# All Grain Vs Kit?



## bekhenry (9/12/07)

I'd like to try an all grain brew - i've only ever used kit beer - what are the benifits of all grain? 
Please excuse me if this is a dumb question.... i am blonde 

Bek


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## Stuster (9/12/07)

Right. Bit of a can of worms there. Personally, I found my beers tasted much better when I switched to all grain (AG). It does depend on the style, with kits and some added extras being fine for some styles. There's a lot more work though, more equipment, etc. If you want to have a go, the first step is to have a read of How to brew and then come back with all the questions you have, do some searches, post some questions, see another local brewer do it, and then you'll be ready to start.


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## mika (9/12/07)

As Stuster has mentioned, read, read, read. You are actively encouraged to attend brew days and Christmas case swaps, there you can taste the All Grain difference and decide if it's right for you.
Fill in your location too, there may be someone just down the road who's happy to have some company while watching the wort bubble in the pot.


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## braufrau (9/12/07)

It might be worth starting with a partial. That way you can do the whole mash and boil process without investing a lot
of money in equipment. Then you can sit back and think about how you'd go all grain.

Look at this threa and the links in it.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...t=0&start=0

Also you might want to read the Brew in a Bag (BIAB) thread as an alternative way to get into AG.


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## Maxt (9/12/07)

If all you have ever eaten is McDonalds, then McDonalds tastes good. Once you have eaten at a good restaurant a few times, your tastes buds get educated. You can still eat McDonalds, but you taste the flaws and short comings.
You can still get bad all grain beer (go to a club competition and see what I mean), but it is usually fresher, tastier and without the kit beer extract 'twang'. 
Horse for courses. All Grain is not for everyone. It takes a lot of time and is outrageously addictive.


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## bekhenry (9/12/07)

Thanks guys - i better start reading! 
I thought you didnt need a lot of equipment for all grain!?
I live in near sutherland (sydney) If anybody is around i'd love the help!

Bek


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## homebrewworld.com (9/12/07)

Sounds like you need to try EzyBrew 'Fresh Wort' or similar.
All grain solution to kit brew blues !
Unashamed plug,


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## goatherder (9/12/07)

Don't worry about the plug, that's a good call homebrewworld.com.

Try a fresh wort kit. Brew it as you would a kit, but it's a real live AG beer. See if you like the difference.

They are available from any respectable home brew shop.

Another difference with AG beers that isn't about taste or quality - there are some beers you just can't brew with a kit. Very pale pilsners for example. The process used for producing the malt extract in kits tends to darken the colour a little. If you want a really pale beer, AG is the only way.


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## Aaron (9/12/07)

A fresh wort kit may help you produce a better beer but it isn't going to help you to get to all grain brewing. The procedure is more basic and more like making cordial than a regular kit beer is. Read "Hot to Brew" and have a go at a partial mash if you are really interested in grain brewing. You probably have the equipment for a partial at home.


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## homebrewworld.com (9/12/07)

Aaron : 'The procedure is more basic and more like making cordial than a regular kit beer is'.

I Agree its very basic, but hey we are not making cordial or regular beer here!


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## dr K (9/12/07)

oK...you need some experience watching and talking to others.
You need equipment.
Now lets say you work on 22litre standard batches.

1.You will need something to mash in.
2.You will need something to lauter in.
3.You will need something to boil in
4.you will need something to boil your wort.
5.You will need a way to (ideally) quickly chill your finished wort.
6.You will some thing to ferment in.
7.You will need something to package in.

Presumably you have 6 and 7 covered already.
1. and 2. can be done in the same vessel so lets look at that first.
Mash/Lauter Tun
Buy a cheap 22-25 litre "esky" like device for $18 -$22.
Buy a 150mm long externally threaded 19mm brass tube (I think they are called nipples lord knows why), a decent valve to go on the outisde, some aluminium flyscreen to make a filter and a t-thing, as well as some nuts and washes.
Fit the nipple assembly with tap to the esky via a whole you drilled and hey presto a $35 mash tun.
Batch sparge and hey double pesto a $35 mash lauter tun.

