# Single Malt Wash



## drsmurto (27/11/08)

Mate has a setup that magically turns low alc solutions into higher alc solutions.   

We have talked about doing a single malt whiskey

So, plan is to make a 10-12% 'beer' using JW trad. Mash at 66. No mash out. 15 min boil to get the hot break and kill any nasties and then chill straight to the fermenter. Pitch a big healthy yeast.

Question is - what yeast to use? 

Was thinking either Nottingham or US-05 as i dont have any liquid yeasts that are designed for big beers. 

Unless someone in Adelaide is willing to give me a sample of one of the belgians or even 1728 (scottish ale)?


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## newguy (27/11/08)

Don't skip the mashout as it will get help to get more sugar out of the grain (that's the goal, isn't it?). Use a neutral yeast like US-05 or Wyeast 1056. If you can't get either, use Nottingham if it's handy but keep the temperature low (16-18ish) to minimise esters and higher alcohol formation.

Don't use a Belgian strain. They produce way too many higher alcohols (fusels) and phenols. What you're planning will only concentrate them, and that won't be pleasant. Same goes for the Scottish strain as it produces way too much diacetyl. I can't imagine how concentrated diacetyl would taste.

I take it you know the procedure? Throw away the "head" and "tail" and only keep what comes during the middle - between what first comes out (the head) and the sputtering end (the tail). From what I've read, the head & tail contains a lot of nasty stuff that you really don't want to ingest.

Good luck. :super:


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## geoffd (27/11/08)

I know very little on the subject but have a few questions.
If you're distilling, why mash at 66? I would think you should mash at 60 to make it as fermentable as possible.
I would still do a 1 hour boil to remove DMS.
Do you know how much of the beer to add back to flavour the spirit & does it need to be filtered before you distill? (i'm thinking you might have yeast autolysis in the mash after the distill)


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## KingPython (27/11/08)

Can't you use a turbo yeast and get it fermented within 2 days? You could also order some peat or distilling? malt from craftbrewer as well.


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## bakkerman (27/11/08)

Would not recommend turbo yeasts, I find they require carbon filtering after "condensing".

Looking at craftbrewer i do see they have an Eau de vie yeast. I would like to try that once to see how that pans out.


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## drsmurto (27/11/08)

Thanks for the responses, particularly reminding me of some of the 'added bonuses' that come with scottish and belgian yeasts. 

Will make sure i have plenty of US-05, prob easiest to collect a yeast cake of it and wash it a few times.....

As for the distillation part, i figure the small amount of chemistry knowledge i possess should see me thru that part of the process  

As for mash temp - would have thought that making a normal beer by mashing in the normal range would carry thru more of the malt character to the final product. 

Mash out - wont be able to fit the extra volume of water in. I can do a 65/72 combo with boiling water to get the extra temp out and sparge with slightly hotter water than normal (i batch sparge)

DMS isnt an issue when you distil the final product!

Add back to flavour it? Was planning on maybe adding some oak to it after but not worry about any essences.


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## Bizier (27/11/08)

Maybe charred oak Doc?


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## Barge (27/11/08)

I'd skip the JW and go with TF Golden Promise. That'd have to make a good scotch!


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## drsmurto (27/11/08)

Now i am really stuck, the Scottish heritage in me wants me to use a Scottish grain but the same heritage wants me to take the cheaper malt option....  

Charred oak..... mmmmm. 

Going to keep the first one simple and then look at adding peated malt etc later down the track.


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## KingPython (27/11/08)

This reminds me of the Simpson's episode where Homer is making bath tub '12 year Old Scotch' and 'Cognac' in his basement :lol:


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## bigholty (27/11/08)

The ol' magic condenser eh? I know Voosher used to speak of some concoctions he'd make of a strength unatainable by mere yeast alone......
There is a website (I'll PM you) that has HEAPS of info. It has a section specifically on what yeasts people use to make various washes, so they can extract the 'essential oils' from their malted barley...... h34r:


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## Quintrex (27/11/08)

bigh said:


> The ol' magic condenser eh? I know Voosher used to speak of some concoctions he'd make of a strength unatainable by mere yeast alone......
> There is a website (I'll PM you) that has HEAPS of info. It has a section specifically on what yeasts people use to make various washes, so they can extract the 'essential oils' from their malted barley...... h34r:



I'd thoroughly recommend at least a 1 hour boil as it is necessary to break down the protein as this can cause foaming in the distillation which will come over with the distillate if your not careful, um or so i've heard!  

