# Politics



## philmud (12/7/13)

Since I have been one of the worst offenders for detailing threads with political diatribes of late, I thought I'd set up a separate thread as per a number of requests. I would encourage a civil tone to all discussion, but Keatingesque insults are encouraged. For example, Edak*, we are not interested in the views of painted, perfumed gigalos.

So, all welcome to post here, even you Tories.

*sorry Edak, yours was the last political post I could think of.


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## Liam_snorkel (12/7/13)

we could turn this into the Keating thread.

this vid is relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEsN4-XLE2k


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## Mardoo (12/7/13)

I think you need a more incendiary title to get people engaged. How about, "You Feckin' Liberals Suck!" or "Get a Dog Up Ya Labor!!!" 

I for one look forward to where this thread goes.


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## Liam_snorkel (12/7/13)

I'll vote for whoever gives me a reach around.


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## philmud (12/7/13)

Very true Mardoo, it's a bit bland, but hopefully some of those gutless Tory spivs will pop in for a look and stay for the stinging barbs.

Liam, I love the vid, PJKs put downs were such beautifully landed blows, floating butterflies and stinging bees to the haymakers thrown by our current crop.

Perhaps we should design a PJK tribute brew? It should have working class roots, but a taste for the fine life. Something high gravity but finishing low for that PJK dryness, and probably a good hop kick or some sourness to represent his insults.


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## pcmfisher (12/7/13)

I hear Bob Katter wants to split Qld into North and South.

I am intrigued as to what breed of people would vote for him anyway h34r: h34r:


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## warra48 (12/7/13)

I don't like voting for any of the bloodsucking pontificating ponces who suck the taxpayers' dollars like a leech, no matter from which side or angle of the political spectrum they originate.
Voting only results in pollies sucking the public teat, and the elected believing they have a mandate to screw the populace, while all the time working primarily in their own self interest.

There, is that getting close to good enough?


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## Bridges (12/7/13)

Great idea, but I reckon we need a separate thread titled "Dumb things Abbott said"


“We just can’t stop people from being homeless if that’s their choice.”

— Tony Abbott February 11th 2010 Sydney Morning Herald


“I also think that if you want to put a price on carbon, why not just do it with a simple tax? Why not ask motorists to pay more, why not ask electricity consumers to pay more and then at the end of the year you can take your invoices to the tax office and get a rebate of the carbon tax you've paid.”

— Tony Abbott July 29th 2009 Interview with Sky News Australia


“Just as Al Gore invented the internet: whatever policy she wants, she invented it.”

— Tony Abbott September 13th 2011 Australian Parliament: Hansard

and let him invoke Godwins law too...

“I believe that there is a vast moral gulf which separates modern Australia from Nazi Germany. But can we be so sure that, under pressure over time, we will not slide down the same slippery slope. We only have to look at the abortion situation in this country.”

— Tony Abbott October 16th 1995 Australian Parliament: Hansard

And there's so many more gems to choose from.


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## wbosher (12/7/13)

Wow, your pollies are just as bloody stupid as ours!! :lol:


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## dougsbrew (12/7/13)

i don't think im ready to start talking about politics yet.
i have lost interest since big reds departure, is so boring without her..sobbing in my hands..


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## Mardoo (12/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> we could turn this into the Keating thread.


(Man dons silvered suit) I reckon I really, really missed out by not being here during Keating's tenure. From what I've read he seems a pretty amazing politician.


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## Bridges (12/7/13)

Yep, people just remember that he wore Italian suits, collected French clocks and dealt some of the greatest insults in Australian political history, he also kicked off national superannuation, floated the aussie dollar, took direct government control of interest rates away from the government and delivered the "Redfern Speech". Unlike most current pollies he could see a bigger picture and look further ahead than the end of his own term of office.


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## Bizier (12/7/13)

That video of Keating makes me depressed. It has been a while since I have had a shred of respect for any politician. I wish the Democrats had some presence in the current climate, because I am sure there would be plenty of people who would vote for something between far left and the two brands of centre right which smell scarily similar, though one just got sprayed with obnoxious air freshener to mask a fouler odour.

I miss having a prime minister who held a beer drinking record. No amount of poll-wooing will command that kind of respect.

ED: when I say I am depressed due to lack of respect, I mean I can respect Hewson too, today's politician is scared to reveal themselves and put on this retarded show for the public which only halfwits are convinced by. I am campaigning for Palmer on the sly, even if he derails the country, it will give someone somewhere purpose to rise from the ashes.

ED II: I want Krudd to start learning kung-fu moves off of Putin


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## Mardoo (12/7/13)

Bridges said:


> Unlike most current pollies he could see a bigger picture and look further ahead than the end of his own term of office.


Precisely what impresses me.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/7/13)

For a Rhodes Schollar..Abott sure does say some stupid things

" Dont beleive everything I say"....FFS he wants to be PM..

Pass me another VB please...


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## philmud (12/7/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Pass me another VB please...


Don't believe everything Stu says either?


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## Liam_snorkel (12/7/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> For a Rhodes Schollar..Abott sure does say some stupid things


certainly. But remember the rhodes scholarship in the 80s was more like a gentleman's club and had little to no academic basis to admission (which it does now). He studied a Master of 'arts' whatever that means at Oxford I don't know.


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## Liam_snorkel (12/7/13)

you could make a TV series out of this soap opera. It's a good read if you have the stomach for it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/12/ashbygate-peter-slipper-james-ashby


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## philmud (12/7/13)

David Marr, he's almost surgical. Brough's position should be untenable, but no-one closes ranks like the LNP, so no doubt he'll get Fisher for his trouble. The whole affair is grubby and depressing. Ashby is a slimey prick - I wouldn't trust any out, gay person who aligns themself with the LNP.


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## TasChris (12/7/13)

I live in a state that has the worst unemployment in Australia at 8.1%, where more than 67% of the adult population is paid by the government in the form of wages (ie state employees) or benefits. That means only 23% are wealth creators.

Toady we had protesters in a sawmill in the NW of the state illegally stopping production and the Green members of state government refused to condemn this illegal protest, and the federal Greens actually endorsed the illegal occupation.

No wonder Tasmania is referred to as the mendicant state.

Tasmania the food bowl begging bowl of Australia

Please, please, please vote for a majority government.

Cheers
Chris


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## Liam_snorkel (12/7/13)

TasChris said:


> I live in a state that has the worst unemployment in Australia at 8.1%, where more than 67% of the adult population is paid by the government in the form of wages (ie state employees) or benefits. That means only 23% are wealth creators.
> 
> Toady we had protesters in a sawmill in the NW of the state illegally stopping production and the Green members of state government refused to condemn this illegal protest, and the federal Greens actually endorsed the illegal occupation.
> 
> ...


I'm quite happy to support Tasmania with my mainland tax dollars to prevent pristine native forests being logged. Take my money dammit!

Edit: no seriously. At the slightly above average wage male full time worker I am literally the cash cow for federal tax revenue. Anyone who earns much more than me has creative accountants minimising their tax footprint. Anyone who earns much less than me pays far leas in tax every year. 

Have my money Tasmania!


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## Mardoo (12/7/13)

So what is a good politician? I was going to ask people to name some good politicians currently in Australia, but then realised there is a far more interesting discussion in the the question of what makes a politician a good one? How do we know a good politician when we see one?

I have liked Keating's work because he seemed to look at policies both in long-term and big picture perspectives. He seemed to realise that his personal interests might not be the best for the country and, very importantly, was willing to take the chance of finding out that they weren't. He seemed to realise that he was there to serve what was good for the country. 

Again, I wasn't here then so feel free to tell me how wrong I am. Wait, I don't need to say that, do I? 

I guess I have always thought of a politician as an artist whose canvas is the people, the country and their future. Granted there's a fuckload of assumptions in that.


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## tavas (12/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> certainly. But remember the rhodes scholarship in the 80s was more like a gentleman's club and had little to no academic basis to admission (which it does now). He studied a Master of 'arts' whatever that means at Oxford I don't know.


Hawke started with a Bachelor of Arts too, then switched to Bachelor of Letters.


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## Liam_snorkel (12/7/13)

Then a bachelor of beer drinking. He (or his supporters) never brandied about the "oh look Bob's a Rhodes scholar, he must be an intellectual" line in his defense. Malcolm Turnbull is also a Rhodes scholar but nobody spits it out in his defense because its meaningless.


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## Dave70 (12/7/13)

We need politicians like KP.
A no bullshit capitialist not afraid to tell the bureaucrat's and ATO which hunters to go **** themselves.

http://youtu.be/EVIOmU3l0Zo


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## MartinOC (12/7/13)

Are we expected to be talking about bi-polar ticks here?


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## Florian (12/7/13)

TasChris said:


> I live in a state that has the worst unemployment in Australia at 8.1%, where more than 67% of the adult population is paid by the government in the form of wages (ie state employees) or benefits. That means only 23% are wealth creators.


What are the remaining 10% classed as?


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/7/13)

I have a mate who is the son of Kerry Packers personal accountant. It was him that told KP that anyone who didnt minimise their tax needed there head read.

I have been told some fascinating stuff about KP.


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## manticle (12/7/13)

@taschris - is being a wealth creator the only way to contribute to society?

Working in health, infrastructure, education, arts and culture etc - all meaningless?


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## Liam_snorkel (12/7/13)

Dave70 said:


> We need politicians like KP.
> A no bullshit capitialist not afraid to tell the bureaucrat's and ATO which hunters to go **** themselves.
> 
> http://youtu.be/EVIOmU3l0Zo



Such swagger! 



Ducatiboy stu said:


> I have a mate who is the son of Kerry Packers personal accountant. It was him that told KP that anyone who didnt minimise their tax needed there head read.
> I have been told some fascinating stuff about KP.


Got anything tale worthy? AHB loves a good story.


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## labels (12/7/13)

Hands Up who was happier under the Howard government. Yeah yeah I know, the GFC and all that, but could the current mob have done better? Even really staunch Labor friends of mine are 'Not Happy Jan' and are thinking twice twice


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## manticle (12/7/13)

Not personally happier and not politically happier. Most arsehole government for a while.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> I could.....but prob not a good idea


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## TasChris (12/7/13)

Florian said:


> What are the remaining 10% classed as?


People who can count.....I am not in that group.


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## Airgead (12/7/13)

Greens FTW!

If you look at the figures the Tas forrestry industry is a joke. It employs bugger all people and actually costs the state money to run. The sooner its shut down the better for Tasmania.

Sucks for the people in the industry but reality will catch up with them sooner or later. Best they can hope for is some assistance to re-skill.


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## TasChris (12/7/13)

manticle said:


> @taschris - is being a wealth creator the only way to contribute to society?
> 
> Working in health, infrastructure, education, arts and culture etc - all meaningless?


Did I say or imply that health, infrastructure, arts and culture were meaningless?
Are you trying to verbal me? ( can you verbal a post?)


My point is that Tasmania is being dragged down by the noisy minority. Tassie is going backwards at an alarming rate and employment rates will not improve until the business sector has confidence in investing in the state without being illegally damaged while a complicit state government does nothing.
Cheers
Chris


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## manticle (12/7/13)

You implied that being gainfully employed in a government job was not on the same level as being a wealth creator and was on par with being a welfare recipient. Might not have been your intention but the wording wasn't great.

If the silent majority is such a majority, why the **** don't they speak up? Such a meaningless term.


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## pk.sax (12/7/13)

Probably because the silent majority don't give a **** or are too dumb to contribute.

Read what you may into it, there are so many shades of sheep it'd take you many lifetimes to count them by the shade of green of the grass they rolled in last. Better off with leaders that want to think ahead rather than the naysaying dickheads like abbot that want to drag everything backwards. I probably don't watch enough tv to comment but I haven't heard a single thing from that man that looks at where this country is going and to provide for the future. He just wants to pull it all back into a cozy corner where he can comprehend things and manage it that way. Wake up idiot, you ain't running for running pop's milkbar.


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## TasChris (12/7/13)

Airgead said:


> Greens FTW!
> 
> If you look at the figures the Tas forrestry industry is a joke. It employs bugger all people and actually costs the state money to run. The sooner its shut down the better for Tasmania.
> 
> Sucks for the people in the industry but reality will catch up with them sooner or later. Best they can hope for is some assistance to re-skill.


Greens FTW??
I think the next election will answer that
The forest industry employs 3500-4000 thousand people directly and tens of thousands indirectly ( 2011 census data) .
The numbers in the industry has been in decline due to constant market attacks and lies by such pieces of filth as peg putt and bob brown.
The figures recently released by the Australia Institute (extreme left wing think tank who's director Richard Denniss, was bob browns senior strategic advisor) of 972 employees are just rubbish. The 972 people must be very busy to produce approx 1 million plus tonnes of various wood products in the state per year.
Forest industry is under pressure and is under performing at the moment but it will be resurgent.

Where do you suggest Australia will get its timber from? Indonesia, China, Thailand, Burma, Fiji any other third countries without the forest practices that Australia and Tasmania enshrines?

Cheers
Chris


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## labels (12/7/13)

I am sure that the majority of Government workers work hard and do everthing that is asked of them. But with three tiers of government, a lot of people are employed in one of the three levels. Add to that the people on social security - including pensions, dole and everything else and we now have a 1:1 ratio of people off the teat and people on the teat. It has been published in the papers, check it out if you wish but the ratio is 1:1 Blind Freddy can see this is not sustainable.

Okay, maybe just sustainable with the mining boom and in good times prior to the GFC but now what? This country will fail if socialism prevails and we don't get off the welfare merry go round. It is time we started being responsible for ourselves and not relying on government. Social security is supposed to be a safety net - a safety net only. We need smaller government a fkn big hit to productivety and get people working, and a lot less tax and red tape on small business, then we can collectively make a really big difference.


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## TasChris (12/7/13)

manticle said:


> You implied that being gainfully employed in a government job was not on the same level as being a wealth creator and was on par with being a welfare recipient. Might not have been your intention but the wording wasn't great.
> 
> If the silent majority is such a majority, why the **** don't they speak up? Such a meaningless term.


I have reread my post and I implied nothing of the sort...interestingly both my wife and I are in the 67% state paid group


They do.
The mainland may not be getting coverage of the pro mining and forestry rallies in Smithton, Burnie, Launceston and Hobart over the last 3 years.
The news may not have shown the counter protest in Tassie's NW protesting the occupation of a mill by fringe environmentalists

The majority did speak up at the last Tas state election when 88% of the state did not vote green.

The majority of the country did speak up when a similar percentage of the nation did not vote green.

But Lab/Green we got at both state and federal level

We will see a backlash by the majority and I can hardly wait


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## manticle (12/7/13)

@labels - It is a safety net. A safety net that comes with a big pile of shame and guilt. Might as well tease a guy in a wheelchair. Are you aware of how little welfare recipients actually receive to live on?
Very few would make a deliberate choice to see that as an ongoing life option.

How being employed by government is considered similar to being a welfare recipient, I am yet to understand but it is the second time I've read it tonight. Public school teachers, public hospital nurses, ambos, the military, police, fire........?????


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## manticle (12/7/13)

@chris - if they speak up they are no longer silent are they? I'm being facetious but the term itself is utter rubbish.


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## TasChris (12/7/13)

manticle said:


> How being employed by government is considered similar to being a welfare recipient, I am yet to understand but it is the second time I've read it tonight.


Where did you read the above...not on this thread any where I can see

Cheers
Chris


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## labels (12/7/13)

Governments don't make money, they don't generate an income, they collect tax. If they spend more than they collect, they've got to borrow. Simple maths really.

They borrow by issuing government bonds. Some are bought here, most are bought by overseas investors - Chinese government and alike. The interest rates float. Our current government is $300Bn overdrawn - quite a lot of money. Two things can go wrong here. Firstly, the government will compare our borrowings as a percentage of GDP with the worlds worst performers and say we're doing okay. Secondly, when inflation starts to move upwards again - and it will - the repayments go through the roof and hold the country back.

All these moves are wrong and are short term vision. In any case Labor has no idea about just about anything


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## manticle (12/7/13)

@tas chris- I'm on a phone at the moment so quoting is difficult but read your first post and label's post and see how the two have been separated from people working in private enterprise and by association categorised together. I'm happy to accept this was not your or labels' intention but you have both implied a connection between the two (or at best worded your posts badly enough to conflate the two eadilyenough).


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## bradsbrew (12/7/13)

labels said:


> In any case Labor has no idea about just about anything


And there lays the problem. The current opposition are just as bad.


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## manticle (12/7/13)

@labels - ignoring the fairly shortsighted statement that governments don't generate an income, can you seriously suggest that income generation is the only worthwhile way of contributing to society? Are non profit generating occupations less meaningful than subsidised agricultural or motor / manufacturing industries


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## TasChris (12/7/13)

manticle said:


> @tas chris- I'm on a phone at the moment so quoting is difficult but read your first post and label's post and see how the two have been separated from people working in private enterprise and by association categorised together. I'm happy to accept this was not your or labels' intention but you have both implied a connection between the two (or at best worded your posts badly enough to conflate the two eadilyenough).


Manticle Im on the piss, this also makes quoting and reading difficult!! 

Cheers
Chris


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## manticle (12/7/13)

This is a politic I understand


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/7/13)

Oh dear go.....Christophere Pyne is on Lateline.....he carries on like a spoilt school boy who cant get his own way...


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## labels (12/7/13)

Manicle, it is not a short sighted statement. If private enterprise collapses, the government collapses, the country collapses, you only have to look at the worst performers in Europe who are now on the verge of collapse. All are heavily socialist societies with the government spending more than they were collecting and mainly spending on welfare. Governments don't make money. How on earth can a governement make money which it is paying back to itself - it's ludicrous, You cannot have an internal system going around and around with a system within a system - can't you see that???
We need money from private enterprise, we need foreign currency in the form of exports, we need more people to at least have a little bit of understanding of macro-economics - not much, just a little bit.


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## manticle (12/7/13)

And if government collapses???

Both need each other unless you believe in some kind of anarcho- capitalism.
You're comparing AU economy to European economics and blaming socialism. French government is right, not left during current gfc as an example.
However my expertise is not in economics and my argument is not based around economics - my argument is that we focus too much on economics and forget social reality. The two are connected, not exclusive.


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## TasChris (12/7/13)

First thread in 12 months to stay on topic over three pages...until now


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## manticle (12/7/13)

Which euro/eu govts during gfc were considerrd left and which right for illustrative purposes?


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## philmud (12/7/13)

labels said:


> Governments don't make money. How on earth can a governement make money which it is paying back to itself - it's ludicrous, You cannot have an internal system going around and around with a system within a system - can't you see that???


This is a really strange point. The aim of governments is not to make money, but they certainly have a vested interest in facilitating the making if money by private enterprise and a huge proportion of spending policy is structured accordingly. I'm not just talking about industry bailouts and the like, child care subsidies boost workforce participation and therefore contribute directly towards wealth creation.

Also, Government employment creates wealth, many communities benefit from Government as a major employer. These people spend that money and in turn help keep small (and large) business viable.


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## Bizier (12/7/13)

The Norwegian made money, lots. And it would seem that they distributed the dividends of their resource boom like a pack of dirty pinkos.


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## punkin (13/7/13)

See who the largest employer is in any small town in NSW. Local Government. Go out and smell the roses. People paid by Govt pay as much tax as people paid by private employers.


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## goomboogo (13/7/13)

practicalfool said:


> Better off with leaders that want to think ahead rather than the naysaying dickheads like abbot that want to drag everything backwards. I haven't heard a single thing from that man that looks at where this country is going


I assume his choice of destination is 1953.


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## pk.sax (13/7/13)

If you don't see Label's point, you are being naive. Take it as an analogy, if you run a candy shop, nice clean windows, great display cases, big lettering labels, colourful candy on the displays. Great way to make people come in and get some. However, there is now a recession. People aren't paying for your overheads. Isn't it good sense to bail on the shop and take the good candy, put it on a roadside cart and sell by the street corner?
Adjustment to reality. Not ditching social responsibility (like the idiot at libs wants to) but making it realistic. A recession needs to see decreases in prices and drops in interest rates, intervention in the right places to make repayments for the industry that is needed realistic (lots of them borrow in a boom and are stuck wih debts that aren't worth that much anymore). Do I see the lib/nationals wield a stick to the banks?! Nooooooo. Now there is a teet sucker that's been pouring the common man's wealth overseas and collecting the returns into fewer hands.


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## pk.sax (13/7/13)

A point in the case above, how many people keep separate 'online savers' and whip out their phones and transfer money across at the friggin shop!!! The interest they make on the puny amounts is minuscule, but the population has been sufficiently brainwashed that the bank is for their benefit, they could put more importance on working harder and paying their bills, but that would be preposterous.


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## philmud (13/7/13)

northside novice said:


> you all have to vote .... please , not even a hint of a clue
> 
> 
> 
> lest we forget ,


I love these discussions. We get enigmatic political geniuses popping in to tell us all how ignorant we are, but they provide nothing in the way of an alternate perspective.


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## philmud (13/7/13)

practicalfool said:


> If you don't see Label's point, you are being naive. Take it as an analogy, if you run a candy shop, nice clean windows, great display cases, big lettering labels, colourful candy on the displays. Great way to make people come in and get some. However, there is now a recession. People aren't paying for your overheads. Isn't it good sense to bail on the shop and take the good candy, put it on a roadside cart and sell by the street corner?
> Adjustment to reality. Not ditching social responsibility (like the idiot at libs wants to) but making it realistic. A recession needs to see decreases in prices and drops in interest rates, intervention in the right places to make repayments for the industry that is needed realistic (lots of them borrow in a boom and are stuck wih debts that aren't worth that much anymore). Do I see the lib/nationals wield a stick to the banks?! Nooooooo. Now there is a teet sucker that's been pouring the common man's wealth overseas and collecting the returns into fewer hands.


I'm a bit confused by the candy shop analogy and how it relates to label's posts - are you suggesting that wages should be a flexible overhead that floats with market trends?


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## pk.sax (13/7/13)

There is an interesting idea there. Certainly better than laying off half your peeps, don't you think?


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## Bizier (13/7/13)

The united bogans of Perth would not stand for that, it is a divine right to have more sports utes than your father.


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## philmud (13/7/13)

I think the problem is that wages would float like petrol, very quick to react to unfavorable conditions and very slow to react to improvement. But, during the GFC there were many examples of people accepting reduced wages or hours to help keep their employers businesses (some large) viable. 
I think the danger is that the most vulnerable workers are often the least mobile. If my employer said, "right, we haven't done very well this week, I'll have to reduce your basic wage by 10%", I'd be very likely to find a new employer. The cleaner at work might not. The guy in the mail room with an intellectual disability, who is in his 50s, who was out of work for 7 years prior to starting this job, he might not either.


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## philmud (13/7/13)

Bizier said:


> The united bogans of Perth would not stand for that, it is a divine right to have more sports utes than your father.


I think the bogans should organise. It'd be like Summernats all year 'round.


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## Bizier (13/7/13)

Would?


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## Liam_snorkel (13/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> I love these discussions. We get enigmatic political geniuses popping in to tell us all how ignorant we are, but they provide nothing in the way of an alternate perspective.


 to be fair on northside it was 4:19am on a Saturday morning. He was on fire, check the other threads haha


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## pk.sax (13/7/13)

@ Phil, maybe it can be applied to the more 'luxurious' parts of the packet. Like, across the board, drop wages in oz by a %, increase super (nominal, i.e., good times super) and let the government adjust the super up and down based on current market scenario. In a bad market, prices would be lower, so saving less for the future would be acceptable?
At the same time, companies that do well would be more likely to raise wages when super cuts are mandated to keep their workers happier and productive. Pretty much a self balancing equation towards rewarding productivity and absorbing and spreading out losses. Also a fair bit of natural selection gets applied to business with such policy as like you said, they'd be left with cleaners and the challenged, reflects on their business model. Charity starts at home.

PS: don't confuse me for a heartless Nazi. I believe that people with challenges should be looked after by their family a lot more, they certainly looked after their young when/if they were able. Also, the attitude of gimme cuz the law says so is kindof like that new law they passed in China which allows elderly parents to sue their kids if they don't visit often enough. - actually true story, heard it on abc radio.


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## philmud (13/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> to be fair on northside it was 4:19am on a Saturday morning. He was on fire, check the other threads haha


I did notice that. Sorry Northside, it was far more insightful that a post 4am Sat morning post from me would be!


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## Airgead (13/7/13)

TasChris said:


> Greens FTW??
> I think the next election will answer that
> The forest industry employs 3500-4000 thousand people directly and tens of thousands indirectly ( 2011 census data) .
> The numbers in the industry has been in decline due to constant market attacks and lies by such pieces of filth as peg putt and bob brown.
> ...


Tas - we don'ty use much Tas timber here in Aus. 90% or more of native forrestry is destined for the woodchip industry. Not for actual timber. The woodchip industry is moving to plantations and away from native forersts as plantation timber is a better quality product for pulp/paper.

There was an excellenty accademic review of Tas done a while back on The Conversattion -



> The fate of the forest-products industry was emblematic of Tasmania’s challenges. Plunging global wood chip prices, rising Australian exchange rates, wages set by booming mining industries, tightening environmental regulation, and internationally effective campaigns by environmentalists, combined to lose customers in high-paying markets such as Japan and Europe and make the industry uncompetitive in growth markets such as China. The industry collapsed as revenue dived and costs spiralled.
> Clearly the forestry industry had reached a watershed, and would need to change, or perish. But the industry appeared unable, or unwilling, to change, and most Tasmanian politicians’ response was to deny the need, blame the Greens, or delay the inevitable. The industry, strenuously backed by the Liberal Party and key Labor figures in Tasmania, essentially demanded the “right” to endless public subsidies. Any serious discussion of a new future for the industry was ruled out of bounds, for fear of offering succour to the conservation lobby.


http://theconversation.com/obstacles-to-progress-whats-wrong-with-tasmania-really-11330

Part of a very good series.

The industry has been living on handouts for decades (much like car manufactuing).

A few thousand people employed sounds like a lot but its 1.6% of the working population. There are many times more than that employed in other industries. There was a review of forerstry employment (again on the conversation) here - http://theconversation.com/still-here-why-tasmanian-forest-industry-job-figures-are-misleading-10827

They will need help to re-skill and move to othetr work but the sooner the native forest industry is gone, the better for Tasmania.

Better to close it in a structured way and help people move on than have it wither away naturally as its doing now. People get no help at all that way.

Cheers
Dave


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## philmud (13/7/13)

@practicalfool - there is dignity in work though, this bloke shouldn't need to be supported by family. I think a balance is what's needed. I support the union movement in principle, but I think some if the stronger blue collar unions take the piss. I quit my own union because the secretary was party to some very undemocratic, back room ALP deals. I may rejoin ahead of this election though. Anything to stop the votes!


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## Rowy (13/7/13)

Bridges said:


> Great idea, but I reckon we need a separate thread titled "Dumb things Abbott said"
> 
> 
> “We just can’t stop people from being homeless if that’s their choice.”
> ...


We could also do one on 'policy fuckups by Kevin Rudd'


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## Rowy (13/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> certainly. But remember the rhodes scholarship in the 80s was more like a gentleman's club and had little to no academic basis to admission (which it does now). He studied a Master of 'arts' whatever that means at Oxford I don't know.


Bullshit.....would you like me to reel off the famous Rhodes Scholars who were greats.


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## TasChris (13/7/13)

Rowy said:


> Bullshit.....would you like me to reel off the famous Rhodes Scholars who were greats.


Mike Fitzpatrick was a great ruck man and captain for Carlton in the 1980's


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## Rowy (13/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> David Marr, he's almost surgical. Brough's position should be untenable, but no-one closes ranks like the LNP, so no doubt he'll get Fisher for his trouble. The whole affair is grubby and depressing. Ashby is a slimey prick - I wouldn't trust any out, gay person who aligns themself with the LNP.


Dave Marr as always is very selective with his look down your nose at the working pleb facts. Dig a bit into his history gents and you may not be so supportive.


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## Bridges (13/7/13)

Rowy said:


> We could also do one on 'policy fuckups by Kevin Rudd'


Fair enough, I'll also put in one focusing on all the liberal policy that's been released in the last couple of years...

"S.F.A."


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## TasChris (13/7/13)

Airgead said:


> Tas - we don'ty use much Tas timber here in Aus. 90% or more of native forrestry is destined for the woodchip industry.
> *Rubbish break down in Tas is more like*
> *20 % High value sawlogs including Blackwood, myrtle Tas Oak, Celery Top Pine Huon pine for fine furniture,craft, building, structural stuff etc*
> *25% for peeler veneer logs to make ply wood etc*
> ...


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## jlm (13/7/13)

Like most things I wish we could find a balance with the forestry going ons here in Tassie, but I don't see that happening soon. I had a very one sided mainlander view of things when I moved down here, something along the lines of what Airgeared is on about. I've changed my view a lot since the move and can see logic on both sides.

But......You think it's acceptable to dislodge 1.6% of the the workforce out of a job? Along with all the associated workers that depend on that 1.6% that Taschris refered to earlier? It's oh so easy to say from your home far away from where all this is happening we should just retrain those people. How'd you feel if a bunch of Tasmanians put that idea forward for your industry?

I'm really getting the shits with the Greens harping on about investing in Tasmania's clean and green reputation........I'm all for it, but the absence of any form of policy other than trying to get everyone working in tourism is wearing thin. 

As a case study, I've recently taken up working in a micro brewery down here part-time, and the volume of product brewed is HEAVILY dependant on tourism. If this was to be my sole source of income, even if it were full time, it would be a massive kick to the balls financially, I'm talking cutting my income by over a third. Luckily for me I've got no kids, work as an electrician in my spare time to earn some decent coin, and have a wife who's supportive of me doing something I really enjoy.

What incentive is there for someone with a family to support to retrain themselves for a role where they're going to to earn significantly less and very seasonal with the volume of work (because by shoving people into a tourism job means they'll cop exactly that)?


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## philmud (13/7/13)

Rowy said:


> Dave Marr as always is very selective with his look down your nose at the working pleb facts. Dig a bit into his history gents and you may not be so supportive.


No argument from me - Being decidedly left leaning I tend to agree with much of what he says, but I'm under no illusions that he's objective. Or nice. Both sides have their cheerleaders though, and IMO if there is a problem with balance than it's tipped well and truly in favour of the Bolts and the Ackermans.

The article about Brough and Ashby was pretty spot on though, and provides some detail where the majority of the media seem happy to gloss over. Can you imagine if this was happening the other way around. He's gone now, but what if Mark Abib was behind the scenes, prompting and aiding a sexual harassment claim against an LNP member? It'd be faceless men this and faceless men that. I'm pleased there are dyed in the wool left commentators to provide some semblance of balance.


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## manticle (13/7/13)

I'm still trying to work out how governments from either side of the fence aren't involed in wealth creation with their investing, grant schemes, business subsidies, tax incentives, tourism, etc or what it has to do with street candy vendors. I did mention economics was not my strong point.


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## goomboogo (13/7/13)

Rowy said:


> Bullshit.....would you like me to reel off the famous Rhodes Scholars who were greats.


But did the scholarship have anything to do with them being great?


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/7/13)

After working full time for 25yrs I now find myself on the dole.. Have been for 12 mnths. I reallt dont see either side doing anything or giving a ****. There are no schemes or incentives for both employers or the unemployed. I dont like the situation I am in and am not alone. And as for recruitment agencies....they are just the scum of the earth.


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## bradsbrew (13/7/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> After working full time for 25yrs I now find myself on the dole.. Have been for 12 mnths. I reallt dont see either side doing anything or giving a ****. There are no schemes or incentives for both employers or the unemployed. I dont like the situation I am in and am not alone. And as for recruitment agencies....they are just the scum of the earth.


You have a trade don't you Stu, Sparky? I know of some good schemes in QLD to help support and retain apprentices also some good funding available for upskilling trade related skills. Pretty sure there was/is some funding available for cert IV and diploma related to management as well. Unfortunately a lot of the government funding for skills is based around a qualification outcomes and not employment.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/7/13)

And that is the problem.....highly educated unemployed...


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## philmud (13/7/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And as for recruitment agencies....they are just the scum of the earth.


Their funding model sucks. You might find that you're more interesting to them now that it's been 12 months, but they'll get paid for placing you in any job, whether it's suitable or not. I recall them asking a 62 y/o bloke in Tassie to attend a job interview at an escort agency. Administrative error of course, but it highlights the impersonal nature of the way they operate.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/7/13)

Ummm...yeah...to a Point

I have to attend every 2 weeks. They tick me off and I get paid. Last week when I went in I was told " Dont be suprised if you have to go and plant trees as you have been on fo X weeks"..

They other prob I have is that I have not been on Nrwstart for a continous 52 weeks as I claimed sickness benefit part way thru due to being assualted and having a broken arm..

It grates me that when I was working I paid more tax P/F than what I receive on Newstart. I am not saying or asking for more...but when you look at it from the other side it does make you wonder...


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## philmud (13/7/13)

Shit, sounds like you've had a rough year mate! Newstart isn't much money at all is it? That's why it shits me when people imply it's an easy ride, it's really frigging hard.


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## Mardoo (13/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> Their funding model sucks. You might find that you're more interesting to them now that it's been 12 months, but they'll get paid for placing you in any job, whether it's suitable or not. I recall them asking a 62 y/o bloke in Tassie to attend a job interview at an escort agency. Administrative error of course, but it highlights the impersonal nature of the way they operate.


