# Crown Urn BIAB or Grainfather



## Liam_snorkel (11/12/14)

nothing wrong with BIAB in an urn (it's what I run) - but the grainfather is good bling for the buck. If I had a spare grand I'd get one.


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## panzerd18 (11/12/14)

Hi all, after experimenting with a few kits, I really want to try some all grain brews. I have decided I can go down two roads. Originally I was set to get a 40L Crown Urn and use it for BIAB. However with the Grainfather released I could eventually afford it sometime next year.

Although the Grainfather will work out double the cost after I get the Urn, plate chiller, would it be worth the wait? 

Is anyone able to tell me the limitations of BIAB on a Crown Urn and some things the Grainfather can do, that I wouldn't be able to do on a Crown Urn?


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## JDW81 (11/12/14)

There are heaps of threads on both, here are just 2:

Grain father

BIAB

These should give you an idea of the pros ad cons of each.


JD


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## taztiger (11/12/14)

I've been BAIB for a couple of years with the Crown urn, mostly no chill. Contemplating buying a Grainfather and using my urn just for sparge water for sheer convenience of the system, temperature control, chiller supplied etc. I had already started accumulating gear to modify my urn to get some of these features but the Grainfather seems like an easier solution by the time you buy bits and pieces and assemble. My Urn and Bag have served me well but i think the Grainfather will be the next step for me.
cheers
Taztiger


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## HBHB (11/12/14)

If the $ are the driving factor, go the Crown Urn first and once the wallet is a little fatter, you could upgrade while using the crown urn for sparge water etc.

BIAB is cheap, effective and a great way to get into AG brewing. I'll certainly be keeping my various BIAB rigs for a rainy day when I want to run multiple brews at the same time.

If it gets you there quicker.....go the urn.

If efficiency is an issue and you're time poor and have very limited space, then go the GF. They both have positives and negatives with the GF unit having a few less negatives.


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## jonnir (11/12/14)

Its a funny thing. I went straight for 3v but in essence if i wanted to brew 2 x different brews at the same time I've got 2 Biab Rigs at my disposal! Never thought of it that way but its pretty cool!

What's even better is that I got a bigger pot recently that's going to be used for double batch boils. That's 3 x biab rigs i've got now! So cool


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## real_beer (11/12/14)

You should also take into account if you going to recirculate the BIAB system or build a hoist for draining the bag, whether basic or more sturdy. All the fittings and bits and pieces add up quickly if you have to buy them at a retail level. If I was just getting into the hobby now I'd sit in on a few brew days or watch lots of YouTube vids, then visit the stores that sell the automatic system when they show them being used, most do. I can say now that if I was going down the automatic path I wouldn't build it myself again if saving money was my main motive. The manufactured units might seem expensive but they turn out to be great value when the initial shock of their price wears off and are examined more closely, plus the manufactures and suppliers seem more than happy to address any problems a customer has.

You might as well know now that if you get bitten by the all grain bug your wallet is also going to be bitten for many years to come. So find a retail supplier you trust and give him your credit cards so you'll be able to get any equipment and supplies you may, or may not need instantly. 

Your probably not going to be happy until you have:
Your own grain mill 
2 to 20.......... 30 ...........? Cornelius Kegs.
CO2 Bottle or 6.
1 to ? tap Kegerator. 
A host of temperature controllers.
Heating belts and pads.
Basic followed by high-tech thermometers.
1 to ? Stainless Steel Conical Fermenter's.
Multiple fridges or even a cold room.
Transfer & reticulation pumps.
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Plastic bins followed by Silo Storage for your grains.[/SIZE]
Dedicated brew shed and bar complete with its own toilet facilities to save the missus floor, wall, and ceiling cleaning duties in the house.
Backyard Hop Farm ......... followed by an apple orchard for your cider ..............and bees for your meads.
Smoke-house, dehydrators.
A Vacuum Sealer or ?
Most brewing gadgets and equipment you see other people are selling day to day on the net or forums.
Undertake world tours to discover the subtle nuances needed to apply to a particular style of beer you wish to create.
etc. ......etc. ....... etc. 

