# Can I avoid....



## Bax (29/1/13)

Hey all, I'm ready to do my 3rd brew in a week or so, and I'm just hoping to get some clarification.

My first ever brew was straight kit, fermented in the garage at around 30 degrees. It was okay considering, I think I was just more excited that I'd made beer. Since the second batch, I can no longer stand the first batch - The few remaining bottles got poured.

I learnt that temperature control was a big thing.

My second batch was a Coopers Australian Ale, with US05 I believe. Fermented at 18 degrees, syphoned into a secondary, and then bulk primed before bottling. Quite enjoyable, but still not good enough. 

There was still a lot of sediment, from what I can only imagine is the yeasts waste after consuming bottling sugars. And the mouthfeel was not as crisp and clean as I would have liked. Taste wise, there was a slight tang that doesn't seem like it's meant to be there. Do different sugars produce different amounts of sediment?

So, I come here asking what I can do for a third brew. Do I need to go into partials to remove the things I mentioned above? Has anybody got a good recipe for me to try. This third batch I'd like to Hop as well. 

Short version: Kit brewer wants a cleaner, crisper beer with less sediment.


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## wbosher (29/1/13)

How long did you leave it in the fermenter for? What do you call a lot of sediment, a few mm? How long did you leave it in the bottles?

Two to three weeks should be enough for most of the sedimant to settle in the fermenter, leaving less in the bottles, but enough to carbonate.


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

What were the exact ingredients Bax? i.e. what else did you add to the fermenter other than the can? And how many litres did you top it up to? Also, where are you and what water did you use, tap/tank/bottled?

You've certainly done the right thing in using US-05 yeast fermented at 18 degrees, and if your Coopers Aussie Pale Ale can was well within its use by date it should have worked out really well. I have a mate Adam who brews that kit all the time and it comes out great. He uses a "brew enhancer" mix with it, basically a combination of light dried malt, dextrose and maltodextrin.


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## wbosher (29/1/13)

carniebrew said:


> What were the exact ingredients Bax? i.e. what else did you add to the fermenter other than the can? And how many litres did you top it up to? Also, where are you and what water did you use, tap/tank/bottled?
> 
> You've certainly done the right thing in using US-05 yeast fermented at 18 degrees, and if your Coopers Aussie Pale Ale can was well within its use by date it should have worked out really well. I have a mate Adam who brews that kit all the time and it comes out great. He uses a "brew enhancer" mix with it, basically a combination of light dried malt, dextrose and maltodextrin.



What he said...I hate it when my boss sneaks up on me while I'm in the middle of asking some questions. Anyone would think I'm being paid to actually work here. :lol:


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## Bax (29/1/13)

Testing my memory now, it's all at home on the PC. 

But from memory it was in the fermentor for 2 weeks. I remember it had reached FG, but I left it for a fair bit longer because it still had a very solid krausen, and I was waiting for it to drop. It never dropped, so I imagine some sediment could have come across from that - I couldn't quite find out what to do with the head, whether I'm meant to scoop it off or what.

It's been in the bottle now for 3 weeks I believe. Today could quite possibly be the fourth week. I used caster sugar for bottling, as I didn't have anything else on me at the time.

As for the level of sediment, yeah probably only a few mm. It looked quite clear, but any disturbance was enough to get it cloudy, would I be right in saying that the sediment causes the slimy mouthfeel?

Actual ingredients were the can of extract, local hbs's 'muscle pack' which when I asked they couldn't tell me exactly what was in it, but it looked like a standard dextrose/dry malt/ maltodextrin combination (I've already decided I'll be doing these additions on my own accord next time, instead of relying on premade packs) Topped up to 23L with Tap water that I'd had sitting in my secondary for a few days with the lid off. I've got the option of tank water from my father in law. Now that we've had a lot of rain he shouldn't have a problem with me taking some of that.


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## wbosher (29/1/13)

Everything sounded pretty normal to me until the bit where you say "Topped up to 23L with Tap water that I'd had sitting in my secondary for a few days with the lid off." Not sure, but it sound to me like you used water that had just been sitting there exposed to pretty much anything.


