# No Preservatives, No Hangover?



## RhysG (20/2/07)

Hi all, I'm new here so don't flame me too hard. I was wondering whether the theory that beer (or any alcohol for that matter - i.e. homemade wine) does not give you a hangover because it lacks preservatives :huh:? Can anyone clear me up on this one and recommend some good beers that don't have said nasty, hangover inducing preservatives (commercially available from the local Dan's etc of course )?

Cheers,
Rhys


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## voota (20/2/07)

Myth imo. Its the dehydration and fusil alcohols that contribute to the hangover... you get both of these from drinking homebrew or craftbrew. However it is probably true that the nasty chemicals and adjuncts you find in the swill dont do you any good. No reason to drink that crap really.


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## Adamt (20/2/07)

The way I see it; a proper beer, with fresh ingredients, a good quality, healthy and populous strain of yeast, well controlled fermentation temperature and sound sanitation, yields a beer with everything you need, and no nasty yeast by-products you don't want. 

Whether yeast by-products, preservatives (who needs artificial preservatives when you have hops?!) or any other un-necessary additions cause hangovers is not yet proven (to my knowledge). It has been observed by many that hangover symptoms are decidedly better when drinking good quality homebrew.

Besides, proper made beer without any unnecessary additions taste better.

As far as commercial beers go; Coopers is probably Australia's most famous brewery that doesn't obscenely use anything unnecessary, Little Creatures, MSB (can't be sure of this one), pretty much any microbrewery who cares about the taste of their beer is a safe bet.


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## pint of lager (20/2/07)

Have a read of How Stuff Works:Hangovers.

It discusses what a hangover is, why certain alcoholic beverages seem to create less hangovers and what can help.

This site is also listed in the links section here on AHB.


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## PistolPatch (21/2/07)

Howdy POL! 

POL has the best resources ever but unfortunatley I'm on dial-up today and am therefore waiting for POL's link to download.

While waiting, apart from Coopers, the only Australian beer I know that is produced without any additives is Haagen. I never get a hangover on their Premium Light whilst I will on Cascade's. Haagen use no chemicals.

Screwtop is a great one for knowing what causes hangovers. I'll send him a PM tomorrow and ask him to reply here.

The only prob with the Haagen Premium Light is that every case tastes different - seriously. But, as home brewers, we should probably respect that....

Pat


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## Randall the Enamel Animal (21/2/07)

Look up the Food Standard Australia and New Zealand web page for the permissible additives in beer. Don't guess, go find out. Other than a very small amount of sulfur dioxide (occurs naturally but breweries often 'top-up' to the limit), no preservative can be added to beer. That why most commercial beers go through a tunnel pasteuriser. Common processing aids such as amylase, beta glucanase, kettle finings, antifoam, PGA, iso- and tetra-hop, silica hydrogel, PVPP and the like do not cause and are unlikely to contribute to hang overs.


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## browndog (21/2/07)

PistolPatch said:


> Howdy POL!
> 
> POL has the best resources ever but unfortunatley I'm on dial-up today and am therefore waiting for POL's link to download.
> 
> ...



Pat, I tasted Haagen Gold I think it was 20 bucks a slab and mate, it tasted like it was made from instant beer powder  

cheers

Browndog


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## Kai (21/2/07)

Randall the Enamel Animal said:


> Look up the Food Standard Australia and New Zealand web page for the permissible additives in beer. Don't guess, go find out. Other than a very small amount of sulfur dioxide (occurs naturally but breweries often 'top-up' to the limit), no preservative can be added to beer. That why most commercial beers go through a tunnel pasteuriser. Common processing aids such as amylase, beta glucanase, kettle finings, antifoam, PGA, iso- and tetra-hop, silica hydrogel, PVPP and the like do not cause and are unlikely to contribute to hang overs.



Well said, Randy. 

Even top-quality home-made beer can give you a cracking hangover if you work at it.


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## Thirsty Boy (21/2/07)

Don't know if they count as preservatives or simply additives, but I know for a fact that Sodium Met, Potassium Carbonate and Ascorbic acid are all added to at least one of the mega brews here in Aus.

Small amounts indeed. But go in they do.


