# English Styles



## tangent (13/3/07)

I want to brew a few more English style beers. I've grown fond of Maris and EKG and English yeasts.
Problem is, I want a Bitter with a real funky hop nose. The beer police told me an ESB doesn't have the hop nose. Killjoys.

Can someone fill me in on some of the English beer styles?

I tried a version of a Summer Ale which was really refreshing with the wheat.

Most of the bottle shop UK beers I've tried have been pretty damn bland, but obviously didn't travel well.

edit - Mods, I'm after AG recipes so please excuse my AG post.


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## Malnourished (13/3/07)

tangent said:


> Problem is, I want a Bitter with a real funky hop nose. The beer police told me an ESB doesn't have the hop nose. Killjoys.


The beer police done told you wrong.

Ever been to the Wig & Pen? Their IPA has this crazy British hop aroma that's like a mix of weeds, dried tarragon, sweat and cream cheese. I'd guess it's mostly Fuggles. Just because the British stuff you get here in bottles doesn't have any hop aroma left doesn't mean it's like that in Blighty. There have been a few British beers in Aus over the last few years which have had a decent hop character, but the only one that's around at the moment that I can think of is Belhaven Twisted Thistle (though apparently that uses some Cascade.) 

Hop away, I say. I really like to dry-hop a bitter, but I must confess I use a lot less (1-2 plugs in a keg) than I would in an APA. 

(Of course the hop aroma you get with UK hops is going to be rather different to what you'll get with US/NZ/wherever varieties.)

Edit: speling


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## Kai (13/3/07)

My interpretation is that a bitter can have good aroma, it just does not dominate the bitterness. Maybe I'm being literal and letting the name confuse me.


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## T.D. (13/3/07)

Tangent, I know exactly what you mean - I love a good hoppy English ale but most commercial ones out there seem to be pretty light on. I've brewed a couple in the past with a pretty healthy dose of late hops, and I usually stick them in Beersmith as an "English Pale Ale". Guidelines from Beersmith are below. In the "profile" section it mentions medium to high bitterness and hop aroma. I always figured that kind of covers "bitter" but with more assertive hop aroma. If this style had an OG range that started at 1.042 or so it would be perfect IMO.

*English Pale Ale*
*Type:* Ale
*Category Number:* 8C 
*Original Gravity:* 1.048-1.065 SG
*Color:* 11.8-35.5 EBC 
*Final Gravity: * 1.010-1.016 SG Bitterness: 30.0-55.0 IBU 
*Carbonation: * 1.5-2.4 vols Alcohol by Volume: 4.6-6.2 % 
*Description: * Famous style from Burton-on-Trent. Stronger body than ordinary bitter, but slightly less bitter. A balanced, easy drinking beer that is malty and strong but not overbearing. 
*Profile:* Medium to full body, with medium to high bitterness and hop aroma. Dry with a defined hop flavor. Golden to copper color. Crystal malt evident. Low carbonation for kegs, medium for bottled version. 
*Ingredients: * English pale, amber and/or crystal malts. English hops. Water with high sulfate profile enhances bitterness perception (i.e. famous Burton-on-Trent Water) 
*Examples:* Bass Pale Ale, Whitbread Pale Ale, Royal Oak, Fullers ESB, Marston's Pedigree, Black Sheep Ale, Great Lakes Moondog Ale, Shipyard Old Thumper, Alaskan ESB, Adnams Broadside 


I've had a chance to try a couple of KoNG's English ales that have been dry hopped with Styrian Goldings. The aroma was nothing short of sensational! I highly recommend this hop for dry hopping English beers.


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## jayse (13/3/07)

Make whatever beer you want really. To say theres a few main english pale styles acording to so called guidelines is a little silly. That really is nonsense as you can make any beer which is anywhere from fairly pale to dark amber with any amount of whatever english ingredients and call it a english pale ale. The breweries themselves don't look at any guidelines and think wait we can't do that or we'll be out of style, it just doesn't work like that. Make whatever you like and be happy.
Guidelines are not even themselves as narrow as some people think, sure theres beers that fit right in the middle of them that some people think are the ducks guts of that style but in the end there really is not that many limitations with these style.

