# S-04 not performing as expected



## jaypes (17/7/13)

First time I have used S-04 in a Brown Porter, I made the mistake of breaking by hydrometer just before pitching so i had no idea of the SG.

It has been in the fermenter for 17 days now at 18 Degrees - it went flat out for the first 5 days then stopped.

I just got a refractometer in the mail and checked it tonight - 1026, I think it is far from finished.

I have swirled the fermenter once a day for the last 2 days, and raised the temp to 20 Degrees. I didn't really want to pitch more yeast but I may have to for it to finish

Anyone had similar experiences with S-04?


Heres my recipe:

*JP Brown Porter 1*

Original Gravity (OG): 1.043 (°P): 10.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (°P): 2.8
Alcohol (ABV): 4.22 %
Colour (SRM): 21.3 (EBC): 42.0
Bitterness (IBU): 42.4 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)

83.51% Pale Ale Malt
10.85% Crystal 60
5.64% Chocolate

2.2 g/L Fuggles (5.7% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.4 g/L Fuggles (5.7% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)

0.1 g/L Whirlfloc Tablet @ 10 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 66°C for 90 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes


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## Liam_snorkel (17/7/13)

Sounds exactly as expected. Search for other S-04 threads, then search for "rousing yeast" or "stuck ferment". 

EDIT: missed the refracto bit - defer to Matho


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## matho (17/7/13)

using a refractometer to read the fg of fermented beer requires you to have the OG and to use a converter to work out what the real FG is so using beersmiths refract tool if the OG was 1.043 then with a refract reading of 1.026 would give a FG of 1.015

cheers steve


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## slash22000 (17/7/13)

1) What Matho said

2) Did you calibrate the Refractometer with distilled water first?

3) I've found my Refractometer readings change wildly if there is any "crud" in the sample. For example, I made an oatmeal brown ale last weekend that read as 1.077 on my Refractometer after taking a few drops straight out of the kettle directly after the boil, but after I let a sample sit in a glass for a while so all the hops and break material and crap settled out, the reading was 1.065 :unsure: If there is yeast and crap in your Refractometer sample, it might throw off the reading


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## jaypes (17/7/13)

I did calibrate it before using

I might keep the temp and swirling to see if it drops anymore, I did let the sample settle before taking a reading

Cheers fellas

Go the blues!


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## manticle (17/7/13)

Did you see matho's post before slash's?
S04 seems to have a habit of stalling but using the correction calc for your refrac is the first thing to look at.


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## fletcher (17/7/13)

i've had s-04 stall on me mate. don't know what else to report. it's the only dry yeast i've used that's stalled so far. not keen to try it again. maybe once more to give it a last chance but mine has stalled at 1.017 from 1.040 so wasn't too impressed. liquid yeast from now on for all my ESBs i think


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## RelaxedBrewer (17/7/13)

I think S-04 can be sensitive to temperature drops. I have had it stall when i pitched it warm ~22C and brought it down to 17C.
It took off then can crapped out at 20-22. Nothing I did could get it to start again. I ended up pitching some US 05 to finish it off. 

I have not had a problem with it when I have pitched at cooler temps.


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## hoppy2B (18/7/13)

I've had WB06 die on me. Left it in the ferment vessel too long and it seems to have flocced out or just died and not carbed up the bottles.


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## manticle (18/7/13)

I once ate a dandelion


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## hoppy2B (18/7/13)

manticle said:


> I once ate a dandelion


Were you out of poppies Manticle?

Fletcher said S04 was the only dry yeast he has had stall on him so far. I've had no trouble with S04 the couple of times I've used it. Its pretty cold this time of year and any ale yeast could cause problems. WB06 is an all-round crap yeast though, if you ask me, especially considering its meant to be a low floccer.

The best thing I've found for rousing a yeast that's flocced out and gone quiet is to pour into another ferment vessel through a sieve swilling up the yeast on the bottom with the last couple of litres, and then keeping it warm if you can. Going through a sieve seems to be a very effective way of aerating.


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## Mattmedia (18/7/13)

I would say try and use a hydrometer, as a refractometer, as mentioned above, will give you readings that are not true once beer has been fermented.


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## RelaxedBrewer (18/7/13)

hoppy2B said:


> The best thing I've found for rousing a yeast that's flocced out and gone quiet is to pour into another ferment vessel through a sieve swilling up the yeast on the bottom with the last couple of litres, and then keeping it warm if you can. Going through a sieve seems to be a very effective way of aerating.


Surely adding that amount of oxygen, that late in the process can not be good for the beer.


