# 100% Organic



## Mr Bond (20/10/05)

Has anybody ever made an all organic beer?

Is it possible to get hold of certified organic malts and hops in oz?
I'm just thinkin out loud and researching the possibilities @ the moment,but am very interested in making it a quest as soon as i am ready to A.G(very soon)
All input and info greatly appreciated.

P.S I'm not a full on greeny, just interested in it for the novelty/rarity factor(and the ingredient sourcing challenge)


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## MAH (20/10/05)

Powells in Victoria produce an organic malt (pilsner), so easy to get. In New Zealnd they grow organic hops, not sure which varities, but these should also be fairly easy to get hold of. 

I recently tried an organic beer from Mountain Goat. Horrible stuff. Tasted like any other Aussie pseudo lager crap. In complet contrast I tried an organic APA from Bute Creek Brewery. Lovely beer.


Cheers
MAH


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## Gough (20/10/05)

I've tried an organic Pale Ale from Redoak in Sydney which was promoted when I was there (In January) as being Australia's only certified organic beer available commercially. It was a nice beer but not one of their finest IMHO...

Shawn


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## tangent (20/10/05)

i hear about the "only" organic beer popping up now and again


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## nonicman (20/10/05)

MAH said:


> I recently tried an organic beer from Mountain Goat. Horrible stuff. Tasted like any other Aussie pseudo lager crap.
> 
> Cheers
> MAH
> [post="84232"][/post]​



MAH,
Was that their Organic IPA (it was few years ago when I tried it)?


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## Darren (20/10/05)

MAH said:


> Powells in Victoria produce an organic malt (pilsner), so easy to get.
> Cheers
> MAH
> [post="84232"][/post]​




Given Powells QC record I doubt you could guarantee that it was "organic". Actually I doubt there is ANY "organic" beer. If there is it will be made with sub-quality grain and hops.
(Flame suit on)
darren


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## nonicman (20/10/05)

Darren said:


> If there is it will be made with sub-quality grain and hops.
> (Flame suit on)
> darren
> [post="84265"][/post]​



The Duchy Ale is organic and tastes good. Had a number of bottles of this when in London, and my ale loving native host also gave it the thumbs up. Duchy also make some good organic pork sausages. 

http://www.wychwood.co.uk/wychwood_duchy.htm

no need for a flame suit :beer: just have to get out more :lol:


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## Darren (20/10/05)

nonicman said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> > If there is it will be made with sub-quality grain and hops.
> ...



Or look at some organic grain in comparison to those made by traditional farming methods. Yield is very low and is generally mouldy (aflotoxin) when organic. I know it seems like it must be better for you.


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## nonicman (20/10/05)

Alfotoxin (pdf) scary stuff, have a 25kg Powels Organic Pilsner malt bag (unopened) and will look out for any sign of mould.

Edit: clarify malt


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## Doc (20/10/05)

Founders Beers from Nelson NZ are Organic and taste fantastic.
I'm not up for it myself as the chemicals I use to clean and sterlise would nullify the organic part.

Beers,
Doc


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## Mr Bond (20/10/05)

:blink: MMMMMM.........seems that making a truly organic beer could more challenging than i imagined.
If it doesn't have certification(organic) then I'm not interested.
Is powels dubious in authenticity/quality?

Can it really be that hard to make an organic ale for novelties sake?


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## Darren (20/10/05)

Hi Doc,
Guess they don't sanitise? With what?

"We brew according to the Bavarian purity law (Reinheitsgebot)"

The original Reinheitsgebot didn't include yeast either. Wonder now they got past that?

Chemicals are an essential part of modern life. Everything you eat or drink is full of it.

Beer (organic) is a definate small-scale "blip" on the scale. Who is going to challenge the producers of such a product?
Darren after to much (probably too much inorganic bourban)


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## Doc (20/10/05)

Hey Darren,

The answer is Steam.

Beers,
Doc


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## Batz (20/10/05)

Darren said:


> Chemicals are an essential part of modern life. Everything you eat or drink is full of it.
> 
> 
> [post="84300"][/post]​




And no wonder we are all dying of cancer etc

I for one are trying in my small way to do away with as many chemicals in my diet as I can

Heading off to the brewery to mix up some Phos. acid :blink: 

Batz


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## nonicman (20/10/05)

> MMMMMM.........seems that making a truly organic beer could more challenging than i imagined.



Not really, mould has been an issue with the last batch of a number of Powells malt's and one of them included the Organic Pilsner malt. There is a thread that deals with the issue in the forum. The organic was not the only malt affected. 

All I need are the hops and I'm ready to go (the top of the bag is fine), though will have to try roasting some of the malt in the oven (as per another AHB post) as plain pilsner malt doesn't really appeal. However napisan is used in the brewery so the beer might not get a certified organic status :lol: 
I'm sure they don't use herbicides and pesticides on yeast.

