# Five Star 5.2 Ph Stabilizer



## sah

Hello,

I've been experiencing efficiency differences of up to 10% where the only significant variables between brews has been the water profile (addition of gypsum & epsom salts).

I'm speculating that it's a pH problem. I haven't tested it yet but I've got some test strips in the mail (cheers Ross).

I was also going to get my hands on some phosphoric acid too. However, I've discovered a product from Five Star called 5.2 pH Stabilizer. There is a little bit of information around about it. For example, <a href=http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4665.html#4665-7>this</a> from HomeBrewDigest. I didn't have any success searching this forum.

I haven't been able to find much information about how much of this stuff you get in the container or how much of it you need to use. Grain and Grape have a product listed called "5.2 pH Stabilizer", no brand name, no picture, no information. Its $25. I'll contact them for some more information.

Has anyone used this stuff? Can you tell us a little bit about it?

thanks
Scott


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## DJR

There's a lot of discussion on brewboard about it, the consensus seems to be that it's useful but can't cover every circumstance. There are certain mash compositions that will throw it out no matter what, such as a lot of dark malt in soft water, or a lot of light malt in hard water.

Go ahead and ring G&G i'm sure it won't do you any harm to start using it. Much easier than trying to work out gypsum/epsom/chalk/acid additions for every circumstance.


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## JasonY

just-cj made a quick reference to it in this post. Not a lot of info but sounds like a positive review. First I had heard of it and would be interested to hear how you go if you get some.

Good luck.


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## cj in j

Yes, I use it in every brew I do, and it works as advertised . . . for me. Some people have reported that it doesn't do much for them, but I think they have extremely hard water. Some info about the product. It's a granulated white powder (it kind of looks like PBW or laundry detergent) and comes in a plastic jar (maybe a liter-size jar?) that I think weighs a pound/450 grams. You add one tablespoon for every 20 liters of finished beer, not brew water -- one tablespoon is 21 grams of the stuff, by the way. Add it to the mash at mash in, along with your gypsum or calcium chloride (that your mash needs for proper conversion anyway). You don't need to add any to the sparge water -- in fact, I don't add anything at all to my sparge water, and I still haven't had any pH troubles with my last runnings. I haven't detected any flavors in the finished beer, but some people say that they can.

Using Stabilizer, my mash pH is always 5.2-5.3, no matter what the grain bill. After sparging, my last runnings are never higher than 5.6 (I checked my notes last weekend after I posted previously to confirm). I don't brew without it these days -- and I think the only time I didn't use it was when I was making a pilsner and I wanted to see if I could get the pH right all by myself (I could, but it was a pain). 

Hope that helps.


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## sah

Many thanks just-cj. I'll go off and order myself some. I'm haven't heard from G&G yet.

Cheers
Scott


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## sah

I got a call from G&G today. They've just sold their last tub and they have a supply issue. They won't have it available again for a couple of months.

Does anyone know of an Australian vendor that has this in stock? Or a US vendor that doesn't charge an arm and a leg for handling?

I guess I could look into a bulk buy if there is enough interest?

Cheers
Scott


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## fixa

i could be in for a bulk buy


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## Ross

Craftbrewer is hoping to have in stock before Christmas.

Cheers Ross


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## Zierschy

Hey there Adelaide AGers,

Has anyone given this stuff a go with Adelaide tap water?

I usually use rain water for Pilsners but I need to go a long way out of my way to get it. I am considering substituting the rain water for tap water + Ph Stabilizer.

I'd be interested in hearing other peoples experiences before I lash out and buy a tub.

Cheers!

Edit: Spelling


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## lucas

has anyone in melbourne used this stuff and feel like reviewing it? did it make a big difference or is our water pretty ok to start with?


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## razz

lucas said:


> has anyone in melbourne used this stuff and feel like reviewing it? did it make a big difference or is our water pretty ok to start with?


G'day lucas. I got some of G&G recently, but I've only used it once and that brew is still in the fermenter/cc'ing. The beer is a snpa clone and I must say it does taste great so far. I occasionally measure the last runnings but usually forget.


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## bennyc

Any update on this Razz? Or on the product in general (anyone)?


