# Yeast Starter And Splitting Yeast Packs



## Tony (1/1/12)

After many many questions and PM's on this topic, i have put together an article on how i make a yeast starter and split a wyeast pack.

Its not the be all to end all........ its just a pictorial of how i do it.

I hope it helps some and if anyone has any queations... dont be afraid to ask.

cheers

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showarticle=192


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## beerbog (1/1/12)

Nice work Tony, a few quick questions, does 1 wyeast pack do 3 starters? (by splitting). The one and only starter I made was a 600ml only with Coopers Pale yeast. Worked well. Is there any minimum starter size you use with the vials? Also you mention pouring the liquid off before pitching. Is that the main starter you are talking about or the vials into the starter?

Thanks. :beerbang:


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## Dazza88 (1/1/12)

Very nice, do those vials come sterilised from the supplier for the first use? You only boil them for the second use onwards?


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## Tony (1/1/12)

Gibbo1 said:


> Nice work Tony, a few quick questions, does 1 wyeast pack do 3 starters? (by splitting). The one and only starter I made was a 600ml only with Coopers Pale yeast. Worked well. Is there any minimum starter size you use with the vials? Also you mention pouring the liquid off before pitching. Is that the main starter you are talking about or the vials into the starter?
> 
> Thanks. :beerbang:



yes i get 3 startes from the one pack. THe origional starter seen plus i repeat the sterter process but add a single vial to the cooled wort and off it goes.

I find one vial in a 2 liter starter is good enough to ferment 50 liters..... although if the yeast is old and a bit slow i will tip off the liquid and vive it a 2nd ferment in the starter to make sure its really healthy before pitching

It really comes down to the brewer. I can show you how i do it but you have to be the one to learn to watch the yeast and get to know whats a strong starter and whats a weak starter... usually determined by how fast it finnishes dependant on temperature and the yeast.

I can give you info but not experience unfortuantely...... you need to get that by having a go at it. 

I tip the liquid of the completed starter once the yeast has settled out....... if its fermented warm you dont want to tip fruity starter liquid into the brew.... you will taste it. 

The entire vial goes in the starter... liquid and all.

Make sure you shake up the vial first as the yeast tends to stick in the bottom over time.




DazDog said:


> Very nice, do those vials come sterilised from the supplier for the first use? You only boil them for the second use onwards?



No idea!
Its not much work to boil them.... your not that hard up for time are ya 

I wouldnt use them without steralising them somehow first.

cheers


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## Rowy (1/1/12)

Tony,
Thanks mate I've been wondering about how to do this but didn't know how. Great article cheers! :beer:


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## Murcluf (1/1/12)

Excellent article Tony, I've always add the whole smack pack in the starter, built it up and vialed off at the end of propergation prior to pitching. Have never thought of vialing off straight out of the smack pack before building the starter. Will have to give it a go with a couple of smack packs I have in the fridge.


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## RdeVjun (1/1/12)

Nice one Tony! B) 
There's a few different ways to deal with a new smackpak, this is one way to get much more value out of it simply and cheaply. For seasonal/ PC strains I'd recommend this sort of thing as a minimum, if you're serious and prepared to put in a small amount of effort then this will be well worth doing. 

WRT fermented starter wort in my experience it can be very disconcerting to actually taste the stuff as it is usually pretty naff, however your experiences will have to guide you- if it tastes really wrong then its probably best to bin it, but remember it started as a fairly weak wort and has probably been oxygenated to buggery during the ferment too, so sadly it just isn't going to taste like Torpedo or TTL, it should be thin, bland and miserable. Measuring the SG will also give you some confidence that it hasn't hyperattenuated, a really low SG would be a reasonable indication of infection, say <1.008 would be suspect, I've never had one much lower than that.


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## Rowy (1/1/12)

RdeVjun said:


> Nice one Tony! B)
> There's a few different ways to deal with a new smackpak, this is one way to get much more value out of it simply and cheaply. For seasonal/ PC strains I'd recommend this sort of thing as a minimum, if you're serious and prepared to put in a small amount of effort then this will be well worth doing.
> 
> WRT fermented starter wort in my experience it can be very disconcerting to actually taste the stuff as it is usually pretty naff, however your experiences will have to guide you- if it tastes really wrong then its probably best to bin it, but remember it started as a fairly weak wort and has probably been oxygenated to buggery during the ferment too, so sadly it just isn't going to taste like Torpedo or TTL, it should be thin, bland and miserable. Measuring the SG will also give you some confidence that it hasn't hyperattenuated, a really low SG would be a reasonable indication of infection, say <1.008 would be suspect, I've never had one much lower than that.




