# Napisan - Sodium Percarbonate



## reviled

Hey guys,

Have been reading how most of you use homebrand napisan or sodium percarbonate for sanitising and thought it sounds like a fairly cheap option, especially compared to buying sodium metabisulphate...

I was wondering, cos I had a look at the no name brand napisan and it was only about 25% sodium percarbonate and had other things in it also, is this still ok to use? 

Also, how does one sanitise with this stuff? Just make up a solution of how much napisan to how much water? And then once its touched the surfaces and dried up a bit do you need to rinse it off or not?

Ive been told by the guy at my home brew shop not to rinse off sodium met, and I havnt but more recently have discovered a slightly off taste to my beer which isnt infection... Has he put me down the wrong path?

Please help! P


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## therook

reviled said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Have been reading how most of you use homebrand napisan or sodium percarbonate for sanitising and thought it sounds like a fairly cheap option, especially compared to buying sodium metabisulphate...
> 
> I was wondering, cos I had a look at the no name brand napisan and it was only about 25% sodium percarbonate and had other things in it also, is this still ok to use?
> 
> Also, how does one sanitise with this stuff? Just make up a solution of how much napisan to how much water? And then once its touched the surfaces and dried up a bit do you need to rinse it off or not?
> 
> Ive been told by the guy at my home brew shop not to rinse off sodium met, and I havnt but more recently have discovered a slightly off taste to my beer which isnt infection... Has he put me down the wrong path?
> 
> Please help! P




Rev,

Have a look at this link, it may help you

Link

Rook


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## T.D.

Definitely need to rinse it. But I don't know of any brewers who use it as a sanitiser... A lot of people use it to keep their fermenters and cubes CLEAN but still use a sanitiser (Iodophor for example) afterwards. Napisan probably would act as a sanitiser as well but I find it most useful for cleaning scum off fermenters and cubes. Then I rinse a few times and then give it a run with iodophor to get it fully sanitised.


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## reviled

Maybe I read wrong about using it as a sanitiser, more for cleaning... Iodophor is a name ive heard for the first time today, is this a non rinse product?


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## geoffi

reviled said:


> Maybe I read wrong about using it as a sanitiser, more for cleaning... Iodophor is a name ive heard for the first time today, is this a non rinse product?




Yes. No-rinse when used at the correct dilution. Even used a little stronger you'll get away with it, as you need so little.

I strongly recommend the Basic Brewing Radio podcasts covering sanitising with Iodophor and Starsan. The latter also talks about sanistising with bleach, which is well worth a listen.

Podcasts


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## sponge

I let my fermenters soak over a few couple if nights in no-name napisan (and if i have any dirty stubbies/longnecks that need cleaning or getting the labels off, leave them in there as well). Works a treat. Then i just use a no rinse sanitiser after the soaking...


Sponge


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## reviled

I keep hearing about this no rinse sanitiser, ive decided that sodium met is not a no rinse product due to the slight "tangy" taste left in my beers, allthough that may be from Chlorine in the tap water im using???

We dont seem to have starsan in NZ unfortunately, and was wondering what is this iodophor stuff? It sounds like liquid gold!!! Specially seeing as you dont need to rinse... What form can you buy it in? Where would be a good place to look for it? And what are the normal ratios for Iodophor to water in order to get a sucessfull no rinse?

Cheers


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## therook

Try bleach, it's all in the link i posted

Rook


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## geoffi

reviled said:


> I keep hearing about this no rinse sanitiser, ive decided that sodium met is not a no rinse product due to the slight "tangy" taste left in my beers, allthough that may be from Chlorine in the tap water im using???
> 
> We dont seem to have starsan in NZ unfortunately, and was wondering what is this iodophor stuff? It sounds like liquid gold!!! Specially seeing as you dont need to rinse... What form can you buy it in? Where would be a good place to look for it? And what are the normal ratios for Iodophor to water in order to get a sucessfull no rinse?
> 
> Cheers



Dilutions etc are all in the link I posted to the podcasts. I think it's 'officially' 1 ml/1 litre, but I usually dilute to the point where I can just see a little colour in the solution, and just detect the smell. Slight overkill, but I have litres of the stuff (see below) and am not overly worried about economising on this. BTW, you don't need to soak anything in this solution. Eg., add say a litre to a fermenter, swish a few times, then turn upside down to drip for a few minutes. That's it.

