# Wheat Beer Mash Regime..



## scrumpy (5/7/09)

gonna give this wheat a stab next week and i was wondering what a suitable mash regime would be. Ive read that weizen recepies would greatly benifit from some sort of step regime with protien rests, Ive not used this type of method before and would appretiate some insite on other brewers methods. also would a measured amount of rice husks be neccecary?

3100gms German Wheat Malt 
2500gms German Pilsner Malt
200gms German Carahelles Malt
wyeast weihenstephan weizen 3060
25gms perle 60min


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## mattbrewer (5/7/09)

I tend to only use 40-50% wheat in the grain bill. This combined with the taste provided by the yeast is enough to give a nice wheatiness. With this much I have never had an issue with stuck sparges so I haven't thought about rice husks. Just don't crush the whaet too finely.

My method is a 20 minute enzyme rest at 40 for the barley portion. A seperate quick enzyme rest for the wheat then up to a 20min protein rest at 50. Then combine in the mash. Just don't leave in the protien rest too long as it tends to make the resulting beer cloudy. I don't understand that yet.

This gives a good efficiency and a nice clear beer (I think your yeast is a hefeweizen??).

I also use flavour and aroma hops and they don't over power the wheat and yeast.

Matt


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## gap (5/7/09)

mattbrewer said:


> My method is a 20 minute enzyme rest at 40 for the barley portion. A seperate quick enzyme rest for the wheat then up to a 20min protein rest at 50. Then combine in the mash. Just don't leave in the protien rest too long as it tends to make the resulting beer cloudy. I don't understand that yet.
> 
> This gives a good efficiency and a nice clear beer (I think your yeast is a hefeweizen??).
> 
> ...



Aren't wheat beers supposed to be cloudy?


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## mattbrewer (5/7/09)

Only if a yeast variety is used where the yeast stay in suspension. I suppose I mainly use the Belgian wheat Wyeast that flocculates out well leaving a clear beer.

Matt


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## gap (5/7/09)

mattbrewer said:


> Only if a yeast variety is used where the yeast stay in suspension. I suppose I mainly use the Belgian wheat Wyeast that flocculates out well leaving a clear beer.
> 
> Matt




A Belgian Wit (Hoegaarden) is not supposed to be clear either.

Besides he is using a German Wheat yeast not a Beldian Wit yeast.


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## mattbrewer (5/7/09)

We could argue for hours and not answer Srumpys' question. I'm sure there are many past threads adressing the topic. My reason for doing the protien rest is to break down some of the extra proteins that exist in wheat so my resultant beer has no protien haze. This is what I have interpreted from my reading.

By chance, tonight I had both a belgian wit beer (nice and cloudy due to suspended protein) and a belgian wheat beer (nice and clear due to nothing in suspension) whist watching the footy. Both were very nice.

Matt


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## hockadays (5/7/09)

A rest from 50-55 deg for 15mins then 60mins at 67degc Mash out at 75degc. Your recipe looks good too. Good luck.


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## scrumpy (5/7/09)

hockadays said:


> A rest from 50-55 deg for 15mins then 60mins at 67degc Mash out at 75degc. Your recipe looks good too. Good luck.



so do i heat my mash water to achieve a mash temp of 50deg, then let sit for the 15min, then raise temp to 67deg for another 60min??
just tryin to get this clear in my head, and avoid any stuff ups!! 

cheers Hockadays!


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## mattbrewer (5/7/09)

Yes, sounds good.

Good luck with the wheat beers, they have become my favourites.


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## Screwtop (5/7/09)

Can't believe what I'm reading above :blink: 



> This gives a good efficiency and a nice clear beer (I think your yeast is a hefeweizen??).



There are a number of wheat beer styles, German, Belgian and American. And a number of wheat beer yeast strains. German Hefeweizen (hefe, German for Yeast and Weizen, German for Wheat) is a cloudy wheat beer (mit hefe). Crystalweizen is naturally a wheat beer with the yeast filtered out. Southern or Bavarian wheat beers are often referred to as Weissbier (white beer) and there are also different styles of German wheat beer, some dry and clovey and some more sweet with banana esters.

