# Bi-carb Soda - Aka Sodium Bicarbonate



## antains (5/1/08)

I spoke with the dude at my local HBS. 

I was in search of Iodophor, but he confessed he didn't often stock it and wanted to.

He suggested using sodium bicarbonate, when I told him I was through with bleach.

His argument was that sodium bicarbonate's active cleanser was oxygen. So, where bleach would leave chlorine behind in my gear, sodium bicarbonate, aka bi-carb soda, leaves behind oxygen. Consequently, oxygen when mixed in with the brew would not have a bad effect.

I was unable to find any reference here, but what do you folks, think?

Only one way to find out, I guess... <_<


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## PostModern (5/1/08)

He might have been thinking of sodium *per*carbonate, the active ingredient in Nappisan. Lots of us use it as a cleaner.


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## enoch (5/1/08)

Carb soda wont do much for your cleaning.
He may have meant sodium percarbonate [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate[url/]which I think is the active ingredient in napisan. 

"*Sodium percarbonate* is a white crystalline water-soluble chemical compound://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium...emical compound of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide. It is an oxidizing agent and ingredient in a number of home and laundry cleaning products. Despite the name it is in fact a carbonate perhydrate. "

Edit: too slow!


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## dig (5/1/08)

Keep the bicarb soda though. Along with buttermilk and baking powder, it's the key to a good pancake.


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## NRB (5/1/08)

If leaving behind oxygen, perhaps he was thinking Hydrogen Peroxide?

He may've meant sodium percarbonate, but that would need a good rinse after use. I use it as a cleaner, not a sanitiser. G&G have iodophor, give them a call. No affiliation etc...


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## goatherder (5/1/08)

And it's also handy for getting your mash pH right when making a stout.


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## antains (5/1/08)

PostModern said:


> He might have been thinking of sodium *per*carbonate, the active ingredient in Nappisan. Lots of us use it as a cleaner.



Y'know, it makes sense that I misheard him. I try to argue that everyone mumbles, but it's more likely that I'm deaf.

Edit: also, too slow. serving a customer.

Edit again: Thanks for all the feedback. Bi-carb is being kept for a couple of loaves of bread and as an air purifier, too, so it won't go to waste.  
I'll try again with sodium percarbonate.
Thanks very much, folks.


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## pint of lager (5/1/08)

Bi-carb or sodium bicarbonate is a great chemical to have around the home. The packet usually has a wide range of uses written on the side including stain remover, deodorizer for carpets and pets, battery terminals and cooking.

Not a huge amount of it used in brewing.

Sodium percarbonate which is the active ingredient in napisan is usually used as a cleaner. Buy the unscented homebrand versions. Lots of people use it as a cleaner. It does need a very good rinse at concentrations needed for cleaning.

Sometimes sodium percarbonate (pure form without fillers as found in off the shelf products) is used as a no rinse sanitiser but most brewers would say there are better products to use for no rinse sanitisers.


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## antains (5/1/08)

pint of lager said:


> Sometimes sodium percarbonate (pure form without fillers as found in off the shelf products) is used as a no rinse sanitiser but most brewers would say there are better products to use for no rinse sanitisers.



Cheers, PoL. I'll definitely give it a berl.

Ant.


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## blackbock (6/1/08)

Sodium bicarbonate (a.k.a baking soda) can be used as a _cleaning_ agent , but only as a sort of abrasive powder which helps remove cooked on stains. Mix a small amount with water to make a slurry and use some elbow grease. It works amazingly well, but then probably pure sand would do the same thing...

It can also remove odours from plasticware.

Of course everyone's comments above also still apply about it not being a replacement for bleach or sodium *percarbonate*.


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## Adamt (6/1/08)

NRB said:


> If leaving behind oxygen, perhaps he was thinking Hydrogen Peroxide?
> 
> He may've meant sodium percarbonate, but that would need a good rinse after use. I use it as a cleaner, not a sanitiser. G&G have iodophor, give them a call. No affiliation etc...




Sodium percarbonate is a effectively hydrogen peroxide fused with sodium carbonate (not bicarbonate), they separate on solution and the peroxide does its stuff.


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## antains (7/1/08)

Adamt said:


> Sodium percarbonate is a effectively hydrogen peroxide fused with sodium carbonate (not bicarbonate), they separate on solution and the peroxide does its stuff.



I spoke with SWMBO about it all. When hydrogen peroxide came up, she had that pale look of dread that she got when I speckled the last towel with bleach :huh:  .

As a teenager in the early '90s, I was one of the many thousands who put a bit of peroxide in the 'fro.

