# No-chill... just leave in the urn?



## jpanic (27/12/13)

G'day

I am currently brewing all-grain BIAB. 

I finished a cook last night quite late, and was about to transfer from the urn (BIAB, 40L stainless steel urn) to a no-chill cube to start fermenting the next day, when we thought - why not simply seal up the urn and leave it as-is overnight, then straight into the fermenter the following day?

I brew with two others and we discussed it and couldn't see the downside. So we sealed up with a foil layer between the lid and the rim of the urn, and it went into the fermenter today eventually with the yeast starters (which had been made from a chilled 2L extract from the wort).

The benefit is that is simply saves a step, and avoids having to sanitise then cleaning a no-chill cube later. 

Can anyone see a downside to this, provided you are careful getting a reasonable seal on the urn?


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## manticle (27/12/13)

Others have done this successfully. The original idea of no chill was to put hot wort into a sealable container from which you could expel the majority of air.

The more you stray from that idea, the greater the risk but if your seal is good and your vessel is clean and sanitary then it's not greatly different.


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## citizensnips (27/12/13)

Ive done in 10+ times with no problems. There isn't really a downside asides from greater risk of infection however if your method works then not really.


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## Crusty (28/12/13)

I think it's pushing the boundaries a bit too far.
Others have done it successfully & you may have as well but the risk of infection as the wort begins to cool is pretty high.
I really wouldn't make this a standard practice in your brewing schedule as it may catch you out sooner or later.
It takes a couple of minutes to starsan a cube & I'd be resting easier when going to bed knowing the wort is pretty safe in the no chill cube.
Each to their own though & hopefully you won't have any issues.


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## Mr. No-Tip (28/12/13)

I don't NC much anymore, but to me it was always a small impost to have a sealed container with a really low chance of contamination. This method can probably work ok 9 times out of 10, or 99 times out of 100, but it still seems like a bad risk compared to effort to me. I can see where you're coming from...sometimes I'll seal up a curry in the pot it was cooked in through pure laziness...but I know it will keep better if I move it to tupperware...


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## recharge (28/12/13)

Plus I don't think I'd like to be committed to pitching next day in case something comes up.

Rich


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## Bribie G (28/12/13)

The sight tube can't be guaranteed sterile. As well as the sight tube, the only time I've left the wort in the urn to cool, in a Birko, I got an infection. On dismantling the tap I found a manky bit of hop material that didn't smell too good.


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## Black Devil Dog (28/12/13)

How long does it take to transfer your hot wort into a sanitised cube?

2 minutes?

Probably less time than it took to ask whether it is ok to do what you did.


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## citizensnips (28/12/13)

The main reason I no chill in my kettle is because I personally don't like putting boiling liquid into plastic....even though I'm well aware it's hdpe or what not and is meant to be able to handle those temps. I just didn't want to write this and create some form of shit storm. Don't get me wrong if it were stainless or something I would do it in a heart beat but each to their own, I just like to use as little plastic as possible..that's just me


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## Ross (28/12/13)

The stainless fermenter does not have an airtight seal & hence there is a risk of contaminants being sucked into the head space, so no it is not good practise.
Chances are that anyone doing this method has a higher bacterial level in their beer whether they can taste it or not.
PLEASE follow best practise & try & make the best beer you can. Shortcuts like this are really unnecessary & will come back and bite you.

cheers Ross

P.S. If you do create an airtight seal with boiling wort in a stainless urn, you'll come back in the morning to a buckled urn.


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## fcmcg (28/12/13)

Without getting a mod strike... There are heaps of pages of members who have done exactly what you have done and then got an infection and then wondered why...search it if you want but, after all that work , I wouldn't want to waste some wort...
As suggested , it may work once or twice or even 10 times but I reckon it will only take one infection for you to go back to the cube...


