# Herms Or Rims Is It A Load Of Rubbish



## bouchdog2003 (29/11/08)

I was just reading a forum elsewhere and found a topic regarding HERMS and RIMS. The poster was saying that he spent thousands on temp controlers etc, with nothing but troubles. That large breweries single step mash. He goes on to say that he has since reverted back to this method with better results and less troubles. Does anyone agree with this, if not why.

Id hate to spend that kind of money just for something that looks cool (HERMS, RIMS) when i could brew beer of just as good quality without it.


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## newguy (29/11/08)

I started off mashing in a Coleman cooler (esky). I made great beer using that system, but I upgraded to a homemade HERMS and have not regretted it at all. It didn't cost me much to build, but then again I built the controller from scratch. Commercial units, like Omega PID controllers, are available on eBay for very little $.

The reason I switched to a HERMS was to help make my brewing more repeatable, and it has lived up to my expectations. I think it's important to start basic. By basic I mean mashing in an esky. For most people, this is perfectly acceptable. However, there are some of us that either aren't completely happy with a standard esky system or we're just gadget geeks who want more bells & whistles. I don't think anyone should dive right into a full blown automated system without learning the ropes on a basic system.

FWIW, when I made the jump from esky to HERMS, my efficiency went from ~70% to 85%. Plus a HERMS doesn't have to cost a lot of money. The only essentials are a PID control unit and a pump. Everything else can be homemade. Don't put too much faith in the forum posting you mentioned. I've noticed that the people who tend to bitch the loudest about their equipment (brewing or otherwise) are usually themselves the main reason why their equipment doesn't work properly.

[OT, but relevant: While walking home one day a man in a car drove up and asked for some help because he was hopelessly lost. He showed me a note on which a lady had written some directions for him to follow. The whole while he loudly complained that he had never seen such useless directions - and they were wrong, because he was lost. I read the instructions and they were perfect - they even included distances, proper street names and even which lane he should get into. I could have used them to get to where he was supposed to go with no issues whatsoever. He just couldn't follow directions. And I told him so, at which point he finally stopped bitching about the directions. I showed him how to get back to the road that he got off of way too early and told him to then follow the directions to the letter and he'd get to his destination. I bet he had to stop to ask someone else and that he probably bitched about me.  ]


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## reviled (29/11/08)

Id love a Herms system!!! :icon_drool2: 

One day... One day


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## Screwtop (29/11/08)

I started off like most using an Esky Tun and Keggle. All my attempts at step mashing resulted in problems, mostly with fermentation attenuation. Found it very hard to get good attenuation in all malt beers, they were finishing too high. The temperature required for infusion water added to the tun to reach the next step temp was often very hot or near boiling and this was the cause of the problem. Changed to a SS mash tun and tried various methods of direct heating the tun to achieve step temperatures. All direct heating methods resulted in similar problems and some new ones (caramelisation/burnt mash). Moving to a temperature controlled HERMS system provided the control and flexibility I was looking for without the problems associated with direct heating the tun. My beers improved markedly so I was happy with the results except I was still not able to achieve maximum attenuation for a given yeast strain. After a lot of advice I found that the problem was the position in the system where mash temperature was being monitored, so this was rectified. Happiest I have ever been with the results of my brewing using this system, mash temps never rise above the set temp when ramping up to the next rest temp.

Edit: Cost of my HERMS - Cheap 10L SS pot from BigW, 3M of 1/2" copper from scrap yard, plumbing fittings, some camp mat insulation, snap fittings and silicone hose, temp control, All around $280.00 If you don't have a pump add another $300. Certainly not thousands !!


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## reviled (29/11/08)

Screwtop said:


> I started off like most using an Esky Tun and Keggle. All my attempts at step mashing resulted in problems, mostly with fermentation attenuation. Found it very hard to get good attenuation in all malt beers, they were finishing too high. The temperature required for infusion water added to the tun to reach the next step temp was often very hot or near boiling and this was the cause of the problem. Changed to a SS mash tun and tried various methods of direct heating the tun to achieve step temperatures. All direct heating methods resulted in similar problems and some new ones (caramelisation/burnt mash). Moving to a temperature controlled HERMS system provided the control and flexibility I was looking for without the problems associated with direct heating the tun. My beers improved markedly so I was happy with the results except I was still not able to achieve maximum attenuation for a given yeast strain. After a lot of advice I found that the problem was the position in the system of the temperature control sensing device. Happiest I have ever been with the results of my brewing using this system, mash temps never rise above the set temp when ramping up to the next rest temp.



