# Got To Be Airborne, Right?



## jimmysuperlative (22/5/11)

Im struggling with a recurring, persistent, frustrating beer quality problem which I believe is an infection in my beer.

I am losing almost 3 in 5 beers to an infection that presents as a sour/off aroma and stripped out hop flavour and aroma that leaves the beer with an increased or amplified bitterness.

The beer looks quite good normal really reasonably clear, good head retention and carbonation (I keg and force carb) and in some cases is quite drinkable - if I imagine Im drinking a saison/farmhouse (its a stretch). However, its nothing like the mainly pale ales that Im hoping to brew.

Ive been battling this for over 12 months now! I've followed much of the advice Ive found on this site and others that says to replace any plastic, change sanitisers, use only stainless and glass, aerate with filtered air, purge with CO2 etc, etc, etc.

All Ive left to do is ferment off-site (which a mate is doing for me), or use completely "closed fermentation", but Im hopeful there is someone out there who this rings a bell for and who maybe has some suggestions.

I need to add that this infection has happened with both AG and kits. Everything seems okay going into the fermenter (pet better bottle which I purge with CO2), the fermentation appears normal and wort doesnt have obvious signs of infection (glad wrap and rubber band over neck of fermenter). But the sour aroma is noticeable at transfer to the keg still there after force carbonation and even after months of aging.

And then Ill brew a couple that are spot on??!

Its doing my head in!!! Please advise! :blink:


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## O'Henry (22/5/11)

Do you treat your water? Is it mains water? Not saying anything, just wondering...


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## jimmysuperlative (22/5/11)

[quote name='O'Henry' post='775955' date='May 22 2011, 01:25 PM']Do you treat your water? Is it mains water? Not saying anything, just wondering...[/quote]


I use Five star 5.2 to adjust mash ...then full boil with AG. Even gone the bottled water option for kits. Not discounting anything though!


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## ekul (22/5/11)

Have you tried nochilling?

I had a run of infections (lost like 5-10 batches in a row i think) which i think was from wild yeast whilst waiting for my immersion chiller to cool my wort. I went to nochill so that bugs couldn't get into my brew whilst cooling, haven't had an infection since.

If i were you i'd try this if you haven't already.

EDITED- You can get these kits for turning a 50L keg into a fermenter. If you did this (and the keg still holds pressure) you could _sterilise_ the keg by boiling water in it under pressure. Then you could fill the keg with your hot wort and let it cool slowly. You'd reckon that there would be nothing getting in there then! The only problem wouyld be aeration i suppose.

Repeated infections really suck. It did my head in when i was getting batch after batch fail. I replaced my entire brewing setup, pots, fermenters the lot and it was still happening. I bought a silicon siphon and $15 cube and i never had another infection!! Wish i'd done that first!





jimmysuperlative said:


> I use Five star 5.2 to adjust mash ...then full boil with AG. Even gone the bottled water option for kits. Not discounting anything though!


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## jimmysuperlative (22/5/11)

ekul, believe me I've been looking at the "sanke ferment kit". As for no-chill, it's how I've always brewed ...and this is how random the problem can be: I can knock-out 50L of wort into two jerry cans to no-chill. Both cubes will seem fine -even storing for weeks- and I detect no "off" aromas at transfer to fermenter. Like i said, I purge with CO2 and make a point to use quality yeast. I used to pour wort into fermenter to aerate, recently moved to filtered airstone.

I boil my silicone tubing prior to transfer ...and have probably turned over most of my gear three or four times in an effort to break the cycle. I've tried to simplify things to avoid wort exposure. my process is pretty much boil, nochill, fermenter, keg. There's no racking to secondary, or taking hydrometer samples during fermentation.

Maybe it's me? Maybe I'll try taking an iodophor shower before attempting any wort transfer???


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## outbreak (22/5/11)

Maybe try bottling a batch? Might have a dodgy weld in a keg? New fermentor/tap. Strip down your beer taps?
Whats your yeast starter procedure?


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## jimmysuperlative (22/5/11)

outbreak said:


> Maybe try bottling a batch? Might have a dodgy weld in a keg? New fermentor/tap. Strip down your beer taps?
> Whats your yeast starter procedure?




I just end up with dodgy beer in a bottle... the problem is either there at end of ferment, or it isn't. 

...and I have replaced fermenter taps, fermenters, kettle valves, etc 

Has anyone ever sent samples off for lab analysis? Who does this sort of testing?


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## ekul (22/5/11)

so where do you detect the taste? I had a taste in my beer recently, then i cleaned out the taps and it went away.


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## redlegger (22/5/11)

Do you ferment in a fridge?? I had trouble with mould growth in my fermentation fridge, luckily i got it cleaned up before it could ruin any of my brews!


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## jimmysuperlative (22/5/11)

ekul said:


> so where do you detect the taste? I had a taste in my beer recently, then i cleaned out the taps and it went away.



The "taste" is more of a scrubbing out of hop flavour and aroma. It's replaced by a "wrong tasting" bitterness - not really sour or vinegar? Its there at transfer with the "off" aromas.



redlegger9 said:


> Do you ferment in a fridge?? I had trouble with mould growth in my fermentation fridge, luckily i got it cleaned up before it could ruin any of my brews!



Yeah, I worried about that too ...especially, air being sucked in through airlocks. I've bleach bomed the fridge, fridge drains, seals a number of times ...and i don't use air locks any more. I've also brewed outside (the fridge) in other rooms, with mixed results.

Thanks for the responses guys, keep 'em coming. I wan't to end this once and for all ...without moving house preferably.


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## raven19 (22/5/11)

Are you repitching yeast?

Using fresh liquid or dry yeast?

Starter size? Testing starter prior to pitching?


