# Fermentability Of Rice



## Silo Ted (29/7/10)

How do you calculate the inclusion of long grain rice in a recipe when designing a beer with this adjunct? Is there a similar weight for weight equality between grain & gelatinised rice for all practical accounts and purposes? Considering doing a few micro mashes this weekend to determine how many gravity points rice brings to a beer, but if the data is already out there it will save me the time of doing so. Another consideration, whether valid or not, is the ratio of grain/rice in order for the enzymatic conversion to occur. In a pro-rata measurement, would a weight of rice in a 70/30 ratio perform similar to a ratio of 50/50, or does more grain equal greater conversion of the adjunct into usable, fermentable sugars?


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## Linz (29/7/10)

Promash shows Flaked rice has a potential gravity of 1.040(SG pppg). I use flaked grains from the 'hippy' isle at Coles or woolies as you can just throw them in the mash or grind them up with you grist where as whole grains (rice/wheat) need to be cooked first


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## Screwtop (29/7/10)

Silo Ted said:


> How do you calculate the inclusion of long grain rice in a recipe when designing a beer with this adjunct? Is there a similar weight for weight equality between grain & gelatinised rice for all practical accounts and purposes? Considering doing a few micro mashes this weekend to determine how many gravity points rice brings to a beer, but if the data is already out there it will save me the time of doing so. Another consideration, whether valid or not, is the ratio of grain/rice in order for the enzymatic conversion to occur. In a pro-rata measurement, would a weight of rice in a 70/30 ratio perform similar to a ratio of 50/50, or does more grain equal greater conversion of the adjunct into usable, fermentable sugars?




In Beersmith flaked rice is 1.032. No idea re their reference source. 

Qualifier: From experience, this works, I sub white rice, target gravity is spot on, make no adjustments to mash efficiency, white rice requires a cereal mash. When mashing corn and/or Rice I extend mash Sacch rest out to 120 min to ensure conversion. 

Palmer's How To Brew has a Table of Typical Malt Yields table listing PPG's for flaked rice. http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html

Screwy


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## Bribie G (29/7/10)

Thanks for the reference, Screwy, that's something I've been wondering about myself - especially the comparison between rice and sugaz as an adjunct in Aus lagers particularly. I've bookmarked it. I really should get back and read Palmer cover to cover. 120 minute mash is also an attractive idea. Also I wonder what the 'ideal' mash temperature is to convert rice to maltose - 64 degrees? 68 degrees etc?

Using the stockpots from my kits n partials days I find it really easy to make up rice porridge from ALDI $1.50 a kilo cheap rice. Off topic slightly but did you know BB Galaxy Pale Pilsener Malt has been discontinued, but Ross says it's going to be replaced shortly. I wouldn't mind betting that the replacement is going to be another high diastatic pale lager malt for the Asian breweries, maybe even more powerful than Galaxy. 
I can feel some rice lagers coming on


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## Fourstar (29/7/10)

BribieG said:


> Thanks for the reference, Screwy, that's something I've been wondering about myself - especially the comparison between rice and sugaz as an adjunct in Aus lagers particularly. I've bookmarked it. I really should get back and read Palmer cover to cover. 120 minute mash is also an attractive idea. Also I wonder what the 'ideal' mash temperature is to convert rice to maltose - 64 degrees? 68 degrees etc?



gelatinisation of corn or rice happens at mash temperatures so as soon as you hit gelatinisation, the enzymes can goto work.  

If you precook the product, even better.


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## Screwtop (29/7/10)

BribieG said:


> Thanks for the reference, Screwy, that's something I've been wondering about myself - especially the comparison between rice and sugaz as an adjunct in Aus lagers particularly. I've bookmarked it. I really should get back and read Palmer cover to cover. 120 minute mash is also an attractive idea. Also I wonder what the 'ideal' mash temperature is to convert rice to maltose - 64 degrees? 68 degrees etc?
> 
> Using the stockpots from my kits n partials days I find it really easy to make up rice porridge from ALDI $1.50 a kilo cheap rice. Off topic slightly but did you know BB Galaxy Pale Pilsener Malt has been discontinued, but Ross says it's going to be replaced shortly. I wouldn't mind betting that the replacement is going to be another high diastatic pale lager malt for the Asian breweries, maybe even more powerful than Galaxy.
> I can feel some rice lagers coming on




I follow Zwickels mash regime, because it works. For a recent brew I made his Corona Clone for a neighbour: Dare I say it tastes great  




> Mash in the pilsener malt at around 35C, take 12l of water
> meanwhile boil the Corn and Rice with ~6l of water for about 15min.
> add the boiling pulp into the mash, so youll achieve around 65 to 68C
> keep it at this temp for around 2 hours, yeah it will need that long time to convert all the starch.
> Stir well all the time. After 2 hours heat it up to 78C and mashout



I use 8L of water for the cereal mash to lift the mash temp to 66C this volume depends upon losses in your system.

