# Does Biab Make Extract Redundant?



## loikar (23/12/11)

Knowing full well that this thread will probably turn into a derailed barrage of contradictory opinions and irrelevant information....

I read in another thread that moving from K&K to all Extract or K&Bits is now redundant due to the ease of BIAB (cant remember the exact term used).
Having moved from extracts to a 3v System myself, i've never even witnessed a BIAB Brewday, im curios as to how true this is.

How much time does it take to make a 20L BIAB compared to an all extract with some steeping?
What are the cost differences between setting up the two when first starting?
How much difference is there between the resulting beer?

I know time may be a factor, but realistically, what's the difference?

Cheers,

Andy


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## MarkBastard (23/12/11)

Guessing they mean a Maxi-BIAB or whatever.

My brewing journey went something like:

All extract + steep >>> partial mash + extract >>> full volume BIAB in an urn

In my experience all extract + steep is easier than partial mash. Shorter brewday and way less can go wrong. Full volume BIAB in an urn I found the easiest, but only because my urn has a tap and an inbuilt element. Surely a maxi-biab in the same pot you'd do an extract or partial in is 'harder' than extract/partial.

But the difference between all these brews is probably overstated. BIAB All grain isn't that hard, not to the extent that you need to use other methods as 'training wheels'.


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## Baulko Brewer (23/12/11)

+1 for MB
My process was exactly the same. I use a 30l birko.

From the time I turn on the urn to the time I have cleaned up the gear is just a little short of 4 hours. Time is spent waiting for the Urn to reach mash temps and also raising temp from mash to boil.

Only other cost from doing partials to BIAB was the voile and bought a cheap urn for $60


Have a great Christmas everybody :icon_cheers:


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## mxd (23/12/11)

for me, K+K -> BIAB -> 4V (HERMS)

when I went BIAB


50 ltr urn (no element) $50
1 2200 W element $50
1x 2400 w element $120
1 x pillow case $35

Total $255


It would take me about 4.5 hrs to do a 22 ltr batch.


cheers
Matt


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## Pistol (23/12/11)

Starting BIAB after the new year, been doing extract for the last few months, I don't think BIAB will take me any longer than extract.


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## Xarb (23/12/11)

I went straight from kits to pure extract to BIAB. 

I found it a good progression. First get the sanitation and fermenting right. Then do a boil and add hops. Then add grains. 

Cost breakdown for BIAB:
19L Big W pot: $19
Voile for bag: $1.50

Cost $20.50. 

Of course this increases if you don't have a thermometer or scales.

BIAB definitely takes longer than extract, but if you are doing a partial it is probably similar.


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## tavas (23/12/11)

I looked at it like this: if I'm steeping grains, I may as well be mashing. If I'm boiling hops in a small pot I may as well do a full boil.

But to answer the question, no it does not make extract redundant. If you haven't got the cold side of brewing correct (fermentation, sanitation etc) then jumping to BIAB (or any AG method) will not improve your beers.

Extract is a way of using a consistent base malt. So it will give new brewers an idea of how hop flavour can contribute for instance, or how spec grains interact.

BIAB or any AG allows the brewer full control over their ingredients (freshness, type, mash schedule) but the trade off for flexibility is many more things to go wrong.

BIAB is pretty easy to do, takes little gear (see Nick's thread) and still allows a brewer access to the flexibility of AG. But extract still allows some control over ingredient selection.

Do the beers taste better? Purely subjective. What I think my best BIAB beer tastes like may not meet your palate and vice versa. However I will add: a mate of mine brews extract and has done over 150 brews. I've only done 20 BIAB brews but he did comment that AG makes a big difference to taste, so it is possible that BIAB MAY taste better, but if you don't control the cold side, then no method will improve your beer.


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## bignath (23/12/11)

Personally i dont think any process makes any other process redundant. Sure there are better ways to make a higher quality product but that doesnt mean that there isnt a place for the others, regardless of diminished quality and costs taken into account.

Im an all grain brewer, have been for several years now. My dad likes my beer. My dad appreciates im all hardcore with this hobby and all facets of it intrigue me. 
He is not like that. Hes been brewing for a decade or so (as i have) but doesnt share the same enthusiasm or passion for learning about and making beer. Hes a K&K brewer. He has more spare time than me to brew but is ultimately happy with his return vs efforts of his beer making.