I'd probably mash low and use a champagne yeast or equivalent, the malt character from unfermentables won't be volatile (i don't think), so go as fermentable as possible.

Q


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## Barge (27/11/08)

King Python said:


> This reminds me of the Simpson's episode where Homer is making bath tub '12 year Old Scotch' and 'Cognac' in his basement :lol:



kaboom...'oh, excuse me dear. must've been that bean I had for dinner'


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## geoffd (28/11/08)

I thought by distilling, you would end up with pure ethanol (essentially vodka) after the first 50ml or so of Methanol (DO NOT DRINK) & a portion of the wash is added back to flavour & diluted with water to get the desired ABV. Hence my reasoning that you would want to filter the yeast out before the distillation, otherwise the yeast would be cooked in the the wash & ruin the flavour so you couldnt use it to flavour the ethanol. Methanol comes off at 60 degrees as far as I know, while ethanol's flash point is 80 degrees, that's why the methanol comes out first. I agree with the low mash idea, high mash only creates more body, not more flavour. I think the flavour is comming from the husk not the starch.


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## newguy (28/11/08)

From my high school distillation portion of grade 11 chemistry (which was a long time ago), I thought that methanol boils at 82C while ethanol boils at 84C?


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## reviled (28/11/08)

You can buy malt whiskey kits, peated malt is a must!! Dont know about the dextrose required with this kit tho? 

http://www.haurakihomebrew.co.nz/product_i...roducts_id=1105


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## drsmurto (28/11/08)

Methanol boils at 64.7C, ethanol at 78.3C. FWIW - Flash point is VERY different to boiling point

Would have thought by using a good yeast (ie. not turbo) the amount of methanol produced is minimal but standard practice in distillation of anything is to throw away the first liquid that comes off. Of course, i am used to distillation in a lab where i have a thermometer to monitor the temp of the distillate not to mention vigreux columns of various lengths.

I have it on good authority that some/most whiskey manufacturers dont do any boil as its being distilled straight away.

Having crunched the numbers further it does seem silly not to do a normal length boil, if only to get more of the sugars from the malt.

Had a few PMs from people for the homedistillers forum. Plenty of info there. 

FJ - very interested in the idea of adding some of the fermented 'beer' back after distilling. Plan was the ferment, crash chill and hit with gelatine. Dont fancy the idea of distilling yeast cake!


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## Frank (28/11/08)

When were you planning this brew? I have 50L of the popular DrS Golden Ale coming off primary tomorrow morning. Fermented with US-05. You can have the whole cake if your interested, it is heading for the compost otherwise.


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## drsmurto (28/11/08)

Boston said:


> When were you planning this brew? I have 50L of the popular DrS Golden Ale coming off primary tomorrow morning. Fermented with US-05. You can have the whole cake if your interested, it is heading for the compost otherwise.



Awesome work Boston, 2 yeast cakes in a month! Hoping to brew this in the next week or 2. Chatting to mate with the chemistry set tomorrow night over a few brews.

Dont suppose you want a 1469 yeast cake in return?


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## reviled (28/11/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Dont suppose you want a 1469 yeast cake in return?




How can you say no to that :icon_drool2:


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## geoffd (28/11/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Methanol boils at 64.7C, ethanol at 78.3C. FWIW - Flash point is VERY different to boiling point
> Having crunched the numbers further it does seem silly not to do a normal length boil, if only to get more of the sugars from the malt.
> FJ - very interested in the idea of adding some of the fermented 'beer' back after distilling. Plan was the ferment, crash chill and hit with gelatine. Dont fancy the idea of distilling yeast cake!



