# Experimental Hefeweizen Three Way!



## Mr. No-Tip (20/12/14)

I suppose all three ways involve cloudy protein laden liquids, but half of them also involve yeasts, and this is one of them.

*TL;DR version: *Brewing my hefeweizen off a single mash and boil but splitting it onto three yeasts: WLP300, WB-06 and Danstar Munich. Let's see how they effect the end product.

*Long version: *I brew a pretty mean Hefeweizen. I've been lucky enough to take out the AABC number one wheat beer for the last two years - clearly on point for style guidelines - but I am interested to know why - what makes a hefeweizen true to style?

Some vital statistics about how I brew my hef:

49% Wheat, 44% pils, 4% Carapils, 3% Munich 1.
Tettnanger, Saaz, or Hallertauer to ~12 IBU.
Mash in at 38, [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
Pitch WLP300. Never use a starter, often use a just in date vial. Underpitch to get the esters pumping.
I oxygenate, but I don't feel this is a big factor in the end product. Maybe it would be even better without oxy..
Pitch at 13 degrees, 'buffer' the temp controller and let it rise to 18.5 over a few days. Often add some heat to get it going up form 14 when I feel like it's going nowhere and freak out. End game here is more stress, but to a banana/clov balanced outcome - I reckon a good hef should have the two in balance to the point that you struggle to pick either independently.
I generally bottle condition, as I believe the refermentation adds a certain something something. This experiment will be both kegged and bottled.
I really feel the goodness of the recipe is a triangulation of:

the step mash
the step fermentation
the WLP300.

I've recently been thinking that those three things are hard to achieve for everyone. A lot of homebrewers can't step mash. From what I understand a lot of pro breweries don't have step mashing either, no active heating on fermenters, and liquid yeasts can be cost prohibitive at those scales. I also wonder if this could be a factor in the lack of really remarkable Australian Hefs. I am interested to see if we can brew a hef just as good taking any one of these elements out and in doing so determine which are essential.

So, let's start with the yeast. Today I brewed a double batch and pitched ~17l into three fermenters. One will receive WLP300, one Danstar Munich, and one Fermentis WB-06. They will all be treated the same from here.

I normally brew my hef for comp in late winter, so today's weather has already introduced some changes to the standard:


I really struggled to get to 13. In fact, I had my plate chiller in ice water (a new thing I tried to do today that seemed to do both jack and shit) but I could not get it below 21. The batches sat unpitched in the fridge for a couple hours. I've done this before, but not with this beer.
The ambient temperatures. The natural ramp seems to be happening a little faster than I'd like. I am going to not buffer as willingly as I do in winter.
The fermenter geometry is slightly different. I have the WB06 and the WLP300 in identical fermenters, but the Munich is in a slightly shorter, fatter one. Ces la vis.
At least these changes happened to all three batches. 

So I expect visible fermentation to start on the WLP300 in a day or so, and probably the dry ones too, though I've never used them before. I will post back here if they differ during ferment or if there's anything else to say.

The bottled product I intend to hand out to a few folks around town for a blind tasting.

Let's see what we can taste...Anyone else tried something like this before?


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## Mardoo (20/12/14)

Very interested. Subscribed.


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## Flash_DG (20/12/14)

Love a good hefe but I don't have the gear to step mash yet so interested in your experiment


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## neal32 (21/12/14)

In. Experiments are what makes my beer better.

My hefe is pretty similar. 50 pils/ 50 wheat, always Weyermann malts, similar steps, 3068 underpitched cool and brought up to 18. I like your use of munich, I was going to start doing a single decoction to get more malty flavours, the only way the Weihenstephaner was better than mine and I guess the munich is a cheats ways of getting it.

Mine was preferred by all tasters in a blind three way test, the Burleigh Hefe tasted really, really bad in comparison (At the time I was hoping like hell it wasn't my beer!!)

Have you experimented with the difference a decoction or melanoidin malt makes?

P.S I think it will be hard to replace WLP300/3068 for a hefe.


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## dammag (21/12/14)

I have been researching Hef brewing lately and have come across a few things:

https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/wheat-yeast-comparison-results-part-2-tasting/

This experiment looks similar to yours. It will be interesting to see how your results compare to this.

There was also another site: http://www.bjcp.org/cep/WyeastYeastLife.pdf that has a sensory experiment where 6ppm O2 was preferred over higher oxygenation rates in a beer brewed with Wyeast 3068.

Mr. No-Tip. What system do you brew on to get the step mash profile?


