# Whirlpooling - How And When?



## PistolPatch (4/6/10)

I've been confused on whirlpooling since I started AGing which has been quite a while now so was pleased tonight to see that I am not the only one bewildered by it. On the BIABrewer.info forum, redlegger asked,



> Hey everyone
> 
> just a quick question on whirlpooling.
> 
> ...



My reply was...



> Howdy redlegger ,
> 
> Your question is a great one. Whirlpooling is talked about all the time but brewers never say what their equipment set-up or process is. Let's take one simple example...
> 
> ...



Whirlpooling is a familiar term amongst experienced all-grainers but a heap don't do it because their equipment doesn't suit and may therefore have the same lack of knowledge as myself. New all-grainers must be wondering what the hell it even is! (I can't even say whether it is done pre or post-chill!)

Can someone let us know...

1. Whether it should be done pre-chill or post-chill?
2. Whether it can work with immersion chillers?
3. Whether no-chillers should use it?
4. Whether syphoners hould use it?
5. How vigorous should your whirlpool be?
etc... 

Hoping the answers here will save me a lot of head-scratching. What is obvious to some of you guys isn't to me and I reckon a few others.

Thanks,
PP


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## benno1973 (4/6/10)

1. Pre-chill, however wait a few minutes after flameout as convection currents tend to screw with whirpooling and mess up all your hard work. So the deal is, wait a few minutes, whirpool, then chill. I'm sure you could whirlpool after chilling, but I find it easier pre-chill.
2. Yes, I use it with an immersion chiller. The immersion chiller is coiled copper and allows for me to stir up a whirlpool inside the coil of the copper (if that makes sense). There's definitely still room for whirlpooling without removing the immersion chiller.

That's all I got...


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## felten (4/6/10)

Nothing to add myself, but on the 17th may Brewstrong Q&A ep they cover whirlpooling to some extent. (about 9 minutes in if you want to skip the dialogue)


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## Thirsty Boy (4/6/10)

*If you are chilling with an immersion chiller* - then I say whirlpool _after_ chill. You will chill your wort a lot faster if you can stir it about the place and mix up the chilled wort close to the coil with the hot wort further away from it. Get your wort nice and cold, pull out that chiller (which while its possible to whirlpool with it in there, does interfere a fair amount) then whirlpool. Rest it for 30mins - drain off clear wort. This will even allow some (but not much) of the cold break to be left behind. Your chill will be faster and your whirlpool work better, than if you try to whirlpool hot and with the chiller in place.

*If you are using a CF chiller, a Plate Chiller or No-Chill -* You need to wait for your convection currents to settle down. This will be a few minutes if you use an electric element, but can be 20mins or more if you use a big arsed gas burner.... all that metal holds a lot of heat and keeps on throwing it up into the kettle.... so does your maybe metal brew stand, the bricks you sit your burner on, etc etc etc. Anyway -- look in the kettle - If anything at all is moving about, wait longer. If it looks all still - time to go. Whirlpool and rest for 30mins.

*In General*

The 10mins rest I hear a lot of brewers give.. well, it might work for some, but you really need longer than that to be sure. Minimum 20mins and 30mins as far as I am concerned is what you need to wait.

Start draining slowly, you'll pull a little sediment at first, but then it should clear up... when it does, after a minute or so, slowly open your tap up - if you see sediment start to come through... slow down a bit and leave it there.

Keep an eye on the level of the wort.. you need to know when you are getting to the top of the trub cone. When you _do_ get to the top of the trub cone, its vital to slow down your rate of drainage. If the level of the wort drops faster than wort can drain out of the trub cone.. then the cone will collapse and just turn into a pool of muck. Keep on draining - the cone will eventually start to pull apart a little no matter what you do... stop when you think more trub is coming through than you a happy with in your fermenter.

The amount of hops you use and whether they are flowers or pellets, will obviously drastically effect your trub cone. Flowers make for a much nicer and easier to work with trub cone.

*Trub cone falls apart no matter how careful you are??*

I was never able to get or maintain a good cone of trub in my converted kettle.. tried nearly everything. Just wouldn't work. Maybe the converted kegs aren't the right shape?

