# Using Cling Wrap Instead Of An Airlock



## michael_aussie

I remember reading somewhere that some people don't use the lid of their brewing container. They remove the lid and put cling wrap (glad wrap) over the container and hold it in place with the seal from under the lid.
Has anyone done this?
Any tips or suggestions?


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## michaelcocks

michael_aussie said:


> I remember reading somewhere that some people don't use the lid of their brewing container. They remove the lid and put cling wrap (glad wrap) over the container and hold it in place with the seal from under the lid.
> Has anyone done this?
> Any tips or suggestions?



Do it all the time - Have done for years ... no more cleaning fiddling things
brilliant just use rubber band you wont go back
Also makes the whole fermenter a bit smaller (for fitting in fridge etc)


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## Siborg

I only use cling wrap these days. I have some commercial grade stuff that is a little thicker than your average wrap, which is better.

My only problems with them is doming as the brew ferments (pricking it with a sewing needle helps avoid this) and gushing krausen due to a lack of headspace. Its also good to be able to see whats going on in a brew. Give it a try.


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## rendo

CLING WRAP.....CLING WRAP......CLING WRAP......!!!

Do it....its great. Once you wrap you wont go back!!

Rendo


​


michael_aussie said:


> I remember reading somewhere that some people don't use the lid of their brewing container. They remove the lid and put cling wrap (glad wrap) over the container and hold it in place with the seal from under the lid.
> Has anyone done this?
> Any tips or suggestions?


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## redunderthebed

Cling wrap is where its at.


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## Hatchy

There's pros & cons for either. I made the mistake of not sanitising a lid a couple of times because I was planning on using cling wrap, I regretted it when I wanted to give my fermenter a good shake for aeration prior to pitching. The cling wrap is a great way to be able to see what's happening in yr fermenter if you feel the need. I've got 2 fermenters in the bath which is right next to our bedroom. SWMBO & I have both slept better since I cling wrapped those. The 60L in the ferment fridge has a lid & airlock because of the condensation dropping from what used to be a freezer but is now an acceptable beer fridge. I'd say try both & either use whichever you prefer or use both depending on circumstances. I wouldn't say that either option is better than the other.

Edit: The current score in this thread looks like it's 4.5 cling wrap & 0.5 lid & airlock so it's probably worth giving it a shot.


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## felten

I just switched to using glad wrap mid-brew because I was getting sick of not being able to get an air tight seal, and if I did it up too tight I would have to get someone to give me a hand opening it :|

Bulging isn't a problem since the co2 will leak out around the seal, its not completely air tight under pressure. And being able to see whats going on inside is a big plus when you're using an opaque fermenter. The lid is still handy for aerating though as Hatchy said.


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## Wolfy

michael_aussie said:


> Has anyone done this?
> Any tips or suggestions?


Yes quite a number of people here do.
Yes, use the search function and you'll find several threads with details/pictures and commentary about the pro's and con's of both methods.


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## RdeVjun

Link to pic, more details below that post, also plenty of other threads discuss it, so searching is your friend for more details.


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## jiesu

Airlock
Pros : Easy, disposable, vision of brew, easier to move fermenter, Less to sanatise, takes up less space, cheap
Cons: disposable, more fragile, easier access for inquisitive children, 

Airlock
Pros: Blooooop Blooooop Bloooooop (meaning you get an audible gauge of fermentation)
Cons: Opposite of cling wrap pros.


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## unrealeous

Any issues with cling wrap and Light-strike? Does anyone take any extra precautions.


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## RdeVjun

unrealeous said:


> Any issues with cling wrap and Light-strike? Does anyone take any extra precautions.


No. How can light penetrate into the fermenting fridge? 

No extra precautions necessary, unless you are leaving your fermenter in the sun that is...


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## Hatchy

unrealeous said:


> Any issues with cling wrap and Light-strike? Does anyone take any extra precautions.



I asked the same thing in a similar thread recently. Wolfy pointed out that if it's not a problem with a lid then it won't be a problem with glad wrap.


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## Florian

Hi Michael,

some good pros and cons below this post.

I personally have never used a lid and airlock, I started on glad wrap from brew one. I am very sure I haven't missed anything.


