# Fermenting Same lager at 10c Vs 18c comparison on Brewing Radio



## Damn (13/10/15)

I'm sure many of you have already heard of Basic Brewing Radio, if not here's the link....
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio
I just listened to an interesting podcast *July 16, 2015 - Brulosopher NHC Experiments*
Where they blind taste test the same Brew fermented at 10c Vs 18c with more than 10 tasters and not many picked the difference.
I'd like to know if he lagered the brew after ferment?
They also did a 1st wort Hopping Vs 60min Boil with a marginally different result.
I'm interested in the lager though. It would save me some effort if I could brew at 18c. I'm supposing I'd still have to cold codtion for a number of weeks after?
Any thoughts/ experiences with this. Yeah, Yeah I know, I could try it myself. But I'd like to hear what other think.


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## technobabble66 (13/10/15)

Fwiw, my first 2 attempts at lagers are now almost 2 weeks in the bottle. 
Both done with S-189. 
One was fermented at 14*c for the first 36hrs then allowed to rise 1*c every 1-2 days up to 20*c. The other was the same but started at 16*c. D-rest for a few days at 20*c. They were then lagered for almost 3 weeks at 2*c. 
I tried the 2nd one last night. Pretty damn good, if I do say so myself. I just need to try it compared to, say a VB and a Boags Premium, then a good German Oktoberfest. 
But it at least turned out a decent beer. 

I chose the S189 after reading lots and lots of reports of great results from it at 16-18*c. Ross does/did a couple of lagers at 18*c that have received much praise, and I believe no flaws detected. 
Not sure about how other yeasts would go at high temps. Supposedly the San Fran Lager yeast is good for it also. 

Which strain did the brulosopher use?


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## GalBrew (13/10/15)

In all the 'exbeeriments' I have read on that website have the panel of tasters ever managed to detect anything? I personally take everything I read on that website with a grain of salt and would not be game to ferment a lager at 18C, when I can just set it at 12C (what's the difference?).


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## technobabble66 (13/10/15)

GalBrew said:


> In all the 'exbeeriments' I have read on that website have the panel of tasters ever managed to detect anything? I personally take everything I read on that website with a grain of salt...


Yeah. I'd agree with this also. 
I definitely find his results interesting and noteworthy for further discussion/testing. But I've also seen a few of the experiments done with IPAs etc where I wonder how well could the average joe detect whether he'd pissed in it, let alone fine differences in quality. 
I'm a big fan of his testing/challenging of previously accepted procedures/beliefs etc, but I just take his findings w a little grain of salt in recognition of the looseness of his scientific procedures. 

Sorry Damn, bit OT.


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## Damn (13/10/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Which strain did the brulosopher use?


WLP800

And yeah I agree, they do seem a bit disorganised, not exactly scientific, but there's more experience on that panel than I've got. It just reminds me to keep an open mind. Just because Jamil suggests to ferment at 10c doesn't make it gospel.


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## crowmanz (13/10/15)

Here is the "exbeeriment" link from Brulosophers website:
http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/22/fermentation-temperature-pt-3-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

He used a guick lager method - http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

Take his experiment results with a grain of salt, http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/86620-brulosophy/


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## danestead (13/10/15)

GalBrew said:


> (what's the difference?).


Speed of fermentation and not everyone has the ability to temp control their fermentations.


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## MHB (13/10/15)

My limited reading of the exbeeriment leads me to think they contain as much real science as Myth Busters = 0!



danestead said:


> Speed of fermentation and not everyone has the ability to temp control their fermentations.


I would rate control of your fermentation as more important than going AG, it really is fundamental to producing consistent quality beer, I wouldn't even think about trying to make Lager outside a temperature controlled environment. Temp control is ridiculously cheap, an STC-1000, an old fridge and ideally put a small fan in there and every beer you brew will be better for it. 
My favourite brewing saying is "_everything ends up in the glass"_ and I care about what I drink.
Mark


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## technobabble66 (13/10/15)

Just read the printed version of it in crowmanz link above. 

Basically no significant difference statistically between them, though maybe a *slight* difference in the aroma (that only a small number detected). 

