# Apa Recipe Critique



## MattC (15/3/09)

Please any hints and advice for modifying this recipe will be appreciated.

Came up with this recipe for an AG APA, Havnt used Simcoe and Cascade hops before, however Im told that when used with Amarillo, these three hops complement each other very well.




Hop Bandit APA 
American Pale Ale 


Type: All Grain
Date: 14/03/2009 
Batch Size: 26.00 L
Brewer: Matt Cawley 
Boil Size: 33.13 L Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: My Mash Stuff 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.50 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 77.59 % 
1.00 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 17.24 % 
0.15 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (157.6 EBC) Grain 2.59 % 
0.15 kg Carared (60.0 EBC) Grain 2.59 % 
15.00 gm Amarillo [8.20 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops - 
15.00 gm Cascade [6.30 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops - 
10.00 gm Amarillo [8.20 %] (60 min) Hops 7.8 IBU 
15.00 gm Simcoe [12.30 %] (60 min) Hops 17.6 IBU 
10.00 gm Cascade [6.30 %] (10 min) Hops 2.2 IBU 
10.00 gm Simcoe [12.30 %] (10 min) Hops 4.3 IBU 
10.00 gm Amarillo [8.20 %] (10 min) Hops 2.8 IBU 
10.00 gm Cascade [6.30 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 
10.00 gm Amarillo [8.20 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc 
1 Pkgs American Ale (Craftbrewer #AKA (US-05)) Yeast-Ale 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.90 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 % 
Bitterness: 34.7 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l 
Est Color: 14.5 EBC Color: Color 


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out Total Grain Weight: 5.80 kg 
Sparge Water: 23.81 L Grain Temperature: 22.2 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 22.2 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash In Add 15.13 L of water at 74.4 C 67.8 C 



Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time). 
Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2) Volumes of CO2: 2.4 
Pressure/Weight: 74.4 KPA Carbonation Used: - 
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 4.0 C Age for: 28.0 days 
Storage Temperature: 11.1 C


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## bradsbrew (15/3/09)

Looks like alot of wheat I usually only go 150 to 200g. And 50g of choc malt goes alright in an APA. 
I havnt used simcoe before but cascade and amarillo go great together, my 3 are usually cascade. willamette and amarillo.
But it looks like a tasty brew.
Cheers Brad


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## chappo1970 (15/3/09)

Big hops should be nice simcoe, cascades and amarillo's :wub: 

Looks good!


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## MattC (15/3/09)

Yeah, might decrease the Wheat a bit I think...

Cheers Boys


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## chappo1970 (15/3/09)

Meh! I liked the wheat but that's my taste I suppose?


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## Stuster (15/3/09)

Yeah, I think the wheat is fine. Recipe looks good. I've never used MO in an APA, but it should be delicious.


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## technocat (15/3/09)

Yeah I would cut the wheat back to 200gr. Traditional APA's are hop driven with a slight hint of caramel or honey.
Not being critical just a suggestion, your brew go for it.


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## katana (15/3/09)

Stuff Brewin`! 

It`s too nice a day, Matt.

Down tools and head over to the Shawsy for some pool, vibes and schooeys!

:chug: :beerbang: :chug:


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## Steve (15/3/09)

Yep - 250gms Wheat. Is the carared necessary? Never seen it in an APA before.

I'd be bittering with the Simcoe and then go the cascade and amarillo. I love simcoe.

Chuck some whirlfloc in at 10-15 if you have some too.

Cheers
Steve


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## mje1980 (15/3/09)

Beernut said:


> Traditional APA's are hop driven with a slight hint of caramel or honey.




Whats a traditional APA??. Just curious


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## BoilerBoy (15/3/09)

The wheat will be fine, just an interesting dimension to the apa style, I have used similar amounts previously and it worked out no worries.

As for simcoe, cascade & amarillo there all best mates and compliment each other perfectly.

Hope it goes well.

BB


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## Bribie G (15/3/09)

The carared might go better in an American Amber but at 150g won't do any harm. If it's the latest batch from Ross the aroma is sensational and should give a bit of 'honey' background for sure. I put a bit in just about everything nowadays.

If you already have the Maris Otter that's fine, but I would personally go rather for BB ale or it might turn out a bit too big malt especially as it will be bumped up a tad by the Carared. BB is a nice clean subdued malt - I would guess it's a bit more like American 2 row than MO, and will let the hops shine through.

If you want a fabulous hit of aroma hops try 20g of Cascade or Amarillo made into a hop tea with boiling water, sit till cool, then strain well into secondary fermenter two days before bottling :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: I usually do mine the same day as Polyclaring.


