# 10 minute IPAs are good for school night brewing



## GrumpyPaul

Last night I did a 10minute IPA.

With a 60 minute mash and 10 minute Boil it was the quickest all grain brew I have done

Switched the urn on at 7.45pm

Cleaned up and packed away at 11.15pm.


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## drew9242

Ummm arent you worried with only doing a 10min boil?


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## Mickcr250

I always assumed you should do the 60 min boil regardless of the hop additions


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## keifer33

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but 10min IPAs still require a full 60 min boil just you only add hops at 10 minutes.

The boil time is still needed to boil off the unwanted things which unfortunately 10 mins just wouldn't have achieved.


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## PeteQ

I would imagine you would have a whole batch of DMS.

I hope it turns out for you...


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## mxd

yep, the 10 min means only hops at 10 but still a 60 min + boil


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## Fents

surely this is in jest...


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## pimpsqueak

Surely if you wanted a good school night brew, you'd shoot for a Berliner Weisse?


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## slash22000

RIP IPA.


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## micblair

View attachment Book2.pdf
If this was no chill, then he still would have got a reasonable amount of utilisation (probably out of style for an IPA); adequate pasteurisation, the beer might not clear/have a serious chill-haze issue (unless fined with polyclar, brewbrite or other heavy duty fining agent). It will have a DMS issue, but hopefully some of that will be blown off with a vigorous fermentation. Cant recall if yeast metabolise DMS to DMSO which wont impact the flavour/aroma as much. Anyway I've drawn up a table in excel for the half life of DMS as a function of boil time so you can extrapolate how much might be left.


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## timmi9191

GrumpyPaul said:


> Last night I did a 10minute IPA.
> 
> With a 60 minute mash and 10 minute Boil it was the quickest all grain brew I have done
> 
> Switched the urn on at 7.45pm
> 
> Cleaned up and packed away at 11.15pm.


4 hrs total time... 60 mins mash..

me's thinking he did a 60min boil with a 10min addition..

but..


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## DJ_L3ThAL

well if he didn't, he's going to be *EVEN *grumpier.


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## JasonP

micblair said:


> Book2.pdfIf this was no chill, then he still would have got a reasonable amount of utilisation (probably out of style for an IPA); adequate pasteurisation, the beer might not clear/have a serious chill-haze issue (unless fined with polyclar, brewbrite or other heavy duty fining agent). It will have a DMS issue, but hopefully some of that will be blown off with a vigorous fermentation. Cant recall if yeast metabolise DMS to DMSO which wont impact the flavour/aroma as much. Anyway I've drawn up a table in excel for the half life of DMS as a function of boil time so you can extrapolate how much might be left.


other way around - DMSO broken down by yeast to DMS


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## GrumpyPaul

All I can say is FARRRK.......

I really should research these things better.

No its not No-chill - in fact my counterflow chiller works well dropping the temp to low 20s by the time the urn has drained

Boil was a bit longer than just the 10mins by allowing it to get up to a good rollng boil before the hops went in - so maybe 20 - 30 maximum.

But still too short by the sound of it.

The yeast is pitched so its too late to reboil it tonight....

I guess this ones gets chalked up as a learning experience.......

Probably destined for the drain - but will wait and see how it ferments out.

Feeling just a tad stupid right now.


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## treefiddy

I guess this ones gets chalked up as a learning experience.......

Probably destined for the drain - but will wait and see how it ferments out.

Feeling just a tad stupid right now. 


What was the grain bill?

I think with an attitude like that you may be pleasantly surprised by the outcome.


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## mxd

If you're not making mistakes, then you're not doing anything


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## Charst

To counter some points above on speaking to a Pro Brewer and occasional poster on this site I was surprised to hear him say that when using a highly modified malts a short boil is enough and that LCPA (not brewed by him) was in fact about a 20 minute boil. Could be hogwash but he does't seem like the bloke to talk crap.

Just wait and see how the beer comes out Paul.


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## angus_grant

Hmm, I shall be watching with interest. Would be nice to nail out a quick brew during the week. I suppose IPA would be a style that you might be able to hide problems with a big ferment hop or keg hop to drown out those nasty DMS's.


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## GrumpyPaul

18ltre batch

3.2 kg Ale Malt
1kg Wheat Malt
300g Torrefed Wheat
100g Munich 1
100g Choc Malt

86g of CTZ (13.1%AA)

So before I make anymore stupid mistakes - what do you think about dry hopping this one. Would a boost of flavour from dry hopping hide/mask problems caused bythe DMS?


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## mxd

try it in about a week, if it seems ok throw a handful in, if it's seems crap, throw 3 handfuls in a do a case swap


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## Impy

PeteQ said:


> I would imagine you would have a whole batch of DMS.
> 
> I hope it turns out for you...


Actually he should be fine. So long as the beer didn't have heaps of very light grain (pilsner etc) then DMS isn't really an issue for modern brewers. Modern malting techniques mean that the grains are very highly modified and have very little DMS precursors. Being an IPA.. I doubt anyone would be able to perceive any DMS even if it was a problem.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/


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## thrillho

Could it be then, that 60 minute boils (for non Pilsner malts) are measured by the fact that most beers 'require' a bittering addition around 60 minutes?

Highly interested to know if I could get away with a 30 minute boil with just the one or two additions if I am rushed for time (happy to wait the 60 mins if I have the whole day), especially if malts these days are low in DMS risks (as per above...)


Keep us informed as to how this one ends up!


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## Bribie G

I often notice a very strong break at around 20 minutes and often wondered what the beer would turn out like if I let that break settle and just no chill and ferment the wort.
Obviously doing a 60 min bittering addition precluded me from doing that, but in the case of the "10 minute" hop idea...

I can feel a Bribie G experiment coming on, as well as a shytload of American Hops that need to be used up. :super:


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## Yob

About a year or so back, my gas bottle ran out, bbq bottle lasted mere seconds.. Had been boiling for 20mins max.. Dumped in a few handfuls of cascade and Simcoe from memory... It got drunk and I can't remember it having any off flavours..

My bet is it'll be OK.. No doubt I'll get to taste some.


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## Lodan

K&K could be done in less time h34r:


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## treefiddy

Lodan said:


> K&K could be done in less time h34r:


Yes.


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## Yob

But would you?


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## Not For Horses

Impy said:


> Actually he should be fine. So long as the beer didn't have heaps of very light grain (pilsner etc) then DMS isn't really an issue for modern brewers. Modern malting techniques mean that the grains are very highly modified and have very little DMS precursors. Being an IPA.. I doubt anyone would be able to perceive any DMS even if it was a problem.http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/


That's a good point but it's not necessarily the whole story. I was just yesterday reading an article about dms and it's precursors in the JOI. While brad addresses smm in that link,it's not the only precursor to dms. Further to that, while lightly kilned malt does contain more precursor it isn't necessarily converted to dms. Ale malt, due largely to the higher kilning temp, actually contains more dms but less precursor. It normally disappears in the boil though. Now to drag back to topic...


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## fcmcg

I can say that I have also been told that little creatures is 20 min boil ..yep
And a bloke I know who has gone commercial with a beer that scored highly in a crafty pint blind taste test only does a 20 min boil...yep
Another bloke who has brewed for alot of commercial brewers also does a 20 min boil for some of his brews..yep
Would I do it ? I don't have the canasta's to be honest lol 
I wouldn't be worried , really..unless of course I was it was a pils..which it isn't ..
Taste and report back !


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## Dave70

What dose science say? 

Surely there's a PHD or someone from The Ponds Institute round the joint.

Could start a revolution.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

...sorry, I had to.


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## Yob

Dave70 said:


> What dose science say?
> 
> Surely there's a PHD or someone from The Ponds Institute round the joint.
> 
> Could start a revolution.


Bollox to that.. Id get less time standing round the kettle with drink in hand :lol:


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## bum

It's not just about sanitising the wort or knocking DMS/SSM out. There's also a bunch of proteins that taste like crap or reduce beer stability that need to see the boil longer than 10 minutes in order to drop out.

That's in general. I think OP's beer will probably not be destined for the lawn, all things being equal.


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## Dave70

Yob said:


> Bollox to that.. Id get less time standing round the kettle with drink in hand :lol:


It's a valid point.

Henceforth there shall no further mention of wicked science and we shall have faith that the boil shall be a minimum of 60 minutes.


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## pcmfisher

Could be onto something here.
Remember the time when no chill and biab were impossible?


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## Bribie G

And HERMS was still only a wild Frankenstein idea.


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## Yob

^^^ still is judging from mine (and others) ghetto systems


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## GrumpyPaul

Ok so getting back OT..

At what stage of the fermentation will i taste this corn tasting dms?

4 days in and samples taste ok. Nothing corn like yet?

Aside from corn is there anything else i should be looking out for?


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## slcmorro

It might not even have a noticeable DMS flavour mate.


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## verysupple

bum said:


> <snip> I think OP's beer will probably not be destined for the lawn, all things being equal.


Yep, I doubt the beer will be as good as it could have been, but for me it'd have to be properly nasty to actually throw out a whole batch. And I agree with bum, it's probably not going to be that nasty. May even be OK. As others have said, keep us posted when it's tasting time  .


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## verysupple

GrumpyPaul said:


> At what stage of the fermentation will i taste this corn tasting dms?


I don't think the conversion from SMM to DMS is a process mediated by the yeast (I might be wrong but can't remember reading anything to that effect), so if it's going to be a problem you should probably know already. Although once you carbonate it everything seems to become easier to smell as the escaping CO2 takes compounds with it. 

I'm unaware of a "force DMS test" as such, but maybe someone else knows of such a thing. 

