# Jamil Does Arrogant Bastard



## joecast (28/8/09)

heads up for any brewing network fans 

This week on Can You Brew It Jamil and Tasty are faced with one of their toughest challenges yet: Arrogant Bastard from Stone Brewing Company. Stone has been hush hush about this recipe for years now, and while many clone recipes have been circulated around the web, our crew found all of them to be lacking. In this attempt, we get as much help as possible from Brewmaster Mitch Steele, without violating Stone's privacy on this beer. But the rest is left up to our experts. Tune in and find out if the boys were able to get it right.

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/548

thats 8:30am Saturday in the east. I will definitely be getting my chores done tonight so i can have some time free to listen in live.
joe


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## Maple (28/8/09)

joecast said:


> heads up for any brewing network fans
> 
> This week on Can You Brew It Jamil and Tasty are faced with one of their toughest challenges yet: Arrogant Bastard from Stone Brewing Company. Stone has been hush hush about this recipe for years now, and while many clone recipes have been circulated around the web, our crew found all of them to be lacking. In this attempt, we get as much help as possible from Brewmaster Mitch Steele, without violating Stone's privacy on this beer. But the rest is left up to our experts. Tune in and find out if the boys were able to get it right.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads-up on this Joe! may give the live feed a go..


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## brettprevans (28/8/09)

Give it a go Maple and when your done doing the hard work, post up the recipe for all us lazy bastards


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## joecast (28/8/09)

if i listen live, i'll post it cm2.


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## Maple (28/8/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> Give it a go Maple and when your done doing the hard work, post up the recipe for all us lazy bastards


lazy...I think you'll be quite busy on Sat...relocation etc...


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## joecast (28/8/09)

just for fun (and potential embarrassment) i thought i would post a recipe i did about two years ago. overall i thought the flavor was pretty good. fg was about 1.020 which made it a bit too sweet and masked some of the bitterness. if i could get it to drop abour 4 or 5 more point i think it would have been pretty close. yeast was US05 iirc. any others out there...

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 22.00 Wort Size (L): 22.00
Total Grain (kg): 5.90
Anticipated OG: 1.077 Plato: 18.68
Anticipated SRM: 18.0
Anticipated IBU: 76.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 28.39 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.060 SG 14.69 Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.8 3.00 kg. Generic DME - Light Generic 1.046 8
33.9 2.00 kg. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.038 3
8.5 0.50 kg. Weyermann Wheat Dark Germany 1.039 8
3.4 0.20 kg. Crystal 150L Great Britain 1.033 150
3.4 0.20 kg. Weyermann Caraaroma Germany 1.034 178

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. Chinook Pellet 12.00 47.4 60 min.
20.00 g. Chinook Pellet 12.00 24.0 40 min.
20.00 g. Chinook Pellet 12.00 5.3 5 min.


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## Weizguy (28/8/09)

Thanks Joe, for keeping your finger on the pulse.

I will be doing my best to tune in.

I recently tasted my clone vs an imported Arrogant. The import had more body and slickness, with a lingering toffee flavour that mine was missing. My beer was more sessionable, IMHO.

Maybe its the American crystals, I was thinking.


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## Kleiny (28/8/09)

Ive been catching the live feeds from the BN for a while.

Its good to see them in the video cast and the live chat is ROFL.

So catch it if you can


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## Jez (28/8/09)

Les the Weizguy said:


> .... an imported Arrogant....



Did you find somewhere over here to buy it Lez?


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## Fourstar (28/8/09)

Wow, awesome!

I'd tune in, if i wasn't in Vietnam atm <_< 

wait... why the <_< Ive got Uber cheap beer to keep me happy!  

Looks like i will be downloading the podcast as soon as i get back to the nanny state!

Cheers.


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## Jimmeh (31/8/09)

They did not clone this recipe, but was very close for a first go. They suggested some changes which i'll list after the original recipe. I think there will be another show on this.

