# Pilsner - Hop Schedule



## Frank (21/9/08)

I am starting to plan next weeks brew and am planning to do a Czech Pilsner.
I was wondering if anyone has any strong suggestions to the best order to add Saaz hops.
I currently have 90g of each of the following:
B Saaz (flowers)
D Saaz (pellets)
Czech Saaz (pellets)
I don't need to get too carried away by using all hop varieties, but this is what I have so far.

The recipe so far is (50L), 26.6 IBU:
10kg Pilsner (Wey)
40g B Saaz 6.8% 60min
40g Czech Saaz 4.0% 40min
40g D Saaz 4.4% 20min
40g B Saaz 6.8% 5min
25g Czech Saaz 4.0% Dry hop
Wyeast 2278 (4L starter)
Pitch at 20 C, ferment at 12 C.

This is my first lager, so don't expect to nail it the first time, but would like to come close.


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## MCT (21/9/08)

Boston said:


> I am starting to plan next weeks brew and am planning to do a Czech Pilsner.
> I was wondering if anyone has any strong suggestions to the best order to add Saaz hops.
> I currently have 90g of each of the following:
> B Saaz (flowers)
> ...



Looks good. I would use most of the Czech saaz in the later additions, and the higher aau% early on for the bittering if you want a Czech style pilsner.
But I'd be more inclined to use the B Saaz flowers later and get the full flavour/aroma you get from flowers. Might not be a true Czech pilsner but I reckon it'd be bloody nice.

BTW I'm drinking a Czech pils I did with 100% Czech Saaz right now and it's great!


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## Duff (21/9/08)

Boston said:


> I am starting to plan next weeks brew and am planning to do a Czech Pilsner.
> I was wondering if anyone has any strong suggestions to the best order to add Saaz hops.
> I currently have 90g of each of the following:
> B Saaz (flowers)
> ...



Way too many flavours there for a Pilsener.

Keep your B Saaz for a LC Bright Ale style, your D Saaz combined with Cascade for APA's, and the Czech Saaz for Pilsener.

Go for something like 60, 40, 20, flame out additions. OG around 1.050, IBU's around 35 - 40 depending on taste.


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## Zwickel (21/9/08)

Duff said:


> Way too many flavours there for a Pilsener.
> 
> Keep your B Saaz for a LC Bright Ale style, your D Saaz combined with Cascade for APA's, and the Czech Saaz for Pilsener.
> 
> Go for something like 60, 40, 20, flame out additions. OG around 1.050, IBU's around 35 - 40 depending on taste.


+1

more than 90% of my beers are Pilseners and all the time I do only two additions: right after the hotbreak Im adding the bittering hops (just take the hops with its highest alpha acid) and 15min. before flameout Im adding the aromatic hops. Thats all.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Barry (21/9/08)

Good Day Zwickel
I have made numerous German and Czech Pils as well as judging many more that seem to lack the necessary hop aroma, and often hop flavour, found in commercial examples. How do your pils rate re aroma and flavour and is there some good advice about achieving this?


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## Frank (21/9/08)

Duff said:


> Way too many flavours there for a Pilsener.
> Keep your B Saaz for a LC Bright Ale style, your D Saaz combined with Cascade for APA's, and the Czech Saaz for Pilsener.



I thought the Hop schedule might be too busy.



Zwickel said:


> +1
> more than 90% of my beers are Pilseners and all the time I do only two additions: right after the hotbreak Im adding the bittering hops (just take the hops with its highest alpha acid) and 15min. before flameout Im adding the aromatic hops. Thats all.



Just updated recipe.
90g B Saaz 6.8% 60min

90g Czech Saaz 4.0% 15min

Happy to keep it simple, 35.9 IBU, 5.06% ABV.
Planning 90 min boil.

Thanks


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## domonsura (21/9/08)

That looks pretty good Boston. I reckon the D Saaz would have messed with the flavour profile too much.


