# Dano's All Grain Feral Hop Hog Clone



## danestead

There seems to be the odd Hop Hog Clone thread floating about at the moment however here are the details of my attempt/s.

The top part of this post is the most up to date version I plan on brewing next. It has some adjustments to better it based on my own and competition judges feedback. Below that is the original post I started this thread with.

Current version is #5

*Recipe: Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 5)*

*Equipment*
_-------------
20L Braumeister_

*Recipe Specifics*
----------------

Batch Size (L): 26.00 Post Boil
Total Grain (Kg): 6.12
Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.30
Target FG: 1.014
Anticipated EBC: 14.1
Anticipated IBU: 49.1 Tinseth
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Alc by Volume: 5.8%

*Grain/Extract/Sugar*

 % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 87.5 5.35 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
 10.0 0.61 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
 2.5 0.15 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125

*Hops*

 Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 30.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.59 32.5 60 min.

 15.00 g. Amarillo Pellet 7.79 5.9 15 min.
 15.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.68 4.3 15 min.
 15.00 g. Centennial Pellet 8.30 6.3 15 min.

 36.40 g. Amarillo Pellet 7.79 0.0 0 min.
 36.40 g. Cascade Pellet 5.68 0.0 0 min.
 36.40 g. Centennial Pellet 8.30 0.0 0 min.

_Once the boil is up and the 0 minute hops are added, I immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's and stop isomerisation, then do a whirlpool for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's._

 50.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.68 0.0 Dry Hop
 50.00 g. Centennial Pellet 8.30 0.0 Dry Hop
 50.00 g. Amarillo Pellet 7.79 0.0 Dry Hop

_Dry hop for approximately 4 days toward the end of fermentation._

*Yeast*
-----
[SIZE=10.5pt]Starter of _Fermentis US-05 American Ale, Wyeast 1056 or White Labs 001._[/SIZE]
_Fermented at 18 degrees. Diacetyl rest at 22 degrees once gravity hits 1.020._

*Mash Schedule*
-------------

Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 0
Saccharification Rest Temp: 67 Time: 60
Additional Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
Mash-out Rest Temp: 76 Time: 10
Sparge Temp: 76 Time: 0

*Water*
-------
Perth tap water put through a sediment and carbon filter.
Mash PH adjusted to 5.4 (room temp.) with Lactic Acid.
My initial attempts used RO/DI water built to a specific profile with salts but it appears this was causing an astringency.




_--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------_

*Original post*

My first attempt was designed based on some knowns, some tips offs and some guesses. In a side by side test of my first Hop Hog Clone attempt with an actual Feral Hop Hog stubbie, the following were noted.
[SIZE=10pt]· [/SIZE]Aroma - was spot on during the first few days of dry hopping however had changed by the time it was kegged
[SIZE=10pt]· [/SIZE]Appearance - colour was spot on and slightly hazy like the real deal
[SIZE=10pt]· [/SIZE]Flavour - spot on however it was mildly over bitter
[SIZE=10pt]· [/SIZE]Mouthfeel - spot on
[SIZE=10pt]· [/SIZE]Impression - A little too bitter and the aroma wasn't true to the real deal however all other parameters were spot on to my friend and my taste
Overall I was very very impressed at my first attempt. Details of my slightly altered second revision (which is to be my WA Xmas in July Case Swap case) are below. *The below version is not current. For the current version, refer to 'Recipe 3' at the top of this post.*


*Recipe: Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 2) - This is not the current version - Refer Recipe 3, above*

*Equipment*
-------------
20L Braumeister

*Recipe Specifics*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.00 (post boil)
Anticipated OG: 1.059
Anticipated FG: 1.015
Anticipated EBC: 15.6
Anticipated IBU: 54.8 (more than the Feral website's 48 IBU - yes)
Mash Efficiency: 82 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Alc by Volume: 5.8%

*Grain/Extract/Sugar*
% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
85.8 4.87 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
10.0 0.57 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
4.2 0.24 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125

*Hops*
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
27.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.28 29.4 60 min.

10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 4.5 15 min.
10.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 4.2 15 min.
10.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 4.9 15 min.
10.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.00 6.3 15 min.
10.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 10.40 5.5 15 min.

Once the boil is up I immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's then do a whirlpool/stand for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's (even though I based that recipe on 48).

8.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 0.0 Dry Hop
8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 0.0 Dry Hop
8.00 g. Citra Pellet 13.20 0.0 Dry Hop
8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 0.0 Dry Hop
8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 9.89 0.0 Dry Hop

Dry hop for 3 days toward the end of fermentation in hop bag then remove (revised procedure).

*Yeast*
-----
Fermentis US-05 American Ale

Fermented at 18 degrees.

*Mash Schedule*
-------------
Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 20
Intermediate Rest Temp: 67 Time: 60
Saccharification Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
Mash-out Rest Temp: 78 Time: 10
Sparge Temp: 78 Time: 0

*Water*
-------
RO/DI water built up to the following profile.

Calcium 110
Magnesium 20
Sodium 15
Sulphate 250
Chloride 50

My first revision only used a little CaCl2 and CaSO4 to bring the mash PH down and achieve a Cloride / Sulphate ratio of 1:1.

This revision is being brewed next week and as I said, it will be in the WA Xmas in July Case Swap (plus revision 3 will be in the Perth Royal Show) so hopefully I can get some unbiased feedback.

Cheers


----------



## Burt de Ernie

What kind of brewery do you use?


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## danestead

Burt de Ernie said:


> What kind of brewery do you use?


20L Braumeister so basically BIAB for snobs!


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## Burt de Ernie

> 20L Braumeister so basically BIAB for snobs!


Bugger it....if you cant spend your money on things you love what can you do?


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## jkhlt1210

danestead said:


> There seems to be the odd Hop Hog Clone thread floating about at the moment however here are the details of my attempt/s.
> 
> My first attempt was designed based on some knowns, some tips offs and some guesses. In a side by side test of my first Hop Hog Clone attempt with an actual Feral Hop Hog stubbie, the following were noted.
> 
> 
> Aroma - was spot on during the first few days of dry hopping however had changed by the time it was kegged
> Appearance - colour was spot on and slightly hazy like the real deal
> Flavour - spot on however it was mildly over bitter
> Mouthfeel - spot on
> Impression - A little too bitter and the aroma wasn't true to the real deal however all other parameters were spot on to my friend and my taste
> Overall I was very very impressed at my first attempt. Details of my slightly altered second revision (which is to be my WA Xmas in July Case Swap case) are below.
> 
> 
> _*Recipe: Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 2)*_
> 
> *Equipment*
> -------------
> 20L Braumeister
> 
> *Recipe Specifics*
> ----------------
> Batch Size (L): 25.00 (post boil)
> Anticipated OG: 1.059
> Anticipated FG: 1.015
> Anticipated EBC: 15.6
> Anticipated IBU: 54.8 (more than the Feral website's 48 IBU - yes)
> Mash Efficiency: 82 %
> Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
> Alc by Volume: 5.8%
> 
> 
> 
> *Grain/Extract/Sugar*
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 85.8 4.87 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
> 10.0 0.57 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
> 4.2 0.24 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125
> 
> *Hops*
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 27.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.28 29.4 60 min.
> 
> 10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 4.5 15 min.
> 10.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 4.2 15 min.
> 10.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 4.9 15 min.
> 10.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.00 6.3 15 min.
> 10.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 10.40 5.5 15 min.
> 
> Once the boil is up I immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's then do a whirlpool/stand for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's (even though I based that recipe on 48).
> 
> 8.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 0.0 Dry Hop
> 8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 0.0 Dry Hop
> 8.00 g. Citra Pellet 13.20 0.0 Dry Hop
> 8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 0.0 Dry Hop
> 8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 9.89 0.0 Dry Hop
> 
> Dry hop for 3 days toward the end of fermentation in hop bag then remove (revised procedure).
> 
> 
> *Yeast*
> -----
> Fermentis US-05 American Ale
> 
> Fermented at 18 degrees.
> 
> *Mash Schedule*
> -------------
> Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 20
> Intermediate Rest Temp: 67 Time: 60
> Saccharification Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
> Mash-out Rest Temp: 78 Time: 10
> Sparge Temp: 78 Time: 0
> 
> *Water*
> -------
> RO/DI water built up to the following profile.
> 
> Calcium 110
> Magnesium 20
> Sodium 15
> Sulphate 250
> Chloride 50
> 
> My first revision only used a little CaCl2 and CaSO4 to bring the mash PH down and achieve a Cloride / Sulphate ratio of 1:1.
> 
> 
> 
> This revision is being brewed next week and as I said, it will be in the WA Xmas in July Case Swap (plus revision 3 will be in the Perth Royal Show) so hopefully I can get some unbiased feedback.
> 
> Cheers :beerbang:


Hmmmmm looks interesting!!


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## mfeighan

I have tried this and its an absolute ripper. Look forward to trying your 2nd take Dane


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## Waratah67

I love this beer! This recipe has given me an ever better appreciation of it, and a new goal once I move into all grain.


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## n87

I am going to shamelessly steal this recipe and try it this weekend... possibly.

I have been looking for a HH clone for a few weeks now, since i first got a hold of this beautiful nectar. noone seems to have followed through... but it seems you have got close!


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## danestead

I put this down today guys. It came in a few points under at 1.056 which barely scrapes in as an IPA! Lets call it a session IPA. It should still come out at about 5.7% though Id say. Im off to pitch the yeast and Ill report back in a few weeks with the results.

Cheers


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## Tahoose

I'm interested in this also. Hope it comes out good.


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## rheffera

Yet another for the to brew list.


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## beercus

rheffera said:


> Yet another for the to brew list.


+1


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## danestead

Just a quick update.

The hog version 2 is sitting at FG in the ferment fridge and the dry hops were removed yesterday. I plan to crash chill it for 5 or so days tomorrow and then keg. At the moment it is tasting delicious out of the fermenter and much better balanced than last time. Fingers crossed it lives up to its promise when I do a side by side with an authentic hop hog in a weeks or so's time.


----------



## n87

im just about to turn the burn on for this one!
would love it to turn out a hop hog... but hell, even if im close should be an awesome beer


----------



## n87

well... what a complete fork up of a brew day

Burn hole through bag Check!
didnt realise you dont have all the hops you need Check!

started the mash, hurried over to LHBS (25 mins away)
got hops
came back spot on 60 mins
heated up
realised the bag was a little too light
ran around to find a collander or such
scooped all grains out
boiled.

currently in the cube on top of the 15 min additions... 4.5 hours... and now the clean up starts


on the up side, i hit 1.059 on pre boil! which goes against the recipe...


----------



## danestead

n87 said:


> well... what a complete fork up of a brew day
> 
> Burn hole through bag Check!
> didnt realise you dont have all the hops you need Check!
> 
> started the mash, hurried over to LHBS (25 mins away)
> got hops
> came back spot on 60 mins
> heated up
> realised the bag was a little too light
> ran around to find a collander or such
> scooped all grains out
> boiled.
> 
> currently in the cube on top of the 15 min additions... 4.5 hours... and now the clean up starts
> 
> 
> on the up side, i hit 1.059 on pre boil! which goes against the recipe...


Nice one. I hope it turns out a winner!


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## n87

danestead said:


> Nice one. I hope it turns out a winner!



it bloody well better


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## fattox

I'd be curious to try this recipe myself. The local chains (dannos and 1st choice) both stock it but be buggered if i know how fresh it is (probably goes through a few temp changes in the process of moving) so I will have to try it fresh off the keg instead of bottled for who knows how long! Sounds like a ripper recipe though


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## n87

fattox said:


> I'd be curious to try this recipe myself. The local chains (dannos and 1st choice) both stock it but be buggered if i know how fresh it is (probably goes through a few temp changes in the process of moving) so I will have to try it fresh off the keg instead of bottled for who knows how long! Sounds like a ripper recipe though


Yeah... i get a 4 pack from BWS, and it tasted nothing like the on i got from Dans a month back.

well... nothing like is a bit of a streatch... but it didnt move me like the (im gathering) fresher one from Dans.


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## huez

I've witness staff at dans move 4 packs of hop hog from the shelf into the fridge when stock is low. It is apparently delivered aus wide cold. It still always fresher than my local bottle shop though 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## danestead

I kegged and carbed my Feral Hop Hog version 2 this afternoon and have just done a side by side with an authentic model. I am pretty damn impressed! The issues with the first version were; too bitter and the dry hops changed aroma the longer they sat in the fermenter. This version has turned out pretty well bang on for bitterness  The aroma and hop flavour are 90% there, however I will need to do some further tweaking to try match it exactly. My palate isn't like a judges would be however I think I need to push the citrus slightly more in both aroma and flavour. The colour once again came up pretty good however it looks like it could do with a week in the keg to clear slightly more.

Overall, super happy! Only very minor tweaks from now on :chug:


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## Westo

nice work so yours is the one on the left?


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## danestead

Westo said:


> nice work so yours is the one on the left?


Yep. Might be a bit of chill haze or may just need a week in the keg to settle. Hop hog is never completely clear anyway, they only coarsly filter their beers which lets most of the yeast through.


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## n87

i put mine in the fermenter last night. starting to show some signs of life this morning.


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## marcuste

I was at the feral brewery back in 2011 before they sold out to the big guys (just jokes), anyway they had a special 'Hop Hog' on tap that was only available there and on very rare occasions at the Sail and Anchor at Freo I was told. It was the original Hop Hog aged in i think it was whisky oak barrels or something for 6 months. OMG to this day have never had a better brew. Was amazing. I will one day recreate that beer. This will be a good start on that road.

Edit: there it is at the bottom of their beer list. YUM. http://www.feralbrewing.com.au/our-beer/


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## danestead

I sent a couple of stubbies to my local Devine Cellars staff to try today. They were also sporting the new labelling I've been working on. I look forward to the feedback when I next drop in.


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## ralphstralph

cant wait to try this !!!! :chug:


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## n87

dry hopped mine Monday, going to remove hops Friday morning, then go to America for a week.... then bottle.

then wait....

then try! :drinks:


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## Aces High

from my attempts at this and the fact that I had one on tap last night in belmont, I would swear that there is a good percentage of galaxy hop in there


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## danestead

Aces High said:


> from my attempts at this and the fact that I had one on tap last night in belmont, I would swear that there is a good percentage of galaxy hop in there


Yeah possibly however the hops I have used are based on reliable information I received personally from someone in the know. Maybe the info was slightly off the mark, maybe the recipe has changed slightly over the years (which I know it has due to hop availability year to year etc) or maybe my ratios of each particular hop are slightly different. Ive not actually used galaxy so I know nothing about it however I would like to use it at some stage sonn because it sounds delicious when used correctly.


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## danestead

Well here is a substantial update on the tastings of my Hop Hog Clone (Revision 2).

I went back into Devine Cellars yesterday and the 3 gentlemen there had a taster of my beer and comments were along the lines of; "Best homebrew I've had in a while", "If it was a commercial beer I would have thought that it's a good one", "it really has that fruity American IPA nose", "Balanced" and "the taste lingers". The only criticism was that the mid palate could be improved a little. I'm not sure how I'd go about that or what exactly it means but I'll sit on it and see what the case swap guys say. This taster was not had in parallel to a genuine Hop Hog.

I had my last taste last night and the keg is now empty because the rest has been bottled up for the WA Xmas in July Case Swap this weekend. My comments and what I am trying to achieve with the 'Revision 3' below are:

More aroma - Adding a whirlpool addition.
Very slightly more bitterness - It is well balanced ATM however upping the IBU's to 58 to try balance it a little more toward bitterness to give that iconic IPA hit.
Adjusting the individual hop amounts - Trying to bring a bit more pineapple and citrus to the beer.
Reduce hop flavour slightly - Reduced the 15min addition by 20%
Adjusting the OG and target FG - OG to 1.057 and aiming for a FG of 1.013 (as measured in a genuine Hop Hog this morning) equalling 5.8%
Slight Mash sched. adjustment - Trying to sneak the FG down 1 point.

Planned recipe below.

Enjoy!


_*Recipe: Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 3)*_

*Equipment*
-------------
20L Braumeister

*Recipe Specifics*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.00 (post boil)
Anticipated OG: 1.057
Anticipated FG: 1.013
Anticipated EBC: 15.6
Anticipated IBU: 58 (more than the Feral website's 48 IBU - yes)
Mash Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Alc by Volume: 5.8%



*Grain/Extract/Sugar*
% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
85.8 4.86 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
10.0 0.57 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
4.2 0.24 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125

*Hops*
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.28 33.0 60 min.

10.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.00 6.4 15 min.
10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 4.6 15 min.
7.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 2.9 15 min.
7.00 g. Centennial  Pellet 9.33 3.5 15 min.
7.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 10.40 3.9 15 min.

6.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.00 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 deg C
6.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.00 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 deg C
4.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.60 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 deg C
4.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.90 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 deg C
4.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 10.40 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 deg C

Once the boil is up I will immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's and stop isomerisation, add the whirlpool hop addition then do a whirlpool/stand for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's (even though I based that recipe on 48 as opposed to this one's 58).

13.00 g. Citra Pellet 13.20 0.0 Dry Hop
13.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 0.0 Dry Hop
8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 0.0 Dry Hop
8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 0.0 Dry Hop
8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 9.89 0.0 Dry Hop

Dry hop for 4 days toward the end of fermentation in hop bag then remove (revised procedure).


*Yeast*
-----
Fermentis US-05 American Ale

Fermented at 18 degrees.

*Mash Schedule*
-------------
Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 20
Intermediate Rest Temp: 66 Time: 20
Intermediate Rest Temp: 67 Time: 40
Saccharification Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
Mash-out Rest Temp: 76 Time: 10
Sparge Temp: 76 Time: 0

*Water*
-------
RO/DI water built up to the following profile.

Calcium 110
Magnesium 20
Sodium 15
Sulphate 250
Chloride 50


Edit: Fixed an error with the dry hopping


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## time01

dano whats the difference betweem the 2 dry hops?


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## danestead

time01 said:


> dano whats the difference betweem the 2 dry hops?


Sorry mate, an error on my behalf. There shouldn't have been 2 lots of dry hopping. I've fixed the post. Cheers.


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## keifer33

Looking forward to tasting this beer after reading this.


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## n87

my SG is currently at ~1.011, which i would imagine pretty much FG.
tasting pretty good, starting to clear up, but still a ~2L krausen on top.


