# My Thinking



## jagerbrau (2/3/06)

Cams
Champaign against Mega Swill

I grew up at about 16 believing the media about beer, west end export if you were south Australian you wouldnt drink anything else. Today and for the last week I have sat and watched a mate basically die of marketing, a fool to the media guru. To drink a slab a night youre a legion.

I have know many mates of varies ages die of liver failure, the one now I see and understand is only in his mid fifties, the type of bloke you and I all ways liked at work. The one that understood a drink with mates and the value of good mates. Over 15 years I have watched this bloke age 40 years not 15. Now I argue with him about living his life out in care, making the little life he has left comfortable. Under 10% of your liver left you have very little hope of making a year.

You may say that he drank 4 liters of scotch a day, well to tell the truth I would have drunk him under the table at the age of 14.

My point is media and alcohol, I sit at my gym listening to the executives from west end talk marketing, believe me it is about hyping up this type of bloke, that with out this he is lost.

I sat at the local tonight, the lad next to me ordered CUB product and snob idly ordered a Stella artois, I said to the lad same old same old. His answer I know nothing of beer.

Mindless suits that know nothing of brewing, control the masses, these are the people that are behind products that are as close to Stella artois as coppers stout kit can and a kilo is as close to trummer pils. They prey on mates of you and I, with there mega swill.

It is up to us as brewers up holders of a tradition that has little to do with the current range of up holders of the tradition. We should educate those we know, tease them in to enjoyment of the nectar of life beer not the mega consumption of the mega swill. I would rather one good beer than a pallet of the mega swill.

Go into a bottlo and try and by an imported Stella, becks, hienie good luck I cant. The mega swill is meant for the masses to be consumed in masses. I have lost too many mates to this and hope that you never have to.

Just a point to think on as consumers control the end product by demanding more. A friend last Easter lost her 20 year old son, believer of the advertising he crashed his car, killing him self an 18 yr old girl and seriously injuring 3 others. Are the makers of the swill at fault, only as much as the the marketers of smokes are.

Far far to many loose. And it goes unnoticed. As those that suffer from this, suffer alone.

A dedicated brewer, and consumer of fine ales and lagers

David Hunt


----------



## pint of lager (3/3/06)

Am really sorry to read about your mate and his illness. He is lucky to have your support.

There are many facets of advertising that are totally misleading, and at times, it is far easier to be mislead, rather than thinking for oneself. Advertising is big money, for the extra sales produced, for the broadcast and media companies, the advertising companies and eventually the shareholders. A huge industry. And the cost of the mislead and uninformed is born by society.

Education is an effective tool, so we understand how the advertising companies lead us around by our wants and desires.

Moderation and the consumption of better quality rather than quantity. Brew the best beer you can and enjoy it with friends.

There are a couple of sobering topics on AHB. The five star hangover topic and the recent liver problem topic are well worthwhile reading.


----------



## Mercs Own (3/3/06)

David my thoughts go to your friend and his family and friends.

I have lost friends to drink, to drugs, to aids, to motorcycle accidents and to suicide. None of it is easy, none of it is pleasant and none of it is what we want for ourselves nor our friends.

BUT and it is a big but - it is us, own self who holds the power of choice. We choose how we live and in doing so also choose how we might die. I dont believe you can blame the marketers of mega swill. The tobacco industry has been shown to and proven that they have lied over the years about their product they are liable in that case for misleading the public but mega swill producers try to offer a distorted realty and lets face it once you are pissed reality is distorted.

I think it is important that people understand they have a choice in life about how they wish to live their life - sadly many people dont wish to be responsible for that choice and the consquences can often be devastating. Some times people think the only choice they have is to get out of the whole ball game and they do it through drink and drugs and food and other things.... My brother took his life a few years ago and a friend of mine took his also about a year later - wether you do it by gassing yourself in your car, hanging from a tree or through the demon drink the truth is it is a choice that is made by the individual - not by marketing - a choice that we must stand up and be accountable for.

How we live our lives is our own individual and initimate choice.

In the face of my brothers suicide I choose happiness - to live my life with my family and friends and a few (often too many) beers, good food etc I choose to live on my own terms - sadly others dont.


----------



## wessmith (3/3/06)

Beautifully and thoughtfully said Paul.

Cheers, Wes


----------



## Screwtop (3/3/06)

Mercs Own said:


> I choose happiness [post="112361"][/post]​




Heard you mention this a while back. This is the same decision I made after 10 quite stressfull years in business. Before deciding on any option business or personal these days I ask Will I Be Happy in this decision. I choose Happiness now in everything I do. Some poor souls believe they make the same choice and choose the way out as a means to finding happiness. I too have lost friends, and wish it had been different for them. In the depths of depression and dispair the options are not always clear, simply living can be seen as the cause of unhappiness. We are responsible for all of the decisions we make in life good and bad, most days a good decision average of 50% is good. However if you only perceive a choice of two options 50% can be a pretty bad average. Marketing does tend to push perceived happiness buttons, but in the long run we need more knowledge of early indicators of depression and dependancy.


----------



## PistolPatch (4/3/06)

There's a lot of interesting thoughts above and my best wishes go to those of you who have or are experiencing a loss of someone close to you. I think most of us can relate to the above and would have experienced some of it.

I also think some interesting observations have been made above on choice and happiness. Like the beer advertising, I believe that the New Age has lead to some false perceptions of choice and happiness.

For 14 years I taught seminars on advanced thinking. One of the major areas I addressed was the concept of free will. The New Age movement actively promotes the fallacy that people have total choice or free will.

As Screwtop mentioned above, people experiencing depression etc., have far lower levels of healthy choice than the next person. I have taught people who have had a sibling killed by serial killers (the Perth people will remember the Birnies), a young woman who had her children shot and her leg shot off by her husband, right through to an extraordinary case where one bloke had had 1 father and 5 stepfathers! Interestingly enough, the above cases now have a lot greater abilities in making choices for happiness than they did previously. Whilst they have higher levels of free will than most, they still don't have total free will.

I believe that some of us have, through luck or whatever, been given a little more choice than others. A retarded person will generally have lesser choices than a person with an average IQ and if you've just broken up with your partner, you're generally not able to choose as wisely as at other times especially if you're like me!

I used to ask participants in my seminar why they were so lucky to be sitting there instead of living on the streets. Most people would say they made the right choices which to me is totally irrelevant and I believe incorrect. Who knows why some have more choice than others? Did retarded people choose the wrong parents? Did the person with cancer choose to have that disease? Some New Agers will say, 'Yes.' A shallow and unproductive way of thought when applied in this manner.

As I just said, finding a reason as to why you may have a higher ability to choose than others is irrelevant. If you do have average or above average levels of being able to consciously make beneficial choices I think it is far better off asking the questions, 'What am I doing with my level of choice?' and 'What can I do to be of service to those experiencing lower levels of choice?' These to me are the only relevant questions.

Asking these two questions leads to productive outcomes such as better education as mentioned above which in turn leads to a general rise in happiness.

Some people will always be ahead of us in certain areas and maybe a little behind us in some areas. I have some very advanced skills in certain areas and am child-like in others. Often I am able to use my more advanced skills to shine a little joy in some dark places of an individual or simply lift the general level of happiness in a group. THis in turn increases my level of happiness.

Knowing also that I am only a child in many areas helps me minimise, to some extent, some of my stupidity and when I do actually exhibit stupidity I can groan at myself, then have a laugh and hopefully learn a little. This results in a slighlty quicker return to productivity and happiness.

When I see others battling with a difficulty, I see them as a child in that area. Helping a child who is struggling to grow is fun and rewarding. Expecting everyone to always act like adults and make correct choices constantly is unrealistic and personally unsatisfying.

Compassion is a very enabling thinking skill which leads to very valuable thinking tools. Education in the areas Screwtop mentioned above is a great example of the tool. Screwtop mentioning this reveals compassion which I believe we can all never have enough of. When used correctly it lightens us instead of weighing us down. It can even actually bring us joy when faced with some of the terrible things mentioned above or in the situations where we are unfortunatley unable to teach or help an adult 'child'.

I think that whilst there are many things we will never understand there are still many more things we can actually do.

Best wishes all.