Of course if you chose the path of the BIAB then you can skip this step and $35 (plus labour) in the kitty. You will need to factor in a swiss voile bag, what 2 meters at what $15 a meter =$30 plus again labour (I drill holes well but I do not double stitch well!!)

Something to boil in
A quality aluminium stock pot will give you far better service than a cheap SS one. An Al pot is easy to work and easy to move and will _not _give you alzheimers, its heat transfer is better to boot, your choice though. 
How big, well 22litres will be the result of boiling down about 27 litres of wort, you do not want a boil over so go for 36 - 40 litre pot, no idea of price guessing $100.
You need another tap and such, say $110.
Of course if you go the BIAB route you may need a larger vessel, 35 + litres of water plus 4.5 kg or more grain just aint gunna fit !!

To Boil it
I bought a 2 ring burner C/W hose and regulator from the markets a few weeks ago for $20, you need a gas cylinder and gas, else buy a heat stick for $80 (good long term investment).

A way to Cool your wort
10 years ago an immersion chiller was the easy option, and thats what I got, bot from scratch buy a plate heat exchanger, one of the sites sponsors has them and they are only round $100 ish. A lot of people on this site use no chill, I would not, but for your first few batches..why not

Assuming you are happy to buy freshly cracked grain, or have a mate who will crack for you all up costs are :


Tun or Bag: $ 30-35 (parts only)
Boiler: $ 110 - $150 (parts only depending on volume)
Burner: $ 20 - $ 90 (depending on markets or choice)
Cooler: $ 0 - $150 (your choice)

Either way less than $ 200 if you dare to tread the path of no chill and second hand burners.
Oh, in case you are wondering, even after this investment your beers will cost $ more per glass than kits....

K


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## devo (9/12/07)

Personally I found AG to be a lot more fun and interesting than simply opening a can of goo.


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## Aaron (9/12/07)

homebrewworld.com said:


> I Agree its very basic, but hey we are not making cordial or regular beer here!


I wasn't trying to say anything about your product. I wouldn't know the first thing about it to make any comments. The point I am making is that if you want to get into grain brewing making a wort kit is not going to assist you in making the transition as it is a more basic procedure than kit beers.  I would say it is a step backwards if you want to learn to brew.


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## matti (9/12/07)

kit= 30-45 minutes with limitations to what you can brew
AG= 4-9 hour FUN with unlimited choice of what you can brew.

Aahhh the romance of brewing and I have just began,.


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## goatherder (9/12/07)

Aaron said:


> I wasn't trying to say anything about your product. I wouldn't know the first thing about it to make any comments. The point I am making is that if you want to get into grain brewing making a wort kit is not going to assist you in making the transition as it is a more basic procedure than kit beers. I would say it is a step backwards if you want to learn to brew.



Fair point, but the original question was "what are the benefits?", not "how do I do AG?". The fresh wort kits were mentioned as a way to get a feel for what's possible if you take the next step.


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## Aaron (9/12/07)

goatherder said:


> Fair point, but the original question was "what are the benefits?", not "how do I do AG?". The fresh wort kits were mentioned as a way to get a feel for what's possible if you take the next step.


Actually, the original poster said he would like to try an all grain brew. Fresh wort kits are not going to help them do an all grain brew.


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## MVZOOM (9/12/07)

dr K said:


> Oh, in case you are wondering, even after this investment your beers will cost $ more per glass than kits....
> 
> K



Good advice, aside from the last point. My AG's (ie.. the simple ones!) cost around $10 for grain, $6 for hops and $2 for yeast, and the power cost to use the immersion heater.

So $18.... been a while since I bought a kit, but thought that a good kit + DME or whatever would have been more than this?