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## fletcher (28/12/13)

higher infection risk, and as ross says; a true airtight seal will mean you buckle and ruin your urn, and the need to pitch the next day (no ability to store it longer than after it's at pitch temp).

weigh that against the possibility of it being okay and working and to me the negatives outweigh the positives.

i wouldn't. my 2c.


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## Glot (28/12/13)

Know what you mean about the plastic. I don't like dumping boiling wort into plastic either. Supposed to take the heat but gets soft still.
When I chill, I put a couple of sheets of cling wrap on top and the lid on. Seals it but the wrap sucks in like a diaphragm. I chill my pot in a water bath. Thinking of going to an immersion chiller but concerned about what gets in during that 20 or 30 minutes.


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## jpanic (28/12/13)

Thanks all for the feedback and good advice. Will take this all into consideration and avoid in the future.


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## Mr. No-Tip (28/12/13)

I'd have thought the folks that have concerns about plastics and hot liquids would just use a chiller?


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## manticle (28/12/13)

Ross said:


> P.S. If you do create an airtight seal with boiling wort in a stainless urn, you'll come back in the morning to a buckled urn.


This is a very good point that I missed. I automatically thought of a standard pot with glad seal and lid when I read the OP. No chill is already a shortcut that is proven to work. Follow the process as tried and tested.

Anyone concerned about hot wort and hdpe is being paranoid. There is no basis for being alarmed.


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## mosto (28/12/13)

I read this thread yesterday and went with the consensus of why risk it. However, I got the chance to brew today for the first time in weeks, and, during the boil, went to empty the Starsan solution out of my only cube which had been sitting in there since my last brew. It had gone a reddish colour and smelt like a septic. No way I was putting my wort in that so, with this thread in mind, I've covered with foil, put the lid on (converted crab cooker, not an urn), and hoped for the best. Usually build a Coopers starter from part of the wort for this brew but, obviously, need to pitch ASAP, so will use US05 instead. Hopefully it works, but not a practice I want to repeat.


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## citizensnips (29/12/13)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> I'd have thought the folks that have concerns about plastics and hot liquids would just use a chiller?


Cannot bring myself to waste that water, its a lot, I should really figure out a way to avoid chilling in the kettle but it works for the time being


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## goomboogo (29/12/13)

citizensnips said:


> Cannot bring myself to waste that water, its a lot, I should really figure out a way to avoid chilling in the kettle but it works for the time being


There are ways to chill without wasting any water. A small tank and a pump recirculating the cooling water means no loss. Short of that, collecting the water and using it later means no waste. I use between 60 and 70 litres of water to cool a 20-22 litre batch of beer to pitching temperature with a plate chiller. This water is used on the vegetable patch. My old top-loading washing machine used that much water in a wash. So, one batch of beer cooled and one load of washing done with the same water.


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## Mr. No-Tip (29/12/13)

citizensnips said:


> Cannot bring myself to waste that water


I don't waste a drop. Green bin from bunnings holds a batch worth and then gets dumped in the yard. The other day I realized too late that I hadn't emptied and just got the missus to directly water the yard as I chilled. The long length of out hose got it back to a decent garden safe temp.


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## Donske (29/12/13)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> I don't waste a drop. Green bin from bunnings holds a batch worth and then gets dumped in the yard. The other day I realized too late that I hadn't emptied and just got the missus to directly water the yard as I chilled. The long length of out hose got it back to a decent garden safe temp.


I do pretty much the same thing, bought an IBC for about $100, water gets used on the trees and grass, makes chilling water neutral for me.

It does take a huge amount of water to get anywhere even close to pitching temps though, closest I can get at the moment is about 30° and that's using about 200L of water.


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## Mr. No-Tip (29/12/13)

Donske said:


> It does take a huge amount of water to get anywhere even close to pitching temps though, closest I can get at the moment is about 30° and that's using about 200L of water.


Wow, really? I've been getting the shits with only getting to 24 degrees with the tap on full and the ball valve on half. Still, it's only 50l till the kettle is empty. I should be more thankful for my Canberra mountain water, I guess!


