# Hop shots



## Trevandjo (23/2/14)

I've just been told by my LHBS that he has just returned from the states and now has "hop shots" which (quote) 'This is a syringe of hop oils that can be used for bittering. I haven't tried them yet myself but they are now starting to be used in homebrewing just like the pros are doing.'

Anyone have experience with them?


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## bradsbrew (23/2/14)

Been available for a few years now.

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/default.asp?CID=13


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## micblair (23/2/14)

bradsbrew said:


> Been available for a few years now.
> 
> http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/default.asp?CID=13


These aren't what he's referring to. Hop oils are the ethanol extracts, whereas hop shots are the CO2 extract.

http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/product_p/extracthopshot10ml.htm


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## bradsbrew (23/2/14)

micblair said:


> These aren't what he's referring to. Hop oils are the ethanol extracts, whereas hop shots are the CO2 extract.
> 
> http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/product_p/extracthopshot10ml.htm


Ah, awesome.


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## indica86 (23/2/14)

Still an oil then? Just extracted differently?


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## Yob (23/2/14)

Pure aroma can be sourced too, been very tempted...


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## Spiesy (23/2/14)

micblair said:


> These aren't what he's referring to. Hop oils are the ethanol extracts, whereas hop shots are the CO2 extract.
> 
> http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/product_p/extracthopshot10ml.htm


$4.50USD per 10 IBU (based on a 60min addition) seems pretty expensive.

Once freighted into Australia, currency converted and some profit added to the retailer, you'd have to wonder why bother.


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## Yob (23/2/14)

The main factor that I've not gone for it, even on a personal level is it would kind of take the fun out of hop additions yeah?

Kind of clinical to add 3ml of a syringe rather than some sticky stinky hops 

I imagine it'd help with losses on a massive beer too so it does have its place, just not in my brewery... Yet...


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## lukiferj (23/2/14)

Could be handy for putting in a keg though


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## micblair (23/2/14)

Ellerslie also sell extracts, however not as individual doses. Perhaps there needs to be a group buy, or if a retailer is reading this -- they can potentially look at adding this to their range?


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## Camo6 (23/2/14)

Has anyone tried extracting their own oils using co2? I vaguely recall, from my misspent youth, people extracting resins from similar plant matter using a sealed tube with small orifices either end. Hmmm, might have to look into this.


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## mb-squared (23/2/14)

Yob said:


> The main factor that I've not gone for it, even on a personal level is it would kind of take the fun out of hop additions yeah?
> 
> Kind of clinical to add 3ml of a syringe rather than some sticky stinky hops
> 
> I imagine it'd help with losses on a massive beer too so it does have its place, just not in my brewery... Yet....


but when you want to brew up Pliny The Younger, you have to use shots. Not that I ever plan on doing that one...

http://russianriverbrewing.com/brews/pliny-the-younger/

and check out Kal's description of brewing this one up. sounds like an oily mess to clean up!
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26749


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## pilgrimspiss (24/2/14)

Yep used to do 'similar plants' thru poly pipe with holes in the end and pump lpg thru them for resin extract. Might have to try it with hops!!


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## zappa (24/2/14)

mb-squared said:


> but when you want to brew up Pliny The Younger, you have to use shots. Not that I ever plan on doing that one...
> 
> http://russianriverbrewing.com/brews/pliny-the-younger/


I don't think there is any particular requirement to use hop shots. 

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/6351/doubleIPA.pdf


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## peas_and_corn (24/2/14)

Camo6 said:


> Has anyone tried extracting their own oils using co2? I vaguely recall, from my misspent youth, people extracting resins from similar plant matter using a sealed tube with small orifices either end. Hmmm, might have to look into this.


Hop extracts are made using super critical co2. Not a simple method.


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## pat_00 (28/2/14)

So would these be sub cutaneous, intravenous, or intramuscular?


