# Brown malt always gives harsh flavour



## mje1980 (14/9/15)

So, with my dark grains, for the last 5 years or so I've always added them late in the mash. Love the smoothness of the flavour, and always works well with all dark malts. Except brown malt and amber malt. I like beers like Fullers porter with brown malt but always when I use Amber or brown, I get an acrid harshness. 

Salts are almost always the same with my beer, usually a 50/50 mix of calcium sulphate and calcium chloride. Unless I want really dry n hoppy, or really malty, most beers, light or dark get the same with fine results.


It usually smooths with age but it's odd that I can do a beer with any other dark malt besides Amber or brown and drink it straight away no issue, but Amber and brown always need a bit of age. 

Is it just my tastebuds or what?!

Have a porter ready to bottle now which has 1% brown and is a little harsh in the sample. Was going to keg it but I might have to bottle it and leave it for a few months. I really wanted to smash it on tap sooner


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## Diesel80 (14/9/15)

Tried cold steeping them the night before and adding late to boil instead?
I am just reading about this, keen to give it a go.

Cheers,
D80


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## indica86 (14/9/15)

Probably just you.
I made two Porters over winter and they had 8% Brown Malt and were not harsh at all.


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## NewtownClown (14/9/15)

Are you actually getting any conversion when adding late? Kilned malts need to be mashed. How much do you add? Some say 10% max, others say 20% for Brown, 20-25% for Amber


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## manticle (14/9/15)

I have read that gypsum and dark malts are not a good marriage, particularly in less hoppy beers. Maybe try just cal chloride.


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## sponge (14/9/15)

I must be using some of the same batch, Mark.

I love a bit of brown malt in my porters but noticed it does need a little longer to mellow and smooth out than other dark/roast malts. I do lean more towards cal chloride than gypsum when dark malts are involved (normally around the 70/30 mark).

I've just learned to live with waiting another couple of weeks for beers with brown malt. Always worth the wait..

EDIT: Removed section about adding at end of mash. Looking back over my notes it's always been mashed with base malts which seems to line up with below comments regarding it requiring mashing.


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## GalBrew (14/9/15)

Don't you need to give brown malt a full mash as its a base malt?


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## rude (14/9/15)

I have some brown malt I want to use up hope I don't get the same harshness

I'm going to mash full time 90 min but add calcium hydroxide to get my mash PH in range

Have you used a water calc for you're beer what ph did you get how much sulphate

Will report back on my novice effort when done hopefully pleasantly surprised


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## dicko (14/9/15)

GalBrew said:


> Don't you need to give brown malt a full mash as its a base malt?


Yes,

Both Amber and Brown malts are made from pale malt initially and will need mashing.


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## antiphile (14/9/15)

Howdy mje

My understanding is that an acrid or astringent influence is the defining characteristic of a good brown malt (see, for example, this short article on BYO). If you were looking for a different flavour, I'd be looking at malt selection.


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## seamad (14/9/15)

Just kegged a porter with 10% brown malt, took a growler to a function on the weekend, everyone who had a taste commented on how "smooth " it was.
Used MO as base, with 5% each pale choc and english dark crystal ( cold steeped ) and 3% carabohemian in the mash with the brown. I double batch and used 12g Ca Chloride and 3.33g Gypsum in the mash.
I think there are 2 types of english brown malt, one being twice as dark ( in EBC) than the other, I use the lighter variety. If this is correct then it may explain why some get much more harshness from brown than others.


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## mje1980 (15/9/15)

NewtownClown said:


> Are you actually getting any conversion when adding late? Kilned malts need to be mashed. How much do you add? Some say 10% max, others say 20% for Brown, 20-25% for Amber


I only add very small amounts. If I use other dark malts this way i hit projected og.


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## mje1980 (15/9/15)

manticle said:


> I have read that gypsum and dark malts are not a good marriage, particularly in less hoppy beers. Maybe try just cal chloride.



With other dark malts this is not an issue when using gypsum.


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## mje1980 (15/9/15)

Cheers guys food for thought. I do like the result but not the waiting. Will keep trying. Might try all cal chloride on next one, though as mentioned even in stout my usual 50/50 gyps/cal chloride gives fine results.


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## MHB (15/9/15)

GalBrew said:


> Don't you need to give brown malt a full mash as its a base malt?


