# Different wort aeration kits



## mckenry

Dont want to start a retailer war here.
My research on here seems to show masively different usages out of different o2 systems.
Marks Homebrew wort aeration kit at $175 looks really good. I like the reg option. The claims in this thread are that it works out about 40 batches at 25L. This = about $1 per brew

The Connor breware at $93 or $110 with the SS tube in this thread have users reporting 6-8 brews per bottle. This = about $4 per brew, if bought in bulk.

Are these claims still correct or any further results?

I'd like to hear from both sides before I pull the trigger. Are you still happy with whichever system you went with?
Any negatives with either?

There seems to be some drama with getting replacements, but again, unsure if this still remains true.

I guess I'd prefer longer between bottles and if that is cheaper over the long run, then great.


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## GalBrew

The benefit of the Connor Breware kit is that the replacement O2 bottles can be bought from Masters. The downside is that there is no way of measuring your flow.


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## mckenry

GalBrew said:


> The benefit of the Connor Breware kit is that the replacement O2 bottles can be bought from Masters. The downside is that there is no way of measuring your flow.


Cheers Galbrew,
Does anyone happen to know about replacement bottles for oxy turbo that Mark sells? Places and price?


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## booargy

mckenry said:


> Cheers Galbrew,
> Does anyone happen to know about replacement bottles for oxy turbo that Mark sells? Places and price?


I get them from him. Think I can remember him saying one of the big plumbing chains sells them.
Best improvement to my beer appart from the usual and going AG.


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## mattfos01

I had been meaning to post in this little project. Keen for an O2 kit which wasn't a drama getting refill O2 bottles.

Bunnings is now selling a Bromic 136g O2 bottle for $49.88

Bunnings also has a 'Ross Accessories' reg/conversion kit for $34.97

But I ended up getting a reg as per below as it has the litres per minute gauge.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/400627433117?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D400627433117%26_rdc%3D1

Then grab a O2 kit / or stone from a Sponsor above and away you go....

P.S. Please excuse the images being all over the place, posting from the Ipad.

Haven't put mine to work yet but these might provide a few alternative ideas....View attachment 68059
View attachment 68059



View attachment 68059


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## pimpsqueak

I've been wondering which regulator to buy for the Bromic bottles and now I know.
Can't wait to try it out!


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## MetalRooster

Mattfos01 said:


> But I ended up getting a reg as per below as it has the litres per minute gauge.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/400627433117?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D400627433117%26_rdc%3D1


Keen to know how you go with this reg on the Bromic bottle. The manufacturer lists that it is for Argon/CO2, but doesn't specifically list O2?


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## timmi9191

Check the sellers reply to a question about that item. It isn't suitable for the bromic bottles.


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## Rurik

I got mine from MHB in the first batch that came out. I use it for every batch and it is the best thing I have ever done to make my beer better. I have gotten at least 30 brews form my first bottle. Spend the extra money I reckon.


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## brewtas

mckenry said:


> Dont want to start a retailer war here.
> My research on here seems to show masively different usages out of different o2 systems.
> Marks Homebrew wort aeration kit at $175 looks really good. I like the reg option. The claims in this thread are that it works out about 40 batches at 25L. This = about $1 per brew
> 
> The Connor breware at $93 or $110 with the SS tube in this thread have users reporting 6-8 brews per bottle. This = about $4 per brew, if bought in bulk.
> 
> Are these claims still correct or any further results?
> 
> I'd like to hear from both sides before I pull the trigger. Are you still happy with whichever system you went with?
> Any negatives with either?
> 
> There seems to be some drama with getting replacements, but again, unsure if this still remains true.
> 
> I guess I'd prefer longer between bottles and if that is cheaper over the long run, then great.


I've used my o2 system from Connor Breware for 9 x 20-23L batches so far and I expect to get a couple more from it. I open up the valve and fine tune the flow of o2 until the bubbles are barely breaking the surface. I've averaged 75 seconds over those 9 batches.

I agree with Rurik above that it's made a significant improvement to my beer. The amount I'm enjoying the beer I've brewed with it, I'd still be happy if it cost me twice as much.

Don't know why there would be a difference between the two though.


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## fcmcg

Just to add something ...
I use my air compressor..through a moisture trap and then a medical grade filter..and then into a length of 6mm stainless rod with a airation stone attached...
Works a treat...


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## timmi9191

Has anyone hired a boc oxygen set up?


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## Mr. No-Tip

timmi9191 said:


> Has anyone hired a boc oxygen set up?


Not sure if it's boc, but Canberra brewers have a hired oxy tank. It lives at one members house with the reg and we go over to fill up a corny full (can't remember pressure but can look up this and all the other little details if anyone's considering it).

At home, you just need a flow meter, rather than a reg due to the lower pressure. I reckon we get about 20 brews for $5 worth of oxy. Initial gear setup around $100 plus corny IIRC.


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## mattfos01

Yeah figured out the set up I was working on still needs some work.... Reg doesn't fit.


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## mattfos01

Just as a bit of a heads up. I went down to bunnings today to replace my oxyturbo bottle on the aeration kit I coupled together six months back. Turns out at least at the moment bunnings is selling this new type of cylinder with a smaller thread than the tuesco reg I ended up with. That being the type of one MHB used to sell in his kit.

Anyway. Turns out the multi gas reg I bought by mistake in January fits this cylinder.

Cheers


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## Batz

Mattfos01 said:


> Just as a bit of a heads up. I went down to bunnings today to replace my oxyturbo bottle on the aeration kit I coupled together six months back. Turns out at least at the moment bunnings is selling this new type of cylinder with a smaller thread than the tuesco reg I ended up with. That being the type of one MHB used to sell in his kit.
> 
> Anyway. Turns out the multi gas reg I bought by mistake in January fits this cylinder.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> image.jpg


Thanks Mattfos01, does this mean the ones from Tradelink have the same thread? Also what do Bunnies charge if you don't mind me asking?

Batz


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## MHB

The Wort Aeration kit I put together is available from Brewman, as are the replacement bottles which he still has listed at $55.
When I put these together they weren't the cheapest possible option, but were chosen for being rugged and reliable, as well as offering good value on the replacement bottles ($'s/brew).
If you need a bottle in a hurry Reece Plumbing stock them (but I think they are a bit dearer), Brewman has the bottles in stock.
Mark


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## mattfos01

The cylinder at bunnings was 49.88. The reg which I bought by mistake which I put up in post five from this thread fits. So not sure about the tradelink ones. But my Tuesco reg was too big for the thread on this new cylinder. The new cylinder is 136 grams, so same price and size as the Bromic ones.


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## Eagleburger

I filled a three litre coke bottle with one of those ss gassing lids to 20psi at friends . Used it straight away last night. Cost me a beer.


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## danestead

brewtas said:


> I've used my o2 system from Connor Breware for 9 x 20-23L batches so far and I expect to get a couple more from it. I open up the valve and fine tune the flow of o2 until the bubbles are barely breaking the surface. I've averaged 75 seconds over those 9 batches.
> 
> I agree with Rurik above that it's made a significant improvement to my beer. The amount I'm enjoying the beer I've brewed with it, I'd still be happy if it cost me twice as much.
> 
> Don't know why there would be a difference between the two though.


Sounds right to me. I'm pretty sure I've gotten 12 brews out of my Connor Breware O2 kit so far. 60 seconds just breaking the surface.


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## Bribie G

Bump.

I'm going to invest in an oxygen kit for the forthcoming comp season. At the moment quite happy to get one from Brewman when I'm down that way in a few weeks, but just covering all bases and wondering if anything different or cheaper etc may have come onto the market in the last two years since this thread was current?


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## Brownsworthy

I'm thinking about one myself and am just wondering how much better the beer is than just pouring the wort through a strainer, into the fv, like I do now and if it is worth it or do I just get one of the the little black pumps with the air stone?

Got a little one on the way and renovating at the moment so $175 is a bit of a stretch for me and after spending $2500 recently on my 3v setup and telling SWMBO that was it I'm not sure how long I would survive. 

Cheers


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## gap

I received the Brewman o2 kit for Christmas and saw an immediate improvement in my ferment.
Definitely worth it. pouring through a strainer is not in the same ball park.


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## Bribie G

I'm particularly interested in using the kit for lagers. I've brewed a few lagers that have placed in competitions but still unable to get them totally clean and non-fruity like a typical Euro lager.

With my current setup I can address nearly all the things that are required for a good lager: chilling rapidly, pitch rate, fermenting at the right temperatures, lagering properly etc, but the oxygenation is the one thing currently missing from my arsenal.

If I'm going to go to the expense of air pump and filter and a stone, might as well go the extra step with far less dicking around (30 min aeration etc).

I've been following Braukaiser's advice.

_A healthy lager fermentation requires more oxygen than an ale of the same strength in order to reduce the stress on the yeast. The required oxygen level of 8-10 ppm (mg/L) is best achieved though 1 to 1.5 minutes of pure O2 or 20-30 minutes sterile air though a 2 micron stainless steel stone._


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## fishingbrad

That's it Bribie. I only use it on my Lagers now as I found it made little to no difference to MY ales.

Cheers.


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## sp0rk

I'm currently looking at an aquarium pump, filter and airstone setup
O2 out here in the middle of bumfuck nowhere is hard to find, and when you do it's hilariously overpriced


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## Brownsworthy

At $29 I think I'll give the air pump, filter and air stone a go first then once funds allow I'll grab a setup from Brewman.

Cheers


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## Mardoo

Having used a couple different setups the Brewman one is the best of the small ones, IMHO. Only way better is to get a full size reg and bottle, and that's a matter of opinion too. Get yourself an O2 flowmeter so you know how much you're putting in, and remember slow flow with smaller bubbles gets more O2 into the wort than blasting it in.


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## Danscraftbeer

My O2 rig. ~$440 to set up. Swap and go is ~$70. Well used this should last the home brewer 1 to 3 years between swaping. Or more!





The disconnect is the way I pump it into my kegmenter rather than an air stone. I then rock and roll the sealed kegmenter. Otherwise use a stainless steal airstone dipped into the wort and move around and it makes a big head of froth. Never too much! I'm just learning here.

PS.
Tank from your local hardware stores. Regulator from Total Tools, or other options etc. Hoses and disconnects from your home brew store. etc. I tried not to name haha. Go get that stuff.
Don't bother with anything smaller if you DIY. Those aerosol like O2 bottles are a waste of money and you cant get the fittings for them.


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## Zorco

The molecular weight of o2 is heavier than air according to my chemistry textbook. The o2 would then sit on top of the wort. Diffusion would be then be the primary means of dissolving o2 into the fluid I guess.

Using pressure in a kegmenter would be a second mechanism for dissolving o2 for dem yeastiez.

But I'm a way off buying a kegmenter. So I have questions about non pressurised fermentation:
To economise o2 usage, is it our objective to just purge the headspace of our fermentation vessel with o2 and allow the diffusion gradient to do its thing? 

If we have a headspace of, say, 50% the volume of our wort, is that sufficient to strengthen yeast count/viability? More/less?

What is our target dissolved oxygen percentage?

I picked up a huge oxygen cylinder from a 'give-away' and rather unexpectedly I'm ready to try this business out.

Edit: I read the tip at the bottom of Bribie's post. I'm not sure that I understand the correlation of time to ppm yet.


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## gezzanet

+1 brewman's gear. Got it for a Xmas present last year. But the flow meter would make it even better. Thanks


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## Danscraftbeer

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> The molecular weight of o2 is heavier than air according to my chemistry textbook. The o2 would then sit on top of the wort. Diffusion would be then be the primary means of dissolving o2 into the fluid I guess.
> 
> Using pressure in a kegmenter would be a second mechanism for dissolving o2 for dem yeastiez.
> 
> But I'm a way off buying a kegmenter. So I have questions about non pressurised fermentation:
> To economise o2 usage, is it our objective to just purge the headspace of our fermentation vessel with o2 and allow the diffusion gradient to do its thing?
> 
> If we have a headspace of, say, 50% the volume of our wort, is that sufficient to strengthen yeast count/viability? More/less?
> 
> What is our target dissolved oxygen percentage?
> 
> I picked up a huge oxygen cylinder from a 'give-away' and rather unexpectedly I'm ready to try this business out.
> 
> Edit: I read the tip at the bottom of Bribie's post. I'm not sure that I understand the correlation of time to ppm yet.


Get the necessary bits and pieces. It should be the same as any new bottles. If its older than current stuff then its your judjment.
If its all OK then that bottle could last you many years. Its an interesting addition to home brewing for sure.
A stainless steel sanitised air stone on a sanitized hose into the brew. Add O2 and watch what happens. When your satisfied seal the lid and shake the crap out of it anyway to mix it all properly.


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## MHB

If you use an Air Stone, you don't need to shake, in fact I suspect that's a bit like shaking a bottle of beer before you open it, same amount of dissolved gas (CO2 not O2) but a very different outcome, the gas comes out of solution a lot faster and quite messily. I think shaking might reduce the amount of dissolved O2.

Mark


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## Kev R

Just a word of caution, reading posts about filling kegs,coke bottles ect with pressurized O2. Any keg lube ect may not be oxy compatible nor keg seals and O rings,and i think plastic comes from oil and oil is definitely not o2 compattible.white thread tape is not.
In the gas industry ( BOC ect) in all oxy systems including low pressure systems oxy clean is taken very seriously.
Be careful you aren't making a bomb.


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## Bribie G

I got the Brewman kit, and have just done the first "straight through" oxygenation of a batch.

A 6% ABV English IPA fermented with Wyeast 1968.

I oxygenated starter wort and pitched the smack pack, stepping it up over a couple of days.

Then oxygenated the main wort when it was cool ... a minute on a slow "trickle" without raising too much foam.

Pitched and fermented at 20 degrees.

Pitched on Saturday Morning
Now finished and clearing from the top.

Bloody eck. :blink:

D rest and leave it to do its thing till the weekend.


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## MHB

Makes a gobsmacking difference doesn't it!
Although I hardly think you will need a diacetyl rest with an ale hopefully you will notice an improvement in your beer too.
Mark


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## drsmurto

Bribie G said:


> I got the Brewman kit, and have just done the first "straight through" oxygenation of a batch.
> 
> A 6% ABV English IPA fermented with Wyeast 1968.
> 
> I oxygenated starter wort and pitched the smack pack, stepping it up over a couple of days.
> 
> Then oxygenated the main wort when it was cool ... a minute on a slow "trickle" without raising too much foam.
> 
> Pitched and fermented at 20 degrees.
> 
> Pitched on Saturday Morning
> Now finished and clearing from the top.
> 
> Bloody eck. :blink:
> 
> D rest and leave it to do its thing till the weekend.


Oxygen definitely speeds up the time it takes to hit FG from my experience. I've also noticed that FG is a few points lower compared to just using an air pump.

I found one big difference when using oxygen was just how much cleaner the beers turned out from a flavour point of view. I assume that by providing a healthier environment for the yeast it is in turn behaving much better and cleaning up after itself leaving behind cleaner, brighter beer flavours.

From my analysis of sulfur compounds in wine at work (think hydrogen sulfide, dimethyl sulfide and several other stinky molecules) I've found that a lot of wines had detectable but low levels that didn't stand out when smelled/tasted. They are thought to contribute to the 'complexity' of the flavour and aroma. How, we don't understand just yet.

I wonder if, that by using oxygen, we are reducing the concentration of these molecules which to some degree, mask the desirable flavours and aromas we want in the beer, thereby giving those molecules more chance to sing.


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## Mardoo

I have definitely had insanely fast ferments since starting to use oxygen. 70 points and finished in three days, for example. However, I have found myself a bit frustrated by the lack of flavour production from English "character" yeasts. Very clean beers, but maybe a bit too clean. This arose when I started using oxygen. I'm not yet sure that it was the oxygen, but I'm trying some ferments with these yeasts without oxygen to see whether I'm happier with the results. 

Any insights or advice?


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## Benn

Could raising the ferment temp in conjunction with o2 aeration create the desired flavours from the yeast at the same time as reducing the undesirable flavours produced by yeast in an oxygen poor wort?


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## MHB

Mardoo said:


> I have definitely had insanely fast ferments since starting to use oxygen. 70 points and finished in three days, for example. However, I have found myself a bit frustrated by the lack of flavour production from English "character" yeasts. Very clean beers, but maybe a bit too clean. This arose when I started using oxygen. I'm not yet sure that it was the oxygen, but I'm trying some ferments with these yeasts without oxygen to see whether I'm happier with the results.
> 
> Any insights or advice?


Yep, that would be the O2 in action. Mind you even with good aeration 70 points in 3 days, you must have had a fair sized pitch.
There is a range for both the yeast and O2 you want in a brew, at the higher end of both (not talking over pitching OK) you will get cleaner beer, at the lower ends more yeast flavours slower brews and more chance of unwanted flavours.
If you want more of the yeast esters wind back the amount of O2 a bit, reduce the flow rate, the time or wait 5-10 minutes after aerating before pitching.
You might also try pitching then aerating a couple of hours to 1/2 a day later, some yeasts respond better to that regime.
Mark


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## Bribie G

Quite a few British beers are re-aerated during the first part of the fermentation, for example Yorkshire bitters which are "pumped" into an upper chamber then allowed to drain back to the main fermentor, double dropped beers such as Brakspear and Burton Union beers.

There are even some coolships still around where the wort is cooled in big open pans with fans blowing on it.


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## Mardoo

MHB said:


> Yep, that would be the O2 in action. Mind you even with good aeration 70 points in 3 days, you must have had a fair sized pitch.


Cheers Mark. Yeah, I figured pitch size was part of it, so I stopped oxygenating starters as a first step. This made some difference. Of course everything I am working from regarding yeast count of my starters is estimations (Mr. Malty, Yeastcalc, Braukaiser and the like) so I am flying a bit blind. At the moment I lack the ability to count yeast. 

However, none of the calculators or charts I've seen take into account oxygenation of starters, so my guess was that I was ending up with more growth than predicted. Measurement of yeast solids - which is a blunt object at best - showed around 30% more growth than calculations estimated.

I'll take your advice about balancing O2 additions and pitch size according to strain. I'll still keep on with my no-O2 experiment (other than shaking) so as to refresh that reference point, as it's been awhile. And it's fun


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## GalBrew

I have also noticed with certain British strains I get very little esters when I do a starter and oxygenate (1469 notwithstanding).


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## Mardoo

Erm…that WAS 1469. Closest thing I have to a house yeast.


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## GalBrew

Mardoo said:


> Erm…that WAS 1469. Closest thing I have to a house yeast.


That's unfortunate.


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## DigitalGiraffe

How many brews do you generally get out of the disposable O2 canisters?


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## Bribie G

English Special Bitter, OG 1045 pitched on Tuesday morning. 19 degrees.

It's Friday.

Already clearing from the top. This is absolutely frightening :blink: :blink: :blink:


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## Black n Tan

Bribe I made your Yorkshire Bitter, hit final gravity within 2 days.


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## Mardoo

Bribie G said:


> English Special Bitter, OG 1045 pitched on Tuesday morning. 19 degrees.
> 
> It's Friday.
> 
> Already clearing from the top. This is absolutely frightening :blink: :blink: :blink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oxygen result 1.jpg


Oh **** yes. Never stopped freaking me out.


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## danestead

DigitalGiraffe said:


> How many brews do you generally get out of the disposable O2 canisters?


I have a 40g Benzomatic Oxygen which has seen about 40 brews so far I would say. Still going. I use 1 minute per brew.


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## Blind Dog

Anyone got better results (taste wise only) with O2 with English yeasts/beers compared to shake / tip into FV from a great height style agitation? Would be interested to know


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## Chridech

New to brewing and admittedly have only used 1469 the once. After reading Bribie G extol the virtues of 1469 I pitched a healthy starter of 1469 into a TTL tribute wort. 0xygenated for 90 seconds with bottled 02 and a scintered stone with the aim of achieving 10ppm. The beer tastes good and is well attenuated but I don't have the estery flavours that I anticipated. Side by side with a bottle of the real TTL they are different, the real TTL having an additional flavour that might be the yeast, but my palate is not good enough to be certain. Like Mardoo I will need to brew this beer a couple of times with different oxygenation rates to get a feel for it. Hefeweizen banana and clove phenolics are said to benefit from under pitching and no oxygenation, aside from choice of ferment temp, perhaps English bitters and other styles with some yeast forward flavour do benefit from less oxygen. Perhaps all this enthusiasm for 02ing wort is driven by Lager breweries and 'clean' IPA styles. Interested to know if the commercial breweries are manipulating oxygenation rates for different styles of beer.


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## wynnum1

Is it possible to manufacture oxygen using _Sodium percarbonate and would the oxygen produced have any off tastes the sodium percarbonate breaks down in water to release _Hydrogen Peroxide, you would not put Hydrogen Peroxide in the wort but what about the oxygen that could be released .Potassium Iodide is a _Catalyst that releases the oxygen and there are experiments that show this elephants toothpaste._Catalytic Decomposition of Hydrogen Peroxide by Potassium Iodide


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## timmi9191

danestead said:


> I have a 40g Benzomatic Oxygen which has seen about 40 brews so far I would say. Still going. I use 1 minute per brew.


 Ditto


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## mofox1

wynnum1 said:


> Is it possible to manufacture oxygen using _Sodium percarbonate and would the oxygen produced have any off tastes the sodium percarbonate breaks down in water to release _Hydrogen Peroxide, you would not put Hydrogen Peroxide in the wort but what about the oxygen that could be released .Potassium Iodide is a _Catalyst that releases the oxygen and there are experiments that show this elephants toothpaste._Catalytic Decomposition of Hydrogen Peroxide by Potassium Iodide


Actually a couple of punctuation marks in there, not that it makes any more sense than usual.

Wynnum, stop eating the elephant's toothpaste.


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## manticle

wynnum1 said:


> Is it possible to manufacture oxygen using _Sodium percarbonate and would the oxygen produced have any off tastes the sodium percarbonate breaks down in water to release _Hydrogen Peroxide, you would not put Hydrogen Peroxide in the wort but what about the oxygen that could be released .Potassium Iodide is a _Catalyst that releases the oxygen and there are experiments that show this elephants toothpaste._Catalytic Decomposition of Hydrogen Peroxide by Potassium Iodide


It's been discussed before (at least the hydrogen peroxide bit - I think even mentioned earlier in the thread). For a number of reasons, it's not viable.

How would you get the oxygen product in the wort from the hydrogen peroxide if not adding the solution to the wort anyway?

Buy cylinder of oxygen and appropriate accessories and add O2 to wort or make up sodium percarbonate, wait till it breaks down and somehow capture just the oxygen bit.

Not sure how you'd make that work and why it would be easier or more efficient if you could.


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## MHB

Potassium Iodide is a reportable chemical, it can be used in making amphetamines so its fairly closely monitored and you are very likely to get a visit from the boys in blue if they don't like your reasons for purchasing it.
The other point is that it would cost a lot more to set up an O2 generator than to buy the O2, I have thought about some of the medical type O2 concentrators, but anything that will do a good enough job looks like it will cost a couple of $K.

KISS
Mark


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## wynnum1

The oxygen is given off could be collected in a bag.
The oxygen on planes is chemicaly produced.


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## MHB

Hell you can get electrolytic units that break up water, lots of options, the simplest, cheapest, most reliable and available option is a bottle.

"The oxygen on planes is chemicaly produced." Really, frankly I doubt it having seen plenty of O2 bottles mounted on large aircraft, (the fighters at the air force base near here use liquid oxygen) there might be some emergency temporary O2 supplies that use chemical generators but its far from standard as far as I know.
Mark


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## GalBrew

Chridech said:


> New to brewing and admittedly have only used 1469 the once. After reading Bribie G extol the virtues of 1469 I pitched a healthy starter of 1469 into a TTL tribute wort. 0xygenated for 90 seconds with bottled 02 and a scintered stone with the aim of achieving 10ppm. The beer tastes good and is well attenuated but I don't have the estery flavours that I anticipated. Side by side with a bottle of the real TTL they are different, the real TTL having an additional flavour that might be the yeast, but my palate is not good enough to be certain. Like Mardoo I will need to brew this beer a couple of times with different oxygenation rates to get a feel for it. Hefeweizen banana and clove phenolics are said to benefit from under pitching and no oxygenation, aside from choice of ferment temp, perhaps English bitters and other styles with some yeast forward flavour do benefit from less oxygen. Perhaps all this enthusiasm for 02ing wort is driven by Lager breweries and 'clean' IPA styles. Interested to know if the commercial breweries are manipulating oxygenation rates for different styles of beer.


The last time I used 1469 (with starter) I oxygenated for 1 min at 1L/min. Tasted great, all of those yeast esters were there in abundance. I wouldn't go any further with the oxygen than that.


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## Brownsworthy

MHB said:


> Hell you can get electrolytic units that break up water, lots of options, the simplest, cheapest, most reliable and available option is a bottle.
> 
> "The oxygen on planes is chemicaly produced." Really, frankly I doubt it having seen plenty of O2 bottles mounted on large aircraft, (the fighters at the air force base near here use liquid oxygen) there might be some emergency temporary O2 supplies that use chemical generators but its far from standard as far as I know.
> Mark


The oxygen masks that drop down from the roof in an emergency do still have a small yellow gas canister but that canister is activated by a chemical reaction within it to produce oxygen when activated.


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## manticle

wynnum1 said:


> The oxygen is given off could be collected in a bag.
> The oxygen on planes is chemicaly produced.


What kind of a bag? How do you know you only have pure oxygen (a very reactive element)?
How do you get it from bag to wort?


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## wynnum1

Plastic food grade bag secure bag in the bottom of a drum with a hose attached and fill the drum with water to push the oxygen out of the bag.


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## manticle

No.


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## wynnum1

Why not .


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## manticle

Try it.
Sounds like you know what you're doing.


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## MHB

Paraphrased

Try it.
Sounds like you ᴧthink you know what you're doing.


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## technobabble66

Well, he only needs 1 litre of O2. 
Sounds like a great idea. Keen to hear how it goes!
Could you please post pics of your attempts? I'm curious to see this bag collection in a drum setup. I assume you've got something in mind to stop the bag of O2 from simply floating above the water? Why not just squeeze the bag, out of interest?



Back to more important things though: 
What happening with the elephants' toothpaste?!


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## MastersBrewery

I blame this thread! Last night everything ready to pitch, get out the O2 kit, and nothin, bloody thing leaked! So a bloody good shake or four with the split in the fermenter, rest will go in on Krausen. I don't mind double dropping but O2 is way easier and quicker.


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## Chridech

GalBrew said:


> The last time I used 1469 (with starter) I oxygenated for 1 min at 1L/min. Tasted great, all of those yeast esters were there in abundance. I wouldn't go any further with the oxygen than that.


I will try 60 instead of 90 secs at 1L/min for my next Bitter. 90 secs has been woking well for me using Wy 1056 and Saisons 3724/3711 when I'm aiming for a dry finish.


----------



## danestead

MHB said:


> "The oxygen on planes is chemicaly produced." Really, frankly I doubt it having seen plenty of O2 bottles mounted on large aircraft, (the fighters at the air force base near here use liquid oxygen) there might be some emergency temporary O2 supplies that use chemical generators but its far from standard as far as I know.
> Mark


The medical oxygen bottles on aeroplanes is exactly that - bottled oxygen. The drop down masks on aeroplanes, Boeings anyway - I can't speak for others, use chemically created oxygen. The PBEs (fire fighting hood) has an oxygen generator on the back of it, which chemically creates oxygen.

The normal air you breathe on aeroplanes is just air from outside the aeroplane.


----------



## danestead

GalBrew said:


> The last time I used 1469 (with starter) I oxygenated for 1 min at 1L/min. Tasted great, all of those yeast esters were there in abundance. I wouldn't go any further with the oxygen than that.


Out of interest, as I don't have a flow meter on my oxygen bottle, what does 1L/min look like on the surface of your wort? I turn the oxygen on enough that it is just breaking the surface with bubbles. Would this be close to what your flow rate gives?


----------



## GalBrew

danestead said:


> Out of interest, as I don't have a flow meter on my oxygen bottle, what does 1L/min look like on the surface of your wort? I turn the oxygen on enough that it is just breaking the surface with bubbles. Would this be close to what your flow rate gives?


That's pretty close to what it looks like. It's definitely not like a rolling boil or anything that extreme. I should take a video of it next time i brew.


----------



## timmi9191

danestead said:


> The normal air you breathe on aeroplanes is just air from outside the aeroplane.


Only if you plan on a rapid death!!


----------



## danestead

timmi9191 said:


> Only if you plan on a rapid death!!


Ok, prove me wrong.