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## danestead

n87 said:


> my SG is currently at ~1.011, which i would imagine pretty much FG.
> tasting pretty good, starting to clear up, but still a ~2L krausen on top.


What was your OG, how much yeast did you pitch and what temp/s did you mash at?


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## n87

danestead said:


> What was your OG, how much yeast did you pitch and what temp/s did you mash at?



Yeast: MJ's west coast
OG: i think it was 1.058... would have to check my notes.
i did a step mash at the temps spec'd in your recipie, or as close as possible. lost ~1.5 degrees over the 60 mins.

the SG was at 1.017 3 days ago, and 1.011 last night.


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## Byran

danestead said:


> Yep. Might be a bit of chill haze or may just need a week in the keg to settle. Hop hog is never completely clear anyway, they only coarsly filter their beers which lets most of the yeast through.


Every time ive had it on tap its been as cloudy as yours mate.


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## danestead

n87 said:


> Yeast: MJ's west coast
> OG: i think it was 1.058... would have to check my notes.
> i did a step mash at the temps spec'd in your recipie, or as close as possible. lost ~1.5 degrees over the 60 mins.
> 
> the SG was at 1.017 3 days ago, and 1.011 last night.


Ahh maybe the MJ yeast is where that extra attenuation has come from.


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## n87

and, forgot to mention, 2 packs.
pitched at 16-17
fermented at 17-18

was still attempting to climb out of the fermenter on Tuesday... had to change the glad wrap again.
that's with 10L+ headroom...


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## Logman

Just set my brewery back up, going to try this next brew, looks like a ripper. I don't have Simcoe though so I'll probably use more CItra in it's place.

Do you have a Beersmith 2 file?


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## danestead

Logman said:


> Just set my brewery back up, going to try this next brew, looks like a ripper. I don't have Simcoe though so I'll probably use more CItra in it's place.
> 
> Do you have a Beersmith 2 file?


Sorry mate I dont have a bs2 file.


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## SnakeDoctor

Thanks for sharing, awesome that you included the extra detail inc water profile etc!


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## time01

couple of questions danestead, would love to give this a crack, but as its a bit of an outlay for ingredients I don't want to do it half a$$ed.

I BIAB no chill, but could attempt to cool the wort with ice bags etc. and ditch the no chill if you think it will make a difference?
is your end volume 25l?
as opposed to the various stages you mash at, could I just go 90 mins at 66 degrees for example?
is 90 min mash essential?
is adjusting water profile essential? as I have never paid much any attention to this before.

as I said happy to do the hard yards, just probably limited with my equipment is all.


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## n87

time01 said:


> couple of questions danestead, would love to give this a crack, but as its a bit of an outlay for ingredients I don't want to do it half a$$ed.
> 
> I BIAB no chill, but could attempt to cool the wort with ice bags etc. and ditch the no chill if you think it will make a difference?
> is your end volume 25l?
> as opposed to the various stages you mash at, could I just go 90 mins at 66 degrees for example?
> is 90 min mash essential?
> is adjusting water profile essential? as I have never paid much any attention to this before.
> 
> as I said happy to do the hard yards, just probably limited with my equipment is all.


i did mine BIAB no chill. i threw the 15min hops in the cube, and didnt worry about the water chem.
i did do the step mash.

mine is still in the fermenter, will be botteing it at 3 weeks in the fermenter (was/is away for half of that, will be bottleing when i get home)

by the way i figure it, if you dont hit the nail, you will make a dint close.... either that our you screwes something up big time.

EDIT: fixed drunken mess... i hope


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## danestead

time01 said:


> couple of questions danestead, would love to give this a crack, but as its a bit of an outlay for ingredients I don't want to do it half a$$ed.


Answers in red!

I know there are a lot of hops in this, but seriously, you could do it with a single variety like Amarillo or try Amarillo and Simcoe (which is meant to be an amazing combination). Its going to end up a really great beer if not better than the muddle of my 5 hop varieties.

I BIAB no chill, but could attempt to cool the wort with ice bags etc. and ditch the no chill if you think it will make a difference? I haven't ever no-chilled so I can't help your there but what you are after in this beer and AIPA's in general is lots of late hops. Do what you have to do to achieve this with no-chill. Also, make sure you allow for the IBU's that will be continuing to extract as your wort slowly cools in the cube or whatever - otherwise you will end up with an over bitter beer like my first batch
is your end volume 25l? My post boil volume is 25L, I then lose about 2 or 3L to trub in the kettle, 1L to shrinkage and about 2L in the fermenter
as opposed to the various stages you mash at, could I just go 90 mins at 66 degrees for example? Yes that should be fine. or your info. the 72 degree step is for head retention. Not critical however i've had some good success in a 10min 72deg rest giving a beautiful creamy lasting head
is 90 min mash essential? Probably not, I just did that because this beer stretches the capabilities of my system so I thought I would give it an extra half hour than normal
is adjusting water profile essential? as I have never paid much any attention to this before. Nope - that is just me trying to really dial in the ideal water profile for an IPA however whatever water you use normally should be just fine

as I said happy to do the hard yards, just probably limited with my equipment is all.

Good luck!


----------



## time01

danestead sounds like the volume you are left with at the end of fermentation is 19-20litres?
as I BIAB and put hop additions in a bag I don't lose a great deal to rub.

thanks very much for the detailed reply by the way.


----------



## danestead

time01 said:


> danestead sounds like the volume you are left with at the end of fermentation is 19-20litres?
> as I BIAB and put hop additions in a bag I don't lose a great deal to rub.
> 
> thanks very much for the detailed reply by the way.


yeah 19L into a keg


----------



## StalkingWilbur

After trying this from the case swap this is now on my list to brew. Fantastic beer!


----------



## ralphstralph

giving this ago this weekend cant wait..... :chug:


----------



## n87

Bottled this on Sat.
tasting promising, clearing up really quickly aswell.

but its not carbing up fast enough! argh!


----------



## danestead

n87 said:


> Bottled this on Sat.
> tasting promising, clearing up really quickly aswell.
> 
> but its not carbing up fast enough! argh!


Kegging is my only answer to that!

I'll be brewing my 3rd batch in about 4 weeks. Fingers crossed it's the best version yet


----------



## MAX POWER

Hey Guys,

I'm a noob with this all grain thing, and even more of a noob with brewsmith. 
This recipe sounds good and I'm planning on doing it this weekend.

I'm just wondering if anyone can help with the Barrett Burston - Ale Malt in brewsmith?
I don't know much about various grains, and as Ale malt doesn't appear in brewsmith, I'm wondering which one I should select.

Cheers.


----------



## n87

in Beersmith, i used 'Pale Malt (2 row) UK (5.9 EBC)'


----------



## danestead

MAX POWER said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I'm a noob with this all grain thing, and even more of a noob with brewsmith.
> This recipe sounds good and I'm planning on doing it this weekend.
> 
> I'm just wondering if anyone can help with the Barrett Burston - Ale Malt in brewsmith?
> I don't know much about various grains, and as Ale malt doesn't appear in brewsmith, I'm wondering which one I should select.
> 
> Cheers.


My first recipe used a pilsner malt with 20% munich malt as opposed to an ale malt and 10% munich in the 2nd (and soon to be 3rd trial). I havent really got a particular base malt as a preference for this beer as yet however your standard pilsner, golden promise, ale and even maris otter (possibly cut the munich back some more though or get rid of it all together) should be fine. I just use what I have at the moment and it happens to be BB Ale.


----------



## huez

MAX POWER said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I'm a noob with this all grain thing, and even more of a noob with brewsmith.
> This recipe sounds good and I'm planning on doing it this weekend.
> 
> I'm just wondering if anyone can help with the Barrett Burston - Ale Malt in brewsmith?
> I don't know much about various grains, and as Ale malt doesn't appear in brewsmith, I'm wondering which one I should select.
> 
> Cheers.


There's an add on menu in beersmith where there is a list of all different brands of malts and yeasts. You will probably find you have to add it from there and then it will appear in the grain menu

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## danestead

So I've chickened out a bit on all the changes (albeit minor) for my *3rd edition* Hop Hog Clone. I think it is better I stick to a couple of minor changes per brew to not complicate and muddle things too much. I was going to edit my post #31 however it seems it is locked out now so below the WA Xmas in July Case Swap comments I've attached the updated and copied post.

WA Xmas in July Case Swap comments for Dano's Hop Hog Clone (*edition number 2)*:

NEV- First off I got the mineral bite but after the first glass it mellowed, its a good beer, nice and mellow and not too hoppy for me. Cheers
StalkingWilbur - Damn. I really enjoyed this. If I had known what I was in for I would've made sure I had a hop hog on hand so I could do a side by side. The aroma jumped out of the bottle and reminded me of hop hog. I think the taste was pretty close too and packed a nice hop flavor and punch. Will be looking to brew this at some point.
lanerigg - a bloody good clone! really enjoyed it. Will be making it soon
keifer33 - Great beer mate. Maybe a little drier and slightly more hop aroma and it will be an even better beer.
recharge - hop hog clone. I had a feral hop hog in tap at the kalamunda hotel on Wednesday for lunch, was disappointing. Not so with your beer, it was very enjoyable good balance of malt and hops I was looking for more. Thanks.
jyo- yup- this is tops. I shared this with a mate who is a Hop Hog freak and we were both impressed. If you truly want a clone, then I agree with Keiffer with there maybe being too much body, but flavour and aroma were pretty damn close. A great beer.
Ned- I enjoyed this, well balanced, not quite as aggressive as the real deal, but pretty bloody good
danestead- cheers for the feedback guys, really appreciated. I also agree that the body needs some thinning and a dryer finish and the aroma needs a boost which it what I've adjusted for my planned version 3.
Neander - Loved this beer. Didnt take notes at the time but I was impressed with the likeness of the clone. Would be happy to sit back and drain a keg.

Below is the revised, and largely copied from post #31, final recipe for *edition 3* which is getting brewed for the Perth Royal Beer Show in 3 weeks. Changes in *bold*:


_Well here is a substantial update on the tastings of my Hop Hog Clone (Revision 2)._

_I went back into Devine Cellars yesterday and the 3 gentlemen there had a taster of my beer and comments were along the lines of; "Best homebrew I've had in a while", "If it was a commercial beer I would have thought that it's a good one", "it really has that fruity American IPA nose", "Balanced" and "the taste lingers". The only criticism was that the mid palate could be improved a little. I'm not sure how I'd go about that or what exactly it means but I'll sit on it and see what the case swap guys say. This taster was not had in parallel to a genuine Hop Hog._

_I had my last taste last night and the keg is now empty because the rest has been bottled up for the WA Xmas in July Case Swap this weekend. My comments and what I am trying to achieve with the 'Revision 3' below are:_

_More aroma - Adding a whirlpool addition._
_Very slightly more bitterness - It is well balanced ATM however trying to balance it a little more toward bitterness to give that iconic IPA hit. *The revised target FG should achieve that.*_
_Adjusting the individual hop amounts - Trying to bring a bit more pineapple and citrus to the beer._
*Reduce hop flavour slightly - Reduced the 15min addition by 20%*
_Adjusting the OG and target FG - OG to 1.057 and aiming for a FG of 1.013 (as measured in a genuine Hop Hog this morning) equalling 5.8%_
_Slight Mash sched. adjustment - Trying to sneak the FG down 1 point._
*Cleaner ferment - Fermenting at 16 degrees with a 22 degree diacetyl rest once gravity hits 1.020.*

_Planned recipe below._

_Enjoy!_


_*Recipe: Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 3)*

*Equipment*
-------------
20L Braumeister

*Recipe Specifics*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.00 (post boil)
Anticipated OG: 1.057
Anticipated FG: 1.013
Anticipated EBC: 15.6
Anticipated IBU: *55* (more than the Feral website's 48 IBU - yes)
Mash Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Alc by Volume: 5.8%



*Grain/Extract/Sugar*
% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
85.8 4.86 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
10.0 0.57 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
4.2 0.24 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125

*Hops*
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------_

_24.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.93 16.4 60 min._

*13.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 8.9 15 min.*
*13.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 5.9 15 min.*
*8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 3.2 15 min.*
*8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 3.9 15 min.*
*8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 4.7 15 min.*



_6.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
_6.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
_4.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
_4.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
_4.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._


_Once the boil is up I will immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's and stop isomerisation, add the whirlpool hop addition then do a whirlpool/stand for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's (even though I based that recipe on 48 as opposed to this one's 58)._


_13.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 0.0 Dry Hop_
_13.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 0.0 Dry Hop_
_8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 0.0 Dry Hop_
_8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 0.0 Dry Hop_
_8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 0.0 Dry Hop_


_Dry hop for 4 days toward the end of fermentation in hop bag then remove (revised procedure).


*Yeast*
-----
Fermentis US-05 American Ale

*Fermented at 16 degrees. Diacetyl rest at 22 degrees once gravity hits 1.020.*

*Mash Schedule*
-------------
Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 20
Intermediate Rest Temp: 66 Time: 20_
_Intermediate Rest Temp: 67 Time: 40
Saccharification Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
Mash-out Rest Temp: 76 Time: 10
Sparge Temp: 76 Time: 0

*Water*
-------
RO/DI water built up to the following profile.

Calcium 110
Magnesium 20
Sodium 15
Sulphate 250
Chloride 50_


----------



## n87

I sent my version to Mr Goomba as his lotto winnings, and it looks like he will be giving it a full writeup in a couple of weeks.... it still needs a little bit of time in the bottle.


and by beersmiths calculations, mine came out to 56 IBUs, though i no chilled it, so there is no easy way of confirming that.


----------



## n87

so feedback from both parties that received this beer is positive.

Lord Raja Goomba I: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/81843-2014-july-lotto-tasting-thread/?p=1215512

Jaypes: Nicely carbed and a great hop aroma. Ibu's are bang on with the malt profile. Mate you are on a winner with this one. Maybe a little diacetyl but nothing that stands out. Send me the recipe!


Personally, i am yet to try it now that its carbed up fully, have one in the fridge doing some final clearing waiting for me to get rid of this damn flu.


----------



## danestead

That's great n87, I'm glad they enjoyed it. My brew also had a slightly flawed ferment so hopefully I can sort that issue out when I brew it again in about a week.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Just adding to my results on the lotto thread.

Great recipe, and obviously hits the marks in a lot of ways - the balance is excellent, and the hopping isn't muddied (which can occasionally happen with an AIPA especially when recipes are pre-refinement beers). n87 used M44 - and I've not used this yeast, but through some fusels for me that muted the hopping, especially aroma. But as I said, the creation of the hopped wort was excellent.

I'm agreeing with danestead, I reckon US05, on a 17 degree ferment would be ideal to really let this shine.

I might suggest that some Chinook late in the boil instead of Amarillo (or include it in with it), might be in order.

Either way, excellent beer.


----------



## huez

So i brewed a batch of this on monday and im starting to consider the dry hop schedule, 50grams of dry hops seems on the low side for me for an IPA, more akin to an APA. Thats obvisouly my preference but whats everyones thoughts that has tried this beer , needs a heavier dry hopping regime or keep it as is?


----------



## carniebrew

danestead said:


> _*Hops*
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------_
> 
> _24.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.93 16.4 60 min._
> 
> *13.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 8.9 15 min.*
> *13.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 5.9 15 min.*
> *8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 3.2 15 min.*
> *8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 3.9 15 min.*
> *8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 4.7 15 min.*
> 
> 
> 
> _6.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
> _6.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
> _4.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
> _4.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
> _4.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
> 
> 
> _Once the boil is up I will immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's and stop isomerisation, add the whirlpool hop addition then do a whirlpool/stand for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's (even though I based that recipe on 48 as opposed to this one's 58)._
> 
> 
> _13.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 0.0 Dry Hop_
> _13.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 0.0 Dry Hop_
> _8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 0.0 Dry Hop_
> _8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 0.0 Dry Hop_
> _8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 0.0 Dry Hop_
> 
> 
> _Dry hop for 4 days toward the end of fermentation in hop bag then remove (revised procedure)._


Am I adding up wrong, or do those IBU's only come to around 44, rather than 55? Also, why do the alpha's look really precise, e.g. Simcoe at 11.03%, and Cascade at 7.63%?


----------



## huez

beersmith definitely calculated the 59 ibus stated above when i entered it in. I'd say the stated ibu's have been pulled straight from inbuilt profiles in the software


----------



## danestead

carniebrew said:


> Am I adding up wrong, or do those IBU's only come to around 44, rather than 55? Also, why do the alpha's look really precise, e.g. Simcoe at 11.03%, and Cascade at 7.63%?


Not sure why it wouldn't add up to 55 ibus but in any case, just add the indicated weight of each hop at each stage and adjust the 60min addition to hit 55 ibus.
Edit: I've probably jiggled the figures after making adjustments on the brew software for display on here without updating all of the info, ie the ibu each individual hop addition contributes. Looks like the magnum addition should contribute considerably more ibus than indicated however it still stands that you should just adjust tthat addition to end up with 55 ibus total for the recipe.

The accurate aa% may come from me applying a 'hop time degradation' as some of my hops are a year or 2 old.


----------



## danestead

Slightly off topic, but I've been organising stuff for my 30th which is going to have 5 beers on tap and a craft brew pub type theme.

Here's a few photos.


----------



## jkhlt1210

Hell yeah! Hey where's you get labels and crown seals done?That looks like the best party ever! Also is that a LCPA clone I see? Recipe?


----------



## jkhlt1210

Hell yeah! Hey where's you get labels and crown seals done?That looks like the best party ever! Also is that a LCPA clone I see? Recipe?


----------



## CrookedFingers

Nice work danestead,
that looks to be one heck of a shindig !!!

Thanks for the recipe and reviews fellas.
Will give this hog recipe a go one day too.


CF


----------



## danestead

jkhlt1210 said:


> Hell yeah! Hey where's you get labels and crown seals done?That looks like the best party ever! Also is that a LCPA clone I see? Recipe?


Cheers man.

Labels and caps designed by me. Labels printed by my uncle who owns a label factory, caps printed by www.bottlemark.com

Beers for my bday are Grazza's Rice Lager, brewed by my mate Mikey. That recipe has been a big hit for about 7 years now. The rest are the LCBA clone, Dr. Smurto's Golden Ale and Dr. Smurto's Light Amber (Rogers) which is slightly changed to my tastes, all from the recipe database and brewed multiple times by myself. Hog Beer is my Hop Hog clone!

