# Fermenting Under Pressure



## wobbly

What are the percieved advantages /benefits (if any) of fermenting the beer under pressure (15psi) as happens with the Kiwi Ssytem (forgotten the name) and the "Onederbrew" currently referenced under the topic "My Plastic Conical"?

I get it that the beer will be naturally carbonated at the finish of the fermentation period. And the pressure may/will assist in dumping the yeast cake out of the bottom of the cone.

Just wondering what other benefits there might be.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## kevin_smevin

wobbly said:


> What are the percieved advantages /benefits (if any) of fermenting the beer under pressure (15psi) as happens with the Kiwi Ssytem (forgotten the name) and the "Onederbrew" currently referenced under the topic "My Plastic Conical"?
> 
> I get it that the beer will be naturally carbonated at the finish of the fermentation period. And the pressure may/will assist in dumping the yeast cake out of the bottom of the cone.
> 
> Just wondering what other benefits there might be.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wobbly



Apart from the whole process being a little quicker, fermenting under pressure also reduces ester and fusel alcohol formation. I'm sure there are other effects but that's what i get off the top of my head.


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## Bribie G

When I was at Beervana in NZ a couple of years ago I was talking to a brewer who said that fermenting under pressure definitely gives a cleaner lager beer, as most Kiwi mainstreams are. In fact I was heretically impressed with the likes of Export Gold and Tui etc that they drink over there - pretty dismal megaswills but one thing you can say about them is that they are clean clean clean,none of the soapy mouse piss flavour you get in VB or Tooheys New. So what little malt flavour and hop flavour there was actually came through quite firmly.


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## DJR

Bribie G said:


> When I was at Beervana in NZ a couple of years ago I was talking to a brewer who said that fermenting under pressure definitely gives a cleaner lager beer, as most Kiwi mainstreams are. In fact I was heretically impressed with the likes of Export Gold and Tui etc that they drink over there - pretty dismal megaswills but one thing you can say about them is that they are clean clean clean,none of the soapy mouse piss flavour you get in VB or Tooheys New. So what little malt flavour and hop flavour there was actually came through quite firmly.



The megas ferment under pressure here too, I wonder if the NZ brewers either lager for a bit longer, use less sugar, better yeast, or not such high gravity, or lower temperature


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## Nick JD

DJR said:


> The megas ferment under pressure here too, I wonder if the NZ brewers either lager for a bit longer, use less sugar, better yeast, or not such high gravity, or lower temperature



Which brewery uses Morton Coutts's continuous technique?


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## jyo

I know 'Dent' on here has been experimenting with this method recently. I'll link him the thread. He seemed pretty happy with his initial results.


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## dent

Yeah, I've been giving the pressure ferment a go lately. The principle seems to be that CO2 pressure prevents the yeast from generating esters which would otherwise result from the warmer ferment.

I set it up in a 50L keg. I have a coupler connected with cornelius style adapters, with the spunding valve and pressure gauge attached to the gas post. 

I brewed a 40L batch of pale lager with 2042 danish lager yeast - I used a whole cake of yeast from a previous non-pressure batch. I fermented at 14 degrees and 18 psi, however I was careful to start the ferment cold, at about 4 degrees on pitching. I do this so as to ensure a minimum of esters while there is not yet any top pressure. The ferment came up to pressure within a day or so, and then I set the temperature to 14 degrees - in this weather I need heating for lagers!

It is pretty amazing how much CO2 is generated when the ferment is going full blast, it is a like a gas leak going on in the fridge.

Anyhow the primary ferment was done in about six days - the beer was halfway carbonated at that pressure and temperature so it is nice for tasting the hydro samples. As advertised, the beer was not at all estery or fruity, there was no acetaldehyde, or diacetyl/VDKs. Good malt character. There was a fair bit of sulfur, which is to be expected with the closed lager ferment. This was pretty full on at day 7 but after another week it had mellowed out a great deal. The sulfur goes away on its own after a while, or you can wash it out with a bit more CO2 if you are in a hurry. It does give the beer a bit of a commercial character.

I actually dispensed 20 litres of this brew at a party that was on only two weeks after brew day, the keg got sucked down pretty quick, it stood well beside beers brewed traditionally.

I can post some pictures of the setup if anyone likes, it is pretty simple.


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## Spoonta

yes please on the pics


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## Nick JD

I fermented under pressure once with a HUGE Belgian that the yeast couldn't quite cope with. I kegged it way before FG to free up the fermenter and it finished ... eventually. I just burped the keg every day. 

Was my best dark strong. Poor bugger too months to finish though.


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## dent

Ok, here are some pictures - pretty simple setup:
















This spunding valve will just let the gas out constantly at a more or less regulated level. Others will reach a threshold and then release it. I hooked it up to my CO2 cylinder and tested it with the regulator to see what pressure and adjustment it started leaking at. 

I like that with these kegs you can unscrew the spear and valve assembly, and you end up with a 60mm or so threaded entry at the top of the keg - I just fill the wort in through there rather than through the beer-in post, since it is quicker and I have to put the oxygenation stone in there anyhow.

The other part I like as fermenters, is that you can put a bit of water in them, then put the whole thing on the gas burner with the spear assembly loosened -- boil the hell out of it for excellent sanitation.


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## redbeard

Hi Dent,

how much wort do you ferment in keg ? is it in a fridge / freezer ? Do you use co2 to transfer it to a corny or another 50l ?

cheers


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## dent

I've been doing 40L batches in 50L kegs. I think if you tried a full batch for the keg volume it would work, but there may be trouble as yeast blowoff will get in the spunding valve and probably screw with the release setpoint. 

I transfer the batch to 2 x cornies with CO2 as a closed system - out the fermenter beer-out, in the corny beer post. Best is to start with both ends at the same pressure, with the CO2 supply attached to the supplying keg, then you allow gas to slowly leak from the recieving keg, which will allow beer to flow in. 

I do all the fermenting in the fridge, especially as I prefer to have a very cold start to the ferment during the growth phase - 4 degrees is a good starting point, then 6 until the pressure comes up (a day or so), then to 14. You could start at the higher temperature, but I think that would require you to pressurise the keg manually from the start - you'd have to keep the gas on too, as the gas will dissolve in the beer.


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## booargy

That is how I carb my beers by using it as secondary. May have to try it with the ferment.


PRV is SMC AP100-02 from RS components but I can't find it on their site.


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## Nick_D

Hey Dent, where did you get the adjustable relief valve on your setup? Do you remember a part name etc? I'm building a spunding valve but am struggling to find one of these little adjustable valves. Sorry to post in such an old topic..... If anyone else has any info, I'd really appreciate it, cheers.

Nick


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## Danscraftbeer

Dents post was nearly 4 years ago haha. I'm now pressure fermenting. I got the spunding valve set up ready to go from keg king.

I asked the question on Kegmenters and some info here: (more recent) http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89407-kegmenter-are-they-good-to-use/


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## wobbly

OK at the risk of copping a bagging (again) I will offer details on the standard Williamswarn process for pressure fermenting

Set the VPRV (spuding valve) to control at 1.5bar (21psi) for both Lagers and Ales - No issues with my brews (I haven't brewed any Belgians or Stouts) but the recommended procedures are the same
Fermentation temperatures using dry yeast - Ale 23C for 4 days by which time terminal gravity is achieved PIlsner/Lagers 15C for 3 days followed by 18C for a further 3 days "D" rest - No issues with my beers
At terminal gravity cold crash to 1C in one setting from fermentation temp and hold for 12/24 hours so as to drop the yeast out of suspension - No need to set temp to change in small daily increments 
I have brewed with US-05, Nottingham, W34/70, S23 and SO4 with no noticeable issues with the above temp/pressure/time regimes
Following dropping the yeast then I clarify using a Colloidal Silica product at a rate of 2mls per liter over 24/36 hours and then consume 
Wobbly


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## siege

wobbly said:


> OK at the risk of copping a bagging (again) I will offer details on the standard Williamswarn process for pressure fermenting
> 
> Set the VPRV (spuding valve) to control at 1.5bar (21psi) for both Lagers and Ales - No issues with my brews (I haven't brewed any Belgians or Stouts) but the recommended procedures are the same
> Fermentation temperatures using dry yeast - Ale 23C for 4 days by which time terminal gravity is achieved PIlsner/Lagers 15C for 3 days followed by 18C for a further 3 days "D" rest - No issues with my beers
> At terminal gravity cold crash to 1C in one setting from fermentation temp and hold for 12/24 hours so as to drop the yeast out of suspension - No need to set temp to change in small daily increments
> I have brewed with US-05, Nottingham, W34/70, S23 and SO4 with no noticeable issues with the above temp/pressure/time regimes
> Following dropping the yeast then I clarify using a Colloidal Silica product at a rate of 2mls per liter over 24/36 hours and then consume
> Wobbly


How does dry hopping fit into this system?


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## dicko

ADMIN:

Guys,

Please keep technical topic posts on topic.


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## wobbly

siege said:


> How does dry hopping fit into this system?


Dry hopping can be carried out at/close to the end of fermentation phase as/when the yeast starts to drop out of suspension by removing the sediment bottle, "disposing" of the settled yeast and then adding up to 3g/l of hops to the sediment bottle, adding about 500mils boiling water to the bottle and then stirring the hops to hydrate, then top up the bottle with beer foam and then reattaching the bottle to the WW and opening the butterfly valve. 

This last step causes the hop liquid to shoot up into the fermentation chamber and over time it will resettle back into the sediment bottle 

Leave the system like this for how ever many days and then remove the hop filled sediment bottle and cold crash and clarify as normal

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Hoffdegg

Hi Wobbly,

Im really interested in your method as it seems so quick, especially for lagers. I have just finished my lager in the traditional way (2 week at 9 degrees then 4 weeks at 4 degrees to lager) and it's way to long to wait!
I have just ordered myself a kegking pressure fermenter. Looking forward to testing it out...

When you do it your method under pressure, do you get a sulphar taste in the beer?
Do you still have to condition/lager the beer as you normally would have to with a lager?
So it is pretty much ready to drink after 7 days? And it matches up with a lager that has been fermented over 6-8 weeks?
The high pressure doesn't do anything to the yeast and produces a nice clean tasting lager?
Can yoh pitch off the yeast cake after fermenting at thag pressure or does the pressure kill the yeast over time?
Any information you can be given will be very much appreciated...
Hoff


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## wobbly

Hoffdegg said:


> Hi Wobbly,
> 
> Im really interested in your method as it seems so quick, especially for lagers. I have just finished my lager in the traditional way (2 week at 9 degrees then 4 weeks at 4 degrees to lager) and it's way to long to wait!
> I have just ordered myself a kegking pressure fermenter. Looking forward to testing it out...
> 
> When you do it your method under pressure, do you get a sulphar taste in the beer? *Not that I or those that drink my beer can tatse*
> Do you still have to condition/lager the beer as you normally would have to with a lager?* I don't normally brew lagers but the two that I have I have started drinking after about 9-10 days and they have lasted in the machine for about a few weeks and I haven't noticed any age related conditioning effects over time. *
> So it is pretty much ready to drink after 7 days? And it matches up with a lager that has been fermented over 6-8 weeks?* In the Machine/Fermenter I have the standard cycle using dry yeast is 3 days at 15C followed by a further 3 days at 18C then cold crash to 1C for 12 hours to drop yeast out followed by two days of clarification phase using Silica Dioxide. All of this is carried out with the pressure relief valve set at 1.5bar*
> The high pressure doesn't do anything to the yeast and produces a nice clean tasting lager?* I ferment at 1.5bar (21psi) and that has no detrimental effect on the yeast. Think about a large brewer where the tanks are 10 meters high and the pressure at the bottom of the tank is about 1.5bar. My understanding is that at pressure above 3 bar you will start to impact on yeast health*
> Can yoh pitch off the yeast cake after fermenting at thag pressure or does the pressure kill the yeast over time?* Can't comment as I have never tried this with either lager or Ale yeast but I don't see why you couldn't harvest yeast for reuse after washing etc*
> Any information you can be given will be very much appreciated...* You might want to down load the user manual from this site as that may be a good starting point for you *http://www.williamswarn.com/Our-User-Manuals#.Vxgssf2Q-M8
> Hoff