----------



## timmi9191

*Time of Useful Consciousness*

This is the time available to an aircrew member to recognize they are suffering from hypoxia and to take appropriate action (put on an oxygen mask and/or descend the aircraft below 10,000 feet). 

The Time of Useful Consciousness is a function of altitude. At 20,000 feet, an average individual will have 5 to 12 minutes. At 25,000 feet, this time is reduced to 3 to 5 minutes. At 30,000 feet only 1 to 2 minutes are available. By 40,000 feet, the average individual will have only 9 to 15 seconds (basically this represents the oxygen that was in their system before the exposure to 40,000 feet).


----------



## danestead

timmi9191 said:


> *Time of Useful Consciousness*
> 
> This is the time available to an aircrew member to recognize they are suffering from hypoxia and to take appropriate action (put on an oxygen mask and/or descend the aircraft below 10,000 feet).
> 
> The Time of Useful Consciousness is a function of altitude. At 20,000 feet, an average individual will have 5 to 12 minutes. At 25,000 feet, this time is reduced to 3 to 5 minutes. At 30,000 feet only 1 to 2 minutes are available. By 40,000 feet, the average individual will have only 9 to 15 seconds (basically this represents the oxygen that was in their system before the exposure to 40,000 feet).



If you were breathing air at the density of the outside air, you would be absolutely correct; however, the air inside an aeroplane goes through a few processes first.

The reason you don't suffocate due to lack of density of the air is because aeroplanes are pressurised. Air is pumped into the aeroplane until a determined pressure is reached, and then air is allowed to escape the aeroplane at a controlled rate to maintain that pressure.

So basically, the air you breathe in an aeroplane is air from outside that has been pumped into the aeroplane quicker than it has been allowed to escape. It is also filtered and has the temperature controlled.

The air inside an aeroplane is not bottled oxygen, not chemically created oxygen, it is outside air.


----------



## timmi9191

danestead said:


> .
> 
> The normal air you breathe on aeroplanes is just air from outside the aeroplane.





danestead said:


> If you were breathing air at the density of the outside air, you would be absolutely correct; however, the air inside an aeroplane goes through a few processes first.


So its not just air from the outside..


----------



## danestead

timmi9191 said:


> So its not just air from the outside..


The basis of the initial discussion was comparing bottled oxygen, chemically created oxygen and air. In that broad sense, the air you breathe on an aeroplane is air. If you want to disagree and say that "air from outside the aeroplane" is different to the "air from outside the aeroplane" put through a filter, temperature controller and squeezed into an aeroplane, you are welcome. I however, think that that air is generally the same, aside from temperature and density; something not relevant to aerating wort.


----------



## Zorco

danestead said:


> Ok, prove me wrong.


Maybe you're talking about different scenarios. Both could be right given the level of detail here. But argue more specifically and I think you both will find agreement quick enough.

I learnt from my pilot mate that they pressurise the cabin to the equivalent of about 6000ft . No O2 is added. New airliners are aiming to bring the pressure up higher for better comfort / less dehydration .


----------



## Zorco

timmi9191 said:


> *Time of Useful Consciousness*
> 
> This is the time available to an aircrew member to recognize they are suffering from hypoxia and to take appropriate action (put on an oxygen mask and/or descend the aircraft below 10,000 feet).
> 
> The Time of Useful Consciousness is a function of altitude. At 20,000 feet, an average individual will have 5 to 12 minutes. At 25,000 feet, this time is reduced to 3 to 5 minutes. At 30,000 feet only 1 to 2 minutes are available. By 40,000 feet, the average individual will have only 9 to 15 seconds (basically this represents the oxygen that was in their system before the exposure to 40,000 feet).


I find this effect of humans fascinating.

http://m.wimp.com/hypoxia-when-the-brain-is-deprived-of-adequate-oxygen-supply/


----------



## jphowman

wynnum1 said:


> The oxygen is given off could be collected in a bag.
> The oxygen on planes is chemicaly produced.


You might be thinking of KO2

It's the stuff found in self rescuers that need to be worn when going into an underground mine.
Apparently the reaction in quite exothermic, and have been known to get hot enough to burn people while they are in use.

Probably still more expensive than bottled O2 though


----------



## manticle

I want to see someone separate oxygen from hydrogen peroxide, created by adding sodium percarbonate to hot water and collect that oxygen in a bag, stick a hose on the bag and then float the bag in some water to oxygenate some wort.
Post pics or a youtube video and if you can, try and measure with a DO meter too.


----------



## mofox1

manticle said:


> I want to see someone separate oxygen from hydrogen peroxide, created by adding sodium percarbonate to hot water and collect that oxygen in a bag, stick a hose on the bag and then float the bag in some water to oxygenate some wort.
> Post pics or a youtube video and if you can, try and measure with a DO meter too.


I'm generally just amused when people light their farts. ^That seems like a whole lotta effort.


----------



## TheWiggman

Came in here to read up on the wort aeration kits thread. Have been given a bum steer. Abandoning.


----------



## wynnum1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592



Investigation
The NTSB investigation[1] eventually determined that the fire that downed Flight 592 began in a cargo compartment below the passenger cabin. The cargo compartment was a Class D design, in which fire suppression is accomplished by sealing off the hold from outside air. Any fire in such an airtight compartment would quickly exhaust all available oxygen and then burn itself out. As the fire suppression is accomplished without any intervention by the crew, such holds are not equipped with smoke detectors. However, the NTSB determined that just before takeoff, over 100[14] expired chemical oxygen generators were placed in the cargo compartment in five boxes marked *COMAT* (company material) by ValuJet's maintenance contractor, SabreTech, in contravention of FAA regulations forbidding the transport of hazardous materials in aircraft cargo holds. Failure to cover the generators' firing pins with the prescribed plastic caps made an accidental activation much more likely. The investigation revealed that rather than covering the firing pins, the SabreTech workers simply duct-taped the cords around the cans, or cut them, and used tape to stick the ends down. The cylindrical, tennis-ball-can-sized generators also may have been loaded on board in the mistaken belief that they were just empty canisters, thus being certified as safe to transport in an aircraft cargo compartment. SabreTech employees indicated on the cargo manifest that the "oxy canisters" were "empty" instead of being expired oxygen generators. ValuJet employees interpreted this to mean they were empty oxygen canisters, when in fact they were neither simple oxygen canisters, nor empty.[15] A worker then loosely packed the oxygen canisters in several cardboard boxes with a layer of bubble wrap.
Chemical oxygen generators, when activated, produce oxygen for passengers if the plane suffers an decompression. As a byproduct of the exothermic chemical reaction, they also produce a great quantity of heat. These two factors together were sufficient not only to start an accidental fire, but also to produce enough oxygen to keep the fire burning. The fire risk was made much worse by the presence of combustible aircraft wheels in the hold. Two main tires (one not mounted) and a nose tire and wheel were also included in the list of material shipped as COMAT. NTSB investigators theorized that when the plane experienced a slight jolt while taxiing on the runway, an oxygen generator activated, producing oxygen and heat. Over time, as the DC-9 was taxiing to its takeoff position, the surface of the activated generator got hotter and hotter. Soon, the heat ignited the cardboard box and bubble wrap, allowing the fire to start.
Laboratory testing showed that canisters of the same type could heat nearby materials up to 500 °F (260 °C), enough to ignite a smoldering fire. The oxygen from the generators fed the resulting fire in the cargo hold without any need for outside air, defeating the airtight fire suppression design.


----------



## manticle

Ctrl c is strong with this one.


----------



## gap

Yes, the post has punctuation marks.


----------



## MastersBrewery

So safe to say chemically oxygenating wort on an airbourne aircraft is ill advised. 
Good to know. Wasn't on my list of brewing must dos, think I'll play it safe and continue to brew on terraferma.


----------



## Mardoo

Can this conversation find somewhere else to live?


----------



## Zorco

I think it has been an excellent evolution/excursion from the original topic.

The caliber of the AHB community is impressive. 

So, this is a different wort aeration solution.

I was at a roadside giveaway and the property rep had a huge O2 cylinder inside (like chest high). So I was interested and took the cylinder home. Upon setting it up with not much experience - savvy enough to tie it up and be highly respectful of compressed fluids - I test opened the valve (no stem or reg) and there was gas inside still.

Beauty. Free O2. But I have just put on a birthday party for my son, ordered kegs with Yob et.al. and I don't have funds for the regulator setup yet.

But since I wanted to oxygenate my wort for the first time, I found a 1/2" BSP fitting with compression to beerline on the other end then teflon taped the beheezus out of it and installed. 

Choke flow (and a good valve) means I can deliver O2 at a sensible rate.

I'm not that pleased with my risk taking but on the same hand, it feels sound. I've ordered an O2 reg kit for next month's pay and all will be good from now on.

Not sure if there are risks I've overlooked so happy for feedback.

Cheers


----------



## Chridech

danestead said:


> Out of interest, as I don't have a flow meter on my oxygen bottle, what does 1L/min look like on the surface of your wort? I turn the oxygen on enough that it is just breaking the surface with bubbles. Would this be close to what your flow rate gives?


Oxygenating today's brew. 1L/min using a medical oxygen reg. and a 2 micron scintered stone. Here's what it looks like. Bubbles break the surface and mound up by approx 2cm in a 5cm radius. Good layer of foam across the whole wort after a minute.

https://vimeo.com/168523215


----------



## danestead

Chridech said:


> Oxygenating today's brew. 1L/min using a medical oxygen reg. and a 2 micron scintered stone. Here's what it looks like. Bubbles break the surface and mound up by approx 2cm in a 5cm radius. Good layer of foam across the whole wort after a minute.
> 
> https://vimeo.com/168523215


Cool, cheers. I think I aerate slightly less than that.


----------



## GalBrew

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> I think it has been an excellent evolution/excursion from the original topic.
> 
> The caliber of the AHB community is impressive.
> 
> So, this is a different wort aeration solution.
> 
> I was at a roadside giveaway and the property rep had a huge O2 cylinder inside (like chest high). So I was interested and took the cylinder home. Upon setting it up with not much experience - savvy enough to tie it up and be highly respectful of compressed fluids - I test opened the valve (no stem or reg) and there was gas inside still.
> 
> Beauty. Free O2. But I have just put on a birthday party for my son, ordered kegs with Yob et.al. and I don't have funds for the regulator setup yet.
> 
> But since I wanted to oxygenate my wort for the first time, I found a 1/2" BSP fitting with compression to beerline on the other end then teflon taped the beheezus out of it and installed.
> 
> Choke flow (and a good valve) means I can deliver O2 at a sensible rate.
> 
> I'm not that pleased with my risk taking but on the same hand, it feels sound. I've ordered an O2 reg kit for next month's pay and all will be good from now on.
> 
> Not sure if there are risks I've overlooked so happy for feedback.
> 
> Cheers


I wouldn't be doing that. I would only use proper oxygen rated equipment with oxygen, it's not the safest stuff.


----------



## wynnum1

"huge O2 cylinder " Even if the tank is out of date would think that using as a air tank and decanting oxygen from oxygen cylinder through regulator would be safe as would be fraction of its original rating .


----------



## Crusty

For those of you that have the Brewman wort oxygenation setup, does the regulator allow you to set a certain flow indicated by the gauge or is the gauge simply to show you how much gas you have left in the cylinder.
I'm looking into oxygen at the moment but the simple regulator that screws onto a Bernzomatic cylinder might be adequate unless the Brewman setup has some advantages. The Bernzomatic cylinders are easily obtainable just up the road from me so it's easier to get if I run out.
Who has what & why did you go that way?

edit: 2 or 0.5 micron stone?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> To economise o2 usage, is it our objective to just purge the headspace of our fermentation vessel with o2 and allow the diffusion gradient to do its thing?


IMO that's a less than ideal way to go, greatly increases the chances of involvement from acetic acid bugs which love to form a film on top of the medium. Also as soon as fermentation does start it will rapidly purge the headspace so you'll never know how much you got.



zorsoc_cosdog said:


> If we have a headspace of, say, 50% the volume of our wort, is that sufficient to strengthen yeast count/viability? More/less?


If you mean that the headspace is 100% oxygen no, oxygen has a density of 1.55 g /l at STP so 0.5 litres O2 per litre of wort is almost 0.8 g/l, about 100 times what you want. (See below).
.


zorsoc_cosdog said:


> What is our target dissolved oxygen percentage?


Generally 8-10 mg O2 / litre wort for standard beers, you'll need more for things like Belgian strong ales fermented with Wyeast 1388.
1 mg / l = 1 ppm = 0.0001%




zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Edit: I read the tip at the bottom of Bribie's post. I'm not sure that I understand the correlation of time to ppm yet.


From the above: if you know your O2 flow rate in litres per minute (and if you don't you can measure it, see here): Multiply the flow rate in l / min by 1.55 to give mg / min. Divide that figure into the volume of wort and multiply by the required oxygenation level, the result is the required flow time.

The problem with the above is that it assumes that all the oxygen added goes into solution, if you are oxygenating in line that's probably close to the truth but if you are oxygenating in tank it isn't.

Experience shows that you need around 2 metres of column height for 100% absorption and that's with the finest pore sizes available, with standard pore sizes like 0.5um it's more like 4 metres. Obviously you;re not going to get that in a cube so you have to guesstimate the wastage level.

Just to be clear: many O2 flow meters are calibrated for a delivery pressure, it's marked on the flow meter: IIRC BOC ones are at 4 Bar gauge. This means they'll deliver a different quantity if run at a different pressure*.This doesn't apply to medical types, they are pressure compensated.


* For fun and games, the calculation for compensation is actual flow = metered flow x (delivery pressure + 1 bar) / (calibration pressure + 1 bar)


----------



## Zorco

I am absolutely grateful for the thoroughness of your answers and generosity to share.

I have more question but will reflect on the details of your info for a while first.


----------



## Bribie G

The Brewman's regulator is really just the equivalent of the "red wedge" dial on your CO2 regulator without the other "keg side" dial. So it's really there to show you if there's any oxygen left in the cylinder.
I just open the tap a crack and oxygenate for a minute using a flow that just about breaks the surface of the wort without massive foaming as I stir the tube around.
Probably not quite as much as the video posted earlier.

I believe another sponsor has a reg without a dial and you just do it "by eye" when oxygenating... cheaper setup.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

There's a mistake in the above: the density of oxygen is incorrect, it's around 1.45 g/l not 1.55 as stated.

Sorry for the error, I was working from memory and didn't check.


----------



## MHB

The way bubbles form is very interesting, it isn't really the size of the hole that makes the bubble larger or smaller.
You cant see anything much smaller than 1/4mm (250um) yet we can all see the bubbles forming on a 2 or 0.5um airstone.
Frankly the pore size isn't all that important, the problem with 0.5um air stones is that they are so fragile, easy to block up and hard to sterilise that I think the 2um is a much better choice. 



Mark


----------



## SBOB

As an FYI, I had some Bunnings vouchers to use, I ended up piecing together an aeration kit from scratch, so for reference you can piece together the following knowing that it will work (And you may already have some bits lying around etc). 

Tradeflame 930ml Oxygen Gas Cartridge - $53.86 (https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-930ml-oxygen-gas-cartridge_p5910241) 
Regulator - $39 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/112007105123) 
0.5 Micron Aeration Stone - $15 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/291726879464) 
Stainless Tube - $2.50 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221946049524) 
Silicon Tube - $1.66 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/311393611165) 
1mx5mm Gas Line -$2 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-5-mm-Beer-line-Flexmaster-II-Tubing-Food-Grade-/250562209516 - bought pickup) 

Total - ~$115

This gave me an aeration setup with a stainless 'wand' type setup.
Setup goes

Gas Bottle -> Regulator -> 5mm Gas Line -> Stainless Tube -> Silicon Tube(few cm) -> Aeration Stone


First run on the weekend and seemed to work pretty well/as expected.


----------



## Crusty

Bribie G said:


> The Brewman's regulator is really just the equivalent of the "red wedge" dial on your CO2 regulator without the other "keg side" dial. So it's really there to show you if there's any oxygen left in the cylinder.
> I just open the tap a crack and oxygenate for a minute using a flow that just about breaks the surface of the wort without massive foaming as I stir the tube around.
> Probably not quite as much as the video posted earlier.
> 
> I believe another sponsor has a reg without a dial and you just do it "by eye" when oxygenating... cheaper setup.


Thanks for the info Bribie.



SBOB said:


> As an FYI, I had some Bunnings vouchers to use, I ended up piecing together an aeration kit from scratch, so for reference you can piece together the following knowing that it will work (And you may already have some bits lying around etc).
> 
> Tradeflame 930ml Oxygen Gas Cartridge - $53.86 (https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-930ml-oxygen-gas-cartridge_p5910241)
> Regulator - $39 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/112007105123)
> 0.5 Micron Aeration Stone - $15 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/291726879464)
> Stainless Tube - $2.50 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221946049524)
> Silicon Tube - $1.66 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/311393611165)
> 1mx5mm Gas Line -$2 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-5-mm-Beer-line-Flexmaster-II-Tubing-Food-Grade-/250562209516 - bought pickup)
> 
> Total - ~$115
> 
> This gave me an aeration setup with a stainless 'wand' type setup.
> Setup goes
> 
> Gas Bottle -> Regulator -> 5mm Gas Line -> Stainless Tube -> Silicon Tube(few cm) -> Aeration Stone
> 
> 
> First run on the weekend and seemed to work pretty well/as expected.


I like the ebay regulator idea as you can use it with the bigger tradeflame oxygen cylinders as opposed to the Bernzomatic cylinder that uses a different regulator fitting. I think I'll go this way & just order a 0.5micron oxy wand from one of the sponsors above. Under $150.00 so not too bad.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

MHB said:


> The way bubbles form is very interesting, it isn't really the size of the hole that makes the bubble larger or smaller.
> You cant see anything much smaller than 1/4mm (250um) yet we can all see the bubbles forming on a 2 or 0.5um airstone.
> Frankly the pore size isn't all that important, the problem with 0.5um air stones is that they are so fragile, easy to block up and hard to sterilise that I think the 2um is a much better choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Fig-3-VOF-simulations-of-bubble-formation-at-a-single-orifice-of-internal-diameter-09.png
> Mark


There's been a bunch of research on this in wine re microoxygenation, the conclusion has been that pore size and surface energy are the most important performance parameters.

There's also good practical evidence that there's a direct relationship between pore size and minimum column height with stainless steel sinters, which have moderately high surface energy. I can't see why this wouldn't apply equally to wort but as usual I'm all ears if you know of any research done on the topic.


----------



## MHB

CBA spending a lot of time looking.
There are plenty of reports on measured O2 concentrations using both 0.5 and 2um stones. reportedly there isn't much if any difference at a home brew scale - low head, similar gravities, same materials, similar flow rates...
I can see high head and in-line sheer forces changing that, especially flow where the bubbles could be sheered off the stone before reaching full size.
Mark


----------



## Zorco

What about O2 injection velocity? High gas flow rates might throw off smaller bubbles?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

MHB said:


> especially flow where the bubbles could be sheered off the stone before reaching full size.



Thinking about it, that might be a possible difference between wort and wine: the flow rates used in mox are very, very low so the individual bubbles have longer to detach.

Also the diffusers with pores sizes < 0.5 um that I mentioned above have an extra low surface energy treatment applied: the manufacturer won't divulge exactly what it is but it feels like the teflon coating used on industrial rollers. Apparently this promotes bubble detachment.

As you say, none of this is relevant to oxygenating a cube but I think it's interesting anyway.


----------



## JDW81

FWIW you can get a simple O2 set up from grain and grape for about $110. You get an aeration stone, hose and air filter, a simple regulator and a 40g O2 bottle.


----------



## SBOB

More basic reg and half the O2 compared to diy or brewman kits though


----------



## Crusty

I went with the ebay regulator that SBOB linked..$39.25 ( has L/min gauge )
A 0.5 micron stone SS Oxy wand from CraftBrewer..$47.50
A tradeflame 930ml oxygen cylinder from Bunnings ( 110L of oxygen )...$53.86
Although slightly dearer at $140.61 compared to the $110.00 setup from Grain & Grape, I thinks it's a much better option that allows you to use the larger oxygen cylinder. At a couple of L/min & running it for a minute, that's 55 brews which is less than $1.00 per brew. Cheap enough for me.


----------



## Bribie G

As no doubt mentioned in previous posts another advantage of oxygen is that your starters will fire up like Donald Trump onto a Muslim.


----------



## Aus_Rider_22

Bribie G said:


> As no doubt mentioned in previous posts another advantage of oxygen is that your starters will fire up like Donald Trump onto a Muslim.


 Hi Bribie.

Have you noticed an improvement in taste with your aerated beers compared to non? Other than fasting starting and finishing? Cheers.


----------



## Bribie G

Well let's see how they do at the NSW comp this coming weekend B) B)

Definitely cleaner with less impression of unwanted esters / fusels etc, especially lagers.


----------



## bradsbrew

I am interested to see how the latest batch goes now that I have moved to starters and oxygen. Have an ESB on wy1968 currently going nuts at 18 deg, hopefully it won't do a Sally Robbins before the work is done.


----------



## MichaelM

I wonder how much aeration would improve compared to using an air pump by using a spray adaptor like one of these. https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Brewing-BE510-Siphon-Aerator/dp/B00ODSS5J8


----------



## Crusty

MichaelM said:


> I wonder how much aeration would improve compared to using an air pump by using a spray adaptor like one of these. https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Brewing-BE510-Siphon-Aerator/dp/B00ODSS5J8


The only way to get maximum aeration into your wort is to use compressed oxygen.
You can spray the wort into your fermenter, shake the fermenter till the cows come home & a whole heap of other alternatives but oxygen will give you the most saturation possible. I ferment in a stainless keg & although not the ideal, I quite often have to fill the fermenter at higher than pitching temps & place it in the fermenting fridge. Sometimes I'm not pitching for 3 or 4 hours later or more & although I try & shake the heck out of it, it's bloody heavy. The new setup will simply allow me to place the sanitized wand into the fermenter & run it for 60sec then pitch. I often get a bit of lag time before fermentation starts kicking off & my last brew was about 18hrs in before I saw any airlock activity. This is way too long for my liking & although I haven't picked up on any faults or off flavours with my beers, I'm confident that the lag time will be greatly reduced & the beers will be even better than they are now.


----------



## Bribie G

MichaelM said:


> I wonder how much aeration would improve compared to using an air pump by using a spray adaptor like one of these. https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Brewing-BE510-Siphon-Aerator/dp/B00ODSS5J8


Wow that rings a bell, I used to have one of those, from Craftbrewer. I used it a couple of times but after drenching my shoes then the thing fell off the tube it was attached to and ended in the wort... I think a kitten ran off with it eventually h34r:


----------



## Mardoo

MichaelM said:


> I wonder how much aeration would improve compared to using an air pump by using a spray adaptor like one of these. https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Brewing-BE510-Siphon-Aerator/dp/B00ODSS5J8


IIRC 8mg/l of O2 is the max you can get using air. 12mg/l of O2 is said to be ideal. Then again this is both difficult to achieve even with O2, and strain dependent.

That said, any aeration is good aeration, as long as it's not introducing nasties.


----------



## eldertaco

Anyone know if there's adapters available to connect the bernzomatic-style gaugeless reg to a tradeflame bottle? The bernzomatic cylinders have always seemed like such a waste of metal for such a measly amount of O2, but since I already have a reg and don't mind that I can't dial in a specific output pressure I don't really see the point in buying a new one if I can get an adapter.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Mardoo said:


> IIRC 8mg/l of O2 is the max you can get using air.


That's the O2 concentration in water at equilibrium with air at STP. You can get more at lower temperatures or higher pressures, Henry's Law applies. As noted somewhere above, if you sparge with air the nitrogen tends to knock some of the O2 out so it's very difficult to actually reach equilibrium.



Mardoo said:


> 12mg/l of O2 is said to be ideal. Then again this is both difficult to achieve even with O2, and strain dependent.
> 
> That said, any aeration is good aeration, as long as it's not introducing nasties.


12 mg /l is probably around the average of ideal levels, as you note it's strain and wort dependent. I use 8-10 unless I know it's going to need more in which case I'll usually just do it again 12 hours later rather than trying to hit it all in one go.

Then again it's easy for me to do that: as long as I've remembered to autoclave the oxygenation set up I just stick it on the end of my oxy acetylene torch and fire away.

Yes, I make sure the acetylene is off first. That shit costs money.


----------



## Crusty

Here's my setup.
Just got to get some 1/4" tube & it's a goer.


----------



## sp0rk

Anyone seen these?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/282095461420?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
would just need a 3/8" BSP female to 6mm barb I guess


----------



## MHB

The fact that its a LEFT HAND thread would make finding an adaptor very entertaining!
M


----------



## Crusty

sp0rk said:


> Anyone seen these?
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/282095461420?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> would just need a 3/8" BSP female to 6mm barb I guess


I got my regulator that has a L/min gauge for $39.25, free postage.
I give it a run this afternoon in some starsan @2 & 3L/min. It works perfectly.
I'll be giving it a proper run on my next brew in a couple of weeks.


----------



## SBOB

Yep... That regulator is a bargain and seems to work pretty well (with at least some form of flow rate gauge)


----------



## Coldspace

SBOB said:


> Yep... That regulator is a bargain and seems to work pretty well (with at least some form of flow rate gauge)


Tks guys for your imput , and ebay links, I've just ordered my gear and will buy a trade flame bottle from bunnings. Keen to get into some lager brewing in spring for summertime. My lagers last year were pretty good, but oxygen should make them better.

Cheers guys


----------



## Crusty

Coldspace said:


> Tks guys for your imput , and ebay links, I've just ordered my gear and will buy a trade flame bottle from bunnings. Keen to get into some lager brewing in spring for summertime. My lagers last year were pretty good, but oxygen should make them better.
> 
> Cheers guys


Did you go for an oxy wand or hose & stone?


----------



## SBOB

Crusty said:


> Did you go for an oxy wand or hose & stone?


A stone + $2 stainless tube from ebay = oxy wand alternative


----------



## Coldspace

I bought all the same gear oldmate SBOB put up the links. Looks great and good cost. Reg arrived today. Just waiting on other pits to arrive. 
Cheers


----------



## Mall

Crusty said:


> Here's my setup.
> Just got to get some 1/4" tube & it's a goer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160817_171809.jpg


Crusty, purchased from?


----------



## Crusty

Mall said:


> Crusty, purchased from?


Tradeflame oxygen cylinder from Bunnings....Here
Craftbrewer 0.5 micron stone oxy wand...Here
Regulator from Bob the Welder on ebay....Here
I'm very happy with this setup.


----------



## mstrelan

FWIW i messaged Bob the Welder and he suggested the regulator is not compatible with Tradeflame O2 bottles, specifically he said only Bossweld cylinders.


----------



## Crusty

mstrelan said:


> FWIW i messaged Bob the Welder and he suggested the regulator is not compatible with Tradeflame O2 bottles, specifically he said only Bossweld cylinders.


In what way.
It screws straight on & works perfectly.
The Tradeflame cylinder has an M10 thread as does the regulator from Bob.


----------



## SBOB

he's wrong 
Its a standard M10 thread

Its branded Bossweld so clearly fits those, but standard threads are, well, kinda standard

Plus, based on his listing details he doesnt come across as the cheery helpful kind of guy


----------



## mstrelan

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## mstrelan

I found what appears to be the same regulator in a package with a 110L O2 for the same price, so you can skip the trip to Bunnings if you prefer - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/111621305999


----------



## SBOB

mstrelan said:


> I found what appears to be the same regulator in a package with a 110L O2 for the same price, so you can skip the trip to Bunnings if you prefer - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/111621305999


thats exactly the same reg (i did a heap of comparing before buying the one i linked to, cross referencing pics/model numbers etc)
at $98 its slightly more than buying separate though (~$5) , depending on how much of a tightass you are


----------



## rude

I like this thread lads gunner go down this road once funds come good

What about an in line filter anyone using one ?

Im still to organise my pressure ferment keg but once I do was going to inject o2 then shake the keg rather than using a 0.5 stone any thoughts on this

cheers Rude


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

rude said:


> What about an in line filter anyone using one ?


Yes, I have an inline 0.22 micron filter and the oxygen sinter on a short silicone hose. I simply autoclave this every time it's used: I wrap it in foil before autoclaving and and store it wrapped until next use.


----------



## Crusty

rude said:


> I like this thread lads gunner go down this road once funds come good
> 
> What about an in line filter anyone using one ?
> 
> Im still to organise my pressure ferment keg but once I do was going to inject o2 then shake the keg rather than using a 0.5 stone any thoughts on this
> 
> cheers Rude


No need for an inline filter if you go for an oxygen tank. The inline filters are more for purifying the air when using an aquarium pump to oxygenate if that's what you were referring to. You certainly don't want dirty air added to your wort. I think you'll get far better oxygen saturation by running it for a period of time against running it for a much shorter time & then trying to shake the fermenter. It couldn't be any simpler than setting your required L/Min then turning it off after the time you want. I don't pressure ferment but I have a 50L keg as a fermenter. I use a sanke fermenting kit & once I'm done cold crashing, I transfer the wort to a keg or bottling bucket using Co2. I think the 0.5 micron stone is well worth the investment with the oxy wand.