The definition of a "Base Malt" is that it has enough enzyme power to convert itself (at a minimum).
The darkest base malt is probably Munich 2 (dark Munich), any darker and the heat used to kiln the malt drying it and developing the colour kills off the enzymes.

There is no substitute for the toasty biscuity flavours that you get from Amber and Brown malt, trade off is that they do take time to mellow, but as a rule darker beer all improve more with time than do lighter beers - personally I would think 6 weeks+ to be a minimum.

My rule is, if the last beer in the keg was the best one - you started drinking it too soon.
Mark

spellow


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## dicko (15/9/15)

A good read here for those who may not have seen it.

http://byo.com/hops/item/1751-brown-malt





MHB said:


> The definition of a "Base Malt" is that it has enough enzyme power to convert itself (at a minimum).
> The darkest base malt is probably Munich 2 (dark Munich), any darker and the heat used to kiln the malt drying it and developing the colour kills off the enzymes.
> 
> There is no substitute for the toasty biscuity flavours that you get from Amber and Brown malt, trade off is that they do take time to mellow, but as a rule darker beer all improve more with time than do lighter beers - personally I would think 6 weeks+ to be a minimum.
> ...


Hi Mark,
so what is your take on mashing.....
would you mash it or just steep it??


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## MHB (15/9/15)

Mash it for sure!
most of the colour/flavour is in the husks unlike black/roast malt where its in the corn (see Carafa special - no husk lots of colour and flavour) so I think that steeping to extract the flavours you want will inevitably give the problematic ones too, so just steeping doesn't fix the problem, but you do give up all the potential extract you payed for to no benefit.
I think I would be hard pressed to design anything English and dark without one or both of them appearing

To minimise the harsher flavours: -
Acidify and add Ca to your sparge water
Lean more toward Cl than SO4 (Personally I use buffered Ca Lactate)
Sparge a bit cooler - don't go over 78oC ever
Longer boil to reduce polyphenols 90 minutes minimum
Longer maturity lower carbonation
One of the very few types of beers where I would think of skimming some of the early krausen (full of chunky phenols)
Mark


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## GalBrew (15/9/15)

MHB said:


> The definition of a "Base Malt" is that it has enough enzyme power to convert itself (at a minimum).
> The darkest base malt is probably Munich 2 (dark Munich), any darker and the heat used to kiln the malt drying it and developing the colour kills off the enzymes.
> 
> There is no substitute for the toasty biscuity flavours that you get from Amber and Brown malt, trade off is that they do take time to mellow, but as a rule darker beer all improve more with time than do lighter beers - personally I would think 6 weeks+ to be a minimum.
> ...


Wasn't porter originally made from 100% brown malt before pale malt existed? It (historically anyway) had to have sufficient diastatic power to covert, albeit not as efficiently as a pale malt base.


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## MHB (15/9/15)

Yes and no
Yes it was *a* brown malt but it wasn't the same as what we now call brown malt. In the old version most of the colour came from the mal being dried on a wooden floor with wood (and later coal) fired heat, a lot of the browning was reportedly from condensed smoke. I imagine the beer was very smoky flavoured, as well a full of Lacto, Bret, wild yeast...
Times have changed
Mark


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## mombius hibachi (15/9/15)

I made a British IPA last year with 3% Amber, which was 6%alc. Initially thought it was a complete failure, really harsh as you've described.
But after 3+ months in the keg, those flavours really settled and actually it reminded me a lot of Fullers 1845.
Also use Brown malt regularly, and patience is required... Worth the wait I reckon.
Cheers


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## NewtownClown (16/9/15)

If I had to wait three months for my IPA to come good, I would consider it a failure.


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## MHB (16/9/15)

Depends wether you are drinking for the alcohol or the flavour.
Some in fact most big beers take time to mature, people brag about drinking 10 or even 20 year old red wines, seriously, hard cheese's are matured for a year or more, lets not even mention Scotch, the bottle on my desk is old dam near old enough to ask out on a date, but AHB'ers whinge when someone suggests waiting more than a week for a really good beer to become a great beer.
Maturity can apply to more than just beer and wine - it applies to people to
Mark


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## Weizguy (16/9/15)

I agree, Mark.
Have noticed that my porter hits it's straps at 6 weeks.
As for the HUB Barleywine project, I expect to leave it for at least 6 months before it comes good.

