# Planning Braumeister clone build - Need advice



## neo__04 (23/4/14)

Hey all,

Planning a Braumeister clone build, have seen a lot of build and understand the basic theory of it all.

Just like to have a few questions clarified.

In regards to pot sizes, It seems the standard sort of build for standard batches, 20l approx, used a 50l main pot and 19l big w inner. That sound about right? Thats roughly the max size brew for that setup?

Best place to get 50l stainless pot these days?

Has there been a certain size hole for the grain filters decided on from people currently brewing with this setup?

The heating element has to be round to fit around the inner pot, so the inner pot silicon gasket can seal on the main pot?

I should be able to run a 3kw - 3.6kw element, no problems running such a high wattage element? Just like to shorten the brew day if possible or pump out a few brews in a session.

No doubt i will have more questions, but some clarification on a few issues would be great.


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## MastersBrewery (23/4/14)

Lots of question!!
Well lets see I think the best vessel calculation was the spread sheet Lael uses. In this post also lots of info in that post on where to get stuff.
Standard stainless per sheet 2mm thick 3mm holes on standard pitch, then some stainless fly wire mesh.
2.4kw element is fine for a single batch, and they aren't round when you buy them you shape them yourself
the biggest boil in a 50l vessel would be no more than 30l final volume so 35l pre-boil, and your risking boil over
also probably easier to use an over the side element to help with ramp times


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## neo__04 (23/4/14)

Thanks for the answers. Yeah Lael's build is where im basing a lot of my research off.
With the mesh, is that 2mm mesh and flywire for both top and bottom of mash?
I definately have the ability to run bigger elements, will certainly make things quicker. But the other the side element is also a good idea. Can use it in multiple vessels if im doing 2 batches at once.

30L sounds like the biggest batch id do, so that sounds perfect.

Any sources for the 50l pots? Anyone buy one recently?

Where do we get the over the side elements?

Thanks again


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## MastersBrewery (23/4/14)

You say 30L is enough now  . Just wait a year or 2 and you'll be screaming to knock out doubles
OTS element
Lael is currently using a 100L Craft Brewer pot as his main and 350 x350 33L as malt pipe , though he has sourced some pots from china at 350(approx) x 600 for a larger malt pipe.
For a single batch Big W pot will be fine for malt pipe and these guys have 62L at a very good price some members have bought the bigger ones. That said the ratio width v's height sux but it does on most commercial pots too square and why Lael went with the 100LCB pot, taller than it is wide. Actually the 350 x 350 pot Lael is using would be a better option with the 62L, he got it cheap from a local Asian Grocery store from memory.(ED: this would knock out 28-42L)

Yep 2mm Perforated plate and ss fly wire top and bottom from you local SS fabricator(off cuts if you can).


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## lael (24/4/14)

Masters is spot on. I assume the linking to tobins where I got mine. I'm not sure if there are other seller s as well. The key with building a braumeister clone is to have a clear idea of the volumes and gravities that you want to be able to do. The reason I've done mine the way I have was one of my reasons for getting into brewing was to be able to brew DT, which is a 1.070 beer from memory. People mentioned that the braumeister has trouble with high gravity beers ( in fact there is a whole thread on it here on AHB) and I wanted to be able to do them... Hence the spreadsheet masters linked to. I've got a new spreadsheet with what I think are 'ideal' measurements for a Brau and itinimum and maximum capacities vs gravity. 

The other reason I got the 100L Craftbrewer pot is it's geometry. Because its tall and has a small diameter you can do a small batch or a large batch in it easily. You just have to have a larger malt pipe for a larger grain bill.

I'll post the spreadsheet when I get home in a week.


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## jonnir (24/4/14)

Hey neo, don't you have an recirc system already? Sorry if I've gotten you mistaken for someone else.

What's the difference between brau clone and say recirc biab systems? Similar to qldkev 1v system?

So many different styles lol


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## neo__04 (24/4/14)

thanks for the info.

I'll have to make some decisions.

Yeah Jonnir, that was the last thing i worked on about 8 or so months ago before i stopped brewing for a while.

Building a shed, will have plently of space to brew, so was just looking at maybe redoing my gear and getting a really good setup.

But the more i read the more i cant decide what i want. lol

I had decided on the braumeister clone, due to being 1v and seeming resonably quick and easy.

Whats the benefit of going 3v over something like the braumeister clone?\

Decisions decisions.


