# Supermarket Goo Trials!



## nevbass (8/12/09)

Well, It's been six months now since I first started my home brewing. A mate of mine got me into it, and he always made a good simple easy drinking 'Homie' with no fuss. My aim is to brew the same way. He lives in Brisbane, I live in country Victoria. Our brews will always be different, so I have been trying everything to see what works for me!! I need to keep it simple due to work/family and other commitments, so I'm not interested in anything other than simple supermarket line products. To work out which brew works best for me I tried the following,

Coopers Lager - OK, but distinctive home brew flavour

Coopers Draught - Same

Coopers Mexican - OK, very pale but drinkable

Coopers Canadian - OK, bland at four weeks but at six it looks like a winner!!

Coopers Euro - States a twelve week 'sitting' period. At week ten it's not too bad at all!!

I also tried a Cascade Premium Kit (Not my favourite) and some Australian Draught (Also not my favourite) The Tooheys Lager was OK, but also had that home brew flavour thing happening!!

I tried the basic Coopers cans with different Enhancer packets and didn't get much of a difference.

I want to settle on something that is easy to obtain (I live in a country town) and is low fuss. At this stage it's between the Euro and the Canadian. Does anyone have a suggestion for putting a bit more flavour and mouth feel into any of these beers?? Remember, I want to keep it basic, so I'm looking more at an additive or malt/dextrose/Corn Syrup ratio etc.
Thanks everyone.


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## Cube (8/12/09)

Hi. Steep grains, boil hops and use better yeast like US05 and re-use the trub. All can be found on here by a search or wait for more detailed info from the usual suspects here ( sorry drinking with mates right now  

And ferment at NEVER above 18 deg :chug:
Edit: use more LDME. No sugar or dextrose ( no body or flavour in those just alc ) Malt leaves behind more body and taste.


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## Count Vorlauf (8/12/09)

nevbass said:


> I want to settle on something that is easy to obtain (I live in a country town) and is low fuss. At this stage it's between the Euro and the Canadian. Does anyone have a suggestion for putting a bit more flavour and mouth feel into any of these beers?? Remember, I want to keep it basic, so I'm looking more at an additive or malt/dextrose/Corn Syrup ratio etc.
> Thanks everyone.



I'd suggest fermenting with some quality yeasts from a home brew shop like craftbrewer or Grain & Grape. Won't cost much in postage. I might play around with dry hopping as well - maybe some Saaz or Hallertauer in the European Lager to combat that blandness.

There are some interesting suggestions for kit recipes at this website: http://www.hbkitreviews.com


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## nevbass (8/12/09)

Thanks for that, but I really want to keep it simple. I know by doing that I will never have a magnificent beer, but I'm really just trying to improve on the basics. I like the idea about the different Yeast, can you tell me more about additives in lieu of dextrose??


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## kelbygreen (8/12/09)

I havnt had any real experiance at brewing (both turned fould from to much heat  ) but do they sell hops?? my last brew I done was coopers heritage lager, booster blend, 12g cluster hops and amylase enzime. Not sure how it would of come out if i brewed at the right temp, meant to be brewed below 18 and got to 36 a few days  just spoiled it. 

Hope you can find a good brew, once I get my brewing fridge I will try again at a controled temp and let you know if I find a good one. There is a heap of recipes its just finding one that works for you


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## nevbass (8/12/09)

Count Vorlauf said:


> I'd suggest fermenting with some quality yeasts from a home brew shop like craftbrewer or Grain & Grape. Won't cost much in postage. I might play around with dry hopping as well - maybe some Saaz or Hallertauer in the European Lager to combat that blandness.
> 
> There are some interesting suggestions for kit recipes at this website: http://www.hbkitreviews.com




Thanks for that, I'll look it up.


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## bum (8/12/09)

nevbass said:


> can you tell me more about additives in lieu of dextrose??



Malt. Equal amount should do it. But it'll change the taste too and you might not be as happy with it. 