Happy new year Ralph! :beer:


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## beerbog (2/1/12)

Thanks Tony, info much appreciated. Might get a pack and give it a crack. 
At the moment I am just reusing slurry from previous batches. This is the next step. 
Cheers. :beerbang:


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## Nick JD (2/1/12)

Nice article. The info on smacking the pack and maybe waiting days is great.

No starsan on the smackpack? I'm always paranoid about that as I hate to think how many greasy, tuna sandwiches and not-washing-hands-after-peeing people have had their mits on that pack between Oregon and here!


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## stux (2/1/12)

This is my preferred way of saving yeast. I seem to have a wild yeast problem in my area, so find yeast rinsing too unreliable

I no longer smack the packs and I split the into 4 30ml vials

I boil up the wort in the flask with my stir bar


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## tiprya (2/1/12)

Great article, I'm just looking into getting started with liquid yeast - thanks!

Any suggestions on where I could get one of those 2L flasks?


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## stux (2/1/12)

tiprya said:


> Great article, I'm just looking into getting started with liquid yeast - thanks!
> 
> Any suggestions on where I could get one of those 2L flasks?



I got my whole family of flasks from
http://livingstone.com.au/

0.5, 1, 2 and 5


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## TidalPete (2/1/12)

Nick JD said:


> Nice article. The info on smacking the pack and maybe waiting days is great.
> 
> No starsan on the smackpack? I'm always paranoid about that as I hate to think how many greasy, tuna sandwiches and not-washing-hands-after-peeing people have had their mits on that pack between Oregon and here!



I like to keep a small sprayer of metho handy for splitting smackpacks. Spray everything --- hands, scissors, smackpack, anything that comes in contact & split the pack with a sterilised syringe (50c) from the chemist.
My preferred method is not to smack the pack before splitting. Have split into as many as eight tubes with success. Use the nutrient pack in the boil next brewday.
Very informative thread Tony. :icon_cheers: 

TP


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## JDW81 (2/1/12)

Great article. Lots of useful tips and very easily understood. I'll be giving this a shot when I brew next.

Question regarding vial storage. Are they ok to store in my kitchen fridge, or does it need to be in a more sterile environment? Just concerned about various contaminents which may be lurking in my fridge (sourdough starter for one).

Thanks for taking the time to put this together. 

:beer: 

JD.


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## [email protected] (2/1/12)

JDW81 said:


> Great article. Lots of useful tips and very easily understood. I'll be giving this a shot when I brew next.
> 
> Question regarding vial storage. Are they ok to store in my kitchen fridge, or does it need to be in a more sterile environment? Just concerned about various contaminents which may be lurking in my fridge (sourdough starter for one).
> 
> ...



I store in the food fridge, but i have a bottom shelf yeast zone only.
I would be hesitant about storing with a sour dough culture, just asking for trouble IMO.


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## TidalPete (2/1/12)

Dedicated bottom shelf in the kitchen fridge. All your tubes\vials should be tightly sealed & impervious to contaminents but why tempt fate? Put your sourdough culture somewhere else.

TP


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## ShredMaster (2/1/12)

Awesome article Tony!! I'm planning to start to practice reculturing yeast from various sources so I can get it right when I want to use some for an actual brew.

How many ml are those vials? I'm trying to salvage those tiny glass bottles from Masterfoods spices (cinnamon etc) as they seem to be about the right size for tubes/vials. Probably going to use softdrink bottles to start out with until I can get some funky looking flasks, vials and a white labcoat.

Cheers,
Shred.


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## Tony (2/1/12)

Nick JD said:


> Nice article. The info on smacking the pack and maybe waiting days is great.
> 
> No starsan on the smackpack? I'm always paranoid about that as I hate to think how many greasy, tuna sandwiches and not-washing-hands-after-peeing people have had their mits on that pack between Oregon and here!



A squirt with Starsan cant hurt!




JDW81 said:


> Great article. Lots of useful tips and very easily understood. I'll be giving this a shot when I brew next.
> 
> Question regarding vial storage. Are they ok to store in my kitchen fridge, or does it need to be in a more sterile environment? Just concerned about various contaminents which may be lurking in my fridge (sourdough starter for one).
> 
> ...