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## Jye

I have just started using it and so far only kegged one beer. It was a house APA and I couldnt taste any difference. There were also no complaints when the entire keg was drunk at my clubs 30th anniversary party last weekend. 

I checked the mash pH and the stuff works, but it didnt solve my slight chill haze problem that I hoped it would


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## razz

bennyc said:


> Any update on this Razz? Or on the product in general (anyone)?


Thanks for the prompt bennyc. I have now made two ales, SNPA clone and NS summer ale, and I must say they have a very crisp finish. Very nice beers indeed ! I can't say how much influence the pH 5.2 had on these beers and I still forgot to check the final runnings. I'm doing a CAP this week so I will check.


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## Lukes

I have been using this stuff this year ever since I had a few issues with my % numbers and changed to a false bottom and increased batch size.
I just prep my rain or tap water as previous.
Chuck 5.2 in the mash with the gypsum or calcium chloride.
It makes it way too easy and not that much in $$ per batch.
More sugars = better eff so all good and the citric/phos acid now just sit on the shelf.
I think it would be a great addition for smaller batch brewing that suffer from poor eff.

BTW: I have only batch sparged with it!

- Luke 
More white powders in bags and jars than the local night club.


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## therook

Hey Lukes,

I would have thought you wouldn't need to add Gypsum or chloride if your using 5.2?

Rook


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## Jye

therook said:


> Hey Lukes,
> 
> I would have thought you wouldn't need to add Gypsum or chloride if your using 5.2?
> 
> Rook



You don't need to add them to adjust the pH, but should still add them as flour additives, sulfate for hoppy beers and chloride for maltiness. This is straight from Charlie Talley a founder of Five Star.


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## Lukes

Jye beat me to it...

:beerbang:


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## SpillsMostOfIt

I use it all the time so that (frankly) I just don't have to think about pH. Melbourne water is pretty good, so I just throw in the 5.2 and not think any more. 

A tub will last you a long time.

I spent part of this morning listening to the Basic Brewing Radio double episode on sanitation and the guy who invented HySan reckons you can use chlorine bleach if the pH is below 6 (preferably 4, I think), which you can achieve with some vinegar and pH strips. 

I thought to myself "Another use for 5.2."


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## Jye

And for those that are interested and with good scales a 23L batch need *11g*... I feel better measuring it than using a tablespoon.


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## therook

Jye said:


> And for those that are interested and with good scales a 23L batch need *11g*... I feel better measuring it than using a tablespoon.




Jye,

That contradicts ( sp ) what cj says in post 4 ????????

rook


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## Jye

> *GENERAL USE DIRECTIONS*
> Use 5.2 at a rate of approx. 2oz. per 31 gallons of water used in your brew. Calculate
> the amount of water based on the total volume in the kettle (ex. 7bbl. Leaving kettle
> use 14oz. of 52). Place 52 in the mash tun while you are mashing in. If desired, dissolve
> in a small amount of water before adding to the mash.



Rook it came straight from the spec sheet.

2oz. per 31 gallons
56g per 117L
11g per 23L


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## therook

thanks Jye


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## Hogan

I used the 5.2 in yesterdays ESB. Only put a teaspoon (7gms) into the mash and also used Calcium Sulphate (gypsum) in the brewing liquor. I use the pH strips and got a reading from the mash around 5.0 

My water is from the tank.

My usual Brewhouse efficiency for this beer is around 80% but this time I got 84% into the boiler and 88% into the fermenter. 

With the soft tank water and the addition of gypsum, I think I could get by using less than the 7 gms of 5.2 and this will make the 450gm jar go a long way.:super: 


Cheers, Hoges.


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## Jye

Just an update that Ive been using 5g for a 21L batch and still hitting the correct pH.

Hogan you might want to check your efficiency, I dont think it can go up from post boil to the fermenter? :huh:


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## Hogan

Jye said:


> Hogan you might want to check your efficiency, I dont think it can go up from post boil to the fermenter? :huh:




Yes Jye - a little measurement deficiency on the volume stick of 1.2 litres into the boiler made me 4% short. 


Cheers, Hoges.