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## PistolPatch (21/2/07)

browndog said:


> Pat, I tasted Haagen Gold I think it was 20 bucks a slab and mate, it tasted like it was made from instant beer powder



Yep, the Gold is a shocker. I think their full-strength is too from memory though I think I've blocked that memory out! The light is usually pretty good.

That link from POL is an interesting read. Wish I'd read it before drinking all that Grolsch last night :blink:


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## RhysG (21/2/07)

Thanks for the fast replies everyone :beer:  so no sizable difference b/wn commercial and hb for hangovers... But you have to admit there are some beers that do give you a worse hangover than others though.

Cheers,
Rhys


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## SpillsMostOfIt (21/2/07)

PistolPatch said:


> That link from POL is an interesting read. Wish I'd read it before drinking all that Grolsch last night :blink:



Hangover with a swing top... Hmmm.

I used to think there was something lacking with my homebrews - the hangover. My friends now think the same. 

A decent part of that is - for me - that I'm usually drinking homebrew for "the taste" and I usually drink less of it. Commercial beer is usually consumed in quantities destined to give me a hangover.


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## berapnopod (21/2/07)

I've heard anectotal evidence of some people having some sort of allergy to sulfur dioxide. Gives them a strong hangover. This could be one reason why some drinks give you a bigger hangover.

For me its just a straight line correlation between the amount of alcohol consumed and the size of the hangover. Doesn't matter which variety.

Berp.


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## RhysG (21/2/07)

berapnopod said:


> For me its just a straight line correlation between the amount of alcohol consumed and the size of the hangover. Doesn't matter which variety.



^^


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## Fingerlickin_B (21/2/07)

I'm trying to recall a time I have NOT woken up with a really tight neck and killer headache after a night on Carlton Draught, VB, etc but I cannot  

At the same time I'm trying to recall a time that I DID wake up with the same symptoms after a night on a MSB beer, Amsterdam, Kilkenny, homebrew, etc but I cannot...except for a case of HB my mate's dad gave me...but he ferments at insanely high temps  

There is certainly something in certain (read: usually shit) beers that does this to me, no doubt about it. 

I also have a friend who suffers from inflamed and tight tendons in his wrists only after drinking the bad types of beer. 

Given all that, I'm not at all willing to prescribe to the "there are no additives in any beer" philosophy...there's no way it can be true h34r: 

PZ.


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## Screwtop (21/2/07)

Randall the Enamel Animal said:


> Look up the Food Standard Australia and New Zealand web page for the permissible additives in beer. Don't guess, go find out. Other than a very small amount of sulfur dioxide (occurs naturally but breweries often 'top-up' to the limit), no preservative can be added to beer. That why most commercial beers go through a tunnel pasteuriser. Common processing aids such as amylase, beta glucanase, kettle finings, antifoam, PGA, iso- and tetra-hop, silica hydrogel, PVPP and the like do not cause and are unlikely to contribute to hang overs.




As explained above preservatives are regulated to some degree under permissible additives, additives used to aid processes such as fermentation can cause reactions in some people.

Not looking to burst anyone elses theory, however if I drink beer made using Amylase Enzyme (Dry enzyme sold in HBS) I wake with a headache. Discovered this first when I used it in a dark ale. Had three kegs on tap and only got a headache when I drank the dark. Wondering if this was the cause, I used Amylase in a pale ale with the same result. Occasionally I get that same headache after drinking other brewers beers, so I know that some do use Amylase in some of their beers. Remember once drinking another brewers beer when he told me that he had used only a small amount of Amylase to bring his FG down a little more than he was able to achieve naturally. Drank about three of these beers and next morning I had a headache but not as bad as normal, still one occasion is not a large enough sample to declare the finding a fact. 

Interesting to see if others are affected by Amylase in beer. Obviously there is some additive causing this reaction from commercial beers. So many home brewers have made the comment over so many years that there would appear to be some reasonable explanation other than the blanket response we get re alcohol being the cause, any substance capable of killing you would naturally be able to give one a headache. All alcohol can kill if taken in sufficient quantity, and other types of alcohol can cause death in small amounts. The reactions referred to are caused by an overdose of alcohol (overdose amount being defined by a persons physiology/tolerance). However I think that the reactions we are talking about here are not the result of an overdose, three homebrewed beers containing Amylase will give me a headache in the morning, as will six commercial beers. Six homebrewed beers brewed without Amylase, no headache. 

