# Apple Cider



## primusbrew (14/12/08)

Hi All,

Just got a new juicer for christmas. It has got me thinking about making a batch of apple cider from some freshly juiced apples. Back when I was brewing from kits I made an apple cider and was disappointed with the results. I have a few questions for those out there that have made there own apple ciders before

What type of apples should I use? I have heard that you should use a mixture of apples to achieve a well balanced cider.

What type of yeast is best? 

What will the alcohol content of the cider be when the yeast has eaten all of the sugar in the juice? Some people on this forum have mentioned achieving an abv of 9% I am hoping to get something lower than this around the 5% mark. Does this mean that I will need to dilute the juice with water?

Does the juice need to be sanitised? 

If anyone has tried the Little Creature apple cider, that is the type of cider that I am hoping to produce.

Thanks,

Jesse


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## drsmurto (15/12/08)

Never tasted LC cider so cant help you there.

The average OG you get form juiced apples is ~1.048.

Depending on the yeast you finish around 1.000 altho i have had one batch finish at 1.008.

I use Wyeast 4766. Clean, consistent results, allows the apple flavour and aroma to really shine.

It produces a dry cider but that suits me fine.

Last batch was 1/3 sundowner, 1/3 fuji and 1/3 granny smith.

I find it has more depth of flavour than the batches i have made using berri apple juice. 

If you are keen on taking this further have a read - Breton Cider

I lived in Rennes for 6 months and had plenty of the local cider, so much so i recently grafted my apple trees with french cider varieties!


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## Tyred (15/12/08)

I've only made cider from juice and using S04. That went from 1.042 to 1.004 so that's around 5% which was around the mark you were looking for. Have a look at http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?t=64821 in regards to yeast to use. A large number of yeasts have been tried there.

I haven't tried LC cider so I don't know what it is like.

It would probably be a good idea to sanitise your juice as there is a possibility of wild yeast or other things on the apples. I think you can use campden tablets.

You should also consider using some yeast nutrient when you do it as apple juice doesn't have all the nutrients that yeast require.


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## Bizier (15/12/08)

LC cider is crisp, very clean and pretty neutral, with a nice dry finish. I would suggest it is purely from eating apples, but that is just a guess. Better than all other ciders available here without spending 5-10 x the amount IMO.

I put down a Berri juice on Sat as per Dr S. using 4766 Cider yeast. I didn't have nutrient on hand, and wanted to just get the brew down. I have noticed that it is fermenting very slowly compared to a ordinary bitter that I put down and has gone off like a rocket. I will get nutrient with my next order and recommend using it.

It was interesting to see that CvilleKevin on Northern Brewer didn't recommend that yeast after side by sides. I might do something similar by bunging an airlock on some 3L juices and different yeasts to see. Would be much cheaper and easier to use Nottingham or SO4 if they produce good results. I might try fermenting using dry yeast in some 3L bottles to compare to 4766.


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## drsmurto (15/12/08)

Read that thread, still prefer 4766.

yes, nutrients do help, i used DAP last time

And i forgot to mention that after juicing all the apples i left the resulting cloudy juice sit in the fermenter for 24h with one crushed campden tablet to kill any wild yeast present.

Traditional cider, particularly the breton variety, relies on wild yeast present on the apples.

Still early days for me so i am relying on the consistency you get with a know yeast!


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## Pumpy (15/12/08)

The trick is to use 60% apple juice 40% apple juice aim for some residual sweetness uses some dry malt and some sultanas ,and a good quality cider yeast 

Trust Me Pumpy  







primusbrew said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just got a new juicer for christmas. It has got me thinking about making a batch of apple cider from some freshly juiced apples. Back when I was brewing from kits I made an apple cider and was disappointed with the results. I have a few questions for those out there that have made there own apple ciders before
> 
> ...


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## mickoz (15/12/08)

Pumpy said:


> The trick is to use 60% apple juice 40% apple juice aim for some residual sweetness uses some dry malt and some sultanas ,and a good quality cider yeast
> 
> Trust Me Pumpy




Don't you mean pear pumpy?

Mick


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## reviled (15/12/08)

Pumpy said:


> The trick is to use 60% apple juice 40% apple juice aim for some residual sweetness uses some dry malt and some sultanas ,and a good quality cider yeast
> 
> Trust Me Pumpy



So... Uh, was that 60/40 ratio supposed to be two different types of apple juice? :huh:


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## Fents (15/12/08)

apple/pear im pretty sure he meant.


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## primusbrew (15/12/08)

Had a read of those threads some good info there. In the Northern Brewer forum the guy mentions that he would not recommend the Wyeast 4766. Has anyone else had any negative experiences with this yeast? There seems to be a lot of variables to play around with so it might be worth doing a number of smaller batches using different yeasts and apples etc.




DrSmurto said:


> Last batch was 1/3 sundowner, 1/3 fuji and 1/3 granny smith.



DrSmurto, how many kilograms of apples do you think that I would need to produce 23 litres of juice?




