# Melbourne Water



## Strutter

Hi all,

After my first 4 biabs of crap eff and some recent reading i'm going to make some water adjustments next brew day. I'm not trying to create a water profile just improve mash eff.

My plan is to buy some Calcium Chloride and add it as necessary as per instruction to harden up my water.

My query is, will this be enough on its own or am i better off adding on of those ph adjuster thingys OR do i do both?

Im not trying to re-invent the wheel, just make a better bevvy with the grain i have available.


Cheers,

Strut


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## Wolfy

We're on Cardinia water here which is pretty soft (I can't find a link to the file from the water company just now), but I'd suggest you start with the instructions at the end of Key Concepts in Water Treatment .
Depending on where you are buying your Calcium Chloride given that brewing salts are pretty cheap, you may as well pickup some Gypsum and even Chalk at the same time (KegKing had them for just a few $ a pack when I looked there last).


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## felten

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-w...-primer-198460/ and http://www.melbournebrewers.org/images/sto...20treatment.pdf 

The 1st link make it all pretty easy. The 2nd link is Melbourne specific.

http://www.sewl.com.au/SiteCollectionDocum...YSIS%202009.pdf here's the water report I have bookmarked, not sure if its the most recent or not.


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## fcmcg

Strutter said:


> Hi all,
> 
> After my first 4 biabs of crap eff and some recent reading i'm going to make some water adjustments next brew day. I'm not trying to create a water profile just improve mash eff.
> 
> My plan is to buy some Calcium Chloride and add it as necessary as per instruction to harden up my water.
> 
> My query is, will this be enough on its own or am i better off adding on of those ph adjuster thingys OR do i do both?
> 
> Im not trying to re-invent the wheel, just make a better bevvy with the grain i have available.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Strut


In my opinon , just adjusting your water profile isn't going to fix your problems alone...
It will however help alot...
According to some research , Calcium is the "good guy" with brewing....
It increases mash acidity , enzyme activity , protein digestion amd can also improve lauter run-off...
btw you want Calcium cholide , as you have stated , as a general water treament....
Calcium carbonate for your darker beers
Calcium sulphate for your paler beers
I'd also have a look at your crush too...does your HB shop do it for you or do you do it ?
Crush can play a majot part in your effeciency too...
Also a fellow biab'er also does a sparge of sorts with his bag in a bucket after he pulls it out of the pot....
As for the 5 star ph mash adjuster stuff..never used it.. but might buy some myself....and i'd probably only use that rather than try and fart around with 2 things...
Good luck
Cheers
F
btw...also label your stuff...there was a post this week with someone using pbw instead of their brewing salts !
F


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## hillbillybreweries

you can't go wrong reading Tony's Key Concepts in Water Treatment paper as suggested earlier in this thread via the Melbourne Brewer's link. 
You definitely don't want your beer suffering from lack of Calcium by using water straight from tap - and of course you should filter it and/or boil it. 
Gypsum is going to give you a crisper bitterness perhaps good for British Ales for example- added at the right amounts of course. Calcium Chloride can give you softer bitterness which is great for an APA for another example. 
It's a complex area as you look across all styles but Tony's paper helps a lot and simplifies it for some of us less science orientated brewers. 

If you add the right stuff to your water you can adjust the ph of your mash with Phosphoric Acid or if you like Citric Acid as needed and it will be one thing that will help improve your beer.


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## Strutter

Ripper, thanks all.

As I've stated I'm just trying to improve my mash eff, not re create water from around the world.

Just gotta grab those 8 points to turn a 4 beer grain bill into 5....


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## manticle

Calcium sulphate to push hops and bitterness.
Calcium Chloride to push malt profile.

In my opinion based on some experience and limited knowledge (using Melbourne water) you need nothing else. I'm sworn off carbonates and avoid them even in dark beers (others may disagree) and likewise magnesium and sodium.

It helps flavour more than anything in my beers - if you have big efficiency problems, calcium in soft water will help but there are other things to look at as well.


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## seemax

+1 on manticle's quick summary

consistent mash temps, grain crush, pH ... they're the simple factors that you can control... 

FWIW - i got very minor eff gains with gypsum (calcium sulphate) .. and a good gain from calcium chloride...


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## verysupple

Resurecting an old thread here...





manticle said:


> Calcium sulphate to push hops and bitterness.
> Calcium Chloride to push malt profile.
> 
> In my opinion based on some experience and limited knowledge (using Melbourne water) you need nothing else. I'm sworn off carbonates and avoid them even in dark beers (others may disagree) and likewise magnesium and sodium.
> 
> It helps flavour more than anything in my beers - if you have big efficiency problems, calcium in soft water will help but there are other things to look at as well.