The Old/Strong ale that I won my category with in the NSW 2006 Am Brewing State comp was about 2 years old and tasted like a nasty liquorice water until it matured. (It was 13.7% alc/vol).
*edit: It was up against my Berliner in the BOS round, but came in a credible second in that showdown.


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## mje1980 (16/9/15)

NewtownClown said:


> If I had to wait three months for my IPA to come good, I would consider it a failure.


You don't brew any Brett or sour beers then I'm guessing


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## Midnight Brew (16/9/15)

Me 1980, I too have that same struggle with bet malt. I could just never make it work for me in any percentage. I had JW Amber so can't comment on other brands. 

As for the brown malt, I use Simpsons (400ebc) and find that it requires no additional maturing in the three recipes I've used it in. 

My verdict is your tastebuds are not alone. I hope that's it's just my brewing practise but I hope to taste a good example of Amber malt in a beer.


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## mje1980 (16/9/15)

I'm going to re do mine, but up it from 1% to 5%. And then bottle it and forget it for 12 weeks. I go nuts waiting for my Brett beers to come along so I may as well add another beer to the shelf haha.


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## buckerooni (16/9/15)

another reason I'm getting a 3rd fridge, well, chest freezer - for conditioning and CC'ing and not interferring with my fermenting and dispensing  Got a porter with 10% brown malt that I think will need some time.


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## Markbeer (17/9/15)

I think everyones comments need to be taken on board in context of what brand of brown malt they are using.

Simpsons runs at 500ebc while TF is much lower at 150ebc as is gladfield.

So it really depends on the brand.


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## mje1980 (17/9/15)

No idea which brand mine is haha


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## Mardoo (17/9/15)

It'll be interesting to see. My last RIS was Simpson's Brown, and the most recent one was Baird's, which is one of the ones towards the lower end of the colour spectrum.


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## NewtownClown (17/9/15)

I said IPA. Not Stouts, Sours, Barleywine, DIPA, RIS, Old Ales, Strong Ales, et al. Nor did I say Cheese, Wines or Scotch.

An IPA in style with an max. OG of 1.070 is neither dark nor high alcohol. And best consumed fresh.

Even Mitch Stone would rather you not buy his IPA if it is more than 3 months from packaging - he wants you to experience the flavour and aroma when it is best.


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## MHB (17/9/15)

Mitch Stone, are you sure you don't mean Mitch Steel at Stone brewing?
If so I suspect we would be talking about an AIPA - very different kettle of fish, any beer that leads with hops is going to be hoppier younger and yes if you want hop dominated flavours the younger the better, the old motto for the earlier APA brewers was _14 Days from grain to brain_
IPA on the other hand evolved from a beer designed to travel halfway around the world in a wooden barrel, on sailing ships, so three months aging minimum - I said evolved from so there will be lots of factors affecting the maturation of the beer but it takes time to build the very specific flavours that make a great IPA aging is one of them.

I love the old X, XX, XXX, ... casks of Madeira getting marked every time they crossed the equator. Imagine a wine that improves being by being sloshed around in the hot hold of a wooden sailing ship
Mark


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## mje1980 (18/9/15)

Kegged my porter this morning, sample was much less harsh than previously. The Cara aroma, brown and choc are a very nice combo.


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## MHB (18/9/15)

If you want smooth, try the Chocolate Wheat, just sub for the Black/Roast grains in your recipe. Wheat has no husk so a lot of the potential for astringency goes out the window.
Mark


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## sponge (18/9/15)

I use midnight wheat in almost all of my porters and stouts. Love the smooth roast flavours it brings to the table.


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## seamad (18/9/15)

sponge said:


> I use midnight wheat in almost all of my porters and stouts. Love the smooth roast flavours it brings to the table.


how does it compare to carafa II ?


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## sponge (18/9/15)

To be honest I've only used carafa I and III, but I much prefer MW. It has a bit of coffee and chocolate in it, and incredibly black. I've used 85/15 ale/MW in a simple 'stout' and there's no sign of astringency at all.

Although I have only ever added it cold-steeped at mashout, as per all of my roast malts.


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## seamad (18/9/15)

sweet, might give it a try, only ever cold steep as well. Don't have any astringency problems, but have heard good raps for it.