Point taken with the flash, not sure how a longer boil will yield more sugar, do you mean a longer mash. If you arent using the wash as flavouring then i don't see the need to remove the yeast at all. Although the resultant distillated clear spitit would be known as poitin (phonetically potcheen).
A common misunderstanding is that poitin is made from potatoes in Ireland, it is actually made from barley & traditionally was around 70-90% abv ie not very watered down. Essentially irish & scotch whisk(e)y is poitin flavoured with fermented barley wort. Both poitin & whiskey are served with optional room temperature water, anything else, including ice, is an absolute bastardisation, & as for cola; well thats for shit whisky like tomato sauce is for shit food.
Slainte


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## Frank (28/11/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Awesome work Boston, 2 yeast cakes in a month! Hoping to brew this in the next week or 2. Chatting to mate with the chemistry set tomorrow night over a few brews.
> Dont suppose you want a 1469 yeast cake in return?


I'll take some 1469, haven't used it before, but keen to give it a try.
If you get your recipe sorted for pitching this weekend, you can borrow my 60L fermenter and drop the wort on top of the undisturbed cake, and I can get the fermenter back on the 13th. Otherwise I will need to transfer it to another container. 
I am guessing you will need a fair volume for your mate to do his reduction method with.


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## newguy (28/11/08)

Father Jack said:


> Point taken with the flash, not sure how a longer boil will yield more sugar, do you mean a longer mash.



Longer boil means more water evaporation, which means a more concentrated wort = higher alcohol content.


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## geoffd (28/11/08)

higher density wort, will make it harder for the yeast to work & may result in slightly less alcohol.
I assume the boil we are talking about is pre fermentation, not the alcohol boil in distillation.
We might just have our wires crossed here?!


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## recharge (28/11/08)

Don't know if this bit of info is any value to what you want to achieve but whilst touring the Jack Daniels distillery i discovered that they ferment with all the grains still in the mix. Not sure about the boil off though.

Rich


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## drsmurto (28/11/08)

what newguy said - Longer boil means higher evap rate which means i can add more sparge water and hence extract more sugars. Means i can use less grain for the same abv (prob target 10%). For 25L i am looking at 13.5kg of malt!

Its 1 of the reasons i do a 90 min boil as a standard.

As for poitin, met a bloke from Belfast when living in Rennes (France) and he had a few bottles of a clear spirit he called poitin. Had a sip and decided it would be better utilised for cleaning car engines! 

Agree, good whiskey needs only a few drops of water and some good company.

boston - wont be brewing the wash this weekend, brewing a deuchars IPA and a ruddles county this arvo and tomorrow. Maybe next weekend. So if you could do the same as you did last time and put the yeast cake ina bottle that would be greatly appreciated. I will wash the 1469 yeast cake a few more times and have it ready for you whenever you drop around next.


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## geoffd (28/11/08)

I see says the blind man, brewery capacity limitations
keep on sparging!


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## Swinging Beef (28/11/08)

DrSmurto said:


> We have talked about doing a single malt whiskey


Dont forget to age it for 10 or 20 years to smooth it out. :icon_cheers:


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## MHB (28/11/08)

No brew is added back into the distillate in Scotch making, the only time that I know of where brew is added to distillate is in port making.

The characteristic flavours of the grain/grapes/fruit/herbs/spices and yeast carry over during distillation.
Double distillation is standard, (triple for Irish whiskey) in a pot still (not a reflux) gives good results, just dont be a tight ass and push the temperature up too high or you start getting lots of fusels.

I do have a sample of Malt Whiskey, Bourbon and Rum Yeast (dry) in the fridge.
They are there because I am developing kits for the above.

Be happy to give out some free samples, in exchange for good feedback.

PM Me if you want some

I knew the certificate in distilling Im studying for would come in handy didnt expect it to be on AHB wonder how long this thread will last.
MHB


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## drsmurto (28/11/08)

How important is the yeast for this MHB?


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## MHB (28/11/08)

Every part of the process affects the outcome (even to the point where distilleries have been known to reproduce dints in pot stills when they are being replaced).