> The trick is to use 60% apple juice 40% apple juice aim for some residual sweetness uses some dry malt and some sultanas ,and a good quality cider yeast
> 
> Trust Me Pumpy



Pumpy, was that 60% apple and 40% pear? How much malt would you suggest?


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## newguy (15/12/08)

primusbrew said:


> DrSmurto, how many kilograms of apples do you think that I would need to produce 23 litres of juice?



To get 23l of juice, I find I need about 12 gallons of raw apples. This is based on my observation that I needed 2.5 full 5 gallon pails of fruit in order to produce enough juice to fill a carboy. Sorry I can't tell you the weight of the apples as I didn't weigh them, but I'd hazard a guess that you'd need about 30-35 kg total.

I get my apples from my mother in law's apple tree - that's why I don't weigh them.


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## muckanic (15/12/08)

Generally, a spontaneous ferment will result in a more complex product. However, to keep airborne stuff at bay, it can still be a good idea to use a spontaneous starter so that the ferment hits the ground running and some of the more aerobic bugs are overwhelmed.

Cider apples have a lot of tannin in their juice. When using table apples, it can be an idea to ferment on the pulp as compensation. The sweetest juice will result in about 8% ABV, ie, a total gravity drop of 60.

Completely dry cider is a bit of an acquired taste. Raisins can help take the edge off a bit.


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## drsmurto (15/12/08)

I used 1.5kg of each of the 3 varieties to get ~4.5L. 

After that i lost interest as i had covered myself and the kitchen in juice. 

If i was doing a 20L batch or bigger i would hire a press for the day and invite mates around to help.

Not sure why 4766 got such a bad rep on that forum. I have tried S-04 and champers yeast and didnt like the results. 4766 gives me clean and tasty results every time. 

Just my 2 c (AUD indexed to inflation) :lol:


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## muckanic (16/12/08)

I'd say a crusher is even more essential than a press. These are not much more than a spiked roller mill, so it's too bad most brewing kit could not be adapted.


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## tyoung (19/12/08)

+ 1 on the Wyeast 4766

I put a brew down last weekend using 12L Berri juice (on special for $1 a litre) and then dumped the yeast on it. It was done in about 5 days, so I went and got more juice to top it up to 22L. From what I've read the 4766 smackers don't need added nutrient because it's already there in the pouch. I'll have to add some next time if I reuse the yeast.

It tastes bloody nice straight out of the fermenter.

I'll be careful to save the yeast cake for next time.

Cheers,

Tim


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## Swinging Beef (19/12/08)

apple cider is nice, but a bad beer wins over a good cider any day.

Oztops will continue to suit me fine for any strange cider fetishes I might have from time to time.


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## drsmurto (20/12/08)

Swinging Beef said:


> apple cider is nice, but a bad beer wins over a good cider any day.
> 
> Oztops will continue to suit me fine for any strange cider fetishes I might have from time to time.



You have to love a blanket statement. :huh: 

Never tasted a decent cider then SB. 

Your loss.


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## Kenny the plumber (20/12/08)

I used to be a big drinker of Magners, but now I can get Bulmers I'm converted I know its the same and its his brother but I can taste a difference


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## randyrob (31/12/08)

Hey Guys,

just trying to kill some time before i get my drinking hat on this arvo and went to the markets and picked up a couple of kilo's of each variety of apple
available then juiced them separately so i could evaluate the different flavours each apple will attribute, here is the blend i've decided to go with:





crushed a camden tablet and added it last night and have just added some pectinol (this helps break down the cell walls and helps the cider to clear)

so in about 12 hours i'll have to pitch some yeast, just checking the fridge and i have us-05, nottingham and some lavlin ec-1118 (champagne) 

still not sure which way to go, i know a champagne yeast will dry the bejesus out of it and have used nottingham before and it didnt come out too bad

also what are your guys thoughts on adding a pinch of grape tannin to the mix considering i'm not using cider or and crab apples?

Rob.


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## Mercs Own (1/1/09)

Some great ciders coming out of Tassie including some Perry Cider. Pipsqueak is good (LC cider) and I also think 3 Oaks makes a good cider. Mercury Artisan is crap. Thorogoods is a very good cider also, their site is interesting. http://www.thorogoods.com.au/welcome


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## Ducatiboy stu (1/1/09)

I am still wanting to know the general consensus on yeast

Can a yeast like w1318 ( brit ale ) be OK...its fruity, or would a dedicated cider yeast be much better in a brew that constisted of straight apple juice...?


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## Franko (1/1/09)

Only way to go is Wyeast 4766 cider yeast have used it now 12-15 times and the results speak for themselves

Franko


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## drsmurto (1/1/09)

Franko said:


> Only way to go is Wyeast 4766 cider yeast have used it now 12-15 times and the results speak for themselves
> 
> Franko



+1

I wont use any other yeast for cider!


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## Ducatiboy stu (1/1/09)

Good.

Now I am Happier...