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## drsmurto (21/9/08)

Duff said:


> Way too many flavours there for a Pilsener.
> 
> Keep your B Saaz for a LC Bright Ale style, your D Saaz combined with Cascade for APA's, and the Czech Saaz for Pilsener.
> 
> Go for something like 60, 40, 20, flame out additions. OG around 1.050, IBU's around 35 - 40 depending on taste.



Had the Pikes beer on Friday night and dropped in on the winery and grabbed a 6 pack.

Its a pilsner. The right up in the winery with some notes by Willie Simpson said NZ saaz hops. It was too subtle to be D Saaz IMHO. 

Funny tho cos the media release from Pikes themselves says US grown czech ssaz.

Easy drinking beer in the german pilsner style. 35 IBU


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## Zwickel (21/9/08)

Barry said:


> Good Day Zwickel
> I have made numerous German and Czech Pils as well as judging many more that seem to lack the necessary hop aroma, and often hop flavour, found in commercial examples. How do your pils rate re aroma and flavour and is there some good advice about achieving this?


hmmm.... the final taste of a good Pilsener does not only depends on the hops flavours, it depends also on the mash schedule.

let me say it in short words: if youre going to produce a dry and crispy Pilsener, the hops flavours should not be masked by an overly malty wort.
Also it is necessary to use a high flocculating yeast thats able to achieve a final gravity below 1008.

The bitterness of the Pilsener should be achieved by a bittering hops with more than 10%aa, such as Magnum or Northern Brewer for example. This should be added right after the hot break, may be 10min after boil began.

The arome you may taste, should come out of the aroma hops that almost nothing contributes to the bitterness of the beer, just added short before flameout.

A typical Pilsener recipe of mine would be: adding 100g/ 13%aa of Magnum 10min after boil began, then 35g/2%aa Saazer 10to 15min. before flameout.

That way Im doing already my 97th Pilsener brew next weekend.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Tony (21/9/08)

I agree Zwickel.

PEople think a pilsner should be a hoppy beer but thats not true.

I used to try and make them with a lot of late hops but it just doesnt work.

Bittering hops and a small amount of late hops for character is all that needed.

cheers


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## tazman1967 (21/9/08)

I agree with Zwickel and Tony.. All Saaz hops aint going to give you the bitterness that you need. I agree with Magnum or Northern Brewer for the bitterness additions, Saaz for the flavour and aroma and dry hop.IMHO


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## Batz (21/9/08)

Zwickel said:


> hmmm.... the final taste of a good Pilsener does not only depends on the hops flavours, it depends also on the mash schedule.
> 
> let me say it in short words: if youre going to produce a dry and crispy Pilsener, the hops flavours should not be masked by an overly malty wort.
> Also it is necessary to use a high flocculating yeast thats able to achieve a final gravity below 1008.
> ...




Beautiful!
Look forward to you sampling one of my Pilsners Zwickel,we have very similar tastes in pilsners I believe 

Batz


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## Stuster (21/9/08)

Zwickel said:


> A typical Pilsener recipe of mine would be: adding 100g/ 13%aa of Magnum 10min after boil began, then 35g/2%aa Saazer 10to 15min. before flameout.



What size batch is that for, Zwickel?


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## Zwickel (21/9/08)

thanks brewers for the positive response :icon_cheers: 

Batz, I think end of January/early February you will need to have some homebrew on stock 



Stuster said:


> What size batch is that for, Zwickel?


thats for 65l of wort, 60liters into the fermenter and 5liters into the freezer

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## devo (21/9/08)

Honestly I don't see much point in doing 30/20 minute hop additions for flavouring because most of it is going out of the kettle as vapour.


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## Jazman (21/9/08)

do not dry hop saaz or 5 min add my last pils i bittered with saaz b then at 30 mins and 15 used czech saaz


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## SJW (21/9/08)

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/b....3/urquell.html

If the people from Pilsner Urquell can't be getting it right, we dont have a snow balls chance. They first wort hop, 60min and 25 min.
I have done many many Pilsners and a 60min and 20min is more than enough, otherwise u risk turning an otherwise fine beer into grass cuttings.