You are using the wrong amount of kettle finings (whirlfloc etc). Too little and also too much whirlfloc will change the nature of your trub. Get your finings just right and it helps to gel the break material together pretty well and gives a very firm trub cone. Too little or too much and it can go all fluffy and useless.

Whirlpooling does NOTHING that just letting the wort settle will not eventually do - its just a technique for more quickly being able to draw off clear wort, and for losing less volume of wort to your trub. In and of itself it will not improve your beer. It will not make _more_ things settle out, it will not enhance the break... all it does it concentrate the break and hop material into a cone in the middle of the vessel, instead of in a thin layer across the bottom. That's it - purely a processing technique to make things faster and more efficient.

TB


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## thelastspud (4/6/10)

I thought it was really important to cool the wort down quickly, if i have to wait 30 minutes before i start whirlpooling then another 30 minutes for the trub cone to form, isnt that bad for the wort?


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## kevin_smevin (4/6/10)

Its standard practice for commercial brewers who use plate chillers. Its so they leave a cone of hot trub/hops in the centre of the kettle and not transfer it through the plate chiller.

In a commercial setup, which you can emmulate at home, the wort is drawn off from the kettle outlet and pumped back into the kettle about 1/3 of the way up the kettle wall. The wort is reintroduced at an angle of 30 degrees to the kettle wall. The flow rate needs to stay below 3m/s or you will break up your trub particles and they wont settle. I always understood the process involved a 10-15minute whirlpool immediately after flame off, followed by a 15-20minute rest. I didn't know about waiting for convection currents to settle down before beginning your whirlpool, makes sense though. 

I've been doing a whirlpool as described above but for 10 minutes immediately after flame off followed by a 10 minute rest and i get pretty good cone formation. The wort then passes through a beerbelly hop screen and into my plate chiller. This process removes basically all particles that would potentially get stuck in my plate chiller.

I've not done it with an immersion chiller. I think its probably a bit of a waste of time and effort to be honest, for the small amount of extra wort you may recover. Prior to having a plate chiller i chilled with an immersion chiller. Once the wort was cooled i put the lid on the kettle and let the trub settle for about 30 minutes and the used a racking cane to transfer to the fermenter


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## Thirsty Boy (4/6/10)

If you are actively spinning the wort for 10mins... then thats doing the job of waiting for the convection currents to subside. What you are trying to avoid is having your cone form & stuff settle to the bottom and then be stirred straight back up by convection currents. With my electric element its 5 mins or less - with a 4 ring burner I used once the wort was still churning 25mins after flame out - whirlpooling would have been a waste of time and effort.

The other thing to remember is that the whirlpool doesn't magically suck stuff to the bottom of the pot... all it does is sweep things into the middle as they settle out. If things wouldn't settle to the bottom in 10minutes with no whirlpool, then they aren't on the bottom _with_ a whirlpool. Quite the opposite.

Once the wort stops spinning.. your cone is as formed as its going to get.. the rest of the time is just waiting for gravity to pull anything else to the bottom in the normal old fashion and for things to "settle in" a little.

DMS could become an issue with longer whirlpool time.. its a compromise. More time equal better trub separation; but costs you...well, more time and also allows more time for DMS to form. If you have no DMS issues... then its no problems. If you start to notice them... then increasing your boil time from 60 to 90 minutes will help, as will reducing the time your wort remains hot. You just have to juggle your time and your results till you get what you are after.


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## Dave70 (4/6/10)

Sorry - slow morning here..

I thought the principle was similar though, just give the keggle a stir so all the hop material ect gets drawn into the centre and you tap off clear wort from the outside. I allways end up with some in the cube but can leave most behind by carefull pouring into the fermenter.
I think having that extra raised ring in the bottom of the keg helps greatly to keep all the rubbish out of the cube though.


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## Phoney (4/6/10)

Anyone here use a paint mixer + drill instead of manually stirring? Im thinking about giving this a go next time.


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## Yeastie Beastie (4/6/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Anyone here use a paint mixer + drill instead of manually stirring? Im thinking about giving this a go next time.



I like the idea of less labour.
But I think with a paint mixer you are generally try to "mix" the wort, moving sh*t all over the joint. 
Theoretically - great idea
Practicality - reverse effects IMO.

