# Late Hop Additions. Flameout Vs Whirlpool.



## Fat Bastard (13/6/12)

Last few brews I've done, I've been adding the flameout additions at 10 minutes after flameout, waiting another 5 minutes or so until everything calms down and then whirlpooling. I've been getting a noticeably more aromatic brew from it, but have been wondering about the ideal time for the hops to steep.

My current process is:

Flameout 0 minutes
Add late hops -10
rest 5 minutes
whirlpool 10 minutes
rest 5-10 minutes
Drain kettle to fermenter via plate chiller.

So the hops are sitting in the slowly cooling wort for around 20-25 minutes. Does this sound correct? I don't want to extract bitterness along with the aroma from the hops.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers,

FB.


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## hoppy2B (13/6/12)

Alpha acids will isomerize at about 90 degrees or above. Use of a thermometre will give you the best guide for limiting bitterness.
Aroma may be lost with escaping co2 during fermentation but your method should be good for hop flavour.


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## Wolfy (14/6/12)

Fat Bastard said:


> I don't want to extract bitterness along with the aroma from the hops.
> 
> Your thoughts would be appreciated.


... Vs a Hopback: Infuse the hops in the still boiling wort and then immediately chill for maximum retention of volatile hop aroma compounds that would normally be driven off when the hops contact the hot wort.

Lots of other tips/info on the topic of late hopping here: http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php


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## Thirsty Boy (14/6/12)

Fat Bastard said:


> Last few brews I've done, I've been adding the flameout additions at 10 minutes after flameout, waiting another 5 minutes or so until everything calms down and then whirlpooling. I've been getting a noticeably more aromatic brew from it, but have been wondering about the ideal time for the hops to steep.
> 
> My current process is:
> 
> ...



You'll get some bitterness from those late hops FB - but you'll just have to use your tastebuds as a guide to determine if its a bit too much. If you aren't noticing it, then its not an issue. But I'd be ready to see some increased bitterness if you really whack in a bunch of whirlpool hops. Especially if you are chilling with a plate chiller and the wort in the kettle is still hot. Not to be depressed - what you are doing is exactly what a hell of a lot of great micros do.

As wolfy says - a hopback is IMO anyway, the best way to really shove in a whack of aroma but not get any real bitterness.

I cant resist the plug...... If you come to ANHC this year. Matt Brynildson will tell you all about late hops, aroma hops, dry hops. Dont take our word for it - come and take HIS word for it.

Sorry - helping organise this year and it gets into your brain.


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## piraterum (14/6/12)

Wolfy said:


> ... Vs a Hopback: Infuse the hops in the still boiling wort and then immediately chill for maximum retention of volatile hop aroma compounds that would normally be driven off when the hops contact the hot wort.
> 
> Lots of other tips/info on the topic of late hopping here: http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php




Nice article Wolfy! :beerbang: 

I'd like to get some people's thoughts on:

1. What experiences have people had with replacing traditional bittering hop additions (ie 60min boil) with with additions at 20 minutes or less left in the boil?

2. Does Beersmith V2.0 handle very late hop additions well?

3. How quickly do people chill the wort after adding late hop additions? In the article it says "We throw our late hops into the whirlpool at the last possible moment and then cool and transfer to the fermenter as
quickly as possible." I know i've seen other recipes which call for the hops to be steeped for at least 15mins before chilling. Any thoughts?




"Calculating the Numbers To use this technique in your own beers, replace all or part of your traditional bittering hop additions with additions at 20 minutes or less left in the boil, increasing the amount of hops to get the same IBUs. Replace all of your bittering hops for an intense hop flavor. Replace a lesser amount to just enhance the hop flavor. 

While isomerization is limited during a short boil, hop utilization isn't linear across the boil time. You don't need 6 times as much hops for a 10 minute boil as compared to a 60 minute boil. Assuming you're getting about 30% utilization at 60 minutes, you'll get around 17% at 20 minutes, 14% at 15 minutes, and around 10% at 10 minutes. So you'll need to approximately double or triple your hops to get an equivalent bitterness. If you're already calculating your bitterness with software or some other tool, use the same method to make this adjustment. 

It is said that most formulas for calculating bitterness are not as reliable for very late hop additions, but don't let that stop you. It is quite difficult to detect a 5 IBU difference in most moderately bittered beers and impossible in a highly bittered beer.

Brynildson says, "Getting great hop aroma takes execution, knowing your raw materials and knowing your brewhouse. If you throw hops into the whirlpool and then take two hours to cool, you will not get the effect you are looking for. We throw our late hops into the whirlpool at the last possible moment and then cool and transfer to the fermenter as quickly as possible."


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## Wolfy (14/6/12)

piraterum said:


> 1. What experiences have people had with replacing traditional bittering hop additions (ie 60min boil) with with additions at 20 minutes or less left in the boil?


You might like to search the forums for "20min IPA", there is also a recipe in the database - ALL the hops are thrown in at 20 mins.


