# Salt Additions - Where To Get



## himzol (10/11/08)

Hi Folks,

I'm going to have a play with some water chemistry this weekend. I'm having trouble getting some of the salts though, namely Gypsum, Calcium Chloride and Calcium Carbonate (chalk).

Does anybody in Adelaide know where I can get this stuff, or conversly who I can order it from so that it arrives by Friday?

Himzo


I may not reply until this evening due to work commitments, need to leave the office


----------



## BOG (10/11/08)

Craft Brew should have everything you they are generally very quick to ship.

BOG


----------



## kabooby (10/11/08)

You should be able to get these from the hardware

Gypsum = Gypsum
Calcium Chloride = Damprid

You can get Calcium Carbonate from good homebrew stores. Grain and Grape sell it.

kabooby


----------



## Weizguy (10/11/08)

MHB also sells these from his shop, FWIW.

A pm or email can confirm price


----------



## RobB (10/11/08)

kabooby said:


> You should be able to get these from the hardware
> 
> Gypsum = Gypsum
> Calcium Chloride = Damprid
> ...



I've often wondered about gypsum from the hardware shop. Is this what everyone else generally uses?

My concern was that there might be traces of other chemicals in there, anti-clumping agents for example, which they might not be obliged to list on the packet. After all, it's not like anyone's going to _drink _the stuff is it?


----------



## kabooby (10/11/08)

Thats what I use as well as a few other local brewers. No problems yet 

kabooby


----------



## himzol (10/11/08)

kabooby said:


> You should be able to get these from the hardware
> 
> Gypsum = Gypsum
> Calcium Chloride = Damprid
> ...


 
Thanks for that,  

H


----------



## MHB (10/11/08)

Where ever you buy your water chemicals, make sure they are Food Grade.

There can be some very unpleasant contaminants in industrial chemicals that arent intended for use in food or food processing. Leachable heavy metals would be the first thing to watch for; you know things like Lead, Cadmium, and Arsenic.

These metals are Cumulative Poisons, that means you dont notice the harm until later when the amount in you system builds up to dangerous levels.

Frankly the miniscule cost difference between made for the job products and the low grade industrial chemical makes it a no brainer for me.

Buy Food Grade.

MHB


----------



## himzol (10/11/08)

MHB said:


> Where ever you buy your water chemicals, make sure they are Food Grade.
> 
> 
> MHB



This was my dilemma to start with. I don't mind paying the extra for peace of mind so I might make some calls to some of the chemical supply places around Adeliade tomorrow before I do anything. 
Though quite frankly I don't think I've ever heard of food grade chalk, so I might get some interesting responces, should be fun.. :lol: 

H.


----------



## bigfridge (10/11/08)

himzo said:


> This was my dilemma to start with. I don't mind paying the extra for peace of mind so I might make some calls to some of the chemical supply places around Adeliade tomorrow before I do anything.
> Though quite frankly I don't think I've ever heard of food grade chalk, so I might get some interesting responces, should be fun.. :lol:
> 
> H.



Fully agree with MHB.

Just google for australian 'homebrew supplies calcium chloride'

All the local HB shops will be listed.

HTH,
Dave


----------



## buttersd70 (10/11/08)

Does Wayne (beerbelly.com.au, ahb username domonsura) have the salts? Must admit, I;ve never asked him....give him a bell or a PM. And post the results here, you've got me curious now.


----------



## dr K (10/11/08)

Another thread talks about 5 Star 5.2 for mash stabilisation.
I tend to use the old 10cc.

K


----------



## Bribie G (10/11/08)

Back to basics, while this thread is live, I know that breweries historically clustered around water supplies that produced superior beers, such as Pilsen, or Tadcaster and Burton in the UK.

Do the minerals, such as gypsum, result in great beers because of the effect of the water in the mash, or during the fermentation? I'm keen to adjust my water for UK bitters and will try to get a water report from my local council but obviously need to do WATER 101 to get a handle on all this.


----------



## glennheinzel (11/11/08)

BribieG said:


> Back to basics, while this thread is live, I know that breweries historically clustered around water supplies that produced superior beers, such as Pilsen, or Tadcaster and Burton in the UK.
> 
> Do the minerals, such as gypsum, result in great beers because of the effect of the water in the mash, or during the fermentation? I'm keen to adjust my water for UK bitters and will try to get a water report from my local council but obviously need to do WATER 101 to get a handle on all this.



