# First ever brew, need cider advice



## Jordansr (26/10/14)

So, I am completely new to the whole homebrewing thing. I've been wanting to do it for a while but I only turned 18 2 weeks ago. My dad brought me a Black Rock Cider kit from Dave's homebrew store, and there were a few questions I have:

1. Should I just stick to the simple outline for the first batch with no additives? Because I was thinking of adding some cinnamon and honey, just because I've never had the opportunity to actually tailor the taste before and I thought that would go well.
2. If I change the yeast for a yeast with higher alcohol tolerance and add more fermentable sugar to adjust, will the alcohol content be the only thing that changes?
3. If I want some degree of sweetness, is it better to just use unfermentable sugar to add that degree of sweetness, or is it better to add more fermentable sugar than the yeast is physically capable of converting to ethanol (Due to limited alcohol tolerance)?
4. Should I use the carbonation drops, or is there a better way of carbonating the cider?
5. Where should I store the fermentation vessel? Should it go in the space under the house, or can I just leave it in my room?
6. How do I keep the temperature from killing the fermentation in this heat?
7. If I'm leaving on holidays for 5 days on the 30th (Finishing HSC 28th), can I leave it unattended after starting for those couple days?

I know it's a lot of questions (Completely clueless about the processes atm, but read the cider starting thread), so they don't all have to be answered, any advice at all is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance guys


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## Jordansr (26/10/14)

Also, still living in the theoretical world with no practice under the belt, what is the problem with high temperatures? In chem (I know, theory not practice) they taught use that yeast converts sugars to ethanol most effectively at temps of 35C, so does the temp itself kill the yeast or does it do something undesirable to the products?


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## TimT (26/10/14)

No, the higher temp just causes the yeast to make undesirable flavours and aromas. At lower temps, around 20 degrees, the yeast is more well behaved  Avoid honey for this brew; you won't end up with much of a honey flavour - the honey will almost entirely ferment out. Cinnamon addition is possible but for this first go, why not just go with a plain cider and see what you think of the taste?


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## superstock (26/10/14)

I agree with TimT, keep the first one simple. Possibley use raw or brown sugar instead of white sugar or dextrose. Ferment as cool as possible. It will ferment very dry, but I think the BR kit comes with a flavour pouch and a sweetener. (never used a BR kit so could be wrong. Look up swamp cooler to cool it.


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## Airgead (26/10/14)

Re high temps -

yes yeast will metabolise sugars to ethanol more quickly at higher temps. The whole yeast metabolism speeds up to an optimal point around 30C. The problem is that at those temps, the yeast gets lazy and instead of cleaning up nicely after its self, it spit out a whole bunch of other stuff from intermediate stages in the sugar->ethanol pathway.

So in practice you get a really fast fermentation (couple of days) but your beer/cider is full of aldyhydes, higher alcohols, esters and other junk that detract from the brew.

Short answer - its fast but tastes nasty.

Cheers
Dave


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## TimT (26/10/14)

To answer questions 2 and 3. Ciders tend to ferment out quite dry because of the concentration of fermented sugars in the apple juice. So in that respect it doesn't matter so much what yeast you use. Adding so much sugar that the yeast stops working before it's all fermented out is a technique in some wines, but not cider so much (it would change the quality and character of the cider too much). Good thinking though.

Some brewers here use unfermentable sugars; I never bother with my cider as I try to make it from apples that have enough flavour in them (tannins/unfermentable sugar/acids) to give a special quality to the final brew. Again, I wouldn't bother with Black Rock cider - I've made some and it has enough flavour on its own. If, on fermenting, you find you don't like the flavour you can always use it as a punch base anyway.


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## Jordansr (29/10/14)

Thanks for the quick replies guys. How do most people around here keep the temperatures low enough in the summer heat?


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## TimT (29/10/14)

A lot of folks have more advanced methods than me and will use a brew fridge or even (conceivably) a tub of cool water.

I just do a season-appropriate brew and try to use the right yeast. I find that inside, mostly, temperatures stay around 20 and won't go much higher - except in summer. That's good for most brews.

I don't think you'd have too many problems with a cider, to be honest. Find a cool shady corner of the house that will stay a fairly steady temperature and let it ferment away.