----------



## jagerbrau (4/3/06)

i agree with you all,some beautifully written words. i also belive it is the choice of the individual, some people do have a gentic problem that leads to compulsive adictive behaviours, why else are some people that i have drank with alcoholics and i am not, i probebly could have and whould have drunk them under the table.

thinking through most of the people i know with problems, it seems to be genetic, fathers brothers and rest effected. 

i used to be a mega swill drinker. 

enjoy


----------



## Mr Bond (4/3/06)

I empathise,but where does it end,can every fat/obese person blame Maccas, and pizza haven or whoever advertises the food equivilant of mega swill.
cigarette advertising was banned years ago ,but kids continue to take up smoking at an alarming rate.
I've met a couple of alcoholic types over the years who brew at home("cos its cheap and i can add sugar to get more alcohol").Needless to say they wer'nt overly concerned with quality and bought it all at the supermarket(evil empirical establishment).

Personal choice is where its at.I don't believe advertising,and that makes it impotent and irrelevant.
I could however keep on craft brewing with fine ingredients and high ideals ,but still end up an alchoholic :excl:


----------



## PistolPatch (4/3/06)

(I hope I didnt write too much above but such a topic has always been of high interest to me. Also a little note regarding that post towards the end here.)

When you say, personal choice is where its at, Brauluver, (Brau is going to help me with partials!), Id like to add a couple of things.

Our society is very much conditioned into black and white thinking. Everything is either/or, 100%/0%, black/white. This is a real disease in our thinking. Couple this with our brains desperate need to find reason for things and we have an unproductive combination. Lets have a look at the smoking.

Many people who dont smoke or who have given up, will say things such as, I know a friend who smoked for 40 years and gave up in 1 day. Everyone can give up if they really want to. or, I simply *chose* to stop smoking.

The above statements put our brain to rest but do not really offer an accurate or productive view. A more accurate and productive view would be as follows.

A lot of people start smoking for various reasons and once they start, the vast majority do not have the ability to stop. Those that do stop often find it very difficult and often return to the habit sometimes years later.

Now we have a far more accurate description of what is really going on and we can see that it is not black and white but quite grey. The above leads though to some deeper thought which in turn enables us to develop some productive solutions. Many of these solutions will not work instantly which is another thing our western minds do not likewe want instant answers and results. 

The first form of thinking saying that, everyone has personal choice, (which really internally translated says, everyone has absolute choice) leads to no solution apart from placating the individuals brain that uses that thinking strategy. It relieves that individual of personal responsibility which is another one of our Western minds favourite pastimes. (When our footy team wins we say, We won! When they lose we say, They lost!)

The second form of thinking leads to things that will reduce the number of people starting smoking and come up with ways of helping people to stop smoking. Some of these ways include less cigarette advertising, more education and plans/chemical that will assist people to give up. 

At the moment, I am actually looking for someone to assist me in the building of a prototype of a device that will slowly re-educate a persons thinking over a period of several months so as they stop smoking with zero will-power which is really what is required for the majority of existing smokers. If I adopted the belief that all smokers can give up if they want to, I would have never been able to think of such a device. (By the way, any engineers or metal fabricators interested, PM mewe need the prototype!)

So once again, I think the only relevant question one can ask oneself re personal choice is, In what areas of life do I seem to have a high area of personal choice and am I using this in a productive manner? The only productive reason to question anothers level of choice is if you do so with the intention of helping them to a higher level.

This thread was started with compassion by Jagerbrau (thats two braus in this thread!) David's compassion didnt lead him to say, My mate has drunk himself to death and its his fault! Instead he has tried to find a more productive way of explaining his mates inability to choose in this area of drinking which hopefully helps some others avoid the same pitfall. He is right about the advertising but of course advertising will not explain all cases. It is not an absolute answer. But it _is_ part of the answer. Finding and dealing with parts of answers is where most of lifes move forward comes from.

David's compassion has also lead him to try and make his mates last days more comfortable rather than shunning him. Jagerbrau could be my brau any day.

There is one other thing that has been bugging me since writing the post last night. It doesnt really offer a lot of joy for those who have lost their siblings or others through tragedy. It annoys me that I cant really do much here. All I really can do is offer to have a chat on the phone which I am happy to do. So, if you do want a chat, send me a PM and I can at least tell you how some of the people I mentioned in last nights posts were able to find some higher ground.

Well I often write my longest posts whilst, forumming under the influence, but am proud to say that this post and last nights have been written at 0.0 B.A.V. Hence, my offer on the last paragraph is totally sincere and if taken up will actually make me feel a little useful which is always s good!

And, Brauluver, Id be proud to have you as a brau as well cos you are going to teach me all about partials!

Finally, now I am going to go and taste my latest brewing attempt and I emphasise the word, attempt!


----------



## Mercs Own (4/3/06)

PistolPatch, I respect your opinion but it doesnt wash with me. Mate there is no placating or interpreting what people really mean when they say in plain english what they think they mean - the fact is people love to blame any one else and everything else for their own failings. It is bloody hard to own up when you have let yourself down or when you have not stepped up to the goal you have set. You seem to make excuses for those who fail. The simple fact is we are responsible for our own reality - no one else. Some people can handle that and some cant. There is no room on the fence when talking about this - you make your choice and you live with it. If someone cant understand this then that is the problem not that there is some confusion regarding advertising or upbringing etc I think if more people understood that they were 100% accountable for their thoughts and their actions then the world would be a better place.

I dont get the idea that someone can give up a habit with zero will power??? That in itself seems to abdicate responsibility. I have never given up something with out will power, I also have never achieved anything with out the use of will power. Will power/ the power of positive thinking/dreams and the hard work that makes those dreams reality is what makes us what we are and fullifills our dreams and goals. I make beer because I have the will to do so not becasue I dont.

edit: spelling
Choose to make the life you want and then go for it!


----------



## Kai (4/3/06)

Sad to hear about your mate, jager. I'm lucky enough to have not lost any friends yet.


----------



## peas_and_corn (4/3/06)

I'm in the same boat as kai, I haven't lost anybody close to me to alcoholism, however I know its impact on people's lives. My ex (whom I dated for 3.5 years) has an alcoholic father (divorced parents), and it tears her up inside because she loves him and at the same time hates the way the alcohol is destroying him. In turn, my love for her led me to see through her eyes how this situation is, and how terribly tragic it all really is. Her father is an intelligent person who chose the wrong path and is trying to make it all better through drink- which is the completely wrong way to do it. Alcohol doesn't fix problems. It is evident he will die of it eventually, and this thread so far has helped me in regards to differing viewpoints that can be taken in times such as this- and hopefully I can help her in the same way that the other posters in this thread have given.

Sad to hear about your friend, jager, and it's good to see that you are by his side. 'A friend in need is a friend indeed', you have proven yourself to be a true friend, holding true compassion towards his suffering when it is truly needed.

Dave


----------



## PistolPatch (5/3/06)

OK! Now I am forumming under the influence! But let's see if I can make a contribution.

I think it is brilliant that people are contributing to this thread. I am very impressed with the frankness and honesty that has been expressed.

Merc! You and I could have a great chat on the phone. We have a lot more in common than you may imagine. I come from a very big family and I have lost a few relations (I won't say here how close) and there is one more that I think I will probably lose within the next year through suicide though I think some recognition of her will hopefully avoid this. Who knows?

As you know Merc, this is not funny stuff. However, I have the greatest compassion for those who do suicide. Many say, once again as a generalisation, that it is the most selfish act one can committ. This satisfies _their_ minds. I would say that suicide has nothing to do with selfishness and everything to do with desperation. I think our job is to help where we can and unfortunatley, sometimes, especially with those closest to us, we can't do anything or we simply realise too late that we could have done something. Dwelling on this is non-productive.

While many tragedies will not be prevented by us, many can be. But who will stand up and make a difference? Usually it is people who have had to deal with such tragedies. From what I have seen, often, but not always, when a person is dealt a tragedy they become more aware and more productive in society. Please excuse the word productive but I found the word necessary whilst teaching. A simple translation would be, 'love'.

You lost your brother Merc. I have lost several family members and I will, without doubt, lose a few more through suicide. While this may sound harsh, I would say honour these people. It is these people that create threads like this and discomfort like this that force us to think and create a better world.

As you have admitted above, you have chosen happiness. From what I have read, this was probably provoked somewhat by your brother's death. For those relations of mine that committed suicide, I thank them for giving me a little more respect for my own life. I wish I were a little better than I am but at least _these guys_ more than anyone else, would know that I try my hardest to make a difference to prevent others suffering like they did.

Finally, f$u$ck explaining why people do what they do. Let's do the best we can to prevent others following in their footsteps. Whoops! Defintley forumming under the influence now!


----------



## PistolPatch (5/3/06)

Merc! Just re-reading your post and saw the zero wil-power bit. I think I better deal with that one tomorrow! Hopefully though, whilst forumming under the influence above, I still made at least some sense. Cheers Merc!


