# Splitting A Wyeast Smack Pack



## Tony (1/7/10)

There has been a lot of discussion and questions asked on the chat, and in PM's to me on how to corectly split a smack pack to get better value for money. I dont believe there is a "corect" way to split a smack pack. I have tried all sorts of different methods ranging from keeping yeast in jam jars form the first batch, to stubbies, to just pitching it all and reusing over and over but non gave me reliable results.

I now follow this simple process and only ever use virgin yeast to brew with. I get 4 batches out of a smack pack so that about $3 in 50 liters........... but if you re pitched you could double or tripple this....... but im not that poor yet so i will stick with virgin yeast!

First up i will give a description of how i get my starters.

When i finnish sparging and the flow stops running........ it still trickles out slowly for half an hout as the wort held by the grain seperates. MOst people throw this out but i let it dribble slowly as the brew boils into a pot and i usually get 2 liters after an hour or so. I either boil this down immediatly in the below sequence, or pour it in a very strong 2 liter plastic bottle (vinigar bottles are best... cordial bottles split) and freeze it untill needed.

Now........ as the 2 liter starter boils, i add a liter or so of water to a 2 liter flask and chuck in 3 x 30ml test tubes.
Link: http://www.proscitech.com.au/cataloguex/online.asp?page=l9
Part number: LS22-30 (about half way down the page) 

Heat is the best steraliser you can get as far as im concerned and for long term storage.... you want it clean as you can get it!







I make sure the smack pack is fully swolen and fermented. If its not you gound end up with 30 Ml yeast bungers in the fridge! This pack was 6 months old and took 4 or 5 days to swell right up at room temp. Definatley needs a starter.






I boil the starter down to about 2/3 origional volume and let the flask... covered with a bit of doubled over tin foil, simmer for 10 min. Chill the starter wort in the sink full or cold water and leave the hot water to stand in the flask as you do this. make sure you leave the foil on, this will be your airlock. It lets gas out but stops other stuff getting in.

When the wort is cool, i drain the hot water from the flash through a strainer to catch the test tubes. I then pour the cooled wort into the hot flask.... dont use a funnel, just get good at not spilling it, it takes a bit of practice 

I then snip the corner from the swollen smack pack and fill 3 30 ml test tubes and attach the lids......... the rest goes into the starter.






I put the foil cap back on and give it a good swish to airate the wort and ferment it at room temp. i let it go till its done and settles out, tip the starter liquid off the yeast, catching some for a taste test and leaving about 10% of the liquid to swirl the yeast cake with. the taste test is very important.......... NEVER pitch yeast from a starter that tastes sus. It wont taste good but you will know if its infected. If it tastes like weak unhopped beer... a bit fruity ect... its fine, if you go......... on yuck that foul, make another starter. I always keep a backup few packs of dry yeast just in case.

here are the 3 freshly filled tubes (left) and other older ones of varying strains on the right that have settles out in the fridge






some older tubes..... the 1469 is 14 months old and will be slow to start but will fire no problems.






and here is how much room about 5 different yeast strains take up in the fridge....... a lot less than stubbies!






any questions please ask!

cheers


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## Nick JD (1/7/10)

So you fill up plastic test tubes with the smack pack?


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## Rodolphe01 (1/7/10)

Nice method. Pretty similar to what I do but I use pee sample jars from the chemist and I use a syringe to portion it out into the containers. I have found (without any real problem though) that the pee sample jars are way too big with mostly head space in the container, I recently acquired some ~30ml glass vials from work which I will use from now on. I also don't activate the smack pack and I make up fresh 1.040 wort from LDME for the starters as I am only a partial BIAB man and can't really spare the 'real' wort for starters 

I usually split the pack 3 ways, I have done it down as far as 5 ways, but it gets to a point where you need so much time and wort to grow the starter up you might as well just buy a new yeast!


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## bjay (1/7/10)

Thanks for that Tony good reading 
Thats pretty much what i do already 
even though i just started yeast ranching and making starters with liquid yeasts

cheers
bjay


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## Nick JD (1/7/10)

Would it not be easier in the long run to just make a "starter" out of the whole pack, and bottle enough individual yeast doses so you don't have make any more starters?


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## schooey (1/7/10)

No, because if your starter gets infected for some reason or other, you haven't lost the whole smack pack.


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## Nick JD (1/7/10)

schooey said:


> No, because if your starter gets infected for some reason or other, you haven't lost the whole smack pack.



If you're worried about infected starters (Never had one myself, so I don't consider it an issue) shouldn't you be trying to eliminate having to make one for each brew?


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## schooey (1/7/10)

So how do you pitch enough viable yeast for 50 litres of Pilsener? Buy 5 or 6 smack packs?


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## Nick JD (1/7/10)

schooey said:


> So how do you pitch enough viable yeast for 50 litres of Pilsener? Buy 5 or 6 smack packs?



Brew a 25L pilsner, drink it, bottle the trub and pitch it.


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## schooey (1/7/10)

Each to their own I guess... 

But if you have a smack pack that's 6 months old and you're worried about viability, you'd want to make a starter. So if it does prove to be viable, you still have cultures. If you pitch the whole pack, you don't. It's also handy to swap with other brewers at meets/brewdays or if you want to go down the road of blending yeasts one day


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## manticle (1/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> Would it not be easier in the long run to just make a "starter" out of the whole pack, and bottle enough individual yeast doses so you don't have make any more starters?



I think you missed the point. Yes you can re-use yeast the way you describe - I do it all the time.

However Tony's 2 main points were -

1. He uses Virgin yeast

2. He uses small vessels which take up less room.

There's a million ways to get the most out of your yeast. One works for you. One works for me. One works for Tony.


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## Wolfy (1/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> Would it not be easier in the long run to just make a "starter" out of the whole pack, and bottle enough individual yeast doses so you don't have make any more starters?


I can only imagine this working if you were going to use all the yeast within a week or two, after that time the yeast viability drops drastically and you'll need to make a starter anyway. The two main advantage of the Tony's method are as per *manticle's *suggestion.


