# Sodium Percarbonate



## geoffd (1/4/12)

I've just made up a litre of SP to clean out a lightly soiled 5 litre glass demijohn.

1. Can i bottle & store this cleaner for future uses & if so, how can I tell how long it will remain effective?
2. Are ther any issues with disposal untreated down the drain?
3. Does hot or cold water matter?


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## hoppy2B (1/4/12)

Sodium is just sodium and the ocean is full of it so there shouldn't be a problem as far as I'm aware and perc is that stuff they use to dye hair and bleach bread flour isn't it? :huh: 
Don't quote me on that though. :lol:


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## kelbygreen (1/4/12)

Well I think it should be good for a few weeks. I leave mine in the fermenter and then usually tip that fermenter into another one after about a week and it still cleans well. 

I dont think there is a issue as they use it in washing mashings, If you have a septic tank or any system like that then I would ask some one if its ok to use as them systems rely on bugs to brack stuff down and if you feed them some stuff it will kill them off.

When you mix it use hot water to disolve the grains once its disolved I dont think it matters, as said I tip it into another fermenter and it still cleans, Also I only put about 1-2lts of hot water in the fermenter to disolve it then top it up with cold tap water


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## MHB (1/4/12)

Sodium Percarbonate disassociates (breaks up) into Peroxide and Sodium Carbonate, the Peroxide breaks up into Water and Oxygen, the free Oxygen is the steriliser, the Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) is the cleaner.
You need to use very hot water to get optimum disassociation, if you store it the sterilising part (oxygen) will pretty quickly evaporate out, so it will still clean but not sterilise.
Actually its beneficial to the sewerage system, the Sodium Carbonate breaks up fat and oil (literally saponifies them, makes them into soap) which is a lot easier to biodegrade, its OK for septic tanks to.
My first choice cleaner/steriliser, effective and very environmentally friendly with the bonus that its good value for money.
Mark


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## geoffd (1/4/12)

MHB said:


> Sodium Percarbonate "disassociates" (breaks up) into Peroxide and Sodium Carbonate, the Peroxide breaks up into Water and Oxygen, the free Oxygen is the steriliser, the Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) is the cleaner.
> You need to use very hot water to get optimum disassociation, if you store it the sterilising part (oxygen) will pretty quickly evaporate out, so it will still clean but not sterilise.
> Actually it's beneficial to the sewerage system, the Sodium Carbonate breaks up fat and oil (literally saponifies them, makes them into soap) which is a lot easier to biodegrade, it's OK for septic tanks to.
> My first choice cleaner/steriliser, effective and very environmentally friendly with the bonus that its good value for money.
> Mark




Thank all, excellent responses, I normally use Defender (acid - no rise sterilant) only used this as I couldnt get the bottle brush to touch all the surfaces of the demijohn. very effective stuff, & great to hear of safe disposal. will use it on kegs if I ever can bring myself to using them (just cant think of a beer I make that doesnt benefit from bottle conditioning) I think I'm now a self confessed bottle addict.
I didnt realise it is also a sterilant, does it require a rinse with boiled water or is it good if drip dried?


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## booargy (1/4/12)

MHB said:


> Sodium Percarbonate disassociates (breaks up) into Peroxide and Sodium Carbonate, the Peroxide breaks up into Water and Oxygen, the free Oxygen is the steriliser, the Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) is the cleaner.
> You need to use very hot water to get optimum disassociation, if you store it the sterilising part (oxygen) will pretty quickly evaporate out, so it will still clean but not sterilise.
> Actually its beneficial to the sewerage system, the Sodium Carbonate breaks up fat and oil (literally saponifies them, makes them into soap) which is a lot easier to biodegrade, its OK for septic tanks to.
> My first choice cleaner/steriliser, effective and very environmentally friendly with the bonus that its good value for money.
> Mark



So does the mean that when I pump boiling SP solution through my brewery it is sterilising it as well? What is ideal ratio/temp?


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## kelbygreen (1/4/12)

I would not rely on it to sterilise things. I know it can but you have to rinse it really well and the cost of starsan will pay its self off in 1 lost batch and last you years.


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## Feldon (1/4/12)

What are you actually using? I think you have to differentiate between pure sodium percabonate (such as that which Coopers sell as a "steriliser") and Napisan (and similar products, eg the Aldi version) which also contain fillers and other additives.