Do the minerals affect the ideal style of beer? Yes!
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-2.html


----------



## 3G (11/11/08)

I recently bough all my salts from a combination of the following, epsom salt and table salt from coles, all the others from both Gaganis in Hindmarsh and from that beer and wine makind supplies in Regency park opposite Regency tafe.(sorry cant remember which from where)


----------



## himzol (11/11/08)

Gregg J said:


> I recently bough all my salts from a combination of the following, epsom salt and table salt from coles, all the others from both Gaganis in Hindmarsh and from that beer and wine makind supplies in Regency park opposite Regency tafe.(sorry cant remember which from where)



Thanks Gregg,

I went to Gaganis and they didn't seem to have anything I didn't already have. I heard that they do stock Calcium Chloride but I couldn't find it. As for the Wine place, it's just around the corner from my office, drove past there and it looked like it had closed down.. I might just pop out and see if that's the case.

H.


----------



## himzol (11/11/08)

himzo said:


> As for the Wine place, it's just around the corner from my office, drove past there and it looked like it had closed down.. I might just pop out and see if that's the case.
> 
> H.



Yep, nothing but an empty showroom.

H.


----------



## Bribie G (11/11/08)

Local council are going to charge me $90 for a test. In the long term it might be an investment in good beer but shyte that's a sack of Maris Otter <_< , does anyone know of a way to get it done privately for less, or do any chemists on the forum have an idea about how to test for myself? Are there any kits available?


----------



## Maple (11/11/08)

I would have thought your local water provider would have to publish these reports anyway, look to the provider of the water.


----------



## RussTaylor (11/11/08)

himzo said:


> Does anybody in Adelaide know where I can get this stuff, or conversly who I can order it from so that it arrives by Friday?
> 
> Himzo



Ace Chemicals should have it all in stock - http://www.acechem.com.au/ Give them a ring first and make sure you ask for the food grade stuff. 

119 A Mooringe Av, Campden Park.


----------



## Bribie G (11/11/08)

Maple said:


> I would have thought your local water provider would have to publish these reports anyway, look to the provider of the water.


Unfortunately where I live we get a cocktail of water depending on which part of Bribie Island we live in so the individual reports for the various sources aren't applicable to me. 

In our area we get water from four sources: Somerset/Wivenhoe Dams which are inland, the North Pine Dam which is Northside Brisbane, the Caboolture River (dead cows etc) which is on the Mainland from the Island, and from a set of underground water bores on the Island itself (slight salinity and heaps of sulphur). The cocktail is pumped to three very large water towers that then service the various suburbs on the island but how they adjust the flows into the towers from the various sources I have no idea, probably by examining the entrails of oxen or something  

As we are coming into the wet season and have had excellent rain the last few months I'm seeing if I can get on to a supply of tank water and adjust accordingly, it's only 40L per BIAB brew so putting out some feelers but it would be a PITA.


----------



## PostModern (11/11/08)

Maple said:


> I would have thought your local water provider would have to publish these reports anyway, look to the provider of the water.



Most water suppliers will give a "typical analysis" but that is not guaranteed to be what flows out of your tap year round. I've said it before and I'll say it again, knowing what your water was like on day 1 does not mean you know what is coming out of the tap on day 2, nor even in the evening of day 1. Big breweries use RO so they always start with a blank slate. Homebrewers just need to know "near enough", imho, which is why I think it's pointless to weigh your salts to the nearest mg as your water solids might be out by the gram from your supply's "typical analysis". Different story with tank water, of course.


----------



## himzol (11/11/08)

RussTaylor said:


> Ace Chemicals should have it all in stock - http://www.acechem.com.au/ Give them a ring first and make sure you ask for the food grade stuff.
> 
> 119 A Mooringe Av, Campden Park.



Great minds think alike, went there and picked up 500gms of each... A bit exy but mainly because of the small quantities I was buying.

Your not the guy they were telling me about who was looking for food grade glycol are you?

H.


----------



## clarkey7 (11/11/08)

BribieG said:


> Local council are going to charge me $90 for a test. In the long term it might be an investment in good beer but shyte that's a sack of Maris Otter <_< , does anyone know of a way to get it done privately for less, or do any chemists on the forum have an idea about how to test for myself? Are there any kits available?


BribieG,

Have you given the QLD Health Scientific Services (formerly Govt Chem Lab) at Coopers Plains, Brisbane a call yet? 

