# Tips for Lager Brewing



## Hpal (15/3/17)

This is by no means an exhaustive list and there are probably many other points that could be added. It is simply what works for me, and I couldn't find a lot on the internet about advanced home brew lager techniques, more so just the basic things like sanitation, use temp control etc. If there are other tips seasoned lager brewers feel would be a worthy addition, please add them. [emoji3]

Here are some points that I have found work well for me and my way of brewing. I do a full volume mash (BIAB) and these days mostly no-chill. We will assume recipes, brewing practices and sanitation are up to scratch.

Recipes and ingredients
- Fresh ingredients are a must, I buy in bulk and mill my grain the day before brew day.
- Make sure your water is the best it can be. I use 50:50 rainwater and tap water with chlorine removed. My tap water is good enough as it is though with mineral content in the right ranges and it has very little chlorine. I haven't delved into adjusting water chemistry yet as I haven't seen a great need.
- My Pilsner style recipes are mostly Weyermann Pilsner malt, carapils and melanoidin, sometimes some Munich light for colour. I think this is one of the best tasting Pilsner malts and I like it much more than domestic Pilsner malt. I use some Magnum for bittering and generally Saaz at the end, sometimes Tettnang. Bittering is generally in the low 20's.

Wort creation
- I use a Hochkurz mash schedule, I like some body and not too dry a beer. It is 63c for 30mins then 70c for 40 mins then mash out.
- I usually skim off the hot break as needed, and use delta floc or brew brite at the end of the boil.
- Rapid chill if possible, I mostly no-chill though and it hasn't affected flavours, it's just a matter of adjusting your hop additions.
- I let the wort settle in the kettle for a bit to reduce trub getting into the cube, and transfer slowly to reduce any aeration. 

Fermenting
- Chill to pitching temp, I put the cube in the fridge for this.
- Aerate the wort well by whatever means you employ. I am giving o2 infusion a go next batch. Lots of shaking/splashing does the trick as well.
- Pitch a healthy starter. I reuse slurry from the previous batch.
- Control your fermentation temperatures. I set my freezer to 10c and raise to 14c when nearing FG. Next batch I will give the stainless pressure fermenter a crack and see how that goes.
- Cold crash after fermentation is finished. Let it settle for a week or more, fine with gelatin if desired.
- Transfer to a sanitized and co2 purged keg to exclude oxygen. With the pressure fermenter I'll be able to do a closed transfer under pressure and the beer should be partly carbonated as well.


----------



## Rocker1986 (15/3/17)

I do pretty much the same thing. I also love the Weyermann pilsner malts, I've used the 'normal' one before with great results, and am now using the Bohemian one as most of my lagers now are Bo Pils. Magnum doesn't get used for bittering in those as I've found nicer results from using only Saaz, but I have used it in other lager styles.

Distilled water is used with small amounts of minerals added back. No Carapils, but similar mash schedule - also I use acidulated malt at about 2%.

Fermentation profile is similar, 10C to start and then allowed to raise to 18C when the brew gets down to around 1.020 SG. Two week cold crash with isinglass and Polyclar treatments then kegged. Takes around 4 weeks from pitching to kegging, but the beer does improve with more time cold in the keg I've noticed.


----------



## nosco (15/3/17)

Ill add my 2c to that.

- I think a glycoprotein rest @ 72c works especially well with a pilsner. Ive done it in the past (by getting my alpha rest temps mixed up :lol: ) and it makes for a really beautiful looking beer.

- I chill 2deg below pitching temps so by the time I transfer it it has gone up a degree or 2. I have heard other people pitch @ say 7 deg and then let it free rise to ferment temp. I did this with my last pils and it turned out really well. Pitching like this means (i think) that there is no need for a D rest and no need to raise temps above the initial ferment temp. I have used the quick ferment technique in the past with good and bad results. The bad result may have been due to other factors.

- Pitch A LOT of yeast for a lager. Can you pitch too much for a lager? I re pitched LOTS of slurry into a bo pils last Wednesday in to my kegerator. Just a blow off tube no pressure ferment. It was going off like a rocket after 12 hours. Blow of tube activity stopped after 5 days. I havnt tried it yet so I guess ill find out if I pitched too much :blink:

Question? Is it beneficial to get the beer off the yeast asap or wont it matter for the first 2 week period? Considering I will probably have a shit tonne of yeast in there. I can drain it out of the bottom with my kegmenter.

Edit: o2 for a quick and healthy ferment.


----------



## nosco (15/3/17)

Forgot to mention, Ive heard it said that yeast dont like rapid and extreme fluctuations in temp and that this can cause off flavours. My last pils instead of cold "crashing" i droped the temp by 2 deg C per day to zero deg and then let it sit for 3 days. 3 weeks all up from pitch to kegging.


----------



## nosco (15/3/17)

Here's my last effort. 3 weeks in the Brew Bucket and it has been 9 days in the keg. No finings. Can you tell im really happy with it?


----------



## malt junkie (15/3/17)

nosco said:


> Here's my last effort. 3 weeks in the Brew Bucket and it has been 9 days in the keg. No finings. Can you tell im really happy with it?


Thats just plain outright showing off. Well done!


----------



## labels (16/3/17)

I brew litres and litres of the stuff usuall 150L per weekend of brewing and to me it's the easiest beer to make. There are certain rules to success along with a lot of myths. Firstly don't overuse the specilaty malts - stick witn pilsner, munich light and vienna. Crystal malts, melanoidin etc should be added in very small proportions. Secondly, watch with your hopping. Late hopping especialy with Saaz will impart a very grassy flavour that does not mellow out with aging. First wort hopping is the bees knees and is the only hopping schedule in my lagers.
Fermenting is where it's all at. You can pitch warm, I pitch at 25C and oxygenate with pure O2. This really kick starts fermentation but I do it get into a temp controlled chest freezer pretty quickly after pitching. Also I use 2 litre starters that have completely fermented out and the beery liquid discarded. Ferment at the yeast lab's recommended higher end of the temp range - not the lower end. When fermentation is nearly done - when the krausen starts to fall, crank the temp to 20C and hold until the krausen goes completely. Then crash back to fermentation temp. After that drop just 1C per day, hold for 3 days at 3C, crash to -2C and hold for 10 days approx then keg. You will have a super clean commercial grade lager beer. Easy Peasy.


----------



## labels (16/3/17)

German malts are best but with carefull brewing and a little extra time you can make great lager beer with local (Joe White) malt but a few extra tricks are needed.


----------



## technobabble66 (16/3/17)

Such as? 
Don't leave us hanging, labels!


----------



## Hpal (16/3/17)

Some good points. But, a lager brewed at 14 or 15c then a d-rest at 20c? Seems a bit high to me. 
I like saaz too, never had any grassy flavours at all, just awesome pilsner flavour.


----------



## unwrittenlaw (16/3/17)

Got a European lager FWK 9days in ferment at the moment. Pitched 2 packets of 34/70 (rehydrated) at 25deg. Aerated the wort as best we could with splashing and stirring. OG 1.045.. fermentation temp is at 10deg and took off nicely. Airlock activity has slowed last few days. About to take a reading tonight. I'm assuming anything under 1.010 it will end up at... I'm going for 2 of the same reading to know that fermentation is complete. 

Would it be worth doing a d-rest at 12deg for a couple of days before dropping to 2-3deg? 

How long would you keep it cold on the yeast cake before kegging?


