# Brett Questions



## kevo (2/6/08)

Howdy,

Having a bit of an experiment with some Orval dregs at the moment....

Some questions...

Any beers, other than Orval, with funky dregs which can be used to pitch into batches?

Any decent lambics/lambic style available in Australia, SE Queensland preferably, which might have useful bacteria? I can get Belle-Vue, but from what I've read, seen and tasted it's; not a particularly good example of the style, like medicine and the sediment in the bottom didn't look as though it would be too interested in doing much, if anything.

Once Brett takes off and I'm happy with the character, will a cold fridge send Brett to sleep, or will the character just keep on developing until it consumes everything?

Any thoughts appreciated....

Cheers 

Kev


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## kevo (4/6/08)

Anyone?

Nothing??

Bueller?

Bueller?

Bueller?


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## dig (4/6/08)

I'd be surprised if the yeast in a bottle of Orval is their primary yeast (or yeast blend). A lot of Belgian yeasts are top croppers and very flocculent, so it's common to re-pitch with a powdery strain that stays up in suspension. You may be going to a lot of trouble to make yourself some 34-70...

White Labs carry a range of brettanomyces strains... order one in.


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## brendanos (4/6/08)

I've read some interviews with the brewers, and apparantly they bottle with Brett. So if you get it really fresh (within 3 months or so) you get a lot of dry hop character, and none of the Brett.

A lot of people (and Breweries) have brewed Bretty beers from Orval dregs!

No idea what you can get in SEQ... :S Do Buckley's make it up that way?


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## dig (4/6/08)

brendanos said:


> Do Buckley's make it up that way?


Steady on

I found out just today that Buckley's are in Healesville. That's interesting.


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## Stuster (4/6/08)

No, he's right, dig, Orval is definitely supposed to be given a dose of brett at bottling time. Glad they use nice thick bottles and know what they're doing. :huh: 

I think that you're dead right about the Belle-Vue which is certainly a disgusting drop IMO. Personally, I think you might be best off getting a vial of something instead of trying to culture stuff up. The Roeselare blend is in the VSS program from Wyeast at the moment. That's (more or less) the blend Rodenbach use. I have no idea if you can get something to grow from any wild Belgian beers you can get or even what you can get there. There's nothing here that I know of at least. The main issue might be that you wouldn't know what was still alive in an old bottle and so what mixture of flavours you'd get if you did manage to culture it up.

On the other hand, you could just culture something up from any Buckley's beer you can find. h34r:


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## kabooby (4/6/08)

Stuster said:


> On the other hand, you could just culture something up from any Buckley's beer you can find. h34r:



I have had Buckley's and I am not convinced it was beer :unsure:


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## dr K (4/6/08)

> I've read some interviews with the brewers, and apparantly they bottle with Brett. So if you get it really fresh (within 3 months or so) you get a lot of dry hop character, and none of the Brett.



Which is fine and I too note that in these higher turnover days that Brett is added at bottling, but given that the driving quality of Orval is a Brett character, and given that the Brett character takes some time to develop anyway, then why would Orval release a beer that had been brett tinctured at bottling straight way after bottling? The dry finish in Brett beer is due to the fact that brett is highly, and in the right mix super attenuative, on top of that my nose may be not the best but I struggle to find any (well certainly not lot of) hop charcter in Orval, perhaps I , as an old Hunter Valley boy, am more entranced by the sweaty saddle notes.


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## kevo (4/6/08)

I never enjoyed Orval until I let it warm up a bit, always tried it too cold - I get much more bitterness once it has a bit of warmth.


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## Hargie (4/6/08)

...if you want Brett or any other of those wild belgian bastards just go and lick Dr K's fridge...inside or out...


...Cougar...


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## Hargie (4/6/08)

dr K said:


> perhaps I , as an old Hunter Valley boy, am more entranced by the sweaty saddle notes.




...preferably female....


