# BIAB Weissbier (more banana, light colour)



## Hez (18/7/17)

After having read quite a bit about Weissbier and having tasted a couple of hundreds of them (my favourite is the HB) I decided I want to brew one.

Links:

Light Article:
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/05/08/wheat-beer-recipes-weizen-and-weisse-styles/

Detailed Article:
http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

Podcast:
http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/11/30/german-wheat-beer-with-john-palmer-beersmith-podcast-116/

Aussie Home Brewer Post:
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/bavarian-weissbier-tips.95586/

Recipe:
http://www.beersmith.com/Recipes2/recipe_82.htm

Recipe:
http://www.beersmith.com/Recipes2/recipe_87.htm


Using the instructions in braumagazin.de article and based in other recipes, this is my "proposal":

Batch: 10l

Grain:
2160g Total Grain
1425g Wheat Malt 66%
670g Munich 31%
65g Light Cara Malt 3%

Boil 90':
60' 7.5 Tettnanger or 7.17g Hallertauer or 2.8g Chinhook
30' 7.5 Tettnanger or 7.17g Hallertauer or 2.8g Chinhook

Mash:
55°C protein rest: 5-10 min
63°C maltose rest: 30-45 min
72°C saccharification rest: 30 min

Est. OG: 1.049 SG - FG: 1.012 SG - ABV: 4.85 % ??


Yeast:
W68 White Labs WLP300 or.. Safale WB-06 (dry)???
Pitch 18º

Fermentation Temperature 16-24°C
Secondary Fermentation 3 weeks @ 20°C (I'll look for the warm spot at home)


The intention is to make a Weissbier or Bavarian style wheat beer, on the light-colour and banana-flavour side.

I've calculated the hop equivalency (on alpha) for Tettnanger and Hallertauer hops. The Chinhook is listed because is the only bittering hop I currently have, but for this one I think I will end up buying the Hallertauer... what do you think?
Is that a good proportion of hops? Would you skip the second addition and use more on the first one?

About the yeast, from the recommended ones, those are the ones my supplier has. What do you think about the Safale WB-06 dry yeast? I've read in other forums comments of people saying it's very good and it leaves banana flavour aromas, which is exactly what I'm after!

About the areation or not and the open/closed fermentation... I don't know really if it will change the flavour or how to do it the way the article says... I'm planning on doing the same as always, shake a little the fermenter with the wort inside (closed, of course), add the yeast, close the lid and put the airlock. What do they mean with "do not areate" and "fermentation vessel open" ?? If there's no oxigen the yeast won't work very well... and if the fermenter is open, it will be infected! :S

This is my first ever wheat beer and I want to go to one extreme (banana), next time I want to make the other extreme (clover) and then, try to find the perfect balance for me.

The recipe is not closed! what do you think of it? What would you change?

I plan to brew this one on the 5-6 of August (in Sydney), I think the temperature will be about right (if I keep the bottles into the warm spot of my appartment).


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## Matplat (19/7/17)

If you want Banana, WB-06 won't get you there, definitely get the wlp300

The reason that they say not to aerate, is to cause the yeast to function anaerobically and produce more banana flavoured esters.

Also the reference to 'open fermentation' just means that it is 'open' to atmospheric pressure, you still close the FV but it is not allowed to pressurise.

Definitely use hallertau, all at 60 mins.

Don't bother with munich of caramalt, those are for dunkelweizen. Just use a 50:50 split wheat to pale ale malt. You can also add 75g of dextrose to provide the yeast with the components it needs to produce banana esters.


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## fletcher (19/7/17)

agree with Matplat. don't use wb-06 and definitely hallertau at 60 mins only. hops contribute fairly little to the equation, particularly if you're after extreme yeast flavours/esters. don't bother with crystal malts either. not needed. munich however, can be a nice addition (from experience) however I've only used about 30% with the rest being an equal split of pale and wheat.


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## Hez (19/7/17)

Matplat said:


> If you want Banana, WB-06 won't get you there, definitely get the wlp300
> 
> The reason that they say not to aerate, is to cause the yeast to function anaerobically and produce more banana flavoured esters.
> 
> ...





fletcher said:


> agree with Matplat. don't use wb-06 and definitely hallertau at 60 mins only. hops contribute fairly little to the equation, particularly if you're after extreme yeast flavours/esters. don't bother with crystal malts either. not needed. munich however, can be a nice addition (from experience) however I've only used about 30% with the rest being an equal split of pale and wheat.



Ok, so... 
- 14.35g of Hallertauer at 60'
- Yeast: WLP300
- Do not areate (do not shake the fermenter)
- Open fermentation (meaning fermenter with the lid on + airlock) *

100% agreed, and decided! thank you both!

About the Grain... I was following the instructions from this article: http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/
Quote: 
_"
LIGHT COLORED WEIZEN BEER
Base Malts: _

_Light wheat malt, Pilsner / Vienna, Munich (<30%)_
_Speciality Malts _

_3-10% light Cara malt_
_<2% dark Cara malt_
_<0,5% roasted malt_
_MORE BANANA
Grain Bill >66% wheat malt 
"_

That's what I calculated...
66% wheat malt
30% Munich
4% light Cara malt

I want a light amber colour, not dunkel, not cristal-clear. I want to be extreme with the banana-flavour but I want to achive a nice colour, body, etc.

Matplat suggestion:
50% Wheat malt
50% Pale malt

fletcher suggestion:
35% Wheat malt
35% Pale malt
30% Munich malt

Neither of yours match the braumagazin recommendation... 
why nothing but wheat and pale, matplat?
why so little wheat, fletcher?

What I want is a thick bavarian banana light amber wheat beer! 

About the gas inside the bottle. I've read, and I've notices myself, the weissbier has a lot of gas... I'm going to bottle it in 33cl bottles with a benchcapper and the sugarspoon... do you think it would be a good idea to add a little more sugar or even well closed with the benchcapper they will explode?

* Matplat: On my last brew, a dry irish stout, i forgot to areate... what would do the irish yeast anaerobically (if that's a word) ? I tasted the beer from the hydrometer already fermented when I was bottling and it tasted ok, much like coffee (I used the recipe of a Guiness clone)


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## Droopy Brew (19/7/17)

As above. Wb-06 will never see the inside of one of my fermenters again. 
50:50 Pils wheat
Hallertau at 45-60min for about 15IBU
Minimal aeration to promote ester production from the yeast and dont make a starter if you have a vial of fairly recent yeast. Underpitching is not recommended except if you are chasing big banana from a hefe yeast and then it works well. With only a 10L batch you wont underpitch much anyway, if at all.
Ferment higher to get more banana, lower to get more clove.
For me, a good wiesebier is a balance of clove and banana. Getting too much of either isn't a good thing. I understand you are trying to experiment but I would be inclined to try for a balance first and from there you can adjust esters up or down according to your preference. I find fermenting at 17C for 4 days and then bumping straight to 19C for another 4 days gets that balance.


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## Droopy Brew (19/7/17)

Just saw your reply before mine posted. If you want to darken it a little, I would use Caramunich 2. 50% Wheat, 10% Caramunich 2, 40% pilsner.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (19/7/17)

+1 on WB06 and Danstar Munich wheat.

Weissbier and Saison need a wet yeast, even MJ don't produce an adequate of the former, and I rate their dried yeasts very highly.


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## homebrewnewb (19/7/17)

From Mr White Labs...

Q 3. What are the ideal mash parameters, yeast strains, and fermentation temperatures to accentuate each of the following ester/phenol characters in a hefeweizen: clove, banana, and bubble gum?

A. Hef yeast strains that we have are selected to maximize these characteristics. Anything that encourages yeast growth will increase those 3 flavors. Pitching less and higher fermentation temperature that encourage growth are 2 examples. Aerating less will also encourage growth – another parameter that can increase esters.

I also believe that these esters are created in the first 48 hours, so aim for the correct temp sooner rather than later.


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## warra48 (19/7/17)

I wouldn't use Cara malts at all, based on my experience with recent wheat brews.The stepmash will give you plenty of sweet malt character. Hallertau is fine, but Tettnanger is nice as well to give some nice balancing spice, seeing as these beers only have about 15 or so IBU.


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## MHB (19/7/17)

Personally, W3068 is my go to for hefeweizen.
The notion of under pitching is a bit of a misstatement, pitching at the lower end of the normal range for Ale yeast (0.4-1Mc/mL/oP) does encourage more banana and ester, so closer to 0.4-0.5 Million cells / mill / point of Plato. If you pitch any lower you will start to get other unwanted flavours associated with under pitching or stressed yeast, as well as all the other well known issues with under pitched beer.
A little dextrose (up to 5% of extract) is going to up the banana
Remember that the banana flavour is one of the least stable beer flavours, if you are going to have the beer kicking around for more than a couple of weeks, it will fade pretty dam fast and there goes your balance, so when you are deciding how much banana/clove phenolic you want - when you will be drinking the beer is really important.