So yes I would say as important as your choice of malt, mash regime and temperatures.

Start with a mash balanced between Peated and any plain base malt (to taste), as I drink Islay malts that would be 100% Peated for me (Lagavulin 16 y.o. sitting on the desk).
Crush and Mash for high efficiency and attenuation (cool long mash) boil for a couple of minutes to sterilise (no hops).
If the brew is a bit turbid its not a problem, ferment to dryness and fine the bejesus out of the brew before proceeding.

Only ever distil yeast free crystal clear wash and again DONT be greedy, apart from methanol all the bad stuff comes out last.

Serve with a large dose of patience and some nice French oak chips

MHB


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## drsmurto (28/11/08)

Thanks for that MHB.

i drink most (good) single malts - first attempt to see if its worth all the extra effort will be straight ale malt, after that will add in peated malt.

Yep, oaked it will be. Had contemplated buying a new barrel for it to age/oak in but will go some oak chips.


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## reviled (28/11/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Thanks for that MHB.
> 
> i drink most (good) single malts - first attempt to see if its worth all the extra effort will be straight ale malt, after that will add in peated malt.
> 
> Yep, oaked it will be. Had contemplated buying a new barrel for it to age/oak in but will go some oak chips.




Noooo, buy the barrel, then you can use it for beers later :icon_cheers:


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## muckanic (28/11/08)

Bear in mind that the ester content will increase sharply after about 7% ABV. Some of these add flavour, some are a PITA. Ethyl acetate, for example, boils just below EtOH and cannot be separated in a pot still. Even after a heads cut, enough will bleed into the hearts to cause that whiskey burn. Another tip is that lipids (from both the malt and the yeast) can be responsible for a lot of the flavour. So ferment the cold break at the very least. Some distillers ferment on the grain (tolerating DMS in the ferment), strain, sparge and then distill, with no racking. It all depends whether you want a light or heavy product, although I believe the scotch process is closer to unhopped beer than most.


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## reviled (11/12/08)

Bump...

So did you do this in the end? Or still planning?


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## drsmurto (11/12/08)

Its getting close - Boston dropped off the US05 yeast cake so i have enough for a 25L batch of 10-12%.

Been thinking about it and am tempted to keep the mash after sparging off and add some crystal/choc and see if i can sparge enough for ~ 15L of a mild. basically a partigyle on the fly. Will see what gravity readings i get during the process to see if its worth it.

Might even get to it next week with an early afternoon but i will be crushing the grain over the course of a few days. 13.5 kg thru a marga powered by hand....


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## Spartan 117 (11/12/08)

King Python said:


> This reminds me of the Simpson's episode where Homer is making bath tub '12 year Old Scotch' and 'Cognac' in his basement :lol:



Your out there somewhere beer barron and ill find you 

(homer in the distance) No you wont

Yes i will 

Wont.....


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## hoppinmad (27/12/12)

Dragging up a very old thread I know... but I am considering making a 40 litre wash using some old JW Ale and Pilsner in my brewery. How did your whiskey making attempt go Dr Smurto? Did you get something resembling single malt in the end? Any tips on how the process could be improved?


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## drsmurto (28/12/12)

Didn't turn out.

I did the mash, boil and ferment and left it condition for a month or so. Tasted quite nice at this stage for ~10% unhopped barleywine. I went 50/50 peated/ale.

Pot still is where it went to shit. Turns out the one i was offered was very small, ~5L and given beers ability to froth like crazy it was a disaster. Frothed so much that distillation was a no go, froth came across well before any distillate. 

If i do attempt it again i would source the still first to make sure it was big enough for the job. Fine the resulting wash for yeast, protein and polyphenol to reduce frothing. Age the resulting spirit in a barrel.


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## halabut (29/12/12)

Over the ditch, where all this is quite legal, homebrew stores sell anti-foaming agents to avoid this problem. You'll probably be able to find it at an commercial catering supply store in Aus but you'll probably have to get a lot more than you need.


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## kezza (29/12/12)

use a half teaspoon of butter or a drizzle of oil to stop the foaming


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