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## NickB (1/7/10)

I use a similar method but split each smack-pack into 10 small palstic vials (50mls I think). Each ends up with maybe 5-10ml yeast (at a guess). I just use a syringe to split evenly between the tubes, then when I need to, fire up a 100ml starter and step up to whatever size I need. Really makes it cost effective. 

When I've reached the last vial, I'll make up a starter, then siphon off the wort and split into another 10 vials. Each strain can last for years this way. TidalPete showed me this method, and I think, as a certified Tight-Arse™, it works a treat!

Cheers


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## Rodolphe01 (2/7/10)

NickB I hear thee saving coin on the yeast, and i've only fairly recently started using liquid for the cost of it, but splitting it down so much don't you find you are making more starters than beer?

Maybe I am doing it wrong, but how long does it take you to step up a tenth of a smack-pack? It just recently took me ~2 weeks to step up a lager yeast, it was about 9 months old and was about 1 5th of a smack-pack though.

If you have a yeast strain you use all the time for your house beer etc, splitting it 10 ways would make more sense to me as you just contsantly have a starter on the go.

Persoanly I also see little value for myself splitting more than 3 ways, I only make beer ~ once a month, so splitting a pack 3 ways, if I make 4 different beers in a year I will have 2 years worth of culture... assuming I only want to use the same yeasts!

Maybe we need a tight arse brewers yeast exchange thread... how well would one of those plastic test tubes go in the post without ice etc...? I reckon it'd pull up OK, at worst slow to start.


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## Benniee (2/7/10)

I agree that as Tony said there is no real "correct" way of splitting a pack. I believe that there are a couple of things to keep in mind whatever method you use.

The first is to be as clean and sanitary as you can. Tony mentions that he splits up his packs across some test tubes - if I were using this method what I'd do is place a small amount of water in the test tubes and then put them in a pressure cooker or autoclave for around 20 mins before I used them - allowing them to cool first of course. This would come close to sterilising them.

The second would be the viability/mutation of yeast stored as a slurry at "fridge" temperatures for any great length of time. I don't have a lab where I could analyse this first hand so I'm simply going off what the yeast production companies recommend (Wyeast and White Labs). Viability is probably easy to live with, but mutations could/would change the characteristics of the yeast. Again, I'm simply repeating info that I have heard - not going off my personal experiences.

A draw back I can see with Tony's method of starting from 1st generation yeast each pitch is he will not gain any advantage from a 3rd or 4th gen pitch that some other brewers talk about. In typing this I'm actually spouting a bit of 2nd hand information as I'm running through the process of re-pitching some lager yeast across a number of generations. I'm just getting to the 3rd generation this weekend so I'll reserve my personal judgement for a little while longer yet. I will say that sampling the 2nd generation beer at the end of fermentation was promising.

But to get back on topic - when I crack a new Wyeast pack I pour a small amount off into a "sterilised" test tube as I mentioned above, then the rest goes into a starter. I then innoculate a number of slants from that test tube (usually a few for myself and a few to swap with other brewers). Once I'm happy with the slants I make a smaller starter from the tube of slurry, then step up to my required volume.

There are a stack of threads on making slants so I won't go on about it here too much - other than to say that for long term storage I have found them the best method for me.

Either way - good thread, gets us thinking/talking(typing) about our own methods.

Benniee


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## aussiechucka (2/7/10)

Cheers for this method Tony. There are many ways out there but none have been so easily explained. I like the idea of not taking up too much fridge space as not to upset SWMBO. I did my first Smack pack split but will be giving your idea a go too as less space. At the moment I only have stubbies hoarding space in the fridge. Two I made from splitting and the third from the trub according to Bribie. Anyway see how I go at getting some of those tubes. Looks like a great idea for my next brew. 
Cheers
Chucka :beerbang:


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## Screwtop (2/7/10)

Great info and informative pics Tony, thanks



Tony said:


> I make sure the smack pack is fully swolen and fermented. If its not you gound end up with 30 Ml yeast bungers in the fridge! This pack was 6 months old and took 4 or 5 days to swell right up at room temp. Definatley needs a starter.



Above reinforces a very important point.



Tony said:


> I boil the starter down to about 2/3 origional volume and let the flask... covered with a bit of doubled over tin foil, simmer for 10 min.



I boil mine down until reaching a gravity around 1.035 - 1.040. Boil time depends on the gravity of the runnings from the mash tun and can vary.



Tony said:


> the taste test is very important.......... NEVER pitch yeast from a starter that tastes sus. It wont taste good but you will know if its infected. If it tastes like weak unhopped beer... a bit fruity ect... its fine, if you go......... on yuck that foul, make another starter.



Again, a very important point.

Great stuff,

Screwy


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## Fourstar (2/7/10)

Screwtop said:


> I boil mine down until reaching a gravity around 1.035 - 1.040. Boil time depends on the gravity of the runnings from the mash tun and can vary.




Another thing to note with this, you should not go about making high gravity starters. 1.040 should be your upper limits. i usually shoot for around 1.030-35 (slightly less than 100g DME to 1L of water for those using extract).

Remeber, we are trying to make healthy yeast at this point, not trying to make beer. unfortunatly high gravity worts are not the ideal place for growth, neither is adding hops. Dont do it, its not beer we want, its _yeast_.


Great infornative post Tony for those wanting to split up yeast and a process i used todo before beginning slanting. Personally i like doing slants, but to each their own. :icon_cheers:


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## Screwtop (2/7/10)

Fourstar said:


> Another thing to note with this, you should not go about making high gravity starters. 1.040 should be your upper limits. i usually shoot for around 1.030-35 (slightly less than 100g DME to 1L of water for those using extract).
> 
> Remeber, we are trying to make healthy yeast at this point, not trying to make beer. unfortunatly high gravity worts are not the ideal place for growth, neither is adding hops. Dont do it, its not beer we want, its _yeast_.
> 
> ...




