# Wheat Malt For Lagers



## Nick JD (27/1/10)

Hey Folks - I've got a lot of wheat malt and s23 lager yeast and was thinking about making a 100% wheat lager. Is this doable? I've made a few good 100% wheat weizens, but never used a lager yeast.

Are there any commercial examples or styles that I can lean on? Or is this just not done?

:icon_cheers:


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## pcmfisher (28/1/10)

Can you make a beer out of just wheat malt?


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## A3k (28/1/10)

pcmfisher said:


> Can you make a beer out of just wheat malt?



Yeah you can, i've never done it though. Need to make sure you've got a good false bottom though.


I've never seen a lager recipe with much more than just a little wheat malt in it. But i reckon you should give it a go and see how it goes. It'd probably be pretty refreshing.


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## Swinging Beef (28/1/10)

you can do anything you want.
I dont think it will taste nice, tho.

Redback released a lager version of their classic wheat beer and it was bloody awful.


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## Weizguy (28/1/10)

You might be able to a dark wheat lager, that may or may not taste like a Schwarz or Munich Dunkel.

To be 100% wheat, you would have to get some Dark or roast or choc wheat.

Is that more appealing than a boring old pale wheat lager (like the disgusting Redback Kristall?

Weizguy out


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## pcmfisher (28/1/10)

What I meant was, I was under the impression that wheat lacks the enzymes need for proper conversion of sugars, so you need at least some 20%? barley malt for it to work properly.

Is this right?


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## Nick JD (28/1/10)

pcmfisher said:


> Is this right?



You're correct - but there's wheat, and there's malted wheat. I'm talking about malted wheat so it's got the enzymes. 

It's BIAB, so no stuck runs or sparges - although that said, my 100% wheats have a lower efficiency than 100% barley.

So a wheat lager tastes crap, eh? Hmmmm, I'll try it once and report back. It'll only be 12 liters so if it's woeful I'll decant it into Corona bottles, cap them have a BBQ. No one will notice.


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## Dave86 (28/1/10)

I think someone here accidentally made a 100% wheat pils a couple of years back, i just can't remember who though...


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## A3k (28/1/10)

Nick JD said:


> So a wheat lager tastes crap, eh? Hmmmm, I'll try it once and report back.



I'm still curious how it turns out. Just cos redback may make a crap wheat lager, doesn't mean it'll definitely be bad.


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## Nick JD (28/1/10)

I'm just about to start grinding the wheat malt, so I'll take some pictures. I won't be able to take some tastes though. That would be nice!


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## Nick JD (28/1/10)

Grind 1kg of Wheat Malt up with the coffee grinder. 







Finished 1kg. 






Took 3 minutes. Six more minutes to go for 3kg. 

3kg rearing to go in the big pot @ 64 for an hour.






Nighty-night wheaties.


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## Nick JD (28/1/10)

Hop time. Out with The Freezing Bag 'O Hops. We choose 10g of Southern Cross for 60 minutes and 10g of D Saaz for 15.











(I have to remember to write their details on after I cut off the tag so I know which is which. Have had a few stressful unsure sniffing tests in the past when cutting the tops off all the bags in the order and then wondering which is which...)

And wrap them up in their little voile bags.


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## Nick JD (28/1/10)

Time for a dark one.


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## Zwickel (28/1/10)

pcmfisher said:


> What I meant was, I was under the impression that wheat lacks the enzymes need for proper conversion of sugars, so you need at least some 20%? barley malt for it to work properly.
> 
> Is this right?



thats the point.

Wheat malt is poor on enzymes, so recommendation for doing a proper Weizen is, using at least 30% Barley malt.

Nevertheless, if youre going to use 100% wheat malt, Id recommend you to do an extended mash until iodine test shows negative result.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD (28/1/10)

This stuff (Barrett Burston IIRC) does okay without barley.

Mash finished at about 62C, which is a 2C drop. More than usual but it'll do.






Trying to take a photo of a hydrometer in all that steam is nearly impossible. It's a touch over 1.040 (say 1.041) at 63C. 






So that's 1.059 at room temperature. Way too high, so I added 2L of boiling water to bring it up to about 16L and about 1.054. Might have to do some fermenter dilution too because the boil will bring it over 1.060. 

Dunno, it's an experiment!

As I was typing this I had to run for the stove ... southern cross hops in. 






Mmmmmm, smells amazing.


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## dr K (28/1/10)

of course you can make alcohol from 100% wheat, and you make it cheaper than you can from either barley or sugar. look what the ethanol producers in Australia use..wheat (and some enzymes), its not whether it will work (it does) but what sort of wort you produce and how that wort will affect your final beer.
you can make a perfectly acceptable ale from a beer with 50% wheat malt and a standard ale yeast, its called American Wheat, the classic example is Widmer and it may well be that its yeast first came from an Alt beer, Zum Uerige if the sherlocks are correct. Now given that Alt, like Kolsch is a "Hybrid Beer" in that the yeast or the fermentation process is neither Ale nor Lager its a small step to make a wheat based beer using lager yeast but experience tells us that for a decent beer a good proportion of barley malt is required..
Sadly, the Hybrid Beer class has been removed from the Australian guidelines, Alt has been moved to British Bitters and Kolsch I think to Belgian Pale Ales.