The best Hefe I have ever made was 50/50% Weyermann Floor Malted Wheat and Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner, a little darker and a lot fuller in the body, next time I brew this one I want to do a triple decoction - not a summer weight Hefe, but great for spring and autumn, well you could twist my arm... 
Mark


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (19/7/17)

Good tips, would have never thought to put dextose viz Reinheitsgebot being the big thing that the bottles of the commercial examples of these beers still bang on.

I have a few harvested vials of 3068, I'll get onto this soon.


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## MHB (19/7/17)

If you wanted to stay strictly Reinheitsgebot well its a pita but you can create Glucose (Dextrose)
Mark


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## Hez (19/7/17)

wow! too many for answering one by one... thank you all!

About the yeast, I'll use the WLP300 simply because my supplier doesn't have the 3068, I'll ask him anyway...

50% wheat is fixed, the other base barley grain will be pilsner, I'm convinced, but I'm still uncertain about adding some caramunich/light cara... :S you don't agree!

I like Droopy brew's blend idea: Caramunich 2. 50% Wheat, 10% Caramunich 2, 40% pilsner but then warra48 and MHB totally disagree.

About the dextrose, thanks Matplat, 75g for the 10l batch, but when do I add it?

MHB: W3068, Weyermann Floor Malted Wheat and Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner seems too specific. I don't think my supplier will have that.
About your pdf it says:
"The ideal malt ratio for a typical German/Bavarian wheat beer would be 70 % of wheat malt, 27 % pilsner malt and 3 % dark caramel malt to obtain the typical amber colour."

And the decoction instructions don't match the braumagazin ones! Also, when you do a decoction, how much do you remove? if I'm brewing in a bag, do you take only the wort or you use another bag with part of the grain? how much? Nope, I think this is too much for me right now, brewing in my kitchen with limited equipment....


What about the extra-gas in the bottle? Putting a little more sugar? changing sugar for dextrose? or thinner-grain sugar for the same volume?

One thing I'm starting to realize about brewing beer is... lot's of numbers, lot's of norms and conventions, chemistry, "science", written and unwritten laws ... but in the end it's a mess! everyone say different things! :S


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (19/7/17)

MHB said:


> If you wanted to stay strictly Reinheitsgebot well its a pita but you can create Glucose (Dextrose)
> Mark



Not so much I want to (hence the other thread), more that the Reinheitsgebot sort of blinded me to the possibility of using dextrose.

I suppose the next question is, would glucose (or table sugar) work, or will that bring undesirable characteristics.

And is dextrose going to encourage banana because it has a shorter sugar chain and is easily edible by yeast (hence will encourage ester growth by rapid reproduction)?


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## MHB (19/7/17)

Warra and I aren't disagreeing on anything, in fact neither of us is recommending any Carra Malt, that would be included to make an Amber or Dunkel Wheat.
There are two distinct elements to brewing, the science of and the art of brewing, to me the science underpins the art, a bit like architecture, you can draw anything, but the rules of engineering tells you whether or not it will stand up.
Clearly you don't have a lot of experience with hefeweizen, I would strongly recommend you start with something simple like a 50/50 wheat pilsner (spend the extra and go German, it will taste better).
If your supplier cant give you what you need - try someone else. If you have a good local HBS support them, but if you need things they don't stock, get what you need I use Brewman, but depending on where you are there are a few good choices.

If I wanted to do a Dunkel Weiss, I would go to CarraWheat in preference to CaraMunich
Add the dextrose to the kettle near the end of the boil, about 5% of the total weight of extract, for a 25L batch (end of boil) that comes to around 150g.
The mash regime is a very specialised one, it isn't necessary if you are adding dextrose, it is designed to create Glucose (dextrose) which doesn't normally happen in a mash as the Maltase is killed off before the maltose is made.
There are way too many different types of wheat beer and ways of making them for us to cover here, if you want to know way too much try this Brewing Bavarian Weissbier  –  all you ever wanted to know

Starting out keep it simple and enjoy the beer.
Mark


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## MHB (19/7/17)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Not so much I want to (hence the other thread), more that the Reinheitsgebot sort of blinded me to the possibility of using dextrose.
> 
> I suppose the next question is, would glucose (or table sugar) work, or will that bring undesirable characteristics.
> 
> And is dextrose going to encourage banana because it has a shorter sugar chain and is easily edible by yeast (hence will encourage ester growth by rapid reproduction)?



Don't add Sucrose if you are looking for Banana, Glucose is the precursor in the production of Isoamyl acetate by the yeast, Sucrose wont do the job.
Mark


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## Matplat (19/7/17)

Add the dextrose into the boil, that quantity won't make too much difference so it doesn't really matter exactly when.

Look up a priming sugar calculator to calculate exactly how much you need to add to each bottle, you're looking for around 2.5 vols CO2. But you need to get this bit exactly right, you should be working in grams per bottle, not teaspoons per bottle.

I wouldn't bother with a decoction at this stage either, you can make a perfectly decent weizen with a single infusion mash at 67deg.


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## Hez (19/7/17)

MHB said:


> Warra and I aren't disagreeing on anything, in fact neither of us is recommending any Carra Malt, that would be included to make an Amber or Dunkel Wheat.
> There are two distinct elements to brewing, the science of and the art of brewing, to me the science underpins the art, a bit like architecture, you can draw anything, but the rules of engineering tells you whether or not it will stand up.
> Clearly you don't have a lot of experience with hefeweizen, I would strongly recommend you start with something simple like a 50/50 wheat pilsner (spend the extra and go German, it will taste better).
> If your supplier cant give you what you need - try someone else. If you have a good local HBS support them, but if you need things they don't stock, get what you need I use Brewman, but depending on where you are there are a few good choices.
> ...



Yes you're right. This will be my first wheat beer and my 4th beer ever. jejeje
Don't you dare say anything bad against my supplier! My supplier is a really nice guy, he has a lot of variety, great prices and he gives me really good advice. In fact, last time I wasn't sure he had all the things I needed for the Guiness-like stout and it turned out he did! I'll ask him for this particular floor malted posh things  
Thank you for the link, I'll take a look anyway for the very special things 

So for my 10l batch, it would be 50g of dextrose.
I've already read that article, in fact it's the same article I quoted before. Maybe the problem is, I'm multitasking... working while keeping an eye on you here... you're a bad influence! Today I'm leaving the office at 9pm if I keep "working" like this jeje

Convinced: 50% Wheat, 50% Pilsner, nothing else. Thank you.



Matplat said:


> Add the dextrose into the boil, that quantity won't make too much difference so it doesn't really matter exactly when.
> 
> Look up a priming sugar calculator to calculate exactly how much you need to add to each bottle, you're looking for around 2.5 vols CO2. But you need to get this bit exactly right, you should be working in grams per bottle, not teaspoons per bottle.
> 
> I wouldn't bother with a decoction at this stage either, you can make a perfectly decent weizen with a single infusion mash at 67deg.



On my 3 previous beers, I've used the same amount of white-regular-sugar-from-coles with the sugar-spoon. It's not a teaspoon, it's this little plastic thing for measuring the amount of sugar by volume depending on the size of the bottle.
I've seen this priming sugar calculator: https://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/
And for Bavarian Hefe Weizen it says 3.6Vol. Also, the calculator is for gallons, so... does it mean they put all the sugar into the fermenter and then bottle directly from it? or should I calculate the exact amount for each bottle and add it on every bottle?
If I add all the sugar into the fermenter, it will decant/precipitate on the turb... :S and if i shake the ferementer to disolve the sugar I will have to wait until the turb settles again, so the yeast will start eating this new sugar wasting the CO2.

Using this other calculator https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/ I got:
Amount Being Packaged: 0.33l
Volumes of CO2: 3.6Vol.
Temperature of Beer: 20ºC

CO2 in Beer: 0.86 volumes
Table Sugar: 3.6 g
Corn Sugar: 4.0 g
DME: 5.3 g
According to the calculator notes: "Corn sugar and dextrose are the same thing"

So if I use the dextrose as primar, I should put 4g of dextrose per bottle, is that right?


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## Droopy Brew (19/7/17)

If bulk priming (ie adding the sugar to the fermenter prior to bottling) you will need to transfer the beer off the yeast cake into another fermenter or bottling bucket, add the dext and stir to mix (slowly to avoid oxidation) then bottle straight away.

Wiezen is an easy beer to make but hard to master. Keep it simple. 50:50 wheat pils like you have planned. single addition of Hallerau or Tettnang at around 60 minutes for 15 IBU. Your mash profile is good- stick with it and forget the decoction. It is a lot of fluffing around for a small change (matter of opinion).
Ferment at 19C with WLP300 (happy to be corrected but I understand it is the same strain as 3068??) straight from the vial with little aeration.
Ferment will be vigorous and done in 4-5days. You can bottle at day 7 or 8 and dont cold crash- you want that yeast in suspension.