Cant see why not..... just hit em with a bit of starsan before you open them... should be fine.




ShredMaster said:


> Awesome article Tony!! I'm planning to start to practice reculturing yeast from various sources so I can get it right when I want to use some for an actual brew.
> 
> How many ml are those vials? I'm trying to salvage those tiny glass bottles from Masterfoods spices (cinnamon etc) as they seem to be about the right size for tubes/vials. Probably going to use softdrink bottles to start out with until I can get some funky looking flasks, vials and a white labcoat.
> 
> ...



Mate... just order the vials. They are perfectly suited to the task.

You can boil them without them distorting, they wont go BANG and send shards of glass flying if the yeast in the tube decides to ferment for some reason and i wouldnt trust the seal on the spice jars.... they arent made to seal they way we need for yeast storage.

I put a link to the flasks (30ml) in the article but here it is again.

http://www.proscitech.com.au/cataloguex/online.asp?page=l9

Product code: LS22-30 Sample tubes, PP, conical bottom free-standing, sterile, 30mL AUD16.00 /pk/50 (about half way down the page)

$16 for 50..... why would you use anything else?

cheers


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## Phoney (2/1/12)

I use urine sample jars (80 cents ea from the chemist). You cant boil them for more than about 10 seconds without going out of shape, but ive never had a problem with just sanitizing them with starsan after they come out of the dishwasher...


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## thebeemann (2/1/12)

Hey Tony thanx for the info i was going to try making slants but this is a bit easier , 1 question if i used dry yeast how much of the pack would you use per vial ? cheers and happy new year . :super:


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## QldKev (2/1/12)

Great info Tony, hopefully will get some new brewers into splitting starters and looking at reusing yeast


QldKev


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## Tony (2/1/12)

phoneyhuh said:


> I use urine sample jars (80 cents ea from the chemist). You cant boil them for more than about 10 seconds without going out of shape, but ive never had a problem with just sanitizing them with starsan after they come out of the dishwasher...



the vials are 32c each  plus freight

Bet if you only ever going to use a few its a good option

Whats the volume of the pee pee jars ?




thebeemann said:


> Hey Tony thanx for the info i was going to try making slants but this is a bit easier , 1 question if i used dry yeast how much of the pack would you use per vial ? cheers and happy new year . :super:



You dont need to do this for dry yeast mate...... just keep the dry yeast packs in the fridge.

Its for splitting a liquid yeast pack to get more use from the pack (cause we are tight arse home brewers) and gives you a bit of a "yeast library" to chose from when brewing. 




QldKev said:


> Great info Tony, hopefully will get some new brewers into splitting starters and looking at reusing yeast
> 
> 
> QldKev




That was the plan mate...... i get a lot of questions and its hard to give a "good" answer on how to do it with little spare time

Im glad people are finding it useful..... makes the work worth it. 

It may not be the perfect method for some, and there are variations on how to do this, but its the basic theory of how its done i wanted to portray to less experienced brewers. Seeing something in images can really crarify text i think.

Cheers


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## Phoney (2/1/12)

Tony said:


> the vials are 32c each  plus freight
> 
> Bet if you only ever going to use a few its a good option
> 
> Whats the volume of the pee pee jars ?



No idea. diameter = 5cm, height = 6cm, so 80 - 100mL at a guess?


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## [email protected] (2/1/12)

I use the piss jars from chemist the ones i have are 60ml to the mold line below where the thread for the lid starts.

I rinse them with boiling water that has been boiled repeatedly then starsan, not the ideal way to store yeast but have not had any problems as yet. They are good size for storing washed yeast samples for reuse in a starter later on.


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## Joshisgood (2/1/12)

Hey Tony, just about those vials you use, they're 30 ml right? And you split your yeast pack between two of them and the starter your making but a standard yeast pack is 125 ml (I think). So couldn't you put the yeast into 3 vials and still have a roughly equal amount for the starter? cheers mate great article, just what I was looking for.


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## thebeemann (2/1/12)

You dont need to do this for dry yeast mate...... just keep the dry yeast packs in the fridge.

Its for splitting a liquid yeast pack to get more use from the pack (cause we are tight arse home brewers) and gives you a bit of a "yeast library" to chose from when brewing. 


So i can use what say a third of a dry yeast pack at a time ? i am also a tight arse home brewer lol i pay 10 bucks for good dry yeast but it costs 30 in petrol to go to my local home brew shop , i might have a look at some liquid packs online but i have no experience using them , anyone know what an = to Vittners CY17 and SN9 would be ? cheers for all the info.