Do i prefer my beers? Yeah i do, and by a long shot too. I like my beers with a decent whack of flavour usually (occasionally brew something bland for the mates etc...) and the ag process allows me to fine tune my recipes for how i like them. He doesnt want to spend the same amount of time brewing as i do. No problem with that at all. 

Whilst i think that a good all gain beer will tear an excellent extract beer to shreads, i recognise that not everyone has the same amount of emotional, mental, and financial investment that we as brewers choose to throw at our beer.


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## goomboogo (23/12/11)

No.


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## Nick JD (23/12/11)

I don't reckon anything makes anything else redundant. 

Did BIAB make 3V redundant? Nup. 

Every method has its advantages. Extract is easy in that you don't have to mess with grain. Sure, you still have to boil for bitterness ... but you don't have hardly the same cleanup or have to mill kgs.

The easiest method of making beer is driving to Dan Murphys, but that's missing the point. To some people (me included) this is more than _a way to get pissed cheap_; it's a hobby.


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## Philthy79 (23/12/11)

I dont think it makes it redundant either... I knocked up a quick extract 3 weeks ago (Neils Centanarillo)for an extra something on tap; an hour max to knock together.


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## Mikedub (23/12/11)

Baulko Brewer said:


> From the time I turn on the urn to the time I have cleaned up the gear is just a little short of 4 hours.



Thats pretty good, its about 4 hrs for me (BIAB 40l urn) from start of mash, 
roughly 1.5 hrs mash + mash out
15-20min raise to boil
+ boil 1.5 hrs 
20 min whirlpool + cube
+ 40 min cleaning 

next day another 30 min transferring, pitching, cleaning 

not mashing and having less water to heat I reckon extract + 20min steep on the side during the boil would take about an 1.5 hrs out of that, maybe more with a better quality can opener, 
having said that, I love AG, the mash is the building block for your beer, doughing in 5kg of grain still gives me a woody


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## RdeVjun (23/12/11)

No. They're just different means to manufacture wort.
Presuming by 20L BIAB you mean 20L Stovetop/ Maxi-BIAB, and by extract you mean plain, non-bittered malt extract with a full hops boil, answers to those questions:
1. A 20L BIAB takes about the same as a 20L 3V, an extract is about half the time, less if you're using pre- bittered extract.
2. Cost for someone already brewing kits: Stovetop BIAB: 19L pot, sparge bucket, and voile can be done for around $30, Extract: just the pot, the 19L one would be fine.
3. Quality: Perhaps consider this- Stovetop BIAB earned six medals out of the maximum six entries permitted in BABB Annual 2011 with one 1st and two 3rd places. I think that's a fairly unambiguous result, while QABC places and AABC qualifiers would also reinforce that. As far as extract beers go, they're 'under- represented' in competitions AFAIK, but that does not necessarily mean their quality is any lower.
WRT 20L Stovetop BIAB, IMO it is really all about minimising the risk for novice brewers wanting to try AG brewing- if you're not willing to invest in gear which you don't know how to use or unsure if you're prepared to invest the time and effort to use it, perhaps even unsure if you'll like the end result, then Stovetop BIAB allows the novice brewer to try an AG method with minimal risk to find these things out. If the answer is no, its not your thing, then it didn't cost you much to find that out, but the same experience with 3V will be risking much, much more. If the answer is yes, then you can continue to develop AG skills and Stovetop techniques, or even use it as a stepping stone to another mashing method. It is not necessarily a substitute for extract brewing at all, I think that suggestion is mis- guided.


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## Diesel80 (23/12/11)

I dove in also,

3 kit brews over 2 weekends and then straight out for the 80L pot and 2400W OTS element.

test boil showed element alone take too long to boil for 35L in pot i had, so added a 3 ring and gas bottle. Goes ok now.

pretty $$ to get up and running but should be good for Doubles, especially if spend a few $ more for a new reg.

So far enjoying it. From start to N/C cube have achieved 3h:15m for a brew. If I include cleanup etc then it is about 4hr:00 for start to finish.

Not sure i have the heating horses for a full volume double yet but would be interesting to see how long that would take.

Also, bar 1 of my 3 kit brews, i chucked the lot. BIAB, drank the lot 

Cheers,
D80


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## yasmani (23/12/11)

excuse me but what this biab that everybody is having discussions with. is this like syrips or like barley grains for making beers


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## keifer33 (23/12/11)

Yasmani said:


> excuse me but what this biab that everybody is having discussions with. is this like syrips or like barley grains for making beers




It stands for Brew In A Bag. Its one of the many methods of brewing with All Grain. Rather than required 2 or more vessels it allows someone to only use 1 vessel and a bag.

