# Ideal Flavour & Aroma Hop Ratios And Addition Times



## SJW (18/6/07)

I have been doing some reseach and trying to find a benchmark for the best hop addition ratio's and times, and are coming up a little short. We are all aware that a 60min boil is the min. for max bitterness extraction but what about flavour and aroma. 
For eg. A simple Pils. 
If I was looking at 3 hop additions with the one hop variety, bittering, flavour and aroma, I have been working on a ratio of 40%, 30%, 30%. at 60/30/1 min. intervals. This appears to work ok but is it the best utilisation of my hops for the derired results. 
Could I get the same results by reducing the 60 min addition and uping the 30 min addition thus increasing IBU's and getting more flavour. On paper or Beersmith you can.
In that case why not just have one hop addition at approx 20 mins and get the best of all worlds without all the little additions?

Steve


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## oldbugman (18/6/07)

For starters you would need to use a greater total amount of hops.


Also from my limited late only hopping you get a different kind of bitterness out of it.(hopefully someone can explain that better)


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## SpillsMostOfIt (18/6/07)

I'm yet to know for sure. But, I use this as a guide:

http://www.brewsupplies.com/hop_characteristics.htm


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## Cortez The Killer (18/6/07)

I use that chart as a guide too

Very handy

Cheers




SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I'm yet to know for sure. But, I use this as a guide:
> 
> http://www.brewsupplies.com/hop_characteristics.htm


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## SJW (18/6/07)

Thats a great table SpillsMostOfIt.


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## boingk (18/6/07)

Very nice indeed, just saved myself a copy - hell, I'm gonna print one out and tack it to my wall!


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## bugwan (18/6/07)

That's quite an interesting chart - I wonder where the data is from??


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## Enerjex (18/6/07)

there is another chart from the menu on that site that gives a relationship between IBUs and OG. Interesting.


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## SJW (18/6/07)

That not a bad site. I interested in where they get the info from.
Also I wonder if there should be any allowance for continued hop utilization during the time it takes to cool the wort. Thinking from a no chiller type of production where the finished/boiled wort/beer would be sitting for up to half an hour prior to transfer into the cube for cooling.


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## Uncle Fester (18/6/07)

There are about 6 pages on that site that have really good info on grains, hops, and the interaction between them under different circumstances.


Have bookmarked.

Thanks.


Festa.


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## AndrewQLD (18/6/07)

SJW said:


> I have been doing some reseach and trying to find a benchmark for the best hop addition ratio's and times, and are coming up a little short. We are all aware that a 60min boil is the min. for max bitterness extraction but what about flavour and aroma.
> For eg. A simple Pils.
> If I was looking at 3 hop additions with the one hop variety, bittering, flavour and aroma, I have been working on a ratio of 40%, 30%, 30%. at 60/30/1 min. intervals. This appears to work ok but is it the best utilisation of my hops for the derired results.
> Could I get the same results by reducing the 60 min addition and uping the 30 min addition thus increasing IBU's and getting more flavour. On paper or Beersmith you can.
> ...




Steve,
In my favorite Pilsner recipe I use 60,40,20 minute hop additions using equal quantities of hops for each one. I don't use any flameout/aroma additions at all and this beer has a ton of aroma and flavor and is closer to a commercial style european Pilsner than any other hopping schedule I have used.
Just wish I could enter it in the Qld State comp :lol: .

Cheers
Andrew


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## Brewer_010 (18/6/07)

It's a good site. I've bookmarked it to use as another reference. 
Thanks SMOI :beerbang:


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## Ross (18/6/07)

AndrewQLD said:


> Just wish I could enter it in the Qld State comp :lol: .
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew



You can in the one down here Andrew  

cheers Ross


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## Ross (18/6/07)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I'm yet to know for sure. But, I use this as a guide:
> 
> http://www.brewsupplies.com/hop_characteristics.htm



Probably good as a guide, but if their comments below it are anything to go by I wouldn't rely too much on its accuracy..

"As you can see, peak AROMA is about 7 minutes after the start of the boil.
Peak FLAVOR is about 20 minutes into the boil and peak BITTERNESS is arrived at about 60 minutes.

Hops boiled for 20 minutes yeild maximum flavor but all the aroma has dissipated.
By 40 minutes, all the flavor has disipated."

Saying *ALL* aroma & flavour are dissipated after these times is not correct...

Cheers Ross


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## AndrewQLD (18/6/07)

I agree Ross, 20 or 15 minute additions, if enough hops are used give plenty of aroma.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Chris (18/6/07)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I'm yet to know for sure. But, I use this as a guide:
> 
> http://www.brewsupplies.com/hop_characteristics.htm



Cheers, havnt seen this before.

Five of my last six brews I have used either 20 and 5 min if plugs or 2 or 3 min less if pellets and the results have been consistently good.
I used to start aroma and flavour additions at 15 min, and wasnt happy with the depth of flavour, so I reckon this charts pretty good.
My only query is the decline rate of flavouring compounds. Down to 0% after 45min??? If you brewed two identical beers, only hopped for bitterness at 90 min, one with chinook and the other EKG, you would definatly taste the difference. 
Otherwise everyone would be happy with POR.  