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## bradsbrew (2/1/12)

thebeemann said:


> You dont need to do this for dry yeast mate...... just keep the dry yeast packs in the fridge.
> 
> Its for splitting a liquid yeast pack to get more use from the pack (cause we are tight arse home brewers) and gives you a bit of a "yeast library" to chose from when brewing.
> 
> ...


Mate you would be better of collecting and washing some of the yeast in the bottom of the fermenter when its done.

Great article Tony, enough detail to make it a simple process.

Cheers


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## pk.sax (2/1/12)

beeman, just use little bits at a time and try to search for stepping up starters. Essentially, if you skip the whole liquid yeast part of this guide and just use your source wort/must in a small volume to aid the yeast to grow that would be same as stepping it up before pitching into the main brew.

Great info Tony. I'm lazy as so I just drop the vials into the electric kettle and give it a couple of boils before straining them out and using immediately. Bottle the wort hot so no need to reboil before pitching to make a starter. Starsan is all my starter flask gets. Prolly not a good thing though...


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## TidalPete (2/1/12)

bradsbrew said:


> Mate you would be better of collecting and washing some of the yeast in the bottom of the fermenter when its done.
> 
> Great article Tony, enough detail to make it a simple process.
> 
> Cheers



Agree with Bradley,

There's no problem farming the spent yeast of a brew fermented with a dry yeast. I've done this a few times to stretch out the $$$$'s spent on "twin packs" with no hassles but only go 2 x generations to be safe.

TP


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## Nick JD (2/1/12)

TidalPete said:


> Agree with Bradley,
> 
> There's no problem farming the spent yeast of a brew fermented with a dry yeast. I've done this a few times to stretch out the $$$$'s spent on "twin packs" with no hassles but only go 2 x generations to be safe.
> 
> TP



I find 4 generations is fine - but I always have a paper towel and rubber band over the jerry fermenter's oulet when bottling to stop dust getting sucked in when transfering. This IMO is where you can run into issues when storing trub.


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## Mattress (2/1/12)

ordered some vials last night.

Tahnks for this article. Anyhting that makes brewing a bit better and a bit cheaper has got to be good


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## thebeemann (2/1/12)

TidalPete said:


> Agree with Bradley,
> 
> There's no problem farming the spent yeast of a brew fermented with a dry yeast. I've done this a few times to stretch out the $$'s spent on "twin packs" with no hassles but only go 2 x generations to be safe.
> 
> ...


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## [email protected] (2/1/12)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=55409

There you go.
Are you using the site search? use the google box its much better


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## thebeemann (2/1/12)

Beer4U said:


> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=55409
> 
> There you go.
> Are you using the site search? use the google box its much better




Cheers Mate .


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## TidalPete (2/1/12)

Beer4U said:


> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=55409
> 
> There you go.
> Are you using the site search? use the google box its much better


Wolfy's thread is excellent & informative just as is the much older info from Chiller who taught me this stuff. 
View attachment Chiller__s_Yeast_Farming_etc.doc


TP


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## Tony (2/1/12)

Joshisgood said:


> Hey Tony, just about those vials you use, they're 30 ml right? And you split your yeast pack between two of them and the starter your making but a standard yeast pack is 125 ml (I think). So couldn't you put the yeast into 3 vials and still have a roughly equal amount for the starter? cheers mate great article, just what I was looking for.



Hell yeah you can !!!

I used to make 3 vials but ended up with a lot of vials because i use a lot of different yeasts. It was then a 12 month struggle to use up all the vials before they got too old. A lot of them at 2 years of age still fired up. Slowly and the starters needed stepping up but they went and worked perfectly.

For me, 3 batches (50 liters a batch) is enough but if you only usually use 2 or 3 different yeasts, 4 from the pack and 1 repitch each is 8 from a pack with ease!


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## JDW81 (2/1/12)

TidalPete said:


> Dedicated bottom shelf in the kitchen fridge. All your tubes\vials should be tightly sealed & impervious to contaminents but why tempt fate? Put your sourdough culture somewhere else.
> 
> TP




I would move it elsewhere but at present only have one fridge. I'll give it a shot and see what happens. Worst case scenario I only get one brew from a pack.


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## tiprya (3/1/12)

Is there any reason you wouldn't collect the yeast vials after growing the starter?

