# Castle Hill Brewing Competition



## Thommo (23/9/06)

Castle Hill and Hills District Agricultural Society
Home Brewing Championship 2007
Conducted by the Hills Brewers Guild

Entry Form Here:

The 2007 Home Brewing Championship will be judged over the 4th and 5th of November 2006. The competition has been registered with the Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP) and will follow the competition, class and style guidelines as laid down by the BJCP. Further information on the BJCP can be found Here

Entries close at 4pm Saturday, October 21, 2006

This years competition will consist of two sections:

Open Section: Beers entered in this section can be made by any method including kit, extract, partial and full mash methods.

Commercial Kit Beers: These beers are those based on commercially available kits. Enhancements such as brewing sugar mixtures, malts and additional hops are permitted. Any form of yeast may be used. However extract, partial and full mash beers are excluded from this category. The judges will exclude any entry which in their opinion does not meet these criteria. Beers made from kits can of course be entered into any of the appropriate open categories. 

The two categories for commercial kit beers
K1- Australian Lager
K2- Australian Dark/Old Ale

The Hills Brewers recognises the assistance provided by ANWABS in the formulation of these specifications.

Response from Sponsors has been very encouraging. Please check the link for full details.

If you have any questions not answered by the links you can either send a PM or post your querie here.

Anyone interested in offering their time assiting with judging please feel free to send me a PM.

Happy Brewing.

Brett

Edit:
Fixed Links


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## Thommo (25/9/06)

Just bumping this for Morning Tea Traffic.


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## crozdog (25/9/06)

Thommo,

great to see this event growing & getting quality sponsors. Good work by all concerned.

I'm considering entering a couple of brews into this event as my 1st competition. I'm curious however as to why the judging is being performed in November this year, but the show isn't on till March.

beers

crozdog


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## Samwise Gamgee (25/9/06)

crozdog,

I believe this is running in conjunction with the Castle Hill and Hills District Agricultural Society but not with the Castle Hill Show itself.

There are entries even coming over from Canada and the US for this comp so hopefully it will be a biggen.

I've got to fire up my fermenters very shortly!


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## eric8 (25/9/06)

Sounds like a great comp, with heaps of great prizes. I was thinking of entering, but I only do k+k. Not sure if they would stand up to the competition, although my Spicy Ghost Draught is tasting very nice indeed, at least i think so.


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## Samwise Gamgee (25/9/06)

Eric,

there is a section dedicated to Commercial K & K brewed beers.

The overall comp is open to all types of brewing from K&K to All Grain.


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## Thommo (25/9/06)

G'day Crozdog,

The judging for the competition was brought forward to November to allow people who take advantage of the ambient winter temps to brew lagers, to enter these in the competition whilst they are still at their most "competetive". We also thought that by aligning our competition to be closer to the other comps we might get more people sending their beers that did well in other comps. With the great response we've had from sponsors for this event this idea may have the desired result. Only time will tell.

We look forward to receiving your entries.

Cheers,
Thommo


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## Thommo (25/9/06)

Eric,

As Sam mentioned there is a dedicated section open only to brewers who use commercial kits. A more detailed outline of the requirements are found in the entry form located at the top of the page. You are also able to compete in any open category with a Commercially produced kit beer.

Don't be afraid of your beer not being up to competition standards. If you look at the results for the Bathurst Show you will notice that quite a few Kit beers performed very well in some of the sections. Don't judge yourself out of the chance to win some of the great prizes on offer from our sponsors.

Although it's nice to win prizes and acclaim from your fellow brewers, one of the often overlooked advantages of competition is the invaluable feedback you can receive from judges on ways to improve your beer. Some people enter sub-standard beers into competitions simply for the helpful feedback and comments.

Cheers,
Thommo


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## Guest Lurker (25/9/06)

The requirement for two bottles may cut down on interstate entries, but I might enter a beer for NZ, posted from WA. If posting beer from outside of NSW, which is the preferred agent to receive them?


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## eric8 (25/9/06)

Thommo said:


> Eric,
> 
> As Sam mentioned there is a dedicated section open only to brewers who use commercial kits. A more detailed outline of the requirements are found in the entry form located at the top of the page. You are also able to compete in any open category with a Commercially produced kit beer.
> 
> ...



Well I guess I may as well give it a go then.
This will only leave me with 7 bottles though, hhmmm, might have to make some more I guess  .
What category do I enter my draught into then Thommo? And is it $5 per bottle or just a fiver for the entry?
Cheers
Eric h34r:


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## Thommo (25/9/06)

Eric,

The entry fee is $5 for the first entry, $5 for the second entry, and $3 for each entry thereafter. An entry is the style of beer, ie. 2 bottles. eg, If I were to enter five beers in total, amount paid would be $5 + $5 + $3 + $3 + $3 = $19.

I haven't tried the Cascade spicy Draught myself, but you can check the BJCP style guidelines Here. It may fit into one of these categories for the open section.

Of the two Exclusive Kit sections, I'd enter it into the K1 - Australian Lager category.