----------



## PistolPatch (5/3/06)

My posts here have been excessively long and possibly quite arrogant! I hope not too much so. I'm going to use all my willpower now to answer Merc on the zero willpower bit!

What I'm thinking Merc is that this thread is about helping those with little or no willpower in an area to reach greater heights or avoid an inevitable disaster. I agree with your comments on willpower and methods in the personal areas you have mentioned though. e.g. thinking consciously about your goals etc.

We do grow a lot though without any conscious application of willpower. We learn our timestables through repetition. We learned to turn off light switches by constant nagging! Some things we learned because we drew pleasure from it. Other things, like losing weight, we may have used willpower although at a deeper level, the willpower in all these situations is motivated by fear and/or reward. You brew beer because you find it rewarding. In my case, I currently brew beer because I am excited about one day brewing one that is actually drinkable!

One method of helping others out of a bad situation is to reduce the level of conscious willpower required by them personally. I'll deal with smoking in detail but also mention alcohol and exercise at the end.

I smoke and have attempted to give up many times but I lack the willpower to do this successfully. In my brain, the craving for the cigarette over-rides the logical part of my thinking that knows it is wrong to smoke. I am an absolute child in this area of my thinking.

Most smokers, including me, actually don't want to smoke but the above defeats the majority of smoker's attempts to give up. It is of no use telling us to use willpower. We simply don't have enough, if any, of it in this area!

We usually learn to smoke through repetition. I started when I was 12 to be with the in-crowd at school. The smokes tasted bloody awful at first though! And here I am 30 yrs later still doing it knowing full well all of the dangers.

So what do I do? My thinking and willpower is fine in many othere areas but here I'm stuffed.

Most learning is acheived through repetition or shock. Current giving up methods underutilise the power of repetition. As smoking is usually learned through repetition, I thought that a way of giving up successfully would be to use the same method.

I, when I work, probably smoke every 45minutes and this is done through habit. I unconsciously reach for the cigarette. What I have noticed however was that if I drop my pack from the scaffold, every time I reach for a smoke I think, 'I'll just finish this section and then climb down and get them.' I go back to my work and funnily enough the same thing occurs again. I go without a smoke for 2 hours and this has required little, probably no will-power.

What I would like to see and maybe me writing the idea here will bring about the actuality of a machine being made that holds 20 or so cigarettes but prevents the release of the cigarette immediately. Without going into any specifics, this means the smoker has to wait 2 or 3 minutes until they can access the cigarette and then access is only available for a minute or so. Like me on the scaffold, there is no immediate panic created in the mind so we can go about our business being instantly distracted away from the brief urge we have experienced.

The end result, is that after several months, we have re-educated the brain into not acting automatically in this area.

Now, if I had any willpower at all in this area, I would leave my cigarettes on the ground. But do I? No! How ridiculous is that? But as most smokers will know, most of us are that ridiculous.

With Jag's friend and others who have friends battling with alcoholism, maybe some of the same principles apply. I am not really sure about this. Perhaps someone could build a case that will not automatically release a beer can? The alcoholic is forced to wait 5 or 10 minutes without a drink therefore slowly re-educating their brain to getting used to being without a beer in their hand. I have not really ever put any detailed thought into this side. But maybe there is something in this idea that could help people like Peas's ex-father-in-law not going down the same route as Jag's friend.

One final example of reducing the willpower required to acheive a result is with exercise machines. Some are now being developed where people can play computer style games whilst exercising. Plenty more people are likely to do this than go for a run around the block.

I hope that the above explains what I meant by the zero willpower bit, Merc. Once again, I have not been brief! I really hope I haven't been boring everone to tears.

I also hope I have not been too arrogant or insensitive in my posts. Please feel absolutely free to let me know if I have been.

All the best and cheers!
PP


----------



## Boozy the clown (5/3/06)

Ahh, PP, could you also summarise your thoughts in a 'readers digest' version?

Not that I dont appreciate your enthusiasm, but so much text, my eysa stinga me!


----------



## PistolPatch (5/3/06)

LOL! Sorry Boozy! Don't worry mate I'm off to bed now and don't think I could possibly add too much more to this thread. Is that a collective sigh of relief I just heard?!!! :huh:


----------



## poppa joe (5/3/06)

I was gunna say something here...But i left my smokes in the car,,
Gotta go get them....
Pj


----------



## Beerpig (6/3/06)

PP

Try reading Allen Carr's - "Easy Way to Stop Smoking"

Debunks some of the myth about "Willpower" and others you raise

This book is in it's fourth edition and is a best seller for over 20 years

Sometimes it is all in how you look at things

Cheers


----------



## Boozy the clown (6/3/06)

PP, I smoked a pack od Stuyvo's a day, two if I was out on the grog. I really thought i'd never be able to give up smoking, I liked it too.

Got onto those Nicabate lozenges, they work really well. I can be in a smoky pub blind drunk and still dont feel like a smoke, as long as a have a lozenge in my gob.

Just got to get off them now, its been two years...


----------



## Mercs Own (6/3/06)

PP, thanks for your thoughts. I dont wish to sound insensitive or uncompassionate towards peoples dilemmas and situations etc But reading your post I cant help but feel you have missed the point of what I was talking about or infact a better way around it for me is that you are explaining away the lack of responsability for peoples actions.

To suggest that someone invent a machine to not allow you to get a cigerette out of the packet or make you wait for a can of beer for a certain amount of time may be a valid concept (no one is going to make it!)- but it is negating the responsibilty of the person and teaching them to turn their back on their own will power. 

Our society is becoming increasingly about blame - who can I blame for my accident, my failings etc Before you know it the cigerette machine limiting the time frame of getting a cigerette will be blamed for a mass murder because it malfunctioned and the poor old smoker didnt get their fix in the alotted 7 mins and took it out on the other post office workers lingering outside waiting for the ciggy packet to cough up a cancer stick. See what I mean? Far easier to blame someone/something else than to actually take responsibility. 

Personal responsibility is being eroded away by marketing, by the government, by politics and by social peer group pressure. I am teaching my kids to be responsible for their actions as well as their thoughts. (thankfully I am not teaching them to spell)

The fact is if you truely wanted to stop smoking - truely wanted to I believe you would. I believe you do have the will power to stop smoking you acutally dont want to. And that is fine. Acknowledging you actually dont want to stop means your taking responsibilty for your actions and I hope gives you back your sense of will power which you believe you dont have.

Sorry about the lecture - nothing personal - I use all this as an example of how we either empower ourselves or disempower ourselves. When we disempower our selves we become victums always looking for someone to blame for the way we have turned out and the way our lives have turned out. Empowered - we take responsibilty, we learn from our mistakes, we accept our weaknesses along with our strengths - we lead by example and we make the choice on how we want to live our lives. Infact when we truely know no one else is to blame for our lives but our self we tend to start making pretty good choices for ourselves. 

Lastly I may add that suicide and mental Dis-ease is a different thing to what I am talking about. Depression etc is a disease that we dont know how to accurately treat nor really understand- as a friend once said to another friend who suffered chronic depression - your a bit down well get over it!! - Empathy and compassion are good qualities to aspire to. I am talking in regard to people who do not suffer from mental health issues.


----------



## PistolPatch (6/3/06)

For everyone's sake Merc, this time I really am going to be brief!!!

I totally agree with you Merc and I think we probably mean the same thing. In fact, in my seminar, the major issue was, "Individual Responsibility." In other words, be as responsible as you possibly can.

Also, as you say, this advice cannot be applied to those lacking mental capacity and it is in these areas we need to find enabling techniques of assistance.

I think the only area where we may disagree is that I beleive all of us have little areas where we also are mentally or physically incapacitated such as myself mentally with smoking and let's say, the Dallai Llama physically being unable to give up meat. Hence we need to find alternative ways to deal with these inadequacies. Telling a smoker like me that I could give up if I really wanted to is like telling the depressed person to snap out of it. Neither works!

So I think we're probably pretty close to being on the same track and thanks for taking the time to write the above. It is so true that what you say about people avoiding responsibility and I could write 50 more times on that than what I've written about this! Don't worry, I won't!

Beerpig & Boozy, thanks for your suggestions and I'll follow through on these. So true what you say Beerpig about sometimes it's just the way you look at things.

PoppaJoe: Are you being naughty again! LOL! Hope all is well with you!

Thanks everyone. Thankfully and hopefully, I think that's all I have to say!