~23L batch
70% eff
og 1071
fg 1013
90min boil
80ibu rager
colour: ~27srm
yeast: WLP007 or WY1098
mash @ 65degC
80%AA

6.35kg pale/2-row
0.50kg Crystal 150 (UK)
0.25kg Crystal 15 (US)
0.25kg Crystal 40 (US)
0.25kg Crystal 80 (US)
0.15kg Chocolate (US)

28g Chinook @ 85
14g Chinook @ 45
14g Chinook @ 15
14g Chinook @ 0

*Suggest changes by Jamil:*
- reduce 85min addition (shoot for 70-75ibu rager total)
- halve the chocolate to 75g (shooting for ~21srm) or possibly eliminate the chocolate
- Reduce the Crystal 150 to 400g and all others to 200g
- reduce the base malt to get 7.2%abv (the original recipe came to 7.7)
- double the flameout addition to 28g
- mash @ 64
- ferment @ 20-21


Cheers guys
Let me know if ive stuffed something up!


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## jayse (31/8/09)

at first glance without ever tasting said bastard that recipe even with the changes looks like way to much crystal and bugger all hops.


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## Darren (31/8/09)

jayse said:


> at first glance without ever tasting said bastard that recipe even with the changes looks like way to much crystal and bugger all hops.




Ditto


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## Jimmeh (31/8/09)

the Americans loooveee Crystal and Dextrin malts thats for sure


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## Fourstar (31/8/09)

I know what i'll be berewing when i get back to local soil!


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## beers (31/8/09)

Jimmeh said:


> They did not clone this recipe



Ah damn it... where was the spoiler alert?..


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## Jimmeh (31/8/09)

beers said:


> Ah damn it... where was the spoiler alert?..




woops sorry bud B)


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## Sammus (31/8/09)

joecast said:


> if i could get it to drop abour 4 or 5 more point i think it would have been pretty close.


You know white sugar or dex has a place in brewing outside of kit newbies and belgian beers 




Les the Weizguy said:


> Thanks Joe, for keeping your finger on the pulse.
> 
> I will be doing my best to tune in.
> 
> ...



Les - could it be the colour of the crystals you were using? or you were already using the darkest crystal available?


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## joecast (1/9/09)

Jimmeh said:


> *Suggest changes by Jamil:*
> - reduce 85min addition (shoot for 70-75ibu rager total)
> - halve the chocolate to 75g (shooting for ~21srm) or possibly eliminate the chocolate
> - Reduce the Crystal 150 to 400g and all others to 200g
> ...


thanks for posting the recipe jimmeh. in the end i had to head out saturday morning so havent listened to the show yet.

after looking at their attempt, im not surprised it wasnt cloned. looks pretty 'basic' with just a bunch of crystal and a bit of chocolate. would love to hear how their second attempt goes if they do one. until then, id probably stick with something closer to what i tried. 

sammus, i would be the last person to look down on using sugar in a brew. that attempt was my first for this style of beer and even with my second i would probably try other things to bring down the FG before resorting to sugar. the problem was more with my brewing practice than ingredients. plenty of room for improvement there trust me  
joe


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## kevo (2/9/09)

I think I enjoyed listening to this CYBI episode more than any of the others. 

I know the brewer makes a big difference to the product, but if you are given the recipe, as they have been on every other episode, any decent brewer should be able to knock out a great version of it.

I thought this episode was great as it was the two brewers genuinely trying to work out what went in with almost no help at all. Listening to their reasoning for ingredients and subsequent changes was really interesting and i'm looking forward to seeing how they progress.

It would make sense to me though, having two brewers like Jamil and McDole, to have each of them brewing just slightly different recipes at the same time, rather than one batch at a time by one brewer. 

Could become a very long process - and perhaps not that great to listen to. But I'm keen to find out how to make it.

Kev


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## razz (17/2/11)

Picking up on an old thread that I would like to update. Back in November Tasty McDole did another AB clone for the BN crew. I've listened to it a couple of times over and will give Tasty's new version a try. Typing this on a mac and Brewsmith is on the PC so I'll just type in the recipe.
SG 1.066
TG Not given
IBU 94.8
SRM 22.5
Sach rest 65 degrees, nor sure about length.
90% Pale malt. 
10% Spec B. Dingeman's
90 min boil
85 mins 24 gms Chinook pellet hops
45 mins 24 gms Chinook pellet hops
15 mins 24 gms Chinook pellet hops
0 mins 24 gms Chinook pellet hops
Yeast WLP002 English Ale
The BN crew mostly agreed that Tasty's version is in fact a clone.

