# 'tipping' Hop Bines



## Bongchitis (30/8/09)

G'Day all,

I'm a bit of a gardener and I am growing Cascade and Goldings hops in large 1/2 wine barrels. It is my first try and they have only shot up in the last 2 weeks but already I know they are going to outgrow the location very quickly in terms of height which leads me to the question:

Can you nip out the growing tips of the bine to induce side branching and minimise the overall size of the plant?

This is done with a wide variety of plants to maintain a compact nature and to increase the homogenity and yield of flowers. You don't get huge flowers but heaps of medium sized ones.

I have had a quick look and everyone who writes about hop growing advocates giving them height, no real mention of other stratagies.

I was just wondering what people thought and if anyone had experience doing this with hops.

Any advice would be great.

Cheers all................Bongchitis


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## Sammus (30/8/09)

I've thought about growing hops and winding them back and forth on a grate thing to cover a big square area... kind of like 'SOG' style...even to do it under lights indoors...


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## Bongchitis (30/8/09)

Well the 'hops cousin' and growing methods is what made me think of it.

I like the SOG/SCROG setup. Looks great in full swing and would be easily achievable to reduce height, but to work as a yield maximiser you need multiple growth tips and I guess thats where the tipping comes in.

Indoor hops would be great, perpetual hop garden!... and as with hydro 'cousins', they are grown to their latent potential and thus resins and oils are maximised. I guess for hops that means more bang for your buck for bitering, flavour and aroma!




Sammus said:


> I've thought about growing hops and winding them back and forth on a grate thing to cover a big square area... kind of like 'SOG' style...even to do it under lights indoors...


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## thylacine (30/8/09)

"...Adjustable Trellis 
If you set up the adjustable trellis as described earlier, the hop vines will soon grow towards the top of the stake. When they are a few inches below the eye, untie the twine from the base of the stake and feed out a few feet of twine, letting the vine droop a bit. You may need to pull the vine gently downward to get the twine to slide through the hook and eye. Then, loosely tie the twine to the stake again. 

As the vine grows, youll need to feed out more twine every time it approaches the top of the stake. In the part of the season when the vines grow the fastest, you may need to adjust it every week. If you keep making this adjustment, the tips of the vines will always be growing upwards, approaching the top of the stake. The bulk of the vine will eventually be coiled on the ground next to the planter. This doesnt seem to bother the plant, but make sure the leaves dont stay wet or get infested with insects. Once the vine touches the ground, I like to tie a loop of regular twine around the vine and the stake. This keeps the vines from getting whipped around too much when it is windy. A nice benefit of the adjustable trellis is that you can harvest the cones progressively, and theyll all be at an easily reachable height. And if they arent, just adjust the trellis. Containers eliminate many worries about space..."

http://www.byo.com/stories/article/indices...s-in-containers

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=35306


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## altone (30/8/09)

Bongchitis said:


> Well the 'hops cousin' and growing methods is what made me think of it.
> 
> I like the SOG/SCROG setup. Looks great in full swing and would be easily achievable to reduce height, but to work as a yield maximiser you need multiple growth tips and I guess thats where the tipping comes in.
> 
> Indoor hops would be great, perpetual hop garden!... and as with hydro 'cousins', they are grown to their latent potential and thus resins and oils are maximised. I guess for hops that means more bang for your buck for bitering, flavour and aroma!



Well, if it works, all those brew and grow type LHBS will have a whole new level of use to us brewers.
Year round fresh hops from your own indoor hop garden  

I would like to see if it's possible to get decent results by tipping and keeping height down a little as I could then grow 
more varieties - limited space out back, but plenty of free space at the front if I could keep them to 1.5m or so.
I have 2x Hallertau rhizomes growing so will try it out on one and compare the results.

I guess it'll take a while before the results are available though ......


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## Bongchitis (30/8/09)

http://journals.uzpi.cz/uniqueFiles/02771.pdf

... Interesting article and seems to debunk a few tried and 'true' hop growing theories such as only leave 3 bines to grow etc.

Pruning early mid and late season and effects to yield and AA%... just skimmed it and need to reread to deduce what is meant by 'pruning' exactly. I believe these are ground grown aswell but still relevant.

It also advocates the growth of up to 3 bine up the 1 pole for compactness and yield. They are a comparitively sparce plant with long internodal length so this makes sense.

It seems the more I look the more people state that the laterals are where the bulk of the flowers come from thus in my mind more laterals mean more flowers and this fits with my previous experience with tipping plants. Tip early... Laterals grow/mature themselves becoming growth tips...Produce more laterals... More flowers. This is limited of course by root size, health of plant etc. No point tipping a spindly sick plant and stressing it further.

bb: It would be good to compare the 2 Hallertau side by side. 1 tipped, 1 not. I await the results.

Thylacine: Adjustable trellis... Nice to keep the height down, nice links. Thanks

I am going to search further but I will just bite the bullet and do it. I have no experience with this plant and no standard to compare to but will continue regardless and post results here and hopefully bods will do the same. Anyone else willing to take a chance is more than welcome to post resuts here also.

Anecdotal evidence is just evidence without a large data set and critical assesment and will be good enough for me if a few of us get similar results compared to expectation... one way or the other.

Thanks so far guys, keep the ideas coming.

Cheers






boddingtons best said:


> Well, if it works, all those brew and grow type LHBS will have a whole new level of use to us brewers.
> Year round fresh hops from your own indoor hop garden
> 
> I would like to see if it's possible to get decent results by tipping and keeping height down a little as I could then grow
> ...


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## Bizier (30/8/09)

I think if you tip your bine, it probably won't fork to two new smaller leaders. Therefore, you might be limited to the amount of hop flowers from a finite number of laterals, even if these are slightly heavier yielding than usual.

My 2c, and I could be wrong, but I have not noticed much activity from bines that have experienced damage to the growing tip. That said, the bines that I speak of are attached to a plant in the ground with other large leaders, so the plant might simply be diverting the energy to other bines.