----------



## jagerbrau (6/3/06)

it all comes down to ones own choices, no beer smoke companies do not start some one off, it is there own choice. i have never heard anyone use the excuse that, well while i wasnt looking they stuck a pint down my neck, and gee what do you know im adictated.

yes i have an issue with media portrail of smoking and drinking, seldom does it show the negative side. 

i personally find it hard to have empathy for some one that started some thing by there own choices. i have worked with people addicted to herion most of my life. but even in there situation you still have to have some empathy.

when i started this stream i mixed two topics , alchool abuse and that of the mega swill giants.

i have for the last 4 years heard beer executives talk that is what leed me to a hate of the marketing of the swill.

i should of kept the two topics apart. by writing of my mates situation, i hope to open eyes (it has with in my circle of friends) and get people to realise that education is the answer. it also helps me.


i dont know if anyone has had to explain to the patiant and the familly why a liver transplant is not going to happen. sorry he did him self and there are people out there who deserve it more. its not easy. dont wish it on anyone.

just healthy discussion and to know what really goes on is the way to go.

sorry for rambles.


----------



## jagerbrau (6/3/06)

good to hear you gave up smoking, wish i had the power to do it. i smoked once and just stoped, no will power, dont know why just did. pistol patch thanks for the good words


----------



## jagerbrau (9/3/06)

Interesting that marketing has no exects on anything, why is coopers availiable interstate, when in 97 you would ask for it in a bar in vic that stocked it and the staff wouldnt know what it was. marketing, back then wasnt marketed interstate. when did it become a popular beer in SA about 97 when the marketing here got more.

Most companys spend more on marketing and market research than they do on research and development. i have a few friends in the marketing area and comercial art. they tell me that how it is marketed and how it looks is more important than the quality. Just look at the mega swill, spend lots on the marketing but very little on the product.

most people i know that includes people with drinking problems, have been swayed by advertising. i know a lot of of VB drinkers who can not tell it from west end, why did they start drinking VB, the old hard earned thirst, they look at westend drinkers as want to by yuppies.

most of these people say that they were influenced in the mid teen years even on beer. god i even drank west end at 14 because of the adds god knows never enjoy the stuff.

wasnt till i was 18 a mate and i went out and i said some thing to him about some imported beers. i was introduced to heinies by a dutch exchange student at the age of 11 (not a great beer but better than most local mega swill). The bar we used to go to every friday night had a range of aboout 30 to 40 imports.

we never would of drank those beers as were not advertised. if marketing doesnt influence what we buy what explains the ipod, it is successful marketing.

of all the heavy drinkers that i know they started on the heavly marketed mega swill. its not blaming the companys.

what i find funny is that more people have agree with this via PM than have not.


----------



## jagerbrau (9/3/06)

most also add that we make our own desicions is true, im 30 to 40 kg over weight at moment, i have tended to blame circumstance and other things. went to eat some garbage food the other day and i klicked. this is not what i really want to eat. so went out and got what i wanted.

been doing this plus back excersing and have lost about 2kg and feel alot better. alot in the brain i think.


----------



## Boozy the clown (9/3/06)

Fags and booze, at least we know how they will kill us, albiet slowly and painfully (with good times inbetween)

I have recently dealt with people smoking 'Ice'. Now that stuff is fu&^[email protected] up. These people have lost their mind, and have no respect for anyone, including themselves.

Dunno why i'd put this point up, guess just to say that our vices and pecadillos are not quite as damaging as some.


----------



## Boozy the clown (9/3/06)

Oh yes, and there is no-one advertising "Ice". Its all word of mouth, I reckon its safe to say it's not even glamorised in film, even that shows how it takes a person's mind.

Can just imagine the ice smokers forum "We're just plain 'ol mad"

Just for some realism, I dealt with this Ice smoker, he had been badly cut and needed about 50 stiches and micro surgery, his main beef? 
"Man, i cant find my smokes!"


----------



## Screwtop (9/3/06)

Like Merc says, even in a state of physical addiction one is able to be responsible for ones decisions. I wanted to give up smoking about 1980 but was not prepared to own the decision as I would have then had to proceed with the coscequences. First an uncle then an aunt and then another uncle all died from lung cancer, still not enough motivation. Then my dad was next in 1985, I watched as it took 12 months to kill him. Visiting him in hospital in summer he was wearing long pyjama pants. I asked if he had shorty pyjamas to wear as they would be cooler. Dad said he did not want the others in the ward seeing his legs as they were so thin, his thighs were about 3" in diameter by then. He died on Xmas Eve. The packet of cigarettes in my pocket went in the bin, I finally had the motivation. Fine for me, mum was then diagnosed with smoking related throat cancer, underwent radical throat surgery, tracheotomy and voice prosthesis surgery. She loved to talk and tell stories, we would talk until the wee small hours, but that was all over, she really never was able to handle the speech prosthesis due to shortness of breath from emphesimia. She finally went the same way as dad and weighed just 32kg before she died. Both mum and dad had the strength to own their decisions. They both had made bad choices and wished things had turned out differently, but they blamed no-one else. Sometimes I think that if there had been more information regarding smoking related illness available years ago they just might have chosen to make the decision to quit. The deaths of loved ones due to such illnesses is certainly educating in the most graphic of ways. My decision to quit was made easy by these circumstances, but it was then that I decided that never again would I wait for such motivation before owning a decision.


----------



## PistolPatch (9/3/06)

[EDIT: I was pretty exhausted when I wrote the following. A far more appropriate repsonse to Screwtop follows in my next post.]

Excellent post Screwtop! I won't write with as much of a response as your post deserves tonight. Immediately though, your story summarises the sadness and joy of individual responsibility, where it should be allocated and what you, the individual, can do about it. What great parents to have, Screwtop!

Looks as though they didn't allocate blame for their predicament but certainly had a desire to prevent others making, 'their,' mistake, if we can even really call it, theirs'. (I know it makes it easy for everyone to say, 'their,' but on a slower re-read of what I have written above, I think you will see why I think this is a very shallow answer.) I wish everyone was like your parents, Screwtop.

Your post has so many realistic and positive ramificiations I really want to think on it for a few days before replying properly.

Be forewarned, my next post to this thread will probably be a long one and as this thread relates to individual responsibility, any complaints on my next post should be directed soley at Screwtop!!!

Cheers
PP

P.S. Have been a little short of time in past few days but have kept a very quick eye on this thread. Just like to say, Jag and Boozy, good on you for dealing with the drug addicts etc. I pride myself on my tolerance levels yet would find myself totally bewildered and non-compassionate within 2 seconds of doing your jobs!

P.P.S. Jag. Interesting comment about the PM's. This is simply because the excellent topic you raised is such a grey area. No one is trained in how to deal with grey areas. I taught on how to deal with with this stuff for 14 years and I still felt awkward posting my long-winded posts here! I can and have dealt with this stuff verbally yet have no experience in writing on such areas so I have no idea whether people can, 'hear,' what I write. In fact, I felt a lot awkward until getting a great PM from you!

Hey Jag! I just thought that you're getting PM's on this and I'm getting bugger all! I think I just lost all my confidence! 

You have started a great thread though Jag. I'm guessing here that it may actually continue for some time as there are so many people on this site and, at varying stages in our lives, what has been written above will be more relevant.

I love my beer. I love cracking jokes. Threads like this though challenge me to really think! Good on you Jag!

And the above was just a quick note!!!! Sorry guys! I do actually consciously, try really hard to be brief!


----------



## PistolPatch (10/3/06)

I think I was actually punch drunk with exhaustion when I wrote the post above. There won't be a long-winded response from me Screwtop. Instead, and far more appropriately, I would simply like to say thank you.

Your post whilst extremely sad also radiates a beauty which I imagine is your parent's light shining through you.

I think you may have even given me some motivation to stop smoking using existing methods available instead of using my current excuse to wait until I develop my own.

Thank you Screwtop.
PP


----------



## PistolPatch (3/4/07)

I must say that this thread is way overdue for a bump.

If you take the time to read it, you'll actually see some of the most important stuff you will ever read on AHB. 

You will also see the motivation behind one or two loveable characters on AHB.

I've always had it in the back of my mind to re-visit this thread but until now, I've never needed to.

I've done so tonight due to a kindness I was shown here in Perth by DoogieChap who has gone several thousand miles out of his way to welcome me here in Perth. This is a rare quality in any state.

I'm damn glad I did have a look back here because I know that he will love this thread.

He'll love it as no one could possibly disagree that more than any other thread I have ever seen on AHB, this thread makes people think about important stuff.