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## GalBrew (18/7/13)

S-04 will usually 'stall' around 1.020. So taking that into account is it really stalling? That is what s-04 does, if you pester it with rousing and a temp rise you can persuade it to finish lower but it's a high flocking yeast.

If you really wanted the beer to finish dry, I wouldn't recommend s-04. Maybe if you pitched more and oxygenated a bit higher, but I would just go with something else.


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## manticle (18/7/13)

hoppy2B said:


> Were you out of poppies Manticle?
> 
> Fletcher said S04 was the only dry yeast he has had stall on him so far. I've had no trouble with S04 the couple of times I've used it. Its pretty cold this time of year and any ale yeast could cause problems. WB06 is an all-round crap yeast though, if you ask me, especially considering its meant to be a low floccer.
> 
> The best thing I've found for rousing a yeast that's flocced out and gone quiet is to pour into another ferment vessel through a sieve swilling up the yeast on the bottom with the last couple of litres, and then keeping it warm if you can.


Thanks for clarifying your brief, initial, seemingly irrelevant post.
However pouring partially fermented beer through a sieve is one of the worst things you could do short of pissing in it.
I apologise, genuinely for how I respond to most of your posts but I do have a major issue with most of them (and your responses to anything critical from anyone). I will attempt to be more diplomatic in future but please try and give some more consideration to what you write. A lot of it is utterly baseless rubbish.


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## mosto (18/7/13)

Hmmm....planning on using S04 in an English Pale Ale on the weekend. I'm pretty lax with taking readings, usually one to get OG then leave for two weeks or so and then another just before cold crashing to check the gravity is where I expect it to be. I might have to take a couple more during this ferment to keep an eye on it.


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## RelaxedBrewer (18/7/13)

GalBrew said:


> S-04 will usually 'stall' around 1.020.


This is not my experience when using this yeast. 
Like I said before, I have only had a problem when I pitch warm and then slowly cooled it over a day or 2. 

I have found that fermenting this yeast below 18C is nice and clean. Anything above this starts to get fruity (particularly if it is 20C or over).

If you do not have good temperature control I would not recommend this yeast. How ever if you do, it can be fantastic. Never had a yeast that flocculates as well and makes a very clear beer without having to do anything special.
I would bet that most people that have had problems with stuck fermentations have either pitch warm and the let it cool or have relatively poor temperature control and have dips at night time.

RB


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## hoppy2B (18/7/13)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> Surely adding that amount of oxygen, that late in the process can not be good for the beer.


No I wouldn't recommend doing that to a beer late in the ferment. 

Some of the English ale yeasts that need rousing during fermentation might benefit from it though.


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (18/7/13)

Next time, Instead of using S04 use Nottingham. Its still an English yeast and if you made a starter with it, the beer will be finished fermenting by the time you have finished pouring the starter in the FV.

NB* I may have exaggerated about the ferment time.


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## GalBrew (18/7/13)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> This is not my experience when using this yeast.
> Like I said before, I have only had a problem when I pitch warm and then slowly cooled it over a day or 2.
> 
> I have found that fermenting this yeast below 18C is nice and clean. Anything above this starts to get fruity (particularly if it is 20C or over).
> ...


No problems with temp control here, I have used it a few times at a steady 18C. I usually get it down to an FG of 1.012-1.011, but not without watching it like a hawk. Compare that to us-05 or 1056, where it will consistently finish out at a lower terminal gravity with little input from me.


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## Yob (18/7/13)

Bollox.. If it needs rousing, use a long spoon, gently stirring, you can whip up a fair amount pretty quickly... Sieve indeed..


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## manticle (18/7/13)

This is what I mean hoppy.
At no point, after fermentation has begun, no matter what yeast, should you run the fermenting wort/beer through a sieve into another bucket.
That is awful advice and I wish you wouldn't give it. Stir, rock or gently rack - yes but sieve?
Please don't.


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## hoppy2B (18/7/13)

Some English breweries pump from the bottom of the ferment vessel to the top and as well as the yeast getting a good rousing the brew gets a good aeration. If you want a good fruity English ale you need to get the yeast pumping and fermenting as fast as possible. Should finish well then too.


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## JasonP (18/7/13)

hoppy2B said:


> Some English breweries pump from the bottom of the ferment vessel to the top and as well as the yeast getting a good rousing the brew gets a good aeration. If you want a good fruity English ale you need to get the yeast pumping and fermenting as fast as possible. Should finish well then too.


Aeration should be done in the growth stage not ferment stage. This will give negative affects if continuosly aerated. I doubt breweries pump to aerate. If they do, it's probably to circulate to maintain uniform temperature in the fermentor.