Cheers - Mike


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## joshuahardie (10/12/07)

MVZOOM said:


> Good advice, aside from the last point. My AG's (ie.. the simple ones!) cost around $10 for grain, $6 for hops and $2 for yeast, and the power cost to use the immersion heater.
> 
> So $18.... been a while since I bought a kit, but thought that a good kit + DME or whatever would have been more than this?
> 
> Cheers - Mike



I am guessing you are buying in bulk to get grain prices that low. My LHBS does not sell grain very cheap at all. It has made me doubt going into all grain, due to the added expense of grain over cans.

for it to be cost effective for me, I'll have to buy in bulk and invest in a mill..... so just another cost to factor.


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## roger mellie (10/12/07)

bek said:


> I'd like to try an all grain brew - i've only ever used kit beer - what are the benifits of all grain?
> Please excuse me if this is a dumb question.... i am blonde
> 
> Bek



Its Simple Bek - my 2 pesos worth.

All Grain Brewing gives you more control over what you are trying to brew and opens up a whole range of beers that you would struggle to make with goo. Gets you more involved with the science.

Doesnt mean you will make better beer
Doesnt mean you will make cheaper beer

Its fun though - get into it. 

RM


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## warra48 (10/12/07)

With kits, you assemble beer. You don't do the brewing, as the kit maker has already done that for you.
With AG, you are the brewer, and you are totally in control of the style etc beer you want to brew.
Yup, there are costs involved in setting up for AG, but it's no more expensive than a lot of other hobbies/sport (I spend a hellavu lot more money on my golf than I ever do on my brewing).
Looked at it in that light, you need to make a decision whether you want to invest a few $C, and the time, to pursue a hobby which will in most cases give you the beer you want, and generally better beer.
Only you can make that decision for yourself.


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## Rick (10/12/07)

I'll have to agree with the love afair part. As for I have to get my grain mailed to me or pick it up when in Adilaide but regaurdless I dont think I will ever do a kit again. I also dont realy see thepoint of doing parcials when all your doing is leaving out one ingredeant, might as well go all the way but thats up to you and what equipment and time you have access to.


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## tangent (11/12/07)

music to my ears Rick.
Partials are ruining a real beer with extract. There's no point when a real beer can be made easily at home without loads of equipment.
Look hard enough and someone on here even made an AG batch in a coffee plunger. Not enough to fill a keg but it's 100% AG beer.


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## Ducatiboy stu (11/12/07)

bek said:


> I'd like to try an all grain brew - i've only ever used kit beer - what are the benifits of all grain?
> Please excuse me if this is a dumb question.... i am blonde
> 
> Bek




The benefits are that " you made it all yourself, and you know exactly what went into it"

Bit like buying bread from the shop..or spending all day making it from scratch and knowing that all the hard work was all yours.

It is not a difficult thing to do, BUT I would strongly recommend that you go and watch someone do a full AG, ask 50,000 questions whilst doing so and get ready for the life changing event that is called "Your first AG berr"


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## blackbock (11/12/07)

tangent said:


> music to my ears Rick.
> Partials are ruining a real beer with extract. There's no point when a real beer can be made easily at home without loads of equipment.



Once you start getting into high gravity beers, the differences between AG and extract start to diminish, I think. How many RIS recipes out there call for ALL grain? And what about barley wine? Personally I couldn't tell the difference between an AG barley wine and an extract/partial mash version. They both taste just as sickly!


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## Rick (12/12/07)

THe best way to get into AG is to read How To Brew and then start brewing, make mistakes and learn. Ive made alot of mistakes so foar but nothing that wasnt drinkable, and I learn some thing new with every batch. Have fun with it.


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## hairofthedog (12/12/07)

bek said:


> I'd like to try an all grain brew - i've only ever used kit beer - what are the benifits of all grain?
> Please excuse me if this is a dumb question.... i am blonde
> 
> Bek


give a brew in a bag a go bek its the easyist & quickest way to get into ag & the benefits r endless totally fresh beer heaps more flavor & the worst ag u ever do will kill anything u can make with a can


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## paterson2929 (12/12/07)

Maxt said:


> If all you have ever eaten is McDonalds, then McDonalds tastes good. Once you have eaten at a good restaurant a few times, your tastes buds get educated. You can still eat McDonalds, but you taste the flaws and short comings.
> You can still get bad all grain beer (go to a club competition and see what I mean), but it is usually fresher, tastier and without the kit beer extract 'twang'.
> Horse for courses. All Grain is not for everyone. It takes a lot of time and is outrageously addictive.


