# Cider Experiment Phase 1



## Deep End (9/5/13)

Well after talking cider most of last night I decided to use some enthusiasm today. Got my juicer out and trotted off down the road and got about 5kg of what appeared to be golden delicious apples from a roadside tree. 

Good mix of small and large, well ignored, sharp smelling apples. Topped that up with 4kg of over ripe gala's from the local veg market at discounted prices and low and behold I have around 5 litres of nasty looking, frothy, greenish, very sharp smelling juice which is currently arguing the point with a teaspoon or so of campden juice and the same again of pectic enzyme. 

When thats finished doing its thing I think I'll strain it, maybe add a little sugar, slip it into a demi john, add some yeast..which I haven't got yet!! and see what becomes of it. I have a feeling its going to be vastly different than your average brigalow can or a bucket load of supermarket juice, but only time will tell. 

I haven't been game enough to taste any of the juice yet, but going on aroma's it should make for an interesting brew. I'll bung a picture or two up later when I get it all sorted and going.


----------



## Deep End (9/5/13)

Just to add, I'd like a bit of feed back here, I can go champagne yeast, or I can source Lalvin K1-V1116 or SN9 straight off the bat with out waiting for the postman. Any considerations as to what would be the most suitable? Thoughts on either if you have used it beforehand? Got to convince someone to stock Wyeast4766 or some WLP775 down here!


----------



## BeardedWonder (9/5/13)

I was highly entertained, watching all your cider discussions last night. 
Sounds like, even if things go awol and it does't turn out, you're at least having fun.

A quick question: What are the campden juice and pectic enzyme used for?? My brain is saying to stop oxidisation, but does that even occur to the juice??


----------



## Deep End (9/5/13)

The campden tablets are used to kill off any existing wild yeasts that may have been present in the juice, and the pectic enzyme eats up all the pectin in the juice and basically gives you a clear cider at the end of the day as opposed to a cloudy one.

On the yeast note I think I might go with the Lalvin and see how it goes.


----------



## Airgead (9/5/13)

campden is an antioxidant and microbial inhibitor. Pectic enzyme breaks down the pectins in the juice and helps it clear.

Deep End - Should come out fine but check the gravity of the juice before addign sugar. It may well be over 6% potential already and unless you want rocket fuel you won't need the sugar.

Regardless of the yeast you use it will more than likely ferment completely dry. A good, neutral yeast would be your best bet for a first go. The 111d should work fine.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Deep End (9/5/13)

Yea I was going to check the gravity first Dave, not looking for rocket fuel, made enough of that lately LOL, 4-5 % will be just fine. If it is exceptionally sugary I imagine I could water it down to the right gravity? Yes?


----------



## drsmurto (9/5/13)

My cider from just Jonathon apples is 6.8%. Finished at 0.998. Despite being dry it is full of flavour. I used WL775 - you can get it posted, it's worth the expense.

Any beer, cider, wine yeast you use should ferment out completely to 1.000 or lower as all the sugars in apple juice are fermentable. If it stops higher then you have a yeast health issue.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (9/5/13)

Where did you get campden from in Tas?

Spreyton juice co (for us NW Coasters) does pressed jucie for $1 per litre, if you bring our own container.


----------



## benen (9/5/13)

My first brew is still in the fermenter yet I'm so excited to try juicing fresh apples and experimenting with flavours. The batch on now is just 18L of UHT apple juice from coles and a sachet of champagne yeast. Why didn't I get into this years ago???


----------



## Deep End (9/5/13)

Can get a capmden solution from the older brew shop in Hobart Goomba, I was thinking of visiting Just Juice, its down the road from me and they do a 100% ORGANIC juice range, was wondering if they might sell me some of that, but thats another subject.

Yea I'm going to get some decent cider yeast posted soon Dr. For no other reason than to use the right yeast for the right application. The Wyeast seems to be the one, although I have seen some yeasts I'd like to try in the catalogue of Craftbrewer on the top of this page.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (9/5/13)

I'm not down there for another 3 weeks (work), so no go for me.


----------



## drsmurto (9/5/13)

Any winery or wine supply shop should be able to supply potassium metabisulfite which is what a campden tablet is.

You don't need it if you pitch the correct amount of healthy yeast immediately.

Pectic enzyme is another unnecessary additive, used for clarifying the juice.


----------



## manticle (9/5/13)

DrSmurto said:


> You don't need it if you pitch the correct amount of healthy yeast immediately.


I'm not a plus one kind of a guy so I'll settle for 'I agree'


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (9/5/13)

After a perry gone bung from windfall, I'm a bit more circumspect.

Last year I did it from shop apples, presumably sprayed. This year, it's mainly home and road apples. Hence the extra question.

And no wine maker shops here that I know of, though there is a health food shop selling some home brew supplies.