A good point. I have made 100g/1L wort for a starter and and ended up with wort of G 1.050 after a 10 min boil on the cooktop, not a raging boil, just a low boil, a trap for new players. Check the gravity of your starter wort!!!

Screwy


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## Phoney (2/7/10)

This is pretty close to what I do;

1. Pour liquid yeast out of the packet and into a 500ml starter. (ie: 500ml cooled boiled water and 50g of LDME)

2. Sit that on a stir plate 48+hrs until the krausen begins to subside

3. Pour into sanitized urine sample jars. Anywhere from 4 to 10, depending on how much I think im going to be using that yeast. I buy the jars at the pharmacy for .80 cents each

4. Label the jars with the yeast strain and the date and then stack them up at the back of the fridge

5. Pitch the rest of the starter into my wort.

Then the next time I want to brew using that same yeast again, I pull out 1 or 2 of the jars out of the fridge (if they're getting old I use 2), shake them like hell to rouse up the yeast cake, then pour it into a new 500ml starter, give it at least 48 hours to cultivate, then pitch!

I have made starters out of yeast that have been sitting in my fridge for 18 months and haven't had an issue! 
Cheers.


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## Fourstar (2/7/10)

Screwtop said:


> A good point. I have made 100g/1L wort for a starter and and ended up with wort of G 1.050 after a 10 min boil on the cooktop, not a raging boil, just a low boil, a trap for new players. Check the gravity of your starter wort!!!
> Screwy



Yes, sorry for the new players. I thaught it was self explanetory, you assume you amke an arse of yourself! :icon_cheers: 

100g/1L should be your post boil volume. Not your starting boil volume. So if your are boil for 15-20 mins, maybe start it at 1200ml and boil down to 1L.


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## Nick JD (2/7/10)

Wolfy said:


> ...after that time the yeast viability drops drastically and you'll need to make a starter anyway.



Why does this happen? I haven't found this to be the case.


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## cubbie (2/7/10)

Tony a great post. I normally make one starter from a smack pack pitch most and then fill 2 x 30ml test tubes (same as you use). I like the thought process behind your method and I will try this next time.

A few questions.

a. What do you calculate as the number of yeast cells left in the smack pack and in each test tube
b. What is your method to build your yeast numbers up to your required pitching rate - I would expect that simply adding the remaining yeast in a Smack Pack or yeast in a 30ml test tube to not be enough
c. If you are using Mr Malty how do you plug these details in.

Cheers.


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## lock (2/7/10)

Screwtop said:


> I boil mine down until reaching a gravity around 1.035 - 1.040. Boil time depends on the gravity of the runnings from the mash tun and can vary.



Wouldn't it be easier to make sure your original wort sample is close to 1.030 and then boil that down?

Great post Tony. I've been thinking about something like this for a while and you've given me the knowledge to have a crack at it.


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## Screwtop (2/7/10)

lock said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to make sure your original wort sample is close to 1.030 and then boil that down?
> 
> Great post Tony. I've been thinking about something like this for a while and you've given me the knowledge to have a crack at it.




Shit yeah it would! Do it whatever way you prefer............but, ever tried doing it? 

I boil the wort for 5 minutes and take a sample for the refrac and then again at 10 min, the same as I do when boiling in the kettle, take a gravity reading after 60 min to get an idea of how my boiloff rate is going, then again at 30 min (90 min boil). Each boil is different, given ambient variables, taking a reading at 30 min then calculating the boiloff allows the brewer to adjust the burner of volumes to better hit target OG at the end of the boil. I normally boiloff 5+L per hr but the batch I made last week was at 8L/hr at 30min so added some boiled water to compensate at 30 min. It's very difficult to judge by observing the boil if it is boiling at your "normal boil rate", wind, temp etc effect boiloff volume.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Thommo (2/7/10)

Top post Tony.

Went out and bought some sample jars from the chemist so I can start doing this on the weekend.

Thanks for the great info.

Thommo.


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## AndrewQLD (2/7/10)

Screwtop said:


> Shit yeah it would! Do it whatever way you prefer............but, ever tried doing it?
> 
> I boil the wort for 5 minutes and take a sample for the refrac and then again at 10 min, the same as I do when boiling in the kettle, take a gravity reading after 60 min to get an idea of how my boiloff rate is going, then again at 30 min (90 min boil). Each boil is different, given ambient variables, taking a reading at 30 min then calculating the boiloff allows the brewer to adjust the burner of volumes to better hit target OG at the end of the boil. I normally boiloff 5+L per hr but the batch I made last week was at 8L/hr at 30min so added some boiled water to compensate at 30 min. It's very difficult to judge by observing the boil if it is boiling at your "normal boil rate", wind, temp etc effect boiloff volume.
> 
> ...



I think Lock has the easier method, 



> Wouldn't it be easier to make sure your original wort sample is close to 1.030 and then boil that down?



I use an Erlenmeyer (sp) flask to boil my starters, it's marked in volume measurements. 220g of dry malt extract goes into the flask and it's topped up with water to the 2.45l mark O.G 1.033, it's then put on the stove and boiled until the volume drops to the 2lt mark, that brings the O.G up to 1.040.
You can adjust malt and water quantities for whatever O.G you require, I just put the figures into beersmith when I am too lazy to work it out myself.

Edit: Mind you this method assumes you have a reasonably accurate way to measure your wort volume.

Andrew


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## Wolfy (2/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> Why does this happen? I haven't found this to be the case.


Because yeast dies over time, it's why smack packs/vials/dry yeast all have use-by dates.
It's why everyone suggests that older smack-packs take longer to swell than newer ones - often taking more than a few days, depending on their age - a bunch of the yeast has died so it takes the remaining yeast more time to propagate and eat through the food in the smack-pack.
It's why when using the MrMalty calculator you get such different results if you adjust the 'production date' setting.
Sure, cup of saved/washed yeast slurry will have enough viable cells to directly pitch if it's a week or few old, however if it's been saved for 6 months to a year, I doubt any resonable person would expect to pitch it directly without a starter.


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## Tony (2/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> So you fill up plastic test tubes with the smack pack?