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## wessmith

Dont forget that wort "shrinks" 4% from boiling temp to 20C

Wes


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## fraser_john

I fully balanced (to Burton on Trent) my mash water (rainwater) prior to brewing an ESB on Saturday and according to promash it should have had a PH of around 8!! I used four teaspoons (40gms??) of 5.2 and tested the PH at around 5.5 after dough in. 

Did a three rinse batch sparge, testing PH after dumping in the HLT water, every time around 5.0, so it is quite capable of maintaining its buffering ability as it rinses out.

Have been very happy with this product so far.


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## Hogan

wessmith said:


> Dont forget that wort "shrinks" 4% from boiling temp to 20C
> 
> Wes



Yes Wes but I did not think that a reduction in volume through cooling after the boil would have any effect on the efficiency as it does for 'volume into boiler' after mashing??? 

In Beersmith a miscalculation on the measuring stick from mash into the boiler can make a significant difference to the reading for 'efficiency into boiler'. 

I also well realize that I, like others, am also prone to equipment measurement failure when measuring the volume. A little mistake can make a significant difference.


Cheers, Hoges.


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## wessmith

Gidday Hoges,

Certainly the efficiency should be taken on what goes into the kettle to make up the required pre-boil volume. We use a dipstick on the bigger systems too and will always top up the kettle to ensure we hit the right post boil volume. Into this "guesstimate" we have to take into account evaporation, length of boil and the wort shrinkage along with other losses in the system. Also when setting up Promash for micro use we make sure the 4 % is included in the total "water needed" calculation. That way you can pretty much hit the required brew length/ABV most of the time.

FWIW, we tend to hover aropund the 87% efficiency mark most of the time and yes, getting the pH to 5.2 to 5.4 is critical in achieving that. But so is the crush, mash temps and water profiles.

Wes



Hogan said:


> Yes Wes but I did not think that a reduction in volume through cooling after the boil would have any effect on the efficiency as it does for 'volume into boiler' after mashing???
> 
> In Beersmith a miscalculation on the measuring stick from mash into the boiler can make a significant difference to the reading for 'efficiency into boiler'.
> 
> I also well realize that I, like others, am also prone to equipment measurement failure when measuring the volume. A little mistake can make a significant difference.
> 
> 
> Cheers, Hoges.


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## bcp

3 or 4 years on, do brewers in melbourne bother using 5.2 pH stabilizer?

Are there certain types of beers that it's more important for?

(you can't say i'm not checking the old posts to see if there's been a previous discussion!)


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## WarmBeer

I would be keen to get feedback on how this improves efficiency, especially with Melbourne suburban water.

Have gotten woeful efficiency on my first 3 AG's, and would like to try to improve it.


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## Supra-Jim

Hi WB,

Can you define 'woeful efficiency'?

I have been using 5.2 on my last few brew (4-5) i can't it has revolutionised efficiency or the end product, but it hasn't negatively effected it either.

Cheers SJ


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## Fourstar

WarmBeer said:


> I would be keen to get feedback on how this improves efficiency, especially with Melbourne suburban water.
> Have gotten woeful efficiency on my first 3 AG's, and would like to try to improve it.



Assuming you have bog standard low mineral water in melbourne (using tap water), 5.2 will probably do sweet nothing for you as you mash pH will probabaly be spot on anyway, especially if you are brewing low coloured beers (although anything up to amber is fine). AFAIK its designed for water w/ high alkalinity to buffer it. 

You can use 5.2 for repeatability/safety net or to buffer any dark malts acid in the mash (e.g. brewing a stout with low alkaline water). If anything, i'd get yourself some calcium sulfate or calcium chloride for light coloured beers and chalk for dark beer (stout & porters) and add a pinch of either to your strike water (a tsp of chalk for dark beers however). The calcium is really the only thing you need to help you with enzyme activity and conversion. I found my efficiency jumped by 3-5 points as soon as i started doing salt additions (i dont know if this is coincedental).

Dont worry too much about thorwing your mash completly out of whack as we are essentially starting with a base of nothing. An addition of calcium will drop your mash pH slightly, but nothing excessive. Chalk will give you some alkalinity whcih is needed for the acidic darker malts but wont creep too high as the Ca will help buffer it somewhat.

At the end of the day, i'd recommend doing a little reading on water adjustment (palmers is a quick easy start).