Hope this adds to the debate.


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## Darren (21/2/07)

I always thought that it was the yeast (B- group vitamins) that helped to not get a hang-over with HB? FWIW, Coopers does not give me a hang-over like VB etc.

cheers

Darren


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## tangent (21/2/07)

i was forced to drink a few TEDs last weekend and I had a whopping hangover not proportionate to the amount I drank. Next time I go to a party I'll be one of those weirdoes with 2L Coke bottles full of HB.


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## albrews (21/2/07)

pint of lager said:


> Have a read of How Stuff Works:Hangovers.
> 
> It discusses what a hangover is, why certain alcoholic beverages seem to create less hangovers and what can help.
> 
> This site is also listed in the links section here on AHB.




hi, thanks for this link, it solves all my probs on it.


cheers, alan


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## Keifer (21/2/07)

Commercial beer = bad headaches for me and bad de-hydration. Some worse than others.

Home Brew = no headache (except from one batch which i still have not drunk) and hydration next morning is no where near as bad.

Whatever the case be it preservatives, vit-b, shit house ingrediants, additives or whatever, mega swill sux for hangovers for me.


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## Zizzle (28/2/07)

I used to think it was a myth too.

Then after only drinking HB for a while, I noticed that I got a headache after someone gave me a single stubbie of megaswill.

Last week I had a couple of sessions drinking only LCPA. I was impressed both times at the lack of hangover, even compared to my own HB.


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## Wortgames (28/2/07)

I have a firmly held belief that hops are somewhat involved in my hangovers.

If a beer gives me a disproportionate hangover it will probably be a really hoppy one, or one where the hop 'content' has come from chemically processed hop extract like most megaswill.

Maybe there is a certain personal predisposition involved, but a well-hopped beer that has been brewed 'properly' (ie, real hops added in 'normal' quantities) usually leave me fine. Certain microbreweries 'IPA's that are packed full of pellets (if not iso) will almost certainly make me a bit crook the next day.


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## tangent (28/2/07)

some bloke tried to tell me hangovers had nothing to do with alcohol and he in fact suffered with "hop poisoning".
I took note of the exits and backed away smiling and nodding.
That's why red wine hangovers are so enjoyable.


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## Wortgames (28/2/07)

Oh make no mistake, alcohol is the main offender - I'm just saying that there are other players involved. Some beers I can tell from just one sip that I'll be suffering in the morning - I don't get that from wine or anything else.


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## PistolPatch (28/2/07)

I like your hop theory Wortgames. This explains the massive hangovers after any QLD brewer's meet :wacko:


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## tangent (28/2/07)

maybe it's isohop then
because i'll go to town at the wheaty on LC beers and wake up in a gutter somewhere feeling on top of the world.


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## capretta (1/3/07)

Randall the Enamel Animal said:


> Other than a very small amount of sulfur dioxide (occurs naturally but breweries often 'top-up' to the limit), no preservative can be added to beer.


 
Preservative 220 (sulphur dioxide) is exactly what my "hangover theory" has been based on  . the fact that im a homebrewer is due to my theory... i used to occasionally suffer all day crippling sickness from totally disproportionate amounts of alcohol. 6 schooners would lay me up for 15 hours :blink: but 3 days later (for example) i could drink 14+ with no real effects (aside from normal) . i have never been able to eat cheap sausages and dont even talk to me about frankfurts.. red wine also causes me pain and i found that all these items share (sulphur dioxide) 220.

LINK

i searched around for a preservative free beer (Coopers) and then got into homebrewing, and here i am today!!!

:chug: Still suffering hangovers, but at least they seem more proportional ( just seems fairer!)  


$0.02


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## PistolPatch (1/3/07)

Good post Capretta!

I love tasting and smelling red wine and hoppy beers but not consuming them in quantity due to the resulting hangover. But, far worse, as there is no upside, are nearly all mainstream beers. Do you reckon they have a heap of 220 or isohop?

