# Herms - Excessively Looong Ramp Time



## Sully (3/10/09)

Guys,

I am brewing now as I type and it has taken at least 1.5hrs to ramp from protein rest to sacc rest and I still cannot reach target temp. 

This happened last brew and its really f*cking me off to say the least.

OK basically generic HERMS setup,

HE: 11.5L - 2200W element - 4.5m Copper Coil, insulated Silicone hoses, TempMate controlling the HE, probe at outlet of HE.

MT: SS Vessel Insulated, 1/2 deg drop over 1hr

Sorry for the profanity but if I cannot sort this thing out I'm giving up brewing because I am over itas I have had one disaster after another with this f*cking contraption and only on its 6th brew.

Any Idea of whats going on?

Cheers

Sully

EDIT: what is the ramifications of the long ramp have on the final product? Cheers


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## Wisey (3/10/09)

Sounds like you've invested to heavily in your setup just to can it mate.

Setup your temp prob 5 degrees hotter then your needed temp?


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## fcmcg (3/10/09)

Interesting considering i just put a post in about HE.
What diameter is the pipe in your HE ?
Is it a sep unit or in you HLT ?
Wondering if your coil is not big enough ? Too big ?
Pumping to fast ?

Screwy and Chappo seem to be the go to guys with HERMS...

Don't give up...seek the answers...and when they are posted here...we could all learn from them...

Sorry i can't help further at this stage....
Good luck
Ferg


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## Sully (3/10/09)

Wisey said:


> Sounds like you've invested to heavily in your setup just to can it mate.
> 
> Setup your temp prob 5 degrees hotter then your needed temp?



Yeah I am going to but that really didnt help too much 




fergthebrewer said:


> Interesting considering i just put a post in about HE.
> What diameter is the pipe in your HE ?
> Is it a sep unit or in you HLT ?
> Wondering if your coil is not big enough ? Too big ?
> ...






What diameter is the pipe in your HE ? *1/2"*

Is it a sep unit or in you HLT? *Seperate*

Wondering if your coil is not big enough? Too big? *Im thinking not long enough*

Pumping to fast? *Flow has been restricted*

Sorry i can't help further at this stage.... *Thanks for the thought though.*


Cheers

Sully


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## TidalPete (3/10/09)

Bullshit Sully! You'll never give brewing away & if you do I want your plate chiller. :lol: 

Just sparging my first batch since upgrading my HE & it's a lot better & faster.
To my mind you have two options mate -----
1 --- try to add a smaller coil inside the existing one or 
2 --- put your existing coil inside a seven litre Woolies pot to cut down the water volume like I did (Although I went up to 2200w from 1800w as well).

My ramp up time is now under 1 minute \1 deg c.

TP

PS --- All my valves are wide open during recirculation.


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## jimmyjack (3/10/09)

Have you checked how fast your pump is reicirculating?How many Liters a minute is your pump putting out? Most of my problems arise from the pump loosing its prime. I always mash in low around 50 so I can get my pump sorted out and recircing properly before ramping. Hope that helps. I dont know how you have your pump set up but I finally installed a priming valve to flood my pump head and that helped me out immensely.

Cheers,

JJ


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## browndog (3/10/09)

Hi Sully,
Interesting problem you have there, a bit hard to make any comments without seeing detailed photos of your system, for what it's worth, I'd be meauring the temp of the water in your HE and the temp of the wort exiting the HE for starters. If the temp in the HE is like 20C above your set point and the wort is not heating as it is travelling though the coil then it's running to fast. My rough guess is that for some reason your element is not getting the power it needs to heat the water in your HE, that or you are starting your mash off with cold water in the HE and it is taking too much time to heat the water and the HE coils.

cheers

Browndog


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## TidalPete (3/10/09)

jimmyjack said:


> Have you checked how fast your pump is reicirculating?How many Liters a minute is your pump putting out? Most of my problems arise from the pump loosing its prime. I always mash in low around 50 so I can get my pump sorted out and recircing properly before ramping. Hope that helps. I dont know how you have your pump set up but I finally installed a priming valve to flood my pump head and that helped me out immensely.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> JJ



A priming valve certainly saves a lot of bother JJ.
I would imagine that anyone familiar with their rig would notice any changes in the flow of wort during underletting\recirculation & this is where a priming valve comes into it's own as a quick solution.
Mash in at 42 deg c partly for the reasons you stated.

TP

PS --- Just saw your post Browndog. :icon_cheers: You make a fair point there. We mostly use elements from el-cheapo kettles & who knows how they compare with a more expensive element?


