# Alternative To Carafa 2.



## Truman42 (13/12/12)

Im brewing a Black IPA. The first recipe Ive ever repeated because it was bloody good the first time around. However my LHBS does not have Carafa 2. I was wondering what a suitable alternative would be?

He said Caramalt but when I check the EBC of Carafa 2 its 1100-1200 EBC and Caramalt is only 40-60 so my black IPA is going to be a brown IPA. Any other suggestions to sub for the Carafa 2?

Here is the grain bill

Scrumpys black IPA


Recipe Specs
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Batch Size (L): 25.0
Total Grain (kg): 6.811
Total Hops (g): 129.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.060 (P): 14.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.015 (P): 3.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.89 %
Colour (SRM): 25.4 (EBC): 50.0
Bitterness (IBU): 55.9 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 72
Boil Time (Minutes): 75

Grain Bill
----------------
5.313 kg Pilsner (78%)
0.409 kg Biscuit (6%)
0.409 kg Wheat Malt, Dark (6%)
0.272 kg Crystal 30 (4%)
0.204 kg Carafa II malt (3%)
0.204 kg Chocolate (3%)


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## Nick JD (13/12/12)

Carafa 1, or carafa 3. 

EDIT: but seriously - the thing about the carafas is they are burnt to a crisp without their skins on. That's key in finding their replacement.


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## wessmith (13/12/12)

Roast malt preferably or roasted barley.

Wes


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## Rowy (13/12/12)

Pale choc will give you your colour without being too acrid. Work out a mix between it and a crystal and back off on your standard chocolate at the same time...... To be honest the Carafa will be very hard to replace. I use it heaps and in my humble opinion it adds quite unique characters to dark beers that nothign else matches.


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## RdeVjun (13/12/12)

If that's really the best they can do for advice or stock then FFS find a new LHBS or your black IPA will be just a nasty skid mark on your brewing experience instead of the classy burnout evidently expected. You only need to look up the top of this very window but remember too that spec malts do a lot more than just colour.


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## Sammus (13/12/12)

Nick JD said:


> Carafa 1, or carafa 3.
> 
> EDIT: but seriously - the thing about the carafas is they are burnt to a crisp without their skins on. That's key in finding their replacement.



Pretty sure the dehusked version is called "carafa special" Regular carafa is just like any roast malt.


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## Kai (13/12/12)

Roasted wheat is a good replacement if you can find it. Briess Midnight wheat seems to be reasonably readily available over here now. Getting a bit (but not a lot) of colour from your crystal malts also helps well in a black IPA. 

Alternatively, if you can find some Sinamar (brewing colourant made by Weyermann) it would provide an excellent substitute for Carafa Special II. 

And I'd be worried about any home brew shop person who told me to sub caramalt for carafa.


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## Rowy (13/12/12)

Sammus said:


> Pretty sure the dehusked version is called "carafa special" Regular carafa is just like any roast malt.



Stand to be corrected but all the Carafa's are dehusked.


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## Sammus (13/12/12)

Rowy said:


> Stand to be corrected but all the Carafa's are dehusked.



nope, thats why they have one called "carafa special" and label it as their "unique dehusked roasted barley" http://www.weyermann.de/eng/produkte.asp?i...0&sprache=2


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## black_labb (13/12/12)

carafa special is a dehusked (heavily) roasted malt. Using a roasted huskless grain is a good option like choc rye or midnight wheat. I did a great black IPA with the choc rye, though of course it won't be the same (and you will need more for the same amount of colour)

I've also heard of people cold steeping black grain for colour without extracting much of the acrid flavour. This could be another option.

I hope that there was some sort of misunderstanding when you were reccomended caramalt as a substitute.


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## manticle (13/12/12)

Truman said:


> Im brewing a Black IPA. The first recipe Ive ever repeated because it was bloody good the first time around. However my LHBS does not have Carafa 2. I was wondering what a suitable alternative would be?



Order the grain you want from a place that does stock it.

Caramalt in place of a roast? Really?

Find a new HBS or at the very least question why they would offer up such a silly recommendation. Is it because they both have the prefix 'cara'? Does the HBS have any experience of carafa or carafa special at all or are they just making shit up?


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## Rowy (13/12/12)

Sammus said:


> nope, thats why they have one called "carafa special" and label it as their "unique dehusked roasted barley" http://www.weyermann.de/eng/produkte.asp?i...0&sprache=2




I use the CB site and product. On reading properly they are all called Carafa Dpecial T1, 2 & 3. My blue Sammus the Specials are the ones I was referring to.


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## Midnight Brew (13/12/12)

I may or may not have some carafa special II on hand that I wont be using anytime soon that you can have. I'll have to check the stocks but might have around 200grams. Im in Croydon.


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## Sammus (13/12/12)

Rowy said:


> I use the CB site and product. On reading properly they are all called Carafa Dpecial T1, 2 & 3. My blue Sammus the Specials are the ones I was referring to.



Fair call, dunno why anyone would use or stock anything else


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## Thefatdoghead (13/12/12)

Just cold steep some black malt or roast barley and you won't notice the difference. I did heaps of roast barley in a IIPA recently because I wanted roastyness but there was none at all. Maybe masked by the hops but still....


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## Truman42 (13/12/12)

Thanks for the advice guys (and the offer of some carafa 2 midnight brew, much appreciated), but G&G seem to have it so I will order it all from there.

