# Bad advice, yes? No?



## Thefatdoghead (25/9/13)

My brother has recently got into brewing, so, he has basically gone straight to all grain. I've been helping him along the way.
He wanted to brew a lager straight up. He has all the equipment so I gave him a good recipe. One that I've brewed many times before. 
He went to buy some yeast and was told that 1 pack of wyeast was plenty in a 42 liter batch of 1.048 SG wort at 12 degrees. No starter, just straight in there. 
I know how much yeast you need for a double batch lager. We've all seen the yeast calculators and read the books on yeast numbers. I mean, I wouldn't even pitch 1 wyeast pack of ale yeast at 18 degrees in a double batch, even if it was 1.040 wort. 
Sure it would ferment but your waiting ages with a sluggish ferment while the yeast struggles to make it through to final gravity. 
So could all the info out there be wrong on yeast numbers or is this retailer just giving plain old bad advice? What am I missing here?
What I am quiet bewildered with is, wouldn't they want to sell more yeast anyway? 
Interested on everyone's thoughts here.


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## tavas (25/9/13)

There's at least one longish thread on bad advice coming from some home brew stores. So it is not beyond the realms of reality to think the advice about 1 packet of yeast being wrong.

Yes you will still make beer with it, and maybe in the advice giver's experience his beers are acceptable, so he thinks that you only need 1 packet. 

When I first started brewing I thought beer should be fermented at +24*c with 7g of kit yeast, from a packet sitting on the shelf. I thought my beers were fine. It was not until I found this site that I realised that there are better ways to do things.

Brewing is over 8000 years old and many of those centuries were without knowledge of yeast and no temp control, not to mention open fermentation and poor sanitation.

You can beer under many conditions that we consider not ideal, but it is still beer.


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## benno1973 (25/9/13)

Surely the retailer knows what he's talking about? Surely!

I went into a HBS the other day and heard the guy doling out the same advice to an unsuspecting customer.


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## Thefatdoghead (25/9/13)

It's a touchy subject when your talking about business. So I'm not going to be name dropping or any of that BS. I'm just really surprised that someone so knowledgable is telling my bro to pitch 1 pack of wyeast into 12 degree wort at 1.048 sg. 
It's not the only, for lack of a better word, strange advice he's had there either.


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## tavas (25/9/13)

Happens more than you think. We care about our beer so we spend time and energy researching to make the best product, but some people are simply into making money so don't care for that. Or they simply may not know any better.

My dad used to say "he who knows it the least, knows it the longest and the loudest."


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## Cocko (25/9/13)

Gav80 said:


> So could all the info out there be wrong on yeast numbers...?


In answer to your topic title, yes.

In answer to the quoted text of your own above, no.

If you get 75 points of reference saying one thing and 1 saying another... what would you do?


Seriously, you need to ask about this Gav? Tell your bro how it is and to sort it out.

2c.


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## Thefatdoghead (25/9/13)

Cocko said:


> In answer to your topic title, yes.
> 
> In answer to the quoted text of your own above, no.
> 
> ...


I have sorted it with my brother. 
His beer will be all good. 
The first time he went in there, he took in the recipe I gave him to get the ingredients. He was scoffed at and told, whoever made this recipe doesn't know what they are doing. 
It was Charlie Papazians recipe out of The Complete Joy of Homebrewing. You know, the award winning recipe.


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## manticle (26/9/13)

Yes. Bad.


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## manticle (26/9/13)

Badvice


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## boonchu (26/9/13)

Got to ask the question, how many people who work in home brew shops actually brew or used to brew


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## Camo6 (26/9/13)

I went to get the grainbill for Manticles american brown from a lhbs and when I asked for dingemanns biscuit he screwed up his face and said 'where are you getting these recipes?!'


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## niftinev (26/9/13)

I doubt the LHBS near me would be any better.

Went there 3 times and could never get what I want (like US-05) would have in about 4-6 weeks time

Been riding a motor bike for 2 years and has no idea what brand it is (no brand name visible)

yeast kept on shelves

What chances do you have of getting good advice

never been back since

that's why I go to CraftBrewer a 260km round trip for me, but worth the effort


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## Thefatdoghead (26/9/13)

All I can say is that the person in question does brew all grain and is very knowledgable and should really know better. 
My brother had to actually argue with this guy to get the extra yeast packets. I mean, come on.


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## bum (26/9/13)

You should get a letterbox, niftinev.



boonchu said:


> Got to ask the question, how many people who work in home brew shops actually brew or used to brew


The LHBS that used to be near me had a fermenter running in the north-facing shop window. He brews - his advice must be good!

[EDIT: cross-post]


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## Adr_0 (26/9/13)

tavas said:


> There's at least one longish thread on bad advice coming from some home brew stores. So it is not beyond the realms of reality to think the advice about 1 packet of yeast being wrong.
> 
> Yes you will still make beer with it, and maybe in the advice giver's experience his beers are acceptable, so he thinks that you only need 1 packet.
> 
> ...


That's probably the most diplomatic post I've ever read in my life...


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## booargy (26/9/13)

If you went into a shop and they said "pitch 4 packets @ 12c" they would just look like they want to sell extra yeast.


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## manticle (26/9/13)

Camo6 said:


> I went to get the grainbill for Manticles american brown from a lhbs and when I asked for dingemanns biscuit he screwed up his face and said 'where are you getting these recipes?!'


He was probably amazed that someone would think of putting a nutty, toasty malt into a brown ale to give it a nutty, toasty character. Bit like Matt Preston screwing up his face when he eats something he really, really likes.


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## treefiddy (26/9/13)

manticle said:


> He was probably amazed that someone would think of putting a nutty, toasty malt into a brown ale to give it a nutty, toasty character.