If someone out there has tried the Cascade Spicy Draught they may be able point you in the right direction for an open category.

Cheers,
Thommo.


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## Jazzafish (26/9/06)

I'm in on this one.

I have moved away from the ales I normally brew and I'm having a go at some lagers at the moment. I hope to have a Munich Helles & a Munich Dunkel to enter. I could use some feedback as they are both first attempts at the styles. I recon I may be able to knock up a Bitter, Porter and Stout too.

Heres to happy brewing! :super:


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## dogbolter (28/9/06)

Looks like a great line up of sponsors & prizes.


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## petesbrew (29/9/06)

What section would you enter a k&k Aussie Pale Ale into? There's no section that comes close.


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## bigfridge (29/9/06)

petesbrew said:


> What section would you enter a k&k Aussie Pale Ale into? There's no section that comes close.



I would enter it in the Australian Pale Ale category in the NSW Brewing Championships  

The guidelines are here.


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## Thommo (9/10/06)

Hello Brewers.

Just giving this a bump. Entries for the Castle Hill Homebrew Comp close 21st October 2006. Less than two weeks to go.

Don't forget to get your entries into your nearest (or favourite) homebrew store to be eligible for our fantastic prizes.

Keep the entries coming.

Cheers,
Thommo.


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## Jazzafish (17/10/06)

Better get brewing!!!

For those who don't know...

Entry Form can be found Here: 
http://hillsbrewersguild.com/announcements...0Nov%202007.pdf 

*Sponsors and Prizes Include: *
Paddys Brewery 
Paddys will be providing each category class winner with a quality engraved beer glass. Paddys will present the Winner of Best in Show or Grand Champion Brewer with an engraved display mug. 
Winner of Best in Show or Grand Champion Brewer will win a personal Brewing Master Class with Callum Service at Paddys Brewery. 
Hunter Beer Company 
For the Hills District Champion, the Hunter Beer Company has donated a Brewery package for 2 at their Potters Hotel and Brewery in the Hunter Valley. The package includes a private brewery tour and tasting with Luke their brewer, hot breakfast for 2 and the chance to brew on site with Luke. 
In addition, the Hunter Beer Company will present each class winner with a magnum of the Hunter Beer Companys hand crafted Kolsch. 

*Brewcraft Limited*
Brewcraft has donated the following fine brewing concentrates and vodka flavourings for distribution amongst winners and place getters in the Kit Section: 
1x Brewcraft Guiness Style Recipe Kit RRP $47.95 
1x Brewcraft Hoegaarden Style Recipe Kit RRP $34.60 
1x Brewcraft James Squire Amber Ale Style Recipe Kit RRP $39.15 
1x Brewcraft Little Creatures Pale Ale Style Recipe Kit RRP $39.15 
2x Still Spirits Cafelua Liqueur Packs RRP $11.45 ea 
2x Still Spirits Melon Liqueur Packs RRP $11.45 ea 
2x Still Spirits White Rum Liqueur Packs RRP $11.45 ea 
2x Still Spirits Black Sambuca Liqueur Packs RRP $11.45 ea 
2x Still Spirits Irish Cream Liqueur Packs RRP $12.40 ea 

*Absolute Home Brew * 
Absolute Home Brewing has donated a 25Kg sack of uncracked Weyermann Vienna Malt grain and a 25 Kg sack of uncracked Weyermann Pilsener Grain, for the winners of their sponsored categories. In the event that the same brewer wins both categories the second bag will be awarded to a second place getter at the judges discretion. 
Total value, $140 RRP. Grain variety subject to availability 
*
Country Brewer * 
Country Brewer will provide a can of X-Tract Concentrate and one of their famous TCB Wet Packs to the winner of their sponsored categories. Total value $114 RRP 

*Dave Home Brew * Daves Home Brew will provide a BrewMaster game to the winners of sponsored categories. Total value $70 RRP 

*World Beers * 
World Beers will donate a mixed six pack of imported beer plus a quality beer glass to the winners of their sponsored categories.


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## Bobby (17/10/06)

when does judging occur? 
i have just bottled a beer i would like to enter however i am unsure whether it will have enough time to carb up and be worthy of entering.


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## DJR (17/10/06)

Nov 4 and 5, so you have 2/12-3 weeks for carbing, almost just enough (i think i'm putting in one i bottled last week so not far off!)


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## Linz (17/10/06)

Ive asked over on the country brewer website and I'm asking here too....


Can someone please define the "Hills District Champion"??,... is it the same as "Winner of Best in Show or Grand Champion Brewer"

..if so theres a wealth of knowledge for the overall winner of this show 




For the Hills District Champion, the Hunter Beer Company has donated a Brewery package for 2 at their Potters Hotel and Brewery in the Hunter Valley. The package includes a private brewery tour and tasting with Luke their brewer, hot breakfast for 2 and the chance to brew on site with Luke.


and


Winner of Best in Show or Grand Champion Brewer will win a personal Brewing Master Class with Callum Service at Paddys Brewery


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## Stuster (17/10/06)

Linz, according to the entry form



> Ribbon for Hills District Champion- Brewer residing in the Hills district with the
> highest average score



Now how is the Hills district defined? :lol:


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## Tseay (19/10/06)

Guest Lurker said:


> The requirement for two bottles may cut down on interstate entries, but I might enter a beer for NZ, posted from WA. If posting beer from outside of NSW, which is the preferred agent to receive them?