For the obligatory anecdote: A lot of people say you need to do a 90 min boil if you use a lot of pils malt because it has more SMM. But my first time using it I didn't know that and did the regular 60 min and couldn't detect and DMS in the final product. So while such advice is good advice for the "average" situation (because they're usually based on science), these things aren't hard and fast rules for every situation. I wouldn't be too concerned. And if it does have lots of corn or vegetative character, just tell people it's a "spice, herb or vegetable beer" (BJCP 21A)  .


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## O'Henry

I've done 30 min boils on similar grain bills on small and large scales. No dms. I have done a short boil on a beer with Weyerman pils as 30-40% of the grist, no dms problems. I guess every system is different. 

I find dms easy to taste/smell in high levels in the wort, and it is easier to pick up as the beer ferments. That said, it is not something I aim for in a beer so have usually only smell it when boiling up laygahs.


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## DJR

It's ale base malt not pils so will probably be OK. Didn't know that some commercials do quick boils... interesting, I have a sack of Briess ale malt I could try out a short boil with


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## GrumpyPaul

Well here it is. 

No sign of corn flavour so i assume i was extremely lucky to avoid the dms.

It could have done with more hopping. Its pretty tame for what was supposed to be an ipa.


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## verysupple

Awesome, I'm glad it worked out


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## GrumpyPaul

Ok. More of an update on how this turned out...

Just got my kegs back from my sons bucks weekend and the keg of this one was drunk dry.

So it must have been ok to all the boys there.

I am no beer judge and i reckon my palate is not the most educated....but it was a pretty nice beer to me. It may not win any comps, but i liked it.

Would i do a 10 minute boil again? probably not...because i figure its a mistake i learned from this time and just happened to be lucky enough that it turned out ok.


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## slcmorro

Live and learn. That's one thing I've gleaned from this whole home brew business.


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## Bribie G

I was going to do a double batch yorkie today but got sidetracked and too late.

So I put on my lab coat and did an experimental brew, dead simple:

5000 Bairds Pearl Pale Ale
200 TF dark crystal

68.5 degree mash 60 mins

25g Challenger 30 mins
40g EKG 15 mins
20g Fuggles NZ flowers 15 mins

30 minute boil.

I got a reasonable break at 30 minutes, but a really typical "breadcrumb soup" break when I chucked in the BrewBright.

Settling out now in the urn to be cubed. I like rich malty UK ESBs with hop notes, so won't mind if it doesn't turn out as bitter as the 60 min boil.

Time will tell.


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## Bribie G

​​30 minute ESB

I've just kegged this, it's been cold conditioning for about 10 days and I'm drinking a few left over. This is a very nice, clean and fresh beer. It's just come off 4 degrees and has little or no chill haze, that I was concerned about. No DMS and a nice fresh hoppiness, maybe from the shorter boil?

Well guess what... I'll be doing this from now on.


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## angus_grant

oh man, this topic is getting me excited about mid-week brewing. I don't think I could manage a full mash and boil with the little fella and a pregnant wife and still be in bed at a reasonable hour.

But if I can nail out a 60 minute mash and a 30 minute boil, it is very achievable for a week night. Which is good for everyone cause it frees up the weekend instead of taking an entire morning.

I can put strike water in pot in the morning, set my software to start ramping to strike temp at 5:30, arrive home at 6 and dump grain in. Mash for the 60 minutes by which time little fella is in bed and dinner finished. Mash out and ramp to boiling temps. 30 minute boil for bitters and IPAs and a no-chill for the mid-week win.


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## Bribie G

You could get the Mrs to put your dinner in a big snaplock bag and pop that into the pot for when you get home. Works on Masterchef h34r:


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## GrumpyPaul

Somehow i feel vindicatedh


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## nu_brew

Vindicated is way better than being called a retard.


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## sponge

30min mash and boil would make for a nice, easy mild and short brew day.

I'm thinking I may have to have a play with this in the future also.

MO/styrians SMaSH with the 30min boil & mash regime. Can't get much simpler than that!


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## Bribie G

As posted in the What's in the Glass thread, my 30 min ESB has turned out one of the best bitters I've ever done, I'm itching to put a version into next years comps.




I don't know whether I'd want to reduce the boil time at all, very happy with the 30 minute concept.

A few aspects really stand out for me: the freshness and liveliness of the flavour is something I seem to remember from many premium ales in the UK like Greene King Abbot Ale and that were missing from my regular ales. Also it's cleared out very nicely; I'd been worried that a shorter boil might not fix the proteins, but this doesn't seem to have happened.

It's also persuaded me to get back to basics with my UK ales namely:

Keep the grain bill simple, as most UK breweries do. Forget the faffy little addtions such as wheat malt, Munich, da sugaz, etc. Base plus some xtal from now on.
Keep the hop bill authentic, two or at the most three of the well established hops.

This has been a good exercise to get things back on track. Going to do one today. :super:

Edit: another thing that does occur to me, traditional UK ales boiled in the copper are boiled by contact with the surface of the copper, obviously, but they aren't boiled with an electric element. I have a sneaky suspicion that prolonged boiling with a concentrated heat source such as an element could introduce some muddy flavours into the wort. I know that's a bit of a strange statement as I've been an advocate of the exposed element urns, it will be interesting to see if the "freshness" repeats in the next few brews. Hopefully it wasn't a one off. I usually boiled for 60 to 90 minutes.


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## NewtownClown

The only problem I would expect is a shorter shelf life, but perhaps not. In a pale ale, that should be enjoyed fresh, it's no issue, anyway.

Interested in Bribie's thoughts on the exposed element... I am tempted to split a batch and boil one on an element and the other on gas.

Depending on the grain bill and infusion temp., short mash times can also be utilised to shorten the brewday - iodine starch tests have shown full conversion at the 30 min mark.

I can feel a Mild coming on...


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## Not For Horses

I'm keen to see how these shorter boils pan out. I've been moving a lot of my hops forward lately to the point where there are almost none at 60. I feel this would be good with galaxy in particular which has no business being at 60 IMO.
Keep us posted bribie and others who try this.


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## 1974Alby

So what about combining this with a shorter mash? My basic understanding is that most of the mash conversion takes place in the first 20 minutes, so why not a 30 minute mash followed by 30 minute boil?? Not ideal but for time poor people like me, the sacrifice in quality might be worth the time saving...or at least mean we get to brew occassionally!

One thing that hasnt been mentioned that concerns me is the role of boiling in concentrating the wort from a pre-boil to post boil gravity. In my BIAB system my wort is reduced from about 33L pre-boil to around 22 L post-boil...If I only did a 30 mniute boil surely I would end up with a higher volume of lower gravity beer...perhaps i could compensate by just adding more grain ??


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## sponge

Brewing software can calculate the grain and water volumes required to reach your intended OG and volume with a 30min boil.

I mentioned trying a mild SMASH with a 30min boil & mash a few posts back. Seems like an extremely easy brew day.. I usually do a shorter mash for milds anyways so being able to combine that with a short boil would be quite nice. Looks like Bribie has already had some success with a short boil so am real keen to give this a go.


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## Bribie G

For a 23L batch I used my regular amount of grain for the BrewMate recipe. However I cut back a couple of litres on the strike liquor and that seemed to get me to where I normally sit with a 60 min boil.


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## sponge

I'll be giving the 30min boil and mash smash a go this evening.. I've got my HLT on a timer so should be good to go once I get home from work at 5. Hoping to be all cubed and cleaned by around 7..

I'll get it fermenting with some 1469 slurry next weekend once I keg my current brew.


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## Donske

sponge said:


> I'll be giving the 30min boil and mash smash a go this evening.. I've got my HLT on a timer so should be good to go once I get home from work at 5. Hoping to be all cubed and cleaned by around 7..
> 
> I'll get it fermenting with some 1469 slurry next weekend once I keg my current brew.



I'm thinking about giving this a go myself, I'm down to my last cube of wort for my current run of 1469 and have been really enjoying milds with the weather we've had up here recently, I'm thinking I could easily pump out 3 or 4 cubes in a day and keep my current run of 1469 ticking over for a month or so with just a days brewing.


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## sponge

I managed to brew the 30min smash last night as I've posted in the WAYB III thread. Mashed in at 6pm, cubed by 8pm. Now to wait and see how it turns out. 

I'll start fermenting it next weekend.


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## doon

Just did a 30 min boil english something or other. Nice and quick brew day

Mash was 52 -10 68-45 78-15. Chucked 25g of fuggle fwh and 25 into cube will report back once fermented


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## Curry

So I've started experimenting with 30min boils, but making sure I have vigorous rolling boil for those 30 minutes. I have also started hopping in the whirpool for 20 minutes, so I guess I am about 60 minutes anyway. 

Anyway the end results are no DMS and a beer that tastes and smells awesomely hoppy


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## Bribie G

I've just kegged off #2, double batch: 2 kegs and a bit left over for quaffing out of primary.





Tastes clean, hoppy, no chill haze ( this is out of primary at zero degrees after CC so I'd guess any slight haze is still yeast).


I'm in .


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## Bribie G

One thing I've found with my two 30 minute boilers so far is the massive Pavlova Heads I'm getting with the UK style all malt versions.

Anyone else getting this? Maybe the short boil isn't zapping certain proteins? It's very frustrating pouring the first pint of the day and having to wait so long. First World Problem. :lol:


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## jyo

Bribie, are you noticing less maltiness than in your usual beers due to less melanoidins being formed with an extended boil?

I am going to give this a go


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## Bribie G

No, if anything more of a malty fresh flavour. I use a fair amount of xtal as well, so that would mask any reduction of maltiness from the base malt, I guess.


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## jyo

Cheers, mate.