I have not seen the Keg King Pressure Fermenters so I'm not in a position to comment. The machine I use has been designed to do a number of sequences I mentioned in post #16 so I don't have to worry about things like temperature and pressure control, yeast harvesting, cold crashing, clarification and serving but hey that comes at a price (which I was and still are) happy to pay. It's not necessary to leave the finished beer in the machine until it is all consumed it is easy enough to transfer the carbonated beer to bottles or a keg if that suits you

As stated above down load this manual and have a read as it may answer a few of your questions http://www.williamswarn.com/Our-User-Manuals#.Vxgssf2Q-M8 There is also a hundred pages plus on the subject on Homebrewtalk that can be viewed at this thread. http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=44344

Happy for you to PM me if you think I can be of further assistance

Cheers

Wobbly

edit for spelling


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## Hoffdegg

wobbly said:


> OK at the risk of copping a bagging (again) I will offer details on the standard Williamswarn process for pressure fermenting
> 
> Set the VPRV (spuding valve) to control at 1.5bar (21psi) for both Lagers and Ales - No issues with my brews (I haven't brewed any Belgians or Stouts) but the recommended procedures are the same
> Fermentation temperatures using dry yeast - Ale 23C for 4 days by which time terminal gravity is achieved PIlsner/Lagers 15C for 3 days followed by 18C for a further 3 days "D" rest - No issues with my beers
> At terminal gravity cold crash to 1C in one setting from fermentation temp and hold for 12/24 hours so as to drop the yeast out of suspension - No need to set temp to change in small daily increments
> I have brewed with US-05, Nottingham, W34/70, S23 and SO4 with no noticeable issues with the above temp/pressure/time regimes
> Following dropping the yeast then I clarify using a Colloidal Silica product at a rate of 2mls per liter over 24/36 hours and then consume
> Wobbly


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## Hoffdegg

Hi Wobbly,

Im really interested in your method as it seems so quick, especially for lagers. I have just finished my lager in the traditional way (2 week at 9 degrees then 4 weeks at 4 degrees to lager) and it's way to long to wait!
I have just ordered myself a kegking pressure fermenter. Looking forward to testing it out...

When you do it your method under pressure, do you get a sulphar taste in the beer?
Do you still have to condition/lager the beer as you normally would have to with a lager?
So it is pretty much ready to drink after 7 days? And it matches up with a lager that has been fermented over 6-8 weeks?
The high pressure doesn't do anything to the yeast and produces a nice clean tasting lager?
Can yoh pitch off the yeast cake after fermenting at thag pressure or does the pressure kill the yeast over time?
Any information you can be given will be very much appreciated...
Hoff


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## Hoffdegg

Sorry wasn't meant to post that twice...!


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## Hoffdegg

Thank you very much for all this information. Can't wait to give it all a go, guess all you can do is experiement/trial and error. 

Thanks again
Hoff


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## wobbly

The 7 day cycle for Ales and 9 days for lagers is predicated on the basis that you can or are able to progress seamlessly from one step to the next using the machine/fermenter I have.

Being able to drop/dump the yeast at the end of fermentation is basically the same as could be achieved with a conical that has a bottom dump vale fitted - On my machine it requires no intervention, just happens and you can see where it is at.

The clarification phase is also easier as the system is built to be able to "Inject" it into the beer without having to release the Co2 pressure and open the device and thereby letting in Oxygen which isn't really desirable. Undoubtedly you could rig something to carry this phase out using a/the racking port somehow and "Inject" the clarification liquid in with Co2 pressure 

I use Colloidal Silica Dioxide as my clarification liquid in preference to Gelatin as a personal preference for Mineral additions rather than Animal based

As for aging Lagers/Pilsners I don't see the need as the two I have brewed have turned out fine after 9 to 10 days "grain to brain". People talk about the need to allow the beer to "clean itself up" and I'm not sure just what they mean by this. If it's allowing time for the yeast to come out of suspension and take with it some of the sulfur taste then the clarification phase on my machine does this in a mater of a couple of days.

There is another topic on here somewhere that talks about using modified kegs to ferment under pressure and in that topic they mention that the lagers fermented under pressure are very clean to the taste and don't require the so called mandatory weeks of conditioning etc but I'm not sure if they also use some form of clarification liquid. I'm not knocking those that see it as being necessary brewing under atmospheric conditions it's just something I and others have found to not be required when pressure fermenting.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## neal32

What's the highest pressure anyone has gone up to during the active ferment?

I just got back from a work trip, I had a munich dunkel fermenting at 10 degrees at 15 psi for 10 days before I left and thought it was close to done so I capped the fermenter. It was a pitch onto a previous yeast cake of 2308 and only my second lager under pressure. I got back today and tried to put on the spunding valve and the pressure guage flatlined. I released what seemed like heaps of pressure to get it back down to 15 psi. So how high have the pressure fermenters among us gone?

I wiill update after a sample.


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## malt junkie

neal32 said:


> What's the highest pressure anyone has gone up to during the active ferment?
> 
> I just got back from a work trip, I had a munich dunkel fermenting at 10 degrees at 15 psi for 10 days before I left and thought it was close to done so I capped the fermenter. It was a pitch onto a previous yeast cake of 2308 and only my second lager under pressure. I got back today and tried to put on the spunding valve and the pressure guage flatlined. I released what seemed like heaps of pressure to get it back down to 15 psi. So how high have the pressure fermenters among us gone?
> 
> I wiill update after a sample.


This was discussed in another thread, you should be fine, maybe a lil over carbed perhaps?!


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## neal32

The sample tasted great and it was at 1.011. I'm slowing bleeding pressure until I get to 15 psi and then will recap, do a d-rest(unnecessary based on the sample but good practice) then down to 4 degrees for a couple of weeks until a keg frees up


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## rude

What type of spunding valve have you got on youre set up Neal


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## dr K

Like so many things it is not a wonder drug, but it works. I started mucking about in a very manual way some years ago after reading about german lager production. At the time I was unaware of the other factors such as ester reduction, but became after the publication of the excellent book "Yeast" by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff. The Keg King Spundling valve was a godsend for me !!
I ferment most of beers under pressure in either Fermentokegs or quickies in 9 litre party kegs. My normal pressure is 0.5 to 0.8bar (say 10psi) and my normal batch 27 to 30 litres in a Fermentokeg.
Overall observation is that the quality of the beer does not improve, the fermentation time is the same as normal, there may be some reduction of esters in lagers but this is not apparent in ales.
I have noted, however, that this is a very good way to make high alcohol beers (say triples).
So apart from high ABV which I rarely make, why bother?
----I seriously like pouring beer and drinking it straight from the fermentor
---So long as I keep my pressure below a bit under a bar there will be no detrimental effects on the yeast,I can dispense half a keg or so out the fermentor, keg the remaining on my next brew day and just ferment on the yeast cake without wasting energy cleaning the fermentor
---The totally closed (no way in) environment is the perfect match for my septic (to some) brewing practices......

K


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## manticle

You could no chill, ferment and dispense all from the same vessel drK.


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## dr K

You could no chill, ferment and dispense all from the same vessel drK. 

Like VB??


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## manticle

I guess that depends on your recipe. To each their own. I won't judge you.


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## Mardoo

Hmmmm, reading through this thread I wonder how meads and ciders would go fermented under pressure?


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## Wnkmox

Hi, 

I am extremely keen to purchase one of the oxebar pressure fermenters but have a few questions about pressure fermenting?

1. Do I need spunding valve to achieve this and why, could I not just carbonate using my existing keg system instead?
2. Do I need to connect relief valve to my CO2 tank before connection to fermenter so I don't accidentally over pressurise it?
3. Do I need to connect my CO2 tank to fermenter after transferring wort or should I let pressure build naturally?
4. I have read that pressure fermenting reduces fermentation periods, is this the case and do you have any guidelines you could point me towards?
5. I note that brewery's that pressure ferment put their dry hops in fermenter straight away, is this something we can do with your fermenter and do you know what sort of ratio of dry hops to use?
6. Do I need to add CO2 from my bottle to transfer finished beer to keg?
7. Is opening from valve to collection bottle large enough that muck/yeast doesn't get stuck when trying to dump/collect?
8. Lastly I am real keen on using fresh fruit such as watermelon in the later stages of fermentation, how would you add these to a pressure fermenter such as yours?

Many thanks for your response in advance, 

Cheers
Callum

Sent from my iPhone


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## XaxisYcross

Hey there,

I recently bought one of these Oxebar jobbies and am fermenting a blonde ale in it now. I'll see if I can answer some of your questions...



Wnkmox said:


> 1. Do I need spunding valve to achieve this and why, could I not just carbonate using my existing keg system instead?
> 
> _You don't *need* a spunding valve and the default package doesn't come with the pressure kit so unless you intend on fermenting under pressure you can just use the normal type of bubbler airlock that comes with the fermentasaurus. If you do intend to femrent under pressure with the pressure kit you could probably get away with attaching a quick disconnect to a hose and making a type of blow off vessel. Or you could periodically vent the PRV on the lid. You just won't be able to regulate it is all. I do believe the PRV is set to rlease pressure at a certain point for safety but that point may be too high for your desired CO2 level._
> 
> 2. Do I need to connect relief valve to my CO2 tank before connection to fermenter so I don't accidentally over pressurise it?
> 
> _To connect your fermenter to your CO2 tank, as long as you have a one-way check valve on your gas line, that should cover any back blow that could occur from the pressure inside the fermenter to the regulator. Otherwise you just attach your gas line to the post on the fermenter and slowly crank up the pressure inside until your CO2 regulator reads what you want it to for whatever it is you are doing, ie. transferring to keg, purging, carbonating._
> 
> 3. Do I need to connect my CO2 tank to fermenter after transferring wort or should I let pressure build naturally?
> 
> _The pressure will build naturally as the wort ferments and turns into beer. There is just no-where for it to go when it is under pressure so it stays in solution in the beer up to the point at which any spunding valve is set to._
> 
> 4. I have read that pressure fermenting reduces fermentation periods, is this the case and do you have any guidelines you could point me towards?
> 
> _This was something I was unaware of but from the single batch I have done, it would seem to be the case. I had a batch of Blonde Ale with an OG of 1.042 and pitched a starter of 1272 American Ale 2. I think it was at 1.010 within about 4 days, maybe even sooner, that was my first check I have no guidelines, I'm sorry!_
> 
> 5. I note that brewery's that pressure ferment put their dry hops in fermenter straight away, is this something we can do with your fermenter and do you know what sort of ratio of dry hops to use?
> 
> _I'm not usually one to dry hop that much but I wanted to give it a go with this new bit of kit because it looked like an interesting process. Once I saw that the beer was pretty much ready, I removed the dump bottle/yeast collection jar thingy, emptied the trub that had been collected in it. I then cleaned the jar, sanitised it with star-san and put about 20g of Cascade pellets in, flushed that with some CO2 and then rescrewed the jar onto the base of the fermenter. Open the butterfly valve, flush she goes, the hops get all swirled around with the brief change in pressure so the rise to the top, swill about a bit, get a bit of rehydration in the wort and then gradually begin to settle back down into the bottom and eventually back into the jar having done their job. That sediment is then away from the beer due to the conical shape and easy to leave behind or discard. Quite ingenious._
> 
> 6. Do I need to add CO2 from my bottle to transfer finished beer to keg?
> 
> _You could probably use a bit of the pressure from the fermenter but it wouldn't push the entire volume over to a keg. Take the spunding valve off, whack it onto your totally pressurised keg, making sure the valve is closed. Then attach the CO2 to the fermenter, but not with the gas on. Attach the liquid out post on the fermenter to the liquid out post on the keg, ease open the CO2 on your cylinder and ease open the valve on the spunding valve until you have a gradual transfer from fermenter to keg. Totatlly closed system._
> 
> 7. Is opening from valve to collection bottle large enough that muck/yeast doesn't get stuck when trying to dump/collect?
> 
> _It's a satisfactory size. Certainly big enough to collect anything you could think of that needs collecting/dumping. There's always going to be a bit of gunk lurking around when you are dealing with trub/yeast/sediment. I should probably spray the opening with star san or some other cleaning agent before reattaching the jar. I'll try that next time. Also if it is fermenting under pressure, unscrewing that jar can be fizz central so make sure there is a tray underneath and do it really slowly or you'll get a face full of yeast._
> 
> 8. Lastly I am real keen on using fresh fruit such as watermelon in the later stages of fermentation, how would you add these to a pressure fermenter such as yours?
> 
> _I may have to pass that one on to someone with a bit more knowledge about brewing with fruit but I guess you could always add it to the collection jar. Anything added to that gets shot up into the fermenter when the butterfly valve is opened again due to the pressure differential. So anything you can fit into that jar, and it's not really that big, you could theoretically add to your fermeneter._


I hope that helps.
It's a pretty awesome bit of gear actually. Bulky though. Make sure your fermentation has the space to accommodate it. Keg King have the measurements on their site and it's worth checking that before your drop your hard earned.
Here's how it looks in my ferm fridge.