----------



## fishingbrad

good price on the reg. I paid twice that through a plumbing supplies 2year ago.

Does anyone else disconnect the cylinder after every use. I lost my 1st bottle (within a month) too a slow leak even though the reg was 0 pressure position/ dial all the way out. It was when I went to buy my 2nd bottle the sales rep told me "disconnect each time as the reg will leak slowly even when the reg dial is out". and thus I've been on this bottle since, given I only use it for lagers and the occasional RIS.

cheers.


----------



## mstrelan

SBOB said:


> thats exactly the same reg (i did a heap of comparing before buying the one i linked to, cross referencing pics/model numbers etc)
> at $98 its slightly more than buying separate though (~$5) , depending on how much of a tightass you are


The $39 reg is now listed at $43, so now less than $1 more, which you would have spent on a sausage at Bunnings anyway.


----------



## rude

Thanks for reply Crusty will go that route


----------



## Crusty

rude said:


> Thanks for reply Crusty will go that route


You'll be more than happy with that choice.
A big thanks to SBOB for the original links & prices.


----------



## Benn

Brewers, in particular those cobbling parts together from components that may or may not be intended for use with high pressure Oxygen.
Downstream/low pressure i.e everything after the regulator, not such a great concern but regulators and valves can be a different story altogether. My understanding comes from my other pastime (technical/cave diving) where we use various gas blends including 100% O2 for decompression. I understand for brewing purposes we are dealing with industrial components but the fundamentals are the same.
Rather than post links to text that no one will read,  if you're piecing together parts to build an oxygenation setup just have a couple of quick google searches, for eg. "O2 clean" "oxygen compatible" "oxygen regulator danger" etc.
I'm all for DIY, often to a fault  but sometimes I wish I'd read the "instructions" first. Oxygen is pretty serious stuff.
Cheers.


----------



## Rambo

Is there a specific issue you have with the regulater being linked to in this thread that now seems to be gaining popularity? Everything else is downstream from there and therefore low pressure yeah? I'm thinking of putting together one of these "kits" linked to by SBOB, but would be happy to hear any concerns you have.
Cheers


----------



## SBOB

Benn said:


> Brewers, in particular those cobbling parts together from components that may or may not be intended for use with high pressure Oxygen.
> Downstream/low pressure i.e everything after the regulator, not such a great concern but regulators and valves can be a different story altogether. My understanding comes from my other pastime (technical/cave diving) where we use various gas blends including 100% O2 for decompression. I understand for brewing purposes we are dealing with industrial components but the fundamentals are the same.
> Rather than post links to text that no one will read  if your piecing together parts to build an oxygenation setup just have a couple of quick google searches, for eg. "O2 clean" "oxygen compatible" "oxygen regulator danger" etc.
> I'm all for DIY, often to a fault  but sometimes I wish I'd read the "instructions" first. Oxygen is pretty serious stuff.
> Cheers.


the regulator i linked to is sold as a regulator suitable for their disposable cylinders, including Argon, Argon/CO2, CO2 and O2. It's designed for portable setups that welders etc use which is why its compatible with the various gas types (and the portable 1L/2L bottles they sell of those)

but as always, people should be covering their own ass and doing research as you said (along with using common sense when using these things... i.e. dont smoke over the opening to your fermenter while waving the oxygen gas around  )


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

I just looked it up (http://www.dynaweld.com.au/disposable-gas-bottles/234-bossgas-disposable-gas-bottle-regulator.html) and I have a problem with it: it doesn't seem to have been designed for oxygen use.

Using equipment not designed for O2 on pressurised O2 is a real safety problem: things that you think of as inert, like oil or the rubber gaskets in the regulator, become very flammable in pressurised O2. Ignition can be provided by a static discharge from dry gas flow.

Get a proper O2 regulator, designed for the job. It will always have USE NO OIL on it.


----------



## Crusty

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I just looked it up (http://www.dynaweld.com.au/disposable-gas-bottles/234-bossgas-disposable-gas-bottle-regulator.html) and I have a problem with it: it doesn't seem to have been designed for oxygen use.
> 
> Using equipment not designed for O2 on pressurised O2 is a real safety problem: things that you think of as inert, like oil or the rubber gaskets in the regulator, become very flammable in pressurised O2. Ignition can be provided by a static discharge from dry gas flow.
> 
> Get a proper O2 regulator, designed for the job. It will always have USE NO OIL on it.





Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I just looked it up (http://www.dynaweld.com.au/disposable-gas-bottles/234-bossgas-disposable-gas-bottle-regulator.html) and I have a problem with it: it doesn't seem to have been designed for oxygen use.
> 
> Using equipment not designed for O2 on pressurised O2 is a real safety problem: things that you think of as inert, like oil or the rubber gaskets in the regulator, become very flammable in pressurised O2. Ignition can be provided by a static discharge from dry gas flow.
> 
> Get a proper O2 regulator, designed for the job. It will always have USE NO OIL on it.


I might be missing something here but where does it state it's not suitable for oxygen?
The bossgas regulators can be used on any of the disposable gas bottles, including O2.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

I can find no reference to it being rated for O2 on their website or anywhere else. The linky to the gas bottles on the regulator page has Ar, CO2 and mixtures thereof, but no O2.

The fact that the regulator doesn't say "USE NO OIL" is a red flag.

IMO it would be prudent to assume it isn't oxygen safe until shown otherwise.


----------



## manticle

Crusty said:


> I might be missing something here but where does it state it's not suitable for oxygen?
> The bossgas regulators can be used on any of the disposable gas bottles, including O2.


As lyrebird suggests, their disposables don't include O2 - only argon and argon mix for tig and mig.

O2 under pressure is, at the very least worth an email or phone call to the manufacturer to check.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

OK I just looked it up and it's a requirement of the US Regulations: 29CFR ChXVII #1910.253 part 6 para (iii) says:



> Gages _(sic)_ on oxygen regulators shall be marked "USE NO OIL".


Accordingly any regulator with a gauge not so marked would be illegal in the USA. I'll see if I can find a copy of the relevant AS (#4267 I think) to see if applies here as well but I can't see anyone manufacturing a gauge that would be illegal to sell in the USA. This is reinforced by the fact that the actual oxygen regulators from the same maker are properly marked, see http://www.dynaweld.com.au/gas-regulators/111-bossweld-oxygen-gas-regulator.html . 

Edit: while looking for the AS, I came across a message on a US Welding site where someone asked where they could buy the special " N O " oil used on regulators. I _hope_ this was tongue in cheek.


----------



## Crusty

manticle said:


> As lyrebird suggests, their disposables don't include O2 - only argon and argon mix for tig and mig.
> 
> O2 under pressure is, at the very least worth an email or phone call to the manufacturer to check.






You can't use a standard regulator on these that says *use no oil* on the gauge, making it only usable with the bassgas regulator.
I'm certain the more expensive regulators take into consideration the use of bigger cylinders which I believe are under more pressure which will require a better regulator able to withstand said pressure. I think you'll find that any brand of disposable cylinder regulator won't have the* use no* *oil *logo on the gauge.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Crusty said:


> I'm certain the more expensive regulators take into consideration the use of bigger cylinders which I believe are under more pressure


Not a huge difference: the 1 litre cylinder you referenced seems to be charged to 11 MPa, tested to 14.5. A size D oxy cylinder is charged to 14.3 MPa and a size G (the big bastard) is 18 MPa.

Ultimately it's your decision, I just want you to make that decision in possession of the right information.


----------



## SBOB

but as they actively list it in their catalogue in the section with the disposable bottles, as the regulator for those actual bottles, I dont see how it *couldn't* be suitable for use with the oxygen bottle

(jump to page 62 on http://www.dynaweld.com.au/content/16-weldpoint)


----------



## manticle

Crusty said:


> bossgas-disposable-gas-bottle.jpg
> 
> You can't use a standard regulator on these that says *use no oil* on the gauge, making it only usable with the bassgas regulator.
> I'm certain the more expensive regulators take into consideration the use of bigger cylinders which I believe are under more pressure which will require a better regulator able to withstand said pressure. I think you'll find that any brand of disposable cylinder regulator won't have the* use no* *oil *logo on the gauge.


Fair enough. I was looking at the table with part numbers and product description and o2 was not mentioned.


----------



## Crusty

Ok guys, I've just contacted Welders online on the phone & spoke to Mitch regarding the Bossgas regulator for disposable cylinders & *it is perfectly fine* to use to oxygenate our wort with this setup. He informed me though that if you tried to weld with it using oxygen, you wont be here soon after as the regulator diaphragm will most certainly allow flash back to the cylinder causing it to explode. For our purposes though, all good & not a problem whatsoever.


----------



## manticle

Good to know.
cheers


----------



## mstrelan

Thanks Crusty for following up on this. I know very little about this subject but know that O2 can be very dangerous, which is why I wanted to check compatibility.


----------



## Crusty

mstrelan said:


> Thanks Crusty for following up on this. I know very little about this subject but know that O2 can be very dangerous, which is why I wanted to check compatibility.


It's wise to check for sure & I was starting to get a bit worried that I didn't do enough research before hitting the purchase button.
Just don't attempt to weld with oxygen using these regulators, you'll blow yourself sky high. This setup is a pretty good price & just a short trip to Bunnings to get replacement cylinders is pretty handy. Running it for 60sec or so at 2L/min will give you about 55 uses, so it will last quite a while.
I haven't used mine on a beer yet & won't get the chance until we get back from Tasmania. We're heading down there on 21/9 & flying home on the 6/10 so I'll be around the Island for 15 days. I'm hoping to catch up with a few of you guys to put a face to a name whilst we're down there.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Get it in writing.

Seriously, I'm not just being curmudgeonly: if you don't want to void your insurance, get it in writing.


----------



## Crusty

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Get it in writing.
> 
> Seriously, I'm not just being curmudgeonly: if you don't want to void your insurance, get it in writing.


I appreciate your concerns but I'm satisfied that there's no issue whatsoever after speaking with Mitch.
I explained exactly what I was doing & he confirmed the regulator is fine to use. They do sell the Bossgas disposable cylinder regulators which is the setup in question. The regulator is well within the specs for using it with the disposable cylinders so again, it's fine to use. There is no danger of explosion or anything else oxygenating your wort unless you decide to light up a ciggy whilst waiving the oxygen wand around.
I don't think the setup that Brewman sells has got the _*use no oil*_ on the gauge either.


----------



## SBOB

Crusty said:


> I don't think the setup that Brewman sells has got the _*use no oil*_ on the gauge either.


i don't think any regulator aimed at disposables would

The company sells the regs with their own o2 bottles.. thats good enough for me (and likely any insurance company issues or law suits that may arise)


----------



## Crusty

SBOB said:


> i don't think any regulator aimed at disposables would
> 
> The company sells the regs with their own o2 bottles.. thats good enough for me (and likely any insurance company issues or law suits that may arise)


Yeah, I couldn't find any disposable regulators that had it either.
I have no hesitation at all using mine. It works perfectly & I'm looking forward to swinging it into action on my next brew day.


----------



## Rambo

Gee, this all escalated quickly. Thanks for the input everyone, I'm glad the question was asked.


----------



## SBOB

nothing like some constructive posts... beats arguing about climate change


----------



## rude

Im going to take my time on this one its one bonus of being poor

Might save up for well lets say a safer option but will do a lot of reading first

Thanks for highlighting you're concerns Ben


----------



## Benn

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Using equipment not designed for O2 on pressurised O2 is a real safety problem: things that you think of as inert, like oil or the rubber gaskets in the regulator, become very flammable in pressurised O2. Ignition can be provided by a static discharge from dry gas.


LC's post is pretty much it in a nutshell. 

Here's a really short clip to illustrate,
http://youtu.be/SaBghGKAOBo
"Particles" can be as benign as dust contaminants from poor storage of the regulator between cylinder swaps etc.

Here's another short clip that's worth a watch,
http://youtu.be/9lw_fhNAIQc

If the reg is designed for use with "100%" oxygen then one would assume that the regulator body, internal seals and lubricants would have to be oxygen compatible which would appear to be the case with Crusty's reg going on the advice given by the supplier. An LPG or Co2 reg with some sort of adapter... Not so much

I'm all for backyard ingenuity and my previous post was definitely not intended to Nannify anybody's choice on how they administer oxygen to their wort, more a highlighting of the potential risks involved with using oxygen. Most people I'd assume know the basics but if you don't then have a quick google sesh and draw your own conclusions based on your equipment.
Cheers,


----------



## Danscraftbeer

^^ Holy fark! I'm glad I stick to normal procedures and trusted recommendations.

I'll post it again (edited for diplomacy)



> My O2 rig. ~$440 total to set up. Probably last the rest of your brewing life maybe. Or Swap and go is ~$70. It will last long time if you are in it for long time. Or you can get your $200 down payment back if you give up brewing and give the bottle back.






The disconnect is the way I pump it into my kegmenter rather than an air stone. Or you could just use an airstone. I pump in o2 to 5 to 10 psi then lay keg on its side and rock and roll the sealed kegmenter for at least 1 minute, 4 minutes for the exercise.
Then sit in temp control at set pressure relief valve to 5psi for most of the ferment.
My theory is that the brew will take up the o2 it needs at the early stage then will purge the oxygen when the ferment releases Co2.

PS.
Tank from your local hardware stores etc (Bunnings). Oxygen Regulator from Total Tools or other options etc. Post Hoses and disconnects from your home brew store.


----------



## Rambo

I for one appreciated your earlier post highlighting the potential dangers, along with the discussion that followed. I'm certainly much more informed than I was this morning. From crustys call to the supplier I feel the system will be safe, but will certainly do some more research when I get the time.


----------



## Crusty

Ive just rang Dynaweld regarding the said setup & another confirmation that the Bossgas regulator is perfectly fine to use with the disposable oxygen cylinders. I don't need any more convincing than that. Its perfectly safe according to the Australian wholesaler of these regulators.


----------



## MHB

Interesting Vids
I'm driving past my local BOC later, well see if they still have the exploded cylinder on display.

Sounds like spending an extra $50 or so to get a system that is really high quality and made entirely form O2 safe products is pretty cheap life insurance.
Mind you for some the $50 is more important - but they probably fart in falsetto!
Mark


----------



## MHB

Been Done
Mark


----------



## SBOB

MHB said:


> Sounds like spending an extra $50 or so to get a system that is really high quality and made entirely form O2 safe products is pretty cheap life insurance.


but then you're making the assumption that the regulator we are talking about isn't o2 safe, which has been proven not to be the case..

I'm all for people buying Brewman/your setup and supporting the homebrew store, but I didn't as I had left over bunnings vouchers for xmas to get rid of and an ebay promo code to use up (so it ended up 'costing' me about $40 to setup)

But saying that a setup such as that is 'safer' than buying the bits individually isn't necessarily the case... these portable o2 setups aren't rocket science..


----------



## SBOB

Crusty said:


> Ive just rang Dynaweld regarding the said setup & another confirmation that the Bossgas regulator is perfectly fine to use with the disposable oxygen cylinders. I don't need any more convincing than that. Its perfectly safe according to the Australian wholesaler of these regulators.


indeed...
I'm not sure why people would assume that a company that sells portable gas tanks + regulators would (for some reason) decide to sell a regulator that is 'unsafe' to use with one of the range of tanks they sell


----------



## MHB

I really don't give a... what people buy. I have no vested interest in the matter, I do recall however how much care was taken when the system now sold by Brewman was put together. This might be hard to believe but there was next to no profit in selling the system, the return came from having brewers making better beer - I think Steve understands the value of this; see the sale of Handbook of basic brewing calculations - sold at cost (or less) for the same reasons.

As in all things, times change there are lots more options available, some are no doubt good some seriously scary, just take the time and make the effort to be sure that you are making safe choices, look at the build quality, the on-going costs...
Quality products that last and give years of reliable service are often cheaper in the long run than is the system with the lowest up front cost. All I want to get across is that its worth taking the time to evaluate all the variables properly , not just to reflexively go for the low price option - in all fairness that's a pretty common response on AHB.


----------



## Zorco

MHB said:


> Quality products that last and give years of reliable service are often cheaper in the long run than is the system with the lowest up front cost. .


I've found this to be nearly always true.

Cars, shoes, clothes, tools, books; my kids' bike helmets cost $130 each.

Nana taught me this; it started with shoes.

This type of life is only compatible with someone who takes care of their stuff.. And themselves.


----------



## Crusty

MHB said:


> I really don't give a... what people buy. I have no vested interest in the matter


Maybe not but why would you think spending an extra $50.00 on your ex setup makes it higher quality with O2 safe components compared to the Bossgas regulator. The fact of the matter is the Bossgas regulator is totally safe to use & has O2 safe components, just like the Brewman setup. There's no way on earth I'd spend less money & compromise safety for any amount of money. I don't want to blow myself or the kids up by compromising on equipment, it's just not going to happen. So whichever way potential buyers wish to proceed, both setups are safe to use with compressed oxygen cylinders. I did look at the Brewman setup which looks really good but went with the Bossgas regulator simply because it has a L/min gauge. The advantage of the Brewman setup is it will tell you how much gas you have left in the cylinder. The advantage of my setup is the L/min gauge. My oxygen cylinder holds 110L of oxygen & if I use 2L per min for 60sec, It's quite easy to work out that I'll get roughly 55 uses from the cylinder. Didn't the cylinder explode because the wanker loosened the regulator?


----------



## MHB

Couple of points
Apparently you are reading a bit more into what I said than I believe was there. I know precisely what is in the kit I designed and why each choice was made (and yes there were cheaper alternatives). I haven't done the in-depth research into each and every "new" option that has come onto the market since - no longer in the trade so to speak. That said when I was doing the design work there was more than one option, the system I designed was the best balance of quality, reliability and value I could put together, with safety being a major concern.
If you haven't or aren't willing to take the time to make a similar effort, my point is that up front price alone is a very poor criteria on which to base a decision, to have the work done for you is I believe of value. If you don't agree you will make your choices accordingly and take responsibility for the outcomes.

Note that the supplier of the O2 bottle and regulator, in the kit I designed sell a large range of other gasses in disposable bottles, all the rest of the range have a different thread/regulator to prevent dumb mistakes (idiot proofing?)
The Bossgas regulator (assurances by the retailer aside) is listed by the manufacturer (RocFly Shanghai) as a Argon/CO2 regulator with no mention of O2 compatibility.

The other point is that the everything else being equal the diameter of the diaphragm in a regulator is really one of the critical determiners of the regulators accuracy and life expectancy. When the diaphragm goes not only will it (or the whole regulator) need replacing, you will almost certainly loose the contents of the bottle.
Sometimes size matters and one is nearly twice the size of the other - you guess which is which.

I wish you luck with your purchase, but there are real differenced between the various offerings and very good reasons why the prices are different.
And don't some of you guys amp up when anyone suggests that being a tight arse isn't of necessity an unqualified virtue.

Make your own decisions but make sure they are informed decisions that take all the factors into account, not just price - which is what I said in the first place...
Mark


----------



## Crusty

Point taken & I know that you did your homework regarding build quality, safety & price when putting together the now Brewman oxygenation kits.
I don't dispute for one minute about their quality as I'm certain they are a great piece of kit. The cheaper, smaller diaphragm Bossgas regulators are in fact designed & compatible with pressurized cylinders, including oxygen, so I have no hesitation in using one for this purpose. Both retailers, one of which is the Australian distributor for Bossgas, made it quite clear to never weld with this regulator & the diaphragm did get a mention as to not being adequate for flame & could result in a flashback to the cylinder causing an explosion. As we are not doing that & simply supplying oxygen to our wort, there is no such danger & the diaphragm issue is non existent for our purposes. I have also been informed that the regulators are very reliable & will last many, many years as a lot of tradies use this exact kit for mobile onsite applications. The Brewman setup may well be a better quality unit but I'm more than happy with my setup with the L/min gauge & have no hesitation using it. The fact is it's perfectly safe to use with the disposable oxygen cylinders which is all I'm concerned about.


----------



## Exile

I looked at the Ebay bits and pieces and was not convinced of the quality, warranty and safety aspects of them. I went with the Brewman option simply because of the homework MHB had put in over the years.
If any warranty issues happen to come up, I would rather send it to a local place instead of overseas Ebayer or whatever.


----------



## MHB

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
If it was a regulator designed for O2 you could safely use it for welding as that is I would guess what 90+% of the O2 in bottles is used for.
I did spend some time today tracking down the manufacturer and as above it is NOT described as O2 compatible... draw your own conclusions.
Personally without documented evidence I wouldn't regard fitting one to an O2 bottle as either recommended nor safe - and I sure as shit wouldn't be spruiking them on here.
Mark


----------



## Crusty

MHB said:


> We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
> If it was a regulator designed for O2 you could safely use it for welding as that is I would guess what 90+% of the O2 in bottles is used for.
> I did spend some time today tracking down the manufacturer and as above it is NOT described as O2 compatible... draw your own conclusions.
> Personally without documented evidence I wouldn't regard fitting one to an O2 bottle as either recommended nor safe - and I sure as shit wouldn't be spruiking them on here.
> Mark


I just spoke to Bob the welder where I purchased mine from & guess what, surprise surprise, it's perfectly fine.
The regulators are fine to use with O2, no problems whatsoever.
I ran mine 4 times throughout the afternoon & guess what, I'm still here. They will not rupture, explode or cause any such dramas being on the oxygen cylinder.
Three suppliers of these regulators all said the same thing. If you can show me one that's exploded or ruptured, I'd like to see it. Contact them yourself if you have any doubts & explain to them what your using it for & if the regulator is safe to use on O2.
I'm not going to keep feeding into the debate as I really don't care either what people buy but to state that their not safe because it's not described on the manufactures website means jack shit. Show me some documentation that states their not safe & I'll eat some humble pie. I'll cut an extra 3 pieces for the retailers selling them too if that's the case.


----------



## mstrelan

I'm still tossing up which way to go. I value safety and quality but also don't like wasting money if it can be avoided.

Can anyone point out evidence that the Brewman regulator is in fact designed for O2? The website doesn't mention a particular model, so as far as we know it's no better than the Bossweld regulators, other than that one retailer and one (highly respected) forum member says it is.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Does it have "USE NO OIL" on the gauge? If so, it was designed for O2 use.


----------



## SBOB

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Does it have "USE NO OIL" on the gauge? If so, it was designed for O2 use.


do any portable regulators designed for o2 have this though?

e.g. this one is popular in the states, its 02 compatible.. but in no way does it have any additional info associated with it or 'use no oil' compared the one being 'debated' here

https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Brewing-FE378-Regulator-Disposable/dp/B00OC8DFJ4


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

All regulators for O2 use must, by law, have "USE NO OIL" _on the gauge_ if they are sold in the USA. I think this applies to Australia as well but I haven't been able to find a copy of AS 4267 to confirm this.

The reg you linked has no gauge, so the law wouldn't apply. The reg we are discussing does have a gauge, so the law should apply.


----------



## Crusty

SBOB said:


> do any portable regulators designed for o2 have this though?
> 
> e.g. this one is popular in the states, its 02 compatible.. but in no way does it have any additional info associated with it or 'use no oil' compared the one being 'debated' here
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Brewing-FE378-Regulator-Disposable/dp/B00OC8DFJ4


The sponsors above sell them as well & their designed to use on the Bernzomatic cylinders from Bunnings.
No gauge either, they must be dangerous right?
Their perfectly safe to use & agree fully with this.
Can someone post a photo of the Brewman regulator.
Does it have use no oil on the gauge or not? I don't think it means jack to be honest.


----------



## GABBA110360

one of the no no's to my old knowledge is that you don't use ANY petroleum based lubricants anywhere near the threads or fitting of a oxygen bottle full bloody stop .
i have not bothered researching the fittings that you are all bitching about but for my 2 cents worth if i go down this track i'll walk into a recognised gas outlet provider and go from there and buy whatever is the recommended for the given application
my 2 cents


----------



## SBOB

You don't use oil or any lubricants on portable gas bottles or their associated regulators...

But this is getting a bit nuts now and if people think they can get safer/better regulators of oxygen bottles then they should.... 

And when they do, please post the detailed specs sheet or written confirmation from the supplier so we can all know which regulator ticks all those boxes...


----------



## Crusty

This one looks identical to the Brewman one & no gauge that says use no oil.
I wonder if it's safe to use with the oxygen bottle it's screwed onto.???
This thread has really gone off the rails with some really over reacting.
Of course safety is paramount & I for one don't like to take chances but when I get confirmation from three suppliers of the Bossgas regulator, one of which is the Aussie distributor, I'm happy to stand by my choice. It works, it's designed for O2 & it's perfectly safe.
Their only a phone call away if you need to confirm it for yourself if you are looking at going this way so the choice is yours.
I wanted a L/min gauge which is why I went with the Bossgas regulator. It's pretty handy knowing how much your injecting into the fermenter.


----------



## Zorco

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> All regulators for O2 use must, by law, have "USE NO OIL" _on the gauge_ if they are sold in the USA. I think this applies to Australia as well but I haven't been able to find a copy of AS 4267 to confirm this.
> 
> The reg you linked has no gauge, so the law wouldn't apply. The reg we are discussing does have a gauge, so the law should apply.


5.2 Oxygen regulators Oxygen regulators shall be designed with proper consideration of oxygen ignitions. Oxygen regulators shall comply with the shock test requirements of Appendix B at their rated maximum working pressure (see Table 1) without ignition of their pressure regulating parts or any other material used in their construction. NOTE: A fail-safe oxygen ignition demonstration should be performed. Appendix A describes a suitable test used in the industrial gas industry. The oxygen shock test of Appendix B and the fail-safe oxygen ignition demonstration of Appendix A are type tests only.

6.2 Materials for oxygen regulators The regulator body and bonnet shall not be manufactured from aluminium or ferrous alloys.


----------



## MHB

GABBA110360 said:


> one of the no no's to my old knowledge is that you don't use ANY petroleum based lubricants anywhere near the threads or fitting of a oxygen bottle full bloody stop .
> i have not bothered researching the fittings that you are all bitching about but for my 2 cents worth if i go down this track i'll walk into a recognised gas outlet provider and go from there and buy whatever is the recommended for the given application
> my 2 cents


Not just petroleum for instance a drop or two of glycerine into the well before you screw the reg in is technically called suicide. It has near the same explosive potential as nitroglycerine, the explosion generates enough heat to get the brass burning and after that it starts to get really entertaining - Ah the shit they teach Assault Pioneers, when we are young full of cum and in love with C4, well any form of applied pyromania really.
M


----------



## SBOB

Crusty said:


> This one looks identical to the Brewman one & no gauge that says use no oil.
> I wonder if it's safe to use with the oxygen bottle it's screwed onto.???


or for a better pic


----------



## Zorco

APPENDIX B OXYGEN SHOCK-TYPE TEST
(Normative)
B1 TEST APPARATUS Figures B1 and B2 show a schematic of a suitable test apparatus together with details of the connecting tube. The oxygen supply shall be industrial oxygen (99.5% purity without hydrogen). The test apparatus shall have equipment capable of preheating the oxygen to 60°C ±3°C and subjecting the regulator to its maximum working pressure (see Table 1) using the pre-heated oxygen. The oxygen supply to the regulator shall terminate with a quick-opening valve having a bore of not less than 3 mm. This valve shall be capable of subjecting the regulator to the test pressure within a time of 20 ms.
B2 PRIOR TO TESTING Prior to testing, the regulator shall have its pressure- adjusting screw unscrewed so that the regulator valve is completely closed.
B3 TEST PROCEDURE Proceed as follows:
(a) Connect the regulator to the test apparatus as shown in Figure B1.
(b) Subject the regulator to a shock test by opening the quick-acting valve and holding the pressure for 10 s.
(c) After each shock test, reduce the pressure down to atmospheric pressure using an upstream valve or tapping. Do not reduce the shock test pressure through the regulator.
(d) Repeat Steps (b) and (c) 20 times with intervals of 30 s between the start of each shock test. The procedure is to be recognised as one test series.
B4 TEST OBSERVATIONS The regulator shall have failed the oxygen shock test if any of the following is observed:
(a) The regulator ignites during the oxygen shock test.
(b) There is internal damage, such as scorching to the regulator body or valve parts.
During this test procedure, the regulator filter shall be in place except that, if it can be removed without dismantling the regulator, the test procedure shall be completed both with and without the filter. Also during one test series, the inlet pressure shall not decrease more than 3%.
WARNING: THIS TEST PROCEDURE MUST BE CARRIED OUT WITH THE MAXIMUM SAFETY PRECAUTIONS AND WITH SUITABLE EQUIPMENT AS LARGE AMOUNTS OF ENERGY MAY BE RELEASED. A SAFETY ENCLOSURE FOR THE REGULATOR UNDER TEST MUST BE USED AND PERSONNEL CONDUCTING THE TEST SHALL BE FULLY CONVERSANT WITH THE USE OF OXYGEN AT HIGH PRESSURE.
B5 TEST REPORT The test report shall include the following information:
(a) Whether ignition occurred during the oxygen shock test.
(b) Whether any internal damage occurred, such as scorching, to the regulator body or valve parts.