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## Screwtop (3/10/09)

Betcha your return manifold is blocked. I use a pipe, no drilled holes or anything and it still blocks up. Open full bore until wort returns to your mash tun, then throttle back to about 1/4 flow for the ramp up. If you leave it full bore it will suck grist out and this will block the manifold, the trick is to just get the first runnings containing some grist through the coil then back off. Could also be that the grainbed has compacted if you've left the return valve at full bore.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## newguy (3/10/09)

To save your brew day and your sanity, try directly wiring the HE's element to power so that it's 100% on. Monitor the mash temp manually and when it's about 2* below your setpoint, cut the power and see where it settles. You should be able to manually come close to your set temps this way. It will also tell you if it's your controller at fault because if the mash temp comes up quickly, it's definitely the controller. If not, it's the flow through the HE (too slow - either pump or blockage somewhere) or the HE composition itself (is it copper?).


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## TidalPete (3/10/09)

:icon_offtopic: 

As mentioned I am using my upgraded HE for the first time & had the mother of all blockages when first recirculating this morning . Turned out that whilst I had the HE disconnected for upgrading some bloody insect crawled into the recirc hose & built a nice little home of woven leaves. :angry: 
A thorough blast with the hose through the system evicted the bugger once & for all.  
The moral of this story is to keep everything closed up when not in use.

TP


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## Sully (3/10/09)

TidalPete said:


> Bullshit Sully! You'll never give brewing away & if you do I want your plate chiller. :lol:
> 
> Just sparging my first batch since upgrading my HE & it's a lot better & faster.
> To my mind you have two options mate -----
> ...





I have all valves fully open and it still caused grief, but this last brew I put in a ball valve to restrict flow on the return inlet of the mash tun as there was too much pressure going thru the return manifold causing aeration.





jimmyjack said:


> Have you checked how fast your pump is reicirculating?How many Liters a minute is your pump putting out? Most of my problems arise from the pump loosing its prime. I always mash in low around 50 so I can get my pump sorted out and recircing properly before ramping. Hope that helps. I dont know how you have your pump set up but I finally installed a priming valve to flood my pump head and that helped me out immensely.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> JJ





JJ, the pump is operating at full pressure as far as I can tell - there is definitely plenty of pressure there. 

Also I do have a priming valve which eliminates hydraulic locks. That was another issue I battled earlier on which I fixed on brew #4.







browndog said:


> Hi Sully,
> Interesting problem you have there, a bit hard to make any comments without seeing detailed photos of your system, for what it's worth, I'd be meauring the temp of the water in your HE and the temp of the wort exiting the HE for starters. If the temp in the HE is like 20C above your set point and the wort is not heating as it is travelling though the coil then it's running to fast. My rough guess is that for some reason your element is not getting the power it needs to heat the water in your HE, that or you are starting your mash off with cold water in the HE and it is taking too much time to heat the water and the HE coils.
> 
> cheers
> ...





Valid points - I will check them out. I did preheat the water in the HE so that scraps that part of the theory but the rest I will follow up on.




Well the latest is I managed to raise to mash-out in 25mins by overshooting the HE to 85deg. still too bloody long..

My theory, if that is worth anything, is something to do with the copper coil to water volume to element size ratio. there is nothing else I can think of, the rest of the system _*seems*_ ok.




Cheers for the help guys. :icon_cheers: 

Sully


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## Sully (3/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> Betcha your return manifold is blocked. I use a pipe, no drilled holes or anything and it still blocks up. Open full bore until wort returns to your mash tun, then throttle back to about 1/4 flow for the ramp up. If you leave it full bore it will suck grist out and this will block the manifold, the trick is to just get the first runnings containing some grist through the coil then back off. Could also be that the grainbed has compacted if you've left the return valve at full bore.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy





Screwy, I have the same return manifold setup as yours, ie the pipe with the bent tab at the bottom, saw yours and thought that was the bomb so changed to it last brew. there is definitely wort flowing and at full pressure, I had to put in a ball valve to restrict the flow because I was getting aeration.


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## Screwtop (3/10/09)

Sully said:


> Screwy, I have the same return manifold setup as yours, ie the pipe with the bent tab at the bottom, saw yours and thought that was the bomb so changed to it last brew. there is definitely wort flowing and at full pressure, I had to put in a ball valve to restrict the flow because I was getting aeration.




Where are you measuring the temp for the next step Sully??

Screwy


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## Sully (3/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> Where are you measuring the temp for the next step Sully??
> 
> Screwy






At the Mash Tun with a Mashmaster (a different one from last brew also) and a thermometer. 

The probe for the HE control is in a thermowell at the exit of the HE which is reading at the stepped temp ie. the HE probe reads 64deg, the Mashmaster reads 55deg and the thermometer reads 55deg when inserted in the grist (when I checked it).

Which brings me to a new theory, I wonder if the TempMate is reading correct?? The only way I could raise to the last few degrees was to set the HE to 70deg...

I will check it.


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## Sammus (3/10/09)

same thing happened to me Sully, I just gave up on HERMS instead of brewing  I had 6m in a 5L vessel with a 2200W element, pumping through at about 1L/min and for some reason even though the wort was the right temp exiting the HE, it just wasn't warming up the mash noticeably... biggest failed experiment ever...

I'd say f*ck HERMS, theyre bloody useless contraptions  decoctions for step mashing is the way to go.