Just brew whatever beer it is thats in your brain. :super: 




Boozed, broozed and broken boned.
Jayse


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## tangent (13/3/07)

thanks guys.
i'm not brewing in accordance with brew police regulations but the comment about hop aroma in an ESB really threw me.
so Golden Promise, bitter with Bramling X and EKG all the way home?
I only have German Cara range, can i sub that for pommy xtal?


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## Ross (13/3/07)

tangent said:


> I only have German Cara range, can i sub that for pommy xtal?



YES... Caramunich goes particularly well in a bitter.

cheers Ross


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## warrenlw63 (13/3/07)

tangent said:


> thanks guys.
> i'm not brewing in accordance with brew police regulations but the comment about hop aroma in an ESB really threw me.
> so Golden Promise, bitter with Bramling X and EKG all the way home?
> I only have German Cara range, can i sub that for pommy xtal?



ESB is always a funny style classification. There's probably only one English derivative of it (Fullers) and all the rest are American micro wannabes (but probably nothing at all wrong with them) that slowly seem to go more OTT to be better than the next.

I reckon whatever you toss together with fresh ingredients will cut it. Main non-negotiable rule is you should use Marris Otter and English Ale yeast IMO. The rest can be as eclectic as you want it to be.

Second (or is that third?) the use of German Cara Malts. I've combined Cara Aroma with Baird's Crystal and Amber to give some really top flavours to a bitter. :beer: 

Let the style Nazis be frustrated.  

Warren -


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## tangent (13/3/07)

all out of Maris but GP is unopened yet. what do you think?
I've never tried GP before.


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## Tony (13/3/07)

I recon there is no substitute for good english crystal and chocolate malts.

Hops to use are Target for bittering only (it can be harsh so i dont use it any more), EKG of course, northdown, challenger, fuggle and progress IMO.

I haven tried progress yet but i have some waiting to get drowned.

here is a simple special bitter using only EKG and an ESB recipe i have planned

I have used IMC ale malt cause its all i have at the moment (50KG's of it) but i prefer MO!

The Special bitter has a simple malt bill with 10% english light (100ebc) cryatal. I want a nutty sweetness to ballance to bitterness and extra hops i have in it.

The ESB has some extras in it to darken it and add to malt complexity. I have also used a combo of EKG for its mild floral character, the northdown for its crisp refreshing bright finnish and will see what progress does when its on tap 
I have heard its an intense aroma hop so should be great.

cheers

EKG bitter

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

08-B English Pale Ale, Special/Best/Premium Bitter

Min OG: 1.040 Max OG: 1.048
Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 40
Min Clr: 10 Max Clr: 32 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 52.00 Wort Size (L): 52.00
Total Grain (kg): 10.00
Anticipated OG: 1.045 Plato: 11.26
Anticipated EBC: 15.3
Anticipated IBU: 37.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
90.0 9.00 kg. IMC Ale Malt Australia 1.038 4
10.0 1.00 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 100

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
100.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 25.7 45 min.
40.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 6.8 20 min.
50.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 5.1 10 min.
50.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 0.0 0 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.10 Oz Irish Moss Fining 10 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP005 British Ale




and the ESB......





Tonys ESB

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

08-C English Pale Ale, Extra Special/Strong Bitter

Min OG: 1.048 Max OG: 1.070
Min IBU: 30 Max IBU: 60
Min Clr: 12 Max Clr: 35 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 46.00 Wort Size (L): 46.00
Total Grain (kg): 11.80
Anticipated OG: 1.060 Plato: 14.85
Anticipated EBC: 25.4
Anticipated IBU: 48.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
84.7 10.00 kg. IMC Ale Malt Australia 1.038 4
8.5 1.00 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 145
5.1 0.60 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.040 4
0.8 0.10 kg. TF Amber Malt UK 1.033 100
0.8 0.10 kg. TF Pale Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 550

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 13.1 45 min.
30.00 g. Progress Pellet 5.70 8.9 45 min.
30.00 g. Wye Northdown Pellet 7.20 11.3 45 min.
30.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 4.2 15 min.
30.00 g. Progress Pellet 5.70 4.8 15 min.
30.00 g. Wye Northdown Pellet 7.20 6.1 15 min.
30.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 0.0 0 min.
30.00 g. Progress Pellet 5.70 0.0 0 min.
30.00 g. Wye Northdown Pellet 7.20 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP005 British Ale




cheers


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## bconnery (13/3/07)

Previous posts are right. English ales give plenty of scope for good hop additions. They may not always be as in your face as the fruity APAs but they can have plenty of hop flavour and aroma. 