A North German mash schedule such as the one suggested by Zwickel below will provide a clovey dry wheat beer, a typical tart wheat beer.

42 rest for 30-40 min. (ferulic-acid rest)
step up to 63 for 30min,
step to 72 for 30min,
step to 78 for mash out.


For a weizen that is a little more sweet use 50/50 wheat/barley and a single 66 sacc rest. It will be less clovey, use a typical Bavarian wheat yeast fermented at 22 to take advantage of the isoamyl acetate (banana) ester production. 

Aim for an OG around 1.046 and 16 IBU from a noble hop such as Tettnang for good balance.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## mattbrewer (6/7/09)

Looks like I have offended the style police.

I could try to replicate some of the wheat styles that you point out. However my wife and I were aiming for an easy drinking summer beer based on wheat malt but without strong banana/bubble gum flavours. I tried a few wheat yeasts and settled on the Belgian wheat WYeast. It is now a recognised beer style in my brewing shed. I hope that's alright!!

The mashing schedule I recommended is probably pretty good for a first time wheat mash. However I'll give the schedule you recommend a go this weekend.

Matt


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## Fourstar (6/7/09)

Screwtop said:


> Can't believe what I'm reading above :blink:



Ha, The blind leading the blind! :lol: 



mattbrewer said:


> Looks like I have offended the style police.



Hey Matt, it looks like you are brewing a German Weizen malt bill with a Belgian yeast. A German witbier or a Belgian Weizen so to speak. A Hybrid, nothing more. Most new brewers, uneducated with traditional european beers confuse Wit/witbier and Wiezen/weissbeir thinking/assuming they mean the same thing and are interchangable. Unfortunatly, they are not. The hops in these beers are neutral, so they dont throw anything off. (unless you use styiran goldings in a wit, its unlikly you will see these in a weizen.)

For the record, cloudyness differences between and German and a Belgian:

German = Yeast in suspension.. this is not protien haze and for aussie and euro malts, protien rests are not often required unless you have a big chunk of adjunct. If anything you will end up killing your head retention by doing this.

Belgian = Starch Haze, yep starch from UNMALTED wheat. if you are using malted wheat for majority of your wheat portion of the grist.. it aint a witbier (some would say any malted wheat is no longer a wit). The tartness comes from the unmalted wheat, herb/spice and from the belgian yeast.

In the end, if you aint brewing "to style" your house specialty is simply a 'wheat beer' not a weizen nor a wit. Either way, a 50:50 Barley/Wheat with a highly phenolic belgian yeast would be a interesting beer! I'd perfer the traditional Weihenstephan Weizen Wyeast 3068.


All this talk about wheat beers is getting me antsy to brew one.... looks like it might be a triple brew weekend!



scrumpy said:


> gonna give this wheat a stab next week and i was wondering what a suitable mash regime would be. Ive read that weizen recepies would greatly benifit from some sort of step regime with protien rests, Ive not used this type of method before and would appretiate some insite on other brewers methods. also would a measured amount of rice husks be neccecary?
> 
> 3100gms German Wheat Malt
> 2500gms German Pilsner Malt
> ...




Ok, follow Screwys method noted above for the phenolic reasons or a simple single infusion @66deg, If you do a protien rest all you will do is kill off any chances of having a fluffy weizen head on your beer. The reason for the moderate mash temp is high carbonation and the wheat can give the feeling that its quite thin/dry. if you mash below this, it may feel like you are drinking soda water.


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## hefevice (6/7/09)

mattbrewer said:


> Looks like I have offended the style police.
> 
> I could try to replicate some of the wheat styles that you point out. However my wife and I were aiming for an easy drinking summer beer based on wheat malt but without strong banana/bubble gum flavours. I tried a few wheat yeasts and settled on the Belgian wheat WYeast. It is now a recognised beer style in my brewing shed. I hope that's alright!!
> 
> ...