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## Bongchitis (30/8/09)

Yeah, I only have experience with umbrella tipping where ALL larger growth centres are tipped and is done on plants prone to laterals developing without tipping. Hops seem to be straight up and down until late in the season where the vegetative growth has been occuring for some time ie. Laterals not usually found below 2m mark. With hop cousins, laterals seem to be induced pre flowering and nodal length is shortened as a standard mechanism of development thus producing the tight/dense floral cluster known as heads. Perhaps the late lateral development is a sign that the plant is getting ready to flower and not a standard occurence in a plant in vegetative growth. In which case the experiment is doomed to fail unless I utilise Giberralic acid (or other growth promoter) to get the laterals cranking whilst still in vegetative growth. 

But I love to fail, i am exceptionally good at it in fact... so I will continue.




Bizier said:


> I think if you tip your bine, it probably won't fork to two new smaller leaders. Therefore, you might be limited to the amount of hop flowers from a finite number of laterals, even if these are slightly heavier yielding than usual.
> 
> My 2c, and I could be wrong, but I have not noticed much activity from bines that have experienced damage to the growing tip. That said, the bines that I speak of are attached to a plant in the ground with other large leaders, so the plant might simply be diverting the energy to other bines.


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## thylacine (30/8/09)

"...Our homebrewing group is primarily about growing hops (humulus lupulus) in small gardens or large hop farms, and these related topics: trellis and arbor design; disease and pest treatment; hop drying, storage, and use; and the exchange of hop rhizomes and whole-hops..."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Grow-Hops/


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## barls (30/8/09)

i tip mine and get great side laterals.


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## Bongchitis (30/8/09)

I was hoping you would chime in barls as you obviously grow hops well... seemed to have a thousand rhysomes for sale recently.

I have a few Q's then mate:

Do you tip early or late in the veg growth stage? (@ what height of leader)

Do you think it makes a difference to the uniformity and yield of cones?

How often do you tip? (once per leader or more)

By how much does this reduce the overall height of the plant?

Does the tipping delay the maturation of the cones?

any other tips mate???


Again, thanks for chiming in......cheers.


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## barls (30/8/09)

ok i only tip once they reach the top of my trellis so to limit the vertical growth bear in mind i still run the side laterals up the twine as well.
as for reducing my crop i dont think it does as this is the way ive done it every year so far and i always seem to get at least 3 harvests off my bines.


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## Bongchitis (1/9/09)

Ok then,

barls tips late with seemingly no ill effects to yield etc.

My plan is to tip early on in the leaders growth as a pre-emptive strike on height and to give them a chance to develop and mature. Previous experience with other plants seems to indicate that too late a tipping doesn't give the laterals a chance to grow out and throw out laterals themselves and seems to have a negative impact on flower quality, yield and delays maturation of flowers.

Shit...my missus needs the computer...to be continued.


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## Bongchitis (1/9/09)

Right then,

as I was saying... 

I'm planning on early tipping, and perhaps again shortly after depending on how vigorous the growth is. 1 leader becomes 2+, which becomes 4+ and then let it grow out for a couple of months before onset of flowers. Strict fert and water regime will likely be implemented aswell.

again I wont have a standard untipped plant as a reference but it should be easy to see if I have made a blunder if the cones are only fingernail size or it doesn't flower at all. Really, If i get a harvest of healthy cones, be they smallish, on a bine that I can reach the top of I'll be happy... and I will learn something along the way. And if I **** up then that is just par for the course.

Thylacine: Is that pic on the home page of the yahoo site a single plant? If so there is no way I'll be planting in the ground. It almost takes up half the house!

I might as well take some pics and make this a grow log, will start today.

Anybody else with ideas or input?

Cheers............Bongchitis


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## eric8 (1/9/09)

So the thinking here is that once it gets to a certain height, you tip the leading bine, thus making any laterals that start to grow get more of the nutrients from the plant.

At what type of height are you talking here, or how long should you let the leading tip grow for before tipping? Do you then start to let the laterals grow up the stake, or are you going to try and let them grow on something sideways?

I take it the main aim is to get most of the nutrients to the laterals so you can try and produce more cones and a bigger yield?


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## Bongchitis (1/9/09)

eric8 said:


> So the thinking here is that once it gets to a certain height, you tip the leading bine, thus making any laterals that start to grow get more of the nutrients from the plant.
> 
> At what type of height are you talking here, or how long should you let the leading tip grow for before tipping? Do you then start to let the laterals grow up the stake, or are you going to try and let them grow on something sideways?
> 
> I take it the main aim is to get most of the nutrients to the laterals so you can try and produce more cones and a bigger yield?




That is exactly what I am trying to do but an added advantage is a shorter compact plant that is easier to harvest. I have tipped plants in the same family the node after the true leaves appear from a seed grown plant... 5cm tall and then again shortly after with great results. I will do the same here. I try to move/spread the growing tip apart and snip out as little material as possible to minimise shock and tend to do it at nightfall out of direct sun.

Yep grow all laterals up the existing stake/wire as barls does and they become leaders themselves if given enough time. The journal article posted above indicates multiple leaders on one wire can be beneficial.

My Cascade is now almost 50cm tall in 2 weeks so I will tip now. Probably would have done it earlier if I had thought about it then.

A few pics:






Overview of location, Left is Cascade, right Goldings


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## Bongchitis (1/9/09)

The offender.


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## Bongchitis (1/9/09)

Chopped it!


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## Bongchitis (1/9/09)

North Westerly aspect, good sun. Best potting mix I could buy with some water crystals added. Sugar cane mulch used.


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## Bongchitis (1/9/09)

:icon_offtopic:





another one of my passions, grafting cacti. 2 different cacti grafted to a 3rd variety root stock. Will eventually consist of 6 or 7 varieties on 1 plant.


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## eric8 (1/9/09)

Bongchitis said:


> View attachment 30340
> 
> 
> 
> Chopped it!