I tried the Wig & Pen IPA on the weekend and it was all malt and spicy English hops. It was fantastic. 

Ross will also extol the virtues of the excellent Hophead from Dark Star. 

Plenty of english ales, particularly the ESBs and IPAs have hops at all stages. 

Designing great beers suggests a bitterness unit to gravity unit ratio of 0.7 - 0.9 and also that most recipes will benefit from the addition of aroma hops and or dry hops...

I can recommend Progress too. It is an excellent bittering hop for an ESB or bitter. 

First Gold is quite fruity but I love it. Excellent in a bitter or a golden/summer ale. 

That's assuming you don't want the classic Fuggles, Goldings combination.


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## warrenlw63 (13/3/07)

tangent said:


> all out of Maris but GP is unopened yet. what do you think?
> I've never tried GP before.



Tangent

Just finished a bag of GP. While not a bad malt I must confess to being a little disappointed with it. Not as nutty/biscuity as MO. More just a high quality "pale" malt. Good for APA styles and could almost be compared to a fuller flavoured lager malt.

Warren -


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## newguy (14/3/07)

Malnourished said:


> Hop away, I say. I really like to dry-hop a bitter, but I must confess I use a lot less (1-2 plugs in a keg) than I would in an APA.
> 
> (Of course the hop aroma you get with UK hops is going to be rather different to what you'll get with US/NZ/wherever varieties.)



A member of my club brought his latest masterpiece to the last meeting: a best bitter. Wonderful hop aroma and a very mellow/rounded bitterness. His secret was mash hopping. He added 1.5x his 'normal' flavour/aroma addition directly to the mash instead of to the boil. The result was simply stunning. Very pronounced hop aroma, but the flavour and bitterness is very nice - not intense at all.

Sorry but I can't give you precise amounts.....he only said it was 1.5x what he'd normally add late in the boil. I'd guess 45 - 60g or so. He did also add bittering hops at the beginning of the boil.

Grain bill was very simple, approx. 90% ordinary 2-row and the rest medium crystal. OG 1.048 (he did tell me that), and IBUs I'd guess at being about 30 - 35 or so. Hope this helps you formulate your own recipe.


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## barneyhanway (14/3/07)

I brew a lot of ordinary bitters, mainly strictly to style. BJCP states that they should have "moderate to low" hop aroma and flavour.
I formulated my recipe based on repeated listening to the Jamil Show podcast, an excellent resource on brewing to style.
But,
now I feel I've got the recipe and process down, its time to get a little more adventurous. Which means more hops. I don't necessarily want to up the bitterness, the balance in my ordinary bitter is fine, I just want more hop character.

My opinion is, thats what its all about. Be anal about brewing to style to get the jist of a particular style, recipe, system. Then go buck wild.

Or just brew what you want to start with.
"Let the style nazi's be frustrated"... hehehe, I like that Warren.

So has anyone got a list of suggestions for late hops (or mash hops, good tip newguy) other than goldings/fuggles/willamette?


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## Wortgames (14/3/07)

A lot of English ales use European hops like Saaz and Hallertauer for aroma (if they use aroma hops at all - remember that many don't), but you can't go past EKG for real English character.


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## kook (14/3/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> ESB is always a funny style classification. There's probably only one English derivative of it (Fullers) and all the rest are American micro wannabes (but probably nothing at all wrong with them) that slowly seem to go more OTT to be better than the next.
> 
> I reckon whatever you toss together with fresh ingredients will cut it. Main non-negotiable rule is you should use Marris Otter and English Ale yeast IMO. The rest can be as eclectic as you want it to be.
> 
> ...



Dons flame suit h34r: 

In my opinion, most of the BJCP british styles are a bit funny. How the hell Fullers ESB and Hopback Summer Lightning are anywhere near alike beats me.

Personally, if you're brewing a bitter, ignore BJCP. I've had some lovely bitters that had a strong hop aroma and flavour, which would be completely out of style for judging.

If you want to brew something specifically for competitions, stick with BJCP. If you want to play around (like real UK brewers do!), go for it.

I've got to agree with warren though, english base malt and yeast is a big part of the beers. When it comes to specialty malt and hops though, go for your life. Some of the best british beers (including recent GBBF winners) use foreign hops. Just keep the carbonation down though, nobody likes a fizzy bitter.