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## Insight (4/6/08)

I am across to Perth pretty regularly and the IBS in Leederville is the only place in Australia I have found proper gueuze (leaving aside that horrible Timmermans blend with stale draught found in the Belgian Beer Cafe chain). They periodically have Boon and Cantillion which you will be able to steal some good cultures from. They ship Australia wide.


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## neonmeate (5/6/08)

i agree with Dr K that the hop level in my last few bottles of Orval has been pretty low - in fresh bottles. i think a lot of bottles are getting oxidised/maltreated.

Orval can give you excellent Brett though. I have used it heaps of times with tasty results.


Other than that the only other commercial sources of funk outside IBS would be Buckleys or that new French brewery Vivat who have a tripel and a blond out here recently. they taste like they have some brett and maybe some other wild yeast going on too.


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## Asher (5/6/08)

.... Or take a quick drive through 'Victoria Park, WA' past Randy Rob's & Trash Mash Al's places with an open fermenter hanging out the window :lol:


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## kevo (5/6/08)

When using brett in a fermentation - does the brett produce a pellicle or is it the other bugs - lacto/paedeo etc?

When I achieve the brett character I want, can I put it to sleep or will it conitnue munching on regardless?

cheers

kev


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## neonmeate (5/6/08)

kevo said:


> When using brett in a fermentation - does the brett produce a pellicle or is it the other bugs - lacto/paedeo etc?
> 
> When I achieve the brett character I want, can I put it to sleep or will it conitnue munching on regardless?
> 
> ...



brett MAY produce a pellicle but won't always. 


you can put it to sleep only by pasteurising or sodium met. otherwise it will keep munching. so when you add brett leave it at least a month (or three) and take hydrometer readings to be sure you have got as low as youre going to go.

a good strategy is to make a really fermentable wort so that you're already down to <1007 or so before the brett even gets added. that way you will limit the brett's portion. if you add brett to a barleywine that's stopped at 1025 the brett will most likely chew through 15-20 gravity points, and you will have trouble knowing when it's done, unless you leave it 6 months or something before bottling. bottle too early and yer in trouble.

the babblebelt site is the place to go for brett advice.


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## Trent (5/6/08)

I agree with neonmate
The babblebelt is the place to head for all things brett (ww2.babblebelt.com) and go to the homebbbrew forum. I have a mate that made a massive starter from orval dregs and puts some of the starter into his bret beers at bottling, and they are sensational. As for Insight's comments that Cantillon Gueuze is available in Oz, I am off to find ISB on the net right now - cheers, insight!
Trent


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## Darren (5/6/08)

kevo said:


> Anyone?
> 
> Nothing??
> 
> ...




Kevo,

Bret in your brewery will be very difficult to get rid of (if by chance you dont want it in all your beers)

Probably better off buying an Awful (Orval) when you need a Brett hit

cheers

Darren


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## Stuster (5/6/08)

You think, Darren. But it's just a form of yeast. Do you think it is any more difficult to get rid of than any other yeast?


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## Darren (5/6/08)

Hey Stuster,

Poppet valves, lines, yeah difficult to get rid of for sure. Plus it gives off flavours and produces acid. Could produce a real "house" flavour hidden away in taps/seals/grommets

cheers

Darren


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## Stuster (5/6/08)

I've used it a bit (not extensively yet but got more plans). To date I've used only glass and one dedicated cube fermenter. Bottling bucket, auto-syphon though have been used for that and other batches and no house flavour development to date. I am always very careful with cleaning after that (though I'm always very careful). I guess my point is that as long as you use a good cleaning, sanitation regime then you should be ok. There's plenty of stuff floating round that we have to deal with in any case.


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## Darren (5/6/08)

Hey Stus,

Just watch those kegs. Not often you intentionally culture up a flavour "bug"

cheers

Darren


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## Stuster (5/6/08)

Luckily I have no kegs.


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## voota (5/6/08)

Bretts all fun and good to experiment with until you find it in all your beers. I've got a barleywine which has gone from awesome to very very dry and pissy thanks to brett. 