Yep




cubbie said:


> Tony a great post. I normally make one starter from a smack pack pitch most and then fill 2 x 30ml test tubes (same as you use). I like the thought process behind your method and I will try this next time.
> 
> A few questions.
> 
> ...



a. pack says 100 million so i guess about 25 Million in each vial and 25 million in the starter. Once the starter is done there is far more yeast than you would get from a single smack pack. I pitch this strait into 50 liters and works great! For lager yeasts i will usually step up a second time (Oh that sounded very Monty Python)
b. I make a starter for each vial before i use it. I make 50 liter batches so only brew monthly...... its not an issue for me.
c. Never heard of it!




Wolfy said:


> Because yeast dies over time, it's why smack packs/vials/dry yeast all have use-by dates.
> It's why everyone suggests that older smack-packs take longer to swell than newer ones - often taking more than a few days, depending on their age - a bunch of the yeast has died so it takes the remaining yeast more time to propagate and eat through the food in the smack-pack.
> It's why when using the MrMalty calculator you get such different results if you adjust the 'production date' setting.
> Sure, cup of saved/washed yeast slurry will have enough viable cells to directly pitch if it's a week or few old, however if it's been saved for 6 months to a year, I doubt any resonable person would expect to pitch it directly without a starter.



smack bang on the money Wolfy!. 

For the record..... I have had massive problems since i moved into my current house with odd bugs that grow on the top of the brew. the first brew is usually ok but if i reuse the yeast (which i did a lot at my last house with no problems) the next brew will get a white skin on it and tastes funky. Its a wild yeast issue in the air and very hard to stop. Soooooooo i only ever use virgin yeast.... hence my method.
Lots of methods work well...... I thought i would just show my method that works for me.

cheers


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## davewaldo (2/7/10)

Tony said:


> a. pack says 100 million so i guess about 25 Million in each vial and 25 million in the starter. Once the starter is done there is far more yeast than you would get from a single smack pack. I pitch this strait into 50 liters and works great! For lager yeasts i will usually step up a second time (Oh that sounded very Monty Python)
> b. I make a starter for each vial before i use it. I make 50 liter batches so only brew monthly...... its not an issue for me.
> c. Never heard of it!




Thanks for the info Tony. So just to clarify (I'm new to starters), You take a 25 million cell sample and make a 2L starter and you find this is enough for a 50L batch of normal gravity ale? And double that for a Lager?

Cheers,

Dave.


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## Nick JD (2/7/10)

Wolfy said:


> Because yeast dies over time, it's why smack packs/vials/dry yeast all have use-by dates.
> It's why everyone suggests that older smack-packs take longer to swell than newer ones - often taking more than a few days, depending on their age - a bunch of the yeast has died so it takes the remaining yeast more time to propagate and eat through the food in the smack-pack.
> It's why when using the MrMalty calculator you get such different results if you adjust the 'production date' setting.
> Sure, cup of saved/washed yeast slurry will have enough viable cells to directly pitch if it's a week or few old, however if it's been saved for 6 months to a year, I doubt any resonable person would expect to pitch it directly without a starter.



I wonder what the mortality rate of yeast is kept at 4C in beer? Anyone know?


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## Wolfy (3/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> I wonder what the mortality rate of yeast is kept at 4C in beer? Anyone know?


The pitching rate calculations in MrMalty are based on information I've read in several books, but I'm not sure where the viability V's harvest date calculations come from.
However, assuming that it's based on valid information, it does indicate a viability of 50% after only 1 month of storing yeast slurry, and 10% after 6 months storage.
So if those numbers are even close to being correct, if you store your slurry for more than a few weeks, creating a starter before re-pitching saved slurry appears to be a 'must' - which I think most resonable brewers would agree with, especially to test and check the viability, activity and the health of the yeast before pitching.


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## Nick JD (3/7/10)

Wolfy said:


> The pitching rate calculations in MrMalty are based on information I've read in several books, but I'm not sure where the viability V's harvest date calculations come from.
> However, assuming that it's based on valid information, it does indicate a viability of 50% after only 1 month of storing yeast slurry, and 10% after 6 months storage.
> So if those numbers are even close to being correct, if you store your slurry for more than a few weeks, creating a starter before re-pitching saved slurry appears to be a 'must' - which I think most resonable brewers would agree with, especially to test and check the viability, activity and the health of the yeast before pitching.



Thanks, Wolfy - where would I find some viability information? 50% after one month seems to be in line with my experience - if you can count noticing lag time variations. That said I regularly pitch months-old trub and have active fermentation within 5 hours, so I'm guessing the pitching rate is okay - and I might be over-pitching younger yeast.

A fella on another thread just told us 72 hours is as long as it'll keep.

I'd like to use Tony's method but I can't be assed making starters for every brew - I only do small batches (~15L) and it just doesn't make sense for me. But I fully appreciate the need for a starter in a 60L lager; my 15L brews would be perfect as 60L starters.


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## Tony (3/7/10)

davewaldo said:


> Thanks for the info Tony. So just to clarify (I'm new to starters), You take a 25 million cell sample and make a 2L starter and you find this is enough for a 50L batch of normal gravity ale? And double that for a Lager?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dave.



Yep



Nick JD said:


> I'd like to use Tony's method but I can't be assed making starters for every brew - I only do small batches (~15L) and it just doesn't make sense for me. But I fully appreciate the need for a starter in a 60L lager; my 15L brews would be perfect as 60L starters.



I wouldnt make a starter for a 15 liter batch either. even after a month in the fridge and 50% loss...... a good dose of healthy yeast from a previous batch will kick it in. I have done it many times. Every now and then i got one that didnt fire though, and lost the batch as a result so i started making starters to prove the yeast. 10 to 12kg of grain, a days work and up to 1/4kg of hops is too much to risk to saving $2 on yeast!


