# All Grain Biab Efficiency Register



## MarkBastard (24/3/10)

I have had an extensive list and haven't been able to find out this info.

I would like everyone who uses BIAB to list your typical efficiency (into fermenter), and whether or not you mash-out or dunk sparge, or anything else (including finer grain crush).

I have done two batches now and both were bang on 65% efficiency, with no dunk sparge and no mash out. The first one I wasn't happy with so the second one I changed my process a bit and made sure I squeezed the bag a lot more and let it drain properly etc, but it didn't change the efficiency one bit.

I want to know if anyone gets much better than 65% efficiency without dunk sparging or doing mash outs.

Name | Efficiency | Dunk Sparge | Mash-Out | Finer grain crush
Mark^Bastard | 65% | No | No | No


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## vykuza (24/3/10)

Name | Efficiency | Dunk Sparge | Mash-Out | Finer grain crush
Mark^Bastard | 65% | No | No | No
Nick R | 70% | Yes | No | No


I went from around 62-65% to 70% with a dunk sparge. Worth the effort for me.


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## Bribie G (24/3/10)

I'll be in that, Mark. I've never bothered up to now, if the beer gets me pissed after five pints then I've hit good efficiency B) however I should get a bit more rigorous I suppose.

What's a good formula in the metric system to work it out? I only seem to be able to find formulae in pounds and gallons out there. And no, I don't use Beersmith "painting by numbers" type software. 

Edit: I'm _finally_ getting round to my XXXX clone today and will be using a rice adjunct and dunk sparge as well.


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## MarkBastard (24/3/10)

BribieG said:


> I'll be in that, Mark. I've never bothered up to now, if the beer gets me pissed after five pints then I've hit good efficiency B) however I should get a bit more rigorous I suppose.
> 
> What's a good formula in the metric system to work it out? I only seem to be able to find formulae in pounds and gallons out there. And no, I don't use Beersmith "painting by numbers" type software.
> 
> Edit: I'm _finally_ getting round to my XXXX clone today and will be using a rice adjunct and dunk sparge as well.



The way I worked it out was adding the recipe to BeerSmith, putting the amount into fermenter as the batch size, and then adjusting the efficiency until the Expected OG meets up with the actual OG I measured with my hydrometer.

Not sure if that's the best way to do it, but at the end of the day it works for me because I can see the correlation between grain bill and OG, which helps tweak recipes down the track.

Thanks for that input Nick R, that would suggest a dunk sparge is a good way to increase efficiency (duh!). What method do you use? ie do you put in 4L less strike water and then have a 4L dunk sparge? Is your sparge water at mash out temps or the same temp as the regular mash?


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## Bribie G (24/3/10)

I nearly always do 90 min rolling boils, and find that with my 40L Birko Urn, any grain bill over 4k actually REQUIRES a dunk sparge to give me a cube full of wort. I use fairly hot sparge liquor from a stockpot, around 80 degrees - about 5L.


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## coe-crl (24/3/10)

BribieG said:


> What's a good formula in the metric system to work it out? I only seem to be able to find formulae in pounds and gallons out there. And no, I don't use Beersmith "painting by numbers" type software.




I've adjusted a pounds and gallons spreadsheet. It appears to be working properly so PM me an email address and I'll send you a copy. Also going to do my first BIAB soon, a 10L batch at the in laws in Melbourne over the easter break. Hope they don't mind me taking over the kitchen for a day!


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## gunbrew (24/3/10)

I have done 2 x 5.5kg biabs so far in my birko.
Have not yet ventured into working out efficiency or even how to do that.
After my 90 min mash I hoist the bag and let it drain and squeese it out.
Then I heat 5 litres of water to 80 degrees and poor it over/into the grain bag then againd let it drain and squeese it out.
After that the boil/hop additions.
Chilling.
Then read the gravity at 20 degrees being 1050 both times.
Cheers.


Mark^Bastard said:


> I have had an extensive list and haven't been able to find out this info.
> 
> I would like everyone who uses BIAB to list your typical efficiency (into fermenter), and whether or not you mash-out or dunk sparge, or anything else (including finer grain crush).
> 
> ...