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## redlegger (22/5/11)

Sounds like you have changed every variable except for the location of the brewing and fermentation process! 
If you ferment at a mates house and get the same results i guess the only thing left to do is brew at a mates house :mellow:


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## jimmysuperlative (22/5/11)

raven19 said:


> Are you repitching yeast?
> 
> Using fresh liquid or dry yeast?
> 
> Starter size? Testing starter prior to pitching?



mate, I'm not game to give the yeast exposure to anything it doesn't need prior to pitching ...so it's packet us05 or saf04 straight into fermenter. Was rehydrating, but gave that up as a possible cause of infection.



redlegger9 said:


> Sounds like you have changed every variable except for the location of the brewing and fermentation process!
> If you ferment at a mates house and get the same results i guess the only thing left to do is brew at a mates house :mellow:



That's where I'm up to, red. Got a batch at a mates in his gear on the go ...so it's wait and see. I just handed him the cube full of fresh wort, didn't even go with him to his place ...so i hope it goes good for him. Although, because my results can be hit and miss anyway, I'm not sure what it can really tell me if it ends up a good beer. It would be a better result for me if the beer was shite, at least that puts the problem at pre-fermenter? 

I appreciate your thoughts. :icon_cheers:


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## Bada Bing Brewery (22/5/11)

Could it be a grain issue? Have you looked back on all your good and bad brews? There might be a pattern specific to a certain grain (maybe bulk stuff used) - long shot .....
cheers
BBB


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## jimmysuperlative (22/5/11)

I use a lot of TF MO as a base, but it's come from various sources. I'm reasonably happy that its not an "ingredients" problem just for the fact that its happened for kit beers as well as AG brews.

Anyone know about bugs that are both airborne and anaerobic?


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## Thirsty Boy (22/5/11)

Just to be certain - have you had other experienced tasters taste your beer and confirm that it actually is an infection? Not the same people who normally taste your beer - a different group. Peferably experienced judges or pro brewers. Its possible that its not an infection at all, but simply a brewing issue. Maybe fermentation or brewday related.

As an example (not as suggestion that this is actually the issue) .. Perhaps you have never had the experience of tasting acetaldehyde before, then you brew some beers that have that issue and it tastes like an infection to you. Then a brew or two work out properly, then another acetaldehyde brew. That sort of thing.

Infections generally... Get worse with time. So if your beers are detectably bad at the end of fermentation, you keg them and thats the way it stays, perhaps not infection.

Out of your next batch where you detect the issue - bottle a couple out of the keg once its carbed up. Then put one bottle in the fridge and another bottle in teh cupboard and leave them for a month. If its an infection, the one that has been warmer should have developed more off flavour than the one thats colder. Its a far from foolproof trial, but might help nail something donw a bit.

Definitely get yourself to a brewclub meeting where there is a room full of experienced brewers, or get your beer to some experienced tasters somehow - and see what they think. None of the beer infections you are likely to have is going to be so off the wall that someone at a club wont be able to identify it. If they cant name an infection... It probably isn't. If its a common brewing probem, they'll probably be able to spot that too.

Good luck - whatefer iot is I hope you knock it on the head.

TB


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## jimmysuperlative (22/5/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Just to be certain - have you had other experienced tasters taste your beer and confirm that it actually is an infection? Not the same people who normally taste your beer - a different group. Peferably experienced judges or pro brewers. Its possible that its not an infection at all, but simply a brewing issue. Maybe fermentation or brewday related.
> 
> As an example (not as suggestion that this is actually the issue) .. Perhaps you have never had the experience of tasting acetaldehyde before, then you brew some beers that have that issue and it tastes like an infection to you. Then a brew or two work out properly, then another acetaldehyde brew. That sort of thing.
> 
> ...



Thanks Thirsty ...I know the fight ain't over by a long shot ...and I'll do as you suggest with a few bottles. I've already considered acetaldehyde as a possible culprit.
As far as brewclubs and experienced tasters go, I'm not sure we have evolved and organised that far where I am? :unsure: It'd be great to have someone taste the product however ...someone who knows their stuff. I'd be happy to send a bottle to any willing victims er I mean volunteers?


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## manticle (22/5/11)

I have an infection that pops up every so often that I think must be related to flowering plants or other wild yeast. Similar to yours - beer looks OK but tastes odd - bread and grass is the best description, and the same flavour no matter what beer, hop or yeast.

To limit the chance your possible similar predator has of taking hold, try buying a brand new cube, sanitise it very well, no chill into it, then add a pack of dry yeast straight to the cube when cooled and ferment in there. Back the lid off a few turns so it doesn't swell/explode.


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## jimmysuperlative (22/5/11)

manticle said:


> I have an infection that pops up every so often that I think must be related to flowering plants or other wild yeast. Similar to yours - beer looks OK but tastes odd - bread and grass is the best description, and the same flavour no matter what beer, hop or yeast.
> 
> To limit the chance your possible similar predator has of taking hold, try buying a brand new cube, sanitise it very well, no chill into it, then add a pack of dry yeast straight to the cube when cooled and ferment in there. Back the lid off a few turns so it doesn't swell/explode.



manticle, cube fermenting is an option I've never investigated. Would help limit expose to nasties you'd have to think... could be messy with an active fermentation, but definitely worth a look in to.

Your infection description is the closest I've seen to my problem yet ..."same flavour no matter what beer, hop or yeast"... not sure about bread n grass though? Mine is more old oranges and something i just can put my finger on???

Cheers for the ideas :icon_cheers:


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## Brewman_ (22/5/11)

Some good advise. 
I like TB idea of getting somone else to verify and help identify your problem. It helps to know what you are fighting.

I have had this problem before. In my case it was an infected fermenter. But it took me 6 or so brews to work it out. 

You need to be very analytical. Go back to the most basic process, and try to brew a good beer. Work out when the infection takes hold, so taste the beer during ferement, and at bottling.

Then work from there until you find the probelm.