K


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## Nick JD (28/1/10)

dr K said:


> ...but experience tells us that for a decent beer a good proportion of barley malt is required.



I'm gonna have to call a big, fat, loud _bullshit_ on that one Professor K. I've made plenty of great 100% wheats. Never used a lager yeast though.

How many 100% wheats have you tasted? Do we have another expert in our midst who is an expert in _imagination beers_? The amount of people on this forum who profess to all that something they have never brewed, fermented or even tasted won't work is astounding. People will tell you that you shouldn't do something they have never done themselves - well, everybody, Spaghetti Bolognase is DISGUSTING. No, I have never tried it, but it is - SO DON'T MAKE IT!

:blink: 

Dr. Nick.


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## yardy (28/1/10)

a little off topic maybe but i did make a 100% Rye Ale once, it was like drinking sump oil with a dash of sand :icon_vomit: :lol: , i didn't filter or gelatine etc which probably could've helped it no end, i really only brewed it test a manifold that i made, no stuck sparge so it wasn't a total loss, i agree with Nick, don't listen to the nay sayers.

cheers

Dave


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## dr K (28/1/10)

Nick
I am sure you have some fantastic "beers" from 100% wheat..as I noted


> of course you can make alcohol from 100% wheat


You are correct, I have not tasted a "beer" made with 100% wheat, but I have tasted many "beers" made with 100% extract, quite a few of these have actually had as their base sugars made by bees, rather than by Coopers, bottom line is that they are sugars which will form a lot of CO2, ethanol, and various by-products, most of which are by-products of the fermentation rather than the base sugars, be they mono, di or tri or any combination.
As to your rather strange culinary reference, I suggest you read Hazan, or any number of italian cooking guru's who will put you straight and introduce you to the concept of Ragu.
I look foward to tasting one of your 100% wheats in a comp.

K


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## manticle (28/1/10)

Nick JD said:


> I'm gonna have to call a big, fat, loud _bullshit_ on that one Professor K. I've made plenty of great 100% wheats. Never used a lager yeast though.
> 
> How many 100% wheats have you tasted? Do we have another expert in our midst who is an expert in _imagination beers_? The amount of people on this forum who profess to all that something they have never brewed, fermented or even tasted won't work is astounding. People will tell you that you shouldn't do something they have never done themselves - well, everybody, Spaghetti Bolognase is DISGUSTING. No, I have never tried it, but it is - SO DON'T MAKE IT!
> 
> ...




To be fair, you can have a grasp of principles and extrapolate - you don't have to have experienced every possible combination and permutation of ingredients to have a fair idea of the shortcomings of an idea.

That doesn't mean you'll be 100% correct or that no-one could ever prove you wrong or that people simply have different taste perceptions. 

I used to work as a chef so I have an idea on cooking principles and chemistry. I don't know everything nor every flavour combination but I can use my experience and knowledge to make a judgement if asked.

That said - give it a go. You always intended to anyway so I'm not sure why you're even asking.That isn't your style. If you've brewed successful 100% ale wheats before then reason stands that the simple exchange of lager yeasts and treatment won't make it fail.


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## yardy (28/1/10)

i'm fairly sure Ross made a 100% wheat


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## dent (29/1/10)

I made a 100% wheat ale back in the early days of AG brewing. Records say 5kg JW wheat malt, 65 degrees, 90 minutes. It was cloudy but it went down pretty nicely IIRC. The efficiency probably was fairly lousy but what the hell.


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## floppinab (29/1/10)

Nick JD said:


> Hey Folks - I've got a lot of wheat malt and s23 lager yeast and was thinking about making a 100% wheat lager. Is this doable?
> 
> :icon_cheers:



I know a few that don't like it but I don't mind a pint or two of Matt Donelans (sp?) St. Peters Blonde when I'm in an Inner West Sydney pub thats got it which is a good 50% (or more) wheat and he uses either 23 or 34/70, can't remember which one. I've done something similar myself in the past.

I'm sure yours'll be a very drinkable beer.


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## Nick JD (30/1/10)

Ticking away nicely.







Set to the temperature of "lager" on the windy temperature thing. 13C.


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## Nick JD (8/2/10)

Not very old, and with a bit of protein haze (another bottle that's "hot conditioning" for comparison is super clear) - but quite nice. Too fruity though for a lager. I think the initial few hours of fermentation were a little too warm. Maybe a wheat steam beer?! 






Another week of cold conditioning will help, but the fruitiness is probably here to stay - not that I really mind it.

It's very, very pale though. Makes those American beers look dark. The flash has made it look darker - we're talking 100% wheat 2 EBC or less. 

I will brew this again - next time at 10C the entire time making sure I chill to 10C before pitching. 

At the moment I have exactly the same recipe 'cept with 100% barley instead of wheat bubbling away. Will be nice to drink the two back to back.

:icon_cheers:


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