I can't believe that only a year ago I actually had the guts to post the following. Pretty sure I did this one sober too - lol! Since then I have made several life-long friends on AHB - people I totally trust and am at ease with. It just goes to show...

Here's the bump* - Whoops! Looks like my forthright manner hasn't changed a bit!.....

"There's a lot of interesting thoughts above and my best wishes go to those of you who have or are experiencing a loss of someone close to you. I think most of us can relate to the above and would have experienced some of it.

I also think some interesting observations have been made above on choice and happiness. Like the beer advertising, I believe that the New Age has lead to some false perceptions of choice and happiness.

For 14 years I taught seminars on advanced thinking. One of the major areas I addressed was the concept of free will. The New Age movement actively promotes the fallacy that people have total choice or free will.

As Screwtop mentioned above, people experiencing depression etc., have far lower levels of healthy choice than the next person. I have taught people who have had a sibling killed by serial killers (the Perth people will remember the Birnies), a young woman who had her children shot and her leg shot off by her husband, right through to an extraordinary case where one bloke had had 1 father and 5 stepfathers! Interestingly enough, the above cases now have a lot greater abilities in making choices for happiness than they did previously. Whilst they have higher levels of free will than most, they still don't have total free will.

I believe that some of us have, through luck or whatever, been given a little more choice than others. A retarded person will generally have lesser choices than a person with an average IQ and if you've just broken up with your partner, you're generally not able to choose as wisely as at other times especially if you're like me!

I used to ask participants in my seminar why they were so lucky to be sitting there instead of living on the streets. Most people would say they made the right choices which to me is totally irrelevant and I believe incorrect. Who knows why some have more choice than others? Did retarded people choose the wrong parents? Did the person with cancer choose to have that disease? Some New Agers will say, 'Yes.' A shallow and unproductive way of thought when applied in this manner.

As I just said, finding a reason as to why you may have a higher ability to choose than others is irrelevant. If you do have average or above average levels of being able to consciously make beneficial choices I think it is far better off asking the questions, 'What am I doing with my level of choice?' and 'What can I do to be of service to those experiencing lower levels of choice?' These to me are the only relevant questions.

Asking these two questions leads to productive outcomes such as better education as mentioned above which in turn leads to a general rise in happiness.

Some people will always be ahead of us in certain areas and maybe a little behind us in some areas. I have some very advanced skills in certain areas and am child-like in others. Often I am able to use my more advanced skills to shine a little joy in some dark places of an individual or simply lift the general level of happiness in a group. THis in turn increases my level of happiness.

Knowing also that I am only a child in many areas helps me minimise, to some extent, some of my stupidity and when I do actually exhibit stupidity I can groan at myself, then have a laugh and hopefully learn a little. This results in a slighlty quicker return to productivity and happiness.

When I see others battling with a difficulty, I see them as a child in that area. Helping a child who is struggling to grow is fun and rewarding. Expecting everyone to always act like adults and make correct choices constantly is unrealistic and personally unsatisfying.

Compassion is a very enabling thinking skill which leads to very valuable thinking tools. Education in the areas Screwtop mentioned above is a great example of the tool. Screwtop mentioning this reveals compassion which I believe we can all never have enough of. When used correctly it lightens us instead of weighing us down. It can even actually bring us joy when faced with some of the terrible things mentioned above or in the situations where we are unfortunatley unable to teach or help an adult 'child'.

I think that whilst there are many things we will never understand there are still many more things we can actually do.

Best wishes all."

* Agh! I could write for hours on this - you know who you are! Annoys me but that I can't mention each and every person on AHB that has made a huge difference to me.


----------



## PistolPatch (3/4/07)

Whoops! Forgot to mention one thing...

And one day, I'm going to sit down and write down all the names of the guys that helped me out and I can still see helping others out. Funnily enough, a lot of them contributed to this thread!

Agh! I'm tired again and a little worn-out...

But you get that from time to time.

Anyway, for tonight, that's my thinking!

Pat


----------



## therook (3/4/07)

Pete,

You keep coming up with the goods, another great post.

Your right, there are some friendly helpful people on this Forum, they know who they are, we know who they are and thats all that matters.

You have probably done more for the newbie with some of your Threads so from a newbie to AG....thank you

Your last post will have me thinking about many things for the rest of the day

 

Rook


----------



## PistolPatch (3/4/07)

Good on ya Rook!

This is scary stuff posting from the West Coast. You wake up and find that everyone on the east coast has read your posts before your morning edits!

I was going to delete both of the above but too late now. I actually have deleted most of the second one as it wasn't really accurate at all - just ramblings!

It's a very interesting thread though eh?

Thanks a heap for the PM mate. Really appreciate that,
Pat

P.S. I think I need two things to keep me in line - a wife and light beer!!!

P.P.S. Uh oh! Just had another glance at that first post - about half of that could go too but I have to go to work immediately. Whoops! Anyway Rook, the fact that someone like you liked it makes me more than happy


----------



## Screwtop (3/4/07)

Must be the time of year Patch! You're waxing all Deep and Meaningfull again  

Like most I've experienced a few setbacks in life, and made plenty of decisions that weren't the best. In business if only 50% of the decisions I made in a day turned out to be bad decisions I was doing ok. Look back over your life and think about how many bad decisions you've made. Concentrate on the really bad ones and I'll bet you can't remember that many. Most people have trouble remembering more than six really bad decisions they've made. At first you think you'll remember heaps, but when it comes down to the really, really bad ones, it's not so many. Sometimes it's not the decision that's bad, but the maintainance/support of the decision. More a series of decisions made because the first decision supports making many more decisions in an unconcious manner. Such as taking up smoking, is that a bad decision, probably not. Is continuing to smoke a bad decision, probably yes, is allowing the habit to grow to 60 a day a good decision probably not, but is the decision made conciously each time you light up. A bit like Patch writing long posts, he starts out with good intentions but quite unconciously continues to write until he's used up his entire Mb limit for the month in one post  

Something a person said to me when I was about 10 years old stuck with me and has been a yardstick in my life. "ya know boy, lots of things in life seem hard, till you've done em", a stern old bugger he was, but he sure had a handle on life. As for AG brewing or anything else you take on, remember that!

The early part of my life was spent in an orphanage, I have no regrets or wishes that things were different, decisions surrounding that part of my life were made by others. When you're able to make your own decisions make one important one first. Surround yourself with good souls and positive friends, it makes the bad decisions easier to handle!

Deciding to begin AG brewing has been a positive one for me, have met some terrific people, many of them I see as absolute masters of the craft (my favorite speech topic). The beers many of these brewers turn out are so good, and yet they strive for improvement, even brewing outside of the square with amazing results, they are inspiring positive people. 

On ya Patch! now, no more of this crap again until next year, do you find Autumn depressing or something  

Screwy


----------



## domonsura (3/4/07)

Wow. This is a thread and a half.
I'd like to agree with most of the things that have been said here. You have to get every morning and take it as it comes, smile anyway when something doesn't go your way, and thank your lucky stars when it does.
Since I was a kid I've always been one of these people who 'if it can go wrong, it will', but on the same token, always been the one lucky enough to walk away with a second chance and the opportunity to reflect on what it was that I did wrong.
I've only ever been blessed with a small circle of friends (probably due to my abrasive personality), and over the years I've seen every single one of the originals leave us, due to motorbike accidents, drug overdoses, alcoholism and the big C. It's been hard to stand beside so many holes in the ground and look mothers, fathers, wives and children in the eye and try to help them see anything positive in what's happened. At times I've felt like a professional funeral goer, I've even been asked if I was employed by the funeral parlour by one person. :blink: 
I'm not a religious person because to me religion and politics are too closely intertwined, but all I've ever been able to say to them is, "Get up in the morning, and thank whoever you thank that you've been blessed with some more sunshine and the chance to live it right."
Personally I've also had far too many opportunities to take my own advice, and have spent more than my fair share of time inside intensive care facilities through motorbike accidents, a serious housefire that should have killed me (3rd degree burns to 50% of me), and other 'incidents' while young and dumb. Divorce at 19, death of a partner and child at 21, you name it, at times I've felt like a crash test dummy for life in general. 
Just last weekend, I had a great evening at the Wheatsheaf seeing Kai off, and met a bunch a great characters in the flesh, the first opportunity I'd had to meet most of them. What an awesome bunch of blokes I tell ya, had quite a bit too much to drink, and felt bloody shocking in the morning with a combined hangover, and the beginnings of the flu bug that has laid my household low for the last week, yesterday morning saw me off to the doctors to try reel the bug in before it got too bad, and left the surgery with a little bit of bad news that life is about to get a bit complicated at the age of 34. Bit of a shock, and no more beer for a 'while'.  But shit happens doesn't it.
But my point is, I woke up this morning. I'll wake up tomorrow. Some days will be good and others not so good. We carry on, we kiss our wives and kids and smile, we remember the good people we've known in the past and feel lucky for the good ones we know now. Because this is life, it may be short but it's what we make it.
May as well make it smile


----------



## Fents (3/4/07)

domonsura said:


> But my point is, I woke up this morning. I'll wake up tomorrow. Some days will be good and others not so good. We carry on, we kiss our wives and kids and smile, we remember the good people we've known in the past and feel lucky for the good ones we know now. Because this is life, it may be short but it's what we make it.
> May as well make it smile



:beerbang: That is quite possibly the best thing i may ever read. Biggups!