So you open up the tip and snip out some of whats in there? How much? Anything in particular?


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## Kodos (1/9/09)

For what it's worth I'm not going to tip mine this year.

I've tipped my plants for several years thinking that was the way to go, and had either no or mininal cone production. I did it because that's what some of the original material I read on hop growing suggested - including that the majority of cone production occurred on the latteral growth. My reading since suggests the bulk of production occurs on the tallest part of the plant so I'll be doing everything I can to get the buggers as tall as possible (along with a better soil/watering strategy).

I also used to cut back all but one bine. I'll let four or more go this time (I think it'll be good insurance incase one bine gets damaged and stops growing - as has happened with my plants in the past)

If I don't get anything this year I'll rip the buggers out and start again!!

Good luck with your plants.


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## ~MikE (1/9/09)

that's what i thought, hop cones on laterals on the tallest parts of the bine. i may top mine but it would only be if growth were slowing and the cones were developing.


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## Bongchitis (1/9/09)

eric8 said:


> So you open up the tip and snip out some of whats in there? How much? Anything in particular?



Yeah just pull aside the leaves at the tip and cut the main stem as close to the end as possible without mangling what remains.


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## Bongchitis (1/9/09)

Kodos said:


> For what it's worth I'm not going to tip mine this year.
> 
> I've tipped my plants for several years thinking that was the way to go, and had either no or mininal cone production. I did it because that's what some of the original material I read on hop growing suggested - including that the majority of cone production occurred on the latteral growth. My reading since suggests the bulk of production occurs on the tallest part of the plant so I'll be doing everything I can to get the buggers as tall as possible (along with a better soil/watering strategy).
> 
> ...




That's what I am afraid of, stressing the plant to the point of not flowering. I think flowering is triggered by maturity/day length/temp etc not nessearilly height, it is just a coincidence that a mature plant at the end of vegetative growth with laterals starting to develop... is tall! I am hoping that instead of say 3 bines 30ft tall, I get maybe 12 bines, slightly less vigorous and less advanced (medium sized cones but heaps of them) but at a height of 6-8ft when triggered to flower... I'm still going to have 'The tallest part of the plant' but it is going to be hopefully half as tall as a bine that is untipped and there are going to be 12 of them instead.

All this is pure speculation on my part having never grown hops before. I reckon we will find out one way or the other though. You are in Canberra hey?
I have heard that certain varieties just grow shit in certain areas. What are your grow particulars? Pot size, fertiliser regime, Water regime, Exposure to sun etc. Barls here might be able to help you out a bit better than what I can.


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## matti (1/9/09)

I am not expert and have forgotten most what I've read about hops more then that they enjoy long hour of sunlight and good nutritious soil.
I envy you growers.

On the hops I recall seeing growing on a family friend summer home back in Suedois the hops were massive and and grew from 1 meter to 2.5 meters and the stems at the bottom was bare.

If if find a photograph I'll post it it was awesome :icon_drool2:


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## tumi2 (2/9/09)

Bongchitis said:


> http://journals.uzpi.cz/uniqueFiles/02771.pdf
> 
> ... Interesting article and seems to debunk a few tried and 'true' hop growing theories such as only leave 3 bines to grow etc.
> 
> ...



Well i have tipped my POR that i dug out from below of a raodside telephone poll in the Derwent Valley in Tassie. I accidently broke the tip last weekend trying to wind it through a trelis. I must say that it has not grown at all this week.!!! I have been closely looking at the lateral growth and am hoping it starts to grow.

In August i dug this plant from the ground. Bought it back to Sydney and planted it in a pot. it is now more than 1 meter high. Not sure how it wil go given the different climate it is now exposed to.


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## Kodos (2/9/09)

Bongchitis said:


> That's what I am afraid of, stressing the plant to the point of not flowering.
> 
> ~snip~
> What are your grow particulars? Pot size, fertiliser regime, Water regime, Exposure to sun etc. Barls here might be able to help you out a bit better than what I can.



If anyone has some tips I'm all ears (eyes?) I just don't want to be seen as hijacking a thread (been lurking a while but not many posts, have read enough to learn inappropriate posting gets put in its place quickly!)

The basic stats are: 1) two plants, hallertau and elsasser (not what I ordered, but sounded interesting)
2) planted in the ground, 30cm of quality soil over pure Canberra clay (already have plans in place to improve this for upcoming season)
3) planted at back of vegetable patch, facing North-West. plenty of sun.
4) had them in this location 3 years now, (had them in pots elsewhere a couple more years previously) got dozen cones on elsasser after year one in current location, maybe half that last year. Never had cones on hallertau.
5) they grow up 2.4m pieces of dowel, held in place between tall star pickets, with twine to support laterals. I've previously let them grow to just above top of dowel, then pinched out tip.
6) watering/feeding regime were inconsistent and admittedly sub-standard last year - I have a (full) water tank now so will give them a lot more this year.

This year I'll get taller posts, and run them up the dowel to about 5ft, then across cable/rope/twine to much taller poles (3.5m-4m). All of the cone growth on the elsasser was on the main vertical, right at the tip - so I'll let it decided when it wants to stop growing up and go from there.


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## kabooby (3/9/09)

Unless you have a dwarf variety, hops generaly don't form under 5ft. This is measured from the base of the plant, not the ground. So if you have them in pots you need to allow for this. Some varieties yield better than others. 

Kabooby


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## Bongchitis (3/9/09)

Hahaha yeah I know. I have always found that to be an amusing thing, especially when on topic :blink: ... consider yourself reprimanded h34r: 




Kodos said:


> If anyone has some tips I'm all ears (eyes?) I just don't want to be seen as hijacking a thread (been lurking a while but not many posts, have read enough to learn inappropriate posting gets put in its place quickly!)