It's taken me about 3 days to get my head around water chemistry but I think I've got it now. I want to get my Ca levels up a bit and plan to do just as you said, Manticle, and add CaSO4 and CaCl2. By my calculations this would put my residual alkalinity to effective hardness ratio way out and my resulting mash pH would only be in the correct range for really light beers (up to ~9 EBC). Now, this would be easily remedied by adding CaCO3 or MgSO4. But I seem to keep reading that carbonates and magnesium are bad.

Have you measured your mash pH for different grain bills and confirmed that it's not dropping too low for darker beers (not extremely dark like stout, like amber to brown)?


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## manticle

I add my dark grains late after cold steeping overnight. Mid coloured beers are close to spot on, lighter ones get a hint of food grade acid as well.

Are you saying small salt additions are making your mash too acidic?


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## verysupple

I haven't actually made any adjustments yet. I was just wondering so I could decide whether or not to bother buying the CaCO3 or MgSO4. 

From what you have found, I think I'll try with just CaSO4 and CaCl2 and test the pH about 15 min after dough-in. Then I can make necessary adjustments next time if need be.

Thanks for the info.


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## manticle

Carbonate will raise the pH (although not by much unless dissolved in acid first) but magnesium sulphate will drop it so they do different things. Magnesium does similar things to calcium but less effectively.

I meant does software suggest your proposed additions will make the mash too acidic?


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## verysupple

Yeah, Palmer's spreadsheet says it will be too acidic. But he acknowledges that the whole thing's a bit hand wavey.

My mistake about the MgSO4, when I was playing around with the spreadsheet I tried adding MgSO4 instead of CaSO4 to get the sulfates up a bit (for a bitter). This of course meant that my Ca levels were much lower than before, leading to no acidity problem. I didn't realise that it also meant my Ca was too low - which was the whole point of salt additions in the first place. 

Thanks for your help man.


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## manticle

No worries.

Try downloading the EZ water calculator spreadsheet (metric version) and comparing it with the brun water calculator. Between the two of those, you should get a reasonable picture of what you should be looking at, provided you have an up to date water quality analysis for your area.


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## Truman42

When do you guys add your salts? I use EZ water calc and tick the sparge box. I add the mash salts at dough in but was told to add the sparge salts straight to the kettle. I didnt understand why or how this would work?


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## manticle

I add some salts to the kettle mainly for flavour although the extra calcium is beneficial to the boil and to fermentation. Boil pH isn't totally irrelevant and is measured in some breweries i believet but something I would only sweat over if trying to brew the perfect lager or for nerd points/interest. I've never measured mine and I'm not sure how much a bit of calcium would alter the pH. If boil pH is an issue, you might need to look at acid additions but that's outside my current realm of knowledge.

I add mine to the mash and another dose to the kettle. If my water were particularly alkaline, I would be adding salts or acid to my sparge water as well since alkaline water is not great for sparging but Melbourne water doesn't really warrant it (although nothing wrong with calculating appropriate amounts and dosing the water too).


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## pk.sax

Always just added the salts to the hot liquor tank and used it through the brew. I don't bother adding more salt to the top up water though.
I'd second that carbonate hasn't been a good experience so far but a few different things went wrong with that brew.


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## ramu_gupta

Link to the 2012 water analysis.


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## Spiesy

I'm trying to plug these figures into BeerAlchemy (my brew software), but cannot seem to find the 'bicarbonate' levels. Does anyone know if they're masquerading as anything else in the report above?


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## manticle

Total alkalinity expressed as CaCO3


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## mabrungard

Bicarbonate in ppm is equal to the Alkalinity ppm (as CaCO3) divided by 1.22. 

For example: 122 ppm alkalinity (as CaCO3) is equal to 100 ppm bicarb.


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## Spiesy

manticle said:


> Total alkalinity expressed as CaCO3


thank you, Sirs.


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## Bribie G

For a good calcium hit, MHB and others in the Hunter area have been experimenting with Calcium Lactate and getting good results. It's the stuff they put in "calcium enriched" fruit juices so food grade. I'll ask him about it when I'm down there next.


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## mabrungard

Bribie G said:


> For a good calcium hit, MHB and others in the Hunter area have been experimenting with Calcium Lactate and getting good results. It's the stuff they put in "calcium enriched" fruit juices so food grade. I'll ask him about it when I'm down there next.


