# Vb Hop Schedule Please



## dougsbrew (15/2/11)

hi, i am having a go at making a VB tommorow. 
it will be a 20 litre brew, heres my grain bill - 
3.6kg B.B. Ale malt, 
300g B.B. Wheat malt. 
i will be using swiss lager yeast and POR hops. 
i'm not sure on what hop schedule to use . 
at moment thinking 60m-9g, 30m-9g, 15m-4g.


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## MHB (15/2/11)

Iso Hop to 16-18 IBU After Lagering!

MHB


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## unrealeous (15/2/11)

Looking forward to this thread developing into the standard bashing of aussie lagers. Not beer - but made from beer.

"...And there is a step where you have to urinate in it - can't call if it was before or after pitching the yeast"


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## bum (15/2/11)

Pretty sure that's already been done with the correct answer.


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## dougsbrew (15/2/11)

unrealeous said:


> Looking forward to this thread developing into the standard bashing of aussie lagers. Not beer - but made from beer.
> 
> "...And there is a step where you have to urinate in it - can't call if it was before or after pitching the yeast"




yes, i am expecting that, but you have to remember that its one of australias highest selling beers(most liked).


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## bum (15/2/11)

dougsbrew said:


> yes, i am expecting that, but you have to remember that its one of australias highest selling beers(most liked).


Why do you present that as some sort of potential defence to future attacks upon its quality?


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## dougsbrew (15/2/11)

bum said:


> Why do you present that as some sort of potential defence to future attacks upon its quality?



is your suggestion that vb is of poor quality. the remark is not so much of a defence, more of a fact.


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## argon (15/2/11)

dougsbrew said:


> hi, i am having a go at making a VB tommorow.
> it will be a 20 litre brew, heres my grain bill -
> 3.6kg B.B. Ale malt,
> 300g B.B. Wheat malt.
> ...



In lieu of bitching about how people consider VB, I'd suggest, since you already have some POR, try a single bittering addition to 18IBU as MHB suggested. Works out around 14 grams (@9.8% AA) for your grain bill.


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## Yob (15/2/11)

dougsbrew said:


> most liked




sure it is skips love it


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## bum (15/2/11)

dougsbrew said:


> is your suggestion that vb is of poor quality. the remark is not so much of a defence, more of a fact.


The statement is fact-like but the context makes it defense-ish.

My suggestion is not that VB is of poor quality (although my _opinion_ is that it is of poor quality). My suggestion is that you've pretty much already got your answer and there's nothing left for this thread apart from you being told to search for the hundreds of other threads where people answered this question seriously (average answer would prob be table sugar where you've got wheat and a single bittering addition of POR to MHB's IBU ball-park, mash low) or people shit-canning the beer (as already pointed out by unrealeous).

But seriously, you thought you were the first person who wanted to make VB and the answer wouldn't be here already? I mean, it is the best and most popular beer in the country, after all!

[EDIT: added quote for clarity]


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## WarmBeer (15/2/11)

dougsbrew said:


> hi, i am having a go at making a VB tommorow.
> it will be a 20 litre brew, heres my grain bill -
> 3.6kg B.B. Ale malt,
> 300g B.B. Wheat malt.
> ...


I regularly do a very similar beer, but add about 5% sugar, and cara-pils instead of the wheat malt.

What you are making will taste nothing like VB, but it will be a fantastic beer!

Pride of Ringwood is a very under-appreciated hop. If you can get the flowers (check with Beerbelly.com.au) it's even better.


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## dougsbrew (15/2/11)

WarmBeer said:


> I regularly do a very similar beer, but add about 5% sugar, and cara-pils instead of the wheat malt.
> 
> What you are making will taste nothing like VB, but it will be a fantastic beer!
> 
> Pride of Ringwood is a very under-appreciated hop. If you can get the flowers (check with Beerbelly.com.au) it's even better.




thanx for that, what hop schedule do you use with POR. ie. more at start of boil or end?


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## seemax (15/2/11)

I've tried Warmbeer's aussie lager clone, using both pellet and fresh POR - the fresh wins by a mile and has a unique, appealing flavour. 

If I was using pellets it would be a single 60min addition only .. and use some sugar too.


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## Effect (15/2/11)

word on the street says that fat yak and vb have the same IBUs. I would shoot for 25-28 IBUs with a single 60 min addition. 5% sugar is a good idea as well.

Also, ferment higher than ideal with that lager yeast...this is a mass produced beer, also filter it if you can.

Cheers
Phil


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## Nashmandu (15/2/11)

dougsbrew said:


> thanx for that, what hop schedule do you use with POR. ie. more at start of boil or end?




Mate....What sort of question is that, i dont mean too discourage questions though!.........Your question has already been answered. VB ''clone'' only needs bittering, this has been made clear. Why would you use late additions? Aroma/Flavour? I think not.

You are overcomplicating things with 'hop schedule". The majority of aussie commercial lagers are brewed using high grav methods, watered down and bittered during filtration....there is no 'hop schedule'

And just to clarify hopping basics

Beginning of boil = bitterness
Late in boil = Flavour
End of boil = Aroma


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## MHB (15/2/11)

VB isn't a beer I enjoy, but I try not to confuse my opinion of a beer with the technical expertise that goes into the making of it. The major brewers are very good at doing something that is difficult and demanding i.e. making exactly the same beer batch after batch from ingredients that change all the time.

There is a reasonable argument that a brewer's ability is best measured by their ability to not make a good beer, but to make the same beer again and again..... reproducibility being the term.

If you visit the brewery in Melbourne and have a look at the flowchart that shows the production process you will see it clearly shows the bitterness being added post fermentation (well it did last time I was there).

We as home brewers can learn a lot from big brewers; fortunately we can take the bits that help us make the beer we want, not the beer they want us to like. But it would be a mistake to confuse the beer they make with their skill as brewers.

MHb


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## unrealeous (15/2/11)

Nashmandu said:


> The majority of aussie commercial lagers are brewed using high grav methods, watered down and bittered during filtration....there is no 'hop schedule'


I don't believe this is true. Just because a brewery use high gravity doesn't mean they don't have a hop schedule - the addition of ISO hops at the end of the process is normally a bitterness adjustment (although it can be large one up to 70%).


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## dougsbrew (15/2/11)

Nashmandu said:


> Mate....What sort of question is that, i dont mean too discourage questions though!.........Your question has already been answered. VB ''clone'' only needs bittering, this has been made clear. Why would you use late additions? Aroma/Flavour? I think not.
> 
> You are overcomplicating things with 'hop schedule". The majority of aussie commercial lagers are brewed using high grav methods, watered down and bittered during filtration....there is no 'hop schedule'
> 
> ...


i think i should change my original question. i am attempting a brew with vb like flavour, not exact copy. 
so to rephrase - 
what would be good hop schedule to get the most out of POR for my recipe resulting in a taste similar to VB. 
i am using POR pellets at 10AA.


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## Nashmandu (15/2/11)

unrealeous said:


> I don't believe this is true. Just because a brewery use high gravity doesn't mean they don't have a hop schedule - the addition of ISO hops at the end of the process is normally a bitterness adjustment (although it can be large one up to 70%).



Ok so there might be a iso addition during boil aswell..

Its all about IBU's


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## jonocarroll (15/2/11)

dougsbrew said:


> what would be good hop schedule to get the most out of POR for my recipe resulting in a taste similar to VB.
> i am using POR pellets at 10AA.


This was a simple schedule that turned out very popular;

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=908

YMMV.


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## Acasta (15/2/11)

Mate, if thats what you wanna do then go for it. 
I would suggest a single bittering addition at 60min, for your batch around 15-20g depending on the IBUs you want.
I doubt there is much flavor hops in there/


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## Nashmandu (15/2/11)

dougsbrew said:


> i think i should change my original question. i am attempting a brew with vb like flavour, not exact copy.
> so to rephrase -
> what would be good hop schedule to get the most out of POR for my recipe resulting in a taste similar to VB.
> i am using POR pellets at 10AA.




Ok so too answer the question I will HAVE to disregard anything to do with VB..

To make a beer out of any hop one has to know what you want the outcome to be. If I were to brew an aussie lager using POR, I would Bitter to a level that was just percievable, say 15-20 IBU's and maybe a small addition at 15 minutes for a hint of flavour/aroma. 