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## gone brewing (24/3/10)

I use a 30L urn so when the mash is over and the grain is removed I have to add water at the start of the boil to get to my target volume of 25L at the end of the boil. Since I am adding water anyway, I do a batch sparge by dunking the bag in hot water and I get 85-90% efficiency at the end of the boil doing it this way. I tried a mash out a couple of times but I don't always do this.

Efficiency into the fermenter is less because of the 25L I have at the end of the boil I get 20L into the cube and 5L of trub. So efficiency into the fermenter is about 70%.


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## vykuza (24/3/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Thanks for that input Nick R, that would suggest a dunk sparge is a good way to increase efficiency (duh!). What method do you use? ie do you put in 4L less strike water and then have a 4L dunk sparge? Is your sparge water at mash out temps or the same temp as the regular mash?




That's exactly it Mark. I put in 8L less water initially, mash in the bag, and have another 8L in a pot going on the stove for my "sparge" water. After the initial mash, yank the bag out and let it drip for about 5 minutes, then throw it in the second pot, give it a stir, leave it 5 minutes and we're done. 

I don't specifically use a mash out temperature on my dunk sparge, as I'm not fussed about denaturing the enzymes and the good stir gets things loose enough for the draining/dripping. It's usually anywhere between the mash temp and about 75 degrees, depending on when I remember to turn off the burner.


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## mxd (24/3/10)

Name | Efficiency | Dunk Sparge | Mash-Out | Finer grain crush
Mark^Bastard | 65% | No | No | No
Nick R | 70% | Yes | No | No
mxd | 66% | Both | No | No
mxd (high OG) | 51 % | Yes | No | No - NB this was my first brew using my own mill and not drinking, so I might have (assume I did) buggered up.


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## Nick JD (24/3/10)

I just used an online calculator (imperial) and plugged in 3kg (6.6 lb) and 15L (4 gal) and 1.048 (usually about that) - and it said 80.8% brewhouse efficiency (used "Canadian Pale Malt").

And that's without a sparge, just squeezing the bag.

EDIT: Can someone with Beersmith plug in 3kg of Ale malt and 15L at 1.048? 

EDIT2: I "mill" my grain to a flour.


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## praxis178 (24/3/10)

Nick JD said:


> I just used an online calculator (imperial) and plugged in 3kg (6.6 lb) and 15L (4 gal) and 1.048 (usually about that) - and it said 80.8% brewhouse efficiency (used "Canadian Pale Malt").
> 
> And that's without a sparge, just squeezing the bag.
> 
> ...



Beersmith gives me 76.7% actual efficiency and 76.0% brewhouse efficiency.

Some one want to back check that, seems a big difference from Nick's online derived figure....


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## Nick JD (24/3/10)

Thomas J. said:


> Beersmith gives me 76.7% actual efficiency and 76.0% brewhouse efficiency.
> 
> Some one want to back check that, seems a big difference from Nick's online derived figure....



Thanks Thomas, 76 sounds better.

EDIT: I'm at this minute boiling up, and I just got 1.031 @75C for 15L with 2kg of BB Wheat and 1kg of BB Ale. That's 1.055. 

I did bucket sparge. I have a feeling BIABers need to start milling their grain much finer because I don't seem to get anything under 70% - more like 75-80%.


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## superdave (24/3/10)

Name | Efficiency | Dunk Sparge | Mash-Out | Finer grain crush
Mark^Bastard | 65% | No | No | No
Nick R | 70% | Yes | No | No
mxd | 66% | Both | No | No
mxd (high OG) | 51 % | Yes | No | No
SuperDave | 75% | yes | No | No


My first brew I followed the rule of thumb of grain to water ratio and chose 2.6L/kg of grain, got 55% without a dunk. Second one I again got 55% but tried 3L/kg. So went and bought a much bigger pot and did 3.5L/kg and jump up to 75% with a dunk, squeeze and a 30 min longer mash. So hopefully I can repeat that next brew.


