# Hop Debris Into Fermenter



## spudfarmerboy (5/8/10)

Hello All,
has anyone got any ideas to how stop the hop debris I get when transferring wort from my kettle to my fermenter? The kettle has a pick up tube at the side of the kettle about an inch from the bottom. When I remove my immersion chiller I have tried whirlpooling, but the wort transferring into the fermenter has heaps of hop crud. Also, I am using hop pellets. Maybe, I haven't whirlpooled properly, what is the correct way? Would using a large hop bag help or maybe a stainless steel strainer to strain the wort as it is transferred to the fermenter. The hop pellet debris is very mushy and I think it would block any sort of hop stopper or strainer mounted on the pick up tube. Any ideas or suitable suggestions appreciated.
Thank You.


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## bum (5/8/10)

spudfarmerboy said:


> Would using a large hop bag help or maybe a stainless steel strainer to strain the wort as it is transferred to the fermenter. The hop pellet debris is very mushy and I think it would block any sort of hop stopper or strainer mounted on the pick up tube. Any ideas or suitable suggestions appreciated.


 
A hop bag (or bags) would do the trick for sure. The strainer would certainly work but I'd personally only use that method if I was sure the chiller had cooled enough to remove the (already possibly slight) risk of HSA (but that might just be me being over cautious). 

Another alternative is to do what I often do and just leave it in there. Obviously this is less attractive (though not 100% problematic) if you're reusing your yeast.


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## reviled (5/8/10)

bum said:


> Another alternative is to do what I often do and just leave it in there. Obviously this is less attractive (though not 100% problematic) if you're reusing your yeast.



I have poor straining and whirlpool methods so do the same, havnt had any problems doing this so far, however if I dry hop and plan on reusing the yeast ill get the beer off the yeast first..


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## Silo Ted (5/8/10)

Are there any scientific reasons why hop debris should not be transferred? I have never used a hop bag, and dont crash chill, but still found that loose pellets into a boil then transferred to the fermenter dont end up with a any debris in the finished beer after bottling. Not a spot in the glass. For all I know this could be introducing flavours that arent acceptable with early and mid additions hanging around in the wort so is this why a hop sock is used by some people?


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## reviled (5/8/10)

Silo Ted said:


> Are there any scientific reasons why hop debris should not be transferred? I have never used a hop bag, and dont crash chill, but still found that loose pellets into a boil then transferred to the fermenter dont end up with a any debris in the finished beer after bottling. Not a spot in the glass. For all I know this could be introducing flavours that arent acceptable with early and mid additions hanging around in the wort so is this why a hop sock is used by some people?



Dont know about scientific reasons, but what ive found is...

The reason the loose pellets that make their way into the fermenter doesnt end up in the glass, is because it drops out when the yeast flocculates - I keg and find the first couple of pints I have will have some hop pellet floating around in the glass, but if I crash cooled the fermenter a couple of days before kegging I dont have this problem... Pity my fridge blew up lol, but a bit of hop pellet doesnt really bother me, and I only ever get it badly when I dry hop! 

Also with the hop sock thing, I dont reckon you get very good utilisation with them, ive tried a few beers that people have brewed using hop socks and the bitterness and hop flavour is way lower than what it should be for the amount of hop used, so personally I think they are a stupid piece of equipment and if I was ever going to consider using one, it would have to be as big as the kettle or damn near close...


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## argon (5/8/10)

reviled said:


> Also with the hop sock thing, I dont reckon you get very good utilisation with them, ive tried a few beers that people have brewed using hop socks and the bitterness and hop flavour is way lower than what it should be for the amount of hop used, so personally I think they are a stupid piece of equipment and if I was ever going to consider using one, it would have to be as big as the kettle or damn near close...



+1 the last batch I did I let the hops fly free and relied on my pickup the only. I usually use a hopsock. I now find that the beer has the strongest hop flavour and aroma ever. :chug: 

I was using whole hops and got a stuck outlet in the kettle, so got myself a false bottom for the kettle now. Whole hops and plugs will be fine and a little bit of pellet debris doesn't bother me... I'd say 95% or more of pellet debris get left behind anyway.

I'll be letting all my hops go commando now... In my experience just a much better profile.


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## Frag_Dog (5/8/10)

The last 2 brews I've done I didn't bother with the HopSock. Not because I thought it would make any different beer, I lost the cut up coat hanger I used to suspend it. I no-chill and most of the hop material drops out with the cold break and doesn't make it to the fermenter.

Why would you remove the immersion chiller before transfering the wort to the fermenter? Couldn't you leave it in and drain with it in there?


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## MeLoveBeer (5/8/10)

Frag_Dog said:


> Why would you remove the immersion chiller before transfering the wort to the fermenter? Couldn't you leave it in and drain with it in there?



I would think that this would be the best method (it would even help to maintain the debris pile while draining off the wort). Can I ask what you're using as kettle finings and how long you are letting everything settle after whirlpooling?


