# How Fast Do You Drain Your Mash Tun?



## Tim F (9/3/08)

Afternoon all,

I haven't had awesome efficiency and wondering what I can do to improve. I am using an esky with a false bottom made of fine stainless mesh. I find that this drains really quickly if I let it (a few minutes max). I mash with about 2.8:1 water to grain. After draining, I batch sparge at 77C, stir well, sit for 10 minutes, then drain again. I've been getting 60% this way. Would draining any slower after mashing or sparging make a difference to extraction of sugars? Any other improvements I could make?


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## NRB (9/3/08)

As far as I understand it, with batch sparging drain speed had zero effect on efficiency as all you're doing is draining. With continuous sparging one is actually rinsing the grains ans speed is important.

Perhaps you could do 2 batch sparges to help rinse more from your grains.

How long are you mashing for? Is conversion complete? Any haze issues in your beer?


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## mika (9/3/08)

Increasing you Litres/kg ratio and boiling harder will run more water thru the grain and potentially raise efficiency. Though at 2.8L/kg you're almost there anyway.
I get consistent 60% efficiency, but then my grain is cracked by the LHBS. One time though I thought the crush looked a bit finer, grain was crushed about the same time the owner had crushed his grain for an in-house brewday and without any wheat in it I got a stuck sparge. Efficiency into the kettle jumped by more than 10%.
I'm not cynical enough to think that this is a ploy by said owner to seel more grain, just that if you crush too fine, some people are not going to have the manifold to cope with it. Crush loose and keep most people happy.
Biggest improvement I think you can make is buy a mill and experiment with your own crush settings (that's on my list).

If it matters I batch sparge and gravity drain the tun into the kettle in about 10-15mins, but like I said...I'm only hitting 60%.


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## oldbugman (9/3/08)

In my early days, the biggest jump up in effeciency I had was by sparging more.

Overall I wasnt collecting enough wort. 

Taste your spent grain, is it sweet or bland. if it's sweet thats because it is coated in sugars that you are missing out on.


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## chovain (9/3/08)

The biggest efficiency gain I have had as a batch sparger is to include a 77 C, 15 min mash out. I aim for a slightly thicker mash than you 2.2-2.5ish (so I can fit the mash out infusion), and slowly infuse with near boiling water to hit 77 C. I stir very well while slowly adding the mash out infusion though, because I believe I'll pick up too many tannins if I just dump hot water into there. I rest for 15 mins before lautering. I then add however much sparge water I need to hit my target (my target is normally 33L), then drain.

I spend about 5-6 minutes emptying the tun each time, but my reason for draining slowly is to avoid stuck sparges, not increase efficiency.


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## Zwickel (9/3/08)

continuous stirring while mashing is one key to higher efficiency!


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## mika (9/3/08)

To the mash stirrer's. Do you notice any drop in temperature from stirring ? Does it matter that much ?
Zwickel and other closed mash tun stirrer's feel free to ignore this question


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## hughman666 (9/3/08)

i jumped from 65% efficiency to 74% recently by doing the following:

1. crush finer. there is a danger of getting a stuck sparge but with a proper mashout and a false bottom this hasn't happened to me yet.

2. false bottom instead of braid in the mashtun. i get more out of the mashtun due to the better surface area coverage.

3. mashout @ 76c for 10 mins. add boiling water to get the temp up to 76c and then stir the crap out of it for a couple of minutes. leave it to sit for 10 minutes. stir again and then recirculate wort before taking 1st runnings.

4. sparge @ 78c. add the second water amount (in my case 18L) of ~80c water to bring it up to 78c. stir the crap out of it again and leave sit for 10 minutes.

results may vary for some, but this is just my story


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## Hogan (9/3/08)

Tim F said:


> Afternoon all,
> 
> I haven't had awesome efficiency and wondering what I can do to improve. I am using an esky with a false bottom made of fine stainless mesh. I find that this drains really quickly if I let it (a few minutes max). I mash with about 2.8:1 water to grain. After draining, I batch sparge at 77C, stir well, sit for 10 minutes, then drain again. I've been getting 60% this way. Would draining any slower after mashing or sparging make a difference to extraction of sugars? Any other improvements I could make?



