# Is This Site Now The Craftbrewers Sales Site



## Ray_Mills (23/5/06)

G'Day
I have noticed that the site is a free advertising site for Craftbrewer.com.au.
I understand the need for forum sites to have sponsors and its good to go to thier site and see what they have to offer.
What bugs me is topics in this forum for the advantage of the site owner, just tonite there are 2 postings for this supplier,
Will not be long before we have 6 a day from various suppliers, then 20 and after that its all over.
Someone needs to start advising suppliers that this is a forum not free advertising.
my 2 cents
Ray


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## mika (23/5/06)

Craftbrewer is, as far as I'm aware, posting in the "Retail" section of the forum, and as far as I'm aware, other business are invited to do the same.

The owner of Craftbrewer continues to exist as an active member of the forum, but I for one certainly do not see his posts biased by his business interests.
As long as that remains I don't think anyone has cause for complaint.


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## Bobby (23/5/06)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...9604&hl=banner#

it is abit saturated at the moment though.


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## Tony (23/5/06)

I thought they were valid conversations regarding the new products that have been made available to them by craftbrewer to improve their brewing.

If ross was blasting the site with advertising i would be one of the first to tell him to pull his head in but i dont feel this is intirely the case here.

corect me if im wrong but doesnt craftbrewer contribute financialy to AHB from each purchase?

People are excited about the fresh hops, and wnat advice on the hop socks from those of us who have been using them for a while. And i cant see a problem with that.

Just my opinion 

cheers


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## Jez (23/5/06)

...their hops are damn cheap too  

...and delivery is super-quick :lol: 

Jez


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## Bobby (23/5/06)

the most important thing is we are all benifeting from the partnership, through this site and also the stock ross offers.
win win.


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## Ray_Mills (23/5/06)

Its not the products thats the problem or the price.
What my concerns are this is just the begining and within a short time there will be other suppliers getting in on the ban waggon and doing the same.
The administrators will not be able to say you cant as its already happening with one supplier so why cant we do it.
Then you will have a forum with advertising in the forum.
Think about it
Ray


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## Ross (23/5/06)

My 2 cents worth.

I've been very concious not to bombard the board with seperate threads & have kept things to the bare minimum. Only people being interested & posting to these threads keeps them active, the Craftbrewer starts trading thread has had nearly 10,000 hits - If the posts stop, the threads dissappear - simple.

Ray, It is not "free" advertising - AHB gets a % of EVERY sale through this site.

Thread's started like this are the ones I dislike, because they serve no real purpose & only compound what the poster was complaining about - Ray, you just increased the active CraftBrewer threads by 50% - well done  

Cheers Ross


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## kook (23/5/06)

Ray_Mills said:


> The administrators will not be able to say you cant as its already happening with one supplier so why cant we do it.



Dane can say whatever he likes, it's his website!


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## normell (23/5/06)

Another forum that I used to visit is
http://www.fordforums.com.au/index.php?
Have a look 18 site sponsors, and now if the topic mentions anything about competition to these sponsors, it gets the flick real quick

Hopefully this never happens at AHB, but I can see what Ray Mills is on about


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## mongo (23/5/06)

My 2c - 
Have just read Ross' thread above. It's a good point. If I posted something about me going into business, I am sure the thread would die pretty quickly.
The reason why Ross' threads hang around is because he has been a helpful friend to so many people before starting this business. 
He's selflessly contributed to the HB community for years. I am glad to see him get his "pay day". I remember as a very novice brewer (posting as "beginner Steve" on Grumpys) I asked about recipes, and Ross e-mailed me saying to ring him to get some advice. Although I never took him up on this, I was genuinely stunned at his helpfulness. This was over a year ago, and well before his business idea was even a twinkle in the milkman's eye, I'm sure.
Internet forums are fantastic in that they really are controlled by the community. If people have no interest in a commercial post, then they last 0.5 hours max. 
I understand the concern, but I think it's worth relaxing about this one.
Cheers!
Steve.


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## berazafi (23/5/06)

IMHO

I think its not so much the fact that craftbrewer is doing alot of new posts

I think its the fact that he is doing a fantastic job at offering advise, giving good service and doing it all at the right price. 

This is causing alot of posts to remain in the latest threads area, and alot of other members posts to mention his products 

I say Ross keep up the good work.

If he was a bad supplier his threads would quickly dissapear, (lets hope this never happens)

No affiliation etc etc

Also i think you will find there is also another retailer getting a similar resoncse and that is brissybrew. Again not from spaming the forum, but by people being so happy with his product and service they want to place a post to thank him or recomend him


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## poppa joe (23/5/06)

I can only add .the same as Monga......As a newbie ...Got emails from ROSS..With help and suggestions..long before Craftbrewer..
cheers
PJ and BERT


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## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (23/5/06)

I think Rays point is valid as I notice a thread started the other day offering cheap dry Malt Extract and the poster had only joined up on the day they posted the add. Therefore my guess is they only joined to post the add.

Having said this, I dont think the same applies with Craftbrewer because;

1 - Ross doesnt exactly advertise as much as make mention a product in a thread and the thread self-pepetuates out of interest in the product. I certainly dont feel he pushes anything down my throat, although I am sure I could handle few of his brews making thier way there.

2 - Craftbrewer have a link as they are a sponsor. That is fair. but the link is separate from the threads. Threads live or die out of interest or lack of. I myself have participated in them and certainly welcome the discussions.

3 - Ross has a lot of support because he is helpful and does not "Push" the products.

I would also like to make the point that I am concerned about gratuitous spam threads like the one I mentioned (I am not going to link to it as I dont agree with it) are a threat and I dont think anyone should get thier nose out of joint just because someone raises an issue.

I will start to get concerned when Ross starts emailing me un requested price lists or PM'ing me with new products.

