# Leffe Blonde Clone - The Move To A Semi-decent Homebrew



## blakie21 (28/8/11)

Hi guys

New to this forum and home brew so I apologise if I have dumb questions for you guys.

I have made a couple of simple brews - one lager which came with my brewing gear (which turned out terrible) and an ale which turned out okay but boring. 
Not having used my gear for ages i decided to give it another crack and try to make a beer worth the trouble (using a branded yeast and not just dextrose).

I enjoy leffe blonde but being $100 a carton it can get pretty ridiculous, so I bought a book from my local homebrew shop called 'Brewing Crafts' and using the recipe and some help from the guys at the shop decided to take on the task of making a leffe blonde clone -

Muntons Premium Lager
Dried Light malt - 1kg 
Dextrose - 500g 
Finishing hops Saaz hop pellets - 25g
*Safale yeast*

With some help from the guy in the shop i gathered the ingredients and left. Without checking properly the yeast or anything (dumb i know). Once i checked i realised he had given me *Saflager yeast S-23.
*Figuring the guy knew what he was talking about i simply went with it and prepared the brew. 

After looking up various recipes for the leffe i realise that most people are using ale yeasts! So my question for you guys is, do you think it will turn out nice and like leffe? or crap/good but not like leffe (i realise it wont taste the same even if it is close). 

I have a very basic set up with no temperature control whatsoever (which i now realise is an important part after my first terrible tasting lager) but the weather is under 20 degrees at the moment and mostly below 18 degrees in the house. 
Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated from a newbie like me.


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## Aleosaurus cervisiae (28/8/11)

In my limited experience, these kits from Brewcraft are only vaguely similar to the style they are supposed to be like, and that is with a lot of imagination. Having said that, they are OK if you are not too fussy. If you already got it started, lager kit and Saaz hops might produce a nice, strong "Bohemian pilsner", but try to ferment it at no more than 12C. Seeing you haven't got the right gear, a simple way is to place the fermener into the laundry sink or large enough tub (old kids bath tub or similar), fill it up with water and ice (get a bag from the corner shop). That will drop the temp within a few hours. In the meantime, fill up some plastic bottles with water (not all the way to the top, of course) and place in the freezer overnight and use those to keep the temperature of the water in the laundry sink down. You need to rotate them, of course, and prey that the weather does not get much warmer. When the beer is fermented out, try to cold condition it as cold as you can get. There are a few useful threads on the forum regarding cold conditioning. Good luck.


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## felten (29/8/11)

A leffe clone needs a belgian yeast, and the only dried belgian style yeast is t-58.


How long has this batch been fermenting? If it's almost finished I probably wouldn't bother trying to chill it down, just chalk it up to experience and find a better LHBS. If you put your location in your profile I'm sure someone can help you out with that.


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## Nick JD (29/8/11)

Next time you do this, buy a pack of Wyeast 3787 or even 1214. 

It'll make all the difference. 

If you want to try your hand at a small Stovetop AG batch - I can give you a dead ringer recipe for Leffe Blonde. Tastes pretty much identical to the commerical.


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## 6tri6ple6 (29/8/11)

Welcome to the forum, Blakie.

+1 for using the liquid yeasts for brewing belgians. In my experience, the dried yeasts are ok, but not quite right. But with what you are currently doing, it wouldnt take too much more process to go to using extract with grains. It was my mainstay for years before i went to all-grain about 6 months ago. I was just never happy with the flavour of the beer kits. With this, the difference in the final product will be amazing. 


Hey Nick, which recipe do you use? I have an AG Belgian blonde in the fermenter at the moment. 

Cheers

Richard


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## blakie21 (29/8/11)

Thanks guys for the replies  

It has been fermenting for around 3 days now, so maybe I should leave it how it is? 
As Aleosaurus cervisaesaid I guess ill just bottle this one once its ready and hope that itll be a decent beer still.

I wouldnt mind giving AG a go I just thought it might be a bit of a leap for me being new to homebrew. I did find it fun doing a bit more than just dumping a kit and some sugar in though. 

Nick if you could give me the recipe and any tips on temperature etc that would be awesome. 
Will have to start looking up on AG brewing!