So What I suggest is number all your equipment, in sets. Like if you have 4 fermenters, make 4 sets, and number them. Then start brewing with a set at a time. This will help to identify equipment issued, and give you some management of the life of your equipment. Some people here will tell you that ypu plastic fermenter will last forever, not true.

You need to continue eliminating cuases until you get a good beer. 
PAIN was pourinjg many beers on the grass.

Fear


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## potof4x (22/5/11)

Have battled a similar run of good /bad brews for the last 2 years. Have been through the motions of new fermentors, better cleaners/sanitisers, different locations, so your story is def ringing a bell. Lately my beers have become more consistent. 
A couple things I have changed.

Was using an old freezer for ferment, till I found fermentor a couple degrees below set temp one day. Now using a fridge, suspect that freezer was cooling too much each cyle, and causing slow/stalled ferments, low attenuation and or letting infections compete with yeast. 

Have started boiling ferementors filled with napisan or PBW using an immersion element, rinsing with boiling water and then star san. This seems to have chased off some off flavours.

Also have started operating outside, instead of the kitchen.

My confidence is still shaky, but I keep trying to pay attention to the basics of immaculate sanitation and getting a good ferment. 

Def try get the opinion of a good brewer to see if they can pick the problem as suggested buy the guys above.


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## jimmysuperlative (22/5/11)

potof4x said:


> Have battled a similar run of good /bad brews for the last 2 years. Have been through the motions of new fermentors, better cleaners/sanitisers, different locations, so your story is def ringing a bell. Lately my beers have become more consistent.
> A couple things I have changed.
> 
> Was using an old freezer for ferment, till I found fermentor a couple degrees below set temp one day. Now using a fridge, suspect that freezer was cooling too much each cyle, and causing slow/stalled ferments, low attenuation and or letting infections compete with yeast.
> ...



pot, glad to hear you are getting it sorted. I hope to report back with good news of my own one day. 

I'm feeling better for starting this thread ... it's been good to hear from others who have had similar troubles and have won through. And to hear some "new ideas" about what to try/what to avoid. It's encouraging.  

fear_n_loath ...i have sacrificed more plastic fermenters on the altar of homebrew than I can count on two hands ...I wanted to go glass, but the next best option seemed to be a Better Bottle ...and mate, they're are friggin expensive, so I'm hoping it's not a fermenter problem!!!

Anyway, I have literally come home from the shops with a new fermenter, cleaned, sanitised and brewed in it ...and it's been a shitebrau! :angry:


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## felten (23/5/11)

I've had a similar problem as well, with the exact same off flavour in 3-4 batches but with a few good batches in between. It wasn't sour though, a very difficult flavour/aroma to describe, but one that I could pickup and found very unpleasant every time. It didn't cause hyperattenuation or bottle bombs so I was stumped. 

I tried changing what gear I could and using new methods but after tearing my hair out, ended up going back to basics. And so far I haven't had it in my last 3 batches (and 1 in the fermenter), so I'm just as stumped as to what it is I was before.

The only thing that I've really changed is my grains/hops, as I used them all up (and yeast too I guess); and switched to rain water for mashing instead of tap water, but I don't think either one was the culprit.



[edit]I picked up one of those better bottles while this was happening as well, they're great. But if you get a ported version it costs more to get the tap+lid parts than for a whole new fermenter, so I went with an unported version + lid so I could attach a blow off.


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## beerdrinkingbob (23/5/11)

I'll join the club of having something similar, my flavour was what i described as sickly sweetness, really hard to describe...

Anyway drove me nuts for some time, as it turns out it was something from the yeast and my lack of temp control!! I was trying to use ice bottles etc to keep it cool in the hotter months. think I stressed the little yeasties out with the temp up and down to the point they farted something really nasty h34r:

A bit of a tell was the bottles improved over 2 or 3 months as the yeast tried to clean up, does this happen with yours?


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## enoch (23/5/11)

Probably worth thinking through if the problem you have now is the same one you started with. You may have started with an infection and replaced it with a sanitiser or other process related flavour.
Also when you have brewed into two cubes and split the ferment do both taste funny? If it is an ingredient issue (I had funny tasting MO once) then both should have the problem.
I used to get a strange house flavour where the colour would darken, body increase and flavour get bland. Never tracked it down it just went away - assumed due to the dusty, mouldy, outbuilding I was brewing in at the time.


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## jimmysuperlative (23/5/11)

There are so many variables and that's what makes this problem sooooo frustrating. There doesn't seem to be any *clear* contributing factor ...that and the fact that the beers LOOK DELICIOUS!!! I haven't had gushers or exploding bottles or putrid smelling disasters, just this friggin annoying taste/flavour defect that only rears its ugly head occasionally??
I'll keep pluggin' away i suppose.

Still glad to know I'm not alone with it  

Cheers,

jimmy


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## jimmysuperlative (24/5/11)

enoch said:


> Probably worth thinking through if the problem you have now is the same one you started with. You may have started with an infection and replaced it with a sanitiser or other process related flavour.
> Also when you have brewed into two cubes and split the ferment do both taste funny? If it is an ingredient issue (I had funny tasting MO once) then both should have the problem.
> I used to get a strange house flavour where the colour would darken, body increase and flavour get bland. Never tracked it down it just went away - assumed due to the dusty, mouldy, outbuilding I was brewing in at the time.




I worried for a bit about my sanitiser spray bottle ...thought maybe somehow the water I mixed up my starsan with was hiding the infection. I ditched it for a new one, but it's made little difference. Even boiled the water before I mixed it up!

I'm leaning more to environmental influences. I'm thinking of an outdoor "brau tent" like Zwickel's Nano Brewery pics .