All leading to the eventual conclusion of you building your[SIZE=13.63636302948px] own Craft Brewery![/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Then you can:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]​Start [/SIZE]supplying your local restaurants with kegs of your loving creations.
Buy a high speed bottling and labelling machine for nation-wide distribution.
Add a restaurant of your own and create many new jobs in the process.
Book gigs on 'Basic Brewing Radio', 'BeerSmith Home Brewing', 'The Brewing Network', podcasts.
Start your own podcast, brewing software offering, or on-line brew shop.

Make sure you choose your partner wisely because they'll have to live with a truly focused and obsessed lunatic for many years to come ........... maybe even the rest of their life!

:icon_cheers:


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## taztiger (11/12/14)

Apart from the last paragraph, if there were tick boxes on that list I'd have a whole lot of ticks. It's a slippery slope!!


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## panzerd18 (11/12/14)

Thanks all so much for your help. I'm in two minds, because Grain and Grape have a 10-20% off special at the moment, so I could pick up a lot of equipment in regards to BIAB.

The special ends on Saturday.


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## tavas (11/12/14)

Go BIAB now.

Simpler, less variables to worry about and you will be able to on sell the gear (or re utilise it)at a later stage when you decide you want to upgrade. By then you will have an idea of what size you want, and how how much involvement which may dictate a completely different system to these two (i.e. 3V, HERMS, RIMS).

Neither BIAB nor Grainfather will make better beer compared to the other. That will depend on your brewing ability.

Do not discount the fact that all grain can take up to 5 hours depending on clean up etc, so you might find after a couple of brews that its not for you.


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## Bribie G (11/12/14)

BIAB and other systems such as Braumeister or HERMS are only one stage in the grain to brain conveyor belt. Namely, the wort production stage. One of the most awful infected beers I have ever tasted was from a Braumeister and one of the best was from an extract brewer. This year in the NSW State comp the best India Pale Ale and the best American Pale Ale were from a brewer using a Big W stockpot.

A lot of brewers are into the tech side of things and their lives revolve around PIDs and Arduinos, others love their can opener and as we speak someone somewhere is just sitting with an ale and gazing lovingly on their HERMS or RIMS chugging away.

Myself, I'm rusted-on BIAB and no interest in changing - it's a great way to do all grain wort and if you decide later to move sideways into another method of wort production then you haven't invested too much in kit.


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## Guysmiley54 (11/12/14)

I agree with Tavas.

If you haven't brewed all grain beer before, BIAB is a great way to experience the process in a simple inexpensive fashion. I recently designed and built (or rather had the guy at my LHBS build!) an ideal 2V recirculating rig which suits my needs for half of the price of a Grainfather. 4 years experience with BIAB taught me how to make beer and helped me to understand what processes are important to me in refining and improving my technique.

Having said all of that... If money is not an issue (resale should be decent for a while anyway?) the Grainfather looks like the entry level system to beat!


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## Cocko (11/12/14)

^^ This.

precisely. 


IMO.


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## moodgett (12/12/14)

Ive slipped down my slope of extract with steeping grains and partial mashes relatively quickly. All done on stovetop as many others start out. Ive decided (with the financial ministers support) on making the splurge to a grainfather for my transition to all grain. Maybe try out partial mashing on a stovetop to get a good feel for mashing in to see the extra parts of the process you will have to learn. Bribie has a great guide on pimping out a kit/extract with partial mash. That way you can learn the process before outlaying a whole lot of cash


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## panzerd18 (12/12/14)

Hmm, can't seem to make up my mind. 

The Crown Urn BIAB will be cheaper, but the Grainfather is a turn key system straight out of the box....


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## moodgett (12/12/14)

panzerd18 said:


> Grainfather is a turn key system straight out of the box....


 that's what sold me


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## tavas (12/12/14)

You will still need to learn about mashing and mash profiles with either.

Either will work. One is cheaper than the other. If you can afford it and don't think you will want to upgrade later, then go the GF. If money's tight then go BIAB and get the GF later. Its that simple. This isn't a technical question, its a financial one. 

Neither will make the beer for you. Neither will make better beer. YOU make the beer. 

Only 2 things make better beer - brewing without pants and using a red bucket. These have been proven on this forum time after time.


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## taztiger (12/12/14)

I notice they have made their Oz site live now. Pity it's not free shipping for us like the Kiwis when spending over $100. Better for the local brew shops anyway i suppose.


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## real_beer (14/12/14)

taztiger said:


> I notice they have made their Oz site live now. Pity it's not free shipping for us like the Kiwis when spending over $100. Better for the local brew shops anyway i suppose.