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## MHB (1/4/12)

Yes its a cleaner/steriliser, there are lots of different recommended dose rates and ways to use Perk Palmer likes it, and there are lots of other references and everyone appears to have an opinion on the right dose, I recommend about 10g/L in hot (the hotter the better) water.
A bit in the blind filter gets all the muck out of the espresso machine; it gets used to mop the floor as well as clean the Braumeister, fermenters, bottles and kegs, I even use it in the dishwasher to clean beer glasses.
I would rinse, I am the original No-Rinse Sceptic, the only products I treat as no-rinse are the Shield type peroxide /silver complexes.
And by good value for money I mean, you can buy Food Equipment Contact grade 100% pure cheaper by the Kg than Woollies home brand Nappy Cleaner and thats only 36% Sodium Percarbonate balance filler so for a third of the price.
OK I like Perk; sorry if Im sounding a bit evangelical but its the best cleaner I have ever used.
Mark


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## SJW (1/4/12)

60 deg C is about the activation temp of Sodium Percarbonate. Try it. In water under about 50 deg C it just sits on the bottom of whatever its in . Raise the temp to 60 deg C or more and it will start to do its thing, and give of loads of o2 and gets all slimy


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## humulus (1/4/12)

SJW said:


> 60 deg C is about the activation temp of Sodium Percarbonate. Try it. In water under about 50 deg C it just sits on the bottom of whatever its in . Raise the temp to 60 deg C or more and it will start to do its thing, and give of loads of o2 and gets all slimy


 My braumeister and a few kegs are fizzing away with sodium perc a really good cleaner!! works out a lot cheaper to use 100% sodium perc!


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## manticle (1/4/12)

I use it with boiling water Geoff and the cleaning power is amazing. A scungy cube with a couple of litres boiling water, sealed and shaken vigorously comes up as good as new in minutes or less. I'm currently using the pure stuff which requires less rinsing than napisan etc (I'm guessing it's the surfactants etc that leave the slime with napisan and related products).

The bonus of the boiling water, besides activating the peroxide, is that it also has sanitising properties. I do rinse with clean water and starsan everything but the sodium percarbonate gives me extra confidence (like libra fleur for brewing) and the cleaning power is superb.

I just make it up fresh each time I need it though although I will reuse the solution for anything that I'm going to soak. My plants (veges/herbs) have been happy with multiple doses over the years (although your chilli plant didn't make it, I'm sorry to say).


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## Yob (1/4/12)

manticle said:


> I use it with boiling water



with abandon :beerbang: fair blows out a concave cube too :lol: 

shit rocks


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## DU99 (1/4/12)

Recommend also.. :super: best stuff i have used


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## SJW (1/4/12)

manticle said:


> I use it with boiling water Geoff and the cleaning power is amazing. A scungy cube with a couple of litres boiling water, sealed and shaken vigorously comes up as good as new in minutes or less. I'm currently using the pure stuff which requires less rinsing than napisan etc (I'm guessing it's the surfactants etc that leave the slime with napisan and related products).


Yep, Napi San and the like is shite, well about 88% shite anyway. With only about 12% SP the rest is just filler. Everything from soap to saw dust. Must use the 100% SP, you just need too much Napi San to get the job done a,d I would not like to rely on on it for using with a fermenter.

Steve


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## BlackRat (1/4/12)

where is the best place to buy Perk?


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## geoffd (1/4/12)

Defender is the same type sterilant as Starsan, both acid washes

I agree I used 7g in 1 litre of boiling water, shook it around & forgot about it for a while (the dried yeast residue was not submerged) came back an hour later & shook & to my surprise all the residue was already gone, I looked pretty hard as I thought I was imagining things, well impressed with it's cleaning power.

It was a 1kg bag from Greensborough HB, (Nice bloke); the owner. said 60% SP, it didnt say what the other 40% was, looks the same as Napisan.


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## Yob (1/4/12)

you just missed a bulk buy.. they come up every so often..

keep an eye on the bulk buy section, things in there dont come up on the latest threads list so are easy to miss..

last BB was HERE

prices depend on the amount purchased but happy to provide you with contact information.. 

Yob


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## geoffd (1/4/12)

manticle said:


> My plants (veges/herbs) have been happy with multiple doses over the years (although your chilli plant didn't make it, I'm sorry to say).




How the hell did you manage to kill that thing, I've never seen such a vigorous growing plant, I harvested two full shopping bags off it in the same season before I gave it to you. It was in a box 80x50x40 & kept it pruned to 100h x80x50 (the size of the box)

if you kept any seeds, note 1st season, mild as a capsicum, second season, my neighbour & I washed down a whole load of Belg Tripel to try & numb the taste buds.