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## manticle (29/12/13)

200L of water to water the lawn?
Depends how often you brew I guess.


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## Markbeer (29/12/13)

A better option is just no chill into plastic fermenter. I hope the tap on your kettle had been recently stripped and cleaned.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (29/12/13)

I did this for ages. Works well as long as the lid gets hot. Winter was great but now summer has hit iI stays to hot in my 50lt pot. I've gone to the plastic Jerry cans from Bunnings. My two cents.


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## dr K (6/1/14)

For best results minimise any chance of infection, getting your wort to pitching temp as quickly as possible is one of many ways to minimise the chance of infection.
Without wanting to lead by example I have on more than a few occasions finished the boil. cooled by an immersion chiller/whirlpool arrangement then simply pitched the yeast directly into the boiler (which resides in my brewhaus without a doubt the must disgustingly unsanitary known) the resulting beer being usually whilst not awrd winning more than tolerable read on a level equal to my average quick ale.

K


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## manticle (6/1/14)

No chill is very sanitary when done correctly dr k.

Has other advantages too. For me 2 things - identical wort available for active starter and getting wort to exact desired pitching temp prior to commencing an exothermic process.


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## GalBrew (6/1/14)

manticle said:


> No chill is very sanitary when done correctly dr k.
> Has other advantages too. For me 2 things - identical wort available for active starter and getting wort to exact desired pitching temp prior to commencing an exothermic process.


Got to agree there, especially like the fact that your cube can be stored at whatever pitching temp you desire.....great for lagers.


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## manticle (6/1/14)

Also NC does use a lot less water. I know from previous posts that drK disgarees but I have chilled and no-chilled and it is absolutely the case.

If you have means to re-use the water (and i don't mean watering the lawn) then it's a non issue but for those of us without tanks or orchards, etc, it is a water saving mechanism.

Where NC does fall down is in capturing hop aroma and flavour for super fresh highly hopped styles and while there are ways and means, chilling is possibly an easier way to go about it. Also the increased bitterness thing but that is easy enough to adjust if you find it necessary. I don't but I rarely brew anything over 50-60 IBU and usually more like 30-40.

Both have their place as techniques for making beer that suits the brewer.


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## dr K (6/1/14)

Of course no chill is sanitary... it too is only one of the many ways to minimise infection, but I was suggesting that infection may not lurk under every bed. Having said that I should add a small rider to my previous post....
On each occasion: the weather was moderate (late Autumn or mid Spring) I used a lot of yeast and pitched nutrient as directed and generally transferred at 3 - 4 days. At no time was it deliberate each time was a result of a highly punctuated brew-day (visitors, sudden errands, assorted emergencies and SNAFU's, falling asleep drunk and so on), given the above seasons it was night time at pitching) . It could be argued that given the punctuation, the on again off again nature (except for the cooling of courrse) of the brew day the ale was never destined for greatness anyway. In each case the beer was cooled for longer than I may have normally to ensure the best (available) conditions for yeast pitching, the seasonal conditions helped during the night and by morning fermentation had well started whether conceived or not all balls available were in my favour. So lets face it, a conjurers trick.
Goes without saying ..do not do this at home .....unless you count your balls first....

K
ps...of course no chill uses less water....you think we chillers chiller with ice blasters !!!!


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## manticle (6/1/14)

I remember a thread from you once suggesting once you accounted for cleaning the cube, etc that the water saving was minimal. I use maybe 5-10 L of water to clean and rinse a cube (an amount of water I can re-use for my small garden, cleaning the bath or some other thing).

I have often NC'ed the dregs from the kettle into a stainless pot and let settle outside the fridge overnight with a glad wrap lid (also weather that's mild), decanted the clear wort the following day, re-boiled, cooled (ambient) and used for my starter so maybe not disimilar to your pitch in kettle idea. The kettle would be quite sanitary after the boil anyway so if your chilling regime was efficient, I can't conceive of why your method wouldn't be just as good as chill, transfer or NC.