Personally i dont really have anything to critisise about this site. I love it as I have never loved a site before and spend far too much time on it.

I find far too much of interest and not all of it regarding HB. 

OK I"M A FAN!!!!!

(I do feel K+K, Extract and partial brewers get looked down on a bit, but this only makes me want to get onto Ag'ing and Kegging all the more. Sometimes I feel like the little brother, but I know that even my K+K's and partials are superior to most commercial beers in my eyes.)

Cheers and keep on brewing

ATOMT


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## sah (23/5/06)

Ross' hops have improved my brewing life. I'm very thankful to this forum that I learnt about them here. I'll buy a sock to try with my next hop order too.

There is another proprietor that has been posting lately. Now his posts are only very thinly disguised ads. They disappeared from the latest threads very quickly, except for one where other members were having some fun at his expense.

I don't think there is yet a need to have the retail posts not appear on the latest threads. If this is thought necessary it would be nice if each member could select this in their profile.

Happy brewing.

Scott


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## browndog (23/5/06)

Seems to me that some people might not remember the reason Ross started this venture in the first place. For him to become a sponsor of the site can only be good for all the members here, and remember, that retail section was here long ago so why shouldn't he use it. As others have said, if there is no interest from the members then the threads will die a speedy death. If there are other suppliers out there of Ross and Brizzie Brews calibre then I say bring em on! I prefer to keep as much of my own cash in my pockets as I can. For those fearing that the forum will become clogged with advertising I am sure the Moderators can remove the retail section from the latest threads, hence, no problemo.


cheers

Browndog


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## Stuster (23/5/06)

browndog said:


> Seems to me that some people might not remember the reason Ross started this venture in the first place.
> [post="128694"][/post]​



Too right. Ross has contributed a lot to this forum, well before the arrival of Craftbrewer. Good on ya, Ross.


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## warrenlw63 (23/5/06)

By very virtue of the fact you're paying lip service to this thread is proof-positive of the power of subliminal advertising.

BTW Ray like any other poster to this site has a right to his opinion and generally contributes nothing but top notch brewing advice. If somebody of that ilk finally pipes up and speaks his mind you have to feel there's some trouble in Utopia.  

Maybe the mods have a method at their disposal to mark non-brewing threads a red colour on the latest threads bar or perhaps with an asterisk to be denoted by the acronym "BS" (no explanation required) on the bottom?

I have nothing further to add. h34r: 

Warren -


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## Gough (23/5/06)

I don't have a problem with Ross, MHB, Country Brewer, Gerard M, or any other retailer posting in the 'Retail' section of the forum. That said, I think that Alien Boy's suggestion that the Retail section be taken out of the 'Latest Threads' as the 'off Topic' and 'Humour' sections have been is a really good one.

Ray's question is worth taking seriously. Retailers have an important contribution to make to the forum and deserve to be treated equally and with respect. That said, one of the major strengths of this forum when I joined it in 2003 was its independence - it is risking losing that a little at the moment. Ross is a significant contributor to the forum and has earned his stripes so to speak. I enjoyed a beer with him when he visited Newcastle last year and this is not any criticism of him personally. Ray's point is worth considering however. Do we want this to remain an independent forum or is it to be a commercial forum with one major player?? Perhaps a compromise would be to remove the Retail section from the 'latest threads' box, allowing those interested in commercial offers to read that section without it constantly being so up front?? 

Just a thought... 

Shawn.


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## lucas (24/5/06)

Gough said:


> That said, I think that Alien Boy's suggestion that the Retail section be taken out of the 'Latest Threads' as the 'off Topic' and 'Humour' sections have been is a really good one.
> [post="128706"][/post]​


If administrators do change this could they perhaps have it as an option in users profiles? id be happy to have off topic and humour removed from the box but personally i like seeing activity in the retail section. I'm sure other brewers have other preferences


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## Linz (24/5/06)

There are more than one supplier "shooting these fish, in this barrell". Not too long ago another supplier posted how great his product was and another jumped on that thread too about His product and brewery taking awards....

Seems that some are more active than others.......not that we 'want' more activity

Since the 'identity' of these suppliers are know to Mods and others....Maybe have them sign in as their business and allow them to post specials twice a week... We can have thursday night shopping specials..be like the QV/Paddys markets, but on-line

They can have their own personal IDs to dole out help/advice for brewing but if they 'sell/advise to buy a different product' under the personal log they are banned for 2 weeks??


Are we up to 8c or 10c now???


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## Pumpy (24/5/06)

Ross has always gone out of his way to help people with brewing thier beer, well outside his 'call of duty' ,It is one of his great 'passions 'and he enjoys sharing that with everone .

Well before he was selling hops, his interest in hops was such, that he was going through my fridge chucking all the hops out saying "You cant make beer with these Pump's they dont have any aroma and the packs aren't sealed properly "

I am sure the will always be some grey areas, which ovelap into his business and forum interest ,however I honestly believe his interest in this Forum are not financial as his previous contribution has proven .

I have learnt what a valuable asset this forum is to us brewers the information gained is far more than one could ever read in any book.

As with all our posts they are well within the moderators control and any time I have stepped over the mark,the moderators have always brought me back into line .
I place my trust in them .  

Pumpy


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## Franko (24/5/06)

Well said pumpy I agree


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## AndrewQLD (24/5/06)

Ray,
Craftbrewer actively supports this site by a paying a % of all sales to the forum, so there is no free advertising.
As far as him posting to the site, all of his post titles mention the business name along with a subject content. 
*If you do not want to read the craftbrewer threads then don't, he has given you the opportunity to not read them.*
AHB now has a steady income which I imagine is a great relief to the mods, what harm is there.
We have a retail section, why not use it, are you going to complain about any of the other people who use the retail section or are you just targeting one particular person?

Andrew


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## goatherder (24/5/06)

I think this is an excellent debate to be having.