If you like the flavor of lactic acid in your beer (lactate) when you overdose it, then you will love calcium lactate. It adds 2 ppm of lactate for every ppm of calcium added. 

Fortunately, lactate is a typical component in beers and is often at low concentration. Most people can start to taste lactate at about 300 ppm. So you should be able to add calcium lactate to achieve modest calcium levels without reaching the lactate taste threshold. Unfortunately, you can't really rely on being able to keep the lactate level low with judicious dosing of calcium lactate since there are many other sources of lactate in the brewing process. A brewer is wise to avoid boosting the calcium level by more than 50 ppm (100 ppm lactate) to try and stay below the taste threshold.


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## going down a hill

Does anybody have the link to the website in which you can track the reservoir where each part of Melbourne is supplied. I tried to find it on melb water's website and came up with nothing concrete. Seeing I don't know where the water is coming from I can't punch in the numbers with any reliability from the water report. 

Or if someone knows where the fine people of Preston get their water source from that would be appriciated as well. 

Cheers.


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## Black n Tan

I got my info from the Citywest Water website under water quality which covers my area. Check you local providers website.


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## going down a hill

Cheers BnT, I hadn't thought about that. Yarra Valley water state that its Silvan / Sugarloaf - Summer & Sugarloaf - Winter. 

YV's website hasIt an overall image of who gets what across melbourne. I'd post the pic but I'm on my phone, so here is the link, go to page 8. 

http://www.yvw.com.au/yvw/groups/public/documents/document/yvw1002794.pdf


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## manticle

going down a hill said:


> Does anybody have the link to the website in which you can track the reservoir where each part of Melbourne is supplied. I tried to find it on melb water's website and came up with nothing concrete. Seeing I don't know where the water is coming from I can't punch in the numbers with any reliability from the water report.
> 
> Or if someone knows where the fine people of Preston get their water source from that would be appriciated as well.
> 
> Cheers.



I've had similar trouble but they are responsive to emails asking that exact question. Usually between 2 and 7 days should see a polite, informative response.


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## going down a hill

Cheers Manticle, no need the internet delivered.


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## manticle

Love the internet


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## Mclovin

Does anyone use campden tablets to remove chlorine? or does a 5 min boil do the job?


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## manticle

Melbourne water will cope fine with boiling or even heating to strike in most instances. I don't boil and get no chlorephenol issues whatsoever - have tasted their effect before though - pretty damn distinctive.

Campden if you need to deal with chloramines which Melbourne water does not contain (although extended boiling and RO filtering can also help with this)


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## Mclovin

I didn't think we needed them. I always pre-boil but.


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## heyhey

going down a hill said:


> Does anybody have the link to the website in which you can track the reservoir where each part of Melbourne is supplied. I tried to find it on melb water's website and came up with nothing concrete. Seeing I don't know where the water is coming from I can't punch in the numbers with any reliability from the water report.
> 
> Or if someone knows where the fine people of Preston get their water source from that would be appriciated as well.
> 
> Cheers.





Black n Tan said:


> I got my info from the Citywest Water website under water quality which covers my area. Check you local providers website.





going down a hill said:


> Cheers BnT, I hadn't thought about that. Yarra Valley water state that its Silvan / Sugarloaf - Summer & Sugarloaf - Winter.
> 
> YV's website hasIt an overall image of who gets what across melbourne. I'd post the pic but I'm on my phone, so here is the link, go to page 8.
> 
> http://www.yvw.com.au/yvw/groups/public/documents/document/yvw1002794.pdf


I know this is a bit of a post dig. But I've worked with Yarra Valley Water, Melbourne Water, Goulburn-Murray Water and Goulburn Valley Water. I'd like to explain a little about the varaibility of Melbourne's supplies.

The water in Melbourne is supplied by Melbourne Water in bulk, to the retailers (Yarra Valley Water, South East Water, City West Water). Melbourne Water has the ability to supply the whole of Melbourne from a variety of storages and there is usually seasonal change to what dam/storage is supplying when. Melbourne is supplied by dams in Gippsland (Tarago), the Upper Yarra Valley, excraction from the Yarra River (Sugarloaf), Desal, Cardinia etc. Due to these variations of catchment, water mineralisation does change. That said, due to the closed catchment nature of the dams (not the Desal), relatively all mineralisation comes from the ground naturally. Melbourne's water from all catchments has sweet f'all treatment, with most disinfection done by UV at Winneke (Sugarloaf).

BUT, as Melbourne Water supplies bulk, the retailers need to handle the water to your tap.

The retailers have a distribution and storage (no catchment) network to transport the water. The water will change it's mineral composition through its trip from dam to tap.