Does that mean you were fermenting on hot break though?


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## dr K (6/1/14)

Manticle, I am wondering who is taking the piss out of whom at the moment!!!!
Of course I (in my "method") was fermenting on hot break, and there is no doubt that excessive hot break is not good for beer and is not good for fermentation (although a little helps fermentation) same can be said for cold break but in differing proportions.
In an NC cube the hot break not left in the kettle (and unless the wort settled for a while before transfer there will be quite a bit) will settle to the bottom, I guess in a matter of days, it is an assumption but I guess the settling is a function of both cooling and time. Thus decanted from the cube some days or weeks later most of the hot break is left behind.


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## manticle (7/1/14)

Not taking the piss at all although I'll admit I think I misinterpreted the intention of your first post.


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## Wimmig (7/1/14)

I've been doing NC for a bit now due to lack of time. I use one of the food grade willow units from Kmart, cleared with starsan and ensure I pitched within 24 hours. I also ensure to use food grade tape on the threads of the unit to ensure sealing (can squeeze out oxygen with legs while doing up with jeans, though with proper steri no need).


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## mosto (7/1/14)

mosto said:


> I read this thread yesterday and went with the consensus of why risk it. However, I got the chance to brew today for the first time in weeks, and, during the boil, went to empty the Starsan solution out of my only cube which had been sitting in there since my last brew. It had gone a reddish colour and smelt like a septic. No way I was putting my wort in that so, with this thread in mind, I've covered with foil, put the lid on (converted crab cooker, not an urn), and hoped for the best. Usually build a Coopers starter from part of the wort for this brew but, obviously, need to pitch ASAP, so will use US05 instead. Hopefully it works, but not a practice I want to repeat.


Just an update, this brew has pretty much finished fermenting, awaiting cold crash towards the end of this week. Smelling and tasting fantastic (been weeks since I've been able to brew, can't wait to have some fresh, home-crafted beer on tap again).

So this method CAN work. However, as I said above, it's something I did out of necessity rather than by design, and not something I'd be confident in doing to often.


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## wide eyed and legless (7/1/14)

Got to agree with citizenships about plastic, I wish there was some alternative that was as cheap even though they are labelled food safe the word safe should be used loosely, microwave plastics are safe as long as they aren't put in the microwave, plastic babies bottles are now considered not as safe as once thought, cling wrap should not be used in the microwave.
I think we should all be given medals for using plastic the way we do.


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## Mr. No-Tip (7/1/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Got to agree with citizenships about plastic, I wish there was some alternative that was as cheap


I suppose you could no chill in a keg?


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## slcmorro (7/1/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> microwave plastics are safe as long as they aren't put in the microwave, plastic babies bottles are now considered not as safe as once thought, cling wrap should not be used in the microwave.


Meh. There's enough shit floating around in the air, that you're going to die of something sooner or later anyway. I'd say you inhale more carcinogens when breathing regular air when going to the supermarket, than what you'll ever ingest by heating heat-safe plastic. Not to mention filling your car with fuel. 

If you're going to be super anal about something like not heating foodgrade plastic, you can't really justify it unless you breathe purified air, drink nothing but pure filtered water and eat food that's 100% organic and transported and grown in a sterile bubble. In my opinion.


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## wide eyed and legless (7/1/14)

Never said it killed you, just fucks with the hormones and causes alzheimers by the time your 60 you've
forgot if you was born male or female.


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## manticle (7/1/14)

If I was concerned about plastic, I would either chill or investigate no chilling into cornies which should handle the pressure as far as I know.


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## bradsbrew (7/1/14)

manticle said:


> If I was concerned about plastic, I would either chill or investigate no chilling into cornies which should handle the pressure as far as I know.


With cornies you need to be carefull of the poppets being sucked in whilst cooling. Best way to combat that is to make a loop using the gas and beer disconnects and short length of beer/gas line.