Mate, you get out of beer what you put into it. If you can make tea you can steep grains. Hardly difficult. What you're asking is "How do I make my beers better without changing how I make my beers?" Can't be done. As said above, better yeast and keeping temps to the high teens will make a noticeable improvement. LDME instead of sugar/dex will improve flavour and mouthfeel but may increase perceived sweetness. None of these things will completely remove kit twang. A small amount of extra work really does pay dividends, think it over if you really want to see the improvement you're looking for..


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## petesbrew (8/12/09)

Understand your wanting to keep it simple. So here's some supermarket ideas.
If you look in the honey aisle you can somtimes find Saunders Malt Extract. I've used that with success.
You haven't tried the dark & stout kits yet. Both are winners, and brilliant put together. Search for the toucan threads here.
The Canadian Blonde, and Aussie Pale Ale kits are both winners. Haven't tried the bitter yet.

Um, yeah if you can get your hands on any hops, it's worth looking for some.


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## nevbass (8/12/09)

bum said:


> Malt. Equal amount should do it. But it'll change the taste too and you might not be as happy with it.
> 
> Mate, you get out of beer what you put into it. If you can make tea you can steep grains. Hardly difficult. What you're asking is "How do I make my beers better without changing how I make my beers?" Can't be done. As said above, better yeast and keeping temps to the high teens will make a noticeable improvement. LDME instead of sugar/dex will improve flavour and mouthfeel but may increase perceived sweetness. None of these things will completely remove kit twang. A small amount of extra work really does pay dividends, think it over if you really want to see the improvement you're looking for..




Thanks for your help, but I'm actually asking how do I improve my beers and still keep it simple. I don't even know what LDME is!! Yes I can make tea....and coffee too!! But to me a steep grain is one on a hill!! Thanks for your help, but please understand I am new to this, and have posted in this particular forum for that reason!! I'm asking for a better additive than a kilo of dextrose, and any other simple ingrediant with the limited local recourses I have.


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## Tin Shed (8/12/09)

Thinking basic here...

Do you have access to any other kits other than the Coopers kits? e.g. Blackrock or something like that?

Can you get better yeasts than the stuff in the top of the can? e.g Safale, S04 etc..think mail order with Grain and Grape etc....

Keep going with the dex mixtures also some hop pellets Saaz etc... as above is worth playing with.

Thought of another fermenter so you can rack off after a week or so?

I had a book that came with my brewcraft kit that had a few other useful tips


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## Count Vorlauf (8/12/09)

nevbass said:


> Thanks for your help, but I'm actually asking how do I improve my beers and still keep it simple. I don't even know what LDME is!! Yes I can make tea....and coffee too!! But to me a steep grain is one on a hill!! Thanks for your help, but please understand I am new to this, and have posted in this particular forum for that reason!! I'm asking for a better additive than a kilo of dextrose, and any other simple ingrediant with the limited local recourses I have.



LDME is Light Dried Malt Extract. 

The homebrew kits are made by dehydrating a wort (sweet liquid produced by steeping crushed malt in hot water) that has had hops added to it. You can also get malt extract that is the dehydrated wort without the hops. It comes in liquid (syrup - like a kit) or dried form (looks like sugar), and in "light" or "dark". If you decide to move on to the next stage, you can brew from this extract, add a handful of specialty grains steeped in a mesh bag, then add hops during the boil. It will give you a great versatility in brewing different styles without the daunting equipment outlay required for all-grain. 

I like the idea of brewing with what is easy to get your hands on locally, but with the advent of the interwebs you have access to some good online homebrew shops no matter where in Australia you are. Sure, it isn't economical for them to ship 20 kg of malt, but you can still get yeast packs (dried or liquid), malt extract (often sold in 500g bags), hops, etc. shipped to you at a reasonable rate.

Cheers!


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## bullfrog (8/12/09)

+1 to online shopping.

Also, as was mentioned earlier, focus heavily on temperature control. If you don't have a fermenting fridge, try putting your fermenter in a tub with water and some frozen water bottles in it, to keep it cool enough throughout summer.

If you use tap water to fill up your fermenter after adding your kit, and it isn't the best quality water (chlorine-y, odd tasting, etc) then maybe look at some kind of water purification. An easy one for that is just get your largest pot, fill with water, boil for 5-10 minutes, tip into a sanitised container then fridge it. Repeat the process untill you have enough water to fill your fermenter.