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## MarkMc

unrealeous said:


> Any issues with cling wrap and Light-strike? Does anyone take any extra precautions.



Mine is in a dull garage, and in a large cool bag with frozen bottles and a big packing blanket wrapped around/over it. so no need for precautions here.

Edit: +1 for glad wrap.


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## Yob

felten said:


> I just switched to using glad wrap mid-brew because I was getting sick of not being able to get an air tight seal,




+1 to that, though I think I will just start with the next brew

Q: are the dangers of the lid not being a 'complete' seal severe? Im sure nothings crawling in there... just means the CO2 is getting out somewhere else yeah?


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## pb unleaded

I use plastic wrap with a pin hole and put an airlock in it


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## michael_aussie

felten said:


> I just switched to using glad wrap mid-brew because I was getting sick of not being able to get an air tight seal, and if I did it up too tight I would have to get someone to give me a hand opening it :|
> 
> Bulging isn't a problem since the co2 will leak out around the seal, its not completely air tight under pressure. And being able to see whats going on inside is a big plus when you're using an opaque fermenter. The lid is still handy for aerating though as Hatchy said.



Hi guys (I think you're all guys??), 
thank you very much for your input. 
Lots of great pointers here.

It's great to have immediate access to other avid brewers. 

Yes, I should have searched, sorry about that. bloody newbies.

I too have had problems getting an air seal, or when I do, removing the lid.
I'm looking forward to the better view.
If I "use" the extra head room to fill the "primary fridge" I won't be able to see in..... hmmmm.

I will miss the reassuring plop-plop. Not sure how I'll cope with this.



felten said:


> The lid is still handy for aerating though as Hatchy said.


aerating?? ... 
What am I missing here?
I thought air was my emeny.
I have been careful when bottling to ensure I don't get aeration.

As Pauline Hanson would say ... please explain.


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## manticle

Prior to commencing fermentation and in the very early stages, yeast work aerobically. As fermentation gears up they enter an anerobic phase. During the early stage, as long as the brew is cool, it benefits from oxygen. Once you see any krausen developing you want to avoid this. This includes finished beer.


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## felten

iamozziyob said:


> +1 to that, though I think I will just start with the next brew
> 
> Q: are the dangers of the lid not being a 'complete' seal severe? Im sure nothings crawling in there... just means the CO2 is getting out somewhere else yeah?



Right there's no dangers, it's just a personal thing. If the lid isn't fitting tight enough to force the co2 out of the airlock then its completely pointless even having it there.. at least that was my thinking.





michael_aussie said:


> aerating?? ...
> What am I missing here?
> I thought air was my emeny.
> I have been careful when bottling to ensure I don't get aeration.
> 
> As Pauline Hanson would say ... please explain.



There is a difference between aeration and oxidisation, when most brewers talk about aeration they mean adding enough dissolved oxygen (theres a variety of means, have a search) into the cooled wort just before pitching (at pitching temps), as yeast need some oxygen to reproduce properly. Oxidisation while the wort is hot (during the boil) or after fermentation is done (at bottling) is usually considered to be bad though.


edit: too fast for me manticle


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## michael_aussie

RdeVjun said:


> DON'T prick a hole in it, the gas finds a way out, the layer of film bulges up pretty handsomely, but no need to be concerned. Once fermentation tails off the film subsides, if there's a hole in it any condensation or drips will have an easy route into your beer- probably don't want any of that muck in your beer, hey?
> Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:


I think I will follow this advice too ------ no hole seems to be a safer bet.

I'm also not planning to sterilise the cling wrap.

Once again ty for all of your comments.


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## Hatchy

Sorry mate, I assumed prior knowledge. The only time you want aeration is right before you pitch the yeast. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that yeast will breed when they have oxygen but when they are starved of it they're happy to survive on sugar which they turn into alcohol & carbon dioxide which is why we love them so much. Have a look in the yeast chapter in how to brew. I'm sure Palmer explains it better than I do. If you don't have a paper copy, the entire book is available at howtobrew.com

Edit: I should've known when I answered my phone mid-post that someone would beat me to it.


