# Allergic to Chlorine, fluoride and tap water in general



## mickiboi (3/9/15)

Hi all. I'm new to brewing and I am starting on a Coopers Pale ale kit and going to work my way up to all grain when I get the feel of things, however long that may take. But for the moment I just want to make a beer and keg it and work out what to do. I am a distiller and have been making mashes for a while so now I turn to home brew as an extension of my hobby.

I live in Adelaide and the water here is crap, I can't drink it with out breaking out in a rash and boils that would make a pox ridden hooker look like Miss Universe. I have to drink distilled water, which I add a teaspoon (5ml) of saturated Himalayan sea salt water to every litre I drink. You can't taste it and it makes up for the minerals that the distilled water is deficient in.

So now to my question. I have been told I cant brew in distilled water and I have been told that's BS. Apparently all I need to do is to add calcium sulfate to the water (0.5mg/l) to use with a kit and I have been told I don't need to do anything. What's correct here? If I do need to do something to the distilled water in order to use it, what do I do? I sort of need to work this out now as everything I will do will be done with distilled water.

Thanks in advance


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## TheWiggman (3/9/15)

Be forewarned that I think the thread title could considered trollbait and considering this is post #2, I'm both reluctant to pass judgement and a little suspicious. I'll bite my tongue regarding allergies and the like but I think that's where this thread is going to descend.

Distilled water is very suitable, neigh perfect for brewing. It's a clean slate like a blackboard without the black. For ALL GRAIN brewing it will however require salts to be added to achieve the right pH of the mash depending on your brew, as well as adjusting for taste. Generally speaking, dark grains need high pH, light grains need low pH. 

If you're using a kit, distilled water is fine - all the nutrients required are in the tin of goop. No _need_ to adjust unless you want to change the taste.


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## manticle (3/9/15)

Have you been allergy tested to find out what you're actually allergic to?
No point us giving you advice that may put you on the wrong path.

Broadly speaking though, you can strip water of minerals, chlorine, etc and add back minerals that are good for yeast function and other brewing related stuff.
Most useful brewing salts tend to be calcium and zinc related.

Reverse osmosis filters are popular and effective.


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

I'm not a troll mate. Thanks for answering my question.


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## paulyman (3/9/15)

I'd be less worried about using distiller water in brewing and concentrate on visiting a doctor rather than relying on quack science (Himalayan sea salt). Each to their own I suppose.


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

manticle said:


> Have you been allergy tested to find out what you're actually allergic to?
> No point us giving you advice that may put you on the wrong path.
> 
> Broadly speaking though, you can strip water of minerals, chlorine, etc and add back minerals that are good for yeast function and other brewing related stuff.
> Most useful brewing salts tend to be calcium and zinc related.


I have a severe reaction to both chlorine and fluoride. Adelaide tap water is crap, lots of people here can't drink it, don't drink it and won't drink it. I wouldn't drink a home brew made with Adelaide water if you paid me. But I won't start making an all grain home brew until I work out the water chemistry needed. So if you say go ahead and use distilled water for a can of pale ale I will. Thanks for the advice.


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

paulyman said:


> I'd be less worried about using distiller water in brewing and concentrate on visiting a doctor rather than relying on quack science (Himalayan sea salt). Each to their own I suppose.


Its not quack science, the advice comes from a professor at Adelaide University who worked out what was causing me to break out in boils and shit all over. And my health is absolutely fine. Thank you for your concern mate.


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## paulyman (3/9/15)

I am very concerned. I'd be getting a second opinion from a doctor.


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## manticle (3/9/15)

Distilling is not discussed here due to the illegal nature of distillation (without licence and appropriate excise) at a home level.

There is a sister site, hosted elsewhere where you are welcome to discuss such things.
Please stick to brewing talk here.

Reason I ask if you've been tested is not because I doubt you are reacting to something in the water but because if we start advising on treating your water, we may inadvertently get you to consume more of what makes you ill. How do you know it's chlorine as opposed to calcium for instance?

Allergies can be very serious and I'd be reluctant to offer specific advice without specific information.

Worthwhile isolating the definitive cause if you haven't already as it will help make informed decisions about water treatment for brewing.


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

TheWiggman said:


> Be forewarned that I think the thread title could considered trollbait and considering this is post #2, I'm both reluctant to pass judgement and a little suspicious. *I'll bite my tongue regarding allergies and the like but I think that's where this thread is going to descend*.
> 
> Distilled water is very suitable, neigh perfect for brewing. It's a clean slate like a blackboard without the black. For ALL GRAIN brewing it will however require salts to be added to achieve the right pH of the mash depending on your brew, as well as adjusting for taste. Generally speaking, dark grains need high pH, light grains need low pH.
> 
> If you're using a kit, distilled water is fine - all the nutrients required are in the tin of goop. No _need_ to adjust unless you want to change the taste.


Yeah you were right, didn't take long. Thanks for the initial help and advice anyway.



paulyman said:


> I am very concerned. I'd be getting a second opinion from a doctor.


He is a bit smarter than a Dr. Google Professor Andrew Zannettino It's quite common for that to happen to people who come here and drink this shit water and aren't used to it. Once again thanks for the health advice but really I'm fine and very healthy now I don't drink this water out of a tap.


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

Removed the references to you know what.

I'm not asking you to diagnose my health, I have been allergy tested by one of the best in the business and we know what it is. All I asked was is it ok to use distilled water in a coopers pale ale brew kit because I have an allergic reaction to Adelaide water and I drink distilled water because of this. My health is OK so don't worry about this. Any future brewing I do will be done with distilled water. That's it. I think I will find another forum. Thank you


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## manticle (3/9/15)

If you're referring to my post (unsure) you'll see my questions are to make sure you're given the right advice. Please re-read and drop the defensiveness.

Remember no-one knows you from a bar of soap. I'll take you at face value but I don't want to tell you to add calcium sulfate to your hoppy beer unless I know it's not calcium or sulfate you're allergic to.
I understand the chip but remove it because that's not where I'm coming from.


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

manticle said:


> If you're referring to my post (unsure) you'll see my questions are to make sure you're gicen the right advice. Please re-read and drop the defensiveness.


I apologise mate. It's chlorine and fluoride. I have a whole house system to remove the chlorine but the fluoride stays in as everyone knows. I go into anaphylactic shock from the fluoride. I can't drink anything from a shop because I have no idea if the water has had the fluoride removed. There is a well known Sydney beer that uses tap water to brew, I found out the hard way with a trip to St Vincents when my throat swelled up and shut me down within 2 minutes. I guess I should have explained that first.


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## manticle (3/9/15)

Yeah mate no drama. The potential seriousness of allergies is exactly why I want to make sure I'm not leading you up the garden path and into a jumping jacks' nest.


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## manticle (3/9/15)

So yeah - reverse osmosis is your friend to strip chlorine and minerals. You can then add specific minerals back to suit.

I am however unsure about its effect on fluoride levels. You may need to check that. If all good and you are seriously considering AG, then it will be a worthwhile investment. Calcium salts and nutrients containing zinc are available from home brew shops that cater for all grain.

Also the sodium salt additions may be good for drinking water but monitor the level for brewing. A small amount is ok but too much sodium is bad for yeast and can contribute to harsh flavours.


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

No problem mate, this is serious to me. I have lived with this for years. They have no idea how or why this reaction started in me. It happened after I had been living in Adelaide for about 10 years out of the blue. The professor said it was just a toxic accumulation, it happens quite a lot here in Adelaide, the water really is crap. It's at the end of the Murray after every town along the way has dumped it sewage into it and every animal along the way has crapped in it. Turns out I don't get rid of fluoride that easy and I'm at the tipping point.

Thank you to all those that answered. I have some experimenting to do now before I go any further than a can of kit pale ale.


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

RO still leaves traces, it only removes 97-99% depending on the membrane used. I have a steam distillation unit I built from other parts. I run off about 50 litres a week, that keeps me going. I will do a brew tomorrow and see what happens.


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## manticle (3/9/15)

If you've got your own system already that works, then the rest still applies. Calcium salts for ag, some zinc, possibly magnesium (although all malt provides a substantial amount). Sulfate for hoppy beers, chloride (as in calcium salt: calcium chloride - hopefully only free chlorine you react to?) for malty beers.
There's more water chem stuff but wait till you start AG.


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

Thanks manticle. It is only free chlorine. I have a lot to learn about water chemistry and its effects on taste and yeast. I appreciate your help mate.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

Free chlorine evaporates from water easly.

Himalayan sea salt........ No wonder people are being sceptical.