People have said to use extra hops. To someone new, this may seem daunting. If you want to take baby steps, then look online (there are online brew shops at the top of this page in the sponsors section) for hop teabags. All you have to do is put these in a mug, fill with hot water, leave sit for ten minutes (while you get the rest of your brew ready) and then tip the whole lot, bag and all, into the fermenter. It will only really add to your aroma, but it will get you familiarised with how hops work.

Proper yeast, as opposed to the stuff that comes in the lid of your kits, can be bought the same way and will do wonders.

At the end of the day, if you're not too adventurous/don't have too much time to devote, then just find something that you like and stick to it. You're only making beer for you. You don't need to make something that will win international awards, just something that you're happy with.

Happy brewing!

EDIT: Sppellingks


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## boingk (8/12/09)

I've done the same with a few 'Homebrand' kits from Woolies, just adding my stock malt/dextrose mix and then 250g of specialty grains and 20g of dryhopping to spice them up a bit. All up it was an experimental couple of brews on the cheap to put stocks up for summer.

THey turned out really well, to my surprise, and a mate or two reckons that they beat the stuffing out of some premo kits they've tried. Biggest favour you'll ever do for yourself - use some grains and hops.

Cheers - boingk


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## Nick JD (8/12/09)

Keeping it simple. Five things:

1.) Get your can of supermarket goop.

2.) Buy this yeast. 







3.) Buy a can of this malt and use it insted of your 1kg of dextrose.






4.) Ferment it between 18 and 22 degrees C.

It won't taste much like "homebrew" at all.

5.) Learn about how beer is made from malt and hops and doesn't come from a can  .


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## nevbass (8/12/09)

Thanks everyone. Some great advice and well worth the post.

Now, back to the beer......................................................


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## bum (8/12/09)

nevbass said:


> Thanks for your help, but I'm actually asking how do I improve my beers and still keep it simple. I don't even know what LDME is!! Yes I can make tea....and coffee too!! But to me a steep grain is one on a hill!! Thanks for your help, but please understand I am new to this, and have posted in this particular forum for that reason!! I'm asking for a better additive than a kilo of dextrose, and any other simple ingrediant with the limited local recourses I have.



Sorry, I thought someone had explained that already - I must be pissed? Count Vorlauf has explained that one above.

Perhaps if you replaced half your dex with the same amount of malt you might get a slightly improved version of the beers you current like?

Read around the board - there's lots of really useful information full of simple stuff you can do to improve your kits. For me the biggest improvement came from doing a long hop boil and adding spec grains. Plenty of info on both about the place if you're interested enough to do a search.


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## wabster (8/12/09)

nevbass said:


> Thanks for your help, but I'm actually asking how do I improve my beers and still keep it simple. I don't even know what LDME is!! Yes I can make tea....and coffee too!! But to me a steep grain is one on a hill!! Thanks for your help, but please understand I am new to this, and have posted in this particular forum for that reason!! I'm asking for a better additive than a kilo of dextrose, and any other simple ingrediant with the limited local recourses I have.



At its most basic the best thing you can do is try to find where you can get dried or liquid malt and use a kilo of that instead of sugar, maybe use 500g of sugar if you have to and want to keep the alcohol content up. If you don't have access to that then buy 2 cans of goop at the supermarket and use both in the one brew with no sugar.

Then try to obtain a good yeast like SO5 or SO4 they are years ahead of and better than the yeast under the cap of the supermarket goo.

Finally try to ferment at under 20C if possible, 23 at highest.

There is no magic ingredient that will make a crappy beer good unless you follow a few basic rules that have been put here a few times.

Try a find someone near where you live that brews and buddy up with them. But accept that you are going to have to learn stuff and do a bit of homework yourself 

If you use minimal ingredients, too much sugar, crappy yeast and ferment high temps you will consistently get shit beers. That's just an immutable law of the universe 

Cheerz Wabster.