KISS


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## Hez (19/7/17)

Droopy Brew said:


> If bulk priming (ie adding the sugar to the fermenter prior to bottling) you will need to transfer the beer off the yeast cake into another fermenter or bottling bucket, add the dext and stir to mix (slowly to avoid oxidation) then bottle straight away.
> 
> Wiezen is an easy beer to make but hard to master. Keep it simple. 50:50 wheat pils like you have planned. single addition of Hallerau or Tettnang at around 60 minutes for 15 IBU. Your mash profile is good- stick with it and forget the decoction. It is a lot of fluffing around for a small change (matter of opinion).
> Ferment at 19C with WLP300 (happy to be corrected but I understand it is the same strain as 3068??) straight from the vial with little aeration.
> ...


That's exactly what i'll do! I'll put everything together and make the calculations for the water and all...
Thank you very much all of you!


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## Hez (19/7/17)

Here it is the final recipe... any adjustments?

*BIAB Weissbier (generic)*

*Grain:*
2160g Total Grain
1080g Wheat Malt 50% (Weyermann Floor Malted Wheat if available)
1080g Pilsnet Malt 50% (Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner if available)

*Water plan:*
17.48l mash
02.00l sparge
17.75l preboil wort
11.00l postboil wort

*Mash:*
55°C protein rest: 10 min
63°C maltose rest: 45 min
72°C saccharification rest: 30 min

*Boil 90':*
60' 14.35g Hallertauer
10' 50g dextrose <-- is this really necessary with the mash plan I scheduled? or should I make a simple 60' mash at 67º without mashout or anything else and add this? or both things?
10' 1/2 tablet Deltafloc

*Estimated Gravity / ABV: *OG: 1.049 SG - FG: 1.012 SG - ABV: 4.85 % ????

*Yeast: *W68 White Labs WLP300 @ 18ºC

*Primary Fermentation: *7-8 days @ 16-24°C

*Priming sugar (dextrose): *3.9g per 33cl bottle.

*Carbonation: *Rest in the bottle for 2 weeks @ 18-20°C


Priming sugar calculations:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/
Amount Being Packaged: 0.33l
Volumes of CO2: 3.6Vol.
Temperature of Beer: 18ºC

CO2 in Beer: 0.92 volumes
Dextrose: 3.9g

Water calculations:
http://www.biabcalculator.com/
Grain Bill 2160g
Grain Temp 18ºC
Batch Size 10l
Mash Temp 55ºC
Boil Time 90'
Kettle Size 20l
Trub 1l
BoilOff Rate 4,5l/h
Grain Absorption 0,8l/kg of grain

Total Water Needed 19.48l
Strike Water Temp 55ºC
Total Mash Volume 20.92l
PreBoil Wort 17.75l
PostBoil Wort 11.00l


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## warra48 (19/7/17)

Go for simple this time, just mash at 66 or 67C. Do the step mash next time if you want. I've brewed very wheats that way.
I'm brewing a Hefeweizen at the moment and did the 3 step mash, bit I'm retired so have all day. 
3400 gr Wheat 1600 gr Pilsner 18 IBU Tettnang at 60 minutes. WY3068.
That's it. Simple.


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## Hez (19/7/17)

warra48 said:


> Go for simple this time, just mash at 66 or 67C. Do the step mash next time if you want. I've brewed very wheats that way.
> I'm brewing a Hefeweizen at the moment and did the 3 step mash, bit I'm retired so have all day.
> 3400 gr Wheat 1600 gr Pilsner 18 IBU Tettnang at 60 minutes. WY3068.
> That's it. Simple.


How many liters is your batch? 19?
Thanks!


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## warra48 (19/7/17)

25 litres.
My mash efficiency is always over 90% so you need to work to your own system.


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## Hez (19/7/17)

warra48 said:


> 25 litres.


Oh! Nice! Enjoy your brew day!


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## nosco (19/7/17)

Do hefe's have a tendency to go sour/tart? Ive had 2 go sour on me and Ive had a commercial version that was sour as well. It wasnt a berliner in case your wondering.


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## Andy_27 (19/7/17)

I think youre on the money with the latest recipe. Ive got a weizen in the fv at the moment. I used a 50/50 wheat to maris otter grain bill with tetnang at 60 and 30 to 15 IBUs. I did a single infusion mash at 67 and fermented with 3068 at 18.5. Its my first attemlt at a wheat too so I wanted to keep it simple.

It fully fermented out in about 4 days and Ill bottle it after 12 in primary. Im just tossing up on the vols of co2 now...

Good luck with yours!


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## Hez (19/7/17)

Andy_27 said:


> I think youre on the money with the latest recipe. Ive got a weizen in the fv at the moment. I used a 50/50 wheat to maris otter grain bill with tetnang at 60 and 30 to 15 IBUs. I did a single infusion mash at 67 and fermented with 3068 at 18.5. Its my first attemlt at a wheat too so I wanted to keep it simple.
> 
> It fully fermented out in about 4 days and Ill bottle it after 12 in primary. Im just tossing up on the vols of co2 now...
> 
> Good luck with yours!


Great! Keep me updated! By the time you open one I will be about to brew.. jeje

I had an idea for not having to weight the sugar 30 times, what if you buy a sjeringe, cut the front with a dremel (or whatever) and use the plunger to measure the volume of the first dose weighted properly to 3.9g (or the measure you need), then you can make a mark on it and continue using this tool as an "adjustable scoop" instead of having to weigth every single dose for every single bottle..


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## Andy_27 (19/7/17)

Hez said:


> Great! Keep me updated! By the time you open one I will be about to brew.. jeje
> 
> I had an idea for not having to weight the sugar 30 times, what if you buy a sjeringe, cut the front with a dremel (or whatever) and use the plunger to measure the volume of the first dose weighted properly to 3.9g (or the measure you need), then you can make a mark on it and continue using this tool as an "adjustable scoop" instead of having to weigth every single dose for every single bottle..



I always bulk prime in a second FV, its heaps easier.


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## fletcher (19/7/17)

Hez said:


> fletcher suggestion:
> 35% Wheat malt
> 35% Pale malt
> 30% Munich malt
> ...




i'm terribly terribly sorry mate. my percentages were completely off. my wheat beer was:

65% wheat
30% pale
5% munich

not 30. i was a little sleepy this morning and gave the wrong info. sorry!


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## manticle (19/7/17)

nosco said:


> Do hefe's have a tendency to go sour/tart? Ive had 2 go sour on me and Ive had a commercial version that was sour as well. It wasnt a berliner in case your wondering.




No. Wheat beer may have a light tart character but increasing sourness is indicative of something else.


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## Hez (19/7/17)

fletcher said:


> i'm terribly terribly sorry mate. my percentages were completely off. my wheat beer was:
> 
> 65% wheat
> 30% pale
> ...


Thanks mate!


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## nosco (19/7/17)

manticle said:


> No. Wheat beer may have a light tart character but increasing sourness is indicative of something else.



My brewing practices most likely. Cheers manticle. I thought maybe it was a yeast characteristic but wishful thinking. Ive ditched some plastic fermenters since then.


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## Hez (20/7/17)

warra48 said:


> 25 litres.
> My mash efficiency is always over 90% so you need to work to your own system.



I've tried to estimate my efficiency and it's being quite difficult... I've only brewed 3 times. The first one I din't even use the hydrometer, so no info from that, the second one I did a complicated multi-step mash and I've calculated 69% efficiency, the third one I did a simple single infussion at 67º for 60', mashout at 75.5º for 10' and a 2.5l sparge and I got 58% efficiency!!!
This is so bad... 
So for reaching OG 1049 and FG 1012 (average data extracted from other weissbier recipes I found online) having a 65% efficiency I will need to increase the amount of grain from 2160 to 2400g for a final amount of 10l of beer...

The only reason why my OG was close to the recipe estimated value is because in all three batches I misscalculated the boiloff rate and I got less beer in the end than expected... I guess my guiness-like stout turned out being good by luck.

What is the average brewing efficiency in BIAB ?

I will update the recipe setting a "bad-to-neutral" efficiency of 65%...  but again, if I do the different mash (in 3 times) maybe I'm going to get more and my beer will be too strong, or maybe I do it worse and my beer will be watery... :S this thing is difficult!
What I need is more experience... I will have to brew more frequently ;P


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (20/7/17)

I'm getting low efficiency, but I'm not milling well at the moment. If you get the mill setting right, it'll go up.

Mine's about 65-70% or so with BIAB in an urn.


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## Hez (20/7/17)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I'm getting low efficiency, but I'm not milling well at the moment. If you get the mill setting right, it'll go up.
> 
> Mine's about 65-70% or so with BIAB in an urn.



I have my grain milled professionally and I'm way under your efficiency...