----------



## Rocker1986 (16/3/17)

I'd raise up to around 18 for a D-rest. I usually leave mine cold on the cake for about 2 weeks before kegging. Those are my processes though, others will obviously have different ones.


----------



## labels (16/3/17)

technobabble66 said:


> Such as?
> Don't leave us hanging, labels!


I find that the end result from Joe White can be a bit rough. In other words German malts are far more forgiving. To get a better result from JW malts I do the following Mash: Use the brewers window at 66C,I find this the best and mash for a minimum of 70 mins. Ramp to 71C for a Glyco rest for 20 mins. this really helps head retention. I don't bother with a mash out and go straight onto a batch sparge using near boiling water however, make sure on the last sparge that it doesn't creep too far over 80. I usually boil for 90 minutes, I find with JW pils both the hot and cold break are fairly weak compared to German malts so make sure you add whirlfloc, I also add PVPP, this helps get a clearer wort. JW malts are all about getting a clear, trub free wort into the fermenter. Commercial breweries use wort filters but we don't. German malts as I said, have this comparitively massive hot/cold break which leaves the wort nice and clear even without flocs.


----------



## labels (16/3/17)

Hpal said:


> Some good points. But, a lager brewed at 14 or 15c then a d-rest at 20c? Seems a bit high to me.
> I like saaz too, never had any grassy flavours at all, just awesome pilsner flavour.


I never said 14 or 15C. I suggested fermenting near the higher end of the yeast lab's recommended range and that varies from strain to strain neither do I recommend at the very top of the range as fermentation produces heat in itself. You're lucky with Saaz, the point I was making is that Saaz is well known for adding grassy flavours as a late hop addition and I have experienced it myself


----------



## Haciluku (19/3/17)

Labels, I get acetaldehyde sometimes. 
-what kind of yeasts you used for your lager styles?
- How long you oxygenated?
- What is your pitching rate in million cell / ml / degree Plato?


----------



## labels (19/3/17)

Haciluku said:


> Labels, I get acetaldehyde sometimes.
> -what kind of yeasts you used for your lager styles?
> - How long you oxygenated?
> - What is your pitching rate in million cell / ml / degree Plato?


There are three pathways to acetaldehyde, infection, oxidation and incomplete fermentation but I going to assume it's the last one. Pitch big, I use a fully fermented 2 litre starter with the starter gravity at 1.050 so there is plenty of yeast for 25L of wort. Oxygenate for 30-40seconds. I break all the rules and pitch warm but chill quickly after pitching, it does kick start the yeast. Finally and most importantly, if you ferment too cool, the yeast will produce more fermentation by-products than it can clean up. Acetaldehyde is incomplete fermentation which means your yeast are not happy. Finish your beer with a few days at 20C until there are zero bubbles on the surface then crash chill back to 12C and then 1C per day only to 3C. Hold at 3C for three days, drop to -2C for conditioning a few days. Keg, carbonate and leave the keg another week.


----------



## Haciluku (19/3/17)

Thanks Labels.
I did something similar to what you have done, except I pitched cold at 9C with 2.5L starter (two steps, 1L and then 2.5L at 1.040 each starter gravity, decant and pitch) with liquid yeast strain. Then, ferment at the same temp for a few weeks until the gravity stable. I suspect this might be the issue. It needs a larger starter. 

I am not surprise with pitching warm as there are quite a few brewers use this method with good results. Next time, I will do a Helles or Pilsner with 2 packets of 24/70 and pitch warm, and ferment at the higher end of the yeast ferment temp. 

Why do you hold 3C for three days?

What is your mashing schedule for a pilsner and helles with european malts? I would prefer a single infusion if possible as I am using cooler mash tun. Step mash if I do BIAB with steel pot. 

What is your favourite yeast strain?


----------



## labels (19/3/17)

Haciluku said:


> Thanks Labels.
> I did something similar to what you have done, except I pitched cold at 9C with 2.5L starter (two steps, 1L and then 2.5L at 1.040 each starter gravity, decant and pitch) with liquid yeast strain. Then, ferment at the same temp for a few weeks until the gravity stable. I suspect this might be the issue. It needs a larger starter.
> 
> I am not surprise with pitching warm as there are quite a few brewers use this method with good results. Next time, I will do a Helles or Pilsner with 2 packets of 24/70 and pitch warm, and ferment at the higher end of the yeast ferment temp.
> ...


The reason I hold at 3C for days is that I found out quite by accident that lager yeast strains are still active at 3C, admittedly, not very active but nevertheless they can still ferment at 3C so that is the last chance they have to clean-up. Usually acetaldehyde is the last one they finish off with as it's a half finished thing (from my research that is and also from personal observation)

Mashing schedule is usually a pretty basic single infusion at 66C. I often will raise to 71C for 20 minutes for a glyco rest. You need some form of herms, rims or direct fire system to do this. The glycol rest makes certain proteins water soluble by activating a certain protein enzyme. These proteins will give your beer a good head,

Favourite yeast strain is 2042 from Wyeast - no longer available, I am setting up a pretty comprehensive yeast bank so I have access to this strain well into the future.


----------



## manticle (19/3/17)

2042 no longer available?
Really?


----------



## Haciluku (19/3/17)

labels said:


> The reason I hold at 3C for days is that I found out quite by accident that lager yeast strains are still active at 3C, admittedly, not very active but nevertheless they can still ferment at 3C so that is the last chance they have to clean-up. Usually acetaldehyde is the last one they finish off with as it's a half finished thing (from my research that is and also from personal observation)
> 
> Mashing schedule is usually a pretty basic single infusion at 66C. I often will raise to 71C for 20 minutes for a glyco rest. You need some form of herms, rims or direct fire system to do this. The glycol rest makes certain proteins water soluble by activating a certain protein enzyme. These proteins will give your beer a good head,
> 
> Favourite yeast strain is 2042 from Wyeast - no longer available, I am setting up a pretty comprehensive yeast bank so I have access to this strain well into the future.


Interesting information about the 3C. Will take note of that.

I believe the Wyeast 2042 - Danish Lager yeast is still available, I can still get them in my local home brew shop. I have a small bottle in my yeast bank. 

Thanks for the tips. Will pm you If I head into trouble again or any lager related topic.


----------



## Haciluku (20/3/17)

labels said:


> Finish your beer with a few days at 20C until there are zero bubbles on the surface then crash chill back to 12C and then 1C per day only to 3C. Hold at 3C for three days, drop to -2C for conditioning a few days. Keg, carbonate and leave the keg another week.


Labels,
Why crash chill back to 12C, then 1C per day? Can I slow chill from 20C to 3C in 1C per day interval?


----------



## manticle (20/3/17)

2042 listed on the wyeast website, no reference to it being discontinued. I don't brew heaps of lagers but that one is the cleanest fermenting of the ones I have used and I'd be sorry to see it go. Any more info/confirmation Labels?


----------



## labels (20/3/17)

manticle said:


> 2042 no longer available?
> Really?


This information was passed onto me by me LHBS

[SIZE=11.5pt]Phase out March 1st : [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]2000 Budvar Lager[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]2001 Pilsner Urquel H-Strain[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]2035 American Lager[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]3333 German Wheat[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Phase out March 13th: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]3942 Belgian Wheat[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]2042 Danish Lager[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Phase out March 20th: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]3463 Forbidden Fruit[/SIZE]


----------



## labels (20/3/17)

Haciluku said:


> Labels,
> Why crash chill back to 12C, then 1C per day? Can I slow chill from 20C to 3C in 1C per day interval?