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## chappo1970 (3/10/09)

Firstly your givin' up brewing over my dead lifeless stone cold body. FULL STOP. :icon_cheers: 

Mate your set up is my set up I modelled mine from yours, in fact you helped build mine FFS! the only diff is I have 6m of coil in the HE. Ramp times I have been gettin' 1C per min so I would think you should be somewhere there maybe a little behind because of the lesser exposure of the wort to the HE bath but should be a matter of seconds not minutes.

Anyways I'm heading up 1stly to kick your white honky ass for even suggesting givin' up brewing :angry: 2ndly I had to have a massive barney with SWMBO to get a leave pass to drop your crafty stuff to ya for tomorrow (not your issue Mate you know what a stubborn arsehole i can be yeah? :super: ) and 3rdly a fresh set of eyes can spot something simple that may be astray or missed?

Leaving in about 20min see ya soon!


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## Sully (3/10/09)

TidalPete said:


> Bullshit Sully! You'll never give brewing away & if you do I want your plate chiller. :lol:


 :lol: - dont worry TP, just having a rant session cause I am pissed off


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## real_beer (3/10/09)

Sully said:


> Guys,
> 
> I am brewing now as I type and it has taken at least 1.5hrs to ramp from protein rest to sacc rest and I still cannot reach target temp.
> 
> ...


Hi Sully
I'm in the process of building a HERMS system at the moment so I can't give experienced feedback, but all the research I've done so far highlights that its really important to have the water in the hot water tank moving around the coils. I don't know if you stir the water in your system but it might be a thing to look at.


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## Screwtop (3/10/09)

Sammus said:


> same thing happened to me Sully, I just gave up on HERMS instead of brewing  I had 6m in a 5L vessel with a 2200W element, pumping through at about 1L/min and for some reason even though the wort was the right temp exiting the HE, it just wasn't warming up the mash noticeably... biggest failed experiment ever...
> 
> I'd say f*ck HERMS, theyre bloody useless contraptions  decoctions for step mashing is the way to go.




You gave up due to a lack of info, the temp of the wort exiting the herms IS your mash temp not the grainbed, lot of brewers make this mistake. The wort has to reach mash temp not the grainbed.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## chappo1970 (3/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> You gave up due to a lack of info, the temp of the wort exiting the herms IS your mash temp not the grainbed, lot of brewers make this mistake. The wort has to reach mash temp not the grainbed.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy



+1 Screwy!

I had my doubts, I'll be honest, but was guided by ya mike and never had an issue over the 6 batches so far since the upgrade. In fact last brew day on lookers were suprised how with only using tempmates that there were no over ramping issues at all. Placement of the thermowell is the linch pin of a HERMS system! BTW thanks Screwy! :icon_cheers: 

Chappo


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## Screwtop (3/10/09)

Sully said:


> At the Mash Tun with a Mashmaster (a different one from last brew also) and a thermometer.
> 
> The probe for the HE control is in a thermowell at the exit of the HE which is reading at the stepped temp ie. the HE probe reads 64deg, the Mashmaster reads 55deg and the thermometer reads 55deg when inserted in the grist (when I checked it).
> 
> ...




You don't use the mash/grainbed temp only the temp of the wort exiting the HE, the whole exercise of using a herms is so that the WORT never gets above your desired mash temp, recirculating the mash over one hour see's it continuously rising to your mash temp, with no enzymic action occuring at a temp greater than your desired mash temp. Who cares about the temp of the grist, the point is to hydrolise the starches and get them into suspension in the wort (thats how come it looks brown and starchy) and then get the wort to whatever convrsion temp you require. When infusion mashing the wort spends some time above your mash temp before reaching equilibrium and some conversion will occurs at these temps even though this only lasts 5 or 10 min. With HERMS this never happens, you can control the hottest temp your wort will ever reach.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Sully (3/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> You don't use the mash/grainbed temp only the temp of the wort exiting the HE, the whole exercise of using a herms is so that the WORT never gets above your desired mash temp, recirculating the mash over one hour see's it continuously rising to your mash temp, with no enzymic action occuring at a temp greater than your desired mash temp. Who cares about the temp of the grist, the point is to hydrolise the starches and get them into suspension in the wort (thats how come it looks brown and starchy) and then get the wort to whatever convrsion temp you require. When infusion mashing the wort spends some time above your mash temp before reaching equilibrium and some conversion will occurs at these temps even though this only lasts 5 or 10 min. With HERMS this never happens, you can control the hottest temp your wort will ever reach.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy





Screwy I sent you a PM which you have answered here anyways but will repeat it here.


Basically f*ck what the MT/grist temp is, go off the wort temp at the HE. The only clarification needed is do you keep recirculating throughout the mash step?

As I mentioned, completely different to the original way I have been shown and told, and now what you say makes a hell of a lot more sense AND will cause me less grief.

Now I am a bit red-faced... <_< 

Cheers :icon_cheers: 


Sully


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## jimmyjack (3/10/09)

Sully 

I think you are correct about your assumptions with your dial therm not being correct. I try and have my HE return very close to the end of my dial so I can get accurate readings to double check.

