extra few bucks a 40L will pay for itself many times over.


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## crundle (15/12/08)

Thanks for the run through Bribie,

A couple of questions to help me get my head around it all....

So there is really no sparging per se here, I gather by the time the wort has heated up to boiling, that most of the liquid has run out of the bag and anything else can be squeezed out of it?

The element in the Birko urn isn't exposed or it would burn the bag, probably makes cleaning the urn easier also?

For around 300 bucks, this could be the thing for me. As I said, I am only interested in single batches for kegging, so having it all in one would be great, and keep my wife happy in the bargain.

thanks again for the info, looking forward to seeing your brewday on youtube!


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## Bribie G (15/12/08)

No sparging because you are using the full water volume up front. You end up with a really loose mash.

However for people like me trying to coax an extra few litres there is a bit of debate on raising the bag and trying to do a sort of sparge then dunk it back in. The jury is out! However if you are doing keg-sized batches it shouldn't concern you as you will have plenty of room for manoevre.

The element is exposed but you won't burn the bag because the element is switched off. I should have said in my post that you turn the urn off WHEN you hit 68 degrees, then add the grain for the mash, mix well and swaddle it ASAP.

Having said that, you need to suspend the hopsock to keep it away from the element during the boil. The resulting wort won't contain hop flowers etc that could block the urn tap so a hop sock is essential. 

Cheers

Michael.


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## Goofinder (15/12/08)

BribieG said:


> Having said that, you need to suspend the hopsock to keep it away from the element during the boil. The resulting wort won't contain hop flowers etc that could block the urn tap so a hop sock is essential.


I only had trouble with hop flowers blocking my tap, pellets didn't cause me too much trouble . However I've now got a beerbelly hopscreen which does a great job of filtering everything out. Also, since there's a pickup tube on there now I can get a bit more out after the boil.


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## flattop (15/12/08)

I just picked up a 40l Urn from Evilbay for around $200 + delivery with concealed element, perfect for BIAB.

Edit, i think the brand is Crown....


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## crundle (20/12/08)

Well, now I think I have been converted to the BIAB side! Got a mate looking out for either a 40 litre urn or pot and keen to give it a try once I get either of them. The urn seems to be the go for ease of use, and probably better for me safety wise with kids in the house, so it looks like I will have to do some extra overtime to get one after Xmas.

As an aside, now that I have bought Beersmith, how well does it deal with the BIAB style of beer production? It seems to want to have a sparge in there somewhere, but it is only early days for me looking over the software, so it might not be quite true to say that. 

Any experiences with Beersmith and BIAB?

crundle

ps, thanks for all the info so far, it has made me a lot more confident with making the leap to AG.


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