# Mashing - Water or Grain in first?



## r055c0 (28/1/14)

Was watching a couple of clips on youtube over the weekend, quite a few of them (all american) showed the brewers filling thier mash tuns with water and then adding the grain to the water. 

I've always done it the other way around, assuming this will bring the temperature of the mash down to your target without overheating the grain.

Just wondering what others do and why. Does it make a difference?


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## fcmcg (28/1/14)

ive always done water then grain.. and stir like a bastard....i also have a herms...


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (28/1/14)

I've done both, but generally will go water first, grain 2nd. I hit my mash temp spot on yesterday, so no issue for me.

Especially if I add grain gradually - i.e. add a quarter, stir in, get rid of doughballs, then repeat 4 times. Tends to be a quicker mash in for me.

Esky is my mash tun.


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## mckenry (28/1/14)

Water first. So much easier for me. Adding water to the grain creates dough balls. Obviously the water/grain ratio is nothing/heaps at first so ALL the water is absorbed early on making it harder to mix. With all your water ready a lot of grain can be added at once without a problem.


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## TimT (28/1/14)

Water first.

A problem adding grain first would surely be - wouldn't you run the risk of burning the grain on the bottom?


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## mxd (28/1/14)

water then grain, I'm HERMS and heat the strike water up in the MLT


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## TidalPete (28/1/14)

Grain first because I underlet after heating up the liquor in the HLT overnight via a timer.
I don't get dough balls. 4-vessel HERMS here.


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## manticle (28/1/14)

Doesn't matter. I've done both. Most often I add some water, some grain, some water, etc.


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## TimT (28/1/14)

_I've always done it the other way around, assuming this will bring the temperature of the mash down to your target without overheating the grain._

Somewhere I think on the Grain and Grape website they advise to heat the water to 77 degrees celsius - then when you add the grain the temp will drop to 68 degrees. Seems to work, so I generally follow that principle ....!


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## RelaxedBrewer (28/1/14)

At the last swap meet I was introduced to the under letting method and have not looked back.

So much easier than water then grain that I had been doing every AG brew. Also no dough balls and no stirring required.


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## idzy (28/1/14)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> At the last swap meet I was introduced to the under letting method and have not looked back.
> 
> So much easier than water then grain that I had been doing every AG brew. Also no dough balls and no stirring required.


Was at the same swap and have to agree. We mashed in a lot of grain that day.

For me personally, followed the advice from the guy I bought the system off (Gava) and have always underlet (grain first).


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## mckenry (28/1/14)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> At the last swap meet I was introduced to the under letting method and have not looked back.
> 
> So much easier than water then grain that I had been doing every AG brew. Also no dough balls and no stirring required.


Its a good way IF your system allows it. I have a 3V herms. I heat the strike water, using the HERMS from the HLT. The HLT water then becomes the sparge water. If I was to use the HLT water to strike with, I'd have to work out losses through the pipes, then heat another batch of sparge water. Possible, but too much effort as I have both the HLT and MLT at the right temp when I wake up, using a timer.
I do underlet for sparging though. Thats a winner for keeping a good grainbed.

All depends on your setup.


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## Goose (28/1/14)

1 inch of water above the false bottom first

then grain

then water to 1 inch above the surface of the grain bed. stir, then allow to settle before recirc on RIMS.

no need to measure water, just grain bill.....


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## QldKev (28/1/14)

TidalPete said:


> Grain first because I underlet after heating up the liquor in the HLT overnight via a timer.
> I don't get dough balls. 4-vessel HERMS here.



Same here, underletting is the only way.


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## Goose (28/1/14)

QldKev said:


> Same here, underletting is the only way.


forgot to add, yes I also underlet after adding grain till I reach equilibrium with HLT level. I depending on grain bill I have to pump in balance to 1" above grain bed, cant use gravity for full water charge usually because HLT and mash tun are at the same level. Slight improvement to design would be to raise the HLT a bit. :huh:


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## dicko (28/1/14)

Underlet here or at least I always used to underlet in my 3v system.

I now have a BM and the operational method is to have the water in the equipment and then pour the grain into the malt pipe.
It is a pain in the arse to have to stir dough balls from the mash.

Mmmmm, I wonder if I could put the grain in the malt pipe and fit it into the BM and then poor the water into the machine down the side,
Probably too much trouble to get the volumes correct.....thinking, thinking.


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## Black Devil Dog (28/1/14)

I'd never heard the term "underlet" before this thread. Is this something usually done on 3-4v systems? Please tell me more.............

I BIAB in a 40l Crownie and add grain to water..


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## hsb (28/1/14)

I was always taught to add grain to water, but no rules. 
Plus is it preheats your mash tun and less dough balls. 

Underletting is just filling with water from your down belows.