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## Frag_Dog (5/8/10)

MeLoveBeer said:


> I would think that this would be the best method (it would even help to maintain the debris pile while draining off the wort). Can I ask what you're using as kettle finings and how long you are letting everything settle after whirlpooling?



I use whirflock, half a tablet for a 20-23L batch. After flameout I let it sit for 5mins and then start a stir. I then let it spin for 5-10mins until i see less of the break-material rising and falling. Then cube. I still end up with a bit of crap in the cube but almost all of it is bonded together and clear wort between.


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## MeLoveBeer (5/8/10)

I'd just give it longer for the debris to settle (for me I find that 20 minutes is about right). Is the debris pile still intact after you've drained the wort? I'm wondering it the position of your pickup tube is disturbing the pile


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## Banshee (5/8/10)

spudfarmerboy said:


> When I remove my immersion chiller I have tried whirlpooling, but the wort transferring into the fermenter has heaps of hop crud.



I guess you chill then whirlpool. I boil then lift the chiller up whirlpool and chill. I to have pick up tube to the side of the kettle some centimetres from the bottom. I take some hops aswell. I don't worry they are sterile and you will be racking off straight after fermentation is complete.

Relax have a homebrew.


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## Fents (5/8/10)




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## SpillsMostOfIt (5/8/10)

Fents said:


>



Pah! The vast majority of issues discussed on this site can be fixed with:


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## big78sam (5/8/10)

OK so this is slightly OT but are related questions I've had for some time. Warning I may ramble a bit below

MeLoveBeer says he leaves the hot liquor in the fermenter for 20 minutes after flame out to allow all the crap to settle. However, people also talk about No chill and how leaving the wort in the NC cube rather than chilling immediately affects the bitterness - the general rule of thumb seems to be taking 10 minutes off all hop additions to compensate for NC. However, wouldn't leaving the wort in the kettle for 20 minutes have a similar impact, i.e. the hops continue to be held at a sufficient temperature to continue to produce bitterness and scrub aroma. 

I have always tried to get the wort into the cube within 5 minutes and then immediately slow chill by putting the cube in the laundry trough with some iced water. My reasoning was that I'd prefer some extra crud in the cube (that could later be removed by crash chilling, racking, finings etc) rather than ending up with a beer that's too bitter and where some of the aroma has been scrubbed by leaving the hops at high temerature for too long. Since my fermetation fridge died I havent been able to crash chill but I figure the crash chilling happens in the bottle instead as I dont keg.

So my questions are, does leaving the hot liquor in the kettle for 20 minutes have a similar effect to NC? Is 5 minutes just not enough (my beer is quite cloudy) to allow the crud to settle? Will this actually cool the liquor quicker than placing in a cube and slow chilling - given surface area, heat transfer in air tight v open containers, etc? 

Finally, when I transfer from cube to fermenter I aerate by shaking the crap out of the cube as I pour the wort into the fermenter in stages. This means all the crub (cold break, hops etc) ends up in the fermenter. Frag dog talks about the crap in the cube separating out. Do you transfer everything to the fermenter or leave the crap behind?


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## Bribie G (5/8/10)

I have religiously used hopsocks. Doing a couple of batches today using hop pellets, I might try adding them commando style, then caragheenan and a whirlpool and leave 20 mins and see how it goes this time. Also I might try chocking up the front of the urns to get trub settling to the rear away from the tap if possible.


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## reviled (5/8/10)

BribieG said:


> I have religiously used hopsocks. Doing a couple of batches today using hop pellets, I might try adding them commando style, then caragheenan and a whirlpool and leave 20 mins and see how it goes this time. Also I might try chocking up the front of the urns to get trub settling to the rear away from the tap if possible.




How big is your hop sock bribie?

I reckon add them commando for a change, you will probably be pleasantly surprised, allthough you dont tend to like the hoppier beers from memory so it may just mean you start using less hops which is allways good for the pocket


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## Bribie G (5/8/10)

reviled said:


> How big is your hop sock bribie?
> 
> I reckon add them commando for a change, you will probably be pleasantly surprised, allthough you dont tend to like the hoppier beers from memory so it may just mean you start using less hops which is allways good for the pocket



It's my new Aussie Rhineland Pils :lol: with 20g Northern Brewer and 30g Saaz added late, so not huge amounts of vegetation going in there.
Edit: it will be interesting to see if I get a better aroma hit doing it this way.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (5/8/10)

I expect people will try to rationalise their processes or theories in all sorts of different ways. Here's how I explain/rationalise/excuse mine.

I'm starting off with stuff (crushed grain, vegetable matter and water) that is pretty much the very definition of cloudy, murky goo. I want clear, murkless beer.

Gravity (and cold when available) will perform most of my clarification for me - sometimes it takes longer than I might like, but them's the breaks (no pun intended). I try to treat each and every time I transfer liquid from one vessel to another as a chance to leave behind some of what gravity has drawn to the bottom of the first vessel. To reinforce that idea, consider the parallel idea of racking beer to a secondary fermenter off the yeast cake; I think of each transfer similarly.

