# Brewing With Maris Otter



## katzke (26/9/09)

I have used Maris Otter twice and have not been pleased with the results. The first was a dumper and the second is a beer that can be forced down but is not pleasing. The recipes are basically an ordinary bitter with Maris Otter and Fuggles. The first I did no water treatment and it was the dumper. The second I used Palmers spreadsheet to set the residual alkalinity and set the Chloride Sulfate ratio to a 2 to 1 bitter range. It is better but not pleasing to drink.

So I either do not care for the taste of Maris Otter or I still need to play with the water additions. I think it may be both.

The taste is hard form me to describe but I would call it something between a tea bag and musty old beer. The smell is what gets you first and is about the same as the taste. It is about the same as it was in the first beer except that one was 20 times worse. I have had people say Maris Otter is Bready or Biscuity but that does not describe the taste or smell I get.

I know you are going to ask what the recipe is but I do not have it in front of me. Like I said it is a basic 100% Maris Otter OB with fuggles and fermented with S-04.

I just think I may be missing something in my water setup. Does Maris Otter require something more then the other pale malts?


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## gwozniak (26/9/09)

I'm only begining to use base malts but i've brewed an all grain beer with just maris otter and some hops for bittering. I loved the taste. Did taste that bready sort of taste. There was no tea bag or musty taste. Maybe there's a fault with something you've done? By tea bag do you mean the beer was astringent?

I don't do any water treatment. No idea what my water is like but seems to produce decent enough beers.


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## enoch (26/9/09)

katzke said:


> The taste is hard form me to describe but I would call it something between a tea bag and musty old beer. The smell is what gets you first and is about the same as the taste. It is about the same as it was in the first beer except that one was 20 times worse. I have had people say Maris Otter is Bready or Biscuity but that does not describe the taste or smell I get.



I have used it a few times and get the musty rather than biscuity. I always put it down to holding onto the malt a bit to long. 
I reckon I've seen MO beers referred to as "stinky beer" here it might not just be me.


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## manticle (26/9/09)

katzke said:


> I have used Maris Otter twice and have not been pleased with the results. The first was a dumper and the second is a beer that can be forced down but is not pleasing. The recipes are basically an ordinary bitter with Maris Otter and Fuggles. The first I did no water treatment and it was the dumper. The second I used Palmers spreadsheet to set the residual alkalinity and set the Chloride Sulfate ratio to a 2 to 1 bitter range. It is better but not pleasing to drink.
> 
> So I either do not care for the taste of Maris Otter or I still need to play with the water additions. I think it may be both.
> 
> ...



Never brewed with it so I can't help you on that score but I have tasted a few SMASH AGs made with it and didn't get any tea-bag/mustiness. Many people seem to dislike s-04 but I'm assuming you've ruled that out?


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## white.grant (26/9/09)

MO is my favourite base malt. It is delicious and biscuity and adds a wonderful falvour to traditional english ales that is just not possible with other pale ale malts. The characteristics you describe are not what I associate with MO, but then you haven't told us what yeast you used and how the fermentation went, that's where I would be looking to for explanations of these flavour problems.

cheers

grant


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## altone (26/9/09)

katzke said:


> I have used Maris Otter twice and have not been pleased with the results. The first was a dumper and the second is a beer that can be forced down but is not pleasing. The recipes are basically an ordinary bitter with Maris Otter and Fuggles. The first I did no water treatment and it was the dumper. The second I used Palmers spreadsheet to set the residual alkalinity and set the Chloride Sulfate ratio to a 2 to 1 bitter range. It is better but not pleasing to drink.
> 
> So I either do not care for the taste of Maris Otter or I still need to play with the water additions. I think it may be both.
> 
> ...



I've used MO PA for a few brews - no nasty tastes although the bready taste would fit in with my findings - feel it's quite suited to English bitters - I use 1469 yeast which has also been quoted as giving bready tones.

I doubt it's the grain that you are disliking, more likely the yeast? try a brew with 1469 1098 1768 or 1968 if you still have some grain.

The only grain I've found not to my liking was a MO amber which just took over anything it was blended with.

As for water additions, don't use them normally , however I do use at least half filtered water when I brew.


