# Belgian Candi Syrup



## rupal (25/3/07)

Hello, Has anyone had any experience with the "Belgian Candi Syrup" from G&G ? I am brewing a Belgian beer using 2x Brewferm abdij (Abby) kits , Link: http://www.brewferm.be/en/brew_prod1.htm , In the instructions it says to use 500g of sugar or 5% more if using Candi Sugar. Would i use the same amount of Candi Syrup as i would with Candi Sugar ?


----------



## Doc (25/3/07)

Slightly off topic, but I didn't know that G&G had the Belgian Candy Syrup .
I've been at Ross to try and get it in for almost 12 months, but he hasn't had a good response from the Belgians or the US Importer (too expensive on the later).
If you were looking to use the clear, I wouldn't bother and just use normal table sugar. I've used the Amber and the Dark Candy sugar (from G&G), for both colour and fermentables, but you could do the same with other less refined sugars also.

As for quantity 5% more because it actually contains some water.

Beers,
Doc


----------



## kook (25/3/07)

It's aparently $11.95 per KG, and the good stuff (as sold by B3 etc).


----------



## rupal (25/3/07)

hi, thanks for the reply, G&G only sells the Dark Candi Syrup, but they don't have have it on their website yet.
So i would use 1050g of the Dark Candi Syrup in my brew since i am using 2 Brewferm kits to make 18L ?
is that right?


----------



## Vlad the Pale Aler (25/3/07)

How much different is candi syrup from Lyles Golden Syrup?


----------



## goatherder (25/3/07)

I'm not sure of the exact differences, just that it is a different product altogether. There is a bit of info here, especially on the pic of the label: http://www.brewlikeamonk.com/2006/04/24/be...ble-in-america/

Basic brewing radio did a show late last year which compared 6 different brewing sugars in a belgian style brew. The candy syrup came out on top according to the taste test. I'm pretty keen to try it out.


----------



## Murcluf (25/3/07)

Doc said:


> Slightly off topic, but I didn't know that G&G had the Belgian Candy Syrup .
> I've been at Ross to try and get it in for almost 12 months, but he hasn't had a good response from the Belgians or the US Importer (too expensive on the later).
> If you were looking to use the clear, I wouldn't bother and just use normal table sugar. I've used the Amber and the Dark Candy sugar (from G&G), for both colour and fermentables, but you could do the same with other less refined sugars also.
> 
> ...


The Grand Master put me on to raiding Asian Grocers for rock sugar as a sub for Belgium's I also hit them up for Corn Syrup while I'm there, they must think I 'm some sugar junkie

Belgium Candi Sugar and Rock Sugar both very much look the same to me.

One day I will snatch those pebbles from his hand h34r:


----------



## braufrau (25/3/07)

Murcluf said:


> Belgium Candi Sugar and Rock Sugar both very much look the same to me.



candi sugar and rock sugar shouldn't look the same.
Candy sugar is made by "inverting" sugar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup
This converts some of the sucrose into fructose and glucose which means that
the molecules can no longer stack nicely, so they don't make crystals. Instead
they make the glass like, smooth, and smooth on the tongue stuff we eat in 
the toffees our mums made and lollipops.
http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/candy/sugar.html

Rock candy on the other hand is made by putting some some sort of nucleation site,
like a string, in a saturated solution of sucrose. The sucrose, in these conditions, makes
big crystals, or rocks. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_candy
But its still just sucrose. Whereas invert sugar is sucrose, fructose and glucose
which is metabolised differently by yeast.

I've noticed some sites, especially americans, advocating rock candy as a subsitute for belgian
candy sugar but its not the same stuff. You may as well use table sugar as rock sugar.


----------



## bconnery (26/3/07)

braufrau said:


> candi sugar and rock sugar shouldn't look the same.



Shouldn't, and yet they do...

THe rock sugar pictured, the asian rock sugar isn't the same as rock candy as shown on those links. 

This page outlines details about it though...

http://jodelibakery.netfirms.com/ingredients/sugars.htm

Made from refined sugar cane juice apparently. The process to make it should mean it provides a slightly different flavour than straight out refined sugar though I'd imagine. 

Interestly it confirms what someone asked/mentioned earlier that golden syrup is an invert sugar syrup, i.e. made by heating with citric acid so would be a good easily available alternative to the candi syrup favoured by belgians, except of course it only comes in one colour...