Pretty much agree with Screwtop with the mash - given todays well modified malts, main point is Ferulic acid rest, and there may be some benefit for sparging from a Glucan rest. As I had no way of stepping while maintaining appropriate mash thickness, I used decoctions to get the steps (with 10-15 min rest for sac on the way up to boiling). My rests were 40C (Glucan), 45C (Ferulic Acid) and 66C (Sac). Didn't need rice hulls, although the sparge was very slow. Really simple grist - 50/50 Pilsner to Wheat targeting an OG of 1.050, with about 15IBU from a single Hallertau addition at 60 mins.

Took a different approach with the fermentation; 17C using 3068. Results were spectacular, subtle banana esters in balance with the phenolics.

Have tried a single infusion with rice hulls, but I screwed up too much for it to be a valid comparison (didn't come out anywhere near as good).


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## mattbrewer (6/7/09)

Thanks for the info Fourstar. I'll try the brew without the protien rest. By the way that is not my recipe.
I use the Belgian Wheat 3942 as it is a fairly 'neutral' yeast and alot of commercial beer drinkers, and dare I say it, females love the taste (not that I'm trying to impress them). I have never called it anything other than a 'wheat beer'.

I also do a nice witbeer, yes 45% unmalted wheat. The Dutch lady in the office next door gets excited when I do a new batch.

Matt


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## blackbock (6/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> Ha, The blind leading the blind! :lol:
> 
> .. If you do a protien rest all you will do is kill off any chances of having a fluffy weizen head on your beer. The reason for the moderate mash temp is high carbonation and the wheat can give the feeling that its quite thin/dry. if you mash below this, it may feel like you are drinking soda water.



Oh dear, here we go again with people spreading the baseless rumour that Protein rests kill head.

I challenge anyone to brew an AG Weizen using a protein rest which has poor head.


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## Screwtop (6/7/09)

mattbrewer said:


> Looks like I have offended the style police.
> 
> I could try to replicate some of the wheat styles that you point out. However my wife and I were aiming for an easy drinking summer beer based on wheat malt but without strong banana/bubble gum flavours. I tried a few wheat yeasts and settled on the Belgian wheat WYeast. It is now a recognised beer style in my brewing shed. I hope that's alright!!
> 
> ...




He no offense Matt, it's just that scrumpy asked for some weizen advice, that being a German style. You brew whatever spins your wheels, I have a fav that I call Rory, a red ale. Because it uses Irish Yeast and American hops I usually state "I'ts Not a Freakin Irish Red" :lol:

Screwy


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## Fourstar (6/7/09)

blackbock said:


> Oh dear, here we go again with people spreading the baseless rumour that Protein rests kill head.
> I challenge anyone to brew an AG Weizen using a protein rest which has poor head.



Challenge science and this very good source: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title..._Mash_Schedules


> _Less modified malts benefit from a rest closer to 122 *F (50 *C) which produces more amino acids, which is an essential yeast nutrient. In undermodified malts the protein conversion has not been driven far enough during malting to allow for sufficient wort FAN (free amino nitrogen) without the use of a more intensive protein rest. If the malt is a well modified modern malt, the protein rest temperature should be kept closer to 133 *F (55 *C) and the next decoction should be pulled 5 - 10 minutes after the rest temperature has been reached._ _This serves to protect more of the medium chained proteins that are important for body and head retention._



If i understand correctly, (see red italics) if you perform a low temp protien rest on fully modified malts (which is all thats available to us as homebrewers) you will denature the medium chain protiens rendering any head retenting protiens you may have had, gone.
As most of us refer to a protien rest as 50deg not 55, if you perform a 50deg protien rest on a 50:50 pils:wheat those medium chain protiens you once had are now short chains. However if you do a 55deg protien rest, you will be in the safe zone.

also see paragraph 3: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-4.html


> The typical Protein Rest at 120 - 130F is used to break up proteins which might otherwise cause chill haze and can improve the head retention. This rest should only be used when using moderately-modified malts, or when using fully modified malts with a large proportion (>25%) of unmalted grain, e.g. flaked barley, wheat, rye, or oatmeal. _Using this rest in a mash consisting mainly of *fully modified malts* would break up the proteins responsible for body and head retention and result in a thin, watery beer._ The standard time for a protein rest is 20 - 30 minutes. [/size]



Im happy to be proven wrong on this if my interpretation is wrong!  

