# Same Problem With Us-05 Yeast - Stalled Again...



## Mitcho89 (6/11/10)

Hey guys,

Got a rather lazy/simple brew going on. Brigalo Pilsner and BE1+250g dex using us-05 yeast. I just got myself a keg/c02 system so I wanted an easy batch to experiment with in kegs. This is the 3rd time I've had this problem, the yeast stalling at about 1016-20 with us-05. For the amount of fermentables in the BE1, I'd expect 1010 or lower. I guess going to kegs I don't have to worry about bottle bombs but it would still be nice to work out why this bloody yeast stalls all the time for me. I pitch it at about 22 then bring the temp down to 19-20 and let it sit there. At the moment it's at 24 just to try and bring things to life. It'll be 2 weeks on wednesday and it's at 1020 now. 

Any information will be great. Thank you!


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## pk.sax (6/11/10)

So, you've raised temps. I suspect given it a bit of a shake/swirl too. You could try carefully racking to a sanitary secondary. It will obviously give the yeasts a little more oxygen to play with. I've found US05 to be sluggish the one time I simply pitched the rehydrated dry yeast. Pitching washed slurry gave me no stalled fermentation so I am suspecting the yeast struggles to grow to an active fermentation cell count in plain old wort.

This is very narrow experience though, I've only used us05 twice, once out of the packet and once slurry, the slurry was in the fridge for a month but chomped my wort down in 4-5 days. The dry packet took forever at 1016.


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## manticle (6/11/10)

I rarely have trouble with 05 but I'm pretty patient with my fermenting beer.

Do a fast ferment test to see where it should get to.
Read the articles section for articles on tips and tricks for stalled fermentation
Last resort pitch new yeast but make an active starter with it (ie don't just sprinkle dry yeast on top).


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## praxis178 (6/11/10)

practicalfool said:


> So, you've raised temps. I suspect given it a bit of a shake/swirl too. You could try carefully racking to a sanitary secondary. It will obviously give the yeasts a little more oxygen to play with. I've found US05 to be sluggish the one time I simply pitched the rehydrated dry yeast. Pitching washed slurry gave me no stalled fermentation so I am suspecting the yeast struggles to grow to an active fermentation cell count in plain old wort.
> 
> This is very narrow experience though, I've only used us05 twice, once out of the packet and once slurry, the slurry was in the fridge for a month but chomped my wort down in 4-5 days. The dry packet took forever at 1016.




Yep I prefer to use slurry from a previous run with 05 if I have to use it. Otherwise I build a big starter (4L over 2-3days) crash chill it and decant the old wort and pitch the new slurry. Not as fast using an actual slurry but much better than just pitching the dry yeast....

As for getting it going again: rack to secondary and she should fire up again.


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## ekul (6/11/10)

Why do kits and extract beers always stall? When i was making extract beers i reckon 20% of my beers would have stalled at 1018-1020. Since going AG i have not had this problem.


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## Brewindo (6/11/10)

practicalfool said:


> So, you've raised temps. I suspect given it a bit of a shake/swirl too. You could try carefully racking to a sanitary secondary. It will obviously give the yeasts a little more oxygen to play with. I've found US05 to be sluggish the one time I simply pitched the rehydrated dry yeast. Pitching washed slurry gave me no stalled fermentation so I am suspecting the yeast struggles to grow to an active fermentation cell count in plain old wort.
> 
> This is very narrow experience though, I've only used us05 twice, once out of the packet and once slurry, the slurry was in the fridge for a month but chomped my wort down in 4-5 days. The dry packet took forever at 1016.



Just fermented 2 batches with US-05. Goes like a champ. Both started at 1052ish and both finished at 1011ish at 17-18degs. Airlock activity slow to just a few blips within 4 days.


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## manticle (6/11/10)

Extract brews (different from kits) are more likely to finish high as opposed to stalling. Something to do with free amino nitrogen (FAN) levels from beer addled slightly vague memory.

I never had trouble with kits but most extracts I did finished around 1016-1018 unless extra strong or containing unfermentables (had a cream stout finish at 1030 despite using every conceivable trick in the book - no bottle bombs but it took me a long time before I convinced myself she was done).

Almost every AG hits 1008-1012 regardless of mash temp. Again cream stouts are closer to 1020. Funny because my ciders with lactose still hit 1000 or so.


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## pk.sax (6/11/10)

Yes, the dry pitch was a kit + extract can and the slurry was pitched into my first stovetop AG. Might have made all the darn difference.