Black Rat. I'd expect most HB suppliers would have it, if you have to come to Melb for it, check Grain&Grape website, there is also a brew shop in Peel St/Victoria St, above the Vic Market, if you're looking for a place close to the train station. (ring first to check for stock)


Always a good excuse if you wanted to get to one of G&G's brew demos they do most Saturdays.


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## manticle (1/4/12)

I planted it in the same spot as the capsicums and the leaves look the same so it's possible it will regrow and just got stressed with the transplant. No idea what else could have happend - maybe it hates Public transport as much as I do?

I did recently eat what I thought was a green banana capsicum which had some heat in it so maybe it's ressurected itself but all other capsicums since then have been just that.

Mildly confused I am.


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## hoppy2B (1/4/12)

I have 8 Halapeno chilli growing in the hop yard. Came in a punnet from Bunnings back in September and are starting to produce very well at the moment. Hot as all fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffire!


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## Bribie G (2/4/12)

I've got a fairly large and vigorous passionfruit vine coming on but WTF does that have to do with Sod Perc?

I love perc, got half a sack in a BB a while ago. It's particularly good for zapping things like stained tea towels and my Volleys. I pinched the small 1/4 cup plastic measure from the kitchen drawer and use one of those per bucket of water, or one in a fermenter to clean overnight.

Perc is a solid "version" of hydrogen peroxide except that the substrate is Sodium Carbonate as opposed to water. I used to treat my infected ingrowing toenails with hydrogen peroxide and the stuff would foam up mightily. Doc told me that every oxygen bubble represented a bug being zapped.


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## freezkat (2/4/12)

Bribie G said:


> I've got a fairly large and vigorous passionfruit vine coming on but WTF does that have to do with Sod Perc?
> 
> I love perc, got half a sack in a BB a while ago. It's particularly good for zapping things like stained tea towels and my Volleys. I pinched the small 1/4 cup plastic measure from the kitchen drawer and use one of those per bucket of water, or one in a fermenter to clean overnight.
> 
> Perc is a solid "version" of hydrogen peroxide except that the substrate is Sodium Carbonate as opposed to water. I used to treat my infected ingrowing toenails with hydrogen peroxide and the stuff would foam up mightily. Doc told me that every oxygen bubble represented a bug being zapped.



A solution of sodium percarbonate and water will contain hydrogen peroxide temporarily. It will degrade into water oxygen and soda ash.


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## argon (2/4/12)

I just ran pure sodium perc through all my brewery over the weekend. There were bits of gunk in the hoses at the QD connections and I didnt trust the plate chiller any more. Filled 20 litres of perc and water in the electric HLT set to boil and ran both pumps. From HLT through chiller, all hoses into kettle, then back to HLT boiling for about 3. Chucked alot of my stainless bits and pieces in the HLT too. Once it got to about 60C the solution started fizzing and forthing up. Now everything is gleaming and after a boiling water only run for another hour and a flush with some starsan, im confident of cleanliness and sanitation again. Gotta love clean in place solutions.


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## JaseH (2/4/12)

At the end of a brew I run the waste water from my plate chiller back into the HLT, and some into a 20L bucket, its already quite warm from the heat exchange. I throw some sodium perc into the HLT and then recirculate this back through the pump, hoses and wort side of the plate chiller for 20min or so. Whilst its recirculating I bleed some off to scrub out the kettle and the MT. I then drain the SP solution, dump the fresh water form the bucket into the HLT and recirc again to flush the SP out.

I'm a bit pedantic when it comes to cleaning my rig!


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## DanteHicks (2/4/12)

hoppy2B said:


> I have 8 Halapeno chilli growing in the hop yard. Came in a punnet from Bunnings back in September and are starting to produce very well at the moment. Hot as all fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffire!



I have a great Green Jalapeno sauce recipe if you would like, it is hot but tasty.


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## bcp (2/4/12)

manticle said:


> I use it with boiling water Geoff and the cleaning power is amazing. A scungy cube with a couple of litres boiling water, sealed and shaken vigorously comes up as good as new in minutes or less. I'm currently using the pure stuff which requires less rinsing than napisan etc (I'm guessing it's the surfactants etc that leave the slime with napisan and related products).



Where do you get the pure stuff? I'd like greater control of my dosages, and I keep having to rethink it with every different source.


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## Bribie G (2/4/12)

Catering suppliers and local cleaning supplies companies should be able to source it for you. It's about $80 a 25k sack or something like that, which is why it's a good idea to do a bulk buy as it comes in cheaper if you can get say 10 sacks. Works out about a third of the price per gram of perc than buying napisan.


