# Best grains to buy



## poggor (5/12/14)

Im thinking of stopping ordering grain for each recipe and getting some supply. What grains do people think i should have on hand? what are the most versatile?
Obviously some kind of pale base malt? like a pilsner?... and then?.......
suggestions appreciated. 

g


----------



## _Mick_ (5/12/14)

Some MO definitely, maybe some Munich or Vienna.


----------



## mckenry (5/12/14)

Such an opened ended question 

Do you have a mill?

This is my opinion only. Pilsner malt is a good base to have around. You can make a good pilsner with it (surprise surprise) and good ales with some other malts. Not so if you only have ale malt base.

What I have is Pils, ale and wheat in bulk. Then about 1-5kg of various specialties, such as med crystal, dark crystal, choc and roast. I also keep a fair whack of vienna. You'll even find small amounts of rye, oats, caraamber, caraaroma and rice if you dig deep enough in my grain bins

So, unless you have a mill and airtight / rodent proof containers, keeping lots of grain is painful. Cracked grain slackens faster than whole.

So, versatile? Dark crystal. A little goes a long way for flavour and colour.
Everything has its place though, so youll need lots of different grains!


----------



## _Mick_ (5/12/14)

I agree, keeping them pest free can be a pain in the arese if you dont have good storage...
Im similar to mckenry, I always buy my spec grains in 5kg lots and have bulk supply of base malts + wheat.


----------



## CrookedFingers (5/12/14)

I usually roll with MO and trad ale in bulk.
Wheat and crystals in smaller lots.
I keep the base malts in my old 30L plastic fermenters. A 25kg sack just overfills the fermenter but the rest stays in the bag and gets used up quickly.


----------



## technobabble66 (5/12/14)

Hey poggor,

The first issue is what sort of beers will you be brewing? If you want to try anything, are there a few styles you might be focusing on a bit more?
And how much do you want to spend?
How much can you store?

I made a similar move ~1yr ago (then finally got my mill 3 mo's later - a painful wait!).
I also had similar questions, with the answer to my 1st question being kinda anything so i wanted to cover my options. This was also done as part of a Bulk Buy, so i went a bit overboard loading up on "bargains" (like i'll be needing all of 5kgs of Midnight Wheat over the next 20yrs!). Basically i went to the further end of versatility. You might not want that much to start with.

I went with something very similar to mckenry -
a bag of Maris Otter (seemed best for an Ale malt option),
a bag of Bohemian Pils (from Weyermann, seemed best for pils - still don't know on this),
then a 1/2 bag of wheat (i use a little to a lot in most beers),
1/2 bag of Vienna (pretty much not used, but that's just the recipes i've done so far - i should get around to it soon ... faux lagers & sparkling ales!),
1/2 bag of Munich 2 (somewhat excessive, but 5kgs would've been fine - a bit of Munich goes into so many things),
& 1/2 bag of Victory (great malt, but a little goes a long way).
I then went 5kgs into each of pale, Med, & dark crystal, CaraAroma, CaraBohemian, Chocolate, & Midnight wheat.

Now, in summary, i'd repeat the full bags of MO (going to try TF Floor Malted MO, or TFFMMO for those in the know  i'm told it's better than the simpsons), the boh pils, & the 1/2 bag of Wheat. The wheat could def be somewhat less - you could go for 5kgs unless you're brewing wheat beers etc soon. I brew more deeper/darker ales so the boh pils is a bit less important, but i've done a few varieties where the pils was needed, so after 1yr i've actually got a similar amount of each left.
All/Most of the specs i could've gotten 1-2kgs instead. Not too many recipes need more than 300g of a spec, and normally it might be 300-400g in total specs. i'd probably go the 2kg option. Except Midnight wheat or Black patent or Roast Barley - 1kg is truckloads. Munich i'd go 5kg.

That is how it's worked out for me, given the dozen or so beers i've brewed over the last 12 months. Your needs will obviously be different, but it hopefully gives you a decent illustration to go by.