You can buy iodophor at any home brew shop worth the name. If you can't get it any other way, try a rural supply shop. You can get iodine-based sanitisers (made for the dairy and poultry industries -- I use one called Sanichick) that are essentially the same as iodophor, in bulk at a fraction of the usual price.


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## roger mellie

reviled said:


> I keep hearing about this no rinse sanitiser, ive decided that sodium met is not a no rinse product due to the slight "tangy" taste left in my beers, allthough that may be from Chlorine in the tap water im using???
> 
> We dont seem to have starsan in NZ unfortunately, and was wondering what is this iodophor stuff? It sounds like liquid gold!!! Specially seeing as you dont need to rinse... What form can you buy it in? Where would be a good place to look for it? And what are the normal ratios for Iodophor to water in order to get a sucessfull no rinse?
> 
> Cheers



Starsan can be posted - check one of our site sponsors.

If you live in NZ and you aren't too far away from the countryside - go to your nearest dairy farm - ask the Cow Cocky for a small amount of the Iodine/Phosphoric acid pipe sterilser. It will usually be made by Alfa Laval. All Dairy farms use it.

500ml will last you for ages.

Pay the Cocky with Beer.

RM


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## Hutch

reviled said:


> I keep hearing about this no rinse sanitiser, ive decided that sodium met is not a no rinse product due to the slight "tangy" taste left in my beers, allthough that may be from Chlorine in the tap water im using???
> 
> We dont seem to have starsan in NZ unfortunately, and was wondering what is this iodophor stuff? It sounds like liquid gold!!! Specially seeing as you dont need to rinse... What form can you buy it in? Where would be a good place to look for it? And what are the normal ratios for Iodophor to water in order to get a sucessfull no rinse?
> 
> Cheers


Liquid gold, or perhaps liquid brown!
Starsan is available from site sponsors Craftbrewer and Grain and Grape (G&G sell it as a product called "Defender"), though not sure if they ship to NZ? It is basically stong phosphoric acid mixed with some other chemicals to act as a surfactant. It is very effective, is no-rinse, and does not leave any taint in your beer, and a little goes a long way (as with iodophor).

Sodium met is the work of the devil, and any HBS still promoting it's use as a steriliser is living in the dark ages, and needs a kick in the pants. The fumes are noxious, and potentially very dangerous for asthmatics.

The sodium percarbonate in Napysan can be bought in it's pure form from either Grain and Grape ("Oxyper") or from some supermarkets in the homebrewing section, labelled "Coopers Sanitiser":


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## geoffi

Iodophor will also help prevent cretinism... :wacko:


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## Bribie G

therook said:


> Try bleach, it's all in the link i posted
> 
> Rook



+1. Haven't brewed since the Sodium Met days and, now I'm back again have been using Woolies cheap bleach (not the lemon scented! Maybe they should bring out a beer scented  ). On to my 11th brew and not a dud brew or dud bottle yet. But rinse well! I found in the old days that the only trouble I ever had with infections was if I left a fermenter for a couple of days after bottling, or left bottles overnight before cleaning.

I now have 2 golden rules: beer sits tantalisingly in jug and NO DRINKIES until the bottle from which it came is washed immediately - usually four vigorous rinses with hot water does the trick: and after any bottling session the very next job is to thoroughly wash and completely rinse fermenter using just a dedicated cloth and ordinary dishwashing liquid then put it on the chlorine until the next brew.