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## Frank

I have never used Glad Wrap, and have no intention to. I find it funny to read that some have chosen to use it because they cant get a lid to seal 100%, but CO2 leaking under the seal of Glad Wrap is OK. ???
Even with a poor lid seal the air lock is still there just in case you have a peak in CO2 production that can't escape under the lid seal. 
I use a blow off tube with my fermenter with no lid rubber seal, CO2 can leak out where ever it likes but excessive production of CO2 and krausen can be expelled through the blow off tube.


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## michaelcocks

michael_aussie said:


> Hi guys (I think you're all guys??),
> thank you very much for your input.
> Lots of great pointers here.
> 
> It's great to have immediate access to other avid brewers.
> 
> Yes, I should have searched, sorry about that. bloody newbies.
> 
> I too have had problems getting an air seal, or when I do, removing the lid.
> I'm looking forward to the better view.
> If I "use" the extra head room to fill the "primary fridge" I won't be able to see in..... hmmmm.
> 
> I will miss the reassuring plop-plop. Not sure how I'll cope with this.
> 
> 
> aerating?? ...
> What am I missing here?
> I thought air was my emeny.
> I have been careful when bottling to ensure I don't get aeration.
> 
> As Pauline Hanson would say ... please explain.



Yeast need oxygen to get them going. After the initial burst or oxygen, you are correct, air (oxygen) is the enemy...
I use a (sanitized whisk) to aerate my wort just after adding the yeast.... 

Happy days....

Lots to learn

Mike


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## Hatchy

Bloody good point Boston. If a lid not sealing is an issue then cling wrap would have to be about the worst "solution" available.


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## Wolfy

michael_aussie said:


> aerating?? ...
> What am I missing here?
> 
> As Pauline Hanson would say ... please explain.


After boiling and before pitching yeast, its a very good idea to aerate the wort as much as you can - the yeast will then use the O2 as part of their growth and reproduction phase. So the more O2 you have in the wort the happier/better the yeast will be (everyone is happier with more sex right?)
One very good way to aerate the pre-fermented-wort this is to simply shake the crap out of it (i was reading someone who did an experiment and proved that this was actually the best method to get O2 into the wort), and if you have a lid on the fermenter it's easier to shake without making too much mess.

Any other time, when the wort is hot, or anytime after (about) the first 24 hours of fermentation you need to limit the amount of oxidation because that may cause off-flavours and other problems in your beer.


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## felten

Boston said:


> I have never used Glad Wrap, and have no intention to. I find it funny to read that some have chosen to use it because they cant get a lid to seal 100%, but CO2 leaking under the seal of Glad Wrap is OK. ???
> Even with a poor lid seal the air lock is still there just in case you have a peak in CO2 production that can't escape under the lid seal.
> I use a blow off tube with my fermenter with no lid rubber seal, CO2 can leak out where ever it likes but excessive production of CO2 and krausen can be expelled through the blow off tube.




I think you both completely misunderstood or misread what I said. Naturally the dust and germs are not going to be able climb vertically up inside your fermenter with a loose fitting lid, or with cling film; so if you cannot get a tight seal with your lid, tight enough to force the co2 out of the airlock (which is why its there) and not just around the edges of the lid, what is the point of lid + airlock? 

Glad wrap does not form a tight seal, co2 can escape; but it does prevent anything from entering. (except for small children/household pets)

That's my personal opinion on it anyway, maybe some lube on the o-ring would make opening/closing easier but I am now fine with using cling wrap.


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## manticle

I use both glad and lids at various points. Sometimes glad just seems like one less thing to sanitise or one less thing that can go wrong. Sometimes I have no glad or have a nice clean lid handy and feel like using it. Both have a place in my brewery depending on how I feel. No real problems with either so far except a beetle once found its way through 5 layers of glad wrap and sucked down on some dubbel.

Happy little beetle.


