# Sauerkraut Culture?



## Bribie G (13/3/13)

I've recently gone back to a "Primal" or "Paleolithic" based diet and keen to get some real sauerkraut happening to chow down on with a nice slab of pork belly and a big jug of cider.

Anybody know of where I can get the culture to ferment the stuff?


----------



## sp0rk (13/3/13)

There was an article in BYO not long ago
I'll look through my copies and find it for you


----------



## Dunkelbrau (13/3/13)

I can't remember what their username is on here, but someone ferments a lot of different foods and sauces.. They have a site called www.bentheurbanfarmer.com and I have seen sauerkraut on there!


----------



## benno1973 (13/3/13)

Thanks for the plug jurt!

I have a blog post on sauerkraut here. No need for starter cultures Bribie, the cabbage will have enough LAB cultures on there for it to ferment spontaneously, and given the salt levels and then the acidity created by the LAB cultures, nothing else gets a foothold. Keep temps low (18-20C) and the cabbage submerged below the brine and you'll be all good. 

There's also a post of doing vegetable ferments in vacuum sealed bags if you're looking for another use for the vacuum sealer!


----------



## AndrewQLD (13/3/13)

You can get a vegetable culture here if you don't want to use salt.


----------



## Bribie G (13/3/13)

Thanks guys, I'll go the Culture from that Brisbane shop, ordering right now. Another reason I'm going primitive is because I'd love to reduce my blood pressure medications - if not get off them altogether - and salt is counter productive in that regard :lol:

OK, ordered and paid for.

Noob question of course but is there any danger of the lactobacillus getting out and interfering with my brewery fermentations? Might do the veggie fermenting in the laundry.


----------



## Florian (13/3/13)

Hey Bribie,

I've ordered the culture from the same outlet recently, it's good stuff. While you're at it, culture some other veggies up as well, not just cabbage. It's great as a side dish to any meal. 
They have instructions on the website, and if you get a chance to chat to the owner David it'll be well worth it, he's full of knowledge on the subject and spins some good yarns, too. 
Got some yoghurt and probiotic cultures as well, together with heaps of other useful stuff. 

If you were still up here I'd bring you some to the next BABBs meeting, but hey, you ran away so what can I do...

And yep, you're right about the brewing danger, am a bit paranoid about it myself. 

As already pointed out, Kaiser Soze is the go to man here on the forum.


----------



## benno1973 (13/3/13)

Totally understand why you'd want to go salt free. There's a Sandor Katz book called Wild Fermentation where he talks about making salt free sauerkraut three different ways, although I've never tried it. 

Add a cup of wine rather than the salt.
Substitute carraway, celery and dill for the salt.
Substitute seaweed for the salt.
Could be an interesting experiment if you ever don't have the commercial culture on hand. Having said that, I assume that you can (after creating your first batch of kraut) use the sauerkraut brine to innoculate the next batch?



Bribie G said:


> Thanks guys, I'll go the Culture from that Brisbane shop, ordering right now. Another reason I'm going primitive is because I'd love to reduce my blood pressure medications - if not get off them altogether - and salt is counter productive in that regard :lol:


----------



## Bribie G (13/3/13)

I'd bet you can reculture the stuff like you can reculture yeast cake - looking at the instructions on their site I'd guess you could take a cup of the sauerkraut and brine and whizz it up in the blender and use that to "inoculate" the next batch.

Mine is going to have some red and green chillies, garlic and ginger in it as well, naturally. :icon_drool2:


----------



## benno1973 (13/3/13)

Sounds a lot like kimchi! (There's a good thread on that here somewhere)

As far as cross-contamination is concerned: I've got a separate spot for fermenting vegies, but once I refrigerate, it's in my keg fridge or fermentation fridge, as it's in a sealed jar. Not a big risk IMO.