Steve


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## Duff (22/9/08)

tazman1967 said:


> I agree with Zwickel and Tony.. All Saaz hops aint going to give you the bitterness that you need. I agree with Magnum or Northern Brewer for the bitterness additions, Saaz for the flavour and aroma and dry hop.IMHO



Huh? Pilsener Urquell produce a nice bitter beer with all Saaz.


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## Ross (22/9/08)

Duff said:


> Huh? Pilsener Urquell produce a nice bitter beer with all Saaz.



Duff,

I've heard that Pilsner Urquell hasn't been brewed with all Saaz for a while now. 
....+ I'd be totally amazed if Urquell gets its aroma from a physical hop addition, I strongly suspect the use of hop oil.


cheers Ross


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## bconnery (22/9/08)

Another option would be to bitter with something else, if you have it, and save the B-Saaz for another pilsner. 
B-Saaz makes a very nice pilsner on its own...


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## matti (22/9/08)

Zwickel said:


> +1
> 
> more than 90% of my beers are Pilseners and all the time I do only two additions: right after the hotbreak Im adding the bittering hops (just take the hops with its highest alpha acid) and 15min. before flameout Im adding the aromatic hops. Thats all.
> 
> Cheers :icon_cheers:



Sounds Like top advice to me.
Just ensure you have a nice smooth rolling boil 
If it show a good cold break it is time for aroma hops.



Ross said:


> Duff,
> 
> I've heard that Pilsner Urquell hasn't been brewed with all Saaz for a while now.
> ....+ I'd be totally amazed if Urquell gets its aroma from a physical hop addition, I strongly suspect the use of hop oil.
> ...



Right on Ross.
Most commercial breweries use hop oils.


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## gap (22/9/08)

matti said:


> Right on Ross.
> Most commercial breweries use hop oils.




Please educate us further.

How do you know that most commercial breweries use hop oil. And please do not quote CUB or Lion Nathan.
They are only 2 of a large number of commercial breweries throughout the world.

Regards

Graeme


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## bconnery (22/9/08)

gap said:


> Please educate us further.
> 
> How do you know that most commercial breweries use hop oil. And please do not quote CUB or Lion Nathan.
> They are only 2 of a large number of commercial breweries throughout the world.
> ...



Most is a bit of a stretch, but the numbers are far higher than you'd imagine. 
I don't pretend to have all the facts on worldwide usage but I do know that Chimay is one, Paulaner I believe is another, and that's just two that someone who doesn't know a lot about the issue knows about. 
Most of the big boys, your AB, Millers, Lion Nathan etc definitely do but their use is becoming more common amongst other breweries as well especially in light of recent issues with hop yields and shortages over recent years.


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## hewy (22/9/08)

Guys,

I was lucky enough to do a brewery tour of urquell earlier this year. The tour guide reckons that the recipe is still the same, pils malt and saaz hops only. Drinking the beer fresh in CZ I noticed that it is a lot maltier than I remembered it being here - I havent bought any since I got back so can't confirm. I do rememebr there wasnt a great deal of hop aroma mainly malt.

Anyway not sure what chance you have of replicating PU as they malt their own grain and triple decoct...

I reckon for the above recipe use high % aa hops for bittering, doesnt really matter which - I have had good results from POR (not super alpha). Then add 30g (for 23l) 15min from flameout. That should produce a good beer.

Cheers
Hewy


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## SJW (22/9/08)

I have been through a few micro brewery's and a few bigger ones both here and O/S and they all used real hops. I would not doubt that CUB and Lion Nathan would use hop oils but what they makew only just classes as Beer!


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## Frank (22/9/08)

bconnery said:


> Another option would be to bitter with something else, if you have it, and save the B-Saaz for another pilsner.
> B-Saaz makes a very nice pilsner on its own...