You must look at the big picture and take into account that there's only about 10 Kiwi's left in New Zealand, so even if they all bought one they wouldn't be out much money with free delivery.


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## Bribie G (14/12/14)

panzerd18 said:


> Hmm, can't seem to make up my mind.
> 
> The Crown Urn BIAB will be cheaper, but the Grainfather is a turn key system straight out of the box....


Crown is a turn key system as well, provided you have pre-armed yourself with a bag and a thermometer. Cake rack helps as well.


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## Cervantes (14/12/14)

tavas said:


> Only 2 things make better beer - brewing without pants and using a red bucket. These have been proven on this forum time after time.


That's where I've been going wrong.......................

I've been using a white bucket h34r:


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## mckenry (14/12/14)

I'm a 3V brewer myself, but I remember a few saying BIAB can get messy, hoisting, moving dripping bags etc.
There must be ways to avoid it, but I'd aso imagine the GF would be clean brewing.


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## Bribie G (14/12/14)

how do you empty the grain from a GF?


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## meathead (14/12/14)

Lift the basket and tip it out


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## DU99 (14/12/14)

Drip,Drip..from the basket..is any system 100%..Bm you have to empty


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## Bribie G (14/12/14)

I suppose it's a bit like hoist the bag, empty next to the choko vine then rinse. As I did ten minutes ago, brewing tonite.


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## HBHB (14/12/14)

I just have a 25L bucket beside the unit and after the sparse runs through, drop it I. There and carry it to the garden or compost heap in the bucket.


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## Bribie G (14/12/14)

Aha, two buckets to rinse. I pissed higher. 





B)


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## Bribie G (14/12/14)

actually as I posted on another thread, if and when Crownie dies I'd personally look at a GF for its compactness and ease of use etc. However we are advising the OP in this thread and it's really a question of looking at the pros and cons of each system before shelling out the moolah to get into their first all grain setup.


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## indica86 (14/12/14)

Go the Urn to learn then decide what you want when you have more coin.
The Urn is freakin amazing piece of kit.
Also if you want to 3V you can use it as the kettle or HLT.


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## Tahoose (14/12/14)

I was very impressed with this simple setup.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/83760-adding-recirculation-my-easy-urn-upgrade/#entry1240432

So if you did end up getting an urn you could always do a bit of DIY down the track.


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## panzerd18 (15/12/14)

Not really interested in a 3V system as it just takes up too much space.

Also as money is tight I would prefer to just get one system and stick with it instead of buying an urn and having to spend more money later.

The Grain and Grape special has come and gone and I didn't purchase anything.

I am definitely interested in the Grainfather but I would prefer to wait until it can be further improved. Maybe consider purchasing one in the second half of next year.

So far it seems from the advice of this thread, both can make equal beers with the Grainfather being a complete package and less hassle.


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## Nizmoose (15/12/14)

panzerd18 said:


> Not really interested in a 3V system as it just takes up too much space.
> 
> Also as money is tight I would prefer to just get one system and stick with it instead of buying an urn and having to spend more money later.
> 
> ...


If you're pretty set on a GF but want to see an improved version (a reasonably smart idea I think) why not go a really cheap option such as a simple electric or burner powered kettle and BIAB on the cheap, nail down some good technque before making the 'jump' to the GF? I think its good to do things the 'harder' way first anyway as it allows you to understand the processes perhaps a little better? For less than $100 dollars I'm doing 10L BIAB AG batches and I'm loving it. The only thing restricting my volume is that I'm using a 19L pot. So if you're not quite sure on the GF yet or are hoping it'll improve, grab a burner and pot or an electric kettle from someone for 80 bucks and enjoy All Grain brewing until you're absolutely sure you want to commit to the GF. Read and watch every review you can and see whether you think a new and improved verion may come out.


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## panzerd18 (16/12/14)

I am considering getting a Big W 19L pot and doing some BIAB. The only issue is I have no way of cooling after the boil other than getting an expensive wort chiller.

I have heard some people fill a sink up with iced water and drop the pot in to cool, but I would have thought it wouldn't cool quick enough and there may be problems with DMS.


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## moodgett (16/12/14)

panzerd18 said:


> I am considering getting a Big W 19L pot and doing some BIAB. The only issue is I have no way of cooling after the boil other than getting an expensive wort chiller.
> 
> I have heard some people fill a sink up with iced water and drop the pot in to cool, but I would have thought it wouldn't cool quick enough and there may be problems with DMS.