If you collected the vials of yeast from the starter just before pitching, wouldn't that yeast have grown more cells, and thus you're able to pitch more to your current beer?

Thanks - this is a very good article.


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## Tony (3/1/12)

tiprya said:


> Is there any reason you wouldn't collect the yeast vials after growing the starter?
> 
> If you collected the vials of yeast from the starter just before pitching, wouldn't that yeast have grown more cells, and thus you're able to pitch more to your current beer?
> 
> Thanks - this is a very good article.



Yes you can but the idea here isnt to pitch more cells from the vial..... its to save the first gen yeast from the pack to build up before pitching.

If you ferment it in the starter, then save it, then fermeent it again in a starter, then add it to your brew..... its done a bit more, and if you have a small bug in your starter...... your entire system of vials for that yeast is ruined.

Strait from the smack pack is safe.

strait from the smack pack means its as fresh as your going to get it.

Another thing to remember is that each time yeast ferments, the stronger of the bunch survive and the weaker die....... its life! For the brew this means each time you repitch the yeast..... it will be a bit different. we call it mutation.

with some yeasts, it may get better over a few brews, but with others like some belgian and wheat yeasts that produce complex esters which are important to their use....... the usually stop producing these esters and flavours because the yeast mutates, and the weaker cells that made the funky flavours we love soooo much reduce in volume, while oter stronger cleaner or worse... blander cells get stronger.

So thats why i save from the pack. Its one less ferment closer to perfection!

cheers


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## tiprya (3/1/12)

Ok - thanks heaps for the explanation Tony.

Reading through all of the info now about stepping up yeasts etc, I'll just have to account for the lower initial yeast count in my starter (from collecting the vials) and step it up more to get to the correct pitching rate.


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## JoeF (1/2/12)

Awesome article Tony - Thank you!

I used this method the first time recently for a lager yeast (Wyeast 2287) and found I only had some slight krausen for a day or two, just small thin white foam and then it dissapated quite quickly. I've been intermitantly swirling and now the yeast has settled to a cake. Is this normal to have little or no krausen for a lager yeast? Should I pour out the wort and taste it and add some more to 'step it up' as the cake is still rather small and being a lager yeast I want to be sure I have enough to pitch into 23 litres?! 

Thanks in advance


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## stux (1/2/12)

Joe Pilsner said:


> Awesome article Tony - Thank you!
> 
> I used this method the first time recently for a lager yeast (Wyeast 2287) and found I only had some slight krausen for a day or two, just small thin white foam and then it dissapated quite quickly. I've been intermitantly swirling and now the yeast has settled to a cake. Is this normal to have little or no krausen for a lager yeast? Should I pour out the wort and taste it and add some more to 'step it up' as the cake is still rather small and being a lager yeast I want to be sure I have enough to pitch into 23 litres?!
> 
> Thanks in advance



Did you pitch into a starter volume?

You can use this website to calculate your starter steps

http://yeastcalc.com/

If you split a wyeast 4 ways, then use 25Billion as the initial cellcount, and the same production date. I normally do a double step starter for fresh yeast, and a triple step if its ancient


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## cdbrown (1/2/12)

From the yeast website - for a pilsner with OG1.047 and volume 42L I need 735B cells. I figure I'll need 3 steps from 1 - 2.5 - 5L in order to get the required cell count from a split pack. Going straight to a 5L won't be enough. Great website as I would have probably underpitched thinking a straight 5L would be good enough on a stir plate.

Now for stepping do you step it each day or maybe every 2nd day?


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## JoeF (1/2/12)

Stux said:


> Did you pitch into a starter volume?
> 
> You can use this website to calculate your starter steps
> 
> ...




Hey Stux

Thanks for the reply and the link

Yep, I pitched @ 24c into an Erlenmyer flask 1 litre of wort, made with 100gms of LDME boiled for 10mins, then stepped after 2 days with another 400mls of wort (I ran out of LDME!) 

I now have more DME and am wondering if I should to a 1 or 1.5 litre step? Taste and discard the 'old' wort whilst leaving the yeast cake and add more wort?

I'm not 100% sure...

Also, in the link does the 'starter volume' in the 2nd and 3rd step refer to the total volume, as in 1.5ltr + 1.5 ltrs = 3 ltrs for the second step or just how much is added each step?