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## Airgead (29/10/14)

I brew my ciders from fresh apples so I'm brewing at harvest time - autumn when temps are getting low. they ferment slowly over autumn and winter and are ready to drink in the spring. 

if you brew from juice you don't have to be so seasonal but then you have the challenge of maintaining a low temp. For my beers I have a dedicated fermenting fridge with a temp controller. A lot of cider guys do the same.

Cheers
dave


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## Jordansr (29/10/14)

If we have this ancient fridge at home that none of us use anymore, do you think it's worth cleaning it up a bit and hacking a thermostat into it?


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## Airgead (29/10/14)

Yep. If it still works it could make a good fermentation fridge. 

The sponsors sell pretty good temp controllers as well.


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## Jordansr (29/10/14)

Sponsors?


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## fraser_john (29/10/14)

Airgead said:


> if you brew from juice you don't have to be so seasonal but then you have the challenge of maintaining a low temp.


Fermenting from juice(e.g. Aldi, Costco), especially pasteurised, means little(none?) chance of getting a malo fermentation which will smooth out the malic acid content of the juice.


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## Crouch (29/10/14)

Jordansr said:


> Sponsors?


These are commonly retailers who support the site and in turn many of us shop with them ... they are generally called sponsors.

I'd also agree that keeping it simple and not worrying about adjuncts at this stage, just do the regular kit by itself. Look up some threads on STC1000's also, these are temperature controlling units that can be rigged up to your fridge that control the temperature inside ... either switching on the fridge when the temperature increases above your set point, or switching on a heater when it drops below. I brewed for years before actually worrying too much about temperature control, perhaps that's why my beers were never very good 

Good luck, have fun and welcome to the rabbit hole.


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## burrster (29/10/14)

A fair bit has already been said so I may repeat some of it. Firstly My personal experience with the black rock cider kit was not so good. If your going to ferment this kit, I'd recommend putting a few extra litres of apple juice in with it(4 - 6), at a minimum, for extra flavour. forget the honey as it won't add much, and will add to the cost. Leave the cinnamon out until you know what it's like without it. AS long as your adding apple juice stick to dextrose as your sugar addition, it's clean fermenting, and leaves no unwanted taste.

Don't try for High alcohol just yet just keep it simple until you have a good technique. I know you've just turned 18 but most of us here prefer to drink a few brews, rather than just one, that knocks you out. based on this, stick with the kit yeast until you've got your technique.

Sweetness is easiet acheived(with best taste results) IMO, by adding extra juice to your glass when you drink your cider

Carb drops are a good easy way to start. I find bulk priming is me prefered method, again once you've got the hang of brewing.

Store the vessel in a place where it will stay as close to 20 degrees as you can.

Assuming a good temperature for the days your away,its fine to leave unattended.

Airgead best explained the high reason why we don't brew at higher temperatures.

Learn about sanitation, This is key in producing good, consistent results.

Learn about yeast re hydration too, as I believe this reduces unwanted flavours.

As soon as your able, get the temperature controller and rig it to your fridge, you won't ever regret it, as Temp control is a large factor in the quality of your brew. 

If your looking for a semi decent kit cider, I like the Mangrove Jacks range, and have had far better luck with them, but they do cost more.


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## indica86 (29/10/14)

Sweetening home cider is VERY difficult.
You need to search for a yeast that leaves residual sugar/ fruit flavour.
I have used http://vintnersharvest.com/products/vintners-harvest-wine-yeast-sn9 with success. 
The other options are artificial/ non fermentable sweeteners/ sugars or crash chilling and kegging.

The Blackrock kit is great, bin the yeast and get something better.
They drink very well after sometime in the bottle.


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## Jordansr (4/11/14)

Thanks again for all the advice, I just thought of another question... Around the forum a lot of people seem to advocate lower temperatures to avoid ester production, which coincides with what everybody has said ^ above about unwanted metabolic by-products etc. so that's all good... But aren't esters the aroma molecules that provide the scents of other fruits and foods in the cider (Like they do citrus (For example) notes in wine)? Or is it rather that esters are produced at all temperatures, but the esters produced at higher temperatures are unattractive?


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## manticle (4/11/14)

Mostly about the balance and amount. Additinally other unpleasant and headache inducing compounds are encouraged at high temperatures.


