# Whirlfloc Or Whole Tablet?



## Carboy (24/1/11)

Hi Gang,

Written in many places you will find some people recommending a Whirlfloc in a single batch, and others recommend a whole table.

Simple question, which is best.... or Whole in a single batch?_ (I've been using Irish Moss but thought I'd give Whirlfloc a run)

_Thank you in advance for any replies 

Cheers
Carboy :icon_cheers:


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## raven19 (24/1/11)

Dosage rate on Whirfloc I purchased from Ross a while back states 1/2 tablet per 23L batch. Any more wont hurt I don't think but would probably just be a waste.


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## schooey (24/1/11)

Thirsty Boy gave a great presentation on this at ANHC last year. Short answer is more is not better. Half a tab is oodles for a single batch, possibly even less if you want effective floccing and settlement. I hope TB chimes in with a summation of his trial; it's a very interesting and good piece of work


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## growler (24/1/11)

I initially used 1 tab per 25lt batch and found lots of "fluffy" cold break in my NC cubes. I have found 1/2 tab to give better results in NC.

YMMV.... my 2c......

growler


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## Benniee (24/1/11)

I use 1/2 a tablet in a 23L volume. I have used a whole tablet and found the break material to be much fluffier and harder to deal with.

What I'd like to know is what technique/method people use to break their tablets in half.

I use a sharp knife on a chopping board, but it sometimes gets a little messy with the tablet breaking into lots of bits.

Benniee


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## schooey (24/1/11)

When buying from the LHBS, select some whole tabs for double batches and some already broken tabs for single batches... 

The real bastard is when your bag is left with nothing but powder in it from the last 5 or so tabs that have been mistreated in the last 6 months


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## [email protected] (24/1/11)

If you have accurate enough scales you can weigh a tab, then once you know the weight it does not matter if its all in powder or bits, i do small batches so everything gets broken down and weighed.


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## warra48 (24/1/11)

Benniee said:


> I use 1/2 a tablet in a 23L volume. I have used a whole tablet and found the break material to be much fluffier and harder to deal with.
> 
> What I'd like to know is what technique/method people use to break their tablets in half.
> 
> ...



I find the best way to chop them in half is with a sharp quality chisel.
Gives me a very clean break without the crumbling you can get from trying to use a knife etc etc.


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## DU99 (24/1/11)

go to the chemist and get a tablet cutter,it has a very sharp blade and only cost a few dollars