Residences in Warbuton will have massively different water quality compared to those in Altona even though they might be getting supplied by the same storage. People in Warburton would likely have more suspended heavy metals because the particles would not have had time to settle into sediment. Those in Altona could have relatively stale water because of the time it takes to get to their tap through so many closed conduits.

From experience, Yarra Valley Water spot dose chlorine in some storages due to water retention times, pipe conditions, etc.

Even the pipe network will contribute to mineralisation. Pipes in use can include Cement Lined Mild Steel, Polypropylene, Polyethylene, Ductile, Cast, Grey Iron unlined or lined with cement (all lined in Melbourne), Asbestos Cement, Epoxy or Enamel lined, stainless, etc, etc. These pipes, particulaly metalic pipes can contribute to mineralisation.

The variables with Melbourne's supply might be relatively insignificant, but anything you obtain from the authorities, I'd take with a grain of salt. Pun not intended, but I'll claim it.

Anyway, Melbourne's water is one of the most untreated supplies in the World.


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## technobabble66

manticle said:


> I've had similar trouble but they are responsive to emails asking that exact question. Usually between 2 and 7 days should see a polite, informative response.





heyhey said:


> ...
> The water in Melbourne is supplied by Melbourne Water in bulk, to the retailers (Yarra Valley Water, South East Water, City West Water). Melbourne Water has the ability to supply the whole of Melbourne from a variety of storages and there is usually seasonal change to what dam/storage is supplying when. Melbourne is supplied by dams in Gippsland (Tarago), the Upper Yarra Valley, excraction from the Yarra River (Sugarloaf), Desal, Cardinia etc. Due to these variations of catchment, water mineralisation does change. That said, due to the closed catchment nature of the dams (not the Desal), relatively all mineralisation comes from the ground naturally. Melbourne's water from all catchments has sweet f'all treatment, with most disinfection done by UV at Winneke (Sugarloaf).
> 
> BUT, as Melbourne Water supplies bulk, the retailers need to handle the water to your tap.
> ...
> The variables with Melbourne's supply might be relatively insignificant, but anything you obtain from the authorities, I'd take with a grain of salt. Pun not intended, but I'll claim it.
> ...


Followed Manticle's advice & emailed YVW to find out which storage facilities supply to my house in Reservoir (as i brew beer & need to have an idea on water composition, etc).
The response:
...........
[SIZE=11pt]Unfortunately, we are unable to determine which reservoir supplies a particular property as water may merge from more than 1 supply.[/SIZE]
Not sure if this link from Melbourne Water would help, but shows all reservoirs and areas.
http://www.melbournewater.com.au/whatwedo/supply-water/reservoirs/Pages/water-storage-reservoirs.aspx
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]If you have any further enquiries please reply to this email or phone 1300 304 688, Monday to Friday 8am to 8pm and Saturday 8am to 4pm.
...............

Did i just get an idiot who thought I was asking for the name of a single reservoir supplying my particular house at a given time, or is it really meant to be impossible for YVW to identify roughly the combination of reservoirs supplying a house/neighbourhood??

Oh, and that link has a very vague indication of Silvan & Sugarloaf supplying the north of Melb - which is the 3rd or 4th YVW webpage i've seen to give a vague indication, all of which seem to be slightly different to each other.

Can i assume the water supplied to the north is all roughly the same? In which case, what reservoir/store do others go by in the north of melb?

FWIW, the YVW '11/'12 Annual Report suggests the Reservoir/Bundoora area is supplied by a combo of Silvan + Sugarloaf + Yan Yean. How the hell do i amalgamate all of them - just average it out? :huh:


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## Black n Tan

when I went to my local suppliers website (citywest water) and searched for water quality, I found a report that detailed the water quality data from sampling stations in each suburb/region. So I was able to find actual 2012 summary data for my local area (ascot vale) and didn't have to rely on Melbourne Water data and working our which catchment the water was coming from. Have you had a look at the Yarra water website to see if they offer something similar?


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## technobabble66

Black n Tan said:


> ...
> Have you had a look at the Yarra water website to see if they offer something similar?


Yep.
Nup.

though i'd luv to be corrected if i've missed something...

I've seen a few reports stating Reservoir is part of Area 14 in YVW's jurisdiction. However, what supplies Area 14 is open to interpretation depending on which report you read. As above, i think the latest one states a combo of Silvan + Sugarloaf + Yan Yean supply Area 14. However, to complicate this, that particular report also graphically indicates Reservoir is split into Area 14, and partly into Area 9 (Preston/Thornbury).