Yes you can do that, just extends the time frame that's all and is what I used to do. Now I crash back to 12C with no noticeable difference except time


----------



## Haciluku (20/3/17)

labels said:


> This information was passed onto me by me LHBS
> 
> [SIZE=11.5pt]Phase out March 1st : [/SIZE]
> 
> ...


I should stock 2001 and 2000 if they are still available.


----------



## Bribie G (20/3/17)

The guy who used to win big in the Nationals with lagers just did a single infusion mash like Labels.


----------



## Rocker1986 (20/3/17)

That'd be fuckin right... phase out the lager strain I like the best so far and the one I want to try next. :angry:


----------



## Bribie G (20/3/17)

Hopefully MJ will bring out a version.


----------



## Rocker1986 (20/3/17)

Maybe I'll just get it from WL instead... I'm buying the next one this week so it should still be in stock which means I won't have to worry about it for another year, or if it's anything like the strain that I'm about to retire after the next batch - 2 years.


----------



## labels (20/3/17)

Knowing this was going to be an issue I ordered and received two packs of 2042. The first pack has been split into seven.

A small amont of yeast, maybe 2mls was decanted into a sterile test tube. The remainder has been divided into six two litre starters at 1.050, more than enough for next weekends brew of six 25 litre fermenters.

The test tube yeast will be used for inoculating 40 sterile test tube slants.

And I got still one pack left


----------



## Meddo (20/3/17)

Is there a White Labs equivalent? The equivalency tables I've seen don't have a WL match for 2042.


----------



## Haciluku (20/3/17)

Labels, you mentioned Saaz is not suitable for late hopping. 
I do no chill, does it work as a cube hop (say at 80C in the cube)? Basically, my 15 min in beersmith will be used as 0 min whirlpool addition, 0 min addition in beersmith will be used as cube hop.


----------



## labels (20/3/17)

Haciluku said:


> Labels, you mentioned Saaz is not suitable for late hopping.
> I do no chill, does it work as a cube hop (say at 80C in the cube)? Basically, my 15 min in beersmith will be used as 0 min whirlpool addition, 0 min addition in beersmith will be used as cube hop.


I can't say. I can't answer your question as I have never done a no-chill beer. I suggest you do a Google hunt on the effects of late hopping with Saaz and other noble hops but particularly Saaz - there's lots of information out there for you to make up your own mind.


----------



## manticle (20/3/17)

Adding to whirlpool is ok in my experience - just not in huge amounts. Dry hopping is a definite no-no (again my experience, others may differ)


----------



## Haciluku (20/3/17)

I found something about dry hop with Saaz on the HomeBrewTalk website.
No no for dry hop. Ok with flame out addition but with small quantity like 28g for standard batch.


----------



## Rocker1986 (20/3/17)

Meddo said:


> Is there a White Labs equivalent? The equivalency tables I've seen don't have a WL match for 2042.


Not sure about 2042 but there is one for 2001 which is what I've been using for the last two years, mainly in Bo Pils but I have done a German lager with it as well which contained some home grown Hallertau.

I'm gonna throw 50g of Saaz in at flameout for a pilsner batch I'm brewing on the weekend. I'm brewing it as a 25 litre batch but only cubing 22ish litres this time. I've never tried doing this before, normally the latest addition is at 15 minutes but I also no-chill which would effectively lengthen that addition. I'll try to remember to come back to this thread once it's on tap in 3 months time and report whether or not I can detect any grassy tones from it. If I can then I won't do it again but if it works and gives me a good whack of that awesome Saaz flavour then I may well keep it in the recipe.


----------



## Haciluku (20/3/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> . I'll try to remember to come back to this thread once it's on tap in 3 months time and report whether or not I can detect any grassy tones from


It would be good. 

Found a Saaz hop experiment on Brulosophy: http://brulosophy.com/2016/08/04/the-hop-chronicles-czech-saaz/


----------



## Rocker1986 (20/3/17)

Interesting use of it, probably not something I'd do myself though. Generally I tend to stick to style with my hops, not always but most times. Interesting that grassy was picked as one of the least prominent flavours/aromas given the late and dry hopping done. It's a very small scale experiment in the scheme of things though, with perhaps some other variables at play. Would have been interesting to see what happened if a proper pilsner was brewed instead of an ale, since there's less for off flavours to hide behind in them. But, obviously those tasters couldn't detect it for some reason, I'm hoping that's the case with this next batch of mine too.

Saaz is the only hop that ever goes into my "authentic" pilsners, even if the AA% is so low that I have to use 390g in the boil (including the 50g flameout addition) like I will be on Saturday's batch to achieve the bitterness levels. Bloody 1.3% :blink: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Hpal (21/3/17)

My last batch which is nearly done fermenting 50L no chilled, 21g Saaz at 5 mins and 16g flameout, nice Saaz aroma.


----------



## Mardoo (21/3/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> Maybe I'll just get it from WL instead... I'm buying the next one this week so it should still be in stock which means I won't have to worry about it for another year, or if it's anything like the strain that I'm about to retire after the next batch - 2 years.


FWIW there are a couple websites out there saying 2042 has a WL equivalent, but when you go to the sites that list yeast sources, none of the supposed equivalents match up, so my guess is no, no equivalent.


----------



## Rocker1986 (21/3/17)

Mardoo said:


> FWIW there are a couple websites out there saying 2042 has a WL equivalent, but when you go to the sites that list yeast sources, none of the supposed equivalents match up, so my guess is no, no equivalent.


My original quote was in reference to 2001 Urquell yeast which is apparently the same strain as WLP800. I've only used 2042 once in a XXXX Bitter rip off in which it performed very well and dropped out like a bloody stone despite it being supposedly a low floccing yeast, but I can't find an equivalent either except one site that listed WLP830 as its equivalent. I found that strange since 830 is called German lager and 2042 Danish.


----------



## Meddo (21/3/17)

Yeah I thought you were referring to the 2042, not 2001, hence my question (obviously). Agreed, the only list that I found (which appears to be superseded anyway due to errors) with an equivalent for 2042 had WLP830 as the equivalent for both 2024 and 2124, so something's clearly amiss. The MrMalty list draws a blank in the WL column for 2024.


----------



## labels (21/3/17)

2042 is great lager strain, it's main attributes being a fairly neutral flavour profile and a very low level of floculation above 0C. So the strain is good for a wide variety of lager styles in particular modern European (not Bohemian) pilsners and North American lagers. It's also very forgiving in producing really clean lagers through a fairly wide temperature range. The low floculation really helps with lagering/conditioning the beer quickly, a huge bonus here. However do not despair, Wyeast, according to their website have strain 2247. I've never tried this one but I am super keen to give it a go if it subs well for 2042 and according to the stats it looks like it will do very nicely.


----------



## Rocker1986 (21/3/17)

It looks like on the Wyeast site that any strains with "PC" next to their number aren't available regularly. Apparently 2278, which is also on my to-try list, is also from Pilsner Urquell, the D-strain rather than the H-strain like 2001 is. It doesn't look like going away so I'll try the Budvar yeast first while I still can, and then give the 2278 a go. I mainly brew Bohemian pilsners when I brew lagers so as long as I have one strain that works well in them I'll be happy.


----------



## Haciluku (21/3/17)

Plan to brew more lager this year. So I am after several classic grain and hop bills for Bohemian Pils, Munich Helles and German Pils. If anyone can help or please let me know if this is already available somewhere in the forum. 

