# Help With Designing Ag Cherry Ripe Beer



## manticle (27/9/10)

So I've convinced my partner to do a brewday with me. Her choice of beer to make is a cherry ripe stout so cherries, chocolate and coconut. I'm not opposed although I reckon brewing in autumn for winter would be better than brewing in spring for summer.

Nonetheless I need some advice on using ingredients I've never used before.

First cacao nibs. How much and when (mash, boil, primary, secondary, ageing vessel??)

Secondly coconut. I figure using unsweetend, dessicated coconut would be best which I could then toast and drain on absorbent paper to remove the fat content. I'm aiming not to kill head retention. Anyone used coconut successfully? again -mash, boil or secondary? My thoughts currently are secondary (GF will be disappointed to make a cherry ripe beer that doesn't feature cherries, choc or coconut in the first process but we'll all live with that).

I'm likely to go with the grist from either my regular stout (usually sweet but done oatmeal before too) or my robust porter. Both recipes are around 21 litre batch size, both involve chocolate malt, black malt, biscuit malt and roast barley although I might drop the roast here to lessen the coffee (don't want it to get too confusing) and a base malt (probably a trade ale and marris otter blend).

I'll possibly also protein rest this one and also do a glyco protein rest to aid head retention (cheers screwy) to counteract any possible effect from the coconut.

So of those who've used cacao nibs successfully - advice? Anyone used coconut successfully (BABBS winter warmer brewers?) Lastly - what yeast ?

I have 1099, pro 103 and 1187 on hand (in terms of UK - also some brewlabs sants - need to check what I ordered). I'm also happy to try a new one if there's a standout.

Cheers


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## fasty73 (27/9/10)

Just chuck in a couple of cherry ripes!!!!! (sorry for being stupid) It does sound like a nice beer though!!!!


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## barls (27/9/10)

id use coconut extract as per this recipe
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/vie...coconut#p103194


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## pk.sax (27/9/10)

manticle said:


> So I've convinced my partner to do a brewday with me. Her choice of beer to make is a cherry ripe stout .............



Cherry ripe, nuf said... I hope u don't let that beer walk out of ur door ever  lol.. cheery ripe!! omg!! and I'm not rligious dammit.. ur a brave man


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## barls (27/9/10)

or heres one using toasted coconut
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/vie...coconut#p168013


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## Fourstar (27/9/10)

caco nibs where used in my MB annual dinner Choc Hazelnut Brown Ale. i used 50g because i was being conservative and wanting the hazelnut to shine. Going forward 100g would be a minimumto really puch that chocolate bittersweet flavour.

Also look at roasting them, adding raw nibs is asking for trouble because they are a fermented product. :icon_cheers: 

i roasted, ground and steeped mine for 24 hours in a few shots of havana club to extract as much chocolate flavour as possible.

ever thought of using coconut juice as a part of your brewing water? that adds a distinct coconut flavour and none of the fats!


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## petesbrew (27/9/10)

I definitely would steer clear of imitation coconut essence.

edit: just found my knk dark coconut ale from 2 years back.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&hl=coconut dark ale&st=0


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## manticle (27/9/10)

Practicalfool - cherries and chocolate are regular flavours in many beers. Coconut has been used in commercial porters so it's really not that strange an idea.

Cheers Barls - I'll probably aim for the toasted as I tend to avoid extracts in cooking and beer.

Cheers fourstar - I might aim for 75g of nibs and see how she goes. I'll toast them too. Good idea on the coconut water - might have a go. Fresh young coconut juice from an asian grocer could be a goer.

Petesbrew - I wouldn't use imitation anything.


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## stanko (27/9/10)

How about sum cherry brandy :icon_drool2:


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## pk.sax (27/9/10)

haha.. thats cool, I just have horrible childhood cheery ripe memories... I won't relive them for anything (I'm not even talking beer)  But, yeah.. I kno... stuff made well tastes good, I hated turkish delight until I had some real stuff  gl dude


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## felten (27/9/10)

Nibs are already roasted, it causes the chemical reactions that make it taste like chocolate. The beans are fermented and then roasted to aid in breaking them into nibs and removing the outer husk, but I would agree with fourstar to roast them again but don't go over ~150c.


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## petesbrew (28/9/10)

manticle said:


> Practicalfool - cherries and chocolate are regular flavours in many beers. Coconut has been used in commercial porters so it's really not that strange an idea.
> 
> Cheers Barls - I'll probably aim for the toasted as I tend to avoid extracts in cooking and beer.
> 
> ...