Although some sort of centrifuge idea comes to mind, like they use for extracting honey from honeycomb similar to the theory in laboratories to seperate the thin and thick part of our blood etc. Mind you homebrewing is about getting the job done on the cheap not spending thousands on a machine lol. Good equipment doesn't mean you will brew the best beer. Im rambling now....


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## Thirsty Boy (4/6/10)

I spin the wort with a jigger I made to put in my cordless drill - gets a really good fast vortex going. Just need to make sure you don't go so fast you cavitate or that you are blending (and thus stirring air into) the wort. I don't whirpool for any period of time, just till its whizzing around. The action all happens as its slowing down anyway.


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## brettprevans (4/6/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Anyone here use a paint mixer + drill instead of manually stirring? Im thinking about giving this a go next time.


yup. did it for the first time last brew day. piss easy to get a huge whirlpool going. i probably fell foul a few itmes of creating a vortex and mixing air in though. but this was post chill. so it shouldnt matter as youve got to aeratte the wort anyway.


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## PistolPatch (4/6/10)

Hey thanks a heap for the above answers to my long-winded question/s .

That's great to know that it can be done cold. Doing 3 double-batches this weekend so I'll give at least two of them a "whirl" and see how it goes.

Much appreciated,
Pat


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## PistolPatch (6/6/10)

Okay, have just chilled and whirlpooled the first of three double-batches. Got a great whirlpool going with drill etc. Now, 40 minutes later, there is still foam on top and wort is coming out muddy after draining a litre of it.

Are you sure you can whirlpool cold???


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## MCT (6/6/10)

So what's the real issue of getting a bit of break material and hops into the chilled wort?
I can't really notice a difference in my brewed beers, it all settles out in fermentation.

I made a an ESB that scored 41 in a comp in which I remember getting a whole heap of break material and hops into the cube, just to make up space in the cube. 

I'm sure perfect whirlpooling is worthwhile, but I sometimes think it's one of the lesser variables in brewing. How wrong am I?


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## Gulpa (6/6/10)

MCT said:


> So what's the real issue of getting a bit of break material and hops into the chilled wort?
> I can't really notice a difference in my brewed beers, it all settles out in fermentation.
> 
> I made a an ESB that scored 41 in a comp in which I remember getting a whole heap of break material and hops into the cube, just to make up space in the cube.
> ...



Im with you. Break material is a useful yeast nutrient. When I do double batches I find the fermenter that has the hop trub in left in results in a hoppier tasting brew.

I really think the issue is whether you have the patience to let it all settle out in the fermenter. If youre the type that likes to go grain to brain in a week then you probably dont want this stuff in your fermenter, otherwise its all good.

cheers
Andrew.


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## MarkBastard (6/6/10)

What about with no-chill? I've been whirlpooling, though admittedly only for 15 minutes before transferring the cube, and it has sort of worked sort of not worked.

I notice on the other hand when transferring from cube to fermenter, if I'm careful the wort pours out extremely clear and I have a nice amount of crap left in the cube at the bottom that I leave behind.

So I'm thinking when using a cube the whirfloc causes the break to stick to the bottom of the cube anyway so I dunno if it's worth whirlpooling, or perhaps not even worth caring so much about leaving any material behind in the kettle.


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## PistolPatch (6/6/10)

okay in the interests of science , we decided to do the following...

a) Cold whirlpool

b)No whirlpool

c) Hot whirlpool with immersion chiller in

Haven't done the last brew yet but so far...

A has yielded 44lts. It had 2.2lts of cloudy run-off plus 5lts of trub.

B has yielded 49 lts. It had 2.5lts of cloudy run-off and 800mls of trub.

We just found a problem though. On the first batch the wort was running so badly, I turned the "pick up tube" up. So the above figures are bullshit. Maybe if I had turned the tube back down we would have got a lot less than 5lts of trub???

Just goes to show that even when you do a simultaneous side by side, you can't be really confident in your figures.

I mean I'm not even confident that Lloyd can remain upright for another hour -


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## O'Henry (6/6/10)

Sounds like you are having a blast Patch. I'll be at the next one for sure!


