# Pump for CIP spray ball



## Damranger (4/9/16)

Hi all
I've just got a 1.5" tri-clover CIP (clean in place) spray ball for my fermenter - does anyone have any experience with a pump to suit these? Sump or submersible pumps seem the go but I'm keen to get other peoples thoughts. I seem to remember someone had a video on here of their CIP setup but I can't find it...

cheers


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (4/9/16)

Any pump that delivers more than 60 litres per minute at 1 bar (=10m) head will do fine. IMO submersibles are a terrible idea for CIP duty.

How big is your fermenter? Assuming the sprayball is the unit sold by Geordi etc, they are designed for small commercial tanks.


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## MHB (4/9/16)

Who ever supplied the spray ball should have supplied a spec sheet that will tell you how much flow you need.
I suspect you are in for a surprise at just how much pump you are going to need.
Here is a good read on options for CIP http://www.fluidproducts.com/TankWashingNozzles.htm
There are also a couple of good discussions on Probrewer and Home Brew Talk

You need to pay attention to your drainage to, if the spray isn't returning to the CIP reservoir quickly enough, it can run dry and in some cased damage the pump. You will also find that a pool of water in the bottom of the vessel will reduce the cleaning effectiveness of the spray on the surfaces under water.

Mark


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## malt junkie (5/9/16)

Both March and Chugger, do a nano pump that will do the job. The Chugger is around US$400 to your door. The March is a bit more like double that.


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## TheWiggman (5/9/16)

Got some details on the CIP ball in question? It will have an operating curve or reference table which will specify the flow at a given pressure. Check out page 2 of of this operating manual for a tank nozzle. 60l/min quoted by Lyrebird is at a glance overkill, but better to have a pump with too much flow than not enough. For effective spraying you really want high pressure (150 - 400 kPa), as individual tank cleaning nozzles on the home brew scale can't handle a lot of flow.
The two pumps linked above are good for 8.2m = 80 kPa, or 0.8 bar. What you really want is something like a jacking pump but there are no cheap options that I'm aware of. I only have ties with industrially sized units.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (5/9/16)

60 litres per minute @ 1 bar is the recommended pump spec for the 40mm sprayball from Geordi , I thought I'd said that in my response. If this sprayball has smaller holes, you can reduce the pump size.

I agree with Wiggman that the two pumps recommended in post #4 are inadequate for the job, I would add that they are also overpriced. In commercial world it is normal to use a multistage centrif (Grundfos type) for CIP duty to get good delivery pressure. Inevitably there are Chinese companies making something that looks similar at much lower prices.

This pump from Shimge would appear to be suitable, according to the provided curve it will do 60 l/min at about 1.8 Bar. Caveat: I've never used a Shimge pump, for all I know they could be utter crap.


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## mikk (5/9/16)

A 1.5" sprayball needs LOTS of flow + pressure. If your fermenter is normal 20-50L size, a smaller 0.5" sprayball might be a better solution, & require a much cheaper/smaller pump. The March/chugger pumps mentioned work ok with this size, and are considered 'sanitary' so can also be used for wort/beer.

https://www.brewershardware.com/CIP-Spray-Balls/


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## MHB (5/9/16)

The Shimge Pump mentioned above, well I wouldn't, having a look at the specs Max temp 40oC, pH max 8.5.
You would want to be careful what you put through it, certainly not hot caustic.


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## TheWiggman (5/9/16)

mikk said:


> A 1.5" sprayball needs LOTS of flow + pressure. If your fermenter is normal 20-50L size, a smaller 0.5" sprayball might be a better solution, & require a much cheaper/smaller pump. The March/chugger pumps mentioned work ok with this size, and are considered 'sanitary' so can also be used for wort/beer.
> 
> https://www.brewershardware.com/CIP-Spray-Balls/


Just took off my SI hat and noted that 1.5" is 75mm - a modest size on the home brew scale.
According to the spray ball specs for a 1" ball in the link you attached the minimum recommended pressure is 275 kPa (40 PSI), well above the max operating pressure of 60 kPa for a March pump at 13 l/min (1 gal/min). Note that we're in 50Hz so specs on US sites differ here.
Are you speaking from experience mikk? Because that's different to quoting specs.

