# Cans Expired In 2005?



## ozshots (3/1/10)

A friend of mine has abandoned the golden craft of homebrewing couple of years ago.

He brought me his old stocks of cans, expired in 2005. Coopers Stout, Brewiser wheat - all good stuff.
I think the yeast has gone, but about the goo? 

Do you think it worth trying to put a fresh yeast and give it a go?


----------



## Cube (3/1/10)

The only thing I would do with it would be a toucan mate with fresh yeast x two packs. Expect the worst and appreciate anything drinkable  I wouldn't mix anything that old with a new can or spend $$ on LDME etc.


----------



## manticle (3/1/10)

If I had several fermenters and wasn't relying on it for beer I'd try it out with low expectation.

A little contrary to cube's advice I'd actually boil one or 2 kits, and add a touch of malt extract (maybe 500g) and a touch of dex (maybe 250 - 500g) and add flavouring hops.

If you only have one fermenter just spend the extra on some new kits. Malt extract does go stale. I'd certainly leave the yeast behind (or boil it up to add extra nutrients).


----------



## j1gsaw (3/1/10)

:icon_vomit: :icon_vomit: x100


----------



## ozshots (3/1/10)

manticle said:


> If you only have one fermenter just spend the extra. Malt extract does go stale.



Ups, he's got Coopers BE2 as well, hard as rock. This what I was going to use...
Throwaway?

PS. I have 3 fermenters, this is why I was considering the experiment... I still will be brewing the good stuff.


----------



## manticle (3/1/10)

Like I said - if you're expectations aren't high and you're prepared to spend the time then why not try it? I'd use the be2 to feed the garden bed though.

I don't think it will make good beer but it's better than dying wondering.


----------



## bum (3/1/10)

If you can spare the fermenter and don't care if (probably when) it goes south then I can't see a good reason not to use them just to see how it goes. As you say though the yeast won't be worth testing out.

The BE2 being hard won't be a problem in and of itself. I've heard of people using new boxes that were like this without detrimental effect. Not saying the age won't be a problem of course.

Let us know how it goes if you do put it down.


----------



## j1gsaw (3/1/10)

Dont understand why you would even consider using them.. could/would make you sick.
For the cost of a new can, i sure wouldnt risk having to sit on the dunny spraying like a pelican.


----------



## ozshots (3/1/10)

j1gsaw said:


> Dont understand why you would even consider using them.. could/would make you sick.
> For the cost of a new can, i sure wouldnt risk having to sit on the dunny spraying like a pelican.



LOL
you made my day mate


----------



## manticle (3/1/10)

j1gsaw said:


> Dont understand why you would even consider using them.. could/would make you sick.
> For the cost of a new can, i sure wouldnt risk having to sit on the dunny spraying like a pelican.




A kit tin is not like a tin of tuna or a tub of yoghurt. When you open the tin it should be immediately obvious if there's been any microbiological growth (unlikely).

For my money, I'd prefer fresh ingredients every time but the fact that the question has been posed means the OP is curious. Best way to satisfy that curiosity is to give it a shot knowing the results will probably be rubbish.

If you can get salmonella from an expired kit then it's the first I've heard of it.

Obviously I do not constitute medical advice. When I worked in kitchens the motto was 'if in doubt throw it out'. I only wish some of the people I worked with had adhered to that a little more strictly.

Just having a quick squiz around the net for any decent information on this. The closest I found was this forum post quoting an article on canning unfermented wort for yeast starters. To sum up - while bacteria can grow and survive in unfernmented wort, the boiling process will kill any disease causing micro-organism. It will also kill botulism toxins (but not necessarily other toxins produced prior to boiling).

from here: http://www.brew-monkey.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=862 It's a little bit could be/ couldn't be though.

Maybe try emailing Coopers and asking specifically about food poirsoning as this topic does come up regularly so it would be good to get some real information. 

If their advice is ok then I'd suggest if you are curious enough proceed with caution - open and smell the tin first. If you think it's ok boil it for 60 minutes. 

If the indecision is too much use it as a doorstop.

Probably not worth the fuss in the end.


----------



## glaab (3/1/10)

I think it'll be alright but the color might be darker than usual. The cans that is, not the BE.


----------



## manticle (3/1/10)

I've just emailed coopers to find out about any associated disease causing micro-organisms. Will update if and when they reply.


----------



## Kai (3/1/10)

You may, and it's a long shot, get a little mould or bacterial growth on the inside top lid of the can where condensation forms during storage. 

However, there are more fundamental reasons not to brew with it. The sky is blue, water is wet and old extract tastes like rubbish.

.


----------



## riverside (3/1/10)

Kai said:


> You may, and it's a long shot, get a little mould or bacterial growth on the inside top lid of the can where condensation forms during storage.
> 
> However, there are more fundamental reasons not to brew with it. The sky is blue, water is wet and old extract tastes like rubbish.
> 
> .




IMO your gamer than Ned Kelly if you want to drink that shyte ! :icon_drool2: Grab yourself a 20 and head down to your LHB.


----------



## Nick JD (3/1/10)

I've never opened a rotten can of anything, ever. The best it can taste is like kit beer, the worst ... like kit beer!