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## keifer33

Will have to try this as I seem to be getting less time to brew. Short high mash + short boil = low alc school night beer.


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## GrumpyPaul

Im loving the fact that my dumb mistake has got people trying something a bit new and different.

Cheers to Bribie and anyone else that understands the technical side of it all to be testing it out. Great also to see you doing it more than once to test out the repeatability of it too.


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## lael

I want to try this. Would using pils base malt be a bad bad idea? DMS etc etc... 

What is xtal?


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## Donske

GrumpyPaul said:


> Im loving the fact that my dumb mistake has got people trying something a bit new and different.
> 
> Cheers to Bribie and anyone else that understands the technical side of it all to be testing it out. Great also to see you doing it more than once to test out the repeatability of it too.



Cheers for starting this thread, started as a good chuckle and progressed onto some new ideas, I've now done a few 30 minute boils to cut some time off my brew days, also have a cube of mild that was 30 minute mash and boil, now that was a great brew day and could quite easily be knocked out in evening after work.


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## lukiferj

lael said:


> I want to try this. Would using pils base malt be a bad bad idea? DMS etc etc...
> 
> What is xtal?


Xtal = crystal


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## lael

Thx!


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## toncils

I was at a talk where the chap from Brew Cult said his Hoppinator (I think it was that beer) is a 30 min mash and 30 min boil, half hops at 10 minutes and the rest dry.
Seems pretty cool, but I'd be worried about efficiency!


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## Dunkelbrau

Bribie G said:


> One thing I've found with my two 30 minute boilers so far is the massive Pavlova Heads I'm getting with the UK style all malt versions.
> 
> Anyone else getting this? Maybe the short boil isn't zapping certain proteins? It's very frustrating pouring the first pint of the day and having to wait so long. First World Problem. :lol:
> 
> Pavlova head.jpg


God that looks delicious!

This whole idea is interesting for sure!


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## Bribie G

lael said:


> I want to try this. Would using pils base malt be a bad bad idea? DMS etc etc...
> 
> What is xtal?


I've never had what I would recognise as DMS. Perhaps this could be a problem with old school continental malts such as Bohemian Floor Malted, but with Aussie "Pilsener" malts I doubt if DMS would be a problem. I note that traditional Czech breweries like Pilsner Urquell do (or used to do) a 2 hour boil. Don't know if that's still the case, that info is from a very old Michael Jackson video of his brewery tour.

I'll get round to using my sack of Joe White Pilsener, so that should be a good test.


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## pedleyr

Bribie G said:


> I've never had what I would recognise as DMS. Perhaps this could be a problem with old school continental malts such as Bohemian Floor Malted, but with Aussie "Pilsener" malts I doubt if DMS would be a problem. I note that traditional Czech breweries like Pilsner Urquell do (or used to do) a 2 hour boil. Don't know if that's still the case, that info is from a very old Michael Jackson video of his brewery tour.
> 
> I'll get round to using my sack of Joe White Pilsener, so that should be a good test.


For whatever it's worth, I've been using Joe White export pilsner in Hefeweizens for the last 3 months (about 5 batches worth of Hefeweizens), doing 45 minute boils + no-chill and have not noticed anything that resembles the descriptions given for DMS. I expect it'd show up in a hefeweizen without a lot else going on to mask it. 

Now I've never tasted anything that I've known to have DMS to help identify it, and my palate is probably not the most advanced, but it anecdotally supports your theory. 45 minutes is more than 30 minutes of course, but it's half the recommended 90 minutes.


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## Not For Horses

Currently drinking the first of 2 of my 30 minute brew.
I got good hot break on brew day.
Bitterness is as I expected from a 15 minute addition.
The clarity is as good as any 60min+ boil that I have done.
I used my ale malt and can't detect any dms.
Nothing unexpected to report really.


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## Kiwifirst

Been reading this thread with a high degree of interest. Was planning a brew this weekend, was thinking of an IPA so have 5.2 of pale and .5 of golden. Original plan was to try a protein rest, to practice for my second hefe attempt. But given I want to brew two weekends in a row, doing a 30 min mash and 30 min boil means I can get the kids to the beach quicker  

Thus proving to all that I can brew and enjoy the day with the family.


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## Kiwifirst

Update, ran my first batch this morning. I thought I'd outline the times below, in case any other occasional brewer wants to see the time savings.

IPA with 5.2kg Pale and 500g Amber

Today's Brew

9.30am setup, heat water make coffee, 
10am - Pour water in cooler close lid, 
10.30am - Pour off and re-circulate, drain 
10.45am - Add batch sparge water to cooler 
11.00am - Pour off and re-circulate, drain 
11.20am - Brought to boil
11.50am - End boil start cooiling
12.05pm - at 32c
12:35pm - at 24c (Need to set up a ice bucket and fish pump, that last 8c took 30mins)
12:45pm - In brew bucket in broken down fridge (sigh)
1:15pm - Cleaned up and off out for ice cream with the kids. 

I was aiming for SG of 1.056 and hit 1.053 so a little low there. I did use a much more aggressive rolling boil given I had 30 mins not 60. 
Whilst I say it was a 30 minute mash, it was more like a 40 minute, by the time I had recirculated and starting draining.

Looking forward to now tasting this brew. I stuffed up with the hops as I was meant to start with 20g of Simcoe and threw in 20g of Amarillo instead. So added the Simcoe anyway, which will put the IBU's up into the late 50's.

Cheers


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## Token

I SO need to try this. Thanks for all the posts and info guys!


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## Bribie G

I've done four batches so far, latest two being Joe White pilsner malt, no DMS or any other off flavours, and excellent clarity.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Bribie G said:


> I've done four batches so far, latest two being Joe White pilsner malt, no DMS or any other off flavours, and excellent clarity.


Thanks for this Bribie - I got a fairly bit of (Free) JW Pils malt.

I used Maris Otter yesterday, but couldn't bring myself to using a 30 minute mash and boil on it. But I might have the guts to do it on your cream ale in the AG Corona Flamesuit thread. I've got nugget and a spot of galaxy to replace galena.


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## sponge

FWIW, I've just kegged my 30min mild over the weekend and will sample next weekend after it's chilled and carbed. Pretty exited to try it..


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## technobabble66

Do you think there's a danger of DMS with the continental pilsners?
I just got a big fat bag of Wey Boh Pils & one of Simpson's MO in a BB. Do you think they'd be ok for a 30min boil? Or is it likely it's only the new world malts that are highly modified enough for the short boil?


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## Bribie G

UK malts such as Simpsons are highly modified. The euro malts used to be poorly modified but in the case of Wey I think thats no longer the case, unless that Bohemian is the _floor malted one_ which is far more traditional.


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## Bribie G

As posted earlier one thing that's really apparent, and I put it down to the shorter boil, are the spectacular heads in my last few brews. Some sort of protein thing going on I'd guess.


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## technobabble66

Wow. Now that's a lotta head!
Is it good creamy carbonation in it? Or is it lemonade-style carbing?



Oh, & thanks for the heads-up h34r: on the Wey Boh Pils - i think mine is the non-floor malted kind.


----------



## Bribie G

Creamy. I don't carbonate heavily as most of my brews are UK style ales.


----------



## Kiwifirst

My 30/30 has been on for 6 days at 16c and down to 1.018 so I am going to increase to about 18c for a few more days. Sample taste seems ok.


----------



## GrumpyPaul

I have one bottle left of the original and infamous "School Night IPA" that started this thread_._

I think it might be fun to enter it into "Beerfest" to see how it gets judged.

It wont be a winnning beer by any means - but it will be interesting to see how the judges percieve it.


----------



## lukiferj

I'm going to give this a go tonight. Looking at doing an ESB type thing with a 30 minute boil.


----------



## angus_grant

yep, my brau-clone is ready for a test run so will run a normal 60 minute batch through in 2 weekends. Once that is done and cubed, I will trial a 30 min IPA.

yay for school night brewing!!


----------



## lukiferj

Depending on what ingredients I have at home, may even do a UK mild with a 30 minute mash and 30 minute boil. Be nice if I could pump out something decent in a couple of hours.


----------



## lukiferj

Finally got around to brewing this morning. One of my kids was sick so boom. Impromptu brew day  Put down an ESB with a 30 minute mash at 69 and then a 30 minutr boil. All up brew day was 2.5 hours from cracking the grain to clean up and cube chilling in the pool. Will pitch yeast tonight and see how it goes bit so far everything appears to be in order.


----------



## Sam England

Sick kid brew days are always great, although my last one had a few issues.
Daughter pokes head out of door, "Dad I'm not feeling good". Vomits on the dog. Dog shakes herself off all over brewery, side of house, daughter and me. Luckily the lid was on the brauclone during the mash so no added nutrients.
Back on topic - Will be giving this a crack soon as well as turning to the darkside and trying Nochill. Tap water is at 26 degrees with the tank water even hotter given the scorchers we've been having in Adelaide.


----------



## Blitzer

Bribie are you mashing & boiling for 30 minutes? Or mashing regular (60-90) and boiling for 30?


----------



## Donske

Blitzer said:


> Bribie are you mashing & boiling for 30 minutes? Or mashing regular (60-90) and boiling for 30?


I've done a couple of 30 minute mashes on milds and bitters, works a treat when mashing so hot, normally at 70°c.


----------



## sponge

I always do a short mash on a mild. As stated above, conversion is quick with high temperatures.

Combining this with the short boil is glorious.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Donske said:


> I've done a couple of 30 minute mashes on milds and bitters, works a treat when mashing so hot, normally at 70°c.


Do you leave the mash tun less insulated and allow the temp to drop over the mash, or maintain the temp instead?