Tim - I started off mashing with a 50lt esky and slotted copper manifold. Got 80% efficiency regularly. I suggest you look at the following, perhaps it help you improve.

1. Get a mill and you will soon see the difference in grain crush.
2. Test your mash thermometer for true temp and make sure its sitting in the middle of the mash.
3. Stir to ensure even temps.
4. Mash for 90 minutes.
5. Double batch sparge. 
6. Fast running for a batch sparge is a good thing.
7. Use a BeerSmith or Promash program to ensure your sparge volumes and efficiency readings are correct.


Cheers, Hoges.


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## mika (9/3/08)

I've occassionally double batched sparged due to space restrictions in the mash tun and never noticed better efficiency for the increased effort.
90minute mashes too have never resulted in an efficiency increase. Maybe with some types of malt ? I use mostly Weyermann and I honestly think I could shorten my mash time and not take an efficiency hit, but then haven't tried it yet as I'm restricted by the speed the HLT will heat anyway.
I can't see a mashout increasing efficiency either ? It's purpose is to denature the enzymes and provide a consistent mashing procedure. I can see the hotter water helping to improve the solubility of the mash sugars into solution, but as long as you're sparging warm all should be good ? I generally drop the sparge water in at 90degs, which will bring the mash up to ~75-77degs depending on the day. Going beyond 78 is meant to start extracting haz forming proteins from what I've read. When I first dump the sparge water in I'm generally above this, but come back below after a good stir and don't get much haze into the beer.


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## kevnlis (9/3/08)

Actually the biggest difference I ever made to my mash process was to do a decoction to mash out at 78C. This does all the things as you say mika, but the liquor also flows much better at higher temps.


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## Zwickel (9/3/08)

mika said:


> To the mash stirrer's. Do you notice any drop in temperature from stirring ? Does it matter that much ?


Mika, continuous stirring provides not only a homogeneous temp, it provides also a homogeneous spread of the enzymes.
The stirrer moves the enzymes from starch molecul to the next one and so on. Thats the same function as a stirred yeast starter.


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## dr K (9/3/08)

Commercial breweries often have "knives" that slowly cut through the mash. One set up I have seen has adjustment up /down in the tun as well to ensure even temperature distribution.
A slow run off, batch sparge or not, is very important. John Palmer goes into quite some detail (I am not bothering to look it up so you need to find it yourself).
All of that being said it is more important to have a predictable efficiency AND a complete conversion than it is to have a high efficiency.
Sparging to a boil size of 60 litres will take me maybe an hour and a half, my intitial runnings are something like 500ml per minute and as the sparge continues, and the amount of sugar left in the tun becomes less I speed up to a litre a minute.
The two major problems with sparging are stopping the grain from floating by drawing too much liquid off, this allows the bed to compact and invites stuck sparges and sparging too fast which may cause channels in the grain.

Kurtz


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## Insight (9/3/08)

I got a 5% increase in efficiency when I started using 5.2 mash stabiliser. Sydney has super soft water with high PH, so unless I was brewing something dark my mash PH was over 6. 5.2 sorted it out (see sponsors - no affiliation etc.). You can also fix with food grade acid of course.


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## Screwtop (9/3/08)

Only two items from me to achieve maximum efficiency for your system: - From Experience.

1. Add whatever temp sparge water is required for "your system" to have the "grain bed" temp at 77C for the sparge. Important that the "grain bed" temp is measured not the temp of the mash liquid. Easy if you have a thermometer mounted in the MLT below the min level of your grain bed. A bit difficult if you are sticking the thermometer in the mash from the top to check temp.

2. Drain as slowly. 

I sparge over 60 min and consistently achieve 88% into the boiler. 

Once you have determined the temp of sparge water to add to arrive at 77C grain bed temp for sparging, drain over say 20 min and check your efficiency. Then on the next batch 40 min and check efficiency, then on the next 60 min and prove for yourself what length of drain time provides the highest efficiency for your system.

Screwy


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## Stuster (9/3/08)

Screwtop, are you a fly or batch sparger? The idea that slow sparges gives higher efficiency does not seem to be applicable to batch sparging. There's no reason why it would improve in that way. With batch sparging, the sugars are in solution and you are draining them off. I can't see how doing this slowly can make any difference to how much of this sugar you get out. Palmer's writing on lautering is clearly coming at it from the fly sparging technique. In US homebrewing circles, the guru of batch sparging is Denny Conn and this is how he describes it. From here. 