Don't get me started on Scottish Ale(s) and the fact that many of the commercial cask examples from the UK fit better into the EPA styles. That said, the keg and bottle versions available in the US are usually brewed to completely different recipes for american tastes. h34r:


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## Tseay (14/3/07)

If you are looking for something different in hopping you might want to investigate the following:

My son has put me onto a welsh beer he tried and liked recently, Brains SA Gold, an English Golden Ale that uses target for bittering, but Cascade and S.Goldings for flavor and aroma. Next project after the blended version of Newkie Broon.


http://www.sabrain.com/index.cfm?UUID=A8BB...CEFA153488AADB1


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## Stuster (14/3/07)

kook said:


> In my opinion, most of the BJCP british styles are a bit funny. How the hell Fullers ESB and Hopback Summer Lightning are anywhere near alike beats me.
> 
> Personally, if you're brewing a bitter, ignore BJCP.



Totally agree. Basing the distinctions between the different bitter styles purely on gravity seems completely artificial to me. I agree on the basics that do make a bitter - good malt, flavourful yeast, low carbonation.  

A closer to home example of a great beer made like this, but with different hops, is the Wig and Pen Pale Ale. IIRC it's Maris Otter, Cascade hops, served on a hand pull. :chug: :super: Any Canberrans know what yeast they use? The recipe?


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## KoNG (14/3/07)

I'm halfway through a bag of GP and i like it.. although it doesnt have the character of MO, i've found a little dash of amber or the likes helps lift it a little. Styrian is definately my choice for late additions and for an all round hop i cant go past northdown, which seems to have a smokey aroma from the bag!?!

There is quite a few threads discussing the style.. including the style of the month series. No time to link them now... maybe tonight.

As for 'style' i use it for a starting point with my recipe's, but then its out the window! natural likes and dislikes for certain elements in a beer take over and it usually results in beersmith highlighting all the places that my beer is out of place for the style i chose..!!


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## Voosher (14/3/07)

I didn't read all posts in detail but I saw a couple of points mentioned that I'll agree with.

1. If you want to brew a British Ale see what they taste like and ignore BJCP guidelines.

2. My favourite distinctive hop for a British Ale (at the moment anyway) is Styrian Goldings predominantly for aroma... Think Timothy Taylors Landlord, think Deuchars IPA.


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## Mr Bond (14/3/07)

After having dicked around with this style on and off I've gotta say that one of the nicest bitters I made was as simple as 98% MO....2% choc. 35 IBU with Willamette @ 60,30,15,5 and flame out.Nice malt base with very strong hop presence that tickled my fancy very nicely ol chap.


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## Tony (14/3/07)

I will have to aggree with the "throw the guidelines out the window".

They actually say:

Comments: More evident malt and hop flavors than in a special or best bitter. Stronger versions may overlap somewhat with old ales, although strong bitters will tend to be paler and more bitter. Fullers ESB is a unique beer with a very large, complex malt profile not found in other examples; most strong bitters are fruitier and hoppier. Judges should not judge all beers in this style as if they were Fullers ESB clones. Some modern English variants are brewed exclusively with pale malt and are known as golden or summer bitters. Most bottled or kegged versions of UK-produced bitters are higher-alcohol versions of their cask (draught) products produced specifically for export. The IBU levels are often not adjusted, so the versions available in the US often do not directly correspond to their style subcategories in Britain. English pale ales are generally considered a premium, export-strength pale, bitter beer that roughly approximates a strong bitter, although reformulated for bottling (including containing higher carbonation).

Seems fullers ESB is a nice beer but does nor represent the general trend of these beers.

cheers


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## The King of Spain (14/3/07)

I have an English bloke working for me (in Oz 12 mths) who has many Uk beer tails. He realy likes his beer and can rattle off stories about many drops. He reckons the most dangerous beers in England are favoured by blokes in the country riding push bikes with cut off cardigan arms drinking ales poured with a hand type pump. They are pretty warm and seem to have all that you need for an immediate sleep

I respect his opinion (not just because he likes my ales) but his prefered commercial drop is a LCPA. He reckons that you (like here) have got to live there to appreciate the local beers on offer. 

Any London dudes heard of LCPA. Probably not.