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## real_beer (24/4/14)

Neo__04 said:


> But the more i read the more i cant decide what i want. lol
> 
> I had decided on the braumeister clone, due to being 1v and seeming resonably quick and easy.
> 
> ...


Neo_04,

I'd hitch your wagon to a few brewers in your area and watch them & help them brew a few batches on each of the different systems. One thing I can tell you is that either way your going to be spending serious dosh on whichever system you decide to build, and if it's the wrong one you'll be selling it for half the price it costs you to build it. As for the quick and easy option I'm afraid that's a bit of a myth, in the end you'll probably end up with a terrific system you love and that works great, but they'll be lots of challenges to overcome on the journey. I hope this doesn't put you off, I just want you to realise they take longer to finish than you'd ever imagine & the time and effort you invest along the way can make a store bought option look cheap by the time you finish.


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## neo__04 (24/4/14)

yeah im hearing you. I love the build process which also helps. So i dont mind going through all this.

Doesn't seem to be many all grain brewers in the area. Might have to go for a drive one weekend a brew day is on.

Looking forward to getting setup. Is there some reading i can do in regards to 1v vs 2v vs 3v systems?


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## MastersBrewery (24/4/14)

real_beer has it right. I currently 3v and honestly as much as I love brew day my system has me going all day. I have a 3yo brew assistant, and once I light the burner for the boil he's outa there, just way to risky. I decided to move to a brau clone ages ago, but I'm the king of procrastination, and dough is bloody tight, so it's been very slow. The 3v will be out the door soon, it's a fine rig bloody good efficiency. Just comes down to some simple things, time to brew, how hands on you have to/ want to be on, space, and flexibility. My 3v if I chose could so a 15L batch, not going to happen with a brau clone.

sorry the slow typing, but definitely join a few locals for a brew see what you think, the day I spent at Lael's was epic and even convinced swmbo to build a clone


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## real_beer (24/4/14)

Neo__04 said:


> yeah im hearing you. I love the build process which also helps. So i dont mind going through all this.
> 
> Doesn't seem to be many all grain brewers in the area. Might have to go for a drive one weekend a brew day is on.
> 
> Looking forward to getting setup. Is there some reading i can do in regards to 1v vs 2v vs 3v systems?


I'd start watching as many YouTube videos as you can. Here's a three part series on the Brew Magic 3 vessel system, it's very high end but after you watch these have a look at how all the DIY's approach the subject using both gas, electric, or both. Then I do the same with all the one vessel systems & you'll probably find yourself gravitating to one or the other system by the time you've watched a few. The worst outcome is your going to decide you want to build both types, don't laugh because your partner wont be when the bank balance keeps dwindling away endlessly :lol: . By the time I post this you'll also probably already have had offers from members requiring a lackey to clean the brew pots & stuff at their next brew day so have some Weetbix & a Berocca for breakfast if you go along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRyd5Q4nQlo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdPS44p6oO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLMLqKPAIiQ

Cheers


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## real_beer (24/4/14)

I think you'll get some invites when members in your area read your post & also see the Brew Shed and Bar you've started to build. And you'd better buy a "Time Gentlemen Please Bell" to ring when it opens otherwise you'll never get the free-loading bastards out every night.


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## angus_grant (24/4/14)

One thing no-one has mentioned between brau-clones (I've built one) and 3V is the max potential gravity of brau-clones. For standard build of 50L pot and 19L malt pipe you max out a bit over 6kgs grain so no high gravity beers unless you're adding sugars. 

I'm thinking about getting a larger malt pipe built so I can do some big Belgians, wee heavies, IIPAs, etc etc. 

And the other bonus with 3V systems is that you can run multiple batches. So mash in and then shift wort to boil kettle. Clean out mash tun and mash in again. So for not too much more time than single batch you could knock out 2 batches. 

I'm constrained to single vessel due to living in a unit. But once in a house I can see at some point having both systems. Brau-clone for mid-week brews and bust out the 3V to knock out 2 or 3 batches every 2 months or so.


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## lael (24/4/14)

Angus - I've thought about this too. I figure if I needed an epic brew day I can buy a large pot with a burner (all you need for the boil) and use the Brau as a mashing machine. 

The limitation of gravities is all in the design. I've created quadruppels on my Brau... 28L from 9kg (sg of 1.080) grain in the 35cm malt pipe. Its all in getting the ratios right before you start the actual build.


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## angus_grant (24/4/14)

Yeh, I have thought about a 2V system with the brau doing the mashing, then transfer to gas-powered kettle. You just need a little bit of control on the boil vigour. 

