# Kellerbier



## Muggus (21/4/08)

G'day,

On a recent trip to Germany, I found that alot of the brewers (particularly in Munich) have a Kellerbier on their list. Being the keen drinker I am, I naturally tried a couple. (Paulaner and Ayinger from memory)
Both I thought were particularly good lagers, but very different from a convential German golden lager. Hazy sort of appearance, effervescent body, and I found them particularly spicy and hoppy, slightly fruity even, almost like a Belgian Blone ale at times. Either way, I was quite taken by this style of beer, yet find that its almost unheard of outside of Germany. 

Anyway, so I have a few bottles of a Czech Pilsners I bottled 2 years ago stowed away in my cellar. The reason I haven't drunk them yet is mainly because they were bottled towards the end of the batch, and even though it was racked, they still contain a touch of yeast sediment at the bottom, making me think twice about consumption until this arvo when I decide to chill one and crack it. Immediately after pouring i'm reminded of that allusive style of German lager, the Kellerbier. Same hazy appearance, spicy hops and a subtle 'oxidised' dried fruitiness. 
Is it possible that I inadvertantly brewed a Kellerbier?

Checking the BJCP guide, it appears that Kellerbier is considered a Specialty Beer, so i'm at bit at ends to what I should be expecting from such a beer.

Anyone have any experience with this style?

Cheers
Mike


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## geoffi (21/4/08)

My understanding of Kellerbier is that it is a lager version of a cask-conditioned ale. Hence the yeasty haze. A 'real lager', you might say.


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## Muggus (21/4/08)

Geoffi said:


> My understanding of Kellerbier is that it is a lager version of a cask-conditioned ale. Hence the yeasty haze. A 'real lager', you might say.


Thats a good point. Both of the ones I tried in Munich were draught beers, and the carbonation might suggest they are naturally carbonated like a Real Ale.


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## neonmeate (21/4/08)

mmm now we're talking! kellerbier! tasty stuff. when i went to bamberg a few years back i couldn't believe these beers. huge malt, fruitiness AND big resinous hops - like everything a german lager normally isn't.

my understanding is that they are unfiltered, cask conditioned with low carb, and often dry-hopped. the base wort would be like a hoppy maerzen, amber and munich malty, but with more hops than usual for maerzens. i would love to try to make one, but i have no way to do cask conditioning.
there are some great bottled versions of these beers too, like st georgen, but they aren't as yeasty and OTT as the draught versions.


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## lowtech (21/4/08)

LINK
Sounds interesting! Sort of akin to a cask conditioned pommy ale in essence, except using Euro malt and hops and a lager yeast .wonder if its served on the warmer side or chilled right down?


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## neonmeate (21/4/08)

i think when i had em they were coolish, you know, round the 8-12C mark. usually served in a big silly ceramic mug so hard to tell from holding it in your hand.

the main difference is they can't prime kegs with sugar with the reinheitsgebot so they have to transfer em to serving vessels a few gravity points out from finishing to get the CO2. not sure how this would affect the taste differently to a cask ale if it does.

they certainly tasted very fruity, i wonder if they ferment at higher than usual temps or if this was just the taste of the yeast in suspension?


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## alexbrand (21/4/08)

Muggus said:


> Thats a good point. Both of the ones I tried in Munich were draught beers, and the carbonation might suggest they are naturally carbonated like a Real Ale.


That's exactly the point. Cask conditioning is not a must, but in former times...sure. A Kellerbier (aka "Zoig(e)l" or "Zwickel") is not pressure fermented, not filtered and young.


Ask Zwickel, he's carrying its name... or klick me.

Alex


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## Muggus (21/4/08)

neonmeate said:


> i think when i had em they were coolish, you know, round the 8-12C mark. usually served in a big silly ceramic mug so hard to tell from holding it in your hand.


My experience wasn't as ceremonious it seems.  
They were served chilled in glass mugs...as per most biers over there. Though that was at the very touristy brewpubs of Munich.


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## neonmeate (21/4/08)

info on Mahrs Ungespundet from the late MJ's now defunct beerhunter.com:

Mahr's Bru Ungespundet hefetrub has an alcohol content of around 4.1 percent by weight, 5.2 by volume. It pours with a big, creamy, long-lasting, head; has a golden-bronze color; a wonderfully fresh, perfumy; hop aroma; a remarkably smooth, almost oily, malty, palate; very fresh flavours; and a spritzy finish. It is beautifully balanced, but leans to the dry side. This is a delicious, appetising beer and a true taste of Germany's fast-vanishing artisanal tradition.

For the technically minded: it has an original gravity of 12.5 Plato (1050), is made from pale and Munich malts (beer color 20EBC); with a single mash at low temperatures; hopped with Northern Brewer and Hallertau Tradition (36 units of bitterness); bottom-fermented with a local yeast; and lagered for eight weeks at 0-1C.