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## wbosher (29/1/13)

In regards to the krausen, that is pretty normal for us-05. Sometimes it drops, sometimes it doesn't. I'll usually give the fermenter a gentle tap around the sides if still there in a couple of weeks, that usually causes it to drop out, then leave another week. Otherwise you can just leave it there while bottling/racking.

The sediment in the bottle sounds pretty normal to me, a few mm is about right. Do you decant it into another vessel before pouring into a glass?


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

That water issue does sound curious...why did you have it sitting in an FV for a couple of days with the lid off? Doesn't sound like it would have been all that fresh.

Tank water can be good, as long as you know it's clean.

Also don't worry about the krausen, don't bother trying to remove it or anything....if all is well with your brew, the krausen is not important. It won't impart any unwanted flavours to your beer.

My main culprit at the moment is your water. You've made two brews...the first fermented far too high, sure, but the 2nd you have ALL the right ingredients and process to make really good beer. Don't let the sediment bother you...with a kit can and brew enhancer the only sediment you should be seeing is yeast, and again with US-05 that shouldn't be affecting your taste much at all. And after having a stubby sitting in the fridge for a few hours it should be all packed down the bottom of the bottle. Try pouring it carefully and all in one go into a glass, leaving the last couple of mm of beer in the bottle with the yeast sediment. Your beer will still be cloudy, it's just how home brew is (without crash chilling or finings). But no way should the sediment be causing "slick mouthfeel" or any other unwanted flavours. Again i'm suss on the water here.


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## NewtownClown (29/1/13)

many people leave their water out overnight for the removal of chloride (chlorine?)


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## Bax (29/1/13)

Cheers guys. 

The water may have only spent one night in the other fermenter prior to being chilled. I read somewhere that it helps chlorine evaporate, also read somewhere else that the chlorine that's in drinking water doesn't evap. It was mainly just me experimenting with different things. 

The first batch was straight water from the tap. Chilled. And it had a slippery mouth feel as well. 

I don't decant into another vessel prior to going into the glass. I do pour gently into a glass though. 

How can I get a cleaner crisper mouth feel?


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## wbosher (29/1/13)

NewtownClown said:


> many people leave their water out overnight for the removal of chloride (chlorine?)



Uncovered???


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## jaypes (29/1/13)

wbosher said:


> Uncovered???


Uncovered or covered it does not matter as the chloramines will be converted to gas. You get a better conversion with UV light (sunlight)


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## bum (29/1/13)

Bax said:


> Taste wise, there was a slight tang that doesn't seem like it's meant to be there.


Kit twang. With a bit of experience and a lot of skill you can cover this up but in my experience as the beer fades it comes back. Some brewers will tell you that kit twang doesn't exist. I will tell you that these lucky bastards can't taste kit twang.

Going to full extract or partials (not based on pre-hopped kits) or AG will get rid of the twang.

What's the issue with the sediment? There's going to be sediment no matter what and you're going to need to be careful with the pour no matter what. Learn to accept it rather than try to remove it.


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

Bax said:


> How can I get a cleaner crisper mouth feel?


What was the final gravity on your brews? Cleaner/crisper mouthfeel could be your brew is not "dry" enough for you, e.g. the use of maltodextrin in those brew enhancers increases the final gravity by adding unfermentable sugars to the wort. But if your FG is anywhere around 1010 that's not going to be the issue.


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## jaypes (29/1/13)

dropping the temp after fermentation will compact a lot of the sediment


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## wbosher (29/1/13)

jaypes said:


> Uncovered or covered it does not matter as the chloramines will be converted to gas. You get a better conversion with UV light (sunlight)


 I was think more along the lines of nasties getting in the water, as it is not boiled before putting into the fermenbter.


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## jaypes (29/1/13)

True, if you can drink it there should be no probs


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

bum said:


> Kit twang. With a bit of experience and a lot of skill you can cover this up but in my experience as the beer fades it comes back. Some brewers will tell you that kit twang doesn't exist. I will tell you that these lucky bastards can't taste kit twang.
> 
> Going to full extract or partials (not based on pre-hopped kits) or AG will get rid of the twang.


I'm one of those brewers. Nobody who has ever consumed my beers, all of which have been made with either kits or unhopped extract, have ever tasted a "twang". I guess we're all lucky bastards!