----------



## braufrau (26/3/07)

here's a nice page
about different sugars, how some are made, used and taste. Might be handy


----------



## braufrau (26/3/07)

rupal said:


> Hello, Has anyone had any experience with the "Belgian Candi Syrup" from G&G ? I am brewing a Belgian beer using 2x Brewferm abdij (Abby) kits , Link: http://www.brewferm.be/en/brew_prod1.htm , In the instructions it says to use 500g of sugar or 5% more if using Candi Sugar. Would i use the same amount of Candi Syrup as i would with Candi Sugar ?



Oh that's interesting, you can read the ratios of fructose, glucose and sucrose on the label.
Looks like about half the sucrose has been inverted. And its must be 36% water.
So, assuming candi sugar has no water, you'd use about 1.5 times more syrup than solid.

The ratios of invert to sucrose is about the same as golden syrup, but golden syrup is salty because
its had NaOH added.

It also gives the method on the label used for removing part of the sucrose from the syrup.

There's a couple of methods for making partially inverted sugar syrup here


How about this? You can add
your candy sugar and orange peel into your Belgian beer in one fell, sticky swoop!


----------



## rupal (26/3/07)

Thanks for those links, i will have a read through them.


----------



## Rod (26/3/07)

In my last batch of Belgium brew a tripple from Brewferm

I made my own belgian candy sugar , pretty easy 

however when I poured it onto the greaseproof paper to cool down to use the next day , it ofcourse went into one hard sticky lump and was hard to dissolve in the wurt 

it appear if you use belgian candy syrup it would be easier to add to the brew

maybe make the sugar candy on the same day , add water in the pan , which would be compensated when you made the brew up to final volume 

KISS


----------



## rupal (26/3/07)

I spoke to the bloke at G&G, and i think i am going to use 500g of their "Belgian Candi Syrup" and to compensate for the rest i am going to use "Light Belgian Candi Sugar" (Rock Form). How would i calculate how much of the Light Candi Sugar (Rock Form) to use if i am using 500g of Dark Candi Syrup ? Sorry if my question sounds a bit stupid, this is my first brew & i dont want to stuff it up.


----------



## Chad (7/6/08)

Noticed tonight that Craftbrewer is now selling the syrup.


----------



## braufrau (7/6/08)

Rod said:


> In my last batch of Belgium brew a tripple from Brewferm
> 
> I made my own belgian candy sugar , pretty easy
> 
> ...



I ended up with a hard intractable mess when I first made "candy sugar". Now I do as you suggest, invert it on the day and dump it into the kettle at flame out. I don't bring it up to 
"hard crack" just to the top end of syrup.
I wonder how this syrup (which I make with white sugar for tripels and CPA) would compare to the bought stuff if you made the syrup with dark sugar?? Probably wouldn't because
dark sugar is white sugar coated with molasses.


----------



## Screwtop (7/6/08)

braufrau said:


> I ended up with a hard intractable mess when I first made "candy sugar". Now I do as you suggest, invert it on the day and dump it into the kettle at flame out.




Brewers on recent US podcasts recommend to boil it up with some water and add it a couple of days after fermentation has begun for maximum attenuation.

Screwy


----------



## Darren (7/6/08)

braufrau said:


> I ended up with a hard intractable mess when I first made "candy sugar". Now I do as you suggest, invert it on the day and dump it into the kettle at flame out.
> I wonder how this syrup (which I make with white sugar for tripels and CPA) would compare to the bought stuff if you made the syrup with dark sugar??




Or even make it in the kettle whilst waiting for the mash

cheers

Darren


----------



## Darren (7/6/08)

Screwtop said:


> Brewers on recent US podcasts recommend to boil it up with some water and add it a couple of days after fermentation has begun for maximum attenuation.
> 
> Screwy




Wow,

Fanstastic observation those podcasting US brewers have noticed. Sugar added after pitching actually ferments!!! Quick, rewrite the brewing literature. 
Seems like too much "feeding the chickens" going on with the podcasts

Question remains as to why you would do such a thing?? To complicate the process?? Pretend that you somehow contributed to a body of knowledge???

cheers

Darren


----------



## kevo (7/6/08)

I thought it was so the yeast did the hard work consuming the sugars from the malt first, then had a bit of fun eating the added simple sugars to finish the job.

It makes sense.

If it works then maybe the brewing process needs to be a little more complex - who's going to complain if the beer turns out better?

Kev


----------



## Stuster (7/6/08)

Darren, I know that Gough from Murray's posted very recently that this is also what they do with their Belgians. The reason he gave is that this helps to reduce stress on the yeast in the early stages of fermentation by avoiding having a very high sugar percentage at that point. Works for them apparently (and there beer tastes pretty good to me).