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## cubbie (6/7/10)

Tony said:


> Yep
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tony I was reading How to Brew last night and there is a great table in the Yeast section which gives a guide to how much yeast you will get from a certain starting cell count and x volume of starter. The first row in the table suits your method very well. From memory it was something like 30 billion cells (the packs has billions not millions) in a one litre starter produces about 90 odd billion cells, in a 2L starter it is about 115 billion. If you put your 90 billion from the one litre starter into a 2L starter it produces about 215 billion cells. These figures are from memory. I had a look at the online version of How to Brew but could not find the table.

This table along with the formula below I find a lot simpler to use than the Mr Malty calculator (which you have never heard of)...


http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php
"If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)"


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## MattC (8/7/10)

Tony said:


> a. pack says 100 million so i guess about 25 Million in each vial and 25 million in the starter. Once the starter is done there is far more yeast than you would get from a single smack pack. I pitch this strait into 50 liters and works great! For lager yeasts i will usually step up a second time (Oh that sounded very Monty Python)



So in theory what you are doing is creating 4 Propagator packs (minus the nutrient pack of course) from one Activator pack?

Sounds good to me

Cheers


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## MattC (9/7/10)

OK, firstly i will apologise in advance for my lack of knowledge and urgency in this department but I am just beginning to use liquid yeasts, and I have run out of beer (except a double batch fermenting at present).

Im going camping tomorrow and will be back home thursday arvo. I am planning on doing  MUST DO a brew on the following sunday and will be using a wyeast smack pack 1275. It will be a 44 L batch. After reading this thread I want to split the wyeast pack into 4 (store 3 and use 1 in a starter stepping up from 250 ml to 500 ml to 2 L over the 4 days from thurs to sunday (hopefully pitch late Sun night or Mon morning.

The production date on the wyeast pack is April 26 2010

I have been using the pitch rate calculator on the wyeast site

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

and Mr Malty

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

On the wyeast site it tells me I need about 6 million yeast cells per ml of beer (44 L and 1049 OG) which equates to about 264 billion cells required. When I punch in the numbers into the wyeast pitch rate calc it tells me that by using 0.25 of an activator pack and and a 0.5 gallon starter with a stir plate I will end up with 3.2 million cells / ml, about half what I need. If i use the whole activator pack I end up with about 7 million/ ml.

Using the Mr malty calc I punch in the date it tells me my yeast is about 45% viable. I put in the rest of the numbers and it comes out telling me that I need 3 packs or vials and a starter of 2.3 L.

I have a few questions

1. Is the final cell count for a 2 L starter more when you use more of smack pack to start? I was assuming that the end result would be the same but it would take less time with more of the smack pack used??

2. Approx how long would it take to step up to a 2 L starter and have it finished with using 1/4 of a smack pack? (Im contemplating taking the smack pack to my parents and giving dad instructions to activate it on Tuesday on my behalf) - I can here him now, "what do you worry about this [email protected]#t for, I never worry about this when I brew" (K & K man my dad).

3. Am I on the right track with this? if not could you please redirect me, 


Thanks in advance for any advice :icon_chickcheers:


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## Wolfy (9/7/10)

MattC said:


> 3. Am I on the right track with this? if not could you please redirect me,


The MrMalty calculator is designed for pitching the pack directly into the stater size it recommends. By stepping up the starter a few times, you are taking a different approach, but IMHO it's accurate enough to still be appropraite. By taking several steps while making the starter I think it's fair enough to assume that you'll end up with much the same amount of viable yeast when you reach the starter volume as per what the calculator suggests.

Personally, I'd suggest a 100ml starter, stepped to 400m and then 2L (step sizes of between 4-10x are usually recommended). Given its a new pack of yeast, you might expect it to fire-up quickly, but I'd suggest at least 1 day for each step and then one day extra to let it flocculate/settle out before you pitch it (the extra day is also good in-case it takes longer).

Other than that, pretty much sounds like the right way to go to me.


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## MattC (9/7/10)

Wolfy said:


> The MrMalty calculator is designed for pitching the pack directly into the stater size it recommends. By stepping up the starter a few times, you are taking a different approach, but IMHO it's accurate enough to still be appropraite. By taking several steps while making the starter I think it's fair enough to assume that you'll end up with much the same amount of viable yeast when you reach the starter volume as per what the calculator suggests.
> 
> Personally, I'd suggest a 100ml starter, stepped to 400m and then 2L (step sizes of between 4-10x are usually recommended). Given its a new pack of yeast, you might expect it to fire-up quickly, but I'd suggest at least 1 day for each step and then one day extra to let it flocculate/settle out before you pitch it (the extra day is also good in-case it takes longer).
> 
> Other than that, pretty much sounds like the right way to go to me.



Cheers wolfy, anything wrong with refrigerating the starter overnight to speed up flocculation, i did that last time with a 2 L starter (after checking SG to make sure it had fermented out) and it took off in about 8 hours in 44 L batch.

One other question, do you step up to the next starter when the previous is at high krausen?


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## Wolfy (9/7/10)

MattC said:


> Cheers wolfy, anything wrong with refrigerating the starter overnight to speed up flocculation, i did that last time with a 2 L starter (after checking SG to make sure it had fermented out) and it took off in about 8 hours in 44 L batch.
> 
> One other question, do you step up to the next starter when the previous is at high krausen?


It's not uncommon to put the starter in the fridge overnight to help the yeast settle, however if you can let it ferment out first.
I think it's 'best practice' to step up at high krausen, however - for a starter - that can be as quick as 12 hours (depends on the yeast of course), so I tend to do it when it's continent/easy for me and that usually means after about 24h.


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## Florian (14/8/10)

Thanks for the great info Tony, have just ordered a set of 100 7ml vials from the same supplier. I figured that 7ml will be enough, it would just take a bit longer, and if not I could always take two or three vials to build up a starter. I also ordered a 100ml baby Erlenmayer for $5.00 to add to my collection. 

BTW, did you notice that the vials you use come sterile? So unless you re-use them, there is no need to boil them first. Just open, fill, and close again, should be as sterile as it can get in a home brew setup.
Obviously, when re-using, you would have to sterilise them again by boiling or similar.