I've mashed a pale mild at 72 degrees and bumped up the bitterness to compensate and worked out great - though not on a short time mash regimen.


----------



## sponge

Should just maintain the temp LRG.

Just like mashing at say 65.. just hold the temp but no need to do it for as long as you do with a lower mash temp.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

sponge said:


> Should just maintain the temp LRG.
> 
> Just like mashing at say 65.. just hold the temp but no need to do it for as long as you do with a lower mash temp.


Excellent.

Single infusion I assume, not a stepped/ramped mash?


----------



## sponge

That's a negative ghost rider.

Single step, no sparge, short boil, <3hr brew day.

From there you can make it complex as you would like.


----------



## Parks

I haven't read everything in this entire thread but I'm wondering if you guys all use higher mash temps to increase the dextrins to volume ratio.

eg, when you boil for an hour+ and achieve a 10% reduction in volume you also concentrate the dextrins.

Conversely, I'd be interested in finding out if people's final gravities are lower using this method (and not adjusting mash temp).


----------



## Tahoose

I'm a bit of a AG noob here so I'm most likely wrong, but doesn't a higher mash temp 68-70c produce more unfermentable sugars, than say 64-66c?

So you be more likely to have a higher Final Gravity?


----------



## sponge

Bang on.

With milds being so low strength, the idea is to get in as much body as possible to not leave a mild too dry (although there are some who prefer drier milds)


----------



## Not For Horses

Been drinking a few different 30min pale ales lately and the head has been the same as any other beer. Nice dense thick foam and same retention as 60min beers.


----------



## doon

Brewed one up the other night 30 at 69, 78 for 10 then 30 mins boil with 100 grams Styrian in cube. Going to ferment with 1469 this week will report back


----------



## smokenmirraz

Thanks for the tip, OP and others who followed in his path 

After a 4 month brewing break due to moving house and being a relatively light drinker, I broke the drought with an ESB style 30 min mash/30 min boil yesterday. All done in under 2.5 hours, but hopefully next time will be faster, as now I know where all the brewing gear is located :beerbang:


----------



## Yeastfridge

Bump. Love what's going on in this thread, not just for saving time but for sticking it to convention. Just read everything from the start. 
I've got a pretty simple BIAB no sparge no chill setup that's been working well for me ever since I put in a ball valve. 

Any comment on shorter mash times for BIAB? Probably fine for a mild or any hotter mash, but what about a regular pale ale at 65/66C, or a Munich SMaSH? BIAB efficiency is not great to start with as far as I've read (I'm hitting 70-75% brewhouse efficiency with regular 5%abv brews these days, without a sparge).


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Slightly OT, but I found that one big jump in efficiency happens when you know the pH of your water (or at least can guess that it's pretty alkaline) and adjust down to an idea mash pH.

I'm getting 75% with a sparge BIAB here because (from Taswater) the water's pH is pretty high. In Brisbane after the 2011 flood, I had a sudden drop in efficiency and after tweaking, used around 200g (in a 5.5kg batch) of acidulated malt and voila! my efficiency was back up to normal (mid 80's). Same would go for the pH adjust that CB sells.

Back OT - what's the efficiency drop for a 30 minute mash? Curious to see if anyone want to do a side by side with the same ingredients water, etc between a 60 or 90 min mash and a 30 min mash.


----------



## mckenry

Sorry for not reading all 114 posts in this thread and thw question may have already been answered. Quick question for the 10 minute boilers. Any DMS (corn / creamed corn smell) showing up? DMS has a half life of 40mins when boiled. Even doing a 60min boil only reduces DMS by roughly 2/3. There is always DMS, its just whether you can detect it. I'd imagine a 10 min boil would leave a noticable amount behind?
I guess this question is mainly aimed at lagers and light ales.

Edit - just did the maths. Whatever DMS was produced in the mash, has only been reduced by 16%.
Thats a whopping 84% of DMS still in the wort.

Can anyone detect it?


----------



## manticle

So far it has been suggested it's not an issue and maybe modern ale malts are modified enough to have such low levels of SMM that it won't be.

My understanding though is that the boil itself transforms the SMM to DMS which is volatile (SMM isn't). SMM remaining unconverted has the potential to later be converted (some yeast activity, bacterial infection, possible other causes) so DMS may not be immediately be noticeable - you just may have carried over enough SMM to be a problem later. In a 10 minute boil you may get little DMS but carry over the majority of the SMM which has potential to become DMS.

If you can't detect DMS within the time you drink it, I guess it's not an isssue.


----------



## Bribie G

McK, the thread as it now stands is more about a 30 minute boil, not 10 minutes - however I will be doing all my competition ales this year with a 30 min boil and see how they go.


----------



## mckenry

manticle said:


> So far it has been suggested it's not an issue and maybe modern ale malts are modified enough to have such low levels of SMM that it won't be.
> 
> My understanding though is that the boil itself transforms the SMM to DMS which is volatile (SMM isn't). SMM remaining unconverted has the potential to later be converted (some yeast activity, bacterial infection, possible other causes) so DMS may not be immediately be noticeable - you just may have carried over enough SMM to be a problem later. In a 10 minute boil you may get little DMS but carry over the majority of the SMM which has potential to become DMS.
> 
> If you can't detect DMS within the time you drink it, I guess it's not an isssue.


Mashing converts SMM to DMS (and DMSO) - SMM only needs heat to convert. Also some DMS is created during the boil, but boiled off, to a point, never 0.
As I see it, most of the DMS youre ever going to get is already in the wort, post mash. Boiling gets rid of it at a half life of 40 mins. Thats why I was a bit shocked to read 10 min boil. As Bribie points out this thread has a consensus of 30 mins for boiling, which in theory is still going to retain more than half the DMS.

Still - this thread is about IPA's and really, IPA's mask everything. Sometimes even the fact its a beer.....

Flame-suit ON!!


----------



## Parks

mckenry said:


> Mashing converts SMM to DMS (and DMSO) - SMM only needs heat to convert. Also some DMS is created during the boil, but boiled off, to a point, never 0.
> As I see it, most of the DMS youre ever going to get is already in the wort, post mash. Boiling gets rid of it at a half life of 40 mins. Thats why I was a bit shocked to read 10 min boil. As Bribie points out this thread has a consensus of 30 mins for boiling, which in theory is still going to retain more than half the DMS.
> 
> Still - this thread is about IPA's and really, IPA's mask everything. Sometimes even the fact its a beer.....
> 
> Flame-suit ON!!


Also keep in mind that a vigorous ferment will drive off DMS too.


----------



## mckenry

Parks said:


> Also keep in mind that a vigorous ferment will drive off DMS too.


Yep, I realise that. If no-one is getting DMS in the final product then its all good. I'm all for innovation and testing 'accepted wisdom' its just that sometimes I think some corners need to remain pointy. Keen to hear if this really is a winner as it could save a truck load of gas during the boil.


----------



## GrumpyPaul

The thread title is a bit misleading for where this thread has ended up.

It started out my ignorance of mistakenly thinking a 10 minute IPA meant a 10minute boil.

Apart from me learning from my mistake it has got a lot o people thinking about and experimenting with shorter boil times, presumably because it can cut down on the brew time....

There has been lots of discussion about modern malts and minimum boil time required etc. - I have been following this with interest (mostly like a proud parent of the OP) and it seems that the consensus is 30 to 40 minutes is the go.

So don’t be confused by the 10min reference in the thread title...I don’t think anyone other the me and my ignorance at the beginning thinks 10mis is a good idea.

It is really cool to sit back and see people testing and challenging the conventional thinking to come up with new brewing processes. (bit like BIAB)

If short boil times become an accepted method of brewing I like the idea of thinking I was the ignorant father of the "30 minute boil process"...kind of like the dead beat dad that abandons his child on some loving and caring foster parent (Bribie G and others) to bring it up and nurture it properly.


----------



## Kleiny

This thread is a great read,

A couple of thoughts:

Boiling the wort for 60min or more has always had advantages set out in multiple texts, the main driver being hop isomerisation but also removal of unwanted proteins and DMS. With malters now trying to eliminate as much smm in their malts there is a big reduction of DMS forming, the main point is hop utilisation which happens to be a non issue for home brewers brewing IPA's, APA'sor ESB's and the like we want high hop aroma and flavour and can achieve a good bitterness within 30min boil times. If you are brewing commercially large batches then this would take a lot more hops and cost a lot more to produce your beer. As long as we achieving a good break and getting a clear product.

I wouldnt try a 30min boil for a pils or munich helles but for the other ale styles i mentioned above its a great time saving method.

On the mash side again with modern malts especially ale malts there is no reason you could not achieve conversion within 20-30min if you know how to complete a iodine test this would give you a true indication of conversion. This fact has always been in plain view its just a safe option to mash for 60min as it will guarantee conversion with out testing. The fact that some have reported a larger foamy head is also attributed to the shorter mash as longer mash has always had an effect of the head forming proteins.

I will definitely be trying a 30min mash 30min boil APA very soon.

This thread has been great. Thanks Kleiny


----------



## Not For Horses

mckenry said:


> Mashing converts SMM to DMS (and DMSO) - SMM only needs heat to convert. Also some DMS is created during the boil, but boiled off, to a point, never 0.
> As I see it, most of the DMS youre ever going to get is already in the wort, post mash. Boiling gets rid of it at a half life of 40 mins. Thats why I was a bit shocked to read 10 min boil. As Bribie points out this thread has a consensus of 30 mins for boiling, which in theory is still going to retain more than half the DMS.
> 
> Still - this thread is about IPA's and really, IPA's mask everything. Sometimes even the fact its a beer.....
> 
> Flame-suit ON!!