I also support removing the retail threads from the latest threads list.

Another forum (non-beer) I am in went down the commercial route. The only commercial postings allowed were from the paid sponsors. As the sponsors wanted value for money, the mods became very heavy handed, to the point of deleting and censoring posts which appeared to advertise other vendors. Any posts requesting equipment information are almost always met with a reply of "why don't you talk to our sponsors". I think the usefulness and sense of community of the board really suffered as a result.

I'm all for retail postings, I think the members will choose the good threads and post to them. I think sponsorship will need to be an increasing part of this board as bandwidth isn't free. I hope we can maintain the balance that exists now, and most importantly, keep the editorial and commercial issues separate from each other.


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## Doc (24/5/06)

*Disclaimer:* Please don't anyone take this post personally or see it as slagging off other brewing related resources in Australia. These are my observations only, and are not intended to offend.

I think I know where you are coming from Ray.
OzCraftBrewer went through growing pains a few years back, and also went out to the market for sponsorship. Some great suppliers stepped up to the mark as well as some individuals (ala what we have done here with CraftBrewer.com.au and the Paypal link).
However now a few years on, the advertising is currently Cryer Malt (distributed by a founder ??), BeerSmith Australia (distributed by the founder), and Barley Crusher (also distributed by a founder ???).
I notice you don't communicate as often on OzCraftBrewer anymore and OCB post totals on the site appear to be well down. I don't mean to be rude or even try to make comparisons, but are you invisaging a similar track associated with site popularity, and trying to make it self supporting ?

Beers,
Doc


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## peas_and_corn (24/5/06)

As I see the issue, it's not really about whether Ross is providing a good service or not- it's great; I bought hops off him before and there will be a hop sock in the mail either today or tomorrow (with a few hops thrown in for good measure). However, the main criticism is a lack of clear consensus of the role of advertising is within the forum, and this needs to be addressed. If another paying sponsor came along, will their logo sit alongside Ross'? What if a third comes along? (I know this sounds fanciful, but a possibility).

This thread is giving an interesting barometer of where people stand (which, of course, depends entirely on where you sit).

Maybe this post makes sense...

Dave


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## Ross (24/5/06)

If the retail threads ever get removed from the "latest threads" list it will be a sad day IMO (& that's not just from a commercial aspect). They are very much part of the forum balance & I personally would not want to go searching For "Mashmasters" or any other retailers latest product/special offer in the off topic section & retailers would soon tire of searching to see if someone had asked them a question. As said by the majority - If there's no interest in the thread, it'll die & disappear very quickly.

What I would support, is that all retail threads should start with the retailers name.
This way, the retailer is being upfront & those that have no interest in a commercial offering, can just ignore it - I personally have made a point of doing this already:
EG:
Craftbrewer - releases HopSock ....
Mashmaster - temp controlers...
Country brewer - promote your comps here...
Northern Brewing - liquid yeast special...

Speaking as a commercial sponser, I certainly don't want to see paying or non-paying commercial entities censored in anyway, as long as they stick by the forum guidelines & I will fight to keep it this way. I have no issues with reading competetitors offerings, keeps us all on our toes. CraftBrewer does not expect nor want to be treated any different to any other supplier.

2c + 2c worth  

Cheers Ross


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## Snow (24/5/06)

I agree with elements of all the posts in this topic so far. 

In the end, it's Dane's site and if he wants sponsorship from 1 or 2 or 10 suppliers then so be it. If he wants a fully commercialised site that makes him a packet of money, then so be it. If he wants to strip it all back to a bare, community based brewing forum then so be it.

That said, Ross is supporting the site. he is not "shooting fish" in any barrel, because we are not stupid "fish" and this aint the only "barrel" on the WWW.

Ross is not engaging in "subliminal advertising" His advertising is obvious and is available to be read or ignored. If someone starts a thread on Simcoe hops and Ross responds with an opinion on that hops properties, brought about because he actually stocks the stuff an has used it and therefore has an opinion, then that is no subliminal advertising. If however, he responds by saying (uninvited) "oh by the way I have this hop instock and it's $3.00/100g", then that would be inappropriate advertising IMO. However, Ross doesn't do this because he has integrity and understands what makes this site great. Of course if during the same thread, someone says "hey Ross do you have these Simcoe hops everyone is raving about?" and he responds " sure I do. Have a look at my catalogue on the Craftbrewer site and let me know if you want some", then that is appropriate IMO and is definitely not subliminal advertising. 

FWIW, I think Retail topics should remain in the most recent threads list.

Sorry for waffling  

Cheers - Snow


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## Beerpig (24/5/06)

De ja vue?

I raised this matter very recently in the wetpak thread (the thread was half deleted)

Anywho, my two bob - 
Ross sponsors this site which is terrific for the forum. For this sponsorship his company link & banner appear at the top of every page. That should be where the promotion ends & Craftbrewer becomes another retailer who is obliged to follow the rules for retail posting. I have absolutley no problem with advertising as long as the rules are applied evenly to all

Treat all retailers the same way

Cheers


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## dane (24/5/06)

Advertising and Sponsers are oing to be a a part of AHB from now on. It's just not viable with the site growth for me to continue to cover the costs. That said I don't think it's a bad thing. Pretty much every site, even the most hardcore community based site will have some form of advertising.

I like the idea of prefixing threads with the company/retailer that is posting, there is probably a facility to have a required text box where you have to type it in prior to submitting the post. I will look into that.

I don't think the retail topics in the latest threads is too much of an issue, at least at this stage. At the current rate if no one replied to the post it would be off the list within 30mins anyway.

Just so everyone knows a % of sales from Craftbrewer go towards AHB so it isn't free advertising as such. Craftbrewer's sales go directly to supporting AHB and keeping it running. The only reason a sponser or advertisment would be brought on would be to help support the site and its growth and it would never be aligned to a particular product or store.

