# Rims/brewtroller Brewery Upgrade



## mschippr (18/1/11)

Hi,

I have decided to upgrade my brewery to a RIMS three vessel system controlled by Brewtroller. I chose brewtroller since it works out to be a similar price once you consider buying two PID's and other components and allows for future growth.

I will make two new 50L vessels. One will be electric HLT and the other a gas heated kettle. I will use my existing kettle as a MLT with my existing beerbelly false bottom.

I've ordered my RIMS tube, 2x 2500w elements and pump (March 809) and need to order all my weldless fittings. What im having issues with is the best way to plumb the system. I will be using camlocks on the vessels and camlocks on the hoses.

The image below is the components in my system including vessels, pump, RIMS, and plate chiller. Can anyone suggest the best method to plumb the system so i dont have to reprime the pump, and if i should be using two way valves, etc.

Thanks,
Mark.


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## razz (18/1/11)

The good thing about using camlocks and silicon hose is being able to move your components around until you find the best format for your brewing. You will need to determine if you will have all three pots at the same level or one up and two down. With only one pump and a RIMS you will find that three pots at the same level can be problematic i.e. batch v's fly sparging. I'm not sure what you mean by two way valves?


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## raven19 (18/1/11)

Hi mate, not sure if you looked at my March Pump setup closely the other day, but I have an input on the inlet side of the pump for a standard hose to clip onto. This allows me to prime the pump easily anytime during the brew.

I just went with simple 3 piece ball valves rather than mucking around with 2 way valves, etc.

I also considered a hard plumbed solution, but after seeing a few other brewery setups including pics of Pumpy's latest, I went with just camlocks and hoses. Makes for easy changes on brew day and easy cleaning too.

Edit - There is a Pic here that sort of shows it - post #92.


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## hsb (18/1/11)

Does the kettle stand outside of the automated aspect of your RIMS? ie; You just dump your Wort into the kettle and when ready, fire up the gas and boil as usual? Or is that Brewtroller controlled as well?

I'm pondering making a (slow) start towards RIMS and have a similar setup to yours, will bookmark this thread, best of luck. Personally, I'm inspired by getting a bit fed up of the hassle of hitting Mash temps using a HLT with over-the-side Immersion element that is always tricky and rarely consistent (though still turns out decent brews)


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## MeLoveBeer (18/1/11)

Everyone is different, but if you're setting it up as a 2 tier, then I was going to put together something like this. If you are looking at putting together a 2 tier, Screwtop has an awesome setup well worth replicating.

Since that original thread, I've taken my plans in a totally different direction and am going single tier automated (with the ECC BCS-462)


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## mschippr (18/1/11)

As much as i dont like to be a "copy cat" i really like raven19's 2 tier brew stand so i will probably try something similar. The only consideration i will have is to position the gas burner for my kettle a safe distance away from anything that could burn. I would like to make the system nice and compact but also practical.. haha.

I dont really want to hard plumb much, im happy with going the hose route. I ordered the 809 PL-HS march pump and a 815 impeller for it. Theres some threads around from the guys at march saying it'll give a good headroom increase which may help with wort velosity in the RIMS also. FYI, im no scientist or engineer for that matter. 

I dont plan on automating the kettle side of the brewery at this stage.

When i said "2 way valves" i meant those ones with three outputs but realise now i used the wrong name. 

I had planned on ordering some silicon hose but it adds too much to the weight in shipping, i'll stick with my wire wound hose with the cam locks.

Raven any chance you can take a closer pic of your pump plumbing for me? Looks like a good setup, your definately more of an "engineering" type than myself.


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## razz (18/1/11)

You sound like you know what you're doing Mark, good luck. For the cost of three way valves you can get between 2 or 3 (or even 4) regular s/s valves.


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## mschippr (18/1/11)

Pictured are shiney bits from my existing system that will be used. The kettle in the picture i was never really happy with due to its width, I got about 20% boil off which was annoying. It will make a much better MLT. 

Pictured is my existing system ready for a brew. I'll still use some components of it also. The esky will be reused for carrying beer to BBQ's and the like.


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## raven19 (18/1/11)

mschippr said:


> Raven any chance you can take a closer pic of your pump plumbing for me? Looks like a good setup, your definately more of an "engineering" type than myself.



Should not be a problem mate, will get something posted up this week.


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## Thirsty Boy (19/1/11)

Is it your intention to pump wort through the plate chiller, or are you going with gravity? That'll make a difference.

If i cool, i do so via gravity, and therefore i dont actually have to re-prime the pump at any time during the brew. Just the initial prime and then the pump stays primed for the whole brew till the kettle is full. (adding sparge water to the lauter tun by grravity)

So i dont see any need (or at least dont need myself) any fancy three way valves or extra inlets etc.