GL,

I've been out of town for a while and just noticed your post. Send your beer to The Castle HIll Show Office as decribed in the form. If you still have any querries please PM me.

Cheers
T

PS Please highlight that is entered as a NZ beer if that's what you decide to do


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## Tseay (19/10/06)

Stuster said:


> Linz, according to the entry form
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Castle Hill Shire area


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## Tseay (19/10/06)

Linz said:


> Ive asked over on the country brewer website and I'm asking here too....
> 
> 
> Can someone please define the "Hills District Champion"??,... is it the same as "Winner of Best in Show or Grand Champion Brewer"
> ...



Linz, the Hills District Champion will only be awarded to the best entry froma someone residing in the HIlls District. Best in Show etc is open to all entrants. For exampe a Canberra entrant won the Best in Show award lst year and a Sydney brewer( not from the HIlls District) won the champion brewer award.. Its possible of course that the Hills District Champion could also win Best In Show, if his/her entry was up to scratch.

I should point out that unlike the State championship, you don't have to live in the state for your beer to win an award. The only exception being the Hills District Champion and the International Beer award. Whilst International entrants will receive the Ag Show awards, they are not eligible to receive the sponsor donated prizes. The cost and difficulties of posting say, 25kg of grain to Canada rule that out. 

Cheers

T



T


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## Linz (19/10/06)

Thanks for that Tseay


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## Tseay (20/10/06)

Morning,

Just a reminder that the closing date for the comp is tomorrow. If you are having trouble meeting the deadline, please PM me and we'll arrange to collect your entry.

We've now received entries from NZ and Canada with the US entries in the good hands of Fedex as we speak. There is an excellent range of prizes available including personal brewing masterclasses with Paddies and Potters.

Cheers

T


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## Tseay (20/10/06)

Just a small point.

We are running Home Brew Retailer awards as part of the castle Hill comp. If you are submtiing an entry via the Castle Hill show off or through a mate, please make sure you nominate your HB retialer.

Cheers
T


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## RobboMC (20/10/06)

As a kit brewer I would like to say it's a shame the kit syle guidlines couldn't be made available earlier,
perhaps it was just me learning about the show a bit late.

The open styles are of course well known and documented and so brews can be brewed to these styles in plenty of time.

I have some great kit dark ale, but not made to the style guidelines.

So a short message to the Castle Hill show people that I hope are reading,

If you are going to have kit classes is it possible to publish and standardise the style guidelines
some time in advance, like around 6 months to a year. I would have loved to have had a decent crack at
the kit classes if I had only known in advance.

Just giving you guys feedback, please don't feel too criticised.


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## Tseay (20/10/06)

Robbo,

Feedback is always welcome and thank you. The guidelines used, closely follow those developed earlier this year for ANWABS ( thanks Wee Stu). Please let me know how your brew differs from the guidelines in case we can take that into account for next year. Guidelines are after all just that.

We decided to introduce a kit section as a trial and welcome any suggestions. My guess is that we could look at a Australian Pale Ale as well, but it will depend on the response from kit brewers to this year's comp.

Cheers

T


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## Tseay (25/10/06)

The US entries arrived yesterday is good condition. We now have a 4 country competition for Best in Show and Champion Brewer and the other prizes. Rumour has it that the Sydney Barley Wine project has decided to enter.


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## Gulpa (25/10/06)

Tseay said:


> Robbo,
> 
> Feedback is always welcome and thank you. The guidelines used, closely follow those developed earlier this year for ANWABS ( thanks Wee Stu). Please let me know how your brew differs from the guidelines in case we can take that into account for next year. Guidelines are after all just that.
> 
> ...



Hi Tseay,


I was in the same boat. I already had my beer made before I found out about the comp (dark ale with cascade) and didnt have an opportunity to brew another to style. 

Without knowing how many kit entries you get, its possible you could do couple of broad classes with a few styles in each. Or at least add a class for american ale. With the popularity of american hops around here you would probably get a few entries.



Cheers,
Andrew.


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## Tseay (25/10/06)

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the feedback - why not enter your beer in the open American Brown Ale category ? As noted in the entry form kit beers aren't restricted to the kt section. Please PM me and we'll arrange to get your beer into the comp.

Your post does raise the broader question as to how to handle the creative brewer when we rely on style guidelines for competitions. The last thing we want is for guidelines to exclude a good beer. There is a section for experimental beers in the BJCP and we need to encourage our cutting edge brewers to enter. Might need some sort of commentary from the brewer as to what she or he was trying to achieve.

A peoples' choice award wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Andrew, have a go and get in touch.

