# Why Do Kit Brewers Try To Emulate Brewery Beers



## masculator002 (16/6/09)

I cannot understand why kit brewers try to emulate brewery beers I.E. little creatures pale, james squires amber etc. The only way for a kit brewer to even get close to these truly is by ditching the kit. Kit beers are hopped malt extract, most commercial breweries and manufacturers of kits use pride of ringwood hops, at THEIR set rates to produce something which is going to be brown and bitter. Granted some are browner and more bitter than others but how many of you can tell me exactly how many grams of hops were used to make that can of home brew extract? Granted different yeasts make different flavours appear as do different fermentation times. but you are still relying on coopers, wander or if you are really taking a gamble fosters group with their cascade kits, to give you something which will be consistent (or in the cascade case "uninfected".) Also granted, many of us cannot afford either the time involved, or the setup cost to go to all grain brewing, or have the knowledge of which hops and grains to use. However there is an intermediary which will save some of the labour of all grain and give a much greater amount of control than kit brewing, which takes little more effort than kit brewing.


This is the true world of EXTRACT BREWING. 

In your home brew shops you will see near the cans of kit beers UNHOPPED malt extract and dry malt extract, all of which are available in different grades. i.e. light, wheat, amber, dark. you will also see in your supermarket next to the honey an extract called saunders malt extract (I will use this in an example later) and in all decent homebrew shops you will see sachets of hops. These are all you need to produce a beer far and away better than any kit could possibly produce. Plus you will be following the german purity law! For those who don't know it, beer is only to contain malt, hops, yeast and water. 


This brings me back a couple of years or more to my first experience of brewing kit beers without using a kit to do it. To my knowledge some of my recipes are still on the website of aussiehomebrewing (this is not a typo it is a site but not this site.) (look it up and say gday to les for me.) Any way back to the topic. I had been brewing kit beers again after taking a few year hyatus due to travelling and such, and was missing the quality and control I had seen with brewing all grain for many a year prior to the aforementioned. Not to mention the fact that I had spent $400 plus on cascade kits brewed with good quality malt extracts, which were good for nothing more than pouring on the garden. (this led to many debates between myself and fosters group during which Garibaldi smallgoods was mentioned more than once.) but to cut a long story short I thought I would search for a decent UNHOPPED malt extract locally available, as the nearest homebrew shop is about 1 to 1 and a quarter hours away, I found SAUNDERS!!!! My first brew with it was a bit of trial and error I had a few different hops which I had been using as additions to kits, and a few good yeasts including us56 now called us 05, and s23 and w34/70, I also had the knowledge of several years of all grain brewing to know roughly how much hops to use in a 19 litre brew (there are reasons for this size brew which I will leave you to discover.) any hows one of my first brews was a light mead ale (Pretty much half saunders malt, half honey, some saaz and some cascade, us 56 yeast 18 litres total volume) and it was kick ass in comparison to any kit beer I have ever produced. I had not tried to emulate anything I had ever tried on the shelf and in all honesty it was better than any beer I had had off the shelf (and even the connoiseurial mates I have consider me more of a connoiseur than they would ever be.) It was all bar as good as brewing all grain, and it had taken about 15 or 20 minutes longer than brewing a kit. The hour spent boiling the hops in a three stage boil allowed sufficient time so that when the hops were ready I had sterilised the fermenter, had the malt extract ready and warmed for pouring, yeast ready for pitching and it was all simple.

I now compare commercial beers as being a cheap/expensive immitation of what I brew. I.E. fat yak or moobrew pale ale was about 3 years behind when I had done some thing very similar but they still weren't quite as good as my APA, what I am trying to say is get out there do a bit of research and brew something of your own because you can brew easliy better than what you can buy, and better than what a kit can give you


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## Cube (16/6/09)

And your point is?


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

Cube said:


> And your point is?



The point is why try to emulate when you can create something better!something which is your own which has the flavours and etc. which you DESIRE


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## KGB (16/6/09)

Cool story.


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## Gavo (16/6/09)

Cube said:


> And your point is?



I think this is it.



masculator002 said:


> get out there do a bit of research and brew something of your own because you can brew easily better than what you can buy, and better than what a kit can give you



Gavo.


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

gavo said:


> I think this is it.
> 
> 
> 
> Gavo.



you got it gavo


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## drsmurto (16/6/09)

If i wasnt trying to find a clone recipe for JSGA as a kit brewer i would never have found brewing forums on the internet and very likely never moved to AG. 

I think its how most, if not all kit brewers start. 

i think its great they jump on here for advice as to how to improve their 'clone' beers. Its usually the first step in a slippery slope. :lol:


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## Goofinder (16/6/09)

If all you know is mainstream beer, how are you meant to know that you can brew something better?


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## ah_glenno (16/6/09)

for me, attempting clones of commercial beers is a way of improving my early skills as a brewer, because i have a goal to aim for and i can compare the end result to the original. This allows me to make changes and experiment with my technique while i still figure out what extract does what and which method results in which flavours


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## discoloop (16/6/09)

Can't decide whether the OP is a rant or manifesto....  

Fair call about the possibilities opened up by working with unhopped extracts. I do think kits very much have their place, though. I brew using extracts. Sometimes they're bittered, sometimes they're not. To me, they're both just ingredients. To someone who goes beyond the straight K&K option, a kit is basically just a more complicated version of an unhopped extract. "Pimping" a kit is a convenient way of creating a more complex brew. 

A simple extract brew could contain, say, 3kg of amber lme and a several hop additions to X IBU. If you replace some extract with a hopped kit you:
1. save money because you don't need to use hops for bitterness
2. add a complexity to the flavour of your brew that you couldn't do so simply with hops and extract alone

I'm not arguing in favour of or against kits, but I would say they have their place for more advanced extract brewers. You just have to know how to use them.


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## Gavo (16/6/09)

Interesting part for me was that I had little experience with anything other than megabrews, you know the common ones. I went of the recipe DB and made mods from reading hop descriptions etc. Just last week I finally had a chance to get a few singles which included Wicked Elf PA, Little Creatures PA, Murrays Nervarna PA and a couple of others. What I found was that I was brewing what I liked better than these samples. Sure try to emulate commercial beers but as DrSmurto said, this can and most likely will be the beginning of the slippery slope that HB has to offer.

Cheers
Gavo.


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

DrSmurto said:


> If i wasnt trying to find a clone recipe for JSGA as a kit brewer i would never have found brewing forums on the internet and very likely never moved to AG.
> 
> I think its how most, if not all kit brewers start.
> 
> i think its great they jump on here for advice as to how to improve their 'clone' beers. Its usually the first step in a slippery slope. :lol:



good point, however I had been brewing for 18 years before I found this site and had done at least 6 years of that all grain brewing. What I am trying to show with this post is that there is an intermediary step where people can have their own input into what the outcome will be and yeah fair enough they want to produce something of a similar style to xxxx, vb, squires amber, bombardier or what ever, but they can do it and take ownership of the beer they have produced without it becoming just another "clone" of something which can be bought off of the shelf, and get a bit dissapointed when it doesn't come out tasting exactly right. If I WANTED to drink moo brews dollar a sip stout I would go and buy it, but I can brew something similar with far more control and refine it more to my tastes quite simply at home and far easier than trying to start with a BREW KIT. I agree that the recipe db is a great place to start to get ideas as to what will work and what wont, as do the hop and yeast listings on the craft brewer website, And yes I agree that it is great that they jump on here for advice and this is what I am trying to give.


