# Kegging Setup CO2 leak - driving me insane



## DJ_L3ThAL (6/1/15)

I appear to have a small leak as I lost most (~1-1.5kg) of my 2.6kg CO2 fresh bottle just before Xmas when I carbed one keg at 3bar for 24 hours. The beer was carbed as expected so then I set back to my serving pressure of 1bar on all 3 kegs.

I normally turn off the bottle after use, so I was finding when I came to use the system the regulator would read slightly lower than 1bar and when opening the bottle valve it would squirt gas into the kegs. I thought it might be the keg lids or post seals as I have some new 2nd hand kegs which I didn't replace all seals, but over about 3-4 uses since Xmas the bottle has no liquid left and just gas.

Did a quick leak test with starsan on all connections and couldn't detect any.

I took it to my LHBS thinking perhaps something could be wrong with the bottle as there is some loose metal inside when I turn it upside down, not sure if the keg king bottles have a float spring type non return valve which may be busted? Although that wouldn't cause leaking outwards... Was told to take bottle home to use remaining gas to keep keg headspace gassed as he didn't have any full bottles left, he's happy to take the bottle to KK for checking for faults later this week.

I thought I'd do a thorough leak test (all at 3 bar pressure) in the interim and have gotten to the end of my tether as I've worked backwards through the system removing branches on disconnects, check valve, ball valves and sections of line. It's gone back to being a barbed hose off the regulator (KK MKII) to a barbed metal nipple into a KK plastic gas splitter. I've got three of these splitters and each one on the end still leaks the same.

A full underwater test of EVERYTHING including bottle and reg didn't reveal any obvious leaks (in fact the air inside the gauges bubbled out as soon as I put it under but I left it all underwater for over an hour to let it settle and still nothing was apparent). Have crimped clamps on barbs even tighter, even thread sealed both threads on the regulator outlet nipple with Teflon tape. Haven't tried the gauge threads or the thread on the regulator type30 outlet steam as the bottle is now empty from my tests.

My main question is, can the cheaper beer/gas line from keg king permeate CO2 out slowly? Or could the CO2 bottle itself be faulty and have a small enough leaks to go undetected but slowly let pressure out over time? The high pressure gauge did seem to consistently drop since I got this bottle and I've reseated the type30 bottle connection multiple times in the interim.

Sorry for the essay, hopefully I've detailed it enough that someone can see something obvious from similar experience!

I can post pics of the system if it would help?


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## DU99 (6/1/15)

i was losing co2 at a very slow rate, found out the washer between the bottle and the reg wasn't seating properly.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (6/1/15)

Thanks for the reply mate, I've got check valves in my system though, so wouldn't explain the loss of pressure downstream of those would it? I've tightened the bottle connection up to the point that I'll need a new washer for the next bottle anyway though lol, also sprayed soapy solution all around that and could not detect any bubbles even tiny ones? So I can inspect, was there visible damage to the washer or a split? Or did you just swap it and then found no more leaks? I'm reluctant to buy another full bottle until I know there are no leaks :S

Side note: Where can you get those washer replacements? I don't see them in the KK catalogue?


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## Dae Tripper (6/1/15)

Just because you have check valves doest mean it won't be leaking downstream. They are simply one way valves. Have you water tested the kegs? Do this with the dissconects on as you may get a leak there as well.


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## GalBrew (6/1/15)

The KK plastic gas splitters are not that great. I used to run 4 joined together and it was constantly leaking. I now run a KK 6-way manifold with no issues.


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## DU99 (6/1/15)

i get my washer's from Supagas..they give me a packet when i last got my co2 bottle filled..the washer wasn't sealing properly.noticed is was very thin and out of shape.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (6/1/15)

Dae Tripper said:


> Just because you have check valves doest mean it won't be leaking downstream. They are simply one way valves. Have you water tested the kegs? Do this with the dissconects on as you may get a leak there as well.


Yes, it would. As the regulator up to the check valve would drop in pressure, but the higher pressure downstream cannot equalise through the check valve, so kegs would remain at the same original pressure. So when I was turning the system on and getting flow which I could hear I to the kegs themselves it indicated a leak downstream. But the plot thickens as below...

What doesn't make sense is that I've tested the system with simply the bottle-regulator-line-1xsplitter with the valve closed and both ports blocked and it still leaks. So whether the kegs or disconnects/posts are leaking is another story as I'd like to be confident the bottle, regulator and gas line are all not leaking before testing further downstream as they at this stage are not the root cause given they've been removed from the system and the leak persists. Hell the check valves could even be passing in both directions, but still wouldn't explain the above simple test case.


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## TheWiggman (6/1/15)

Have you got a pic of the setup? I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to but it sounds like you've done everything right. Here's what I'd do (assuming you have JG fittings). Move onto the next step once each has been confirmed -

1. Turn the check valve BACKWARDS. This will lock air in the line between the reg and the check valve. Turn gas on then off. Put the valve underwater and check for bubbles. Wait an hour, check for a drop in presure. This will confirm a) whether the check valve works and b ) if the leak is in the regulator/bottle

2. Connect the lines to each keg, one by one, to the gas i.e. bottle > reg > gas line > disconnect (do not have connected to keg). Pressurise and come back later. If a drop in pressure is detected then there's a leak.

3. Charge all carbed kegs to the same pressure. Disconnect each. Wait an hour, then come back and re-connect gas. If an individual keg takes gas then there's a leak somewhere in that keg.


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## GalBrew (6/1/15)

I've also had very slow leaks out of the gas post/gas disconnect interface on kegs. Very hard to diagnose with starsan/soapy water spray. I'd replace all of the post seals on the keg(s).