Edit: An added extra is that the Powells OP malt is relatively high protein AFAIK (as are the grains used to make Pilsner Urquell :chug: ) which would interested to try brewing. 

Go for it.


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## Gerard_M (20/10/05)

The Organic Pilsner Malt from Powells is just like every other Organic Malt I have seen. Generally if there are any cracked grains in the bag they will have a greeny blue mould starting to show. I had this explained to me in very simple term by a guy that grows Tomatoes for a living. His exact words
"Organic - Looks shit, costs extra"

I liked the Powells Malt, yes they can provide paper work. It tasted fine, and I will be using it next week, with Organic NZ Hallertau, in an organic lager to christen the new garage I move into tomorrow. Can't wait. RedOak use Powells Malts in almost all of their beers. I can't say I like the prices they charge or the types of beers they brew , but they are getting impressive results.

I was asked a few times to brew an Organic beer at Paddy's but couldn't see the point. After using Caustic and Perasitic to clean everything I couldn't tell you it was a chemical free process. I bet the trendies in Balmain would pay a $ per schooner extra for the Organic tag, then 2 weeks later they would be back on the Becks.
Cheers
Gerard


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## Gough (20/10/05)

G'day Gerard,

Gotta agree with you on the prices Redoak charge, that's for sure  Must be something to do with their flash inner city digs I guess... That said it seems to me they at least deserve points for brewing a pretty wide range of different and (at least commercially) unusual styles. They aren't all great, but at least they are having a go is I guess the way I would see it  

I'd love to be able to brew a certified organic beer. My sister who is pretty up on these things brews with me from time to time and she is on a mission to produce a certified organic beer. Like everyone is pointing out though, we haven't quite gotten over the sanitising chemicals hurdle yet... Steam may be an option but what does the backyard brewer use? A kettle :lol: 

Shawn.


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## warrenlw63 (20/10/05)

Nup.

An old Holden on a hot day. Open the radiator cap and ssshhhhhtttttt. Organic sanitization via live steam.  Oh hang on !?! That would introduce some lead and a bit of glycol wouldn't it? :lol:  

If we make it ourselves it's organic enough. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## Gerard_M (20/10/05)

Gough
I plan to lock all of my brewing gear in a room with my mother-in-law for a couple of hours. Nothing will live through that!
Cheers
Anon.


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## Mr Bond (20/10/05)

Yeah I dig what everybody is saying about the chemicals etc... not making it a true organic(chemical free) beer.essentially mashing and enzyme conversion of starches/sugars is chemistry and chemical in nature.
I simply wanted to source some naturally grown malt & hops to make a so called "organic "ale for the novelty factor ,and to see what it would taste like.

I am not a greeny with an anti mainstream agenda, just a home brewer with a curiosity and an experimental nature who wanted to try some thing different. :unsure: 

Powells is obviously who i will have to source the malt from, any hints or google tips on who i should be sourcing the hops from?

Based on the limited ingredients i will be looking to brew a pale type ale with a nz hop( hallertau, p.o.r) and a neutral 1056 type yeast.

anymore tips/help appreciated :excl:


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## Gough (20/10/05)

Gerard_M said:


> Gough
> I plan to lock all of my brewing gear in a room with my mother-in-law for a couple of hours. Nothing will live through that!
> Cheers
> Anon.
> [post="84327"][/post]​



:lol: :lol: 

If I locked any gear in with mine it would need to be destroyed h34r: h34r: 

Shawn.


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## Doc (21/10/05)

Gough said:


> Gerard_M said:
> 
> 
> > Gough
> ...



hahhaha, and what exactly is the half life of Mother-in-law radiation ?? 40 years ?

Doc


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## nonicman (21/10/05)

> Q: What is the best way to sanitize my equipment and still "brew organic"?
> 
> A: The most practical way is with a mild iodine solution. Iodine is a naturally occurring mineral that is non toxic in minute quantities. The amount used to make an effective sanitizer is about .1 oz. per gallon of water, or about 13 ppm, which will not leave any trace of flavor and smell in the finished beer. Iodine is also a mineral that the human body needs in minute quantities, which is why it is often added to table salt. It is rare, but some people have to avoid ingesting iodine. To avoid this, euipment may be rinsed with sterile water after sanitizing. Other alternatives for sanitizing include heat (boiling, or using an oven or autoclave), hydrogen peroxide (oxygen based, a more costly alternative), or a mild acid sanitizer such as 5-Star's Star San Sanitizer.



Did a Google on cleaning and found this. Seven Bridges Cooperative .


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## tangent (21/10/05)

just to verify something:
Just because it's a "chemical" doesn't mean it's bad.
Burtonising your water involves using a "chemical" but it's definitely not seen as a nasty.

"essentially mashing and enzyme conversion of starches/sugars is chemistry and chemical in nature." exactly.


