# Braumeister step mashes?



## minimalizarte (1/6/13)

Hey all,

Since a lot of you have experience with the brewmeister, I was wondering if you had any tips for the mash program for the machine? I'm going to be working with a 200 liter machine and it's gonna be my first. The introductory guide puts down that the mash program should be:

TEMP: 52 - 63 - 73 - 78
TIME: 10 - 35 - 35 - 10


I don't really trust the guys who write guides though, and thought that an additional mash step at 68 would help with the body of the beer. The majority of my beers have been single infusion mashes, so I was thinking along the lines of:

TEMP: 52 - 63 - 68 - 72 - 78
TIME: 10 - 35 - 30 - 15 - 10


Since I'd be brewing American pale ales, amber ales, and IPAs, I figured this kind of step mash would give a good amount of body. But I wanted to know what you think.

If you have any advice, let me know.


----------



## Howlingdog (1/6/13)

You're the first person I've heard of with a 200 litre BM. I suppose you'll have to suck it and see. The first time I used my 20 litre BM I followed the manual to the letter and it was just as they said. 200 litres is a lot to lose though if you deviate from the start. However, it would appear that you want to go your own way straight up. Your call.

HD


----------



## minimalizarte (2/6/13)

The thing is, I've tried 5.5% brews that were made using the guide's mash temps and felt that they severely lacked body. This could be for a variety of reasons, but the mash steps seemed like the main cause.

I'd only really be programming an additional step and reducing the 72 degree step to farmhouse and ipa recipe times.


----------



## DeGarre (2/6/13)

To be honest, I really can't see much of a difference in the end result whether I just mash in at 45 and held it at 65 or have a convoluted 5 stage schedule. But I mix it up across styles like Belgian ale and hefeweizen - just because I can with BM.


----------



## minimalizarte (2/6/13)

So in general, you feel that varying the mash steps doesn't do much to change the character of the beer with the braumeister?


----------



## GuyQLD (2/6/13)

To be honest I think it would be grist specific. 52'C is right in protein rest country and may do more damage than good if your grain bill is moderately - highly modified malts. What malts are you using? If you aren't using a fair whack of german malts or high protein malts that are under modified I'd consider either moving the 52'C to 55+ or removing it altogether. If you're using something like 100% Marris Otter (lower protein and highly modified) then it's actually going to be detrimental to use the 52'C rest. 

The hochkurz mash schedule, 62'C:40mins, 68'C/72'C:40mins, 75'C+ Mashout is becoming quite popular with modern malts and should achieve what you want. Would be a breeze in the BM.


----------



## minimalizarte (2/6/13)

I'm using pilsner malt mostly with some additional crystals


----------



## QldKev (2/6/13)

With ANY malt I would not get rid of that protein rest. You're only running a 10min step so looks ok to me.

I've never read one of their guides, so cannot comment, but I would not use that mash schedule for the beers you want. All beer styles needs a different schedule. ok, maybe not all, but you get the idea, that there is not a one schedule that fits all when step mashing.

Since you want more body, from the APA/IPA styles I would try

55c/5min, 65c/45min, 72c/25min, 77c/10min. 
I think this will put you into the ball park of what you are chasing.


----------



## minimalizarte (2/6/13)

Ok cool. Those look pretty good and I will probably program one of the two. But tell me, would there be a fundamental difference between the two? 

TEMP: 55 / 62 / 68 / 77
TIME: 5 / 40 / 40 / 10

TEMP: 55 / 65 / 72 / 77
TIME: 5 / 40 / 25 / 10

Does the 72 degree rest do the same thing as the 68 rest, but faster?


----------



## minimalizarte (2/6/13)

I ask mainly because for the last couple years I've been doing single step infusion mashes at 68, and have gotten beers with a good amount of body with a dry finish.


----------



## Dan Pratt (2/6/13)

Im about to give you heads up, but dont take it personally. 

If you have access to or have bought a 200lt BM and you dont understand what temps do what to your beer then you are out of your depth.

Please read from this website http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Braukaiser.com and then maybe the Alamanac of Beer Brewing and you should then be able to mash grain knowing what each temp does or doesnt do to your final beer.

Seriously, no offence intended just got very bothered from reading this.