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## QldKev (24/3/10)

Name | Efficiency | Dunk Sparge | Mash-Out | Finer grain crush
Mark^Bastard | 65% | No | No | No
Nick R | 70% | Yes | No | No
mxd | 66% | Both | No | No
mxd (high OG) | 51 % | Yes | No | No
SuperDave | 75% | yes | No | No
QldKev|78%|yes|yes|yes -- I sound like i'm talking to my wife...


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## gregs (24/3/10)

BribieG said:


> I'll be in that, Mark. I've never bothered up to now, if the beer gets me pissed after five pints then I've hit good efficiency B) however I should get a bit more rigorous I suppose.
> 
> What's a good formula in the metric system to work it out? I only seem to be able to find formulae in pounds and gallons out there. And no, I don't use Beersmith "painting by numbers" type software.
> 
> Edit: I'm _finally_ getting round to my XXXX clone today and will be using a rice adjunct and dunk sparge as well.



Beer Smith is not paint by numbers type of software, it does not do the recipe for you nor does it brew your beer. All it really helps you with is what you have archived with a given brew and recipe formulation. 

Thats why you cant answer Marks request because you dont have a clue what your brewing results are.

Hence the software you hate.


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## MarkBastard (24/3/10)

QldKev said:


> QldKev|78%|yes|yes|yes



Is your drunk sparge and mash out one step? Or do you mash out and then dunk sparge etc? Care to elaborate mate?


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## Nick JD (24/3/10)

If someone can beersmith 15L with 2kg of BB Wheat and 1kg of BB Ale = 1.055 and give me a %, then I'll chuck it into the list. Looks like I'll be the first to tick "finer grain crush = yes".

And yes - I should get BeerSmith, but I just don't need it unless someone asks me these kinda questions. I'm more of a "shut up and make ya beer" kinda chap. If my harddrive shits itself ... my Big Blue Book 'o Brewing will still have all my recipes. It's almost the only time I use the human art of _Handwriting_ these days. Don't take that from ME!


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## MarkBastard (24/3/10)

Nick JD said:


> If someone can beersmith 15L with 2kg of BB Wheat and 1kg of BB Ale = 1.055 and give me a %, then I'll chuck it into the list. Looks like I'll be the first to tick "finer grain crush = yes".
> 
> And yes - I should get BeerSmith, but I just don't need it unless someone asks me these kinda questions. I'm more of a "shut up and make ya beer" kinda chap. If my harddrive shits itself ... my Big Blue Book 'o Brewing will still have all my recipes. It's almost the only time I use the human art of _Handwriting_ these days. Don't take that from ME!



87%


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## Ross (24/3/10)

Guys - Your efficiency will vary greatly with water volume & grain quantity used. Without these your efficiency comparisons are really meaningless.

Cheers Ross


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## Nick JD (24/3/10)

Ross said:


> Guys - Your efficiency will vary greatly with water volume & grain quantity used. Without these your efficiency comparisons are really meaningless.
> 
> Cheers Ross



I thought effiency was the SG you got in a certain amount of liquid vs your grain bill. Am I wrong?


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## gregs (24/3/10)

Nick JD said:


> If someone can beersmith 15L with 2kg of BB Wheat and 1kg of BB Ale = 1.055 and give me a %, then I'll chuck it into the list. Looks like I'll be the first to tick "finer grain crush = yes".
> 
> And yes - I should get BeerSmith, but I just don't need it unless someone asks me these kinda questions. I'm more of a "shut up and make ya beer" kinda chap. If my harddrive shits itself ... my Big Blue Book 'o Brewing will still have all my recipes. It's almost the only time I use the human art of _Handwriting_ these days. Don't take that from ME!



Yeah Nick good on ya mate love the hand written book, QldKev uses this method, but also when we brew using my rig, he uses Beer Smith. I do think it is of some importance to know the outcome of your brew day. 

Cheers. Gregs.


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## QldKev (24/3/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Is your drunk sparge and mash out one step? Or do you mash out and then dunk sparge etc? Care to elaborate mate?