Oh man, they will try to put you in ANY job. I was on the dole for 9 months when I was very, very ill. I finally jumped at a remotely appropriate job just to get out of the "recruitment" system.

Those folks were awful to me. They literally told me to tell any lie necessary on my resume to get a job, and yelled at me when I didn't get a job they put me up for. Not what you need when you're trying to get back on your feet, literally.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/7/13)

$547 P/F. That includes rent assist.

Take out 300 P/F rent ( and I an very lucky ) and another $50 for power and you get the picture.

The thing that shits me is when peolpe whing about not being able to afford food when they drink and smoke and spend money at macca's..


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## philmud (13/7/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The thing that shits me is when peolpe whing about not being able to afford food when they drink and smoke and spend money at macca's..


I agree, it's frustrating, but it also highlights a broader issue of lots of people not having the financial literacy to use what little money they have effectively.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/7/13)

True...

There is no excuse in this country not to be able to eat properly and healthy..

I can honestly say that food itself is cheap. Its the every thing else that is what costs..

And that inlcudes my kids as well.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/7/13)

Oh...and out of my $547 I can still afford a few schooners of Coopers Mild at my pub for $4 every F/T.......**** it....keeps me sane and I can read the papers for free


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## philmud (13/7/13)

I hope there's not a man here who would begrudge you that!

You're right though, healthy food is affordable in Australia. I'd love to see some kind of voluntary program to teach people basic life skills.


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## punkin (14/7/13)

Theres assistance and schemes.

http://deewr.gov.au/new-enterprise-incentive-scheme-neis

This is one of the best.


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## Rowy (14/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> No argument from me - Being decidedly left leaning I tend to agree with much of what he says, but I'm under no illusions that he's objective. Or nice. Both sides have their cheerleaders though, and IMO if there is a problem with balance than it's tipped well and truly in favour of the Bolts and the Ackermans.
> The article about Brough and Ashby was pretty spot on though, and provides some detail where the majority of the media seem happy to gloss over. Can you imagine if this was happening the other way around. He's gone now, but what if Mark Abib was behind the scenes, prompting and aiding a sexual harassment claim against an LNP member? It'd be faceless men this and faceless men that. I'm pleased there are dyed in the wool left commentators to provide some semblance of balance.


You mean like the Tony Abbottt punching the wall allegation or how about the constant mysoginist bullshit. They seemed to get a fair old run. How about the fake menu crap Brought got smashed on that and then no apology. The Ashby thing people don't care too much about because everyone from all sides of politics HATES that grub slipper.


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## Rowy (14/7/13)

Bridges said:


> Fair enough, I'll also put in one focusing on all the liberal policy that's been released in the last couple of years...
> 
> "S.F.A."


Except for Industrial Relations, Education, carbon, manufacturing, Immigration. About as much as Labor released before 2007, more actually. Neither party will ever be caught out releasing too early when in opposition. If you want to know why ask John Hewson.


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## Rowy (14/7/13)

practicalfool said:


> If you don't see Label's point, you are being naive. Take it as an analogy, if you run a candy shop, nice clean windows, great display cases, big lettering labels, colourful candy on the displays. Great way to make people come in and get some. However, there is now a recession. People aren't paying for your overheads. Isn't it good sense to bail on the shop and take the good candy, put it on a roadside cart and sell by the street corner?
> Adjustment to reality. Not ditching social responsibility (like the idiot at libs wants to) but making it realistic. A recession needs to see decreases in prices and drops in interest rates, intervention in the right places to make repayments for the industry that is needed realistic (lots of them borrow in a boom and are stuck wih debts that aren't worth that much anymore). Do I see the lib/nationals wield a stick to the banks?! Nooooooo. Now there is a teet sucker that's been pouring the common man's wealth overseas and collecting the returns into fewer hands.


1./. Most of the great Welfare policies this country has came from the Libs. Read about Menzies.

2./. The banks are private institutions no different to the candy store. Ask the Many millions of Australians that are share holders how they'd feel about putting government hands in their pockets.


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## philmud (14/7/13)

Rowy said:


> You mean like the Tony Abbottt punching the wall allegation or how about the constant mysoginist bullshit. They seemed to get a fair old run. How about the fake menu crap Brought got smashed on that and then no apology. The Ashby thing people don't care too much about because everyone from all sides of politics HATES that grub slipper.


Abbott's wall punch got **** all attention in the scheme of things - certainly much less than Mark Latham's transgressions when he was opposition leader. And, If you think that menu never left the kitchen, you're naive - wait staff have attested to that fact, but have been largely ignored by the main stream media. There's a simple reason the media, particularly the Murdoch media, favour the coalition - their policies serve them better.

Edit: Also, the Ashby story isn't about Slipper. He's just the idiot who provided a platform for the underhanded shit. Marr isn't particularly kind to Slipper in the story. The story is about the nefarious way that Brough is willing to pursue his political ambition, and the grubby way the LNP are prepared to close ranks around him.


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## Rowy (14/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> Abbott's wall punch got **** all attention in the scheme of things - certainly much less than Mark Latham's transgressions when he was opposition leader. And, If you think that menu never left the kitchen, you're naive - wait staff have attested to that fact, but have been largely ignored by the main stream media. There's a simple reason the media, particularly the Murdoch media, favour the coalition - their policies serve them better.
> Edit: Also, the Ashby story isn't about Slipper. He's just the idiot who provided a platform for the underhanded shit. Marr isn't particularly kind to Slipper in the story. The story is about the nefarious way that Brough is willing to pursue his political ambition, and the grubby way the LNP are prepared to close ranks around him.


When you want to talk about the unseating of a first term PM we'll discuss grubby politics. Or how about the preselection for the seat of Batman. The good news s the juicy stuff about Kevvy will wait until about 2 weeks out from polling day............watch this space.


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## Rowy (14/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> Abbott's wall punch got **** all attention in the scheme of things - certainly much less than Mark Latham's transgressions when he was opposition leader. And, If you think that menu never left the kitchen, you're naive - wait staff have attested to that fact, but have been largely ignored by the main stream media. There's a simple reason the media, particularly the Murdoch media, favour the coalition - their policies serve them better.
> Edit: Also, the Ashby story isn't about Slipper. He's just the idiot who provided a platform for the underhanded shit. Marr isn't particularly kind to Slipper in the story. The story is about the nefarious way that Brough is willing to pursue his political ambition, and the grubby way the LNP are prepared to close ranks around him.


Please link to the quotes from the wait staff present on the day who said the menu went around.


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## philmud (14/7/13)

Rowy said:


> Please link to the quotes from the wait staff present on the day who said the menu went around.


Here's a screen grab that was doing the rounds on twitter. When I'm not on my phone I'll try and track down the actual comment. Obviously her saying this doesn't make it true, but an unbiased media would have pursued the angle. I'm inclined to believe the waitress over the restaurant owner - after all, to the best of my knowledge she has no political affiliation, whereas he does.

Edit: probably not a strong source - it seems that following that comment the media spoke to the restaurant who denied Sascha Taylor ever worked there (who knows? Maybe that was a lie). In any case, I think on balance the probability has to lie with the menu being distributed. Notice no one has produced the "real" menu?


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## philmud (14/7/13)

Rowy said:


> When you want to talk about the unseating of a first term PM we'll discuss grubby politics. Or how about the preselection for the seat of Batman. The good news s the juicy stuff about Kevvy will wait until about 2 weeks out from polling day............watch this space.


No argument from me here - As I mentioned in an earlier post, grubby, undemocratic ALP practices prompted me to quit my union. I just happen to think the LNP are the worse of the two major parties.


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## labels (14/7/13)

Some points. I was not suggesting that government workers don't pay tax the same as everyone else, of course they do, we know that. Government workers get paid from general revenue and their tax is returned to general revenue so it becomes a closed system reliant on outside revenue (ie) private enterprise. And I am well aware they spend their money into private enterprise that has a positive impact.
When private enterprise hits recession, we re-evaluate our business, the sole purpose being survival. Spending less, paying down debt and reducing wastage to as close to zero as possible rank highly. The exact opposite of the Government. When we're in recession we make less money, lots less and guess what? a shit load less tax is paid. Back to the government workers and their apparant immunity to the recession, just like the government. At the moment world wide interest rates are low so government borrowings are cheap to keep this cycle of spending going. When it goes up the borrowings become unsustainable, more tax is required. But where from? Private enterprise has done it's job, paying down debt, restucturing, running lean etc.
Some businesses don't survive or re-evaluate. Simplot, Ford, IBM, Holden, British Aerospace and they quit out. One of the reasons of course, is as fast as private enterprise try to adjust to the recession the government loads more committments upon us, increased super for example. In the good times - go for it but they could not have picked a worse time. The amount of money in the system does not change upwards, downwards in fact in recession. It just gets shared amongst less people.
@practicalfool, you're a bit off with your analogy but somewhat on cue. That is adjusting to the times not pretending they don't exist.

The labor Gvt has made some bad moves at the wrong time, NBN - 35 billion, schools 14billion I think they said, and so on. Pink batts, school halls, cash for clunkers. Mistakes are still being made. Special consideration for the auto industry. Hell we have two 100% US owned car makers and one 100% owned Japanese company. Small business could easily suck up a good majority of the lay offs if they stopped seeing us as a neverending cash cow and gave us a bit of a heave up, even if it's just cutting over regulation and red tape - no hand outs.

This country could do better, should have done better and the reason it isn't is bad government policy or good policy at the wrong time. I suggest Labor voters should try and look past the glamour of Kevin Rudd and vote for a party that represents your values not the charisma of the leader. Same for coalition voters, you're not voting for Abbot you're voting for the Coalition.

-Steve


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## Liam_snorkel (14/7/13)

"The labor Gvt has made some bad moves at the wrong time, NBN - 35 billion, schools 14billion I think they said, and so on. Pink batts, school halls, cash for clunkers."

Clunkers? I dont follow. NBN will pay for itself many times over. School halls were a stimulus measure (kept me directly employed and fuckloads of other people) as were the pink bats. The failure of the pink bats was lack of safety regulations and hasty implementation which was required at the time.


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## labels (14/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> "The labor Gvt has made some bad moves at the wrong time, NBN - 35 billion, schools 14billion I think they said, and so on. Pink batts, school halls, cash for clunkers."
> 
> Clunkers? I dont follow. NBN will pay for itself many times over. School halls were a stimulus measure (kept me directly employed and fuckloads of other people) as were the pink bats. The failure of the pink bats was lack of safety regulations and hasty implementation which was required at the time.


The cash or clunkers was a scheme where you get a minimum value for your old car irrespective of it's condition so you can go buy a new car. The NBN take-up rate has been extremely poor in areas where it's been rolled out, it's not paying for itself yet and could well be decades into the future if, and when it does. Hence, not against the idea, - the timing is wrong, people are just not spending money. Sure, many people did get employed in the schools halls scheme but could it have been better? More public housing is an example IMO where it could have done more good. It was also focused on a single industry. My business had no benefit at all and it is doubtful and unmeasurable whether it had any secondary benefit. Pinks batts was a failure because it was rorted and hence the safety problems with amateurs chasing a dollar. Again it was focused on a single industry and had minimal broad community effect from the point of being a stimulus. An across the board stimulus for all business would have been a better option. Hope this makes sense.


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## Liam_snorkel (14/7/13)

Yeah, your position does make sense. The pink batts scheme was hastily implemented hence the rorting. Re the school halls, it's unfortunate that your industry wasn't directly affected, but they had to pick something which would employ a broad base of people. Regarding the NBN I'm not sure what other way there is to do it. Do it once (replace the copper) and do it right. I work from home a coule of days a week and operating over a VPN is pretty painful (upload speeds are prohibitive) - we have reached the limit of what copper can handle. It makes me think back to 10 years ago dealing with dial up. Ten years prior to that the net was purely for universities, geeks & enthusiasts. In a decade people are going to look back on us today and wonder how we dealt with it.


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## philmud (14/7/13)

Was the Krudd money "across the board" enough for you? I realise it wasn't popular with some on account of how irresponsibly it could could be spent, but spent it was - mostly in retail no doubt but the flow on effect of effective stimulus money is that it stimulates. That's also why Liam's benefit from the school halls scheme was of benefit to other businesses and industries. I assume he spent much of the money he made, at the supermarket, cafe, pub, LHBS. FWIW I agree that the school halls and pink bats programs were poorly administrated, but they were sound ideas that provided benefit far more broadly than the industries the Government chose to germinate the stimulus.

I also want to point out a major flaw in your logic about the public service/tax revenue closed loop. It's not a closed loop at all because public servants spend the money that they don't feed directly back into the tax system. I'm not sure what business you're in, but conceivably a public servant has directly or indirectly been a customer of yours (if not, that doesn't weaken the logic), if they were, you made a profit from the money they spent and therefore created wealth/expanded the economy. Money is not a fixed resource, it is made as well as exchanged, so public servants contribute significantly to wealth creation.


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## manticle (14/7/13)

Closed system in pure socialist theory maybe. As I mentioned before - governments invest and subsidise and therefore are a significant contributor to wealth generation.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/7/13)

The whole pink batt thing came down fly-by-nighters cashing in to make a quick buck. The majority of the installers had never been long term insulation installers. 

Case in point. Where I live there was one company who where used car dealers ( and dodgy ones ) . They bought a fleet of shitbox vans etc and cheap ins from china. Then undercut everyone else and when the scheme ended they kicked up a stink and wanted the gov to pay for their fleet and un used indulation. These pricks even made it on the national news when they went to Canberra to whiinge....they actually managed to get Rudd with them on TV news outside parliament. u


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## Liam_snorkel (14/7/13)

Which reminds me. My carport has half a dozen rolls of batts in it because the scheme was cancelled in between when they were delivered and were supposed to be installed. Anyone in bris want to do it? The work is hard but the pay is shit.


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## manticle (14/7/13)

Or to quote Bernard Black: the pay is low but the work is hard.


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## Dave70 (15/7/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The whole pink batt thing came down fly-by-nighters cashing in to make a quick buck. The majority of the installers had never been long term insulation installers.


Nothing wrong with a quick buck, they're the best bucks. But precisely what happens when you get when a a bunch of muppet's with zero business acumen attempting to administer a scheme that blind Freddy could have seen would turn into a clusterfuck of rorting. 




Garrets move to politics was actually a cunning ruse to shift the focus away the fact he bankrupted Midnight Oil after the boys let him handle the books..
(allegedly)


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## Rowy (15/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> Here's a screen grab that was doing the rounds on twitter. When I'm not on my phone I'll try and track down the actual comment. Obviously her saying this doesn't make it true, but an unbiased media would have pursued the angle. I'm inclined to believe the waitress over the restaurant owner - after all, to the best of my knowledge she has no political affiliation, whereas he does.
> Edit: probably not a strong source - it seems that following that comment the media spoke to the restaurant who denied Sascha Taylor ever worked there (who knows? Maybe that was a lie). In any case, I think on balance the probability has to lie with the menu being distributed. Notice no one has produced the "real" menu?


I have intimate knowledge of this matter. She never worked there so I accept your apology. The media did pursue the story and it came to adead end when they found out from sources other than Joe Richards that she had never worked there. Shoud maybe even edit or delete your post. I also know the restaurant owner. He has held functions for both parties. In fact I have personally seen a number of present and past Labor luminaries at the joint. A couple of retired interstate Labor premiers particularly like the place.


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## Rowy (15/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> "The labor Gvt has made some bad moves at the wrong time, NBN - 35 billion, schools 14billion I think they said, and so on. Pink batts, school halls, cash for clunkers."
> Clunkers? I dont follow. NBN will pay for itself many times over. School halls were a stimulus measure (kept me directly employed and fuckloads of other people) as were the pink bats. The failure of the pink bats was lack of safety regulations and hasty implementation which was required at the time.


Tell the families of the dead people that hasty implementation was required at the time. Particularly when the PM himself was warned.


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## philmud (15/7/13)

Rowy said:


> I have intimate knowledge of this matter. She never worked there so I accept your apology. The media did pursue the story and it came to adead end when they found out from sources other than Joe Richards that she had never worked there. Shoud maybe even edit or delete your post. I also know the restaurant owner. He has held functions for both parties. In fact I have personally seen a number of present and past Labor luminaries at the joint. A couple of retired interstate Labor premiers particularly like the place.


I didn't apologise actually, simply acknowledged that the source in question wasn't that reliable. I didn't realise you had such intimate knowledge of the matter - perhaps you ought to have gone on record, however, you'll need to forgive me for taking your claims with an enormous grain of salt until you do, or until you flesh out exactly how you know the menu wasn't distributed.

If you're buddies with Joe (who has been broadly reported as an LNP supporter/donor), please ask him how Mal Brough knew about the menu enough to apologise for it BEFORE Joe wrote him a letter to explain its existence? 

Read this: http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/the-mal-brough-menugate-cover-up/

The cover-up is so, so obvious!


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## Liam_snorkel (15/7/13)

Rowy said:


> Tell the families of the dead people that hasty implementation was required at the time. Particularly when the PM himself was warned.


You're right, they should have foreseen that dodgey operators (like the ones Stu mentioned) would be sending inexperienced people into roofs with no training.


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## Rowy (15/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> I didn't apologise actually, simply acknowledged that the source in question wasn't that reliable. I didn't realise you had such intimate knowledge of the matter - perhaps you ought to have gone on record, however, you'll need to forgive me for taking your claims with an enormous grain of salt until you do, or until you flesh out exactly how you know the menu wasn't distributed.
> If you're buddies with Joe (who has been broadly reported as an LNP supporter/donor), please ask him how Mal Brough knew about the menu enough to apologise for it BEFORE Joe wrote him a letter to explain its existence?
> Read this: http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/the-mal-brough-menugate-cover-up/
> The cover-up is so, so obvious!


I have just gone on the record with telling you what I ave seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears directly. Not secondhand or by reading anything. Broadly reported means jack shit. People need to realise that away from the cameras most pollies get on very well with each other no matter what party they represent. I go on a fishing trip every year which would surprise you with the make up of the 'crew'. We have a great time and some very robust conversations. We are all eagerly awaiting the election results so we can finalise numbers. As for Joe I don't know who he votes for but I can assure you that he has many friends on both sides of politics. The whole menu thing was just an extension of the mysoginist crap. The hypocrisy was incredible considering the 'joke' about Peta Credlin, the selection for Batman etc.


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## Liam_snorkel (15/7/13)

Joe claimed he printed the menu as an in-house joke but it wasn't circulated - fair enough, I'm not calling him a liar. If what you're saying is that all the rest of it was a beat-up, well it probably was.

However to say that Mal knew nothing about is unlikely.

Rowy how does this sound as a likely run of events: it went around prior to the function or in an email for a laugh and someone has said "Joe mate very funny, be we can't have that on the menu, imagine the shitstorm!" and that was the end of it. Somebody else then found it lying around, posted the photo to stir things up.

Politics is fun.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> You're right, they should have foreseen that dodgey operators (like the ones Stu mentioned) would be sending inexperienced people into roofs with no training.


To a point.

The installers had state laws to follow which they clearly didnt.They are the ones should be held to account, just like any other tradies etc. Fuckers where worse than dodgy back yard mechanics and used car salesmen.You cant go blaming the government for every thing. The gov sets the rules ang regs which must be adhered to. They seem to want to make the gov responsible directly for the deaths... What about the state governments who didnt enforce the rules and failed to prosecute the operators...


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> You're right, they should have foreseen that dodgey operators (like the ones Stu mentioned) would be sending inexperienced people into roofs with no training.


To a point.

The installers had state laws to follow which they clearly didnt.They are the ones should be held to account, just like any other tradies etc. Fuckers where worse than dodgy back yard mechanics and used car salesmen.You cant go blaming the government for every thing. The gov sets the rules ang regs which must be adhered to. They seem to want to make the gov responsible directly for the deaths... What about the state governments who didnt enforce the rules and failed to prosecute the operators...


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## philmud (15/7/13)

Rowy, (autocorrect wants me to write "toey") you haven't said what you've seen or heard, you've just said "trust me, I have intimate knowledge". 

Were you there for the fundraiser? Did you see the "actual" menu that was distributed sans box joke? What intimate knowledge do you have, and have you approached the press? I don't consider a post on AHB to be 'on record' in any journalistic sense.

If your "intimate knowledge" is a restauranteur telling you the same thing he told the press, then it's fine for you to believe him, but I don't. 

Again, how did Brough know about a menu that he never saw BEFORE Joe wrote to him to explain the situation?


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## philmud (15/7/13)

Rowy said:


> The whole menu thing was just an extension of the mysoginist crap. The hypocrisy was incredible considering the 'joke' about Peta Credlin, the selection for Batman etc.


You can't have it both ways your honour, either the misogynist thing was "crap", or it was real, and the jokes about Credlin were hypocritical.


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## Rowy (15/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Joe claimed he printed the menu as an in-house joke but it wasn't circulated - fair enough, I'm not calling him a liar. If what you're saying is that all the rest of it was a beat-up, well it probably was.However to say that Mal knew nothing about is unlikely.Rowy how does this sound as a likely run of events: it went around prior to the function or in an email for a laugh and someone has said "Joe mate very funny, be we can't have that on the menu, imagine the shitstorm!" and that was the end of it. Somebody else then found it lying around, posted the photo to stir things up.Politics is fun.


I don't know if this was the case Liam but I reckon if this was not what happened it would have been something pretty damn close to those sequence of events. It makes more sense than all the conspiracy theories. Last time I went there he was still only serving crap euro lagers which caused me much more concern than the whole menu business! He probably is just catering to his crowd, no one ever said politicians and their hangers on had taste.


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## Rowy (15/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> Rowy, (autocorrect wants me to write "toey") you haven't said what you've seen or heard, you've just said "trust me, I have intimate knowledge".
> Were you there for the fundraiser? Did you see the "actual" menu that was distributed sans box joke? What intimate knowledge do you have, and have you approached the press? I don't consider a post on AHB to be 'on record' in any journalistic sense.
> If your "intimate knowledge" is a restauranteur telling you the same thing he told the press, then it's fine for you to believe him, but I don't.
> Again, how did Brough know about a menu that he never saw BEFORE Joe wrote to him to explain the situation?


I was not at the fundraiser. The wait staff that were stated openly that the menu wasn't distributed. My direct evidence relates to the fact that I have observed senior members of all parties, except the greens, having fun in Joes company. I have been there enjoying his and their company at the same time. Read Liam's version of events and you will probably get the answer to your last question. It makes sense.


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## Rowy (15/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> You can't have it both ways your honour, either the misogynist thing was "crap", or it was real, and the jokes about Credlin were hypocritical.


It was a beat up by John McTernan and the other spinmeisters to attack a perceived weakness with Abbott who was killing them in the polling. The hypocrisy was there for all to see but now thank god it would appear the divisive politics of the UK has left us. For hypocrisy see attack on 457visas launched by the man who was here on one........go figure.


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## Rowy (15/7/13)

Phil,
I will also just add this point. The evidence for your theory of coverup is a disgruntled Labor supporting former employee who says 'I wasn't there but I just know he would have shown that menu around' versus the owner / writer, all persons at the fundraiser and the staff who state it did not appear. If you think that Mal Brough or any politician in this day and age would put their career on the line in hoping an 18yr old waitress keeps mum you have got to be joking! Conspiracy is fine but no one leaves their arse out in the sun today on a hope someone won't tell. Journalists pay bit payers good money to get those types of stories, hence my confidence in this being a non event.


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## philmud (15/7/13)

Rowy said:


> I was not at the fundraiser. The wait staff that were stated openly that the menu wasn't distributed. My direct evidence relates to the fact that I have observed senior members of all parties, except the greens, having fun in Joes company. I have been there enjoying his and their company at the same time. Read Liam's version of events and you will probably get the answer to your last question. It makes sense.


That's not direct evidence. In fact it's not any kind of evidence. I don't even think it has a modicum of relevance. 

You might think Mal's political acumen might make it unlikely that he'd jeopardise his career in this way. Firstly, the Ashby affair shows that his judgement sucks balls. Secondly, it looks like he'll get away with the menu because the power of denial is strong. 

I think Occam's Razor applies to this one. The simplest answer by far is not Liam's (sorry Liam), it is that the menu was distributed, and your buddy has agreed to take the fall.

I accept that you'll probably disagree, which is fine. I think you're biased, I assume you think I'm biased. We both believe ourselves to be the epitome of objectiveness. I don't think I have much more to add to the menugate debate, but you never know. It's hard to walk away from an Internet debate!!


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## Liam_snorkel (15/7/13)

The cover-up IMO was everyone pretending they knew nothing about it when they did. 
Whether or not it was presented at the dinner I doubt we'll ever know, but I'd guess that had it been we would have heard about it sooner than three months after the event..


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## labels (15/7/13)

Getting back to the stimulus schemes. There is a case in point where the effectiveness of these schemes has to be doubted. For example, interest rates have fallen by a considerable amount over the last couple of years. This in itself is a stimulus to those with mortgages. However, there is plenty of evidence that mortgagees are not reducing their payments at all but are continuing to pay what they have been used to paying and have opted to reduce the life of the loan instead.

Lowing interest rates was/is supposed to stimulate the economy but has had a minimal effect, no doubt for a number of reasons including what has been happening in Canberra over the last three years.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/7/13)

You would have rocks in your head if you did reduce your repayments with low interest rates..Makes a lot of sense to pay more to give yourself a buffer for when they go up. And they will


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## stm (15/7/13)

Re the $900 stimulus cheques, a study has found that most families spent an additional $1 from their cheques, and put the rest on their mortgage. Those that did spend the lot just spent it on big TVs (made in China) etc (this bit is just me having a guess). Therefore, a waste of taxpayers' money and net destructive of wealth. We were kept out of the recession by the drop in the A$, China's continued growth and the resultant boom in mining exports.

Re pink batts, the insulation industry in Australia now employs thousands fewer people than before that scheme was introduced. More destruction of wealth. Of course there were also the deaths, and Kevin continues to refuse to release important documents which may shed some light on who knew what when about the dangers.

School halls/canteens - most of the work came a long time after the economic dip and therefore also had little effect, other than more waste. Clearly, educational outcomes continued to worsen despite all the billions spent, otherwise they wouldn't still be talking about it (Gonski). But it did have the benefit of proving that just spending more money on schools does not mean that students are better educated which means that the Gonski billions will also be wasted.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/7/13)

I worked on BER projects. I tend to dissagree...It wasnt just about improving education. It employed a hell of a lot of people in the process...and that was the point.


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## GuyQLD (15/7/13)

The only thing I've learnt about Australian politics in this thread is how little Australians know about politics.

Which honestly scares the shit out of me.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/7/13)

Is that a political statement


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## stm (15/7/13)

Ducati - BER did employ a lot of people, but what cost? It may be that by diverting resources from other parts of the economy where the dollars would have been used for more value-added production, there has been a net reduction in wealth and employment. Google "broken window fallacy". In this case, you are the window repairer and if we go around breaking lots of windows as a job creation scheme, you will have lots of work, but at net cost to wealth and employment.

Guy - the fact that most of us on this thread are having a reasonable conversation and not resolving our differences by violence seems to me that Australians know a lot about politics. Perhaps, in the short term, a lot of people are being sucked in by Kevin's smooth talking, but they will soon wake up to it and judge him on his phenomenally disastrous record.


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## philmud (15/7/13)

GuyQLD said:


> The only thing I've learnt about Australian politics in this thread is how little Australians know about politics.
> 
> Which honestly scares the shit out of me.


So we keep hearing. I'll pay attention when someone who says this provides some detail.


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## Dave70 (15/7/13)

GuyQLD said:


> The only thing I've learnt about Australian politics in this thread is how little Australians know about politics.
> 
> Which honestly scares the shit out of me.


Not saying you're wrong, just that your sample size is questionable.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/7/13)

Especially here..........I mean.......we are political observers who's POV changes by schooner...which cant be a bad thing......

Would rather drunks observe polititions than polititions observing drunks.....even if they are themselves drunk

And yes I am a drunk....I refuse to attend the meetings


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## Liam_snorkel (15/7/13)

stm said:


> Ducati - BER did employ a lot of people, but what cost? It may be that by diverting resources from other parts of the economy where the dollars would have been used for more value-added production, there has been a net reduction in wealth and employment. Google "broken window fallacy". In this case, you are the window repairer and if we go around breaking lots of windows as a job creation scheme, you will have lots of work, but at net cost to wealth and employment.


Can you clarify what the broken window is in this case? People (resources in your words) were diverted from the dole queue, not other parts of the economy. At my workplace the small to medium commercial projects and large residential projects typical of what we were working on pre-GFC (not completely, but mostly) dried up. The national buildplan projects plugged that gap for a couple of years. Things now seems to be back to where they were, which is great.
Larger firms still struggled in this period though.


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## Dave70 (15/7/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> And yes I am a drunk....I refuse to attend the meetings


The first step is admitting you're a drunk.
And in line with my methods, the last step.
Carry on.


Oops, better stay OT.

Australian politics is ******* weaksause.
This is how you get shit done.

http://youtu.be/U3DHKni1mu8


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## philmud (15/7/13)

Dave70 said:


> The first step is admitting you're a drunk.
> And in line with my methods, the last step.
> Carry on.
> 
> ...


I was worried there'd be no Taiwan, but there was Taiwan. If this was how we did things, the LNP would wipe the floor with Labor. I can't think of one current ALP politician who looks like they could blue. I suppose someone could handle Pyne.


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## GuyQLD (15/7/13)

Dave, I'll admit my grasp of statistics was never very strong. 

Stu, I can neither confirm or deny that myself or any of my colleagues considered that to be or not be a political statement.

stm, some would argue violence can be considered a political tactic. Fortunately I don't think anyone here is of that persuasion. 

To be honest I've been mostly avoiding this thread because I pretty much expected it do devolve into typical "welfare" bashing fairly quickly. The entitlement culture in Australia saddens me somewhat. I've spent almost 10 years in the welfare and social services area and I get a bit touchy about some of the typical "dole bludger" comments I see slung around. 

I also get somewhat tired of people complaining about the public sector - In case you hadn't noticed but both federal and state public sectors have been investing (odd choice of word I'll admit) in finding efficiencies and downsizing fairly substantially over the last couple of years In fact most had agreements to find annual efficiencies in their departments long before the GFC and those still exist. If you paid any attention to the last budget you'll find there's actually targeted measures aimed at further reducing the costs of most agencies and departments. There's also been multiple changes to various parts of welfare and social services starting as early as 2006 to encourage greater participation (yes, economically) and moving people from pensions to allowances (which cost less).

As Stu has already mentioned, the dole is a pathetic amount of money and yet we seem to ignore the "middle class" welfare that is actually a scary amount of the population. Family Tax Benefit, Child Care, Baby Bonus.... Because these are the "kick backs" we enjoy as "working class"... And we pay tax so we're entitled to something right? It would be a brave government who abolished these payments but if you look at it objectively, why do they exist? 

I suppose in a lot of other facets I'd be considered right wing; but a country without some social policy is just asking for problems. We already know that social inclusion and education reaps massive benefits as far as social and economic participation and reduces future reliance on services (where possible). Sometimes you HAVE to make an investment in people. 

As to anything else in this thread, all tin foil hats aside I simply don't consider myself informed enough to have an opinion. 

(I'm probably a very small minority, at least around these parts... but we did agree to that no violence rule right?)


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## kalbarluke (15/7/13)

stm said:


> School halls/canteens - most of the work came a long time after the economic dip and therefore also had little effect, other than more waste. Clearly, educational outcomes continued to worsen despite all the billions spent, otherwise they wouldn't still be talking about it (Gonski). But it did have the benefit of proving that just spending more money on schools does not mean that students are better educated which means that the Gonski billions will also be wasted.


This view about the construction of school halls being "waste" annoys me somewhat. I live in a rural area and work at the local high school. Our hall was constructed in 1985 and since its construction was the only suitable multipurpose hall in the town. It was a very important part of our community. It was so important that booking in times for its use out of school time was difficult. Often after school programs/sports/dances/ceremonies/functions/etc clashed and some had to be cancelled. It also has obsolete technology and is starting to show sign of wear and tear.

During the stimulus program two more halls were constructed in the town (and the surrounding shire) and it has transformed not only the schools but our community. My daughter attends one of the schools that had a hall built and it has made a massive difference to the school. Having the extra halls allows more programs and activities to occur in our town and improves the way of life for many people in my community. I know of many other rural communities where this has also been the case. Not everything constructed in a school is about "educational outcomes".

I know there was some "waste" in terms of dodgy buildings from the program, but I think these were a few in a couple of hundred. The media, of course, focussed on the negatives and totally ignored the huge benefits that came from the stimulus program, but because these benefits were not necessarily fiscal and are difficult to measure they were deemed a failure. But, to link my rant to the OP, I guess that's politics.


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## Liam_snorkel (15/7/13)

...and on a lighter note:


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## Liam_snorkel (15/7/13)

Victor looks particularly pleased with his bumming.


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## philmud (15/7/13)

@GuyQLD - thanks for fleshing out your comment. Helps that I agree with everything you said, but still...

How about a more positive note? Current/recent pollies you admire?

Me: I like pollies who have a whiff of courage about them. In particular ones who'll cross the floor (so, none from the ALP - one of my main gripes with the party). Petro Georgiou (spelling?) is one, even old Bananaby Joyce is another. I've also admired Oakschott and Windsor this term, I think they'll both leave parliament with a clear conscience, and will feel as though they made the most of the opportunity they were given. I realise not everyone (especially their constituents) would agree. I also like Nick Xenaphon, and while I disagree with almost all of his politics, Steve Fielding impressed me with the conviction of his beliefs. 