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## Fourstar (15/3/09)

mje1980 said:


> Whats a traditional APA??. Just curious



An classic example of the style mje1980 would be Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.

Personally i think your recipe looks like a halfcast American APA and an Engligh bitter due to the malt bill. It would taste awesome but it just doesn't feel like a true APA to me anymore. Only because I listened to the brewing network APA podcast lastweek. Basically they say if its American, keep the grain bill hop profile local. Simple.

So if it was mine, i would be using rock stock JW Ale malt. Standard 2-row. 5% Each of Munich and Wheat if you want to use wheat (if you are only using it for mouthfeel and head retention, the cyrstal will help you with that) and your choice of a light crystal malt (less than 50Lov) up to 5-6%.

an example would be my current APA on tap. All i can say is awesome, big and floral, slighty sweet and grainy/bready with a dry bitter finish.

Cheers :icon_cheers: 


Cascading APA 
American Pale Ale 

Type: All Grain
Date: 1/03/2009 
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Brewer: Braden 
Boil Size: 30.90 L Asst Brewer: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.20 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (3.0 SRM) Grain 88.1 % 
0.35 kg Crystal (Joe White) (34.2 SRM) Grain 5.9 % 
0.35 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (8.9 SRM) Grain 5.9 % 
25.00 gm Horizon [11.30%] (60 min) Hops 31.2 IBU 
30.00 gm Cascade [6.30%] (10 min) Hops 7.6 IBU 
30.00 gm Cascade [6.30%] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile
Measured Original Gravity: 1.056 SG 
Measured Final Gravity: 1.016 SG 
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 %


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## bconnery (15/3/09)

There's a lot of scope for malt bill in APAs. 
Some have that caramel flavour underneath, approaching amber ales in colour, and some are much lighter and less driven by crystal. 
I wouldn't change that grain bill at all this time. It will make a nice APA with a bit of crystal flavour. Next time you could play and try different grains for your base. 
Carared is a great crystal malt I think. 
Maris Otter is a great base malt in general, and works very well in an APA. 
The hops look good to me. You have a wide range to play with hop addition wise from those with a decent but not crazy hop flavour to entirely hop driven, such as those with no bittering and all late additions.


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## Kai (15/3/09)

It looks like an APA to me, and a nice tasting one. Nothing wrong with MO, wheat or carared in there. I've tasted very nice APA's that have been made with 100% Munich malt.


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## mje1980 (15/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> An classic example of the style mje1980 would be Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.




Any others?


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## Fourstar (15/3/09)

Locally Made Examples: The obvious Little Creatures Pale Ale. Matilda Bay Alpha Pale Ale, Snowy Mountain Brewery - Crackenback, Mildura Brewery - Storm are some decent examples you can get these from your local good bottle shopr or First Choice/Dans.

BJCP.org's examples http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php#1a


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## technocat (15/3/09)

mje1980 said:


> Any others?



Carared just might be in this nice drop of mirror pond from Oregen



View attachment 25456
View attachment 25457


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## mje1980 (15/3/09)

Beernut said:


> Carared just might be in this nice drop of mirror pond from Oregen
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Lucky me, i just bought some cara red, !!


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## buttersd70 (15/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> snip...
> Personally i think your recipe looks like a halfcast American APA and an Engligh bitter due to the malt bill. It would taste awesome but it just doesn't feel like a true APA to me anymore. Only because I listened to the brewing network APA podcast lastweek. Basically they say if its American, keep the grain bill hop profile local. Simple.
> 
> So if it was mine, i would be using rock stock JW Ale malt. Standard 2-row. 5% Each of Munich and Wheat if you want to use wheat (if you are only using it for mouthfeel and head retention, the cyrstal will help you with that) and your choice of a light crystal malt (less than 50Lov) up to 5-6%.
> ...



Can I paraphrase this, to see if I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly?



> This recipe would be awesome, but not to style. Remove the high quality, super tasty malt, and replace it with a malt that, whilst fairly good for what it is, is rather bland in comparison. You're beer will still be good, just not *as *good. But at least it will be in style, which is, after all, the object of the excersize.



Did I misunderstand? h34r:

edit: OT, I think the wheat is a little high as well....but that's more a (editv2: personal ) taste thing than anything. Simcoe and cascade are great together (I use them often, believe it or not) , I like amarillo and cascade together more than straight amarillo; so I think all 3 together would be excellent.