Cheers

Chris


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## SJW (18/6/07)

> I agree Ross, 20 or 15 minute additions, if enough hops are used give plenty of aroma.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew


WOW :blink: Now that goes against everything I have read. I guess now all I have to do is try it for myself, and that I will.
I must say that I have done over 40 AG brews now using the very late additions for flavour and aroma and have not found a great difference in end results no matter how much I add at say flame out or 1 min. At least with the 60 40 20 therory if you can cut down on the o/a amount of hops used and get the same or better results than using late additions it has to be a good thing.  

Steve


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## SpillsMostOfIt (18/6/07)

It's interesting how different people's experience varies.

I've used this table as a guide and when I do, it seems to work pretty well, in spite of the fact that I BIAB and no-chill. I do tend to dry-hop to secondary as well, which may contradict the table.

As a contrast, I did a hop-burst thing with additions each five minutes from 30mins to powerdown and the finished beer had less of everything than my usual technique, despite using more hops than I would normally.

Should you take it as gospel? Of course not - nothing you read (here or elsewhere on the intraweb thingy) should be taken so. But it is as good a published starting point as I have seen.

That site has several good illustrations in my view that work similarly.


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## Stuster (18/6/07)

When you did the hopburst beer, did you also dry hop that, SMOI?

I'm not sure about that site. I definitely disagree with this page for example, and I've definitely noticed hop flavour from beers which have 60 minute additions only. :unsure:


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## blackbock (18/6/07)

Stuster said:


> I'm not sure about that site. I definitely disagree with this page for example, and I've definitely noticed hop flavour from beers which have 60 minute additions only. :unsure:



It's a nice colourful chart but I think it's wrong too. Maltiness is probably not the right word there, as it is possible to have a malty beer which is also hoppy. 

As for flavour being not present after 40 minutes..hmm.


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## neonmeate (18/6/07)

depends on the hops (and beer) in question surely? i reckon you would taste it if you used 10g of chinook for bittering in a kolsch. otoh the old single 100g addition of hallertau for 60 mins in an alt results in plenty of flavour too. it's a question of balancing these things up with the other flavours in the beer, and the bitterness that the additions give, there's no simple formula that will work for every beer.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (18/6/07)

Stuster said:


> When you did the hopburst beer, did you also dry hop that, SMOI?



I did, but to a lesser extent than I would normally, so I could more easily see what was going on. I was disappointed by the hop flavour that came out of it more than the aroma that didn't show.


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## Stuster (18/6/07)

neonmeate said:


> depends on the hops (and beer) in question surely? i reckon you would taste it if you used 10g of chinook for bittering in a kolsch. otoh the old single 100g addition of hallertau for 60 mins in an alt results in plenty of flavour too. it's a question of balancing these things up with the other flavours in the beer, and the bitterness that the additions give, there's no simple formula that will work for every beer.



Yes, it depends on many things. They suggest that 25IBUs is balanced for a 1050 beer. That would be fine for some beers, much too high for a hefeweizen, and probably too low for an APA.

And how come a 1050 beer with 45IBUs is off the scale completely? :lol:


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## Uncle Fester (18/6/07)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I've used this table as a guide and when I do, it seems to work pretty well, in spite of the fact that I BIAB and no-chill.



Begs the question.... I assume that the graph assumes a rapid chilling of the beer. I wonder how the figures skew if the brew is no-chilled to ambient room temperature?

I bvaguely remeberthere was a bit of a belief that the No-chill imparted a few extra IBU's to the brew (I am yet to brew the same beer twice, let alone compare a chilled and no chilled effort agains eachother)


Any ideas?

Festa.


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## Tony (18/6/07)

Ross said:


> Probably good as a guide, but if their comments below it are anything to go by I wouldn't rely too much on its accuracy..
> 
> "As you can see, peak AROMA is about 7 minutes after the start of the boil.
> Peak FLAVOR is about 20 minutes into the boil and peak BITTERNESS is arrived at about 60 minutes.
> ...




I totaly agree with this ross.

I cant say i have a lot of faith in that graph.

Where are the results of studdies, tests, experiments.

Or is it the conclusion of someone without experience that read a couple of books.

Its things like this graph that make PP post posts about mis information.

It says that flame out additions give no aroma........... what a load of shit!

I started out adding my bittering hops at 90 min when i started brewing to get the most out of them bitterness wise.

I then reduced it to 60 min cause i needed more late additions to get the flavour and aroma i wanted.

I now add my bittering hops at 45 min and am very happy with the rusults. Sure you need a few more grams of hops but it works for me.

I add flavour hops at 15 to 20 min and aroma at 5 min to flamo out.

I have a couple of favorite hopping schedules.