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## stux (6/1/15)

I had slow leaks I couldn't diagnose with soapy water/starsan. I changed everything to JG. everything. Even the nipple on the regulator. (Which is where it was leaking!)


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## DJ_L3ThAL (6/1/15)

TheWiggman said:


> Have you got a pic of the setup? I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to but it sounds like you've done everything right. Here's what I'd do (assuming you have JG fittings). Move onto the next step once each has been confirmed -
> 
> 1. Turn the check valve BACKWARDS. This will lock air in the line between the reg and the check valve. Turn gas on then off. Put the valve underwater and check for bubbles. Wait an hour, check for a drop in presure. This will confirm a) whether the check valve works and b ) if the leak is in the regulator/bottle
> 
> ...


Yep will take and upload some pics tonight into the thread for reference.

1. Has more or less been checked but with the gas splitter tee and ball valve. I'll check with just the check valves to be sure but I am certain there is a leak on the reg, line or bottle.

2 & 3 I'll do once I am confident my bottle and regulator are not leaking, thanks!




GalBrew said:


> I've also had very slow leaks out of the gas post/gas disconnect interface on kegs. Very hard to diagnose with starsan/soapy water spray. I'd replace all of the post seals on the keg(s).


Yep, replacing those will be done for sure!




Stux said:


> I had slow leaks I couldn't diagnose with soapy water/starsan. I changed everything to JG. everything. Even the nipple on the regulator. (Which is where it was leaking!)


I have a setup owned by my mates with a 6kg bottle and all JG fittings (got this a year after getting mine and learning what is better)... I'll borrow it back and test my regulator with the JG fittings and vice versa and see how that goes.



So no one can confirm or deny whether the KK gas line can permeate pressure out, or if the CO2 bottle valve assemblies themselves could be faulty/leak? The loose metal inside the bottle is a concern is it not?


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## woodwormm (6/1/15)

I've found with several push fittings from kk if the hose doesn't go straight in it can leak. I was getting a leak when closing the door put pressure on the pipe. .. but it was evident enough when you bend the pipe at the fitting it would leak too.


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## TheWiggman (6/1/15)

I have a KK reg like yours and it got a leak out of one of the guage threads. This was my fault though because I did it up, though that was KK's fault because I replaced one of the guages myself (first one was faulty).

I find it hard to believe there could be a leak in the bottle assembly, those things are very robustly designed to hadle the extreme pressures they're under. The loose thing internally is not uncommon. On the weekend I swapped an empty LPG bottle and it had a rattle inside.

I use KK gas line on part of my system and no, doesn't leak like you're saying. Permeate yes but not enough to notice over the course of days or weeks.
Was going to say if it was that bad they wouldn't sell it but has you heard of their elements?


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## marksy (6/1/15)

How much pressure are you loosing? Are you talking about bottle side gauge or keg side? 



Did you check the quick connects were on correctly? Or the seal around the main opening of the keg?


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## blekk (6/1/15)

printed forms section said:


> I've found with several push fittings from kk if the hose doesn't go straight in it can leak. I was getting a leak when closing the door put pressure on the pipe. .. but it was evident enough when you bend the pipe at the fitting it would leak too.


I had the same issue with quick disconnects, if it wasn't clicked in straight it would leak very slowly when any slight pressure was put on the hoses.


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## marksy (6/1/15)

My pressure relief valves on the cornies always cause me troubles. They seem to come loose.


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## Camo6 (6/1/15)

I doubt this is any help DJ but I cleaned and pressure tested all of my kegs the other day and found one had lost all pressure overnight. Eventually found a pinhole in the weld around the top of the keg. Two seconds with the TIG and I can now justify to SWMBO the cost of argon rental!


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## DJ_L3ThAL (6/1/15)

TheWiggman said:


> I have a KK reg like yours and it got a leak out of one of the guage threads. This was my fault though because I did it up, though that was KK's fault because I replaced one of the guages myself (first one was faulty).
> 
> I find it hard to believe there could be a leak in the bottle assembly, those things are very robustly designed to hadle the extreme pressures they're under. The loose thing internally is not uncommon. On the weekend I swapped an empty LPG bottle and it had a rattle inside.
> 
> ...


Yes I have heard of their elements, also now thinking their regulators are of a similar quality (refer below).



marksy said:


> How much pressure are you loosing? Are you talking about bottle side gauge or keg side?
> 
> 
> 
> Did you check the quick connects were on correctly? Or the seal around the main opening of the keg?


Depends on how long I left it, the 3bar tests were dropping to 2.5bar within a couple of hours. This morning the bottle only had 2.6bar left so I left the line holding that and came home 10hours later to 2.3bar (photo attached of how I had this mornings test setup.



marksy said:


> My pressure relief valves on the cornies always cause me troubles. They seem to come loose.


Yep they are only hand tightened, even the brand new KK ones are the same, they can easily leak if knocked I have a habit of ensuring they are tight!



Camo6 said:


> I doubt this is any help DJ but I cleaned and pressure tested all of my kegs the other day and found one had lost all pressure overnight. Eventually found a pinhole in the weld around the top of the keg. Two seconds with the TIG and I can now justify to SWMBO the cost of argon rental!


You just wanted to tell us you had an Argon bottle right!! I hope it's BOC ;-)


***UPDATE***
So I continued to overhaul the regulator tonight, managed to thread tape the PRV, pulled the two gauges out and then struggled with the cylinder stem, it would hardly budge. *BUT ALAS!* what was previously to me what appeared to be a "scratch/cut" in the metal coming from the edge of the thread where the steam connects into the regulator body, has now opened to appear somewhat like a *crack* in the regulator body. Haven't confirmed this is the cause (through underwater or soap spray), but sure as hell am going to return it to KK to discuss as it doesn't look like it's meant to be that way (refer photo attached).