I used to work in that building and they are happy to do standard water analysis or any other scientific work for that matter to government, commercial, residential and private customers - as long as your paying.

I'm not sure that they will be any cheaper - but it's another option.

Just looked in the Yellow pages - 3274-9111. Let us know how you get on.

Cheers

PB :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## himzol (11/11/08)

Just to put everybody in the pictrure.

I will be using my tank water which, apart from some koala droppings, Possum P!ss, and some eucalyptus leaves has no additives.  so basically starting with a clean slate.

I'm going to use Palmers spreadsheet and the table thingy at the back of his book to work out a couple or three water profiles. 
One for dark beer (porters etc), One for ligfht beers and one for somewher in between. 
I'm not aiming for any particular city water profile just consistancy from one batch to the next. I still have some heavy reading to do and maybe some testing along the way before I settle on said profiles. That said if all works out the porter that I brew this weekend for example should be the same as one that I brew this time next year. So if I'm not happy with the brew I can change the recipe to suit and not wonder if the water had anything to do with it.

i.e. eliminate water as a variable. 

wish me luck.

H.


----------



## therook (11/11/08)

himzo said:


> Just to put everybody in the pictrure.
> 
> I will be using my tank water which, apart from some koala droppings, Possum P!ss, and some eucalyptus leaves has no additives.  so basically starting with a clean slate.
> 
> ...



himzo,

I'm on tank water and Wes Smith created some water profiles for me, PM me if you want a copy

Rook


----------



## himzol (11/11/08)

therook said:


> himzo,
> 
> I'm on tank water and Wes Smith created some water profiles for me, PM me if you want a copy
> 
> Rook



PM sent. and thanks,

Himzo.


----------



## RussTaylor (11/11/08)

himzo said:


> Your not the guy they were telling me about who was looking for food grade glycol are you?
> 
> H.


Nope, what would you use that for :huh: 
Picked up some Calcium Chloride from there a few months back.


----------



## himzol (11/11/08)

RussTaylor said:


> Nope, what would you use that for :huh:
> .



Flooded font.


----------



## Weizguy (11/11/08)

himzo said:


> I'm going to use Palmers spreadsheet and the table thingy at the back of his book to work out a couple or three water profiles.
> One for dark beer (porters etc), One for ligfht beers and one for somewher in between.
> 
> .
> ...


I thought that Palmer recommended two profiles. One for dark and one for pale beers, or was it JZ? Not sure now. Those Yanks all look the same to me (Humour). Nah, I just don't remember.
But it sounded like sound advice, in context with the balance of the discussion.

Palmer was bangin' on about his spreadsheet, and lovin' the local beer. And I get the impression that he understood Monty Python humour. Not your normal mouthy stereotype Seppo. He's edjamakated, and a really nice guy. I think I may have invited him up to Newie, and he smiled and nodded politely.

Shame that Doc was tied up, unable to attend.

Back O/T where this belongs. 2 profiles. I think you will be able to buy the transcripts on a DVD soon. AndyD?

Les 2much
"Beer, beer, beer, bed, bed, bed" - Homer (that yellow bald guy who reminds you of someone met in Adelaide).


----------



## clarkey7 (11/11/08)

Les the Weizguy said:


> I thought that Palmer recommended two profiles. One for dark and one for pale beers, or was it JZ? Not sure now.


It was Jamil :icon_cheers: 

PB


----------



## dr K (12/11/08)

maybe I am not up to speed on this..but why would rainwater 9from a tank I imagine) be a "clean slate", possum poo etc aside even..

K


----------



## himzol (12/11/08)

dr K said:


> maybe I am not up to speed on this..but why would rainwater 9from a tank I imagine) be a "clean slate", possum poo etc aside even..
> 
> K



I still want to get it tested but, given it doesn't get into contact with anything apart from a bit of zincalume roofing then there should be no calcium,magnesium, carbonates or sodium in that water. So from a brewing salts point of view a clean slate (in theory)

I also have two sets of tanks, the ones that come of the shed and the ones that come of the house,. the house has a tiled roof which may give different results. so will get both tested.


----------



## fraser_john (12/11/08)

Contents of rainwater have been discussed in other threads, but I will add my two cents here anyway! 

I use rainwater for flushing our dunnies and since doing that, they have scaled up real bad in the bottom of the bowl. Tanks are new (3 years old) plastic tanks. 

