# Brewing a Lager



## Scoots (8/8/21)

Hi all. Quick question for everyone. First time Lager brewer. This will be my fourth brew in total but first Lager (rest have been ales). Just wondering if anyone puts a light dry malt into their mix? I'm planning on throwing in some corn syrup and dextrose but curious as to whether anything else should go in to it?
Cheers


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## Lodan (8/8/21)

It's a great idea to add some DME into the mix. It will give your lager a bit more body and flavour. What are the other ingredients you plan on using?


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## dibbz (8/8/21)

Pretty sure it's not good advice to be adding adjuncts for body when OP is already adding adjuncts to remove body.


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## Lodan (8/8/21)

dibbz said:


> Pretty sure it's not good advice to be adding adjuncts for body when OP is already adding adjuncts to remove body.



There is nothing wrong with mixing the two and it really depends on what OP is hoping to achieve with the recipe.


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## Scoots (8/8/21)

Lodan said:


> It's a great idea to add some DME into the mix. It will give your lager a bit more body and flavour. What are the other ingredients you plan on using?


I have no recipe to work off so was just thinking 500 g dextrose, 250 g corn syrup and the coopers syrup


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## Scoots (8/8/21)

dibbz said:


> Pretty sure it's not good advice to be adding adjuncts for body when OP is already adding adjuncts to remove body.


To be honest ive no idea what you mean mate


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## Lodan (8/8/21)

Scoots said:


> I have no recipe to work off so was just thinking 500 g dextrose, 250 g corn syrup and the coopers syrup


No problem. The ingredients you are using would result in a 'dry' lager with light body. If you subbed the dex or corn syrup addition for 500g of malt, you will have something similar in alcohol content with a bit more body and malt flavour.


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## Scoots (9/8/21)

Lodan said:


> No problem. The ingredients you are using would result in a 'dry' lager with light body. If you subbed the dex or corn syrup addition for 500g of malt, you will have something similar in alcohol content with a bit more body and malt flavour.


Cheers mate
I ended up putting all those in and added from memory about 300g of malt aswell.

Thanks for the advice


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## Paddy Melon (9/8/21)

Hi Guys, whilst on the subject of lager is the only difference, between lager and ale, the yeast and the temperature it is fermented at?


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## yankinoz (9/8/21)

Paddy Melon said:


> Hi Guys, whilst on the subject of lager is the only difference, between lager and ale, the yeast and the temperature it is fermented at?


In essence, yes, but:

1. Yeast and temp overlap. "Steam beers" like Anchor use lager yeasts at ale temps. S-189 and White Labs San Francisco Lager are used for the purpose. Faux lagers use ale yeasts at the upper end of the normal lager temp range. Notty is good for that. US-05 originated in a brewery that used it for that purpose.

What yeast are you using? If it's from a lager kit, I'm not certain it will be a lager yeast.

2. If you actually cold-condition for months, you're in a different world, especially for hop aroma and flavour. Probably not what you have in mind.

Looking at your recipe, I would sub DME for part of the adjuncts unless I wanted a beer to keep in an ice bath at one of those games that go on all day for six days under a blazing sun.


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## Paddy Melon (9/8/21)

Thanks Yankinoz, I'm using WLP 800 at the moment with a Coopers Lager. I was thinking of using it with a pale ale just for a try. Also If I want to have a stronger hop flavour do I just add a hop tea that has been boiled for about 30 minutes (or is that too much) to my fermenter at the start of the fermentation process?


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## yankinoz (9/8/21)

Hop flavour is little different right after fermentation between a lager and an ale yeast. If you aren't cold-conditioning for a long time, it won't matter. Most home brewers don't lager more than a month or two. 

What are you trying to do with the hop tea? Bittering? Flavour?

WLP 800 is a Czech pilsner yeast, reportedly a Budvar strain and very good. Ferment cold.


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## Paddy Melon (9/8/21)

Thanks Y, I wanted the flavour not the additional bitterness, slight additional bitterness isn't a problem. I thought a hop tea might be the answer?


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## yankinoz (10/8/21)

Paddy Melon said:


> Thanks Y, I wanted the flavour not the additional bitterness, slight additional bitterness isn't a problem. I thought a hop tea might be the answer?