Go back another step, DMS is also created during the kilning process.
Ale malt typically has MORE DMS than Pils malt but less precursor and Pils malt has more precursor and less DMS.

Also (apologies if this has already been mentioned) SMM is one of many DMS precursors.
Some of these precursors are not converted during mash or boil but _can_ be converted by certain yeast strains.

DMS is a complex beast and can not be pinned down so simply to the length of the boil. There has been a fair bit of research into DMS production over the years and some interesting reading can be had online from the Journal of the Institute of Brewing (JOIB)

Throwing hops at it is a good way to mask it though!


----------



## Not For Horses

PS
I don't think you need a flame suit for a differing opinion. It's what drives good conversation.


----------



## mckenry

Not For Horses said:


> Go back another step, DMS is also created during the kilning process.
> Ale malt typically has MORE DMS than Pils malt but less precursor and Pils malt has more precursor and less DMS.
> 
> Also (apologies if this has already been mentioned) SMM is one of many DMS precursors.
> Some of these precursors are not converted during mash or boil but _can_ be converted by certain yeast strains.
> 
> DMS is a complex beast and can not be pinned down so simply to the length of the boil. There has been a fair bit of research into DMS production over the years and some interesting reading can be had online from the Journal of the Institute of Brewing (JOIB)
> 
> Throwing hops at it is a good way to mask it though!


Hey NFH,
Yep, not trying to oversimplify DMS. It certainly is a complex beast. As you point out, DMS and it precursors are everywhere. What the homebrewer can do about most of it, is SFA. What the homebrewer can do about it is a vigourous long boil and ferment. I only entered into this thread with regard to a 10min boil (which has since evolved into 30mins) My point is, with DMS lurking at every stage of the process, why take a shortcut that may contribute to the problem? 
Then I stated that IPA hopping is going to mask it anyway, so who cares? My flamesuit was donned for stating that an IPA can even mask the fact that its a beer and not a bitter, hoppy, smelly, alcoholic, liquid of some other incarnation. Just a joke. I do like an IPA.


----------



## manticle

> Mashing converts SMM to DMS (and DMSO) - SMM only needs heat to convert. Also some DMS is created during the boil, but boiled off, to a point, never 0.
> As I see it, most of the DMS youre ever going to get is already in the wort, post mash. Boiling gets rid of it at a half life of 40 mins. Thats why I was a bit shocked to read 10 min boil. As Bribie points out this thread has a consensus of 30 mins for boiling, which in theory is still going to retain more than half the DMS.
> 
> Still - this thread is about IPA's and really, IPA's mask everything. Sometimes even the fact its a beer.....
> 
> Flame-suit ON!!


You are right that SMM is converted at various points during processing but I'd be surprised if it were all converted in the mash. I would presume that mash and wort would be very strong in cooked corn and tomato sauce type flavours which I've never noticed it to be. I can certainly smell DMS evaporate during a boil and whirlpool stand.

My point I'm making above is that unconverted SMM remaining in finished beer can be converted at a later point during fermentation.


----------



## mje1980

First brew I do when I can ( in a splint at present ) I'm going to try it. Pale mild with wey pils and some cara bohemian and a bees dick of hops at 30 mins. Might try it with mangrove jacks Newcastle dark ale yeast.,


----------



## marksy

Gave this a whirl the other night, greatly reduced my brew time by several hours. Beer is bubbling away nicely, the only step I did differently was sparged for 20-30mins into the kettle with first wort hop addition and straight onto the heat. Once I done the sparge, I had an almost rolling boil which I did for the remaining time until 60mins had passed since I started the sparge.

Look forward to trying it now.


----------



## Snow

Inspired by this thread (which doesn't happen for me very often on this site anymore...), I brewed an English bitter with a 30 min mash and a 30 min boil. Recipe as follows:

*[SIZE=14pt]Snow’s 30 Minute Bitter[/SIZE]*
Batch Volume: 25L
Brewhouse efficiency: 70%
IBUs: 23
OG: 1.054

5kg TF Maris Otter 83.33 %
500g Maize flour 8.33 %
300g Wy Carawheat 5 %
200g Sugar 3.33 %
40g Challenger [7.2% AA] (30 min) 17.6 IBU
40g EKG [4.6% AA] (15 min) 5.4 IBU
20g Challenger [7.2 %] (flameout) 
5g Chalk (Mash 30 min)
5g Gypsum (Mash 30 min) 
English Ale (Craftbrewer) Dry Ale Yeast

Mashed at 67c for 30 mins
Mashout at 78c for 10 mins
Double batch sparge at 78-80c
Chilled with immersion chiller for 40 mins
Pitched yeast at 16c and fermented at 18c.

Got bang-on the estimated OG and volume, which surprised me, as I didn't trust my boil calcs or my efficiency estimation (just dropped 2% from my normal system efficiency), and I was worried about starch conversion. Hot break looked normal. I may have underdone the bitterness a tad, but c'est la vie!

Will give you an update when it's kegged and poured!

Cheers - Snow.


----------



## [email protected]

I haven't been on AHB for a while as the Ballarat Uni Brewing course satisfies (and then some) my thirst for information/knowledge in brewing.

The key thing about boiling the wort is that it is not necessarily all about time but the vigour or turbulence of the boil (temp if you are under pressure) to remove volatiles and also protein coagulation (hot break). I have attached a paper from The Institute of Brewing and Distilling that gives some insight into modern day boiling processes. Most commercial systems are always trying to reduce boil time (look up Merlin System = 35 min boil) which leads to energy and time saving as well as a reduction in colour formation through Maillard Reactions - to make those beers even paler! Boil vigour/kettle shape is also why professional kettles can also get higher hop utilisation.

If you look at the paper it has a graph (hard to read) that shows you want to aim for a 5% evaporation rate to reduce any grassy/grainy, fruity and sulphidic character in the final beer.

The question of DMS. SMM is converted to DMS when the temperature is > 80-85 degC. The precursor SMM is present right through the process of malting and is generated in the rootlets. For malts that are not pilsner/lager these are kilned at higher temperatures ~100C. At these temperatures a portion of the SMM is converted to DMS and volatised off resulting in a reduced amount of SMM. With Pilsner malts these are kilned at fairly low temperatures ~80degC, to reduce maillard reactions and colour formation, which means a larger proportion of SMM remains in the malt. The maltsters use other techniques during the germination phase to help reduce the SMM precursor. DMS won't occur whenever the temperature is below 80 degC and won't be a problem after the wort is cooled.

DMSO occurs during kilning by conversion of some of the SMM. DMSO is water soluble and is not removed during the boil (not heat labile) is in the wort at relatively high levels. DMSO ihas greater presence in higher kilned malts (ale malt). DMSO can be converted to DMS by an enzyme in the yeast. However, the enzyme prefers to convert another substrate that is also present so the tendency to develop DMS in the fermentation is generally low but is dependent on yeast strain, nitro gen level (depletion = more DMSO->DMS), and temperature (lower T = more DMSO->DMS). Process is generally higher with lager yeasts. Gram positive Bacteria rapidly reduce DMSO -> DMS and can be associated with DMS aroma.

What does it mean for the Home Brewer?

If I was going for a reduced boil, I would aim for a minimum of 5% evaporation and would boil with as much vigour as I could to aid in volatisation and protein coagulation and adjust my time to suit. Use only a highly kilned malt, ale malt or possibly even better munich malt to reduce the SMM (DMS precursor).

Hope that adds a little more science and theory behind the issues.

Have a look at the IBD site it has a number of freely available papers on brewing that anyone can get hold of. 

View attachment 02 - The function of wort boiling1.pdf


----------



## Bribie G

Mate they have been hammering it into your Cerebral Cortex down there at Ballarat :beerbang:

Excellent advice and thanks, I'll be dragging out my over the side element to boil more vigorously in the urn. Point taken about my Weyermann Premium Pilsner and Floor Malted, I've been doing an hour or more boil with them.


----------



## Kiwifirst

Fascinating stuff and thank you. I would say my boil could be best described as gentle, I will obviously now review this and have a rip roaring one on the go. Now to work out the water required for said boil.


----------



## Snow

Snow said:


> Inspired by this thread (which doesn't happen for me very often on this site anymore...), I brewed an English bitter with a 30 min mash and a 30 min boil. Recipe as follows:
> 
> *Snow’s 30 Minute Bitter*
> Batch Volume: 25L
> Brewhouse efficiency: 70%
> IBUs: 23
> OG: 1.054
> 
> 5kg TF Maris Otter 83.33 %
> 500g Maize flour 8.33 %
> 300g Wy Carawheat 5 %
> 200g Sugar 3.33 %
> 40g Challenger [7.2% AA] (30 min) 17.6 IBU
> 40g EKG [4.6% AA] (15 min) 5.4 IBU
> 20g Challenger [7.2 %] (flameout)
> 5g Chalk (Mash 30 min)
> 5g Gypsum (Mash 30 min)
> English Ale (Craftbrewer) Dry Ale Yeast
> 
> Mashed at 67c for 30 mins
> Mashout at 78c for 10 mins
> Double batch sparge at 78-80c
> Chilled with immersion chiller for 40 mins
> Pitched yeast at 16c and fermented at 18c.
> 
> Got bang-on the estimated OG and volume, which surprised me, as I didn't trust my boil calcs or my efficiency estimation (just dropped 2% from my normal system efficiency), and I was worried about starch conversion. Hot break looked normal. I may have underdone the bitterness a tad, but c'est la vie!
> 
> Will give you an update when it's kegged and poured!
> 
> Cheers - Snow.




and here's the result!

A little cloudy due to my poor racking technique. Nice malt profile, great hop flavour but a little under done in aroma. Bitterness turned out ok. I'm convinced the 30 min approach works for this style. Would be keen to try it on an APA.