Which brings me to the point about this yeast - I have used it a few times. I don't like the yeast but it has never stalled on my - inculding HG ales. I reckon it stalls on people due to lack of oxygen atthe begining of ferment.


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## manticle (18/7/13)

hoppy2B said:


> Some English breweries pump from the bottom of the ferment vessel to the top and as well as the yeast getting a good rousing the brew gets a good aeration. If you want a good fruity English ale
> 
> you need to get the yeast pumping and fermenting as fast as possible. Should finish well then too.


They don't pour it through a sieve when it stalls at 1020 though do they? I'm trying to be polite hoppy but please stop posting rubbish disguised as knowledgeable advice.


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## hoppy2B (18/7/13)

I never said to pour it through a sieve when it stalls at 1020 Mr Manticle. Maybe you need to lay off the grog a bit so you actually understand what it is people are writing. Otherwise you just look like an illiterate.


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## manticle (18/7/13)

Totally illiterate, me. Maybe you need to consider your words and their implications more carefully?


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## Yob (18/7/13)

hoppy2B said:


> Some of the English ale yeasts that need rousing during fermentation might benefit from it though.


Seemed pretty clear you were actually, perhaps you should explain yourself better if you are saying something you don't actually mean.. Just a thought that may help peeps decipher potentially misleading information.. After all, few of us are mind readers and less of us can interpret what the hell you are on a about if you don't type exactly what you mean..

Ed: just as a bye... Can't stand that yeast myself, won't have it in the house, never had a good result with it


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## slash22000 (18/7/13)

I've only used S04 once, and I had the opposite problem. It went completely ape-shit, spewed krausen all through my fermenting freezer, never seen anything like it before. Didn't stall, beer ended up fairly low (not sure how low), but I didn't much like the taste. Going by this thread, and Google, it seems most people don't. Not sure if maybe we're doing it wrong or what.


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## GalBrew (18/7/13)

To people like slash who have had no probs with s-04, how much do you oxygenate the wort compared to when you use other yeasts?


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## jaypes (18/7/13)

I gave it a heap of aeration into the fermenter as it was cubed. I just checked it then - 1025

I might try Yob's advice and rouse with a spoon


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## Yob (18/7/13)

Raising temp a bit won't hurt either mate


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## jaypes (18/7/13)

I have it at 20 now, might bump it to 22


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## JasonP (18/7/13)

jaypes said:


> I have it at 20 now, might bump it to 22


to be honest, i'd be chucking in some more yeast and be done with it. Its been in the fermentor almost 3 weeks and done bugger all for the last 2. You want the ferment to finish as soon as possible. Any reason why you dont want to pitch more yeast?


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## jaypes (18/7/13)

Because im a tightwad, there should have been plenty of healthy yeast to do its job


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## JasonP (18/7/13)

jaypes said:


> Because im a tightwad, there should have been plenty of healthy yeast to do its job


should have been, but need plenty oxygen, FAN, mg, zn, vitamins - so your initial pitch might be done. Up to you what to do but i'd be doing this.

Did you re-hydrate?


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## jaypes (18/7/13)

Yes, i always rehydrate dried yeast but i dont use it that often


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## slash22000 (18/7/13)

My S04 was also rehydrated. No special oxygenation though.


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## Bridges (19/7/13)

I'm currently using S-04 for the third time. Each time I've said I wouldn't use it again as I've had to coerce it into dropping the last few points as per the OP by swirling, raising temps and once chucking more yeast at it when doing a k and k. Current batch a BIAB brown ale seems to have stalled at 1016 when I was expecting 1012. I'm swirling and bumping a degree a day and trying to remain patient. Fast ferment test is also handy. If you look at fermentis' own tips and tricks guide for their range it is an interesting read and surprise surprise, they recommend pitching more yeast for a stuck ferment. 

Edit ad linky


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## TasChris (19/7/13)

Yob said:


> Ed: just as a bye... Can't stand that yeast myself, won't have it in the house, never had a good result with it


 :icon_offtopic: I agree, I can taste S04 a mile away..will not brew with it. There are many better yeasts than this one.