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## kelbygreen (8/12/09)

so with the malt what kind of taste it give off??? plus will it affect the aclohole % . not to sure what to use there is so many different dry mixes in the shops but i guess trial them see what you like


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## bullfrog (8/12/09)

kelbygreen said:


> so with the malt what kind of taste it give off??? plus will it affect the aclohole % . not to sure what to use there is so many different dry mixes in the shops but i guess trial them see what you like



Malt is not as fermentable as pure dextrose. What this means is that you end up getting more body to your beer, and more sweetness, than if you used plain dextrose. It also means that you get less alcohol content, so if you want more bang in your brew, maybe consider blending your malt and your dextrose.

As far as malt types go, it's pretty simple. Dark malt goes in dark beers, light or pale malt goes in light beers and wheat malt goes in wheat beers.


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## glaab (8/12/09)

When I started out I did exactly as Nick described, except I got the Coopers Heritage goo and used LLME.
Everybody reckoned the beer was fantastic, except me, I could hardly swallow the stuff. The malt extract isn't fully fermentable and the beer was too sweet for me. Now I know I like my ales around 35-45 IBU
and make it to suit myself. With that in mind I'd try a can of Coopers IPA with about 1 kg of BE2 + 500 dex and see how you like them apples. Below is some stuff you might find useful. Cheers

use formulae

IBU[on can]*1.7/23 *0.725=

eg , for DELETED aust bitter; 620*1.7/23*0.725= 33.2 IBU

or ; IBU on can * 0.0536, 

eg , for DELETED aust bitter; 620*0.0536 = 33.2 IBU



........this seems correct if using dex/ BE , if using 1.5kg LLME increase bitterness

by approx ? 2 - 5 ? IBU to compensate for residual sweetness

due to low attenuability of LLME



ORIGINAL SERIES

coopers lager; 20.9 IBU

coopers draught; 22.5 IBU

coopers real ale; 30.0 IBU 

INTERNATIONAL SERIES

coopers pale ale; 18.2 IBU

coopers european lager; 18.2 IBU

PREMIUM SELECTION

premium selection aust bitter; 26.5 IBU

premium selection traditional draught; 22.5 IBU

premium selection sparkling ale; 26.3 IBU

BREWMASTER SELECTION

brewmaster selection pils; 22.5 IBU

brewmaster selection IPA; 38.0 IBU

brewmaster selection Wheat Beer; 16.1 IBU



Morgans Golden Sheaf Wheat Beer [claims on web] ; 20 IBU


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## Cube (8/12/09)

nevbass said:


> Thanks everyone. Some great advice and well worth the post.
> 
> Now, back to the beer......................................................



Mate - everything you need to know about stepping up your beer ( and they are the REALLY FIRST basic steps up from what you are doing ) has been said. By continually saying "well thanks for that info but how do I make better beer easier...now back to beer " when all your questions have been answered multiple times is going to get you zip, nowhere, shit beer without effort from yourself.

I suggest:

Search, read and improve your beers under advisement of all the above posts;
Read alot of the Kit forum;
Absorb the advice - it's all friendly and the best out there;
Stay away from small local brew shops and shop online from the sponsors here for all your LDME, hops, yeast and steeping grains.

Don't listen to your mates unless they are bare minimum:
steeping grains ( WOW - putting hot water on some grain in a pot and letting it sit for 30 mins just like a huge coffee );
doing boils ups with hops ( wow! - this means boiling water and hops in a pot on a stove with some malt and that resultant fluid from above steeping grain in a pot!;
have fermenting temp under control ie: your fermenter in water ( about 12 inches of water ) with frozen pet bottles in a laundry tub
using better yeast and tossing the yeast under the kit lid in the bin.

Tough love mate but your beer will love you for it.

After all you will be making beer way above any home brew your mates may be brewing and way better than the mega breweries pump out for 15 mins of putting a pot on the stove to boil some hops and malt.

Good luck and let us know how your beers are turning out!


