# 3068 starter need a lot of head space?



## carniebrew (25/3/13)

I'm just about to make up a 1 litre starter from a Wyeast 3068 smack pack with a mfr date of Jan 15. I'm only doing an 11 litre dunkelweizen this time around, so I'm planning to pitch half the smack pack into the 1l of starter wort, saving the rest for other weizen batches. I smacked it yesterday and it's swelled up big time as expected.

From what I can work out via yeastcalc.com, my pack is 70% viable (based on mfr date), so I'm pitching around 35 billion cells into my starter. A 1l starter, with no shaking, should give me 85 billion cells. The optimal pitching rate (for 11 litres of 1050 wort) is apparently 102 billion, so I'm happy with 85 billion as I'd like to slightly underpitch this weizen.

If any of the above sounds out of whack to those more familiar with liquid yeast please call it out. My main question is, how nuts will the 1l starter go with the 3068? I've heard it's a mad krausen creator during primary fermentation, so I'm just concerned that my 2l starter vessel with 1l of wort in it might not be big enough. The only thing bigger I have is a 3l plastic juice container which I guess I could use if 1l of headspace may not be enough in my current glass starter jar?


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## JDW81 (25/3/13)

Nah mate, I've done this a few times and it doesn't throw a krausen in a starter in my experience. In the fermenter however you will need a fair amount of head space or a blow-off tube.


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## carniebrew (25/3/13)

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm only fermenting an 11l batch in a 30l fermenter this time 'round, but will hook up a blow off tube just in case. You (and others) have warned me about 3068 in the past...


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## JDW81 (25/3/13)

11L in 30L should be fine. I ferment in a cube so have a lot of krausplosions. Probably should have a blow off tube, but I keep forgetting and end up cleaning up the fridge a few times each batch.


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## warra48 (25/3/13)

This is my experience, so don't flame me of yours varies:

A 1 litre "starter" with a smackpak won't produce anything much in the way of growth. It will just ferment out.

If you are trying to pitch an active yeast, then that's fine.

If you want to grow your yeast, you'll need more like 3 to 4 litres.

I use a 3½ litres of growth wort, and it will multiply by a factor of at least 4 to 5 in that volume, if on a stirplate or actively aerated. I pitch only the yeast slurry.



Whatever you do, a wheatie with 3068 will almost always produce a BIG kraeusen, so be prepared with a blowoff tube, or get ready for a major cleanup.


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## carniebrew (25/3/13)

Is that specifically for 3068, or just an observation of your use of liquid yeast in general warra?

I am just trying to pitch an active yeast (into a 1050 dunkelweizen)...but it worries me that you say a 1 litre starter won't produce much in the way of growth, considering i'm trying to grow my yeast from 35 to 85 billion cells.

I will probably look to grow my remaining ~70ml of 3068 from the smack pack, once I've pitched my starter on the dunkel. Then look to split the growth a few ways for future 3068 brews (I want to try a 22C and 17C ferment back to back initially). I'm also planning to top crop some of the 3068 from the dunkel if I get the chance, although that's more for practice/giggles than anything else. If I only ever get 2 or 3 uses out of a Wyeast smack pack I'm happy enough, hell even using a full $11 pack on 23 litres of beer is hardly extravagant when I used to pay $50 for 6 litres (12 pack) of Weihenstephan hefe/dunkel.


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## Dan Pratt (25/3/13)

my 2c based on the current dunkelweizen and use of 3068 - 11lts in a 30 lt fermenter will be no worries.

I had 22 litres of 1047 and added a 1.3ltrs starter ( the starter had very little krausen ) and this was a fermentation monster. A few reasons are the freshness of the yeast and the fact that there was a very high wheat content which equates to alot of foam.

just to be sure have a blowoff valve.


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## JDW81 (25/3/13)

carniebrew said:


> Is that specifically for 3068, or just an observation of your use of liquid yeast in general warra?


It is characteristic of top cropping yeasts but 3068 and the krystalweizen one (can't remember the number) are monsters. 

I've had many others climb out of the fermenter (1056, Coopers reculture, 1968) but nothing like the hefe yeasts.


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## warra48 (25/3/13)

My comments about growing yeast were made generally about liquid yeasts.

I've never had a problem with kraeusen in a starter. Just doesn't seem to build up like it does in the fermenter. The blowoff tube is for the fermenter, not the starter.