Speaking of specs we really do need them from OP...


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (5/9/16)

MHB said:


> The Shimge Pump mentioned above, well I wouldn't, having a look at the specs Max temp 40oC, pH max 8.5.
> You would want to be careful what you put through it, certainly not hot caustic.
> 
> 
> ...


Good catch, I should have read the whole sheet not just looked at the curve.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (5/9/16)

TheWiggman said:


> Just took off my SI hat and noted that 1.5" is 75mm -


1.5" is 38.1mm*, often rounded up to 40mm.



*Since 1959, when they changed the definition of the inch to make it metric. I kid you not.


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## malt junkie (5/9/16)

Who would have thought 10hz could make such a huge difference Chugger info
You'd swear they were the same graph of the same pump, perhaps they really are?
I'd sugested them as they were all the rage on the US sites for CIP on a HB scale, obviously the power differences have a big impact on how much grunt one of these can produce.


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## TheWiggman (5/9/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> 1.5" is 38.1mm*, often rounded up to 40mm.
> 
> 
> 
> *Since 1959, when they changed the definition of the inch to make it metric. I kid you not.


Something's wrong with me today, might go home at 4.


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## TheWiggman (5/9/16)

malt junkie said:


> Who would have thought 10hz could make such a huge difference Chugger info
> You'd swear they were the same graph of the same pump, perhaps they really are?
> I'd sugested them as they were all the rage on the US sites for CIP on a HB scale, obviously the power differences have a big impact on how much grunt one of these can produce.


Rotational speed of the motor is 5/6 that of our US counterparts, makes quite an impact on a centrifugal pump.


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## husky (5/9/16)

malt junkie said:


> Who would have thought 10hz could make such a huge difference Chugger info
> You'd swear they were the same graph of the same pump, perhaps they really are?
> I'd sugested them as they were all the rage on the US sites for CIP on a HB scale, obviously the power differences have a big impact on how much grunt one of these can produce.


Centrifugal pump affinity laws:

Flow is proportional to pumps speed
Pressure is proportional to the square of the pump speed
HP is proportional to the cube of the pump speed
Half the pump speed and you will get 50% the flow, 25% the pressure and require only 12.5% the power so you can see a small change in pump speed can have a big impact to pressure.

At work I use model CD15 below for most small tanks - 1 BAR @ 60L/minute cleans 300L balance tanks with ease and is what I would use to CIP a small fermenter etc if I had a single phase centrifugal pump that would give me that flow.


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## Damranger (5/9/16)

Thanks guys, heaps of good info. I bought the ball from AliExpress but I'm still to pick it up from my old work where it got delievered, so I don't know if it has a spec sheet. The website says "Operates on 15-100PSI, 40-60PSI is recommended". I've found a few pumps with the PSI range but quite a low flow rate - high pressure, low volume. The CIP was only about $40 shipped but actually making it work seems like it will turn out fairly pricey.


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## Bj_donovan (5/9/16)

Bunnings ozito submersible pump $80 3 year warrantee...


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## klangers (6/9/16)

husky said:


> Centrifugal pump affinity laws:
> 
> Flow is proportional to pumps speed
> Pressure is proportional to the square of the pump speed
> ...


Not quite.

Centrifugal pumps are not positive displacement pumps, so flow is not proportional to anything simple. If it were a reciprocating pump, then yes, it would be proportional to speed.

Flow through centrifugal pumps is related to the difference in delivery pressure and back pressure in your piping system. The back pressure in your piping system is proportional to the flow and hydraulic parameters of the piping system. As you can see, this requires iteration to solve as it's a simultaneous equation.


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## 2much2spend (6/9/16)

So has anyone got More pics? Love to see some ideas.


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## malt junkie (6/9/16)

How ridiculous is a simple food grade CIP pump going to get? I mean you can get a little 60hz petrol genny pretty cheap. Is that going to be the simplest, cheapest, most effective solution. (with the chugger landed you'd still be under a grand.) And you could use the gen set to run your standard March/Chugger when brewing and see a step up in performance there too.

Ed: if you have solar some inverters will do 60hz too.