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## Ross (26/9/09)

The Fuggle hop can be a love or hate affair & if not fresh could easily give the aromas/taste you are describing.
I'd put money on it not being the malt unless it's gone slack - is the malt crunchy like a fresh biscuit, or has it gone chewy?

Cheers Ross


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## manticle (26/9/09)

Grantw said:


> but then you haven't told us what yeast you used




s04


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## matti (26/9/09)

I must agree with Ross on the Fuggles.
Also on the malt. chew it.
it should be dry, slightly porous and tasty

I've taste Pumpys brews with Maris Otter and they are great.

Post the recipe.
I'd also look into the water for your area in Oregon.
In Sydney we have fairly soft water and a little addition of salts when brewing British Beers will help the beer.

(I'd use Fuggles for bittering and EKG for flavour less tea like and not so grassy.)


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## altone (26/9/09)

Ross said:


> The Fuggle hop can be a love or hate affair & if not fresh could easily give the aromas/taste you are describing.
> I'd put money on it not being the malt unless it's gone slack - is the malt crunchy like a fresh biscuit, or has it gone chewy?
> 
> Cheers Ross




There are people out there that don't love fuggles?? 
Wouldn't have thought they'd be so unloved that someone would throw away a brew over it.


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## HoppingMad (27/9/09)

+1 with Ross and the fuggles. Was exactly what I was thinking on reading your OT.

Overdo that hop in your brew and you're going to have a mouth full of teabag.

Sounds like hop is the culprit, not the SO4 or the MO.

Hopper.


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## gwozniak (27/9/09)

boddingtons best said:


> There are people out there that don't love fuggles??
> Wouldn't have thought they'd be so unloved that someone would throw away a brew over it.




+1 here. Can a hop make the beer so bad that you would throw it out?


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## PistolPatch (28/9/09)

I'd be a +1 on the SO4 Tom. I've never had a bad Marris Otter beer but have only tasted one beer brewed with SO4 that I enjoyed. I think SO4 might be one of those yeasts that is either offensive to a considerable number of palates or maybe has to brewed within some cryptic parameters to get it right for these palates. Others may well enjoy it but they probably like wheat beer as well .

SO4 is not a yeast I would confidently say, "Yeah, use this yeast, it's great!" (S05 is.) Marris Otter _is_ a pale ale malt I could confidently recommend though.

Did I mention that I hate SO4?


Pat


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## avaneyk (28/9/09)

PistolPatch said:


> Did I mention that I hate SO4?



I still don't really understand what it is people hate about SO4. I've used it in extract bitters and stouts and more recently my first AG which was a stout and although it doesn't provide much character it's never ruined my beer... Admittedly, all the beers I've used it in were either hoppy or had lots of roast character (ie stouts) and this may have hidden the taste of the yeast.

I've used Marris Otter twice now (out of 4 AG batches) the latest is still in the fermenter and hasn't been tasted yet but the APA I used it in was very nice. I wouldn't blame the malt. Like others have said - fuggles can taste like tea if you overdo it. I quite like them mixed with EKG though...


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## katzke (28/9/09)

Thanks for the replies. I can say I do not think it is the yeast. First batch that was dumped was liquid but would have to dig up what number.

It could be the hops. I just finished off my English Wit that had Fuggles and it did have an odd after taste that could be close to the taste I get in the OB.

I did taste a sample of the malt at the shop and it tasted nice. The wort tasted ok as I recall. The sweetness always covers up the true taste.

I am still thinking it could be something to do with the water but no one chimed in and said they are dumping in a bottle of Burton salts or anything like that. It is just odd that an almost identical recipe would improve with some salt additions if water chemistry has nothing to do with it.

I guess it could just be that I do not like the taste of Maris Otter. Or the Fuggles combined with the malt is a taste I do not like. I have used Fuggles in other beers and have not hated them. I will have to look at a substitute to see if I like them better.

I think when I get my small carboy back it may be time for a few mini brews to see if changing the hops helps. I guess I could always try different malts. I am kind of up to the challenge to brew an OB with Maris Otter that I like.


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## mje1980 (28/9/09)

Post the results mate. MO is one of my fave malts.


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## neonmeate (28/9/09)

+1 for fuggles. i'd never use it as a sole hop in a beer, only mixed with goldings and target etc. i get a musky (not musTy) pipe tobacco sort of flavour from it - perhaps you meant musky not musty?