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## DJ_L3ThAL (6/1/15)

Also this is the nylon washer from my CO2 bottle, is this too shabby to be re-used? How sensitive are these washers? Anyone got exact dimensions so I can get a box of 50 from a nuts and bolts shop?

I've heard 3/4" OD, 1/4" ID and 1/8" thick, but unconfirmed? Suppose I can get my vernier caliper out... but nice to know what it SHOULD be...


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## Camo6 (6/1/15)

Not sure what it should be but I can assure you that you have found your life partner, you have a caring soul and will live a long happy life. I also do tarot readings and recommend you moisturise.

And did I mention I have argon?

Fwiw if the reg is cracked I'd be taking it back to KK and asking for a gas refill too.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (6/1/15)

Roger that, Argon. HAHA

Yep, will definitely be expecting a refill given it's clearly manufacturer issue not user related! Once that is done it also appears I need to give some TLC and attention to my kegs, perhaps I haven't found my life partner after all!?


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## wobblythongs (7/1/15)

blair said:


> I had the same issue with quick disconnects, if it wasn't clicked in straight it would leak very slowly when any slight pressure was put on the hoses.


Same here just bought stainless gas ball valves for $17 off KK to replace plastic ones, After testing problem has gone without even replacing O ring on posts.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (22/1/15)

Update on this KK gave me a free bottle refill, took back the 2.5year old regulator and let me swap it for a wider fridge drip tray (I'm adding 2 taps soon), so while the product quality lets them down their customer service does not!

Received my micromatic regulator, gas manifold and thicker Valpar superflexmaster2 10mm OD gas line, time to put it altogether and leak test then drill through fridge and finally put gas leak issues aside, hopefully!


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## DJ_L3ThAL (20/2/15)

It's *DONE* (well... 2 weeks ago)! Hole drilled, manifold installed, first hefe poured that was purged, carbonated and served with the new gas system.

Basically just drilled through the plastic using a piece of wood as a depth limiter, poked around inside with a screwdriver all I could feel was foam insulation to the back outer metal surface. Still completely shat myself when drilling the hole. Wrapped the gas line with some sticky tape where it passes through the hole to prevent cutting the outer diameter of the line. Used a John Guest union off the regulator bottle so that I can disconnect the bottle easily from the fridge.

No leaks, tested both submerged under water before installing to fridge and by a "drop test" once installed.

Also weighed the gas bottled after being connected to 4 kegs for 2 weeks and no change in weight - good.

Main issue I encountered was with keg king manifold I did need to undo 3 of the 4 valves, apply more thread sealant to the threads and re-tighten, as well as the hose barb in 2 of them needing nipping up tighter as it leaked there also. I also lubed the seal around the pin in my disconnects with Skerra lube and now the pin does not leak, previously I think the seals were dry and would leak if not connected to a keg.

Some pics of it along the way and finished setup below in my gallery.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/image/8934-hole-drilling-careful-careful/

Thanks to all for the advice/assistance, particularly Martin at National Homebrew


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## stux (20/2/15)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Basically just drilled through the plastic using a piece of wood as a depth limiter, poked around inside with a screwdriver all I could feel was foam insulation to the back outer metal surface. Still completely shat myself when drilling the hole. Wrapped the gas line with some sticky tape where it passes through the hole to prevent cutting the outer diameter of the line.



I use airlock grommets to line the holes in the fridge wall... bit like this


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## DJ_L3ThAL (20/2/15)

Nice one! I was wrapped to get through unscatched, be too scared to drill the hole bigger and used my biggest drill bit anyway and was tight squeeze. Its 10mm OD line...


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## TheWiggman (25/4/17)

Was thinking about starting a new thread but this will do. I have a Keg King reg and it's been my only reg since day dot. I had a drama with it some time ago (see earlier in the thread) but have noticed I only get about 8-10 kegs out of a 2.6kg bottle if I'm lucky. No other experience, so accepted it. Others have mentioned 16-20 kegs . It's run out again after a few months so I disconnected it from everything and gassed it up. Walked away, and came back an hour later to see the pressure gauges at zero. I put my investigator hat on.

Dunked all disconnects and tees into water for a minute - no leak identified
Single disconnect - still leaking
Sprayed every thread on the reg I could see - no leak identified
Replaced the gas line (assuming a split line) - still leaking
Undid the reg and had a good hard look. No apparent issues. Gave all threads and sealing surfaces a lick of liquid sealant and did them all back up.
STILL LEAKING. It takes about 15 mins to drop 70 kPa in 500mm of gas line, but it's a leak all the same.
There is a leak somewhere within this reg and I'm guessing it's through the centre of the diaphragm. I'm giving up, might do a QldKev and not bother with KK stuff any more unless someone can give me some good advice from experience on where the issue lies.


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## Danscraftbeer (25/4/17)

I can only think of elimination of all possibilities which means all threads and connections or replace the dial? Is that what you mean?


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## Danscraftbeer (25/4/17)

Oh, um, 16 to 20 kegs for 2.6kg bottled co2 is doing very well and conservative. I do more than just push beer with my co2. I am still working out how much I use for my brew house turn over but that seems ok to me. I have a larger bottle. Yet to make a comparison to your turn over etc but that doesn't sound bad to me... :unsure:


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## Inconceivable (25/4/17)

TheWiggman said:


> Was thinking about starting a new thread but this will do. I have a Keg King reg and it's been my only reg since day dot. I had a drama with it some time ago (see earlier in the thread) but have noticed I only get about 8-10 kegs out of a 2.6kg bottle if I'm lucky. No other experience, so accepted it. Others have mentioned 16-20 kegs . It's run out again after a few months so I disconnected it from everything and gassed it up. Walked away, and came back an hour later to see the pressure gauges at zero. I put my investigator hat on.
> 
> Dunked all disconnects and tees into water for a minute - no leak identified
> Single disconnect - still leaking
> ...