----------



## SBOB

those point b's look awfully smug


----------



## Zorco

Makes basic sense.

Oil is a hydrocarbon. She need oxygen. Your regulator needs to say, USE NO OIL.

Harris,

They know regulators
http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Expert-Advice/tech-tips/oxy-fuel-equipment-safety-guidelines.aspx

Don't **** with oxygen. MHB is nearly always wrong.......except when he has an opinion.


----------



## Zorco

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> All regulators for O2 use must, by law, have "USE NO OIL" _on the gauge_ if they are sold in the USA. I think this applies to Australia as well but I haven't been able to find a copy of AS 4267 to confirm this.
> 
> The reg you linked has no gauge, so the law wouldn't apply. The reg we are discussing does have a gauge, so the law should apply.


Doesn't have this written mate, been over it a couple of times now. Could be elsewhere though.


----------



## Zorco

AS 4706

5.1.2 Oxygen pressure gauges Bourdon tubes and other parts in contact with the gas shall be resistant to the chemical action of the oxygen and shall not be flammable under operating conditions. Thread sealants or sealing rings shall also be resistant to the chemical action of the oxygen and shall not be flammable under operating conditions. Components in contact with oxygen gas shall conform to ISO 9539. Only lubricants suitable for use in oxygen at the service pressure and temperature shall be used.

Found it mate

6 SAFETY All pressure gauges shall be degreased. Substances that can react violently with oxygen, e.g. hydrocarbon-based solvents and oils, shall not be used for pressure testing of gauges irrespective of gas service.


7 MARKING The dial shall be marked with the following: (a) The symbol for the unit of pressure. (b) The name or trademark of the manufacturer and, or, suppliers of either the pressure gauge or the pressure regulator for which it is intended. (c) For an acetylene pressure gauge, the word acetylene in red letters. (d) For an oxygen pressure gauge, the word oxygen in black letters and the words Use No Oil in red letters. The symbol as shown in Figure 5 is optional. (e) For an oxidant gas pressure gauge (e.g. nitrous oxide), the name of the gas in black letters and the words *Use No Oil* in red letters. The symbol as shown in Figure 5 below is optional. Pressure gauges with taper threads shall be marked with the thread designation (e.g. R …or … NPT) as appropriate either on the dial or shank to indicate the type of thread.


----------



## Zorco

.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

OK thanks, it looks like it's a US only thing.

The reg in #194 is evidently Euro spec, conforming to ISO 5171.


----------



## Zorco

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> OK thanks, it looks like it's a US only thing.
> 
> The reg in #194 is evidently Euro spec, conforming to ISO 5171.


Nope,

Aussie. Keep reading. I have other posts.


----------



## SBOB

so have we determined that all the regulators for portable oxygen tanks are now therefore not compliant with the apparent 'standard'?

I think everyone needs to throw out their portable oxygen setups now


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

OK, very interesting, we cross posted. I should, as you said, have kept reading.


----------



## mstrelan

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Doesn't have this written mate, been over it a couple of times now. Could be elsewhere though.


So we've come to the conclusion that the Brewman regulator is not suitable for oxygen?

EDIT: Duh, cross-posted with SBOB.


----------



## Zorco

SBOB said:


> so have we determined that all the regulators for portable oxygen tanks are now therefore not compliant with the apparent 'standard'?
> 
> I think everyone needs to throw out their portable oxygen setups now


Apparent 'Standard'.... Cough....*

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjS_pnE7dTOAhWLF5QKHXumBvMQFggiMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Finfostore.saiglobal.com%2Fstore%2FPreviewDoc.aspx%3FsaleItemID%3D387053&usg=AFQjCNG-03fgMbr_fhPluT7-VSyCJ1-hvw&sig2=J7XfylJaIV0eBzieiM7uQw


----------



## Crusty

They're fine mate as is the Bossgas one & the little one that uses the Bernzomatic cylinders.
You won't blow yourself up using any of these. Just don't light a ciggy whilst waiving the magic wand around.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

I don't know about throwing them out, but I think the vendor(s) would have a hard time refusing a refund.

Under the Trade Practices Act a refund is available if the product is not fit for purpose, I think you could make a strong argument that non compliance with the relevant AS renders it automatically not fit for purpose.


----------



## Zorco

And then there is the house insurance thing.


----------



## TSMill

Pretty sure 4267 does not cover disposable gas bottles or their regulators. That said, oxygen is not something you **** with and anyone who thinks it needs an ignition source should probably not be playing with it. Oxygen really should have a dedicated reg, and any supplier of generic multi-gas regulators is in my opinion cutting corners. The brewman reg is the same as sold at reece as part of an oxy acetylene kit, and is a specific oxygen only reg.


----------



## MHB

That is correct.
The regulator in the Brewman kit is specifically an Oxygen Regulator, even has an over pressure/flash over relief valve
The one sold at Bunnings et all is listed as a CO2/Argon/inert gas regulator by its manufacturer

Tradeflame is owned by Primus, tomorrow I will do a bit more investigation, I will want to see compliance to AS and strongly suspect that I will end up talking to Work Safe, as what I have found over the last couple of hours indicates a pretty serious breach. That adaptor is very concerning as it allows connection between not designed for purpose regulators and oxygen bottles.
Mark


----------



## Zorco

TSMill said:


> Pretty sure 4267 does not cover disposable gas bottles or their regulators. That said, oxygen is not something you **** with and anyone who thinks it needs an ignition source should probably not be playing with it. Oxygen really should have a dedicated reg, and any supplier of generic multi-gas regulators is in my opinion cutting corners. The brewman reg is the same as sold at reece as part of an oxy acetylene kit, and is a specific oxygen only reg.


AS 2030 Gas Cylinders
AS 4267 Pressure regulators for use with industrial compressed gas cylinders 
AS 4706 Pressure gauges for regulators used with compressed gas cylinders


----------



## manticle

Once you guys have sorted all this out, I'll select my setup.
Just finished a basic tafe welding course (well the prac bit but theory at this level of tafe is about as hard as changing a toilet roll) and was introduced to the picture of an apprentice's fingers following manipulating the o2 bottle valve with hands contaminated with hydrocarbons.

Certainly don't want it happening in my oxy setup at work, nor my brewing area at home.

I'll keep reading before buying.


----------



## TSMill

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> AS 2030 Gas Cylinders
> AS 4267 Pressure regulators for use with industrial compressed gas cylinders
> AS 4706 Pressure gauges for regulators used with compressed gas cylinders


Disposable bottles are not classified as cylinders.


----------



## mstrelan

A summary of where we're at:

* "Use no oil" is not applicable to disposable gas bottle regulators.

* Multi-gas regulators are not suitable for oxygen.

* Some retailers suggest it's ok to use the multi-gas regulators for O2.

A new question... How is it that Keg King can sell a multi-gas regulator that is suitable for O2? See http://kegking.com.au/mkiii-multi-gas-regulator-co2-o2-ar2-n2-0-50psi.html


----------



## Zorco

TSMill said:


> Disposable bottles are not classified as cylinders.


Yep, wasn't correcting or directing..... just info.

I haven't found that distinction in the standards though...looking.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

mstrelan said:


> How is it that Keg King can sell a multi-gas regulator that is suitable for O2? See http://kegking.com.au/mkiii-multi-gas-regulator-co2-o2-ar2-n2-0-50psi.html


Because they used materials in construction that are stable in oxygen. Apart from some solubility effects of high pressure CO2, if something will survive exposure to high pressure oxygen it's usually OK in other the other gasses mentioned, they're all fairly to very inert.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Because they used materials in construction that are stable in oxygen. Apart from some solubility effects of high pressure CO2, if something will survive exposure to high pressure oxygen it's usually OK in other the other gasses mentioned, they're all fairly to very inert.


I pulled mine apart and there was a white grease, highly unlikely to be an oxygen compatible one. Also a plastic seal, maybe Teflon which is ok as long as it's not reinforced as some of the reinforcement material if ignited can create toxic fumes (medical stds now ban those). From what I can gather most retailers simply don't state oxygen compatibility rather 'multi gas' and use the omission of clear specs as a guise to protect themselves.

While the risks are not critical in the homebrew application and oxygen, they are still real and increase proportionally with the amount of ignorance of the operator.


----------



## Benn

Tribolube ( http://www.aerospacelubricants.com/tribolube/scuba/default.html ) is white in colour as are Polyurethane O rings, both suitable for Oxygen Service. Wouldn't have a clue what's used in a KK reg though.


----------



## Glomp

I just received the kegking mk3 premium multigas regulator as part of my new kegerator.

It is a type30 which is for co2 and co2/nitrogen mix.

It then states for type10 (argon/oxygen/helium) that fittings are sold separately


----------



## sp0rk

Crusty said:


> Tradeflame oxygen cylinder from Bunnings....Here
> Craftbrewer 0.5 micron stone oxy wand...Here
> Regulator from Bob the Welder on ebay....Here
> I'm very happy with this setup.


Dangit, I've been in Ballina for the last 4 days, I should have hit up old mate Bob the welder to see if I could have picked up


----------



## technobabble66

manticle said:


> Once you guys have sorted all this out, I'll select my setup.
> ... Certainly don't want it happening in my oxy setup at work, nor my brewing area at home.
> 
> I'll keep reading before buying.


Same. 
I'm definitely all for saving pennies and doing ghetto options, but the statement "the man's severed arm was found over here" kinda freaked the shit out of me. 
There's clearly a few very "wrong" things you can do with O2! I'm familiar with how careful you need to be with O2 generally (ie: outside the reg) but was not aware how dangerous it was within the reg (ie: that guy who lost his arm seems to have triggered an explosion simply by using a wrench to twist the outlet of the cylinder - scary stuff!!). 

It looks like crusty's done a reasonable amount of due diligence on that Bossgas reg. 
And I'm now wondering how many of the O2 regs on the market comply with the Australian Standards, including the expensive "reputable" ones. 

So I'll keep reading and hope to see a conclusion soon [emoji6]


----------



## Zorco

TSMill said:


> Disposable bottles are not classified as cylinders.


I still cannot find out why your statement is correct. What are they classified as?


----------



## Crusty

If anyone wants to ring Dynaweld for their own piece of mind, talk to Pete in the workshop. I just spoke to him on the phone & he consulted with their gas guru whose name is also Pete. The Bossgas disposable regulator that I have is absolutely 100% safe to use on the disposable oxygen cylinders. Those pictures put doubt in my mind also but thats now 4 suppliers of these regulators confirming their safe to use. Im not ringing anyone else, Im more than comfortable using my setup.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> I still cannot find out why your statement is correct. What are they classified as?


I think he's right, the relevant standards refer to "refillable cylinders", so presumably disposable ones don't count.


----------



## Zorco

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I think he's right, the relevant standards refer to "refillable cylinders", so presumably disposable ones don't count.


I'm inclined to follow this as well. 

But just waiting for the evidence. If anyone has a disposable cylinder, is there an Australian or International standard it states compliance to?


----------



## drsmurto

This is the gear i own, supplied by MHB/Brewman - Link 

From my reading the gear is designed for use with oxygen and meets all the relevant standards.

I've been using the setup since MHB first stocked them. On my 3rd bottle now and love the ease of use. Plug and play.

EDIT - the link is to the oxyturbo website which shows the relevant standards/regulations.


----------



## wildburkey

Take this mater seriously fellas, my old man's a paramedic and has always stressed the importance of using correct regulators and avoiding contact with grease, oils and ignition sources. He has told me about a safety demonstration (similar to the link I'm posting here I'd presume), where a small amount of petroleum jelly and O2 were mixed in a controlled manner to create a large explosion.


----------



## Crusty

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> I'm inclined to follow this as well.
> 
> But just waiting for the evidence. If anyone has a disposable cylinder, is there an Australian or International standard it states compliance to?


Mine just says valve conforms to EN ISO 13340

I just screwed my regulator off & screwed it back on & apart from a little hiss, which is quite normal, I'm still here in one piece.


----------



## technobabble66

[emoji1][emoji106]. Thanks for your truckload of input in this, crusty! Def most appreciated.


----------



## Brewman_

There is currently no Australian standard for regulators for disposable Oxygen Cylinders.

The one I sell is made in Italy to EN ISO standards. EN 2503.

It has an in built flashback arrestor for safety. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashback_arrestor

Hope that helps clear up any confusion


----------



## Crusty

Brewman_ said:


> There is currently no Australian standard for regulators for disposable Oxygen Cylinders.
> 
> The one I sell is made in Italy to EN ISO standards. EN 2503.
> 
> It has an in built flashback arrestor for safety. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashback_arrestor
> 
> Hope that helps clear up any confusion


Your correct, there is no Australian standard for disposables.
I think this information that you listed here would help if you added it to your description of the wort oxygenation kit that you sell.
I was going to purchase one from you but at the last minute, decided that I'd prefer to have a L/min gauge rather than a bottle capacity indicator.
I have no doubt that the regulator you sell is more of a quality unit than mine, especially with the flashback arrestor which I assume is triggered by temperature. It's good to know that people like yourself & MHB have done your homework & at the end of the day, it's personal safety that's important & I know that Mark is pretty passionate on that subject. I just wanted to let people know that the regulator I have will not explode & is in fact, safe to use with oxygen disposable cylinders.


----------



## MHB

I got killed once - seriously 240V dead short through me - needed kick starting.
Once was enough, you cant always be sure someone nearby knows CPR, lesson learned not planning on doing it again -ever!
Mark


----------



## mstrelan

Think I'll go down the Brewman route when I eventually pull the trigger. Can we safely use the flow meter linked in #28 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/252193950453) with the Brewman kit? Is there any advantage of using the flow meter? It doesn't look like the highest quality.


----------



## Exile

mstrelan said:


> Think I'll go down the Brewman route when I eventually pull the trigger. Can we safely use the flow meter linked in #28 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/252193950453) with the Brewman kit? Is there any advantage of using the flow meter? It doesn't look like the highest quality.


Hope so as I purchased this last week


----------



## Brewman_

mstrelan said:


> Think I'll go down the Brewman route when I eventually pull the trigger. Can we safely use the flow meter linked in #28 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/252193950453) with the Brewman kit? Is there any advantage of using the flow meter? It doesn't look like the highest quality.


I've been using the kit for quite a while. The use of a flow meter sounds like a good idea, agree, but I just don't think you need it. In an industrial /brewery situation then yes.

Try it and see.


----------



## fishingbrad

Exile said:


> Hope so as I purchased this last week


I've had this on my set up for the last 18mths +. Haven't had an issue. however as I've said previously, I disconnect the bottle after every use.


----------



## gezzanet

mstrelan said:


> Think I'll go down the Brewman route when I eventually pull the trigger. Can we safely use the flow meter linked in #28 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/252193950453) with the Brewman kit? Is there any advantage of using the flow meter? It doesn't look like the highest quality.


Bought the brewman kit and later a flow meter. I still have the flow meter in line but a waste imo. Just crank the valve till the bubbles break the surface and it will be close the reqd rate.


----------



## technobabble66

[emoji1][emoji106]. Thanks for your truckload of input in this, crusty! Def most appreciated.


----------



## bradsbrew

Well, how i store and maintain my air reg and bottle just got a little more care and attention added.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

If it's an air bottle and reg that can't happen. We're talking oxygen.

Also please Crusty et al, just because nothing has happened yet does not mean it won't. You would not sign off advice that it 'will not explode' if you were truly under the obligation of the OH&S Act. So please don't do it from behind your keyboard.

Arm yourself with the knowledge and understanding of the risks and limitations of oxygen use and equipment in oxygen use and make an informed decision. It's sadly not one of those things you can just rest assure everything will be OK.

In reality there are MAJOR industrial installations which have oxygen processing equipment, designed and certified for oxygen use that employ explosion proof barriers around it, because NOONE can guarantee there won't be an explosion due to Oxygen. I work with this stuff first hand, everyday. 

Flashback arrestors typically work by 'cooling' an ignition inside the regulator or pipeline as a heat sink. They don't guarantee there won't be an ignition but are a decent last line of defence and they don't stop the flow of oxygen. Kind of like PPE.

Hope this helps open people's eyes and prevent any injuries or losses.


----------



## Zorco

I'm puzzled that something with as much risk as compressed O2 (disposable) isn't covered by an Australian Standard. There should be a link to an Aussie authority. We just need to find it.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

There aren't? Odd, because my understanding is:

AS 4267—1995 Pressure regulators for use with industrial compressed gas cylinders

Definitions tell me 3.1 Compressed gas regulator—a regulator fitted with inlet fittings complying with AS 2473 and used for reducing a generally variable inlet pressure to an outlet pressure (to be constant as possible) in connection with the flow rate which may be changed.

Not sure why the above definition wouldn't apply to a disposable bottle, it's still regulating a compressed gas.

The contents are (App A & B of relevance to this thread too!):

1 SCOPE .................................................... 4
2 REFERENCED DOCUMENTS ................................... 4
3 DEFINITIONS ............................................... 4
4 GENERAL DESIGN REQUIREMENTS ............................. 5
5 SPECIFIC DESIGN REQUIREMENTS ............................. 6
6 CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS .............................. 6
7 PERFORMANCE ............................................. 7
8 MARKING ................................................. 9
APPENDICES
A PROMOTED IGNITION TEST . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
B OXYGEN SHOCK-TYPE TEST . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
C HYDROSTATIC-TYPE TEST ON HIGH-PRESSURE SIDE OF REGULATOR 13
D GAS PRESSURE RETENTION-TYPE TEST ON LOW-PRESSURE SIDE
OF REGULATOR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
E GAS TIGHTNESS TEST . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
F PERFORMANCE TESTS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16

Also other relevant standards:
AS 4289-1995 Oxygen and acetylene gas reticulation systems
AS 2896-2011 Medical gas systems
AS 3840.1—1998 Pressure regulators for use with medical gases


Also this is covered as a Dangerous Good under the NOHSC Storage and Handling of Workplace Dangerous Goods NATIONAL CODE OF PRACTICE [NOHSC:2017(2001)]

Happy researching


----------



## Zorco

Ohh, yep, I ran this line. Go back a few pages and I've posted from that standard.


----------



## Zorco

So at Bunnings to figure this out. Cylinder to EN 12205

Valve to EN ISO 13340

Welding gear to EN1326



Can't read gauge re oil.


----------



## TSMill

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> There aren't? Odd, because my understanding is:
> 
> AS 4267—1995 Pressure regulators for use with industrial compressed gas cylinders
> 
> Definitions tell me 3.1 Compressed gas regulator—a regulator fitted with inlet fittings complying with AS 2473 and used for reducing a generally variable inlet pressure to an outlet pressure (to be constant as possible) in connection with the flow rate which may be changed.
> 
> Not sure why the above definition wouldn't apply to a disposable bottle, it's still regulating a compressed gas.


Definitions tend to be broader than the scope of the standards they are contained witihin. This is specifically for regulators on gas cylinders as defined in AS 2030, which does not include disposables. 

Whatever you do, just make sure your oxygen regulator is magnesium free, otherwise........OMg!


----------



## Zorco

BS 
BS EN

That's good stuff


----------



## Crusty

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Also please Crusty et al, just because nothing has happened yet does not mean it won't. You would not sign off advice that it 'will not explode' if you were truly under the obligation of the OH&S Act. So please don't do it from behind your keyboard.


That's right, I'm under no obligation whatsoever. Do you spend all your life worrying about the possibility that something bad may happen?
Do you walk across the road & worry you may get run over? It hasn't happened yet but it might happen.
Of course things can go wrong & accidents can happen. The Bossgas regulator is perfectly fine to use. I can give you the 4 contacts I spoke to regarding it's use for oxygen. If it was risky to use it, I'd throw the thing in the bin as the potential of harming myself or someone else is too important. These regulators have been used for years & with oxygen & not one of the 4 retailers I spoke to have heard of any such explosions or anyone being harmed by using them. I spoke to a gas fitter at work this afternoon & showed him my setup & there's another one that says there should be no issues using it with oxygen. Maybe one day it might blow up, but I doubt it.
Has anyone considered or even bat an eyelid that the disposable oxygen cylinders & the regulators are not food grade?
Is there actually a difference? The only true way to supply your wort with food grade oxygen if there is a difference, is to get the proper equipment which is a bit more expensive.
A D-size food grade oxygen cylinder & a Cigweld Cutskill Oxygen regulator would do the trick if they are in fact food grade.
Dan's got the best setup I've seen on here #29. A lot more expensive than the disposable route but the right way to go about it.


----------



## mstrelan

Out of interest I emailed Companion Brands (Tradeflame) asking if they sell a regulator for use with the disposal O2 cylinders. They responded:

"We do have a regulator that fits our oxygen bottles, however our oxygen is for industrial use only. NOT intended for brewing."

Personally I don't care what it was "intended" to be used for, but I assume they are not interested in being responsible if there was some issue with non-food grade O2 being used in beer.


----------



## Batz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slOY4cSVfy8


----------



## Crusty

Absolute gold Batz.


----------



## eldertaco

Sounds like they're sick of fielding brewers enquiries? Fwiw I notice that the tradeflame welding kit which the bottle is intended to be used with does come with spark/flame arrestors.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Crusty said:


> That's right, I'm under no obligation whatsoever. Do you spend all your life worrying about the possibility that something bad may happen?
> Do you walk across the road & worry you may get run over? It hasn't happened yet but it might happen.


Yes I do! I don't go outside and I just play Limp Bizkit on the CD player 24/7. The odd occasion I do need to go outside or travel anywhere, I get into my Spruce Goose and off I go.

In all srsness, risk acceptance is something we confront every second of our lives in someway. You may be comfortable with the decisions you made, others may not be, we won't get away from that.

I agree, your boss gas regulator probably won't fail. But probability x consequence, where consequence is that I could start a fire, get seriously injured or lose my eye sight, is not acceptable for me with 'probably not'. I'd prefer to be more in the category of 'most definitely not', which I'd put actual stated 'oxygen' regulators and equipment in.

An important thing for people to consider when deciding on which way to go an then how to use their setup, would be the modes of ignition with Oxygen:

Most common being adiabatic compression (ie. opening a valve quickly into a system with consderable back pressure or a closed valve)
Open valves slowly, preferably with the downstream system 'open', so into an airstone with your flowmeter at normal set pressure should be OK to avoid heat generation from adiabatic compression.
Incompatible materials - brass is quite oxygen compatible, teflon is good, polymers are NOT, granted the aforementioned are not likely to be used on our setups, likely Nylon or HDPE are. I'd probably go for Nylon, HDPE would be best to be cleaned with an oxygen degreaser. There is a good detergent I forget the name of but something 'green apple' rings a bell - anyone know what I am thinking of?
Particle impingement - anything entrained in the gas flow impacting a hardnened surface inside could cause ignition, so cleanliness is as important as sanitation is for the rest of our brewing process to ensure no foregin particles enter.


----------



## Danscraftbeer

Don't rattle the cages brewers!
[edit] on busting the balls of bottled gas suppliers.

I was going to post how home brewers might raise the bar on bottled O2 regulations. ...........oh.
Then back to earth you have.


----------



## MHB

> Has anyone considered or even bat an eyelid that the disposable oxygen cylinders & the regulators are not food grade?
> Is there actually a difference? The only true way to supply your wort with food grade oxygen if there is a difference, is to get the proper equipment which is a bit more expensive.


Crusty - Me, yes I got a certification that the regulator, the cylinders and the oxygen in them were all food grade/safe even the line was food grade beer line, and all the parts complied with an AU or EU standard... Call it Duty of Care!

I want manufactures certifications that the product I choose are safe


Mark


----------



## Zorco

So, the picture I'm starting to get with the disposable gear, if there is no Australian Standard, is that European normalised standards are the level adopted. And widely accepted in my industry so seemingly gas too.

Crusty, maybe your little reg and gauge is BS, or BS EN compliant. If you posted that already, soz, I'll look again in the morning.


----------



## Crusty

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> So, the picture I'm starting to get with the disposable gear, if there is no Australian Standard, is that European normalised standards are the level adopted. And widely accepted in my industry so seemingly gas too.
> 
> Crusty, maybe your little reg and gauge is BS, or BS EN compliant. If you posted that already, soz, I'll look again in the morning.


I'll have to have a look.


----------



## Benn

From the Dynaweld website http://www.dynaweld.com.au/
MSDS for the 'BossGas 1 litre oxygen disposable gas bottle'
http://www.dynaweld.com.au//img/cms/MSDS/600037.pdf
Good basic information for those who wish to learn more about safe storage/handling etc. of O2
Interesting that it lists Medical Applications as one of several uses.


----------



## MHB

The 600044 regulator is listed by its manufacturer as a CO2, Argon Inert gas regulator. As posted previously see Post # 179...
The supplier of the regulator doesn't even stock O2. That the Regulator can be fitted to another manufacturers product doesn't mean it should be.
In the eBay link Crusty posted # 131 "Bob the Welder" as the supplier the regulator is listed as suitable for MIG TIG - 


That the regulator isn't safe nor suitable for use with Oxygen has been repeated and demonstrated 
I and others have spent a fair amount of time actually researching, looking for relevant standards and safety advisories. 

Mark


----------



## SBOB

MHB said:


> The supplier of the regulator doesn't even stock O2. That the Regulator can be fitted to another manufacturers product doesn't mean it should be.


sorry, but you're flat our wrong here..
If you took 1 minute to browse their rather massive catalogue on dynaweld.com.au you would see the page below

Disposable Gas Bottle Regulators
600044 - Bossweld Regulator with Gauge 

1L Disposable Gas Bottles
600037 - 100% Oxygen

2.2L Disposable Gas Bottles
600036 - 100% Oxygen


Want to find ANYWHERE in that listing (or the catalogue itself) which would indicate that the 'disposable gas bottle' regulator they list at the top of the page would not be suitable for ANY of their 'disposable gas bottles' they list below?


----------



## Coldspace

There's a cheap gaugeless 02 setup for $59 on the homebrewerswarehouse.com.au site. Looks like the ones sold in the USA. Brass reg,line and airstone.

Not sure id go that cheap, I like the fact my reg has ltr flow rate. I'm happy with the info Crusty has provided from the suppliers .

I work with oxy welding gear on our job sites all the time. ( frigie/electrician) and the way our gear gets dirty ,nocked around and ****, some guys just throw them in back of utes, damaged gauges lines, look at all the gear in back of some guys utes and vans next time out on the road. I've never seen an instance happen over 25 years in the trade. Touch wood...

I'd be more worried guys about the risk of electrocution from some of the Things people do in this world when it comes to do with electricity and Do it yourself wiring. Something's I've seen on here with electricity has made me cringe a little .especially when water and wort are around, ghetto set ups etc.

I've taken and acknowledged MHB concerns, and have made my own personal informed decision based on info here and my own real world experience with these gases.

Pity about personal attacks, let's keep real discussion going and no gutter talk, positive thoughts and productive research is what we are here for..

I think this setup that crusty and I use will be safe in bubbling some thru wort for 1 min. Disconnect, and keep clean somewhere.

Just use sensible approach with this gear, not like I've seen on the many job sites over the years.


----------



## manticle

You're right on one hand - forum owners and staff need to ensure the advice provided is as safe as possible. The info provided by bossweld/dynaweld is ambiguous - an o2 bottle is pictured among their disposable range (no I wouldn't tig/mig weld with it) so I will do some more checking.

My main point is that if Crusty is wrong, that makes him ill advised. He has attempted to check, several times and the duty of care of the sales rep/supplier is at least as serious as mine. If he is ill advised that's one thing but your post was playing the man rather than the ball.

I admit a lot of sales reps have no real idea about their product so I'll try and find better quality info about this specific part and its implied use with the specific o2 disposable bottle pictured on the site.
If it is unsuitable then the bossweld website needs to be more clear.


----------



## Coldspace

I also think, if it was a Major concern then they would not allow this type of thread to match up the reg thread. Similar to left hand thread with LPG.

Safety standards evolve over time, but this ATM I think is OK, compared to something's I've seen go on in industry.