T


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## Gulpa (25/10/06)

Tseay said:


> Hi Andrew,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback - why not enter your beer in the open American Brown Ale category ? As noted in the entry form kit beers aren't restricted to the kt section. Please PM me and we'll arrange to get your beer into the comp.
> 
> ...



Hi Tseay,

Thanks for the reply and the offer. Its already entered in the American Brown category. Sorry I didnt give enough info. 

Now Im sitting here trying to think why I (and other kit brewers) shouldnt be competing in an open class. We obviously should. I have seen results from other shows and understand that kit brewers can do very well in open classes. 

I guess my point is really that if you are going to have specific kit only classes it would be good to have a bit more flexibililty in what you can enter. 

Sorry I cant help with the broader question. At this stage in my brewing I cannot imagine making a beer that did not fit into one of the defined BJCP categories. Maybe one day.

cheers,
Andrew.


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## Stuster (25/10/06)

Tseay said:


> Your post does raise the broader question as to how to handle the creative brewer when we rely on style guidelines for competitions. The last thing we want is for guidelines to exclude a good beer. There is a section for experimental beers in the BJCP and we need to encourage our cutting edge brewers to enter. Might need some sort of commentary from the brewer as to what she or he was trying to achieve.



I think that's a great idea, Tseay. I think brewers are becoming more experimental (partly due to all the info available on the net) and the judging categories should reflect these changes.


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## Tseay (3/11/06)

For entrants information, following some of the sentiments expressed here , we have added a new award - "The President's Choice" award. The AG Society President ( who's interested in what we are doing) will be presented with a range of good beers from the comp and will simply nominate the one he likes .( yep likes)
If this works, then we'll look at some sort of 'people's choice 'award for some of our future events.


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## Stuster (3/11/06)

Tseay said:


> The AG Society President will simply nominate the one he likes .( yep likes)



What sort of subversive nonsense is that? The beer he likes?  :lol:


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## Tseay (6/11/06)

Many thanks to all who entered, helped on the day and in the months leading up to the competition. 

Special thanks to Trev for wrangling the judges, to Linz and Tim who both approached light speed when stewarding, Randall for an enormous amount of work behind the scenes and in front of them, to the professional brewers, Mel, Barry and the guys from the Inner City Brewers and our team from the Hills Brewers. Appologies to any one I didn't mention but should have. ( put it down to age and sleep deprivation)

In terms of follow up, once data entry has been verified, the results will be released to the Agricultural Society and then posted on the HBG web site and here. As the show office is only staffed once a week , I expect that the mail out of tasting sheets etc will probably commence towards the end of next week.

If you have any specific queries please PM me.

Again many thanks to all.

T


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## mikem108 (6/11/06)

Heres some snaps of the day

Special Thanks to Callum for the help in the first flight.


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## Tseay (6/11/06)

Here's a view of most of the team - fine body of brewers


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## homebrewworld.com (6/11/06)

Well done Castle Hill Comp !
Pity i could make it to help out on the day, bloody work.....
My wife say's that photo has more 'chins' than a chineese phone book  

Cheers


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## Trev (7/11/06)

As for the photo, here's the list of who's who:-

(left to right)

Stuster
Brett M
Mikem108
Justin - but I'm not sure of his handle here
Linz
Callum (chief honcho brewer from Paddy's)
Jarrod- but I'm not sure of his handle here either
Mel, aka Little Squares
Brett T - handle etc
Fabian (almost chief honcho brewer at Blue Tongue)
Kevin O'Neill (This man actually owns Snowy Mountains Brewery, and a bloody fine drop it is!)
Damn Fine Looking Guy, there more for show than go!
Randall aka RMJ
Barry Cranstan - have you got any idea how hard it is to get him to judge a category he's not going to win  

Seriously, it was a good comp with some really great entries. I had the pleasure of walking the President of the Castle Hill Showground Society through a number of beers to allow him to pick his favourite, effectively a 'how good is this award'. Congrats to the winners and I hope the inclusion of the Kit beer section will be carried on in future comps - the best kit beer came out with one of the highest scores of the comp - and a damn fine drop it was!.

Trev


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## Thommo (7/11/06)

Stuster
Brett M _aka Duff_
Mikem108
Justin - but I'm not sure of his handle here - _I think it's Spud_
Linz
Callum (chief honcho brewer from Paddy's)
Jarrod- but I'm not sure of his handle here either - _Jazzafish_
Mel, aka Little Squares
Brett T - handle etc _Thommo_ What do you reckon Trev? I think He looks a bit like Brad Pitt!!!
Fabian (almost chief honcho brewer at Blue Tongue)
Kevin O'Neill (This man actually owns Snowy Mountains Brewery, and a bloody fine drop it is!)
Damn Fine Looking Guy, there more for show than go! _Ugliest Bastard I have ever Seen_
Randall aka RMJ
Barry Cranstan - have you got any idea how hard it is to get him to judge a category he's not going to win


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## /// (7/11/06)

Trev said:


> I hope the inclusion of the Kit beer section will be carried on in future comps - the best kit beer came out with one of the highest scores of the comp - and a damn fine drop it was!.