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## tcraig20 (16/6/09)

I dont think there is any real mystery as to why kit brewers want to emulate commercial products. 

Incipient brewer though process "I like to drink X beer. X beer costs $40 a carton. X beer costs too much. Homebrew can make 2.5 cartons for $30. I like to drink X beer. I want to make home brew that tastes like X beer".

Hopefully, although not always, we outgrow that.


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## chappo1970 (16/6/09)

Cube said:


> And your point is?



ROFL! :lol: 

Because if they didn't lie like a dead snake you wouldn't get sucked in OP. No offence but I reckon 99.9% of us start our trying to replicate a commercial beer. But then you discover aroma, flavour and taste and the whole world of beer turns on it's head for you so it ain't that bad.... is it?  

Chap Chap


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## Online Brewing Supplies (16/6/09)

A reference point is a good thing when you start brewing.It helps you to define where you are heading.So it a good thing to try to replicate, even if its VB.As your taste experiences grow you will try to replicate more complex beers.You cant master the good beers with out the experience of less complicated brews..I once thought Corona was easy to reproduce,I was wrong. I still cant get it right! Looks simple but its not.I am talking AG but I think the question/answer is relevant.
GB


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## Screwtop (16/6/09)

masculator002 said:


> I cannot understand why kit brewers try to emulate brewery beers I.E. little creatures pale, james squires amber etc.




Simple, kit brewers are new brewers, they have discovered home brewing and want to make their favourite commercial beers at home.

Many of us have gone on to discover beers other than the megaswill we used to drink before we were enlightened, now many of us have a desire to make those beers. The popularity of publications such as 150 Classic Clone Recipes attest to this as do many podcasts such as Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmers "Can You Brew It" where the challenge is to clone a commercial beer. Kit, K&K, Extract, Partial or Ag we all strive to produce a beer that we have tasted previously, even the BJCP guidelines attest to this, on a broader scale we want to emulate beer styles.

Screwy


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## Gavo (16/6/09)

And now the trick is to try and brew a style that the average Joe/Visitor will like and be better than the mainstream commercial offerings.

Gavo.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (16/6/09)

Screwtop said:


> Simple, kit brewers are new brewers, they have discovered home brewing and want to make their favourite commercial beers at home.
> 
> Many of us have gone on to discover beers other than the megaswill we used to drink before we were enlightened, now many of us have a desire to make those beers. The popularity of publications such as 150 Classic Clone Recipes attest to this as do many podcasts such as Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmers "Can You Brew It" where the challenge is to clone a commercial beer. Kit, K&K, Extract, Partial or Ag we all strive to produce a beer that we have tasted previously, even the BJCP guidelines attest to this, on a broader scale we want to emulate beer styles.
> 
> Screwy


Dam it.I have to agree with you.
GB


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## drsmurto (16/6/09)

masculator002 said:


> good point, however I had been brewing for 18 years before I found this site and had done at least 6 years of that all grain brewing. What I am trying to show with this post is that there is an intermediary step where people can have their own input into what the outcome will be and yeah fair enough they want to produce something of a similar style to xxxx, vb, squires amber, bombardier or what ever, but they can do it and take ownership of the beer they have produced without it becoming just another "clone" of something which can be bought off of the shelf, and get a bit dissapointed when it doesn't come out tasting exactly right. If I WANTED to drink moo brews dollar a sip stout I would go and buy it, but I can brew something similar with far more control and refine it more to my tastes quite simply at home and far easier than trying to start with a BREW KIT. I agree that the recipe db is a great place to start to get ideas as to what will work and what wont, as do the hop and yeast listings on the craft brewer website, And yes I agree that it is great that they jump on here for advice and this is what I am trying to give.



I'd wager that you would be in the minority.

The vast majority of new brewers on this forum would be people who have just acquired a homebrew kit and want to know what the hell to do with it.

As for extract brewing, its not new. Your essay reads as though as its the latest and greatest trend in homebrewing.....


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## mattcarty (16/6/09)

Screwtop said:


> Simple, kit brewers are new brewers, they have discovered home brewing and want to make their favourite commercial beers at home.



indeed 

myself i only discovered a world beyond K&K recently and this site has helped open my eyes to a whole new world. if i find a beer i like i try to get a similar recipe to learn what ingredients create what taste then once i know that i can experiment and create my own recipes without as ret of a risk of having a complete disaster

the unfortunate thing is many people on the forum forget that brewing isnt a dash race to the finish line, i have lost track of how many brewers have asked when im going to give up kits and bits and extracts and do all grain, answer is, when im bloody well good and ready, in my own time. if kit brewers want to copy known beers then good on them, you dont have to drink it but let them do as they wish

i agree with the rant, do your own thing and find your own style but ya gotta learn the foundations first and some people do that by trying to emulate known beers.

think of your favourite musicians, do you think they never played cover songs or tried to emulate their musical heroes sound before finding there own and creating something new?

cheers
carty


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

I had a feeling that this would open up an in depth debate and I think Gavo and chappo have the best grounding so far of what I am trying to say, will be good to see what becomes of this over the next while.


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

Goofinder said:


> If all you know is mainstream beer, how are you meant to know that you can brew something better?



by experimenting!!!


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## mwd (16/6/09)

Troll Horn, Troll Horn,

Just looking to stir the pot. IMHO :super: 

Brew what you like. If you like LCPA why not try to emulate it. Cannot see any problem with that.

I am not a beer snob got some cans of VB sitting in the fridge here.

( No comments needed ). h34r: 

95% of recipes listed are for "Clones" whether they are better or worse than the commercial counterpart is neither here nor there.

Don't feed the trolls forum trolls


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## Cocko (16/6/09)

matt carty said:


> indeed
> 
> think of your favourite musicians, do you think they never played cover songs or tried to emulate their musical heroes sound before finding there own and creating something new?
> 
> ...



Nailed it. :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (16/6/09)

On the one hand I'm curious as to why it would be so confusing that new brewers start with an idea tha they might be able to make economic, easy versions of their favourite kits. Sure extract and grain brewing give better results but everybody starts somewhere. I know I did and I haven't stopped.

On the other hand, I want to know if those who defend that beginning point (which we've all been at) have ever been guilty of advising someone wanting to make a tooheys dry clone to mix 1 part cat's piss with two parts bleach and ferment in 70 deg oven for 2 days.


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## ah_glenno (16/6/09)

gavo said:


> And now the trick is to try and brew a style that the average Joe/Visitor will like and be better than the mainstream commercial offerings.
> 
> Gavo.



+1


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## Scruffy (16/6/09)

You're called Tom, you're into Scientology, and brewing and I claim my $5 worth of PVC hose... 