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## MHB (18/9/15)

I much prefer the Weyermann to the Briess product, pretty much across the board. just find them cleaner and perhaps more elegant for want of a better term, like the difference between a BMW and a Chevy, purely a matter of personal taste, but its worth trying both and making up your own mind.
I don't ever cold steep, (well I have tried it in a Cascadian Dark Ale) but I use a malt to get the flavour, rather than just the colour.
Mark


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## manticle (18/9/15)

Plenty of delicious flavour in a cold steep Mark.


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## MHB (18/9/15)

Personal taste, like that cold drip coffee, Ok I tasted it but be buggered if I am ever going to part with money for it. Same isn't true of Iced Tea, well made it can be wonderful - just a matter of personal taste.
Mark


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## sponge (18/9/15)

I'll have to agree with mants here. Cold steeping gives plenty of flavour but just seems to have a much smoother profile than mashing with the main grist. I never used to cold steep but tried it a few years back and have done it ever since. Maybe it's just placebo effect but I've definitely noticed an improvement when using roast malts.


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## manticle (18/9/15)

Of course. I cold steep my dark malts for stouts and porters only - mostly so I don't need to worry about low mash pH but the smoothness that results gives a better flavour balance for my palate. Would never worry for a beer with a single dark/roast grain, never just for colour and if cold steeping, it is always overnight and still added to a hot mash for ten or so minutes.


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## MHB (18/9/15)

One of the best Stout makers I know (Shawn at Foghorn) will use up to 20% roast in some of his big stouts, personally never been quite that brave, but the stouts he makes are velvety smooth rich and full in flavour and the best I have ever tasted.
There are lots of ways to make good beer, my personal experience (both making and tasting others) with cold steeping is that its a lot like having a shower in a rain coat.
Not right and wrong just a matter of personal taste but its worth trying lots of options
M


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## manticle (18/9/15)

I love showering in a raincoat.
Feels kind of sexy and wrong at the same time.


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## mje1980 (19/9/15)

I always throw my dark malts in at the last 10mins of the mash. Smooth n yummy also. 



How long do the cold steepers steep for? And how much water?. Does it then go in at the end of the boil. 



I don't care if a method is non traditional if it works. I always got harshness from dark malts, but once I tried the late additions I've brewed possibly hundreds of dark beers with good success.


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## sponge (19/9/15)

I've done both overnight and pre-mash in (first thing I do whilst waiting for water to reach strike temp), so only 2 hours or so. I haven't noticed too much of a difference between the two so normally just do it first thing on a brew day. I normally only use a litre or two of water to steep, then I just throw it all in the mash as I ramp up to mash out temps.


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## manticle (19/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> I always throw my dark malts in at the last 10mins of the mash. Smooth n yummy also.
> How long do the cold steepers steep for? And how much water?. Does it then go in at the end of the boil.
> I don't care if a method is non traditional if it works. I always got harshness from dark malts, but once I tried the late additions I've brewed possibly hundreds of dark beers with good success.


I cold steep overnight, lid or glad wrap over stainless pot, in fridge, enough water to cover.
Bring to mash temp, add to mash for mashout (raise to 78, leave 10 mins)


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## seamad (19/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> I always throw my dark malts in at the last 10mins of the mash. Smooth n yummy also.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I cold steep overnight, 1:4 grain/water in a stockpot, usually just on the bench unless it's stinking hot. Strain through cheesecloth and add at last 15 minutes boil.


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## MHB (19/9/15)

how do you find cold steeping affects your extraction?
I know with Xal malts it wont make a huge difference but I would think for amber or brown particularly the Cold Water Extract (CWE) would be pretty small compared to what you would get if you mashed them. or do you just up the base malt to compensate foe the reduced yield.
M


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## seamad (19/9/15)

I don't cold steep brown, but I use the lighter variety of it.
I cold steep from pale choc up


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## MHB (19/9/15)

Yes I get that, I am familiar with the process but say you made a Fullers London Porter (a cracking good beer) the extract obtained from brown and chocolate malt comes to just shy of 12%, not the sort of quantity you can just ignore with out it having a pretty big effect on the finished beer.
Mark
Numbers from the recipe in BYO 250 recipe book, adapted a bit for what you can get here.