Also, how to get that smooth grainy sweet favour in the pilsner? I have been reading Labels' thread about "Getting Pilsner into Pilsner" but can't seem to find any answer.


----------



## labels (21/3/17)

Haciluku said:


> Plan to brew more lager this year. So I am after several classic grain and hop bills for Bohemian Pils, Munich Helles and German Pils. If anyone can help or please let me know if this is already available somewhere in the forum.
> 
> Also, how to get that smooth grainy sweet favour in the pilsner? I have been reading Labels' thread about "Getting Pilsner into Pilsner" but can't seem to find any answer.


It's just so easy you are probably reading far more into it than is necessary. Pilsner malt will naturally produce a beer with a sweet pilsner taste - even Joe White. You can use any lager yeast strain you like - any of them it does not matter. Use a mid-range mash temp of 66C but if you do a low one or a high one it doesn't matter. It is really that easy. The part you need to concentrate on is is very tight temperature control during fermentation and conditioning, that is the make or break point. 
Pay attention to detail, lagers are no place for slack-arses


----------



## Haciluku (21/3/17)

Yes, you are right Labels. There is a lot of info available but not sure what should I use, so better to ask first before I follow blindly. 
I will most likely doing a single infusion mash (ok, 66C). Do I need a small percentage of specialty or base malts other than Pilsner malt for different lager style? 

Will try your method of fermentation and conditioning.


----------



## manticle (21/3/17)

If you do use spec, keep it simple, low and appropriate. 5% or less of caramunich may work well in german style pale lager for example.


----------



## Rocker1986 (22/3/17)

My Bo Pils grain bills consist of Weyermann Bo pils malt, and a small amount of melanoidin & acidulated malt (about 2% each), with a pinch of black malt to slightly darken it to a more golden color like Urquell is. I boil for 90 minutes, adding Saaz at FWH, 80 minutes and 15 minutes to around 40-45 IBUs. The amounts of the hops vary depending on AA%. I use the same recipe every time and they always turn out well.


----------



## Haciluku (23/3/17)

Thanks Rocker. I will give your recipe a go for my next Bo Pils or might do Pils, caramunich III (for colour) & acid malt if I can't find black malt in my grain store. Same hops.
Your hop addition 80 and 15 min, are they based on brewing software or actual (i.e. cube)?


----------



## Rocker1986 (23/3/17)

Cubing makes stuff all difference to long boil additions like 80 minutes so I don't worry about those early ones in regards to that. It would affect the 15 minute addition more though; personally I don't account for it in my recipes because I've never had a beer turn out with excessive bitterness from late additions, even though it's supposed to increase it. If there is an increase from what the software says then I can't detect it, they always taste nicely balanced to my palate.


----------



## Haciluku (23/3/17)

If you have the 15 min addition before cubing, does it affect the favour?


----------



## Adr_0 (23/3/17)

labels said:


> This information was passed onto me by me LHBS
> 
> [SIZE=11.5pt]Phase out March 1st : [/SIZE]
> 
> ...


Wyeast 2000... NO!!!! Seriously, that's probably my favourite.


I've had some good results setting the temperature (freezer temperature, not in-wort) to 18°C at the 50% attenuation mark and holding it there till it's basically at FG. Then into a new fermenter and down to -1 to 0°C. Assuming the first 50% attenuation has been at 11-12°C.

The biggest dramas for me with lagers are:
- The time/effort to build up big starters. I have 2 x 3L erlenmeyers to do this, but it still takes over a week really.
- The bottle conditioning time. Lagering is fine, not really massively longer than some ales - but it takes a solid 4-6 weeks to get carbonation coming through.

I should prime, then let it sit for a day before bottling. That might be too much... maybe try 8-12hrs. This works well with ales - giving it 3-6hrs to get fermentation off quickly - and I'm sure it would work for lagers.


----------



## labels (23/3/17)

Yes, I allow a week for starters usually making them the weekend before I brew. With your long bottling time it probably has to do with not enough viable yeast. If you save some yeast from your starter and re-seed at bottling time you will probably have more luck


----------



## Rocker1986 (24/3/17)

Haciluku said:


> If you have the 15 min addition before cubing, does it affect the favour?


That's a good question. It wouldn't present like a 15 minute addition would when the wort is chilled straight after the boil, no doubt about that. That's why I'm experimenting with the flameout addition tomorrow. I still get plenty of Saaz flavour though, just want to see if the flameout addition increases that a bit more without being grassy.


----------



## Haciluku (24/3/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> That's a good question. It wouldn't present like a 15 minute addition would when the wort is chilled straight after the boil, no doubt about that. That's why I'm experimenting with the flameout addition tomorrow.


Cool, please let me know the result when you tasted it.


----------



## Rocker1986 (24/3/17)

Will do mate, it will be pitched on Tuesday and kegged 4 weeks later but not on tap straight away so probably be a couple of months away yet.


----------



## Rocker1986 (11/4/17)

Haciluku said:


> Cool, please let me know the result when you tasted it.


I've taken the final FG sample from this batch just now and had a small taste. If there are grassy flavours in it then I can't taste them. It just tastes like all my previous ones but with an extra kick of Saaz flavour, which I was hoping for. It will now be cold conditioned for two weeks before being kegged so I expect it will improve more. I'll make a final judgement on this flameout addition once the beer is carbonated and on tap but at this point it looks like it will remain part of the recipe.


----------



## Haciluku (11/4/17)

Good to hear that.
I took a punt last weekend, did a cube hopping with Saaz and Motueka (total 40g) on Boh Pils in 23L batch. It is fermenting now.


----------



## klangers (11/4/17)

I can also vouch for the warm pitch method. I prefer to pitch the yeast straight after chilling rather than muck around waiting. If your fridge is grunty enough it'll pull down the temperature in time for the ramp up of fermentation. White Labs actually recommend "warm pitching". 20 degrees C or so. Keeping the wort away from yeast leaves it highly vulnerable to oxidation.

Honestly I don't know what the fuss is about with lagers. Aside from recipe variations (I consider a recipe to also cover ferment temps, yeast cell counts etc), there is absolutely no difference in the hot side process. The only difference is in the cold side - and I debate if this is really a difference at home brew levels - is that lagers need to be kept on the yeast for an extended time. If you make good "normal" beer, then there is absolutely no reason why you can't make a good lager. Just a different recipe with different process parameters.

Lager actually means "to store/keep" in German. This specifically refers to keeping the beer on the yeast for an extended period of time.


----------



## Phoney (11/4/17)

The best tip I ever picked up with lagers/pils was the Brulosophy lager method. Three weeks from grain to brain instead of faffing about waiting for months.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/







> I'm a big fan of good lager beer- Marzen, Schwarzbier, and German Pils are all some of favorite styles. As a homebrewer, I initially avoided making lager due to my inability to precisely control temperature (I maintain that good lagers require the ability to control ferm temps). Once I finally got my fermentation chamber setup and made a couple lagers using more traditional fermentation schedules, I found myself avoiding them due to how long they took to finish. Awhile back, I started messing around with the following method for fermenting good lager that takes significantly less time:
> 
> 
> Chill wort to pitching temp (48-53F), pitch adequately sized starter (decanted), set regulator to initial fermentation temp (50-55F), and leave beer to ferment 5 days. (+5 days)
> ...


----------



## Rocker1986 (11/4/17)

Interesting how you can leave the beer to ferment for 5 days before raising the temp on the morning of the 5th day (only 4 days have passed)... it would actually be the morning of the 6th day, but anyway..