Seems like a pretty decent effort at a (loose) experiment and his discussion seemed reasonable. 
Maybe a lower-bittered lager and one without a lot of late hops (1.5g/L at both 10mins and flameout. Seriously?!) would've been better, but there's still not much to hide behind in a Boh Pils if there are flaws. 
And the tasting panel was certainly a cut above some of his previous efforts. 
He does emphasize (the near certainty of) these "neutral" findings being strain dependent. And that the large starter might've compensated significantly for the high temp. 

I'd still apply a hefty grain of salt, but definitely one of his better ones. 
Maybe he/someone needs to try it again, but with just a bittering charge of hops; and another with a slightly under-pitched amount of yeast. Methinks the difference will be more noticeable :lol:


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## danestead (13/10/15)

MHB said:


> My limited reading of the exbeeriment leads me to think they contain as much real science as Myth Busters = 0!
> 
> 
> I would rate control of your fermentation as more important than going AG, it really is fundamental to producing consistent quality beer, I wouldn't even think about trying to make Lager outside a temperature controlled environment. Temp control is ridiculously cheap, an STC-1000, an old fridge and ideally put a small fan in there and every beer you brew will be better for it.
> ...


I'm a bit confused with your reply to my quote Mark?

The person I quoted stated why would you ferment at 18 degrees when you can just ferment at 12 degrees. I was merely stating that not everyone has the ability to ferment at 12 deg and that the beer would ferment quicker at 18 degrees. I would love lagers to ferment quicker hence I see that as a reason people may experiment with warmer ferments. I was not commenting on the quality of the resultant beer in any way.

Sorry if that was misleading.


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## Damn (13/10/15)

crowmanz said:


> He used a guick lager method - http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/


This is useful. I question why I lagered mine for 5 weeks. Sorry to deviate.


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## goatchop41 (13/10/15)

technobabble66 said:


> Yeah. I'd agree with this also.
> I definitely find his results interesting and noteworthy for further discussion/testing. But I've also seen a few of the experiments done with IPAs etc where I wonder how well could the average joe detect whether he'd pissed in it, let alone fine differences in quality.
> I'm a big fan of his testing/challenging of previously accepted procedures/beliefs etc, but I just take his findings w a little grain of salt in recognition of the looseness of his scientific procedures.
> 
> Sorry Damn, bit OT.


Even though they aren't perfect, they still do fairly well to isolate a variable. What I take from it is that if there is a good chance that BJCP judges can't taste a difference, then I (and my friends who drink my beer) will be quite unlikely to taste a difference


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## Coodgee (13/10/15)

Seems worth a try for sure


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## MHB (13/10/15)

I'll stick with what I said


danestead said:


> I'm a bit confused with your reply to my quote Mark?
> 
> The person I quoted stated why would you ferment at 18 degrees when you can just ferment at 12 degrees. I was merely stating that not everyone has the ability to ferment at 12 deg and that the beer would ferment quicker at 18 degrees. I would love lagers to ferment quicker hence I see that as a reason people may experiment with warmer ferments. I was not commenting on the quality of the resultant beer in any way.
> 
> Sorry if that was misleading.


I'll stick with what I said, I think its clear enough.
If you want to make beer consistently you need temperature control - rather than relying on the vagaries of weather.
I think investing in decent fermentation control is more important to the production of good consistent beer than is making your wort and the investment that takes - get good temp control first - its worth it!



goatchop41 said:


> Even though they aren't perfect, they still do fairly well to isolate a variable. What I take from it is that if there is a good chance that BJCP judges can't taste a difference, then I (and my friends who drink my beer) will be quite unlikely to taste a difference


There may be an element of truth in that. but when we judge a comp there should always be a calibration beer or two, if you aren't familiar with a style it would be a very good idea to taste a couple of the sighted exemplars of that style before judging it.
In this case they are they are tasting two beers to see if there is a difference between the two caused by the fermentation temperature, but that could easily be a case of judging between bad and worse rather than between good and better, there is no objective way to tell if the wort was well made, it was well aerated, it had the right balance of nutrients, if the yeast was healthy, the temperature was well maintained, the lagering achieved the goals of the process...
We are in effect asked to take their word that the beer is perfect (well pretty damn good anyway) and that the only difference comes from the fermentation temperature. To me that's pretty crappy science (actually it isn't science at all).
Blind tasting the two "Test" beers alongside a couple of commercial control examples would be likely to address some of the concerns.
Mark


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## Bribie G (13/10/15)

I have no Idea what Bacchus do nowadays but when Ross took over all the beers were fermented in 18 or 19 degree cool room then transferred to a lagering room for cold conditioning.
Using s-189 or S-23 for the lagers I believe. 
At the tasting taps their lagers were clean as a whistle with nothing funky or fruity.