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## altstart (24/5/11)

When I first went A/G back in 05 I had a series of beers infected lost approx 900 litres. I pulled my system apart and changed so many items over a period of 9 months. When I found the problem I did not believe it was possible. I had an infection at the back of the S/S tap on the kettle I kicked myself at the number of times I had looked at the tap and dismissed it as the source because I boiled for 90 minutes. Since then without exception every tap in my system mash tun,kettle and the two on the fermenter get stripped cleaned and soaked in starsan then reassembled. This experience has made me very aware of how important sanitation is especially with A/G. Good luck and I hope you find your problem soon. 
Cheers Altstart


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## Tim F (24/5/11)

I'm no brewing master and you've probably already thought all this through but just in case it helps...

If you're getting an infection logically it has to be introduced to the wort at some point after the hot side of your kettle outlet. I'd be tempted to rule out anything that near boiling wort runs through if you aren't chilling as I'd assume even if it picks up something, it's not surviving hours of exposure to near boiling wort. If that's true the most likely point is while transferring to the fermenter, or while in the fermenter. So if there's something airborne when you're pouring to the fermenter from cube it could be that (that'd be my number one suspect) or the fermenter taps or lid/bung.

One possibility - go straight from the kettle to the sanitised fermenter. Let hot wort contact all parts of the fermenter just like nochilling but not using a cube. Then crack the lid just enough to pitch the yeast when it's cool. There'd only be a tiny window of opportunity for anything to get in then.

One other thing - you could try burning a candle next to your fermenter any time you open it to pitch, whatever - the updraft is meant to help keep bacteria/wild yeast away. Dunno how scientific that is though


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## jimmysuperlative (24/5/11)

altstart said:


> When I first went A/G back in 05 I had a series of beers infected lost approx 900 litres.




F.M.D. !!!!  ...900 litres!!!!!!! Mate, I salute the fact that you're still brewing. I think 900L of wasted effort would just about end me. Although, I'd be in the 300's by now I reckon.


Tim, I'd already thought about setting up my fermenter over my rambo burner (well above flame obviously) to get a scorched earth/air effect from the updraft! :blink:


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## [email protected] (24/5/11)

I always spray a bit of glen 20 in the air when i am doing anything after the boil and during fermentation, generally 5 to 10 mins before what ever it is i am going to, then seal that room up.

Hope you get rid off the problem.


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## DanRayner (24/5/11)

i had a mate who's star-san spray bottle had a star-san-resistant infection in it - so he innoculated every brew with this same infection everytime he thought he was sanitising.

Try doing like the pros do and clean with hot caustic & sterilise with oxonia - pH shock from theis combo kills pretty much everything

Plus, I'm not certain glad-wrap is the best at keeping beasties out, a rubberband if tight enough might mean that the pressure build up just finds another way out - like a hole in the gladwrap - and the you have a way in when the pressure drops off. But I'm biased, I like lids...


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## jimmysuperlative (25/5/11)

Good old glen20! Guess what's goin' on the shopping list! :lol: 


The first time I ever noticed the problems was a time when flood waters around the town had been lying stagnating for a few weeks. The air was putrid with the stench of rotting and decay ...I've always made the connection in my mind that maybe it was the "air" that started the infection and I've just been moving it around?

Good idea Beer4U, thanks ;-)


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## jimmysuperlative (25/5/11)

DanRayner said:


> i had a mate who's star-san spray bottle had a star-san-resistant infection in it .




Didn't want to hear that 


Where do you get oxonia from? first time I've ever heard of it??


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## altstart (25/5/11)

Tim F said:


> I'm no brewing master and you've probably already thought all this through but just in case it helps...
> 
> If you're getting an infection logically it has to be introduced to the wort at some point after the hot side of your kettle outlet. I'd be tempted to rule out anything that near boiling wort runs through if you aren't chilling as I'd assume even if it picks up something, it's not surviving hours of exposure to near boiling wort. If that's true the most likely point is while transferring to the fermenter, or while in the fermenter. So if there's something airborne when you're pouring to the fermenter from cube it could be that (that'd be my number one suspect) or the fermenter taps or lid/bung.
> 
> ...



I repeat it is possible to get a source of infection on the boiling wort side of the valve on the kettle and it will survive and infect for brew after brew. Back in 2005 Ross <Craftbrewer> who introduced me to A/G was involved along with other people on this forum in trying to find the source of this infection. When the source was found there was no mistaking the smell and physical evidence when I removed and stripped the tap. I purchased a new tap and it and all other taps are stripped, cleaned and sanitised for every brew.
Cheers Altstart


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## ekul (25/5/11)

Do you chill or nochill altstart?



altstart said:


> I repeat it is possible to get a source of infection on the boiling wort side of the valve on the kettle and it will survive and infect for brew after brew. Back in 2005 Ross <Craftbrewer> who introduced me to A/G was involved along with other people on this forum in trying to find the source of this infection. When the source was found there was no mistaking the smell and physical evidence when I removed and stripped the tap. I purchased a new tap and it and all other taps are stripped, cleaned and sanitised for every brew.
> Cheers Altstart


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## altstart (25/5/11)

ekul said:


> Do you chill or nochill altstart?


 
At the time I had this Problem I was brewing 60 litre batches and no chilling into a plastic fermenter. These days I brew 90 litre batches and no chill into a 110 litre S/S conical with no problems. I lost a brew about 5 months back through an infected yeast slant but apart from this one instance no more problems.

Cheers Altstart


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## Goofinder (25/5/11)

Umm... it's not "No Chilling" if you're just dumping it into a fermenter. That's just not chilling.


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## O'Henry (25/5/11)

jimmysuperlative said:


> Didn't want to hear that
> 
> 
> Where do you get oxonia from? first time I've ever heard of it??



Oxonia's active ingredient is Peracetic Acid (PAA). Might help you when looking for it.


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## Tim F (25/5/11)

Goofinder said:


> Umm... it's not "No Chilling" if you're just dumping it into a fermenter. That's just not chilling.