A hop tea boiled for 30 minutes will give you mostly bittering, less flavour or aroma. You could use hop tea without boiling, but I'd go with a post-boil hop stand of at least a half hour. Let the wort first cool below 80 and additional bittering will be nil. Or dry hop.


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## Paddy Melon (10/8/21)

Thanks Y, that's what I was after.


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## raybies (11/8/21)

I'm a n00b, w/ just 2 brews under my belt, however I am seeing a lot of videos about pressure fermenting.
Why should I use an air lock if people are recommending pressure fermenting to improve and speed up fermentation, wouldn't a pressure valve be better?


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## philrob (11/8/21)

Forget pressure fermenting. It's the latest fashion thing to attempt to suppress esters in lagers etc. Personally, I can't see the benefit of it on a homebrew scale. 
To the best of my knowledge, it's a technique used by megabrewers to speed up the production of megaswill, and increase their turnover and profits.
I've been brewing for 15 years and have never felt the need to indulge in fashion items.
Still, I'm no follower of fashion, so if it floats you boat, go for it.


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## raybies (11/8/21)

philrob said:


> Forget pressure fermenting. It's the latest fashion thing to attempt to suppress esters in lagers etc. Personally, I can't see the benefit of it on a homebrew scale.
> To the best of my knowledge, it's a technique used by megabrewers to speed up the production of megaswill, and increase their turnover and profits.
> I've been brewing for 15 years and have never felt the need to indulge in fashion items.
> Still, I'm no follower of fashion, so if it floats you boat, go for it.


Too late to forget, I already ordered a fermzilla... however I have 2 ss fermenters which have bubblers, I mean air locks, which I could convert to a pressure valve of 10 psi. It's a $0 cost change, and if it's for the better, why not? However if it has a detriment pls let me know.


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## yankinoz (12/8/21)

raybies said:


> Too late to forget, I already ordered a fermzilla... however I have 2 ss fermenters which have bubblers, I mean air locks, which I could convert to a pressure valve of 10 psi. It's a $0 cost change, and if it's for the better, why not? However if it has a detriment pls let me know.



I've never used a Fermzilla, but it looks like a good design. Conical fermenters have their advantages. Maintaining positive pressure of one psi or less would keep out any backflow or diffusion of air. but would not constitute pressure fermentation, which I believe normally rises to 15 or 20 psi.

Fermentation produces amounts of CO2 that exceed the air space in a fermenter many. many times over. I've posted calculations in other threads. Claims for pressure fermentation that it preserves hop aromas by not letting gas carry them away are bogus. All pressure fermentation does in that respect is delay the loss for a few hours early on.

Common practice in some German breweries has long been to let beer ferment at atmospheric pressure or very slight positive pressure until near the end and then shut the valves to develop carbonation. Then they lager as usual. You can find Martin Kai's (Braukaiser) descriptions online.


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## raybies (12/8/21)

What if your fermenter is only 50% full, I know ideally it should be 80%; would it be better to try and pressurise the fermenter or would the normal CO2 displace the oxigen adequately? I was thinking of inflating a sanitised latex balloon to reduce the head space.


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## MHB (12/8/21)

The amount of CO2 produced during the ferment will make the balloon look tiny.
If you fermented a 23L, 1.050 wort down to 1.010 you would be making around 630L of CO2 (rough fingercount)
Remember O2 is good at pitching, and after that it’s kept out by the evolving CO2 and your airlock.
Mark


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## raybies (12/8/21)

MHB said:


> The amount of CO2 produced during the ferment will make the balloon look tiny.
> If you fermented a 23L, 1.050 wort down to 1.010 you would be making around 630L of CO2 (rough fingercount)
> Remember O2 is good at pitching, and after that it’s kept out by the evolving CO2 and your airlock.
> Mark


Thanks for the info... this now begs the question, why do people say "keep the fermentation headspace as low as possible to avoid oxigen ingress" when this will quickly be displaced by CO2?


