# Throw Out Your Cubes



## dr K

Those who know me also know that when it comes to No-Chill I am at best not an advocate.
I have never, and probably never will, disparage the "Fresh Wort Kits" that are available from many suppliers, they are streets ahead of standard kit brews but in the end thats what they are.
I pose the question...what makes no chill fly?
## It causes no more reported cases of botulism that conventional chilling.
## It allows you to brew over two days rather than one
## It saves the cost of a chiller
## You can't tell the difference (purely subjective and should be not be here but passes due to sarcasm)
## It saves water
## Late hopping is difficult as the alpha acids continue to isomorise in the cube
## Aroma hopping presents even greater problems than late hopping.
## DMS forms
## It adds another path to infection
## It takes more work, more time, more water and more chemicals to clean a cube than an immersion chiller.

A small investment (not more than the cost of a couple of cubes) will produce (subjectively) better beer, certainly reduce the formation of DMS, increase late hop aroma (if thats what you want), get your IBU's closer to the recipe you follow and allow you to use your waste water on your garden (which means I guess it's not waste!).
The current issue of Zymurgy (The Journal of the American Home Brewers Association) has a Geek article about wort chilling which you check out if you are a member.
Nine (9) meters of 12.7mm OD copper coils will set you back about $45.
The graphs and my experience show that you can cool 5 USGal (18ish litres) of boiling wort to 27C with this 9 meters (re-coiled to fit your kettle ) in about 18 minuteds and about half that if you whirlpool, or even just move the wort around constantly.
I whirlpool with a pump and here is what it looks like Break and Trub

Your wort is now ready to pitch, no more waiting till the next day, no more cleaning the cube as well as the fermentor, your $45 immersion chiller is hosed off at the same time as your kettle, life is good and as you savour the fresh hop aroma of your Yes-Chill beer you wonder how to re-use those cubes and thank your personal diety that you are not a sheep.!!

K


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## ///

I just burnt the wifes Bra, can I be a member of this club?


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## daemon

Not sure about everyone else, but I no-chill because I can have beer ready to ferment when I need it, not when I get time to brew. I can build up my own FWK's if I get a day or weekend spare but don't have to wait until I have a fermenter and/or keg spare.

It's not about cost, it's all about convenience. I've made IPA's using no-chill and I've made beers with hops over 16% AA without problems. Plenty of flavour and aroma if done right, like any good brewer I know how I need to compensate a recipe to suit my system.


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## RdeVjun

Zymurgy you say? Say, what's the stock code for the parent?
Oh dear, that call to my stockbroker will have to wait as I've all of sudden come down with botulism... oh my, I will have to reschedule pitching day as well, how inconvenient.


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## Fat Bastard

/// said:


> I just burnt the wifes Bra, can I be a member of this club?


Only if she was still wearing it.

I looked into No-Chill when I was investigating AG 6 months or so ago, and when I weighed it all up, I forked out $130 for the plate chiller. I think it's one of those things that on the surface of it seems easier, but in fact complicates things due to the reasons in the OP.

For $130, I didn't even think it was worth stuffing around making an immersion or counterflow chiller, and I like stuffing around so much I made my own electric kettle and temperature controller.


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## dr K

/// said:


> I just burnt the wifes Bra, can I be a member of this club?


You have to burn your undies first
With a blow torch..in situ !!!

K


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## Yob

ive read of just as many people with chillers getting infected as cubers, im currently a nc atm as it just suits my proccess and equipment and where im at.. will that change? more than likely as i love the builds and im getting ino pumps now too.. 

mmmmm 4v hx

horses 4 courses yeah?? is there that big a difference?


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## dr K

iamozziyob said:


> ive read of just as many people with chillers getting infected as cubers, im currently a nc atm as it just suits my proccess and equipment and where im at.. will that change? more than likely as i love the builds and im getting ino pumps now too..
> 
> mmmmm 4v hx
> 
> horses 4 courses yeah?? is there that big a difference?



Did I say that that NC would cause infections?
Did I say that YC would not cause infections?

OP


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## under

I just chuck the cubes in the pool. Cooled in about 45mins to pitch temp.


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## bigandhairy

Daemon said:


> Not sure about everyone else, but I no-chill because I can have beer ready to ferment when I need it, not when I get time to brew. I can build up my own FWK's if I get a day or weekend spare but don't have to wait until I have a fermenter and/or keg spare.
> 
> It's not about cost, it's all about convenience. I've made IPA's using no-chill and I've made beers with hops over 16% AA without problems. Plenty of flavour and aroma if done right, like any good brewer I know how I need to compensate a recipe to suit my system.


I'm exactly the same as you daemon, almost word for word. I will get a plate chiller soon and will use it when a fermenter is spare (on those rare occasions, that is). However the majority of my brews will continue to be no chill for the very reasons daemon states above. 

bah


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## Cocko

I no chill because its Rad.

Thus my beer is Rad.

Making me way Rad.


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## benno1973

I use a counterflow chiller, however I can definitely see the advantages of NC for pitching at a later date, when you've got time to clean and sanitise your fermenter.

That aside, I also don't get the chill speeds that you do Dr K. I have an immersion chiller - while I didn't make it, I estimate the length to be around 9m. It takes a lot longer to chill 20L down to 27C. I whirlpool, not continuously, but at stages during the chill, and it takes closer to 35-40 minutes. Maybe I need to ramp the flow up through the chiller? Sounds like I'm not doing something right.


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## Muscovy_333

I'm no-chill but not for much longer. 
No amount of compensation is knocking of those darn DMS precursors! Not even a mega boil. 

The only reason i'm no-chilling is because i'm working my way down my ghetto build list and guess whats next on the build...

Off TOPIC>>>>For the record I have my first keg carbing on my ghetto $20 fire extinguisher (which was full!) as we speak. Its a monumental man cave moment for me. 
Congratulations self.


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## IainMcLean

I have a cube with an immersion chiller in it and pinstriping on the outside. 
It's way rad. 
It has blue LEDs underneath it too...

My beer doesn't give me botulism - the kebabs I keep ordering after drinking my beer do....


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## Ian Gommers

Come on fellas, there is no such thing as "No chill". We all chill, it's just the time frame that differs. I think we should all be either "Fast Chillers" or "Slow Chillers". Me, I'm a "Fast Chiller"!


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## pk.sax

This thread is chilling me!


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## Kai

dr K said:


> Those who know me also know that when it comes to No-Chill I am at best not an advocate.
> I have never, and probably never will, disparage the "Fresh Wort Kits" that are available from many suppliers, they are streets ahead of standard kit brews but in the end thats what they are.
> I pose the question...what makes no chill fly?
> ## It causes no more reported cases of botulism that conventional chilling.
> ## It allows you to brew over two days rather than one
> ## It saves the cost of a chiller
> ## You can't tell the difference (purely subjective and should be not be here but passes due to sarcasm)
> ## It saves water
> ## Late hopping is difficult as the alpha acids continue to isomorise in the cube
> ## Aroma hopping presents even greater problems than late hopping.
> ## DMS forms
> ## It adds another path to infection
> ## It takes more work, more time, more water and more chemicals to clean a cube than an immersion chiller.



I'll bite, just because it's been a good few years since I've participated in one of these discussions. That and the whole 'no-chill' movement here is partially my fault.

## Yes it takes a day longer to commence fermentation, but the luxury of brewing at home is I'm not on a tight production schedule  I find it harder to keep the cold side on a good time schedule (I'll rack that tomorrow... I'll bottle that next week... etc.)
## Telling the difference, yes subjective but the difference between two different home breweries I would argue is far greater. Perhaps better expressed as "the difference is negligible when all other factors are taken into consideration", and does remain a relevant point albeit indeed subjective and prone to differences in methodolgy.
## It does save water, especially compared to an inefficient chiller using warm ambient temperature water. And I have seen plenty of that variety of chiller.
## I find late hopping with no chill very easy, though I also find all homebrewing software wildly inaccurate for calculating IBUs when used 'out of the box'.
## I find aroma hopping very easy too, with quite satisfying results.
## Never had DMS problems. Rarely brew pale lagers though, but I have done plenty of excellent pale beers. And I'm definitely not immune to DMS detection. 
## An immersion chiller adds another path to infection too, albeit not directly but through contamination from the outside environment as the kettle cools and draws in air. 
## It categorically does not take me more time or more water to clean a cube than it would to chill a batch of beer with a conventional heat exchanger. More work can be argued, but that work occurs during the 'downtime' of a brewday. Ask me if I care about actual water usage though...

I'll also add that I am in no way advocating here. If I had my druthers I'd have a good-sized plate HX and a pump to keep it reliably clean. I'd also like it if I actually had time to brew real beer at home, but that's another story.


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## bum

Hey, you. Yes, YOU!

Your methods offend me. I care not that you find them suitable to your requirements. Do my bidding!

If you want.


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## dr K

Kaiser Soze said:


> I use a counterflow chiller, however I can definitely see the advantages of NC for pitching at a later date, when you've got time to clean and sanitise your fermenter.
> 
> That aside, I also don't get the chill speeds that you do Dr K. I have an immersion chiller - while I didn't make it, I estimate the length to be around 9m. It takes a lot longer to chill 20L down to 27C. I whirlpool, not continuously, but at stages during the chill, and it takes closer to 35-40 minutes. Maybe I need to ramp the flow up through the chiller? Sounds like I'm not doing something right.



Kaiser..at last..a sensible reply !
The figures I used were from (or extrapolated from) the current Zymurgy not from my personal figures, though they seem fine to me..my current set up, 2 x pumps in parallel recirculating whirlpool immersion chiller gets my 50l from just sub boil to sub 35C in about 8 minutes in January in Canberra, after that the temp drop is not so good, none the less I fit inside the square.
Ramping the flow up..yes...read the article

K


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## Thefatdoghead

All my fermentors and kegs are full what am I gonna do?? NC! Who really gives a flying **** whether you do or don't no chill? oh yeah the person that started this thread.....anyway sometimes I do when it suits and sometimes I don't. Whatever
:icon_cheers:


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## Florian

dr K said:


> The graphs and my experience show that you can cool 5 USGal (18ish litres) of boiling wort to 27C
> [...]
> Your wort is now ready to pitch, no more waiting till the next day



You pitch at 27 degrees?


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## proudscum

## An immersion chiller adds another path to infection too, albeit not directly but through contamination from the outside environment as the kettle cools and draws in air. 

after 16 years of using this method i would say that not one infection has been due to the chiller.dirty spot on a fermenter or bottle an sometimes the ingredient but not the chiller and the old brewery lived in a dirt floor garage,


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## benno1973

dr K said:


> The figures I used were from (or extrapolated from) the current Zymurgy not from my personal figures, though they seem fine to me..my current set up, 2 x pumps in parallel recirculating whirlpool immersion chiller gets my 50l from just sub boil to sub 35C in about 8 minutes in January in Canberra, after that the temp drop is not so good, none the less I fit inside the square.



The plan is to add a whirlpool pump into the system, hopefully that will help. I also have a prechiller which I'm toying with to drop the temp of the water heading into the CF chiller, so that may also speed up the process.

Thanks for the heads up - I'll read the article.


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## Cocko

dr K said:


> I whirlpool with a pump and here is what it looks like Break and Trub



I whirlpool with a spoon and no chill....


... its rad!









EDIT: 120L pot


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## Muscovy_333

I guess when you dump a chiller into freshly boiled wort its going to sanitise rather quickly. 
Maybe if you chiller is good enough a couple of spore formers like botilinum will get through but it just adds to the flavour eh..


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## Ian Gommers

I like pina colada's and long walks on the beach. Not one infection yet.


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## Kai

proudscum said:


> ## An immersion chiller adds another path to infection too, albeit not directly but through contamination from the outside environment as the kettle cools and draws in air.
> 
> after 16 years of using this method i would say that not one infection has been due to the chiller.dirty spot on a fermenter or bottle an sometimes the ingredient but not the chiller and the old brewery lived in a dirt floor garage,



Yep. I'm sure the vast majority of immersion chillers have the same experience.

What I was getting at is the tiny probability of an infection occurring. After all, it comes down to the statistical likelihood of any invasive microorganisms being present in your environment, of contaminating your wort, and of being there in sufficient numbers to grow enough to produce a detectable infection. The chance of that is indeed small.

That risk is statistically there though, say perhaps you have a tree in the yard with some esoteric yeast infection, or your neighbour is a diehard lambic brewer.

I had no intention of denigrating immersion chilling, just pointing out that, like a cube, it is indeed another potential point of infection.


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## benno1973

Kai said:


> That risk is statistically there though, say perhaps you have a tree in the yard with some esoteric yeast infection, or your neighbour is a diehard lambic brewer.



Yep, that's always been a worry for me. My wort sits, esentially uncovered (as there's a big ass chiller hanging out of it and the lid only partially fits on) while it cools for 30-40 mins. Recently we've planted a whole bunch of new fruit trees, including grapes in a trellis close by, and I'm definitely going to be paranoid when the fruit comes on! (Hence the desirre to get my chiller time down)


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## Nick JD

I don't even no-chill.


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## Cocko

Nick JD said:


> I don't even no-chill.



Rad.


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## Deebo

I don't own a chiller but will most likely get one some day. (First want to get a water filter of some description)
Not really hurrying because I like the convenience of splitting up the brew day to ferment when I have a free spot in the fridge or free time.


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## Nick JD

Cocko said:


> Rad.



Super vert rad.


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## Cocko

Nick JD said:


> Super vert rad.



Edging on gnarly.


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## dr K

Florian said:


> You pitch at 27 degrees?


No
But I find it difficult to cool below that temp with mains water (be it immerision, plate or counterflow).
For my purposes I find that a direct pour from the kettle into a clean stainless steel stock pot, thence via a funnel to my SS fermentor (s) provides both excellent aeration and cooling to yeast happy temps ..sorry OT


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## Nick JD

dr K said:


> For my purposes I find that a direct pour from the kettle into a clean stainless steel stock pot, thence via a funnel to my SS fermentor (s) provides both excellent aeration and cooling to yeast happy temps ..sorry OT



Bullshit. You pitch at 27.


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## IainMcLean

Kai said:


> That risk is statistically there though, say perhaps you have a tree in the yard with some esoteric yeast infection, or your neighbour is a diehard lambic brewer.



Stop the world - I want to get off!

What are you doing to that poor tree to give it a yeast infection, esoteric or otherwise.... You'll have to be careful - Canesten is antifungal and if you get any in your super-duper-chilled wort you'll kill the yeasties.

Better leave the tree alone really... let it heal.


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## Kai

Kaiser Soze said:


> Yep, that's always been a worry for me. My wort sits, esentially uncovered (as there's a big ass chiller hanging out of it and the lid only partially fits on) while it cools for 30-40 mins. Recently we've planted a whole bunch of new fruit trees, including grapes in a trellis close by, and I'm definitely going to be paranoid when the fruit comes on! (Hence the desirre to get my chiller time down)



Yeah, this is exactly what I meant, and expressed in a better fashion.

For argument's sake, since I am effectively comparing risk of infection from a cube versus an immersion chiller, I'm going to waffle on a bit more as I only do when I'm tired but don't wanna go to bed (waaah).

There is definitely a risk of infection from a cube, as there is from an immersion chiller. What I like about the risk from a cube is that it is more in my control. I control which cube I use (is it new, dirty, scratched, etc.). I control how well I clean the cube and associated hoses & fittings. I also control where I choose to expose the wort in the cube to the open air, which is the biggest risk point assuming my cleaning has been sufficiently fastidious. My choice of brewing location is more limited, as it would be for most people, and would typically be outside on the verandah, or in the garage or shed if you're lucky enough to have one or the other to brew in. That means immersion chilling is relatively more exposed (due to limited choice of location, and also due to the longer time period when wort temperature is in the 'danger zone' for infection) and the there is a greater level of risk that is beyond the brewer's control.

Need to stress again that I am only debating fine points because I don't wanna go to bed (waaah). Just like the subjective argument that there is no difference in flavour profile between cube and a 'real chiller', the risks of infection are something that is going to vary hugely between brewers and methods and environments and so on. I think what I'm trying to say there is it's a tiny point compared to the whole picture.

Splitting hairs, yeah that's it. It's splitting hairs.


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## Florian

dr K said:


> No
> But I find it difficult to cool below that temp with mains water (be it immerision, plate or counterflow).
> For my purposes I find that a direct pour from the kettle into a clean stainless steel stock pot, thence via a funnel to my SS fermentor (s) provides both excellent aeration and cooling to yeast happy temps ..sorry OT



I don't understand. How does your wort get from 27 to say 20 (I won't even mention 9 degrees for lagers) by 'direct pouring' into a stock pot and then funneling to a fermenter?

Unless you live on either north or south pole I really can't see that happening.


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## Kai

Yippie Ki Yay said:


> Stop the world - I want to get off!
> 
> What are you doing to that poor tree to give it a yeast infection, esoteric or otherwise.... You'll have to be careful - Canesten is antifungal and if you get any in your super-duper-chilled wort you'll kill the yeasties.
> 
> Better leave the tree alone really... let it heal.



I like trees, gotta problem with that? 

What I do in my yard with my flora is my business, not yours.


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## IainMcLean

Kai said:


> I like trees, gotta problem with that?
> 
> What I do in my yard with my flora is my business, not yours.



Trees have feelings too... even if she has a name like Flora you can't just treat her like a lump of wood...


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## manticle

dr K said:


> Kaiser..at last..a sensible reply !
> 
> 
> K



Did you read Kai's post where he addressed every point you made with a counterpoint?

To add -

#no chill enables me to make starters using exactly the same wort I'm fermenting.
#No chill enables me to use the yeast I want if my starter doesn't fire rather than needing to compensate because I have to pitch within a short timeframe.
#No chill saves water. You mentioned it but I think dismissively and for a lot of people in this country, it's actually a very important issue.

As for DMS - since you've never actually no-chilled and thousands of people have and report no DMS issues, how can you claim, with any justification, that it is a common issue (common enough that it's worth mentioning )?


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## felten

this thread is stupid and i feel stupid for having read it


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## katzke

dr K said:


> Kaiser..at last..a sensible reply !
> The figures I used were from (or extrapolated from) the current Zymurgy not from my personal figures, though they seem fine to me..my current set up, 2 x pumps in parallel recirculating whirlpool immersion chiller gets my 50l from just sub boil to sub 35C in about 8 minutes in January in Canberra, after that the temp drop is not so good, none the less I fit inside the square.
> Ramping the flow up..yes...read the article
> 
> K



So what do you do with the hot wort while you wait for it to get to pitching temp?


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## matho

I do both, I have a CFC that i made for about $100 when i first started AG brewing and a little bit later i got myself some cubes.

Personally I prefer my beers that I have used the CFC on, the hop flavors and aroma's are brighter, I know there are ways of getting that with no chill, which i should try sometime down the track to see. For me it is more convenient to use my CFC but if something unforeseen happens i can always no-chill, I'll use my CFC about 95% of the time, I like to be able to pitch my yeast at the end of the brewday and not have to come back to it.
I say try both if you can and find out what suits you the best, no chill has its place, after all how would you be able to have a big social brewday and have everyone take home some wort with out it, but chilling has it's pace too.

cheers matho


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## hellbent

I have neither a wort chiller or do I cube...... after ading the yeast in too early a couple of batches ago all I do now is to strain my finished wort into my fermenter, add 20 ltrs of water to it, put the top on then leave it in my fermenting fridge set at 18 until it comes down to 20 then add my yeast........ is there a problem doing it this way??? I'm a bit new to partials and take great interest in what you guys say but I can't see a problem this way.


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## benno1973

hellbent said:


> I have neither a wort chiller or do I cube...... after ading the yeast in too early a couple of batches ago all I do now is to strain my finished wort into my fermenter, add 20 ltrs of water to it, put the top on then leave it in my fermenting fridge set at 18 until it comes down to 20 then add my yeast........ is there a problem doing it this way??? I'm a bit new to partials and take great interest in what you guys say but I can't see a problem this way.



How long does it take to get to pitching temperature?

Chilling relies on a short amount of time between finishing the boil and pitching the yeast, which means that the yeast can colonise the wort before anything else.

NC relies on the temperature of the hot wort sterilising the cube to ensure that nothing colonises it before you pitch the yeast.

The problem with your method is that a fridge might be a slow way to cool down wort, and your lag time might be long enough to allow for infection. If it's less than, say, 8 hours you might be ok, but any longer I'd be looking at working out a way to cool it down quicker.


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## WarmBeer

I like my 3.5 hour brew days.
I like my cubes.

My time is precious to me, yours may not.


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## sponge

+1 for time factor and less water usage, especially when living in an apartment and dont have a water tank or garden to recycle/reuse the chilling water

the 10L or so used to clean a cube is totally worth it...

plus the convenience of being able to ferment whenever youre ready takes the cake



Sponge


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## matho

There might be a correlation between those who like to chill and tap water temps, up in the blue mountains where i live, in summer the tap water temp is about 20 - 22 deg and in winter it gets down to about 10 deg. With my CFC i can get to about 4 deg of the tap water temp at a chill rate of 24l in 15min, so in winter i can get to ale temps straight away and lager temps is just a couple of hours in the fridge, in summer i mainly do ales which agains is just a couple of hours in the fridge. I know that if i had to start [email protected]%king around with pre chilling then no chill would look more attractive

cheers


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## yardy

matho said:


> I do both, I have a CFC that i made for about $100 when i first started AG brewing and a little bit later i got myself some cubes.
> 
> Personally I prefer my beers that I have used the CFC on, the hop flavors and aroma's are brighter, I know there are ways of getting that with no chill, which i should try sometime down the track to see. For me it is more convenient to use my CFC but if something unforeseen happens i can always no-chill, I'll use my CFC about 95% of the time, I like to be able to pitch my yeast at the end of the brewday and not have to come back to it.
> I say try both if you can and find out what suits you the best, no chill has its place, after all how would you be able to have a big social brewday and have everyone take home some wort with out it, but chilling has it's pace too.
> 
> cheers matho



same here, but if i forget to make the ice for the pre-chiller then it's _slow no chill in a cube_ because the temp of the bore water is pretty warm.

cfc bling is blingy though.. :icon_cheers:


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## matho

mate I don't know which i like to look at more, your avitar or that beautiful CFC you have


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## yardy

what avatar ?

i didn't leave the webcam on again did i ?


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## QldKev

matho said:


> mate I don't know which i like to look at more, your avitar or that beautiful CFC you have



should see his man boobs :icon_chickcheers:


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## Batz

yardy said:


> same here, but if i forget to make the ice for the pre-chiller then it's _slow no chill in a cube_ because the temp of the bore water is pretty warm.
> 
> cfc bling is blingy though.. :icon_cheers:





Or yea !

One of those chillers hey?


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## raven19

manticle said:


> ...To add -
> 
> #no chill enables me to make starters using exactly the same wort I'm fermenting.
> #No chill enables me to use the yeast I want if my starter doesn't fire rather than needing to compensate because I have to pitch within a short timeframe.
> #No chill saves water. You mentioned it but I think dismissively and for a lot of people in this country, it's actually a very important issue.
> 
> As for DMS - since you've never actually no-chilled and thousands of people have and report no DMS issues, how can you claim, with any justification, that it is a common issue (common enough that it's worth mentioning )?



+1 fella. fwiw I will often crank out 2+ brews in a day, then ferment at my liesure, when my starters are ready to pitch, etc, and when my fridges are available.

I rarely use my plate chiller.


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## QldKev

Another no-chiller here. It may not be the perfect world for the beer itself, but it allows me to brew a 100L batch, but only ferment 2 x 25L at a time. And as a bonus the 2 fermentors are rarely full of the same beer, rather than being hit with 100L of 1 style of beer.

QldKev


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## zebba

External: 860Wx890Hx550D
Internal: 730Wx730Hx410D
Hump: 180Wx170H

4 corneys on the floor. Bottle and 1 keg on the hump, with sleeve.

These measurements are not exact. give a +/- 10mm to most of them. My tape measure sucks, and I've never been one for accurate measurements at the best of times.

This is the H215X


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## Cortez The Killer

I wish Darren was here...

I no chill, I have all the bits and bobs to build an immersion chiller and will probably get around to it this year

It's appreciable that certain styles benefit greatly from chilling more so than others

No chilling for me is a convenience thing with respect to timing of fermentation and building up a bunch of FWK to ferment 

Cheers


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## DUANNE

another no chill thread. wow. as far as i can see the only poeple who like to bag out on no chill are those that have never tried the method. the text books say this that or the other and so on. i say get your head out of a text book and try it for yourself and all the bullshit really doesnt pan out. i brew pale rice lagers all the time and no signof dms yet except for the aroma coming out of the kettle in the first ten minutes of the boil. maybe im no chilling wrong,or im so affected by botulism i just cant smell or taste dms any more. i mean with the absolute lack of hop flavour and aroma it must really stand out if its there right?


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## Paul H

yardy said:


> what avatar ?
> 
> i didn't leave the webcam on again did i ?



+1 for webcam :beerbang: 

:icon_cheers: 

Paul


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## A3k

QldKev said:


> Another no-chiller here. It may not be the perfect world for the beer itself, but it allows me to brew a 100L batch, but only ferment 2 x 25L at a time. And as a bonus the 2 fermentors are rarely full of the same beer, rather than being hit with 100L of 1 style of beer.
> 
> QldKev



Im a no-chiller.

I have bugger all time at the moment, and struggle to find 4 hours in a block to brew. No Chilling means I can brew in 3.5-4 hours, including cleanup. 

I tried chilling twice with an immersion heater I made. I threw both out due to infection. It was either exposure in the kettle as it cooled, poor connections in the copper elbows etc letting tap water into the beer, or a flavour I get from US05 which I now dont like (I get it massively with JS golden ale). Anyway, I got deterred by this, and dont use my immersion chiller any more.



Also, I do anywhere between 50lt to 80lt batches. As QldKev said, I love the advantage of making hop differences and yeast difference easily so I get several different beers out of the same wort. No reason you cant do this when chilling though, but youd have to be more organised. Ive made the beer for my engagement party. One keg has a really hoppy APA and another from the same batch is similar, but much more subdued hopwise.


----------



## WarmBeer

Zebba said:


> External: 860Wx890Hx550D
> Internal: 730Wx730Hx410D
> Hump: 180Wx170H
> 
> 4 corneys on the floor. Bottle and 1 keg on the hump, with sleeve.
> 
> These measurements are not exact. give a +/- 10mm to most of them. My tape measure sucks, and I've never been one for accurate measurements at the best of times.
> 
> This is the H215X


Uhh, dude, where's my thread?


----------



## sama

Groundhog day.


----------



## zebba

LOL. My head is filled with a codeine haze from tonsillitis, and a shiny haze from the celli taps that arrived yesterday.

Thanks mate.


----------



## Amber Fluid

Oh dear, I can't believe I just wasted 30 minnutes of tax payers money to read this whole thread at work and the best thing I got was to perve on Yardy's rig and avatar!!


----------



## Peteoz77

I brew double batches, and I use an immersion chiller. My brew day is complete and cleaned up in 4 hours
Just Saying.
I also use tank water and just run it back into the tank...




WarmBeer said:


> I like my 3.5 hour brew days.
> I like my cubes.
> 
> My time is precious to me, yours may not.


----------



## argon

I've been a long time No Chiller and love the convenience. I recently acquired a 30 plate chiller and have done a few doubles with it. The amount of water required to chill 40L down as low as i could get it even with whirlpool recircing (approx 25C with my prechilled SEQLD water) borders on criminal... luckily i capture it all and use it in the washing machine or around the brewery, but i still feel massive guilt running that much water out at once. 

The other few things that i don't like about chilling is;
- the amount of time it takes... typically over 30mins before i can get it to 25C then another hour in the fridge till pitching
- the extra stuffing around adjusting flow rates and monitoring temps
- ensuring that the fermentors are ready with yeast going and space in the fermenting fridge

I'll continue to use both methods as necessary.. .typically with anything that requires big late hopping to be rapidly chilled.

Also the stuff about increased DMS production in No Chilled beer is plain bullshit... the science doesn't even back these claims.


----------



## Phoney

sama said:


> Groundhog day.



You reckon!

An chill vs nochill thread pops up every 3 months on here.  

Move along people...





