# All Taste The Same.



## Banjo (7/8/11)

G'day Folks, Banjo here!
I'm new too the forum and also too homebrewin.
So far i have made 10 or more batches of beer of different types. (All the Coopers kits, VB, Morgans etc)
All the beers i have made seem to taste the same, whether it's hopped or not, exept for a couple of dark ales (Coopers and Tooheys old).
The beers seem to be watery, and have a fruity/cidery taste, that my mate descibed as tasting like homebrew.
The head on the beer varies from bottle too bottle, and even if it has a good head, it dos'nt last long.
I have only made 1 batch of beer with suger, the rest have been 50/50 dex/malt.
The bottles I use are the old 800ml VB ones, that seem to be thicker than the new 750ml.
I take the time too clean the bottles and the fermenter properly, so i dont think infection is an issue.
The beer is drinkable, but could be heaps better.
I am just about too put down a Czech Pilsener, hopped with Saaz, but I'm not planning on wasting this one!
Any advice is most welcome.

Cheers Banjo


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## manticle (7/8/11)

Many ways to improve your beer.

The first two most important ones will be consistent temperature in the right range and cleanliness/sanitation.

Following that, using a fresh packet of yeast like Safale US05 and fresh kit tins with fresh malt will help.

What temperature are you fermenting at?

Are you sanitising as well as cleaning and if so, what are you using?


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## felten (7/8/11)

Whats your fermentation temperature like? Fermenting at high temp, like whats suggested on the cans, will cause the fruity and cidery tastes like you're describing.

18-20c is a good place to ferment most ales, keeping the temperature stable is good too, you don't want large temp swings.

[edit] I'm slow >_<


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## yum beer (7/8/11)

Hey Banjo, 

sounds to me that you are fermenting at too high a temp. that will give cidery tastes everytime and possibly why all your brews taste the same.Thats the 'homebrew' taste



You need to brew at around 18 degrees for ales...most kits come with an ale yeast even the lagers...Coopers Euro is an exception...
If you want to get an improvement get your temps right, use a fridge or water bath if needed.


Also make sure your beers are aging enough after bottling...I find most kits beers take at least 2 months to really develop....3 months even better.



Take some time and read up on here, ask questions if not sure about how to do things....A little knowledge will make a big difference, and when you start
to get it right you will make fantastic beers. :beer:


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## Nevalicious (7/8/11)

Banjo, as others have said, fermentation temperatures need to be in the correct range and without fluctuation. Ditching the kit yeast is the next thing I would do as for all intents and purposes, it's shit and will result in average at best beer. Apart from the above and what others have said re: sanitation (what exactly do you use to sanitise (have you heard of starsan?)) maybe try steeping of specialty grains. Along with small hop additions and ditching the kit yeast, the additions of proper amounts of specialty grain were some of the best ways I achieved decent kit beers...

Nev


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## Nick JD (7/8/11)

It's very difficult to make instant-beer-in-a-can taste like beer that's not instant. It can be done, and it can be coaxed to taste very, very nice ... but removing all those "homebrew" signatures is (IMHO) more difficult than making beer from barley and hops. I've found even the worst barley and hops beers can outcompete the best kit beers.

Question is: are you willing to put in a bit of time and effort to make your beer taste better than bought beer? It's doable...


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## parrja (7/8/11)

1. Time - When I was doing kit and kilo I always waited 12 weeks before drinking. Before then it always tasted a cydery and thin. After 12 weeks it sometimes tasted quite reasonable.
2. Temperature - as other have said a stable 18-20 degrees for ales is required. The damage is done temperature wise quite quickly so don't pitch at 26 thinking it'll be fine as temp will drop to 20 overnight. Pitch between 18-20 and keep it there.

I did a can of blackrock IPA + kilo of malt + hops recently was kept at 18 degrees and then filtered - was drinkable out of the fermenter and not one hint of "homebrew taste" and it is still getting better. So yes a good beer can be done this way for less than an hours work.


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## stux (7/8/11)

Remove the kit and kilo from the equation and try a fresh wort kit

Sanitation
Temperature Control
Good Yeast practices
Adequate fermentation time

Once you master those steps you will be making great beer

If you want to then take it a step further, get into all grain via BIAB for pure recipe control


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Stux said:


> Remove the kit and kilo from the equation and try a fresh wort kit
> 
> Sanitation
> Temperature Control
> ...



+1
Best answer from the entire thread.

Throw your can opener away and have a crack at making beer.


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## eamonnfoley (7/8/11)

Stux said:


> Remove the kit and kilo from the equation and try a fresh wort kit
> 
> Sanitation
> Temperature Control
> ...


One more thing just as important as above - water. If its full of chlorine or chloramines you are buggered no matter what you do. Try campden tablets or filter it. And if its very alkaline, you will struggle regardless and probably need distilled or spring water.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

foles said:


> One more thing just as important as above - water. If its full of chlorine or chloramines you are buggered no matter what you do. Try campden tablets or filter it. And if its very alkaline, you will struggle regardless and probably need distilled or spring water.




Bullshit. Why even mention this to a new brewer?
The Guys from Sydney, the water will be fine for whatever he's brewing.
Unless the guy is loading up his fermenters from the pool, there's no reason to fill his head with needless shit like this.

The Guy is new to HB.
He's probably come from drinking Tooheys, Heinekin, Hahn etc.
He is tasting the Home brew 'twang' that comes with opening a can of goop and adding water and sugar, or the brewers equivelent of 'international roast' coffee.
He will either quit brewing or he will learn to hide it with a shitload of hops and specialty malts and convince himself that his beer is awesome.

Then he will go to All Grain and realise that he's been full of his own shit the whole time.


Banjo,

Grab a *Fresh Wort Kit* from your home brew shop and start there. You might pay a little more, but your beer will be a whole lot better anything that comes in a can.

Cheers,

BeerFingers


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## eamonnfoley (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Bullshit. Why even mention this to a new brewer?
> The Guys from Sydney, the water will be fine for whatever he's brewing.
> Unless the guy is loading up his fermenters from the pool, there's no reason to fill his head with needless shit like this.
> 
> ...



Maybe Sydney is ok, and he wont have a problem. But try doing the same in some parts of Perth where the tap water reeks of chlorine. A campden tablet in your brewing water certainly can't hurt no matter where you are.

No need for the aggressive response.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

foles said:


> Maybe Sydney is ok, and he wont have a problem. But try doing the same in some parts of Perth where the tap water reeks of chlorine.
> 
> No need for the aggressive response.




Right, but the OP is in Sydney not Perth.

This now renders both your posts null and void.


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## glassgrenade (7/8/11)

I didn't make too many malt extract brews for this very reason. When i was doing extracts the ingredients available to me were quite basic. There's only so many ways that you can put together light malt, dark malt and dextrose. I played around with different yeasts and hops and this did introduce a variety of flavours, but these flavours were always built on that same base of malt extract and dextrose. I tried a minimash and was so pleased i went to a double batch 3V all grain system. However i've since converted to BIAB. 138L of beer in the same amount of time as it used to take me to make 46L, why wouldn't I?! :beer: 

Back on topic, something that you could try if you don't want to buy a whole heap of equipment is a minimash in a 20L pot. I just went and grabbed my first brew book and found this recipe for you, its the recipe i was talking about above that convinced me to go all grain.

You need
1.7kg coopers cervesa (throw away the yeast!) or some other light coloured coopers kit

Grain (buy them crushed from craftbrewer)
1.5kg munich I
200g of wheat malt (this will sort out your head retention)
200g of sugar
20g of amber malt (sub for 100g of med crystal if you can't get this)

Hops
15g of cascade or amarillo or galaxy or Bsaaz or EKG In my recipe i used cascade.


IN the 20L pot add half full of water. Bring to around 72C. Add a grain bag (just a piece of swiss voille material, i used an old sheet) and put in your grain giving it a good stir. The temp should be above 63 but below 68. Soak for an hour at this temp. Pull out grain after and hour.

Starting boiling it. Boil for 50mins. Throw in 15g of cascade or amarillo and boil for another 10mins. Turn off heat and add coopers kit. 

Meanwhile your sanitised fermenter is half full of really cold water. Add the stuff from the pot and top up to 23L. Hopefully the temp will be below 25C. If so throw in some US05 and ferment @ 18C. If not throw it in the fridge and add yeast as soon as its below 25C. You want to get it to 18C as quickly as possible otherwise you'll get that flavour people call the 'hombrew' flavour.

Using some grain is about the only way that i can see of introdcing some new flavours into your beer, without it that malt base is always going to be the same. Even soaking a little crystal will make a huge difference. If it were i'd be doing an order through craftbrewer for some starsan and some grain. Then get one of those temp controllers off ebay (STC1000) and a bar fridge. You'll be making geat tasting beer in no time mate.


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## eamonnfoley (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Right, but the OP is in Sydney not Perth.
> 
> This now renders both your posts null and void.



Gees - somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning! I still stand by the fact a campden tablet in your brewing water (if your not filtering) is a good idea (insurance policy against chlorine). Surely you can't claim to have intimate knowledge of the water supplies across the whole Sydney metropolitan area. 

Anyway, I'll leave this one alone now, so no need to take another shot at me.


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## Braumoasta (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Right, but the OP is in Sydney not Perth.
> 
> This now renders both your posts null and void.



Ease up buddy. The guy has just offered a suggestion from his personal experience, no need to get so fired up.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

foles said:


> Gees - somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning! I still stand by the fact a campden tablet in your brewing water (if your not filtering) is a good idea (insurance policy against chlorine). Surely you can't claim to have intimate knowledge of the water supplies across the whole Sydney metropolitan area.
> 
> Anyway, I'll leave this one alone now, so no need to take another shot at me.



Nope, woke up feeling great.
You can stand by whatever fact you like, im not disputing the benefits of a campden tablet, im disputing the relevance of your post's in this thread.
but to somewhat take you out of the equation since you're feeling a little bit sensitive

let's make it a hypothetical then.....kinda

So a new brewer comes along and is keen to make beer but is using extract.
He post's on a brewing forum stating that he's a new brewer and is having flavour issues.

Along come a bunch of guys keen to help out but want to spew a whole pile of data about water chemistry an array of additives, telling him to start steeping grains and spouting a barrage of shit that the new brewer knows nothing about.
New brewer is overwhelmed with irrelevant shit that confuses him and thinks to himself 'too hard' and stops brewing.

The bunch of guys are happy because they get to spew their 'knowledge of brewing' (AKA reciting someone else's post) to not just the OP but anyone else that reads the thread and believe they have contributed to the brewing community. 
But they have bewildered someone who was keen to brew and originally started the thread, but due to the bullshit, has now put it in the too hard basket.

So, To the OP who started this thread to source information:

Tins of goop will taste like shit.
You can add hops and steep grains to hide the shitty goop twang but it will never be as you imagine.

Throw away your can opener and buy a Fresh Wort Kit. This is essentially an All Grain beer that has not been fermented.
All you need to do is top it up with water and throw in some yeast.
very similar to cans, only it tastes a shitload better.

Once you get the fermenting process down, then you can look at dry hopping and adding differen't flavours through malts and yeast.
Once you get steeping grains down, it's only a small step to All Grain where you can make the beer you imagine.

Cheers,

BF


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Braumoasta said:


> Ease up buddy. The guy has just offered a suggestion from his personal experience, no need to get so fired up.



Who's fired up?

The suggestion was irrelevant to the thread and did not have anything to do with OP.

Cheers,

BF


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## Silo Ted (7/8/11)

foles said:


> One more thing just as important as above - water. If its full of chlorine or chloramines you are buggered no matter what you do. Try campden tablets or filter it. And if its very alkaline, you will struggle regardless and probably need distilled or spring water.






BeerFingers said:


> Bullshit. Why even mention this to a new brewer?



Exactly ! WTF is that sort of information for a new brewer doing kits ? There's a dozen aspects he should focus on, and water profile isn't one of them.


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## Braumoasta (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Tins of goop will taste like shit.
> You can add hops and steep grains to hide the shitty goop twang but it will never be as you imagine.



All of my beers have been brewed from kits and they have all come out as I imagined. To my palate the beer has tasted fine, and to me is better than most reasonably priced commercial beers which I can buy. You might not like the taste of kit beers, but I don't care, I'm not brewing for you. Many people brew with kits and love the results, so to make such generalisations is ridiculous.


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## eamonnfoley (7/8/11)

Silo Ted said:


> Exactly ! WTF is that sort of information for a new brewer doing kits ? There's a dozen aspects he should focus on, and water profile isn't one of them.