----------



## Batz (13/3/13)

Bribie G said:


> I'd bet you can reculture the stuff like you can reculture yeast cake - looking at the instructions on their site I'd guess you could take a cup of the sauerkraut and brine and whizz it up in the blender and use that to "inoculate" the next batch.
> 
> Mine is going to have some red and green chillies, garlic and ginger in it as well, naturally. :icon_drool2:


Sounds nice Mike, I've never thought much about making my own kraut.

We do eat quite a bit of it here, in the belief it is very good for the body. From what I have read if your farts stink you you need to eat kraut, it has a beneficial bacteria in there
.
Best if your sh&t doesn't stink hey? Like you and me.


----------



## Bribie G (13/3/13)

Yup you've got to make your own - I think that the only canners who make the stuff nowadays are Edgell, and it's clearly the VB of sauerkraut 
I expect you can track down gourmet or craft versions but this neck of the woods most of the population are meat and potatoes or, worse, Dominos and Maccas.

Edit: yes the gut flora definitely need a touch up, my current ones are the variety with the horns and forked tails in the "inner health" ad.


----------



## Batz (13/3/13)

Bribie G said:


> Yup you've got to make your own - I think that the only canners who make the stuff nowadays are Edgell, and it's clearly the VB of sauerkraut
> I expect you can track down gourmet or craft versions but this neck of the woods most of the population are meat and potatoes or, worse, Dominos and Maccas.
> 
> Edit: yes the gut flora definitely need a touch up, my current ones are the variety with the horns and forked tails in the "inner health" ad.



No mate, Cooroy IGA has at least eight brands of sauerkraut.


----------



## Bribie G (13/3/13)

That's what I used to find with IGA in QLD. They were bloody good for "weird" stuff. 15 varieties of "hamster in a jar" etc. However here in Colesworths territory they only stock one variety of kraut.
Tried to buy black pudding the other day. Blank looks all round.

Down down, choices are down.

Actually a Supa IGA has opened recently, might pop in there for a look see.And you'd think that Aldi of all people would be bursting with Sauerkraut to go with their excellent wurst range.

edit: hey order's on Fastway now, better get some veggies in.


----------



## Florian (13/3/13)

Bribie G said:


> And you'd think that Aldi of all people would be bursting with Sauerkraut to go with their excellent wurst range.


they do once a year, just gotta stock up. Made in Poland, though, not that that's necessarily a bad thing.





EDIT: Thanks for reminding me, just opened a glass of the red cabbage (Rotkohl), it's excellent! Will go perfectly with the steaks and roast potatoes tonight.


----------



## Bribie G (13/3/13)

haha - when they were little my two boys lived with their Mum and her second husband who's from Hamburg - Xmas Eve they would have the traditional German feast with the red cabbage, then next day I'd pick them up and stuff them with Oz BBQ Xmas food, they would be comatose for days afterwards.

What time of the year does it appear?


----------



## Batz (13/3/13)

Florian said:


> they do once a year, just gotta stock up. Made in Poland, though, not that that's necessarily a bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have several jars of that red cabbage Florian, sort of stuck on this Sauerkraut


----------



## Florian (13/3/13)

Good old Kühne, certainly the stand out brand in Germany as well. Shame it's so bloody expensive over here. 

Bribie, think I picked it up around Oktoberfest from memory.

While we're on the subject, anyone tried Sauerkraut juice mixed with a dash of carrot juice (and just a hint of honey if you want to sweeten it up a bit more)?


----------



## Batz (13/3/13)

Florian said:


> Good old Kühne, certainly the stand out brand in Germany as well. Shame it's so bloody expensive over here.


 796gm jar around $5.00, not too bad.


----------



## Bribie G (14/3/13)

Absolutely amazing, the culture arrived 10 minutes ago on Fastway from Brisbane having been ordered less than 24 hours ago. Aus Post I'd be waiting till Monday.

Went into town this morning and bought a mandolin slicer / julienne thingo so I can get cracking this afternoon B)


----------



## Batz (14/3/13)

Keep us posted Mike, I for one am really interested in this. I have heard that fermenting cabbage smells really bad :unsure: you will have to confirm this for us.