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## Schooie (16/3/09)

The best cider I ever made was with just the wild yeast on the apples. Doesn't always work (feeling lucky?  ) but when it does its the best you'll taste.
In the interests of not making vinegar though I wouldn't mind trying the Wyeast version...


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## willowmere (13/6/09)

Franko said:


> Only way to go is Wyeast 4766 cider yeast have used it now 12-15 times and the results speak for themselves
> 
> Franko



Hi Franko,

I will be using your tried and true cider recipe with the Wyeast 4766 cider yeast next week (hopefully) but do I have to use the bought juice you recommend in your recipe? I have lots of granny smith and pink lady apples that I thought I could juice and use instead (luckily have an orchard). What would be the best process - juice and strain? I have read some comments about pressing but as a complete novice have no idea what this means! I am going to purchase whatever 'hardware' I need from a local shop called butts and brews (I think they have everything for home brewing so they may be able to advise?).

Also thinking about making alcoholic ginger beer. Any recipe suggestions out there?


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## egolds77 (13/6/09)

I really enjoy the taste champagne yeast gives cider. The cider has a champagne nose and slight taste. 
I use a Berri Apple and Pear mix juice from the supermarket, 1 kg brew booster with some Lactose to sweeten. 

AnEnglish and Canadian couple commented how good it was and began making cider themselves, not having home brewed at all before.

It's all relative to personal taste, isn't it, just experiement until you find what you personally like.

You could primary ferment with one yeast then secondary with another.

:icon_chickcheers:


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## manticle (13/6/09)

willowmere said:


> Hi Franko,
> 
> I will be using your tried and true cider recipe with the Wyeast 4766 cider yeast next week (hopefully) but do I have to use the bought juice you recommend in your recipe? I have lots of granny smith and pink lady apples that I thought I could juice and use instead (luckily have an orchard). What would be the best process - juice and strain? I have read some comments about pressing but as a complete novice have no idea what this means! I am going to purchase whatever 'hardware' I need from a local shop called butts and brews (I think they have everything for home brewing so they may be able to advise?).



Fresh apples in a cider are great - particularly if you use a blend of sweet, bitter and acidic. You're well on the way with a blend of grannies and ladies.

An apple press will just make life a lot easier as you need a lot of apples to make the required amount of juice but they are very pricey. I use a small domestic juicer for mine - it's a lot of work but so is mashing and both are fun and rewarding.

You have a number of options depending on your palate and your willingness to take a punt.

Juice the apples. No real need to strain depending on whether your juicer will let through bits (seeds, skin etc).
There are wild yeasts and microbes in apples so you can sterilise the juice in a number of ways:

1. Pasteurise - heat briefly to 70 deg celsius (I think that's how it's done). Don't overheat or you will cook the apples

OR

2. use sodium or potassium metabisulphite (sometimes available as Campden tablets)

OR

3. leave it

I haven't tried pasteurisation - apparently it can effect shelf life. Brewer Pete posted a link to some experiments on various yeasts and pateurised vs unpasteurised somewhere on the forum.

I have tried potassium met and found it made the resulting brew give off an unsettling sulphur odour. This will dissipate with ageing but I'm not a fan.
Personally I just take the punt - once a yeast is pitched the alcohol formation should provide a sterile environment (so making a starter is advisable).

Allow the juice to clarify for about 24-48 hours in the fermenter. This means that a crust will form on top and impurities will be trapped therein.
Rack the liquid underneath the crust to a different vessel (second fermenter). This aids a nice clear cider later down the track.

Add the yeast and some yeast nutrient.

Ferment slowly somewhere between 12 and 14 degrees over 2 -4 weeks. Rack to secondary if that's something you normally do. Arguments are for and against.
Cold condition/lager at 2 degrees for a further week or two. This gives a nice clean, crisp, refreshing cider which is drinkable within a short while. Ageing cider beyond a month (and up to a year) gives the flavours a chance to develop supposedly although I've never been patient enough to go beyond a month. Next time perhaps.

You can use sugars to up the alc content but be aware that this may result in a drier cider. If you have access to loads of apples, I wouldn't bother.

You can also use lactose to sweeten or if you keg you can stop fermentation early depending on how sweet or dry you like it. I've used lactose with success.

NB: I've only used white wine yeast which will ferment at the above temps. I've not used the cider wyeast so check with the manufacturer that it will work at those temps. Breton ciders (wild fermentation relying on natural yeast in the apples) ferment slow in cool conditions and it's worked when I've tried it.

There are other, better cider makers on here than me that may offer different advice but that's how I've done it. Next I may try a lager yeast then give the wyeast a go. Following that I aim to take a punt with wild/apple yeasts.

Last but not least - cider can sometimes give off weird smells during ferment so don't be put off if you get apple farts during primary. Don't throw it out by any means (do keep it away from the house though).

PS: here's a step by step pdf I found: http://www.fcs.uga.edu/pubs/PDF/FDNS-E-91.pdf


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## egolds77 (13/6/09)

One thing to note with cider making is that tradional cider contains upto 25% pear juice, which give a rounder, more mellow profile.

:icon_chickcheers:


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