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## Yob (28/2/14)

suppository


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## wide eyed and legless (28/2/14)

Interestingly the MD of Hoyt's Foods is a member of AHB, could be giving him food for thought for another essence.


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## Kumamoto_Ken (28/2/14)

Spiesy said:


> $4.50USD per 10 IBU (based on a 60min addition) seems pretty expensive.
> 
> Once freighted into Australia, currency converted and some profit added to the retailer, you'd have to wonder why bother.


It says on the page that "One milliliter yields around 10 IBUs in 5 gallons of 1.050 wort when boiled for 60 minutes."
So you'd be getting 100IBU for USD4.50.

Mind you it also says each syringe holds 3mL, so do you get 3 full syringes and one with one millilitre in it to get your 10mil?


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## OneEye (14/8/14)

Anyone know if these are able to be sourced here at all? I'm brewing up a Pliny clone and want to minimise my losses to hop trub..... theres a shit load of hops

edit - auto correct beat me again


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## Yob (14/8/14)

just do more volume to account for the losses.. it's what we did (kinda) on a collaborative brew day..


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## vykuza (14/8/14)

We have some en route from the states right now. Expecting them today or tomorrow. I'll post again when they are on the site.


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## OneEye (14/8/14)

I'll keep an eye out nick


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## Donske (15/8/14)

Yob said:


> just do more volume to account for the losses.. it's what we did (kinda) on a collaborative brew day..


I do the same when kettle addition go north of 10g/L, 3-6L of extra losses added in Brewmate, drop efficiency to account for extra liquid.

The biggest losses with IIPAs aren't from my first wort or 75 minutes additions anyway, the massive additions from 10min on are the killers.


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## vykuza (15/8/14)

Hopshots are now listed on the site here.

I'll be brewing with them next week. They actually smell really nice. Eau de Hop. You could put a dab on for a refreshing beery cologne!


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## OneEye (15/8/14)

Thanks Nick! If I put an order in tonight would I get it by brewday on Tuesday?


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## vykuza (15/8/14)

I can ship Monday morning by Express Post - you've got a good chance. Can't guarantee a morning brew time though!


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## OneEye (15/8/14)

All good mate, finish Uni at 12 so that will be perfect


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## Elz (7/2/16)

Probably a simple question? But is there going to be a universal guide to these hop shots? Or is each seller going to put their own spin on the description. Would be good to have a consensus from sellers to help us consumers. KISS. Love to purchase from forum sponsors but wanting to compare apples with apples.
Cheers
Elz


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## timmi9191 (7/2/16)

Yob said:


> The main factor that I've not gone for it, even on a personal level is it would kind of take the fun out of hop additions yeah?
> 
> Kind of clinical to add 3ml of a syringe rather than some sticky stinky hops
> 
> I imagine it'd help with losses on a massive beer too so it does have its place, just not in my brewery... Yet...


How times have changed yob


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## Elz (7/2/16)

Being a Williamswarn owner knowing what ml of hotshot per 23 litre of beer and what flavour to expect would be invaluable knowledge. Again to retailers KISS. However you may what to keep this secret and only for the most advanced brewers!


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## Mardoo (7/2/16)

Um, certainly hop usage is not describable in a linear fashion. Being as the extracts Hopdealz is selling are straight extracts from cone hops, there will almost certainly be variation from year to year.

I'd assume the Shots will come closer to a recipe-type description than hop pellets or cones, but how the flavour presents itself will still be very dependent on the beer you're adding it to. I'm not sure universal descriptions and volumes for additions will be possible. I've tasted six of them and the flavour manifests quite differently depending on what beer you put it in. 

The chemistry of hops, whether cone, pellet or pure hop extracts just doesn't lend itself to easy description. I searched high and low for that information until a University of Oregon professor in their Fermentation Science department made it pretty clear to me it's just not possible.