----------



## glaab (3/1/10)

Nick JD said:


> I've never opened a rotten can of anything, ever. The best it can taste is like kit beer, the worst ... like kit beer!



that's what I reckon, I've eaten tinned peaches over 10 years old, what's the diff?


----------



## bowser (4/1/10)

I made a coopers pale ale kit which was two years out of date for my first brew, it came with the second haned fermenter etc that i bought.

The beer ended up being the worst smelling and tasting thing ever, it smelt like sh#t


----------



## wynnum1 (4/1/10)

Mix it all together and make a stout give it all a good boil had a ten year old can the flavour was much stronger but not bad


----------



## QldKev (4/1/10)

I thought this forum was to promote making decent beers? Throw the shit out and get the freshest kit you can find. Everyone knows that a kit even half way through it's use by period is going to produce a poorer beer than a fresh one.

QldKev


----------



## Peteoz77 (4/1/10)

OK, So here's the GO. Canned kits are marked for sale within 2 YEARS.

I'm no microbiologist, but I reckon if there were no bugs in the can for 2 years.. there can't be in there after 4 years or even 14 years for that matter.

As glaab says, 10 year old peaches are fantastic, why not wort? I work in a home brew shop, and we discount kits that are expired, and they ALWAYS sell quickly.. with never a complaint.

I say 100% BREW IT! I think it will most likely make decent beer, and it won't hurt you in any way.

Let us know how it turns out.

Actualy, but a new kit exactly the same and brew it at the same time. Then taste test them side by side....

Or Not....


----------



## manticle (4/1/10)

QldKev said:


> I thought this forum was to promote making decent beers? Throw the shit out and get the freshest kit you can find. Everyone knows that a kit even half way through it's use by period is going to produce a poorer beer than a fresh one.
> 
> QldKev



It's also about learning what makes good beer and why. People often ask this question so if there's no health risk then why not find out? If the beer is woeful then the idea of buying fresh ingredients will be at the forefront of their minds from then on.

If people continually tell you that stale extract tastes a particular way then why not find out - a little bit like deliberately exposing yourself to off flavours and infections can help gain an understanding of beer faults.


Obviously if there's a helath risk then the above is entirely irrelevant.


----------



## Peteoz77 (4/1/10)

Oh Yeah.. DEFINITELY use a fresh yeast!


----------



## manticle (4/1/10)

Just received a response from the Coopers brewery so to put to rest fears of stomach clutching diarrhea inducing botulinic ebola terror:

From: andrew ***** [mailto:[email protected]***.com] 
Sent: Sunday, 3 January 2010 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Homies: Micro-organisms in expired tins and food safety



_Hi,

I frequent a homebrew forum and the question often comes up about using expired tins.

While I'm well aware that expired tins will likely produce a very inferior darker 'twangy' kit beer and wouldn't use or recommend using them on this basis, I'm unaware of which (if any) disease causing micro-organisms can be associated with out of date beer kits.

Are you able to provide me with any information on this?

Thankyou very much

Andrew_


RE: Homies: Micro-organisms in expired tins and food safety‏
From: Frank Akers ([email protected]) 
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2010 2:54:34 AM 
To: andrew **** ([email protected]****.com) 

_Hello Andrew,



The contents of the can should still be safe to use for years after the Best Before has expired. But as you say, it will produce a very inferior beer so why bother?



Cheers, 



Frank Akers

Home Brew Advisor

Coopers Brewery

Adelaide, SA_



Toll free 1300 654 455







http://www.coopers.com.au


----------



## bum (4/1/10)

Nice work, Manticle.


----------



## Kai (4/1/10)

Peteoz77 said:


> OK, So here's the GO. Canned kits are marked for sale within 2 YEARS.
> 
> I'm no microbiologist, but I reckon if there were no bugs in the can for 2 years.. there can't be in there after 4 years or even 14 years for that matter.
> 
> ...



Three thoughts:

1. I've seen swollen cans of extract before which implies microbial growth but you're right that micro stability is not really a big reason to avoid old cans.
2. Discounted kits sell quickly with no complaint because there is still a proportion of homebrewers out there who brew to save a buck
3. Peaches ain't wort.


----------



## rendo (4/1/10)

AlexA,

I initially thought NO WAY, but after reading all the posts from the guys....YOU GOTTA DO IT!!!

Get some fresh yeast and bung it on. I would have never have tried a toucan or several other things (eg brewing in winter, which makes the BEST lagers) if it wasnt for AHB.....so just DO IT 

Then let us know how shyte it is...or NOT...