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## Ross (14/3/07)

deaves said:


> Any London dudes heard of LCPA. Probably not.



Hi Deaves, LCPA is available in British supermarkets...

cheers Ross


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## devo (15/3/07)

I remember when starting out doing AG brews I pretty much did PA's and IPA's using nothing but Target for bittering and Fuggels/Goldings for flavour/aroma. Though not as floral or aromatic as the APA recipes I tell you what, there is nothing better than when you burp the hop flavour repeats on you and suddenly you get a wonderful hop rush.


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## Kai (15/3/07)

Re the comments on bjcp and aroma, the guidelines say moderate to none for ordinary and special, and moderately high to moderately low for ESB. It also says US varieties may be used. I don't see how that's out of line for what tangent is hoping to achieve.


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## DarkFaerytale (15/3/07)

Brauluver said:


> After having dicked around with this style on and off I've gotta say that one of the nicest bitters I made was as simple as 98% MO....2% choc. 35 IBU with Willamette @ 60,30,15,5 and flame out.Nice malt base with very strong hop presence that tickled my fancy very nicely ol chap.



hey brau do you think the same grist would work for other english hops as all addittions? eg. EKG, Fuggles,ect. 

what where your hopping rates for the later additions about .5g/L ?

cheers
-Phill


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## warrenlw63 (15/3/07)

devo said:


> there is nothing better than when you burp the hop flavour repeats on you and suddenly you get a wonderful hop rush.



:lol: Geez that's very deep Devo. Have to concur though. Dry hopping always does this for me. Have to admit to enjoying it too. Though SWMBO takes a dim view of it.  

Think it's getting high time to concoct another bitter. 

Warren -


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## devo (15/3/07)

haha never really been one to follow guidelines, only my taste. I've currently got a PA conditioning that I've dropped 5gms of Horizons in small SS tea bulbs. Looking forward to the results.


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## kook (15/3/07)

deaves said:


> I have an English bloke working for me (in Oz 12 mths) who has many Uk beer tails. He realy likes his beer and can rattle off stories about many drops. He reckons the most dangerous beers in England are favoured by blokes in the country riding push bikes with cut off cardigan arms drinking ales poured with a hand type pump. They are pretty warm and seem to have all that you need for an immediate sleep



The funny thing is, the majority of hand pulled cask beers are lower in alcohol than the lagers that the majority drink. They're intended as session pints (3%-4% ABV), something you can drink 6-8 of over a few hours and still walk (or ride) home coherently. A lot of people presume they're "stronger" and "more expensive" because they're quite often darker in colour than lagers, and have a much denser mouthfeel. Amusing thing is they're usually much cheaper!

I've only been sold a "warm" pint a couple times in summer, with pubs that had a poor cellar. It's usually sold either at cellar temp (8-12), or whatever temp the bars temprite is set to in the case of some pubs.

In my experience, generally the strongest beers sold in the UK are either sold in the supermarket/off license (high-alcohol mega lagers like Carlsberg Elephant) or at Winter Ale festivals. Thats with the exception of specialty bars/stores serving Belgian & Dutch beer.


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## kook (15/3/07)

Ross said:


> Hi Deaves, LCPA is available in British supermarkets...
> 
> cheers Ross



Yep, widely distributed though Waitrose. Usually sits next to Anchor Steam and Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.

Occasionally next to Coopers Sparkling if the shelves are sorted by country.


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## tangent (15/3/07)

I call it Lancaster because it'll be a hop plug bombing run from 60mins.

Recipe Overview
Pre-Boil Wort Volume: 46.00 l Post-Boil Wort Volume: 39.00 l
Pre-Ferment Batch Volume: 38.00 l 
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.036 SG Expected OG: 1.047 SG
Expected FG: 1.013 SG 
Expected ABV: 4.5 % Expected ABW: 3.6 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 27.9 IBU Expected Color: 22.7 EBC
Mash Efficiency: 70.0 % Approx Color:	
Boil Duration: 90.0 mins 
Fermentation Temperature: 19 degC 


Fermentables
Ingredient	Amount	%	When
UK Pale Ale Malt 6.50 kg 80.5 % In Mash/Steeped
Australian Dark Munich 0.50 kg 6.2 % In Mash/Steeped
UK Flaked Corn/Maize 0.35 kg 4.3 % In Mash/Steeped
German CaraMunich I 0.30 kg 3.7 % In Mash/Steeped
Australian Chocolate Malt 0.05 kg 0.6 % In Mash/Steeped
Sugar - Invert Sugar (Golden) Syrup 0.37 kg 4.6 % Start Of Boil


Hops
Variety	Alpha	Amount	Form	When
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops 60 Min From End
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops 30 Min From End
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops 10 Min From End
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops 5 Min From End
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops At turn off
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops Dry-Hopped

Yeast
Wyeast 1768-English Special Bitter



Comments? Suggestions?