Goddamn image orientation! How does that even happen?

If anyone has any other questions, I'll do my best to help where I can.

Cheers,
John


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## dr K

Excellent points.
I have a Fermentasurus, in fact I have three, and have made cider and a number of ales in them.
To say that they are fantastic is almost an understatement, its suprising but its actually nice to watch the ferment.
I ferment chill and dispense,that floating pickup works a treat, when I need it again I keg whats left and clean it out (incredibly easy) maybe I keep the yeast, maybe not.
I use WLP002 a hell of a lot and its pretty easy to recover....

K


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## Bribie G

Pity they don't have a squatter version that would fit in their own KegMate (I have 3).


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## Wnkmox

Thanks heaps for replays, very helpful. I have made the leap and purchased one, just waiting for it to arrive. Couple further questions, has anyone fermented to the Williams warns schedule and has anyone dry hopped 50-100g and if so how? Thanks in advance!


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## Bribie G

Competition season beckons. I've ordered a KK spunding valve and QD and will pimp it as per Grott's suggestion on another thread.

Does anyone have any experience of pressure fermenting in a cornie (with shortened dip tube) ?

I'm looking to do a micro-megaswill style process by fermenting over gravity, transferring to a clean cornie and topping up with deox water, so I end up with a full cornie.

Even using proper lagering etc, my comp lagers have always turned out a wee bit fruity no matter what I do.


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## bradsbrew

I have a 23L mytton rod keg that a cut the dip tube down in. I only used the KK spunding valve with it once, cleaning krausen out of it is not much fun. I would suggest using a blow off tube for the first few days. I now have a fermtasorearse for the pressure ferments (and for staring at, whilst it does its thing)


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## mtb

I use a Kegmenter, so almost a corny (and doubles as one, if I ever need it).

The 26L capacity alleviates the need for a blowoff tube and I can get my girly arms in there to clean without an issue.


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## pirateagenda

has anyone noticed a slowing of fermentation under pressure compared to normal at the same temps. 

Last brew took about a week to get to fg, same brew normally takes 4-5 days, this brew i am at 3.5 days and down to 1.028 from 1.05, both US-05 yeast. 

The first one I did accidentally let get to 30psi on day 2, so i thought that may have stunted the yeast and it finished a bit higher than expected (1.011 compared to 1.008 last brew), with some slight metallicy/apple flavour that I am guessing is yeast stress related. Current ferment has been sitting at 10PSI from about 36 hours in.


----------



## mtb

My fermentation times haven't increased, granted they haven't decreased either. I cap it at 10PSI though. Could you be underpitching the yeast?


----------



## pirateagenda

I wouldn't think so. 2 packs of us-05's, hydrated in 30C water for 20 mins before pitching, for 40L batch of 1.05 OG, should be plenty of yeast.


----------



## mtb

30C could be a little warm.. Probably not the cause of your problem but I can't imagine it would be good for the yeast.


----------



## pirateagenda

the specs for safale rehydration are 27C +/- 3C, so that should be ok, but thinking into it a little more, maybe i need to wait longer for it to cool closer to the wort temp so it's not shocked when dumped into 19C wort.

I'll try rehydrating cooler next time and waiting longer and see if it kicks off a bit faster.


----------



## Jack of all biers

mtb said:


> 30C could be a little warm.. Probably not the cause of your problem but I can't imagine it would be good for the yeast.


30C is the lowest you want really. Lallemand and others recommend 30-35C for re-hydration water temp and the newest article attached to AHB http://www.homebrewtalk.com/correctly-rehydrating-dry-yeast.html recommends 35-40C. In another post somewhere recently Lyrebird Cycles (who has researched the matter for wine yeasts) also stated that 40C was the go. Me personally 35C is my happy medium.


----------



## mtb

Well there you have it, learned something new tonight. Cheers gents.


----------



## Dan Pratt

On the yeast hydration part of this thread. 

For ages I tried to hydrate my yeast at the recommended temps, that always then required to slowly adjust that yeast to the temp of the wort over several additions of wort to the said hydrated yeast, result is clean fermented beer, kicks off within 12-24hrs, fermented out in 3-4days.

These days simply use water direct from the tap at the temperature its at, which is often within 5c of the wort. Sprinkle yeast on, leave covered for 15mins. Stir and leave covered for another 5mins. Pitch into wort, result is clean fermented beer, kicks of within 12-24hrs, ferments out in 3-4days. 

Saves time when trying to get water to the manufactures temp and then stuffing around adding wort to attemperate the yeast to pitching temps. 

Simple, efficient and results in great beer.


----------



## pirateagenda

Pratty, maybe thats what has slowed me down, in the past i was hydrating in tap temp water and it was kicking off fast, now since ive been mixing it higher and adding it higher it seems to have slowed the start down. might go back to the simple way!


----------



## mr_wibble

mtb said:


> 30C could be a little warm.. Probably not the cause of your problem but I can't imagine it would be good for the yeast.





Jack of all biers said:


> 30C is the lowest you want really. Lallemand and others recommend 30-35C for re-hydration water temp and the newest article attached to AHB http://www.homebrewtalk.com/correctly-rehydrating-dry-yeast.html recommends 35-40C. In another post somewhere recently Lyrebird Cycles (who has researched the matter for wine yeasts) also stated that 40C was the go. Me personally 35C is my happy medium.


I agree. I found an article the other day that suggested re-hydrating at much less than 40C resulted in a significant die-off of yeast.

Ah-ha, found it: http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/3301.html#3301-4

TL;DR - Rehydrate a packet of yeast in 100ml of water at 40C
Rehydrating at the wrong temperature can kill 60% of your yeastie buddies.
Reduce temperature to within 10C of wort before pitching
Pitch within 1/2 an hour.


----------



## Crusty

For those of you with a couple of pressure ferments under your belt,
what psi did you go with?
I dry hop a few of my beers & I believe you can dry hop under pressure from day 1.
How did you go about this? Results?
Are any of you guys cranking up the pressure towards the end of ferment to naturally carb your beer?
Any standout differences vs just a normal ferment.


----------



## Mardoo

8-10 psi. I am not going for hardcore ester suppression so chose this level. Somewhere I have a paper I'll track down that talks about specific effects of different pressure levels.

I have been dry hopping with 3 or so days left. Haven't tried from the beginning. ******* fantastic results from dry hopping under pressure! Fully recommend it!

Oxygen exclusion from pitch to serve has been my original goal with the pressurised ferments and transfer, and I'm very happy with the results. I'm seeing greater hop presence, greater shelf life, and want to do some side-by-sides to test malt presence. 

However, I greatly prefer the results from English character yeasts done under no pressure whatsoever during ferment. IMHO these yeasts do best when allowed to breathe. 

I've started with messing with bumping up the pressure towards the end of ferments to achieve carbonation, but don't have a big enough body of observations yet to offer anything concrete.

Standout differences so far:
1. Better hop presence
2. Ester suppression in high-ester yeasts
3. Better shelf life with eliminating as much O2 as possible in the ferment-transfer-serve stream. 

All completely anecdotal, but the results do square with what's seen in commercial-brewery studies I've read. I'm very happy I have the option to pressurised ferment if I want. 

Next steps include having a go at saisons and weissbiers this way.


----------



## Crusty

Mardoo said:


> 8-10 psi. I am not going for hardcore ester suppression so chose this level. Somewhere I have a paper I'll track down that talks about specific effects of different pressure levels.
> 
> I have been dry hopping with 3 or so days left. Haven't tried from the beginning. ******* fantastic results from dry hopping under pressure! Fully recommend it!


If you can track down those papers, that would be real handy.

Dry hopping? Just vent the keg, dry hop & put the spundie back on which is still set @8-10psi? Pressure will build again.
After ferment has finished, do you remove the spundie for cold crashing, if you cold crash.


----------



## Mardoo

Yeah, I'll look for them tomorrow. Whacked tonight.

Dry hopping as you said. I've actually been considering going longer dry hopping, perhaps at the start as you suggest, since my ferments don't go much over 5 days before reaching clean-up stage.

I remove the spunding valve as soon as the ferment is finished, then cold crash.


----------



## Crusty

Mardoo said:


> Yeah, I'll look for them tomorrow. Whacked tonight.
> 
> Dry hopping as you said. I've actually been considering going longer dry hopping, perhaps at the start as you suggest, since my ferments don't go much over 5 days before reaching clean-up stage.
> 
> I remove the spunding valve as soon as the ferment is finished, then cold crash.


I know quite a few of the Yanks dry hop from the start with no ill effects & like you said, the ferments done & dusted relatively quickly.
I'm probably just going to pressure ferment then transfer to another keg & hook up the gas at this early stage. When I've got a few under my belt, I'll get a bit more adventurous & try a natural carbonation. I assume you know the ferment is finished once the gauge drops to 0.


----------



## Mardoo

I'll add I'm not currently re-using yeast except from top crops. Otherwise I might reconsider the cold crashing. I freeze yeast and make a little extra every time I grow up a pitch. I'm totally in the dark about the effect pressurised fermenting has on future yeast generations. 

I'm starting to think maybe a mod should move some of the last couple pages to an appropriate pressurised fermenting thread.


----------



## pirateagenda

another yeast / pressure related question.

Is anyone pitching onto a yeast cake after a pressure ferment? 

I have a yeast cake from US-05 used to brew a pale ale, still under 20Psi pressure about 1 week old at that has been sitting under 4C, hasn't had any oxygen contact since initial pitch. It was brewed at 10psi then capped with 5 points to go. 1.050 OG down to 1.012 FG. I'll be brewing a 1.073 IIPA. Is this viable?

The original beer was awesome, although I am slightly concerned that the yeast may be stressed from ramping the pressure to 20psi at the end of the first ferment, and is a 1.050 brew to high to reuse?


----------



## rude

Crusty said:


> I know quite a few of the Yanks dry hop from the start with no ill effects & like you said, the ferments done & dusted relatively quickly.
> I'm probably just going to pressure ferment then transfer to another keg & hook up the gas at this early stage. When I've got a few under my belt, I'll get a bit more adventurous & try a natural carbonation. I assume you know the ferment is finished once the gauge drops to 0.