PS: Manticle, none of the three ciders I made have hit 1000. Lowest I ever got was 1004, none of them were the same but same yeast. Actually,..... Demijohns are empty now.... Mmmmmmm, I and everybody I gave it really liked the cloudy apple cider, might make again


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## wessmith (6/11/10)

Guys, Try adding some yeast nutrient to all your brews. You can never be sure what the maker of the kit wort did so try the nutrient. Sluggish ferments are usually a sign of a stressed yeast lacking something.

Wes


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## dr K (6/11/10)

wessmith said:


> Guys, Try adding some yeast nutrient to all your brews. You can never be sure what the maker of the kit wort did so try the nutrient. Sluggish ferments are usually a sign of a stressed yeast lacking something.
> 
> Wes


 Agree, kit malt base is usually low in FAN and nutrient usually contains DAP. I use yeast nutient in al my all grain brew, it decreases lag time, gives a healthier ferment and reduces the dread diacetyl
That being said what was your SG? Lets say you got 70% attenuation which is ok, do you really stall at 1016 or has the yeast finished. 1054 OG @ 70% = 1016 FG, even at 75% its up there at 1014. US05 is decribed by the manufacturer as having a medium FG..relax, you know the rest!!

K


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## O'Henry (7/11/10)

+1, FAN levels, yeast nutrient, aeration and pitching amount. 

For higher FAN levels, drop the amount of adjuncts. You could try doing a partial mash or even just steeping some crystals will help. 
Yeast nutrient might help to get the cell count up.
Ensure the wort is well aerated before pitching. Almost impossible to over aerate in a HB set-up.
Ensure there is an adequate amount of yeast being pitched. Mr Malty is a good calculator for this.


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## Mitcho89 (12/11/10)

Alright guys I'm about to rip my hair out. I have a batch of amber ale using liquid amber malt and the other is a gold style of lager (using ale yeast I know) with a tin of lager malt. I used the same yeast, the Safbrew s-33 in both....pitched and stirred at 24C and let sink to 20C and both have f**king stopped at 1020. Fermentation kicked off lovely with a large crausen and good bubbling and then just...stopped. Surely I must be something wrong.... Could it be that I don't just sprinkle it on and leave the yeast, I completely mix it through the wart to aerate as much as possible. Should I have just sprinkled it ontop of the wart head?


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## pk.sax (12/11/10)

dude, did you catch the tip about using yeast nutrient in all that above??

I suppose you could pitch half a sachet more in each with some sanitised nutrient now...


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## Snow (12/11/10)

Mitcho89 said:


> Alright guys I'll about to rip my hair out. I have a batch of amber ale using liquid amber malt and the other is a gold style of lager (using ale yeast I know) with a tin of lager malt. I used the same yeast, the Safbrew s-33 in both....pitched and stirred at 24C and let sink to 20C and both have f**king stopped at 1020. Surely there must be something wrong.... Could it be that I don't just sprinkle it on and leave the yeast, I completely mix it through the wart to aerate as much as possible. Should I have just sprinkled it ontop of the wart head?


You need to rehydrate the yeast before you pitch it. There's plenty of instructions on this here. If you MUST sprinkle it straight into the wort, don't stir it in as this allows the sugar to put too much osmotic pressure on the cell walls.

Also, how healthy is your yeast? Has it been stored in the fridge at the HB shop? It might be old and stressed....

Cheers - Snow


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## Snow (12/11/10)

practicalfool said:


> dude, did you catch the tip about using yeast nutrient in all that above??
> 
> I suppose you could pitch half a sachet more in each with some sanitised nutrient now...


Unless it's a highgravity wort, he won't need nutrient, using dry yeast.

Cheers - Snow.


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## Mitcho89 (12/11/10)

My local HB has all his yeast sitting in the fridge and it's never moved. When he gets it from his supplier, it's kept in a cold box for transportation. Sorry about the freak out, I just don't want to have to bin 70 bucks worth of beer! What's the go with this yeast nutrient?


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## MrWombles (12/11/10)

[quote name='Thomas J.' date='Nov 6 2010, 02:33 PM' post='700737''

As for getting it going again: rack to secondary and she should fire up again.
[/quote]

Totally agree - When the yeast has a holiday, in the past I have racked it to a secondary and few days later all is good. You will hear both the pros and cons of racking into a secondary, but if your clean, this should solve the yeast resting.


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## Mitcho89 (12/11/10)

I double sterilize everything, first I do it in Sodium met, thorough rinse and then no-rinse. I just don't know why this problem keeps happening these days. So there is no difference between sprinkling and mixing?


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## Mitcho89 (12/11/10)

Ok guys sorry to double post but I'm going to rack it off and throw in a starter. It's about a liter with about 80-100grams of sugar in there. Fingers crossed......


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## eamonnfoley (12/11/10)

Alkaline /chlorinated water could be playing a part in this too. Try using RO/distilled water with your extract beers. All the required minerals are contained within the malt extract. Also make sure you rehydrate the dry yeast preferably in spring water.