McDonalds : Nice Analogy


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## tangent (14/12/07)

> your beers will cost $ more per glass than kits....



I disagree. I've made VERY cheap AG beers with Coopers yeast, high a/a hops and cheap ale malt. Cheaper than buying tins of goo and a better beer.


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## geoffi (14/12/07)

If you buy grain in bulk, it is much cheaper than kits/extract.

If you take into account the extra time it takes, of course, that makes things different. But do you want great beer or not? If your answer is yes, but your time is too short or too valuable to allow AG, forget cans and go with wort kits.


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## MVZOOM (14/12/07)

I've only done maybe 20 AG's, but ALL of them have been better than my best partial / extact / kit beer. Even the crap ones have been very good. It really is a different plane of result. 

Think Ikea shelving unit vs solid wood cabinet, made by a very motivated and skilled amatuer......


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## geoff_tewierik (14/12/07)

MVZOOM said:


> Think Ikea shelving unit vs solid wood cabinet, made by a very motivated and skilled amatuer......



So which is the better one?

Ikea is only as good as the person putting it all together


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## MVZOOM (14/12/07)

geoff_tewierik said:


> So which is the better one?
> 
> Ikea is only as good as the person putting it all together



I'm sure you understand where I'm trying to get to...


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## sanders4_ (14/12/07)

Bek, the proof is in the pudding. Try and track someone down that has an AG brew on tap, and give it a try. I tried an AG pilsner someone had and it blew me away. So fresh and good. That was the turning point for me, so try some.

Grain will cost you a bit more UNLESS your local homebrew shop has reasonable prices on grain OR you get set up for milling grain and buy in bulk. 

For me, I wanted to try it out, and didn't want to buy a mill straight up. It is cheaper to get cracked grain sent from QLD, with postage costing around $10 a brew (less for multiple orders of course) then it is to buy locally.

Just try AG beer and you'll have your decision.

Sanders


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## troydo (14/12/07)

I went to the july Qld Case swap and since then i have Canned my cans  and brewed 5 AG recipes, i have a 6th batch of grain on the way and i have a mill coming end of jan... sooo GOOD! sooo Addictive,,,, you will want to try everey recipe ever!


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## bear09 (14/12/07)

Good beer costs money. There is no way around this if you want truly good - great beer. Premium crafted beer costs $70 a slab. 35% of this is tax and 15% is profit for the brewer(and they deserve it because of this: "Berr is the easiest drink in the world to make but the hardest drink in the world to make properly"). This leaves $35 left over for 24 beers. I have found that I can get this down to about $25 for 24 beers. Now for those of you who say "screw that - he is crazy" - you still have much to learn. Home brewing craft beers should not be about making 60 stubbies for 10c a bottle. Its those people who ruin home brew and give it a shocking reputation. Beer made that cheaply tastes horrible. I meet people who rave about it - they have not developed their taste properly.

For me to make 24 high quality All Grain beers is costs over a dollar a bottle. This is still very cheap in my opinion. I could get this down using cheaper yeast and upping my batches but I only make 25 bottles at a time (smallies). You need top quality grain and hops. You need filtered treated water - PH tested. You need all the right nutrients and clearing agents. You need to be meticulous when brewing; time, temp, water amounts, cleanliness everything needs to be watched and you need to take your time. Rush a sparging/lautering session and you will pay later. I could go on for hours.

All grain can be set up for $100 but I have spent about $450. I have full control over everything and the beer in the end is utterly superior. All grain is highly addictive and you will never go back to the horrible 'twang' of kit beers.

Enjoy.