Batz


----------



## Bribie G (16/3/13)

Bought a mandolin slicer yesterday for doing kilos of onions for my curry bases, came in handy today.

*Kraut-chi*


Half a savoy cabbage thinly sliced
quarter red cabbage thinly sliced
2 carrots julienned
2 chokos julienned thanks to next door neighbours' invading choko vine - invade I say invade 
3 long green chillies chopped

_a handful of the above mix put in blender with:_


a cup of water
a cup of white wine
pinch of the culture
heaped teaspoon of garlic ginger paste

Whizzed up and mixed in with the main veggies, covered with water in a 4L plastic tub (it's the one I've been using for starters - will buy a new one)

I've put a plate on the top so it all stays under water, and I'll cling the whole lot same as when I brew - might be ready for Easter if I'm lucky.
Now I'll have to find a cool spot - it's still about 23 ambient in the garage but probably dip a couple of days after this spell of warm weather we're having.


----------



## AndrewQLD (16/3/13)

Bribie, I would turn the plate over so you don't have an air pocket underneath, also try to make sure none of the vegetables are sticking out, they will attract mold.


----------



## Bribie G (16/3/13)

Thanks, will re wrap


----------



## Bribie G (18/3/13)

Two days in, the tub is in the corner of the garage next to the pushbike, ambient around 23 hereabouts.

Looks like something is happening, the veggie mass is rising and showing some nice blood red liquid which I guess comes from the red cabbage, so it's exuding.

mmmm - exuding :icon_drool2:

glad I put the plate on top, all under control at the moment. I gladdied it all and hopefully it should be immune from foreign organisms creeping in, as when beer brewing.


----------



## Bribie G (19/3/13)

I'm glad I have it in a corner of the garage, which is now starting to smell like a sow-stall piggery. I hope this stuff isn't going to kill me :blink:

Of course there's always the possibility that there's a dead possum in the garage roof, wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## Howlingdog (20/3/13)

Bribie, bury it in the ground for winter then dig it up in six months.


----------



## punkin (20/3/13)

Lactic souring goes through a few distinct stages over a few days. I'll PM you a link to a site where they discuss illegal collection of steam that has a fantastic description of the lactic souring process. Within 5 days it should just smell like sweet sour milk. (that's after it's gone through the shit stage and the vomit stage  )


----------



## davo4772 (20/3/13)

&nbsp;


Kaiser Soze said:


> Thanks for the plug jurt!
> &nbsp;
> I have a blog post on sauerkraut here. No need for starter cultures Bribie, the cabbage will have enough LAB cultures on there for it to ferment spontaneously, and given the salt levels and then the acidity created by the LAB cultures, nothing else gets a foothold. Keep temps low (18-20C) and the cabbage submerged below the brine and you'll be all good.&nbsp;
> &nbsp;
> There's also a post of doing vegetable ferments in vacuum sealed bags if you're looking for another use for the vacuum sealer!


&nbsp;

What an excellent blog


----------



## benno1973 (20/3/13)

Thanks David! Still some experiments that I need to write up, but it's getting there slowly...


----------



## Bribie G (20/3/13)

Punkin, got the link - thanks


----------



## Bribie G (1/4/13)

It's done - wow what a flavour hit. I call it Kraut-Chi

Savoy and Red cabbage, carrot, choko, garlic, ginger and chillis with a lovely sour kick. Makes the canned Sauerkraut seem like baby food.

It's surprising how it's all shrunk down, got rid of at least a litre of surplus liquid. Of course a real man would swig that neat with some extra jalapenos before giving the Mrs a good seeing to. 

I'm going to have some for afternoon snack with Knackwurst.


----------



## Burchman82 (1/4/13)

Dude thats awesome. Im keen to give it a go! Just need to find some jars big enough....


Was the stench really that bad? I dont have a shed I can put it in.... well i do, but its like 100 degrees in there.