Just making sure you don't take any shortcuts!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (28/9/10)

I used a windsor yeast on my last cherry dark beer - it isn't a fantastic attenuator but left the body really thick and creamy and the cherry (and in my case honey) flavour really came to the front of the palate.

@manticle - agree with you - winter beers I always brew in autumn.

Goomba


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## aaronpetersen (28/9/10)

Manticle, I can't offer any advice but I will be following this thread closely as I'd love to give something similar a go. I made a choc porter that I reckon would be a good base. Please post the final recipe you decide to use.
:icon_offtopic: can anyone tell me how to bookmark or subscribe to a thread?


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## aaronpetersen (28/9/10)

AaronP said:


> :icon_offtopic: can anyone tell me how to bookmark or subscribe to a thread?



Nevermind, I just figured it out


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## Fourstar (28/9/10)

manticle said:


> Cheers fourstar - I might aim for 75g of nibs and see how she goes. I'll toast them too. Good idea on the coconut water - might have a go. Fresh young coconut juice from an asian grocer could be a goer.



I recently decided to try the tinned coconut juice/water for when i make Thit Kho (vietnamese dish with pork belly, soy sauce, egg, star anise etc) due to the asian gorcer near me only sells the frozen fresh thai stuff with the flesh in 4 bulk lots. Not only was it cheaper, it tasted the same, cost less and didnt loose any juice space to flesh.

Just another idea.




felten said:


> Nibs are already roasted, it causes the chemical reactions that make it taste like chocolate.



So the raw organic cacao nibs i purchased below are not raw? :blink: 

http://www.raw-chocolate.net/products/10/r...anic-cacao-nibs

There is still little bits of broken husk on the outside of the beans. they taste kinda flat and bitter but after i roasted them it was like lindt 75% :icon_drool2:


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## Supra-Jim (28/9/10)

Hi Manticle,

The following recipe is for a Black forest stout taken from JZ's Brewing Classic Stlyes. It doesn't help you much with the coconut, but might give you a few pointers re chocloate and cherry flavours.

OG: 1.071 (1.075 with fruit)
FG: 1018
IBU: 38
Colour: 39 SRM
Boil 60 mins
Pre boil gravity: 1.60
Mash single infustion @ 67degC

Grains:
6.3kg English Pale Malt
340g Black Roast ed Barley
284g Crystal 40
284g Crystal 80
227g Choclate Malt

Hops: 
EKG 5%AA, 60mins 60g (38.4 IBU)

Extras:
227g Low Fat unsweetend Chocolate powder, 0min addition
2.7kg Cherry puree (secondary)

Yeast: 1028 London Ale

Ferment @19C

As primary fermentation slows, rack into a secondary onto the cherry, bringing as much 'chocolate sludge' from the primary as you can, as this helps enhance the cholocate flavour.

Cheers SJ


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## sydneyhappyhour (28/9/10)

manticle said:


> Secondly coconut. I figure using unsweetend, dessicated coconut would be best which I could then toast and drain on absorbent paper to remove the fat content. I'm aiming not to kill head retention. Anyone used coconut successfully? again -mash, boil or secondary? My thoughts currently are secondary (GF will be disappointed to make a cherry ripe beer that doesn't feature cherries, choc or coconut in the first process but we'll all live with that).


Done a Chocolate coconut stout myself around 6 months back and am currently waiting for a spring apricot coconut wheat beer to age at the moment. 
My advice is to get two whole coconuts from the super market drain the liquid inside then smash the thing into pieces with a hammer put into a pot, cover with water boil for 10 minutes then cool. This makes it easier to separate the meat from the husk and after drunkenly stabbing myself while doing my stout I can't recommend this step enough.

Then simply use a cheese grater to grate up your coconut meat and toast in the oven until its roasted to your desired level. I have used it both in the primary and secondary, but the secondary seems the better approach.

I have never suffered any head issues whilst using coconut so you should be okay on that front.

Good Luck!


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## brettprevans (28/9/10)

Fourstar said:


> So the raw organic cacao nibs i purchased below are not raw? :blink:
> 
> http://www.raw-chocolate.net/products/10/r...anic-cacao-nibs
> 
> There is still little bits of broken husk on the outside of the beans. they taste kinda flat and bitter but after i roasted them it was like lindt 75% :icon_drool2:



the nibs from Ross are ready to use. I think thats probably what he's referring to

nibs rock

edit: also i recon that 1099 you used in last years xmas porter held those flavours really well. id be tempted to stick with that or be adventurous and split the batch and ferment with 2 differant yeasts


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## manticle (28/9/10)

Thanks for all the replies so far. Quite a few things to consider. I'll post back the eventual recipe we settle on and tasting notes etc.