Oh, i also think you will be better served by using pt100 or cu50 RTds as your sensors rather than thermocouples, they are far more accurate in the range of temperatures you need for mashing. I'm using thermocouples and the work OK but have some cu50s waiting to be installed because i thionk they are going to give me significantly tighter temp control. Although, i have no idea whether they are the appropriate sensor types for the brewtroller.


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## technoicon (19/1/11)

just to jump in on this thread a little.. reading the specs on most silicon hose's they are only rated for 65C. do they work fine at higher temps? 80-100C?

I want to build a similar system


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## WarmBeer (19/1/11)

Awesome Fury said:


> just to jump in on this thread a little.. reading the specs on most silicon hose's they are only rated for 65C. do they work fine at higher temps? 80-100C?
> 
> I want to build a similar system


Are you sure you're not confusing silicon hose with the clear vinyl hose you can get from Big Green Shed?

Food grade silicon is rated to far above 100 deg, the specs on one of the sponsors sites says -100F to 500F (-73C to 260C).

I personally wouldn't use the vinyl hose in my brewing even if it was food safe, as it tends to collapse on itself when warm, making transfers difficult.


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## technoicon (19/1/11)

I was looking at the "Helical Wire wound PVC hosing" from beer belly. the grain and grape stuff is what I want.


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## mschippr (19/1/11)

In the picture the hose i have is Helical Wire wound PVC hosing from beerbelly.

Its rated at 65 degrees but seems to be ok so far pumping 100 degree stuff through it. I would like some silicon hose but im not sure where to get it in Australia. 

Can anyone recommend a cheap silicon hose retailer?


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## MeLoveBeer (19/1/11)

Awesome Fury said:


> the grain and grape stuff is what I want.



I regularly use the 1/2" stuff from G&G right through my brew rig with boiling liquid and its fine.


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## WarmBeer (19/1/11)

Awesome Fury said:


> I was looking at the "Helical Wire wound PVC hosing" from beer belly. the grain and grape stuff is what I want.


Yep, that's the stuff you want. Just be sure to "measure twice, cut once", at $20 per metre you don't want to order your lengths only to find they're 50mm too short for your setup 

Edit: Craftbrewer has it slightly cheaper, but cost of delivery for me makes G&G the overall bargain winner


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## mschippr (20/1/11)

Ok, I put in the order for the fittings today, im using NPT for the new vessels due to price. I'll reuse my BSP fittings for the pump, MLT, and chiller but will need to get a couple of new BSP fittings to complete the requirements.

Does anyone have these fittings spare they want to sell? 

7x SS Hose Clamps
4x Camlock F
1x Female T Piece
1x 90 Degree Male/Female

I've put a new copy of the working diagram below also:


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## raven19 (20/1/11)

Awesome Fury said:


> I was looking at the "Helical Wire wound PVC hosing" from beer belly. the grain and grape stuff is what I want.



I can confirm the silicon hose works fine in my brewery and I pump boiling wort through it to sanitise my chiller towards the end of the boil.


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## raven19 (20/1/11)

mschippr said:


> Can anyone recommend a cheap silicon hose retailer?



You dont want cheap mate, you want quality hoses. I used Craftbrewer when I ordered a heap of other goodies a while back.

Rest assured the hoses if looked after will last a long time.


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## mschippr (20/1/11)

raven19 said:


> You dont want cheap mate, you want quality hoses. I used Craftbrewer when I ordered a heap of other goodies a while back.
> 
> Rest assured the hoses if looked after will last a long time.



Are the craftbrewer silicon 1/2" hoses (12.95/m ) the same quality as the grain and grape version (19.95/m)?


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## themonkeysback (20/1/11)

mschippr said:


> Are the craftbrewer silicon 1/2" hoses (12.95/m ) the same quality as the grain and grape version (19.95/m)?



Mate, since you are in Adelaide, you could buy the 1/2" heavy duty silicone hose from beerbelly. They don't have it on their website, but i have bought it from them before. Can't remember the per metre price, but I am sure it was less than 20 bucks (somewhere around 12-15 bucks from memory).

Adam.


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## raven19 (20/1/11)

A call to Amanda at Beerbelly would answer that one, I am not sure if the silicon hosing is the same or not. But if its silicon hose it should be a ok (I do know Wayne has the helical spring hosing for sure).


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## raven19 (26/1/11)

mschippr said:


> Raven any chance you can take a closer pic of your pump plumbing for me? Looks like a good setup, your definately more of an "engineering" type than myself.



Linky to pics mate.