While he's a mad old homophobic dick, I also get the sense that Bob Katter believes what he says. Sometimes that's a very rare thing in politics.


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## labels (15/7/13)

My local area. One school had a new school hall but it's gone, They've just knocked down the school. Didn't get a lot of use. Second case, a local junior primary had a lot of upgrading and new fences and stuff. That's due to be shut down shortly.

See, the problem is the BER was a federal scheme but schools are run by the state government, not the private ones obviously but, the state government would have known these schools were on the cards long before they spent the money and still let it go ahead. It is absolute total disregard for tax payers money, state government keeping secret about these closures for political reasons knowing that the millions spent was going to trashed within a couple of years. It's sad really, very very sad.

Taxes, easy come, easy go, it's just cheap money to them.


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## Dave70 (15/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> ...and on a lighter note:


Best bum screenshot via snorkel.

I guess all his blue ties were at the dry cleaners. (Rudds, not bums) Anyway, wherefore art that rude prick? (bum, not Rudd) He's just a supercilious cockhead (Rudd), not bum (generally).


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## browndog (16/7/13)

rudd the Kakoda survivor, what a ******* arsehole. He leaves Abbott in the shade.


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## AndrewQLD (16/7/13)

browndog said:


> rudd the Kakoda survivor, what a ******* arsehole. He leaves Abbott in the shade.


Yes, that was a pretty arrogant and ignorant comment he made.


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## Liam_snorkel (16/7/13)

"shit happens"


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## seamad (16/7/13)

I think mark latham was on the money, a once in a lifetime egomaniac, couldn't_ distill rudds character more eloquently. _


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## Liam_snorkel (16/7/13)

As Rowy pointed out earlier, no one ever said politicians had taste:


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## philmud (16/7/13)

According to Joe Hockey, Rudd shouldn't have survived Kokoda


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## Dave70 (16/7/13)

I have to say, Joe seems to have whipped / or been whipped, himself into shape somewhat.


_Mmmm_, all you can eat fundraiser..


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## Liam_snorkel (16/7/13)

he had gastric band surgery


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## Dave70 (16/7/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> he had gastric band surgery


He must have been to busy to stop eating.


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## Liam_snorkel (16/7/13)

a little piece of commentary which ties in with the Keating video I posted on the first page of this thread:

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/liberal-partys-best-bet-switch-to-turnbull-20130715-2q01y.html


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## philmud (16/7/13)

I just wanted to post this because good memories. Rarely have I seen a bloke want to punch a bloke so much.

http://youtu.be/kXdcS_7CA1o


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## pcmfisher (16/7/13)

labels said:


> My local area. One school had a new school hall but it's gone, They've just knocked down the school. Didn't get a lot of use. Second case, a local junior primary had a lot of upgrading and new fences and stuff. That's due to be shut down shortly.
> 
> See, the problem is the BER was a federal scheme but schools are run by the state government, not the private ones obviously but, the state government would have known these schools were on the cards long before they spent the money and still let it go ahead. It is absolute total disregard for tax payers money, state government keeping secret about these closures for political reasons knowing that the millions spent was going to trashed within a couple of years. It's sad really, very very sad.
> 
> Taxes, easy come, easy go, it's just cheap money to them.


It wasn't just one school.
I noticed a number of schools in the area that were closed making way for the new super school at Northfield, had recently received BER buildings.
As you said, they would have known.


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## pcmfisher (16/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> @GuyQLD - thanks for fleshing out your comment. Helps that I agree with everything you said, but still...
> 
> How about a more positive note? Current/recent pollies you admire?
> 
> ...


If you are impressed by anyone in the 21st century that believes that the earth is 6000 years old, well, you are easily impressed. Regardless of his conviction.


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## philmud (16/7/13)

Hmm, well, I hadn't heard that particular belief of his and I'm inclined to agree, not so impressive. Mind you, it can't be easy to believe such utter horse shit in the face of such overwhelming science!!


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## Liam_snorkel (16/7/13)

Prof. Dawkins being very polite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSqzyLIBEug


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## Liam_snorkel (16/7/13)

Some more comedy. Poe's law in action:

http://theshovel.com.au/2013/07/16/invisible-things-are-ridiculous-says-man-who-lives-his-life-according-to-invisible-thing/


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## Droopy (16/7/13)

Phil Mud said:


> I just wanted to post this because good memories. Rarely have I seen a bloke want to punch a bloke so much.http://youtu.be/kXdcS_7CA1o


I wonder if they sell Abbott nodding head dolls for the car??


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## philmud (24/7/13)

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/18120862/47-000-stimulus-cheques-not-cashed/

47000 out of 8.8 million? That's pretty stimulating.

Side note: I have decided to set up a Krudd money disposal service. All uncashed cheques can be sent to me.


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## dougsbrew (24/7/13)

some harry enfield comedy -


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## Clutch (30/7/13)

Hey, at least QLD gets Segways this Thursday.
Bread and circuses.

Interesting to see that the law refers to only the brand "Segway" as being legal. What's the bet that an LNP party member or donator owns the rights to QLD distribution?
Even more interesting that my day has been spent trying to find out under what act the penalties will be assessed.
QPS doesn't know, DTMR Policy doesn't know, and they sure as hell aren't classed as bikes.


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## Rowy (30/7/13)

Clutch said:


> Hey, at least QLD gets Segways this Thursday.
> Bread and circuses.
> 
> Interesting to see that the law refers to only the brand "Segway" as being legal. What's the bet that an LNP party member or donator owns the rights to QLD distribution?
> ...


PM me and all will be revealed. I can also categorically state that no member of any political persuasion has distribution rights and unless you can point to anything other than a deplorable generalisation your comment shows your lack of any knowledge of modern day political process. Do you really think that something that obvious wouldn't be found out? Gordon Nuttall, NSW Labor, local government and a significant number of Unions are the exceptions.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/7/13)

That would leave...........mmmmmmm....better think on that..


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## Clutch (31/7/13)

Rowy said:


> PM me and all will be revealed. I can also categorically state that no member of any political persuasion has distribution rights and unless you can point to anything other than a deplorable generalisation your comment shows your lack of any knowledge of modern day political process. Do you really think that something that obvious wouldn't be found out? Gordon Nuttall, NSW Labor, local government and a significant number of Unions are the exceptions.


Well come on, dazzle us with your all-knowing insight?


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## Rowy (31/7/13)

The act is the Transport operations Road Use Management Act commonly known as the TORUMS. The way Transport legislation of this nature is written, if you wanted to corrupt the process, you would have to involve a minimum of about 30 people across two government depts (QPS & DTMR) most of whom you have never met to keep your secret. A good proportion of these people at the time were about to lose their jobs and knew it therefore they would have loved to shaft said politician. Not saying i agree with the decision. I was at the time and still am strongly against it. Wait till the first elderley lady gets hit and breaks a hip or dies and we'll see how good an idea it is then. Pretty much everything you have read in the Courier Mail about this is true and doesn't that make a change.


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## Liam_snorkel (31/7/13)

I do enjoy watching segway crash videos on youtube, so maybe I'll get some first hand entertainment.

There is also this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPGUIpv-JxI


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## jlm (31/7/13)

Rowy said:


> Pretty much everything you have read in the Courier Mail about this is true and doesn't that make a change.


Spitting a massive mouthful of beer out at that one......What? How much has QLD changed in a year and a half since I left?


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## Rowy (31/7/13)

jlm said:


> Spitting a massive mouthful of beer out at that one......What? How much has QLD changed in a year and a half since I left?


Not much jlm but they must have tripped over this one and found that they didn't even have to change anything to make it sound worse than it was. You people getting any of that Melbourne heat there at the moment?


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/7/13)

Wish the same rules would apply to mobility scooters


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## jlm (31/7/13)

Rowy said:


> Not much jlm but they must have tripped over this one and found that they didn't even have to change anything to make it sound worse than it was. You people getting any of that Melbourne heat there at the moment?


I haven't even heard about this segway thing yet.....Normally my old man would be all over it and letting me know. As for the heat......If it weren't for the fact trout season opens again this weekend I'd be looking forward to getting back to my job on an island in the middle of the Bass Strait which has been serving as my warm winter getaway. Hasn't been all that bad though.

Hopefully this famous QLD'er is banned from the things:


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## Clutch (1/8/13)

Rowy said:


> The act is the Transport operations Road Use Management Act commonly known as the TORUMS. The way Transport legislation of this nature is written, if you wanted to corrupt the process, you would have to involve a minimum of about 30 people across two government depts (QPS & DTMR) most of whom you have never met to keep your secret. A good proportion of these people at the time were about to lose their jobs and knew it therefore they would have loved to shaft said politician. Not saying i agree with the decision. I was at the time and still am strongly against it. Wait till the first elderley lady gets hit and breaks a hip or dies and we'll see how good an idea it is then. Pretty much everything you have read in the Courier Mail about this is true and doesn't that make a change.


Who said anything about the process being corrupted?
I'm talking about a _single _letter to the LNP being the catalyst for these ridiculous machines to be used in QLD.
Looks like the guys who import the Taipan SX7 are getting shafted by it being Segway branded PMD's only.


----------



## pcmfisher (1/8/13)

Clutch said:


> Who said anything about the process being corrupted?
> I'm talking about a _single _letter to the LNP being the catalyst for these ridiculous machines to be used in QLD.
> Looks like the guys who import the Taipan SX7 are getting shafted by it being Segway branded PMD's only.


You ever ridden one?


----------



## Clutch (1/8/13)

Segway? Yeah. Taipan? No.


----------



## Rowy (1/8/13)

Clutch said:


> Who said anything about the process being corrupted?
> I'm talking about a _single _letter to the LNP being the catalyst for these ridiculous machines to be used in QLD.
> Looks like the guys who import the Taipan SX7 are getting shafted by it being Segway branded PMD's only.


The bit about Segway distribution rights and an LNP member or donor owning said rights and the set of circumstances this infers would just about sow up the corruption bit for me.............


----------



## dougsbrew (2/8/13)

30 bil deficit, 50% increase in tobacco excise, levy on bank deposits, unemployment up, economy down.
What a way to kick off an election campaign!


----------



## Liam_snorkel (2/8/13)

None of those things concern me. High five!


----------



## Bridges (3/8/13)

Doesn't tobacco related health care cost Australia somewhere in the region of 31billion dollars annually. Makes sense to me that smokers should foot some of this bill. Yeah I'm a non smoker.


----------



## bradsbrew (3/8/13)

I would think health issues from people not eating healthy or exercising and health issues from drugs and alcohol would cost a bit per annum as well. Imagine the outcry if unhealthy food copped a massive tax increase to prevent people eating poorly.


----------



## Bridges (3/8/13)

Hasn't that idea been floated as a "Fat tax" which I suppose we sort of have that to some extent anyhow, given that fresh fruit and veg etc are GST exempt, and if Abbott gets in he's said he'll "look at the GST" which can only mean an increase.


----------



## pcmfisher (3/8/13)

Bridges said:


> Doesn't tobacco related health care cost Australia somewhere in the region of 31billion dollars annually. Makes sense to me that smokers should foot some of this bill. Yeah I'm a non smoker.


Yes, would make sense if the revenue goes to the health sector. 
But I would suggest it goes to general revenue to help with ALP reckless squanderings.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (3/8/13)

Here we go


----------



## Bridges (3/8/13)

Just when you thought the politics thread was going to go away...


----------



## Rowy (3/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Here we go


I think we waste a huge amount of money on brewers who pretend to work and study but spend their time drinking great beers and not sharing with their comrades. I imagine that at Armakeggon they will have to buy old fat bastards beer and then argue politics. Bloody lefties the world would be better without them.......then i would always be right and that would be a really shithouse world!


----------



## lukiferj (3/8/13)

Rowy said:


> I think we waste a huge amount of money on brewers who pretend to work and study but spend their time drinking great beers and not sharing with their comrades. I imagine that at Armakeggon they will have to buy old fat bastards beer and then argue politics. Bloody lefties the world would be better without them.......then i would always be right and that would be a really shithouse world!


Legit just spat beer out. Love it Rowy. Love that we can all completely disagree about anything but still have enough respect to get along and have a good time with people that we normally wouldn't. Looking forward to catching up mate.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/8/13)

Looking forward to it fellas!


----------



## soundawake (4/8/13)

Rudd is going to call the election this arvo.


----------



## DU99 (4/8/13)

Well he has done it..Sept 7 ..who do we vote for Alp Libs or whatever


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/8/13)

Hoping for another hung parliament so I can watch Abbott's head explode.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/8/13)

Yeah..me to........that would be so much fun to see him in another hung parliament.....


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/8/13)

It was a joke. Sadly I don't think his head would actually explode.


----------



## Bridges (4/8/13)

I'd vote for Tony's head exploding.


----------



## DU99 (4/8/13)

Kevin on 7 ...that's alp ..Abott is two party's Libs and nationals..Me vote for no-one just rock up get name ticked off


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/8/13)

Regardless of who I vote for, I'm definitely drawing a dick on the ballot paper as well.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/8/13)

I heard that things like that are a mere phallacy


----------



## kalbarluke (4/8/13)

Rupert Murdoch will ensure Tony Abbott wins (or Rudd loses) this election. Coalition by 10 seats.


----------



## manticle (4/8/13)

I spend my time on the ballot paper making sure australians against further immigration, christian democrats, family first and other backward looking, reactionary geese are listed at the bottom. Always difficult trying to work out the least preferred.


----------



## Bridges (4/8/13)

Much the same as me, the preferences always amuse me though as the libs will always put Labor last no matter what, where as the labor party will put "australians against further immigration, christian democrats, family first and other backward looking, reactionary geese" at the bottom with the libs above them. I don't see why both sides don't do that.


----------



## Rowy (4/8/13)

Bridges said:


> Much the same as me, the preferences always amuse me though as the libs will always put Labor last no matter what, where as the labor party will put "australians against further immigration, christian democrats, family first and other backward looking, reactionary geese" at the bottom with the libs above them. I don't see why both sides don't do that.


Wrong


----------



## Rowy (4/8/13)

manticle said:


> I spend my time on the ballot paper making sure australians against further immigration, christian democrats, family first and other backward looking, reactionary geese are listed at the bottom. Always difficult trying to work out the least preferred.


I actually mark my senate choices myself. No tick for me.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (4/8/13)

Yeah, what we need is another three years of failed poll driven policies, dreamed up on the run by a bunch of incompetent, bitch fighting, faceless unionists and branch stacking, self obsessed socialists. 

I won't be voting for the Labor Failure Party....................


----------



## manticle (4/8/13)

Bridges said:


> Much the same as me, the preferences always amuse me though as the libs will always put Labor last no matter what, where as the labor party will put "australians against further immigration, christian democrats, family first and other backward looking, reactionary geese" at the bottom with the libs above them. I don't see why both sides don't do that.


If you direct your own preferences it doesn't matter. For me it's not who I'm voting in as neither major party appeals. It's more about who I can keep out.

More people should vote this way (as Rowy suggests he does)


----------



## DU99 (4/8/13)

Vote One...manticle


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/8/13)

Both parties are pretty much the same....sad but true. All they are trying to do is to out do each other...

Boat peolpe is a classic case in point


----------



## Black Devil Dog (4/8/13)

manticle said:


> If you direct your own preferences it doesn't matter. For me it's not who I'm voting in as neither major party appeals. It's more about who I can keep out.
> 
> More people should vote this way (as Rowy suggests he does)


Then we end up with the likes of Oakeshott, Katter, Windsor, Wilkie, Hanson, etc that would suggest to me there should be less people voting that way.

The only Independent that I have any respect for is Nick Xenophon, at least he stands for issues that need to be addressed.


----------



## Clutch (4/8/13)

I've actually enrolled for this one.


How do I vote?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/8/13)

^ haha, oh dear.

EDIT: @ BDD


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (4/8/13)

Actually Tony Windsor was a very good politician. Very smart and articulate without the bullshit. Shame he is the last of a dying breed. .Katter..well he is from central QLD...


----------



## Black Devil Dog (4/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Regardless of who I vote for, I'm definitely drawing a dick on the ballot paper as well.





Liam_snorkel said:


> ^ haha, oh dear.
> 
> EDIT: @ Liam_snorkel


FIFY


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/8/13)

We're both comedians


----------



## Black Devil Dog (4/8/13)

Clutch said:


> I've actually enrolled for this one.
> 
> 
> How do I vote?


Well you may have noticed several significant events over the last 6 or so years. Firstly, we had a populist Labor leader, Milky, who took his party to an election against the Coalition and won by a considerable margin. He was held in high regard by the voting public, but those who really knew him, despised him so much that they held a caucus ballot and sent the fake, slime ass, milky, mofo packing. 

In his place they put an intelligent, but not very well received by the public, woman. The first ever female Prime Minister in Australian history. She also took their party to another election and won by a narrow margin.

As this election began to draw closer, the incompetent incumbents saw that their days as over paid, under performing, servants of the public, were numbered.

In a panic and with no one else in the party able to fool the public like the milky, fake, slime ass, mofo can, they saw they had no option but to shaft the democratically elected Prime Minister and reinstate Milky.

So, how do you vote?

Well the last two elections have seen Australians vote the Labor party into power with the leader to become the Prime Minister upon winning the election, ( first Milky then Gillard) only for their own party to kick them out during their term of government, because they deemed neither of them any damned good.

This has never happened before in Australian history.

Milky is a fraud, even those within his own party detest him, but they are so desperate to cling to power they are prepared to bend over and let Milky give it to them.


----------



## manticle (4/8/13)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Then we end up with the likes of Oakeshott, Katter, Windsor, Wilkie, Hanson, etc that would suggest to me there should be less people voting that way.
> 
> The only Independent that I have any respect for is Nick Xenophon, at least he stands for issues that need to be addressed.


By directing your preferences instead of allowing them to be directed due to shitty deals that have nothing to do with actual policy? You're having a lend. I put fuckwits like katter and hanson at the bottom of the pack. I didn't say anything about voting for independents - just inform yourself and number every box.


----------



## warra48 (4/8/13)

I always number every box, including the Senate paper. I start from my least favourite candidate and work back up to my number one choice. Takes a bit of time, but I see it as my democratic right to make my own choices, and not be treated like some voting fodder for the parties to horse trade with as they like.

And I always refuse to accept the "how we want you to vote for us" handouts before I go in.


----------



## manticle (4/8/13)

Careful. Apparently you'll end up with Brian Harradine as the pope or somesuch.


----------



## warra48 (4/8/13)

I'm not a roman catholic, so that will never happen !


----------



## Black Devil Dog (5/8/13)

manticle said:


> Careful. Apparently you'll end up with Brian Harradine as the pope or somesuch.


I sometimes find sarcasm quite humorous, . 

Unfortunately sometimes it just doesn't work at all.


----------



## manticle (5/8/13)

I sometimes find people writing utter bollocks as humorous. Worked this time too.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (5/8/13)

If we're going to talk about incompetence, why is it that the LNP won't use/rely on treasury to cost their policies? Remember their "audit" from last election?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/debate-impossible-when-opposition8217s-dr-no8217-and-co-damn-all-data-including-that-from-treasury/story-fnihsr9v-1226687498334


----------



## Bridges (5/8/13)

Yep certainly do remember it. Still just trying to get my head around why if our media and pollies seem to think that boat people are the single biggest issue facing Australia at the moment. I'd really love to hear about some of the other real issues facing us from both sides. (Not saying boat people is a non issue, just way down the list IMO)


----------



## pcmfisher (5/8/13)

manticle said:


> I spend my time on the ballot paper making sure australians against further immigration, christian democrats, family first and other backward looking, reactionary geese are listed at the bottom. Always difficult trying to work out the least preferred.


Doesn't that still leave someone at the top?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/8/13)

Good to see the libs have got all the murdoch papers in their pocket. Cant wait for the liberal spin and bullshit to spew out each day from his papers.

Balanced coverage my ass.


----------



## manticle (5/8/13)

pcmfisher said:


> Doesn't that still leave someone at the top?



Rhetorical question?


----------



## Mardoo (5/8/13)

Bridges said:


> Yep certainly do remember it. Still just trying to get my head around why if our media and pollies seem to think that boat people are the single biggest issue facing Australia at the moment. I'd really love to hear about some of the other real issues facing us from both sides. (Not saying boat people is a non issue, just way down the list IMO)


My understanding is that the issue is so hugely prominent because several marginal seats in which immigration is a hot-button topic are poised to swing the balance of power in Parliament should they be won by one side or the other.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/8/13)

How fucked is it that refugees and asylum seekers are caught up in the disgusting show of political one-upmanship. We should all feel ashamed that we allow both parties to engage in this bullshit. All they want is a better life.


----------



## Donske (5/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> How fucked is it that refugees and asylum seekers are caught up in the disgusting show of political one-upmanship. We should all feel ashamed that we allow both parties to engage in this bullshit. All they want is a better life.


Try telling that to the average punter though.

I just don't get it, my family came here by boat in the 70's for a better life, I'm sure there is a bloody significant percentage of the population with similar heritage regardless of what point in time that migration happened, why the **** is it an issue that people want that same oppertunity, absolutley staggering in this country.

The other part that irks me, we have such a stupidly low population by area that it's not like we're going to run out of room, or even bloody jobs for that matter, more people means more jobs are required, even if it's just the service industries. I know a lot of Australia is basically uninhabitable, but there is a shit load of low population areas on the coast line.

Bah, the whole "boat people" rhetoric pisses me off so much, it's the worst form of thinly veiled racism in this country, and there are more than a few examples.


----------



## manticle (5/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> How fucked is it that refugees and asylum seekers are caught up in the disgusting show of political one-upmanship. We should all feel ashamed that we allow both parties to engage in this bullshit. All they want is a better life.


Too ******* right.
Really shitty with both sides' perspectives on this but labour should be pretty ******* ashamed of their current policy.


----------



## kalbarluke (5/8/13)

manticle said:


> Too ******* right.
> Really shitty with both sides' perspectives on this but labour should be pretty ******* ashamed of their current policy.


Labor is simply trying to sway the swinging voter and the "centre right". He knows that, when faced with a choice at the ballot box, most lefties will vote for him regardless, even if they don't agree with him on this issue because he knows they will never vote for Abbott. There is a large percentage of the population who are unsure of who they will vote for but think Labor is too soft on certain issues, especially "border protection". He has also nullified Abbott's "stop the boats" slogan.

I agree that the policy decision is a blight on our country but IMHO it is just for the election. I'm not sure too many of the grass roots members would be in favour. It will probably be broken up by November if Rudd wins.

I used to get really wound up by politics. Now I just shake my head and sigh.


----------



## jlm (5/8/13)




----------



## wakkatoo (5/8/13)

jlm said:


> 2jqnt.jpg


oooh, you are in trouble if billygoat sees this. He does love them goats!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/8/13)

kalbarluke said:


> He has also nullified Abbott's "stop the boats" slogan.


Gave him a massive budgie smuggler wedgie


----------



## jlm (5/8/13)

wakkatoo said:


> oooh, you are in trouble if billygoat sees this. He does love them goats!


We should put his type behind fences, with the rest of those goat arrivals.


----------



## manticle (5/8/13)

Jlm - made me laugh. I want that on a t-shirt.


----------



## jlm (5/8/13)

Dunno why you're laughing. It's a serious problem. You'll be sorry when an angora has taken your job then eats your kids (puntastic!) and calls it cappreto.


----------



## manticle (5/8/13)

You're right. Serious situation needs a serious solution.


----------



## billygoat (5/8/13)

jlm said:


> 2jqnt.jpg


They speak my language.


----------



## Camo6 (5/8/13)

It's no wonder some of these goaties  their conditions.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (5/8/13)

this three word slogan generator is a bit of fun: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/05/australian-election-slogan-generator


----------



## Bridges (6/8/13)

HA. First one I got was "reduce the smugglers" with a pic of Abbott on the page, I'll be a happy man if I NEVER see a pic of him in his smugglers again.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> If we're going to talk about incompetence, why is it that the LNP won't use/rely on treasury to cost their policies? Remember their "audit" from last election?
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/debate-impossible-when-opposition8217s-dr-no8217-and-co-damn-all-data-including-that-from-treasury/story-fnihsr9v-1226687498334





Bridges said:


> Yep certainly do remember it. Still just trying to get my head around why if our media and pollies seem to think that boat people are the single biggest issue facing Australia at the moment. I'd really love to hear about some of the other real issues facing us from both sides. (Not saying boat people is a non issue, just way down the list IMO)


more of the same:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/05/joe-hockey-refuses-budget-total

_The shadow treasurer, Joe Hockey, told Guardian Australia that individual Coalition election policies would be “fully and rigorously costed” but adding them up to forecast a final budget deficit or surplus would be “meaningless” because the starting point would have to be the Treasury’s projections, and they were “not credible”._

To say Treasury isn't credible, but a 1 page document from a dodgy accounting firm is, is pretty ridiculous.


----------



## Dave70 (6/8/13)

Did I hear correctly over the radio that Tony Abbot would like to see more of the 'zeal' displayed by muslims enacted in the christian community? 
Or words to that effect.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

"You've got to admire the zeal and the discipline of everyone who fasts for their faith," he says in an interview with 702's Adam Spencer.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013/08/06/3818907.htm


----------



## Dave70 (6/8/13)

I guess as a roman catholic he feels a kinship with observers of absurd prohibitions.


----------



## Bridges (6/8/13)




----------



## pcmfisher (6/8/13)

manticle said:


> Rhetorical question?


Yes and no 

But to me its more important whose first than making sure some whacko mob is last on the list.

On the same but different note. I am in an electorate that is always held by the same party by a huge margin.
I feel if I vote for any other party my vote is wasted.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

pcmfisher said:


> On the same but different note. I am in an electorate that is always held by the same party by a huge margin.
> I feel if I vote for any other party my vote is wasted.


whoever is no.1 on your ballot gets the $$$ (provided they get at least 4% of the vote)

http://www.aec.gov.au/parties_and_representatives/public_funding/Current_Funding_Rate.htm

and it makes complete sense to put the shittest of the shitcunts last on your ballot, and order them backwards from there:


----------



## Bridges (6/8/13)

I used to be in McEwen, one of the most marginal seats in the country, in '07 Fran Bailey lost by six votes there was court cases and recounts and she ended up winning by 30 or so votes. It was great, roll out the pork barrel in 2010. Then they redid the electoral boundaries and I'm now in Scullin. Safe Labor seat where Harry Jenkins has been voted in since 1969. (Senior and Junior) The bloke the libs have put up against him previously had never even been to the area. Shows how seriously they take it. I preferred being in the more marginal seat. You really knew your vote counted.


edit grammar cheers Liam


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

Bridges said:


> The bloke the libs have put up against him has never even been to the area. Shows how seriously they take it. I preferred being in the more marginal seat. You really knew your vote counted.


^ not sure if I read you correctly but that bloke was their 2010 candidate.

it looks like they have a local candidate now


----------



## Bridges (6/8/13)

Yeah sorry, wasn't very clear was I. Point being


"On the same but different note. I am in an electorate that is always held by the same party by a huge margin.
I feel if I vote for any other party my vote is wasted. "

I agree a bit with pcmfisher, having seen candidates on the ground and at any local event they could in a marginal seat, to them being invisible in a safe seat, it is a bit frustrating.


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Actually Tony Windsor was a very good politician. Very smart and articulate without the bullshit. Shame he is the last of a dying breed. .Katter..well he is from central QLD...


Tony Windsor was a CxxT he just hated the Nats because he never got pre-selection......he hated Abbott went with Julia which was against the vote of his electorate and while backing the carbon tax failed to tell people how much he made out of selling his land to coal miners. All togethera disingenuous an.


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

Bridges said:


> Yep certainly do remember it. Still just trying to get my head around why if our media and pollies seem to think that boat people are the single biggest issue facing Australia at the moment. I'd really love to hear about some of the other real issues facing us from both sides. (Not saying boat people is a non issue, just way down the list IMO)


List what other issues that have been budgeted for in the millions have blown out to the billions One statement....when Ruddy took over 4 people in detention........no one losing their life at sea. What changed?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> How fucked is it that refugees and asylum seekers are caught up in the disgusting show of political one-upmanship. We should all feel ashamed that we allow both parties to engage in this bullshit. All they want is a better life.


Stu value your comment but why do they get rid of their papers?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

manticle said:


> Too ******* right.
> Really shitty with both sides' perspectives on this but labour should be pretty ******* ashamed of their current policy.


PAPERS


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

got some evidence?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

Could someone tell me how you can gain entry into one country and miraculously lose your papers onthe boat over......anyone? Please? I just wont to shoot down this economic mgrat rubbish that the wankers onthe right believe!


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

flying carpet?


----------



## goomboogo (6/8/13)

PAPERS. The Daily Telegraph. There's a paper.


----------



## manticle (6/8/13)

Rowy said:


> PAPERS


Don't yell at me, I've had a difficult morning.


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

goomboogo said:


> PAPERS. The Daily Telegraph. There's a paper.


More interested in the papers you leave a country with and lose on the way.......


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

manticle said:


> Don't yell at me, I've had a difficult morning.


Oracle I would never yell at you!


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

One last call......where are their papers? Could anyone give me an example I just worry about bow they get lost?


----------



## goomboogo (6/8/13)

Rowy, what percentage of people arrive in Australia without identification?


----------



## TasChris (6/8/13)

goomboogo said:


> Rowy, what percentage of people arrive in Australia without identification?


How would you know if you can't identify them! :lol:


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

goomboogo said:


> Rowy, what percentage of people arrive in Australia without identification?


What percentage arrive by plane without papers?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

what papers are you talking about anyway. basic ID?


----------



## goomboogo (6/8/13)

0.4 of one percent of plane arrivals are without identification.


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

goomboogo said:


> 0.4 of one percent of plane arrivals are without identification.


Now quote me what percentage of boat arrivals arrive without ID?


----------



## goomboogo (6/8/13)

That was your job.


----------



## kevo (6/8/13)

Sorry if this has been posted already - had a flick through and couldn't see it.

Hilarious incompetence...


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

kevo said:


> Sorry if this has been posted already - had a flick through and couldn't see it.
> 
> Hilarious incompetence...



David Bradbury this morning on Smooth FM....one all I'd suggest except one of them is theassistant Treasurer!....... NEXT and I just started holidays so I can stay up all night answering your shit.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

Rowy said:


> What percentage arrive by plane without papers?


 


goomboogo said:


> 0.4 of one percent of plane arrivals are without identification.


Even 0.4% is surprising because you needed a passport to board an international flight, although once I left a magazine in the pocket of the seat in front of me and I'd only read 1/2 of it. Devastating. I bet 0.4% of people leave their passports in the same way.


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

goomboogo said:


> That was your job.


Poor......you know the passportsystem don't you


----------



## Bridges (6/8/13)

Start here. My point at the start is just that it seems to be a smokescreen so we don't hear about anything else. We actually get more illegal immigrants arriving by plane than boat yet that is never mentioned. Yep some arrive without papers, some are no doubt dodgy, some though need our help and support to start a better life in a better country. Just because some are dodgy doesn't mean you should shaft all of them.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

Lets keep playing the percentage game. What's the percentage of people who arrive by boat that are found _not_ to be refugees?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

Bridges said:


> Start here. My point at the start is just that it seems to be a smokescreen so we don't hear about anything else. We actually get more illegal immigrants arriving by plane than boat yet that is never mentioned. Yep some arrive without papers, some are no doubt dodgy, some though need our help and support to start a better life in a better country. Just because some are dodgy doesn't mean you should shaft all of them.


They all need papers in their own country.... Correct or not?.........if they are true refugees where do they get the money to pay people smugglers?.......Your talking 10’s of thousands of dollars.....but they don't have ID...how did they get to the departure country?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Lets keep playing the percentage game. What's the percentage of people who arrive by boat that are found _not_ to be refugees?


Refer my post


----------



## manticle (6/8/13)

What happened to the 'true' refugees then?

This place has a history of people settling here looking for a better life and arriving by boat.
There's also a history of people being sent here by boat for a shitter life. Which tradition should we maintain?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

and there are 45 million displaced people worldwide. Of course some are going to do_ whatever it takes_ to find somewhere to live without fear of being jailed, shot, raped or beheaded.

I know I would.


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

manticle said:


> What happened to the 'true' refugees then?
> This place has a history of people settling here looking for a better life and arriving by boat.
> There's also a history of people being sent here by boat for a shitter life. Which tradition should we maintain?


For me Manticle thimgs have changed. In the time you are talking about there was no welfare system or at lewst very little so people had to work. We now have people coming to this country that are earming more than they could ever have imagined. Look at the job particapation rate with these people. Again papers?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> and there are 45 million displaced people worldwide. Of course some are going to do_ whatever it takes_ to find somewhere to live without fear of being jailed, shot, raped or beheaded.
> I know I would.


Iran? Contrary to the whithouse view of things the main street s not that different to anywhere.......no welfare though..........contrary to Islam.


----------



## goomboogo (6/8/13)

Oh noes, they're taking our entitlements.


----------



## manticle (6/8/13)

I don't care much for papers mate. I care for principles and sending someone to live in 3rd world civil unrest AFTER they've been found legitimate boggles my mind. How did we become such arseholes?