Thanks again


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## cdbrown (1/2/12)

Joe Pilsner said:


> Hey Stux
> 
> Thanks for the reply and the link
> 
> ...



I always thought it was just topping up the volume, but after looking at the Care and Feeding of Your Yeast link on that page, he says to chill, decant, allow to warm and add the next step volume.



> Let your wort ferment at around 70 degrees for 24 hours.
> Put the vessel in the refrigerator and let it chill for 12 24hrs. This will vary depending on the floccability of the yeast.
> Carefully decant the spent wort from the yeast, leaving just enough wort to produce a thin slurry.
> If one step was all you needed to reach your optimum pitching rate; let the slurry warm up to room temperature and pitch it into your wort.
> If you need to step it up. Its time to make your second starter; its probably no surprise that the second starter is made in exactly the same way as the first starter. Once the second step has chilled, transfer the wort onto the yeast slurry in the first starter, once again using proper sanitation methods. Let this second volume of wort ferment as before, chill, decant, and pitch.


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## cdbrown (2/2/12)

I've got an old irish ale (WY1084) from June 10 and london ale 3 (WY1318) from April 09 so they both have very very low viability. Would I be best off making a starter for these and trying to build the cells up to 100B or so before doing the split into containers? I forgot that I had them, but am planning on using this year hopefully.


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## Pennywise (2/2/12)

Thanks for the link Stux, very helpful :icon_cheers:


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## [email protected] (2/2/12)

cdbrown said:


> I've got an old irish ale (WY1084) from June 10 and london ale 3 (WY1318) from April 09 so they both have very very low viability. Would I be best off making a starter for these and trying to build the cells up to 100B or so before doing the split into containers? I forgot that I had them, but am planning on using this year hopefully.



Yeah i would, this is what i would do.
Not bother smacking them, use the nutrient sachet in your starter wort, then steps of 100ml, 500ml then 1 - 2L.
Let the last stage of starter ferment out and clear on its own at ferment temps, then decant spent wort and wash the yeast.
After that split it up into smaller container or vile for longer term storage in the fridge.


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## cdbrown (2/2/12)

Ordered the 30ml containers but just got a call saying they were now all out of stock (labelled and unlabelled). Thankfully the 50ml containers are in stock and only a few $ more.

So are you suggesting to just top up the starter or follow the chill, decant, new wort, repeat. Ferment for a day 100ml, chill the next and decant, ferment for a day 500ml, chill the next and decant, ferment for a few days 2L which by that stage should have lots of fresh yeast, chill and decant and split.


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## RobW (2/2/12)

Nice article Tony. 

Can I suggest that you spray the aluminium foil that covers the flask with sanitiser too.

Also don't leave any cultures with the lid off for longet than is absolutely necessary and as suggested already give the caps of your vials a spray before you open them as well.


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## [email protected] (2/2/12)

cdbrown said:


> Ordered the 30ml containers but just got a call saying they were now all out of stock (labelled and unlabelled). Thankfully the 50ml containers are in stock and only a few $ more.
> 
> So are you suggesting to just top up the starter or follow the chill, decant, new wort, repeat. Ferment for a day 100ml, chill the next and decant, ferment for a day 500ml, chill the next and decant, ferment for a few days 2L which by that stage should have lots of fresh yeast, chill and decant and split.



I give the 100ml a couple of days, then add to 500ml - i then let the 500ml ferment out and drop bright at ferment temps( 2 - 4 days depending on the yeast ) then decant spent wort and step up to 1 - 2L depending on how much yeast i want to grow, then let that ferment out and clear and only use the slurry. All my wort for farming is 1032 - 1035

Of course you can do the overnight chill to help drop the yeast out, this is how i started out doing it, but after doing some further reading on yeast, i prefer to let it all happen and ferment temps, i find i get a clearer spent wort rather than trying to force it through chilling. IMO the yeast will be healthier not going through the chill / warm cycle several times.

It takes some more planing, 7 - 10 days in advance of when you are going to brew, but i find its worth it for happy healthy yeast.


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## craigev (2/2/12)

Anyone know, if splitting after making the 2L starter, will the resultant vials follow the same viability depreciation levels as shown in the yeast calc ? eg approx 50% after 2 months from making the starter ( assuming the original smack pack was 100% viable at the time of starting)

Or is this considered as slurry and depreciates even more than pure liquid yeast ?