There are two parts to your question - The first is "how to get the most out of POR" and then "a beer tasting similar to VB"......These two things shouldnt be explored in the same beer. Hop character in VB is little to none. Therefor you are simply using hops/isohops for reasons more related to beer stability, structure and perhaps some balance. Basically the core reasons hops are used in beer in the first place. So If you want to make a beer like VB, Just add hops at 60 mins .... IBU's 15-25......If you want to taste POR then use more liberally throughout boil, but the resulting beer will be more of an aussie Pale ale in its hop character.


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## megs80 (15/2/11)

Hi,
Id only add a 60 min addition although with the australian ale I make I also add a mash hop addition. Also I think adding some raw sugar or mashing low around 64 is a goo idea. I type in some numbers below.

Cheers


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## dougsbrew (15/2/11)

thanx for replies to help refine my recipe. this is where its at now. 
3.6kg B.B. Ale malt, 
300g B.B. Wheat malt. 
200g dextrose. 
swiss lager yeast.
hop schedule - 
POR 60min-16g, 10min-5g. ibu21.


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## Bribie G (15/2/11)

Fosters on their website (haven't looked for a while) state that the hops are added on the way to the packing line. Their hop extracts are produced at a factory in Melbourne. AFAIK they are not _just_ isohop but contain flavour and aroma elements as well. For example Oettinger from Germany is pleasantly hoppy but the label announces "hopsextract" so extracts aint extracts. Melbourne Bitter has a bit of hop character that it does not share with VB but according to a forum member who knows, they are the same beer but "dressed" differently with caramel and hops after filtering and this is fairly apparent on tasting. 

So POR should just about get you there as it will impart a bit of flavour even after 60 mins.
Use 600g of white cane sugar to approximate their 30% of fermentables from white sugar.

And if you have time and money, get yourself a pack of Wyeast Danish Lager yeast which is apparently closer to CUB yeast than S-189.
For a trial run, US-05 fermented cool would produce a clean batch as well. 
Personally I'd lose the wheat.


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## DKS (15/2/11)

I agree, no wheat and + 500gms sugar or dex. You want need the late addition either. POR is powerful stuff.
Daz


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## Tony (15/2/11)

sawp the ale for pilsner malt
use dextrose to about 10%
POR at 60 min to about 20 ibu
no late hops
mash at 63 to 64
Im not sure how to get the carlton yeast skunk thing happening........ which is most of the flavour i think. I have never been able to replicate that.

good luck


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## Bribie G (15/2/11)

Tony, I think it is in the yeast. XXXX gets that twang as well, which I liken to "mouse" - if you have ever known anyone who kept pet mice in cages, that's the faint whiff you get in their room and it's a fleeting aftertaste you get with VB or XXXX, up the back of the nose when you breathe out through the nose after the first swig. 
On the other hand you don't get it with the locally brewed BUL such as Becks and Carlsberg. Now I bet the megas don't import their base malt from Gemany or Denmark - so the base ingredients are probably local and by elimination it would have to be the yeast.


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## TidalPete (15/2/11)

A lot of the previous poster's give you good info as per your original & amended posts dougsbrew but for the very life of me I can't comprehend why anyone in their right mind who has access to all the excellent information on this forum would want to imitate that dog's dribble when there are so many excellent beers to be had out there? "Shakes head sadly"   
Better to give the homebrewing game away altogether, save all those $$$'s buying gear, & just pick up your favourite carton of megaswill every payday.

TP


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## winkle (15/2/11)

DKS said:


> I agree, no wheat and + 500gms sugar or dex. You want need the late addition either. POR is powerful stuff.
> Daz



:icon_offtopic: 
Putting a lager into this years BABBs comp are we Daz?


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## MHB (15/2/11)

Not just the yeast, even if you were given that (and I know brewers who have used the strains from the big guys) you wont get the same beer.

Brewing in a 50-60 meter high conical is going to change the way the yeast works, at 50 meters from P=_gdh_ g 9.81, d say 1.050, h 50 m your looking at a pressure of over 500kPa; that will affect the yeast and change the fusels and esters it throws.


There are more differences between home brew and commercial brewing than just the ingredients.
MHB


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## matho (15/2/11)

Tony said:


> sawp the ale for pilsner malt
> use dextrose to about 10%
> POR at 60 min to about 20 ibu
> no late hops
> ...


Ooh I know s23 fermented at 17 deg, I tried it on my last brew and it has come out with that exact yeasty flavor 

Cheers matho


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## Tony (15/2/11)

matho said:


> Ooh I know s23 fermented at 17 deg, I tried it on my last brew and it has come out with that exact yeasty flavor



Ooooo yes your right...... s23 would be perfect!

i used it once and hated it!


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## schooey (15/2/11)

:icon_offtopic: 

Back in the day when I brewed K&K and thought Tooheys Draught was the ducks nuts, I brewed a can of Tooheys Draught and a kilo of sugaazzzz, along with a bit of DME and pitched it with S23. Due to an unexpected o/s abscence, it sat on the tuckerbox freeer in our laundry for about 10 weeks at all sorts of temperature fluctuations. Funnily enough, I bottled it and it turned out very clean; no skunkiness at all...


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## dougsbrew (15/2/11)

TidalPete said:


> A lot of the previous poster's give you good info as per your original & amended posts dougsbrew but for the very life of me I can't comprehend why anyone in their right mind who has access to all the excellent information on this forum would want to imitate that dog's dribble when there are so many excellent beers to be had out there? "Shakes head sadly"
> Better to give the homebrewing game away altogether, save all those $$$'s buying gear, & just pick up your favourite carton of megaswill every payday.
> 
> TP



if i was able to make that dogs dribble as you refer to it as, id be a rich man. ive been home brewing for a long time and love it with no plans to give the game away, only to improve through trail and error and sharing info, asking questoins such as on this AHB website. i appreciate all those helpful tips that i have received.


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## pmash (15/2/11)

TidalPete said:


> A lot of the previous poster's give you good info as per your original & amended posts dougsbrew but for the very life of me I can't comprehend why anyone in their right mind who has access to all the excellent information on this forum would want to imitate that dog's dribble when there are so many excellent beers to be had out there? "Shakes head sadly"
> Better to give the homebrewing game away altogether, save all those $$$'s buying gear, & just pick up your favourite carton of megaswill every payday.
> 
> TP


I'm sorry but I have to agree. You can't polish a turd , and why would you want to ? As TP suggests, if you have the equipment to explore fresh, exciting new tastes , let the mega swillers do their stuff and get on with yours, the very reason you joined this site I suggest, to make better beer. No offence intended, 

cheers


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## dent (15/2/11)

I have had excellent results using Super Pride rather than regular POR - it brews an excellent Australian lager. If you use a chiller, a 60 minute addition will still provide copious aroma for the style. 

I would also agree with the posters suggesting Pilsner malt. It has as very agreeable character compared to the no-character that ale malt in a lager tends to have.


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## mh971 (15/2/11)

I used to drink buckets of the stuff, can't remember last time I had one, but many posts above make me think of comment my father once said to me while we were discussing beer.

"There's no such thing as a bad beer, just some you might not choose to buy". 

I reckon this somes it up. 

I can't stand the look of many cars on the market, but does my not liking them make them bad aesthetically, apparently not, some experienced designer designed it for mass appeal, someone made it and many people buy them and continue to love them.

I say make your VBish clone using what wisdom you can gleen from this site, and once perfected enter it in a few competitions. It would be interesting to see how it went.

If it were a wine it might have a label produced by dedicated copywriters something like

Beautifully contained bitterness, slight hints of aroma apparent only for the most dedicated afficonado with a keen sensitivity. A single malt, single infusion mash, uncoloured by blending as is found with the finest spirits, and fermented with a strain of 100year old danish yeast. A joy of minimalist brewing utilising proudly Australian Hops. Enjoy now with friends.

Put in a green bottle with a nice craftbrewery style label and would be interesting to see how it was percieved.


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## bum (16/2/11)

Mick71 said:


> I used to drink buckets of the stuff, can't remember last time I had one, but many posts above make me think of comment my father once said to me while we were discussing beer.
> 
> "There's no such thing as a bad beer, just some you might not choose to buy".


Tell your dad I said he's a dickhead. Plenty of unbalanced, routinely infected beers on the market. Shit beer - no question. Given th context I should point out that VB is never sold infected, of course.


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## Nick JD (16/2/11)

34/70 quite warm produces mercaptan for that VB "sewer" taste. I did a too-early diacetyl rest on a carlton clone once and it was there. 

