# Is There A 'how To Cider' With A Beer Brew Kit Faq?



## fletcher (21/8/12)

Just as the title states, is there one? I've searched the site but can't find a how-to, so I googled it and came up with a bunch of interesting sites. 
I was just asking as I've just got a new coopers DIY beer kit and wondered how adaptable to cider it would be?
Thanks all, and sorry if this sounds like a stupid thing to ask
Fletcher


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## bum (22/8/12)

Yep, you can totally make cider in a Coopers DIY fermenter, so long as you were looking at a cider that doesn't need extended (and I mean really long) fermenting/conditioning times. If you're going to do a kit cider or an all juice cider (have a search for "Simplest Cider" in this forum for some great beginner tips) then that fermenter will be more than satisfactory. On the other hand if you were after a farmhouse, naturally fermented cider then you might want to be looking at fermenting/conditioning times much longer than is suitable in PET - in which case, I'd suggest you hold off on that idea until you've got a bit more experience with the easier methods first.

Good luck with it.


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## fletcher (22/8/12)

bum said:


> Yep, you can totally make cider in a Coopers DIY fermenter, so long as you were looking at a cider that doesn't need extended (and I mean really long) fermenting/conditioning times. If you're going to do a kit cider or an all juice cider (have a search for "Simplest Cider" in this forum for some great beginner tips) then that fermenter will be more than satisfactory. On the other hand if you were after a farmhouse, naturally fermented cider then you might want to be looking at fermenting/conditioning times much longer than is suitable in PET - in which case, I'd suggest you hold off on that idea until you've got a bit more experience with the easier methods first.
> 
> Good luck with it.



thanks for the words of wisdom mate; I think you're right. I'll have a go at the simple styles and work my way up from there  thanks for the heads up, I figured it'd be somewhere but just didn't know what to look for


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## Greg.L (22/8/12)

When researching cider keep in mind there are basically 2 types of home cider. The first is the cider from storebought juice, basically the same as kit and kilo beer, but will finish very dry without the beer non-fermentables. Some people add spices and flavours to make it more interesting (?) You will get a recipe to follow.
The second is cider from apples grown and harvested specifically for cider, milled and pressed to get the fresh juice. This is basically the same as white winemaking, trying to source the best fruit and preserve the flavours. With the extra flavour it doesn't taste as dry as the first type, and there are endless variations of fruit cultivar and fermentation treatment. Generally you don't add flavouring to this type of cider, and there isn't any recipe. It is made only once a year and is different every year.


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## Greg.L (22/8/12)

One thing to keep in mind when researching cider on the internet is that Americans don't use brown sugar in their cider recipes. When they say brown sugar they mean raw sugar, they don't have a product like our brown sugar. I know it sounds weird, but that's the USA. They don't even have SR Flour and they call coriander cilantro. When you see the cider recipes on the US cider sites, they don't mean to add caramel flavour, just raw sugar for a little extra flavour. I don't know what brown sugar tastes like when fermented, and I don't want to know, but if you want to use brown sugar start off with small amounts.


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## fletcher (22/8/12)

haha thanks Greg. yeah I know Americans are a weird bunch...my wife is American haha. all good mate and thanks for your tips. I daresay my first batch/attempt will be the very simple juice type variety as I live in the city and have no way of getting cheap nice apples to crush and use myself. it looks amazing that type but it's not feasible for my situation. I'm happy to try the juice variety to start off - using perhaps brew enhancer and such (or whatever seems to work best) in my kit, and then expand from there as my confidence and knowledge of the process grows...it's so damn addictive and exciting


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## fletcher (22/8/12)

what would be your recommendation to make as close to an over-the-bar type cider (bulmers, rekorderlig, magners etc) using my kit and whatever else was needed? I know I've probably made everyone cringe with those types but my knowledge on cider is from those only...cant wait to expand and taste exiting new homemade flavours!