So jelous <_< 

:lol:


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## bouchdog2003 (29/11/08)

reviled said:


> So jelous <_<
> 
> :lol:



:icon_cheers: Thanks for the info. I was also wondering if setting up the HERMS to run though the HLT was an option? How mich copper would you suggest i use if i was to go this way?


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## reVoxAHB (29/11/08)

I just wanted to point out these are excellent replies from both newguy and screwtop :icon_cheers: .

My journey as a brewer has led me down the same path wanting contol, repeatability and convenience to HERMS. 

I'm Building A Herms Too! thread discusses (from memory) the advantages/disadvantages to your coil in HLT or dedicated vessel.

Cheers, 
reVox


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## bulp (29/11/08)

reVox said:


> I just wanted to point out these are excellent replies from both newguy and screwtop :icon_cheers: .




+1 When i started off into AG i did lots of searching and asking questions and found a HERMS setup was the way i wanted to go and i was very lucky that Mr Screwtop invited me over to see his setup and with the help of him and lots of others on this site i designed my HERMS brewery, Thanks to Screwy i was able to adjust and modify my Herms to avoid the problems he was having, and now i'm getting around 84% efficiency and have had no dramas with attenuation (if anything i'm getting a little too much), Do you need a Herms brewery to make good beer , no, Do you need a herms brewery to get good Efficiency , No. As with anything in life do the research and see what YOU feel confident in building and how far you want to go. All the info and help you need is on this website and remember to have fun i had an absolute blast building my brewery. Enjoy :icon_chickcheers: 

P.s When i built my herms, i too looked at putting the herms coil in the HLT but decided there would be too much Lag time in heating the volume of water in the HLT to achieve a step profile (and no you don't have to step mash either) so i went with a similar setup to Screwys a 10L pot Heat Exchanger and get a 1 degree a min ramp to my next step.

Cheers


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## Thirsty Boy (29/11/08)

I'll play a little devils advocate here - given that you understand that I actually run a RIMS myself.

I don't think you need it - as mentioned, lots of commercial breweries get by just nicely with single infusion mashing. You will make great beer, you can get all the consistency and repeatability you need and you can brew a version of pretty much every style of beer with a single infusion mash system.

The question isn't "do you need one?" its "do you want one?" these things are a luxury option - no one "needs" it.

A HERMS/RIMS gives you flexibility - you can brew pretty much anything, anyway you want. Sure you can brew a great german lager with a single infusion system.. what if you want to see what the difference is between a SI lager and one that has been run through a 30-40-50-60-70 step mash. Tough luck really - but if you have a HERMS....

For me, it wasn't about anything other than ultimate flexibility. When I built my system I wanted to be able to brew any style of beer, using any method I chose. For that you need to be able to heat up your mash - either herms, rimms or direct fire.. but you have to be able to add heat.

Once I started using it and advanced to proper PID control - it was also about being sure of the temps... things don't cool down, they aren't dependent on insulation or how cold it is today... if the controller says 64C... thats what it is, every time.

I vote for building a quality and easy to use infusion system, with enough space to do basic steps via boiling water infusions... when you start finding that you want to do things that you cant, then its time to think about HERMS/RIMS. If that day never comes, you have saved yourself a few hundred bucks and a fair amount of dicking around.

TB


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## reviled (29/11/08)

Whats the diff between Herms and Rimms? Or are they the same?


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## bulp (29/11/08)

reviled said:


> Whats the diff between Herms and Rimms? Or are they the same?




Different lotions from the chemist  sorry couldn't help myself , Basically With a Rims you directly heat the wort flowing over Heating elements, and with a Herms you heat the water that heats the wort flowing through a coil, Sorry if thats confusing Thirsty could probly explain it better. I'm not very smart but i can lift heavy things.


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## reviled (29/11/08)

bulp said:


> Different lotions from the chemist  sorry couldn't help myself , Basically With a Rims you directly heat the wort flowing over Heating elements, and with a Herms you heat the water that heats the wort flowing through a coil, Sorry if thats confusing Thirsty could probly explain it better. I'm not very smart but i can lift heavy things.



:huh: Sort of, lol... I just lift heavy things too, and ive noticed theyve got lighter over the last month  Or am I doing too much lifting haha


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## technocat (29/11/08)

I agree with NEWGUY but one thing he didn't mention was S/Steel fittings they cost the earth. I am in the proccess of building my HERMS system and choke on the cost of fittings such as nipples, sockets, elbows, couplers and hose barbs. Also in the equation are quick disconnects, tubing, ball valves and thats just for a manual controlled system. As for a fully automated system thats another story. Why am I doing all this, to make my brew day easier and shorter and the quest to make the perfect brew.