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## Hatchy

felten said:


> I think you both completely misunderstood or misread what I said. Naturally the dust and germs are not going to be able climb vertically up inside your fermenter with a loose fitting lid, or with cling film; so if you cannot get a tight seal with your lid, tight enough to force the co2 out of the airlock (which is why its there) and not just around the edges of the lid, what is the point of lid + airlock?
> 
> Glad wrap does not form a tight seal, co2 can escape; but it does prevent anything from entering. (except for small children/household pets)
> 
> That's my personal opinion on it anyway, maybe some lube on the o-ring would make opening/closing easier but I am now fine with using cling wrap.



I think what Boston was suggesting it that if yr happy to not have a seal then where is the problem with a lid that doesn't seal. The airlock won't bubble but it won't with glad wrap either.

Kids & pets are a good point. The cat didn't seem at all interested in my fermenters when they had airlocks. For some reason she stares at then constantly now they've got cling wrap on them.


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## theredone

quick question:
when cold crashing using clingwrap doesnt it suck the wrap into the brew? or does it no suck that much air back in as chilling?


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## RdeVjun

theredone said:


> quick question:
> when cold crashing using clingwrap doesnt it suck the wrap into the brew? or does it no suck that much air back in as chilling?


It can do, particularly in a fermenter with lots of headspace. No biggie for me, if it looks like bursting I'll just release some of the suction.


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## MarkBastard

Never happened with me and I crash chill all my brews.

When I'm transferring to the keg on the other hand the glad wrap starts sucking in, so I remove the rubber band and just let the glad wrap sit on top.


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## Acasta

Has anyone had trouble keeping oxygen out of their brew for an extended period of time using cling wrap? Say 3-4 weeks kind of thing including cold conditioning.


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## Rowy

I haven't.


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## Cocko

Na, me neither.


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## pk.sax

Fermenting outside at ambient - saison, glad wrap isn't the best idea for extended slow ferments. Never had a problem inside the fridge, it's all cold nothing much moves.


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## Amber Fluid

Acasta said:


> Has anyone had trouble keeping oxygen out of their brew for an extended period of time using cling wrap? Say 3-4 weeks kind of thing including cold conditioning.




Last Sunday I kegged 2 x 26L FVs (1 was glad wrapped) that had been sitting in the fridge at 4C for about 6-7 weeks. Didn't have any issues and in fact, it was a lot clearer than after the usual 2-3 weeks or so.


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## QldKev

I've done many extended brews using glad wrap, never had an issue. I've never tried it outside of a fermenting fridge.


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## Acasta

Thanks guys, after having a recent run in with acetaldehyde I was wondering if I was letting oxygen into the brew via gladwrap for extended periods.


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## mr_tyreman

Same here Acasta, i screwed the lid down uber hard....now its good as gold, no more acetaldehyde type problems.

Whats everyone's thoughts on cold crashing? should we dose with co2 to flush out any air that has been 'sucked' into the fermenter?

or just relax


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## michaelcocks

Do it....

You will NEVER look back !!!

New cling film every time they gunk up.
No suck back when crashing
Puffs up when your yeast is working so easy to tell its good..

Don't pierce it

Just small elastic band

Co2 will escape no problem


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## hoppy2B

I thought they had commercials on the tv years ago telling us that gases can pass through cling wrap but that flavours stay sealed in fresh. :mellow: Based on that information one would assume better hop aroma retention using cling wrap.


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## Acasta

mr_tyreman said:


> Same here Acasta, i screwed the lid down uber hard....now its good as gold, no more acetaldehyde type problems.
> 
> Whats everyone's thoughts on cold crashing? should we dose with co2 to flush out any air that has been 'sucked' into the fermenter?
> 
> or just relax



Do you cling wrap then lid, or just the lid all the way?

Thanks.


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## mr_tyreman

just using a lid for now


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## mr_tyreman

Here's a bit of food for thought for effectiveness of airlocks, lids and cling wrap

this was taken from VDK rest 21*C down to 1.5*C


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## Tangles

Tyreman you are a bloody guru. Any danger of you making a competition winning beer but???

That's just a fermenter that you've put too close to the smoker and melted!!


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## mr_tyreman

no comp beers coming from this lil brew house...hahaha Brett you bloody ripper!


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## jc64

Is that insulation tape over the airlock hole?


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## capsicum

Works fine on my glass carboy - but I can see into that anyway! Just saves a bit of headroom


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## mr_tyreman

yeah, bit of nitto electrical tape


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## wyane

The thread that won't die!! 