Yummmm....


----------



## Hawko777

danestead said:


> There seems to be the odd Hop Hog Clone thread floating about at the moment however here are the details of my attempt/s.
> 
> My first attempt was designed based on some knowns, some tips offs and some guesses. In a side by side test of my first Hop Hog Clone attempt with an actual Feral Hop Hog stubbie, the following were noted.
> 
> Aroma - was spot on during the first few days of dry hopping however had changed by the time it was kegged
> Appearance - colour was spot on and slightly hazy like the real deal
> Flavour - spot on however it was mildly over bitter
> Mouthfeel - spot on
> Impression - A little too bitter and the aroma wasn't true to the real deal however all other parameters were spot on to my friend and my taste
> Overall I was very very impressed at my first attempt. Details of my slightly altered second revision (which is to be my WA Xmas in July Case Swap case) are below.
> 
> 
> _*Recipe: Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 2)*_
> 
> *Equipment*
> -------------
> 20L Braumeister
> 
> *Recipe Specifics*
> ----------------
> Batch Size (L): 25.00 (post boil)
> Anticipated OG: 1.059
> Anticipated FG: 1.015
> Anticipated EBC: 15.6
> Anticipated IBU: 54.8 (more than the Feral website's 48 IBU - yes)
> Mash Efficiency: 82 %
> Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
> Alc by Volume: 5.8%
> 
> 
> 
> *Grain/Extract/Sugar*
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 85.8 4.87 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
> 10.0 0.57 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
> 4.2 0.24 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125
> 
> *Hops*
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 27.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.28 29.4 60 min.
> 
> 10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 4.5 15 min.
> 10.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 4.2 15 min.
> 10.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 4.9 15 min.
> 10.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.00 6.3 15 min.
> 10.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 10.40 5.5 15 min.
> 
> Once the boil is up I immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's then do a whirlpool/stand for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's (even though I based that recipe on 48).
> 
> 8.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 0.0 Dry Hop
> 8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 0.0 Dry Hop
> 8.00 g. Citra Pellet 13.20 0.0 Dry Hop
> 8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 0.0 Dry Hop
> 8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 9.89 0.0 Dry Hop
> 
> Dry hop for 3 days toward the end of fermentation in hop bag then remove (revised procedure).
> 
> 
> *Yeast*
> -----
> Fermentis US-05 American Ale
> 
> Fermented at 18 degrees.
> 
> *Mash Schedule*
> -------------
> Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 20
> Intermediate Rest Temp: 67 Time: 60
> Saccharification Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
> Mash-out Rest Temp: 78 Time: 10
> Sparge Temp: 78 Time: 0
> 
> *Water*
> -------
> RO/DI water built up to the following profile.
> 
> Calcium 110
> Magnesium 20
> Sodium 15
> Sulphate 250
> Chloride 50
> 
> My first revision only used a little CaCl2 and CaSO4 to bring the mash PH down and achieve a Cloride / Sulphate ratio of 1:1.
> 
> 
> 
> This revision is being brewed next week and as I said, it will be in the WA Xmas in July Case Swap (plus revision 3 will be in the Perth Royal Show) so hopefully I can get some unbiased feedback.
> 
> Cheers :beerbang:


Sounds like a rip snorter.
Getting all those hops might be a trick for me.
I have spoken to Brendan Varis from Feral Brewing and he did mention he uses Whitelabs yeasts.
I love Hoegaarden but his Feral White using the whitelabs just didn't do it for me. Wyeast imo is better in it's characteristics.
I have used dried yeasts when I get lazy but the liquid yeasts seem to produce better results in my experience.
I would like to hear your opinion though.

Cheers


----------



## danestead

Hawko777 said:


> Sounds like a rip snorter.
> Getting all those hops might be a trick for me.
> I have spoken to Brendan Varis from Feral Brewing and he did mention he uses Whitelabs yeasts.
> I love Hoegaarden but his Feral White using the whitelabs just didn't do it for me. Wyeast imo is better in it's characteristics.
> I have used dried yeasts when I get lazy but the liquid yeasts seem to produce better results in my experience.
> I would like to hear your opinion though.
> 
> Cheers


Ive also spoken to staff at Feral and I was told they use US05. It is rumoured that it isnt even rehydrated also but that is something that has been discussed plenty on AHB. Ive not used any whitelabs yeasts however 001, 1056 and Us05 are meant to be the exact same strain.

That aside, I think I may try 1272 at some stage as I find sometimes my beers are just missing something. Id like to see the effect of 1272. My 3rd revision of this recipe is being brewed in a week for the Perth Royal Beer Show so once that has come back with some feedback it will give me a better idea on where to improve.


----------



## jkhlt1210

danestead said:


> Ive also spoken to staff at Feral and I was told they use US05. It is rumoured that it isnt even rehydrated also but that is something that has been discussed plenty on AHB. Ive not used any whitelabs yeasts however 001, 1056 and Us05 are meant to be the exact same strain.
> 
> That aside, I think I may try 1272 at some stage as I find sometimes my beers are just missing something. Id like to see the effect of 1272. My 3rd revision of this recipe is being brewed in a week for the Perth Royal Beer Show so once that has come back with some feedback it will give me a better idea on where to improve.


Keep us updated in your results! Would love to hear how it goes at the show!


----------



## jkhlt1210

danestead said:


> Ive also spoken to staff at Feral and I was told they use US05. It is rumoured that it isnt even rehydrated also but that is something that has been discussed plenty on AHB. Ive not used any whitelabs yeasts however 001, 1056 and Us05 are meant to be the exact same strain.
> 
> That aside, I think I may try 1272 at some stage as I find sometimes my beers are just missing something. Id like to see the effect of 1272. My 3rd revision of this recipe is being brewed in a week for the Perth Royal Beer Show so once that has come back with some feedback it will give me a better idea on where to improve.


Keep us updated in your results! Would love to hear how it goes at the show!


----------



## n87

I finally got around to doing a side by side

Look:
mine came out slightly darker, may be due to it being a touch cloudier.
Mine also got a nice amount of head on the pour (~5mm). HH got much less

Smell:
mine is not as citrusy as the HH. mine also has a slight smell of malt and side by side, i think i can smell the diacetyl LRG pointed out

Taste:
the HH is a touch bitter..er, but smoother. mine also has the faintest taste of roasty malt. i think i may have carbonated a poofteenth too much.

Overall:
i find this to be an awesome beer by itself, just doesnt _quite_ live up to its name sake. not quite as complex as it needs to be.


Conclusion:
Vs the original recipe, i think i need a little more late additions to bring up the bitterness softly, and a bit more dry hop to keep up with the punch in the nose of the Hop Hog.
i think i will also need to tweak my fermenting technique. different yeast, colder with a D-rest. the yeast dropping the FG down those extra couple of points prob didnt help with the smoothness.


Reading the revisions youve made to the recipe, it should be a goer!
its back on my list of next beers to make

Many thanks to you Mr Dane!


and your bottles and taps look cool.


----------



## danestead

n87, speaking of Hop Hog, I brewed v3 today. Here are a few cheeky photos.

Just after mash in.





Transferring to the fermenter.


----------



## n87

Cool,

Cant wait to hear how it turns out.


----------



## carniebrew

n87 said:


> Taste:
> the HH is a touch bitter..er, but smoother. mine also has the faintest taste of roasty malt. i think i may have carbonated a poofteenth too much.


Maybe try first wort hopping your bittering addition, see if that smooths it out?

Where are you getting a roasty malt flavour from?


----------



## n87

carniebrew said:


> Where are you getting a roasty malt flavour from?


the beer...

maybe roasty isnt the right word, but i can get a hint of not light malt.


----------



## carniebrew

Ok, I deserved that...

Any chance you might have scorched the grain at some stage?


----------



## n87

I did burn a hole in my bag on this brew. scooped pretty much all the grain out. but there was a fair amount of flour in the bottom... that may be the cause.

It may not be a perfect representation of the Hop Hog, but my early hypothesis holds true. still a great drop, and my best to date.




n87 said:


> would love it to turn out a hop hog... but hell, even if im close should be an awesome beer



:beerbang:


----------



## jkhlt1210

danestead said:


> n87, speaking of Hop Hog, I brewed v3 today. Here are a few cheeky photos.
> 
> Just after mash in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transferring to the fermenter.


Hey danestead on beersmith 2 recipe for Fishers Hop Hog uses spalter for bittering..... What's your thoughts?


----------



## danestead

jkhlt1210 said:


> Hey danestead on beersmith 2 recipe for Fishers Hop Hog uses spalter for bittering..... What's your thoughts?


I cant really help you with that im sorry. I dont even know the slightest about spalter and have never used it. I just use magnum because there is a bucket loud of info out there on how great it is for a clean bitterness and it means I can save my nice citrusy american hops for more brews.


----------



## jkhlt1210

danestead said:


> I cant really help you with that im sorry. I dont even know the slightest about spalter and have never used it. I just use magnum because there is a bucket loud of info out there on how great it is for a clean bitterness and it means I can save my nice citrusy american hops for more brews.


All good mate I want to try yours first anyway!


----------



## doon

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/lifestyle/a/22340786/hop-on-to-ferals-hog/


----------



## carniebrew

doon said:


> https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/lifestyle/a/22340786/hop-on-to-ferals-hog/


"The recipe's no secret. The current Hop Hog has cascade, centennial and amarillo hops from America's 2013 harvest,"
The secret was "not so much what's in the beer as how we apply it"


----------



## danestead

carniebrew said:


> [font=GuardEgyp-n']"The recipe's no secret. The current Hop Hog has cascade, centennial and amarillo hops from America's 2013 harvest,"[/font]
> [font=GuardEgyp-n']The secret was "not so much what's in the beer as how we apply it"[/font]


Nice!

I think a few different stories geta round though depending on who you speak to and Id emagine it changes year tl year depending on availability of ingredients.

The more and more I think about this recipe and brewing in general, I think that you could give 10 different brewers with 10 different ideas and systems the same recipe, and you will get a slightly different end result. Different water profile, chilling technique, fermentation temp., yeast count, dry hop technique. It makes me wonder that although Ive brewed Dr Smurtos Golden Ale at least 5 times, does it really taste like the one Dr Smurto brews at home?


----------



## MastersBrewery

danestead said:


> Nice!
> 
> I think a few different stories geta round though depending on who you speak to and Id emagine it changes year tl year depending on availability of ingredients.


I'd have to agree, the version I had some 3 years back at the brewery was fresh and had a real dank aroma, awesome beer, I don't think it's as good now though.

MB


----------



## jkhlt1210

danestead said:


> Nice!
> 
> I think a few different stories geta round though depending on who you speak to and Id emagine it changes year tl year depending on availability of ingredients.
> 
> The more and more I think about this recipe and brewing in general, I think that you could give 10 different brewers with 10 different ideas and systems the same recipe, and you will get a slightly different end result. Different water profile, chilling technique, fermentation temp., yeast count, dry hop technique. It makes me wonder that although Ive brewed Dr Smurtos Golden Ale at least 5 times, does it really taste like the one Dr Smurto brews at home?


Hey danestead I'm getting my ingredients for this brew tomorrow! I'm doing your revision 2 recipe and see if I do it justice. Pick up grains tomorrow I'll probably brew it Sunday night. I can't wait!


----------



## storeboughtcheeseburgers

Can I use Wyeast 1056 American Ale liquid for this?


----------



## danestead

storeboughtcheeseburgers said:


> Can I use Wyeast 1056 American Ale liquid for this?


Yeah of course you can. Or 1272.

1056, us05 and wlp 001 are the same strain.


----------



## storeboughtcheeseburgers

Cool I'm going to punch this out next weekend:

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Hop Hog Clone

Asst Brewer: 
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 49.76 l
Post Boil Volume: 45.76 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 44.00 l 
Bottling Volume: 44.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 14.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 52.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 72.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
8.46 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EB Grain 1 86.8 % 
0.94 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 2 9.6 % 
0.35 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 3 3.6 % 
43.63 g Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 31.6 IBUs 
13.96 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 3.6 IBUs 
13.96 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 2.3 IBUs 
13.96 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 4.2 IBUs 
13.96 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 5.0 IBUs 
13.96 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 5.4 IBUs 
22.00 g Brewbrite (Boil 10.0 mins) Spice 10 - 
1.0 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 Yeast 11 - 
11.47 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Day Hop 12 0.0 IBUs 
11.47 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs 
11.47 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs 
11.47 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs 
11.47 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 9.75 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time 
Mash In Add 25.42 l of water at 74.0 C 65.6 C  75 min 

Sparge: Fly sparge with 34.10 l water at 75.6 C

Probably will do some sort of step mash - start off cool, 64-65ish and ramp it up after 20 mins and mash for longer - I generally end up doing this in most cases anyway.

Is there any reason why this needs to be a 90 minute boil?

I'll prob chill with ice in the laundry sink styles as I generally no chill, but sounds like it has its benefits. The dry hops will be halved (estimated) as half of it will be cubed.


----------



## danestead

storeboughtcheeseburgers said:


> Is there any reason why this needs to be a 90 minute boil?.


No not really. Just cos! No actually I think I did that because my Braumeister has a weak boil and also because if I do a 90min boil, I get more evaporation which means I can sparge with more water which bumps my efficiency up a tad. The malt pipe is pretty full with this recipe so any increase in efficiency I can get helps in the end.


----------



## storeboughtcheeseburgers

danestead said:


> No not really. Just cos! No actually I think I did that because my Braumeister has a weak boil and also because if I do a 90min boil, I get more evaporation which means I can sparge with more water which bumps my efficiency up a tad. The malt pipe is pretty full with this recipe so any increase in efficiency I can get helps in the end.


Sweet - Yeah my 3 ring burner can boil pretty well so I'll prob just do 60 mins. Reckon it will be a decent brew - I'll post back as to how it goes. Those Braumeisters are an expensive bit of gear!


----------



## n87

i cubed 50L of REV3 yesterday, cant wait till its done.


----------



## danestead

n87 said:


> i cubed 50L of REV3 yesterday, cant wait till its done.


Nice!

Ive got revision 3 in the keg however Im on rations. I need 3 long necks for the royal show comp, 10 stubbies to bottle up to let people take home at my 30th and the rest will be on tap at the 30th. That doesnt leave much for the party so I think ill only be able to spare 1 stubbie to put away to do my taste comparisons. Out of the fermenter it was tasting very promising though and I think the extra Citra and Amarillo helped.


----------



## storeboughtcheeseburgers

Hi Dano and Co,

I am brewing this as we speak - just added the first hop addition. Cheers dano for the recipe. I have tweaked it a little bit - mainly the dry hopping and the bittering hops at the start. Added a little simcoe with the magnum as they are around the same AA%.

I make 44L batches - *everything (except the dry hop)* is for 44 litres, the dry hopping schedule is for 20-22 litre batch. Really looking forward to trying this out . When you see feral brewery stuff is like 60 bucks for 16 beers it makes giving it a crack def worth a go.

Recipe: Hop Hog Clone TYPE: All Grain
Style: American IPA
---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
SRM: 14.5 EBC SRM RANGE: 11.8-29.6 EBC
IBU: 65.9 IBUs Tinseth IBU RANGE: 40.0-70.0 IBUs
OG: 1.050 SG OG RANGE: 1.056-1.075 SG
FG: 1.010 SG FG RANGE: 1.010-1.018 SG
BU:GU: 1.308 Calories: 427.1 kcal/l Est ABV: 5.2 % 
EE%: 72.00 % Batch: 44.00 l Boil: 49.76 l BT: 60 Mins

---WATER CHEMISTRY ADDITIONS----------------


Total Grain Weight: 9.75 kg Total Hops: 224.89 g oz.
---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD WATER CHEMICALS BEFORE GRAINS!!<<<<<<<
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
8.46 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EB Grain 1 86.8 % 
0.94 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 2 9.6 % 
0.35 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 3 3.6 % 


Name Description Step Temperat Step Time 
Mash In Add 25.42 l of water at 74.0 C 65.6 C 75 min 

---SPARGE PROCESS---
>>>>>>>>>>-RECYCLE FIRST RUNNINGS & VERIFY GRAIN/MLT TEMPS: 22.2 C/22.2 C
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD BOIL CHEMICALS BEFORE FWH
Fly sparge with 34.10 l water at 75.6 C

---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1.045 SG Est OG: 1.050 SG
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
45.00 g Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 32.6 IBUs 
10.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 7.8 IBUs 
22.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 5.6 IBUs 
22.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 7.9 IBUs 
13.96 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 2.3 IBUs 
13.96 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 4.2 IBUs 
13.96 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 5.4 IBUs 
22.00 g Brewbrite (Boil 10.0 mins) Spice 11 - 

Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
12.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop 12 0.0 IBUs 
12.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 m Hop 13 0.0 IBUs 
8.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 14 0.0 IBUs 
8.00 g Centennial [8.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0 Hop 15 0.0 IBUs 
8.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 16 0.0 IBUs 

Dry Hopping (For 20-22 Litre Batches)

8.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
8.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 19 0.0 IBUs
8.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 20 0.0 IBUs
6.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 21 0.0 IBUs
6.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 22 0.0 IBUs


I reckon this will balance nicely


----------



## danestead

storeboughtcheeseburgers said:


> Hi Dano and Co,
> 
> I am brewing this as we speak - just added the first hop addition. Cheers dano for the recipe. I have tweaked it a little bit - mainly the dry hopping and the bittering hops at the start. Added a little simcoe with the magnum as they are around the same AA%.
> 
> I make 44L batches - *everything (except the dry hop)* is for 44 litres, the dry hopping schedule is for 20-22 litre batch. Really looking forward to trying this out . When you see feral brewery stuff is like 60 bucks for 16 beers it makes giving it a crack def worth a go.
> 
> Recipe: Hop Hog Clone TYPE: All Grain
> Style: American IPA
> ---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
> SRM: 14.5 EBC SRM RANGE: 11.8-29.6 EBC
> IBU: 65.9 IBUs Tinseth IBU RANGE: 40.0-70.0 IBUs
> OG: 1.050 SG OG RANGE: 1.056-1.075 SG
> FG: 1.010 SG FG RANGE: 1.010-1.018 SG
> BU:GU: 1.308 Calories: 427.1 kcal/l Est ABV: 5.2 %
> EE%: 72.00 % Batch: 44.00 l Boil: 49.76 l BT: 60 Mins
> ---WATER CHEMISTRY ADDITIONS----------------
> Total Grain Weight: 9.75 kg Total Hops: 224.89 g oz.
> ---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------
> >>>>>>>>>>-ADD WATER CHEMICALS BEFORE GRAINS!!<<<<<<<
> Amt Name Type # %/IBU
> 8.46 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EB Grain 1 86.8 %
> 0.94 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 2 9.6 %
> 0.35 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 3 3.6 %
> Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
> Mash In Add 25.42 l of water at 74.0 C 65.6 C 75 min
> ---SPARGE PROCESS---
> >>>>>>>>>>-RECYCLE FIRST RUNNINGS & VERIFY GRAIN/MLT TEMPS: 22.2 C/22.2 C
> >>>>>>>>>>-ADD BOIL CHEMICALS BEFORE FWH
> Fly sparge with 34.10 l water at 75.6 C
> ---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
> Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1.045 SG Est OG: 1.050 SG
> Amt Name Type # %/IBU
> 45.00 g Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 32.6 IBUs
> 10.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 7.8 IBUs
> 22.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 5.6 IBUs
> 22.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 7.9 IBUs
> 13.96 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 2.3 IBUs
> 13.96 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 4.2 IBUs
> 13.96 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 5.4 IBUs
> 22.00 g Brewbrite (Boil 10.0 mins) Spice 11 -
> Amt Name Type # %/IBU
> 12.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
> 12.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 m Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
> 8.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
> 8.00 g Centennial [8.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0 Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
> 8.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
> 
> Dry Hopping (For 20-22 Litre Batches)
> 
> 8.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
> 8.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 19 0.0 IBUs
> 8.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 20 0.0 IBUs
> 6.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 21 0.0 IBUs
> 6.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 22 0.0 IBUs
> 
> 
> I reckon this will balance nicely


Cool!
Was og 1.050 and 65 Ibus what you intended. Could be quite bitter.