& what's wrong with trying to make a Timothy Taylor Landlord (better)?


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

manticle said:


> On the one hand I'm curious as to why it would be so confusing that new brewers start with an idea tha they might be able to make economic, easy versions of their favourite kits. Sure extract and grain brewing give better results but everybody starts somewhere. I know I did and I haven't stopped.
> 
> On the other hand, I want to know if those who defend that beginning point (which we've all been at) have ever been guilty of advising someone wanting to make a tooheys dry clone to mix 1 part cat's piss with two parts bleach and ferment in 70 deg oven for 2 days.



nice call manticle


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## Online Brewing Supplies (16/6/09)

Cocko said:


> Nailed it. :icon_cheers:


 :icon_offtopic: Yeh all but a few of the best muso's are dead drugs/alcohol.PF still rocken.Sorry for the younger crowd thats Pink Floyd.Wish you were here.
GB


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

Scruffy said:


> You're called Tom, you're into Scientology, and brewing and I claim my $5 worth of PVC hose...
> 
> & what's wrong with trying to make a Timothy Taylor Landlord (better)?



exactly (BETTER)!


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## chappo1970 (16/6/09)

Simple answer is type "clone" into the search engine.... heaps of pages huh? Lots and lots of them  

Of course we all start out wanting to clone a commercial beer and I see nothing wrong with it.


Chappo


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> :icon_offtopic: Yeh all but a few of the best muso's are dead drugs/alcohol.PF still rocken.Sorry for the younger crowd thats Pink Floyd.Wish you were here.
> GB



shame Nick Mason died about 6 months ago of cancer. REST IN PEACE NICK I too am a fan


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## Screwtop (16/6/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Dam it.I have to agree with you.
> GB




Sorrry GB :lol:


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## KGB (16/6/09)

Wow, the posts are flying thick and fast!

I know what you're saying masculator002, but as others have said, n00bs brew to make commercial clones because thats what they know, thats what they think beer should taste like and they don't know any better. For me at least, half the fun of home brewing is experimenting and trying different styles, flavours, hops, malts and methods and seeing how I go. Most of them are pretty decent now, some have been brilliant and a couple have been pretty ordinary. Apart from the old Corona clone to please the crowds, I don't know if I've brewed many beers more than once.


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## Phoney (16/6/09)

Why does it bother you so much what other people are brewing and drinking? Live and let live I say.

I only started brewing 6 months ago, If I had 18 years experience like you then sure I would be creative and make my own recipes based on what I like. But it's a very steep learning curve when you're a newbie. I had NFI what hops, steeping grains, malts etc did to a beer a few months back, all I knew was what commercial brews I liked and so I wanted to make something half as good as those. If it was even better, well then that'd be a bonus.

I guess all you can do is encourage people to master the art and, when they're confident and ready, make the progress to the next step ie: k&k > extract > partial > ag.

no need to lambast them or scorn at them for wanting to reproduce what they like, it's all about baby steps in my opinion 

-my 2c


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## Online Brewing Supplies (16/6/09)

Screwtop said:


> Sorrry GB :lol:


We share the PF factor.Going to drop it on now and relax.
GB


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

DrSmurto said:


> I'd wager that you would be in the minority.
> 
> The vast majority of new brewers on this forum would be people who have just acquired a homebrew kit and want to know what the hell to do with it.
> 
> As for extract brewing, its not new. Your essay reads as though as its the latest and greatest trend in homebrewing.....



not trying to make it out as the newest and greatest smurto just trying to encourage some of the newer brewers to think outside thi box and try to create what they desire/imagine to be their desired beer.


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## Barley Belly (16/6/09)

Anyone got an AG clone for the Non alcoholic Export Light you could buy from Bilo in the 80's????

Been tryin and I'll be [email protected]#$ed if I can replicate it


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## Cocko (16/6/09)

masculator002 said:


> shame Nick Mason died about 6 months ago of cancer. REST IN PEACE NICK I too am a fan



Maybe OT but further along that analogy,

We all played wish you were hear before writing our own song, did Dave Gilmour learn someone else's songs before he wrote wish you here? I would be betting yes!

Influence leads you, same goes with all hobbies I would think.... So wouldn't trying to 'clone' a beer lead you to making your own in the end? What kind of beer would you brew if you had no reference point for it... maybe the best, then again maybe not...


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## chappo1970 (16/6/09)

manticle said:


> On the other hand, I want to know if those who defend that beginning point (which we've all been at) have ever been guilty of advising someone wanting to make a tooheys dry clone to mix 1 part cat's piss with two parts bleach and ferment in 70 deg oven for 2 days.


FLAME SUIT ON LADIES!

Guilty as charged officer! Sure disguised behind some humour but I certainly have. Was it wrong? Yes. Would I do it again? Maybe? Having care in making a clone is a demonstration of your understanding of this craft. It's that bloody simple. I was there not too long ago but I researched and looked for answers first. Blantantly jumping on this forum and having no regard for the craft and asking for a clone recipe rips my knickers. What's the point if you don't have even the simple things down pat like temp control? So I avoid those these days. Don't get me wrong I'm happy to jump in and give advice where I can but sometimes there some that need to fail first to learn.

Chappo


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

Thankyou all for your interesting comments, and to all of you kit brewers out there I must say that I was not meaning any insult or criticism, after all if it was not for the desire to create something good along the lines of some of the beers I truly enjoyed I probably not have gotten to the point where flavour and aroma became a big thing to me. What I am trying to say is that you can do it with out a commercial kit just as easily as you can with a kit and that you shouldn't be afraid to create something of your own. Be it something that is passionfruity like squires hop thief with the maltyness of an Oettinger and the yeastyness of a firestone or the bitterness of an arrogant bastard ale, Make it your own and dont be afraid to try using things which are frowned upon by others.


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## marksfish (16/6/09)

is all this pink floyd talk got anything to do with the dark side?


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

Chappo said:


> FLAME SUIT ON LADIES!
> 
> Guilty as charged officer! Sure disguised behind some humour but I certainly have. Was it wrong? Yes. Would I do it again? Maybe? Having care in making a clone is a demonstration of your understanding of this craft. It's that bloody simple. I was there not too long ago but I researched and looked for answers first. Blantantly jumping on this forum and having no regard for the craft and asking for a clone recipe rips my knickers. What's the point if you don't have even the simple things down pat like temp control? So I avoid those these days. Don't get me wrong I'm happy to jump in and give advice where I can but sometimes there some that need to fail first to learn.
> 
> Chappo




Agreed chappo some times it is better to fail trying something blind than to be handed the cards and still not achieve the desired results or worse still not learning from the knowledge gleaned.


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## mattcarty (16/6/09)

marksfish said:


> is all this pink floyd talk got anything to do with the dark side?



damn now i want to listen to pink floyd while drinking stout.....so maybe ill just go do that then!


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## Online Brewing Supplies (16/6/09)

marksfish said:


> is all this pink floyd talk got anything to do with the dark side?