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## mje1980 (13/10/15)

I wish my warm fermented lagers tasted as good as the cold fermented ones ( pitched cold and fermented cold ). It'd save a lot of time and some effort. But to me, they just don't taste anywhere near as good as when I make a big starter, pitch cold and just wait for them to be done. Even the pitched cold, then raised up quickly ones don't seem to be as good as just cold all the way


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## Rocker1986 (13/10/15)

Damn said:


> This is useful. I question why I lagered mine for 5 weeks. Sorry to deviate.


Bit O/T, but I can vouch for the quick lager method at least. My last 4 or 5 batches have been done this way and all of them have been just as good as ones I've done where I waited longer before raising the temp and then lagered them for extended periods in the FV. As such I've ditched the drawn out method and am only leaving lagers in the FV for 4 weeks now. Much happier not tying up the brew fridge for ages on one f-ing batch.

Back to the topic I would be hesitant fermenting these batches at 18C for the WHOLE time.. even though those tasters apparently couldn't detect much difference, but maybe it depends on the yeast as others have mentioned. I do enjoy the Brulosophy site, mainly due to the challenging of accepted/traditional ideas, but aside from the quick lager method I haven't changed any of my brewing and fermenting process as a result of it. It's just something interesting and different to read.


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## fishingbrad (13/10/15)

Great yeast that S-189. My go to lager yeast. I ferment it @11c for 2 weeks, raise to 18c for 2 days and then crash.


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## Barge (13/10/15)

All my BoPils have been fermented at 18C with S-189 and have been really good.


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## glenwal (13/10/15)

The only thing that really matters is if you can taste the difference. And the only real way to find that it is to try it your self.

If your entering a beer in a comp is a different story, but if you can't pick it in a beer your brewing fit yourself, then who cares.

And even if you can pick it, it's still your call on if you think it's worth it. 

"Off" flavors don't necessarily taste bad, it's just some flavors don't technically belong in certain styles. But your tastes don't have to align to technical styles.

Temp control is still important though, as it allows for consistency/repeatability, so you know if you liked it last time it was fermented at x degrees, then you can do it again and you'll like it this time.


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## dannymars (13/10/15)

Possibly OT: but WLP800 is a beast that I think would be pretty resilient to a range of different temps.


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## mfeighan (17/10/15)

mje1980 said:


> I wish my warm fermented lagers tasted as good as the cold fermented ones ( pitched cold and fermented cold ). It'd save a lot of time and some effort. But to me, they just don't taste anywhere near as good as when I make a big starter, pitch cold and just wait for them to be done. Even the pitched cold, then raised up quickly ones don't seem to be as good as just cold all the way


ferment under pressure, ever since i have been fooling around with it my lagers taste cleaner and it finishes faster.
My current schedule, cold pitch set controller (with the heating turned off) to 10, as soon as pressure builds to 100kpa (usually 2 days post pitching) i set the controller to naturally ramp to 15 deg. Beer is clean and usually finished in less than 8 days, i cold condition till the next weekend (or the weekend after that if im lazy) filter and carb. If im not lazy i have a very drinkable lager in 2 weeks but most of the time it takes me 3 as some weekends i just cbf.

a non pressurised example of a lager that i did with only temp control for the first 4 days and left it in the shed at ambient summer temps ~ 25-30c was amazing. Im pretty sure i just fluked it, but i purposely over pitched yeast my reasoning being the big breweries do it and im not after the yeast derived flavours that you want in an ale. I wanted room for another beer my fermenting fridge so i pulled out the lager. Turned out amazing 3 weeks later after only 4 days of temp control. Because of the effort involved in a brewday i am unwilling to repeat this process to see if its repeatable.

I do agree with MHB i haven't tried since going ag but i reckon some kits would be pretty tasty with proper temp control


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## mje1980 (18/10/15)

What fermenter do you have?