I've just used a cheap big w pot as my malt pipe but thinking about building bigger malt pipe for bigger beers. Maybe upside down big w pot clamped together or full custom pro build. 

So like you say, think about beers that you make the most often and design your system to produce those beers.


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## peterl1981 (24/4/14)

real_beer said:


> I think you'll get some invites when members in your area read your post & also see the Brew Shed and Bar you've started to build. And you'd better buy a "Time Gentlemen Please Bell" to ring when it opens otherwise you'll never get the free-loading bastards out every night.


 he live's in warrnambool, not many brewers down there just carlton draught drinkers....


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## real_beer (24/4/14)

With Victoria being such a tiny little State I thought he'd only be an hour's drive from someone who brews, in another six months it'll probably be on the outskirts of Melbourne the way its devouring the countryside. I must say the pics of Warrnambool look great on Google. Isn't Carlton Draught the one the ad says is made from real beer?


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## peterl1981 (24/4/14)

real_beer said:


> With Victoria being such a tiny little State I thought he'd only be an hour's drive from someone who brews, in another six months it'll probably be on the outskirts of Melbourne the way its devouring the countryside. I must say the pics of Warrnambool look great on Google. Isn't Carlton Draught the one the ad says is made from real beer?


yeah its a great spot down there, only the best come from down that way...


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## neo__04 (24/4/14)

heheh, yeah no one around here seems to do AG. Strange really. No home brew shops except for some bits and pieces from barbecues galore.

The idea of the braumeister clone sounds great, 1v, good results and with some automation, a quicker brew day.

I've got the space for a 3v, plenty of decent power available, 3kw + units no worries. Just cant decide on what to build lol.

Might keep doing my research...

Ballarat and geelong are only a couple of hours away. Ballarat is the closest.


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## angus_grant (24/4/14)

Alright, so my off the cuff glib answer is grab a 50L pot and do BIAB. Cheap entry price, easy to understand, and simples. 
Bang some batches through it and produce some beer. 
Work out what styles you like and what gravity, grist amounts, etc, etc. 
you've not outlaid much cash or time in a system that doesn't suit your brewing style. 
Once you've done batches and styles, you will then arrive at an area where you have a basic level of grain volume, wanted gravity, etc

1V sounds simple but there is a lot of planning and calculating in the controlling system and volume calculations.
3V is just as complicated and (kind of) 3 * times the cost so make sure you are building the right system.


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## neo__04 (25/4/14)

We'll I've done a bit of all grain and advanced the hear in the process. Gone from stovetop for $30 to a 40l pot with esky mash tun, to single 50l keg recirc biab. I liked the idea of the 1v keg but didn't build it good enough with false bottoms, plumbing wasn't 100%, just a few little things that needed work. So I figuire new brewery, new build.


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## neo__04 (27/4/14)

Any recommendations on the ideal pot sizes. Max double batches.

Can you use a certain size main pot, then different malt pipes for single or double batches?

If so... What are the ideal sizes. I need to buy some pots!


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## lael (27/4/14)

Neo__04 said:


> Any recommendations on the ideal pot sizes. Max double batches.
> 
> Can you use a certain size main pot, then different malt pipes for single or double batches?
> 
> If so... What are the ideal sizes. I need to buy some pots!


What gravities do you want to be able to do? And what volumes at those gravities. Essentially higher gravity = more grain = bigger volume malt pipe. Grain in kg * 2.7 = volume of pot you need. Or x 2.8 to give a little more fluidisation in the malt pipe. But the bigger the malt pipe the more volume, which means you get have to have more water (bigger match size) to allow the water to overflow. Hence why i made the spreadsheet. 

Then... You have to evaluate what size pots you can realistically buy. 

For a lot of people a big w pot allows 19L or a little less after you take away above and below the plates. divided by 2.8 = about 5.5 to 6kg grains. Do you know what outer pot size you can get / want? 

The ideals I've run figures for are larger. I'll run some in a week or so when things are quieter. in the mean time q


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## lael (27/4/14)

Neo__04 said:


> Any recommendations on the ideal pot sizes. Max double batches.
> 
> Can you use a certain size main pot, then different malt pipes for single or double batches?
> 
> If so... What are the ideal sizes. I need to buy some pots!