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


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## Fourstar (6/7/09)

mattbrewer said:


> Thanks for the info Fourstar. I'll try the brew without the protien rest. By the way that is not my recipe.
> 
> I have never called it anything other than a 'wheat beer'.



Sorry mate, The classification of wit/weizen wasnt solely directed at you, more-so the whole community as there always seems to be somone who just 'doesnt get it'. 
Oh and i was answering the OP question below my little rant RE: the recipe 

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


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## scrumpy (6/7/09)

shit I started a war!!!  

cheers for the info guys! :super: !!!


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## Fourstar (6/7/09)

scrumpy said:


> shit I started a war!!!
> cheers for the info guys! !!!



Nice work Eva Braun... I mean scrumpy! :lol:


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## mattbrewer (6/7/09)

No one here is offended. I always learn something and this is no exception.

This has prompted me to get an old wheat beer out of the cellar and give it a go.

Matt


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## Duff (6/7/09)

mattbrewer said:


> We could argue for hours and not answer Srumpys' question. I'm sure there are many past threads adressing the topic. My reason for doing the protien rest is to break down some of the extra proteins that exist in wheat so my resultant beer has no protien haze. This is what I have interpreted from my reading.
> 
> By chance, tonight I had both a belgian wit beer (nice and cloudy due to suspended protein) and a belgian wheat beer (nice and clear due to nothing in suspension) whist watching the footy. Both were very nice.
> 
> Matt



Matt,

Will make sure that I have a wheat on tap when the DAG's host the return brewday, probably here in a few weeks (got the V8's in Townsville this weekend). Mine follow the basic principles of the Reinsen-alphabet.

Hope you can bring a few bottles down for tasting. I'll post a date once I confer with the Bunyip.

Don't worry about the style police.

Cheers.


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## Weizguy (6/7/09)

mattbrewer said:


> No one here is offended. I always learn something and this is no exception.
> 
> This has prompted me to get an old wheat beer out of the cellar and give it a go.
> 
> Matt


not the Matilda Bay Dunkelweizen is it?

or Murray's Wheat wine Anniversary ale?

just curious


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## daemon (6/7/09)

Some interesting reading already in this thread, wheat beers seem to have the greatest variance in brewing techniques that I've seen. I'm just enjoying my 2nd wheat beer and it's turned out very tasty despite my basic understanding and methods. I had tried a protein rest on my 2nd batch but it seems this isn't necessary. There's certainly no problem with the head retention or flavour, so it can't have been too detrimental. 

Many of the mash schedules I've seen were very complex but the first run I simply used a single 66c mash. Even with the basic WB-06 dried yeast it was a bloody nice beer although not as phenolic as some of the good commercial beers. I also used the Liberty hops and very happy with the flavour. 

Looking forward to summer to give another light wheat beer a go, they certainly go well with hot weather!


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## Kai (6/7/09)

scrumpy said:


> gonna give this wheat a stab next week and i was wondering what a suitable mash regime would be. Ive read that weizen recepies would greatly benifit from some sort of step regime with protien rests, Ive not used this type of method before and would appretiate some insite on other brewers methods. also would a measured amount of rice husks be neccecary?
> 
> 3100gms German Wheat Malt
> 2500gms German Pilsner Malt
> ...




rice gulls will depend pretty heavily on your system, i've never had any problems sparging with up to 60% wheat myself. 

My personal opinion with wheats and step mashes is if you've a)never done step mashing and B) never brewed a hefeweizen then don't overcomplicate things right out of the box. You can make a killer hefe with a single infusion mash so long as you have a good recipe and really nail the fermentation conditions. Your recipe looks pretty good, but the key with a wheat beer really is in the fermentation (imho). I'd get myself happy with that before I start stepping mashes (unless, of course, you wanna step mashes. In which case, go nuts). I've brewed a few hefeweizens and it's crazy how much difference the yeast and the ferment makes.


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## mattbrewer (6/7/09)

Looking forward to it already Duff.