Lets face it if you have just bottled a nice sound brew and thoroughly cleaned out the fermenter there shouldn't be any nasties in there that actually need killing, the sterilizer is just an insurance policy. Ditto bottles (I use 2l PET).


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## tdh

Oxyper (sodium percarbonate) and Proxitane (hydrogen peroxide/sodium carbonate) are my cleaners and sanitisers of choice.

Quick and efficient.

tdh


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## Andyd

If you guys are coming to ANHC, we've got Jon Herskovits (from Five Star Chemicals, Makers of StarSan) coming along to present on all things cleaning and sanitising - should be an interesting talk, and a great opportunity to get some answers straight from the source!

Cheers!

Andy


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## reviled

Andyd said:


> If you guys are coming to ANHC, we've got Jon Herskovits (from Five Star Chemicals, Makers of StarSan) coming along to present on all things cleaning and sanitising - should be an interesting talk, and a great opportunity to get some answers straight from the source!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Andy



Tell him to stop being stink and send his product over to NZ!!!


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## T.D.

Iodophor only needs a dilution rate of 1ml/L whereas Starsan needs 1.5-2ml/L. Iodophor is also cheaper. And compared to acid-based sanitisers its safer to have around the house where there are little tackers running about.

I have used Peracetic acid before and it works beautifully, but it also is dangerous stuff in its undiluted form!

So can I clarify, are some of you guys saying that Napisan is actually non-rinse?


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## therook

T.D. said:


> Iodophor only needs a dilution rate of 1ml/L whereas Starsan needs 1.5-2ml/L. Iodophor is also cheaper. And compared to acid-based sanitisers its safer to have around the house where there are little tackers running about.
> 
> I have used Peracetic acid before and it works beautifully, but it also is dangerous stuff in its undiluted form!
> 
> So can I clarify, are some of you guys saying that Napisan is actually non-rinse?




Napi-San

Napi-San is not a true sanitiser, but does have some sanitising qualities. It is basically made up of Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) and Sodium Percarbonate. Sodium Percarbonate is the active ingredient, while Sodium Carbonate is the emulsifier/detergent agent. Sodium Percarbonate breaks down into Sodium Carbonate and Hydrogen Peroxide. It is this Hydrogen Peroxide that is the sanitising agent in Nappi-San.Nappi-San requires very hot water (above 65*c ) to work effectively. The hot water allows the Peroxide to form, and do its sanitizing

Nappi-San will not stain or attack plastics, metals or glass, however *you will need to rinse it off after use*, although it is non-toxic and you wont die if you dont rinse.

Napi-San makes for one of the best soak cleaners available. It will readily remove organic matter (trub, yeast etc) from brewing gear, and as it does not attack materials (like bleach sometimes can), items can be left to soak for long periods of time without problems.


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## T.D.

Good info Rook, thanks mate!


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## RobW

therook said:


> Napi-San
> 
> Napi-San is not a true sanitiser, but does have some sanitising qualities. It is basically made up of Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) and Sodium Percarbonate. Sodium Percarbonate is the active ingredient, while Sodium Carbonate is the emulsifier/detergent agent. Sodium Percarbonate breaks down into Sodium Carbonate and Hydrogen Peroxide. It is this Hydrogen Peroxide that is the sanitising agent in Nappi-San.Nappi-San requires very hot water (above 65*c ) to work effectively. The hot water allows the Peroxide to form, and do its sanitizing
> 
> Nappi-San will not stain or attack plastics, metals or glass, however *you will need to rinse it off after use*, although it is non-toxic and you wont die if you dont rinse.
> 
> Napi-San makes for one of the best soak cleaners available. It will readily remove organic matter (trub, yeast etc) from brewing gear, and as it does not attack materials (like bleach sometimes can), items can be left to soak for long periods of time without problems.



+1 but IMO definitely not an adequate sanitiser. I used it as such twice and both times had infected brews.
When I used it only as a cleaner followed with a no rinse dairy sanitiser I had no more infections.