Cheers


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## Fermented (29/11/08)

Kinda OT... 

But if you can find a mould temperature controller from a plastic injection moulding plant at an auction then you could be in HERMS heaven. 

Basically, they have a small hot water tank inside (about ten litres) which is continually recirculated at a pre-determined setpoint (PLC controlled, LED/LCD display, mini control panel with a few cryptic symbols from the injection moulding trade), plus they have a cold water inlet to pull the temp back down. The heat range is usually able to be locked + or - 1C, finer or coarser depending on make and model. Heating range is usually 45C - 90C. About the size of a medium suitcase.

I've seen them go for a couple of hundred bucks but are worth about $2K+++ new for quality German or Jap ones. They will need some serious cleaning as various anti-corrosion agents are used in the water (including chromium compounds) and are likely to have a coating of oil/grease/gunk on the body. Just make sure it's single phase 240 VAC and not three phase and/or some obscure voltage.

HTH.

Cheers - Fermented.


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## bouchdog2003 (29/11/08)

Looked on ebay for a PID what model do i get? <_<


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## /// (29/11/08)

Has anyone who has gone this way ever checked their pH? For all the focus on temperature, has anyone thought of a simple test of pH to assess that one may be in a suitable range for making the wort that you want? A pH meter costs about $130 bucks.

Does temperature matter - mash at 64c for a dry beer and if your is at pH 5.8 your buggared. Mash at pH 5-5.3 and you encourage drier worts with the temperature. Build all this bling and pump the crap around and yet your cutting your nose off by not knowing what water will give you the desired worts.

All I can guess is that by cycling wort you are pushing the pH downby the tannan extraction (and therefore drop in pH) in the wort. Its a guess, I dont do it, measuring pH and temp gives me what I want, at 20l or 1200l.

Someone smarter than me said something about keeping things simple. Mash right with pH and temp not useless bling and ye will be happy and hoppy.


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## Barry (29/11/08)

My racking cane is stainless.


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## dr K (29/11/08)

> Has anyone who has gone this way ever checked their pH? For all the focus on temperature, has anyone thought of a simple test of pH to assess that one may be in a suitable range for making the wort that you want? A pH meter costs about $130 bucks.



Bit OT i reckon, now in my case the quality of my beers increased dramatically when I went to a modified HERMS system.
Basicallly I use (or used) a 55litre FV (finished volume) BIAB set-up, the beers were great but I just knew I could do better. I set up a 50 litre external tank through which I ran 100 meters of 1/2" copper tube, coiled, placed a single 1200W coil therin and filled with vegetable oil for cheap but accurate control via a controller I got free from a mate who used to be in hyrdroponics.
This means that any time about 12% of my mash volume is ouside the BIAB vessel and being re-educated to the exact mash temp I require, setting the pump at 2l/m means that the recirculating wort is held for 5 or 6 minutes which I guess is overkill.
OK so a pH meter may be cheaper, but, hey, I am not about saving money.

K


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## reVoxAHB (29/11/08)

/// said:


> Has anyone who has gone this way ever checked their pH? For all the focus on temperature, has anyone thought of a simple test of pH to assess that one may be in a suitable range for making the wort that you want? A pH meter costs about $130 bucks.


I adjust my pH at the start of every brew.



/// said:


> All I can guess is that by cycling wort you are pushing the pH downby the tannan extraction (and therefore drop in pH) in the wort. Its a guess, I dont do it, measuring pH and temp gives me what I want, at 20l or 1200l.



A HERMS system (or simple cycling of wort as you say) does not change pH, like sparging eventually does. Nor will a HERMS extract tannins at extended mash, step mash or otherwise. Obviously, if you start with a pH over 6, silicates and tannin extraction from husks will increase substantially. 

Sounds like you're thinking of HESMS :lol: 
Heat Exchanged Sparge Mash System

reVox


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## newguy (30/11/08)

bouchdog2003 said:


> Looked on ebay for a PID what model do i get? <_<



This one will work. Any Omega temperature controller will do the job. There are likely other brand names, but Omega is what I'm most familiar with.


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## Thirsty Boy (30/11/08)

I pretty much just bought the cheapest full PID on e-bay. Cost about $55 delivered to Australia.

They need to be installed in a box and they need to have a relay of some sort, most people go with an SSR, but I am using a mechanical relay set-up and its fine.

OR a lot of people are using simple on off controllers too - just like the mashmaster HLT/Mash controller. I prefer the notion of a PID.. but there are quite a few satisfied on/off users out there as well.

Bit of searching will do you some good - there have been a number of quite comprehensive HERMS/RIMS threads in the last few months. All the info you could desire.

TB


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