It's funny you got cones on the elasser 1st year then a diminished yield. You say 30cm of good soil on clay... hops are supposed to have massive roots and perhaps they just ran out of root space. I know they don't like wet feet also, the clay won't help on either count. You haven't mentioned fertiliser either and alot of the information out there pretty much says 'They are a weed' and don't need looking after. Any plant you want to grow and harvest will do well with a robust water and fertiliser regime. My cacti can survive on nothing but... give them the appropriate water and fertiliser they go nuts, growing huge amounts and throwing flowers out everywhere. Australian natives are the same, a common misconception is to leave them alone but if you want a good plant it couldn't be further from the truth.

Higher Nitrogen for vegetative growth and Higher Pottasium for flowering at regular intervals. 

That is about all I can add that may be pertinant to your hops. When it comes to plants you reap what you sow.... yeah I know, bad pun.


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## Renegade (3/9/09)

nice trich


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## tumi2 (3/9/09)

well i have 2 hops plant in 2 pots exactly the same size and will be in exactly the same place receiving the same sun.

1) POR that i dug up from Tassie and bought back to sydney as per previous post in this thread.
2) Chinook that i bought from someone in this site

I planted the POR about 2 months ago. Now about 1.2 meters high. I accidently knocked the entire tip of the plant of last weekend.

The Chinook is about 30 cm high and was planted about 6 weeks ago. I dont intent to tip this one.

So i have a comparison between tip and not tipped although the types of plants is different most other things are the same.
I have 2 shoots on each plant, one significantly bigger that the other.
I will take photos and post the progress. 

The POR growth seems to have halted since i tipped. Lateral dos not seem to be getting bigger either. the Chinook is growing noticably daily.


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## Bongchitis (7/10/09)

Back from a few weeks hollidays and it is as if both varieties have stalled, both tipped and untipped bines have just stopped! We have had a couple of cold nights and have heard it knocks them around. It's funny how they were very vigorous for 2 weeks then nil for a month.

Will post pics when they get their groove back.


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## tumi2 (8/10/09)

Bongchitis said:


> Back from a few weeks hollidays and it is as if both varieties have stalled, both tipped and untipped bines have just stopped! We have had a couple of cold nights and have heard it knocks them around. It's funny how they were very vigorous for 2 weeks then nil for a month.
> 
> Will post pics when they get their groove back.




both mine have stalled also. They are now both tipped because i accidently broke the tip from my Chinook and had already done that on the POR. Since breaking the tips both the POR and CHinook have completely stalled and look like they are going to die. They both have some small lateral shoots that are a nice green color but really dont look like they are going to get any bigger.

The leave are gradually going brown and are drying up so i have removed them in hope that this will trigger the small fresh lateral growth. Im not hopeful though and cant see these plants getting a single hops bud.

They were both growing really well before i broke the tips off.


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## beerDingo (8/10/09)

I grew some hops last year from cuttings, and did not get a single hop cone. I am hoping that the root system is large enough now to give me some hops! Last year they got to almost 2 meters high, whereas one of them is already 1-1.5 meters high now!

Hey Bongchitis, careful what you talk about growing on this forum. The cousins of hops and some of those Succulents your talking about might go against Dane's posting rules h34r: . Found they can be pretty anl when talking about modified kegs and such...


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## Bongchitis (8/10/09)

beerDingo said:


> I grew some hops last year from cuttings, and did not get a single hop cone. I am hoping that the root system is large enough now to give me some hops! Last year they got to almost 2 meters high, whereas one of them is already 1-1.5 meters high now!
> 
> Hey Bongchitis, careful what you talk about growing on this forum. The cousins of hops and some of those Succulents your talking about might go against Dane's posting rules h34r: . Found they can be pretty anl when talking about modified kegs and such...



Yeah mate, I see where you are coming from but I never once said I grew hops cousin... I am just stating various growth strategies and am experienced with growing a wide variety of plants, just not hops! 

I don't understand the reference to the succulents though. 1 pic of a grafted cacti could hardly be cause for concern, they aren't illegal or offensive unless you put a spine straight through your finger like I did 2 days ago.


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## Bongchitis (8/10/09)

tumi2 said:


> both mine have stalled also. They are now both tipped because i accidently broke the tip from my Chinook and had already done that on the POR. Since breaking the tips both the POR and CHinook have completely stalled and look like they are going to die. They both have some small lateral shoots that are a nice green color but really dont look like they are going to get any bigger.
> 
> The leave are gradually going brown and are drying up so i have removed them in hope that this will trigger the small fresh lateral growth. Im not hopeful though and cant see these plants getting a single hops bud.
> 
> They were both growing really well before i broke the tips off.




Sounds like Sydney weather is not being kind to our hops. Anyone else from Sydney who has had their hops stall and hasn't tipped them? I am still holding onto the hope that the tipping will work and don't really want to think that I have butchered my plants... yet.


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## Mantis (9/10/09)

I havent tipped mine but have pruned off maybe 10 shoots at ground level and let 5 grow. My chinook is in its second year and really wants to put out this year by the looks. 
We have had cold weather here as well and my plant is growing steadily. 
My other first year chinook has shot but stalled at a few inches.


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## beerDingo (9/10/09)

Bongchitis said:


> Yeah mate, I see where you are coming from but I never once said I grew hops cousin... I am just stating various growth strategies and am experienced with growing a wide variety of plants, just not hops!
> 
> I don't understand the reference to the succulents though. 1 pic of a grafted cacti could hardly be cause for concern, they aren't illegal or offensive unless you put a spine straight through your finger like I did 2 days ago.



Yeah sorry, I was just highlighting how anl people can be around here, by being that! So my tongue was in my cheek! Have you noticed the bickering on a certain hop bulk buy thread? And I've seen a cacti that looks similar, that is illegal. Sorry mate! I don't really care, but the forum nazi's can pop their heads up. Just a heads up...

It will be interesting to see how they go after tipping. I wouldn't have tried it as last year, any bine that got broken or chopped, it did not grow again. 

Hope it works out!


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## drsmurto (9/10/09)

I accidentally 'tipped' one of the goldings bines a week ago and as in the past, a new tip has appeared next to the original and its heading in the same direction as the original.