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## manticle (3/9/15)

Pretend it's not himalayan - it's just uniodised sodium chloride which can be a good addition to otherwise mineral free water. Other minerals like magnesium are also worthwhile but OP might have other sources for that.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

Thanks Mants... had me looking at Google maps thinking..." The Himalayas are a long way from the ocean "


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

I can understand your scepticism. However its the closest natural thing there is to the balance of minerals naturally found in healthy, balanced blood when diluted with the correct amount of water. I have been doing this now for about 10 years and my blood results every month are perfect. Yes free chlorine evaporates freely, but when it comes out of the shower my bathroom used to smell like an indoor swimming pool and I started to itch, having trouble breathing and almost collapse.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

manticle said:


> Other minerals like magnesium are also worthwhile but OP might have other sources for that.


Adelaide water has lots of minerals in it, due to where it is sourced from. Thats why it is so hard and is very good for brewing Ales


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

http://themeadow.com/pages/minerals-in-himalayan-pink-salt-spectral-analysis

This is what's in it. I wouldn't do this lightly guys, trust me. I have had one of the best professors work with me for years to find a solution to this crap I have gone through. And it works for me and many others. And I know it says fluoride but there it's so low it ha no affect on me. What's in the tap water here is much much higher. And it is not produced from the waste of aluminium smelting like the fluoride in the water and toothpaste. It's a naturally forming version that is not even molecularly similar.


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## mickiboi (3/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Adelaide water has lots of minerals in it, due to where it is sourced from. Thats why it is so hard and is very good for brewing Ales


But I cant drink it.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> I can understand your scepticism. However its the closest natural thing there is to the balance of minerals naturally found in healthy, balanced blood when diluted with the correct amount of water.


Have you tried Murray River pink salt ?


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## Tex N Oz (4/9/15)

The American Academy of Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology and the Council of the British Society for Allergy and Clinical Immunology have both stated that "there is no evidence of allergy or intolerance to fluoride as used in the fluoridation of water supplies."
Allergy to chlorine is not systemic and only a contact dermatitis. Some people may find a sensitivity to inhaled chlorine from heavily chlorinated water such as a swimming pool. Once free chlorine combines with a protein it becomes inert in your stomach. Usually in the form of mineral salt. 
Your body is full of chlorine mate. Chock a block FULL of the stuff naturally.
So what you are after is healthy beer? Well that's kind of like a smoker being concerned about CO when it's the other shit that's really not good for you.
Adding salt regardless of the source is a huge source of sodium chloride and you risk pulmonary hypertension, chronic heart failure and kidney damage from that practice. It's not the sodium that your body really needs from the water, it's all the other trace elements.

Go see your GP if you have an issue but this isn't the place for it mate. No one here is qualified (or willing if so qualified) to give you health advice.


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## manticle (4/9/15)

Yet people still are: including those that tell him his symptoms are impossible.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

Professor Andrew Zannettino

This guy might be a bit smarter than your average GP




Biography/ Background


[SIZE=12pt]Andrew Zannettino is the [/SIZE]Professor of Experimental Haematology in the Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Adelaide and [SIZE=12pt]heads the Myeloma Research Laboratory (MRL) and co-heads the Regenerative Medicine Program (RMP). The MRL’s efforts centre on identifying the molecular and cellular mechanisms responsible for myeloma disease progression and myeloma-associated bone loss. The RMP stems from collaborative studies in association with Prof Stan Gronthos (Mesenchymal Stem Cell Laboratory, University of Adelaide) and Prof Paul Simmons (Mesoblast Ltd), which led to the patenting of technologies covering the identification and isolation of Mesenchymal Precursor Cells (MPC), a rare cell population present in many post-natal tissues. The family of 7 patents surrounding this technology underpin the world’s largest cell therapy company, Mesoblast Ltd.[/SIZE]

Qualifications
*[SIZE=12pt]1997:[/SIZE]*[SIZE=12pt] Doctor of Philosophy, Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Adelaide.[/SIZE]
*[SIZE=12pt]1992:[/SIZE]*[SIZE=12pt] Honours (First Class), Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Adelaide.[/SIZE]




*[SIZE=12pt]1991:[/SIZE]*[SIZE=12pt] Bachelor of Science, University of Adelaide, South Australia[/SIZE]

Teaching Interests




[SIZE=12pt]Andrew Zannettino teaches Medical, Bachelor of Health Science and post-graduate students in the areas of normal haematology, malignant haematology, cell biology and scientific method.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]In addition, Andrew Zannettino currently supervises a team comprised of 4 independently funded research fellows, 1 NHMRC-funded post-doctoral scientist, 1 Cancer Australia funded post-doctoral scientist, 1 Royal Adelaide Hospital/SA Pathology Myeloma Fellow, 1 Cancer Australia-funded research assistant and 2 technical officers.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Andrew Zannettino has [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]supervised 13 honours, 1 masters and 14 PhD students and currently supervises 5 PhD students and 2 honours students.[/SIZE]




Research Interests
[SIZE=12pt]Myeloma is haematological malignancy characterised by the clonal proliferation of plasma cells, an immune cell type that normally protects us against infection. Myeloma is the second most common blood cancer and more than 100,000 people are diagnosed each year worldwide. Despite recent advances in treatment, myeloma remains almost universally fatal and has a 10-year survival rate of approximately 17%. The main clinical manifestations of myeloma are the development of osteolytic bone lesions, bone pain, hypercalcaemia, renal insufficiency, suppressed immunoglobulin production and increased bone marrow angiogenesis (blood vessel formation). Myeloma is preceded by a premalignant (asymptomatic) monoclonal gammopathy of uncertain significance (MGUS) stage. The factors that trigger the progression from MGUS to myeloma remain to be determined; however, our studies show that both intrinsic genetic changes and extrinsic factors play a role in disease progression. Our laboratory’s research is focussed on detecting the key signalling pathways that are deregulated during disease development and determining what microenvironmental changes occur during disease pathogenesis. We believe that these approaches will enable us to identify new molecular markers of disease risk and to design drugs against novel therapeutic targets.[/SIZE]

*[SIZE=12pt]Current projects are focused on:[/SIZE]*


[SIZE=12pt]Identifying the genetic, transcriptional and epigenetic changes that trigger the progression from asymptomatic MGUS to myeloma[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Determining why the bone marrow is a “hot-spot” for myeloma plasma cell metastasis[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Identifying the mechanisms governing dissemination and relapse in multiple myeloma[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Identifying the role played by the newly described tumour suppressor genes [/SIZE]_GLIPR1_[SIZE=12pt] and [/SIZE]_SAMSN1_[SIZE=12pt] in multiple myeloma development[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Determining the effects of myeloma plasma cells on mesenchymal stem cell differentiation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Assessing the effectiveness of targeting class IIa histone deacetylases (HDAC) to treat myeloma and myeloma-associated bone disease[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Identifying the role of the mTOR pathway in mesenchymal stem cell biology and bone formation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Assessing the effectiveness of targeting skeletal mTORC1 as a novel approach to treat diet-induced insulin resistance[/SIZE]









Research Funding




[SIZE=12pt]Since establishing his laboratory in 2000, Andrew Zannettino has received competitive research funding of more than AUD$12 million and $2.83 million in infrastructure funding and AUD$1.4 million dollars in fellowship support. Notably, he has been awarded a total of 16 NHMRC grants as an investigator valued in excess of $8.5 million. Furthermore, he has received industry funding from sources including Mesoblast, Celgene, Novartis, Zimmer and Johnson & Johnson.[/SIZE]

Publications
*[SIZE=12pt]Research Output:[/SIZE]*




[SIZE=12pt]Andrew Zannettino has co-authored more than 145 refereed publications, book chapters and review articles, many of which are published in premier Haematology and Orthopaedic journals (BLOOD, Leukemia, BJH, JBMR, Bone), Cancer journals (Cancer Research, Clinical Cancer Research) and Stem Cell journals (Cell Stem Cell, Stem Cells). Andrew Zannettino’s publications have received 9411 citations and he has a current H Factor of 51 (Google Scholar).[/SIZE]