> After conversion, the sweet wort is recirculated as normal and the mashtun is completely drained as quickly as possible, and an addition of sparge water is added. This is stirred into the mash, allowed to rest for a few minutes, thoroughly stirred again, and after recirculation is once more drained as quickly as the system will allow.



Since we're comparing sizes, my last beer the sparge was as quick as I could make it and I got 86%. The average for my last five batches was 81%.

I'm certainly with you on heating up the mash bed, Screwtop, though I'm not as accurate as you in what temp I get the mash bed too. I use 5-6L of approx 90C water, stir that up, and away you go. For my system, that slightly higher temperature just means no stuck sparges with wheat or rye.


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## Screwtop (9/3/08)

Stuster said:


> Screwtop, are you a fly or batch sparger? The idea that slow sparges gives higher efficiency does not seem to be applicable to batch sparging. There's no reason why it would improve in that way. With batch sparging, the sugars are in solution and you are draining them off. I can't see how doing this slowly can make any difference to how much of this sugar you get out. Palmer's writing on lautering is clearly coming at it from the fly sparging technique. In US homebrewing circles, the guru of batch sparging is Denny Conn and this is how he describes it. From here.





Screwtop said:


> From Experience.



If I say that, I mean it, not from reading or listening, but from doing, numerous times, not just once or twice! On my system  I batch and continuous sparge. Mostly continuous (fly), because I like things easy and simple. The slower I drain the higher the efficiency even with batch. Try it for yourself on your system. First runnings seems to be more important, lengthening the time to drain the second runnings (batch) increases efficiency less. The most dramatic increase is when the mashbed is heated to the correct temp. a lot of new brewers add 77 water for sparging. I aim for a mashbed temp of 77C but am happy anywhere from 76C - 79C. Ballsed up the other day and ended up at 83C :lol: first time so will have limited experience re Tanin extraction above 80C soon too I guess.


Cheers,
Screwy


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## mickoz (9/3/08)

I regularly get 70% and do nothing special and to be honest the extra 50c I spend on grain because I don't hit 80% doesn't bother me. Keep in mind that the better extraction you get on all the good stuff (sugars) you are more than likely getting more of the bad stuff too.

70% is fine for me as a batch sparger. I have no wish to grind finer or mashout for an extra 10 mins. The brewday is long enough already 

Mick


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## Julez (9/3/08)

Tim F said:


> Afternoon all,
> 
> I haven't had awesome efficiency and wondering what I can do to improve. I am using an esky with a false bottom made of fine stainless mesh. I find that this drains really quickly if I let it (a few minutes max). I mash with about 2.8:1 water to grain. After draining, I batch sparge at 77C, stir well, sit for 10 minutes, then drain again. I've been getting 60% this way. Would draining any slower after mashing or sparging make a difference to extraction of sugars? Any other improvements I could make?



Hi Tim - I assume you are adjusting your SG reading for temp? 

I do a continuous sparge in an esky with a steel mesh FB and get 73% efficiency with a stiffer mash than yours. I sparge quite slowly too, about 1L/minute. I don't do a mash out, but I do heat my sparge water to 76 degrees after my recirc. 

For those that do a mash out, how long do you let the mash sit at the higher temp before recirc and sparge? I'm interested in giving this a go to increase my efficiency, but can't find any info on the ideal duration of a mash out. 

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## chiller (9/3/08)

Julez said:


> Hi Tim - I assume you are adjusting your SG reading for temp?
> 
> I do a continuous sparge in an esky with a steel mesh FB and get 73% efficiency with a stiffer mash than yours. I sparge quite slowly too, about 1L/minute. I don't do a mash out, but I do heat my sparge water to 76 degrees after my recirc.
> 
> ...



A mashout is usually about 10 - 15 minutes


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## mika (9/3/08)

From what I've read/been told mashout only needs to happen for between 5 & 10 minutes.

Reason I wanted Zwickel to stay out of the stirrers question is he's stirring in a closed tun with the stirrer mounted thru the lid. Closed system and less temp drop from those of use who have to remove the lid and stir with the mash paddle, potentially dropping the temp of the mash while doing so.