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## Kai (15/3/07)

Where's the bitter?


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## tangent (15/3/07)

i figured with only 4.3%abv I'd better not push it too far out of whack.
I think T.D. pointed out if I were going to get it past the beer police, I'd have to call it a Pale Ale, not an ESB.


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## Kai (15/3/07)

At 1.047 I think you could handle another half-dozen IBUs easy. But, I'm sure it will be fine either way.


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## Wortgames (15/3/07)

kook said:


> The funny thing is, the majority of hand pulled cask beers are lower in alcohol than the lagers that the majority drink. They're intended as session pints (3%-4% ABV), something you can drink 6-8 of over a few hours and still walk (or ride) home coherently. A lot of people presume they're "stronger" and "more expensive" because they're quite often darker in colour than lagers, and have a much denser mouthfeel. Amusing thing is they're usually much cheaper!


You need to remember that most ale was drunk by the working classes, and in fairly large quantities. Rehydration and refreshment were the key objectives, and once you get much over about 4% it gets difficult to re-wheel a wagon or thatch a roof. The Pilsner invasion has caused its share of problems as the louts adjusted to a higher alcohol content. I used to get plastered when I first came to Oz, drinking all this tasteless icy cold liquid at 5% or more, at the same pace I used to drink pints of ale. Come to think of it, I often got plastered on ale too...



kook said:


> In my experience, generally the strongest beers sold in the UK are either sold in the supermarket/off license (high-alcohol mega lagers like Carlsberg Elephant) or at Winter Ale festivals. Thats with the exception of specialty bars/stores serving Belgian & Dutch beer.


Don't forget Carlsberg Special Brew and Tennent's Super - both really pseudo barley wines at about 9%, but mainly sold one or two at a time in brown paper bags from corner shops. The joy of sipping these particular offerings, directly from the can off an unrefrigerated shelf, is something no British suburban childhood is complete without. (That and Thunderbird, of course...)


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## tangent (15/3/07)

Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 36.2 IBU Expected Color: 22.7 EBC
Mash Efficiency: 70.0 % Approx Color:	
Boil Duration: 90.0 mins 
Fermentation Temperature: 19 degC 


Fermentables
Ingredient	Amount	%	When
UK Pale Ale Malt 6.50 kg 80.5 % In Mash/Steeped
Australian Dark Munich 0.50 kg 6.2 % In Mash/Steeped
UK Flaked Corn/Maize 0.35 kg 4.3 % In Mash/Steeped
German CaraMunich I 0.30 kg 3.7 % In Mash/Steeped
Australian Chocolate Malt 0.05 kg 0.6 % In Mash/Steeped
Sugar - Invert Sugar (Golden) Syrup 0.37 kg 4.6 % Start Of Boil


Hops
Variety	Alpha	Amount	Form	When
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops All Of Boil
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops 60 Min From End
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops 30 Min From End
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops 5 Min From End
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops At turn off
UK Golding 5.8 35 g Bagged Whole Hops Dry-Hopped


Better?


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## kook (15/3/07)

Wortgames said:


> You need to remember that most ale was drunk by the working classes, and in fairly large quantities. Rehydration and refreshment were the key objectives, and once you get much over about 4% it gets difficult to re-wheel a wagon or thatch a roof. The Pilsner invasion has caused its share of problems as the louts adjusted to a higher alcohol content. I used to get plastered when I first came to Oz, drinking all this tasteless icy cold liquid at 5% or more, at the same pace I used to drink pints of ale. Come to think of it, I often got plastered on ale too...



The crazy thing is many british people don't seem to realise that anymore. Theres this stigma around cask ale that it's "strong stuff" and "served warm", even by people who see it in the pub every day. I guess it just comes down to the fact that the majority of beer drunk there is tasteless icy cold eurolagers now. The view is a lot more prominant in major cities though.