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## Wolfy (6/7/09)

You'd probably get fairly decent results with a single simple infusion mash at about 66-67.
A 'traditional German 50-60-70' mash regime is pretty much the steps outlined by others above.

Just for some more amusement you could do a decotion mash:
Mash in at say 50 for say 30mins
Decoct 8-10l and boil it, return to the mash for 65-70 for 45mins.
Mash out at 75.

Lots of ways to do it, and I'm sure that mostly all of them will result in some decent beer, which is the whole point of the exercise.


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## blackbock (7/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> Challenge science and this very good source: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title..._Mash_Schedules
> ...
> Im happy to be proven wrong on this if my interpretation is wrong!
> 
> Cheers! :icon_cheers:



The whole point of science is to be challenged. Just because somebody makes a claim which may (or may not) contain some correct information doesn't mean that that is the end of the story. People have been regurgitating the theories above ad nauseum, but the fact is that the practical results don't really seem to agree in all cases. 

It's not about being proven wrong, and ego is a dangerous thing.


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## Px3t (7/7/09)

condsidering how many brewers out there are using protein rests and step mashes, is a pretty popular technique for something that ruins your beer


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## hockadays (7/7/09)

blackbock said:


> Oh dear, here we go again with people spreading the baseless rumour that Protein rests kill head.
> 
> I challenge anyone to brew an AG Weizen using a protein rest which has poor head.




I agree I think the amount of wheat in a weizen it will still hold it's head


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## Fourstar (7/7/09)

blackbock said:


> I challenge anyone to brew an AG Weizen using a protein rest which has poor head.





blackbock said:


> Just because somebody makes a claim which may (or may not) contain some correct information doesn't mean that that is the end of the story.



The reason i got up on my soap-box was because i had taken this infromation from a reliable source, with scientific evidence and the reasons why you should not perform low temp protien rests on fully modified malts (which is all that we use). Not from hearsay, statistics (which prove nothing mroe than a 'trend'), Chinese whispers or because "ive made weizens with a protien rest and i have not had head retention issues." This doesn't mean squat. "I can drive my car with no hands and I havn't crashed before" doesnt mean you wont anytime soon in the future.

All im saying is low temp protien rests denature these medium chain protiens. The longer you sit at a low temp protien rest, the more of these protiens you denature and remove. Sit there long enough and your wort will end up thin and LACKING the medium chain protiens that where once in abundance in your wort, now minimal or non existant.

It doesnt stop me from incorporating protien rests in beers with adjunct. But doing a protien rest because "i guess i should"? Without any hard pressed reasons why, is just plain ignorant. If you dont know what it does, why you do it or most importantly is not required... dont do it.


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## muckanic (7/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> If i understand correctly, (see red italics) if you perform a low temp protien rest on fully modified malts (which is all thats available to us as homebrewers) you will denature the medium chain protiens rendering any head retenting protiens you may have had, gone.



There is the small matter of the 50% wheat malt that happens to be in there in the mash. Is that "fully modified"? Is it an "adjunct"? There is also the small matter that the traditional German method involves decoction, and I don't think they do it for idle reasons. 



> As most of us refer to a protien rest as 50deg not 55, if you perform a 50deg protien rest on a 50:50 pils:wheat those medium chain protiens you once had are now short chains. However if you do a 55deg protien rest, you will be in the safe zone.



I personally refer to a protein rest as anything that is in the protease or peptidase digestion zones. Given that mashes noticeably sweeten at 50C whereas beta amylase works optimally at 60C+, I would say that zone could be a lot wider than people think. In fact, I will stick my neck out and say that the difference between 50C and 55C may be not be as significant as people think in practice. Sorry, no stats to back that assertion up.

Whilst I'm on my hobby-horse, why all this infatuation with performing the starch conversion at high temperatures for extra body? The coldest conversion is still going to result in 80% attenuation at most. That's a terminal gravity of 10 from an original gravity of 50. Far more all-grainers seem to complain about under-attenuation than over-attenuation. How sweet do you want it exactly?