Keep brewing mate

Cheers,

JJ


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## hockadays (3/10/09)

Hi Sully,
Is your mash tun insulated on the top and sides? that maybe the reason your not get the bed to rise in temp.


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## Screwtop (3/10/09)

Sully said:


> Screwy I sent you a PM which you have answered here anyways but will repeat it here.
> 
> 
> Basically f*ck what the MT/grist temp is, go off the wort temp at the HE. The only clarification needed is do you keep recirculating throughout the mash step?
> ...




I have responded and replied to like posts at least a dozen times explaining my method and the reasoning and results. There would be s shitload of info re HERMS process. Still, remember there is no one right way. 

Yes I recirc the whole time, pseudo protien rest through to mash out and only stir at mash in. Follow whatever way you like or have been shown so long as it works for you.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Lilo (3/10/09)

Chappo said:


> +1 Screwy!
> 
> I had my doubts, I'll be honest, but was guided by ya mike and never had an issue over the 6 batches so far since the upgrade. In fact last brew day on lookers were suprised how with only using tempmates that there were no over ramping issues at all. Placement of the thermowell is the linch pin of a HERMS system! BTW thanks Screwy! :icon_cheers:
> 
> Chappo



+2 Screwy... I have been tearing my hair ( what their is of it) out over the lack of heat in the Grist....I am about to pull the Temp gauge out of the Mash tun cos the differential pisses me to tears..... If I can't see it I can't quetion it.

Lilo


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## seravitae (3/10/09)

+1.

Consider the thermodynamics of what's going on. If your mash is at protein rest (lets say 40C?) and you wish to ramp up to about 60C, the heat flux through the copper coil is going to be fairly slow because the rate of heat transfer is affected by the difference between the two temperatures. If you wanted to get from 40C to 60C *really* fast, in theory you could pump a crapload of heat into the HERMS such that the HERMS water was, say, boiling, or even greater than 100C. This would cause your overall mash temp to increase greatly and much more quickly, but the issue with HERMS heating is that you are only heating a small portion of the wort - such to raise the bed quickly, your wort exiting the heat exchanger would likely be well over the temps required to destroy the enzymes.

Assuming you have got your desired flow rate, the only two ways to equilibrate the temperatures quicker is a) to raise the temp of the HERMS vessel, which is bad for the aformentioned reasons, or B) increase the surface area of the heat flux, ie make a bigger HERMS coil.



As previously mentioned however, the temperature of your overall wort is not as important as the temperature of your mash tun. The reason for this is: you are more interested in the temperature of the _liquid_ rather than the _solid_. The reason is that, you should be extracting your enzymes (water soluble) into the wort which is where it does its work, not inside the grain (mostly). As the wort circulates and consumes starches to make sugar, more starches will be brought into solution by the wort and recirculated.

The best way to consider a HERMS temperature is to forget the grain even exists, and consider how fast it takes to heat up the liquid only, ie at the HERMS output point. If this gets up to temp in a satisfactory time, then you've achieved what you wanted to.


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## Sully (3/10/09)

Well now that Chappo is outta my hair I can actually reply sensibly...

I can see the errs of my ways and now can see happier days. 

Thanks to Screwy for the PM, and everyone else's help and suggestions. I will be back on track tomorrow and hopefully pump out a couple of doubles.  

Cheers all 


Sully


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## browndog (3/10/09)

> The best way to consider a HERMS temperature is to forget the grain even exists, and consider how fast it takes to heat up the liquid only, ie at the HERMS output point. If this gets up to temp in a satisfactory time, then you've achieved what you wanted to.



Very good so long as there is no channeling and the wort is actually draining though the mash.


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## Screwtop (3/10/09)

browndog said:


> Very good so long as there is no channeling and the wort is actually draining though the mash.




Good point made by BD, that is why I stir once at mash in for a very short period and then throttle the pump out back to 1/4 to reduce suction and prevent packing down the grainbed, almost a floating mash situation (no that will draw a whole new lot of crabs). You want a good open mash, only stir again after the Sacc rest just before ramping to mash out, and AGAIN slowly and gently, I just rotate the head of the mash paddle to loosen up the griainbed. The first stir/mix at Mash In would last no more than 8 seconds (yes I've timed it, I know I'm a geek) and the second before mash out would be about the same.



Sully said:


> I can see the errs of my ways and now can see happier days.
> 
> Thanks to Screwy for the PM, and everyone else's help and suggestions. I will be back on track tomorrow and hopefully pump out a couple of doubles.
> 
> Cheers all



And bloody good doubles they will be, with highly attenuative wort. You will discover how boring HERMS brewing can be. It's so easy it's a case of hurry up and wait, your day is spent responding to timers and on AHB. HERMS brewing takes longer than normal infusion and batch sparge but most of your time is spent waiting, it's a very relaxed day and is predictable and repeatable. Just how I like it.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## chappo1970 (3/10/09)

And yet no one listens to silly olde Chap Chap?