Just my 2 cents...


----------



## Zorco

*DISPOSABLE:*
BS EN 12205: Transportable gas cylinders. Non-refillable metallic gas cylinders
EN ISO 13340: Transportable gas cylinders -- Cylinders valves for non-refillable cylinders 
BS EN 1326: Gas welding equipment. Small kits for gas brazing and welding

*REFILLABLE:*
AS 2030 Gas Cylinders
AS 4267 Pressure regulators for use with industrial compressed gas cylinders 
AS 4706 Pressure gauges for regulators used with compressed gas cylinders 


So, this is where I'm up to. The top set of standards are the framework for acceptance of disposable O2 gear within Australia. There is probably a better one for gauges and regulators for non-refillable cylinders. Still looking.

What is the Australian Government body who oversees gas safety in Aus?


----------



## Zorco

OK,

back onto the Bossgas solution

MHB indicated that the BossGas regulator was from rockfly. Below is their Alibaba search url. You can see that in nearly all cases the oxygen compatible are specifically mentioned. 
https://rocfly.en.alibaba.com/productgrouplist-219216626-3/Gas_Regulator_and_Flowmeter.html?isGallery=Y


Edit: Upon looking into the details, I've seen that RockFly have even used the model number that BossGas have adopted (unoriginal f&cks)
https://rocfly.en.alibaba.com/product/60459107929-219216626/Disposable_Mini_Gas_Bottle_Regulator_Without_Gauge.html


Part No.: 600043


The ones that appear to be those the BossGas use, image below from BossGas site, seem to match perfectly. There is an inconsistency here. 







Without any direct references to the standards I've listed above (or better) it is right to conclude that the BossGas regulators are not rated of O2 and should be overlooked.

MHB and anyone would be well within their remit to lodge a complaint.

AHB users should avoid this product.


MHB is a here......but as I've said before..... he is rarely wrong and I respect that indeed.

I believe Mark actually gives a damn. The brewing community needs a mate like Mark. Even if he plays the man and not the ball sometimes. (That's what you meant Manticle? )


----------



## sp0rk

MHB said:


> The supplier of the regulator doesn't even stock O2. That the Regulator can be fitted to another manufacturers product doesn't mean it should be.
> In the eBay link Crusty posted # 131 "Bob the Welder" as the supplier the regulator is listed as suitable for MIG TIG - as someone who can weld I'm sure you know you don't use O2 in either.


At times (mostly with stainless) you can use small amounts of O2 in MIG welding to improve arc stability and fluidity...


----------



## mstrelan

Crusty said:


> I might one day upgrade to a more commercial type setup like the Cigweld regulator I linked too several posts back & a full size O2 cylinder ...


Did I hear someone say "bulk buy"?


----------



## technobabble66

If only we knew someone who regularly ran bulk buys in Melbourne...


----------



## SBOB

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> The ones that appear to be those the BossGas use, image below from BossGas site, seem to match perfectly. There is an inconsistency here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Without any direct references to the standards I've listed above (or better) it is right to conclude that the BossGas regulators are not rated of O2 and should be overlooked.


or, if we follow the standard that it does show

EN562 - > "BS EN 562:2003 - Gas welding equipment. Pressure gauges used in welding, cutting and allied processes"
This standard includes oxygen in its details

This standard has been deprecated and replaced by

EN5171 0 - > "BS EN ISO 5171:2010 - Gas welding equipment. Pressure gauges used in welding, cutting and allied processes"
This standard also includes oxygen'

I dont have access to ISO standards, but that regulator would indicate it adheres to 'some' international ISO standard and I can find plenty of oxygen regulators which adhere to the 2003 EN562 standard


----------



## MHB

Just spoke to the guys at Dynaweld - they have discontinued their O2 bottles.
Their range is correct as per the website the catalogue is out of date.

Conclusion
The regulator is specifically listed and described as a CO2, Argon, Inert Gas regulator.
The regulator supplier doesn't have/stock an O2 bottle that fits the Regulator.
Fitting some other manufactures (i.e. Tradeflame) Oxygen bottle to it , is at best problematic. A conversation with Companion products this morning reveals that the only regulator they recommend for their O2 bottle is the one in the Oxypower Blowtorch Kit. That regulator isn't available separately, not even as a spare part.

I believe recommending this product breaches Forum Rule 4

Ok I admit saying Crusty is a tight arse may have been a little impolitic and if he has taken offence I apologise.
Hardly a vitriolic personal attack read posts #225-226
The reply was nice and not even a touch "personal".

You don't know me dickhead! Don't turn this into a personal attack arsehole, you'll lose big time.
I'm far from a tight arse & anyone that knows me will know your way off base.
I own a 50L Braumeister, I own a still that cost over $2,000.00 just for the bubble cap column.
I always buy the best equipment I can so it's not the cheapest that I settle for you idiot.

Moderate to your hearts content, but a hint of impartiality wouldn't go astray.
Mark


----------



## manticle

I'll clean the thread of personal stuff from both sides.

I will also do my best to make sure it is clear these regs are not appropriate for use with o2.

As suggested your research is appreciated by many -looks like crusty has been misled rather than just been tight.

More diplomacy on all fronts would be appreciated.


----------



## SBOB

SBOB said:


> or, if we follow the standard that it does show
> 
> EN562 - > "BS EN 562:2003 - Gas welding equipment. Pressure gauges used in welding, cutting and allied processes"
> This standard includes oxygen in its details
> 
> This standard has been deprecated and replaced by
> 
> EN5171 0 - > "BS EN ISO 5171:2010 - Gas welding equipment. Pressure gauges used in welding, cutting and allied processes"
> This standard also includes oxygen'
> 
> I dont have access to ISO standards, but that regulator would indicate it adheres to 'some' international ISO standard and I can find plenty of oxygen regulators which adhere to the 2003 EN562 standard


following this one step further

The 'regulator' in question (based on its stamp) adheres to
EN562.
This standard is deprecated and directly replaced by EN5171 (which 'should' mean any reg that adheres to EN562 and still sold adheres to EN5171)

EN5171 is a direct corelation to the ISO standard ISO 5171, which also happens to be the standard stamped on the Oxyturbo regulator used in the current setup developed by MHB and sold by Brewman

So to me, it would seem that both the 'ebay' reg and the 'Oxyturbo' reg adhere to essentially the same ISO/international standard number which is

"ISO 5171:2009 - Gas welding equipment -- Pressure gauges used in welding, cutting and allied processes"

Anyone with access to EN562/EN5171 or ISO5171 standards want to pull out the relevant 'oxygen' bits to see if there are caveats that would exclude certain regulators with that standard marking from being applicable to oxygen (as the standard covers "use for dissolved acetylene and for liquefied gases under pressure", which includes oxygen)


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Crusty said:


> I might one day upgrade to a more commercial type setup like the Cigweld regulator I linked too several posts back & a full size O2 cylinder





mstrelan said:


> Did I hear someone say "bulk buy"?





technobabble66 said:


> If only we knew someone who regularly ran bulk buys in Melbourne...


I have a trade account with BOC / Cigweld; it doesn't seem to improve their prices. I believe you have to have an account with them to get a bottle swap, that would seem to limit the applicability of a group buy.

What might be worth doing is seeing if Keg King can source a stem to allow the use of their full scale reg on a mini O2 bottle, since their reg is obviously OK for oxygen.


----------



## Crusty

MHB said:


> Just spoke to the guys at Dynaweld - they have discontinued their O2 bottles.
> Their range is correct as per the website the catalogue is out of date.
> 
> Conclusion
> The regulator is specifically listed and described as a CO2, Argon, Inert Gas regulator.
> The regulator supplier doesn't have/stock an O2 bottle that fits the Regulator.
> Fitting some other manufactures (i.e. Tradeflame) Oxygen bottle to it , is at best problematic. A conversation with Companion products this morning reveals that the only regulator they recommend for their O2 bottle is the one in the Oxypower Blowtorch Kit. That regulator isn't available separately, not even as a spare part.
> 
> I believe recommending this product breaches Forum Rule 4
> 
> Ok I admit saying Crusty is a tight arse may have been a little impolitic and if he has taken offence I apologise.
> Hardly a vitriolic personal attack read posts #225-226
> The reply was nice and not even a touch "personal".
> 
> You don't know me dickhead! Don't turn this into a personal attack arsehole, you'll lose big time.
> I'm far from a tight arse & anyone that knows me will know your way off base.
> I own a 50L Braumeister, I own a still that cost over $2,000.00 just for the bubble cap column.
> I always buy the best equipment I can so it's not the cheapest that I settle for you idiot.
> 
> Moderate to your hearts content, but a hint of impartiality wouldn't go astray.
> Mark


I would also like to apologize for my heated reaction to what I did take as offensive behavior.
No matter how many times you try to give advice nicely, as you put it, there's no need to get personal & it was personal.
What you may or may not be informing Companion is your intentions for the use of the setup.
Did you say that you have no intentions of doing any welding with it & you are simply adding oxygen to your wort?
When people don't have all the required information needed, they tend to make assumptions & this may or may not be the case.
As before, people are well enough informed by now so they can take it or leave it, it's entirely up to them. I'm comfortable that it's a non safety issue as advised by all that I've spoken too & I'm not hesitant about using it. If it does blow up one day & I survive, I'm happy to concede & eat humble pie & will let everyone else know of the outcome. Then I will write a detailed apology together with a thank you card for telling me so.


----------



## sp0rk

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> I have a trade account with BOC / Cigweld if that's any use. Doesn't seem to change their prices FWIW.


I've looked into this too, I work in a large animal hospital and we use a LOT of oxygen
Wouldn't really be any cheaper for me to go through work or start up my own account 

Looks like I might just grab a Brewman kit at some point


----------



## Crusty

sp0rk said:


> I've looked into this too, I work in a large animal hospital and we use a LOT of oxygen
> Wouldn't really be any cheaper for me to go through work or start up my own account


BOC are way too expensive.
Bunnings have a pretty good setup if you want to go that way. I might adopt this approach myself if I have any reservations down the track.

Cigweld cutskill oxygen regulator

$200.00 down payment for the cylinder, refundable when returned & $69.00 for a full D-size cylinder

Coregas trade & go

I'm certain this setup meets all the required standards.


----------



## manticle

I have pruned the thread. Anyone who has had a post hidden that they believe adds value to the thread and avoids insulting other members, please PM me with reasons for reinstating it.
In a couple of instances, I've edited posts to remove personal attacks (can't recover the edited stuff even if I wanted to) but most posts are hidden (not deleted).

I'll continue to check out the for and against arguments for the bossweld regulator but once convinced of the safe and legal way to proceed, I may need to edit anything recommending its use in this regard. In the meantime thanks to zorco, MHB, SBOB and Crusty all for endeavouring to check, even if there's been disagreement on the outcome and please all stay civil and alive while I work through it.


----------



## Crusty

I don't want anyone to get hurt using something that's not suitable & if I was told, from what I believe as reputable & well experienced people, that the setup was dangerous, I'd be the first to let everyone know & I'd have no hesitation in tossing it in the bin. If this gets proven to be the case, then that's where it will go.
The MHB/Brewman regulator does have the added safety features & compliance checks according to Mark & Brewman so by all means, if you feel more comfortable using that setup, go for it. I have no doubt it's a quality unit & as I said before, I was going to purchase one from Brewman but I wanted a L/min gauge which is why I went with the Bossgas reg. I have no reservations using mine at this stage & will continue to do so unless someone can get more detailed info on the advice to not use it with oxygen. All that I've spoken to that sell & use them on a regular basis have had no issues nor do they expect any such dangers to occur. This in itself was conclusive enough for me & I can envision no danger whatsoever running O2 into my wort using this setup from that advice.
If it's deemed & proven to be a high risk setup, I'm getting my squeaky arse off to Bunnings. ( comedy Mark right there )


----------



## droid

things have worked out ok, good stuff, could have been worse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgSpslkKlgM


----------



## sp0rk

Crusty said:


> BOC are way too expensive.
> Bunnings have a pretty good setup if you want to go that way. I might adopt this approach myself if I have any reservations down the track.
> 
> Cigweld cutskill oxygen regulator
> 
> $200.00 down payment for the cylinder, refundable when returned & $69.00 for a full D-size cylinder
> 
> Coregas trade & go
> 
> I'm certain this setup meets all the required standards.


I think this is how I'll go, just need to convince Mrs sp0rk it's "needed"
Also wanting an argon cylinder for the TIG welder I'm about to buy, with how little I'll be using it, renting will be a waste of money
Here's hoping Singleton Bunnings does both cylinders


----------



## peteru

Right, now that the regulator battles seem to be in ceasefire...

Taking a different approach to the problem of introducing the appropriate amount of oxygen into wort. An approach that does not involve oxygen under high pressure. Would it be practical to use a simple chemical process to generate enough oxygen at low pressure to oxygenate wort? For example, place some sodium percarbonate into a flask, add hot water and plug the flask with a hose that is connected to a diffuser submerged in wort? It should be possible to predict the amount of oxygen generated based on the amount of chemicals used. Are there other cheap and readily available chemicals that would provide a clean and safe oxygen source for a method like this?


----------



## MHB

Lots of reaction pathways to make free (as in the gas not $'s) Oxygen.
Apart from the initial cost of an O2 system, the ongoing cost per brew is so low I doubt that a chemical alternative would be cost effective, even something like perk would be a lot more expensive.
Mark


----------



## eldertaco

Ok, I found a copy of ISO 5171:2010. Not too much in it about oxygen but it does say that for an oxygen gauge the dial must be marked with OXYGEN or O and the crossed out oil symbol.

I'll post some bits copy pasted, and a pic or two, hopefully not against the rules.

1 Scope
This International Standard specifies requirements for Bourdon-tube pressure gauges normally used with
compressed gas systems at pressures up to 30 MPa (300 bar) in welding, cutting and allied processes. It also
covers use for dissolved acetylene and for liquefied gases under pressure.
It does not cover gauges for acetylene in acetylene-manufacturing plants.
2 Normative references
The following referenced documents are indispensable for the application of this document. For dated
references, only the edition cited applies. For undated references, the latest edition of the referenced
document (including any amendments) applies.
ISO 7-1, Pipe threads where pressure-tight joints are made on the threads — Part 1: Dimensions, tolerances
and designation
ISO 228-1, Pipe threads where pressure-tight joints are not made on the threads — Part 1: Dimensions,
tolerances and designation
ISO 497, Guide to the choice of series of preferred numbers and of series containing more rounded values of
preferred numbers
ISO 4589-2:1996, Plastics — Determination of burning behaviour by oxygen index — Part 2: Ambienttemperature
test
ISO 9539, Materials for equipment used in gas welding, cutting and allied processes
ISO 10102, Assembly tools for screws and nuts — Double-headed open-ended engineers' wrenches —
Length of wrenches and thickness of the heads
ANSI/ASME B1.20.1, Pipe threads, general purpose (inch) 1)

<snip>


4.3 Maximum pressure mark
The maximum operating pressure shall be indicated on the dial by a symbol or coloured mark and shall not
exceed 3/4 of the maximum scale reading.
NOTE For pressure gauges used with regulators conforming to ISO 2503, the maximum pressure mark is normally p2
for low-pressure gauges and p1 for high-pressure gauges, as defined in ISO 2503:1998, Table 4.

https://i.imgur.com/C3Fn6YU.png


5 Manufacturing requirements
5.1 Materials
5.1.1 General
The materials of the pressure gauge components liable to come into contact with the gas shall have adequate
resistance to the chemical action of the gas under operating conditions.
Bourdon tubes and other parts in contact with acetylene gas shall conform to ISO 9539.
5.1.2 Oxygen pressure gauges
Bourdon tubes and other parts in contact with the gas shall be resistant to the chemical action of the oxygen
and shall not be flammable under operating conditions.
Thread sealants or sealing rings shall also be resistant to the chemical action of the oxygen and shall not be
flammable under operating conditions.
Components in contact with oxygen gas shall conform to ISO 9539.
Only lubricants suitable for use in oxygen at the service pressure and temperature shall be used.


<snip>


http://imgur.com/VGXcste


----------



## Exile

For anyone that is interested, here are some pics of Brewmans regulator











eldertaco said:


> Ok, I found a copy of ISO 5171:2010. Not too much in it about oxygen but it does say that for an oxygen gauge the dial must be marked with OXYGEN or O and the crossed out oil symbol.


I believe that Brewmans regulator has the O stamped on them


----------



## eldertaco

So ISO 5171:2010 only refers to the gauges. At this stage I think what we're after is

ISO 2503:2009/ A1:2015 - Gas welding equipment -- Pressure regulators and pressure regulators with flow-metering devices for gas cylinders used in welding, cutting and allied processes up to 300 bar (30 MPa)


----------



## eldertaco

Exile said:


> I believe that Brewmans regulator has the O stamped on them


And it also says EN 2503 which is what I'm pretty sure now is the relevant standard for the regulator part. Bit of a shame the gauge doesn't look to be compliant with 5171 though, as there is no use no oil or oxygen marked on it.


----------



## Exile

eldertaco said:


> And it also says EN 2503 which is what I'm pretty sure now is the relevant standard for the regulator part. Bit of a shame the gauge doesn't look to be compliant with 5171 though, as there is no use no oil or oxygen marked on it.


It has ISO 5171 stamped on the Gauge tho


----------



## eldertaco

Well it would be compliant if it were connected to anything except oxygen or acetylene, see my second link above.


----------



## Zorco

Exile said:


> It has ISO 5171 stamped on the Gauge tho
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160824_131256_001.jpg


ISO 5171:2009 specifies requirements for Bourdon-tube pressure gauges normally used with compressed gas systems at pressures up to 30 MPa (300 bar) in welding, cutting and allied processes. It also covers use for dissolved acetylene and for liquefied gases under pressure. It does not cover gauges for acetylene in acetylene-manufacturing plants.

Logically, just because this gauge states compliance to 5171, DOES NOT mean that it is suited to Oxygen. I'll try and find a copy, but I think I'd be looking for the section on Oxygen and wouldn't be surprised to find the requirement "USE NO OIL"


----------



## fishingbrad

Exile said:


> For anyone that is interested, here are some pics of Brewmans regulator
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160824_131256_001.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that Brewmans regulator has the O stamped on them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> O.jpg


Yep that's the one I've got. I tried to read the stamping this morning without my glasses- Fail. so thanks for the photo.


----------



## eldertaco

Found a copy of ISO2503:2009 (not the 2015 revision though).


Gas welding equipment — Pressure regulators and pressure
regulators with flow-metering devices for gas cylinders used in
welding, cutting and allied processes up to 300 bar (30 MPa)

1 Scope
This International Standard specifies requirements for single or two-stage pressure regulators without flowmetering
devices for connection to gas cylinders used for
⎯ compressed gases up to 300 bar 1) (30 MPa),
⎯ dissolved acetylene,
⎯ liquefied petroleum gases (LPG),
⎯ methylacetylene-propadiene mixtures (MPS), and
⎯ carbon dioxide (CO2),
for use in welding, cutting and allied processes. It does not cover pressure regulators having a nominal outlet
pressure p2 > 20 bar.
This International Standard also specifies requirements for single or two-stage pressure regulators with flowmetering
devices for connection to gas cylinders used for
⎯ compressed gases or mixtures up to 300 bar (30 MPa), and
⎯ carbon dioxide (CO2),
for use in welding, cutting and allied processes. Typical processes using this equipment are: tungsten inert-gas
arc welding (TIG), metal-arc inert-gas welding (MIG), metal-arc active-gas welding (MAG), plasma arc welding,
tubular-cored-wiretubular-cored-wire welding and plasma cutting. Annex B gives examples of flow-control
systems and their flow-measuring devices.
This International Standard does not cover pressure regulators intended for direct use on cylinder bundles.
Such regulators comply with the safety requirements of ISO 7291, in particular with the adiabatic compression
test for oxygen regulators.

<snip>


5.2 Design and construction
5.2.1 Oxygen pressure regulators
Pressure regulators for oxygen shall be designed and manufactured while giving consideration to the
possibility for internal ignition. Pressure regulators for oxygen shall not ignite or show evidence of burning
when submitted to the ignition test in 9.7.4.
All components and accessories shall be thoroughly cleaned and degreased before assembly.

<snip>

http://imgur.com/ddnWLEK

6.3 Equipment classes for pressure regulators without flow-metering devices


Performance is measured at the standard discharge Q1 and nominated outlet pressure specified by the
manufacturer.
Preferred values of p2 and Q1 are given in Table 3, but other values may be specified by the manufacturer.

http://imgur.com/DpMpAKJ

http://imgur.com/Ebhctpb


8 Instructions for use
The manufacturer, supplier or distributor shall supply instructions for use with each pressure regulator,
and with each pressure regulator with a flow-metering device, covering at least:
a) the field of application of the pressure regulator; or
B) the field of application of the pressure regulator with a flow-metering device; in particular the range of
specific gravity of the gases or gas mixtures for which it can be used;
EXAMPLE Flow meter which can be used for mixtures ranging from an argon-carbon dioxide mixture (specific
gravity: 1,69) up to an argon-hydrogen mixture (specific mass: 1,57).
c) a description of the pressure regulator, or of the pressure regulator with a flow-metering device and the
meaning of the marking;
d) the safe and correct installation of the pressure regulator, or of the pressure regulator with a flowmetering
device;
e) the commissioning tests that are necessary to prove safe and correct installation prior to service;
f) the use and maintenance of the pressure regulator, or of the pressure regulator with a flow-metering
device (intended for the operator);
g) hazards and safety precautions in the case of oxygen.




9 Type-test procedure
9.1 General
Checking conformity to this International Standard of a pressure regulator, or a pressure regulator with a flowmetering
device of a given type, consists of
⎯ tests, and
⎯ checking of documents.
Conformity to the requirements of the present International Standard can be confirmed by an independent
body.
The oxygen ignition test (see 9.7.4) shall be carried out after the tests for performance and operating
characteristics (see 6.6.1 and 6.6.2) and before the resistance test to internal pressure (see 9.7.2.1).
NOTE These are type tests applicable to pressure regulators only for verifying conformity to this International Standard
and are not intended as a programme for production testing of all pressure regulators.

The rest of the references to oxygen are with reference to the test procedures, not really relevant here.


So from my reading the Brewman kit has a regulator approved for use with oxygen, with a non-approved for oxygen use pressure gauge attached. Of course, that's just my layman's reading.


----------



## n87

For those interested in getting refillable cylinders, have a look at Gasweld.
They actually sell them, though its an exchange, not a refill.
And it looks like they only have a D and G size in oxygen (would be great if they had a C)

Bulk buy may work in this case?


----------



## mstrelan

n87 said:


> For those interested in getting refillable cylinders, have a look at Gasweld.
> They actually sell them, though its an exchange, not a refill.
> And it looks like they only have a D and G size in oxygen (would be great if they had a C)
> 
> Bulk buy may work in this case?


Is this the C one you're after? http://www.gasweld.com.au/speed-gas-gas-kit-oxygen-c-size-includes-bottle-oxygen-gas-oxygen-c-kit


----------



## mstrelan

I believe Gas Weld is a distributor of Speed Gas products. 

SpeedGas sells Beer Gas (N + CO2), perhaps they would be more open to the home brewing community.

Is it strange that they list Oxygen as non-flammable on their Safety Data Sheet?


----------



## MHB

Yep I have a C sized Argon bottle, Needed a little bottle that I could carry up a ladder to do some TIG work.
They told me the bottle could be returned for a refund - like Bunnings. No, apparently they changed their minds, you buy it you own it for life (eBay/Gumtree excepted).

If I were to go for a larger O2 bottle I would look at the one from Bunnings or one of the other swap and go offers. But I would want assurance in writing that I could return it and get a refund - That did get me pissed off.
Be a while before Gasweld see any more of my money.
Mark


----------



## n87

mstrelan said:


> I believe Gas Weld is a distributor of Speed Gas products.
> 
> SpeedGas sells Beer Gas (N + CO2), perhaps they would be more open to the home brewing community.
> 
> Is it strange that they list Oxygen as non-flammable on their Safety Data Sheet?



Oxygen itself inst technically flammable.
However, it is one of the required components for combustion


----------



## Crusty

Do any of you guys know if there is an actual difference in oxygen grades. I saw on the BOC website that they have oxygen listed as food grade as well as other grades. Is there really a difference? Ive been told my Tradeflame cylinder was not food grade.


----------



## n87

MHB said:


> Yep I have a C sized Argon bottle, Needed a little bottle that I could carry up a ladder to do some TIG work.
> They told me the bottle could be returned for a refund - like Bunnings. No, apparently they changed their minds, you buy it you own it for life (eBay/Gumtree excepted).
> 
> If I were to go for a larger O2 bottle I would look at the one from Bunnings or one of the other swap and go offers. But I would want assurance in writing that I could return it and get a refund - That did get me pissed off.
> Be a while before Gasweld see any more of my money.
> Mark



I got a D Argon/CO2 mix for my mig a couple of years ago. Was the best bang for buck around at the time that I found.
The main thing that got me in was the whole 'you own it' thing.


----------



## technobabble66

Crusty said:


> Do any of you guys know if there is an actual difference in oxygen grades. I saw on the BOC website that they have oxygen listed as food grade as well as other grades. Is there really a difference? Ive been told my Tradeflame cylinder was not food grade.


Someone, i think maybe DJ_L3thal (?, as i believe he works in the gas industry), stated a while back (this year sometime) on this or another thread that at their refill site, the Food grade & Industrial grade O2 comes from the same batch - i.e.: it's all food grade, as it's easier to just produce it all at that one standard.
Sorry - i know that's effectively just hearsay, but it might point you in the direction of where to look for better info.

FWIW, the big problem i had talking to Companion Brands a few months ago about using their setup (from Bunnings) to aerate wort was all about the gas "expert"/engineer in the office not being comfortable with me using the oxygen on a food/beverage product.
He seemed totally fine with the "conversion kit" regulator they sell at bunnings being ok for their disposable bottles, but was VERY uncomfortable with the O2 in their bottles not being officially classed as Food Grade. Seemed a bit arse about to me. I believe he basically agreed that the oxygen had to be ~pure out of their bottles, but as it still wasn't classed as Food Grade so he had to warn me not to use it.
I was much more concerned about whether i'd be blowing up in the process!


----------



## Coldspace

So does the brewman regulator fit theses trade flame bottles?


----------



## Exile

eldertaco said:


> So from my reading the Brewman kit has a regulator approved for use with oxygen, with a non-approved for oxygen use pressure gauge attached. Of course, that's just my layman's reading.


I have emailed Wika the makers of the Gauges asking if these gauges where safe with oxygen and the reply was.....

[SIZE=12pt]All pure oxygen bottles are required to have a gauge “cleaned for oxygen’[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This is because any dirt grime or oil will cause a spark and potentially an explosion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This gauge *is not*[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] “clean for oxygen”[/SIZE]


----------



## Benn

Came across this interesting page while looking for infomation on AS-4267
http://www.tesuco.com.au/blog/2012-12/new-blog-oxygen-regulators-the-bomb-test-(as4267)

FWIW here is a pic of the "WIKA" brand pressure gauge on my Oxygen regulator.


----------



## eldertaco

Benn said:


> Came across this interesting page while looking for infomation on AS-4267
> http://www.tesuco.com.au/blog/2012-12/new-blog-oxygen-regulators-the-bomb-test-(as4267)


Found that same page earlier while looking for the same thing. Also found this post http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/67241-oxyturbo-aeration-kit/?p=1159363 which mentions the tesuco oxyturbo gas regulator (ots200RO) for use with the oxyturbo bottles...

Then when you look at that product code on the tesuco page http://www.tesuco.com.au/products/spare-parts-and-fittings/portable-brazing-equipment/turboset-200 you find this picture 




Which clearly has a not-approved-for-oxygen ISO 5171 gauge on it. :unsure:

Which left me unsure what to think.


----------



## fishingbrad

Exile said:


> I have emailed Wika the makers of the Gauges asking if these gauges where safe with oxygen and the reply was.....
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]All pure oxygen bottles are required to have a gauge “cleaned for oxygen’[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=12pt]This is because any dirt grime or oil will cause a spark and potentially an explosion.[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=12pt]This gauge *is not*[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] “clean for oxygen”[/SIZE]


Does say "All pure Oxygen bottles" which would be Lab/ Medical ?. can we assume the disposables are not "pure" ??


----------



## eldertaco

I think when they say pure they mean it's 99%+ oxygen, and not mixed with say argon for welding purposes.


----------



## Bribie G

Over 300 posts, man this thread has really exploded.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

peteru said:


> It should be possible to predict the amount of oxygen generated based on the amount of chemicals used. Are there other cheap and readily available chemicals that would provide a clean and safe oxygen source for a method like this?