Storage is *super* important. Mice = bad. Also it takes up a fair bit of space once you have 50-100kg of grain sitting in the house. Airtight containers are also best for general long-term storage purposes.

If you needed a cut-down version:
1 - bag of MO or another ale malt
2 - bag of Pils (only if you want an extra full bag) - adds versatility
3 - 5 kg wheat
4 - 3-5kg Munich
5 - 2kg of (each?) crystal - i do 3 crystal splits (so 300g med crystal becomes 75/150/75 pale/med/dark) but it's not necessary.
6 - 2 kg Biscuit/Victory - adds good aromatics
7 - 1kg something dark, i.e.: Black/Midnight/Roast barley

The other things like CaraAroma, CaraBoh, Chocolate, Vienna i'd suggest may or may not be relevant depending on exactly what you'll brew. Chocolate seems pretty common in recipes but i've just not used it yet. CaraAroma i've used in a few recipes, like Red Ales, so it's been a better choice for me.

While i clearly went a bit crazy on the malt purchases, i really love the fact i can dream up a recipe, wander into the spare room and measure out the grains at 11pm ready to brew the next day. No running to shops required! I kinda think if i have to go to the shops for 100g of something, i might as well have gotten the whole lot from the shops and have no grain stored at home. Bit extreme but it works for me.

Hope that overly long answer helps.


----------



## fraser_john (5/12/14)

Maris Otter or Golden Promise, Wyerman (.sp?) Pilsner or Best Maltz Pilsner, Wyerman Wheat & Munich are all things I like to buy in sack quantities through bulk buys or the like. Everything else in 500gm lots stored in airtight tubs, and I have a shit-load of them and I still have 500gm bags lying around that I don't have containers for yet!


----------



## _Mick_ (5/12/14)

If you have a vacume sealer (awesome investment) its a great way to store some of those not-so-often malts (smoked for example). Usually if i need an odd malt ill still buy around 1kg even if i only need 300g or so because you never know when i cracking recipe might pop in your head and you need it again.
Thats where the vac sealer comes in, shit will last years in vac bags if stored correctly.
I do the same with my hops, i only ever buy in 250-500g lots, vac seal and put those bad boys in the freezer.
Its all a money saving thing for me but the big bonus is a wide variety within arms reach.


----------



## poggor (5/12/14)

wow you guys! thanks for the awesome replies. technobabble- love the details! thanks for taking the time. 

I will get a 25kg bag of MO, a 25kg bag of pilsner, maybe 10kg of wheat (i like hefes) and then some 5kg bags, maybe vienna, crystals, and some midnight. 
I also have a vacuum sealer so that should be good!

....and a mill!!!

g


----------



## poggor (5/12/14)

what is the best mill to get?


----------



## Adr_0 (5/12/14)

Don't forget acidulated malt for the wheats and pils. 1-2kg should do it. 

Thomas Fawcett Roast Barley I have a kg of sealed up nicely... 

And Weyermann Carafa Special 1, a kg of this too. 


The answer really depends on your batch size, frequency etc. I would personally buy Vienna (Weyermann) in bulk and have a couple of kg of Munich II rather than a few kg of Munich I.


----------



## poggor (5/12/14)

Awesome. and any sealed bucket or similar should keep the rodents out right?


----------



## Adr_0 (5/12/14)

poggor said:


> Awesome. and any sealed bucket or similar should keep the rodents out right?


You really need a screwed lid. Rats will chew through the top of a floppy lid fairly easily. Will be ok for a while but when you notice a chewed hole they have probably already crawled all over your grain


----------



## Mr B (5/12/14)

Go metal bin over plastic if rodents are likely.

Bunnings has a 75l bin for $40. I put some Clarke rubber neoprene sticky stuff around the lid to keep cocky's etc out.

Millmaster mills are stainless, geared, and seem pretty good. Few sponsers stock them. Get a handle too or look at motors. mmmmm bit of searchin time there


----------



## Adr_0 (5/12/14)

By the way you should be right to throw the 1-2kg quantities in a container from Coles, with a seal ring around the lid.