Ok so hang on a second. Aren't you going back on your own advice from Jan '15 here? When you said you "disconnected it from everything" just now what is still connected to the gas bottle?

Just the gas bottle, a reg, a gas line from reg to a manifold, and a manifold with all taps shutoff might be an example of a _minimum_ and if this doesn't hold pressure then you don't need to bother looking at your Disconnects.

I guess I'm confused by your process of elimination because you want to be confident the gas is holding pressure in the minimal setup before you start putting Disconnects, MFLs, and Posts in play

I've lost two Co2 bottles in the last 3 x months and the causes for me where:


using too many JG imitation connectors on the gas side; I had a few leaking - Fix was to piss them all off and use large ID line with barbs
a leak coming from under a new liquid post I hadn't tightened down enough
a leak coming from the top of a new MFL that was screwed on to a disconnect that I seemed to have made too tight
leaks coming from the PRV which wasn't re-seated correctly because the pull ring was holding it slightly ajar
My favourite diagnostic tool now is one of the kids little paint brushes that I use to paint morning fresh dish liquid on every seam. It seems to stick better and bubble more obviously than some of the other methods I've used to try to show bubbles.

anyway good luck I feel your pain. It's a nice feeling to use the process of elimination and see your setup hold pressure time and again until finally it doesn't and you know whatever the new variable is must be the issue


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## TheWiggman (25/4/17)

No manifolds in my case and I have mostly push on JG fittings. With a reg, 500mm of line and a single gas disconnect I'm losing pressure - with the disconnect underwater not showing any bubbles. The leak is in the reg or at the bottle washer, and the bottle washer is brand new (replaced today). I'd love to dunk the reg underwater but not sure how good that is for anything. I suppose at this rate it's a bin job, might as well.


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## Danscraftbeer (25/4/17)

Bin what part though? Its just one singular part that is failing.
I try to eliminate parts etc. I have gone to a manifold but I'm sceptical about its non return valved ability. Another story.

I've never used JG stuff. I never like the idea of (easy plug in) over real mechanical seal like a screwable hose clamp that I prefer.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (26/4/17)

TheWiggman said:


> No manifolds in my case and I have mostly push on JG fittings. With a reg, 500mm of line and a single gas disconnect I'm losing pressure - with the disconnect underwater not showing any bubbles. The leak is in the reg or at the bottle washer, and the bottle washer is brand new (replaced today). I'd love to dunk the reg underwater but not sure how good that is for anything. I suppose at this rate it's a bin job, might as well.


You can dunk the whole regulator, but you'd need to make certain you dried everything including the internals. CO2 + Water = carbonic acid. You could make up a spray bottle of strong water and detergent and spray the regulator entirely and look for active bubbles even very very slight ones should show up.

Anyways, more practical suggestion might be to firstly check that you are opening the cylinder valve FULLY, as just cracking it open a little bit puts most of the pressure force up the valve stem and that will just sit there leaking continually. Second would be to check the thread in the body of the regulator where the inlet stem comes in, I had a KK reg that had a hairline crack here as they use such thin metal and all the regulator weight sits here plus forces when you move the cylinder with regulator connected.


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## mstrelan (26/4/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Anyways, more practical suggestion might be to firstly check that you are opening the cylinder valve FULLY, as just cracking it open a little bit puts most of the pressure force up the valve stem and that will just sit there leaking continually.


Is this a thing???


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## DJ_L3ThAL (26/4/17)

mstrelan said:


> Is this a thing???


Yes as the valve seat doesn't fully clear the main cylinder port so the path of least resistance is against the valve steam seal which is usually just a couple of orings... 50-300bar pressure that cylinders can be filled to depending on gas is a lot of force...


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## TheWiggman (26/4/17)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Bin what part though? Its just one singular part that is failing.


The regulator. The leak is between the outlet of the bottle and the outlet of the regulator. And it's not necessarily a single part.

I don't leave the gas half open, I give it at least a turn when it's on. I've gotta get a refill but I'll definitely dunk that reg once it's back. A number of sponsors have higher quality regulators (Micromatic, Tseuco) so considering I'm probably down about $80-100 in gas over the years it's a worthwhile investment. In the meantime I can tolerate a very minor gas leakage.


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## damoninja (26/4/17)

Maybe already covered but the nylon seal _should _be replaced every time you remove the regulator, take a look at an old one the face won't be completely flat it will have a compression that won't always get pressed against in exactly the same place.


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## Rocker1986 (26/4/17)

I turn the gas bottle on fully as in, open it up until it doesn't move any further. I have been using a Micromatic regulator for the last year and a half and it hasn't faulted so far.


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## Grott (26/4/17)

Try plumbers tap on bottle thread and smear keg lube on both sides of the washer. Then get some soapy water and a brush and turn pressure on reg to 40psi, any leaks should be detected if not heard.


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## damoninja (26/4/17)

grott said:


> Try plumbers tap on bottle thread and smear keg lube on both sides of the washer.


Tape = no no, you'll get bits of the crap down the inside of the regulator, great way to turn it in to a paper weight. 

Dunno about lube, but as long as you made it a very very thin amount it might be OK. 

For a 50c part though I'd say just replace and do it up ******* tight


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## Grott (26/4/17)

damoninja said:


> Tape = no no, you'll get bits of the crap down the inside of the regulator, great way to turn it in to a paper weight.
> 
> Sorry but there is no way it can get into the reg, it's on the outside thread of the gas bottle and the nut of the reg screws on/over this.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (26/4/17)

It won't be the thread on the type 30 connection unless you are deaf, as 50bar leaking out of a thread will always be an audible leak. As mentioned above the nylon washer gives the high pressure seal to the cylinder, thread tape is a HUGE no no and will cause leaks as it doesn't let you compress the nylon washer effectively. You should be able to do the regulator up hand tight and then a 1/8 to 1/4 turn with a spanner to tighten, if it leaks then the washer is damaged and needs replacing. Again this will be audible and not a minor leak due to the full high pressure.