One of the simplest brews I ever made, back when I was starting out, was an "Irish Ale" from Coopers website....a can of Coopers Draught, brew enhancer 1 (dextrose/maltodextrin) and 300gm golden syrup, with the kit yeast...fermented in my cupboard at around 22 degrees. A large group of us sat down and drank it back to back with Kilkenny from cans. Not surprisingly (now anyway) it was absolutely nothing like Kilkenny....and all of my mates bizarrely preferred the homebrew (I don't think Kilkenny is great out of a can anyway)....and not a 'twang' to be found.

Since then I've made a heap of full extract beer using steeped grain and 60 minute boils, and while the brews are more complex and flavoursome, I (and no-one else for that matter) have ever said "oh great at least the twang has gone". And it's not for want of trying, we've discussed "that homebrew taste" while drinking these brews and simply can't find it. There's a bunch of theories on it, such as old/out of date cans, use of table sugar in the wort (one mate's old man does this and my mate can't stand his home brew), and temperature variations during fermentation.

It's a mythical beast, and I actually look forward to tasting "extract twang" one day so I can work out what the hell people are talking about. Just hopefully not in one of my brews.


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## goomboogo (29/1/13)

jaypes said:


> Uncovered or covered it does not matter as the chloramines will be converted to gas. You get a better conversion with UV light (sunlight)


I was under the impression this won't work very well for chloramine. Chlorine may be removed this way but chloramine would require filtering or treatment with something like campden tablets or an equivalent.


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## Bax (29/1/13)

bum said:


> Kit twang. With a bit of experience and a lot of skill you can cover this up but in my experience as the beer fades it comes back. Some brewers will tell you that kit twang doesn't exist. I will tell you that these lucky bastards can't taste kit twang.
> 
> Going to full extract or partials (not based on pre-hopped kits) or AG will get rid of the twang.
> 
> What's the issue with the sediment? There's going to be sediment no matter what and you're going to need to be careful with the pour no matter what. Learn to accept it rather than try to remove it.


No issue at all with sediment, so long as it does not affect taste or mouthfeel in any way. I honestly don't even mind if it ends up in my pour. Again, so long as it has no affect on taste or mouthfeel.



carniebrew said:


> What was the final gravity on your brews? Cleaner/crisper mouthfeel could be your brew is not "dry" enough for you, e.g. the use of maltodextrin in those brew enhancers increases the final gravity by adding unfermentable sugars to the wort. But if your FG is anywhere around 1010 that's not going to be the issue.


FG came in at 1012. I've come home for lunch and I've got my spreadsheet with me now, It's been bottled for just over 4 weeks. And was in the fermenter for only 12 days. Not quite 2 weeks.



jaypes said:


> dropping the temp after fermentation will compact a lot of the sediment


Down to what kind of temperature are we talking, 5 degrees? It's an old fridge so it would take a while to get there, but I could definitely do that if it's going to compact things a bit more.

I've read a little bit about kit twang, and it could very well be real. Until I get enough time and confidence to move onto a partial I guess I'll have to deal with it. Taste wise though it's slightly lacking, having a coopers pale ale fresh out of a stubby and having my kit of coopers australian pale ale, it was close - but where it lacked was mouthfeel and crispness. The coopers also had a nuttiness too it, and along with not having a twang, the coopers was obviously much more refined.

I'm not expecting great things from my brewing. But I would like to improve whenever possible.


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## jaypes (29/1/13)

goomboogo said:


> I was under the impression this won't work very well for chloramine. Chlorine may be removed this way but chloramine would require filtering or treatment with something like campden tablets or an equivalent.


The use of UV for chlorine or chloramine removal is an established technology that has been widely accepted in pharmaceutical, beverage, and dialysis applications. Ultraviolet light is also used at aquatic facilities

Its from Wikipedia so it must be true!


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## stux (29/1/13)

1012 is a relatively high final gravity, and that could be the 'thickness' you are tasting. 

I like a 'chewy' beer myself, but also very dry 1008 beers

Re kit twang. I taste it in almost all kit beers which haven't been extra hopped or had extra grains added 

Once you have sanitation and temperature control worked out I usually recommend people try a FWK to compare an all-grain wort against an extract. 