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## schooey (15/3/09)

I'm with you Butters... I can't see the point of brewing a beer that isn't going to taste as good as what you think you can brew just so it will fit in with the brewing networks podcast or the BJCP guideline...

I think that recipe looks great, the wheat will give you a nice fine silky head and the cara malts will give you a great colour. I really like Simcoe and Cascade together and I reckon this APA would give a lot of others a run for their money at comp time, but hey, thats just me...


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## leeboy (15/3/09)

Mmm Mirror Pond APA. Havent had that for years. Out of deschutes paler ales I prefered Quail Springs IPA the most. Top 5 beers ever for me.
Recipe looks great i think. Again APA's have such wide style guidelines. As Schooey said make what tastes best.


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## geoffi (15/3/09)

I recently made a very similar brew, with Simcoe and Amarillo, but with Centennial instead of Cascade.

About the same amount of wheat too. (I likes me a good dollop of wheat in my PA's.)

And it's tasting pretty bloody good, imho. In fact, considering the amount of Maris Otter in this, I'd say the wheat will be fine.

Go for it is my humble opinion.


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## Gulpa (15/3/09)

Looks good to me. Dont let them scare you off the MO. Best APA ive done was with MO and WLP Burton yeast. And it was definitely an APA. Personally, Id up the flame out addition.

Cheers
Andrew.


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## Fourstar (15/3/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Can I paraphrase this, to see if I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly?
> "This recipe would be awesome, but not to style. "
> Did I misunderstand?



That all that I meant Butters. The OP wanted a 'critique' on his recipe and i gave them just that. It's slightly out of style to be using a base malt thats considered quite 'nutty' like maris otter, nothing more. It will make a great beer as i have already noted and will still be an APA. 

Personally, if I was to use a UK malt in this recipe I would probably use golden promise as it would be 'more to style'. Maybe JW was a bad example as it has a stigma (which is quite unfounded) around here as being in the 'home brand selection' and second rate.

I find JW base malts to be a quite clean and neutral which is 'to style' with an APA. *Flavour: *_Low to moderately high *clean *malt character supports the hop presentation, and may optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity)._ The OP or anyone else can use Barret Burston or whatever they can get your hands on if JW gets peoples panties in a bunch  



schooey said:


> I'm with you Butters... I can't see the point of brewing a beer that isn't going to taste as good as what you think you can brew just so it will fit in with the brewing networks podcast or the BJCP guideline...



Hey Schooey, I completely agree. As I said above, my grounds for using a clean base malt, even in my recipe, were to keep it in style. As ive brewed numerous APA's all with completly different malt bills, so far ive found a clean base malt to be the best to match it style wise and helps the hops stand out. Specialties malts they can go all out on. Weyermann, UK Crystals etc. If the OP doesnt care for a clean neutral base malt then by all means they can continue to use Maris otter. It now just more of an English bitter with a US hop schedule. Either way, i'd probabaly anihiliate a keg of it, post haste! 

Cheers guys! :icon_cheers:


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## schooey (15/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> Hey Schooey, I completely agree. As I said above, my grounds for using a clean base malt, even in my recipe, were to keep it in style. As ive brewed numerous APA's all with completly different malt bills, so far ive found a clean base malt to be the best to match it style wise and helps the hops stand out. Specialties malts they can go all out on. Weyermann, UK Crystals etc. If the OP doesnt care for a clean neutral base malt then by all means they can continue to use Maris otter. It now just more of an English bitter with a US hop schedule. Either way, i'd probabaly anihiliate a keg of it, post haste!



Hey I can appreciate that, dude. In a way we're debating the same side of the argument, its just tastes differ... and that's what makes it interesting. Everyone's feedback is as valuable as the other's I guess


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## Fourstar (15/3/09)

schooey said:


> Hey I can appreciate that, dude. In a way we're debating the same side of the argument, its just tastes differ... and that's what makes it interesting. Everyone's feedback is as valuable as the other's I guess



Exactly what I expect from you guys! :icon_cheers: rather tahn a never ending argument like the chicken and the egg. Some may consider rock stock 2-row to be a waste of time. Others think it has its place, besides some deep dark corner of the brewery in a 'break glass in case of emergency cube' which is also surrounded by razor wire 

How longs a piece of string... which base malt is preferred for which style.... we could go on for hours really.


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## buttersd70 (15/3/09)

I think you've misenterpreted the point of my post, fourstar....it's not an anti-JW thing. I use JW in at least 75% of my beers.....it's an anti "taking styles too seriously, considering them to be the be-all and end-all, interpreting them as gospel instead of guides, and brewing _strictly _to style, to the detriment of making better *beer*" post.