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## dicko (28/1/14)

Black Devil Dog said:


> I'd never heard the term "underlet" before this thread. Is this something usually done on 3-4v systems? Please tell me more.............
> 
> I BIAB in a 40l Crownie and add grain to water..


Underletting works well with a conventional mash tun and HLT.
With the new things like Herms and Rims it means the water and mash tun can all be heated together by heating the water directly by the herms etc in the tun. This takes away the need for adjusting strike water temp prior to adding to the mash tun.
Strike temp adjustment is a skill that is slowly slipping out of use with herms rims BMs etc.

I would imagine with biab that you will still need to calculate strike temp unless your mash tun / kettle is heated in which case you could add the water to the grain and then heat to achieve mash temps required.
The underlet method was for a conventional mash tun, originally.


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## Goose (28/1/14)

dicko said:


> Underlet here or at least I always used to underlet in my 3v system.
> 
> I now have a BM and the operational method is to have the water in the equipment and then pour the grain into the malt pipe.
> It is a pain in the arse to have to stir dough balls from the mash.
> ...



yes you will get doughballs if your strikewater is too high a temperature. The thermal mass of my system requires me to heat water to 14 deg above mash target if I go straight for mash target. water then has to be heated to 79 deg C for most of my brews and I do get doughballs which are easily broken up using a mega mash paddle. But agree its a pain. To avoid doughballs I sometimes mash in lower by 10-15 degrees then raise the mash temp to target, but it takes longer.


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## wombil (28/1/14)

WTF is,"Filling with water from your down belows"?
I biab in a 60 litre esky.Put my square of poly voille in then ,8 to 10 Kg grain then,40 litres of water by bucket.
Mixes easily with no dough balls.
Just my way and I find that it mixes easily.


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## fletcher (28/1/14)

i throw the water and grain in at the same time. 










...just kidding, thought i'd sound tough if i said that.

i BIAB so i heat my water to strike, and then dump the grain in and give it a good swoosh around and confirm temps. then get a beer and wait my 90 minutes.


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## dicko (28/1/14)

Goose said:


> yes you will get doughballs if your strikewater is too high a temperature. The thermal mass of my system requires me to heat water to 14 deg above mash target if I go straight for mash target. water then has to be heated to 79 deg C for most of my brews and I do get doughballs which are easily broken up using a mega mash paddle. But agree its a pain. To avoid doughballs I sometimes mash in lower by 10-15 degrees then raise the mash temp to target, but it takes longer.


As I said in the post above, the skills of strike water temp are all but gone with equipment these days.
You are correct about the high temp, causing dough balls but there is a little more involved than that, mainly with starch conversion temps varying throughout the mash.
It was observed by many home brewers with reference from some pro brewers that these dough balls didn't form or were a lot more controllable in a mash system WITHOUT any temp control methods for mash temp adjustment when the grain was underlet.

If anyone goes back in history on this forum there will be arguments for and against underletting from ten or more years ago with the same argument of "if you stir the mash then you will help to eliminate dough balls" presenting itself.
If anyone has a standard non heated mash tun and doughs in conventionally then, try underletting and report back.


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## QldKev (28/1/14)

wombil said:


> WTF is,"Filling with water from your down belows"?
> I biab in a 60 litre esky.Put my square of poly voille in then ,8 to 10 Kg grain then,40 litres of water by bucket.
> Mixes easily with no dough balls.
> Just my way and I find that it mixes easily.



underletting is filling your mash tun from the drain tap. So then the water fills via your false bottom/braid from the bottom up and it soaks up through the grain. It results in no dough balls, I don't even bother stirring the mash and 100% no dough balls on my system doing it this way. It makes my brew day that little bit easier.

Have to admit with dicko about strike temps. I strike all beers (unless doing an acid rest for a wheat) at the same temperature, regardless of the grain bill. I aim for hitting 53c for a 55c step. The HERMS fixes it up pretty quickly, and you can gain 2c a lot quicker than you can loose it.


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## wombil (28/1/14)

Thanks Kev,had me baffled for a while.


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## Camo6 (28/1/14)

QldKev said:


> underletting is filling your mash tun from the drain tap. So then the water fills via your false bottom/braid from the bottom up and it soaks up through the grain. It results in no dough balls, I don't even bother stirring the mash and 100% no dough balls on my system doing it this way. It makes my brew day that little bit easier.
> 
> Have to admit with dicko about strike temps. I strike all beers (unless doing an acid rest for a wheat) at the same temperature, regardless of the grain bill. I aim for hitting 53c for a 55c step. The HERMS fixes it up pretty quickly, and you can gain 2c a lot quicker than you can loose it.


So Kev you add your grain to MT, set your HLT to 53*c, underlet, then start recircing HX at 55*c?

Do those of you who underlet find an increase in final wort clarity? Sounds like this step would eliminate initial stirring of the mash and would help preset the mash bed.