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## Muggus (28/9/10)

I'd almost be tempted to chuck in some oak chips to get the coconut flavour...among other things.
I'm currently giving doing a taste test on a oaked IPA of mine...aged 1 month with light toasted French oak chips. I did use quite alot however...somewhere in the realms of 10g/L, so the oak is quite noticable...but lightly toasted is the way to go, there's that certain buttered toast, vanilla and coconut thing working in this beer, that lingers on the palate. And, being a coconut and cherry beer, you could very well soak the oak chips in Cherry Brandy, or Malibu, or Creme de Cacoa, beforehand...or all 3! 

This idea excites me just a bit too much...


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## manticle (28/9/10)

Just toasted a few oak chips for a dubbel with 1388 (initially intended to add to sour dregs but not sure at this point) so I'll see if I can find some coconut in that. Will definitely be using real coconut and maybe some fresh young juice but could accentuate with the chips. Have plenty on hand.


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## Kai (28/9/10)

On the coconut, I wouldn't worry excessively about some home-toasted coconut reducing your head retention. Better to think about getting that coco-nutty goodness in over worrying about the head, as I think the benefits of the former will well outweigh the detraction of the latter. I think I'd add toasted coconut anywhere between end of boil and secondary.

On the cherries, I'd add a small amount of cherry puree to secondary. 

On the chocolate, I've no idea how I'd use cocoa nibs but there are a world of ways to introduce chocolatey goodness to a beer. In a way this would be the simplest part of your challenge. 

Also I believe cherry ripes have a large proportion of apple in them, though whether you want to include that in your recipe would be up in the air...


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## manticle (28/9/10)

Lady can't eat apples so they're out. Will be choc malt and maybe some lactose in the mix so choc and cherries (cherry additions being well documented) should work one way or another.

So far I have as possibilities

choc: Choc malt
Cocoa
bitter belgian Chocolate added to mash or secondary
Cacao nibs

Coconut:
Toasted fresh
Toasted dried
Fresh young juice
Toasted oak

Cherries:
Fresh/frozen
Pureed
Cherry brandy

yeast:

Suggestion for windsor, 1098 and 1099. I'm a liquid fan so 1099 is probable (have several test tubes full of gen 0)

Knowing me, I'll probably try and work out a little combo from each stack (besides yeast) that works flavourwise. I'll be aiming for distinct but subtle as overdoing any of this will be horrible. Bitterness and grain grist will need to hold their own. Fun times ahead.


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## dcx3 (28/9/10)

From a clueless viewpoint could you "dry hop" the coconut.


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## manticle (28/9/10)

Most likely adding all of these flavours to secondary (as I would with dry hops) with possible exception of some choc (actual and nibs)


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## felten (28/9/10)

It might not be safe to eat uncooked cocoa beans because of the fermenting process, though if they don't taste like chocolate, and they say they're raw I guess they are . Usually they're roasted before being winnowed.


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## manticle (29/9/10)

This is what I'm looking at

Cherry Ripe Porter:

Style:	Robust Porter
Type:	All grain
Size:	24 liters
Color: 52 HCU (~22 SRM) 
Bitterness: 28 IBU
OG:	1.063
FG:	1.015
Alcohol:	6.1% v/v (4.8% w/w)

Grain:	6kg JW Ale 
150g Dingemans biscuit
150g JW light crystal 
75g JW chocolate
75g JW black patent
150g Roasted Barley
50g lightly toasted cacao nibs at mashout
50g organic cocoa powder at mashout
50 g high cocao content choc bar at mashout

Mash:	60 mins 70% efficiency 67 degrees
Boil:	60 minutes SG 1.040	34 liters
Hops:	20g Fuggles (4.75% AA, 45 min.)
30g Kent Goldings (5% AA, 45 min.)

Yeast: Wyeast 1099 Whitbread 

2g each CaSO4 and CaCl2 to mash and boil

Secondary:
100g lightly toasted cacao nibs to secondary
1.5 kg cherry puree (probably purchased fresh cherries, home frozen to rupture cells then pureed and either pastuerised or added straight in)
1 litre fresh coconut juice (unsure whether to pastuerise or just run with it or add to mash/boil in first place)
Flesh from young coconut, grated and toasted (drained on absorbent paper)
10g toasted oak chips, soaked for a week in cherry brandy.

