# Mash Efficiency On A Speidel Braumeister



## edubrueurope (18/12/12)

Having been brewing with a 50l braumeister for a few months using the same recipe i was wondering if anyone could check over the figures...

Grain payload - 11kg organic lager malt

Water in - 53 litres

Sparge - 12 litres

Wort to fermenter - 53 litres

Gravity - 16 Plato (i use a brix refractometer)

mash efficiency - 85% ??

Pitch 50g yeast.

The fermentation runs for 10 days down to around 7 Plato and then stops (fermenter is set at between 15 - 16 deg C).

ABV 5.5% ??

Hows it looking


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## mikk (18/12/12)

edubrueurope said:


> Having been brewing with a 50l braumeister for a few months using the same recipe i was wondering if anyone could check over the figures...
> 
> Grain payload - 11kg organic lager malt
> 
> ...



1.065 to 1.028 doesn't sound right, & is only 4.8%. FG should be well under 1.020/5 plato. 53L of 1.065 wort is 99% efficiency, so the figures that you've given appear incorrect.

12L is a big-ish sparge too- might cause some astringency in a pale lager if you're not careful.

What yeast are you using? 15-16 deg is high for a lager & low for an ale. 

How does it taste? That's the best way to judge a beer...


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## tiprya (18/12/12)

I get 86% mash efficiency every brew with my 20L. 23L mash 8L sparge.


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## mxd (18/12/12)

a little more info, what are you making

Grist
yeast
mash profile


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## adryargument (18/12/12)

mikk said:


> 1.065 to 1.028 doesn't sound right, & is only 4.8%. FG should be well under 1.020/5 plato. 53L of 1.065 wort is 99% efficiency, so the figures that you've given appear incorrect.



Are you making sure that you then convert the brix to the appropriate SG/account for the alcohol?

i.e. My beers used to finish around the 1.023 area when using the refractometer due to the alcohol % - however when using a hydrometer it would show 1.010.


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## evildrakey (18/12/12)

adryargument said:


> Are you making sure that you then convert the brix to the appropriate SG/account for the alcohol?
> 
> i.e. My beers used to finish around the 1.023 area when using the refractometer due to the alcohol % - however when using a hydrometer it would show 1.010.




Can you explain that a bit better - I've been using my refactometer for start and end gravity readings - and yeah, I thought my jump in FG was something I was doing wrong whilst mashing...


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## stux (18/12/12)

You need to use a chart/table/calculator to compensate for alcohol in the reading. You supply the calculator with be OG and FG(P) and it converts it to a real reading


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## evildrakey (18/12/12)

Stux said:


> You need to use a chart/table/calculator to compensate for alcohol in the reading. You supply the calculator with be OG and FG(P) and it converts it to a real reading



Is there such a beast in Beersmith 2 or do i have to look elsewhere?

Oh and Stux... You're always answering my questions... You're stalking me aren't you...
Or is it beer-fueled man-love???


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## mxd (18/12/12)

evildrakey said:


> Is there such a beast in Beersmith 2 or do i have to look elsewhere?




there is under tools refactomer I think, you enter fermeting ?? then you SG then your current brix to get a current G.


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## Malted (18/12/12)

I am led to believe that with a Braumeister, 85% efficiency for a mid range gravity brew (say around the 1.050 SG) with a sparge is considered normal. There are quite a few factors that can affect this though; my biggest one is too much flour in the grist seems to decrease my efficiency. As with pretty much any style of amateur brewing (Braumeister's are not excepted), efficiency decreases when you play at high gravity brewing.



mikk said:


> 12L is a big-ish sparge too- might cause some astringency in a pale lager if you're not careful.




It is not a big sparge for a 50L Braumeister. I believe that BIAB quite often mash at full volume (for a no sparge run), you can't do that with a Braumeister as the top of the malt pipe should not be under water/wort. With a Braumeister you have to either, sparge to account for your losses, or accept a smaller output volume. Having said that I'm sceptical of the volumes the OP has quoted. 

Here is how it _might _go:

Mash in 53L.
12L sparge. He has 11Kg of grain so you would expect about 11L loss to grain (absorbed by the grain).

Now we have 54L pre boil. 
We might lose 10% to the 60 minute boil (54L -5.4L).

Now we have 48.6L post boil. 
We might even lose 4% to cooling (the cool wort takes up less space than the hot wort. 48.6L - 1.94L). 