Good music + good beer, what else do you need ? The dark side is a natural progression.
GB


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## manticle (16/6/09)

masculator002 said:


> not trying to make it out as the newest and greatest smurto just trying to encourage some of the newer brewers to think outside thi box and try to create what they desire/imagine to be their desired beer.


They need to learn what the box is before they can think outside it though.

I think phoneyhuh's point was a good one and from the perspective of someone who, similar to myself, has not been brewing long but has learnt a shiteload in a short space of time.

I didn't want to make a VB clone when I started brewing on account of having been a fan of far better beers since my early twenties but I wouldn't have even thought I could get close to my favourite styles if I hadn't started with a can of cooper 'lager' and a pack of brewing sugar two years ago.

I understand what you mean but if a new guy read this, they might feel shat on rather than encouraged. 

A good chef can make a great custard, some lovely pastry and turn it into a large croquembouche but that shouldn't mean they should rubbish a home cook's attempt at trying to make a chocolate eclair with cooking chocolate and readymade custard. Help them do it, help them do it better and then send them on their confident way to make large, custard laden choux pastry delicacies.

Extract is great but people find out about extract through kits and (often) wanting to make their kits taste like their favourite beer. For some cheap beer might be enough. For others (like myself and undoubtedly many replying to this thread) it's the beginning of a beautiful obsession: making good beer you enjoy.


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## manticle (16/6/09)

Chappo said:


> ........ researched and looked for answers first. Blantantly jumping on this forum and having no regard for the craft and asking for a clone recipe rips my knickers.
> 
> Chappo



Furry nuts.
Fairy muff
faar enouff oi me boy arrh
I see your point.

I also have torn panties.


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## Scruffy (16/6/09)

Chappo said:


> Don't get me wrong I'm happy to jump in and give advice...



Any idea with this mate?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (16/6/09)

matt carty said:


> damn now i want to listen to pink floyd while drinking stout.....so maybe ill just go do that then!


Get your fix  Going to have this at my wake.
GB


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

manticle said:


> They need to learn what the box is before they can think outside it though.
> 
> I think phoneyhuh's point was a good one and from the perspective of someone who, similar to myself, has not been brewing long but has learnt a shiteload in a short space of time.
> 
> ...




And that is what I am trying to do manticle encourage them to make something good. If someone wants to go out and brew something that is 10%alcohol and has no desire for anything other than to get pissed they can buy a kit and 2 kg of white sugar, I am just trying to let the newer brewers understand how easy it is to do something different and that they can create flavours they had never imagined through a bit of research and wise decision making. Who would have ever thought that you could have made a beer that tastes like grapefruit or passionfruit just using malt hops water and yeast? or chocolate and raisins? and more to the point almost as cheaply and simply as the kit with the 2kgs of white sugar!


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## manticle (16/6/09)

@masculator:

Sure, I get what you're trying to do and I agree with the point. It's what I'm constantly trying to do with my own beer.

It's just that if someone pops their head up wanting to know a simple thing and is rubbished with all grain or general beer snobbery, they may retreat instead of giving it a red hot go.

My introduction to this forum was asking if it would be ok if I kept my Brigalow Ginger beer after I broke my hydrometer in it.

I'm still here, and I'm now partial mashing, designing recipes and constantly thinking about better beer but even I have to admit I started as a nuff-nuff. I happen to be fairly thick skinned, particularly where the internet is concerned but I can imagine a brewer popping up and asking " how do I make xxx", being met with derision and either returning to buying megaswill or making cheaparse homebrand 'lager' with 3 kg of sugar and getting mashed every night.

We want to encourage people away from that (which is the point of your thread) but gently will be more effective than "OMG WHY MUST YOU DO THAT YOU IGNORANT PLEBIAN"?

I never thought I'd be encouraging people to be polite on the internet. Get stuffed the lot of you.

Bastards.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (16/6/09)

manticle said:


> @masculator:
> 
> Sure, I get what you're trying to do and I agree with the point. It's what I'm constantly trying to do with my own beer.
> 
> ...


Like your choice of words and thinking.True passion, thats what its about!
GB


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

manticle said:


> @masculator:
> 
> Sure, I get what you're trying to do and I agree with the point. It's what I'm constantly trying to do with my own beer.
> 
> ...




Sorry manticle as I said earlier my intention was not to insult or deride the begginers just to open a debate about how and where they can step up and improve upon what they are doing and encourage them not to be afraid to try new things. goodnight all. At the risk of further putting my foot in my mouth and possibly insulting people I will leave now.


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## manticle (16/6/09)

No need for apologies mate. It generated a passionate discussion with lots of good viewpoints being put forward.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (16/6/09)

masculator002 said:


> Sorry manticle as I said earlier my intention was not to insult or deride the begginers just to open a debate about how and where they can step up and improve upon what they are doing and encourage them not to be afraid to try new things. goodnight all. At the risk of further putting my foot in my mouth and possibly insulting people I will leave now.


Your ok, cant see any problems with your comments.
GB


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## masculator002 (16/6/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Your ok, cant see any problems with your comments.
> GB



Thanks GB


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## Pollux (17/6/09)

I started brewing due to the cost of commercial beer. While I didn't personally try to clone anything, I can understand those who do.

Since then I have moved on to AG and still try to clone commercial beers I like (i.e. Fat Yak) but tweak them to my taste.


Was a cool story, lacks a dragon though.


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## petesbrew (17/6/09)

I must suffer from ADD, Masculator, cos I really had trouble reading the OP... Once a paragraph gets beyond 3 lines I have trouble staying on track!

As already stated, Who hasn't tried to copy a beer they like? Isn't one of the fave recipes on this site Dr Smurto's Golden Ale? Not that I've made it... yet.
Not having a go, just making a point. (and I confess, I only skimmed over page 2 & 3 comments).

My first step towards flavour was one of those mailouts from Coopers, with a few recipes on it, namely the Buxom Blonde
That trip to Country Brewer for the Goldings teabag was an eye opener.... and the beer was fantastic.


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## Scruffy (17/6/09)

I'm doing a brew today - I'm moved by the following sentiments - 

The last major style of beer introduced was the Pilsner (1840ish, I think), but in all styles there are new efforts to rival the classics.
No two breweries are alike. Although the basic principles of brewing are the same everywhere, the product of the mashtun, the brew kettle and the fermenting vessels depend very much on exactly where it's made. The world's classic beers, like cheeses and wines, were born in a particular place as a result of local materials, circumstances and the ideas of the original creator.
Beer is much more extensively consumed than wine, but less adequately honoured and in my own understated and modest (and somewhat cavalier) way, I want to help put right that injustice. 
There might be a couple of reasons for emulation 
- the tried and tested methods produce desirable results.
- demographics - if i live on welfare and I can swap milk tokens for a can that says BUY ME - I MAKE COOPERS PALE ALE (ok - toned down - maybe to save money i want to make a Tooheys mauve or whatever, cause I used to drink that before the recession)
- homesick ex-pat brewers desperately trying to bring a little bit of home

Although I think the English phrase 'you can't polish a turd'... is kind of apt!!


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## warra48 (17/6/09)

A lot of new kit brewers believe the images of beer as displayed on the kit labels, boxes or brochures, which in my view almost amount to false advertising.