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## warra48 (20/7/17)

Best advice I can give you is to put your location in your profile, and see if there is a brewclub near you.
I'm sure one or more members will be more than willing to sit in one one of your brewdays, or have you sit in on one of theirs.
Observing the process takes a lot of the mystique out of it. Brewing really is quite a simple process but, human nature being what it is, we like to complicate things.
You can make perfectly good beer with a simple 60 min one step infusion mash without all the fancy steps. 
I don't BIAB, but use a 3V system which I've dialed in over the last 10 years, and I mill my own grains. Your efficiency will go up once you settle into your system and fine tune it.


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## Hez (20/7/17)

Completed recipe adapted to my shitty efficiency with proper calculations using real data from my supplier:
*
BIAB Weissbier (generic)*

*Grain:*
2600g Total Grain
1300g Wheat Malt 3.4EBC/1.9L
1300g Weyermann Pilsner malt. 3.5EBC/1.9L

*Water plan:*
17.33l mash
02.50l sparge (over the bag)
17.75l preboil wort
11.00l postboil wort

*Mash:*
55°C protein rest: 10 min
63°C maltose rest: 45 min
72°C saccharification rest: 30 min

*Boil 90':*
60' 11.86g Hallertauer Hops pellets, average alpha acid 4.6%
or
60' 17.60g Tettnanger hops pellets average alpha acid 3.1%

10' 50g dextrose
10' 1/2 tablet Deltafloc

*Estimated Gravity / ABV: OG:* 1.049 SG - FG: 1.014 SG - ABV: 4.59%

*Yeast: *W68 White Labs WLP300 @ 18ºC
Hefeweizen Ale Yeast WLP300 72-76% Low 68-72 °F Medium

*Primary Fermentation:* 7-8 days @ 16-24°C

*Priming sugar (dextrose):* 3.9g per 33cl bottle.

*Carbonation:* Rest in the bottle for 2 weeks @ 18-20°C


------------------ Efficiency/Grain calculations:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/allgrain-ogfg/
Wort Collected (pre-boil): 17.7l
Batch Size (after boil): 11l
Efficiency: 65%
Yeast Alcohol Tolerance *: Medium attenuation 72%
Grain
1.3kg Wheat
1.3kg Bohemian Pilsnet
Estimated Pre Boil OG: 1.030
Estimated Original Gravity: 1.049
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.014
Estimated Alcohol By Volume:4.60%


------------------ Water calculations:
http://www.biabcalculator.com/
Grain Bill 2600g
Grain Temp 18ºC
Batch Size 10l
Mash Temp 55ºC
Boil Time 90'
Kettle Size 20l
Trub 1l
BoilOff Rate 4,5l/h
Grain Absorption 0,8l/kg of grain

Total Water Needed 19.83l
Strike Water Temp 55ºC
Total Mash Volume 21.56l
PreBoil Wort 17.75l
PostBoil Wort 11.00l


------------------ IBU calculations:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/
Boil Size: 17.7l
Batch Size: 11l (1l of turb)
Target Original Gravity (OG): 1.049

Hallertauer Hops pellets, average alpha acid 4.6%, 60', 11.86g
Estimated Boil Gravity: 1.030
Total IBU: 15.00

Tettnanger hops pellets average alpha acid 3.1%, 60', 17.60g
Estimated Boil Gravity: 1.030
Total IBU: 15.00


------------------ Priming sugar calculations:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/
Amount Being Packaged: 0.33l
Volumes of CO2: 3.6Vol.
Temperature of Beer: 18ºC

CO2 in Beer: 0.92 volumes
Dextrose: 3.9g


------------------ OG,FG,ABV calculations:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/abv-calculator/
Original Gravity (OG): 1.049
Final Gravity (FG): 1.014
Alcohol By Volume: 4.59%
Apparent Attenuation: 71%
Calories: 151 per 33cl bottle
Original Gravity: 12.15 °P, 1.049
Final Gravity: 3.57 °P, 1.014


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## fletcher (20/7/17)

i won't lie, i feel like you're over-complicating it a lot and trying to make it perfect. it's just my take on it. you're entitled to do what you will but if i were you, i'd just brew it as you have it now and record your numbers and results, and brew it again to fine tune it - however many times you like! at worst, you'll have a nice beer. at best, you'll have an amazing beer.


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## Hez (20/7/17)

fletcher said:


> i won't lie, i feel like you're over-complicating it a lot and trying to make it perfect. it's just my take on it. you're entitled to do what you will but if i were you, i'd just brew it as you have it now and record your numbers and results, and brew it again to fine tune it - however many times you like! at worst, you'll have a nice beer. at best, you'll have an amazing beer.


I'm an engineer, I like complicated things.

To be honest, there was a point when I thought it was very easy, other when I thought it was complicated, and now, after having tried 3 times and studied a little I realize is not that much, once everything is understood it's just a matter of experience... So, you're right what I need is keep on doing it and get the "manual skills"... That's exactly what I'm going to do, now that I'm happy with the numbers, brew it! Take notes and try to improve it next time.

Last time I went crazy preparing it and ended up making very basic mistakes. I hope this time I'm more focused while brewing and I achieve a nice weissbier. Otherwise I will enjoy it as much because I will have made it myself! It's very rewarding!

I'm going on vacation, so I will brew this in a couple of weeks... i'll keep you updated!

Thank you all


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## Adr_0 (7/8/17)

MHB said:


> Warra and I aren't disagreeing on anything, in fact neither of us is recommending any Carra Malt, that would be included to make an Amber or Dunkel Wheat.
> There are two distinct elements to brewing, the science of and the art of brewing, to me the science underpins the art, a bit like architecture, you can draw anything, but the rules of engineering tells you whether or not it will stand up.
> Clearly you don't have a lot of experience with hefeweizen, I would strongly recommend you start with something simple like a 50/50 wheat pilsner (spend the extra and go German, it will taste better).
> If your supplier cant give you what you need - try someone else. If you have a good local HBS support them, but if you need things they don't stock, get what you need I use Brewman, but depending on where you are there are a few good choices.
> ...


Hi Mark,

This is a great link - very good reading and goes well with Brewing With Wheat (Stan H) and German Wheat Beer (Eric W) as great wheat beer resources.

I'm curious about two things:
- 45°C is flagged as where maltase is most active but this is also where ferulic acid is produced. Both enzymes seem to be most active at pH 5.8-6.2. Is the intention of the article that 4VG/clove is also increased or does isoamyl acetate increase much further? Stan H's table on page 85 indicates the beer becomes less estric the longer the mash rests at this temperature.
- Since we're not Reinheitsgebot-bound, it's suggested in the article to add malt extract to the mash as availble maltose for the 45°C maltase rest, which breaks it down into glucose. Couldn't dextrose just be added at the end of the boil?

I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it seems to suggest maltase is active in the high 30's with overlap around 39-41°C, not 45°C:


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## Hez (7/8/17)

Yesterday I finally brew the wheat beer. I tried to be as focused as possible but I made the same mistake again...
I used the manual blender measurement jug to fill the pot, 1l at a time... when I was around 14l, I measured with my ruler to check if I was going ok. The first time I brewed I made a "measurement scale", I mean, I measured the height of the water and calculated that up from 5l, 1l = 0.7cm. Well, at that point my "scale" and the water I added with the blender jug didn't match, and what did the moron (moron=me) do? trust the numbers instead of the reality... so I kept on trusting the numbers for the mash (I did the three step mash), then I did the same for the boiling part and all... everything good. But 15' before the end of the boil I measured again and the numbers didn't match! (of course) So I decided to add 1.5l of boiling water.
I took my measurement again, and it was spot on. So I chilled, transfered it to the fermenter and took a sample for the hydrometer but then I realized from the fermenter measurements I was 1.5l down!!! What a nightmare! I used the hydrometer and the OG was... 1.065 so I did the typical thing everyone say not to do: I added 1.5l of cold water directly from the tap to the blender jug and to the fermenter!
I was worried about infections so I put 1 cap/lid of the prepared sanitizier (1 cap/lid of sanitizer per 500ml of water gives you a little more of 500ml of prepared sanitizer, I used one water bottle cap/lid of the prepared sanitizer not from the "concentrated" sanitizer) into the tap water before adding it to the fermenter. I took another measurement with the hydrometer and I got a final OG of 1050.5
The target OG was 1049 but I didn't want to continue with this game anymore... I guess from 1049 to 1050.5 is not going to be much difference, maybe I should have added 0.5l more but... bah..

Next time I will take my time, I will measure exactly the water and the pot. This can't happen again! What a shame!

This morning I had some good 5cm of foamy bubbles over the beer inside the fermenter, so I didn't kill the yeast with the extra sanitizer... let's see how it goes. I guess it will be ready to bottle this sunday. I'll keep you updated.

What do you think? Will I have a good beer or diarrhoea? :S


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## homebrewnewb (7/8/17)

that last line killed me, killed me i tell you!


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## Hez (7/8/17)

homebrewnewb said:


> that last line killed me, killed me i tell you!