BEERHOG said:


> another no chill thread. wow. as far as i can see the only poeple who like to bag out on no chill are those that have never tried the method.



Meh, I no chilled for the first 2 years of brewing before I bought a chiller. I wouldnt go back to no chilling, for reasons already covered 10x in this thread, and 10x in the last thread, and the thread before that, etc.


----------



## Jazzafish

dr K said:


> Those who know me also know that when it comes to No-Chill I am at best not an advocate.
> I have never, and probably never will, disparage the "Fresh Wort Kits" that are available from many suppliers, they are streets ahead of standard kit brews but in the end thats what they are.
> I pose the question...what makes no chill fly?
> ## It causes no more reported cases of botulism that conventional chilling.
> ## It allows you to brew over two days rather than one
> ## It saves the cost of a chiller
> ## You can't tell the difference (purely subjective and should be not be here but passes due to sarcasm)
> ## It saves water
> ## Late hopping is difficult as the alpha acids continue to isomorise in the cube
> ## Aroma hopping presents even greater problems than late hopping.
> ## DMS forms
> ## It adds another path to infection
> ## It takes more work, more time, more water and more chemicals to clean a cube than an immersion chiller.
> 
> A small investment (not more than the cost of a couple of cubes) will produce (subjectively) better beer, certainly reduce the formation of DMS, increase late hop aroma (if thats what you want), get your IBU's closer to the recipe you follow and allow you to use your waste water on your garden (which means I guess it's not waste!).
> The current issue of Zymurgy (The Journal of the American Home Brewers Association) has a Geek article about wort chilling which you check out if you are a member.
> Nine (9) meters of 12.7mm OD copper coils will set you back about $45.
> The graphs and my experience show that you can cool 5 USGal (18ish litres) of boiling wort to 27C with this 9 meters (re-coiled to fit your kettle ) in about 18 minuteds and about half that if you whirlpool, or even just move the wort around constantly.
> I whirlpool with a pump and here is what it looks like Break and Trub
> 
> Your wort is now ready to pitch, no more waiting till the next day, no more cleaning the cube as well as the fermentor, your $45 immersion chiller is hosed off at the same time as your kettle, life is good and as you savour the fresh hop aroma of your Yes-Chill beer you wonder how to re-use those cubes and thank your personal diety that you are not a sheep.!!
> 
> K



Some interesting points... For the record I sometimes chill and sometimes no chill depending on what I'm trying to brew and how much time I have to achieve it. 

* botulism... not an issue in either method
* split day brewing... just a time thing, can be suitable or not suitable
* cost of a chiller is a fair point if you are starting up - no chill is somewhat a new method in home brewing
* Chilled beers are different to no chilled beers if brewing the same recipe. If you have the means, test it for yourself on a split/double batch. I notice the difference, mainly in mid to late hopped beers. There is a strong argument for teaking the recipe, but I struggle to adjust recipes to suit when no chilling hoppy beers. But the world of cube hopping is a fun one - not the same and I doubt reproducable when chilling.
* If you waste water chilling or no chilling, you are doing it wrong. I use the same amount brewing both methods.
* Late hopping is the only reason I still chill, aside from wanting to fast track the finished product/start fermenting due to being out of beer!
* Aroma hopping... I get most of this from dry hopping, but still a valid point
* DMS... Ive only had an issue with DMS when playing with shorter boil times, both chilled and no chilled
* Infections... if you get them you are doing it wrong! Both methods
* It takes more work, more time, more water and more chemicals to clean a cube than an immersion chiller... Sorry, don't believe this!

Fact of the matter is both methods have advantages, and I opt for the appropriate method to suit me. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Both give you fruit, but different fruit with different advantages.


----------



## Shed101

I may chill.
I may slow chill.
I may no chill.

So may you.

I don't care.
You don't care.

Glad we got that sorted.


----------



## Maxt

To add to the soup:

I use a Jamil style chiller. Cools to 20deg in about 20 mins. Water tank with pump used so no water wasted. I also no sparge as I have a 60L mash tun, that saves me some time. 

I don't really understand the comment about where all the time gets wasted chilling though? The coil goes in the kettle with 15m mins to go, so no cleaning time wasted, and the whole operation only takes 20 mins...anyhoo

The real issue that all of you have missed is that DrK is taking the piss. He doesn't chill either. He is a devoted BIAB, iso hop loving no chiller from waaay back. <_<


----------



## manticle

Maxt said:


> To add to the soup:
> 
> I use a Jamil style chiller. Cools to 20deg in about 20 mins. Water tank with pump used so no water wasted. I also no sparge as I have a 60L mash tun, that saves me some time.
> 
> I don't really understand the comment about where all the time gets wasted chilling though? The coil goes in the kettle with 15m mins to go, so no cleaning time wasted, and the whole operation only takes 20 mins...anyhoo
> 
> The real issue that all of you have missed is that DrK is taking the piss. He doesn't chill either. He is a devoted BIAB, iso hop loving no chiller from waaay back. <_<



People with water tanks should chill to their heart's content. If I ever get one, I will buy a plate chiller and use both methods, beer dependent. I have brewed both ways - NC suits my current set-up.

I figure drK is fishing rather than pisstaking and if that gives him pleasure then all power to him. He caught a few, some were undersized.

However the ensuing discussion may offer some valid points to new brewers who may not be aware of the eleven million discussions already in existence.


----------



## argon

Maxt said:


> I don't really understand the comment about where all the time gets wasted chilling though? The coil goes in the kettle with 15m mins to go, so no cleaning time wasted, and the whole operation only takes 20 mins...anyhoo



Ever done it with 29C ambient water?... i think it may take a bit longer.

Time it takes to chill means nothing if your not stating source water temp.

If i lived in Colorado and brewed in winter i'd be able to chill faster than that... but i don't.


----------



## Hippy

I no chill but my cubes have rounded edges. Is that ok?


----------



## stux

WarmBeer said:


> I like my 3.5 hour brew days.
> I like my cubes.
> 
> My time is precious to me, yours may not.



Being able to make the starter from the actual wort's kettle dregs is a bonus too.

Being able to have a cube ready for when a fermenter comes available... gold.


----------



## Diesel80

Stux said:


> Being able to make the starter from the actual wort's kettle dregs is a bonus too.
> 
> Being able to have a cube ready for when a fermenter comes available... gold.




Or using kettle dregs for a mini hop boil to get the aroma back that is supposedly lost with N/C, also gold.

Tried this on the 3rd AG i did, it has just hit the keg. Early indication is mini boil could be a winner, and may become standard for my future N/C as they hit the fermenter.

Cheers,
D80


----------



## Jazzafish

argon said:


> Ever done it with 29C ambient water?... i think it may take a bit longer.
> 
> Time it takes to chill means nothing if your not stating source water temp.
> 
> If i lived in Colorado and brewed in winter i'd be able to chill faster than that... but i don't.




Pretty valid point about hot tap water. To work with this I chill in 2 stages. First with the hot water out from the chiller is collected into my HLT if brewing a second beer or into a bucket for cleaning. After getting my cleaning water ready, the water coming out isn't as aggressively hot and I use it to fill a vessel maxed out with frozen 3 Litre milk bottles. The tap turns off and a pump recirculated the ice water through. Ales ready to pitch in ~20mins in ambient 30 - 40 degrees.


----------



## MarkBastard

Someone else's theory will never over ride my own knowledge gained through reality.


----------



## loikar

Mark^Bastard said:


> Someone else's theory will never over ride my own knowledge gained through reality.



Just wanted to draw attention to M^B's post above.

BF


----------



## komodo

44Gall drum $10
submersable pump $40
copper for immersion chiller $40ish
misc bits a pieces $20
cheap hose $10
total $120
being able to chill without wasting water - priceless

That said I do no chill also.
Both have pros and cons.


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## hellbent

Kaiser Soze said:


> How long does it take to get to pitching temperature?
> 
> Chilling relies on a short amount of time between finishing the boil and pitching the yeast, which means that the yeast can colonise the wort before anything else.
> 
> NC relies on the temperature of the hot wort sterilising the cube to ensure that nothing colonises it before you pitch the yeast.
> 
> The problem with your method is that a fridge might be a slow way to cool down wort, and your lag time might be long enough to allow for infection. If it's less than, say, 8 hours you might be ok, but any longer I'd be looking at working out a way to cool it down quicker.



I usually do it in the morning and add the yeast in late afternoon


----------



## Kai

Komodo said:


> 44Gall drum $10
> submersable pump $40
> copper for immersion chiller $40ish
> misc bits a pieces $20
> cheap hose $10
> total $120
> being able to chill without wasting water - priceless
> 
> That said I do no chill also.
> Both have pros and cons.



That is exactly how I once planned to set up my brewery, albeit with a counterflow chiller. Since then I've moved house four times, from one side of the country to the other, and my brewing system grows more rudimentary.


----------



## doon

I no chill but have the reoccurring problem of kittens jumping out of the cube when I go to pour into the fermenter. How do i fix this?


----------



## Kai

http://bonsaikitten.com/


----------



## benno1973

hellbent said:


> I usually do it in the morning and add the yeast in late afternoon



To be honest, assuming that morning is around 10am and late afternoon is around 5pm, then that's not so bad. If you're brewing good beer, then I can't argue with the results, so keep going at it. If you ever start questioning some of the flavours that come through, it might be time to look for a chiller or a cube.


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## drtomc

In the area of research that I work in this kind of thing comes up again and again. People (ok, including me) publish papers that run along these lines: I compared my favorite method against yours, and mine is better. I carefully tuned my method to show off how well it works, and I used yours in the most naive way. My method is better than yours. 

This kind of analysis usually overlooks the subtle trade offs between the two methods, which are frequently fine methods when used carefully for the right purpose. 

For the record, I NC at the moment, but will get a plate chiller eventually, at which time I expect to use both methods. 

T.


----------



## ledgenko

I think Chillin is all where it is at ... for all you fly mothers ... get out and chill ... 


But seriously ...

I use cubes and I did not vote for Aunty Julia


----------



## Knighty

Im more worried about the BPA's leaching out of the "foodsafe" cubes than the quality of the beer. BPA's are some bad jibbers...... but hey I brew with extract ATM so my kitchen sink is my chiller.


----------



## Nick JD

Knighty said:


> Im more worried about the BPA's leaching out of the "foodsafe" cubes than the quality of the beer.



I'd be more worried about the unjustified paranoia. There's no BPA in HDPE.


----------



## Thefatdoghead

In the latest BYO mag a guy asked a question about No-chill and Mr Wizard slammed the idea, I quote

"I suppose if I were brewing on a desert island and only had the No-chill method I would make do, but neither one of us is stranded on an island"

He also goes on about DMS and what it smells like and what causes it. What a load of shit! He could have talked about positives and negatives but no just brushed it off as inferior and it's kinda made me a tad angry. <_<


----------



## ekul

I was taught at school that australia is the biggest island, and 90% of it is desert. Maybe thats why its so popular here 


How do chillers have brewdays? Does everyone take their fermenters as well and leave as soon as the yeast is pitched? 

nochill may split the brewday into two separate brewdays, however one is 4hrs long and the other 2 or 3 are onle mminutes long.0


----------



## DoctorBob

Cairns water is 30 plus degrees at the moment, so no chill in cubes for my double batches is the way I go.

I have a plate heat exchanger, plus I have also pre chillied the cooling water with a 15m copper coil in a bucket of iced water but 2 bags of ice disappear very quickly and I still end up with 40L of wort at 35C, and use heaps of water.

My beer tastes good using cubes, and no DMS I can detect but I would rather chill if I could as I think it allows more control over hop bitterness development,....anyone got advice on how to chill effectively to 20C, with tap water over 30C

I have been thinking of throwing the cubes in the swimming pool, although that is like a warm bath at present.

DrB


----------



## pk.sax

Hey DrB

Kev (QldKev hintedon another thread, what he does is run the wort through the chiller once with normal tap water back into the kettle and then a second time when its cooled down considerably using chilled water (using a pre-chiller).
I might be imagining some of that but he put the idea in my head with that post and thats how I'd try it.


----------



## DoctorBob

practicalfool said:


> Hey DrB
> 
> Kev (QldKev hintedon another thread, what he does is run the wort through the chiller once with normal tap water back into the kettle and then a second time when its cooled down considerably using chilled water (using a pre-chiller).
> I might be imagining some of that but he put the idea in my head with that post and thats how I'd try it.




Thanks, makes sense, I was prechilling the incoming water to the chiller, then trying to use that to take wort from 90C to 20C, hence the ice in the bucket with the pre chill coil chilling the incoming tap water didn't last long. 

I have a three tier gravity system so not sure how I would get back to my kettle without buying a pump. Might have to stick to cubes.....


----------



## Thirsty Boy

skipped to the end, sorry.

K - if all your points were in fact true, your argument is sound. Trouble is, at least 3 or 4 of them are really quite debatable. YOU think they are just plain old truth... but other, smart, capable, successful, educated and knowledgable brewers disagree. So - you might be right... but its far from beyond debate. Introduce doubt to your assumptions and unfortunately your conclusions become just as doubtful.

You might be right - but then again, there's just as much reason to think you might not be. it so happens that I think you're wrong.

I own both a plate and an immersion chiller - i rarely find cause to use either.


----------



## ledgenko

Doc Beee... 


You nailed it already ... pool .. cubes ... chill ... noice .... its how u roll in the tropics .. kinda like Tang and Bacardi ... don't laugh .. it does rock your world when you give it a go ... everyone loves a bit of Bug juice every now and then ... but seriously ... the pool !!! try it .. what have u got to lose .. besides Cairns is such a lovely place to be shitters !! after spending 6 years living in Darwin .. Cairns is paradise !!! especially after living in Canberra for 3 years (DAMN !!) 

Matt


----------



## QldKev

Doctor Bob said:


> Cairns water is 30 plus degrees at the moment, so no chill in cubes for my double batches is the way I go.
> 
> I have a plate heat exchanger, plus I have also pre chillied the cooling water with a 15m copper coil in a bucket of iced water but 2 bags of ice disappear very quickly and I still end up with 40L of wort at 35C, and use heaps of water.
> 
> My beer tastes good using cubes, and no DMS I can detect but I would rather chill if I could as I think it allows more control over hop bitterness development,....anyone got advice on how to chill effectively to 20C, with tap water over 30C
> 
> I have been thinking of throwing the cubes in the swimming pool, although that is like a warm bath at present.
> 
> DrB




Chuck em in the pool, I call it slow-chill.  

Here is my setup http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=802440


----------



## dr K

Thirsty Boy said:


> skipped to the end, sorry.
> 
> K - if all your points were in fact true, your argument is sound. Trouble is, at least 3 or 4 of them are really quite debatable. YOU think they are just plain old truth... but other, smart, capable, successful, educated and knowledgable brewers disagree. So - you might be right... but its far from beyond debate. Introduce doubt to your assumptions and unfortunately your conclusions become just as doubtful.
> 
> You might be right - but then again, there's just as much reason to think you might not be. it so happens that I think you're wrong.
> 
> I own both a plate and an immersion chiller - i rarely find cause to use either.



Oh dear..
I know that some are debatable, If you don't no-chill.
My ## points are taken from the usual arguments put foward FOR no-chilling.
Lets look at them shall we (its been a long time), my italics

## It causes no more reported cases of botulism that conventional chilling. (_ only what II have read but it makes sense_
## It allows you to brew over two days rather than one _ Problem with this, well I do say allows, in that it gives a choice and this seems to be a big plus for no-chill_
## It saves the cost of a chiller _OK this IS debatable as you have to pay for cubes anyway, but I am taking the no-chill argument herei]__
## You can't tell the difference (purely subjective and should be not be here but passes due to sarcasmO)K mays its not or at best poor sarcasm, again subjective
## It saves water  I guess if you hose your cubes down it does not, but then its not no-chill
## Late hopping is difficult as the alpha acids continue to isomorise in the cube oooh real conjecture here, some report that their hops do not continue to isomerise, I guess its weird science and what happens in the lab may not happen at home
## Aroma hopping presents even greater problems than late hopping. see above
## DMS forms ...yes it does, whether or not enough forms that you can pick it, now the flavor threshold or indeed the flavor masking thats debatable but it occours, just like acetaldehyde does in fermentation.
## It adds another path to infection so if you don' clean your cubes properly it does not matter becasue the hot wort will sterilize them? If that is true then yes this is a shaky argument
## It takes more work, more time, more water and more chemicals to clean a cube than an immersion chiller. Now we finally strike an object of debate, though this has to be read in conjunction with above infection path. A quick hose down at the end of the day is all an immerion chiller needs as it will be plonked into the boil at least 20 minutes before the end of the boil and will have boiling acidic wort claening it and sanitising it, sans external chemicals btw, of course you could take your cube right after you pitch into a fermentor, your cube should should be sanitary, heaven help your fermenting beer if its not, give it a quick rinse and pour your cooling wort into it, and guess what, if the container was sanitary, your rinse water not contaminated and your transfer quick then time and temperature would combine and your cooling wort would be sound, with no external chemicals and no more water usage than hosing an immersion chiller, not somethng that I would advocate btw

What makes my OP, perhaps, interesting, is that did not slay, run down, demoniise, denigrate or even laugh at no-chill, I simply pointed out that there were TCO alternatives for the price of a couple of cubes, the suggestion being that you might want to finish your brew in a day, rather than wait for no real greater cost outlay. Yet many of the replies (including a recent one claiming that that guy from BYO Mr Wizard had no idea which probably prompted this reply) were from one eyed pirates with talking parrots on their shoulders, and that, I would suggest introduces far more more learned doubt from the chatterers into my assumptions than my OP. I've gone to look for Australia.

K_


----------



## manticle

To add to the no chill advantages, having left my parrot at daycare (but having already stated this)

-No chill allows the luxury of making a proper starter, using identical wort, which (according to what I've read is desirable for the yeast). IF my starter doesn't fire (and this happens to brewers about the place) I am afforded the extra time to get the right one purchased/started rather than needing to resort to pitching whatever else I have on hand.
-No chill when done properly can and will use less water. Bugger cleaning the chiller - it's the water you run through the chiller. IF you have a tank - no big deal. IF you don't (and many don't) then yes - big deal.

By the way - to clean a cube, you don't have to fill it. 2 Litres of boiling water and napisan is all that's needed for a standard cube to clean it (in my experience). Empty (yes on the garden/herbs whatever or use it to clean), a quick rinse with clean water (again, doesn't have to fill the cube and water is re-used) and a spray with starsan which removes the slime created by sodium percarb (easily in my experience). I can clean and sanitise a cube with less than 10 L of (re-usable) water. What's the minimum a chiller uses?

As for the infection thing - I know people suggest that hot wort is enough to sanitise but that doesn't mean no-chill requires you not to sanitise any other way. For the record I sanitise my cubes with starsan before filling. It's so simple, I don't know why anyone wouldn't. I also ferment straight in the cube so my infection risk is actually reduced due to no transferring. The debate about the negative effect of cold break is for another discussion.

If you can't pick the DMS then is it a concern? You say it forms but if you use malts that contain very little SMM to begin with (like most 2-row ale malts) and boil properly for 60-90 minutes, why would this even be a consideration?

Isomerisation/late hopping: Yes absolutely. I've done side by sides same wort, same yeast, same fermentation but one cube chilled and one no -chilled. My experiential results confirm what you suggest (ie there is a difference) BUT:

If you form your own recipes or use someone else's no chilled recipes etc you can work this stuff out pretty easily.I don't make adjustments because all my beers are designed by me and I no chill. It's not hard to get the hop flavour and aroma I want into a beer. I brew beer, at home, mainly for me and I no-chill. I design recipes for me, for home brewing, for my no chilling dingle dongle. Even Dr George Fix suggested it is the human palate which is the most important instrument when it comes to evaluating finished beer.

No chill is convenient for some, for various reasons. Chilling is likewise. A versus B debates are actually pretty uninteresting most of the time. Learning about as many methods/techniques there are and trying them out for yourself is what interests me about cooking, brewing, drawing, art conservation and handling (my job and training) and many other things. Why stagnate or fixate?

As for expense - a plastic jerrycan (which for me doubles as a fermenter) versus metres of copper? Really?


----------



## Thefatdoghead

dr K said:


> claiming that that guy from BYO Mr Wizard had no idea which probably prompted this reply



Mate, I was simply quoting not claiming what was said in the magazine and my opinion is that Mr wizard from BYO has some great answers and that this answer in particular was a narrow minded one. Never did I say that Mr Wizard had no idea I just thought his response to a question regarding NC was a narrow minded incorrect answer to the readers question.
Now if you'll Excuse me i'll have to go feed my parrot.
:icon_cheers:


----------



## drsmurto

manticle said:


> -No chill allows the luxury of making a proper starter, using identical wort, which (according to what I've read is desirable for the yeast). IF my starter doesn't fire (and this happens to brewers about the place) I am afforded the extra time to get the right one purchased/started rather than needing to resort to pitching whatever else I have on hand.



Not going to get involved in a no chill vs chill debate, what you do in the privacy of your own brewery is your choice.

But, I will correct any misnomers that may skew the debate and there are a few here.

I am a chiller. I don't brew until my yeast is ready so there is no last minute panicking and pitching of 'whatever i have on hand'.

If this happens in any brewery it's poor planning and has nothing to do with chill or no chill.

The idea of using identical wort is somewhat of a misnomer. I can brew the same brew over and over again. The first time i wont have any identical wort on hand to have been able to build up a starter with prior but from then on i can freeze part of the batch and use it in a starter for the following batch. Zwickel does this regularly, I don't as i tend to reuse the same yeast for a number of batches and either top crop if the strain is suitable or reuse yeastcake.

It's nit picking to some degree but then the whole debate of chill vs no chill is.


----------



## ForkBoy

manticle, how do you compensate for late hop additions in your recipes? This is one of the things that has turned me away lately, most brews ended up bitter with a lack of flavour/aroma - especially with the higher AA flavour hops. I was dropping the late additions in the cube. 

You say you ferment in your no chill cube - do you have a significant headspace in the cube when you rack it? It sounds like an interesting technique.


----------



## MHB

Been following this thread with interest!
No-Chill Works, undoubtedly and undeniably, the questions that some have about the process are also valid.
After several years as a no-chiller Im going back to a counter flow chiller because I think it will make an improvement to my beers, particularly the paler larger, that wont stop me no-chilling some beers at need.
One of my favourite adages is everything affects the beer, Im not saying better or worse just that every choice we as brewers make ends up in the glass, split a batch no-chill half crash chill the other, ferment side by side with the same yeast and you will get two different beers.

When it comes to hops and no-chill, well for me the jury is still out on that to some extent.
The mechanisms involved in isomerisation have been well studied and explained; Isomerisation is and will continue happen after the wort is cubed; at a well understood rate as will the degradation of Iso-Alpha Acids. What is less well documented is what happens to Taste and Aroma hop additions in a hot closed container; personally I would be very reluctant to add hops to a cube until I understand whats happening to them a lot better than I do now but I will say the grassiest beer I ever tasted was Cube-Hoped.

Both chilling and no offer advantages and drawbacks and if we want to make better beer its up to us as brewers to explore the possibilities and decide which works best for us, no guarantee that the process I favour will be the best one for you or any other brewer. But keep an open mind, judge your and other brewers beers critically, ask about their processes, look for trends, experiment, test, get outside opinions from people that know beer and who will tell you the truth.
One day I will brew a perfect pilsner, I dont think it will be a No-Chill beer.
Mark


----------



## rich_lamb

Well, I started out using a chiller, then convinced myself I needed to go no-chill for a couple of years (mainly because of the drought - remember that?), and recently went back to chilling as now I have a tank. So FWIW I have practical experience of both, and being pretty keen on competition I have my beers frequently and rigorously assessed.

_Chilling produces better beer. _

Whoa, flame on! There, I said it.
Dont care about all that convenience stuff; at the end of the day you do about the same work to make a batch of beer. I understand the theory of DMS formation but I never tasted it in my no-chilled beers or any other (competition placed) beers made by no-chill brewers - a bit of a mystery, or we dont really know the mechanisms for DMS?

I can only describe the quality of no-chilled beers as being "muddier" - less distinct. Hopping is definitely a problem, and the first beers I made (no-chill) were horribly bitter. What a lot of no-chill advocates don't tell you is how they go about avoiding hop residue going in the cube, and brewer to brewer this makes a world of difference.
Anybody who says they do X and "their beers are fine" is wasting their breath - what does _fine_ mean? How much better could their beers potentially be? How do they stand at competition?


----------



## black_labb

Nice to see some people in here experienced with both NC and chilling. 

For me the convenience is great. I can brew and keep the cubes for when I am ready to ferment them. I can brew when my fermentors are all tied up with other things only to pitch the yeast a few weeks later. I can do double batches with somewhat different beers within them by cube hopping differently and using a different yeast. 

NC effects the beer in some ways just like chilling it does, but just like other parts of your brewery you design recipes for your equipment. 

While I think my beers turn out well I have not entered them in any comps. I am looking forward to entering them in a few this year though so that will change.


----------



## manticle

DrSmurto said:


> Not going to get involved in a no chill vs chill debate, what you do in the privacy of your own brewery is your choice.
> 
> But, I will correct any misnomers that may skew the debate and there are a few here.
> 
> I am a chiller. I don't brew until my yeast is ready so there is no last minute panicking and pitching of 'whatever i have on hand'.
> 
> If this happens in any brewery it's poor planning and has nothing to do with chill or no chill.
> 
> The idea of using identical wort is somewhat of a misnomer. I can brew the same brew over and over again. The first time i wont have any identical wort on hand to have been able to build up a starter with prior but from then on i can freeze part of the batch and use it in a starter for the following batch. Zwickel does this regularly, I don't as i tend to reuse the same yeast for a number of batches and either top crop if the strain is suitable or reuse yeastcake.
> 
> It's nit picking to some degree but then the whole debate of chill vs no chill is.



I'm not really interested in a vs debate either as I hope I've made clear (by previously stating exactly that). I'm, like you, hoping to address some fallacies (not misnomers - you can be anal about science, I'll be anal about language) inherent in the OP and subsequent follow up.

I'm not suggesting that every chiller is frantically scrambling around trying to coincide their starter with their brewday. Of course you can hold off brewing, brew and freeze, etc etc. I'm merely pointing out the convenience of no chill from my perspective in that regard. I hardly ever brew the same thing twice too so, at least for me, no chill gives me the ability to ferment at will with starters made from the same wort. It's not the only way. For me to suggest it is would be to buy into the vs thing in which case I may as well stick a potato in my left nostril. I'm interested in neither (nose potatoes and versus debates) and I'm interested in both (Chilling and no-chilling).

Probably clear as mud but I can always try and clarify tomorrow if anyone cares.

Simply if I plan a starter and I plan a brewday and the starter doesn't work out so well, I have an extra option that I may not otherwise have. If I chilled all the time I could probably work it out but I don't currently need to. 

@forkboy: I don't really. I just design recipes around a process that works for me. If I brew a beer that doesn't rely on loads of hops (single addition or simple bittering/flavouring/aroma additions), then I just do that - 60 min, 20 min and 0 min. 0 min is added at whirlpool which is usually 20 minutes after flameout. If it's a super hoppy beer, I usually burst the majority of hops from about 30 mins on with additions every 5 mins and then dry hop. I mentioned a side by side I tried using a plate chiller and a no chill (same wort, same brew, split). Definitely a difference - only an idiot would pretend there wasn't but as always it comes down to preference. Strangely, several other brewers, at different times, blind tasting and including at my brew club, picked the no chill as having better aroma. The NC was definitely more bitter but since the recipe was always NC, I found the chilled one a bit out of balance (has a lot of munich and crystal) so would change the malt bill to compensate if chilling. Hop flavour was definitely more distinct in the chilled version. 

As for headspace in the cube: I fill to about 2 L short of the top, squeeze the air out when filling the cube as per the recommended NC method. When ready to pitch, I undo the cap to let the air back in, redo, shake to aerate then undo, add yeast, retighten the lid so it's just short of being tight. This is enough. Occasionally I get a tiny bit of krausen leaking out the top which is easily cleaned and sanitised. It just isn't a problem. I've filled cubes to the very top before and still had no major issues (some krausen leakage, clean and spray with starsan, move on). Krausen explosions happen with fermenters all the time. In a cube they seem slightly more restrained and just as easily dealt with.