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http://www.pharmacydirect.com.au/product_details.aspx?invpid=16658
```


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## Cocko (24/1/11)

schooey said:


> Thirsty Boy gave a great presentation on this at ANHC last year. Short answer is more is not better. Half a tab is oodles for a single batch, possibly even less if you want effective floccing and settlement. I hope TB chimes in with a summation of his trial; it's a very interesting and good piece of work



Didn't see TB's presentation but have heard over and over again the exact same opinion.

In fact, I have spoken to more than one knowledgeable brewers who have said, more is actually detrimental to the desired affects of it....

But have had mixed opinions on whether it goes in at 15 or 10... h34r: 

2c.


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## gone_fishing_ (24/1/11)

I thought it was 20min :lol: 

Schooey, I just hold mine over the side of a laminated benchtop and snap


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## amiddler (24/1/11)

Benniee said:


> I use 1/2 a tablet in a 23L volume. I have used a whole tablet and found the break material to be much fluffier and harder to deal with.
> 
> What I'd like to know is what technique/method people use to break their tablets in half.
> 
> ...



I have a pair of pincer pliers like this. 


They always give me a clean break when doing half batches.

Drew


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## Nick JD (25/1/11)

Does too much whirlfloc take out wanted proteins and affect the head retention?


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## flano (25/1/11)

I use my brute strength to snap them in half.

Dunno what they do
Dunno if I could even tell the difference without them...but I do it because I was told to.


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## smilinggilroy (25/1/11)

Hmmm,
The instructions on the packet from the HBS is quote:-
Use half a tab per 20-25 litres.
Dissolve in aprox. 250ml cold water and add 15 mins. before and of boil.

Seems to work. :mellow:


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## brettprevans (25/1/11)

Seriously u blokes need knives? Mine just break in my hands. It seems I must have a dodgy batch
I just go by the instructions. 1/2 tab per 23L @10min


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## Acasta (25/1/11)

I stare at mine and they break themselves.


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## bigfridge (25/1/11)

Carboy said:


> I spotted a packet of "Copper Tun" (Brewcraft) Whirlfloc tablets at LHBS today, and the instruction on the packet said... Use 1 tablet per 23 litres.



So much mis-information and ignorance .....

A quick search would have located this.

I use 1/3 tablet per 50 litres to give flavourfull beers of brilliant clarity


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## QldKev (25/1/11)

bigfridge said:


> So much mis-information and ignorance .....
> 
> A quick search would have located this.
> 
> I use 1/3 tablet per 50 litres to give flavourfull beers of brilliant clarity




Don't let the truth get in the way of AHB talk :beer:


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## manticle (25/1/11)

citymorgue2 said:


> Seriously u blokes need knives? Mine just break in my hands. It seems I must have a dodgy batch
> I just go by the instructions. 1/2 tab per 23L @10min



Not a dodgy batch. Every packet I've ever bought has crumbled with ease.

1/2 tab per 20-25 L


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## QldKev (25/1/11)

manticle said:


> Not a dodgy batch. Every packet I've ever bought has crumbled with ease.
> 
> 1/2 tab per 20-25 L




All batches I have ever had have all been from the same source. The first batch was hard to break, all since have been easy?

QldKev


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## leiothrix (25/1/11)

Maybe you just got stronger


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## robv (25/1/11)

Try one of these to break them
http://www.magnamail.com.au/Product_Detail...1&Prod=4748


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## Cocko (25/1/11)

If you can afford it, one of these, even 2, come in handy and work a treat:











Maybe it was my years 'clubbing' that gets me breaking them perfectly in half each time....


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## schooey (25/1/11)

bigfridge said:


> So much mis-information and ignorance .....
> 
> A quick search would have located this.
> 
> I use 1/3 tablet per 50 litres to give flavourfull beers of brilliant clarity



I'm not sure how much clearer that thread makes it, Dave.... :blink:



> WHIRLFLOC T is recommended for use at 20-60ppm.
> 
> The dose rate should be optimised to suit the individual
> 
> brewery.




At that dose rate, a 23L batch of 1.050 SG wort would need anywhere between 0.48 gr and 1.45 gr or 1/5 to 3/5 of a tablet. Pretty vast difference...

*​*​​


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## Tony (25/1/11)

i use 1 tablet in a 28 liter batch and 2 in a 54 liter batch...... works great for me.

Breaking them in half is easy...........

MHB showed me how many years ago.

place said tablet on a sharp 90 deg edge of a bench or piece of timber 

Hold it so the middle of the tablet is running half and half on the 90 deg corner and push down on both sides evently with palms of your hands. 

99% of the time it will break evenly in half. If it doesnt you did it wrong.

cheers


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## jackson (25/1/11)

I think the real answer is that we all need to do bigger batches so we can get around having to break that tablet in half.


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## brettprevans (25/1/11)

manticle said:


> Not a dodgy batch. Every packet I've ever bought has crumbled with ease.
> 
> 1/2 tab per 20-25 L


From Ross? Mine are. All the packs ive seen r crumbly. I was kind of being of being sarcastic and poking fun at the others 

Edit: Jackson, exactly right. 90% of my batches r doubles so in a whole tablet goes. No fuss


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## Tony (25/1/11)