To be fair, the obvious solution would be to use peanut butter toast.


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## manticle (26/9/13)

Would I need to do a cereal mash with the toast? Could the butter be confused with diacetyl?

So many questions (well two).


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## treefiddy (26/9/13)

manticle said:


> Would I need to do a cereal mash with the toast? Could the butter be confused with diacetyl?
> 
> So many questions (well two).


Toast is typically mashed during the mastication process, so probably.

The butter may or may not be perceived as diactyl, but would certainly be exacerbated by the addition of scotch (preferably single malt).


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## benno1973 (26/9/13)

treefiddy said:


> Toast is typically mashed during the mastication process, so probably.


Mmm... some sort of PB&J chicha. Delicious.


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## boonchu (26/9/13)

Too much fat and oil in the PB might lose head retention


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## manticle (26/9/13)

Get the lo-fat/diet/lite version


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## Adr_0 (26/9/13)

To get the strong biscuity notes coming through, at which stage is best to add the Girl Guide biscuits?


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## tavas (26/9/13)

manticle said:


> Would I need to do a cereal mash with the toast?


Only if you use multigrain


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## manticle (26/9/13)

Adr_0 said:


> To get the strong biscuity notes coming through, at which stage is best to add the Girl Guide biscuits?


Depends on the girl's guidance


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## djar007 (26/9/13)

Went into the local hbs and was interested in one of the fwk that they have there. The Riggers Black Ipa. Been meaning to do a black ipa for a while and asked about it. They happily printed out a recipe for me. My advice is that if you and your brother don't trust the local hbs for advice on small things like yeast , then you need to find one you do trust. Then they can guide you/him through the finer points of brewing as my local has.


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## lmccrone (26/9/13)

Back in my kit and kilo days I used to go to a home brew shop near the vic markets who shall remain nameless (subtle) and they had run out of safale so told me to use the wit bier yeast because it was basically the same thing. The beer tasted even worse than I had expected and so I went down to grain and grape and asked if a wit bier yeast was basically the same thing as a ale yeast and the bloke behind the counter took me to the fridge out the back and asked why they would stock 20+ types of yeast it they all did the same bloody thing? 

I have never looked back.


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## MelbourneDave (26/9/13)

When I was just starting out I would listen earnestly to what my LHBS owner told me, until he said malt doesn't add any flavour to beer just colour. Even as a beginner I realised how bad this advice was but he's a friendly guy so I still go in but now I just pick my own stuff and ignore his advice.


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## philmud (29/9/13)

I wonder how many potential brewers are put off by bad advice/instructions. My first ever beer was a K&K Cerveza brewed to instructions at January ambient temps. If I thought that was as good as it got I would never have made another beer because I don't like the taste of carbonated camel's piss.
It's in the interest of LHBSs for their customers to brew excellent beer that makes the time and effort of brewing pay dividends.


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## boybrewer (6/10/13)

My first brew I did was ok . The guy at the LHBS was very nice he actually drilled a hole in the top of the fermenter lid so I could insert an immersion heater set at a good Lager and Ale temp of 22* C + . What a nice guy . Found out later he rarely brews . After finding this site I pulled out the immersion heater threw away the lid and started using glad wrap and a temp controlled ferment chamber. Thanks to all the bloggers on this site and all the other sites out there I now make a beer that is worthy to pass on to my friends. 


Cheers


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## hoppy2B (6/10/13)

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion. h34r:


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## Spiesy (6/10/13)

Bad advice exists. No surprises there.


This thread would have a lot more purpose if the perpetrating LHBS was "named and shamed", as long as it's not conjecture.


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## Camo6 (6/10/13)

Conjecture? On the internet? Have you lost your mind, good sir?


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## Spiesy (6/10/13)

It seems that I may have.


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## Dan Dan (6/10/13)

Gav, is this the shop near my place?


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## yum beer (6/10/13)

WTF is some one doing in a shop of any kind if they don't understand what it is they are selling.......you don't have to brew to have some knowledge of best/better practise.
The problem is too many people still think homebrew is for 'cheap drunks' who really don't give a shit what they drink as long as it gets them pissed.
Find a good HBS if you can and stick with them.
I have to rely on the internet for postal goodies, so everybody on here is my LHBS....generally I get good advice, no where near enough samples though.


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## bmarshall (6/10/13)

beer belly said:


> My first brew I did was ok . The guy at the LHBS was very nice he actually drilled a hole in the top of the fermenter lid so I could insert an immersion heater set at a good Lager and Ale temp of 22* C + . What a nice guy . Found out later he rarely brews . After finding this site I pulled out the immersion heater threw away the lid and started using glad wrap and a temp controlled ferment chamber. Thanks to all the bloggers on this site and all the other sites out there I now make a beer that is worthy to pass on to my friends.
> 
> 
> Cheers


I was checking out a LHBS when i told the guy my setup is a fridge, heat pad and temp controler. He smirked and said get rid of that and stick an imersion heater in the FV instead!
My heat pad rarely turns on when i set the temp at 19-20 anyway.


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## Thefatdoghead (7/10/13)

Dan Dan said:


> Gav, is this the shop near my place?


No mate, it's near my brothers place. It's well known to people on here but im not going to say. Im just recommending to my brother to get the ingredients he needs and to not listen to the guy in there.


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## boybrewer (7/10/13)

Hey bmarshall 

It sounds like the same brew shop. What area are you in ?


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## bmarshall (8/10/13)

Berwick. But it want in my imediate area.


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## bum (8/10/13)

So Hallam then?


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## bmarshall (8/10/13)

No. North


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