Not water profile - simply chlorine in water. It is important. Maybe you have beautiful spring water out of your tap and have never come across it. But it a common problem with a lot of extract brewers. Take your blinkers off, beer is ninety something % water. It needs to be fit for brewing. And yes, the OP may have great clean water and not need this advice. But somebody elsewhere may benefit from it when he reads the thread.

And the advice to throw away can the can opener isn't great. Fresh wort kits make the beer almost as expensive as buying from the shop. Good beer can be made from extract if the extract is fresh, you have a good fermentation, sanitation, and dare I say it - non chlorinated water


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Braumoasta said:


> All of my beers have been brewed from kits



Brew an All grain....



Braumoasta said:


> To my palate the beer has tasted fine, and to me is better than most reasonably priced commercial beers which I can buy. You might not like the taste of kit beers, but I don't care, I'm not brewing for you. Many people brew with kits and love the results,



And all the people who say this are Extract brewers.
I don't know of ONE person, not ONE, that has made an all grain beer and said to themselves; "taste's like shit, im going back to cans". 
So dont kid yourself, your Extract beer tastes like AG beer that's been strained through an Incontinent 80 year old womans panty-hose and then dry hopped in an unwashed footy sock and fermented with yeast from a 'badly packed kebab'.
Brew an AG and you'll understand, AND agree.
The End.



Braumoasta said:


> so to make such generalisations is ridiculous.



Says someone who has never brewed an all grain beer but seems to be convinced his extract beer is "fine".

Sorry, but I came from K&K and took all the steps to All Grain and I would rather drink a Super Dry than your instant beer.

Cheers,

BF


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## manticle (7/8/11)

While if all other things are equal, I reckon grain will always win over syrup, if you can't get basic fermentation practices worked out, then it doesn't matter what you use.

I've tasted some pretty bad AG beers (some of them being my own failed ones) and some pretty decent kit/extract.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

foles said:


> But somebody elsewhere may benefit from it when he reads the thread.



Why not post in reply to him on how to correctly and vigorously strangle your one eyed, purple headed, womb ferret?
Somebody elsewhere may benefit from it when he reads the thread.

From My Previous Post to you:


> The bunch of guys are happy because they get to spew their 'knowledge of brewing' (AKA reciting someone else's post) to not just the OP but anyone else that reads the thread and believe they have contributed to the brewing community.
> But they have bewildered someone who was keen to brew and originally started the thread, but due to the bullshit, has now put it in the too hard basket.






foles said:


> And the advice to throw away can the can opener isn't great. Fresh wort kits make the beer almost as expensive as buying from the shop. Good beer can be made from extract if the extract is fresh, you have a good fermentation, sanitation, and dare I say it - non chlorinated water



LOL - Fresh Extract...
Processed food, drinks, powders, syrups, etc 
Vs
The Actual product they're trying to emulate...

...No, You're right!, there is nothing that comes in a can that isn't just as good or better than if it was made fresh. :blink: 

Cheers.....LMAO

BeerFingers


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## eamonnfoley (7/8/11)

You are a loser mate. Twisting words in order to be a troll. Fresh extract can make good beer - thats it. Maybe not as good as as fresh wort, not better than all grain. My point was fresh wort is expensive, and cans of goo can make decent beer if done properly.


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## bradsbrew (7/8/11)

Welcome to AHB Banjo :blink: . The first 5 posts are on the money. Yes full mash and Fresh Wort Kits are great. But you can make a decent beer with a kit and some attention to detail. You will be suprised how consistent temperature control and using a better yeast will improve your brews. IMO I would concentrate on that before spending a heap of cash setting up a Full mash system.

Cheers


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## goomboogo (7/8/11)

Aren't most malt extracts made from 100% malted barley? If so, a beer made solely with such an extract would be all-grain beer.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

foles said:


> You are a loser mate.Twisting words in order to be a troll.



You're lack of understanding words, and having them twist up in your skull has nothing to do with me.
Im currently drinking an ordinary and plain "bottle filler" APA that I made from grain, hops, water and yeast and it stands, *head and shoulders* over any extract beer you could possibly imagine to make.
So to keep it in the theme of what we're discussing here, I believe, I am the winner :icon_cheers: 



foles said:


> Fresh extract can make good beer - thats it. Maybe not as good as as fresh wort, not better than all grain. My point was fresh wort is expensive, and cans of goo can make decent beer if done properly.



Extract is not fresh. Maybe 'Freshly extracted' and 'Freshly' placed into a can and then 'Freshly' exposed to a range of fluctuating temperatures from the manufacturer to be 'Freshly' placed on your supermarket shelf, i'll give you that.
It's nowhere near as good as a fresh wort Kit and it's not even in the same game as AG.
Yes, fresh wort is up there in price compared to the tins of goop you make. But then again, you get what you pay for.
Can's of goo can make a beer, but so can Lion Nathan and the Fosters group.
And I would rather have one of theirs than the reconstituted ball sweat that you make.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

goomboogo said:


> Aren't most malt extracts made from 100% malted barley? If so, a beer made solely with such an extract would be all-grain beer.




That's like saying: Soaking a chunk off beef Jerky in water overnight makes a Steak.


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## keifer33 (7/8/11)




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## Braumoasta (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> That's like saying: Soaking a chunk off beef Jerky in water overnight makes a Steak.




No I would say it's more like if you had a salt water solution, you evaporated some of the water off to leave a saltier solution, you then add water and your back to the original solution.


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## Braumoasta (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Brew an All grain....



I've tasted all grain beers, and no doubt in my mind they tasted great. The beers I brew from kits, also taste great to me. I've also seen many home brew competition results with plenty of kit beers scoring in the upper regions of the scoring range. But I guess you choose to think that these results don't exist, as all grain must always be better than a kit, and the judges must have been bribed or mentally retarded for such results to occur.


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## goomboogo (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> That's like saying: Soaking a chunk off beef Jerky in water overnight makes a Steak.


I see now. You don't mean AG, you mean MYO (mash your own).
Back to the topic; try the things mentioned in the first half a dozen posts and there should be some improvement in your beers.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Braumoasta said:


> No I would say it's more like if you had a salt water solution, you evaporated some of the water off to leave a saltier solution, you then add water and your back to the original solution.




But, imagine if _you_ could make your own salt water solution in the first place and then used it straight away...


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (7/8/11)

@OP - first few threads are on the ball.

The cidery, nasty tastes and the "homebrew" taste and the fact that it all tastes the same are all products of poor yeast control.

Poor yeast control, in your instance, arises from 2 things:

1. The packet the tin has is generally poorly handled, and not enough. a 12g packet of US05 or Nottingham or whatever other dried yeast, is usually better handled (owing to the fact that most brew shops know to do at least this, whereas big w doesn't) and adequate in size (12g is great, 6-7 is not enough - asking 6-7g of yeast to ferment over 20L of beer is slave labour and yeast becomes stressed.

2. Temp control - despite the instructions on the packet (something conspiracy theorists think are designed to initiate failure, therefore get brewers back to commercial beer), 25-30 deg is waaaaaaay too high. US05 for instance has a recommended range of 18-21 deg, Nottingham 14-20. I like brewing at the lower end of the scale, as it throws less homebrew cider. This is another reason to buy proper yeast - the packet will tell you the recommended range.

What you need to remember is yeast eats wort (that sugary malt water) and farts co2 and craps alcohol. It is therefore the most important thing in your brew. It needs to be treated with respect and allowed to do its thing under ideal circumstances. After all, why get sanitation perfect (one ideal aspect of yeast happiness), if you don't get the rest sorted.

As for the :icon_offtopic: stuff - I don't normally like or agree with expletive laden, attacking posts - but Beerfingers is right. Don't talk about water chlorine, when it appears that "cidery taste" points perfectly to the symptoms every new brewer suffers, all of which are caused by obeying the instructions of a kit. Chlorine issues will come later in his brewing career.

And kit/extract beer is never (all other things being equal) as good as AG beer. All AGers have brewed extract/kit (myself for 11 years, been AG for 2 years = 13yr total brewing), but no extract/kit brewers have ever seriously done an AG beer, otherwise they wouldn't be extract/kit brewers anymore. It's not being pompous, just fact - all of us have done the kit/extract thing, tried AG, seem the massive gulf in quality and stuck with AG. We hope you will join us, but still respect your right not to.

Goomba


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## Braumoasta (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> But, imagine if _you_ could make your own salt water solution in the first place and then used it straight away...



But why would I bother if I'm well happy with the results I'm having, and it's also cheaper and faster??


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Braumoasta said:


> I've tasted all grain beers, and no doubt in my mind they tasted great. The beers I brew from kits, also taste great to me. I've also seen many home brew competition results with plenty of kit beers scoring in the upper regions of the scoring range. But I guess you choose to think that these results don't exist, as all grain must always be better than a kit, and the judges must have been bribed or mentally retarded for such results to occur.



I didn't say taste one, I said "brew an All Grain"

No, there are some brewers that have entered comps with Extract beers, blended with a specialty grain mash, 4 hop additions done over a 60min boil that have scored well.

But lets see how you go with a coopers kit, BE2 and a 15g pouch of POR.

2 completely different animals.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

goomboogo said:


> I see now. You don't mean AG, you mean MYO (mash your own).
> Back to the topic; try the things mentioned in the first half a dozen posts and there should be some improvement in your beers.



As opposed to mashing someone elses?

Have a look in the Forum, do you see a MYO section or a AG section?

:huh:


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## big78sam (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Nope, woke up feeling great.
> You can stand by whatever fact you like, im not disputing the benefits of a campden tablet, im disputing the relevance of your post's in this thread.
> but to somewhat take you out of the equation since you're feeling a little bit sensitive
> 
> ...




To use your own logic...

"New kit brewer just wants advice how to improve his kit/extract brews.

He gets told all kit beers are terrible and no matter what you do it will always be sub-standard. The only way to make good beer at home is to move into all grain or buy fresh wort kits. New brewer perhaps doesn't have the money to spend $50 plus extra for yeast for each brew or likes the convenience of kits.

New brewer gets discouraged and thinks to himself 'too hard' and stops brewing."

You can make good beer with kits. The first few brewers give you the good advice on temperature and yeast. You can make good beer with kits and if one day you move to all grain or can afford Fresh Wort Kits you'll probably make better beer.

EDIT - I am an AG brewer and agree once you are ready to go AG you will find it better. It was just the comment that all kit/extract beer is terrible that I have a problem with. This is not true and has the ability to turn off someone who's just not ready for AG.


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## Filby (7/8/11)

Beerfingers is my new hero! Seriously mate, you are spot on, but other people just don't want to admit that cans of goo are, at best, a bang for buck homebrew option. Most people, including myself, get into homebrewing to make cheap beer but for a lot of people this quickly changes to making excellent quality beer.

The best analogy I can come up with for extract beers versus all grain is 'orange cordial versus fresh orange juice'. Sure the cordial is drinkable and cheap but the fresh juice is a hell of a lot nicer and worth the extra effort to squeeze yourself.

My first homebrews were kit beers all done with correct temp control, good yeast, fresh can, correct sugars and steeped grains...still had that twang so I moved straight to allgrain BIAB and for the 40% increase in cost and time per brew the beer was 1000% better. mmmmm Little Fella's Pale Ale. Yum!


Fil

PS on average, it costs me $28 to do 23lt of AG beer. Still very cheap compared to buying 3 slabs of beer.


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## parrja (7/8/11)

There is no doubt that you can make something that tastes better than VB (is that just shit beer watered down?) from a kit...and for less than $10 a carton.

Its a good starting point and I'm sure plenty of people don't feel the need to go past this point. Depends how interesting you find it and how much time you have.


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## Effect (7/8/11)

big78sam said:


> To use your own logic...
> 
> "New kit brewer just wants advice how to improve his kit/extract brews.
> 
> ...



+1

Or other new to brewing people come on here and have a read of this thread and get put off.

Beerfingers, this brewing gig is a slippery slope. You only need to give those new to brewing that are wanting a little better quality than what they are making only the slightest of pushes in the right direction. If everything goes right, he will be at a brew day of someone local to him within 12 months. That is when you can hammer home AG like you are doing right now. I agree that AG makes far greater beer than kit beers (I delved straight into AG because I knew kits were shit), however, a brewing jedi takes time to grow and learn before we can move him to the darkside!

:icon_cheers: 

Cheers


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## loikar (7/8/11)

big78sam said:


> To use your own logic...
> 
> "New kit brewer just wants advice how to improve his kit/extract brews.
> 
> ...



Yep, a slab of VB is what $40? so for $10 more you can have 2.5 cartons of something that's almost as good as it?
Spend $60 on a FWK and he can have 2.5 cartons of something that's waaaaay better?

