# Extract Brewing



## Cloud Surfer (23/8/20)

Seems most people probably learn the ropes with extract brewing before moving onto AG. I was wondering, once you make the jump, does anyone go back to the occasional extract brew?


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## kadmium (23/8/20)

The only thing I use extract for are my starters.

I'm not a snob by any means, but I find AG far worth the effore.


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## Cloud Surfer (23/8/20)

I only thought to ask this because I’m putting lots of research into extract recipes, while I fully know I’ll be switching over to AG eventually. I suddenly feel like I’m wasting the effort and should just jump into AG now and spend my time developing recipes there.


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## butisitart (23/8/20)

no way, ag usually involves buying gear that you don't use in extract, and there is a point in doing extract where you only do it cos you're saving up to get the plant to do AG. but it's like going from eating canned tuna to eating tuna sashimi. massive leap in fresh etc. (or instant to barista coffee). AG ingredient pricing is also a fraction of extract, often less than half price for a like brew.
i occasionally taste somebody's extract, and even good extract is a long way short of AG generally. and good extract is way better than most commercial.
also, you can experiment much more with AG than you can with the limitations of extract profiles.
but we all do it - part of the curve. and if brewing in general is not for you, then better to learn that at extract, without coughing a lot of money at something you're not going to enjoy long term.


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## ozdevil (23/8/20)

my thoughts are while i may do all grain brews i always remember starting out doing extracts..

i honest feel there is some great extract recipes a person can use by steeping a few grains with there extracts....

mate nothing stopping you in once in a blue moon going back toextract..

mate i even doing the cheat method of fwk rather then actually brewing the wort from scrath as i will have a huge week this week with 2 all grain brews as the fresh wort kit ..

i'm even thinking of doing a extract brew for the fun of it


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## butisitart (23/8/20)

recipes?? aah - 
don't worry - AG recipes tend to rely a bit on what specialty grains/hops are on sale at the brew shop, i have never made the same one twice.
generic ballpark them and enjoy the ride on slight differences after that.
there are some good recipe builders out there - beersmith is one of several - i bought that and have no need to look further. absolutely worth the effort if you go to AG. it also has a great 'beer styles' database, plus for grains, hops, yeast, recipes. i think you can get it on trial, but it's only around $30 full licence anyway. (no vested interest here).


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## kadmium (23/8/20)

Brewing extract will allow you to build on the principals of good brewing without worrying about the nuances of AG. 

There as so many things that lead to good beer independent of AG. For instance,

Fermentation temp management. 
Yeast health (starters, nutrients, oxygenation)
Sanitation
Fermenting process (gravity ferment, pressure ferment, primary and secondary etc)
Hopping during ferment

All grain adds so many variables to an already complicated process (what can be)

To get the most out of AG you need to consider water chemistry, chlorine removal, mashijg process, step mashing vs non, steeping specialities vs mashing them, recipe profile, recipe content on lautering ability, effects of adjuncts on mash, the boil process including hops, etc. 

If you want to learn the fundamentals extract brewing is fine. But when I started there were no Fresh Wort Kits (fwk) which are an awesome entry point. They are a definite step above kit and kilo brewing, while allowing you to focus on the fermentation process. 

So you could always do a few FWKs to learn fermentation management. Move onto extract and then slowly introduce steeping specialities etc. 

AG is great but it -can- be expensive to crack into. I just dropped about $1k on a keg setup and Guten 40, but having said that my cost per batch is down to $45 for 20L. Works out to $18 a slab or so. That's for NEIPAs if I went simple it would be even less.


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## Reveirs (24/8/20)

After 20+ years of extract brewing I invested in a Grainfather last year and am thoroughly enjoying the versatility but still alternate between AG brews and extract brews. I tend to do an AG once a month and then "hot-tub" a complimentary extract brew on bottling day to make the most of the residual flavour and live yeast, e.g. an AG Scotch Ale followed by a hot-tubbed Coopers ESB with various adjuncts and extra hops/spices. Apart from the cheaper cost (and far less time spent), the hot-tubbed extract brews also ferment really quickly on the live yeast and taste just as good as the more expensive AG brews.