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## Nick JD (6/6/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I notice on the other hand when transferring from cube to fermenter, if I'm careful the wort pours out extremely clear and I have a nice amount of crap left in the cube at the bottom that I leave behind.



I've heard people say that cooling wort with break material at the bottom is bad. I've done both and haven't noticed any difference. 

All of my brews have zero hot or cold break in them. It's easy to leave them behind so I do.

When I get some rapid cooling equipment, then I suppose I'll have break material in my fermenter.


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## PistolPatch (6/6/10)

Next one is in 3 weeks theoreticallly but every time we need to do something, Lloydie keeps threatening to spew! I told him not to drink last night but does he listen???

WTF is a delayed hangover? He is looking bad!!!


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## PistolPatch (6/6/10)

C = 200ml before getting clear run-off.


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## PistolPatch (6/6/10)

5.5lts trub on C.

Yield on C = 24.5 + 19 lts


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## sama (7/6/10)

MCT said:


> So what's the real issue of getting a bit of break material and hops into the chilled wort?
> I can't really notice a difference in my brewed beers, it all settles out in fermentation.
> I'm sure perfect whirlpooling is worthwhile, but I sometimes think it's one of the lesser variables in brewing. How wrong am I?



I totally agree.


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## O'Henry (7/6/10)

Too much hot break can impact yeast growth and result in under attenuated beer or higher fusel alcohols being produced. But 10-20% into the fermenter can be beneficial to yeast health. It is a fine line. Also, the relationship between hot and cold break is proportional, so if you have more HB, then you will have less CB and visa versa.

Edit: grammaz


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## seemax (7/6/10)

I use a large spoon to whirlpool for 30secs a few minutes after flameout, at which point there is little or no convection. Wait 5mins then drain from the tap into my no-chill cube. Almost every time there lies a lovely cone of trub and other crap. The last drops of wort a very clear.

Once it's cooled to ambient there is a good layer of (i assume) cold break in the cube. I pour slowly into the fermentor and usually let some of the break material flow in... and waste 0.5L or so of the wort.

Then again I've fermented directly in the cube, cold break and all....it settles out anyway and doesn't seem to produce any obvious undesired flavours.


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## Thirsty Boy (8/6/10)

MCT said:


> So what's the real issue of getting a bit of break material and hops into the chilled wort?
> I can't really notice a difference in my brewed beers, it all settles out in fermentation.
> 
> I made a an ESB that scored 41 in a comp in which I remember getting a whole heap of break material and hops into the cube, just to make up space in the cube.
> ...



Its incremental improvements - sure, a bit of break into your fermenter isn't the worst thing you can do. But there is a lot of evidence that all other things being equal, cleaner cast wort makes for better tasting more stable beer...

If you are on the hunt for ways to improve your beer.. then keeping trub out of the fermenter is one step to take. It wont turn your crappy beer into good beer, it wont turn your good beer into great beer.. but it very well could help you to more consistently turn out beers with clear, well defined flavour profiles.

Its just one more nugget to toss into the basket of stuff that all adds up to brewing good beer every time you fire up the kettle.
'
Great beers come from inspiration and passion and a healthy dose of good luck - but great beer won't get a chance to be great unless it's _good_ first; and consistently good beer comes from dotting your Is & crossing your Ts.


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## kevin_smevin (8/6/10)

I haven't noticed any bad effects of having cold break in the fermenter. Anyone using a plate chiller will have cold break in their fermenter. Of course in most modern commercial breweries, they also have conical fermenters to they can just open a tap and drain the trub soon after transfer. I know a couple of people that use plate chillers and leave their wort in a fermenter in a fridge overnight to let the cold break settle, and then rack into another fementer the following day and pitch yeast and swear its the way to go.


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## PistolPatch (8/6/10)

Dunno who did all those consecutive posts under my name on Sunday  but thanks for keeping the thread on track you guys above. We'll be doing another three double-batches in 2-3 weeks so might try the same schedule again - in daylight and with less fuel on board .

Has anyone noticed it being harder to get a good cone with double batches versus single batches? Just thinking that this might be part of the reason for not getting brilliant results on Sunday. I have whirlpooled in the past and got a great cone but can't remember if this was with single or double batches.