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## slcmorro (7/1/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Never said it killed you, just fucks with the hormones and causes alzheimers by the time your 60 you've
> forgot if you was born male or female.


Anecdotal evidence, surely?


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## mosto (8/1/14)

So we're worried about plastic possibly leaching a toxin into a liquid that we're going to convert to a toxin (alcohol) :huh:


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## wide eyed and legless (8/1/14)

Spot on mosto, we will have to endure the plastic related toxins for a toxin we enjoy.


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## citizensnips (16/1/14)

mosto said:


> So we're worried about plastic possibly leaching a toxin into a liquid that we're going to convert to a toxin (alcohol) :huh:



A desirable toxin we intentionally create versus an unwanted toxin we try to avoid


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## slcmorro (16/1/14)

slcmorro said:


> Anecdotal evidence, surely?


No answer. I'll presume that's a no.


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## wide eyed and legless (17/1/14)

slcmorro said:


> No answer. I'll presume that's a no.


 Just Google it and check it out for your self heaps of evidence out there, its like anything made from petro chemicals non are actually a health benefit.`


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## citizensnips (3/2/14)

Oright so after some more thinking I had an idea relating to the whole 'If you don't like chilling in plastic and don't have 200L for an immersion chiller issue'. Theoretically wouldn't a pressure cooker be a suitable vessel to both brew and no chill in. Something such as http://www.allamericancooker.com/allamerican930pressurecooker.htm could be used as a kettle then sealed after with the pressure release valve engaged to stop as Ross said the kettle buckling in on itself. If one were to find a 50L stainless pressure cooker, could that be the ultimate all in one vessel? not sure if it even exists but hey it's an idea.
Thoughts


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## wide eyed and legless (3/2/14)

I personally don't think it necessary to have an air tight seal, after all a lot of people just put it in a fermenter and put a tea towel over it, if the fermenter is sanitised correctly I am sure that over night cooling prior to pitching would be fine, those who say that it can lead to infections getting into the beer, which it can, but has it come from air born infections or an unsanitary fermenter , that is the question.


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## Bridges (3/2/14)

Surely there is a way to use some sort of reversed air lock on a sealed stainless vessel to let it suck in air as it cools to avoid buckling etc.

Edit...after further thought...Although I guess in sucking in air could still bring nasties with it, whereas in fermentation its pushing out, positive pressure...
Yeah stupid idea...


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## MHB (3/2/14)

Stick an HEPA filter onto a gas disconnect, you just need a couple of centimetres of gas line - let the keg breath in through the sterile filter as it cools.

Fermenting on the trub is a really silly idea, I'm not worried about cold-break but hot break wont do anything good for your beer.
The yeast will (not might) metabolise some of it putting high molecular weight protein back into the brew - removing this shit is one of the top 4 reasons for boiling a wort in the first place.
Iso-Alpha will stick to the extra trub, so you are removing some (up to 30% is lost in a normal ferment) more of the bitterness that we boil a wort to get in there.
It can and usually will coat yeast and sloe the ferment.
It will contribute to staling, assuming you want to keep your beer until it is mature.

I could go on but there really are lots of good reasons to get off hot break and no reason other than laziness not to.
Mark


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## manticle (3/2/14)

> I personally don't think it necessary to have an air tight seal, after all a lot of people just put it in a fermenter and put a tea towel over it, if the fermenter is sanitised correctly I am sure that over night cooling prior to pitching would be fine, those who say that it can lead to infections getting into the beer, which it can, but has it come from air born infections or an unsanitary fermenter , that is the question.


Why couldn't it come from the air? Or the tea towel?

I've heard of people covering fermenting beer/wort with a tea towel (not something I'd like to do myself) but not wort left to cool before pitching.

Only no chill infections I've had have been from improperly sealed lid and subsequent sucking in of air.