Screwy


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## beerbrewer76543 (29/7/10)

What percentage of adjuncts would you use in such a beer? :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD (29/7/10)

Fourstar said:


> gelatinisation of corn or rice happens at mash temperatures so as soon as you hit gelatinisation, the enzymes can goto work.



So Fourstar, rice flour thrown directly into the mash will convert - if sufficient enzymes are there?


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## Fourstar (29/7/10)

L_Bomb said:


> What percentage of adjuncts would you use in such a beer? :icon_cheers:



1kg of rice is typical in a 5-6kg grist (any diastatic power), so around 20%. I usually buy Viet broken rice or 1kg bags of polenta from the lcoal asian grocer for around $2.50-3 bucks so its convenient to add that amount in one hit. I'm going to try an 40% red rice ale soon with a beta glucan rest. wish me luck!



Nick JD said:


> So Fourstar, rice flour thrown directly into the mash will convert - if sufficient enzymes are there?



One would assume so. I would avoid adding any flour to a typical HB mash though, thats just asking for trouble. Unless of course you like dealing with a gluemash (regardless of BIAB or not).


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## Pennywise (29/7/10)

Sort of still on topic I guess so here goes, SWMBO cooked up some nice little pies the other night with home made pastry. She had to use some rice in the little dish things that the pastry sits in so it didn't rise in the oven before adding the filling. Would this rice still be good to use in a mash? There's not a whole heap of it, maybe 3-400g, but figure if I can use it why not. SWMBO said it wouln't be any good for cooking and eating because it wouldn't absob moisture any more, would this rule out mashing with it too?


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## Bribie G (29/7/10)

Nick you mentioned rice flour on another thread. However the Mckenzies rice flour at the supermarket is quite exxie, do you know of a cheap source?


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## Fourstar (29/7/10)

Homebrewer79 said:


> Sort of still on topic I guess so here goes, SWMBO cooked up some nice little pies the other night with home made pastry. She had to use some rice in the little dish things that the pastry sits in so it didn't rise in the oven before adding the filling. Would this rice still be good to use in a mash? There's not a whole heap of it, maybe 3-400g, but figure if I can use it why not. SWMBO said it wouln't be any good for cooking and eating because it wouldn't absob moisture any more, would this rule out mashing with it too?



do you want toasted rice in your beer?! that is the real question.


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## Pennywise (29/7/10)

Fourstar said:


> do you want toasted rice in your beer?! that is the real question.




Mmmm, not something I thought about. The colour of the rice doesn't look any different though, it was only in the oven for a short while, it just feels a little different


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## Bribie G (29/7/10)

Screwy, Zwickle's method is spot on and it at least a century old: Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 "Brewing" article:

In America the common system of brewing is one of infusion mashing combined with bottom fermentation. The method of mashing, however, though on infusion lines, differs appreciably from the English process. A very low initial heat—about 100 F. —at which the mash remains for about an hour, is employed. After this the temperature is rapidly raised to 153-156 F. by running in the boiling "cooker mash," i.e. raw grain wort from the converter [rice/maize]. After a period the temperature is gradually increased to about 165 F. The very low initial heat, and the employment of relatively large quantities of readily transformable malt adjuncts, enable the American brewer to make use of a class of malt which would be considered quite unfit for brewing in an English brewery. The system of fermentation is very similar to the continental "lager" system, and the beer obtained bears some resemblance to the German product. To the English palate it is somewhat flavourless, but it is always retailed in exceedingly brilliant condition and at a proper temperature. There can be little doubt that every nation evolves a type of beer most suited to its climate and the temperament of the people, and in this respect the modern American beer is no exception. In regard to plant and mechanical arrangements generally, the modern American breweries may serve as an object-lesson to the European brewer, although there are certainly a number of breweries in the United Kingdom which need not fear comparison with the best American plants.