APA is a label, not a lifestyle....

edit: I don't want to get into flaming, or pull this thread any further OT, so I'm just going to leave it there, myself.


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## Fourstar (15/3/09)

Yeah totally agreed butters, im not a style guildeline wh*re either.

cheers.


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## MattC (15/3/09)

Thanks heaps to all who posted their opinions. I see the value in everyone's advice. I have just finished doing the brew. i knocked the Wheat down to 500g and upped the Marris Otter. Would have to agree that by using MO it will result in a more obvious malt profile than if I had used BB or something similar, however, it was what i had at the time. This is only my 5th AG, so some tweaking with this recipe will hopefully results in a regular house brew to be proud of!!!!


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## Fourstar (15/3/09)

Hope you Enjoy MattC, it will be a great beer!

Cheers!


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## glennheinzel (15/3/09)

If you would like to see what your beer might come out like, look no further than Murrays Pale Ale. From the Murrays website http://www.murraysbrewingco.com.au/artman2...lish/our_beers/, it would appear that their Pale Ale uses English malts and Kiwi ("American" style) hops-

"Murrays Nirvana Pale Ale is a hybrid of an American Pale Ale, combined with the classic English Pale Ale. A brilliant light-golden colour, Murrays Nirvana Pale Ale has a full-bodied finish and complex character. With an alcohol content of 4.5% alc/vol, Nirvanas fresh citrusy/spicy aroma and flavour is strongly influenced by generous use of New Zealand-grown Cascade and Hallertau hops. This is well balanced with biscuity/toffee flavours from selected caramalts."


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## Fourstar (15/3/09)

Rukh said:


> "Murray's Nirvana Pale Ale is a hybrid of an American Pale Ale, combined with the classic English Pale Ale.



Looks like what we have been haggling over has a commerical example. Neither American or English! :icon_cheers:


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## dr K (15/3/09)

Within reason, the choice of base malt is going to make very little difference in an APA. An APA needs to be hop driven and clean, clean is easy, do not muddy your malts too much (KISS) and use US05, hop driven again is easy.
I would be looking more at mash temps than base grain when designing an APA.
Do I want a big hoppy beer with a huge malt to support the massive hop character or do I want a refined 4.5-5% where the wonderfull hop aroma is balanced with a delicate bitterness.
My malt of choice is actually Weyermann Vienna (check out their web site for a very simple and very APA-like APA designed by Ray Daniels). Halcyon works a treat, MO is fine as is BB Pale.

K


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## browndog (15/3/09)

You don't want Maris Otter in an APA, if you want to use Maris Otter, make an English beer. It will turn out much better.

cheers

Browndog


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## kram (15/3/09)

browndog said:


> You don't want Maris Otter in an APA, if you want to use Maris Otter, make an English beer. It will turn out much better.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog


Is that why you beat me by 1/3 of a point? Bastard! *takes note*


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## kram (16/3/09)

Thought i'd slightly expand on the above... my take on the whole style thing is if it says "may..." then you may! It doesn't write-off certain malt flavours or say "x is out of style", so why should they be excluded from the malt profile? It specifically mentions a less caramelly profie. It appears origin of ingredients doesn't matter, hello smurto  I refer to the style guidelines for... guidance. I'm a big fan of MO in my APAs. Some pretty terrible beers were made when I didn't know what worked with what and guidelines helped with some direction. This isn't aimed at you Browndawg

"Low to moderately high clean malt character supports the hop presentation, and may optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity). The balance is typically towards the late hops and bitterness, but the malt presence can be substantial."

"Grains that add malt flavour and richness, light sweetness, and toasty or bready notes are often used (along with late hops) to differentiate brands."


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## Fourstar (16/3/09)

browndog said:


> You don't want Maris Otter in an APA, if you want to use Maris Otter, make an English beer. It will turn out much better.
> cheers
> Browndog




Those are my feeling but others think otherwise. Horses for courses and opinions differntiate widely in this community which keeps our topics fruitful. Where does one style begin and another takeover? Is a dry stout still a dry stout if you are using Black Malt instead of Roast Barley? Some would say yes, others would say no. As Butters pointed out, APA is a label, not a lifestyle.

Maybe if this thread was called "pale ale recipe critique" we would not be critiqueing from the same angle. Either way the OP has brewed this bad boy and the beer will be great either way.

Cheers!