Getting the last drop of flavour from the PoR still eludes me. 

But that doesn't really matter now though - I'd rather chase tastier rainbows.


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## unrealeous (16/2/11)

bum said:


> Tell your dad I said he's a dickhead.


AHB's resident troll has spoken.


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## bum (16/2/11)

Bullshit. It is a patently stupid statement. As if there aren't shit beers.


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## unrealeous (16/2/11)

Mick71 said:


> "There's no such thing as a bad beer, just some you might not choose to buy".


Its along the same lines as "Beer always tastes better when its free".

So go easy on your insults champ.


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## bum (16/2/11)

You called me a troll for saying something I mean. Go easy on the advice you ignore yourself, boss.


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## megs80 (16/2/11)

Yeah anyway, we all agree tha VB is not our drink of choice. Lets get back on track. I rather drink a VB with good mates than a pliny with dickheads.

I agree that if you need to buy your base malt it might be best to use pilsner over ale. I still reckon using some raw sugar over all dex and mashing real low. I like the idea of fermenting at a higher temp 17. Maybe that would replecate the results of the pressures in the big fermenters. Dont know but worth a try.


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## manticle (16/2/11)

megs80 said:


> I rather drink a VB with good mates than a pliny with dickheads.



Have you met my mate Ken? Ken A?

He's a good man Ken.


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## [email protected] (16/2/11)

I alway use to hear the saying " There is no such thing as crap beer, just different levels of greatness! "


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## Sammus (16/2/11)

It also gets said about music... "No shit music, just music you like and the other kind".

BS, I agree with bum on every count.


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## schooey (16/2/11)

My old man always says "The best beer is your next one". Took me a while to appreciate that; not so bullet proof anymore


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## stux (16/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Tony, I think it is in the yeast. XXXX gets that twang as well, which I liken to "mouse" - if you have ever known anyone who kept pet mice in cages, that's the faint whiff you get in their room and it's a fleeting aftertaste you get with VB or XXXX, up the back of the nose when you breathe out through the nose after the first swig.
> On the other hand you don't get it with the locally brewed BUL such as Becks and Carlsberg. Now I bet the megas don't import their base malt from Gemany or Denmark - so the base ingredients are probably local and by elimination it would have to be the yeast.



Yes, and that's the primary reason I don't like "Aussie beer"

I always thought it tasted a bit like stale washing water, and you get that mouse whiff in some English beers too


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## stux (16/2/11)

bum said:


> Bullshit. It is a patently stupid statement. As if there aren't shit beers.



Yes, some beers might actually be contaminated and unsafe to drink, that would be a bad bad beer. 


Thus there are bad beers and dad was wrong, but maybe not a dickhead

QED


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## Jimboley (16/2/11)

Mick71 said:


> I used to drink buckets of the stuff, can't remember last time I had one, but many posts above make me think of comment my father once said to me while we were discussing beer.
> 
> "There's no such thing as a bad beer, just some you might not choose to buy".
> 
> ...



:icon_offtopic: 

Absolutely!! I couldn't agree more with you! 

I've been thinking about bottling up a Carlton Draught in one of my bottles and testing it out at the next brew meeting. h34r:


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## mh971 (16/2/11)

Amazing how looking at things from a different angle and expressing it can stir some into a frenzy of blah.

I am always amazed at how most people (including me at times) can have an almost absolute fanatical belief that something they don't like is shit. 

All the man asked for was some legitimate help on making a beer that tastes like VB. I read it to see the actual answer and chucked in a post that I thought might get some hilarious answers. Which it did.

Bum, any infected beer is a shit beer, not quite the angle the line is making. 

So how do we make VB then?


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## bum (16/2/11)

Mick71 said:


> Amazing how looking at things from a different angle and expressing it can stir some into a frenzy of blah.
> ...
> Bum, any infected beer is a shit beer, not quite the angle the line is making.



Just thought I'd cut out the middle so that your hypocrisy is better illuminated. There are tonnes of routinely infected commercial beers unleashed upon the market and the breweries regularly describe these flaws as features. They are shit beers. SHIT BEERS. People might like them but that doesn't stop them from being shit. Bringing these beers up is entirely relevant to the statement "there's no such thing as a shit beer" so I'm completely comfortable with the angle of the dangle.


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## mh971 (16/2/11)

bum said:


> Just thought I'd cut out the middle so that your hypocrisy is better illuminated. There are tonnes of routinely infected commercial beers unleashed upon the market and the breweries regularly describe these flaws as features. They are shit beers. SHIT BEERS. People might like them but that doesn't stop them from being shit. Bringing these beers up is entirely relevant to the statement "there's no such thing as a shit beer" so I'm completely comfortable with the angle of the dangle.



Bum I think you just made my point.

Mate we should start a new thread for this one, it has potential to go on for while. Can't remember seeing any threads that got you quite so animated.


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## bum (16/2/11)

My best guess for that would be that you might only look in this forum. I'm being reasonably docile here, Mick, as I am sure some others may attest.

I would like to know though, how have I made your point? You glibly say "of course infected beers are shit" like it is irrelevant and then you somehow claim that my assertion that infections aren't irrelevant in relation to commercial beers proves your point that infections shouldn't count. The mind truly does boggle (and I've just picked up an 8-letter word).


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## mh971 (16/2/11)

Bum,

Ok I wasn't counting speedie's threads though. I'm smiling during this whole conversation.

I think Shit is subjective

You think Shit is objective

I can agree it can be both. I agree any infected beer is shit. And I agree there a beers I really prefer not to drink and I think are shit (blonde this, dry that, hahn anything) but are they really shit or do I just not like them. 

My original point and the one my old man was trying to get across to me many, many moons ago when I thought I had a monoply on being correct and would fight to prove it is that just because we don't like something doesn't mean somebody else shouldn't either. 

It was never meant to encompass infected or light struck beers or mishandled beers it's just about what a bloke likes. 

Taste is and always will be largely subjective, with a few potentially objective components. For example I think anyone who likes aniseed must be half freaking alien, arguably anyone who likes it cannot have a palate or taste sensations remotely similar to mine, the chemicals obviously do different things to our brains. So if a bloke truly likes VB and could not be swayed because that's what he likes it doesn't make him a dickhead (BTW my old man, not a fan of VB) 

The point you made for me was that people can be fanatical about what's shit. I think you would agree you are fanatical about what is shit.

I think we agree. No?


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## mh971 (16/2/11)

P.S. i have never used the word Glib before, I must work that into my vocabulary.

Yep and you got me, I hypocritically 'blah'ed at you looking at things differently to me. Bugger


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## Nashmandu (16/2/11)

Mick71 said:


> Bum,
> 
> Ok I wasn't counting speedie's threads though. I'm smiling during this whole conversation.
> 
> ...



I think I have a man crush, your diplomacy is infectious.....and what you are saying is very true....although that could just be my opinion, subjection opinion....


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## mh971 (16/2/11)

Cheers mate, lose that crush though, **** if liking VB hits three pages Man Love is gonna earn you six.

I can be as grumpy an arsehole as anyone, and i bet there are plenty of real people who think i can be a real prick. but this forum is surely about learning and helping people not rubbishing them for their tastes. 

I'm just not prepared to ditch too hard on someone I don't know (well most of the time). I normally prefer to save that until I know em, know they are smaller than me, know they are likely to pike first, and aren't a lunatic who collects ears.


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## jonocarroll (16/2/11)

Mick71 said:


> It was never meant to encompass infected or light struck beers or mishandled beers it's just about what a bloke likes.


There are beers made and sold with full intention, not accidentally ruined, that are shit. Watery, foul-tasting crap that doesn't deserve to be called beer. This isn't "well, West End Draught has a funky flavour I don't particularly like" [preference], or "I find 'blue cheese' and 'stinky tofu' gross" [personal taste], this is 3-year-old's-attempt-at-breakfast-made-with-mud bad [shit].

The fact that some people may enjoy these shit beers doesn't mean that the beers aren't shit, it means that some people enjoy shit beers just like some kids eat dirt. Do they enjoy them better than craft beers? Harder so say.


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## mh971 (16/2/11)

Must get back to real brewing converastions.


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## mh971 (17/2/11)

QB, 

last post being typed before yours read.

I see you are with Bum on this.