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## husky (6/9/16)

klangers said:


> Not quite.
> 
> Centrifugal pumps are not positive displacement pumps, so flow is not proportional to anything simple. If it were a reciprocating pump, then yes, it would be proportional to speed.
> 
> Flow through centrifugal pumps is related to the difference in delivery pressure and back pressure in your piping system. The back pressure in your piping system is proportional to the flow and hydraulic parameters of the piping system. As you can see, this requires iteration to solve as it's a simultaneous equation.


They are used for approximating parameters with changing speeds and for practical purposes they hold quite well. I use them a lot commissioning pumps that are fitted with a VSD and run anywhere between 15 and 80Hz yet we are supplied with 50 and 60hz curves only. While not an exact science they certainly get you in the ballpark when designing a system.


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## husky (6/9/16)

malt junkie said:


> How ridiculous is a simple food grade CIP pump going to get? I mean you can get a little 60hz petrol genny pretty cheap. Is that going to be the simplest, cheapest, most effective solution. (with the chugger landed you'd still be under a grand.) And you could use the gen set to run your standard March/Chugger when brewing and see a step up in performance there too.
> 
> Ed: if you have solar some inverters will do 60hz too.


Or you could go all out and put it on a variable speed drive. It has the added benefit of being able to vary the speed as well as buy a more readily available 3 phase pump(if you go the hygienic option). The VSD will allow you to run a 3 phase motor on a single phase power supply as long as its a small enough motor to not exceed the current available. I have all the bits to do exactly this to CIP a small fermenter but haven't got around to it in the past 12 months. If I get around to it I'll post a pic here of the setup.


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## malt junkie (6/9/16)

husky said:


> Or you could go all out and put it on a variable speed drive. It has the added benefit of being able to vary the speed as well as buy a more readily available 3 phase pump(if you go the hygienic option). The VSD will allow you to run a 3 phase motor on a single phase power supply as long as its a small enough motor to not exceed the current available. I have all the bits to do exactly this to CIP a small fermenter but haven't got around to it in the past 12 months. If I get around to it I'll post a pic here of the setup.


So would a simple VFD do the job of uping the fequency for the chugger/march?


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (6/9/16)

The specs on this pump say it will do the job*, $120 plus shipping..


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/0-37KW-Stainless-Steel-Water-Pressure-Booster-Pump-Self-Priming-Pump-Durable-for-Corrosive-Liquid/32675984602.html



* I'd take the specs with a grain of salt: the claim for the pump two sizes up is that it will operate with NPSH of 12m, that's physically impossible at sea level.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (6/9/16)

malt junkie said:


> So would a simple VFD do the job of uping the fequency for the chugger/march?


Yes. I have a single phase to 3 phase VFD on the pump for my RO system, it happily runs up to 70 Hz.

You need to be careful at speeds higher than this you can cook the motor if you are not.


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## Zorco (6/9/16)

Whoa, you have an RO system? Off topic, but is it a tiny packaged plant? Did you assemble it? 


Edit: What am I thinking.... it is LC here.... I wouldn't be surprised if he had his own space program (non-kerbal)


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## husky (6/9/16)

malt junkie said:


> So would a simple VFD do the job of uping the fequency for the chugger/march?


As long as the pump motor is 3 phase then yes.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (6/9/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Whoa, you have an RO system? Off topic, but is it a tiny packaged plant? Did you assemble it?
> 
> 
> Edit: What am I thinking.... it is LC here.... I wouldn't be surprised if he had his own space program (non-kerbal)


Yes, I built the prototype for Memstar's bench top RO system. I still have it (well actually it's at a mate's winery in Griffith). It was designed to do wine so it runs at very high pressure with a _very_ tight membrane ( ~150 Dalton MWCO) but I have a selection of other membrane cartridges up to NF scale: we did some experimental work on double membrane desalting of whey isolates.

My elder brother is the one with the life long passion for rocketry.


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## malt junkie (6/9/16)

malt junkie said:


> So would a simple VFD do the job of uping the fequency for the chugger/march?





husky said:


> As long as the pump motor is 3 phase then yes.




I'm Obviously not a sparky, but I don't get it. If I increase the frequencey across the 3 output phases to 60hz but only choose to use one of those phases, or use each phase separately on separate circuits should I not result in 60HZ at each phase?