Keep your lambics and brett experiments well away from your 'standard brews' and never use the fermenters for anything but wild beers again. 

As for yeasts, I've had really good results by adding orval dregs to a wyyeast saison strain. 

Does anyone have any idea how to slow the rate the brett takes over the beer? I reckon orval takes about 1 year for the brett to really take hold, and two years for it to go a bit nasty... by 6 months all my brett beers are (for want of a better word)... screwed.

Happy wild brewing


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## kevo (5/6/08)

As far as contamination goes - I've got the batch in a glass fermenter and have labelled everything with BRETT in nikko, stoppers, hoses etc. so hoping that nothing crosses over by using the same gear across batches.

That's the plan anyway.

I like the sound of a 'house yeast' though. Gives it character.  

Thanks everyone for your input and advice.

Kev


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## brendanos (5/6/08)

Some others bretty beers I've encountered that you may run into - T'ij Zatte (T'ij do a few bretts), Piraat Blond (intentional?), most of De Dolle's beers, some Le Baladin, the occasional Achel (def unintentional). Live lambics you might find are Boon, Cantillon, and Lindemans (though the cuvee rene is prob the only one with live cultures in it). Boon is running a bit dry in oz atm afaik but Cantillon will be back soon.


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## Tony (5/6/08)

voota said:


> Does anyone have any idea how to slow the rate the brett takes over the beer?



Bleach!

Seriously though........... i would have thought it was dependant on the amount of Brett in the beer to how long it took to geet going.

Im no expert though............ my only experience with wild yeast infections is treating them with lots of bleach!

cheers


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## dig (5/6/08)

Back in my Ye Olde Malt Shovel days, we picked up a Brettanomyces contamination in the wheat beer we were making at the time (dirty bright tank, no sterile filter before pack, no pasteuriser). I reckon that this was the most fascinating thing I have ever observed in beer.

Contamination was very low level but as mentioned in this thread, brett strains are slow growing and can chomp away on carbohydrates that regular Saccharomyces culture yeasts can't. On average, on a six pack basis, three bottles dodged the bullet, two bottles got one cell only and the sixth got two or three. Each cell grew into a colony which didn't disperse through the beer. Instead, they formed little balls about the size of a chick pea that were gossamer thin but still very visible. you could roll them around the bottom of the bottle. In a six pack, half the beers were bretty and the other half weren't. And you could see which were which without removing the crown...

I liked the bretty ones. Personal taste I guess. The product was pulled from the shelves and the brand killed. The raspberry beer that's on the shelves at the moment is the first 'Mad Brewers' release since the bretty beer four or five years ago.


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## ausdb (6/6/08)

dig said:


> Back in my Ye Olde Malt Shovel days, we picked up a Brettanomyces contamination in the wheat beer we were making at the time (dirty bright tank, no sterile filter before pack, no pasteuriser). I reckon that this was the most fascinating thing I have ever observed in beer.
> 
> Contamination was very low level but as mentioned in this thread, brett strains are slow growing and can chomp away on carbohydrates that regular Saccharomyces culture yeasts can't. On average, on a six pack basis, three bottles dodged the bullet, two bottles got one cell only and the sixth got two or three. Each cell grew into a colony which didn't disperse through the beer. Instead, they formed little balls about the size of a chick pea that were gossamer thin but still very visible. you could roll them around the bottom of the bottle. In a six pack, half the beers were bretty and the other half weren't. And you could see which were which without removing the crown...
> 
> I liked the bretty ones. Personal taste I guess. The product was pulled from the shelves and the brand killed. The raspberry beer that's on the shelves at the moment is the first 'Mad Brewers' release since the bretty beer four or five years ago.



That sounds pretty interesting did you measure any to see how much further it attenuated?


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## dig (6/6/08)

ausdb said:


> That sounds pretty interesting did you measure any to see how much further it attenuated?


No, I don't recall that we did...