It was suggested I contact Alcoa to see if they would do some testing on the water as I am downwind of the refinery at Pt.Henry. I did contact them and they are coming out on Wednesday next week(19-11-2008) to grab a sample of the water and test it for me! Very happy about that!

I cannot imagine what is causing the scale, unless its something washing of the tile roof, maybe the tiles are releasing something into the water? Or worse, it is some junk out of the air from the refinery! Time to stop using rainwater as the basis for brewing in that case, for me at least!


----------



## himzol (12/11/08)

fraser_john said:


> Contents of rainwater have been discussed in other threads, but I will add my two cents here anyway!
> 
> I use rainwater for flushing our dunnies and since doing that, they have scaled up real bad in the bottom of the bowl. Tanks are new (3 years old) plastic tanks.
> 
> ...



I'm with you there, just because it falls from the sky doesn't mean it's pure... mine goes through a sediment filter first then a carbon filter before I'll use it for beer. 
It isn't plummbed into the house so no worries there, main use is for watering the veggie patch, fruit trees and topping up the aquaponics tanks.

H.


----------



## drsmurto (12/11/08)

Himzo, if you need any salts let me know. I have a cupboard full of them at home. Your welcome to drop in and take enough for a few batches. The case swap is at my house on the 13th of December - feel free to rock up with a few beers

Not food grade, they are analytical reagents and therefore a shiteload more pure than food grade. h34r: 

Last time i checked i had 

CaSO4
CaCl2
CaCO3
MgSO4
NaHCO3

I analysed my rainwater with the aim of jumping into water chemistry but am yet to take the plunge. Cleaner than pilsen water.


----------



## James L (12/11/08)

NaHCO3 is bicarb that you can get from the supermarket, 
MgSO4 is epsum salt you can get from the supermarket, 
I think that CaCO3 is antacid tablets,

Dunno about gypsum.. and cacl2, you could try the pharmacy...


----------



## himzol (12/11/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Himzo, if you need any salts let me know. I have a cupboard full of them at home. Your welcome to drop in and take enough for a few batches. The case swap is at my house on the 13th of December - feel free to rock up with a few beers
> 
> Not food grade, they are analytical reagents and therefore a shiteload more pure than food grade. h34r:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the offer, I've actually got everything now so it's just a case of playing around to get the figures and stars to align. :icon_cheers: 

I would have loved to come to the case swap, but I don't have anything to bring and the work Christmas dinner is on that day as well (know where I'd rather be).  

Himzo.


----------



## MHB (13/11/08)

Just a word of caution on Calcium Chloride, its deliquescent as all get out, thats why its used in damp rid and other moisture absorbers.

When you buy CaCl2 it is usually partly hydrated (the stuff I have is CaCl2.2H2O) so its 77% by weight CaCl2.
Tho I have seen other forms like penta-hydrate and anhydrous which is rarely used because its like glass and very hard to dissolve.

You just need to take the mass of water into account when you are doing your calculations.

Naturally you also want to keep it in a well closed airtight jar or it will suck moisture out of the air - that makes a complete nonsense of your calculations.

MHB


----------



## Bribie G (13/11/08)

James L said:


> NaHCO3 is bicarb that you can get from the supermarket,
> MgSO4 is epsum salt you can get from the supermarket,
> I think that CaCO3 is antacid tablets,
> 
> Dunno about gypsum.. and cacl2, you could try the pharmacy...




Gypsum is: garden gypsum and also plaster of paris, from craft shops. It is presumably fairly pure, although not necessarily food grade.


----------



## technocat (15/11/08)

BribieG said:


> Back to basics, while this thread is live, I know that breweries historically clustered around water supplies that produced superior beers, such as Pilsen, or Tadcaster and Burton in the UK.
> 
> Do the minerals, such as gypsum, result in great beers because of the effect of the water in the mash, or during the fermentation? I'm keen to adjust my water for UK bitters and will try to get a water report from my local council but obviously need to do WATER 101 to get a handle on all this.



Mineral additions to a water profile of the style of beer you are trying to emulate definitely puts the icing on the cake IMHO Unfortunately with Beersmith and I am not sure about Promash you have to arrive at the quantities needed manually as Beersmith doesn't work it out for you. Also you should get a water profile on your supply from the local authority so you can adjust your additions accordingly. I live rural and rely on rain water which is fairly benign so I am pretty well in the distilled water category. More on this subject can be found on John Palmer's How to Brew chapter 15 Understanding Ph of mash.

Cheers


----------