@Bitter and twisted: I haven't entered loads of beer in comps but last year saw a 3rd place at worthogs pale mania, 2 x 1st places at Vicbrew (as well as a 4th and 8th and a 9th with ~30 entries per category) and a 4th and 11th at the nats with beers made no chilled, fermented with hop debris in the no chill cubes on top of the cold break and fermented with no fermenting fridge (water baths etc).

The Vicbrew 4th was a hoppy APA.

Yes I may have done better if I changed all that to chilled, no cold break, ferment fridge. Who knows?. I also beat many who chilled, transferred and used an STC1000 and generally, I think, did OK. I enjoyed drinking my own beers and some other people (brewers and non brewers, BJCP judges and non BJCP judges) did too. Good enough for me. Happy to suggest my beer is fine on that basis.

No chill works. It suits some people. Chilling works. It suits some people. If your beer is too bitter when chilling OR no chilling then change the hop additions in the recipe. Not hard.

Should add that I respect your experience having tried both methods and am simply relating mine. I am pro multiple techniques in all areas of brewing. HERMS, BIAB, NC, Plate, immersion - whatever. Different ways to make beer - that's what makes it exciting.

If I were to recommend a slightly more complicated/time consuming process that I find makes a difference (in my experience again) I would put step mashing, sepecially stepped sacch rests as being worthy of pursuit. Others may differ.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Bitter & Twisted said:


> Well, I started out using a chiller, then convinced myself I needed to go no-chill for a couple of years (mainly because of the drought - remember that?), and recently went back to chilling as now I have a tank. So FWIW I have practical experience of both, and being pretty keen on competition I have my beers frequently and rigorously assessed.
> 
> _Chilling produces better beer. _
> 
> Whoa, flame on! There, I said it.
> Dont care about all that convenience stuff; at the end of the day you do about the same work to make a batch of beer. I understand the theory of DMS formation but I never tasted it in my no-chilled beers or any other (competition placed) beers made by no-chill brewers - a bit of a mystery, or we dont really know the mechanisms for DMS?
> 
> I can only describe the quality of no-chilled beers as being "muddier" - less distinct. Hopping is definitely a problem, and the first beers I made (no-chill) were horribly bitter. What a lot of no-chill advocates don't tell you is how they go about avoiding hop residue going in the cube, and brewer to brewer this makes a world of difference.
> Anybody who says they do X and "their beers are fine" is wasting their breath - what does _fine_ mean? How much better could their beers potentially be? How do they stand at competition?



I no chill and my beers are fine...

They are frequently tasted by experienced, trained tasters for whom its a professional skill and no fault trends are present and they frequently enough place at state and national level HB comps to keep me happy and make sure the trophy shelf requires an occasion dust. I've won more stuff for no-chill than chill beers, but I'd expect that because I brew more no-chill beers. Sure, way less than all my beers are great, but thats equally true of both methods.

So - I'm perfecly happy to accept "I think my beer is better when I chill" I'm not happy to accept that chilling as an absolute rule produces better beer. It doesn't in my brewery. Perhaps the problem with other no-chillers is that they simply dont do it properly? Perhaps _my_ problem is that I dont chill properly and if I did I _would_ notice a quality improvement?

You talk about avoiding hop residue, and its been mentioned a few times that hopping and bitterness are "problems" - but they aren't... Things just work differently in No-Chill than they do when you chill. So big whoopsie?? Just like any other part of brewing, you have to do it properly, and properly for no-chill means different things than it means if you chill. Its different if you immersion chill vs if you plate chill. Learn the correct skills, apply them properly and it works. Get lazy, take shortcuts, make too many compromises... it doesnt' work so well.

I'm perfectly happy to say that there might be certain things you want from a beer that you cant get from no-chill. Maybe the perfect pilsner cant be brewed NC, who knows? But as a technique its not particularly more limited than others.. For example - I just brewed an APA and I particularly wanted the aroma profile you get from using a hop-back. Tough titty for me if I want to no-chill it, can't hop back with no-chill! Better *Throw Away my Cubes* & bust out the immersion chiller then... Oh wait, you cant use a hop back if you immersion chill either... damn. *Throw out all those copper coils* - they have limitations!. And I've seen plenty of stuff about not being able to late kettle hop "properly" if you use a CF or plate chiller because instead of cooling down the whole wort body, it only cools down the stuff thats passed through the chiller while the rest remains hot. So now we have to *Throw away our Plate Chillers *too?? Do all eski brewers have to throw out their mash tuns because they cant be directly fired? Will someone who cant do a decoction on their system ever brew the perfect pilsner? Is RIMS the work of Satan whilst angels cry tears of joy over beers from a HERMS? Guess what - different things work differently, you have to use them differently and they give different result. Just like No-Chill if you compare it to (which version is it we are talking about anyway?) chilling.

Different isn't necessarily better or worse, it just means you have to understand the nature of the difference and work with it.

For me - I'll be keeping my cubes thanks very much. I dont seem to experience the "problems" that are somehow supposed to accompany the technique and well... I no-chill and my beers are indeed fine.


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## mje1980

I chilled for 4 or so years, and i've now been chilling for a good 3 years i guess. When i transitioned, i found i didn't need to make IBU calc changes. Lately i have realised that my beers being more hoppy than bitter, dont really need adjusting for my tastes. If i brewed more bitter than hoppy, i'd probably have to adjust calc's. I have done a few 10 min IPA's without adjusting calcs, and love the results. 

I think both techniques are valid. Im also a 3V brewer, and think BIAB is a valid technique. If it works for you, then it works!!


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## Batz

I find it interesting how a lot of brewers who are so against NC, chill their beer with a chiller of some sort and don't quite reach pitching temperatures. Then guess what ? They put the fermenter in a fridge and pitch the next morning, much like no chill if you ask me.

Batz


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## QldKev

Batz said:


> I find it interesting how a lot of brewers who are so against NC, chill their beer with a chiller of some sort and don't quite reach pitching temperatures. Then guess what ? They put the fermenter in a fridge and pitch the next morning, much like no chill if you ask me.
> 
> Batz



shhh! don't speak logic, this is AHB! :drinks:


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## MarkBastard

Batz said:


> I find it interesting how a lot of brewers who are so against NC, chill their beer with a chiller of some sort and don't quite reach pitching temperatures. Then guess what ? They put the fermenter in a fridge and pitch the next morning, much like no chill if you ask me.
> 
> Batz



It's a good point, because some people here will talk strongly and try to sound like an authority on a topic but make really basic assumptions about the advice they're giving to someone.

For example someone from Tasmania telling someone from Darwin that chilling doesn't use up much water.

Or when they only tell half the truth, like over selling their method by leaving out important points like having to use pre-chillers, or pitching yeast higher than normal, or like you said putting the fermenter in the fridge overnight (LOL).

Or when they exaggerate prices or gear required.

Happens all the time here and it's truly pathetic.


----------



## Ironsides

I can only brew small batches, and do high gravity boils, so i find that a water bath works pretty well to get the temp low enough to stop IBU's being absorbed. I have also added boiled, then cooled or frozen water to the boiling wort. this drops the temp from boiling to 40, very very quickly. Ussualy the combiunation of water bath and cold water added gets me to pitching temp in an hour so.

Works for me anyway.


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## beerbrewer76543

After 6 pages people are still on topic??? My my has AHB grown up or something???


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## kieran

My 2c.

Both can produce nice beer. I believe, from what NC people here are saying, is that you can alter the brew ingredients and schedule to give you a final product that is perfectly drinkable, tasty, and prize-worthy. However there are likely limitations to this process. Perhaps DMS could be a problem but any knockers on that front (I think) don't understand that DMS can easily be alleviated by having a strong vigorous boil and allowing evaporation to do the work (I lose 6L/hr with 4800W working over a 26L boil) -- of course, you may need to be able to adjust your hop additions to account for any changes in alpha-isomerisation rate (if your boils aren't normally as vigorous).

One thing you wont get around is higher levels of non-precipitated protein -- I don't know how significant that is without actually doing a side by side comparison. I'm doing a brew tomorrow, so perhaps I'll ween off a litre and let that "no chill", and I'll do a protein prep and do a proper quantitative comparison using a Bradford assay or something. Assuming there inherently is more protein, I think it could be said that bigger body beers, hoppy bitter Ales, IPAs and Stouts would see little effect from an increased protein content from a no-chill. However, more carefully balanced beers would require a significant amount of work to get them "right". However, the average general home brewhouse, I think is unable to make such consistent minor, well balanced, modifications to hit the nail on the head consistently for those beers. I would think that there is just too much variability and inconsistency.

FWIW
I use a plate chiller because I can use a 20,000L in-ground concrete rainwater tank as my water source. What goes through the plate chiller, ends up back in the water tank. Nil water usage. I whirlpool before chilling to "clear" the wort of any precipitated protein from the Koppafloc additions. Once I'm chilling, I continue to whirlpool (helps dump trub back into the kettle) until I hit pitching temp, then the wort goes into the fermenter. A benefit of living in Melbourne is the cool ground temps, so my heat exchanger water is cold coming in (even in summer). Love it.


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## [email protected]

kieran said:


> One thing you wont get around is higher levels of non-precipitated protein -- I don't know how significant that is without actually doing a side by side comparison. I'm doing a brew tomorrow, so perhaps I'll ween off a litre and let that "no chill", and I'll do a protein prep and do a proper quantitative comparison using a Bradford assay or something. Assuming there inherently is more protein, I think it could be said that bigger body beers, hoppy bitter Ales, IPAs and Stouts would see little effect from an increased protein content from a no-chill. However, more carefully balanced beers would require a significant amount of work to get them "right". However, the average general home brewhouse, I think is unable to make such consistent minor, well balanced, modifications to hit the nail on the head consistently for those beers. I would think that there is just too much variability and inconsistency.



I am not quite sure i understand what you are saying here? 

So is your theory - chilling quickly leaves less cold break proteins in the wort? 

The same wort drained from the kettle , some chilled, some no chilled, wouldn't no chill have less break in it?
Especially if it has weeks to sit around letting gravity drop more break out? edit: thats assuming you rack the clear wort into the fermenter. 

When quick chilling through a plate chiller straight into fermenter, does that not include a lot of cold break in it as well?

Genuine questions


----------



## kieran

Beer4U said:


> I am not quite sure i understand what you are saying here?
> 
> So is your theory - chilling quickly leaves less cold break proteins in the wort?



Yes, less protein in solution.



Beer4U said:


> The same wort drained from the kettle , some chilled, some no chilled, wouldn't no chill have less break in it?



Yes, less precipitated cold break proteins. But more in solution.



Beer4U said:


> Especially if it has weeks to sit around letting gravity drop more break out? edit: thats assuming you rack the clear wort into the fermenter.



Gravity in of itself, will not precipitate proteins (atleast, gravity that's available to the home brewer -- if you have a centrifuge that might be another story). So more protein will stay in solution, so even if you rack the "clear" wort into the fermenter, it'll carry over into the fermenter in the solution.



Beer4U said:


> When quick chilling through a plate chiller straight into fermenter, does that not include a lot of cold break in it as well?



Yep, as chunky precipitated protein. I whirlpool so a lot of that chunky protein doesn't pass through.



Beer4U said:


> Genuine questions



Yep, good ones too. Basically, the protein getting into cube or fermenter isn't the question. Its the form the protein takes, either as a precipitated solid form or an aqueous one. The former is easier to separate out.. 

As I said, I don't really think either will substantially make a difference for certain types of beers (actually, nearly all the styles of beer that I hold near and dear).. but it will for others. Perhaps MHB's assertion for Pilsners rings true, at least to a small extent, here.

I'm keen to test this scientifically.. and I will this weekend. But I'll have to qualify my results because if I only no-chill 1L then it will cool substantially quicker than a whole cube would.


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## black_labb

There is a theory that chilling things quickly will precipitate proteins from the hot or cold break that chilling it slowly doesn't. 

I don't know wether it is real or not, but chilling the wort with an immersion chiller would theoretically leave it in the kettle. chilling via plate chillers or in a cube would be putting it into the fermentor. I don't see immersion chiller users claiming that plate chillers make inferior beer because of that. I'm not going to comment the accuracy of the theory but I think it;s 

One rushed brewday I ran the whole lot of the wort into the cube barely having turned off the heat. I've been doing it ever since. The trub settles out in the cube and leaves you with clear wort by the time you pitch. I will be doing a whirlpool for a few hoppy brews I'll be doing but that's mainly so the wort goes in at less than 97*C to get more hop aroma and flavour.

I'm not too worried about beer clarity past a certain level, but any lack of clarity I've had on some beers is from processes post ferment such as bottling without giving the beer time and/or cold temperatures to clear. I can get my beers as clear as I could want if I just gave it some time in the fridge. 


edit: beaten to it


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## mje1980

I recently did a few koelsh' in my cubes. Ended up bloody clear, and very tasty!


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## stux

People who chill and have never done a no-chill might not believe how crystal clear the wort is after a few days.

*requiring* a fast chill to have a cold break seems like baloney to me

Any "non-precipitated proteins" which make it into the cube drop to the bottom over a couple of days and you end up with all the break nicely piled on the bottom of the jerry.


Then you just pour off (ie decant) super clear wort into your fermenter until the stream runs a little cloudy... and stop.

If you want clear wort into your fermenter.


----------



## manticle

I brew on top of my cold break as I ferment straight in the cube. While there may be some observed or measured issues with this on a molecular level, on a taste level, real level, actual level, whatever level of relevance you want to use to a homebrewer and the consumption of their beer, there is no significant issue I can point to and say "cold break is responsible for that". I challenge anyone else to do so too.

I do separate my wort from the hot break and trub though.

The point about plate chillers made above to me is a good one - as far as I understand all cold break is transferred to fermenting vessel so its not uncommon for some chillers to be fermenting with CB.

I don't drink my beer cold enough for chill haze to be an issue but my understanding is that long lagering times will reduce chill haze (as will putting tiny pieces of plastic in it but I prefer not to))


----------



## kieran

manticle said:


> I brew on top of my cold break as I ferment straight in the cube. While there may be some observed or measured issues with this on a molecular level, on a taste level, real level, actual level, whatever level of relevance you want to use to a homebrewer and the consumption of their beer, there is no significant issue I can point to and say "cold break is responsible for that". I challenge anyone else to do so too.
> 
> I do separate my wort from the hot break and trub though.
> 
> The point about plate chillers made above to me is a good one - as far as I understand all cold break is transferred to fermenting vessel so its not uncommon for some chillers to be fermenting with CB.
> 
> I don't drink my beer cold enough for chill haze to be an issue but my understanding is that long lagering times will reduce chill haze (as will putting tiny pieces of plastic in it but I prefer not to))



Not sure if youre referring to what I wrote, but that wasn't what I was really talking about. More about the advent of eventual chill haze. 

Even still, alot of these things can be circumvented with things like 1um filters, etc. to clarify. 

As for fermenting on Trub, I agree that perhaps there indeed is some metabolic bonus to yeast to having it present.. maybe it's a good thing for yeast vigor.

Anyway, I'm not going to bother with that experiment now. I've thought about it thoroughly, and unless I'm no chilling a >20L volume and comparing against a chilled >20L its not really worth it to the homebrew community. I was going to do 1L of each, but the time 1L takes to return to RT will be tiny compared with the thermal mass of 20L cooling in the same manner (more rapid chilling, not really like no-chill!). So I don't think many brewers will be able to take much away from a sampled experiment like I was planning .. so I'll save my sunday afternoon and spend it with my kids. 
I do agree with you Manticle, that a quantitative measurement does not necessarily reflect on a qualitative measure (e.g. a taste), and vice versa. Human perception plays a big role in that. We can detect minute details of some flavours, and bugger all of others.


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## manticle

kieran said:


> Not sure if youre referring to what I wrote, but that wasn't what I was really talking about.



Not specifically - more a general response to the ensuing discussion about precipitated proteins and cold break and so forth (stux's post for example).

Just an experiential observation to add to the discussion.


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## The Village Idiot

Geez fella's been reading this topic and I suggest you have another beer......... too much chemistry dudes..........giving me a headache

Supposed to be a hobby not a lifestyle


----------



## lickapop

I tried no chill at least twice.

Next time you are in at bunnings or super cheap crack open a fresh willows cube and breath in all of its VOC goodness and then whack 90C+
liquid in it. Top stuff

Does my beer smell like an empty above ground pool on a scorching hot summers day? I cant really tell, but taste and smell aint everything.

I havent really crunched the numbers but I think I can come close to having as much useable water left over using my plate heat exchanger than what I PERSONALLY use with no chill.

3 x 25L willows cubes, slightly used to give away to a new home. Townsville area. PM me

<3


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## bum

The Village Idiot said:


> Geez fella's been reading this topic and I suggest you have another beer......... too much chemistry dudes..........giving me a headache
> 
> Supposed to be a hobby not a lifestyle


You're new at this, hey?


----------



## Cocko

bum said:


> You're new at this, hey?



:lol:


----------



## ///

bum said:


> You're new at this, hey?



Ohh no, bring on the science ... it learnt me some important stuff ...

As one who produced a few thousand cubes in his time, taking the same attention (or lack thereof) to late kettle utilisation and putting this approach to a plant with a spectophotometer (a scientific thing which tests for bitterness in beer), using higher alpha hops in the whirlpool (effectively a cube) gave a bitterness contribution of approx 30% which was unaccounted in the original recipes.

So, the old Amber Ale based on 35 Bu, would have been approx 52 BU. Bo Pils, 30 Bu would have been 45. But the craziness does not stop there, one of my beers with a target of 20 Bu sees 12Bu from the whirlpool hops with a 45 minute run off. We bitter to 8 bu, the WP gives the late kettle pickup and for flavour we dry hop the be-jesus out of the beer. Otherwise, if I did not cut back the WP hops we get a BU of about 40 ... the hops are 17 AA btw ...

So, if you are cubing knock off at least 30% of your bittering hops due to that scary science stuff giving good results ...

Scotty


----------



## The Village Idiot

bum said:


> You're new at this, hey?




Na, not really, just drink too much


----------



## ekul

When i was chilling it would take 45mins+ to chill a 23L brew. The water coming out of the tap was 5L a minute (with a maxiumum of 20L a minute), so 230L of water (at least) to chill a brew (immersion chiller). This was not really a problem as the water came from the dam, and was returned to the dam. I would have to completely fill and empty a cube 10 times for it to be the same amount of water used. This was in QLD were the water is coming out of the tap at around 25C.

To clean a cube i think i would use about 35L. I store my cubes full of napsian solution and then rinse them out when i need them. In my mind its considerably less water but i didn't stop chilling because of it. I stopped because i was getting recurrent infection from my wort sitting around unprotected for 45mins.

Are people using this amount (35L) of water to chill a brew?


----------



## lickapop

less

5L water in a bucket with a submersible pump and a big bucket of ice from the work ice machine. 
! still really want to know how much water I use to clean the chiller with but that all gets recycled back thru it with the pump. Maybe 10L of unusable water.

actually I tip it out half way thru so it is 10L plus the Ice


----------



## kieran

/// said:


> spectophotometer (a scientific thing which tests for bitterness in beer)
> Scotty



i wrote a big reply asking how that can be done, and then found my answer here that it can only be done after solvent extraction. 275nm absorbance after acidification and organic phase extraction with iso octane.

For any rev heads out there, you'll know that iso octane was the first additive to be mixed to fuel in the 1926 to reduce the common engine 'knocking' effect.. the name of iso octane is what has rubbed off on what we now term the "octane" rating of petroleum. Its good to have wikipedia back.


----------



## kieran

ekul said:


> Are people using this amount (35L) of water to chill a brew?



Shitloads more, but I'm recirculating through a 'dam' (rainwater tank) like yourself. Except my water is colder and I use a plate chiller (Therminator).
I just don't think immersion chillers are that great, I started off with one... it it was far too inefficient. Counterflow or plate chiller for me.
I can chill a 20L brew to 18C in 20 mins in summer (that's whirlpooling and getting the kettle down to almost that temp too [speaking of inefficiency!  i need to do something about that!]).


----------



## Doubleplugga

i whirlpool, leave for 15 to 20 mins. then run it through my plate chiller. all used water goes into the pool to top it up so it works out well. this is perth in summer though so my wort only gets dow to about 25-28 degrees. put fermenter in my fermenting fridge and cool it down to around 20 degrees then pitch. takes a few hours to get down to this temp but never had a problem yet.... touch wood! then i just crack it and add the yeast. ****, now that i have just spoken my next brew will probably be crawling with all sorts of shit


----------



## stux

lickapop said:


> Next time you are in at bunnings or super cheap crack open a fresh willows cube and breath in all of its VOC goodness and then whack 90C+
> liquid in it. Top stuff
> 
> Does my beer smell like an empty above ground pool on a scorching hot summers day? I cant really tell, but taste and smell aint everything.



I don't know about everyone else but when I beak in a new cube it involves deep soaks with hotwater and PBW to remove the VOCs


----------



## Thirsty Boy

kieran said:


> My 2c.
> 
> One thing you wont get around is higher levels of non-precipitated protein -- I don't know how significant that is without actually doing a side by side comparison. I'm doing a brew tomorrow, so perhaps I'll ween off a litre and let that "no chill", and I'll do a protein prep and do a proper quantitative comparison using a Bradford assay or something. Assuming there inherently is more protein, I think it could be said that bigger body beers, hoppy bitter Ales, IPAs and Stouts would see little effect from an increased protein content from a no-chill. However, more carefully balanced beers would require a significant amount of work to get them "right". However, the average general home brewhouse, I think is unable to make such consistent minor, well balanced, modifications to hit the nail on the head consistently for those beers. I would think that there is just too much variability and inconsistency.



think you will get around it - pretty sure that "it" doesn't actually exist.

The protiens in question are soluble at certain temperatures - insoluble at lower temperatures - and they come out of solution at those lower temperatures just as well whether it takes 15 minutes or 15 hours to get there. Think about it from the perspective of the concern you have - chill haze, which is mostly just an extension of cold break anyway. If those protiens only come out of solution and complex with tannins when the temperature is "quickly" lowered - then beers would only ever have chill haze if you chill them suddenly. Beer into bucket of ice equals chill haze - Beer into fridge door that tales a couple of hours to get it cold, equals no chill haze. We could all avoid it completely by just cooling our beer down slowly enough. That doesn't happen because its the temperature that matters, not the rate at which it gets there.

I'm just not sure where this notion that you need to chill quickly to form cold break comes from, if someone could point to to some decent source for the theory behind it, I would actually really appreciate it. I want to understand why so many homebrewers think its so, when I've yet to come accross a single reason why they should.


----------



## bum

Thirsty Boy said:


> I'm just not sure where this notion that you need to chill quickly to form cold break comes from, if someone could point to to some decent source for the theory behind it, I would actually really appreciate it. I want to understand why so many homebrewers think its so, when I've yet to come accross a single reason why they should.


The entire reason is paragraph two.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-4.html

I hope you understand that I don't think that I am providing you with the proof you are looking for.


----------



## MHB

The only people on the planet who have any justifiable concerns about Cold Break are North American brewers using 6 row malt and/or those using loads of unmalted adjunct.
All the literature about cold break comes from American commercial brewers and is picked up on by the home brewing community there and frustratingly at times here.
Where the idea that fast chilling is advantageous comes from is ultimately down to Stokes Law - the quicker you chill the faster the break forms the faster it forms, the bigger the flock the bigger the flock, the faster it settles.
Ultimately you get the same amount of break, fast chilling makes it clear faster and if you are concerned about cold break (remembering this was all written about in the pre-nochill days) and keeping it out of the fermenter fast chilling makes perfectly good sense. At best the cold break separation in any fast chill system available to home brewers is going to be partial at best, in theory I suspect that no-chill could give better separation as we can give the break material days even weeks to settle that might be an issue if you give a frig about cold break in the first place. Being fortunate enough to live in a place where we dont have to make beer out of cow food I dont.
Mark


----------



## Phoney

Batz said:


> I find it interesting how a lot of brewers who are so against NC, chill their beer with a chiller of some sort and don't quite reach pitching temperatures. Then guess what ? They put the fermenter in a fridge and pitch the next morning, much like no chill if you ask me.
> 
> Batz



I did this until I got an infection.

Now I pitch at ~25C (usually the ambient temp that my starter is at anyway) and within 8 hours in the fridge it's down to 18C. 



manticle said:


> -No chill when done properly can and will use less water. Bugger cleaning the chiller - it's the water you run through the chiller. IF you have a tank - no big deal. IF you don't (and many don't) then yes - big deal.



Another misnomer. You currently cube your wort, right? So cube your hot water instead! Obviously doesnt take a PHD student to figure that out. 

After splashing some hot water into the urn for cleaning, giving the bag and hop sock a hosing out, I never even manage to fill up my second 25L cube. These go on the vege garden in the following days/weeks.
I suppose if you live in an apartment and the water is going down the sink then fair enough, but then with the amount of water you're saving by not having a garden you're still coming out on top of a housedweller.


----------



## Hippy

/// said:


> Ohh no, bring on the science ... it learnt me some important stuff ...
> 
> As one who produced a few thousand cubes in his time, taking the same attention (or lack thereof) to late kettle utilisation and putting this approach to a plant with a spectophotometer (a scientific thing which tests for bitterness in beer), using higher alpha hops in the whirlpool (effectively a cube) gave a bitterness contribution of approx 30% which was unaccounted in the original recipes.
> 
> So, the old Amber Ale based on 35 Bu, would have been approx 52 BU. Bo Pils, 30 Bu would have been 45. But the craziness does not stop there, one of my beers with a target of 20 Bu sees 12Bu from the whirlpool hops with a 45 minute run off. We bitter to 8 bu, the WP gives the late kettle pickup and for flavour we dry hop the be-jesus out of the beer. Otherwise, if I did not cut back the WP hops we get a BU of about 40 ... the hops are 17 AA btw ...
> 
> So, if you are cubing knock off at least 30% of your bittering hops due to that scary science stuff giving good results ...
> 
> Scotty



If this is remotely accurate I have finally learnt something useful from this post.


----------



## manticle

I cube my cleaning water which goes on a vege/herb/hop garden. The rest of my cubes are used for fermenting in - I don't transfer the no chill wort, partly due to a horrible spate of infections I had some time ago.

You are right though - more than one way to skin a cat and a chiller can be conscientious with water even without a tank or pool. I may even add a plate chiller to my purchase list some time this year just so I can sit comfortably on the fence.

Let me rephrase. No chilling should use less water than chilling, regardless of what happens to the water afterwards. The idea that cleaning a chiller uses less water than cleaning a cube (as stated in the OP) was what I was originally responding to and seems a little bit of a straw man argument to me.


----------



## matho

manticle said:


> I may even add a plate chiller to my purchase list some time this year just so I can sit comfortably on the fence.


Do it manticle it's a good view from up here on the fence :lol: 

cheers steve


----------



## Maxt

/// said:


> So, if you are cubing knock off at least 30% of your bittering hops due to that scary science stuff giving good results ...
> 
> Scotty



I got flamed years ago for suggesting this effect Scotty. Using a hop like Galaxy as a late addition is out of control unless you use a figure like yours. Thanks for the (commercial and scientific) info.


----------



## lickapop

Stux said:


> I don't know about everyone else but when I beak in a new cube it involves deep soaks with hotwater and PBW to remove the VOCs




You wont rid it with deep soaks and PBW. VOC's will out last your cubes.
Its neither here nor there for most but VOC's have f#$ked me over enough to make me cautious.


----------



## the_new_darren

Still begs the question as to why brewers have been rapidly cooling their beer for centuries?

Why didn't they just let their beer cool slowly in the "kettle" and then pitch?

Why did the use of "coolships" become widely utilised WITH the obvious contamination risks involved?

I suspect that there was, at sometime in history, a link between slowly cooled (oxygenless) wort and "beer sickness".

Whether it was the dreaded CB or not, certainly No-chill provides the ideal conditions.

I reckon it will happen again (eventually) when someone happens to "optimise" the conditions (simmering boil and filthy cube). Lets just hope that the beer isn't served up at a party of unsuspecting guests!!

Flame suit on.

TND


----------



## manticle

If you're talking commercial breweries then no chill is a completely impractical and commercially unviable option.