Edit: off topic but a hundred years ago American beer was described as 'somewhat flavourless' and I often wonder if those "wonderful" Pre-prohibition beers were actually all that shit hot, although they were well hopped by modern Bud standards I believe. Maybe a bit of rose tinted glasses going on there, ah the good old days.


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## Nick JD (29/7/10)

BribieG said:


> Nick you mentioned rice flour on another thread. However the Mckenzies rice flour at the supermarket is quite exxie, do you know of a cheap source?



My coffee grinder turns dried, uncooked rice into dust in about 10 seconds.

I will check the local Asian supermarket though - might be a bit more demand from the homebrew noodle fanatics out there. I'd use more rice if it was just like pouring some grainz in.


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## Silo Ted (29/7/10)

Finally downloaded the trial version of Beer Smith, and if I am using it correctly, it tells me that 2 kg of flaked rice in a 10 litre batch will give a 1040 OG. For two row US pale malt in the same batch is gives me 1045. Thats a close enough weight for weight comparison. That backs up Screwtop's experience of hitting targets. But are there enzymes in the flaked rice that would allow for conversion on its own? My limited understanding from reading up on the subject is that you must use malted grain as well, and rightly or wrongly thought this was due to the adjunct lacking in enzymatic activity on its own. If this is the case then wouldn't the ratio of grain to rice be important when planning for the optimum performance of the rice component's conversion into fermentables. This goes more into being for interest's sake than practical application, Im not about to make a beer with 70% rice. 

Veering away slightly, I saw a program about where in some asian rural areas they make a potent homemade liqor which is made just with rice, which is distilled a few times to make some sort of barely drinkable rocket fuel. How does the rice convert to usable fermentables in a case like that ? I recall that they let the cooked rice start to rot for a couple of days, so the mould or bacteria might play an important part in their process too. Could be the same principal as sourdough or old lombic yeasts.


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## jakub76 (29/7/10)

From a japanese sake making tutorial...

Koji is a kind of mold that has an enzyme to convert starch to sugar.

Koji is used for making Sake (Japanese rice wine), Miso (soy-bean paste), Shoyu (soy-sauce), etc.

As a mashing step is necessary to convert starch to sugar in beer brewing, the function of Koji is
indispensable to make sake. In the case of beer brewing, fermentation takes place after starch
conversion has finished. In making sake, on the other hand, starch conversion by Koji and fermentation
by Sake yeast proceed in the same fermenter at the same time. In Sake making, Koji not only works
as a starch converter, but also produces complexity in flavor of Sake.


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## Screwtop (29/7/10)

L_Bomb said:


> What percentage of adjuncts would you use in such a beer? :icon_cheers:



33% Adjuncts here


Recipe: Zwickels Corona
Style: Lite American Lager

Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 27.54 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 6.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 14.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 84.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.00 kg Pilsner Malt (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 66.67 % 
1.00 kg Corn, Flaked (2.6 EBC) Grain 22.22 % 
0.50 kg Rice, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 11.11 % 
20.00 gm Williamette [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 14.3 IBU 


Mash
15 min Mash In Add 12.00 L of water at 36.8 C 35.0 C 
15 min Rice and Corn Boil 7.00 L boil 15min then add boiling to mash 
120 min Conversion 66.0 C 
10 min Mash Out 77.0 C 


Notes:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mash in the pilsener malt at around 35C, take 12l of water
meanwhile boil the Corn and Rice with ~6l of water for about 15min.
add the boiling pulp into the mash, so youll achieve around 65 to 68C
keep it at this temp for around 2 hours, yeah it will need that long time to convert all the starch.
Stir well all the time. After 2 hours heat it up to 78C and mashout


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## Silo Ted (29/7/10)

That's scary. My earlier post included asking you for the corona recipe and the reasons why, and how it works in with my rice minded thoughts of the last three days but I left the question out of my reply. All the same you posted the recipe. Are you a bloody mindreader screwtop or did I post it somewhere else? 