Thanks,
Pat


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## Fatgodzilla (9/6/10)

PistolPatch said:


> I have whirlpooled in the past and got a great cone but can't remember if this was with single or double batches.
> Pat



You are not supposed to smoke the hops Pat.


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## Phoney (10/10/10)

So ive just read half a dozen threads on whirlpooling, and no-one seems to mention the effects of letting your wort sit hot at >90C on hop additions. TB earlier in this thread advised to let your wort sit for 30 mins after WP'ing!! But what is this going to do to those 5min, 10min, 15min etc hop additions? Im thinking it'll turn them into flavour additions and any aroma will be long gone by then...

I have just started using a gravity fed plate chiller, so chilling the wort and then whirlpooling is out of the question for me, and im worried that letting my wort sit there for any longer than 10mins after whirlpooling is going to be detrimental to those lovely aromas and giving me additional - unwanted - IBU's.... Particularly if you are no-chilling it would be even worse... 

Are you supposed to add those late kettle and flameout additions after whirlpooling while you are waiting for your cone to form?

Am I on to something or completely missing something here?

Cheers


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## suorama (11/10/10)

I think lot of your question phoneyhuh earlier. And I think I get some answer to me by thinking it. If wort is with whirpool all the time, you can just stop heating and whirpool system at same time. So you need only wait that 10min and start take out wort. Same time because wort moving all the time, it not burn to bottom or immersion heaters that easy. And hops also moving and release their own materials better.

You can even start cooling if you use your pump to cause whirpool, same time at you shut heating off...


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## felten (11/10/10)

I don't think the time is an problem, think about commercial brewers, they use the same type of hopping schedule's as homebrewers, and take infinitely longer to whirpool and chill their wort without any issues.


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## suorama (11/10/10)

felten said:


> I don't think the time is an problem, think about commercial brewers, they use the same type of hopping schedule's as homebrewers, and take infinitely longer to whirpool and chill their wort without any issues.



Sorry my ironic sound, but where you think I get my solution . Well, ok I'm not know anything about commercial brewing. But that might be one solution.

I explain more. If you take wort from bottom valve and pump it back to kettle. And angle of that returning wort is good, wort start running with circle. Ok.
So, you can use whirpool with whole boiling time and you can start circulate cooling water immediately when heat is off. Ofcourse that means you need recycle wort via chiller whole boiling time. If you not use valves. Do I need tell more?


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## peaky (11/10/10)

I chill with a copper coil immersion chiller, remove the chiller then get as good a whirlpool going as I can with a big spoon, cover the kettle with al foil and leave it to rest for 20 minutes. Then run the wort off.
Not sure if this is the 'correct' way to do it but my wort always runs clear right from the beginning of the run off. Works perfect for me!


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## kevin_smevin (11/10/10)

If your using a plate chiller, the idea of the whirlpool is to seperate hot break and hops etc from your wort so they dont clog up your plate chiller. I think if your start whirlpooling while your still boiling it wont work very well - the movement of the wort due to boiling will disrupt the whirlpool action and thus not a good whirlpool. So, its best to turn flame off, whirlpool 10 minutes and then rest for 10 minutes to let the trub settles into a cone. Commercial breweries add aroma additions into the whirlpool, so i guess you could do this just before finishing the whirlpool (first ten minutes) and then it is only in for 10 minutes prior to being cooled. The other way to get late hopped character while using a plate chiller is to use a hopback.


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## Bill F (11/10/10)

I've only started whirlpooling fairly recently but I'm definately a convert. 

I whirlpool after cooling with an immersion chiller which I remove (but I like the idea of getting a quicker chill by getting it moving while the coil is in and will probably try that though i'm a little concerned about increased O2 exposure before its cooled - but maybe its not an issue if as claimed, commercial brewers are happy to whirlpool vigorously at flame out or before). 

I stir with a large stainless spatula (that has been in the kettle since flame out) and only for as long as it takes to get a good symetrical rotation going - in my kettle it takes another 10-15 min for it to come to rest so you can think about running off. 