Trev

As much as I love you you lovable hunk of man, i gotta ask why why why has the Castle Hill Comp gone back 5 years in time and decided to discriminate between kit and 'whatever else' beers. And you know this is not personal attack, far from it.

As a mash brewer and comp organiser, together with (according to Victorian's it seems) a troublesome lot we aregue long or hard for any discrimiation to end, particuarly the mash vs k+k carp-oula.

The old excuse was 'the kit brewers felt intimidated...', when you looked at the wording of the entries forms one understood why - it is all in the wording and message delivered. The other thing is that unscrupules dealers, particuarly Country ones, used the comps as an unsavoury free marketing vehicle and who promised support but forgot to forward the cheque for support - on a more than one occasion.

If the mash brewers cannot keep up with the K+K guys that is there problem, so why be discriminatory and not follow the examples of come one, come all and may the best beer win, no matter how it got there - as in the NSW Comp????

I am also suprised my BJCP brethren would follow such distinction when none is offered in the BJCP?

Scotty


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## Phrak (7/11/06)

Ladies & Gents, 
I've uploaded some more pics of the day to the AHB Gallery:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...m&album=104

Regards,
Tim. :beer:


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## Tseay (8/11/06)

/// said:


> Trev said:
> 
> 
> > I hope the inclusion of the Kit beer section will be carried on in future comps - the best kit beer came out with one of the highest scores of the comp - and a damn fine drop it was!.
> ...



As the person with overall responsibility and control for establishing growing and directing this competition, its predecessor and those on the drawing board, these questions are more appropriately addressed to me.

I am surprised, that this question is raised now, following the successful completion of the competition and not in months preceding it. 

As you know we are certainly not the only competition to offer specific opportunities to kit brewers. Kit brewers are the other half of the sky and as far as I am concerned innovations that encourage them to become involved in competitions, have their beer evaluated and help them understandhow they can improve, are on the agenda. 

A Kit section was just one of the innovations introduced this year. Others included the retailer award, the opening up of the competition to overseas entrants and the presidents choice award. Is anyone complaining about these? I don't think they are offered at the State comp. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Will we do it again next year? 

Going by the communication on this web site, we should be expanding the section and not shutting it down. The judge evaluation sheets suggest the judges are happy with what we've done. Numbers of entrants have grown, so I guess they must be happy.

What I can tell you is that my colleagues and I will continue to look at ways of making the comp exciting and interesting to entrants and judges alike. Some innovations we will continue, some we will drop and some we will develop. We certainly won't be constrained in looking at approaches that differ from other competitions.

T


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## Phrak (8/11/06)

The local paper covered our illustrious competition as well. 

I reckon these are the best lookin' judges out of the lot of them!  :blink: 




Tim.


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## /// (8/11/06)

I thought an innovation was something new .... anyway thats just me. 

With the demographic of the stores in the Hills area and the brewers, things have obviously moved on and as anything should do, things should move with the masses. I am suprised that the biggest point of arguement between Kit Brewers and Mash brewers (and retailers) when it came to comp's has changed, and if it is a good thing then its a good suprise. 

For years we were beaten from pillar to post for discriminating between the 2 types of brewers, but if that brings results and happy entrants then ce la vie! 

I'm far from complaining about the matter, just making an observation, i just leave complaining to the Mexicans....

Scotty


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## Gulpa (8/11/06)

/// said:


> Trev
> 
> As much as I love you you lovable hunk of man, i gotta ask why why why has the Castle Hill Comp gone back 5 years in time and decided to discriminate between kit and 'whatever else' beers. And you know this is not personal attack, far from it.
> 
> ...



Hi Scotty,

As one of those who asked for an expansion of the kit classes I thought I would chip in as I have been thinking on this issue some more. Im not really sure that kit brewers feel intimidated. 

I think that kit brewers are becomming better educated. It is now very easy to access good information and there is a growing variety of good local and imported beers we can compare our beers to. 

As a result of this, I think kit brewers know where their beers sit in the beer spectrum and understand that there are limitations involved with kit brewing that are going to be difficult to overcome when making some styles of beer. 

As an example, this winter I brewed a kit czech pils. Its tasty and happy with it but it doesnt have the right malt flavour or much complexity for the style. If I entered this beer in a comp it should lose to someone who better managed this aspect of the style. 

Why is it a problem if the best beer wins? 

Im not certain, but my gut tells me that I cant really achieve the correct malt flavours in my pils while using a kit. Im pretty sure its not as simple as steeping some grains. So I couldnt be bothered entering the beer because I understand the limitation. This is a problem for the comp because it wants as many entries a possible.

I think the real issue is whether the kit brewers can effectively compete in some of the open classes commonly brewed by kit brewers (assuming good class respresentation of faultless AG examples). I have a feeling that the honest answer is in some classes yes and in some classes no. Kit sections in comps should be a recognition of this. They should allow apples to apples type comparisons.


Cheers,
Andrew.