The pressure shouldn't drop after ferment unless you cold crash it 

I take samples as it ferments with a bronco tap & check in the hydrometer to see how the yeast has attenuated

Both times (only done 2 ) ferments with it the spunding valve hasn't released to the set 10 psi , gauge went all the way around
had to manually release the pressure back 

Both beers were Kolsch the second pitched on top of the first & og 1050 fg 1010 there abouts so happy with attenuation
both beers came out really nice 

On the buid 1V at the moment but cant wait to ferment in it again


----------



## rude

pirateagenda said:


> another yeast / pressure related question.
> 
> Is anyone pitching onto a yeast cake after a pressure ferment?
> 
> I have a yeast cake from US-05 used to brew a pale ale, still under 20Psi pressure about 1 week old at that has been sitting under 4C, hasn't had any oxygen contact since initial pitch. It was brewed at 10psi then capped with 5 points to go. 1.050 OG down to 1.012 FG. I'll be brewing a 1.073 IIPA. Is this viable?
> 
> The original beer was awesome, although I am slightly concerned that the yeast may be stressed from ramping the pressure to 20psi at the end of the first ferment, and is a 1.050 brew to high to reuse?


I have reused the yeast straight on top of the cake ,this beer was slightly better than the first 
but was slightly diff grain bill


----------



## pirateagenda

I'm leaning towards giving it a shot, but really don't want to wreck this batch as there is a LOT of hops going in! 

On another note, did an all citra version of Dr Smurto's Golden Ale, with 2g/l dry hopped as my last pressure ferment and it was sensational. The best beer I have made by far and has to be up there as one of the best I've tasted! Fermented under 10PSI pressure until a bit over 5 points to go, dry hopped, c02 added to repressure, spunding valve taken off at that point to cap the fermentation, left for 4 days, transferred to kegs with 20PSI into fermenter and slightly less in receiving keg / bled very slowly, drank the next day and carbonation was spot on. Hop aroma and flavour was very present for only 2g/litre dry hop. The first keg was dry in 2 nights with 3 drinkers.


----------



## Mardoo

pirateagenda said:


> The original beer was awesome, although I am slightly concerned that the yeast may be stressed from ramping the pressure to 20psi at the end of the first ferment, and is a 1.050 brew to high to reuse?


I've been doing some reading of a few papers on lab experiments on pressurised fermenting. Regarding reusing yeast, they say that they haven't seen a reduction in yeast health at the end of fermentation, however it MIGHT shorten the number of generations yeast is viable. However, there was nothing conclusive on that and it was proposed as a follow-up study.

I posted a TLR in the spunding valve thread, but I'll post the papers here since they're relevant. Basically stay under 20 PSI/138 KPA and you'll see few, if any issues.

Oh, and I've had nothing but success with very hoppy beers done under pressure. I just use low pressure, solely to ensure oxygen exclusion, but it's fantastic how much more hop presence there is.

View attachment CO2 Pressure and Ester and Fusel Formation.pdf

View attachment Controlling Yeast Fermentation.pdf

View attachment Improving Yeast Fermentation Performance.pdf

View attachment Yeast Response to Fermentation Under Pressure.pdf


----------



## Lager Bloke

I've used White Labs Kolsch/German Ale yeast around 4 times-did 1st pitch started in a litre of wort then next batch tipped straight onto yeast cake in FV.Once I'd keged 2nd brew,tipped remnants into glass flask and drained most of the remaining beer off yeast cake but didn't wash it from this stage.Have done another 2 batches with the same yeast-the 4th one I'm drinking now and there is no difference between any of the ones other than the slight changes to grains/hops.Have a new pack of yeast bought last week so maybe use it for next ferment-would like to think if I can get the 4 ferments out of 1 packet that's pretty good value,Rob.


----------



## Hpal

I've got some 34/70 that I've been reusing for probably a year. I just save some and keep it in the fridge then repitch it next brew, haven't taken note of how many times it's been reused but it performs awesome and no sulphur which I find first gen 34/70 can give a lot of.


----------



## Coldspace

Usually pitch my lagers onto the yeast cake in the kegmenters and all turn out sensational , better than the first gen batch. I usually only go one cake ferment, then dump and use new starters.

citra golden ales rock, done a few myself. 2 grms dry hop citra is just perfect with smurtos grain bill....


----------



## trevgale

I usually ferment under pressure going up to 20-25 psi prior to chilling. After I transfer the beer off the yeast I give the fermenter a bit of a shake and then transfer the yeast to a couple of sanitised 1.25L PET bottles with carbonation caps that have been CO2 flushed and pressurised. When I want to pitch I just transfer some slurry under pressure into the fermenter.

I believe this method minimises the chance for contamination and I have successfully used the same yeast for 10 generations storing for up to a month between brews. I have never had a problem with viability and the ferment kicks off as quick as if I had just used a starter. The yeast is stored under pressure which I know is not the best for it but I have not seen any issues.

Anyway based on my experiences I would not be worried about pressure fermentation damaging the yeast, at least not for WY2124 and WY1056 which are my usual strains.


----------



## Lionman

I picked up some cheap Chinese kegs and although advertised as 19L, they are actually 21L and don't fit in my keg fridge. 

Instead of staring into the bottom of an empty pint glass, feeling sorry for myself I decided to try out pressure fermenting using them. 

Here is a pacific ale ish beer happily fermenting away using WLP001, currently sitting around 20PSI at 21c.







Im using a minikeg to catch the blow off. Seems to be working well. 

Hopefully I can fill a corny from it after pushing most of yeast and trub out.

I've set up the blow off tube so two kegs can vent into one minikeg in the future if I feel so inclined.


----------



## rude

Just wondering how everone is taking hydro samples
Im using beer out connect with a bronco tap
Found a line pressure calc spreadsheet & worked out I need 3.7 Metres long line 5mm ID
to pour a sample without too much foam a 39 psi 18c
Does this sound about right


----------



## Danscraftbeer

I just use 1mt hose on a disconnect and shoot into a 2lt jug then let it settle. Degas it then pour into the hydrometer.


----------



## Mall

Same, pressure fermenting has, according to my sampling pals, improved my beer a great deal.


----------



## tugger

I just go direct from the out with a tap. 
I get a bit of foam but there is enough for a sample once settled.


----------



## Lionman

I just squirt a bit of foam in to a glass, it doesnt make much difference when you use a refractometer.


----------



## Mall

My setup, works well...












IMG_20170804_092212



__ Mall
__ 4/8/17



Pressure ferment

















IMG_20170804_092205



__ Mall
__ 4/8/17


----------



## cliffo

Is that the spunding valve from ibrew?

Does it work well? I was considering building my own but if this one works fine then I might just buy this.


----------



## Mall

Yep, the ibrew version. It's OK but I think I could do better.


----------



## Dae Tripper

Danscraftbeer said:


> I just use 1mt hose on a disconnect and shoot into a 2lt jug then let it settle. Degas it then pour into the hydrometer.



Hey buddy, what is your degasing technique?


----------



## rude

I only had 2.5 M beer line left tried that but not much better than my short length
Took a sample this morning short length & just let it settle then poured more in 
to get enough for a sample
I have been going straight into the hydro tube wait a few hours to degas while spinning
In all it works but a bit time consuming


----------



## Danscraftbeer

Dae Tripper said:


> Hey buddy, what is your degasing technique?


Just swirl it in the jug a few times to release the carbonation. Warm beer goes flat pretty quick.


----------



## Dae Tripper

I have been shaking the hydo tube heaps but it still releases co2. I might just have to cope...


----------



## Dan Pratt

here is my keg king spunding valve, works great everytime. Set at just over 10psi for fermentation.


----------



## bradsbrew

Mine works well too. And i am fermenting at 22 /23 degres, on purpose. Drinking carbed beer within a week.


----------



## Lionman

The Pacific Ale is now chilling in the kegerator.

Just pitched an El Dorado lager with S189 and a Red IPA with the WLP001 slurry from the previous batch. Hopefully they come out tastey.

The ale is heated with a belt to 20c. The lager seems to be sitting at around 17c. I'll do two ales next and have them both at 22c I think. The White Labs yeasts seem to like slightly warmer temps.


----------



## pcqypcqy

I fill up a schooner glass so I have enough for a sample and a wee taste of my own. To speed up the degassing and warming up I just pour it between two glasses for a while. It does take a little bit of doing to get rid of all the bubbles.


----------



## Dae Tripper

Lionman said:


> The Pacific Ale is now chilling in the kegerator.
> 
> Just pitched an El Dorado lager with S189 and a Red IPA with the WLP001 slurry from the previous batch. Hopefully they come out tastey.
> 
> The ale is heated with a belt to 20c. The lager seems to be sitting at around 17c. I'll do two ales next and have them both at 22c I think. The White Labs yeasts seem to like slightly warmer temps.
> 
> View attachment 107491



Those temps seem a bit high to me. Like many I target 18c for ales. 
I am doing some lagers with Oktoberfest yeast at the moment, starting them off at 11c ish.

But hey if your making nice beer you could tell me to f off and I would be ok with that.


----------



## Lionman

Dae Tripper said:


> Those temps seem a bit high to me. Like many I target 18c for ales.
> I am doing some lagers with Oktoberfest yeast at the moment, starting them off at 11c ish.
> 
> But hey if your making nice beer you could tell me to f off and I would be ok with that.



I find the white labs west coast strains get a bit sleepy at 18, prefered range is 20-22. I have brewed with WLP001 and WLP090, both are quite similar. US-05 is ok at 20, slightly cleaner at 18.

I haven't done a a lager before but I chose S189 because a lot of people are saying its very nice at 18. On top of this, pressure supposedly reduces ester production so hopefully it works out. Bit of an experiment with that one.

It really comes down to the specific strain.


----------



## Dae Tripper

Lionman said:


> It really comes down to the specific strain.



You are spot on there!


----------



## malt junkie

Remember ester production is kept in check by pressure so the couple of degrees to keep the yeast vibrant should have little to no effect on taste.


----------



## bradsbrew

malt junkie said:


> Remember ester production is kept in check by pressure so the couple of degrees to keep the yeast vibrant should have little to no effect on taste.



Can anyone provide a brief explanation as to how pressure does this? I know it does and i am stoked with the results but it does seem wrong.
This beer went into the fermenter Saturday last week and i was drinking it Friday night and kegged it Saturday. Poured another cube of it straight in.

Bit hazy due to 1kg of galaxy at flameout in 100L


----------



## Lionman

bradsbrew said:


> Bit hazy due to 1kg of galaxy at flameout in 100L



wow,.. hahaha,.. damn.

edit: actually that's not THAT much for 100L. Equivalent to about 250g or so for a standard batch size.



bradsbrew said:


> Can anyone provide a brief explanation as to how pressure does this? I know it does and i am stoked with the results but it does seem wrong.



I think it has something to do with the pressure affecting the yeasts uptake of amino acids which prevents the production of esters. Could be more related to the increased CO2 in solution rather than the pressure itself, not sure on that one.


----------



## malt junkie

bradsbrew said:


> Can anyone provide a brief explanation as to how pressure does this? I know it does and i am stoked with the results but it does seem wrong.
> This beer went into the fermenter Saturday last week and i was drinking it Friday night and kegged it Saturday. Poured another cube of it straight in.
> 
> Bit hazy due to 1kg of galaxy at flameout in 100L


There was a lot of info linked in one of the first threads relating to pressure fermenting. I'll link it if I get the chance later, but interestingly diacetyl (spulling?) production initially sky rockets (compared to standard ferment) but cleans up quicker too, I believe all due to the warmer temps and therefore quicker ferment.


----------



## Danscraftbeer

I don't subscribe to the theory of getting away with warmer temps for pressure fermenting. I've never found a reason to ferment at higher temps. I pressure ferment but starting at the lowest temp range for the yeast. Even lower. The yeast count/pitch rate is the most important in my feeling. Reading others posting notes I often finish my ferments at the temps some people start them at.
For Eg: US-05 I will start as low as 15c and finish at 19c. 20c being the maximum temp that is at the end of fermentation.
$0.02

There is some benefits of the lower temp pressure ferments is that it tames it from needing blow off control etc. Blow off situations with a kegmenter can lead to the gas out blocking and not knowing what the real pressure build up is in the keg. Potentially dangerous. Consider an exploding keg! and the mess I dont ever want to experience so taming the fermentation seems prudent IMO. I may have come close to exploding my 23lt corny kegmenter when hop matter blocked the gas out and who knows what the pressure reached inside. It was a wrangle to release the pressure and got sprayed stout everywhere. Best to tame the big high gravity brews with lower temps.