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## petesbrew (29/8/11)

Welcome aboard Blakie.

Good luck with the KnK Leffe Blonde Clone. 
I reckon the Coopers Canadian Blonde kit will be a good base kit. 
Hopewise I mostly use a combination of Goldings & Saaz in my AG beglians.

And definitely liquid yeasts will do wonders for your beer. I go for White Labs WLP500 Trappist.
Yeah they're $15ish, so are pricey compared to dried yeast, but There's information ithe articles on how to build them up into multiple stubbies, to save for future use.

If you come across a great recipe, be sure to post it!


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## chunckious (29/8/11)

Blakie said:


> Thanks guys for the replies
> 
> It has been fermenting for around 3 days now, so maybe I should leave it how it is?
> As Aleosaurus cervisaesaid I guess ill just bottle this one once its ready and hope that itll be a decent beer still.
> ...



G'Day Blakie,
I'm totally new to home brewing and just jumped all into Nick's stovetop method. The leap mighten be as big as you think.
While the method isn't the be all end all, it does let me cut my teeth on the basics, try out variety of sippers & cost stuff all to get into. As the experienced guys say.......if you make mistakes, mark it down as experience.


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## keifer33 (29/8/11)

Another unfortunate BrewCraft victim. I think for this brew you will end up with drinkabke lager but considering you have an interest in a unique style hard to replicate in kits and bits it might be worthwhile looking into some Ag brewing such as Nick's threads. Using liquid yeasts will also produce a beer much closer than the dried Belgian yeasts. Id take the advice you receive from Brewcraft with a grain of salt as its really just aimed at getting a result regardless if it is desirable or not.

You are better sourcing your ingredients from a few other lhbs south and east of perth or the site sponsors. It will save money and you will get better quality ingredients.


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## Nick JD (29/8/11)

Blakie said:


> Nick if you could give me the recipe and any tips on temperature etc that would be awesome.
> Will have to start looking up on AG brewing!



Belgian Blonde Ale (16L)

3kg Weyermann Pilsner 
300g Munich 2
150g Melanoidin
100g Caramunich I
400g Sucrose
10g Galena (or any bland hop) 60 min
8g EKG 15 min
Wyeast 3787 or 1214 @ 18-22C

Mashed at 65C for 60 minutes; sugar added at start of boil.


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## blakie21 (30/8/11)

Thanks Nick for the recipe. Will have to give it a crack when i start studying up on AG :icon_cheers: .

Took a hydro reading today after only 5 days and it is down to 1020 already :blink: . After using a more accurate thermometer I realised I was fermenting at around 18 degrees ambient temp and im assuming fermentation heats things up a bit, which worried me a little. I had to have a taste to see if it was fruity and undrinkable so far... to my surprise it tasted pretty decent! still sweet at the moment but wow its not bad at all! So hopefully it stays like that since I accidently touched the beer when taking a sample  .. Is it likely to get infected when mostly fermented and the yeast have set up?? 

I have a quick question for you guys though! I decided id fill my laundry sink up with water and put ice blocks in there now that it has almost finished fermenting since I have no fridge. Is it worth it since I cant really lager the beer? 

Cheers.


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## Nick JD (30/8/11)

Take samples out the tap.


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## blakie21 (31/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> Take samples out the tap.



That would be smart :/

I find myself making lots of dumb mistakes, think i just need to chill out and enjoy it . 

Can anyone let me know if im doing the right thing by chilling it down a bit to around 15 degrees C in the sink? (or should i go lower even?)
I have been trying to use search but find I am confusing myself alot. 

I need this brew to turn out semi-decent so I can feel better (and mostly prove to my gf) investing money in brewing was worth it and possibly convince myself to start looking for/buiilding a temperature controlled fridge


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## blakie21 (5/9/11)

Bottled this on saturday after 8 days in the primary. From what I have been reading this may have been too quick but I am now hooked and wanted it free for another brew! (2nd primary is on its way ^_^). Will let it carbonate for a week or two and have a taste. 

Will let anyone interested know how it goes since I used the 'wrong' yeast and will turn out differently to the intended recipe.


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## manticle (5/9/11)

I'm interested to know what made you bottle it after 8 days.