If you can't tell the difference, lucky you, if you can, better look into BIAB


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

Where are you Bax? Would be happy to share some brews with you to see if you can taste similar issues with other kit and/or extract brews. I have a sneaking suspicion some people (super tasters?) are more able to taste things than others. I'm quite happy to have someone tell me they can taste "extract twang" in my brews, 'coz I certainly can't.....that would at least give me peace of mind that it's just something my palette can't pick up.

I even sent a couple of my brews into Beerfest for judging to see what an expert judge thinks. Although admittedly they're full extract with 60 min boil and my own hop additions. Bum at least differentiated above by calling it "kit twang" rather than "extract twang" as it's been called many other times. Many people seem to believe any brew done with malt extract will cause this 'twang'.


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

Stux said:


> 1012 is a relatively high final gravity, and that could be the 'thickness' you are tasting.
> 
> I like a 'chewy' beer myself, but also very dry 1008 beers
> 
> ...


It's a great experiment for someone who can taste "twang" in a kit. Although I'd prefer an extra step in there....try an unhopped extract brew using the "late extract addition" method, 60 minute boil with your own hop additions to see if you can still taste a twang. Actually do that twice...the first time with a partial boil (I do 10 litre boils) topped up with tap water....then another brew with full boil. See if there's any difference....that'll rule unboiled water out of the equation. I did this recently, brewed a Pale Ale using a 10 litre boil (actually down to under 9 litres with boil off), then another Pale Ale where I fermented only the boil, no topping off at all. I can't taste any difference between the two other than that related to the different hopping I had to do due to the different volumes. So I've now done no boil, partial boil and full boil, and all taste great to me. But I've never tasted 'twang' so it doesn't really help.


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## stux (29/1/13)

One of the things with full boil extracts, is why bother, you're most of the way to all grain anyway, time wise

Could save a lot of money on your extracts and end up with ag beer

What's your cost per batch these days carnie?

Edit: not trying to be the guy screaming BIAB in a kit forum, but it is my solution to the limitations of kit brewing. Jaypes can scream it


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## jaypes (29/1/13)

BIAB all the way


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## wbosher (29/1/13)

> Edit: not trying to be the guy screaming BIAB in a kit forum, but it is my solution to the limitations of kit brewing. Jaypes can scream it


Me too? BIAB all the way h34r:


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## stux (29/1/13)

And I suspect I am a super taster, planning on taking the test one day

Anyway, in a quest to make a beer I'm happy with I've done pretty much everything except build a 3V

Swapping sugar for the dextrose then malt etc, temperature control, biab, yeast propogation and finally pure 02

Happy now 

The 02 seems to have been the final missing ingrediant

I can make clones of commercial brews which can not be differentiated, or if they can, they're better. 

Been a goal of mine since '95

Now I'm building a 3V to make triple batches easier. It's like kegging, kegging makes brewing easier, not better


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## jhay (29/1/13)

I read about that there is a product for negating home brew sediment,effective but pricey.Look at the Sed-ex site.


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## manticle (29/1/13)

jaypes said:


> The use of UV for chlorine or chloramine removal is an established technology that has been widely accepted in pharmaceutical, beverage, and dialysis applications. Ultraviolet light is also used at aquatic facilities
> 
> Its from Wikipedia so it must be true!



Leaving the water overnight allows chlorine to come out of solution as long as it is at least 20 deg C. While UV may remove chloramines, leaving a fermenter overnight won't replicate UV applications referred to above and effective removal will require a different method (campden or RO filtering as suggested).

Depends a little on where you are Bax as to whether your water is treated with chloramines or chlorine.


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## Bax (29/1/13)

Stux said:


> 1012 is a relatively high final gravity, and that could be the 'thickness' you are tasting.
> 
> I like a 'chewy' beer myself, but also very dry 1008 beers
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'm still not quite up to speed with a lot of things, predicting where FG and OG should be is one of those things. It had stalled at 1016 for about 5 days before finally coming down and stabilsing at 1012. I suspect some of the kit may have settled on the bottom. OG seemed low at 1038. 

And you'll have to forgive me, FWK? I'll have to have another look at the acronyms. 



carniebrew said:


> Where are you Bax?