I'm going to change a couple of things to suit my set up and suppliers.
Yeast will be 1028 London ESB (the equivalent of whitelabs??)
I'm doing a 40 lt brew length so I will up the hop amounts to get approx. 95 IBU, the additions will be timed the same.
Now I do like hoppy beers, but this one may test my threshold level.
A couple of things I would like to ask my fellow AHB'ers.
1. I can use british malt or JW traditional ale malt, I'm thinking british to give plenty of malt to support the hops.
2. Given the bitterness level of this ale should I aim for a fermentable wort or more on the dextrinous side of fermentability? I can vary the temp and time through a HERMS.
Cheers.


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## DUANNE (17/2/11)

i did an attempt at this not long ago and came very close to the original beer, i missed my gravity and it was a bit lighter in character but still very good.
im pretty sure the yeast was wlp 007 wich im led to believe is an equivelent strain to wy1098 british ale. best of luck it really is a nice beer.


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## razz (17/2/11)

BEERHOG said:


> i did an attempt at this not long ago and came very close to the original beer, i missed my gravity and it was a bit lighter in character but still very good.
> im pretty sure the yeast was wlp 007 wich im led to believe is an equivelent strain to wy1098 british ale. best of luck it really is a nice beer.


Shit! back to the podcast, I thought they said WLP002. 
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure! :lol:


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## mika (17/2/11)

WLP007 is what they said on the podcast.
I've been tempted to make this beer, but having tried it recently (as a grey import) I really didn't think it was that bitter. Maybe it didn't travel well, but seemed to be quite malt forward. In that instance, I might lean more towards the british malt, but then I haven't played much with Spec B. Perhaps a 50/50 mix of english and Aus. malt would be a good approach and refine it from there.

Be interested to hear from others who have tried the beer fresh about how bitter it really is.


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## Sydneybrewer (17/2/11)

i currently have one of these clones in my plans also, so i will be watching this thread with interest, have not done a beer this high a gravity with BIAB before so still deciding how i should approach it and whether or not to back it up with some DME


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## mika (18/2/11)

1066 is up there, but not to the point where you need to start worrying about substituting sugar for malt to make sure you get the attenuation. Just mash a tad lower and a big healthy pitch of yeast with some oxygen and it should attenuate out OK. 98IBU's should go a long way to hiding a small lack of attenuation anyway.


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## Supra-Jim (18/2/11)

Hi Razz,

I've been keen to brew this one for a while. About 2yrs ago there was an article in BYO about Stone Brewery and they included some recipes (Arrogant Bastard being one of them). From memory (I'm at work and the mag is at home), the base malt for the recipe provided in the mag was Marris Otter.

Not a definitive answer to your question, I know, hopefully it helps somewhat.

Cheers SJ

(I have a good pile of Chinook at the moment and this seems to be a good excuse to use it!!)


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## razz (18/2/11)

Good morning Supra-Jim. I've got the mag in front of me, it has six recipes from Stone and none of them are AB. Interestingly, all six recommend WLP002 or WLP005. I will use the 1028 as it's already smacked. Get brewing SJ and perhaps we can do a swap in a few months.


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## geoff_tewierik (18/2/11)

What month/year was the BYO mag? Should be on my shelf, I hope.


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## razz (18/2/11)

It's dec 2008 geoff, it has the three guys from Stone brewing on the front cover.


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## razz (18/2/11)

mika said:


> WLP007 is what they said on the podcast.
> I've been tempted to make this beer, but having tried it recently (as a grey import) I really didn't think it was that bitter. Maybe it didn't travel well, but seemed to be quite malt forward. In that instance, I might lean more towards the british malt, but then I haven't played much with Spec B. Perhaps a 50/50 mix of english and Aus. malt would be a good approach and refine it from there.
> 
> Be interested to hear from others who have tried the beer fresh about how bitter it really is.


Okay, I've realised my stuff up with the yeast. Mika is spot on, the podcast says WLP007. I miss read the comparison chart at Mr Malty when I checked for the equivalent in wyeast. When I got to G&G I picked up London Ale instead of London ESB. The upshot is, no one knows what Stone brewing use and I'll give 1028 a crack.