This is a different scale entirely. On an HB scale no chill has been proven to work for many.

Your suspicions aren't based either on experience nor experiments in brewing science and haven't been borne out in reality thus far. Why you continually repeat them is beyond me. dr K spoke about parrots - you are one. Botulism is not an issue with no chill.

I'm not sure what filthy cubes have to do with anything. Anyone but the stupidest NC person will start with clean equipment, including their cube. For my money, the cube should be sanitised as well.


----------



## black_labb

Edit: replied to lickapop re VOC's. TND should use his rectum as a "filthy cube". might not make great beer but could help allow him to empty his bowels instead of spewing out so much of his shit online. Talk about "volatile organic compounds". 

I'm not an expert or anything but you don't seem to be either, but are being cautious because you don't have the knowledge to satisfy to yourself that it is safe. I probably don't have the knowledge either but I'll explain some of my thoughts

VOC's are a danger to breathe in. Inhaling them is much more dangerous than ingesting them as the body doesn't really absorb gasses through the stomach.

Any VOC's are likely to be pushed out of the cube when you squeeze the air out if they are there at all. Gasses are very insoluble at high temperatures. Past that situation having the wort in there is no different from fermenting in a fermentor of that material. I'd suggest that if any was dissolved into the wort from being in the cube it would be driven off in fermentation. 


I'd suggest that a beer made from no chilling is going to be many times healthier to be drinking than any of the megaswill in terms of chemicals.


I'm pretty sure the health risks involved in no chilling wort has been debated before. have you tried searching and having a read of it?


----------



## stux

Whether or not cubes have VOCs, and if you can drive it off. 

A new cube does have a plastic smell/taste. And you can rectify that with hot soaks/flushes. And then it won't.


----------



## Rina

/// said:


> So, if you are cubing knock off at least 30% of your bittering hops due to that scary science stuff giving good results ...
> 
> Scotty


Damn


----------



## lickapop

I dont have anything to back my statements up but from years of working with plastics, vinyl and epoxy. VOC's are there for the life of the product and are amplified by adding heat and chemical, ah la PBW/ sodium hydroxide etc.

Take an 'old' cube and sit it out in sun for a couple of hours and take a whiff.

IMO cubes are stable at room temp water. Thats what they are designed for. Its safe for human consumption. Start adding heat which they are not designed for and you will release more VOC's than what the manufacturer had intended its use for. From what I can gather anyway.


----------



## yardy

mash started @ 8.30, 23lt of schwarz _Chilled_ and on the yeast by 1.30, gotta admit it's nice to have the brewday over and done with and be _Chillaxing_ with a pint B)


----------



## manticle

@///:If you are cubing and going by a recipe that was designed around chilling, maybe. If you are using a recipe designed for an NC system- no.

Also if you are making a single bittering addition beer, you won't get anything like 30% extra aa. It's late hopping that's the issue.

If I'm incorrect, I'm happy to be corrected - your results were measured Scotty but my understanding is that a 90 minute boil won't extract a whole lot more aa than a 60 min - certainly not 30% more. NC wouldn't be too different.

For late hopping, I know from my own palate that NC does indeed make a difference and I could believe 15-30% quite easily.


----------



## alcoadam

As pre-filled cubes are now being sold in shops nation wide it leads me to believe that if there were any health concerns, even the authorities are unaware. People that say otherwise can only be using guesswork.....but, if it floats your boat! Companies do also re-use these containers.


I do notice the smell of a plastic container, I also can notice a faint odour with metals. If I was to put my tounge on certain metals, I will notice a taste as well...but at this stage I'm not panicking.


We expose our skin (which does absorb) to chemicals everyday from the moment we hit the shower. No one really knows (yet) what is to come from all this exposure though if the cube was of a concern to me, there would also be a long list of other things.


----------



## sim

Its all gonna have alot to do with your approach: why you're making beer, how you like to do things in general.

On from your point alcoadam, the fact that NC drums are sold doesnt mean they're safe, whether the authorities know or not. People have been poisoning themselves since the dawn of time, and sometimes quite enjoyably. 

Of late i have been moving away from plastics in all instances where i can, and as a consumer try and only use materials which are reusable and recycleable, so not just for a health/food saftey reasons. This means everything in my brewery is relativley inert - silicone, stainless and glass. Costs a bit more, and lasts alot longer. I like it that way, thats my approach.


----------



## lickapop

Well after 20 years of working with certain plastic products with nil problems, over night my system rejected them and I will be hospitalised if I come in contact with them now.

I wouldn't blink an eyelid if I knew the beer I was drinking was cubed but I personally would not do it every brew for years on end.


----------



## alcoadam

sim said:


> Its all gonna have alot to do with your approach: why you're making beer, how you like to do things in general.
> 
> On from your point alcoadam, the fact that NC drums are sold doesnt mean they're safe, whether the authorities know or not. People have been poisoning themselves since the dawn of time, and sometimes quite enjoably.
> 
> Of late i have been moving away from plastics in all instances where i can, and as a consumer try and only use materials which are reusable and recycleable, not just for a health/food saftey reasons. This means everything in my brewery is relativley inert - silicone, stainless and glass. Costs a bit more, and lasts alot longer. I like it that way, thats my approach.




I agree they may not be safe and authorities could be dragging their feet but the point I'm making is that if this area is of concern, you should really be concerned about many other things, such as chemicals contained within your shampoo/deoderant, your coffee that may come in a plastic cup, the plastic holding your microwave dinner or your chinese take-away, your poor quality stainless cutlery that runs over your tounge 10's thounds times and have you heard of what goes into chewing gum!? You probably get my drift.

We're all probably doomed, but if I was to think about it too much i'd probably turn hippy.


(though I've never been a fan of lentils)


----------



## sim

alcoadam said:


> We're all probably doomed, but if I was to think about it too much i'd probably turn hippy.



Yeah dont do that... The lack of chemicals in your healthy new diet makes you grow hair real quick, and the heightened consiousness makes it difficult to get boozed, and your thoughtfullness and careing comments will have you bannished to sitting with the christians at partys, and even if your various "causes" comes good and the world prospers it'll just get old and boring anyway etc etc 

...just sayin.


----------



## alcoadam

sim said:


> Yeah dont do that... The lack of chemicals in your healthy new diet makes you grow hair real quick, and the heightened consiousness makes it difficult to get boozed, and your thoughtfullness and careing comments will have you bannished to sitting with the christians at partys, and even if your various "causes" comes good and the world prospers it'll just get old and boring anyway etc etc
> 
> ...just sayin.




Also heard the world is ending later this year so I'll just continue on....I also like my "chemical glow" complection at night.


----------



## manticle

Is that so you can fit right in at bush doof trance parties?


----------



## alcoadam

manticle said:


> Is that so you can fit right in at bush doof trance parties?




My chemical laced beers are always popular....


----------



## manticle

Natural high man, natural high.














You said wwwwhat amphetamine? How much?


----------



## sim

will somebody please think of the children!


----------



## sim

"what kind of tea did you say you brew?"


----------



## ekul

I don't know if this has any bearing at all but in the spirit of ahb i thought i'd add it.

In a recrystallisation you get bigger crystals if the solvent temperature is lowered slowly than if you fawst chill it, as the crystals have more time to form and join together. So *maybe* the nochill means that more cold break will settle out because the protein size is bigger? I do know that the top half of my cube is very clear (until i shake it up to oxygenate!).


----------



## pk.sax

When I wanted clear wort I just siphoned off the top of break in the cube. It's easier for me ATM than working out how to use/dispose a million litres of water in an apartment.
Plan is to get a plate chiller someday and work out a super efficient and fast way that uses 1 bag of ice to chill before I do. In the meantime, my kettle needs a pickup tube made and a HLT would be very nice. Just don't see the priority of chilling ATM.
Chilled out - fool.

PS: anyone know if Ross would sell a 3/4" to 1/2" reducer? Not on his site and needed. Or maybe somewhere I can get a 3/4" comp fitting to accept a 1/2" copper tube.

PPS: I don't pay for water. And I wonder why we would with how much there is in Cairns. The body corp can pay for my brewing water.


----------



## the_new_darren

manticle said:


> If you're talking commercial breweries then no chill is a completely impractical and commercially unviable option.
> 
> This is a different scale entirely. On an HB scale no chill has been proven to work for many.
> 
> Your suspicions aren't based either on experience nor experiments in brewing science and haven't been borne out in reality thus far. Why you continually repeat them is beyond me. dr K spoke about parrots - you are one. Botulism is not an issue with no chill.
> 
> I'm not sure what filthy cubes have to do with anything. Anyone but the stupidest NC person will start with clean equipment, including their cube. For my money, the cube should be sanitised as well.




Womanticle,

Still not sure what it is about coolships etc for cooling wort quickly. Most commercial brewers I know of (including centuries ago) transfer wort to "fermentation containers" that could obviously have been used to "no-chill" wort!!

Now I am not talking about "megabreweries" we see today where hundreds of thousands of litres of wort are produced in a single day, I am considering a minor brewery that would make maybe 10,000 litres in a week. These breweries are equipped with several "grants", storage and fermentation tanks that are mostly unoccupied for days if not weeks at a time. Can you explain that beyond the "commercially unviable"?? Perhaps the pundits of "no-chill" are just the parrots that DK was referring to???

Filthy cubes loaded with heat resistant bacteria are a potential problem. Even Thirsty Boy has admitted the possibility!!

For reference, blood transfusions have routinely performed successfully since early last century. It took 80 or so years before a link between infectious disease (Hepatitis B then HIV and Hepatitis C) transmittion. This was only the case because thousands of transfusions happen everyday and a direct cause-effect could be easily demonstrated. Why did it take sooooo long for the most rigorous testing facilities, with the most highly qualified physicians to determine this given the thousands upon thousands of clearly (hindsight) cases.

I dont want to enter into the amount of plasticisers being leached into hot wort arguement (although it is also a worry).

Rather than a parrot, I see myself as a prophet  .

To all the nay-sayers...........................................

Just chill  

TND


----------



## manticle

Any brewery that is operating on a commercial level, whether macro or micro or nano, still has it in their own interests to chill and pitch as quickly as possible.

Your argument that what commercials do/have done is what we should do doesn't hold water.

Many people have brought science into this debate/discussion. Others have brought their own experience. Some have brought both. You bring neither, despite your science background (microbiology no less).

If you have one shred of evidence that beer has ever hosted a pathogen capable of harming a human in large enough amounts to cause damage then I'd love to know. You're beyond speculating or prohesising - you're just frothing at the mouth about things you should make an effort to learn more about.

Filthy cubes is only relevant in the same way that filthy kettles, fermenters, tubes or whatever else are relevant. We all know that cleanliness is the first step towards sanitary. If you brew with filthy equipment you probably deserve whatever stupid pathogen comes your way. Mostly however filthy cubers will probably just make shit beer. Most literature (all?) confirms that there are no human pathogens that can survive in beer - just a few types of microflora that make it taste bad.

Do you have one incident that you can cite to the contrary? One example of this so called 'beer sickness"?

You may be right mate. If you are, rather than simply repeating the same speculative negativity, time and time again, find some way of measuring it, proving it or at least experientially suggesting it. Until then it's all just hot air. You as an (ex) scientist should know that your hypothesis is worth nothing until you can provide some actual evidence in its favour.

If and when you can, I'll be the first to pull my head in and start chillin' man.


----------



## JDW81

alcoadam said:


> (though I've never been a fan of lentils)



You must not have a decent indian joint near you. A good and spicy lentil curry is one of my staples.


----------



## Batz

JDW81 said:


> You must not have a decent indian joint near you. A good and spicy lentil curry is one of my staples.




We too


----------



## alcoadam

JDW81 said:


> You must not have a decent indian joint near you. A good and spicy lentil curry is one of my staples.




Is the rumour true, indians don't bother with toilet paper?


----------



## pk.sax

alcoadam said:


> Is the rumour true, indians don't bother with toilet paper?


Hahahahha

Only if they have a mug/jug or something full of water closeby.
We got a water jet installed in the old place 

PS: definite infatuation with washing with water. Never seen an Indian squirming uncomfortably at the idea of just wiping their hands on napkins before/after a meal? lol. It makes for some hilarious moments with the family.


----------



## manticle

practicalfool said:


> Only if they have ........... something full of water closeby.



So that explains the Ganges.


----------



## pk.sax

manticle said:


> So that explains the Ganges.


Poor ganga.
She washes away a bit more than sins I guess!


----------



## donburke

out of interest, how long do you reckon it would take a 10,000 litre no chill cube to chill to an ambient temp of say 20 degrees ?


or perhaps how long it takes for 200,000 litres to cool


i'd say a week maybe more,


so a commercial brewery is gonna wait a week to cool down the beer to start fermenting ?

lets not kid ourselves, they run the whole process in a week, tying up less floorspace and capital in equipment



forget any bacteria, plastic, protein issues, water saving etc

its just not feasible to do on a large scale, thats why its not done commercially


----------



## alcoadam

practicalfool said:


> Hahahahha
> 
> Only if they have a mug/jug or something full of water closeby.
> We got a water jet installed in the old place
> 
> PS: definite infatuation with washing with water. Never seen an Indian squirming uncomfortably at the idea of just wiping their hands on napkins before/after a meal? lol. It makes for some hilarious moments with the family.




Water jet ay?....I spent the last 10 years up in Cairns, you take a bit of water wherever u can get it :lol: 

Did quite a bit of brewing up there too without a fermenting fridge, I made some surprisingly shit beer.


----------



## manticle

donburke said:


> out of interest, how long do you reckon it would take a 10,000 litre no chill cube to chill to an ambient temp of say 20 degrees ?
> 
> 
> or perhaps how long it takes for 200,000 litres to cool
> 
> 
> i'd say a week maybe more,
> 
> 
> so a commercial brewery is gonna wait a week to cool down the beer to start fermenting ?
> 
> lets not kid ourselves, they run the whole process in a week, tying up less floorspace and capital in equipment
> 
> 
> 
> forget any bacteria, plastic, protein issues, water saving etc
> 
> its just not feasible to do on a large scale, thats why its not done commercially



Not only that but the impact it has on your knees when you are trying to squeeze the air out is an OHS issue.


----------



## the_new_darren

manticle said:


> You as an (ex) scientist should know that your hypothesis is worth nothing until you can provide some actual evidence in its favour.
> 
> If and when you can, I'll be the first to pull my head in and start chillin' man.



You as a kitchen hand should do a science degree and learn about the null hypothesis??

Did you miss the bit about HBV and HIV? Records show many scientists reporting the null hypothesis but like you...no-one listened.

Result, a massive expansion in HBV and HIV in the heterosexual, non-asian, non-drug using community.

Keep on no-chilling mate....there wont be any problems because it is IMPOSSIBLE.....Yeah?

TND


----------



## manticle

I didn't say it was impossible. I said there is no evidence and you can't provide any. Beer has been around for longer than 80 years mate. I'm not asking for evidence that no chill will lead to botulism bacteria outbreaks so much as asking for evidence that botulism has ever been an issue in brewing ever in its entire history.

Bit more than 80 years. Try several thousand. Got some proof for your assertions? Any evidence whatsoever? Call me whatever you like but you're still full of hot air.

Just finised a masters in cultural materials conservation by the way. Includes chemistry as a major component. Also completed a year of biology at tertiary level a few years back. Bit more than a kitchchenhand's perspective, champ. You have absolutely nothing to support your hypothesis yet you still bang on about it. Either design an experiment around it or shut the **** up.

Bad science and ad hominem. Way to go.


----------



## donburke

hey darren, health risks aside, from a scientific point, how long do you reckon it would take a 10,000 square container full of 100 deg wort (made of stainless steel) to cool to ambient temp of 20 deg ?

say it was 10mm thick to stop it collapsing

any idea ?




the_new_darren said:


> You as a kitchen hand should do a science degree and learn about the null hypothesis??
> 
> Did you miss the bit about HBV and HIV? Records show many scientists reporting the null hypothesis but like you...no-one listened.
> 
> Result, a massive expansion in HBV and HIV in the heterosexual, non-asian, non-drug using community.
> 
> Keep on no-chilling mate....there wont be any problems because it is IMPOSSIBLE.....Yeah?
> 
> TND


----------



## JDW81

alcoadam said:


> Is the rumour true, indians don't bother with toilet paper?



It's the same in turkey, no TP, just a hose over the squat pan. A bit confronting at first but once you work it out it's all good.


----------



## pk.sax

alcoadam said:


> Did quite a bit of brewing up there too without a fermenting fridge, I made some surprisingly shit beer.


lol.. I got sick of changing ice bottles twice a day and got myself a sweet fermenting fridge  Its done a great job so far!


----------



## ///

manticle said:


> @///:If you are cubing and going by a recipe that was designed around chilling, maybe. If you are using a recipe designed for an NC system- no.
> 
> Also if you are making a single bittering addition beer, you won't get anything like 30% extra aa. It's late hopping that's the issue.
> 
> If I'm incorrect, I'm happy to be corrected - your results were measured Scotty but my understanding is that a 90 minute boil won't extract a whole lot more aa than a 60 min - certainly not 30% more. NC wouldn't be too different.
> 
> For late hopping, I know from my own palate that NC does indeed make a difference and I could believe 15-30% quite easily.



Some well made points, and you are right, late hopping is the issue. The approach for hops i used for NC I applied to chill, different grists but still truck loads of hops. I dug back through my records, the pale at work I tested with the Spectro on an old batch from the previous brewery I bittered to 35 BU with no consideration for isomerization from the 2 grams a litre whirlpool hops at the whirlpool. The tested bitterness was 70. A NC likely, and I say likely, could have been higher.

So I take a minimum of 30% off for the target bitterness on a chill recipe, if I was NC I would likely take off 50% to get it correct. 

For the single hop edition and the bittering contribution, for a 60 - 90 minute boil with 1 edition my results showed a 3 Bu difference. Why anyone spend the extra time and energy boiling that extra 30 minutes I do not know ...

Scotty


----------



## manticle

I'm also curious (and speculating myself) as to what individual homebrewers' storage of hops will bring to the party.

It becomes very inaccurate trying to account for increase in bitterness when no chilling if your 5.8% hops have been in a plastic bag in the fridge for 7 months.

Main point I guess being back to what TB was saying - all methods need you to work with the advantages and limitations within that method, not cuss the method itself (not suggesting in any way that you are Scotty)


----------



## pk.sax

donburke said:


> hey darren, health risks aside, from a scientific point, how long do you reckon it would take a 10,000 square container full of 100 deg wort (made of stainless steel) to cool to ambient temp of 20 deg ?
> 
> say it was 10mm thick to stop it collapsing
> 
> any idea ?



I'll tell you one other thing from my limited non-scientist, engineering perspective.

Ever noticed how much the cube shrinks as it cools? Making tanks taht would withstand that kind of expansion and contraction on a regular basis would be collosal waste of money. If a commercial brewery does do that, they don't deserve to be in business.
Besides that, unless they are putting the tanks outside the buildings, the heat radiated/conducted to air from these would make working in that brewery impossible, and then again, even outside, ever noticed how bad it is in underground carparks where aircons blow out all the heat?
Lets not even talk about the commercial implication of going that far from a standard practice and the negative publicity and loss of (paranoid) customers they will suffer if they did so in giant plastic tanks.
All in all, no-chilling on a commercial scale is a stupid idea that would get a brewery to go under real fast (or contribute to it).

For craft business, 'traditional' is a word that sells. If you fermenters are 'traditional squares', that sells, someone who is in the business might even confirm this.


----------



## donburke

practicalfool said:


> I'll tell you one other thing from my limited non-scientist, engineering perspective.
> 
> Ever noticed how much the cube shrinks as it cools? Making tanks taht would withstand that kind of expansion and contraction on a regular basis would be collosal waste of money. If a commercial brewery does do that, they don't deserve to be in business.
> Besides that, unless they are putting the tanks outside the buildings, the heat radiated/conducted to air from these would make working in that brewery impossible, and then again, even outside, ever noticed how bad it is in underground carparks where aircons blow out all the heat?
> Lets not even talk about the commercial implication of going that far from a standard practice and the negative publicity and loss of (paranoid) customers they will suffer if they did so in giant plastic tanks.
> All in all, no-chilling on a commercial scale is a stupid idea that would get a brewery to go under real fast (or contribute to it).
> 
> For craft business, 'traditional' is a word that sells. If you fermenters are 'traditional squares', that sells, someone who is in the business might even confirm this.



i walk into the room the next day and notice the difference in temperature, and thats only 80 litres

might try sending this challenge in to mythbusters


----------



## Shed101

manticle said:


> I'm also curious (and speculating myself) as to what individual homebrewers' storage of hops will bring to the party.



To quote a homebrewer - William Cobbett - from 1821 (I happened to be reading Cottage Economy):

"As to the age of hops, they retain for twenty years, probably their power of preserving beer; but not of giving it a pleasant flavour. I have used them at ten years old, and should have no fear of using them at twenty. They lose none of their bitterness, none of their power of preserving beer; but they lose the other quality..."

Now this fella was definitely a 'no-chiller.' Although he did use coolers.

My personal experience with slow-chilling (I throw the cube into 1200 gallons of rainwater) is I use at least as much as recipes suggest and don't get unbalanced beers.


----------



## Shed101

donburke said:


> might try sending this challenge in to mythbusters



Excellent - then we can start another thread about how they did it wrong!!! :lol:


----------



## yardy

a stainless steel cube would solve the worlds problems...


----------



## Shed101

yardy said:


> a stainless steel cube would solve the worlds problems...


 Good thinking ... maybe double skinned with some kind of frozen liquid in the cavity?


----------



## pk.sax

Shed101 said:


> Excellent - then we can start another thread about how they did it wrong!!! :lol:


THinking about it, if the challenge were to keep your room warm by using a cube of NC wort, with its higher heat retaining capacity than regular 100C water, that might get some all-grain brewer on the show to make said cube of beer


----------



## pk.sax

yardy said:


> a stainless steel cube would solve the worlds problems...


Bring it on skynet, we're training our knees to squeeze steel.


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery

It would make for riveting television. Imagine watching the SS vessel cool that wort .... i'm excited......
Cheers
BBB


----------



## ///

manticle said:


> Main point I guess being back to what TB was saying - all methods need you to work with the advantages and limitations within that method, not cuss the method itself (not suggesting in any way that you are Scotty)



No problemo, either method far from wrong, calcs were!


----------



## manticle

With you on that.

Cheers


----------



## the_new_darren

donburke said:


> hey darren, health risks aside, from a scientific point, how long do you reckon it would take a 10,000 square container full of 100 deg wort (made of stainless steel) to cool to ambient temp of 20 deg ?
> 
> say it was 10mm thick to stop it collapsing
> 
> any idea ?



Hey Don,

What is the ambient temperature?

Can I whirlpool or stir?

What are the size of the container?

If its tall and thin like most fermenters and not sealed (aka no-chill cubes) I cannot see a problem with cooling.

2 days maybe?

lets get the myth busters stuff going....inoculate wort with Clostridium botulinum and see if it grows under anaerobic conditions. Compare low-hopped wort with highly hopped wort.

Sounds like a challenge to me. Would answer the debate (hypothesis/null hypothesis).

cheers

Dr. Darren


----------



## bigfridge

donburke said:


> i walk into the room the next day and notice the difference in temperature, and thats only 80 litres



/// will remember the time that we filled his little Corrolla with a few hundred litres of red-hot cubes plus some just primed and bottled beers.

The next day as he opened the door to go home he was blown backwards by the heat wave that exploded from the cab. Needless to say he didn't need the heater on all the way home plus the beers were fully cabed and conditioned !


----------



## bum

the_new_darren said:


> and not sealed (aka no-chill cubes)


For someone who seems to post only in order to discredit no-chilling, you'd think you might go out of your way to find out what no chilling actually is.

An airtight seal is _essential_ to the practise.


----------



## the_new_darren

bum said:


> For someone who seems to post only in order to discredit no-chilling, you'd think you might go out of your way to find out what no chilling actually is.
> 
> An airtight seal is _essential_ to the practise.




Yeah, likewise, an airtight seal is exactly why CB will thrive................anaerobic conditions (no air)

tnd


----------



## pk.sax

so, ur saying NickJD's method of chilling in 19L pot sealed with clingwrap (airtight but with trapped air) is actually better?


----------



## manticle

the_new_darren said:


> Yeah, likewise, an airtight seal is exactly why CB will thrive................anaerobic conditions (no air)
> 
> tnd



One verified example of CB living in wort or beer - just one.

You have several thousand years of brewing history and practice in which to find an example.

Again not saying you are wrong - just asking you, kindly and politely, to provide some reasonable evidence for your assertions.

There is a lot of experiential data that suggests CB is not an issue with no chill, wort or beer. Can you provide evidence to the contrary?


Nothing I have written there is rude or antagonistic and I am interested in any real data you may have.


----------



## Thefatdoghead

People keep banging on about bloody Botulism and VOC's in plastics but I gotta say shouldn't we be more worried about alcoholism? I have about 150L of piss in my fridge because I love brewing, try my hardest to get through it I even get the mates around to try and free up some kegs. I'm going to have to set myself some rules or something. 
Im off to search a thread that I have no doubt is on here about drinking to much
:icon_cheers:


----------



## Deebo

manticle said:


> One verified example of CB living in wort or beer - just one.
> 
> You have several thousand years of brewing history and practice in which to find an example.
> 
> Again not saying you are wrong - just asking you, kindly and politely, to provide some reasonable evidence for your assertions.
> 
> There is a lot of experiential data that suggests CB is not an issue with no chill, wort or beer. Can you provide evidence to the contrary?
> 
> 
> Nothing I have written there is rude or antagonistic and I am interested in any real data you may have.



I'm confused about this argument, why would CB be more likely in no chill than chilling? 
Wouldnt the heat make it harder for it to survive? Or is it the time before pitching yeast that is more risky?


----------



## alcoadam

My concerns are really growing too.....should I continue to use my travel flask? (it's filled with hot liquid and air tight)


----------



## jyo

Gav80 said:


> People keep banging on about bloody Botulism and VOC's in plastics but I gotta say shouldn't we be more worried about alcoholism?



Maaade, you gan goan ged fugged! I'm nodan an alco... jus wait I godda bash the missus....


I want to get a plate chiller for my highly hopped APA's. 
Can I adjust my recipes to produce cracking highly hopped beers using no-chill? I think so. So do some judges (not magistrates).

Do I worry about the possible leaching of plasticisers in hot wort? A little, tiny bit.

Will I still no chill when I get my chiller? Fo shiz. 

I would also like to hear of one accountable example of botulism in wort/beer, Chumbalumbalar infinity.


----------



## Cocko

jyo said:


> Chumbalumbalar infinity.



Best. post. ever.

:super:


----------



## sim

mahhhhhhh  

+1


----------



## the_new_darren

Deebo said:


> I'm confused about this argument, why would CB be more likely in no chill than chilling?
> Wouldnt the heat make it harder for it to survive? Or is it the time before pitching yeast that is more risky?



Yeah it does cause some confusion mostly by bigoted individuals who refuse to recognise the possibilities of reality.

Clostridium botulinum (CB) is heat resistant so is not generally killed by the boil. If your cube is NOT thoroughly cleaned and sanitised there could be a problem. The more often that a single cube is used the more likely that an "adverse" event will occur.

CB thrive in anaerobic conditions (this is wort without oxygen as usual with a no-chill batch due to the boil and a sealed cube)

The reason why it wont survive in a chilled brew rather than no-chill is decause of oxygen.

No chill is devoid of oxygen, the perfect breeding ground for anaerobic bacteria.

cheers

the_new_darren

PS: I have not addressed the leaching of plastics from cubes designed for COLD WATER in this post

NO_CHILL at your own peril.
cheers Dr K


----------



## argon

On the Internet not answering a specific and repeated question (from Manticle to the_new_douche) is as good as an admission in error. 


My money's on tnd never finding that evidence.


----------



## ekul

I meant to write this last night but i must have forgotten to press send.

I don't think a nochill cube is anaerobic. Try as i might there is always a small air bubble in there. PLus this patent for using hops extract to kill botulin spores makes me think nochill is safe. Personally i'd be more worried about waht the alcohol is doing to me, there's plenty of evidence that says its bad for us!