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## Yob (7/2/16)

timmi9191 said:


> How times have changed yob


Not really mate.. I use it in ADDITION to traditional hopping


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## Elz (7/2/16)

Thanks Mardoo for your input. What would be good to know is that X amount of hopshot A ( BC...) will impart X amount of flavour simual to hop.. . That is hopshot (eg Limonata why not call the moteuka , if not what is the confusion) realtion to the real hop and for example what is the ml to achive the equivalent of x amount of dry hops. overall give us more details In plain English. Not too much to ask for?


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## wide eyed and legless (7/2/16)

There is a video on you tube on how to extract oils at home using food grade organic co2 in spray cans and it was discussed in another thread, it is just as easy, if not easier and quicker than using the solvent method but then the problem is the dosage.


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## Yob (7/2/16)

Elz said:


> That is hopshot (eg Limonata why not call the moteuka , if not what is the confusion)


coz many of them are proprietary and they cannot use the brand name


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## Elz (7/2/16)

Doesn't help the consumer! In fact confuses the fukc out of them. Retailers get your act together. Again, clear simple advice to your consumers, not blaming the 'system'.. Love to know more precise ways of how to use this product for the average home brewer. Sorry too be so blunt!


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## /// (7/2/16)

Funny that CUB whom were one of the worst culprits for hop extracts have gone away from using these and there is interest in using these in home brew ...


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## Camo6 (7/2/16)

Elz said:


> Thanks Mardoo for your input. What would be good to know is that X amount of hopshot A ( BC...) will impart X amount of flavour simual to hop.. . That is hopshot (eg Limonata why not call the moteuka , if not what is the confusion) realtion to the real hop and for example what is the ml to achive the equivalent of x amount of dry hops. overall give us more details In plain English. Not too much to ask for?


Plain English is not too much to ask for. In fact, it would go a long way to helping me understand this post.


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## Yob (7/2/16)

Elz said:


> Doesn't help the consumer! In fact confuses the fukc out of them. Retailers get your act together. Again, clear simple advice to your consumers, not blaming the 'system'.. Love to know more precise ways of how to use this product for the average home brewer. Sorry too be so blunt!


Have you read whats already been posted about them? Doesnt sound like it so here, have a read of THIS

Now I assume you are retired, so you should have plenty of time to experiment and report back


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## Elz (7/2/16)

Ha,too true, typing on an iPad without spellcheck sucks. Still the overall message is convieved without exact plain english. If I was not to busy doing what I am doing (public health) I reckon that there is a lotta money in hops and home brew in general. But, online only average details are provided via online/web providers; ON THEIR WEB SITE. In the USA northern brewer seem to provide a holistic service. In the meantime I'll stick to my local supplier for advice where I drive to and speak to an actual person. Unlikely to move to another supplier, especially online, as the information on line from the websites is generally poor. Don't shoot the messenger!!!

In the meantime I will continue to dry hop using pallets, until a supplier gives me the relevant info I need to change my habits. Beer tasting great without Hotshots! could be better? capitalism, sell your wares!!!
Cheers
Elz


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## Yob (7/2/16)

Elz said:


> In the USA northern brewer seem to provide a holistic service.


sure they do rummy...





Information has been posted already if you care to read it


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## Elz (7/2/16)

Yob, Careful with your argument. What do you have to add to the hop knowledge based on your website data (useful links?). I am NOT here to argue but to implore sellers on there web site to outline how hop shots can be used.


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## Elz (7/2/16)

Northern Brewer Holistic: http://brewingtv.com


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## Yob (7/2/16)

Frankly, why do you care? Doesn't sound as though it's your type of thing anyway...

I've posted information, I'm always ready to discuss and do so often.

Tell ya what I'll do for ya, I'll add the pdf of the information that's already been posted to the page.


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## Mardoo (7/2/16)

Elz said:


> Yob, Careful with your argument. What do you have to add to the hop knowledge based on your website data (useful links?). I am NOT here to argue but to implore sellers on there web site to outline how hop shots can be used.