----------



## Lionman

I don't let any hop matter into the keg when pressure fermenting so that should limit the risk of a blocked gas post. I filter the wort through a hop spider from the cube which does a pretty good job of keeping any chunks out. Only the finest of particles (300 microns) get through and they would be the least likely to cause any issues.

The red IPA is the highest gravity brew I've done yet in the keg at 1.073. No blow off yet. The lager is raging though. Smelling truly sensational.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Im now onto my 4th beer of pressure fermentation. Since the first beer at 23c and 15psi I have toned it back to the std temp of 18c and around 10-11psi. 

I will get a much better read of the suppression of the esters when i do my Fake Blonde using W34/70 lager yeast @ 15c. I have done 2 previous batches without pressure in the old coopers FV and they both had estery aroma combined with the dry hop so I will get a real tell sign with that beer for the true effects of the pressure ferment.


----------



## malt junkie

Dan Pratt said:


> Im now onto my 4th beer of pressure fermentation. Since the first beer at 23c and 15psi I have toned it back to the std temp of 18c and around 10-11psi.
> 
> I will get a much better read of the suppression of the esters when i do my Fake Blonde using W34/70 lager yeast @ 15c. I have done 2 previous batches without pressure in the old coopers FV and they both had estery aroma combined with the dry hop so I will get a real tell sign with that beer for the true effects of the pressure ferment.


Don't forget to post results here, it'd be nice to have some real world results with something bright and clean.


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

bradsbrew said:


> Can anyone provide a brief explanation as to how pressure does this?



Acetyl ester formation (eg amyl acetate, aka banana flavour) is dependent on the level of acetyl CoA and the corresponding alcohol (pentanol in the example given). 

High CO2 concentration during ferment reduces biomass formation and thus reduces production of both acetyl CoA and the alcohols. Net result is a reduction of ester formation.

Reference: Renger et al _J Inst Brew_ 1992


----------



## rude

Just keged & drinking APA & very happy used Notto yeast 1052 to 1014 -13
Fermented out the bulk after 3 days so cranked pressure up to 30 psi kegged after 10 days
Tipped another APA on top 1054 to 1012 in 3 days at 5 psi so cranked valve but only got to 10 psi
Checked again 1012 two days later so cc ing to keg only 5 days 
Loving the beers from pressure ferment

Does anyone bottle some from the leftovers
I have attached the bottle wand to the bronco tap but getting heaps of foam
A small keg would be good then use carbonation cap


----------



## Danscraftbeer

rude said:


> Does anyone bottle some from the leftovers
> I have attached the bottle wand to the bronco tap but getting heaps of foam
> A small keg would be good then use carbonation cap


Both Mini Kegs and PET bottles of any size. With the beer transfer lead and still needs to be done under pressure or it goes to froth. Especially if its warm. Actually I would'nt try to bottle warm but you can into a mini keg. Tip is the higher the pressure when transferring the better. If you finished the beer at 30psi then you need to set the co2 bottle to at least 30+ to transfer it.
Only good to bottle cold. Pressurize the PET bottle first, connect beer line, you undo the carb cap (with dip tube) until it hisses to release pressure to fill.


----------



## rude

Wasn't thinking straight
Carb cap straight into Pet Bottles
Cheers


----------



## cliffo

It's good to be part of the club.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Enjoy. It's a slippery slope.


----------



## cliffo

It's begun already - they don't both fit into my current fermenting fridge so am now on the lookout for a new one (or maybe two bar fridges if I can find ones of the appropriate size)


----------



## Yuz

rude said:


> Wasn't thinking straight
> Carb cap straight into Pet Bottles
> Cheers


Is it possible to bottle carbed brew? 
I've bottled my first batch (slightly carbed in the 'saurus) using the Pressure Kit & generic wand - no problems, but I'd image a full-schedule carb will be difficult?


----------



## Crusty

cliffo said:


> It's good to be part of the club.
> 
> View attachment 108182
> View attachment 108183



Where did you get those fermenters from cliffo?


----------



## cliffo

Crusty said:


> Where did you get those fermenters from cliffo?



ibrew - https://www.ibrew.com.au/products/kegmenter-20-and-26-litre-from

They seem great quality.


----------



## Crusty

cliffo said:


> ibrew - https://www.ibrew.com.au/products/kegmenter-20-and-26-litre-from
> 
> They seem great quality.



Cheers.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Yuz said:


> Is it possible to bottle carbed brew?
> I've bottled my first batch (slightly carbed in the 'saurus) using the Pressure Kit & generic wand - no problems, but I'd image a full-schedule carb will be difficult?



In the kegmenter, I ferment under around 10psi pressure for a few days. i then turn up temperature and allow the pressure to build to around 20 or 25psi. When I cold crash, this reduces down to around 12 to 15psi, which is bang on for most styles. 

I then transfer under pressure to corny's, but there's no reason you can't do it straight into PET's. You might want to over carb it a bit more before transfer, as you'll lose a few psi in the transfer itself.

Just keep the gas hooked up to the fermentosaurus to a few psi above your target and it should keep pushing.


----------



## rude

pcqypcqy said:


> In the kegmenter, I ferment under around 10psi pressure for a few days. i then turn up temperature and allow the pressure to build to around 20 or 25psi. When I cold crash, this reduces down to around 12 to 15psi, which is bang on for most styles.
> 
> I then transfer under pressure to corny's, but there's no reason you can't do it straight into PET's. You might want to over carb it a bit more before transfer, as you'll lose a few psi in the transfer itself.
> 
> Just keep the gas hooked up to the fermentosaurus to a few psi above your target and it should keep pushing.



I ferment at 5 psi then after 3 to 4 days (ale ) crank valve to get 30 psi
After 7 to 10 days
I then cc fill keg then fill pet bottles with carb cap no worries 
Thanks Dans I think it was for putting me straight too easy


----------



## cliffo

...and we're away with a Czech Pilsner.



I've also brewed a lager with rice adjunct and fermenting with S189 - hopefully the temps stay where they are as I can't fit the second kegmenter in the fridge.


----------



## Dae Tripper

Ahhh feck.....le beast. It did warn me but I was determined to hop the Pacific Ale inside.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Dae Tripper said:


> Ahhh feck.....le beast. It did warn me but I was determined to hop the Pacific Ale inside.



jaysus, what happened there?


----------



## Dae Tripper

pcqypcqy said:


> jaysus, what happened there?


That is how British Ale III treats a first time user. It was at 1015, apparently not finished yet, then foamed pretty bad too.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Dae Tripper said:


> That is how British Ale III treats a first time user. It was at 1015, apparently not finished yet, then foamed pretty bad too.



Had you packaged it into that keg and it had kept fermenting in there?


----------



## rude

I'de say no pressure relief valve took lid off to dry hop and walla
I could also be wrong
Made a few blews also with the pressure fermenting along the way
I've only been doing 23 L batches in my 50 L so heaps of head space


----------



## pcqypcqy

rude said:


> I'de say no pressure relief valve took lid off to dry hop and walla
> I could also be wrong
> Made a few blews also with the pressure fermenting along the way
> I've only been doing 23 L batches in my 50 L so heaps of head space



Yeah, that's the other thought I had was no relief valve. Once she's roaring, it really doesn't take long for it to increase the pressure.

The first time I did a 40 litre batch of porter in my kegmenter, I set up a blow off line into a sanitised corny. Ended up needing it too. Spunding valve was on the corny.

I'm finding now that if I have around a 40l pre boil and around a 36 litre post boil, most styles seem to go alright in the kegmenter. I do have to clean and resanitise the spunding valve occasionally but I haven't had an issue with it. This volume suits my system well (3x50litre) and gives me two corny's that are more or less full.


----------



## Gloveski

God help me I'm joining the crew just ordered 2 of the 26 litre kegmenters today from ibrew


----------



## rude

You will need help cause once you taste the beers from it you won't be able to stop


----------



## Dae Tripper

pcqypcqy said:


> Had you packaged it into that keg and it had kept fermenting in there?



It has been there the whole time.


----------



## pirateagenda

I've had the kraused explosion happen also. released the pressure, opened the lid to see about 3 inches of head space. Forgot i left the hops upstairs. ran up and got them and came back to krausen rapidly growing towards the opening and then spewing out before i could get the lid back on.


----------



## rude

There's the pressure relief up above God bless


----------



## malt junkie

Has anyone use a secondard kegmenter (or pressure fermenter) with hops in purged and then transfered under pressure for dry hop. Opening and creating that much mess seems like way more work than rinsing another vessel


----------



## mtb

Dae Tripper said:


> Ahhh feck.....le beast. It did warn me but I was determined to hop the Pacific Ale inside.View attachment 108302


----------



## Dae Tripper

mtb said:


>


Lol almost!


----------



## pcqypcqy

yeah right, so even with the mini keg as blow off it still exploded through that and out everwhere? that's insane. even with my syrupy porter it only spewed about 500ml of gunk into the secondary vessel.


----------



## Lionman

I put a pacific ale on on the weekend, decided to experiment with dry hopping from pitch.

I racked the wort from the cube to the keg, pitched my starter, oxygenated, chucked a bag of hops on top and closed it up. Planning to transfer to the serving keg this weekend, but will let it sit in there at room temp for another week to finish up, got no room in the fridge yet anyway.

Anyone tried this? I dont want to open the fermenter at all if possible.


----------



## Mall

I have been transferring using CO2 from the 50L fermenter (after cold crashing for 3-4 days) into a corny keg. I let that sit at room temp for a day or two then transfer to my serving keg that has a bag of hops suspended under the lid.

I leave that for 4-5 days, open the lid and remove the hops, purge with CO2 and put into kegerator. The last brew I did was a ZombieDust clone with 50g dry hopped Citra, best beer I have ever produced.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Lionman said:


> I put a pacific ale on on the weekend, decided to experiment with dry hopping from pitch.
> 
> I racked the wort from the cube to the keg, pitched my starter, oxygenated, chucked a bag of hops on top and closed it up. Planning to transfer to the serving keg this weekend, but will let it sit in there at room temp for another week to finish up, got no room in the fridge yet anyway.
> 
> Anyone tried this? I dont want to open the fermenter at all if possible.



I dry hopped a few times from when I pitched.

No real issues if it's kept cold after the ferment and drunk quickly I don't think. Never really went grassy. Sounds like you're going to transfer off anyway so the contact is not really that prolonged.


----------



## pirateagenda

Lionman said:


> I put a pacific ale on on the weekend, decided to experiment with dry hopping from pitch.
> 
> I racked the wort from the cube to the keg, pitched my starter, oxygenated, chucked a bag of hops on top and closed it up. Planning to transfer to the serving keg this weekend, but will let it sit in there at room temp for another week to finish up, got no room in the fridge yet anyway.
> 
> Anyone tried this? I dont want to open the fermenter at all if possible.



my last brew was a pacific ale with dry hops added at same time as pitching yeast. came out delicious.


----------



## Mardoo

malt junkie said:


> Has anyone use a secondard kegmenter (or pressure fermenter) with hops in purged and then transfered under pressure for dry hop. Opening and creating that much mess seems like way more work than rinsing another vessel



All the time. It's great for minimising aroma loss, and the lack of O2 contact helps lengthen shelf life.


----------



## RobB

Instead of attaching the spunding valve to the kegmenter, could you vent the kegmenter via the keg you will eventually rack to and attach the valve to the receiving keg? That way the receiving keg would be purged and under the same pressure as the kegmenter. You would also have a purged line through which to transfer.

Crazy enough to work, or just plain crazy?