----------



## minimalizarte (2/6/13)

Pratty, one thing is knowing what they do and another is learning from experience. Books can only tell you so much; I know the theory behind the temperatures but have yet to experience the differences in taste and body with this specific machine. With my other kettles I originally started out doing step mashes before and switched to single step infusions mainly because they saved time and the quality was consistently good.

I have met plenty of people who use BMs and do a three step infusion (55, 68, 78). Other people I know tell me that the temps aren't an issue with the BM, that whatever the guide says is good enough. I disagree simply because the taste doesn't correspond with my experience, the temperatures don't really match with my experiences, and I was looking to compliment the existing guidelines with a step that could enhance the body. If other people have different advice, I'm glad to hear it and willing to try it out so that I can learn from the experience.

Telling me that I'm out of my depth when I'm using a machine that dummies could brew beer with - simply because I want to learn the technical differences between a step at 68 degrees for 40 minutes and a different one at 72 degrees for 25 minutes - doesn't exactly help. I appreciate the honesty of your opinion, but what I want to know pertains to a technical detail which isn't available in the dozens of brewing books I have gone through.


----------



## minimalizarte (2/6/13)

And to give you an example of something that can't be learned from the books, look at the example of the "no chill" method. Just about every single resource out there will tell you that you need to chill your wort as quickly as possible to have a clearer beer, avoid DMS, and avoid bacterial infection.

Closing the wort in a hermetically sealed container and leaving it to chill overnight goes against all of that advice, yet it works perfectly. I've been using the no chill method for over a year, and as long as the sealed container is properly cleaned and I do a ninety minute boil, neither DMS nor infection is an issue.


----------



## Dan Pratt (2/6/13)

fair call minimalizarte,i get where your coming from. Ive tried all kinds of mashes with the BM but I felt a little peeved that you went large on equipment by buying a 200lt and didnt know the difference, Trial and error is one thing, but at that scale, getting it wrong can be costly... my bad. 


Let me share with you something about mashing temps.






Im still trying to figure out the best mash profile for the beer I make but one thing I do know is...when mashing low - 55 - 64 it will create alot of fermentable's = lighter body / higher attenuation ( depending on yeast still ) and mashing higher with temps 67 - 74 will create alot of unfermentables = fuller body and lower attenuations. So to get more body, ferment higher eg 68 and then at 72 you will create alot of unfermentable chains that will remain in the beer making it full. 

When i make a full body beer, I still mash at 50c, 62c for only 10 mins, then i go 68c for 45 and 72c for 20 mins, sometimes skipping 72 and mashout and mashing at 74c for 30 mins. They will all make good/great beer.

Can I just ask, why didnt you learn this from brewing on a 20 or 50lt before upscaling?


----------



## minimalizarte (2/6/13)

Those temps more or less correspond with what I am familiar with and have experienced. I have always had good beer mashing at 68.

I am working with a 200 liter machine more out of serendipity than anything else. Some friends have opened a brewery and are having a tough time making good beer. They really like my beer and since I've been brewing for a few years, they asked me if I would like to be the brewer.


----------



## pommiebloke (2/6/13)

minimalizarte said:


> Some friends have opened a brewery and are having a tough time making good beer. They really like my beer and since I've been brewing for a few years, they asked me if I would like to be the brewer.


WTF? They opened a brewery and are having a tough time making good beer!?

Maybe they should have learned to brew BEFORE they opened a brewery. :unsure:


----------



## doon (2/6/13)

What country is OP in?


----------



## minimalizarte (2/6/13)

@pommie My opinion exactly. They hadnt brewed a batch in their lives until a month ago. I went the other way and have been improving my brewing skills over the last three years - I was going to open up a nanobrewery using blichmann kettles next year. These guys went and bought a whole set up, and are way in over their heads. If it all works out, I will have saved a fortune.

@doon Spain.


----------



## minimalizarte (3/6/13)

Okay, back to the OT. So now we have two contenders:


Mash suggestion A:

TEMP: 55 / 65 / 72 / 77
TIME: 5 / 40 / 25 / 10 


Mash suggestion B:

TEMP: 50 / 62 / 68 / 72 / 74
TIME: 5 / 10 / 45 / 20 / 20


I liked the hochkurtz suggestion, but will have to save that for a lighter ale or wheat. The mash suggestion B is closer to what I had originally proposed in that it favors the formation of unfermentable sugars to get a bigger body. Anybody favor one or the other?