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## ash2 (19/7/13)

Bridges said:


> I'm currently using S-04 for the third time. Each time I've said I wouldn't use it again as I've had to coerce it into dropping the last few points as per the OP by swirling, raising temps and once chucking more yeast at it when doing a k and k. Current batch a BIAB brown ale seems to have stalled at 1016 when I was expecting 1012. I'm swirling and bumping a degree a day and trying to remain patient. Fast ferment test is also handy. If you look at fermentis' own tips and tricks guide for their range it is an interesting read and surprise surprise, they recommend pitching more yeast for a stuck ferment.
> 
> Edit ad linky


Thanks for the link,good reading. :beer:


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## Bizier (19/7/13)

To me it sounds like you have S04 behaving as I would expect. You need to manage your expectations downward to match the shitty yeast. Did I mention I don't like S04? I don't like S04 if I did fail to mention it. I know English yeasts and dry aren't really two concepts which marry well, but give me Nottingham any day of the week over S04.


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## matho (19/7/13)

Jaypes,

1.025,

Are you correcting your refact reading or is it just what you read, alcohol will distort a refract reading making the reading higher than it is.

if you aren't correcting your reading and your OG was 1.043 then your beer is currently sitting at a FG of 1.013, considering that you have used over 15% crystal and roast and you mashed at 66 deg I would say it is done.

cheers steve


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## gruntre69 (27/8/13)

RelaxedBrewer said:


> This is not my experience when using this yeast.
> Like I said before, I have only had a problem when I pitch warm and then slowly cooled it over a day or 2.
> 
> I have found that fermenting this yeast below 18C is nice and clean. Anything above this starts to get fruity (particularly if it is 20C or over).
> ...


I used it for the 1st time and I am a new brewer. It was recommended by the brew shop guy for making a tooweys old copy. I pitched it at 24 with 1037 and it dropped to 18 overnight. The fermentation was very slow and I couldn't get it to finish any lower than 1014.... I tried temp changing but not agitating. The beer actually tastes OK but I assume the alc % would be quite low.

I want to do this recipe again now but am gun shy on this yeast now...



GalBrew said:


> S-04 will usually 'stall' around 1.020. So taking that into account is it really stalling? That is what s-04 does, if you pester it with rousing and a temp rise you can persuade it to finish lower but it's a high flocking yeast.
> 
> If you really wanted the beer to finish dry, I wouldn't recommend s-04. Maybe if you pitched more and oxygenated a bit higher, but I would just go with something else.


I don't particularly like dry beer much. does this mean if the FG is higher the beer will be less dry? Does this also mean that a less dry finish will be a lower alcohol beer??? Slightly confused.. :unsure:


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## GalBrew (27/8/13)

gruntre69 said:


> I don't particularly like dry beer much. does this mean if the FG is higher the beer will be less dry? Does this also mean that a less dry finish will be a lower alcohol beer??? Slightly confused..


A beer with higher FG will have less alcohol than a beer with a lower FG fermented from wort with the same OG. A higher FG however does not necessarily mean the beer will be less dry. I generally will result in a beer with a 'fuller' mouthfeel, however the full effects of a higher FG a dependent on the sugar composition of the wort. Was it higher in unfermentable dextrins? Was it a highly fermentable wort comprised of more simple sugars from a lower mash temp? These factors (and others) all play a part.


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## Pickaxe (27/8/13)

Asi have just acquired a refractometer, and see the op to be quite relevant, as I tried to take my first fg with it today and thought I'd made an error, what do you his mean by a refractometer adjustment? 
I have a brix to fg converter, but am confused by the reading. I'm missing something, that op is too. I have og reading per hydrometer. ?

Got a verified og today via refractometer but don't know how to use it for fg.

Any help there?


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## Pickaxe (27/8/13)

Just want to clarify the reasoning/logic/understanding behind it.


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## Markbeer (28/8/13)

if you google "refractometer calculator" you should find a link to various calculators that will calculate a corrected fg for you using a refractometer.

once beer has fermented or started to the refractometer needs the reading needs adjusting.



Pickaxe said:


> Asi have just acquired a refractometer, and see the op to be quite relevant, as I tried to take my first fg with it today and thought I'd made an error, what do you his mean by a refractometer adjustment?
> I have a brix to fg converter, but am confused by the reading. I'm missing something, that op is too. I have og reading per hydrometer. ?
> 
> Got a verified og today via refractometer but don't know how to use it for fg.
> ...


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## Byran (14/9/13)

Just used S04 for the first time in an English bitter. 
Fermented at 18 deg. Swirled the fermenter each afternoon only.
Went from refractometer 1.046 to 1.024 in 3 days and dropped clear. Beersmiths refractometer adjuster reckons its at 1.011 and is finished.
In 3 days. Thats fast. And it tastes dry and very interesting. I love it.
Although I have used Styrian Goldings which I have never tasted before so it could just be that flavour that I love. 
I think ill keg it now and drink it.


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