We will be keeping a close eye on the retailers forum but at this stage I don't feel there is a need to review it.


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## Jim_Levet (24/5/06)

Sorry It stuffed about & I submitted twice, can someone fix that as I haven't 12 cents to spend on this topic
James


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## T.D. (24/5/06)

I think exluding the posts from the "latest threads" section is not the answer. Clearly the retail threads are popular - as Ross said, its the posts by every day forum members that are keeping them alive, not the business owner. I think it would be wrong to restrict or regulate threads that are clearly popular.

That said, I would hate to see this forum become dominated by commercial advertising. That's not what its all about. I think something should be done, but not restricting commercial threads. What we need is simply a more transparent atmosphere. My preference is for, as was previously suggested, some sort of difference in the appearance of the title in the "latest threads" - whether that is a different colour or italics or whatever, I believe that would essentially satisfy peoples' concerns expressed here. It would then be obvious if a thread was designed to promote a product, and any member could decide whether they want to or don't want to read a topic before they open it up. I don't believe these threads are "cluttering" up the latest threads list at their current level, but I would probably not like to see many more appear.


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## PostModern (24/5/06)

Well, as a moderator, I think I should probably hold my tongue on this, but I don't know how to do that  I don't mind the site having financial sponsors, in fact it's important that we do in order to pay for the hosting and bandwidth that increased popularity is costing. My concerns with Ross (whom, I've had the pleasure of meeting) and Craftbrewer are twofold:

1. The banner ad at the top of this site does not say "Site Sponsor" or anything similiar. Anyone who doesn't know the site would see the Craftbrewer logo with more vertical space than "aussiehomebrewer.com" and assume that this is a forum run by the business much in the way that Country Brewer host a forum: here which is doubtlessly a commercial forum.

2. Carrying on of Craftbrewer business in non-related threads. eg, threads where a customer replies to Ross's on-topic post with a question about an order's status and Ross responds with dispatch information. Now a thread about, say, chilling wort has three posts relating to the business processes of a site sponsor. This is happening less, and I the mods are generally deleting posts along those lines, as with any other off-topic or disruptive traffic. No offence, Ross, but that is what PM and email are for.

Apart from those minor gripes, both easily overcome, I have no issues with site sponsorship. The money will certainly help the community to continue and thrive. Who knows, we might even get a news and articles section out of this sponsorship? Eh Dane?


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## johnno (24/5/06)

Well I reckon anyone selling stuff here should be sponsoring the site.


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## sintax69 (24/5/06)

Top idea with the prefix
I think most people here dont mind the retail section and or ads (how else do I get my new toys) 
What I would hate to see is this board turn into another grumpys board where you cant talk about nothing but what they sell (i know is there board and shop and all that) It is a balancing act that dane has to play between running cost and reveune sources and keeping all happy. I hope to god that it keeps its independance and if it does not well like everything people will vote with there feet and move on.


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## berazafi (24/5/06)

That would have to be the quickest site modification I have ever seen


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## tangent (24/5/06)

my 2c:
As long as people can realise who's selling stuff and who's recommending stuff (big difference IMO), then bring it on!
I wish more stores would offer AHB members more discounts and consumables. It's a rather under-utilised section of this site. 
I know Holden Hill give the BBC a discount, why not all of us? It might make the drive worthwhile.


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## lunanick (24/5/06)

This site is welcome to all the paid advertising it can attract. good luck to it.

But any advertising must be clearly identified as such, and this sponsorship must not be allowed to interfere with its independence.

I am a member of another site (not beer-related) and its owners signed contracts with advertisers that prohibited the mention of competitors in the forum.

It was a condition of becoming a member that you agreed not to mention advertisers competitors. If anyone did, the post was quickly zapped.

ridiculous.

It would be terrible if we got into a situation where mentions of cheap products or services, for instance, were wiped because they concerned a advertiser's rival.

From what I can gather, Ross is a tremdous fellow, but if somebody somewhere is selling safale for $2.50 a packet I want to read about it.

Sorry Ross but I don't believe that your, or anybody elses, commercial arrangements should be allowed to find their way into the "editorial" section of the site.


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## dane (24/5/06)

berazafi said:


> That would have to be the quickest site modification I have ever seen
> [post="128768"][/post]​




Why thank you :super:


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## Guest Lurker (24/5/06)

dane said:



> berazafi said:
> 
> 
> > That would have to be the quickest site modification I have ever seen
> ...



Although the spelling needs fixing


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## dane (24/5/06)

It was a pre coffee fix. All sorted now!


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## MAH (24/5/06)

I don't quite understand why so many people are getting the hump over commercial advertising on this site. AHB is here to benefit the home brewing community, principally in Australia but also the broader world wide community, by disseminating information. If a retailer has a good product at a comepitive price, then this is information I want to now about. It benefits me and everyone else to have this information freely available. As others have mentioned, it's only when commercial interestes try to impede the flow of information that there is a problem. Ross has never tried to stop another supplier from sharing their information so I see no problem with his posts. I'm also confident that Dane is savy enough not to get into a situation where a supplier demands a restriction of comment, so again I see no problem.

AHB is a mature online community that quickly sorts the chaff from the wheat. Retailers have been posting on here long before Ross. Not surprisingly the crap retailers are no longer around, because the memebers could see through their BS and either let the threads die a natural death or they jumped all over the offending retailer and hound them off the forum. Let retailers post and let the community self moderate. 

CraftBrewer, MashMaster, GMK Enterprises etc have all added to our collective knowledge and provided us with good products at competive prices. How this can be anything other than a positive dumbfounds me.

Cheers
MAH


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## Tseay (24/5/06)

As I recall, this cafuffle, has arisen out of a retailer posting a "Dorothy Dix" promotional post. As Ross says this can be avoided by posting into a specific thread to avoid "advertorial" posts.