Look, as I have said, you get a can of unhopped LME, some steeped specialty grains, at least 3 hop additions over a 60min boil, sure, you can make something that is drinkable above VB. so agreed, you CAN make a drinkable beer from extract.

But, if your sitting there, typing this to me, with a tin of Coopers Cerveza and a kilo of some Dex\LDME blend bubbling away in your shed, I don't care how you control your temp, or what yeast you use, it's going to have more twang than Willie Nelson falling into a banjo display.


----------



## manticle (7/8/11)

And if you have 30 L of AG wort that has been made by a goose and is fermented at 34 degrees then bottled at 1022, it's going to taste rottener than Gilligan's arse crack.

FWK is a good compromise, I agree but it still needs to be fermented and conditioned properly and the brewer still needs to develop an understanding of how that happens if they want to make good beers, of any kind, in future.

Just making your ingredients good doesn't make your beer good any more than burning a piece of aged porterhouse won't make a good steak dish no matter how free range or well marbled the cow.


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## BigDaddy (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> That's like saying: Soaking a chunk off beef Jerky in water overnight makes a Steak.




This is the funniest thing I have read this week! - Something tells me it won't be the last though.

I agree though, I too am now producing WAY better beers after moving to AG....Looking back, I wonder why I didnt make the move sooner.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Braumoasta said:


> But why would I bother if I'm well happy with the results I'm having, and it's also cheaper and faster??




It's not cheaper.
I can brew an 25L AG beer for $30.
You might be able to brew an extract for $20

but who's are you going to prefer to drink?


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## loikar (7/8/11)

manticle said:


> And if you have 30 L of AG wort that has been made by a goose and is fermented at 34 degrees then bottled at 1022, it's going to taste rottener than Gilligan's arse crack.
> 
> FWK is a good compromise, I agree but it still needs to be fermented and conditioned properly and the brewer still needs to develop an understanding of how that happens if they want to make good beers, of any kind, in future.
> 
> Just making your ingredients good doesn't make your beer good any more than burning a piece of aged porterhouse won't make a good steak dish no matter how free range or well marbled the cow.




I think we were running with the "with all things being equal" thing still buddy.

But fair point


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## manticle (7/8/11)

I may have missed it but the 'all things being equal' caveat was first mentioned by me and was ignored which makes me feel sad and inadequate.

Help the new brewer with gentle introduction to the world of making beer. S/he can make his kits better than they currently are and develop his/her beermaking to whatever level s/he chooses 

In both of our opinions a well made AG wort, fermented and conditioned properly will win hands down but there's lots of other factors, especially when just starting out. If a new brewer can experience how much better they can make a kit than thin cidery water then they MAY get a hankering to get on and make something more delicious. For some it's jump in and learn to swim, others like to paddle a bit first.


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## TmC (7/8/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> What you need to remember is yeast eats wort (that sugary malt water) and farts co2 and craps alcohol.



I only got my head around how this worked when i watched brewmasters. 

In regards to OP - Maybe you can get in touch with one of the members near you to maybe go over and watch them on a brewday? They might be able to point you in the right direction and/or give you some tips.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

manticle said:


> I may have missed it but the 'all things being equal' caveat was first mentioned by me and was ignored which makes me feel sad and inadequate.
> 
> Help the new brewer with gentle introduction to the world of making beer. S/he can make his kits better than they currently are and develop his/her beermaking to whatever level s/he chooses
> 
> In both of our opinions a well made AG wort, fermented and conditioned properly will win hands down but there's lots of other factors, especially when just starting out. If a new brewer can experience how much better they can make a kit than thin cidery water then they MAY get a hankering to get on and make something more delicious. For some it's jump in and learn to swim, others like to paddle a bit first.



Manticle,

I can rememeber a post (years ago) where your First AG boil was on a wood fired Webber...
With that in mind....how hard was it?
Honestly?

It's not hard, if you can make porridge and keep it warm, you can AG brew.

There's this whole thing around AG brewing that you have to earn it, that you have to start at kits and earn your AG wings.
It's all bullshit. Soooo many AG brewers say "I wish I had moved to AG a long time ago".

You can brew 5 litres at a time on the kitchen stove, it doesn't have to be a 23L volume.
It might be a longer process, but honestly, there's a lot less dicking around with AG as there is with Kits&Bits.

As I said, I have never heard of ANYONE who brewed an all grain beer and said: "bugger this crap, I'm going back to cans of goop".

So, these people who say that their extract brews are great, are wrong. If they brewed an All Grain, the way beer has been made for centuries, the way beer is supposed to be made. they would know what Im on about.

The problem is, these people who brew and drink these extract beers are proud of their efforts and don't like being told that their beer really isn't as good as they keep telling themselves it is.

SO, back to the original Post:

Your beer tastes like shit because it's been processed in a factory like everything else that comes in tins.
Regulating your temp will help it, hitting it with hops will help it, steeping it with specialty grains will help it
But you will never get rid of that twang!

It's not hard to brew an AG beer, you can do it on your kitchen stove albeit 5 or 10 litres at a time.
Throw away your can opener, find a recipe and scale it down to what equipment you have.

If you need help and advice, let me or someone else know who's already AG'ing.

It doesn't have to be a science, it's just beer!
Just make beer, forget about your water chemistry, forget about your whirfloc and campden tablets.
heat some grain in water, hold it at 65 for an hour, drain out the wort, boil that for an hour, throw in some hops at the beginning middle and end, chill it down to 19c and keep it there, throw that in a fermenter, throw in some yeast, leave it for 2 weeks, throw that into a bottle with some sugar, leave that for 2 weeks and drink the shit.

It's not hard!

Regardless of what anyone says; Extract beers are shit compared to an All Grain brew, no matter how much you dress it up.
Your can of coopers pale and your BE1 is like the maggie 2min noodles of brewing, only the noodles taste better.

Cheers,

BeerFingers


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## manticle (7/8/11)

Took me while to get there, took a lot of reading, making mistakes, asking stupid questions, feeling like a goose, lateral thinking, buying bits of cheaparse equipment in the hope it would serve a purpose etc etc.

I loved the process, just as much as I loved the processes involved with moving from KK with an extra kilo of sugar (genuine mistake) to trying hop teabags, to adding lactose to stouts to steeping grain (uncracked first time) to cracking grain with a rolling pin to realising the heat belt wasn't a good thing, to making extracts and partials in 2 small $3 eskies to making AG on the weber as you remember, to getting a fridge for yeast and hops and cold conditioning, to making a decent 3 V system, to reculturing yeast, to growing hops, to making aged sour/funked beers to making water adjustments to step mashing and decoctions, to whatever odd obsessive point in the process I'm at now.

Process is equally as enjoyable as good beer and even the shit beers I've made have been a learning process that's enabled me to make better beer.

I'm not suggesting you have to earn wings - not at all. Jump into AG straight away if that floats your boat - just don't think that being made from grain is the holy grail. Learn your fundamental processes and make beer whichever way you're comfortable with. If that's AG for your first or second then great. If not - learn the improvements and steps to make further improvements until you either are happy with your beer or you go full mash (and are hopefully happy with your beer).

AG isn't hard, in and of itself, you're right. It's also a shit ton of fun and if I could, I'd see every serious beer brewer make at least one batch and see how happy they were when they cracked the first one.

However good beer is a matter of degrees and good sanitation, good yeast handling practices and good fermentation control are fundamental. In my opinion and experience, while extremely important, good fresh ingredients are only worth using when you know how to use them properly.

My main point though is that even fermenting a fresh wort kit (easiest thing in the world for the best result) badly is probably worse than fermenting an OK kit with adjustments properly.


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## Synthetase (7/8/11)

manticle said:


> My main point though is that even fermenting a fresh wort kit (easiest thing in the world for the best result) badly is probably worse than fermenting an OK kit with adjustments properly.



Especially given the price difference.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Synthetase said:


> Especially given the price difference.



Did you read anything at all?
Anything?


----------



## drew9242 (7/8/11)

Sounds similar to my progression manticle. I have been tempted to try a kit beer again to see how it will turn out, now that i have better fermentation practices. I reckon it would be a interesting exercise, maybe one day. 

As for the OP, if you want to make good beer that you mat goes wow that is good. And you are ready to take brewing to the next level with time and dedication. Well i would say just do a bit of reading on the net and jump into the deep end. Nothing beats making beer from scratch and then enjoying it and the end of all your hard work. As beer fingers has said it isn't rocket science. You can make it rocket science but it doesn't need to be.


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## Nick JD (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> ....you can do it on your kitchen stove albeit 5 or 10 litres at a time.



Or 20 litres...


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## Margrethe (7/8/11)

> But, if your sitting there, typing this to me, with a tin of Coopers Cerveza and a kilo of some Dex\LDME blend bubbling away in your shed, I don't care how you control your temp, or what yeast you use, it's going to have more twang than Willie Nelson falling into a banjo display.



I won't bore with details, but I disagree with this.


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## eamonnfoley (7/8/11)

+1 @Margrethe

Listen to the Brew Strong episode regarding extract. Jamil seems to think extract can be pretty good.


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## [email protected] (7/8/11)

To the OP, dont be put off by any of this, its just people who are passionate about beer.
Some very good info all over this site sometimes yo just have to sift through lots of stuff.

But yeah def get your temp under control - not wild swings, within a couple of degrees, pitch the right amounts of healthy yeast and clean clean clean. 
No matter what ingredients you use you will make something pretty good if you pay close attention to these things.

Others make some pretty good points, passionate augments, myself i did one kit and thought this is crap. But then again i am a bit of a make everything from scratch kinda guy, i do like 2 min noodles though. I like growing my own foods too.

I think there is a lot of emphasis put on batch sizes? hmmm , but if you want to try from scratch, beefingers makes some good points, most people already have some pots in their kitchen which would allow them to make some AG wort be it 5 or 10 L who cares, boil it add hops, then ferment in your existing fermented and pitch the right amount of healthy yeast,and keep those temps stable, bottle it after 2 weeks, wait another 3 or 4 weeks and drink away, see if it get you hooked and then you can start the NEVER ENDING process of refinement.

cheers


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## loikar (7/8/11)

manticle said:


> AG isn't hard, in and of itself, you're right. It's also a shit ton of fun and if I could, I'd see every serious beer brewer make at least one batch and see how happy they were when they cracked the first one.
> 
> My main point though is that even fermenting a fresh wort kit (easiest thing in the world for the best result) badly is probably worse than fermenting an OK kit with adjustments properly.



Yep, agreed
So regardless if you're AG'ing or K&K the fundamentals of brewing will stay the same blah blah, so lets forget about the fermenting process for a sec because I think everyone agrees if you fk up a ferment, it's going to taste shit no matter where the wort came from, and the same with cleaning and sanitation etc etc. You can learn all that while making FWK and don't have to subject yourself to shitty tins of goop that any retard can add water and sugar to.

So with all things being equal...

This thread has turned into a AG and Extract thread.
And I'm finding that everyone who AG's agrees that they would not go back to extract and agree that AG beers a superior to extract beers. I also find that all the extract brewers who have never brewed an AG are the ones raving on about how good their extracts are.
Am I the only one who's got the brass to say what everyone else thinks?

I, myself, much like you and many others have come up through the tin and kilo of table sugar, and are now AG'ing and playing with adjuncts, yeasts and decoctions etc.

I know, that when I was all extract brewing, I thought my beers were fkn awesome, and I could drink them all day.
The sad truth, in hindsight was that they were not a patch on the beers I'm making now.
And Manticle, as much as I like you, if you were to say that your extracts were as good as or better than your AG's, I would out you as a liar.

Unless you're an Extract brewer, who went AG, and then decided that the extract was better and wen't back...
I'm sorry to tell you, but your extract beers are shit.

So My Main Point Is...

Why even do tins?
Folks,
All Grain is not hard, find the biggest pot in the drawer and have a crack.
Dont post here raving on about how good your tin of beer concentrate and a kilo of Dex is, because it's not, come to terms with that...plain and simple, it's not.
if you don't think im right, make an all grain brew and prove me wrong.

Cheers

BeerFinger


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Margrethe said:


> I won't bore with details, but I disagree with this.




Are you an all grain brewer?


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> Or 20 litres...




If you have the equipment, make it 50 Litres...


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (7/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> Or 20 litres...



+2, especially when some goose comes along and creates the illegitimate love-child of the stovetop method!

I do up to 30L on the stovetop. I could do more (Maxi-BIAB x 2 pots), but I just haven't bothered yet.

Goomba


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## Lodan (7/8/11)

Why can't we all just get along?!
 