Frankly I'm not sure what you're after here. Every brewer has to come to their own understanding of the craft, even if they're doing K&K. It's not something that can be simply laid out. You can receive the directions but you have to do it yourself. 

I am under the impression that I understand what you want, as I wanted it once myself. And, as I mentioned earlier, I was told by some of the most informed sources that this sort of knowledge does not yet exist due to the nature of the chemistry involved. Hop chemistry in interaction with wort and with the yeast biome is more complex than any of us can ever hope to understand. 

Vinnie Cilurzo, Matt Brynildson, Mitch Steele and other masters of brewing and hopping have come to their knowledge of hopping through their own direct experience and commissioning of studies. It's reallly, genuinely, truly not something one can say, "Do X and Y will be your result." If these hop extracts were standardised through massive fractionation of the individual components, then maybe, but they aren't. They are extracts of the crop of one particular season. The best you can hope for is a guideline, like a map, and until you walk the trail you'll never understand the forest.

I think you need to do some more work to understand the nature of the question you're asking. I've tried - for myself and by my own effort of study and communication with experts over the course of a year - to get what I think is the same answer you want. What I learned is that it doesn't exist. Sensory analyses are by their nature difficult, if not impossible, to communicate clearly and concisely. When one adds the complexity of hop and brewing chemistry on top of that, our science is quite frankly not there yet.

And here is the end of my trying veeeeeeeeeeery hard to be polite and contribute constructively to discourse.


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## Yob (8/2/16)

edited to ad the below info.

View attachment DOSING INFO.pdf


*HopBurst – Dry Hop Aroma*
General:
HopBurst are prepared from hop cones or T90 pellets by innovative extraction and
distillation methods. They consist of hop oil components in a propylene glycol (PG)
solution.

*Characteristics:*
HopBurst provides an easy method of adding intense hop aroma independent of any
other product or process. Specifically, HopBurst gives a ‘dry hop’ aroma to beer that is
characteristic of the specific variety of hops from which it is prepared. The product also
enhances pleasant existing flavours and can mask some off-flavours in the beer.
Light stable: All products are free of α-acids and can be used with any beer packaging type.
Fully soluble: HopBurst utilisation is up to 100% as it is fully soluble.
Easy handling: Provided as a standardised solution for dosing into bright beer.
Natural: 100% derived from hops by physical processes.
Product development: The products can be used to differentiate from a single wort
stream or to add layers of aroma and flavour to an existing product.

*Product Specifications:*
Description: water white solution, can be hazy
Odour: characteristic of variety
Specific gravity (20°C) 1.035 – 1.045
Flash point: >90°C (194°F)

*Product use:*
HopBurst are fully soluble in beer and are intended for addition to fined or filtered
beers. They can be dosed into finished beer without the need for subsequent filtration,
with gentle mixing required for maximum effect. Regardless if the beer is intended to be
kegged, bottled or filled into casks, the optimum way of dosing HopBurst products is inline
dosing into the beer stream on transfer to the bright beer tank or racking vessel.
HopBurst can also be added direct into finishing vessel prior to transferring the beer,
where the transfer should ensure the product is mixed. For dosing direct to casks, we
recommend doing so either during the racking process or into the full cask. HopBurst
should be added separately from cask finings.

*Product Development:*
Trials are recommended to determine the concentration required to give your required
aroma and flavour effect. The rate of initial dosing should be 10ml/hl of the HopBurst.
This can be dosed to a bottle of beer using a pipette at a rate of 0.1 μL/ml bottle volume
(i.e for a 330 ml bottle dose 33 μl). Chill the beer to normal drinking temperature. Add
the required volume of HopBurst into the beer. Re-close the bottle, inverting to mix and
then chill for minimum 2 hours before tasting.

Dose rate: Typical dose rates start at 5 – 40 ml/hl (0.05 – 0.4 ml/l). Depending on the
base beer style and on the effect you want to achieve the dose rate can be altered within
this range. In the USA, however, triple hopped IPA beers are using up to 100 ml/hl!