The thing with that lager method is using the SG more than time to make temp changes. I use the method myself and while I am not kegging the beer after 14 days, I'm not leaving it for months either. It takes about 4 weeks with my current method but only because I let it cold crash for two weeks in the FV instead of one. I've tried kegging them after only one week and the result was not as good as two weeks. I normally begin the temp raise on the 6th or 7th day depending on the SG, and leave it up there until the 15th day when it's dropped to 0C for that two weeks.

The other thing I have noticed with batches that have been kegged, then carbonated and tapped a few days later is that the more time they sit cold in the kegerator whilst on tap, the better they get, so there must be something more to this extended lagering than just dropping shit out of the beer. Other ones that sit in the keg for a few weeks before being tapped don't seem to improve quite as much, i.e. they are already excellent.


----------



## TheWiggman (12/4/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> ... so there must be something more to this extended lagering than just dropping shit out of the beer.


Completely, forgive me for seeming surprised that this is not well understood. One such snippet from Braukaiser (which I consider to be a reliable source) -

_"When the beer is conditioned at low temperatures various processes take place that lead to the smooth character which is expected from a lager:_

_Proteins and polyphenols (tannins) form agglomerations (basically bind with each other to form larger molecules) which become insoluble and precipitate out of solution. [Nguyen 2007]_
_Hop polyphenols will drop out leading to milder hop bitterness_
_Yeast sediment which cleans up the beer and removes the yeasty smell and taste associated with young beer_
_Some of the alcohols and acids form esters in the beer which leads to new flavor compounds. This process is very slow and becomes only significant after more than 12 weeks [Narziss 2005]._
_Some yeast activity may be present which leads to further clean-up and extract reduction of the beer. I oftentimes see another extract drop of 0.1 - 0.2 Plato over the course of a few weeks."_
I'd also suggest people challenge the idea of a diacetyl rest. General advice on brewing forums seems to be it is a necessary part of the process to 'clean up the yeast', but why is it necessary? If you use a good pitch of healthy yeast into decent wort and your ferment temperature is appropriate there shouldn't be a need. I don't subscribe to the idea of "it doesn't matter so do it anyway", do it with purpose or don't do it at all. If
I've tried the Brulosophy method and personally I think there is some confirmation bias going on. I've done it before and went "hey, decent lager!". Then a few weeks later the beer improved. I tried it again and the next beer was not as good, in fact pretty average. One more brew later the method was different again (no diacetyl rest, 7 days at 11-12­°C, huge yeast pitch) and it was decent after 2 weeks. Water quality, good/fresh ingredients and yeast health have far greater impact on the final beer in my opinion and experience.


----------



## Kumamoto_Ken (12/4/17)

I have a question for all you lager experts, although it relates to a Kolsch (my first) I'm fermenting.

I've followed the Brewing Classic Styles Kolsch recipe. Fermented using WLP029 and has been at 16C for a couple of weeks. Pending a hydro reading tonight I plan to lager it for four weeks as per the BCS recommendation.

Should I transfer off the yeast before dropping the temp or just leave it in the current FV? I've used the search function and the opinions vary both ways.
Leaving it as it is will give about 6 weeks total on the yeast...too long? I am extremely lazy so not having to transfer is an attractive option to me.

On a side note, this had better be a bloody nice beer. I'm not used to one brew hogging up my ferm fridge for this long.


----------



## klangers (12/4/17)

I just crash it without a second transfer.

If I had a conical FV I'd drain off the yeast sediment and then crash it. But I don't, so I have to live without such luxuries. I haven't noticed any impact on the beer and it still becomes crystal clear.

Commercially they crop off the yeast a couple times during primary fermentation before transferring to the mat tanks. The reasons for this are less about impact on beer and more about harvesting yeast and preventing the lines blocking up. The pro brewers on this forum should be able to shed more light on this - I'm just the engineer who designs what they tell me to.


----------



## Kumamoto_Ken (12/4/17)

klangers said:


> I just crash it without a second transfer.
> 
> If I had a conical FV I'd drain off the yeast sediment and then crash it. But I don't, so I have to live without such luxuries. I haven't noticed any impact on the beer and it still becomes crystal clear.


Thanks klangers, I appreciate the advice. Even better, it was the answer I wanted to hear!


----------



## labels (12/4/17)

In answer to Wiggman's post, I consider the Braukaiser information in your post to be pretty accurate.
In regards to your comment on Diacetyl, some yeast strains produce more than others, and by a considerable amount and, it's not just lager yeast strains, a lot of ale strains produce lots of diacetyl. Only thing being of course, ales are fermented at higher temps and so diacetyl is not a problem.
Warming the beer up part way through fermentation does a lot more than clean up diacetyl. There are other fermentation by-products such as acetaldehyde and it also speeds up the entire process so you can drink the beer sooner. It also adds peace of mind that terminal gravity is reached which is important for naturally conditioned bottled beer - providing you left it up at the elevated temp long enough.
Your comments on big pitch, healthy yeast and temp control are spot-on.


----------



## Rocker1986 (12/4/17)

Thanks for the information on the lagering process. I knew there was more to it than just dropping stuff out given the noticeable improvement in the beer, but I'd never really looked into it overly. I really need to get a third fridge that I can store full kegs in, that way they're not tying up the fermenter for too long and they can just lager in the keg. I still like to raise the temp towards the end of fermentation, it's more about making sure the thing finishes than anything else but if there are other benefits to it then it gives me more reason to keep doing it.

In any case, aside from two batches (one was a shit recipe, the other a shit brewing process issue), they've all come out very tasty and brilliantly clear, especially after a 3-4 week sit in the keg in the fridge. :wub:


----------



## Tony121 (12/4/17)

I've been listening to Brew Strong podcasts lately due to the predictable nature of Sydney traffic.

Couple of things I picked up specifically related to this conversation are 1. Raising temp at approx. 2/3 of the way through ferment mainly to ensure the yeast fully attenuates (which Labels touched on) and; 2. Cold crashing Lagers can be detrimental as it stresses the yeast. The best method according to Jamil is to lower 1 deg. C per day until Lager temps achieved, say 3 deg. C and hold for a week, yeast will continue to clean up the whole way down (this is again something that Labels touches on earlier in this thread).

Anyway, I found it interesting.


----------



## labels (12/4/17)

Tony121 said:


> I've been listening to Brew Strong podcasts lately due to the predictable nature of Sydney traffic.
> 
> Couple of things I picked up specifically related to this conversation are 1. Raising temp at approx. 2/3 of the way through ferment mainly to ensure the yeast fully attenuates (which Labels touched on) and; 2. Cold crashing Lagers can be detrimental as it stresses the yeast. The best method according to Jamil is to lower 1 deg. C per day until Lager temps achieved, say 3 deg. C and hold for a week, yeast will continue to clean up the whole way down (this is again something that Labels touches on earlier in this thread).
> 
> Anyway, I found it interesting.


There are quite a few differing opinions in this thread but none of them are wrong. The mehodology I use is something that I have developed over many years and I am still looking at ways to improve it - I don't stand still on the way I do things and there is always more to learn.

I still stick to the same basic principles I started with only because I haven't found anything better yet. In the begining it took 35 days to get to where I wanted. Now it's 28 days but - needs a week longer in the keg to smooth out. Six of one etc.