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## ramu_gupta (16/3/09)

Thanks for the great comments. As a beginning all grain brewer, I have really enjoyed learning about the effects of different types of malt on beer. 
Cheers,


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## technocat (16/3/09)

I go with fourstar nothing wrong with JWM pale for a good APA and a helluva lot cheaper than MO which I keep for my English beers. The cost of hops in highly hopped beers is now almost half the cost of the grain. Need to get some chinook and amarillo rhizomes and grow my own.


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## Fourstar (16/3/09)

Beernut said:


> Need to get some chinook and amarillo rhizomes and grow my own.



Chinook are easy to get, Amarillo are not available as they are only farmed at the one location in the US. heavily protected.


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## technocat (17/3/09)

Fourstar said:


> Chinook are easy to get, Amarillo are not available as they are only farmed at the one location in the US. heavily protected.



Thats interesting might have to settle for cascade if they are available.


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## Fourstar (17/3/09)

Beernut said:


> Thats interesting might have to settle for cascade if they are available.



If you can find Cascade, im all there! :icon_cheers:


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## gibbocore (18/3/09)

APA i just ordered goods for.

Rangale Pale 
American Pale Ale 

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 22.00 L
Brewer: Gibbo 
Boil Size: 27.88 L 
Boil Time: 60 min 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 63.8 % 
1.00 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (3.2 EBC) Grain 21.3 % 
0.50 kg Carared (39.4 EBC) Grain 10.6 % 
0.20 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (110.0 EBC) Grain 4.3 % 
20.00 gm Simcoe [13.00%] (60 min) Hops 30.2 IBU 
20.00 gm D-Sazz [5.40%] (10 min) Hops 4.6 IBU 
20.00 gm D-Sazz [5.40%] (30 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.048 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.6 % 
Bitterness: 34.8 IBU 
Est Color: 16.2 EBC 

Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 4.70 kg 
Sparge Water: 14.41 L Grain Temperature: 22.2 C 
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 22.2 C 
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 12.26 L of water at 71.8 C 64.0 C 60 min 
Mash Out Add 6.86 L of water at 98.7 C 75.0 C 10 min 

I'm looking forward to tasting Dsazz


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## browndog (18/3/09)

gibbocore said:


> APA i just ordered goods for.
> 
> Rangale Pale
> American Pale Ale
> ...



Mate, you should have named that one "Way Out There APA" 


cheers

Browndog


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## Fourstar (18/3/09)

Looks almost identical to MattC's recipe.

Whats with everyones high %ge of wheat in APA's? No one can escape the wrath of the smurto golden ale when it comes to a malt bill for pale ales!


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## gibbocore (19/3/09)

this is an entirely new grain bill for me as i've always gone the maris otter, caramunich, wheat, munich. I wanted to do something entirely different.

I've always used between 0.8-1kg of wheat malt, people say you cant taste it at those levels, but i can. I reckon it imparts a bready/twang that i like in my ales.


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## Fourstar (19/3/09)

gibbocore said:


> I've always used between 0.8-1kg of wheat malt, people say you cant taste it at those levels, but i can. I reckon it imparts a bready/twang that i like in my ales.



Should be interesting to say the least with approx 15% cyrstal malts you are walking the line of Amber Ale Territory.

I agree with noticing wheat, it adjusts mouthfeel fairly noticably. The more you add, the closer to the body of a weizen it becomes.


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## gibbocore (19/3/09)

yeah, hah, in case you cant tell, i'm not a stickler for style. I've read a lot about what aroma and flavour carared has to offer, and i havn't used a standard 'crystal' (ie. not caramunich which i know is a crystal) for at least a year now, was after a fat tyre type redish bronze.


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## NeilArge (2/10/11)

MattC said:


> Please any hints and advice for modifying this recipe will be appreciated.
> 
> Came up with this recipe for an AG APA, Havnt used Simcoe and Cascade hops before, however Im told that when used with Amarillo, these three hops complement each other very well.
> 
> ...


Hey MattC
How did this brew turn out? I'm just about to start brewing some APAs and thought I'd sample from the postings here. This looks good.
Cheers
ToG


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## IainMcLean (2/10/11)

TunofGrunt said:


> Hey MattC
> How did this brew turn out? I'm just about to start brewing some APAs and thought I'd sample from the postings here. This looks good.
> Cheers
> ToG



try using wyeast American Ale II - 1272 for a real citrus complement to the amarillo....


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## NeilArge (2/10/11)

Iain McLean said:


> try using wyeast American Ale II - 1272 for a real citrus complement to the amarillo....



Thanks Iain. I've not used 1272 before but I'll look into it.

Cheers

ToG


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