Up in Rockhampton, a guy at work brews, and I've been meaning to get him around to have a few samples and see what he thinks. I don't think he's done any brewing for a while so I can't taste any of his to compare.

All grain will happen, I know it's only a matter of time. I just want to know what I'm doing with kits before I make the progression.


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

Stux said:


> One of the things with full boil extracts, is why bother, you're most of the way to all grain anyway, time wise
> 
> Could save a lot of money on your extracts and end up with ag beer
> 
> ...


Fair question, happy to discuss. I bought my current extract in 15kg containers from G&G when they had their 20% off sale late last year. I got the Briess CBW Golden Light and their Bavarian Wheat LME. $68 each, so $4.50 per kilo. I also bought a 5kg bag of CBW's Sparkling Amber DME as I use that extract a lot less. I use around 3kg of LME per batch, and a few hundred grams of steeped grain. So maybe $15-$18 worth of extract/grain. From then on I believe the cost of making a batch is exactly the same as AG/BIAB, with hops/finings/yeast etc. Call it $25 a batch, or around $10 a slab. About $1.25 a litre?

As for why bother....it's only because I'm happy with my result, and the simplicity of extract brewing. It suits my partial boil method of making beer to a T. Add 1.3kg of extract to my 10 litres of water at the start of the boil, the rest just before flameout. Chill quickly in an ice bath (I don't cube), into the fermenter, top up and pitch yeast.

EDIT: Actually here's a post I did on this back in December, comparing the cost of bulk extract based brews to AG: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/69468-got-a-cidery-taste-doh/page-2#entry980575. It worked out to something like $4 a batch cheaper to do AG, not counting any equipment costs. 

I'm not arguing that BIAB is all that much more complex. I just haven't found a reason to bother, extract brewing works fine for me. Full boil is another matter, I currently don't have a heat source capable of boiling more than about 10 litres, nor a kettle to do it in. Nor do I own an immersion chiller or any cubes for no chill. All problems easily enough fixed...but again....loving my home brew so just haven't gone there...and may never bother. But I've learned to never say never...

EDIT AGAIN: And this is the other problem....how do partial boilers do BIAB? Late extract addition solves this problem for extract brewers. What do BIAB brewers do for full batches with only a partial boil?


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## manticle (29/1/13)

FWK = Fresh Wort Kit.

All grain wort, packaged in a cube and sold as a kit as you just add yeast (or a few litres of water and yeast in some cases).


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

Bax said:


> And you'll have to forgive me, FWK? I'll have to have another look at the acronyms.


FWK is "Fresh Wort Kit", some home brew shops sell 15 or 20 litre containers with 'fresh wort' in them made from an all grain mash/boil/hop process...the idea being you pour it into your fermenter, top up with a few litres of water (if you want) and pitch your yeast. A little pricey (FWK is about $40 IIRC), but easy way to get an AG home brew without doing any brewing....


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## Bax (29/1/13)

Ahh thanks, I don't think my local has them. 

Next time I'm in there getting some yeast I'll ask if they can get them. If I'm paying 40 dollars though I'd probably be more inclined to just buy a carton off the shelf. 

So what should I make next? It's bloody hot up here lately, so something light is what I'm leaning towards.


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## jaypes (29/1/13)

$40 might get you a carton of stubbies which is around 8-9 litres

the $40 FWK will make you 21-23 litres


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

jaypes said:


> $40 might get you a carton of stubbies which is around 8-9 litres


Not of anything worth drinking though....


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

jaypes said:


> BIAB all the way


So Jaypes, given Stux has dobbed you in as the BIAB spokesperson....how do you do BIAB with a partial boil?


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## stux (29/1/13)

carniebrew said:


> So Jaypes, given Stux has dobbed you in as the BIAB spokesperson....how do you do BIAB with a partial boil?


That was edit trickery 

Anyway, if you have a small boil pot. You can do Maxi-BIAB.

That will get you say a 20L brew out of a 15L pot.

But you can always make up the missing gravity with some extract + water. Or alternatively... brew less volume 

The point is to try ag wort, then try a mini-biab, then if you like ag and biab, try upgrade.

So, 40$ for a FWK is not 40$ for a beer.. its 40$ for the chance to try ag wort and see if you like it.