That paragraph above really is fundamental to the way I get clear (ish) beer. [OK... sometimes I filter finished beer to try and take a shortcut, but it usually just makes me angrier than I need to be and of late I have been just as happy with my unfiltered beer, even though it did take a bit longer to be clear enough.]

I try to get clear (hot) wort out of my kettle. Part of how I do that is with kettle finings and part of it is from gravity and what I call whirlpooling.

I aim to get a NCCube full of wort out of my kettle, leaving behind a wadge of hot break, starchy muck and hop matter. That does mean leaving behind some wort in the kettle. I've tried to filter at this point; never again.

I aim to get about 20litres or so of (significantly cooler) wort into my fermenter. This means I have some room to move if I suspect there is anything I would rather not have in my fermenter; I can let it remain in my cube. [I don't worry too much about cold break because I *believe* it does no harm.] I used to (coarsely) filter at this point; not now.

When I transfer from my fermenter into my keg or bottles, I aim to leave behind as much yeasty sludge as I can and expect to lose some beer to this. Ditto when I go from keg/bottle to the glass. If the keg/bottle has been sitting around long enough, there will be something other than pure beer at the very bottom of it.

I realise I've stated what to some is the forking obvious and that I've probably been less than particularly elegant, but I guarantee (with caveats) that if you consider this each time you move beer around, you will not have (too many) problems.


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## MeLoveBeer (5/8/10)

I NC myself and started waiting the 20 mins because I was originally running off the wort after only 5-10 and was getting a truck load of hop crud in the NC cube and fermenter. I did a bit of research (the Brew Strong podcast on the boil), discovered that John Palmer leaves his for a whole 30 mins to settle (he doesn't NC though) and eventually settled on 20 mins for my own brews.

The 20 mins works for me, but I haven't been brewing with a lot of late hop additions and am far from an experienced brewer.

Since modifying my schedule I get nothing but clear wort and cold break going into the fermenter (so do the same as you and shake and pour vigorously from the NC cube to add oxygen)


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## warra48 (5/8/10)

Mrs warra made me a hopsock.
I use it as a filter in the fermenter when draining from the kettle, allowing me to drain as fast as I can with no worries about hop debris.
Works a treat, and since I've started using it that way, it gives me an extra litre or two of beer, which otherwise was left behind.


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## MeLoveBeer (5/8/10)

warra48 said:


> allowing me to drain as fast as I can with no worries about hop debris.



Think I'm going to end up with one of BB's hopscreens (the speed with which I'm currently draining the wort out of the kettle is bugging the [email protected] out of me); kettle finings and a good whirlpool do the job okay though (all be it a bit slowly)


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## spudfarmerboy (5/8/10)

Thanks to all for the replies. After I removed the immersion chiller, I whirpooled with a large spoon for about 5 mins and then only left it for another few minutes before I transferred it to the fermenter. Seems I might need to let it settle alot longer. I wish to reuse the yeast and am abit worried about the hop debris. I had a look at the fermenter about half an hour ago and you can see a layer of hop debris above the yeast cake.
A couple of questions.
If using a large hop sock to boil the hops in (the ones Ross sells), do you get a reduced hop flavour/aroma?
How do other people whirlpool and what do they use?
Do the Beerbelly hopscreens work with pellets?
Cheers


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## hsb (5/8/10)

I'd say the B/B screens work best with Flowers/Plugs. In my experience at least. The pellets break up small enough for some material to get through, though I'm sure it does some good in holding back the majority of hop pellet material. A hopsock between kettle and fermenter/cube sounds like a good idea to me, as per warra on pg 1.

I would imagine you _have to _get a reduced hop flavour from using a socky, chemistry init but a lot of people use them so I'm sure you'd be OK and you can just compensate accordingly if you don't get the hop hit you're after.

Personally I prefer to see those hops run free in the boil but definitely a personal preference, no real reason not to use a hopsock if you find it more workable.


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## felten (5/8/10)

I haven't has much success with my whirlpooling lately, I've been taking it off the heat and stirring straight away for a minute or so and then letting it sit for 30m. On my last brew I could see the trub actually rising up to the surface from the cone while I was siphoning so I definitely have to work on my routine, either letting it sit before for a while before WPing or stirring it longer.


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## sama (5/8/10)

i dont bother with whirlpooling. After 15min of the wort sitting still while the imersion chiller does its thing, i find the majority of crap settles to the bottom of the kettle and stays there, while the cleaner liquid is drawn off. I get a little bit of crap drawn through the pickup tube initially ( first 10 sec of draining) but then it seems to draw the lighter/cleaner liquid before the heavy trub.I use gravity and not a pump,which id say dosent suck with as much force.When im nearing the bottom and start sucking the last litre of crap out i stop. I compensate for this with a 20litre recipe and collect only 19litresof clean wort. It dosent break the bank


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