----------



## WarmBeer

Verified non-dead no-chill brewer here.

Put me down as a +1 on the Manticle side of the argument.

Oh, and my mum's non-dead, too, and she has drunk my beer as well...


----------



## bum

Grow out your pubes.


----------



## yardy

practicalfool said:


> Bring it on skynet, we're training our knees to squeeze steel.



mate..the new and improved stainless steel cube has a QD fitting and a relief valve.


----------



## donburke

yardy said:


> mate..the new and improved stainless steel cube has a QD fitting and a relief valve.




has there been any discussion before about using a keg as a no chill vessel ?


----------



## yardy

not sure, you want to be the first ?


----------



## Phoney

I got botulism poisoning from a no chilled beer once. I drank a whole heap of it one night. Then the next morning I woke up covered in dried puke, my head was pouding, couldnt remember anything from the night before and felt sick as a dog for the next 24 hours.

Be careful folks.


----------



## donburke

darren,


please re-read my question, the parameters were already given




the_new_darren said:


> Hey Don,
> 
> What is the ambient temperature?
> 
> Can I whirlpool or stir?
> 
> What are the size of the container?
> 
> If its tall and thin like most fermenters and not sealed (aka no-chill cubes) I cannot see a problem with cooling.
> 
> 2 days maybe?
> 
> lets get the myth busters stuff going....inoculate wort with Clostridium botulinum and see if it grows under anaerobic conditions. Compare low-hopped wort with highly hopped wort.
> 
> Sounds like a challenge to me. Would answer the debate (hypothesis/null hypothesis).
> 
> cheers
> 
> Dr. Darren


----------



## bradsbrew

donburke said:


> has there been any discussion before about using a keg as a no chill vessel ?






yardy said:


> not sure, you want to be the first ?



FFS do a search guys.  Of course there has. It was frowned upon becuase it would suck air in through the poppets as it cooled. But I reckon you could combat that by running a short line from gas to beer QD's with JG fittings.


----------



## donburke

yardy said:


> not sure, you want to be the first ?




truman will


----------



## yardy

bradsbrew said:


> FFS do a search guys



FFS I'm so embarrassment..


----------



## goomboogo

the_new_darren said:


> Yeah, likewise, an airtight seal is exactly why CB will thrive................anaerobic conditions (no air)
> 
> tnd



You really are obsessed with Ross. I'm sure his business is going ok but I'm positive it needs oxygen to survive. Ross probably does too. Did he deprive you of oxygen when he started selling all your grain?


----------



## pk.sax

donburke said:


> truman will


All power to Mr T

PS: I had a genuine idea about using a keg to chill.
If a copper coil were to be wrapped along the inside of a keg. Fill the keg with wort and then run cooling water through the coil to chill. That's a massive surface area and any cold break will form in the keg, that will double up as yeast nutrient in the fv when chilled to te right temp, albeit, the break will have been precipitated nicely avoiding dissolved proteins. The coil will be connected to the line in/out of the keg and fed cooled water with a small pump setup with a temp controller to keep the brew cool through ferment. The org would be doctored with a suitably modified spring to let CO2 out.
Setting up a 'jacket' chilled SS fermenter that will fit nicely in the usual chesty arrangement or outside with a jacket to keep it insulate and fed cold water. I'm sure with a few holes and welds the functionality of a conical fermenter can be realised.

Pssstttt: I still vote for steel crushing knees you pussies.


----------



## seamad

Might be a bit tricky coiling a copper tube inside a corny keg.


----------



## stux

seamad said:


> Might be a bit tricky coiling a copper tube inside a corny keg.



Rotate the spiral in. 

Ps: the problem is not the poppets, it's the lid seal which is designed to seal under pressure not vacuum


----------



## dent

Seems to me that 'no-chill-in-the-fermenter' is the solution for avoiding any botulism, since there is plenty of air in there. Obviously that takes away the (dubious IMO) benefit of pitching weeks later.


----------



## bignath

dent said:


> Seems to me that 'no-chill-in-the-fermenter' is the solution for avoiding any botulism, since there is plenty of air in there. Obviously that takes away the (dubious IMO) benefit of pitching weeks later.



this post reads like you may not understand how no chill works to me. I don't understand what you mean by a "benefit of pitching weeks later". 

Benefits of no chilling aren't to deliberately hold off pitching yeast. It's so that you can brew today, and pitch whenever a fermenter becomes available. The amount of time i've had available to brew when my fermenters were full has steered me down the path of no chill. 

Make hay while the sun shines 'cause one day soon it's gonna piss down....

Other benefit's are using less water/reducing an environmental footprint blah blah blah. I'm not a hippy, but not everyone has the ability to recycle the water they use to chill with. Mine would pretty much have to go straight down the drain with my setup.
The cube needs to be squeezed to get as much air out as possible so that it, among many things, doesn't let any nasties in like wild yeasts and start fermenting it before you're ready to ferment it yourself. It's also the heat of the wort in the cube that helps with maintaining an environment where most things won't be comfortable growing.

Seems to me (couldn't be fucked reading EVERY post in this thread) that what some are debating is maybe one type of organism that could potentially still thrive in a typical no chill environment. Happy to be corrected if i've got that wrong. FWIW, i have no knowledge and therefore no opinion as to whether what is being debated is possible or not (although i've always found manticle's posts very informative - apart from the one of him having a pull in a mates empty cube).

In my opinion, (long time no chiller), the benefits of no chilling in a cube, drastically outweigh the potential of this singular negative.


----------



## sim

i did no chill in corny kegs for a while there. i would punch in 300kpa of co2 to try and negate the vacuum caused by cooling. i think it worked, never quite felt happy with it though and would always pitch the next day. ultimately pushed me over the edge towards chilling.



Big Nath said:


> I'm not a hippy, but not everyone has the ability to recycle the water they use to chill with. Mine would pretty much have to go straight down the drain with my setup.



heh, totally radical idea cautioned with but im not a hippy.


----------



## pk.sax

I think the one valid point Darren has put forward and should have said it better is that the organisms responsible for botulism won't manifest themselves like other infections and will go completely unnoticed up to the point that the poisoning affects the drinker. That is indeed a scary thought however, how many brewers simply rinsed their fv and bottles with hot water only have never got an infection? It's quite rare to get an infection unless your environment is very conducive to them.
Also, the ideal conditions for the botulism bacteria to survive, waiting for a cube of wort is also questionable.
What effect does the rigorous boil in the kettle have on driving off micro-organisms, especially the botulism bacteria is another question.

In my view, much like what Manticle asked before, Darren raises a valid point, but given his scientific background a better thought out advice would be expected of him. To me, a clear case of too little information being a dangerous thing. If he could apply those simple scientific processes to his analysis of how wort ends up in a cube, perhaps he might actually come up with a real reason to do or not to no-chill. Until then, it's all half-informed hearsay. I think the term is 'scare mongering'. I really don't believe Darren understands the complete process of wort into cube as well he makes it out to be.


----------



## lickapop

phoneyhuh said:


> I got botulism poisoning from a no chilled beer once. I drank a whole heap of it one night. Then the next morning I woke up covered in dried puke, my head was pouding, couldnt remember anything from the night before and felt sick as a dog for the next 24 hours.
> 
> Be careful folks.




I call that a hangover ;P


----------



## Pat Casey

When I first opened at Faulconbridge I would regularly put wort kits on in the shop. Pre-ferment hydrometer samples all seemed to have a similar character to their taste. I thought this was just the house character of the producer. I did a couple of no-chill brews, and the pre-ferment hydrometer samples had the same character in their taste. 

The taste of hot wort cooling slowly in plastic? 

Perhaps, but would this taste be apparent in the finished beer? I think any no chill flavour would be lost in the great transformation of fermentation. Has anybody had a comp scoresheet come back with negative comments about "no-chill flavours" in the beer?

All of this can be tested. Brew a pale and lightly hopped wort, run half off into a cube and chill the remaining half. Ferment them side by side with the same yeast. Package the two beers and then serve them up in a blind triangular taste test. This would be a nice exercise for a brew club.

Because of my experiences I don't think no-chill is an ideal method, but it's not an ideal world. I think it's a useful technique to get you going, or if you are pressed for time, but I don't think it is a technique to aspire to. But, if it comes down to a choice between no-chill and no beer, then no-chill wins every time.

Pat


----------



## Nick JD

practicalfool said:


> so, ur saying NickJD's method of chilling in 19L pot sealed with clingwrap (airtight but with trapped air) is actually better?



I think what he's getting at is that a chilled cube, if it contains a few _C. botulinum_ cells can produce enough toxins in the cooled wort to poison the wort before it has even begun fermenting.

After the fermentation is finished these toxins (you only need SFA to be paralysed and fully fucked up) are then kegged or bottled. The bug doesn't get you - it's shit does. When they botox people's faces, it's the shit they inject.

There's a chance we've all had _C. botulinum_ cells in our beer that have been kept at bay by the yeast and there hasn't been enough toxin produced to paralyse our faces ... but an infected nochill cube left at room temp for 3 weeks? Unless you reboil it and denature the toxin it would get you for sure. In the old days a preserved jar of peaches would kill the whole family.

Question is: why haven't we had it happen yet? Is _should_ have. I strongly believe it's the pH of the wort that's limiting any growth of _C. botulinum_, otherwise we'd have had a case or two and none of us would be doing it. I think the hop oils and acids are also helping us here as well. These are things Darren seems to be forgetting to mention.

But if your cube has swelled - DO NOT FERMENT IT!

_C. botulinum_ does not like air. Or a pH below 4.5 - but the quicker you can get your army of yeast into the wort, the better.

Oh, and this is what polyethylene is made from. About as simple a plastic as is possible to produce.


----------



## stux

Time for some facts

"There have been only six cases of botulism reported in Australia between 1991 and 2003. Two of these occurred in Victoria in 2000 and 2001 (Communicable Diseases Network Australia - National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance System)."

How many of those six cases were due to no-chilled beer?

I think I can guess.

Botulism, ie quite literally, 'sausage poisoning', is I would guess, most often caught from ill-cured preserved meats/sausages. And is a reason why I won't use "grandma's favourite salami recipe", unless there are nitrites in the recipe.

One of the major concerns for botulism spores is honey. I don't see darren going off his tree at all the honey being sold in stores around the country. Meanwhile, there has NEVER been a case of honey related botulism in Australia, or even being identified

"Honey has been described in the US literature as a source of infection but never implicated in Australia and surveys of Australian honey have failed to identify C. botulinum."

If the concern is the spores, then I won't let infants drink my wort.

http://ideas.health.vic.gov.au/bluebook/botulism.asp


----------



## manticle

Big Nath said:


> i've always found manticle's posts very informative - apart from the one of him having a pull in a mates empty cube.




I don't know where you got that idea from.










It was full.


----------



## seamad

Does that make it a cream ale?


----------



## pk.sax

there was quite a lot of talk about having had had to ditch a lot of cubes in a vic swap brew beer...


----------



## yardy

because victolians can't brew good.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

actually, i think the advice to only store your cubes for a little time might be the opposite of what you should do if you have any concern at all about botulism.

As has been mentioned - if CB was to start growing in your wort, it might possibly produce enough toxin to harm you, before it really started to display obvious signs of infection.

So give it time to breed good and lots and start displaying the signs - the varieties of CB that are common in Australia and which have the sorts of properties that could conceivably survive a no-chill, also produce both copious gas and a foul odour when they infect a food product. Let em have time, hell give it a month or two, and your cube will swell up and stink if its infected. Then you throw it and the cube away. No swell - no infection.

As much as I generally think Darren is a worthless twat - in this he sort of has a point. Botulism is incredibly dangerous, its also incredibly unlikely in a no-chill situation; but if you're stupid and dont do it right, dont clean properly or use a cube thats swelled up.... you make it more likely and you increase your risk of encountering something that you really really never want to bump into.

So - making salami, sausages, canned vegetables, preserved meats AND canned (no-chilled) wort, all carry _some_ risk of poisoning yourself. You need to be aware of that risk (and Darren regularly does us all a favour by reminding us its there) and make sure you do things properly. You wouldn't cure meat without nitrites, you wouldn't can carrots without a pressure canner - and you wouldn't no-chill wort that wasn't boiled for at least an hour, wasn't hopped, was for some reason at a higher than usual pH or put it into a cube that was less than thoroughly clean.

I personally believe, after (thanks to Darren) having spent multiple hours on research & conversations with food scientists and producers, that no-chill (as set out in the guide in the wikki on this site) is safe enough for me to be happy to consume and hand to my loved ones beers made using the technique. I'm happy within myself to show other people how to do it - comfortable that I am not placing anyone at risk.

But - well.... why should you believe me more than Darren? Botulism is extremely uncommon. I imagine that from a statistical point of view, even if infected NC cubes were as common as infected salamis, there probably wouldn't have ever been a reported case of botulism caused by it. And yet people still get killed when the salami factory, or uncle Guido gets it wrong. You feel like being at the head of the queue to be the first case caused by something new?

Its not 100% risk free - but thats not the same thing as saying its dangerous either. Manage that risk. Dont take shortcuts, do take care; and when some imbecile tells you you should ferment and try an NC cube thats swelled up and stinky - FFS ignore them and tip that shit out.


----------



## manticle

If you don't clean your cubes properly then you have more to be concerned about than the very rare (but very real) risk of botulism.

Why wouldn't you clean them and everything else, just for the pure fact of making good beer instead of horrible beer?

By the way: Botulism basteria survive boiling but don't do so well in low pH, sugar rich environs (not sure wort is low enough or sugar rich enough to be devestating). Botulism toxins (the scary bits) don't live through boiling. Can either live through fermentation (I keep reading that there are no human pathogens that can grow in beer)?

I am actually interested in real data rather than Darren's persistent bleating which is never accompanied by actually engaging with the reasonable counterpoints or questions. The closest he got this time was some fairly long drawn bow in regards to STDs.

As for nitrite free sausage - I know your thoughts on this but I regularly consume an old Italian lady's offerings of cacciatore and they are delicious. I make the occasional bit of smallgood related stuff without nitrites but all are either cooked or are cured whole muscle cuts (which I undertsand to be not suceptible to infection). I am interested in salami making and I am interested in additive free but I have held off going there. 

It may be an irrational part of me lumping nitrites in with sulphites though and I don't react well to sulphites. Never had a problem with commercial salami - I just like the idea of adding less rather than more. Might bite the bullet - my family and friends eat my smallgoods too.

Sorry for OT.


----------



## halabut

Alpha acids have a bateriostatic effect against gram-positive bacteria, I'm not sure how mild but a quick bit off googling tells me that hops are the most effective preserving agent in beer. Botulism is unsuprisingly gram-positive.
If you're worried about botulism, the simple solution is to only ever brew IIPAs.


----------



## kieran

lickapop said:


> Well after 20 years of working with certain plastic products with nil problems, over night my system rejected them and I will be hospitalised if I come in contact with them now.
> 
> I wouldn't blink an eyelid if I knew the beer I was drinking was cubed but I personally would not do it every brew for years on end.



Yeah... and it can take 20-40 years to show the effects of smoking too...

If you're ingesting stuff that's been sitting in this..... You want to be pretty sure.


----------



## pyrosx

kieran said:


> Yeah... and it can take 20-40 years to show the effects of smoking too...
> 
> If you're ingesting stuff that's been sitting in this..... You want to be pretty sure.



This plastics-are-scary and VOC stuff is hippy nonsense for normal usage.

There's a damn big difference between the level of exposure involved in the use of a no chill cube, and the prolonged exposure involved in "20 years of working with" those nasty plastics.

Also: What Nick JD said. C2H4. Same stuff people heat up baby formula in to give to the sprogs.


----------



## manticle

kieran said:


> Yeah... and it can take 20-40 years to show the effects of smoking too...
> 
> If you're ingesting stuff that's been sitting in this..... You want to be pretty sure.



Plastic fermenters are made of the same substance and stuff sits in this to get ingested. My take was that people have concern about stuff sitting in this while its hot. HDPE is not necessarily designed as a substance for hot liquid but it is still rated to 110-120 degrees C from memory (which means it probably takes a fair bit more but who wants or needs to risk that?)

The effects of smoking (as an ex smoker I can say this) make themselves apparent every time someone else has a cold or throat infection or they try and run up a flight of stairs. It's just most smokers will happily deny their health suffers. Cancer might come later but there's a bunch of unpleasant crap in between.


----------



## donburke

the people are responding


----------



## Thirsty Boy

manticle said:


> By the way: Botulism basteria survive boiling (no they dont, botulism bacteria die just as easily at boiling as all other bacteria - botulism spores on the other hand are considerably tougher. However, they also dont just "survive" at boiling, they can however survive for longer and a log reduction tKes a lot longer... but boil for long enough and you still kill them all. You're talking considerably longer than a typical boil though. But - it so happens that if you boil them in a lower pH environment... that changes things. An hour long boil at typical wort pH would take a particularly tough and rugged botulism spore to survive) but don't do so well in low pH, sugar rich environs (now this is about the ondidtions required for the spores to germinate) (not sure wort is low enough its not or sugar rich enough its not to be devestating). Botulism toxins (the scary bits) don't live through boiling. which doesn't matter, because the spores can, then they germinate in the wort and then produce the toxins. Can either live through fermentation (I keep reading that there are no human pathogens that can grow in beer and i dont believe there are, but the bacteria grew in wort not beer and the toxins just went along for the ride into your beer)?
> 
> I am actually interested in real data rather than Darren's persistent bleating which is never accompanied by actually engaging with the reasonable counterpoints or questions. The closest he got this time was some fairly long drawn bow in regards to STDs. As i said before, i strongly suspect that Darren could try as much as he liked to provide you with that information and not be able to - given the relatively low number of homebrewers who no-chill - even if no-chill were the ripest botulism growing environment of any of the regular food preserving techniques, its still likely that there simply hasn't been a case yet - doesn't mean that if its actually dangerous there wont be.
> 
> As for nitrite free sausage - I know your thoughts on this but I regularly consume an old Italian lady's offerings of cacciatore and they are delicious. I make the occasional bit of smallgood related stuff without nitrites but all are either cooked or are cured whole muscle cuts (which I undertsand to be not suceptible to infection I dont think thats actually true, might want to double check). I am interested in salami making and I am interested in additive free but I have held off going there. but you know that they could be dangerous and choose to accept the danger - thats different to refusing to hear that there might be a danger in the first place.
> 
> It may be an irrational part of me lumping nitrites in with sulphites though and I don't react well to sulphites. Never had a problem with commercial salami - I just like the idea of adding less rather than more. Might bite the bullet - my family and friends eat my smallgoods too.
> 
> Sorry for OT.


----------



## lickapop

Nick JD said:


> Oh, and this is what polyethylene is made from. About as simple a plastic as is possible to produce.




Im pretty sure they use bisphenol A in the making of cheap ass polyethylene in australia.

A compound that is banned in most other countries in making plastic.

And yeah they use it in baby bottles here in Aus but for those who still are...and not using BPA free baby bottles, here are some "government" warnings about bpa baby bottles.

Do not put boiling or very hot water, infant formula, or other liquids into bottles while preparing them for your child

Before mixing water with powdered infant formula, boil the water and cool it to lukewarm


----------



## lickapop

manticle said:


> Plastic fermenters are made of the same substance and stuff sits in this to get ingested. My take was that people have concern about stuff sitting in this while its hot. HDPE is not necessarily designed as a substance for hot liquid but it is still rated to 110-120 degrees C from memory (which means it probably takes a fair bit more but who wants or needs to risk that?)
> 
> The effects of smoking (as an ex smoker I can say this) make themselves apparent every time someone else has a cold or throat infection or they try and run up a flight of stairs. It's just most smokers will happily deny their health suffers. Cancer might come later but there's a bunch of unpleasant crap in between.




Very true... personally I will not put hot wort in a container that is not manufactured for hot water but I will smoke 30g o White OX every 3 days  
Its funny how nicotine addiction can skew ones logic.


----------



## lickapop

I would NO chill in these any day of the week

Solvent dispensing SS containers... **** yeah

http://www.royalstainless.com/productbrief.htm


----------



## pyrosx

lickapop said:


> Im pretty sure they use bisphenol A in the making of cheap ass polyethylene in australia.
> 
> A compound that is banned in most other countries in making plastic.



This is flat out untrue. Canada is the only country who have banned it completely. The EU and Turkey have stopped it's use in baby bottles. That's it. (reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A )


----------



## stux

pyrosx said:


> This is flat out untrue. Canada is the only country who have banned it completely. The EU and Turkey have stopped it's use in baby bottles. That's it. (reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A )



More so, BPA is not used in HDPE, which is what we're talking about. Afaik its primarily used in PVC and PC plastics, not PET/HDPE

From the Wikipedia BPA link:
"In general, plastics that are marked with recycle codes 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 are very unlikely to contain BPA. Some, but not all, plastics that are marked with recycle codes 3 or 7 may be made with BPA."

Note, HDPE is recycle code 2

BPA is used to make plastics hard and clear... unlike fermenters and cubes which are generally soft and translucent


----------



## manticle

Thanks for the clarification thirsty. I guess what I'm getting at is the journey from spore to toxin to finished beer seems so ridiculously remote, it's like warning people not to step outside in case they run into an escaped lion. Certainly the risk is increased if your equipment is dirty but who doesn't clean their equipment? Mine gets cleaned and sanitised with starsan so the environment inside the cube is hostile to both spores and toxins. I'd also think that if botulism poisoning was possible from contaminated beer, that there would be cases of it. Just because no-chill is relatively recent, surely somewhere, somehow in the history (very long history) of beer making, there'd be a precedent.

I'll double check some of my sausage making books on the muscle cut and botulism. Not academic micro-biology texts but the more recent ones have very strong warnings about the appropriate use of nitrites and the risk of botulism, while acknowledged as rare ,is considered very real and taken very seriously.

I'm having trouble actually finding the books at the moment - one of them is Michael Ruhlman's (Ruhlman and Polcyn) 'Charcuterie' which you may have. His webpage on food safety in curing is here which discusses the safety of cooked meats and whole muscle meats compared to minced. Bacteria can exist on the outside of the meat, just not the inside and because the outside is exposed to the air, they can't germinate. that's my understanding anyway.

http://ruhlman.com/2011/02/meat-curing-safety-issues/

@lickapop: My understanding is that HDPE (type 2) plastics manufactured in Australia do not use BPA in their manufacture. I'd be more concerned about long term storage of beer in PET. I could be wrong but I haven't been able to find info suggesting that HDPE is linked to BPA leeching.


----------



## stux

manticle said:


> I'll double check some of my sausage making books on the muscle cut and botulism. Not academic micro-biology texts but the more recent ones have very strong warnings about the appropriate use of nitrites and the risk of botulism, while acknowledged as rare ,is considered very real and taken very seriously.
> 
> I'm having trouble actually finding the books at the moment - one of them is Michael Ruhlman's (Ruhlman and Polcyn) 'Charcuterie' which you may have. His webpage on food safety in curing is here which discusses the safety of cooked meats and whole muscle meats compared to minced. Bacteria can exist on the outside of the meat, just not the inside and because the outside is exposed to the air, they can't germinate. that's my understanding anyway.



I have "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing", 4th Ed
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Sausage-Recipe...g/dp/0025668609

"_Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing_ is the most comprehensive book available on sausage making and meat curing and has sold more than 500,000 copies worldwide. It is easily understood, contains a wide variety of recipes, and is very effective in helping solve common problems. It is written by a man who learned the art of sausage making and meat curing at a very young age and who made a living smoking and curing meats."

Its quite definitive, and the first chapter is about botulism.

a few choice quotes

"Do not forget this one cardnal rule: *IF IT CAN'T BE CURED, DON'T SMOKE IT.*" (emphasis in original)

(curing is the process of using nitrites to preserve meat, NOT just salting, botulism spores are not desiccated to destruction via salt/osmosis)

"Most nitrite used in curing meat disappears from the product after it has accomplished its curing effects. Within two weeks after curing, the amount of nitrite remaining in a product may be as little as one-fourth the amount initially added to it." 

"Cured meats products typically contain 10-40 PPM nitrite at time of purchase"

"Your mouth and your intenstines manufacture nitrite and there is some evidence that our intenstines' nitrite prevents us from poisoning ourselves with the very food we eat every day, since there is moisture in the stomach, lack of oxygen and correct temperatures for food poisoning."

"a few nitrite containing vegetables, plain old ordinary beets have been found to contain 2,760 PPM of nitrite; celery 1,600 to 2,600 PPM; lettuce 100 to 1,400 PPM; radishes 2,400 to 3000 PPM; potatoes, 120 PPM; and zuchini sqash, 600 PPM. The source for these nitrites comes from nitrogen fertizilizers. It is nitrogen that helps to produce the green color in vegetables and to make them grow faster."

...

Anyway, its a good book. If you're serious about preserving and curing meat, pick up a copy.


----------



## manticle

Cool. Always looking for extras. I'll check on the book depository.


----------



## ForkBoy

I am considering building in a copper immersion chiller into a cube - the chiller would be sealed in with the hot wort, and not removed until ready to pitch some days later. 

Should I have any concerns with leaving copper exposed in wort for several days? Other threads say no problems with copper for immersion chillers & copper boilers, but not sure about an extended exposure.

I'm hoping to get the delayed pitching benefits of no chill, but reduce the bittering effects of late addition hops.


----------



## manticle

I think copper is not good in large amounts for fermentation.

Bit of a discussion here about various metals contacting wort and beer: http://www.byo.com/stories/projects-and-eq...for-homebrewers

The problem seems to be with the corrosion products of copper in an acidic environment.


----------



## lickapop

thanks for the clarification on HDPE not containing BPA.
I had not a chance to fully look into it. You learn something new everyday on here


----------



## MarkBastard

My uncle smokes weed but won't use a microwave.


----------



## manticle

Microwaves make food soggy and horrible. I tend to steer clear of them as well.

Then again I don't smoke weed either.


----------



## going down a hill

Mark^Bastard said:


> My uncle smokes weed but won't use a microwave.


I like his style.


----------



## MarkBastard

To be specific, he thinks microwaved food gives people cancer. That's why he won't use one.


----------



## manticle

Tell him the weed he's smoking has been dried with a microwave.


----------



## RobW

As a microbiologist who took a side turn into IT but still works in a reference lab I follow these botulism flare ups with interest.
In amongst the great mass of uninformed dross there is the occasional nugget of truth.

FWIW my take is that Manticle and TB have it pretty much right between them - ie: an infection is theoretically possible but in practice highly unlikely.

Darren can argue the theoretical until he's blue in the face but will never prove it - the weight of real world evidence points conclusively in the other direction. I believe he knows it too but likes stirring the pot in his charming fashion.

However I do take strong exception to this:

"a massive expansion in HBV and HIV in the heterosexual, non-asian, non-drug using community"

is pure horseshit. The vast majority of HIV, HBV (and HCV - probably more significantly) infections occur in IV drug users and men who have sex with men. Look up the figures.


----------



## JDW81

manticle said:


> Tell him the weed he's smoking has been dried with a microwave.



A mate of mine tried that a few years ago, the house stank for months (he did accidently put it in there for 20 minutes, not 2 as he intended).


----------



## bum

RobW said:


> is pure horseshit. The vast majority of HIV, HBV (and HCV - probably more significantly) infections occur in IV drug users and men who have sex with men. Look up the figures.


I assume your sweeping generalisation (i.e. equine manure) doesn't take Africa into account.


----------



## RobW

Point taken:

The vast majority of HIV, HBV (and HCV - probably more significantly) infections *in this country *occur in IV drug users and men who have sex with men


----------



## manticle

Without willy raincoats of course.

Lesson: Clean and sanitise your cube. Wear a condom when you bum your mate.


----------



## JDW81

manticle said:


> Without willy raincoats of course.
> 
> Lesson: Clean and sanitise your cube. Wear a condom when you bum your mate.



And don't microwave your weed.


----------



## wessmith

Fellas, I think its time to chill...........

Wes


----------



## the_new_darren

RobW said:


> However I do take strong exception to this:
> 
> "a massive expansion in HBV and HIV in the heterosexual, non-asian, non-drug using community"
> 
> is pure horseshit. The vast majority of HIV, HBV (and HCV - probably more significantly) infections occur in IV drug users and men who have sex with men. Look up the figures.