Did you measure the gravity at all or just choose an arbritary time frame?

Not trying to pick on a noob but bottling based solely on time is asking for a world of pain at worst and crap tasting beer at best.


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## blakie21 (5/9/11)

manticle said:


> I'm interested to know what made you bottle it after 8 days.
> 
> Did you measure the gravity at all or just choose an arbritary time frame?
> 
> Not trying to pick on a noob but bottling based solely on time is asking for a world of pain at worst and crap tasting beer at best.




Forgot to mention! After around 5 days i checked gravity and it came out to ~1.020-1.018 (cant remember) then day 6 it was 1.012 and the same on days 7 and 8. So from what ive read up on bottle bombs and such that was fine to bottle?? I realise more time can be better in the primary. I also couldnt help and do a taste test and it didnt have the sweetness it had on day 5. 

I think maybe because i fermented at around 18 degrees it was a quick fermentation (which I only realised half way through with a proper thermometer and decided to water bath it to ~15 degrees). 

Thats a fair call to point it out because my first brew I did not take a hydro reading or temperature control it at all, leading to an undrinkable beer (luckily no bottle bombs) and putting me off homebrew until now. So I wish someone had pointed it out to me then


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## mfeighan (5/9/11)

Correct me if i am wrong but you dont really have a choice of decent home brew shops in perth's northern suburbs, and its a pain to drive to bibra lake/ bayswater every time.


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## blakie21 (5/9/11)

Unfortunately not  - Brewcraft is it for me for the moment.. 
I see you are in Kingsley so must have the same issue?

Although the bibra lake shop (not sure if we can mention?) posts for quite cheap (8 bucks for most things!) So might give them a shot next time I buy.


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## keifer33 (5/9/11)

Mikey said:


> Correct me if i am wrong but you dont really have a choice of decent home brew shops in perth's northern suburbs, and its a pain to drive to bibra lake/ bayswater every time.



Yeah only 2 Brewcraft shops I think. I'm out near the hills and have very limited choice so this has made me try and be self sufficient and have more on hand than I need. Just part of the hobby really.


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## mfeighan (5/9/11)

yeah i used to frequent beer tech, the guys there were real good but they have closed down. You can try your luck (depends who is actually working there that day) at brews r us in canham way. I moved to all grain so i kind of have to do a long drive without to not get shafted.


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## blakie21 (5/9/11)

keifer33 said:


> Yeah only 2 Brewcraft shops I think. I'm out near the hills and have very limited choice so this has made me try and be self sufficient and have more on hand than I need. Just part of the hobby really.




Must have it worse than us then! At least if you buy lots at once you are *forced* to use it while its still fresh, what a shame! more beer :icon_cheers: .

Might give the bibra lake a shot and just get it posted, would probably cost me 8 bucks in petrol there and back anyway . Have you guys used that shop before?


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## mfeighan (5/9/11)

Blakie said:


> Must have it worse than us then! At least if you buy lots at once you are *forced* to use it while its still fresh, what a shame! more beer :icon_cheers: .
> 
> Might give the bibra lake a shot and just get it posted, would probably cost me 8 bucks in petrol there and back anyway  . Have you guys used that shop before?



yeah TWOC is good, worth the drive, except its like a trip to bunnings i leave with more than i planned to. I guess the best thing is its open sundays


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## blakie21 (5/9/11)

Mikey said:


> yeah TWOC is good, worth the drive, except its like a trip to bunnings i leave with more than i planned to. I guess the best thing is its open sundays




Oh awesome - sundays is always good since i work saturdays! Cheers for the advice.


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## blakie21 (6/9/11)

Being impatient i cracked one of these just now.. 
Undercarbonated to be expected for 4 days  but amazed that its almost completely clear!

Pretty impressed! Tastes very crisp and clean but a little yeasty still. Cant wait until it ages a little!

NOTHING like a leffe, as discussed earlier - wrong yeast. It is just a crisp clean lager which seems to be decent even when fermented at around 18 degrees.