(still, spraying like a pelican had me in a hysterics....still laughing about it)


----------



## riverside (4/1/10)

QldKev said:


> I thought this forum was to promote making decent beers? Throw the shit out and get the freshest kit you can find. Everyone knows that a kit even half way through it's use by period is going to produce a poorer beer than a fresh one.
> 
> QldKev




+1


----------



## glaab (5/1/10)

there's some on here that think if it's their opinion then it is a fact. Darren said yesterday that anyone who uses US05 is lazy and has no perception of taste. That might be his opinion but it's hardly a fact. This forum is to promote making decent beers? hopefully that's a fact. You can't make decent beer from a can expired by 4yrs might, possibly, be a fact but "Peaches aint wort" is hardly proof. I've used a can of Coopers Traditional Bitter that was expired by a few months and it was fine. They were selling them at BigW
for $5 each because it is a deleted line now, I bought 4 and gave 2 away. The only comments that came back were that it was darker and more bitter than the usual cans of goo they bought[Coopers Lager]. A fresh can of that stuff was dark and bitter anyway. Now all go and throw out your S05 <_<


----------



## ozshots (5/1/10)

Jeez guys,

curiosity killed the cat... I hope this won't happens to me  

I think I will give it a try one day, just to see what happens...

Since food poisoning is unlikely, I should be able to tell you the story


----------



## manticle (5/1/10)

See above email from Coopers mate.

Unlikely you'll make superb beer but you won't die.


----------



## Kai (7/1/10)

glaab said:


> there's some on here that think if it's their opinion then it is a fact. Darren said yesterday that anyone who uses US05 is lazy and has no perception of taste. That might be his opinion but it's hardly a fact. This forum is to promote making decent beers? hopefully that's a fact. You can't make decent beer from a can expired by 4yrs might, possibly, be a fact but "Peaches aint wort" is hardly proof. I've used a can of Coopers Traditional Bitter that was expired by a few months and it was fine. They were selling them at BigW
> for $5 each because it is a deleted line now, I bought 4 and gave 2 away. The only comments that came back were that it was darker and more bitter than the usual cans of goo they bought[Coopers Lager]. A fresh can of that stuff was dark and bitter anyway. Now all go and throw out your S05 <_<



I'm sorry, it's my opinion that you're unlikely to make a good beer from a really old can of extract.

It's a fact that peaches ain't wort though. They age in fundamentally different ways because they are fundamentally different (canned) things.

It was a silly comparison in the first place (in my opinion).


----------



## LLoyd (8/1/10)

Kai said:


> I'm sorry, it's my opinion that you're unlikely to make a good beer from a really old can of extract.
> 
> It's a fact that peaches ain't wort though. They age in fundamentally different ways because they are fundamentally different (canned) things.
> 
> It was a silly comparison in the first place (in my opinion).



Yeah just cos there's no (or little) microbiological risk does not make it a good beer...
Here's my "Yeah but" though  ...
One/ I love a real experiment that has a real risk of not matching my hypothosis
Two/ I'm that broke at the moment that not only am I planning a non-AG brew this weekend I would happily accept a freebie tin of five year old kit goo.....


----------



## ozshots (20/12/10)

Nearly a year later I'd remebered to post the results of experiment with the old beer kits...

The beer turned out to be much darker comared to original. Apart from the unexpected color, it was nice!
Not outstanding, but perfectly drinkable.


----------



## Nevalicious (20/12/10)

AlexA said:


> Nearly a year later I'd remebered to post the results of experiment with the old beer kits...
> 
> The beer turned out to be much darker comared to original. Apart from the unexpected color, it was nice!
> Not outstanding, but perfectly drinkable.




So Alex, I missed this thread at the start of the year, but reading through it got me curious... 

So, it turned out nice huh??

What'd you end up doing with the tins...?? Straight up cheapo toucan or addtional hops/LDM etc... Obviously fresh yeast yeah. 

Cheers


----------



## Boondy (21/12/10)

My two bobs worth: I recently got back in to brewing after year or two off. I have quite a few old kits, and started out using them up first. I tried to freshen them up with some grain (mainly crystal) and fresh hops. Bottom line is that since I stopped using the old kits and got back into extract brewing with fresh ingredients, my beers have been a heap better. The old kits produced reasonable beer with the 'freshen up', and I didn't get crook or anything like that, but it was still not a patch on fresh extract brewing. So in the end I still have some out of date kits that just keep on getting older. Might brew them up for a party or something!


----------



## Nevalicious (21/12/10)

Boondy said:


> My two bobs worth: I recently got back in to brewing after year or two off. I have quite a few old kits, and started out using them up first. I tried to freshen them up with some grain (mainly crystal) and fresh hops. Bottom line is that since I stopped using the old kits and got back into extract brewing with fresh ingredients, my beers have been a heap better. The old kits produced reasonable beer with the 'freshen up', and I didn't get crook or anything like that, but it was still not a patch on fresh extract brewing. So in the end I still have some out of date kits that just keep on getting older. Might brew them up for a party or something!



Wait a few more years then make them up :lol:


----------



## Boondy (21/12/10)

Good thinking, Nev....and maybe invite the outlaws around to do the job on them....


----------



## Nevalicious (21/12/10)

Boondy said:


> Good thinking, Nev....and maybe invite the outlaws around to do the job on them....




Yeah, and my Brother in law. He will drink just about anything!!


----------



## Boondy (21/12/10)

maybe your need is greater than mine.... 
I reckon I might have one that expired in 2002 that I might be able to send you........ for a modest fee :icon_chickcheers: 
Oh, do you reckon we're getting a little off topic :icon_offtopic:


----------