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## clean brewer (3/10/09)

Chappo said:


> And yet no one listens to silly olde Chap Chap?



Tell CB your worries mate...  :lol: Ill listen.. :unsure:


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## chappo1970 (3/10/09)

Thanks CB it all started when I met Sully....


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## Effect (3/10/09)

Chappo said:


> Thanks CB it all started when I met Sully....




:lol:


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## Back Yard Brewer (3/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> You gave up due to a lack of info, the temp of the wort exiting the herms IS your mash temp not the grainbed, lot of brewers make this mistake. The wort has to reach mash temp not the grainbed.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy




MMM so if what you are saying is on the money that would mean the wort exiting the MT or entering the HE should be the same :huh: (given time) So I could / should monitor the wort going in the HE as well. I have been using my herms for......... shit a long time and it always pissed me like it has Sully. I ended up bowing to pressure and thought F**k it if its returning at the right temp I will leave it.


BYB

Edit: F**k, always something new to learn...


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## clean brewer (3/10/09)

Chappo said:


> Thanks CB it all started when I met Sully....



:lol: Beer all over the floor.....  :lol:


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## chappo1970 (3/10/09)

On a serious note I am keen to organise an all HERMS brewers brew day? I think there could be benefits to all... sharing ideas, methods, setups etc? we seem to be fringe dwellers, no?


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## lefty2446 (3/10/09)

I have been tinkering with the idea of making a herms. So I'd love to come along.

Always thought that when I make an official brew stand...

Adrian


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## Screwtop (3/10/09)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> MMM so if what you are saying is on the money that would mean the wort exiting the MT or entering the HE should be the same :huh: (given time) So I could / should monitor the wort going in the HE as well. I have been using my herms for......... shit a long time and it always pissed me like it has Sully. I ended up bowing to pressure and thought F**k it if its returning at the right temp I will leave it.
> 
> 
> BYB
> ...




Surprised Tony hasn't chimed it, he's probably over it, I'm bloody close. He used to monitor wort out of the Mash Tun, wort out of the HE and Wort returning to the Mash Tun.

Exactly Andy, fcuk it, if it's returning at the right (mash) temp then that is all that matters. The most acurate place to control it is as close to the HE out as possible, naturally as you don't want the wort temp to rise above your mash temp, if monitoring at the mash tun return there will be system losses between the HE and the mash return so the wort would naturally be higher at the HE out than than at the mash tun return. 

Wort leaving the Mash Tun will always be at a higher temp than entering the HE due to system losses. Wort exiting the HE will always be the highest temp in the system. 

Forget HERMS, think about wort in the mash tun. Whatever heat source you use to heat the wort to the next step will need to apply a higher temp than the required mash temp to achieve the mash temp within a reasonable time. Is this desireable? Do you want parts of your wort at say 88C during the time it takes to raise the mash temp, how would this effect enzymic reactions in the wort. You would have used a mash temp of whatever, say 66C but some of the wort would have been at a much higher temp for a period of time to achieve this, do you think your wort would behave in the same way as wort that had never been above 66C. Wort fermentbility is pretty much the result of averages of temp over time, even single infusion mashes. The average of the water/wort temp over time is what determines the fermentability of the wort. With HERMS the wort temp should never rise above the set step temp monitored at the HE out, wort will recirculate through the HE during the rest period and again an average mash temp will result. The upside is that the wort has never been way above mash temp as in infusion or direct heating of the mash tun. This results in better control of fermentability.

My last post on this subject, there is an encylopaedia of info available and I'm sick of rehashing it, seems there's those that get it and.....well......you know.

Use your HERMS in whatever way makes good beer on your system. And most importantly, if you don't use a HERMS feel free to advise all and sundry on their use and on the pros and cons of their inclusion in the brewing process.

Screwy


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## Back Yard Brewer (3/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> Surprised Tony hasn't chimed it, he's probably over it, I'm bloody close. He used to monitor wort out of the Mash Tun, wort out of the HE and Wort returning to the Mash Tun.
> 
> Exactly Andy, fcuk it, if it's returning at the right (mash) temp then that is all that matters. The most acurate place to control it is as close to the HE out as possible, naturally as you don't want the wort temp to rise above your mash temp, if monitoring at the mash tun return there will be system losses between the HE and the mash return so the wort would naturally be higher at the HE out than than at the mash tun return.
> 
> ...




Yep, I reckon you must be over it :lol: Have read a number of your posts on herms and sometimes like others I am guilty of missing some of the more interesting techy bits, like wort return temp from the HE. Won't push your blood pressure anymore so I reckon I will leave any other HE things for Tony.


BYB


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## Screwtop (3/10/09)

Chappo said:


> On a serious note I am keen to organise an all HERMS brewers brew day? I think there could be benefits to all... sharing ideas, methods, setups etc? we seem to be fringe dwellers, no?




