# Dedicated Rims Guide, Problems & Solution Thread



## Crusty (5/8/11)

Just wondering if those of you using Rims for the brewery would post here with some photos & descriptions of your setups.
There seems to be quite a bit of Herms info & pictures, descriptions, but not too much Rims information available.
It would help those of us considering Rims to have a look at what you guys are doing & what you would do differently if
you were starting again from scratch.


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## raven19 (6/8/11)

My RIMS build here:

Raven's RIMS Linky

In the above link there are further links to Thirsty Boys & jjeffrey's respective RIMS.


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## raven19 (6/8/11)

Linky to more brew rig pics of my RIMS Brewery in action:

Brew Rig Pics


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## Crusty (6/8/11)

Great setup Rav.
I have spoken in length to a number of rims brewers & all the talk about wort scorching & burnt tasting beers are proving to be unfounded.
Fuzzy logic PID control & a nice steady wort flow through the rims tube, seems to be all that's required for smooth operation of a rims setup.
I intend to run my recirculation for a couple of minutes to ensure the grain bed has settled & the wort is running clear before firing the rims element.


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## raven19 (25/9/11)

So scorching can happen in a RIMS system... however it often comes down to poor brewer control. aka my fault!

Scorching:
Post linky

(I have brewed 40+ batches prior to having this issue rear its ugly head).


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## Crusty (26/9/11)

I was getting a little worried there Rav.
The scorching issues that I have heard about seem to be the fault of the brewer & NOT the Rims setup.
I spoke to another forum member who had a scorching issue which was also his fault. Half way through the mash, he decided to stir the mash & ended up with quite a bit of flour which ended up attaching itself to the Rims element & caused some scorching. He has done 40 odd brews as well & never had an issue with scorching until stirring the mash. He has not had any further problems since.


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## raven19 (26/9/11)

Yeah mate, totally my fault I am 100% sure!

My rims tube can now be accessed to clean regularly so I won't have any issues from now on.


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## davo4772 (10/11/11)

Have been scouring the interwebs for info re setting up a RIMS.

What is the general opinion on low density vs standard elements. A standard element is much cheaper and easier to source. From what I can gather most people use a standard element and with a decent flow rate there is no problem.

Cheers

Dave


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## raven19 (10/11/11)

Thirsty Boy's RIMS chamber uses a standard high(er) density element with no issues afaik.

I copped scorching (by stupidly) stopping the wort flow with the element still on. The flow of wort past the element strips the heat and seems to eliminate scorching in almost all cases.

Rooting Kings also runs a pretty standard element with no issues on the scorching.

Standard element should see you through fine imo. Just ensure you turn off the element a minute or so before you turn off the pump.


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## husky (27/2/12)

Heres my single vessel RIMS system. Uses a 2200W element powered off a PID controller through a custom RIMS tube. Tube was designed with minimum space between element and tube inner wall to speed up flow past the element. Inlet and outlet are tangental to induce a swirling action. 200mm of tube length after the element to mix up the wort and get a constant temp before being read by the PT100 probe.

First brew this weekend and no scorching at all, nothing even stuck to the element. My setup allows me to run the march pump at almost full flow rate since I do a full volume mash and no sparge. This ensures a nice fast flow past the element. 

I recirc through the inner mesh basket and grain bed then remove at the end of the mash and liquor is already in the kettle. 2 x 2200W elements to power the kettle boil. Loving the RIMS. Takes up a bit less room than a HERMS although everything else is the same. Could swap the tube out for a pot and coil with the same element inside and run as a HERMS but cant see the need.

Heres the link to a thread with some more pictures

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...60&start=60


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## Crusty (28/2/12)

Excellent work husky, the rig looks fantastic.
Have run water tests on mine, calibrated my boil kettle volume & HLT sight glass & installed my silicone hoses.
I have received my grain, hops & yeast from Ross & will be doing a maiden brew on the new Rims system possibly on the weekend.


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## raven19 (28/2/12)

Mod Edit - 'Airlocked' this thread so easier to find for brewers future reference and moved it to 'Gear and Equipment' section of the forums.


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## MastersBrewery (3/3/12)

Found this on a yanky forum, it was setup with a low density 4500w element. with valves 1,3,and5 closed and 2and 4open it's a normal rims. With 1,2 and 3 open and 4,5 closed, it works as an instant water heater, for strike and and sparge. Obviously you would need some serious power to run it here, though I was thinking perhaps two rims tubes in series might do the job


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## komodo (3/3/12)

Just bought a KegKing RIMS tube and 2200watt heating element.
Just need to get some plumbing fittings (needed to come back to work have a bit of a head scratch and thing before I bought fittings I didnt need) 

Anyone got any kind of circuit designed to make sure one doesnt have the heating element on without wort flowing?
Im wondering if I use a PID with the sensor in the wort return dish combind with a simple "on/off" controller thats set at say 85 degrees that will cut power to the element if liquid in the RIMS tube gets above that temp thus avoiding scorching from having the element on without wort flow. Also need to workout the best method of a liquid sensor to make sure the element can be switched on without liquid in the tube. 




Kegking RIMS


Kegking RIMS end (need to come up with a method of getting a thermowell in there and being able to keep it clean)


Parts

RIMS housing $199.95
Triclover mounting $29.95
2200 watt element $39.95
Total (at this stage still need a few fittings and a thermowell) = $268.85


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## razz (3/3/12)

KegKing sell a "Bulkhead for temp probe" $12.95 on their website parts list. I thought they would have offered to sell you one to go with the RIMS tube.
I bought one of these RIMS tubes from KK a couple of weeks ago and fitted my own temp probe fitting through the end but it was a pain in the arse. Instead of mucking around trying to get a thermowell or bulkhead and probe in the end of the tube you could use a s/s T on the 1/2" outlet, you would then have to blank off the end of the tube.


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## husky (3/3/12)

Check out page 7 for the bulkhead.

http://www.kegking.com.au/Downloads/Catalo...rice%20List.pdf

Unless Kee is there you may not get all the info you need, thats my experience anyway. Didnt realise these were for sale as yet. Last I spoke to him they were still in testing. That was only a month or so ago. He was running them with a simple STC controller apparently. Looks like a nice simple way to get into RIMS.


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## komodo (4/3/12)

He did sell me one of those bulkheads doesnt suit my temp probe though so I'm going to have to sort something else out. I think I might get the stainless 100mm weldless thermowell and insert my probe in that with some thermal grease. 
I couldnt tell you the guy that served me. Nice enough guy with a bit of an accent. 
First time I've been to KegKing so I spent ages just browsing. Some good stuff available there. I actually went with the intention of just checking out the kegerators.


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## razz (4/3/12)

That's the end of my brew day, I barely got started and there was a flash of light and a puff of smoke that came out of the end of my KK 2200 watt element in the RIMS tube. She no worky now. Back to KK on Wednesday, only used it once before today.


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## husky (4/3/12)

Must be the day for it. Set everything up for a German Pilsner and getting an "oral" error from the PID. Bit of reading on the net tells me its a probe issue. Put a K type in from fridge temp controller and it works so time for a new probe. Could have brewed without the rims as I used to but would rather wait for a new probe.
Lesson learned - Buy a second probe as a spare. Pretty sure it was just a cheapie from ebay anyways. Have one on order from Benney but wont be here until late next week, grrrrr....


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## razz (4/3/12)

I feel your pain Husky. On closer inspection of my heater the power cord insulation has come back about 5-8mm from the heater fitting, so I guess one of the connectors has shorted out.