Florian


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## sama (20/8/10)

Great method! I presume the same method applies for 35ml white lab vials?> Swirl tube,keep two vials @ 10ml a vial,grow remaining 15ml yeast in 150ml of wort,step it up with 1 litre of wort,pitch when appropriate.


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## Wolfy (20/8/10)

sama said:


> Great method! I presume the same method applies for 35ml white lab vials?> Swirl tube,keep two vials @ 10ml a vial,grow remaining 15ml yeast in 150ml of wort,step it up with 1 litre of wort,pitch when appropriate.


Given that they say 1 Vial is 'appropriate' for 5US gallons, I'd pitch the remaining 15ml of fresh yeast directly into a 2L starter and go from there, there should be more than enough viable yeast viable cells to need to mess around with smaller steps, and the lack of sugars and nutrients in the smaller starters may actually harm the yeast, or at least not allow for any resonable growth.


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## sama (20/8/10)

Ive seen stated that a WL vial is equivalent to a pint starter (570mls),does this meen, theoretically a third could be pitched into 1000 mls of wort ,and used for a single 10.40 odd batch of beer.. Does this seem correct?


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## Wolfy (21/8/10)

sama said:


> Ive seen stated that a WL vial is equivalent to a pint starter (570mls),does this meen, theoretically a third could be pitched into 1000 mls of wort ,and used for a single 10.40 odd batch of beer.. Does this seem correct?


I'm not sure if that comparison is correct or not, but I thought both Wyeast and WhiteLabs packs contain the same amount of yeast (about 100billion cells).
Chris White, has said (on the various Brewing Network podcasts) that (essentially) if you pitch a full vial into a starter less than 2L you really should not expect any (or minimal after 24h) change in cell count, smaller starters only help increase the yeast health not numbers.
Hence, my suggestion of a 2L starter was based on that and the _assumption _that with 1/2 a pack, you'd get cell growth of ~3 times (~150billion cells) which puts you right where you want to be for a single batch of normal gravity beer.
But there are so many fundamental assumptions made in terms of yeast age/cell count, conditions/nutrients in the wort, aeration etc that you'd probably not notice a difference using 1 or 2L starter anyway.


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## Gopha (24/8/10)

Hi, Thanks Tony for the great info. I jumped on the recommended Web page and found the product referred to i.e. 30ml conical sample containers. 
They are listed as being sterile so here is my question is it a waste to re-sanitise them by boiling, when you have a choice of labelled or unlabelled containers, the labelled containers would be most usefull.
I have asked the question elsewhere from folks that regularly use sample jars for QA testing and the consensus is that they are sterile for up to two years - Cheers


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## Florian (24/8/10)

Gopha, as you said, they are sterile, so just use them as they are. Just don't let them sit open for too long before and after you fill them.

Have just ordered myself a bag of 100 10ml vials from a different supplier, they come sterile too. also got a 5000ml Erlenmeyer which I can't wait to put to use.


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## Gopha (26/8/10)

Hi, At room temp say 22C, if i have smacked my yeast pack and given it a good shake, how long should I leave it before harvesting part of the it and pitching into starter? Do not wont mini grenades in the fridge- Cheers


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## Pennywise (26/8/10)

Gopha said:


> Hi, At room temp say 22C, if i have smacked my yeast pack and given it a good shake, how long should I leave it before harvesting part of the it and pitching into starter? Do not wont mini grenades in the fridge- Cheers




The pack itself should explode, the time it takes to swell can vary, depending on the age of the pack. I think they say wait 24hrs for each month past it's package date. But really you don't need to wait till it's fully swelled before pitching, so long as it's swelled a bit you know it's active.
Once pitched into a starter, if I'm going to store some stubbies of yeast from it I just wait a week for it to ferment out, you should take a hydro reading though to make sure it's fermented out.


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## Synthetase (28/8/10)

Benniee said:


> The first is to be as clean and sanitary as you can. Tony mentions that he splits up his packs across some test tubes - if I were using this method what I'd do is place a small amount of water in the test tubes and then put them in a pressure cooker or autoclave for around 20 mins before I used them - allowing them to cool first of course. This would come close to sterilising them.


More than close, an autoclave will definitely sterilise. 121 degrees Celsius for 15 minutes at 101 kPa is the standard autoclave run for sterilising equipment/growth media, etc.



> The second would be the viability/mutation of yeast stored as a slurry at "fridge" temperatures for any great length of time. I don't have a lab where I could analyse this first hand so I'm simply going off what the yeast production companies recommend (Wyeast and White Labs). Viability is probably easy to live with, but mutations could/would change the characteristics of the yeast. Again, I'm simply repeating info that I have heard - not going off my personal experiences.


Mutations occur primarily due to (a) direct damage to DNA from external influences such as ionising radiation (X-rays, etc) and mutagenic chemicals (benzine, etc); and (b) DNA copy and repair errors made by the cells themselves. Now since the yeast is not growing in the fridge it's not going to be doing much in the way of DNA copying and it's not really exposed to mutagens, so I don't see it being a problem.


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## Thirsty Boy (28/8/10)

Synthetase said:


> More than close, an autoclave will definitely sterilise. 121 degrees Celsius for 15 minutes at 101 kPa is the standard autoclave run for sterilising equipment/growth media, etc.
> 
> 
> Mutations occur primarily due to (a) direct damage to DNA from external influences such as ionising radiation (X-rays, etc) and mutagenic chemicals (benzine, etc); and (B) DNA copy and repair errors made by the cells themselves. Now since the yeast is not growing in the fridge it's not going to be doing much in the way of DNA copying and it's not really exposed to mutagens, so I don't see it being a problem.



The mutations being referred to are generally going to be what is known as "petite mutants" or more accurately as respiratory deficient mutations. They plate up as smaller tighter little colonies. They have something wrong in the mitochondria (I cant remember exactly what to be honest and can't be buggered going to look it up) and they ferment and produce flavor characteristics differently to non RD yeast. Stressed, low viability low vitality yeast are far more likely to throw RD mutants in their decendant generation. Not too bad an issue if you just grow up a culture, use it and discard, you might notice a little drift in character. But if you plan to repitch the yeast multiple times.... Then it might well become an issue.