Banjo there are some good points if you can pick through the arguments.
Check the article section here for some additional tips

Kits & Extracts
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...o&showcat=4


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## manticle (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Yep, agreed
> So regardless if you're AG'ing or K&K the fundamentals of brewing will stay the same blah blah, so lets forget about the fermenting process for a sec because I think everyone agrees if you fk up a ferment, it's going to taste shit no matter where the wort came from,



That's just it though - everyone agrees who already knows. You and I know- Op maybe doesn't. This thread is a new brewer wondering why their beer tastes thin and cidery. Chances are, it's a ferment issue, specifically temperature, that is having this effect. Grabbing an FWK without this information will be of no use to them.

Fermentation issues are exactly what is relevant to the thread or at least to the OP.

If the OP wants to go AG and gets this concept then Nick's stovetop thread is probably the easiest demystification of things.

A lot of new kit brewers don't even realise there is such a thing as making beer from scratch and it can seem daunting until it's done. Telling them their beer is shit might make them throw up their hands and think '****'n beer nerds grumble grumble I just want cheap beer arrogant prick grumble grumble'.

I would prefer people got things, slowly if they need to rather than not get them at all. If they can jump straight in then good on them. If they can't, no worries.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Hey BF did you go to private school by any chance? :icon_cheers:



No mate, School was boring h34r:


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## loikar (7/8/11)

manticle said:


> That's just it though - everyone agrees who already knows. You and I know- Op maybe doesn't. This thread is a new brewer wondering why their beer tastes thin and cidery. Chances are, it's a ferment issue, specifically temperature, that is having this effect. Grabbing an FWK without this information will be of no use to them.
> 
> Fermentation issues are exactly what is relevant to the thread or at least to the OP.
> 
> ...



Nice Dodge :icon_cheers: 

What's the difference between getting things slowly on a shitty tin of goop and a FWK?
a hot brewed FWK is still going to taste better than a hot brewd tin of goop.

Which is worse?
Telling them their beer is shit and they should be making it from grain
or; Telling them their shit beer is nice?

As a brewer, which one would you prefer to hear?


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## manticle (7/8/11)

Dodge smodge.


Actually the difference is that if you lead someone to believe that AG or FWK or whatever is super and they make shit beer with it then they develop no understanding of how home brew can be as good as many commercial beers and better than some of them. Conclusion might be that AG is a waste of time considering it's not much better/cheaper than basic KK.

If you tell me 'brew an FWK - it will be great' and I do it badly and it's horrible - what will I think? A bit like getting a Carlton Dry buddy to try a craft brew finally, after months of haggling and it's oxidised. Boring mate goes straight back to Carlton Dry with the added brick wall obstacle of knowing "tried that shit mate, fuckn poof drink tastes like a rank sink fulla dishes and costs $20 a six pack to boot'.

Tell me my beer is shit because it's been brewed too hot, with a crap yeast AND with condensed, processed ingredients. Help me understand why.

Tell me I can improve it by fermenting cooler, with a good yeast AND using better ingredients. Tell me it's not hard and give me a place where I can start researching.

I don't disagree with you that a FWK is the easiest way of turning out a commercial quality beer at home with no fuss. I don't disagree with you that good mash beer is head and shoulders above good extract/kit beer.

I don't believe that the response, or all the hoo-ha that it has entailed will serve a new brewer including the OP particularly well.

Admittedly if someone asked me how to make their mayonnaise in a jar taste good I'd probably answer: 'by throwing it out and making it properly from eggs, vinegar and oil' but we all suffer from occasional hypocrisy.


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## Thirsty Boy (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Are you an all grain brewer?



I am, and i disagree with it too.

However i dont disagree with the notion that you are able to make better beers as you progress up what is a pretty traditional ladder of brewing. Straight K&K -> kits and bits -> extract -> steeping grains -> minimash etc etc or something like that.

But i also get that not only are there people out there who not only aren't at the "good" end of that scale, but who will never want to be there. The proecss just doesn't interest them, the price of entry doesn't interest them, they just (horror of horrors) like the way they brew now. And IMO anyway if you cant make a pretty decent drop of beer from a can of goo and a bag of stuff from woollies, then you have bugger all chance of doing it from grain.

I dont for a miniute suggest that the beers will be as good as those produced by a talented AG brewer, but there is no reason at all why they should be actually bad.

My brother in law's dad is a K&K man - he knows i an a more advanced brewer and likes my beer... But has absolutely no interest in advancing his process in the direction of grain brewing. He asked for some advice about how his beers tasted and what he could do to improve them and his consistency - but made it clear he was totally uninterested in using grain, extract, adding more than a teabag type hop character. Bubt if i could think of things to help him improve his brewing, without changing the basic way he brews... Could i make some suggestions please??

So i wrote this for him

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A2j_MO6...c/edit?hl=en_US

Its just a collection of "good practise" and its never going to turn a K&K beer into an award winning homebrew or anything even close - but its got enough tweaks and hints to stop K&K beers from being actively bad and make them "not bad at all". I know the brother in laws Dad turned his beers from "smile politely and tip it out when he's not looking" to half decent beers that i look forward to drinking and discussing with him; and would in general choose in preference to the standard mega brew beers he also keeps in his fridge.

And thats all he wanted - who am i totell him he should want more?


----------



## NickB (7/8/11)




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## Braumoasta (7/8/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> And thats all he wanted - who am i totell him he should want more?



Excellent mindset. I'm a bit of a coffee snob, only use freshly roasted and ground beans, use a good quality machine to produce an excellent coffee. Many people still prefer the taste of instant coffee over freshly brewed coffee using fresh beans. I can't tell them that they are wrong for thinking that instant coffee tastes better, because to them it just does. So to the people on here who are telling others that the beer they make is not nice, need to just grow up a little and realise that everyone has personal preferences, and if the brewer likes the taste of his beer then they shouldn't be telling them that their idea of a good tasting beer is wrong.


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## Synthetase (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> Did you read anything at all?
> Anything?



Yes. And a badly fermented FWK still tastes like shit no matter how much reading you've done.

Mate I agree with you that AG wins hands down; I'd never go back to kits and bits. But I have tasted some shockingly bad AG/FWK beers.

The best thing that happened to my own brewing was the discovery of temperature control.

So, to clarify, if you're going to **** it up, you might as well **** up a cheap kit as opposed to >$40 worth of FWK + yeast and hops. And if you're not controlling your parameters like temperature and sanitation, then you're probably going to **** it up.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

manticle said:


> I don't disagree with you that a FWK is the easiest way of turning out a commercial quality beer at home with no fuss. I don't disagree with you that good mash beer is head and shoulders above good extract/kit beer.
> 
> I don't believe that the response, or all the hoo-ha that it has entailed will serve a new brewer including the OP particularly well.
> 
> Admittedly if someone asked me how to make their mayonnaise in a jar taste good I'd probably answer: 'by throwing it out and making it properly from eggs, vinegar and oil' but we all suffer from occasional hypocrisy.



As stated previously, givin that all things are equal, I removed the irrelivent part of your reply as we have already established that no matter what you brew, with the wrong ferment temp, lack of sanitation etc, if it's an all grain or a K&K it will be a shit result.
The OP, as a new brewer, will never get an expected result of a VB or Super dry from tins, never mind something slightly more tasteful. However as I have said before, a hot FWK will still be better than a hot K&K.


What I have left in, is all you had to say.


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## manticle (7/8/11)

I don't understand how you can take the most obvious, pertinent point from the OP and make it irrelevant.

You must have a special magic wand.

Can I borrow it to wave at my mother?


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## Banjo (7/8/11)

Thanks for the advice guys.
At the moment i am between houses and hav'nt got the space to do much.
In the future, i plan to get a dedicated fridge and a keg setup, as well as try more advanced methods.
In reguards to sterilizing the equipment, i use pink stain initially, and then sanitiser or Milton on both the fermenter, bottles and bits and pieces.
A mate of mine uses hot water only, on his bottles. Is this good enough?

Cheers Banjo


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## manticle (7/8/11)

You might get away with hot water, you might not. It's a balance of ease vs wasted time that you have to decide.

IF you clean bottles immediately then you stand a good chance but a no rinse sanitiser is so easy to use, cost effective and gives peace of mind.


What are your ferment temps as per original post? This is the most likely cause of your problems although everything else suggested and mentioned will help make better beer.


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## jyo (7/8/11)

I feel sorry for the OP.

Q- "How can I improve my beer?" 
A- (Well the most vitriolic one anyway)"You can't, all your beer tastes like arse and always will, regardless. Brewing All-Grain is the only way."

Out of curiosity, I had a look through the WA state comp results over the past couple of years. Funny to see that quite a few kits did really well. Even a couple of medals. Stupid judges.


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## Synthetase (7/8/11)

Banjo said:


> Thanks for the advice guys.
> A mate of mine uses hot water only, on his bottles. Is this good enough?
> 
> Cheers Banjo



Depends on how hot it is. I used to put bottles in big pot full of boiling water (was a real pain in the arse and I didn't do it for long). Hot water from the tap isn't ideal and wont kill all the nasties that may make it into your brew. As Manticle said, it's best to use a no-rinse sanitiser like star san.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I am, and i disagree with it too.



So K&K don't have a twang to them? or that Willy Nelson will be twangier falling into a banjo display?



Thirsty Boy said:


> However i dont disagree with the notion that you are able to make better beers as you progress up what is a pretty traditional ladder of brewing. Straight K&K -> kits and bits -> extract -> steeping grains -> minimash etc etc or something like that.



Why do you need to start at K&K and work their way up TB?, why is that the way it has to be?, why cant a brewer be told to throw away his can opener and start on FWK? or BIAB or AG for that matter? A shit FWK is going to taste better than a shit K&K
You and I both know that AG isn't difficult



Thirsty Boy said:


> But i also get that not only are there people out there who not only aren't at the "good" end of that scale, but who will never want to be there. The proecss just doesn't interest them, the price of entry doesn't interest them, they just (horror of horrors) like the way they brew now. And IMO anyway if you cant make a pretty decent drop of beer from a can of goo and a bag of stuff from woollies, then you have bugger all chance of doing it from grain.



And if you like the stuff that you're brewing with a can of goo and a bag of stuff form wollies, then you should have no need to post on any beer forum asking why it tastes shit. To those people, good on them, their brewing beer for cheap piss, and that's what their getting.




Thirsty Boy said:


> I dont for a miniute suggest that the beers will be as good as those produced by a talented AG brewer, but there is no reason at all why they should be actually bad.



I wouldn't suggest that the beers would be anywhere near as good as a half arsed AG brewer, and I suspect you would agree, since you are an AG brewer and haven't reverted back to extract.



Thirsty Boy said:


> My brother in law's dad is a K&K man - he knows i an a more advanced brewer and likes my beer... But has absolutely no interest in advancing his process in the direction of grain brewing. He asked for some advice about how his beers tasted and what he could do to improve them and his consistency - but made it clear he was totally uninterested in using grain, extract, adding more than a teabag type hop character. Bubt if i could think of things to help him improve his brewing, without changing the basic way he brews... Could i make some suggestions please??
> 
> So i wrote this for him
> 
> ...



nice one, good on you for providing the best process for him.

But I still say, he wasn't happy with his tin of goop beer and wanted something better.
What if you say to him; "give me the cash you'd spend on K&K and I'll make you a FWK that you can ferment out"
Not for the cash, but you know as well as I do, the more you drink better beer, the less you like shit ones.

If K&K were a nice beer TB, you wouldn't be doing AG.

I still say: 
1. Extract beers are shit.
2. A stuffed up AG or FWK will still taste better than a stuffed up K&K
3. I have met No one, heard of no one, read of no one that Brewed All Grain and decided that Extract brewing was better and gone back to it
4. if you can make a cup of tea, or make a bowl of porridge, you can AG
5. A FWK is still cheaper than buying 2.5 slabs of VB


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## humulus (7/8/11)

Having learnt my lessons=Sanitation-temp,sanitation-temp,etc,etc :icon_cheers:


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Synthetase said:


> Yes. And a badly fermented FWK still tastes like shit no matter how much reading you've done.



Not as bad a badly fermented K&K



Synthetase said:


> Mate I agree with you that AG wins hands down; I'd never go back to kits and bits. But I have tasted some shockingly bad AG/FWK beers.
> The best thing that happened to my own brewing was the discovery of temperature control.
> 
> So, to clarify, if you're going to **** it up, you might as well **** up a cheap kit as opposed to >$40 worth of FWK + yeast and hops. And if you're not controlling your parameters like temperature and sanitation, then you're probably going to **** it up.