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## Luek (22/8/12)

Rekorderlig etc clones will require a buttload of artificial flavours. 
Sweet cider is very difficult to make when using bottles (I assume you're bottling) because most sugars you want in a brew, will completely ferment out ("turn" into alcohol and CO2). The easiest option is to back sweeten in the glass, meaning add your sweetener of choice (apple juice, cordial, etc) in the glass at time of serving

I've never backsweetened because I like a dry cider.

Just letting you know also, cider generally tastes pretty bad without a bit of aging. If you have tastes like mine you're in for a world of hurt if you intend to pitch champagne yeast on apple juice and drink it within a month or so.


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## hendog88 (22/8/12)

fletcher said:


> what would be your recommendation to make as close to an over-the-bar type cider (bulmers, rekorderlig, magners etc) using my kit and whatever else was needed? I know I've probably made everyone cringe with those types but my knowledge on cider is from those only...cant wait to expand and taste exiting new homemade flavours!



i usually just use store bought preservative free juice, if you want something a bit sweeter use the berri apple and pear, i sometimes throw in a can or two of straight pear juice. i use nottingham or a cider yeast. too easy. they arent super sweet though.

the search funtion at the top left is your friend, use it. theres heaps of threads on what yeasts to use and different ideas on what juices to use, thats how i got started.

Cheers


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## Tim (22/8/12)

Easiest way to make cider is via a product called OzTops. Its a kit that has yeast and special pressure release cap. You pitch yeast and ferment out in teh standard juice bottle.

All kit and kilo ciders taste like a$$, don't even bother. OzTops are the way to go I'm to lazy to google them, but I assume they are still around.


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## Luek (22/8/12)

Just use cling wrap + rubber band over the bottle, save like $30-50 or whatever that kit costs


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## geneabovill (22/8/12)

There's OzTops products all over eBay. Also, whatever you do, don't ferment with the Super Yeast 24hr yeast. I believe Bulmers bottle condition their cider so you can probably steal the yeast outta the bottle and make a starter. Otherwise HBSs will usually carry cider yeast.


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## Luek (22/8/12)

Bulmers don't have sediment... only bottle conditioned cider I can think of is that old rosie one you can get in 500mL or even 2L from Dan Murphy's


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## fletcher (22/8/12)

wow thank you guys! much appreciated!

i'll probably do a bit of a search and just try an easy juice method if possible first and pretty much, see how it goes...then adjust from there. you've all given some fantastic tips! very much appreciated. i do like the sweeter variety but would brands like magners and bulmers be considered sweet? and 5 seeds and that crud? that's more my style - is that dry? i'd have thought so...(rekorderlig is nice but a little on the sweet side so i couldn't have more than 1 without cringing a bit).


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## manticle (22/8/12)

Simplest way to make a reasonable quality, sweeter than bone dry, Kit based cider:

Take your cider kit. Try something like Black Rock.

Instead of the water and sugar it suggests you add, add some different brands of clear supermarket apple juices. You can use some of the cheaper stuff as long as it has no preservatives. If you are not trying to be super tight, add in a few different bottles of preshafruit (as many different varieties as you can find - lovely juice but expensive). If you can find some preservative free pear juice or apple and pear juice, add a few litres in too.

If you have a home brew shop nearby, buy some diammonium phosphate and add a bit to your mix. Ferment cool (say around 16 degrees - cooler than the kit probably suggests). Allow the brew to ferment out properly, chill the whole lot down to 2 degrees for a week if you can, then prime and bottle as normal.

The kits usually have artificial sweetener in them which holds the cider back from drying right out. You can make cider just with juice and yeast but unless you employ various tricks, it will dry right out so adding a kit will help retain sweetness.


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## pk.sax (22/8/12)

Bottle of cloudy apple juice from the store (heaps of varieties out there, pick one you like). Pour out a glass, drink (optional), tip in a pinch of white wine/champagne yeast.