I have quite a few other hops in the freezer also. Might bitter with some Target, would like to be able to compare the different Saaz in different batches.


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## drtomc (22/9/08)

I've just finished reading Brew Like a Monk, and it looks like more than one of the Trappist breweries use hop oils rather than fresh/pellets/etc. But then, their beers are not hop driven, so it seems to work for them.

T.


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## gap (22/9/08)

drtomc said:


> I've just finished reading Brew Like a Monk, and it looks like more than one of the Trappist breweries use hop oils rather than fresh/pellets/etc. But then, their beers are not hop driven, so it seems to work for them.
> 
> T.



I also have just read Brew Like a Monk. 
Can you name one , who admits in tne book, that they use hop oils.

Regards

Graeme


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## drtomc (22/9/08)

gap said:


> I also have just read Brew Like a Monk.
> Can you name one , who admits in tne book, that they use hop oils.



Certainly not without the book in front of me. I'll have to check when I get home. I could be wrong, but I was pretty sure that at least one of them changed a few years ago and no longer use whole hops.

T.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (22/9/08)

Boston said:


> I have quite a few other hops in the freezer also. Might bitter with some Target, would like to be able to compare the different Saaz in different batches.



Boston, what other high alpha hops do you have aside from Target? It is a great hop in English Ales and the like but I would think it too aggresive in a Pils.

C&B
TDA


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## Frank (22/9/08)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> Boston, what other high alpha hops do you have aside from Target? It is a great hop in English Ales and the like but I would think it too aggresive in a Pils.
> C&B
> TDA


Other hops in the freezer are:
Cascade, Amarillo, Chinook, Nelson Sauvin, and Southern Cross.


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (22/9/08)

If it were me I would use the Southern Cross as your bittering hop and one of your Saaz varieties for flavour and aroma.
I used Southern Cross in a CAP earlier this year and bittered to 28IBU, it certainly isn't harsh for a hop so high in AA.
That would be what I would do anyway. Good luck.

C&B
TDA


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## moetman (3/10/08)

Zwickel said:


> hmmm.... the final taste of a good Pilsener does not only depends on the hops flavours, it depends also on the mash schedule.
> 
> let me say it in short words: if youre going to produce a dry and crispy Pilsener, the hops flavours should not be masked by an overly malty wort.



Hi Zwickel, Could you tell me 'how' you achieve a wort that is not overly malty? Is it only through the hop schedule ? What kind of mash schedule do you need for a good crispy Pilsener?


Have been following this thread on the production of melanoidins:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=25554

Could an overly strong boil lead to an overly malty wort? 

Regards


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## Frank (3/10/08)

The final Hop Schedule was:
Southern Cross 15.9% AA, 60min, 20.1 IBU
Czech Saaz '07 4.0% AA, 20min, 11.0 IBU
Total 31.1 IBU

Fermenting for a week now, looking forward to the first taste.
Thanks for the advice.


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## Zwickel (3/10/08)

moetman said:


> Hi Zwickel, Could you tell me 'how' you achieve a wort that is not overly malty? Is it only through the hop schedule ? What kind of mash schedule do you need for a good crispy Pilsener?



sure I can tellya: as you know, the most of fermentable sugar is built by the beta amylase that has its peak at around 63C.
the more starch is converted by the beta amylase, the drier your beer becomes.

My mash schedule is as follows:
doing a protein rest for around 15 to 20min. at 52C, just to produce amino acids that is necessary for a healthy yeast grow
rest for 40 to 45min at 63C (beta amylase rest)
rest for 20 to 30min at 72C (alpha amylase rest)
rise the temp to 78C and mashout.



> Could an overly strong boil lead to an overly malty wort?


No



Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## stieger (5/10/08)

Hi,

Zwickel, curious about your mashing schedule? Is that a decoction or an infusion mash?

Also, what fermentation temps and times do you follow? Primary Fermentaion>Secondary Fermentation>Racking>Lagering.