One of my FVs is a 25L camper barrel. Bunnings seem to have dumped that line for the 30L square one now which is too bad.

Cling-wrap the top with the rubber seal and prick a hole after about 12-24 hours.
For the next 3-5 days (for ales) the pressure inside is greater than the pressure outside, so no wild yeasts or coal dust will get in.
It's nice to lean the snoz over the hole, don't exhale and try not to inhale -- the waft of hop and malt aromas with the CO2 is lovely.
After the krausen dies back either dry-hop and renew the plastic, sans prick, or cello-tape the hole over until done.


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## bignath

wyane said:


> The thread that won't die!!
> 
> One of my FVs is a 25L camper barrel. Bunnings seem to have dumped that line for the 30L square one now which is too bad.
> 
> Cling-wrap the top with the rubber seal and prick a hole after about 12-24 hours.
> For the next 3-5 days (for ales) the pressure inside is greater than the pressure outside, so no wild yeasts or coal dust will get in.
> It's nice to lean the snoz over the hole, don't exhale and try not to inhale -- the waft of hop and malt aromas with the CO2 is lovely.
> After the krausen dies back either dry-hop and renew the plastic, sans prick, or cello-tape the hole over until done.



Im honestly not trying to be an asshole, but the reason why this thread "won't die" is because people still keep trying to reinvent a perfectly round wheel.

Either use a lid arrangement or gladwrap.

Just use a sheet of gladwrap over the fermenter, hold it in place with a rubber band, or the fermenter's rubber o ring lid seal, and walk away.
No need to prick holes in it, you can smell the aroma just fine by putting your nose next to your fermenter....well you can with my beers anyway  

It's not hard folks, you won't get rabies from not having an airlock, gas will still get out, oxygen is kept out by the co2 blanket blah blah blah...

end of rant.


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## Liam_snorkel

I still use lid + air lock because I have a penchant for kittens.


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## np1962

mr_tyreman said:


> Here's a bit of food for thought for effectiveness of airlocks, lids and cling wrap
> 
> this was taken from VDK rest 21*C down to 1.5*C


What happens when you crack the tap open?
I am thinking it will take an almighty gulp of air into your beer.


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## Yob

hoppy2B said:


> I thought they had commercials on the tv years ago telling us that gases can pass through cling wrap but that flavours stay sealed in fresh. :mellow: Based on that information one would assume better hop aroma retention using cling wrap.



one would assume that if it's out of solution you will not be retaining it with either lid or gladwrap.. its out of solution.. innit :blink: 

honestly...



NigeP62 said:


> What happens when you crack the tap open?
> I am thinking it will take an almighty gulp of air into your beer.



:lol:


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## JDW81

Liam_snorkel said:


> I still use lid + air lock because I have a penchant for kittens.



I ran out of kittens, so I had to resort to glad wrap.


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## QldKev

wyane said:


> The thread that won't die!!
> 
> One of my FVs is a 25L camper barrel. Bunnings seem to have dumped that line for the 30L square one now which is too bad.
> 
> Cling-wrap the top with the rubber seal and prick a hole after about 12-24 hours.
> For the next 3-5 days (for ales) the pressure inside is greater than the pressure outside, so no wild yeasts or coal dust will get in.
> It's nice to lean the snoz over the hole, don't exhale and try not to inhale -- the waft of hop and malt aromas with the CO2 is lovely.
> After the krausen dies back either dry-hop and renew the plastic, sans prick, or cello-tape the hole over until done.



I checked for qld anyway, all stores should stock them. If your local does not have them ask them to get them from another store, this should not cost you any difference.

QldKev


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## hoppy2B

Yob said:


> one would assume that if it's out of solution you will not be retaining it with either lid or gladwrap.. its out of solution.. innit :blink:
> 
> honestly...
> 
> 
> 
> :lol:




:unsure: Ummmmm....... you have undoubtedly carried out experimentation on atmospheric saturation levels of hop aroma components, so I won't argue with you on this one Yob.