I have tried a 21 day turnaround and then warm condition in the keg for one week. That works okay too but there is always a payback. The beer isn't as smooth as cold conditioning which produces a much more refined taste. A bit like comparing two Aussie draught lagers say, Carlton draught and Boags premium lager. (They're both pretty easy to get close to on a home brew scale as well) .

Just stick with what works for you and if it's okay, run with it but, my philosophy is - your beer should be at least as good or better than the commercial examples you're trying to replicate (style - not a particular brand)


----------



## Rocker1986 (12/4/17)

I have to admit I do enjoy my own brewed lagers more than any commercially available ones. I've worked out a recipe I like a hell of a lot and stick to it. The only questionable process I probably use is crashing them to 0C after the period sitting warm. It takes a day or two to get there, but I don't really have time to be taking 2 weeks to drop it by 1 degree a day. Maybe they'd taste a bit better doing that but at this point it would cause me to not be able to keep up supply with demand. But, they still taste better than commercial lagers and that's all I'm aiming for really. B)


----------



## labels (12/4/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> I have to admit I do enjoy my own brewed lagers more than any commercially available ones. I've worked out a recipe I like a hell of a lot and stick to it. The only questionable process I probably use is crashing them to 0C after the period sitting warm. It takes a day or two to get there, but I don't really have time to be taking 2 weeks to drop it by 1 degree a day. Maybe they'd taste a bit better doing that but at this point it would cause me to not be able to keep up supply with demand. But, they still taste better than commercial lagers and that's all I'm aiming for really. B)


If it works, stick with it. I too find dropping 1 degree per day is tedious. Instead, my newer method is to crash from warm back to fermentation temps, in my case crash from 20C back to 12C then one degree in the morning and one degree at night. That speeds things up considerably but overcomes any shortcomings in crashing from 20C to 0C.


----------



## Tony121 (12/4/17)

labels said:


> There are quite a few differing opinions in this thread but none of them are wrong. The mehodology I use is something that I have developed over many years and I am still looking at ways to improve it - I don't stand still on the way I do things and there is always more to learn.
> 
> I still stick to the same basic principles I started with only because I haven't found anything better yet. In the begining it took 35 days to get to where I wanted. Now it's 28 days but - needs a week longer in the keg to smooth out. Six of one etc.
> 
> ...


Completely agree, if it works for you go for it. 

I still think I'm very much new to brewing, only 2 yrs of all grain, and constantly learning new things (though seems I don't have time to try them all).

Edit - Please note that I wasn't saying anyone was wrong, I am in no position to do that, I was just offering up another opinion.


----------



## Rocker1986 (12/4/17)

labels said:


> If it works, stick with it. I too find dropping 1 degree per day is tedious. Instead, my newer method is to crash from warm back to fermentation temps, in my case crash from 20C back to 12C then one degree in the morning and one degree at night. That speeds things up considerably but overcomes any shortcomings in crashing from 20C to 0C.


I might try that next time I ferment a lager, as I've got an extra keg of porter that was done early this year that can ease the pressure on keeping supply up soon. I suspect the next lager will be fermented when that porter will be next in line for a tap so I'll only have to get two batches fermented and kegged in the same time I normally take to ferment and keg three.


----------



## dr K (13/4/17)

You can brew a "lager" any way you like if you call it a lager..well I guess it is!
Fermentation is the key here, Budjovice ferment at no higher than 7 degrees C, and yes it takes time
I too am unsure of the need for a DA rest when the beer has fermented for 15 0r 20 days at 7C, but I do subscribe to the thought that an increase at end might well finish the beer.
Of course then the beer needs to be lagered.
I make one Czech Pils a year so I am possibly not a good source for advice.

K


----------



## Haciluku (27/4/17)

labels said:


> Finish your beer with a few days at 20C until there are zero bubbles on the surface then crash chill back to 12C and then 1C per day only to 3C. Hold at 3C for three days, drop to -2C for conditioning a few days. Keg, carbonate and leave the keg another week.


Labels, I am trying your method for my Boh Pils. 
Started at 14C (OG1050, mashed at 66C)
14C - 5 days
17C - 1 days (gravity drops to 1010)
20C - 13 days (today) - Checking this morning, there are still some bubbles on the surface, tiny one and a few 1cm bubbles. Can see the bubble floats from the bottom of fermenter if I move it. Gravity drops to 1008.
Questions:
- Any issue if it stays at 20C for that long?
- Can I crash chill to 12C now?


----------



## labels (27/4/17)

Don't take the bubbles on top too literally, what I am suggesting is that when the krausen has fallen it's a good indication that you have reached final gravity. Crash back to 12°C, then as you had it warm for longer than is necessary, you can drop from 12°C to zero over the next 3-5 days or thereabouts and leave it for a week to clear.

If you want to add gelatine for clarity, do so when you are at 12°C


----------



## Haciluku (27/4/17)

Thanks Labels. I will drop it to 12C, and add gelatine.
Do I still need to hold it at 3C for 3 days, before bringing it to zero or -2C?


----------



## Rocker1986 (27/4/17)

This reminds me, I kegged my Bo Pils yesterday that had been sitting at 0C for 2 weeks. This was the one that had the experimental flameout addition of Saaz. Still no grassy flavours; it was slightly more bitter than usual but I expect that will mellow out during the time between now and when it ends up on tap. Having said that, most of the time when I try beers at kegging time they're more bitter than they end up once on tap so it's pretty much business as usual. Flavor was very promising though, keen to try it carbonated!


----------



## Hpal (23/5/17)

Have fermenting now a double batch of a Pilsner with some late Saaz in my new stainless pressure fermenter, I gave oxygenation a go for the for the first time and had a very vigorous start. Quite pleased.


----------



## Lindsay Dive (23/5/17)

I have making Lagers for a considerable time now. I almost always have lagers fermenting. Since Best Maltz introduced their Heidelberg Malt, I have switched to that Malt exclusively with the addition of 5.4% Best Wheat Malt and 6.6% Best Caramel Malt pils (Cara Pils). Mash at 66 degrees C for 90 minutes. Boil for 90 minutes with four additions of Motueka Hops with the first going into the boiler with the first Malt. Then I have equal additions at 60 minutes, 10 minutes and again at 2 minutes. I use Saflager W - 34/70 yeast using 14 grams per 25 litre fermenter. Ferment in a chest freezer which holds 6 x 25 litre fermenters at 8 - 10 degrees until the Krausen falls. I the turn off the chest freezer and introduce a fan to expel all the cold air and raise the ferment temperature to whatever the ambiant temperature is. I maintain that ambient temperate for about 5 days. I then crash the temperature down to zero and leave for another 6 or more days. I Keg using 2 teaspoons of gelatine per a fifty litre Keg.
I use the same yeast for three generations. I Keg at the next planned brewing day and dump the new fresh wort directly onto the last yeast cake. I do not wash the fermenters during the use of the three generations, just Keg and dump the new wort. After the second generation of yeast and after kegging, I remove two large soup ladles of the yeast cake and discard, then dump the new fresh wort onto the remaining yeast cake. I never get infections. I have never been game enough to go for a fourth generation though. I find this method is a big cost saving.
I clean the fermenters with Caustic Soda.
Happy Lager Brewing.


----------



## Haciluku (23/5/17)

Just finished a pilsner with 20g Saaz and 20g Motueka cube hopping. It tastes a bit grassy before the carbonation. Hope it will fade away.
I don't think I will be doing cube hopping again.


----------



## labels (23/5/17)

Haciluku said:


> Just finished a pilsner with 20g Saaz and 20g Motueka cube hopping. It tastes a bit grassy before the carbonation. Hope it will fade away.
> I don't think I will be doing cube hopping again.