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## troydo (14/12/07)

ag setup doesn't cost much to setup.. just need a fermenter and a boiler.. use the fermenter as the mashtun and a few pots on ths stove as your HLT, the only cost is a boiler and if you keep your eyes open you can get one cheap/free


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## Lukes (14/12/07)

bek said:


> I'd like to try an all grain brew - i've only ever used kit beer - what are the benifits of all grain?
> Please excuse me if this is a dumb question.... i am blonde
> 
> Bek


Try one of the fresh wort kits. :chug: they are a dark side welcomer.
No shortage of retail members of this forum who make em and sell them online and in home brew shops around the country.

(Bek you have no location filled in your info so I don't know the close one to U).

- Luke


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## Adzmax (19/12/07)

bek said:


> I'd like to try an all grain brew - i've only ever used kit beer - what are the benifits of all grain?
> Please excuse me if this is a dumb question.... i am blonde
> 
> Bek




Apart from the obvious factor of setup cost I don't think you can compare a kit beer to a AG beer and I simply don't care what others say. No matter how many kit brews I try (brewed by myself and others) they simply DO NOT taste as good as AG. AG tastes like beer, kit tastes like home brew. I think that's probably the easiest way to explain it. Also there is sooo much more variety with AG, you're not restricted by extracts etc.

AG scared the crap out of me before hand but I'm on my 5 or 6th now and my beer's never been better and it's pretty darn easy. My 1st AG tasted better than ANY kit I'd ever done :icon_drool2:


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## braufrau (19/12/07)

tangent said:


> I disagree. I've made VERY cheap AG beers with Coopers yeast, high a/a hops and cheap ale malt. Cheaper than buying tins of goo and a better beer.




My colleague is very proud of the fact that he can make beer for 15c a stubby with a kit and 1.5kg of sugar.
The result is :icon_vomit: but he's happy.

Can you beat 15c a stubby, $9, total?


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## troydo (19/12/07)

braufrau said:


> My colleague is very proud of the fact that he can make beer for 15c a stubby with a kit and 1.5kg of sugar.
> The result is :icon_vomit: but he's happy.
> 
> Can you beat 15c a stubby, $9, total?




bottle of metho and tap water... 

tastes just as bad!


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## randyrob (19/12/07)

braufrau said:


> My colleague is very proud of the fact that he can make beer for 15c a stubby with a kit and 1.5kg of sugar.
> The result is :icon_vomit: but he's happy.
> 
> Can you beat 15c a stubby, $9, total?



$8.20 has been my cheapest AG for a single batch. just ingredients not including gas/electricity etc


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## Katherine (19/12/07)

> $8.20 has been my cheapest AG for a single batch. just ingredients not including gas/electricity etc



What was it like?


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## randyrob (19/12/07)

Katie said:


> What was it like?



Fantastic, Mashing a double batch again this weekend!


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## pint of lager (19/12/07)

Once brewers have made the move to AG, they rarely do an extract or kit, unless time is against them.

If you want to do a brew cheaply, for nothing, do some dirt brewing. Grow and malt your own barley, grow your own hops and step up your yeast from a previous batch.

If you want to have a crack at malting grain, buy whole barley from the horse feed barn. Haven't bought any for ages, but it would be around a dollar a kilo.


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## tangent (19/12/07)

i think i was getting 25kgs of ale malt for $30 at one stage. Since it's already malted, i reckon it's a better deal than a dollar a kilo for feed.
Coopers yeast from a few stubbies and nugget hops that a kind brewer gave me 
Was a good brew too!


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## chimera (19/12/07)

totally agree. i've turned out some pretty good kits over the last couple of years, but even the best, aged until perfection just isn't in the same park as AG beer.

In the process of stepping up my partial system, still don't have a tun or kettle big enough to do full sized batches. my biggest concern is what i'll do with half a hundred tallies of kit beer once the good stuff flows more freely


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## Katherine (19/12/07)

> totally agree. i've turned out some pretty good kits over the last couple of years, but even the best, aged until perfection just isn't in the same park as AG beer.
> 
> In the process of stepping up my partial system, still don't have a tun or kettle big enough to do full sized batches. my biggest concern is what i'll do with half a hundred tallies of kit beer once the good stuff flows more freely



Exactly how I feel... Im really just starting of on All grain this Saturday doing a single batch and Sunday doing a double. Have 2 fermenters full of All Grain and a fermenter full of extract. A shed full of kit and extract. And I need more Pet bottles to bottle! Some of the stuff in the shed is drinkable BUT! But have easily 200 or more.... to drink...