Replace cap with cling wrap and rubber band, let it ferment in the bottle. when its done/close to done, add a little sugar and cap it with the normal bottle cap. Let carbonate for a day or two. Refridgerate. Serve out of the bottle, don't shake the yeast lees too much.

There is only so much cider in a 2L bottle of juice so it will be gone before old yeast at the bottom becomes a problem.

If you like it, start doing larger batches with mixes of juices etc as mentioned above.


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## Greg.L (22/8/12)

I don't think you will get an actual dry cider at Dan's. They are all sweetened to some degree, mainly because they would taste like crap otherwise. The easiest way to sweeten is backsweeten with sugar after fermentation finishes, then bottle and pasteurise. If you keg, you can try cooling and racking after fermentation finishes, after a couple of months there won't be much yeast left, you can backsweeten and keg, keep cool (3-5C) and you will get at least a month or 2 to drink it before the sugar ferments away.


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## pk.sax (22/8/12)

Greg, Dan's had Aspall's Suffolk dry cider. Quite liked it on the occasions that I bought it. Didn't catch any sweetness in it.
Also, Napoleone's Perry. Quite nice.


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## fletcher (22/8/12)

practicalfool said:


> Bottle of cloudy apple juice from the store (heaps of varieties out there, pick one you like). Pour out a glass, drink (optional), tip in a pinch of white wine/champagne yeast.
> 
> Replace cap with cling wrap and rubber band, let it ferment in the bottle. when its done/close to done, add a little sugar and cap it with the normal bottle cap. Let carbonate for a day or two. Refridgerate. Serve out of the bottle, don't shake the yeast lees too much.
> 
> ...



Thank you to everyone who's replied...I'm liking the sound and ease of the above option and the oztops option too. Practicalfool, is there a specific yeast you'd recommend for this? And bought from a brewery shop or from anywhere else in particular?
Cheers!
Fletch


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## nathan_madness (22/8/12)

If you are looking for sweet. Use a liquid product called sugarless available at Coles and woolies follow the directions on the bottle. Its non fermentable. Add it to you brew after fermenting.


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## pk.sax (23/8/12)

Get to a home brew shop and ask for white wine yeast or champagne yeast. It's lavlin something but lots of shops repackage... Reason for this is that this yeast continues to ferment at cold temperature, so, as you put it in the fridge after a relatively short conditioning time it will continue to ferment and re-carbonate between drinks 

Obviously, what you taste at the start will be a slightly sweet cider and towards the end a completely dry cider.

I'm not a fan of artificially sweetening my food so this is a good compromise from me that is simple to do  cider is great when drunk fresh. It's awesome when aged too but fresh cider is very nice if done nicely (I've never made a cider from a kit).


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## fletcher (23/8/12)

thanks mate! i'm on the case. gonna be hitting up my store tomorrow - it's a good hike for me sadly/stragely - so i'll get all my gear then!

thanks everyone for their help. you guys are the best.


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## fletcher (14/9/12)

i just attempted a quick cider with an apple and cranberry 2.4L berri juice. hopefully it'll be okay, although i'm not 100% on my calculations.

took out 2 cups of juice, added 1 cup of corn sugar, put in a few shakes of the yeast (not measured), champagne yeast and put some cling wrap over the top with elastic band. 

it's fairly airtight, would this be okay? 

how long should it be kept for before adding more sugar and carbonating for a day or two?

OG was 1072 - how much attenuation should i expect from that yeast? wyeast. any estimates on approximate final alc/vol? i don't want to destroy myself with an overly stupid %age. and given that, when is best to drink it so as to retain some sweetness? 

sorry for the stupid questions. once i get it downpat i'm sure i'll be fine.

thanks in advance


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## bum (14/9/12)

fletcher said:


> it's fairly airtight, would this be okay?


Yep. The gas will get out.



fletcher said:


> how long should it be kept for before adding more sugar and carbonating for a day or two?