Glad you went into IT, you are better suited there.

FYI, 30% of HIV transmission is in heterosexual community. HBV is distributed evenly between males and females with the asian population "generally" having higher incidence due to mother-to-child transmission.

HCV is most commonly associated with IV drug use, tattoos, and as I mentioned before, pre-HCV testing transfussion. IT IS NOT SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED.

I suspect you should get your facts right and as stated before, it would be safer that you sit behind a computer than in a lab.

FWIW, I work with HBV, HCV and HIV and have done so for 10+ years.

As for CB. I stand by my statement that no-chill certainly increases the chance of contamination. Up until now it would have been rare for wort to have been stored in anaerobic conditions. NC almost certainly fullfils this requirement.

cheers

TND


----------



## ekul

Do you know at what oxygen concentration the bacteria can't get going? I've seen some peoples cubes have an inch of air above the wort.




the_new_darren said:


> As for CB. I stand by my statement that no-chill certainly increases the chance of contamination. Up until now it would have been rare for wort to have been stored in anaerobic conditions. NC almost certainly fullfils this requirement.
> 
> cheers
> 
> TND


----------



## the_new_darren

I gather it is oxygenless. 

I was of the understanding that "squeezing" the air out then sealing were "requirements" of no-chill and storage to stop oxidation.

tnd


----------



## bignath

manticle said:


> Without willy raincoats of course.
> 
> Lesson: Clean and sanitise your cube. Wear a condom when you bum your mate.



Manticle, i've laughed as much from your posts in this thread, as i have learnt from the info in this thread. Certainly bringing a less serious vibe when it's been needed, whilst still being serious when has been required....

You're on fire fella!


----------



## Yob

manticle said:


> Lesson: Clean and sanitise your cube. Wear a condom when you bum your mate.



cleaning monitor, well done :lol:


----------



## ekul

Ideally yes, however to get all that air out is pretty hard, and i'm yet to see one that didn't have at least a little bubble in it. Air gets stuck in the handle when squeezing out the wort and nine times out of ten that air will stay in there. Doesn't seem to have a significant effect on the resultant beer. Thats from my experience and from what i've seen of other guys who cube. Also this is 'cubes', rather than jerry cans. Might be easier to get the air out of the jerry cans.


----------



## manticle

Darren,

I'm going to make an effort to be polite because I'd rather discuss things, adult to adult, in a way that facilitates and furthers knowledge rather than in an antagonistic manner. I find your manner of posting very frustrating but if I give you the benefit of the doubt, I can assume you are concerned for the homebrewing community rather than just trolling, fishing or trying to prick balloons.

Given that you have a reasonable understanding of various microflora (considering your background) what would you estimate the likelihood of botulism toxicity occurring to be, if the no-chill process is followed properly (and by properly I mean with clean cubes, in my preference chemically sanitised)? Theoretically it is a risk yes. I concede that. Do you concede that it is a very, very small risk, unlikely to be borne out in actuality?

NB: Agreeing/conceding doesn't mean you condone the practice or need to accept responsibility if it actually occurs.


----------



## jyo

I have never been able to expel all of the air out of a hot cube. And believe me, I'm a squeezer. 

Are commercially available FWK's completely oxygen free? I think it would be nigh on impossible to get all of the air out without spilling out wort all over your knees or protection boots (thongs) 

Have you never done a no-chill, Darren?


----------



## the_new_darren

manticle said:


> Darren,
> 
> I'm going to make an effort to be polite because I'd rather discuss things, adult to adult, in a way that facilitates and furthers knowledge rather than in an antagonistic manner. I find your manner of posting very frustrating but if I give you the benefit of the doubt, I can assume you are concerned for the homebrewing community rather than just trolling, fishing or trying to prick balloons.
> 
> Given that you have a reasonable understanding of various microflora (considering your background) what would you estimate the likelihood of botulism toxicity occurring to be, if the no-chill process is followed properly (and by properly I mean with clean cubes, in my preference chemically sanitised)? Theoretically it is a risk yes. I concede that. Do you concede that it is a very, very small risk, unlikely to be borne out in actuality?
> 
> NB: Agreeing/conceding doesn't mean you condone the practice or need to accept responsibility if it actually occurs.




Yep, 99% of the time I am shit-stirring. However, having been around several homebrewers over a number of years "sanitation" makes that 1% possibility possible.

Many HBers cannot afford to buy expensive chemical sanitisers and there are also many who are completely lazy/not that worried.

So far I hear that the hypothesis is "it is impossible and cannot happen"

I am proposing the null hypothesis that "it is possible under the correct conditions"

Only time will tell I guess.

Lets hope it doesn't happen....because if it does, it will the perfect opportunity for the government to ban the hobby!!

cheers

the_new_darren

PS: Thanks for the question


----------



## bradsbrew

Wouldn't you get an amount of oxygen into the wort during transfer? And would this amount be enough? You are also never going to squeeze all the air out of a cube, unless it doesnt have a handle.


O/T good on you Darren for working for 10+ years with all those ailments. Oneday you may even find a cure for yourself.


Cheers


----------



## manticle

@TnD

Thankyou for a reasonable answer.

I agree with you that under the right conditions it is theoretically possible. Myself, I would prefer to recommend that people step up their sanitation and cleaning rather than recommend against a practice based on the idea that they are dirty brewers. 

If they are - that issue needs to be addressed before chilling methods. Some home canners and sausage makers are possibly lazy or 'not that worried'. It's not a smart position to take, purely based on the fact that you may make horrible crap, even if you don't get life threatening illnesses.

I think the shit stirring does more harm than good to your cause but I appreciate that you are not simply trolling to get a rise.


----------



## seamad

Starsan 7 c/ L when diluted for use
Wow thats expensive


----------



## the_new_darren

I think drk would be proud of how I have kept this thread alive

Sea Mad, Whats the half-life of strsan diluted in mains water? Chances are it does all its work cleaning up the crap in your lines.

Bradsbrew, Yep there will be a little oxygen transfered. Problem is that the wort is 100C + and solubility at that is zero, therefore in actuality no O2 will be transferred or will be expelled when the cube is "squeezed"

d


----------



## DUANNE

the_new_darren said:


> I think drk would be proud of how I have kept this thread alive
> 
> Sea Mad, Whats the half-life of strsan diluted in mains water? Chances are it does all its work cleaning up the crap in your lines.
> 
> Bradsbrew, Yep there will be a little oxygen transfered. Problem is that the wort is 100C + and solubility at that is zero, therefore in actuality no O2 will be transferred or will be expelled when the cube is "squeezed"
> 
> d




so im guessing that this means that hsa really is a load of crap? thanks tnd for putting my mind at ease and freeing me up to splash my wort around as much as i like when filling my nc cube because i now know it cannot absord any oxygen at boil temps.phew though i might have been doing something wrong to.


----------



## jyo

the_new_darren said:


> Problem is that the wort is 100C + and solubility at that is zero, therefore in actuality no O2 will be transferred or will be expelled when the cube is "squeezed"



I'm not nit-picking, well maybe a little, but the wort will not, ever, be 100'c when entering a cube. There is also some initial splashing involved until the wort is above your transfer hose in the cube. Arguing with conjecture is pointless, mate.
Most people wait until convection settles, then whirlpool, then wait, then transfer to the cube via silicon hose (which will also reduce the temp). I have measured the temp in the kettle during transfer which is above 85'.


----------



## the_new_darren

My experience suggest that VERY LITTLE heat is lost with silicon hoses. They are never hot to touch even when recirculating during the boil.

There will be very little dissolution of 02 at 85C and as I mentioned before, the practice of NC involves removing as much headspace as possible by expelling and sealing the cube.

Really, I couldn't give a Ross's arse whether you do or dont.

Just allowing the non-microbiologists to determine the risks.

cheers

tnd


----------



## jyo

the_new_darren said:


> My experience suggest that VERY LITTLE heat is lost with silicon hoses. They are never hot to touch even when recirculating during the boil.
> 
> tnd



Darren, again, this is just not true. When siphoning 80'+ wort through silicone hose and not using gloves...it is bloody hot.

j_y_o out Infinity.


----------



## RdeVjun

Yes jyo, that's another example of where our own reality and experiences must require a really long good hard look, I'll pay more attention next time and perhaps even note that the really hot sensation in the hands is just a symptom of yet another blasphemous brewing practice for which we are in fact burning in hell.


----------



## stux

The silicon is relatively cold 

Anything else would be sizzling hot. 

You can always hold onto the hose for at least a few seconds when asdjusting your clamps etc


----------



## DUANNE

I lose 4* in the silicon hose between the hlt and mash tun(about half a metre) and my hose does get hot wheni tranfer to the cube at the end of the boil, i must be doing everything completely wrong.


----------



## mckenry

manticle said:


> Without willy raincoats of course.
> 
> Lesson: Clean and sanitise your cube. Wear a condom when you bum your mate.




hahaha - I usually hate the LOL, but this time it is justified.
Classic piece of advice. Could be a line from the Inbetweeners.


----------



## ///

wessmith said:


> Fellas, I think its time to chill...........
> 
> Wes



Agreed - fell like it is the 90's and the HBD all over again. Time to go sit in a corner and rock some ...

Scotty


----------



## wessmith

Hi Scotty,

Reminded me of "S"

Wes


----------



## RobW

This is completely irrelevent to the botulsm argument but just for the sake of clarity.

You can froth at the mouth as much as you want Darren but I don't intend to drop to your level of personal insult.

Final comment on this.



the_new_darren said:


> FYI, 30% of HIV transmission is in heterosexual community.
> 
> *HIV transmission in Australia occurs primarily through sexual contact between men. Around 65% of people newly diagnosed with HIV in 2009 were among **men who have sex with men**; 28.7% were exposed through heterosexual contact; 2.3% were due to **injecting drug use**; and a further 3% were men with a history of both injecting drug use and sex with other men.*
> 
> http://www.avert.org/aids-hiv-australia.htm
> 
> *70%+ isn't the vast majority then?
> *
> 
> HBV is distributed evenly between males and females with the asian population "generally" having higher incidence due to mother-to-child transmission.
> 
> HCV is most commonly associated with IV drug use, tattoos, and as I mentioned before, pre-HCV testing transfussion. IT IS NOT SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED.
> 
> *I never said it was.**Based on reported cases, hepatitis B and hepatitis C transmission in Australia continued to occur predominantly among people with a recent history of injecting drug use.*
> 
> http://www.med.unsw.edu.au/NCHECRweb.nsf/r...reports2011.pdf



Out


----------



## Rina

So no chill causes AIDS?


----------



## Bongchitis

yep!


----------



## bignath

Rina said:


> So no chill causes AIDS?



yeah, and heaps, and heaps of other nasty shit...

NO CHILL IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL!















which must make me satan.


----------



## the_new_darren

RobW said:


> This is completely irrelevent to the botulsm argument but just for the sake of clarity.
> 
> You can froth at the mouth as much as you want Darren but I don't intend to drop to your level of personal insult.
> 
> Final comment on this.
> 
> 
> 
> Out
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that what I said? 30% hetrosexual transmittion of HIV is significantly high!!
> 
> As to what it has to do with botulism, Hep C and HIV were only discovered as disease causing pathogens in the mid-1980's. Prior to that (one hundred years) blood transfusions were performed routinely and were classed as safe.
> 
> The "recent" emergence of no-chill might suggests that it may have not been around long enough for that rare event to occur.


----------



## Batz

Guys there's 15 pages and over 200 posts in this thread, mostly it has been on topic and quite interesting, please lets not let it run off like so many others.


Batz


----------



## kieran

Darren, I'm a Molecular Biologist (Ph.D. in Biochemistry & Cell Biology) by trade.. but with no official microbiology major (other than being a Molecular Biologist and using various forms of E.coli and S.cerevisiae as my work tools). I wonder if you can help flesh out the Botulism point further -- not just from a NC perspective..

#1 Prevalence - is it out there, are we likely to encounter it here in Australia?



"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum" said:


> Clostridium botulinum type A was found to be present in soil samples from mountain areas of Victoria.[22] Type B organisms were detected in marine mud from Tasmania.[23] Type A C. botulinum have been found in Sydney suburbs and types A and B were isolated from urban areas. In a well defined area of the Darling-Downs region of Queensland, a study showed the prevalence and persistence of C. botulinum type B after many cases of botulism in horses.


Sounds to me like it's soil borne on land and at sea.

#2 How can we minimise exposure to it, so it doesn't come into contact with our brew gear?
Don't brew on dirt or in the ocean. Keep dogs away... keep your brew area rodent-proof. 

#3 How can we destroy it?
As far as I can tell, the only way to kill them is by Autoclave for 20min @ 121C.. 
I've emailed Five Star Chemical Co. to clarify, but I don't think any of their products will be active against Clostridium botulinum endospores. But I'll wait and see what they have to say about that. 

#4 What situations in a brew house could anaerobic conditions be produced.
Wikipedia tells me that C.b. is isolated from samples with <2% O2. Does NoChill get O2 down to <2%? Could a blast of filtered air put enough O2 into NC wort to stave off any C.b. infection *and* avoid hot side aeration? What about fermenting wort? What is the % oxygen in a fermenting wort once fermentation has ceased?

#5 What regular practices in brewing would destroy it or inhibit its growth?
Obviously aeration of the chilled wort prior to fermentation will help, providing a significant infection/sporulation hasn't already happened.

I see this on Wikipedia, which has me wondering if we have little to be concerned about, but it is not referenced:



"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum" said:


> Growth of the bacterium can be prevented by high acidity, high ratio of dissolved sugar, high levels of oxygen, very low levels of moisture or storage at temperatures below 3C (38F) for type A. For example in a low acid, canned vegetable such as green beans that are not heated hot enough to kill the spores (i.e., a pressurized environment) may provide an oxygen free medium for the spores to grow and produce the toxin. On the other hand, pickles are sufficiently acidic to prevent growth; even if the spores are present, they pose no danger to the consumer. Honey, corn syrup, and other sweeteners may contain spores but the spores cannot grow in a highly concentrated sugar solution; however, when a sweetener is diluted in the low oxygen, low acid digestive system of an infant, the spores can grow and produce toxin. As soon as infants begin eating solid food, the digestive juices become too acidic for the bacterium to grow.



NC and Chilled worts are high in sugar but without a reference from that Wikipedia entry for the above statement, I don't know what "highly concentrated sugar solution" actually means. That might be enough to inhibit growth, which would certainly help me sleep better at night because disinfecting it at home, sounds like an impossible mission.

Cheers for any additional insights..


----------



## stux

There is also a patent floating around about hop's preservative qualities being effective against CB


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Seeing as the thread is remaining on its topic, Darren has discovered a new lease on reasonable response and some things that I think are genuinely useful are being talked about:

One thing Darren and others may not have considered is that HDPE is in fact far from impervious to oxygen transmission, and becomes drastically less so at higher temperatures.

So while its at 100C and its certainly not retaining any dissolved oxygen, there's also no chance any spores are germinating at that temp either - but as it cools it will start to absorb oxygen, so while its certainly going to be a lower oxygen environment than an open container - its not at all likely to be anything close to actually anerobic.

The levels of oxygen themselves during the really dangerous "warm" phase are (i crunched the gas transmission rate numbers one time when i was properly bored, and no I dont have the figures, lost in a hard drive crash and I'm not doing it again) not in and of themselves likely to be so high as to completely rule out germination and growth of CB, and certainly its possible there might be pockets of unmixed wort that constitute anerobic micro environments, but they do present another significant hurdle to infection and the levels will rise with time.

Because of the high permeability of hot HDPE to oxygen - squeezing out the excess air in the top of a cube/jerry is simply about _limiting_ hot wort oxidation in the only real fashion its controllable in the situation, it's not about eliminating it which is pretty much impossible, it's just about trying to shift as much of it as possible to times where the wort is cool enough to minmise the damage - and its not about dissolved oxygen at all.

A few of the recent comments in this thread that mention HSA etc seem to misunderstand the difference between oxidation and oygenation in wort.


----------



## RobW

The difference between no chill and conventional brewing aswe all know is that with no chill the boiled wort is allowed to cool slowlyunder (hopefully) sanitised conditions and then fermented later. The hypothetical botulism problem could ariseif the wort and/or the container is contaminated with _C. botulinum_ spores andthese grow into vegetative forms (bacteria) which then produce toxin in theanaerobic environment.

What follows is an excerpt from BYO ("http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/30-extract-brewing/418-can-botulism-spores-grow-in-concentrated-extract-with-its-high-sugar-content") that addresses why this doesn't happen in liquid malt extract.

*" lets discuss why brewers do not need to spend any time at all worrying about the growth of Clostridium botulinum in the malt extract. Malt extract, whether liquid or dry, is concentrated by removing water. One key attribute of food products used togauge their susceptibility to spoilage is a property known as water activity or AW. Pure water has a water activity of 1.0 and as solids content increases the AW decreases. The definition of AW is not important here, but relates to equilibrium relative humidity. If you want to read more there is a bunch ofinformation about water activity online and in food science books.

At any rate, Clostridium botulinum is not a problem in foods with an AW less than 0.93 because it doesnt grow. The water activity of liquid malt extract (LME) is somewhere around 0.60 depending on its concentration. Honey has an AW between 0.55 and0.60, so it stands to reason that liquid malt extract with a similar concentration is going to be in the same range. Dried malt extract has an AW ofabout 0.20 making it very shelf stable from a microbiological view. You arecorrect that liquid malt extract is not pressure canned because there is nosafety concern requiring it to be."
*
Now I've been unable to find what the AW of unfermented wort is (still looking though and I'd also like to know the reference for the 0.93 value but its not stated), however looking at the figures quoted above it maybe reasonable to assume it is less than 0.93.

If thats the case we could have an answer.



edit: cleaned up embedded formatting


----------



## argon

RobW said:


> Now I've been unable to find what the AW of unfermented wort is (still looking though and I'd also like to know the reference for the 0.93 value but its not stated), however looking at the figures quoted above it maybe reasonable to assume it is less than 0.93.
> 
> If thats the case we could have an answer.
> 
> 
> 
> edit: cleaned up embedded formatting



Should be able to work it out with info provided here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity


----------



## RobW

argon said:


> Should be able to work it out with info provided here
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity



Don't have time to do the maths right now but I did notice the _C. botulinum_ AW figure that article quotes is 0.97 not 0.93.


----------



## black_labb

argon said:


> Should be able to work it out with info provided here
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity




going by the wikipedia based info Clostridium botulinum is inhibited from 0.97, not the 0.93 RobW stated. Where did you get that figure from RobW? was it a typo or was it some other (possibly better) source. It didn't have a SW rating for wort but fruit juice is 0.97. If my memory is correct fruit juices have around 8-20% sugar. wort is usually atleast 10% sugar I'd assume. Not sure how to use the formula but with some more research I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard. 

It sounds like the Combination of hops, acidity, sugary solution (related to the water activity), presence of some oxygen and heat should work together to keep things under control even if you chuck a bit of dirt into your mash for some earthy flavours.


edit: beatn'


----------



## bradsbrew

@ Darren are you able to, within your work environment, get the CB to grow, or test levels if introduced, in a cube that is filled with hot wort in a simulated Hbrewer environment? If so that would be a great experiment.

Please forgive my stupidness if this is not possible. I am a construction training manager not a scientist. This thread has turned into a good read.


Cheers


----------



## donburke

bradsbrew said:


> @ Darren are you able to, within your work environment, get the CB to grow, or test levels if introduced, in a cube that is filled with hot wort in a simulated Hbrewer environment? If so that would be a great experiment.
> 
> Please forgive my stupidness if this is not possible. I am a construction training manager not a scientist. This thread has turned into a good read.
> 
> 
> Cheers



bags not being in the case swap


----------



## kieran

http://www.vitis-vea.de/admin/volltext/e045205.pdf



> Yeasts were more resistant than bacteria. Most yeasts grow at _Aw_ between 0.96 and 0.88.



.. yeah, so if yeast won't ferment below 0.88, then we know that a ready-to-brew wort must be a minimum of 0.88.


----------



## kieran

black_labb said:


> not the 0.93 RobW stated. Where did you get that figure from RobW?



The article says 0.93 right here.


----------



## Feldon

My understanding is that the single-celled organism _Clostridium botulinum _that causes botulism poisoning is itself harmless. It is the toxic chemical this bug produces that is dangerous (have seen it described as "the most lethal toxin known to man"). The toxin is a waste product that is produced by _Clostridium botulinum _during its normal functioning in oxygen-deprived (anaerobic) environments - much like a yeast cell happily produces CO2 and alcohol as waste product in the normal coursse of its life.

According to a referenced article in Wikipedia, _Clostridium botulinum _ is commonly found about the home. If ingested by a non-infant the acidic conditions of the gut prevent the bug from functioning - so no toxins are produced. However, kids under 1 year old have not yet developed their full digestive juices so they can die if they ingest the bug).

The botulism toxin is destroyed above 60 degrees C, but the spores of _Clostridium botulinum _ can survive boiling, and if they do and they later arive in conditions (such as temp. pH, etc.) that are favorable, they can start growing and reproducing and in doing so will produce more of the toxin as a waste product. 

I thought this picture might help show where in the brewing proccess the likilhood of botulism contamination would occur in the No Chill method (if it is likely at all). Remember the wort might be free of _Clostridium botulinum _and its spores coming out of the wort boil, but if spores exists in a dirty cube container they might survive (?) to grow and reproduce as the wort slowly cools to morre ideal temperatures).





(Pic sourced from G. Menz. P. Aldred, & F. Vrieskroop, 'Pathogens in Beer', in V.R. Preedy (ed.), _Beer in Health and Disease Prevention_, Academic Press (London, 2009), p.407 - the coloured graphical additions are mine. Book is available by online by searching Google Books).


----------



## Batz

OK worst case scenario, clostridium botulinum does take a hold in my cube.

Now will the cube swell up like other infections? and how long that would take?

Thanks to all the informed for the positive posts.

Batz


----------



## kieran

I'd like to see the same pic, but drawn for Endospores. They just jump over all those hurdles like Steve Hooker.


----------



## Feldon

bradsbrew said:


> @ Darren are you able to, within your work environment, get the CB to grow, or test levels if introduced, in a cube that is filled with hot wort in a simulated Hbrewer environment? If so that would be a great experiment.



Good idea but need to be careful. Some authorities might look on cultivating lethal toxins outside of approved programs as something linked to bio-terrorism .


----------



## Thirsty Boy

kieran said:


> I'd like to see the same pic, but drawn for Endospores. They just jump over all those hurdles like Steve Hooker.



yep, but endospores dont produce any toxin - they have to germinate and grow first. Thats when the hurdles count.


----------



## kieran

Batz said:


> Now will the cube swell up like other infections? and how long that would take?



The nail on the head question.... it is actually killed by CO2, so it isn't producing that. Cant

... BUT it does this to pasterised milk seeded with Clostridium botulinum:
Milk stored at 21 degrees C curdled and exhibited a yogurt-like odor at 2 days and was putrid at 4 days.


----------



## kieran

Thirsty Boy said:


> yep, but endospores dont produce any toxin - they have to germinate and grow first. Thats when the hurdles count.



Not sure if you've missed it. Germination will not happen unless there's an anaerobic environment that's sensed by the spore (the bacterium with a capsule around it). Now if the spore isn't killed by boiling, by sanitisation, by pH, by those hurdles... and that spore ends up in your oxygen-deprived, non-fermenting NC wort. Then the Go switch flicks on, and its off to infectionland we go, and toxins are produced. 500g of which can kill half the human population.
Anyway, from the discussion here, it seems that Aw and maybe Hops are the two things that might have a nullifying effect in a NC "anaerobic" environment, they're in the NC wort, and perhaps the only things that'd stop said spore going postal.


----------



## Nick JD

Feldon said:


> Good idea but need to be careful. Some authorities might look on cultivating lethal toxins outside of approved programs as something linked to bio-terrorism .



Nicole Kidman's forehead is a bioterrorism zone?  People get botulinum toxin injected into their face.


----------



## stux

black_labb said:


> going by the wikipedia based info Clostridium botulinum is inhibited from 0.97, not the 0.93 RobW stated. Where did you get that figure from RobW? was it a typo or was it some other (possibly better) source. It didn't have a SW rating for wort but fruit juice is 0.97. If my memory is correct fruit juices have around 8-20% sugar. wort is usually atleast 10% sugar I'd assume. Not sure how to use the formula but with some more research I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard.
> 
> It sounds like the Combination of hops, acidity, sugary solution (related to the water activity), presence of some oxygen and heat should work together to keep things under control even if you chuck a bit of dirt into your mash for some earthy flavours.
> 
> 
> edit: beatn'



My hydrometer says that Apple Juice was about 1.060 iirc


according to the wiki article, 

Juice	0.97

Wort would certainly be around there... unless its a barley wine!


----------



## Feldon

Nick JD said:


> Nicole Kidman's forehead is a bioterrorism zone?  People get botulinum toxin injected into their face.



Using the toxin is a completely different thing to producing it.


----------



## the_new_darren

bradsbrew said:


> @ Darren are you able to, within your work environment, get the CB to grow, or test levels if introduced, in a cube that is filled with hot wort in a simulated Hbrewer environment? If so that would be a great experiment.
> 
> Please forgive my stupidness if this is not possible. I am a construction training manager not a scientist. This thread has turned into a good read.
> 
> 
> Cheers




Bradsbrew,

Just need to find some time and jump all the ethical hoops but you read my dreams (well thoughts before sleep).

I just need to check the containment requirements (anyone have the microbiological standards on hand?? PC1, PC2?

d


----------



## Nick JD

Feldon said:


> Using the toxin is a completely different thing to producing it.



So detonating a dirty bomb is okay, but refining uranium isn't?


----------



## Feldon

Nick JD said:


> So detonating a dirty bomb is okay, but refining uranium isn't?



You're right you know. Must be heaps of labs around the world growing the botulism bug for use in cosmetic applications. Who are they? And what controls are there? 

Sorry everyone, but this is :icon_offtopic:


----------



## Nick JD

Feldon said:


> You're right you know. Must be heaps of labs around the world growing the botulism bug for use in cosmetic applications. Who are they? And what controls are there?
> 
> Sorry everyone, but this is :icon_offtopic:



Not really off topic. I'm really interested to see if anyone can culture up some botulinum toxin in wort. 

Can't see it being a big issue. And if it is - Darren won't be posting anymore unless they have internet access in Guantanamo.


----------



## kieran

the_new_darren said:


> I just need to check the containment requirements (anyone have the microbiological standards on hand?? PC1, PC2?
> 
> d



PC2 to be sure. You'll also need special approvals as it's a restricted Tier2 biosafety agent on the "Security Sensitive Biological Agents" list here.

Looks like the hoops you've got to jump through are pretty significant.. although your dept might be able to deal with any requirements if you've got existing licensed dealings for other bugs other groups are using.

Including a $101 fee for a background check to prove you're not a terrorist.


> This amendement is to incorporate recently announced fee increases by AusChecks checking partners ASIO and CrimTrac.


Terrorists have a lot to answer for.. .. bastards.

http://www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/staff/...calegenetic.pdf {this is waaay old with references to the old GMAC, but still gives an idea for containment}


----------



## the_new_darren

Yeah, I have the containment approvals. Growing HCV, HBV, HIV Influenza all require PC2 and IBC/OGTR approval usually

Im willing to give it a go but unfortunately, I cannot measure hop concentrations.

It would be nice if someone like Dr. Smurto could also jump on board.

Could be a nice paper if it grows. A dud if it doesn't.

But hey, thats science.

tnd


----------



## bradsbrew

the_new_darren said:


> Yeah, I have the containment approvals. Growing HCV, HBV, HIV Influenza all require PC2 and IBC/OGTR approval usually
> 
> Im willing to give it a go but unfortunately, I cannot measure hop concentrations.
> 
> It would be nice if someone like Dr. Smurto could also jump on board.
> 
> Could be a nice paper if it grows. A dud if it doesn't.
> 
> But hey, thats science.
> 
> tnd



Darren, I probably don't need to suggest it but how many "cubes" would you have. Would you have a 3 or so? So you can cover a few scenario's or would this not be needed.