People found to be genuine and being given welfare because they're not allowed to work on shitty visas is hardly living it up. Even if the only people able to get on a shitty boat are their nation's wealthy, do they need to be punished?
One minute you're castigating them for being able to afford luxurious boat rides, the next suggesting they're earning the big bucks on our welfare system. 
If they were that wealthy don't you reckon they'd have other options? What happens to gays in Iran? 
Can't believe this is the most important issue in this and recent elections.


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

goomboogo said:


> Oh noes, they're taking our entitlements.


No they are not entitlements. The welfare system is a financial model designed to help those that find themselves unable to earn an imcome. If youare able bodied the country would expect that you, after settling, would move into the workforce.


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

manticle said:


> I don't care much for papers mate. I care for principles and sending someone to live in 3rd world civil unrest AFTER they've been found legitimate boggles my mind. How did we become such arseholes?
> People found to be genuine and being given welfare because they're not allowed to work on shitty visas is hardly living it up. Even if the only people able to get on a shitty boat are their nation's wealthy, do they need to be punished?
> One minute you're castigating them for being able to afford luxurious boat rides, the next suggesting they're earning the big bucks on our welfare system.
> If they were that wealthy don't you reckon they'd have other options? What happens to gays in Iran?
> Can't believe this is the most important issue in this and recent elections.


It's not the issue Manticle. But it is an important issue. The people that are true refugees are sitting in hell holes all over the world. People that can pay are coming to Australia. How s that fair? Take the emotion out of it .


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## goomboogo (6/8/13)

It was joke, Joyce.


----------



## Phoney (6/8/13)

Have a go at this muppet. :lol: 



How the hell did he ever get preselected?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

goomboogo said:


> It was joke, Joyce.


?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

phoneyhuh said:


> Have a go at this muppet. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## kevo (6/8/13)

This thread seems to be repeating itself...


----------



## manticle (6/8/13)

Rowy said:


> It's not the issue Manticle. But it is an important issue. The people that are true refugees are sitting in hell holes all over the world. People that can pay are coming to Australia. How s that fair? Take the emotion out of it .


You're suggesting that people of means are paying the equivalent of a deposit for a house in Thornbury to travel halfway across the world, often separated from close family members, to take advantage of our welfare system?

You ever tried to live on welfare mate? It's not a great life. You think those people don't want to work? What impediments are there to newly found able-bodied refugees finding work here instead of jumping into the dole queue?
I guess if it was made a bit easier for them to meaninfully contribute, people would be up in arms that they're 'taking our jobs'.

Another easy target. Not just welfare recipients but foreign welfare recipients. My partners grandparents came here on a boat Rowy. Hard to completely remove the emotion.

And yes - they paid.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

Rowy said:


> Iran? Contrary to the whithouse view of things the main street s not that different to anywhere.......no welfare though..........contrary to Islam.


exactly - pretty much anyone who isn't shiite has been trying to get out of Iran since the revolution. DO they 'count' as refugees, well I don't know it's not my job to work out, but I can't blame them for wanting to get out of there. Not to mention the million plus Afghans and Iraqi refugees in Iran itself.


----------



## Phoney (6/8/13)

Rowy said:


> Listen to the Assistant Treasuer this morning on Smooth FM.....one all I'd suggest.


Heard that too. Him squabbling with that shockjock was hardly in the same ballpark.


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

manticle said:


> I don't care much for papers mate. I care for principles and sending someone to live in 3rd world civil unrest AFTER they've been found legitimate boggles my mind. How did we become such arseholes?
> People found to be genuine and being given welfare because they're not allowed to work on shitty visas is hardly living it up. Even if the only people able to get on a shitty boat are their nation's wealthy, do they need to be punished?
> One minute you're castigating them for being able to afford luxurious boat rides, the next suggesting they're earning the big bucks on our welfare system.
> If they were that wealthy don't you reckon they'd have other options? What happens to gays in Iran?
> Can't believe this is the most important issue in this and recent elections.


As usual you put tne best argument....but papers? Could one of you people please tell me why if you are a genuine refugee you would ditch your papers? This is at least my 4th request. By the way just starterd holidays and brewing a Stout tomorrow......now those papers? One cogent argument please about papers.....just one?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> exactly - pretty much anyone who isn't shiite has been trying to get out of Iran since the revolution. DO they 'count' as refugees, well I don't know it's not my job to work out, but I can't blame them for wanting to get out of there. Not to mention the million plus Afghans and Iraqi refugees in Iran itself.


How do they get here?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

ESB.........Northdown and Challenger my best yet!


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/8/13)

walk, car, bus, boat, plane - I don't see how it is relevant?


----------



## kevo (6/8/13)

Rowy said:


> As usual you put tne best argument....but papers? Could one of you people please tell me why if you are a genuine refugee you would ditch your papers? This is at least my 4th request. By the way just starterd holidays and brewing a Stout tomorrow......now those papers? One cogent argument please about papers.....just one?


I'm brewing a stout tomorrow too!!

Damn those immigrants coming to our country, bringing their delicious beer styles and tasty food.


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## Rowy (6/8/13)

kevo said:


> I'm brewing a stout tomorrow too!!
> 
> Damn those immigrants coming to our country, bringing their delicious beer styles and tasty food.


Couldn't agree more! But.......we need to know who they are and if they can prove who they are and they are refugees then let's get them on board along with the poor bastards that are in the UNHRC refugee camps all overvthe word that cannotafford to ay.


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## Rowy (6/8/13)

manticle said:


> You're suggesting that people of means are paying the equivalent of a deposit for a house in Thornbury to travel halfway across the world, often separated from close family members, to take advantage of our welfare system?
> You ever tried to live on welfare mate? It's not a great life. You think those people don't want to work? What impediments are there to newly found able-bodied refugees finding work here instead of jumping into the dole queue?
> I guess if it was made a bit easier for them to meaninfully contribute, people would be up in arms that they're 'taking our jobs'.
> Another easy target. Not just welfare recipients but foreign welfare recipients. My partners grandparents came here on a boat Rowy. Hard to completely remove the emotion.
> And yes - they paid.


Manticle you do not want to know my early life.........your now entering an area that the bureau of statistics now ave figures on.....you lose. ..........our welfare system is more money and entitlement than most of these people could ever imagine. Particulary amongst some of the refugees its almost 90%


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> walk, car, bus, boat, plane - I don't see how it is relevant?


One word PAPERS!


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## manticle (6/8/13)

My question was about the impediments (legal) to new refugees being allowed to work, not about the number of new refugees on welfare. The idea that AU welfare = comparative riches is also incongrous with your suggestion that they are always people of means.


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## manticle (6/8/13)

The third part of my point is that even IF you buy into the demonising idea of rich queue jumping dole bludgers, why is our solution condemning them to substandard living conditions in aread of civil unrest.

And that's a big IF. Blaming victims makes consciences rest easy.


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

manticle said:


> My question was about the impediments (legal) to new refugees being allowed to work, not about the number of new refugees on welfare. The idea that AU welfare = comparative riches is also incongrous with your suggestion that they are always people of means.


Two seperate issues mate. One is before your claim being decided you are not allowed towork is different to people that decide, through whatever means, to cash upmand throw the dice.......again mate and you are one of the smartest blokes on this site.....I ask you PAPERS?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

manticle said:


> The third part of my point is that even IF you buy into the demonising idea of rich queue jumping dole bludgers, why is our solution condemning them to substandard living conditions in aread of civil unrest.
> And that's a big IF. Blaming victims makes consciences rest easy.


Well lets demonise them over the people that can't pay.........shall we?


----------



## manticle (6/8/13)

I'd try and answer your question about papers if I knew what it was.

Are you suggesting people come across on shitty boats with id and throw it away so no-one knows who they are? Are they all dole bludging al queda subversives?

Freemasons? Ed Gein's nephews? 
I don't actually know what you mean but I'm presuming that few, if any 'boat people' have id and that makes them suspect in your eyes?


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## Rowy (6/8/13)

Wrong mate......most if not all toss their ID's. they come across in shitty boats and toss their ID's. True Story. No one is suggesting terrorists are coming over but people that have are genuine claim are being bought out.......PAPERS!


goomboogo said:


> Oh noes, they're taking our entitlements.


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## Rowy (6/8/13)

I'm up for another jug! Anyone else?


----------



## Rowy (6/8/13)

manticle said:


> I'd try and answer your question about papers if I knew what it was.
> Are you suggesting people come across on shitty boats with id and throw it away so no-one knows who they are? Are they all dole bludging al queda subversives?
> Freemasons? Ed Gein's nephews?
> I don't actually know what you mean but I'm presuming that few, if any 'boat people' have id and that makes them suspect in your eyes?


Your playing cute there Manticle. You don't toss your papers because your a terrorist........you toss them because you can't prove you are a refugee. Unlike the people waiting their turn in the camps.


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## manticle (7/8/13)

So what solutions are being proffered to help the genuine ones while we lock up the falsies in PNG?
I presume you'll be voting labor this election due to their 'we're the toughest, nastiest border protectors yet' stance.

I'm having another pint or two but might leave this discussion till tomorrow. Got dead birds to draw.


----------



## Rowy (7/8/13)

manticle said:


> So what solutions are being proffered to help the genuine ones while we lock up the falsies in PNG?
> I presume you'll be voting labor this election due to their 'we're the toughest, nastiest border protectors yet' stance.
> I'm having another pint or two but might leave this discussion till tomorrow. Got dead birds to draw.


I'll let you reflect on my previous comments mate. Intelligent comment and reparte' is always fun.


----------



## Rowy (7/8/13)

manticle said:


> So what solutions are being proffered to help the genuine ones while we lock up the falsies in PNG?
> I presume you'll be voting labor this election due to their 'we're the toughest, nastiest border protectors yet' stance.
> I'm having another pint or two but might leave this discussion till tomorrow. Got dead birds to draw.


Well Narua have just pulled out and PNG aren't sure anymore. So looks lie Kev's solution hasn't stuck. Pink batts anyone?


----------



## booargy (7/8/13)

If they are that worried about stopping boats I reckon they should get the navy to sink a few. Nobody would know. Anyone who doesn't drown ship them back to tell others what happened. Problem solved.


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## manticle (7/8/13)

OK Rowy: In the sober light of day, I'm going to try and summarise your argument as there's a few points that remain unclear.

1. People with tens of thousands of dollars who are not genuine refugees but in search of wealth, climb onto substandard sea vessels.
2. They initially have identification papers but deliberately lose these on their voyage as these would prove they were not genuine refugees (not sure how - do they get 'refugee' stamped on the papers by any persecuting governments etc before they leave)?
3. Having spent all this money, these privileged few are content to live on $250 odd a week because they have no wish to work. This is riches in their eyes, despite the tens of thousands they spent on their boat fare.
4. This is unfair on people in UN refugee camps so the best solution is to lock them up in third world conditions in refugee camps. Why don't we consider sending them to UN camps? Why does the UN condemn our offshore processing policies?

If people who arrive on boats discard their papers because the papers will prove them not to be refugees, how come the majority, after lengthy processing times are found to be genuine still?
If statistics show the majority of refugees are welfare dependent, don't you think the fact that being found a genuine refugee and allowed into the community but not having the right to work might account for some of this? Welfare in this country is a trap and genuine refugees receive a smaller portion than citizens.

I'm confused by your perspective Rowy.


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## booargy (7/8/13)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_passport

Does this mean they didn't have passports until March 2013?


----------



## pcmfisher (7/8/13)

manticle said:


> OK Rowy: In the sober light of day, I'm going to try and summarise your argument as there's a few points that remain unclear.
> 
> 1. People with tens of thousands of dollars who are not genuine refugees but in search of wealth, climb onto substandard sea vessels.
> 2. They initially have identification papers but deliberately lose these on their voyage as these would prove they were not genuine refugees (not sure how - do they get 'refugee' stamped on the papers by any persecuting governments etc before they leave)?
> ...


Should there be a larger limit on the number of refugees/asylum seekers processed by Australia?

Should there be a limit on how much we spend on this issue?

If there is limits, what do you think they should be?

But more importantly, what do we do when these limits are reached?


----------



## Rowy (7/8/13)

manticle said:


> OK Rowy: In the sober light of day, I'm going to try and summarise your argument as there's a few points that remain unclear.
> 
> 1. People with tens of thousands of dollars who are not genuine refugees but in search of wealth, climb onto substandard sea vessels.
> 2. They initially have identification papers but deliberately lose these on their voyage as these would prove they were not genuine refugees (not sure how - do they get 'refugee' stamped on the papers by any persecuting governments etc before they leave)?
> ...


1./ What they borrow or put together allows them to no longer have a subsitence living. No welfare over there.
2./ DFAT do checks through our embassies to establish the bona fides of a persons claim, who you are, where you come from, coud you have possibly been oppressed......get rid of the papers which you need to fly to Indonesia.....and you can then become whoever you want to be.
3./ Its the ability to no longer have to live on a subsitence living.
4./ they jumped the queue. They gambled and lost.

Sorry mate but because of the cost to process and the unavailability ove contrary evidencectheir stories cannot be disproved. If they had ket their papers who knows. Also the welfare stats do not include thse on bridging visas and not allowed to work. My figures are based on a 5yr model. Welfare is a trap ad a costly one for this country. We need to support those that need it and not accept able body peope that are seeking it.


----------



## Rowy (7/8/13)

pcmfisher said:


> Should there be a larger limit on the number of refugees/asylum seekers processed by Australia?
> 
> Should there be a limit on how much we spend on this issue?
> 
> ...


We should accept throughthe UNHCR process more refugees. What that number is I do not know. We should not accept people that are jumping the que. This country was built on egalatarian principles......if tou have the money to jump the que you should not get a start before someone who doesn't have the cash.


----------



## manticle (7/8/13)

We might have to agree to disagree on this one Rowy. Anyone that spends everything they have to risk their lives in a leaky boat so they can come here and live on $250 a week get empathy from me, not censure. I see so many hard working immigrants all the time that I struggle to believe that all boat people (and somehow only boat people?) are dole bludgers.

Jumped the queue? It's not a line for a bank teller mate. People are trying to continue living, raise and protect families, etc. In many cases you're talking a matter of life and death, not waiting patiently for a sandwich.

Anyway cheers - vote how you see fit and we'll enjoy a pint some time. Let's just not talk about boats when we're pissed.


----------



## Rowy (7/8/13)

manticle said:


> We might have to agree to disagree on this one Rowy. Anyone that spends evrything they have to risk their lives in a leaky boat so they can come here and live on $250 a week get empathy from me, not censure. I see so many hard working immigrants all the time that I struggle to believe that all boat people (and somehow only boat people?) are dole bludgers.
> 
> Jumped the queue? It's not a line for a bank teller mate. People are trying to continue living, raise and protect families, etc. In many cases you're talking a matter of life and death, not waiting patiently for a sandwich.
> 
> Anyway cheers - vote how you s fit and w'll enjoy a pint some time. Let's just not talk about boats when we're pissed.


Cheers Oracle always appreciate your point of view!


----------



## jlm (7/8/13)

Lets say hypothetically that perhaps they're not arriving in Indo by plane Rowy. Let's say perhaps a lot of the folks wanting to come here arrive there by boat. Tamils from Sri Lanka for example. Or lets perhaps imagine that a Hazara from Afghanistan who's sold everything he has then borrows money from his relatives to pay to a people smuggler in Quetta in the hope he may one day bring his family over here one day gets shipped off to another destination......then another.....is urged to ditch any paper work that may lead to formal investigation into some ones origin by the people they're paying money to because the country they're temporarily residing in has perhaps a hundred million citizens to keep track of and really can't be fucked keeping track of transients who're only hanging around for a while before moving on again.

Hypothetically. 

Also CM2 want his fingers back.


----------



## jlm (7/8/13)

Also am amazed by the amount of people spouting the line "Jumping the queue". As time goes on the more I see of folks who "grew here not flew here" (I saw it on a shirt once! How witty!) the more I'm amazed at the lack of patience in the average spoilt honkey. Can't even wait in line at the smoko shop without having a whing


----------



## Rowy (7/8/13)

jlm said:


> Lets say hypothetically that perhaps they're not arriving in Indo by plane Rowy. Let's say perhaps a lot of the folks wanting to come here arrive there by boat. Tamils from Sri Lanka for example. Or lets perhaps imagine that a Hazara from Afghanistan who's sold everything he has then borrows money from his relatives to pay to a people smuggler in Quetta in the hope he may one day bring his family over here one day gets shipped off to another destination......then another.....is urged to ditch any paper work that may lead to formal investigation into some ones origin by the people they're paying money to because the country they're temporarily residing in has perhaps a hundred million citizens to keep track of and really can't be fucked keeping track of transients who're only hanging around for a while before moving on again.
> 
> Hypothetically.
> 
> Also CM2 want his fingers back.


Tell that to the person in the UNHCR camp. I'm sure they'd agree.


----------



## Rowy (7/8/13)

jlm said:


> Also am amazed by the amount of people spouting the line "Jumping the queue". As time goes on the more I see of folks who "grew here not flew here" (I saw it on a shirt once! How witty!) the more I'm amazed at the lack of patience in the average spoilt honkey. Can't even wait in line at the smoko shop without having a whing


What makes you think I'm a honkey. Grew here not flew here........interesting.......you have commented without reading or perhaps understanding what I said. I suppose those waiting in line at the UNHCR smoko line would agree with you.


----------



## jlm (7/8/13)

Again. I'm impressed by someone's respect for the queue who's never had to queue for their life. I'd ask you to put yourself in the position of a person in one of those camps, or who had no chance to even get to such a place, who by begging borrowing or stealing could get out of that situation and perhaps be free from whatever led you to leave your home in the first place. I'd assume you have such respect for "the queue" you wouldn't take that opportunity if it arose?

Your constant bleating about people with the money to do so and jump this queue does sound rather socialist. Let in all refugees by need and not want.......



*Oh, the previous post wasn't directed at you, just spoilt whitefolk (like myself) in general.


----------



## Rowy (7/8/13)

jlm said:


> Again. I'm impressed by someone's respect for the queue who's never had to queue for their life. I'd ask you to put yourself in the position of a person in one of those camps, or who had no chance to even get to such a place, who by begging borrowing or stealing could get out of that situation and perhaps be free from whatever led you to leave your home in the first place. I'd assume you have such respect for "the queue" you wouldn't take that opportunity if it arose?
> 
> Your constant bleating about people with the money to do so and jump this queue does sound rather socialist. Let in all refugees by need and not want.......
> 
> ...


Shouldn't we decide who comes here in a fair and orderley manner? Also should man's natural predeliction to take first and ask later be simply accepted as a reason to usurp the rights of those that have resisted or are not fortunate enough to be able to do so? You mention socialism and I take it as a tongue in cheek reference..........should we start on how socialist countries treat illegal arrivals?


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## jlm (7/8/13)

Indeed it was. I really wish AHB would introduce a sarcasm font. Mostly for my benefit. Wouldn't be needed for those previous three sentences 'cause I was serious then. Anyway, still serious again now.

As for the above points, I'm glad you've put them forward in the form of a question as everyone is going to have a different perception of what's "fair and orderly".

For my money I think we're a country that has the opportunity to do a lot more helping people who flee from their homeland, which must be an incredibly hard thing to do (although I found it pretty easy fleeing from QLD, place is fucked, [insert sarcasm font]), and instead of putting some of the people who are doing this in a camp, I'd like to see them integrated into whichever part of the country they're living in. Helping them find work or even volunteering, learn the language, shit that may help if you're gonna stay here. There's plenty of people out there who are willing to help. 

I'd be interested to see how you'd like to see things happen.......There's been a fair bit of "you're not reading what I'm saying" directed to myself and others, so I'd like to know. The way I'm getting your reactions to other's posts is that you're against some/all/don't really know... refugees getting welfare, against boat people jumping UNHCR queues......Not trying to put keystrokes into your keyboard but its the way its coming across to me. So is a certified and stamped dude from a camp in....lets say......Sudan.......more entitled our monetary assistance than some one from Sri Lanka who arrived on a boat? Not being a smart ass here.......You have a strong opinion on the subject so lets hear how you'd like things to go down.

The next question.....weeeeeeelllllllllllll......We're really starting to delve into the philosophy thread rather than the politics thread.......I guess I'll answer that with a "Sorta? Like I would if I was in that place?".Where's Lecterfan.

Edit: there, they're, their


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## Liam_snorkel (8/8/13)

This is turning into an ideologies thread, lets get back to making fun of politicians!

Holy shit this woman is dense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_1SFf8t-ko


----------



## Mardoo (8/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> This is turning into an ideologies thread, lets get back to making fun of politicians!
> 
> Holy shit this woman is dense:


There's dense and then there's shitstupid. 

And praise Allah, The Lord, Jesus and my kettle that she's not a politician yet. 

Honestly, sometimes I want to start an island nation, call it Dumfuknia and give folks like her a boat and say "Go to, luv."


----------



## Liam_snorkel (8/8/13)

Also, Peter Beattie used to look somewhat like James Hetfield:


----------



## manticle (8/8/13)

I never understood why people want to prevent one nation candidates from speaking. They sabotage themselves so beautifully.

She'd get my vote - somewhere around 64 on the list.


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## Liam_snorkel (8/8/13)

Hanson was on ABC radio earlier in the week, it was a riot, so many good one liners, such as "listen Annie, I'm not a loser, I'm not."


----------



## pcmfisher (8/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> This is turning into an ideologies thread, lets get back to making fun of politicians!
> 
> Holy shit this woman is dense:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_1SFf8t-ko


OK, I'm convinced. I will be marking my ballot paper working from the bottom up.


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## Dave70 (8/8/13)

What would that silly woman know anyway.
I really hope to see _more_ halal and kosher products hitting out shelves. 
Personally I get far more enjoyment from my lamb roast if I know the animal died trussed up whilst facing Mecca and had it's throat ritualistically slashed.


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## Liam_snorkel (8/8/13)

got a chuckle out of this:

http://theshovel.com.au/2013/08/07/jaymes-diaz-probably-gave-too-much-away-abbott/


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/8/13)

Mr Abbott said such painstakingly detailed responses went against the spirit of the party . “We haven’t got to where we are today by engaging in highbrow, intellectual discussions about areas of policy. And, as I pointed out in no uncertain terms to Mr Diaz on the phone this morning, we’re not about to start now”


Nuff said....


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## jlm (8/8/13)

Nice that Today Tonight edited the interview like that, just incase you weren't aware of the amazing stupidity she was spouting. 

She's besmirching the good name of Logan she is (Springwood High alumnus here). We gave the world the Dreamkillers....................................................and..............................................Savage Garden.


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## kalbarluke (8/8/13)

I think Rowy raises some very legitimate concerns. There is a process that our country has when it comes to accepting refugees. People who arrive in our country without going through this process bypass very important systems like quarantine and security checks. It would be very naive to assume that 0% of these people are not part of some sleeper cell or terrorist organisation or don't have a disease that is not in this country. These are very real concerns for large sections of our population.
I do, however, feel for refugees. I have never been in a situation where I have had to flee for my life. I have never lived in a war zone. I have never been threatened with jail because of my beliefs. If there was a war in Australia and there was a strong chance my family or I were going to be killed I would do EVERYTHING in my power to escape. Would I wait in line for two months? **** no. Would I try and get to another country illegally if it meant we would be protected? Possibly. 
In terms of throwing away their papers, I see it like this - your papers show your identity. There is a chance that the government of Australia may not agree that you are a genuine refugee. Your situation may not be on their list. There is a chance you could get sent home OR you could destroy your papers and be locked up in detention for a few years. There you would be fed, clothed and relatively safe. Beats being dead.
There is a very good picture book written by John Marsden (the guy who wrote 'Tomorrow when the war began') called "Home and Away". It is about a middle class Australian family going about their daily lives until a war breaks out and they decide to flee illegally. It is pretty full on. I read it to year 11 and 12 students and quite a few of them cry. It certainly puts the argument into perspective.


----------



## lukiferj (8/8/13)

Holy shit! She could end up being my member!


----------



## Liam_snorkel (8/8/13)

Bloody hell Beattie was smooth on 730 tonight.


----------



## jlm (8/8/13)

Interested to know what QLDers (especially those who live in the electorate) think of this choice........I've only been out the state for a year and a half but I'd have thought the taint of the last state election would hang on him. I know he handed it all over to Anna well before but if I were campaigning against him I'd be running with it.

So he's moving into the electorate too huh? Watch out Logan Hyperdome (I think it may have changed name now....), Pete's setting up a tent and wants to press the flesh.


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## Ducatiboy stu (8/8/13)

I would hazard a guess that he will use the old " look what the Lib/Nats are doing to the state '

Dont worry...in NSW the Lib/Nats have turned out to be a bunch of......


----------



## givemeamash (8/8/13)

Bloody hell, I did not realise there were people that stupid, what a joke. Gotta hand it to tody tonight, cutting edge, high quality current affairs. 730, gets k Rudd and p beat, TT gets kingston one nation candidate!!!


----------



## givemeamash (8/8/13)

jlm said:


> Interested to know what QLDers (especially those who live in the electorate) think of this choice........I've only been out the state for a year and a half but I'd have thought the taint of the last state election would hang on him. I know he handed it all over to Anna well before but if I were campaigning against him I'd be running with it.
> 
> So he's moving into the electorate too huh? Watch out Logan Hyperdome (I think it may have changed name now....), Pete's setting up a tent and wants to press the flesh.


did not think much of premier pete, but after hearing he incumbent member try and bag him and sounding as though he did not know his arse from his nose, pete is a good option


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## lukiferj (8/8/13)

Nope. Still called the hyperdome. Or bogandome, in loganholme. Or boganholme. I could go on...


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## punkin (9/8/13)

Mardoo said:


> There's dense and then there's shitstupid.
> 
> And praise Allah, The Lord, Jesus and my kettle that she's not a politician yet.
> 
> Honestly, sometimes I want to start an island nation, call it Dumfuknia and give folks like her a boat and say "Go to, luv."



Been done.

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Golgafrincham


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## Dave70 (9/8/13)

Is Rudd upholding some proud labor tradition of brutal handshaking here?

http://youtu.be/p3dKWqFFLxQ


http://youtu.be/hReBMauqhrY

_Ouch._


----------



## Liam_snorkel (9/8/13)

this is an absolute pisser:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ba3D_mTd7U

SHAAAMMEE


----------



## Dave70 (9/8/13)

Clearly a fan of Zeitgeist.
Or Derrin Hinch.


----------



## philmud (9/8/13)

Anyone feel like calling this thing? Objectively, who'll win? I think it's close, but I suspect the LNP might hold on. Mostly because the electorate are a pack if ignorant [email protected]#ts.


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## philmud (9/8/13)

Also, some of you blokes are way behind. We're not worries about asylum seekers being terrorists anymore, we just want to save the poor bastards from drowning at sea. **** stopping the boats, I say the slogan should be "FIX THE BOATS"


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## manticle (9/8/13)

Catch up buddy. We're all about stopping the goats now.
And the goatse. Stop that shit quick smart.


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## Northside Novice (10/8/13)

lukiferj said:


> Nope. Still called the hyperdome. Or bogandome, in loganholme. Or boganholme. I could go on...


man I remember when there was a cool water slide park on that site ! my cousins house backed onto it and we used to just jump over and slide away .
the park had one of those big floating taps , really pist me off when it got bulldozed for the hyperdome


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## philmud (10/8/13)

I'm all for stopping the goatse, but not at the expense of blue waffle. A balance must be struck!

Edit: smelling pistake


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## lukiferj (10/8/13)

northside novice said:


> man I remember when there was a cool water slide park on that site ! my cousins house backed onto it and we used to just jump over and slide away .
> the park had one of those big floating taps , really pist me off when it got bulldozed for the hyperdome


Same. Its where I had swimming lessons in primary school. Ha ha.


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## jlm (10/8/13)

lukiferj said:


> Same. Its where I had swimming lessons in primary school. Ha ha.


Wild Waters. Remember it well.


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## Dave70 (10/8/13)

Phil Mud said:


> Anyone feel like calling this thing? Objectively, who'll win? I think it's close, but I suspect the LNP might hold on. Mostly because the electorate are a pack if ignorant [email protected]#ts.


So if the ALP get up, its a victory for enlightened *****?


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## Dave70 (10/8/13)

*****


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## Dave70 (10/8/13)

Dave70 said:


> c*nts


HA! _clever.._


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/13)

Ask Rupert.....he is doing his best


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## philmud (10/8/13)

Dave70 said:


> So if the ALP get up, its a victory for enlightened c*nts?


Well a phyrric victory anyway. There's barely daylight between them.


----------



## kalbarluke (10/8/13)

The betting agencies have the LNP by 10.5 seats. They are usually fairly accurate BUT four weeks is an eternity in the lead up to an election. All it takes is one "Tampa" or "how much GST would you pay for a cake?" incident and anything can happen.


----------



## pcmfisher (10/8/13)

Phil Mud said:


> Anyone feel like calling this thing? Objectively, who'll win? I think it's close, but I suspect the LNP might hold on. Mostly because the electorate are a pack if ignorant [email protected]#ts.


Yes, I will have a go.

LNP by 10 seats. Labor are still going to get punished in NSW.


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## Ducatiboy stu (10/8/13)

Yes NSW will punish labour.......unfortunatly it is allowing O'Farell a clear run at screwing us over


----------



## mwd (11/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> This is turning into an ideologies thread, lets get back to making fun of politicians!
> 
> Holy shit this woman is dense:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_1SFf8t-ko


I see that One Nation has decided to drop the Brain of Brisbane. I would have thought her and Pauline would make a great team.

Hundreds of jobs in jeopardy she was asking what time is the next bus to Jeopardy.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/13)

Haha....an economy budget.


----------



## browndog (11/8/13)

Phil Mud said:


> Anyone feel like calling this thing? Objectively, who'll win? I think it's close, but I suspect the LNP might hold on. Mostly because the electorate are a pack if ignorant [email protected]#ts.


What a conceited arsehole you are sport.


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## Liam_snorkel (11/8/13)

Hehe: 

http://smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/liberals-deny-buying-twitter-fans-for-tony-abbott-20130811-2rpt2.html


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (11/8/13)

Did the ABC Vote Compass.....interesting.


----------



## OzPaleAle (11/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Did the ABC Vote Compass.....interesting.


Just did it myself, ended up somewhere between greens and alp.

Couldn't see the link to it in the last few pages so not sure if it has been posted but here it is.

http://australia.votecompass.com


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## punkin (12/8/13)

That was interesting. Didn't think i'd fall that far to the left and certainly never would have thought that i'd align that much with the Greens who go last on any election paper if fill in.

I think my left rating would be more consistent with how my mates see me than how i see myself. Like i said, interesting.


----------



## Donske (12/8/13)

Apparently I allign strongly with the LNP which is a bit odd as I've always considered myself as being slightly left in my views.


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## Liam_snorkel (12/8/13)

^ yeah, it's good to see how your views actually stack up against the parties official policy positions instead of instinctive "X party good, Y party bad"


----------



## OzPaleAle (12/8/13)

I notice they dont have any of the minor parties listed on the graph, would be interesting to see whether some of them are a closer fit.
Perhaps there is not enough policy information available to include them accurately.


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## mash head (12/8/13)

I am sure it would tell me that I should vote for the greens, but there is no ******* way. Ive seen enough of them to know how looney they are. Labour for siding with them will not get my vote either, so whos left??


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## Liam_snorkel (12/8/13)

did you even do the quiz, and did you go through the individual policies at the end to see _why_ it aligned you with whatever party?


----------



## mash head (12/8/13)

> did you even do the quiz, and did you go through the individual policies at the end to see _why_ it aligned you with whatever party?


Does it matter??
Should I trust a computer program that tells me who I should vote for??
Ive seen enough manipulation of media in the last couple of years to be very cynical.
I know my ideals and am sure the fact that I care about the environment around me would align me with the Green tools, but they are not even on the same book as me.


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## Liam_snorkel (12/8/13)

you sir are a genius.


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## mash head (12/8/13)

Is it now time to take my hat off and bow??


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## Liam_snorkel (12/8/13)

:beerbang: hehe yep!


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## Dave70 (12/8/13)

mash head said:


> so whos left??


Oh no, don't vote left FFS. I hear they're all hipsters.

Did anybody catch the debate?
Rudd reminds me of the bloke who looks sharp in the gym hitting the heavy bag, then goes flaccid in the ring once he's being counter punched. 

Abbots ears poke out to much for my liking, which I think is as good a reason as any not to vote LNP.


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## Liam_snorkel (12/8/13)

"No one, however smart, however well-educated, however well-experienced, is the suppository of all wisdom." - Tony Abbott.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10911435


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## Dave70 (12/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> This is turning into an ideologies thread, lets get back to making fun of politicians!


_Gross..._



http://youtu.be/_ipvdBnU8F8


----------



## mash head (12/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> "No one, however smart, however well-educated, however well-experienced, is the suppository of all wisdom." - Tony Abbott.
> 
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10911435


You can stick that idea up your arse!!


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## Liam_snorkel (12/8/13)

thanks for the up-date


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## punkin (13/8/13)

That little quizz didn't tell you who to vote for?


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## Liam_snorkel (13/8/13)

Nope. It just tells you how strongly you agree/disagrees with the LNP/labor/Greens on a whole bunch of policy areas.