*[SIZE=12pt]PUBLICATIONS (2009 – PRESENT)[/SIZE]*

*[SIZE=12pt]PRIMARY RESEARCH PAPERS[/SIZE]*


[SIZE=12pt]Arthur A, Shi S, Zannettino AC, Fujii N, Gronthos S, Koblar SA. Implanted adult human dental pulp stem cells induce endogenous axon guidance. Stem cells. 2009;27(9):2229-2237.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Chung R, Foster BK, Zannettino AC, Xian CJ. Potential roles of growth factor PDGF-BB in the bony repair of injured growth plate. Bone. 2009;44(5):878-885.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Diamond P, Labrinidis A, Martin SK, Farrugia AN, Gronthos S, To LB, Fujii N, O'Loughlin PD, Evdokiou A, Zannettino AC. Targeted disruption of the CXCL12/CXCR4 axis inhibits osteolysis in a murine model of myeloma-associated bone loss. Journal of bone and mineral research : the official journal of the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research. 2009;24(7):1150-1161.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Gronthos S, McCarty R, Mrozik K, Fitter S, Paton S, Menicanin D, Itescu S, Bartold PM, Xian C, Zannettino AC. Heat shock protein-90 beta is expressed at the surface of multipotential mesenchymal precursor cells: generation of a novel monoclonal antibody, STRO-4, with specificity for mesenchymal precursor cells from human and ovine tissues. Stem cells and development. 2009;18(9):1253-1262.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Isenmann S, Arthur A, Zannettino AC, Turner JL, Shi S, Glackin CA, Gronthos S. TWIST family of basic helix-loop-helix transcription factors mediate human mesenchymal stem cell growth and commitment. Stem cells. 2009;27(10):2457-2468.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Labrinidis A, Diamond P, Martin S, Hay S, Liapis V, Zinonos I, Sims NA, Atkins GJ, Vincent C, Ponomarev V, Findlay DM, Zannettino AC, Evdokiou A. Apo2L/TRAIL inhibits tumor growth and bone destruction in a murine model of multiple myeloma. Clinical cancer research : an official journal of the American Association for Cancer Research. 2009;15(6):1998-2009.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]McCarty RC, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC, Foster BK, Xian CJ. Characterisation and developmental potential of ovine bone marrow derived mesenchymal stem cells. Journal of cellular physiology. 2009;219(2):324-333.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Paquet-Fifield S, Schluter H, Li A, Aitken T, Gangatirkar P, Blashki D, Koelmeyer R, Pouliot N, Palatsides M, Ellis S, Brouard N, Zannettino A, Saunders N, Thompson N, Li J, Kaur P. A role for pericytes as microenvironmental regulators of human skin tissue regeneration. The Journal of clinical investigation. 2009;119(9):2795-2806.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Vandyke K, Dewar AL, Farrugia AN, Fitter S, Bik To L, Hughes TP, Zannettino AC. Therapeutic concentrations of dasatinib inhibit in vitro osteoclastogenesis. Leukemia. 2009;23(5):994-997.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Vandyke K, Dewar AL, Fitter S, Menicanin D, To LB, Hughes TP, Zannettino AC. Imatinib mesylate causes growth plate closure in vivo. Leukemia. 2009;23(11):2155-2159.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Zinonos I, Labrinidis A, Lee M, Liapis V, Hay S, Ponomarev V, Diamond P, Zannettino AC, Findlay DM, Evdokiou A. Apomab, a fully human agonistic antibody to DR5, exhibits potent antitumor activity against primary and metastatic breast cancer. Molecular cancer therapeutics. 2009;8(10):2969-2980.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Castrechini NM, Murthi P, Gude NM, Erwich JJ, Gronthos S, Zannettino A, Brennecke SP, Kalionis B. Mesenchymal stem cells in human placental chorionic villi reside in a vascular Niche. Placenta. 2010;31(3):203-212.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Engler JR, Frede A, Saunders V, Zannettino A, White DL, Hughes TP. The poor response to imatinib observed in CML patients with low OCT-1 activity is not attributable to lower uptake of imatinib into their CD34+ cells. Blood. 2010;116(15):2776-2778.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Engler JR, Frede A, Saunders VA, Zannettino AC, Hughes TP, White DL. Chronic myeloid leukemia CD34+ cells have reduced uptake of imatinib due to low OCT-1 activity. Leukemia. 2010;24(4):765-770.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Fitter S, Vandyke K, Schultz CG, White D, Hughes TP, Zannettino AC. Plasma adiponectin levels are markedly elevated in imatinib-treated chronic myeloid leukemia (CML) patients: a mechanism for improved insulin sensitivity in type 2 diabetic CML patients? The Journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism. 2010;95(8):3763-3767.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Ghosh P, Wu J, Shimmon S, Zannettino AC, Gronthos S, Itescu S. Pentosan polysulfate promotes proliferation and chondrogenic differentiation of adult human bone marrow-derived mesenchymal precursor cells. Arthritis research & therapy. 2010;12(1):R28.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Goldschlager T, Ghosh P, Zannettino A, Gronthos S, Rosenfeld JV, Itescu S, Jenkin G. Cervical motion preservation using mesenchymal progenitor cells and pentosan polysulfate, a novel chondrogenic agent: preliminary study in an ovine model. Neurosurgical focus. 2010;28(6):E4.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Martin SK, Diamond P, Williams SA, To LB, Peet DJ, Fujii N, Gronthos S, Harris AL, Zannettino AC. Hypoxia-inducible factor-2 is a novel regulator of aberrant CXCL12 expression in multiple myeloma plasma cells. Haematologica. 2010;95(5):776-784.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Martin SK, Fitter S, Bong LF, Drew JJ, Gronthos S, Shepherd PR, Zannettino AC. NVP-BEZ235, a dual pan class I PI3 kinase and mTOR inhibitor, promotes osteogenic differentiation in human mesenchymal stromal cells. Journal of bone and mineral research : the official journal of the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research. 2010;25(10):2126-2137.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]McCarty RC, Xian CJ, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC, Foster BK. Application of autologous bone marrow derived mesenchymal stem cells to an ovine model of growth plate cartilage injury. The open orthopaedics journal. 2010;4:204-210.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Menicanin D, Bartold PM, Zannettino AC, Gronthos S. Identification of a common gene expression signature associated with immature clonal mesenchymal cell populations derived from bone marrow and dental tissues. Stem cells and development. 2010;19(10):1501-1510.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Psaltis PJ, Carbone A, Nelson AJ, Lau DH, Jantzen T, Manavis J, Williams K, Itescu S, Sanders P, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC, Worthley SG. Reparative effects of allogeneic mesenchymal precursor cells delivered transendocardially in experimental nonischemic cardiomyopathy. JACC Cardiovascular interventions. 2010;3(9):974-983.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Psaltis PJ, Paton S, See F, Arthur A, Martin S, Itescu S, Worthley SG, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC. Enrichment for STRO-1 expression enhances the cardiovascular paracrine activity of human bone marrow-derived mesenchymal cell populations. Journal of cellular physiology. 2010;223(2):530-540.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Vandyke K, Dewar AL, Diamond P, Fitter S, Schultz CG, Sims NA, Zannettino AC. The tyrosine kinase inhibitor dasatinib dysregulates bone remodeling through inhibition of osteoclasts in vivo. Journal of bone and mineral research : the official journal of the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research. 2010;25(8):1759-1770.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Williams SA, Martin SK, Vincent C, Gronthos S, Zheng T, Atkins GJ, Zannettino AC. Circulating levels of TWEAK correlate with bone erosion in multiple myeloma patients. British journal of haematology. 2010;150(3):373-376.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Winkler IG, Barbier V, Wadley R, Zannettino AC, Williams S, Levesque JP. Positioning of bone marrow hematopoietic and stromal cells relative to blood flow in vivo: serially reconstituting hematopoietic stem cells reside in distinct nonperfused niches. Blood. 2010;116(3):375-385.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Zannettino AC, Paton S, Itescu S, Gronthos S. Comparative assessment of the osteoconductive properties of different biomaterials in vivo seeded with human or ovine mesenchymal stem/stromal cells. Tissue engineering Part A. 2010;16(12):3579-3587.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Andersen DC, Kortesidis A, Zannettino AC, Kratchmarova I, Chen L, Jensen ON, Teisner B, Gronthos S, Jensen CH, Kassem M. Development of novel monoclonal antibodies that define differentiation stages of human stromal (mesenchymal) stem cells. Molecules and cells. 2011;32(2):133-142.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Arthur A, Zannettino A, Panagopoulos R, Koblar SA, Sims NA, Stylianou C, Matsuo K, Gronthos S. EphB/ephrin-B interactions mediate human MSC attachment, migration and osteochondral differentiation. Bone. 2011;48(3):533-542.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Dharmapatni AA, Smith MD, Crotti TN, Holding CA, Vincent C, Weedon HM, Zannettino AC, Zheng TS, Findlay DM, Atkins GJ, Haynes DR. TWEAK and Fn14 expression in the pathogenesis of joint inflammation and bone erosion in rheumatoid arthritis. Arthritis research & therapy. 2011;13(2):R51.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Engler JR, Zannettino AC, Bailey CG, Rasko JE, Hughes TP, White DL. OCT-1 function varies with cell lineage but is not influenced by BCR-ABL. Haematologica. 