Did you read DrS posted article on another forum on why people drink ridiculously hi hopped beers. It starts out as dick measuring, I'm an individual who can handle this stuff sort of attitude of exclusivity, then their tastes adjust and they begin to like it. Bit like eating Chilli.

I now like Blue Cheeses, in my 20's I hated it, same with neat single malt whiskey, this is a recognised phenomenon of how our palate degrades with age and loses the sugar receptors and begins to favour bitter and sour tastes . 

Beer is similar, whilst still young I reckon our palates find bitterness offensive, as we grow older or develop our palate by experience it becomes a pleasure, so super hoppy and aromatic beers become more pleasurable. Doesn't mean a very plain beer is bad. And maybe even a plain infected beer can seem ok to some.

Are you now trolling me for fun.

I'm out of this one.


----------



## jonocarroll (17/2/11)

Mick71 said:


> Did you read DrS posted article on another forum on why people drink ridiculously hi hopped beers. It starts out as dick measuring, I'm an individual who can handle this stuff sort of attitude of exclusivity, then their tastes adjust and they begin to like it. Bit like eating Chilli.


No, I read this forum. While that may be the case for some, I certainly didn't take that route. My love of highly-hopped beers came from tasting them and loving them, not from others opinions of my ability to drink them. What was your point?



Mick71 said:


> I now like Blue Cheeses, in my 20's I hated it, same with neat single malt whiskey, this is a recognised phenomenon of how our palate degrades with age and loses the sugar receptors and begins to favour bitter and sour tastes .
> 
> Beer is similar, whilst still young I reckon our palates find bitterness offensive, as we grow older or develop our palate by experience it becomes a pleasure, so super hoppy and aromatic beers become more pleasurable.
> 
> Doesn't mean a very plain beer is bad.


This is precisely what I'm NOT saying, as per my examples above. I am NOT talking about things you don't happen to like. In any case, I would say that the palate improves with age to more refined tastes.



Mick71 said:


> And maybe even a plain infected beer can seem ok to some.


Doesn't stop it from being shit, though. Once again, dirt is a pretty shitty food. Just because kids eat it, doesn't mean it's otherwise. 

You're not getting this, are you?

Boring beers /= shit. Personal tastes determine the preference for/against.
Terribly made beers == shit. Personal tastes irrelevant here.

If I made a beer with toe jam it would not be 'a beer that only very few people like, but is not shit'... it would be shit. It would be shit at qualifying as a beer. While commercial examples won't go this far, some of their efforts are unworthy of the name 'beer'.


----------



## vr4_psych (17/2/11)

Clearly 'good' and 'shit' are being defined very differently here. But defining good based on mass popularity is inherently flawed. Wasn't Hitler once very popular? How about Bieber? Because millions like him, does that make him a good singer? No, it makes him a popular singer. 

Surely quality can only be judged by those experienced and educated on a given topic.


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## dougsbrew (17/2/11)

ok some people dont like vb, i know that. the people that dont like it are of a minority, it is bought and consumed all around the globe. thats not what this thread was about. how many brewers sell their beer out of a b double like this one. surely their beer cant be too bad. 



and thanks to those small number of posts out of 4 pages that was of relevance.


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## Bribie G (17/2/11)

XXXX gold, served at the correct temperature on a hot day actually isn't a bad beer - it's well made, has far less sugar adjunct than XXXX heavy, is made with real hop flowers and hits the spot for a million or so beer drinkers. Of course it's the equivalent of Tip Top bread but there again a million people are probably off to work today on a couple of slices of Tip Top toast with a Tip Top corned beef and pickles sandwich in their briefcase. This is sneered at by people who only eat sourdough or dark Rye from big wicker baskets out the front of a craft bakery run by a lady called Polly who is definitely a cat lady and drives a Citroen CV2 and Edna Everidge spectacle frames. 

I don't mind the odd sourdough myself but don't sneer at the Tip Top eaters (have an ALDI loaf in the fridge ATM)


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## pcmfisher (17/2/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> There are beers made and sold with full intention, not accidentally ruined, that are shit. Watery, foul-tasting crap that doesn't deserve to be called beer. This isn't "well, West End Draught has a funky flavour I don't particularly like" [preference], or "I find 'blue cheese' and 'stinky tofu' gross" [personal taste], this is 3-year-old's-attempt-at-breakfast-made-with-mud bad [shit].
> 
> The fact that some people may enjoy these shit beers doesn't mean that the beers aren't shit, it means that some people enjoy shit beers just like some kids eat dirt. Do they enjoy them better than craft beers? Harder so say.




Could you give me an example of one of these "Watery, foul-tasting crap"

I notice you put West End Draught in a different category :huh: :huh: 

If you make a 1000ibu floral bowl of fruit beer and you like it, does it mean its not a shit beer??

Old gramps has been making beer for 30yrs. 
Coopers Draught, 1kg table sugar, brewed in the shed at 29deg for 4 days.
Yes, technically a shit beer. 
But old gramps loves it. Thinks its just the best.
He likes his better that yours. He says yours is shit.
Is he wrong????


----------



## Supra-Jim (17/2/11)

pcmfisher said:


> If you make a 1000ibu floral bowl of fruit beer and you like it, does it mean its not a shit beer??
> 
> Old gramps has been making beer for 30yrs.
> Coopers Draught, 1kg table sugar, brewed in the shed at 29deg for 4 days.
> ...



What is it they say? Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder?

Cheers SJ


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## jonocarroll (17/2/11)

pcmfisher said:


> If you make a 1000ibu floral bowl of fruit beer and you like it, does it mean its not a shit beer??
> 
> Old gramps has been making beer for 30yrs.
> Coopers Draught, 1kg table sugar, brewed in the shed at 29deg for 4 days.
> ...


Congratulations! You've missed the point 100% -- PERFECT SCORE! --

Old gramps' beer IS NOT (NECESSARILY) SHIT (though it might be). If it's made well, there's a chance that it's not. Did none of my point about something not being liked and something being shit get through at all? You've claimed that Old gramps' beer is shit because it's simple. Bollocks. You've claimed mine is shit because you don't like it. I would make the point again, but clearly I'm doing this wrong.

I think part of the problem here is that you're still confusing personal taste with actual quality. If gramps says his is the *best* (as opposed to *good*) then presumably he's tried all the others and likes his more. If someone *prefers* fusels, esters, twang, and harshness over cleanly made (although simple) beer, I would suggest that they do indeed like shit product. Calling the Sistine Chapel frescoes 'shit' because you prefer finger paintings is the wrong use of the word.



pcmfisher said:


> Could you give me an example of one of these "Watery, foul-tasting crap"


Without going too far from home; Gulf Brewery Sou'Wester - terribly made beer (which, yes, some people might like, but it's terribly made) as an example. Some of the Lovely Valley beers would also fit the description. Beers like XXXX, WED, etc are very well made for what they are. I don't like them, but they're not shitty quality.


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## Jimboley (17/2/11)

Old gramps has been making beer for 30yrs. 
Coopers Draught, 1kg table sugar, brewed in the shed at 29deg for 4 days.
Yes, technically a shit beer. 
But old gramps loves it. Thinks its just the best.
He likes his better that yours. He says yours is shit.
Is he wrong????

This sounds like half my customers.

It was 37C yesterday afternoon, I bought and drank a Carlton Draught... I really enjoyed it...somehow it was just what I needed..... 

For the OP.....

My 24L AG Vic Bitter recipe

4kg JW Export Pilsner
1kg JW Trad Ale
300g WY Carapils
200g JW Caramalt

20g POR @ 60 mins
10g Cluster @ 20 mins

1/2 tab Whirlfloc @ 10 mins
1/2 tsp Yeast Food

Yeast suggestions:
Mauri 0541, Safale S04 (ferment at 18C)
or W34/70 (lager version- ferment at 12C)

Mash in 15L @ 60C for 30 mins 
then raise to 66C for 60 mins
Sparge with 4L @ 70C

Boil for 20 mins before adding hops.

Chill, pitch, ferment, keg/bottle & enjoy!

...It's not VB..but it's close & probably tastier IMHO

(5%ABV at 72% brew house efficiency)

I made this with and without the Cluster addition, and prefer it with.

I've also use Nugget with a good result.


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## Leigh (17/2/11)

But who defined shit? So the experts claim beer "a: is shit...are they right?

Infections are bad and mean shit beer? Weren't the first beers all infected? 