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## mschippr (1/2/11)

So ive almost got all the bits i need to start the build. Just waiting on the RIMS tube which is on backorder (hopefully it will ship this week), then i can get it all consolidated and shipped to Australia. I still need a brewtroller kit but I'll get everything else assembled while i wait for my overtime to get paid to me. 

I ordered some pressure sensors which integrate into the brewtroller board to allow features like autofill, etc. I'll probably will use them down the track as another project after i have the system up and running.

I also ordered a H815 impreller for my march pump to give it a bit more grunt, its probably overkill but for $24 i thought it was worth it.


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## mschippr (11/2/11)

Placed my order for my "brain" last week, i got the new version of the Brewtroller board. Just need to wait for it to be delivered.

Brewtroller Board 4.0

Since im no sparky ive put out a call for quote on wiring up my seperate 240 volt enclosure also, I cant brew beer if im dead.


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## mschippr (16/2/11)

Here is my wiring diagram for the control enclosures. Obviously there may be some errors since i am not an electrician, but it will give an idea of what im planning.

I'm getting a proper electrician to wire the high voltage enclosure, im currently getting a couple of quotes while i wait for the parts to finish arriving.


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## browndog (16/2/11)

Interesting, is that a 12V bus the 3V power to the SSRs is coming from? should there not be a wire for each SSR coming from the controller?

cheers

Browndog


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## mschippr (16/2/11)

Hi, All the SSR's are tied to the 12 volt positive and the controller swiches them with the negative side. The power supply is 12 volts and has a max output of 3 amps. Thats what the brewtroller manual says anyway.


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## browndog (16/2/11)

mschippr said:


> Hi, All the SSR's are tied to the 12 volt positive and the controller swiches them with the negative side. The power supply is 12 volts and has a max output of 3 amps. Thats what the brewtroller manual says anyway.



Ah right, so obvious now you mention it, I wasn't looking for it as I was under the assumption that the active is always switched. Having said that I believe in DC there is no active and neutral. Zizzle...................... where are you mate.

-BD


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## mschippr (7/3/11)

I started work on the 12 volt dc main panel yesterday.

An electrician is going to wire up the 240 volt sub enclosure for me, damn electrians are expensive though.. 

I should receive all the gear i ordered this week.. cant wait.


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## mschippr (16/3/11)

Ok the stuff is here and i have started assembling the control panel and some basic plumbing.

In the normal guy fasion i also high flowed my 809 march pump with a 815 impeller, the before and after photos are below. 

More pics to come as i progress.


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## razz (16/3/11)

Looking good mschippr, where did you get the impeller from?


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## mschippr (16/3/11)

Hi, i ordered the 815 impeller when i ordered my 809 pump as part of the consolidated shipping i did, in hindsight i probably could have just bought the whole 815 pump instead for the same price. hindsight is a b#tch though. 

I got it from TESCO PUMPS in the US. Part# MAR 08090-107-0200. They are $24 plus shipping. Not sure how much they charge to ship just the impeller to OZ though, hopefully its not too expensive.

Thanks,
Mark.



razz said:


> Looking good mschippr, where did you get the impeller from?


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## ArnieW (17/3/11)

mschippr said:


> Hi, i ordered the 815 impeller when i ordered my 809 pump as part of the consolidated shipping i did, in hindsight i probably could have just bought the whole 815 pump instead for the same price. hindsight is a b#tch though.
> 
> I got it from TESCO PUMPS in the US. Part# MAR 08090-107-0200. They are $24 plus shipping. Not sure how much they charge to ship just the impeller to OZ though, hopefully its not too expensive.
> 
> ...


I've ordered just the impeller from TESCO. Their online cart is dodgy and they couldn't get it to charge me anything other than $49 for shipping so we did a manual paypal transfer - $24 impeller plus $14 for shipping. Completed the transaction this morning for $39.70 Aussie dollars.


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## mschippr (27/3/11)

More pics so far of the 12v main panel ive been building.

Ive got my hands on a flow switch (GEMS FS380) for the RIMS to disable the element when there is not wort flow, safety first.  The FLOW led goes on when there is flow (obviously).

The 240V enclosure should be done by the end of this week. The sparky is putting it together as we speak.

Since im in the process of moving house i cant weld the frame together.  Might start work in the vessels soon.


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## gava (1/6/11)

Any update on this? Im looking at moving towards a brewtroller 4.0 config.. still trying to figure out what i need..


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## mschippr (1/6/11)

Hi, 

I am still waiting on the sparky to deliver my high voltage enclosure. I expect it by the end of the week then i can put the vessels together, configure the firmware and give it a trial run.

Once i get the enclosure ill take some pics for you.