----------



## Kiwifirst

My APA's doing this have worked well. The 30 minute mash works out to be a bit longer after doing some re circulation and then draining. I had to bump up the hop amount for bitterness as the first one was way under bitter taste with only 30 mins. 
I love having this process down pat now, next one I am going to try it with a no chill, which would mean I could run a AG brew on a week night.


----------



## Snow

That's good to hear, Kiwi. I'll definitely give an APA a go next time. 

Cheers - Snow


----------



## Kiwifirst

Tried the new APA Friday. It is a little light on bitterness. I had it set at high 40's in my software, but i do not think it is anywhere near that.

I am not convinced that it was the short boil time though, I was using a homemade hop basket and had put 120g of hops in there, I think it was too small for that volume of hops and basically compacted the hops and I don't think they got the advantage of the boil.

Added half a bottle of hop extract (7 ml?) into the keg and it seems about right now. Saved.


----------



## buckerooni

fantastic thread, this has made school night brewing a reality for me and have been loving it, been busting out brews like it ain't no thing!


----------



## buckerooni

got me thinking with the trub vs non trub fermenting http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/, I'm gonna skip the whirlpool and dump most of it in the no-chill jerry (and leave it to the gelatine to clear up). This will mean I should be able to turn one around in under 3 hrs from urn on to wash up.

will try a weekend 60/60 brew of the same recipe one day soon and see if there's much diff...


----------



## Tahoose

I'm not really into fermenting in cubes just cause I'd rather stick my hand inside the fermenter with a wet cloth and clean the krausen off. 
On occasions where I have alot of trub in the cube I either use the tap to pitch into the fermenter or siphon into the fermenter and leave the trub behind.


----------



## droid

wow what a thread! - just read the whole thing, squirming around in my chair towards the end tho

thumbs up to grumpy and the people that didn't naysay

for me as a pale ale brewer this is fantastic news, i'm going 30(to 40 with sparge) mash and hard boil for 30 with marris otter pale ale
though since some have reported a lighter bitterness I am going to put a handful into the mash instead <edit = hops> done that before and it was all good

awesome stuff - thanks, school nights for me


----------



## Nizmoose

I like this thread for a few reasons, firstly it seems that the Australians are more recently the ones willing to put a batch or three on the line for the sake of trying something different (BIAB comes to mind as well) and also that it seems no matter how many scientists and brewing conventions tell us that you can't do this for that reason or that for this reason people seem to do it anyway and all of a sudden the world doesn't implode as predicted and everyone sort of scratches their head and sticks with it because it works (no-chill comes to mind). Not hating on the scientists (I just completed a science degree) but I think sometimes it's good to say "well you're telling me it won't work but I'm going to try anyway" because sometimes you end up changing the way things are done, and I think the Australians are getting bloody good at it!


----------



## rossbaker

Are many of the people posting on this thread using the short mash/boil with BIAB? I'm pretty close to trying my first all grain, and although I think I'll stick to the status quo for my first one or two brews, I'd love to streamline the process as much as possible eventually.


----------



## marksy

Ive done it a few times when brew day just seems to take for ever.


----------



## Tahoose

rossbaker said:


> Are many of the people posting on this thread using the short mash/boil with BIAB? I'm pretty close to trying my first all grain, and although I think I'll stick to the status quo for my first one or two brews, I'd love to streamline the process as much as possible eventually.


 Quickest brew I've done with this method was just under 2 hours, mash in 30min first rest, couple infusions and a batch sparge. 10min boil, 100% cube hops and all cleaned up.

aussie pale ale

75% ale
25% wheat

Amarillo and galaxy from memory to 23 ibu


----------



## bradsbrew

I am planning a brew tomorrow.

Aiming for 140 Litres with an SG of around 1.056. 

Brewmate set to no chill gives me an IBU of 50.58 when hop addition is set to aroma and 87 when set to boil. 

Given that I will be adding the hops at flameout prior to whirlpool, which setting should I use?

Oh yeah, hop addition is 1kg of Galaxy flowers.

Cheers


----------



## mtb

Sure this is the right thread brad?


----------



## GrumpyPaul

any thread started out of my ignorance - is the right thread.


----------



## bradsbrew

mtb said:


> Sure this is the right thread brad?


Not sure, there are plenty of 10 minute IPA threads and this one seemed the latest? Whilst it may be a question related to brewmate the process is closer to 10 minute IPA.


----------



## mofox1

bradsbrew said:


> Brewmate set to no chill gives me an IBU of 50.58 when hop addition is set to aroma and 87 when set to boil.
> 
> Given that I will be adding the hops at flameout prior to whirlpool, which setting should I use?


I'd say aroma - it's what I use for anything after flameout, although to be fair it's *usually* for sub-90 cube additions.



bradsbrew said:


> Oh yeah, hop addition is 1kg of Galaxy flowers.


 :blink: ... :kooi:


----------



## mtb

bradsbrew said:


> Not sure, there are plenty of 10 minute IPA threads and this one seemed the latest? Whilst it may be a question related to brewmate the process is closer to 10 minute IPA.


Oh yeah, that makes sense. I think I'd become distracted by Grumpy's epic failure and misinterpreted the OT - thought you'd mistakenly posted in the wrong thread!


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

If I do cube only, I just set brew mate to no chill, 0 min addition. IT works for me.


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## bradsbrew

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> If I do cube only, I just set brew mate to no chill, 0 min addition. IT works for me.


That is what I normally do, except this time all my hops are going in post boil. Pretty sure I should get enough bitterness from 1KG of galaxy. Just wanting an idea of the ibu so I can adjust mash temp and malt appropriately.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

bradsbrew said:


> That is what I normally do, except this time all my hops are going in post boil. Pretty sure I should get enough bitterness from 1KG of galaxy. Just wanting an idea of the ibu so I can adjust mash temp and malt appropriately.



I treated one batch where I waited to pitch hops into the cube until it cooled 5 degrees, as a 10 min chilled IPA. I reckon I wasn't too far wrong with the bitterness. Thought I did find that it wasn't as 'bitter' as I'd hoped, and that actually affected the perceived hoppiness. I ended up switching straight back to cube hopping.

That is with a sample size of 1 and YMMV of course.


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## Lionman

This thread was actually about short boils, not late additions.

Any recent news on 30 min mash and boil? Does it impact on efficiency doing a short mash?

Interested in doing school night brews, cutting it down to ~2 hours total would be great.


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## drjoffily

[SIZE=10.5pt]Awesome thread everyone! Kudos to GrumpyPaul. I'm in the same boat. 2 small kids not a lot of time... I'll definitely try the 30/30 in my next brew. Probably a Pale Ale.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Anyone tried this modern revolutionising approach using a Grainfather? Should I reduce the amount of sparging water since there'll be less evaporation with the short boil?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Cheers[/SIZE]


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## Lionman

drjoffily said:


> [SIZE=10.5pt]Awesome thread everyone! Kudos to GrumpyPaul. I'm in the same boat. 2 small kids not a lot of time... I'll definitely try the 30/30 in my next brew. Probably a Pale Ale.[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10.5pt]Anyone tried this modern revolutionising approach using a Grainfather? Should I reduce the amount of sparging water since there'll be less evaporation with the short boil?[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=10.5pt]Cheers[/SIZE]



I would. You would have to tweak recipes for less efficiency and less boil off. Essentially use a bit more grist and sparge less.


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## kaiserben

The Grainfather mash/sparge water calculator allows you to set your boil time. So you can make it 30 mins and it'll lower your sparge water amount accordingly.


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## MHB

Before you start thinking of boiling (or mashing) for 30 minutes or even less like 10 minutes (God forbid) it would be a good idea to understand what happens in a boil.
This from the IBD is a good introduction to the role of boiling View attachment 02_-_The_function_of_wort_boiling11.pdf
and a bit on how to boil.View attachment 06 - The process of wort boiling 2.pdf


Worth remembering that the Utilisation of hops in a 10 minute boil is 9% (or less) in a well designed kettle with a vigorous boil, that's for pellets, less again for flowers.

To get anything like enough bitterness you are going to need massive amounts of hops, short boils will not get the protein reduction necessary for clean stable beer. Generally high protein levels make beer taste "muddy" or "muted" saying that the flavours aren't fully expressed.
Mark


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## manticle

drjoffily said:


> Awesome thread everyone! Kudos to GrumpyPaul. I'm in the same boat. 2 small kids not a lot of time... I'll definitely try the 30/30 in my next brew. Probably a Pale Ale.[/size]
> Anyone tried this modern revolutionising approach using a Grainfather? Should I reduce the amount of sparging water since there'll be less evaporation with the short boil?[/size]
> [/size]
> Cheers[/size]


After your last post about high temps using crystal and amber, I'd focus on getting the simple things right before playing around too much. Learn the whats, wheres and whys, then experiment with intention and an understanding of the results.

Not having a go - everyone starts somewhere and I know I'm still learning and enjoying the process.


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## GrumpyPaul

manticle said:


> After your last post about high temps using crystal and amber, I'd focus on getting the simple things right before playing around too much. Learn the whats, wheres and whys, then experiment with intention and an understanding of the results.
> 
> Not having a go - everyone starts somewhere and I know I'm still learning and enjoying the process.


As the instigator of this thread - I concur with the focus on getting the simple things right first concept.

I'm sure that many of us start out wanting to get all experimental and try all sorts of weird and wonderful things - I know I did

I did learn a lot from this thread and my beers have improved no end by spending a fair bit of time a) focusing on basics of brewing technique and recipe formulation and b) googling the crap out of stuff to really try and learn stuff a lot more than when I started this thread and ignorantly thought it took 10 minutes to brew a 10 minute IPA.