Standard percarbonate is 27.5% H202 equivalent so the available oxygen is 13%.

Another possibility is simple electrolysis of water: you get hydrogen at the cathode and oxygen at the anode. If you run a solar system this would be free in both the senses above.

You would need to know the internal volume of the equipment and the pressure required to get flow out of the sinter when submerged in wort. The pressure could be measured with a simple water manometer.

If I keep brazing the stainless bits on the bikes I am thinking of converting to an oxygen generator / acetylene system which would definitely work for wort oxygenation. At this stage though I think I'm going to move to TIG welding.


----------



## Feldon

peteru said:


> Right, now that the regulator battles seem to be in ceasefire...
> 
> Taking a different approach to the problem of introducing the appropriate amount of oxygen into wort. An approach that does not involve oxygen under high pressure. Would it be practical to use a simple chemical process to generate enough oxygen at low pressure to oxygenate wort? For example, place some sodium percarbonate into a flask, add hot water and plug the flask with a hose that is connected to a diffuser submerged in wort? It should be possible to predict the amount of oxygen generated based on the amount of chemicals used. Are there other cheap and readily available chemicals that would provide a clean and safe oxygen source for a method like this?


Good idea for those who don't want the upfront cost of an O2 gas bottle setup.

A better approach than generating gaseous oxygen by chemical reaction to bubble through the wort might be to add hydrogen peroxide to, say, a litre of water and adding all of that directly into the wort pre yeast pitching (Hydrogen peroxide breaks down to oxygen and water).

How much standard 3% hydrogen peroxide solution to add? Dunno. Have to leave that the the Sheldon Coopers to work out. But here's some of the science on oxygenating wort from an old 2008 _Brew Your Own_ magazine article, 'Are welding oxygen canisters safe to use for wort aeration?'.

_Let’s say you want to add 8 mg/L of oxygen to your 20-liter batch, you can see that you will need 160 mg of oxygen... 160 mg is equivalent to 0.005 moles of oxygen (0.16 grams/32 grams of oxygen per mole = 0.005 moles). If you multiply 0.005 moles by 22.4 l/mole you see that 0.112 liters of oxygen are required to supply the 160 mg required to yield a concentration of 8 ppm in your 20 liters of wort._

https://byo.com/mead/item/2040-are-welding-oxygen-canisters-are-safe-to-use-for-wort-aeration


----------



## Zorco

Bribie G said:


> Over 300 posts, man this thread has really exploded.


 the pursuit of truth can take a windy road.


----------



## feralbass

This has been a great read!!


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Sheldon Brown here.

Peroxide is 16 / 34 available oxygen so to get 8 ppm O2 you need 17 ppm peroxide. if your solution is 30% you would need to add 17 x 10-6 / 3 x 10 -1 which is 5.7 x 10-5 parts, call it 6. That's 60 ul of 30 % peroxide per litre of wort or 1.2ml for 20 litres.

Edit: Just noticed you said 3%, sorry, I usually use peroxide at 30%. Just multiply volumes by 10 eg 0.6 ml per litre of wort, 12 ml for 20 litres.

I'd be interested to know how this goes: yes peroxide breaks down to oxygen and water but from experience when adding it to white grape juice, it does a lot of oxidation before it breaks down.


----------



## manticle

So our consensus is that the dynaweld/bossweld regulators are not appropriate for use with pressurised Oxygen, Yes?
Just want to make it clear - I will probably need to do some more judicious thread pruning

Anyone who still thinks they are OK - please PM me rather than post here just so we can stave off any more shitfighting.

Safety of members is the main priority here.

Cheers


----------



## Zorco

Instead of pruning, you should leave history as it is... None of the recommendations are malicious. No one has actually been harmed with this equipment to date.(h&s notices search through work)

Instead, paste a big link saying,"The conclusion of this debate is that these regulators are not safe. This is not the view of Authorities, but is the conclusion from our community members." And link to the end of the discussion.

If someone takes this up with an authority and succeeds in having the product removed from Australia, then Rule 4 can be invoked.

Remember, no one has evidence these are not safe.


----------



## manticle

My method of moderating wasn't so much intending on removing material but adding edited lines with a warning about not being used as designed by manufacturer or somesuch.


----------



## SBOB

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Instead of pruning, you should leave history as it is... None of the recommendations are malicious. No one has actually been harmed with this equipment to date.(h&s notices search through work)
> 
> Instead, paste a big link saying,"The conclusion of this debate is that these regulators are not safe. This is not the view of Authorities, but is the conclusion from our community members." And link to the end of the discussion.
> 
> If someone takes this up with an authority and succeeds in having the product removed from Australia, then Rule 4 can be invoked.
> 
> Remember, no one has evidence these are not safe.


indeed... considering the gauge on one of the alternatives doesnt seem to be 100% oxygen compliant i think this thread should remain as is for future information and continued research

personally, for non welding applications I think the Bossweld regulator is suitable for the application in question based on its EN certification and the knowledge that i wont be using any oil lubricants on it


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

How do you know Bossweld haven't used oil and lubricants inside the reg?

It's one thing to say that there is no proof that the boss weld etc refs are not safe. But that is inherently wrong as when safety is concerned you should employ the reverse logic being that until there is evidence that they ARE safe for oxygen use then people should tread wearily and perhaps look at other alternatives which are stamped for oxygen use.

Re: types/grades of oxygen, the method of manufacture and location of such is the same, it all comes from air through the same air separation units. The processing, transfer and filling downstream however will vary.

I think my point last time was more around the risks of contaminants and particles entrained in oxygen being so great that the impurity levels in oxygen will be extremely low no matter which grade.

Industrial, good grade etc is another kettle of fish. I can confirm medical is handled and processed/filled in a completely different process. The others may or may not be but there are certainly efficiencies in filling from one process as opposed to many different pieces of equipment for many different gas types.

I recall visiting an ice cream facility where the 'no name' brand was filled from same line and actually same product as the 'named brand', absolutely no different other than the label. So it's nothing new in mass manufacturing.


----------



## SBOB

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> How do you know Bossweld haven't used oil and lubricants inside the reg?


well, considering they previously (MHB called and apparently they no longer do) sold disposable oxygen cylinders with the same regulator and advertised them all in the same 'disposable' range I would find it strange for them to list a regulator incompatible with disposable cylinders that they sold at the time...

Also, if contained oil wouldn't it be an automatic flammable/explosive hazard? 

But how do we know any of the alternatives don't either, as some of their gauges do not seem to adhere to being oxygen compliant, but none of those are seeming to be scrutinised


----------



## Zorco

SBOB said:


> indeed... considering the gauge on one of the alternatives doesnt seem to be 100% oxygen compliant i think this thread should remain as is for future information and continued research
> 
> personally, for non welding applications I think the Bossweld regulator is suitable for the application in question based on its EN certification and the knowledge that i wont be using any oil lubricants on it


yeah, I think you're wrong mate. And I can support it. My company doesn't have an ISO subscription at the moment but this is handy

https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:5171:ed-3:v1:en

On the left you have the TOC you can expand Section 5 down to 5.1.2. There you see a dedicated section for Oxygen.

That standard covers many... you want Oxygen specific. ISO 5171 marked means stuff all for meeting oxygen requirements.


The way you reasoned is the danger. We're looking for "USE NO OIL" on the gauge.


And here

http://www.wikapolska.pl/upload/DS_PM0106_GB_4027.pdf

A data sheet applying the safety pattern of ISO 5171 and the "USE NO OIL" symbol.

Check again mate.


----------



## SBOB

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> The way you reasoned is the danger. We're looking for "USE NO OIL" on the gauge.
> 
> 
> And here
> 
> http://www.wikapolska.pl/upload/DS_PM0106_GB_4027.pdf
> 
> A data sheet applying the safety pattern of ISO 5171 and the "USE NO OIL" symbol.
> 
> Check again mate.


then there isn't currently any disposable kit being sold thats going to tick that box...


----------



## Zorco

SBOB said:


> well, considering they previously (MHB called and apparently they no longer do) sold disposable oxygen cylinders with the same regulator and advertised them all in the same 'disposable' range I would find it strange for them to list a regulator incompatible with disposable cylinders that they sold at the time...


This is the point....It isn't strange.. it is wrong. You may well find one of us pursing this with a federal regulator.

MHB said he would do something similar.... But I'd understand it if he was cashed in on this one.

I'll make some calls tomorrow.


Edit: Soz SBOB...removed the grumpy in the first line.


----------



## Zorco

SBOB said:


> then there isn't currently any disposable kit being sold thats going to tick that box...


So far as the options presented in this thread to date.... CORRECT.

Unless you re-purpose the tradeflame welding kit with the inclusive reg/gauge. $299

I think that's the only one..... That's the one I took a photo of at Bunnings last night. The yellow box on the left was the kit.


----------



## SBOB

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> yeah, I think you're wrong mate. And I can support it. My company doesn't have an ISO subscription at the moment but this is handy
> 
> https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:5171:ed-3:v1:en
> 
> On the left you have the TOC you can expand Section 5 down to 5.1.2. There you see a dedicated section for Oxygen.
> 
> That standard covers many... you want Oxygen specific. ISO 5171 marked means stuff all for meeting oxygen requirements.


5.1.2 
Bourdon tubes and other Parts in contact with the gas shall be resistant to the Chemical action of the Oxygen and shall not be flammable under operating conditions. 

Thread sealants or sealing rings shall also be resistant to the Chemical action of the Oxygen and shall not be flammable under operating conditions. 

Components in contact with Oxygen gas shall conform to ISO 9539.
Only Iubricants suitable for use in Oxygen at the service pressure and temperature shall be used.


----------



## SBOB

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Edit: Soz SBOB...removed the grumpy in the first line.


ha.. dont worry about it 

Considering this is all just a research/investigation debate none of us should be taking any of the agreement/disagreements personally..
Though this kind of investigation goes to show why things like standards documentation probably should be something that the regular 'Joe' on the street cant access without paying huge $. If consumer purchasable items should adhere to certain standards, those standards should be discoverable, researchable and verifiable
This thread shows how difficult or full of assumptions that process seems to be


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

WARNING: OFF TOPIC



SBOB said:


> If consumer purchasable items should adhere to certain standards, those standards should be discoverable, researchable and verifiable
> This thread shows how difficult or full of assumptions that process seems to be


Tell me about it.

The ISO promulgated a new standard for testing of bicycle frames a year or so back, effectively superseding the Euronorm (EN 14781) that had been the de facto world standard. Athough I already had a copy of the EN, I signed up to SAI Global and bought the ISO (4210) which comes in six parts at $170 each part.

On receiving the new ISO 4210-6 (the relevant standard for road bikes) I found that it was effectively identical to EN14781. Not happy Jan.


----------



## MHB

In the absence of an AS an ISO, US and European standards are often used for guidance.
Just because Europe requires the Use No Oil description/mark, that doesn't mean its a "Requirement" under what passes for rules here.
Our legal system is very strongly bases the behaviour on reasonable people and personal responsibility.
In this case you would be ill-advised to sell a regulator that didn't meet some safety standard, and be able to prove to a judge that you did so. Otherwise the seller would be personally liable for any harm.

And no, international standards are easily available - Just PAY, its a cost of doing business. I don't know if it's still the case but all public libraries used to have access to all of the Australian Standards, they could be assessed free by the public.

So there is nothing under Australian "Law/Rules/Regulations..." that requires the gauge on a regulator used on disposable bottles to display Use no Oil description or symbol. But the regulator and gauge better comply with accepted standards or someone will be carrying their nuts home in a handbag.

Mark


----------



## Coldspace

So is the regulator that is sold by Hampdon welding that comes with a 1 ltr oxygen bottle the same as my Bossweld reg?

Looks identical from the photo.


----------



## SBOB

Coldspace said:


> So is the regulator that is sold by Hampdon welding that comes with a 1 ltr oxygen bottle the same as my Bossweld reg?
> 
> Looks identical from the photo.


yep... exactly the same one
along with 02 bottles that apparently are no longer available


----------



## Coldspace

SBOB said:


> yep... exactly the same one
> along with 02 bottles that apparently are no longer available


Well looks like they are still available , and those bottles look identical to my trade flame bottle just diff sticker.

If they are selling these for welding or cutting, then I'm still going to use mine for wort bubbling .

Just after I use it, I'll disconnect it to stop the reg leaking slowly and store the bottle with its rubber cap on and the reg sealed up in a bag or container to prevent crap getting in it.

Is this how some of you do it?


----------



## Coldspace

BTW guys, for ales are you bubbling for say 1 min at 2 ltrs a min and maybe 90 secs for lagers?


----------



## GalBrew

So how about the Fermentap setup sold by Brewmart? Has a little brass regulator with no gauge to use on Bernzomatic oxygen bottles.


----------



## TheWiggman

A bit of perspective on this - because something isn't deemed as safe doesn't make it unsafe, and because something is deemed as safe doesn't automatically make it safe. A 'non-compliant' (ie advertised as acceptable for a few gasses or doesn't contain a stamp/logo) regulator or gauge may well be safe for oxygen (but you wouldn't want to bet that it is). Don't automatically assume that there is a high risk it will blow up instantaneously on first use because in reality you are more likely to crash your car tomorrow going to work. But that doesn't mean you should get any old gauge with gay abandon, because just like driving your car you stand a better chance of not crashing if the manufacturer has installed all the safety features and followed appropriate design standards. It's up to the buyer to decide and use, dare I say, common sense. 
Conversely, I recall an incident a few years back on a site with an oxygen cylinder. The gauge WAS O2 designed, had a flashback arrester on it and the cylinder was well within its inspection period. One morning though the boily blasted the oxy handle and BOOM! Regulator flew off and shit got dramatic fast. Fortunately nobody was injured. The cause was some crap in the reg from poor handling which ignited in the fashion mentioned in this thread. No amount of approvals or research can prevent that. 
My point is use common sense picking the right reg. If a supplier has done their research there's near enough to zero chance of you ever encountering an issue. You also need to take care of how you handle it at home, because you're more likely to cause harm through accidentally getting dirt in the thread than not putting a 'use no oil' stamp on it.


----------



## MHB

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> This is the point....It isn't strange.. it is wrong. You may well find one of us pursing this with a federal regulator.
> 
> MHB said he would do something similar.... But I'd understand it if he was cashed in on this one.
> 
> I'll make some calls tomorrow.
> 
> 
> Edit: Soz SBOB...removed the grumpy in the first line.


I did some follow up, in summary
The people who sell the regulators fall into two groups
1/ Those that sell an Oxygen regulator and an Oxygen bottle. Tradeflame only sell their bottle as a spare part/consumable for their brazing kit which has an Oxygen regulator, and the bottle/regulator sold be Brewman, the Benzomatic bottle regulator combination...
2/ Those that sell welding (CO2,Argon, inert gas) regulators and gasses that aren't recommended for use with O2. These don't sell an O2 bottle (one has to wonder why)

The problems occur when someone takes components from disparate systems and mixes them up. Unfortunately its hard to stop people being stupid, but the manufactures/suppliers aren't really responsible. I strongly suspect that the O2 bottles will have in the fine print a warning about them only being suitable for very specific connection to the sellers own equipment. I'm sure that there is someone reading their bottle to prove me wrong.. please do so, but I will be surprised.

Mark


----------



## SBOB

MHB said:


> I did some follow up, in summary
> The people who sell the regulators fall into two groups
> 1/ Those that sell an Oxygen regulator and an Oxygen bottle.


Hampdon, 'Australias Online Welding Shop' is one that seems to fit this bill 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disposable-Gas-Bottle-PURE-OXYGEN-1x-l-litre-Bottle-Combo-Oxy-LPG-Acet-600037-/111621305999


----------



## MHB

Please, we have already established that Bossgas have discontinued their O2 bottles, just because someone has chosen to keep selling their old stock.

As above its hard to stop people being stupid, about half of them are dumber than average.
Mark


----------



## mstrelan

SBOB said:


> Hampdon, 'Australias Online Welding Shop' is one that seems to fit this bill
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disposable-Gas-Bottle-PURE-OXYGEN-1x-l-litre-Bottle-Combo-Oxy-LPG-Acet-600037-/111621305999


I contacted that seller towards the start of this thread and he said it would be fine to use. I actually suggested he add his two cents to this thread and he said he would take a look, but not sure if he had the time.


----------



## technobabble66

SBOB said:


> Though this kind of investigation goes to show why things like standards documentation probably should be something that the regular 'Joe' on the street cant access without paying huge $. If consumer purchasable items should adhere to certain standards, those standards should be discoverable, researchable and verifiable
> This thread shows how difficult or full of assumptions that process seems to be


^+1,000,000!!!
I tried researching the various Australian standards over a couple of hours today and just hit pay walls the whole way. 
What a ******* joke!!
How the hell are you meant to know what the appropriate standard is, what it means, and whether a particular item complies?!?! 
Which fuckwit or group of fuckwits signed off on that brilliant scheme of segregating such a critical collection of consumer information behind a paywall?! 
Of course that doesn't cover the minor issue of the "average person" trying to understand it *if* they could get to the applicable standards, but at least have them accessible!
******* ridiculous!

Bah! Where's that rant thread....


----------



## SBOB

MHB said:


> Please, we have already established that Bossgas have discontinued their O2 bottles, just because someone has chosen to keep selling their old stock.


Whether it's a current item or not, here we have a decent sized industrial retailer of welding supplies selling that regulator with a disposable oxygen bottle.. As a functioning oxygen kit.. 

Which means at some stage this was a current model regulator being sold with current model disposable gas cylinders.. 

They must be one of those ones on the dumb side then I guess...


----------



## SBOB

MHB said:


> As above its hard to stop people being stupid, about half of them are dumber than average.
> Mark


I think it's better to compare people against the median instead of average, it's more accurate as there are those really dumb ones bringing down the average...


----------



## Crusty

GalBrew said:


> So how about the Fermentap setup sold by Brewmart? Has a little brass regulator with no gauge to use on Bernzomatic oxygen bottles.


Nothing stamped on those little suckers.
Never heard of any explosions though to date.


----------



## Crusty

MHB said:


> Please, we have already established that Bossgas have discontinued their O2 bottles, just because someone has chosen to keep selling their old stock.
> 
> As above its hard to stop people being stupid, about half of them are dumber than average.
> Mark


I think you'll find they stopped selling the oxygen cylinders due to a lack of sales. It certainly wasn't due to any safety concerns.
I spoke with them on the phone about it a couple of days ago.


----------



## MHB

SBOB. At one stage people used Lead in house paint, Asbestos in cigarette filters, Mercury in polish for household silver...
Should things never change?

Why is this so hard to get your head around, what's the motivation. we have several existing systems that are safe, comply with modern standards and do the job well.
If I were to suggest that it was all about the extra $50... well go back to page 12 or so and start again.
Frankly your in intransigence in persisting that demonstrably unsafe equipment is just fine is approaching the level of trolling.



SBOB said:


> I think it's better to compare people against the median instead of average, it's more accurate as there are those really dumb ones bringing down the average...


And the really bright ones that push it up... Life is pretty good somewhere in the middle, if your on the low side of the line, you don't have to prove it!
Mark


----------



## Crusty

MHB said:


> I strongly suspect that the O2 bottles will have in the fine print a warning about them only being suitable for very specific connection to the sellers own equipment. I'm sure that there is someone reading their bottle to prove me wrong.. please do so, but I will be surprised.


I just went & checked my Tradeflame bottle. Nothing on there that states it should only be used or connected to any specific equipment or brand.


----------



## Zorco

MHB said:


> SBOB. At one stage people used Lead in house paint, Asbestos in cigarette filters, Mercury in polish for household silver...
> Should things never change?
> 
> Why is this so hard to get your head around, what's the motivation. we have several existing systems that are safe, comply with modern standards and do the job well.
> If I were to suggest that it was all about the extra $50... well go back to page 12 or so and start again.
> Frankly your in intransigence in persisting that demonstrably unsafe equipment is just fine is approaching the level of trolling.
> 
> And the really bright ones that push it up... Life is pretty good somewhere in the middle, if your on the low side of the line, you don't have to prove it!
> Mark


You're the dumbest smart person I know Mark.


----------



## MHB

Ah there really is no ******* point is there - stick it
M


----------



## SBOB

Crusty said:


> I think you'll find they stopped selling the oxygen cylinders due to a lack of sales. It certainly wasn't due to any safety concerns.
> I spoke with them on the phone about it a couple of days ago.


I should have bought my kit 12 months ago, as it would have been safe then....


----------



## Zorco

MHB said:


> Ah there really is no ******* point is there - stick it
> M


A rest will do you good sparky...


----------



## Crusty

MHB said:


> SBOB. At one stage people used Lead in house paint, Asbestos in cigarette filters, Mercury in polish for household silver...
> Should things never change?
> 
> Why is this so hard to get your head around, what's the motivation. we have several existing systems that are safe, comply with modern standards and do the job well.
> If I were to suggest that it was all about the extra $50... well go back to page 12 or so and start again.
> Frankly your in intransigence in persisting that demonstrably unsafe equipment is just fine is approaching the level of trolling.
> 
> And the really bright ones that push it up... Life is pretty good somewhere in the middle, if your on the low side of the line, you don't have to prove it!
> Mark


Th



MHB said:


> SBOB. At one stage people used Lead in house paint, Asbestos in cigarette filters, Mercury in polish for household silver...
> Should things never change?
> 
> Why is this so hard to get your head around, what's the motivation. we have several existing systems that are safe, comply with modern standards and do the job well.
> If I were to suggest that it was all about the extra $50... well go back to page 12 or so and start again.
> Frankly your in intransigence in persisting that demonstrably unsafe equipment is just fine is approaching the level of trolling.
> 
> And the really bright ones that push it up... Life is pretty good somewhere in the middle, if your on the low side of the line, you don't have to prove it!
> Mark


The problem here, once again Mark, is the need to start pushing the boundaries with your comments because you simply disagree with what you yourself deem to be unsafe. You have absolutely no proof whatsoever, nor can you give one form of proof that the reg in dispute is unsafe. All the disposable regulators lack some form of compliance branding, be it use no oil, compliance numbers etc. The reason I kept pushing back at you & your comments was you were questioning what the sellers & or distributors, tradies etc, have told me on the phone. Why do you persist & have a go at people that disagree with you.
All these regulators have to meet some form of compliance otherwise they would simply be withdrawn from sale & illegal to sell. So please, please stop pushing the unsafe line, you got no proof about their safety whatsoever.

I've sent out a worldwide warning to all these home brewers that use the little brass Bernzomatic regulators.
Stop what your doing now, your gunna blow yourselves up.
Warning: The following video may be so dangerous that it's advised to stop what your doing now.
Viewer discretion is advised.


----------



## Crusty

Coldspace said:


> So does the brewman regulator fit theses trade flame bottles?


The Tradeflame bottle has a standard M10 thread.
I'm not sure what the BR is but at a guess, I would think so.


----------



## Crusty

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> yeah, I think you're wrong mate. And I can support it. My company doesn't have an ISO subscription at the moment but this is handy
> 
> https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:5171:ed-3:v1:en
> 
> On the left you have the TOC you can expand Section 5 down to 5.1.2. There you see a dedicated section for Oxygen.
> 
> That standard covers many... you want Oxygen specific. ISO 5171 marked means stuff all for meeting oxygen requirements.
> 
> 
> The way you reasoned is the danger. We're looking for "USE NO OIL" on the gauge.
> 
> 
> And here
> 
> http://www.wikapolska.pl/upload/DS_PM0106_GB_4027.pdf
> 
> A data sheet applying the safety pattern of ISO 5171 and the "USE NO OIL" symbol.
> 
> Check again mate.


Does the Cigweld regulator tick all the required boxes?
It's rated for oxygen


----------



## osprey brewday

Trade flame oxygen reg only fits trade flame bottles
Have tried 3 different other brands from local wholesalers and none fit one is same size fitting but reverse thread. 
M10 is the size stated in the manual for trade flame set. Can post some measurements ect if any one needs them.
There is these also 
https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-brass-m10-to-m12-gas-adaptor-fitting_p5910344


----------



## Coalminer

What are the requirements (if any) for any equipment attached to the low pressure side of the regulator?
i.e. plastic lines, s/s dip tubes, air stones, plastic flow meter devices, clamps etc?
Does any of this equipment on the low pressure side pose any problems?
All of this equipment is probably the most easily contaminated by handling, cleaning, sanitizing etc

Genuine question : not shit-stirring


----------



## MHB

The Air Stone is made entirely of 316 Stainless, the ones I plumbed up used Barrier Line. This has a Nylon internal layer with a Polyethylene outer. Nylon (other than Teflon is about as good as you can get).
Could use solid Nylon but its about as flexible as 8-Gaug high tensile fencing wire, made the whole thing fairly unwieldy (yep was tested).

I wouldn't choose inexpensive PVC (CVT - Clear Vinyl Tube) just a bit too reactive and prone to leaching flavour's for my taste. Tho it is probably chemically safe - Nylon is better, the pressure rating on the Barrier line was a hell of a lot higher, so it was one of those cover your arse choices. Safe working pressure on 6mm line is 6 Bar (600kPa), 50% more than the reg puts out. This type of line is also much more resistant to the cleaning chemicals used in brewing so it was I think the best all round choice.
Good Reference - Coastal Pneumatics
Mark


----------



## Coalminer

Thanks
I extended mine with some CO2/Beer line
will rebuild it


----------



## MHB

Honestly beer line probably wont be a problem, as I was in retail at the time, take all care and be ready to spend time saying "well your Honor its was like this..."
I think we both know you're a thoughtful and careful brewer who isn't going to do anything too silly, the line you have isn't really an issue, a lot better than most people would choose.
Mark


----------



## mstrelan

Exile said:


> I have emailed Wika the makers of the Gauges asking if these gauges where safe with oxygen and the reply was.....
> 
> [SIZE=12pt]All pure oxygen bottles are required to have a gauge “cleaned for oxygen’[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=12pt]This is because any dirt grime or oil will cause a spark and potentially an explosion.[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=12pt]This gauge *is not*[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] “clean for oxygen”[/SIZE]


So what's the deal, is the gauge on the Brewman reg ok to use?


----------



## MHB

It is factory fitted to the regulator, which is sold as a dedicated Oxygen Regulator, with the standards to which it complies written on the regulator.
So YES! it is safe to use - not safe to abuse, as with all industrial equipment keep clean, use according to instructions, and think before doing anything out of the ordinary.
Mark


----------



## eldertaco

That doesn't seem right to me. The regulator is stamped EN 2503 and O for oxygen so that's all good, but the gauge is just stamped ISO 5171, and ISO 5171 states that oxygen-compatible gauges need to be stamped with USE NO OIL and OXYGEN as well.

Exile even emailed WIKA who made the gauges and they said they're not for use with oxygen. http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/77928-different-wort-aeration-kits/?p=1397214

Here's a picture of a gauge made by WIKA that IS approved for use with oxygen for reference.


----------



## warra48

Well, this has been a fascinating thread so far.
369 posts to date, all about jury rigging a system to save at most the cost of a batch of beer?

I have put one of Brewman's system on my wish list for Christmas. Couldn't be arsed doing it all for myself and running all over the place for separate bits and pieces.


----------



## bradsbrew

Almost too scared to use my brewman o2 kit now. I just hope there are no loud noises next time i am using it, might wear the brown undies just in case.


----------



## mstrelan

warra48 said:


> Well, this has been a fascinating thread so far.
> 369 posts to date, all about jury rigging a system to save at most the cost of a batch of beer?
> 
> I have put one of Brewman's system on my wish list for Christmas. Couldn't be arsed doing it all for myself and running all over the place for separate bits and pieces.


I don't think it's about saving a few bucks. Part of the reason people looked in to the Bossweld regulators was the flow meter. It also _appeared_ to be safe and why wouldn't you save the money _if it's just as good_. Now that we've uncovered all this information from the standards, some of us have pointed out that the Brewman one _might not_ meet those requirements either, so really you have to splash out for the full C-size kit if you want to make sure.


----------



## eldertaco

I'm currently using the bernzomatic based system, the one with a brass gaugeless regulator. It makes no reference to any standards on the reg but it does have oxygen stamped on it, along with some safety warnings about usage.


----------



## MHB

The gauges must have the Use NO Oil description or symbol to be sold in Europe under their standards.
In Australia the standards for fittings attached to disposable bottles are less well defined - the responsibility for ensuring that the equipment is safe and compliant with the demands of any standards fall on the importer/manufacturer.
So yes if a regulator is sold to fit a refillable bottle there must be the appropriate oil warnings as per the Australian standard.
No the Oil warnings aren't required for equipment for disposable bottles - however, the vendor is responsible for making sure that the equipment is safe, in this case that it has been tested to an acceptable standard for Oxygen equipment, the ISO mentioned would be a good one to choose. If you haven't done this testing and can prove it, if something bad happens you carry the can

Personally I would prefer to see the warning on the gauge, will be seeing Brewman on Friday for a couple of recipes, will ask that he get documentation from the supplier, first time I did this (back around 2010-2) I got about 20 pages in Italian.....