2011;96(2):213-220.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Field JR, McGee M, Stanley R, Ruthenbeck G, Papadimitrakis T, Zannettino A, Gronthos S, Itescu S. The efficacy of allogeneic mesenchymal precursor cells for the repair of an ovine tibial segmental defect. Veterinary and comparative orthopaedics and traumatology : VCOT. 2011;24(2):113-121.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Freeman LM, Lam A, Petcu E, Smith R, Salajegheh A, Diamond P, Zannettino A, Evdokiou A, Luff J, Wong PF, Khalil D, Waterhouse N, Vari F, Rice AM, Catley L, Hart DN, Vuckovic S. Myeloma-induced alloreactive T cells arising in myeloma-infiltrated bones include double-positive CD8+CD4+ T cells: evidence from myeloma-bearing mouse model. Journal of immunology. 2011;187(8):3987-3996.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Goldschlager T, Ghosh P, Zannettino A, Williamson M, Rosenfeld JV, Itescu S, Jenkin G. A comparison of mesenchymal precursor cells and amnion epithelial cells for enhancing cervical interbody fusion in an ovine model. Neurosurgery. 2011;68(4):1025-1034; discussion 1034-1025.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Nath SV, Nicholson I, Tapp H, Zola H, Zannettino AC, Revesz T. Reticulin fibres anchor leukaemic blasts in the marrow of patients with acute lymphoblastic leukaemia. Medical hypotheses. 2011;77(3):333-335.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Psaltis PJ, Carbone A, Leong DP, Lau DH, Nelson AJ, Kuchel T, Jantzen T, Manavis J, Williams K, Sanders P, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC, Worthley SG. Assessment of myocardial fibrosis by endoventricular electromechanical mapping in experimental nonischemic cardiomyopathy. The international journal of cardiovascular imaging. 2011;27(1):25-37.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]See F, Seki T, Psaltis PJ, Sondermeijer HP, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC, Govaert KM, Schuster MD, Kurlansky PA, Kelly DJ, Krum H, Itescu S. Therapeutic effects of human STRO-3-selected mesenchymal precursor cells and their soluble factors in experimental myocardial ischemia. Journal of cellular and molecular medicine. 2011;15(10):2117-2129.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Vandyke K, Fitter S, Zannettino AC. The tyrosine kinase inhibitor dasatinib (SPRYCEL) inhibits chondrocyte activity and proliferation. Blood cancer journal. 2011;1(2):e2.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Zinonos I, Labrinidis A, Lee M, Liapis V, Hay S, Ponomarev V, Diamond P, Findlay DM, Zannettino AC, Evdokiou A. Anticancer efficacy of Apo2L/TRAIL is retained in the presence of high and biologically active concentrations of osteoprotegerin in vivo. Journal of bone and mineral research : the official journal of the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research. 2011;26(3):630-643.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Cakouros D, Isenmann S, Cooper L, Zannettino A, Anderson P, Glackin C, Gronthos S. Twist-1 induces Ezh2 recruitment regulating histone methylation along the Ink4A/Arf locus in mesenchymal stem cells. Molecular and cellular biology. 2012;32(8):1433-1441.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Castrechini NM, Murthi P, Qin S, Kusuma GD, Wilton L, Abumaree M, Gronthos S, Zannettino A, Gude NM, Brennecke SP, Kalionis B. Decidua parietalis-derived mesenchymal stromal cells reside in a vascular niche within the choriodecidua. Reproductive sciences. 2012;19(12):1302-1314.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Crotti TN, Dharmapatni AA, Alias E, Zannettino AC, Smith MD, Haynes DR. The immunoreceptor tyrosine-based activation motif (ITAM) -related factors are increased in synovial tissue and vasculature of rheumatoid arthritic joints. Arthritis research & therapy. 2012;14(6):R245.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Fitter S, Vandyke K, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC. Suppression of PDGF-induced PI3 kinase activity by imatinib promotes adipogenesis and adiponectin secretion. Journal of molecular endocrinology. 2012;48(3):229-240.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Ghosh P, Moore R, Vernon-Roberts B, Goldschlager T, Pascoe D, Zannettino A, Gronthos S, Itescu S. Immunoselected STRO-3+ mesenchymal precursor cells and restoration of the extracellular matrix of degenerate intervertebral discs. Journal of neurosurgery Spine. 2012;16(5):479-488.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Macsai CE, Georgiou KR, Foster BK, Zannettino AC, Xian CJ. Microarray expression analysis of genes and pathways involved in growth plate cartilage injury responses and bony repair. Bone. 2012;50(5):1081-1091.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Weber B, Emmert MY, Behr L, Schoenauer R, Brokopp C, Drogemuller C, Modregger P, Stampanoni M, Vats D, Rudin M, Burzle W, Farine M, Mazza E, Frauenfelder T, Zannettino AC, Zund G, Kretschmar O, Falk V, Hoerstrup SP. Prenatally engineered autologous amniotic fluid stem cell-based heart valves in the fetal circulation. Biomaterials. 2012;33(16):4031-4043.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Ahmed F, Choudhury NR, Dutta NK, Zannettino A, Knott R. Near superhydrophobic fibrous scaffold for endothelialization: fabrication, characterization and cellular activities. Biomacromolecules. 2013;14(11):3850-3860.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Arthur A, Panagopoulos RA, Cooper L, Menicanin D, Parkinson IH, Codrington JD, Vandyke K, Zannettino AC, Koblar SA, Sims NA, Matsuo K, Gronthos S. EphB4 enhances the process of endochondral ossification and inhibits remodeling during bone fracture repair. Journal of bone and mineral research : the official journal of the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research. 2013;28(4):926-935.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Frith JE, Cameron AR, Menzies DJ, Ghosh P, Whitehead DL, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC, Cooper-White JJ. An injectable hydrogel incorporating mesenchymal precursor cells and pentosan polysulphate for intervertebral disc regeneration. Biomaterials. 2013;34(37):9430-9440.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Richardson JD, Bertaso AG, Frost L, Psaltis PJ, Carbone A, Koschade B, Wong DT, Nelson AJ, Paton S, Williams K, Azarisman S, Worthley MI, Teo KS, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC, Worthley SG. Cardiac magnetic resonance, transthoracic and transoesophageal echocardiography: a comparison of in vivo assessment of ventricular function in rats. Laboratory animals. 2013;47(4):291-300.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Richardson JD, Bertaso AG, Psaltis PJ, Frost L, Carbone A, Paton S, Nelson AJ, Wong DT, Worthley MI, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC, Worthley SG. Impact of timing and dose of mesenchymal stromal cell therapy in a preclinical model of acute myocardial infarction. Journal of cardiac failure. 2013;19(5):342-353.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Thomas D, Powell JA, Green BD, Barry EF, Ma Y, Woodcock J, Fitter S, Zannettino AC, Pitson SM, Hughes TP, Lopez AF, Shepherd PR, Wei AH, Ekert PG, Guthridge MA. Protein kinase activity of phosphoinositide 3-kinase regulates cytokine-dependent cell survival. PLoS biology. 2013;11(3):e1001515.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Vandyke K, Chow AW, Williams SA, To LB, Zannettino AC. Circulating N-cadherin levels are a negative prognostic indicator in patients with multiple myeloma. British journal of haematology. 2013;161(4):499-507.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Vandyke K, Fitter S, Drew J, Fukumoto S, Schultz CG, Sims NA, Yeung DT, Hughes TP, Zannettino AC. Prospective histomorphometric and DXA evaluation of bone remodeling in imatinib-treated CML patients: evidence for site-specific skeletal effects. The Journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism. 2013;98(1):67-76.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Ahmed F, Choudhury NR, Dutta NK, Brito e Abreu S, Zannettino A, Duncan E. Interaction of platelets with poly(vinylidene fluoride-co-hexafluoropropylene) electrospun surfaces. Biomacromolecules. 2014;15(3):744-755.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Ahmed F, Dutta NK, Zannettino A, Vandyke K, Choudhury NR. Engineering interaction between bone marrow derived endothelial cells and electrospun surfaces for artificial vascular graft applications. Biomacromolecules. 2014;15(4):1276-1287.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Frith JE, Menzies DJ, Cameron AR, Ghosh P, Whitehead DL, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC, Cooper-White JJ. Effects of bound versus soluble pentosan polysulphate in PEG/HA-based hydrogels tailored for intervertebral disc regeneration. Biomaterials. 2014;35(4):1150-1162.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Hemming S, Cakouros D, Isenmann S, Cooper L, Menicanin D, Zannettino A, Gronthos S. EZH2 and KDM6A act as an epigenetic switch to regulate mesenchymal stem cell lineage specification. Stem cells. 2014;32(3):802-815.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Noll JE, Williams SA, Tong CM, Wang H, Quach JM, Purton LE, Pilkington K, To LB, Evdokiou A, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC. Myeloma plasma cells alter the bone marrow microenvironment by stimulating the proliferation of mesenchymal stromal cells. Haematologica. 2014;99(1):163-171.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Richardson JD, Psaltis PJ, Frost L, Paton S, Carbone A, Bertaso AG, Nelson AJ, Wong DT, Worthley MI, Gronthos S, Zannettino AC, Worthley SG. Incremental benefits of repeated mesenchymal stromal cell administration compared with solitary intervention after myocardial infarction. Cytotherapy. 2014;16(4):460-470.[/SIZE]