 
Only a homebrewer could make that distinction... "Its not *no *chilling its *not *chilling"
I dunno, it's practically the same thing except you can't keep it as long if you rack it into a container with headspace and not perfectly sealed.


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## Goofinder (25/5/11)

Yeah, but the point is that No Chilling is a defined process that involves not chilling in a sealed vessel with no/minimal headspace and contacting all surfaces with wort hot enough to kill most bugs. Running hot wort into a container, covering it up and waiting until it cools is not the same thing.

I've done both, and my usual No Chill vessel doesn't actually seal properly so I don't leave it that long and haven't had any problems. However if you're not following the 'official' No Chill method I reckon it's a place to start looking at - either actually chilling or doing 'official' No Chill.


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## altstart (25/5/11)

Goofinder said:


> Yeah, but the point is that No Chilling is a defined process that involves not chilling in a sealed vessel with no/minimal headspace and contacting all surfaces with wort hot enough to kill most bugs. Running hot wort into a container, covering it up and waiting until it cools is not the same thing.
> 
> I've done both, and my usual No Chill vessel doesn't actually seal properly so I don't leave it that long and haven't had any problems. However if you're not following the 'official' No Chill method I reckon it's a place to start looking at - either actually chilling or doing 'official' No Chill.



I have no problem with you doing it your way but me Ill do it my way. 
Cheers Altstart


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## manticle (26/5/11)

manticle said:


> I have an infection that pops up every so often that I think must be related to flowering plants or other wild yeast. Similar to yours - beer looks OK but tastes odd - bread and grass is the best description, and the same flavour no matter what beer, hop or yeast.
> 
> To limit the chance your possible similar predator has of taking hold, try buying a brand new cube, sanitise it very well, no chill into it, then add a pack of dry yeast straight to the cube when cooled and ferment in there. Back the lid off a few turns so it doesn't swell/explode.



Little bastard's popped its head up again in my ESB I brewed recently. Flavour is unmistakeable.

I'd love to nail it down. It's happened in Spring, Summer and Autumn. The cube it's in is fairly new and the last beer fermented in it (I ferment in my no chill cubes without transferring most of the time) came out spectacularly. I regularly use sodium met, cold rinse, boiling water rinse, followed by starsan. Everything is cleaned with boiling water and napisan and chlorine bleach is sometimes used prior to sodium met (which is then rinsed and rinsed again with boiling water). Scratching my head.

All taps cleaned and sanitised (fermenter and kettle) as are transfer hoses. Presumably some kind of wild yeast has infected my starter but no noticeable smell when I pitched. It's disappointing to say the least. I have plenty of other beer fermenting/conditioning etc but depressing nonetheless.

Hope you sort out your issue JS.


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## gone_fishing (26/5/11)

Wild yeast or "off" hops I would suggest.

Is it the same batch of hops or purchases of small amounts of different hops?

GF


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## manticle (26/5/11)

If you're asking me - different hops in most circumstances (different beers), different suppliers in some.

First happened in a pilsner a couple of years ago - has since happened with altbiers, english bitters and others.

I have also used the same hops (as in same packet) successfully in other beers.


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## gone_fishing (26/5/11)

Same hops worked well at first then "suddenly" strange taste?
Nasty hops do a good job at ruining good beer.
Wild yeast will do it too!!
GF
PS: Anyone else ever notice how an over-dose of the wrong type or stale hops can taste like wild yeast infection?


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## manticle (26/5/11)

No this has been going on for several years. 1 in 5 batches (or less) show this character, regardless of hops. Hops get used again, no issue. If I get the infected character, I chuck the fermenter/cube (only time I've had two in a row was trying to re-use).

Most of my hops are from ellerslie farm, this or last year's crop, kept in the freezer and used regularly. I'd bet my mash tun it's not the hops. I've had the same infection with home grown ones used a week after picking too.


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## gone_fishing (26/5/11)

Chill or no-chill?
GF


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## manticle (26/5/11)

Mainly no-chill but the first time it appeared was a chilled batch. I've also chilled and no chilled many a batch that come out great in between each one.

It's really hard to find a common point in each brew that's shown this. Equipment, sanitation, ingredients and even some methods have all been different.

Same premises though which leads me towards some micro-organism that lives around the place.


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## gone_fishing (26/5/11)

Do you ferment your no-chill the next morning or store for "a coupladays" before fermenting?
GF


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## DoctorBob (26/5/11)

jimmysuperlative said:


> I'm struggling with a recurring, persistent, frustrating beer quality problem which I believe is an infection in my beer.
> 
> I am losing almost 3 in 5 beers to an infection that presents as a sour/off aroma and stripped out hop flavour and aroma that leaves the beer with an increased or amplified bitterness.
> 
> ...



It sounds like exactly the problem I had. A year of kits / extrat went well then soon after I started AG problems just like yours stated.I tried allsorts, such as eliminating the use of a plate chiller that was number one suspect, cleaning everything, boiling everything, wasking everything in bleach. No improvement! 

With some advice from Ross at craftbrewer I finally tracked it to the outlet valve on the kettle. I had always assumed this would be ok as it would be hot enough to kill anything. WRONG! Despite washing and rinsing carefully when I finally got round to opening it up there were things growing in it!! I would recommend stripping your kettle valve every batch. I clean my ss kettle with PBW every bx, then rinse with v dilute phosphoric acid too (1.5ml in a litre of water), just to ensure the metal is repassivated. I then dismantle the valve and clean with a mini bottle brush. I also clean the pick up on my kettle this way. 

I also found that you can split the plastic valves that screw into the outlet of plastic fermenters. Just grab the tap with some pliers, and the valve will come apart. I had some mild growth in there also. I now do this every batch, and have had no problems since. 

Good Luck


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## gone_fishing (26/5/11)

Do you clean your boiler tap?

Pediococcus sp. are reasonably heat resistant. It is possible it is your boiler tap.

