# Hot & Cold Break



## DKS (6/9/09)

Ive just been reading some threads on hot and cold break.
Questions are, to achieve the break is important yes? but what happens, results,effects if it goes into your fermentor?
Just looking for quick and simple answers not too much brain strain. :icon_cheers: 
Daz


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## NickB (6/9/09)

Simplest answer - some break material into the fermenter may aid in fermentation, all break material may affect your beer flavour wise. Ideal situation is either no break into the fermenter and some yeast nutrient, or some break into the fermenter and ferment as per usual.


Cheers


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## Bizier (6/9/09)

I let a fair amount of break into my fermenter due to fairly compromised brewing conditions.

I have tasted hot break, and think it is freakin' disgusting... I would remove it where possible.


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## newguy (6/9/09)

Hot break = bad, cold break = good.....or so the adage goes.


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## DKS (6/9/09)

NickB said:


> Simplest answer - some break material into the fermenter may aid in fermentation, all break material may affect your beer flavour wise. Ideal situation is either no break into the fermenter and some yeast nutrient, or some break into the fermenter and ferment as per usual.
> 
> 
> Cheers



Can you taste it like an off, tart, bitterness, cardboard or smells ?
Im a bit worried As i have no tap or filter on my kettle I often get some in the primary.


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## loikar (6/9/09)

I remember reading somewhere that hot break should come out, while cold break is neither here nor there.

Anyway, I have never strained the cold break from my Extract beers, never done an AG so never had to deal with hot break.

BF


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## mr_tyreman (6/9/09)

sorry if im hijacking, but what is hotbreak and how do i avoid it?


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## newguy (6/9/09)

Hot break is the goop that forms during the boil. It's the reason why someone with a tap on their kettle will whirlpool the wort at the end of the boil, so the hot break and hops will form a cone in the middle of the kettle so that clear wort can be drawn off from the side. Hot break is composed mainly of coagulated proteins along with some bitter hop compounds. Along with having an objectionable flavour, putting the protein from the hot break into your beer is just tempting fate when it comes to bacteria. The yeast may eat the sugars in your beer before the bacteria can, but if too much protein is present and you have a bit of bacteria, they'll happily consume that - and spoil your beer in the process.


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## matti (6/9/09)

great answers not much to add.

If you don't have a tap you can siphon the clear wort.
If you were to naturally cool your boiled wort the hot break would eventually drop again to bottom of kettle.

Kettle finings will assist the proteins the drop out of the solution faster and you can with proper care avoid any hot break go in the fermenter.


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## DKS (6/9/09)

newguy said:


> Hot break is the goop that forms during the boil. It's the reason why someone with a tap on their kettle will whirlpool the wort at the end of the boil, so the hot break and hops will form a cone in the middle of the kettle so that clear wort can be drawn off from the side. Hot break is composed mainly of coagulated proteins along with some bitter hop compounds. Along with having an objectionable flavour, putting the protein from the hot break into your beer is just tempting fate when it comes to bacteria. The yeast may eat the sugars in your beer before the bacteria can, but if too much protein is present and you have a bit of bacteria, they'll happily consume that - and spoil your beer in the process.




Yeh, newguy no tap on kettle. I cool down the wort in kettle then pour into fermentor. I dont want to pour hot because of fear of oxygen issues I leave to cool and settle 1st but always get some in there. I found this especially difficult on my last batch as I used rice for the 1st time I was left with a huge amount of bulk in the bottom of the kettle. Fitting a tap and whirlpooling it could be the answer to my latest brewing woes . :icon_cheers: 
Daz


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## newguy (7/9/09)

The tap is the most convenient way to ensure no hot break makes it to the fermenter but as someone else said you can try racking it once it has cooled as well. It's not very convenient/easy, but it works.


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## katzke (7/9/09)

newguy said:


> The tap is the most convenient way to ensure no hot break makes it to the fermenter but as someone else said you can try racking it once it has cooled as well. It's not very convenient/easy, but it works.



I use a good old fashioned clear plastic racking cane. Why because that is what I used when I brewed with extract. I would say using a cane is very easy and convenient. No need to think about where to put the tap, how to cut the hole, how to store a kettle with a tap sticking out the side, how to get that last bit of wort out that is below the tap level, how to deal with the brew that has extra break over the tap level, and cleaning the valve. Unless all your fermentors have spigots on them you already have a racking cane or auto siphon.

Not saying valves are not great things. Just saying they can be as difficult and inconvenient as a racking cane.

And as to helping with the question I use a spring clamp on the cane to control how far into the kettle it goes. That way I can transfer crystal clear wort and leave all the break behind. Actually I am a cheep brewer so get as much as I can and do not worry if I get a bit of cloudy wort in the process.

To add to the question. How does one know the difference between hot and cold break when it is all mixed up with spent hops in the cooled wort?