JAJAJA
HAHAHA


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## MHB (7/8/17)

Adr_0
I would be adding glucose to the kettle, the whole point of the rather complex mash regime is to make Glucose within the Reinheitsgebot
I think the thing to remember is that the mashing is done to provide the yeast with food, Banana flavour requires Glucose as a precursor, no glucose no banana, the phenolic flavours/aromas are produced on a different pathway, but still by the yeast during primary fermentation.
Temperature, pitch rate and aeration have a lot more impact on the amount of phenolic produced.
Mark


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## Hez (7/8/17)

MHB said:


> Adr_0
> I would be adding glucose to the kettle, the whole point of the rather complex mash regime is to make Glucose within the Reinheitsgebot
> I think the thing to remember is that the mashing is done to provide the yeast with food, Banana flavour requires Glucose as a precursor, no glucose no banana, the phenolic flavours/aromas are produced on a different pathway, but still by the yeast during primary fermentation.
> Temperature, pitch rate and aeration have a lot more impact on the amount of phenolic produced.
> Mark


glucose or dextrose?
I added the 50g of dextrose into the boil (10', as recommended) will I have banana?


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## MHB (7/8/17)

Some, I would have used a bit more (5-10% of extract), remember there is some naturally occurring Glucose in the grain, so adding some will help, but up to a point more is better.
Mark


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## Adr_0 (7/8/17)

Hez said:


> glucose or dextrose?
> I added the 50g of dextrose into the boil (10', as recommended) will I have banana?


Dextrose = powdered form of glucose. So basically the same thing.

You probably need in the order of a few hundred grams to make an appreciable difference.


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## Adr_0 (7/8/17)

MHB said:


> Adr_0
> I would be adding glucose to the kettle, the whole point of the rather complex mash regime is to make Glucose within the Reinheitsgebot
> I think the thing to remember is that the mashing is done to provide the yeast with food, Banana flavour requires Glucose as a precursor, no glucose no banana, the phenolic flavours/aromas are produced on a different pathway, but still by the yeast during primary fermentation.
> Temperature, pitch rate and aeration have a lot more impact on the amount of phenolic produced.
> Mark


That reflects my experience. I regularly use 3638 - I just like to be different, and I like Paulaner - and so I'm familiar with the phenolic profile. Last time I used a 20min rest at 44°C but didn't really notice a massive amount more clove/vanilla.


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## Hez (7/8/17)

Adr_0 said:


> Dextrose = powdered form of glucose. So basically the same thing.
> 
> You probably need in the order of a few hundred grams to make an appreciable difference.


I did the calculation of the quantity of dextrose from some recommendations I found in this and other posts but I don't have a proper understanding of it... How do you know what is a good amount? Trial and error?


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## Adr_0 (7/8/17)

Hez said:


> I did the calculation of the quantity of dextrose from some recommendations I found in this and other posts but I don't have a proper understanding of it... How do you know what is a good amount? Trial and error?



Don't ask me, I only said 'a few hundred grams' because 50g in a 20-25L batch is around 1% (whether we're talking grain weight or extract weight). 



MHB said:


> Some, I would have used a bit more (5-10% of extract), remember there is some naturally occurring Glucose in the grain, so adding some will help, but up to a point more is better.
> Mark


This gentleman says 5-10% and you and I have every reason to trust his knowledge.


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## Hez (7/8/17)

Adr_0 said:


> Don't ask me, I only said 'a few hundred grams' because 50g in a 20-25L batch is around 1% (whether we're talking grain weight or extract weight).
> 
> 
> This gentleman says 5-10% and you and I have every reason to trust his knowledge.



I just saw his post, sorry MHB, I missed it! jejeje I take seriously your comments, trust me.

My final batch size is 10L, I'm not very ambitious or have room to spare in my tiny appartment... jejeje but how do you calculate that % ? what do you mean by extract weight? I do BIAB, all grain with a terrible efficiency (65-70%) so for these 10L I used 2600g of grain so:
5% of 2600 = 130g
10% of 2600 = 260g
I should have added at least 3 times more? But... if I add that amount of sugar, I would change my OG and thus the recipe:
more sugar -> more OG -> less grain = same OG
more sugar -> more OG -> more water = same OG but less IBU -> more water and hops!

How do you calculate the impact from dextrose into the OG?

The thing is... you can modify the OG at the end of the process (before fermenting) by adding sugar/dextrose/dme/extract/whatever but you can't add hops for bittering after the boil, so if you add more water (than the final amount calculated), you're pretty much screwed

I've seen one guy who did the test of dissolving dextrose in water and measuring with the hydrometer and he got:
28,3495g dextrose in 0.1L water (18ºF) -> Gravity: 1.037

So...

195g (7.5% of 2600g) / 10L = 19.5g/L
28,3495g * 10dL = 283.495g/L

37 * 19.5 / 283.495 = 2.545

If you add the 7.5% of your grain weight of dextrose you would be raising your OG 2.545 points, isn't it? That'd mean a good reduction in grain or increase of water (for that I'd use a proper homebrewing calculator...). Maybe that's why my OG ended up a little on the upper side... I didn't take the dextrose into account.

back to the calculator... :S


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## Adr_0 (7/8/17)

Hez said:


> I just saw his post, sorry MHB, I missed it! jejeje I take seriously your comments, trust me.
> 
> My final batch size is 10L, I'm not very ambitious or have room to spare in my tiny appartment... jejeje but how do you calculate that % ? what do you mean by extract weight? I do BIAB, all grain with a terrible efficiency (65-70%) so for these 10L I used 2600g of grain so:
> 5% of 2600 = 130g
> ...


Ah, my apologies - you're on the money.

2600g is your grain weight
Generally you can expect 75-78% extract - i.e. sugar - from pils/wheat malt which puts you around 2000g if you got 100% brewhouse efficiency, and about 1400g of extract given you have 70% efficiency.

So 50g / 1400g is about 3-4% which is higher than I thought. Certainly better than nothing and won't have an impact on flavour or body at those amounts.

I haven't measured dextrose in water but it should be about 1.044 (44 points per pound per gallon) as I think it's only about 97/98% glucose (and the rest is water). 1.037 is more like a base malt and seems very low.


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## Adr_0 (7/8/17)

I believe Mark's numbers of 5-10% come from the following:

- recommendation to substitute 20% of expected extract with light malt extract rather than grain
- the maltase rest seems to only result in about 25-35% of the light dry extract weight being converted to glucose
- instead of substituting light malt extract, 20% x 25-35% is 5-7% of total extract substituted as dextrose

It's also probably experience talking. Getting more than 10% will affect body which means all the hard work you did in the mash is eroded somewhat.


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## Hez (7/8/17)

Thanks! I think I understand it now. So for next time I would add up to 5% dextrose and re-calculate the grain for the desired OG. I guess this time I will have a little more alcoholic and not-bitter-enough beer than expected. could have been worse! jeje let's see if it tastes like banana, that was the original intention! 

3 weeks! this is the worst part...


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## Adr_0 (7/8/17)

Hez said:


> Thanks! I think I understand it now. So for next time I would add up to 5% dextrose and re-calculate the grain for the desired OG. I guess this time I will have a little more alcoholic and not-bitter-enough beer than expected. could have been worse! jeje let's see if it tastes like banana, that was the original intention!
> 
> 3 weeks! this is the worst part...


Why will it be less bitter?


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## Hez (7/8/17)

Adr_0 said:


> Why will it be less bitter?


Same water, same hops, more OG (due to the dextrose that wasn't accounted in the original recipe) = less IBU

https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/


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## MHB (7/8/17)

Adr_0 said:


> I believe Mark's numbers of 5-10% come from the following:
> 
> - recommendation to substitute 20% of expected extract with light malt extract rather than grain
> - the maltase rest seems to only result in about 25-35% of the light dry extract weight being converted to glucose
> ...


Its a bit of a chicken and egg answer, I based my 5-10% suggestion on the original research papers, I think the guys who made the light malt proposal did the same thing so we all end up in the same place just got there from opposite directions.
The big advantage of using glucose is you can just add it to an isothermal mashed wort, no need for step mashes unless you are setup to do them.
Mark


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## Adr_0 (7/8/17)

Hez said:


> Same water, same hops, more OG (due to the dextrose that wasn't accounted in the original recipe) = less IBU
> 
> https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/



Yeah that's fine - it will have less IBUs but - eg going from 14 to 13 - but this is not a bad thing. I doubt that you'll perceive it. 

Since you added the dextrose with 10min left it should have minimal impact on IBU anyway - maybe half an IBU.

All in all, zero impact.


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## Hez (8/8/17)

Two days into the fermenter and it's bubbling like a rabid dog! jejeje
I have a 15L carboy-style fermenter with a regular airlock with just over 10L of beer and the bubbles are almost reaching the lid. Those little yeasties are devouring the sugar like crazy. They will finish eating all in 4 or 5 days in total... anyway I'll wait until saturday to take the first hydrometer measurement and I guess on sunday (1 week after brew day) I'll get the same reading.