*[SIZE=12pt]REVIEWS[/SIZE]*


[SIZE=12pt]Arthur A, Zannettino A, Gronthos S. The therapeutic applications of multipotential mesenchymal/stromal stem cells in skeletal tissue repair. Journal of cellular physiology. 2009;218(2):237-245.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Dickinson M, Prince HM, Kirsa S, Zannettino A, Gibbs SD, Mileshkin L, O'Grady J, Seymour JF, Szer J, Horvath N, Joshua DE. Osteonecrosis of the jaw complicating bisphosphonate treatment for bone disease in multiple myeloma: an overview with recommendations for prevention and treatment. Internal medicine journal. 2009;39(5):304-316.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Menicanin D, Bartold PM, Zannettino AC, Gronthos S. Genomic profiling of mesenchymal stem cells. Stem cell reviews. 2009;5(1):36-50.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Goldschlager T, Jenkin G, Ghosh P, Zannettino A, Rosenfeld JV. Potential applications for using stem cells in spine surgery. Current stem cell research & therapy. 2010;5(4):345-355.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Psaltis PJ, Zannettino AC, Gronthos S, Worthley SG. Intramyocardial navigation and mapping for stem cell delivery. Journal of cardiovascular translational research. 2010;3(2):135-146.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Vandyke K, Fitter S, Dewar AL, Hughes TP, Zannettino AC. Dysregulation of bone remodeling by imatinib mesylate. Blood. 2010;115(4):766-774.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Martin SK, Diamond P, Gronthos S, Peet DJ, Zannettino AC. The emerging role of hypoxia, HIF-1 and HIF-2 in multiple myeloma. Leukemia. 2011;25(10):1533-1542.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Noll JE, Williams SA, Purton LE, Zannettino AC. Tug of war in the haematopoietic stem cell niche: do myeloma plasma cells compete for the HSC niche? Blood cancer journal. 2012;2:e91.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Goldschlager T, Oehme D, Ghosh P, Zannettino A, Rosenfeld JV, Jenkin G. Current and future applications for stem cell therapies in spine surgery. Current stem cell research & therapy. 2013;8(5):381-393.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Richardson JD, Nelson AJ, Zannettino AC, Gronthos S, Worthley SG, Psaltis PJ. Optimization of the cardiovascular therapeutic properties of mesenchymal stromal/stem cells-taking the next step. Stem cell reviews. 2013;9(3):281-302.[/SIZE]


*[SIZE=12pt]BOOK CHAPTER[/SIZE]*


[SIZE=12pt]Gronthos S, Zannettino AC. Methods for the purification and characterization of human adipose-derived stem cells. Methods Mol Biol. Vol. 702; 2011:109-120.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Zannettino ACW. Bone Loss, Cancer Mediated. In: Schwab M, ed. Encyclopedia of Cancer. Berlin: Springer Press; 2012:441-445.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Vandyke K, Zannettino ACW. Effects of Tyrosine Kinase Inhibitors on Growth in Paediatric Patients. In: Akhtari M, ed. Imatinib: Chemical Structure, Pharmacology and Adverse Effects” Ed Mojtaba Akhtari Nova Publishers: Nova Publishers; 2013.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Zannettino ACW, Martin SK, Gronthos S To LB, Peet D. The role of the chemokine CXCL12 in the pathogenesis of multiple myeloma (MM). Chemokine Research Frontiers. Ed. F. Colombus. Nova Publishers. 2012.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Vandyke K, Zannettino ACW. Effects of Tyrosine Kinase Inhibitors on Growth in Paediatric Patients, in Imatinib: Chemical Structure, Pharmacology and Adverse Effects, Nova Publishers. 2012[/SIZE]







Professional Associations
*[SIZE=12pt]Current Appointments:[/SIZE]*
[SIZE=12pt]Faculty member, Centre for Cancer Biology, SA Pathology, SA Health.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Faculty member, Centre for Personalised Cancer Medicine, University of Adelaide.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Faculty member, Centre for Stem Cell Research, University of Adelaide.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Faculty member, Biosciences Pillar of the South Australian Health and Medical Research Institute (SAHMRI).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Chair, School of Medical Sciences Research Committee[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Member, Faculty of Health Sciences Review Committee[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Member, Research Project Group, Adelaide Medical and Nursing School Project.[/SIZE]




[SIZE=12pt]Member, Advisory Board, Robinson Research Institute[/SIZE]

*[SIZE=12pt]Professional Associations and Appointments:[/SIZE]*
[SIZE=12pt]Elected international member of the American Society of Hematology (ASH).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Elected member of the Haematology Society of Australia and New Zealand.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Member, Medical and Scientific Advisory Group, Myeloma Foundation of Australia.[/SIZE]




[SIZE=12pt]Key opinion leader, Myeloma bone disease, Novartis and Janssen Cilag.[/SIZE]
_Entry last updated: Thursday, 2 Jul 2015_


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## Tex N Oz (4/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Professor Andrew Zannettino
> 
> This guy might be a bit smarter than your average GP


It's easy to through names around. I'm not convinced any scientist in the world would make this assessment.


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## Benn (4/9/15)

They reckon licking a 9v battery can cause a heart attack but I still do it,


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## Tex N Oz (4/9/15)

Benn said:


> They reckon licking a 9v battery can cause a heart attack but I still do it,


An electric "shock" to induce cardiac failure must be at the lowest documented case of 52V and 25mA. 

Edit: 25mA being at extremely high voltage. Not 52V. At 52V it's around 300mA.


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## Benn (4/9/15)

Phew!


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

Tex N Oz said:


> It's easy to through names around. I'm not convinced any scientist in the world would make this assessment.


Well, all the GP's I have ever known where not Professors....


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## Tex N Oz (4/9/15)

Benn said:


> Phew!


Close call eh?!
Thought you were living on the edge right? The question is.... How fun is licking the battery with no risk?


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

Tex N Oz said:


> An electric "shock" to induce cardiac failure must be at the lowest documented case of 52V and 25mA.
> 
> Edit: 25mA being at extremely high voltage. Not 52V. At 52V it's around 300mA.


Glad your a Doctor then.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

Tex N Oz said:


> How fun is licking the battery with no risk?


About the same as snorting whizz-fizz and thinking its coke


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## Tex N Oz (4/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Well, all the GP's I have ever known where not Professors....


I'm not discrediting this professor mate. I'm just questioning why a professor of metastatic myeloma is giving some guy advice on his drinking water?
I ask my cardio-thoracic surgeon (who is a professor) a question about my headaches and he doesn't want a bar of it. He sends me off to a neurologist, even though it was caused by a drug my cardio surgeon gave me..


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## Tex N Oz (4/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Glad your a Doctor then.


I was taught that in an electrical engineering course.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> So now to my question. I have been told I cant brew in distilled water and I have been told that's BS. Apparently all I need to do is to add calcium sulfate to the water (0.5mg/l) to use with a kit and I have been told I don't need to do anything. What's correct here? If I do need to do something to the distilled water in order to use it, what do I do? I sort of need to work this out now as everything I will do will be done with distilled water.
> 
> Thanks in advance


Of course you can brew with RO water.. its complete BS that you cant

There are already trace elements and minerals in the malt extract which the yeast needs

The matter of water chemistry comes down more to the style of beer you want to brew.

English ales are historically made from harder water. Google Burton-on-trent water and burtonizing water ( epsom salts, gypsum etc )

Pilsners are made from soft water ( more like rain water )

My suggestion would be to brew with rain water if you can get it or whatever water doesnt cause you problems

Brewed for AG many years just using rain water and my beer was always fine and I never added anything to it, except a few experiments with English Ales and salts which really did make a difference with respect that it gave the beers a real mineral bite


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

Tex N Oz said:


> I'm not discrediting this professor mate. I'm just questioning why a professor of metastatic myeloma is giving some guy advice on his drinking water?
> I ask my cardio-thoracic surgeon (who is a professor) a question about my headaches and he doesn't want a bar of it. He sends me off to a neurologist, even though it was caused by a drug my cardio surgeon gave me..


Maybe he is looking at a bigger picture..... 

Maybe he can see a correlation with what is in the water to what is happening in his blood...


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Tex N OZ

I never once asked for health advice, no where in anything I have written have I asked anyone here to diagnose me, treat me, offer me advice or find some way to brew a healthy beer, I don't know where you read that or haw you interpreted anything I have written as asking for health advice. Read my posts again. My question was can I brew using distilled water? Simple. Read it again.
I stated the reasons I can't drink tap water. Fluoride is a POISON. It is banned in many countries in Europe and I am extremely allergic to it. If you think it's ok, go and eat a kilo of mate. I ended up with Professor Zannettino as he is a haematologist, he deals in blood, google it. Initially they thought I had a blood disorder and he has stuck with me to find out why I am so allergic to fluoride. Distilled water leaches minerals from your body. Known fact. I also see an allergy specialist and a cardiologist to make sure that my body is not being damaged. I have blood tests every month and and echo cardiogram every three months to check on my blood vessels.
As for chlorine, when it enters the body as a result of *breathing, swallowing or skin contact* it it reacts with water to produce acids.The acids are corrosive and damage cells in the body on contact. Google it. If you think chlorine is ok, go eat a kilo of that too.