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## pk.sax (12/11/10)

@ snow, he is doing it all out of extract and cans. Might be low in nutrient there. Well, looks like it because it's fermented but stalled saying there was not enough grunt in the yeast 'present' in the fermenter right now to do the job. Leads me to assume that yeast didn't get to grow enough in the beginning. Well, that's what I faced with my first kit beer, second I used nutrient and it worked just fine  not much change in type of ingredients b/w the two. Actually, bought nutrient for ciders and threw a bit into beer just in case and it made all the difference. Tasted better too, none of the estery and yeasty smells from the yeast being tree too long. And both ferments were roughly he same time period, abt 3 weeks, second was also racked at 1016. Can't say it's one thing but either/both could be. Yeah? Correct ke if wrong mate. Thnx


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## MrWombles (12/11/10)

foles said:


> Alkaline /chlorinated water could be playing a part in this too. Try using RO/distilled water with your extract beers. All the required minerals are contained within the malt extract. Also make sure you rehydrate the dry yeast preferably in spring water.



You make a really good point there.. I remember at the HomeBrew Conference in Melbourne a couple of weeks back talking about water chemistry and the like affecting brew outcomes (Got a bit deep and was talking about mashing mainly and adding Ca+ etc to affect pH) but Chlorine does inhibit mould, so it goes to say it would inhibit yeast as well. When I have cleaned my gear, I give it a rinse of hot water straight from the kettle before putting my brew in there. 
Hope the brew gets going for you again...


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## Mitcho89 (12/11/10)

Cheers for the good advice lads. I just threw in some Yeast Nutrient, gave her a good stir and let it warm up by 2C' to get it going. If that doesn't work I'll rack it off, and if that doesn't work I'll throw in a starter as a last result. Cheers!


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## O'Henry (12/11/10)

The nutrient is really used in the growth phase, so adding after it has stalled may not help. However, adding a starter with some nutrient in it might work. 

As for re-hydrating, don't use distilled water as this can stress the poor yeasties.


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## Mitcho89 (13/11/10)

I just made a yeast starter over a day and a half and through it in just after it crausened. there is plenty of nutrient now in the beer and the temperature is a constant 21C' so I'll wait 2 weeks and hope for the best!


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## goomboogo (13/11/10)

I've just skimmed through the thread so if it's been mentioned already and I've missed it, I apologise. Have you checked your hydrometer in water? If taking gravity samples from the tap, are you discarding the initial quantity from the tap as debris may be affecting the reading?


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## Mitcho89 (13/11/10)

Yeah I've tested it in water and it seems to be fine. I throw out every sample I take from the tap. I'm getting rather doubtful this yeast starter will take off


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## Hargie (13/11/10)

....Gday mate , maybe DrK is right , what is your OG ?...maybe you have reached you attenuation limit @1.018-20...

...maybe the extract is not as fermentable as it could be and also you are using dextrose which will not ferment but give you body,mouthfeel and head retention and maybe you are using too much....the equivalent in allgrain would be : mashing too high or using too much carapils and/or crystal malts....

...US-05 is fkn near bomb proof and if you've had the same result with a couple of different yeast strains its time too start looking at wort fermentability/attenuation limits....

...for your next brew try fermenting a litre or so of the wort in a clean jar, whack a big table spoon of the dry yeast into it, shake the shit out of it, let it ferment out at room temp....will only take a day or two....called a forced fermentation test and will show you what you can expect your attenuation limit for that wort to be...
...ie...if the wort in the jar stops at 1.020 then you can expect the big wort to finish around the same FG...
..hope this helps...

Cheers 
Scott


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## goomboogo (14/11/10)

Hargie said:


> and also you are using dextrose which will not ferment but give you body,mouthfeel and head retention and maybe you are using too much



Scott, are you sure you don't mean corn syrup? Dextrose is highly fermentable. However, I agree with the possibility that this may be a wort fermentability issue but it's hard to say without knowing all the ingredients being used.


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## Bongchitis (14/11/10)

My knk's and extract brews always finnished higher than I had hopped regardless of the yeast I used. This was before I learnt about adding simple sugars to increase the fermentability of these worts and then onto AG where i don't have the issue anymore. Sounds like you just need to get a couple more % attenuation and you will be sweet (or dry as the case may be). At least it is happening consistently which means you must be doing something right.


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## Hargie (14/11/10)

goomboogo said:


> Scott, are you sure you don't mean corn syrup? Dextrose is highly fermentable. However, I agree with the possibility that this may be a wort fermentability issue but it's hard to say without knowing all the ingredients being used.



...oops...sorry, yeah, i was seeing dextrose and thinking dextrins....i had 2 IBD exams on friday and my brain was still fried yesterday....