Misguidedly, novice brewers think they can make perfectly clear and carbonated great tasting beer by following the kit instructions.
After the almost inevitable disappointment, they look for answers to sites such as AHB, especially when their local HB shop in many cases is of little help.

Attempting to brew a kit beer which resembles a commercial beer you like is a good starting point, and I see nothing wrong with that. Some of my earliest brews attempted to copy JSAA, and I even compared my efforts side by side with the real one. I think I got close, and was happy with it at the time.

That didn't stop me progressing into extract, and then AG brewing.
I have no doubt my first AG brew was like hundreds of other's, i.e. a clone attempt at SNPA.
I now see commercial beers or styles as starting points, and I've arrived at a point where I brews beers according to my own tastes and desires.
If others like it, well and good, but if they don't, then I don't lose sleep over it.

My sister and brother-in-law have stayed with us for the last week. He's almost drunk me out of stock of my favourite brown ale.
He's an alleged lager drinker, but didn't like my BoPils, so we haven't touched any of that since the first day.

I guess brewing is all a journey, and you take it as far as *you* want to take it till you get to a point where you are happy.
And we shouldn't lose sight of the fact I see this as a hobby, even though it may be an obsessive one. 
It's not life and death, there are more important things.


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## Bribie G (17/6/09)

I've only ever done two extract beers, using LDME, and they turned out ok but nothing like anything commercial. However I spent ten months trying to make a clone of Melbourne Bitter using kits with a partial mash and dextrose and finally gave up because although I had a couple of very successful brews, overall I was finding a lot of variation in the quality of the kits themselves. Even good old Coopers Lager can vary enormously depending on where you buy it and how long it has been on the shelf at what temperature. So the OP is dead right in that using kits takes most of the control away from the brewer and the kit ends up as a foe rather than a friend. Took me 10 months to work that out, must be a slow learner.

Nowadays my house lager is Carlton style but it's a lot more flavourful and smooth, and about 5.5%. It hits that exact spot that I was looking for in my Melbourne project and visitors and friends can't believe it's home brew. The secret? Thanks to info I have gleaned from posts of a certain forum member who is 'in the know' I use the same ingredients as they buy in at Abbotsford / Yatala (BB Malt, sugar - heck how simple is that) but have 'refined' the process a bit by using real hops (POR / Superpride) instead of isohop, and also include some rice in the mash which I find smooths out the beer and gives improved clarity. Whilst I can't get the Carlton yeast of course I have it on good authority that Wyeast Californian is an almost perfect sub.

Point is, after nearly a year of faffing around with partials and kits I have acheived one of my original aims and can brew a dead reliable Classic Australian that is now my house brand, but without that year of struggle I would not have picked up the skills and knowledge. Two days ago I took a deep breath and attempted my holy grail of holy grails and knocked out a Czech Pilsener ... about to whack the Urquell pack this morning. I feel that I have been doing Brewing 101 for the last year, now my journey is really picking up speed.

Then to go to work on my house UK bitter


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## bum (17/6/09)

The following is merely an observation in the form of a rhetorical question, rather than a provocation:

Am I the only person who noticed that many of those defending Kit brewers are more patronising than the OP?

The following is a provocation in the form of an observation (and a physical insult):



masculator002 said:


> you shouldn't be afraid to create something of your own. Be it something that is passionfruity like squires hop thief with the maltyness of an Oettinger and the yeastyness of a firestone or the bitterness of an arrogant bastard ale, Make it your own and dont be afraid to try using things which are frowned upon by others.



Do you see how you've completely undermined your own point in the sentence where you've tried to distill it into its purest form? You've used commercial beers as your reference point, dicktard.


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## Supra-Jim (17/6/09)

Alas Bum, I think his intention was to use commerical examples to exemplify hop flavour, maltiness, yeast and finally bitterness, all rolled up in one beer. Rather than suggesting one brews an example of each. 

It would not work to say, hey made a brew with the kind of malt backbone shown in my last brew, cos chances are no-one online has tasted it.

In the end comparisons against (good or bad) commerical examples will always happen, be it through people attempting to clone the original (nothing wrong there) or people using a commerical example to decribe and attribute of the brew.

For some reason, possibly the incredibly immature child that dwells within me (and controls me), calling the OP a dicktard made me giggle! h34r: 

Cheers SJ


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## bum (17/6/09)

The reason it undermines his point is because if someone wants to make a beer that has the hop profile of a LCPA, the malt profile of a LCPA, the yeast character of a LCPA then - oh, look at that! - they want to make something very much like a LCPA. But let's take your description of his usage of the references at face value: All he's done, then, is said "You should be trying to emulate 4 beers, not one." And for what it is worth the beer described sounds hideous. What does he do with 300lt of that stuff?

Then moving on to his assertion that just going on to extract fixes the problems inherent in kit brewing - absolute pus! All it does is expose the new brewer to an untold number variables (with their own numerous process related variables). The _only_ way to control these variables without experience and knowledge is through using a reference point/recipe. Or a kit because as far as I can tell the only difference between extract brewing and K&B brewing is a long boil for bittering - everything else is about the same. Selecting the right kit instead (if one exists) could take a lot of guesswork out of making a good beer. Why one would elevate extract brewing so far above kit brewing makes no sense to me.


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## sinkas (17/6/09)

masculator?

is this post 'roid-rage


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## Supra-Jim (17/6/09)

Not wanting to get into the K&K verses Extract but an all extract brew, esp one with some steeped grains is a major step up and beoyond what you get with your K&K (lets say it's brewed with what you can get at Coles). My beers improved dramatically when i switched to extract over K&B, and my first one was an attempt at Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. I have no issue with attempting clones at all.

I do agree with you though that attempting a clone can be a good reference point, provided the right beer is chosen. Some beers are very difficult to clone with K&B or K&K, even with extract brewing.

At the end of the day, it's horses for courses and whatever the brewer feels comfortable in doing.

Cheers SJ


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## bum (17/6/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> At the end of the day, it's horses for courses and whatever the brewer feels comfortable in doing.



No argument here.


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## Snow (17/6/09)

masculator002 said:


> not trying to make it out as the newest and greatest smurto just trying to encourage some of the newer brewers to think outside thi box and try to create what they desire/imagine to be their desired beer.


Mate just the fact they are on this site means they are already starting to think outside the box. The box being buying a kit, adding sugar and packet yeast. Development of skills through incremental steps in using different ingredients and "cloning" beers you're familiar with is a logical step to developing your brewing repertoire. Very few brewers have the wherewithall to jump straight from kits to formulating their own recipes using extract, grain or whatever. Also, bear in mind that many commercial beers that people are trying to clone are good examples of a particular style. So, someone trying to nail a particular beer may be doing the same thing as someone picking up a style guideline and trying to brew to the letter of the "law".

Cheers - Snow


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## Supra-Jim (17/6/09)

bum said:


> No argument here.



Sweet, now does anyone have a good K&K or K&B recipe to make a spot on Tooheys New clone???  

