# Use 2 Salfager W-34/70 Yeast Packets Or One?



## andreic (1/6/06)

Hi all,

I see some people talk about using 2 saflager yeast packets instead of one when putting down their brews. I have just bought 2 ESB 3kg tins - a Czech Pilsener and a Bavarian Bock. I guess I have 2 options:

1. Brew each kit with its own saflager yeast packet

or

2. Brew the pilsener using 2 saflager yeast packets and chuck the bock onto the yeast cake when the pilsener is finished

So, what's the best approach and why?

I have a "beer fridge" now and some jerry cans so I am keen to try and "lager" some beers in the fridge this winter. I feel the temperatures have dropped enough in Sydney for me to keep my brews at lager temps with my low-tech temperatrure control methods so this might be the first of a few questions on lager brewing....

cheers,

Andrei

p.s. tip on how to get a new "beer fridge" - keep putting more and more "beer stuff" in the fridge and freezer. Eventually the mrs will rightly say "I think we need a bigger fridge - there's too much of your beer stuff in this one". Done! :chug:


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## goatherder (1/6/06)

I've read that a lager will require twice the pitch of an ale to properly ferment - hence the two packets of saf. Have a go at the yeast pitching calculator on http://mrmalty.com. There's also an pretty good explanation of the why. The safe route would be option 1, but who knows, option 2 might turn out a cracker...

I hope you don't mind if I pinch your beer fridge idea. I'm gunna give that a try...


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## matti (1/6/06)

Safest option! dehydrate each with 100g DME and cooled 1ltr boiled water 12-24h prior to brewday in airlocked containers. Pitch on brewday with some splashing around for oxygen. Should take off after the initial inverted pressure of cooling down in 12-16 hours. Next day 16+ degrees bubble like gocrazy
Mati


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## Voosher (1/6/06)

Lagers generally require double the pitching rate of ales, assuming you pitch at fermenting temps.
Dry pitching rates are generally 0.5g yeast per litre wort for ales, 1g/l for lagers.
You can pitch lagers at ale temps as long as you can cool the wort to lager fermenting temps within 12-24hrs so you can also use 0.5g/l for lager yeasts if you pitch at around 20C and then cool to lager fermenting temps.
Generally I believe that lager lovers prefer to pitch the appropriate rate for cool fermenting the whole way through.
I've done the warm pitch and cool method generally. I don't think it produces as clean a finish as you normally expect from lagers.


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## T.D. (2/6/06)

I once tried fermenting a beer with 1 sachet of 34/70, just to see whether pitching twice the quantity of yeast is really required for a leger. After a few days of very little activity I decided to pitch a second sachet. It took off nicely after that. Since then its been 2 sachets or nothing.

As Voosher mentioned, you also have the option of pitching one sachet at ale temps and then cooling to lager temps. Of course, the effectiveness of this depends on what your ambient temps are! A mate of mine in Canberra would almost definitely not be able to do this - the other day he poured a cube of wort that was just sitting in his garage (no chiller) into the fermenter and it was 12 degrees anyway!


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## bkmad (2/6/06)

I put on a pilsner over the weekend and pitched in the evening at around 20 degrees with only 1 sachet of 34/70, by morning it was happily bubbling away at around 15 degrees and I've managed to keep it at 12 degrees since by putting it in a 100 can cooler thingy with a few frozen PET bottles. I'm not saying that you should go the 1 sachet route, but if you decide to go this way it will work, just pitch at a higher temp to get it going.

Cheers
BK


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## T.D. (2/6/06)

But make sure you remember to do a diacetyl rest...


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## andreic (2/6/06)

thanks for all the replies!

My temp control method is putting the fermenter in a closed wooden box in the outside storage area and put 2l milk bottles with frozen water around. It will be easier for me to pitch at lager temperatures and keep it there rather than pitch at ale temps and bring it down. I have some previously boiled water in my "beer fridge" so I can hit the lager temps with a mix of that and tap water before pitching.

So, I think I will go with the 2 packet approach!

OK, so now my next problem... If I rehydrate the yeast, do I need to try and rehydrate at the same lager temp? If I rehydrate at too high a temp or too low and then pitch onto the lager temp wort is this what causes "thermal shock"?



> But make sure you remember to do a diacetyl rest...



I have a light globe underneath the fermenter which I will turn on at the end to raise the temp to 20C or so for 1 or 2 days before putting it in the jerry can and into the "beer fridge". Is this the right approach?

cheers,

Andrei


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## T.D. (2/6/06)

andreic said:


> I have a light globe underneath the fermenter which I will turn on at the end to raise the temp to 20C or so for 1 or 2 days before putting it in the jerry can and into the "beer fridge". Is this the right approach?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Andrei



That should do the trick!

Edit: I was under the impression that if you pitch and ferment at lager temps you don't need a diacetyl rest. I certainly haven't used them for any lagers that I have pitched at low temps, and I don't deterct any diacetyl. I think John Palmer (How to Brew) discusses the issue.


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## Trough Lolly (2/6/06)

andreic said:


> ...snip...
> 
> I guess I have 2 options:
> 
> ...


I'd select option 2 - with a twist! I'd put the saflager yeast in a starter before brewday to (1) check the viability of the yeast and (2) build up the populuation even further, to give a viable, healthy and decent sized quantity of yeast to the wort.
Dry yeast can, of course, be pitched directly into the wort and you don't have to make a starter, but I prefer to have the yeast active and at a similar temp to the wort at pitching time.


> I was under the impression that if you pitch and ferment at lager temps you don't need a diacetyl rest. I certainly haven't used them for any lagers that I have pitched at low temps, and I don't deterct any diacetyl.