60min mash
Good stir then 
Raise bag and drain until
Raise temp to Mash out temp
Dunk and open bag for stir
Raise and drain

QldKev


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## Bribie G (24/3/10)

gregs said:


> Beer Smith is not paint by numbers type of software, it does not do the recipe for you nor does it brew your beer. All it really helps you with is what you have archived with a given brew and recipe formulation.
> 
> That’s why you can’t answer Marks request because you don’t have a clue what your brewing results are.
> 
> Hence the software you hate.



With a given recipe I know what sort of beer I'm going to get, and with my hydrometer etc I know how strong / attenuated it is - and that's basically good enough for me. However I'm sure there's a simple metric formula (not in rods poles perches and bushels as our USA cousins prefer) for calculating efficiency that don't require a massive software program. Just interested in knowing whether a dunk sparge is going to improve efficiency. And I don't hate Beersmith - I've played with the evaluation version - also Promash and and not really interested. And I have the full version of Beer Engine which is far more applicable to my UK Ales. Havent fired that up for six months either.


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## QldKev (24/3/10)

Nick JD said:


> I thought effiency was the SG you got in a certain amount of liquid vs your grain bill. Am I wrong?




I'm with you Nick JD

I though it was a ratio of potential extraction from grain bill, by the amount of liquid in the pot. 

QldKev


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## QldKev (24/3/10)

BribieG said:


> With a given recipe I know what sort of beer I'm going to get, and with my hydrometer etc I know how strong / attenuated it is - and that's basically good enough for me. However I'm sure there's a simple metric formula (not in rods poles perches and bushels as our USA cousins prefer) for calculating efficiency that don't require a massive software program. Just interested in knowing whether a dunk sparge is going to improve efficiency. And I don't hate Beersmith - I've played with the evaluation version - also Promash and and not really interested. And I have the full version of Beer Engine which is far more applicable to my UK Ales. Havent fired that up for six months either.



I need some beers, I though the idea of measuring efficiency was so we are craftsman can create a consistent product.

QldKev


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## QldKev (24/3/10)

gregs said:


> Yeah Nick good on ya mate love the hand written book, QldKev uses this method, but also when we brew using my rig, he uses Beer Smith. I do think it is of some importance to know the outcome of your brew day.
> 
> Cheers. Gregs.




I do 'brew by book' wow I've invented a new phrase. By also keep an eye on Beersmith to calc my efficiencies to work out if I am consistent. So my book has all the 'what i did' and 'what numbers' happened, where beersmith allow me to convert it back to statistical numbers to see where I'm heading. 

But if I want to try ideas for a recipe, Beersmith is the first place I turn to to see how the numbers add up.

QldKev


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## gregs (24/3/10)

BribieG said:


> With a given recipe I know what sort of beer I'm going to get, and with my hydrometer etc I know how strong / attenuated it is - and that's basically good enough for me. However I'm sure there's a simple metric formula (not in rods poles perches and bushels as our USA cousins prefer) for calculating efficiency that don't require a massive software program. Just interested in knowing whether a dunk sparge is going to improve efficiency. And I don't hate Beersmith - I've played with the evaluation version - also Promash and and not really interested. And I have the full version of Beer Engine which is far more applicable to my UK Ales. Havent fired that up for six months either.




The fact is Bribie we all know what kind of beer we are formulating and brewing. And Beer Smith can help, although it is not some powerful software thing you think it is (you can just download the simple thing on the net and use it) then youll be able to work out what your numbers are. Not be in limbo as you are. Maybe you should paint by numbers?


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## Nick JD (24/3/10)

I also use WordSmith for working out what I plan to write. 

And PoopSmith for my bowel mooovements. Ooo, that reminds me, my steak n chips conversion efficiency has gone down a little, but then I did eat that curry...

Speaking of Poopsmith:


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## PistolPatch (24/3/10)

G'day Mark. Good topic mate.