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## husky (4/3/12)

The newer ones apparently had better insulation. I have three of the early ones and two have the cable pulled out of the insulation however have not shorted as yet. Pretty sure these have a 2 or 3 year warranty so should be a straight swap for your element.


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## razz (4/3/12)

That's good to know and Kee has always been great to deal with so I'm not to fussed about it. Have you tried to fix up yours?


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## husky (4/3/12)

razz said:


> That's good to know and Kee has always been great to deal with so I'm not to fussed about it. Have you tried to fix up yours?




Nope, have the cable section cabletied to a stainless bar so theres absolutly no movment or flex at the joint


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## husky (4/3/12)

Like this


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## razz (4/3/12)

Top idea Husky. Any ideas on strain relief for the RIMS heater?


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## husky (4/3/12)

Doing the same. Having a bit of 6mm S/S welded inline with the cable to cabletie off to. Just waiting till I can get a stand made to keep the outlet higher than the inled to have it all done at once. Could organise getting some 6mm rod welded to your keg king tube if you would like. Not sure how else you could do it neatly. Maybe some 6mm or similar round bat clamped to the tube with some metal hose clamps. This wouldnt work for me as the triclover will get in the way.


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## booargy (4/3/12)

this is the only weakness with these elements. I had 5 of them down to 3 now.


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## razz (4/3/12)

Thanks for the offer Husky. Might try it out when we can organise something. Booargy, the element on the left in the pic, have you insulated that with some type of liquid rubber?


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## booargy (4/3/12)

razz said:


> Thanks for the offer Husky. Might try it out when we can organise something. Booargy, the element on the left in the pic, have you insulated that with some type of liquid rubber?



silicon, I would use the orange high temp stuff.


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (4/3/12)

booargy said:


> this is the only weakness with these elements. I had 5 of them down to 3 now.
> View attachment 52824



I have had 2 out of 3 go on me. The last one was replaced a little while ago and is still going strong!


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## Crusty (4/3/12)

I got my element from Tobins. 1" bsp threaded Stainless,350mm long, screw terminals, 2400watt. Have run test after test with just water, stepping temps & it works flawlessly. My Rims tube is a bit of a PITA as I mounted it vertical & I couldn't source an off the shelf terminal cover so I just used a small piece of PVC pipe & end cap & heated it a little so it fits over the 1" nut on the element. A hole is drilled in the PVC cap with a gland that runs the power. I also got the sparky to use insulated plugs for the + & - as well as the earth terminal that's earthed to the Rims stand so I can simply disconnect it & unscrew the element from the Rims housing without twisting the chord. It's not the best idea for ease of cleaning but it's not too bad. I will be doing my first run with the new system this Tuesday morning. It's a simple APA, 55deg protein rest for 10mins, a 66deg sacc rest for 60mins, a 78deg mash out for 10mins & I am going to batch sparge. I have a 2L yeast starter on the stir plate doing it's thing with a Wyeast 1272.


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## Crusty (6/3/12)

Ok!
Maiden run done with the Rims system today & I'm not too happy. I mashed in @3.75l/kg but left my grain crush on 0.9 of the barley crusher. From the start, I got an almost stuck sparge. I loosened the grain bed & continued on, almost zero flow from the pump, this is now really shitting me off.
For the whole protein rest, sacc rest & mash out, I had to manually turn the element off & on as the PID overshot my set point by nearly 10deg. I've ended up with a hotter mash than I was aiming for, much more losses to trub, hoses, etc & a 74% efficiency instead of my expected 80%. 22l into the fermenter @1.043 instead of expected 25l @1.047. Improvements needed for round 2. What water to grain ratio are you guys mashing at?
No scorching though, so that's a bonus. For some reason, the mash bed just seemed to gum up with the continuous re-circulation.


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## razz (6/3/12)

Crusty, how long after dough in did you start to recirc? Starting to soon can be a certain stuck mash on some false bottoms


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## Crusty (6/3/12)

razz said:


> Crusty, how long after dough in did you start to recirc? Starting to soon can be a certain stuck mash on some false bottoms



Probably about 5mins or so.
I have a domed 12" false bottom.


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## QldKev (6/3/12)

razz said:


> Crusty, how long after dough in did you start to recirc? Starting to soon can be a certain stuck mash on some false bottoms




Do you underlet your strike water?

Everyone I've seen brew always underlets, but commences to recirc basically straight away,


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## Crusty (6/3/12)

QldKev said:


> Do you underlet your strike water?
> 
> Everyone I've seen brew always underlets, but commences to recirc basically straight away,



Yep.
Added the grain first, heated up 20l strike water & transferred to the mash tun via the tun's ball valve. Stirred it in & let it sit for about 5mins, then started recirculating. Mashed in @3.75l/kg.


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## davo4772 (6/3/12)

Crusty said:


> What water to grain ratio are you guys mashing at?


, 


My first run 3L per kg. Had 800g of wheat in the mash. No problems.


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## razz (6/3/12)

Crusty said:


> Probably about 5mins or so.
> I have a domed 12" false bottom.


You could try 15 mins minimum to allow for the grist to fully absorb water. Last time I used a domed falsie I had the same problem, I found that letting the mash rest at dough in gave me time to take a pH reading and make water adjustments (if needed) Now I wait 30 mins and recirc for 60 mins, the liqour flows really well.


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## Crusty (6/3/12)

david72 said:


> ,
> 
> 
> My first run 3L per kg. Had 800g of wheat in the mash. No problems.



I only had 500g in this one, it shouldn't have posed a problem.




razz said:


> You could try 15 mins minimum to allow for the grist to fully absorb water. Last time I used a domed falsie I had the same problem, I found that letting the mash rest at dough in gave me time to take a pH reading and make water adjustments (if needed) Now I wait 30 mins and recirc for 60 mins, the liqour flows really well.



I might try that razz, but it really shouldn't make too much of a difference. It was a fairly loose mash & I didn't anticipate the dramas I had today. Something that has me a bit puzzled is some times my flow from the flase bottom is quite good & other times, it seems quite slow. I have it hard plumbed with 1/2" copper tube & I am starting to get a feeling that this is where my problem might be. Tomorrow I am going to get a couple of 1/2" barbed tails with a female end & connect the falsie up to the tails via 1/2" silicone tubing just to see if that's the problem. The only thing I'm worried about is the grain crushing the silicone tubing flat, but maybe I'm worrying for nothing. I mentioned this because sometimes when priming my march pump, it flows like there's no tomorrow but tonight when doing some more water tests, I connected the hose to the mash tun ball valve, opened it up to get my suction line filled, it struggled. Opened up the outlet on the pump to release the air & it was filling like snail pace so maybe it's the hard plumbed tubing in my mash tun.


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## raven19 (6/3/12)

Crusty - I actually get my Water into the MT, set my pump on, then turn the PID on to get the RIMS tube up to temp. I tend to aim 4-5 degrees above my target Mash Temp. Let this run for 5mins or so then when up to temp, turn PID off. Continue to run pump so it strips excess heat from RIMS tube. Then I turn pump off, and pour all grain into MT (the grain drops the whole temp by around 5 degrees roughly season dependent). Stir and mix well. Verlouf, however start by doing this VERY slowly, don't open the pump outlet straight away, I only open my pump outlet valve slightly then creep it up slowly to around 50% open. Let this run for a little while then flick PID back on and adjust temp down to target mash temp.