----------



## chimera (3/4/07)

Slightly to the left - maybe.
One of the saddest things I've ever seen was groups of my mates getting heavily involved in the drug scene. Some of them played at the edges, others dived in head first. At first it seemed like nothing, but before long all weekend dance parties, raves, became the norm. If you ever want a reason for not taking drugs I could relate stories about friends i'd known for half a dozen years or more, gone to school, university, spent years of our lives going to pubs week in week out looking at you through glazed eyes and not recognising you.

Getting calls from other mates at 3am asking if you can come down and help take a friend home. Having to try to convince them to get into the car when they are more interested in talking to a downpipe, having to watch them for 12 hour straight cos they are convinced they have been abducted and trying to escape from their own house. Watching as some people show concern and try to help their friend, watching as numerous other 'mates' who should be concerned just aren't.

And despite the trouble you can feel nothing but gut wrenching sorrow for them as you watch them struggle for months to get their mind back. Watch as long term relationships crack up, job opportunities vanish, people that used to be open and friendly become suspicious and guarded. People you used to see almost daily take months to finally come up to you and say sorry, and then disappear over the social horizon.

Addiction & compulsion are strange things, I believe some people are definitely more at risk to it, whereas some can turn it off and walk away others cannot. I quit smoking some time back and am glad to be rid of it. Since quitting i have taken to smoking on the annual end of season trips away and bathurst weekends, but it's an old habit i indulge once or twice a year. I also have found myself recently cracking another longneck from the fridge around the time I know I should be knocking off for bed. The old man is a compulsive drinker who once started will drink to oblivion, I suppose the bug is there for me too.


----------



## Fents (3/4/07)

Being a retired DJ i know all too well about drugs and friends, but its the same with anything isnt it? Some people eat food, some people drink, some people smoke....

My mums an alcoholic. My childhood was surronded by her alcholism. I've learnt first hand where to draw the line.

Addictions are weird as you said some people can walk away, others cant.


----------



## Wardhog (3/4/07)

domonsura said:


> yesterday morning saw me off to the doctors to try reel the bug in before it got too bad, and left the surgery with a little bit of bad news that life is about to get a bit complicated at the age of 34. Bit of a shock, and no more beer for a 'while'.  But shit happens doesn't it.
> But my point is, I woke up this morning. I'll wake up tomorrow. Some days will be good and others not so good. We carry on, we kiss our wives and kids and smile, we remember the good people we've known in the past and feel lucky for the good ones we know now. Because this is life, it may be short but it's what we make it.
> May as well make it smile



Wow, I wish I had your strength. 
I keep telling myself things like what you've just said, but it's taken me a lot of years to even acknowledge the possibility of being able to think this way.
I have MS, I was diagnosed 7 years ago. It could come and take my sight, my legs, my ability to do anything, at any time or it might not take any more. It's already made off with my balance, and is working on my physical strength. Coupling this with my only child being born with an intellectual and physical disability, it makes for a pretty grim outlook on life.
You don't know if you'll be able to work this time next year, you worry about paying bills, how things are going to be when (not if) this eventuates.

I am only just starting to use 'if' and not 'when' after this long period of time, and it feels really good.

However, this thread has made me see that as much as I don't want to believe it, things could be worse. Much worse.


----------



## Andyd (3/4/07)

Guys, it's nice to run across a D&M thread from time to time.

I couldn't agree more with the assessment that personal responsibility is being erroded all the time - not just with respect to advertising or marketting, but also in terms of regulation and legislation. The whole "Nobody told me I'd break my neck if I dive into this water without first checking the depth" argument drives me stupid, and the success of such arguments is having a severley detrimental effect on our own personal freedoms.

For me there is a survival of the fitest element here - if you're stupid enough to dive in and do break your neck, is it my problem? I don't think so, and I certainly don't think you deserve a 6 figure payout to compensate you for your own stupidity... particularly if it comes at my (even small) expense.

On another note, the whole Freedom of choice argument doesn't wash completely clean with me either, but perhaps I'm being to pedantic about it. My wife is a psychologist who is keen to point out that we always have choices...

I think that in fact we always have options. Whether we would (or even could) choose any one of these options is another matter. For (an extreme) example, someone kidnaps your child, and instructs you to pay them $1M without contacting police, or they;ll kill the child. What are your options? You could: 
pay the ransom
contact the police
hunt down the kidnappers yourself
do nothing
Now, my wife might argue that I have 4 choices here, however would I ever consider the last two? If not, then I have no choice but to select from the first two options.

Can you imaging a scenario where all of the available options are undesirable? Do you make the choice, or does your environment choose for you? Did the ant you stepped on this morning choose to end it's life at that moment? There are some outcomes that you just have no control over, and some which you will just fail to manage risk around. 

At the end of the day it comes back to personal responsibility. Forget about teaching people that they can always choose - this might be a useful argument to treat people who feel helpless, but it only goes so far. A more valuable schooling would involve being taught about responsibility, accountability and the conscious management of the risks out environment throws at us.

Gee I hope that all made sense....


----------



## PistolPatch (3/4/07)

Very impressive stuff guys and that's all I'm saying.

I'm doing a 60 hour week at the moment and don't stop for a second during those hours. At the end of the day I am drunk with exhaustion. The last thing I should be doing is coming home, having a beer and getting on AHB where I seem to fall into a state of fugue. The amount of time I spent on here last night was truly ridiculous - lol. Some of what I have been writing has also been truly ridiculous!

Anyway, I hope you guys keep writing as you have been above. Email notifications of this topic I will certainly look forward to.

And Screwtop, it doesn't seem like only a year ago eh? But you're spot on. It was this time last year when I was last running on overload and doing a rash of wild posting - lol. Looks like I win the award for AHB's Most Out of Control Poster for March two years running. Someone else can have April's 

Top stuff guys - catch you soon,
Pat


----------



## Paleman (3/4/07)

domonsura said:


> Wow. This is a thread and a half.
> I'd like to agree with most of the things that have been said here. You have to get every morning and take it as it comes, smile anyway when something doesn't go your way, and thank your lucky stars when it does.
> Since I was a kid I've always been one of these people who 'if it can go wrong, it will', but on the same token, always been the one lucky enough to walk away with a second chance and the opportunity to reflect on what it was that I did wrong.
> I've only ever been blessed with a small circle of friends (probably due to my abrasive personality), and over the years I've seen every single one of the originals leave us, due to motorbike accidents, drug overdoses, alcoholism and the big C. It's been hard to stand beside so many holes in the ground and look mothers, fathers, wives and children in the eye and try to help them see anything positive in what's happened. At times I've felt like a professional funeral goer, I've even been asked if I was employed by the funeral parlour by one person. :blink:
> ...




For all your lifes experiences domonsura, your awefully short with other forum members, and your opinions are the end and be end of all.

For someone who has been through so much..........you would think that tolerance of others is high on your list of prioritys. I dont find this of you. As you mentioned in your own post

Quote " (probably due to my abrasive personality) " 

Change your abrasivness somewhat and you would be a top bloke, with a lot of lifes experiences to hand out, and share. Which would help many.


----------



## Screwtop (3/4/07)

Paleman said:


> For all your lifes experiences domonsura, your awefully short with other forum members, and your opinions are the end and be end of all.
> 
> For someone who has been through so much..........you would think that tolerance of others is high on your list of prioritys. I dont find this of you. As you mentioned in your own post
> 
> ...




Hey Dom don't take this too much to heart, one thing nobody has control over is how other people react, take the politicians stance. 30% of em will love ya, 30% of em will hate ya, and the other 30% of em won't give a shit.


----------



## Paleman (3/4/07)

Screwtop said:


> Hey Dom don't take this too much to heart, one thing nobody has control over is how other people react, take the politicians stance. 30% of em will love ya, 30% of em will hate ya, and the other 30% of em won't give a shit.