And if you need some grain to be donated for the experiment, I know a supplier.....................sorry that was not called for under the circumstances but I could not help myself  

Cheers


----------



## jyo

Darren, if you have the means to conduct this study there will be many, myself included, watching with interest. It would be very interesting regardless of the outcome.

Cheers.


----------



## ///

wessmith said:


> Hi Scotty,
> 
> Reminded me of "S"
> 
> Wes



Come on Wes, you know you want to say it out loud....

Scotty


----------



## kieran

the_new_darren said:


> Yeah, I have the containment approvals. Growing HCV, HBV, HIV Influenza all require PC2 and IBC/OGTR approval usually
> 
> Im willing to give it a go but unfortunately, I cannot measure hop concentrations.
> 
> It would be nice if someone like Dr. Smurto could also jump on board.



HPLC yeah?

It'd be nice if we could take the purified fractions and test them individually to determine the active component(s).

http://www.czhops.cz/tc/pdf/bioactive.pdf


Actually, someone here said that a patent has been awarded for something about this. If that's true, we should be able to access the patent to find the active component. You can probably just determine conc of that by HPLC.



the_new_darren said:


> But hey, thats science.



Yeah.. It shits you sometimes, doesn't it? Let's hope, if this were to eventuate, that all your positive controls play ball. Consistently.


----------



## Nick JD

Who's the guru on experiemental design? 

I'd look into pH; sugarz; hop compounds; and O2. 

Otherwise you'd only learn that "wort" is/isn't capable of putting CB under its thumb. Won't tell you much.


----------



## the_new_darren

Nick,

pH. sugar are easy.

I am trying to avoid the Mr. Obvious of hop concentration.

Frankly I dont give the proverbial flying fcuk as to which hop "bitters" the beer.

Not doing this myself, so if no-one comes on board then it a no-goer.

We will have to live with just collective opinion, (and my conjunctive)  

darren


----------



## Dazza88

Don't brew beer in prison

http://foodct.com/2011/10/10/utah-inmates-...on-brewed-beer/


----------



## unrealeous

Batz said:


> OK worst case scenario, clostridium botulinum does take a hold in my cube.
> 
> Now will the cube swell up like other infections? and how long that would take?


Good question Batz - i did a bit of research a while ago - and came across a couple of things.

Firstly - it would appear that your cube will swell. How long it takes I have no idea - probably depends on the growing conditions. The amount of swelling might give an indication of just how much of the toxin has been produced...

From wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism
Metal cans containing food in which bacteria, possibly botulinum, are growing may bulge outwards due to gas production from bacterial growth; such cans should be discarded. 

This lead to another question - Would the fermentation process and subsequent alcohol production negate the botulism poisoning... and it appears the answer is no. A recent example in the news might illustrate
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stori...kIkxIURU6Q.cspx

So rule of thumb - if your cube swells - discard it. Unless you want to ask yourself "Do I feel lucky?"

Well, do ya, punk?


----------



## dr K

If your cube swells its most likely yeast (wild or otherwise) or some other wort loving dude of the sort often found in beer, like acetobacter, lactobacillus or pediococcus, your ber is still lawn mowered, just not deadly ! Yes I know about oxygen but as TB correctly points out the standard HDPE used in food safe containers (cubes) are very porous to oxygen, if I could quicly lay my hand on Wild Brews I could tell you how much .
Like I said, cubes do not (well perhaps "have not been shown to" is a better expression) cause botullism.
K


----------



## the_new_darren

unrealeous said:


> Good question Batz - i did a bit of research a while ago - and came across a couple of things.
> 
> Firstly - it would appear that your cube will swell. How long it takes I have no idea - probably depends on the growing conditions. The amount of swelling might give an indication of just how much of the toxin has been produced...
> 
> From wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism
> Metal cans containing food in which bacteria, possibly botulinum, are growing may bulge outwards due to gas production from bacterial growth; such cans should be discarded.
> 
> This lead to another question - Would the fermentation process and subsequent alcohol production negate the botulism poisoning... and it appears the answer is no. A recent example in the news might illustrate
> http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stori...kIkxIURU6Q.cspx
> 
> So rule of thumb - if your cube swells - discard it. Unless you want to ask yourself "Do I feel lucky?"
> 
> Well, do ya, punk?




Nice post unrealous,

Same goes with a mosquito bite or even a cough on a train or even no-chill.

tnd


----------



## stux

bradsbrew said:


> Darren, I probably don't need to suggest it but how many "cubes" would you have. Would you have a 3 or so? So you can cover a few scenario's or would this not be needed.
> 
> And if you need some grain to be donated for the experiment, I know a supplier.....................sorry that was not called for under the circumstances but I could not help myself
> 
> Cheers



You could just pickup a few craftbrewer cubes


----------



## Kai

I see this thread has taken a turn for the awesome. I like it.


----------



## manticle

Quite like it myself. Hope something concrete develops.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

kieran said:


> Not sure if you've missed it. Germination will not happen unless there's an anaerobic environment that's sensed by the spore (the bacterium with a capsule around it). Now if the spore isn't killed by boiling, by sanitisation, by pH, by those hurdles... and that spore ends up in your oxygen-deprived, non-fermenting NC wort. Then the Go switch flicks on, and its off to infectionland we go, and toxins are produced. 500g of which can kill half the human population.
> Anyway, from the discussion here, it seems that Aw and maybe Hops are the two things that might have a nullifying effect in a NC "anaerobic" environment, they're in the NC wort, and perhaps the only things that'd stop said spore going postal.



no, didn't miss it - In fact I was under the impression that I'd ben posting about just that for a few pages worth of this thread now.

You talked about the spores easily going over the hurdles to infection - but they dont. They themselves might not actually be killed by many of those hurdles, but then again, the spores themselves are completely harmless. Its only when, as you and a bunch of other people have pointed out, they germinate that they begin to metabolize, grow and produce toxins. Thats what the hurdles are about - they represent the barriers to the germination, metabolism and growth of the bacteria and they exist in the _post_ boil wort, which may or may not contain spores that have not been killed by the previous adverse conditions. So the hurdles are in fact perfectly relevant, because at the time it matters, we are talking about bacteria, not about spores.

Most of the hurdles are however, marginal - they flirt with the edges of CB's ability to start and run, enough to inhibit it, perhaps severely, but not enough to necessarily stop it in its tracks. None of them, Low starting spore count, AW, pH, Dissolved Oxygen - individually present a sure fire barrier to the infection (with the possible exception of the hop beta acids) but they represent a series of partial barriers who's cumulative and possibly synergistic actions make it extremely unlikely that an infection could take hold. Not impossible - just extremely unlikely.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Darren

I can do iso alpha acid tests - its not a direct measurement of the components that inhibit CB (I believe its certain of the beta acids) but it might give you implied or comparative concentrations.

I doubt that would be good enough - but I'm happy to run the tests if it helps make the experiement fly. Mind you all I can personally offer is an iso-octane extraction through a spectrophotometer.... although if it comes to it I could perhaps spread a bit of homebrew largess amongst the lab bodies around here - someone will have a HPLC machine that I can convince them to weild in the name of the cause.

If you can tell me what we'd need to test for - I'll try to find out if we can test for it.


----------



## RobW

Seems to me the first thing to do is calculate the AW of wort (and if the gravity significantly alters the AW - does a double APA have a lower AW han a mild?)

I had a look at the maths and its out of my league though somebody else may be able to figure it out.

However there are 2 other ways to measure AW:

Capacitance hygrometers & Dew point hygrometers

Capacitance hygrometersCapacitance hygrometers consist of two charged plates separated by a polymer membrane dielectric. As the membrane adsorbs water, its ability to hold a charge increases and the capacitance is measured. This value is roughly proportional to the water activity as determined by a sensor-specific calibration.

Capacitance hygrometers are not affected by most volatile chemicals and can be much smaller than other alternative sensors. They do not require cleaning, but are less accurate than dew point hygrometers (+/- .015 aw). They should have regular calibration checks and can be affected by residual water in the polymer membrane (hysteresis). Dew point hygrometers

Dew point hygrometers
The temperature at which dew forms on a clean surface is directly related to the vapor pressure of the air. Dew point hygrometers work by placing a mirror over a closed sample chamber. The mirror is cooled until the dew point temperature is measured by means of an optical sensor. This temperature is then used to find the relative humidity of the chamber using psychrometric charts.

This method is theoretically the most accurate (+/- .003 aw) and often the fastest.

I don't have access to either of these but I do have a mate who owns an ananalytical food lab and he might - I'm seeing him tonight and I'll pick his brain.


----------



## kieran

Thirsty Boy said:


> no, didn't miss it



we're talking about the same thing. if we could sit and chat face to face for 20 seconds, we'd work that out. its a minor point that I'm making that in all the "hurdle" stages are in an aerobic environment, so no bacteria will be active anyway (atleast from Cb's perspective -- there'll be others of course where they do a fine job of killing off other bugs such as e.coli.). So, really, the only concern is spores getting through here.. and they will. Once they're in the potentially anaerobic NC environment, can they become active, make toxin and sporulate?
That's the point we're at.. as you say with Aw, dissolved oxygen, hop products. Do they present an adverse environment? I'm starting to think they do, but the reason for this (my) interest, is that nobody really has published anything solid to shows they (any of them) does [at least from the lit searches I've done].

RobW: I provided a reference earlier in this thread that suggested that yeast is inactive in a solution of Aw <0.88. So we could assume that if the wort is able to support pitched yeast growth, then its Aw is likely somewhere around 0.88. BYO's article states that Cb's limit is Aw <0.93. I don't know how different (in reality) a 0.88 solution is from a 0.93 solution.


----------



## levin_ae92

You lot should publish this as a scientific article


----------



## bcp

levin_ae92 said:


> You lot should publish this as a scientific article


It would take too long to edit out all the logical fallacies in the first 80%.


----------



## RobW

kieran said:


> RobW: I provided a reference earlier in this thread that suggested that yeast is inactive in a solution of Aw <0.88. So we could assume that if the wort is able to support pitched yeast growth, then its Aw is likely somewhere around 0.88. BYO's article states that Cb's limit is Aw <0.93. I don't know how different (in reality) a 0.88 solution is from a 0.93 solution.



Kieran: I think we can say that if wort supports yeast growth its AW is greater than 0.88 but not how much.
I'd like to have a definitive value for the C. botulinum inhibition AW since the BYO article quotes 0.93 and the Wikipedia article says 0.97. That should be simple to get from a food tech book.


----------



## argon

RobW said:


> Kieran: I think we can say that if wort supports yeast growth its AW is greater than 0.88 but not how much.
> I'd like to have a definitive value for the C. botulinum inhibition AW since the BYO article quotes 0.93 and the Wikipedia article says 0.97. That should be simple to get from a food tech book.



Csiro also says .93 



CSIRO said:


> CSIRO Aw
> We also know that Clostridium botulinum, the most dangerous food poisoning bacterium, is unable to grow at an aw of 0.93 and below.
> 
> The risk of food poisoning must be considered in low acid foods (pH > 4.5) with a water activity greater than 0.86 aw.


----------



## kieran

dr K said:


> standard HDPE used in food safe containers (cubes) are very porous to oxygen, if I could quicly lay my hand on Wild Brews I could tell you how much .



Would be nice to see what the dissolved O2 concentration in wort was post-boil, then as a function of time in HDPE.. 

Got no idea what these HDPE tanks are: http://www.foodinnova.com/foodInnova/docu2/322.pdf
but they are porous to the tune of 2.15mg/L per month or 0.000215% w/v per month (this could be a different density HDPE I guess). But that is under 2% O2 which (from what I can tell) is the upper restricted limit for Cb spores to activate. I would've thought that the dissolved O2 in the post-boil wort going into a cube would've been much higher than that porous diffusion? Again, perhaps this is some 'special' wine aging HDPE plastic which isn't as permeable as the food safe container cubes. Would like to see what "Wild Brews" says.


----------



## RobW

Just found this (http://www.nelfood.com/help/library/nelfood-kb02.pdf):

C. botulinum AW values

Type A 0.95 Type B 0.94 

Type E 0.97

These seem to be the 3 common human pathogenic strains - it appears that an AW below 0.97 would inhibit them all.

It also says this value is obtaind using salt and may vary for other solutes.


----------



## stux

RobW said:


> Just found this (http://www.nelfood.com/help/library/nelfood-kb02.pdf):
> 
> C. botulinum AW values
> 
> Type A 0.95 Type B 0.94
> 
> Type E 0.97
> 
> These seem to be the 3 common human pathogenic strains - it appears that an AW below 0.97 would inhibit them all.
> 
> It also says this value is obtaind using salt and may vary for other solutes.



I'm reading that as a value below 0.94 would inhibit them all, ie the CSIRO's 0.93

What am I missing?


----------



## RobW

Yeah you're right - my bad.


----------



## Feldon

Found some evidence that _Clostridium botulinum _spores can survive the mashing proccess and can be present in the spent mash grain. 

(and by extrapolation spores would also be present in the wort ?).




(Sourced from: S. Notermans _et al_, 'Safety and traceability of animal feeds', in Michele Lees (ed.), Food Authenticity and Traceability, Woodhead Publishing (Cambridge U.K., 2003), p.526 - available online via Google Books)

I'm thinking that a good practice when disposing of spent mash grain might be to spread it out on the ground so that the air can get to it. If dumped in a heap on the ground, the air in the core of the heap would soon be scavenged of oxygen by aerobic bacteria thereby creating an anaerobic (oxygen depleted) micro environment - the right conditions for the spores to become active and produce their toxin. 

Maybe more important if you feed spent grain to the chooks. Whatever, _Clostridium botulinum _can already be present in your soil, but you don't want to encourage its further the colonisation around the brew shed and home.


----------



## kieran

Guys, I think this might help:

http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/6251461.html



> Antimicrobial Activity of Hops Extract against Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile and Helicobacter pylori.
> E.A. JOHNSON, and G.J. HAAS, S. S. STEINER, INC. (NEW YORK, NY) (United States Patent 6,251,461, June, 2001)
> 
> The present invention relates to the discovery that hop extract is useful as an antibacterial agent against the dangerous pathogens Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and Helicobacter pylori at levels below that at which a flavour from the acids contained therein is objectionable. More specifically, a process and associated product is described herein, comprising applying a solution of hop extract to a food, beverage or other medium so that the final concentration of hop ingredients is about 1 ppm or higher in order to inhibit the growth of Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and/or Helicobacter pylori.



TFA has all the details... i can't access the patent figures.

I guess the take home is:


> The hop extracts as used herein may comprise solvent extracted hops, or liquid CO2 or supercritical CO2 gas extracted hops. Particularly preferred are CO2 liquid or CO2 critical gas extracts. Generally, the hop extracts are added to a food product or other vehicle, in solution, to achieve at least about one part per million, by weight, of beta acids in the GI tract or stomach. Amounts less than about 1 ppm, by weight, beta acids, does not appear to provide protection against Clostridium botulinum and Clostridium difficile. The solution preferably contains about 5 ppm-100 ppm, by weight, of beta acids. The upper level is dictated by taste and solubility.



I suspect the patent is pitched at non-brewing food-stuff preservation.. 

Beta acids at the end of the boil in the wort, yeah.. lots and lots and lots? They aren't isomerised, and you can certainly smell them. Going by the patent's assertion that ~5ppm isn't detectable by the human nose, so if it smells hoppy, it must be over 5ppm. 

If so, that might be it. How do you others read it?


----------



## Nick JD

Case closed.


----------



## Dazza88

When is IBU level detectable?

1 IBU provides sufficient protection?


----------



## RobW

Nice get. It would be good to see the original work they based the patent on.
I had a quick look but can't turn it up.


----------



## stux

> The present invention relates to the discovery that hop extract is useful as an antibacterial agent against the dangerous pathogens Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and Helicobacter pylori at levels below that at which a flavour from the acids contained therein is objectionable



So, if you can taste/smell hoppiness, no matter how minor, then its CB proof.

Oh Goody.

And now you know why by law in some states "Beer" *must* contain hops.

Always use hopped wort in your cubes 

Now... just for the sake of argument... 5ppm as a minimum... is there a relationship between IBUs and ppm Beta Acids?

Of so, can we say that a beer of x IBUs is safe from botulism?


----------



## Bongchitis

You guys are pretty ******* awesome I must say!


----------



## Dazza88

Low hopped wort is the issue because some no chill beers may be hopped low, cubed and then later additions are added in a miniboil. I reckon 10 IBU is detectable at least but where is the IBU threshold.


----------



## dr K

Less than two weeks ago (and more than 350 posts ago) when I started this, what was to become an, opus:


> I pose the question...what makes no chill fly?
> ## It causes no more reported cases of botulism that conventional chilling.


I followed with a series of points made about no-chill, none of which said no chill was bad, in fact quite the opposite, and proposed a simple, cheap , well proven method as an alternative. Now some may say I posted with cynical intent, but, frankly influenced somewhat by a recent re-reading of Umberto Eco's collection of essays "Travels in Hyperreality" I posted with semiotic intent.
But back to the point of the post: It would appear that after much discussion and even some brave poster putting his hand up to experiment with biotoxins (now that is silly),...drumroll... brewing of beer does not cause botulism!!!
All this science I don't understand. Observation I do understand, whilst all science is in the first instance based on observation, Science does not hold a monopoly on observation.
I hope that others have enjoyed this, and gained as much out of this as I have, but I think this threads time has come.
So long and thanks for all the AD Hope references.

K


----------



## bradsbrew

dr K said:


> Less than two weeks ago (and more than 350 posts ago) when I started this, what was to become an, opus:
> I followed with a series of points made about no-chill, none of which said no chill was bad, in fact quite the opposite, and proposed a simple, cheap , well proven method as an alternative. Now some may say I posted with cynical intent, but, frankly influenced somewhat by a recent re-reading of Umberto Eco's collection of essays "Travels in Hyperreality" I posted with semiotic intent.
> But back to the point of the post: It would appear that after much discussion and even some brave poster putting his hand up to experiment with biotoxins (now that is silly),...drumroll... brewing of beer does not cause botulism!!!
> All this science I don't understand. Observation I do understand, whilst all science is in the first instance based on observation, Science does not hold a monopoly on observation.
> I hope that others have enjoyed this, and gained as much out of this as I have, but I think this threads time has come.
> So long and thanks for all the AD Hope references.
> 
> K



And I took you as a credible poster. I guess you disproved that as well.


----------



## Nick JD

I'm going to change my name to _Dr Nick_. To gain credibility from the whole weetbix Ph.D thing.


----------



## Cocko

So, it seems you should have listened to me in the first place! :lol: 



Cocko said:


> I no chill because its Rad.
> 
> Thus my beer is Rad.
> 
> Making me way Rad.



h34r: 

Carry on..


----------



## Bongchitis

bradsbrew said:


> And I took you as a credible poster. I guess you disproved that as well.




Glad I'm not the only one that thought it was a bit off... sarcasm is the lowest form of wit etc etc

Dr K , You should go back to your hypereality..... they may be impressed by your superior intelect there.


----------



## keifer33

Nick JD said:


> I'm going to change my name to _Dr Nick_. To gain credibility from the whole weetbix Ph.D thing.



I think you should Dr Nick,

The kneebone's connected to the... something. The something's connected to the... red thing. The red thing's connected to my wrist watch... Uh oh.


----------



## manticle

dr K said:


> Less than two weeks ago (and more than 350 posts ago) when I started this, what was to become an, opus:
> I followed with a series of points made about no-chill, none of which said no chill was bad, in fact quite the opposite, and proposed a simple, cheap , well proven method as an alternative. Now some may say I posted with cynical intent, but, frankly influenced somewhat by a recent re-reading of Umberto Eco's collection of essays "Travels in Hyperreality" I posted with semiotic intent.
> But back to the point of the post: It would appear that after much discussion and even some brave poster putting his hand up to experiment with biotoxins (now that is silly),...drumroll... brewing of beer does not cause botulism!!!
> All this science I don't understand. Observation I do understand, whilst all science is in the first instance based on observation, Science does not hold a monopoly on observation.
> I hope that others have enjoyed this, and gained as much out of this as I have, but I think this threads time has come.
> So long and thanks for all the AD Hope references.
> 
> K



Irrespective of your literary influences, you started a thread that was inevitably going to cause a shit storm and are now surprised it has become one?

I think people have enjoyed it, yes (and thankyou, in spite of the fact you may not have intended so). I'm also glad one of the main detractors of the method, who in the main, asserts his criticisms with not so subtle barbs, balloon pricking and general mud throwing, is happy to attempt a slightly more impartial test, possibly in collaboration with some people who have vehemently disagreed with him and his posting methods on a number of occasions. It's a nice shift in my, possibly worthless, opinion.

Science as a basic idea might be considered a quantifying of observation and as such, I don't think those who seek to do so are claiming a monopoly on observation. The scientists who do become one eyed and dogmatic.

Not sure why I bothered posting and I'm not really sure why you did either, Umberto notwithstanding.


----------



## bradsbrew

dr K said:


> ## It causes no more reported cases of botulism that conventional chilling.



This statement does not make sense. I observed this within your first post and I observed this when you referenced your quote.


----------



## Batz

Does it mean I can come out now?


----------



## manticle

I didn't know you were gay?

Of course you can come out whenever you like.

We're all friends here (except for the bastards, pricks and arseholes).


----------



## bradsbrew

Batz said:


> Does it mean I can come out now?



I thought you came out years ago............Well thats what Sean said. :lol:

edit. beaten by manticle


----------



## TonyC

manticle said:


> I didn't know you were gay?
> 
> Of course you can come out whenever you like.
> 
> We're all friends here (except for the bastards, pricks and arseholes).




you forgot C##TS, like cocko


----------



## pk.sax

Oh thank you all for proving I'm not doing anything dangerous by no chilling! Thanks a million. Now I have to find something else that is risky!


----------



## Batz

bradsbrew said:


> I thought you came out years ago............Well thats what Sean said. :lol:
> 
> edit. beaten by manticle




What about the Clostridium botulinum?


----------



## Batz

practicalfool said:


> Oh thank you all for proving I'm not doing anything dangerous by no chilling! Thanks a million. Now I have to find something else that is risky!




You could join a SE Queensland swap.


----------



## bradsbrew

practicalfool said:


> Oh thank you all for proving I'm not doing anything dangerous by no chilling! Thanks a million. Now I have to find something else that is risky!



Tip your spent grain in a pile on your garden and finish brewing then cube, 2 days later stick your hands to the centre of the the grain pile for 2 minutes then rub your hands into your cleaned and sterile fermenter and pour your cube into the fermenter trying not to introduce much oxygen. Let the beer ferment, then bottle or keg. When you are ready to try the beer get drK over to observe (he likes to watch). He can then pass on the results.

Cheers


----------



## bradsbrew

Batz said:


> What about the Clostridium botulinum?



Ah Incider was drunk. I thought he said he'd got Closeto in ya bottum


----------



## Batz

bradsbrew said:


> Ah Incider was drunk. I thought he said he'd got Closeto in ya bottum




That's why it was itchy and scratchy.


----------



## Cocko

TonyC said:


> you forgot C##TS, like cocko



Thats just rude you [\/NT!

 

:lol:


----------



## Mattress

Sorry guys, Ive been a bit busy.

Can someone give me a quick run down on whats been going on here?


----------



## pk.sax

Mattress said:


> Sorry guys, Ive been a bit busy.
> 
> Can someone give me a quick run down on whats been going on here?



Batz came out of the closet.


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery

Mattrass
No chilling is OK - so is chilling apparently so relax...
but now someone said something about asbestos and mesothilioma .... what happens if a fibre gets in my cube - am I f^&ked ?
I'm freaking out now
Cheers
BBB


----------



## Batz

h34r:


practicalfool said:


> Batz came out of the closet.




Ok I no chill more often than not.

Batz h34r:


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery

More no chillers


----------



## bradsbrew

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> but now someone said something about asbestos and mesothilioma .... what happens if a fibre gets in my cube - am I f^&ked ?
> I'm freaking out now
> Cheers
> BBB



Asbestos is a real threat and has been proven to cause health issues unlike CB in no chilling. Dont worry if a fibre gets into your cube because you can ingest but not inhale asbestos fibres. It wont be the ingested fibre that causes the health issue but if you are in the same environment that caused an asbestos particulate to fall into your cube then you have almost certainly inhaled the fibres in multiple and may not see the effects for 30+ years. Also depends on the grade of asbestos fibre that you have inhaled.


----------



## bum

bradsbrew said:


> Asbestos is a real threat and has been proven to cause health issues unlike CB in no chilling. Dont worry if a fibre gets into your cube because you can ingest but not inhale asbestos fibres. It wont be the ingested fibre that causes the health issue but if you are in the same environment that caused an asbestos particulate to fall into your cube then you have almost certainly inhaled the fibres in multiple and may not see the effects for 30+ years. Also depends on the grade of asbestos fibre that you have inhaled.


Also depends on how much you breathe in...but we're not supposed to talk about that.


----------



## bradsbrew

bum said:


> Also depends on how much you breathe in...but we're not supposed to talk about that.



Not really.


----------



## bum

[EDIT: dangerous misinformation removed in light of correction given below. Apologies to anyone who had already read the offending post.]


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery

Thanks bradbrew - I'm fucked then <_< . Carry on

I have been know to inhale beer ..... I deny inhaling any leafy green substance though (the Bill Clinton defence)


----------



## bradsbrew

bum said:


> Yes, really. That "one fibre is as dangerous as a hundred"-bullshit everyone spouts is bullshit.



Actually it is the fact that if you have been in an environment that has seen you inhale one fibre, you have most likely inhaled multiple fibres.


----------



## bum

bradsbrew said:


> Actually it is the fact that if you have been in an environment that has seen you inhale one fibre, you have most likely inhaled multiple fibres.


When I was getting my class B non-friable asbestos removal ticket we were told that the exposure must be overwhelming (i.e. need to cough). I'm not pretending this is much of a qualification (it isn't) but I'd expect the contents of Worksafe accredited training programs to largely be correct.

[EDIT: erm...corrected the name of the ticket]


----------



## bradsbrew

bum said:


> When I was getting my class B non-friable asbestos ticket we were told that the exposure must be overwhelming (i.e. need to cough). I'm not pretending this is much of a qualification (it isn't) but I'd expect the contents of Worksafe accredited training programs to largely be correct.


Really they told you that? WOW. How many times do you need to cough? When my trainers deliver this course to people we are more informative. That was bad advice perhaps you shoukld go back to the RTO and argue to get your money back.

Edit . The course may be accredited but has it been audited by Worksafe.


----------



## bum

Eh, I'm out of the game now and the reason we had to do the training was a company we contracted to panicking rather than us actually having any real reason to work with asbestos. I'll happily accept your correction and offer my apologies. I'll go back and edit out the part in question so as not to mislead anyone in such a dangerous fashion.


----------



## Batz

Asbestos scares me, that I have have worked with more than most of you guys.
Batz


----------



## Bada Bing Brewery

I was just taking the piss re asbestos - didnt mean to derail this interesting thread.
Cheers
BBB


----------



## bradsbrew

bum said:


> Eh, I'm out of the game now and the reason we had to do the training was a company we contracted to panicking rather than us actually having any real reason to work with asbestos. I'll happily accept your correction and offer my apologies. I'll go back and edit out the part in question so as not to mislead anyone in such a dangerous fashion.



No worries Bum. It's a scary product and my company has put alot of work into developing a product to inform workers and the public of its dangers. So much so that we actually got acredited within parliment for our qualification and everyone who works within QLD government contracts has to complete the course we developed. 

Still can't believe, well actually I can, that there are trainers out there who offer this advice to people who come for advice.


Cheers


----------



## bradsbrew

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> I was just taking the piss re asbestos - didnt mean to derail this interesting thread.
> Cheers
> BBB



Yeah your right triple B. But at least its not just dribble.

I would still like to see the results of a CB vs no chill experiment.


----------



## kieran

Sounds like everybody's pretty certain that their post-boil worts have >5ppm beta acids. 

I've enjoyed digging around the problem at least I know a lot more about.

FWIW, Jon Herskovits from Five Star got back to me.. and none of their Sanitation of Brew cleaning products are active against C.b. spores. However:


"Jon Herskovits" said:


> we make a product that is used as a decon for weapons of Mass descruction (Both Chemicals and Biological). We even have kill against Anthrax. However, I don't sell that product to Homebrewers.