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## MrChoat (4/11/14)

Jordansr said:


> Thanks again for all the advice, I just thought of another question... Around the forum a lot of people seem to advocate lower temperatures to avoid ester production, which coincides with what everybody has said ^ above about unwanted metabolic by-products etc. so that's all good... But aren't esters the aroma molecules that provide the scents of other fruits and foods in the cider (Like they do citrus (For example) notes in wine)? Or is it rather that esters are produced at all temperatures, but the esters produced at higher temperatures are unattractive?


Ester profiles depend on a lot of things. In some beers, like Belgians, the strain of yeast can be fermented at a higher temp for the flavours that particular strain produces. As an example, Belgian abbey produces banana flavours around 25c, but clove flavours around 20c. Other yeasts leave very little flavour of their own. 

Citrus and other flavours are mostly derived from hop additions in beers. A lot of ales and ciders will have the flavour profile from the ingredients rather than relying on the yeast to make those flavours. 

For ciders, you are using a clean fermenting yeast to let the flavours naturally in the apples come through. Different yeasts have different flavour profiles that they will produce at different temperatures. This is all information you can deal with down the track.

For now, do what these guys recommend. Follow the instructions on the kit. If you want to use honey, bottle half the batch with honey in place of priming sugar or carbonation drops and see the difference that makes.


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## Jordansr (9/11/14)

So I started the cider with just the simple method and some tea because on a few of the other posts people recommend tea for tannins. About 8 hours later the surface was covered in a really fine foam of bubbles, but I went to sleep and woke up and the foam was gone, and there were just really fine bubbles rising to the surface of the cider. A little concerned, because in some of the photos I've seen there have been really thick layers of foam, and there hasn't been much airlock "activity" so to speak, or if there has been it hasn't been frequent enough for me to witness, but rather I have noticed the water levels in the airlock bubbles changing. Is something wrong or is it all good?


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## indica86 (9/11/14)

Sounds like ti is doing what it should.
Little to no foam - with beer "krausen" - on a cider is normal.
Airlock bubbling or not can indicate a leak somewhere - no issue there either.


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## Jordansr (9/11/14)

Checked for leaks and couldn't find any, but I resealed the lid anyway... I'm using the "junior" airlock and a 30 litre plastic carboy fermenter if that makes any difference. Thanks for all the help


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## Airgead (9/11/14)

All good. Cider often doesn't have much foam. Had to do with the lower protein content. And the different stains of yeast.

Cheers
Dave


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## MastersBrewery (9/11/14)

MJ M79, ferment to 1020, crash chill, keg, carb, and serve, job done!


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## Jordansr (11/11/14)

Guys, not really sure what to make of this. Was looking at the cider through the fermenter walls with a flashlight and saw this weird mass of bubbles, so I took a picture. Looks kinda similar to the foam people get on beers, but I started this on Saturday, so surely if it was the yeast it would have appeared before now? When I took the lid off to take a picture it sounded really bubbly, like a trickling stream sort of sound but I couldn't see any more bubbles / larger bubbles than usual making their way to the surface... Is this some sort of contamination or is it all good?


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## Jordansr (12/11/14)

Also, when I put the lid back on I got two big bubbles through the airlock... I'm confident it wasn't due to the action of the lid screwing back down and the resulting pressure change because it happened a few seconds afterwards... But it also didn't happen again.


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## Jordansr (12/11/14)

It certainly smelt like cider though.


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## indica86 (12/11/14)

Jordansr said:


> Also, when I put the lid back on


Shouldn't take the lid off, it leaves you vulnerable to infection.
Take a sample through the tap. If it smells like cider and tastes like cider... it is fine.


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## Grott (12/11/14)

Hi Jordansr. In my experience I've found cider fermentation to be slow and long. Bubbles is a good indicator everything is ok, don't worry about the airlock but you mentioned the level has moved therefore all is good.
Cheers


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## Airgead (12/11/14)

Looks perfectly normal to me. Chillax...have a few brews and let it do its thing.


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## TimT (12/11/14)

Resist the temptation to take off the airlock too much and fiddle to try and make things go better. You're playing the long game here. Let the yeast go through the fermentation over a few weeks. You'll be fine.

When you fiddle with an airlock you'll normally get the bubbling happen because you're altering the pressure or some shit like that. You can also get a similar effect by just giving the upper part of the fermenter a cuddle - you'll change the heat inside, making the gas expand.