----------



## QldKev (3/6/13)

minimalizarte said:


> Ok cool. Those look pretty good and I will probably program one of the two. But tell me, would there be a fundamental difference between the two?
> 
> TEMP: 55 / 62 / 68 / 77
> TIME: 5 / 40 / 40 / 10
> ...


Check out step 2. Both are 40min, but one is 62 and the other is 65. 
At 40mins the bulk of the starch conversion will get completed.
62c is favoring a dryer/thinner beer
65c is getting you up into a mix of Beta and Alpha amylase conversion for a balanced beer. (66 is the magic all round number, if you were not doing another step)
So the second will result in the thicker beer.

Then step 3.
68c Beta amylase will still be fairly active, continuing the short chain sugars that produce your thin beer. But Alpha will be kicking up a lot.
72c Beta amylase are denatured. So only the long sugars (thicker beer) are being produced by the Alpha boys.

The 2 beers would obviously be very different.

QldKev


----------



## QldKev (3/6/13)

minimalizarte said:


> Okay, back to the OT. So now we have two contenders:
> 
> 
> Mash suggestion A:
> ...


Ref last response for Mash suggestion A. It's the one I suggested so it's my pick based on what you have asked for.

Mash Suggestion B
Seems just like someones thrown some random numbers on the table and is over-complicating things. While it would produce beer, that is in character for what you want it doesn;t specifically target Beta and Alpha amylase.
Step 1 50 vs 55. Both will work but protein rests of 50 Vs 52 Vs 55 is a discussion in itself. I have experimented and with well modified malts I use 55c.
Step 2, 10 mins at 62c will kick of a good hit of Beta amylase conversion, but it's not that long to get the bulk of work done.
Step 3. will convert the bulk of the starch at this step favoring Alpha so a thick beer that would favor an English mild style, but it's just not APA grounds anymore.
Step 4. 72 is pure Alpha so thickening it up even more.
Step 5. 74. WTF even more Alpha targeting? why is this step doing that the 72 didn't. Why not just extend 72?
Why is there no mash out at 77/78c ?
The body of the beer this would produce would not normally suit an APA.


----------



## Dan Pratt (3/6/13)

Thats was me QLDKev, I suggested that I sometimes skip the 72c and 78c mashout and shoot straight from 68c to 74c rest.

mash at 68c/45mins, 72c/20mins and then mashout at 78c for 15mins would get a good full body beer.

unreal that someone has started a brewery without before brewing beer.... :huh:

OP now has a new job - head brewer, best of luck with it.


----------



## minimalizarte (3/6/13)

Thanks you guys. These posts are really helpful. 

Like I said before, I understand what each rest does, but obviously there are slight differences between the available mash steps out there. The extra info behind those changes will help me identify the subtleties in the beer. You guys have been great!

And let me say this: these guys arent the only ones in the area to open up a brewery without knowing how to brew. I met a couple who has never made a batch in their lives who is going to try their hand at lager. They told me that beer only takes 3 days to ferment. We had a long talk, but they left feeling pretty sure that it takes 2 to 3 days to ferment a lager.


----------



## QldKev (3/6/13)

Pratty1 said:


> Thats was me QLDKev, I suggested that I sometimes skip the 72c and 78c mashout and shoot straight from 68c to 74c rest.
> 
> mash at 68c/45mins, 72c/20mins and then mashout at 78c for 15mins would get a good full body beer.
> 
> ...


I put my foot in that one. :huh:


To the OP, if you get a change try both mash schedules out. You may prefer the full on high temp mash as proposed by Pratty1. At the end of the day, it's all brewing and personal preference from here.


----------



## minimalizarte (3/6/13)

Thanks QldKev. I will probably try both out. If you've ever had Spanish beer, and especially Spanish craft beer, you'll know how disappointing it can be. Since I'm from San Francisco, I've had the luxury of drinking Anchor all my life. Hopefully I'll be able to bring something good to the table.


----------



## manticle (3/6/13)

I sit somewhere between Kev and pratty.

If you want more body in the beer then shorten the rest in the low 60s to 10-15 mins, then bump to 68 for 45 then hit 72 for 10. A 40 minute rest in the low 60s won't leave much starch to get turned into dextrins - they don't reform from shorter chain sugars even if the temperature is right.

72 is not only alpha-amylase, it also favours the formation of glycoproteins which aid head retention. A short (5 minute) rest at 55 and a 10 minute rest at 72 work well to create a tight, well formed, stable head.