Oh, and another minor technicality: i think YVW's website/reports give analysis for all reservoirs except Sugarloaf (which is the only definite supplier to my specific area). :wacko:

So, i'm not sure if i'm being too anal/pedantic with this & should just average out between Yan Yean & Silvan, or if it's actually important to get this info correct.
FWIW, i also notice the analysis reports state the figures are derived from data between 2007 to 2012. During which time we've had a major drought & the water quality varied quite a bit. 


*Sigh* 
i think i should just chuck in a few g's of gypsum & acidulated malt, and go worry about something else... :mellow:


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## manticle

I emailed melbourne water rather than my direct supplier.
You may need to average it out over a couple of reservoirs but even the high looking values will likely be very low.


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## Black n Tan

This is what CityWest Water supply and it provides everything you would need (Ca, Cl, SO4, hardness, alkalinity, Mg etc etc). Pity Yarra Water don't provide the same.

http://www.citywestwater.com.au/documents/drinking_water_quality_report_2012.pdf


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## heyhey

Melbourne Water will supply the retailers from where ever they have water to provide, the retailers (CWW, YVW, SEW) will do the same from their own supply provided by MW.

Yarra Valley Water will be the hardest to determine supply because they can receive from anywhere, the others, particularly CWW cannot. Most of Yarra Valley Water's water will come from catchment dams of Melbourne Waters, into Melbourne Water's Sugarloaf dam and through the Winneke Water Treatment Plant at Sugarloaf then into the Melbourne Water distribution network (including other large tanks and storages not listed on their site as they are not catchments, eg. Frankston Res, Mitcham Res, etc), then into the YVW distribution network including their tanks, then into the reticulation network.

As for the water quality districts with YVW (http://www.custdetail.yvw.com.au/waterquality/default.asp?style=business) they are not storage specific, they are just where distribution goes into a reticulation network.

What is the most complicating factor in all of this is now we have the desal, they seasonly change the direction of the water flow in Melbourne in the distribution mains. This does change quality and water make up significantly.

All the retailers can and will change supply lines daily in some cases. They might receive water from Melbourne Water for a week or two, top up there own storages, then distribute as demand requires. This would mean the same reservoir water is split up, put through different systems, but potentially go to the same end location.

When you have a look at large water users or food/beverage producers, like Amcor, CUB, SPC, etc (the one's I'm farmiliar with), they all have inhouse water monitoring and treatment. Because varaition does occur at any point in time.

You can read what ever report you want, but its a yearly, maybe monthly average at best.

Your only a homebrewer, so accept there are variables you can't control to the nth degree.

In summary:
Melbourne Water will not know what water got to your house. They can't even accuratley speculate.
The retailers (YVW, CWW, SEW), don't really know what water Melbourne Water supplied them. But they might be able to tell you what tank was supplying your area at a particular time. Big might, but it won't mean much.


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## Goon Boy

Anyone got a recent Melb Water analysism, ie in last few months?


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## Yob

Found this >LINKY<


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## technobabble66

Awesome!

There is just one minor problem: trying to determine which reservoir(s) supply which areas. 

I still aren't sure which one supplies my part of Reservoir. I think it's a combo of Silvan, Yan Yean & Sugarloaf...?
(For Area 14, From the YVW 11/12 annual report)


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## technobabble66

Either way it's roughly bugger all of anything, I s'pose. When it comes to water, Melbs is very soft!


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## manticle

You can email melbourne water and get specifics as to your water source -as you say, often a mix.


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## Spiesy

Yeah I had a lengthy phone call with Yarra Water - who supplies my area. Spoke with a nice bloke who mentioned 3 different sources, depending on a number of different factors. Got all three reports and average them out... all you can do, I guess.


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## technobabble66

Meh, just spoke to the head of the Water Quality team at Yarra Valley Water, a guy called Brian Cole. He was very helpful but couldn't ultimately supply any exact quantities of the water components due to the mixing Spiesy mentioned above.

FWIW, the info referred to is in the link Yob posted in post #42 above.

Basically Brian was confirming *Reservoir 3073 is supplied by the combination of Silvan + Sugarloaf + Yan Yean*.
*EXCEPT Yan Yean has been offline for the last few years* due to poor quality of taste in the supply, and while water levels are good in the other reservoirs, will probably remain offline indefinitely.
*ALSO, Sugarloaf = Winneke* in the reports (Winneke is the treatment plant at Sugarloaf reservoir.
*Finally, the supply to a particular location (e.g.: my house) on any given day varies between the 2 reservoirs quite a bit* because the water supply system operated by Melbourne Water is quite dynamic. So depending on who's using a lot or a little water, the supply to that location could be coming mainly form one or the other reservoir, or a more even combo of both.