If I open the pump outlet too quickly the grain compacts and a stuck sparge results. Also in massive grain bills I need to be extra careful with more grain weighing down the mash!

Grist ratio for me is 2.5 - 3L per kg of grain approx.

I run a 1mm gap on MM2.

You can also add in rice gulls for bigger mash sizes.


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## razz (6/3/12)

The thick walled silicone hose should be okay, but the opening through the copper will really be no different to the fittings on the silicone hose. It's more likely some air trapped in the plumbing.


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## Crusty (6/3/12)

raven19 said:


> Crusty - I actually get my Water into the MT, set my pump on, then turn the PID on to get up to temp. I tend to aim 4-5 degrees above my target Mash Temp. Let this run for 5mins or so then when up to temp, turn PID off. Continue to run pump so it strips excess heat from RIMS tube. Then I turn pump off, and pour all grain into MT. Stir and mix well. Verlouf, however start by doing this VERY slowly, don't open the pump outlet straight away, I only open my pump outlet valve slightly then creep it up slowly to around 50% open. LEt this run for a little while then flick PID back on and adjust temp down to target mash temp.
> 
> Grist ratio for me is 2.5 - 3L per kg of grain approx.
> 
> ...



Thanks Rav.
I will open the mill up slightly to 1mm. I never got any flow from the start & hit the wall from the get go. I have some old grain lying around & I am going to do a dummy brew just to get it sorted. I don't have the grain to actually make a proper one so will just pretend it's the real deal. I will try your advice & see how I go.
Cheers mate.


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## Crusty (6/3/12)

razz said:


> The thick walled silicone hose should be okay, but the opening through the copper will really be no different to the fittings on the silicone hose. It's more likely some air trapped in the plumbing.



I'm clutching at straws at the moment. You're probably right, it won't make any difference.


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## raven19 (6/3/12)

You can use mains pressure to prime the pump and hoses too if that helps. Works a treat for me.

Simple to plumb into your system too mate.


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## Crusty (6/3/12)

raven19 said:


> You can use mains pressure to prime the pump and hoses too if that helps. Works a treat for me.
> 
> Simple to plumb into your system too mate.
> 
> View attachment 52870



Nice.
I don't think it's the prime really. When I primed the pump via the HLT, no problems whatsoever. Fully primed & flowing great. The problem occurred when I underlett the grain bed, turned off the pump outlet, let sit for about 5mins & just opened the pump outlet very slightly. I couldn't get hardly any flow from the pump, almost completely stuck except for a trickle.


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## husky (6/3/12)

Did you try stirring the grain with the pump valve open slightly?(stirring all the way to the bottom) This should tell you if its a compacted grain bed or a plumbing issue. If youre getting flow while stirring then you could say its a grain bed issue. If not, look at the plumbing.
My only brew using RIMS had a 0.9mm gap set on crankandstein mill and a similar liquor ratio to yours, with no issues. False bottom was a 350mm perforated cone. With such a high liquor to grain ratio you wouldn't think it was a compacted grain bed.


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## Crusty (6/3/12)

husky said:


> Did you try stirring the grain with the pump valve open slightly?(stirring all the way to the bottom) This should tell you if its a compacted grain bed or a plumbing issue. If youre getting flow while stirring then you could say its a grain bed issue. If not, look at the plumbing.
> My only brew using RIMS had a 0.9mm gap set on crankandstein mill and a similar liquor ratio to yours, with no issues. False bottom was a 350mm perforated cone. With such a high liquor to grain ratio you wouldn't think it was a compacted grain bed.



Definitely a compacted grain bed. I turned off the element of the PID & stirred the mash & the flow went as normal but when I let it be, it compacted again & slowed to a trickle.


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## husky (6/3/12)

Got some pics of your setup without any water or grain in use?


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## redbeard (7/3/12)

Crusty,

try to reduce the flour in the crush, slow the pump recirc, and/or some rice gulls. What is your false bottom mesh like ?


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## Crusty (7/3/12)

Round two this morning with a dummy run. Mashed in @3L/kg & opened up my mill crush to 1mm.
_*FREAKIN AWESOME!
*_55deg protein rest for 10mins, 66deg sacc rest for 60mins & a 78deg mash out for 10mins. I am running the pump at around 50% open, maybe a touch less & no problems at all. Temps are spot on, wort is crystal clear. Just too much flour & too fine a crush yesterday. I may have had my barley crusher on 0.8mm so that was something I failed to look at before yesterdays brew. Looking forward to batch no:2 next week.


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## husky (7/3/12)

Nice work! what are you using to adjust the gap on your mill? feeler gague?


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## hsb (7/3/12)

I've had similar sounding stuck mashes of late with a HERMS setup - March Pump recirculating from false bottom. I think mine were twofold, first I was using the 'dregs' from precrushed store grain, where all the flour had fallen to the bottom of the bag meaning I had a fair bit of flour in the Tun. I also had some problems priming. Good to hear your problems are nearly sorted crusty.
Interested in how to measure a 1mm gap too - I have a new Monster Mill but feeler gauges I've seen on eBay only go up to about 0.8mm - is it the old 'credit card' 1mm setting?


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## QldKev (7/3/12)

Crusty said:


> Round two this morning with a dummy run. Mashed in @3L/kg & opened up my mill crush to 1mm.
> _*FREAKIN AWESOME!
> *_55deg protein rest for 10mins, 66deg sacc rest for 60mins & a 78deg mash out for 10mins. I am running the pump at around 50% open, maybe a touch less & no problems at all. Temps are spot on, wort is crystal clear. Just too much flour & too fine a crush yesterday. I may have had my barley crusher on 0.8mm so that was something I failed to look at before yesterdays brew. Looking forward to batch no:2 next week.



Did your brewhouse efficiency change from the mill adjustment?

I've only done 2 brews so far on my new 3V with an internal RIMS, both have suffered from the flour getting stuck to the heating element.




As soon as it gets like this the elements boil dry protection is continuously cutting it out, making mashouts above 72 virtually impossible.

I always commence the recirc for a minute before switching on the RIMS controller, and I can run the March Pump at full flow without getting a stuck mash, so plenty of flow. I'm using about 3.5L/kg so plenty of water in there. I'm currently crushing at 0.889mm so thinking of trying 1mm to see if it reduces the flour on the element. 

QldKev


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## QldKev (7/3/12)

hsb said:


> I've had similar sounding stuck mashes of late with a HERMS setup - March Pump recirculating from false bottom. I think mine were twofold, first I was using the 'dregs' from precrushed store grain, where all the flour had fallen to the bottom of the bag meaning I had a fair bit of flour in the Tun. I also had some problems priming. Good to hear your problems are nearly sorted crusty.
> Interested in how to measure a 1mm gap too - I have a new Monster Mill but feeler gauges I've seen on eBay only go up to about 0.8mm - is it the old 'credit card' 1mm setting?



You can use a 0.6 and a 0.4mm together to get the 1mm


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## hsb (7/3/12)

Thanks, didn't realise you could jam two of them together like that :blink: , off to eBay.


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## Crusty (7/3/12)

husky said:


> Nice work! what are you using to adjust the gap on your mill? feeler gague?



Yeah. Feeler gauge. 1mm now & all good.




QldKev said:


> Did your brewhouse efficiency change from the mill adjustment?
> 
> I've only done 2 brews so far on my new 3V with an internal RIMS, both have suffered from the flour getting stuck to the heating element.
> 
> ...