There is another aspect to this, what's to prevent someone with an axe to grind, bollocking a usefull product out of commercial greed/envy-whatever. Who would be liable if the products marketer suffered loss as a result ? The poster would be long gone, leaving the web site holding the baby.

Perhaps a better approach would be for products to be submitted to an ahb evaluation committte, who could indepently evaluate the product and report back to the membership. Want to generate some additional income ?- Sell the AHB stamp of approval !


T


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## spog (24/5/06)

talk about a hot topic! if it is/could be benificial to this site and is passed by the moderators let it be so. i am just [email protected]$$^d off that i did not think of doing what ross/brissybrew/gmk and others are doing before they did. cheers...spog..


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## peas_and_corn (24/5/06)

dane said:


> Advertising and Sponsers are oing to be a a part of AHB from now on. It's just not viable with the site growth for me to continue to cover the costs. That said I don't think it's a bad thing. Pretty much every site, even the most hardcore community based site will have some form of advertising.
> 
> I like the idea of prefixing threads with the company/retailer that is posting, there is probably a facility to have a required text box where you have to type it in prior to submitting the post. I will look into that.
> 
> ...




I agree, a nice income for the site I'm sure would be a great relief for you, and that 's an additional reason why I go to craftbrewer. It's also one reason (among others) why I am buying the AHB gear; it's good to support the site. I'd say that your approach is the way to go unless problems arise


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## Jens-Kristian (24/5/06)

I honestly do not see any reason why anything should be changed from the way it is now.

Yes, If Ross was going into posts here, there and everywhere saying "Oh, by the way! I have this or that hop on special all next week" or shamelessly plugging his goods in topics in a non-suitable way then I would be annoyed.

However, I've seen absolutely none of that. From what I can tell, Ross is a perfect gentleman in the way he goes about his business on the board. His posts written as regular posts from the valued member of the board that he is are that. His commercial posts are marked out pretty clearly and you know that what you find in those is of a . . well, commercial character. I see absolutely nothing wrong in that.

It's not that I don't see that there could potentially be an issue if other and less honest characters came in to sponsor the board, but that is an issue for the Admins and moderators. I've been admin for a number of pretty large message boards and remain one for two at the moment, and while there are ofcourse things that need consideration I do not think it is so difficult to keep a board's integrity safe. It is merely a question of choice. This choice I am absolutely certain that Dane, Doc etc. can administer perfectly well. 

Does anyone here really get the feeling that these guys are going to agree to censor posts that directly or indirectly promote products from non-sponsors? I've only been here for about two months and I feel quite confident they won't. 

I don't really see that the retail posts should be taken out of the "most recently posted" list. I very much enjoy the fact that I can come here and not necessarily go through all the forums in order to get a good view of what's going on. Since Homebrewing is a hobby/passion/religion that carries with it a fairly high number of 'needed ingredients' for it to be productively successful, it would be a bit silly to remove the emphasis given by the list.

Integrity is not so hard to observe if you have integrity. It's a bummer if you don't have it, but I sense this board is pretty damned high on that scale.

If you were too lazy to read the above, I'll sum it up here:

Keep it as it is - it's working very well. (now you wish I'd started with that, don't you?  )

Keep up the good work, Ross! I'm looking forward to moving to Australia and doing business with you. 

Cheers,

Jens-Kristian


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## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (24/5/06)

I have no problem with the way things are now but I seem to recall voting on something some time ago.

Is voting not an option?

"Do you want commercial threads left in the most recent threads list?"

"Yes / No / Not concerned"

Cant see there is a lot more to discuss here.

ATOMT


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## colinw (24/5/06)

I see this as a complete non-issue.

If Ross ever crossed the line (and I doubt he would), the administrators and sundry self appointed morality police would jump on him in short order.

Unfortunately, no matter what you do these days, somebody, somewhere is going to get upset & all twisted out of shape about it..

I think it is reasonable to assume that the users of this site have a brain and are capable of thinking for themselves.


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## PostModern (24/5/06)

colinw said:


> I think it is reasonable to assume that the users of this site have a brain and are capable of thinking for themselves.
> [post="128841"][/post]​



Oh, I'd never go ~that~ far


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## Boots (24/5/06)

I have no problem at all with what Ross has done to date. Yes he's very busy on the board, but then, so are other people. Up till now he's made the effort to keep the line between Craftbrewer, and Ross the Homebrewer seperated, and from the posts i have read, he has only posted commercial information when prompted.

I can think of at least 1 other _enterprise_ that (historically) did more inappropriate commercially oriented posting in general threads than Craftbrewer does, and up till now there's been no problems with that one.

And i think the retail posts should stay in the recent threads. What's the point of a retail section if we don't support the retail threads?

Cheers
Boots


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## Steve (24/5/06)

agree with Colinw - this is a complete non-issue IMO.
Cheers
Steve


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## Uncle Fester (24/5/06)

My 2c. (If only all of these 2c went to Dane!)

If you don't want the prospect of commercially orientated posts, then get rid of the retail shop category.

If anyone is over-zealous about the promotion of their products (or over zealous in their assessment of others) then the forum will jump all over them, with no push from the mods. Anyone seen any adverts for kegs from the States lately ???? Onya Matt!

Ross neither over promotes his products, nor hijacks threads. He simply makes all users aware of what he has available. To his credit, he offers some renumeration back to the forum.

Ross's willingness to assist anyone in the pursuit of better beer is in my eyes commendable.

More than happy to have any retailer advertise on the site. If it allows me to make a better informed choice of what I purchase, then more power to it.


M


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## OLD DOG (24/5/06)

here here Mandrakar....

Ross, GMK and others have been very helpful not only to myself to most memebrs on this site. 

We all appreciate his dedication to helping make brewing easier and more enjoyable. 

