# Saison Recipe Thoughts



## warrenlw63 (27/11/05)

Good Sunday all;

About to attempt my first foray into a Saison. Yeast is ready to roll. Just like the folks who've already made one to lend their comments. Also like some thoughts on the yeast. Sounds like it needs to be fermented warm. The Bourghul(sp?) is in lieu of spelt which I was unable to find.  

Destroy recipe at will. I got some ideas from the Farmhouse Ales book and I'm inspired. :beerbang: 

The name is in reference to hoping like buggery that it's ready for New Year's Eve.  

TIA.

Warren -

Saison du Auld Lang Sine

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

16-C Belgian & French Ale, Saison

Min OG: 1.048 Max OG: 1.080
Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 45
Min Clr: 12 Max Clr: 31 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 40.00 Wort Size (L): 40.00
Total Grain (kg): 9.05
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.23
Anticipated EBC: 22.1
Anticipated IBU: 30.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 47.06 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.046 SG 11.32 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
22.1 2.00 kg. Bourghul (Cracked Wheat) Australia 1.034 4
55.2 5.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
0.6 0.05 kg. Weyermann Caraaroma Germany 1.034 470
16.6 1.50 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 8
5.5 0.50 kg. Candi Sugar (amber) Generic 1.046 198

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 10.9 60 min.
20.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 1.9 15 min.
50.00 g. Saaz Pellet 4.00 16.2 60 min.
30.00 g. Saaz Pellet 4.00 1.6 5 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 gm Corriander Seed Spice 5 Min.(boil) 
0.50 Tsp Star Anise Spice 0 Days(boil) 
0.50 Tsp Allspice (Pimento) Other 0 Days(boil) 


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison


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## Ray_Mills (27/11/05)

Warren
It looks good, only I would boost the SG up a little, but thats me I like big beers in this style. I remember when I first developed this recipe there were not many around to look at. I must say the beer I made was one of my best and a lot of brewers will agree. It one the NSW and The Nationals, heres mine, its posted on the Craftbrewers site.


Category: 12. BELGIAN and FRENCH ALE 
Style: Saison Ale 
Recipe Name: Saison Ale # 1 2004 
Brewer's Name: Ray Mills 
Brewing Method: Mash 
Starting Gravity: 1.073 
Ending Gravity: 1.012 
Alcohol (w/w%): 8.2 
Bitterness (IBU): 40 
Colour (SRM): 10.7 
Specification Comments: Not the type of beer you would take to a BBQ
First go at this style and I am impressed with the results. Very smooth well balance beer with a hint of spices. 
Size of Batch: 20 
Batch Size Unit: Liters 
Extract Efficiency: 65% 
Fermentables: 4.30kg Australian Traditional Ale (JWM)
1.00kg Munich Malt light (JWM)
0.30kg Carahell (Weyermann)
0.15kg CaraArome (Weyermann)
0.25kg Wheat Malt Light (Weyermann)
0.50kg Cane Sugar


Hop Additions: 30g East Kent Goldings 6.1% AA 60 minutes
20g East Kent Goldings 6.1% AA 30 minutes
15g East Kent Goldings 6.1% AA 15 minutes
20g Czech Saaz 4.0% AA 0 minutes 
Wort Preparation: Single infusion mash at 68C for 90 minutes
Flood sparge at 77C for 45 minutes 
Boiling and Cooling: 90 minute boil
Add sugar in the last 15 minutes 
Other Additions: 10.0g Bitter Oange peel
10.0g Gorriander seeds 
10.0g Cardamon seed
all seeds should be ground
all added at last 15 minutes of boil 
Yeast Information: White Labs WLP565 Belgian Saison(fresh tube) 
Fermentation Details: Fermented at 20C for 14 days
Racked to glass secondary for 3 days at 20C
Lagered at 2C for 14 days 
Other Brewing Information: Bottled so beer can mature 
Competition Results: State and National

Cheers
Ray


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## Doc (27/11/05)

Hey Warren,

I keep the grain bill quite simple in mine. Typically Pils, Light Munich and Wheat.
Also quite low on the hop front to let the spices and yeast flavours come through. 
My most recent one I used Stirling @ 60 mins only.
Then all the spices at 15 mins. Orange Peel, Corriander and Grains of Paradise.
Haven't used Star Anise or Pimento so can't comment there.

I think the Wyeast strain you are using is the same as the White Labs 565. If so get a big starter and be patient. It takes a bit longer to do the job.

Hope that helps.

Beers,
Doc


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## bindi (27/11/05)

I got some ideas from the Farmhouse Ales book and I'm inspired

Like Warren I am also inspired after read this book, so keep it coming, I love this


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## mje1980 (27/11/05)

I can vouch for ray's saison brewing ability. I tasted one of his ( may've been the award winning one ) at an ibu meeting and it was delicious!!