So mate I really doubt your qualifications as an engineer and I doubt you can read too because you clearly didn't read anything that I have written. You interpret things in your own way which in this case is entirely wrong.

Sodium and chloride when present together do not sodium chloride make. As an engineer you should be able to work that out. Unless you're not. You're also not a Dr.

ducatiboy stu No mate I haven't tried river Murray salt.

So now to the admin of this forum please delete me from here.


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Thanks Stu, I will take your advice and do it anyway.


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## Tex N Oz (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> Tex N OZ
> 
> I never once asked for health advice, no where in anything I have written have I asked anyone here to diagnose me, treat me, offer me advice or find some way to brew a healthy beer, I don't know where you read that or haw you interpreted anything I have written as asking for health advice. Read my posts again. My question was can I brew using distilled water? Simple. Read it again.
> I stated the reasons I can't drink tap water. Fluoride is a POISON. It is banned in many countries in Europe and I am extremely allergic to it. If you think it's ok, go and eat a kilo of mate. I ended up with Professor Zannettino as he is a haematologist, he deals in blood, google it. Initially they thought I had a blood disorder and he has stuck with me to find out why I am so allergic to fluoride. Distilled water leaches minerals from your body. Known fact. I also see an allergy specialist and a cardiologist to make sure that my body is not being damaged. I have blood tests every month and and echo cardiogram every three months to check on my blood vessels.
> ...


You are correct that I should reserve my opinion and others have told me the same. My apologies.
I don't know your situation or condition therefore I really have no grounds. I'm wrong.


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## jyo (4/9/15)

Then why get your Google fu on and act like a clown?

This forum shits me sometimes.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> . It's at the end of the Murray after every town along the way has dumped it sewage into it and every animal along the way has crapped in it. Turns out I don't get rid of fluoride that easy and I'm at the tipping point.


 Adelaide has always had hard water. People who are used to soft water cant handle hard water. It will make you crook in the guts. I have worked out western NSW and drunk bore water, and I know from experience that it doesnt agree with you, and boy can it make you shit thru the eye of a needle. But there are plenty who can handle it without issue. 

Towns no longer " dump" sewage into the river ( or any river for that matter ). It is now highly treated.

Without being a smart ass, is it only Adelaide water that causes you problems ?

Have you compared the levels of fluoride and chlorine against other towns/cities and can you drink their water ?

I am not a doctor or battery licker, but do realise that certain people are allergic to some really strange things. 

I would also hate to see that if you go down the route of water treatment for brewing that it aggravated your condition.


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## klangers (4/9/15)

I understand your frustration mate, but oh my goodness whatever you say do not state that fluoride is a poison or is a byproduct from aluminium smelting and all that kind of thing. That will not help your cause.
Fluoride is fluoride, regardless of the original process it was generated from. 

The world health organisation has stated that fluoridisation of drinking water has been one of the best preventative medical initiatives ever. It protects people's teeth. Natural rivers and streams have comparable levels of fluoride. Sometimes more.

Yes, fluorine is incredibly reactive. It reacts with the calcium in your teeth to allow the enamel to* regenerate*.

Everything is a poison, it's just the dose that matters.


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## TheWiggman (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> I'm not a troll mate. Thanks for answering my question.


Not a worry, that's the purpose of these forums. But the remainder of this thread is was what I was wary of.



mickiboi said:


> Tex N OZ
> 
> I never once asked for health advice, no where in anything I have written have I asked anyone here to diagnose me, treat me, offer me advice or find some way to brew a healthy beer, I don't know where you read that or haw you interpreted anything I have written as asking for health advice. Read my posts again. My question was can I brew using distilled water? Simple. Read it again.


Look at the thread title. If you were asking about distilled water you should have called the thread "can I brew kits with distilled water?". Mentioning allergies and chemicals incites these arguments and it was always going to go down this path. If you don't want people to offer advice on chlorine of fluoride, don't mention chlorine or fluoride. Can't we all just stick to brewing?


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## Coalminer (4/9/15)

Just a thought, I may be wrong

Consider this - a beer kit is basically a normal wort that has a great majority of water removed. Do we know for certain what the composition of the water used by different makers of beer kits.
By removing this water (note not all the water is removed, just most of it) then does the flouride and chlorine get removed as well, or does it remain and is concentrated?
If it is reduced by the same proportion as the water there must still be a small amount in the kit as there is still a small amount of the brew water remaining.
Will this amount be below your tolerance level? You may not even be able to use kits at all.


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## TheWiggman (4/9/15)

I'm pretty confident that the water used in the kits is RO water. Coopers for instance produce the cans and use RO water for their brewing, and some of their cans come are made from the wort used in their commercial beers. Any salt additions for pH and flavour adjustment have already been made. There would be no reason to add other chemicals.


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## Mardoo (4/9/15)

OP, if you want to learn more about water additions for brewing, one of the simplest-to-understand sources I have found for info about brewing water additions is the four-part Brew Strong series on water. Particularly the third show, but you'll probably need the first two to understand the third one. Start with Why Adjust Your Water and then go on to parts 2-4. 

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/page/2/?s=Water


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Thanks Stu. Much appreciated.




klangers said:


> I understand your frustration mate, but oh my goodness whatever you say do not state that fluoride is a poison or is a byproduct from aluminium smelting and all that kind of thing. That will not help your cause.
> Fluoride is fluoride, regardless of the original process it was generated from.
> 
> The world health organisation has stated that fluoridisation of drinking water has been one of the best preventative medical initiatives ever. It protects people's teeth. Natural rivers and streams have comparable levels of fluoride. Sometimes more.
> ...


http://www.slweb.org/carlsson.html Dr Carlsson Nobel Prize winning laureate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo6SnvmMP9k Professor Paul Connett

You're right, it's not poison, I should have called it by its correct name......TOXIC.

If you want to continue to drink fluoride be my guest. Your health is not my concern, my health is.

But I tell you one thing, I'm not putting fluoride into my body just because you say it's ok and people way way way smarter than you tell me it's not. 

But you are right, this is not the right place to discuss the quality of water or the effects of fluoridation of water on your health. My only concern is that I don't drink it in my beer. What you drink in your beer is of no concern to me.

I find it strange that grown people think that something is OK to put in their bodies just because the water board says it is.

Anyway I think it's time I left this forum. Catch you all later.


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Coalminer said:


> Just a thought, I may be wrong
> 
> Consider this - a beer kit is basically a normal wort that has a great majority of water removed. Do we know for certain what the composition of the water used by different makers of beer kits.
> By removing this water (note not all the water is removed, just most of it) then does the flouride and chlorine get removed as well, or does it remain and is concentrated?
> ...


Spoke to Coopers, the water they use is all good. Goes through a Millipore filter system. I have been down this road many many times.


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Mardoo said:


> OP, if you want to learn more about water additions for brewing, one of the simplest-to-understand sources I have found for info about brewing water additions is the four-part Brew Strong series on water. Particularly the third show, but you'll probably need the first two to understand the third one. Start with Why Adjust Your Water and then go on to parts 2-4.
> 
> http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/page/2/?s=Water


Excellent mate. Thank you, that is just what I was looking for.


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## Bridges (4/9/15)

Coopers use RO water then Burtonize it. That goes for all their wort if it ends up in bottles or canned goo. Dude running the brewery tour told me that a couple of years ago.
FWIW.


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## Tex N Oz (4/9/15)

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/american-antifluoride-campaigner-paul-connett-is-headed-to-australia-20150211-13bvj9.html

And there's the other side of the story..


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## seamad (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> http://themeadow.com/pages/minerals-in-himalayan-pink-salt-spectral-analysis
> 
> This is what's in it. I wouldn't do this lightly guys, trust me. I have had one of the best professors work with me for years to find a solution to this crap I have gone through. And it works for me and many others. And I know it says fluoride but there it's so low it ha no affect on me. What's in the tap water here is much much higher. And it is not produced from the waste of aluminium smelting like the fluoride in the water and toothpaste. *It's a naturally forming version that is not even molecularly similar.*


Once dissolved in solution, a fluoride ion is a fluoride ion.


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Bridges said:


> Coopers use RO water then Burtonize it. That goes for all their wort if it ends up in bottles or canned goo. Dude running the brewery tour told me that a couple of years ago.
> FWIW.



Is that directed at me? Have a look at Millipore filters. This is what I was told they use when I rang them. Anyway they start with pure clean water.


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Tex N Oz said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/american-antifluoride-campaigner-paul-connett-is-headed-to-australia-20150211-13bvj9.html
> 
> And there's the other side of the story..


All good mate, like I said yesterday, if you think it's safe and you want to drink it or anyone else wants to drink it, you drink it, no skin of my nose. I can't and I don't so I won't. I got my answer, distilled water is fine to brew with with no additions. I'm happy.  .I think from the link that mardoo posted I can get to AG quite comfortably. To all those that contributed in a positive way thank heaps guys.