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## mr_tyreman

Tmmu Hiid said:


> How to ferment a cat
> View attachment 57761



Hahaha Bad Boy Bubby!

love's it

The whole blanket on top is only good for a very short amount of time... if the air and the co2 are in contact with each other, they will equalize


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## Liam_snorkel

mr_tyreman said:


> The whole blanket on top is only good for a very short amount of time... if the air and the co2 are in contact with each other, they will equalize


I thought that undisturbed, the CO2 would settle into a layer above the wort as it is heavier than 'air'?
Angel tits.


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## kymba

Pretty sure that gasses can only form layers if they are liquids, and that 2 or more gasses can occupy the same space?

Thems not angel tits!


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## hoppy2B

CO2 is heavier than air.... and gases aren't liquids. :blink:


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## hoppy2B

And oils aint oils. :lol:


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## Mike L'Itorus

If it all equalises, and if gasses can't form layers, then work will be more comfortable for me....I can throw out my BA and not have to bother with troublesome and annoying gas meters when I do confined space entries. :unsure: 

For people that are really that concerned about oxidisation....ffs, speak to a nerd. Ask a chemist (a real chemist, not a pharmacist) about the relative solubility of gasses in liquid....

All you need on top of your fermenter is _something _to stop shit from falling in it, at the most. And anyone that says anything different to that is a complete moron, or an ignoramus of the first order. Ever heard of open fermentation? Stone squares? Where is Bribie and his picture of a stone square fermentation when you need it?

FFS, this hullabaloo about letting air contact the wort just goes around and around and around, and for so many ppl, the sky is falling! I thought this shit was debunked years ago.  

end rant.
:angry:


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## Liam_snorkel

Well not a strict layer but a blanket. You know what I meant; if undisturbed it will remain there and not mix with the air that much. I'm happy to be corrected though.

Pizza for cat.


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## bignath

Liam_snorkel said:


> Pizza for cat.




:lol: :lol: 

You're a sexy woman Flo!

Great big white whoppers of things....


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## Mike L'Itorus

Liam_snorkel said:


> Well not a strict layer but a blanket. You know what I meant; if undisturbed it will remain there and not mix with the air that much. I'm happy to be corrected though.
> 
> Pizza for cat.



my rant wasn't directed at your post...but rather at those with an opposing viewpoint. Undisturbed, it will indeed sit in a layer/blanket/pocket, whatever you want to call it.


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## Liam_snorkel

Yep I didn't see your post until after I had posted mine I was responding to Kymba :beer:


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## Mike L'Itorus

Funny, that...so was I. Although such nonsense isn't really worth responding to. We should know better than that, Liam. h34r:


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## Brewman_

Absolutely no problem with glad wrap. Do it. And I use it in any situation. I cover if cold conditioning for weeks, but I do that with normal lids too.
Fear.


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## Cocko

He gets angry around 10.30 - 11.. just FYI.


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## pk.sax

Cocko said:


> He gets angry around 10.30 - 11.. just FYI.


You should give yourself to him more often. For the bad of all.


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## Mike L'Itorus

Cocko said:


> He gets angry around 10.30 - 11.. just FYI.



You're a big girls blouse, cocko. But you do spin me right round. Like a record, baby.


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## Cocko

Mike L said:


> Whatever, I prefer the angry you.... you push back!


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## Mike L'Itorus

Cocko said:


> Whatever, I prefer the angry you.... you push back!



I'll only push back if you have the courtesy to give me a reach-around.  

My priest told me it's not gay if you cry afterwards. :unsure:


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## Northside Novice

[quote name='Mike L'Itorus' post='962162' date='Oct 12 2012, 11:10 PM']I'll only push back if you have the courtesy to give me a reach-around.  