Am a bit short on time so have only read the first post here. A few guys were kind enough to send their figures to me a while ago which I put into spreadsheet form. Ill post it below and I hope this helps you out. You'll see that 78% post-boil efficiency ends up being about 68% into fermenter. When brewers talk about efficeincy, they are usually referring to the former figure.

65% into fermenter is fine.

Here is the spreadsheet... View attachment BIABrewer_Register.xls


Cheers,
Pat


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## MarkBastard (24/3/10)

Wow, that's awesome PP. Some great info there. Thanks mate.


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## RobB (25/3/10)

It bounces around a bit depending on the brew, but I get around 80% into the kettle and 70% out of it.

No dunk sparging. I tried it for a while and it made sweet F.A. difference and gave me another vessel to wash. I do, however, attack my bag with a potato masher while it's draining! This maximises the volume collected and I lose less than half a litre per kg to absorption.

Yes to mash-out and fine crush.


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## Thunus (25/3/10)

My new system is hitting 70 to 75% out of the kettle for double and triple batches.
My old 23 ltr system was always around 80% with a dunk sparge, mash out and fine crush.
I now mash out and fine crush but don't sparge (Less cleaning and hard to do with triples), efficiency seems to decrease with larger batches/grain bills.


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## Phoney (25/3/10)

I hit anywhere from 62% to 75%. I reckon about half the time im over 70% though.. Which completely baffles me when I brew exactly the same beer, same water volume, same temperature etc and I have a difference of 1042 and 1048 in SG! I put it down to the amount that I stir the grain during the mash.

This is my routine;

75-90 min mash
Stir for 5 mins after adding grain, and stir again every 30 mins.
Raise temperature to 78C without raising bag, just give a constant stir to keep the wort temperature consistent.
Raise bag, chuck in bucket, squeeze like buggery
Boil for 60 mins.

At the moment im building The Urninator - an electronic contraption that fits onto the lid of my birko. It will have a variable speed gear motor that drives a SS tank mixer and a temperature probe that drops into the wort - which the urn plugs into . So I can simply set my desired mash temperature on this baby, turn the mixer on and walk away for 90 mins without having to think about temperature drops or manual stirring! Then bump it up to 78, walk away for another 20 mins and she'll be ready to hoist.

Im hoping this improves my effiency and gets my numbers consistent.


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## MarkBastard (25/3/10)

Do you cover the element in your birko?


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## Phoney (25/3/10)

Yep, an upside down SS colander fits over it like a glove.


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## malbur (25/3/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> This is my routine;
> 
> 75-90 min mash
> Stir for 5 mins after adding grain, and stir again every 30 mins.
> ...



+1 
This is basically the same as i do, getting 70% to 75%.
Just made up a SS mesh screen to keep the bag off the bottom of my Urn.


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## Bribie G (25/3/10)

Where did you get the mesh from, and how easy to cut? Looking at doing some stepped mashes with Euro Lagers, and using the proper Pilsener malt. That looks like the business.


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## Phoney (25/3/10)

Shouldnt be too hard to source:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/STAINLESS-STEEL-304...=item5ad7b95a90

Although ^ that's enough for about 25 urns! Bulk buy?


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## mxd (25/3/10)

sounds great be interested t see the photo's/report



phoneyhuh said:


> I hit anywhere from 62% to 75%. I reckon about half the time im over 70% though.. Which completely baffles me when I brew exactly the same beer, same water volume, same temperature etc and I have a difference of 1042 and 1048 in SG! I put it down to the amount that I stir the grain during the mash.
> 
> This is my routine;
> 
> ...