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## mschippr (3/6/11)

Ok, i got the 240vac panel and it powers up nicely. All i need to go is adjust a few things in my 12vdc panel and i can connect the elements and pump. 

Also need to drill the hole is the vessels and install the bulkhead fittings before i can do a test run.

The 240vac panel is much nicer than i expected. My 12vdc panel looks a bit ugly compared to it. haha.


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## gava (8/7/11)

if you dont mind me asking how much did it cost you to get a eletrician to wire up your 240 box?


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## mschippr (8/7/11)

Well, it ended up costing me $900 with some of the parts provided. Not cheap, but i value my life. 



gava said:


> if you dont mind me asking how much did it cost you to get a eletrician to wire up your 240 box?


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## mschippr (8/7/11)

I powered everything up yesterday for the first time on the panels. Seems ok but i need to rewire my switches on the 12VDC panel, seems my soldering skills could be improved. 

The vessel build has not started yet, im trying to find some time to start but the wife keeps finding me "other more important things to do around the house".

I am doing a welding course this month (something ive wanted to learn for a while) so i can start building the frame after that.


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## gava (8/7/11)

hells!!! thats a lot of kanga! hmmm time to find some sparky mates I think....


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## mschippr (10/7/11)

I've uploaded some new pics of the panels that are now 100% working. I've modified the connectivity between the panels to all run over one CAT6 cable and eliminated the seperate 12VDC lead. I dont think the gauge of the 24AWG CAT6 will be a problem, should be only about 1.5 amps max of 12VDC going through it.

All the switches have been rewired and are now working. I have a couple of cosmetic touchups i want to do with the RJ45 and USB ports, I'll use proper Neutrik USB and RJ45 sockets instead of nasty rough cut holes.


[URL="https://picasaweb.google.com/mschippr/Brewery30?authuser=0&feat=directlink"]https://picasaweb.google.com/mschippr/Brewe...feat=directlink[/URL]


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## gava (18/7/11)

Ordered my gear now just waiting on the new addition to the brewrig family.


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## mschippr (21/7/11)

Good luck, make sure you post lost of pics of the build. maybe you might be able to beat me to finishing. haha.


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## gava (23/7/11)

I dont have my moterised ball valves on this purchase that'll be stage 2.. just getting the control panel and eletrics sorted this stage... so by the end I'll have it controlling pump and all the elements, also will have level sensors with the bubbler setup..


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## gava (4/8/11)

how long did it take for your gear to arrive?


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## mschippr (4/8/11)

I had my brewtroller shipped to an american address because i was consolidating a bunch of stuff to send to OZ at once. Generally it should take between a week or two weeks via post.


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## mschippr (10/8/11)

Progress... Vessels are almost complete.

Next step is the stand, im considering a three tier tree type stand similar to the Blichmann brew stand, this will allow me to utilise gravity to perform some of the filling and draining - Less hose swapping.

More pics of my progress here: https://picasaweb.google.com/mschippr/Brewe...feat=directlink

Thanks.


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## NickB (10/8/11)

Looks awesome mate! I'm planning something similar in the (hopefully) not too distant future.... Slowly gathering the parts ATM.

Look forward to more progress pics!

Cheers


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## gava (11/8/11)

where did you get your probes?


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## mschippr (11/8/11)

I got them from brewers hardware. They require a drilled through compression fitting also, unless you have another way you would like to mount them. 

http://www.brewershardware.com/8-Temperatu...or-DS18B20.html


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## mschippr (25/9/11)

Today i got time to start welding up the frame based on my design with the help of ideas poached from a few nice setups ive seen. 

Its about half way there, still need to clean up some welds and add some extra bits.

Its mainly made from 40 rhs so i dont think its slightly over engineered but thats the way i like it.


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## yardy (26/9/11)

looks good, I'd be welding a gusset either side of that vertical post in the centre, 5mm plate if you have some.

cheers


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## mschippr (26/9/11)

sounds like a good idea to me, i think i have some 4mm plate otherwise i have more 25mm tubing i could use to reinforce it.


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## yardy (26/9/11)

if you go with the 25mm box section just weld it down the spine and onto the 40mm at the back of the frame, probably go with the 4mm gussets as well if that's going to support a 40lt HLT.

cheers


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## mschippr (8/2/12)

Ok, its almost done. Just need to make some silicon hoses up, touch up a few sh1tty welds, start calibrating levels, and water testing.

More pics are available on my picasa page (link is above somewhere).


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## gava (9/2/12)

nice bit of kit, Have you tested the pump mounted that high?


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## mschippr (9/2/12)

I only mounted the pump last night so i havn't had time to test it yet. I upgraded the impeller in the pump so hopefully it should have the grunt required to sort itself out. Time will tell.


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