Shhhh, HERMS brewers, underground organisation, don't remember you being officially shown the handshake yet Chappo h34r: 


Screwy


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## chappo1970 (3/10/09)

There's a hand shake? FFS no one said there was a hand shake? :blink:


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## NickB (4/10/09)

I'm sure you know the password though Chappo........











h34r:


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## chappo1970 (4/10/09)

lefty2446 said:


> I have been tinkering with the idea of making a herms. So I'd love to come along.
> 
> Always thought that when I make an official brew stand...
> 
> Adrian




Woohoo well that's one!


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## Screwtop (4/10/09)

NickB said:


> I'm sure you know the password though Chappo........




Steady Nick, he hasn't been invited to ride the goat yet.

Screwy


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## chappo1970 (4/10/09)

Goats, secret hand shakes if there's some stern paddling I'm count me in! :wub:


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## Sully (4/10/09)

Back on topic (what was it again?? :blink: )

Anyways I will mashing in about an hour or so, dunno what yet, I had a plan but I cant remember what it was :unsure: . Will keep a update of the process as it progresses. I have printed Screwy loose "instructional" which was detailed enough and go from there. Pretty sure Ive got it sussed now, bottom line is "FORGET THE GRIST TEMP" 

Cheers Ears.

Sully


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## Screwtop (4/10/09)

Sully said:


> Back on topic (what was it again?? :blink: )
> 
> Anyways I will mashing in about an hour or so, dunno what yet, I had a plan but I cant remember what it was :unsure: . Will keep a update of the process as it progresses. I have printed Screwy loose "instructional" which was detailed enough and go from there. Pretty sure Ive got it sussed now, bottom line is "FORGET THE GRIST TEMP"
> 
> ...




Gunna be a piss easy day and an awesome beer.........................piece a piss this brewing game eh :lol:

Screwy


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## Sully (4/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> Gunna be a piss easy day and an awesome beer.........................piece a piss this brewing game eh :lol:
> 
> Screwy





WHEN I get it right


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## Sammus (4/10/09)

strange there's meant to be this huge hash of info, i searched extensively and eventually started a thread on my problems, and noone mention the liquid being at temp is all you need in there either. It kinda makes sense now you mention it, but I'm still not convinced. 

Surely if your grainbed is reading lower, yeah it doesnt matter what temp the solids are, but those solids are sitting in most of your wort, which is also that temperature. If I want the sugar profile given from a 67C mash, and 50mls of wort is at 67C for a few seconds, then gets returned returned to a 62C bath for 25mins before it enters the HE again, surely I'll be getting the 62C profile, not the 67C one. Like sure itll work, but you may end up with a very highly attenuating beer when you dont want one.


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## Sully (4/10/09)

UPDATE:

Decided to go with Docs Light Session double batch :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: ...

Following Screwy's directions I am now at mash temp in 17mins ramping from 54 deg to 69 deg. 

Still not relaxed with the concept as I keep looking at the Tun temp gauge and its only showing 55 deg... :unsure: I might remove it - can't see cant worry... 

She'll be right :icon_cheers: 

Sully


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## NickB (4/10/09)

If you're worried, try sticking a thermometer into the top liquid layer of the mash and see what that is. I couldn't get my head around the concept at first either, but it does actually produce beers as you intend them to be.


Cheers


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## Screwtop (4/10/09)

Sammus said:


> strange there's meant to be this huge hash of info, i searched extensively and eventually started a thread on my problems, and noone mention the liquid being at temp is all you need in there either. It kinda makes sense now you mention it, but I'm still not convinced.
> 
> Surely if your grainbed is reading lower, yeah it doesnt matter what temp the solids are, but those solids are sitting in most of your wort, which is also that temperature. If I want the sugar profile given from a 67C mash, and 50mls of wort is at 67C for a few seconds, then gets returned returned to a 62C bath for 25mins before it enters the HE again, surely I'll be getting the 62C profile, not the 67C one. Like sure itll work, but you may end up with a very highly attenuating beer when you dont want one.




No one's asking you to jump on the train Sammus. Like I said there is no one right way, persevere with your method you may find a work around for your system.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## chappo1970 (4/10/09)

Sully said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Decided to go with Docs Light Session double batch :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: ...
> 
> ...



Good call Sully

Now if you look at that temp dial again I'm gunna smash it with some big and blunt!


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## Sully (4/10/09)

Chappo said:


> Good call Sully
> 
> Now if you look at that temp dial again I'm gunna smash it with some big and blunt!


Don't do that Chap Chap, you might hurt your head h34r: 


UPDATE:

Mashing out now, ramp time 69deg to 77deg in 10 min

Its like popping my AG cherry all again, exciting stuff as well as nerve racking... :lol: 

Cheers

Sully


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## NickB (4/10/09)

Just doughed in the same recipe (well my take on it anyway, with dry hopping).

Hope all is travelling well Sully!