I did send a reply asking why Caramalt when the EBC is 40-60 compared to 1100-1200 of the Carafa 2. Maybe he made a mistake because he actually said they have the same EBC when clearly they dont.


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## Helles (13/12/12)

Roast Malt / Roasted barley added to mash @ mash out will give colour but no flavour
I also read somewhere about boiling Roast malt/Roasted barley for the same result
Maybe in a hop sock or something until you get colour your'e after


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## Truman42 (14/12/12)

manticle said:


> Order the grain you want from a place that does stock it.
> 
> Caramalt in place of a roast? Really?
> 
> Find a new HBS or at the very least question why they would offer up such a silly recommendation. Is it because they both have the prefix 'cara'? Does the HBS have any experience of carafa or carafa special at all or are they just making shit up?



I received an email back last night from the LHBS saying that he had made a mistake and suggested roasted malt and a few others as suggested here.

But As Rowy said Carafa will add unique characters to the beer that cant be replaced, so with that Ill stick to Carafa 2 and get it from G&G. Im still learning about all the different grain types and what adds what, so thanks very much for the help.


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## bignath (14/12/12)

slightly off topic..

Isn't Caramalt just an "umbrella" term for all of the Crystal Malts? or i have i got that wrong.


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## punkin (14/12/12)

Midnight wheat works really well if you find yourself stuck again.


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## razz (14/12/12)

helles said:


> Roast Malt / Roasted barley added to mash @ mash out will give colour but no flavour
> I also read somewhere about boiling Roast malt/Roasted barley for the same result
> Maybe in a hop sock or something until you get colour your'e after


Hi Helles, is this your experience? I've recently made a BIPA with a fair whack of Cara spec 2 at mashout to get the colour I wanted. I got the colour ok but also a fair whack of roast flavour one week into the keg. At the moment it tastes like an American stout. The flavour is now starting to round out but I think next time I will try the cold steep method.


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## brettprevans (14/12/12)

Truman -	search for 'grain comparison' chart on ahb. Should help
Yup midnight wheat is a great sub as is sinnamar if the sinnamar hasnt been watered down. We uaed a tonne of it in our laat batch as it musthave been diluted and was shit. Undiluted sinnamar should be used sparringly and works a treatt.


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## Nick JD (14/12/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> Truman -	search for 'grain comparison' chart on ahb. Should help
> Yup midnight wheat is a great sub as is sinnamar if the sinnamar hasnt been watered down. We uaed a tonne of it in our laat batch as it musthave been diluted and was shit. Undiluted sinnamar should be used sparringly and works a treatt.



That's E150 isn't it? Same stuff that makes Coca Cola black?


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## Truman42 (14/12/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> Truman -	search for 'grain comparison' chart on ahb. Should help
> Yup midnight wheat is a great sub as is sinnamar if the sinnamar hasnt been watered down. We uaed a tonne of it in our laat batch as it musthave been diluted and was shit. Undiluted sinnamar should be used sparringly and works a treatt.



Thanks mate that will come in very handy. Cheers


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## brettprevans (14/12/12)

Nick JD said:


> That's E150 isn't it? Same stuff that makes Coca Cola black?


Dont know. Weyermann website says it doesnt need an e number. So maybe, maybe not. 
http://www.weyermann.de/eng/produkte.asp?i...0&sprache=2


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## tallie (14/12/12)

Big Nath said:


> slightly off topic..
> 
> Isn't Caramalt just an "umbrella" term for all of the Crystal Malts? or i have i got that wrong.


 :icon_offtopic: 

BB Caramalt. I believe Joe White also do a Caramalt. But yeah, I have heard it used as an umbrella term, so you should clarify it.

Cheers,
tallie


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## felten (16/12/12)

Nick JD said:


> That's E150 isn't it? Same stuff that makes Coca Cola black?


AFAIK Sinamar is mashed, boiled, and fermented carafa special. And it is processed in that manner so it can pass the Reinheitsgebot.

Whereas the caramel colorings are made with ammonia/sulfuric acid.


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## thylacine (16/12/12)

Grain substitution charts: (Google is your friend...)

http://www.brewstock.com/brewstockbrewing.html

http://www.brew.is/files/malt.html

http://www.diybeer.co.za/beer-homebrewing/...tion-chart.html


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## brettprevans (16/12/12)

thylacine said:


> Grain substitution charts: (Google is your friend...)
> 
> http://www.brewstock.com/brewstockbrewing.html
> 
> ...


So's reading all the posts. Post 22. There are grain comparison charts on ahb


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## thylacine (16/12/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> So's reading all the posts. Post 22. There are grain comparison charts on ahb



Maybe, somewhere. ie following your refernece to post I used the suggested search function of AHB with first, the terms "grain comparison" as recommended in post #22; and then "grain comparison chart". Perhaps you would like to try it too and see if you get a direct link to a chart. I didn't. So in an attempt to assist the OP I included three URLs to charts which I have bookmarked. RHAHB


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## brettprevans (16/12/12)

thylacine said:


> Maybe, somewhere. ie following your refernece to post I used the suggested search function of AHB with first, the terms "grain comparison" as recommended in post #22; and then "grain comparison chart". Perhaps you would like to try it too and see if you get a direct link to a chart. I didn't. So in an attempt to assist the OP I included three URLs to charts which I have bookmarked. RHAHB


Here u go champ. Results for grain comparison chart http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...arison+chart%5C
2nd result and onwards. 3 charts. 
Rdwhahb


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