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## komodo (13/8/13)

More left that I would have thought but I'm not surprised to be fairly central between the two majors. Greens can get fucked.
As for asylum seekers - **** mate do something about the ones over staying student visas and shit first and speed up the process for asylum seekers.
NBN I think FTTP is the way forward and I just think ultimately you're investing in an infrastructure project.
I voted ALP last election but I doubt I'll do it again. As someone who manages a business in manufacturing I don't think the ALP has done enough for the economy to instil confidence in the private sector.
Gay marriage argument can suck my nut. Human rights issue - pigs arse. Not in this country its not. Look at what Russia is doing. If you're gay here then **** me lifes pretty ******* rosey by comparison.

http://www.liberal.org.au/our-policies
http://www.alp.org.a...y_announcements


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## manticle (13/8/13)

Yes because we should base how we treat our citizens on what happens in Russia.


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## komodo (13/8/13)

Alright what I want to know is what difference does it actually make?

Same sex relationships are already recognised. One of my former employees went through a "divorce", for want of a better word, when his same sex de facto partner left him. He lost half his assets etc. same way it would happen in a 'traditional' divorce/separation. 

Being that most marriages are performed in some form of house of religion I don't think its fair to suggest that 'religion' should be kept separate from the argument when discussing marriage and being that most traditional religions aren't in favour of it then why should it be thrust upon them?

I'm all for recognition of same sex relationships - but call it something else.

As for comparing us to Russia. I'm suggesting put it into perspective. In Russia (and many other countries) gay rights ARE a human rights issue. Gay people are killed in some countries. People who even associate with gay people are killed. Here in Australia we're talking about a word and a piece of paper...


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## Liam_snorkel (13/8/13)

Proof that there are no logical arguments against it.


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## komodo (13/8/13)

I'm not saying my argument against it is great - I'm asking WHY is it such an issue at all?


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## Liam_snorkel (13/8/13)

you should ask the people who who want to block it I suppose. Or maybe you should watch Insight tonight on SBS.

http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/overview/563/Gay-Marriage


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## manticle (13/8/13)

Komodo said:


> I'm not saying my argument against it is great - I'm asking WHY is it such an issue at all?


It's an issue because if same sex relationships are not given identical treatment to hetero ones then you create an arbritary hierarchy on relationships between consenting adults.

I agree it shouldn't be an issue but it's been made one by conservatives making the decision that some relationships mean more than others. Recognise people's right to wed if they want to and it's no longer an issue.

Considering it's an important issue for most liberal democracies in first world countries, including US and NZ, it makes sense that we address it.


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## manticle (13/8/13)

For what it's worth, I think churches should have the right to employ their own conditions on marriage ceremonies. There are non-religious means to the same end (and gay friendly religious churches and the ability to begin one in this country should one see a need).

I don't think churches need to be forced to celebrate gay weddings - just that gay weddings should be enabled and recognised in a legal framework. 


Conservative churches will just show how irrelevant they are to modern western life anyway.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/8/13)

Rudd has well and truly wedged Abbott on this issue.


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## manticle (13/8/13)

A little analogy Komodo - Imagine if, way back in the 70s when we we were trying to decide if the indigenous should be recognised as citizens we said 'we will offer you voting rights, rights to legal counsel when needed and all other rights that white citizens are entitled to BUT we won't call you citizens.

Formality or insult? Citizens in the same country need to be treated the same in name and function regardless of gender, race or sexuality.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/8/13)

manticle said:


> A little analogy Komodo - Imagine if, way back in the 70s when we we were trying to decide if the indigenous should be recognised as citizens we said 'we will offer you voting rights, rights to legal counsel when needed and all other rights that white citizens are entitled to BUT we won't call you citizens.


If it was the 60's thats prob what would have happened.


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## manticle (13/8/13)

We've still got a long, long way to go with that too and it's something I'd be keen to hear more about from both sides as well as smaller parties. Forget goat people - what about the people that already live here?


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## manticle (13/8/13)

And sorry for the multiple postings komodo but I'm typing on a phone.

Your comparison with russia doesn't cut it for me. We are not russia, we take pride in the fact that we afford certain rights and protections to the populace that separate us as a nation from them (legal context) and others.

You can't tell a rape victim here that they would have copped it worse in Iran and expect that anyone should consider you capable of serious debate.

Perspective is one thing - I'm grateful every day that I'm not a peasant in Europe in the dark ages but that doesn't stop me asking for a pay rise after 10 years of service on the same fixed pay band. Could be worse sure but could be a hell of a lot better too.


----------



## Bridges (13/8/13)

Damn straight we've got a long way to go. Today the leader of the coalition when asked to list the qualities of one of his parties candidates felt the need to include "she has sex appeal". WTF. Must be all the suppositories, or he could just be stuck in the 50's.


----------



## nu_brew (13/8/13)

I think this is good analysis...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnGhFJ_mZ88&feature=youtu.be

Gets to the Australian stuff a couple of minutes in but worth watching for full effect.


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## Ducatiboy stu (13/8/13)

That was pretty funny.


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## punkin (14/8/13)

Komodo said:


> votecompass.jpg



That picture makes my one look funny. I didn't take a screen shot but at first i thought they hadn't put the red dot for Labour in there.

The reason i couldn't see it was that my grey dot was so squarely over the red that you could just barely see a fuzzy red outline round the grey 


ThatDidNotSurpriseMePunkin


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## djar007 (14/8/13)

Mine was the same punkin . smack bang on n top of Labor. I was hoping to be different. Just like everyone else.


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## Dave70 (14/8/13)

manticle said:


> For what it's worth, I think churches should have the right to employ their own conditions on marriage ceremonies. There are non-religious means to the same end (and gay friendly religious churches and the ability to begin one in this country should one see a need).
> 
> I don't think churches need to be forced to celebrate gay weddings - just that gay weddings should be enabled and recognised in a legal framework.
> 
> ...


If the law of the land states that gay marriage is legal, no church, mosque or synagogue has the right of refusal far as I'm concerned. Religious 'law' should never be allowed equal footing, let alone circumvent civil law in a secular society. And since homosexuality is regarded an abomination across the board by all the Abrahamic religions, it's obvious agents of the 'gay friendly' religion's are letting their natural sense of morality act as their guide rather than 1st century text calling for their murder, much to their credit. They should really just discard their clerical collars in the bin on the way out the door and be done with it.

Every church is by definition, conservative. In the worst way. 

I also find the idea that a gay person should want to love - receive the blessing from - god, in light of his instructions in Leviticus and so on kind of bizarre and / or masochistic. Even the hippie Jesus commanded 'every jot and tittle of the law shall be fulfilled' in between handing out fish and rolls. Whatever floats ya boat, I guess.


Not arguing with you here mant's, by the way, just my opinion on the issue.


----------



## komodo (14/8/13)

> And sorry for the multiple postings komodo but I'm typing on a phone.


All good. The discussion is good



> You can't tell a rape victim here that they would have copped it worse in Iran and expect that anyone should consider you capable of serious debate.


No, but the fact is people should be able to walk freely and NOT be raped - that's a human right. Much like basic access to water fit for human consumption is a human right. Gay marriage - first world problem.



> If the law of the land states that gay marriage is legal, no church, mosque or synagogue has the right of refusal far as I'm concerned.


WHAT? Are you serious? Even a civil celebrant has the right to refuse to marry a heterosexual couple. Why should the church be any different?
If gay marriage is passed surely the church has right to refuse to marry gay couples. Much like Muslims have the right to refuse to eat food that's not halal. Its a choice. Surely gay marriage is a choice issue and if giving gays the choice is taking away the choice from the church then I go from marginally opposed to being in die hard opposition.
Basically your suggestion is to give a right to one minority and take that same right (the right of choice) away from another. Well done.

As I've said I'm not opposed to gay civil unions. Give them a certificate the full bit. I don't even care if they are commonly referred to as marriages. BUT I would rather see that on official documentation that they are referred to as a civil union (or similar).


----------



## Liam_snorkel (14/8/13)

So England and NZ got it wrong? How does that stack up against manticle's point at the top of the page?


----------



## manticle (14/8/13)

Komodo said:


> All good. The discussion is good
> 
> No, but the fact is people should be able to walk freely and NOT be raped - that's a human right. Much like basic access to water fit for human consumption is a human right. Gay marriage - first world problem.
> 
> ...



I contend that human beings inside a political system like a liberal democracy have the right to be treated equally under the law. Call it a human right, call it a first world problem but there is no reason - NONE- that makes any logical sense as to why the legal rights or appellations should be any different for different, consenting adults. Again I don't believe churches should be forced to celebrate any more than I believe a Men's club or fraternity should be forced to into accepting female members but there should be an avenue for identical (not 'almost the same') treatment.

If it's such a small issue/non issue why are so many people opposed to it? That's what makes it an issue. Yes you can get married but do you mind just calling it something else because really your relationship makes me feel a bit dirty? Yes you can come to the dinner but please sit up the back and pretend you're not here.


----------



## OzPaleAle (14/8/13)

Heard an interesting angle on wether we should subsidise the car industry from Jeff Kennett on the radio the other day.

He pointed out that its important to maintain a car industry from a national defence point of view.
He said that its important for a country to have a local manufacturer so that in the unlikely event of needing to manufacture our own military vehicles etc we are able to.
Car manufacturing needs to be maintained because their assembly lines are the best suited to be reconfigured for this purpose and more importantly is to maintain that stream of people with the skill-set to manufacture vehicles.

An interesting angle I hadn't considered, plenty of things I would disagree with Jeff on but I kinda agree on this.


----------



## sponge (14/8/13)

I am of the opinion that if two people choose to make their relationship a legal commitment, they should be treated the same, no matter which sexes it's between, and be allowed to legally call it a marriage with all the same laws/rights/etc. Who cares who the two people in a relationship are, they are just happy to spend their lives with each other, and if you don't like it, turn the other way.

I do not believe though that churches/celebrants should have to wed a couple, be heterosexual or homosexual, if they do not believe in the union of the couple, for lack of a better term. The couple can always go elsewhere to get wed, so it's not like they're removing the right completely, and there would be plenty of churches and celebrants who would be happy to wed a couple of any orientation. I do not believe that someone should have to go against what they believe in, for whatever reason, in order to fulfill someone elses request. I see it similar to an organisation/company/business not tendering for a project because of moral/financial/safety/religious regions. If they don't want the business, they don't have to take it..

Probably a pretty poor comparison, but of a similar mentality.


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## komodo (14/8/13)

I'm in a polyamorous relationship. I can't marry both my partners. No ones up there making a big song and deal about it for me. Even if I could I wouldn't want to because the relationship is different. In fact many people are against it because they believe polygamy is a religious thing - which its not at all.
My gay friends are either opposed to gay marriage (one even more so than myself) or not fussed either way. One gay couple have hyphenated their names and said they wouldn't bother getting married anyway even though they're mums to two kids together.
Alright yes that's a small group (5 people) to collect data from but it seems to be a bigger issue amongst straight people than gay people.

I support subsidising the car manufacturing industry. BUT I'd like to see more separation from parent companies and I'd like to see us build luxury cars rather than affordable family cars. I'd also like to see Australian manufactured cars (where more than 50% is local content) become FBT and LCT free. Never going to happen really. I do think there is a market for Australian built cars but I believe for the most part we chase our tails with mass production when specialist production would be more suited to the Australian market. Look at the mining sector. They buy Toyotas and Nissanas (or these days they're looking at the American pickups which don't last as long as the 'yotas but have a higher GVM) and then spend thousands having them modified with ROPS and cutting wagons into trays. Why can't we get Ford AU or GMH manufacturing mining spec vehicles. Our biggest problem is the legal loop holes for getting a vehicle on our roads. Poor old OKA could be building these things too instead of chasing the emergency services work and recreational vehicles work.

This said I'd also like to see a better policy on government spending on Australian manufacturing content on government funded projects. I don't think that the current loop hole of employing an Australian builder who can then source materials/labour from where ever does enough to protect local jobs and prop the local economy when undertaking infrastructure projects.


----------



## Dave70 (14/8/13)

Komodo said:


> All good. The discussion is good
> 
> No, but the fact is people should be able to walk freely and NOT be raped - that's a human right. Much like basic access to water fit for human consumption is a human right. Gay marriage - first world problem.
> 
> ...


What muslims choose to eat is no more relevant an issue than what beer you and I choose to drink.

My point is these cults are not a law unto themselves. If we accept that sexuality is hard wired into our genetic make up, and it is, what argument can be presented by any entity to discriminate? Being born gay is no more a choice than being born coloured, and we don't need to go into what an uproar we'd witness if certain churches refused to marry blacks due to exercising their scripturally interpreted 'right of choice'. 
(Dramatic example yes, and I'm in no way implying this is what you're advocating.)

If laws are passed to legalize gay marriage, what right does the church - or celebrant - have to deny matrimony on the basis the couple are gay? Heterosexual's born that way have all options open to them, and guaranteed by law, what's the difference?
The only reason churches have been forced to abandon questionable and downright abhorrent practices over the years is due to pressure applied by law. Otherwise you can bet there'd still be elements within fighting for the right to keep slaves.

Bottom line is the whole issue goes further to drag into the spotlight religions utter incomparability with a modern progressive society and equality. The sooner we unhitch our ethical and moral wagon to this nonsense the better off we'll all be.


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## komodo (14/8/13)

Where's the choice?
By your thought process that means a sex worker should have no right to deny a client. She's a sex worker there for she should do sex work for anyone that wants to make use of her services even if the client makes her uncomfortable or wants services which she doesn't want to do for her own moral reasons.
Yep its the polar opposite end of the spectrum but the issue is still an issue of choice - or rather the removal of.


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## Dave70 (14/8/13)

Komodo said:


> Where's the choice?
> By your thought process that means a sex worker should have no right to deny a client. She's a sex worker there for she should do sex work for anyone that wants to make use of her services even if the client makes her uncomfortable or wants services which she doesn't want to do for her own moral reasons.
> Yep its the polar opposite end of the spectrum but the issue is still an issue of choice - or rather the removal of.


Though I fail to see the correlation, if the client requests an act that violates the law, she is well within her rights to deny her services. If she refuses to turn a trick due to the customer being a fat, smelly grub with a odd looking penis, and lets him know it, he may be indeed entitled to launch some form of action that he was discriminated against. 
We live in such an increasingly litigious society I'm sure stranger things have happened.

You just seem to me to be suggesting churches have the right to discriminate and call it 'belief'. Maby I'm reading it wrong. Sorry if that the case.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/8/13)

I think some churches do believe in belief as a way to discriminate. The church I was brought up with ( Uniting) is prob one of the most progressive ones of the more traditional ones. They have GLBT ministers.

I also personally think some Churches are hypocrtical to the extreme. I find it abhorent that a church can deny the existence of gay people but protect peodaphiles......

Our constitution does not allow religion to set laws but does allow religious freedom


----------



## pcmfisher (14/8/13)

Who wants to get married in a church anyway?

According to someone on Insight last night now only 30% do iirc , and falling.

@Komodo, you do know they are _not_ trying to make same sex marriage compulsory?


----------



## punkin (14/8/13)

In the case of the sex worker, the same as a shopkeeper or publican, they have the right to refuse service to anyone they choose. PROVIDED it's not discriminatory. They can chuck you out for not wearing shoes, or for any other reason that is applied to everyone. Or they can refuse service and not give a reason.

Therefore, they are perfectly entitled to deny service to the fat smelly grub with the weird dick, but they'd be stupid to give a reason. They can NOT however refuse service to him because of his skin colour, sexuality, religous beliefs yadayada.

There are specific things that are prescribed by aussie discimination laws..

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/guide-australias-anti-discrimination-laws

Unhygenic is not protected.

Therefore churches could refuse to marry whoever they want, so long as it couldn't be proved that the refusal was discriminatory. And i'd say it would be tested in law within the first month.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/8/13)

Actually.....to get married in a Catholic church you have to be a Catholic....


----------



## komodo (14/8/13)

> @Komodo, you do know they are _not_ trying to make same sex marriage compulsory?


LOL I'll cop that.


----------



## pcmfisher (14/8/13)

Religion is code for discrimination. And they get away with it.

What would religion be if it could not discriminate against others that didn't happen to believe in the same delusion?


----------



## kalbarluke (14/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Actually.....to get married in a Catholic church you have to be a Catholic....


This is only half true. To get married in a Catholic Church only one person of the couple needs to be Catholic. I was married in a Catholic Church but I am not catholic; my wife is.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/8/13)

Ok. Maybe things have changed. I grew up in an area with a high Italian population and to get married in the Catholic church both had to be Catholic.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/8/13)

pcmfisher said:


> @Komodo, you do know they are _not_ trying to make same sex marriage compulsory?


Why cant GLBT be unhappily married like everyone else


----------



## Liam_snorkel (19/8/13)




----------



## Dave70 (19/8/13)

_meh.._

_



_


----------



## Liam_snorkel (19/8/13)

I wonder if this would be acceptable. The preferences are still legible.


----------



## sponge (19/8/13)

^^

Looks like the winner of the election


----------



## Liam_snorkel (19/8/13)

sponge said:


> ^^
> 
> Looks like the winner of the erection


Fixed that for you


----------



## sponge (19/8/13)

and WHAT a winner!

Veins and all..


----------



## nu_brew (19/8/13)

I scrutineered at a state election. 

Instructions were if one box above the line was marked (one box only) no matter what the mark - tick, cross, 1 etc it was valid vote. 

A ballot with a cock and balls neatly drawn in the Family First box was counted...


----------



## manticle (19/8/13)

So Fielding became senator fielding due to the amount of cock that came his way?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/8/13)

He took it as a suppositry....


----------



## Liam_snorkel (19/8/13)

This is what happens when an ABC cameraman starts a 'band'. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H7BTKTOwLE


----------



## manticle (20/8/13)

Interesting that not wanting to turn 100+ yr old trees into pulp or keep a pig in a cage the size of a small closet for the term of its natural life is indicative of being a lunatic but condemning an asylum seeker who has been deemed by legal process to be a genuine refugee to life in a civilly disturbed, unsafe and 3rd world country makes economic sense and is worthy of support.

Long sentence but my suppository fell out.


----------



## OzPaleAle (21/8/13)

Just to stir the hornets nest

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/we-really-must-talk-about-the-pink-batts/


----------



## philmud (21/8/13)

Abbott claims to be a "conservationist" - I think he's confused about the Latin term for "place where suppository goes"


----------



## manticle (21/8/13)

Liberal party is now apparently preferencing rise up australia party over greens and labor in some seats. Does anyone have any more info to confirm, deny or justify? Rise up is run by a guy who believes black saturday bushfires were a result of god's wrath in response to Victorian abortion laws.

How either major party could not consider these guys kooks of the lowest order and preference number is something that leaves me scratching my head. Greens are fringe dwellers but Danny Naliah is A-OK?


----------



## philmud (21/8/13)

Danny Nalliah is a dodgy prick - here's confirmation of the LNP preference story

I don't see any option this year but to donkey vote, or vote below the line.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (21/8/13)

I particularly enjoyed this:
http://www.themorningbulletin.com.au/news/un-caused-cq-floods-capricornia-rise-up-federal-/1992188/


----------



## manticle (21/8/13)

Phil Mud said:


> Danny Nalliah is a dodgy prick - here's confirmation of the LNP preference story
> 
> I don't see any option this year but to donkey vote, or vote below the line.


If you give even half a shit about who gets power, why wouldn't you vote below the line?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/13)

Um.......er......Ok....Rise up seem legit


----------



## Droopy (21/8/13)

Phil Mud said:


> I don't see any option this year but to donkey vote, or vote below the line.


No matter which way you vote (or draw rude pictures on the voting slip!), you're always voting for a donkey!


----------



## manticle (21/8/13)

Phil Mud said:


> Danny Nalliah is a dodgy prick - here's confirmation of the LNP preference story
> 
> I don't see any option this year but to donkey vote, or vote below the line.


Sorry for multiple posts - still using a phone to type. I read that article and some other newspapers too - by confirm/deny, I mean sources outside that. I know from recent experience how far newspaper articles can be from the whole truth.


----------



## philmud (21/8/13)

"Liberal Party state director Damien Mantach said there were 39 groups and nearly 100 candidates on the Senate ballot in Victoria.
''The Liberal Party has preferenced Rise Up Australia very low on our Senate How To Vote card,'' Mr Mantach said."

I realise that doesn't confirm the positioning of Rise Up on their ticket, but the story doesn't sound speculative to me.

Also, I agree - I always vote below the line.


----------



## manticle (21/8/13)

Me neither but I like to offer opportunities for explanation from those interested before I make up my mind. Pretty unimpressed with the idea. Might as well preference hanson or fred fuckwit niles.


----------



## philmud (21/8/13)

Yeah - you'd think they'd want to distance themselves as far as possible from toxic people like that, but I guess it's about keeping ALP & Greens out, rather than helping the loonies in. If that happens, it's collateral damages I guess.


----------



## Mardoo (22/8/13)

Pretty interesting to have a read (between the lines) of their "Policy Principles". Although you don't have to read between the lines much at all. They put it out there quite clearly.

http://riseupaustraliaparty.com/?page_id=18


----------



## nu_brew (22/8/13)

You can see everyone's how to vote here. And also make your own. 

Belowtheline.org.au


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/8/13)

Mardoo said:


> Pretty interesting to have a read (between the lines) of their "Policy Principles". Although you don't have to read between the lines much at all. They put it out there quite clearly.
> 
> http://riseupaustraliaparty.com/?page_id=18


Not to radicall......much...

I like the we accept peace and harmony among all australians but reject multiculturalism.......yeah...now that makes lots of sense... One Nation anyone.

I think maybe they should have a read of the constitution....they may learn something


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/8/13)

this is, amongst others a dumb statement:




> We believe in “climate change” – for thousands of years the climate has been changing and it will continue to change; the notion that anthropogenic emissions of the plant-food carbon dioxide have affected, or will affect, the macro-climatic changes that would have occurred anyway as part of nature (e.g. volcanoes, solar variations etc) is a quasi-religious hypothesis unproven by objective scientific facts. Computer modelling always involves subjectivity and should not be used as the sole basis for policies;


hehe 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRxx8pen6JY


----------



## Mardoo (22/8/13)

Seriously! "...the plant-food carbon dioxide..." The mind staggers then falls over.


----------



## mash head (22/8/13)

Mardoo said:


> Seriously! "...the plant-food carbon dioxide..." The mind staggers then falls over.


You know not of photosynthesis? Plants absorb co2 to grow and store the carbon. It has been shown in a controlled environment that a co2 rich atmosphere can double to triple plant yields. Yes you do need water and nutrients.
If farmers were allowed to be part of an ETS think about how much carbon we could capture in pastures, the animals that eat those pastures and the soil microbes that feed the plants. But no cows fart and that's way worse apparently.


----------



## manticle (22/8/13)

Plants photosynthesise in order to make their food. They use Carbon Dioxide in this process, as well as light. To refer to CO2 as plant food is to not understand what you are talking about which I think was Mardoo's point.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/8/13)

Well I sure aint giving up steak to save the planet. I would rather get rid of a few oxygen theifs that I know.


----------



## mash head (22/8/13)

Doesn't it depend upon your definition of food. I see it as the basic building blocks that all life is built around. How much carbon are we made of. How did we become made of it?? we ate it which was capture by plants originally.


----------



## mash head (22/8/13)

Really then fertilizer cannot be called plant food, its just a bunch of chemicals that plants need to photosynthesise. The main ones being N P K. Carnivorous plants don't eat they just make use of some chemicals that are extracted from the dead bodies of their prey, their food is created via sunlight and co2 technically.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/8/13)

Creationism.


----------



## OzPaleAle (22/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Creation Theory.


Yes a completely logical explanation of how we ended up here..........


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/8/13)

That and Scientology.....


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/8/13)

Except that no one can explain Tom Cruise


----------



## manticle (22/8/13)

mash head said:


> Doesn't it depend upon your definition of food. I see it as the basic building blocks that all life is built around. How much carbon are we made of. How did we become made of it?? we ate it which was capture by plants originally.


Um.....no

Carbon is food? DNA? Nucleobases? Oxygen? Yeah but nah.

Perhaps you think it's OK for fundamentalist nutjobs to redefine the biology of plants. I don't.


----------



## Mardoo (22/8/13)

manticle said:


> Plants photosynthesise in order to make their food. They use Carbon Dioxide in this process, as well as light. To refer to CO2 as plant food is to not understand what you are talking about which I think was Mardoo's point.


Yep


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/8/13)

It's beside the point anyway. The point is that we are disrupting the carbon cycle which our species evolved to survive in, by digging up and burning 300 million year old carbon deposits. The last time atmospheric CO2 was as high as it is currently was at least 3 million years ago, when modern humans hadn't evolved yet. That is a big experiment to be performing on the planet.
meh. 

semi related - this is a good listen regarding ice ages.


----------



## manticle (22/8/13)

I think part of RUA's implied point is that the plants will eat all the atmospheric carbon dioxide so it must be a good thing.

Super smart they must be.


----------



## pcmfisher (22/8/13)

Phil Mud said:


> Danny Nalliah is a dodgy prick - here's confirmation of the LNP preference story
> 
> I don't see any option this year but to donkey vote, or vote below the line.


He has to be anti islam as he is a Christian minister.

What a disgraceful thing religion in politics is.


----------



## spog (22/8/13)

heard on the radio news that while having his make up done for debate last night Kev gobbed off at the make up assistant,she tweeted it but it has since been removed. apparently he was rude and said , you must remember you are only a make up assistant.
hmm,... ..cheers...spog....


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/8/13)

any chance she made it up...?

sorry that was terrible.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (22/8/13)

As Tony Abbott would say " will you just shut up "


----------



## mash head (22/8/13)

> Um.....no
> 
> Carbon is food? DNA? Nucleobases? Oxygen? Yeah but nah.
> 
> Perhaps you think it's OK for fundamentalist nutjobs to redefine the biology of plants. I don't.


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROW1xuvEmqb0vob5oD0lJ0xlIjA3RQRXJysaMg0n2E2c8neEgzbA
As I understand it co2 is turned directly into sugars via chemical reaction with sunlight and chlorophyl. Plants create their own food by using the carbon atom from co2 and rearranging it into a sugar molecule so as I see it co2 is far more credible as plant food than fertilizer. I think the Greens are a bunch of nut jobs personally and have no info on the man who originally made the plant food coment.


----------



## Dave70 (22/8/13)

pcmfisher said:


> He has to be anti islam as he is a Christian minister.
> 
> What a disgraceful thing religion in politics is.


Sorted.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (22/8/13)

mash head said:


> If farmers were allowed to be part of an ETS think about how much carbon we could capture in pastures, the animals that eat those pastures and the soil microbes that feed the plants. But no cows fart and that's way worse apparently.


you mean this?
http://www.climatechange.gov.au/reducing-carbon/carbon-farming-initiative


----------



## manticle (22/8/13)

mash head said:


> http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROW1xuvEmqb0vob5oD0lJ0xlIjA3RQRXJysaMg0n2E2c8neEgzbA
> As I understand it co2 is turned directly into sugars via chemical reaction with sunlight and chlorophyl. Plants create their own food by using the carbon atom from co2 and rearranging it into a sugar molecule so as I see it co2 is far more credible as plant food than fertilizer. I think the Greens are a bunch of nut jobs personally and have no info on the man who originally made the plant food coment.



I know how photosynthesis works but cheers. I did Year 12 Biology too.

If you credit Danny Nalliah or anyone who is associated with him as less nutty than the Greens, I'm not sure I can help.


----------



## Bridges (22/8/13)

Bridges said:


> Much the same as me, the preferences always amuse me though as the libs will always put Labor last no matter what, where as the labor party will put "australians against further immigration, christian democrats, family first and other backward looking, reactionary geese" at the bottom with the libs above them. I don't see why both sides don't do that.





Rowy said:


> Wrong





manticle said:


> Liberal party is now apparently preferencing rise up australia party over greens and labor in some seats. Does anyone have any more info to confirm, deny or justify? Rise up is run by a guy who believes black saturday bushfires were a result of god's wrath in response to Victorian abortion laws.
> 
> How either major party could not consider these guys kooks of the lowest order and preference number is something that leaves me scratching my head. Greens are fringe dwellers but Danny Naliah is A-OK?


Must not follow any parties how to vote cards.
I've been trying my best to stay away from this thread too. It can be way to frustrating and depressing.
Unlike threads on perfected IPA recipes... Looking for one now... That would be an uplifting and inspiring story to warm the cockles of my heart.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/13)

So now Tony wants to buy the boats.....


----------



## bradsbrew (25/8/13)

Now Hockey has "minister in Howard government" splattered across the bottom of the screen in his new commercial which I thought was pretty funny for two reasons.
1. Shows that even the party thinks the current format is lacking.
2. Howard's government got voted out.

Positive side is he was actually speaking of policies but I was distracted by the whole minister in Howard's government tag that I didn't hear them.
Will be more attentive next time.


----------



## philmud (25/8/13)

Aha! I haven't read about the policy in any detail, so no clue if this is a fair critique. Funny though...


----------



## Liam_snorkel (26/8/13)

haha. So good. Rap news taking the piss, and the actual Julian Assange wearing a mullet wig & singing some farnsie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWU6tVxzO1I


----------



## OzPaleAle (26/8/13)

I do like the Rap News lads and their vids, good on Julian getting in on it.


----------



## Dave70 (26/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> So now Tony wants to buy the boats.....


Cash for junkers?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (27/8/13)

Everything he says and does makes me fcking cringe. 

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/jakarta-hits-out-at-coalitions-crazy-unfriendly-boat-buyback-scheme-20130826-2slsg.html


----------



## Dave70 (27/8/13)

*Mr Abbott, who has previously accused the Labor government of damaging Australia's relationship with Indonesia, announced the buyback scheme last week as part of a new $420 million package aimed at stemming the flow of refugee boats to Australia.*

I guess along with the other 640 odd million we punt their way annually, we'll be getting some nice ******* boats coming our way then. 

I'd like a boat.


----------



## dougsbrew (27/8/13)

Dave70 said:


> *Mr Abbott, who has previously accused the Labor government of damaging Australia's relationship with Indonesia, announced the buyback scheme last week as part of a new $420 million package aimed at stemming the flow of refugee boats to Australia.*
> 
> I guess along with the other 640 odd million we punt their way annually, we'll be getting some nice ******* boats coming our way then.
> 
> I'd like a boat.


Haha, I'll have a boat too. Is abbott going 2 become a 2nd hand boat dealer. 
Wonder if he'll pay all those taxes and fees required upon bringing a boat to Aus.
Or is he going to leave his newly purchased boats in Indo. for the smugglers to steal and use..


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/13)

Tony's second hand & reconditioned boats. Guarenteed asylum seeker free.


----------



## pk.sax (27/8/13)

Bwahahahhaba

That is funny duc boy


----------



## Liam_snorkel (29/8/13)

got a chuckle out of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxZ0yDTfnjw


----------



## Dave70 (30/8/13)

Thing's that make you go order!...ORDER! 

http://youtu.be/Bl-GzqTCxZY


----------



## Liam_snorkel (30/8/13)

Tone gets half a bar when surrounded by teenage netballers. :lol:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-29/abbott-tells-netballers-to-make-body-contact/4920870


----------



## pcmfisher (30/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> got a chuckle out of this:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxZ0yDTfnjw


I'd slip the milf a preference..........


----------



## manticle (30/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Tone gets half a bar when surrounded by teenage netballers. :lol:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-29/abbott-tells-netballers-to-make-body-contact/4920870



Get one myself thinking about his two lovely daughters. Would almost vote for him just to see them a little more in the public eye. Obviously the attractive genes are recessive and may often skip a generation or two.


----------



## OzPaleAle (30/8/13)

I think LNP should be running them instead, they seem like intelligent & sensible women when I hear them speak especially compared to Tony.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (30/8/13)

they look way too much like him. 

just had a giggle at this:


----------



## jlm (30/8/13)

Heard Clive Palmer on the radio today. Was impressed that he managed get through without quitting midway, and after the interview I can honestly say that I want his party elected in the majority and him to be our PM.

Not because I think its a good thing for me or the country or myself (apart from high speed ferries, not ferry, from the mainland to Tas at $50 each way. That would mean I could duck off to the Taphouse for a quick session saturday and be back sunday, bright eyed and bushy tailed for work come monday....), but because I'd really enjoy seeing him actually be forced to put his bullshit where his mouth is.


----------



## OzPaleAle (30/8/13)

jlm said:


> Heard Clive Palmer on the radio today. Was impressed that he managed get through without quitting midway, and after the interview I can honestly say that I want his party elected in the majority and him to be our PM.
> 
> Not because I think its a good thing for me or the country or myself (apart from high speed ferries, not ferry, from the mainland to Tas at $50 each way. That would mean I could duck off to the Taphouse for a quick session saturday and be back sunday, bright eyed and bushy tailed for work come monday....), but because I'd really enjoy seeing him actually be forced to put his bullshit where his mouth is.


He talks the talk, what he says are great sounding things but I'm not sure he realising the reality of achieving them.
Having said that I think you need a PM that thinks big and does what he thinks is the right thing.
Better than fluffing around trying not to offend anyone and getting another term.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (30/8/13)

I'm pretty sure he just got into politics for a laugh hey.


----------



## jlm (30/8/13)




----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/8/13)

The Economist magazine backs Rudd with the following qualifier:

"The choice between a man with a defective manifesto and one with a defective personality is not appealing—but Mr Rudd gets our vote, largely because of Labor's decent record,"

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/the-economist-backs-kevin-rudd-for-second-turn-20130830-2svda.html


----------



## browndog (31/8/13)

So Rudd, Bowen and Wong have been exposed by Treasury officials as outright lying to the public in their opposition costing scare campaign. Goodbye Labor.