In short Ross is on a winner with his obsessed hobby, the products and service speak for themselves. 

old dog


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## Hopsta (24/5/06)

Craftbrewers sponsorship is a great thing, and with it who knows one day we might even have the GALLERY back up! :blink:


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## bigfridge (24/5/06)

Hopsta said:


> Craftbrewers sponsorship is a great thing ...
> [post="128876"][/post]​



But it is also a tricky and emotive thing.

I know at least two (established and profitable) businesses that were considering making a donation but lost interest after preferential treatment was given to one 'potential' sponsor.

Unless every sponsor is allowed to advertise in the page banner the impression is that one sponsor is receiveing an unfair advantage.

Just voicing what I have been told ....

David


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## Beerpig (24/5/06)

I know at least two (established and profitable) businesses that were considering making a donation but lost interest after preferential treatment was given to one 'potential' sponsor.

Unless every sponsor is allowed to advertise in the page banner the impression is that one sponsor is receiveing an unfair advantage.



Good points Bigfridge

More sponsorship would be great for the site, give everyone the same treatment & rules

I suppose it's up to the other retailers now to take up the challenge

That is, if the same opportunities are available to them

Cheers


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## Ray_Mills (24/5/06)

Doc said:


> *Disclaimer:* Please don't anyone take this post personally or see it as slagging off other brewing related resources in Australia. These are my observations only, and are not intended to offend.
> 
> I think I know where you are coming from Ray.
> OzCraftBrewer went through growing pains a few years back, and also went out to the market for sponsorship. Some great suppliers stepped up to the mark as well as some individuals (ala what we have done here with CraftBrewer.com.au and the Paypal link).
> ...



Doc
Dont have much time to post here or the OzCraftbrewer site let alone time to make beer as much as i used to.
I started the thread being concerned last nite of commercial posts in the forum. As i said if its not controlled they will take control.
Its no personal attack on Ross, its just his business is number one of many more to come. I just hope the new advertisers have some sort of guidlines on using the forum.
The American HBD has had a great success in making sure sponsors or suppliers in the Homebrew industry is kept well out of the forum. I think this is why it has succeeded over many years.
As for the OzCraftbrewing site I think it is dying slowly from lack of being upto date and it really needs someone to get in and make a big change, but i doubt if that will happen.
Cheers


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## warrenlw63 (24/5/06)

Ray

Hate to sound negative here... Ever seen the HBD lately? You'd double the crowd.  

Their reason is the reason why most of the major HBS in America have their own (quite successful) forums now.

Hey Ross... Maybe you should start your own like morebeer.com and northernbrewer.com.

Would solve a few issues. h34r: 

Warren -


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## bigfridge (24/5/06)

Doc said:


> OzCraftBrewer went through growing pains a few years back, and also went out to the market for sponsorship. Some great suppliers stepped up to the mark as well as some individuals (ala what we have done here with CraftBrewer.com.au and the Paypal link).
> However now a few years on, the advertising is currently Cryer Malt (distributed by a founder ??), BeerSmith Australia (distributed by the founder), and Barley Crusher (also distributed by a founder ???).
> 
> Beers,
> ...



Doc,

No offense taken but your assumptions are totally incorrect. This issue is emotive enough without incorrect information colouring the discussion.

The main sponsors (ie the ones that supply the hard $$ to pay for the hosting) are BarleyCrusher and David Cryer. I (ie David Lamotte who did sell a few copies of Beersmith a few years ago) also fund any shortfall when sponsors are slow to pay etc. We need a minimum of two sponsors to meet the costs.

There is no connection whatsoever between the "founder ??" and these advertisers. Click on their adverts and you will see that you are taken straight to their websites.

For the last year or two, the only person 'running' the Craftbrewer Website has been GLS - I simply pay all the bills. There is no other "founder ??" involved.


David


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## Darren (24/5/06)

The answer is simple, get yourself an old computer running netscape 7 on a dial-up connection and you cant see the advertisement anyhow!

For what its worth, I really couldn't give a stuff if Ross advertised in each post here so long as his products were within the topic and he offered some information with his post. 
We learn from every post and every post should be allowed afaiac.

cheers
Darren


Probably a stupid question, Do you brew Dane? Never see any brew related posts from you!

cheers

Darren


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## BrissyBrew (24/5/06)

wow still reading it all.


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## Vangleator (24/5/06)

I agree with Darren, all info on beer is good info on beer. Brewers need suppliers & suppliers need brewers. I never gave it a thought how this site was run, or paid for. And I now know there could be 'spys' on the site that has made me aware that some of my views, if aired on this site could see the comp I run become devoid of certain sponsors. 
This year, when I gave feedback to one of the sponsors (a kit manufacturer) via email with piccies of event showing a mash setup (to successfully educate the great unwashed how beer is made), the reply was if there was 'mash' brewed entries at the show they weren't too interested in future sponsorship. Probably thinking that the AG brewers would win & take the kit prizes and throw them in the bin. Wrong, the kits are given away by the AG brewers to other kit brewers if they don't use them. 
Goes to show that sponsors want to target a particular market, and if they aren't happy with the results, they will move their sponsorship elsewhere. Ross, GMK & other commercial interests won't stay on this site if the returns don't match the effort expended.
There goes another 2 cents tonite. Crickey, thats almost a stubbie of homebrew. :lol: Think I better have another one now. :chug:


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## mika (24/5/06)

Site Poll, put it to the masses (Mashers ? :huh: )
Personally I think the advertiser should post their name up front (ie Craftbrewer - New hop sock thingy's) and keep it to the Retail section.
Retail section should stay in current posts, otherwise what's the point ?.

Any in topic advertising, be promptly jumped on by the Mod's.

Easy done, life moves on.
RDWHAHB :beer:


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## Brownie (24/5/06)

Frankly who cares.