Cheers SJ

(PS Chappo, I know you have a K&B recipe for Tooheys Red, but I don't want it!!!)


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## bum (17/6/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> Sweet, now does anyone have a good K&K or K&B recipe to make a spot on Tooheys New clone???



I think manticle posted it earlier in this thread.


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## muckey (17/6/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> Sweet, now does anyone have a good K&K or K&B recipe to make a spot on Tooheys New clone???
> 
> Cheers SJ
> 
> (PS Chappo, I know you have a K&B recipe for Tooheys Red, but I don't want it!!!)




yeah but it aint much different to Chappo's h34r: 

seriously people start out trying to emulate the beers they enjoy drinking and having moved into AG I'm still trying to brew the beers I enjoy drinking even though thats changed a lot. 

I think the motivation is: I like drinking X beer -> i believe home brew is cheaper and better -> I'd like to have a cheaper better version of X beer.

Then they work out how much better beer can really be and so starts the slide on the slippery slope.

(I mean to all grain, not the slippery slope where you fall in your beer :lol: )


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## Katherine (17/6/09)

manticle said:


> @masculator:
> 
> Sure, I get what you're trying to do and I agree with the point. It's what I'm constantly trying to do with my own beer.
> 
> ...



HA we have mashed a hyrdometer! 

Why do any of us have to justify HOW or WHAT we brew. The one thing we all have in common is BEER!

edit: spelling (some of us are better spellers)


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## Snow (17/6/09)

Katie said:


> HA we have mashed a hyrdometer!
> 
> Why does any of us have to justify HOW or WHAT we brew. The one thing we all have in common is BEER!



Amen!


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## manticle (17/6/09)

If being mashed, hydrometers need to be double decocted and saccharificationally rested with a pH of 4.7 for 37 minutes underneath a 6 year old wattle tree coated in naturally made Belgian Candi sugar. 



> The one thing we all have in common is BEER!





> The one thing we all have in common is BEER!





> The one thing we all have in common is BEER!





> The one thing we all have in common is BEER!



I agree so much I have to quote it four times.


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## mwd (17/6/09)

Katie said:


> HA we have mashed a hyrdometer!
> 
> Why does any of us have to justify HOW or WHAT we brew. The one thing we all have in common is BEER!



+2

BTW having a problem making my Stella Artois 'Clone' from my Coopers Stout Kit :lol: 

Brewcraft making plenty from Clone style Kits so no denying it is a popular theme for Kit brewers starting out.


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## Sammus (17/6/09)

manticle said:


> @masculator:
> 
> Sure, I get what you're trying to do and I agree with the point. It's what I'm constantly trying to do with my own beer.
> 
> ...



:lol: I like your style. Oh, and if a brewer came in and asked "how do I make xxx" (sic) I think they'd be met with some interesting responses


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## Supra-Jim (17/6/09)

manticle said:


> If being mashed, hydrometers need to be double decocted and saccharificationally rested with a pH of 4.7 for 37 minutes underneath a 6 year old wattle tree coated in naturally made Belgian Candi sugar.



I know what you're saying here manticle, but i believe this is only necessary when attempting to accurately reproduce certain commerical styles, a process known a 'cloning'  

Cheers SJ


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## Katherine (17/6/09)

Its just a natural thing to try to brew your favourite beer... I learnt pretty quickly dumping a whole lot of chinook pellets in to an extract boil was not going to get my LCPA. I also learnt I bloody lucky to only live around the corner from Creatures so I can go there for a beer and brew my/our beer at home. I have really enjoyed my progression (is that the right word?) in brewing and I still have so so so MUCH to learn. Ive met some great people to whom now I call my friends.


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## muckey (17/6/09)

Supra-Jim said:


> I know what you're saying here manticle, but i believe this is only necessary when attempting to accurately reproduce certain commerical styles, a process known a 'cloning'
> 
> Cheers SJ




Oh damn. I know what I've been doing wrong. I thought cloning was breaking your hydrometer in halves to make to hydrometers.

Ok back to work :blink:


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## Supra-Jim (17/6/09)

Muckey said:


> Oh damn. I know what I've been doing wrong. I thought cloning was breaking your hydrometer in halves to make to hydrometers.
> 
> Ok back to work :blink:



Easy mistake to make there Muckey, just remember if you break you hydrometer in half, you'll have to remember to mutiply any gravity readings by 2 next time you use it!

Cheers SJ


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## jonocarroll (17/6/09)

Muckey said:


> Oh damn. I know what I've been doing wrong. I thought cloning was breaking your hydrometer in halves to make to hydrometers.


Just imagine that someone with more time on their hands bothered to doctor a picture from Fantasia of lots of little hydrometers marching along... and stuck it here.


<pretend picture is here>


I can't be arsed, myself, but it would be funny.


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## Supra-Jim (17/6/09)

I imagined it QB, and I LOL'd (though it may have been an imaginary LOL!  )

Cheers SJ


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## Scruffy (17/6/09)

Katie said:


> I have really enjoyed my progression (is that the right word?) in brewing and I still have so so so MUCH to learn. Ive met some great people to whom now I call my friends.





manticle said:


> making cheaparse homebrand 'lager' with 3 kg of sugar and getting mashed every night.


Such a fine line...


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## Leigh (17/6/09)

Lots of great posts on this thread...

I think it goes back a little earlier though. For me, I'd only buy slabs of megaswill that I had tried before AND enjoyed, either at the pub or in a can/stubbie that was at somebodies house. I'm sure we all found that some brews we liked, and others stank...

So then for whatever reason we decide to try homebrew. I'd tasted some K&B homebrew from friends and wasn't necessarilly impressed, but knowing I could cook better than some of them, thought I could do a better job.

Naturally, I tried a clone of something I knew...being a VB drinker, the last thing I wanted to was end up with 2 1/2 slabs of something that tasted like Tooheys or XXXX! After making the clone, and discovering my clone was better than the real thing, I developed some confidence and started experimenting...but stuck with the clones for a while until my confidence and knowledge grew. Each clone was slightly different and allowed me to learn what effect each different ingrediant made. I now develop my own recipes, but I haven't made an undrinkable batch yet (touch wood).

I still label all my beers as clones, even though they taste nothing like what they are supposed to be clones of...but it tells me what "style" the beer is in...to call it a Pale Ale doesn't tell me much when I have four different PA recipes...calling one a Mountain Goat, another a Little Creatures etc tells me what to expect...

My friends stopped experimenting once they found recipes that they enjoyed. They are good recipes and they enjoy them and are happy.

Picking up on Katies point about "why do we have to defend ourselves", I agree. But I think the point where we stop depends on what sort of obsessive personality you have...I tend to take anything I do and do it to 120% (mega obsessed), others are happy with 10%. That's what makes us all different. The world would be pretty boring if we all liked the same things and agreed on everything! :beer:


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## brettprevans (17/6/09)

OP title - Why Do Kit Brewers Try To Emulate Brewery Beers
should we not try and clone Rochfort 10? thats made by a brewery. i assume you are meaning megaswill rather than just brewery. but ive made my point.

wtf does anyone have to justify what they want to make. do AGs make clones? yes. so why cant k&Kers make clones? geez. Lets see. simplest answer...

commercial beer = benchmark. make a clone and compare. then you have an idea of your brewing knowledge against the orginal benchmark. simple really.