I piss myself laughing at the meaningless debates on this forum! Most are scientifically incorrect...the above relies on n=1 statistics...again meaningless!

I think I'll go to the Ford Forums and read about how Holdens are shit lmao

For the OP, My recipe is heavily based on Bribies. Run with that and then tweak to your liking.


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## Bribie G (17/2/11)

Jimboley, interesting yeast choice there. When doing a Carlton style a couple of years ago I did a double batch and fermented one with 34/70 and the other with Mauribrew lager yeast and although the Mauri didn't turn out as crisp, it didn't have the sulphur overtones of the other one. I took a couple of bottles to a case swap and no bad comments, even though by that stage everybody's buds had been zapped by hop monsters etc.


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## Malted (17/2/11)

BribieG said:


> if you have ever known anyone who kept pet mice in cages, that's the faint whiff you get in their room and it's a fleeting aftertaste you get with VB or XXXX,




He he he, Mouse Shit? Go on, we know you wanna say VB or XXXX has a Rat Shit aftertaste! :lol:

Ah now I see, these beers are not actually shit, they just have an aftertaste of shit. I get it now. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Bribie G (17/2/11)

It's more in the pee, you know the stuff that soaks into the sawdust at the bottom of the cage. Or maybe - here's a thought - it gets into the malt in the storage area -


----------



## Jimboley (17/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Jimboley, interesting yeast choice there. When doing a Carlton style a couple of years ago I did a double batch and fermented one with 34/70 and the other with Mauribrew lager yeast and although the Mauri didn't turn out as crisp, it didn't have the sulphur overtones of the other one. I took a couple of bottles to a case swap and no bad comments, even though by that stage everybody's buds had been zapped by hop monsters etc.



Hi BG, 
Isnt VB tradionally an Ale? 

The Mauri 054 is a English Ale Yeast.
Mauri Lager yeast leaves heaps of Banana'ish notes IMHO it reminds me of S23 (MAX SULPHUR)
I reckon the W34/70 is great, so clean and quick to condition.


----------



## pcmfisher (17/2/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Old gramps' beer IS NOT (NECESSARILY) SHIT (though it might be). If it's made well, there's a chance that it's not.


Coopers Draught, 1kg table sugar, brewed in the shed at 29deg for 4 days. I suppose there could be a chance that its well made. Screwing the fermenter lid on slowly and filling the airlock with holy water maybe.....Might not be shit.
Please define "well made"





> Did none of my point about something not being liked and something being shit get through at all?


Yes it did. According to you, if something is well made, regardless of taste, its good and if something is not well made its shit. Arse paper





> You've claimed that Old gramps' beer is shit because it's simple.


No I didn't





> You've claimed mine is shit because you don't like it.


Well thats as valid as you saying gramps' beer is shit because it was not made properly





> If gramps says his is the *best* (as opposed to *good*) then presumably he's tried all the others and likes his more.


That is possible. Maybe he doesn't like too much hop flavour, bitterness and body or in fact the taste of beer.





> If someone *prefers* fusels, esters, twang, and harshness over cleanly made (although simple) beer, I would suggest that they do indeed like shit product.


Thats your opinion. And probably technically correct but totally irrelevant to them though.


I do not think your definition of shit because its not made properly is if any use to anyone other than a beer snob.

So you would rather drink a beer that is made technically perfectly but *tastes* like shit to you than one made using less perfect procedure and happens to taste ok.

All I am trying to say is surely the only thing that is important is ones taste, and nobody has the right to tell anyone they are drinking shit beer.


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## Nick JD (17/2/11)

pcmfisher said:


> ...and nobody has the right to tell anyone they are drinking shit beer.



If you remove the lid of their fermenter, pull down your trousers, sit on the rim and squeeze one out ... then yeah, you do. 

I call it Dry Plopping.


----------



## bum (17/2/11)

You're still talking about preferences, pcmfisher.



Leigh said:


> Infections are bad and mean shit beer? Weren't the first beers all infected?


Sure but I guess it depends how we define "infected". They were certainly accidental. They were certainly wild fermented. But once you've got a precedent set (while not utterly set in stone, I will accept) you've got room to fairly call some infections actual infections rather than just a matter of preference, surely?

And, of course, if the old claim is true and all HB is infected to some degree then there certainly are also infected beers that aren't shit but when that infection turns the beer into something other than it was mean to (or should) be then I think you've got fair claim to label the beer "below par" (since some people really seem to be getting hung up on the word "shit").


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## jonocarroll (17/2/11)

QuantumBrewer said:


> You've claimed that Old gramps' beer is shit because it's simple.





pcmfisher said:


> No I didn't


and yet...


pcmfisher said:


> Old gramps has been making beer for 30yrs.
> Coopers Draught, 1kg table sugar, brewed in the shed at 29deg for 4 days.
> *Yes, technically a shit beer. *





pcmfisher said:


> Coopers Draught, 1kg table sugar, brewed in the shed at 29deg for 4 days. I suppose there could be a chance that its well made. Screwing the fermenter lid on slowly and filling the airlock with holy water maybe.....Might not be shit.
> Please define "well made"


Careful sanitation and procedure with good yeast viability and by some miracle no terribly off-flavours. In all likeliness it will be shit, but that would be presumptive of me.



pcmfisher said:


> Well thats as valid as *you saying gramps' beer is shit* because it was not made properly





QuantumBrewer said:


> Old gramps' beer *IS NOT (NECESSARILY) SHIT* (though it might be). If it's made well, there's a chance that it's not.


Odd interpretation.



pcmfisher said:


> Thats your opinion. And probably technically correct but totally irrelevant to them though.


I don't care what they think of my opinion, particularly more-so if it's 'technically correct'.I wasn't interested in getting into 'are people who drink shit beer offended by the fact that others know they drink shit beer?'



pcmfisher said:


> So you would rather drink a beer that is made technically perfectly but *tastes* like shit to you than one made using less perfect procedure and happens to taste ok.


Who said I would rather drink it? My point was that it existed.



pcmfisher said:


> All I am trying to say is surely the only thing that is important is ones taste, *and nobody has the right to tell anyone they are drinking shit beer*.


Why not? Is it some god-given right that protects you from me labeling the quality of your beverage? The point made earlier was that 'there is no such thing as shit beer'. I opposed that statement. Somehow saying 'there is such a thing as shit beer' violates basic human rights, I suppose.

I'm leaving this here. I see no point continuing further off-topic when you're contradicting yourself and putting words in my keyboard. If you make a terrible beer, I'll still call it shit. If you want to live in your own little world where there is no such thing as 'bad' then go nuts, by all means. You have the support of the drunk teenagers who think 'any alcohol is awesome coz it gets you pissed!!! woo!' Beer - like any substance - shouldn't be naively elevated above it's actual quality for the sake of popularity.


----------



## Ross (17/2/11)

Jimboley said:


> ..... it reminds me of S23 (MAX SULPHUR)
> I reckon the W34/70 is great, so clean and quick to condition.




strange how yeast work so differently for different brewers... :unsure: 

We brew with S-23 every day & never had a whiff of sulphur, whereas 34/70 can be the sulphur king.

cheers Ross

....apologies for being off topic, but the original question was answered long ago even though it appears to have been largly ignored.


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## tavas (17/2/11)

dougsbrew said:


> hi, i am having a go at making a VB tommorow.
> it will be a 20 litre brew, heres my grain bill -
> 3.6kg B.B. Ale malt,
> 300g B.B. Wheat malt.
> ...




I bet you're glad you asked that question. :lol: 

5 pages and going.


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## megs80 (17/2/11)

Enough with the sensible answering of questions. 

I need to know if all the saisons Ive liked over the years fdermented at 29+ are shit! The bottle of double bastard I had was pretty boozy, Was that shit too? Ah man, I just dont know. What if Ive spent my life liking shit beers.


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## Bizier (17/2/11)

Tony said:


> sawp the ale for pilsner malt
> use dextrose to about 10%
> POR at 60 min to about 20 ibu
> no late hops
> ...


I got something scarily close once when I blended s04 and the w-34/70 (?) strain, fermenting at 16c.

I doubt that the s04 did much, I think it was all the lager, proportionally underpitched and fermented warm. It cleaned up in the end to a nice beer, but I guess you could filter to halt the cleanup.