----------



## Danscraftbeer

Not crazy RobB. Its thinking efficiency with higher standards. I have two spunding valves and they get used a lot in my progress of pressure fermenting.
I brew 2 keg brews often. I fill one serving keg with sanitizer then co2 purge it to the next serving keg. Then purge that into a handy cylindrical esky to have sanitizer on tap. Totally sanitizing, purging the serving kegs with co2 before pressure filling with your precious beer.
Being more technical without over spending on equipment replicating professional techniques.


----------



## Danscraftbeer

RobB said:


> Instead of attaching the spunding valve to the kegmenter, could you vent the kegmenter via the keg you will eventually rack to and attach the valve to the receiving keg? That way the receiving keg would be purged and under the same pressure as the kegmenter. You would also have a purged line through which to transfer.
> 
> Crazy enough to work, or just plain crazy?


I would have to drill a hole through the side of my fermentation fridge for a gas line to the serving keg for me to do this but its a used method in pro breweries as far as I know. 
Its efficiency plus why not have your co2 tainted with the very beer your making meaning its like non lost flavor.


----------



## Mardoo

Yeah, as long as you're not blowing off through the gas post, it's a great idea. Plus the receiving keg will already smell like the beer


----------



## Mardoo

BTW, I realised I haven't given a final report back on these lovely Pure Screen Filters:






They're the ducks nuts. They keep yeast clumps and hop material from coming out the dip tube of your fermenting keg. When I am using them, I have not had an issue with transferring one. Single. Time. HOWEVER, they're sized for racetrack kegs dip tubes and corny keg dip tubes. I haven't tried them on 50-55L keg dip tubes, but I'm assuming they don't fit, as I know the 50-55 dip tubes are bigger. They fit the racetrack keg dip tubes perfectly, so my beloved 40L Corny fermenters are all set.

I do, however, have a couple 19L cornies for small ferments. The pure screen filters will fit those, but you'll need to crimp them on to get them to stay on. I crimp them to the dip tube, take them off, insert the dip tube just enough (ask her how much that is), slip the pure screen filter on to the dip tube, and insert the dip tube the rest of the way into the keg.

They have been working great for me, and as a test, I just now tried to transfer from a corny in which I had fermented and dry hopped, but had no filter on the dip tube, just to be sure. No. Effin'. Way. Headaches! Out post was clogged with hop matter in all of 1/30th of a second. Once I cleaned out the out post and put a pure screen filter on, all the beer transferred in one go.

I highly recommend these little suckers for those fermenting in racetracks and cornys. It means you can ferment and dry hop in the same keg with zero transfer issues. They won't keep hop and yeast haze out, but I am SO happy I gave these a go.

I get them from Clever Brewing; zero affiliation.


----------



## Gloveski

well my kegmenters turned up, now time to build up some yeast so I can get brewing in these bad boys .
Starting off with a few lagers .
Going forward still not sure of the best way to dry hop my ales . Not real keen on opening up mid fermentation to drop some hops in if I am going to get a gusher.
Thinking I might pressure transfer into a keg with either free hops or bagged hops for a few days and then transfer again to a serving keg with biofine to clear up.
I will have to experiment with this as might get the same results by just dry hopping in the keg and then removing once at desired taste level.
Got a couple of floatball set ups from keg king so hopefully that will minimise transfering any yeast .
Thinking of setting spunding valve to about 5 psi for a few days and then to between 15 to 20 psi to get beer close to fully carbed once chilled and transferred . Seems there is a few different techniques more interested in what would be the optimum for yeast health .
Anyway love new toys ................now on the look out for a lagering fridge it just never ends lol


----------



## pcqypcqy

Gloveski said:


> well my kegmenters turned up, now time to build up some yeast so I can get brewing in these bad boys .
> Starting off with a few lagers .
> Going forward still not sure of the best way to dry hop my ales . Not real keen on opening up mid fermentation to drop some hops in if I am going to get a gusher.
> Thinking I might pressure transfer into a keg with either free hops or bagged hops for a few days and then transfer again to a serving keg with biofine to clear up.
> I will have to experiment with this as might get the same results by just dry hopping in the keg and then removing once at desired taste level.
> Got a couple of floatball set ups from keg king so hopefully that will minimise transfering any yeast .
> Thinking of setting spunding valve to about 5 psi for a few days and then to between 15 to 20 psi to get beer close to fully carbed once chilled and transferred . Seems there is a few different techniques more interested in what would be the optimum for yeast health .
> Anyway love new toys ................now on the look out for a lagering fridge it just never ends lol



I haven't had gushing issues dry hopping 40 litre batches with a shit tonne of dry hop. I usually keep the primary ferment around the 10 to 15 psi range. Maybe if the pressure went round past 25psi and there was lots more dissolved CO2 in there you might have an issue. I usually dry hop in a sanitised stocking, with a stainless steel part in there to weight it down and keep it submerged.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Mardoo said:


> BTW, I realised I haven't given a final report back on these lovely Pure Screen Filters:
> 
> 
> I highly recommend these little suckers for those fermenting in racetracks and cornys. It means you can ferment and dry hop in the same keg with zero transfer issues. They won't keep hop and yeast haze out, but I am SO happy I gave these a go.
> 
> I get them from Clever Brewing; zero affiliation.



Have you shorterned your dip tube at all when using these filters?


----------



## Gloveski

pcqypcqy said:


> I haven't had gushing issues dry hopping 40 litre batches with a shit tonne of dry hop. I usually keep the primary ferment around the 10 to 15 psi range. Maybe if the pressure went round past 25psi and there was lots more dissolved CO2 in there you might have an issue. I usually dry hop in a sanitised stocking, with a stainless steel part in there to weight it down and keep it submerged.



Might try this approach I have two 26 litte kegmenters and will make roughly 21 litre batches so should be able to get the hops in without it being a gusher if I keep pressure to between 10 to 15 psi. Are you letting your hops in the stocking sink to the bottom or suspending with something like floss? Great info mate


----------



## Mardoo

pcqypcqy said:


> Have you shorterned your dip tube at all when using these filters?



One fermenter yes, one no. I have yet to identify a major difference.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Mardoo said:


> One fermenter yes, one no. I have yet to identify a major difference.



This might be a winner. I've found even solid yeast cakes can give me issues on the transfer, but I want to keep my options open for large or small batches and try to get as much beer off the cake each time.

I've already cut 20mm off mine, which works OK for a 5 gallon batch. I was going to cut more to make easier transfers on the larger batches.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Gloveski said:


> Might try this approach I have two 26 litte kegmenters and will make roughly 21 litre batches so should be able to get the hops in without it being a gusher if I keep pressure to between 10 to 15 psi. Are you letting your hops in the stocking sink to the bottom or suspending with something like floss? Great info mate



No floss - I find that they will float on their own, but like an iceberg some portion will be out of the beer which seems inefficient to me. 

So I throw an unused stainless disconnect or keg part (depending on what I have around) in the stocking with the hops to submerge it some. I'd say they're still floating after I do this.


----------



## Gloveski

Haven't even used mine yet and Im alreay thinking of a mod. A conical set up to dump trub and capture yeast would be awesome . Something simular to blichmann's cornical but I wouldn't be interested in turning it into a keg .


----------



## pcqypcqy

Gloveski said:


> Haven't even used mine yet and Im alreay thinking of a mod. A conical set up to dump trub and capture yeast would be awesome . Something simular to blichmann's cornical but I wouldn't be interested in turning it into a keg .



How would you attach it? If you're talking a custom welds, would you be better off hacking into some old kegs and attaching some kit pieces?


----------



## rossbaker

Is anyone doing this in 19l corny kegs? This is my plan, let me know what you think.

Brew 34litre batch, no chill in 2 x 17l cubes, ferment these in 19l corny kegs, either with a blow off or a spunding valve or both.

Questions:

Will that be enough headspace? Im planning to use fermcap s.

Can the beer just be served from the same keg once the yeast is transferred out or does it need to be transferred to a serving keg? I have tried this with a small batch wheat beer but I wasn't so fussed about that being bright.

Tring to avoid the cost of buying 2 ibrew kegmenters for a while...


----------



## pirateagenda

don't worry about the cubes. just transfer straight to sanitised corny's then purge the head space with co2. Then when they have cooled and you're ready to pitch, release the c02 and oxygenate the wort and pitch yeast. 

17L should be ok with fermcap in a 19L keg. you could hook them both up to a 3rd keg from both gas posts to tee to liquid in on the 3rd keg to avoid messy overflow and only need 1 spunding valve.


----------



## pcqypcqy

I think the yeast thing is probably not an issue on small scales and quick turn arounds. If you were leaving that beer in there for months and months, it might not be so great. The yeast may also clog up the dip tube.

Apparently there's also an issue with imploding corny's when you cold crash, though if your warm pressure is positive then you should be OK. I think this is an issue when you no-chill into a corny prior to ferment - you will get a decent negative pressure from the cooling of the wort.


----------



## rossbaker

pirateagenda said:


> don't worry about the cubes. just transfer straight to sanitised corny's then purge the head space with co2. Then when they have cooled and you're ready to pitch, release the c02 and oxygenate the wort and pitch yeast.
> 
> 17L should be ok with fermcap in a 19L keg. you could hook them both up to a 3rd keg from both gas posts to tee to liquid in on the 3rd keg to avoid messy overflow and only need 1 spunding valve.


I have thought about that and my only concern is my current lack of an O2 setup. I imagine I would need to pressurise to a fair degree with co2 to counteract the vacuum effect of cooling and avoid the imploding corny pcpypcpy mentioned. Without the ability to directly feed O2 back in would this have a bad effect on fermentation?


----------



## pirateagenda

rossbaker said:


> I have thought about that and my only concern is my current lack of an O2 setup. I imagine I would need to pressurise to a fair degree with co2 to counteract the vacuum effect of cooling and avoid the imploding corny pcpypcpy mentioned. Without the ability to directly feed O2 back in would this have a bad effect on fermentation?



no just bleed off the c02, open the lid and give the wort a good shake up or aerate as you normally would.


----------



## Gloveski

pcqypcqy said:


> How would you attach it? If you're talking a custom welds, would you be better off hacking into some old kegs and attaching some kit pieces?


Yeah not really sure I'll leave it a while yet and look more into it down the track


----------



## Maximus Humulus Lupulus

Okay, this is my first post on this esteemed forum, and being based in England this is the furthest south I’ve ever posted, so be gentle with me!

I’ve been having great fun fermenting under pressure with the Fermentasaurus, which has only been available in the UK for a few months. (I like it so much I bought two.)

I’m on my fourth brew (a Galaxy/Citra IPA), and to date have been fermenting at 10-12psi, which I find works well (especially as that’s the serving pressure I use in my kegs).

Being a newbie to fermenting under pressure, my reason for posting here concerns dry hopping under pressure.

I’m not a big fan of using the collection vessel to introduce hops, as I don’t like the idea of oxygen bubbling up through my beer, and on the Fermentasaurus the collection vessel is too small for the 150g to 500g dry hop quantities I use (the manufacturers recommend only 30g at a time).

Much better to release the pressure, spin the lid off and add dry hops the traditional way, from the top. Screw the lid back on and fully purge with CO2 a few times, repressurise, and job done. Takes mere seconds. That seems to me to be more sensible than having oxygen bubbling up through the beer via the collection vessel method, which I feel is the Achilles heel of all the current crop of conical plastic fermenters.

Where was I....? Ah, yes. Thanks to the this FV’s clear PET construction, I’ve been able to observe what happens to the dry hop (pellets) under pressure, and have noticed that when I repressurise back to 10-12psi immediately after adding the dry hops, the little buggers sink straight to the bottom like stones. If I back off the pressure to around 5 or 6psi, they float back up to the top.

I’m guessing that the greater the internal pressure, the more force is acting on the hops, which pushes them down. I could be wrong. I was crap at science at school. Or I may just have extra heavy hops!

Whatever the reason, I’m thinking that it’s much better to allow your hops to absorb beer and gradually sink to the bottom naturally, dispersing aroma and flavour compounds as they go, than to be packed densely in the bottom of a cone from minute one, where they’re having minimal exposure to the beer.