Ive tated K&K beers that shit on AG beers. its the person brewing the beer and their knowledge makes the differance.


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## Scruffy (17/6/09)

With only barley, hops and yeast, there are going to be a few similarities...


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## bum (17/6/09)

Yeah, gritty and hard to drink.


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## Scruffy (17/6/09)

...and water,

barley, hops and yeast ....and water,

there's going to be the odd similarity...


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## .DJ. (17/6/09)

bum said:


> Yeah, gritty and hard to drink.



Water helps!!


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## Scruffy (17/6/09)

helps...

barley, hops, yeast, water and water helps...

there's going to be a few words missing...


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## bum (17/6/09)

Sugaz.


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## MitchDudarko (17/6/09)

I'd love to go into AG or partials, but there's no point here. 600km from anywhere lol. I'm not enjoying the K&K beers im making, as they seem to have some kinda kit 'twang' to them, a champagne/cider smell and taste to them. There's no real homebrew shop in Kalgoorlie. I got into it because yes, I was trying to emulate the commercial beers i'd tried, and being able to consume the fruits of my labour appealed to me also.


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## brettprevans (17/6/09)

mitch - see what the frieght is from some of the online stores. it may not be that much.

and theres nothing wrong with K&K. as i said you can make bloody good K&K beers if you know how (and use a bit of spec grain, good yeast and hops)


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## jonocarroll (17/6/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> mitch - see what the frieght is from some of the online stores. it may not be that much.


+1

If you want to live somewhere away from a decent HBS, you cop the cost of freight, order grains, hops and yeast, then make some good beer, and are happy. The fact that other people can walk into a decent HBS and pick up ingredients is irrelevant, just add it into the cost per kg or whatever makes you happy. It still works out cheaper than buying megaswill. No excuses!


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## bum (17/6/09)

When I order on line I find that one of the above sponsors is still cheaper than my LHBS as long as I fill the 3kg post satchel. Really worth considering, Mitch.


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## BitterBulldog (17/6/09)

I think like with most things in life you have to start somewhere.


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## shenthus (2/7/09)

I am new to brewing, relatively, and am still doing kit brewing. My father brewed in the 70's with extract and got some good results.

Why do people use kits? Safe to start with, easy and less expensive. Space constraints. Not everyone has the ability to build, or adapt, to suit going to full mash or the money to purchase the equipment to go all grain.

What really concerns me about this thread is the arrogance in the OP and in the posts. As a new brewer I have no bloody idea what all the abbreviations you are using mean, I have never done an AG or a K&B or any other than kit brewing as it is a good starting point for me.

Guys if you want to encourage people then encourage people, don't form this private little club, using private language with secret codes then abuse them for using all kits. Rather than encouraging people it turns them away.

By the way I am NOT trying to clone a particular beer but approach beer styles I happen to like and I won't justify myself for anyone.


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## manticle (2/7/09)

To be fair a lot of experienced brewers spoke up for kit brewers and brewing. I'm not particularly experienced but I also spoke up for it - passionately and vehemently.

Also all the acronyms and corresponding definitions can be found here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=17 and here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=15


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## Cocko (2/7/09)

Hey Shenthus,

First of all welcome to the boards!

As manticle said, I read this thread as a fair bit of support to kit brewers overall.... Do you not?

Did it turn you away? do you think you will keep reading and posting?


Hmmm....


17tX467-(__1 [Sorry, thats code ]

RDWHAHB!!

:icon_cheers:


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## bum (2/7/09)

Almost the only defence of kit brewers I see (by non kit brewers) is of the "oh, they don't know any better yet, give them time" variety.

I think I said something similar a page or two back.


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## manticle (2/7/09)

I think it was more in lines of "everybody starts somewhere". If that's where they want to stay then good luck to them but they probably don't need much from here (I mean straight kk). That's not meant to be disparaging but I can't imagine people making beer with a can and a kilo of sugar (and happy with the way it runs out) needing masses of advice.

If someone wants to make kk eer good luck to them. Most of this forum and possibly thins thread should be entirely irrelevant to them.

I say that as someone who happily answers every single question about why an airlock isn't making any noise.


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## shenthus (2/7/09)

HI
thanks for the welcome and the link, the acronyms can be a bit overwhelming sometimes.

Hasn't turned me off but then again I am not easily turned off when I am looking for knowledge and information.

Some have defended kits brewers and some haven't but my point was, why should anyone HAVE to defend anyone else. Maybe there are perfectly good reasons for doing what ever it is your doing. Doesn't make you more right than the other person, just different. If I brew with a kit and enjoy my results then that's all that matters. If I don't want to "look outside the box" that's my affair.

Maybe you can get a "better result" using all grain, but maybe you can do it anyway. 

As long as your happy who gets hurt?


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## Thirsty Boy (3/7/09)

bum said:


> Almost the only defence of kit brewers I see (by non kit brewers) is of the "oh, they don't know any better yet, give them time" variety.
> 
> I think I said something similar a page or two back.



well, apart from CM2 saying just above that you can make fantastic beers from kits - I happen to agree.

The main reason that AG brews tend to be better than K&K brews .. is because the brewers themselves have usually learned a lot from experience and realize that they are making a much greater investment in time and effort - so they try harder, take more care, have more gear and know more about what they are doing.

I bet that any of the really good AG brewers who frequent this site - could make you a Kits and bits beer that would blow your socks off. And I bet there are K&K guys out there who have just honed their relatively simple art down to a razor edge. You just dont hear from them because they already know what they are doing.

I've tasted some pretty damn good K&K beer - and some pretty frigging woeful AG beer. The difference is the brewer (and fermentation control) - the method of brewing is a minor player. A good brewer can make good beer any old how.


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## manticle (3/7/09)

Shenthus said:


> HI
> thanks for the welcome and the link, the acronyms can be a bit overwhelming sometimes.
> 
> Hasn't turned me off but then again I am not easily turned off when I am looking for knowledge and information.
> ...




People discuss stuff. People have opinions. One was- "kit brewers should make uo their own stuff from extract and not base it on popular recipes" Another was " kit brewers learn about beer by trying to brew popular recipes".

No-one has to do anything - it's just a discussion and yes if you don't want to look out the box it's your affair. However if, as you said, you're looking for informaion and knowledge then you'll probably get it with a dose of opinion. Fair enough if a whole bunch of all grainers got your email address and started spamming you with recipes or telling you to stop using kits but if you willingly use a beer forum you pretty much accept that various people will think and say various things. Doesn't stop you doing whatever it is you want to do.


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## bum (3/7/09)

manticle said:


> That's not meant to be disparaging but I can't imagine people making beer with a can and a kilo of sugar (and happy with the way it runs out) needing masses of advice.


After a few brews, sure, but there is still plenty for the novice k&ker to learn and I reckon this board is a pretty good place to learn a lot of it.



manticle said:


> If someone wants to make kk eer good luck to them. Most of this forum and possibly thins thread should be entirely irrelevant to them.