The crush was the culprit. My brewhause efficiency suffered yesterday from the stuck sparge & mash overshoot. No such problems today though. I went into BTP & entered my numbers & I'm pretty chuffed.
Collected [email protected] temp corrected instead of 34.04L @1.035, this gives me an efficiency of 88% instead of my planned 80%. I will have to add 4.57L water to get to my starting pre-boil gravity of 1.035. Instead of boiling 34.04L @1.035, I will be boiling 36.5L & should end up with 27L into the fermenter @1.047 instead of expected 25L. Pretty happy with that. :beerbang:


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## razz (10/3/12)

razz said:


> That's the end of my brew day, I barely got started and there was a flash of light and a puff of smoke that came out of the end of my KK 2200 watt element in the RIMS tube. She no worky now. Back to KK on Wednesday, only used it once before today.


Okay, good to go for tomorrow's brew day. Heater swapped over by Keg King and did a test run with the mash water, I used the RIMS to heat the water in 45 mins to 67 degrees. 
I'm still not 100% on the power cord in the back of the heater though, design doesn't look any different, I guess I need to treat it with kid gloves and not move it around to much when cleaning. I'm looking forward to the American stout in tomorrow's brew day.


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## MaltyHops (10/3/12)

razz said:


> That's the end of my brew day, I barely got started and there was a flash
> of light and a puff of smoke that came out of the end of my KK 2200 watt
> element in the RIMS tube. She no worky now. Back to KK on Wednesday,
> only used it once before today.





razz said:


> I feel your pain Husky. On closer inspection of my heater the power cord
> insulation has come back about 5-8mm from the heater fitting, so I guess
> one of the connectors has shorted out.


Is it too late to get a photo of this posted?



husky said:


> Nope, have the cable section cabletied to a stainless bar so theres absolutly no
> movment or flex at the joint


I've done something like this - as my kettle's smallish (21L) and the element
is mounted below one of the kettle handles, I've just cable tied the cord to the
handle. Can just see this on top-right of the following pix:


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## Crusty (11/3/12)

Took a gravity reading today of my maiden brew with the Rims set up & temp corrected, it has come down to 1.009 from 1.043, still giving me 4.44% ABV, not too shabby. Although this beer was mashed too high, I will bottle as normal in a week or so & see how it pans out. Had a taste sample from the fermenter & it actually tastes really good, so I may have salvaged this one.


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## beercoder (12/5/12)

Hi Guys,

I've created a blog about my RIMS brewery here.

My system is controlled by a PC using software I have written which interfaces with the brewery using a USB interface controller.


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## Thirsty Boy (16/5/12)

QldKev said:


> Did your brewhouse efficiency change from the mill adjustment?
> 
> I've only done 2 brews so far on my new 3V with an internal RIMS, both have suffered from the flour getting stuck to the heating element.
> 
> ...



Kev, its probably not just flour, but a combination of a little flour and some protien buildup on the element. It gets hot, break material forms on the surface, and if there is much suspended crap in the liquid, it gets trapped in with the break material. All adds up to a nice insulating layer. I get it on my rims element (its really too high a heat density to be ideal)

Solution for me was - recirculate for a while before turing on the element. It clears the wort up and that significantly reduces the problem.

So what i do is:

Drop in water frfom the HLT at "close" to my target stirke water temp, get it perfect with the rims.

Rims element off, pump off - mash in to a 55 P rest.

Begin re-circulation, get the recirc settled and flow rate more or less where I want it. That takes about 5 minutes, which is as long as I want my P rest anyway and is also long enough for the recirculation to have started to clear the wort up nicely.

Element on and begin ramp to first conversion rest. proceed with mash.

Mash out - unless you have a pretty low density element (which neither you or I do) then to get wort up to a full MO temp is going to mean the element surface gets pretty warm, more than warm enough to start to form break on the surface in decent amounts. If I am not careful at the start, then at the end, I'll get a bit of burning at the element surface and can struggle to get to full MO temps (you will get the overheat cut-out thing). But if I am careful at the start of the mash and the element is nice and clean before I start to get into the higher temps - I manage OK. The element always has a light layer of goo on it at the end of the mash, but it just wipes away.

I know that you are already recirculating for a minute before turning on the element - make that 5ish minutes to get visibly clear return wort & I think it will help. 

TB


----------



## QldKev (16/5/12)

Thanks for the ideas, I've managed to get the issue with the element sorted, I'm basically doing what you mentioned.

I've increased the crush to 1.0mm (I've found the change from 0.9mm has not changed efficiency at all) 
Do not turn on the RIMS until the wort is fairly clear.
Bypassed the overheat cutout switch

I found RIMS element for the size of my system was a bit slow. Just using my water heating calc I decided I needed more power (60L of mash in water on my typical brew size). So I added a HERMS to the system. That allows me to mash in (I also mash in a couple of degrees low) and use the HERMS to achieve and maintain the correct temp, and only when I'm ready to go to the next step I switch on the RIMS. Even with a 5 min prot rest I find it has clarified pretty good.


QldKev


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## raven19 (16/5/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Kev, its probably not just flour, but a combination of a little flour and some protien buildup on the element. It gets hot, break material forms on the surface, and if there is much suspended crap in the liquid, it gets trapped in with the break material. All adds up to a nice insulating layer. I get it on my rims element (its really too high a heat density to be ideal)
> 
> ...
> 
> Mash out - unless you have a pretty low density element (which neither you or I do)



Quality post there TB.

I find with my low density element (ceramic sheathed 1inch diameter, approx 300mm long, 2400W), I *still *get this crud built up on it after a brew. Mind you my recirc is nowhere near 5 mins, I have the element on within 2 mins of stirring the mash and having the pump recirculating.

And similar, I just make sure I get it a clean as part of my cleaning regime while the kettle is boiling.


----------



## Maheel (16/5/12)

anyone running a no flow no heat automated type system ?

or are most circulating with pump then turning on rims when flow is visibly running etc ?

any simple solutions 

cheers


----------



## Thirsty Boy (17/5/12)

raven19 said:


> Quality post there TB.
> 
> I find with my low density element (ceramic sheathed 1inch diameter, approx 300mm long, 2400W), I *still *get this crud built up on it after a brew. Mind you my recirc is nowhere near 5 mins, I have the element on within 2 mins of stirring the mash and having the pump recirculating.
> 
> And similar, I just make sure I get it a clean as part of my cleaning regime while the kettle is boiling.



ahh, you'll always get break shizz building on the element as long as the temp of the surface is above 65-70 when break starts to form, its just that on a high density element, the bit of insulation makes a lot of difference to the thermal transference. I get "burn" at the element surface if I allow too much goop to build up there, if you have thermal cutouts stuff going on, I guess that kicks in first. Nice low density element and your heat has a lot more surface area to go through and a little protien fuzz isn't going to matter all that much.



Maheel said:


> anyone running a no flow no heat automated type system ?
> 
> or are most circulating with pump then turning on rims when flow is visibly running etc ?
> 
> ...




Do you mean that there is a sensor in the system that cuts power to the element when there is no flow? As a safety type thing - Or do you mean a system where neither pump nor element are turned on if there is no heat required?


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## Maheel (17/5/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Do you mean that there is a sensor in the system that cuts power to the element when there is no flow? As a safety type thing -






this one (and using 1 pump)

i was thinking of possible element burn out if there was no liquid or flow in the rims tube if rims left on and no pump etc 

maybe if you had the pump switch rigged next to rims switch that only allows power to rims if pump switch "ON"
a double pole pump switch that allows power to rims switch type setup?

would that work ?