You were warned about grassiness from late hopping lagers. Yes, it will fade but may take some time.


----------



## Lindsay Dive (23/5/17)

labels said:


> You were warned about grassiness from late hopping lagers. Yes, it will fade but may take some time.


All depends on what hop you choose to use. In the mid eighties I used to mostly use Saaz, however, I found the quality of the hop pellets compared to the hop plugs differed enormously. It's almost impossible to find Saaz hop plugs these days here is Oz, but, I used to prefer them over pellets. Yes, I did do ONE Lager a few years ago using wholly and solely Saaz pellets that included late and very late hopping. Grassiness. I would suggest to the Saaz users to work out your IBU's with only two additions to the boil, nothing later than fifteen minutes.
Now, I find the beer pigs (guzzling mates) that I have, much prefer Motueka over Saaz. There is no grassiness with Motueka whatsoever.


----------



## Rocker1986 (23/5/17)

I have a batch of pilsner in a keg with 50g Saaz added at flameout, fermented with 13th or 14th generation 2001 Urquell lager yeast, and I couldn't taste any grassiness in it at FG or at kegging time. It tasted bloody good in all honesty. There were no hops added to the cube though. It's been sitting in the keg for about a month now and will be on tap soon. If it's still tasting excellent then, I will probably keep that addition.. I don't see much point in dispensing with something that isn't causing me the problems it supposedly should be causing, and has from early tastings only improved the beer.

I have another one in the fermenter now although I haven't tasted it yet.. no grassiness in the aroma from an SG sample I took yesterday though. This one is being fermented with 2000 Budvar lager yeast, 1st generation.


----------



## Haciluku (23/5/17)

Lindsay Dive said:


> There is no grassiness with Motueka whatsoever.


Did another brew last week, using Motueka and Riwaka cube hopping. Haven't fermented yet. Hope it is ok. 





labels said:


> You were warned about grassiness from late hopping lagers. Yes, it will fade but may take some time.


Yes, you are right, not your fault. I just wanted to try myself, and will stay away from Saaz cube hopping in the future.


----------



## fungrel (24/5/17)

Haciluku said:


> Did another brew last week, using Motueka and Riwaka cube hopping. Haven't fermented yet. Hope it is ok.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you are right, not your fault. I just wanted to try myself, and will stay away from Saaz cube hopping in the future.


Adding flowers in the boil vessel as i drain to the cube is what i do, 

The hops only stay in contact with the wort long enough for the boil vessel to drain. I get flavour but no grassiness, similar flavour profile to a macro Euro lager.


----------



## Haciluku (24/5/17)

fungrel said:


> The hops only stay in contact with the wort long enough for the boil vessel to drain. I get flavour but no grassiness, similar flavour profile to a macro Euro lager.


This is what I will do in the next brew.


----------



## Lionman (24/5/17)

WWhen you cube hopped did you pour the trub from the cube into the fermenter?

I always filter the wort through a hop spider between the cube and fermenter, never had any grassy notes to any of my beers. Cube hop all of them.


----------



## Haciluku (24/5/17)

I did. I put the hops in the cube, and then fill it with wort. 
I might be one of the reasons.


----------



## Lionman (24/5/17)

If you have the wort in the cube for a few days and then in the FV for 2 weeks or so, the hop matter will be in contact with the wort for an extended period.

You might be able to get away with this with an ale that might be a bit more rough around the edges but with a lager, any hoppy vege flavours might come through more as the flavours are a little more delicate and there is less bitterness to hide behind.

I would try and get nice clean wort into the FV to get the best chance of getting nice clean flavours. You can use a hop spider or stockings or a hop or grain bag to filter the wort. Some people even bag the cube additions a hop bag and add them to the cube before filling the cube with hot wort. I like to filter the lot though to keep as much of the crap from the bottom of the cube out of the FV as possible.


----------



## Haciluku (24/5/17)

The last brew, I have the hops in the cube and in FV through the process. Didn't filter it. It was my first cube hop lager. 

So from now on, my last addition will be at zero. Then, I will whirlpool and drain to cube so all the hops will be at the kettle. No more hops in cube until I found something more subtle.


----------



## technobabble66 (24/5/17)

As lionman suggests, I'd filter out the hops when you transfer from cube to FV. It should greatly reduce grassiness that could be coming from extended contact with the hops debris. 
Fwiw, I've got 2 cubes about to become lagers: 1 with tett in the cube and the other with tett + saaz in the cube. 
The first was pitched with S-189 (after straining out the hops (& malts - I cube malted these 2 also! [emoji57])) 2 days ago. Down to 1.028 (@18*c), no grassiness as yet (though far too early to tell, really). 
I'll try to remember to report back once it's finished and after its carbed up.


----------



## Rocker1986 (24/5/17)

I'm totally using my hop spider to filter the wort into the FV on my next batch, such a simple idea that never sprang to mind. Some hops are more susceptible to leaving grassy tones in the beer if left in contact with either the wort or the beer for too long and Saaz is well known for it. As I said I can't pick it up from the flameout addition I experimented with but I wouldn't cube hop with Saaz even if it was being filtered out, mainly because the cubes often sit around for weeks before I ferment them.


----------



## Lionman (24/5/17)

Hop spider works well, although if there's a bunch of hops it can clog up and drain pretty slowly. I have found rubbing a big plastic sanitised spoon on the inside wall of the spider helps move debris from the edge and allow wort to flow through. 

Just pitched a big choc stout and the cocoa was nasty at clogging up the spider.


----------



## Rocker1986 (25/5/17)

How does it go with cold break and keeping that out? I don't cube hop at the moment although it's in the pipeline to try it, in pale ales at least.

Sorry, taking this a bit O/T :lol:


----------



## Haciluku (25/5/17)

No more cube hop for lager like what Rocker said, because my cubes normally sits for weeks before I ferment them. Flame out will be my last addition just to play safe.
I have a NZ pilsner cube hopped with Riwaka and Motueka which has been sitting there for three weeks. Don't have a hop spider but will use panty hoses to strain it into FV. Will report back in a few weeks.


----------



## technobabble66 (25/5/17)

I just use a regular kitchen strainer/sieve (sanitized) to filter out the hops. Easy peesy!

Fwiw, cold break into the FV isn't a big deal - apparently it doesn't really cause problems and can be good food for the yeasties (more important that it forms in the first place, once formed it generally will drop out again if it goes into the FV. It's the hot break you reeeeally want to keep out of the FV).


----------



## Rocker1986 (25/5/17)

Yeah I'm not overly concerned with cold break getting into the FV although when the sludge starts coming out of the cube I let it run for about a second then stop pouring. I'll try the hop spider next batch even though it has no cube hops, just to see how much of the cold break if any, gets caught in it. Hot break I do my best to leave in the urn as much as possible though.


----------



## Lindsay Dive (25/5/17)

This is what I do if using hop cones. If I only have pellets I use a hop sock.

I use a small piece of a stainless scrubber and roll it up into a cylinder and push that inside of a normal fermenter tap which I have on all my kettles. This filters out most of the hops and cold break material from the kettle as I run it into a fermenter.
I then place this fermenter on a board on top of the open chest freezer and leave it sit there for about ½ hour for all of the cold break and any other material to settle on the bottom of the fermenter, I then run off the very clear wort and drop it from a height of about ½ a metre into another fermenter. This aerates the wort, and once the break material begins to enter the tap. I stop the runoff and pour it back into the kettle. I find that the left over hop cones/flowers make a fantastic filter and you can then run off extremely clear wort.