GF

EDIT: Or your mash tun/false bottom/taps


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## manticle (26/5/11)

gone_fishing said:


> Do you ferment your no-chill the next morning or store for "a coupladays" before fermenting?
> GF



Almost every one is pitched the next day (in the morning before work).

Ocassionally if a starter hasn't taken off, I've take some extra days but again there's no link - most of those take off uninfected.

Boiler tap is removed after every brew, cleaned with sodium percarb and boiling water, rinsed and sanitised.

Mash tun is a copper manifold which gets pulled apart each brew and tun often gets a sodium percarb dose and some starsan.

Again, if it was the tap or tun or whatever, I would expect the infection in every brew, not 1 in 5 or 10.

Doesn't peddicoccus taste a bit like poo?

The flavour of my infection is bread and grass.


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## gone_fishing (26/5/11)

Ah, bread and grass.

Bread from dry yeast.

Grass from over-judicial use of hops.

RU making the same recipe each time or drawing conclusions from several different recipes?

GF


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## altstart (26/5/11)

Doctor Bob said:


> It sounds like exactly the problem I had. A year of kits / extrat went well then soon after I started AG problems just like yours stated.I tried allsorts, such as eliminating the use of a plate chiller that was number one suspect, cleaning everything, boiling everything, wasking everything in bleach. No improvement!
> 
> With some advice from Ross at craftbrewer I finally tracked it to the outlet valve on the kettle. I had always assumed this would be ok as it would be hot enough to kill anything. WRONG! Despite washing and rinsing carefully when I finally got round to opening it up there were things growing in it!! I would recommend stripping your kettle valve every batch. I clean my ss kettle with PBW every bx, then rinse with v dilute phosphoric acid too (1.5ml in a litre of water), just to ensure the metal is repassivated. I then dismantle the valve and clean with a mini bottle brush. I also clean the pick up on my kettle this way.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with this it demonstrates that the valve on the kettle needs to be stripped every batch. It is so easy to believe that boiling wort in the kettle is hot enough to sterilise the valve when in fact it wont and if you are unfortunate to have this take hold in your system it will infect batch after batch.
Cheers Altstart


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## Tim F (26/5/11)

Goofinder said:


> Yeah, but the point is that No Chilling is a defined process that involves not chilling in a sealed vessel with no/minimal headspace and contacting all surfaces with wort hot enough to kill most bugs. Running hot wort into a container, covering it up and waiting until it cools is not the same thing.


I 'no chill' a standard batch into a 30L cube, seal with the lid, get hot wort on all surfaces, cool overnight then aerate by shaking, pitch, replace lid with gladwrap and ferment in the cube. Workin for me so far


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## manticle (26/5/11)

I rarely use dry yeast. US-5 is the only dry yeast I use and I don't use it often. My regular beer that uses a USyeast uses 1272 more often.

I'm not a fan of overhopped beer.

I can tell the difference.

This has happened when making successful recipes (as in previously successfully made recipes by me on the same equipment with the same methods) again exactly the same way


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## gone_fishing (26/5/11)

Manticle,

I would suggest sealing your system (ie no exposure to air prior to ferment). I would also suggest having another go at "chilling" your beer as you report only one infection with chilling and numerous with no-chill. Good chance you have a heat resistant "bug" harbouring in your cubes.
gf


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## manticle (26/5/11)

gone_fishing said:


> Manticle,
> 
> I would suggest sealing your system (ie no exposure to air prior to ferment). I would also suggest having another go at "chilling" your beer as you report only one infection with chilling and numerous with no-chill. Good chance you have a heat resistant "bug" harbouring in your cubes.
> gf



GF: I wish it were that simple. It's happened with more than one chilled beer -it's just that the first time it appeared the beer was chilled.

I throw away any cube that exhibits this infection so any heat resistant bug should be thrown away with it. I also sanitise my cubes the same way I sanitise anything else. I don't just rely on boiling wort to do it.

I do have plans to chill a few to compare variations in aroma and bitterness. The problem is though that because it might be one in five or one in eight or one in ten brews that exhibits this character, a change in method doesn't prove much. If I had access to a lab to test the microorganisms, I could then test my equipment and maybe home surfaces and get an understanding of where it might be living. I'm even careful to add chlorine to each infected cube/fermenter before tipping it out to try and reduce the numbers I'm 'releasing into the wild'.

As for reducing the air - I often ferment directly in the no chill cube to cut down the risk of infection due to transfer.


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## Tim F (26/5/11)

Maybe that's the answer - finding a lab (or a uni student) who will do some analysis. might be easier and cheaper than you think to line up?


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## manticle (26/5/11)

I'll bottle one from this latest batch and see if I can.


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## jimmysuperlative (26/5/11)

manticle said:


> If I had access to a lab to test the microorganisms, I could then test my equipment and maybe home surfaces and get an understanding of where it might be living.




manticle, this is so what I want to do ...to identify the bug and know what i'm dealing with. Does anyone know who does this sort of stuff?


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## [email protected] (26/5/11)

The bread and grass flavour is familiar to me recently, my first infected bottles.

APA, 1272 yeast, about 30 bottles worth, they were all really good youngish, except about last 5 bottles.

My bottle fridge is actually an old freezer and when running as a fridge sometimes drops a bit of water here and there.
The ones that were not right, had a bit of rust starting to form up under the cap.

The thing is, they poured the same as the good ones, same carbonation, still looked same, smell was pretty much the same, some
difference i thought was just age, but upon tasting, i got grass in a big way and old bread. Not drinkable at all.

Needless to say i chucked those bottles.


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## yum beer (27/5/11)

The problem with infections is they start as a microscopic bit of crap that normally doesnt grow till it finds itself in the right temp zone....
normally 16-21c....dead smack in ferment range.
If you have a tiny bit of muck anywhere in your system...even in boiling vessels and it gets into the FV, you will get an infection...
also with the mouse plague on at the moment there is a lot of mouse 'germs' in the air.....Ive lost 4 batches in a row made in the garage...
now brewing in the kitchen and no problems since.