Basically it looks like i'll have to stump up for a decent pH meter.

The main ions vary a bit between Silvan & Sugarloaf/Winneke, but are generally all quite/very low in the grand scheme of things (as mentioned by manticle et al previously). 
The main thing that seems to vary between the 2 supplies is the Alkalinity, which is obviously of major concern. Hence, i'll simply need to get a pH meter to be sure. Bugger it.

Any ideas for the cheapest good pH meter??


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## heyhey

Thanks for confirming what I was trying to say previously.


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## technobabble66

True that. 
Just reread your earlier post, Heyhey, and I think I pretty much rewrote what you'd said previously - I thought I'd scanned the last page or 3 before posting but somehow missed yours it seems :lol:
Anywho, I s'pose at least it's handy to have it all confirmed by YVW's top water quality guy (I believe). 

Basically, in Melbourne, you can assume there's v little of any minerals, but the pH/Alkalinity can vary (unpredictably) enough that a brewer needs a pH meter. Simples.


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## heyhey

Yep pretty much. I worked with Brian Cole and he's being doing it long enough to know what he's talking about.

As you said, you can safely assume that Melbourne's water contains very little mineralisation, but there is variation due to the numerous reservoirs, retention times, chlorination rates, etc. It's all a bit different to here in Shepparton where we only have one water treatment plant that runs 24/7 and two relatively small potable water reservoirs. We only get seasonal variation depending on what the Goulburn River is doing. 

I believe the industry in Melb (breweries, paper manufactures, food processors, etc) all run their own water treatment plants and analysers due to water quality variation.


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## BrutusB

For anyone that get's their water supplied by south east water you can check: https://secureapp.southeastwater.com.au/waterquality/

Put your address in there and you'll get some up to date analysis.


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## citizensnips

Tried to find an email address on South East Water to ask them about my local area info. Does anyone happen to have a recent report for the Moorabbin / Bayside area? Or even an email address I can write to to enquire. Trying to find some water profile info and not having much luck with their site. 
Cheers


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## Black n Tan

citizensnips said:


> Tried to find an email address on South East Water to ask them about my local area info. Does anyone happen to have a recent report for the Moorabbin / Bayside area? Or even an email address I can write to to enquire. Trying to find some water profile info and not having much luck with their site.
> Cheers


Have you looked here https://secureapp.southeastwater.com.au/waterquality/


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## citizensnips

Yeah it provided pH and the hardness of the water however was hoping for calcium, magnesium, sodium, chloride...Basically what my very limited water knowledge tells me is important (judging largely of the beersmith tool h34r: ).


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## srm

I found some historic information on the data you want on P28 of their 2012 -2013 and 2013 - 2014 annual reports.

http://southeastwater.com.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/AboutUs/Annual_Drinking_Water_Quality_Report_2012-13.pdf

http://southeastwater.com.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/AboutUs/WaterQualityReport2013-14.pdf


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## Danscraftbeer

Slap me here for throwing questions that may border on blasphemy but.. All the best beers made around the world just used what they had yeah? When you try to match a water profile on some software your just trying to get close to the water (that they had on hand). Because they made good beer. Or did the brewers then treat their water as well? So if great beer was made with melbourne water would that put us in the software's water profiles to be copied too?


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## GalBrew

Melbourne water is quite deficient in calcium, that's the main issue that needs to be addressed. I don't think people will be trying to emulate 10ppm of calcium.


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## citizensnips

srm said:


> I found some historic information on the data you want on P28 of their 2012 -2013 and 2013 - 2014 annual reports.
> 
> http://southeastwater.com.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/AboutUs/Annual_Drinking_Water_Quality_Report_2012-13.pdf
> 
> http://southeastwater.com.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/AboutUs/WaterQualityReport2013-14.pdf


Cheers srm, this is pretty much what I was after.


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## OutbackNash

Hey guys, I've got access to triple filtered water at my work (I work at a lab), is this great- or could it remove a bunch of important minerals in the process since its 'triple' filtered.


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## Blind Dog

Personally I treat single filtered Melbourne water as pretty much a blank canvas, as it has so little mineral content in the 1st place. I then add various salts containing calcium and magnesium to get the balance of my water where I want it to be. Getting the pH of the mash right is also important, and may be affected by the filtering process (I don't know the answer, but if I measure the mash pH and adjust to around 5.2, I'm not sure I need to)


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## BrutusB

With the news of the desalination plant coming online shortly, I wonder if it will have any impact for us as brewers? (Article: http://goo.gl/82W1mI)
Assume the reports we rely on from water authorities will not be as accurate.