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## Supra-Jim (18/2/11)

Whoops, sorry Razz, I was sure there was an AB recipe, bugger!

(Did I at least get the bit about Marris Otter right for the other recipes, or should I give up now?)

Cheers SJ

(Moved house 2 weeks ago so hopefully I can start unpacking the brewery this weekend and getting the workshop set up and ready to brew soon!)


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## razz (18/2/11)

It just refers to 2-row pale malt for all the recipes SJ, perhaps there is another article from an earlier BYO you're thinking of?


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## Supra-Jim (18/2/11)

I dunno Razz, I think I should probably just shut up now  

Looking back I have brewed Ross' Ruination clone ( http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/brewing-pages.asp?NewsID=21 )and that was def with Marris Otter. I dunno where I got the other ideas about the Stone recipes.

Cheers SJ


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## mika (18/2/11)

Did the BYO 'Stone' article have Ruination ? I only recently discovered how awesome this beer is. I've probably got the mag here, but would have to sift thru a pile of junk to find it.
Or, how close is the craftbrewer recipe ?


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## Supra-Jim (18/2/11)

Going from my previous hit-rate, I won't hazard a guess at whether Ruination is included or not (I think it may be). I have not tried the original, however I can say that Ross' recipe produces a very tasty drink! :icon_drool2: 

I will try and find my mag tonight.

Cheers SJ


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## razz (18/2/11)

mika said:


> Did the BYO 'Stone' article have Ruination ? I only recently discovered how awesome this beer is. I've probably got the mag here, but would have to sift thru a pile of junk to find it.
> Or, how close is the craftbrewer recipe ?


Yes it does Mika. A little different to the Craftbrewer version, but pretty close.


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## mika (18/2/11)

Hmm.. time to go filing thru a bunch of old BYO mags, I really need to get organised


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## razz (27/2/11)

Just a quick update on where my AB clone is at. I brewed on Friday morning, pitched the dregs of 1 lt starter into a 3 lt starter then those dregs into 2 lts of wort (if that makes sense) The wort has gone nuts! In 48 hours it has gone from SG 1.068 to 1.029 and krausened some time during the night. Before I went to bed I had to clean the top and sides of the fermenter. I can only guess that it took off because I used oxygen for the first time. I was concerned, at pitching, that I may not have used enough O2 but that is clearly not the case. I did use the wyeast yeast calculator to make sure i did not over pitch. The sample I took today is very bitter/sweet, more so than yesterday's sample. I've not used Chinook at these amounts before so I'm guessing that the sweet flavour may be the hops. For those that are interested the recipe is here.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry744999


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## mika (27/2/11)

Keep us updated on how this balances out, keen to give it a go of it comes thru hoppy enough.


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## razz (2/3/11)

razz said:


> Just a quick update on where my AB clone is at. I brewed on Friday morning, pitched the dregs of 1 lt starter into a 3 lt starter then those dregs into 2 lts of wort (if that makes sense) The wort has gone nuts! In 48 hours it has gone from SG 1.068 to 1.029 and krausened some time during the night. Before I went to bed I had to clean the top and sides of the fermenter. I can only guess that it took off because I used oxygen for the first time. I was concerned, at pitching, that I may not have used enough O2 but that is clearly not the case. I did use the wyeast yeast calculator to make sure i did not over pitch. The sample I took today is very bitter/sweet, more so than yesterday's sample. I've not used Chinook at these amounts before so I'm guessing that the sweet flavour may be the hops. For those that are interested the recipe is here.
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry744999



Edit. Why did my pic get lazy and fall over?


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## razz (10/3/11)

For all those that are interested, Mika, Sydneybrewer and Supra-Jim, it's in the kegs. I tasted the remnants from the filter, for research purposes of course. It is a bitter bastard!!! :icon_drool2: Perhaps I'll rename it. I can't keep calling it a clone as it's a bit light on for colour, who knows about the other specs. I Ross'd the kegs so I can have a little taste tonight if I feel game. 
Supra-Jim, if you do the next swap I'll bring you a bottle, now get brewing on your version! :beerbang:


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## OneEye (17/11/11)

How did you go with this razz? I just litened to the show the other night and am keen to give this a crack. Was in San Diego in August and went to the brewery... the beer garden they have there is unbelievable...also some of the best food and beer pairings I've ever had. Can't wait to see if I can get a close version of AB to show my friends and family what I've been talking about these past few months!