----------



## bradsbrew (31/8/13)

I think there should be a mandatory jail term and a party should be banned from the next election if they do not follow through with election promises.


----------



## kalbarluke (31/8/13)

One of the leading betting agencies has firmed a Coalition win to $1.02 with a 26.5 seat line. In my seat (Wright), the Coalition candidate and sitting member is at $1.001 to be returned.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/8/13)

Well the coalition won't release their cuts until the day before the election. I wonder why.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Well the coalition won't release their cuts until the day before the election. I wonder why.


will have to study rocket science to work it out...


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/13)

browndog said:


> So Rudd, Bowen and Wong have been exposed by Treasury officials as outright lying to the public in their opposition costing scare campaign. Goodbye Labor.


Sorry mate..

But when the libs wont realease actual costings and news corp provide a biased political view it can hardly be called a level playing field....

At least we can still brew beer


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/13)

bradsbrew said:


> I think there should be a mandatory jail term and a party should be banned from the next election if they do not follow through with election promises.


....

Carefull Brad...some here on AHB would wish the same of mods.......


----------



## bradsbrew (31/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> ....
> 
> Carefull Brad...some here on AHB would wish the same of mods.......


Except AHB is not a democracy, and you sir have now just disrespected. Bring forth the Iron Maiden for this fool.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/13)

Meh...give me Mr Kilmister. I shall take the Ace of Spades


----------



## bradsbrew (31/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Meh...give me Mr Kilmister. I shall take the Ace of Spades


I was referring to one of these,



but if you want to play cards with Dave70.........................


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/13)

He has an S4..... We could have a few things in common


----------



## browndog (31/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Sorry mate..
> 
> But when the libs wont realease actual costings and news corp provide a biased political view it can hardly be called a level playing field....
> 
> At least we can still brew beer


Sorry Stu, I'd rather have my sons Year 2 class running this country that the spastic bunch currently in charge.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/13)

Sorry...but we must disagree...

But politics is the only thing we should disagree on.


----------



## browndog (31/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Sorry...but we must disagree...
> 
> But politics is the only thing we should disagree on.


Lets vote Labor back in and completely ruin the country then.


----------



## bradsbrew (31/8/13)

browndog said:


> Lets vote Labor back in and completely ruin the country then.


Tony, do you believe we would be better or worse off economically if the coalition was in power when the GFC hit in 2008? Genuine question.


----------



## browndog (31/8/13)

Yes.

BTW, I'm not a right wing nutter. I detest rusted on voters of both parties. I am a swinging voter and have voted Labor in quite a few elections.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/8/13)

http://smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/life-is-much-better-under-labor-after-all-says-study-20130830-2sw8l.html


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/13)

I just wish Abbott would release his economic policy....he obviously has something to hide...or at least he knows that what he proposed to do will be deeply unpopular. He is treating the voters as idiots by not releasing his policy. Its not a bad thing for the voters to ask for it and be given time to digest. He knows full well that if he realeses it at the very last minute it cant be covered or commented in the media due to the blackout. He is basically giving the finger to the voting public.


----------



## browndog (31/8/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> http://smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/life-is-much-better-under-labor-after-all-says-study-20130830-2sw8l.html


Wow, even I could run a government that just kept borrowing to keep it's people happy. Ever heard of Greece?


----------



## browndog (31/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I just wish Abbott would release his economic policy....he obviously has something to hide...or at least he knows that what he proposed to do will be deeply unpopular. He is treating the voters as idiots by not releasing his policy. Its not a bad thing for the voters to ask for it and be given time to digest. He knows full well that if he realeses it at the very last minute it cant be covered or commented in the media due to the blackout. He is basically giving the finger to the voting public.


You guy's make me laugh, you are so caught up in Labor's "Abbot is the devil" campaign.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/8/13)

Not even a little bit close.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/8/13)

We have a debt problem. 

http://m.smh.com.au/business/we-have-a-debt-problem-says-nab-chief-20130801-2r29e.html


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/13)

browndog said:


> You guy's make me laugh, you are so caught up in Labor's "Abbot is the devil" campaign.


Sorry Tony but you are wrong.....I want to know both sides...sure they are playing each other off, but why wont the liberal party release their policy...is a very simple question


----------



## browndog (31/8/13)

So our kids have school halls, that's great, I have kids of school age.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/13)

browndog said:


> Wow, even I could run a government that just kept borrowing to keep it's people happy. Ever heard of Greece?


We are not even remotely close to Greece. All governments borrow. Have you looked at what we owe compared to what we earn.


----------



## browndog (31/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Sorry Tony but you are wrong.....I want to know both sides...sure they are playing each other off, but why wont the liberal party release their policy...is a very simple question


Sorry Stu, but you are wrong and there is 27 pages of evidence.


----------



## browndog (31/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> We are not even remotely close to Greece. All governments borrow. Have you looked at what we owe compared to what we earn.


I never said we were. But if our government keeps on borrowing and borrowing and borrowing....... we will be,


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/13)

browndog said:


> So our kids have school halls, that's great, I have kids of school age.


Has nothing to do with why the liberals wont realese their policy costings....


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/13)

browndog said:


> Sorry Stu, but you are wrong and there is 27 pages of evidence.


27 pages of what evidence.......


----------



## browndog (31/8/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Has nothing to do with why the liberals wont realese their policy costings....


That was in reference to Liam's link about a Wanker that runs a bank and earns 9mil a year telling the peons we don't owe enough...


----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/8/13)

Wanker with a capital W, that's big. Better give him a call, browndog from Ipswich needs to give him an economics lesson.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (31/8/13)

Nah I was just being a tosser. Enough of that, we're all screwed anyway. 

Look who's hosting RAGE tonight: 

"Australia’s most prominent 2ICs: Deputy Prime Minister Anthony “Albo” Albanese, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition Julie Bishop and Dr Adam Bandt, the Deputy Leader of the Greens will be hosting rage in an Election Special.

In a rage first, sitting Members of Parliament will guest program the show offering a rare insight into politicians and their relationship with music.

Each of the deputies picked 20 of their favourite songs, and share tales about hearing them for the first time, live gigs, run-ins with musicians and dancing around their living room.

Which deputy had a song dedication from Bono at a U2 concert? Who’s the PJ Harvey fan? And which pollie has a penchant for French house music?

Even if you’re indifferent to the personalities who shape our nation, there’s a playlist full of fantastic music from rock ‘n’ roll to 80s new wave, grunge, pop and of course a healthy smattering of Aussie artists.

Who knows? Maybe this will swing a vote or two!
more about this guest/special"


----------



## browndog (1/9/13)

So which pollie would be playing what? Best I can think of:

Gordon Nuttal - Dirty Deeds.


----------



## manticle (1/9/13)

Anybody familiar with the Australian independents?


----------



## Toper (1/9/13)

There's an older Aussie/German fella that I have a beer and yak with at the local pub occasionally,he migrated here in the 60's from Leipzig in what was East Germany.He once made the truest statement I've heard about pollies ever...'I lived under the Nazis,then I lived under the Communists,then I came to Australia and live under democracy. I've learnt one thing..ALL BLOODY POLITICIANS ARE THE SAME !. :chug:


----------



## goomboogo (1/9/13)

manticle said:


> Anybody familiar with the Australian independents?


I am aware that their name is a misnomer.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (1/9/13)

Cartoon in todays paper...

"Number candidates in order from least to most disapointing"


----------



## manticle (1/9/13)

goomboogo said:


> I am aware that their name is a misnomer.


Bit like the liberal party you mean?


----------



## kalbarluke (1/9/13)

Remember, it is not just the prime minister we are voting for. We are also voting for the Senate. The senate has the power to veto any decision made by the PM and the party in control of the House of Representatives. A lot of people are getting uptight about Abbott becoming PM but if he has a hostile Senate his powers will be markedly reduced. 
If, however, he has full control of BOTH houses.......

Moral of the story: take your Senate vote seriously (ie: not drawing a big dick on it and putting a 1 next to it. Save that for the H of R ballot).


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (1/9/13)

What about drawing boobs...


----------



## Liam_snorkel (1/9/13)

Hahaha


----------



## goomboogo (1/9/13)

He looks more pleased in the photo on the right.


----------



## RobW (2/9/13)

George Pell's probably under the desk


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (2/9/13)

Harsh...but fair


----------



## pcmfisher (2/9/13)

manticle said:


> Anybody familiar with the Australian independents?


I reckon Oakshott and Windsor have seen to it that, like the Greens, Independents are an endangered species.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (2/9/13)

nah.


----------



## manticle (2/9/13)

pcmfisher said:


> I reckon Oakshott and Windsor have seen to it that, like the Greens, Independents are an endangered species.



It's a party called Australian Independents as opposed to any specific independents. Odd name for a party as mentioned above but their philosophies ssem less in keeping with being arseholes than the two majors.


----------



## OzPaleAle (2/9/13)

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/australia-you-dont-know-how-good-youve-got-it-20130901-2sytb.html


----------



## pk.sax (2/9/13)

Well, young people in France, as the few I know tell me, cannot even afford to rent an apartment without a parent or someone guaranteeing it. Getting a job is hard enough.

Now, say what you would a out the 'wasteful' labor, your average joe not too bright is still working at maccas. Probably not as happy as he used to, but he's not quite lost a job. People are still drinking piss and driving holdens/fords and whatever else.
For a country that has been dependant on its mining income and lost a lot of industry that could keep masses employed in the industrial sector we have done rather well. If we're in debt, that kind of means someone deems our economy capable of repaying.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (3/9/13)

The liberal candidate that Tony described as having "a bit of sex appeal" has linked refugees to traffic jams and hospital queues.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/liberal-candidate-links-asylum-seekers-to-traffic-jams-and-hospital-queues-20130903-2t1kw.html#ixzz2dm9ptMmT


----------



## pcmfisher (3/9/13)

manticle said:


> It's a party called Australian Independents as opposed to any specific independents. Odd name for a party as mentioned above but their philosophies ssem less in keeping with being arseholes than the two majors.



Oh, those Australian Independents. I probably should have known because when I googled them I found I had already looked at their site. :blink:

At a quick glance I can't see who their preferences go to. Greens maybe???


----------



## Liam_snorkel (3/9/13)

From what I understand they don't have any set policies or preference deals, and are autonomous within the vague guidelines which are on their website (they call them policies).


----------



## Liam_snorkel (3/9/13)

http://electioncostings.gov.au/

*ALP Costings*
ALP Completed Costings
ALP Requests Received
*Coalition Costings*
No categories
*Australian Greens Costings*
GRN Completed Costings
GRN Requests Received


----------



## Bridges (3/9/13)

Yeah. Heaven forbid Tony actually told us what he was going to do, then people might not want to vote for him. He's still just telling us how bad the other guys are doing and how bad their policies are, not what he's actually planning. He keeps telling us it's action, action, action, in all his adds. His 12 point contract tells me zero. Would also love to know which of these vague statements are core and non core promises.
Still it'll be good for Gina and her mates when he's in power just terrible for the rest of us.


----------



## OzPaleAle (3/9/13)

More on the Liberals Financial skills...

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/we-really-must-talk-about-the-howard-and-costello-economic-disaster/


----------



## kalbarluke (3/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Hahaha


Australia: Democracy one day, Murdochracy the next.


----------



## tavas (3/9/13)

Bridges said:


> Still it'll be good for Gina and her mates when he's in power just terrible for the rest of us.


Yeah, cos Eddie Obeid was only an illusion...

I don't like Gina but fail to see what impact she will have on our lives.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/13)

As long as you dont have to work for her at $2hr


----------



## bradsbrew (3/9/13)

Bridges said:


> His 12 point contract tells me zero. Would also love to know which of these vague statements are core and non core promises.


Does not matter, politicians and their parties are not held accountable for their promises. When they get in they will just say " Oh, things are a lot worse than labor have let on and we now can't keep those promises!"
Also now that the leader of the opposition has entered a verbal contract with the people of Australia, could people sue him for breaching this contract? Although to be a valid contract both parties must benefit, so its not a contract for all?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/13)

Its just plain bullshit


----------



## tavas (3/9/13)

It's why you get a chance to vote them out every 3 years.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/13)

Abbott will be fucked with a hostile senate so it could be mid next year


----------



## Bridges (3/9/13)

Gina won't directly impact our lives, but rolling back the mining tax pleases who? When the money that the mining tax contributes to the economy is gone where will Abbott and Hockey make it back? The total revenue in 2012 for BHP Billiton, Rio Tinto, Woodside Petroleum, Newcrest and Xstrata was A$167.23 billion. The total Federal Government budget was around A$330 billion. Gina Rinehart’s Hancock Prospecting alone made a $1.2 billion net profit last year. The tax only hits companies after they make $50mill in profit on coal and iron ore, and some of the big miners have made a 40% return on their investment. A 20% or 15% return still means you are running a very successful business. I can't see how rolling back a fair tax, on not big but MASSIVE business, can somehow be sold as a good thing to mum and dad in the burbs? Yep mining contributes greatly to the Australian economy but this mining tax won't see them packing up and leaving they are still making way to much money for that.
And here I was trying so hard to stay away from this thread.
Rant over.


----------



## Bizier (4/9/13)

http://indolentdandy.net/fitzroyalty/2013/09/02/clive-parma-challenge/


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/9/13)

Hahaha


----------



## lukiferj (4/9/13)

http://media.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national-times/networks-ban-antimurdoch-ad-4716716.html


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/9/13)

here's hoping Abbott will not last more than a term and his pissant attitude toward science will be his undoing.

https://theconversation.com/soft-targets-no-caps-hot-world-abbott-clarifies-his-position-on-climate-policy-17761


----------



## Dave70 (4/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> here's hoping Abbott will not last more than a term and his pissant attitude toward science will be his undoing.
> 
> https://theconversation.com/soft-targets-no-caps-hot-world-abbott-clarifies-his-position-on-climate-policy-17761


It's common sense that we should pumping less shit into the air we breathe, but lets face it. The man in the street couldn't pick a prominent climate scientists from a line up if his life depended on it. Actually, they'd probably point at Al Gore.
The science has long been left behind in the wake of politically influenced meta analysis rhetoric. 

Presuming we can manipulate global numbers down to single digit accuracy seems equally ludicrous. 

Anyway, the Andromeda galaxy will collide with the Milky way in about 4 billion years so we're fucked no matter what.

Nice design _God._.


----------



## Bridges (4/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> here's hoping Abbott will not last more than a term and his pissant attitude toward science, foreigners, women, gays, indigenous Australians, other religions from his own, the union movement, will be his undoing.
> 
> https://theconversation.com/soft-targets-no-caps-hot-world-abbott-clarifies-his-position-on-climate-policy-17761


You missed some, hopefully that covers it off.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/9/13)

Dave the Defeatist.


----------



## pcmfisher (4/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> Nice design _God._.


Which one?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/9/13)

this has been going around today. It gets a laugh

http://dontbeafuckingidiot.herokuapp.com/


----------



## warra48 (4/9/13)

Well, that convinced me never to trust a left wing greenie tree hugging socialist anti-religion politically correct gay website designer again.

I vote for the More Homebrewed Beer Party.


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## manticle (4/9/13)

I vote for the 'stop the single issues parties' party.

People still believing the spin about bad economic management despite just about anyone else in the world who knows anything about such things asserting the contrary?

You will get the government you deserve. Unfortunately so will I.


----------



## treefiddy (4/9/13)

Bizier said:


> http://indolentdandy.net/fitzroyalty/2013/09/02/clive-parma-challenge/


I've been avoiding this thread but **** yeah, I love the Rochy. That place had me sold at $10 nacho parma.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (4/9/13)

speaking of ol mate Clive, I am absolutely convinced he is in it just for a good time. His policy statements are along the line of: "I'm going to halve income tax for all Australians" and "I'm talking about a revolution!". 

and this, which is legitimately great:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chrIvuLS0Mg


----------



## Liam_snorkel (5/9/13)

A new minor party that I didn't know existed, The Future Party: http://futureparty.org.au/policy/summary/

I skimmed through the policies and don't find myself disagreeing with much. The charter city is a bit of a wildcard though.


----------



## mwd (5/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> speaking of ol mate Clive, I am absolutely convinced he is in it just for a good time. His policy statements are along the line of: "I'm going to halve income tax for all Australians" and "I'm talking about a revolution!".
> 
> and this, which is legitimately great:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chrIvuLS0Mg


Seeing some of his candidates on TV they should be renamed The Fat Bastards Party. Beer and meat pies anybody ?


----------



## Black Devil Dog (5/9/13)

Rudd The Fake walked straight past a homeless man after having some photos taken with another rent-a-crowd this morning in "Briz".

I know he probably couldn't have helped him directly, but it would have shown that he is a compassionate person, if he had simply expressed some concern for the person, instead he walked by, it showed again who he really is.

Saturday can't come quick enough.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (5/9/13)

Didn't want to wake him up...


----------



## manticle (5/9/13)

I'm sure Tony would have offered him a handjob.

Hope that's not all you're basing your voting choices on but I'm concerned it might be.


----------



## Mardoo (5/9/13)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Rudd The Fake walked straight past a homeless man after having some photos taken with another rent-a-crowd this morning in "Briz".
> ...
> Saturday can't come quick enough.


I'm guessing Tony won't be a huge improvement on that front. Honestly I feel like I'm voting for the hammer or the axe (death by) this year. No hope involved whatsoever, just "how can we avoid the worst outcome."


----------



## dougsbrew (5/9/13)

Clive Palmer has an ad circulating around the sunshine coast claiming how he wants a better airport for the sunshine coast and better roads. Hmm is that so he can travel better on the way to an upgraded airport to jump on his personal jet with the public footing the bill.


----------



## dougsbrew (5/9/13)

BTW, Rudd is doing that cooking gig on the ABC ATM. watched Abbott on it last night was awesome.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (5/9/13)

manticle said:


> I'm sure Tony would have offered him a handjob.
> 
> Hope that's not all you're basing your voting choices on but I'm concerned it might be.


Thank's for your concern, but don't worry, I'll be making the right choice.


----------



## manticle (5/9/13)

I'm not worried about whether your choice is right or agrees with mine. i just hope it's based on genuine assessment of real events and issues, not bollocks like what Krudd or Scabbot had for breakfast.

People have different opinions. Some of those opinions are informed, some aren't. If yours are informed and you reach a conclusion entirely different to mine then I hold a pint glass up to you and wish you the best even if I think your choice sucks arse.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (5/9/13)

Righto...........whatever.


----------



## KingKong (5/9/13)

manticle said:


> I'm not worried about whether your choice is right or agrees with mine. i just hope it's based on genuine assessment of real events and issues, not bollocks like what Krudd or Scabbot had for breakfast.
> 
> People have different opinions. Some of those opinions are informed, some aren't. If yours are informed and you reach a conclusion entirely different to mine then I hold a pint glass up to you and wish you the best even if I think your choice sucks arse.


And who should the non informed vote for? Those who have 3 kids to care for, their own business to run, elderly parents to nurse and little time or perhaps knowledge to educate their vote?

Not having a go Manticle, I just disagree with voting being legislated as compulsory. If only the people who cared, thought through and wanted to, voted, elections would be different.


----------



## manticle (5/9/13)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Righto...........whatever.


Suggesting you have a right to an opinion that's considered and informed, even if I disagree with it.
Hardly the worst criticism I could make mr whatever.

King kong - interesting issue the compulsory voting one and I'm not sure where I stand. However being busy is not an excuse for being wilfully ignorant.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (5/9/13)

If voting weren't compulsory we'd have a situation where lobby groups (such as the ACL) have more sway. We'd have to spend time convincing people to vote, not just who to vote for.


----------



## pk.sax (5/9/13)

It's the lesser of evils, compulsory voting, i.e. in non compulsory voting India, the slums, shanty towns and bogans do the bulk of the voting. The 'informed' middle class just sit by in disgust rather than make some hard choices between idiot#1, idiot#2, ahole#3 and ****#4.

Quite pathetic.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (5/9/13)

Exactly. You would have a situation whereby, say most people couldnt be bothered voting and you get a loony fringe party get power cause they get their supporters to vote and get in because we couldnt be bothered voting against them......just like the US of A


----------



## KingKong (5/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> If voting weren't compulsory we'd have a situation where lobby groups (such as the ACL) have more sway. We'd have to spend time convincing people to vote, not just who to vote for.





manticle said:


> Suggesting you have a right to an opinion that's considered and informed, even if I disagree with it.
> Hardly the worst criticism I could make mr whatever.
> King kong - interesting issue the compulsory voting one and I'm not sure where I stand. However being busy is not an excuse for being wilfully ignorant.


I think the majority of ignorant are not ignorant by choice, rather they are ignorant by necessity. If people were convinced they needed to vote, that would be a good thing. They would be voting for a genuine reason. Not because they have to.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (5/9/13)

America.


----------



## KingKong (5/9/13)

practicalfool said:


> It's the lesser of evils, compulsory voting, i.e. in non compulsory voting India, the slums, shanty towns and bogans do the bulk of the voting. The 'informed' middle class just sit by in disgust rather than make some hard choices between idiot#1, idiot#2, ahole#3 and ****#4.
> Quite pathetic.


I will have to pull you up on any comparison drawn between Australia and India... your comparing apples with oranges.


----------



## KingKong (5/9/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Exactly. You would have a situation whereby, say most people couldnt be bothered voting and you get a loony fringe party get power cause they get their supporters to vote and get in because we couldnt be bothered voting against them......just like the US of A





Liam_snorkel said:


> America.


What fringe party is in power in America?


----------



## manticle (5/9/13)

The examples you gave - single mothers, small business owners etc are precisely the people who need to make themselves aware. Compulsory or not makes no difference - political decisions affect them. They can be a small part of those decisions or have no influence at all.

Informing yourself doesn't start or end with voting by the way. 

Ignorant by necessity is the homeless mentally ill guy, not the small business owner. Homeless guy/girl needs representation more than anyone though.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (5/9/13)

I mentioned a lobby group, not a fringe party. 

Anyway I agree that our situation isn't ideal, but i think its more to do with the quality of our two major parties than the voting public. I'd still rather have the ignorant and apathetic involved in the process than not, and I see a voting as a civic duty not something to opt in or out of.


----------



## KingKong (5/9/13)

I agree to disagree.


----------



## mrTbeer (5/9/13)

KingKong said:


> What fringe party is in power in America?


There's only 2 majors Dems and Reps.
But the NRA and the Bible-belt are pretty loony.
I've wondered about Compulsory voting before, it's odd but probably better, protest votes have a consequence though.


----------



## Dave70 (6/9/13)

manticle said:


> The examples you gave - single mothers, small business owners etc are precisely the people who need to make themselves aware. Compulsory or not makes no difference - political decisions affect them. They can be a small part of those decisions or have no influence at all.
> 
> Informing yourself doesn't start or end with voting by the way.
> 
> Ignorant by necessity is the homeless mentally ill guy, not the small business owner. Homeless guy/girl needs representation more than anyone though.


I'm a small, small business owner for coming on a decade, so fair to say my terms of reference are a little more than theoretical. 
Labor governments spend, Liberal governments save, beyond that, there's little more I'm concerned with. We did some nice work during the BER scheme, followed by some horrendous bad debts from builders and fabricators tanking. That's not the governments fault, but people like to blame them anyway. Though I still shudder to think where we'd be today if labor hadn't inherited a whopping surplus to help fund it's stimulation package - or was it the mining boom? Either way, Euromoney magazine believed Swans cock eminently suckworthy. Perhaps some may see irony in receiving a congratulatory pat on the back from European anything in regard to fiscal management.

I believe a change of government will be good if for no other reason it will silence all the ******* muppets pissing and moaning about how we need a change of government, apart from that, little will change.
As I've said before here, I challenge anyone to demonstrate how their lot has be worsened by the current government. 
My observations? you went to uni, you vote left, you went to TAFE, you vote right. Not an iron rule, but pretty true of people I associate with. 
You gentlemen cast your vote however you choose, but personally I gave up stressing over situations outside my control as best I could years ago.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> [...] if for no other reason it will silence all the ******* muppets pissing and moaning about how we need a change of government, apart from that, little will change.


this is the thing which will make it bearable for me.

Nothing either of the two majors do will affect me directly, except maybe fibre to the node (I live at the end of a street with a very long driveway... would much prefer fibre to the house.)

So based on that I should just be looking forward to having an ignoramus prime minister to make fun of.


----------



## Bridges (6/9/13)

Politics and indeed your vote shouldn't need to be judged on what affects you more. It should be about the greater good. Which party is going to make our society better, improve the lot of people worse off than you, and not embarrass our country internationally by being an insular retard. If you're in a position where whoever you vote for won't directly affect you, good luck, well played. But think about how your vote may make a difference for members of our society who DO need some help.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/9/13)

absolutely agree, neither of the two major parties will be high up on my ballot.


----------



## OzPaleAle (6/9/13)

Can you imagine how embarrassing it will be to have Abbott representing us on the world stage....
Imagine him at the UN, 
Tony: um ah yeah stop the boats um ger yea carbon tax. 
Bankie Moon: Tony go sit in the corner the adults are talking.


----------



## manticle (6/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> I'm a small, small business owner for coming on a decade, so fair to say my terms of reference are a little more than theoretical.
> Labor governments spend, Liberal governments save, beyond that, there's little more I'm concerned with. We did some nice work during the BER scheme, followed by some horrendous bad debts from builders and fabricators tanking. That's not the governments fault, but people like to blame them anyway. Though I still shudder to think where we'd be today if labor hadn't inherited a whopping surplus to help fund it's stimulation package - or was it the mining boom? Either way, Euromoney magazine believed Swans cock eminently suckworthy. Perhaps some may see irony in receiving a congratulatory pat on the back from European anything in regard to fiscal management.
> 
> I believe a change of government will be good if for no other reason it will silence all the ******* muppets pissing and moaning about how we need a change of government, apart from that, little will change.
> ...



All good Dave except that last bit.

Loads of uni-goers/graduates forming the the middle and upper middle vote conservative, labor (not that left I'll grant) has got the traditional base of tradies etc.

Certainly I went to uni and am left leaning but I know a lot who weren't/aren't.


----------



## Dave70 (6/9/13)

mrTbeer said:


> Piss Easy challenge. I got made redundant in 2011 from a private sector job as a direct result of a Labor policy. Started my own small business within a month which has been great, but it sure was nice getting paid every 2 weeks!
> I was refused any unemployment benefits because I 'let slip' that my wife still had a job. And the government only counts those unemployed who they pay benefits to, what a hoax.
> 
> I don't see much truth in your observation with the people around me. I went to Uni and don't vote 'left'. Maybe true for the generation that were gifted FREE Uni under Whitlam's Labor, but not my generation. You can bet that 100,000's of people that went to TAFE and now wear high-viz each day (me included) are thinking about voting 'right' tomorrow.


Were you installing pink batts by chance in 2011?

What did you study at uni?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/9/13)

stark contrast to the hysterics in the murdoch papers. It's worth a read.

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-age-editorial/labors-policies-best-reflect-our-values-20130905-2t828.html


----------



## jlm (6/9/13)

Work's keeping on flinders island for a bit longer than intended. Will I be able to vote? Where is the polling place? What will the pub dish up for smoko tomorrow? Will tonight's session on boags draught and cascade stout result in a huge hangover?


----------



## Dave70 (6/9/13)

jlm said:


> Work's keeping on flinders island


Unless 'work' involves cleaning chemical toilet holding tanks with your tongue, I'm just having a tough time feeling sorry for you.
Ok, maby just a little cos of the Boags thing.


----------



## TasChris (6/9/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Exactly. You would have a situation whereby, say most people couldnt be bothered voting and you get a loony fringe party get power cause they get their supporters to vote and get in because we couldnt be bothered voting against them......just like the US of A


Hmm do you mean like the Greens getting power Federally and in Tasmania?
Cheers
Chris


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/9/13)

he said loony 


by the by: yesterday's coalition pamphlet costings didn't include their direct action plan, fraudband, and refugee policy.

http://www.politifact.com.au/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/sep/06/liberal-party-australia/have-all-coalition-policies-been-fully-costed/


----------



## Dave70 (6/9/13)

mrTbeer said:


> No pink batts, I was and still am in the construction industry, Anna Bligh announced funding for Flood relief and the funds came from QldGov. construction projects, some already underway.
> Uni = Bachelor Engineering, GradDip Economics


Our accountant lives in Brisbane and at the time there didn't seem to be a whole lotta love for the Bligh government according to him. Don't know the ins and outs, but I was under the impression she handled it well.

At least you still work in the construction game, our account manager from Bluescope is a former architect who also holds a grad dip in economics and is now - well - managing accounts for knuckleheads like us. Seems to be a lot of that kind of thing about.


----------



## TasChris (6/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> he said loony


Hmmm I know !!
They are all loony...just the degree varies depending on your perspective.

Cheers
Chris


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/9/13)

^ agreed!


----------



## Droopy Brew (6/9/13)

KingKong said:


> I will have to pull you up on any comparison drawn between Australia and India... your comparing apples apu with oranges ockers.


Fixed


----------



## sponge (6/9/13)

Not much to add to this thread, except early voting FTW!


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/9/13)

got a serious chuckle out of this:


----------



## mrTbeer (6/9/13)

I've seen that logo somewhere?? h34r:


----------



## rehab (6/9/13)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/9135433/What-does-Ron-Burgundy-think-of-the-Australian-Election

I think this is what most of the outside world feel. Nicely summed up Ron


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (6/9/13)

mrTbeer said:


> I've seen that logo somewhere?? h34r:


Not as of monday when the new filter kicks in


----------



## mrTbeer (6/9/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Not as of monday when the new filter kicks in


Haha, it's been junked before it was launched apparently.


----------



## dougsbrew (6/9/13)

Not long now till abbott is the *man*. so many great photos of such a great man. Well maybe not so much him.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/9/13)

"Me with my girls in their ironing break"


----------



## dougsbrew (6/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> "Me with my girls in their ironing break"


lol, he's such a masogynistic champion.. cook the man some eggs.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/9/13)

"I love women. My wife is one!"


----------



## dougsbrew (6/9/13)

haha, i stumbled on this pic whilst looking for abbotts greatest pics. hehe.


----------



## dougsbrew (6/9/13)

And heres the man cooking his own eggs.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/9/13)

So... poetic


----------



## Liam_snorkel (6/9/13)

No u.


----------



## browndog (6/9/13)

I can't believe how many vindictive Lefty Jerks there are on this forum. Suck shit for tomorrow.


----------



## dougsbrew (6/9/13)

Is it too late for her return... i must smile amongst these vile male creatures.


----------



## manticle (7/9/13)

browndog said:


> I can't believe how many vindictive Lefty Jerks there are on this forum. Suck shit for tomorrow.



Just people who think differently to you. I don't call you a Right Old arsehole just because I favour a different political ideal to you.

I've seen more vindictiveness in no chill threads to be honest.

PS. Anyone who thinks Labor is anything other than centrist right sitting slightly more left of liberal than abbot's left hand has rocks in the head.


----------



## manticle (7/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


>



Who wouldn't?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (7/9/13)

manticle said:


> Who wouldn't?


Not sure I'm man enough


----------



## punkin (7/9/13)

browndog said:


> I can't believe how many vindictive Lefty Jerks there are on this forum. Suck shit for tomorrow.



vindictive..suck shit...

Not really all there are you.


----------



## dagryll (7/9/13)

I don't understand why the coalition is against gay marriage. Abbot and Pyne are both gay and married. Seems like double standards to me.


----------



## Bridges (7/9/13)

browndog said:


> I can't believe how many vindictive Lefty Jerks there are on this forum. Suck shit for tomorrow.


Thanks so much for your intelligent and well thought out input to the topic at hand.


----------



## spog (7/9/13)

dagryll said:


> I don't understand why the coalition is against gay marriage. Abbot and Pyne are both gay and married. Seems like double standards to me.



????


----------



## Black Devil Dog (7/9/13)

Happy election day.


----------



## manticle (7/9/13)

You too sweetcheeks


----------



## Black Devil Dog (7/9/13)

Remember, our leftist cousins, vote early and vote often. Make all of your votes count.


----------



## manticle (7/9/13)

Certainly made my vote against one nation count.


----------



## Bridges (7/9/13)

Cheers all, off to vote. I have really enjoyed this thread, at times frustrating, illuminating, interesting and disappointing. How will we fill the void without an election looming? I guess politics and our various opposing views can go on forever.


----------



## OzPaleAle (7/9/13)

browndog said:


> I can't believe how many vindictive Lefty Jerks there are on this forum. Suck shit for tomorrow.


This forum is so anti Labour it even has Liberal ads running on the bottom of it.


----------



## OzPaleAle (7/9/13)

^^^ Sarcasm\joke for the record ^^^


----------



## jlm (7/9/13)

So the results are in. Yes, across the road from site,hamburger and yes to the below queries. Exciting times.


jlm said:


> Work's keeping on flinders island for a bit longer than intended. Will I be able to vote? Where is the polling place? What will the pub dish up for smoko tomorrow? Will tonight's session on boags draught and cascade stout result in a huge hangover?


----------



## Black Devil Dog (7/9/13)




----------



## kalbarluke (7/9/13)

One of my friends ran as an independent in my seat (Wright) today. About to go to the pub for a post election party to commiserate his loss. He knows he has no chance of winning - we just hope he gets 4% of the vote. It's going to be tough as the sitting member got 51% of the primary vote last election :-/


----------



## Mardoo (7/9/13)

Holy ****! 97 candidates below the line! Eeesh


----------



## manticle (7/9/13)

Yeah it was an effort. ******* paper was too wide for the booth.