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## Whistlingjack (21/4/08)

The zwickel, or kellerbier, we made in Germany was naturally carbonated and therefore had to involve pressure fermentation. The beer was drawn from the zwickel of the fermenter and decanted into kegs.

This was fresh beer and one of my favourite jobs at the brewery...  

WJ


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## neonmeate (21/4/08)

Whistlingjack said:


> The zwickel, or kellerbier, we made in Germany was naturally carbonated and therefore had to involve pressure fermentation.



Interesting, just looking again at that old Michael Jackson article, he says the pressure is the difference between zwickel and kellerbier:

"The beers made in and around Bamberg are especially individualistic. The best-known style of the area is Rauchbier, made with smoked malt, but there are also other local specialities. One is the unfiltered style of lager that is variously known as Zwickelbier, Kellerbier or Ungespundet beer. Each term has a slightly different meaning. "Zwickel" implies simply that the beer was taken from a small tap on the maturation tank; this version tends to be especially hazy. Kellerbier has sometimes has an especially heavy dose of hops, to act as a preservative. The third term means "unbunged," indicating that the maturation was in a vessel open to the atmsphere (ie not controlled by a pressure valve). This makes for a lesser carbonation. With a diminished gassiness, there is less carbonic "bite" on he tongue, so the drinker is more sensitive to the flavours in the beer."

I don't know if this is true in practice. I always thought Zwickel=Ungespundet=Kellerbier. 

edit: actually i see he means ungespundet is the one without pressure.


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## alexbrand (21/4/08)

neonmeate said:


> I don't know if this is true in practice. I always thought Zwickel=Ungespundet=Kellerbier.


That's true. Also "Zoigl" could be added to this list. Just synonyms. The expression used depends on the region where in Germany you are. May be you know that no all Germans tend to speak German at all... 

Alex


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## Zwickel (21/4/08)

to the fermentation Id like to say something: Alex said fermented without pressure and WJ said fermented under pressure, both are right.

For a Zwickel or Keller Bier primary fermentation is hold without any pressure in the first place, mostly even in open fermenters. As soon as the gravity drops to around 2.5P to 3P (~1010 to 1012 SG) the beer gets transferred into lager tanks where the young beer is further fermenting, but now under pressure to hold its own CO2.
All lager tanks have a pressure limiter, we call that a "Spund apparat". 

The "Zwickel" is basically a small faucet on the lager tank where samples get taken.


Thats also the way Im going to ferment all my beers.

Cheers Zwickel lovers


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## Whistlingjack (21/4/08)

Spot on, Zwickel. Couldn't have explained it better. Our zwickel was fermented primarily at atmospheric pressure, then the outflow of CO2 was regulated to allow a build up of pressure toward the end of the fermentation.

To add more clarification to the terms, fermentation rooms are called cellars even in these modern times when they are actually at ground level. The zwickel tap was then always in the "keller". 

The base is most often a bottom fermented beer and lagered for the barest minimum. The cloudiness is due to unfiltered proteins and there is barely any yeast in suspension. 

I sometimes like to think that the brewer, having trouble with excess haze in his pilsner, might decide to serve it unfiltered and call it zwickelbier.

WJ


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## alexbrand (22/4/08)

Zwickel said:


> As soon as the gravity drops to around 2.5P to 3P (~1010 to 1012 SG) the beer gets transferred into lager tanks where the young beer is further fermenting, but now under pressure to hold its own CO2.



Indeed, right. Forgot to mention it, I thought it was clear. Because the bottled Kellerbier is not delivered uncapped... 

Alex


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## Zwickel (22/4/08)

alexbrand said:


> .... Because the bottled Kellerbier is not delivered uncapped...


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## Muggus (19/2/09)

Kind of digging up an old topic I brought up last year, but it seems somewhat relevant to what i'm drinking.

So once again, i'm drinking a dry-hopped lager, left on yeast lees. In comparison to the same beer without the yeast 'trub' in the bottom, this could almost pass as a different beer. Hazy, overtly hoppy and fruity, and more lively with carbonation than its brother.

My question at this point is has anyone else noticed this with bottle conditioned beers containing a good amount of sediment? 
Especially opposed to the same beer without. Because I seriously can't stop ranting about how nice the same beer tastes with that little bit of extra sediment (not too much!).


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## unterberg (19/2/09)

Geht doch nix ber ein gutes frisch gezapftes Kellerbier aka Zwickel!


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## Zwickel (20/2/09)

Unterberg said:


> Geht doch nix ber ein gutes frisch gezapftes Kellerbier aka Zwickel!


thats what I say


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