Now we have 46.66L of cooled wort. How much are we going to lose to kettle trub before it goes to the fermenter? Let's say about 2L.

Now we have *44.66L* of wort into the fermenter, not 53L. If he got 43L into the fermenter, I'd find that plausible. To get 53L volume he would need an additional sparge of 8.34 L for a total sparge of 20.34L. 

The malt pipe will hold quite a lot of sugars amongst the grist. My understanding of astringent tannins being extracted from sparging has more to do with the temp of the sparge water (i.e. too hot) and the gravity at which the sparge comes out. IIRC Isn't it thought to be about 1.010 SG where tannin extraction from the grain husks might occur most rapidly? I have sparged my 50L malt pipe with about 20L in total and the last runnings were still around 1.020 SG. Caveat being that I quite often extra-sparge over a bucket to collect runnings to top up the boil should I be short on volume near the end of the boil. You could even extra-sparge over a bucket to collect additional wort for yeast starters. 

*edubrueurope* - how do you get losses of only one litre, or did you mean 43L, not 53L into the fermenter?


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## stux (18/12/12)

evildrakey said:


> Is there such a beast in Beersmith 2 or do i have to look elsewhere?
> 
> Oh and Stux... You're always answering my questions... You're stalking me aren't you...
> Or is it beer-fueled man-love???



Yep, refractometer tool, and re stalking, I just stalk the latest threads block. Maybe you post when I check


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## Hadrian (18/12/12)

Malted said:


> believe that BIAB quite often mash at full volume (for a no sparge run), you can't do that with a Braumeister as the top of the malt pipe should not be under water/wort.




Hi Malted what is the reason you can't have the malt pipe submerged with wort?


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## seamad (18/12/12)

I think,at least with my ghetto one, that you couldnt dough in and keep the grain in the pipe.


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## Florian (18/12/12)

You can always add water after the grain's in. Have done that once, more by accident than anything else, but had no negative effects as far as i could tell. You obviously dont get the nice wort over flow.


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## edubrueurope (18/12/12)

> Here is how it might go:
> 
> Mash in 53L.
> 12L sparge. He has 11Kg of grain so you would expect about 11L loss to grain (absorbed by the grain).
> ...


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## Thefatdoghead (18/12/12)

1.5 hr boil ill boil off 10 L and 7 plato is 1.028 (get a hydro). If it were my BM you would end up with 44 L of cooled wort at the end of the boil. 53-11=42, 42+12=54, 54-10 (1.5 hr boil off 7L per hr) =44, 44-4=40L. Get a hydro and save yourself the trouble of using charts for you brix meter after fermentation. 
If I want 50L into the fermentor i'll rinse the grains with about 22L of 84 degree water.


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## Malted (19/12/12)

Hadrian said:


> Hi Malted what is the reason you can't have the malt pipe submerged with wort?



=



seamad said:


> I think,at least with my ghetto one, that you couldnt dough in and keep the grain in the pipe.





Florian said:


> You can always add water after the grain's in. Have done that once, more by accident than anything else, but had no negative effects as far as i could tell. You obviously dont get the nice wort over flow.



:super:


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## Damien13 (19/12/12)

Of interest, when you Brau legends are collecting extra runnings, what type of bucket/collection recepticle do you use???


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## Malted (19/12/12)

edubrueurope said:


> Thanks for all your comments.... sorry, maybe i didnt give enough info!
> Malt - hand milled on a corona set at 1.2mm
> 53 litres water in
> 12 litre sparge at 65 deg C
> ...


You are getting good OG & FG. 
If it works for you, then nothing is wrong. 

As Gav80 has suggested, you may need MORE sparge if you want a greater bottling volume. But that is up to you. If you are happy with what you are getting, then continue doing that.

Sparging is best done in small amounts over a period of time, don't dump the whole amount in all at once. Lift the malt pipe up, let it sit above the wort and start the boil sequence. It will take a period of time to reach boiling temperature, perhaps 1/2 hr or so. This is when you can sparge 2L or so at a time, wait till it is almost drained and repeat until you have used the total sparge amount. 