Assuming that you're bottling and not naturally carbing a keg you should leave it until it is fermented out completely. Your hydrometer is your friend. [EDIT: I just noticed your volume properly, ignore talk of bottlng/kegging]



fletcher said:


> OG was 1072 - how much attenuation should i expect from that yeast? wyeast.


Never used Wyeast's champers variant (didn't know they had one) but dry champagne yeasts are known to get all-juice ciders down to 1.000 (lower is not unheard of).



fletcher said:


> any estimates on approximate final alc/vol?


Shit-tonnes. Over 9% is likely.



fletcher said:


> i don't want to destroy myself with an overly stupid %age. and given that


Too bad.



fletcher said:


> when is best to drink it so as to retain some sweetness?


If you're bottling forget the idea of stopping it early. Add lactose to the brew (at bottling (easy if bulk-priming) or secondary, too late to add it at the beginning now, obviously) or serve with a big splash of apple juice on serving.


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## bum (14/9/12)

Yeah, I just went back and read the idea you're following. You're on your own here. Probably a good way to make cheap white wine-ish.

Each to their own, I guess.


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## fletcher (14/9/12)

thanks for your fast reply mate, yeah i put too much sugar in...stupid of me there...i didn't wanna bottle, just drink it fresh after x days/week-ish, maybe add a little sugar and carbonate. by stopping it short of a full ferment i'm guessing then the alcohol won't be so high?


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## bum (14/9/12)

Yeah, stopping it early will lower the alc content. Will also stop a few other thing the yeast does from occurring but maybe that's not an issue for 2L of cider(?).

Not sure what the benefit of adding priming sugar is going to be when the juice is not completely fermented out. If I were to undertake such a brew I'd just seal it up ever so slightly before I thought it was ready then when the bottle was tight I'd make it as cold as possible for a few days then drink it quick-sticks. Seems like such a ridiculous amount of guessing to me though and a lot of time for little return.


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## fletcher (14/9/12)

bum said:


> Yeah, stopping it early will lower the alc content. Will also stop a few other thing the yeast does from occurring but maybe that's not an issue for 2L of cider(?).
> 
> Not sure what the benefit of adding priming sugar is going to be when the juice is not completely fermented out. If I were to undertake such a brew I'd just seal it up ever so slightly before I thought it was ready then when the bottle was tight I'd make it as cold as possible for a few days then drink it quick-sticks. Seems like such a ridiculous amount of guessing to me though and a lot of time for little return.



yeah i can see what you mean re adding sugar.

i'll chalk it up to trigger-finger stupidity, and now just an experiment, and see how it goes after a few days. thanks a bunch mate.


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## pk.sax (14/9/12)

Yea, my Cider-goon takes no prisoners.. err... sugar! Just let it sort of half ferment out and put it in the fridge. Drink fresh-ish.

Original idea was from the German 'favourite' - apfel schorle (carbonated apple juice), fresh and very refreshing. Semi-fermented cider is very similar except for some alcohol kick. A nice regular low alc cider in the fridge if you're into that sort of thing.


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## fletcher (15/9/12)

practicalfool said:


> Yea, my Cider-goon takes no prisoners.. err... sugar! Just let it sort of half ferment out and put it in the fridge. Drink fresh-ish.
> 
> Original idea was from the German 'favourite' - apfel schorle (carbonated apple juice), fresh and very refreshing. Semi-fermented cider is very similar except for some alcohol kick. A nice regular low alc cider in the fridge if you're into that sort of thing.



Yeah...stupid putting the sugar in. I wasn't sure of the alcohol content for sugars in juice normal juice, and kinda wanted a bit more...then dropped in too much. I know it depends on yeast but OG of the juice was about 1040...what would this have ended up as?


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## pk.sax (15/9/12)

Rocket fuel 

What to do. What to do...