There's a few interesting articles around about brewing with desalinated water, however I'm assuming ours will be a mix of local dam/desalinated:
https://goo.gl/Gdp1zJ


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## Jrrj

Beat me to it BrutusB. I've been wondering exactly the same thing - how will we get our hands on updated water reports and what salt-addition changes will be needed.


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## BrutusB

Jrrj said:


> how will we get our hands on updated water reports and what salt-addition changes will be needed.


I'll give South East Water a call today and ask them if they have any recommendations. I'm going to assume the only real way to know is to get a water report done, but my worry is that the 'blend' can/will change 'at will' which will render the report useless. 

Edit - Update:

Spoke to South East Water's quality and analysis team and they've stated that if Desalinated water is added it will be 'Shandied' at the Cardinia reservoir, therefore we should expect similar results to the annual reports etc. They also said they routinely test, basically daily. They suggested to keep an eye on the results coming from: https://secureapp.southeastwater.com.au/waterquality/, if the 'EC' changes it's an indicator that the disolved salts etc may have changed and then we should give them a call for the results of the latest detailed analysis.


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## timmi9191

Anyone noticed or got firm data on the water change from the desal?

My water Ph has dropped 0.9 Since my last brew.


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## Grott

timmi9191 said:


> Anyone noticed or got firm data on the water change from the desal?
> 
> My water Ph has dropped 0.9 Since my last brew.


You mean you actually use your desal plant in Vic ! We in SA built a monster so we could say we have one.


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## Nullnvoid

timmi9191 said:


> Anyone noticed or got firm data on the water change from the desal?
> 
> My water Ph has dropped 0.9 Since my last brew.


Has any water been delivered yet? I haven't seen any flow into the dam.


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## timmi9191

Nullnvoid said:


> Has any water been delivered yet? I haven't seen any flow into the dam.


Well I dont actually know, Im assuming it is..


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## RelaxedBrewer

timmi9191 said:


> Well I dont actually know, Im assuming it is..


I am pretty sure the desal plant has been in standby mode since 2012.

Where in Melbourne are you?


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## timmi9191

RelaxedBrewer said:


> I am pretty sure the desal plant has been in standby mode since 2012.
> 
> Where in Melbourne are you?


The goverment ordered water back in March, so as far as I know its producing water. see post #61


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## Nullnvoid

I think the government recently signed to buy some water but I don't think it's due to flow until the end if the year. But I could be wrong. 

It flows into Cardinia dam and it's no higher than normal. 

Interestingly I have heard rumours that it can't be pumped out of Cardinia so it will only go to people in the south east, not northern or Western suburbs but I don't know how factually accurate that information is.


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## timmi9191

Nullnvoid said:


> It flows into Cardinia dam and it's no higher than normal.


Thats my understanding too




Nullnvoid said:


> Interestingly I have heard rumours that it can't be pumped out of Cardinia so it will only go to people in the south east, not northern or Western suburbs but I don't know how factually accurate that information is.



Dont know how acurate that is, as I believe what is due to happen is that the desal will supply Melb Metro and that is then back filling Geelong which will back fill Ballarat which are both low. But I could be completely wrong.

Which if it is currently supplying water, would explain no increase in cardinia as it is being pumped out around Melb


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## timmi9191

http://www.youtube.com/user/MelbourneWater


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

I should get my water meter back this weekend*, I'll be able to tell you if there's a step change.



* It's been on loan to a small commercial brewery for whom I did some consulting work. I'm travelling up there this weekend and hope to get it back.


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## Danscraftbeer

I'm more interested in knowing if we will get any of that trillion dollar water we are paying for to our tap one day.
I filter it anyhow.


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## Nullnvoid

timmi9191 said:


> Which if it is currently supplying water, would explain no increase in cardinia as it is being pumped out around Melb


When they were first testing it I could see it come down the spillway which I pass everyday. Haven't seen any water come down since so that's why I think none has come yet.


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## timmi9191

Any update on the desal delivery??

Noticed another big drop in tap water ph


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## RelaxedBrewer

Just finished brewing and my tap water was the lowest it has ever been ~6.0 ph. That is way lower than normal (and yes I checked the calibration of my ph meter).

Pretty sure there must be a lot more mineral content in the water and it would be screwing up my water calculations. Is there any way of getting a report with the change? Or a report for you suburb?