One full turn is NOT fully open, try spraying the top of the cylinder handle with soapy water. You maybe surprised what you find. Also the Inlet stem thread I mentioned...


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## DJ_L3ThAL (26/4/17)

This shows what I mean for tightening the regulator on and also regarding opening of the cylinder valve.

https://youtu.be/Qa7P5qKf1e4


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## Grott (26/4/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> As mentioned above the nylon washer gives the high pressure seal to the cylinder, thread tape is a HUGE no no and will cause leaks as it doesn't let you compress the nylon washer effectively.



To understand is to learn. The thread on the gas bottle that secures the reg using the type 30 nut is no where near the nylon washer and has no effect in letting "you compress the nylon washer effectively". Could you explain how. Only interested.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (26/4/17)

grott said:


> To understand is to learn. The thread on the gas bottle that secures the reg using the type 30 nut is no where near the nylon washer and has no effect in letting "you compress the nylon washer effectively". Could you explain how. Only interested.


Sure mate happy to, Gascon have good info on the cylinder thread types here http://www.gascon.com.au/content/products/pdf/Valve_Summary_AS2473.3.pdf

You can see the flat face of the type 30 male. This is where the nylon washer sits and is squeezed up to make the seal as you tighten the nut over the thread. Hope that makes it clear. Cheers.


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## Grott (26/4/17)

Thanks for that, appreciated. No tape!


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## Lionman (26/4/17)

My 6KG keg king bottle is pretty much empty after carbonating and dispensing about 15 kegs over 10 or so months. It runs through a 3 way manifold that is connected to two kegs.

I'm fairly sure it should be able to do about 10 times this amount so I'm guessing I have a leak.

When I set up the system I did the spray down check with starsan and found one leak where the output on the reg wasn't tight so I fixed that.

I couldn't find any other leaks after that. I'm a bit lost as to where to look now. Do I have to remove the entire system from the fridge and test all the components in the bath?

What is the most likely culprit? Where the reg attaches to the bottle?


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## Grott (26/4/17)

A 6kg bottle should enable you to carb and dispense about 45 x 19l kegs, so you have a slow leak over 10 months. You need to go through a step by step process.
1) turn manifold off, put 40psi out of bottle and turn bottle off. After a couple of hours check the gauge and if it hasn't dropped the bottle/reg/hose connections and at the manifold are not leaking.
2) if not leaking then remove gas disconnects from kegs, open manifold turn bottle on so 40psi is up to the disconnects. Turn bottle off and check pressure after a couple of hours.

If there is a drop in pressure the leak is from manifold or disconnect connections. If no leak the the kegs need to be looked at.

If you follow this let us know the result so we can work from there.


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## Lionman (26/4/17)

grott said:


> A 6kg bottle should enable you to carb and dispense about 45 x 19l kegs, so you have a slow leak over 10 months. You need to go through a step by step process.
> 1) turn manifold off, put 40psi out of bottle and turn bottle off. After a couple of hours check the gauge and if it hasn't dropped the bottle/reg/hose connections and at the manifold are not leaking.
> 2) if not leaking then remove gas disconnects from kegs, open manifold turn bottle on so 40psi is up to the disconnects. Turn bottle off and check pressure after a couple of hours.
> 
> ...


Roger that, thanks for the guidance.

I'll follow these steps and see what I can find.

I guess every time the kegs are touched a test should be done similar to what you have mentioned confirming no leaks? I guess you could get a small leak at a post or lid seal that you would need to check for.

I think I have been a bit complacent, need to improve my kegging procedure.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (26/4/17)

Good quality fittings, setup correctly and maintained (ie. orings on keg posts lubed and/or replaced as needed) won't need rechecking. My current 2.6kg bottle has lasted almost a year (15/7/2015 was swap date) and has pushed out MANY kegs and fluid when cleaning/flushing. Haven't weighed it in a while to see how much is left but it proves you can quite easily have a totally leak free system. I don't even turn the cylinder valve off, ever. It's located in my lounge room also.

If you systematically leak check everything bit by bit you'll find one or more leaks and can fix them as you go. Don't rule out your kegs leaking either.


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## Jack of all biers (26/4/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> If you systematically leak check everything bit by bit you'll find one or more leaks and can fix them as you go. Don't rule out your kegs leaking either.


Yep, about week two into my systematic leak check of a new system (KK kegerator S4). Major leaks fixed and now only a minor leak(s) that is/are SLOW, but still to go. Soapy foam trick has not really found it/them, but maybe I'm not persistent enough. I filled two kegs up with water and carbed to test the whole system. I tested the regulator alone and initially found a leak, but it holds pressure fine now over a couple of days. I checked the line, stage by stage and thought it was holding (over a day or two), but when I connected the kegs, I found the pressure going down. I went away for a week, so disconnected the kegs to double check the keg. The line was pressurized and the bottle turned off. High Pressure gauge 5600kpa, low pressure gauge 10 psi. After 7 days the High pressure gauge was 4000kpa and low pressure just under 10psi (my initial reading may have been by eye so by angle slightly off). Checked again today (another 24 hours after the 7 day check) and HP 3400kpa and LP just under 10psi. Now I really have tried to find that F*&king leak, but it must be minuscule or pressure changes due to temperature have resulted in a change of pressure in the line (a cooling occurred here in Adelaide this last week). Is this even theoretically possible? 