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## deebee (21/10/05)

Organic doesn't mean "chemical"-free. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to put sodium chloride on my organic chips.

As nonic man shows there are plenty of organic sanitisers. Alcohol is another one.


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## Gough (21/10/05)

Doc said:


> Gough said:
> 
> 
> > Gerard_M said:
> ...



Whatever it is it's too long... :lol: 

The whole 'certified organic' beer thing isn't something I'm really busting a nut to brew, just something I've been keeping my eye on and thinking about for a while. It is something I'd like to at least try at some stage. The wine I've tried from certified organic vineyards (there's one or two at Mudgee for example) has tended to be a bit iffy in quality and has certainly not lasted as well in the bottle. Can't see that being a problem for beer though  

Shawn.


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## warrenlw63 (21/10/05)

Pinkus Mller seem to make a pretty good fist of the organic front.

Bad luck it's in German

Roger Protz article at least it's in English

Warren -


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## SteveSA (21/10/05)

Doc said:


> hahhaha, and what exactly is the half life of Mother-in-law radiation ?? 40 years ?
> 
> Doc
> [post="84343"][/post]​


It depends on what you feed her


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## Mr Bond (21/10/05)

It looks like there are a few people half interested in having a go @ an "organic"(whatever that means) beer.I do plan to have go @ one soonish and will revive this thread when it happens and encourage any one else who is interested/doing one to revive and add tips/hints,recipie and experiences as well
At the very least it will be an interesting side project/experiment :beer: 

Cheers Dave


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## Malnourished (21/10/05)

Brauluver said:


> I am not a greeny with an anti mainstream agenda, just a home brewer with a curiosity and an experimental nature who wanted to try some thing different. :unsure:
> 
> Powells is obviously who i will have to source the malt from, any hints or google tips on who i should be sourcing the hops from?
> 
> ...


Well I kinda am a greenie with an anti-mainstream agenda  and I tried to brew an organic beer with pretty ordinary results. 

I used Powell's organic malt (toasted ~10% in the oven.) It gave horrible efficiency, about 50%. I usually average about 75%. As a result the beer went from a strong ale to a pale ale, and tasted quite watery. I used home-grown PoRs which don't have much flavour either, and Safale S-04 because the US-56 wasn't available at the time. I just sanitised as usual (don't tell anyone!) The beer was very much forgettable, so it's not really something I'm itching to try again.

Definitely agree about the Founders beers - they're great. As are the Emersons organic beers (the Pils especially.) The Australian organic beers I've had have been pretty ordinary.


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## mikem108 (21/10/05)

A lot of people poo-poo the organic route and the people who are into it but for some it is essential to go organic as much as possible to be able to get on with life in a normal way. My missus has chemical sensitivities and generally non organic wines and foods set her off. So if could brew an organic beer I might get her to switch drink preferences.
I would use a steam cleaner (still on the look out for a cheap one) for sanitising duties.


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## Mr Bond (23/10/05)

Just an FYI update. Been trawling around the net for most of the w/end and thought this link may be interesting to anyone with an organic bent!

http://www.breworganic.com/recipes/recipes_menu.htm

Awaiting a reply from powells on the organic malt,and going to order some organic hallertau this week ( thanks gerard m).

Looks like my first ever A.G will be an organic ale, might call it the "VIRGIN" first time and pure....LOL :lol:


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## reedspacer (26/10/05)

Just a note for those interested

Schneider Weisse Edel Weisse (6.3%) is available in Australia. Certified 100% organic by the USDA. 

Beautiful drop by the way.


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## apd (29/10/05)

Ask and ye shall receive...

For those interested in organic cleaning, I emailed Mountain Goat about how they clean/sanitise organically. The reply was that, according to Australian Certified Organics who certifies Mountain Goat, chemical cleaners are ok as long as they aren't chlorine or ammonia based. This leaves a lot of chemicals available, including sodium hydroxide (caustic soda).


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## Mr Bond (1/11/05)

Well today was the day folks!

Did my first A.G(mini) and made it an organic one to boot.

Powells organic pilsener(2.5 kg)
N.Z hallertau organic pellets(FWH & 10 min addition)
fermentis US 56.(Rehydrated)

Mashed @ 65*c for 75 min and batch sparged using a bucket in bucket.

rudimentary to say the least but any ag is better than no ag!

Strike temp was spot on (used the online calc @ grain & grape)

11.5 litres in total.

Time to plan the next one and start saving for the bits to do a 23 litre batch( gotta have a dream!)

Cheers Dave.


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## Mr Bond (18/12/05)

Well today is tasting day and I'm a happy camper!

The organic Blonde (AG) is a ripper.

Clean crisp malty profile,with a hint of ale fruitiness.
Paler than I could eva have done with extract and a mouthfeel that is what I've been hankering for since I started makin beer.

Hallertau hops give it a european feel with an aroma to die for.

Yipppeeee..................................EDIT 4 spelling .


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