----------



## megs80 (17/2/11)

Bizier said:


> I got something scarily close once when I blended s04 and the w-34/70 (?) strain, fermenting at 16c.
> 
> I doubt that the s04 did much, I think it was all the lager, proportionally underpitched and fermented warm. It cleaned up in the end to a nice beer, but I guess you could filter to halt the cleanup.




I think I knocked back a couple of those? Was pretty close from memory


----------



## Bizier (17/2/11)

megs80 said:


> I think I knocked back a couple of those? Was pretty close from memory


probably, but the real thing was when I drew a fermenter sample for vitalstats, I made him comment on it before I said anything, and he said vb straight off the bat.


----------



## bradsbrew (17/2/11)

I think brussel sprouts taste like yellow and I dont like them. Wouldn't say they taste like shit, shit tastes completely different.
Try explaining that to someone at a dinner party :huh:


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## winkle (17/2/11)

bradsbrew said:


> I think brussel sprouts taste like yellow and I dont like them. Wouldn't say they taste like shit, shit tastes completely different.
> Try explaining that to someone at a dinner party :huh:



Thats very interesting Brad. 
The Marco Polo hops I bought a while back tasted brown to me. Didn't think they tasted like shit back then :blink: , but ......... hang on a minute :icon_vomit: .


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## Bribie G (17/2/11)

mmmmm...........Purple .............. :icon_drool2:


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## bradsbrew (17/2/11)

Jimboley said:


> 20g POR @ 60 mins
> 10g Cluster @ 20 mins




I thought POR bittering and cluster flavour addition was more Fourex than VB?


----------



## winkle (17/2/11)

bradsbrew said:


> I thought POR bittering and cluster flavour addition was more Fourex than VB?



That's the impression I got from Milton too, POR bittering to 20 IBU, single cluster flavour addition.
Mind you they probably multi-stream now-days as well.


----------



## Nick JD (17/2/11)

I have a recipe call _The Fence Sitter_ which is basically a 2:1 ratio of Cluster to PoR (60 minutes), and BB Pale malt, S189 @12C, mashed at 64C.

It tastes like a State of Origin draw. 

It doesn't taste of shit. It tastes like an Aussie Lager should.

If I was in this game for profit, I'd replace some of the malt with sugar, lower the mash temp, replace the hops with isohops - and advertise like buggary that my beer is FOR REAL BLOKES. 

Because for some reason, Australian men have a bit of a macho complex. You can sell them anything if it makes them feel LIKE A MAN. 

Beer should taste like NOTHING! And be COLD. And NOT BE GIRLY! 

Someone might think you like other blokes if it tastes like flowers ... hop flowers.


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## stux (17/2/11)

pcmfisher said:


> Could you give me an example of one of these "Watery, foul-tasting crap"
> 
> I notice you put West End Draught in a different category :huh: :huh:
> 
> ...



If its not infected... or oxidized... 

then its just a crap beer... not a shit beer


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## Rotgut (17/2/11)

unrealeous said:


> Looking forward to this thread developing into the standard bashing of aussie lagers...



:icon_cheers:


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## pingdong (17/2/11)

im trying to ake an aussie lager!


----------



## jasonharley (17/2/11)

Nick JD said:


> I have a recipe call _The Fence Sitter_ which is basically a 2:1 ratio of Cluster to PoR (60 minutes), and BB Pale malt, S189 @12C, mashed at 64C.
> 
> It tastes like a State of Origin draw.
> 
> ...




What about beer for gay footballers ?????


----------



## Nick JD (17/2/11)

Five Eyes Brewing Company said:


> What about beer for gay footballers ?????



Gay Footballers drink Pimms and Semen _cock_tails.


----------



## haysie (17/2/11)

Having a flick thru the thread because its always interesting for me other peoples interpretations of hop bitterness.
If I made a VB it would be one malt 15% dex, sugar, cluster at 45min to 22-25 ibu, fermented with one of those dry lager yeasts. Never brewed one, buts there where I would start. I find cluster a great neutral hop that very rarely will leave noticable hop flavours in the finished beer.


----------



## Hatchy (17/2/11)

Not sure if it was mentioned earlier or if you care but if you haven't already then work out the OG of vb. Pour some in a hydrometer tube to get the FG & then you know the abv & FG so can work out the OG.

The real benefit of doing this is that you'll have a hydrometer tube worth of vb that you don't have to drink. Obviously you'll have to deal with the shame of buying a can of vb.

The second paragraph was an attempt at one of those joke things I've been working on. Did I do good?


----------



## kieran (18/2/11)

MHB said:


> There is a reasonable argument that a brewer's ability is best measured by their ability to not make a good beer, but to make the same beer again and again..... reproducibility being the term.
> 
> If you visit the brewery in Melbourne and have a look at the flowchart that shows the production process you will see it clearly shows the bitterness being added post fermentation (well it did last time I was there).
> MHb



I think, though, that you have to draw a line in the sand between *The Brewer* and *The Brewer's Craft* which is what is put to work to produce a traditional beer. And a *barley-based drink* which has come about through an intersection between *brewing and food chemistry*. Of course with the aid of chemistry you can make anything tightly reproducible. Being a biochemist myself, I'm aware of this. However, if some serious effort is put in.. (not *that* much, mind you) you can make a reproducible 'formula' using natural ingredients in their native forms at native concentrations (not extracts, not purified extracts from natural sources, not isomerases, etc which is the dodgespeak for 'nothing artificial' in a lot of these beers).

I think if one were to put a tight definition around what constitutes beer, most, if not all, mass scale 'beers' would fail. I'm not saying we should go with something like the reinheitsgebot because it wipes out a shedload of styles of beer. I think it would be quite easy for all Australian Craft Brewers to get together and come up with some sort of "HEART TICK" or something like that.. then all pool their moneys, and blitz the media.

Margarine looks like butter, but it is not butter.


----------



## Bizier (18/2/11)




----------



## Thirsty Boy (18/2/11)

kieran said:


> I think, though, that you have to draw a line in the sand between *The Brewer* and *The Brewer's Craft* which is what is put to work to produce a traditional beer. And a *barley-based drink* which has come about through an intersection between *brewing and food chemistry*. Of course with the aid of chemistry you can make anything tightly reproducible. Being a biochemist myself, I'm aware of this. However, if some serious effort is put in.. (not *that* much, mind you) you can make a reproducible 'formula' using natural ingredients in their native forms at native concentrations (not extracts, not purified extracts from natural sources, not isomerases, etc which is the dodgespeak for 'nothing artificial' in a lot of these beers).
> 
> I think if one were to put a tight definition around what constitutes beer, most, if not all, mass scale 'beers' would fail. I'm not saying we should go with something like the reinheitsgebot because it wipes out a shedload of styles of beer. I think it would be quite easy for all Australian Craft Brewers to get together and come up with some sort of "HEART TICK" or something like that.. then all pool their moneys, and blitz the media.
> 
> Margarine looks like butter, but it is not butter.



nice ish idea - but if not as limiting as the reinheitsgebot, still pretty limiting and beers you wouldn't expect might end up on the wrong side of the exclusion fence.

Chimay - No tick (iso extract)
Many other Belgian Beers - No tick (Candy sugar, a natural ingredient but not in anything like its natural form)
Pliny the Elder - No tick (iso extract)

Budweiser - Tick


Shit beer is easy to define - beer that doesn't meet the expectations of the brewer. If the brewer has an audience of people who like beer that tastes of monkey semen, brews a beer that tastes of monkey semen & the audience likes it.... Expectations met, beer not shit. If it accidentally tastes exactly like Duvel instead of monkey semen, then while I might prefer that, it makes it a pretty shit monkey semen beer.

People thinking that a beer is shit that in fact is exactly how it is intended to be - that's about personal preference and a mismatch between the expectation of the brewer and the expectation of the drinker about the experience drinking the beer.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt (18/2/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> ... brews a beer that tastes of monkey semen ...



So you tried those beers I gave you. No need to say anything more.


----------



## unrealeous (18/2/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Shit beer is easy to define - beer that doesn't meet the expectations of the brewer.


All a brewer needs to do to stop producing shit beer is to lower their expectations 

I use a more subjective definition - a shit beer is any beer I don't like.


----------



## mje1980 (18/2/11)

Another thread runied by high horses and post count cowboys.


----------



## pcmfisher (18/2/11)

bum said:


> You're still talking about preferences, pcmfisher.



But does anything else apart from personal taste really matter?