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## Synthetase (28/8/10)

Ah yes, the ol' 'small colony variant'. How I lothe thee.

Interestingly, given they are strict anaerobes, I would expect them to be well and truly out-competed in a well-aerated starter culture and therefore be a tiny minority of the total number of pitching cells, thus having little final impact. Of course you could always streak for single colonies but that's a whole other kettle of yeast.


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## MaltyHops (1/9/10)

Tony said:


> here are the 3 freshly filled tubes (left) and other older ones of varying strains on the right that have settles out in the fridge
> ...
> some older tubes..... the 1469 is 14 months old and will be slow to start but will fire no problems.
> ...
> ...


Hi Tony,

+'s on thanks for posting this ... I've just done a smack pack split last night
and now have a few tubes from the pack, a few inoculated slants that hopefully
will take as well as a Mystery Belgian bubbling along quite nicely 

Anyway, was wondering whether it would be worthwhile adding nutrients to the 
tubes of divided smack pack to help extend their viability. I was thinking of using
the unused dry yeast packs from kits that I'm now ending up after boiling them
first.

Also, when using killed yeast as nutrients, can the packet be boiled unopened and
then sprinkled into the tubes, or do the dry yeast need to be boiled in water and
then added?

Regards,
Tom.


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## praxis178 (1/9/10)

Synthetase said:


> Ah yes, the ol' 'small colony variant'. How I lothe thee.
> 
> Interestingly, given they are strict anaerobes, I would expect them to be well and truly out-competed in a well-aerated starter culture and therefore be a tiny minority of the total number of pitching cells, thus having little final impact. Of course you could always streak for single colonies but that's a whole other kettle of yeast.



Just read the streaking link, and had a look in my workshop (where I keep everything that might one day be useful), for the following: Autoclave [check], microscope (Olympus bino research job)[check], bunsenburner [check]...... hmmmm looks like the yeast lab is just looking for a room to exist in now......

I've been lugging the autoclave around from house to house now for the better part of a decade, and the microscope cost (used) US$1200 nine years ago.... Gee home-brewing can become an expensive hobby can't it?


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## Acasta (2/8/11)

So tony does double batches.
If I wanted to apply this to my single batch process, would I be ok with splitting the yeast 4 ways and only using a 1L starter?
I used Mr. Malty calc, and it says that 1 pack is needed with a 1.33L starter, when set on "intermittent shaking". So is it still possible to use 1/4 per starter?

Beersmith2 is telling me I need a started of 2.93L using 2 packs of yeast. Im confused.


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## [email protected] (2/8/11)

Acasta said:


> So tony does double batches.
> If I wanted to apply this to my single batch process, would I be ok with splitting the yeast 4 ways and only using a 1L starter?
> I used Mr. Malty calc, and it says that 1 pack is needed with a 1.33L starter, when set on "intermittent shaking". So is it still possible to use 1/4 per starter?
> 
> Beersmith2 is telling me I need a started of 2.93L using 2 packs of yeast. Im confused.




It can be a bit of a guessing game the old yeast. 
IMO i would go by MR Malty calculator, i have had great results using it.

This might interest you as well, its a Beersmith article, most of the info taken from the Yeast book funnily enough.

Edit link : http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2011/01/10/y...ng-beer-part-2/

I use the charts in conjunction with mr malty for measuring my actual yeast slurry, from farming /starters.
Also good for if you are restarting a small amount of washed yeast to more accurately guesstimate your % of live yeast in given sample.
You can then use the charts in the Beersmith article to work out your inoculation rate and growth rate, get out your own calculator and work out how many yeast cells you have after growing your starters ect.

hope that makes some sense


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## Wolfy (2/8/11)

Acasta said:


> So tony does double batches.
> If I wanted to apply this to my single batch process, would I be ok with splitting the yeast 4 ways and only using a 1L starter?
> I used Mr. Malty calc, and it says that 1 pack is needed with a 1.33L starter, when set on "intermittent shaking". So is it still possible to use 1/4 per starter?
> 
> Beersmith2 is telling me I need a started of 2.93L using 2 packs of yeast. Im confused.


If you have a very fresh pack of yeast (only a week or so after manufacture) you could most likely pitch even 1/4 of a pack directly into a 1.33L starter and end up with about the same cell count as pitching the full pack.
However, if your pack is older (which is most likely if you live in Australia) you might find it better to step the starter (pitch the 1/4 of a pack into a smaller starter before pitching that starter into the final one).

Recommended starter sizes/pitching rates can vary a great deal, even published information suggests pitching rates that can be 10x different.
The MrMalty calculator is based on the 'industry standard' pitching rates that is taught to commercial brewers, and much research to determine yeast growth when new/fresh packs/vials of yeast are pitched directly into the starter. However since you are splitting your pack applying the MrMalty calculations directly to your scenario makes things a little more difficult and you need to make more assumptions, however if you come close to what is suggested, you'll likely be in the same ball-park and not have to worry.


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## Acasta (3/8/11)

What type of simple method would you recommend for a beginner doing 20L singles.


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## Wolfy (3/8/11)

Acasta said:


> What type of simple method would you recommend for a beginner doing 20L singles.


The exact size depends more on your starter containers than anything else, but a 250-400ml first step, then a 1.25-2L second step would work fine with an older split-pack.
If you need more info on starter containers, and making the starter hopefully this answers most questions: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=54900


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## [email protected] (3/8/11)

Wolfy is on the money for sure.

I will give this *example* anyway.

Smack pack - 2monts old 

54% viability 

We will say 50 billion cells, split 4 ways = 12.5 billion cells.

1048 ale , 20L = 178 billion cells needed

1 billion cells into a liter is the same as 1 million cells per milliliter.