This is a commercial world, it takes money to breath these days, to run a great site like this that we all use and abuse needs help financially.

Drink some beer and move on.

Or Makes some beer, then drink some beer, and start again.

Brownie


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## Mr Bond (24/5/06)

:chug:


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## poppa joe (24/5/06)

I think retail Section should stay in current posts.....
Not knowing how to work this forum completley...
I would never Know what is going on...
There is room for everyone....And do the other retailers contribute...??
GO ROSS And anyone else who will help this forum and it"s members

My two BOBS worth...
Cheers
PJ


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## mika (24/5/06)

Brauluver said:


> colinw said:
> 
> 
> > On this topic, I presume the Coopers Mild has this same yeast in it, and would probably be in even better condition being a lower alcohol beer than the pale ale.
> ...




Anyone else think Brauluver got lost ?? :blink:


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## /// (24/5/06)

An interesting debate.

Having been on these sorts of things for over 10 years there is a perspective called 'life cycle'.

The HBD was bezerk 7 odd years ago and peaked down. The OZ-Cb has gone thru a life cycle as will this forum. Tastes, formats and technology changes. Quality not quantity is my preference.

With advertising (or any marketing) the actions of these folks make for impression on the market. No matter how much is paid, the market will make thier judgments and thier decisions. That sticks with folks for ever more...

Scotty


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## PistolPatch (25/5/06)

I seem to remember that the last time the bandwidth bill came in, it took a bit of concerted effort to raise the money. I just wonder how many active members make donations. Surely if every active member threw in $50 a year, that would make a huge difference? I just hope there aren't too many people taking the site for granted.

Doc and Dane, I really wish you'd throw a visa facility up as I can only use Paypal when I'm sober and it still takes me a while to remember my passwords etc! Visa is great for impulse buying! Also, moving the PayPal logo to the top of each page may help as I remember it took me some months to even notice it.

So, something's got to give and if it's not all active members, then it's excellent to have Ross. From what I know, he just started Craftbrewer mainly as an interest and a challenge - it's not as though he's doing it as a source of livelihood or is dependant on the income. The day he helped me with my first AG he had just spent 2 hours helping a new brewer with AG over the phone!

I've had great help from one or two other retailers on the site and I'm sure Dane will continue to show great judgement in who he chooses to be sponsors. Lucky for us that it's his show I reckon.

Cheers
PP


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## MVZOOM (25/5/06)

Without the retail threads sticking into the 'Latest Threads' box, I'd not have seen either Ross's hops or Brissy's Temp Controllers -both products have helped my brewing immensley. The free advice that's been offered has also done the same!

They are unobtrusive by nature and don't concern me. Maybe the site admin should break the bandwidth / running charges to everybody, in order that the naysayers understand that it costs real $ to run and adminster a site such as this. 

As many have said before, the community here seem to sort the weat from the chaff pretty quickly, and that kind of QC'ing is probably the most effective.

This is certainly one of the better forum communities out there, with lots of assistance and encouragement given to members. 

Cheers - Mike


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## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (25/5/06)

*GET ON DOWN TO BERNI MAQUIGGANS.*

Best deals on all second hand vehicles.

Guarantees available on request.

All Cars have 4 wheels.

*CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP*

124 Hamilton Way Quansford.

Tell em *Angel *sent you


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## lunanick (25/5/06)

by the by, that site I mentioned earlier sold recently for a rumoured $400,000.

it pays to favour your advertisers over your members, the people who actually give your site its value.

what we have here is a _potential_ problem. I know if I was a site sponsor I'd be less than impressed if one of my competitors received free publicity. And if the site is receiveing a cut of sales, the temptation would be there not to bite the hand that feeds it.

nobody's saying advertising is bad. just keep it separate, or have it clearly tagged (something like "Advertising: Craftbrewer releases new hopsock"), and no grubby deals that rob the members of a free flow of information.


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## Steve Lacey (25/5/06)

The only thing that concerns me about suppliers on forums is when they are so narrowly focused on advancing their own agenda that they continually want to promote their own business or make biased self-serving statements within the general discourse. That is, posts that are not demonstrably to the benefit of the members of the forum.

If they are explicitly informing the board about wizz bang products they carry or specials they might be running or a new load of fresh widgets, that's all fine and above board, provided they do so without gilding the lilley; discussion boards are, afterall, about the exchange of information first and foremost.

Sponsorship can probably come in degrees, ranging from 1) small anonymous donations to 2) a page of clickable sponsor names to 3) non-exclusive prominent logos to 4) exclusive site naming rights. Obviously the value of each option is different, and the site owner(s) need to be aware of the degree of control/independence that they cede to the sponsor in each case. Preferably they should cede no control at all.

The model I think that works best is the one that we seem to be moving towards, but has not been explicitly stated. Non-exclusive sponsorship, with sponsor logos appearing in header space, sponsors being bound by posting guidelines like the rest of us, and no supplier--sponsor or not--being immune from critical mention should someone have a genuine grievance. What sponsors should get for their money is the right to display their logo. That's it. Any kudos they get from helpful and informative activity on the board is obviously going to flow through as a positive to their reputation and their business. If the primary purpose is to help and inform, then more power to them. If the primary purpose is to pursuade and mislead, it will be seen through and hit for six.

In other words, as long as sponsorship or advertising does not interfere with the free flow of information without fear or favor, then let it be. Come one, come all. So far I haven't seen anything to be concerned about, but Ray's points were worth raising and this is probably an important conversation for the forum to have.

My 4c


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## Darren (25/5/06)

AngelTearsOnMyTongue said:


> *GET ON DOWN TO BERNI MAQUIGGANS.*
> 
> [post="129049"][/post]​



Could I use the wheels to mash in? Is the boot water-proof for a boil?