Cheers! :beerbang:


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## WarmBeer

Supra-Jim said:


> Hi WB,
> 
> Can you define 'woeful efficiency'?
> 
> I have been using 5.2 on my last few brew (4-5) i can't it has revolutionised efficiency or the end product, but it hasn't negatively effected it either.
> 
> Cheers SJ


About 55%, albeit I'm still learning my equipment and technique.

Have been using the BIASIAE (Brew In A Sheet In An Esky) method, with a batch sparge after draining the first runnings. Current esky is too small to do a proper mash-out, although I added a couple of litres of boiling water at the end to raise it a degree or two.

Last brew I let the bag (well, technically, sheet) drain suspended for about 15 mins, and I got a couple more litres of wort into the boil. It's still in the cube, so haven't checked actual OG yet, but still ended up 5 gravity points lower than the BeerSmith estimate on my pre-boil wort.


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## WarmBeer

Fourstar said:


> Assuming you have bog standard low mineral water in melbourne (using tap water), 5.2 will probably do sweet nothing for you as you mash pH will probabaly be spot on anyway, especially if you are brewing low coloured beers (although anything up to amber is fine). AFAIK its designed for water w/ high alkalinity to buffer it.
> 
> You can use 5.2 for repeatability/safety net or to buffer any dark malts acid in the mash (e.g. brewing a stout with low alkaline water). If anything, i'd get yourself some calcium sulfate or calcium chloride for light coloured beers and chalk for dark beer (stout & porters) and add a pinch of either to your strike water (a tsp of chalk for dark beers however). The calcium is really the only thing you need to help you with enzyme activity and conversion. I found my efficiency jumped by 3-5 points as soon as i started doing salt additions (i dont know if this is coincedental).
> 
> Dont worry too much about thorwing your mash completly out of whack as we are essentially starting with a base of nothing. An addition of calcium will drop your mash pH slightly, but nothing excessive. Chalk will give you some alkalinity whcih is needed for the acidic darker malts but wont creep too high as the Ca will help buffer it somewhat.
> 
> At the end of the day, i'd recommend doing a little reading on water adjustment (palmers is a quick easy start).
> 
> Cheers! :beerbang:


Good information (as usual) Fourstar, 

Will pick up some Calcium Sulphate and chalk (hmmm, the kids have got a bunch of chalk sticks they use for drawing, wonder if I can use that? :lol: ) next time I do some brew shopping.

Have read the relevant sections in HTB, but I think I need to mix theory with practice in order to fully understand the chemistry involved.

Cheers


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## Supra-Jim

Possibly consider some of salt additions as per Fourstars recommendations above. I have only just started playing with these things, so will refrain from too much comment.

I'm still working at getting my efficiency consistantly at around 70% (thouigh i think my issues may be volume measurement related).

Cheers SJ


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## kevin_smevin

Fourstar said:


> Assuming you have bog standard low mineral water in melbourne (using tap water), 5.2 will probably do sweet nothing for you as you mash pH will probabaly be spot on anyway, especially if you are brewing low coloured beers (although anything up to amber is fine). AFAIK its designed for water w/ high alkalinity to buffer it.
> 
> You can use 5.2 for repeatability/safety net or to buffer any dark malts acid in the mash (e.g. brewing a stout with low alkaline water). If anything, i'd get yourself some calcium sulfate or calcium chloride for light coloured beers and chalk for dark beer (stout & porters) and add a pinch of either to your strike water (a tsp of chalk for dark beers however). The calcium is really the only thing you need to help you with enzyme activity and conversion. I found my efficiency jumped by 3-5 points as soon as i started doing salt additions (i dont know if this is coincedental).
> 
> Dont worry too much about thorwing your mash completly out of whack as we are essentially starting with a base of nothing. An addition of calcium will drop your mash pH slightly, but nothing excessive. Chalk will give you some alkalinity whcih is needed for the acidic darker malts but wont creep too high as the Ca will help buffer it somewhat.
> 
> At the end of the day, i'd recommend doing a little reading on water adjustment (palmers is a quick easy start).
> 
> Cheers! :beerbang:




Just to add a bit here. Dont use chalk. Its basically 100% insoluble (about 10mg/L solubility) so it doesn't change the chemistry of your water at all. If you want to add carbonate use baking soda. I've also done some experiments with pH, including some with pH 5.2 stabilizer. Using Melbourne Tap water and 100ppm Ca salts in pale beers the pH is much higher then 5.2 (i have a pH meter). I found that i need to add both calcium salts and acid to get the pH in the right ball park. The addition of both Ca salts and getting pH spot on will greatly increase efficiency as they enhance the activity of amylase enzymes, especially B-amylase. So if your going to head down this path you'll have to adjust mash temps etc because B-amylase becomes much more active and you end up with lower final gravities. Thats just what i've found in my set up, may be different for other people.


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## manticle

WarmBeer said:


> Good information (as usual) Fourstar,
> 
> Will pick up some Calcium Sulphate and chalk (hmmm, the kids have got a bunch of chalk sticks they use for drawing, wonder if I can use that? :lol: ) next time I do some brew shopping.
> 
> Have read the relevant sections in HTB, but I think I need to mix theory with practice in order to fully understand the chemistry involved.
> 
> Cheers



Personally I'd try and work out what you can change in your technique/process before moving to water additions. You should be able to hit much higher than 55%. 

I don't use any additions (will be playing around with them at some point) and I regularly hit 70%. Yesterday I got slightly higher and I've had very slightly lower before but it's usually pretty consistent.

Chalk is traditionally just calcium carbonate - I read recently that CaCO3 is soluble in acetic acid (not sure about other acids). However I believe modern chalk is calcium sulphate (gypsum).

Are you working out your efficiency from pre-boil gravity or post boil?


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## Fourstar

yum yum yum said:


> Just to add a bit here. Dont use chalk. Its basically 100% insoluble (about 10mg/L solubility) so it doesn't change the chemistry of your water at all. If you want to add carbonate use baking soda. I've also done some experiments with pH, including some with pH 5.2 stabilizer.



Yes very true, chalk is diffucult to dissolve but the method in my madness was to help them control the amount of carbonates they put into their mash as adding alkalinity, uncontrolled (if they do not have gram scales) via baking soda is abit of a dangerous job, especially if you dont add Ca hardness. The mash does 1/2 the job at dissolving it but is not as effective as an acid. A way to use chalk (a bit of a PITA) via acid is to put your mash water into an empty corny keg with your chalk and carbonate it. This creates a bicarbonate and Ca. 

By adding CO2 we create carbonic acid and its the carbonic acid that will aid in dissolving the chalk.


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## Fourstar

manticle said:


> Personally I'd try and work out what you can change in your technique/process before moving to water additions. You should be able to hit much higher than 55%.



I think the poor efficiency may have todo with a range of things that can be easily fixed. The sparge technique, in conjunction with temperature control and L:G ratio no to mention ensuring you thoroughly wet/mix the grain upon dough in.

If this is all good, simply holding it at a constant temp the conversion should be easy. Then its just a matter of getting the wort out of the grain thats the tricky part. which may be the issue all along. Especially with a small mash tun.


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## Supra-Jim

Fourstar said:


> Yes very true, chalk is diffucult to dissolve but the method in my madness was to help them control the amount of carbonates they put into their mash as adding alkalinity, uncontrolled (if they do not have gram scales) via baking soda is abit of a dangerous job, especially if you dont add Ca hardness. The mash does 1/2 the job at dissolving it but is not as effective as an acid. A way to use chalk (a bit of a PITA) via acid is to put your mash water into an empty corny keg with your chalk and carbonate it. This creates a bicarbonate and Ca.
> 
> By adding CO2 we create carbonic acid and its the carbonic acid that will aid in dissolving the chalk.



Could you pre-mix your chalk into a bottle of soda water, and add it this way?

Cheers SJ


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## Fourstar

Supra-Jim said:


> Could you pre-mix your chalk into a bottle of soda water, and add it this way?
> 
> Cheers SJ



Only one way to find out but i guess it could work. I can assure you of one thing, mass nucleation when you add the chalk to the bottle!


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## Supra-Jim

Ahhhhh! Good point, i forgot about that! Maybe use a soda-stream machine if you ahve one lying around.