Keep on learning - keep on reading - ask lots of questions - and most of all enjoy what you are doing.

Cheers


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## Mardoo

Well, now, here's something interesting to add to the conversation. Apparently Norway has a whole tradition of fermenting unboiled ales.


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## drjoffily

Hi guys check this out... http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/08/update-lab-data-on-pils-malt-boil-length-exbeeriment/


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## MHB

Mardoo said:


> Well, now, here's something interesting to add to the conversation. Apparently Norway has a whole tradition of fermenting unboiled ales.


Not just Norway, there are various versions of Shati from most of Scandinavia, unboiled maze beers from South America and Sorghum tribal beers from all over Africa, most of the last couple involve someone chewing the grist to provide the Amylase, then spitting the "mash" into a pot. Some of the ones from the Andes involve the use of baby poo at a yeast source...
People have found lots of ways to get pissed over the millennia, thankfully these days we know a lot more about brewing and can turn out some fairly tasty beer.
Its just a matter of using the basic brewing ingredients properly, that includes doing a sensible boil.
Mark


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## manticle

I think the point to be taken is that you can try any and every technique as long as you have an understanding of why and how you achieve the results you do (and the results you want). For example, in Mardoo's link, a very pertinent correlation is shown between beer stability and protein due to short/no boil. 

Very different story to blindly following brulosophy or simply trying to cut as many corners as possible but still make booze.


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## Duploman

I've just spent a whole evening reading this thread from start to finish. Learnt a lot and been inspired to hit up a school nite brew. Thank you all for your passionate input and knowledge.

You guys rock,!


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## MHB

Do you mean that you read this entire thread and concluded that a 10 minute boil is a good idea?


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## manticle

10 min boil is a great idea.

Just follow it up with another 5 x 10 minute boils. Personally I like to do 9 or so in a row on the same wort.


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## Lindsay Dive

I really cant believe that I have wasted so much time reading all this shit.

Why the **** would you do this?

For God's sake, there are much smarter people out there telling you what to do, and you try to reinvent the wheel.

And may I add, the beer looks like swill.


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## GrumpyPaul

Wow Lindsay Dive, what can I say...

Thank you for your informative and supportive post. It's so nice when the "much smarter people" help educate the newbies to learn from their rookie mistakes.


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## mofox1

Where did that dislike button get to?

As for reinventing the wheel, I'd hate to be the poor dumb bastard that came up with "brewing in a bag", or putting wort into containers without chilling down to pitching temp as soon as possible.

Good thing there are _people_ like Lindsay Dave to keep us in line. Right, I'm off to go build my coolship!


*Edit: *Sigh.. Moderating my language. Much as name calling seemed appropriate, it is somewhat self demeaning too.


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## Lionman

mofox1 said:


> Where did that dislike button get to?
> 
> As for reinventing the wheel, I'd hate to be the poor dumb bastard that came up with "brewing in a bag", or putting wort into containers without chilling down to pitching temp as soon as possible.
> 
> Good thing there are _people_ like Lindsay Dave to keep us in line. Right, I'm off to go build my coolship!
> 
> 
> *Edit: *Sigh.. Moderating my language. Much as name calling seemed appropriate, it is somewhat self demeaning too.



Damn, I missed it. Was it "pompous twat"? h34r:


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## Liam_snorkel

Hey Lindsay, god doesn't exist. 

Nobody is trying to say that short boils are better for your beer or ideal, but if you're stuck in a position of trading off precious time for slight potential long term stability issues, well shit what's wrong with people making that call?
Think I'll go brew a no-boil Berliner Weisse.


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## MHB

Lindsay Dive said:


> I really cant believe that I have wasted so much time reading all this shit.
> Why the **** would you do this?
> For God's sake, there are much smarter people out there telling you what to do, and you try to reinvent the wheel.
> And may I add, the beer looks like swill.


OK maybe a bit harsh but he's right. 10 Minute boils are generally a really stupid idea, there are a few exceptions, like the above Berliner Weiss where I have seen ONE recipe (see Wheeler and Protz - Brewing European Beers) for a short boil beer.
10 minutes simply isn't long enough to achieve the goals of a boil, it wont denature enough protein - matters for more than just shelf life but that's part of the reason, it wont convert enough SMM to DMS and eject it, along with other unwanted aromas - look up half life reaction, 10 minutes isn't really enough time to ensure wort sterilisation...

Once a wort is boiling, given that you have a sensible sized pot, it really doesn't really need much attention, surely you can find something else to do while the beer is boiling. If you need beer so badly that you cant find time to brew the best beer you can, it might be worth thinking about the possibility that you have some substance abuse issues.
Mark


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## Liam_snorkel

I reckon most people on AHB would qualify (at least in part) for your last point.


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## malt junkie

MHB said:


> If you need beer so badly that you cant find time to brew the best beer you can, it might be worth thinking about the possibility that you have need to automate your brewery or get a BM etal
> Mark


FTFY



I spend most brew days playin with the son, or finishing up the honeydos.


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## Lindsay Dive

MHB said:


> OK maybe a bit harsh but he's right. 10 Minute boils are generally a really stupid idea, there are a few exceptions, like the above Berliner Weiss where I have seen ONE recipe (see Wheeler and Protz - Brewing European Beers) for a short boil beer.
> 10 minutes simply isn't long enough to achieve the goals of a boil, it wont denature enough protein - matters for more than just shelf life but that's part of the reason, it wont convert enough SMM to DMS and eject it, along with other unwanted aromas - look up half life reaction, 10 minutes isn't really enough time to ensure wort sterilisation...
> 
> Once a wort is boiling, given that you have a sensible sized pot, it really doesn't really need much attention, surely you can find something else to do while the beer is boiling. If you need beer so badly that you cant find time to brew the best beer you can, it might be worth thinking about the possibility that you have some substance abuse issues.
> Mark


Correct.


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## GrumpyPaul

It would seem that the all-knowing alumni of AHB that have been contributing their wisdom of late have missed the point that this thread evolved into. Whilst it started from a mistake made about 10minute IPAs it evolved pretty quickly into a thread about short boils. It isn’t saying a 10 minute boil s ok...

Here’s an abridged version of this thread.

PART 1

4 years ago a relatively inexperienced AG brewer mistakenly thought a "10 Minute IPA" with all its hop additions at 10 minutes meant he only had to boil for 10 minutes.

PART 2

A whole bunch of helpful forum members pointed out the mistake and provided plenty of helpful and informative explanation and the OP learned a lto without being made to feel stupid or that his beer looked like swill.

PART 3

An enlightening discussion ensued between a number of more experienced brewers about the science and black magic of brewing in relation to the conversion of SMM to DSM that happens in the boil, various types of grain that are suited (or not) to shorter boils. This all led to lots of sharing of knowledge, discussion of what circumstances you could do a shorter than 60 min boil. General consensus was under the right circumstances a min if 30 minute boil was possible.

There is even a very clear post in their that says something to the effect - "Contrary to the thread title - this thread is about short boils NOT 10 minute boils"

PART 4 

A number of brewers went off and did a few experimental brews with 30 minute boils and found that it was feasible.

PART 5 

The thread stayed fairly dormant for a number of years until recently. Now it seems that despite their valued wisdom and technical contribution a few experienced brewers have missed the point that this thread ISNT recommending a 10 minute boils it OK and have jumped on board peppery their technical advice with some fairly abrupt comments that some have taken as less than helpful. 

Message is fine "You need to boil for more than 10 minutes' - the delivery comes across a bit arrogant.


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## droid

Having a laugh at someone else's expense is unhelpful. If I told some kid at footy training that what they did was pretty stupid, they probably wouldn't turn up next week. Being encouraging, being positive is much better for participation in any regard.

The one-liner that doesn't offer any different thought or solution isn't very helpful.


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## MHB

What intimidates me about brewing is that I know just about enough to know how little I do know.

But brewing like most endeavours is underpinned by hard science, take building a brick building, with a big enough supply of bricks you can build a hell of a lot of different buildings, there is an upper limit on height, go any higher and bricks (or more likely the mortar) will be crushed by the weight above - call this a constraint, if you want to go higher you need to take steps to prevent the whole thing falling down.

You can make unboiled beer, or boil for 10,30,60,90 or even longer, in every case there are consequences, the science of brewing gives us some pretty good indications of what they will be. They are however real, bare in mind that boiling is as the biggest single energy cost in brewing very intensively researched.
Modern breweries using the best malt in history still considers 90minutes de-rigueur for direct fired kettles, 60 minutes or so minimum for steam jacketed kettles with internal calandria and 45 minutes in multimillion dollar merlin or other variable pressure kettles. Don't worry 90-120 minutes is called fast lautering.

BIAB works because it works within the constraints established by understanding how mashing and wort separation work, it too has constraints, depending on which of the many bastard daughters of the original form we are discussing.

Feel free to do what ever the hell you like in your brewery, there are any number of choices you can make but every choice has consequences.
Mark


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## Lionman

It's different for commercial breweries though as they need a stable beer that will survive many months of shelf life and probably being mistreated along the way coming in and out of cold storage. Its worth it for them to spend more on production to decrease the risk of a customer receiving a spoiled product.

For a home brewer who is kegging beer that may well last only a couple of days through to a couple of weeks, stability might not be the biggest concern. If the beer tastes good, I can't see the issue in bending the rules of commercial brewing. Horses for courses.

If you're planning on storing you beer longer term, if you have many kegs on tap or many batches in bottles on the go at once, or if you are planning on ageing the beer then obviously you wouldn't sacrifice stability to save a few minutes of boiling.