In the past whenever this has occurred the growth of the bines has stalled till to the new tip takes off but i never see any increased sideways growth. 

To be honest, i think if you tip you will see a huge reduction in cone formation. Most of the cones seem to form on the side runners that come off the bines. Reduce the height of the bines and you reduce the number of side runners and therefore the number of cones.

Thats just my 2 c.


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## gruntus (9/10/09)

Bongchitis said:


> Sounds like Sydney weather is not being kind to our hops. Anyone else from Sydney who has had their hops stall and hasn't tipped them? I am still holding onto the hope that the tipping will work and don't really want to think that I have butchered my plants... yet.



I have a perle (1.5m) & saaz (1m) going along happily. Both were newly purchased but weren't from a new rhizome cutting....they had a 1 year old root system. These have been growing at about 2 to 5cm a day.

I have some other varieties that were purchased through gilbrew and were small rhizome cuttings. These have stalled at about 0.5m....I'm guessing that it is to establish a decent root system.


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## benno1973 (9/10/09)

> I accidentally 'tipped' one of the goldings bines a week ago and as in the past, a new tip has appeared next to the original and its heading in the same direction as the original.



Yep, same here. Something took the tip off one of my Mt Hood shoots a couple of weeks ago. I thought all might be lost until a couple of days ago I saw a small shoot emerging at the leaf node below where the tipping occurred. It's growing _very_ slowly, but hopefully it will catch up soon. Other other 2 bines are growing a couple of inches each day!


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## white.grant (9/10/09)

My POR has self tipped in the rotten bloody weather that has been lashing the 'gong for the last couple of weeks, so I will be interested to see how it turns out.

The Campbelltown POR has two bines coming up and is now well in the lead.

cheers

grant


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## Frank (9/10/09)

On one of the several hundred Chinese Hop thread pages, someone linked a PDF with some info on the way the Chinese grow hops.
The photos showed the hops vertically trellised to around 1.8-2.0m or there abouts, where it appears they are tipped and hedged back for mechanisation. If anyone saved the link could they post it here again.
Thanks


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## [email protected] (9/10/09)

A quick search of the topic - turns up this info by crozdog


[codebox]found some info on Chinese hop production that you might be interested in:



From the International Hop Growers 2005 Convention http://www.czhops.cz/tc/pdf/chinesehop.pdf



http://www.sapporobeer.jp/english/kenkyu/agri/china.html



http://www.sourcejuice.com/1024898/2008/08...ltivation-base/[/codebox]


Boston said:


> On one of the several hundred Chinese Hop thread pages, someone linked a PDF with some info on the way the Chinese grow hops.
> 
> The photos showed the hops vertically trellised to around 1.8-2.0m or there abouts, where it appears they are tipped and hedged back for mechanisation. If anyone saved the link could they post it here again.
> Thanks


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## Mantis (9/10/09)

Yes, in that pdf they look only 2m tall, but it also looks like they train the bines horizontally after they reach that height. 
I will keep my climbing strings as they are at about 3m and then train them along the top string


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## drsmurto (10/10/09)

Had a close look at the bines that were accidentally tipped and discovered not 1 but 2 new tips growing out at ~45deg to the original tip.

So maybe i was a little premature in poo poo-ing this method...... will keep an eye on them and see how they progress. If they grow another few leaves i could in theory tip them both again and see what happens. The plant has in excess of 30 bines now so playing around with 1 of them isnt going to screw up the yield.


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## Bongchitis (11/10/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Had a close look at the bines that were accidentally tipped and discovered not 1 but 2 new tips growing out at ~45deg to the original tip.
> 
> So maybe i was a little premature in poo poo-ing this method...... will keep an eye on them and see how they progress. If they grow another few leaves i could in theory tip them both again and see what happens. The plant has in excess of 30 bines now so playing around with 1 of them isnt going to screw up the yield.



Cool!

This is exactly what I wanted to see with mine ... and then tip again shortly after as you mentioned. If the bine is strong enough then you should have at least 4 laterals becoming growing tips.

30 bines  ... Is that normal? or are you sprinkling some Smurto magic dust on them?


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## I like beer (11/10/09)

dr smurtos must be like mine with inexess of 30 bines on them , but if i took the tips out could dip the cutting in clonex or rooting powder and get a heap of new plants for next year


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## drsmurto (12/10/09)

Bongchitis said:


> Cool!
> 
> This is exactly what I wanted to see with mine ... and then tip again shortly after as you mentioned. If the bine is strong enough then you should have at least 4 laterals becoming growing tips.
> 
> 30 bines  ... Is that normal? or are you sprinkling some Smurto magic dust on them?



Mine are in the ground, not in pots and this is the 2nd year for the goldings. When i planted it 2 years ago the root ball was the size of a soccer ball! 

So yes, more than 30 shoots already and this from a rhizome that i cut off several lengths and sold in winter!

The soil here is the magic ingredient, i am surrounded by apple/pear and cherry orchards (and far too many vineyards). That and the bag of horse shit that got dumped on them at the start of winter.  

Will let the 2 new tips grow a few sets of leaves and then tip them both again.


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## tumi2 (12/10/09)

My POR and Chinok that i accidently tipped both stalled as per my previous post.

After several weeks of stalled (next to no growth) dead leaves they are now starting to get some smaller shoots around the bases of other leaf junctions. the plants have not got any taller though since the day they were tipped. I have now taken off all old leaves in hope it spurs along the new growth.

Either way, if the plant does not increasin in heigh and only bushes out am i likelt to get any hops from them?


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## Bongchitis (9/12/09)

Just an update.

Its been zero growth on the hops up untill a couple of weeks ago and then came all this:



Cascade



Goldings


The 2 bines of each that stalled started to grow 4+ laterals each = 8 growth tips per pot... and then there are the extra bines breaking the surface, 2 for the cascade and 6 for the goldings atm. I have tipped these aswell and there are now heaps of laterals going. They are growing very fast!