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## black_labb (26/3/10)

just did my first all grain recipe last night. 

i got an efficiency of 74-75 into the cube according to brewmate and the old hydrometer that only goes to 1040 (i diluted the samply at a 1:1 ratio to get 1026, meaning 1052 for the actual product). the good hydrometer broke when i took it out of the drawer (the end of the casing tube fell off  )

sorry for the long description, but i'm not up to speed on many of the names of processes. 
did a bit of a protein rest at 50* for 10mins then added some boiling water and turned the urns element on until it got to ~66*. kept it around there for an hour mixing every 10 mins while checking the temp. final temp was 64*. i then turned the element on and lifted the bag out of the urn and put it into a colander and squeezed out as much as i could running straight into the urn. i emptied some of the wort into a saucepan and ran in through the grains before squeezing some more into the urn. eventually i put some water at ~70* into the fermentor and dropped the bag with grains in and did alot of moving it around. i started adding this to the boil after there was some noticeable evaporation.

i am using a 30L urn so i needed to add some extra liquid to the mash to get the full 23l batch without risking boiling over, so i spent alot of time next to the urn really trying to work as much sugars out of the grains as possible, and used this liquid to top up the boil. 

i feel i had a pretty successful first time.


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## malbur (26/3/10)

BribieG said:


> Where did you get the mesh from, and how easy to cut? Looking at doing some stepped mashes with Euro Lagers, and using the proper Pilsener malt. That looks like the business.



Hi BribieG,
not sure on price of this mesh, I got it for nothing of a mate who picked up some SS shelving with the mesh trays in it at auction and he let me cut one of the trays up.
I had to use a grinder to cut it out.

Mal.


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## PistolPatch (2/4/10)

A quick note Mark,

Glad the spreadsheet helped a tad. You are most welcome to add to it if you can get some willing brewers.

It is rare to find brewers who will put their hand up and say, "Yep! I'll contribute my figures."

Some home-brewing lore is based on anecdotes that inadvertently gets passed on from one brewer to another without an iota based in fact. It's quite frightening to see how quickly misinformation gets passed on. I see articles on BIAB that say BIAB is less efficient than batch-sparging. In reality, it is actually about 5% more efficient and this fact is backed by brewing scientists not home brewers!

Anyway, if you get the desire and can find other brewers willing to contribute their results to the existing spreadsheet then go for it. It will cost you some time and effort though and please let me know if you do follow through on this.

Good on ya,
Pat


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## beerbog (9/8/10)

QldKev said:


> Name | Efficiency | Dunk Sparge | Mash-Out | Finer grain crush
> Mark^Bastard | 65% | No | No | No
> Nick R | 70% | Yes | No | No
> mxd | 66% | Both | No | No
> ...


Gibbo1 | 67.8% | No | No | No :beerbang:


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (9/8/10)

Goomba 75%|yes*|yes|yes* - sparged using pasta pot and water at 76 degrees not dunking| Finer grain crush provided by LHBS


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## argon (9/8/10)

Good timing for this thread to pop up... did a double batch last night and things went swimmingly... i usually calculate for 70% for a 38L batch size and 9kg grain bill.

Anyway my figures came in like so; 

Argon | 79% | Yes | Yes | No

Was pleasantly surprised. So now I can top up with an extra 4L into fermenter to hit my OG

Now the list looks like this;



> Name | Efficiency | Dunk Sparge | Mash-Out | Finer grain crush
> Mark^Bastard | 65% | No | No | No
> Nick R | 70% | Yes | No | No
> mxd | 66% | Both | No | No
> ...


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## jacknohe (9/8/10)

After performing only two BIAB AG brews, I've hit 65% for both. Need some more practice... ;-)

Jacknohe | 65% | Yes | Yes | No


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## argon (9/8/10)

jacknohe said:


> After performing only two BIAB AG brews, I've hit 65% for both. Need some more practice... ;-)
> 
> Jacknohe | 65% | Yes | Yes | No



My last 2 batches (double batches 9kg bill and 38L final vol) have jumped markedly from a clear 70% to now closer to 80%. The last batch, not only being more efficient has hop and grain flavour profiles second to none compared to my other beers. 

It may be just my experience, equipment, process, water, yada yada... but I only changed 1 thing... I got my hands on some of that 5.2 ph stabilizer stuff. A little bit of that into the mash (16g for me) really made a big difference. No more starch haze and probably some of the best beer i've ever had.