I know this sounds a little fiddly but I do like real clear wort.


----------



## technobabble66 (25/5/17)

Sounds like a good system. 
Out of interest, by cold break, do you mean hot break; that forms the trub cone in the bottom of the kettle after whirlpooling? Or do you let your wort cool to pitching temps in the kettle as well?


----------



## Lindsay Dive (26/5/17)

It is the combination of the hot break and cold break. You can see the hot break forming during the boil. I use whirlfloc and copper immersion chillers and you can see the cold break forming, which is much larger is size to the hot break as the wort is cooled. It usually takes about 35-40 minutes for the wort to cool to pitching temperatures. I don't whirlpool because of the use of immersion chillers, they restrict you from whirlpooling.

I'm from the old school.


----------



## technobabble66 (26/5/17)

Ah, the ol' immersion chiller. Didn't realize; I thought you were maybe just whirlpooling and not chilling.
Definitely hot and cold break in that case. 
Carry on, nothing to see here!


----------



## warra48 (30/9/17)

labels said:


> I brew litres and litres of the stuff usuall 150L per weekend of brewing and to me it's the easiest beer to make. There are certain rules to success along with a lot of myths. Firstly don't overuse the specilaty malts - stick witn pilsner, munich light and vienna. Crystal malts, melanoidin etc should be added in very small proportions. Secondly, watch with your hopping. Late hopping especialy with Saaz will impart a very grassy flavour that does not mellow out with aging. First wort hopping is the bees knees and is the only hopping schedule in my lagers.
> Fermenting is where it's all at. You can pitch warm, I pitch at 25C and oxygenate with pure O2. This really kick starts fermentation but I do it get into a temp controlled chest freezer pretty quickly after pitching. Also I use 2 litre starters that have completely fermented out and the beery liquid discarded. Ferment at the yeast lab's recommended higher end of the temp range - not the lower end. When fermentation is nearly done - when the krausen starts to fall, crank the temp to 20C and hold until the krausen goes completely. Then crash back to fermentation temp. After that drop just 1C per day, hold for 3 days at 3C, crash to -2C and hold for 10 days approx then keg. You will have a super clean commercial grade lager beer. Easy Peasy.



labels, I'm following this regime at present. I assume you do all this in primary, or do your transfer for lagering?


----------



## labels (4/10/17)

warra48 said:


> labels, I'm following this regime at present. I assume you do all this in primary, or do your transfer for lagering?


No transferring or racking, too much chance of introducing oxygen, do everthing in the primary and leave the lid on until you're ready to transfer to a keg or bottling bucket. The least interferring the better until it's ready


----------



## Bellyup (4/10/17)

Labels, 
Can you expand on your first wort hopping a little more?
Can you give me an example of what your hopping schedule would be in one of your brews.
I've made some mistakes doing lagers, mostly under pitching leading to bacterial infection.....it really hurts pouring out the results of your labours onto the grass.


----------



## manticle (4/10/17)

First wort hopping is just adding to the kettle as you run off from the tun. Hot steep in wort prior to boiling.

Sufficient pitching and avoiding infection are different issues - usually solved by pitching more and good sanitation*

*there are examples of environmental infections from hell getting the best of the most sanitary conscious brewers so that bit is not black/white


----------



## homebrewnewb (5/10/17)

friggin this


----------



## warra48 (5/10/17)

homebrewnewb said:


> friggin this



Interesting, but won't be possible in my garage brewery in the immediate future. It will have to wait till I'm flush enough to buy a brewery in Deutschland.


----------



## labels (5/10/17)

@belllup, manticle is spot on the money here. @homebrewnewb, a lot of what is in that article is beyond home brewers capability. However, adding sodium metabisulphite to mash and sparge water at the rate of 0.1g per litre does act as an oxygen scavenger and helps preserve more of the malt/pilsners flavours.


----------



## kaiserben (5/10/17)

Are you (or others) pre-boiling your water using this Low DO method?


----------



## kaiserben (5/10/17)

EDIT: Deleted a question that I'm now going to ask in a more appropriate thread.


----------



## Bellyup (6/10/17)

Labels,
Forget about my under pitching and the like and tell me about your hop schedule.
I have been told that for pils and lager to aim for 70% bittering in the first hop edition and the other 30% can go wherever.
Could you tell me what works for you?


----------



## warra48 (6/10/17)

Bellyup said:


> Labels,
> Forget about my under pitching and the like and tell me about your hop schedule.
> I have been told that for pils and lager to aim for 70% bittering in the first hop edition and the other 30% can go wherever.
> Could you tell me what works for you?



Please read labels' earlier posts. He advocates only First Wort Hopping for his lagers.
That doesn't mean you can't do whatever you like because, after all, the beer you brew is your beer.


----------



## labels (6/10/17)

Bellyup said:


> Labels,
> Forget about my under pitching and the like and tell me about your hop schedule.
> I have been told that for pils and lager to aim for 70% bittering in the first hop edition and the other 30% can go wherever.
> Could you tell me what works for you?


For light lagers I only use first wort hopping generally, allowing the hops to steep in the first runnings for around 20 minutes before sparging or turning on the flame under the kettle. Just lately I have been experimenting adding some late hopping at around 15 minutes before flame-out however, I keep this very low, usually at somewhere between 0.2g and 0.5g per litre. My first hopping is using something like Hallertau and I have been trialing Wai-Iti for late hopping which is working out pretty amazing.


----------



## Rocker1986 (7/10/17)

labels said:


> However, adding sodium metabisulphite to mash and sparge water at the rate of 0.1g per litre does act as an oxygen scavenger and helps preserve more of the malt/pilsners flavours.


Does potassium metabisulphite have the same effect? I use it to remove chlorine/chlorophenols currently, maybe it's doing a bit of oxygen scavenging as well.


----------



## labels (8/10/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> Does potassium metabisulphite have the same effect? I use it to remove chlorine/chlorophenols currently, maybe it's doing a bit of oxygen scavenging as well.



I am not 100% sure on this one, I have read that it doesn't have the same effect and therefore Sodium Met should be used - however, I have no scientific evidence and without that I am certainly not diving into speculation. I have both so I use sodium met


----------



## kaiserben (9/10/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> Does potassium metabisulphite have the same effect? I use it to remove chlorine/chlorophenols currently, maybe it's doing a bit of oxygen scavenging as well.



In that LODO document it mentions this: 

_"Now, add 100 mg of SMB powder for every liter of mash water. If you don’t have powder and are instead using Campden tablets, there is 440 mg worth of SMB in each tablet (the rest of the tablet is filler). We should note, potassium metabisulfite is not recommended, as an excess of 10 ppm potassium can be detrimental to the mash [5]. ..."_


----------



## Rocker1986 (9/10/17)

I'll just carry on as I have been I think, haven't been disappointed with the malt flavors in my lagers. I use the potassium met at around 5mg/L for the chlorine treatment.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles (9/10/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> Does potassium metabisulphite have the same effect? I use it to remove chlorine/chlorophenols currently, maybe it's doing a bit of oxygen scavenging as well.



It has the same effect but you will need to increase the quantity by ~20% to account for the greater AW of potassium: SMS is about 67% available SO2, PMS is about 57%.

As noted above, you may not want that level of potassium in your mash, though with modern malts you'll probably get away with it.


----------