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## mikem108 (8/11/06)

I don't think it matters because a good beer is a good beer regardless of how it was made. Kit or AG.
There was one kit beer I judged on sunday and if I hadn't been told it was a kit I never would have picked it up. It may have been a partial but it was esentially a faultless and very drinkable beer.


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## /// (8/11/06)

Why is it a problem if the best beer wins? 


Cheers,
Andrew.
[/quote]

Hence the reason changes were made to the NSW as it is about the best beer winning. Where on the day the best beer won. No problem is had or was implied, but personally dicriminating between kit or mash does make an imply something to kit brewing that mash brewers do not have.

The sentiment even as 2-3 years ago (probably still exists) was the kit brewers would not enter as the perception was that they had no chance in other categories other than specified kit. And i gotta say personally, not connected to a comp, that applying limitations to where a kit 'can effectively compete' is pointless.

I have ne'er had a Cczech pils made by a mash brewer that has fitted the style guidlines or the professional example in all my years of judging so I am not sure why you would exclude a kit. The diacetyl profile is never right as is often the hopping. So why would a kit beer not be any better or worse? And is this not taking the context away from the judges on deciding whether the beer is of standard. Already by putting up a white flag and making a point of alienation for a kit brewer rather than embracing the concept and having a go.

So, i'm talking about why stack limitations on a brewer to compete in a class. this is my personal preference, and not a cursory way of how comp's should be run either. It was just a suprise that after so much hard to break down the barriers at the state and national level.

Scotty


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## Gulpa (8/11/06)

/// said:


> Hence the reason changes were made to the NSW as it is about the best beer winning. Where on the day the best beer won. No problem is had or was implied, but personally dicriminating between kit or mash does make an imply something to kit brewing that mash brewers do not have.
> 
> The sentiment even as 2-3 years ago (probably still exists) was the kit brewers would not enter as the perception was that they had no chance in other categories other than specified kit. And i gotta say personally, not connected to a comp, that applying limitations to where a kit 'can effectively compete' is pointless.
> 
> ...




Hi Scotty and Mike,

Thanks for the response. Its an interesting topic. I dont really understand the history of comps so sorry if my understanding in that area is lacking.

Im not saying that good beer cant be made from a kit. I know that it can and Im sure you can make crap AG beer.

I guess you are right Scotty, that kit brewers still have that perception. I certainly do. I assume others do as well.

Ive tried a number of partials and AG beers, though I would like to try more. I have tasted other brewers kit beers. I recognise that I can only speak from these experiences and I admit that my experience may not be broad enough to know what I am talking about.

From tasting partials and AG beers it seems fairly clear to me that there are certain results that are achievable in AG beers that are not achievable in kits. The different malt flavours, complexity as well as texture/mouthfeel come to mind. We could also look at bittering issues. If the results from kits were the same as AG then Im not sure why people would bother with AG brewing.

As for never having a Czech pils that met the style guidelines, I think that is a separate issue. I think when entering these comps that you have to assume that there will be entries that meet the guidelines. Otherwise there doesnt seem to be any point to having classes. Perhaps the pils example was not the right example. 

I think it will be interesting to watch this over the next couple of years. AG brewing is certainly gaining popularity. It seems a that a lot of AG brewers are fairly new to it. It will be interesting to see as AG skills increase whether kit brewers can continue to get the same results that have been getting in comps.

Regards,
Andrew.


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## Gerard_M (8/11/06)

It looks like a very successfully run comp, with plenty of entries, growing from last years humble start. Good to see such a high standard of judges available for such events. Plenty of sponsors have come on board, and the local rag has included a pic of a guy in a horrible shirt, so obviously all is looking good for the future. Well done Chris & Randell and the Hills Brewers guys.

The previous posts leave some interesting points for discussion before next years comp. The argument has been around for ages about Kits vs all grain & has become so boring that some of the combatants seem to have changed sides to liven things up. I guess we were about due for another K+K vs AG debate.

Cheers
Gerard


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## Jazzafish (10/11/06)

It is interesting that people are seeing a negative side to a Kit section. Most of the people I spoke to asked for a kit section. 

The way I look at it is this is a brewing competition. There are strict guidelines that define a class of beer and the brewer is judged on his/her ability to brew to that style. We just picked the most popular kits as a beer style. Fair to say that Australian Lager or Australian Old kits are in their own style of beer.

We are not talking about what is a good brewing method. We are just setting guidelines to brew to. That is a competition.

That said I rarely brew to style


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## RobboMC (20/2/07)

I thought I'd add my 20 cents worth to the K&K vs AG brew comp debate. 

As a newbie and a kit brewer my experience of last year's comp left me a little reluctant to try again.
NOT because I was looked down upon as a kit brewer, in fact the feedbacks didn't mention kits.

I am reluctant because as a beginner I am a bottler; and that means the sediment from bottle conditioning
remains in the bottle. Until of course, I try and freight it off to a brew comp, when it gets stirred up into the beer.

Fellow tasters have been experimenting with me, all we did one day was drive the brew across town,
and hey presto, we could suddenly taste all the faults found by the judges.