Thirsty Boy said:


> Shit beer is easy to define - beer that doesn't meet the expectations of the brewer. If the brewer has an audience of people who like beer that tastes of monkey semen, brews a beer that tastes of monkey semen & the audience likes it.... Expectations met, beer not shit. If it accidentally tastes exactly like Duvel instead of monkey semen, then while I might prefer that, it makes it a pretty shit monkey semen beer.



That pretty much sums it up for me :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers:


----------



## Nick JD (18/2/11)

mje1980 said:


> Another thread runied by high horses and post count cowboys.



_"Dedicated to "tomfoolery, shinnanigans, and talking out ones arse"_ 

I would think this is the perfect thread for your comments.


----------



## Bizier (18/2/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> nice ish idea - but if not as limiting as the reinheitsgebot, still pretty limiting and beers you wouldn't expect might end up on the wrong side of the exclusion fence.
> 
> Chimay - No tick (iso extract)
> Many other Belgian Beers - No tick (Candy sugar, a natural ingredient but not in anything like its natural form)
> ...


 

Aren't the above breweries using supercritical C02 hop extracts rather than iso hop extracts? 

I do not really have any useful opinion on the argument. And this thread actually has me considering brewing a similar beer myself. Hell, it would be a welcome change from the last nightmare mash I did. My graphic was just because I was bored and everyone else is getting so worked up over a silly matter.


----------



## bconnery (18/2/11)

Bizier said:


> Aren't the above breweries using supercritical C02 hop extracts rather than iso hop extracts?
> 
> I do not really have any useful opinion on the argument. And this thread actually has me considering brewing a similar beer myself. Hell, it would be a welcome change from the last nightmare mash I did. My graphic was just because I was bored and everyone else is getting so worked up over a silly matter.


Maybe, but the post TB was responding too excluded all types of extracts: "not extracts, not purified extracts from natural sources, not isomerases, etc which is the dodgespeak for 'nothing artificial' in a lot of these beers)."

A number of hefeweizens could be added to that list as they use hop extract. 
I dont' have the names to hand but could get them. 

I think the list of beers that wouldn't meet that criteria would include a lot of beers that many of us know and enjoy, and I don't mean VB.


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## Thirsty Boy (18/2/11)

Bizier said:


> Aren't the above breweries using supercritical C02 hop extracts rather than iso hop extracts?



Supercritical CO2 hop extracts are iso extracts - all the same stuff, just obtained in a different way.

But as bconnery said, i mainly meant to say that if you start down the track of saying "it isn't beer if....." then you are almost inevitably going to rule out some things that you might wish you hadn't.


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## dougsbrew (18/2/11)

the weekend is upon us, i better get down to the bottle shop and get myself a bag of ice and 
a carton of nice refreshing vb. vb is an abbreviation for very best.....
View attachment 44149


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## Jimboley (18/2/11)

bradsbrew said:


> I thought POR bittering and cluster flavour addition was more Fourex than VB?




it is, thats just my version as just POR is not enough for my taste.
You could sub for POR or leave it out completely


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## bradsbrew (18/2/11)

Jimboley said:


> it is, thats just my version as just POR is not enough for my taste.
> You could sub for POR or leave it out completely



So the general idea is if you use POR and cluster or just cluster alone, good call haysie might try that one with my next aussie mid strength, you will end up with an aussie style beer. Obviously malt, temp and yeast will contibute but you should end up with a good homebrew for the mates that arent into international beer styles. And if you can make a home brew that they call "just like VB/Fourex/Fosters/Carlton" you've done well.

Cheers


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## Nick JD (18/2/11)

bradsbrew said:


> And if you can make a home brew that they call "just like VB/Fourex/Fosters/Carlton" you've done well.



Another beer to impress the megaswill diehards is a cross between a Euro Lager and an Aussie Lager. Pils malt and 20% sugaz; PoR in early; Saaz in late (or any noble hop). It's actually a top drop.


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## bum (18/2/11)

pcmfisher said:


> But does anything else apart from personal taste really matter?



I don't know much about art but I know what I like.

^rhetoric you don't understand


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## Nick JD (18/2/11)

bum said:


> I don't know much about art but I know what I like.
> 
> ^rhetoric you don't understand



You have a complete grasp of loneliness, bum.

^Rhetoric you understand.


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## Cocko (18/2/11)

dougsbrew said:


> vb is an abbreviation for very best.....



No, it is: '*V*isitors *B*eer'


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## bum (18/2/11)

Nick JD said:


> You have a complete grasp of loneliness, bum.
> 
> ^Rhetoric you understand.


No and yes.

8y 'no' I mean yeah but nah, i'm sure someone knows what I mean.


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## Thirsty Boy (19/2/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Supercritical CO2 hop extracts are iso extracts - all the same stuff, just obtained a different way



Hah - i speak through my rectum. This statement of mine is wrong as could be. While the vast majority of ISO extract does come from liquid or supercritical CO2 processes..... There is no reason the process must include pre-isomerising the alpha acids - and some dont.

So Bizier has it to rights - the breweries i mentioned do use hop extract, but they might be using plain old CO2 extract with all its lumps bumps and inefficiencies - and maybe there are some people out there who think that thats better than using ISO

My bad, needed my error pointed out to me


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## speedie (19/2/11)

instead of going on about what is in the beer that micros brew 
you should be giving more thought on how you can get this leeching goverment to stop taxing the life out of good hand built beer
then maybe the brewer would put more heart put into the beer than worring about mister exicise man


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## gregs (19/2/11)

speedie said:


> instead of going on about what is in the beer that micros brew
> you should be giving more thought on how you can get this leeching goverment to stop taxing the life out of good hand built beer
> then maybe the brewer would put more heart put into the beer than worring about mister exicise man




Brain-dead is back again. :icon_offtopic:


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## speedie (19/2/11)

gregs it would appear that you are in contary to your logo
your out of balance with that attitude


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (19/2/11)

gregs said:


> Brain-dead is back again. :icon_offtopic:


 :icon_offtopic: :lol:


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## gregs (19/2/11)

_WALLACE_ said:


> :icon_offtopic: :lol:




Yeah, it is funny, but Im not sure what Speedy means by the word contary, maybe he means contrary. :icon_offtopic:


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (19/2/11)

gregs said:


> Yeah, it is funny, but Im not sure what Speedy means by the word contary, maybe he means contrary. :icon_offtopic:



AGAIN :icon_offtopic: (sorry OP'er) , maybe we should shit on him in his own threads, instead of shitting up anothers? Just my Opinion.


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## gregs (19/2/11)

Good point Wallace, a hard earned thirst needs a cold hard beer and the best cold beer is Vic, Victoria Bitter. 

Or something like that.


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## DUANNE (19/2/11)

speedie said:


> instead of going on about what is in the beer that micros brew
> you should be giving more thought on how you can get this leeching goverment to stop taxing the life out of good hand built beer
> then maybe the brewer would put more heart put into the beer than worring about mister exicise man




tend to agree with the sentiment of this. cub has been fairly open about constantly droping the abv of vb to get around the governments exise and other taxes and still suply the average drinker a reasonably priced beer(and a healthy profit of course).
although if the fair go for craft beer thing goes through one of these days and i could choose between a good craft beer or fosters/tooheys for 12 bucks a sixer , the craft beer would definatly be my choice and even a few mega swillers would end up converted quickly to craft beer aswell imo.


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## Bizier (19/2/11)

Look at the evolution of the old Coopers Pale Ale as well for evidence of this. I have a hunch that it probably subsidises people that drink the Sparkling or Best Extra Stout.

And thanks for clearing that up about the extracts TB.


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## levin_ae92 (19/2/11)

Use all pils malt (head retention?? whats head retention??) and only boil for 30 mins to get that nice DMS character (honestly i think the sulphur is what makes an aussie lager), or boil for 60 if you no chill. Mash low (63) and theres no need for dex, and yeah 15-20ibu of a high alpha hop you cant taste at 60 (so no galaxy ) 

ferment cold, and if its not crisp enough add some citric acid til you reach a pH of 5 

oh and serve it at 2 degrees celcius!!!


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## beerbrewer76543 (19/2/11)

step 1: ask forum members about recipe

step 2: await ensuing shit fight

step 3: wade through page after page of garbage for the info you were after

step 4: brew the beer and find out the style doesn't taste all that good

step 5: ask forum members about new recipe

step 6: repeat steps 2 to 5


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## Bribie G (19/2/11)

I live about six doors from Liquorland at the Bribie Hotel.