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## droid (21/12/14)

awesomeness subscribed


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## Blind Dog (21/12/14)

I'm in

Drinking a hef right now brewed with WB06 and for my tastes its a much better beer than the Weihenstephaner hefe I had last night (in date but IMO it really suffered on the voyage over).


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## madpierre06 (21/12/14)

Had discussions on this lately as want to do a hefe and going to be stuck on stovetop BIAB for next 2 years so looking for options to get best results I can. Following with great interest.


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## Mr. No-Tip (21/12/14)

dammag said:


> I have been researching Hef brewing lately and have come across a few things:
> 
> https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/wheat-yeast-comparison-results-part-2-tasting/
> 
> ...


That experiement is way more involved than mine! Mine will be a blind tasting and comments back. I am trying not to read theirs too much, to avoid precluding mine!

I brew on a Braumeister for what it's worth...



neal32 said:


> Have you experimented with the difference a decoction or melanoidin malt makes?


I have not. Paul Haesler, who gave me the stepped ferment technique swears by it for his hefs - the ANHC dinner hef was an example.


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## Mr. No-Tip (21/12/14)

So 24 hour report:

The weather definitely changed the experiment a bit. The beers were up to 15+ degrees within a few hours. In retrospect I needed to be more disciplined keeping them at 13 for 12 hours or so. I suspect that the core of the fermenters never got down to 13 - yesterday was kinda hectic. Not quite on par with how I've brewed my hefs in winter in the past, but at least they are all moving consistently.

They are all sitting at about 15.9 degrees now. I will keep them there till at least later tonight.

The WB06 was the first to rise. 1cm krausen at 22 hours.
At 24 hours the WB06 had a 2cm Krausen and the WP300 has a steamy lid and some airlock action without kruasen.
The Danstar has no condensation on the lid or krausen. Some bubbles, but I suspect that's oxygenation on the surface rather than krausen.

So far, the Danstar performance cements a lack of faith I have in them after getting burnt by the great BRY97 72 hour lag earlier this year.


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## dammag (21/12/14)

I brewed my Hef yesterday.

48.9% Wheat
48.9% Pilsner
1.2% Melanoidin.

18L into fermenter.

Single infusion at 68C for 90 minutes (BIAB on the stovetop) 1047 OG

Chilled to 24C in the bathtub (should have bought another bag of ice, it's summer in QLD)

Pitched a smack pack of Wyeast 3068 dated Dec 14.

Good krausen 12 hours later.

Fermenting at 20C in a temp controlled fridge. (I've tried 17C before)

Will see how I go.


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## durgarth (21/12/14)

Great experiment, and I demand (hope) to be part of the judging panel. Albeit that my taste in heffe is in my arse...still the best


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## Dan Pratt (22/12/14)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> The weather definitely changed the experiment a bit. The beers were up to 15+ degrees within a few hours. In retrospect I needed to be more disciplined keeping them at 13 for 12 hours or so.


Hi No Tip,

I'm onto my 4th Hefe since taking a liking to the style. I like your recipe/mash and overall guideline for the beer and will be keen to replicate it to see how far from #1 my skills are...lol. (congrats on the back to back wins too!)

I think I read somewhere else that you mentioned the pitch @ 13c and let it raise to 19c for ferment, however I wasn't aware that it was a 12hr rest @ 13 then let it raise up?? See on my current Hefe I pitched a healthy starter of WLP300 @ 13c and within 6-8hrs it was up @ 19c. ( with my setup I can control that temp rise )

Can you elaborate your method for pitch & ferment?

And also - a question about the Carapils? What do you find that does to the beer, its for head retention and body but the wheat at 50% already takes care of both those things....Im thinking because of the mash @ 63c for 60mins the beer's FG is much lower.

Final Q - SG and FG?


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## Tahoose (22/12/14)

Sounds like a pretty simple (read good) experiment. 

Are these Yeasts all from the same strain or are they supposed to be a bit different?


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## Mr. No-Tip (22/12/14)

Pratty1 said:


> Can you elaborate your method for pitch & ferment?


I am not surprised it would jump to 19 so quickly at this time of year. I've only really practiced this method in cooler months where the yeast is the only thing adding heat. I am pretty sure every time I've added heat to get it to 15.5 at least, mainly because I am freaking out it's never going to start after 48 hours or so. It always starts, of course.

In this weather you have the ambient temp wanting it at 19 degrees as well. If you don't leave it at step points and actually kick the fridge in, it's going to rise pretty quickly, and I daresay it's mostly a function of the weather.