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## Zorco (6/9/16)

malt junkie said:


> I'm Obviously not a sparky, but I don't get it. If I increase the frequencey across the 3 output phases to 60hz but only choose to use one of those phases, or use each phase separately on separate circuits should I not result in 60HZ at each phase?


Hope this helps MJ,

Single phase in, three phase out. 
Asynchronous (induction) motors made for three phase are balanced with all three phases delivered to the motor. 







The output of this type of device would be like this






And yep, all three of them will have equal frequency. Possibly 60Hz as you say.

The three phase motor windings can be shown like this






Well, that's something.

Single phase in, Variable Frequency device creating three phases like the waveform above, then those phases delivered to the motor.

All on, and hopefully all balanced.

If you use a device that creates three phases from a single phase, you could rightly separate the phases out, but it probably needs a ZN earthing transformer, some funky protection and some time. 

Those three phases are a family and need to stay together to drive their load mate. 

I'd have to see if there are VFDs that output to star connection. That would make separating the phases apart easy. Can't say I've ever designed a system that way though.

Edit: Fire back with questions mate, I'll try and help further.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (6/9/16)

VFDs are basically three big amplifiers with an adjustable three phase oscillator circuit. The amplifiers are run from a DC power supply which is fed from the single phase supply*.

If all three phases are running at the same power output the draw on the power supply is nearly constant making its job easier.

If you try to draw full power on one phase, you will be asking the transistors in the amplifier for that phase to be doing three times as much work. The draw on the power supply will also fluctuate much more.

Most VFDs will simply not start unless all three phases are connected up.

There are some complications regarding star vs delta wiring and the power factor of induction motors which I've left out to make things simpler.

* in the case of single phase to 3 phase VFDs, which is what we are discussing.


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## malt junkie (6/9/16)

The reason I've sorta chased this down is I'm thinking of up scaling to a 80-100L 3v over the next few years. My take on the current line up of home brew pumps available; from what we've discussed here, is they are all 20% under powered when used here in Australia. Unless of course you can supply them 60hz, and it seems the easiest way is with a 60hz inverter or geny.
3 phase pumps with VFDs just seem so way over the top for basic brewing tasks on such a small scale. The other option would be to have the motors rewound to deal with the 20% discrepancy; but again costly and a pain in the butt to chase up.

Another reason to hate standards that aren't standard :angry2:


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (6/9/16)

Rewinding the motor won't change the speed at which the motor runs on 50Hz supply, that depends only on the number of poles.

Synchronous speed in RPM = 60 x Fsupply / number of pole pairs. Induction motors generally run a bit below synchronous speed depending on load. The chugger motor is 2 pole* so it runs about 3500 RPM on 60 Hz and about 2900 RPM on 50 Hz.

If the motor uses a NEMA standard frame, it's probably easier to replace it with a DC motor. DC variable speed is cheap as chips to implement, you just use a mark to space ratio chopper and a cap.



*2 pole= 1 pair of poles.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (6/9/16)

Further to the above: looking at the drawing on the Chugger site, the pump looks like it might just be NEMA 42 frame size. This is a bog standard frame size for fractional motors. It's 1/8 HP, that's a little less than 100 watts.

If it is, I'm sure you could get together with someone who knows DC motors (like the guys at Motion Dynamics), import just the head from Chugger and find a >100W DC NEMA 42 motor that runs at around 3500 rpm. The saving on shipping the motor from the US will probably pay for the DC speed control.


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## Zorco (6/9/16)

malt junkie said:


> The reason I've sorta chased this down is I'm thinking of up scaling to a 80-100L 3v over the next few years. My take on the current line up of home brew pumps available; from what we've discussed here, is they are all 20% under powered when used here in Australia. Unless of course you can supply them 60hz, and it seems the easiest way is with a 60hz inverter or geny.
> 3 phase pumps with VFDs just seem so way over the top for basic brewing tasks on such a small scale. The other option would be to have the motors rewound to deal with the 20% discrepancy; but again costly and a pain in the butt to chase up.
> 
> Another reason to hate standards that aren't standard :angry2:


Yeah, I run a 117l brewery and all on a single KK silver beauty.

Not where I'd invest mate. But bigger is cool. 

Maybe whirlpool with a pump, then you need much bigger.