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## yum beer (6/9/11)

go blakie,


looking at your recipe I would imagine you will get yourself a decent brew, in 8 to 12 weeks....it may be earlier and
I get that you are keen to get into it. Thats fine just leave some bottles to age so you can try them further down the track and taste the difference.
It really is worth the wait with kit beers. :icon_cheers:


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## CONNOR BREWARE (7/9/11)

Blakie said:


> Being impatient i cracked one of these just now..
> Undercarbonated to be expected for 4 days  but amazed that its almost completely clear!
> 
> Pretty impressed! Tastes very crisp and clean but a little yeasty still. Cant wait until it ages a little!
> ...


Nice work Blackie, welcome to Ahb.
TWOC is great but if doing k&k bayswater may do you. Welshpool is a grumpy bugger but sometimes has some pro culture liquid yeasts in.

Good luck


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## mfeighan (7/9/11)

they still have pro culture? god ur right about the grumpy bugger @ welshpool


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## enuun (7/9/11)

hey blakie,

I am sure you will enjoy your brew. Do not be afraid to try new stuff. I always have a carton or 2 of leffe brune or blonde around as I am a big belgian fan. Although your recipe is too far and wide to be near the profile, I am sure your brew will come out good. Keep on brewing.

PS: If I do not make sense its cos I am on my 4th fullers IPA after chugging a lot of imperial stout from my new keg set-up


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## blakie21 (7/9/11)

Thanks for the words of encouragement guys  (I am also a big belgian fan!)

Very into it now and have started my hoegaarden Kit clone already for some quick drinking goodness (hopefully) So i can let the lager age a bit more since from what you guys say and I have read, lagers tend to need more aging.

Also have a cider and a JAO on the go haha so you could say ive taken a bit of a leap into things! 

Now that I have a second Primary I am planning to make a Leffe Blonde clone with;

Muntons Blonde kit
1kg DLME 
500g Dextrose
15-25g Saaz (Also have some Hallertau if this would be good?)
Wyeast 3787 (eagerly awaiting in the fridge :lol: )

Hoping ill get some of those delicious belgian flavours that I missed out on with this yeast! Any suggestions for changing/adding some basic stuff for a better brew would be appreciated. Otherwise ill give it a crack and let you guys know how it goes for me! 

One thing I am not sure about is whether 500g dextrose will give me the 6+% that Leffe blondes have.


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## Nick JD (7/9/11)

Blakie said:


> One thing I am not sure about is whether 500g dextrose will give me the 6+% that Leffe blondes have.



Aim for 1.065 OG.


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## petesbrew (7/9/11)

As the recipe is exactly the same as your first, this is going to be a good one for you to taste the differences between the yeasts.
All the best Blakie


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## blakie21 (7/9/11)

Nick JD said:


> Aim for 1.065 OG.



How do you guys work out the expected OG with the kits?? Sorry if its a noob question. 
I have the brewmate program which would help me estimate with all extracts but the kits dont say what proportions they have in them.


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## MaltyHops (7/9/11)

You need ianh's spreadsheet tool for kit brewing - see _here_.

... and also MS Excel as well tho.

T.


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## drtomc (7/9/11)

G'day Blakie,
Just to add my 2c...
For about 2 years my house brew was a tin of wheat kit with dry malt and dex fermented with T-58. I liked it and a couple of mates urged me to give up my day job. 
Ultimately I switched to AG to brew Belgian styles better. Saison, dubbel, tripel. Love them all, and attenuation (fermentability) along with the right yeast is essential to good results. As others have said, switching to AG needn't be expensive, but it might be worth sorting temperature control first, sine you'll need that sorted whether you're doing kits, partials, or AG. 

Good luck!
T


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## blakie21 (12/9/11)

Cheers for the spreadsheet link! Extremely helpful for my second attempt  .

For this one i went for 

Muntons Blonde kit
1kg Dried Light Malt extract
1kg Dried Amber Malt extract
300g Dextrose
15 g Saaz
Wyeast 3787 

Seems to tick all the boxes in the spreadsheet  Hits a nice OG of 1.066 too. I wonder why brewcraft recipes estimate such a high alcohol percentage when they clearly dont get 6.6% out of 1kg LME and 500g dextrose according to the spreadsheet. Or maybe I shouldn't wonder from what I have been hearing about brewcraft haha
What do you guys think of this recipe?