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this, as I know from reading through this thread that many of you ferment at 15psi and above, as indeed do some commercial breweries. That said, some breweries also have the ability to agitate hops in the FV to reduce dry hopping time and maximise aroma/flavour, so this isn’t an issue for them.

Over to you folks!


----------



## Mardoo

I think it was Vinnie Cilurzo from Russian River, but it may have been Stone, that commissioned a laboratory study about dry hopping and pellet suspension. It showed that pellets that suspend the longest have the highest transmission of hop flavour compounds. Having spent a fair bit of time packing hop pellets in a friend's business, there are major differences in pellet density between processors, from practically glassy through to almost spongy. Unfortunately, hop growers do not always have control over what sort of pellets the processors they use produce. However, I know that some of the new craft hops growers intentionally aim to produce a looser pellet. So in terms of suspension, you're on the right track. Can you bubble CO2 up through the hop and yeast mass from the bottom of the Fermentasaurus? That's the easiest way to re-suspend.

I can't speak to floatiness of pellets under pressure, because I ferment in a stainless pressure vessel. However I do re-suspend daily with a CO2 injection through the liquid out post, and a solid shake. I then re-equalise the pressure to my desired level. I usually ferment at 10psi, as I'm usually not looking for ester suppression.

Generally when I dry hop, rather than open the fermentation vessel I put the hops in another of my SS fermenters, purge, and transfer the beer through the liquid posts. I'm not always organised enough to have one of the fermenters ready, but try to be.


----------



## bradsbrew

If you crush the pellets up they will float for a little while before slowly dropping to the bottom.
I have found that if you drop a fair amount of pressure through the prv, it will stir what is sitting low and it rises to the top and helps to suspend until it settles again or it is repressurised.


----------



## Lionman

rossbaker said:


> Is anyone doing this in 19l corny kegs? This is my plan, let me know what you think.
> 
> Brew 34litre batch, no chill in 2 x 17l cubes, ferment these in 19l corny kegs, either with a blow off or a spunding valve or both.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> Will that be enough headspace? Im planning to use fermcap s.
> 
> Can the beer just be served from the same keg once the yeast is transferred out or does it need to be transferred to a serving keg? I have tried this with a small batch wheat beer but I wasn't so fussed about that being bright.
> 
> Tring to avoid the cost of buying 2 ibrew kegmenters for a while...



I ferment in 19L kegs filled to the top. I connect a line from the gas post (I cut the dip tube down so it doesn't protrude into the keg) to the liquid post of a mini keg and attach the spunding valve to the gas post of the mini keg. I have done quite a few batches like this and most I lose in blow off is a few hundred mls. When I transfer to the serving keg it pretty much fills it up. Beer comes out of the pressure relief valve at the same tim the fermenter starts suckking gas. I put a tee on the blow off so i can have two kegs fermenting into one blow off.

The kegs I ferment in are not cornies though, they are chinese kegs I picked up cheapish and I think they hold a little more than a cornie.

I don't bother with adding chemicals to beer. Water+Grain+Hops+Yeast.


----------



## Lionman

Maximus Humulus Lupulus said:


> I’m guessing that the greater the internal pressure, the more force is acting on the hops, which pushes them down. I could be wrong. I was crap at science at school. Or I may just have extra heavy hops!



I'm not sure pressure would have much impact on buoyancy of hops. Buoyancy has to do with the difference in volumetric mass density between the liquid and the object that is floating. The volumetric mass density of beer and hops won't change under CO2 pressure, or at least very little, and not enough to have a significant impact. The amount the hops are compressed prior to putting them in the fermenter will have a much bigger impact as while co2 can not compress hops (increase their volumetric mass density), a hop pelletising machine can.

It may even have the opposite and make hops more buoyant because as you push CO2 into solution you are actually making the beer more dense. it is taking up the same volume but you are adding the mass of the co2 to that volume making it more dense. I'm not sure the hop matter would absorb much CO2 being a solid? Maybe hop oils absorb co2 Any affect either way is likely to be negligible.


----------



## bradsbrew

Just went out and took a video of a brew i pitched yesterday.


----------



## Mr B

Perhaps the pressure compresses any air in the pellets enough to make them sink


----------



## Danscraftbeer

I think I'm glad I have a Steal fermenter. If I had one of those Fermentsauruses I'd get captured to who knows how many hours watching it.


----------



## Gloveski

Mardoo said:


> I think it was Vinnie Cilurzo from Russian River, but it may have been Stone, that commissioned a laboratory study about dry hopping and pellet suspension. It showed that pellets that suspend the longest have the highest transmission of hop flavour compounds. Having spent a fair bit of time packing hop pellets in a friend's business, there are major differences in pellet density between processors, from practically glassy through to almost spongy. Unfortunately, hop growers do not always have control over what sort of pellets the processors they use produce. However, I know that some of the new craft hops growers intentionally aim to produce a looser pellet. So in terms of suspension, you're on the right track. Can you bubble CO2 up through the hop and yeast mass from the bottom of the Fermentasaurus? That's the easiest way to re-suspend.
> 
> I can't speak to floatiness of pellets under pressure, because I ferment in a stainless pressure vessel. However I do re-suspend daily with a CO2 injection through the liquid out post, and a solid shake. I then re-equalise the pressure to my desired level. I usually ferment at 10psi, as I'm usually not looking for ester suppression.
> 
> Generally when I dry hop, rather than open the fermentation vessel I put the hops in another of my SS fermenters, purge, and transfer the beer through the liquid posts. I'm not always organised enough to have one of the fermenters ready, but try to be.



When you dry hop mate and transfer are you then using this as your serving keg ? If you transfer again are you loosing any aroma from the spunding valve venting during transfer on the receiving keg


----------



## Gloveski

The keg king float balls worked a treat in my kegmenters . all that was left was a nice yeast cake


----------



## Crusty

I've posted some results of my first pressure ferment over in the spunding valve thread.
I am now drinking, directly from the fermenter, a St.Loius Lager that was brewed 12 days ago & now on day 3 of a 2deg Lagering stint. I was initially looking to do a 3 week Lager but this beer is fantastic, it's bloody liquid gold. You would swear it's been Lagering for weeks. The natural carbonation has put a real commercial spin on this beer & I'm really stoked I brewed 45L of it. I was initially going to transfer to a serving keg but I'm not going to bother. It needs a week or so at Lagering temps to clear but that aside, it's an absolute cracker.


----------



## Mardoo

Gloveski said:


> When you dry hop mate and transfer are you then using this as your serving keg ? If you transfer again are you loosing any aroma from the spunding valve venting during transfer on the receiving keg


No, I always transfer off the dry hop to a serving keg to allow any fine particulate to settle out.

I transfer without the spunding valve on either the source or the receiving keg. I'm attaching my gas bottle to the source keg gas in, and then connect the liquid posts. As the receiving keg is vented to drop the pressure below the source keg, there is some aroma that comes out, but it's pretty minimal. Frankly, I think the amount of aroma that could be lost by doing this would be undetectable by anyone drinking the beer, but then, I haven't done any sort of side-by-side comparison. When I'm trying hard to keep all the hoppy goodness in a beer, it's usually very, very hoppy, so would guess it has a bit of aroma to spare.

Does that answer your question?

Interesting question. I spent last night geeking hard about vegetal hop flavours and roast malts, so my brain is a bit fried. Hope that answer helps.


----------



## Gloveski

Mardoo said:


> No, I always transfer off the dry hop to a serving keg to allow any fine particulate to settle out.
> 
> I transfer without the spunding valve on either the source or the receiving keg. I'm attaching my gas bottle to the source keg gas in, and then connect the liquid posts. As the receiving keg is vented to drop the pressure below the source keg, there is some aroma that comes out, but it's pretty minimal. Frankly, I think the amount of aroma that could be lost by doing this would be undetectable by anyone drinking the beer, but then, I haven't done any sort of side-by-side comparison. When I'm trying hard to keep all the hoppy goodness in a beer, it's usually very, very hoppy, so would guess it has a bit of aroma to spare.
> 
> Does that answer your question?
> 
> Interesting question. I spent last night geeking hard about vegetal hop flavours and roast malts, so my brain is a bit fried. Hope that answer helps.



Awesome mate cheers for this , my next brew will be dry hopping so just looking at different techniques to try


----------



## manticle

Lionman said:


> I ferment in 19L kegs filled to the top. I connect a line from the gas post (I cut the dip tube down so it doesn't protrude into the keg) to the liquid post of a mini keg and attach the spunding valve to the gas post of the mini keg. I have done quite a few batches like this and most I lose in blow off is a few hundred mls. When I transfer to the serving keg it pretty much fills it up. Beer comes out of the pressure relief valve at the same tim the fermenter starts suckking gas. I put a tee on the blow off so i can have two kegs fermenting into one blow off.
> 
> The kegs I ferment in are not cornies though, they are chinese kegs I picked up cheapish and I think they hold a little more than a cornie.
> 
> I don't bother with adding chemicals to beer. Water+Grain+Hops+Yeast.



H2O + C12H22O11+ 3,4-Dihydroxy-5-(3-methylbut- 2-enyl)-2-(3-methyl-1-oxobutyl)-4-(4- methyl-1-oxopent-3-enyl)-1- cyclopent-2-enone+ Saccharomyces cerevisae in order to produce C2H5OH and various byproducts and waste material including polypeptides and saccharides.

I love chemicals in my beer.


----------



## mtb

manticle said:


> H2O + C12H22O11+ 3,4-Dihydroxy-5-(3-methylbut- 2-enyl)-2-(3-methyl-1-oxobutyl)-4-(4- methyl-1-oxopent-3-enyl)-1- cyclopent-2-enone+ Saccharomyces cerevisae in order to produce C2H5OH and various byproducts and waste material including polypeptides and saccharides.
> 
> I love chemicals in my beer.


Showoff.


----------



## manticle

To be honest, most of it was google + Ctrl+v.

Principle remains.

To be slightly on topic, this thread has made me reconsider fermenting in a corny (something I tried a few years ago - nc, ferment, dispense from single vessel). With a few alterations to my original plan I reckon I could make it work.


----------



## RobB

manticle said:


> To be honest, most of it was google + Ctrl+v.
> 
> Principle remains.
> 
> To be slightly on topic, this thread has made me reconsider fermenting in a corny (something I tried a few years ago - nc, ferment, dispense from single vessel). With a few alterations to my original plan I reckon I could make it work.



I was just thinking the same thing. I brew smaller batches than most people and serve from 12 litre kegs, so for me a normal cornie keg would be a kegmenter with loads of head space. I typically brew under 6% abv and empty a keg within about 5 weeks, so I'm wondering if I could just use a floating dip tube and serve straight out of the kegmenter. The yeast would be 8 weeks old by the time I poured the last glass (2 weeks fermenting, 1 week crashing/settling and 5 weeks serving) - do you think I would get away with it?


----------



## RobB

duplicate post deleted


----------



## manticle

My original plan relied on being able to suck the bulk of primary yeast out via dip tube when ready. The whole thing working is contingent on that.


----------



## Gloveski

manticle said:


> My original plan relied on being able to suck the bulk of primary yeast out via dip tube when ready. The whole thing working is contingent on that.



Is that so you can harvest the yeast mate ?


----------



## Gloveski

RobB said:


> I was just thinking the same thing. I brew smaller batches than most people and serve from 12 litre kegs, so for me a normal cornie keg would be a kegmenter with loads of head space. I typically brew under 6% abv and empty a keg within about 5 weeks, so I'm wondering if I could just use a floating dip tube and serve straight out of the kegmenter. The yeast would be 8 weeks old by the time I poured the last glass (2 weeks fermenting, 1 week crashing/settling and 5 weeks serving) - do you think I would get away with it?