The Glen 20 idea is probably a good one.
Anyway..just a thought.
Best of luck to everybody sorting out your problems...nothing worse than throwing out beer.


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## Brewman_ (27/5/11)

Just another thought..

Not saying this is the solution, but I have had not one infection since doing this extra step, in addition to the other items I mentioned earlier in this post.

For some reason, no idea why I used to make up a 2L cleaning mix of water and Pink Stain to clean my gear and fermenter in the fermenter. I think I was trying to save money by using less pink stain.

After getting all new fermenters, over 2 years ago, what I do now is clean the fermenter with fresh water and a clean rag. Rinse all other gear to remove trub. Then place a clean tap / plug into the fermenter and toss all of the dirty brewing gear in except any SS, with plastic tap disassembled and lid seal ring out, and in the fermenter. I then add half a table spoon of Pink stain and completely fill the fermenter, and normally leave overnight - mainly because I finish late and don't want to wait around to rinse. Give the whole thing a good shake, and the pink stain solution will cover everything. You could leave it for less time, and could use another cleaner too.

Maybe everyone does this already? But I didn't. My old fermenters used to have some brown striping on them where the cleaner had cleaned and missed spots. Now they are completely white with no stains and no infections. So far so good.

Edit, spelling

Fear_n_Loath


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## davewaldo (27/5/11)

Has anybody mentioned a wort stability test? I was listening to a BBR podcast with David Logsdon from wyeast and he mentioned this test as a good way to track down infections. 

A helpful test to help identify at what stage infection is appearing is the wort stability test. Essentially you just take a sample of wort at one stage of your process and place it in a very well sanitised container (ie flask) and seal it up. If there is an infection it will show its ugly head, if the wort stays fresh for 3-4 days the wort was healthy at that stage of your process. You don't add yeast so the infection should take hold quite easily if there is one.

So people trying to track down where infections are coming from could take one sample of hot wort, then another after chilling. Or if no chilling, one sample from kettle and another fresh from the cube at pitching time.

If all of these prove to be uncontaminated the infection must be occurring in the fermenter. 

I thought this was a very good idea and a simple way of telling if you have infections that may be subtle and hard to identify in a fermented beer.

Good luck!

Dave.


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## [email protected] (28/5/11)

davewaldo said:


> Has anybody mentioned a wort stability test? I was listening to a BBR podcast with David Logsdon from wyeast and he mentioned this test as a good way to track down infections.
> 
> A helpful test to help identify at what stage infection is appearing is the wort stability test. Essentially you just take a sample of wort at one stage of your process and place it in a very well sanitised container (ie flask) and seal it up. If there is an infection it will show its ugly head, if the wort stays fresh for 3-4 days the wort was healthy at that stage of your process. You don't add yeast so the infection should take hold quite easily if there is one.
> 
> ...



This is such a simple logical idea. Good stuff Dave and Dave....

I have not had a problem with infections, except the thing with a few bottles as mentioned above.

But, just out of interest i thought id take a small amount of chilled wort and seal it up in very well santized jar.
The jar is alredy very clean, it already gets used for finnings and priming.
I boiled it, then star san, then rinsed in boiling water twice.
When it was cool i opened briefly and put a small amount of wort in.
Im just going to let sit by the computer and see how long it takes for it to spoil.


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## jimmysuperlative (7/6/11)

jimmysuperlative said:


> That's where I'm up to, red. Got a batch at a mates in his gear on the go ...so it's wait and see. I just handed him the cube full of fresh wort, didn't even go with him to his place ...so i hope it goes good for him. Although, because my results can be hit and miss anyway, I'm not sure what it can really tell me if it ends up a good beer. It would be a better result for me if the beer was shite, at least that puts the problem at pre-fermenter?
> 
> I appreciate your thoughts. :icon_cheers:





Results from mates fermenter suggest the trouble is at my end ...beer at his end was as it should be, close to style and wonderful malt & hop taste and aroma. Maybe it tells me that the problem is after the kettle and cube at least? Anyway, it's good to know I can produce a decent beer. Just wish it was sitting in my fridge


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## eamonnfoley (7/6/11)

You would think it is least likely that an infection could take hold as late as the bottling/kegging stage - but I've experienced something similar myself in the past. Beer is tasting great out of the fermenter - and goes downhill immediately once packaged, despite which keg, or in bottle etc. But it isn't a obvious infection (not sour at all), its more of a rough bitterness and "sameness", regardless of the recipe. Like the malt and hop character is stripped away. 

Good luck. Its a tough problem - I never knew exactly what it was or how I got over it. No taster could identify it (everyone said it wasnt an infection). I reckon tap water PH, chlorine etc, and the effectiveness of sanitiser when mixed with it has something to do with it. For example my starsan mix always has an odour, despite people claiming it should be odourless. I now mix sanitisers with RO water, or at least filtered water.


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## jimmysuperlative (7/6/11)

foles said:


> ... But it isn't a obvious infection (not sour at all), its more of a rough bitterness and "sameness", regardless of the recipe. Like the malt and hop character is stripped away...




foles! That's exactly the problem I have to greater and lesser degrees! I'm looking at all (an any) possible causes and "quality control" of water used in mixing sanitisers just became another issue to address. I'm glad you posted!


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## jimmysuperlative (1/11/11)

So, latest batch is a Punk IPA no-chilled about 2 months ago. No obvious infection with cube going into fermenter. Pitched ale yeast and fermented at 20C for 7 days. Transferred to secondary and currently dry hopping. Not patting myself on the back just yet, but it's looking promising.

I didn't use starsan (due to concerns about its effectiveness in high pH water -supply is @ 7 ...and I couldn't guarantee the B&G bottled spring water I had was any better) and instead used bottled water and iodophor.