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## OzMick (9/12/09)

Going to tip a couple of plants this weekend for propagating some cuttings and to encourage some sideways action on my trellis. Earlier in the season tips got burnt on a few plants under 1m tall and had a huge breakout of lateral growth as a result, so now have a stack of growing tips just begging to become clones. 

If it weren't for the fact that the heat did it this time and cost me all of my Chinooks, I'd say that an early tipping once a few feet tall on 1st year growth is probably a really good idea, especially if not throwing many bines from the rhizome.


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## MarkBastard (9/12/09)

I accidentally tipped mine (by tipping I mean that I bent the bine such that it was half-broken). It was about 1.6m high I'd estimate, and I'd estimate I broke it at about the 1m mark.

Everything above the break wiltered very quickly and soon enough the bine above that point started to lose colour.

But the laterals that grew were amazing. I now have 4 laterals in total that I strung along the dead part. I would certainly consider tipping again but I'll wait until flower growth before I make up my mind.

In the pic the one on the left is the one I tipped. It's Chinook. The middle one is Tettnang and the right POR.


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## Dazza_devil (10/12/09)

Here's my 2 bobs worth, it may or may not be applicable or of use,

When it comes to nature I respect it's ability to produce a plant in it's optimum form given it's surrounding environment. We can help it along and perhaps simulate an ideal environment but the plant knows best how to make use of it. I let my hops grow how they want. I hardly even train them, they know where to grow.

The most flowers on a plant may not necessarily mean a good quality individual flower, which is what we want when it comes down to it.

A friend of a mate of mine's uncle is quite an authority on the hop plants close relative. Here is some of his wisdom which may be applicable, and no I'm not stoned or addicted to the stuff.
The flowers closer to the ends and top of the plant have a higher concentration of resins.
Tipping or training the the plant horizontally will not increase yield, only make it easier to conceal.
Ultimate quality flowers will be produced from a single tip.
Hyproponically grown buds may have a stronger potency but may also taste like shit and sometimes almost unidentifiable as the pure product. Also the effect is unnatural and can lead to worsened side effects from it's long term use.
The time of harvest is very important to flower quality. 
The amount of direct sunlight that the plant receives is the most important factor in producing quality flowers.
When the time is right the plant throws everything into flower production, even takes nutrients from it's own leaves.
I would have to consult the knowledge source and contemplate some more but I'm sure there is a lot of other factors which may be applicable.

It is also well known that herbs that have somewhat struggled to grow will produce the better quality and more fragrent oils than those that have been fertilised to buggery in an attempt to increase growth rate and yield. Sunlight, once again is a major discerning factor here. The plant needs as much as it can get to a logical degree. It's better for a plant to put it's energy into flowering at the right time rather than putting it into growth in an attempt to gain more sunlight.

Hope some of it helps. I'm not trying to turn this into a dope growing debate just wanting to raise some probable discerning factors.

Cheers.


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## Bongchitis (11/12/09)

tumi2 said:


> Either way, if the plant does not increasin in heigh and only bushes out am i likelt to get any hops from them?




When the laterals grow and bush out they then become vertical growth tips themselves so it will increase in height!

This is the very thing I am mucking around with, can I reduce height whilst still maintaining flower production... even increasing flower production. Not sure but we will see.


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## OzMick (11/12/09)

Bongchitis said:


> When the laterals grow and bush out they then become vertical growth tips themselves so it will increase in height!
> 
> This is the very thing I am mucking around with, can I reduce height whilst still maintaining flower production... even increasing flower production. Not sure but we will see.



I've read it isn't so much the height of the plant, but more the number of nodes above which a plant will flower. So stunting a plant to be low height with lots of short laterals will be of no use as you won't approach that minimum sort of number, but if training longer horizontal growths I can't see why it won't work if you let it travel far enough.

What it also means is that plants that don't get enough sunlight stretch out to find the sun, meaning a tall plant but perhaps not many nodes, so difficulty in reaching that flowering phase unless you let it grow to be very long.


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## Bongchitis (11/12/09)

OzMick said:


> I've read it isn't so much the height of the plant, but more the number of nodes above which a plant will flower. So stunting a plant to be low height with lots of short laterals will be of no use as you won't approach that minimum sort of number, but if training longer horizontal growths I can't see why it won't work if you let it travel far enough.
> 
> What it also means is that plants that don't get enough sunlight stretch out to find the sun, meaning a tall plant but perhaps not many nodes, so difficulty in reaching that flowering phase unless you let it grow to be very long.




Interesting! I was thinking that early tipping gave each bine time to develop vigour ie. consistent leaf size and shape, thicker stem, faster and more robust growth etc before flowering, which is pretty much saying the same thing in that you have time for the number of nodes on each bine to increase. Late tipping may induce growth of laterals at each node, the more nodes means more laterals thus the resources are spread over a greater number of laterals and spindly growth may result. You don't prune any productive plant I know of just before flowering or fruiting if you are trying to get the best size and quality yield. Pruning is almost universally done prior to the vegetative growth phase or the start of at the latest.

The crux of this idea of mine is tipping early ONLY. Resources spread between 4 laterals, thus reduced vigour compared to the 'parent' bine but still robust enough to support flowering when mature. The internodal length of the untipped bines seem to be quite long whereas the tipped bines have a shorter internodal length atm. It may be possible to achieve this 'minnimum # nodes' in many more and shorter bines. 

With all the flowering/fruiting plants I have grown to date, you need foliage to support flowers/fruit. This means lots of leaves and thus lots of nodes, I think you are onto something Mick.

Both varieties in full sun all day so no dramas there.

There is years of work in this... or they don't flower for 3 years in a row and I give up. At least the leaves are purdy and covers the shitty mist green fence! But I will give it 3 years! See how it goes.


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## Bongchitis (11/12/09)

Boagsy said:


> Here's my 2 bobs worth, it may or may not be applicable or of use,
> 
> When it comes to nature I respect it's ability to produce a plant in it's optimum form given it's surrounding environment. We can help it along and perhaps simulate an ideal environment but the plant knows best how to make use of it. I let my hops grow how they want. I hardly even train them, they know where to grow.
> 
> ...