The reason why i am asking is i am after a schedule that results in the least amount of esters as i am doing pilsners.

Cheers mate,

Ryan


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## Hogan (5/10/08)

Zwickel said:


> +1
> 
> more than 90% of my beers are Pilseners and all the time I do only two additions: right after the hotbreak Im adding the bittering hops (just take the hops with its highest alpha acid) and 15min. before flameout Im adding the aromatic hops. Thats all.
> 
> Cheers :icon_cheers:




Hi Zwickel - are you doing a 90 or 60 minute boil?

Cheers, Hoges.


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## Zwickel (5/10/08)

gday mates,



stieger said:


> Zwickel, curious about your mashing schedule? Is that a decoction or an infusion mash?


thats an infusion mash, you may have a look into the blog section, there you can see my equipment.


> Also, what fermentation temps and times do you follow? Primary Fermentaion>Secondary Fermentation>Racking>Lagering



Im pitching the yeast at around 8 to 10C, leave it fermenting for 6 days at around 8C, then racking into kegs, leave it for another 3 days at 8C, then successive lower the temp until 0C is reached. Lagering for at least 4 weeks.



Hogan said:


> Hi Zwickel - are you doing a 90 or 60 minute boil?
> 
> Cheers, Hoges.



I do 90min boil all the time and all of my beers

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Hogan (5/10/08)

Zwickel said:


> Im pitching the yeast at around 8 to 10C, leave it fermenting for 6 days at around 8C, then racking into kegs, leave it for another 3 days at 8C, then successive lower the temp until 0C is reached. Lagering for at least 4 weeks.
> 
> 
> I do 90min boil all the time and all of my beers
> ...



Two queries here thanks Zwickel.


What yeast are you using that you can pitch at 8-10c and gets a final gravity of 1008 ?


So you are boiling your bittering hops for around 80 minutes.


Cheers, Hoges.


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## kook (5/10/08)

Hogan said:


> What yeast are you using that you can pitch at 8-10c and gets a final gravity of 1008 ?



Although I can't speak for Zwickel, i'd suspect that this has more to do with pitching rates than the strain itself. Zwickel has posted pictures of huge yeast slurries in the past (Link).


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## Zwickel (6/10/08)

Hogan said:


> Two queries here thanks Zwickel.
> What yeast are you using that you can pitch at 8-10c and gets a final gravity of 1008 ?
> So you are boiling your bittering hops for around 80 minutes.
> Cheers, Hoges.


The yeast Im using comes from a brewery near Frankfurt, its the Binding Brewery. Friend of mine gave it to me.
Also Im using a yeast strain that comes from the Jever Brewery in northern Germany.

Both of them are high flocculating and they produce a very clear beer; the yeast falls like lead to the bottom.
To achieve a high attenuation, one needs a high pitching rate, as Kook wrote:



kook said:


> Although I can't speak for Zwickel, i'd suspect that this has more to do with pitching rates than the strain itself. Zwickel has posted pictures of huge yeast slurries in the past (Link).


yeah, thats right, have a look 







Also I gotta say, that it is necessary to have a well airated and nutritous wort. The airation is easy to do, have a look:
 here  
for the nutrition Im doing the so called protein rest. Id like to emphasize, Im not doing the protein rest for head retention or similar things, Im doing it only to feed the yeast with amino acids thats built during the protein rest. I think thats a very important point to get a low FG.

So in the end, maybe you wouldnt love that beer much, because there is no malty taste, not at all, nothing but hops taste......and it makes you drunk 

For Ale-Lovers, like Australians, it will be way too dry methinks.

Cheers mates :icon_cheers:


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## Zwickel (6/10/08)

Hogan said:


> So you are boiling your bittering hops for around 80 minutes.


Sorry Hogan, Ive forgotten:

I start counting the time when Ive added the hops, that means 90min boil of the hops, 100min altogether.

With a 90min boil it is easier for me to calculate the IBUs. Im using the Glenn Tinseth formula to calculate the IBUs, so Im gonna get an yield of ~25% when the boil lasts for 90min.