And you get the cube that you can use later too, a 10-15$ value.

Then using a 15-20L pot you can use on a stove you can make 10-15L of all-grain beer... easily. Just takes 4$ of voile from spotlight. no sewing even required! no chiller required... just put the pot in the laundry sink and surround with cooling water.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/44264-20l-stovetop-all-grain-aussie-lager/

Then if you want you can add a bucket and make 20-23L batches with a bit of extra dicking around to do a sparge and post-boil dilution

And if after that, you want to have less dicking about... then get a larger pot + heat source (or a 40L urn)

Its the progression, and about getting where you want to be with minimal investment before deciding to take it to the next level

and if you're like me, then you get a 100L pot so you can do triple batches... and then upgrade to a 3V because lifting 25KG of wet grain gets old 

no equipment gets left behind though 

BTW, my old single batch biab brew days were 4 hours. My batch cost is 12-20$/keg, including gas and yeast


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## JDW81 (29/1/13)

carniebrew said:


> Not of anything worth drinking though....


Oettinger?

Got a box of 500mL cans from dirty Dan's not long ago for about 35 clams. Not the best German beer in the world, but definitely worth drinking.


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

Stux said:


> That was edit trickery
> 
> Anyway, if you have a small boil pot. You can do Maxi-BIAB.



Or....full extract brews using partial boil/late extract addition.


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## stux (29/1/13)

Yup, but then you're still making homebrew from syrup and not what beer is made from


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

Too narrow minded.....it's just dehydrated wort....it's exactly what beer is made from! If you can't make great beer from it that's actually your failing...not the extract's!


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## jaypes (29/1/13)

carniebrew said:


> So Jaypes, given Stux has dobbed you in as the BIAB spokesperson....how do you do BIAB with a partial boil?


Love this new edit feature, I cant even follow what the **** happened here


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## stux (29/1/13)

carniebrew said:


> Too narrow minded.....it's just dehydrated wort....it's exactly what beer is made from! If you can't make great beer from it that's actually your failing...not the extract's!


And condensed milk is just dehydrated milk

And apple juice concentrate is just deydrated apple juice


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

Aye...and how good is condensed milk? Mmm...lemon meringue pie....go ahead and make me one of them with milk will you? 

And while you're at it, pour some apple juice on my apple crumble....

And don't let your kids eat those fruit salad packs...the syrup might kill them......

Seriously Stux....why do you have to trash other people's methods? Can't you just enjoy your beer like I enjoy mine? Imagine how i'd go if I jumped into the all grain forum and started taking the piss out of blokes for spending thousands of dollars on HERMS systems and Braumeisters. Does it make you feel more of a man?


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## stakka82 (29/1/13)

Only thing is carniebrew, you will join the dark side one day... And then wonder why it took you so long


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## carniebrew (29/1/13)

That may well be true, but I won't be belting other brewers for using extract. Each to their own surely? Are we gonna start picking on blokes for using hop pellets instead of whole flowers? Or buying milled grain instead of milling it themselves? And what about those dry yeast nazi's! CAN YOU BELIEVE SOME BREWERS USE DEHYDRATED YEAST?  Using US-05 is as bad as putting evaporated milk on your cornflakes!

See how ridiculous it sounds?


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## Diesel80 (29/1/13)

carniebrew said:


> That may well be true, but I won't be belting other brewers for using extract.
> See how ridiculous it sounds?


Actually i think you will...... I bash on at my mates (they don't listen) but i still bang on about it. Then when at the HBS and ppl are reaching for the kits/ DME i start preachin'. They don't want to hear it, but like I, you will feel obligated to tell them.

You will morph into somewhat of a jehovah witness of A/G brewing. Plenty of ppl will tell you to F*ck off but then there will be the ones that will invite you in, drink all your beer then tell you to f*ck off. Your destiny is already in scripture, it is foreseen....

Cheers,
D80


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## bum (30/1/13)

carniebrew said:


> That may well be true, but I won't be belting other brewers for using extract. Each to their own surely? Are we gonna start picking on blokes for using hop pellets instead of whole flowers? Or buying milled grain instead of milling it themselves? And what about those dry yeast nazi's! CAN YOU BELIEVE SOME BREWERS USE DEHYDRATED YEAST?  Using US-05 is as bad as putting evaporated milk on your cornflakes!
> 
> See how ridiculous it sounds?