I have been cooling in the sink for a while now. About 9 odd litres of finished undiluted wort. This takes about 30-40 mins on average to get to 25-30 degrees. Then when diluted will bring it down again. I haven't had any issues using this method as many others 

Also if you want to get experience in wort production on stovetop. But still want to produce 20 odd litres of beer. Give partial mashing a go


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## Nizmoose (16/12/14)

panzerd18 said:


> I am considering getting a Big W 19L pot and doing some BIAB. The only issue is I have no way of cooling after the boil other than getting an expensive wort chiller.
> 
> I have heard some people fill a sink up with iced water and drop the pot in to cool, but I would have thought it wouldn't cool quick enough and there may be problems with DMS.


If I can add to moodgett's comment I also use an ice bath for cooling 10L of wort (I do 10L batches AG) and have been able to get my wort from ~90C down to 20C in about 25 minutes. A day or two before I half-fill plastic shopping bags with water then chuck them in the chest freezer. I have a removed laundry sink in the shed which I sit outside and initially I add just straight tap water to cool the wort somewhat, this prevents wasting ice as when the wort is 90C the 25C tap water take a lot of the temp out without wasting ice, once that water gets hot (fairly quickly) I drain it all then fill up again with normal temp water, this lot gets less hot but once I'm happy it's done most of what it was going to do I then drain it and take to my giant ice blocks with a hammer and get the ice in with enough tap water to have the ice suspended, move the pot around the ice bath for about 15 minutes and it should chill really quickly.


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## kaiserben (16/12/14)

panzerd18 said:


> I am considering getting a Big W 19L pot and doing some BIAB. The only issue is I have no way of cooling after the boil other than getting an expensive wort chiller.
> 
> I have heard some people fill a sink up with iced water and drop the pot in to cool, but I would have thought it wouldn't cool quick enough and there may be problems with DMS.


Just pour hot wort straight into a no-chill cube. Don't stress about DMS or HSA.


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## moodgett (16/12/14)

kaiserben said:


> Just pour hot wort straight into a no-chill cube. Don't stress about DMS or HSA.


I'm sorry, but recommending someone pour 10 litres of sticky boiling wort into a cube is not a responsible comment...


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## kaiserben (16/12/14)

How so? I do this every brew and have had no adverse effects besides irresponsible forum postings.


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## moodgett (16/12/14)

Well my first thought is personal safety


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## tavas (16/12/14)

Search "no chill" on here. Its safer than you are thinking.


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## moodgett (16/12/14)

tavas said:


> Search "no chill" on here. Its safer than you are thinking.


Ok my apologies if I am hitting nerves here. The main thing I'm getting at is pouring from a stock pot with very hot wort into a container with a small opening. Dont think it would be a great intro to AG needing to go to the burns unit.


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## Liam_snorkel (16/12/14)

funnel.


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## kaiserben (16/12/14)

I thought this a bit obvious to mention, but I pour through a wide-mouthed funnel. Others siphon using silicon hose/tubing.


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## kaiserben (16/12/14)

I'm currently BIABing in a 19L Big W stock pot. Pouring the hot wort into a 10L cube. "No chilling" then pitching the yeast directly into the cube. 

It could not be easier and I'd recommend this method as the cheapest and easiest for anyone just starting out - and with limited time and space. 

I've done about a dozen brews this way, but I'm expecting Santa to deliver a Grainfather this week (so much of that methodology above will be changing)


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## tavas (16/12/14)

Silicon hose


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## Tahoose (16/12/14)

And did anybody mention a tap?


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## welly2 (16/12/14)

moodgett said:


> I'm sorry, but recommending someone pour 10 litres of sticky boiling wort into a cube is not a responsible comment...


I fail to see how this is in any way irresponsible considering the number of people who no-chill without complaints of burning themselves. Indeed, I did just this a couple of weeks ago. Skin all intact. It's not as if you stand with your boiling kettle above the cube pouring carefully and hoping not to spill. If you (the no-chill cuber) have a modicum of nouse, you'd realise that.


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## hotmelt (16/12/14)

Buy an urn and make your own BigWurn Father.