I'm still thinking about the carbonation though. This kind of beer should be carbonated from 3.6 to 4.5vol (according to all the links posted here), but I've read the regular "long neck bottles" are only safe until 3.4vol. Most of the people have told me not to waste time, energy and take risks on that and carbonate with the measure-priming-spoon as usual, but I want to experiment and give it a go, I want them to have a little extra... however I want to be safe, I don't want to spoil my beer and the hours doing it, so what do you think? should I try 3vol? 3.2? 3.4?

For instance:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

Amount Being Packaged: 0.33L
Temperature of Beer: 20º

*Volumes of CO2: 3.2*
CO2 in Beer: 0.86v
Table Sugar: 3.1g
Dextrose / Corn Sugar: 3.4g
DME: 4.5g

I'm using dextrose instead of table sugar this time because someone told me it's better for obtaining the banana flavour.

The bottles I have are exactly identical:
- 4 pines (very very difficult to remove the labels, damm glue)
- Lord Nelson (very easy to remove the labels)
- Feral (difficult to remove the labels, damm glue)
- Kosciuszko (difficult to remove the labels, damm glue)

I have enough of them for having 2 batches at the same time, I'm leaving australia relatively soon so I don't want to collect more... I've also read recomendations of bottles to use for this, but as I just said, I don't want to collect more.


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## homebrewnewb (8/8/17)

you might want to check out champagne or sparkling bottles, or stainless bottles, there are higher rated ones out there if you want higher carb pressures.


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## Adr_0 (8/8/17)

The Weihenstephaner bottles are rated slightly higher I believe - or there's champagne bottles. Grab a carton from Dan Murphy's. Or PET. I buy cheap champagne in six-packs and use these bottles.


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## Andy_27 (8/8/17)

Hez said:


> Two days into the fermenter and it's bubbling like a rabid dog! jejeje
> I have a 15L carboy-style fermenter with a regular airlock with just over 10L of beer and the bubbles are almost reaching the lid. Those little yeasties are devouring the sugar like crazy. They will finish eating all in 4 or 5 days in total... anyway I'll wait until saturday to take the first hydrometer measurement and I guess on sunday (1 week after brew day) I'll get the same reading.
> 
> I'm still thinking about the carbonation though. This kind of beer should be carbonated from 3.6 to 4.5vol (according to all the links posted here), but I've read the regular "long neck bottles" are only safe until 3.4vol. Most of the people have told me not to waste time, energy and take risks on that and carbonate with the measure-priming-spoon as usual, but I want to experiment and give it a go, I want them to have a little extra... however I want to be safe, I don't want to spoil my beer and the hours doing it, so what do you think? should I try 3vol? 3.2? 3.4?
> ...



I agree! 4 Pines labels are a pain in the arse! Feral labels I find come off with a soak in hot water and sodium perc. 

As for carb rates, I just opened a weiss I made and its carbed to 3.0 vols in PET bottles. It is on the lower end of carbing for the style but its not anything bad. I was a bit hesitant to go much more as I didnt know what the bottles could take.


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## TheWiggman (8/8/17)

Hez said:


> ... and the OG was... 1.065 so I did the typical thing everyone say not to do: I added 1.5l of cold water directly from the tap to the blender jug and to the fermenter!



Not an issue, every kit brewer does it with the can and sugar and they largely manage to knock out infection-free beer.


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (9/8/17)

Hez said:


> Two days into the fermenter and it's bubbling like a rabid dog! jejeje
> I have a 15L carboy-style fermenter with a regular airlock with just over 10L of beer and the bubbles are almost reaching the lid. Those little yeasties are devouring the sugar like crazy. They will finish eating all in 4 or 5 days in total... anyway I'll wait until saturday to take the first hydrometer measurement and I guess on sunday (1 week after brew day) I'll get the same reading.
> 
> I'm still thinking about the carbonation though. This kind of beer should be carbonated from 3.6 to 4.5vol (according to all the links posted here), but I've read the regular "long neck bottles" are only safe until 3.4vol. Most of the people have told me not to waste time, energy and take risks on that and carbonate with the measure-priming-spoon as usual, but I want to experiment and give it a go, I want them to have a little extra... however I want to be safe, I don't want to spoil my beer and the hours doing it, so what do you think? should I try 3vol? 3.2? 3.4?
> ...



Bulk prime if you can, it is much more accurate, 3 vols will be plenty but make absolutely sure fermentation is complete.


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## Hez (9/8/17)

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> Bulk prime if you can, it is much more accurate, 3 vols will be plenty but make absolutely sure fermentation is complete.


Thanks. I Will do 3!
The problem is i only have one container, but you don't know my secret weapon for priming... Jejeje I'll post a picture when I do it


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## Adr_0 (11/8/17)

Well, I'm convinced. I went with essentially 50:50 barley/wheat, and had 6% dextrose on top of this and and 6% light ME in the mash with a 25min rest at 44-45°C. 3638 was the yeast, which in my experience has been reasonably balanced with a bit more going on in the phenolics.

Pitched at 16.5°C, naturally rising to 17.5, 18.5, 19.5 each 24hrs (freezer temperature, not wort) and at 1.020 (62% attenuation) is throwing a massive amount of banana. I would call the temperatures for this yeast on the low-moderate side - certainly not up in the 20's which throws more strawberry/bubblegum - so hopefully the phenolics are still there. But has definitely done the job.


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## Hez (11/8/17)

Adr_0 said:


> Well, I'm convinced. I went with essentially 50:50 barley/wheat, and had 6% dextrose on top of this and and 6% light ME in the mash with a 25min rest at 44-45°C. 3638 was the yeast, which in my experience has been reasonably balanced with a bit more going on in the phenolics.
> 
> Pitched at 16.5°C, naturally rising to 17.5, 18.5, 19.5 each 24hrs (freezer temperature, not wort) and at 1.020 (62% attenuation) is throwing a massive amount of banana. I would call the temperatures for this yeast on the low-moderate side - certainly not up in the 20's which throws more strawberry/bubblegum - so hopefully the phenolics are still there. But has definitely done the job.


Sounds great! Well done, mate.
Are you kegging or using bottles?
Keep us posted!

I will certainly bottle mine this Sunday, so 16 days more...

For my next one I plan to make a Witbier /Blanche. I will put a similar post to this one for it. They're having a lot of views.. (the 3 I've posted so far) so I guess you like them, don't you?


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## homebrewnewb (11/8/17)

Hez said:


> For my next one I plan to make a Witbier /Blanche. I will put a similar post to this one for it. They're having a lot of views.. (the 3 I've posted so far) so I guess you like them, don't you?



I am eyeballing one too!
for your consideration
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/i-need-some-advice-wb-06.62622/
and 
https://byo.com/bock/item/1647-witbier-style-profile

Need to get another lager done first though.


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## Adr_0 (11/8/17)

Hez said:


> Sounds great! Well done, mate.
> Are you kegging or using bottles?
> Keep us posted!
> 
> ...


Going to try to speise a small amount in a 5L keg, and also speise some champagne bottles. Going to use Coopers lager LME with some Halletau MF but need to decide on the yeast - may actually use 34/70, we'll see. Keen to hear what Mark thinks?


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## Hez (11/8/17)

homebrewnewb said:


> I am eyeballing one too!
> for your consideration
> https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/i-need-some-advice-wb-06.62622/
> and
> ...



I guess it's the wheat season... jejeje

Yes, I'm waiting for this one too, that's why I haven't posted about the witbier yet, but oh! I've been studying quite a bit! I had already read the second link but I haven't read the first one yet, I'll do.
Thank you very much for your advice. I'll put the post next week, I have it almost ready.



Adr_0 said:


> Going to try to speise a small amount in a 5L keg, and also speise some champagne bottles. Going to use Coopers lager LME with some Halletau MF but need to decide on the yeast - may actually use 34/70, we'll see. Keen to hear what Mark thinks?



mmmm i'm going to need a translation for this... I get you're going to keg a part of it and bottle in champagne bottles the rest, but you lost me in the second part... Coopers Lager LME, Halletau MF 34/70 yeast? I still have lots to learn...


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## homebrewnewb (11/8/17)

Allow me
LME - light malt extract
Halletau MF - hallertau mittelfrueh I assume?
34/70 - Saflager's 34/70 Dry yeast.
Adr_0 you might need to give that wb 06 link a read too.


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## Hez (11/8/17)

homebrewnewb said:


> Allow me
> LME - light malt extract
> Halletau MF - hallertau mittelfrueh I assume?
> 34/70 - Saflager's 34/70 Dry yeast.
> Adr_0 you might need to give that wb 06 link a read too.


Yes I think I do... Thanks
But what s the relation of those with the kegging adr was talking about?


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## Adr_0 (11/8/17)

Hez said:


> I guess it's the wheat season... jejeje
> 
> Yes, I'm waiting for this one too, that's why I haven't posted about the witbier yet, but oh! I've been studying quite a bit! I had already read the second link but I haven't read the first one yet, I'll do.
> Thank you very much for your advice. I'll put the post next week, I have it almost ready.
> ...