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## elmoMakesBeer (25/8/20)

I've just started brewing, and have so far completed a Grain and Grape FWK (Yarraville Pale Ale), which tasted ridiculously good for something so easy to brew, and an extract kit to which I added some specialty malt and hops (in boil and dry hopped). The extract brew is tasting good and I enjoyed the process of adding extra bits but I won't pretend the end product is quite as good as the FWK. My third brew is another G&G FWK and is currently fermenting away nicely.
I could happily keep enjoying the FWK ales, but it feels a bit like cheating and I don't want to acquire a shedload of single-use 15L plastic cubes (with actual volume around 16.5L). So where from here?
Brew 4 may be another extract kit but my next plan is to convert an esky into a lauter tun, and use the 19L pot in my pantry as a mash tun and boiler. Or maybe the esky for both mash and lauter. Either way I figure the 19L pot is just big enough to make enough wort to hot cube into one of the empty FWK cubes. This way I can try AG brewing without much investment. If it ends up not going well I can easily go back to extract or fresh wort kits and not feel like I've lost a bucketload. Is this a terrible idea?


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## Cloud Surfer (25/8/20)

Reveirs said:


> After 20+ years of extract brewing I invested in a Grainfather last year and am thoroughly enjoying the versatility but still alternate between AG brews and extract brews. I tend to do an AG once a month and then "hot-tub" a complimentary extract brew on bottling day to make the most of the residual flavour and live yeast, e.g. an AG Scotch Ale followed by a hot-tubbed Coopers ESB with various adjuncts and extra hops/spices. Apart from the cheaper cost (and far less time spent), the hot-tubbed extract brews also ferment really quickly on the live yeast and taste just as good as the more expensive AG brews.


That's reassuring that you haven't completely given up on extract. It kind of feels like the poor man's way to brew compared to AG, but I was amazed at how good my Belgium Triple turned out for my first go at brewing using extract. So I'll be happy to keep using extract plus some extra grains and hops for a while before shifting to AG.


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## Luxo_Aussie (25/8/20)

I've done one extract / test batch since going all grain but this was only a test batch at a quarter of the regular size. I can't see a reason why I wouldn't take an extract recipe from my past and enhance it to be all grain as opposed to just recreating.


Cloud Surfer said:


> I only thought to ask this because I’m putting lots of research into extract recipes, while I fully know I’ll be switching over to AG eventually. I suddenly feel like I’m wasting the effort and should just jump into AG now and spend my time developing recipes there.


All your research won't be lost, most of the techniques and elements will still be the same. There are some other considerations for all grain which will also need investigation however such as step mashing, PH & water adjustments.

From my opinion, the sooner the better to jump into AG so you can make mistakes, learn and build understanding to have better control over future batches. I wish I'd started sooner.


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## MHB (25/8/20)

BIAB makes going AG so easy and inexpensive.
All you need is a kettle big enough for your batch size and a bag. If you are serious about making good Extract you need the same sized kettle so the only extra is the bag - like $20 maybe.

I'm old enough to remember when all computer monitors were monochrome, then came 8 colours, then 64...
Going back from AG to extract is like going back to 8 from 64, there are just so many more choices with AG, extract feels very limiting after a while.
With a single base malt AG you have the option of making lots of different worts, ranging from dry high alcohol to sweet and low alcohol, you can play around with the soluble protein, the Glucan content, you can affect the colour of the wort play around with how pH and mineral salts affect the beer....
All that before you start looking at what you can do with specialty malts.
Gives you a very big playground!
Mark


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## Cloud Surfer (25/8/20)

MHB said:


> With a single base malt AG you have the option of making lots of different worts, ranging from dry high alcohol to sweet and low alcohol, you can play around with the soluble protein, the Glucan content, you can affect the colour of the wort play around with how pH and mineral salts affect the beer....
> All that before you start looking at what you can do with specialty malts.
> Gives you a very big playground!
> Mark


This is what I’m learning compared to extract. It’s a much bigger playground.