Boagsy,

Thanks for your Aunties neighbours uncles insights. B) 

Not sure about the tipping/training thing though. Plenty of literature and experience out there that says different... which is why I am attempting this in the first place!


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## Dazza_devil (11/12/09)

My Aunties best friends cousin's dog did have some good literature on the tipping and potency but someone pilfered it. Apparently the flowers can actually protect themselves, extreme heat and sunlight can degrade the resins so it's a bit of this and the other really. More sun equals a more compact plant, the more compact the plant the better and a single crown gives a good balance of this.
The way I see it, the best way to increase your yield would be to split your rhizomes.


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## Bongchitis (13/12/09)

Boagsy said:


> My Aunties best friends cousin's dog did have some good literature on the tipping and potency but someone pilfered it. Apparently the flowers can actually protect themselves, extreme heat and sunlight can degrade the resins so it's a bit of this and the other really. More sun equals a more compact plant, the more compact the plant the better and a single crown gives a good balance of this.
> The way I see it, the best way to increase your yield would be to split your rhizomes.




Yeah man, there are heaps of growth parameters you can tweak but as you mention it is a balancing act. To promote a certain growth characteristic you are inevitably going to have to pay one way or another in terms of yield, work, size etc. What do they say about cake? It is fun playing though.

Splitting the rhizomes is a great idea for yield but being 1st year babies I thought I would leave them be. Increasing yield isn't really a motivator, moreso the reduced height but positive effects on yield are not out of the question (negatives either).

All I can say for now is that both plants are behaving as expected with the proliferation of laterals and look super healthy. I was never really in doubt about tipping reducing height and bushing a plant out, just the effect it would have on flowering.


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## Bongchitis (26/2/10)

Time for me to get over my embarrasment!

Went away for a week in Jan when we had ultra hot days in a row. My plants didn't like being dry and sunbaking for that long and at least half of the bines died off. By this stage though they were 2ft above the fenceline say around 7ft tall and starting to produce the begginings of cones. I was spewing. 

They have only just started to recover but most of the regrowth is basal and really spindly. The taller bines to remain are starting to develop cones again and I have run out of growth height so I have to thread them down through previous growth. 

Note to self: Keep the water up, esspecially in pots and move location to a milder microclimate with more vertical growth space. Would hate to have seen the bine length if I didn't tip.

Anyway, The experiment continues. I was happy with everything until I neglected them now they are sick with only enough decent cones for dry hopping a schooner. Always next year.

Cheers.


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## samward (23/7/12)

Bongchitis said:


> Anyway, The experiment continues. I was happy with everything until I neglected them now they are sick with only enough decent cones for dry hopping a schooner. Always next year.
> 
> Cheers



To resurrect an old thread, did you have any luck with a harvest in 2011??? Or did you come to any conclusions about tip vs no tip?


Cheers
Sam.


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## Bongchitis (24/7/12)

samward said:


> To resurrect an old thread, did you have any luck with a harvest in 2011??? Or did you come to any conclusions about tip vs no tip?
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Sam.




Hahaha thought this one was dead.... at least for a couple of years.

I moved house a year ago and didn't get to take the hops with me. I am gathering some varieties now to hopefully get to a decent level in the ground, in a couple of years.

I still think that this method will yield a more uniform crop in terms of hop size and maturity at the least and I will be trying again for sure. Problem is that single plant comparisons over various years provides nothing more than the anecdotal and thus I probably never had any real way to tell if it worked based upon my own work.

I was kinda hoping when I posted the topic that others had varied experiences and we could start to gather some kind of data set and I am kind of happy actually, for the bump, because with all of these guys growing their own there may be a bit more advice etc out there.

soooo

bump


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## adryargument (24/7/12)

Had 10 plants last season, they got tipped fortnightly by possums.
I found that if they get tipped, they either continue growing or the bine grows out on both sides, turning into 2 bines.


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## Yob (24/7/12)

Bongchitis said:


> I moved house a year ago and didn't get to take the hops with me. I am gathering some varieties now to hopefully get to a decent level in the ground, in a couple of years.



Ha! I wonder how the new tenants/owners are going with the yard full of hops? You should swing by at harvest time with a few beers and a garbage bag or three.. 

Yon

Ed.. Phucking phone


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## samward (24/7/12)

Bongchitis said:


> Hahaha thought this one was dead.... at least for a couple of years.
> 
> I moved house a year ago and didn't get to take the hops with me. I am gathering some varieties now to hopefully get to a decent level in the ground, in a couple of years.
> 
> ...


Don't you know nothing ever goes away on the internet.... 

[topic="65777"]This[/topic] thread started getting into a discussion about tipping bines, and qwertyfly linked to this thread. So I just thought I would follow up to see if there were any results in. 

All being equal a couple of us (including myself) should be resuming the experiment this spring. So we'll have to see what the results show.

Cheers
Sam


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## hoppy2B (24/7/12)

If you want yield you need to grow the plants as big as you possibly can. h34r:


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## qwertyfly (24/7/12)

Fist Time Hop Grower  

Pride of Ringwood
Cluster
Willamette
Hersbruker
Mt Hood

All planted in a Box with no base, approx 1/2 Mtr potting mix.
I have a clothes line (unused) on each side that i plan to grow them on.

Cluster has sent shoots already.
I have had some advise to cover with straw to put them back to sleep for a bit longer, 
that sounds like good advice from "Muscovy" so I have done so.

Not sure yet if I will tip, I think for a first season I would like to let them do what they will to build a strong root system.
Also as a first Time I would like to see how they grow etc...
I will try to post some pics of the planter in the next few days.
I just have so little Daylight to work with at this time of year.


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## Yob (25/7/12)

hoppy2B said:


> If you want yield you need to grow the plants as big as you possibly can. h34r:



With what do you qualify this? Go back to the start and read this thread again.