----------



## Bribie G (1/4/13)

This lot fermented out at around 24-27 as we had a heatwave for the time of year. The smell was really only for the first three days then settled down. On spooning it out into the storage jar it just smelled like store bought sauerkraut out of the jar.

The "fermenter" was just a 3L HDPE storage pail thing from the Reject Shop. The storage jar is a $7 polycarbonate jar from the Reject Shop as well but they have more conventional food preserving jars for $3.


----------



## Bizier (1/4/13)

Bribie G said:


> Savoy and Red cabbage, carrot, _*choko*_, garlic, ginger and chillis


I don't care how long you have been here, what you have done and what your legal position is.

Today Bribie, I recognise you as a true Australian.


----------



## bradsbrew (1/4/13)

We had a choko vine as a kid. I will never put my kids through that trauma.


----------



## Bribie G (1/4/13)

Bizier said:


> I don't care how long you have been here, what you have done and what your legal position is.
> 
> Today Bribie, I recognise you as a true Australian.


Hola, hombre, you refer to Chayote, the true Aztec vegetable that now grows wild in in Louisiana etc and was brought over to Australia by American migrants during the gold rushes and now graces many a fence. :lol:
Thanks anyway, the Choko is in the same category as Fosters Lager, the Fosters Bros also being from California.

Edit:

half Chinese Cabbage
a choko
teaspoon garlic paste
teaspoon ginger paste
3 rashers of bacon finely chopped
2 TBS veg oil
Sesame Oil
1 TSP oyster sauce

Finely shred the wombok, chinese cabbage
cut the choko in half lengthways and slice in madolin or using the single slice thing on one side of your box grater

Gently fry the bacon in large pan or wok to release the fat.
Add the wombok and choko which have been tossed together, plus the garlic and ginger and stir fry till tender.
When cooked, sprinkle with sesame oil and stir
drizzle with oyster sauce and fold in.


----------



## of mice and gods (1/4/13)

G'day guys,

I had a bumper cabbage crop last spring and as we don't use much cabbage I decided to turn a bunch of it into sauerkraut for an upcoming German themed party. I never bothered with a culture as I believe there is enough occurring naturally on the cabbages and in the air (I also like sourdough bread!).

I believe you'll find due to Australian food standards, all the store bough jars/cans have been heat sterilized (which coks the kraut making it lose crunch and texture) or irradiated - This essentially kills all the biota in the food so you don't actually get any of the purported pro-biotic health benefits from commercial saurkraut. I do use it when I run out of my own, but the best way to have killer kraut and all the benefits is to make your own.

So, my method was;

take as many cabbages as you want (I had about 7 good sized round cabbages from the veggie patch spare), peel off the shitty leaves cut out the stalk and most of the core, rinse and slice them (as thick or thin as you like.. mine range between 2 - 6mm). You can use a mandolin but I just used a knife. As I had sliced each cabbage I put it into a large bowl and pounded it with a mortar (but any kind of knock-o-meter works) for a few minutes, this bruises the cabbage and helps it to start releasing some of it's natural juice. I sprinkled about 2-3 taplespoons of table salt over each time (which will also draw out more liquid) and a quick grind of black pepper. Every few cabbages I also sliced and added a leek from the garden. When all my cabbages and leeks were done I let the mixture sit over night covered with a tea towel.

One thing that freaked me out about the traditional method was where they often mentioned 'scraping the slime/crap/scum off the top of the kraut every few days. Now I don't have a traditional crockery krauting vessel but I did have a spare 25L black plastic fermenter which I thought was actually better. So I took my mixture of cabbage/leek/salt from the day before and poured it into my fermenter, I added a dried clove for every cabbage and a few diced garlic cloves and gave it a quick mix. Now, the cabbage should have produced a fair amount of it's own liquid but you'll probably have to top up with a little bit of water just to make it easier to actually submerge everything. At this point, I top the fermenter up with couple litres of water (with an extra tablespoon or salt), I give this a really good mix and then push all the cabbage down and to pack it in and submerge it.