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## MHB (12/8/21)

If you opened a brewing text book, it would recommend 30% headspace in a fermenter, 50% if you were fermenting a wheat beer.
People say lots of things that don’t make a lot of sense to me, I just work on the theory that half the population has a below average IQ.
Mark


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## yankinoz (13/8/21)

raybies said:


> What if your fermenter is only 50% full, I know ideally it should be 80%; would it be better to try and pressurise the fermenter or would the normal CO2 displace the oxigen adequately? I was thinking of inflating a sanitised latex balloon to reduce the head space.



Note MHB's above comment or Look up the old thread where I addressed a 50% headspace. A beer fermenting to 5% abv would produce many times that volume of CO2 even after saturating the beer. Pressure fermenters of course have relief valves set to release at the desired pressure and prevent wild overcarbonation or an exploded fermenter.


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## raybies (20/8/21)

How does one determine the maximum pressure/temperature ratio for pressure fermenting... a SafLager™ W-34/70?
And what would happen without temp. control? There's no way for me to get the Fermzilla in my fridge, without lying it on it's side, and my garage temp. currently ranges from 7c to 24c.


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## yankinoz (21/8/21)

Yikes. Sacrificing temperature control in order to pressure ferment is like trading in a Mercedes for a Yugo. Either get some measure of control, ditch the Fermzilla or find an old fridge that fits it.

You can smooth temp variation by insulating or putting the fermenter in a water bath, except that insulation will lead to fast heating during the active phase of fermentation. You'd need a deep tub to hold water and a Fermzilla. (and make damn sure the taps don't admit bacteria)

At present your best bet is to start fermentation as cool as the yeast allows. With that yeast the ideal would be 8--10, but you'd probably need to ptch two packets. If the temp is likely to drop to 7 overnight, pitch and then insulate with old blankets or whatever. Once you see the temp rising or CO2 being produced, which will take a day or two, immediately remove the insulation (if it happens early in your sleep or while at work, you have a problem). Then try the best you can to keep it cool during the active phase. Once the bubbling slows ro a crawl, insulate again. 

S-189 would be more forgiving, It can start at 11 or below and the quality holds up fairly well if temps rise. Ross at Craftbrewer/Bacchus has used it in a room set to 19, I've had it go to 15 on an Oktoberfest and liked the results.


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## raybies (21/8/21)

yankinoz said:


> Yikes. Sacrificing temperature control in order to pressure ferment is like trading in a Mercedes for a Yugo. Either get some measure of control, ditch the Fermzilla or find an old fridge that fits it.
> 
> You can smooth temp variation by insulating or putting the fermenter in a water bath, except that insulation will lead to fast heating during the active phase of fermentation. You'd need a deep tub to hold water and a Fermzilla. (and make damn sure the taps don't admit bacteria)
> 
> ...



Thanks.
So how does one determine temp/psi ratio?
I've seen lagers being fermented @ 27c and 28psi, and I'm not sure how one comes to those figures.


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## yankinoz (22/8/21)

raybies said:


> Thanks.
> So how does one determine temp/psi ratio?
> I've seen lagers being fermented @ 27c and 28psi, and I'm not sure how one comes to those figures.



What for? Temperature affects pressure, but as long as fermentation is producing gas or the temp is rising, the relief valve will keep pressure steady. Once active fermentation slows the pressure will rise and fall slightly with variations in temp. So what? Again, fermentation will produce plenty of CO2.


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## Half-baked (22/8/21)

raybies said:


> So how does one determine temp/psi ratio?
> I've seen lagers being fermented @ 27c and 28psi, and I'm not sure how one comes to those figures.


You seem to be assuming there is science behind any of this.
Pressure fermenting is a newish trend, with no empirical data to back it up (at least that I’m aware of). 
I haven’t even seen any reliable studies with sensory panels to validate the theory that you can brew a ‘proper’ lager under pressure at ale temps. (Brulosophy doesn’t count in my books.)
You may or may not be able to do it, but until I see some solid evidence, I’m very happy to stick to the traditional approach: low fermentation temps with a BIG pitch of yeast.