----------



## storeboughtcheeseburgers

danestead said:


> Cool!
> Was og 1.050 and 65 Ibus what you intended. Could be quite bitter.


Point Noted

I'll have to take a gravity reading tonight and see what I achieved and give it a taste. Just put it on ice now.

I have a feeling its going to be pretty nice. While it has a few IBUS, I don't think there is that much noticable difference between a 48 and a 65 IBU, let alone a 55 and a 65 hehe.

Anyway - It is my Mk1 - I haven't tried any of those hops except for cascade and amarillo - so I'm sure even if I haven't hit the nail on the head, it will be a good drop to me .


----------



## storeboughtcheeseburgers

It came out at 1.052 - I had a taste, and I must say - theres a lot going on with this beer! Had a hop hog at the pub a few weeks ago and I can definitely taste the similarity. I purposefully aimed for around 1.050 as thats what I brew most of my beers at.. not really into high ABV tastes - this one came over 2 points so thats pretty sweet - hit my efficiency and then some.

As I said, I usually no chill but this time I did a semi chill. Ice bucketed a ferm and a cube. Prob got a few more IBUs, but this is an Indian Pale, so its meant to be on the bitter side.

Think I've brewed some good stuff - can't wait for it in the bottle in a month .

Thanks for the recipe OP - I think I'll definitely brew it again.


----------



## time01

Made this yesterday, everything went well except the mash. Checked with 15 mins to go and it had dropped to 62, put the burner on, got caught up came back and it was almost boiling. Immediately took it off, removed lid and stirred. So for last 10 mins temp would have been over 80. Are there any serious repercussions from this?


----------



## wereprawn

Maybe. A couple of brews ago i sparged with 90 c water. Ended up with a very "grainy" flavour in the beer. Although this reduced significantly with age.


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## carniebrew

time01 said:


> Made this yesterday, everything went well except the mash. Checked with 15 mins to go and it had dropped to 62, put the burner on, got caught up came back and it was almost boiling. Immediately took it off, removed lid and stirred. So for last 10 mins temp would have been over 80. Are there any serious repercussions from this?


If there were, you should be able to taste them in the wort already. How did it taste?


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## storeboughtcheeseburgers

Mines going great guns - pitched yesterday morning - The wort started around the tape line.. Wondering how long since I should dry hop?


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## time01

haven't tasted it or pitched it yet carniebrew, good point though. will do this later in the week and see how it goes.


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## time01

haven't tasted it or pitched it yet carniebrew, good point though. will do this later in the week and see how it goes.


----------



## n87

Put 50L into the fermenter on Sunday.
maiden use of my new 60L fermenter, ferment freezer, STC, and the first time ive used yeast nutrient...... what could possibly go wrong


----------



## danestead

n87 said:


> Put 50L into the fermenter on Sunday.
> maiden use of my new 60L fermenter, ferment freezer, STC, and the first time ive used yeast nutrient...... what could possibly go wrong


Nice one, I hope it turns out nice for you.

My 3rd revision is/has been judged at the Perth Royal Beer Show yesterday and today. Results come out on Saturday apparently. Obviously its not getting judged as a clone but as an American IPA.

I had half a glass, side by side with a Hop Hog a couple of weeks back and between myself and a friend we decided that it seems like a pretty good IPA, but still needs a bit of work as a clone. The hop flavour was a little too much and the hop flavoir/aroma is still a little different.


----------



## storeboughtcheeseburgers

Cool - I put it down and have been sampling at 1 week in the bottle. I reckon its ace guns. Will have to compare it to the Electric Pale Ale I'm making this weekend to see how it compares.


Wouldn't worry too much about getting the clone perfect - its still a bloody nice beer.

For some reason I didn't get any of the fermentation issues - mine went from 1.052 all the way down to 1.008 - then again, not as strong as the original recipe (purposefuly).


----------



## jimmy_jangles

storeboughtcheeseburgers said:


> Cool - I put it down and have been sampling at 1 week in the bottle. I reckon its ace guns. Will have to compare it to the Electric Pale Ale I'm making this weekend to see how it compares.
> 
> 
> Wouldn't worry too much about getting the clone perfect - its still a bloody nice beer.
> 
> For some reason I didn't get any of the fermentation issues - mine went from 1.052 all the way down to 1.008 - then again, not as strong as the original recipe (purposefuly).


i like the sound of the electric pale ale! is that your recipe or is there a thred about it?


----------



## danestead

jimmy_jangles said:


> i like the sound of the electric pale ale! is that your recipe or is there a thred about it?


http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24947


----------



## danestead

I just got my score from the Perth Royal Beer Show and it was 14.5/20, being a Bronze :beerbang: I'm happy with that however it still needs some work to bring it up another notch.

I noticed that Feral Brewery entered their Hop Hog as an APA rather than an IPA and scored a Silver. It'll be interesting to see my comment sheets and whether or not there are comments along the lines of "would suit APA catergory better" etc. It fits the guidelines for an APA other than the bitterness which is just slightly higher.

I'll wait on those comments and post up the feedback shortly. Hopefully there isn't any process/technique flaws and I can continue to work on the recipe itself.

Cheers.


----------



## jkhlt1210

danestead said:


> I just got my score from the Perth Royal Beer Show and it was 14.5/20, being a Bronze :beerbang: I'm happy with that however it still needs some work to bring it up another notch.
> 
> I noticed that Feral Brewery entered their Hop Hog as an APA rather than an IPA and scored a Silver. It'll be interesting to see my comment sheets and whether or not there are comments along the lines of "would suit APA catergory better" etc. It fits the guidelines for an APA other than the bitterness which is just slightly higher.
> 
> I'll wait on those comments and post up the feedback shortly. Hopefully there isn't any process/technique flaws and I can continue to work on the recipe itself.
> 
> Cheers.


Well done that's awesome! Can't wait to hear more.


----------



## huez

Well done mate.... Next time you look at a hop hog label you will notice that india is actually crossed out


----------



## danestead

Ok so I've received my comment 'sheet' from the perth royal beer show. This will probably sound a bit like a whinge however I'm a little frustrated.

My official score was 14.5 which is the average of the scores the judging panel gave me. The score sheet we receive from the perth royal beer show is not each sheet the judges wrote out, it is only the sheet the panel leader wrote. In my case, I got torn a new one with a total score of 12 and comments of, diacetyl, astringent, thin harsh and alcohol warming. I'm not so worried about getting a score of 12 however it doesn't really paint the full picture of my beer which makes it extremely hard to determine what process and recipe areas need attention. The other judges would have likely scored me up in the 15s to bring the average up to 14.5. Their comments would likely be different to the one I received. If I had all the comment sheets for this beer I could look at the common comments and work on them accordingly. Pretty frustrating when you pay 5 times more to enter the beer than the WASABC competition and you receive far less in terms of feedback, the only reason many brewers enter competitions.

Anywho, they were the comments and I doubt I'll bother entering this particular competition again as it seems it was a waste of my time.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

I would voice your opinion to the PRBS and state exactly your feelings about the comments etc.
If you dont make yourself heard then it was a waste of money.
Nev


----------



## danestead

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> I would voice your opinion to the PRBS and state exactly your feelings about the comments etc.
> If you dont make yourself heard then it was a waste of money.
> Nev


Yeah I've done exactly that Nev. I tried my best to make it not sound like a whinge but in summary asked if they could review their comment sheet policies for next year as in the amateur section of the comp. it is largely a learning experience for us. I'm awaiting a reply.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Good and if you know others get them to do the same.


----------



## n87

That sucks on the feedback Dane.

my one is cc'ing in my new freezer at 0.5C, and is planned to be bottled on Sunday... not looking forward to bottling 50L


----------



## danestead

Ive received another reply from the Perth Royal Beer Show which is quite positive. They have basically said that they will consider giving more sheets next year and they have also provided me with the remainder of my comment sheets.

I got an extra 4 sheets for this beer of which 2 were scored 15 and the other 2 were comments only. My summary of the common comments would be VDK (ill have to look this one up because im unfamiliar with it), possibly needs more body and maybe a little bitter or just a harsh bitterness in general.

Ill have a think about those things and tweak my recipe accordingly however my initial thoughts are to up the mash temp just slightly to improve the body and maybe reduce the sulphate back to 150ppm instead of 250ppm to try reduce the harshness of the bitterness.

Cheers.


----------



## Blind Dog

IIRC, VDK is shorthand for diacetyl.


----------



## Blind Dog

danestead said:


> Ive received another reply from the Perth Royal Beer Show which is quite positive. They have basically said that they will consider giving more sheets next year and they have also provided me with the remainder of my comment sheets.
> 
> I got an extra 4 sheets for this beer of which 2 were scored 15 and the other 2 were comments only. My summary of the common comments would be VDK (ill have to look this one up because im unfamiliar with it), possibly needs more body and maybe a little bitter or just a harsh bitterness in general.
> 
> Ill have a think about those things and tweak my recipe accordingly however my initial thoughts are to up the mash temp just slightly to improve the body and maybe reduce the sulphate back to 150ppm instead of 250ppm to try reduce the harshness of the bitterness.
> 
> Cheers.


Congrats on the score - 14.5/20 average is in 'damn nice beer' territory.

On the bitterness, personally I've had (to my taste anyway) success recently with hoppy apas/aipas dropping the bittering addition way down (between 10% and 25% of total ibus) and moving it to FWH, and upping the other additions to compensate. I no chill so add hops at 15min, flameout and in the cube (wort transferred at 80C) using 30 min boil, 15 mjn boil and 20 min steep in beersmith to calculate. The bitterness is still there, but is softer and more rounded than the apas/aipas i brewed previously.

Odd that a 40min mash at 67 doesn't leave enough body given your grain bill (assuming its the recipe on page 3?). Personally I'd adjust the hopping and salt additions 1st. Also see if you can fit a long mash-out into your schedule as I'm not the only one to find it adds a few points to efficiency, which means I can sparge less which in turn seems to up the malt/body side of the balance just a little without adding to the OG.


----------



## danestead

Blind Dog said:


> Congrats on the score - 14.5/20 average is in 'damn nice beer' territory.
> 
> On the bitterness, personally I've had (to my taste anyway) success recently with hoppy apas/aipas dropping the bittering addition way down (between 10% and 25% of total ibus) and moving it to FWH, and upping the other additions to compensate. I no chill so add hops at 15min, flameout and in the cube (wort transferred at 80C) using 30 min boil, 15 mjn boil and 20 min steep in beersmith to calculate. The bitterness is still there, but is softer and more rounded than the apas/aipas i brewed previously.
> 
> Odd that a 40min mash at 67 doesn't leave enough body given your grain bill (assuming its the recipe on page 3?). Personally I'd adjust the hopping and salt additions 1st. Also see if you can fit a long mash-out into your schedule as I'm not the only one to find it adds a few points to efficiency, which means I can sparge less which in turn seems to up the malt/body side of the balance just a little without adding to the OG.


Cheers for the tips. The recipe that was entered is the top recipe on my original post on page 1 which is version 3. Im not actually sure what is on page 3, maybe it is the same one, maybe not.

Brewing my first Double IPA tomorrow. 320g of hops in a 20L batch. Fingers crossed!


----------



## manticle

VDK is vicinal diketone. Diacetyl is a vdk. The chemical 2-3 pentanedione, which is closely related to diacetyl and has a honey like flavour is another.


----------



## danestead

manticle said:


> VDK is vicinal diketone. Diacetyl is a vdk. The chemical 2-3 pentanedione, which is closely related to diacetyl and has a honey like flavour is another.


Ok thanks Andrew. Im pretty much giving up with US-05 for a while now. I pitch 1 hydrated 11.5g packet which according to a few sources contains 20B cells per gram of yeast on average (as opposed to the minimum stated by fermentis), this calculates to pretty much the exact pitch rate which is considered ideal (21L of 1.057 wort), I temp control to within 0.3 of a degree swing, I pitch on temperature at either 16 or 18 degrees (Ive used both with no luck), I give it a diacetyl rest at 22 degrees once the gravity hits 1.020 and leave it on the yeast at that temperature for a minimum of 3 days after it has hit FG where I then crash chill to 1 degree to drop out the yeast. I am really stumped as to how I could go about fermenting any better. Next time I brew this Hop Hog Clone Ill be using 1272 American Ale 2 with a starter to assure correct pitch rate to see if it helps with my fermenting issues.


----------



## Blind Dog

I think your first question should be whether your beer really has a diacetyl issue. Nothing in this thread indicates that you or anyone else whose tasted the beer (bar the judges) has tasted it. It could be just the bottles sent to the show that were the issue 

Second, I doubt it's the yeast as it's one of the most widely used in HB and by micros and I've never seen anything to suggest it can't clean up diacetyl

Personally I'd look to age for longer on the yeast to ensure the yeast cleans up properly. I normally aim for 7 days, but that's just gut feel not science

There is supposed to be an easy diacetyl test involving taking samples, covering, heating one and the smelling. I think I read it on the Professor Beer website. Never done it though and no idea if the Prof is for real or a crock of shit. Doesn't cost anything but a couple of samples to try it though


----------



## danestead

Yeah blind dog, I can't taste diacetyl in this beer but it is heavily hopped etc so that doesn't surprise me. I'll try a diacetyl force test next time and see how I go.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Get any mention on your water additions or was that a different batch ?
Nev


----------



## n87

I think you should just send it all to me and be done with it 

I bottled mine on Sunday, 3 cases and 4x5L kegs.... it better turn out ok.
samples from the fermenter have been epic though :chug:


----------



## danestead

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> Get any mention on your water additions or was that a different batch ?
> Nev


No mention on water at all and I used the same profile on 2 different beers in that comp. That being said, im dropping the sulphate back on the next batch to see if it gives a less harsh bitterness and or astringency that was reported by a couple of judges.

Back to the diacetyl though, both beers I entered in the show were with us05 and both got reports of diacetyl. On top of that, a batch of LCBA clone I brewed recently with us05 I tasted diacetyl in as it was hitting FG. I left it on the yeast for another 3 days and the diacetyl fell below levels detectable to me.


----------



## manticle

Don't get too worked up about what judging feedback says. It can be very useful but it can also lead you astray.
If they identify an issue that you simply cannot taste, why stress?
Judges get things wrong all the time. They are people, not spectrometers. One influential judge might say loudly 'wow, diacetyl' and they all write it. That's not how it is supposed to happen but that doesn't mean it won't happen.
Read comments, taste, see if you can discern the noted specifics in your beer. If you can, make adjustments.


----------



## BelgoBlacks

Dano,
First of all, well done and congrats on your placing in the beer show. 
Your recipe is a cracker! 
Ive just tasted my effort at your recipe. Pretty good stuff. mines a bit smoother and dare I say a bit creamier given I overshot my mash temps. I reckon I got maybe 67 to 69 in the end.a reminder to calibrate my thermometers. Also I biab and dont modify my water so there's a few things I can work on. But bloody nice beer nevertheless. 
The last difference is that I put the dry hops in a hop sock after main fermentation. I think aroma might be a bit subdued. Might not bother with the sock next time. Might leave it in the washer instead...
That'll be the one & only context i could use the words "sock" and "subdued aroma" in the same sentence...


----------



## danestead

BelgoBlacks said:


> Dano,
> First of all, well done and congrats on your placing in the beer show.
> Your recipe is a cracker!
> Ive just tasted my effort at your recipe. Pretty good stuff. mines a bit smoother and dare I say a bit creamier given I overshot my mash temps. I reckon I got maybe 67 to 69 in the end.a reminder to calibrate my thermometers. Also I biab and dont modify my water so there's a few things I can work on. But bloody nice beer nevertheless.
> The last difference is that I put the dry hops in a hop sock after main fermentation. I think aroma might be a bit subdued. Might not bother with the sock next time. Might leave it in the washer instead...
> That'll be the one & only context i could use the words "sock" and "subdued aroma" in the same sentence...


Good stuff, im glad it turned out well!

I also dry hop in a 'sock' and do notice a subdued aroma because of that method however ive been experimenting with dry hopping for different lengths of time. It makes it a bit easier being able to just pull the sock out when I like.