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## shayes (9/12/09)

petesbrew said:


> Understand your wanting to keep it simple. So here's some supermarket ideas.
> If you look in the honey aisle you can somtimes find Saunders Malt Extract. I've used that with success.
> You haven't tried the dark & stout kits yet. Both are winners, and brilliant put together. Search for the toucan threads here.
> The Canadian Blonde, and Aussie Pale Ale kits are both winners. Haven't tried the bitter yet.
> ...



+1 on the Saunders Malt Extract from the honey aisle in Woolies.
I tried that with a Tooheys Classic Dry Lager tin + 1kg tin of Tooheys liquid brewing sugar. End result was more successful than the tin of Coopers Lager + BE1 and similar K&K combinations I'm used to. Slowly improving now (I think <_< ) with steeped hops additions and better temperature control (Got a 500L fridge for $20 to use as fermentation fridge!! Woot!)


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## booyablack (9/12/09)

Anyone tried the Cooper's Ginger Beer can of goop that you can get at Coles? I'm thinking about trying to make a ginger beer and that seems to be one of the only kits for ginger beer that I've seen.

The can says to use 1kg of raw sugar but would it be wise to add some LDME as well or is this not good in a ginger beer?

Any advice on ginger beer would be greatly appreciated.



Booyablack


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## zabond (9/12/09)

Nev if you want a simple improver to your basic kit just add 450ml[aprox]golden syrup-improves head retention and gives a smooth mouthfeel,but the first time you try steeping grain[piece a piss]your brewing enjoyment will go skyward
alway remember to try and keep your temp under 20* doesnt matter if it drops to 10* in warragul winter it will still be ok might just take a bit longer,but dont try to get it up to the sugested 24* range as sugested in the can instructions
sanitisation & temp control are the two most important things to get a good/enjoyable kit beer
Russ


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## mfdu (9/12/09)

if you're sticking to the supermarket supplies, 
+1 for saunders malt extract
experiment with 500g honey - it doesnt stay sweet, but leaves good aroma + head.
while we're at it , rice syrup in the heath food aisle. and treacle, too.
build a starter from the kit yeast so it's healthier (it's easy to do - 500ml boiled cooled water with 3 teaspoons sugar disolved into it. into a sterile jar, cover with gladwrap. use after at least 2 hours, overnight is ok.
pitch a healthy 500ml yeast starter!
ferment at 16 degrees


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## bum (9/12/09)

mfdu said:


> build a starter from the kit yeast so it's healthier (it's easy to do - 500ml boiled cooled water with 3 teaspoons sugar disolved into it. into a sterile jar, cover with gladwrap. use after at least 2 hours, overnight is ok.
> pitch a healthy 500ml yeast starter!



1. That's not really a starter. That's just rehydrating (but that's too much water and the sugar isn't necessary).
2. My reading suggests that making starter with even high quality dried yeasts is kinda pointless. Just pitch or rehydrate (as per manufacturer's advice, not the directions above) and pitch.



booyablack said:


> Anyone tried the Cooper's Ginger Beer can of goop that you can get at Coles?


This kit is pretty awful when made to label instructions. But it can turn out a cracker of a beer when you add stuff to it. I use a very similar recipe to this and love it and by all reports the GB from the recipe is tops as is:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...&recipe=972


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## RobH (9/12/09)

booyablack said:


> Anyone tried the Cooper's Ginger Beer can of goop that you can get at Coles? I'm thinking about trying to make a ginger beer and that seems to be one of the only kits for ginger beer that I've seen.
> 
> The can says to use 1kg of raw sugar but would it be wise to add some LDME as well or is this not good in a ginger beer?
> 
> ...



I made it 5 weeks ago just followed the non-alcoholic method on the tin. It's not bad now after 4-5 weeks in the bottles ... quite good, but I have had better.


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## nevbass (9/12/09)

ZABOND said:


> Nev if you want a simple improver to your basic kit just add 450ml[aprox]golden syrup-improves head retention and gives a smooth mouthfeel,but the first time you try steeping grain[piece a piss]your brewing enjoyment will go skyward
> alway remember to try and keep your temp under 20* doesnt matter if it drops to 10* in warragul winter it will still be ok might just take a bit longer,but dont try to get it up to the sugested 24* range as sugested in the can instructions
> sanitisation & temp control are the two most important things to get a good/enjoyable kit beer
> Russ




Thanks Russ, I'll do just that. Do you buy your gear from Yarragon or on-line?? I think I might need to learn a bit about steeping grain!!