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## Fat Bastard (14/6/12)

Thanks for that article Wolfy. Answered a few questions I had, and certainly pointed me towards the opinion that I have most of it right, I'm certainly getting a smooth bitterness in most of my IPA's, just not that Big Hop Aroma I desire.

TB, everything I read is pointing me towards a Blichmann Hop Rocket or some other hop back system. I assume with filtering the wort through one of these arrangements I could bugger off the waiting around for the convection to settle, whirlpool, then waiting some more before passing through the plate chiller part of the process? The filtering through hop pellets/flowers and presumably some other sort of filter built into the thing would also take care of the hot break material etc that I don't want getting to the fermenter?


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## Wolfy (15/6/12)

Fat Bastard said:


> TB, everything I read is pointing me towards a Blichmann Hop Rocket or some other hop back system. I assume with filtering the wort through one of these arrangements I could bugger off the waiting around for the convection to settle, whirlpool, then waiting some more before passing through the plate chiller part of the process? The filtering through hop pellets/flowers and presumably some other sort of filter built into the thing would also take care of the hot break material etc that I don't want getting to the fermenter?


From what I've read, a number of people run their Hop Rockets backward so that it acts as a (better) filter, even including stuff like rice hulls, swiss-volle/bags as well as the hops to help increase the filtering capabilities. I'm still a week or two away from setting up my DIY hop-back, but it's my hope/intention that it will act as a secondary filter before the wort hits the plate chiller.


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## MastersBrewery (15/6/12)

I haven't got a hop rocket (i wish) but I'm sure Malted who uses one as stated above (upside down) stated that whole hops or hop plugs were used and that pellets would just clog it up. check this thread: Link

Edit Link


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## rowanb (15/6/12)

Interesting related discussion over at homebrewtalk

How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions


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## piraterum (15/6/12)

rowanb said:


> Interesting related discussion over at homebrewtalk
> 
> How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions




Interesting thread Rowan

The gist of it suggests alot of people chuck a stack of hops in at flameout, whirlpool for 40mins BEFORE starting the chill. 

So pretty much the polar opposite of the Mr Malty article, which suggested cooling as quickly as possible :huh:


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## Midnight Brew (16/6/12)

rowanb said:


> Interesting related discussion over at homebrewtalk
> 
> How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions



I thought this was interesting as this is also the polar opposite of what the general opinion is here in australia. Taken from POST #10

"Those no-chill cubes sound perfect for doing IPA's and other hoppy beers. You'll get the most out of the aroma hops simply because the system is sealed and there is nowhere for the volatiles to escape. As the temp drops, the potential for generating bitterness would be lessened."


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## Thirsty Boy (16/6/12)

Wolfy said:


> From what I've read, a number of people run their Hop Rockets backward so that it acts as a (better) filter, even including stuff like rice hulls, swiss-volle/bags as well as the hops to help increase the filtering capabilities. I'm still a week or two away from setting up my DIY hop-back, but it's my hope/intention that it will act as a secondary filter before the wort hits the plate chiller.



Totally unessessary to fart around with all that extra bollocks. Just run the hop rocket as its designed, with hop flowers in it - and it does a perfectly good job of filtering out kettle hops (pellets, flowers might still block up your valves/hoses prior to the hop back) and break material. wort ex your chiller will be cool and more than clean enough. No whirlpool, no resting.... flame off and start to chill.

Upside down will work fine too, but the applications I have seen that are sensible, are where the HR is attached to the kettle and running "open" acting as a grant. All good, but you need to make sure it doesn't overflow and you will lose a _tiny_ bit of the aroma because its open. Most hop backs run this way... open pot that drains from the bottom.

Perfectly sensible... but not necessary in order to use the Hop Rocket as a pre-chiller filter. 

Fowers in them though, hop-backs are about flowers and they're not meant for use with pellets.


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## Fat Bastard (18/6/12)

Looks like this calls for some experimentation. Last brew I did, I think I've nailed the process I will use in future. Killed the element at 0 minutes, started whirlpool pump immediately, then added the aroma hops at -10 minutes (Wort temp was around 92c from memory by this stage), ran for a further 20 minutes, killed the pump, stood for 10 then drained to the chiller.

I'll do 2 back to back Ross' NSSA with identical hop additions, with one added at flame out and dumped as soon as possible via a hop blocker and the other added at -10 and following the above process. No dry hop to confuse things.

Got a feeling that leaving them to steep in the lower temperature wort will produce slightly more biterness, but better aroma.

Should be interesting, prove a point, and give me 2 batches of slightly different, but tasty beer.


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## Wolfy (18/6/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Totally unessessary to fart around with all that extra bollocks. Just run the hop rocket as its designed, with hop flowers in it - and it does a perfectly good job of filtering out kettle hops (pellets, flowers might still block up your valves/hoses prior to the hop back) and break material. wort ex your chiller will be cool and more than clean enough.


Except not every recipe calls for late hop flower additions, so some creative thinking and other options was needed if they're usually used in the hop-back for filtering purposes.


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