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## BrewLizard (25/8/20)

I've found decent extract still requires some steeping of specialty malts, if not partial mashing. It still (usually) requires a 60-min boil.

So the only time-saving is the mashing. Call it 1.5 hours or 1/3rd of the brew day saved, but I still have to wash up all the same stuff. Might as well just do AG and have more fun.


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## butisitart (25/8/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> That's reassuring that you haven't completely given up on extract. It kind of feels like the poor man's way to brew compared to AG, but I was amazed at how good my Belgium Triple turned out for my first go at brewing using extract. So I'll be happy to keep using extract plus some extra grains and hops for a while before shifting to AG.


poor man brewing is slightly subjective......
yes, it's a big investment to throw up to go to AG, but your cost per brew goes down, for starters. my across the board average carton (9L) on AG is currently $6.59 on 174 brews. (ingredients only). so maybe $17 for 23L. the quality is another level.
i went biab as a step-up, but personal experiences were things like splitting biab bags, low mash efficiencies, a lot of mess, and more labour intensive that AG. that's just my experience, not knocking it. a lot of people do it for years and love it. and gear is not prohibitively priced. but i didn't last long on biab.
put it this way - if somebody stole my AG gear, or it just completely died on me, would i go back to biab or a few kits to tide me over?? 
i wouldn't even brew until i got another AG setup.. and no set up is perfect. i'm on grainfather - great for an apartment, love the reverse chill etc, but no pumps and lines from mash to boil to fermenter, and you can't easily tinker with it or tweak it. so it's not for everybody. - so we can always whinge about some aspect. 
there. that should confuse you even further


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## Cloud Surfer (25/8/20)

butisitart said:


> poor man brewing is slightly subjective......
> yes, it's a big investment to throw up to go to AG, but your cost per brew goes down, for starters. my across the board average carton (9L) on AG is currently $6.59 on 174 brews. (ingredients only). so maybe $17 for 23L. the quality is another level.
> i went biab as a step-up, but personal experiences were things like splitting biab bags, low mash efficiencies, a lot of mess, and more labour intensive that AG. that's just my experience, not knocking it. a lot of people do it for years and love it. and gear is not prohibitively priced. but i didn't last long on biab.
> put it this way - if somebody stole my AG gear, or it just completely died on me, would i go back to biab or a few kits to tide me over??
> ...


I just bought the Grainfather fermentor and chiller today. I’ll spend some time and brews sorting that out, then I’ll add the Grainfather AG system as well.

What do you mean by no pumps and lines from mash to boil to fermentor? I’ve seen the Grainfather pump the cooled wort into the fermentor.


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## kadmium (25/8/20)

He means not a 3 vessel system. He's doing single vessel brewing, so no pumping and transferring between steps. 

Congrats on the sweet purchase. Please update us with pics and how it all goes!!


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## Cloud Surfer (25/8/20)

kadmium said:


> He means not a 3 vessel system. He's doing single vessel brewing, so no pumping and transferring between steps.
> 
> Congrats on the sweet purchase. Please update us with pics and how it all goes!!


Thanks. I kind of got that, but it seemed he was describing it as a negative, where as I see it as a positive aspect of the Grainfather. Maybe it was lost in translation.

Do people post setup pics around here?


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## kadmium (25/8/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Thanks. I kind of got that, but it seemed he was describing it as a negative, where as I see it as a positive aspect of the Grainfather. Maybe it was lost in translation.
> 
> Do people post setup pics around here?


Why not? I like photos. Beer, systems, things we made.