It's basically using fermenting wort to carbonate. Faster and fresher as the wort has been hopped and doesn't affect the alcohol content of the beer.

Another way to speed up carbonation is to add dextrose to a bottling bucket/fermenter and leave it for a few hours. Have to make a judgement call whether there is enough yeast to kick off again. A good sign that you have left it long enough is if there is a lot of dissolved CO2 coming out of solution when filling bottles.


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## Hez (11/8/17)

Adr_0 said:


> It's basically using fermenting wort to carbonate. Faster and fresher as the wort has been hopped and doesn't affect the alcohol content of the beer.
> 
> Another way to speed up carbonation is to add dextrose to a bottling bucket/fermenter and leave it for a few hours. Have to make a judgement call whether there is enough yeast to kick off again. A good sign that you have left it long enough is if there is a lot of dissolved CO2 coming out of solution when filling bottles.


Oh! Yes! Now I see... I had read about it and totally forgot. Thanks for the explanation jejeje
That's very pro..


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## MHB (11/8/17)

Adr_0 said:


> It's basically using fermenting wort to carbonate. Faster and fresher as the wort has been hopped and doesn't affect the alcohol content of the beer.
> 
> Another way to speed up carbonation is to add dextrose to a bottling bucket/fermenter and leave it for a few hours. Have to make a judgement call whether there is enough yeast to kick off again. A good sign that you have left it long enough is if there is a lot of dissolved CO2 coming out of solution when filling bottles.



Sorry
If it ferments it makes Alcohol *and* CO2, 1 molecule glucose makes 2 molecules of each.
Not trying to be contrary but
The longer it sits in the fermenter, the closer it gets to equilibration, so it will lose CO2 down to the natural level for any given temperature.
I would recommend a bit more reading on the subject.
Mark


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## Adr_0 (11/8/17)

MHB said:


> Sorry
> If it ferments it makes Alcohol *and* CO2, 1 molecule glucose makes 2 molecules of each.
> Not trying to be contrary but
> The longer it sits in the fermenter, the closer it gets to equilibration, so it will lose CO2 down to the natural level for any given temperature.
> ...


The first point is talking about speise. If you have 23L of 1050 wort and add 2L of 1050 wort does the final alcohol % of the beer change? What happens if you have 23L of 1050 wort and add 300mL of concentrated dextrose solution, does the alcohol % change? So for using speise I would argue the alcohol % doesn't change. And yes I appreciate that when it's forming a krausen it would have dropped a few points.

The second point is talking about using dextrose in the traditional bulk priming method, but waiting a few hours (2-4) allows some mixing and the yeast to start chewing on the dextrose. For wheat beer carbonation levels I'm not sure that the attenuation over the first 2-4 hrs will be appreciable vs the 100+hrs of fermenting the rest of the way in the bottle.


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## MHB (11/8/17)

Fair enough, it was more the relationship between it being hoped made it faster and fresher.
To a large extent Sugar is Sugar is Sugar and late in the ferment it shouldn't make much if any difference to the flavour/freshness of the beer.
Most important being to understand how much to add for a given level of carbonation, anyone interested in speising should read Braukaiser, he covers it well.
Mark


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## Hez (13/8/17)

I've finally bottled the weissbier.
Yesterday I had 1.010 and today exactly the same, so:
OG 1.050
FG 1.010
ABV 5.25%
152.2kcal per 33cl bottle
I was low on water, so it's going to be a little strong for this kind of beer but still on the range.

I used dextrose for priming and finally did 3.0vol (3.1g per 33cl bottle) with my custom-sugar-priming-measurement-scoop.

It has a very strong banana smell! I had the beer from the hydrometer and it was ok, lots of banana going in and going out from the mouth to the nose. Full banana.

The colour is very very clear, I regret not having used some Munich, I'll definitely do it next time, I love that orange hue in weissbier.

I kept an eye on the temp while fermenting and it's been around 18° all the time with peaks of 16° and 20°

Now wait another 2 weeks...  this is the worst part of making beer. Poor whiskey makers.


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## Hez (16/8/17)

About the adjustable-priming-sugar-scoop... 5ml of my particular dextrose is exactly 3.1g which is the needed quantity of it for having 3.0vol of CO2 in a 33cl bottle.
Of course it also depends 9n the amount of yeast still on the beer, but... Close enough ! Jeje


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## Hez (28/8/17)

Yesterday I finally open one of these after a proper conditioning. I had open a couple of them before and they were ok but... bland and... a little sour! is that normal? Yesterday's was way better. It had more body and taste. I also tried to pour it german-style to get more head and recover some of the "turb" from the bottom of the bottle.







Nevertheless... I miss the orange color and a little of the "subtle malty taste" of the original weissbier, next time I think I will go with:

OPTION 1:
- 1300g wheat malt (60%)
- 640g pilsner (~40%)
- 220g light cara munich (~10%)

*SRM: *6.92
*EBC: *13.63

OPTION 2:
- 1420g light wheat malt (65%)
- 530g light munich (base) (25%)
- 210g light cara munich (10%)

*SRM: *7.62
*EBC: *15.02

Still on the range (light coloured weissbier should be < 20EBC) but I think it would have that color and taste this one is missing.



To make it more balanced (according to the barumagazine article) I will change the mash schedule too:

35ºC Mash in temp.
45°C rest: 15 min
55°C protein rest: 5 min
63°C maltose rest: 45 min
72°C saccharification rest: 30 min
72ºC sparge

I will take into account the dextrose added into the boil and ditch the 1/2 tablet of deltafloc. I want it to be even more cloudy!


About the carbonation I did it with dextrose instead of table sugar and up to 3vol. CO2 and I can tell the bottles I used weren't even near their maximum capacity. Next time I will do at least 3.4vol and I will use table sugar instead, I think it's easier and there isn't much difference.


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (29/8/17)

Here's the recipe I just did, bottled (primed with DME for 3.5 vols CO2) on Sunday and it tasted pretty good already although it does not have that orange hue, probably munich malt instead of vienna would help with that.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/443258/cheapo-wheat

I don't think you need a crystal malt in a wheat beer as the wheat proteins support head retention very well and the mash schedule creates enough unfermentable sugars for the taste. It wont be opened until October so it will be fully developed by then.


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## Adr_0 (29/8/17)

I would think that if one bottle had a great taste and full(ish) body, and this one has a lot of flavour stripped out and is sour then this bottle is infected.

I'm against - like most of the crowd - putting crystal in a wheat beer because you really don't want any sweetness, which will leap out of the beer with such little hopping. A little dark wheat (Weyermann) or Munich to an EBC of about 12-15 will do the job with the very slightest touch of chocolate. An example would be 50% pils (Bohemian), 30% pale wheat, 20% dark wheat and a sprinkling of Carafa sp 1.


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## MHB (29/8/17)

Don't forget there is CaraWheat and Roast / Chocolate Wheat, CarraWheat is great for adding a touch of colour and keeping within the wheat flavor spectrum.
Mark


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## Lionman (29/8/17)

Had a nice weizenbier on the weekend at Homestead Brewery in the Swan Valley. Apparently award winning? I enjoyed it.


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## Hez (30/8/17)

After having tasted the more-banana version, I've realized the good ones have less banana jejeje so, now I want to do a balanced one (again I should have listened to you from the beginning).

The water, the hops, the mash schedule, the carbonation, the yeast... I have everything decided and ready (I know how to calculate the proportions if I change the quantity of grain, no problem), the only missing thing is deciding on the grain!

The two options I put in my previous post it was me reading the braumagazine article: http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/
Why do you say crystal? I put light cara munich, not crystal, is it the same? I didn't know...

From the article:
_"LIGHT COLORED WEIZEN BEER 
OG: 1.046 - 1.057
IBU: 9-14
Color: <20 EBC 
Base Malts: Light wheat malt, Pilsner / Vienna, Munich (<30%)
Speciality Malts: 3-10% light Cara malt, <2% dark Cara malt, <0,5% roasted malt"_

This is the color I want (and with the color comes the flavour too):
https://schneider-weisse.de/en/node/12

I've looked around for a Schneider-Weisse Tap 7 clone and I've found every suposed clone has a different recipe. Some use Halletauer, others tettnanger, others saaz, some pilsner, others raw barley, cara munich, melanoiden, roasted...