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## seamad (19/9/15)

With that recipe , with such a small amount of choc (0.9%) I'd just throw that in during the recirculation whilst ( batch) sparging. My most recent porter had 10 % brown and 3% carabohemian in the mash, with 5% pale choc and 5% simpsons dark xtal cold steeped. My other regular dark beer, a black IPA has 3.3% each carafa II, caraaroma, and pale choc cold steeped, with base, rye and dark wheat mashed.Always aim for 100ppm Ca in the mash and add some acid to sparge, regularly use my pH meter to make sure mash pH is OK. I like the smoothness the cold steeping gives, plus the added benefit of making pH control a bit simpler.
I also like cold drip coffee, but I roast my own beans, and a lightly roasted ethiopean or yemen I find pretty good in summer.


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## MHB (19/9/15)

Ok I get that, but the question (and the thread) is about Brown Malt!
Do people cold steep or late add to the mash Brown Malt to avoid the reported harshness (not something I have found to be a problem) but I am actually curious. If so is there a significant fall off in yield that has to be accounted for?

Talking about Black/Roast and cold extraction is a little OT (interesting but). When I have made/tasted beers with late mash or cold extracted dark grain personally I find they lack a little something, but that's personal taste it might suit some to make their beer that way, but not what I would do

I worked out years ago that I have perfect taste - well my taste suits me perfectly, One of the many reasons I home brew is so I can make the beer I like.
And yes I love good coffee, one of the local roasters does a ripping single origan Ethiopian, their roster is a fluidised air bed and it a bit like watching a lava lamp (mildly hypnotic) they are making some of the best roasts I have found (they are using Sprocket Coffee at Foghorn - Shaun Sherlock's new venture)

Thinking about it I like some teeth and claws in my coffee, and my dark beers, perhaps that is why cold extraction isn't doing it for me in either case.
Mark


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## Coalminer (20/9/15)

MHB said:


> Mash it for sure!
> most of the colour/flavour is in the husks unlike black/roast malt where its in the corn (see Carafa special - no husk lots of colour and flavour) so I think that steeping to extract the flavours you want will inevitably give the problematic ones too, so just steeping doesn't fix the problem, but you do give up all the potential extract you payed for to no benefit.
> I think I would be hard pressed to design anything English and dark without one or both of them appearing
> 
> ...


Mark
Care to elaborate sometime about the use of buffered Calcium Lactate with regard to Newcastle water
ie when to or not to use it and general quantities
I don't normally use it in my dark ales but always in pale ales
In Newcastle this is the only water additions I use with tap water


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## mje1980 (20/9/15)

Well ok, it's not so harsh this time. Perhaps I have the lighter version?. I'd normally need a few weeks at least, and the samples were harsh. I'll leave it a week or two but really it's pretty good right now. 



Will be using more from now on


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## MHB (20/9/15)

Coalminer said:


> Mark
> Care to elaborate sometime about the use of buffered Calcium Lactate with regard to Newcastle water
> ie when to or not to use it and general quantities
> I don't normally use it in my dark ales but always in pale ales
> In Newcastle this is the only water additions I use with tap water


Just CaLac/Lactic Acid, clearly it forms a very powerful Lactic/Lactate buffer complex.
These days I mostly mash in at 200C add all my water chemicals, then adjust the pH to target with Lactic acid. When I first started mucking about with CaLac I got Keith Grice (who was doing a PhD in chemistry at the time) to have a look at the Ksp calculations, he came up with about 150M CaLac/1MLac Acid to buffer at 5.2pH.
Living here you will know how lovely Hunter water is for brewing, you can get away without mucking about with it too much, so I just tweak the Sulphate if the style call for it and bump the Ca up to 150-200pmm with CaLac - works for me, Mild I did a couple off weeks ago came in at 92% brewhouse efficiency and after filtering came out crystal clear with a nice simple bitterness that doesn't linger, will tick all the boxes if I can get rid of that other 0.5% alcohol and keep all the body.
That also indicates that all the process that are affected by water chemistry are fairly well optimised, so its working for me.
Mark


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## Coalminer (21/9/15)

OK thanks Mark


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## MHB (21/9/15)

Sorry just to prevent any confusion, 5.2 being the end of boil target pH, the calculation (150:1) was to hit 5.5pH, been a while since we did the numbers. In practice you will probably need a bit more acid as the malt has a pretty impressive buffering capacity.
These days I adjust pH a couple of times during a brew (again style dependant) and will for some beers add extra Ca near flame out.
Mark


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## pat86 (23/9/15)

mje1980 said:


> Well ok, it's not so harsh this time. Perhaps I have the lighter version?. I'd normally need a few weeks at least, and the samples were harsh. I'll leave it a week or two but really it's pretty good right now.
> 
> 
> 
> Will be using more from now on


Hey Mje can you list which maltster you used? 