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## [email protected] (2/2/12)

craige said:


> Anyone know, if splitting after making the 2L starter, will the resultant vials follow the same viability depreciation levels as shown in the yeast calc ? eg approx 50% after 2 months from making the starter ( assuming the original smack pack was 100% viable at the time of starting)
> 
> Or is this considered as slurry and depreciates even more than pure liquid yeast ?



Use the slurry calculator here http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html


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## craigev (3/2/12)

Beer4U said:


> Use the slurry calculator here http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html



Thanks, but unfortunately I think the "slurry" they are calculating for in that calc is for harvested yeast from normally fermented beer slurry. It predicts viability of only 10% after slurry is kept for about 7 weeks. This is undoubtedly true for beer slurry, but what about starter slurry ?

I have used starter slurry after 2 months and, although I always start the slurry again in 2L on a stir-plate, you would surely get a pretty poor fermentation starting with only 10% viable yeast !

anyone know about the deterioration of viabilty of slurry harvested from starter wort ? Maybe its mid way between liquid yeast and normal beer slurry ?

without having some clue its pretty pointless using a calculator.


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## [email protected] (3/2/12)

craige said:


> Thanks, but unfortunately I think the "slurry" they are calculating for in that calc is for harvested yeast from normally fermented beer slurry. It predicts viability of only 10% after slurry is kept for about 7 weeks. This is undoubtedly true for beer slurry, but what about starter slurry ?
> 
> I have used starter slurry after 2 months and, although I always start the slurry again in 2L on a stir-plate, you would surely get a pretty poor fermentation starting with only 10% viable yeast !
> 
> ...



I farm my yeast and only pitch starter slurry, which i wash, measure and store for later use. 
The viability of the yeast may be slightly better than that of a full batch of beer slurry, especially if that has not been washed.
All you have to do is play around with the slide bars on the calculator, ie: increase your estimated cell count / ml from the default setting 2.4b/ml.
Put the non yeast % down to 5% or zero if you like.
Its the most accurate your going to get unless you have a microscope. At least using that calculator gets you in the ballpark, gives you some idea about the quantity of yeast your pitching, and if you follow the same procedures again and again you can work out which settings work the best for your setup, which will lead to more consistent yeast handling and more consistent fermentation.

EDIT: this yeast calculator is also excellent - http://www.yeastcalc.com/
Also unless your re-pitching onto a whole yeast cake its pretty hard to over pitch with slurry and even if you did it would only be slightly over, which IMO is better than under pitching.


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## cdbrown (10/2/12)

I smacked the 2 yo irish yeast and it took about 3 days to fully swell so happy with that. I did a 200ml starter mainly because 100ml in the 2L flask on the stirbar wasn't going to work with the slightly concave base. Anyway it's been on the stirplate for about 5 or so days at 20c. I meant to top it up with 500ml wort earlier in the week but just didn't have the time so hopefully will get to it tonight. It should be all ok to build after being so long on the stirplate? If I get it going tonight I'll leave for a few days before switching off to settle, decant and then add a bigger wort starter.


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## [email protected] (10/2/12)

cdbrown said:


> I smacked the 2 yo irish yeast and it took about 3 days to fully swell so happy with that. I did a 200ml starter mainly because 100ml in the 2L flask on the stirbar wasn't going to work with the slightly concave base. Anyway it's been on the stirplate for about 5 or so days at 20c. I meant to top it up with 500ml wort earlier in the week but just didn't have the time so hopefully will get to it tonight. It should be all ok to build after being so long on the stirplate? If I get it going tonight I'll leave for a few days before switching off to settle, decant and then add a bigger wort starter.



I cant see it being a problem being on the stir plate for that long (happy to hear otherwise) except that it will be heavily oxidized which you should take into account with future taste tests. 

When you top it up remember to take into account the dilution to your new wort, from the 200ml you already have in there.


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## cdbrown (10/2/12)

Beer4U said:


> When you top it up remember to take into account the dilution to your new wort, from the 200ml you already have in there.



I don't quite get what you mean - can you explain please? edit - I get it now - need to bring the wort up to 1.040ish not just add new wort at 1.040. So take into account the 200ml is at 1.012 (guess)

I was concerned about the oxidation - the starters always smell and taste fairly ordinary.


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## raven19 (10/2/12)

Dilution is certainly something to take into account for larger starters for sure. 4L lager starter into a 20L batch is significant dilution (unless you chill down after the starter has consumed all the sugars).

I must admit I don't allow for any dilution with my beers. I do note down everything as best I can so I can recreate cracking beers though.