There are lots of posts on this forum regarding diacetyl, including a beergeek mode blurb I made on a different thread some time ago...here - if you're interested...
Diacetyl levels vary between the different strains of yeast - you may have avoided the presence of diacetyl by simply avoiding the generation of diacetyl precursors with your brewing technique...
Cheers,
TL


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## shmick (2/6/06)

andreic said:


> OK, so now my next problem... If I rehydrate the yeast, do I need to try and rehydrate at the same lager temp? If I rehydrate at too high a temp or too low and then pitch onto the lager temp wort is this what causes "thermal shock"?



Check on the yeast manuf web site - IIRC they give detailed instructions.

link

If it's not in the homebrewers section it may be in the professional/bulk pack area.

The water should be around 23degC (double check this) for rehydration as the process is most efficient in this range ensuring the most number of viable cells. The qty of water they recommend results in a paste also - little hard to manage on a small scale.

I used to rehydrate then slowly chill down to wort temp.
I've also tried adding small amounts of wort over set times to acclimatise the yeast to the pH levels. Purists may disagree but could never tell the difference. 

I usually just make up a starter now - at least you can be sure it's firing before pitching. :chug:

Edit: changed recommended temp - don't wan't them all sweaty do we.


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## T.D. (2/6/06)

Trough Lolly said:


> Diacetyl levels vary between the different strains of yeast - you may have avoided the presence of diacetyl by simply avoiding the generation of diacetyl precursors with your brewing technique...
> Cheers,
> TL



TL,

So is the likelihood of getting diacetyl the same regardless of the temperature at which you pitch the yeast?


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## Stuster (2/6/06)

Apparently the water should be 35-40C for best results. Have a look here, second question. The yeast should be at room temp. Add to wort within half an hour of rehydrating.


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## wessmith (2/6/06)

Stuster and others, be careful when looking at articles about rehdration. Make sure you are reading apples for apples. Dr Clayton Cone is talking specifically about Danstar dry yeast by Lallemand (Nottingham is one of their brands). Their rehydration temps and instructions are quite different to Fermentis. I cant stress enough that you should get the correct instructions from the respective yeast manufacturers websites.

Wes


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## colinw (2/6/06)

I can confirm what wes said, having applied Danstar instructions to a DCL K-97 and achieved a very poor fermentation.

I've actually given up on rehydration for normal ale yeasts like Safale and Nottingham. I just rehydrate the crap out of the wort with my power drill and spoon aerator (tm), then sprinkle the yeast on the foam and leave it to work its own way down to the wort. Goes off like a rocket.

Don't try dry pitching with a lager 'though.


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## Stuster (2/6/06)

Whoops. Thanks for that, Wes.


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## Ross (2/6/06)

Stuster said:


> Whoops. Thanks for that, Wes.



Stuster - Proper rehydration methods for the respective dried yeasts available off the CrafBrewer site if it helps...


cheers Ross


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## monkale (2/6/06)

Colinw Iv got a k-97 at the moment in an extract brew rehydrated pitched 3days ago just got airlock activity today but very slow <_< any one got any ideas to get it up and runnig maybe pitch in another one
or give it a bit of a shake



Cheers Monkale


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## colinw (2/6/06)

monkale said:


> Colinw Iv got a k-97 at the moment in an extract brew rehydrated pitched 3days ago just got airlock activity today but very slow <_< any one got any ideas to get it up and runnig maybe pitch in another one
> or give it a bit of a shake


That sounds very similar to what I experienced when I botched a K-97 rehydration. It formed a giant floating raft of yeast which just sat there doing sod all.

After a couple of days I threw in a US-56, which fermented the beer out very nicely (won its class in last year's club annual comp, so no harm done).


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## monkale (2/6/06)

Thanks colin
Ill give that a shot cant hurt its just about asleep now need to do something to stir it in to life,One burp every 20mins :blink: 



Cheers Monkale :beer:


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## andreic (5/6/06)

OK, just following up... here's what I did on Friday night.

1. Rehydrated 2 x 11.5g W-34/70 dried yeast in cooled boiled water (around room temp)
2. mixed up 3kg tin, boiling water, then tap water and chilled, pre-boiled water in fermenter with much splashing in an attempt to airate. Temp=18C
3. After 30 minutes, chucked rehydrated yeast into ferementer and mixed around.
4. Put fermenter in wooden box with some ice blocks around to cool it down overnight to lager temps.

And here's the result since

Saturday morning - temp = 10C, no airlock action
Sunday morning - temp = 12C, +ve pressure in airlock
Sunday night - temp = 11C, very very slow bubbling through airlock
Monday - temp = 11C, away she goes... constant (but not overly violent) airlock action

It started off pretty slow but seems to be doing the job now... does this seem like a normal start for a lager? Most of my ales get going within a day


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## Steve (6/6/06)

Colinw
Just interested when you said:

Don't try dry pitching with a lager 'though.

whys that?

Reason I ask is I do and dont seem to have any dramas? I too have done the same brew that andreic has just put down (ESB Chzech Pilsener). I dry pitch with one packet of W34/70 at ale temps then drop it down to 12 degrees for 10 days, rest for 2 days, rack and cc for 2 weeks at 2 degrees. They turn out great? I think?

Cheers
Steve


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## T.D. (6/6/06)

Andreic, 

Yeah, that sounds like a pretty typical start to fermentation to me. Its pretty muchy what my lagers do each time anyway!

Steve, I have also always pitched lager yeast dry and have never had any problems. I'd be interested in the answer to your question too...


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## Ross (6/6/06)

andreic said:


> It started off pretty slow but seems to be doing the job now... does this seem like a normal start for a lager? Most of my ales get going within a day



All appears normal to me...

cheers Ross


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