----------



## brettski

danestead said:


> ...
> 
> _Well here is a substantial update on the tastings of my Hop Hog Clone (Revision 2)._
> 
> _I went back into Devine Cellars yesterday and the 3 gentlemen there had a taster of my beer and comments were along the lines of; "Best homebrew I've had in a while", "If it was a commercial beer I would have thought that it's a good one", "it really has that fruity American IPA nose", "Balanced" and "the taste lingers". The only criticism was that the mid palate could be improved a little. I'm not sure how I'd go about that or what exactly it means but I'll sit on it and see what the case swap guys say. This taster was not had in parallel to a genuine Hop Hog._
> 
> _I had my last taste last night and the keg is now empty because the rest has been bottled up for the WA Xmas in July Case Swap this weekend. My comments and what I am trying to achieve with the 'Revision 3' below are:_
> 
> _More aroma - Adding a whirlpool addition._
> _Very slightly more bitterness - It is well balanced ATM however trying to balance it a little more toward bitterness to give that iconic IPA hit. *The revised target FG should achieve that.*_
> _Adjusting the individual hop amounts - Trying to bring a bit more pineapple and citrus to the beer._
> *Reduce hop flavour slightly - Reduced the 15min addition by 20%*
> _Adjusting the OG and target FG - OG to 1.057 and aiming for a FG of 1.013 (as measured in a genuine Hop Hog this morning) equalling 5.8%_
> _Slight Mash sched. adjustment - Trying to sneak the FG down 1 point._
> *Cleaner ferment - Fermenting at 16 degrees with a 22 degree diacetyl rest once gravity hits 1.020.*
> 
> _Planned recipe below._
> 
> _Enjoy!_
> 
> 
> _*Recipe: Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 3)*
> 
> *Equipment*
> -------------
> 20L Braumeister
> 
> *Recipe Specifics*
> ----------------
> Batch Size (L): 25.00 (post boil)
> Anticipated OG: 1.057
> Anticipated FG: 1.013
> Anticipated EBC: 15.6
> Anticipated IBU: *55* (more than the Feral website's 48 IBU - yes)
> Mash Efficiency: 80 %
> Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
> Alc by Volume: 5.8%
> 
> 
> 
> *Grain/Extract/Sugar*
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 85.8 4.86 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
> 10.0 0.57 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
> 4.2 0.24 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125
> 
> *Hops*
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------_
> 
> _24.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.93 16.4 60 min._
> 
> *13.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 8.9 15 min.*
> *13.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 5.9 15 min.*
> *8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 3.2 15 min.*
> *8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 3.9 15 min.*
> *8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 4.7 15 min.*
> 
> 
> 
> _6.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
> _6.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
> _4.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
> _4.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
> _4.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees._
> 
> 
> _Once the boil is up I will immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's and stop isomerisation, add the whirlpool hop addition then do a whirlpool/stand for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's (even though I based that recipe on 48 as opposed to this one's 58)._
> 
> 
> _13.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 0.0 Dry Hop_
> _13.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 0.0 Dry Hop_
> _8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 0.0 Dry Hop_
> _8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 0.0 Dry Hop_
> _8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 0.0 Dry Hop_
> 
> 
> _Dry hop for 4 days toward the end of fermentation in hop bag then remove (revised procedure).
> 
> 
> *Yeast*
> -----
> Fermentis US-05 American Ale
> 
> *Fermented at 16 degrees. Diacetyl rest at 22 degrees once gravity hits 1.020.*
> 
> *Mash Schedule*
> -------------
> Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 20
> Intermediate Rest Temp: 66 Time: 20_
> _Intermediate Rest Temp: 67 Time: 40
> Saccharification Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
> Mash-out Rest Temp: 76 Time: 10
> Sparge Temp: 76 Time: 0
> 
> *Water*
> -------
> RO/DI water built up to the following profile.
> 
> Calcium 110
> Magnesium 20
> Sodium 15
> Sulphate 250
> Chloride 50_


Hey, decided to give this a go as my first foray into AG and BIAB. Thought I'd try to replicate the hops used by Feral. Like to get your thoughts:

Wort volume: 26.5L
Fermenter volume: 22L

20g Centennial @ 60

10g Amarillo @ 15
10g Cascade @ 15
10g Centennial @ 15

10g Amarillo @ 10
10g Cascade @ 10
10g Centennial @ 10

10g Amarillo @ 5
10g Cascade @ 5
10g Centennial @ 5

20g Amarillo @ Flameout
20g Cascade @ Flameout
20g Centennial @ Flameout

20g Amarillo @ Dry hop
20g Cascade @ Dry hop
20g Centennial @ Dry hop

IBUs ~ 47

Too crazy? Too symmetrical?


----------



## danestead

brettski said:


> Hey, decided to give this a go as my first foray into AG and BIAB. Thought I'd try to replicate the hops used by Feral. Like to get your thoughts:
> 
> Wort volume: 26.5L
> Fermenter volume: 22L
> 
> 20g Centennial @ 60
> 
> 10g Amarillo @ 15
> 10g Cascade @ 15
> 10g Centennial @ 15
> 
> 10g Amarillo @ 10
> 10g Cascade @ 10
> 10g Centennial @ 10
> 
> 10g Amarillo @ 5
> 10g Cascade @ 5
> 10g Centennial @ 5
> 
> 20g Amarillo @ Flameout
> 20g Cascade @ Flameout
> 20g Centennial @ Flameout
> 
> 20g Amarillo @ Dry hop
> 20g Cascade @ Dry hop
> 20g Centennial @ Dry hop
> 
> IBUs ~ 47
> 
> Too crazy? Too symmetrical?


G'day Brettski,

I'm just out of town for a couple of days so give me till Sunday and I'll get back to you. It looks fairly simple to what I plan on brewing for this years WASABC comp.


----------



## danestead

I stand corrected. I managed to find the next recipe I am to brew on another forum I am part of. As you can see, it is fairly similar to what you have suggested so I'd say yours will turn out just fine.

*Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 4)*

A ProMash Brewing Session Report
--------------------------------

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 25.00 Post boil
Total Grain (Kg): 5.74
Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.29
Target FG: 1.014
Anticipated EBC: 14.4
Anticipated IBU: 54.7 Tinseth
Mash Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Alc by Volume: 5.8%


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
87.0 4.99 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
10.0 0.57 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
3.0 0.17 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
35.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.28 38.3 60 min.

12.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 5.5 15 min.
12.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 5.0 15 min.
12.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 5.9 15 min.

17.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.00 0.0 0 min. - 15min whirlpool at 70 deg
17.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.60 0.0 0 min. - 15min whirlpool at 70 deg
17.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.90 0.0 0 min. - 15min whirlpool at 70 deg

25.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 0.0 Dry Hop - Aim for 4 days of dry hop time
25.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 0.0 Dry Hop - Aim for 4 days of dry hop time
25.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 0.0 Dry Hop - Aim for 4 days of dry hop time

Wort is immersion chilled immediately at flame out to 70 degrees for the 15min whirlpool/hopstand and then plate chilled to the fermenter.

Yeast
-----

WYeast 1272 American Ale II with starter for correct pitch rate.

Water Profile
-------------

RO/DI water built to the following proile.

Profile: Dano's American Ale v2
Profile known for:

Calcium(Ca): 110.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 20.0 ppm
Sodium(Na): 15.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 150.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 50.0 ppm

Mash pH: 5.4 - adjusted at start of mash with Lactic acid


Mash Schedule
-------------

Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 0
Acid Rest Temp: 0 Time: 0
Protein Rest Temp: 66 Time: 20
Intermediate Rest Temp: 67 Time: 40
Saccharification Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
Mash-out Rest Temp: 76 Time: 10
Sparge Temp: 0 Time: 0


Fermentation Specifics
----------------------

Pitched From: Starter
Primary Temperature: 18 degrees C until 1.020 gravity and then 22 degree diacetyl rest. Leave the beer on the yeast for minimum 3 days once FG is reached then chill to 1 deg for clarification.


----------



## brettski

That looks amazing mate! I've decided to scale down the Munich and Caramunich a touch. I'll report back on progress...


----------



## brettski

That looks amazing mate! I've decided to scale down the Munich and Caramunich a touch. I'll report back on progress...


----------



## Brewhart

Great recipe Danestead. Just finishing the first of 2 kegs I brewed a month ago. Did a side by side comparison with the real thing last night flavour was pretty close. 



The clone is on the right


----------



## danestead

I've just kegged a single hop version of the recipe at post #136 using Comet hops.

The Comet Hop Hog has turned out well. It has cleared nicely with the 1272 and no additional filtering/gelatine etc etc (cheating). I'm pretty impressed at this stage with what Comet has brought to the table. This one started a few points low (1.055) so sits in that middle space of a strong APA and a weak AIPA. I plan on entering it in both categories in the WASABC. I replaced all but the bittering addition with Comet and made it to 52 IBU's rather than 55.


----------



## mattyg8

brettski said:


> Hey, decided to give this a go as my first foray into AG and BIAB. Thought I'd try to replicate the hops used by Feral. Like to get your thoughts:
> 
> Wort volume: 26.5L
> Fermenter volume: 22L
> 
> 20g Centennial @ 60
> 
> 10g Amarillo @ 15
> 10g Cascade @ 15
> 10g Centennial @ 15
> 
> 10g Amarillo @ 10
> 10g Cascade @ 10
> 10g Centennial @ 10
> 
> 10g Amarillo @ 5
> 10g Cascade @ 5
> 10g Centennial @ 5
> 
> 20g Amarillo @ Flameout
> 20g Cascade @ Flameout
> 20g Centennial @ Flameout
> 
> 20g Amarillo @ Dry hop
> 20g Cascade @ Dry hop
> 20g Centennial @ Dry hop
> 
> IBUs ~ 47
> 
> Too crazy? Too symmetrical?


Hey how did this go? Im planning on doing my second BIAB soon and would like to try a Feral Hop hog clone


----------



## brettski

mattyg8 said:


> Hey how did this go? Im planning on doing my second BIAB soon and would like to try a Feral Hop hog clone


Hey,
How did it go, well okay I guess...
Definitely very fruity and similar to the real deal. The catch is, this was the first batch I did with no chill. I wasn't aware at the time, but this isn't necessarily the best idea in such a hoppy beer as there is a lot of hop material exposed too long in the scolding hot environment of the cube. A lot of hop particles and yeast seemed to still be in suspension after the two weeks of fermentation.
The final product came out too bitter and murky, I'm just getting around to drinking them now after letting them mellow out. Until I get an immersion chiller, I've been brewing low IBU stouts and brown ales.

TL;DR: I think this is a good recipe, just don't be no chillin' with so much hops


----------



## danestead

brettski said:


> Hey,
> How did it go, well okay I guess...
> Definitely very fruity and similar to the real deal. The catch is, this was the first batch I did with no chill. I wasn't aware at the time, but this isn't necessarily the best idea in such a hoppy beer as there is a lot of hop material exposed too long in the scolding hot environment of the cube. A lot of hop particles and yeast seemed to still be in suspension after the two weeks of fermentation.
> The final product came out too bitter and murky, I'm just getting around to drinking them now after letting them mellow out. Until I get an immersion chiller, I've been brewing low IBU stouts and brown ales.
> 
> TL;DR: I think this is a good recipe, just don't be no chillin' with so much hops


It's good to see that you can see some positives in your brew. Best of luck for next time.

Did you do a whirlpool for 10 or 15 mins after flame out before draining the wort into your no chill vessel? That should solve the issue of trub making it to the fermenter. I don't no chill so am not sure if people still whirlpool or not but I know that on my system, the wort will still be at 95 degrees after a 10 min whirlpool so I can't see any issues with the sanitation side of things draining it in at that temp.

I've just entered a Comet hop version of my latest recipe into the Perth Royal Beer Show. I entered it as an APA as it will be about 6 months old by the time it is judged in July so the aroma and bitterness would have faded a bit I think. Fingers crossed for that. I'm also only a couple of months off brewing another version using the same hops as you did to enter in the WASABC comp. later in the year. Fingers crossed for improved scores over last year


----------



## brettski

danestead said:


> It's good to see that you can see some positives in your brew. Best of luck for next time.
> 
> Did you do a whirlpool for 10 or 15 mins after flame out before draining the wort into your no chill vessel? That should solve the issue of trub making it to the fermenter. I don't no chill so am not sure if people still whirlpool or not but I know that on my system, the wort will still be at 95 degrees after a 10 min whirlpool so I can't see any issues with the sanitation side of things draining it in at that temp.
> 
> I've just entered a Comet hop version of my latest recipe into the Perth Royal Beer Show. I entered it as an APA as it will be about 6 months old by the time it is judged in July so the aroma and bitterness would have faded a bit I think. Fingers crossed for that. I'm also only a couple of months off brewing another version using the same hops as you did to enter in the WASABC comp. later in the year. Fingers crossed for improved scores over last year


If my memory serves me, I did do a 10 minute flameout but no whirlpool. I've got a thermowell in my brewpot and it makes it really hard to whirlpool.
Next time, changes I'll make will be:

- Immersion chiller
- Irish moss
- Longer wait before bottling after batch priming


----------



## mattyg8

So whats a good hop schedule for this regarding no chill and whirlpool


----------



## danestead

mattyg8 said:


> So whats a good hop schedule for this regarding no chill and whirlpool


I don't no chill but to get your bitterness right you will need to take into consideration whether you are letting you wort chill to ambient out in the open, whether you are putting it in a fridge or whether you are throwing it in a pool.

As for the later additions, if I were to no chill I'd be putting the 15min addition in at flameout, the whirlpool addition as a hop tea into the fermenter at fermenting time or skipping that step and obviously still using the dry addition dry.

I think there is an extract hop hog thread doing the rounds which no chills. That may give you a better idea.


----------



## mattyg8

Ill have to check it out


----------



## Tobes15

Dano,
tried your recipe 3 and really happy with it even though I stuffed some things up. My mash temps were very sloppy and I overshot the diacety rest to 28C.
Anyway, in comparing my brew after 3 weeks in bottle to the real thing:
mine was a darker reddish colour - not unhappy about this
my head is very fluffy - protein? - have since bought a plate chiller and a pump so I can do a proper whirlpool
my aroma is a bit flat in comparison
the real Hop Hog has a finer bead (bubbles)
However I cant tell the diff in the taste

All in all, your recipe is brilliant. Thanks heaps. Doing another soon.
Tobes


----------



## danestead

Tobes15 said:


> Dano,
> tried your recipe 3 and really happy with it even though I stuffed some things up. My mash temps were very sloppy and I overshot the diacety rest to 28C.
> Anyway, in comparing my brew after 3 weeks in bottle to the real thing:
> mine was a darker reddish colour - not unhappy about this
> my head is very fluffy - protein? - have since bought a plate chiller and a pump so I can do a proper whirlpool
> my aroma is a bit flat in comparison
> the real Hop Hog has a finer bead (bubbles)
> However I cant tell the diff in the taste
> 
> All in all, your recipe is brilliant. Thanks heaps. Doing another soon.
> Tobes


Excellent Tobes. Glad you enjoyed it!

Your comments seem pretty close to my observations based on recipe #3 also. I am due to brew recipe #4 in about a month and comparatively, this recipe has double the hops in the whirlpool and 50% more dry hops. That one is going in the WASABC comp. so I really hope it comes up a treat.

I've been on a bit of a German craze the last 3 or 4 months (munich dunkel twice, vienna lager and dunkelweizen) and although I do really enjoy those styles, AIPA's still stand out as my favourite by a long shot. Can't wait to get some ales on tap!


----------



## danestead

Just a bit of an update. I'm brewing again in about a month for the WASABC competition and have made some minor adjustments (as you tend to do when you over think things over time) to the recipe I stated in post #136.

IBU's back to 52, Caramunich II back to 2.5% and less sulphate and no magnesium added to the water profile to try and improve a minerally astringency that I've had a comment about.


Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 4)

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 25.00 Post boil
Total Grain (Kg): 5.88
Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.30
Anticipated EBC: 14.1
Anticipated IBU: 52.5 Tinseth
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Target FG: 1.014

Alc by Volume: 5.8%


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
87.5 5.15 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
10.0 0.59 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
2.5 0.15 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
33.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.28 36.1 60 min.
12.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 5.5 15 min.
12.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 5.0 15 min.
12.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 5.9 15 min.

17.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.00 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees.
17.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.60 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees.
17.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.90 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees.

25.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 0.0 Dry Hop - Aim for 4 days of dry hop time
25.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 0.0 Dry Hop - Aim for 4 days of dry hop time
25.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 0.0 Dry Hop - Aim for 4 days of dry hop time

Wort is immersion chilled immediately at flame out to 70 degrees for the 15min whirlpool/hopstand and then plate chilled to the fermenter.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1272 American Ale II with starter for correct pitch rate.


Water Profile
-------------

RO/DI water built to the following proile.

Profile: Dano's American Ale v3

Calcium(Ca): 110.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 0.0 ppm
Sodium(Na): 15.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 100.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 50.0 ppm


Mash Schedule
-------------

Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 0
Intermediate Rest Temp: 66 Time: 20
Intermediate Rest Temp: 67 Time: 40
Intermediate Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
Mash-out Rest Temp: 76 Time: 10
Sparge Temp: 76 Time: 0


Fermentation Specifics
----------------------

Pitched From: Starter
Primary Temperature: 18 degrees C until 1.020 gravity and then 22 degree diacetyl rest. Leave the beer on the yeast for minimum 3 days once FG is reached then chill to 1 deg for clarification.


----------



## Moad

This one drinking yet? Haven't done an aipa for a long time and am ready to move on from the browns stouts and porters of winter


----------



## danestead

I am dry hopping it this afternoon so will have it in the keg in about a week! Cant wait!


----------



## Moad

Following...please report back! Cheers mate


----------



## bruiserbbq

My attempt at your #4 recipe Dano. I got the colour right...but not quite as good as the real thing. 
Mine is not as sweat or floral. This was only my second go at all grain (BIAB) so I made a few mistakes.
But I'm still pleased with the result. Will certainly be brewing this again.....as soon as I empty the keg!
Thanks for the recipe Dano.....much appreciated.

Cheers Mark


----------



## danestead

Wow that colour is spot on isnt it!

My number 4 is crash chilling atm so should have it in the keg for a taster in a week or 2.


----------



## mattyg8

I also did this one with slight modification as couldn't get any magnum at the time, its currently fermenting and will be dry hopping Saturday! Cant wait.


----------



## bruiserbbq

I forgot to mention I FWH with the Magnum pellets. The bitterness is about right....but doesn't have the aroma or the in your face hops like the real deal.