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## timmi9191

The south east water web site has some very detailed local analysis reports rather than the generic Melbourne water reports.

Where you located RB?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

RelaxedBrewer said:


> Pretty sure there must be a lot more mineral content in the water and it would be screwing up my water calculations.


TDS at my tap in Willy is 81 ppm this morning, very close to previous values (it's been 78 - 80 the last few months).

There's no room for a significant lift in mineral content with a TDS of 80.


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## RelaxedBrewer

I am in Preston. We have yarra valley water. I have never been able to find a water report from them that includes all of the relevant minerals. They do say that preston uses a mix of Sulivan and Sugarloaf which are both generally very low in mineral content (from the melbourne water report).

However, according to reports Yarra valley took some of the de sal water.


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## RelaxedBrewer

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> TDS at my tap in Willy is 81 ppm this morning, very close to previous values (it's been 78 - 80 the last few months).
> 
> There's no room for a significant lift in mineral content with a TDS of 80.


Not sure if Willy is short for Williamstown, but if so you would be using different water to me in Preston.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

I doubt that the TDS is significantly different from yours. I can test yours if you don't believe this.

BTW Melbourne water deliberately raises the pH of the water supply for various reasons*, usually by calcification (liming). Maybe this was offline for a bit. If so the mineral content will have gone down, not up.


* Partly to counteract the acidification caused by chlorination and flouridation, partly to reduce corrosion on old pipework.


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## timmi9191

I also believe the merri region still has many open waterways and is therefore subjected to higher than "usual" treatment at times. I remember a picture of one of those water ways with bags of rubbish that had been thrown in.


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## wide eyed and legless

I was just wondering if the profile of Melbourne water has changed any since the De-Sal plant started piping water to reservoirs? Anyone got any current data?


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## TwoCrows

It is stated that de sal water is being delivered to Cardinia res. Only issue is it doesnt work.


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## Nullnvoid

TwoCrows said:


> It is stated that de sal water is being delivered to Cardinia res. Only issue is it doesnt work.



What doesn't work? The desal plant has been working for months. 

At the moment I believe it's only topping up Cardinia, they haven't transferred to any other dams yet.


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## Blackman

I think you will find it doesn't run all the time. They just fire it up when they get an order.


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## wide eyed and legless

Correct the government orders the water they need and the De-sal plant delivers, it has been happening for a couple of years now and it has all been going into Cardinia. Just that they have placed the biggest order so far for this year and I noticed that BF water report was from 2016 so was wondering if the profile had changed.


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## Nullnvoid

This last order the Government placed was equal to 1/3rd of Melbournes water usuage. It's been pumping it out for at least the last 2-3 months 24 hours a day*.

I drive past the dam every day and can see the outlet. The dam is the fullest I have seen it in the last 12 years of driving past daily.






*Cannot accurately assure it's been 24 hours a day as I don't sit and watch it, but it's always going when I drive past 2-3 times a day.


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## wide eyed and legless

Found it.
https://www.melbournewater.com.au/water/health-and-monitoring/drinking-water-quality


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## Nullnvoid

wide eyed and legless said:


> Found it.
> https://www.melbournewater.com.au/water/health-and-monitoring/drinking-water-quality



Still a bit out of date if it was last tested in January. You would have thought the desal water would change it a bit


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## wide eyed and legless

Nullnvoid said:


> Still a bit out of date if it was last tested in January. You would have thought the desal water would change it a bit


I haven't checked it against BF as yet, I think it may be only annual they do a report I am not sure.


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## razz

wide eyed and legless said:


> I haven't checked it against BF as yet, I think it may be only annual they do a report I am not sure.



I usually update my water in BS3 each year when the report comes out. The reality is this, the content that we are interested in as brewers doesn’t change much from year to year. Melbourne water is pretty light on for content and the slight changes from year to year means that what we add in for a particular type of brew won’t change much either.


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## wide eyed and legless

razz said:


> I usually update my water in BS3 each year when the report comes out. The reality is this, the content that we are interested in as brewers doesn’t change much from year to year. Melbourne water is pretty light on for content and the slight changes from year to year means that what we add in for a particular type of brew won’t change much either.


I just realised razz, you aren't on Cardinia water are you?


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## razz

wide eyed and legless said:


> I just realised razz, you aren't on Cardinia water are you?



I’m in Mornington, pretty sure our water comes from Cardinia also.


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## razz

wide eyed and legless said:


> I just realised razz, you aren't on Cardinia water are you?



I should have checked before, we get water from Tarago.
As you were! [emoji23]


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