Calculation example for a barrel or cask -
1 UK barrel = 36 gallon = 288 pints = 163 litres; at 10ml per hl dose rate this gives an
addition of 16.5 ml per barrel
9 gallon cask = 72 pints = approx. 41 litres; at 10 ml per hl dose rate this gives an
addition of 4 ml per cask

*Packaging:*
Standard packaging for HopBurst is a 1 litre or a 5 litre aluminium flask, or 20lt steel
lacquered drums.

*Storage and shelf life:*
HopBurst are stable in unopened containers for at least 12 months in the packaging
supplied and should be stored at 5 - 25°C

*Regulatory*
HopBurst qualify for natural status with regard to their flavouring properties. In the
European Union they may be classified as natural hop flavouring or hop extract
according to the flavouring legislation (1334/2008EC). In the USA, HopBurst is
classified as a natural extractive, since essential oils, oleoresins and natural extractives
(including distillates) from hops are GRAS for their intended use (21.C.F.R. § 582.20


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## Weizguy (8/2/16)

/// said:


> Funny that CUB whom were one of the worst culprits for hop extracts have gone away from using these and there is interest in using these in home brew ...


Scotty, you say 'culprit' like it's a negative thing to use hop extract.
Is it all so bad, and how?


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## /// (13/2/16)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Scotty, you say 'culprit' like it's a negative thing to use hop extract.
> Is it all so bad, and how?


The CUB efforts were all about wort economy and diverting beer to different brands based on spec, never about flavor

Thankfully it's a flavor consideration for these sorts of options


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## blekk (8/6/16)

For the home brewer/mad scientist, a simple oil extract can be done with a Soxhlet extractor at home. Setup for around $100 and you could dabble in all the extracts you want (lemon, coffee, hops, cinnamon etc.), to add flavours to your beers.


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## Yob (8/6/16)

Links?


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## peteru (8/6/16)

A quick look at wikipedia page would suggest that a Soxhlet extractor is not the best choice for volatile compounds, but I have no practical experience with it.

@blair - have you tried it?


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## blekk (8/6/16)

You're right, soxhlet extraction isn't the best option but with limited equipment, cost - super critical co2 extraction is HELL expensive!!, low danger and ease it would be perfect for small scale home production. A lot of labs still have and use the soxhlet extraction method due to ease and simplicity. Volatile organic compounds are funny things, as different compounds have different boiling points and react differently to solvents. So with hops having roughly 36+ organic compounds (please correct me if I’m wrong), unless you have access to a fully equipped lab it's dang near impossible to achieve a full extraction (it may be possible but I'm not an organic chemist, just a hobbyist  ).

@yob - will dig up some links tonight

@peteru - No not yet as I'm re-stocking/designing my brewlab area after a year or so off, however I have purchased a soxhlet to do small scale extractions after considering the other home achievable methods (butane, steam etc).


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## Bribie G (8/6/16)

What I'd really like to get hold of are the Euro hop extracts.

Say what you like about the overall quality of beers such as Oettinger, Henninger, Sainte Etienne or Bavaria, one thing that they have in common is a lovely hit of noble aroma when you pop the lid and burped up the back of the nose during drinking. The other thing is when you read the label and see "hop extract" or in the case of Oettinger "Hop sex tract" 

I find it very hard to get that hit even with the classic Saaz, Hallertau varieties etc. I'd guess there is such a small home brewing fellowship in continental Europe that nobody has sourced any for sale, yet.


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## Bribie G (8/6/16)

Better keep the garage door shut during operation.