No one here seems to have mentioned that as a negative aspect of hydrogen peroxide. Am I the victim of a myth?

Then I was told about Milton tables, which are used for sterilising baby bottles, etc. It contains sodium dichloroisocyonurate. Yep. That ol' chest nut. Basically, it looks like the active ingredient is chlorine.
Has anyone here used it?

I'm being a complete noob, I know.


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## Lazy Brewer (2/2/08)

More of a related query than a comment on what's gone before.
For years, apart from a brief dalliance with some swimming pool chlorine (it worked), the only sterilising agent I've used is Sodium Metabisulphate. It's always worked and I was of the opinion that, despite the intense head clearing capacity of the fumes, it broke down fairly rapidly on prolonged contact with the air and was reasonably environmentally safe when tipped out after use. There was no requirement to rinse the fermenter before starting a brew or the bottles before bottling. My wife also discovered that it was the perfect option for sterilising fruit (apricots, peaches, etc.) prior to drying it and it had the added benefite of retaining the fruit's natural colour.
Recently, having moved to a remote coastal hamlet, all I've been able to source is a compound called Sodium Percarbonate. This stuff seems to stay "active" for days, maybe forever, must be rinsed out, is useless for the fruit sterilising and I'm unsure about it's potential environmental impact given that the tomato plant I "watered" with it has turned up it's toes within 3 - 4 days. Does anyone have information about this stuff that would address my concerns?


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## sah (2/2/08)

Hi Lazy Brewer,

Sodium percarbonate is not a sanitiser. It is an awesome cleaning (oxidising) agent though. I use it to clean all my brewing kit. A solution of this stuff in a fermenter for 24 hours will have it spotless. No need to use a cloth to remove the protein ring. Depending on the concentration it will stay active for a little while but not too long. It's also known as sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate and sodium carbonate peroxide. Use google with these names and you'll find lots of info. It's MSDS can be found here. I tip it on the lawn when I'm done. It doesn't kill it, nor does it seem to kill the worms. Don't do this with an acid sanitiser like Five Star though.

By the way sodium metabisulphate is not technically a sanitiser either. It is effective at preventing bacterial growth but it won't kill existing bacteria. It is also a very effective anti-oxidant. 

You can mail order a good sanitiser from one of the site sponsors (above). If you use iodophor or five star with a atomiser spray bottle it will last you forever.

regards,
Scott


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## BungalowBill (26/9/08)

I am totally confused, I have read several comments that sodium percarbonate is not a sanitiser but clearly on the Coopers bottle it says sanitiser, I also have sodium metabisulphate and Neo Pink, yet in the Coopers brewing manual that came with the kit they say to use 1/2 cup of unscented bleach.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose, I would like to hear of any more comments on he matter.


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## Screwtop (26/9/08)

BungalowBill said:


> I am totally confused, I have read several comments that sodium percarbonate is not a sanitiser but clearly on the Coopers bottle it says sanitiser, I also have sodium metabisulphate and Neo Pink, yet in the Coopers brewing manual that came with the kit they say to use 1/2 cup of unscented bleach.
> Different strokes for different folks I suppose, I would like to hear of any more comments on he matter.




You - you - you mean they lied - to - to - to a consumer :huh:


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## Bribie G (26/9/08)

I ferment in 30L plastic screw top fermenters, secondary in a 25L screw top fermenter and bottle in 2L PETs and only use ALDI 'Tandil' dishwashing concentrate when washing out the fermenters, then Woolies plain bleach. I rinse out the PETs thoroughly as soon as the beer is poured, then bleach them for about twenty minutes before bottling. 

Beer production to date = 576 L
Cost of bleach = $3.60
Infected bottles = zip

RestMyCase


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## hongyechem (20/10/10)

PostModern said:


> He might have been thinking of sodium *per*carbonate, the active ingredient in Nappisan. Lots of us use it as a cleaner.





Hi , if you know more about it or you are selling it , pleae contact me :[email protected] 

I need it urgently ,thanks


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## hongyechem (20/10/10)

BungalowBill said:


> I am totally confused, I have read several comments that sodium percarbonate is not a sanitiser but clearly on the Coopers bottle it says sanitiser, I also have sodium metabisulphate and Neo Pink, yet in the Coopers brewing manual that came with the kit they say to use 1/2 cup of unscented bleach.
> Different strokes for different folks I suppose, I would like to hear of any more comments on he matter.