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## Andyd

therook said:


> Napi-San
> 
> Napi-San is not a true sanitiser, but does have some sanitising qualities. It is basically made up of Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) and Sodium Percarbonate. Sodium Percarbonate is the active ingredient, while Sodium Carbonate is the emulsifier/detergent agent. Sodium Percarbonate breaks down into Sodium Carbonate and Hydrogen Peroxide. It is this Hydrogen Peroxide that is the sanitising agent in Nappi-San.Nappi-San requires very hot water (above 65*c ) to work effectively. The hot water allows the Peroxide to form, and do its sanitizing
> 
> Nappi-San will not stain or attack plastics, metals or glass, however *you will need to rinse it off after use*, although it is non-toxic and you wont die if you dont rinse.
> 
> Napi-San makes for one of the best soak cleaners available. It will readily remove organic matter (trub, yeast etc) from brewing gear, and as it does not attack materials (like bleach sometimes can), items can be left to soak for long periods of time without problems.



Yeah - Napisan does have some sanitising properties, but it suffers because it definietely needs to be rinsed before you use the vessel... and rinsing is sure to introduce bugs unfortunately.

In fact, one of the biggest mistakes made by people starting out with Iodophor is they don't trust the no-rinse properties, and decide to rinse - and that negates everything you've done with the sanitiser.

Go for a good no-rinse sanitiser, and make sure everything you're using is wet with sanitiser before you use it on the cold side.

Regards,

Andy


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## Andyd

reviled said:


> Tell him to stop being stink and send his product over to NZ!!!



There could be some good news on local(ish) supply in the near future.

Andy


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## pablo_h

I couln't find starsan in WA either, got it posted from QLD with no problems.
I haven't tried iodophor, but I've tried bleach, bleach with vinegar, meta bisulphate etc, none of those beers ever came out good. I've only started making good beers since I've brewed in foamy starsan.
I'm even taking it to work diluted with demineralised water in a trigger pack. Every time I get sent to a smelly a/c (caused by bacteria) the coil gets a load of starsan sprayed onto it to sanatise for a few minutes, then a few sprays of 'nilodour' odour remover.


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## reviled

Andyd said:


> Yeah - Napisan does have some sanitising properties, but it suffers because it definietely needs to be rinsed before you use the vessel... and rinsing is sure to introduce bugs unfortunately.
> 
> In fact, one of the biggest mistakes made by people starting out with Iodophor is they don't trust the no-rinse properties, and decide to rinse - and that negates everything you've done with the sanitiser.
> 
> Go for a good no-rinse sanitiser, and make sure everything you're using is wet with sanitiser before you use it on the cold side.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Andy



I managed to get some iodophor, but I must admit, ive been to scared to no rinse it, all those bubbles scare me... Does anyone else leave the bubbles in the bottles and just put beer in with it?


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## Cortez The Killer

All my kegs I fill have bubbles left in them from the idophor hit, as do my cubes before filling

I haven't perceived any taste or ill effects

From my understanding the dairy industry uses something similar through their systems - I couldn't imagine them going the the trouble to rinse a no rinse sanitiser

Cheers


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## Stuster

It's fine to no-rinse. I do try to make sure everything is left to drain a little before use, but I certainly use things which are still wet with iodophor solution as well. With the amount of iodophor you have in solution and how little liquid there is left, there's no influence on taste (or your body) by doing this.


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## geoffi

reviled said:


> I managed to get some iodophor, but I must admit, ive been to scared to no rinse it, all those bubbles scare me... Does anyone else leave the bubbles in the bottles and just put beer in with it?



Fear not. If you're using the recommended dilution, you won't have a problem.


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## reviled

Cortez The Killer said:


> All my kegs I fill have bubbles left in them from the idophor hit, as do my cubes before filling
> 
> I haven't perceived any taste or ill effects
> 
> From my understanding the dairy industry uses something similar through their systems - I couldn't imagine them going the the trouble to rinse a no rinse sanitiser
> 
> Cheers



What ive been thinking tho, is with a keg the amount would be much less per amount of beer than in bottles, does anyone here bottle with it? Or are you all onto kegs...