So my vote would be TEMP: 55/62/68/72/78
TIME: 5/10/45/10/10

Alternatively 62 for 15, 70 for 50 then 78 for 10 if you think it's too complex (although it sounds as if programming the brau is pretty simple)

Definitely no need to go from 72 -74.


----------



## squirt in the turns (3/6/13)

Coming back to Pratty's scan of the Ultimate Almanac table (great resource, BTW, thanks!), what exactly is "gum" and what does beta-glucanase convert it to?


----------



## QldKev (4/6/13)

Probably getting a little bit off topic...

Can the Brau system be set to have a slow ramp rate? It's something I'm going to play with once I finish my control panel build as I will be including a ramp pid.

So the idea say for a beer style as above

55 for 5min
Ramp to 62
62 for 15min
Ramp from 62 to 72 over 30 mins. * So you are getting about 3 minutes at each step temp, we could even try 40mins to slow it a bit more
72 for 15min
Ramp to Mash out etc..

Looking at the schedule it may be a bit thinner than the OP wants, but the idea is bulk of the conversion is on the fly.


----------



## Florian (4/6/13)

QldKev said:


> Probably getting a little bit off topic...
> 
> Can the Brau system be set to have a slow ramp rate? It's something I'm going to play with once I finish my control panel build as I will be including a ramp pid.
> 
> ...


no, unfortunately it hasn't, I always wished it gave more freedom in programming. 

It has five steps max, that's it. No going backwards in temps either, which means you can't set your strike temp above rest temp. 

An optional fifty steps would be great, although probably way more than needed by most.


----------



## verysupple (4/6/13)

minimalizarte said:


> Pratty, one thing is knowing what they do and another is learning from experience. Books can only tell you so much; I know the theory behind the temperatures but have yet to experience the differences in taste and body with this specific machine. With my other kettles I originally started out doing step mashes before and switched to single step infusions mainly because they saved time and the quality was consistently good.
> 
> I have met plenty of people who use BMs and do a three step infusion (55, 68, 78). Other people I know tell me that the temps aren't an issue with the BM, that whatever the guide says is good enough. I disagree simply because the taste doesn't correspond with my experience, the temperatures don't really match with my experiences, and I was looking to compliment the existing guidelines with a step that could enhance the body. If other people have different advice, I'm glad to hear it and willing to try it out so that I can learn from the experience.
> 
> Telling me that I'm out of my depth when I'm using a machine that dummies could brew beer with - simply because I want to learn the technical differences between a step at 68 degrees for 40 minutes and a different one at 72 degrees for 25 minutes - doesn't exactly help. I appreciate the honesty of your opinion, but what I want to know pertains to a technical detail which isn't available in the dozens of brewing books I have gone through.


If you're so intent on learning from experience instead of books (which were written based on other people's experiences ), why don't you just try both schedules and _learn from the experience_?


----------



## manticle (4/6/13)

Presumably because the batch size is so large.

Minimalartze - this does raise a good point. It might be worthwhile getting your friends to invest in a 20 or 50 L so you can brew pilot batches. It will save them cash in the long run.


----------



## bum (4/6/13)

Whereas employing a brewer might make them cash in the long run.


----------



## manticle (4/6/13)

That's step 2.


----------



## Mr. No-Tip (4/6/13)

Florian said:


> no, unfortunately it hasn't, I always wished it gave more freedom in programming.
> 
> It has five steps max, that's it. No going backwards in temps either, which means you can't set your strike temp above rest temp.
> 
> An optional fifty steps would be great, although probably way more than needed by most.


It smacks of effort, but there's no reason you couldn't mash in manual mode to achieve this.


----------



## minimalizarte (4/6/13)

@Bum HA, if only there were decent brewers in Spain. Plus money is a factor.

@Manticle & verysupple I have a kettle at home for these purposes, but we dont have a lot of time to throw this all together. We need a beer for july. For other recipes, I will do prototypes first. But in this case it's crash course brewing.


----------



## minimalizarte (4/6/13)

Also wanted to know your opinion about this: these guys - the last time they brewed with their brewing "consultant" (who since has been fired) - got a brewhouse efficiency of 63 percent for an APA... I tried the beer and it really didnt have much body to it at all. The beer itself used 44 kilos of malt and 175 liters went into the fermenters with a reading of 1.047... Correct me if I am wrong, but this is an abysmal efficiency right?


----------