Am I frustratingly chasing a gas leak that is not there or should I just give up and turn the bottle off every time it's not in use or should I keep persisting with finding that F*&king leak :unsure: I hear what DJ is saying and want that to be my system, but really am struggling to find the VERY SLOW leak.

EDIT - The major leaks were found by the whole system being removed from fridge unit and manifold and disconnects dunked under water, which found one disconnect leaking from top (tightened to fix, which resulted in one major leak being fixed). Leaks from reg to bottle fixed by tightening nut and reg to line by tightening nut. Now soapy bubbles aren't finding anything. This was all done prior to this last week in which the change in HP has been 2000kpa over 8 days with the bottle off and kegs disconnected.


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## Chap (26/4/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Don't rule out your kegs leaking either.


I lost a 2.6kg bottle in a matter of days. Turns out the out post internal o rings were no good. Replaced and lubed, no further issues. 

Like DJ said, don't rule out the kegs, take a systematic and elimination approach and hopefully you find the culprit asap


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## enoch (26/4/17)

Chap said:


> I lost a 2.6kg bottle in a matter of days. Turns out the out post internal o rings were no good. Replaced and lubed, no further issues.
> Like DJ said, don't rule out the kegs, take a systematic and elimination approach and hopefully you find the culprit asap


The gas post external oring is my first port of call for a leak. They are rubber and they perish and crackers eventually.
Run your finger round them before refilling. I just use water qd orings now as they are cheap and I change ever 12 months or so.


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## Rocker1986 (26/4/17)

My 6.8kg cylinders last about 11-12 months, I haven't kept track of the number of kegs that have gone through them though. I guess it's about 4-5 kegs every 2 months or so, so around 25-30 all up, this includes the soda water keg that takes up residence when there's a spare spot available. I also use the gas for pushing cleaner and rinse water out of each emptied keg. I suppose it also depends on how highly carbonated the beers are kept too. I like mine on the higher side of mid-range.

In any event, swapping a gas cylinder once a year isn't something that bothers me. If they were only lasting a month or two then there'd be a problem.


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## FarsideOfCrazy (27/4/17)

Jack of all biers said:


> . Now I really have tried to find that F*&king leak, but it must be minuscule or pressure changes due to temperature have resulted in a change of pressure in the line (a cooling occurred here in Adelaide this last week). Is this even theoretically possible?



Hi Jack,

I'm having a problem with a slow leak also. But this comment made me take notice. Yes temperature can effect the pressure in your c02 system. 

I had/have a leak in my system, firstly it was the hose on the barb had been bent and had split the line, fixed that, still leaking. Going crazy couldn't find a leak anywhere. Thought about submerging my reg, don't do this as the gauges aren't water proof and can be damaged. But I found another leak by a fluke. While spraying soapy water around the gauges some ran down onto the front face of my micromatic reg. A lot of bubbles appeared from where the face screws in to the body. This part is sealed by the diaphragm behind it. Removed the front face to make sure the reg was clean wiped a small amount of keg lube around the contact edge of the diaphragm (not sure if this was wise) tightened it all up, and hey presto, no more leaks while it only had a disconnect connected to a short piece of line.

Left it for 3 weeks no pressure drop except when the temp dropped by about 15 degrees, Check on google you can find a image on gas c02 pressure in relation to outside temperature. 

Then I put the one way valve back in, JG fitting version, and the gas disconnect (different one from the first test) and now the leak is back. 

I've just purchased some new gas disconnects with barb fittings and I hope that when I get a chance to connect everything up and check it for leaks, it doesn't effing leak!


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## DJ_L3ThAL (27/4/17)

Jack of all biers said:


> Yep, about week two into my systematic leak check of a new system (KK kegerator S4). Major leaks fixed and now only a minor leak(s) that is/are SLOW, but still to go. Soapy foam trick has not really found it/them, but maybe I'm not persistent enough. I filled two kegs up with water and carbed to test the whole system. I tested the regulator alone and initially found a leak, but it holds pressure fine now over a couple of days. I checked the line, stage by stage and thought it was holding (over a day or two), but when I connected the kegs, I found the pressure going down. I went away for a week, so disconnected the kegs to double check the keg. The line was pressurized and the bottle turned off. High Pressure gauge 5600kpa, low pressure gauge 10 psi. After 7 days the High pressure gauge was 4000kpa and low pressure just under 10psi (my initial reading may have been by eye so by angle slightly off). Checked again today (another 24 hours after the 7 day check) and HP 3400kpa and LP just under 10psi. Now I really have tried to find that F*&king leak, but it must be minuscule or pressure changes due to temperature have resulted in a change of pressure in the line (a cooling occurred here in Adelaide this last week). Is this even theoretically possible?
> 
> Am I frustratingly chasing a gas leak that is not there or should I just give up and turn the bottle off every time it's not in use or should I keep persisting with finding that F*&king leak :unsure: I hear what DJ is saying and want that to be my system, but really am struggling to find the VERY SLOW leak.
> 
> EDIT - The major leaks were found by the whole system being removed from fridge unit and manifold and disconnects dunked under water, which found one disconnect leaking from top (tightened to fix, which resulted in one major leak being fixed). Leaks from reg to bottle fixed by tightening nut and reg to line by tightening nut. Now soapy bubbles aren't finding anything. This was all done prior to this last week in which the change in HP has been 2000kpa over 8 days with the bottle off and kegs disconnected.


Unfortunately it took me hours of pain. See this video of a tiny leak I found on a brand new higher quality (non Keg King) manifold which I am currently using (without leaks). 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaUmyhP-c8Q&feature=em-upload_owner
I had to remove the valve, clean the thread and re-apply some Loctite thread sealant. Two wraps of high quality teflon tape should do the same but for long term use the thread sealant used as per manufacturer's instructions is the go as it forms a pressure bond when squeezed and does not need Oxygen/Air to set.