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## raybies (22/8/21)

I was assuming there was some level of reasoning associated with pressure/temp/duration, but evidence does lend itself more to brewer experimention. My issue is temperature control capacity, so wanted some reasoning/logical pointers before experimenting w/ variable temperatures. I can probably get the max/min temp. differential down to about 10c, but spring maybe more challenging. Garage has hit 62c in summer and -1c in winter, and in spring the swings can be 30c... tin roof, concrete floor, full sun exposure, semi desert climate.

I've got control of pressure and time, it's just consistent temp., but maybe the yeast will be like... "fine whatever".


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## Half-baked (22/8/21)

Like Yankinoz said, if you are faced with a choice between temp control (even with with a cheap fermenter) or pressure fermenting (with a good fermenter), I’d choose temp control every time.

Some styles could be okay without accurate temp control—there are ways to moderate temp fluctuations without a fridge—but if you’re brewing a lager I would say it’s a must.


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## MHB (22/8/21)

Actually it’s not all that new, pressure fermentation was pretty thoroughly investigated in the late 80's and early 90's.
The numbers were all done by Narziss around 2005, it hasn’t been widely embraced by commercial brewers. Those that have tend to be the makers of the cheapest mass market beers, not the makers of the best lagers.
Echoing a couple of other people Temperature Control is Critical to making good lagers.
Braukaiser has a very good write-up on Fermenting Lagers
Had a look through a couple of books, Kunze give the subject 2 paragraphs. Fix in passing, notes that blind tastings by professional tasting panels give 1st to open fermentation, 2nd to closed 3rd to uni-tank (slight overpressure) fermented beers.
Mark

From Kunze


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## Hangover68 (23/8/21)

Keep scouring gumtree and facebook marketplace, i found an all fridge large bar fridge for free that easily fits my fermetersaurus so i can now temp control and pressure ferment.


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## yankinoz (24/8/21)

Hangover68 said:


> Keep scouring gumtree and facebook marketplace, i found an all fridge large bar fridge for free that easily fits my fermetersaurus so i can now temp control and pressure ferment.


I'll call that a happy ending. Good luck. If you don't like the results, try without the pressure and then lager.


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## raybies (24/8/21)

Harvesting lager yeast: I collected the below, but not sure how to harvest it. Utube videos show people collecting the clear liquid, but that's beer.


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## Hangover68 (24/8/21)

yankinoz said:


> I'll call that a happy ending. Good luck. If you don't like the results, try without the pressure and then lager.



I've done both ways, can still lager even after pressure fermenting just now i don't need to move the FV.
I also have another temp controlled fridge more suited to standard shaped fermenters and cubes.


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## yankinoz (26/8/21)

MHB said:


> Actually it’s not all that new, pressure fermentation was pretty thoroughly investigated in the late 80's and early 90's.
> The numbers were all done by Narziss around 2005, it hasn’t been widely embraced by commercial brewers. Those that have tend to be the makers of the cheapest mass market beers, not the makers of the best lagers.
> Echoing a couple of other people Temperature Control is Critical to making good lagers.
> Braukaiser has a very good write-up on Fermenting Lagers
> ...


Re the Fix reference, too bad he didn't provide more detail or a link. Presumably the experiment was done on beers made by the same recipe, and I'll guess they used the hops typical of continental lagers.

A possible advantage of pressure brewing might be in lagers made with assertive hops, especially fruity ones, that lose or change character during extended lagering. Brooklyn Lager is a good example of a hoppy lager, and I've heard of US "New England India Pale Lagers," Whether the brewers used pressure or somehow added hop aroma and flavour after lagering, I don't know.


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## MHB (26/8/21)

To the best of my knowledge Brooklyn Lager is a very conventionally brewed lager; it’s finished with Hallertau Mittlefrüh used late in the kettle or whirlpool. There was a brewery sponsored recipe on BYO's website at one time, worth a read.
Being another brewer who has had highly late/dry hopped beers go to shit way too fast; I have been thinking about why.
I suspect it’s about stabilisation. All chemical reactions happen faster warmer. So I suspect that a lot of highly reactive chemicals (especially in hops) are being transformed (well taking part in chemical reactions) in the kettle where there is little to no Oxygen. If these hop constituents are added to cooler beer I suspect the reactions take place with whatever is available, often Oxygen.
Practicing very effective Low DO brewing will help but I suspect these beers are highly unstable and that they will never have a long shelf life. Oxygen can act as a free radical so remarkably small amounts can do immense harm to flavours. Pressure fermentation won’t help in the slightest, unless it is part of an overall DO reducing brewing process.
Mark