My priest told me it's not gay if you cry afterwards. :unsure:[/quote]


slipper has alot to answer for , he picked alot of flowers,


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## kymba

ok so my first statement was apparently full of the shit and intended to bait people, and for that i would like to say a big alan jones "sorry"

the intent of my post was to convey what i understood (keep in mind i'm pretty dumb) from the findings of searching of the google, the wikipedia, the american homebrew site and other such credible sources (and, of course AHB) as to the "layers" of the gases and the comfortable blanket that each of them form, in the homebrewing sense - i.e. on the top of a <30L fermenter

and yes H2B, "CO2 is heavier than air", i get that, but don't you die when you fall over / pass out from breathing in the layer of CO2? i assume because it is mixed with nitrogen and oxygen and some other shit...? which is really all i was trying to say

and can a gas be a liquid if it is compressed?

and what is a confined space entry? cocko should be all over that


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## Mike L'Itorus

AS 2865 1995 defines a confined space as follows



> 6.2 Confined space an enclosed or partially enclosed space which:
> (a) is at atmospheric pressure during occupancy;
> (b ) is not intended or designed primarily as a place of work;
> (c )may have restricted means for entry and exit; and
> (d) may -
> (i) have an atmosphere which contains potentially harmful levels of contaminant;
> (ii) not have a safe oxygen level; or
> (iii) cause engulfment.
> Confined spaces include but are not limited to -
> (A) storage tanks, tank cars, process vessels, boilers, pressure vessels, silos and other tank-like compartments;
> (b ) open-topped spaces such as pits or degreasers;
> (c )pipes, sewers, shafts, ducts and similar structures; and
> (D) any shipboard spaces entered through a small hatchway or access point, cargo tanks, cellular double bottom
> tanks, duct keels, ballast and oil tanks, and void spaces, but not including dry cargo holds.



Unconciousness and death do not occur immediately; STEL of >20% won't necessarily cause unconciousness in a healthy individual, although long term health repercussions can occur. At levels <7.5%, the main issue is not CO2 poisoning in and of itself, but a combination of hypoxia and co2 poisoning, given that the hypoxia results in absorption of co2 from the lung and ito the blood stream....easy examples are given on the canadian governments OHS site...link....

Although this has gone off topic far enough for me, and now I'll leave it alone, other than to be pedantic and answering the following question, and correcting the statement that lead to the question:


> and can a gas be a liquid if it is compressed?





> Pretty sure that gasses can only form layers if they are liquids, and that 2 or more gasses can occupy the same space?



A gas can never _be _a liquid. A gas is a gas. Under conditions of compression/temperature, it can _become _a liquid. At which time it ceases to be a gas.

edit to correct stupid website from changing sub paragraph letters into emoticons.


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## Liam_snorkel

Well I'm bald we cleared that up. 

Would Alan Jones brew in a chaff bag?


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## Thirsty Boy

And yet, lying on the floor of my bedroom does not cause me to pass out, nor would it if my bedroom was an enclosed space (and i have an enclosed space ticket so dont get all ranty at me) not even if someone sealed it up and left it undisturbed for ten damn years. The Co2 doesn't settle it mixes - for it to be at the bottom, it has to have started there and not had a chance to mix yet

Co2 blankets are temporary - eventually the gases mix up, slowly or quickly depending on the circumstances, but eventually. If anything is moving about (ie keg, fermenter or bottle filling) then your dreaming if you think there is some sort of protective layering going on. If your technique is great and you are patient, maybe you'll improve things a bit... but I'm yet to see a home brewer apply a "CO2 blanket" in a manner that would actually work in any significant way.

Dont get me wrong - I use cling film instead of an airlock and I think its fine. But would i do that if I was putting a beer aside to bulk age (warm or cold)? No way, it would absolutely get shitloads more oxygen exposure than if it were properly sealed.

Pick your technique for whatever reasons you want - but unless a beer is actually giving off CO2, its CO2 blanket is going to degrade and the beer is going to be oxposed to oxygen from the atmosphere. The better the barrier between the beer and the atmosphere, the more slowly that will happen - so take that into account.


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## Ivan Other One

Guys, how long are you leaving your wort in the fermenter under the gladwrap for?



Using Gladwrap, Here the brew stays in there for 14 days and so far had no probs with infections or anything else for that matter.


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## Mike L'Itorus

TB;

I was trying to point out the ridiculous extreme in some peoples thinking by arguing my opposing viewpoint, and then going beyond that to the equally ridiculous extreme.  