I'm on the fence, Screwtop. I actually love Doms abrasivness. His willinness to fight. For some reason, ive been at the other end of some of his online battles :blink: 

As ive mentioned, theres more behind the man. There has been some run ins between him and i, but i wont judge him just yet.

Im the sort of guy that lives day by day. An argument is quickly forgotten.


----------



## Batz (3/4/07)

Paleman said:


> Im the sort of guy that lives day by day. An argument is quickly forgotten.



And a shame more people did not think this way

Best yet!






Batz


----------



## Yeasty (3/4/07)

Paleman said:


> For all your lifes experiences domonsura, your awefully short with other forum members, and your opinions are the end and be end of all.



Im not going to get into a sling match here, but i must say in the short time ive been a member here, Dom is a nice guy.

Dont judge a person by a few posts on a forum, its not worth stressing over.

I agree with all the things said here, currently dealing with a stressful problem atm after a bad "life choice" myself that i can see was through my own fault.

I just wake up and carry on appreciating the people and small things in my life that make me happy. Its no good trying to teach others ive found, unless they choose to have an open mind. All it leads to is frustration in the end which isnt worth the trouble for both parties.


----------



## capretta (4/4/07)

well i never!  i was actually interested in the zen being thrown around before godzilla and mothra came with the flame war!!  

back on the topic, quitting is hard but more so because of the language we use to define it. 
Quitting is such a black/white term.

i have "quit" many things in my life but i have found being "quit" is a state of constant flux, a very fluid state where sometimes you are more quit than other times. i have found that i have to practice "quit", constantly, trying to improve on my last effort. even as cravings become less physical and more mental they require different strategies and even if you "fail" at this point you become more familiar with your weakness- you can improve next time. 

understanding the fluidity of "quit" and even of life, that there are black/white absolutes only as abstractions, to provide the grey playground where we all live, really helped me.

ok, back to the frivolous iron on tshirt transfer thread!!


----------



## Lukes (4/4/07)

As this thread is getting a bit ugly now I would like to quote some Monty Python Life of Brian script as we are approaching Easter.*

**Crucified Man III:* Cheer up, Brian! You know what they say?
*Crucified Man III:* Some things in life are bad
they can really make you mad,
other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle,
don't grumble, give a whistle!
And this'll help things turn out for the best:
And...always look on the bright side of life,*
Crucified Man III:* [Whistle]
*Crucified Man III:* Always look on the light side of life,
*Crucified Man III:* [Whistle]
*Crucified Man III:*
If life seems jolly rotten, there's something you've forgotten,
and that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing,
when you're feeling in the dumps, don't be silly chumps,
just perch your lips and whistle, that's the key.
And always look on the bright side of life,
*Crucifixion Party:* [Whistle]
*Crucifixioned Man III*: Come on!
*Crucifixioned Man III:* always look on the right side of life,
*Crucifixion Party:* [Whistle]
*Crucified Man III & Crucified Man IV:*
For life is quite absurd, and death's the final word,
you must always face the curtain with a bow,
forget about your sin, give the audience a grin,
*Crucified Man III & Crucifixion Party:*
enjoy, it's your last chance anyhow.
So, always look on the bright side of death.
*Crucifixion Party:* [Whistle]
*Crucified Man III & Crucifixion Party:*
Ah, just before you draw your terminal breath,
*Crucifixion Party:* [Whistle]
*Crucified Man III:*
Life's a piece of shit, when you look at it,
life's a laugh, and death's a joke, it's true.
You'll see it's all a show, people laughing as you go,
just remember that the last laugh is on you!
*Crucified Man III & Crucifixion Party:*
And always look on the bright side of life,
*Crucifixion Party:* [Whistle]
*Crucified Man III & Crucifixion Party:*
Always look on the right side of life,
*Crucifixion Party:* [Whistle]
*Crucifixioned Man III:* Come on, Brian! Cheer up!
*Crucified Man III & Crucifixion Party:*
Always look on the bright side of life,
*Crucifixion Party:* [Whistle]
*Crucified Man III & Crucifixion Party:*
always look on the right side of life,
*Crucifixion Party:* [Whistle]
*Crucifixioned Man III:* Worse things happens to see, you know.
*Crucified Man III & Crucifixion Party:*
always look on the right side of life,
*Crucifixion Party:* [Whistle]
*Crucifixioned Man III:* I mean, what have you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing, you're going back to nothing, 
what have you lost? Nothing!
*Crucified Man III & Crucifixion Party:*
always look on the right side of life,
*Crucifixion Party:* [Whistle]
*Crucified Man III:* Nothing will come from nothing, you know what they say?
*Crucified Man III & Crucifixion Party:*
always look on the right side of life,
*Crucifixion Party:* [Whistle]
*Crucified Man III: *Cheer up, you old bugger! Come on! Give us a grin! There you are! See?





*
* BTW: I was just busted whistling at work  .*

*- Luke*
*


----------



## domonsura (4/4/07)

You can always rely on Monty P
Whenever I need a laugh I just think of the 'Fat bastard' clip.

"Won't you have a mint sir?"
:lol:


----------



## dane (4/4/07)

We don't need this stuff posted - sort it out via emails/pm.

Thread clean-up in progress.

OK - keep thread on topic please.


----------



## InCider (6/4/07)

I wrote this a week or two ago. Suzi is my mother in law, and my wife is Pam. Her brother died in an car accident before I met her, this piece (errors and type etc) is how I deal with the loss of her brother/son and how I have related the bit of his.. memories. Sorry it's so long.

Sean.

Gday me ole Cock Sparrow.



Dear Jim,

I dont know where to start mate, so Ill tell you why I am writing this to you. I feel I know you, that Im an adopted part of your family and Pam Suzie have done the best job in making me fit in. As men, we have certain code like a brotherhood. A set of rules and understandings that need not be uttered, just obeyed. I hope, and am sure you understand, that I am obeying our creed to the letter. Im your brother. I want you to know Im doing the right thing by you.

Suzie has taken a devastating body blow with your passing, and has taken some time in healing. This is to be expected and she is a beautiful woman who has carried on with life regardless but does take time out to mourn for one of her greatest accomplishments: You. She has adopted me as the man I am, never a replacement for you mate, for you are irreplaceable. I know this just from watching these two amazing women.

Pam, your big sister is kind hearted and generous to a fault. And as you would see if we hung out together, she needs to be tolerant. She took your loss hard too, but with Zander and your mum taking priority for caring and affection, I do believe she has neglected to mourn your loss to the extent she needs to. If you can bro, send her a sign. And one for your mum also.

As you well know now, I have been given some of you belongings. It has been said that Im cheap and that may be true, but it has been part of the healing process for the ladies, a line where emotion goes left and common sense the other. There is a brutal practicality being exercised with some of your things. I say brutal as of the few remaining pieces, there must be a plethora of simple, happy and carefree memories ready to reawaken the pain of your going. If there is something I need, Suzie or Pam never hesitate to say things like: I think Jim has one. It should be in the shed. Take it. If its not being used, take it. It makes sense doesnt it?

I went camping to Rainbow Beach a year or so ago with a mate I used to knock around with in Sydney called Pat. Hes been a good mate, but not the kind of guy to ever own more outdoor kit than a sleeping bag. I needed to make sure he had gear when he got off the plane, and in my preparations, your camping gear was offered. I used lots of your camping gear mate, and Id like to thank you, but I did something there with my mate to show you were not forgotten.

We both wore some of your old flannelette jackets against the cool evening air that may. Nice days, but the contrasting nights were quite chilly. I said to Pat: Man, these jackets were Pams late brothers. They said I could take them camping. Just so you know. How do you feel about that? I expected Pat to come up with some offhand comment in a Roy & HG accent about dead men telling no tales while he knowingly tapped his nose with his index finger, but he just nodded. A nod of respect to you Jim. He understood. We spoke out loud to the stars that night to you, a prayer of thanks, acknowledgement and brotherhood. When a man shares, its his observation to his duty, solidarity with his mates and basic common sense.

We both wore the clothes you had worn, walked in, laughed in and I thank you. I especially liked the grey tartan one.