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## DKS (7/9/09)

katzke said:


> I use a good old fashioned clear plastic racking cane. Why because that is what I used when I brewed with extract. I would say using a cane is very easy and convenient. No need to think about where to put the tap, how to cut the hole, how to store a kettle with a tap sticking out the side, how to get that last bit of wort out that is below the tap level, how to deal with the brew that has extra break over the tap level, and cleaning the valve. Unless all your fermentors have spigots on them you already have a racking cane or auto siphon.
> 
> Not saying valves are not great things. Just saying they can be as difficult and inconvenient as a racking cane.
> 
> ...



How would I start the flow without introducing infection or getting burned if its hot wort?


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## Scruffy (7/9/09)

Make sure laws of syphon phisics are in play (high boil pot, low cube/fermenter...)
Whirlpool. Take length of quality sterilised silicone hose, dip the hose in the wort (careful not to disturb the trub) - fill hose. Cover one end. Draw the covered end out of liquid, leaving open end in the liquid. Aim at side of fermenter/cube. Fill carefully. I guess...

edited to delete a whole stuff Mills and Boon chapter of unnecessary detail...


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## DKS (7/9/09)

Scruffy said:


> Make sure laws of syphon phisics are in play (high boil pot, low cube/fermenter...)
> Whirlpool. Take length of quality sterilised silicone hose, dip the hose in the wort (careful not to disturb the trub) - fill hose. Cover one end. Draw the covered end out of liquid, leaving open end in the liquid. Aim at side of fermenter/cube. Fill carefully. I guess...
> 
> edited to delete a whole stuff Mills and Boon chapter of unnecessary detail...



Thats what I was thinking but the length of hose in the kettle would stir it up again and/or it would or could be nasty if hot.

Does anyone use one of those jiggle syphons they use for petrol?


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## mesa (7/9/09)

In the past I've started a siphon by putting the tube through the airlock hole on my fermenter and droping the air pressure using an inflatable mattress pump (which also had a deflate port). I've occasionally caused the plastic fermenter to collapse in on its self (it pops back out though). Wouldn't try it with a glass carboy obviously.

I have tried the jiggler siphons for petrol (long ago) never had much luck with them though. IIRC I was sucking up hops/break material and cloging it. Perhaps I should have waited longer for it to settle.

Last brew I put in a tap (and a march pump). Easiest solution yet.


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## hughyg (7/9/09)

katzke said:


> I use a good old fashioned clear plastic racking cane. Why because that is what I used when I brewed with extract. I would say using a cane is very easy and convenient. No need to think about where to put the tap, how to cut the hole, how to store a kettle with a tap sticking out the side, how to get that last bit of wort out that is below the tap level, how to deal with the brew that has extra break over the tap level, and cleaning the valve. Unless all your fermentors have spigots on them you already have a racking cane or auto siphon.
> 
> Not saying valves are not great things. Just saying they can be as difficult and inconvenient as a racking cane.
> 
> ...



katzke
I have a racking cane. I usually use it to rack from the cooled kettle and leave the goobs behind. Should I whirlpool? Or is that only if I have a valve on the kettle?
Hugh


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## tdack (7/9/09)

DKS said:


> How would I start the flow without introducing infection or getting burned if its hot wort?



Fill the length of hose with some cooled boiled water. The little bit of water in your hose won't make a great deal of difference to the final gravity sitting in the cube. And as the other post said, stick your thumb over one end to keep the water in while you put the open end in the hot wort. Then quickly remove thumb and place that end in the cube, it'll start all on its own.

I found notching a couple of small triangles out of the open end allowed me to just put that end on the bottom of the pot against the wall where it sucked itself down. It slows down the syphon a bit but I only need to hold a hot hose in the pot as the liquid gets close to the bottom.


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## Thirsty Boy (7/9/09)

katzke said:


> To add to the question. How does one know the difference between hot and cold break when it is all mixed up with spent hops in the cooled wort?



The hot break will have settled mostly to the bottom - unless you have left your wort to stand for multiple hours -- the cold break will still largely be in suspension. Cold break particles are very small and take an excessively long time to settle - this is why commercial brewers who do try to separat it out (mostly German lager brewers) primarily do so by a flotation technique.

When homebrewers "think" they have allowed the cold break to settle out in their cooled kettle, mostly what has happened is that they have just waited for long enough so that more hot break has settled more effectively. A good whirlpool or settling rest will get rid of "most" of the hotbreak and a very small proportion of the coldbreak. You would need an overnight plus rest to be removing any significant amount of coldbreak.

Yeast performance is the last reason you should consider in this argument - hot break does it no good at all, cold break will be present in significant enough amounts no matter how had you try to get rid of it - and decently healthy and active yeast doesn't need the nutrients in coldbreak anyway - it is able to synthesize certain nutritional requirements from the break material if it needs to... but if you have good healthy yeast and well oxygenated wort, it wont need to.