SO - we would have 25 mill cells per ml, if you went straight into a 500ml starter.
Giving you a growth rate of around X 3 (maybe X 4 if your shaking often during growth phase) : 3 X 12.5 billion = 37.5 billion cells, so we will say you now have 40 billion because you shook it often  

Let this ferment out, chill , let yeast settle, decant liquid, let the yeast come back to room temp or same temp as new wort.

If you added this to 1.5 L starter with shaking swirling during growth phase you could get the same growth rate again X 3 or 4
Which will put you close enough to where you want to be.

Obvioulsy these numbers will change depending on the age of your split smack pack over time.
Mr Malty will tell you what % viabilty you have.


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## fergi (26/11/11)

Screwtop said:


> A good point. I have made 100g/1L wort for a starter and and ended up with wort of G 1.050 after a 10 min boil on the cooktop, not a raging boil, just a low boil, a trap for new players. Check the gravity of your starter wort!!!
> 
> Screwy





good point there screwy, never thought of that. thanks
fergi


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## under (29/11/11)

Hey Tony. Split as your instructions last year sometime. Got a few vials left over of some Wyeast 2035 - American Lager. How do you go about starters with the split vials. Do you still just dump the content of a single vial into a Litre of 1030-1040 starter wort? Or do you step them up from say 500ml to 2L then pitch? Im looking at a 42l batch.


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## stux (29/11/11)

under said:


> Hey Tony. Split as your instructions last year sometime. Got a few vials left over of some Wyeast 2035 - American Lager. How do you go about starters with the split vials. Do you still just dump the content of a single vial into a Litre of 1030-1040 starter wort? Or do you step them up from say 500ml to 2L then pitch? Im looking at a 42l batch.



Work out a triple-step starter regime with this calculator
http://yeastcalc.summitwoodwork.com/

Best to have larger growth steps first


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## brando (5/1/12)

Old thread, but it got me thinking...

Until now, when building a starter I have simply boiled the wort in my conical flask with aluminium foil on top. Then I let it cool down, add the yeast and stirbar, then whack it onto the stirplate (with al foil back on). 

The results have been not as much yeast slurry as expectd at the end of the 2-3 day starter process.

I normally leave the foil off the flask for the first 20mins or so after putting it onto the stirplate, but now I'm thinking that perhaps this isn't enough to aerate the wort sufficiently, especially considering the narrow mouth of the flask.

Thoughts??


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## lickapop (7/1/12)

Awesome tech.
One thing I have tried with the last couple of smack packs is give the pack a wipe over with 70%metho and jab the side with a 20ml syringe, draw off the yeast and store the syringe in the fridge.
When I make a starter I just get a syringe out, flame the tip and squirt it into the starter wort.

Another thing I have been meaning to ask when using a stir plate...I know most use foil over the mouth of their containers which to me is ok if you have positive co2 pressure. But when using a stir plate wouldnt it suck air in? 
I go to all the trouble of making sure everything is sterile and then sit it on the stir plate with foil over the mouth of the flask, turn it on and watch it suck in every mould spore / wild yeast spore in the room.
Is this how it works?
Sorry if this has been answered

I am thinking if you go to all the trouble of sterile procedures with your starters you may as well aerate your starter as you would your brew and use a bung and airlock??


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## [email protected] (7/1/12)

lickapop said:


> Awesome tech.
> One thing I have tried with the last couple of smack packs is give the pack a wipe over with 70%metho and jab the side with a 20ml syringe, draw off the yeast and store the syringe in the fridge.
> When I make a starter I just get a syringe out, flame the tip and squirt it into the starter wort.
> 
> ...


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## Tony (7/1/12)

I had a feeling i pid a post on this a while back.

Oh well... here is a more indepth article on the subject for those who missed it

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showarticle=192


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## Tony (7/1/12)

lickapop said:


> I am thinking if you go to all the trouble of sterile procedures with your starters you may as well aerate your starter as you would your brew and use a bung and airlock??



I find there is more risk with an airlock and the water in said airlock being sucked back into the brew.

Trust me, the foil works fine!

I have left fermented atarters sitting for up to a month with just foil and they have been fine!

cheers


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## lickapop (8/1/12)

thanks. I never thought about the vortex sucking water back through the airlock.
I know foil works, just thinking out of the box

I dont know yeast all that well yet. It must be aggressive and dominate because if I tried this with mycology the mould spores and bacteria from the air would dominate the mycelium(vegetating growing part of the mushroom) before it had a chance to grow.


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## Midnight Brew (23/2/12)

Just split my first smack pack and got 3x 25ml tubes of pure yeast and then 50ml straight into a 1L starter on a stir plate. This is so economical when it comes to splitting a pack and if its an older pack the best part is that you're gonna need a starter anyway.


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## Arghonaut (30/11/12)

Are proscitech still the best option for vials? Prices seem to have gone up, was going to cost me $35 delivered. Any cheaper options as i dont really need 50!


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## stux (30/11/12)

Tony said:


> I find there is more risk with an airlock and the water in said airlock being sucked back into the brew.
> 
> Trust me, the foil works fine!
> 
> ...



I've left unfermented wort, boiled and covered in foil for weeks with zero activity.

re-boiled anyway before pitching.

Louis Pasteur nailed this one a little while ago







"Some of Pasteur's preparations are at the Pasteur Institute, Paris where they continue to remain sterile for more than 100 years."




(not the actual flask)


When you put foil over your wort and boil it, you're doing the same thing.


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## Wolfy (30/11/12)

Stux said:


> When you put foil over your wort and boil it, you're doing the same thing.


... in theory.
In practice most home/home-brewing procedures are not quite sterile so a level of infection might be expected.


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## Tony (30/11/12)

I made a starter of Farmhouse ale using the methods detailed earlier on.

I let it ferment and put it under my bar until i got around to pitching it on a cube of hibiscus ale.

I never got around to it and found the starter about 3 weeks later...... still fine.

Stepped it up and pitched it into my Saison and its done in 4 days..... and tastes great.

The longest i have left one sit under a foil cap is 2 months and it was fine.

cheers


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