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## MHB

Puss
I know people here keep insisting that the only down side to higher protein/under boiling is their misinterpretation of "Colloidal Stability" being purely about the look of the beer.

Wrong and seriously wrong at that! Just to touch on a couple of the reasons
During the boil tannins combine with protein, Tannins (polyphenols) from both malt and hops have harsh unpleasant flavours, these aren't reduced well in a short boil.
High residual protein will condense as the wort cools, this will strip hop products from the beer, reducing both bitterness and hop taste.
High protein in the ferment will impede the yeast, its called yeast coating, and has most of the negative effects attributed to under pitching.
Increased levels of high molecular weight protein will interfere with head formation and retention.
Too much protein in solution interferes with your ability to taste the beer, causing flavours to be described as muted or muddy.

I could spend a lot of time pointing to good reasons why a longer boil makes the beer better, not a lot of point really if people aren't listening.
I guess its just that I find wilful stupidity make me gag a bit, what was that old one that I heard form one of Trumps science advisors "Its good to keep an open mind - but not so open your brains fall out", been used before and paraphrased often but it still stands true.
Mark


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## manticle

It is worthwhile because for every detractor, there's at least one other person listening and learning.


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## manticle

GrumpyPaul said:


> It would seem that the all-knowing alumni of AHB that have been contributing their wisdom of late have missed the point that this thread evolved into. Whilst it started from a mistake made about 10minute IPAs it evolved pretty quickly into a thread about short boils. It isn’t saying a 10 minute boil s ok...[/size]
> [/size]
> Here’s an abridged version of this thread.[/size]
> [/size]
> PART 1[/size]
> [/size]
> 4 years ago a relatively inexperienced AG brewer mistakenly thought a "10 Minute IPA" with all its hop additions at 10 minutes meant he only had to boil for 10 minutes.[/size]
> [/size]
> PART 2[/size]
> [/size]
> A whole bunch of helpful forum members pointed out the mistake and provided plenty of helpful and informative explanation and the OP learned a lto without being made to feel stupid or that his beer looked like swill.[/size]
> [/size]
> PART 3[/size]
> [/size]
> An enlightening discussion ensued between a number of more experienced brewers about the science and black magic of brewing in relation to the conversion of SMM to DSM that happens in the boil, various types of grain that are suited (or not) to shorter boils. This all led to lots of sharing of knowledge, discussion of what circumstances you could do a shorter than 60 min boil. General consensus was under the right circumstances a min if 30 minute boil was possible.[/size]
> [/size]
> There is even a very clear post in their that says something to the effect - "Contrary to the thread title - this thread is about short boils NOT 10 minute boils"[/size]
> [/size]
> PART 4 [/size]
> [/size]
> A number of brewers went off and did a few experimental brews with 30 minute boils and found that it was feasible.[/size]
> [/size]
> PART 5 [/size]
> [/size]
> The thread stayed fairly dormant for a number of years until recently. Now it seems that despite their valued wisdom and technical contribution a few experienced brewers have missed the point that this thread ISNT recommending a 10 minute boils it OK and have jumped on board peppery their technical advice with some fairly abrupt comments that some have taken as less than helpful. [/size]
> [/size]
> Message is fine "You need to boil for more than 10 minutes' - the delivery comes across a bit arrogant.[/size]


I think (hope) that the main point is not castigating you for your readily admitted error, but more the number of people who are simply taking away 'yay, 10 minute, yeah beer, I'm gunna' from the whole discussion without considering the wealth of info available on the benefits from properly boiling. When that's pointed out, people respond 'yeah **** you, BIAB works'.

Try a 3 hr boil on a doppelbock or wee heavy made as a smash. Fuckin' amazing. Boils rock.


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## Mardoo

Agreed. My butt is covered in boils.


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## Blind Dog

Well f*** me sideways.

An honest mistake gets turned into the holy grail of home brewers pushing the boundaries.

I'd have to agree with GP's summary, but have to disagree with the arrogance comment (well mainly). Mark made a pretty gentle and respectful request (with links to some of the best free literature there is on making better beer) to understand why a 10 minute boil isn't likely to be the best option before heading down that road. And yet still a 10 minute boil is apparently a good idea.

Sometimes I wonder why he bothers, but every time he does I'm grateful.


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## mtb

I think the issue lies more with comments like "And may I add, the beer looks like swill". That was completely unnecessary.


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## Blind Dog

Hence the (well mainly) in my post.


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## MHB

mtb said:


> I think the issue lies more with comments like "And may I add, the beer looks like swill". That was completely unnecessary.


It is also an accurate description of what (admittedly worst case) is likely to be the case. Like it or not people drink with there eyes, nose and mouth, not just one of them.
Even if you don't care what your beer looks like, I'm sure your friends will notice.
Mark


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## Liam_snorkel

I take it you're not a fan of NEIPA?


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## Liam_snorkel

MHB said:


> Puss
> I know people here keep insisting that the only down side to higher protein/under boiling is their misinterpretation of "Colloidal Stability" being purely about the look of the beer.
> 
> Wrong and seriously wrong at that! Just to touch on a couple of the reasons
> During the boil tannins combine with protein, Tannins (polyphenols) from both malt and hops have harsh unpleasant flavours, these aren't reduced well in a short boil. taste is subjective, this may not be an issue for some beers/people.
> High residual protein will condense as the wort cools, this will strip hop products from the beer, reducing both bitterness and hop taste. this can be accounted for.
> High protein in the ferment will impede the yeast, its called yeast coating, and has most of the negative effects attributed to under pitching. so pitch more yeast.
> Increased levels of high molecular weight protein will interfere with head formation and retention. this may not be a concern for some brewers.
> Too much protein in solution interferes with your ability to taste the beer, causing flavours to be described as muted or muddy.  taste is subjective, this may not be an issue for some beers/people.
> .
> I could spend a lot of time pointing to good reasons why a longer boil makes the beer better, not a lot of point really if people aren't listening. people ARE listening, this is all useful information.
> I guess its just that I find wilful stupidity make me gag a bit, what was that old one that I heard form one of Trumps science advisors "Its good to keep an open mind - but not so open your brains fall out", been used before and paraphrased often but it still stands true. Nobodies brain is going to fall out due to drinking ugly beer. although I wouldn't be surprised if you had an aneurysm at this rate.
> Mark


Nobody is trying to refute any of the knowledge that you've shared. Comments like "wilful stupidity" aren't helpful. If someone is happy to have poorer head retention, ugly beer, and reduced shelf stability, big whoop? They will have no grounds to complain because it was a decision they made, and it only affects them.


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## Parks

Not to mention science and best practice don't necessarily correspond to an observable impact in the final product.


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## MHB

Parks said:


> Not to mention science and best practice don't necessarily correspond to an observable impact in the final product.


Incorrect - they do, its just a question of whether or not you notice or care.




Liam_snorkel said:


> Nobody is trying to refute any of the knowledge that you've shared. Comments like "wilful stupidity" aren't helpful. If someone is happy to have poorer head retention, ugly beer, and reduced shelf stability, big whoop? They will have no grounds to complain because it was a decision they made, and it only affects them.


Actually I will stay with willfully stupid, and no I don't agree if for no other reason that one of my favourite hobbies (brewing) is often regarded as an activity undertaken by grumpy old men working on getting as pissed as possible as cheap as they can...
This is something I have spent a fair fraction of my like trying to change.

It only takes a little knowledge and care to make world class beer at home, for mine, brew the best beer you can. I pay no attention to price and just focus on making the best beer possible, it will still cost a fraction of what an equivalent commercial beer would. To me its a matter of self respect and pride, when I do something I do the best job of it that I can - no exceptions.
We clearly have a different set of goals, I wont be having an aneurism, at most a vague feeling of pity (tempered with a touch of contempt) for people who place more value on the alcohol than the quality of what they make and drink.
Mark


----------



## Parks

MHB said:


> ...its just a question of whether or not you notice...
> 
> Mark


ie, whether or not you observe it.

If you only brew for yourself why would you care if you get the results you desire?

I personally would *never* do a 10min boil but I often do things not "best practice" because I know what I can, and can not, get away with after a few hundred batches. It's not up to you to decide how others enjoy the hobby.


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## Liam_snorkel

^ this.

Belittling people does nothing to help your crusade, MHB.


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## kaiserben

MHB said:


> what was that old one that I heard form one of Trumps science advisors "Its good to keep an open mind - but not so open your brains fall out", been used before and paraphrased often but it still stands true.
> Mark


CSIRO's Chief Scientist (Alan Finkel) used a similar line to that dingbat and climate science denier Senator Malcolm Roberts during Senate estimates yesterday, when Roberts asked if it was important that scientists keep an open mind when examining climate data.


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## angus_grant

MHB said:


> brew the best beer you can.


Or able to.

It has been mentioned a few times in this thread about young kids and being extremely time poor. That applies to me as well. 

Have I done a few 30 min ipas? Yes. 

Did I have expectations of it being as good a full boil ipa? No

Was I making it to get alcoholzzzz? Not my primary reason 

Was I making it so I had some decent beer on tap given my time constraints? Yes 

Is a 30 min ipa a shortcut? Yes. 

Will I brew some more 30 min ipas despite excellent advice to the contrary? Probably.

A softly softly approach to educating and guiding is always more palatable than passing judgement from lofty horses.


----------



## angus_grant

Maybe an admin should change the title of the thread to 30 min ipas..


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## GrumpyPaul

angus_grant said:


> Maybe an admin should change the title of the thread to 30 min ipas..


Its my thread - I hereby request admins chnage the title to...

"10 Minute IPA does not equal 10 minute boils - a four year huff and puff discussion about the merits of shorter boil times"


----------