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## Jordansr (17/11/14)

Cheers guys. Final stages of fermenting here, SG sitting at around 1.009 so just gonna monitor it and wait until it stalls. Few final questions for next time:

Safale S-04 is a top fermenting yeast, but for the entire fermentation all of the yeast has been sitting at the bottom in a 1cm thick sediment, save for the few little clumps floating around in solution, and the day that yeasty foam appeared up top. Temperatures have actually been a bit high, sitting between 20-22C so why would it still be on the bottom?

When racking the cider, is the best result to have a crystal clear liquid, or does that not leave enough yeast in solution to bottle condition?

When I lifted the (Plastic) carboy up to move it a little, there was a ring of cider where it had been in contact with the surface it was sitting on. Is this normal, or is this + no airlock a clear indication of a leak somewhere?



TimT said:


> To answer questions 2 and 3. Ciders tend to ferment out quite dry because of the concentration of fermented sugars in the apple juice. So in that respect it doesn't matter so much what yeast you use. Adding so much sugar that the yeast stops working before it's all fermented out is a technique in some wines, but not cider so much (it would change the quality and character of the cider too much). Good thinking though.


I have no doubt you know far more about this than I, but I'm still curious about this one; I was browsing the mead sections of the forum and noted a lot of them retain sweetness by adding too much sugar to their solutions. So why is it appropriate for wines and meads but not for ciders?


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## fraser_john (18/11/14)

Has any one used the Costco Kirkland apple juice before?

Mine has turned out pretty darn good, waiting on some malo cultures to remove some of the malic acid sourness, but it has lots of good apple flavour and aroma. I was surprised to find this given the comments around making cider from juice. All I can think of is that this particular juice is made with a decent variety of apples rather than just golden delicious or some other ordinary variety?


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## TimT (18/11/14)

I phrased my response badly. It should be 'concentration of _fermentable_ sugars in the apple juice'. Personally I wouldn't add so much sugar to the cider as what you'd end up with would be a high alcohol wine with faint apple characteristics. And you shouldn't need it. There's enough flavour in traditional apple varieties to give you a well-rounded cider - and given age, it will develop sweetness anyway.

With mead, not so much a problem - because you don't actually *add* sugar to the mead. You calculate how much alcohol the yeast will tolerate, and then work out how much honey to add so that there will be a remaining honey sweetness - so what you get is *all* honey character. But again, the other vital ingredient is age. I've just finished off a bottle of my Hippocras (honey + grape juice). For a few months after it fermented it was quite dry, rather tasteless, and very disappointing. Now, strangely and wonderfully, it's developed a new sweetness, has lost its rough alcohol edge, and makes a beautiful dessert drink.


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## TimT (18/11/14)

Oh - and re: this:

_Safale S-04 is a top fermenting yeast, but for the entire fermentation all of the yeast has been sitting at the bottom in a 1cm thick sediment, save for the few little clumps floating around in solution, and the day that yeasty foam appeared up top. Temperatures have actually been a bit high, sitting between 20-22C so why would it still be on the bottom?_

Clumps floating in the solution and yeasty foam on the first day are simply the visible signs of fermentation. That, and carbonation (rapid in the early stages, slow and lazy in the final stages). The sediment is made by yeast as it drops out of fermentation, and other solids in the solution that form or just drop out of suspension. Bear in mind that yeast is a microscopic organism and you won't always be able to see it doing its job - even if it is hard at work. The fact that the cider has dropped down to 1.009 is a good indication that the fermentation is doing its job.

Once it all calms down you'll be able to filter it off the dregs and pour something else right on top to begin another ferment


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## Jordansr (20/11/14)

Cheers guys. SG looks to be holding pretty well at 1.008/1.009 so I'll wait a day or two more and then bottle up.



TimT said:


> Once it all calms down you'll be able to filter it off the dregs and pour something else right on top to begin another ferment


So once this is done I can just dump apple juice on the stuff at the bottom and start another one? Sounds pretty efficient


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## Jordansr (8/12/14)

SG dropped all the way to 1.000 in the end. Just bottled them all, thinking I would be happier calling what is in the bottles a learning experience than I would cider at this point. Temp was too high for the most part, think I may have left it too long on the yeast because it ended up with a vegemite-ey flavor (Results of autolysis?). How much capacity for improvement does cider have once bottled?

Also, got the brewing accessories and other loose equipment in the ferment vessel soaking in a lo-suds solution at the moment. Is this the right thing to do?

Thanks


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