Cheers SJ


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## kevin_smevin

alternatively just use CaCl or CaSO4 along with Baking soda and you dont have to stuff about. All very soluble


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## Fourstar

yum yum yum said:


> alternatively just use CaCl or CaSO4 along with Baking soda and you dont have to stuff about. All very soluble



but then wont it precipitate out as chalk?


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## Bribie G

WarmBeer said:


> About 55%, albeit I'm still learning my equipment and technique.
> 
> Have been using the *BIASIAE (Brew In A Sheet In An Esky)* method, with a batch sparge after draining the first runnings. Current esky is too small to do a proper mash-out, although I added a couple of litres of boiling water at the end to raise it a degree or two.
> 
> Last brew I let the bag (well, technically, sheet) drain suspended for about 15 mins, and I got a couple more litres of wort into the boil. It's still in the cube, so haven't checked actual OG yet, but still ended up 5 gravity points lower than the BeerSmith estimate on my pre-boil wort.



   

:icon_offtopic: 

Off topic but would you like to start a thread on this? I'm absolutely fascinated by the ramifications of this concept, which I became acquainted with exactly four minutes ago - may be a good cheaper avenue into AG for beginners.


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## kevin_smevin

Fourstar said:


> but then wont it precipitate out as chalk?




I might be missing something but why do you want it to precipitate after going to such lengths to make it soluble?


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## Supra-Jim

Brew in a sheet in an esky 





+





 

Sorry, I'll go and sit in corner now!

Cheers SJ


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## Fourstar

yum yum yum said:


> I might be missing something but why do you want it to precipitate after going to such lengths to make it soluble?



Exactly. When you add calcium and carbonate together in water, my understanding is they will precipitate out as chalk unless the pH is low enough to keep them soluble. So adding them in the form of CaCl and NaHCO3 will yield you with chalk precipitate.


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## WarmBeer

BribieG said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> Off topic but would you like to start a thread on this? I'm absolutely fascinated by the ramifications of this concept, which I became acquainted with exactly four minutes ago - may be a good cheaper avenue into AG for beginners.


BIASIAE - Cause I can't sew well enough to make a bag, and I'm too tight to buy a proper manifold 











The swiss voille acts to keep the grain from escaping, and allows squeezing / suspending the grains post mash.

The esky just helps keep consistent temperature during the rest without lagging with a doona, etc.

I think I will stump up for a bigger esky, and possibly a manifold of some sort soon, but this is how I learnt, so this is what I do.


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## manticle

How do you outlet from the esky and how big is it? Big doesn't necessarily = better.


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## Supra-Jim

That esky looks to be around 20-25ltr mark and most likely has bung in the bottom of one of sides for draining. A larger (within reason) would allow for, i imagine, WB to mash a full grain bill and do a mash out/batch???

Cheers SJ


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## manticle

I use 26 Litre and regulalrly mash with 6+ kg grain bills. I also mash out with around 6-8 L of water. She's full but it's possible.


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## WarmBeer

manticle said:


> How do you outlet from the esky and how big is it? Big doesn't necessarily = better.


As S-J supposed, there is a bung-hole (tee-hee-hee  ) drilled by the previous owner in the bottom of the esky, which I've siliconed a garden hose adapter into to provide an outlet. Esky is approx 23 lt capacity.

I'm only targeting 17lt batches (no-chill into a FWK cube), but at the efficiencies I'm getting, I have been using about 5kg grain at a L:G ratio of about 2.8:1. It gets pretty full if I need to top up with boiling water mid-mash to maintain temperature.

The last batch I used Powells malt, but prior to that have used JW. Crush was done by G&G.

I'm not particularly worried about the dollar or two extra spent due to the low efficiency, but the engineer in me desperately wants to "optimise, optimise, optimise".


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## manticle

I guess this is a little OT now but:

I've heard (and someone may correct me) that efficiency suffers if the grain bill gets too large.

Next time try using around 4 kg at a ratio of 2.5 per L. Preheat the tun and insulate it to avoid having to add anything in during mashing. Mash out with around 6 L of near boiling water. After mash out let the bed settle 10 minutes, then drain off your recirculation wort (slowly at first, then quicker as the end of the hose is covered) and your first runnings.