I can't stand all this


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (19/2/11)

L_Bomb said:


> step 1: ask forum members about recipe
> 
> step 2: await ensuing shit fight
> 
> ...



step 7: await reply from speedie! :beerbang: , then jump to step 2........ 

I know where u live now bribie!!!! h34r:


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## Bribie G (19/2/11)

Quivering bottle of VB, oh what are you going to do to me?

ve ask der questions.


Hey interesting, nothing here says "Victoria Bitter" - jut VB - well now. 

let's see how the cow sits in the cabbage patch


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## haysie (19/2/11)

i like lickerland too    
yeah, shit thread thats been done over n over, hence, take the piss


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## NickB (19/2/11)

OMG, don't do it Michael... Don't subject yourself to that torture.....


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## bradsbrew (19/2/11)

Bribie I think you should have made it a real test and grabbed a bottle of Fourex bitter and a Fosters as well. Then you can give results on which one is mouse cage, guinea pig pen and chicken coup aroma.

Cheers


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (19/2/11)

come on guys! do u remember when u were a noob? and you wanted to know the secret recipie for fourex, vb and fosters??? give the poor bloke a rest eh?

Mate: ignore the shit, u will find that it is a silly question, in a few years time! :lol: 

Goodluck with the mega-swill recipie hunt mate! There is alot of good advice on this forum. just dont go with the "lagers ferment nicely at 27DEG" and the ....................... got the idea????


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## Bribie G (19/2/11)

Ok the only other beer I have been drinking tonight is Yorkshire Gold (Promised Gold but made on Perle)

Aroma: actually smells like beer :icon_cheers: - sweetish and some sort of hop but slight
Appearance: 3 out of 3



Flavour: I GOT THE MOUSE PISS IMMEDIATELY  - MOUSE PISS MOUSE PISS, RIGHT UP THE BACK OF MY NOSE. 
Metallic bitterness, actually more bitter than my Yorkshire Gold bittered with Challenger. It's 30 seconds since the swig and it's still coating the back and sides of my tongue - this is serious IBU, I would say up in the 20s but harsh.
Apart from the mouse piss, I cannot get any malt at all.

The more sips I take the more bitter it gets. But nothing to support the bitterness.

Aha I just burped up the back of my nose, no hop coming up. Pure ISO I would imagine. 

Vile


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## bradsbrew (19/2/11)

BribieG said:


> View attachment 44179



Ha ha thats the funniest post in a while. :lol: what did you pay for that largie Bribie?


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## Bribie G (19/2/11)

About a fifth of the price of a 23L award winning full brew


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## Cocko (19/2/11)

Not sure how you know what mouse piss taste like.. maybe for another thread...

But, talk about taking one for the team!

Classic!


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## QldKev (19/2/11)

speedie said:


> instead of going on about what is in the beer that micros brew
> you should be giving more thought on how you can get this leeching goverment to stop taxing the life out of good hand built beer
> then maybe the brewer would put more heart put into the beer than worring about mister exicise man




I <3 speedie



























speedie = tosser!





did Henry Ford worry about "leeching government" (ps that's is how to spell government) 
no!... he reduced the standard working hours from a 9hr to 8hr a day and paid top dollar at $5 a day for the duties. He was a forward thinking, not a winger!






speedie = VB drinker!




QldKev


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## haysie (19/2/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Ha ha thats the funniest post in a while. :lol: what did you pay for that largie Bribie?



He`s a scream isnt he. Laughs on AHB are good. Keep em coming BG


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## bradsbrew (19/2/11)

_WALLACE_ said:


> come on guys! do u remember when u were a noob? and you wanted to know the secret recipie for fourex, vb and fosters??? give the poor bloke a rest eh?
> 
> Mate: ignore the shit, u will find that it is a silly question, in a few years time! :lol:
> 
> Goodluck with the mega-swill recipie hunt mate! There is alot of good advice on this forum. just dont go with the "lagers ferment nicely at 27DEG" and the ....................... got the idea????



Wasn't having a dig at the Doug. Just having a laugh on a saturday night a couple of beers :icon_cheers: .
To be honest if I could make a brew like the way I remember *Fourex* *used to be* then I would be a happy brewer.


Cheers


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## bradsbrew (19/2/11)

BribieG said:


> About a fifth of the price of a 23L award winning full brew



Good to see you got rid of that nasty toilet thingo that almost took the end of your nob of too.


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## Bribie G (19/2/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Good to see you got rid of that nasty toilet thingo that almost took the end of your nob of too.



unfortunately it healed up perfectly which was a bummer because I was hoping for permanent scarring so I could sue them to buggery.

Now I don't have a (third) leg to stand on


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## haysie (19/2/11)

_WALLACE_ said:


> come on guys! do u remember when u were a noob? and you wanted to know the secret recipie for fourex, vb and fosters??? give the poor bloke a rest eh?
> 
> Mate: ignore the shit, u will find that it is a silly question, in a few years time! :lol:
> 
> Goodluck with the mega-swill recipie hunt mate! There is alot of good advice on this forum. just dont go with the "lagers ferment nicely at 27DEG" and the ....................... got the idea????



after 137 posts with some very good input, it was just another thread open.
nobody i seen giving doug a towelling.
If we all got serious we would post like TB and PP, I cant do that. I havent that much VB in me. VB= Verbatim Bullshit, he spoke it, so do i.


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## jyo (19/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Quivering bottle of VB, oh what are you going to do to me?
> 
> ve ask der questions.
> 
> ...



Bribie, you're a truly funny bugger.


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## tipsy (19/2/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> people who like beer that tastes of monkey semen



Should go straight to the horses mouth

http://www.seattlemet.com/blogs/sauced/new...-february-2011/


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## MHB (19/2/11)

I cant believe this thread is out to 8 pages, VB simply isnt interesting enough to warrant this amount of discussion.

MHB


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## bignath (20/2/11)

speedie said:


> big nath at 34 years old you must have put a major amount of brewing knowledge together
> post something of substance cockerel



If you can visit my profile page to see that yes, i am in fact 34 years old, you can figure out how to read some of my posts yourself dickhead.
You'll see that in general, i post only on topics that i am knowledgeable about. I consider myself to be a long way from knowing everything about this brewing caper, and i don't think i will ever reach the point of knowing everything. 
My profession is a private music tutor/professional musician, and in my capacity as a teacher, i realise that as soon as i think i know everything, i will come to realise that i know **** all. Take a look at yourself mate. How many posts do you type that return such angry fire back at you. How many do you think i get? Hmmmm, not very many at all. 

The fact that you get so much return fire should speak volumes to you about your manner on this (and previous) sites you frequent.

If you're going to call someone out, make sure you're right, or you'll look like a complete cock every time.


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## speedie (23/2/11)

got flagged for three days due to obscene typing
if vasco and all those other dudes that were going to sail off the map listened to your assumptions of what is correct
then they would have never put sail around the globe
and prove that infact it is round


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## bum (23/2/11)

Following you analogy - everyone already knows that Earth is round, Galileo. All you've discovered is that you and your mates prefer the Flat Earth Theory.

(As I think I said more directly 6 pages ago.)


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## speedie (23/2/11)

so there in itself lays the answer safty in numbers 
what ever you do dont think out side the box
or our flat globe


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## bum (23/2/11)

YOU ARE NOT THINKING OUTSIDE OF THE BOX. YOUR METHOD IS OLD NEWS AND YOUR RESULTS (though not conclusions - as they are based on preference) ARE LONG ESTABLISHED AND THE (correct, non-lightning based) EXPLANATIONS ARE WELL DOCUMENTED.


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## Effect (24/2/11)

Speedie, the opening post asked a question and you have nothing to add but garbage...

You should be ashamed of yourself...

If you don't have anything positive to contribute, don't add anything at all.


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## bum (24/2/11)

Uh...I guess I was thinking of the other thread. All still stands, of course, but it's in the wrong place.

Not sure how that happened - didn't even have a beer in me. Actually, that's probably the problem.


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## speedie (25/2/11)

bum without a beer or beer comment does seem totaly out of wack
get drinkin son


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## Nashmandu (26/2/11)

speedie said:


> bum without a beer or beer comment does seem totaly out of wack
> get drinkin son


 
Whats your name speedie?


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## goomboogo (26/2/11)

Nashmandu said:


> Whats your name speedie?



Charlie Sheen.


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