I also gave all gear a bleach/vinegar soak @ no-rinse ratio of 30/30ml to 20L of water.

At transfer to secondary, beer smells and tastes spot on! No off flavours or aromas! Touch wood! ;-)

So, early days, but could the faults in my brews be the result of an ineffective starsan mix? Could my town water supply be a cause of infection? I would of thought the starsan would wipe out any bug if was in the water to begin with?

Anyway, it was after reading about starsan's limits in high pH water that I had this revelation ...I'd changed up the sanitising regime before, but had always used a spray bottle of starsan made up on tap water to use. I dunno, but maybe I've been "sanitising" without actually using viable starsan???

I'll see how this IPA turns out.


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## felten (1/11/11)

pH 7 is neutral?

Never heard about starsan being ineffective like that TBH, but if I was concerned I would email fivestar with a water report and see what they say.


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## TasChris (1/11/11)

Not wanting to be a kill joy but trying to detect where an infection source is by taste is not necassarily that accurate. 
An infection source could be right at the start of the process but the taste only becomes noticeable some time and distance down the track.

I do a couple of things to help minimise any infections, most are pretty obvious stuff that we all do

Rotate through a couple of different sanitisers, i use four different ones from time to time
Take every thing apart after each batch, 
Special attention to fermenter taps, kettle taps, o rings on fermenters and kegs, dip tubes, in and out posts on kegs, grommets, around and under o ring on keg lid.
Crush no where near fermentation area
Don't use the kitchen for any part of brewing, especially yeast starters ( due to the wife and being the most infected room in the house, toilet included)
Regularly clean fridge, drops of condensation off the fridge ceiling can and will drip into air lock and glad wrap. Hose fridge out and spray inside with exit mold and Glen 20 then starsan and let dry.
Regularly replace taps, hoses and fermenters, o rings, grommets, airlocks especially if cracked, stained or scratched.
Run boiling wort through kettle tap for a few minutes mid boil ( dunno if this helps or hinders)
Boil all water involved with brewing, as I am on tank water, including spray bottle water.
Cover any open fementaion vessels with a clean sanitised soaked towel when filling, racking etc
Minimise exposure to wind while brewing.
Pressure wash kettle every now and then 
Wash hands regularly during brew day as I know where they have been

Perhaps try brewing on days when it is raining as less dust etc in the air. This would mean I could only brew on 320 days per year. LOL

All I can think of at the moment
Cheers
Chris


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## loikar (1/11/11)

Iv'e recently had a few batches of infected brews that sounds similar to what you describe jimmy.
I live in a semi-rural area which is surrounded by paddocks as well as housing estates going up and not far from the ocean, as well as it being quite windy.

I nuked everything in bleach after the first bout and then made 3 good batches, followed by another infection.
I have no doubt it was airborne due to making my sanitation process excessive (as in submerging everything in a 60L bin of sanitiser and covering my mouth with a dust mask when transferring into the fermenter, pitching, dry hopping etc)

I now slow chill in a 23L Jerry that sits in the 60L sanitiser bin with blocks of ice and ferment in the same jerry.

This means the only exposure to the air is when i'm pitching my yeast and dry hopping (I still wear a dust mask just in case any mouth funk gets in).
And the exposure to the elements when doing this is limited by the small opening in the Jerry.

Have made 3 brews since moving to slow-chill and all have been good. Threw away my old fermenters last weekend.

So I would suggest:
Boil
whirlpool hot
dump into jerry, squeeze and seal
drop jerry into chilled water (isomerisation of hops doesn't occur under 75c apparently so you can still keep all your hop additions, but i'm still testing this)
When your ready, open jerry after a spray of Glen20 and pitch yeast.
Ferment out
transfer into keg
carb it up
drink it
repeat​
This seems to be working for me.

HTH

BF


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## loikar (1/11/11)

Another thing I should add is; Make a yeast starter. 
Reducing your lag time between pitching and the yeast taking command in your brew is also beneficial.


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## jimmysuperlative (1/11/11)

All great posts thanks lads ...and this is not a recent phenomenon for me so I've probably acted on most of the advice given already ...but I was asking questions of my starsan mix, because of some reading I did that suggested that it loses is potency after a pH of about 3 or 4??? I wondered then, if my tap water is always 7+ how I could possibly have an effective sanitiser to begin with ...let alone one that will last for any period of time???

What is everyone else doing for the mix water? I will definitely flick 5 Star Chemicals an email.

Thanks again,

Jimmy


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## stl (1/11/11)

jimmysuperlative said:


> All great posts thanks lads ...and this is not a recent phenomenon for me so I've probably acted on most of the advice given already ...but I was asking questions of my starsan mix, because of some reading I did that suggested that it loses is potency after a pH of about 3 or 4??? I wondered then, if my tap water is always 7+ how I could possibly have an effective sanitiser to begin with ...let alone one that will last for any period of time???



Even if it seems you are only adding a few drops of StarSan to a whole bunch of water, it should drop the pH of the solution well below 7...


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## [email protected] (1/11/11)

jimmysuperlative said:


> All great posts thanks lads ...and this is not a recent phenomenon for me so I've probably acted on most of the advice given already ...but I was asking questions of my starsan mix, because of some reading I did that suggested that it loses is potency after a pH of about 3 or 4??? I wondered then, if my tap water is always 7+ how I could possibly have an effective sanitiser to begin with ...let alone one that will last for any period of time???
> 
> What is everyone else doing for the mix water? I will definitely flick 5 Star Chemicals an email.
> 
> ...



I remember from the basic brewing radio episode about starsan and bleach/vinegar mix, the maker says that it will last a lot longer = months if you mix with distilled water as it has no salts/mineral to buffer the phos acid of which starsan is mostly.

I use filtered and boiled rainwater pretty much the same as using distilled water.


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