Cheers


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## Sammus (4/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> No one's asking you to jump on the train Sammus. Like I said there is no one right way, persevere with your method you may find a work around for your system.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy



Sorry mate I didn't mean it to come across like I was dissing your theory or anything, just was hoping for someone to explain why what I said isn't right. IE if you have 99% of you're wort at 62C for the whole mash, while little bits of it are repeatedly heated to 67C then cooled to 62 again, why do you get the malt profile of a 67C mash?


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## Sully (4/10/09)

UPDATE:

On the boil and first Hop addition done. 

Target pre-boil Gravity 1.027 - got 1.028 - SCHAWEEEET :super: How f*cken easy was that hey? NOW I need a bigger HLT as I don't have the excess time for it to reach temp for sparging.

Cheers for all the help and detailed instructions Screwy and to everyone else for their input in getting it sorted. 


Sully :icon_cheers:


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## seravitae (4/10/09)

This begs an interesting question actually. I'm unsure of the temperature dependance with regards to solubility but it may be interesting to do a brew, omitting the grain bed all together - perform a quick hot extraction (skip the mash, sparge first?) - collect the wort seperately from the grain, and mash grain-free. Efficiency would probably be low due to enzymes not being in proximity to the grains itself, but I'm curious to the result nonetheless. You could potentially hit your desired mash temp extremely accurately.

Sully are you using an undersized HLT ? (enough for strike, but not for sparge)? If so, depending on the volumes, you can heat the sparge during mash time - a good hour and a half there will easily get 20-40L up to sparge temp with a 2kw element


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## newguy (4/10/09)

Sammus said:


> Sorry mate I didn't mean it to come across like I was dissing your theory or anything, just was hoping for someone to explain why what I said isn't right. IE if you have 99% of you're wort at 62C for the whole mash, while little bits of it are repeatedly heated to 67C then cooled to 62 again, why do you get the malt profile of a 67C mash?



My HERMS controller, which I built from scratch, actually uses the mash temperature - I don't even measure the temp of the HE outflow. Sammus, I also had a philosophical issue with outflow temp vs what I felt to be the proper measure at the time: the mash temp. I do, however, measure the temperature of the water inside my heat exchanger, and during a ramp it never gets more than about 2.5C hotter than the mash itself. Once the mash comes up to whatever my set temp is, the HE temp will settle at that same value. Thus the only difference between the two approaches (outflow temp vs mash temp) would be a time lag between when your outflow hits your target vs when the mash does. Thus the two approaches are equivalent - only the time lag separates them. Clearer?


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## chappo1970 (4/10/09)

Sully said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> On the boil and first Hop addition done.
> 
> ...



See tis easy!

BTW how come Chappo *NEVER* gets a thanks??


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## Sully (4/10/09)

Chappo said:


> See tis easy!
> 
> BTW how come Chappo *NEVER* gets a thanks??



THANKS CHAPPO!!!  :lol:


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## Sammus (4/10/09)

newguy said:


> My HERMS controller, which I built from scratch, actually uses the mash temperature - I don't even measure the temp of the HE outflow. Sammus, I also had a philosophical issue with outflow temp vs what I felt to be the proper measure at the time: the mash temp. I do, however, measure the temperature of the water inside my heat exchanger, and during a ramp it never gets more than about 2.5C hotter than the mash itself. Once the mash comes up to whatever my set temp is, the HE temp will settle at that same value. Thus the only difference between the two approaches (outflow temp vs mash temp) would be a time lag between when your outflow hits your target vs when the mash does. Thus the two approaches are equivalent - only the time lag separates them. Clearer?




No. My problem is that the MT temp NEVER equals the HE temp. The HE outflow could be constant at 67 for 3 hours, and the grainbed in the MT can be sitting at 62C for that same hour. Screwy's argument is that since the liquid gets to 67C and thats where the starches and enzymes are, that's all that matters. My argument is that only a tiny percentage of that liquid is at the right temperature, with the vast majority being several degrees below your desired sacc rest temp.


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## newguy (4/10/09)

Sammus said:


> No. My problem is that the MT temp NEVER equals the HE temp. The HE outflow could be constant at 67 for 3 hours, and the grainbed in the MT can be sitting at 62C for that same hour. Screwy's argument is that since the liquid gets to 67C and thats where the starches and enzymes are, that's all that matters. My argument is that only a tiny percentage of that liquid is at the right temperature, with the vast majority being several degrees below your desired sacc rest temp.



I see. My question though is that has anyone seen a system where the outflow temp is higher than the mash temp for many minutes? If the tun is properly insulated the mash temp simply must eventually come up to the outflow temp.

The issue with the liquid at one temp, mash at another, and liquid contains enzymes argument is that the liquid in the mash tun is at a lower temp, and since it has a much larger volume of liquid than the HE piping does, the mash temp will predominate the final characteristics of the beer. I agree with you there.


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## NickB (4/10/09)

Is it not true that the enzymes are predominently in the liquid part of the mash? If so, the liquid above your grain bed in the MT will be close to the exit temp of the HE pretty quickly. I know that my mash thermo (in the grain bed) reads within a degree of the set temp at the HE output, however, consider that your manifold setup may be introducing channeling to your mash, and that the true temp of the mash would not be what the thermometer in the mash is reading. Either way, with a decent flow through the HERMS (ie: 1L a minute or so), it would most likely only take 15-20 mins at most to get mash equilibrium.