That works both ways though mate, if you're going to do a good one, better to do it on a FWK than a twangy K&K.

And of Course AG wins hands down, you'd still be making Extracts if it didn't


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Braumoasta said:


> Excellent mindset. I'm a bit of a coffee snob, only use freshly roasted and ground beans, use a good quality machine to produce an excellent coffee. Many people still prefer the taste of instant coffee over freshly brewed coffee using fresh beans. I can't tell them that they are wrong for thinking that instant coffee tastes better, because to them it just does. So to the people on here who are telling others that the beer they make is not nice, need to just grow up a little and realise that everyone has personal preferences, and if the brewer likes the taste of his beer then they shouldn't be telling them that their idea of a good tasting beer is wrong.



Sorry, Instant coffee is shit and is the equivelent of your twangy beer goop.
I'm not disputing that people drink it.
But no matter how you look at it, it's processed shit.

If they come to me and ask me how to make their coffee better, I'm going to tell them, grind some beans.


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## manticle (7/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> So K&K don't have a twang to them? or that Willy Nelson will be twangier falling into a banjo display?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



BUT!

and this is a big BUT........(and a point I've made earlier that you either dimiss as irrelevant or have ignored or missed)

Let's give an average KK a score out of 10. Let's give it a 5

A kit brewer wants to know how to get a 7 or 8. Maybe a fresh wort kit? Good idea.

Brew fwk badly which makes it a shit FWK. Maybe it gets a 6 (if you're lucky). Is 1 point out of 10 worth the extra $20 the kit brewer spent? What do they then think of FWK or AG (which takes 3-6 hours depending on method as opposed to less than 1 for KK?).

My good AG brews are better than my shit kit, extract and partial brews but my good kit, extract and partial brews were better than my shit AG brews. I've tasted some kit beers that I would be hard pressed to know how they were made and some AG brews I've tipped down the sink. You can't make that shit irrelevant because it isn't irrelevant to anyone vaguely interested in home brewing.

We could argue in circles all night -it's obvious that you are so attached to your opinion that you have no inclination to even acknowledge if someone else makes a valid point, even if you have a counter point. He who shouts loudest isn't always right, just louder.

Be loud. See who listens.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

manticle said:


> I don't understand how you can take the most obvious, pertinent point from the OP and make it irrelevant.
> 
> You must have a special magic wand.
> 
> Can I borrow it to wave at my mother?



How many times do I have to re-quote your own words before you have any clue with what i'm on abour in respect to your pertinent point?

It is a special magic wand, and only if I can borrow her broomstick.


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## petesbrew (7/8/11)

G'day & welcome aboard AHB Banjo.
I couldn't be arsed getting in on the argument, but will offer my 2c.
1. Temperature control is the key, even if its a wet towel and some freezer bricks, or even brewing outside of summer temps. Keep it down around 18-20c for ales, and you're fine.
2. Recipes - the internet is your friend. There's countless recipes out there for whatever you want to brew. You don't have to be stuck with the usual vb, extra dry, heineken clones. Maybe that's a reason they're all tasting the same? Anyway, it's up to how far you want to test your tastebuds.
3. Meet up with a homebrew club - meet some likeminded dudes and share their beers. They'll think yours are crap, and you'll be blown away by the flavour of their Belgian Blonde, the Dunkelweizen, the smoked porter, etc. It's a real eye opener, and you'll no doubt make some great new friendships.
4. Method - Knk... enjoy it, it's easy and quick, but you can still have fun experimenting with them. Move up to AG if and when you're ready. Not because some troll says "knk is shit".
5. Oh yeah Cleanliness is important... blah blah blah... 
Cheers
Pete


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## Banjo (7/8/11)

manticle said:


> What are your ferment temps as per original post?
> Basically I have followed the instructions on the can (25*) when i pitch the yeast.
> Then on a heat pad, it varies between 18 to 23.


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## manticle (7/8/11)

beerfingers said:


> How many times do I have to re-quote your own words before you have any clue with what i'm on abour in respect to your pertinent point?[



Which makes your pertinent point reduced to:

AG is better than kit if everything else is equal.


Read the original post and tell me how that helps the OP any more than telling them their water is no good. 

It's not an AG vs extract thread - you've tried to make it one but you may as well make a man out of straw, call him achmed and put him in a train station with a suspicious backpack.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

bradsbrew said:


> :icon_chickcheers:




My Post From 2009

Re-read in this thread from today dopey:

me from today:


> I know, that when I was all extract brewing, I thought my beers were fkn awesome, and I could drink them all day.
> The sad truth, in hindsight was that they were not a patch on the beers I'm making now.
> And Manticle, as much as I like you, if you were to say that your extracts were as good as or better than your AG's, I would out you as a liar.



If you're going to try and be a smart arse, it helps if you're not smashed bucket of crabs in the first place


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## Hatchy (7/8/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> IMO anyway if you cant make a pretty decent drop of beer from a can of goo and a bag of stuff from woollies, then you have bugger all chance of doing it from grain.



I've spoken to blokes who are trying to work out what size esky to get for their mash tun & what sort of chiller they need that have never & possibly never will make a batch of beer. A bloke has asked me what he should do when I knew he'd been told how to brew by blokes that know way more about brewing than I do. I told him to go get a fermenter, a can of goo, some hops & a packet of us05. If you can't make acceptable beer from a kit then you won't make good AG beer.

Beerfingers, I'm going to get a can of mexican cerveza & make up another batch with some galaxy & cascade at some point & see if it's still as good as I remember it being. I'm pretty sure it will taste way better than some of my early AG beers.


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## eamonnfoley (7/8/11)

Beerfingers - not sure where your going with all this, but you seem determined to disagree with everyone. As manticle pointed out it's just becoming noise.

First you didnt like that I suggested removing Chlorine in your tap water was a good idea for extract brewers. Then you decided that extract brewing was so inferior it was hardly worth it. And then you didnt like the suggestion from Thirsty Boy that its a decent idea to master K&K before you go all grain. Then you moved onto coffee..... 

YES - All grain is the best, most of us believe that. But most people are trying to say is extract beer can be pretty good under controlled conditions, leaving the rehydration/dilution of goo/DME as the ONLY factor that could potentially give a minor off-flavour (which is overrated and often mistaken - usually its things like chlorine or bad sanitation). I've tasted some great extract beer - could hardly believe it came from a tin. I am tempted to knock one up with what I know now and based on this thread.


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## Lodan (7/8/11)

:icon_offtopic: 
I'm still laughing at the popcorn and bear pics


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## manticle (7/8/11)

Banjo said:


> Basically I have followed the instructions on the can (25*) when i pitch the yeast.
> Then on a heat pad, it varies between 18 to 23.



Thought I'd replied but the internet must have eaten it.

Try getting the pitching temp (adding yeast) and the ferment temp to around 17-18. Up to 20-22 is OK but consistency is crucial.

Forget the heatpad. When you add the yeast, try sanitising a stainless steel whisk (clean it and boil it in water for an hour) then whisk the brew for 5 minutes. Aeration of yeast, early in its life with beer is good. Avoid aeration once fermentation starts though.

Do these things and see if it makes a difference.

If it does, and you like it, try a fresh wort kit as Beerfingers has humbly suggested.


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## [email protected] (7/8/11)

Hatchy said:


> . If you can't make acceptable beer from a kit then you won't make good AG beer.
> .



This is just pointless semantics, Thirsty boy also made a similar comment and this is true to a certain extent, but if you have someone who has never brewed before and does not like processed ingredients, say they already cook and are hell bent on only using fresh ingredients and they want to do the same with making beer.
There is no reason why they cant learn all the other aspects of brewing on small batches of AG. 

If people make snap judgements on anything after only doing it once or twice and decide its not for them, or its shit, thats their problem and they prob would never have had the patience to brew anything decent anyway.


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## petesbrew (7/8/11)

Banjo said:


> G'day Folks, Banjo here!
> I'm new too the forum and also too homebrewin.
> So far i have made 10 or more batches of beer of different types. (All the Coopers kits, VB, Morgans etc)
> All the beers i have made seem to taste the same, whether it's hopped or not, exept for a couple of dark ales (Coopers and Tooheys old).
> ...


Have you put down the pilsner one yet Banjo? If not, guys please put the nerdrage aside and help a dude out.
I'd say do this, but it's off the top of my head.
Czech Pils kit
1kg LDME (Light Dried Malt Extract), or 1.5kg LLME (Light Liquid Malt Extract)
180g Carapils grain - look in the articles at steeping grain.
25g Saaz dry hopped
Dried Lager yeast - I'd us S-189, available from Craftbrewer, it's a good yeast and can be brewed easily with sydney winter temps (and supposedly up to 18c with no probs)
Otherwise Saflager 34/70 should do the job. 
Pete


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## DU99 (7/8/11)

Fresh Meaning and Definition

1. (superl) New; original; additional.
2. (superl) Not salt; as, fresh water, in distinction from that which is from the sea, or brackish; fresh meat, in distinction from that which is pickled or salted.
3. (superl) In a raw, green, or untried state; uncultivated; uncultured; unpracticed; as, a fresh hand on a ship.
4. (n.) A stream or spring of fresh water.
5. (n.) A flood; a freshet.
6. (superl) Youthful; florid; as, these fresh nymphs.
7. (n.) The mingling of fresh water with salt in rivers or bays, as by means of a flood of fresh water flowing toward or into the sea.
8. (superl) Renewed in vigor, alacrity, or readiness for action; as, fresh for a combat; hence, tending to renew in vigor; rather strong; cool or brisk; as, a fresh wind.
9. (v. t.) To refresh; to freshen.
10. (superl) Lately produced, gathered, or prepared for market; not stale; not dried or preserved; not wilted, faded, or tainted; in good condition; as, fresh vegetables, flowers, eggs, meat, fruit, etc.; recently made or obtained; occurring again; repeated; as, a fresh supply of goods; fresh tea, raisins, etc.; lately come or made public; as, fresh news; recently taken from a well or spring; as, fresh water.
11. (superl) Possessed of original life and vigor; new and strong; unimpaired; sound.

how long does the fresh product sit on the shelf..

i am not disagreeing with anyone,but in some cases it's what people can afford to do and the space they have to do it in,and the money to do it with..all grain is the ultimate result..


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## kelbygreen (7/8/11)

sounds great pete I must admit I skipped this whole thread to this page as the typical go straight to AG shit comes out!. we all start some where and diving into AG is easy now but some people like me wanted to get the process down first not go LOOK! I can make great beer even if I do it shit it will be good! no I want to do it right and make it better! 

Ok on topic! Pete has a good start for pilsner (if you can afford it and source it locally) try briess malts they are so bloody good as close to AG you can get without a FWK cost more yes but great! sub for pilsner malt if using briess. I would also use 200g dex if using LDME to thin it out a touch and 20g of carapils wont be noticable so go 200g. 

Use swiss lager yeast (if thats the s-189 then sorry) if going from craft brewer as its warming up and it can tolerate 19deg if you dont have temp control otherwise s-23 is good. ferment for 14 days at least prob 10 days at 10-12 deg and 4 days at 18 deg or untill gravity is consistent. Then chill to 1-4 deg for at least a week Id do it 2+ I do 4-5 weeks and its clear as. then bottle or keg and leave till carbed. WIth kit and extract it is best to leave it condition for at least a month min 2 months and the beer will be a totally different beer


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## pk.sax (7/8/11)

I was just not gonna reply... Then I saw OP actually came back discussed in his own thread 

Mate, what they say about temp....

Also, apart from that, you can get rid of the HB twang from K&K beer but it won't be K&K any more. I did my first K&K as per recipe with the kit except that I didn't have a heater and the shop was out of stock so it accidentally fermented between 15-20 C. It was drinkable, just, for a little while anyway.

For my second try, I picked up a Canadian blonde can and boiled the crap out of it as I read somewhere that doing so reduces the bitterness. Then I added a whole can of 'fresh' wheat extract to it, topped it all up with a can of towhees liquid brewing sugar (corn starch). I also hopped it with fresh hallertau as a 60 minute boil. Finally, fermented @ 18C with US05 yeast.

Now, this beer wasn't bad. The twang was still there but was faint. The head on it was great. It was a bit viscous even - aka mouthfeel - when drinking it didn't feel like a thin beer. Taste was great. My mate loved it, and he's a hophead!! He loved my euro hopped medium bitterness beer. Guys at the club gave me decent feedback on it that the fermentation was right etc etc, taste wasn't special but quite acceptable.

All good and happy.

Except.......