I have used brown a couple of times in porters thanks to Nick from Barleyman. I believe this was Baird's brown malt and around 20-25% of the grist. I loved it. 

A friend made a light coloured Porter with most of the flavour / colour from brown (one of the lighter brown malts - I don't remember which) and it was excellent. There is a real nice flavour that is very different to using smaller amounts of more roasted malts for sure.


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## TimT (23/9/15)

This is an interesting one for me. I've lately noticed similar issues with my dark beers - a very harsh taste in the final brew. After discussing the issue thoroughly with the Higher Minds (tm) on this site I found it probably came down to the acidity of the brew. Firstly, the brew will acidify during the mash and the boil - then it will acidify further during fermentation. (Oh - and I tend not to brew with hops these days, and hops can be a very effective masking ingredient when it comes to harsh flavours). So. This can be dealt with most obviously by tinkering with the water chemistry - brewing salts, perhaps. 

Anyway, I've been experimenting with a different solution - Mark's going to think this is insane - adding egg white during the last part of the mash. 

The idea is this: egg white is a traditional brewing ingredient, used to clarify wines. (Interestingly, it seems there was an old tradition of brewing English wheat beers with grouts/biscuits made out of egg white and flour. Perhaps there are similar traditions in other parts of the world.) Egg white has interesting properties; it's alkaline (though grows more acidic as it gets older), and it will tend to remove bitterness from whatever it's added to. So my idea is to add egg whites during the last part of the mash, let it leech up some of the bitterness and hopefully push the pH up a little bit - and then scoop the egg white out and proceed with the boil. And perhaps it will contribute some proteins for the yeast. 

I did this a couple of weeks ago with an amber ale. The ale fermented efficiently and well and came out of the fermenter tasting rather bready with a gravity of around 1.002. Success for the egg white? Er, well, I dunno; I also used some 'super high gravity yeast' and maybe some of my other adjuncts altered the flavour of the brew too. However, I plan on doing some more brews using egg white soon!


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## antiphile (23/9/15)

Hi Tim.

The Dutch make Advocaat with egg yolk. Maybe the Aussie beer version with egg white could be called Beervocaat?


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## TimT (23/9/15)

Egg yolk is a different thing altogether (though still a great ingredient). Great in butter beer!


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## MHB (23/9/15)

> Anyway, I've been experimenting with a different solution - Mark's going to think this is insane - adding egg white during the last part of the mash.


No Mark thinks you're insane  subtly different.
I've given up even trying to understand what you are even trying to achieve, but in this case, I cant see any point in adding egg white to the mash.
It will just coagulate (cook) and wont even get into the kettle, let alone the beer. I suppose it is theoretically possible that it is trapping some polyphenols, tho I have my doubts.

As to the virtues of making a white ale by adding flour to the kettle - that is well enough understood, the notion of using flour made from "slack malt" is interesting and could have some up-sides, would need to do some experimenting .

Mind you, the recipes (well as close as they get) are going to make a very lactic beer - pushing your pH way the hell down and everything you are saying about pH of your beer is the exact opposite of what the brews referenced will make..... surprise surprise. The egg additions appear to be to the ferment, again the opposite of what your doing.

M


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## TimT (23/9/15)

I'm not sure exactly what egg white does when it goes into hot water/hot wort - so I'm definitely still at the early experimental stages with this one. My hope is that it will either draw some of the acid away from the wort or dilute the acidity somewhat. 

Though in regards to the English white ale styles, why do you think it would be lactic/sour? Because the fermentation is supposedly kicked off by the egg white/biscuit? My interpretation of those recipes was that fermentation would begin by a wild yeast on the flour - I'm not sure if egg whites have bacteria in them at all?! It would seem to be in the interests of chickens to keep their eggs free from contamination.


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## black_labb (23/9/15)

I've found a touch of astringency with brown or amber malt when using them in bitters which smoothes out over a bit of time, though with the right amount it gives them a nice dry finish.