No one is to blame for this, it's the way life is.

But as a newbie to comps it appears from my limited view that unless one has a kegging set up and one of those fancy gizmos to transfer from keg to bottle and gas up the bottle with CO2 from the cylinder then it's pretty much a waste of time submitting your brew. I didn't get the benefit of the feedback the judge would have liked to provide because the beer I am tasting at home is different from that tasted by the judges.

I would think it's safe to assume that brewers that have gone AG and enter comps would be much more likely to have spent the money on kegging gear than newbies. So this is my explanation of why you get a huge percentage of AG entries in comps.

Being a beginner, I don't know how to fix this problem, or even if it can be fixed, because a decent brew can take months to drop all it's sediment.


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## DJR (20/2/07)

RobboMC said:


> becuase a decent brew can take months to drop all it's sediment.



Not when you cold condition the beer and use secondary, beer is clear pretty quickly. That or use Polyclar/Gelatin/Finings in secondary as well as that. The beers are stored cold/cool (lager/ale) for a few days at most comps so most of the sediment will settle. That said, judges don't generally mark you down for hazy appearance since it's pretty common. You'll only lose 1 or 2 points out of 50 for it - under the BJCP system appearance only counts for 3 marks.

I got Best Australian entry, the President's Choice award and a couple of other places in the CH show with non-kegged, normally fermented beer, with just a bit of CC'ing and only polyclar in 1 entry (the rest might have got a bit of gelatin as well but i can't remember). Can't be assed paying big $$$'s for a kegging setup when bottles work fine (i drink most of my beer away from the house), and kegs would only increase my drinking at home to dangerous levels h34r: .


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## Guest Lurker (20/2/07)

RobboMC said:


> I thought I'd add my 20 cents worth to the K&K vs AG brew comp debate.
> 
> 
> Being a beginner, I don't know how to fix this problem, or even if it can be fixed, because a decent brew can take months to drop all it's sediment.



You actually have this backwards. It is very difficult to win a comp using a kegged counter pressure filled bottle because of the small amount of oxidation that sneaks in during this process. A beer that tasted fine in the keg will often develop diacetyl after being transferred to a bottle and sent off. The yeast in a bottle conditioned beer helps protect it. As long as they stand it in a fridge for a while before the comp, you should expect to score better with a bottle conditioned beer than a pressure filled beer.


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## HappyClem (20/2/07)

I'm over comps. Why send away precious beer in precious longnecks, and pay someone to tell me how bad it is?
I'll stick to trying it out on my New/VB swilling mates. Their standards are a lot easier to meet!


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## newguy (20/2/07)

RobboMC said:


> I thought I'd add my 20 cents worth to the K&K vs AG brew comp debate.
> 
> Fellow tasters have been experimenting with me, all we did one day was drive the brew across town,
> and hey presto, we could suddenly taste all the faults found by the judges.
> ...



As someone else has mentioned, the sediment/yeast really shouldn't have anything to do with it. Think of all the world class 'classic' beers that are bottle primed....German lagers, German wheat beers, Belgians, etc. They're shipped a lot farther than just across town, across the state or across the country. They're shipped overseas. Usually by the cheapest method, container vessel. They get stirred up, endure blistering heat for months at a time, and yet they're still great.

Bottle-to-bottle variability is a huge issue with homebrewers. You can have 100 good bottles, but one will have a dust particle fall in it, or a hair, or whatever.....It may also get splashed and oxidized. Before you know it, it's infected with bacteria or wild yeast, or oxidized. And you know what? That's usually the bottle that you'll ship to a competition. It happens to everyone, even very experienced and gifted homebrewers.

What you should take away from this is that perhaps your bottle sanitation could maybe use some improvement, as could your transfer technique, as could your overall sanitation. Address those issues and you'll likely never have bad bottles again.

Again, as someone else has mentioned, I know a couple of brewers who own a counterpressure bottle filler so that they can fill bottles directly from a keg. And both of them refuse to use them anymore. They're a pain in the butt to learn how to properly use, and the resulting product doesn't taste as good as the bottle conditioned version. From what I understand, the first few times you try to use it, you'll end up wearing and walking in more beer than what's in the bottles.


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## DJR (20/2/07)

HappyClem said:


> I'm over comps. Why send away precious beer in precious longnecks, and pay someone to tell me how bad it is?
> I'll stick to trying it out on my New/VB swilling mates. Their standards are a lot easier to meet!



You would think so, but give some people a beer with any flavour (not the flavour of water and piss combined) and "whoa, it's the homebrew taste". No shit, i gave someone a taste of my Bohemian Pils the other day, AG beer with a 3 month lagering period, absolutely the cleanest beer i have made and "whoa, it still tastes like homebrew"  

More for us


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## floppinab (20/2/07)

DJR said:


> You would think so, but give some people a beer with any flavour (not the flavour of water and piss combined) and "whoa, it's the homebrew taste".