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## the_new_darren (10/2/12)

I heard Chris White say that the yeast straight from a pack/vial is usually healthier and more viable than the average HBers 500ml starter

tnd


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## raven19 (10/2/12)

Reads like a reasonable statement indeed. Considering the Lab processes they have in place compared to us 'dirty homebrewers'! :lol: 

A Smaller count of healthier yeast is superior than a Big starter of inferior yeast.


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## pyrosx (10/2/12)

the_new_darren said:


> I heard Chris White say that the yeast straight from a pack/vial is usually healthier and more viable than the average HBers 500ml starter
> 
> tnd



A commertcial yeast manufacturer encouraging people to buy new packs rather than farm them up themselves?

I'm shocked.


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## felten (11/2/12)

He's probably right, a 500ml starter is pointless with a fresh vial/pack, you won't get any growth out of it.


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## iralosavic (14/4/12)

So if you need 400 billion cells for a lager and you start with a 30ml sample (25billion cells), but let's assume 50% viability and go with 12.5 billion viable cells, what would the ideal starter stepping process be?

According to yeastcalc, the bigger the initial starter the higher final count after each step, but you want to avoid underpitching in starters too, so what is the ideal plan of attack here?

Multipliers of 4 for lagers have been mentioned, (although I'm not sure what the principal behind that is), so using this I would go

1. 100ml
2. 400ml
3. 1600ml

I now have 236 billion cells, according to yeastcalc, so I would need to add a fourth step involving a further 3L wort to get approximately 400b cells. Is this the safest, most efficient process or could a step be cut back somewhere?

Cheers

EDIT: Probably should have based the calculations of the viable yeast of 12.5b cells:

1. 50ml
2. 200ml
3. 800ml
4. 3200ml - still only ~ 300b cells - at this step, even a 5L starter would only achieve 367 (according to the calculator)
5. God knows - this is getting a bit silly.

So yeah, someone please help me!


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## freek (5/2/13)

Where is the article from the initial post on this new website? 
http://www.aussiehom...showarticle=192
The link is broken as it seems are all the other links from AHB articles.


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## MartinOC (6/6/13)

I second that emotion!


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## Adr_0 (11/7/13)

Awesome article and thread.

I have a quick - i.e. long, convoluted, repetitive, semi-distracted and eventually to the point - question:

If you have a marginal Wyeast/Whitelabs pack, e.g. beteween 1-20% viability, is there any advantage to splitting this pack into three vials VS throwing the whole lot into a starter and the splitting the resulting slurry?

Some more analysis just for what I'm getting at:
Scenario 1 (split Wyeast pack into three):
100bn cells, 40% viability = 60bn dead cells. Each vial will have 20bn dead cells, 13bn live/viable cells. One of these is stepped through starters for a growth factor of ~20, so maybe *260*bn live cells going into the primary.

Brewing a month apart with these you might get further reduction in viability (20%, 10%), taking a guess at your pre-fermernation total cells maybe *150*bn and then *70*bn cells for the third vial. Don't take the numbers too literally, but you see where I'm going here.

Scenario 2 (full Wyeast pack, split primary slurry):
100bn cells, 40% viability = 40bn live cells, stepped through same starters ~20x = *800*bn cells going into Primary, another factor of 2-3 which hopefully puts it around 1500-2500bn (let's say 1500bn with 50-60% viability). Splitting this three ways gives 500bn decent cells per whack. Even loss of viability over 1-3mths (5-10% viability, 25-50bn) should get you needing just a small starter to wake everything up by the time you get to through it.


BUT... what are typical viability numbers after the yeasties have gone through a primary fermentation? A 1:10 or 1:20 step is a lot bigger than a normal 1:2 or 1:4 step, so is the viability right down?


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## Yob (21/4/14)

So Ive recently done this with 2 different Vials of Yeast, WLP001 and WLP099

After pitching there remains a tiny little bit of yeast in the vial, Ive added maybe 5-10ml of starter wort to the vial and done the old shake when pass, after a few days of this I then top up the vial and let go for another couple of days,




(pictured WLP099)

this then goes right into a 500ml starter and then onto a 2l starter, which I spin for 48 hours and then let ferment out and settle. I can either then use or split and freeze as desired. The one pictured below is destined fro Freezing.



(Pictured WLP001)

The one above was pitched from the 500ml to the 2l last night

:icon_cheers:


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