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## Mitcho89 (14/11/10)

From now on I'll always use a starter for my brews just to avoid something like this happening again. I manage a local restaurant and my boss said I'm more then free to use his kitchen to try making AG batches. I'm pretty confident on the process now but I'd still love to find a good "AG for dummies" thread just to make sure I know 100%.

If anyone knows of a good simple one to start with, please let me know!

Thanks again for the great information. Much appreciated!


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## beau jasnos (14/11/10)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=44264

Try this mate. This is how ive been doing all my AG brews for the past 6 months. Cheap to get started and the instructions are simple to follow. Absolutely foolproof!


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## Mitcho89 (14/11/10)

That's fantastic! Exactly what I needed. Thanks a bunch Beau. My boss has 20L pots and a very cold fridge that fit them but I just have no idea where to get those bags! Where did you get yours? 

I keep forgetting the process. It's 90min at 66C' to get all the goodness out and then 60min with the grain removed and hops added just as it starts to boil?.....or was the temp at 75C' for the hop addition? 

Urgh this seems so daunting....

Cheers mate.


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## pk.sax (14/11/10)

1. Use bigger pot than 20L if available, saves a lot of farting around.
2. Voile for bag from spotlight or lincraft.
3. 66C steeping is called the mash, to convert and extract sugars
4. Boil is to hop it. Start adding hops as per schedule after it gets to rolling boil.

Seriously, try to use a bigger pot so you can adjust volumes and gravities before boiling.


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## Mitcho89 (14/11/10)

There is a 40L pot that would be perfect. With the hop additions (aimed at multi-hopping batches) it says 60min, 45min, 30min etc. I'm thinking that 60min is when you add the first of it at the boil, in 15 min time you then add the new ones and so on so forth. do you still keep the 60min ones in or are the hops swapped out? 

What do you mean by volumes and gravities? Meaning to add a mix of water to added sugar to get the gravity right? 

Sorry about the stupid questions. I must have spent 30 hours so far reading and watching demo's but until a couple of things are answered i'm still not 100% confident haha  

Can the grain be kept whole to extract the goodness or does it have to be grinded?


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## pk.sax (14/11/10)

Well, if you keep the gran whole, the husks of them will not allow the sugar in them (after the 66C mash converts the starch to sugar) to be extracted efficiently. The water cannot reah the soft insides and that is not desirable.

So, get them ground or grind yourselves. Try not to grind everything to dust or you will have trouble keeping much in the bag at all. Too fine of everything will try to leak out of the bag pores.

Hops, when they say 60 minutes, it means that the hops must be allowed to be steeped int he boiling wort for 60 minutes. 45 minute hops for 45 minutes and so forth. So, add your 60 minute hops when the wort achieves the rolling boil. Start your clockdown. 15 minutes later, if you add the 45 minute hops then they and the 60 minute hops will be finished boiling at the same time. Like cooking, you add the tender vegetables later for less time but don't remove the harder vegetables until the end. Get a hop bag from a brew shop or make your own with cloth fine enough but not too fine a weave.

Best thing would be to find your local brew club or local experienced brewers and go see them brew. This is how I started and I still have heaps of questions 2 brews later. You definitely need to be able to reason somethings out on your own to brew as you will never be able to ask someone else EVERY single question. Ask more experienced brewers what they think of your plan and go for it. Some things are just more fun played by the ear  plan what you can and improvise as required.


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## Mitcho89 (15/11/10)

Thanks for cleaning all that up, I really appreciate it. Looks like I'll be placing in an order for some grain and hops over the next day or so! I'll be sure to keep you posted in the near future for when I finally get an AG beer going. That recipe that was posted earlier in the thread looks like a good start but now that I know about hopping times, I don't think I'll have a problem with something a little more complex. 

Thanks again mate and happy brewing.


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## felten (15/11/10)

Have you read how to brew? It's a fantastic beginners resource if you haven't.


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## Mitcho89 (18/11/10)

I wouldn't say I'm new to brewing by any means but I haven't exactly moved out of my comfort zone with the K&K. I've been reading myself stupid about AG brewing and I'm damn confident I'll hit the spot. Mash-in 60min at 64-66C (lower if you want a crisper beer) with a light quick stir every 15-20min then a 15min mash out at 75C', and then a sparge at 80C' once the mash liquid is drained, then a rolling boil for 60min with the addition of bittering hops straight away and then followed by any other hop additions at intivals your recipe states.

I'm assuming the mashout is used with BIAB unless you have enough room in your esky to throw in boiling water to raise the temp? Either way I'll try traditional esky AG and the BIAB and take notes and photo's and compare them both for clarity, flavour, body and head retention.


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