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## wide eyed and legless (3/2/14)

Why couldn't it come from the air? Or the tea towel?
Or an unsanitary fermenter that is what I said,I never said it couldn't come from the air, no one can state where an infection has come from, the tea towel was born out of necessity for early home brewers, no heat exchangers, no plastic containers, no s/steel pots they had to make do with what was available.
If infections were rife I would assume any early home brewer would have thrown in the towel. (not the tea towel)


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## wynnum1 (3/2/14)

At what temperature is the wort not going to get infected because if not time short could allow to drop naturally to this safe temperature before transfer .


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## Ross (3/2/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I personally don't think it necessary to have an air tight seal, after all a lot of people just put it in a fermenter and put a tea towel over it, if the fermenter is sanitised correctly I am sure that over night cooling prior to pitching would be fine, those who say that it can lead to infections getting into the beer, which it can, but has it come from air born infections or an unsanitary fermenter , that is the question.


Sorry, but this is not fine, it will certainly reduce the risk (assuming tea towel has been thoroughly sanitised), but it will not stop all airbourne contaminants & you risk losing your brew. The best way, & one of the simplest is using a sealed vessel (corny, S/S fermenting bucket or whatever) & use a sterile filter as MHB advised in post 51. The rest of his post is worth taking heed of as well, he knows what he's talking about.

Cheers Ross


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## carniebrew (3/2/14)

Chilling is water intensive, sure...but 200l of water costs about 60c, so it's not really a cost issue. You might whine about the environment, but seriously, are those whining taking into account the 1,500 litres of water it takes to produce 1kg of rice, or the 700 odd litres it takes to produce 1kg of wheat?

I chill, and my household usage of water is still well under the arbitrary target of 155 litres per person per day in my household (as our govt was recently demanding us to aim for). And given how much they're charging me for that bloody useless desal plant in Wonthaggi, I refuse to feel guilt dammit.


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## wide eyed and legless (3/2/14)

I don't think anyone has mentioned fermenting on the trub, the question was asked about letting the wort cool overnight instead of putting the wort through a heat exchanger or a plastic no chill cube, I think if he had a keg or corny MHB'S advice would be the one to follow, I didn't know he had either of those.


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## MHB (3/2/14)

In fact you are right, I read another thread "Fermenting in boiler" and didn't go back to the start of this one before posting, sorry for any confusion - my bad.
Still not best practice to let the wort cool on the trub - not as bad as some ideas but still not optimal.

I did exactly this when I first got into AG, just covered the kettle with a bed sheet (about 6 layers) dipped in SO2 to prevent bacteria getting in. There was a noticeable improvement in my beer when I started chilling, and later when it got invented no chilling, and back to chilling...
Mark


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## Bridges (3/2/14)

Just had a quick search for a suitable HEPA inline filter found this would work perfectly as described by MHB in post #51 above. Pricey option I'll stick to no chill in a cube thanks.


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## MHB (3/2/14)

I has in mind something like this



See your LHBS, or from the Keg King website
Mark


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## Bridges (3/2/14)

Nice one. Thanks MHB, at that price, it's definitely something I'd like to try... I don't have issues with plastic but I am a bit OCD about cleaning. The little burrs and seams that are part of all manufacture of cubes and fermenters drive me bonkers.
One of those in place of an air lock like for chill in a stainless fermenter could be the way I roll going forwards. Then as it cools swap to an air lock at pitching time.


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## Ross (3/2/14)

No need to switch to an airlock unless worried about foam going through filter. They work great as air locks as well

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## citizensnips (3/2/14)

Quality ideas here. I don't keg as yet however am going to be building a keezer soon so am considering just buying the 1 keg for no chill atm. However in practise all you do is make sure the keg is clean then pour the boiling wort in, lock the lid in place and attach a quick disconnect with a hose to one of them $5.95 air filters and it will suck in air and not buckle? What about releasing steam pressure? How does it all work without blowing me and my keg up


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