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## QldKev (28/1/14)

Camo6 said:


> So Kev you add your grain to MT, set your HLT to 53*c, underlet, then start recircing HX at 55*c?
> 
> Do those of you who underlet find an increase in final wort clarity? Sounds like this step would eliminate initial stirring of the mash and would help preset the mash bed.


I use 58c on my system. That drops to around 53c using my water:grain ratio and my mashtun density. BUT in the real world the number varies as I could be doing a 56L batch all the way through to a 112L batch. I find it does not actually vary that much as with the smaller batch you have less water, but less grain. The loss to the the tun is the same, but the HERMS worries about that.

I find no difference in clarity. I recirculate the entire mash duration, and really it doesn't take that long to clarify the wort. It does eliminate the initial stir., but I do still stir once I have drained and then added my batch sparge water. Not really sure if it help set a better mash bed. I've always done it and never had an issue on this system with stuck mashes.


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## Goose (28/1/14)

> It was observed by many home brewers with reference from some pro brewers that these dough balls didn't form or were a lot more controllable in a mash system WITHOUT any temp control methods for mash temp adjustment when the grain was underlet.


ok, though I am still getting doughballs with water at 78-79 strike, despite underletting. When doing a protein rest or a lower mash in temperature followed by a rise to target, 10 deg lower, I do not have any doughball issue. Again, they are easily broken by my beast of a mash paddle. My observation only...


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## DU99 (28/1/14)

underletting can you do it for BIAB.


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## fletcher (28/1/14)

DU99 said:


> underletting can you do it for BIAB.


i'm sure you could if you had a way of adding water slowly. it'd maybe seem clunky but i'm sure could be done. you might have to heat the water in a separate vessel though to slowly let into the bottom of your kettle?


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## Camo6 (28/1/14)

QldKev said:


> I use 58c on my system. That drops to around 53c using my water:grain ratio and my mashtun density. BUT in the real world the number varies as I could be doing a 56L batch all the way through to a 112L batch. I find it does not actually vary that much as with the smaller batch you have less water, but less grain. The loss to the the tun is the same, but the HERMS worries about that.
> 
> I find no difference in clarity. I recirculate the entire mash duration, and really it doesn't take that long to clarify the wort. It does eliminate the initial stir., but I do still stir once I have drained and then added my batch sparge water. Not really sure if it help set a better mash bed. I've always done it and never had an issue on this system with stuck mashes.


I guess it wouldn't make much difference to clarity when you're recircing for the mash anyway. Good point.

I'd be keen to try underletting. I've always added grain to the water as I like to prevent any dough balls and avoid disturbing the FB as I dough-in. I always seem to get a fair bit of grain past the FB and imagine I'd get less when the weight of the grain bed is holding it down from the onset.


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## Back Yard Brewer (28/1/14)

Water to grain.... underlet as well


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## Yob (28/1/14)

Underlet.. Dont even use a mash paddle these days.. One other thing I dont have to clean.

Like kev, I mash in low and let the HEX sort I out, im usually spot on with temps though, having been a grain to water person for a while ive got that sorted, I do go right from HLT to MT and then fire up the HEX though so a little different to others and how they operate their systems.


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## Screwtop (28/1/14)

Opinions are like arseholes, every brewer has one!

Reasons are different! I used to underlet but had to change my process due to constant higher FG's than required.

1. I add strike water to the mash tun at 77C. 

Why - 1 Because I want the tun and all equipment at a temp about 4°C above mash temp before adding grain. After adding the 77°C strike water and stirring I wait until the tun and equipment (HERMS, HEX,pump etc) all equalises to just above required mash temp.

Why - 2 When I used to underlet the required temp of strike water was 77°C to achieve a mash temp of 66°C after temp was absorbed by the tun, and grain, however some conversion and denaturing was occuring at the higher temps during the time it was taking for the temp to drop to mash temp. This produced less fermentable wort than I required.

Adopt whatever process produces the results you want as the brewer!


Screwy


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## Goose (28/1/14)

> Why - 2 When I used to underlet the required temp of strike water was 77°C to achieve a mash temp of 66°C after temp was absorbed by the tun, and grain, however some conversion and denaturing was occuring at the higher temps during the time it was taking for the temp to drop to mash temp. This produced less fermentable wort than I required


An excellent point, which I debated with a local brewmaster who assured me that enzyme denaturing did not occur instantly and in the time the cooling occurs to mash target most enzymes were preserved, hence your strikewater could be higher than enzyme denaturing temperature and you would still be safe.

For me the jury is still out on this one.


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## pist (28/1/14)

dicko said:


> Underletting works well with a conventional mash tun and HLT.
> With the new things like Herms and Rims it means the water and mash tun can all be heated together by heating the water directly by the herms etc in the tun. This takes away the need for adjusting strike water temp prior to adding to the mash tun.
> Strike temp adjustment is a skill that is slowly slipping out of use with herms rims BMs etc.
> 
> ...