Man I want a keg set up so bad


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## Stuster

I bottle with it and have no issues with it. Just let the bottles drain for a few minutes and away you go.


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## reviled

Stuster said:


> I bottle with it and have no issues with it. Just let the bottles drain for a few minutes and away you go.



Allright youve convinced me, next brew from start to bottles im gonna no rinse and see how I go B) 

PS, I hate you all if its ruined :lol: hahaha, jokin...


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## braufrau

Here's a linky to a press release about the bleach/vinegar thingy

The thing that worries me about starsan (or the ersatz starsan I've got) is that if it pools under the bottle, from drips, it ruins your benches!


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## therook

braufrau said:


> Here's a linky to a press release about the bleach/vinegar thingy
> 
> The thing that worries me about starsan (or the ersatz starsan I've got) is that if it pools under the bottle, from drips, it ruins your benches!




good link Braufrau, there are so many different stories with how much to mix, this bloke quotes 1 cup to 1 gallon yet on this forum people have quoted 30 mls to 20 litres......gets confusing sometimes :huh: 

Rook


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## mwd

I have also seen 30ml to 20l and add the 30ml vinegar AFTER you have mixed the bleach with water.

1 cup to 1 gallon would probably strip paint or turn black clothes white


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## yardy

the sanitation routine i use now is a good soak in Starsan, rinse, and then a hit with Betadine @ 5ml to 1lt, if I'm kegging a beer i just thoroughly drain the kegs before transfer.
for transferring to primary from the no-chill it's the same but before splashing the wort onto the yeast i give the primary a quick _rinse_ with a small amount of wort from the cube before transfer.
no infections off tastes etc.

probably seems a bit over the top but if it's not broken....

Cheers


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## jojai

Just wondering, what do you reckon a place like Mountain Goat do about sanitation? Surely 99% of sanitation options are chemical based, which would void their organic status. Steam maybe? I was thinking of getting one of those steam cleaners for my home brew as I would rather reduce chemical usage...


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## Pumpy

I soak in napisan overnight rinse in cold water well then rinse in boiling water before use 


pumpy


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## reviled

Pumpy said:


> I soak in napisan overnight rinse in cold water well then rinse in boiling water before use
> 
> 
> pumpy



Ive been using Napisan as a cleaner, soaking overnight, but after rinsing well use iodophor...

Do you not use a sanitiser? Just napisan and a rinse?


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## crells

I believe things are pretty sanitary after using sodium perbcaronate. But I too give a iodophor shot afterwards. Usually I also add in my tubing when I do this.


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## Pumpy

reviled said:


> Ive been using Napisan as a cleaner, soaking overnight, but after rinsing well use iodophor...
> 
> Do you not use a sanitiser? Just napisan and a rinse?




I think Napisan is a cleaner, then I use the Boiling water as the sanitiser so far so good three years .

pumpy


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## Ducatiboy stu

Because it breaks down into peroxide, it does have a sanitising affect


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## wakkatoo

just on iodophor. Basic brewing did a great podcast on that on 22/3/2007.Linky

Been meaning to get some to try.

I do exactly the same as pumpy, soak in napisan overnight then rinse in boiling. I always feel so guilty using that much water so I really want to go to Iodophor.

Never had an issue with napisan except for one keg that I did not rinse properly - damn thing tasted like Fizz Wizz gone bad!


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## Ducatiboy stu

Low concentrations of bleach should evaporate easly....escpecially if use with hot water


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## braufrau

The one cup of bleach per gallon thing was for an outbreak of anthrax in the kitchen. Happens to me all the time!

So 30ml in 19l = 40ml in my fermenter ... round up a bit = 1/4cup.
OK .. round up a lot.

I'm a bit tempted to throw out the starsan before it ruins another bench top!