TB


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## katzke (8/9/09)

hughyg said:


> katzke
> I have a racking cane. I usually use it to rack from the cooled kettle and leave the goobs behind. Should I whirlpool? Or is that only if I have a valve on the kettle?
> Hugh



Cool label.

Thanks TB for the answer on break material.

I would think twice before siphoning boiling hot wort. I have not had to do it as I have a chiller, lots of lawn to water, and the water to do it with. I have read that stainless racking canes are available to you and work better then the plastic ones. Hose that will take the heat is also important.

I try and do the whirlpool but not sure if I am doing it correctly. It does seem to pile up in the middle so seems to be working. Having more piled in the middle lets the cane go down on the side and I leave less wort behind. I am a firm believer in do what works for you. It could be that I get more from just letting the kettle set for the 10 to 15 minutes or longer to let everything settle out. I also use a block to tip my entire brew stand to one side. I think it helps to get more wort with a cane. Last I do not sweat if I get some gunk when I transfer. That may be one thing that I will change in my quest for perfect beer.

As to how to start a siphon it has been covered. The only thing I can add is I keep a spray bottle of StarSan around and spray the hose inside and out as well as my hands. I do not put the water in the fermentor. I catch it or let it go on the ground using my thumb to start and stop the flow. I just use tap water.


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## Thirsty Boy (8/9/09)

The other thing I forgot to mention - is that cold break is a nasty brown colour and hotbreak is kinda white looking. The brown goo that rises to the top of your fermenter when C02 first starts to evolve.... cold break!

Starting a siphon - I use a turkey baster. Squeeze the end of the hose into a Z shape so its kinked shut, squish it. Squeeze the air out of your turkey baster, shove it in the end of the hose, unsquish the kink - suck with turkey baster. If its not enough to get the wort flowing first time... squeeze shut the hose again and give it another suck.

Baster, hands and hose all wet with no rinse sanitiser of course

TB


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## avaneyk (8/9/09)

I bought a syphon from my LHBS thats meant for racking wine. It has a plastic cane section that goes into my cooled wort in the brew pot (I use an immersion chiller made from copper pipe). This cane section is connected to a hose with a tap on the end and has plastic pump thing in the middle. 

To start the syphon, you close the tap and squeeze the plastic pump section, then put the cane into your wort and let go of the pump. This sucks wort into the hose. Then you open the tap and point the hose at your fermenter.

Works well for me.

Andrew

{edit: spelling}


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## Nick JD (9/9/09)

In cubes, does the hot break settle out completely?

I get the spoon out and scrape the developing foam just on boil ... am I removing the hot break before it drops?


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## hazard (9/9/09)

AndrewSA said:


> To start the syphon, you close the tap and squeeze the plastic pump section, then put the cane into your wort and let go of the pump. This sucks wort into the hose. Then you open the tap and point the hose at your fermenter.
> 
> Works well for me.



I have a plastic racking cane, and length of PVC - only rack after wort has cooled down. I tried filling tube and cane with water but too hard, so i just suck till I get a flow and drop the end of the tube in the fermenter. Course, I always brush my teeth first  . I've never tried star san, imagine it would taste pretty awful, so i often use Listerine as well  .

I do the same later on when racking for bulk priming. Never had an infection yet.


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## cdbrown (9/9/09)

There is a lot of break material that settles in the bottom of the cube that's for sure. Whether it's hot or cold or bit of both is hard to say.

I now try to ensure I leave the hop and any other break material in the pot when transferring to cube. Although I'm pretty sure it's just mainly hop material that's left behind. I transfer hot using an auto syphon hose tip and the silicone tubing. Then when transferring to fermenter I try to pour through a sieve to catch any thicker break material - also provides aeration.


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## braufrau (9/9/09)

I'm a scum skimmer.
And I strain all the hops and break out at the end with a sanitised strainer.
Now I need to get this fat cat off me and go and clean the brewery ready for tomorrow.


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## Thirsty Boy (10/9/09)

The thing is - any strainer thats fine enough to actually remove the majority of the break - would clog up with break almost immediately and cease to flow or at least slow to a trickle. This is different if you are using a hopback, which is a depth filtration thing. Generally, strainers will let through as much as they stop. In the instance of break separation - homebrewers can indeed learn a lesson from commercial practice. If strainers were a "good" way of separating break, thats probably what the commercials would use. Instead they use (mainly) whirlpools and hopbacks - with the odd settling tank, centrifuge and other weird stuff thrown in.

I'm not saying strainers don't work - its just that they are likely to remove a relatively low proportion of the break compared to a hop back or a carefully managed whirpool, or be very slow at removing a higher proportion.

You don't have to be terribly terribly fussy though - I think it was mentioned earlier. Leave the majority of the hot break behind ... don't worry about the cold break. You can be fussier - it might even improve your beers... but the amount of effort involved vs the rewards gained. Small. Its a thing to come back to when you have all the other stuff in your process ironed out. OR - you might find that a strainer or not even worrying about hotbreak at all works for you - plenty of people do.


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