I was a bit worried about the traditional methods continually mentioning 'scraping the scum off the top of the kraut every few days', so I filled a plastic food safe bag wth water and salt, tied a knot in it and used this to keep my cabbage submerged. The added benefit is if you use an appropriate sized bag when it sits on the surface it will form a perfect air tight seal, only releasing fermentation gases. No scum, no scraping, and if the bag bursts it's just extra brine. I still put the lid on the fermenter and whacked on the airlock just to be super sure.

4 weeks later with fairly minimal smell (I wouldn't put it in SWMBO's en suite though), we had kilo's and kilo's or killer kraut. We consumed vast quantities with beer and bratwurst (try grating an apple with your saurkraut and then grilling quickly with your brats), jarred the rest and put it in the fridge (again, just being cautious). I just found a jar the other day (6 months later) in the fridge and it was still crunchy and tastey.

So, I'm about to sow cabbage seeds in the veg patch again for this seasons krauting 

Cheers,
Al


----------



## Bizier (1/4/13)

Bribie G said:


> Hola, hombre, you refer to Chayote, the true Aztec vegetable that now grows wild in in Louisiana etc and was brought over to Australia by American migrants during the gold rushes and now graces many a fence. :lol:
> Thanks anyway, the Choko is in the same category as Fosters Lager, the Fosters Bros also being from California.


Exactly, chokos are as Australian as pampas grass and prickly pear.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (2/4/13)

And cane toads


----------



## philmud (11/2/14)

Thought I'd revive this one as I've been making lots of kraut lately and I've also got some beetroot on the go. I also tried some cucumber kim chi which was good, but I suspect the last batch have me a catastrophic migraine (or a coincidence?)


----------



## TimT (11/2/14)

Yeah we've got kraut at our house. I've suggested to the Baron, my wife, that if we get a really really good kraut we might consider using that as a starter for future krauts, but apparently this is frowned on in fermentation circles because the bacteria don't have a chance to go through their normal cycles or something. Yeah, but we'll end up with better tasting kraut. (I'm not that fussed but. Not as if I do much kraut making.)


----------



## Mardoo (11/2/14)

Woe be to thee, who receiveth the fermentation frown!!! Fie upon thee, may thy crock be cast to hell! HELLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!

couldn't resist


----------



## philmud (11/2/14)

I hadn't heard that, about using a starter being frowned upon. I've tried it, and it certainly kicks things off more quickly but I can't say I've noticed a difference in flavour. I got my info/method from "The Art of Fermentation" and Sandor Katz seems ambivalent about the use of starters - he does make the point that they're unnecessary and that has certainly been my experience so far. Does the Baron put any seeds/herbs in her kraut?


----------



## TimT (11/2/14)

We sometimes chuck in some other vegies or fruit. Just getting to the bottom of a beetroot/cabbage kraut at the moment. I think herbs and seeds might be a good addition actually. I can't remember why uses of starters are frowned upon - not nutritionally as good? I'll just yell a question over the house.... wait a second....


----------



## TimT (11/2/14)

Hmmm. Because with a starter you skip parts of the fermentation, meaning there'll be less diversity of lacto-bacilli in your final sauerkraut apparently. Which is bad why, I asked? Might impact the flavour (not as 'rich') and not quite as good for you (the nutritional benefits of sauerkraut, I think, partly arise from the fact that the bacteria in the kraut will feed the bacteria in your gut).


----------



## philmud (11/2/14)

TimT said:


> I think, partly arise from the fact that the bacteria in the kraut will feed the bacteria in your gut).


Absolutely - it's a powerful probiotic. I guess it makes sense - using a starter speeds up the fermentation process. Katz says he often gets asked when the optimal nutritional benefits of fermentation are present in kraut. His response is that he thinks it's important to eat foods right throughout the process to benefit from the bacterial diversity. Thanks for that, I might ditch the kraut-juice-as-starter, especially as it seems superfluous.