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## Fourstar (7/7/09)

muckanic said:


> There is the small matter of the 50% wheat malt that happens to be in there in the mash. Is that "fully modified"? Is it an "adjunct"? There is also the small matter that the traditional German method involves decoction, and I don't think they do it for idle reasons.
> 
> Whilst I'm on my hobby-horse, why all this infatuation with performing the starch conversion at high temperatures for extra body? The coldest conversion is still going to result in 80% attenuation at most. That's a terminal gravity of 10 from an original gravity of 50. Far more all-grainers seem to complain about under-attenuation than over-attenuation. How sweet do you want it exactly?



*Paragraph 1.* Good point. One i cannot answer, i'd only assume its fully modified. When i was referring to adjunct i meant unmalted grain. As for decotion mashing, this only eventuated by accident (like most great things in life) as they where able to take malts with poor/low modification and take it through a multi step mashing regieme and produce better beer from it. As we use fully modified.. the "decoction" has been done for us. The only reason for me to do a decoction would be for creating melanoidens or doing a Bohemian Pilsner with a Acid rest (to adjust pH with soft water), ramp to sacch temps, then mashout.

If i was lazy and doing a traditional "German Pils" i'd simply add a mixture of Munich/Melanoiden @5-8%~ to get the melanoidens going on.

*Paragraph 2. *IMO, attenuation for homebrewers is mostly related to poor yeast handling/propogation and fermentation control. As for extra body, i dont know if you are going to gain any at those upper temps as those longer chains are probabaly already broken down... thats just speculation.


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## muckanic (7/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> The only reason for me to do a decoction would be for creating melanoidens or doing a Bohemian Pilsner with a Acid rest (to adjust pH with soft water), ramp to sacch temps, then mashout.



The Germans, using well-modified barley malt, decoct weizen and roggen worts primarily for ease of sparging. So there's an additional reason to employ some form of protein rest, although it should be borne in mind that the geometry of home lauter tuns is not necessarily the same as the commercial variety.

PS: I'm fairly sure that the haze in most weizens is protein and not just yeast. Warner, for example, goes on about the difficulties of filtration.



> As for extra body, i dont know if you are going to gain any at those upper temps as those longer chains are probabaly already broken down... thats just speculation.



I was actually talking about dextrins. One slightly off the wall idea: if folks seriously want more dextrins in weizen beers (for reasons that I don't completely agree with), they could try a turbid mashing technique. This involves drawing off some wort before the beta amylase has had time to do its thing, heating it, then adding it back in later.


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## Fourstar (7/7/09)

muckanic said:


> PS: I'm fairly sure that the haze in most weizens is protein and not just yeast. Warner, for example, goes on about the difficulties of filtration.



Yep, any haze post filtration would be proteins in the form of cold break still in the fermented beer aka chill haze. For example in a krystallweizen, if it was hazy at serving temps then cleared as it warmed up would be a wort stability issue/poor cold break formation, not an issue relating to mash or fermentation. On this topic, Ive heard all weizens are filtered for stability and then topped up in the bottle with lager yeast as there are much more shelf stable than ales and increase the shelf life length. (this is also mentioned in the lagering brewstong episode that has recenty been released.)

What I was discussing earlier was starch haze. RE:witbier... totally different kettle of fish.

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


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## hefevice (7/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> On this topic, Ive heard all weizens are filtered for stability and then topped up in the bottle with lager yeast as there are much more shelf stable than ales and increase the shelf life length. (this is also mentioned in the lagering brewstong episode that has recenty been released.)



Not all. I think Schneider Weisse is unfiltered, and the bottle strain is the fermenation strain. On the other hand, Weihenstephaner is filtered with a lager yeast used as a bottling strain.


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## butisitart (29/5/15)

i just did my first gf wheat beer, so i combined wheat and barley mash regimes to see how it would go - so mash went...

67% wheat, 33% barley, and a cup or 2 rice hulls

wheat and hulls only-
10 mins @45
10 mins @52

then i added barley and went

30mins @63
30 mins @68
20mins @72

no mash out.

that were a combination of wheat and barley suggestions at forum topic _stepped mashing schedules, _first posting in that topic.

anybody else do a split for the lower temps? any difference on end result?? my understanding is not to do mod barley at the lower temps, thus the split.


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