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## malt junkie (6/9/16)

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Yeah, I run a 117l brewery and all on a single KK silver beauty.
> 
> Not where I'd invest mate. But bigger is cool.
> 
> Maybe whirlpool with a pump, then you need much bigger.


At that brew length RIMS and HERMS are a very ify proposition or at least the ability to step in good fashion.

If memory serves me the silver pump you have is an MP RM15 from Aliexpress, I think it was Qldkev who first tracked it down, that was ... 3 years ago, maybe it's time for another forage for a high temp with some balls this time.


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## malt junkie (6/9/16)

Sorry dyslexia is killing me and I ain't dyslexic. The silver pump is a MP 15RM. But just saw the MP 40RM that has 3 times the flow and 2m of extra head.

Note there's a comprehensive list of the pump range but I think I'll take some time searching for more.


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## scooterism (6/9/16)

I use a Rule 1500 GPH bilge pump for my keg and fermenter day spa.

1500 GPH to Litres is 5678.118, so mega ample pressure.

Plus a 50mm Chinese ebay spray ball.

Works a treat.

It's even heated!

I think Bunnings sell an Ozito pump that is very similar..


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## TheWiggman (9/9/16)

Speaking of Kaixin (makers of the ever-trusty Keg King-distributed pump), they have quite a range -
https://kaixinpump.en.alibaba.com/

Their MP-100R is reasonably priced but unfortunately you need to buy minimum 48. I'm not sure if there's a local supplier. Other pumps in the range supply similar head at lower flow rates but order quantities still apply.


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## baron (20/9/16)

Hi Guys, I am in a similar boat and looking to purchase a pump for CIP and would appreciate some advise.
I read all the above but dont think im any closer to understanding what will work best for me.

I recently made an order for the following
- ss brewtech 1/2 (64Lt) bbl conical fermenter brewmaster edition.

This comes with a 1/2" CIP spray Ball which i think Operates on 15-100PSI, 40-60PSI is recommended.

SS brewtech have a guide which recommends purchasing something like a 1/4 HP Thermoplastic Submersible Utility Pump but i think i like the idea of a closed loop CIP system.

A guy posted this on homebrewtalk a while back which is kinda of what im after.

So is a Chugger-MAX-Stainless-Head-Nano-Brewery-Pump-230VAC what im after here?

I dont really want to go over $500 for a pump if i can help it.


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## malt junkie (20/9/16)

baron said:


> Hi Guys, I am in a similar boat and looking to purchase a pump for CIP and would appreciate some advise.
> I read all the above but dont think im any closer to understanding what will work best for me.
> 
> I recently made an order for the following
> ...


Yeah the chugger max @ 60Hz is the go, unfortunately at 50Hz it just ain't got the balls. Someone somewhere needs to get on making a 50Hz pump for home brewing that will get it done, This would go close, and there is bigger again, check the full list on that page.


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## scooterism (20/9/16)

You could make a closed loop system with an external sump, ie a bucket.

Pump wise, that sump pump could be all right, no temp rating tho'

This is the pump I use , good for 93 deg C. It's quality. people use these at sea.

When I get a chance I can make a video or take pics of my keg/fermenter/cube day spa..


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## baron (22/9/16)

Thanks for the reply guys. Much appreciated!


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## CJW (3/2/17)

Has anyone had any luck finding a reasonably priced pump for the SS Brewtech CIP ball?

It is hard to find a 50Hz pump that I can be sure will work acceptably.


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## klangers (3/2/17)

Get one that's rated for 60hz. It will still work fine, but the syncronous speed will be ~3000RPM (assuming 2 pole) rather than ~3600 RPM. This will obviously reduce the maximum pressure, and in turn, maximum flow rate. But it's not like it's black and white; work or not work.

I'd recommend a swimming pool/spa pump. They're designed to cope with chlorine, and hence tend to be fine with CIP chemicals. They also produce high pressures which is what you're after with CIP.

Anything less than 250 watts will be a waste of your time. Spray balls need high pressure (from a home brew perspective) to do anything.


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## klangers (3/2/17)

Also, I'd be very careful putting submersibles in elevated temperature CIP fluid. They normally rely on the medium for cooling, so with a hot CIP fluid you could burn out the pump or its seals. If you do burn the seals out, you then have a situation where the fluid (rather conductive thanks to the chemicals) can enter live parts. Not ideal.