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## butisitart (25/8/20)

as per kadmium. i only have the AG system. i'm so f*****g jealous haha. i wish i could say something nice, but i'm struggling.
no, not a negative - gf AG on its own is a fine system, but there is a bit of manual transfer etc that you don't get in a 3 vessel system. but what you've got negates that. doesn't bother me, but it could annoy a 3 vessel purist.
so what you've got is essentially a 3 vessel system nicely compacted into 2 vessels. 
can't comment on the fermenter cos i haven't used it, but what i can tell you is that the mash/boiler will blow your head off when you start pulling beers out of it. it's another world.


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## butisitart (25/8/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Thanks. I kind of got that, but it seemed he was describing it as a negative, where as I see it as a positive aspect of the Grainfather. Maybe it was lost in translation.
> 
> Do people post setup pics around here?


there're reams of 'show us your gear' photos on one of the forums


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## Cloud Surfer (25/8/20)

kadmium said:


> Why not? I like photos. Beer, systems, things we made.


Sweet, I’ll get some pics when I’ve got it together.


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## Cloud Surfer (25/8/20)

butisitart said:


> as per kadmium. i only have the AG system. i'm so f*****g jealous haha. i wish i could say something nice, but i'm struggling.
> no, not a negative - gf AG on its own is a fine system, but there is a bit of manual transfer etc that you don't get in a 3 vessel system. but what you've got negates that. doesn't bother me, but it could annoy a 3 vessel purist.


The best response I got from someone when I asked what’s the advantage of the 3 vessel system, is it’s fantastic for people who love cleaning stuff.


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## butisitart (25/8/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Thanks. I kind of got that, but it seemed he was describing it as a negative, where as I see it as a positive aspect of the Grainfather. Maybe it was lost in translation.
> 
> Do people post setup pics around here?


on a tangent, but have you had a look at beersmith?? i probably use 20% of its functions, but on AG, invaluable for things like hop quantities for particular styles, grain colours to get the beer colour where you want it, library of all your brews, mash temperatures, on ad on. i rarely look at recipes anymore. pick a style off beersmith, and start building. maybe a recipe or two to point you in the direction, but a lot of freewheeling


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## butisitart (25/8/20)

when you get your gf, you can pm me if you like, i'll give you some tips on how to use it (eg splitting for 46L brews). i've got a Mark 1, from the first shipment into aus, so mine's a bit old school, but i've done - well - brew #174 today. there was a lot of on the fly learn chat going around in the early days which you don't see so much of now. so always good for a pm if you need.


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## Luxo_Aussie (26/8/20)

butisitart said:


> when you get your gf, you can pm me if you like, i'll give you some tips on how to use it


Girlfriends generally shouldn't be treated as objects...


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## butisitart (26/8/20)

Luxo_Aussie said:


> Girlfriends generally shouldn't be treated as objects...


i were going to only give respectful tips on how to use it. usual stuff, avoid the reverse chill effect, don't fill it up with crappy grain.


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## Cloud Surfer (26/8/20)

Thanks butisitart, I’ll pick your brains when I get it. Though that investment will be a few months away at least. Brew #174 hey, that’s great. Brew #4 for me will go into the Grainfather fermentor in a few days.

I was tossing up between apps, and ended up getting Brewfather.


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## butisitart (26/8/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Thanks butisitart, I’ll pick your brains when I get it. Though that investment will be a few months away at least. Brew #174 hey, that’s great. Brew #4 for me will go into the Grainfather fermentor in a few days.
> 
> I was tossing up between apps, and ended up getting Brewfather.


174 brews in the gf. pre gf is pre-history haha. actually, i got beersmith when i got gf, and didn't keep good notes before that


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## ozdevil (26/8/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> Thanks butisitart, I’ll pick your brains when I get it. Though that investment will be a few months away at least. Brew #174 hey, that’s great. Brew #4 for me will go into the Grainfather fermentor in a few days.
> 
> I was tossing up between apps, and ended up getting Brewfather.




Brewfather and beersmith are virtually the same 

Beersmith is done using gui much like the windows explorer and you have to pay again for the updated versions as well you have to pay again if you want it on a tablet or whatever

Brewfather is much better in my opinion its 1 price across all forms of systems wether your using mobile tablet pc ..