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## Kai (15/3/07)

I like that! Right up at the sweet spot for hop emphasis with a good malt backbone.


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## tangent (15/3/07)

i can't wait to stand down wind at 60 mins


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## Mr Bond (15/3/07)

DarkFaerytale said:


> hey brau do you think the same grist would work for other english hops as all addittions? eg. EKG, Fuggles,ect.
> 
> what where your hopping rates for the later additions about .5g/L ?
> 
> ...



Can't see why not.
I've done it with fuggle(yum) , Challenger(purty good),Goldings<(not my cup of tea).
hopping rates of 1 gm per litre for flava,aroma for a good blast of hops,1/2 a gram p/l would be fine methinks.
Iv'e got a feeling that Voosher uses a similar grist when trialing a new hop,and he a brit ale tragic.


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## DarkFaerytale (15/3/07)

Cheers Brau, might have to make up a couple of small batches to try out different hop types, all in the name of beer science

-Phill


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## Wortgames (15/3/07)

kook said:


> The crazy thing is many british people don't seem to realise that anymore. Theres this stigma around cask ale that it's "strong stuff" and "served warm", even by people who see it in the pub every day. I guess it just comes down to the fact that the majority of beer drunk there is tasteless icy cold eurolagers now. The view is a lot more prominant in major cities though.


I think it's true all over the world though. There's this weird kind of black magic around alcohol, whenever anyone tells of an unusual drink they had somewhere in the world, or of a friend who home brews, it is always 'rocket fuel' and somehow more potent than any other drink known to man. Certainly I think people tend to assume that dark beers must be 'thick and strong'. I've given up trying to tell people that 'actually, Guinness isn't particularly thick OR strong'. I just nod in tired apathy now.

It's also a shame that Aussies tend to have such a narrow view of alcohol content, and that 'mid-strength' can only be some kind of ill-fated attempt to come to a new-fangled compromise - when for certain styles of beer, 3.5% has been the ideal alcohol content for centuries. Most breweries here (even the good ones) tend to stick to a pretty constant 5% for all styles, regardless of how authentic that may be.


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## Voosher (20/3/07)

Brauluver said:


> Can't see why not.
> I've done it with fuggle(yum) , Challenger(purty good),Goldings<(not my cup of tea).
> hopping rates of 1 gm per litre for flava,aroma for a good blast of hops,1/2 a gram p/l would be fine methinks.
> Iv'e got a feeling that Voosher uses a similar grist when trialing a new hop,and he a brit ale tragic.



Sorry. Just spotted this post.
Brau knows me too well sometimes.
Simple grists to see what different hops or yeasts do for a beer.
Depending on the hop, the yeast, the gravity and caprice it's generally either 99% Maris Otter and 1% Choc or all Maris Otter.
Standard hop schedule is generally equal quantities at 60m & 30m to an appropriate bitterness and 1g/l at 10m and flame out.
Works for me.


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## chillamacgilla73 (21/3/07)

Brauluver said:


> Can't see why not.
> I've done it with fuggle(yum) , Challenger(purty good),Goldings<(not my cup of tea).
> hopping rates of 1 gm per litre for flava,aroma for a good blast of hops,1/2 a gram p/l would be fine methinks.
> Iv'e got a feeling that Voosher uses a similar grist when trialing a new hop,and he a brit ale tragic.


Brauluver - a quick query re: the above hopping schedule - is that per lt boil volume or per lt final volume...the difference in volume is probably naff all that late in the boil but I have been trying to improve my english brews.
cheers


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## tangent (29/3/07)

Marmalade Ale

I tried an ESB that tasted like bitter orange marmalade

wondering if this dry pale ale style could work:

Fermentables
Ingredient	Amount	%	When
UK Pale Ale Malt 8.50 kg 90.4 % In Mash/Steeped
UK Flaked Corn/Maize 0.50 kg 5.3 % In Mash/Steeped
Sugar - Invert Sugar (Golden) Syrup 0.40 kg 4.3 % Start Of Boil


Hops
Variety	Alpha	Amount	Form	When
UK First Gold 8.0 49 g Pelletized Hops 60 Min From End
US Willamette 4.5 10 g Pelletized Hops 30 Min From End
US Willamette 4.5 10 g Pelletized Hops 15 Min From End
US Willamette 4.5 10 g Pelletized Hops At turn off


Other Ingredients
Ingredient	Amount	When


Yeast
Wyeast 1968-London ESB Ale


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## warrenlw63 (29/3/07)

tangent said:


> Marmalade Ale
> 
> I tried an ESB that tasted like bitter orange marmalade



Tangent

I get these notes when I use a lot of Styrian Goldings late. Might be worth a thought. In fact I plan to make a bitter in a few weeks that will be all NZ Styrian Golding flowers and late hopped with Styrian Goldings plugs.