EDIT - Checkout this thread http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=11694


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## yasmani (23/12/11)

do i need to do this operation for better brewings ? i would have the fears about poisons from the chemical fabric . so what is bad about my coolbox and restarant saucepot and some kitchen buckets to pour for the boilings? somebody told me this is the best program to make the beers.


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## Spork (23/12/11)

I know I shouldn't feed the troll... but:
The bag can be made from curtain material - which may or may not be "food grade " plastic. Mine is from CB. It is food grade nylon.
The coolbox, restarant saucepot and kitchen buckets are fine too. 
More than 1 way to skin a cat.


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## ekul (23/12/11)

The one that confuses me is the people doing partial mashes (not grain steeping). If they have to spend 4 hours doing a mash and boil and clean, why bother with adding the extract, why not just use more base malt? Its cheaper and tastes better.

I fully get that some people don't have time to do a full mash. PLus if they're happy with their beer why not? For me it would be the best thing in the world if i could make a kit taste great. I'd happily go back to kits if i could make a similar product i'm currently making at a similar price.

Extract beers for me were a little expensive. $30-40 per brew. If i was currently making extract beers but didn't have the time for AG, i'd just go down the fresh wort kit route. Less time and a great product. Edited to add~ Plus with the fresh wort kits you still get to taste a heap of different malts. I got really bored with the same malt taste in my brews.


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## Nick JD (23/12/11)

If kit beer tasted like real beer we'd all do it.


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## black_labb (23/12/11)

I think the main step between biab and partials is cooling the wort. It's not too hard to cool 5ish L in a sink with a bit of time, but you need some sort of cooling method for BIAB. 

Doing a full mash also requires some understanding to the process. I've started working part time at a homebrew shop somewhat recently and I have to say that it takes some people a long time to figure out that the sugars fermenting in their beer comes from the grain that they've been mashing. The amount of people that look at you funny when you say that the fermentables come from the grain is kind of scary. I guess there are alot of people just going through the motions without much of a clue as to what is going on.

Edit: it's not really that many people, but it's often people who act like they know what they're talking about.


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## MHB (23/12/11)

As a retailer who specialises in all grain brewing we sheppard a lot of people through the transition from kit to grain.
The two biggest changes in the last 10 years have been BIAB and No Chill the two of them together has made going AG inexpensive and easy. We used to encourage people to go extract first then move on to AG, these days there is no impediment to jumping right in.
So Im going to say -yes Extract is largely redundant.
I find the people who get the best results start with a big enough pot, trying to force a brew into a 19L cheep BigW makes the change harder, go the classic full volume no sparge route, you will consistently make good beer from the get go.
To anyone thinking of making the switch stop thinking about it and do it.
MHB


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## Mattress (23/12/11)

Nick JD said:


> To some people (me included) this is more than _a way to get pissed cheap_; it's a hobby.




I totally agree. Getting pissed cheap is just a bonus!


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## Maheel (23/12/11)

how much better does extract taste than Kit and kilo (or bits)
my kits were all pretty dismal...

i have never tasted a full boil extract ?

i know my BIAB tastes pretty awesome both mini and full volume 
so unless extract tastes really good, the jump to BIAB (and more 3v etc) seems really worth it


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## Brown_hound (23/12/11)

Nick JD said:


> I find retailers trying to push the shit they sell, over helping new brewers is fucked.
> 
> There are plenty of reasons a new brewer should not turn up at your store and open their wallet. The first: bad advice.




+1

I'm based on Sydney's Northern Beaches.

Within a reasonable distance of me are two home brewing shops... North Sydney and Asquith... Needless to say, given the obvious duopoly, there's some serious bloody price gouging going on. I'm no pirahna pockets, but it's unbelievable.

One word of advice...

Check out our sponsors. Not cheap necessarily, but out for the greater good.

The obvious inconvenience is waiting for the goods to arrive... If that's not a worry, then save a bundle by going with an online purchase.

Hound.


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## Fish13 (23/12/11)

Why was nicks post removed??

i thought it was a fair point.

Anyway it does actually help if the local HBS new about BIAB and AG...


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## Nick JD (23/12/11)

fish13 said:


> Why was nicks post removed??
> 
> i thought it was a fair point.



I removed it. Tis the season to be jolly.