Again, I HAVE put my whole regulator under water, I just made sure I dried it straight away by blowing out with an air compressor etc. This was how I found the steam thread leak mentioned earlier in the thread. If you don't dry parts then yes you will have problems. 




FarsideOfCrazy said:


> I'm having a problem with a slow leak also. But this comment made me take notice. Yes temperature can effect the pressure in your c02 system.
> 
> Left it for 3 weeks no pressure drop except when the temp dropped by about 15 degrees, Check on google you can find a image on gas c02 pressure in relation to outside temperature.


While you are correct that ambient temperature affects the pressure of any gas in any system. Gaseous CO2 pressure fluctuations in a beer system (even commercial size) due to ambient temperature is a negligible effect. You would not see it or measure it really on the gauges we have. More likely you are seeing fluctuations in the gauge bourdon tube system due to the metals expansion/contraction with ambient temperature changes.

The pressure versus ambient temperature charts you are likely referring to are relevant for the CO2 cylinder only, as the Liquid-Gas equilibirum (balance) will change with ambient temperature. So I'll quote a rough pressure of 5000kPa in your CO2 bottle, but this in summer could be much higher as the liquid CO2 boils off more CO2 into gas to stay in equilibirum, the reverse happens when it is cold. The same effect is seen when using a BBQ LPG gas bottle for a while and you see condensation or ice (at the case swaps when we smash them) on the bottle, because the cylinder is using heat from the air to boil off the liquid LPG to replace it as gas because you are withdrawing gas from the bottle. It wants to stay in liquid-gas equilibirum.

The other thing you are seeing where you pressurise the system, then turn the cylinder off and the high pressure gauge drops over time and the low stays relatively the same means you most likely have a leak downstream of the regulator, or on the regulator outlet or main body face. Because the low pressure side is supplying gas to the leak from the high pressure side. So this hopefully pin points it.

You can of course simply connect one short run of nylon to a ball valve or quick disconnect off your regulator and use that to pressure/leak test and see. This would rule out the regulator if you don't want to put it all underwater. But underwater is the only way to see TINY leaks (refer my video above), even the commercial grade leak detecting VRV fluid I use at work wouldn't have picked that up.

Hope that makes sense.


==== Also.... just realised I'm the OP haha, so will provide some more info on the path I followed, helpful or unhelpful ====

For others reading this thread, persistence pays. But I think sadly I learned this but starting with high qualitry fittings greatly reduces the amount of small leaks you need to chase. Some of the Keg King fittings I had originally wouldn't leak one minute but when disturbed or moved leaks to buggery. Not only can the gas post on a keg leak, but the gas disconnect can leak, take it apart with a large flathead screwdriver from the top and luber up the o-ring seals (inspect it first as any rough bits or cracks means it WILL be leaking). It is easy to dunk these under water.

As for orings, someone mentioned plumbers grade, I'm paranoid about food grade stuff so always use silicone where I can. The red silicone orings are awesome and I bought all types I needed from eBay and have enough for myself and my future children. Here are the order numbers for the types available.

Keg post *111*
Keg dip tube *109*
Keg lid *417*? (Check, I have not purchased this one)
Keg PRV *104*
Keg poppet (universal) *105*

Quick Disconnect small for the pin *103* (2.38x7.14mm, measured 2.6x8.0mm)
Quick Disconnect large for the top cap *111* (11.11x15.86, measured 10.8x15.0)

Vessel wall (bulkhead) 1/2" BSP 20ID x 26OD mm

Can be ordered here: http://stores.ebay.com/Oringsandmore


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## TheWiggman (27/4/17)

Well here's another lesson that you should never doubt me 
I dunked the reg underwater today (off work, crook as a dog) and found a small leak under the adjustment handle. I sealed that area up, so I'm confident the diaphragm has a leak - likely in the middle where it is fused to brass. Short of getting replacement diaphragms, a new reg is in order.


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## Lionman (27/4/17)

I shut the input on my manifold off and shut the tank off and the line has maintained 10psi for 24 hours. Doesn't appear to be a leak at the reg then, I think.

Edit: actually, the tank pressure gauge may have dropped. It was hard to tell because there is almost no pressure in the tank but when I turned the gas back on the needle jumped a little.

I took the reg off the tank to go and exchange it and noticed a tiny black oring in the outlet port and of the tank. It sure where that was meant to go.


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## Jack of all biers (27/4/17)

Thanks DJ and Farside for the feed back. :beer:



DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Unfortunately it took me hours of pain. See this video of a tiny leak I found on a brand new higher quality (non Keg King) manifold which I am currently using (without leaks).
> 
> I had to remove the valve, clean the thread and re-apply some Loctite thread sealant. Two wraps of high quality teflon tape should do the same but for long term use the thread sealant used as per manufacturer's instructions is the go as it forms a pressure bond when squeezed and does not need Oxygen/Air to set.


Cheers for the video DJ, I did dunk my manifold under water, as I was sure (given others experience) that my KK manifold would leak. I watched it like a hawk for 10-15 mins and not one single bubble. One of the top covers of one disconnect did bubble, but that was easily fixed with a screw driver. 




DJ_L3ThAL said:


> The other thing you are seeing where you pressurise the system, then turn the cylinder off and the high pressure gauge drops over time and the low stays relatively the same means you most likely have a leak downstream of the regulator, or on the regulator outlet or main body face. Because the low pressure side is supplying gas to the leak from the high pressure side. So this hopefully pin points it.
> 
> You can of course simply connect one short run of nylon to a ball valve or quick disconnect off your regulator and use that to pressure/leak test and see. This would rule out the regulator if you don't want to put it all underwater. But underwater is the only way to see TINY leaks (refer my video above), even the commercial grade leak detecting VRV fluid I use at work wouldn't have picked that up.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.