----------



## philmud (11/2/14)

Mardoo said:


> Woe be to thee, who receiveth the fermentation frown!!! Fie upon thee, may thy crock be cast to hell! HELLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> couldn't resist


That reference is lost on me, but I will say that it sounds like an early entry in one of the infection threads.


----------



## TimT (11/2/14)

Made no sense to me either but I loved it.


----------



## pommiebloke (11/2/14)

Keen to give this try. Is it best to do this away from the brewery to minimise the risk of the LAB contaminating my beer?


----------



## MartinOC (11/2/14)

Currently under the oppression of some sort of green-gunge-producing throat/chest lurgy, for which I've been prescribed anti-biotics (SWMBO reckons I sound dead sexy...except I have to sleep on the couch :angry: ).

As the anti-biotics ruin one's gut flora, I've been chowing-down on bowls of sloppy rice & home-made Kimchi (easy to swallow, with LOTS of garlic & chilli) for probiotics.

So, I'm getting better, eating well, but SWMBO now doesn't want me breathing garlic all over her!!!


----------



## philmud (11/2/14)

I do it in my kitchen for that reason PB, though I'm not sure it's entirely necessary. If you like sauerkraut, then definitely give it a shot, it's dead easy and the results are really good. I'll share my method because IMO a bit simpler than some of the descriptions I've read.

I use a 4L glass jar that I bought at a cheapie Asian shop for about $5. It has a plastic lid and I suspect the seal is less than airtight. I chop, salt and bruise the veggies and pack them into this jar. A very big cabbage almost half fills it. I place a round Tupperware lid on the surface of the cabbage - this is handy because I can bend it to get it through the neck of the jar, and then let it snap back into shape to cover most of the cabbage surface area. Then I put a clean, empty stubby on the Tupperware lid. This protrudes about an inch past the top of the jar, but there's still enough give in the cabbage to allow me to screw on the lid. The bottle applies pressure to the kraut and pretty soon the surface of the cabbage is submerged in brine. I "burp" the kraut every day or two to let out gas. After a week or two, I have delicious kraut.


----------



## philmud (11/2/14)

Kim chi is delicious Martin! Yum


----------



## philmud (11/2/14)

Thought I'd post these for illustrative purposes. This is two different batches, both with beetroot in addition to cabbage.


----------



## MartinOC (11/2/14)

Prince, is that just chunks of raw beetroot in with white cabbage & the chunks "bleed" colour into the whole mass? Looks great & sounds good, too!


----------



## philmud (12/2/14)

MartinOC said:


> Prince, is that just chunks of raw beetroot in with white cabbage & the chunks "bleed" colour into the whole mass? Looks great & sounds good, too!


Yep, though the second batch I grated the beetroot for a more consistent texture.


----------



## Mardoo (12/2/14)

pommiebloke said:


> Keen to give this try. Is it best to do this away from the brewery to minimise the risk of the LAB contaminating my beer?


I too have wondered this, also for vinegars. Presumably best away from the brewery, yes?

Y'all are definitely getting convincing me to get back into making kimchi and sauerkraut. Did it regularly 20 years ago. One of my favourites was with radicchio, but a bit weirdly slimy.


----------



## TimT (12/2/14)

Cross contamination can be a worry. For instance I've read about bread yeast getting into (and ruining) cheese. But lacto-bacilli, like yeast, are ubiquitous anyway. We're probably breathing some in and out all the time. And with kraut the lacto-fermentation just takes place after you chop and salt and cover the vegetable with water - the fermentation is anaerobic, so has to take place under water. Ergo, it may not be such an issue. Basically chuck a cloth over it and leave in a warm room. To keep the risks of cross-contamination absolutely minimal you can probably do it away from the brewery but I think it's probably pretty minimal anyway.


----------



## DeGarre (25/5/14)

Kaiser Soze said:


> ...
> I have a blog post on sauerkraut here....


Exactly a blog I want to read, goes to my blog feed. Merci!


----------