----------



## Feldon (5/12/14)

Be clean mate. If you spill any grain sweep it up straight away. The smell of malted grain will attract rodents from far and wide, like a randy mongrel to a bitch on heat. They'll descend on your place like a plague.

Its easy when measuring out the grain bill to think those few grains that dropped on the floor don't matter. Well they probably don't as regards your recipe, but they will send fireworks into the sky attracting pests.

Metal containers are better than plastic for storing grain, but I reckon the cause of rodent problems for many people is that they leave the stuff lying around.


----------



## mckenry (5/12/14)

poggor said:


> what is the best mill to get?


Mashmaster mini mill. Geared.


----------



## technobabble66 (6/12/14)

+1 to feldon. Keep it all clean. 

Agree strongly w Adr_0. 
I actually got Munich 2, not 1, & I think I've noticed a worthwhile difference. 
Definitely, definitely get a kg (or maybe 2) of acidulated. It's the one really important thing I didn't initially get and have definitely needed in every brew. 100-150g into most recipes guarantees you'll be in the ballpark of the "right" pH. (It's somewhat more complicated than that, but it's a reasonable starting point, I believe. Get the EZ water profile spreadsheet for further brain smashing). 

I'd say a basic grain mill will do the job fine. 
A geared one is *definitely* significantly better, but also costs a fair bit more. Depends how tight you are with cash. I couldn't justify the extra $100-$150(?), so I got the basic. So far so good. 
Apparently the geared one tears up the hulls a lot less (?) so it makes for a better grain bed when mashing & sparging. I'm guessing if you BIAB it mightn't be as important.


----------



## rude (6/12/14)

Speaking of Best Maltz I just got 25kgs of it like Frazer John suggested above
But for APAs still like the Ale malt pommy bitters as well
Love Munchen (munich malt) you gotter have that and also ?????
The list goes on as for rodents screw the bag tight never had a problem


----------



## Markbeer (6/12/14)

always keep some one kill rat poison open around the place. they will eat that first and will be dead before getting to the grain.

and get some bottles if u keg. when u have too much specialty that may get old, it's RIS and barley wine time.


----------



## zarniwoop (6/12/14)

What's the actual cost saving of buying in bulk? I only brew every 4-6 weeks.


----------



## MastersBrewery (6/12/14)

This is the stack of spec, though there's another the same behind it.
I went a little nuts


----------



## Pogierob (6/12/14)

zarniwoop said:


> What's the actual cost saving of buying in bulk? I only brew every 4-6 weeks.


the difference on base malt can literally be a few dollars. 
As an example.
http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/search?search=joe+white

You will notice the more you order the cheaper it is. Then you also have bulk buys on here that tend.to make it cheaper again, especially if you get on the splits for the spec malts


----------



## Mardoo (6/12/14)

Generally in the bulk buys I haven't spent more than $2.50/kilo for base malt, and as low as $1.50 for the Australian ones. Specialties can get up to $3.75/kilo. You get some friends and split a bag, or many of the bulk buys have splits built in.

AS long as you store your grain in airtight containers it can easily last up to two years, particularly specialty malts. One year is totally reasonable for base malts. They need to be stored somewhere it doesn't get higher than the mid 20's. I just opened a container of well-stored 1 3/4 year old pale malt ready to chuck it out and found it was still crisp and fresh tasting, so I used it and the beer tastes good. Granted, I don't recommend or want to keep it this long, but it illustrates the point.

Bakeries often have buckets you can get for a few bucks. Places that sell moving boxes and self-storage places often sell storage buckets for a much better price than you can get at places like Bunnings. eBay is a good source too. Or surplus stores that sell the wide mouth water containers. I have some of those that make great storage buckets. Also chemical supply places go through lots of airtight buckets. The blue ones with the stainless locking ring are some of the best you can get.

Oh, and the mill question. I have one of the non-geared ones and it's great. However I do want to upgrade to one of the geared ones if I trip over a bundle of cash. If you have the money to spare, go geared. If not, there's plenty of fantastic and champion beers brewed on non-geared mills.