Hopefully the "marmalade" will run free. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## bconnery (29/3/07)

I've made a belgian red beer with real bitter oranges. This mighn't seem on topic but when one of the guys at a case swap tasted my english bitter done with progress for bittering and first gold for flavour he assumed it was another one of my fruit beers.... 

I'd consider using some of the willimatte for bittering and save some of the first gold for flavour to get more of that taste. That's possibly because I like the hop so much though...


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## tangent (29/3/07)

good idea bconnery


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## Voosher (29/3/07)

tangent said:


> Marmalade Ale
> 
> I tried an ESB that tasted like bitter orange marmalade



My top Marmalade hops are:
Styrian Goldings
Challenger
Target
Willamette

I'm with Warren on this one - Styrians give a gentle but distinctive marmalade tone and the current harvest are awesome.
I have to do an all Styrian/simple malt ale
:chug:


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## Guest Lurker (29/3/07)

Maybe vanilla marmalade from SG, but definitely marmalade from challenger.


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## /// (29/3/07)

Gotta say I am seriously disappointed at the poor hopping at some of the recipes.

English brewers have hop backs and whirlpools for a reason. whence you boil the crap out of a beer you pump to a whirlpool/hopback and add the flavour/aroma hops ans whizz it round lots.

Any hops added prior is simply the way you would hop a lager. As my MASTER Bass brewer has thought me, Late Hops mean LATE - they are not boiled!

Boil, shut your heat off and grab a big spoon dunk int hops and stir, its the only way to get proper flavour profiles as my experience shows!

Are there any Stones Bitter fans out there??? I have a grist book from Bass that speaks volumes... ;-p

Scotty


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## PostModern (29/3/07)

I'm going to back up Scotty on this one. The IPA I'm drinking now (although not a bitter, sure) had 2 hop additions only. One at 60 mins to bitter (quite assertively) and another, large addition of EKG after flame-out in the whirlpool. There is so much hop flavour and aroma I can taste it a good 5 mins after finishing a pint. This beer really opened my eyes to whirlpool hopping! 

Whatever you do, don't do this in your comp brews!!


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## Ross (30/3/07)

PostModern said:


> Whatever you do, don't do this in your comp brews!!



It's exactly how i do my english bitters - in the kettle, 10 mins after flame out.
Why not in the comp brews PostModern? Or is that why my bitters have never done well in comps  

cheers Ross


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## Mr Bond (30/3/07)

chillamacgilla73 said:


> Brauluver - a quick query re: the above hopping schedule - is that per lt boil volume or per lt final volume...the difference in volume is probably naff all that late in the boil but I have been trying to improve my english brews.
> cheers



Final Volume(ie volume into fermenter)


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## warrenlw63 (30/3/07)

/// said:


> English brewers have hop backs and whirlpools for a reason. whence you boil the crap out of a beer you pump to a whirlpool/hopback and add the flavour/aroma hops ans whizz it round lots.



Hear ya Scotty! :beerbang: 

Hopback be thy friend. For me the aroma is good OTOH the hop flavour is out of this world. B) 

Warren -


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## tangent (30/3/07)

I didn't consider flame-out hopping and keg hopping to be boiling.
Thanks for the tip on Challenger.


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## PostModern (30/3/07)

Ross said:


> Why not in the comp brews PostModern?



My comment had something to do with bad sportsmanship.  My limited experience with the whirlpool hop is very favourable.


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## tangent (31/3/07)

FFS why didn't someone tell me about Challenger before!?
Awesome!
3x 1st times today.
1st Challenger experience :super: 
1st Golden Promise (man that's so light in colour!)
1st time I've had a few beers with Dr.Gonzo and not crashed and burned :lol:


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