I haven't noticed an increase in efficiency with the mashout, but I'll have to give Screwy's method a run and see if draining slower for batch sparging helps. I was intending to give fly sparging a go anyway and see whether it picks the efficiency up.


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## matti (9/3/08)

I like the the long mash 90 minutes and stir every 20 minutes to get better conversion "Idea".

To solely concentrate on the draining of the "goodies" and how fast you can do it:
It all depends how "freely" those sugars are available.

Without touching everything that "it" depends on, all post are seemingly correct.

In a very simple set up providing the conversion "HAS Happened".

1.When you raise temperature for a mash out it is only to stop the enzymatic activity to reserve the profile of the beer and get those Sugars ready for a rinse. This can be done by addition, immersion heater or direct heat.

2.Recirculation is grand but not necessary. Adding appropriate "adjusted" water to raise temperature and *still keeping the ph well below 6* will assist this. Give a stir and check temp and rest for 5-10 min.

3. Rinse as fast as you want, it won't matter Batch-sparging.

4. Add more "adjusted water and rest again for 10 minutes.

5 rinse.

If you are pedantic you may check you second runnings for pH so you don't' extract tannins. If you kept the temperature around 77-78 you'd be sweet assssss.

Swedes 1 kronor worth of advice :icon_drunk:


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## chiller (10/3/08)

Tim F said:


> Afternoon all,
> 
> I haven't had awesome efficiency and wondering what I can do to improve. I am using an esky with a false bottom made of fine stainless mesh. I find that this drains really quickly if I let it (a few minutes max). I mash with about 2.8:1 water to grain. After draining, I batch sparge at 77C, stir well, sit for 10 minutes, then drain again. I've been getting 60% this way. Would draining any slower after mashing or sparging make a difference to extraction of sugars? Any other improvements I could make?



Tim for any system to be repeatably accurate you need to know the following.

[1] the exact -- to the ml of water your system needs for a brew day

[2] the losses in the various stages.

[3] The actual evapouration rate. If you brew outside this will vary.

[4] the exact amount of sparge water needed to give you the exact boil volume to give you the final gravity beer you need. No more -- no less.

If you sparge with too much water you will have too much in the kettle, too low gravity and if not enough -- well too high a gravity.

[5] All of the above impact on your efficiency.

I purchased a new mill and the efficiency has dropped but it is consistent because I know accurately all of the above.

AND if you need an extra 500 grams of grain to make your beer it doesn't matter at all as long as every time you make a beer it is repeatable yield wise. On the other hand if you had low efficiency as a commercial brewer it would be a cause for much head scratching and bottom line examination.

On batch sparging, I use two loads of water -- grain bed to be about 75c so the HLT may have to be mid to high 80's or more to reach that for a mash out. The temperature of the grain bed on the second sparge can drop quite a bit so the water can often be at 90c to get back to the 75c sparge temp.

I stir each batch then let it sit for 5 - 10 minutes then recirculated until the run off is "lump" free and reasonably clear. It is important to recirculate at the same tap opening as the actual runoff. Recirculation will help wash some of the trapped sugars free.

Run off as fast as you have recirculated.

Steve


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## Screwtop (10/3/08)

Julez said:


> Hi Tim - I assume you are adjusting your SG reading for temp?
> 
> I do a continuous sparge in an esky with a steel mesh FB and get 73% efficiency with a stiffer mash than yours. I sparge quite slowly too, about 1L/minute. I don't do a mash out, but I do heat my sparge water to 76 degrees after my recirc.
> 
> ...



Julez, I always include a MO step, 77C for 10 - 15 min. Find starting out at 77C it's easier to maintain grainbed temp then. Have all your remaining water heated to 95C. Stir the mash lightly at end of Sacc rest BEFORE adding MO water for grainbed temp of 77C, rest for 10 min and lauter, then set the drain to the kettle/grant at 1L/min and start the run in from the HLT at 1L/min also. Depending on losses in your system, by the time the water runs from your HLT and is distributed on the top of the mash via some method your grainbed should maintain a temp around 77C for the sparge. Relax have a homebrew or get on AHB for an hour. Sometimes I start the kettle burner at 40 min and catch the final runings in a grant, this goes to the kettle once the mash is fully drained.