Since getting back into the game I'm finding that most of my mates are pretty impressed in what they've tasted thus far. I've been a bit surprised, generally expecting a lot more of the reaction that you describe. That said although 90% of what they drink is plain old aussie lager they have sampled your MacQuarie's, RedOaks, etc. and recognise the real flavours when they get round to my place.

The best comments have been reserved for the ISB beauties of course


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## RobboMC (28/2/07)

Tseay said:


> We decided to introduce a kit section as a trial and welcome any suggestions. My guess is that we could look at a Australian Pale Ale as well, but it will depend on the response from kit brewers to this year's comp.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> T




Tseay suggests the possibility of an Aussie Pale Ale class. Well I for one would definately enter an Aussie PA, whether it was a K&K class or open. Looks like petesbrew is also looking for a similar class.
I hope there is an Aussie PA class in the next comp. It looks like there is sufficient interest to run a class.


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## Linz (28/2/07)

RobboMC said:


> Tseay suggests the possibility of an Aussie Pale Ale class. Well I for one would definately enter an Aussie PA, whether it was a K&K class or open. Looks like petesbrew is also looking for a similar class.
> I hope there is an Aussie PA class in the next comp. It looks like there is sufficient interest to run a class.



Why not in this class

6B. Blonde Ale

Aroma: Light to moderate sweet malty aroma. Low to *moderate fruitiness is optional, but acceptable*. May have a low to medium hop aroma, and can reflect almost any hop variety. No diacetyl.

Appearance: Light yellow to *deep gold* in color. Clear to brilliant. Low to medium white head with fair to good retention.

Flavor: Initial soft malty sweetness, but optionally some light character malt flavor (e.g., bread, toast, biscuit, wheat) can also be present. Caramel flavors typically absent. Low to medium esters optional, but are commonly found in many examples. Light to moderate hop flavor (any variety), but shouldn't be overly aggressive. Low to medium bitterness, but the balance is normally towards the malt. Finishes medium-dry to somewhat sweet. No diacetyl.

Mouthfeel: Medium-light to medium-full body. Medium to high carbonation. Smooth without harsh bitterness or astringency.

Overall Impression: Easy-drinking, approachable, malt-oriented American craft beer.

History: Currently produced by many microbreweries and brewpubs. Regional variations exist (many West coast brewpub examples are more assertive, like pale ales) but in most areas this beer is designed as the entry-level craft beer.

Comments: In addition to the more common American Blond Ale, this category can also include modern English Summer Ales, American Klsch-style beers, and less assertive American and English pale ales.

Ingredients: Generally all malt, but can include up to 25% wheat malt and some sugar adjuncts. Any hop variety can be used. Clean American, lightly fruity English, or Klsch yeast. May also be made with lager yeast, or cold-conditioned. Some versions may have honey, spices and/or fruit added, although if any of these ingredients are stronger than a background flavor they should be entered in specialty, spiced or fruit beer categories instead. Extract versions should only use the lightest malt extracts and avoid kettle caramelization.
Vital Statistics:
OG FG IBUs SRM ABV
1.038 - 1.054 1.008 - 1.013 15 - 28 3 - 6 3.8 - 5.5%


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## RobboMC (6/3/07)

Thanks, this looks pretty close to Aussie Pale Ale though I'll have to tone down the hop additions somewhat.
What is the difference between this and 6a, Cream Ale; they look very similar.

Would Sparkling Ale fit into either of these categories?


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## petesbrew (6/3/07)

RobboMC said:


> Tseay suggests the possibility of an Aussie Pale Ale class. Well I for one would definately enter an Aussie PA, whether it was a K&K class or open. Looks like petesbrew is also looking for a similar class.
> I hope there is an Aussie PA class in the next comp. It looks like there is sufficient interest to run a class.



Yeah, I had no idea what to enter my Aussie Pale Ale as. Ended up just throwing it in the K&K Aussie Lager section, but surprise surprise it wasn't to style. But at least it wasn't totally written off by the judges.
Next time with any comp I'll either enter it in exactly the right class. If no class exists i'll give it a miss.


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## DJR (6/3/07)

RobboMC said:


> Thanks, this looks pretty close to Aussie Pale Ale though I'll have to tone down the hop additions somewhat.
> What is the difference between this and 6a, Cream Ale; they look very similar.
> 
> Would Sparkling Ale fit into either of these categories?



Cream ale usually has some rice/corn added, less IBU as well. Cream ale should really use noble hops, blonde ale can use anything.

I think sparkling ale would *just* fall outside 6B Blonde Ale, since it's 5.7% ABV rather than the limit of 5.6% ABV, but who's noticing. It would still be fine in that category.

Personally i think the BJCP rules in cat 6 are sufficient for Cooper's style beers, and it saves the hassle of being either lumped with the British pales (too estery) and the American pales (too hoppy)


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## Tseay (6/3/07)

If we proceed with the comp this year, it would make sense to adopt the Anawabs spec for Australian Pale Ale. You can check it out via the link in Wee Stu's Anawabs post on this forum. The style along with the Dark Ale could also be part of the open as well as the kit section, if there was enough interest.

http://www.anawbs.org.au/index.php?mode=entry


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