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## carniebrew (29/3/13)

I have to admit to being mildly concerned about the starter....1 litre with roughly 70ml of smacked 3068 in it, sitting for 24 hours with occassional shaking....everyone above was right, it never formed any real krausen, although would foam up hugely when swirled/shaken. Then 24 hours in the fridge...once the wort was decanted off, it looks like there's very little actual yeast slurry to pitch (I was aiming for ~85 billion cell count). But pitch I did, onto 11 litres of dunkel.

After 24 hours only a very small krausen, but some great aroma coming out of the fermenter already. Today, just short of two days in the fermenter a very healthy looking krausen, albeit only around 4cm thick. Decided on an experimental gravity check and taste, and it's gone from 1049 to 1020 in 46 hours, so no problems with the small yeast slurry it seems. The aroma has banana and bubblegum, interestingly like old banana, quite a rich smell....very different to anything I've gotten off wb-06 in the past. Taste is of rich, dark malt with a hint of that flavour I get out of the commercial Weihenstephan dunkel, so that's promising if it hangs around. I'm fermenting this half batch at 22.5 degrees btw. Next half batch will be done at 17 degrees for a comparison.


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## verysupple (3/4/13)

Hey Carnie, it's a good thing you were intending to underpitch because I think you actually underpitched your underpitch...if that makes sense. 3068 just doesn't floc, even in the fridge, so when you decanted the starter wort off you would have actually tipped out a fair amount of your yeast. I'm sure your beer will be great though, I accidently massively underpitched a hefe once (mfg read 12 Mar 11, I only read the Mar 11 and thought "oh good, nice and fresh" but it was 12th of March the year before :s ) and it was still tasty - just don't really want to repitch that yeast as it'll be stressed as.


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## carniebrew (3/4/13)

Cheers for that...hadn't even crossed my mind that the yeast wouldn't have flocc'd out when I decanted. It's day 7 of fermentation at it's down from 1049 to 1016, where it's been since Monday. I am expecting 1013, but am not exactly sure if the underpitch is affecting it. I will try a force ferment test with a sample and some coopers kit yeast I think.

Have you had any experience with under-pitching leaving your FG a few points higher than expected?


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## verysupple (3/4/13)

Don't bother with the forced ferment test if you're not going to use the same yeast - it won't give you any indication of what to expect in your actual batch.

Yes, I have had them finish high due to underpitching combined with poor oxygenation (expected 1.011 and got 1.014 - not that big a deal).

You're at an apparent attenuation of 67% which is quite low for that yeast. The under pitch may have played a part in this (particularly if your oxygenation isn't great). If it stays at 1.016 for a few more days but you really want to get it down, then you could pitch some of the 3068 you saved when you split the pack. I guess you could grow some up in a mini starter and pitch it at high activity - about 18 hrs in I think (I heard on a Brewing Network show that you shouldn't pitch inactive yeast into an already fermenting batch because of the alcohol or something).


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## carniebrew (3/4/13)

I just want to test if I have any fermentables left in the wort, so figured some leftover kit yeast would tell me that. If it does ferment further then I'll pitch some more 3068 on the batch. If not, I'll bottle it.

I'm heading off for two weeks on Friday so I either need to bottle tomorrow or leave it sit another two weeks...


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## verysupple (3/4/13)

OK, I understand what your're trying to do. However, different yeasts can ferment different types of sugars to different extents (it's mainly the yeasts ability to consume higher sugars like maltotriose that determine the level of attenuation). Just because the kit yeast can ferment your wort down to, say, 1.010, doesn't mean that even the healthiest pitch of 3068 will.


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## beerbog (3/4/13)

I've used 3068 a few times now, and never have I had an over zelous ferment, all were started to 1.5L. 21-22L in a 30L fermentor. No touching the glad wrap. Ferment temp 18 deg c. :icon_drool2:


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## carniebrew (3/4/13)

verysupple said:


> OK, I understand what your're trying to do. However, different yeasts can ferment different types of sugars to different extents (it's mainly the yeasts ability to consume higher sugars like maltotriose that determine the level of attenuation). Just because the kit yeast can ferment your wort down to, say, 1.010, doesn't mean that even the healthiest pitch of 3068 will.


Interesting, of all I've read on forced ferment tests, I definitely got the impression that the yeast used doesn't matter. For example, Wyeast's website says to "_inoculate with a high cell count (dried yeast works fine)", _which suggests to me a different yeast than that being used in the primary ferment.