----------



## browndog (7/9/13)

manticle said:


> Just people who think differently to you. I don't call you a Right Old arsehole just because I favour a different political ideal to you.
> 
> I've seen more vindictiveness in no chill threads to be honest.
> 
> PS. Anyone who thinks Labor is anything other than centrist right sitting slightly more left of liberal than abbot's left hand has rocks in the headA


Sorry Manticle, the theme I've observed here and on facebook generally is that my brothers who support Labor end up attacking/sniping the personality of the people they are arguing with. For my lot, I'll put my case and respect others views even if I do think they are wrong So anyyone who took offence, I'll apologise, and place some blame on the IPA I was drinking. I'll be happy when this is all over and people return to normal.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## manticle (7/9/13)

> For my lot, I'll put my case and respect others views even if I do think they are wrong


In that case, my vote goes to your IPA.

Both sides of politics do that attacking/sniping shit and it annoys me as much as you. Ever watched question time? Makes me wonder how we could vote for any of them. Whiny children, the lot of them


----------



## Mardoo (7/9/13)

manticle said:


> Yeah it was an effort. ******* paper was too wide for the booth.


Hell, did you actually manage to get informed about all those parties? If so please tell me how to find out who all the running parties are before the election. I'm new to voting in Australia and had zero clue about 60% of those groups.


----------



## manticle (7/9/13)

Google. AEC provide a rundown of who is running in what seat in house of reps and senate candidates. Most parties have a website that is usually linked from AEC (australian electoral commission). I am in the seat of batman so I googled election 2013 senate batman and got the info I was after.

I did my best but still had to google a couple of independents while I was in there.

Pain in the arse and while I think directing preferences is important, i can understand anyone just writing 1 in a box and letting the bullshit take its own course.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (7/9/13)

Numbering 1-110 on senate seat.......I numbeted in colums......put the party i liked in the first consec numbers....the nutters in the middle and the real nutters in the last numbers.....then went and got pissed


----------



## Liam_snorkel (7/9/13)

dagryll said:


> I don't understand why the coalition is against gay marriage. Abbot and Pyne are both gay and married. Seems like double standards to me.


George Brandis is gay too.


----------



## TasChris (7/9/13)

Glad that Tassie has done its best in the north of the state.

Can't wait for the Tassie state election now

One down one to go!!!

Cheers
Chris


----------



## philmud (7/9/13)

I for one welcome this fertile age for satire.


----------



## philmud (7/9/13)

How the **** is the Palmer party polling so well? The mans policies are a wank!


----------



## Bizier (7/9/13)

I think the lesson of this is that politics do not contribute much constructive input into a beer forum.


----------



## manticle (7/9/13)

None of the current politicians know how to drink one which is part of the problem.


----------



## Mardoo (7/9/13)

Phil Mud said:


> I for one welcome this fertile age for satire.


You know I grew up in the States in the Reagan era and he had a whole lot to do with the fertility of the punk rock scene there for that exact reason, so I guess if anything good is to come of this right-here, right-now political era it could be a hugely explosive and influential music scene of some sort.

And Bizier, too right!


----------



## Bizier (7/9/13)

I am going to start a band wearing funny hats called REVO.


I just saw a silver-backed chimp amongst the Abbot victory speech attendees. Oh wait, I have seen him before.


----------



## Mardoo (7/9/13)

Only a petite mutant could undergo re-evolution.


----------



## browndog (7/9/13)

Someone should have shot the woman screaming during Rudd's speech.


----------



## goomboogo (7/9/13)

browndog said:


> Someone should have shot the woman screaming during Rudd's speech.


Was she screaming because he would not stop talking?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (8/9/13)

3 years of epic satire begins.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (8/9/13)

Phil Mud said:


> How the **** is the Palmer party polling so well? The mans policies are a wank!


The bloke is a troll man, I almost voted for him just to see what would happen. No policy positions and from from what I can see is on the field just for kicks. Anyway I think he won Fairfax so the next 3 years will be hilarious.


----------



## philmud (8/9/13)

So has Abbott been given a mandate or did the electorate punish Labor? I think the latter - Abbott wasn't preferred PM in any polls until the past week or so and by and large there was fairly little vocal support for LNP policies. It seemed to be far more about kicking Labor out than bringing Abbott in.


----------



## punkin (8/9/13)

So people get what they deserve. The problem being the rest of us get what they deserve too.


----------



## browndog (8/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> The bloke is a troll man, I almost voted for him just to see what would happen. No policy positions and from from what I can see is on the field just for kicks. Anyway I think he won Fairfax so the next 3 years will be hilarious.


I can't see him going the distance, I reckon he will eventually get bored and resign. He should make things interesting in Parliament for a while. The cartoonists are going to have a field day.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/13)

How did Bob "the hat" Katter go


----------



## Beerisyummy (8/9/13)

> Someone should have shot the woman screaming during Rudd's speech.


Someone should have done the same to Rudd.

"I will not be running for leader of the Labour party again".

I'm sure I've heard that before. Just FOD already. Doesn't he realise he was thrown under a bus by his party during an unwinnable election campaign.
DOA.

Edit:
Just thought I should add I'm not a diehard fan of any political group. I was just having a read through the talk out of interest.
Policy promises will be broken and life will go on.

My business should be much better off and should get more room to grow. Time will tell.


----------



## Beerisyummy (8/9/13)

> How did Bob "the hat" Katter go


http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2013/guide/kenn/


----------



## manticle (8/9/13)

Mardoo said:


> Hell, did you actually manage to get informed about all those parties? If so please tell me how to find out who all the running parties are before the election. I'm new to voting in Australia and had zero clue about 60% of those groups.



Actually good summary here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Australia


----------



## Beerisyummy (8/9/13)

> Actually good summary here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Australia


That's a good start. Then do a little extra research on each.

2 weeks later...........


It's fairly scary just how many voters have no idea about who they are voting for.


----------



## Mardoo (8/9/13)

Beerisyummy said:


> It's fairly scary just how many voters have no idea about who they are voting for.


Much less who that creepy bloke in the mirror is.


----------



## treefiddy (8/9/13)

Beerisyummy said:


> It's fairly scary just how many voters have no idea about who they are voting for.



Which I hope was the case with Rise Up Australia.


----------



## Beerisyummy (8/9/13)

> Much less who that creepy bloke in the mirror is.


Are we talking Michael Jackson style or that half naked dentist?



> Which I hope was the case with Rise Up Australia.


Did you have a look at their website? Wow!
"We love everyone as long as they're not Muslims".

I wonder how they go in an electorate like Reid? http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2013/guide/reid/
Interesting to read the census stats on an area I've watched changing over the years.

Anyway boys, the fun stuff is going to come from the upper house.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/13)

Beerisyummy said:


> Anyway boys, the fun stuff is going to come from the upper house.


You are not wrong. I can see Abbotts head exploding with the senate


----------



## Mardoo (8/9/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You are not wrong. I can see Abbotts head exploding with the senate


Overly bold prediction: The Coalition will fall apart within 12 to 18 months.


----------



## Beerisyummy (8/9/13)

Very bold indeed. I can't see it happening personally, but that shouldn't stop you from having a dream. 

This election result should at least give the ALP a reason to get their act together and flush away some of the turds that have been stuck in the bowl for the last six years.


----------



## treefiddy (8/9/13)

Beerisyummy said:


> Anyway boys, the fun stuff is going to come from the upper house.


I dunno, Clive will probably be weeding out Chinese spies in the lower house which should be fun to watch.


----------



## Beerisyummy (8/9/13)

> I dunno, Clive will probably be weeding out Chinese spies in the lower house which should be fun to watch.


Weeding them out with his "sniffer" T Rex.


----------



## manticle (8/9/13)

Have been unable to find results for any of the far right racialist or fundamentalist nob ends.

Rise up, ON, au christians or christian democrats get anything?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (8/9/13)

Phil Mud said:


> So has Abbott been given a mandate or did the electorate punish Labor? I think the latter - Abbott wasn't preferred PM in any polls until the past week or so and by and large there was fairly little vocal support for LNP policies. It seemed to be far more about kicking Labor out than bringing Abbott in.


Just going by the statistics - LNP only gained 1.6% of the vote compared to the last election, and there was a 5.8% increase in support for independents / minor parties - so it looks like a protest vote more than anything. How else would one explain Palmer United doing so well?


----------



## mrTbeer (8/9/13)

Yes but going into the election the Coalition held more seats than ALP. That's a hung parliament for ya, they only ever made it work with support from Green/Indeps. So any swing would have retained the majority.
I'm still trying to accept that Clive is now my rep. In Canberra and he only got 27.5% of primary?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/13)

How many non Lib/Lab are in the new house of reps


----------



## Liam_snorkel (8/9/13)

On your first point: "coalition". says it all.

second point: It's called a preferential system and it makes a lot of sense. It prevents the vote for alike parties from being diluted.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (8/9/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> How many non Lib/Lab are in the new house of reps


Only 4. There are 17 in the senate..


----------



## Beerisyummy (8/9/13)

> How else would one explain Palmer United doing so well?


Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who have lost their jobs in mining and don't know any better. They are the people who are seriously voting for PUP.
It's just a shame they don't realise that the decline in the mining boom has very little to do with the carbon tax or the mining tax.

On top of that I think a lot of these minor parties really worked the beat in the lead up to the election. Meeting people face to face to sell your party makes a big difference.
Alas, all I received was stuff from Tony and one single flyer from the Greens. Maybe they were trying to save paper in a safe LNP seat.

The whole preference thing kinda blows when it comes to parties like PUP.
Who do I hate more? PUP, Rise up and Demonise all Muslims Australia or Fred Nile & Co? I nearly threw something at the Rise up mob that had taken over the car park near the Spit bridge.
I wish I could put them all last on the house of reps form.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/13)

Senate count as at 16:30ish......some interesting figures. Count is approx 9.5m from 14.7m voters

Palmer United 475k
Sex Party 128k
Family First 103k
Shooters & fishers 85k 
HEMP Party 66k
Motoring Enthusiasts 46k
Pirate Party 28k
Citizens Elect Counc 1,063


----------



## Beerisyummy (8/9/13)

Another fun set of stats to look at is the donkey votes for each electorate..........


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/13)

Rise Up 33k
One Nation 47k
Wikki Leaks 57k
Christian Democrates 55k

Informal 381k


----------



## Liam_snorkel (8/9/13)

Haha oh man. To lighten the tone, read this little writeup about the bloke who invaded Tony's stage during his victory speech. "Twiggy Palmcock"

http://dailytelegraph.com.au/news/intruder-upstages-tony-abbott8217s-victory-speech-by-sidling-to-him-and-his-daughters/story-fni0cx4q-1226714642730


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/13)

I love how Abbotts daughters are all dressed in virginal white


----------



## treefiddy (8/9/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I love how Abbotts daughters are all dressed in virginal white


They're not married, fool!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (8/9/13)

Thatsmeans I can marry one of them.Unfortunatly I will have to take one for the team


----------



## Mardoo (8/9/13)

Beerisyummy said:


> It's fairly scary just how many voters have no idea about who they are voting for.





Mardoo said:


> Much less who that creepy bloke in the mirror is.





Beerisyummy said:


> Are we talking Michael Jackson style or that half naked dentist?


 We're talking, "How does that thing work and who's that dude who's always there?"

http://youtu.be/_-agl0pOQfs


----------



## Mardoo (8/9/13)

Beerisyummy said:


> Very bold indeed. I can't see it happening personally, but that shouldn't stop you from having a dream.
> 
> This election result should at least give the ALP a reason to get their act together and flush away some of the turds that have been stuck in the bowl for the last six years.


Not a dream, I just can't see Abooot holding to promises he has made to the others and a possible revolt.

Labor needs to flush its turds. As a friend of mine in the PoliSci department at Harvard said about the Labor leadership rollovers, "You do know your government is the laughing stock of the world, don't you? It's better in Bangladesh!" The last three years have been appalling and Labor deserved the backhand it got.

Me? Not at all thrilled about Abooot, but it was inevitable.


----------



## spog (8/9/13)

Mardoo said:


> Overly bold prediction: The Coalition will fall apart within 12 to 18 months.


. Would this before or after Joe Hockey takes over as leader. ...cheers...spog...


----------



## Beerisyummy (8/9/13)

> Not a dream, I just can't see Abooot holding to promises he has made to the others and a possible revolt.
> 
> Labor needs to flush its turds. As a friend of mine in the PoliSci department at Harvard said about the Labor leadership rollovers, "You do know your government is the laughing stock of the world, don't you? It's better in Bangladesh!" The last three years have been appalling and Labor deserved the backhand it got.
> 
> Me? Not at all thrilled about Abooot, but it was inevitable.


WTF was that film clip? I nearly pissed my pants.
"Music is a miracle. You can't even touch it."

It's a fair point you make about a revolt. I agree with the part where Abbott will go back on his promises and piss people off, but I'm not sure a Labor style revolt will be the result.
If it does happen they may as well just bite the bullet and merge the major parties. As it is, none of them seem to run very left or right anyway.

I've always based my voting on what I think is best for the country rather than my own personal short term gains. IMO it was definitely time for Labor to go.
That doesn't mean I like Tony Abbott. I just want a stable government.


I wonder if the crikey cartoonist will remove the bucket from Tony's head now?


----------



## Beerisyummy (8/9/13)

> Thatsmeans I can marry one of them.Unfortunatly I will have to take one for the team


Not hard on the eye, are they.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (9/9/13)

I take back what I said about preferential voting making a lot of sense (at least in the senate).

"They include Wayne Dropulich, a gridiron-playing engineer who is likely to win election as a senator from Western Australia. His Australian Sports Party has no policies other than advocating lots of sport, and won just 0.22 per cent of the vote. But with preferences from other small parties, he is likely to get a Senate quota ahead of the second Labor candidate, who had 12.33 per cent.

In Victoria, Ricky Muir is set to win the final seat. He stood for the Australian Motoring Enthusiasts Party, which appears to have no policies apart from representing what it sees as motorists' interests. He won 0.53 per cent, but with a swag of preferences, he appears set to unseat Liberal senator Helen Kroger, who had 10.52 per cent.

In NSW, many voters facing a ballot paper of 45 party columns and 110 names responded by putting a 1 in the first box on the ballot paper, which belonged to a party calling itself "Liberal Democrats". An astonishing 8.88 per cent of voters voted for the Liberal Democrats, which will see the right-wing party's candidate and gun rights supporter David Leyonhjelm take a seat from Labor."

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/sport-and-motoring-enthusiasts-to-join-senate-in-new-hung-parliament-20130908-2tdqm.html


----------



## billygoat (9/9/13)

Many years ago Paul Keating referred to the senate as "unrepresentative swill".


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (9/9/13)

Cant see much actually happening in the near future. Abbott will have a hard time getting things through the senate.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (9/9/13)

I'm glad the LNP don't have a majority but sheesh. Two senators with no stated policy positions?

some good commentary by Annabel Crabb:

"And the strongest trend telegraphed by this new Senate appears, at this stage in the counting, to be a tremendous swing towards None Of The Above.

Last night's ABC projections were for the Coalition to have 33 Senate seats, and the ALP 25, with a staggering 18 seats for Greens, Palmerites, accidental Liberal Democrats, motoring enthusiasts, and so forth.

In order to pass legislation, Mr Abbott needs 39 Senate votes. So for every contentious item, he will be obliged to extract six helpers from the discordant collection of chancers the great Australian voting public saw fit to bestow upon him at the weekend. It is a parable of Biblical proportions. The man who so harshly punished Julia Gillard for succumbing to political circumstance in minority government now faces - after his own glorious victory - a living, breathing balance-of-power nightmare.

Perhaps the most sensible option, in these circumstances, might be simply to deal with the Opposition in the Senate? Hmmm; the last time a government dealt productively with an opposition over a key policy reform was in 2009, when Kevin Rudd and Malcolm Turnbull arrived at an agreement on carbon pricing, only to be blown up by… the man who was just elected prime minister.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-09/crabb-tony-abbott-prime-minister/4944780


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (9/9/13)

Can see it... "Mr Abbott,one of your key election promises was to scrap the carbon tax but now you are saying that we will be keeping it "

"No but I didnt write it down, now as I said before if it is not written down.............."


----------



## Mardoo (9/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> "In NSW, many voters facing a ballot paper of 45 party columns and 110 names responded by putting a 1 in the first box on the ballot paper, which belonged to a party calling itself "Liberal Democrats". An astonishing 8.88 per cent of voters voted for the Liberal Democrats, which will see the right-wing party's candidate and gun rights supporter David Leyonhjelm take a seat from Labor."


Urgh! What's that drilling through my forehead!!! Jesus, Mary and Jesus Jr, that is just screwed.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (9/9/13)

wow. the bloke is legitimately mental:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-09/nsw-sends-liberal-democrat-to-senate/4945080


----------



## Beerisyummy (9/9/13)

Wow, I had heard about the Liberal democrats getting a heap of dodgy votes. Didn't realise just how batshit crazy they were.

""What happens is that criminals don't know who's carrying a gun and they're very wary of using a gun themselves because they don't know who's going to shoot back at them," he said."
Somehow I don't think a criminal gives a rats arse once they've decided to pull a gun.
What happens is that once someone's started pulling the trigger people get shot and the person doing the shooting doesn't **** about.
Shit fight in the OK corral.
Sounds like a great place to live, short as your life may be.

"In actual fact it's a massive deterrent. You don't make a safer society by taking the guns off the good guys and leaving the bad guys to have the guns."
It's bad enough that ( as a law abiding citizen)you're more likely to get shot by the police in this state. Somehow many "good" citizens with guns are going to curb the gun violence in western Sydney.
Yeh Ha!!!


----------



## Dave70 (9/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> wow. the bloke is legitimately mental:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-09/nsw-sends-liberal-democrat-to-senate/4945080


No, no - I think he's onto something.

*He also says it is an "objective fact" that the Sandy Hook school massacre in the United States could have been avoided if teachers had been armed.*

Right, because its an 'objective fact' that a psychopath armed with a two automatic pistols and an assault rifle is *no match* for a petrified teacher attempting desperately to heard a classroom full of hysterically frightened and confused first graders out of harms way whilst fumbling for a government issued handgun.


----------



## Beerisyummy (9/9/13)

> No, no - I think he's onto something.
> 
> *He also says it is an "objective fact" that the Sandy Hook school massacre in the United States could have been avoided if teachers had been armed.[/size]*
> 
> Right, because its an 'objective fact' that a psychopath armed with a two automatic pistols and an assault rifle is *no match* for a petrified teacher attempting desperately to heard a classroom full of hysterically frightened and confused first graders out of harms way whilst fumbling for a government issued handgun.


You're forgetting that in la la land the good guys always win.

Can you imagine a teacher firing off a few rounds at an attacker in an Australian school demountable block? Just as dangerous as the attacker.
Maybe they should give the teachers assault rifles instead.


----------



## goomboogo (9/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> No, no - I think he's onto something.
> 
> *He also says it is an "objective fact" that the Sandy Hook school massacre in the United States could have been avoided if teachers had been armed.*
> 
> Right, because its an 'objective fact' that a psychopath armed with a two automatic pistols and an assault rifle is *no match* for a petrified teacher attempting desperately to heard a classroom full of hysterically frightened and confused first graders out of harms way whilst fumbling for a government issued handgun.


Obviously, you haven't seen Kindergarten Cop.


----------



## mwd (9/9/13)

Looks like Pauline has won a seat and Clive Palmer may have two. Hi Ho its off to work we go.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (9/9/13)

Reckon she'll be there just to cause trouble (since Abbott is the one who got her sent to prison)?


----------



## warra48 (9/9/13)

OK guys and girls,

The election is finished, just get over it, get back to brewing and drinking beer.
Just think, in about 3 years time, you can do it all over again.

You voted, and guess what, you elected POLITICIANS !!!!


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (9/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Reckon she'll be there just to cause trouble (since Abbott is the one who got her sent to prison)?


Yes. Funny how things come back to haunt you


----------



## Tony (9/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> wow. the bloke is legitimately mental:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-09/nsw-sends-liberal-democrat-to-senate/4945080


When they drop the baby bonus and start handing our automatic weapons that can be used to shoot dickhead on unregistered dirtbikes with the mufflers cut off and V6 commodores doing burnouts up and down subusrbourn streets, it will be a wonderful day.

I will take an AK47


----------



## Liam_snorkel (9/9/13)

It would certainly make things interesting. WB Tony.


----------



## spog (9/9/13)

Tony said:


> When they drop the baby bonus and start handing our automatic weapons that can be used to shoot dickhead on unregistered dirtbikes with the mufflers cut off and V6 commodores doing burnouts up and down subusrbourn streets, it will be a wonderful day.
> 
> I will take an AK47


. Welcome back Tony...cheers...spog.....


----------



## punkin (10/9/13)

Tony said:


> When they drop the baby bonus and start handing our automatic weapons that can be used to shoot dickhead on unregistered dirtbikes with the mufflers cut off and V6 commodores doing burnouts up and down subusrbourn streets, it will be a wonderful day.
> 
> I will take an AK47



Nearly got run over at a petrol station yesterday by some shelia in a commodore that thought it was ok to do 30 kph through the bowsers to get to the toilet block.

Had to suffice with a sharp word with her that could have easily been solved in a more emphatic fashion if both of us were armed.


----------



## OzPaleAle (10/9/13)

A vid series about everyones favorite person Rupert Murdoch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEARxJ1XA4Q


----------



## sponge (10/9/13)

The amount of people you let in whilst driving and don't receive a friendly wave through the back window..

Who needs to mumble to themselves when you're an arm-bearing driver and can much easily get the point across that they missed their chance to stick their hand up towards the roof of their car to appreciate the gesture?

Should allow for horns and blinkers to be made redundant also. With cuts like these to the cars, the car manufacturing industry in australia should be able to flourish from here on.





...I'm at a round-a-bout, need to get off at the third exit. Just need to shoot the people looking to sneak in at the first and second exits and all will be right in the world once more...


----------



## punkin (10/9/13)

I don't use my horn or blinkers anyway. I'm trying to save electricity.


----------



## mrTbeer (10/9/13)

I'm not scared of Rupert Murdoch, just need to wear an alfoil hat and I'm safe from the influence of the Courier Mail and its funny headlines.

If you're silly enough to pay for Fox TV? you might be Billy Hunt and vote ALP 2010 and LNP 2013. Whatever.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (10/9/13)

Clive stirring the pot already. This is fun.

"CLIVE Palmer has called for a full review of Australia's voting system after claiming he cannot win a lower house seat due to Australia's "corrupt system"."

"He said that at two booths in Coolum, 60 per cent of the vote went to the Palmer United Party yet the pre-polling vote only had the party at 37 per cent - a major irregularity.

"The AEC said in writing before the election that pre-polling would be counted before Saturday night but that never happened," Mr Palmer said.

"So you've got a whole lot of votes that were left unsecured and a lot have not got AEC signatures on them so who knows what's been added and taken out of that box. They should be informal."

"He said if he fails to win Fairfax, two PUP candidates expected to be elected to the Senate will block Tony Abbott's policies unless electoral reform is promised."

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/clive-tells-media-he-wont-win-lower-house-seats/2015471/?ref=hs


----------



## mrTbeer (10/9/13)

It's gonna be a long litigious 3 years if he gets in.
He claims to win every time he sues and he threatens to sue someone new almost weekly.
A lawyer-bird told me the his 'legal scoreboard' tells another story though. 

Would be wrong to have Senator (brick) Lazarus cock-block everything especially since PUP policy #1 = LNP policy #1. ie. repeal carbon tax


----------



## Liam_snorkel (10/9/13)

yeah, Clive loves to litigate. If he loses he'd probably sue the AEC or something haha.


----------



## Dave70 (10/9/13)

Fucken Palmer is about one oyster Kirkpatrick / veal parmigiana counter lunch away from a quadruple bypass, surely. 

How long can he last?

He's so fat.


----------



## mwd (10/9/13)

Kevin Rudd being asked to quit politics by some of the Labor losers. Guess he can live comfortably numb on his pension and wife's millions.


----------



## Dave70 (11/9/13)

Introducing (​honorary) ​ _professor _Gillard. 
This lecture circuit gig can be a tidy little earner if you play you cards right. Clinton it's said, has earned over 50 million since becoming a private citizen.
Not bad for an alleged rapist, a philandering liar who fucked around with the help and bully.

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/south-australia/ex-pm-julia-gillard-appointed-honorary-professor-of-politics-at-university-of-adelaide/story-fnii5yv4-1226716414854


----------



## Liam_snorkel (11/9/13)

Not sure if a few lectures at Adelaide uni will be quite the money spinner. Send an email to Downer to ask how much he made?


----------



## Black Devil Dog (11/9/13)

Very distasteful way to treat someone at any time, but in this instance, supposedly just because of how they vote. Hypocrisy knows no bounds, as witnessed on this site.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (11/9/13)

What do you even mean by that? This thread has been fairly civil, and mindless abuse on twitter is hardly a new phenomenon.


----------



## Dave70 (11/9/13)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Very distasteful way to treat someone at any time, but in this instance, supposedly just because of how they vote. *Hypocrisy knows no bounds, as witnessed on this site.*


Oh piss off.

Just show me one 500 example(s) of that..


----------



## punkin (11/9/13)

Dave70 said:


> Introducing (​honorary) ​ _professor _Gillard.
> This lecture circuit gig can be a tidy little earner if you play you cards right. Clinton it's said, has earned over 50 million since becoming a private citizen.
> Not bad for an alleged rapist, a philandering liar who fucked around with the help and bully.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national-news/south-australia/ex-pm-julia-gillard-appointed-honorary-professor-of-politics-at-university-of-adelaide/story-fnii5yv4-1226716414854



No were near as good as sitting on boards.

The amount of obscure boards who have ridiculous fees for their members who don't actually have to do anything....

Well, it's not technically corruption is it?

If a lobby group has a company that pays huge fees to board members who just turn up for one or two meetings a year?


SomeAreTaxDeductablePunkin


----------



## Liam_snorkel (13/9/13)

Clive Palmer is providing a constant source of amusement for me

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/palmer-takes-aim-at-military-aec-20130912-2tnel.html


----------



## kevo (13/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Clive Palmer is providing a constant source of amusement for me
> 
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/palmer-takes-aim-at-military-aec-20130912-2tnel.html


Is the old bloke on the right of the picture in cardiac arrest or taking a dump?


----------



## punkin (13/9/13)

So you think it's funny to have a complete mental case in a position to influence the running of the country?

GodHelpUsPunkin


----------



## treefiddy (13/9/13)

punkin said:


> So you think it's funny to have a complete mental case in a position to influence the running of the country?


I see what you did there...


----------



## Liam_snorkel (13/9/13)

he's no more mental than most politicians, just significantly more vocal about it, and nobody is pissing in his pockets to keep him quiet.

edit: less =/= more.


----------



## punkin (13/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> he's no less mental than most politicians, just significantly more vocal about it, and nobody is pissing in his pockets to keep him quiet.





> "It's a bad thing because those people have links to the military and they have a network and camaraderie within the AEC because they have a common background," he said.
> "I think they may give orders to people in the system.



right then.


----------



## browndog (13/9/13)

Albanese and Shorten in the running for Opposition Leader, Albanese certainly looks the good over Shorten, but how long will he last before Shorten gets the itch again.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (13/9/13)

punkin said:


> right then.


http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/if-you-like-sarah-palin-youll-absolutely-love-cory-bernardi/390/


----------



## goomboogo (13/9/13)

kevo said:


> Is the old bloke on the right of the picture in cardiac arrest or taking a dump?


He's in the process of producing the next policy gem for the Palmer Party.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/13)

Clive wont be able to block much in the senate. He only has 2 senaters which would only usefull if the senate vote was split and it came down to only 2 votes.....not going to happen that often.. He might one day realise that he is not as powerfull as the constitution


----------



## mrTbeer (13/9/13)

Likely to be a whole bunch of loose senators. Those 2 votes will count, I heard he may only get 1 in senate though.


----------



## Northside Novice (13/9/13)

punkin said:


> So you think it's funny to have a complete mental case in a position to influence the running of the country? GodHelpUsPunkin




Punkin didn't the majority elect a complete mental case as the prime minister ? Now that is a tad funny


----------



## Dave70 (13/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Clive Palmer is providing a constant source of amusement for me
> 
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/palmer-takes-aim-at-military-aec-20130912-2tnel.html


You would think a bloke worth about 8 billion would get his shirts custom made. Those poor buttons.

I dunno, but the old bloke on the right looks to me as if he's just / is cutting the cheese.


----------



## jlm (13/9/13)

northside novice said:


> Clive is a living ledgend , just hope he comes up with the hover board for everyone policy befor bttf is proved to be wrong !!!!


Well he'll sue everyone and everything within reach (I'm currently putting the deed to my dog's house into a trust incase this post offends him) if he puts forward that policy......potentially from outside parliament......and it doesn't come to fruition.


----------



## Northside Novice (13/9/13)

have you even seen the movie ? would be more worried for your dog... clive is a hungry man :icon_drool2:


----------



## spog (13/9/13)

browndog said:


> Albanese and Shorten in the running for Opposition Leader, Albanese certainly looks the good over Shorten, but how long will he last before Shorten gets the itch again.


Albenese should see a doctor about that itch,and Shorten the odds of it ever happening,but I doubt he would ever win,actually he hasn't a snow balls chance in hell. Imo. ....cheers..spog....


----------



## Forever Wort (13/9/13)

Strange times in Australian politics, but I guess everyone always thinks that. The Shorten/Albanese contest is keeping me interested until the new Government gets its act together. I err on the side of Albanese but would be happy enough with either. Plibersek strikes me as competent too. But of course, politician's true colours (i.e. compromises) don't really shine through for the general public until they are put in a serious position of leadership, so it is hard to speculate with certainty who would end up Leader of the Opposition with Most Integrity.


----------



## manticle (13/9/13)

Pliberseke would get my vote.


----------



## bradsbrew (13/9/13)

Happy to see that the members get a say in who their leader is.


----------



## Forever Wort (13/9/13)

That's true. It may be the only positive legacy of Kevin Rudd's second Prime Ministership. If it is technically called that.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (13/9/13)

Plibersek was a good health minister....She struck me as a no bullshit sort of person


----------



## Forever Wort (13/9/13)

Yes, she was good on Q&A the other night too. She is on the ticket with Shorten, but if I had my pick I would put her deputy behind Albanese.


----------



## browndog (13/9/13)

It would be great to see some new faces come through that are not part of the rudd/gillard/rudd wars. I 'm of the opinion that Jason Clare could go a long way in politics.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (13/9/13)

I can't see Albo as PM material. His demeanour is so relaxed, even when he gets fired up its like someone arguing over when to flip a steak at a barbecue. Shorten could pull it off. It's all about who wants to cop it as the greasy pancake. 
Tanya Pilbersek is intelligent and quick, I could get behind her but give it a few years. What I think and what everybody else does are very different things.


----------



## mrTbeer (14/9/13)

Albanese, Shorten, Plibersek makes no difference, no one remembers the opposition leader. I still don't get why Rudd busted a gut only to resign as soon as he lost??


----------



## Liam_snorkel (14/9/13)

Because of the new leadership rules that butt-hurt Rudd introduced they are stuck with a leader until they resign, so whoever takes the job now will likely be their contender at the next election.


----------



## Forever Wort (14/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Because of the new leadership rules that butt-hurt Rudd introduced they are stuck with a leader until they resign, so whoever takes the job now will likely be their contender at the next election.


Mmmm. But a little consistency in leadership shouldn't hurt Labor right about now.


----------



## pcmfisher (14/9/13)

That's the way ALP, keep squabbling over leadership.

Slow learners I reckon.


----------



## dougsbrew (14/9/13)

Yeah, she speaks - still liking the word 'guts' I see, great vocab for a PM. 
Heres article of her bruised ego, attacking her own party member the Rudstar.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/julia-gillard-launches-scathing-attack-on-kevin-rudd-and-the-pain-she-still-feels-over-being-dumped/story-fnii5s3y-1226719034631


----------



## Liam_snorkel (14/9/13)

If that's your benchmark for poor vocabulary, I'd hate to think how you rate our new PM. Here's the actual article if anyone wants to read it. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/13/julia-gillard-labor-purpose-future


----------



## Forever Wort (14/9/13)

dougsbrew said:


> Yeah, she speaks - still liking the word 'guts' I see, great vocab for a PM.
> Heres article of her bruised ego, attacking her own party member the Rudstar.
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/julia-gillard-launches-scathing-attack-on-kevin-rudd-and-the-pain-she-still-feels-over-being-dumped/story-fnii5s3y-1226719034631


A more balanced and interesting write-up of the same article:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-14/julia-gillard-slams-labors-leadership-rules/4957886

She has a point but Labor needs some consistency and unity right now, if they are ever to display strong opposition to The Abbott's conservatism. Hopefully the ballot system will put either Albanese or Shorten in leadership with a minimum of fuss. They are both promising "positive" campaigns.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/13)

Both parties have had their leadership issues. They are just at different times to each other. remember Howard/Costello then Abbott/Turnbull. At the end of the day they are both parties are as bad as each other


----------



## Forever Wort (14/9/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> At the end of the day both parties are as bad as each other


Hard to argue with that, but due to the preferential voting system a choice between the two always needs to be made ...


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/13)

Well if the libs didnt have the National party things would be different. It is interesting to note that there are more labor MP's than Liberal...but once you add tha Nats things change. If anything its the Nats who get the Libs into power.