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## chestynuts

Ok, Based on what I've read Napisan is a cleaning agent and a mild sanitising agent. According to the link. The active ingredient sodium percarbonate breaks down to sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide. The hydrogen peroxide breaks down further to oxygen and water, 2H2O2 => 2H2O + O2. So whats left when using Napisan is basically water and sodium carbonate. 

Why then have some people recomended that you need to rinse after using it as sodium carbonate is used for cooking (food additive E500). It's not dangerous and mainly affects the pH of the solution its in (Might change the taste slightly but the quantities left in the fermenter would be to tiny IMO to change it drastically). It's used in sherbert and I ate that when a kid and didn't keel over. 

What I do is use the pink sanitiser then rinse then use sodium percarbonate and no-rinse and haven't had an infection yet. 

Each to their own what they do as long as you get good beer in the end.


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## Hatchy

How well do you need to rinse bottles after soaking with sodium percarbonate? Mrs Hatchy decided to "help out" one day when I was at work & pulled out all of the bottles that had been soaking. If she took them out of the sod perc & left them upside down then should they have had a rinse prior to draining or will the rinse they get with starsan prior to bottling do the job OK? I'm just wondering if they need another soak, then a rinse prior to be put in with there friends to wait to be refilled. They've been sitting in a corner for a while so I can work out what to do with them & figured I should ask the question here.


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## Bribie G

I don't know what sodium carbonate actually tastes like, haven't been game to try the Perc aftertaste. However Napisan contains a lot of other stuff, only being around 30% perc. I always rinse, then shake with some norinse Starsan. Maybe segregate four or five bottles in a brew, don't rinse the napisan, and see what difference you get? I suppose at worst they could turn out a bit salty or something. 


OK in the name of science I am actually bludging here because I'm supposed to be washing out bottles and equipment right now so I'll do the perc test (I have some *pure* perc)

BribieG goes into garage where the kegerator is as well so not a totally wasted trip B) 


Well, well well............... I diluted a pinch in a half a schooner of water and dipped finger in and tasted , probably about the concentration it would end up when doing a perc cleaning job, and a slightly sweetish taste but apart from that, nothing to complain about. A little like very much diluted icing sugar maybe? However I'm not game to try the Napisan - I'll leave that you you


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## Effect

Hatchy said:


> How well do you need to rinse bottles after soaking with sodium percarbonate? Mrs Hatchy decided to "help out" one day when I was at work & pulled out all of the bottles that had been soaking. If she took them out of the sod perc & left them upside down then should they have had a rinse prior to draining or will the rinse they get with starsan prior to bottling do the job OK? I'm just wondering if they need another soak, then a rinse prior to be put in with there friends to wait to be refilled. They've been sitting in a corner for a while so I can work out what to do with them & figured I should ask the question here.




I'm pretty sure you should give it a rinse with plain water at the same temp that you used to soak em with...or maybe that is just PBW...


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## felten

I don't like the feel or the smell of the residue that is left behind when I wash stuff with sod perc (I have the pure stuff as well) so I always wash it off.


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## ballzac

Is there a connection between use of Sodium Percarbonate products and poor head retention? This may not necessarily be from the Sodium Percarbonate if there are other chemicals in the product.

I had quite a few brews with very poor head retention, and realised that a common element may be the use of Sodium Percarbonate products. I rinse very well, for long after the sliminess has gone, before sanitising.

I have since stopped using these products, and just use _very_ hot water to wash my equipment well, prior to sanitising (with iodophor). None of my brews since then have this problem, so regardless of what people say, I am unlikely to ever go back to using it. I can see that it may be of some use when collecting bottles from the tip or something, but I see no reason to use these products as a regular part of your cleaning routine. Hot (almost boiling) water makes light work of even the toughest krauesen ring.

I was using unscented generic 'napisan' and have tried at least three different brands. Just curious what others think, as I haven't seen head retention mentioned in relation to Sodium percarbonate.


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