All that stuffing around cost money to buy the extra hops, malt extract, good sugar..... A Fresh Wort Kit costs less IMO. And they give you a packet of dry yeast (like US05) free with it. Most importantly though, it does not come with a shit instruction set that tells you to ferment between 18-25.

As said above, put away that heat pad for now. Kit beers lag a lot so brewers tend to think the extra heat helps - its a bad solution.
Learn how to activate/rehydrate your yeast prior to pitching. IMO, it helps protect from dud yeast that will take forever. I never sprinkle it dry onto the wort.
If you are really keen on not buying FWKs, get unhopped extract, hops and yeast and try doing a recipe that calls for all that. The homebrew twang is supposedly due to the 'hop extract' used in the cans of goo sold as kits rather than real fresh hops. Unhopped extract doesn't suffer from this.
Be pre-warned though, extract brewing will cost more than kit brewing and not get you the same quality as grain brewing (or cheating with FWKs). By the time you add up the cost of the bits in Kits & bits, it's a bloody fortune that could've bought you so much real goodness.

PS: Disclaimer - I do not intend to argue any of this, take my advice with a grain of salt or two and happy brewing


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## kelbygreen (7/8/11)

you forgot to mention the people like me that work 60 hours a week that have the time to sit down on the little time off and spend 4-5 hours brewing!! Yes I AG but if I was home for the 10 days I am away and didnt get 4 days off after then there is no way I could have the time to do AG


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## Nevalicious (7/8/11)

Lodan said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> I'm still laughing at the popcorn and bear pics



Off topic??

This whole thread has been derailed...

Agree about the popcorn and bear pics though


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## fcmcg (7/8/11)

DU99 said:


> Fresh Meaning and Definition
> 
> 1. (superl) New; original; additional.
> 2. (superl) Not salt; as, fresh water, in distinction from that which is from the sea, or brackish; fresh meat, in distinction from that which is pickled or salted.
> ...


Du , the majority of this post is as about as usefull as the all the agro that has gone on since the OP's first post....
The only thing i do agree with is the last statement you have made...
There has been alot of agro in this thread...all Banjo wanted was some useful advice about making HIS beer....
Can we please get this thread onto a useful topic to help the man ??
I wasn't gonna buy in but i've been shaking my head at some of the posts in this thread for a couple of hours now....
Banjo...maybe just concern yourself with page one and the first 4 or so usefull posts....
Good luck bloke...
This is my 2c...
That is all...
Ferg


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## loikar (7/8/11)

manticle said:


> BUT!
> 
> and this is a big BUT........(and a point I've made earlier that you either dimiss as irrelevant or have ignored or missed)
> 
> ...



It's reasonable to assume in that scenario that the brewer getting an average of 5 for his kits would know that his FWK was fermenting incorrectly, given that the FWK was brewed to the same environmental conditions as the K&K, there is no way the FWK would come out the same as or 1 point higher than a K&K. of course a pre-infected FWK is a slim variable, but one that would in no doubt be obvious to the brewer. 

So, if you are suggesting that the Brewer brewed his K&K at 18c but brewed his FWK at 27c, then it should be obvious to the brewer what the variable of the bad brew was.

Now before you start mashed the reply button:
To tie this into the OP who's thread is titled "All taste the same", it would indicate that this scenario of variation is not evident.
2 things; either he's brewing consistently hot, or he's brewing with shit ingredients.
I suspect both. Now you can pat him on the head and say; "brew your shit beer cooler", or you can say use better ingredients, get your process down, and then move on.
So you can harp on about him cooking it a little hot being the cause, but I say shit ingredients = shit beer.
Extract fits that description.



manticle said:


> My good AG brews are better than my shit kit, extract and partial brews but my good kit, extract and partial brews were better than my shit AG brews. I've tasted some kit beers that I would be hard pressed to know how they were made and some AG brews I've tipped down the sink. You can't make that shit irrelevant because it isn't irrelevant to anyone vaguely interested in home brewing.




yep, I'll agree, an AG with DMS up to its eyeballs is not as good as a manicured Extract brew.
But you can put all the effort into babying an all Extract brew and it'll come out ok while you can put a half arsed into an AG, and it will come out better than your pampered Extract.




manticle said:


> We could argue in circles all night -it's obvious that you are so attached to your opinion that you have no inclination to even acknowledge if someone else makes a valid point, even if you have a counter point. He who shouts loudest isn't always right, just louder.
> 
> Be loud. See who listens.



Its text Manticle, you can't hear it.....or can you?

If you thought Extract brewing was the ducks guts, you would be doing it.
but you don't, because it's not.

Just because you don't want to tell a K&K brewer that his ingredients are inferior and make him feel warm and fuzzy about his twangy extract brew, it doesn't mean his beer is any good.

Process is process, no matter what the ingredients are.
A great process with shit ingredients will amount to a well processed shit product
A great process with great ingredients will amount to a great product.

it's not rocket science mate, it's just beer.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Hatchy said:


> I've spoken to blokes who are trying to work out what size esky to get for their mash tun & what sort of chiller they need that have never & possibly never will make a batch of beer. A bloke has asked me what he should do when I knew he'd been told how to brew by blokes that know way more about brewing than I do. I told him to go get a fermenter, a can of goo, some hops & a packet of us05. If you can't make acceptable beer from a kit then you won't make good AG beer.
> 
> Beerfingers, I'm going to get a can of mexican cerveza & make up another batch with some galaxy & cascade at some point & see if it's still as good as I remember it being. I'm pretty sure it will taste way better than some of my early AG beers.



Send me a bottle Hatchy


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## pk.sax (7/8/11)

I think that advice on what kit to buy is pretty relevant. Especially as he said in hsi first post that he has tried all sorts of kits he could lay hands on finds no difference, he asked for help to fix that situation.

What has not been helpful in this thread is people talking real hot and not backing up any of the good advice with some qualified knowledge that will actually help the OP. Telling him to go AG because kits are shit is not helpful. He can read the zillions of threads on here that say just the same and come to that conclusion.

Help on kits was asked and the most on-topic would be to point towards good kits/types of kits like FWK etc and point out how they compare to K&K. Some people have done that and given good info, and it's not just the first few posts. Temperature is a great suggestion but hardly covers what advice OP is after.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

bradsbrew said:


> :icon_chickcheers:
> 
> Amazing how Smurto gave an extract version of his award winning beer. Perhaps he should of just said "nah it'll be shit if you use extract, dont bother, do it all grain or dont do it.




See my reply before you edited this.

I'm pretty sure The Good Doctor provided an extract version because the Extract brewers were asking him for it.
He's a good bloke like that. I doubt though he's done an extract version of it himself.

Also read the last line in my previous reply to you and apply it to this one also.


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## brett mccluskey (7/8/11)

quite a few people here should just do this


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## WarmBeer (7/8/11)




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## kelbygreen (7/8/11)

**** me this is ridiculous 6 pages of bullshit and TBH I read like 3 post while flicking threw it quickly that actually try to help this guy out. People have different opinions and if you only believe in AG then dont bother posting in K&K and extract as when they do its like AG is the only way to go. Sure its better beer but they may not have the time or space or equipment to do it


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## DU99 (7/8/11)

:icon_offtopic: ferg i was like you,the whole post seems to be off track..


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## Lecterfan (7/8/11)

WarmBeer said:


>




This has to be one of the best I've seen since August 2010...I would've commented earlier but usually that means the mods are all over me hee hee h34r:


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## loikar (7/8/11)

bradsbrew said:


> @ beerfingers, So all the beer you made and raved about that wasn't AG was shit? Maybe your AG is shit too but you havn't realised it yet. Maybe you'll buy a Braumeister and proclaim that all beer that isn't brewed with a Braumeister is shit etc etc.
> 
> BTW hope you read the edited post. Then it may occur to you why some brewers like the good Dr. have earnt the respect of alot of brewers and why some havnt.
> 
> ...



You live in a differen't world Brad, either you cant read, the words don't make sense in your head or your reading a differen't post.

No I can pretty much say my AG's are great, as can most AG brewers.
He is a very clever, smart and well recognised brewer and I still bounce questions of him myself form time to time
And I have nothing to bad to say against the good DrSmurto as I want my rice hulls from him.


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## loikar (7/8/11)

Awesome thread lads.
Great stuff!
We should do this more often.

For the Record Manticle...

I still loves ya :icon_cheers: 

Cheers,

Beerfingers


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## Siborg (7/8/11)

Hey Banjo. Welcome to the wonderful world of brewing! Everyone has their opinions, and of course, they are sure theirs is the one you should listen to.

In regards to your beer and your processes. Fermenting above 20 degrees is going to give your brews that cidery taste. I'm sure that's something everyone in this discussion can agree on. Try fermenting between 18-20 degrees as was already mentioned. As was also mentioned, try getting some better brewing yeast as the ones that come under the lid are usually old and stressed. Safale US-05 is a great, neutral yeast that won't give you that cidery taste IF you can keep the brew between 18-20 degrees. You can usually pick up a pack for around $5 and the good places will keep them in the fridge to keep them fresh and healthy (try Craftbrewer or Grain & Grape from the top of this site)

Really check your sanitation regime. Everything must be cleaned then sanitised. Clean with hot water and unscented napisan or equivalent. Use a smooth cloth that won't leave small scratches on surfaces (bacteria can grow in scratches). Rinse with hot water, then sanitise with your no-rinse of choice. I use starsan and it is excellent. You can get all this stuff from craftbrewer and grain & grape. They also sell better kits, which you may want to try instead of the coopers range which you can get from your supermarket. 

Once I got the above two points down, my brews improved significantly. They also improved more once I moved to AG brewing as I had these fundamentals down pat.

Just to add a little fuel to this kits v AG fire, The Melbourne brewers have been running an annual comp called "Get your kit off" to prove that you can make good beer from a kit. One of the beers made from a kit got third place at the Westgate Stout Extravaganza last year, second place (after count-back) at Vic Brew and fourth place in the nationals.

Feel free to continue what you're doing. Look for the little things you can improve on, and, look towards how you can move into AG brewing down the line. You don't need a lot of space. Just a 19L pot from Big W and some mesh bag. Have a look around this site for intro guides to brew in a bag (BIAB) for some ideas.


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## Thirsty Boy (8/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> So K&K don't have a twang to them? or that Willy Nelson will be twangier falling into a banjo display?



I genuinely think that if you do so with care, you can brew perfectly nice, twang free kit beers. I've tasted them, I've made them myself and thats what the document I posted is about doing. i thought it might actually be helpful for the OP, so i will draw attention to it again and retire from the discussion.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A2j_MO6...c/edit?hl=en_US

Note: I own both an actual banjo and pretty much every Willie Nelson record- So perhaps I am not as sensitive to twang as I might be.


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## Nick JD (8/8/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I genuinely think that if you do so with care, you can brew perfectly nice, twang free kit beers. I've tasted them, I've made them myself and thats what the document I posted is about doing. i thought it might actually be helpful for the OP, so i will draw attention to it again and retire from the discussion.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A2j_MO6...c/edit?hl=en_US
> 
> Note: I own both an actual banjo and pretty much every Willie Nelson record- So perhaps I am not as sensitive to twang as I might be.



Thirsty - What evidence do you have that twang comes from old goop? 

I've made twang-free extract beers from ancient liquid malt extract. Is it the hop compounds in the kit that make the twang? Not the extract?


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## Tim (8/8/11)

@Banjo, not all kits are equal. There is a website called homebrewkitreviews.com that was put together by a member called Sluggerdog that used to post on AHB. It's a good starting point in determining what kits to use. Most local homebrew shops have recipe suggestions that will help you produce a beer that is of similar style to a commercial beer. These are also a good start.

Regardless of what some posts claim you can make great beer from kits. The first couple of batches won't be great but with experience and sorting out variables such as controlling temperature, using iodophor or starsan instead of sodium metabisulphate to sanitise, pitching the right quantity of good yeast and cold conditioning your young beer you will turn out beer you can be proud of.

There seems to be an "AG is best" type mentality here on AHB and new brewers are in such a rush to get to advanced brewing that they don't master the basics. Sure AG is not hard and can produce excellent beer, but it can be expensive to set up, it's time consuming and the result will still be ordinary if you don't have the basics down.

Welcome to AHB - Don't listen to the hater's, use the search tool and make the beer you want to drink.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/8/11)

Tim said:


> @Banjo, not all kits are equal. There is a website called homebrewkitreviews.com that was put together by a member called Sluggerdog that used to post on AHB. It's a good starting point in determining what kits to use. Most local homebrew shops have recipe suggestions that will help you produce a beer that is of similar style to a commercial beer. These are also a good start.
> 
> Regardless of what some posts claim you can make great beer from kits. The first couple of batches won't be great but with experience and sorting out variables such as controlling temperature, using iodophor or starsan instead of sodium metabisulphate to sanitise, pitching the right quantity of good yeast and cold conditioning your young beer you will turn out beer you can be proud of.
> 
> ...