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## Yob (8/6/16)

Bribie G said:


> What I'd really like to get hold of are the Euro hop extracts.
> 
> Say what you like about the overall quality of beers such as Oettinger, Henninger, Sainte Etienne or Bavaria, one thing that they have in common is a lovely hit of noble aroma when you pop the lid and burped up the back of the nose during drinking. The other thing is when you read the label and see "hop extract" or in the case of Oettinger "Hop sex tract"
> 
> I find it very hard to get that hit even with the classic Saaz, Hallertau varieties etc. I'd guess there is such a small home brewing fellowship in continental Europe that nobody has sourced any for sale, yet.



can be obtained


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## Bribie G (8/6/16)

Do tell, I'd love some.

Hopefully not the "liquid hops" offered on a certain site, they don't seem to have much aroma (used a vial a few years ago for a Pils but no noticeable improvement).


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## Yob (8/6/16)

if its extracted, it's liquid.

Fresh extract certainly DOES have aroma, in spades...

I also suffered at the hands of (what I believe) was much older stocks that had SFA aroma years ago.. from a 'reputable source'

Personally, I'd have pulled it and thrown it out rather than give good product a bad name.


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## blekk (8/6/16)

Bribie G said:


> Better keep the garage door shut during operation.


No more suss then this


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## Bribie G (8/6/16)

Reminds me of when I was originally looking for a fermenting fridge - ended up getting kegemates (have 3 now) but the looks on staff / customer faces when I walked into HN, Good Guys etc carrying a keg for measurement purposes.. 

Probably not a good idea nowadays especially if shouting Allah ha Akhbar..

OK back on topic.


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## Bribie G (8/6/16)

Yob said:


> if its extracted, it's liquid.
> 
> Fresh extract certainly DOES have aroma, in spades...
> 
> ...


Any hints as to current suppliers? PM would be fine if you don't want to spruik anyone in particular in public. I was rather hoping you'd be extending your shots to Euro....


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## Yob (8/6/16)

I may well be, was waiting on crops to hit the suppliers


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## Bribie G (8/6/16)

Pencil me in for a few, I haven't tried your Americans yet as I'm not a huge APA AIPA brewer.

When the kegs are empty my go to beers are usually Euro production lagers (not Rivet :lol: ) so I'd love to get close to them as I'm now in a position to make serious lagers with my new fridge, oxy kit, SS etc.


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## blekk (8/6/16)

Yob said:


> Links?


As mentioned a few links below in regards to the procedure in general with very sciencey results. I'm just looking forward to tinkering :chug:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4004744/pdf/jmbe-15-45.pdf
Using Soxhlet Ethanol Extraction to Produce and Test Plant Material (Essential Oils) for Their Antimicrobial Properties

http://www.orientjchem.org/vol30no1/extraction-of-essential-oil-from-cinnamon-cinnamomum-zeylanicum/
Extraction of Essential Oil from Cinnamon (quite in depth)

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-12/documents/3540c.pdf
Old EPA procedure manual

http://nature.berkeley.edu/ahg/pubs/OrmenoEtAl_TrAC_2011.pdf
Extracting and trapping biogenic volatile organic compounds stored in plant species (good +/- of different methods side by side)


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## Bribie G (8/6/16)

You mentioned sub $100 - where would you source your equipment from ?

Fark, in the last source, a picture of a microwave oven with a hole drilled in the top and the stem of the apparatus sticking out of the top. I could be into that.

Now you are fckn talking B) B)


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## blekk (8/6/16)

Basic setup around $100. The soxhlet I bought was from a company called Reacware, just a 150ml cheapy (yes I know poor man pays twice...), but it does have nice ground glass Joints (sizes 19/26 and 34/35), and is _supposedly _Borosilicate 3.3 (it is quite a thick heavy glass comparable to my pyrex beakers). I'm actually quite impressed with the quality, I wasn't expecting much for $50 but there are no air bubbles or impurities that I can see, glass thickness is even all around and the joins are finished very nicely. Heating can be done in a water bath on any heat source although a proper lab heating mantle would be nice; add a lab stand, solvent and cooling hose and you're pretty much ready to go. Yes you could spend more but to get started $100 isn't much of a stretch for something that might be a bit of fun on the side.


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