I thought I had blown it when I added the remainder of the hops into the keg....I tried it the next day.....and it tasted like orange/fruit juice....I thought oh no!
But it settled down after a week....thank goodness!

I must learn to have a bit more patience before sampling!

Cheers Mark


----------



## purple-lazy

I had a go at a version of this on the weekend. Fermentation is rapidly progressing to the point where I need to decide on my dry hopping method. This will be my first time dry hopping.

If you're about Danestead I was wondering if the four day contact time you recommend was at fermentation temps or during cold crash?

I'd also love to hear an update on your number 4 brew if there's any progress there?

Cheers and thanks for the recipe.


----------



## danestead

purple-lazy said:


> I had a go at a version of this on the weekend. Fermentation is rapidly progressing to the point where I need to decide on my dry hopping method. This will be my first time dry hopping.
> 
> If you're about Danestead I was wondering if the four day contact time you recommend was at fermentation temps or during cold crash?
> 
> I'd also love to hear an update on your number 4 brew if there's any progress there?
> 
> Cheers and thanks for the recipe.


The 4 day contact time is at fermentation temp. I've dry hopped at cold temps. before however I didnt get much aroma out of it. The warmer temps. seem to extract those aroma oils much quicker than at a colder temp. I've gone away from dry hopping in a bag now because it is a pain in the ass and I wasn't getting great aroma from that technique. Probably because the hops were not able to spread out in the fermenter as well. So I try to dry hop just before fermentation has finished.

Number 4 is in the keg but I had a couple of issues with that one. The 1272 yeast decided to attenuate right down to 1.010 rather than the 1.014 which it had in the past which has left the beer too dry. I've also had issues with my brewing water which is leading to an astringency. I've decided to scrap the whole RO/DI water with salts thing, and try just using proportions of RO and tap water to see if that solves the astringency problem. So an over attenuated and astringent beer. Not so flash. That beer was judged at the WASABC on the weekend so I'll have the comment sheets soon but I'm not expecting much in the way of scores unfortunately. I should really chill that keg again and compare it to a real Hop Hog to see if the hopping etc is on the right track. Try take the good out of what I've brewed you know.

The good news for you is I think the issues are with my process rather than the recipe, as it's turned out quite nice in past batches.

Let me know how you go.


----------



## purple-lazy

Cheers mate. Thanks for the feed back. I'll probably dry hop tonight then by adding directly to the fermenter, and rack off in 4 days or so.

Sorry to hear about your water issues. I treated mine for the first time with this brew also. Too early to tell yet how it's going to work out, but to be honest I'll be happy if I get something that's reasonably drinkable.


----------



## purple-lazy

Last night I racked the beer into a secondary fermenter to get it out of contact with the dry hops (25g/25g/25g) that I'd added directly to the fermenter. It had been in contact for 4 days at ~23 degrees and 1 day about ~3 degrees.

I also had a lot of trub, yeast and hop matter in the bottom of the fermenter that I wanted to get it clear from, in order to get the most benefit (clarity wise) from cold conditioning before bottling.

Samples are starting to taste better now there's not as much hop matter (and trub/yeast etc) suspended in the beer, however it doesn't have that real in your face hop aroma or flavour that Hop Hog or other IPAs have.

I was wondering if this could be due to the relatively low level of carbonation at the moment, not releasing the hop aromas from the beer?

The hop aroma could also be masked a bit by the fruity aroma of the yeast I used, Wyeast 1099 Whitbread Ale. I probably should have gone with a more neutral yeast.

I'm considering adding more dry hops (in a bag this time) to the secondary while cold conditioning until bottling in 5 days or so. It probably couldn't hurt right? Unless I can expect a massive increase in hop aroma once fully carbonated?


----------



## antiphile

You've obviously put a huge amount of thought, effort and experience into this one, Danestead. So please don't mistake any of my suggestions for criticism; I'd rather you'd consider it thinking out loud.

On the topic of the judges comments about the "harsh bitterness", I'm wondering if you might have considered FWH with the magnum. I've only done it a few times (and never tried a true side by side comparison), but I _think_ it takes the harshness of the bittering as reported by others who know better.

Take that suggestion for free, and remember it's worth is what you paid for it!


----------



## danestead

purple-lazy said:


> Last night I racked the beer into a secondary fermenter to get it out of contact with the dry hops (25g/25g/25g) that I'd added directly to the fermenter. It had been in contact for 4 days at ~23 degrees and 1 day about ~3 degrees.
> 
> I also had a lot of trub, yeast and hop matter in the bottom of the fermenter that I wanted to get it clear from, in order to get the most benefit (clarity wise) from cold conditioning before bottling.
> 
> Samples are starting to taste better now there's not as much hop matter (and trub/yeast etc) suspended in the beer, however it doesn't have that real in your face hop aroma or flavour that Hop Hog or other IPAs have.
> 
> I was wondering if this could be due to the relatively low level of carbonation at the moment, not releasing the hop aromas from the beer?
> 
> The hop aroma could also be masked a bit by the fruity aroma of the yeast I used, Wyeast 1099 Whitbread Ale. I probably should have gone with a more neutral yeast.
> 
> I'm considering adding more dry hops (in a bag this time) to the secondary while cold conditioning until bottling in 5 days or so. It probably couldn't hurt right? Unless I can expect a massive increase in hop aroma once fully carbonated?


It's interesting you mention that the hop flavour is low compared to a real hop hog as in the last 2 batches, myself and a friend thought my version had too much hop flavour. That is why the latest recipe has a reduced 15 min addition.

As for the aroma, I agree. I recently brewed an Amber ale with citra hops and the aroma was better than the hop hog, even though the Amber ale had less dry hops and no whirlpool addition. This hop hog recipe may need a revision since I've gotten rid of the citra to bring the aroma up somewhat because I think different hops can have quite a difference in their aroma intensity. All the hops I used in the hop hog, plus the citra, were the current season hops from Hops Direct.

I'm also starting to think that I may need to go down the hop back route to chase more aroma. I also think I may change the whirlpool addition to a flameout or 1 min addition because I'm not entirely convinced on the whirlpool as yet (although ive heard others reporting success ).

This hop hog recipe already has heaps of aroma hops in it but they don't seem to be doing the best job so I think trying different techniques might be the answer.

I've had some great double Ipas recently which just burst with aroma which has me stumped as to how they achieve it. Maybe they dump 10g/L or something in as dry hops with a short contact time but I'm not sure if that's commercially viable even when you pay upwards of $10 a bottle. I'll try hassle the guys at feral or nail to find out their techniques and hopping rates and report back.

Cheers.


----------



## danestead

antiphile said:



> You've obviously put a huge amount of thought, effort and experience into this one, Danestead. So please don't mistake any of my suggestions for criticism; I'd rather you'd consider it thinking out loud.
> 
> On the topic of the judges comments about the "harsh bitterness", I'm wondering if you might have considered FWH with the magnum. I've only done it a few times (and never tried a true side by side comparison), but I _think_ it takes the harshness of the bittering as reported by others who know better.
> 
> Take that suggestion for free, and remember it's worth is what you paid for it!


Cheers for the suggestion. I haven't played around with fwh yet.

I actually think it's my water causing the harshness and I'm in the process of using different water treatment techniques to fix that. So far, on a kölsch, my new water seems to have fixed the problem. I won't be able to report on whether it's worked for sure until I try it in a bitter beer though.


----------



## purple-lazy

danestead said:


> It's interesting you mention that the hop flavour is low compared to a real hop hog as in the last 2 batches, myself and a friend thought my version had too much hop flavour. That is why the latest recipe has a reduced 15 min addition.


Hey danestead. Thanks for the feedback. Don't rely on me for any reliable input regarding the recipe. I'm only comparing green beer with a half remembered Hop Hog tasting months ago. Plus I'm a nub with no palate. Any shortcomings with my current brew are entirely of my own making.

I do happen to have just about the right amount of hops sitting in the freezer for a second round of dry hopping however, so I think it's a worthwhile experiment in search of that hop aroma.


----------



## danestead

purple-lazy said:


> Hey danestead. Thanks for the feedback. Don't rely on me for any reliable input regarding the recipe. I'm only comparing green beer with a half remembered Hop Hog tasting months ago. Plus I'm a nub with no palate. Any shortcomings with my current brew are entirely of my own making.
> 
> I do happen to have just about the right amount of hops sitting in the freezer for a second round of dry hopping however, so I think it's a worthwhile experiment in search of that hop aroma.


Go for the 2nd dry hop man! Dry hops for the win!


----------



## danestead

Those in the know say to double my dry hop and I should have better luck. So up to 150g for me next time :super:


----------



## purple-lazy

danestead said:


> Those in the know say to double my dry hop and I should have better luck. So up to 150g for me next time :super:


Nice. Glad you have the connections.

I ended up adding another 25g/25g/25g Tuesday night. I tried a sample this morning and it certainly has kicked up the hop flavour, so much so I was worried I may have overdone it. Well for a second anyway.It has quite a viscous mouth feel and prominent hop flavour. I'm not sure it's balanced, but I like it. Plus it's still early days.

The aroma still seems subdued however, but I think this could be due to a number of factors, including my malt and yeast choices. I get a sweet fruity smell more than anything.

I'm really interested to see what difference carbonation, bottling and and a bit of time will make.


----------



## bruiserbbq

I brewed (BIAB....20 litre into fermenter) another one of Dano's #4 .....but this time I Vorlauf the Caramunich and only added hops on flameout.

180g at flame out.....then another 180g once wort was cooled down below 80c

So a fair whack of hops....but I have no idea if it will be bitter or not....fingers crossed!

Cheers Mark


----------



## danestead

bruiserbbq said:


> I brewed (BIAB....20 litre into fermenter) another one of Dano's #4 .....but this time I Vorlauf the Caramunich and only added hops on flameout.
> 
> 180g at flame out.....then another 180g once wort was cooled down below 80c
> 
> So a fair whack of hops....but I have no idea if it will be bitter or not....fingers crossed!
> 
> Cheers Mark


Excellent. Sounds great! Make sure you report back with your findings!


----------



## danestead

After having a taste of version #4, personally I think it needs more aroma, has a pretty bad astringency and possibly a tad dry. Other than that, I think it's where I want it. The judges in the WASABC mentioned more aroma needed, astringency, too many esters, acetaldehyde and hop flavour too low.

The updated recipe to be brewed next (version #5) has doubled the 0 minute and dry hopping amounts, uses tap water rather than RO/DI water made up with salts to fix the astringency problems and uses wy1056 to try drop the esters that the judges are noticing (I can't notice them but the likelyhood is that I just think that is the hops giving those aromas). I've left the 15 minute flavour hops the same as I think it closely reflects that of the Feral Hop Hog. I've also very slightly changed the mash schedule to a 67 degree rest.

With any luck, this will be the end of the tweaking.

Enjoy, and if you brew it, let me know how it turns out.

:icon_cheers:


*[SIZE=10.5pt]Recipe: Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 5)[/SIZE]*

*[SIZE=10.5pt]Equipment[/SIZE]*
_[SIZE=10.5pt]-------------
20L Braumeister[/SIZE]_

*[SIZE=10.5pt]Recipe Specifics[/SIZE]*
[SIZE=10.5pt]----------------[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Batch Size (L): 26.00 Post Boil[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Total Grain (Kg): 6.12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.30[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Target FG: 1.014[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Anticipated EBC: 14.1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Anticipated IBU: 49.1 Tinseth[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Brewhouse Efficiency: 78 %[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Alc by Volume: 5.8%[/SIZE]

*[SIZE=10.5pt]Grain/Extract/Sugar[/SIZE]*

[SIZE=10.5pt] % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] 87.5 5.35 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] 10.0 0.61 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] 2.5 0.15 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125[/SIZE]

*[SIZE=10.5pt]Hops[/SIZE]*

[SIZE=10.5pt] Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] 30.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.59 32.5 60 min.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] 15.00 g. Amarillo Pellet 7.79 5.9 15 min.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] 15.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.68 4.3 15 min.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] 15.00 g. Centennial Pellet 8.30 6.3 15 min.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] 36.40 g. Amarillo Pellet 7.79 0.0 0 min.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] 36.40 g. Cascade Pellet 5.68 0.0 0 min.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] 36.40 g. Centennial Pellet 8.30 0.0 0 min.[/SIZE]

_[SIZE=10.5pt]Once the boil is up and the 0 minute hops are added, I immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's and stop isomerisation, then do a whirlpool for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's.[/SIZE]_

[SIZE=10.5pt] 50.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.68 0.0 Dry Hop[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] 50.00 g. Centennial Pellet 8.30 0.0 Dry Hop[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] 50.00 g. Amarillo Pellet 7.79 0.0 Dry Hop[/SIZE]

_[SIZE=10.5pt]Dry hop for approximately 4 days toward the end of fermentation.[/SIZE]_

*[SIZE=10.5pt]Yeast[/SIZE]*
[SIZE=10.5pt]-----[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Starter of _Fermentis US-05 American Ale, Wyeast 1056 or White Labs 001._[/SIZE]
_[SIZE=10.5pt]Fermented at 18 degrees. Diacetyl rest at 22 degrees once gravity hits 1.020.[/SIZE]_

*[SIZE=10.5pt]Mash Schedule[/SIZE]*
[SIZE=10.5pt]-------------[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 0[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Saccharification Rest Temp: 67 Time: 60[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Additional Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Mash-out Rest Temp: 76 Time: 10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Sparge Temp: 76 Time: 0[/SIZE]

*[SIZE=10.5pt]Water[/SIZE]*
[SIZE=10.5pt]-------
Perth tap water put through a sediment and carbon filter.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Mash PH adjusted to 5.4 (room temp.) with Lactic Acid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]My initial attempts used RO/DI water built to a specific profile with salts but it appears this was causing an astringency.[/SIZE]


----------



## Dan Pratt

danestead said:


> _[SIZE=10.5pt]Once the boil is up and the 0 minute hops are added, I immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's and stop isomerisation, then do a whirlpool for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's.[/SIZE]_


Hi Dano, 

If you want more aroma then adjust this part mentioned above.

Start the immersion chilller at end of boil and drop below 85c ofcourse target 70c if your used to that...... then add the hops. But leave them to hop-stand for 10mins then whirlpool and for another 10 and then start your transfer. You will get all the oils at the lower temp and get the ibus locked in from the boil. 

From experience I hop stand for 10mins and whirlpool for 5-10mins more while getting FV ready and haven't noticed the IBU to be much higher than chilling immediately. this is with both pale ale and ipa's


----------



## danestead

Pratty1 said:


> Hi Dano,
> 
> If you want more aroma then adjust this part mentioned above.
> 
> Start the immersion chilller at end of boil and drop below 85c ofcourse target 70c if your used to that...... then add the hops. But leave them to hop-stand for 10mins then whirlpool and for another 10 and then start your transfer. You will get all the oils at the lower temp and get the ibus locked in from the boil.
> 
> From experience I hop stand for 10mins and whirlpool for 5-10mins more while getting FV ready and haven't noticed the IBU to be much higher than chilling immediately. this is with both pale ale and ipa's


Yeah that's what I used to do but I'm not sure if it was working as well as I'd hoped so I'm trying it the old way again to see if there's an improvement or not. It only takes me 2 mins to chill to 70 degrees btw


----------



## technobabble66

Jebus, Dano ... ~ 340g of hops into a 26L batch!!! 

You'd wanna be getting some gargantuan aroma and flavour for that amount! And it's still not enough?!

Just tossing a few ideas around. This may all be silly speculation, but ....
If you're still not getting enough aroma, have you considered some other techniques rather than just more hops? - e.g.: doing a double dry hop schedule, using a hop-back during bottling/kegging, etc?

I believe for the Pliny the Elder, Vinnie C (as per his clone estimation for his famous beer) dry-hops his beer twice for 2 different effects. The first main one is just after fermentation is finished, while the beer is still at 18-20°C and the yeast is still in suspension. I believe some of the US brewers have found the (still slightly active) yeast seems to interact with the hops oils to perhaps alter the nature of the aromas produced, and also to maybe help "fix" the aroma element into the beer. Or rather, this is what seems to happen at the warmer temps, so the guess was it was due to an interaction with the yeast; maybe it's just a better extraction, etc. 
However, this also involves a loss of aroma as the yeast drops out, carrying some of the hoppy goodness with it. So he does a second round a week or so later, maybe after CC-ing or the day the CC-ing drop starts (?), whereby the yeast has now dropped out and the oils merely go directly into solution.

Another strategy could be to stick with the single dry hop, but wait until the yeast has _fully_ dropped out. 
Fwiw, the effect i mentioned above that some US brewers reported on - that dry-hopping at warm temps gives a different/better effect - may be more from temp rather than the yeast. Meaning that you could wait for the yeast to drop out (maybe via a quick 3-4 day CC, then raise temp a bit) then hit it with the dry hops at warmer temps?

Otherwise, some of the bigger aroma beers i've had i believe use a hop-back during packaging. Can you rig that up? If not, could you dry hop straight into the Bulk Priming vessel prior to bottling, leave for an hour or two with occasional swirling, then bottle? (You'd need to have a filter of some sort, obviously.) If you keg, then the other option is keg-hopping.

A final option could be to use a Hops Shot, as per the hopdealzaustralia website (no affiliation, etc). Should crank up the hops aroma massively, but will be their generic blend rather than the specific HH hops combo.


One other minor point, are we sure FB use US-05 in HH? Could it be worth giving 1272 a shot?


----------



## danestead

Gday mate, cheers for your input. It all helps knowing other techniques that people use. Hopefully the below info will give you an insight into why I do things the way I do.




technobabble66 said:


> Jebus, Dano ... ~ 340g of hops into a 26L batch!!!
> 
> You'd wanna be getting some gargantuan aroma and flavour for that amount! And it's still not enough?!


The new recipe has about 340g of hops, the old recipe had about 200g which was not giving me and others the aroma we wanted. I too damn hope 340g is enough! My next planned IIPA actually has 500g!



> Just tossing a few ideas around. This may all be silly speculation, but ....
> If you're still not getting enough aroma, have you considered some other techniques rather than just more hops? - e.g.: doing a double dry hop schedule, using a hop-back during bottling/kegging, etc?