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## boingk (9/12/09)

Another word on easy improvements:

Try Coopers Brew Enhancer 2 ('BE2') instead of dextrose, or 1kg of light dried malt (LDME). See how it goes after trying both. Personally, I prefer 500g LDME and 300g Dextrose for adding to a kit.

Try better yeasts like the aforementioned US-05. Also try fermenting at lower temperatures (18-20'C). I just use a wet t-shirt and a small fan on in the room. This keeps things below 20 in all but the most hellish weather.

A really easy way to use hops is to put around 20g of hop pellets into the fermenter after the first 4 days of fermentation. Leave them for another 4 to 7 days and then bottle the beer - don't worry, they sink to the bottom and don't need straining. They will add great flavour and aroma to your beer and are a cheap and very easy improvement.

Another 'tip of the trade' is to make the beers up slightly under volume. I tend to make kits up to 21~21.5 litres instead of the 23 stated on most labels and find it works well for me.

Cheers, hope this is some help - boingk


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## henderjo (9/12/09)

Coopers English Bitter as per kit + 500gm LDM - all from the super market = best kit beer I've had yet. It's a mid colored beer that tastes lighter than it looks. Might have to ask them to get it in though  
Hendo.


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## zabond (10/12/09)

Nev I get my cans from safeway or traralgon HB[thomas cooper range]or coopers direct,grains /yeast ect online from craftbrewers[top of page]freight costs about petrol from home to traralgon return up to about 4kg,tried yarragon but with limited range kept in a hot tin shed,yeast on shelf[not in fridge]plus overpriced dried malts & only 1 grain I give him a miss,tried to talk to him once when I needed yeast for a brew got a packet from him but the yeast was dead[cooked I think]when I rang and complained and sugested that it should be kept cool/refrigerated he implied I didnt know chit and its fine on the shelf in his "hot house"but craftbrewer is my choice usually 2-3 days delivery and very good quality/service.Off topic there seems to be a growing number of HB'ers in this area maybe we might have to try and get together to swap ideas/approach yarragon enmass and tell him what WE want & not accept just what he wants to sell so everyones a winner[he gets customers we get quality]  
Russ


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## nevbass (10/12/09)

ZABOND said:


> Nev I get my cans from safeway or traralgon HB[thomas cooper range]or coopers direct,grains /yeast ect online from craftbrewers[top of page]freight costs about petrol from home to traralgon return up to about 4kg,tried yarragon but with limited range kept in a hot tin shed,yeast on shelf[not in fridge]plus overpriced dried malts & only 1 grain I give him a miss,tried to talk to him once when I needed yeast for a brew got a packet from him but the yeast was dead[cooked I think]when I rang and complained and sugested that it should be kept cool/refrigerated he implied I didnt know chit and its fine on the shelf in his "hot house"but craftbrewer is my choice usually 2-3 days delivery and very good quality/service.Off topic there seems to be a growing number of HB'ers in this area maybe we might have to try and get together to swap ideas/approach yarragon enmass and tell him what WE want & not accept just what he wants to sell so everyones a winner[he gets customers we get quality]
> Russ



Sounds good. I have a mate at Cloverlea who started brewing around the same time as me. He makes a good Coopers Sparkling Ale style, but has also had some 'local' issues with supply!! Happy to get together to talk beer and sample a few!! Good idea.


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## nevbass (11/12/09)

Well, I'm going to make another Canadian Blond with better Yeast and the Saunders Malt to see how that goes. How much dex should I put in with it?? I have a BH1 and a 500gm packet of #10 in the cupboard, would any of these be any good or should I look at something else? Not too sure of how much I should use either!!

Will the Saunders make the brew too malty??