Realistically, the only way to get a true indication of the differences in mash temp of the grain and the HE output, would to be constantly stir the mash....and I don't have enough hours in the week to be contemplating that one.... any volunteers?

Cheers

PS: Don't know why it works, but what Screwy is saying seems to be right: consistent repeatable results. YMMV.


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## Sully (4/10/09)

DONE AND DUSTED!! 

Didn't quite get my target post boil OG mainly because I stuffed around with the boil volume/evap rate in Beersmith and ended up with a couple extra ltrs. I will chuck a 1/2kg DME to up it a bit. 

I see my issue has opened a debate. It would be interesting to see what temp is coming OUT of the MT before it hits the HE. You would need to set up three points and see what each is reading. 

I will watch intently but from what Screwy has posted worked for me and I am sticking with it. 

Cheers

Sully


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## technocat (4/10/09)

Sully when things look tough the graphic tells it all,


View attachment 31617



:icon_cheers:


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## Screwtop (4/10/09)

Sammus said:


> Sorry mate I didn't mean it to come across like I was dissing your theory or anything, just was hoping for someone to explain why what I said isn't right. IE if you have 99% of you're wort at 62C for the whole mash, while little bits of it are repeatedly heated to 67C then cooled to 62 again, why do you get the malt profile of a 67C mash?




No probs mate, you're onto it:



> IE if you have 99% of you're wort at 62C for the whole mash, while little bits of it are repeatedly heated to 67C then cooled to 62 again, why do you get the malt profile of a 67C mash?



You won't get the profile of a 67 mash, it will be something lower, and you can adjust the temp of "YOUR SYSTEM" for the profile of the beer you want/prefer then you can repeat this consistently. What doesn't happen is that you dont have to add water way above your mash temp to achieve a mash temp of 66C resulting in a profile of a 70C mash even though your trusty in-grainbed thermometer shows 66. You would probably already have found that though the wall type thermometers suffer from heat sinking to the metal surrounding the probe, as the sensor is located inside a SS thermowell that is part of the thermometer body and turned down probe end. If you have taken temp measurements around your mash using a probe on a flexible lead you will also have noticed that the temperature is usually hotter by a few degrees just near the surface and temps vary around the grainbed. There is nothing new in using a HERMS Heat Exchanger it's just a different way of mashing with temps varying around the system but it ensures your wort never rises above the required mash temp. Extraction seems to be better probably due to the number of times the wort passes through the grainbed.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## Screwtop (4/10/09)

Sully said:


> DONE AND DUSTED!!
> 
> Didn't quite get my target post boil OG mainly because I stuffed around with the boil volume/evap rate in Beersmith and ended up with a couple extra ltrs. I will chuck a 1/2kg DME to up it a bit.
> 
> ...




Happy for you mate, it really is a piece a piss eh, Tony could add to this as he has already done the measuring at three places thing years ago.

Now is this fcuking thing finished.........................................No more from me, cross me heart and hope to..................opps better not try that again :lol:

Screwy


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## chappo1970 (4/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> Now is this fcuking thing finished.........................................No more from me, cross me heart and hope to..................opps better not try that again :lol:
> 
> Screwy




Passion *NEVER DIES  :beerbang: *


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## Sammus (4/10/09)

rockn roll...your making me consider re-building my herms lol. :icon_cheers:


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## technocat (4/10/09)

G'day Screwy,

Am I right in thinking what you are saying is that the wort after passing through the HE (exit monitoring) given transfer losses and ending up in the MT, passing through the grain bed is the strike temperature what is desired given that monitoring the grain bed temp is a necessary step in achieving the temperature required. Sorry mate I am a little confused on some of the issues raised here which is of interest as I am in progress building a HERMS unit for my rig to give me better temperature stability in my MT. If this sounds a little disjointed it is probably because I have been most pleased that Melbourne kicked Parramatta's arse and have had a couple of nice jugs of English Southern browns.

cheers,

:chug:


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## Back Yard Brewer (4/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> No probs mate, you're onto it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Spot on, I was really pissed a few brews back. I have a temp sensor in a thermo well on the entry point to my mash tun. I decided one day for some reason to actually measure the temp of liquid wort itself FFS I got a surprise, it was actually around 3-4c hotter than thew sensor reading. I have now adjusted my sensor with that tolerance in mind.Works a treat.

BYB


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## Back Yard Brewer (4/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> Happy for you mate, it really is a piece a piss eh, Tony could add to this as he has already done the measuring at three places thing years ago.
> 
> Now is this fcuking thing finished.........................................No more from me, cross me heart and hope to..................opps better not try that again :lol:
> 
> Screwy




Look forward to more discussion on this topic at the case swap??? Techy herms info that is  

BYB


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