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## warrenlw63 (28/11/05)

Thanks Ray, Doc and others. 

Yep, the decision was to keep the grainbill as simple as possible. Reading Farmhouse Ales most of the major Saisons produced (except for U.S. versions) more or less adhered to simplistic grainbills. Some are just 100% pils malt.

Ray the idea of a higher gravity version is appealing, however this one is an attempt to go "grain to brain" in about 4 weeks so I can tap the keg New Year's Eve (fingers crossed h34r: ).

The big leap of faith for me is to ferment the bloody thing in the mid 20s. According to data some provincial Belgian brewers let their Saisons even get up to the early 30s  . I have noticed with the yeast strain that it seems to be very sluggish in the low 20s. A warm spell here the other day had it going quite actively at 25c. I think that's what I'll try and aim for. :beerbang: 

Read Farmhouse Ales and be enlightened. :super: 

Warren -


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## neonmeate (28/11/05)

i made 4 saisons with WLP565 last summer and each of em fermented at around 28-30. came out very clean, super high attenuation, no hot alcohol at all.

i reckon your recipe looks great! although i'd be more inclined to use allspice in a sweet/dark belgian beer rather than a saison. but im sure itll be good. looks like youll end up with an amber, round, caramelly version of the style rather than a dry, zingy dupont sort of version, which is fine.

maybe if i were you id cut back on either the spices or the flavour hops, as a warm ferment with 565 will add heaps of spicy, earthy flavours of its own.

wouldnt flaked wheat make your life easier mashingwise rather than bourgal?


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## warrenlw63 (28/11/05)

Ta and thanks for the tips NM.

I had initial misgivings re; the allspice. However half a teaspoon shouldn't really bother it too much. :beerbang: 

Bourghul or Bulgar should be OK in the mash. It's very finely ground pre-cooked, de-husked wheat. At $1.50 a kg it's less than half the price and twice as easy to find as flaked wheat these days. At 20% of the mash and with local Pils Malt (JW) shouldn't present any real problems converting. (I hope) :lol: 

You're right, I may roll back the flavour hops somewhat. Particularly in an attempt to tap this beer early. :unsure: 

Warren -


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## warrenlw63 (28/11/05)

Bit of a rethink.

Here's the amended (and I hope improved) version. :lol: :beerbang: 

Warren -
Saison du Auld Lang Sine

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

16-C Belgian & French Ale, Saison

Min OG: 1.048 Max OG: 1.080
Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 45
Min Clr: 12 Max Clr: 31 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 40.00 Wort Size (L): 40.00
Total Grain (kg): 9.20
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.44
Anticipated EBC: 10.9
Anticipated IBU: 29.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 47.06 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.046 SG 11.50 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
21.7 2.00 kg. Bourghul Australia 1.034 4
54.3 5.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
16.3 1.50 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 8
5.4 0.50 kg. Candi Sugar (clear) Generic 1.046 0
2.2 0.20 kg. Weyermann Caraamber Germany 1.037 93

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 10.9 60 min.
15.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 1.4 15 min.
50.00 g. Saaz Pellet 4.00 16.1 60 min.
20.00 g. Saaz Pellet 4.00 1.1 5 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 gm Corriander Seed Spice 5 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison


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## neonmeate (28/11/05)

looks tasty warren.

thanks for telling me about bourgal. i bought some ages ago to use in a wit but thought that it had to be cooked up so used flaked wheat instead.
saison sounds like a much better use for the stuff than tabouleh.


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## warrenlw63 (18/1/06)

Just to re-open the thread, here's the finished product.

Come up very nice indeed. :beer: More complexity than I've ever enountered in any of my beers.

Colour is spot on for the style (little lighter than the pic). It's a nice orange/amber colour.

Only thing I'd probably change if I were to do this recipe again would be to cut right down on the CaraAmber (200g in 40 litres).

This is really a style within a style and really open to variation. I'd recommend Farmhouse Ales to anybody keen on trying it.

Next batch I make I'm going to try 100% Weyermann Pils and nothing else. I will try extending the boil to produce a colour increase. I may even up the bitterness slightly. Mine's 30 IBU.

What I'd really like to gain is the amber/orange colour without the slightly excessive caramel sweetness. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## Malnourished (18/1/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> What I'd really like to gain is the amber/orange colour without the slightly excessive caramel sweetness. :beerbang:


Great-looking beer! Love that yeast too - I've got a couple going with it at the moment and a couple more to come. I just wish the weather would heat up though!
I'm a bit curious as to why you want an amber/orange colour though - is it just an aesthetic thing?


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## neonmeate (18/1/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> What I'd really like to gain is the amber/orange colour without the slightly excessive caramel sweetness. :beerbang:
> 
> Warren -
> [post="103262"][/post]​




looks tasty warren. 
what was the final gravity? i found that yeast would chew through any amount of dextrins. i did a supersaison OG 1090 with maris otter, 500g carahell and mashing at 69 and it still got down below 1010. super dry. 
im beginning to think the whitelabs version of the dupont strain is slightly different to the wyeast?