Agree with all this, except the bit about "expensive to set up". To me a $19 pot and $3 worth of material isn't expensive. Sure a 3V or Spaudels Braumeister is expensive, but AG isn't expensive.

My system (which I've had for 2 years) still consists of 2 big w pots (2nd was on special for $12), material and borrowing existing kitchen items. My kegs are more expensive by a mile (and a lot of kit brewers keg as well).

There are kit haters. I did kit/extract for 11 years or so, I made some nice beers. I make better beer with AG, but it took me 11 years to get to that stage.

Having said that, there are a lot of passionate AG brewers here - they can be overbearing (as can I), but I really think that, even with this, if I'd had AHB around when I was doing kit/extract, I'd be typing "did kit/extract for a year, AG for 12 years", rather than the other way around, and that my kit beers for that time, would have been better than I remember them being. For all the passion, and sometimes snobbery, it's a great resource to allow anyone, regardless of where they are or want to be to increase the quality of their beer, even if they choose to stick to their chosen method.

It does take longer, lots longer. But this is a hobby, not cheap beer for me (though it is cheap).

Goomba


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## ekul (8/8/11)

Hmmm... I think a a fully automated 3V system is what is needed http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=41265
Or at the very least a HERMS. i don't know how anyone could make a beer without one.  

In my experience all my kit beers tasted similar, this i because they WERE similar. 1.7kg malt and a kilo of sugar. After you get your temperature problems sorted and your sanitation sorted i would look at introducing a little grain. 

If you soak 200g of crystal in some water that is 65C for 20mins, boil it and add to the rest of your brew you will get a different flavour.

A step up from that is soaking a kilo of base malt in some 65C water for an hour and then boiling it and adding that to your brew. This is called minimash. Once you start doing this you open up a whole new world of different flavours. Using base malt will change the strength of your beer so you'll need a program to work this out. I've used brewmate since i started brewing. It is simple to use and is great for experimenting with new hops and malt etc. You can get it here for free http://www.brewmate.net/

Good luck mate


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## loikar (8/8/11)

ok, so I might have been keen to poke a bee hive yesterday to get some activity happening on here, and I totally enjoyed the back and forth.
Which I would also say it's safe to assume, so did a lot of you...
Today i'm a bit over battering you all it and am now a bit bored of it.

However, the trolling aside; the crux of my argument is in-fact undeniably true.

You don't need to 'practice' brewing on a K&K if you're just starting out.
You can start Brewing AG and still learn the the process of brewing. Chances are you'll make a much better beer than if it were a K&K.
Process and ingredients are not one on the same.
AG Brewing is not difficult.

there is no argument here that AG brewing is head and shoulders above any K&K brew *given the same environmental conditions.
*Process has no bearing on where the wort comes from. A hot FWK will still taste better than a hot K&K.

I will agree that you can, infact make a decent extract beer with added specialty malts, hops, a 60min boil and decent yeast in the right conditions.
But if you're going to all that trouble, why not just go AG and have the freshest wort available?

Opening a packet of WhiteWings chocolate cake mix, adding an egg and a cup of milk, then throwing it into the oven, does not make me a baker, no more than opeining a tin makes you a brewer. it just means that you can ferment wort.

If you're serious about brewing beer, then get serious. Stop adding bit's and shits to your packet beer to make it taste better. Why not just make beer?

K&K isn't bang for buck, you actually get what you pay for, and a tin of cerveza and a kilo of sugar is going to taste like shit compared to what you could be making for just a few dollars more.

I'm actually thinking of posting a thread where i can make 9L of AG beer with nothing but the equpment in my kitchen for under $20.
That's without buying anything but the ingredients and not using my regular brewing gear.
If i can do that, how many of you would give it a go?

There is a stigma on this forum that AG is for 'advanced' brewers which is just a load of bullshit.
There is no ladder to climb, there is no pecking order, there is no "i know more than you because I have a higher post count and Ive been here for 5 years"
If you fall victim to that, then you're only limiting yourself by how other brewers perceive you.

They can rave on about "when i'm judging beers" and "that guys a noob" as much as they like after the dust has settled and everyone has gone home to try and gain some kind of higher status amongst their AHB peers, but for those who don't play the "I'll be like him one day" or "look at how many posts ive made", they just look like a wanker. 

This is just beer, it's your beer, it's not a ******* social climbing ladder or a 'Schooling'.

if you extract brewers are so passionate about your beer, with the knowledge that no AG brewer would go back to Extract given the choice, Given that with 2x 19L pots from BigW for $40 and a pillow case, you can be making all grain beer. And be showing other new brewers just how rediculously easy it is, what's stopping you?

Seriously, what_the_hell_is_stopping_you?

Thanks for playing lads,

BF


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## petesbrew (8/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> ok, so I might have been keen to poke a bee hive yesterday to get some activity happening on here, and I totally enjoyed the back and forth.
> Which I would also say it's safe to assume, so did a lot of you...
> Today i'm a bit over battering you all it and am now a bit bored of it.
> 
> ...


Yeah but some people aren't into this as a serious hobby, they're in it to have fun and make a cheap beer.

Then they start looking into how to make that beer taste better. Their can opener works fine - they don't want to get all the bells and whistles. And they certainly don't want to be looked down upon by an AG Elitist.

Yeah AG is easy... but you should've seen me getting led through my first AG day.... stressed out... "is it ready to mash yet?" questions.

You get into the serious stuff at your own leisure, as with any hobby/obsession.


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## Tim (8/8/11)




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## goomboogo (8/8/11)

Beerfingers, where did you get your glasses? I'd love a pair of those.


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## loikar (8/8/11)

petesbrew said:


> Yeah but some people aren't into this as a serious hobby, they're in it to have fun and make a cheap beer.
> 
> Then they start looking into how to make that beer taste better. Their can opener works fine - they don't want to get all the bells and whistles. And they certainly don't want to be looked down upon by an AG Elitist.
> 
> ...




This is my whole point thought Pete.

AG IS fun and you CAN make cheap, great tasting beer.
There doesen't have to be any bells and whistles. my first AG I did alone and after having never attended anyone elses brewday.
Don't ask me what my efficiency was or any of my gravitys, I just made beer, and had a heap of fun. 
It wasn't my best AG ever, but it was still much nicer than my K&K's

I'm no AG Elitist, definately an advocate though. And I'm happy to hammer home the fact that AG brewing is no harder than Extract brewing.

How is AG any more serious or stressful than opening a can?

Pete, AG is Just as easy as extract brewing. The trick is not to fall victim to the stigma that it's ONLY for Elite brewers.


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## petesbrew (8/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> This is my whole point thought Pete.
> 
> AG IS fun and you CAN make cheap, great tasting beer.
> There doesen't have to be any bells and whistles. my first AG I did alone and after having never attended anyone elses brewday.
> ...


Good call. I do enjoy my AG days - cleaning up and dealing with the wife is the main pain. We all know it.  
My first partial (Altbier) was awesome.
My first AG (ESB) was a phenolic mess. Such a shame, but it was fun making it.

I just think if someone's asking a question about their kits, it can't help too much by saying they should be doing AG instead. It's not what they're asking.
Not out to keep the arguement going again by all means. 5 pages on... sheesh.
Anyway. best of luck to Banjo.


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## glaab (8/8/11)

it's like listening to julia gillard :lol: 





BeerFingers said:


> I still say:
> 1. Extract beers are shit.






BeerFingers said:


> I will agree that you can, infact make a decent extract beer
> Thanks for playing lads,
> 
> BF


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## chefeffect (8/8/11)

WOW!

This thread has entertained me for about 1 hour, I have to post something after all the effort I put into reading it. Pop corn pic was great lol.

Sometimes brewers will scare the shit of newbies bit like what happened the first time I posted on this forum. It took me awhile to realise most people are just having a bit of fun, especially after I flamed someone I thought was taking 
the piss out of someone else and then realised I was drunk and they where actually asking a valid question.

I only just moved to BIAB after brewing kits for years, I dont think I will brew a kit again but if time becomes an issue and I want cheap beer that can taste better than some mass produced commercial beers I probably will.

As with anything you get what you put into it I guess, and learning good sanitisation and fremention practices is crucial and thats the first thing I learnt from trial and error temp control is king.


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## drsmurto (8/8/11)

The Golden Ale was my favourite kit beer. It became an AG recipe but started out life as a kit recipe. I made a few changes to it in the kit days by steeping crystal, switching to US05 and really enjoyed it. 

The kit recipe was added so that all forms of brewers could brew it and make something that i think tastes very nice. I would go so far as to say that a significant number of the 105 votes it has are due to kit brewers who made the kit version. 

Is the AG version better, yes. Is the kit version shit, not by a long stretch. 

I've judged the last few state brewing titles and tasted some very good kit beers that i scored quite highly, not a hint of twang to be detected.

I get sent/given Golden ales to taste on a regular basis, most AG but also a few kits. The worse one i have ever tasted was an AG, not a kit.

Telling a kit brewer his beers will be shit unless he ditches the can opener is not only extremely unhelpful it's also wrong. 

Whilst i am an AG brewer I don't forget i was once a kit brewer and made very nice beer. I actually 'won' the Gawler Show homebrew competition in 2007 with a kit beer (an LCPA 'clone') beating out several AG beers. By won i mean best beer of the show (scored 45/50, only 1 less point than the AG golden ale scored in 2008 to win the beer of show at ANAWBS) and yes, it did piss a few people off when they found out it was a kit beer. The judges were amazed.

Cheers
DrSmurto - an award winning kit brewer! :chug:


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/8/11)

DrS's post proves that the biggest variable, when comparing kit to AG is the brewer.

Therefore, if the brewer knows what he is doing on both accounts - then his AG brew will be better than his extract brew.

But a good extract brewer can (and will in some instances) beat an average AG brewer.

My worst 2 brews have been AG. They'd rate well below my worst 2 kit brews. The problem was the brewer (and specifically, lack of temp control exercised by said brewer).

But my best 2 AG brews defecate all over my best 2 kit brews.

The other brewer related variable is that an AG brewer (at least after his first couple of attempts) generally knows more detail about the process, than a kit brewer (why a mash works, how hops isometerize). 

I feel (and I may be wrong) that this is, in part, because the process requires the knowledge, but more importantly, the decision (if well researched and considered) to go AG, means that a brewer accepts the time factor as being increased - namely, this is now a hobby (or obsession).

Because they accept the time factor - that is they are no longer brewing because it is a cheap and cheerful (convenient, time efficient) way to brew beer - they will take the extra care and do the extra research needed to produce a finer beer. 

They've also accepted that a partial mash, extra hopping, etc that you need to trick up a kit beer to be a better beer takes as much time as AG, therefore, they are at the stage where quality is the zenith, not time & cost.

A brewer that sticks with kit brewing does so as a fear or time factor. They've made a trade-off that they are prepared to live with - that is, time (brewing and researching the actual process of brewing) and perceived cost (it's cheap!) vs quality (you need to research to get it) and perceived cost (isn't AG expensive to get into?).

Additionally, AG brewers' bad beers are generally 1. Because they are too experimental or 2. Lack of control over the same elements that can cause a kit brew to go bung (temp control, yeast handling, etc). It has proved the case with my poorer AG brews.

So my understanding of why kit beers are, as a rule, far worse (rather than a little worse) than AG beers is not the ingredients, but the brewer - and more importantly his mentality, reasons for brewing and probably his skills. Yes, fresh AG ingredients are better than kit - there's no doubt about it. However, an extract brewer with control over his processes will produce a better beer than an AG brewer that doesn't. 

But, as a rule, an AG brewer will generally have a better process understanding (due to a desire to increase his knowledge in order to control that process) - it's the minority of AG brewers who go in blind.

Yes, there are idiots and incompetants on both sides of the fence, but those excepted, an AG brewer will accept time, quality control and end result as the fundamentals of his brewing, whereas the extract/kit brewer will accept cost and ease of execution as the fundamentals of his brewing. A kit/extract brewer that starts to see quality and end result as the fundamentals of his brewing, will inevitably move to AG brewing, because (as happened to me) the time to produce a good kit beer is the same as AG (and IMO - costs more), AHB exists as a font of knowledge to get into cheap AG brewing, so why not try it out? I did, it's why I kicked 11 years of kit/extract 2 years ago, and plan never to go back.