I find that in beers with a fair bit of crystals, especially dark crystals work really well with brown or amber malts and they are drinkable immediately. Add some extra darker crystal malt would be my recommendation


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## MHB (23/9/15)

Well Tim, apart from the specific and direct comparison to Lambic in the article...
There are several other processes mentioned where the presence of Lacto becomes inevitable, as well as more than one reference/suggestion that the beer doesn't store, considering the time and state of the brewing art at the time, we are and can only be looking at a lacto beer.

If you knew anything about brewing you would be aware that any unpasteurised flour will have a lot of lacto, in fact grain dust is a major source of infection in brewing - not a fecking source of yeast!

I really find brewing history interesting, I actually study it as a part of brewing. You should really learn a bit about brewing, and when you read interesting historical snippets, try to read what they say! understand what they were doing and how it affects your beer - rather than pull one part out of the process and in many cases totally reverse its intent or effect.
From my reading of your many posts, Ah FFS I give up - a little less time making up wild baseless assertions and a bit more time learning to brew


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## manticle (23/9/15)

Why on earth would you assume eggs are free from bacteria?


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## TimT (24/9/15)

I know when the chook lays them they come with a cuticle, a wet layer that quickly dries and forms a protective layer on the outer shell that protects them from bacteria. In general it seems in the interests of the chook to have a foetus that doesn't have to compete with microorganisms. I'm sure some gets in but it seems to me that it must have some bacteria-retardant properties - wouldn't be the only natural product that's like that. I was surprised to learn recently that it wasn't until milk was expressed from the udder that it actually picked up bacteria!


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## MHB (24/9/15)

Unless the cow has listeriosis, typhoid fever, tuberculosis, diphtheria, and brucellosis...
All transmittable by "fresh" milk which is why we pasteurise it.
Mark


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## manticle (24/9/15)

TimT said:


> I know when the chook lays them they come with a cuticle, a wet layer that quickly dries and forms a protective layer on the outer shell that protects them from bacteria. In general it seems in the interests of the chook to have a foetus that doesn't have to compete with microorganisms. I'm sure some gets in but it seems to me that it must have some bacteria-retardant properties - wouldn't be the only natural product that's like that. I was surprised to learn recently that it wasn't until milk was expressed from the udder that it actually picked up bacteria!


Very wild speculation of a nature upon which I would not hang my hat.

http://www.safeeggs.com/eggs/salmonella-eggs

Obviously this bacteria will not survive the boil but I wouldn't make assumptions based on a chicken's innate motherly love.


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## mje1980 (24/9/15)

pat86 said:


> Hey Mje can you list which maltster you used?
> I have used brown a couple of times in porters thanks to Nick from Barleyman. I believe this was Baird's brown malt and around 20-25% of the grist. I loved it.
> A friend made a light coloured Porter with most of the flavour / colour from brown (one of the lighter brown malts - I don't remember which) and it was excellent. There is a real nice flavour that is very different to using smaller amounts of more roasted malts for sure.


Don't know mate but I got it from craft brewer.


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## Markbeer (4/11/15)

I used the Gladfield brown malt at 8% of the grain bill. Not harsh or roasty at all. Will go 15% next time.

I used 3% melanoidin and it overpowers the brown malt it.


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## hwall95 (4/11/15)

I've recently done a Porter with 24% brown malt which has turned out really well. Real strong coffeeish-dry choc flavour going on. Thinking about trying some in my milds as being a strong malt I may be able to further decrease the grain bill and keep the flavour


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## mje1980 (4/11/15)

Markbeer said:


> I used the Gladfield brown malt at 8% of the grain bill. Not harsh or roasty at all. Will go 15% next time.
> I used 3% melanoidin and it overpowers the brown malt it.



You post this while there's a bulk buy going on?


Bastard


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## Markbeer (4/11/15)

I honestly think a kilo in 20l would be a good amount. Maybe more.

I can give you some Mark if you like.




mje1980 said:


> You post this while there's a bulk buy going on?
> 
> 
> Bastard


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## paulyman (4/11/15)

Markbeer said:


> I honestly think a kilo in 20l would be a good amount. Maybe more.
> 
> I can give you some Mark if you like.


Too late he's already ordered a whole sack!


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## mje1980 (4/11/15)

Yeah, can't let a bulk buy go without getting something!. If I start giving it away you'll know I'm not keen on it lol

Plenty more mild,brown and porter coming up


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