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## Goat (18/1/06)

Warren - what fermentation temps and times did you use for that one?


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## warrenlw63 (18/1/06)

Malnourished.

Amber/Orange is sort of expected to be the traditional colour. That said there's certainly variation from brewer to brewer.

NM.

Didn't bother taking a FG. I'm a bit carless that way. :lol: Certainly appears to be very much on the dryish side. That said not lacking for flavours either. Seems to have a very layered complexity.

Goat.

I pitched it at 18c. I let the fermentation rise up to between 25-30c after high krausen started (24 hours). Anywhere below 25c and the yeast seems to go to sleep. It's been said that it can even stall completely. After the first few days when the krausen started dropping I just put it into my fermentation box with a 100w light bulb for heat. I hooked this up to my HLT thermostat.

Primary fermentation took 3 weeks. It will go slowly for a while even at elevated temps. Takes forever to clear also. I wound up kegging it still slightly cloudy.

Warren -


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## Malnourished (18/1/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> Amber/Orange is sort of expected to be the traditional colour. That said there's certainly variation from brewer to brewer.


This is one area where I really don't get the style guidelines - they always say that's the colour it should be but all the best commercials saisons seem to be gold or paler.



warrenlw63 said:


> kegging


Blasphemy!  
Actually my experience with this yeast is that it stays cloudy as cloudy until the minute it gets in the bottle, then BAM, dead clear in two days.


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## bindi (18/1/06)

Like this? Cloudy out of the keg, but pure neck oil  The colour is a little lighter then the photo <_< on my 2nd glass and loving it, had this one in cc before Xmas and almost forgot about it [yeah right?]


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## warrenlw63 (18/1/06)

Malnourished said:


> This is one area where I really don't get the style guidelines - they always say that's the colour it should be but all the best commercials saisons seem to be gold or paler.
> [post="103279"][/post]​



Saison Dupont.

More or less considered the benchmark of the style... Looks orange/amber from where I'm drooling.  :blink: 

Warren -


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## warrenlw63 (18/1/06)

Looks good Bindi!  

Warren -


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## Gough (18/1/06)

Hey Warren... Is that one of those magic bottles mate? It's still full even after they've poured the beer...

Yours looks and sounds like a top beer, well done. As you know I'm planning on breaking my Saison 'duck' with that very recipe in the not too distant future... Hope it comes out as well as yours.  

Shawn.


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## Darren (18/1/06)

Warren,
Will take a long boil of pils to get that colour.

cheers
Darren


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## AndrewQLD (18/1/06)

Warren if you start your burner when the first runnings enter your boiler and keep it on for the rest of the sparge you will get some nice colour addition and some good melanoidal (spelling) flavours as well, its a good way to add complexity to a one malt brew by scorching the first runnings so to speak.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Darren (18/1/06)

In my experience it takes a good two hour boil though. Singing (sp) the first running ain't going to cut it (not with something as light as weyermann pils anyhow)

cheers
Darren


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## warrenlw63 (18/1/06)

Darren

Dupont is supposed to be 100% pils malt believe it or not. IIRC they achieve the colour of the beer by an extended period of boiling. Perhaps the boilers are copper?

OTOH Saison de Pipaix is an orange colour but the explanation is simple. 40% Of the malt bill is Vienna.

Andrew your idea sounds valid. Boiling the guts out of the first runnings would have to achieve some darkening for sure. Wouldn't it caramelize the flavour a bit as well though?

Shawn... I scanned the beer pic from Michael Jackson's "Great Beer Guide". Oddly enough after having owned this book for the last 4 years you've brought it to my attention that the glasses are full and so are the bottles. Hate to admit it but I've actually never realised it up until this point. :lol: Talk about continuity fault. :blink: Don't worry though I've had my eye out for the magic bottle that stays full.  

Warren -


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## warrenlw63 (18/1/06)

Oh, and I forgot to add... Another way around the colour issues would be adding some amber or dark candi sugar to the boil. My recipe utilized 4% dextrose. Maybe I could dump the CaraAmber and subtitute it for the candi. The caramel effect would have to be less this way. :unsure: 

Warren -


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## Malnourished (19/1/06)

warrenlw63 said:


> Saison Dupont.
> 
> More or less considered the benchmark of the style... Looks orange/amber from where I'm drooling.  :blink:


Look I can't really argue with photographic evidence (well I shouldn't, but I'm going to anyway  ) but every Saison Dupont I've had seemed a lot paler than that. More like a gold colour. If I hadn't drank my last bottle of it last weekend I'd crack one open and check for sure. 

Could it be the yeast creating an optical illusion, or have they changed kettles in the last ten years?

Yeah probably not, I know... :lol:


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