But they were drier. Dry and clovey (4vg). Not 'horsey' or 'hospital/band-aidy' (which I think is 4 ethyl-phenol... a winemaker friend ran me through all their faults once).

Delicious though. Should have kept one for culturing...


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## mika (6/6/08)

dig said:


> ...since the bretty beer four or five years ago.



Takes that long to clean the brewery ?


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## ausdb (6/6/08)

dig said:


> But they were drier. Dry and clovey (4vg). Not 'horsey' or 'hospital/band-aidy' (which I think is 4 ethyl-phenol... a winemaker friend ran me through all their faults once).
> 
> Delicious though. Should have kept one for culturing...


Mmmm 4vg my fave in a wheat better than hubba bubba and banana's, amazing that it was so controlled. I have 30l of red wine in my shed that is only fit for "purification" waayy too much horseiness h34r: . I know it's OT but did your winemaker mate say much about what other effects it had? in my bad stuff it has ripped a lot of of the colour out and all of the fruit, looks more like a dark rose than a merlot now and tastes like a barnyard.


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## Thirsty Boy (6/6/08)

Just thinking about Darren's warning about how hard it is to kill off brett - specifically in kegs.

Fair call that chemically it might be hard to sort it out, but surely boiling water is going to kill brett no matter what? Valves, lids, seals all into a big pot of water and boil the bejeezus out of them for half an hour. Doesn't matter what nooks and crannys the yeasties are hiding in, 100 is gonna do for them. The boiling water then goes into the already normally sanitized keg for a good swirl around and a follow up with another round of sanitiser.

Maybe a plastic fermenter would be beyond help, but I really cant see a yeast living through a determined effort to clean them out of a keg.

Or.. perhaps I am being naive and Brett are just a helluvalot tougher than other bugs???


PS - Dig, that Brett story from Malt Shovel is bloody fascinating


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## goatherder (6/6/08)

dig said:


> No, I don't recall that we did...
> 
> But they were drier. Dry and clovey (4vg). Not 'horsey' or 'hospital/band-aidy' (which I think is 4 ethyl-phenol... a winemaker friend ran me through all their faults once).
> 
> Delicious though. Should have kept one for culturing...




Great story dig. I reckon Les the Weizguy might have a culture from the old JS Weizen. Were all the batches infected or just one?


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## Darren (6/6/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Just thinking about Darren's warning about how hard it is to kill off brett - specifically in kegs.
> 
> Fair call that chemically it might be hard to sort it out, but surely boiling water is going to kill brett no matter what? Valves, lids, seals all into a big pot of water and boil the bejeezus out of them for half an hour. Doesn't matter what nooks and crannys the yeasties are hiding in, 100 is gonna do for them. The boiling water then goes into the already normally sanitized keg for a good swirl around and a follow up with another round of sanitiser.
> 
> ...



Boil a keg, boil a dip-tube?? As Dig reported, it only takes single cells to make it through. Thirsty, by your reckoning no-one should need sanitiser ever. Just boil everything.

You cannot be that naive surely??

cheers

Darren


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## ausdb (6/6/08)

Darren said:


> Boil a keg, boil a dip-tube?? As Dig reported, it only takes single cells to make it through. Thirsty, by your reckoning no-one should need sanitiser ever. Just boil everything.
> 
> You cannot be that naive surely??
> 
> ...


I don't think it's that far beyond the capabilities of most AGer's with half a brain and a decent sized kettle to be able to boil a keg or a dip tube even if it has to be done in stages, why not be positive for once? Same as for doing some caustic / acid cycles to knock it on its backside. I am sure MS didn't consign that bright beer tank to the scrap heap or did they


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## warrenlw63 (7/6/08)

Probably a worthless contribution to this thread... However.

I added Orval dregs to a Saison once it was fully fermented out, gave it time in the keg (around 3 months) to chew away, bottled the resultant Saison with the standard 6g per litre of priming sugar.