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## Thirsty Boy (18/5/12)

Maheel said:


> this one (and using 1 pump)
> 
> i was thinking of possible element burn out if there was no liquid or flow in the rims tube if rims left on and no pump etc
> 
> ...



it would actually be a pretty good idea, something that would be useful on my own rims - less important the closer your main controller temp sensor is to your RIMS unit outlet.

the problem is of course that perhaps you can turn on the elements when there is no flow - which will make the rims tube get too hot.... if the sensor is a reasonable distance from the rims element, it might actually boil and the sensor wont know that the temp is going up till super hot wort/steam from the rims shoots up the hose from the boiling rims and triggers it.

Something to sense whether the pump is turned on would be OK - but probably a bigger problem is getting a stuck mash and having the flow choke off when the pump IS actually running, or maybe shutting down the outlet valve on your pump, and forgetting to open it before you allow power back into your element.

If your temp sensor is right on the outlet of your rims tube... then its going to see a rapid temp increase fairly pronto, cutting the power and probably there wouldn't be too much of a problem - if its (as mine is) two or three feet away at my MT wort return, then with low/zero flow, that heat doesn't make it to the sensor in a timely enough fashion for the system to be able to control the element in any useful way.

I have thought of routing the main power for my whole system through a single cut-off - basically a simple disk thermostat that I would mount on the outside of the RIMS tube. That way if things go wrong and start to really overheat in the tube, it would just click off power to everything, except perhaps an alarm to let me know that the shit has hit the fan. I imagine there are a number of solutions, but this seems the simplest to me.

One of these days when I feel the urge to tinker I'll probably rig something like this up as a failsafe - till then I'll just have to pay attention.


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## QldKev (18/5/12)

If you really want the safety switch get a level sensor from an old washing machine. It's basically a long tube with a diaphragm operated switch on the end. Use the switch to enable your heating element via a SSR. You T the tube into the wort line, if there is flow the pressure of the wort triggers the switch. If you don't have the pump running or you get a stuck mash there is no pressure from the wort to trigger the switch. 


QldKev


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## BigDaddy (13/6/12)

Where do people source these elements from???

I have just got a Brewhardware RIMS tube & am looking for a suitable element. This tube has a 1" NPT access point for the element. I reckon I could get a 12" long element in there with a short PT100 temp probe in the opposite end. I'm due to order the PID, SSR & probe soon but would rather have a clear understanding of the space available for the temp probe.

TIA


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## beercoder (13/6/12)

BigDaddy said:


> Where do people source these elements from???
> 
> I have just got a Brewhardware RIMS tube & am looking for a suitable element. This tube has a 1" NPT access point for the element. I reckon I could get a 12" long element in there with a short PT100 temp probe in the opposite end. I'm due to order the PID, SSR & probe soon but would rather have a clear understanding of the space available for the temp probe.
> 
> TIA




The element I use for my RIMS tube is from Keg King but they seem to be a little dodgy where the power cord is bound to the element. Grain and Grape also sell the same units. I can't remember where I bought the element for my HLT - it was from a specialist parts supplier (somewhere in Ringwood, Vic). They stock all sorts of parts for commercial and industrial appliances like washing machines, air conditiooners and the like but it wasn't cheap. If you spend time asking around from shop to shop eventually you'll find someone who can point you in the right direction.

I've also seen heating elements on ebay and they are very cheap. That will be probably be my next source. You'll need to wire it up as they come as just the pure element without any 240v plug.


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## flavo (14/6/12)

BigDaddy said:


> Where do people source these elements from???
> 
> I have just got a Brewhardware RIMS tube & am looking for a suitable element. This tube has a 1" NPT access point for the element. I reckon I could get a 12" long element in there with a short PT100 temp probe in the opposite end. I'm due to order the PID, SSR & probe soon but would rather have a clear understanding of the space available for the temp probe.
> 
> TIA


I have a one of their 1.5" RIMs tubes too. I made my own housing from a 1.5" to 2" concentric reducer and then placed a Keg King element into a 2" end cap. I got Derrin to machine out a 32mm hole in the end cap for the element. My temp prob is one of his 3" BCS-460 Temperature Probes, there's room to spare - not sure how much, I can try measure that out if you like.

I can take a photo tonight if you need. I am yet to test, maybe next brew day it will get a workout. I still have to finish off wiring my BCS.


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## punkin (14/6/12)

BigDaddy said:


> Where do people source these elements from???
> 
> I have just got a Brewhardware RIMS tube & am looking for a suitable element. This tube has a 1" NPT access point for the element. I reckon I could get a 12" long element in there with a short PT100 temp probe in the opposite end. I'm due to order the PID, SSR & probe soon but would rather have a clear understanding of the space available for the temp probe.
> 
> TIA



http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=64741

The elements i have will screw straight into npt most of the time. I run a bsp tap through the npt thread in my element guards as some of them can be very tight. You may be able to do the same thing by running a bsp threaded nipple or something through the thread.

Elements are a choice of 2400 watt or 3600 watt at $60 plus delivery. I am waiting on more of the 2400 watt elements to come as the first lot of 20 have sold out, but i still have some 3600 watt (15 amp) ones in stock.


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## BigDaddy (14/6/12)

Great Punkin - how does one go about ordering thru u?


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## punkin (14/6/12)

Just send me a PM mate.


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## BigDaddy (14/6/12)

flavo said:


> I have a one of their 1.5" RIMs tubes too. I made my own housing from a 1.5" to 2" concentric reducer and then placed a Keg King element into a 2" end cap. I got Derrin to machine out a 32mm hole in the end cap for the element. My temp prob is one of his 3" BCS-460 Temperature Probes, there's room to spare - not sure how much, I can try measure that out if you like.
> 
> I can take a photo tonight if you need. I am yet to test, maybe next brew day it will get a workout. I still have to finish off wiring my BCS.




Thanks Flavo - I want to stick to the 1" if I can - I reckon with a short probe (ie 1.5") and a 12" long element I should be cool


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## vortex (19/7/12)

Rex Banner said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I've created a blog about my RIMS brewery here.
> 
> My system is controlled by a PC using software I have written which interfaces with the brewery using a USB interface controller.



Just added your RSS feed to my google reader. I had a skim over the latest software post - sounds interesting. Is the software open source?


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## beercoder (19/7/12)

vortex said:


> Just added your RSS feed to my google reader. I had a skim over the latest software post - sounds interesting. Is the software open source?



The software isn't open source at the moment. I may upload it to CodePlex or something at a later date - once it's running smoothly. For those interested, it is written in C# using Visual Studio 2010 (.Net 4.0 framework) but will probably migrate to VS2012 and develop a "Metro" user interface for tablets once Windows 8 is released.

I've been doing a lot of work lately around the automation section, with the software automatically working out the flow routes for the liquid based on your system setup. I've got auto-mashing working with automatic temperature raises or pre-defined raises over a time period but still need to implement auto-HLT fill/heat and transfer to mash tun based on your recipe requirements.

I'd like to get to a stage where you design your recipe and press "Go". The system will alert you when it needs user interaction but the ultimate system should be able to go from start to finish with the user only needing to add grains during the mash or hops during the boil when told by the software.

I'm still waiting on the PCB for my new interface controller to be printed and sent to me which is holding me off from messing around with the electric ball valves I recently purchased.