----------



## poggor (6/12/14)

wow thanks for all the feedback. how do i get onto the bulk buys for base malt? 
i will get a geared mill i think. sounds like an investment. 
definitely will get some acidulated. 

what are peoples preferred vendors for malt?


g


----------



## Spiesy (6/12/14)

When I first got into milling my own grain, pre-FP times, I went with:

*Base Malts*
JW Ale
JW Wheat
Weyermann Pils

*Speciailty *(half bags)
Weyermann Munich T1
Simpsons Crystal Medium

That covered most of my brewing needs, and I'd just order little amounts of specialty grain as needed (you generally have to order hops and yeast anyway). 

These days, I'd prob sub Thomas Fawcett Maris Otter for the JW Ale, Weyermann Premium Pilsner for the Pilsner and add a sack of Briess 2-Row.


----------



## poggor (6/12/14)

what's the difference between maris otter and briess 2 row?


----------



## Spiesy (6/12/14)

poggor said:


> what's the difference between maris otter and briess 2 row?


Pretty big difference.

Maris Otter is a variety of winter barley, grown in the UK. It is often regarded as a premium ale malt. Thomas Fawcett take it one step further and employ a "floor malting" process to it. Most often used in English Ales where you want to showcase the qualities of the malt.

Briess 2-Row is an American base malt that is rather unique. Closest equivalent would be pilsner malt. It is very light in colour, ferments out fairly dry and has a fairly neutral muted honey taste. Popular in American Ales, where it comfortably sits in the background allowing the hops to shine.


----------



## technobabble66 (6/12/14)

So Spiesy, 
what's the difference btw premium pilsner and Briess 2-row?

And btw Pils, boh pils, and premium pils, for that matter? (Other than colour, of course)


----------



## Spiesy (6/12/14)

technobabble66 said:


> So Spiesy,
> what's the difference btw premium pilsner and Briess 2-row?
> 
> And btw Pils, boh pils, and premium pils, for that matter? (Other than colour, of course)


Hey Stu,

I'm no expert mate - but Briess 2-Row really is quite a unique grain. In the sack, it's quite dry and flakey. Has a pretty neutral flavour profile. 
Premium Pilsner just seems to be a lighter colour compared to Pilsner, but it's a pilsner grain nonetheless. I always find pils malt to be a little "bightey", as opposed to an ale malt. But as mentioned earlier, I think there are certainly some comparisons that can be drawn between Briess 2-Row and a Pilsner Malt.

Other than colour, I'm not sure what the other difference is to Boh Pils malt - and I've never used it.


EDIT: clarified _Briess_ 2-Row (as opposed to general 2-row).


----------



## 4KingAle (6/12/14)

taking notes


----------



## spog (6/12/14)

poggor said:


> Im thinking of stopping ordering grain for each recipe and getting some supply. What grains do people think i should have on hand? what are the most versatile?
> Obviously some kind of pale base malt? like a pilsner?... and then?.......
> suggestions appreciated.
> 
> g


When I got into A G I started with buying small amounts of this,that,and the other,but living 600 + km from the the nearest brewing grain seller didn't work.
Eventually I bought in bulk,25 kg bags,I started with 2 bags of TF ale malt and 1 of wheat + bulk hops.
I experimented with different amounts and combinations and was very happy with the results .
Having only 1 type of ale malt I was limited with style,so to save money I snaffled an unwanted electric wall oven,built an enclosure for it and started home roasting my own " specialty malts" in my shed.
My home roasted malts while not the same as the professional products made a world of difference to the beers from then on.
As for storing 25 kg bags or grain I use small 25 litre wheelie bins from the cheap shop @ $10/$15.00 dollars each you can't go wrong,with wheels on them they are easy to move out of the way and the grain in the bag fits perfectly.
So,grab some cheapo wheelie bins,buy ale malt in 25 kg bags ,home roast your own special malts and your set like jelly,and you save.
For home roasting have a look at. Barley Pop Maker.com
Cheers....spog....