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## zabond (11/12/09)

Nev brewcraft.com.au brewing calculators there are two calcs #1-imput your ingrediants ect it will give you an est og/fg/alc% you can play around to get what your after.#2 final alc% og your hyd fg= aprox alc%
saunders is a dark malt extract so will swing the blonde[which is pretty bland]to a darker style malt beer but maybe on the sweet/malty side without additional hops for bittering,dont know whats in be#10,the more dex you put in the higher alc% but reduces the body feel,if you could get a teabag of cascade hops make a cup up[pour boiling water on it in a cup let it steep 15 mins then add liquid & teabag to ferm this will add some bitterness & aroma if you dont want a malty beer I go the blonde-be#10[if you know what enhancer it is-ale/larger/wheat?]-500g be1 should give you about 5%alc in 22 ltrs.saf 05 yeast pitch about 26* ferm about 18*
Russ 
ps say hi to Phil


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## nevbass (12/12/09)

Thanks to everyone for their great advice.

I have a whole heap of ideas to trial now.

Last night I made a Canadian Blond with 500grams of Dex, 500 grams of liquid malt. I also used a decent yeast from a brew shop fridge, and steeped 25 grams of hops.

I'll keep ya' posted!!


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## manticle (13/12/09)

I see a lot of posts that recommend replacing all simple sugars with malt. As an all grain brewer, my beers are mostly (usually entirely) made with malt. However what simple suggestions of ALL MALT ignore is that beer (good beer anyway) is a balance. Purism vs practicality.

Malt extract is a great addition to a kit beer but too much malt extract can lead to underattenuated, overly sweet beers which lack complexity. By fiddling with your amounts of different sugars like dextrose and maltose, you can tweak your kit or extract beer to your liking. It's not as simple as just replacing the 'sugar' with malt. You have body, dryness and finish to consider and all malt can be overly sweet, underattenuated and cloying without the malt complextity you get from grain.


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## bum (13/12/09)

Your point is (largely) a fair one but it ignores the fact that many have suggested the introduction of a hop boil along with the use of LDME. Applied judiciously, this can easily balance the extra sweetness. Also, I'm not entirely sure how much complexity or depth of character dex may add to a k&k.


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## fiat84 (13/12/09)

500g unhopped dry malt vs. 1KG unhopped dry malt in a Coopers Stout kit results: Both versions are good and there is noticeably less bitterness, more malt flavor in the 1KG unhopped dry malt version which most people have preferred. Granted the Coopers Stout kit is a very bitter kit so the 1KG unhopped dry malt does significantly reduce the bitterness level if that is the goal. With our stout example can hypothesize how a less bitter kit could/would end up sweeter than desired with 1KG unhopped dry malt especially for the people who prefer bitter beer. My bro in law loves extremely hoppy, bitter beer and that is his taste compared to most of our brew crew who prefer a mild bitterness level. 

We made a few Coopers Pilsener lager yeast kits with 1KG "hopped dry malt" and they did not end up too sweet after full carbonation. Appears luckily for us the closest local store only stocks "hopped light dry malt" since where we are located there is no easy local access to hops, special crystal malts, or better yeasts.

A number of general forum post references to lighter, less bitter kits made with no more than 500g unhopped dry malt does not over sweeten and will improve a beer kit compared to using only 1KG dextrose alone. Assuming no other ingredients are added like the helpful suggestions mentioned in this thread.


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## manticle (13/12/09)

bum said:


> Your point is (largely) a fair one but it ignores the fact that many have suggested the introduction of a hop boil along with the use of LDME. Applied judiciously, this can easily balance the extra sweetness. Also, I'm not entirely sure how much complexity or depth of character dex may add to a k&k.




What I'm suggesting is balancing the amount of malt with a touch of dex (or at least considering it) - not going exclusively one or the other. Because you have no control over the mash temperature, you have little control over the final attenuation and extract brews are renowned for finishing higher than either kit or AG brews. I'm suggesting judicious use of dextrose can help refine this.

It's a general response - not only to this thread but many others where I see 'drop the dex and use all malt'. I suggest instead working out the balance of each ingredient and using it to make the final product taste, look and feel how you like. I'm on the side of malt believe me - it's just that an overly sweet brew (and I've tasted some and made some) could be fixed with just a smidge of simple sugar in the beginning stages.


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