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## Blackened (25/7/12)

Hey all, 
I'm building a rims and I have a possible alternate heat source. Well 2 actually. I'm seriously considering using two electric frypans, with the sides cut off, face to face with a gap between the two heating surfaces to pump the mash liquor through. Nice large surface area to help make the system more resistant to scorching etc. Not necessary I know but I have the tools and could make it cheaply. Also I was thinking about steam pumped through a coil with the liquor flowing over and through, but I'm uncertain if 100c steam would provide a great enough heat differential, and I don't think I want to be building a pressurised steam setup to get the temp higher. Thoughts?


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## Thirsty Boy (25/7/12)

yeah, it'd work.

You'd have to give some thought to the flow dynamics in there especially for the purposes of cleaning, given that you couldn't really open it up to inspect/physically clean the unit. Square things, 90 bends, dead corners etc.... chemical cleaning can be less effective of there are many of those things in a CIP situation.

You also have to think about whether it really is "high surface area" - most pf the electric frypans I've seen are just a round element fused to the back of an aluminium plate. So what you have is basically a heat sink that you hope will distribute the energy from a not very high surface area element, across a wider area. Having watched water boil in my electric frypan, all the action tends to be in a circle that is directly over the element, which leads me to think that perhaps in a liquid contact situation, the metal doesn't do that great a job of spreading the heat around.

Still, two frypans, two elements, two times what possibly limited heat sinking you might get from the metal.... its going to be lower dednsity than a lot of other rims solutions.

Steam through a coil... that'd work too, but I reckon you'd be making your life pretty hard for not a lot of benefit. If you are going to have coils and stuff flowing through them, and potentially other separate vessels for heating up the stuf...... might as well just go with a HERMS. If ou like your original idea better though... think creatively. Boiling water pumped through is also 100 and will work just fine, you just need to design it so the contact surface area will transfer enough heat. Steam is likely to be hotter than 100 anyway... so why not use a heat transfer fluid that also gets hotter - like oil. Then you dont have to worry about closed pressure systems and you can just use a pump (although I dont know which sort of pumps would be suitable) or set it up so it thermo syphons.

A rims can be complicated, or stupidly simple - up to you.

Think of an electric kettle from the shop.... your pump puts wort into the kettle, the wort runs out through the kettle spout back into your mash tun. The only other thing required to make that a "rims" is a way to control the temperature. Everything else is basically just window dressing.


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## barls (25/7/12)

looking at elements for my 600mm tube.
whats thoughts one this one
http://www.stoveconnection.com.au/shop/ind...s/kz24hq00.html


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## Blackened (25/7/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> yeah, it'd work.
> 
> You'd have to give some thought to the flow dynamics in there especially for the purposes of cleaning, given that you couldn't really open it up to inspect/physically clean the unit. Square things, 90 bends, dead corners etc.... chemical cleaning can be less effective of there are many of those things in a CIP situation.
> 
> ...



Re: surface area, I get what you mean, but when I'm not aiming for boiling point I'm hoping the heat transfer to the surrounding material will be sufficient. 
Re: steam, well.... I have some "steam" producing equipment already as well as a nice bit of wound copper tube to fit inside a 50mm tube. But as you say, it's an indirect method of applying heat, with the associated lag and probably a challenge to get temp control working, more so than direct heating anyway. 
Re:CIP I hadn't considered trying that. I was intending for a design that could be dismantled. But if I were to make it round, inlet in the edge flowing along the inner wall and takeoff in the centre that would make it CIP maybe. 
Hehe funny you should mention kettles, I was just looking at SS kettles on the weekend for just this purpose. I don't like the base on the ones I could find. I don't want one that "sits" on the power socket, rather one that is hard wired or old style plugin.


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## redbeard (26/7/12)

barls said:


> looking at elements for my 600mm tube.
> whats thoughts one this one
> http://www.stoveconnection.com.au/shop/ind...s/kz24hq00.html



Its Nickel Copper Plated not Incalloy / SS but at 440mm should be low density. $25 is cheap enough to take a punt 
Is your probe at the end or in the tee ?


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## Thirsty Boy (26/7/12)

Blackened said:


> Re: surface area, I get what you mean, but when I'm not aiming for boiling point I'm hoping the heat transfer to the surrounding material will be sufficient.
> Re: steam, well.... I have some "steam" producing equipment already as well as a nice bit of wound copper tube to fit inside a 50mm tube. But as you say, it's an indirect method of applying heat, with the associated lag and probably a challenge to get temp control working, more so than direct heating anyway.
> Re:CIP I hadn't considered trying that. I was intending for a design that could be dismantled. But if I were to make it round, inlet in the edge flowing along the inner wall and takeoff in the centre that would make it CIP maybe.
> Hehe funny you should mention kettles, I was just looking at SS kettles on the weekend for just this purpose. I don't like the base on the ones I could find. I don't want one that "sits" on the power socket, rather one that is hard wired or old style plugin.



I'm not recommending CIP, the opposite in fact, I just assumed incorrectly that you'd be fusing the two faces together irreversibly. Much much better to be able to pull it apart and physically inspect it as well as physically clean it.

I'm still not convinced that the plates will give you any real advantage from a surface area perspective, but then again, I cant see that they present any actual disadvantages either - so no reason to not give it a whirl.

You will be somewhat less "efficient" than an immersed element where the heat has nowhere to go other than directly into the liquid.... but thats no real issue, rims elements dont need to be all that powerful anyway.

If you have dteam generating equipment - consider doirect injection of steam into the mash.... I have no idea of the benefits/detriments of doing that, but I know its been done on a HB scale before and would be the most bang for your energy buck.

Anyhow, it sounds like youhave a few equipment and fabrication options at your disposal - you can muck about with a few alternatives and just see what works, worst comes to worst, you can just default back to the standard models that are the common RIMS option and be confident that they are "known to work"

Have fun

TB


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## barls (26/7/12)

redbeard said:


> Its Nickel Copper Plated not Incalloy / SS but at 440mm should be low density. $25 is cheap enough to take a punt
> Is your probe at the end or in the tee ?


in the outlet.
might just grab one and then deal with it.


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## vortex (28/1/13)

Has anyone used the elements CB sell, and have any feedback on their quality and performance? 
http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=3853

Looking to buy two, one for the HLT the other for the RIMS tube, naturally.


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## NickB (28/1/13)

I used them for a while. Went through 8 or so (a known issue) before I bit the bullet and grabbed the elements from the post a few above. Happy with them, but a pain to seal initially.

The Keg King elements that CB sells have apparently had the problems fixed, but honestly, I still don't trust them.

Cheers


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## vortex (28/1/13)

NickB said:


> I used them for a while. Went through 8 or so (a known issue) before I bit the bullet and grabbed the elements from the post a few above. Happy with them, but a pain to seal initially.
> 
> The Keg King elements that CB sells have apparently had the problems fixed, but honestly, I still don't trust them.
> 
> Cheers


Oh, I didn't know they were the same as the KegKing elements. Might steer clear in that case.


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## NickB (28/1/13)

Yep, that's exactly what they are. As mentioned, I have asked Ross a couple of times about whether the new batch have had any issues, and have heard good things. But once bitten, and all that. I'll stick to my HWS elements thank you!


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## vortex (28/1/13)

Thanks for your comments. One of the local guys has a way of fixing up the elements as well, could be worth a punt if there's been some good reports at least if I can get them fixed locally.


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## raven19 (29/1/13)

To fix them, you need to cut into them at the base - something that is not ideal imo.

Awesome Fury has also gone through a few of these elements also with similar issues to NickB as I understand.