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## klangers (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> Thanks Stu. Much appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not saying you should put fluoride anywhere. Of course if you're allergic to it then don't have it. I'm just trying to get facts straight and remove emotive language from the equation so that other readers aren't misled or unduly influenced.

The beauty of science is that debate is encouraged. There is always some people who disagree with the popularly held opinion. And that's ok. But currently, I remain unconvinced of their arguments.

Yes, fluoride is toxic.

So is the cyanide that is naturally occurring in apples, or the air that you breath with carbon monoxide etc. And.... so is *ethanol, *sodium chloride, calcium chloride and a whole other host of things that we all happily consume. If you stopped consuming everything that is toxic/carcinogenic/poisonous to any degree, you'd be left with precious little. To reiterate, I applaud the fact that you've found what ails you, and I totally agree with you cutting it out.

Personally, I believe that my diet, the beer, the hazards associated with every day activities including the air I breathe and materials I come in contact with have a far greater influence on my health than Sydney Water which is renowned as world-class. Of course as you say this is none of your concern, but the whole point of forums is for *discussion and sharing of opinions* *and information.*


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## GalBrew (4/9/15)

Alcohol is a poison too. Most things are. It's all about dosage.


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

klangers said:


> I'm not saying you should put fluoride anywhere. Of course if you're allergic to it then don't have it. I'm just trying to get facts straight and remove emotive language from the equation so that other readers aren't misled or unduly influenced.
> 
> The beauty of science is that debate is encouraged. There is always some people who disagree with the popularly held opinion. And that's ok. But currently, I remain unconvinced of their arguments.
> 
> ...


Holy crap, you mean there is a town in Australia that is injecting cyanide in to their water supply? How did they sell that to the community they are doing this to? I am travelling around Australia soon and I would really like to bypass this particular town. I mean I am really scared of fluoride but cyanide really scares the crap out me. Did they tell the poor unlucky town folk that it would make their penises grow bigger or something? Or did they call the cyanide by another name and say these are the health benefits of drinking cyanide laced water? What was the population of the town before they started putting cyanide in the water and what is the population of that town now? Did they measure the IQ of this town before they started doing that to their water supply? I'm totally shocked

Do you see how absurd your argument is that cyanide is poison, comparing that to the fluoride treatment of an entire populations water supply. Every scientist in the world will tell you cyanide will kill you, find a better argument. There are more scientists now saying that fluoride is TOXIC than there are saying it is not. If you want fluoride in your water then you should add it your water. It's like second hand cigarette smoke. Just because someone wants to smoke doesn't mean that I should be subjected to the foul smelling stench a smoker creates. It's the same with fluoride mate, why should I be subjected to it just because you want it.

Ask someone from Mildura and the crap they have been through. There will be someone here from there for sure. LMW said they are going to fluoridate the water supply. The entire town jacked up. Of a population around 30,000 they got 27,500 signatures to stop it happening. You know what? It didn't matter they went ahead and did it anyway. The water filter people moved in and every one I know took this company up on their offer of $275 RO system installed. LMW put it and the people took it out at the tap. The people tried and the failed. The 2500 that didn't sign either didn't care, weren't in town or couldn't read or write. What makes you Sydney water are so smart? Wait until they say OH look chlorine is to expensive to use now, we are going to switch to chloramine. I bet you think that would be ok too?

Comparing something known to be poisonous, cyanide, to fluoride that all of Europe and China and India have now stopped using because they know it is, and we still do here so it must be ok, is a pretty piss weak comparison mate. Hell, lots of countries have stopped using chlorine and chloramine and use H2O2 and UV. France to name one. Why? Because its TOXIC and poisonous.




GalBrew said:


> Alcohol is a poison too. Most things are. It's all about dosage.



What town has started putting alcohol into their water supply? I want to visit that one.


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## paulyman (4/9/15)

Double edit - just read back a bit more. I'm out, no point being constructive.


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## seamad (4/9/15)

fluoride turns you into a communist too


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

Just wondering why dentist are so pro fluoridation.....

Up in Lismore they have un flouridated ( but not for much longer ) and one of the highest rates of tooth decay

Every element is poisonous in high doses. But he body still needs them to function. Iron is essential in the blood but to much will kill you

Flouride has been in many water supplies for decades, and so far, no one has died from it or become gravelly ill en mass. Yes there will be the odd person who is allergic, buts its not the majority of the population

Just another question mickiboi, do you have to use non fluridated toothpaste ( legit question as I have never seen it on the shelves )


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Yes mate i do have un flouridated tooth paste. Tea tree oil toothpaste and i haven't had a single thing go wrong with my teeth. Im out too.


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## Bribie G (4/9/15)

When I worked in the Welsh Office in Cardiff in the early 1970s - more or the less equivalent to an Aussie State government nowadays - fluoridation was just coming in, and my department (Community Health) had an oversight.

They did an exercise with two small towns in North Wales. One of them had negligible fluoride in the water supply, the other one had naturally occurring fluoride to the recommended "medicinal" dose PPM.

After the five year study they found that the fluoridated town had far better dental health, especially amongst children. However they found to their surprise that the unfluoridated town also had improved their dental health over the course of the study, with less cavities etc.

It seemed that the unfluoridated town, all well aware of the study, had decided "right let's show the bastards" and went berserk on tooth brushing, flossing, carrot and celery munching etc.

edit: hey mickiboi you should be able to get unfluoridated toothpaste from Aldi ... early next year with luck :super:


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> Yes mate i do have un flouridated tooth paste. Tea tree oil toothpaste and i haven't had a single thing go wrong with my teeth. Im out too.


I didnt know they made a tea tree toothpaste. Tea tree having natural anti-bacterial and anti-microbiological properties would certainly be benificial to dental health


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## Feldon (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> I have a severe reaction to both chlorine and fluoride. Adelaide tap water is crap, lots of people here can't drink it, don't drink it and won't drink it. I wouldn't drink a home brew made with Adelaide water if you paid me. But I won't start making an all grain home brew until I work out the water chemistry needed. So if you say go ahead and use distilled water for a can of pale ale I will. Thanks for the advice.


If its only chlorine and fluoride you are alergic to why not just use spring water you can buy from the supermarket. You can check the water analysis label to see if its chlorine free etc. (In my old Coopers DVD I got with my starter kit years ago they recommend using store bought spring water.)

I wouldn't use distilled water for fermenting the Coopers kit. Yeast need the minerals provided in the water to function properly. Sure, there are minerals in the kit, and in the yeast, but you still need a basic mineral profile in the water. Yeast makers would assume you are using natural mineralised water I would think.


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Thanks feldon. This is why i asked. You say no, stu says yes. This is what happened at the local HBS when i asked there. The people in the shop disagreed with each other. So now I'm back to the start again.


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## klangers (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> Im out too.



You've said this three times but keep coming back, with what comes across as a unreasonably defensive attitude. In fact this reminds me far too much of the discussions I've had with "anti-vaxxers".


May you have the best of luck with your brewing.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> Thanks feldon. This is why i asked. You say no, stu says yes. This is what happened at the local HBS when i asked there. The people in the shop disagreed with each other. So now I'm back to the start again.


There is a thread on here about whether HBS's know what they are talking about

You can brew with RO/Distilled water. But you would get better/different results if you added minerals. To say you cant is not correct. Because you can.


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## SBOB (4/9/15)

I've never seen a sane or well thought out pro/con argument for fluoride in water.... and I still haven't

You know those 'evil' corporations that apparently scheme to poison everyone by putting fluoride in their water, well the CEO, executives, engineers etc that all work for whatever that company might be all happen to also drink the same water.... crazy suicidal bastards


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

Its a conspiracy, man.


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Bribie G said:


> When I worked in the Welsh Office in Cardiff in the early 1970s - more or the less equivalent to an Aussie State government nowadays - fluoridation was just coming in, and my department (Community Health) had an oversight.
> 
> They did an exercise with two small towns in North Wales. One of them had negligible fluoride in the water supply, the other one had naturally occurring fluoride to the recommended "medicinal" dose PPM.
> 
> ...


Thanks buddy.

Now how interesting is that? Seems that if you look after your teeth correctly fluoride is completely unnecessary. So they only fluoridate water becsuse people are too damn lazy to clean their teeth. 

I am waiting for ALDI to open here. When i go somewhere that has one i stock up on their toothpaste.

Klangers

I'm not being defensive. Everyone keeps saying fluoride is safe. Show me one study from a reputable university or institution that says that. I can show you reference after reference from reputable universities, institutions and credentialed academics that says its not and the only defence anyone has come up with here is Sydney water are good at what they do. Great debate.........


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## seamad (4/9/15)

and don't have a cup of tea, lots of fluoride in tea


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## Feldon (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> Thanks feldon. This is why i asked. You say no, stu says yes. This is what happened at the local HBS when i asked there. The people in the shop disagreed with each other. So now I'm back to the start again.