Lets see some of them:

Version 1: http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=41007&st=15
48.3 9.00 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 2
21.5 4.00 lbs. Dingeman's Pilsener Belgium 1.037 2
21.5 4.00 lbs. Weyermann Lt. Munich Malt Germany 1.038 6
5.4 1.00 lbs. Caramel Wheat Malt Germany 1.036 46
2.7 0.50 lbs. Weyermann Melanoidin Malt Germany 1.037 27
0.7 0.13 lbs. Chocolate Wheat Germany 1.033 400

Version 2: http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/the-beer-board/(review)-schneider-weisse-tap-7/
2.5kg of wheat
1.65kg of barley
50g of roasted malt

Version 3: http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/560150/schneider-weisse-tap-7-clon
6 lbs 9.82 oz Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1
4 lbs 6.55 oz Barley, Raw (2.0 SRM) Grain 2
1 lbs 1.64 oz Caramel Wheat Malt (46.0 SRM) Grain 3

Version 4: https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/schneider-weisse-tap-7-clone
6.0 lb White Wheat Rahr Mash 41 2 °L
4.5 lb Pilsner Rahr Mash 37 1 °L
0.19 lb CARAFA® III Weyermann® Mash 32 525 °L

Version 5: (lost the link, sorry)
Wheat Malt-- 8 lbs 
German Munich-- 6 lbs 
Crystal 120L-- 12 OZ. 
Chocolate 350L-- 4 OZ. 

Version 6: https://beerrecipes.org/Recipe/9117/german-schneider-tap-5-clone.html (this is for tap 5, the bock, but the idea is the similar)
8 lbs 13.1 oz - Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) (Grain)
7 lbs 11.5 oz - Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM) (Grain)
2 lbs 3.3 oz - Melanoidin (Weyermann) (30.0 SRM) (Grain)

Versions 7 and 8: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29252
48.2 4.27 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 82.23 4
1.0 0.09 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special III Germany 64.92 1300
50.8 4.50 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 82.23 4

Wheat Malt 3.5 EBC 6 lbs. 12.1 oz 3070 grams 55.1% 
Lager Malt 2.5 EBC 5 lbs. 5.9 oz 2440 grams 43.8% 
Carafa Special III 1200 EBC 0 lbs. 2.1 oz 60 grams 1.1%


:S:S:S:S:S

The only grain I have decided is:

60% light wheat malt

for around 12-15EBC (https://www.brewersfriend.com/srm-calculator/) what do I use for the other 40% ??? pilsner or munich (base) with something dark? what something dark? cara munich, melanoiden, roasted wheat, carafa, carawheat?

I found this article about the grain, I think it's worth a read: https://byo.com/mead/item/710-grain-on-the-brain But still... now I have more doubts! :S


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## Adr_0 (30/8/17)

Geez, that's a lot of recipes. Caramunich is basically a crystal malt though is not a standard off the shelf crystal. Still, IMO it will impart too much sweetness.

The national homebrew club grain bill is the closest to Schneider Weisse as I understand. Quoting from Stan Heironymous' wheat book as well, which says they use only a touch of chocolate. So an example recipe might be (targetting 1.050-1.052 OG):
3kg Weyermann pale wheat
2kg Weyermann Bohemian pils
60g Weyermann chocolate wheat

On second thoughts, 12-15EBC may be a touch light and I think around 17-18EBC is what you want to target which the above should reflect.

I've suggested Bohemian pils to give some grainy maltiness that you may be missing, but you can 'just' use premium pils if you wish.

Another example would be the same as above but balancing the colour over cara-wheat and choc wheat:
3kg Weyermann pale wheat
2kg Weyermann Bohemian pils
150g Weyermann cara-wheat
40g Weyermann chocolate wheat


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## MHB (30/8/17)

Remember that the Banana will fade fairly quickly, it is one of the least stable beer flavours known.
Choice of yeast will have a big impact on the balance, for instance in the same wort the Weihenstephan throws a lot more banana than does the Schneider.
You are still very much a learner - so keep it simple, make a basic wheat based wort and play around with yeast, pitching rates, fermentation temperatures... until you get the beer you want.
Mark


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## Adr_0 (30/8/17)

Yeah I was going to say, your banana will fade so consider this. If you're going to drink every bottle within the first month then perhaps knock the banana back, but past that it will come into balance and be quite nice past that.


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## Hez (30/8/17)

MHB said:


> Remember that the Banana will fade fairly quickly, it is one of the least stable beer flavours known.
> Choice of yeast will have a big impact on the balance, for instance in the same wort the Weihenstephan throws a lot more banana than does the Schneider.
> You are still very much a learner - so keep it simple, make a basic wheat based wort and play around with yeast, pitching rates, fermentation temperatures... until you get the beer you want.
> Mark





Adr_0 said:


> Yeah I was going to say, your banana will fade so consider this. If you're going to drink every bottle within the first month then perhaps knock the banana back, but past that it will come into balance and be quite nice past that.



Yes, I'm a learner and always will!
From the ~30 bottles I made there must be like 10 left or so... so no chance of loosing the banana  Until my belgian witbier is ready to drink I will have to buy some more jejeje

My supplier only has wheat malt, roasted wheat or torrified wheat, no caramel wheat 
But chocolate wheat = roasted wheat, isn't it?
I think I got it!

For 10L batch (+1L trub)
65% efficiency

1650g wheat malt (~60%)
1100g pilsner (~40%)
32g roasted wheat (~1%)
2782g total

SRM: 9.13
EBC:17.99

Estimated Pre Boil OG: 1.032
Estimated Original Gravity: 1.052
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.015
Estimated Alcohol By Volume: 4.92%
(it will be a little more alcoholic for sure, last time my FG was 1.010)

Tettnanger 1.7% alpha 32.63g (I like it, and still have left enough for another batch)
15IBU

Hefeweizen Ale Yeast WLP300 72-76% Low 68-72 °F Medium

How does it sound? I think is within the ranges of the style according to the famous braumagazin article.

My witbier/blanche/belgian style wheat beer will be ready in 2 weeks and a half so I'll brew this one then.

About the temperatures, Mark, unfortunately it's not under my control. Just the pitching temp (chilling the wort). I don't have any way of controling it after that. All I can do is moving the fermenter inside my appartment to a colder/warmer part. I don't see how could I insulate the fermenter and keep a constant temperature with esky blocks or something like that...
When I go back home I'm sure I'm going to buy a small fridge and put a temp controler, but not in here... I simply don't have the time and space and no way I will be able to bring any of this stuff back home (Madrid, Spain), it will be cheaper to buy it again than shipping it. As you said before, I'm learning here and while I learn I try to make drinkable beer!


OFFTOPIC:
By the way, if you want to try the most popular beer from Madrid, Aldi is selling it right now in Sydney. 9.9$ the 6 pack. It's called: "Mahou", it's something like pilsner, not very hoppy and a little more malty. I believe they put some corn into it, don't know for sure and don't know why, that's what I've heard.
It's served more or less Czech style with a layer of thick foam on top in 20cl glasses ("cañas"). I was a waiter when I was studying in uni and I went to a beer serving contest. You are suposed to:
- Open the tap completely and discard the remaining foam from the previous one
- Put the glass under the stream of fresh beer at exactly 45º with the end of the tap very close to the bottom without touching it and lowering the glass as the beer raises to avoid the tap to be under the beer level at any time.
- When the glass is almost full, close the tap and put the glass under it vertically
- Open half way the tap to fill with thick foam the remaining part of the glass
You know it's ok when you drink the beer, every sip must produce a ring of foam into the empty part of the glass.
You start with 100 point and they remove point for every degree, mm, etc. off, it's crazy. I thought I was very good, and turned out I was below average... :S





(the good one is the one on the right)

The idea of the "cañas" and why they are so small is that you don't want your beer to become warm and/or flat, so you have to go to the bar where the waiter is fast, one "caña" last seconds! Lazy waiter = shitty "cañas".
With every caña you get a really small plate with something to eat for free, that's a "tapa". When you go to have some "cañas" with your friends you usually end up having 10-15 of them (2-3L) before being totally full of beer and food. And they cost 1.2-1.5€ each (1€=1.49$AUD) Oh! I really miss it!
If you don't care or it's not summer you can also ask for a "doble" (33cl cup) or a "jarra" (0.5L mug) and if you are in a dancing-pub, concert or a party you ask for a "tercio" (33cl bottle) or a "mini" which is a plastic glass around 0.75L, not very elegant, but it gets the job done


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## Droopy Brew (30/8/17)

MAte you have a lot of recipes there and I cant help but think you will confuse yourself.

Do yourself a favour and brew this from our very own Les the weizguy: https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/recipedb-schneider-weisse-style.20713/

I have brewed it multiple times and it is bloody amazing. It is fairly simple. If you can do the suggeste temp steps it is better but if not then a 66C mash will still produce an excellent beer.

Ferment with WLP3068.

Pitch one smack pack direct- no need for a starter unless it is an old (over 3 months) pack. Ferment at 17C for 3 days- it will go nuts and smell very clovey. Then ramp to 20C for the next 4 days and the banana will really kick in.
Should be done in 7 days- bottle after 9. This ferment schedule will give you a really nice balance and clove and banana.

This reminds me- I must be due to brew this again.

EDIT- Just noticed you dont have temp control. In that case try your best to keep it around 18C. If it is cooler it will tend toward clove and warmer toward banana.


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