With the RIMS system you can get away with higher element heat densities, as the liquid strips heat from the element as it flows past the element.


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## mash head (11/6/13)

Some questions re elements
1 is there a way of calculating how much heat an element will deliver to a liquid based on its wattage or is the density more important.
2 are people using a variable resistor to control the heat out put or just switching them on and off (via controller)at full power.
The idea of controlling mash temps with electricity appeal because of the accuracy you can achieve.


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## Blackened (23/6/13)

mash head said:


> Some questions re elements
> 1 is there a way of calculating how much heat an element will deliver to a liquid based on its wattage or is the density more important.
> 2 are people using a variable resistor to control the heat out put or just switching them on and off (via controller)at full power.
> The idea of controlling mash temps with electricity appeal because of the accuracy you can achieve.


1. Not sure. Water requires a specific amount of energy to gain 1C per unit time. It should be a fairly simple formula using the element wattage (minus some losses) but I've never looked into it. 

2. You won't find a variable resistor to control an element in the power range required for a RIMS. I intend on a predictive computer driven on/off system, many others use PID controllers (also on/off). You could also use a Variac, but that would require manual adjustment to get your desired temp (not out of the question, but it would be a full time job keeping an eye on it). There are other methods of AC power control too, PWM being one. But essentially the same problem as with the variac. Probably more useful to throttle the pump as you don't need to control the flow with huge degrees of accuracy.

HTH


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## 431neb (26/4/14)

What have I done? I just purchased a KK heat stick with the idea of doing RIMs in my 50 litre keg MLT. 

Are the KK heat sticks still shit or have they been improved? 

Sorry to wake up an old thread, I think this is the best place for my questions.

Also, before I get my head around buying the right PID (I can see that will be a steep learning curve for me ), can I control the heat stick with an appropriately reprogrammed STC 1000? ie Set the delays to minimum and let it turn the stick on and off (a lot I'm guessing) in order to maintain an appropriate temperature?

Apologies for the noob RIMS questions but I can see I'm in the right place for an expert "answer".



Edit to remove smutty inuendo that might prevent me from getting a useful response. I can't help myself.


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## pilgrimspiss (26/4/14)

I just put two of the KK elements in my boil kettle. Looks good to me. I've completed 5 brews across them with no problems. I'm running two burst fire style controllers (AC 220V 4000W SCR Motor Speed Controller Voltage Regulator) on them in case I had scorching issues, but they are sweet so far and no scorching. I clean them after each boil. Ever only get a slight calcification on them. Just wipes off. 

I've built a custom RIMS tube with a 3600W element in the bottom controlled by PID for my small brew rig....it cranks, with no scorching. As long as the flow rate is decent (I use a LBP). Ramp time for MLT from 18C to 55C is about 10 minutes. 55C to any mash temp or mash out is about 5 minutes.

Good Luck!
Matty


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## 431neb (26/4/14)

Thanks Matty. The voltage regulators are just manually set? So you can turn them down to prevent scorching and/or control your boil?

Is that like these?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2000W-220V-AC-SCR-Electric-Voltage-Regulator-Motor-Speed-Control-Controller-/310912807808?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4863d8f380&_uhb=1

For those that don't click on the link above I thought I would include this classic quote from the ebay advert.

*"This controller uses novel bi-directional high-power SCR. It can be very convenient adjust the current up to 25A, and solve the over current problem of the heating wire resistance is too small in the case of cooling causing good."*


And Matty (or anyone), if I still have your attention. Can I run one of those heatsticks on an STC? I wanna brew tomorrow.

I think I'm gonna have a crack. If it gets fried it's not a huge expense.

Also, do the PIDs have the ability to regulate voltage as well?


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## pilgrimspiss (26/4/14)

431neb said:


> Thanks Matty. The voltage regulators are just manually set? So you can turn them down to prevent scorching and/or control your boil?
> 
> Is that like these?
> 
> ...


Yep thats them. Make sure you get the correct wattage output though. Your's will be 2200W. The 2000W one would probably run it slightly less than boiling but don't quote me. I got 4000w each output to be sure Yes you just turn the knob up and down for hotter or colder pretty much. I only did that for the boil kettle though as the RIMS element is controlled by the PID.

SCR = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon-controlled_rectifier

Yes you could run it off an STC they just aren't as accurate so i'm led to believe. If you run it with another thermometer in your mash you should be able to adjust for any discrepancies . Wire your STC to a plug outlet in a box might be the go. Put it in a jiffy box or a tupperware container if your not worried about little ones getting into it. ( I attached a photo of mine, that's how I heat / run my HLT)

You will have way less chance of burning it out in a RIMS situation as it will pulse on and off to maintain temperature. I don't think PID's ramp voltage up and down I think they pulse on/off like an STC just way faster. Not 100% sure. someone smarter than myself may have to chime in. 

Cheers
Matty


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## pilgrimspiss (26/4/14)

If your using the STC with a RIMS tube you may have to stuff around with the STC probe in a thermowell at the RIMS outlet somehow. Most PID's with a PT100 probe are threaded and you can screw the probe into the tube in direct contact with wort. The STC probe is a hard wired plastic probe. I used a stainless thermowell on my HLT. 

Cheers 
Matty


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## 431neb (26/4/14)

Awesome stuff. Thanks fella.

I fitted the heat stick to my MLT earlier tonight. Luckily I had exactly the right size knockout punch for the stick.

It sits bloody high in the mash tun though ( I'm not going down the rims tube path as you can tell), so I'll need a lot of wort under the false bottom before I even start to wet out the mash. Seems like my batch sparges are gonna get smaller. I've been contemplating fly sparging so I hope I have enough volume left for a useful one.


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## 431neb (28/4/14)

Quick update.

I installed the KK heat stick and used it to ramp to strike temp using an STC. I set the compressor delay to the minimum (.3 degrees) and shoved the probe into a thermowell that is fitted in the side of the keg opposite the outlet (with the KK heat stick in-between). Long story short the KK element holds a bit of heat so the ramp overshot by about 2 degrees. That was just in water. I can compensate for that and I did , but mash behaved a bit differently (surprise! duh), so there was some turning on and off manually to tweak temps. I was only aiming for a single infusion mash but because I was circulating I was losing temp so I had to stir around the stick at one stage to prevent scorching. There wasn't a trace of scorching on the stick by the way. I was surprised at that because it ran for about 5 mins of full tilt while immersed in the mash grist and all.

I haven't organised a falsie yet but I noticed that 13 litres of water is only barely over the heat stick. That means that when I'm doing single batches (rare) I'll have to use a lot of strike water relative to the amount of grist in order to keep a little space between the stick and the falsie. I'm starting to get a feel for why a RIMs tube seems to be the most popular way of making this happen. Never mind , I have a 32mm hole in my mash tun now that needs using so I'll battle on. She'll be right.


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## The Gas Man (8/5/14)

I have just did my first couple of batches using my new keg king rims and element. I am currently using a keg king temperature controller to control rims /mash temp. The temp probe is mounted at the outlet do the rims. The trouble is that when the element turns on it always overshoots by as much as 5c, despite a relatively constant mash pump flow. I have adjusted the hysteresis and delay times but no improvement.

With a set point of 68c the rims outlet probe is reading up to 73c but the temp in the mash itself is only about 63c. Obviously I'm not to thrilled with this control and I'm thinking about ditching the kk controllers for a proper Uberins pid and rtd sensor.

Any other thoughts on how to improve this process control?