Makes sense and I guess I haven't been as methodical as I thought. I will have to give it a crack I guess as I don't really want to have to live with a leak as it will bug me everytime I look at the thing. Thanks for the tips. The reg LP is 10 psi (as set) and HP is down to 2500 kPa today (day 9 of test) so definitely a leak somewhere in the system. Sigh, once I eventually get this sorted I will move on to the kegs. Hopefully no leaks there. FIRST WORLD problems I guess. Will have a :chug: and get over it eventually.

EDIT - Oh and thanks for the link to the O'ring seller. Typical as I just paid almost 5 times the price for a few from KK. Doh. (smacks forehead)


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## abyss (27/4/17)

Great info DJ.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (27/4/17)

Lionman said:


> I took the reg off the tank to go and exchange it and noticed a tiny black oring in the outlet port and of the tank. It sure where that was meant to go.


That little black o-ring is squished in almost every Keg King swap-and-go cylinder I've received. It's a seal for the non-return valve which is there to prevent people from filling the cylinder or anything finding it's way back into the cylinder and contaminating it. You can ignore it as it will cause no issues for you at all (it's all internal to the seal you make when connecting your regulator).....

.....or you can use an allen key to remove the fitting, seat the o-ring correctly and wonder who trained the guy re-filling Keg King cylinders like I do, LOL.


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## Lionman (27/4/17)

I noticed that the valves on my manifold audibly leak from the stem when upward pressure is applied to the handle. Looks like this is probably the culprit.

Serves me right. I bought decent quality stuff for the rest of the system but skimped on the manifold.

I think I will swap it out for some T barbs.


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## Rocker1986 (28/4/17)

I had T-piece splitters once, fuckin pain in the arse compared to the manifold I have now. This manifold had a leak in one of the valve threads when I first got it, and I quickly lost over half a bottle of gas because of it. When I located it, I noticed that the offending valve was screwed in a full turn tighter than the other three that weren't leaking. I removed all the valves, as well as the inlet barb and stopper on the respective ends of the manifold, and put silicone in and on all threads, then screwed them back into place. Not had any problems since. I like it because I can switch on and off gas to individual kegs as well as have the spare line for purging etc.

I have kept the T-piece splitters in case of emergency though.


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## Lionman (28/4/17)

I'll look into that. I did a dunk test on th manifold and it doesn't appear to be lacking normally, just when the handles have pressure on them which is good.


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## klangers (28/4/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> That little black o-ring is squished in almost every Keg King swap-and-go cylinder I've received. It's a seal for the non-return valve which is there to prevent people from filling the cylinder or anything finding it's way back into the cylinder and contaminating it. You can ignore it as it will cause no issues for you at all (it's all internal to the seal you make when connecting your regulator).....
> 
> .....or you can use an allen key to remove the fitting, seat the o-ring correctly and wonder who trained the guy re-filling Keg King cylinders like I do, LOL.


It caused me all sorts of issues, actually. It's the "residual pressure valve" and it's a pain in the arse. I removed it and didn't refit it as it's completely unecessary if you're not an idiot know how to use gas bottles safely.











Also, the only thing that makes an o ring "food grade" is that it's tolerant to caustic and other harsh chemicals. Something that isn't food grade doesn't mean it's not suitable for potable water or gases. They just aren't up to harsh cleaning, which should be a non-issue for gas lines.


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## Lionman (28/4/17)

also never release that valve while full kegs are connected unless you want beer in your gas lines.


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## damoninja (28/4/17)

grott said:


> Sorry but there is no way it can get into the reg, it's on the outside thread of the gas bottle and the nut of the reg screws on/over this.


Get what you mean but not the first time, but when you take it off the stuff is shredded and bits of it can get anywhere, could easily get decent sized particles down the core and in to the reg. 

While unlikely, you shouldn't need to do it anyway and for the risk of blowing a reg and having a much higher pressure in your lines/kegs than you'd care for or incorrect gauge readings.


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## FarsideOfCrazy (28/4/17)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> While you are correct that ambient temperature affects the pressure of any gas in any system. Gaseous CO2 pressure fluctuations in a beer system (even commercial size) due to ambient temperature is a negligible effect. You would not see it or measure it really on the gauges we have. More likely you are seeing fluctuations in the gauge bourdon tube system due to the metals expansion/contraction with ambient temperature changes.
> 
> The pressure versus ambient temperature charts you are likely referring to are relevant for the CO2 cylinder only, as the Liquid-Gas equilibirum (balance) will change with ambient temperature. So I'll quote a rough pressure of 5000kPa in your CO2 bottle, but this in summer could be much higher as the liquid CO2 boils off more CO2 into gas to stay in equilibirum, the reverse happens when it is cold. The same effect is seen when using a BBQ LPG gas bottle for a while and you see condensation or ice (at the case swaps when we smash them) on the bottle, because the cylinder is using heat from the air to boil off the liquid LPG to replace it as gas because you are withdrawing gas from the bottle. It wants to stay in liquid-gas equilibirum.



Yes, sorry should have been clearer about my post. The temperature drop that happened to me effecting the pressure gauge was the high pressure gauge only.


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## Gloveski (28/4/17)

keg posts have been an issue for me , nothing some lube hasn't fixed


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## FarsideOfCrazy (27/8/17)

A bit off topic but, the guys who ordered orings from orings and more, how long did they take to arrive? 

Mine were shipped on August 12th so just wondering how long it took to get to Australia

Cheers


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## Grott (27/8/17)

Got mine within 14 days as remembered, it was real quick.


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