I disagree with this. There's no reason that this section can't be useful for straight K&K brewers. This thread? Well, maybe this is purely a semantic issue but perhaps it is relevant to them if they wish to defend themselves?



manticle said:


> I say that as someone who happily answers every single question about why an airlock isn't making any noise.


True. Always good, unbiased advice.


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## Bribie G (3/7/09)

I've been AG since November but I've got some cans of Coopers Stout in the garage waiting to be turned into toucans, and I know for a fact that there are AG'ers on the forum who have been known to run up a kits n LDME beer or three when their AG stocks are low or they are too flat out to do a brewday. So there's still a place for kits for the more 'advanced' brewers and there are heaps of people out there who do not have the time or cash to get into AG. Guy round the corner from me has a keg setup and quite happily feeds it Morgans + dex + cluster + SO4 and is more than happy.

A note to the poster who complains about the jargon and 'clubbyness' of the forum, as you will find out there are so many hundreds of ingredients, practices and hardware that we would take us twice as long to do a post if we had to expand every acronym or laboriously elaborate on every term. I used to be irritated by all the 'code words' myself when I got back into brewing, especially the yeast names that used to drive me crazy. Nowadays I've got the hang of most of it and would much rather read a line such as "TTL goes great on TF MO as well as GP and preferably 1469 if you can get it" Than "The UK bitter Timothy Taylor Landlord Bitter goes great on Thomas Fawcett (Floor Malted) Maris Otter Pale Malt as well as Golden Promise Pale malt and preferably Wyeast 1469 West Yorkshire Bitter liquid yeast if you can get it". 

It's like every hobby, not unlike electronics etc. and it becomes second nature after a while.


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## O'Henry (3/7/09)

manticle said:


> To be fair a lot of experienced brewers spoke up for kit brewers and brewing. I'm not particularly experienced but I also spoke up for it - passionately and vehemently.
> 
> Also all the acronyms and corresponding definitions can be found here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=17 and here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=15



Thanks so much for these links. I never want to ask cause it is annoying for regular posters but this should see me scratching my head and making up my own acronyms a lot less now.


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## Nick JD (3/7/09)

I'm an expert at everything I do. I can't understand why everyone else isn't. I like to go to children's sporting matches and yell at the referee. I also yell at the TV because I'm more knowledgeable about all sport than the people hired to coach it. Politicians? They're all idiots.

People on the road don't know how to drive - I could probably get round Bathurst faster than Brockie. 

No one knows they are drinking bad beer. I can make beer that's better than all the fools know. 

They are all idiots.

I have no friends.  :huh:


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## uniiqueuser (3/7/09)

Nick JD said:


> I'm an expert at everything I do. I can't understand why everyone else isn't. I like to go to children's sporting matches and yell at the referee. I also yell at the TV because I'm more knowledgeable about all sport than the people hired to coach it. Politicians? They're all idiots.
> 
> People on the road don't know how to drive - I could probably get round Bathurst faster than Brockie.
> 
> ...




LOL!!!!!

You must be my long lost clone

I first started brewing nearly 20 years ago and all I've done is K&K, except for a while I was chucking in 500 gms of honey per fermenter which created an interesting taste.

I have never tried to clone a commercial beer. I have developed a taste for my brew and even though it is basic, as I have found out from reading this forum, I open every bottle with the relief that it is going to taste far better than the 'popular' alternatives from the bottle shop, and cost far less as well.

I knew that AG existed and one day I will getaroundtoit when I run out of excuses.....

Nothing improves without resistance. I used to think I was a shit hot homebrewer until I had a look at the efforts that you guys go to, and the noobie should be encouraged to try a little harder to create a better beer. 

Or not... if what they are making blows their hair back. People are individuals and individuality should be encouraged above all else. As for being discouraged because I think more 'adventurous' brewers might look down on me... nah!!! The information in this forum, as in other forums, is very enlightening, but definitely does nothing to dent my massive ego.


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## manticle (3/7/09)

bum said:


> I disagree with this. There's no reason that this section can't be useful for straight K&K brewers. This thread? Well, maybe this is purely a semantic issue but perhaps it is relevant to them if they wish to defend themselves?



What I was trying to get at was that if someone purely wants to make beer from a kit and a kilo of sugar and has NO interest in trying anything else and is happy with what they are doing (as suggested in the post I was responding to) then they are unlikely to need advice. Of course KK brewers can get something from this forum and it doesn't necessitate that one day they'll all be all grainers. I love learning and I've gone from KK through all the stages to partial mashing and I aim to be all grain brewing soon but I never judge people for the stage they're at nor the stage they see as their ultimate (be it kit or grain). I'm the first to speak up against AG/anti-VB snobbery, despite loving the idea of process, fresh ingredience and quality.

@Nick JD: Spot on


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## mwd (3/7/09)

It was just a trolling thread common on all forums.

Don't feed the trolls.

internet trolls.........bite my buttocks

got to 6 pages a trolling masterpiece from the first post :icon_vomit:


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## bum (3/7/09)

Manticle, I wasn't getting at the idea that K&K brewer can learn stuff to add to kits to make better beers (which is both possible and advisable) - I was suggesting that there are things that may improve their beers while still staying straight K&K - i.e. yeast, temp control, sanitation, etc (as we know the literature under the lid is no real help here).

As for the stuff about you, I'm sorry if I've said anything you (or anyone else) has taken personally. What I said above was serious and I'm not sure you need to defend yourself like that.

[edit: typing like a drunk - not sure what causes that?]


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## kenlock (3/7/09)

At the end of the day, this is a caring and sharing forum. 

We share a passion for beer, and care that others should be enjoying the best drop that they can make.

We debate, discuss and offer opinions. We care greatly about what we drink, and more than happily share the knowledge we have gained throughout our journeys. 


Hmm. Now I'm off to tend some sheep with my best mate!


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## manticle (3/7/09)

bum said:


> Manticle, I wasn't getting at the idea that K&K brewer can learn stuff to add to kits to make better beers (which is both possible and advisable) - I was suggesting that there are things that may improve their beers while still staying straight K&K - i.e. yeast, temp control, sanitation, etc (as we know the literature under the lid is no real help here).
> 
> As for the stuff about you, I'm sorry if I've said anything you (or anyone else) has taken personally. What I said above was serious and I'm not sure you need to defend yourself like that.
> 
> [edit: typing like a drunk - not sure what causes that?]



Mate you haven't said (or written) a single thing I've found offensive. My 'defence' is simply me trying to clarify my position as I'd hate to be misunderstood. There's certainly no need for you to apologise (unless that was you that took a dump on my back lawn?)

I was talking purely about people who are 'happy doing what they are doing with kits' to potentially misquote a recent new poster in this thread. Anyone who is interested in anything, whether temp control, yeast choice or hop teabags is basically in the same game as far as I can understand. Those people are not 'happy' they're seeking knowledge. Doesn't have to be the ants' pants pinnacle of knowledge but I admire passion and curiosity in anyone.


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