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## Barry (28/9/09)

Good Day
It is hard to tell without tasting the beers. However, tea bag taste plus low gravity bitters could indicate over sparging and tannins extracted. MO is my base ale malt and I find it rich and wonderful especially in English bitters.


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## katzke (28/9/09)

Barry said:


> Good Day
> It is hard to tell without tasting the beers. However, tea bag taste plus low gravity bitters could indicate over sparging and tannins extracted. MO is my base ale malt and I find it rich and wonderful especially in English bitters.



It is hard to describe also. I think I will get some feedback from some other brewers.


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## Barley Belly (28/9/09)

Did this SMASH and it tastes nice :beerbang:
Haven't used it with other malts yet

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 43 Simple Simcoe
Brewer: finners
Asst Brewer: 
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.00 L 
Boil Size: 26.57 L
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 9.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 18.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.75 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (6Grain 100.0 % 
15.00 gm Simcoe [12.30%] (40 min) Hops 18.1 IBU 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Dry Ale Yeast (Fermentis #US-05) Yeast-Ale


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## kevo (28/9/09)

I think I agree on the S04.

Recently did a similar bitter with MO (my 2nd AG)a bit of brown and crystal, EKG, Fugg and S04.

It's good, but there is just something amiss in the malt flavour. Compared to what I tasted going into the fermenter, it's a little disappointing.

But drinkable!

cheers

Kev


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## Fourstar (28/9/09)

Barry said:


> Good Day
> It is hard to tell without tasting the beers. However, tea bag taste plus low gravity bitters could indicate over sparging and tannins extracted. MO is my base ale malt and I find it rich and wonderful especially in English bitters.



This was my 1st thaught as well. If its mouth puckering like a teabag id say you might have some excess tannin extraction. I'd doubt over sparging, moreso an issue with mashout/sparge temps exceeding the 77deg threshold.

I get what ross is saying about fuggles but i doubt that woudl be the root of the problem. Especially if the OP threw out the 1st batch as it was undrinkable.


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## katzke (7/10/09)

Just wanted to say thanks for the ideas. I let it set for many reasons and I think it is the hops that I do not like. It is a little better but still has the off flavor, sorry that is about the best I can describe it as. It could be that I am not a fan of the flavor of a 100% Maris Otter brew but I think the hops have a lot to do with it. I think I will replace the hops in some of my other beers to see if the flavor improves any.


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## Gulpa (7/10/09)

Id be interested to hear what brand of MO people as using. Ive previously used Bairds with great results but this year I have used two bags of TF MO. I would have to say that Im less than impressed with this malt and believe I had better success with the Bairds. It seems to need higher mash temps to bring out the goodies and then its easily overpowered with other specialty malt flavours. I wont be buying it again.




PistolPatch said:


> .. I think SO4 might be one of those yeasts that is either offensive to a considerable number of palates or maybe has to brewed within some cryptic parameters to get it right for these palates.



PP, I think this is right. Some people seem to have the knack with this yeast. Ive tasted some very nice S04 beers where you wouldnt pick it as the yeast used. Others you know immediately from the yeasty aroma that its S04. I will not use it again, I dont have the knack.

cheers
Andrew.


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## tumi2 (7/10/09)

AndrewSA said:


> I still don't really understand what it is people hate about SO4. I've used it in extract bitters and stouts and more recently my first AG which was a stout and although it doesn't provide much character it's never ruined my beer... Admittedly, all the beers I've used it in were either hoppy or had lots of roast character (ie stouts) and this may have hidden the taste of the yeast.
> 
> I've used Marris Otter twice now (out of 4 AG batches) the latest is still in the fermenter and hasn't been tasted yet but the APA I used it in was very nice. I wouldn't blame the malt. Like others have said - fuggles can taste like tea if you overdo it. I quite like them mixed with EKG though...



i am not sure about Marris Otter but i have used S04 several times. Once in a stout that turned out OK but not great, and twice with my first 2 AG English Bittters. Both these beers turned out with a dry dusty musky type taste that i really dont like. I threw the second AG batch out and can just drink the first. They both had the same taste and were produced with the same recipe and process. I am convinced it was the S04 but my science is not journal worthy. I have since done 2 more AG's using S05 and have not had this taste (different recipes compeltely though).

So again it was OK in my stout but foul in the lighter English Bitters.


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