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## bcp (9/8/10)

malbur said:


> +1
> This is basically the same as i do, getting 70% to 75%.
> Just made up a SS mesh screen to keep the bag off the bottom of my Urn.
> View attachment 36651
> View attachment 36652


Actually i'm interested in setting up something similar to squeeze my bag when i get it out. I want an elegant solution that means the bag goes into a bucket onto a strong mesh like that, a flat press on top to apply pressure, and it drains from beneath back into the urn. Your mesh looks like a nice place to start. I don't like squeezing by hand - too freaking hot & sticky. 

I'm too new to give my efficiency - absolutely no consistency yet, but learning each time. I just used a slightly finer crush and blitzed my old efficiency. But finer crush seems to mean slightly more fluid (& therefore sugar) retention - hence a good squeeze mechanism. 

I wonder too about how everyone calculates:
Brewhouse efficiency: This is postmash/ preboil, right? At that point i often have 31 litres or more. So the measured gravity has to be adjusted to account for the fact i've got more water in there at that point. Not sure how to do that on beersmith yet, so i usually just do the maths. 
OG: again, depends on the volume, right? If you miss your original volume, you have to adjust.


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## unrealeous (9/8/10)

bcp said:


> I wonder too about how everyone calculates:
> Brewhouse efficiency: This is postmash/ preboil, right? At that point i often have 31 litres or more. So the measured gravity has to be adjusted to account for the fact i've got more water in there at that point. Not sure how to do that on beersmith yet, so i usually just do the maths.
> OG: again, depends on the volume, right? If you miss your original volume, you have to adjust.


I suggest you read this http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/10/26/b...n-beer-brewing/

From what I understand - the volume of liquid used in the efficiency calculation should be what you out of your kettle and into your fermenter/cube. You normally lose a bit to trub in the kettle.


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## hazard (9/8/10)

PistolPatch said:


> I see articles on BIAB that say BIAB is less efficient than batch-sparging. In reality, it is actually about 5% more efficient and this fact is backed by brewing scientists not home brewers!
> 
> Pat


Is this an anecdote or a fact?? I always get between 75 and 80% efficiency batch sparging, so is BIAB getting 80% to 85%? If a brewing "scientist" has made this claim then I want to see a peer-reviewed scientific study, otherwise its just an anecdote.


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## beerbog (9/8/10)

Gibbo1 said:


> Gibbo1 | 67.8% | No | No | No :beerbang:



67.8% is efficiency into fermentor, not efficiency into boiler, that was 79.4%. :beerbang:


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## Acasta (9/8/10)

Name | Efficiency | Dunk Sparge | Mash-Out | Finer grain crush
Mark^Bastard | 65% | No | No | No
Nick R | 70% | Yes | No | No
mxd | 66% | Both | No | No
mxd (high OG) | 51 % | Yes | No | No
SuperDave | 75% | yes | No | No
QldKev|78%|yes|yes|yes
Acasta|72%|Yes|no|sorta


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## PistolPatch (10/8/10)

*jacknohe:* Make sure you measure your efficiency pre or post-boil. This is the efficiency that most brewers are referring to. If your 65% was into the fermenter, that is great.

*hazard:* I love my wording there - obviously full of fuel . However, if you have a read here you'll find a link to some experiemnts done by Briggs plus some of the logic as to why BIAB gets a very respectable efficiency.

Cheers,
Pat


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## hazard (10/8/10)

PistolPatch said:


> *jacknohe:* Make sure you measure your efficiency pre or post-boil. This is the efficiency that most brewers are referring to. If your 65% was into the fermenter, that is great.
> 
> *hazard:* I love my wording there - obviously full of fuel  . However, if you have a read here you'll find a link to some experiemnts done by Briggs plus some of the logic as to why BIAB gets a very respectable efficiency.
> 
> ...


pat, still confused. I am not disagreeing that "BIAB gets a very respectable efficiency". I've never tried it so i cannot say one way or another. However I had trouble with your comment that "BIAB gives 5% better efficiency that batch sparge", based on the evidence available.
The spread sheet attached to Post #30 shows average efficiency into the fermentor of 67.7%. As stated in my last post I have never got less than 75% with a double run-off batch sparge, and always between 75% and 81%. So my question remains - on what basis is BIAB more efficient by 5%? And yes, i am measuring efficiency into the fermenter.