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## CJW (3/2/17)

klangers said:


> Get one that's rated for 60hz. It will still work fine, but the syncronous speed will be ~3000RPM (assuming 2 pole) rather than ~3600 RPM. This will obviously reduce the maximum pressure, and in turn, maximum flow rate. But it's not like it's black and white; work or not work.
> 
> I'd recommend a swimming pool/spa pump. They're designed to cope with chlorine, and hence tend to be fine with CIP chemicals. They also produce high pressures which is what you're after with CIP.
> 
> Anything less than 250 watts will be a waste of your time. Spray balls need high pressure (from a home brew perspective) to do anything.


I was thinking about a spa pump for the reasons you mentioned, it occurred to me that a heated spa pump might be ideal as it would be able to maintain the temp as the liquid is recirculated.

Cheers


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## baron (4/2/17)

I purchased the one I mentioned above. Not cheap tho. 
I just hooked it up to some hose and tested it for leaks. 


It didn't seem to generate a great deal of pressure but that because i have excess hose hooked up and it at the moment. I assume once i trim the hose and set it up with minimal length it will be fine. 

Waiting for my leg extensions and glycol to come so i can give it a trail run.

Once i test it with a brew ill put results here. Might not be for a little while however.


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## Ferg (4/2/17)

I thought this one sounds good, well as good as something off aliexpress can sound: https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32757009972.html


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## Ferg (6/2/17)

I'll try that again with a proper non-phone link: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/0-33kw-Sanitary-Stainless-Steel-Centrifugal-Pump-Max-Flow-4-6m3-h/32757009972.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000014.2.Xpnx0t&scm=1007.13338.50051.0&pvid=366a3096-e33d-4094-b0e4-dd4c8cf816c4&tpp=1


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## tugger (6/2/17)

I'd be looking for a pool solar pump. 
There about half way between a pool pump and a spa pump.


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## Ferg (7/2/17)

Yep, this one at $270 could work for my ball: https://www.bestpoolsupplies.com.au/product/160/Onga-Leisure-Time-1-0HP-Solar-Pump-LTP750S?gclid=CLb1j9Kw-tECFQqavAodw6wDcA#tab-details

Specs I need are 20-40psi with a flow of 20-35gpm. In pump world that equates to 14-28 metre head @ 75-130 litres/minute.

The only caveat is the max temp of the water being 40 degrees. My hot water is usually around 50.


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## klangers (7/2/17)

You'll probably be OK with 50 degree water in a 40 degree pump for short periods.

The real issue will only really occur at higher flows, as hotter water cavitates more easily in pump inlets. Pumps meant for hot water have different inlet geometry, typically.

Just make sure there is plenty of head on the suction side - ie the pump is very much below it's infeed tank. Also make the inlet pipework nice and generously-sized. This will keep the NPSH up in light of elevated temperatures, and consequent reduced vapour pressure.


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## malt junkie (7/2/17)

What ^ he^ said.


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## TheWiggman (7/2/17)

Ferg said:


> Yep, this one at $270 could work for my ball: https://www.bestpoolsupplies.com.au/product/160/Onga-Leisure-Time-1-0HP-Solar-Pump-LTP750S?gclid=CLb1j9Kw-tECFQqavAodw6wDcA#tab-details
> 
> Specs I need are 20-40psi with a flow of 20-35gpm. In pump the world outside the US that equates to 14-28 metre head @ 75-130 litres/minute.
> 
> The only caveat is the max temp of the water being 40 degrees. My hot water is usually around 50.


FIFY.

I'm confident cavitation won't be a concern. It looks like that's an appropriate pump for the nozzle specs. I would be wary of running out-of-spec hot water through it long-term, as seals can quickly ruin your day if you stray too far from the recommended figures.


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## Ferg (7/2/17)

TheWiggman said:


> FIFY.
> 
> I'm confident cavitation won't be a concern. It looks like that's an appropriate pump for the nozzle specs. I would be wary of running out-of-spec hot water through it long-term, as seals can quickly ruin your day if you stray too far from the recommended figures.


Yeah my spray ball came from the US so that's the conversion I have to do!


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