Remember that in the case of the fittings on disposable Oxygen bottles there are no AS requirements for any labelling, so Benzomatic are just fine as the importer is required to state safety and relevant compliance, and are responsible for the safety of what they sell.

I did a lot of checking and wore out my welcome with a couple of gas specialists at Work Cover, but at the time I started putting these together it was all a pretty much a mystery as at the idea of disposable bottles was quite new.

I have No concerns with the Benzomatic Regulator/Bottle combination, they have been around for a few years (over 150 I think), nor any other Oxygen Bottle/Regulator on the market where the parts are made/designed to work together.
Mark


----------



## Rambo

Does anyone have any problems with this regulator?


----------



## Crusty

Rambo said:


> Does anyone have any problems with this regulator?


You shouldn't run into any problems at all.
The only drawback is you can only attach them to the small Bromic or Bernzomatic cylinders which are quite small, about 40g of Oxygen I think.
The bigger cylinder setups are a bit more practical IMO.


----------



## Coldspace

Part of the reason I went with the tradeflame option was to get a cylinder with nearly 4 times the gas as a benzo one. Plus the ltr flow rate. More pratical than a small cyclinder without going full snot workshop setup. Especially for the amount I brew. Prob could have gone the Bunnings swap cyclinder option like the disposable option as well
That's all


----------



## Coldspace

Oxygenated up my first brews yest arvo, 
Mashed a double batch of Irish red. 
Tipped into 2 fermenters, bubbled 02 at 2.5 ltrs a min, for 1 minute each while gently stirring the wort.

Pitched a high krausen 2.5 ltr stepped up starter of Irish 1084 yeast that I got going from my freezer store earlier in week. 1.25 ltrs into each fermenter.

Checked today, and wow, really nice high even krausen in each fermenter at 19 c. Looking down through the glad wrap, the are identicle and deff are looking more healthy , quicker and that from my previous Irish reds I did with just starters and paint stirrer .

So far success I feel, can't wait to get into lagers this spring/summer.


----------



## Mall

I went the Brewman option, arrived in 3 days from Newcastle. 

1st effort yesterday, had a no-chilled amber ale in stock, O2'd for 60 seconds, stirred in liquid yeast (1 day on stir plate) that had a burst of 02 and popped into ferment fridge at 5pm @18C

Back from tennis 8.30pm and krausen starting to form on top.

Check at 6:00am this morning on way to airport, at least an inch of krausen.....wow this really works. 

Interested to see how long ferment takes as prior to 02, 10 days with US-05 was typical.


----------



## sp0rk

Mall said:


> I went the Brewman option, arrived in 3 days from QLD.
> 
> 1st effort yesterday, had a no-chilled amber ale in stock, O2'd for 60 seconds, stirred in liquid yeast (1 day on stir plate) that had a burst of 02 and popped into ferment fridge at 5pm @18C
> 
> Back from tennis 8.30pm and krausen starting to form on top.
> 
> Check at 6:00am this morning on way to airport, at least an inch of krausen.....wow this really works.
> 
> Interested to see how long ferment takes as prior to 02, 10 days with US-05 was typical.


Brewman is in Newcastle, I wonder why it came from QLD :/


----------



## Crusty

I have no reservations about using my little setup & will do so until the oxygen eventually runs out.
I did however purchase a much larger setup consisting of a Cigweld oxygen regulator
And the Bunnings Coregas deal that is a $200.00 refundable deposit + $69.00 for the oxygen. A simple cylinder swap thereafter for $69.00. If you opt out, return the cylinder & get your $200.00 deposit back. It's a bit more expensive this way but there's no argument now about parts compatibility.


----------



## Brewman_

I Suspect Mall, meant arrived to QLD in three days.

They all ship out of Newcastle.


----------



## Crusty

Isn't Mall in Melbourne?
Anyway, he received it quickly so that's good service.


----------



## Mall

Melb yep, QLD, Newcastle doesn't matter, quick delivery = happy customer!!


----------



## Brewman_

Good either way!

I am not sure who is who on here all the time.


----------



## peteru

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Just noticed you said 3%, sorry, I usually use peroxide at 30%. Just multiply volumes by 10 eg 0.6 ml per litre of wort, 12 ml for 20 litres.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how this goes: yes peroxide breaks down to oxygen and water but from experience when adding it to white grape juice, it does a lot of oxidation before it breaks down.


All I had on hand was an old bottle of 6% hydrogen peroxide. It's been kept in the dark and mostly under 25C, but the bottle was opened about 9 months ago and about 1/3 used. It's been shut since then. I've made the assumption that the concentration is still 6%.

I made a 1 litre starter wort, put it on a stirplate and let the temperature come up to 20C. I then added 0.3ml of 6% hydrogen peroxide at a rate of one drop every 30 seconds while the stirplate was going. Once that was complete I pitched in some yeast slury.

That was about 4 or 5 hours ago. I just checked the starter and it's looking very healthy.

Of course, this experiment does not prove anything, except that adding hydrogen peroxide at the rate suggested does not have a disastrous effect on the yeast. I guess the next step would be to do two starters, side-by-side and see what effect the peroxide has. I'll probably use hopped wort for that and will do a sensory evaluation too.


----------



## Coldspace

Back to my Irish red ales I O2 up and pitched 1084 last sat arvo as per earlier post above.

Nice thick krausens after 18 -24 hrs, moved along fast and healthy . Day 4 today and looks like their all finished up. 95%. I'll do a reading to confirm tomorrow or Friday when I get time. Then I'll be cc them at 0 degrees for 10 days before kegging.
Works a treat the O2.

Last red ales I did with 1084 after stirring up with paint stirrer still took solid 7 days with healthy starters then were left for another 5 days to finish the final 5% as the yeast lagged on slowly.

These batches look like done in 6 days max. Plus less chance of infections etc.

I'll be keen to do this on my up and coming summer lager season,

If your allgraining, temp control , starters etc, these 02 systems are like icing on the cake......


----------



## mstrelan

I've been ignoring it so many times but this was the straw that broke the camels back. It's O2, not 02. As in O for Oxygen, not 0 the number.


----------



## Coldspace

mstrelan said:


> I've been ignoring it so many times but this was the straw that broke the camels back. It's O2, not 02. As in O for Oxygen, not 0 the number.


One little typo.... Got anything productive to add?

When typing fast on an iPad , the numbers 0 2 are on same page , so, **** it , just go 02 people lol

If that annoys you, I feel pity on you.

Used O many times, some reason went 0, prob had a few too many sarvo....or were just typing fast on iPad...

Back to proper discussions,


----------



## Coldspace

Got a couple of lagers planned for next weekend, nice big 3 ltr stepped up starters, 02, oops , I ment O2 , 90 secs, and then Bam.

Prob will use up the little oxy kit fast, will get onto the bunnings swap n go system, I'll go thirds with 2 mates, plenty of oxygen then.

Cheers


----------



## Exile

Poor fuckin camel


----------



## mstrelan

Coldspace said:


> One little typo.... Got anything productive to add?


Actually yeah, and it's a bit 0T, but I was wondering why you need a 10 day CC?


----------



## manticle

mstrelan said:


> I've been ignoring it so many times but this was the straw that broke the camels back. It's O2, not 02. As in O for Oxygen, not 0 the number.


Camel's back.

Cop that, pedant.


----------



## Mardoo

Actually wouldn't it be "camel's" back?


----------



## manticle

The "camel's" back?
Where did he go? Why did wobbly not believe the "camel" is really a camel?


----------



## TSMill

I like to run mine for exactly O2 minutes.


----------



## Bribie G

Camels can run a lot longer than that.


----------



## TSMill

Because they have big toes.


----------



## peteru

Camel toes are likely to give your beer too much funk.


----------



## Zorco

I prefer to manage 02 camel toes at the same time.


----------



## TidalPete

Another off-topic post


----------



## warra48

OK chaps, we all love having fun, but let's get this thread back on topic please.


----------



## Zorco

Was good while it lasted. Reddit esque 

Does anyone know the type of the fitting / thread for the LP side of the Cigweld O2 regulator?


----------



## MHB

http://www.cigweld.com.au/product/cutskill-regulators/cutskill-oxy-regulator-si-800-kpa/
There is more than one O2 Regulator available from BOC/CIG, you will need to check the specific model.
Mark


----------



## Crusty

Here's my upgraded wort oxygenator.
It's the Bunnings Coregas setup with a Cigweld Oxygen regulator.
I'll get some proper tube before I use it for real. Just gave it a test run @5psi in some Starsan & 60sec on that setting will be more than enough. I don't think I'll need a replacement cylinder for quite a while.


----------



## SBOB

Crusty said:


> Here's my upgraded wort oxygenator.


man... you've changed. You use to be living on the edge of wort aeration kits and now this


----------



## Bribie G

Just a warning about using an airstone with a really stiff gas tube in a SS fermenting bucket .. you can scratch the inside as you wave it around. A wand is a good option so you can control it better than a tube that's bent and doesn't want to go where you want it to.





Ed: suppliers of kits might want to mention this on their sites, as it's a recent thingo; affordable SS only been around for a couple of years so a wand is a relatively inexpensive "must" for SS brewers.


----------



## Crusty

SBOB said:


> man... you've changed. You use to be living on the edge of wort aeration kits and now this


I've decided to change my tight arse ways. I've seen the light.
I still hold firm on my view of the disposable setup though. I'm more than happy to use it until the little cylinder runs out.
This setup will be part of a much bigger operation in the not too distant future which I'll talk about once we get through some more paper work.


----------



## Crusty

Bribie G said:


> Just a warning about using an airstone with a really stiff gas tube in a SS fermenting bucket .. you can scratch the inside as you wave it around. A wand is a good option so you can control it better than a tube that's bent and doesn't want to go where you want it to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scratch SS.jpg
> 
> 
> Ed: suppliers of kits might want to mention this on their sites, as it's a recent thingo; affordable SS only been around for a couple of years so a wand is a relatively inexpensive "must" for SS brewers.


I went with the oxywand from Ross so it sits on the bottom of the fermenter. I ferment in a 50L keg & I think the wand is a much better option.


----------



## Bribie G

Go, Northern Rivers !!!! B) B) B) B)


----------



## Crusty

zorsoc_cosdog said:


> Was good while it lasted. Reddit esque
> 
> Does anyone know the type of the fitting / thread for the LP side of the Cigweld O2 regulator?


It's the same as the the fittings that come with the Bossgas regulator......5mm and 3mm Push On outlet with standard 5/8 UNF thread


----------



## Coldspace

I just zippy tie my airstone to the end of my long plastic paddle . I use to mash in my grains. Spray with starsan then it works well as I can keep it down the bottom and stir slowly while pumping the 02, oops , O2 through.


----------



## Batz

Crusty said:


> Here's my upgraded wort oxygenator.
> It's the Bunnings Coregas setup with a Cigweld Oxygen regulator.
> I'll get some proper tube before I use it for real. Just gave it a test run @5psi in some Starsan & 60sec on that setting will be more than enough. I don't think I'll need a replacement cylinder for quite a while.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160902_171105.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160902_170927.jpg


The good thing about these is you can add a 9kg LPG bottle and have cutting, welding in the man shed as well.
I'm lucky as I already own all that gear.

Batz


----------



## Mr B

Bribie G said:


> Just a warning about using an airstone with a really stiff gas tube in a SS fermenting bucket .. you can scratch the inside as you wave it around. A wand is a good option so you can control it better than a tube that's bent and doesn't want to go where you want it to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scratch SS.jpg
> 
> 
> Ed: suppliers of kits might want to mention this on their sites, as it's a recent thingo; affordable SS only been around for a couple of years so a wand is a relatively inexpensive "must" for SS brewers.


Don't worry about the scratch Bribie, you've got a motherf--rking big hole in the bottom of your pot!!


----------



## Zorco

New regulator is working a treat, great quality gear. There is nothing better than the right equipment for the job.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Bribie G said:


> scratch SS.jpg


That'll buff right out.

Seriously: take to it with a maroon Beartex pad. Rinse with acid (citric works). Job done.


----------



## MHB

I have always questioned the ability of Citric Acid to passivate stainless steel, just cant see how it would be reactive enough, so have gone and looked it up.
MBAA - Practical Handbook for the Specialty Brewer V3 Brewing Engineering and Plant Operations p74-75 (all 3 books are worth owning)

A safer alternative to nitric acid is citric acid. For passivation, a 0.6 molar solution of anhydrous citric acid (...) adjusted to pH 3.0-3.5 with ammonium hydroxide, is heated to 70oC and recirculated through the CIP... for about an hour. This solution can also be applied to problem areas with a brush or mop for a relatively safe spot treatment.

Personally I just use pickling paste, but it isn't what you would call safe unless you exercise all due care.
Mark

Edit
0.6M Anhydrous Citric is around 120g/L


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

It works because iron citrate forms faster than chromium citrate and is more soluble, so applying citric to the surface increases the ratio of chromium and nickel to iron.

The strength and temperature you recommend would be suitable for post weld passivation inside pipes (where you can't use pickling paste), room temp is fine for minor operations like buffed out scratches.

I use a lot of stainless parts on my bike frames and use citric passivation post brazing. Since the grades of stainless I use are higher strength alloys* with lower corrosion resistance than 300 series alloys, poor passivation becomes obvious fairly quickly.

BTW it also works for taking out iron stains on kitchen benches but oxalic works faster.



*Mostly 17-4 PH and 410.


----------



## Coalminer

Interesting that there are a lot of different Oxygen qualities with a varying amounts of impurities supplied by BOC

One even has 20% CO2 "Food grade quality gas used to speed up fermentation and age wines as well as to form yeast in breweries."



https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/search/oxygen


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

I believe that grade is used for packaging meat so it stays a pretty red in the supermarket. I've never seen it used in a winery or brewery.



Edit: http://www.meatupdate.csiro.au/data/MEAT_TECHNOLOGY_UPDATE_01-4.pdf


----------



## BKBrews

I'm assuming this one has been brought up in this thread previously, but has anyone got experience with this?

http://kegking.com.au/filtration-aeration/wort-aerator-air-pump-kit.html

they recommend 15min of use in the wort?


----------



## husky

BKBrews said:


> I'm assuming this one has been brought up in this thread previously, but has anyone got experience with this?
> 
> http://kegking.com.au/filtration-aeration/wort-aerator-air-pump-kit.html
> 
> they recommend 15min of use in the wort?


Thats what im using as a stop gap until I sort out an oxygen cylinder. Seems to have worked ok on the two brews I have used it on. The last one was a lager and visible fermentation definitely kicked off quicker than usual.


----------



## BKBrews

> Thats what im using as a stop gap until I sort out an oxygen cylinder. Seems to have worked ok on the two brews I have used it on. The last one was a lager and visible fermentation definitely kicked off quicker than usual.


did you run it for 15min as suggested? I must admit I haven't looked into aeration much myself, but a lot of the kits people are using in this thread only require 1min or so?


----------



## husky

I did 15 mins. I dont have a DO meter to validate how long is required so will stick with 15 for now.
1 min only seems the go if you have pure O2.


----------



## dcan6303

OK, so I'm glad I saw this thread.

I have a disposable Tradeflame O2 cartridge and Tradeflame regulator conversion kit from Bunnings, which I now know is not suitable for oxygen so I won't be using it any more.

Can I just unscrew the reg off the bottle while full or are these a single use deal like little co2 cartridges? Do they have a valve in the top or some sort of puncture system? I don't want to vent the entire bottle if I can help it, especially if it's a potential bomb in my hands.


----------



## MHB

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> It works because iron citrate forms faster than chromium citrate and is more soluble, so applying citric to the surface increases the ratio of chromium and nickel to iron.
> 
> The strength and temperature you recommend would be suitable for post weld passivation inside pipes (where you can't use pickling paste), room temp is fine for minor operations like buffed out scratches.
> 
> I use a lot of stainless parts on my bike frames and use citric passivation post brazing. Since the grades of stainless I use are higher strength alloys* with lower corrosion resistance than 300 series alloys, poor passivation becomes obvious fairly quickly.
> 
> BTW it also works for taking out iron stains on kitchen benches but oxalic works faster.
> 
> 
> 
> *Mostly 17-4 PH and 410.


Not sure whether or not Citric is a good option for 410 series, I have done a fair amount of work with 440C and it has its own set of interesting challenges (like don't hacksaw too fast) it blues during heat treatment and cant be brazed without coming out way too brittle to be any use. Different alloy made for a different job.

What I quoted was from a brewing textbook specifically addressing 304 & 316 series brewing equipment.
I think all form of passivation (chemical and electrolytic) work the same way, by reducing the amount of Fe in the surface and by forming a Cr or Ni corrosion resistant oxide or phosphate layer. Citric acid works well if its used appropriately, misapplied it is likely not to passivate the surface and allow corrosion to start.
If the need to use Citric comes up I will do it as described above, as I am confidant that I would then get the result I was looking for.
Mark


----------



## Bribie G

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> That'll buff right out.
> 
> Seriously: take to it with a maroon Beartex pad. Rinse with acid (citric works). Job done.


Thanks
There is a lager in it at the moment but I will get onto it next time.


----------



## moonhead

dcan6303 said:


> OK, so I'm glad I saw this thread.
> 
> I have a disposable Tradeflame O2 cartridge and Tradeflame regulator conversion kit from Bunnings, which I now know is not suitable for oxygen so I won't be using it any more.


So the consensus is *not *to use the tradeflame regulator with the tradeflame oxy cylinder?


----------



## dcan6303

moonhead said:


> So the consensus is *not *to use the tradeflame regulator with the tradeflame oxy cylinder?


That was my take out. It's designed for shielding (inert) gasses only.


----------



## Coldspace

dcan6303 said:


> OK, so I'm glad I saw this thread.
> 
> I have a disposable Tradeflame O2 cartridge and Tradeflame regulator conversion kit from Bunnings, which I now know is not suitable for oxygen so I won't be using it any more.
> 
> Can I just unscrew the reg off the bottle while full or are these a single use deal like little co2 cartridges? Do they have a valve in the top or some sort of puncture system? I don't want to vent the entire bottle if I can help it, especially if it's a potential bomb in my hands.


The bottle has a non return valve built in, so yes you can just unscrew it.


----------



## peteru

Has anyone contemplated a medical grade oxygen concentrator/generator for O2 delivery to wort? From what I can see, you'd be looking at something like US$300 for one of those units. There are cheaper options too, like this one, which could come in at half the above price.

The advantage is that you would never have to worry about a refill, high pressure regulators and all the safety risks involved with gas under pressure. Flow control seems to be built in.


----------



## MHB

The one you linked can put out 90%+ O2 at 1l/m. That is a big improvement from what was available only a couple of years ago. Could be very effective, the older ones only produced 25-30% O2.

The main concern I had was, how do you tell whether or not it's working and/or how well, at some point the concentrator is going to give up the ghost and it will be pumping air. When I looked at concentrators it was for a bigger application and the purity of the O2 and the extra foaming from having (then) quite a lot of N2 mixed in made it a poor choice.

Would be interested in hearing how one goes, especially from someone with a DO meter.
Mark


----------



## Benn

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/262657604941 
Search for "Oxygen Analyzer" on eBay and plenty will come up. Often cheap second hand units are available as people upgrade to Multi gas analyzers.


----------



## Bribie G

Try it out on Great Grandma.

I was looking at those units originally but they all seemed to run at over $400 - a small version for aquariums, home brewers etc would surely be a seller. I wonder if any microbreweries use them.


----------



## Coldspace

Looks very interesting, 90% at 3 trs a minute. Would it have enough pressure behind it to push thru a stone at the bottom of wort?
I wonder if it has an indicator light or meter showing the O2 rate?


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

I've been looking to buy one for years but they've always been too expensive locally. They are very cheap second hand in the USA due to their bizarre health system: no insurer will touch a refurbished unit.

It not hard to assay oxygen content in gas. An easy method is to fill a small bag with the sample to be assessed and throw some iron hydroxide / iron oxide mix (sold as oxygen absorbers, easily obtainable from loopy Seppo survivalist websites). The change in volume of the bag after 24 hours will tell you the oxygen content.


----------



## Mardoo

This technique and knowledge, combined with the bodge...sweet.


----------



## GalBrew

Coldspace said:


> Looks very interesting, 90% at 3 trs a minute. Would it have enough pressure behind it to push thru a stone at the bottom of wort?
> I wonder if it has an indicator light or meter showing the O2 rate?


I used one once. I was told that 100% oxygen comes out and it had a flow meter, but it didn't really go above 2L/min.


----------



## Schooner_downunder

Was at Master's last night and picked up a bernzomatic disposable oxy tank ( 40 g) on sale at 25% off ($ 28 after discount). There were heaps of tanks left and reckon that they could be picked up for a steal in a month or so...


----------



## takai

Schooner_downunder said:


> Was at Master's last night and picked up a bernzomatic disposable oxy tank ( 40 g) on sale at 25% off ($ 28 after discount). There were heaps of tanks left and reckon that they could be picked up for a steal in a month or so...


Which regs do you use with these? I cant seem to find a reg anywhere.

Currently im considering a CoreGas D-size to use with a spare gas reg i have around... that way at least i can use it for the Oxy too.


----------



## Crusty

takai said:


> Which regs do you use with these? I cant seem to find a reg anywhere.
> 
> Currently im considering a CoreGas D-size to use with a spare gas reg i have around... that way at least i can use it for the Oxy too.


If your going to use it for Oxy as well, go the coregas from Bunnings.
I ended up going that way with a Cigweld oxygen regulator & I'm probably looking at exchanging my bottle sometime in the next 10yrs.


----------



## mstrelan

takai said:


> Which regs do you use with these? I cant seem to find a reg anywhere.


I'm guessing something like this - http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4839


----------



## takai

Well i have a TIG and MIG, so may as well complete the set. Already have a brazing kit that runs off LPG, but has the capability for Oxy too.


----------



## welly2

Just got my Brewman wort aeration kit this morning. Looking forward to giving it a whirl later this week. I thought for the money and afford spent trying to piece together a kit from different sources, I couldn't be bothered so just chucked some money at Brewman. Looks the business!


----------



## Inconceivable

Sorry if I've missed it in the first 15 pages of the thread but can anyone please help regarding which gas bottle/s are compatible with the Brewman O2 Reg Mark designed?

And where you can actually show up to buy them retail?

I know Mark mentioned Reeces in one post but I can't find it on their website and wonder if any Brewman kit owners know of any other alternatives to pickup a replacement O2 bottle......

Great thread by the way but I don't have 7 more pages in me before bed...


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Yep, Reece.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Wow what an epic thread. I just sat and read from beginning to end. I've learnt so much, that I've started to forget it again......

Seriously though, Crusty, I may have missed it, but what did the CIG regulator cost you and where did you buy it from. I got the cost of the bunnings oxygen cylinder and deposit, but what was the total for the other parts?


----------



## Crusty

Bunnings in Ballina. Cigweld cutskill oxygen regulator 800kpa. I think it was just under $80.00.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Cheers.


----------



## Inconceivable

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Yep, Reece.


Ta I'll have a crack at the Reece along Paramatta rd nearby here in Lewisham, Sydneys inner west

The staff there were baffled when I bought 18m of 1/2" copper to make my IC. At one stage they tried to give me an 18m long straight rod, not the roll. haha


----------



## alcoadam

Bribie G said:


> Just a warning about using an airstone with a really stiff gas tube in a SS fermenting bucket .. you can scratch the inside as you wave it around. A wand is a good option so you can control it better than a tube that's bent and doesn't want to go where you want it to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scratch SS.jpg
> 
> 
> Ed: suppliers of kits might want to mention this on their sites, as it's a recent thingo; affordable SS only been around for a couple of years so a wand is a relatively inexpensive "must" for SS brewers.


I appreciated the heads-up on this one. I didn't go into too much effort with a solution, though I did notice my "silicon" bottle top seals fit snug around the end of an airstone.
So far this has worked a treat :icon_cheers:

(would of posted a pic if smarter) :huh:

Cheers Bribie.


----------



## alcoadam

Clever dick... :chug:


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

That's a great idea!! I put a few very light marks on my chronical from even the slightest brush with the stone. So a "me proof" method such as this is awesome. Thanks. Where are your said silicone seals from? Similar to Grolsch lid seals or something else?


----------



## lost at sea

just read start to finish...my brain hurts. sleep me go now.


----------



## alcoadam

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> That's a great idea!! I put a few very light marks on my chronical from even the slightest brush with the stone. So a "me proof" method such as this is awesome. Thanks. Where are your said silicone seals from? Similar to Grolsch lid seals or something else?


Pop top bottle seals are the ones (like the Grolsch). Should be plenty at the local brew shop.

I have a few if you get stuck.


----------



## Inconceivable

For anyone who wants to buy the O2 locally to match the Brewman setup....

I did in fact get the exact right cylinder from Reece in for $57.86 in Lewisham, Sydney


----------



## nosco

Anyone using a disposable bottle with a gas flow meter? I have a trade flame bottle with gauge reg but apparently gas flow meters are easier to control and measure the output.
I wondering if you can use a reg with a flow meter attached or can you just incorporate a seperate flow meter in the line out.


----------



## TidalPete

nosco said:


> Anyone using a disposable bottle with a gas flow meter? I have a trade flame bottle with gauge reg but apparently gas flow meters are easier to control and measure the output.
> I wondering if you can use a reg with a flow meter attached or can you just incorporate a seperate flow meter in the line out.


Flow meter hooked up to the regulator here. Rubber bung keeps the bugs out when not in use.


----------



## nosco

Thats a perdy O2 setup Pete! Theres another project on the list.


----------



## Mikeyr

TidalPete said:


> Flow meter hooked up to the regulator here. Rubber bung keeps the bugs out when not in use.


That's awesome Pete, does the flow meter replace/incorporate the regulator? Looks like it on your rig?


----------



## sp0rk

Mikeyr said:


> That's awesome Pete, does the flow meter replace/incorporate the regulator? Looks like it on your rig?


I'd guess this is the one he's using
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/0-1-5LPM-1-5L-Flow-Meter-Flowmeter-Control-Valve-for-Oxygen-Air-Gas-Conectrator-/361865244213?hash=item5440d96e35:g:uQkAAOSwImRYaygJ


----------



## Mikeyr

sp0rk said:


> I'd guess this is the one he's using
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/0-1-5LPM-1-5L-Flow-Meter-Flowmeter-Control-Valve-for-Oxygen-Air-Gas-Conectrator-/361865244213?hash=item5440d96e35:g:uQkAAOSwImRYaygJ


Yep saw those, was wondering if they take the pressure direct from the tank or if you need to reduce first with a valve and it's on the low side. Doesn't look like it on Petes but he says "hooked up to regulator"??


----------



## moonhead

Mikeyr said:


> Yep saw those, was wondering if they take the pressure direct from the tank or if you need to reduce first with a valve and it's on the low side. Doesn't look like it on Petes but he says "hooked up to regulator"??


That's what I was wondering as well. I don't imagine that chinsy flow meter would handle the pressure of the tank directly...



TidalPete said:


> Flow meter hooked up to the regulator here. Rubber bung keeps the bugs out when not in use.


Any chance of getting a part list for this? Interested in the connection to the bottle and reg/flow meter in use!


----------



## nosco

Here's my TidalPete inspired setup. I already had the reg (ebay) before i got the flow meter (ebay) so i dont know if its necessary but is does make for a really really accurate setup (after a quick test). I haven't used it with the air stone on a stick and the flow meter setup so i havnt had a chance to try different time V flow options. Ill probably just stick with what is recommended in the Yeast Book (cant remeber). The $2.50 fire extinguisher holder was pretty useless but did make for a quick 5 min build. I need a better holder for my stone tube. Its what i had on hand.

Is it really necessary to disconnect the gas hose while not in use? Im not one that would know.


----------



## MHB

Mikeyr said:


> Yep saw those, was wondering if they take the pressure direct from the tank or if you need to reduce first with a valve and it's on the low side. Doesn't look like it on Petes but he says "hooked up to regulator"??


No chance of the flow meter taking bottle pressure (nor the lines from the bottle to the flow meter either for that matter) the one in the link is rated to 0.1mPa (100kPa) or 1 bar, I have a hunch the bottle pressure will be just a bit more than that (actually just looked it's 1,100kPa).

Be safe first OK.
Mark


----------



## gaijin

Hey guys - bit of a small update on the Bossweld reg for disposable bottles. Just bought mine after considering the 'risks' associated with non-adherence to known standards (and lack of standards in Australia for disposable bottle regs).