Let it ferment dry as Bum suggested. Or close to dry, cap and let carbonate and fridge.

Cut it with fresh juice in the glass if the high alcohol is detracting from the taste.


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## fletcher (15/9/12)

practicalfool said:


> Rocket fuel
> 
> What to do. What to do...
> 
> ...



How many days is that? Haha,. It's bubbling with small bubbles now. I would guess about 3-4 days?


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## pk.sax (15/9/12)

If you want a totally rough out of the arse visual indicator, when the bubbles stop.

Although, if you refrigerated now, after 5-7 days outside fermenting, it should give you a sweet cider anyway.


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## fletcher (15/9/12)

practicalfool said:


> If you want a totally rough out of the arse visual indicator, when the bubbles stop.
> 
> Although, if you refrigerated now, after 5-7 days outside fermenting, it should give you a sweet cider anyway.



haha, thanks. i'll pop her in the fridge now. and _not_ put the original cap on right? or if i understand correctly, if i do, that should be ok, so long as it's refrigerated because that would slow fermentation quite a lot. right? sorry for all the questions.

i'll probably look to drink it tomorrow and test my luck hahaha. thanks for all your help. the next one i start tomorrow will purely be JUST the juice and no sugar haha. 

what's the step by step for that?

1. take out a few cups of juice
2. pop in the yeast
3. leave with cling wrap for (how many?) days if i want a decent tasting, not too dry but not overly sweet (kinda in the middle) cider
4. after x days, refrigerate with normal cap, with maybe x amount of sugar for carbonation?
5. drink?

thank you for all your help practicalfool, it was your idea i followed and i know i can get it right i just got too excited haha


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## pk.sax (16/9/12)

Hey fletcher

It is a ridiculously simple way of making cider. Keep it simple.

I don't even cling wrap the tops, use the original bottle cap from the start. I just release the gas a couple of times a day. When it stops going hard in half a day I stop doing this and put it in the fridge. Great things about using the original juice bottle:

Bottle, as bought from shop is sterile inside. Avoids having to sanitise.
Bottle is flexible, takes some blowing up or squeezing the air out.
Hard to create a bottle bomb with in the fridge.
It's effin simple to do!
Doesn't get boring with loads of girly juice tying up kegs or shelf space.

We don't have much cider apples available here anyway, without that the ciders everyone makes taste just the same anyway. I've been trying what I can, travelling, drinking from a small cidery or two, useless. If I want a complex cider, I'll buy it.


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## fletcher (16/9/12)

practicalfool said:


> Hey fletcher
> 
> It is a ridiculously simple way of making cider. Keep it simple.
> 
> ...



i like the sound of that.

thanks mate. i'll hit that up next time i do one (tomorrow). you sound like the kinda man i'd have a great few too many with. thanks for the advice. i'm in the city myself, no cider apples here. couldn't be bothered. i'll just hit up the juice too. i'll let you know how the next one goes! 

thanks again. drink on


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## michaelcocks (1/10/12)

fletcher said:


> i like the sound of that.
> 
> thanks mate. i'll hit that up next time i do one (tomorrow). you sound like the kinda man i'd have a great few too many with. thanks for the advice. i'm in the city myself, no cider apples here. couldn't be bothered. i'll just hit up the juice too. i'll let you know how the next one goes!
> 
> thanks again. drink on



Just wondered how this one turned out

Apart from very very alcoholic...

Was it dry ?

What was the FG ?

Drinkable or rocket fuel ?



Thanks


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## fletcher (10/10/12)

Hey mate, I had small sweetener sachets that I added to a largish glass, but the fact that I had to do that should indicate it definitely wasn't the nicest haha.

It was drinkable but I'll be honest and say I'll take much more care next time. I only drank it not to waste it and because even though it was bad, it was booze. Turned out to be about 10-11% next time I'd try a few more suggestions but for proper ciders next time I won't short cut and I'll ferment in a FV and add all the normal shit


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