I mentioned earlier, or rather, asked you to send a sign to the ladies. Did you have a hand in the Rooster that I was given? I think your mum thought so, and if it was your doing, thank you. She got something quite special out of it. Incidentally, the lady who gave me that was one of my staff at work. She wasnt making the grade and she was slated to be managed out. She was given to me to look after; so all the documentation would be in order if we had to go to the unfair dismissal people. I wont lie and tell you I was stoked about it, much the opposite. More work, more time, and the task I had been given was made worse by the news that her future was decided and it was not to be with our company. Her name is June, she is in her fifties and is recently landed from Zimbabwe. A challenge many older people in the workplace face apart from computers is the pace required for some tasks to be completed in. In my workplace, there is a ratio of quality to output that is a stumbling block to many. They focus so much on doing one task right, that they could have done ten tasks in the same time with reasonably quality. And they appear slow when they are conscientious. June is one of these.

I had been made aware that that June had twelve weeks until her probation was up, and in that time dismissal was an option that did not need to be justified it would be a business decision. No explanations necessary. Goodbye.

June got to me. Iron willed, punctual, obedient, and able to accept constructive feedback and use it. That is all well and good. But June was in the Fuhrer bunker and the Russians had just entered Berlin. The mantle of pressure is enough to make most people smell the roses and just quit. But not this determined woman. She was in the for whole ride, and I believe she was willing to take the failure if she was not good enough, but had to do her best nonetheless. She had something banging in her head along with her gritted teeth and that was pride. There was not a snowballs chance in hell that she was going to take the easy road and surrender.

But it is said that the road to hell is paved with best intentions isnt it?

As far as my manager was concerned it was just a matter of collating the burden of proof required so she could be dismissed due to the economics of her sub standard performance.

And sometimes I agreed. I put more time in coaching and educating this lady in the ways and habits of the role she was in than anybody else Id ever managed. It was a very frustrating time for both of us. Sometimes I would be so apathetic regarding her minimal improvement that I was willing so just give up on her and let things run their course.

But she wouldnt just give up. So who am I to play god with someones job when Ive given up? I tell you Jim; she slowly became an inspiration to me. She turned up everyday as if it was her first, and plugged away, no matter how oppressive her situation was.

So I went in to bat for her. Hard. My manager asked me point blank for my opinion as to whether we keep her or not, as much to see what I thought to see if I agreed that she should be let go. See ya June. It was fun etc.

To say he was less that impressed with my answer is an understatement, but the conversation went like this: Sean what do you think about June? Shes not getting any better. What do you think we should do? 

My manager is a good guy to work for, but he is manipulative and only asks questions he knows the answers to.

So, knowing this, I replied in the usual fashion, hunting for the answer hes hunting for: Whadda you reckon Pete? Whats made you go one way or the other?. 

Pete came straight to the point after that and said that he was close to arriving at a decision, but wanted my honest, unbiased professional opinion. I gave him the honest part: Mate, if it was my business, Id rather have her on side, even with the challenges she has, than some of the high-flyers who only need a pair if chaps to complete their cowboy outfit. I believe she should stay. And Id like her to stay in my team.

Pete thought about this for a while before asking me what chaps were.

A few weeks later he called me into his office for a quick word. This could be anything from a reprimand, a compliment or him just letting you know hed picked the perfect round in the footy tipping on the weekend. As I entered he dispensed with the wave that indicated I should take a seat and looked at me directly, stopping me short of taking a seat. He told me she had passed her probation. I could tell by his brusque manner that his decision would have been different had it not been for my vote of confidence, and if I was proved wrong, would not hesitate in drawing attention to my poor ability to judge character.

Later that day I asked June to come and see me on one of our meeting room we use for private discussions. Being the tease I am I made sure I dispensed with all niceties to give the impression I was steeling myself to deliver a hard truth. Some time later when we were both seated on opposite sides of the table, I slammed down my fist in frustration. The shock on Junes face was palpable, and she was asked why we were there. I leant back in my chair, exhaling as I went, my head shaking from side to side.

June is made of tough stuff. You dont spend your life as a white farmer in the South Africa without having the ability to defend your family and think for yourself. But as I locked my eyes with hers I knew my mixed messages were sending her into a tailspin.

I shook my head for ten more seconds and said: About your probation letting the words hang like Damocles sword I have spoken to Pete, and well, he wouldnt listen. I told him of your great improvements of late, but to no avail. Im sorry.

June managed the conceal most of here emotion as the news she would be shown the door was delivered. Thats one thing I like about June. She takes bad news with dignitary, humility and makes a noticible resolve to move forward. She looked sad. Her eyes said to me thank you for being my champion, thank you for your understanding and thank you for believing in me. Humble to the end, not fighting anger or frustration or disappointment, just humble and grateful for the opportunity she had been given.

By this time Id seen what I wanted to see - just how close she believed she thought she was to being told youre not good enough. 

I gave my Cheshire cat grin and stood up. As I moved around to her side of the table, she rose politely, but I asked her to sit. I had more to say and I wanted it to be as friends rather than our rank. We sat shoulder to shoulder in this stuffy little meeting room, looking at rows of desks, cubicles and phones outside as the business hummed on. I looked her in the eye and told June their was three more pieces of bad news: One, Im joking. Two, Youre staying and Three, Youre in my team. Junes relief was immense. She hugged me quickly and composed herself before making excuses as to why she should really have gone. June, you work harder than almost anyone here you can see. I do not care that you are not the best, but you do and try your best. I cant ask for much more. And mate, Im fond of you. Youre tough.

The next day she came to my desk with a package a present the wrapping paper told me. I opened it to find a hand crafted rooster, made from steel and painted in a bronze gloss. Made from scrap on her farm in Zimbabwe by one of her staff. With sharp feathers, tail and beak this cock had the posture required of the head of the finest brood.

Jim, I have shared this detail with you, as I am told they were your favorite animal. The look on your Mums face when I came home with this gift was as though it was a sign. 

There are many things I know about you, but many more that I do not. Pam tells me many stories from your childhood that help me define who you are in my mind. The ones I can think of are swallowing a peach seed, eating a cockroach, nearly dropping bricks on nephews with Dave to see the brains come out. I heard of walking to the beach from Kimbarra Court, growing dope in the backyard, and taking Zanders baby seat out and placing it in the boot while cruising around. You and I have some things in common home brewing, growing special plants, playstation, but its the little things that make it special for me. On your computer, apart from the smiley faces, you have an icon called Kill em all let god sort em out. That rocks, I had that badge sewn to a going out jacket in the early 90s. Its part of that adolescent mantra borne of newfound teen machismo. I never grew out of it.

Sometimes (often, probably too often) I wonder about the night you died, the questions unanswered, the tragedy of it all. Its the second guessing all the possibilities of what could be that make that awful event play further on ones mind. Maybe we could have been Xbox mates? Hey? Good Idea. Id have to kick Luke out as and talks rubbish. Its not that hes a bad dude, hes just lacking in esteem, friends and deodorant. He has Zanders best intentions at heart, which is all I can ask of him. Wed play Xbox together with Zanny and Indy. Indys controller doesnt get plugged in, but she pushes all the buttons.

Today I wore your old black singlet I found in the shed. I kept it hidden from your Mum for a while as I guessed it was yours. I felt that if she saw it and assumed what I had, it might upset her. That is something I did not want to do. It was with some old oil rags. I was messing around in our top shed after mowing the lawn one day and when I went to get a rag I found a really big one. And Bonds! And size 16! Score.

Mate, were brothers that never met, never had a chance to make friends, but I am sure we would have. I do my best for your sister, and try not to fight with your mum too much. Sometimes I think she loves a good dust up. We are both trying to be the Alpha patriarch. I am looking after your family as you did when you were here mate.

I hope that by writing this I do not hurt anyone or revive memories that have been put to rest.

You are not a ghost to any of us, and never feel that you are forgotten. Its one of those unwritten understandings we have, that we never forget. I understand you, and I hope you do me. You have played a part in the shaping of our family, and I say our family. You and me. Pam, Suzy and I are raising our children to remember you.

You are, and always will be our Uncle Jimmy.


----------



## PistolPatch (12/4/07)

I'm on the phone to Screwtop and we both know InCider and I have never had a phone conversation where we have read all 2,500 words in silence.

We find InCider to be one of the most valuable guys on the forum due to his exquisite humour. His post, like so many others here, shows that there is a hell of a lot more than beer to some brewers.

Couldn't ask for a better post to bump this back on track.

Thanks from your old mates,
Michael and Pat.


----------



## bugwan (13/4/07)

Thanks InCider, that's as honest as it gets...

I'm in no position to add to this thread other than to encourage your fine skills as a passionate writer.

I'll enjoy my next Summer Ale in your name...


----------



## bonj (13/4/07)

I just don't know how to respond to that, Sean. I'm not ashamed to say that it brought tears to my eyes.


----------