Cheers

Screwy


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## blackbock (10/3/08)

Tim F

I don't think anyone else has mentioned this obvious point yet: Are you draining as much liquid as possible from the tun?

I batch sparge, and have found that no matter how slowly and thoroughly I drain, once I start the boil there is usually a couple more litres of wort which has formed at the bottom of the mash tun. I can always gain some more good wort by collecting this and adding it to the rest. I haven't found any problem with this method, and it does help with the numbers, especially if your batch size is looking like it shrunk.


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## hughman666 (10/3/08)

blackbock said:


> Tim F
> 
> I don't think anyone else has mentioned this obvious point yet: Are you draining as much liquid as possible from the tun?
> 
> I batch sparge, and have found that no matter how slowly and thoroughly I drain, once I start the boil there is usually a couple more litres of wort which has formed at the bottom of the mash tun. I can always gain some more good wort by collecting this and adding it to the rest. I haven't found any problem with this method, and it does help with the numbers, especially if your batch size is looking like it shrunk.



this is why i got a false bottom. i found with braid i was leaving behind approx 2L of liquid, now the amount is negligible.


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## kevnlis (10/3/08)

matti said:


> 1.When you raise temperature for a mash out it is *only* to stop the enzymatic activity to reserve the profile of the beer and get those Sugars ready for a rinse. This can be done by addition, immersion heater or direct heat.



Again I will point out that it also reduces viscosity and sticking particles together, thereby improving the fluidity of the mash, and allowing a person to use a finer crush that would be possible when spargin at lower temps. Not to mention getting a clearer run off, in less time, with more sugars dissolved in it.


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## Tim F (10/3/08)

Great advice guys, thanks. I think what I will start doing is look at the crush and maybe ask the brewshop for finer, stir during the mash, do a mashout, double check that I am hitting 77 in the grain bed when sparging, revisit my sparge volume calcs (I did a spreadsheet for this but I think I'm overlooking something as I always end up with a lower boil volume than expected), make sure I'm fully draining the sparge water (maybe draining more slowly would help with this) and also consider a second batch sparge. I'll let you know how it goes next weekend!


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## Wrenny (10/3/08)

G'day Tim,

I agree with the early posters (Mika and Insight). When I first started grinding my own grain, I was getting efficiency of about 60%. After a few brews, I tightened up the Marga and started getting 70-75%. On my latest brew I used 5.2 stabaliser for the first time and got over 80%. Pretty happy with that.

As for sparging methods, personally I think they only make quite a small difference (maybe 5%). However I don't know which way is better. And I'm not accurate enough to find out for sure by experimenting. I Mash Out in the high seventies, batch sparge and just dump it all as fast as it will go. I'm not saying that this is the best way to go, just the way that I do it at the moment. May change in the future.


Unfortunately, I don't think your LHBS will be too keen to change the crush for you, as it is pretty fiddley.

Cheers,
Wrenny


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## chiller (10/3/08)

Tim F said:


> Great advice guys, thanks. I think what I will start doing is look at the crush and maybe ask the brewshop for finer, stir during the mash, do a mashout, double check that I am hitting 77 in the grain bed when sparging, revisit my sparge volume calcs (I did a spreadsheet for this but I think I'm overlooking something as I always end up with a lower boil volume than expected), make sure I'm fully draining the sparge water (maybe draining more slowly would help with this) and also consider a second batch sparge. I'll let you know how it goes next weekend!



Tim what water are you using for the mash? If rainwater, you may not have enough calcium to drive the mash to the 5 - 5.4 range and this can have an effect on the mash conversion. Minimum for Ales is about 50 - 60 ppm and for a 20 litre rainwater mash [assuming it is just rainwater] 5 grams of Calcium Sulphate - Gypsum, will get you close to the calcium figure needed. Calcium Chloride can also be used [different quantity] to provide the calcium but the chloride will, if not in excess provide a softer mouth feel. Generally Calcium Sulphate for Ales and Calcium Chloride for Lagers. The Sulphate and Chloride have differing impacts on hop flavour as well as the perceived and actual bitterness. 

Steve


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