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## ~MikE (10/8/10)

hazard said:


> pat, still confused. I am not disagreeing that "BIAB gets a very respectable efficiency". I've never tried it so i cannot say one way or another. However I had trouble with your comment that "BIAB gives 5% better efficiency that batch sparge", based on the evidence available.
> The spread sheet attached to Post #30 shows average efficiency into the fermentor of 67.7%. As stated in my last post I have never got less than 75% with a double run-off batch sparge, and always between 75% and 81%. So my question remains - on what basis is BIAB more efficient by 5%? And yes, i am measuring efficiency into the fermenter.



there's way too many variables to flat out say that any one person will get better efficiency with batch/BIAB. honestly, when you're piecing together an AG setup, 3v batch systems and BIAB systems are cheap and both have unique advantages but efficiency is not a selling point in either.


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## Silo Ted (10/8/10)

When you gents discuss efficiency, is there something other than the amount of grain used that's important in the figures. If its about 65% versus 75% thats only a couple of dollars worth of extra and woudnt break anyones bank account. Or is it also that more grain means more unwanted crap from the husks, a poorer mashing performance, worse attenuation or what? Lately I am convinced that my crush was the culprit and being at the mercy of the stores mill settings with a bag full, I just make do with that in mind, and increase the base. Next buy I am going to insist on a finer crush and see if that makes a difference. Then if my efficiency is still poor I will have to review my own process. 

Out of interest, for both traditional sparge and single vessel methods, does lower mash temps or even fluctuating mash temps have a considerable impact on the final efficiency?


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## PistolPatch (13/8/10)

hazard said:


> pat, still confused. I am not disagreeing that "BIAB gets a very respectable efficiency". I've never tried it so i cannot say one way or another. However I had trouble with your comment that "BIAB gives 5% better efficiency that batch sparge", based on the evidence available.
> The spread sheet attached to Post #30 shows average efficiency into the fermentor of 67.7%. As stated in my last post I have never got less than 75% with a double run-off batch sparge, and always between 75% and 81%. So my question remains - on what basis is BIAB more efficient by 5%? And yes, i am measuring efficiency into the fermenter.


Scuse the belated reply hazard - haven't had time to scratch for the last week...

I think Mike's comments above were very valid. I also just wrote a post here which might also explain a lot.

My comments above about BIAB being about 5% more efficient than double batch-sparging are based on...

1. The Science - I know it is a hard read but reading the links I have already provided in this thread will show you that full-volume is more efficient than double batch-sparged. (Brewing software also always quotes 75% whereas BIAB is getting 80%).

2. My Reasoning - Also linked above. It would actually be crazy if BIAB wasn't more efficient. Took me a long time to realise this. Hopefully you'll have a read of what I wrote on this because it took 4 years for it to become clear to me!

3. My Experience - I used to double batch-sparge before I BIABed. I immediately jumped 5% in mash efficiency. I also did a few side by sides with mates in QLD etc and had the same result. (This was quite telling for me.)

As I have written many times, you should not trust your own efficiency figures let alone anyone elses. I have done side by side thermoemter and hydrometer calibrations _*so*_ many times. They _*never*_ match.

We think that when we buy a scientific instrument, they will read true. The stuff we get and use is a joke. I had four hydrometers once and, in the same liquid, with two different observers, had a 7 point difference on FG! (Both observers agreed.)

I now use the two hydrometers that agreed and, on some brews, even they don't match perfectly.

Efficiency is not an important thing in home brewing but is treated like a God. If you gave me a good recipe, and we both had a decent thermometer, then I will brew a great beer as well no matter if I get 70% or 90% "mash" efficiency.

BIAB has great efficiency - somewhere between batch and fly - but so what? It is so unimportant.

I've been AGing for probably 4 years. I have 8 kegs and only 4 of them I have recipes I am happy with. So, my time is spent looking for another 4 recipes that are truly delicious.

Everthing else is moonshine ,
Pat


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