No.1

10 IBU FWH in 60 min boil
remainder at 40 to 45 min
1g/liter at flame out.

produces a very easy drinking, non confonting beer with fantastic aroma

No.2

most of bitterness at 45 min.
0.5 - 1g/liter at 15 min
1g/liter at 5 min 

Produces a ballanced beer with smooth bitterness and matching flavor and aroma

No.3

all bitterness at 45 mn
0.5g/ liter flamo out

I use this nethod for wheat beers, and malty lagers like helles. the aroms is light and mellows quickly the pronounce the malt.

hope this helps. Its what i use but may not be to others tastes. Of course its not rock sollid rules, if you mant more flavour, up the flavour hops....... simple.

cheers


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## matti (19/6/07)

I hope that graph is only there for guidance because the ph value has a hell of a lot do with how much you get out of your hop at different times.
As for the comment below shlould be made with a disclaimer cause it seem a bit odd as well.

I'm with tony and ross on adding bittering hop at around 45 min.
Improved my brews tenfold. still add flavour at 20 min or around about and aroma at 5 minutes


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## Stuster (19/6/07)

That's very interesting, Tony and matti. I'm going to try adding bittering hops at 45. :super:


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## SJW (19/6/07)

I dont understand the revelation about adding bittering hops for 45min. Surly you would simply be trading off a little bitterness for a little more flavour and thats what you would need to add more hops to up the IBU's, and I bet it tastes good, more flavour. That brings me to my original question, why not take it one step further and add all the hops in one addition at 30 mins.
I thought the idea of a hopping schedule is to get the best value of your hops i.e. max bitterness (60 min boil) with the least amount of hops and same with flavour and aroma.
I thought AndrewQLD's comments were interesting but there has been no comment.
Just thinking out loud.

Steve


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## Brewer_010 (19/6/07)

I think any info at hand is useful in the absence of experience. I don't have a great deal of exp so am trying different techniques etc til I find something that suits me, for a particular style.

So thanks Tony for your hops shedules, I will give them a go in a beer soon :beer: 

Cheers


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## T.D. (19/6/07)

The best results I have gotten have been from adding smaller additions gradually across the second half of the boil. Say every 5 or 10 mintues from 30mins to flameout. I find this gives you a much more "integrated" hop flavour and aroma. My experience with adding a whole bunch of hops at 15mins, for example, and another whole bunch at flameout is that the hoppiness is more pronounced but doesn't seem to be as "balanced". 

The hop schedule I have been using quite a bit recently is: 

60min
20min
10min
5min
flameout 

The amount at each of these depends on how hoppy you want the beer to be. I find 1g/L at each of the late additions is good for getting a "hoppy" beer that's not too over the top.


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## Peter Wadey (19/6/07)

SJW said:


> .... That brings me to my original question, why not take it one step further and add all the hops in one addition at 30 mins.....
> 
> Steve



Hi SJW,
Because you may not want that much hop flavour.

Sorry, no magic formula. For me it depends on the style being made and the raw ingredients. 
Differences between hop varieties and also within the same variety (due to storage etc) would mean that you would probably want to make adjustments anyway.

I think you have a very good 'excuse' to brew more beer. 

Rgds,
Peter


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## SJW (19/6/07)

Its a great subject and a great hobbie. I love it. I just think that there is so much talk about malts, sugars and equipement I am finding it interesting to hear about others experiences with hops and sheduling. And I will give Toni's shedules a go, but I like AndrewQLD's thoughts on a 60 40 & 20 min. additions so I will try that in my next brew, a Bav. Lager.

Steve


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## AndrewQLD (19/6/07)

SJW said:


> WOW :blink: Now that goes against everything I have read. I guess now all I have to do is try it for myself, and that I will.
> I must say that I have done over 40 AG brews now using the very late additions for flavour and aroma and have not found a great difference in end results no matter how much I add at say flame out or 1 min. At least with the 60 40 20 therory if you can cut down on the o/a amount of hops used and get the same or better results than using late additions it has to be a good thing.
> 
> Steve



Steve, I only use a 60,40,20 schedule for my Pilsners, I have spent a lot of time trying to capture the taste of european pilsners and the hop schedule seems to help a lot St Pats was where I sourced the info for my recipe and there is a lot of info Here from a brewer who visited a Moravian brewery and spent a day brewing there.
I don't use that schedule for any other style of beer but it certainly gives a rounded hop complexity that is intense but not overly dominant or grassy.

I can't say I have cut down on the hops, 55grams of 3.1% Saaz for each addition is a fair amount of hops but they do blend into the malt very well.

Cheers
Andrew


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## SJW (19/6/07)

Thanks Andrew, that a great link, very interesting. 
Just wondering if you new what effects do using the NO CHILLER method of brewing have on hopping? The obvious difference is that the hops are exposed to the hot wort for longer. Would this add much to the IBU and would it reduce the aroma?


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## AndrewQLD (19/6/07)

SJW said:


> Thanks Andrew, that a great link, very interesting.
> Just wondering if you new what effects do using the NO CHILLER method of brewing have on hopping? The obvious difference is that the hops are exposed to the hot wort for longer. Would this add much to the IBU and would it reduce the aroma?



I can't say I have noticed any real difference between chilled or no chilled. I would think that it is the effect that BOILING wort has on hops that extracts the bitterness/aromas to varying degrees. I don't know for a fact that hot wort as opposed to boiling wort would have the same affect. However that is only my assumption and I have not ever researched it. It would be interesting to know though  .

Cheers
Andrew


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