i know i have touched on this topic years ago so i did some searching

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=117125


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## schooey (25/1/11)

I really hope Thirsty Boy drops in and shares the results from his experimentation.... Some time ago, I posted this thread and TB made this response



> Its possible (just floating ideas) - that the large volume you see in your fermenter is less from cold break, than from a bit of overuse of kettle finings. You use too much of it and the break forms big fluffy floccs that wont compact down properly. Its not that there is a heap "more" of it, its just taking up more space thats all.



Now that batch was 21 litres and I threw in a whole tablet of whirlfoc. From then until ANHC, I started using 1/2 tabs. In the two or three batches I've done since ANHC, I've only used roughly a quarter of a tab and it does take a little longer to settle, but the floccing break does compact down better and the resultant wort is clearer.


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## manticle (25/1/11)

citymorgue2 said:


> From Ross? Mine are. All the packs ive seen r crumbly. I was kind of being of being sarcastic and poking fun at the others



GG. 

The others are weak. I need a hammer and chisew to bweak my wherwfwoc. It's so wesistant to my hand stwengf

WEAK!!

(or buying the wrong tabs - seriously mine crumble with ery little effort)


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## jasonharley (25/1/11)

Gee ... i just put one W tablet into a 23L batch and I have had no problems

5 eyes


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## fcmcg (25/1/11)

Five Eyes Brewing Company said:


> Gee ... i just put one W tablet into a 23L batch and I have had no problems
> 
> 5 eyes


You wouldn't have had any problems ....
The thing is though , Thirsty Boy proved that the correct ratio works better ... From memory at ANHC... He showed that using more ( or too much ) didn't actually make the wort clearer....
It was an excellent demo...hopefully they put it on a DVD , if they put one out this year...
FWIW, I use one tablet in 40 or so liters....


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## bigfridge (25/1/11)

schooey said:


> At that dose rate, a 23L batch of 1.050 SG wort would need anywhere between 0.48 gr and 1.45 gr or 1/5 to 3/5 of a tablet. Pretty vast difference...



Yes it is a vast difference simply because there is such a vast difference in worts - means that there is no single right answer. Like many other questions asked here the the only correct answer is .... 'it depends'.

Not wanting to take anything away from TB and his experiment, but the way to approach any processing step that removes potentially beneficial components from your wort - you should use as little as possible.

Try using the minimum rate suggested and see if you like the results. If you don't then increase the amount, otherwise leave it at the minimum.

You can do this as a trial over sequential batches or divide boiled wort into a number of small samples and dose with different rates. Compare the clarity ,chill proof or whatever other property you are trying to control and pick the minimum dose that gives the desired result.

Seems that the only people that recommend excessive doses are those that sell the stuff - good way to double or tripple sales I guess.

Dave (the minimalist brewer)


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## Hatchy (26/1/11)

I've got some whirlfloc here but I've never used it because I'm pretty sure I'd be using too much or not enough as well as putting it in the kettle too early or too late.


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## Thirsty Boy (26/1/11)

bigfridge said:


> Yes it is a vast difference simply because there is such a vast difference in worts - means that there is no single right answer. Like many other questions asked here the the only correct answer is .... 'it depends'.
> 
> Not wanting to take anything away from TB and his experiment, but the way to approach any processing step that removes potentially beneficial components from your wort - you should use as little as possible.
> 
> ...



My "experiment" was a repetition of the industry standard kettle finings optimisation routine - the whole point of which is, as others have suggested, to use as little of the stuff as possible to get the best result - so even if you did want to take away from me and my experiment, you couldn't, because you agree with its conclusions  

If people really want to know whats going on, then they can invest an hour in reading this document fro the Brewers Supply Group

http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/FileCabi...nual%5B1%5D.pdf

Which is where I stole a great deal of the information I used in my presentation. The main thing you want to look at to drive home the point, is the graph on page 11. It clearly shows that there is a tipping point in kettle finings dose where it becomes effective - and after that it is basically no "more" effective at making your wort or beer more clear - and all it does is increase the volume of trub and make it more difficult for you to separate your clear beer from the muck at the bottom of the tank without losing a large percentage of it.

The point where I diverge from that document, and most of the other stuff that is written about kettle finings, is that they almost universally say that kettle finings have no influence on the behaviour of hot break at all (only affecting cold break) and therefore make no difference to your whirlpool/kettle trub separation process. I've watched dozens of these optimisation trials done at work, and did a bunch of them at home too - and the amount of kettle finings you use plainly does have an effect on the way your hot break forms and settles out and the clarity of your hot wort. So you should take into consideration how the hot wort jars look and behave if you were to do one of these tests. The difference the dose makes to your hot wort is almost nothing compared to the difference it will make to cold wort - but its enough to make a % point or 3 of difference to how much wort you can recover from your kettle.