Looks like a complicated recipe and may need some ageing for the flavours to meld.


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## Supra-Jim (29/9/10)

wow, looks a very interesting recipe there, Manticle. Some interesting ideas and hopefully you get a great beer out of it in the end. 

Look forward to hearing some updates in the future about this one.

Cheers SJ


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## Fourstar (1/10/10)

felten said:


> It might not be safe to eat uncooked cocoa beans because of the fermenting process, though if they don't taste like chocolate, and they say they're raw I guess they are . Usually they're roasted before being winnowed.



They are very acrid and bitter when raw. There was a very mild chocolate flavour but nothing like after i roasted them. It was like little individual bitter chocolate bikkies! mmmmm tasty!

They recommend eating the nibs raw, in a nut mix or on muesli. the highest antioxidant food around apparantly.


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## manticle (9/10/10)

New recipe - need to run the numbers to see colour, gravity etc. The secondary flavour additions can be tweaked depending on how the balance of flavours is going after primary.

Style:	Cherry Ripe Porter
Type:	All grain
Size:	22 liters
Color: CHECK 
Bitterness: 28 IBU
OG:	CHECK
FG:	1.015
Alcohol:	CHECK

Grain:	2kg JW Ale 
3 kg Simpsons Marris Otter
150g Dingemans biscuit
150g JW light crystal 
75g JW chocolate
75g JW black patent
150g Roasted Barley


Misc: 20g organic cocoa powder to mash
2 x high cocoa dark choc bars last 10 minutes of mash
50g toasted dried coconut to mash
Juice of one fresh young coconut to mash
50 toasted cacao nibs
2g each CaSo4 and CaCl2 to mash and boil
1g CaCo3 to mash

Secondary: 1 L sour cherry juice
2 kg frozen cherries
1 coconut, home toasted
100g toasted dried coconut
150g toasted cacao nibs

Rack and age 3 months in glass carboy, rack again and bottle with small amount neutral yeast, carbed to 2.0.

Mash:	60 mins 70% efficiency 67 degrees
Boil:	60 minutes SG 1.040	34 liters
Hops:	30g Fuggles (4.75% AA, 60 min.)
30g Kent Goldings (5% AA, 60 min.)

Yeast: Wyeast 1099 Whitbread 

Notes: Caramelise approx 2 L first runnings until thick syrup.


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## Dazza88 (7/5/11)

Manticle, 

Tasted this one yet?


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## manticle (7/5/11)

Dear me. Where do I start?


Mash day went well. Lady was interested in processes, very hands-on, cracked all the grain herself, stirred for the batch sparge, etc.

Fermentation also went well. I racked to a glass tapless demijohn onto some sour cherry juice, cherries and more toasted coconut and cacao nibs. So many flavours need time to integrate so I stuck her in the shed for a few months (the beer, not the lady).

I haven't got my siphoning technique down pat yet so I had some issues transferring the beer from the demijohn to a tertiary vessel in which I was going to cold condition for a couple of weeks before bottling.

After having several tantrums involving hurling various bits of tubing around the garden, I finally got the beer into the vessel and into the fridge. Tastes good so far.

A few days later and there is a lovely film growing on top of the beer - maybe from my piss poor siphoning efforts.

Not willing to disappoint the lady nor give up on such a labour of love, I transferred again to a pot thinking to pasteurise.

Of course 72 odd degrees would be ample to remove most things but nob head here wanted to be super sure and brought the whole thing to a rolling boil for about 10-15 minutes.

As I was transferring into a no chill cube I noticed the wonderful smell of ethanol in the air and realised I had probably de-alcoholised our lovely beer.

Still not willing to give up, I now have the cube sitting safely (and the flavours are great) with the aim of brewing a similar recipe again (must involve the lady) with no transfers and no super long secondary and blending the two.

Recipe is a winner from taste tests but not having an idiot brewing it would probably help.


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## mika (7/5/11)

More interested in the cherry side of this beer. How did you add the cherry's, as per your initial concept above ? And how cherry-ish is it ?
Interested in making a cherry beer, but haven't seen a lot of info on the amount of cherry's used. Seems to be a pretty wide variation between brewers.


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## manticle (7/5/11)

2 Litres of sour cherry juice (preserve free etc) and about 2 kg of cherries in secondary.

Added a further 2 kg of cherries after some ageing but also added extras of the other flavours to try and hit a balance.