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## argon (23/12/11)

Yasmani said:


> do i need to do this operation for better brewings ? i would have the fears about poisons from the chemical fabric . so what is bad about my coolbox and restarant saucepot and some kitchen buckets to pour for the boilings? somebody told me this is the best program to make the beers.


Yasmani is that you? You know that i know who you are


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## yasmani (23/12/11)

peter is this argon your secret email name? hello and merry happy christmas and thanks you for the helping for my coolbox pipe. come to my home in campsie next week to try a taste of my brewings from the syrips. in feburary i will have the barley grains brewing gased with bubles to try also


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## keifer33 (23/12/11)

Yasmani said:


> peter is this argon your secret email name? hello and merry happy christmas and thanks you for the helping for my coolbox pipe. come to my home in campsie next week to try a taste of my brewings from the syrips. in feburary i will have the barley grains brewing gased with bubles to try also



Haha dont know what it is about this post but it hit my laugh button.


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## Fish13 (23/12/11)

Nick JD said:


> I removed it. Tis the season to be jolly.



too easy

have a m

erry xmas nad a safe wen yare! hic.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/12/11)

Answer to OP - yes.

I've been brewing for 13 years, AG for 2 years - BIAB at the start, though I have a bizarre version of the stovetop method in a sort of 3.5V manner. Let's save the details for another time.

Extract does give you better beer than kit, because you control variables - hopping, but more importantly the concept of using yeast other than the packet under the lid. 

But Partial Mash is the biggest waste of time known to humanity. If you are going to go through that effort, why not take maximum control and really nail it.

My massive caveat in this - AHB is a massive resource of information - it wasn't around all those years ago. It makes the learning process more accessible, and the ability to bridge between K&K and AG a great deal easier to navigate.

Also, more AG-centric HBS add to the accessibility of AG and BIAB - both in terms of grain access, and good hops. We've all been there, done that with stale 12g packets that cost $5.

If I'd known about BIAB back then and had access to the necessary ingredients, I'd have switched pretty well immediately after putting down the first few kits.

So he answer is - yes, extract, as a bridging step is probably redundant, but only because information and ingredients available now, that weren't as readily accessible a few years ago.

Goomba


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## kelbygreen (23/12/11)

Well I can say I done extract for about a year as I hated all my kit beers. I liked extract a little better but not much. I done 1 partial and at the end thought "why the **** did I just mash 1.5kg of grain and then add extract" it took me longer as I had to add the extract at the end of the boil!!. Taste wise?? it was a little better but I wouldnt say a massive improvement considering it took the same amount of time no matter if I done that or AG. 

My first AG was BIAB and I honestly didnt like it (maybe it was coming out 45mins into the mash to see my bag and some grain on the floor as I found out then dogs like grain and wort) and there was a few other problems I got after that with BIAB that I didnt like. I moved to 2v (used HLT and kettle as one) and it was a little better for me. I moved to 3v and double batches with gravity and almost got put on disability pension from lifting 60kg from the floor up to above chest height lol. Then I got a pump and made a brew stand and I dont think I will look back now (well at least not the lifting)


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## mrTbeer (24/12/11)

Yes I think extract is redundant.

I'm an example of someone who with the benefit of ahb has moved from k&k to biab in 6 months or 9 brews. I wouldn't say my kits were shit but I would say that biab is better. Yes it takes longer but involves roughly the same amount of cleaning.

I bought the bigw pot for extracts but was already thinking about biab when I bought it. Next step will be an urn but at nearly $300 that can wait.

My only gripe is that I can't find a LHBS that stocks grain or hops which means I have to order online which means I have to brew 3 days after I realize I have the time and inclination to do so. With kits I can put the stove on and have purchased the ingredients before it's boiled. If I could buy grain and hops at the supermarket with my weet-bix then extract would truly be redundant. Likewise if Aldi sold a package that included a 2000w element and a 40l pot there would be no need for kits at all.


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## stux (24/12/11)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=854820

"Skip the extract stage. 

Extract was a way to throw dollars at a brew to get around the equipment requirements of all-grain, and is essentially obsoleted by BIAB.

The only difference between a BIAB setup and an extract setup is the $8 of voile you need for the 'bag', which doesn't even have to be a bag."