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## butisitart (26/8/20)

ozdevil said:


> Brewfather and beersmith are virtually the same
> 
> Beersmith is done using gui much like the windows explorer and you have to pay again for the updated versions as well you have to pay again if you want it on a tablet or whatever
> 
> Brewfather is much better in my opinion its 1 price across all forms of systems wether your using mobile tablet pc ..


i knew there were others around (mentioned in earlier post), but i could only extol the virtues of the one i knew, as opposed to some pretty ordinary freeware that was around 5 years ago. i use it on a desktop and a laptop, so wasn't aware of the extra licencing, nor have i thought about upgrading versions. not questioning your research, but if i remember (without going and looking it up), i thought beersmith was licenced to 2 terminals, regardless of terminal type. the small part of the program that i use doesn't rate an issue for me at this point to upgrade. (personal usage requirements here)
although, (maybe the same with brewfather), you do get a lot of add-ons for updated supplier product info (eg bestmalz, wyeast, viking catalogues). and the new hops ratings each year''s crop. which is very handy.
anyway, not my homework to do LOL


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## ozdevil (26/8/20)

butisitart said:


> i knew there were others around (mentioned in earlier post), but i could only extol the virtues of the one i knew, as opposed to some pretty ordinary freeware that was around 5 years ago. i use it on a desktop and a laptop, so wasn't aware of the extra licencing, nor have i thought about upgrading versions. not questioning your research, but if i remember (without going and looking it up), i thought beersmith was licenced to 2 terminals, regardless of terminal type. the small part of the program that i use doesn't rate an issue for me at this point to upgrade. (personal usage requirements here)
> although, (maybe the same with brewfather), you do get a lot of add-ons for updated supplier product info (eg bestmalz, wyeast, viking catalogues). which is very handy.
> anyway, not my homework to do LOL



not sure mate wether it covers 2 terminals .

I have never really like beer smith even though i like it now but i prefer brewfather

i can look and amend on the pc and do the same on mobile and put it on a tablet or lap top

both programs are good


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## butisitart (26/8/20)

ozdevil said:


> not sure mate wether it covers 2 terminals .
> 
> I have never really like beer smith even though i like it now but i prefer brewfather
> 
> ...


all good, gives different options for people to go off and research before buying. both products will steer them in a good direction .
holden vs ford haha
groan, just got the bad dad joke father's day pun. accidental, i swear. 'steer them in a ..........holden... not my finest moment, but it WAS accidental


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## Heath72 (27/8/20)

I started out with FWK and 1 fermenter, after 5 brews I now have Robobrew and 3 fermenters  and love the all grain process of making beer.
Fresh Wort kits are good way to get into brewing without having to buy lots of equipment.


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## Heath72 (27/8/20)

elmoMakesBeer said:


> I could happily keep enjoying the FWK ales, but it feels a bit like cheating and I don't want to acquire a shedload of single-use 15L plastic cubes (with actual volume around 16.5L). So where from here?


All Inn Brewing Co do FWK in a 15l goon. easy to dispose of once used.


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## elmoMakesBeer (27/8/20)

Heath72 said:


> All Inn Brewing Co do FWK in a 15l goon. easy to dispose of once used.


Thanks for the suggestion - their range of ktis looks pretty good. They're in Queensland, which is a bit far for me, but I see they have a distributor in West Melbourne. That's still further from home than I can legally travel at the moment but something I'll definitely keep in mind for the future, especially if my all grain attempt ends up a mess.


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## Heath72 (27/8/20)

elmoMakesBeer said:


> Thanks for the suggestion - their range of ktis looks pretty good. They're in Queensland, which is a bit far for me, but I see they have a distributor in West Melbourne. That's still further from home than I can legally travel at the moment but something I'll definitely keep in mind for the future, especially if my all grain attempt ends up a mess.


Their range is really good. Shouldn't be an issue getting them shipped down to you. I use to get the GnG ones shipped up here to Brissy.


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