How to drain the malt pipe into a bucket. 
The malt pipe is bigger than any bucket I have. Sit the BM lid upside down on the bucket with one of the vents in the bucket. Sit the malt pipe on the lid so that it covers that vent - this will drain/funnel the runnings into the bucket regardless of the size of the bucket. You throw some extra sparge water at it and drain into multiple vessels if you want to check the gravity of what comes through on each occasion you add sparge water. Drain into one bucket, check gravity, tip wort into 2nd bucket, sparge into 1st bucket, check gravity, tip into 2nd bucket to top up the volume, repeat for as long as you like (depending upon gravity of runnings). Boil these extra runnings in a pot on the stove/bbq etc to sterilise it and reduce the volume to increase the gravity to about 1.040 (10 plato) when cooled to around 20oC. _Note_ gravity varies with temperature.

Commonly folks will then freeze this extra wort to be used for starters at a later time (eg to get the yeast ready for the next as yet unbrewed batch).


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## Malted (19/12/12)

Damien13 said:


> Of interest, when you Brau legends are collecting extra runnings, what type of bucket/collection recepticle do you use???



I have outlined the process above but to add to that, any robust* food grade bucket will do. 

*So it can take the weight of the malt pipe full of wet grain.


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## Malted (19/12/12)

Gav80 said:


> 1.5 hr boil ill boil off 10 L and 7 plato is 1.028 (get a hydro).



You have to correct for the alcohol; fermented or unfermented plato tells different stories. 7 plato of fermented wort is 1.010 SG. 7 plato of unfermented wort is 1.028 SG. 
So he is getting 1.066 OG and 1.010 FG - sounds pretty good to me. If anything I would advocate more sprage (as Gav80 has suggested) so that it is not quite as alcoholic.


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## tiprya (19/12/12)

Big-W 19L pot is perfect for the 20L malt pipe. The pegs hold it just above the bottom, and you can leave it to drain. I normally throw those in the boil.


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## Stormahead (17/1/13)

+1 for the BigW pot..made to fit

My efficiency with the 20L has been suffering around the 65-70% mark. I believe a poor malt crush is to blame as previously using pre-crushed malt was yielding 80%+

I used to do a sparge but never found it to be worth the effort since you'd need to heat some water separately which spoils the automation of the process (why else do you buy one to begin with)


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## glenwal (17/1/13)

Stormahead said:


> My efficiency with the 20L has been suffering around the 65-70% mark. <snip> I used to do a sparge but never found it to be worth the effort


Are you sure these 2 aren't related? Did your efficency start suffering when you stopped sparging?


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## tiprya (17/1/13)

I got an 8L urn for $50, set it up to heat water to mid 70's, just fill it up and whack it on when the mash starts to ramp to mash out temps.

Works well, but I can understand if you can't be bothered. You'd probably get pretty similar efficiency from adding the extra 8L to the mash (assuming it would fit).

Perhaps I will try a no-sparge next time.


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## Stormahead (7/2/13)

Glen W said:


> Are you sure these 2 aren't related? Did your efficency start suffering when you stopped sparging?


Pretty sure. I sparged on the last two brews and it made no noticable difference. 

I think its more in line with Malted's comments before about too much flour in the grist giving lower eff. I need to work more on the crush and possibly the mash profile.

I had better results with the default profile (55/63/72/78) than just a single infusion.


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## DeGarre (13/2/13)

Stormahead said:


> ...
> 
> I think its more in line with Malted's comments before about too much flour in the grist giving lower eff. I need to work more on the crush and possibly the mash profile....


I've had a couple of brews now using a ready crushed pale ale and there is a lot of flour in the grist. So much that I've had to increase the mashing times longer to circulate longer in order to get clear wort and still it stays muddier than before. And I still get the usual 89% mash efficiency with 26 litres mash and 6 litres rinse (slowly for 20-25 minutes).


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## Stormahead (13/2/13)

I just did another brew with a step mash (using the default program rather than a single infusion for 60 mins). Performed a sparge with 7L and ended up with around 78% this time.

Now to work out if it was the sparging or the mash schedule thats given a decent boost

Given that I never used to sparge or worry about mash pH when hitting 80%+, I'm leaning towards the mash schedule giving a better conversion.


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## tiprya (13/2/13)

It's much more likely to be a poor crush or pH than the mash schedule.


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## Batz (13/2/13)

tiprya said:


> It's much more likely to be a poor crush or pH than the mash schedule.



I'm going for PH.


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## Stormahead (13/2/13)

Interesting.

Without a working pH meter and recorded pH from before and after, its going to be speculative at best.

On a side note, thanks to an OCD mother in law, I might stick to pH strips instead.


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