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## freezkat (24/12/11)

The Cooper "no boil" kits are very fast and easy to make. Add 1-2Kg of Dex, sucrose or DME or another can of LME. Soak the cans in the wort too. The quicker you get all the sugars to dissolve the better. This retains the aroma hops in the extract. You only need to heat up 5-6L to do that. Fill your sanitized primary fermenter halfway with cold water. Pour the wort gently into the cold water. Top up with ice or more cold water to 23-25L at 18C. Sprinkle the yeast on top or take some wort out and put it in a jar. Close it and shake the piss out of it. pour it on top of the wort and rinse the jar with a little water and empty into the wort till clear. Lock up and wait.

Not needing to buy any special equipment, yeast, hops makes this a very cheap option. Not as good as AG but you can have 23-25L of beer for $20-$32... 40 - 64 per beer not including bottling or kegging costs.

If you only went with Rahr 2-Row Pale Malt 1.34/Pound in the states

10 pounds minimum = $10.34 + 2 oz of some kind of hop pellets $3-$5, yeast $1 - $6

But you are looking at a few hours of work and some added equipment. "Big pot" being number one. Minimum $30 for an enamelware canning pot. $10-$20 some kind of cake rack in the bottom to keep the grain off the hot bottom. and your bag. Not to mention cooling time, logistics and costs.

Those are the prices here in the States


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/12/11)

My (about to be brewed today) AG batch.

Cost: $20 grain, $2 hops (it's a Bitter, not an APA) and $4 for yeast.

For 25L.

That works out about $1 a litre, or .65 per 640ml bottle/76c for 750mil bottle.

2 pots cost me in total $30, and the voile - about $2 on special.

Don't need cake rack, urn or anything else. The rest, the kitchen already contains.

Any who says that the equipment makes it unreachable is speaking in ignorance. We're a single income family with 3 kids and we've shelled out the meagre sum without breaking the bank.

Sure, I've since invested in 2 buckets from Bunnings to make a lauter tun, and I have a small esky for mashing, but the impetus of this topic is "what is needed to start AG and is it more than extract?".

My answer, some voile, a 2nd pot if you are so inclined.

Cost for partial batches are considerably higher - not in the least because 5kg of grain gets me $1 per kg knocked off the price.

Goomba


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## kelbygreen (24/12/11)

It used to cost me about $40 for a 23lt brew using extract. It now costs me about $42+ for 42lts depending what you brew of coarse.


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## Nevalicious (24/12/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> MHB said it without pretending to be nice. Rja al also said it and I'm saying it...
> 
> if waht youare thinking is - I'll move from kits to steeped grains and or a "minimash " and ectract - to BIAB - then yea, absolutely, nomquestions asked.... the BIAB options are going to make better beerb for you.
> yStop t tsuiilo twats
> hard and fastnfacts - steepingn or minimashing grain, takes just as long as BIAB. q?? why are you doing that when you could be doing ag beer????? same time , same effort.....o bBy justmincoude thte bag an kalll rick on niceky



So....

You agree then??

Funny stuff!

OT, of the few Extract beers I did, they were by far the most expensive beers I have made. LDME isn't cheap, bulk bought BB Ale or even imported Weyerman grain, is!

As for the cost of equipment.... It's a hobby, it makes beer. Win win IMO. When buying new gear or ingredients, I always use the analogy of:

Think how much it costs to own and run a boat...

Then sit back and RDWHAHB

:icon_cheers: 

Nev


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## Arghonaut (24/12/11)

I brewed AG biab on my stove in two bigw 19l pots for a year, now I am brewing extract with a 30 min steep for spec grains. The reason is purely time. Biab took over 6 hours because I can't afford a big gas burner, bringing to strike temp and boil 30 liters of water takes over an hour. I can do a 6 liter boil with extract, and depending on the beer a 60, 30 or 10 minute boil. Takes 1 to 2 hours all up.

Cost or difficulty is no barrier, I did one kit then went straight do biab no chill, cost $50. Once I have more time and can invest in a 50l pot and burner I'll go back to AG.


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## Brewer_010 (24/12/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> But Partial Mash is the biggest waste of time known to humanity. If you are going to go through that effort, why not take maximum control and really nail it.
> 
> My massive caveat in this - AHB is a massive resource of information - it wasn't around all those years ago. It makes the learning process more accessible, and the ability to bridge between K&K and AG a great deal easier to navigate.
> 
> ...



I'd disagree with partials being a waste of time, I did partials for a couple of years and made some really good beers using up to ~50% grain. I did this for space reasons and time. I could do a small mash in a small pot with a relatively small boil with equipment that I had in the kitchen. Now I'm doing all grain beers and they're better, but partials filled a gap that suited at the time.