This might be stating the obvious but I don't imagine whirlpooling will work if your kettle outlet is in the centre of the vessel - I assume it needs to be on the side so that outletting isn't going to erode the trub and deliver it to the fermenter/hopback/plate chiller before anything else.


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## SG9090 (12/10/10)

I whirlpool after the wort is chilled and then let it sit for 45min, The wort run off is very very clear.


In regards to the effects of whirlpooling hot it will add extra IBU's to the recipe.There is a very good pod cast on the brewing network http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/668 Jamil is attempting to clone Epic APA. The head brewer of Epic gives the recipe 45 IBUs in Jamil's clone which they brew, taste and claim as cloned, their IBU was 23 they go futher on saying that all the zero min and whirlpool additions add extra IBU's. How you caculate the IBU from whirlpooling *accurately* not sure.


After leasoning to this podcast im going to give this APA a go, sound awesome.


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## Acasta (12/10/10)

I asked a similar question not too long ago and was shown this great link here: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Whirlpooling


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## rangaz (23/10/10)

I've tried three different methods.
take off the gas, WP with a spoon and leave ten mins then transfer hot to secondary vessel for chilling. got a really clear wort but of course the cold break still ended up in the fermenter.

next i tried chilling first then whirlpooling with a spoon. For some reason the WP doesnt work as well for me when the wort is cold.

now I've got a plate chiller, I WP hot, leave for ten minutes then start chilling into the fermenter. This gives me very clear wort before it gets to the chiller but I still end up with cold break in the fermenter, which doesn't bother me. I figure its ok to leave it hot for 15mins as the big breweries do so for much longer while they're whirlpooling.


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## peaky (23/10/10)

Acasta said:


> I asked a similar question not too long ago and was shown this great link here: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Whirlpooling



The 'Whirlpooling After Wort Chilling' method shown here is exactly how I do it, and my results are also exactly the same. Almost zero trub and/or break material in my fermenter :icon_cheers:


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## TidalPete (23/10/10)

Still to add my plate chiller to my HERMS so still using an immersion which chills the hot wort to the desired temp & is withdrawn before whirlpooling. Wort then sits for 20 minutes or so before being drained to the fermenter through a ss mesh filter & apparently crystal clear although some break must find it's way through the filter. 
Whatever's left in the kettle is poured into a container & left to settle overnight before being poured into a 2\3litre juice bottle & frozen for use in future starters.

TP


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## zoigl (23/10/10)

I use a 600 mm cooks whisk to whirl, I have tried paddles and spoons but the big whisk works best for me
I am still trying to work out whether to whirl hot or cold, but I think cold whirl should be better with my immersion chiller


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## Dazza_devil (23/10/10)

I just did my first whirlpool today and lost 3 litres to kettle trub after siphoning from the kettle to fermenter. Things didn't settle out very well at all and I will need to revise this part of the equation as a high priority. I whirpooled after flameout and then put my pot in the bath to cool. I think it needed to sit for longer and should of had some whirfloc in there perhaps.


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## sinkas (8/11/10)

SO I tried to whirpool on the weekend, 
through a 1/2 incopper tube bent, via a CFC convoluted chiller, adn march pump., could not get enough speed up to do much at all, definitely not a whirlpool


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## Silo Ted (8/11/10)

I dont have much luck with whirlpooling , does the addition of whirfloc make a big impact - loose leaf irish moss is what I use and even if I hydrate it first it makeslittle difference. Im not leaving it for very long though so that could be a tip

With no chill though, isnt the whole effectiveness based on heat sterilisation? To leave wort for too long after flameout then becomes a tradeoff to the NC cube process.


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## crozdog (8/11/10)

I'm a no chiller. With my setup I leave the kettle for a while to let the convection currents settle down (takes about 15 mins as my burner is in a cast base which holds a bit of heat), then use my old trusty coopers spoon to give a good stir around the edge to get the whole wort moving. Wait 5-10 mins for movement to stop, then drain to cubes. 

Due to the height of the outlet I have to tilt the kettle a bit at the end to get the last of the wort out & do get a little bit of break / trub but try & avoid getting too much due to the issue previously mentioned. When I use a cube I always tip the whole cube into the fermenter break & all.