Another discussion here (post #3) suggests using dried bakers yeast for the FFT?


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## carniebrew (3/4/13)

Mind you it seems there's different theories for the forced ferment test...Chris White's "Yeast" book describes an FFT as pulling some wort soon after pitching the yeast into the primary , and using high temps and shaking (or a stir plate) to achieve maximum attenuation from the pitched yeast.


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## bum (4/4/13)

It doesn't take a great deal of thought to work out why using a different yeast at a different pitching rate isn't going to tell you anything particularly useful.


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## stux (4/4/13)

I assume warra was talking about 1L not producing a lot of growth from a whole smack pack, not half a pack

1L for 50ml will be the same as 2L for 100ml, which is the minimum for growth really, depending on viability

Can take 3068 days to settle, and it only does after it finishes fermenting, so takes a long time to do multi step starters

I probably would've used the whole pack


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## carniebrew (4/4/13)

But why do you consider 2 litres for 100ml of yeast the 'minimum for growth'? Using Yeastcalc shows that a 100b cell pack of yeast that's only 10% viable would grow from 10b cells to 43b cells in a 1 litre starter...or 59b cells in a 2 litre starter. Obviously 2 litres of starter wort will allow for more growth, but if 1 litre gives you the growth you need to achieve your optimum cell count, why bother with more?


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## stux (4/4/13)

carniebrew said:


> But why do you consider 2 litres for 100ml of yeast the 'minimum for growth'? Using Yeastcalc shows that a 100b cell pack of yeast that's only 10% viable would grow from 10b cells to 43b cells in a 1 litre starter...or 59b cells in a 2 litre starter. Obviously 2 litres of starter wort will allow for more growth, but if 1 litre gives you the growth you need to achieve your optimum cell count, why bother with more?


I don't. 

But 100B cells into 1L does not give you any growth (can't actually check now tho)

But 10% viability means 1L will give you plenty of growth, but too much lag, which is why it's better to go 500 then 1000


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## carniebrew (5/4/13)

I'm a bit lost still, according to Yeastcalc 100b cells in a 1 litre starter will result in 151 cells, and that's with no shaking. Using a stir plate would increase that to 227 billion. So there seems to be plenty of growth available even in a 1 litre starter?

Regardless, I was starting with 35 billion, and wanted around 80 billion, so a 1 litre starter was perfect for that need.


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## V-Dawg (5/6/13)

I made a Weizen 10 days ago with 3068; OG1050, 1L starter, pitched at 17C, fermented at 17C, big blow off into the lid...
Was at 1.012 after 5 days and sits at about 19C since. Good banana and spiciness, something funny in the background though that I hope will vanish soon or with carb...

What I am wondering is whether to chill now to aid flocculation or just bottle as is - there is heaps of yeast in suspension and I think dropping out at least some would help. Opinions?
Cheers
V


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## beerdrinkingbob (6/6/13)

chill it mate, it doesn't just drop out yeast it also drops out other not so tasty compounds in suspension, you will still have enough yeast for style.


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## carniebrew (6/6/13)

Which do you prefer, a kristallweizen or a hefeweizen? I prefer the latter so say bottle it. It's supposed to be served "mit hefe", i.e. with the yeast in suspension. It'll keep dropping/clearing in the bottle too don't forget, so you can choose whether or not to roll your bottle before serving.


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## verysupple (6/6/13)

I'm with carnie on this one. By the time it's carbed up the not so tasty compounds will either be aborbed by the yeast or will drop to the bottom anyway. I didn't chill either of my last two batches with 3068 and they taste great and only have thin layer of yeast on the bottom of the bottle (~ 0.5 mm) but a perfect amount in suspension. I did leave them in the fermentor for two weeks though instead of bottling as soon as SG was stable. That helps a lot with getting rid of unwanted flavour compounds.


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## carniebrew (6/6/13)

Agreed, my last dunkel, which is the first I've made that's been truly spot on compared to the commercial examples, was in the fermenter for 17 days. 17C for the first 7, where it stopped at 1019 (from a 1055 start), then 19C for the next 10 days, where it only dropped another point (I had 300gm of 3 different crystal malts in a 13l batch).


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## V-Dawg (6/6/13)

Cheers guys! I think I will go with letting it sit for some longer then at 19C and possibly chill for a couple of days before bottling.

This one will be rolled and served in the proper tall glass!


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