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## razz (17/11/11)

The hop aroma has held up surprisingly well for this long in the keg and the malt has dominated the hops in the flavour profile. About four weeks ago the first keg ran out and the second keg tasted quite fresh. I was impressed with how nice it was drinking after only four weeks in the keg, the hop bitterness was a lot like Punk IPA. I really want to brew this again but there are others on the list, Sierra Nevada Bigfoot or another from Stone. I'm envious of you getting to the brewery moosebeer, any pics?
PS. I did get a huge hop haze from the dry hopping.


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## mongey (12/4/19)

kicking up an old thread thread instead of starting a new one

AB clone is going to be my beer after next . have listened to the podcasts, well flicked through them to hear the recipes and the results 

seems the simple 2nd version - 90% pale 10% special B recipe seems to be the one that got the best reaction.so thinking of going with that 

anyone else tried the various recipes ?


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## razz (15/4/19)

I can't help with your inquiry Mongey, but when you posted on Friday I had copied the recipe for a brew day today so I thought I would report back. I can't believe that it is 7 1/2 years since I brewed this. I have the chiller in the kettle at the moment and apart from keeping the recipe the same I am whirlpooling for an hour with 100g Chinook pellets. Smells nice, love Chinook. I also plan to add 250g to the fermenter, which I didn't do before. Happy days!


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## mongey (15/4/19)

razz said:


> I can't help with your inquiry Mongey, but when you posted on Friday I had copied the recipe for a brew day today so I thought I would report back. I can't believe that it is 7 1/2 years since I brewed this. I have the chiller in the kettle at the moment and apart from keeping the recipe the same I am whirlpooling for an hour with 100g Chinook pellets. Smells nice, love Chinook. I also plan to add 250g to the fermenter, which I didn't do before. Happy days!


nice

did you make the 90 Pale 10% special B recipe or one of the other ones


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## razz (15/4/19)

I did Mongey, I stuck with my tried recipe.


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## mongey (15/4/19)

sweet

Making an american brown this weekend and gonna re use the yeast for my AB in a few weeks . my local doesn't stock WLP007 so using Nottingham.


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## razz (30/4/19)

I kegged this latest AB clone yesterday and gave it a sneaky taste when I got home from work this morning. Quite impressed with the flavour and got a nice hoppy flavour, aroma and firm bitterness. A tad unclear at this early stage but it should clear up nicely, I've added some Deltafine to each keg, which I've not used before.


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## mongey (30/4/19)

razz said:


> I kegged this latest AB clone yesterday and gave it a sneaky taste when I got home from work this morning. Quite impressed with the flavour and got a nice hoppy flavour, aroma and firm bitterness. A tad unclear at this early stage but it should clear up nicely, I've added some Deltafine to each keg, which I've not used before.


Nice. I made mine and it’s in the cube waiting for me to bottle current batch so I can put it on. , hopefully this weekend.


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## wide eyed and legless (30/4/19)

razz said:


> I did Mongey, I stuck with my tried recipe.


Did you use the same yeast? Not a great lover of the heavily hopped American beers but as I am going over there I may come back wanting to brew one.


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## razz (2/5/19)

I used Safale US05 this time WEAL. I pretty much hit 80% with it it every time I use it. I would like to use the WLP007 again, it does a great job. You're going to the Disneyland of IPA's and you "may" come back wanting to brew one? It's an addiction! Carry your bags sir?..................


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## mongey (19/5/19)

So mine is done and bottled. Came out pretty good. Looks a few srm lighter than the original. Taste wise it def has notes of the original. See how it develops in the bottle. 

The. Nottingham did the Buisness. Og 1070 and it got down to 1012.


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## mongey (25/5/19)

So tried one after a week in the bottle and I’m pretty impressed. Color has def matured
To be pretty close and flavor def
Ticks allot of the boxes. Need to get 1 to compare. 

Will only get better as it’s only a week.


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