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## moodgett (16/12/14)

welly2 said:


> I fail to see how this is in any way irresponsible considering the number of people who no-chill without complaints of burning themselves. Indeed, I did just this a couple of weeks ago. Skin all intact. It's not as if you stand with your boiling kettle above the cube pouring carefully and hoping not to spill. If you have a modicum of nouse, you'd realise that.


I now realise that challenging something is clearly not acceptable. Some things to consider. The OP is a kit brewer, he may not have done a wort boil. Clearly he wants to learn and find out info. But one thing you shouldn't assume that just just because many other people do something without incident, doesnt mean it'll never happen. And we are actually talking about holding a kettle of hot wort and pouring it into a cube.


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## Feldon (16/12/14)

I think Moodgett's heart is in the right place.

Advice to a newbie to carry out a process that is hazardous without a cautionary note of the right way to do it is IMVHO bordering on the irresponsible.

Its easy to forget that we were all ignorant once and newbies should be guided towards not just good brewing, but good, safe brewing.

(In a similar vein I've read recent posts about cleaning vessels and people have brazenly said things like 'hot caustic works best', with no advice on how to safely store, mix, use, and dispose of caustic soda.)


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## Cervantes (16/12/14)

hotmelt said:


> Buy an urn and make your own BigWurn Father.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like this. Is there a build thread?


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## welly2 (16/12/14)

moodgett said:


> And we are actually talking about holding a kettle of hot wort and pouring it into a cube.


No we're not  We're talking about feeding the wort through a silicone tube into a cube. Does anyone actually hold the kettle? Surely not.. :unsure:

But as Feldon said, I think your intentions are in the right place!


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## crowmanz (16/12/14)

welly2 said:


> No we're not  We're talking about feeding the wort through a silicone tube into a cube. Does anyone actually hold the kettle? Surely not.. :unsure:
> 
> But as Feldon said, I think your intentions are in the right place!


For my first AG BIAB I no chilled, safely lifted and poured 2 x 19L pots through a funnel (and strainer) into the cube. It was probably safer than carrying my 2 pots to the sink to chill.


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## bradsbrew (16/12/14)

More importantly do not pour hot wort from the kettle straight into cube/fermenter that is sitting on the kitchen floor. Floor vinyl melts and wives don't forget.


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## Bribie G (16/12/14)

10L Bunnings cubes are excellent, if you get into full volume then two of them make ideal no chill cubes for a keg sized brew, and cool down a lot quicker than a single cube (surface to volume ratio).

Use funnel in your case.


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## Tahoose (16/12/14)

bradsbrew said:


> More importantly do not pour hot wort from the kettle straight into cube/fermenter that is sitting on the kitchen floor. Floor vinyl melts and wives don't forget.


 :icon_offtopic: On a different tangent, be careful when using acid based sanitisers near kitchen benches.


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## tavas (16/12/14)

Bandito has that covered
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/46124-saniclean-stained-my-kitchen-bench/#entry653542


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## hathro (16/12/14)

The only burn I've received from no-chilling was jamming my knee into the cube to expel the air whilst wearing shorts. Nothing serious, just an ouch moment, followed by a "you knobhead" moment.


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## Bomber Watson (16/12/14)

Moodgett must be an OH&S officer.

They get payed to forget that people have brains and go out of there way to ban things that anyone who has enough intelligence to be classified as a being above a carrot can generally figure out the potential dangers of and ways around them themselves with no word being spoken...... 

Cheers.


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## Pogierob (16/12/14)

Spend $50 and get a tap and silicone hose, whack it onto the pot, job done... no mess, no fuss transistion into the CUBE OF DEATH!!!!!


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## panspermian (16/12/14)

Thought this would be an appropriate pic at this point in the thread.
Tap cost $60


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## Bomber Watson (16/12/14)

wow. 

I purchased three of those taps recently from my local hydraulics/plumbing joint for $15 each...Granted didnt have the (I assume no weld fitting) or the brass (looking) barb but there about $10 combined...And i so wouldnt use a brass barb personally.


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## moodgett (16/12/14)

Lol that'll teach me for having an opinion...


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## Bomber Watson (16/12/14)

NW mate. 

I frequently take what i class as obvious for granted, and know that sometimes the sheerly obvious factor isnt that apparent to some people....So appreciate your OP. 

Really i just felt like having a bitch about OH&S officers.....

Cheers.