Assuming you're batch sparging, add in water around 78 deg and let the bed settle for 10 mins again. I read a recommendation that gentle stirring at this point should increase efficiency - I've found the exact opposite so I don't do that anymore. Recirc again till no husks, then drain in the same way.

This is how I do it in my tun - obviously your equipment may vary, your mileage may vary etc but it works for me. Give it a go and see before you start treating the water. Once you're happy then try and up the points a bit with some additions.


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## kevin_smevin

Fourstar said:


> Exactly. When you add calcium and carbonate together in water, my understanding is they will precipitate out as chalk unless the pH is low enough to keep them soluble. So adding them in the form of CaCl and NaHCO3 will yield you with chalk precipitate.



So you add say CaCl and NaHCO3 to water and the molecules dissociate to form Ca + Cl + Na + H + CO3 all in their ionic forms. They will remain like this until it is heated and then Ca and CO3 will combine to form CaCO3 (chalk) and precipitate out of solution (this is very simplified). In the old days they used to boil brewing water to precipitate out chalk and reduce alkalinity before using it for mashing/sparging.

When you add CaCO3, it forms Ca and CO3 ions which like above will form CaCO3 and precipitate out of solution upon heating. The problem here is that it is so insoluble you have to acidify the water via carbonation to get it to dissociate. Once in their ionic form they behave exactly the same is if you added CaCl and NaHCO3. 

The only difference i see is the solubility and the trouble your going through to get the chalk into solution? Thats my understanding anyway. It may be wrong, i'm sure we could go back and forth all day....


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## Supra-Jim

Hi manticle,

I've 'heard' the opposite, large grain bills are easier to get better efficiency (provided they are approxiate for the vessel). It was explained to me (briefly) that the depth of the mash effects efficiency. Shallow mash can lead to low efficiency, however a deeper mash is easier to get better efficiency. Can't recall the exact how's and whys of it.

I think water to grain ratio also comes into play somewhere here too.

Cheers SJ


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## manticle

Yeah I would have thought it would be to do with bed depth and water ratios and be vessel dependent (so proportional). I guess there's probably an optimum and either side of that efficiency suffers?

Anyway pure speculation on my part at this point.


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## SpillsMostOfIt

There must be some link here to why Germans store their beer in limestone caves... h34r:


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## kfahy

When go higher gravity beers my efficiency suffers. I usually get about 73% but when i put down a Russian Imperial Stout i go down to about 60%. The last one i did i sparged more than i have sparged before and it didn't make any difference, 60%. 

My expereince on my system etc etc.


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## manticle

High gravity is what I meant to say - not just larger grain bills. Obviously higher gravity = more grain:less water so presumably there's a relationship there.


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## Gulpa

bluetoff said:


> When go higher gravity beers my efficiency suffers. I usually get about 73% but when i put down a Russian Imperial Stout i go down to about 60%. The last one i did i sparged more than i have sparged before and it didn't make any difference, 60%.
> 
> My expereince on my system etc etc.



Yep. I have found this also on my system also with similar % figures. Havent done enough big beers to get to the bottom of the why.

cheers
Andrew.


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## Thirsty Boy

If you batch sparge - in a high gravity beer with a consequentially larger grain bill... you must get lower efficiency. It is the nature of the process.

You lose say 1.1L of wort to every kg of grain yes?? Well if you have twice as much grain and the wort is twice as strong... you lose twice as much liquid which is twice as strong.... so thats 4 times as much sugar you are throwing away with your spent grain. And every litre of deadspace in your system sucks out twice as much sugar. You can sparge more to compensate, but you will end up with a higher pre-boil volume that you have to boil away.

As for fly sparging - well with a given L:G ratio.. you use less sparge water to hit your pre-boil volume, so you are likely to get lower efficiency due to the reduced sparge, and there is every possibility that your system just physically doesn't work as well when it has more grain in it. The run-off dynamic is going to change with grain bed depth... and you double your grain bill, you double your grain bed depth - so its bound to change. And the change is usually for the worse.

Pretty much everybody gets worse efficiency going from low to high gravity beers. Its just something to tweak over time and to anticipate so you hit your targets.

TB


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