I used to be able to handle them fine up until about the age of 30. Now, 12 years later, no chance


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## Kai (1/3/07)

capretta said:


> Preservative 220 (sulphur dioxide) is exactly what my "hangover theory" has been based on  . the fact that im a homebrewer is due to my theory... i used to occasionally suffer all day crippling sickness from totally disproportionate amounts of alcohol. 6 schooners would lay me up for 15 hours :blink: but 3 days later (for example) i could drink 14+ with no real effects (aside from normal) . i have never been able to eat cheap sausages and dont even talk to me about frankfurts.. red wine also causes me pain and i found that all these items share (sulphur dioxide) 220.
> 
> LINK
> 
> ...



Too many dried apricots must give you a pounding headache the next day too.


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## Stuster (1/3/07)

Kai said:


> Too many dried apricots must give you a pounding headache the next day too.



That's why he's a homedrier too. :lol:


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## Jazzafish (1/3/07)

Interesting...

What type of hangover are we talking about?

The I feel tired and worn out?
The I feel tired and sore and have a huge headache?
The I just threw up and felt fine after that?
The I'm throwing up every 10mins and can't keep down food or water?
The emergency ward is expecting my arrival any time now?

I have had some nasty hangovers, but none bad enough for a hospital or doctor visit. Homebrew has never given me a very bad hangover. Sure I have been sore and tired after a big session, but I'd be sore and tired if I did half of the drunken adventures without sleep had I been sober. Never had a hangover to the scale of a VB session gone crazy (pre homebrew days). That was very close to a hospital visit.

I recon fermentation temps have a big part in the hangover percentage of home brew. Perservatives add to this in swill. Iso hops... possibly... perservatives (other than hops) more than likely


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## albrews (1/3/07)

Jazzafish said:


> Interesting...
> 
> What type of hangover are we talking about?
> 
> ...



hi,
woolies stores now stock "fruit sugar" for the old ,late at night mistake of 1 more for the road.
picked some up the other day just in case i need it.
cheers


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## capretta (1/3/07)

Jazzafish said:


> Interesting...
> 
> What type of hangover are we talking about?
> The I'm throwing up every 10mins and can't keep down food or water?
> The emergency ward is expecting my arrival any time now?




ha, if only i could make it to the emergency ward!!! seriously tho, the first time it happened i drank no more than 8 schooners over 4-5 hours and the next morning i had a bad headache which soon turned to spewing every 15 mins for 14 hours!! i thought i was poisoned!!! 
i wasnt keen to repeat that marathon performance but i did and though they were quite rare, it was often enough to be able to not attribute it to external causes (Al la late night dodgy lamb sanga).

i did half a biomed degree and had heard of allergies to sulphates etc ( not just related to asthma) and over time developed my own theory that seems to work for me. I get strong headaches from sausages/ franks wine etc and i cant vouch for dried apricots cause i generally dont eat fruit (vegies for me!!) well at least not 8 schooners worth..  

its not something im anal about and if a mate offers me a vb\new and a sausage sandwich i will eat and drink (with as much gusto as vb\new inspires) no prob, but i will be mindful,

" Do not go and overindulge in megaswill and sausages! " 
( a good life-rule in any case  )

to those who suffer similar hangovers to which i described, maybe you could trial a month on preservative free (220) beers and see if that helps at all, as i would be interested in your experiences.. a good excuse for a couple of cases of coopers longnecks if ever i heard :chug:


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## Cortez The Killer (1/3/07)

I've honestly never had a hang over from my brews - maybe felt a little dry in the morning - but never a headache or anything like that.

Commercials knock be about significantly though :wacko: 

Another factor is probably don't hit the homebrew quiet as hard as i used to when i drank commercial beers at the pub.

If I am out - I'll try and stick to coopers sparkling - which has never (by itself) caused me grief :chug: 

Cheers


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## chimera (1/3/07)

It is my (rather well) researched opinion that homebrew is truly capable of inflicting as nasty a hangover as any other alcoholic beverage.

My research has also shown the results to be quite predictable and repeatable, but will vary greatly depending what is being consumed.