Of _course _the gasses will mix over time, even if undisturbed. The thing that was getting on my proverbials is that so many people consider that the co2 over the beer will dissipate _practically the split second_ that co2 production from the active ferment ceases, and then run around like headless chooks going 'you can't do that! your beer will be ruined! The sky is falling!"......

But mainly it's just that Kymbas avatar grinds my gears. B)


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## Ivan Other One

Mike L said:


> Aaahhhh, Hahahahahahahaahgahahahahaahhaa. :lol:
> :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> What a gas


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## pk.sax

Stop posting dick


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## heshtek

I want to try using gladwrap instead of my lid and airlock. I have my fermenters in a big tub with water in it that's heated by submersible aquarium heaters to keep the fermenters at my desired temp. I have to lift them out of the tub and put them on a table to take gravity readings so I know when to bottle. Is this going to cause the gladwrap to break or come off the fermenter?


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## Ducatiboy stu

No.


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## jeddog

I think I've have been converted?? I do/did have a Dip tube though my lid that housed a tempmate probe but I think I can get away with the probe on the outside of the fermenter.......?



Less cleaning and sanitation and I can see whats happening in my fermenter.


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## Black Devil Dog

I've tried a probe in a dip tube, both in my plastic fermenters and now in my S/S ones, but I've gone back to sticking it on the outside. Less potential for infection IMO.

Glad wrap is definitely easier than using an air lock, whether it's better, is probably debatable. I'm inclined to agree that the longer a batch is protected only by glad wrap, the higher the likelihood of the co2 barrier degrading and oxidation becoming an issue . 



_O.T: Wonder why Mike L'Itorus was banned._


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## pipsyboy

Mike L'Itorus said:


> If it all equalises, and if gasses can't form layers, then work will be more comfortable for me....I can throw out my BA and not have to bother with troublesome and annoying gas meters when I do confined space entries. :unsure:
> 
> For people that are really that concerned about oxidisation....ffs, speak to a nerd. Ask a chemist (a real chemist, not a pharmacist) about the relative solubility of gasses in liquid....
> 
> All you need on top of your fermenter is _something _to stop shit from falling in it, at the most. And anyone that says anything different to that is a complete moron, or an ignoramus of the first order. Ever heard of open fermentation? Stone squares? Where is Bribie and his picture of a stone square fermentation when you need it?
> 
> FFS, this hullabaloo about letting air contact the wort just goes around and around and around, and for so many ppl, the sky is falling! I thought this shit was debunked years ago.
> 
> end rant.
> :angry:


My mates uncle brews like this. Only lost 4 brews in 30+ years.


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## Major Arcana

pipsyboy said:


> My mates uncle brews like this. Only lost 4 brews in 30+ years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1419200176.153941.jpg


Bugger me, is that just a tea towel over the top?

+1 for glad wrap lids! :beerbang:


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## Black n Tan

Major Arcana said:


> Bugger me, is that just a tea towel over the top?
> 
> +1 for glad wrap lids! :beerbang:


Finally you 'glad wrappers' know how us 'solid lidders' feel when we see a glad wrap lid...bugger me is that just glad wrap over the top! h34r:


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## Major Arcana

Black n Tan said:


> Finally you 'glad wrappers' know how us 'solid lidders' feel when we see a glad wrap lid...bugger me is that just glad wrap over the top! h34r:


good call mate I was exactly the same at one stage! h34r:


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## HBHB

pipsyboy said:


> My mates uncle brews like this. Only lost 4 brews in 30+ years.
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1419200176.153941.jpg


They're not lost mate, just hidden under all the wraps on the bench, surrounded by trillions of wild yeast cells in the dust.


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## pipsyboy

Major Arcana said:


> Bugger me, is that just a tea towel over the top?
> 
> +1 for glad wrap lids! :beerbang:


Ha ha, yeah mate. And a dirty (looking) one at that. 

His beer was ok. Straight K&K. No temp control except the doona. That's all he's ever been or will ever be. It suits him and that's that.


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## jc64

pipsyboy said:


> My mates uncle brews like this. Only lost 4 brews in 30+ years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1419200176.153941.jpg


If that was a farmhouse in Belgium people would be paying a shitload of coin to taste the 'wild' ale. :lol:


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