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## The Gas Man (14/5/14)

Where would be the best spot to measure / control the mash temp?


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## Cocko (14/5/14)

The hottest point is where your conversion will be happening, so in essence - In your RIMS tube, out let makes the easiest and most sense.

DO NOT run your temp controller from your grain bed and ignore the HX - in any system.

Again, you want your hottest point to be you monitor, this is where conversions will happen, so at the outlet of the HX is best.

Cheers


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## Icewind (15/9/14)

Looking to go single vessel rims myself. I presume i will need a pump to recirculate the mash back to the top of the vessel. Would this be an appropriate pump to use: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Water-Pump-8L-m-12V-Food-Grade-100C-212F-High-Temperature-127GPH-for-sous-vide-/111354315384?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ed3c0278&_uhb=1


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## verysupple (7/10/14)

I have one that I think is the same (but with threaded connections) and when I walked in to the LHBS and said,

"... and I also want to get one of those brown 12 V pumps."

they said,

"No, you don't"

"Why? Are they that bad?"

"Well..."

Then I explained that I only wanted it to recirc cold water through my immersion chiller and they said it was fine for that. But it sounded like anything requiring a bit more grunt or higher temps wasn't a great idea.

I've also read other threads where people have tried to use them for recirculating mash systems and they upgraded pretty quickly to either a Kaixin or March pump. If you search here I'm sure you'll find plenty of reports of their suitability for different tasks. If it's the pump I think it is then it's commonly known as a "Little Brown Pump" of LBP.


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## JDW81 (13/7/15)

I've been running a RIMS for the last few brews now, and process wise its all sweet. I'm getting good efficiency, no scorching, good ramp times and no leaks (now I've replaced the shitty QDs with camlocks).

I've been wondering what others do with the residual wort in their system? Do you count it is MLT dead space and write it off or return it to the mash?

This is what my system currently looks like (I'm still waiting on for finances to allow a tiered stand with casters).





Cheers,

JD

Edit: Sorry about the sideways picture, haven't got the time this morning to solve that problem.


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## MastersBrewery (13/7/15)

JDW81 said:


> I've been running a RIMS for the last few brews now, and process wise its all sweet. I'm getting good efficiency, no scorching, good ramp times and no leaks (now I've replaced the shitty QDs with camlocks).
> 
> I've been wondering what others do with the residual wort in their system? Do you count it is MLT dead space and write it off or return it to the mash?
> 
> ...


when changing hoses use a small stainless jug to drain hoses into and add to the kettle. The simple things are sometimes the easiest to overlook.


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## fraser_john (13/7/15)

JDW81 said:


> I've been running a RIMS for the last few brews now, and process wise its all sweet. I'm getting good efficiency, no scorching, good ramp times and no leaks (now I've replaced the shitty QDs with camlocks).
> 
> I've been wondering what others do with the residual wort in their system? Do you count it is MLT dead space and write it off or return it to the mash?
> 
> ...


Dump it. Towards the end of sparging into kettle, my system tends to let small particles through as the wort drains through the false bottom, once I start to see this I tend to stop the sparge and dump about 2 litres of wort.

I just account for it in the calculations.


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## seamad (13/7/15)

I have a ball valve on the rims tube entry, close it off and then connect sparge water. When finished a 5l jug under to drain out.


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## mfeighan (13/7/15)

i fly sparge and just connect my hlt hose to where my mlt hose was so the leftovers in the tube etc are just water by the end of it so i dont care and just empty it


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## JDW81 (13/7/15)

Cheers Lads. I don't like to waste wort so I think I'll go with the collect and return method for the time being.

JD


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## DJ_L3ThAL (1/10/15)

Cocko said:


> The hottest point is where your conversion will be happening, so in essence - In your RIMS tube, out let makes the easiest and most sense.
> 
> DO NOT run your temp controller from your grain bed and ignore the HX - in any system.
> 
> ...


Necro here... I am being patient for 5-10mins of *slow* recircing after mashing in to let the grain bed settle and turning the RIMS element on, but the temperature inside the mash tun drops a couple degrees lower than the desired mash temp. To counter this and ensure the centre of the mash is at the actual mash temp I crank my STC temp slightly above the desired temp to get a faster ramp of the mash tun back to desired temp. Does this mean for that period the conversion is happening at the higher temp of my RIMS outlet??? Might be in for some more fuller bodied beers than expected from my first few batches on the new rig.

I would have thought the sheer bulk temp of the mash tun in the centre would govern what temp conversion is occurring at more so, because also the short distance of the RIMS tube return to the top of the mash would equalise as it mixes back in to the main mash only slightly higher as it ramps up to temp?

Would the best way be a dual temp control method where the mash tun and RIMS tube outlet are measured and controlled so that the RIMS knows to ramp, within reason so as to not overheat, but also keeps going until the mash tun step temp is reached? As I find with an STC measuring the RIMS outlet temp it would take way too long to do a mash step leaving the STC set to the actual desired mash temp. The lowish flow rate takes a while to completely exchanged the entire mash volume through the RIMS tube. I will measure the flow next brew day.

Finally I have similar return setup to the Blichmann auto sparge (just without the float valve), which stirs the top of the mash. I appear to need to keep this return flow low as well to stop channelling as a higher flow tends to dig out the top of the mash directly below where the return comes in. Or is this not actually "channeling" per say and just an uneven top mash surface? No measured efficiency issues so perhaps it is a non-issue??


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## Adr_0 (2/10/15)

Essentially all of what's in your mash will move over the RIMS element and temp sensor, so all of the liquor will be exposed to that temp. 

Your drop in temp in the mash is likely because you have cold spots, and you just need to mix/wait for everything to come up to temperature. The best way to tells this is where your PID output (%sent to the element) goes to a steady 1-5%, ie the temp going into the tube is equal to the set point. 

A temp probe in the middle of the mash can helps with this too. 

I think your answer is in flowrates (increase) rather than bumping the temp up. I think a degree or two would be fine (won't notice difference in body) but more than this you might.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (2/10/15)

Thanks for the detailed response. I did have a battle with my mill setting first two brews when I went 3V. Blindly reduced the gap setting to credit card thickness and that resulted in stuck recirc mash/piss poor flow and worried me about scorching my wort trying to step temps. Next brew will try nearing on full flow and see how that goes. Got an insulated mash tun and 10A RIMS element so there is no real reason I shouldn't be able to easily maintain temps and step at a reasonable speed.

Anyone got comment on the mash return "digging" into the top of the mash? Should I bother worrying about it if there doesn't seem to be any loss of efficiency? Thinking a higher flow rate will exacerbate the issue. Photo of what I'm referring to attached.


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## adzr (8/8/16)

Some fantastic ideas and information here. I have an idea in an attempt to eliminate the need to fabricate or buy a RIMS tube (the one at Keg King is over $200), but wanted some feedback to see whether this is likely to cause scorching of the wort.

Basically instead of having the heating element within the circulation pipe/hose, have it at the bottom of the mashtun under the false bottom. The temperature controller can either be in line within the hose/pipe, or just hanging over the side of the mashtun (this would be even easier and cheaper). The grains are contained within a grain bag to aid clean up and to keep them away from the heating element.

Note this is a diagram only. It is not to scale and things aren't in the exact place they would be normally (eg. pump needs to be lower than the mashtun if it's not self priming).

My key concern is if the flow of wort over the element is quick enough to ensure any loose grain particles that have escaped out of the bag don't get burnt. Any feedback on this concept would be greatly appreciated!


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