HI , if you know about it , please e-mail to me or tell where can I buy it , thanks ! Need it urgently


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## Banshee (20/10/10)

SAH said:


> Hi Lazy Brewer,
> 
> Sodium percarbonate is not a sanitiser. It is an awesome cleaning (oxidising) agent though. I use it to clean all my brewing kit. A solution of this stuff in a fermenter for 24 hours will have it spotless. No need to use a cloth to remove the protein ring. Depending on the concentration it will stay active for a little while but not too long. It's also known as sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate and sodium carbonate peroxide. Use google with these names and you'll find lots of info. It's MSDS can be found here. I tip it on the lawn when I'm done. It doesn't kill it, nor does it seem to kill the worms. Don't do this with an acid sanitiser like Five Star though.
> 
> ...


 
Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is an oxidizer commonly used as a bleach. It is a pale blue liquid, slightly more viscous than water, that appears colorless in dilute solution. It is used as a disinfectant, antiseptic, oxidizer, and in rocketry as a propellant.[2] The oxidizing capacity of hydrogen peroxide is so strong that it is considered a highly reactive oxygen species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide

Sodium percarbonate is a white crystalline water-soluble adduct of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide, with formula Na2CO31.5H2O2.[1] Despite the name, it is, in fact, a carbonate perhydrate.[1]; it should not be confused with sodium peroxocarbonate Na2CO4 or peroxodicarbonate Na2C2O6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate

So it is a sanitiser but needs to be rinsed thoroughly if I my understanding is right.


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## sah (20/10/10)

nice contribution Banshee!

Why do you suggest it needs to be rinsed thoroughly?


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## sama (20/10/10)

As many have said the napisan type cleaners are good and easily obtainable,and the cheaper versions ive found contain no chlorine or added scents.


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## Banshee (20/10/10)

SAH said:


> nice contribution Banshee!
> 
> Why do you suggest it needs to be rinsed thoroughly?



It is an oxidiser. Do you want to oxidise your beer?


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## sah (20/10/10)

Banshee said:


> It is an oxidiser. Do you want to oxidise your beer?


That goes to how long, quantities and conditions that the chemical remains active.

The way I use it is flood & soak, leaving all surfaces in contact with solution for an extended period (>24hrs). Once drained and dried (somewhat) would there be a significant enough residue to cause further oxidation? I suspect not.

On the other hand, a little additional O2 in the fermenter will be of benefit.


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## rotten (20/10/10)

I have used unscented Vanish, Napisan, for last 6 months, before that coopers sanitiser (both sodium percarbonate) I always rinse after, it would leave some residue behind. My water supply is clean and I haven't had an infection in 130+ brews, other than an out of date tin of goop in Kit days.


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## Banshee (20/10/10)

SAH said:


> That goes to how long, quantities and conditions that the chemical remains active.
> 
> The way I use it is flood & soak, leaving all surfaces in contact with solution for an extended period (>24hrs). Once drained and dried (somewhat) would there be a significant enough residue to cause further oxidation? I suspect not.
> 
> On the other hand, a little additional O2 in the fermenter will be of benefit.



Does your beer taste like you would expect after soaking and draining? I am not a chemist so I can not give an educated answer.


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## sah (20/10/10)

I only use sodium percarbonate as a cleaner. I haven't changed anything since my first post in this thread.


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## Banshee (21/10/10)

SAH said:


> I only use sodium percarbonate as a cleaner. I haven't changed anything since my first post in this thread.



Do you use 100% sodium percarbonate? If not then I would definetly recommend rinsing.


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## sah (21/10/10)

Banshee said:


> Do you use 100% sodium percarbonate? If not then I would definetly recommend rinsing.



Yes I do. It's far cheaper and you use less off it (no filler).


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## JestersDarts (21/10/10)

sara said:


> PostModern said:
> 
> 
> > He might have been thinking of sodium percarbonate, the active ingredient in Nappisan. Lots of us use it as a cleaner.
> ...



Quick! Someone help Sara get some sodium percarbonate- she's just shat herself


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## Banshee (21/10/10)

If you look at the web site it says that PBW use SP. So I guess PBW is SP based.

http://brewiki.org/CleaningAndSanitation


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## MHB (21/10/10)

The jar (PBW) says Sodium Metasillicate which is just a cleaner, Sodium Percarbonate is a very different chemical, I'll leave the discussion as to its effectiveness as a sanitiser alone thanks.
Both are effective cleaners, personally I favour the percarbonate and find it very effective for general cleaning, even use it in the glass washer and the glasses come out sparkling.

MHB


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## Fents (22/10/10)

hahaha what a funny old thread! i know it was 2 years ago since the OP but just to clear it up it would of been Dave @ Greensborough HBS, he would never recommend sodium bicarb it would of been sodium percarb for sure, he sells it in 500G and 1KG bags and its shit hot for cleaning stuff (not sanitising)


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