Ah, OK.

cheers


Darren


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## dane (25/5/06)

Steve Lacey said:


> The only thing that concerns me about suppliers on forums is when they are so narrowly focused on advancing their own agenda that they continually want to promote their own business or make biased self-serving statements within the general discourse. That is, posts that are not demonstrably to the benefit of the members of the forum.
> 
> If they are explicitly informing the board about wizz bang products they carry or specials they might be running or a new load of fresh widgets, that's all fine and above board, provided they do so without gilding the lilley; discussion boards are, afterall, about the exchange of information first and foremost.
> 
> ...



Great post Steve!

Just so it's on the record, Craftbrewer is 'a' AHB sponsor, it isn't the official or 'one and only' AHB sponsor. Craftbrewer just happened to be the first to contact me.

I am in discussions with a number of people about broadening the advertising on AHB. The retail section may have some fine tuning, but it anything it will just be some more clarification on what is appropriate and/or suitable for retailers to post in that forum. It will also control any 'customer to customer' public thread support, which if allowed, will go into a forum that wont be listed in the Recent Threads section.

The comments and constructive critisim that have been made in this thread are all being taken into account.

The number one goal of AHB is to provide a enjoyable community where people can share their thoughts, discussions, recipes and photos (well the latter two will get here one day) relating to beer brewing. Sponsors and Ad's will be apart of that but it wont invlove AHb aligning with someone in particular or pushing a particular brand of product.

:chug:


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## Darren (25/5/06)

Darren said:


> Probably a stupid question, Do you brew Dane? Never see any brew related posts from you!
> 
> cheers
> 
> ...




Whilst you are here :beer: 

cheers
Darren


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## jimmy01 (25/5/06)

I can't see the problem with Craftbrewer being allowed to post comments. Ross has always been the first to offer help to anyone in the brew community and his sponsorship helps AHB to maintain its service.

As to censorship, doesn't this thread prove that anyone can have their say and feel free to comment on site sponsors.

I'm sure if anyone starts blatantly promoting their own products that they'll soon get the short shift. The AHB forum members are not shrinking violets.

My 2c worth

Jimmy


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## Mr Bond (25/5/06)

This forum rocks,
Ross Rocks,

Advertising is advertising.Its every where.Its subtle ,its blatant,its insidious and pervasive.
I know it when I see it and i treat it accordingly.

If a thread is of a promotional nature and irrelevant to me I won't read it!
If its gonna benefit me and save me money I'll read it.
*The choice is mine!*

I will continue to exercise my rights as a consumer and shop widely and randomly.
The fact that purchasing good Quality hops from an AHB member for cheaper than I can buy locally ,and supporting AHB(as a tithe)is an added bonus.
Even if it wasn't on the board I'd visit the retail section to see what was up.

If it wasn't from the help of Gerard @ ND brewing I wouldnt have been able to fulfill my organic ale(1st AG dream).
This forum provided that link.

I will continue to support my LHBS(Brewmaker Holden Hill)and purchase 90% of my gear from there as the knowledge/advice ,support and friendship/loyalty factor is important,whilst picking up other bits'n 'pieces from other sources if it benefits me financially.


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## mika (25/5/06)

Angel Tears on My Tongue, please remove your post ! This is not the appropriate part of the forum, please limit all advertising to the retail section.

Dane really appears to be dodging the question


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## AngelTearsOnMyTongue (25/5/06)

mika_lika said:


> Angel Tears on My Tongue, please remove your post ! This is not the appropriate part of the forum, please limit all advertising to the retail section.
> 
> [post="129148"][/post]​



Bernie is not one to let an opportunity go by and since this thread is getting such great exposure for Craftbrewer, he thought he might just jump on the Bandwagon.

    

Dont forget......


GET ON DOWN TO BERNIES


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## peas_and_corn (26/5/06)

PistolPatch said:


> I seem to remember that the last time the bandwidth bill came in, it took a bit of concerted effort to raise the money. I just wonder how many active members make donations. Surely if every active member threw in $50 a year, that would make a huge difference? I just hope there aren't too many people taking the site for granted.
> 
> Doc and Dane, I really wish you'd throw a visa facility up as I can only use Paypal when I'm sober and it still takes me a while to remember my passwords etc! Visa is great for impulse buying! Also, moving the PayPal logo to the top of each page may help as I remember it took me some months to even notice it.
> 
> ...



Yay! I found it again.

I think I remember Dane saying that the revamp will have the paypal logo in a more prominent position


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## Linz (26/5/06)

Darren said:


> Probably a stupid question, Do you brew Dane? Never see any brew related posts from you!
> 
> cheers
> 
> ...




Ah, YUP !

What does it matter ??? Planning a mutiny on that??

I reckon Hes playing to His strength...and end of story.

meow.... h34r: :lol:


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## berazafi (26/5/06)

im just replying to see how long anti recent post can stay in the recent post section


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## Darren (26/5/06)

Linz said:


> Darren said:
> 
> 
> > Probably a stupid question, Do you brew Dane? Never see any brew related posts from you!
> ...




No mutiny Linz, just a curiosity. From the lack of response I assume it is a big NO.

cheers

Darren


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## berazafi (26/5/06)

Darren, if you look at his original posts you will find he was new brewer and looking for info, if that is so good on you Dane, as you have infomed not only yourself but many another brewer. Thanks for the site Dane


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## Ross (27/5/06)

I think this thread has served it's purpose now...  

May it rest in peace...


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## Darren (27/5/06)

Berazafi,

I agree the site is a great source of information. Just wondering how the brewing is coming along?

cheers

Darren


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## Jazzafish (27/5/06)

All I believe is that all posts should remain to topic and posted in the correct sections. Advertising or not, they all have their own space.

Darren, If you need to know if Dane brews, start a new thred... your getting famous at this sort of shit. Even if I have to go off topic myself to raise the point.


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