Get your kettle finings right - and it can help your fermentation performance, your isinglass performance, your foam formation and stability and certainly your beers colloidal stability - get it too wrong and it can seriously mess with your efficiency and maybe wreak havoc on your head retention.

The thing to remember - is that if you don't use enough kettle finings - it doesn't matter. Kettle finings do virtually nothing that you cant get done anyway with patience and time for your beer to sit in the cold. Remember, not one of those crystal clear German beers has ever had carrageenan added to them. Your kettle finings dose was too low?? Lager it for 6 weeks and its problem solved. Kettle finings are there to save you time and money, and they aren't really for anything else at all.

So use a little less - if that works, use less again - repeat till it stops working then go back up to the previous dose or even one more. You might find your beers clearing out faster and better; and that you are suddenly getting a litre or so more clear beer out of your fermenter without having used any more grain to fill it. And in a 20ish litre batch - that's a big efficiency jump.

TB


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## DanRayner (26/1/11)

Cocko said:


> Maybe it was my years 'clubbing' that gets me breaking them perfectly in half each time....



"Half now and the other half in 30mins, once I see how the first half goes" is not the appropriate way to use Whirlfloc!


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## jasonharley (26/1/11)

Thanks Fergie/Thirsty .... i'll definitely try a 1/2 tab next time I do a 23 L batch ....... all this good advice is great !!!!

cheers
5 eyes


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## flano (5/11/11)

so ...I will just use this thread to ask my question.

brewing away there yesterday BIAB...you know the missus is gone away ..the kids are at the aunties for the night.

Music is pumping ..beers are going down quicker than a 17 year old school girls at schoolies week.

Wake up today and noticed I forgot to put the whirlfloc tablet in.
It is all up and running in the fermeter with yeast etc.
What happens if you don't put it in?
I did notice it was bloody muddy looking...but everything was a bit muddy looking at the time.


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## Batz (5/11/11)

Chuck them away and get some brewbrite.


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## Ross (5/11/11)

beernorks said:


> so ...I will just use this thread to ask my question.
> 
> brewing away there yesterday BIAB...you know the missus is gone away ..the kids are at the aunties for the night.
> 
> ...



Read Thirsty boy's post just a few up the page from here & all will be answered.

cheers Ross


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## beerdrinkingbob (5/11/11)

Acasta said:


> I stare at mine and they break themselves.



then it round house kicks you in the face....


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## ekul (5/11/11)

I usually use a quarter or third for a 46L batch.

Last brew i did i threw in a teaspoon of polyclar, i'd read it can be used as a kettle fining agent, i threw it in at 30mins by mistake but the wort was so clear ouit of the kettle, probably the clearest i've ever had. I still used a little whirfloc too.


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## flano (7/11/11)

Ross said:


> Read Thirsty boy's post just a few up the page from here & all will be answered.
> 
> cheers Ross




thanks ross.

Looks like I might be ok then.

I will call it prison beer...if anyone asks why its so cloudy.
Done on purpose of course..


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## flano (23/11/11)

just to throw a spanner in the works here is my un whirlfloced beer.


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## MarkBastard (23/11/11)

beernorks said:


> just to throw a spanner in the works here is my un whirlfloced beer.




Doesn't really mean much. Whirfloc isn't really used to make the final beer in the glass look a certain way.


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## flano (23/11/11)

well...I have no idea what it is used for.
It was clear like that from the first schooner, great head retention , tasted good ( my mates love it - not a good gauge though ) it definitley works. ..it is approx 5%
I used gellatine and had it in the fridge for about a week.
all up 14 days from BIAB to drinking.


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## HoppingMad (23/11/11)

I do agree with Beernorks you can get beer clear with or without it. But without a whirlfloc you'd better have a truckload of patience!
Clearing that beer will take a few weeks longer.

Thirstyboy actually did a discussion at ANHC last year on this very subject. 
He did samples with different amounts placed in each. Adding 2 whirlflocs (much too much) to a standard 19L/20L batch actually had a detrimental effect on the time it took to clear if I remember correctly. The beer took almost the same time to clear as the sample with no whirlfloc in his tests! The no-whirlfloc sample did take quite a large amount of time when compared to the whirlflocced samples using standard amounts. That's if I remember his talk correctly - it was a year ago.

I tend to use a half a tab for ales and a full tab for lagers - and use a full one when I do 40L or higher. How the hell you could cut one into a third is beyond me! :blink: Crush it and measure it out?

But as Beernorks infers you can indeed be patient and not use them, by letting the beer condition, the yeast drop out, and then cold clarify it for the results he appears to have on that youtube link. (Or just give the beer plenty of cellar time and it will clear all of its own).

Hopper.


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## flano (23/11/11)

I will keep using it..I just stuffed up and forgot to put it in ...I thought I would have muddy beer with no head..turned out ok in the end.


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## Bribie G (23/11/11)

Batz said:


> Chuck them away and get some brewbrite.



Now widely available, I've got a few Whirlfloc tablets left from the old days, probably chuck them in my next spring clean up.


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