I wonder whether it would be possible to write a post graduate thesis on hangovers.... might be i can time my 'study' to coincide with the next Ashes tour of England

Now.. back to my research.


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## capretta (1/3/07)

heh heh get into it, but please dont misunderstand that i mean you DONT get hangovers from not drinking preservatives in beer. i would find it hard to believe anybody who says they have NEVER got a hangover from drinking homebrew. If you drink 9 or so litres of 5% a.b.v beer you are still poisoning yourself!!! dehydration at the very least would provide some annoying side effects.
i just believe that the hangover is PROPORTIONAL to the beer you drink..


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## Mr Bond (1/3/07)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Don't know if they count as preservatives or simply additives, but I know for a fact that Sodium Met, Potassium Carbonate and Ascorbic acid are all added to at least one of the mega brews here in Aus.
> 
> Small amounts indeed. But go in they do.



And they would be in most softdrinks as well!And they don't give hangovers,unless of course they are mixed with alcohol  

For the record ,too much of any boozy beverage gives me a hangover,HB included.
i think Dig makes a good point.


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## paul (1/3/07)

I used to be able to drink VB until I couldnt walk and I never got a hangover.

This changed about 5 years ago. After 2 stubbies I had a headache that felt like my heads in a vice. I started drinking Carlton Draught and didnt get hungover. After about six months I had the same reaction to it.

I changed to drinking Coopers and never got hungover. 

Im now into homebrew and dont get hungover from it.

If i drink spirits I get heart burn after 3/4 of a bottle. Home made spirits dont give me heartburn.

A few years ago I did a tour of Cascade brewery and was told the beer ferments for 3 days. The whole processs is 5 days from grain to being in a bottle or keg. What chemicals do they use to get a lager to ferment out that quick?


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## Thirsty Boy (1/3/07)

Brauluver said:


> And they would be in most softdrinks as well!And they don't give hangovers,unless of course they are mixed with alcohol
> 
> For the record ,too much of any boozy beverage gives me a hangover,HB included.
> i think Dig makes a good point.



Yeah, I just thought it conflicted with the notion that they weren't "allowed" to put preservatives in beer. except for S02, which by the way, they dont actually add at the brewerry to which I refer. Not that theres none there, but they dont add it..



> A few years ago I did a tour of Cascade brewery and was told the beer ferments for 3 days. The whole processs is 5 days from grain to being in a bottle or keg. What chemicals do they use to get a lager to ferment out that quick?



They dont particulary use chemicals, beyond some yeast nutrient (zinc sulphite) they use specialized proprietary yeast, lots of it, high temperatures and filtering helps a lot.

Thirsty


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## hockadays (1/3/07)

I was at the cascade brewery the other day and noticed all there fermenters at 17degc. Clean ALE strain of yeast I think...


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## Thirsty Boy (1/3/07)

hockadays said:


> I was at the cascade brewery the other day and noticed all there fermenters at 17degc. Clean ALE strain of yeast I think...



Well, Cascade does brew several beers that they refer to as Ales, and some of them actually are, but for the most part even they are brewed with Lager (bottom fermenting) yeast. But the temperature does sound about right, depending on the stage of fermentation they were at.


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## capretta (1/3/07)

paul, i used to do the similar flip/flop between beers before "seeing the light" as a homebrewer. 6 months on New, then couldnt stand it, then 6 months on Vb then it became totally unpalatable, then back again (or draught or whatever...) 

huh bizzaro hey?

havent had that problem either since the switch, but then again my tastes are very broad now......  

off topic, this was my response from gabe gressie, one of the head brewers from cascade in reference to his homebrew kit yeast

"The yeast supplied is a pure yeast isolate originating from Bavaria. The strain was chosen for its superior taste unfortunately it is much slower than all the others, we really wanted to provide our consumers with a top class brew and that can only be achieved by slowing the fermentation down. Sadly this is not always appreciated/understood and some people bottle before they get a steady hydrometer reading resulting in bottles exploding. *We don't use this yeast in our fermentations because we have our own unique mixture which consists of 4 different strains. A very difficult yeast to maintain.*"

not definative about lager or ale so dont know how much that contributes but... meh


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