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## yankinoz (27/8/21)

MHB said:


> To the best of my knowledge Brooklyn Lager is a very conventionally brewed lager; it’s finished with Hallertau Mittlefrüh used late in the kettle or whirlpool. There was a brewery sponsored recipe on BYO's website at one time, worth a read.
> Being another brewer who has had highly late/dry hopped beers go to shit way too fast; I have been thinking about why.
> I suspect it’s about stabilisation. All chemical reactions happen faster warmer. So I suspect that a lot of highly reactive chemicals (especially in hops) are being transformed (well taking part in chemical reactions) in the kettle where there is little to no Oxygen. If these hop constituents are added to cooler beer I suspect the reactions take place with whatever is available, often Oxygen.
> Practicing very effective Low DO brewing will help but I suspect these beers are highly unstable and that they will never have a long shelf life. Oxygen can act as a free radical so remarkably small amounts can do immense harm to flavours. Pressure fermentation won’t help in the slightest, unless it is part of an overall DO reducing brewing process.
> Mark



My point about pressure fermenting, which I should have made clearer, is that by reducing lagering time it might reduce the loss of hop flavour. Maybe. Of course lagering temps slow reactions, but if one lagers four to six months (I have) the loss is noticeable and well known. 

I'll check out the BYO reference. Thanks.


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## raybies (30/8/21)

I'm thinking of introducing some higher attenuating yeast in to the fermzilla 1 week after starting fermenting w/ 34/70.
What do you folk reckon?
Objective is to attenuate more and add complixity with different yeast.


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## MHB (30/8/21)

raybies, you have a lot to learn about yeast!
Nearly all the "flavours" produced by yeast are made in the early reproductive phase of the yeasts life cycle.
To reproduce (and make flavours) yeast needs certain nutrients, primarily Oxygen and Lipids, when it runs out of any one of many nutrients it stops reproducing and starts making alcohol.
Adding more yeast later won’t do much of anything in the way of reproducing (or making flavours).
The apparent attenuation for 34/70 is around 88% there aren’t many lager yeasts with higher attenuation.

Mate you really should do a bit of learning about brewing, if you know what you are doing you can make very good beer in very basic equipment. If you want to make Lager get temperature control over your ferment, pitch a large enough population of healthy yeast and follow the basic steps.
That approach will make for better beer and make it cheaper than investing in a pile of bling that you don’t understand. At a minimum read the links posted above but FFS quit making it up as you go.
Mark

This is a fair representation of what the population in a brew looks like, what you are talking about is adding something like the initial pitch, it won’t reproduce much so you can see how much effect it will have on the overall brew.


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## raybies (30/8/21)

MHB said:


> Mate you really should do a bit of learning about brewing


So I should introduce some new yeast after 5 days to see what happens... ie to learn?


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## raybies (3/9/21)

raybies said:


> So I should introduce some new yeast after 5 days to see what happens... ie to learn?


David says after the primary yeast has attenuated 30%.


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## TimInQld (17/9/21)

Don’t we all pressure fermentation when using an air lock? Given there is normal pressure plus the (admittedly minimal, but still present) additional hydraulic head created by the one centimetre or so if water in the air lock. Has anyone tried a bigger air lock with increased hydraulic head to create more back pressure within the FV?


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## Tubbsy9876 (28/9/21)

TimInQld said:


> Don’t we all pressure fermentation when using an air lock? Given there is normal pressure plus the (admittedly minimal, but still present) additional hydraulic head created by the one centimetre or so if water in the air lock. Has anyone tried a bigger air lock with increased hydraulic head to create more back pressure within the FV?


I've just got a pressure fermenter - the main reason I got it was to do pressurised transfers a bit more easily. I don't plan on fermenting at much above 2-3 psi, but having the fittings to transfer closed was appealing


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