Cherry flavour noticeable but not over the top. Take out the choc and coconut and perception would increase.

The juice went straight in. The cherries were frozen, then pitted, then soaked in startsan solution (didn't want to pasteurise), then chucked in.


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## mika (7/5/11)

Did you use any pectinase (sp ?)


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## manticle (7/5/11)

No.


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## Wolfy (7/5/11)

manticle said:


> The juice went straight in. The cherries were frozen, then pitted, then soaked in startsan solution (didn't want to pasteurise), then chucked in.


It may pay to check how True South's Cherry Bomb was brewed and emulate that process, I think some the details are floating around here somewhere.


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## manticle (8/3/12)

manticle said:


> Dear me. Where do I start?
> 
> 
> Mash day went well. Lady was interested in processes, very hands-on, cracked all the grain herself, stirred for the batch sparge, etc.
> ...



I recently tasted a tiny sample from the cube and it was delicious so I'll be bottling the cubed version with some fresh yeast this weekend and re-brewing this either this weekend or next.

I reckon I probably didn't de-alcoholise the lot - probably just knocked a few points off it and the aging in bulk has helped it along. Got definite coconut from my small sample, less cherry.


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## sim (8/3/12)

manticle said:


> I reckon I probably didn't de-alcoholise the lot - probably just knocked a few points off it and the aging in bulk has helped it along. Got definite coconut from my small sample, less cherry.



Hey Manticle, do you happen to have a refractometre and a hydrometre perchance? i'd be interested to see how much alcohol you lost by boiling. ie hydro and refract to give "supposed SG" minus actuall SG = how many gravity points difference, then convert that into the potential alcohol that has been lost.


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## manticle (8/3/12)

I just bought a refrac but I'm not sure how I would calculate that.

I'd have to use an alcometer (I have something someone sent me that may be one so if I can hunt it up and test it in something with a known abv, I'll give that a crack).


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## sim (8/3/12)

cool. Im not sure if an alcometer will do it, the reading will be corrupted by the presence of sugars etc. but i think you should be able to do it if you have the beer's SG, and a refract and hydro, and the conversion calculator in most brewing software.

the refract will give a corrupted reading in relation to the amount of alcohol present, and using this number along with the reading from a hydrometer you can find a false SG. Minus this from the actual SG and that would be the amount of alcohol boiled off, represented in gravity points.

im curious because if you say it tastes alright after having boiled it for a time, then one could make low/no alcoholic beer using this method.

Anyways have fun with your refract, and good luck with the Cherry Ripe p.s.


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## manticle (10/3/12)

How many ways can you spell 'ning nong'?

I just racked to bulk prime and noticed white floaties which made me think the skin infection remained.

On closer inspection, they are solid lumps of white fat that taste remarkably similar to Copha (coconut fat, main ingredient in chocolate crackles). most likely there was no infection to begin with.

I guess the aging hasn't done it any harm and the dregs from the cube taste like a chocolate milkshake (in a good way) but **** me. How many unnecessary steps and stresses could I have avoided?

Guess the head retention will be phuctennbrachen but as long as the flavour is there. Long, long journey that one.

Cherries noticeably absent so I think age has driven that away (and none were addded to the cube - if so, I might expect more presence going on previous experience with fruit in an aging beer).


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## Matt89 (10/3/12)

Lol that's funny, but awesome that it tastes good!


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## milestron (12/4/12)

Hey - thought I'd just revive this thread since I'm giving this a shot for my next brew (more or less). It will be a bit different though as I"m planning on omitting the chocolate and coconut, I am really just going for a Dark Cherry Porter (Black Forest Cake...Beer?).

I'm using the same grain bill, but it'll be for 19 litres rather then 22. I figure It'll just be a little bit maltier which I'm hoping will balance out the tartness of the cherries.

Now my question is - any thoughts on alternate yeasts? Manticle went with Whitbread 1099. I have some s04 on hand anyway so initially I figured and I'd just use that. Then I got thinking how would it go if I went towards the Belgian side instead, like perhaps a Leffe Brune with slight cherry vibe (3787?)

Anyway hoping to hear anyones 2 cents, I'm not one to be too fussed about trying to fit into a certain style as long as good beer is the end result. I'll use the s04 down the track anyway so it's not going to go to waste. I also have a (rather old) pack of 1388 on hand although I've never used it before (can't remember what I had planned with that one)

Cheers guys


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