----------



## Darren (7/6/08)

Hey Stuster,

I have seen those posts too and wonder if it is just smoke and mirrors. ie added before or after makes no difference except it seems unique if added afterwards (or the brewer was confused and concerned that the yeast would "puff out" in a higher gravity wort).

Anyhow, what is the ABV of Murrays Belgian?? Nothing over 8% I would suspect. There are not too many belgians strains that would struggle with that OG.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Sammus (7/6/08)

I remember reading an article that suggested all this inverted syrup business is a bit of nonsense, and in a blind taste of there wasnt any marked difference to regular sugar once the beer was ready... Anyone have any non flaming opinions on this? $24 for less than half a litre of candi syrup seems a bit steep, especially when (As someone postd earlier) they need over 1L for a brew...thats over $50 in sugar for your brew...


----------



## Darren (7/6/08)

Sammus said:


> I remember reading an article that suggested all this inverted syrup business is a bit of nonsense, and in a blind taste of there wasnt any marked difference to regular sugar once the beer was ready... Anyone have any non flaming opinions on this? $24 for less than half a litre of candi syrup seems a bit steep, especially when (As someone postd earlier) they need over 1L for a brew...thats over $50 in sugar for your brew...




My opinion is that you can make it at home for $3.00 and can also adjust the amount of colour you desire. How important the citric acid is in the process is debatable.

From the original craftbrewer site

http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/...ers/candy.shtml

cheers

Darren


----------



## Sammus (7/6/08)

Darren said:


> My opinion is that you can make it at home for $3.00 and can also adjust the amount of colour you desire. How important the citric acid is in the process is debatable.
> 
> From the original craftbrewer site
> 
> ...



Yeah thats the one, the debate I read I think was on whether the inverting process makes the kind of differences claimed...


----------



## Darren (7/6/08)

Sammus said:


> Yeah thats the one, the debate I read I think was on whether the inverting process makes the kind of differences claimed...




Invertion maybe not. The colour of sugar after the process is absolutely ******* fantastic though.

Give it a try and you will see.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Sammus (7/6/08)

It's on my to do list!


----------



## Stuster (7/6/08)

Darren said:


> I have seen those posts too and wonder if it is just smoke and mirrors. ie added before or after makes no difference except it seems unique if added afterwards (or the brewer was confused and concerned that the yeast would "puff out" in a higher gravity wort).
> 
> Anyhow, what is the ABV of Murrays Belgian?? Nothing over 8% I would suspect. There are not too many belgians strains that would struggle with that OG.



Well, I guess I agree with you. I've never added the sugar later than the boil and have never had any problems with Belgian beers not attenuating as I expected them too (other than some strains slowing down but getting there in the end). Then again, I've never done a real comparison to see if it makes any difference. I think you're right though that at 8% or so most Belgian strains are just getting into their stride.


----------



## Sammus (7/6/08)

Yeah for the real high gravity yeasts I've read that you have to work em up to it. I guess upon further thinking the only reasonable way to do that would be to add sugar mid ferment.


----------



## hoohaaman (7/6/08)

Sammus said:


> Yeah for the real high gravity yeasts I've read that you have to work em up to it. I guess upon further thinking the only reasonable way to do that would be to add sugar mid ferment.




Mid ferment sugar additions definately give my belgians a more authentic taste,IMHO
Definately helps the yeast out,much cleaner flavours result


----------



## kevo (8/6/08)

When making a belgian strong dark, I added a quarter of the wort to the full amount of yeast each day and it fermented out really well.

Lots of yeast, small amounts of fresh wort added each day, lots of growth and not too much simple sugar at any stage. A bit like making a big starter?

Kev


----------



## jimmyjack (10/6/08)

Found a really informative site regarding sugar



Sugar Link

Cheers,

JJ


----------



## pmolou (12/6/08)

jimmyjack said:


> Found a really informative site regarding sugar
> 
> 
> 
> ...



top info, so many people have asked about all the differant sugars and i'd say this sums it all up very well


----------



## fraser_john (8/7/08)

Does anyone have the formulation of the Dark/Extra Dark syrups for inclusion in promash?


----------



## warrenlw63 (8/7/08)

FJ

Here are the spec sheets for dark candi syrup and extra dark (D2)

Hope this helps.

Warren - 

View attachment specs_dark.pdf


View attachment specs_dark2.pdf


----------



## fraser_john (8/7/08)

Thanks Warren!!


----------