:excl: Here's where it gets a little tricky, the first bottle or two was fine with maybe a slightly over-zealous carbonation. Subsequent bottles got very violent to the point of not being able to pour them without a mass of foam.

They were bottled in champagne bottles which I guess are able to withstand high pressure. Heard a loud bang down the garage and realised there's only so much pressure they can withstand.

Quickly disposed of the remaining lethal weapons by breaking them in the bin. I dare say if brett can rupture a champagne bottle it needs to be respected.  

Warren -


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## Thirsty Boy (7/6/08)

Darren said:


> Boil a keg, boil a dip-tube?? As Dig reported, it only takes single cells to make it through. Thirsty, by your reckoning no-one should need sanitiser ever. Just boil everything.
> 
> You cannot be that naive surely??
> 
> ...



No Darren, I didn't suggest that did I?

I suggested boiling the parts that are complex in shape and small, and suggested double sanitising and washing out with boiling water the parts that are all smooth stainless steel. If the brett can survive that, screw it, it deserves to live.

There are almost certainly hundreds or thousands of wild yeast cells on anything whatsover that has been exposed to non-sterile filtered air... are those cells somehow less durable than brett? Or is it only safe to expose fermentors and bottle and fill kegs in a hepa filtered positive pressure room?

All I am saying is that Brett might be a bit tougher than your average yeasty and a bit of extra care in sanitation beyond your normal regime might be required ... but its not a super bug and its hardly necessary to nuke everything thats ever been in contact with the stuff.

Or there wouldn't be a single brewery or winery in the land that was able to operate.... well, except for Orval anyway.

Oh, and if you could boil everything, you wouldn't need sanitiser would you?


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## head (7/6/08)

I see the recomendations for the bleech or boiling options here.......Does the sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide approach work with Brett and Lacto or do you need to attack the stuff with bleech to clean out fermenters and kegs.

Also, on the bleech front, isn't it supposed to do bad stuff to stainless?


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## Darren (7/6/08)

Thirsty Boy said:


> There are almost certainly hundreds or thousands of wild yeast cells on anything whatsover that has been exposed to non-sterile filtered air... are those cells somehow less durable than brett? Or is it only safe to expose fermentors and bottle and fill kegs in a hepa filtered positive pressure room?
> 
> All I am saying is that Brett might be a bit tougher than your average yeasty and a bit of extra care in sanitation beyond your normal regime might be required ... but its not a super bug and its hardly necessary to nuke everything thats ever been in contact with the stuff.



TB,

I think you are missing the point. Not sure if you did microbiology 101 but hot water is a very ineffective sanitiser, especially over large metal surfaces

I never said Brett was a super bug what I am saying is that if you intentionally culture Brett (or any other spoilage organism) and run it through your equipment there is certainly an increased chance of infected subsequent batches. 

cheers

Darren


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## kirem (7/6/08)

The main issue is that Brettanomyces or more correctly Dekkera produces very distinctive flavours and aromas. It can also survive in low nutrient environments when other yeasts have well and truly given up and it can survive in high alcohol environments. A lot of spoilage yeasts do not like alcohol.

The main reason Dekkera gets a bad name in wineries is it is almost impossible to remove from oak. It can use cellulose as a carbon source and just keeps on living.

It is fundamentally a very difficult yeast to remove from your environment once it is present.

If you get some wild yeast species fermenting in your beer they normally die off at low alcohol levels and leave little flavour/aroma behind. Saccharomyces out competes them and continue to use up nutrients and carbon sources long after these other yeasts have died. The same happens with Dekkera and Saccharomyces. After Saccharomyces has given up, Dekkera is in an ideal environment.

My experience with it is in an academic and in an wine industry environment. and I wouldn't let it loose near my gear.


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## brendanos (7/6/08)

Darren said:


> Boil a keg, boil a dip-tube?? As Dig reported, it only takes single cells to make it through. Thirsty, by your reckoning no-one should need sanitiser ever. Just boil everything.
> 
> You cannot be that naive surely??
> 
> ...