Works for me


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## manticle (8/11/10)

Silo Ted said:


> I dont have much luck with whirlpooling , does the addition of whirfloc make a big impact - loose leaf irish moss is what I use and even if I hydrate it first it makeslittle difference. Im not leaving it for very long though so that could be a tip
> 
> With no chill though, isnt the whole effectiveness based on heat sterilisation? To leave wort for too long after flameout then becomes a tradeoff to the NC cube process.



That amount of wort (presuming you are cubing at least 20 L) takes a fair while to drop heat and it's only when it gets to the high 60s that you need to be concerned (that and the amount of time it spends between high single digits and high 60s). I leave mine 10 minutes after flameout for the convection currents to settle, then check. If the currents are vastly reduced/stopped I then whirlpool for as long as I can stand (hand held spoon, naked arm, hot wort and steam). I then leave it 10 minutes and check it - if there's still a fair amount of break material floating around I leave another 10. That's possibly 30 minutes after flameout that my wort is left and I guarantee that stuff would leave a nasty scar on your arm if you spilt it on yourself. Next time I brew I'll measure the temperature at each point but to answer your question - your problem is probably the amount of time you leave the thing for before NC and if you try leaving it longer, I bet you get a better result (presuming of course that your whirlpool is effective.

Most effective WP method I've done (posted about this somewhere from memory) was shown to me by Fents. You need to create an actual whirlpool (not just a gentle swirl). You are trying to bring all the crud into the centre so that it actually drops into the centre away from the tap thread. For me this means stirring in a circular motion then increasing the speed and decreasing the diameter until you have a genuine whirlpool that would drown superman. You will aerate a little but try and splash as little as possible to reduce that.

At the end of draining you will see a nice, centrally placed lot of proteinaceous crap mixed with hop debris. This you can drain into a container, cover and refrigerate. More crap will drop to the bottom and you can use this for your starter. I always boil and chill it again first though.


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## Cocko (8/11/10)

Yep, as Manticle says, you wanna get that bitch really whirlpooling! Like a cyclone in the centre.... Fents told me how to do it too, not shown, but I remember him saying "It should take 10-15 minutes to stop spinning" [Thats in a 120L kettle]....

After a good whirlpool and cubing:


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## manticle (8/11/10)

That's the stuff.

So easy to get all but the last few hundred mL of clear wort before the trub even thinks of intruding and that's with my kettle on a slight angle.


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## Silo Ted (8/11/10)

Cheers Manticle. You raise a good point about the temperature, and essentially over half an hour a volume of 27 litres in my kettle should only drop by about 2 degrees. What I find is that without whirlpooning, the wort goes into a cube, then when transferred most of the material stays behind . Problem is, enough gets through to the fermenter, so by the time the yeast trub is formed as well, the crap at the bottom extends beyond the tap outlet, which of course makes it into the beer as more stuff to settle out. Quite surprisingly though, with no whirlpooling, often forgotten irish moss, and no fining, some beers are still nice and clear, as long as they are not disturbed while conditioning, and kept in the fridge a day prior to opening. Lees crap in the final bottles would be good though, and i will use these tips next time I brew, also get some whirlfloc tablets to try them out. 
Cocko, that photo is amazing, the clarity of the ring of wort around the edge is unlike anything you wouold see in my kettle


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## ekul (8/11/10)

The two things that have made my whirlpooling work have been using less whirfloc (1/4 tab per batch max) and flowers in the boil. I don't know how using less whirfloc works but thats what i was told and it really does work. I used to lose 5-6 litres to break and now i don't lose any.

Using some flowers in the boil holds the break together and helps form the 'cone' that people talk about. The last 3 brews i've been able to get every last drop of wort out whilst getting very little hot break into the fermenter.


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## Dazza_devil (8/11/10)

Only done it once so far, I got the shit in the middle like Cocko but it migrated toward my siphon inlet as I siphoned from the edge of the kettle. I didn't use any whirfloc and just gave the wort a good spinning before cooling the kettle in the bath. Even after transportation of the kettle, the shit still remained mostly central but perhaps could of been a bit tighter and deeper.
I lost 3 litres to trub and will be using an inlet strainer of some description next time.


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