I have done a double dry hop before in an IIPA and may do the 150g dry hop in 2 halves. The reason I dry hop just before fermentation is finished is to hope that any oxygen introduced when dry hopping is used up by the active yeast. I have dry hopped after FG has been reached before with no perceived oxidation effects but I guess it's whether you want to take that risk or not. I've not done any side by side experiments so it's a bit harder to know what works best or if it makes a difference at all.

If I had a blichmann hop rocket or similar I would definitely use it but rather than putting $10 worth of flowers in that, I'd rather put $10 extra worth of pellets in my brew. It is inevitable I'll end up with a hop rocket and the result is likely slightly different however I'm just working with what I've got at the moment.






> I believe for the Pliny the Elder, Vinnie C (as per his clone estimation for his famous beer) dry-hops his beer twice for 2 different effects. The first main one is just after fermentation is finished, while the beer is still at 18-20°C and the yeast is still in suspension. I believe some of the US brewers have found the (still slightly active) yeast seems to interact with the hops oils to perhaps alter the nature of the aromas produced, and also to maybe help "fix" the aroma element into the beer. Or rather, this is what seems to happen at the warmer temps, so the guess was it was due to an interaction with the yeast; maybe it's just a better extraction, etc.
> However, this also involves a loss of aroma as the yeast drops out, carrying some of the hoppy goodness with it. So he does a second round a week or so later, maybe after CC-ing or the day the CC-ing drop starts (?), whereby the yeast has now dropped out and the oils merely go directly into solution.




I've dry hopped whilst cold conditioning before and it was a waste of hops. I got nowhere near the aroma I get from a warm dry hop and recently I chatted with a friend and he finds that dry hopping cold results in extracting more of the vegetal character of the hop I don't want.





> Another strategy could be to stick with the single dry hop, but wait until the yeast has fully dropped out.
> Fwiw, the effect i mentioned above that some US brewers reported on - that dry-hopping at warm temps gives a different/better effect - may be more from temp rather than the yeast. Meaning that you could wait for the yeast to drop out (maybe via a quick 3-4 day CC, then raise temp a bit) then hit it with the dry hops at warmer temps?



Too much faffing about for me although it may get better efficiency out of the hops. I'd rather just use more hops than spend the extra days with the beer in the fermenter.




> Otherwise, some of the bigger aroma beers i've had i believe use a hop-back during packaging. Can you rig that up? If not, could you dry hop straight into the Bulk Priming vessel prior to bottling, leave for an hour or two with occasional swirling, then bottle? (You'd need to have a filter of some sort, obviously.) If you keg, then the other option is keg-hopping.



An hour or two dry hopping prior to kegging would not make much difference I don't think. A day or 2 would be the minimum to get a good increase in aroma I would have thought. You'd end up having to filter the hops out like you said which I don't have.





> A final option could be to use a Hops Shot, as per the hopdealzaustralia website (no affiliation, etc). Should crank up the hops aroma massively, but will be their generic blend rather than the specific HH hops combo.



A hop shot would probably work, yes, if you could get the hops you wanted but isn't a hop shot just oils extracted from hops? That's what we are doing by adding pellets to the fermenter.




> One other minor point, are we sure FB use US-05 in HH? Could it be worth giving 1272 a shot?



I am 90% sure Feral use dry yeast in their Hop Hog. Whether it's US05 or not, I don't know. I gave away using US05 a year ago due to diacetyl problems. I used wy1272 for the last year in place of US05 which has fixed the diacetyl problems in competitions. I have now got reports of esters in my wy1272 beers so I'm going to go to wy1056 and see how that goes.

I've spoken to both Will at Feral and I think it was Red at Pirate Life. Will suggested doubling my dry hops and Red also said they use lots of dry hops in their beers. His guess on the spot was 5g/L or so in their beers. I mentioned to him that it must cost a lot to add that amount of hops to their beers and he agreed and basically said it's just what you need to do to make a beer like that. It's just the cost of doing business I guess. I've also read that Little Creatures use at least 3-5g/L of dry hop. http://byo.com/issues/item/1702-imperial-ipa-style-profile suggests 340-450g of hops in an IIPA. My Hop Hog Clone is only an IPA, but I want it rocking.

Most of what I do with my beers is based on more traditional or tried and true techniques that are proven to work, and I leave most of the experimentation to others. I also work with the system I have to get the best that I feel I can get out of it. Also, some of the ways I do things is because I think the risk of infection outweighs the benefit.

Keep the suggestions coming.

Cheers :beerbang:


----------



## N3MIS15

@danstead I recently brewed a similar version to your v5 recipe with the addition of chinook. 


5.10 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.9 EBC) Grain 1 87.3 % 
0.59 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) Grain 2 10.1 % 
0.15 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 3 2.6 % 
20.00 g Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 29.4 IBUs 
10.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 2.7 IBUs 
10.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 4.9 IBUs 
10.00 g Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 6.3 IBUs 
10.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 6.0 IBUs 
15.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs 
15.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs 
15.00 g Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs 
15.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 12 0.0 IBUs 
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 13 - 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 14 - 
20.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs 
20.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs 

I used mosaic only because I didn't have enough amarillo on hand. Drinking now and goes down a treat (but not enough aroma).

FWIW here is the next version I plan on trying (will brew in a couple weeks when ferm fridge is free). I've pretty much just doubled the aroma additions.

5.10 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.9 EBC) Grain 1 87.3 % 
0.59 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) Grain 2 10.1 % 
0.15 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 3 2.6 % 
20.00 g Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 30.6 IBUs 
10.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 4.7 IBUs 
10.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 2.8 IBUs 
10.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 5.1 IBUs 
10.00 g Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 6.6 IBUs 
30.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs 
30.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs 
30.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs 
30.00 g Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 12 0.0 IBUs 
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 13 - 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 14 - 
40.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs 
40.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs


----------



## Spookism

Hey guys,

I'm pretty new to all this and I am interested in having a go at this brew...
I am using a GrainFather and have only brewed a couple of brews so far.
Everyone of those has used a single step mash up until mash out.

So if I am reading this correctly...



> *Mash Schedule*
> -------------
> Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 20
> Intermediate Rest Temp: 67 Time: 60
> Saccharification Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
> Mash-out Rest Temp: 78 Time: 10
> Sparge Temp: 78 Time: 0


I put the malt in at 38 degrees for 20 minute, then raise it to 67 degrees for 60 minutes etc.

If this is correct then do I wait until the unit gets up to 67 before counting down the 60 minutes?


----------



## danestead

Spookism said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm pretty new to all this and I am interested in having a go at this brew...
> I am using a GrainFather and have only brewed a couple of brews so far.
> Everyone of those has used a single step mash up until mash out.
> 
> So if I am reading this correctly...
> 
> 
> I put the malt in at 38 degrees for 20 minute, then raise it to 67 degrees for 60 minutes etc.
> 
> If this is correct then do I wait until the unit gets up to 67 before counting down the 60 minutes?


Correc

Correct


----------



## Spookism

danestead said:


> Correc
> 
> Correct


Thanks


----------



## woodfired

Danestead,

Great work on this recipe so far. 

Just thought I'd share the dry hopping technique I picked up at ANHC.

I turned a corny keg into a dedicated dry hop vessel by cutting an inch off the bottom of the pickup stem with a pipe cutter. When fermentation is complete I transfer to this keg with a bit of CO2 to try to achieve a blanket. Add dry hops as pellets. No bag! I then put lid on and purge with CO2 and put a bit off pressure on. I always try to do this on a weekend cos I then put the keg upside down for 30 minutes and flip it every half hour (or so) for 8 hours. (sometimes leave it overnight). Once this is done I put it in the fridge right way up for a day. The pressure and the chill help flocc out any remnant yeast and the hops. Next day I use an 'Out' to 'out' hose (got homebrew shop owner to make it for me) to transfer the beer prom the outlet of the dry hopping keg to the outlet of the final keg (again with a Co'2 blanket) with the lid on and the vent open. Then its done.

Seems like a bit of stuffing around, but equipment required was one corny and the custom hose. I rate the effect of dry hopping in this way to be at least double the aroma for the same recipe if not more. Since I've bee doing this the "mystery' of how they get that massive aroma in the DIPAs is no longer even a challenge.

Looking forward to trying your recipe.


----------



## danestead

woodfired said:


> Danestead,
> 
> Great work on this recipe so far.
> 
> Just thought I'd share the dry hopping technique I picked up at ANHC.
> 
> I turned a corny keg into a dedicated dry hop vessel by cutting an inch off the bottom of the pickup stem with a pipe cutter. When fermentation is complete I transfer to this keg with a bit of CO2 to try to achieve a blanket. Add dry hops as pellets. No bag! I then put lid on and purge with CO2 and put a bit off pressure on. I always try to do this on a weekend cos I then put the keg upside down for 30 minutes and flip it every half hour (or so) for 8 hours. (sometimes leave it overnight). Once this is done I put it in the fridge right way up for a day. The pressure and the chill help flocc out any remnant yeast and the hops. Next day I use an 'Out' to 'out' hose (got homebrew shop owner to make it for me) to transfer the beer prom the outlet of the dry hopping keg to the outlet of the final keg (again with a Co'2 blanket) with the lid on and the vent open. Then its done.
> 
> Seems like a bit of stuffing around, but equipment required was one corny and the custom hose. I rate the effect of dry hopping in this way to be at least double the aroma for the same recipe if not more. Since I've bee doing this the "mystery' of how they get that massive aroma in the DIPAs is no longer even a challenge.
> 
> Looking forward to trying your recipe.


Thanks a lot woodfired. That seems like the most amazing way to dry hop I will most definitely try that on my next hoppy ale! That doesn't seem like much extra effort at all tbh.

Cheers!

Edit: 1 question, only dry hop for 1 day prior to chilling? Have you experimented with longer dry hopping times?


----------



## Dan Pratt

I'm very interested in that method, 1 day seems very fast. I am used to 5-7 days so possibly use the cornie method and flip every day or half day, but heck if you get full contact and excellent results from 36hrs.....sweet hoppy aroma. 

Looking forward to trying the method.


----------



## Alchomist

This is a great thread Dano

I do something similar to woodfired. Removed the auto pressure relief valves from a couple of cornie lids & installed a blow off tube, as well as shortened the spear by an inch. These I call my Ghetto Conicals that I use for secondary / dry hopping. 

Swap lids on these kegs prior to transfer & pump out a schooner or so till no hops are visible then transfer away.


----------



## Alchomist

I've been following your Recipes with interest & did 4 versions over the long weekend based loosely around your versions 4 & 5. Chilled 2 & cubed 2 to check out how that effects the flavour & aroma levels.

Planning to keg carb & age in my cellar for a month if I can hold out that long.


----------



## technobabble66

^^ v keen to hear your report on the comparison between the chilled & no-chilled versions. 
For the no-chilled, did you add the hops to the cube, or did you do regular kettle additions then drain to the cube?

... I'm currently keen on a theory that cube-hopping captures the most hops oils of the common techniques; and so might offer the best way to instill hops flavour (& aroma) (cf dry hopping being best for aroma impact). 
So I'm v interested to hear of anyone's comparisons of parallel brews.


----------



## Alchomist

I figured that 185g from the kettle additions was pushing it bitterness wise. Beersmith rates all versions between 59 - 62 IBUs which is close to the limit for this style, so I figured dry hopping after primary would add aroma without too much additional bitterness.

I did notice a marked difference between chilled / cubed after 5 days when I took gravity readings & transferred to secondary. The chilled version (as per Dano's whirlpool lock-in at 70C) had a much smoother/ hoppier flavour with a lingering background bitterness. The cubed version had more of an up-front bitterness & was much less hoppy.

Early days tho, time & 125g of dry hops might produce something altogether different.


----------



## woodfired

danestead said:


> Thanks a lot woodfired. That seems like the most amazing way to dry hop I will most definitely try that on my next hoppy ale! That doesn't seem like much extra effort at all tbh.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Edit: 1 question, only dry hop for 1 day prior to chilling? Have you experimented with longer dry hopping times?


Yes I have but didn't notice much increase, even tried it for an identical recipe. The 8 hours of flipping the keg every half hour forces the hops to travel through the beer 16 times resulting in much more surface area contact. The spend hops when emptied out at the end of the process are a very fine mush.


----------



## technobabble66

Sorry for being a bit thick, but I just want to make sure I understand exactly what you did: 
I take it the cubed version had all the hops additions done into the kettle and was *not* "cube-hopped"?
If that's the case then your results are definitely what I'd expect - no-chill has a sharper bitterness and loss of hops impact. 

Apologies - I probably should've been clearer in post#185, :lol: 
I'm v keen the compare cube-hopping to chilled.

And yeah, by the time it's bottled/kegged and left for a week, it has a tendency to turn around a bit. 
Still keen to hear how it goes, so report back in a few weeks!!


----------



## Alex.Tas

woodfired said:


> Danestead,
> 
> Great work on this recipe so far.
> 
> Just thought I'd share the dry hopping technique I picked up at ANHC.
> 
> I turned a corny keg into a dedicated dry hop vessel by cutting an inch off the bottom of the pickup stem with a pipe cutter. When fermentation is complete I transfer to this keg with a bit of CO2 to try to achieve a blanket. Add dry hops as pellets. No bag! I then put lid on and purge with CO2 and put a bit off pressure on. I always try to do this on a weekend cos I then put the keg upside down for 30 minutes and flip it every half hour (or so) for 8 hours. (sometimes leave it overnight). Once this is done I put it in the fridge right way up for a day. The pressure and the chill help flocc out any remnant yeast and the hops. Next day I use an 'Out' to 'out' hose (got homebrew shop owner to make it for me) to transfer the beer prom the outlet of the dry hopping keg to the outlet of the final keg (again with a Co'2 blanket) with the lid on and the vent open. Then its done.
> 
> Seems like a bit of stuffing around, but equipment required was one corny and the custom hose. I rate the effect of dry hopping in this way to be at least double the aroma for the same recipe if not more. Since I've bee doing this the "mystery' of how they get that massive aroma in the DIPAs is no longer even a challenge.
> 
> Looking forward to trying your recipe.


Could be a bad idea, and i don;t keg so am not too sure as to the shape of the base of a corny, but could you use a big stir bar, and put your stirplate underneath it (with a platform to support the full keg weight) as a substitute for shaking it? with a decent stir plate and a big stir bar, you should be able to get enough movement within the keg to keep the hops in constant contact with the beer?


----------



## Alex.Tas

woodfired said:


> Danestead,
> 
> Great work on this recipe so far.
> 
> Just thought I'd share the dry hopping technique I picked up at ANHC.
> 
> I turned a corny keg into a dedicated dry hop vessel by cutting an inch off the bottom of the pickup stem with a pipe cutter. When fermentation is complete I transfer to this keg with a bit of CO2 to try to achieve a blanket. Add dry hops as pellets. No bag! I then put lid on and purge with CO2 and put a bit off pressure on. I always try to do this on a weekend cos I then put the keg upside down for 30 minutes and flip it every half hour (or so) for 8 hours. (sometimes leave it overnight). Once this is done I put it in the fridge right way up for a day. The pressure and the chill help flocc out any remnant yeast and the hops. Next day I use an 'Out' to 'out' hose (got homebrew shop owner to make it for me) to transfer the beer prom the outlet of the dry hopping keg to the outlet of the final keg (again with a Co'2 blanket) with the lid on and the vent open. Then its done.
> 
> Seems like a bit of stuffing around, but equipment required was one corny and the custom hose. I rate the effect of dry hopping in this way to be at least double the aroma for the same recipe if not more. Since I've bee doing this the "mystery' of how they get that massive aroma in the DIPAs is no longer even a challenge.
> 
> Looking forward to trying your recipe.


Could be a bad idea, and i don;t keg so am not too sure as to the shape of the base of a corny, but could you use a big stir bar, and put your stirplate underneath it (with a platform to support the full keg weight) as a substitute for shaking it? with a decent stir plate and a big stir bar, you should be able to get enough movement within the keg to keep the hops in constant contact with the beer?


----------



## woodfired

It might work, but if you wanted to do it that way you are probably better off doing it in a 'better bottle' or carboy so you can visually gauge how much mixing you are getting.

Just a note. I don't shake it. I only ever change it from right way up to upside down then back again every half hour (or so) and I do this pretty gently. There's always the chance of a bit of un-purged oxygen.

I pick a day on the weekend that I'll be home and just turn it over whenever I think about it. The key to this technique's success (according to the speaker at ANHC) is the shape of a keg being tall. It forces the hops to travel through all of the wort each time you flip it. The hops come out as a very fine mush at the end, so I think they are very well utilized. Another possibility is that the pressure in the keg has some effect. But that is only a guess. Maybe someone with chemistry knowledge could comment on that aspect???


----------



## Dan Pratt

^ ^ im really keen to try this method, ive always seeked that clean pungent aroma and it was always not quite their.

was the ANHC recorded on podcast or and media content to have a listen??


----------



## woodfired

The presentation is on the page but not the recording. lots of other great presentaitons there too.

http://anhc.com.au/images/pressos/Dry%20Hopping%20Techniques%20-%20Vinnie%20Cilurzo.pdf


----------



## woodfired

PS. How could I forget that it was Vinnie Cilurzo?????????????????


----------



## goatus

On dry hopping - I'm thinking of getting a SS brew tech chronical fermenter, and after primary + dumping the yeast/trub, connecting a pump between the two bottom ports so the dry hops are constantly circulated around the conical portion of the fermenter. only challenge will be finding a way to purge oxygen from the pump / hoses first. Could work out amazing, or could be oxidised rubbish :-/


----------



## N3MIS15

I had a retail hop hog along side my last hop hog brew last night and kept thinking it was a bit salty. I haven't done any water chemistry yet in my brewing (I'm still an amatuer brewer) but was wondering if anyone had tried adding a bit of salt? I put a pinch of salt in the glass and it seemed to perk it up a bit. I've been adding 5.2 ph stabalizer to the mash water but nothing else..


----------



## technobabble66

An interesting observation!
Salt (sodium chloride) is toxic to yeast so no one adds it to any brewing that I know of. Obviously a pinch might not have any toxic effect, but I'm guessing you'd need to add a bit more than a pinch in 21 L to taste it. 
Maybe altering your water chemistry with the regular salts (CaSO4, CaCl2, MgSO4) will add the particular flavours you've detected. 
I'd hazard a guess that maybe the Chloride could add what you've detected, plus a bit of (hops) sharpness from the Sulfate. 
2c


----------



## rockeye84

I add 3-4g per 50L batch for some Sodium, I find it helps with the overall flavour, no ill effects.