Well it doesn't matter who is right or wrong on that point if you can use store bought spring water. Do you think that is an option for you?


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

SBOB said:


> I've never seen a sane or well thought out pro/con argument for fluoride in water.... and I still haven't
> 
> You know those 'evil' corporations that apparently scheme to poison everyone by putting fluoride in their water, well the CEO, executives, engineers etc that all work for whatever that company might be all happen to also drink the same water.... crazy suicidal bastards


How do you know they all drink that water? Big assumption, you have been to all of those persons houses and seen that for yourself. Once again another baseless unsubstantiated statement.


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Feldon said:


> Well it doesn't matter who is right or wrong on that point if you can use store bought spring water. Do you think that is an option for you?


Absolutely mate. Exactly what I'm going to do.


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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

Nope no tea.


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## Feldon (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> Absolutely mate. Exactly what I'm going to do.


Good luck with it.


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## SBOB (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> How do you know they all drink that water? Big assumption, you have been to all of those persons houses and seen that for yourself. Once again another baseless unsubstantiated statement.


Like I said....I've never seen a sane or well thought out pro/con argument for fluoride in water.... and I still haven't

As an engineer in the water/waste water industry i'll take my 'big assumptions' over your 'conspiracy theory ramblings'


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## manticle (4/9/15)

Let's forget about the fluoride/anti fluoride thing or at least move it to another thread.
For whatever reason OP wishes to avoid fluoride and wishes to brew beer and wants some help.
That's the basis - let's offer whatever help is practical.

Everyone take a breath, start again.


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## Grainer (4/9/15)

Boil it let is sit for 24 hrs All good !!


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## Cummy (4/9/15)




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## mickiboi (4/9/15)

SBOB said:


> Like I said....I've never seen a sane or well thought out pro/con argument for fluoride in water.... and I still haven't
> 
> As an engineer in the water/waste water industry i'll take my 'big assumptions' over your 'conspiracy theory ramblings'


If only I had a dollar for every time someone disagreed with another person's opinion and they said I'm an engineer. You are no2 so far. These forums are full of sopposed engineers. I bet you aren't even an engineer either. Pathetic defence and still no actual evidence that it's safe.


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## SBOB (4/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> If only I had a dollar for every time someone disagreed with another person's opinion and they said I'm an engineer. You are no2 so far.


so........ you'd have $2 ?


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## manticle (4/9/15)

My suggestion that we leave the fluoride/no fluoride discussion for another time and thread applies to all.

Back on topic - the topic being using mineral free water for kits.

Please.
On topic.
Everyone.
Cheers


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## Camo6 (4/9/15)

As per your original post Mickiboi; you have access to distilled water that agrees with you. That will be fine for starters whether it be K&K or AG. Not happy with the result then start looking into water chemistry and mash Ph.

May I suggest looking for advice from fellow brewers closer to home who may understand your water woes? Have you tried brewadelaide? I know that's the first place I looked.

Best of luck with your condition.


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## manticle (4/9/15)

Whether you do kits or AG, you could still add minerals like magnesium and calcium to benefit yeast and season with sulfate or chloride versions depending on hoppy/malty balance.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/9/15)

Ok. Back on topic 

You can brew with RO/Distilled/De-mineralised water.

Your beer may turn out better if you add minerals & salts. Mandatory no, helpful, 

There are many brewers who dont add anything to their water and their beer is perfectly fine. I brewed with rain water for many years and didnt add anything to the water. My beers where fine

Yes there will be many arguments over how you "must" add minerals & salts and how beneficial it can be. But its not mandatory.


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## MickGC (4/9/15)

I reckon just give it a crack, 
ingredients for a kit are not too much, bit of time, bit of ingredients,
whats the worst that can happen? crappy beer, ive made plenty of that!
If you do make some with distilled, please keep us updated
one thought, get some smaller fermenting vessels, and split the batch with different water 
EG straight distilled, with some salts added, and a tap water (maybe get someone else to drink that) just to give some data as to the end result


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## Tony (4/9/15)

Broken Hill Sea Salt is far better


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## manticle (4/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Ok. Back on topic
> 
> You can brew with RO/Distilled/De-mineralised water.
> 
> ...


Agreed.


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## Blind Dog (5/9/15)

Ref post 2, I just want to ask the presentient being that is the Wiggman for his tips for the NRL and/or (but preferably and) AFL finals series.

And to the OP. As various people have posted, you can brew perfectly fine beer with a kit and distilled or RO water. And to reiterate Manticles advice, minerals added back to the distilled/RO water are likely to be beneficial to the beer, but double check they're also beneficial to you. As your allergies are pretty severe, it's pretty good advice


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## angus_grant (5/9/15)

http://www.brewerspublications.com/books/water-a-comprehensive-guide-for-brewers/


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## Coalminer (5/9/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I didnt know they made a tea tree toothpaste. Tea tree having natural anti-bacterial and anti-microbiological properties would certainly be benificial to dental health



http://www.thursdayplantation.com/product-categories/australia/mouth-care/tea-tree-toothpaste/


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## stewy (5/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> Thanks Stu. Much appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 //


Infowars?? Really? A conspiracy theorist site? 

Also, fallacious appeals to authority & YouTube videos are not peer reviewed literature

Effects of Fluoride at 1PPM has been studied extensively for decades... There is NO (peer reviewed) evidence that it causes any harm to humans.


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## sponge (5/9/15)

Jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel..


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## stewy (5/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> Holy crap, you mean there is a town in Australia that is injecting cyanide in to their water supply? How did they sell that to the community they are doing this to? I am travelling around Australia soon and I would really like to bypass this particular town. I mean I am really scared of fluoride but cyanide really scares the crap out me. Did they tell the poor unlucky town folk that it would make their penises grow bigger or something? Or did they call the cyanide by another name and say these are the health benefits of drinking cyanide laced water? What was the population of the town before they started putting cyanide in the water and what is the population of that town now? Did they measure the IQ of this town before they started doing that to their water supply? I'm totally shocked
> 
> Do you see how absurd your argument is that cyanide is poison, comparing that to the fluoride treatment of an entire populations water supply. Every scientist in the world will tell you cyanide will kill you, find a better argument. There are more scientists now saying that fluoride is TOXIC than there are saying it is not. If you want fluoride in your water then you should add it your water. It's like second hand cigarette smoke. Just because someone wants to smoke doesn't mean that I should be subjected to the foul smelling stench a smoker creates. It's the same with fluoride mate, why should I be subjected to it just because you want it.
> 
> ...


 //







Everything is toxic

For fatal fluoride toxicity to occur at 1 PPM you need to drink approx an Olympic sized swimming pool in 1 sitting....the H2O will kill you long before the Fl

Ahhhhhhh avoid the dihydrogen monoxide!!!!!!!!

Chemicalzzzzzzz

Ps. If you have a 15 year old relative studying first year chemistry, ask them to explain this stuff to you....


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## stewy (5/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> Thanks buddy.
> 
> Now how interesting is that? Seems that if you look after your teeth correctly fluoride is completely unnecessary. So they only fluoridate water becsuse people are too damn lazy to clean their teeth.
> 
> ...


Recent meta-analysis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18584000

Good summation of the pseudo science being thrown around

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/antifluoridation-bad-science/


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## barls (5/9/15)

final warning on the off topic fluoride discussion further posts continuing it will be hidden.
lets get back to the op question.


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## Cummy (5/9/15)




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## Mattrox (20/9/15)

mickiboi said:


> Hi all. I'm new to brewing and I am starting on a Coopers Pale ale kit and going to work my way up to all grain when I get the feel of things, however long that may take. But for the moment I just want to make a beer and keg it and work out what to do. I am a distiller and have been making mashes for a while so now I turn to home brew as an extension of my hobby.
> 
> I live in Adelaide and the water here is crap, I can't drink it with out breaking out in a rash and boils that would make a pox ridden hooker look like Miss Universe. I have to drink distilled water, which I add a teaspoon (5ml) of saturated Himalayan sea salt water to every litre I drink. You can't taste it and it makes up for the minerals that the distilled water is deficient in.
> 
> ...


Just go to the West End brewery and fill up your 11L spring water bottles for $2 each. 

Problem solved and no need for off topic discussion.


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## Bradgc (21/9/15)

paulyman said:


> I'd be less worried about using distiller water in brewing and concentrate on visiting a doctor rather than relying on quack science (Himalayan sea salt). Each to their own I suppose.



Actually if you drink distilled or de-ionised water the lack of ions and negative ions will strip out the positive ions.


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## Wall (13/10/15)

Mickiboi in your original post you mention that you've been mashing for a while through distilling.
Never used a still so maybe I'm missing something but can't you just use the same methods to mash in for beer as for stilling? Or does mash have a different meaning for distillers?

Not being facetious I'm genuinely curious why you're playing with kits if you already know your way round a mash tun.
Apologies if my lack of knowledge about stills has led me down a garden path.


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