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## SBOB (16/12/14)

hotmelt said:


> Buy an urn and make your own BigWurn Father.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


are there more details on this setup anywhere?


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## welly2 (17/12/14)

panspermian said:


> Thought this would be an appropriate pic at this point in the thread.
> Tap cost $60
> 
> 
> ...


$60? I hope not.


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## TheWiggman (17/12/14)

tavas said:


> Bandito has that covered
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/46124-saniclean-stained-my-kitchen-bench/#entry653542


He truly is the gift that keeps on giving.


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## dark_brew (19/12/14)

SBOB said:


> are there more details on this setup anywhere?


http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/84238-bigwurn-father/#entry1249573


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## stux (25/2/15)

real_beer said:


> You should also take into account if you going to recirculate the BIAB system or build a hoist for draining the bag, whether basic or more sturdy. All the fittings and bits and pieces add up quickly if you have to buy them at a retail level. If I was just getting into the hobby now I'd sit in on a few brew days or watch lots of YouTube vids, then visit the stores that sell the automatic system when they show them being used, most do. I can say now that if I was going down the automatic path I wouldn't build it myself again if saving money was my main motive. The manufactured units might seem expensive but they turn out to be great value when the initial shock of their price wears off and are examined more closely, plus the manufactures and suppliers seem more than happy to address any problems a customer has.
> 
> You might as well know now that if you get bitten by the all grain bug your wallet is also going to be bitten for many years to come. So find a retail supplier you trust and give him your credit cards so you'll be able to get any equipment and supplies you may, or may not need instantly.
> 
> ...


Great list... little bit concerned


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## MastersBrewery (7/3/15)

Stux said:


> Great list... little bit concerned


yeah!!! he missed some stuff,
stir plates, and all the glassware to go with it,
beer filters,
scales accurate enough to weigh out nose candy, more scales for the grain bill,
the minni pub in the double garage (on the way), with pool table of course.
then there's the stuff you got stored for the next build( 100l pot, 90l pot, spare stainless bits).
And if your a bit of a tech nut you'll take on a project like the one I'm halfway through(but broke my hand so atleast 6 weeks till I start back into it) BrewPi and Raspberry pints running on a 32" TV mounted above the taps on the kegger. I was suposed to pick up the pool table this week but they were putting a cast on my hand at the time.

MB


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## Bribie G (7/3/15)

That list points out exquisitely that Urn / Grainfather / Braumeister etc is only one stage in the journey of the grain from paddock to brain, namely the wort production stage.

In many ways, wort production isn't even the very heart of the brewing process... anecdotally one of the worst infected and manky beers I've ever tasted was from a $3400 Braumeister, whilst the well deserved AIPA winner in the NSW comp last year, that I had the privilege of tasting, even though it was out of the return bottle in the prep area, was brewed as a partial a-la-Woolies $19 stockpot.


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## Brew Forky (7/3/15)

I think the Grain father is a great bit of kit but have to throw my 2 cents in. The Grain father is basically touted as a 1v system and the need for a second vessel is almost brushed over with the hype in most reports. It is a 2v system and this is what put me off obtaining one. Basically you can not make the beer you want with a Grain Father, unless you do other things to make it work properly. Bang, it's finally off my chest.


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## GalBrew (7/3/15)

Even with the sparge urn, less than half the price of a 20L BM. (For the record I own neither).


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## stux (7/3/15)

MastersBrewery said:


> yeah!!! he missed some stuff,
> stir plates, and all the glassware to go with it,
> beer filters,
> scales accurate enough to weigh out nose candy, more scales for the grain bill,
> ...


Stirplate, 0.5, 1, 2 & 5L Erlenmeyer flasks 

Tenth gramscales (great for hops)
1-3000g scales (good for yeast starters)
1g-35KG (great for grain)

Need some better than tenth scales for salt additions

Just bought a welder. I need a brew stand


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## panzerd18 (8/3/15)

Brew Forky said:


> I think the Grain father is a great bit of kit but have to throw my 2 cents in. The Grain father is basically touted as a 1v system and the need for a second vessel is almost brushed over with the hype in most reports. It is a 2v system and this is what put me off obtaining one. Basically you can not make the beer you want with a Grain Father, unless you do other things to make it work properly. Bang, it's finally off my chest.


I don't understand. Why can't you make the beer you want?


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## Bribie G (8/3/15)

Read the "unless" qualification.


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