----------



## technobabble66

^^ interesting to know, rockeye84.
Didn't think anyone bothered with sodium, so i've never considered adding it.
I should probably admit i'm also one of those people who generally don't add salt to all their food... so i might be a little biased in this.


----------



## rockeye84

You may also be interested.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/15432-do-you-add-table-salt-when-mashing-or-in-the-boil/


----------



## N3MIS15

Very interesting. I was going to add 1mg of salt when i brewed a batch yesterday but decided against it. I might disolve some table salt in some boiled water and add to the keg. Any reason why that could be a bad idea?


----------



## rockeye84

What's your water source?


----------



## N3MIS15

I use tap water put through carbon filter


----------



## rockeye84

Probably check a local water report before adding sodium then.


----------



## N3MIS15

Like I said earlier, I haven't done any water chemistry yet. I have however been looking into it. I have a local water report and have run the numbers through beersmith to try and adjust my water to a random pale ale target i pulled from the interwebs somewhere. I was going to adjust my water for yesterdays hop hog attempt but I made changes to the grain bill that I would like to compare against my previous attempt and didn't want to fudge my perception by messing with too much between brews (I'm still a brewing noob, so baby steps ).

I am curious however on people would think is an acceptable target for the water. These are the "random" numbers I pulled from the web for a pale ale style:
ca 140 
mg 18 
na 25 
sulfate 300 
chloride 55

which according to beersmith equated to adding (roughly):
9.3g gypsum
1.4g epsom salt
0.6g table salt

Do you think that target would suit this beer? I honestly have no idea since I have never changed my water before :unsure:


----------



## rockeye84

I have been down the 1:6 Cl:SO4 ratio road suggested for ipas & pale ales, in my opinion it produces huge harsh bitterness that I don't like or find apparent in commercial examples, like the one this thread is referring to. 

After many brews and much experimentation, starting with RO or rain water, I use palmers easy water spread sheet to work out my salt and acid additions to hit the desired ion levels & mash ph. 

I use..
Ca:~100ppm Mg:~10ppm Na:~40ppm Cl:~50 SO4:~100ppm for my pale ales & ipas

Ca:~50 Mg:~5ppm Na:~20ppm Cl:~80 SO4:~80ppm for my lagers & pilsners.

If I were going to brew this I would use my above pale ale levels, maybe push the SO4 to 150ppm tops. 

Ps I gave up on the BS2 water tool, I find it no help what so ever.

Jus my 2c


----------



## N3MIS15

Thanks rockeye. I will try out those vales in my next batch.


----------



## danestead

I think its time I brewed this again.


----------



## Nurple

danestead said:


> I think its time I brewed this again.


I agree 

Post back results


----------



## technobabble66

Nurple said:


> I agree
> 
> Post results


FTFY


----------



## N3MIS15

FWIW This article has an interesting quote regarding the hops in hop hog. No Amarillo apparently.



> Varis said dry hopping tweaks had seen the brewing team settle on an optimal mix of Galaxy, Mosaic and Amarillo.
> “Funnily enough, of those hops that we’ve settled on, none of them are in Hop Hog,” he said.


----------



## danestead

N3MI said:


> FWIW This article has an interesting quote regarding the hops in hop hog. No Amarillo apparently.


Yeah it seems it changes a bit. Amarillo has been mentioned by Brendan as being in Hop Hog in previous articles. I believe the most recent harvest of Amarillo was not as good as previous years so there may be a shortage.


----------



## Pjp49rg

Have read through the thread in prep for having a first attempt at this. I noticed that there was some discussion on keg dry hopping after making some keg mods. I was thinking about using my hop rocket between 2 kegs for my dry hop before chilling to serve. The hop rocket would be used with a tea infuser of pellet hops and a few cascade flowers. Has anyone tried this? I'm guessing the aromas might be a little different due to contact time with any residual yeast?


----------



## Fraser's BRB

Just tapped my first attempt at this one, for testing purposes you understand, don't want to over carb it after all and it is a school night.

Dano, you're a genius. This is delicious. Great recipe, will brew again.


----------



## jimmy_jangles

On my to brew next list for sure, it's been about a year since I brewed it last.....glorious!


----------



## danestead

jimmy_jangles said:


> On my to brew next list for sure, it's been about a year since I brewed it last.....glorious!





Fraser's BRB said:


> Just tapped my first attempt at this one, for testing purposes you understand, don't want to over carb it after all and it is a school night.
> 
> Dano, you're a genius. This is delicious. Great recipe, will brew again.


Nice, cheers guys. I too am brewing this in the coming weeks. I've had lagers on tap for the last few months and am craving hops big time!


----------



## snstainer

Yeah I followed this recipe except I used weyermann pale ale malt everything else was the same. Wow it turned out perfect color and taste spot on. A couple of mates couldn't tell the difference. It has become my stock beer.
Cheers to Dano


----------



## snstainer

Yeah I followed this recipe except I used weyermann pale ale malt everything else was the same. Wow it turned out perfect color and taste spot on. A couple of mates couldn't tell the difference. It has become my stock beer.
Cheers to Dano


----------



## doctr-dan

danestead said:


> After having a taste of version #4, personally I think it needs more aroma, has a pretty bad astringency and possibly a tad dry. Other than that, I think it's where I want it. The judges in the WASABC mentioned more aroma needed, astringency, too many esters, acetaldehyde and hop flavour too low.
> 
> The updated recipe to be brewed next (version #5) has doubled the 0 minute and dry hopping amounts, uses tap water rather than RO/DI water made up with salts to fix the astringency problems and uses wy1056 to try drop the esters that the judges are noticing (I can't notice them but the likelyhood is that I just think that is the hops giving those aromas). I've left the 15 minute flavour hops the same as I think it closely reflects that of the Feral Hop Hog. I've also very slightly changed the mash schedule to a 67 degree rest.
> 
> With any luck, this will be the end of the tweaking.
> 
> Enjoy, and if you brew it, let me know how it turns out.
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> 
> 
> *Recipe: Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 5)*
> 
> *Equipment*_-------------
> 20L Braumeister_
> 
> *Recipe Specifics*
> ----------------
> 
> Batch Size (L): 26.00 Post Boil
> Total Grain (Kg): 6.12
> Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.30
> Target FG: 1.014
> Anticipated EBC: 14.1
> Anticipated IBU: 49.1 Tinseth
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 78 %
> Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
> Alc by Volume: 5.8%
> 
> *Grain/Extract/Sugar*
> 
> % Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 87.5 5.35 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
> 10.0 0.61 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
> 2.5 0.15 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125
> 
> *Hops*
> 
> Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 30.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.59 32.5 60 min.
> 
> 15.00 g. Amarillo Pellet 7.79 5.9 15 min.
> 15.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.68 4.3 15 min.
> 15.00 g. Centennial Pellet 8.30 6.3 15 min.
> 
> 36.40 g. Amarillo Pellet 7.79 0.0 0 min.
> 36.40 g. Cascade Pellet 5.68 0.0 0 min.
> 36.40 g. Centennial Pellet 8.30 0.0 0 min.
> 
> _Once the boil is up and the 0 minute hops are added, I immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's and stop isomerisation, then do a whirlpool for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's._
> 
> 50.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.68 0.0 Dry Hop
> 50.00 g. Centennial Pellet 8.30 0.0 Dry Hop
> 50.00 g. Amarillo Pellet 7.79 0.0 Dry Hop
> 
> _Dry hop for approximately 4 days toward the end of fermentation._
> 
> *Yeast*
> -----
> Starter of _Fermentis US-05 American Ale, Wyeast 1056 or White Labs 001._
> _Fermented at 18 degrees. Diacetyl rest at 22 degrees once gravity hits 1.020._
> 
> *Mash Schedule*
> -------------
> 
> Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 0
> Saccharification Rest Temp: 67 Time: 60
> Additional Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
> Mash-out Rest Temp: 76 Time: 10
> Sparge Temp: 76 Time: 0
> 
> *Water*-------
> Perth tap water put through a sediment and carbon filter.
> Mash PH adjusted to 5.4 (room temp.) with Lactic Acid.
> My initial attempts used RO/DI water built to a specific profile with salts but it appears this was causing an astringency.


Forgive my ignorance, what do I need to change to do a 23ltr batch in th GF ?


----------



## BKBrews

doctr-dan said:


> Forgive my ignorance, what do I need to change to do a 23ltr batch in th GF ?


If you can wait until Monday I can send you what I copied across into BS from this thread. I haven't made it yet though.


----------



## Fraser's BRB

doctr-dan said:


> Forgive my ignorance, what do I need to change to do a 23ltr batch in th GF ?


There you go.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Dano's Hop Hog Clone
Brewer: BRB
Asst Brewer: 
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 12.96 l
Post Boil Volume: 12.13 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l 
Bottling Volume: 22.05 l
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 13.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 38.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 65.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
5.673 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) US (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 87.5 % 
0.648 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 2 10.0 % 
0.162 kg Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC) Grain 3 2.5 % 
30.00 g Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 25.6 IBUs 
15.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 4.9 IBUs 
15.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 2.9 IBUs 
15.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 5.3 IBUs 
36.40 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 8 0.0 IBUs 
36.40 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs 
36.40 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs 
0.9 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 Yeast 11 - 
50.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs 
50.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs 
50.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs 


Mash Schedule: BRB Single Infusion Mash, Batch sparge
Total Grain Weight: 6.484 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time 
Mash Step Add 28.59 l of water at 71.1 C 67.0 C 60 min 
Mash Step Add -0.00 l of water at 72.0 C 72.0 C 10 min 
Mash Out Heat to 75.0 C over 4 min 75.0 C 10 min 

Sparge: Batch sparge with 1 steps (Drain mash tun ) of 75.6 C water
Notes:
------
Caramunich 2 150g


Edit: Ignore the water volumes, only the mash step temps are relevant in this case.


----------



## danestead

G'day guys,

I've had my latest version on tap a few weeks now. It has come out OK but it has some astringency. I thought I had solved my astringency issues but I'm starting to wonder if it is anything to do with the soft boil on the Braumeister. I'm hoping to borrow a mates gas kettle to do the boil on for the next batch to see if a stronger boil affects the astringency.

Cheers.


----------



## Dan Pratt

danestead said:


> G'day guys,
> 
> I've had my latest version on tap a few weeks now. It has come out OK but it has some astringency. I thought I had solved my astringency issues but I'm starting to wonder if it is anything to do with the soft boil on the Braumeister. I'm hoping to borrow a mates gas kettle to do the boil on for the next batch to see if a stronger boil affects the astringency.
> 
> Cheers.


dano, Ive been boiling on the 20lt BM for 5 yrs now and would not put astringency down to any form of boil whether it be on the low side.


----------



## danestead

Pratty1 said:


> dano, Ive been boiling on the 20lt BM for 5 yrs now and would not put astringency down to any form of boil whether it be on the low side.


I wouldn't have thought the boil would affect astringency either, but I'm pretty much out of options, so I thought I could give it a try.

Do you brew many very hoppy and bitter beers? How do they turn out? I'm not really sure what else I may be doing wrong. The only thing I could think of is mash PH, but I test with what is advertised as a quality meter, and adjust the PH with lactic acid.


----------



## Killer Brew

I have been getting some astringency using my Grainfather also. Think possibly from oversparging? Am going to leave last running out and either take less volume or a slight efficiency hit.


----------



## Dan Pratt

danestead said:


> I wouldn't have thought the boil would affect astringency either, but I'm pretty much out of options, so I thought I could give it a try.
> 
> Do you brew many very hoppy and bitter beers? How do they turn out? I'm not really sure what else I may be doing wrong. The only thing I could think of is mash PH, but I test with what is advertised as a quality meter, and adjust the PH with lactic acid.


80% of my beers are hoppy pales or IPAs with ibu ranging from 40-80+ with the dipas.

Id be thinking water and possibly sparge. I used to mash with 25lts and sparge with 5lts for a typical pale ale, now its pretty much full volume at 29lts and a 1lt rinse.

Have you read the bjcp flashcards for off flavours? There is a section on astringency.


----------



## danestead

Killer Brew said:


> I have been getting some astringency using my Grainfather also. Think possibly from oversparging? Am going to leave last running out and either take less volume or a slight efficiency hit.


I only ever sparge about 3-5L and have previously tested the final sparge PH and gravity and all has been fine so I kind of assumed that wasn't my problem.


----------



## danestead

Pratty1 said:


> 80% of my beers are hoppy pales or IPAs with ibu ranging from 40-80+ with the dipas.
> Id be thinking water and possibly sparge. I used to mash with 25lts and sparge with 5lts for a typical pale ale, now its pretty much full volume at 29lts and a 1lt rinse.
> Have you read the bjcp flashcards for off flavours? There is a section on astringency.


I've read very extensively on astringency! I use RO water for sparging, so I could try just tap water, but in theory, the RO would be better.

I could try a no sparge brew also.


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## Dan Pratt

I'm using rain water. Does the RO ever need the filter replaced?


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## danestead

Pratty1 said:


> I'm using rain water. Does the RO ever need the filter replaced?


Yep it does. I have a high quality, Australian made, RO system that I use for my aquarium. The filters are changed when they are due.


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## Dan Pratt

Taking a step back. Can you describe the flavour/astringency?


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## danestead

Pratty1 said:


> Taking a step back. Can you describe the flavour/astringency?


Yep, astringent. Like sucking on a tea bag. I used to get it quite harsh, but since changing my water it hasn't been as bad. I tend to pick up on astringency quite easily now that I know what it is and how much it's annoyed me. I pick up on it in various commercial beers occasionally as well. I remember Newstead Brewing Co. had it pretty bad in some of their beers a year or so ago, also Bootleg have had issues, but I think they are on top of the astringency now.


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## Autopilot

So I saw a guy post up these pics on a FB beer group.










Using that info and info from Ferals website, I came up with this recipe.

5.10 kg Pale Malt, Ale (3.0 SRM) 97.0 % 
160 g Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) 3.0 % 
20.00 g EKG [5.00 %] - Boil 60 mins 10.6 IBUs 
Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)
80.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] Whirlpool 10mins 15.3 IBUs 
80.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] Whirlpool 10 mins 19.9 IBUs 
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 
35.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days 
35.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days 
23.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days 
23.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
Mash at 65ºC for the extra attenuation needed for a FG of 1.008
Ferment at 18ºC
This is for a 23 Litre batch at 70% bhe.


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## Moad

Absolute cracker Dano, just poured my first attempt on your recipe next to the real thing from a bottle. I found an issue with my system that meant I was mashing a degree or two high so mine is a little fuller bodied and a few EBC darker. I think this took away from the hop flavour slightly, I get more orange citrus from the real thing which could just be different crops of Amarillo or it could be the fuller body. Mine is a little more bitter as well, I think mine would tip in to IPA territory which Hop Hog borders. I think I actually prefer the clone, little bit more going on. In saying that I will dry it out and ease up on the caramunich a touch to see if I can dial it right in. Thanks very much for the recipe


BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Hop Pig
Brewer: Toad
Asst Brewer: 
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 147.62 l
Post Boil Volume: 128.13 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 120.00 l 
Bottling Volume: 115.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 14.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 54.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 76.9 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
26.50 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 Grain 1 90.0 % 
2.05 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 2 7.0 % 
0.90 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 3 3.1 % 
145.00 g Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 36.3 IBUs 
72.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 6.9 IBUs 
72.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 4.1 IBUs 
72.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 7.4 IBUs 
186.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0 Hop 8 0.0 IBUs 
168.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0. Hop 9 0.0 IBUs 
150.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop 10 0.0 IBUs 
6 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05 Yeast 11 - 
250.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs 
250.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs 
250.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Day Hop 14 0.0 IBUs 


Mash Schedule: Hop Hog Mash Steps
Total Grain Weight: 29.45 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperatu Step Time 
Mash In Add 88.35 l of water at 40.6 C 38.0 C 0 min 
Mash Step Add 0.00 l of water at 67.0 C 67.0 C 60 min 
Mash Step Add 0.00 l of water at 72.0 C 72.0 C 10 min 
Mash Step Add 0.00 l of water at 78.0 C 78.0 C 10 min 

Sparge: Fly sparge with 88.77 l water at 78.0 C
Notes:
------



Mine on the right


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## danestead

Good to see a couple of people above enjoying my clone.

I've taken a step back from AHB in the recent year or so as life got busy with the addition of a kid so I haven't brewed this in ages. That's in part due to continuing issues with astringency (might be something I'm doing as others haven't reported the same from their systems) and more recently DMS (think it was coming from an infection, which I think I might have fixed).

I just opened the freezer to get some hops out for a Kölsch and I saw all my yummy American hops, so I think I'm going to have to give this recipe another crack.

Cheers guys.


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## Yob

Do you have to add coke to it now?


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## danestead

Yob said:


> Do you have to add coke to it now?



No, but I probably won't be shipping it refrigerated anymore!


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## danestead

I brewed this the other week and it's now in the keg carbing up. It's about half carbed and so far tastes pretty good. I only used about half the dry hops compared to my recipe because I think they were contributing to my astringency problems. The beer tastes pretty good as I said, but I don't think I'm a big fan of centennial. When I opened the hops to weigh them out I caught a whiff of an aroma/taste I've noticed before and not liked. Next batch I think I'll cut the centennial out to try tweak this recipe to my liking. I don't think I can taste any DMS either. I think that issue may have been an infection somewhere cold side like kegs or tap lines. I've given them a thorough clean and in 3 batches the DMS has reduced dramatically or disappeared.

Cheers guys.


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## PrizeFightinYeti

Autopilot said:


> So I saw a guy post up these pics on a FB beer group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using that info and info from Ferals website, I came up with this recipe.
> 
> 5.10 kg Pale Malt, Ale (3.0 SRM) 97.0 %
> 160 g Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) 3.0 %
> 20.00 g EKG [5.00 %] - Boil 60 mins 10.6 IBUs
> Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)
> 80.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] Whirlpool 10mins 15.3 IBUs
> 80.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] Whirlpool 10 mins 19.9 IBUs
> 1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast
> 35.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
> 35.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
> 23.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
> 23.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
> Mash at 65ºC for the extra attenuation needed for a FG of 1.008
> Ferment at 18ºC
> This is for a 23 Litre batch at 70% bhe.



Forgive my ignorance, but is that the former owner of Feral?


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