Cheers

Goomba


----------



## Deep End (16/5/13)

Well all seemed to be going well, but I think it's stalled after 4 or 5 days....either that or the Lalvin works fast. It's been fermenting at around 16c for the last 5 days and have not seen much action out of the airlock in the last 36 hours. Also it's starting to clear. Any thoughts? I haven't measured the gravity since I put it down as its a bit fiddly in a demi. 

Also heres a few pictures of its progress along the way. Initially the juice seperated into 3 clear layers; Foam and gunk on top, Clear Juice in the middle and Sediment on the bottom. The yeast changed that!

This is the juice, could of possibly strained it a bit better!




This is what it looked like after pitching the Lalvin K1-V1116



This is what it looks like after 5 days, on the left, the right is the NAA I brewed, its about 5 weeks in and still fermenting away.


----------



## Deep End (16/5/13)

Starting Gravity was 1.052, initially it was up around 1.064 but I've made enough jungle juice so I watered it down to 1.052; which will still be stiff I imagine but not so much as it might have been.


----------



## Deep End (20/5/13)

Just while I'm chatty mode tonight, in reagrds to yeast selection and Dave's comments. I know our backyard ciders unwittingly turn out dry regardless of what yeast you put in it. Was thinking more along the lines of what flavour profiles, etc, etc the yeast will bring to the party. Am going to get some Wyeast sooner or later ( 47666 or whatever the cider one is ). Anyway......


----------



## Airgead (21/5/13)

Wine yeast is a little different to beer yeast. They do contribute a little to the flavor but not to the same extent as in beer. Unless you are going farmhouse funk in which case yes, the yeast will make a huge difference.

if you use wine yeast, 99% of your flavour will come from the juice. Some yeasts will be a little sharper, some a little smoother, some will enhance fruit, some will push the fruit back. Its a minor and subtle effect though.

If you use a beer yeast then it will behave in a similar way to the way it behaves in beer and impart a similar flavour profile. I say similar because the balance of sugars and trace elements in juice is completely different to beer so the flavour components that the yeast puts out will be different as well. if the precursor elements of a particular ester aren't in the juice, you won't get that flavour in your cider. You really need to experiment and see.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Deep End (11/6/13)

Its bottled and conditioning at the moment, been three weeks or so. I was making some chicken in cider the other day and couldn't be stuffed going to the shed for a bottle so I grabbed one of these after two weeks in the bottle and chucked it in the fridge, made dinner and drank the rest. I was pleasantly surprised. It has a far superior flavour than any of my concentrate or bottle juice ciders could ever hope to have. Lots of tartness, tangyness, some bitterness and a definate, lingering sour apple flavour. Was also much lighter in colour. I imagine it will get better with some more age, its a pity there is only 4 bottles left now!


----------



## simchop84 (10/10/13)

Gday. Very under educated on this subject but I always thought one of the reasons for juicing your own apples was to let the natural yeast on the skin do its thing rather than adding yeast? Like I said very uneducated but very curious. 
Cheers


----------



## Airgead (10/10/13)

The whole yeast on skins thing is a bit of a myth. There is yeast there but its very hit and miss as to what you will get. For most traditionally fermented (ie: no yeast added) ciders and wines, most of the yeast isn't off the skins but from the building where it is being fermented. Most places that do this have been doing it for generations and over years a beneficial microflora builds up in the cidery/winery premises and contributes most of the yeast.

On a homebrew scale its really difficult to build up that miocroflora so its easier and more controllable to add yeast,

Most commercial ciders do that anyway for consistency.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## Greg.L (10/10/13)

It is unusual to find a wild yeast commercial cider in Australia. Winemakers are trained to reject any flavours that are mousy or brett, so they want a nice clean ferment, this attitude has carried over to the cider industry. In England and France wild ferments are much more common, as Dave says they build up a microflora so the wild ferment takes off quickly. There isn't any reason you can't do the same in Australia, saccharomyces yeasts are pretty ubiquitous in the air, it might just take a bit longer to get started. Most people like myself just prefer the reliability of a cultured yeast, but wild yeast people are adamant that it produces a better cider. (its also cheaper)


----------



## simchop84 (10/10/13)

Thank you gentlemen. You both sound like you know what you're talking about. I'll take your advice and yeast. Once I have juiced apples and probably pears apart from adding yeast is there any thing else I need to add that I wouldn't when using bottled shop juice? 
Thanks again


----------



## Deep End (5/11/13)

Not really, but there is a variety of things you could add; campden to the juice if it so takes your fancy, malic acid, grape tannin, lactose. All added for various reasons, but juice and yeast will make cider.


----------



## indica86 (6/11/13)

*Vintner's Harvest Yeast - CY17 8g (white) *is a yeast I used on my last, fermented well and still has a great apple taste.


----------



## lael (6/11/13)

indica86 said:


> *Vintner's Harvest Yeast - CY17 8g (white) *is a yeast I used on my last, fermented well and still has a great apple taste.


Sounds great! What was the fg?


----------



## indica86 (6/11/13)

1010 - stable over three days. Still had slight sweetness too.


----------