I have read people say all of these things.

That's another thing you should do - read more.


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## manticle (30/1/13)

> And what about those dry yeast nazi's!


Nazi is what?

I agree with you though generally- I wish people would stop insisting AG is the holy grail, especially in kit/extract section. While my experience (and the way my brain works) suggests the closer you are to 'from scratch' ingredients, the better the potential, I also know that ingredients are no replacement for good process. Good process + good ingredients is another thing altogether but we all work out where we want to be in our own time and preaching never served the human race very well.

With that in mind Carnie and with all due respect, maybe leave off advising AG brewers on their process and ingredients for the time being and maybe confine your advice to things you have actual real world experience of (unless you have done extensive reading and if so, make the distinction clear).

I'm not referring to this thread, nor am I spoiling for a rumble. ,


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## pk.sax (30/1/13)

To OP, mate, your problem seems to be maltodex. Just try the next one with dme & dex only.

Should dry out more.

Also, what sanitizer? If sodium perc from the kit, be sure to rinse well. Especially the bottles.
Better still, get starsan or something.

PS: hope things are OK in rockie.


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## carniebrew (30/1/13)

manticle said:


> With that in mind Carnie and with all due respect, maybe leave off advising AG brewers on their process and ingredients for the time being and maybe confine your advice to things you have actual real world experience of (unless you have done extensive reading and if so, make the distinction clear).
> dasd


I understand and respect that....and I've never made any attempt to advise people on ways to perform AG brewing. I won't be commenting on best choice of base grain, what the lactic acid in acidulated malt does for your PH levels, best mash temperatures to avoid poor attenuation or the volume of sparge water you should use. But once the boil starts, there is little or no difference in the way we make beer. So I'd hope to be "allowed" to debate/discuss/advise based on my practical experience (as well as my reading) in these areas.

My contribution to the question asked about partial boils for BIAB obviously "crossed a line" somehow...but I wasn't trying to tell Robbie how to perform a partial boil BIAB, and I apologise if that's what it looked like...I was trying to compare the issue to the same problem faced by 'partial boilers' everywhere, regardless of ingredients. The general disgust held by some for those not brewing with all grain seems to rule out being a part of those discussions though...so point taken.

I can only hope for the same respect to be applied by AG brewers when people ask questions about kits and extracts. Instead of the usual flood of "twang x 2" and "stop using goop, move to BIAB" responses.


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## bum (30/1/13)

carniebrew said:


> My contribution to the question asked about partial boils for BIAB obviously "crossed a line" somehow


Four times now! This was NOT the issue he asked about nor is it a valid alternative in the context in which the question was asked.


carniebrew said:


> I can only hope for the same respect to be applied by AG brewers when people ask questions about kits and extracts.


In the same way you respected OP when you suggested the thing he tasted doesn't exist?


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## stux (30/1/13)

carniebrew said:


> Aye...and how good is condensed milk? Mmm...lemon meringue pie....go ahead and make me one of them with milk will you?
> 
> And while you're at it, pour some apple juice on my apple crumble....
> 
> ...


I'm not trashing your methods. I'm trashing your assertion that extract is exactly the same as all grain wort since its just dehydrated and its exactly what beer is made from.

Now, if you can't tell the difference between real apple juice and reconstituted apple juice and milk and reconstituted condensed milk then I guess it's not fair to expect you to be able to tell the difference between fermented wort and fermented reconstituted wort. 

Granted, I can't always tell definitively when it's heavily hopped, but I guess the same would apply to heavily spiced apple juice


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## carniebrew (30/1/13)

bum said:


> Four times now! This was NOT the issue he asked about nor is it a valid alternative in the context in which the question was asked.In the same way you respected OP when you suggested the thing he tasted doesn't exist?


You're a star on the multi-quotes....very impressive.

Only problem is you always miss everything that contradicts the woefully misguided point you're trying to make. Read my, I dunno, first three replies to Bax's post....then tell me I didn't show him any respect. IIRC, I asked him for more info about his ingredients, quizzed him about his water, then suggested the strange "mouthfeel" he had might be the use of maltodextrin. Yep...I really trashed the poor bloke. Dunno how he'll get over it. Maybe there's a hotline for blokes being offered too much assistance?