My method of raising hasn't been totally consistent, but I am basically raising the temp by about .5-.8 of a degree every ~12 hours for a few days till I hit 18.5 or so. With work and life in the way, it's never 12 hours exactly.




Pratty1 said:


> And also - a question about the Carapils? What do you find that does to the beer, its for head retention and body but the wheat at 50% already takes care of both those things....Im thinking because of the mash @ 63c for 60mins the beer's FG is much lower.
> 
> Final Q - SG and FG?


On carapils, I can't really justify it in any tangible way, the recipe was a morph of a few things I was doing and has changed over time. Once it started doing well I thought it best not to change it.

My OG is usualy a point or two either side of 1.050, usually aiming for 1.048. FG tends to consistently be 1.011 or 1.010 despite the low mash.


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## Topher (22/12/14)

Great thread, keep it up! 

FWIW I just split a hefe into two batches for gits and shiggles. Hersbrucker at 60min to 18ibu. 

One standard hefe with wb06 (15c, 18c, then 21c) one with us05 at 18c and a decent belt of cascade and citra in the cube. 

The hefe is lovely, the Americano version is just kegged, and tastes nice too, a nice summer fruity ale. Not as crisp as the wb06 however, and I thought the us05 would drop cleaner after crashing......if anything it is actually cloudier than the wb06!


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## brewermp (22/12/14)

Have any of you successfully made a heffe with a dry yeast? Just starting out and haven't got the gear to make a yeast starter yet.

Edit: didnt see the post above lol.


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## Mr. No-Tip (22/12/14)

At 48 hours, all are well and truly going. The dry yeast krausens are still a few centimeters while the WLP300 is at about 10cm. All fermentations are now at 17.5. They will be up to 18.5 by 72 hours. Probably about 12 hours faster than I'd have liked, but such is life.

I think I've accidentally reduced another variable into the experiment - the fermentation chamber. The Danstar is in a chest freezer but the other two are in a fridge. I think the chesty is staying cool for longer as I often see the heater applied in that chamber and not so in the fridge. Probably equates to a slower ramp in the scheme of things and may explain its longer lag.


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## Mr. No-Tip (23/12/14)

Crazy banana-come-bubblegum in the WB06/WLP300 chamber this morning. Never smelt the bubblegum in the WLP300 ferments before.


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## madpierre06 (23/12/14)

I gather you've got the gear to control your mash steps....if I was doing this on stovetop would attempting to do a rough steopped mash according to your process have a significant affect on the end product i.e. I turn the stove on ad off to boost temps as you have there.


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## Tahoose (23/12/14)

He's on a braumeister..


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## Mr. No-Tip (23/12/14)

madpierre06 said:


> I gather you've got the gear to control your mash steps....if I was doing this on stovetop would attempting to do a rough steopped mash according to your process have a significant affect on the end product i.e. I turn the stove on ad off to boost temps as you have there.


The steps also do different things enzymatically. The lower ferulic acid rest gives us the precursors for those clove flavours, for instance. So yes it would have a significant effect. Can you do it on stovetop? I'm not sure. I reckon a decoction (take some off, bring it to the boil, and use that to raise the mash temp as it is returned to the main batch) approach would be a better option in your case, but I haven't tried it myself.


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## madpierre06 (23/12/14)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> The steps also do different things enzymatically. The lower ferulic acid rest gives us the precursors for those clove flavours, for instance. So yes it would have a significant effect. Can you do it on stovetop? I'm not sure. I reckon a decoction (take some off, bring it to the boil, and use that to raise the mash temp as it is returned to the main batch) approach would be a better option in your case, but I haven't tried it myself.


Thanks for that info mate, much good food for thought. I'll give it a go I think, there's little harm as I see it and much to be gained.


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## Mr. No-Tip (29/12/14)

I kegged and bottled the hefeweizens today.

All three finished at 1.011/1.012 and were pretty visually similar.





I won't give away too much of my first impressions from the hydro samples here as I am hoping to get about 15 blind tests from folks who may read here, but some general interesting things:


WLP300 had the largest krausen by at least a factor of 2. The Danstar Munich had a very small krausen.
Danstar was the only one that had anything resembling a solid cake. I was bottling in warm weather and the WB06 and WLP300 cakes were very loose in the remaining wort post kegging.
WB-06 frothed like a rabid bear during bottling. For some reason I decided to bottle these guys warm. I think I've done this with my Hefs once or twice before, but not in summer. I get why there was frothing, and all three batches did abit, but the WB-06 was about 1/3 froth when it hit the rim. I can't think why that one was different.
One thing that occurred to me in tasting these samples is that a lot of people ferment their Hefs at a single temp in the low 20s. Given my beer never hits that, I'd be really interested if another brewer did this experiment with a straight 20/22 degree ferment. What we may see is that it's not just down to one yeast being better than another, but that they have their own ideal spots? I'd hate to indict the dry yeasts off one experiments if that's what happens here (as many have assumed it will)

I hope to post back in about 2-3 weeks with a writeup of all the blind tastings.