----------



## Forever Wort (14/9/13)

True. People often shorthand the Liberals for the Coalition, which is often fine but can sometimes compromise the statement.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/13)

And the Nats are week as ****. They just tow the liberal line like sheep


----------



## goomboogo (14/9/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Well if the libs didnt have the National party things would be different. It is interesting to note that there are more labor MP's than Liberal...but once you add tha Nats things change. If anything its the Nats who get the Libs into power.


Three more years of minority government.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (14/9/13)

You could say that considering they only have control of the lower house.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (16/9/13)

Thoughts on the new shrunken cabinet?

Ministry positions gone: Citizenship, Multicultural Affairs, Science, International Development, Youth, Climate Change, Disability.

New: Border Protection.


----------



## RelaxedBrewer (16/9/13)

THe fact that we now have a minister for border protection but not, Science or Climate Change sickens me a little.


----------



## GuyQLD (16/9/13)

We have to protect what's ours no matter the cost! If it's even worth protecting in another 15-20 years.


----------



## Forever Wort (16/9/13)

Bowen's response: the Cabinet of Afghanistan now has more women than the Cabinet of Australia.

I am not too fussed by the Ministry changes, really. The individual policies are what should be judged.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (16/9/13)

Or lack thereof.


----------



## spog (16/9/13)

Remind me again,what did the ALP do with their boss lady,australias first female PM !. Pack of 2 faced wankers. ..cheers...spog..


----------



## Liam_snorkel (16/9/13)




----------



## Ducatiboy stu (16/9/13)

Big Clive on Q&A tonight....


----------



## Forever Wort (16/9/13)

Ah shit I missed it. Gotta iView that jazz.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/9/13)

He has a sense of humour....and a DGAF attitude


----------



## dougsbrew (17/9/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Big Clive on Q&A tonight....


He wants to (has started to} take the electoral office to court for vote tampering. heres article.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/clive-palmer-calls-for-new-election-in-fairfax-20130916-2tuc5.html


----------



## WarmBeer (17/9/13)

The vote is over. The bad guys won. Can we put this thread to bed for another 4 years, already?


----------



## Liam_snorkel (17/9/13)

3 years.


----------



## WarmBeer (17/9/13)

No, I said 4 and I meant 4. I don't want to hear about it in the lead up to the next one, either.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (17/9/13)

haha fair enough, just ignore the thread.


----------



## goomboogo (17/9/13)

Set, five year terms might be nice.


----------



## Forever Wort (17/9/13)

A benevolent dictator in power who does what I say would be nice.


----------



## OzPaleAle (17/9/13)

Forever Wort said:


> A benevolent dictator in power who does what I say would be nice.


And subsidises home brewers for the contribution to society they offer.


----------



## WarmBeer (17/9/13)

OzPaleAle said:


> And penalizes home brewers for the excise to the taxman they avoid.


FTFY


----------



## TasChris (17/9/13)

Forever Wort said:


> A benevolent dictator in power who does what I say would be nice.


I agree as long as the benevolent dictator is me


----------



## pk.sax (17/9/13)

Put me down as in line if you pass on it.


----------



## pk.sax (17/9/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Thoughts on the new shrunken cabinet?Ministry positions gone: Citizenship, Multicultural Affairs, Science, International Development, Youth, Climate Change, Disability.New: Border Protection.


I doubt he has the depth in the party ranks to actually fill such ministries. They'd only be embarrassed. In terms of economic prudence, Abbot should be asking for a refund in advance on the salaries he expects to pay himself and the ministry for the next three years. That'd be a good start. He could then hire decent skilled people for that money to run the show.


----------



## Forever Wort (18/9/13)

Big news for ACT residents as The Abbott comes jogging in. And probably bad news for AusAID and poverty reduction in general.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-18/abbott-sacks-three-public-service-bosses-as-first-act/4965690


----------



## Dave70 (20/9/13)

Even after all these years, I still cant figure out what the **** Joe was trying to say. Ever.


http://youtu.be/9qervIo6Px0


----------



## Liam_snorkel (20/9/13)

heh, politicians say the darnedest things.

a little observation
http://theaimn.com/2013/09/20/the-elephant-in-the-room/


----------



## Liam_snorkel (21/9/13)

Haha, genius! Tone fulfilling his "stop the boats" mantra by adding a few words; "stop telling you about the boats". 

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/veil-of-silence-descends-on-asylum-boat-arrivals-20130920-2u5t5.html


----------



## Forever Wort (21/9/13)

Yeah, strange times. My partner works with asylum seekers so I get the scoop on a daily basis. 

It appears so far that Abbott is being _immediately _regressive on many issues Australia _could _be making real progress on. I.e. gender, climate change, asylum seekers. 

We are taking a step back. Let's hope the actual policies will not be as detrimental as is being augured.


----------



## philmud (22/9/13)

How's the Coalition now refusing to report on boat arrival numbers? Stop the boats from day one they said! These are the arrogant pricks we have elected, they'll decide what we're allowed to know! Can you imagine how it would have gone down if the ALP declined to tell the public how many boats were arriving?!


----------



## Bridges (24/9/13)

Augers well when, they are already breaking promises, not that this is one they could ever hope to keep.


----------



## philmud (24/9/13)

Bridges said:


> Augers well when, they are already breaking promises, not that this is one they could ever hope to keep.


No, because despite their insistence while in opposition, immigration policy is not the driving factor behind boat arrivals. Civil war, persecution, torture - those things are.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (24/9/13)

Ahh, politicians. Bless their black little hearts.


----------



## Droopy Brew (26/9/13)




----------



## Liam_snorkel (7/10/13)

pointing fingers with snouts firmly in the trough.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/peter-slipper-slams-breathtaking-double-standards-over-mps-expense-entitlements-20131007-2v3gp.html


----------



## warra48 (7/10/13)

Can we please lock this thread till some time in 2016 ?
It's all over, done and dusted, new government firmly in place till then.
No amount of bitching will get rid of them.
Be philosophical, accept the reality, and lose yourself in a bevy or two or three of your best beers.
So, who's for another beer?


----------



## punkin (7/10/13)

Elections being over does not mean there is no politics to talk of. The thread was not started about elections, but about poplitics.

How bout you just stop clicking and let others discuss things rather than call for locking what you don't like?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (7/10/13)

The politics have only just begun..


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## browndog (7/10/13)

Shorten or Albanese? bit of a rock and a hard place if you ask me. I'd like to see Jason Clare leading the ALP, he seems like a straightforward no bullshit kind of person.


----------



## Bridges (7/10/13)

Met Shorten at a union event. If he's allowed to run his own race he's a no BS bloke who I'd love to be in charge. It's about appeasing the rest of the party though.


----------



## browndog (7/10/13)

Bridges said:


> Met Shorten at a union event. If he's allowed to run his own race he's a no BS bloke who I'd love to be in charge. It's about appeasing the rest of the party though.


He's carrying a lot of baggage though. I bet there are a lot of people in the Labor Party that would like to knife him in the back.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (7/10/13)

Prob wont matter for the first year.


----------



## pcmfisher (8/10/13)

I would have thought the ALP would be after some unity.

Shorten was the cause of a lot of their instability.

He should be told to sit in the corner and not say a word for a couple of years and hope people forget.


----------



## wide eyed and legless (8/10/13)

I think the whole of the opposition should go and keep him company then, they could unify in the corner.


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## TasChris (8/10/13)

browndog said:


> Shorten or Albanese? bit of a rock and a hard place if you ask me. I'd like to see Jason Clare leading the ALP, he seems like a straightforward no bullshit kind of person.


I'd prefer Julian Clary to Jason Clare to lead the ALP


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## Black Devil Dog (8/10/13)

What the ALP members have to decide, is which one has the greater celebrity status.


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## labels (8/10/13)

My small business (employs 6) went very close to the edge under Labor. Since a change in government it has been brought back from the brink (quite literally, we were as little as 2 weeks off closing down). We now have more work than we can throw a stick at.

It's an amazing transition. Six families now feel more secure of their future.

The election result is not so much a distrust of Labor as a brand of government but more that a minority government with independents and small parties (Greens) does not work and creates instability which clearly happened. A lot of self interest by those people that was not in the national interest.

Back to the point, as a small business operator (manufacturer) I speak to a lot of other small business people - and larger ones as well and the picture is all the same, a massive pick-up starting from the Monday after the election and is getting stronger and stronger day by day.

I feel good for a change. We put all our savings back into the company to keep the employees on and now we have virtually nothing in the bank but at least we have work. We can start again now.

-S


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## Liam_snorkel (8/10/13)

Has anything policy-wise changed that affected your business since the election, or was it more a change in confidence from your clients/customers. People believe things are better, therefore they are?


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## labels (8/10/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Has anything policy-wise changed that affected your business since the election, or was it more a change in confidence from your clients/customers. People believe things are better, therefore they are?


I don't know Liam. Policies have not really changed since the election, they haven't had time to make any noticable changes and Parliament doesn't meet for another few weeks yet. You're probably right, people think things are better, but then sometimes that's all it takes - a different attitude and a renewed level of confidence. I'm not anti-Labor but sit slightly to the right generally. The Gillard/Rudd thing wasn't good for Labor, the country or consumer confidence. It hurt small business big time with a lot going out of business. We had a world-wide recession and are well aware of that but the last complex, messy administration made it much worse in Australia than it needed to be IMHO.
-S


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## manticle (8/10/13)

Things in AU were pretty good compared to the rest of the world under Rudd/Gillard.

Like you suggest, it might be perception and confidence. Don't want to denigrate your first hand experience either.


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## Liam_snorkel (8/10/13)

I don't disagree with anything you said labels. It annoys me that public confidence can be swayed by personality and a media obsessed with drama, instead of policy and big picture discussion.


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## wide eyed and legless (9/10/13)

Australia has done better than most other countries while riding on the back of China that is why the recession was very mild here compared to the rest of the world. Confidence is what drives not only an economy but an individual need to succeed, if we didn't have confidence in our ability we would never have a go, confidence and a good business plan equals success


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## TasChris (9/10/13)

manticle said:


> Things in AU were pretty good compared to the rest of the world under Rudd/Gillard.


Not a personal attack Manticle but the above statement gets on my wick.
I don't care how Australia is going compared to the rest of the world or any other grab sample of countries.

The comparison should always be "how is Australia going compared to how we should or could be going".
Either side of politics will always find a country as an example that proves their point of view. ie we are going much better than Botswana or we are not going as well as Germany

Was Australia going as well as it could have under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd?
I think we all know the answer to that question.

Cheers
Chris


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## Forever Wort (9/10/13)

The leadership mess from 2010-13 was ridiculous and unfortunate but I sincerely believe Australia did better from 2007-13 than it would have done under an Howard or Abbott government. 

Of course, my criteria may be different to yours.


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## Liam_snorkel (9/10/13)

There was certainly some lack of confidence. This is evidenced by the immediate boost in business confidence this month and a slight boost in consumer confidence immediately following the election.

How much of that was to do with the minority govt, media obsession with drama over policy, or opposition claiming that there was a "budget emergency", "wrecking ball to the economy", "great big new tax" other such BS week in week out and people _believing_ it, is another question. The fact that the LNP fiscal outlook is virtually identical to the previous government tells me that all the posturing over debt was purely that; posturing.


----------



## OzPaleAle (9/10/13)

TasChris said:


> The comparison should always be "how is Australia going compared to how we should or could be going".


By that comparison we are doing very poorly in my books.

I still have to go to work each day and can't eat food thats bad for you!
I want the government that lets me sit at the beach all day drinking beer and eating potato cakes with lots of salt!


----------



## manticle (9/10/13)

TasChris said:


> Not a personal attack Manticle but the above statement gets on my wick.
> I don't care how Australia is going compared to the rest of the world or any other grab sample of countries.
> 
> The comparison should always be "how is Australia going compared to how we should or could be going".
> ...


keep in mind the context was Labels' statement "We had a world-wide recession and are well aware of that but the last complex, messy administration made it much worse in Australia than it needed to be"


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## TasChris (9/10/13)

manticle said:


> keep in mind the context was Labels' statement "We had a world-wide recession and are well aware of that but the last complex, messy administration made it much worse in Australia than it needed to be"


Yep I acknowledge that, however the phrase " compared to X,Y,Z, Australia is doing...." is often used in media and politics and is essentially a meaningless throw away statement .


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## pat_00 (9/10/13)

My work is still dead as. It looks like it will pick up in a few months though.

I don't think it is specifically anything to do with Labour v Liberal. It's just the dip in confidence that happens around an election. It is more severe than usual I think due to the increased viciousness of the media campaigns surrounding the election. Media has such a huge sway over consumer confidence, which filters through to general business confidence. And some media outlets (Murdoch, I'm looking in your direction you slimey ****) really ran riot scaring the shit out of everybody.

It's kinda stupid cause people in my industry hold off on placing orders until after the election, and nothing usually changes till the next financial year anyway.


----------



## Forever Wort (9/10/13)

On that note of how the election more generally is affecting workplaces, since the change in government my office has had three resignations and made two redundancies. It has also let agency staff go and restructured a number of employees' hours, including my own. I now have to cycle to work at the chipper time of 6AM, just as the sun is peeking out from the hills east of my place.

The reconstitution of departments and ministries has directly affected our business; this is not to say it would be any different if the Greens had won the election instead of the Coalition, it is just a fact of life when the majority of your clients are government.


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## manticle (9/10/13)

TasChris said:


> Yep I acknowledge that, however the phrase " compared to X,Y,Z, Australia is doing...." is often used in media and politics and is essentially a meaningless throw away statement .


Only a meaningless, throwaway statement if it's not contextualised which in any decent article it will be. Same meaningless bunkum is applied to the notion of 'economic mismanagement' being applied only to Labour Governments and sensible handling of an economy being applied only to conservative governments.

There were far greater failures of the last government than their economic management.

Having a point of comparison is not a bad thing - keeps people grounded. I accept what you are saying but not as a dogmatic truth - just as a perspective. "Is this as good as it could be?" is an important question but so is "is this as bad as it could be?"


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## pcmfisher (9/10/13)

Forever Wort said:


> The reconstitution of departments and ministries has directly affected our business; this is not to say it would be any different if the Greens had won the election instead of the Coalition, it is just a fact of life when the majority of your clients are government.


If the Greens won the election? WTF?

We can only pray to God/Allah/Buddha that the Greens never again have any more power than they had with our previous Government.


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## Liam_snorkel (9/10/13)

They didn't have much, really.


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## dougsbrew (9/10/13)

Perks, those scoundrels. Check out Swanny here - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/wayne-swan-used-vip-jet-trips-to-fly-to-grand-finals-with-his-daughter/story-fn59niix-1226735248970
It amazes me that people voted for him and he won his seat after an appalling
display on estimates and attack on one of their own, Rudd. Palmer is right - vote tampering.


----------



## manticle (9/10/13)

This whole entitlement thing is going to fill the papers till something more interesting comes along but this statement (and this is not about sides of politics - I reckon this will cut both ways) is telling:



> _“I was invited_ as the acting prime minister. For decades, the prime minister has been to both of those grand finals, and it is a requirement when you are prime minister or acting prime minister, because of security, to travel in the way that I travelled.”


I have no idea whether his trips nor any others are legit but I can bet the last hair on my cat's body that 'waste of taxpayer's money' and travel rorts are the next big non-issue we will see in the near future.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (9/10/13)

at least it's a change from flippin' boats.


----------



## manticle (9/10/13)

Presumably the money that abbot has paid back is going into his buy the boats scheme. Might have a raffle and a sausage sizzle too.


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## Liam_snorkel (9/10/13)

dougsbrew said:


> Perks, those scoundrels. Check out Swanny here - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/wayne-swan-used-vip-jet-trips-to-fly-to-grand-finals-with-his-daughter/story-fn59niix-1226735248970
> It amazes me that people voted for him and he won his seat after an appalling
> display on estimates and attack on one of their own, Rudd. Palmer is right - vote tampering.



Perks, those scoundrels. Check out Abbott here - http://www.news.com.au/national-news/prime-minister-tony-abbott-claimed-over-10000-for-family-travel-in-2012/story-fncynjr2-1226735051089 
It amazes me people voted for him and he won after an appalling
display of nothing but three word slogans, scaremongering, & photo ops. Palmer is right - dinosaurs rule.

Tongue firmly in cheek


----------



## dougsbrew (10/10/13)

Yes those scoundrels here - http://www.news.com.au/national-news/australian-mps-now-among-the-highest-paid-in-the-world/story-fncynjr2-1226681596923
How soon we all forget about those massive pay rises to cut out those perks.
Good point on security issues manticle, that side of the expense is quite acceptable. 
Though hopefully they can hire someone with better vegemite sandwich blocking skills.


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## Liam_snorkel (10/10/13)

Clive providing us with some light entertainment:

http://media.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/selections/palmersaurus-park-is-coming-4814691.html


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## wide eyed and legless (10/10/13)

I wonder if he calls his dick Palmerspenusaurus


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## Liam_snorkel (10/10/13)

because he'd have to dig it out like a fossil.


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## Liam_snorkel (10/10/13)

More of Clive being hilarious:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/newman-calls-palmer-on-claims/story-e6frgczx-1226735730914


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## philmud (11/10/13)

Regardless of whether you're supportive of marriage equality, how do you feel about the AG mounting a high court challenge to block the ACT government from introducing it? Can they whinge about the ALP not respecting the political will of the electorate (re: possible blocking in the senate of carbon tax removal) if they do this? From what I understand, marriage equality has overwhelming support in the ACT.


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## Liam_snorkel (11/10/13)

it has overwhelming support nationwide really. There's no doubt that by denying the LNP a conscience vote, Abbott is pursuing a personal agenda.



> Galaxy Research polling (2009-2012) shows:
> 
> 64% of Australians support marriage equality,
> A majority of Christians (53%) support marriage equality,
> ...


http://www.australianmarriageequality.com/wp/who-supports-equality/a-majority-of-australians-support-marriage-equality/


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## philmud (11/10/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> it has overwhelming support nationwide really. There's no doubt that by denying the LNP a conscience vote, Abbott is pursuing a personal agenda.


I agree, though Abbott can at least justify his continued opposition by pointing to the fact that his party was elected with a transparent position on marriage equality. 

I believe the ACT government was elected on a platform of vocal support for equality. A mandate's a mandate isn't it? I think Brandis should respect this.


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## Liam_snorkel (11/10/13)

Word is that Brandis is gay. You'd think he would at least be sympathetic, but maybe he's just bitter.


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## manticle (11/10/13)

A bit like Pastor Haggard?


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## Liam_snorkel (11/10/13)

ha!


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## Forever Wort (11/10/13)

Trying to take it down is an interesting step, although not unexpected. It is a proactive destructive measure rather than a preventive or conservative one. I think the protests will be intense.

What I mean to say is, it is one thing to be against marriage equality but accepting of others' views. It is another thing to attempt to remove marriage equality from a territory within the federation.


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## Liam_snorkel (11/10/13)

A bit like how civil unions were legal in Qld briefly, before the incoming Premier Fuhrer Newmann scrapped them. Granted, we are the most backwards state.


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## goomboogo (11/10/13)

I thought George Brandis would be keen to attend as many weddings as possible.


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## Liam_snorkel (12/10/13)

A bit embarrassing. 
http://www.afr.com/p/opinion/sycophantic_monarchism_unbecoming_Vg7qNsH1yE16WHp8t7jE8I


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/10/13)

Mmm...Tony's daughters being....um.......er...sultry


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## Forever Wort (12/10/13)

Hooray for feudalism, monarchy, absolute rule and all who represent the good old days. Hooray.


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## manticle (12/10/13)

huzzah.

love old shit.


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## Ducatiboy stu (12/10/13)

I love auld beer


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## Liam_snorkel (13/10/13)

The odds have Shortened.


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## Forever Wort (13/10/13)

Hopefully we see some decent (i.e. existent) opposition alternatives starting ... now.


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## philmud (14/10/13)

This early in a cycle opposition leaders are always quiet, and usually just caretakers ala Brendon Nelson. I suspect the ALPs changes to the leader selection process might see Bill lead them to the next election. I think they'll stay quiet for now, unless they push for a double dissolution election over the Carbon Tax. Otherwise, there's no point landing any heavy blows so far out from the next election. IMO Labor needs to do some soul searching, they hunted with the hounds this last term and took the hares for granted.


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## Liam_snorkel (14/10/13)

Phil Mud said:


> I suspect the ALPs changes to the leader selection process might see Bill lead them to the next election.


Might? Will. The new rules are that the leader can only change if they resign, or if 60% of caucus sign a petition calling for a new vote.


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## OzPaleAle (14/10/13)

Seems even the government has gone pretty quiet. Maybe I have just missed it\haven't been watching the correct channel but haven't heard much for a couple of weeks.


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## philmud (14/10/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Might? Will. The new rules are that the leader can only change if they resign, or if 60% of caucus sign a petition calling for a new vote.


I wasn't clear on the detail, but yeah, will!


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## philmud (14/10/13)

OzPaleAle said:


> Seems even the government has gone pretty quiet. Maybe I have just missed it\haven't been watching the correct channel but haven't heard much for a couple of weeks.


It's no accident.


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/10/13)

Its far from an accident....if you dont mention the boats.....bit like a tree falling in the forest when no-one is there


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## Liam_snorkel (16/10/13)

Taking a dash into state politics here, what do people think of the QLD govt passing the anti-bikie legislation last night, without undergoing any of the usual consultation or legal processes?

If you fit the visual description of "bikie" you can be harassed & detained. They've effectively legislated against people they don't like, disregarding the fact that we already have perfectly adequate criminal laws.



> Peter Callaghan, head of Queensland Law and Justice Institute, slams new bikie laws
> PETER CALLAGHAN SC THE COURIER-MAIL OCTOBER 15, 2013 1:43PM
> GOLD COAST BIKIE LEADER GRANTED BAIL 0:35
> 
> ...


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/peter-callaghan-head-of-queensland-law-and-justice-institute-slams-new-bikie-laws/story-fnihsr9v-1226740346105


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## Forever Wort (16/10/13)

I would prefer more checks and balances in all laws and a more proper legislative process in this particular case, but I do sympathise with law enforcement in regards to identifying and prosecuting organised crime in the "one-percenter" subculture.


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## Liam_snorkel (16/10/13)

I'm glad you mentioned one-percenters. here's some perspective.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/blogs/blunt-instrument/bikies-would-be-ashamed-of-states-casino-push-20131015-2vjbl.html


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## Forever Wort (16/10/13)

I sympathise with Queensland's political predicament. I would never vote for your Premier.

But I do maintain that organised crime and one-percenter culture are _highly correlated _and I sympathise with proactive measures that attempt to make it easier to arrest and prosecute them.


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## Liam_snorkel (16/10/13)

It's also going to cost the QLD govt an absolute bomb defending the legislation in the high court. 

a mate who's a partner at a law firm and who knew him during school said this of Bleijie "he's an absolute fuckin belter and yeah he was a solicitor for a couple of years but probably never saw the inside of a court room". Haha. Our dear Attourney General.


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## Forever Wort (16/10/13)

News flash: apparently Kevin Rudd is a bastard. Zing.


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## philmud (16/10/13)

As I understand it, the law could apply to any group of 3 or more people, not just bikies. Could apply to a case swap! He's a scary fucker you've got running things.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/10/13)

Can you be a bikie if you dont own or ride a bike


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## punkin (17/10/13)

It's a bullying tactic for sure. They know that the clubs will get barristers to defeat the shit discrimination they are passing off as laws, but it will take time and money.

I have no problem with govt targeting criminals, but have no time for people being targeted for what colour shirt they wear or who their friends are.


Targeting people because they are criminals = fine.

Targeting people because they are bikies (one perecent or not) = not the kind of world i want to live in.


----------



## pk.sax (17/10/13)

The British dogs had laws against association back in imperial ruled India. One of them even took it on himself to shoot down a thousand or so gathered in a park for a political protest, battle formation firing squad massacre. Oh, this mentality. Teach the uninitiated such disdain for human rights is just normal, one day, inshallah some delusional bastard will do the rest.


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/10/13)

Does the government realise that the "Bikies" they are targeting are actually very intelligent and extremely sassy when it comes to the law. If you have a look at which ones get arrested and jailed its not the top level, its allways mostly the henchmen. The guys at the top are one step ahead. And not to mention that they can afford good ( if not the best ) legal advice. The gov know they cant make a law to affect an individual ckubs. So they have to make the laws broad which then affects far more groups than just the bikies. 

In the days of old the police would let them fight it out amongst themselves, as long as no civilians got hurt. This is basically political.

"We will stop the bikies..."

" We will stop the boats..." 

They know they cant


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## pcmfisher (17/10/13)

Our idiot ex premier in S.A. tried similar association laws.

It got squashed in the high court.

How does one stand associating with criminal organisations like the Catholic Church?


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## OzPaleAle (17/10/13)

pcmfisher said:


> How does one stand associating with criminal organisations like the Catholic Church?


Hehe that is awesome


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (17/10/13)

Can just imagine police storming a cathederal during mass and the cardinal getting cuffed cause he is the chapter leader....


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## Liam_snorkel (18/10/13)

Here's the legislation. Have a read through, it's not very long. There's a lot of vague language , check out the definition of an association. https://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/bills/54pdf/2013/viclawassdisb13.pdf


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## manticle (18/10/13)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGHr-_bIdQ8


----------



## punkin (18/10/13)

Certainly looks like it could apply to a lot of churches.

Bet there's a stack of people that have been to more than 1 meeting too.


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## manticle (18/10/13)

From my reading you need to have committed one of the declared offences AND be a member of an association. Most of the declared offences are pretty serious.

However there's a couple in there that are a little ambiguous and that definition of association is super vague. Hopefullythe legislation is thrown out for the laughably ill conceived rubbish it is. Pandering to people's fear makes it easier toreduce civil liberties.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (18/10/13)

It will be defeated in the high court, but that will take ages and cost us a lot (the gov will drag it out). In the mean time, that legislation is law.


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## punkin (18/10/13)

As i said, you are a memebr if you go to more than 1 meeting, you get an extra ten years if you are an office holder and there's quite a few offences that would pertain in that list h34r:


Affray, pretty easy to cop that one.


----------



## manticle (18/10/13)

Affray and wounding were two that caught my eye. Plus the serious offences should already be dealt with seriously whether or not you are an akela or secretary of a brewclub.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (19/10/13)

have a read of this:
http://users.tpg.com.au/awbale1/newlaws


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (19/10/13)

Fun times


----------



## browndog (13/11/13)

So Rudd resigned from parliament today. Looks like Bill Glasson will be a shoe in to fill his seat.


----------



## mwd (14/11/13)

Poor Kevin I am sure he will not be short of dollar or two on his pension and millionaire wife. The electricity bill will only be a minor inconvenience.


----------



## mwd (20/11/13)

Stuff the Indonesians just stop the overseas aid to them and use the navy to blow the so called refugee boats out of the water that will stop them pronto. Tony giving Sri Lanka patrol boats has got to be a joke the tax payer has had enough.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (20/11/13)

**** Abbott. He will get what is coming to him


----------



## warra48 (20/11/13)

Vertical single middle digit to the Indos.

They're the nation which killed 5 of our journos back in the 1970s.
They fought us about East Timor.
They killed I don't know how many in the Bali bombings.
They continue to sponsor illegal invaders' boats by sending them towards our shores, without giving a stuff about human rights.
They invaded West Papua and continue to commit crimes against humanity in that region.
They treat us like dirty poor cousins in an attempt to big note themselves locally. Is there an Indo election looming?
They gleefully accept our $$$$ in "foreign aid", which no doubt mostly disappears in their corrupt officials' pockets.
They "spy" on us, just as much, if not more, than they allege we spy on them.

No doubt I'm now on an A..S..I..O.. watch list, but I don't care. The truth will out!


----------



## browndog (20/11/13)

Hopefully the _Honorable_ Scott Driscoll will be spending some time with Gordon Nuttall in the near future.


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## Liam_snorkel (21/11/13)

nice one, Tony.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/spying-scandal-australian-flags-burnt-as-protests-heat-up-in-indonesia-20131121-2xx9k.html


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## TasChris (21/11/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> nice one, Tony.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/spying-scandal-australian-flags-burnt-as-protests-heat-up-in-indonesia-20131121-2xx9k.html



Hmm they are complaining about phone taps in 2009...When Labor was in power.

Australia should not be explaining our intelligence collection to any one especially Indonesia


----------



## Black Devil Dog (21/11/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> nice one, Tony.


Hahaha.....funny joke.......you are joking right?


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/11/13)

TasChris said:


> Hmm they are complaining about phone taps in 2009...When Labor was in power.


I actually got a bit of a chuckle when that surfaced. Labour handing over a ticking bomb.

Fuckem. They both play the same games on each other.


----------



## Black Devil Dog (21/11/13)

A bit of balance required, some people seem to have short selective memories.

Compare the different reactions between when Indonesia were caught spying on Australia and the recent spying "scandal".


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (21/11/13)

Just a case of being busted stealing cookies from the jar. Everyone has had there hand in the jar


----------



## Black Devil Dog (21/11/13)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Just a case of being busted stealing cookies from the jar. Everyone has had there hand in the jar


Too right, just the volume of squealing from those who have a culture of "saving face" that is the difference.


----------



## OzPaleAle (21/11/13)

Bunch of sooks, the real international issue is that my Rolex I got in Bali stopped working after a month, wheres my national outrage.


----------



## goomboogo (21/11/13)

OzPaleAle said:


> Bunch of sooks, the real international issue is that my Rolex I got in Bali stopped working after a month, wheres my national outrage.


Stop the clocks. Oh, that's already happened.


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/11/13)

On the face of it, that joke was second hand.


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## Liam_snorkel (21/11/13)

Too right, just the volume of squealing from those who have a culture of "saving face" that is the difference.

That's exactly it. 

The phone tapping itself wasn't really the issue, it's the way Tone handled it. Instead of contacting Yudhoyono directly behind closed doors and trying to work something out, he got up in our parliament and essentially said "yeah big whoop everyone does it mate" - just in time to make the Indonesian headline news. Now everyone there thinks Australia's new PM is a dick, so regardless of what the president thinks, his hands are tied and he has lost whatever public support there was for his backing of Australia. 
I said "nice one, Tony" because he simultaneously set our relationship with Indo back to the Timor days, and scuttled (excuse the pun) his 'boats' plan. Let's face it, diplomacy isn't his strong point.


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## Black Devil Dog (21/11/13)

Putting the blame onto Abbot for this is such a crock'o'shite, he probably should have rung SBY, maybe he has, I don't know.

Indonesia have made themselves look very hypocritical in all of this, but they have a couple of aces and they're playing them.


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/11/13)

And play they will........considering there upcoming election.

As for Abbott..............


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## Liam_snorkel (21/11/13)

Black Devil Dog said:


> Indonesia have made themselves look very hypocritical in all of this, but they have a couple of aces and they're playing them.


"They" as in the Indo goverment? Or the knuckle heads burning flags and threatening to blow up our embassy?

It was an entirely predictable response and our PM should have been a bit wiser, for his own sake. Nothing much will come of it, he's just made things harder for himself really.


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## manticle (21/11/13)

I thought you were talking to Browndog (whose name is tony)


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## browndog (21/11/13)

manticle said:


> I thought you were talking to Browndog (whose name is tony)



Shhhh.........I'm trying to stay under cover here.


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## Liam_snorkel (21/11/13)

:lol:


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## WarmBeer (22/11/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Australia's new PM is a dick


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## Liam_snorkel (22/11/13)

had to have a chuckle at this. Caption of the week:









for those living under an internet rock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r21CMDyPuGo


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## Dave70 (22/11/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> nice one, Tony.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/spying-scandal-australian-flags-burnt-as-protests-heat-up-in-indonesia-20131121-2xx9k.html


The mindset of talkback radio enthusiasts seems universal.

*Talkback TV and radio in Indonesia have also been ablaze with the story, with a number of callers expressing disgust at Australia "meddling" in Indonesian affairs. There have been calls for Australians to be denied visas on arrival when they arrive at Indonesian airports, including Bali.*


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## Dave70 (22/11/13)

Liam_snorkel said:


> had to have a chuckle at this. Caption of the week:


I would have gone the 'invisible cock' meme personally.


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## Liam_snorkel (22/11/13)

I would have gone the 'invisible cock' personally.


Turn the lights off - ta daa!


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/12/13)

Didn't know Tony Abbott read Mein Kampf

The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these things cannot be reversed.'
Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf.


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## wide eyed and legless (10/7/14)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Clive Palmer is providing a constant source of amusement for me
> 
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/palmer-takes-aim-at-military-aec-20130912-2tnel.html


Well Clive Palmer has done it again, another conspiracy uncovered, Jeff Kennet quote,
He reminds me of a great blimp flying around this world of ours, this country of ours, and every now and then it lets off steam, or, to use a Clive Palmer expression, he just farts," he told Fairfax Radio.
© 2014 AAP


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## wide eyed and legless (19/2/19)

I did notice the 'Big Clive' thread disappeared.


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## scomet (19/2/19)

Censorship is alive and well, as is bigotry….


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## wide eyed and legless (19/2/19)

scomet said:


> Censorship is alive and well, as is bigotry….


I saw your post scomet in the Big Clive thread went back to insert a like and it had gone. Thanks for your concerns, WEAL doesn't mind negative posts against him, as long as folk can express their opinions.


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