The only time I got my back up, and this whole sorry excuse for a blue started was when you weighed in with your usual "twang" comments, and denied any possibility that you can make kit brews without it...despite the fact that zillions of people have. Then you write off a whole community of successful kit brewers as "lucky bastards". That's respect?

I'm bored with this.....have one last multi quote word 'coz you won't get another out of me on it. I'm proud of my craft and sick of this shit.


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## bum (30/1/13)

carniebrew said:


> Only problem is you always miss everything that contradicts the woefully misguided point you're trying to make. Read my, I dunno, first three replies to Bax's post....then tell me I didn't show him any respect.


This is hilarious. You tell me I wilfully ignore the true point then you go on to tell me I accused you of something that I clearly did not.

Bax remarked upon a very well-documented (but poorly understood) common...feature...of kit brews. He even very nearly intuited the exact term commonly used to describe it without even being aware of it - that is how hard he is tasting it. I went on to make an completely even-handed comment about this observed phenomena and you went on to tell him that this thing he tasted is a "mythical beast".



carniebrew said:


> when you weighed in with your usual "twang" comments


My usual what?

You're a ******* moron, pal. I do not and have not ever treated kit brewing as anything but an entirely valid method.



carniebrew said:


> and denied any possibility that you can make kit brews without it...despite the fact that zillions of people have.


Please tell me how this might relate to your statement that those dodeca-bajillions of people who've observed kit-twang have noted something that doesn't exist. You're not even suggesting that they're shit brewers - you said it is a "mythical beast".



carniebrew said:


> Then you write off a whole community of successful kit brewers as "lucky bastards". That's respect?


The mentioning of the skill required to do so is not showing respect? You're the dumbest shit that was ever shat.



carniebrew said:


> I'm bored with this.....have one last multi quote word 'coz you won't get another out of me on it.


I am sorry that addressing people's points directly and in a manner that is visually easy to follow bothers you so.

You should probably get that looked at though - it's not normal.


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## Bax (31/1/13)

practicalfool said:


> To OP, mate, your problem seems to be maltodex. Just try the next one with dme & dex only.
> 
> Should dry out more.
> 
> ...


Cheers, I'm definitely going to stick to doing my own additions, that way I know 100% what I'm dropping in. 

And I'm using starsan now, early christmas present was a bottle tree, sanitiser and pump action rinser - trying to streamline the process a bit.

And cheers, everythings pretty sweet in Rocky, another 50 odd cm's left to go with the river, but for the most part it's just the usual places that are flooded. Went out yesterday and did a fair bit of looking around with work. About mid thigh deep at the worst off houses in town. I think Stanwell and some of the smaller towns out that way got hit the worst.


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## wbosher (31/1/13)

Bax said:


> Cheers, I'm definitely going to stick to doing my own additions, that way I know 100% what I'm dropping in.
> 
> And I'm using starsan now, early christmas present was a bottle tree, sanitiser and pump action rinser - trying to streamline the process a bit.
> 
> And cheers, everythings pretty sweet in Rocky, another 50 odd cm's left to go with the river, but for the most part it's just the usual places that are flooded. Went out yesterday and did a fair bit of looking around with work. About mid thigh deep at the worst off houses in town. I think Stanwell and some of the smaller towns out that way got hit the worst.



I bet you got into home brew to save money. :lol:


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## FuzzyDropbear (1/2/13)

To the OP, mate, I think what you described in your first post may have been a taste that I had in my first few brews. It's hard to describe, but it was a sweeter type aftertaste that lingers and some couldn't taste it while others described it as the 'typical homebrew taste'. After talking to the guys from my local HBS, they recommended I changed my brew booster to one with less corn syrup in it, or malt extract rather than the brew booster I had used.

The result was that as soon as I put in the new booster or malt extract, the flavour disappeared, so did another batch with the original booster in it and bam, the taste was back. So all I can suggest is that the next time you buy ingredients, ask about a brew booster with less corn syrup in it, or, alternatively, just buy malt extract as it only adds a few bucks onto the overall cost of the brew.

Cheers.


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