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## droid (21/10/15)

such an experiment is underway here right now, because i've run out of fridge space, about 16ltrs of a 52ltr batch is in the pantry at ambient - the rest is at 9deg temp controlled. I'm just gonna let the pantry one run its course then fridge it for a few weeks it will be interesting to see how they stack up against each other

@damn fwiw if you run your fridge on a cold setting for conditioning a temp controller is not needed, that's what will prolly happen here as my temp controllers are otherwise occupied... anyway once its all over just fridge it around 0-2deg if poss


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## mfeighan (23/10/15)

mje1980 said:


> What fermenter do you have?


2x 50l conicals, rated to 100kpa


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## pist (25/10/15)

I cant be bothered with lagers these days they tie up my kegs and fermenting fridge too long, but im also a fan of s189. Fairly lazy fermentation schedule. First week at 10oC. Then let it wander up as far as it wants to go to 16oC for a d rest second week, usually by then its at 1.020 or below, then just lager in primary for 2 weeks. Have had good results


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## pist (26/10/15)

I personally would not allow primary fermentation to occur at that temperature. Many lager strains do throw some sulphur, stressing the yeast will only make the yeast throw more


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## Rocker1986 (26/10/15)

pist said:


> I cant be bothered with lagers these days they tie up my kegs and fermenting fridge too long, but im also a fan of s189. Fairly lazy fermentation schedule. First week at 10oC. Then let it wander up as far as it wants to go to 16oC for a d rest second week, usually by then its at 1.020 or below, then just lager in primary for 2 weeks. Have had good results


That's basically what I do as well although I allow it to come up to 18.. Have been using Wyeast 2001 lately and used this schedule each batch with decent results (except one that was sub-par due to other reasons).


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## Futur (4/11/15)

Damn said:


> This is useful. I question why I lagered mine for 5 weeks. Sorry to deviate.


Vouching for the lager method also - I've done three lagers with this method and they have all come out fantastic. Grain to glass was approximately 3 weeks.

EDIT: Thought it would be worth mentioning this was with WY 2308 Munich Lager *without * doing the gradual temperature changes specified in the method.


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## Goose (5/11/15)

mje1980 said:


> I wish my warm fermented lagers tasted as good as the cold fermented ones ( pitched cold and fermented cold ). It'd save a lot of time and some effort. But to me, they just don't taste anywhere near as good as when I make a big starter, pitch cold and just wait for them to be done. Even the pitched cold, then raised up quickly ones don't seem to be as good as just cold all the way


Yes, but many brewer's experience seems different and your conclusion would carry alot more clout if you put two beers genuinely brewed in the two different ways in front of a panel of tasters (the bigger the better) and let them decide. Granted, the only science in this approach, as with the Brulosophy bloke is the statistics applied to the results of the tasting panel.

btw I love a lager and volunteer to be on your panel .


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## mje1980 (5/11/15)

The only panel of tasters I'm worried about is me, and to me, my above conclusion sounds spot on .


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## Goose (5/11/15)

mje1980 said:


> The only panel of tasters I'm worried about is me, and to me, my above conclusion sounds spot on .


Good science requires that thou conclusion be verified by others 

And repeatable.


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## mje1980 (6/11/15)

Youre right how silly of me. I guess I'll go back to pitching warm and just put up with the esters I don't like. Because science 


Long story short, I was never happy with my lagers. Warm pitched and put into a cold fridge, i didnt really rate any of them. No science involved, just didn't love them. Since pitching cold, they're much better, more smooth and I like them much more. Again, no science just my preference. Shoot me if my preference doesn't come with a thesis


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## Barge (6/11/15)

Have you tried s-189?


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## mje1980 (6/11/15)

Yes.


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## Barge (6/11/15)

Barge said:


> Have you tried s-189?





mje1980 said:


> Yes.


Furry muff. 

I agree with you. Go with what you like. I have made some really good Czech Pilsners with 189 fermented at 18C but that doesn't mean you have to.

Brew on! :drinks:


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## Goose (6/11/15)

mje1980 said:


> Youre right how silly of me. I guess I'll go back to pitching warm and just put up with the esters I don't like. Because science


LOL. Not sure I was suggesting that actually. You clearly have a high degree of confidence in your own taste buds, good for you.

I suppose I do not have the same gifted palate and therefore find the opinions of others quite valuable input. 

That is all, thankyou, and goodnight.


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## mje1980 (6/11/15)

Apologies if I've missed something. I prefer my lagers cold pitched and cold fermented.