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## Salt (8/8/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> A brewer that sticks with kit brewing does so as a fear or time factor. They've made a trade-off that they are prepared to live with - that is, time (brewing and researching the actual process of brewing) and perceived cost (it's cheap!) vs quality (you need to research to get it) and perceived cost (isn't AG expensive to get into?).



I have also enjoyed reading this thread for education/entertainment/enlightenment etc...however I just wanted to throw my 2 cents at the above sentence in your post...no dig intended, but I dont agree with what you have stated at all.

A brewer that sticks with kit brewing does not necessarily do so as a fear or time factor. It is personal preference in some instances, just like how I love Hopped up ales, but dont like 'wheat beers' all that much...personal preference.

My brother in law will never go past kits, but its because he likes the taste and is happy with the fact he has brewed his own beer he can happily sit down and drink day in and day out. His personal preference.

I on the other hand, dont particularly like his brews, I am in the steps heading towards BIAB and one day want to be full AG with a mint set up.
...But he has tried some of my extract brews that I and others love and he doesnt like them at all, will turn his nose up at one in favour of his kit draught.

This is life. Its the way it will always be.

Cheers and happy brewing to all, whether it be kit or AG...


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## Shed101 (8/8/11)

Sorry, i fell asleep somewhere along the way when someone took a can opener to their spleen and let it dribble all over the internet.

There was a pretty succinct question at the start, did we ever get a succinct answer?


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## chefeffect (8/8/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> DrS's post proves that the biggest variable, when comparing kit to AG is the brewer.
> 
> Therefore, if the brewer knows what he is doing on both accounts - then his AG brew will be better than his extract brew.
> 
> ...



Hear, hear! I agree with all above.


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## stux (8/8/11)

BeerFingers said:


> And all the people who say this are Extract brewers.
> I don't know of ONE person, not ONE, that has made an all grain beer and said to themselves; "taste's like shit, im going back to cans".



But I do know people who've made a few all-grain beers and then gone back to kits + bits, because they don't believe the time and feffing around is worth it


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## stux (8/8/11)

Filby said:


> The best analogy I can come up with for extract beers versus all grain is 'orange cordial versus fresh orange juice'. Sure the cordial is drinkable and cheap but the fresh juice is a hell of a lot nicer and worth the extra effort to squeeze yourself.



I prefer condensed milk vs fresh milk


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/8/11)

Stux said:


> I prefer condensed milk vs fresh milk



Some always will. Same as:

McDonalds vs fresh corner shop ingredients
Packet Pasta vs fresh pasta
Instant Coffee vs barista served coffee

Most of the time (99.999% of the time), it still comes down to a cost/time vs quality - and people will settle for instant, or McDonalds because they are happy with how it tastes for the time/money/effort. I know it sounds like I'm contradicting my earlier post (only slightly), but I stand by the fact that 99.999% of people do the same. The other .001% are those like Salt's mates. They prefer average quality beer, and yet I'd still argue that if homebrewing (kits) cost more or took more effort, then he'd go back to megaswill. So it still comes down to a time vs cost vs quality argument

Goomba


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## [email protected] (8/8/11)

consdensed milk is so good! :icon_drool2: on freshly baked bread!

also great in strong tea, makes great caramel.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/8/11)

Beer4U said:


> consdensed milk is so good! :icon_drool2: on freshly baked bread!
> 
> also great in strong tea, makes great caramel.



It is good. When I was a kid and mum made caramel tarts, she'd buy a second tub, use half and I'd be eating the other half. mmmmm.......

But I wouldn't substitute it for regular milk in tea. And you ask my kids, they all notice the difference if I give them UHT milk, instead of fresh.

Goomba


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## Yob (8/8/11)

I will never get my lunch hour back... I'll never see that time again... and wasnt even amused, just alot of self righteous bile IMO... Gorden Bennet...

I had a listen to the BN KIT BEER show again today after what was a poor excuse for a lunch hour and Mr P and Mr Z debunk a great deal of the terrible, terrible, poo pooing goin on here. (By Select members)

@ the OP give this a listen mate, it covers a great deal of what you need to hear (mostly already covered by helpful people here but very good none-the-less)

@ Fingers give this a listen, it covers a great deal of what you need to hear especialy the bit about not overwhelming newbs with stuff they dont need to know. And why.

Ive never professed to doing an AG Yet.. after 27 brews I feel Im 'almost' ready for the step having *FIRST* nailed down procedure, equipment, Yeast management, temps, etc, etc, Without correct procedure and understanding it doesnt make a spuds worth of difference wether its Kits and Bits, Extract or AG..

Ive never read a bigger load of bile here... well except for that time when Spee.... not even goin there

gods <_< 

[edit] Have a look and listen through the shows in this LINK (Brew Strong Link) Ive personally found it very informative and helpful. Gods Ive listened to most of em multiple times h34r:


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## cdbrown (8/8/11)

Stux said:


> But I do know people who've made a few all-grain beers and then gone back to kits + bits, because they don't believe the time and feffing around is worth it



I have considered going back to doing a few kit or extract brews as I was able to make consistently good beer. Since going to AG and 3v set up I've made great beer but also stuff I'm not too happy with. With AG it's a lot easier to make a really great beer as it is to make a really bad beer as the brewer has control over everything. We've just done a kit only comp with the west coast brewers and all the entries were great (except for mine), a previous comp which was AG and the results were all over the place.

Taking half a day for AG compared to a few hours for kit/extract just makes things all the worse when the AG brew comes out disappointing.

Banjo,

A few of the things I did to improve my brews
- temp control of the ferment and letting it sit in the fermenter a few days after to rest and clear
- better yeast than under the lid which suits the style you are brewing (doesn't mean you have to go to liquid yeast)
- steeping grains and adding hops really made a great improvement over the kit brews
- using more malt extract rather than dextrose or brew enhancers to help with the body

One other thing was I used software to help understand what OG and FG, I found that using the kit instructions and doing 23L it's come out as a mid strength beer and be fairly watery, bumping up the malt extract gave the body and alc content I wanted.


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## Glenn Brown (8/8/11)

cdbrown said:


> We've just done a kit only comp with the west coast brewers and all the entries were great (except for mine), a previous comp which was AG and the results were all over the place.




The great cdbrown putting up a bad beer?!? I dont believe it.


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## Yob (8/8/11)

bradsbrew said:


> :icon_offtopic: Look here (starts at post 237) this sort of shit really shits me. Especially post 239. Perhaps wankfingers should piss off back to geoff and olivers.



ouchi-wa-wa.. ya know shit really shits me too.. 

cheers... LMAO


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (8/8/11)

Let's be honest - he derailed the thread, but it takes more than one to assist him. *puts hand up*

We all took the bait.

But, realistically, @OP got his answer in the first half dozen threads, so all we've done is take up unnecessary server space on AHB server. It won't be that much, and nothing has got anywhere near as vitriolic as 1. Most derailed threads or 2. AG vs Kit/Extract threads.

I think, for the most part, the arguments have been at least informative and not too nasty. I like reading both points of view, given I K&K for so long, now AG.

Goomba


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## Lodan (8/8/11)

Congratulations Beerfingers; you turned an honest question into a self-indulgent crap-fest.


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## [email protected] (8/8/11)

smashed crab...sorry i am little pissy


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## bradsbrew (8/8/11)

Ok I'll delete all my posts from this thread. as it is a bit silly. Move along nothin to see here. B)


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## redlegger (8/8/11)

DrSmurto said:


> The Golden Ale was my favourite kit beer. It became an AG recipe but started out life as a kit recipe. I made a few changes to it in the kit days by steeping crystal, switching to US05 and really enjoyed it.
> 
> The kit recipe was added so that all forms of brewers could brew it and make something that i think tastes very nice. I would go so far as to say that a significant number of the 105 votes it has are due to kit brewers who made the kit version.
> 
> ...



Dr S for PM!


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## Deebo (8/8/11)

K&K can be good (where &K means malt extract, hops, a better yeast and possibly some grains)
AG can be good (it is more time expensive and there are more variables to control)

Just out of curiosity has anyone gone straight into AG from knowing nothing about brewing? 
There would be a lot of variables to cover for AG when even some k&k brewers seem to have problems with reading a hydrometer or the basic process, depends on the person I guess.

I have only just got into AG (5 so far) but would say most of my later kit/extract beers would be comparable to what I have made so far. 
I think a lot of the AG vs Kit/Extract is mainly down to experience.


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## Kieren (8/8/11)

You've all been trolled.

8 pages??? F$##$%#$!! Give it a rest!


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## RdeVjun (8/8/11)

Kieren said:


> You've all been trolled.


+1 ... no, wait! :huh: oh damn...


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## Banjo (9/8/11)

What a snowball reponse! Cheers.
Lots of advice that I'll try out.

Thanks again. Banjo


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (9/8/11)

Banjo said:


> What a snowball reponse! Cheers.
> Lots of advice that I'll try out.
> 
> Thanks again. Banjo



Like every on topic reply says - most of the useful information is post 2-6.

The rest is pretty well fluff - welcome to AHB 

Good luck, whatever you do. Lots of good information on here, but lots of us doing some self-backslapping as well.

Like most things on the internet, just requires a judicious eye to sift the fluff from the useful stuff.

Goomba


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## glassgrenade (10/8/11)

Here's a guy that went AG and then went back to extract, in a big kinda way. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=33523&st=0


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (10/8/11)

glassgrenade said:


> Here's a guy that went AG and then went back to extract, in a big kinda way. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=33523&st=0



Back to the time vs quality trade off that I mentioned.

His time is too precious to brew in 20L batches, when he can brew 300L in a similar time period. Obviously the quality trade off is satisfactory for him.

Every brewer has their price, and I understand and respect that not everyone wants to be making beer, one keg at a time.

300L is impressive, regardless of how you do it - I'm seriously amazed. One way or another, it requires some serious kit.

Time for me to get a 300L pot and a super-king sized sheet to make a BIAB bag out of. 

Goomba


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## Effect (10/8/11)

Has anyone given up brewing beer to go back to buying beer full time, by choice, not by circumstances (i.e. moving overseas, baby on the way, new job etc etc)

Cheers


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## Hatchy (10/8/11)

I gave up 3 times. Mainly due to terrible results due to getting advice from brewcraft.


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## Nevalicious (10/8/11)

Hatchy said:


> I gave up 3 times. Mainly due to terrible results due to getting advice from brewcraft.



Brewcraft are never wrong... <_<


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## mwd (10/8/11)

Phillip said:


> Has anyone given up brewing beer to go back to buying beer full time, by choice, not by circumstances (i.e. moving overseas, baby on the way, new job etc etc)
> 
> Cheers



At $90.00 for a carton of SN Torpedo IPA not bloody likely.


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## Siborg (10/8/11)

glassgrenade said:


> Here's a guy that went AG and then went back to extract, in a big kinda way. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=33523&st=0


WOW


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## chefeffect (10/8/11)

glassgrenade said:


> Here's a guy that went AG and then went back to extract, in a big kinda way. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=33523&st=0



Holy cow, thats insane clearly drinking is what takes up all his time ha ha!!


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## Maz91379 (10/8/11)

Extract might be not as good as all grain but it can certainly get you something nicer than 75% of what you will find in the shops and it being much less expensive probably doesn't hurt. Maybe i have no taste and smoke crack but an esb kit heffe blows imported out of the water. Low temp and good yeast peoples.

Also as far as people going straight into AG and skipping kit and extract it seems more prevalent in the US for whatever reason. Like you almost never hear of people doing kits but Ag and extract( lots of different choices other than light and dark) + diy hopping is the norm.


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## bignath (10/8/11)

Nevalicious said:


> Brewcraft are never wrong... <_<




That's right fella.

Thousands of ripped off happy customers, and the shit beer results speak for themselves


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## Synthetase (10/8/11)

Odd.

The BrewCraft near me aren't too bad. Not that I buy more than the odd sachet of US-05 or a bit of crystal from them now anyway.


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## Siborg (10/8/11)

Big Nath said:


> That's right fella.
> 
> Thousands of ripped off happy customers, and the shit beer results speak for themselves


I'm on of them!


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## Nevalicious (14/8/11)

Synthetase said:


> Odd.
> 
> The BrewCraft near me aren't too bad. Not that I buy more than the odd sachet of US-05 or a bit of crystal from them now anyway.



Yeah, but you're not going in there asking for advice, hey?!

That's the only time I ever go in there, yeast... if in real trouble


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## Synthetase (14/8/11)

Nevalicious said:


> Yeah, but you're not going in there asking for advice, hey?!
> 
> That's the only time I ever go in there, yeast... if in real trouble



Not now but when I did, they were usually quite good.


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