I was first thinking of a very bland malt flavor, non existant really, with some rice and some light touches of POR to create a good beer that I could enjoy as well as pleasing the Tooheys and VB drinking mates and family. Dont know what the Willamette hop is all about but it would be hard for me not to add a 30 minute, flameout or dry hop to a brew  I should bite the bullet and try it. 

jakub thats good info and sounds like i suspected. Though I think the dodgy asian super booze I talked about was much higher in alc% than sak'e. Is sak'e distilled, i thought it was more of a strong wine.


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## Gulf (29/7/10)

Regarding "dodgy asian super booze", I have experienced this properly in Sapa (Northern Vietnam). I asked how it was made, particularly the part about the lack of enzymes in rice and was told they purchase enzyme (I'm assuming Amalase) from the markets.
So, rice is boiled up, mashed with the Amalase enzyme, fermented, distilled (once only I think, strength seemed to be about 25-30%). It gets you drunk...


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## Silo Ted (29/7/10)

Amylase, do you mean? Had to look it up, but Wiki says its an enzyme in human saliva, and also a function of the pancreas. What are the usable plant sources of amylase?


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## dth (30/7/10)

Amylase is present in barley that hasn't been overly kilned. It is destroyed at higher temperatures so only grains like pilsner or ale malt would contain any. Normally, it is used to convert the starches of the seed into sugars for growth, but by mashing grain at the right temperature the process is quickened, thus converting the starch into sugar for fermentation.

As mentioned earlier, koji mould also converts starches into sugars, although at a slower rate than that which would be obtained by mashing. This is due to the difference in temperature between a mash and a sake brew. The enzymes in barley are finished much quicker due to the higher temperature of the mash but as sake is fermented while the koji is converting the starches it has to been done at a much lower temperature.

Differences in temperature can also play a role in mashing due to different enzymes working at different temperatures. Beta amylase works better around the lower end of mashing temperatures, breaking the starches down into more simple, fully fermentable sugars. Alpha amylase is more dominant at higher mashing temperatures, breaking the starches down less and creating dextrins which don't ferment as well, leaving body and more flavour in the brew.

Other enzymes can be utilised at different temperatures during the mashing process for other effects such as breaking down proteins. All in all, mashing can be an incredibly simple process or extremely complicated depending on the different temperature rests you do.


Dan


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## Screwtop (30/7/10)

Silo Ted said:


> That's scary. My earlier post included asking you for the corona recipe and the reasons why, and how it works in with my rice minded thoughts of the last three days but I left the question out of my reply. All the same you posted the recipe. Are you a bloody mindreader screwtop or did I post it somewhere else?
> 
> I was first thinking of a very bland malt flavor, non existant really, with some rice and some light touches of POR to create a good beer that I could enjoy as well as pleasing the Tooheys and VB drinking mates and family. Dont know what the Willamette hop is all about but it would be hard for me not to add a 30 minute, flameout or dry hop to a brew  I should bite the bullet and try it.
> 
> jakub thats good info and sounds like i suspected. Though I think the dodgy asian super booze I talked about was much higher in alc% than sak'e. Is sak'e distilled, i thought it was more of a strong wine.




No mindreader ST :lol: was responding to:



L_Bomb said:


> What percentage of adjuncts would you use in such a beer? :icon_cheers:



I made Zwickels Corona using Horizon for bittering in place of Willamette. It's a fav hop for pale lagers, (a tip from a US brewer). If making a clone then hop as per the bittering (very light) in the recipe with no aroma addition. Brewing for you, then use hops as you will! It is very similar but way better than Corona.

Screwy


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## wynnum1 (30/7/10)

Sweet potato has enzyme and is used raw to convert rice


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## beerbrewer76543 (30/7/10)

Interesting...

Here's an abstract of an article on the subject of sweet potatoes: LINKY

Paraphrasing:
_Optimum α-Amylase activity occurred at 71.5 _
_Optimum β-Amylase activity occurred at 53 and it was inactivated at 60_

edit: some quick research shows most people pre-boil sweet potatoes when adding to beer but the above information would indicate that a step mash at 53* then 71* would be sufficient for the uncooked potato to self convert its own sugars


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## beerbrewer76543 (30/7/10)

Thinking about sweet potato a bit more maybe the following mash schedule would be appropriate for mashing sweet potato with barley malt:

53*C 30min for sweet potato a-amylase conversion
58*C 60min for barley a-amylase conversion
70*C 30min for both b-amylase conversion

Semi based on Palmer's graph as shown below


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