Yep biab does still require calculation of strike temp. I always go water then grain once up to strike temp. I would imagine you would end up with huge clumps of doughballs doing it the other way round


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## MartinOC (28/1/14)

Having had 10 years to think about this..........

My plan for the new rig is to heat my HLT to a few deg. above strike & dump it into the MLT to pre-heat it. Then pump back to the HLT for a quick heat-injecion.

Grain into the MLT (dry), then under-let from the HLT (now heated back to strike). Turn the H/X & pump on. 

No dough balls & everything is both hunky & dory.

"No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy........" :unsure:


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## dicko (29/1/14)

When I had my 3v herms I would have the strike water circulating at dough in temp through the mash tun and slowly tip the grain in. 
( the reverse of underletting)
This was reasonably successful and caused very few dough balls. 
Screwy's point 2 re fermentability was noted in my system as well as my herms improved the fermentability of the wort.
The same goes for a BM which has full control of the strike process.

Underletting with a standard mash tun helps to prevent dough balls, I should add, grist and temperature dependant.


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## Screwtop (29/1/14)

Screwtop said:


> Why - 2 When I used to underlet the required temp of strike water was 77°C to achieve a mash temp of 66°C after temp was absorbed by the tun, and grain, however some conversion and denaturing was occuring at the higher temps during the time it was taking for the temp to drop to mash temp. This produced less fermentable wort than I required.





Goose said:


> An excellent point, which I debated with a local brewmaster who assured me that enzyme denaturing did not occur instantly and in the time the cooling occurs to mash target most enzymes were preserved, hence your strikewater could be higher than enzyme denaturing temperature and you would still be safe.
> 
> For me the jury is still out on this one.


 

Agreed, I suspected limited denaturing of Beta was part of the result as I found it hard to produce dry beers even though mash saccharification temps were low and for 90 minutes. The major problem was more due to some Alpha conversion occurring in highly modified malts during the time required for the mash to cool to saccharification temp. Changing the process so that temp was just above the required sacch temp before adding grist resulted in drier beers, that was the result I was after. Brewing is all about results, not numbers on thermometers.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## MaltyHops (29/1/14)

Screwtop said:


> Why - 2 When I used to underlet the required temp of strike water was 77°C to achieve a mash temp of 66°C after temp was absorbed by the tun, and grain, however some conversion and denaturing was occuring at the higher temps during the time it was taking for the temp to drop to mash temp. This produced less fermentable wort than I required.





dicko said:


> Screwy's point 2 re fermentability was noted in my system as well as my herms improved the fermentability of the wort.
> The same goes for a BM which has full control of the strike process.


Did you guys stir the mash after underletting? If not, I can see the mash at the bottom getting to and staying at the strike temperature for a while before equalising with mash at the top.


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## dicko (29/1/14)

I used to stir mine during underletting and at the beginning of the mash to prevent the stratification of temps that will occur.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (29/1/14)

Screwtop said:


> Agreed, I suspected limited denaturing of Beta was part of the result as I found it hard to produce dry beers even though mash saccharification temps were low and for 90 minutes. The major problem was more due to some Alpha conversion occurring in highly modified malts during the time required for the mash to cool to saccharification temp. Changing the process so that temp was just above the required sacch temp before adding grist resulted in drier beers, that was the result I was after. Brewing is all about results, not numbers on thermometers.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy


Maybe underlet at a lower temp and ramp up? Not sure.

I'm in the mash in, calc mash in temp. Brewmate does it, and on Monday, I hit my temps perfectly. I was surprised that I didn't lose any heat during a 90 minute mash in my esky, despite the headspace.

I have in the past, with less reliable equipment (BIAB on the stovetop), often been over and had to quickly add cold water to adjust down. Did end up with higher FG using that. So I under cooked the strike water and had a boiled kettle (81 degrees IIRC) and adjusted up. Problem fixed.


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## mje1980 (29/1/14)

Dump the strike water on top of the grain and use my huge forearms, biceps and a chefs whisk and no problems in about one minute. I use an esky tun.


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## Spiesy (29/1/14)

Water first. Then grain.


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## JaseH (29/1/14)

I have a 3V without HERMS/RIMS. I pre-heat the mash tun by pouring in 1 - 1.5l of boiling water, then throw in the grain(this amount of boiling water settles under the false bottom), then underlet with the rest of the strike water. My strike water is generally around 72C to get a target temp around 65-66C. I stir the mash well once my desired strike amount is in, then check the temp in a few places with a digital probe. I like to stir it well because even then I usually get around 1C or more variation in temp for various parts of the mash. I take an average and adjust if needed by adding cold/hot water.


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