I dont often have others taste my beers apart from brew club events, so if I like the beer, that's good enough for me, I don't need others to concur with my opinions on said beer to enjoy it.


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## Rocker1986 (6/11/15)

I'm with mje here, not just with lagers but any style of beer - our brewing and serving practices are governed by our own tastebuds, not a panel of scientists, or anyone else for that matter. Unless you're putting beers into competitions you're brewing for yourself.

For me, the quick lager method works really well and I'm really happy with the resultant beers, so I will continue to use it. But that doesn't mean it works for everybody, and in that case, those brewers will find and use a method that does work for them, nothing wrong with that. B)


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## Coodgee (6/11/15)

I find wy2112 makes fantastic clean lagers when fermented at 14 degrees. The only restriction with this yeast is that you never get a dry result but i like a malty lager anyway. The brew i put down on Saturday with a 2l starter pitched at 14 degrees was at final gravity by Wednesday. That's faster than many ale yeasts.


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## Grott (24/12/15)

droid said:


> such an experiment is underway here right now, because i've run out of fridge space, about 16ltrs of a 52ltr batch is in the pantry at ambient - the rest is at 9deg temp controlled. I'm just gonna let the pantry one run its course then fridge it for a few weeks it will be interesting to see how they stack up against each other


How did the "pantry one" turn out and compared with the other?
I've been given a Thomas Cooper Australian Bitter and a can of light malt extract, however for various reasons will only be able to maintain a temp. of around 18 degrees and would hope this would turn out ok for kegging. If risky then will leave until winter months.
Cheers


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## Gelding (24/12/15)

I bit my tongue on this thread a month ago but now that grott has resurrected it I cant help but to observe the narcissism in some of the comments here.

Not for the sake of hot or cold fermentation and who is right, but who do you brew for... and I am amazed that some here say they brew for themseleves and themselves only, what is right for them must be right because there is no other standard than their own tastebuds, really ? 

and the 29 yo rocker stuck his little dicky in too, "Unless you're putting beers into competitions you're brewing for yourself". What an absolute CROCK of a thing to say. Reminds me of lyrics of an old song by Joan Armatrading... 

I don't brew commercially but I do brew for the enjoyment of others and the feedback they provide to help me make better beers, whether that be for a competition or for my mates who enjoy a pint. Therefore I target the tastebuds of the masses that I know are going to drink my beer, not me, not myself, and not I.


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## manticle (24/12/15)

Feel free to have some input but I'm not sure narcissism is an appropriate term and the snipey nature of your post is unwarranted.


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## kunfaced (24/12/15)

Gelding said:


> I cant help but to observe the narcissism in some of the comments here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...and the 29 yo rocker stuck his little dicky in too,


I bet you call your dick Ben Hurr. It's a forum, where everyone is allowed to stick it in.


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## labels (24/12/15)

grott said:


> How did the "pantry one" turn out and compared with the other?
> I've been given a Thomas Cooper Australian Bitter and a can of light malt extract, however for various reasons will only be able to maintain a temp. of around 18 degrees and would hope this would turn out ok for kegging. If risky then will leave until winter months.
> Cheers


Personally, I would not try a true lager with kit beers, I have yet to try one that has turned out any good. However, you can still turn out a pretty good pseudo lager using a Kolsch yeast which you can ferment at warmer temps.

The topic of this thread is really about pushing the limits of lager yeast. I think this is too broad, there are many lager strains and some may be more adaptable to higher temps than others. I stick with the yeast manufacturers recommended temp, seems to work every time.


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## danestead (24/12/15)

I just did a Munich Helles using 'Tasty's Quick Lager Method' whereby you pitch at normal temps (12c for this one) and raise to 18c. It has turned out quite well and went from grain to glass in 3 weeks. I will continue experimenting with this method.


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## waggastew (24/12/15)

I tried the Tasty method a few times this year with WLP833. While they definitely had most of the characteristics of a good lager they all had acetaldehyde issues, a sign of yeast stress. This was despite pitching big starters.

My other lagers using that yeast have not had the same problem so I am back to 1-2 weeks at 10degC, bump up to 14degC for a good week once a few points short of FG. My latest batch I am skipping the slow chill and opting for straight into the keezer to save me some time. Will see how it goes......


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