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## manticle (2/4/12)

bcp said:


> Where do you get the pure stuff? I'd like greater control of my dosages, and I keep having to rethink it with every different source.



I got it in a bulk buy organised by iamozziyob.


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## Lowlyf (11/7/17)

Sorry for reviving an old thread, but what is the best and cheapest stuff you guys are using at the moment in 2017??


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## manticle (11/7/17)

Leftovers from bulk buy 2 years ago. Chemical company in vic, can research if you want.


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## Yob (12/7/17)

Lowlyf said:


> Sorry for reviving an old thread, but what is the best and cheapest stuff you guys are using at the moment in 2017??



we source from redox here in victoria, you need a functioning business to put the order through, and may need the use of a fork to unload depending on how much you get, the drivers dont like to sit round while you unload by hand.

we get ours for about ~$30-$35 for a 25kg bag.... I have 3 sitting at home, one for the shed, one for the missus and one for other venues that may need a good cleaning.


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## Mikeyr (12/7/17)

Bit more pricey but Aurora Cleaning have 25kg bags at $80 pick up from Dandenong. Just got one delivered to Sydney. Rang Redox and a bunch of others here and none stock in Syd. Could get in Bris or Melb ....
They also have Meta Sil (and a bunch of other chems), but can't meta ship interstate. They were pretty helpful and you might be able to do a deal


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## Glomp (12/7/17)

This is much more expensive but I got it from a local cleaning supply store in Bendigo.

Oxygene by Castle Chemicals which is 100% sodium percarbonate

http://castlechem.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Oxygene_tb.pdf

It was $35 for 4 kg or $120 for 20kg.


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## damoninja (12/7/17)

booargy said:


> So does the mean that when I pump boiling SP solution through my brewery it is sterilising it as well? What is ideal ratio/temp?



Slight thread spin

I do this too, first to clean but then I'll also run the pump for 10-15 minutes while the wort is boiling to give it a real good nuking.


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## wynnum1 (12/7/17)

There are other chemicals that are powdered hydrogen peroxide non-chlorine shock potassium peroxymonosulfate and* disinfectants like *.Virkon. Virkon is a multi-purpose *disinfectant*. It contains oxone (*potassium peroxymonosulfate*), sodium dodecylbenzenesulfonate, *sulfamic acid*, and inorganic buffers. 
May be worth looking at some of these products .


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## wide eyed and legless (12/7/17)

Also Sodium perborate, more stable than Sodium percarbonate.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (12/7/17)

Yob said:


> we source from redox here in victoria, you need a functioning business to put the order through, and may need the use of a fork to unload depending on how much you get, the drivers dont like to sit round while you unload by hand.



I bought some for the winery through a reputable industry supplier, the bag that turned up was obviously from Redox. Since I buy yeast from them anyway I'll go direct next time.


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## Yob (13/7/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I bought some for the winery through a reputable industry supplier, the bag that turned up was obviously from Redox. Since I buy yeast from them anyway I'll go direct next time.



Redox sell yeast?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (13/7/17)

Yes, they carry the Mauri range. I really like AWRI Fusion for the bordeaux varieties, especially if they are a little bit green.


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## Pnutapper (26/7/17)

I was wondering if someone with better chemistry knowledge can help me out here.

For years I have used a product called Gaynew to soak stainless steel fittings in to clean them. It was a product that was widely used in hospitality venues to clean stainless steel beer lines. With the advent of barrier tubing and glycol systems, the zero degree beer line cleaners have taken over. As a result, Ecolab have decided to discontinue this line from their range.

My question is this: Would I get similar results from Sodium Percarbonate as I have been getting; based on the ingredients list in the pic below?

EDIT: Pic won't load up for some reason. I will try in a minute again. Ingredients list is:

Sodium Carbonate 30 - 60%
Sodium Phosphate 10 - <30%
Sodium Perborate 10 - <30%


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (26/7/17)

Straight sodium percarbonate won't have the detergent action of the mixture shown but will generate more peroxide. 

I'd try adding about 1 part tri sodium phophate (TSP) to 3 parts sodium percarbonate and see how it goes.


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## Pnutapper (27/7/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Straight sodium percarbonate won't have the detergent action of the mixture shown but will generate more peroxide.
> 
> I'd try adding about 1 part tri sodium phophate (TSP) to 3 parts sodium percarbonate and see how it goes.


Thank you mate... I was hoping you would be one of the members to reply.


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## FarsideOfCrazy (27/7/17)

Ahh LC,

It's like having a chemist/chemical engineer at call 24/7.


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