What gravities do you want to be able to do? And what volumes at those gravities. Essentially higher gravity = more grain = bigger volume malt pipe. Grain in kg * 2.7 = volume of pot you need. Or x 2.8 to give a little more fluidisation in the malt pipe. But the bigger the malt pipe the more volume, which means you get have to have more water (bigger match size) to allow the water to overflow. Hence why i made the spreadsheet. 

Then... You have to evaluate what size pots you can realistically buy. 

For a lot of people a big w pot allows 19L or a little less after you take away above and below the plates. divided by 2.8 = about 5.5 to 6kg grains. Do you know what outer pot size you can get / want? 

The ideals I've run figures for are larger. I'll run some in a week or so when things are quieter. in the mean time take a look at the spreadsheet. 

Are you happy to order pots from aliexpress? Any size diameter you like? 

Yes you can use two different height malt pipes, it can just be hard to get the pots the same diameter so the same filter plates fit.


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## lael (27/4/14)

Sorry, phone...


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## neo__04 (27/4/14)

Most beers i would do would be approx 1050. It would be nice to be able to do up to double batches of 1050, but also run single batches for new brews, experiments etc.

Im flexible with the outer pot size, and where to buy from.

My ideal solution would be to be able to do double batches and single batches in the same vessel.


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## neo__04 (28/4/14)

got my skin fittings ordered, 3k element, power supply, ssr, temp probe. Already got the klaxin pump.

Need to get my pot sizes sorted, filters, wire up the controller when it comes and get plumbing!

Cant wait


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## Kleiny (4/5/14)

Welcome around my place when i brew next Neo. There are a couple of all grain brewers around we just need to organise a drink at some stage.


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## neo__04 (4/5/14)

Thanks for that, sounds good, your the only other i know of in the area. A catchup is definately needed.


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## lael (4/5/14)

ok - so this will be a starting point for you and hopefully you can play with the spreadsheet to work out what you want...

I've ignored what you want. Yep. Rude.

Here's why: the volumes outlined in the spreadsheet are awesome. They provide about the most flexibility that you could ask for. The limitations in a brau style system lie in getting the malt pipe fluidised with various amounts of grain, and the limitations of having a set malt pipe size (ie - you have to fluidise the pipe, but the larger the pipe, the more fluid which means you need more water, which means smaller batch sizes become problematic. Inversely you have a smaller malt pipe size to target smaller batches at lower OG's which means you have issues getting more malt in there and you face problems when trying to do a high gravity beer because you can't get enough malt in there).

So which is the lesser of two evils? the one which affords the best flexibility. The Germans wanted set sizes, but weren't flexible in their design limitations - which means high gravity beers are hard to do in a braumeister. In my mind - create a system that allows both with least fuss. In a brau - that means extra capacity, but you can't really do a small (19L) batch size (need more water to fluidise larger malt pipe).

But... would you rather be able to make a high gravity beer... or waste a few litres of wort every time you brew (or keep it for starters etc or just make more beer... ). In my case - I'm happy to have a minimum batch size of appx 30L for a 1040 or 1050 beer, but be able to make a wort up to 1090 (which means imperial stouts etc up to 1100 or so as they all use sugar above that... well... there is one I know of that doesn't). The brau is limited to... (brau owners feel free to correct here... but check the spreadsheet - you might learn what you can do in your brau [theoretically - not tested! ... but the models have worked so far] ) 36L of 1070 beer with the 50L malt pipe and a 25L 1055 beer or so in the short malt pipe in a 50L braumeister.

So in the spreadsheet I've assumed that you agree with me and think that the lesser of two evils is spending a little extra up front (bigger pots) to have a system that will be easy to upgrade to larger batch sizes and be able to have the flexibility of doing high gravity when you want to (drink a few Belgians and you will want to...).

Caveats - there is no pot that I am aware of that is the outer pot size I've listed - but the Craftbrewer 100L is 46x60... and is what I would get - you can dilute any ridiculous size lower OG batches (>90L) in the fermenter. I'm also not sure about finding two pots that will make you a small / large malt pipe. The milk pots I've found have the big one - shipping adds up, but they will add nested pots for good prices (about 200 total for a 35x60 and a 30x60cm pot which makes a nice fermenter). Or you can do what I did and buy two straight wall pots and then cut the base off one and slits up the sides and force them together with gentle persuasion which I've found works well... but it would be neater and slightly less fiddling (but more storage) to have two pots - one for each malt pipe size.

ok - let me know if you have any questions... 

View attachment Ideal Braumiser Volumes_latest.xls


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