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## wambesi (19/12/07)

Katie said:


> Exactly how I feel... Im really just starting of on All grain this Saturday doing a single batch and Sunday doing a double. Have 2 fermenters full of All Grain and a fermenter full of extract. A shed full of kit and extract. And I need more Pet bottles to bottle! Some of the stuff in the shed is drinkable BUT! But have easily 200 or more.... to drink...



I know the feeling, I'm moving to AG next month and have quite a few kit & extract beers in storage to drink, also have a heap of kits bought on special which I never got around to doing and now I just don't want to!
Especially after tasting some of the brews in the case swap.

Luckily have a few mates who still love their kits so passing them on, oh and ebay too. 

Bring on AG!


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## Katherine (19/12/07)

If I never tasted a AG... I would happily be drinking SOME of my extracts!

Good Luck Wambesi on your All Grains!


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## wambesi (19/12/07)

Katie said:


> If I never tasted a AG... I would happily be drinking SOME of my extracts!
> 
> Good Luck Wambesi on your All Grains!



Should be good, got the BIAB guide, been talking to Pat quite alot, have some enlisted help for the day, so now just need that burner, bag n grain!


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## crozdog (19/12/07)

Katie said:


> Exactly how I feel... Im really just starting of on All grain this Saturday doing a single batch and Sunday doing a double. Have 2 fermenters full of All Grain and a fermenter full of extract. A shed full of kit and extract. And I need more Pet bottles to bottle! Some of the stuff in the shed is drinkable BUT! But have easily 200 or more.... to drink...


Katie,

have a party & supply all the beer - that'll get rid of a few bottles for you. It is xmas and new year is just around the corner, so you should be able to come up with an excuse for one.


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## Katherine (19/12/07)

> Katie,
> 
> have a party & supply all the beer - that'll get rid of a few bottles for you. It is xmas and new year is just around the corner, so you should be able to come up with an excuse for one.



Im sure the silly season will help us out! And 10 hours of brewing on the weekend also!


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## braufrau (19/12/07)

Katie said:


> And I need more Pet bottles to bottle! Some of the stuff in the shed is drinkable BUT! But have easily 200 or more.... to drink...



Over the past 18 months or so I've collected stubbies. Only brown ones that aren't screw tops. 
By scrounging through the pub and oragnic cafe rubbish bins, friends reycling bins and grabbing
Singhas etc. at restaurants I've accumulated quite a lot. I had to tootle to the shed to get case
for the lastest brew and discovered I had 5 cases there! On top of what is already full of beer.

Perhaps I should see a therapist.


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## Adzmax (19/12/07)

I just threw out over 200 bottles, I realize kegging is now the only way and I've made up a mini 10ltr rig that's totally portable in a wheelie esky for parties and people love it! I think cleaning, sterilizing, filling, priming and capping bottle was the worst part of brewing. Now it's straight into the keg and away, force carbonate and drink. 

I'll get some pics up of the party rig, it was cheap to make and super effective 

I'm in the same boat now, I have all this kit beer that I simply don't want to drink. I've chilled 3 of each type and have 3 not so fussy mates coming over to try them and hopefully take them off my hands


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## enoch (19/12/07)

randyrob said:


> $8.20 has been my cheapest AG for a single batch. just ingredients not including gas/electricity etc


Malt $40/25kg = $1.60/kg - grain is a bit dearer by the kg from LHBS rather by the bag in a bulk buy though..
*

*
7kg malt 11.20
Hops $5
 Yeast (dried) $5*
*
43litres = $20-25 which would be similar to K&K ignoring setup costs. Could easily save the cost of yeast by culturing from a coopers a'la tangent.


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