Partials are better than extract beers but I got a lot of experience out of my ingredients during this time before tripling the amount of grain in my brews.

So this is a long way of saying that I don't think BIAB is the end of extract beers. There is still a fair bit more effort in mashing that some people might not want to go down that path.

cheers


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## stux (24/12/11)

The real point was actually made that on the well worn path

K&K -> K&B -> extract -> AG

The extract step is obsoleted by BIAB and is an expensive way to make beer


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## Thirsty Boy (24/12/11)

Nevalicious said:


> So....
> 
> You agree then??
> 
> ...



hmm - that doesn't bear a hell of a lot of resemblance to what I typed. Some, but not a lot. Dont know quite what happened there, I wasn't pissed or anything which would be the normal excuse for that sort of gobbledegook - just some glitch in the lectronics. Removed due to making no sense at all - but yes, I was agreeing.

I certainly agree with MHB about it being an easier and more reliable way to get good results if you just man up and buy a big pot/urn and go with "standard" BIAB - but having said that, when you look at what people like Nick and Raja are able to do, making full size batches on their stovetops with small pots... it really does take out almost all the reasons for partial mash. BIAB is easier and cheaper than partial mash extract brewing, the beer is better, and if you need to you can make fine AG beer in small pots on your stove - so cost of equipment and space aren't reasons anymore.

No critisism of people who have done it in the past, it made sense in the past - but _now_, now I really cant see any circumstance in which I'd suggest that someone should go the extract/partial mash route.


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## seamad (24/12/11)

I reckon extract is pretty obsolete. Started knk then knb then 12 ish L batches with the bigw pot. After half dozen brews went to urn and kegs. Would advise noobs to do a few 19 L pot brews first up just to make sure it is what they really want to do. Really no cost involved. 
Probably can split brewers into two rough camps.
Those that want cheap easy to make stuff, and they wont want to pay the estra above knk
Those that have a passion for brewing, and they arent going to pot up with the limitations of extract.
Just my thoughts
Cheers


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## ekul (24/12/11)

seamad said:


> I reckon extract is pretty obsolete. Started knk then knb then 12 ish L batches with the bigw pot. After half dozen brews went to urn and kegs. Would advise noobs to do a few 19 L pot brews first up just to make sure it is what they really want to do. Really no cost involved.
> Probably can split brewers into two rough camps.
> *Those that want cheap easy to make stuff, and they wont want to pay the estra above knk
> *Those that have a passion for brewing, and they arent going to pot up with the limitations of extract.
> ...



I want cheap, easy to make stuff... but i want it to taste good too. Thats why i BIAB!


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## the_new_darren (24/12/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> hmm - that doesn't bear a hell of a lot of resemblance to what I typed. Some, but not a lot. Dont know quite what happened there, I wasn't pissed or anything which would be the normal excuse for that sort of gobbledegook - just some glitch in the lectronics. Removed due to making no sense at all - but yes, I was agreeing.
> 
> No critisism of people who have done it in the past, it made sense in the past - but _now_, now I really cant see any circumstance in which I'd suggest that someone should go the extract/partial mash route.



I was wondering if thirsty boy was VERY THIRSTY 8)


I can see why someone would do a partial mash. The reason is because when they take the first sip of that partial mash, they will be converted to add more of that delicious grain/malty flavour.

tnd


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## brewguts (24/12/11)

No it's not obsolete, based on everything that we do; confidence and competence. U have got the confidence to start something, but quite possibly not the competence to achieve it, this desire drives us to go forward/backwards, but the bottom line is, there is a drive.
Add into that the learning curve: yeast, temp control, the basic concept of how the brewing works, it's a big ask to expect people to take all this on board whilst getting on with their daily grind.
We all learn in our own way, so the various ways to achieve the end product are still viable, though the transition period maybe shorter.

I believe what BIAB achieves is a shorter transition to AG brewing, because it removes a step/skill, lautering, thus enables a fast track. This in addition to a smaller capital outlay (use of existing kitchen/domestic equipment) makes it a more attractive option.

But this is but my 2 cents worth.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/12/11)

Example of how a DIY luddite can make all grain beer (I'm the DIY luddite).

Stove top method with Lauter stage

Between this and Nick_JD's $20 stovetop lager method, you should be able to figure it out.

Equipment cost - negligible.

Cost of brew - considerably less than a partial.

What's not to like.

Goomba


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