Seems the 'no oil' symbol has been put onto the face of the regulator. I wonder if they've had a enough calls through from anxious home brewers to warrant printing it just for us.

Edit: Also the reg says max 130Bar - the tradeflame bottle says PH - filling pressure 110 bar


----------



## technobabble66

Just out of interest, Gaijin, where did you buy that Bossweld reg, and what was its "official" name/reference?

Just curious if you got it from the big green shed, if I choose to go down this path later.


----------



## TidalPete

Mikeyr said:


> Yep saw those, was wondering if they take the pressure direct from the tank or if you need to reduce first with a valve and it's on the low side. Doesn't look like it on Petes but he says "hooked up to regulator"??


i got the O2 kit from Brewman & wasn't too happy with the beer line supplied as it was too stiff & unwieldy for my liking. I replaced the beer line with the same internal diameter silicon tubing from here --- http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Silicone-Tubing-Silicon-Vacuum-Hose-Air-Coolent-Water-Tube-Hose-Black-Red-Blue-/152148391255?var=&hash=item236cc03557:m:mG3TNptKyydMDmdG8gsuZjQ which fits nicely over the supplied hose barb that comes with the Brewman kit.
I got the stepless clamps for the silicon hose from one of the forum sponsors.

Got the flow meter from here -- http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/0-1-5LPM-1-5L-Flow-Meter-Flowmeter-Control-Valve-for-Oxygen-Air-Gas-Conectrator-/361865244213?hash=item5440d96e35:g:uQkAAOSwImRYaygJ & whilst not really necessary, makes for a more accurate dispersal of the O2 as nosco remarks (good work on your setup nosco!  )..

Control knob on the flow meter is left wide open & the regulator control cracked just enough for the lead shot in the flow meter to rise to the 1.0 litre/min mark where it stays for the 1.0 min & 20 secs it takes me to aerate 23.0 litres of wort (stop watch of course.  )

Alcoadam in Post 440 showed us how to avoid scratches to the fermenter by using a silicon pop-top bottle seal over the airstone which is a great idea.
Didn't have one handy but a regular O-ring works just fine.


----------



## gaijin

I got it from Trade Tools. Product number 600044 - you can look it up on their website. SEQ stores just got new stock in today according to the helpful bloke at the Slacks Creek store. Seems they were out in most stores across Brissy up til now.

The only reg the BGS stocks which fits the 10mm thread of disposable bottles is the Tradeflame one and it doesn't have a flowgauge (as far as I know). Also, they only stock it in some stores, so you may have to phone around.


----------



## gaijin

Here is a little extra information to help anyone target a certain oxygen content (ppm) in their wort. The charts are photographed from the book Yeast (Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff). Worth a read for gems like this.

I'll be targeting about 10ppm for my 3-7% alcohol beers.


----------



## rude

Why not 14ppm graph looks good at that level ?

Also fermented at 24 c thats high or did it go down to 18 c ?


----------



## gaijin

Because I'm cheap and will give Bunnings only as much of my dosh as I absolutely need to. the 9 ppm and 14 ppm lines converge at the same point.

What the chart doesn't show is the terminal gravity of the beers. The text above the chart states that "The 3 and 5 ppm beers did not attenuate as fully as the other samples, which attenuated a full degree Plato over the shaken sample". My guess is that the temperature has less of an impact (if any) on the terminal gravity - an 18C ferment would just shift the chart out maybe another 12 hours to where each sample would hit the same terminal gravity as if brewed at 24C. They would just have more esters. The experiment was done with WLP001 which is recommended 20C to 23C.


----------



## gaijin

So, this is a bit embarrassing. I've just tried to use the tradeflame O2 and Bossgas reg in combo and the pin in the reg seems not to be depressing the non-return valve in the cannister. Anyone with this setup care to share any hints on getting flow?

It's on hand tight and I've turned the reg as far as it will go.


----------



## gaijin

It looks like the pin in the Bossweld reg and the valve head in the Tradeflame bottle don't come anywhere near touching when everything is done up. If this combo worked before, the new manufacturing runs seem to have different specs as they're no longer compatible.

Will call around to a few Bunnings when I next get a chance to see if they have the Tradeflame brand regs (without a flow gauge). Will report back in case anyone else is looking to go down this route.


----------



## manticle

I know it's been said earlier but please do your research properly (everyone looking at O2 setups) - O2 is not a forgiving mistress in the case of accidents.


----------



## gaijin

I'm having issues making my mistress put out at the moment.


----------



## MHB

So for a self confessed tight arse trying to save money (something mistresses aren't very fond of), lets look at where you are upto.
O2 gas bottle $55, Reg $43, Airstone $23 Comes to over $120 Plus you will need some line hose clamps call it another $5 so you have spent $12, plus a couple of trips to various suppliers with more to come.

You still don't have a working system.

I suspect that the supplier has made that reg so it wont fit onto the oxygen bottle, for all the reasons listed in earlier posts, and a healthy dose of risk avoidance on their part. Looks like they aren't even stocking an O2 bottle (at least one compatible with that reg).
At a minimum you will be up for an adaptor, given you can find one that fits, I cant even find the adaptor Bunnings used to sell.

If you place much value on your time, and want a reasonably priced O2 system, just buy one from a reputable supplier, I doubt you will save much by doing a hell of a lot of running around, and at least you will get a working system with all the right parts, chosen for reliability and value for money when you look at the ongoing costs.
Mark


----------



## manticle

Or put some napisan in a bag........


----------



## gaijin

Tight arse - yep. Value my time - yep. Should've gone down the path that MHB recommended about 400 posts ago - yep.

Will I give up finding something to fit the tradeflame bottle? Not unless I blow my face off, which going from the advice from many on here, and a welding friend, is highly unlikely.

Thanks for the ongoing advice on here MHB and all - it's been much appreciated.


----------



## takai

Ok, cant seem to find it, but who was selling the oxygenation stones with a stick attached? Or should where can i get a new length of 6mm SS tube from? Busted my old one in the move.


----------



## nosco

Grain and Grape have them.


----------



## MHB

There are a couple of other options, I believe craft brewers sell one as does my local Brewman.
Take your pick.
Mark


----------



## technobabble66

In relation to testing O2 levels in the wort, has anyone tried this:
https://www.sera.de/en/product/sera-test-de-oxigeno-o2/

It's an aquarium O2 test kit.
Costs ~$28 from Coburg Aquariums. It measures 2-8ppm as standard, so i'm guessing it'll possibly be indicative across 0-10ppm. No idea what the accuracy is, but i'd again guess ~±1ppm (?).

A flaw with it is the background colour of the wort would obviously affect it, as i believe you add 2 reagents to your sample and compare the colour to a chart. So a stout might be hard to measure!
However, if you used it to dial in your process on a few pale-coloured ales/lagers, it might give you a little more confidence in your method of oxygenation.


----------



## Jack of all biers

In your link the oxygen testing kits come up with an error for the page. Maybe just my software? Every other product displays though.


----------



## technobabble66

Nup. Mine no worky either. 
Try this:
https://www.sera.de/en/product/sera-test-oxygonoy-o2/


----------



## brad81

This has been by far my best friend when it has come to wort aeration:

https://www.bunnings.com.au/trojan-100mm-paint-mixer_p6330564

Bargain

Don't go too nuts with the drill and you wont have to wait for the foam to die down


----------



## manticle

Thread is about adding actual oxygen to wort rather than just how to aerate.

It's well established that no amount of shaking or stirring can add the recommended level of oxygen.


----------



## Jack of all biers

manticle said:


> Thread is about adding actual oxygen to wort rather than just how to aerate.
> 
> It's well established that no amount of shaking or stirring can add the recommended level of oxygen.


Ummmm..... Manticle you've chastised the bloke for posting about an aeration device in the thread titled "Different wort aeration kits". I think you might have thought the post was in the "Get into O2 guys, if your serious about good beer"

EDIT - I see the OP was about O2 kits, but Brad81 probably didn't go back the 24 pages and assumed a meaning in the title.


----------



## peteru

manticle said:


> Thread is about adding actual oxygen to wort rather than just how to aerate.


Agreed.



manticle said:


> It's well established that no amount of shaking or stirring can add the recommended level of oxygen.


I don't think it's that black and white. As a quick rule of thumb, I'd agree with that statement, but in reality things are a bit more complex. When you take into consideration the difference between lager and ale yeast and the solubility of O2 based on wort temperature, you can pull it off. Of course, dissolving pure O2 into the wort at the right time is the optimal solution - if you have the means.


----------



## manticle

Jack of all biers said:


> Ummmm..... Manticle you've chastised the bloke for posting about an aeration device in the thread titled "Different wort aeration kits". I think you might have thought the post was in the "Get into O2 guys, if your serious about good beer"
> 
> EDIT - I see the OP was about O2 kits, but Brad81 probably didn't go back the 24 pages and assumed a meaning in the title.


Pretty minor chastising. More a reminder/suggestion.

@Peter - I've not read a single source that suggests paint stirrers or shaking can reach recommended levels of 10 ppm. 8 if you're lucky.


----------



## MHB

No Manticle is right and it is that black and white, you simply cant get the same concentration by pumping/stirring/shaking a 20% O2 & 80% nitrogen mix into the wort as you will get by using pure O2.

Even with an Airstone, there is also a point where the relatively insoluble N2 starts to push the O2 out of solution. One of the standard ways to de-oxygenate a solution is to purge with N2.
Mark


----------



## brad81

Righto.

/bowingout


----------



## manticle

Don't be afraid.


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## Blind Dog

manticle said:


> Pretty minor chastising. More a reminder/suggestion.
> @Peter - I've not read a single source that suggests paint stirrers or shaking can reach recommended levels of 10 ppm. 8 if you're lucky.


given that some of the best beer I've tasted comes from breweries that use spraying, dumping from great heights or other equivalent methods to aerate wort, with nary a whiff of O2 in pure form, I'd suggest the recommended 10ppm found throughout various literature should be read in the author's context and not as a hard and fast rule that has ubiquitous application.

ive yet to taste a beer brewed with an English yeast strain where introducing O2 to the wort produced a better beer than simply shaking, or some other method that introduced air not pure O2; commercial or otherwise. Hugely subjective, limited sample size etc., but I just don't buy the add pure O2 to every beer mantra. If you want a clean ferment, yes, but some yeast strain only produce their best work when stressed.


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## manticle

This a a fair point and one I'll enjoy testing when I finally own a setup.

It is true that shaking for 2 mins or an hour won't achieve those levels (my main point) - whether those levels result in beer that suits individual preference is less certain.


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## manticle

PS: you liked your own post.


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## MHB

Blind Dog said:


> given that some of the best beer I've tasted comes from breweries that use spraying, dumping from great heights or other equivalent methods to aerate wort, with nary a whiff of O2 in pure form, I'd suggest the recommended 10ppm found throughout various literature should be read in the author's context and not as a hard and fast rule that has ubiquitous application.
> 
> ive yet to taste a beer brewed with an English yeast strain where introducing O2 to the wort produced a better beer than simply shaking, or some other method that introduced air not pure O2; commercial or otherwise. Hugely subjective, limited sample size etc., but I just don't buy the add pure O2 to every beer mantra. If you want a clean ferment, yes, but some yeast strain only produce their best work when stressed.


I'm going to play Devils Advocate (again)
Accepted that some "Old" breweries didn't/don't use pure O2, but any brewery built or upgraded in the last 50 years or so probably will be (see following) but they all take steps to get as much O2 into solution as they can (as close to the ideal as they could) and for very good reasons.
As for the recommended 10ppm being an "authors" creation - Crap - its the result of years of high quality of research into how yeast works and what we want it to do in the brew.

Which raises the question of why we would aerate the wort.
It isn't really about the yeast reproducing (making more yeast), more what yeast is doing while it is reproducing. In a commercial operation (or an advanced home brew situation) it isn't hard to make and pitch enough yeast. But we still want the yeast to reproduce in the wort because it takes out of the wort some constituents that we don't want in the beer. Yeast will only metabolise what it regards as nutrients vital to reproduction until it runs out of any one of a number of them (O2 included).
We boil a wort for a bunch of reasons one of the top 4 being to reduce coagulable protein that can cause trouble later, like wise when yeast is reproducing it absorbs lipids and other fatty acids which if left in the beer would accelerate staling later, proteins/amino acids, trace minerals... there are a bunch of other processes going on that are important.
The nuts of the process being, If you have the right (well optimum) amount of dissolved oxygen, the yeast will metabolise all or most of the problematic wort components at the same time. This gives the best beer possible, that Optimum is going to be around 10ppm, this is well established by decades of research and experimentation.

Now the caveat
That 10ppm isn't a carved in stone, written by the finger of God... absolute. It is however a very close and easily achievable quantity, if you don't have a DO meter and a pretty good lab backing you up 10ppm is a better answer than you will get without a lot of technical support.
There are ways to compensate for less than ideal aeration, very low temperature pitching, or yeasts that like/behave differently mainly by varying the pitch rate, and old breweries that lacked modern aeration often took steps to compensate, like double dropping, systems like the Burton Union, pitching large active starters... in most cases these are steps required to make up for less than ideal aeration.
As for some yeast needing to be stressed, again I disagree strongly, no yeast should ever be stressed. There is a wealth of difference between varying pitch rates, levels of aeration, pitch temperature... and being stressed.
It is well understood that higher pitch rates reduces ester production, reduces the bitterness in extreme cases (over pitching has its own issues).
I cant think of any yeast that doesn't benefit ideal aeration (around 10ppm) in a healthy well made wort. the old saying "_we make wort - yeast makes beer_" Good aeration isn't a magic bullet but is an important part of good brewing.
Mark


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## gaijin

Guys, just to add if you're going with a Cigweld Reg and Coregas O2 bottle, I've had to purchase these other items to screw onto the 3/8' outlet. You can probably get a John Guest connection assuming they're okay with pure O2. They seem to work okay for me.

Plug:
https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product-1600x1600/841dc883-0458-4621-9c43-3b7a70b61502.png

Adaptor 3/8 to 1/4:

https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product-1600x1600/546884b0-bb60-4658-b0c4-3f2e166da1d6.png

Edit - changed from images to links as images were gigantic.


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## Hpal

What are people's thoughts on industrial Oxygen cylinders for brewing? These tradeflame and Bernzomatic bottles are a welding cylinder, so should be ok I'd guess. I have a large oxy bottle at home for welding (BOC), I've thought about connecting a hose and stone to the reg and trying it out...


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## MHB

When I was designing the system now sold by Brewman, I got an analysis certificate from the filler/importer that stated the gas in the Oxyturbo bottles was "Food Grade". I believe it said so on the label - that was a couple of years ago.
I think its a fair question to ask, I suspect that you would have to be very unlucky to have any problems with industrial, that said the three craft breweries nearest me all use medical grade O2 for wort aeration.
Mark


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## Hpal

My thoughts exactly, there are also many in internet land who use industrial oxygen with no problems, I'll give it a crack. Maybe with an inline filter as a backup.


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## Blind Dog

manticle said:


> PS: you liked your own post.


Yep. Fat thumbs on an iPad. I've reported a few of my own posts as well before now


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## Crakkers

Finally pulled the trigger on the Brewman oxygenation kit last week and gave it a run yesterday.
I can't believe how quickly the fermentation got up and running, compared to my previous half-arsed aeration procedure.
Thanks Brewman.....and a couple of hundred billion yeast cells thank you too.


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## Bribie G

And it's quite frightening when an IPA starts clearing from the top on day 3.


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## husky

Any one in Melb getting an industrial bottle filled as opposed to a swap and go scenario? I have a bottle and don't want to be paying rent.


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## Stouter

This might belong in the continuing rant thread, but f$kin my local Bunnings are still arsing about getting the rent free exchange full size bottles set up and selling. I asked about it over four months ago now, and it was in the process. Yesterday, they're still apparently going through the hoops for paperwork on where they'll store safely, other regs, etc.
Never mind that this is a multimillion $business that already has the same thing set up for sale in other places.
We're not needing to reinvent the bloody wheel here guys!!!


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## Coalminer

Wheres 'local'?


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## Stouter

Geraldton, W.A.
BTW I want my share of GST back ya thieving East Coast dogs


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## MHB

Thanks for your kind donations! we will take all the money we can get...
M


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## Stouter

I'm still going on my first little $16 oxy throw away. I'm as generous with it as W.A is with it's GST payouts, couple of million, I mean minutes here and there, take as much as you want yEast sort of style, purge cleaning, etc.
Might have to buy a back up one this week. I just know the next time I go to use it the thing will run out in the first 5seconds. Anyone picking up on the WA bank account analogy?


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## Mr B

Ahh, this reminds me.

Got an $8 flow meter from o/s, and solved the 'where do I put this on a portable setup' dilemma.

Works well


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## Peter80

Hoping to put my new brewman o2 kit to use tomorrow and just wondering how everyone cleans and sanitise the stone/wand?


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## SBOB

Peter80 said:


> Hoping to put my new brewman o2 kit to use tomorrow and just wondering how everyone cleans and sanitise the stone/wand?


spray wand with starsan, dunk stone in starsan when o2 flowing for a few seconds then into wort 

after aerating, leave o2 running slowly and rinse off wand/stone under water then spray stone with starsan and store in ziplock bag


no idea if thats a good method, but its working for me currently


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## Bribie G

Peter80 said:


> Hoping to put my new brewman o2 kit to use tomorrow and just wondering how everyone cleans and sanitise the stone/wand?


I just let it bubble for a few seconds under a stream of hot water from the tap, If there's gas coming out then there's nothing coming in.
If you want to be nazi I suppose you could just let it sit into a container of strong perc for a while, but when I tried that, there was nothing happening, so all good.


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## Lionman

I have used the trade flame cylinder with ebay reg/flow meter on 2 batches now.

Definitely much better/cleaner fermentation. Not crazy fast finishing though.

Fist batch was a 7.5% IPA. It had very vigorous fermentation (lots of turbulence in the fermenter) but still took a good 7 days to hit FG.

I have been boiling the stone and hose for a few mins before use, then sanitising with starsan, then rinsing afterwards and sanitising again. Hopefully this is enough to not introduce any infection.


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## kaiserben

I store my stone, wand and tubing in a spare fermenter filled with no-rinse. 

After using it in wort I dunk it in a sink of tap water before returning it to the no-rinsed-filled fermenter.


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## technobabble66

Lionman said:


> I have used the trade flame cylinder with ebay reg/flow meter on 2 batches now...


Just to be sure I'm looking at the correct one, and that it's *definitely compatible* with the trade flame bottles at bunnings (ie: both thread & depressing the valve/safety pin), could you please post a link to the regulator you bought off eBay?
Cheers!


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## Lionman

technobabble66 said:


> Just to be sure I'm looking at the correct one, and that it's *definitely compatible* with the trade flame bottles at bunnings (ie: both thread & depressing the valve/safety pin), could you please post a link to the regulator you bought off eBay?
> Cheers!


Sure.

I bought this one

It has a flow meter inbuilt but the first marked reading is 1.5L/min so it's not super accurate for oxygenating wort. Works fine though.

I notice the trade flame 02 bottles at Bunnings are slightly different than the ones mentioned early in this thread. They have reduced the capacity of them while maintaining the same price.


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## Curly79

Just used my Brewman kit for the first time. Looks the goods. Cant wait to taste the difference in the final product. Should I be un screwing the cylinder from the regulator for storage or just winding the reg right out?


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## warra48

Definitely unscrew the cylinder from the regulator. It's the only way to be sure your oxygen doesn't slowly leak out.


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## TidalPete

Bribie G said:


> I just let it bubble for a few seconds under a stream of hot water from the tap, If there's gas coming out then there's nothing coming in.
> If you want to be nazi I suppose you could just let it sit into a container of strong perc for a while, but when I tried that, there was nothing happening, so all good.


Pretty much like you Bribie.

Before aeration ---

Boil the kitchen kettle.
Take kettle lid off, insert wand\stone & open O2 valve to clear any blockages
Pour (the still near-boiling) water down the entire wand\stone
Spray your sanitiser over the entire wand\stone & you're done

After aeration ---

Run wand\stone under tap to clean, then insert the wand\stone back into the (still pretty hot) kitchen kettle & open O2 valve to clear any blockages
Dry & store your wand\stone as per usual
Too easy!

Edit --- Agree with warra! Always disconnect your regulator when not in use.


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## Curly79

warra48 said:


> Definitely unscrew the cylinder from the regulator. It's the only way to be sure your oxygen doesn't slowly leak out.


Cheers. I got a bit excited screwing it all together and didn't take any notice of the fitting on the cylinder. Thought it might have been a case of once it's on its on for good. Thanks


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## Crakkers

Oxygenated my second batch with the Brewman setup yesterday.
That's 2 batches at 75 seconds each, just bubbling lightly.......and I've only used 4 grams of O2! Fermenting away beautifully this morning, as was the first batch.
By my calculation, that gives me 68 brews per cylinder - I reckon 1 cylinder will see me out!


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## mofox1

warra48 said:


> Definitely unscrew the cylinder from the regulator. It's the only way to be sure your oxygen doesn't slowly leak out.


D'oh. So that's what happened... I just figured I'd bumped the reg on slightly while moving it around the brewery.

Might give the O2 setup another go then.


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## pirateagenda

how many brews is everyone getting out of the 136g tradeflame cylinders? 

I would have gotten maybe 10 double batches max using the bunnings "regulator" - which is really just a tap. I normally have it on for 60 seconds and it bubbles quite vigourously. Am I over using it, or is $5 a brew for oxygen the norm?


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## wide eyed and legless

That is all I have, I was putting a 5 to 10 second burst into the head space and giving the fermenter a vigorous shake on a sack truck (will be converting an old golfing trolley specifically for the shaking) could get 10 ppm using oxygen and 8 ppm without. Made no difference to fermentation start or time. Dave Miller in his book Home Brewing Guide suggests home brewers to just aerate, and for the 2 ppm or there abouts it isn't worth the cost of oxygen.


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## pirateagenda

wide eyed and legless said:


> That is all I have, I was putting a 5 to 10 second burst into the head space and giving the fermenter a vigorous shake on a sack truck (will be converting an old golfing trolley specifically for the shaking) could get 10 ppm using oxygen and 8 ppm without. Made no difference to fermentation start or time. Dave Miller in his book Home Brewing Guide suggests home brewers to just aerate, and for the 2 ppm or there abouts it isn't worth the cost of oxygen.



yeah i'm thinking i might hook up a sanitised aquarium pump. apparently you can get close to the same with about half hour of running that. 

My beers definitely did improve when I started using oxygen. Although it was at around the same time I started fermenting in stainless and making yeast starters, so it could have been a sum of all 3.


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## MHB

Guys this has been done to death so many times.
You simply cant get "Ideal" levels of Oxygenation any other than with O2 and an airstone.
I seriously doubt that just filling the head space will get what you need. Am absolutely certain that splashing, shaking pumping air through the wort even with an airstone wont do it.
If you are going to aerate invest in the right equipment and do it properly. There is little point in spending some time or money if it isn't going to get you where you want to go - its completely wasted.

Do a bit of research but if you want the opinion of someone who knows and doesn't sell Aeration Equipment try Wyeast for a start.
Worth remembering that both Air and Oxygen are roughly equally soluble in wort, but that Air is only 21% Oxygen (because of the relatively low solubility of N2, the effective O2 concentration just over 30%, so 10ppm of Air is only 3pp of O2).

From the Wyeast Website


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## wide eyed and legless

I know its been done to death, there is a 40 something post about it on this forum somewhere, but I think it is debatable. As I mentioned above Dave Miller advises against oxygenating wort in home brewing as does Jamil Zainasheff I respect and follow a lot of your input, but I have found no difference with aerating and oxygenating the wort. I aerate the wort vigorously and do the same with the yeast on a stir plate and haven't had any problems with the yeast taking off on the other hand I have read on this forum of those pumping the oxygen (probably too much and the yeast stalling).
Here is a link to what Eric Watson has to say.
https://www.beertools.com/html/articles.php?view=251
And another article by Tracy Aquilla another biochemist who is also a home brewer.
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen
Also Sierra Nevada brewery aerate their wort as against the using of oxygen.
I am not trying to put anyone off from using oxygen, just think the money would be better spent elsewhere.


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## pirateagenda

MHB said:


> Guys this has been done to death so many times.
> You simply cant get "Ideal" levels of Oxygenation any other than with O2 and an airstone.
> I seriously doubt that just filling the head space will get what you need. Am absolutely certain that splashing, shaking pumping air through the wort even with an airstone wont do it.
> If you are going to aerate invest in the right equipment and do it properly. There is little point in spending some time or money if it isn't going to get you where you want to go - its completely wasted.
> 
> Do a bit of research but if you want the opinion of someone who knows and doesn't sell Aeration Equipment try Wyeast for a start.
> Worth remembering that both Air and Oxygen are roughly equally soluble in wort, but that Air is only 21% Oxygen (because of the relatively low solubility of N2, the effective O2 concentration just over 30%, so 10ppm of Air is only 3pp of O2).
> 
> From the Wyeast Website
> View attachment 112360



How much DO are you actually shooting for? I have read that 5PPM minimum and 8-10PPM is ideal, so based off that chart above isn't the shake method sufficient (not absolute best I agree)? 

I brewed a batch on Sunday and had run out of oxygen so I employed a different method (a variation of the viability starter method from one of WEAL's links above):
- built a large enough starter in advance and chilled
- on brew day decanted, brought to room temp and pitched to another small starter
- put on the stir plate for 4 hours before pitching time. By this time it was well active
- Gave the fermenters a good shake (about 1-2 mins each)
- Pitched the active starters to the wort

This took off almost instantly, and I had pressure building in the pressure fermenter within 3 or 4 hours. It's now day 3 and it's still fermenting very actively. 

Anecdotal evidence I know, but i've never had an oxygenated and decanted starter take off this fast.


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## Schikitar

Has there been any further discussion of using a pin prick of olive oil as a substitute for aeration? Any more science-literate guys out there able to cast any light/shade on that method?

I don't brew enough to warrant buying an O2 kit, the last few brews have done just fine without (but I've been using yeast nutrient and healthy starters to somewhat compensate)..


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## wide eyed and legless

Some more info here, but if you are doing fine why bother.I did read that the New Belgium who was quoted gave it away through stalling yeast and off flavours.
https://yeastbuddy.wordpress.com/2012/07/26/olive-oil-vs-aeration-experiement/


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## PrizeFightinYeti

Where has jamil z advocated against oxygenating wort? I've listened to a the brew strong podcasts about it, and he certainly didn't discourage using it. 

The most efficient way is the bunnings trade and go oxygen tanks. You get 2.1 m3 of oxygen. You only need 1 minute of oxygen at 1l per minute. $69 and a refundable $200 deposit. 

It will last 2100 brews 23l brews.

For $69 you could do a brew every two weeks for the rest of your life and you wouldn't run out. 3 cents a brew


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## MHB

The Bunnings bottle is clearly a very reasonable option, but I think you should give a full costing: -
Deposit $200, Gas $69 A decent O2 Regulator call it $50+, Airstone, Line and Clips say $20, maybe a stainless wand, a bit of petrol money...
Call it $350 give or take, up front. Not unreasonable really and a good option for some people, certainly for anyone that has other uses for O2 and has an accessible Bunnings.
Its a relatively a big bulky system which may or may not matter but the compact systems based on disposable gas bottles have some advantages to. Like a lower up front cost and better portability and stashability.

Up to us all to decide which is going to be the system that fits our personal needs best, not a Right/Wrong type of thing, just a personal choice.
Mark


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## JDW81

PrizeFightinYeti said:


> Where has jamil z advocated against oxygenating wort? I've listened to a the brew strong podcasts about it, and he certainly didn't discourage using it.



I'd be interested to hear if JZ has changed his tune on O2 as well. I've listened to pretty much all of the brewstrong podcasts, and as far as I can remember he's always been an advocate. He may have released something recently which I have missed, but it would be a big about face for him, given the importance he placed on it in many of his podcasts.

Is it possible he was referring to avoiding O2 in sour beers/wild ferments?

JD


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## nosco

From memory he has said that it may not be necessary to use an air stone, or at least it wont be much different without one, and that yeast or the wort can get O2 from the surface of the wort. Dont quote me here 

Sent from my VTR-L09 using Aussie Home Brewer mobile app


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## wide eyed and legless

JZ's advice also takes in the gravity of the wort, not necessary on wort below 1.060 or there abouts but advises to oxygenate the wort if it is in the high gravity. I believe it has something to do with how long the oxygen will stay dissolved in the higher gravity wort.
For the more academically inclined there is lots of reading matter in the Wiley on line library.


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