That's what organic breweries do.


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## Thirsty Boy (7/6/08)

Darren said:


> TB,
> 
> I think you are missing the point. Not sure if you did microbiology 101 but hot water is a very ineffective sanitiser, especially over large metal surfaces
> 
> ...



Fair point - even though I like to argue with you.... I can't argue with that.

Kirk - Thanks for that. Although I technically "knew" all that, I hadn't had the necessary train of thought to assemble it into such a succinct explanation that makes so much sense. I consider myself slightly more educated than I was before.

I'm still not particularly frightened of Brett, but at least now I am prepared for the fact that I might discover in an unfortunate way, that I was just an overconfident douchbag.

Thirsty


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## kirem (7/6/08)

The other thing to be mindful of is there are a large number of strains. Their is a strain isolated from lemonade.

Some of the strains produce quite a nice character. The ratio of 4ep:4eg:4ec and 4vp:4vg:4ec and fatty acids give each strain a different character.

Here is a nice article related to beer;

http://www.brewbasement.com/cellaring-scie...k-in-your-beer/


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## kevo (7/6/08)

Will aging a 'bretted' beer in a fermenter with an air lock before bottling help to minimise the chance of bottle bombs?

If CO2 can be expelled through an air lock over an extended period, then bottled and carbonated, hopefully most of the sugars might be consumed - would this decrease the chances of grenades? 

Would hydrometer readings be helpful with this over time? Once the SG has reached a suitable low, prime and bottle.

The batch I have I'm planning to age for a considerable amount of time and then bottle in champagne bottles.

Any thoughts?

Kev


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## dig (7/6/08)

Sorry guys, a few replies:

Mika - Nah, it didn't take five years to clean the brewery; a brewery is _never_ clean (at least never clean enough)

Goat - Just one batch affected. The bbt may have been contaminated for some time but all the 'bright' beers go though a sterile filter pack on their way to the filler, so it was only the unfiltered wheat beer that was packed straight from the tank that had a problem. And I recall now that it wasn't a 'Mad Brewers' beers.

Ausdb - Nah, the bbts are all still there (the last time I looked). Cleaned with acid and nuked with proxitane. Job done.


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## brendanos (7/6/08)

Well at least the death of the wheat beer spawned the golden ale (or so I was told at the time), and that has to be a good thing, right?


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## Stuster (7/6/08)

Kev, definitely a good idea to give the brett some time to chomp through the things it's going to eat before bottling. I did a brett porter last year and gave it six months in secondary with the brett. I still have a few bottles and have opened a few recently. None are over-carbonated at all. I don't think you need to give it six months, but I'd say it needs at least a month if not longer to make sure you're not going to have bombs.


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## randyrob (7/6/08)

Hey Guys,

this topic has taken an interesting turn!

here's a pic i just took of a beer in secondary i added a pure brett yeast cake to about a month ago:








i thought it would be a pretty good candidate for the brett treatment becauce saccharomyces only managed to get it down to 1016,
so the brett should chew its way through a fair bit more of it and leave it a dryer bigger beer.

will be curious to see if this ends up being a house flavour seeing as i'm fermenting 6 other beers in the same space!

Cheers Rob.


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## mika (7/6/08)

Plenty of bleach in the airlock, she be sweet


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## kevo (7/6/08)

Just thinking - if I chuck some oak chips into the batch I'm doing currently - how likely is it they'll be impregnated with brett so I can just use the chips to brett a beer in the future?

Bigger contamination risk for the rest of my brews?

Kev


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## brendanos (7/6/08)

Oak chips or cubes are a great way to keep brett. They love living in/feeding off oak, and i recall an american craft brewery (new belgium?) recently giving away innoculated oak cubes as a prize in a competition.


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## kevo (8/6/08)

Once dried, how much of a contamination risk would 'bretted' oak chips/cubes be?

kev


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## neonmeate (8/6/08)

Stuster said:


> I did a brett porter last year



DAMN that was a great beer


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