----------



## DU99 (6/12/14)

:icon_offtopic: Briess 2 Row has very high DiastaticPower,Smoother, less grainy flavor,
read this article

My base malt is currentlyTF maris otter,plus 11kg tubs of caramunich.1 /wheat.with small lots of specialty malts.in screw top plastic containers got from kmart..also keep an eye for Grain Bulk Buys


----------



## poggor (6/12/14)

just getting back to the container issue for base malts- what does everyone think is the best container for a 25kg bag of grain. and where can i get them? photos would be great!
Also, who buys their grain where?

g


----------



## Pogierob (6/12/14)

What state are you in mate?
Might make it easier for locals to give advice on where to get bulk grain.


----------



## poggor (6/12/14)

Melbourne here!


----------



## Pogierob (6/12/14)

Ok well then.

Here is a quick list of suppliers I have bought 25kg bags of grain from.

Full Pint - Heidelburg West http://www.fullpint.com.au/
(they occasionally run bulk buys on their website)

Grain and grape - Yarraville - http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/
Prices vary depending on quantity, but you get bulk buy (or close to) prices when ordering over 20kg of a certain malt

Core Brewing concepts - Dandenong South http://www.corebrewingconcepts.com.au/

They run a monthly bulk buy deal but it is targeting clubs or groups (10 bag minimum) but I think you can put your name down for less, it's just not guaranteed unless the quota is met by other brewers in that month.

There is also occasionally bulk buys posted on here.

I'm sure there is a heap of others but these are the people I have used in the last two years.


----------



## wereprawn (6/12/14)

spog said:


> When I got into A G I started with buying small amounts of this,that,and the other,but living 600 + km from the the nearest brewing grain seller didn't work.
> Eventually I bought in bulk,25 kg bags,I started with 2 bags of TF ale malt and 1 of wheat + bulk hops.
> I experimented with different amounts and combinations and was very happy with the results .
> Having only 1 type of ale malt I was limited with style,so to save money I snaffled an unwanted electric wall oven,built an enclosure for it and started home roasting my own " specialty malts" in my shed.
> ...



Hey spog,
I have looked into sacks of grain. Nearest i can find is 400 odd km away (Townsville) but they are expensive. I get my grain from National HB down in Hervey Bay (800 odd km). For large quantities P&H is the killer. How do you get around that so that it actually is cheaper.

Cheers


----------



## spog (6/12/14)

wereprawn said:


> Hey spog,
> I have looked into sacks of grain. Nearest i can find is 400 odd km away (Townsville) but they are expensive. I get my grain from National HB down in Hervey Bay (800 odd km). For large quantities P&H is the killer. How do you get around that so that it actually is cheaper.
> 
> Cheers


P&H is definitely a killer,I drive to Adelaide about twice a year,when I do I usually buy 4 or 5 x 25 kg bags , that would keep me going for a while.if I ran out of grain of was running low I would do partials or full kits to keep the stocks up.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (7/12/14)

Cararaoma is a bit of a must have if you anything slightly dark.


Word of warning...if you chew on it to see what it tastes like, then be prepared to have a big bag full of it :icon_drool2:


----------



## Spacecapsule (7/12/14)

Iuc


----------



## _Mick_ (7/12/14)

For storage, I use my old Army trunks, air/moisture tight seal and I can fit 3 full sacks per trunk. Obviously not everyone will have these lying around but you can buy similar commercially available ones at bunnings, BCF or somewhere similar. They can be a bit pricy but they work a treat. 
Will throw up a photo when I get off my arse and take one.


----------



## stm (9/12/14)

poggor said:


> just getting back to the container issue for base malts- what does everyone think is the best container for a 25kg bag of grain. and where can i get them? photos would be great!


2 x 20L handy pails from major hardware chain. Get some extra lids while you are at it.


----------



## mofox1 (9/12/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Cararaoma is a bit of a must have if you anything slightly dark.
> 
> 
> Word of warning...if you chew on it to see what it tastes like, then be prepared to have a big bag full of it :icon_drool2:


My kid loves caraaroma....


----------