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## Mr. No-Tip (23/1/15)

The results are in. I've wrangled the last of the stragglers to provide their feedback. I engaged around 20 people to contribute. Most were Canberra Brewers and members of my BJCP 'study group'. There are a few BJCP trained folk, a few guys who I know have judged Hefe's at nats or ACTAABC before, a Plonk employee, an ex Wig and Pen assistant brewer, and few complete novices and non beer nerds. A pretty good mix.

*TL;DR version, the liquid yeast was the winner for almost everyone, with 3 out of 15 people deviating and rating it worst. *

Beer 1 - Danstar Munich average score: 33.5
Beer 2 - WLP300 average score: 38.5
Beer 3 - WB-06 average score: 34.5

I wasn't surprised to see some deviation, but I was shocked to see three people give the liquid yeast high 20s when everyone else gave it high 30s/low 40s. My gut feeling is that it's down to a a bottling issue or a bottling mixup. I don't think it's down to opinion differences because two of the three 'low raters' have previously sent a very similar WLP300 beer to the nats.

If I were to chalk it down to a mixup, an adjusted average would be the same split, but a bit wider:

Beer 1 - Danstar Munich adjusted average score: 33
Beer 2 - WLP300 adjusted average score: 41
Beer 3 - WB-06 adjusted average score: 35


*Everyone's judging results are up here: View attachment Results.htm
*

My general observations on this experiment:

WLP300 or equivalent liquid yeasts seem to be necessary, or at least very helpful in creating a great hefeweizen.
WB-06 does a pretty bang up job for a dry yeast.
Danstar Munich was the least 'heffy' for most people. My takeaway from this is that the Danstar is not appropriate for Hefewiezens. That said, I do use a pretty niche fermentation schedule and don't even hit 20 degrees, where most people feel that hef character arrives best. I wonder if anyone else wants to try a similar expression in a low 20s ferment and see if the results differ?
Danstar Munich was the least varacious at most flocculant as well. It clumped and dropped first and took the longest to carbonate.
People's perception of flavours like 'banana' and 'clove' vary quite a bit...

...and that brings me to my last thought...This experiment has really changed my thoughts on judging.

We always talk about thresholds for bad flavours - "I am sensitive to acetaldehyde" - "I can't pick diacetyl" etc, but it seems to me most people don't think of thresholds on positive flavours. I've never heard someone say "I struggle to pick a hefe banana character as much as others, so I must adjust my criticism/praise". I've certainly seen judges back down when the other two at the table get a nose full of butterscotch and they acknowledge they don't normally get it.

For Hefs, I have been with judges who struggle to find the clove, but I don't know if that translated to judging with them acknowledging a weakness to the aroma - they just said they couldn't get much clove and seemingly pinged the beer for it. Personally, I found zero hef character in the danstar beer and thought it closer to an American Wheat. The WLP300 beer seemed to have a subdued, but balanced character to me. Others found it full of banana. I'll definitely keep this in mind for my future judging.

I think I might continue to do experiments like this from time to time. I am doing a Belgian Golden Strong in March. I might try to do a semi-controlled look at the effect of adding simple sugar additions at the start vs during fermentation. Stay tuned.


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## BroMozzie (23/1/15)

Did you say which bottle (1,2,3) corresponded to which yeast?

I am 99.5% sure that my "bottle #1" was WLP-300 - I've done this experiment myself in the past and I know WLP-300 as well as I know any yeast strain. (I got a 3rd place Nats medal for my hefe a few years back and I believe you use my recipe, Kev  ) I wouldn't rule out muddling the bottles my end at tasting time (I was in a bit of hurry).


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## Mr. No-Tip (23/1/15)

I've just re-edited the post. You either got a mixed up batch or mad bad palate


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## BroMozzie (23/1/15)

My wife (who knows her wheat beers if not much else) and my daughter (who has a scary good palate for a 12 year old) agreed with me, so one of us must have mixed up the numbers. :blink:


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## Mr. No-Tip (23/1/15)

BroMozzie said:


> and I believe you use my recipe, Kev  )


Almost. No late hops in mine, a bit more munich, to IIRC. Slightly different ramp temps, but I def credit you for the baseline


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