----------



## Deebo

OK so botulism is off the table.. how about cyanide poisoning in cherry beer?


----------



## pk.sax

I forgot what I was about to post so I'll let it be.


----------



## Cocko

practicalfool said:


> I forgot what I was about to post so I'll let it be.



Really? We are gonna do the Aluminium thing now?!


h34r:


----------



## bum

Well played, Cocko.


----------



## browndog

Batz said:


> Asbestos scares me, that I have have worked with more than most of you guys.
> Batz




How do you think I feel, I used to work for James Hardie for a time FFS...


----------



## Tim F

Isn't IBU = ppm of alpha acids? That would make the ppm of beta acids in wort dependent on the ratio of alpha:beta acids in the type(s) of hops you are using. I guess it is possible if you were making a hefeweizen or maybe a lager and used 20 ibu of a hop with a low ratio of beta to alpha there is a small chance you could be under 5ppm beta acids?

*I just googled most of this so might have it backwards.


----------



## jyo

bum said:


> Well played, Cocko.




FFS, don't ever, under any circumstances, encourage him!


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Thanks bradbrew - I'm fucked then <_< . Carry on
> 
> I have been know to inhale beer ..... I deny inhaling any leafy green substance though (the Bill Clinton defence)


Guilty BBB ,Sails a boat down from Indo, why , because ...........
I like looking at the horizon . What about all that hash that washed up on the beach about the same time ?
Nev


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies

jyo said:


> FFS, don't ever, under any circumstances, encourage him!


Mate this is one of the biggest looping threads I have have seen, you should spank yourself and go to bed.
Pics or it never happened . Enjoyed that last Wit yesterday.
Nev


----------



## Fish13

ledgenko said:


> I think Chillin is all where it is at ... for all you fly mothers ... get out and chill ...
> 
> 
> But seriously ...
> 
> I use cubes and I did not vote for Aunty Julia



no but you drank everyones beer you mug


----------



## ledgenko

fish13 said:


> no but you drank everyones beer you mug




No I still have the beer for JYO .... but .... oops I did it .. I drank yours :-( ... but on an up shot it was really good and I will / have said to JYO ... I am a penis .. and a really big one !!! 


Don't pick on the deaf guy ... 


I feel bad


----------



## Fish13

thats cool mate. next time.  at least your not this bloke


----------



## ledgenko

fish13 said:


> thats cool mate. next time.  at least your not this bloke




You got a good touch up by the lady at Big Als ... nice little brew shop .. heaps of bargains .. walked out with the keg .. gonna make a nice tun ... for my small batches ...


Matt

BTW ... your beer was awesome ... I want that recipe ... it was tops


----------



## Fish13

wait you walked out with a buffer keg??


bastard

yeap i'll post the recipe up now.


----------



## ledgenko

want it ??? 


for a few $ its yours ... gonna make a great TUN !!!!


----------



## Fish13

na its yours mate. i got some otehr leads to follow


----------



## bum

Is this that Bookface all the kiddies are talking about?


----------



## rich_lamb

Jeez, just logged on to AHB to soak up some time waiting for a plane - but after reading this I think I'll go back to staring out the window... :blink:


----------



## yardy

Batz said:


> Asbestos scares me, that I have have worked with more than most of you guys.
> Batz



Same here, had 4 major asbestos breaches on a shut.


----------



## Maxt

practicalfool said:


> Oh thank you all for proving I'm not doing anything dangerous by no chilling!



I love proof, reminds me of this quote:

"The book points out that the Babel fish could not possibly have developed naturally, and therefore both proves and disproves the existence of God:

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could evolve purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing".
"But," says man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing." HHGTTG


----------



## brucearnold

So does this make me a chiller or no-chiller? :huh:


----------



## Dazza88

depends on how much botulism is in that wheel barrow, been carting around dirt just before hand?


----------



## pk.sax

I feel like stirring that pot....

So, all those comments about chucking out swollen cubes, if the beta acids in your wort de-activate the spores, then how is a swollen cube related to botulism?

Anybody care to explain?


----------



## going down a hill

It isn't infected with botulism, it's just infected.


----------



## Spork

The government should subsidise hops, in the interest of safety.

I have NFI what relationship PPM (of the CB inhibiting acid) to IBU's is, however I read somewhere in last couple of pages that the effective minimum concentration was below the human taste threshold. I read elsewhere, with regard to IBU's, that to most people, 5 IBU's is the minimum amount where a change in bitterness is tasted. Ie. most of us wouldn't taste any difference between 22 and 25 IBU's, but we would taste a difference between 22 and 27 IBU's. That would suggest to me that the threshold for tasting IBS's would be <5.

Of course, this may be completely wrong.


----------



## Tim F

Spork said:


> The government should subsidise hops, in the interest of safety.
> 
> I have NFI what relationship PPM (of the CB inhibiting acid) to IBU's is





Tim F said:


> Isn't IBU = ppm of alpha acids? That would make the ppm of beta acids in wort dependent on the ratio of alpha:beta acids in the type(s) of hops you are using. I guess it is possible if you were making a hefeweizen or maybe a lager and used 20 ibu of a hop with a low ratio of beta to alpha there is a small chance you could be under 5ppm beta acids?
> 
> *I just googled most of this so might have it backwards.





*Big assumption that alpha and beta acids are extracted at similar rates during the boil?


----------



## emnpaul

practicalfool said:


> the beta acids in your wort de-activate the spores...related to botulism
> 
> Anybody care to explain?




Simple.
Dry hop all your beers with 100g of POR and you'll never get Botulism.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

so - you're all sure, on the basis of one patent application, the basic science of which no can seem to find - that its all fine and dandy now?

any of you blokes wanna buy a used car??

FFS, only one of you seems to have any bloody idea what hop beta acids even are, but you're all sure they're a silver bullet. Smells hoppy so it must be alright - jeezus

No-chill was never a threat for botulism. Dr K said it in his first post and no one with a modicum of sense has posted anything that suggests it is a problem. The hurdles to infection are just too many - I've mentioned most of them, all of them have been talked about (even if they do seem to be misunderstood too) - to make the chance of a CB infection anything other than stupidly remote.

BUT - Darren reminded us, that its only a little bit away from _being_ a problem, a really serious one. And if people, as people inevitably do, take shortcuts, dont do things properly, use half instead of a whole solution, or misunderstand the risk - then someone could die.

No-Chill is not inherrently risk free - it can be made more than acceptably safe and the general practise does that. But to refuse to admit that there is a risk potential in the first place?? foolish. To drink a cube that you know is infected when there exists even the remotest chance that the infection could harm you? idiotic.


----------



## Tim F

If there's a chance Clostridium can survive in a no chill cube why are people less worried about it making it into fermenting or finished beer? From reading it is alcohol tolerant and can grow in an environment with up to 2% O2. Again just googling around but you can dissolve maximum around 8mg/L of O2 in wort when aerating which is .8% unless my math escapes me. Maybe I am missing something obvious, it is bed time


----------



## tavas

Tim F said:


> If there's a chance Clostridium can survive in a no chill cube why are people less worried about it making it into fermenting or finished beer? From reading it is alcohol tolerant and can grow in an environment with up to 2% O2. Again just googling around but you can dissolve maximum around 8mg/L of O2 in wort when aerating which is .8% unless my math escapes me. Maybe I am missing something obvious, it is bed time



8ppm equals 8 mg/l.

8ppm equals 0.0008%. Yes you missed a couple of zeros.


----------



## JDW81

tavas said:


> 8ppm equals 8 mg/l.
> 
> 8ppm equals 0.0008%. Yes you missed a couple of zeros.



No chill really no different to any other aspect of existance, there are risks involved. I might get hit by a car when I cross the street so I look both ways and cross at the lights. Could I still get cleaned up? Yes, but I've taken measures to minimise the risk. It's worked for me thus far.

IMHO no chill is the same. Is there a risk of CB (or other infection)? Of course there is, but I clean and sanitise like a fiend to minimise the risk. I can never be 100% sure that everything will be fine, but I risk manage to the best of my ability. If a cube is swollen or smells funky then down the drain it goes and I clean the cube to within an inch of it's life, or chuck it and buy a new one. Once again, it has worked thus far, my beer is pretty good and no one has died.

This has certaiinly been an interesting twentysomething pages though.

JD


----------



## Dazza88

You might get hit by a no-chill cube while crossing the street.


----------



## JDW81

DazDog said:


> You might get hit by a no-chill cube while crossing the street.



Hopefully an uninfected one


----------



## DJR

The hops/CB link is pretty old - i can't believe we are still having this conversation.

We have been no-chilling for what now, at least 6-7 years including the ND brewing fresh wort kits and that guy from Wollongong whose name escapes me right now, no botulism cases returned, IMHO darren, give it up already

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=186810


----------



## Feldon

Thirsty Boy said:


> Dr K said it in his first post and no one with a modicum of sense has posted anything that suggests it is a problem. The hurdles to infection are just too many - I've mentioned most of them, all of them have been talked about (even if they do seem to be misunderstood too) - to make the chance of a CB infection anything other than stupidly remote.



I posted an extract from a scientific paper that showed that CB spores can survive the mashing process and be present in the spent grain, in spite of boiling temps, hops etc. Two points arise:

(1) For spores to be found in the spent grain, they would have to have been present in the grain pre-mash.

(2) If spores are present in the post mash grains they would also be present in the wort.

CB spores are not toxic - it is the toxin they produce when they actively germinate (if that's the right word) that kills. So the question is: are the anerobic and temperature conditions of a no chill cube suitable for germination?

Also, the argument that in thousands of years of brewing there has never beeen a reported case of beer causing botulism poisoning is misleading. The no chill method is a historically recent innovation. The currently accepted position that beer cannot be a vehicle for botulism means that doctors, coroners etc have discounted the possibilty and they seek to lay the blame on other sources.

We need to also remember that botulism poisoning, regardless of its source, is a very rare occurence. So its infrequency with regards to brewing is no different to its infrequency with regards to any other food stuff. 

Botulism is a bit like legionaire's disease in that it is very rare, but when it does manifest itself it is lethal. With legionaire's disease we can minimise the risk by keeping our air-cons clean, because dirty air-cons seem to be the vehicle for growing and spreading the bug. But with brewing and botulism we can't 'clean' the pre-mash grain, can we?

Edit: I wrongly implied in the above that the mashing process involved boiling the grain, which is not usually done. But elsewhere in this thread it has been stated that CB spores are only denatured at temps above 121 degrees C. So the general idea of spores surviving the boil (~100 degrees C) to be present in the resulting wort would still stand.


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## Tim F

tavas said:


> 8ppm equals 8 mg/l.
> 
> 8ppm equals 0.0008%. Yes you missed a couple of zeros.



LOL I did say it was bed time 
But that means, like I was saying, that the dissolved oxygen in wort after aeration is below the limit of what clostridium can tolerate. So if there's a risk of the bacteria growing in a NC cube there must also be a risk of it growing in fermenting beer. If I got something profoundly obvious wrong again my excuse this time will be I haven't had my coffee yet.


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## SJW

To chill or not chill, that is the question.
I was the biggest advocate for no chilling a few years back until I had one swell. In over 200 brews, chilled and no chilled that was the only brew I had ever dumped. Since then I chill, ferment then drink.
But as I am awaiting the arrival of my BM, I suspect I will do a few no chillers, as my drinking capacity wont keep pace with my need to brew on my new toy.
As for botulism............I bet my left nut and $6 that non of us will ever die from it


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## RobW

After talking to a food scientist the other night I hope to nail this soon.

His advice is that the AW value of wort is the most significant factor here but acidic wort pH and the action of hop acids also play a part, possibly in a symbiotic manner.

He's offered to analyse the AW of some wort samples for me and in addition I may be able to get hold of some C. bot spores to inoculate some boiled wort with and see if anything will grow.

Hopefully we can then have some hard empirical evidence.

I hope to brew in the next week or so and will report back with the results.


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## the_new_darren

I though this was an interesting post from Dazdog to throw some bugs to the pidgeons.

http://foodct.com/2011/10/10/utah-inmates-...on-brewed-beer/






*Utah Inmates Stricken with Botulism after Drinking Prison-Brewed Beer*
*According to AP reports* Utah health officials are investigating a suspected botulism outbreak in 12 inmates who may have contracted the disease after drinking alcohol homebrewed inside a prison cell.

Salt Lake Valley Health Department spokesman Nicholas Rupp says eight men were hospitalized, three of which are in critical condition Wednesday. Four inmates also are being treated at the prison.

Department of Corrections officials say the inmates drank the home-brewed alcohol over the weekend. The first of the inmates became ill on Sunday.

Health officials say foodborne botulism is a rare, but serious illness that can cause paralysis. Its caused by a nerve toxin that is produced by bacteria.

Rupp says the eight hospitalized inmates have been treated for the disease with an anti-toxin obtained from the Centers for Disease Control.

Many cases of botulism are preventable. *Foodborne botulism* has often been from home-canned foods with low acid content, such as asparagus, green beans, beets and corn and is caused by failure to follow proper canning methods. In this case it was a failure likely in the bottling or fermentation process. However, seemingly unlikely or unusual sources are found every decade, with the common problem of improper handling during manufacture, at retail, or by consumers; some examples are chopped garlic in oil, canned cheese sauce, chile peppers, tomatoes, carrot juice, and baked potatoes wrapped in foil.

Persons who do home canning or home brewing should follow strict hygienic procedures to reduce contamination of foods, and carefully follow instructions on safe home canning including the use of pressure canners/cookers as recommended through county extension services or from the US Department of Agriculture. Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept hot until served or refrigerated.

Because the botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety. Most infant botulism cases cannot be prevented because the bacteria that causes this disease is in soil and dust. The bacteria can be found inside homes on floors, carpet, and countertops even after cleaning. Honey can contain the bacteria that causes infant botulism so, children less than 12 months old should not be fed honey. Honey is safe for persons 1 year of age and older.

tnd


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## stux

I wonder if their "homebrewed alcohol" had hops in it

Doubt it.


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## DJR

Have you ever seen prison beer? Usually fermented in a bag from juice, no hops and very poor sanitation. It's a wonder they even call it beer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruno

I'm not reading into that story until there is any proof they used a no-chill cube or hops in the recipe. IMHO the same risks could affect chillers if you had shit ingredients, sanitation and practices


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## benno1973

DJR said:


> Have you ever seen prison beer? Usually fermented in a bag from juice, no hops and very poor sanitation. It's a wonder they even call it beer



An experimental example of prison wine...


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## kieran

Feldon said:


> So the question is: are the anerobic and temperature conditions of a no chill cube suitable for germination?



Without hops, maybe (but with, Cb will not germinate if wort in cube has >5ppm Beta acids in it.).

Perhaps that's where the prison thing comes from - no hops (their "wort" could also have had a high Aw).

I doubt a full lab analysis was done on their brewjailhouse.


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## HoppingMad

Are we there yet? After 22 pages of this I want an ice cream.
Great to read the terms 'chill vs no-chill' and 'Do a search FFS' after such a long absence of such comments from AHB. Some things never change here!

I reckon:

- No two brewers brew the same way. A point made a fair bit in Gordon Strong's 'Brewing Better Beer' if you've happened to have read a copy of late. So if your process works for you stick to it. Whether that's chill or no-chill. Why go changing?
- I've done ok at Nationals and State level no-chilling (including a no-chilled lager which took a top slot) so I'm sticking with my method and won't be throwing out my cubes as they're going great guns for me. No-chill does work. You too may have cleaned up on the award front by chilling instead, and that's awesome too and more power to you.
- The Wizard was mentioned (BYO writer) as a no-chill hater - he is a great author and a commercial brewer but please note he's a yank who like most of them are petrified of no-chill and doesn't actually use the method from what I can find. His argument is with the science of it. Which most folks can't get their head around. I can't either but I maintain it works.
- According to BYO 2009 Australian Edition - us Aussies came up with no-chill/cubin'. We should celebrate having this option since this idea was was born and bred here! The no-chill cube is up there with Lamingtons, Vegemite and the Owen Machine gun as one of our top Australian inventions people!
- Botulism? Haha hilarious - that word seems to have had plenty here riled up. But I do agree with Thirsty Boy and the gist of Darren's comments that if your wort filled cube smells like infected vomit and is swollen up then don't waste a yeast on it. There can be a risk that if you don't get your wort into the cube piping hot it will go rancid. 
- On the above point I do agree that cubing is another step to get a possible infection, but so is putting a badly cleaned chiller coil in your wort so they're pretty much neck and neck. Clean & sterilise as you would on any other piece of gear and there's no issue.
- On a serious note I do think some of Dr K's points are valid - his comment on less cleaning with a chiller has got me thinking a bit - it would certainly take less effort for me to clean a coil than two cubes on a double batch I reckon, so it has got me thinking on its merits. I may well cross over at some point.

Nuff said - do what makes you happy folks, then if it makes beer at the end of it all, enjoy the darn thing. 

Cheers,  

Hopper.


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## WarmBeer

Dude, why did you have to go and zombie this thread.

Subject is dead and gone, let it rest.

:icon_cheers:


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## RobW

I'm gonna give it another poke too.
Just had some wort analysed in a food lab.

The SG was 1.066 and the AW value came back as 0.96.

Given the C. botulinum AW inhibition values of

Type A 0.95 

Type B 0.94 

Type E 0.97

I think it's fair to conclude only Type E would be inhibited (and maybe not even Type E in a lower gravity wort).


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## ekul

Prison beer doesn't have to comply with the reinheitsgebot and as such doesn't have to include barley or hops. This liberation from the reinheitsgebot allows the brewers to experiment with nonconventional ingredients. This freedom of expression by the brewer, combined with the common practice of open fermentation results in refreshing tart beverage with sour undertones.

Anyway, its not surprising that prison 'beer' results in botulism. It's rotten food and water.

Also check out this thread on old cubes. Seems wuite a few people are keeping cubes for extended periods of time with a potential good effect on the beer http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=63213


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## kieran

RobW said:


> I'm gonna give it another poke too.
> Just had some wort analysed in a food lab.
> 
> The SG was 1.066 and the AW value came back as 0.96.
> 
> Given the C. botulinum AW inhibition values of
> 
> Type A 0.95
> 
> Type B 0.94
> 
> Type E 0.97
> 
> I think it's fair to conclude only Type E would be inhibited (and maybe not even Type E in a lower gravity wort).



Thanks for posting that RobW! Very interesting.
I wonder what SG/OG you need to get an AW of <0.94 then?

So it's down to the hop Beta acids then.


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## brettprevans

looking at the symtoms for botulism, its good to know I had a bout of it on the weekend and it had nothing to do with the 7 pints I had.

http://www.medicinenet.com/botulism/page4.htm
What are the symptoms of botulism?
The classic symptoms of botulism include double vision, blurred vision, drooping eyelids, slurred speech, difficulty swallowing, dry mouth, and muscle weakness. Constipation may occur. The doctor's examination may reveal that the gag reflex and the deep tendon reflexes like the knee-jerk reflex are decreased or absent.

just brew high grav beer and let the alc kill it. tactical nuclear penguins all round! 

sorry for the OT

and im flying in the face of botulism and no chilled again.


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## JDW81

citymorgue2 said:


> looking at the symtoms for botulism, its good to know I had a bout of it on the weekend and it had nothing to do with the 7 pints I had.
> 
> http://www.medicinenet.com/botulism/page4.htm
> What are the symptoms of botulism?
> The classic symptoms of botulism include double vision, blurred vision, drooping eyelids, slurred speech, difficulty swallowing, dry mouth, and muscle weakness. Constipation may occur. The doctor's examination may reveal that the gag reflex and the deep tendon reflexes like the knee-jerk reflex are decreased or absent.
> 
> just brew high grav beer and let the alc kill it. tactical nuclear penguins all round!
> 
> sorry for the OT
> 
> and im flying in the face of botulism and no chilled again.



Every time I drink my no chilled beer I get blurred vision, slurred speach
and lose muscle control, here I was putting it down to alcohol, how foolish, it must be botulism.


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## SJW

Is there any chance of getting Botulism from no chilling into old cubes?


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## manticle

Did they originally contain botulism?


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## ekul

Don't all cubes have botulism in them? 

SJW- If you store your cubes full of napisan for awhile it should clean them up real nice. I always store my cubes full of napisan, means they're clean when i want them.


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## Dazza88

i knew posting that prison link would be some ammo for tnd.

i wonder if dumping a footy boot full of botulosm containing soil into the fermenter after high krausen will result in botulism poisoning. i'd call it dry botching.


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## ekul

botulism seems to enhance the effects of alcohol. This could be a way to increase bang for your buck whilst also keeping under the limit.


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## brettprevans

ekul said:


> botulism seems to enhance the effects of alcohol. This could be a way to increase bang for your buck whilst also keeping under the limit.


The new party drug u recon


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## QldKev

manticle said:


> Did they originally contain botulism?




LMFAO


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## QldKev

ekul said:


> botulism seems to enhance the effects of alcohol. This could be a way to increase bang for your buck whilst also keeping under the limit.




I'll grab a Red dog and botulism please


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## pk.sax

ekul said:


> botulism seems to enhance the effects of alcohol. This could be a way to increase bang for your buck whilst also keeping under the limit.


Entrepreneur of the year


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## DJR

I have done about 5 batches now with my immersion chiller, but i did a batch of Altbier with a cube the other day. Cos i was feeling lazy.


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## manticle

You may find yourself pissing from the left side of your willy only due to paralysis.

Most brewers don't even notice it.


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## Mattress

Unfortunately I regularly go to patients that claim they have had their drinks spiked when I know they have just drunk more than they can handle.

Lately I have been telling the really annoying ones that, with the symptoms they are displaying, I can't rule out botulism. Makes them freak out a little and makes my night go a bit quicker. B)


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## Deebo

Bottulism is the new Brett.

Wyeast authentic no-chill cube culture 666


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## rich_lamb

Am currently working up a recipe for a dry botched IPA that I may do for the club dinner later this year. Where would I find the most reliable source of the botch? - D'you reckon I could just take samples of the potato salad from a local salad bar or should I go to a kebab place in Nicholson street?


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## Deebo

For the authentic italian botulism dry meat a pound of ground up salami for 3 months into the fermenter once fermentation is complete.

Edit: make sure it is nitrite free or this may effect the bott


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## HBHB

Mattress said:


> Unfortunately I regularly go to patients that claim they have had their drinks spiked when I know they have just drunk more than they can handle.
> 
> Lately I have been telling the really annoying ones that, with the symptoms they are displaying, I can't rule out botulism. Makes them freak out a little and makes my night go a bit quicker. B)



"the really annoying ones" - 98% strike rate.

14 ga canula achieves the same result. 

Tell their friends they really just need a slappin' and watch them help out. 

:icon_cheers: 
Martin


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## RobW

kieran said:


> Thanks for posting that RobW! Very interesting.
> I wonder what SG/OG you need to get an AW of <0.94 then?
> 
> So it's down to the hop Beta acids then.




Maybe the hop acids or low pH in geneal, maybe C. botulinum is just an unlikely contaminant of the brewing process.

Maybe it can survive in wort but the fermentation process and resultant alcohol denatures the vegetative forms and toxins.

There also seems to be disagreement about the AW values required for inhibition:
Microorganism Inhibitedaw_Clostridium botulinum_ A, B.97_Clostridium botulinum_ E.97
If we accept these figures it makes more sense.


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## the_new_darren

citymorgue2 said:


> The doctor's examination may reveal that the gag reflex are decreased or absent.



I can see where this might come in handy :icon_cheers: 

tnd


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## Clutch

I'm getting ahead of the curve and brewing a Golden Staph Ale.


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## QldKev

Clutch said:


> I'm getting ahead of the curve and brewing a Golden Staph Ale.




would that be a James Squire variety ?


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## boingk

Mattress said:


> Unfortunately I regularly go to patients that claim they have had their drinks spiked when I know they have just drunk more than they can handle.
> 
> Lately I have been telling the really annoying ones that, with the symptoms they are displaying, I can't rule out botulism. Makes them freak out a little and makes my night go a bit quicker. B)



Used to know a girl at university that did this almost every time we went out, wrecking our night because then we'd have to take care of her. I summed it up for her that next time we wouldn't be there to take care of her mess, and that we didn't what issues were causing her to drink so much so often... but whatever they were she was going to have to deal with them in a more effective way, because we were sick of it and beyond caring anymore. She straightened up pretty quick.

- boingk


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## sim

Hah  im going for a double leprosy ale. Dry hopped with whole leppers!


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## stux

sim said:


> Hah  im going for a double leprosy ale. Dry hopped with whole leppers!



Dry Lepping? You just drop in a few fingers of leprosy?


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## sim

yeah, thats the go. Back in the day in ye olde England the leppers were actually invited to bath in the shallow stone fermentors! This gave a distinct biscuity liveliness to the taste of the dark beers of this time, but also led to some brewhouse troubles with solids blocking the draining tap. A real hearty ale it was, with substance! With Quality Control these days, we're all bubble-wrapped i tells ya.


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## Steve

HoppingMad said:


> Great to read the terms 'chill vs no-chill' and 'Do a search FFS' after such a long absence of such comments from AHB. Some things never change here!




Was just thinking the same thing. After, for me a 12 month absence nothing has changed. Same shit slinging, i.e. the Bb Ale Malt thread. Sad really. Dont know why I bothered looking in. Have fun going round and around and around and around and around


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## Clutch

Ebolager has just been invented.


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## jakethedog

Mattress said:


> Unfortunately I regularly go to patients that claim they have had their drinks spiked when I know they have just drunk more than they can handle.
> 
> Lately I have been telling the really annoying ones that, with the symptoms they are displaying, I can't rule out botulism. Makes them freak out a little and makes my night go a bit quicker. B)




We may have similar professions. The last "drink spiking" case I attended to was from a mother concerned for her 16 yr old daughter. Mother: "her drink must have been spiked because she came home from a party like this and she would never drink alcohol". I had to stop myself ffrom laughing. I wanted to say to the mother that she probably thinks her daughter is still a virgin too.


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## kymba

should i be worried about botulism being present in a cube of jenkem? even if one was real anal about cleaning?


----------



## DJR

Fryeast announces new PSS (Pahological Seasonal Strains)

AVAILABLE JULY THROUGH SEPTEMBER 2012

Fryeast LD50-1 E.Coli
Styles: Hamburgers, Sausages, other meat products
Lethality: Medium

Fryeast LD50-2 H.Pylori
Styles: Ulcers
Lethality: Low

Fryeast LD50-3 C.Botulinum
Styles: Hamburgers, Sausages, No-Chill Cubes (_Darrenus_ type), other meat products
Lethality: High



Now available from kebab shops, meat manufacturers and other fine food establishments


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## Midnight Brew

Came across this today at work in regards to baby formula and I knew botulism rang a bell. Didn't want to start a new thread.

heres the article
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-07/authorities-confident-australia27s-botulism-scare-over/4869842


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## Mantis

Been away from here for a good while but have been brewing constantly and no chilling all the way and unless I am missing the symptoms no botulism here.
This place hasn't changed eh. The resident shit stirrer starts a thread saying no chillers are dills and it runs for 24 pages
Get back to brewing dudes


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## QldKev

Mantis said:


> Been away from here for a good while but have been brewing constantly and no chilling all the way and unless I am missing the symptoms no botulism here.
> This place hasn't changed eh. The resident shit stirrer starts a thread saying no chillers are dills and it runs for 24 pages
> Get back to brewing dudes


Welcome back,

think I've had botulism a few times since you have been gone,
maybe it was just too much alcohol...


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Hey mantis, welcome back.

Please stick with the forum. There's a great number of newbs really eager, but there are a few members stirring the pot and muddying the waters. The beer discussion is great, and I'd love to see the flow of exiting experienced members stemmed.


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## GalBrew

To be fair, this thread is over a year and a half old. When was the last time you saw dr K?


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## Yob

GalBrew said:


> To be fair, this thread is over a year and a half old. When was the last time you saw dr K?


He's been away building a mega cube


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## Dengue

GalBrew said:


> To be fair, this thread is over a year and a half old. When was the last time you saw dr K?


May 26th, 2013.


I wonder if Dr K rehydrates his yeast ?


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## Mantis

Yob said:


> He's been away building a mega cube


 :lol: :beer:


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