As a first year hop grower yourself have you done this experiment already? If so post your results, if not then piss off till you do have something of value to add..

Some of us here are keen to experiment, if youre not joining in, float your own boat in the 2012 Hops thread and let us keep this on the topic at hand..

Tipping hop plants.


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## hoppy2B (29/7/12)

iamozziyob said:


> With what do you qualify this? Go back to the start and read this thread again.
> 
> As a first year hop grower yourself have you done this experiment already? If so post your results, if not then piss off till you do have something of value to add..
> 
> ...




I'm merely making a comment in terms of overall plant size Yob. The bines carry the cones, and the more bine yardage you have the greater the yield. 
I don't recommend limiting the number of bines especially in the early years as pruning the top restricts the plants roots from growing. Tip pruning may have benefits for management but I very much doubt you'll see a yield increase. You won't compensate for your inability to grow hops by tip pruning Yob.  
The following is a picture of my POR. I grew it from a 3mm thick by 5cm bit of rhizome, and even that was a bit iffy as it came from a rotten dead whole rhizome crown which had been left out on the ground over winter. I recon I really grew it from one bud. It had a very tentative start and almost didn't make it. 
Ended up yielding 900+ grams wet.


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## Bongchitis (30/7/12)

hoppy2B said:


> I'm merely making a comment in terms of overall plant size Yob. The bines carry the cones, and the more bine yardage you have the greater the yield.
> I don't recommend limiting the number of bines especially in the early years as pruning the top restricts the plants roots from growing. Tip pruning may have benefits for management but I very much doubt you'll see a yield increase. You won't compensate for your inability to grow hops by tip pruning Yob.
> The following is a picture of my POR. I grew it from a 3mm thick by 5cm bit of rhizome, and even that was a bit iffy as it came from a rotten dead whole rhizome crown which had been left out on the ground over winter. I recon I really grew it from one bud. It had a very tentative start and almost didn't make it.
> Ended up yielding 900+ grams wet.



Wow! No wonder it grew so well..... Look how well you have strung it up. Looks fantastic.

"The more bine yardage the greater the yield"...... I agree. I reckon that if you take a bine that has the potential to grow say 5m and tip it then you get 2-4 growth tips that in total will produce way more than 5m growth. It may not be quite as vigorous as the 1 big bine and you wont get the really big cones but you will get many more average sized cones that are closer to the ground... thats the theory anyway.

Will this result in overall yield increase? Dunno. Does it work on other plants? Hell Yes.


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## Bongchitis (30/7/12)

iamozziyob said:


> Ha! I wonder how the new tenants/owners are going with the yard full of hops? You should swing by at harvest time with a few beers and a garbage bag or three..
> 
> Yon
> 
> Ed.. Phucking phone




Haha, the owner is my father in law and I would not buy him a warm can of VB on a really hot day.  

Hes no gardener and the hops perished long ago. 

He also doesnt like anything I brew as it has too much flavour. <_< 

He also doesn't like the fact that I give his daughter a good going over on a regular basis h34r:


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## Yob (30/7/12)

Bongchitis said:


> Haha, the owner is my father in law and I would not buy him a warm can of VB on a really hot day.
> 
> Hes no gardener and the hops perished long ago.
> 
> ...




Photo's? :lol:


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## hoppy2B (30/7/12)

Bongchitis said:


> Wow! No wonder it grew so well..... Look how well you have strung it up. Looks fantastic.




I think that POR yielded really late because of its slow start. Tip pruning may have given a higher yield if done at the right time. Rather than bunches of cones I just got single cones at the leaf axils mostly.
One thing I did notice with any tips that snapped off was that it just generally delayed them. Rather than bushing out new tips just started growing out from where it had been tipped.
I don't want to be negative and say that tipping doesn't work because I have considered it and it may have a place, but it doesn't seem like a magic bullet from what I've seen, particularly with some varieties.


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## Yob (17/12/12)

A few weeks ago I had a new roof put on the shed/brewery.. the builders naturally crushed the shit out my fuggles/POR and Tett.. the poor thing (fuggles) was decimated and hasnt really been that happy.. anyways, one of the bines that had the growing tip murdered has since sprouted from the laterals and seems to be reaching for the sky again.. only this time with 2 tips 




Bless it, anyway, will be keen to see how it goes over the next few months..

Ive tipped a couple of other bines as well, mostly on the Chinook, so I now have bines at various heights (on the same plant) so I can compare the growth.




:icon_cheers:


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## Yob (21/12/13)

Firstly. sorry for the lighting, its a pretty poor day to be taking photos.




The above photo shows a bine that was snapped off in the wind (left) its showing an increase of lateral growth to that of 2 un tipped bines on the right, as the cones develop on the laterals and not the main growing bine its assumed that there will be greater opportunity for cone development.




Anecdotally, my Chinook sort of folded down on itself and then grew back up its own bine is exhibiting similar lateral growth and has in fact started to give a few burrs,

There are 3 plants I have that are all showing that either tipping or tying down the growth tip will promote the growth of the laterals.

Yeild from the bines will be the interesting thing to observe in a month or two.


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## Hippy (21/12/13)

A timely reminder yob.
My bines are starting to reach the top of my trellises so I think I will tip to encourage lateral growth.


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## Yob (21/12/13)

Once they get some length over the top and start to fall a bit, I reckon they could easily be tied back to themselves, less damage than 'tipping' them and can get more laterals as the tip continues to grow. 

The Caterbury Goldings I have at the front of the house, reached the top and went under the eaves is exhibiting the same pattern.







I think I mentioned this in the past somewhere, there is an enzyme in the growing tip of this genus (well at least it's cousin) that inhibits the growth below it, tying down or tipping reduces the effectiveness of this enzyme allowing the development of laterals or secondary growth.

As I say though, all this is still kind of anecdotal evidence but certainly seems to be common across multiple plants with the same result.

:icon_cheers:


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