Will let you guys know how it goes anyway.


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## blakie21 (5/10/11)

Just an update on this recipe i posted last.

Bottled this last week and tried yesterday. For a young beer this really does taste amazing. 
Different to the original (more banana) I am assuming because of the highish fermentation temperatures (up to 22 degrees) but I really do not mind it at all as its not overpowering. 

Now completely sold on liquid yeast!

Does anyone know how long to mature a beer like this? I enjoy it now but am not sure if being an estery beer it will be like a wheat where it is good to drink young or better aged?


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## manticle (5/10/11)

My experience of my more successful belgians (some great, some ordinary, some horrible) is that age helps, whether pale/blonde/tripel or brown/dark/dubbel.

Drinking a low alc Belgian pale right now that improves each week I try it (one of my more successful attempts.)

Good lagering time is essential in my experience.


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## blakie21 (5/10/11)

manticle said:


> My experience of my more successful belgians (some great, some ordinary, some horrible) is that age helps, whether pale/blonde/tripel or brown/dark/dubbel.
> 
> Drinking a low alc Belgian pale right now that improves each week I try it (one of my more successful attempts.)
> 
> Good lagering time is essential in my experience.



So hopefully it will taste even better soon . I am already happy with it so i can't wait. Cheers for the feedback, still quite new to brewing. 

When you say lagering time is essential do you mean it is better to age them chilled? I have already bottled so I have been leaving them at room temperature. Would you suggest putting as many in the fridge as possible?

It is unbelievable how much a semi decent beer can change in a couple of weeks! my lager which I made due to being given the wrong yeast tastes so much better 3-4 weeks after bottling.


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## manticle (5/10/11)

By lagering, I mean ageing/maturing cold in bulk, so prior to bottling.

However if already bottled AND carbonated to the level you want them, you will get a similar effect by fridging them. Wait until carbonated before fridging though if they are not already.

When lagering in bulk, you then rack to bottles or kegs and leave behind a lot of the crap that drops during the process. If you bottle, then lager you take that crap with you to the bottles. If pouring carefully etc you will still leave a lot of it behind so don't sweat.

I find bulk maturation is better in general.


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## blakie21 (5/10/11)

manticle said:


> By lagering, I mean ageing/maturing cold in bulk, so prior to bottling.
> 
> However if already bottled AND carbonated to the level you want them, you will get a similar effect by fridging them. Wait until carbonated before fridging though if they are not already.
> 
> ...




Ahh okay I figured you might have meant chilling it in a secondary. Unfortunately I have no spare fridge for bulk lagering yet so I am stuck with bottling or leaving in primary at room temp. I left this one for a good 2 and a half weeks in the primary. 

Good to know I can improve the brews though when I get some more brewing gear. 

Ill have to do a little experiment putting some in the fridge and some maturing at room temperature (as I can't fit all in the fridge anyway, unfortunately food is more important haha)

Cheers for the advice.


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## thedragon (5/10/11)

Manticle, prior to lagering do I need to rack to a secondary fermenter, or do I just shove the primary in to the fridge when fermentation is finished?



manticle said:


> By lagering, I mean ageing/maturing cold in bulk, so prior to bottling.
> 
> However if already bottled AND carbonated to the level you want them, you will get a similar effect by fridging them. Wait until carbonated before fridging though if they are not already.
> 
> ...


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## manticle (5/10/11)

You can do either.

I used to rack.

Now I just put primary in the fridge.

Racking will help leave sediment behind but if you rack to bulk prime you will accomplish this and I assume if you rack to a keg, you will also accomplish this.

My vote for primary in fridge, based on recent experience.


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## thedragon (5/10/11)

Thanks Manticle. I've only ever racked once, however the (K&K) beer ended up tasting funny, presumably because I introduced infection during the transfer. I'll go with you and just pop the primary in the fridge. Cheers!



manticle said:


> You can do either.
> 
> I used to rack.
> 
> ...


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## blakie21 (11/10/11)

Stoked with how this one turned out. 

Going to have to force myself not to drink them too young  .

So smooth for a 7.3% beer.. too drinkable.. haha. Doesn't taste hot at all.


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