For example: one is using 100g hops containing an AA of 10% (=10g AA). After a 90min boil, 2.5g (25%) of the AA will be isomerized into the wort.

1mg of isomerized AA in 1litre= 1IBU

So in a 100liter batch that 2500mg isomerized AA would lead to 25IBU

Cheers mate :icon_cheers:


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## bconnery (6/10/08)

Zwickel said:


> Also Im using a yeast strain that comes from the Jever Brewery in northern Germany.



Zwickel, when you say you are using the Jever strain, is this another one you've been given by a mate, or is one of the available liquid strains reputed to be from possibly my favourite pilsner?


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## Zwickel (6/10/08)

bconnery said:


> Zwickel, when you say you are using the Jever strain, is this another one you've been given by a mate, or is one of the available liquid strains reputed to be from possibly my favourite pilsner?


thats also a strain that has been given to me from a mate who lives close to the Jever brewery. So far all of my yeast strains are given from some breweries around here.

Cheers


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## bconnery (6/10/08)

Zwickel said:


> thats also a strain that has been given to me from a mate who lives close to the Jever brewery. So far all of my yeast strains are given from some breweries around here.
> 
> Cheers


Ah well. Not that it's that important I was just curious. I plan to have a stab at approximating a pilsner like Jever because it is possibly my favourite and my dad has been converted recently. 
Even in the bottle here in Australia I thought it maintained it's quality.
I haven't had it in Germany but tried it for the first time in the UK a couple of years ago. 

I'll do some reading when the time comes from me to design a recipe but if you've got any info on the yeast or the beer, outside of IBU levels, feel free to swing it my way


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## Josh (6/10/08)

Zwickel said:


> sure I can tellya: as you know, the most of fermentable sugar is built by the beta amylase that has its peak at around 63C.
> the more starch is converted by the beta amylase, the drier your beer becomes.
> 
> My mash schedule is as follows:
> ...


Just curious about the mash schedule. Do you find you get much from the alpha amylase rest? I thought 40-45 minutes would be long enough for the beta amylase rest to convert just about all of the starch?

What would be a good time to up the temp if you wanted a more malty beer?


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## Batz (6/10/08)

Josh said:


> Just curious about the mash schedule. Do you find you get much from the alpha amylase rest? I thought 40-45 minutes would be long enough for the beta amylase rest to convert just about all of the starch?
> 
> What would be a good time to up the temp if you wanted a more malty beer?




I'll say in this case it would be best to follow it and see,exactly what I'll will do next pilsner.

I think the only answer you'll be happy with is the one you brew and drink,(or I brew and drink) good luck with it,I am using Summer Saaz

Batz


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## Zwickel (6/10/08)

Hello Josh,


Josh said:


> Just curious about the mash schedule. Do you find you get much from the alpha amylase rest? I thought 40-45 minutes would be long enough for the beta amylase rest to convert just about all of the starch?


No, you never get all of the starch konverted. If you want to get a more malty beer, Id suggest to skip the protein rest and do a 30min beta- and also a 30min alpha amylase rest, or just do a 60min single infusion mash with a temp somwhere between.


> What would be a good time to up the temp if you wanted a more malty beer?


see above

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## bradsbrew (6/10/08)

Zwickel said:


> Hello Josh,
> 
> No, you never get all of the starch konverted. If you want to get a more malty beer, Id suggest to skip the protein rest and do a 30min beta- and also a 30min alpha amylase rest, or just do a 60min single infusion mash with a temp somwhere between.
> 
> ...


So a protein rest is 48 to 52. what temp is beta and what temp is alpha amylase?


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## Zwickel (6/10/08)

bradsbrew said:


> So a protein rest is 48 to 52. what temp is beta and what temp is alpha amylase?


as Ive written earlier in this thread: protein rest at 52C
beta amylase at 63C
alpha amylase at 72C


:icon_cheers:


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