I done two pressure transfers using the keg king floating dip tubes and they worked great , left me basically with just the cake . So should be fine to use as a serving option aswell


----------



## manticle

No. I don't like keeping beer on primary for too long, certainly not after ferment has finished and I'm dispensing. Pro of nc into corny and ferment/dispense from same is reduction of transfer, (oxygen, number of vessels, etc) but exposure to trub has the potential to negate those benefits.


----------



## Maximus Humulus Lupulus

Mardoo said:


> I think it was Vinnie Cilurzo from Russian River, but it may have been Stone, that commissioned a laboratory study about dry hopping and pellet suspension. It showed that pellets that suspend the longest have the highest transmission of hop flavour compounds. Having spent a fair bit of time packing hop pellets in a friend's business, there are major differences in pellet density between processors, from practically glassy through to almost spongy. Unfortunately, hop growers do not always have control over what sort of pellets the processors they use produce. However, I know that some of the new craft hops growers intentionally aim to produce a looser pellet. So in terms of suspension, you're on the right track. Can you bubble CO2 up through the hop and yeast mass from the bottom of the Fermentasaurus? That's the easiest way to re-suspend.
> 
> I can't speak to floatiness of pellets under pressure, because I ferment in a stainless pressure vessel. However I do re-suspend daily with a CO2 injection through the liquid out post, and a solid shake. I then re-equalise the pressure to my desired level. I usually ferment at 10psi, as I'm usually not looking for ester suppression.
> 
> Generally when I dry hop, rather than open the fermentation vessel I put the hops in another of my SS fermenters, purge, and transfer the beer through the liquid posts. I'm not always organised enough to have one of the fermenters ready, but try to be.



First of all, thanks for the suggestion about bubbling CO2 up from the bottom. I have rigged up a Heath Robinson contraption that allows me to do this, and having been put together by a man with the DIY skills of a bi-valve mollusc, I have to say it works surprisingly well. However, it did nothing to resuspend the hops, which instantly started to sink back to the bottom once bubbling ceased. (But at least they will have had more contact time as a result.)

Further investigation reveals that, as you allude to above, pellet density is indeed the culprit here. Since my post on 24.10.17 above I've dry-hopped two more brews, using T90 pellets from two different suppliers. In one brew, the Mosaic pellets were floaty as **** and took over three days to sink, whereas the Cascade pellets added to the other brew were suicidal little shits and immediately sank like stones. In both instances the pressure was 10-12psi. 

This clip shows how pellets of different densities behave, and illustrates the phenomenon perfectly. All I need to do now is find out how I can source medium density pellets!


----------



## Mardoo

I believe the Crosby Farms ones are intentionally a bit less dense. HoweverI have yet to get some, so that’s just hearsay ATM. They’re available from a few places in OZ. I know Beerco stocks them, and I know I’ve seen them elsewhere, but can’t remember where else.


----------



## MHB

I wouldn't be too worried about the pellet density, in fact the tighter the better for mine (reduces oxygen penetration). The only thing that holds pellets together is the naturally occurring rosins and waxes in the hops, hop cones are ground to powder and then put through an extruder. The higher the pressure and the higher the amount of natural binders the tighter the pellets.
Shure the vid above looks convincing, but come back in half an hour and I strongly suspect you would be hard presses to tell the difference. Just go for the best hops you can get, look after them and enjoy.
Mark


----------



## droid

My first pressure ferment, thought bugger it might as well transfer a bit to a PET and cool down for a taste


----------



## droid

Sorry if it has been covered, does a warm pressure ferment mean that you can do a closed warm transfer to a bottle as above and then chill without issues? It would be nice to have a few kegs that are at cellar temp and carbed, allowing the odd bottle to be filled and chilled whenever as opposed to a whole keg having to be chilled..


----------



## Danscraftbeer

droid said:


> Sorry if it has been covered, does a warm pressure ferment mean that you can do a closed warm transfer to a bottle as above and then chill without issues? It would be nice to have a few kegs that are at cellar temp and carbed, allowing the odd bottle to be filled and chilled whenever as opposed to a whole keg having to be chilled..


Mini kegs are handy for that. Never tried to transfer into bottle when warm but i do transfer from kegmenter to serving keg when still warm and the trick is at higher pressure than the beer finished at to prevent foaming.
Eg my Tooths Pale Ale finished at 22psi so I set the co2 bottle at 30psi or higher is faster etc and the spunding valve on the receiving keg at ~at least 22psi. Fill by weight.


----------



## Maheel

what temps are you peeps fermenting ales at under pressure ? 

i am still using +-17

droid do u have a 19'c shed...?


----------



## droid

Maheel said:


> what temps are you peeps fermenting ales at under pressure ?
> 
> i am still using +-17
> 
> droid do u have a 19'c shed...?



I'm doing 20 - it's South Eastern Gippsland, the temp in the shed hasn't gone over 20 for the last week, plus they are sitting on cold concrete. They both have heater belts as the drop in temp is the only concern here...at the mo


----------



## rossbaker

manticle said:


> No. I don't like keeping beer on primary for too long, certainly not after ferment has finished and I'm dispensing. Pro of nc into corny and ferment/dispense from same is reduction of transfer, (oxygen, number of vessels, etc) but exposure to trub has the potential to negate those benefits.



Good stuff manticle. It was your attempt at nc and fermenting in a corny, and the thread that ensued that sent me down this path.


----------



## manticle

My brain cogs have started moving again.


----------



## Mardoo

Oh shit...


----------



## Digga

So I've just put 40L into a 45L keg, I don't yet have a spudding valve but am in the process of ordering one from amazon. I've rigged up a blow off tube attached to a gas disconnect.
Question is I'm going to dry hop with around 4 gravity points left before terminal. If I didn't reconnect the gas disconnect blow off tube would the pressure build too much (>20psi)?
What do you experienced pressure fermenters think would be the optimal stage for disconnection?
I'm fermenting an ale with Nottingham at 18c.

Thanks a bunch.


----------



## Danscraftbeer

Digga said:


> So I've just put 40L into a 45L keg, I don't yet have a spudding valve but am in the process of ordering one from amazon. I've rigged up a blow off tube attached to a gas disconnect.
> Question is I'm going to dry hop with around 4 gravity points left before terminal. If I didn't reconnect the gas disconnect blow off tube would the pressure build too much (>20psi)?
> What do you experienced pressure fermenters think would be the optimal stage for disconnection?
> I'm fermenting an ale with Nottingham at 18c.
> 
> Thanks a bunch.


I'd take a guess at disconnect at 1 point gravity but you really need a spunding valve to be sure etc. 4 points too much for 40lt. I've found even if it seems you reach final gravity it can still increase in pressure.


----------



## Digga

Thanks Dan, might just ferment out using the blowoff then pump 20 or so PSI in there and cold crash, this should negate negative pressure whilst chilling. looking into the spunding valves now and the amazon option is out the question with $70 in the cart and $45 in shipping!! that's for 2 setups...


----------



## Danscraftbeer

The Keg King ones work fine for me. $30 each I think. Plus higher rating gauges $7 each.


----------



## Digga

Think I'll just order a KK one for the time being then upgrade as required. I have seen others on here with success with them as well.

Thanks mate!


----------



## Digga

Danscraftbeer said:


> The Keg King ones work fine for me. $30 each I think. Plus higher rating gauges $7 each.


Dan

Can't seem to find the higher rated gauge on the website? Do you have a link as I'm just about to send the oder off.

I'll buy something off ebay if they don't have it.

Thanks


----------



## Danscraftbeer

No link sorry. I go to their local store. Try email or phone them tomorrow if you can wait.


----------



## Coldspace

Digga said:


> Dan
> 
> Can't seem to find the higher rated gauge on the website? Do you have a link as I'm just about to send the oder off.
> 
> I'll buy something off ebay if they don't have it.
> 
> Thanks


You will need to get the kk low pressure gauge rated upto 80-100 psi. They are $9.95 last time I bought one.
Put into kk search bar, "pressure gauge" it should show up or call them.
Some thread seal tape and spanner and your away.

Cheers


----------



## Dan Pratt

Dan Pratt said:


> Im now onto my 4th beer of pressure fermentation. Since the first beer at 23c and 15psi I have toned it back to the std temp of 18c and around 10-11psi.
> 
> I will get a much better read of the suppression of the esters when i do my Fake Blonde using W34/70 lager yeast @ 15c. I have done 2 previous batches without pressure in the old coopers FV and they both had estery aroma combined with the dry hop so I will get a real tell sign with that beer for the true effects of the pressure ferment.



Some feedback from this post above:

Ive done over a dozen pressure fermented beers now and have moved the PSi to 5-7. Reason is I made an IPA with 007 at 13psi and the the beer had an infected flavour and I put it to the pressure ( yeast stress ), so I've taken the once bitten twice shy with the higher pressure and since no issues with lower pressure, because its still pressure.

Anyway to report on the recent beer - fake blonde 3 with W34/70 @ 15c and 7psi....not an ester to be smelt!! Just clean aromatic hops from the dry hopping


----------



## wobbly

Horses for courses I guess but I (and others) ferment in our WW's starting with the VPRV (Spunding valve) set to control at 1.5bar (21psi) and wort temperature at 23C and allow the pressure to build up over the first 24hrs and under these conditions a 1040 Ale beer using US-05 or Nottingham will have fully fermented out in 4 days then crash chill and clarify. For lagers again pitch yeast at around 23C with spunding vale set to control at 1.5bar and set temperature controller to bring the wort down to 15C over the first few hours and hold at that temperature for the first 3 days and then raise temperature setting to 18C for another three days by which time a 1040 lager using W34/70 or S-04 will have fully fermented in the 6 days and then crash chill and clarify. For wort at higher OG's up to say 1055/60 you may need to add 1 day to the above times. 

Just my 2c worth of input into this subject

Wobbly


----------



## Maximus Humulus Lupulus

MHB said:


> I wouldn't be too worried about the pellet density, in fact the tighter the better for mine (reduces oxygen penetration). The only thing that holds pellets together is the naturally occurring rosins and waxes in the hops, hop cones are ground to powder and then put through an extruder. The higher the pressure and the higher the amount of natural binders the tighter the pellets.
> Shure the vid above looks convincing, but come back in half an hour and I strongly suspect you would be hard presses to tell the difference. Just go for the best hops you can get, look after them and enjoy.
> Mark



I wish that was the case, MHB, but the high density pellets (in this instance, Cascade) sank immediately to the bottom of FV 1 and remained there for the duration fo the dry hop (3-4 days). Even rousing them by bubbling CO2 up from the bottom of the FV didn't work. They just sank straight back to the bottom, where, in my opinion, their efficacy in terms of disseminating aroma and flavour compounds is compromised to the point of insignificance. Especially in a conical.

The lower density pellets added to FV 2 (in this instance, Mosaic) floated on the top and took over three days to sink to the bottom. 

I've still got a kilo of the high density pellets left so will do my best to post a video next time I use them (though in truth I'd rather chuck the buggers. Or I might try whazzing them through a blender to break them up a bit.)


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Digga said:


> Question is I'm going to dry hop with around 4 gravity points left before terminal. If I didn't reconnect the gas disconnect blow off tube would the pressure build too much (>20psi)?
> 
> I'm fermenting an ale with Nottingham at 18c.
> 
> Thanks a bunch.



At 18 oC an extra 10.25 g/l sugar (equivalent to your stated gravity difference) will result in about 260 kPa pressure, which is about 38 PSI. That assumes you reached equilibrium when depressured for dry hopping, by no means assured.


----------



## Lionman

manticle said:


> H2O + C12H22O11+ 3,4-Dihydroxy-5-(3-methylbut- 2-enyl)-2-(3-methyl-1-oxobutyl)-4-(4- methyl-1-oxopent-3-enyl)-1- cyclopent-2-enone+ Saccharomyces cerevisae in order to produce C2H5OH and various byproducts and waste material including polypeptides and saccharides.
> 
> I love chemicals in my beer.



Technically those chemicals ARE the beer, not added to it.


----------



## Lionman

Could I potentially swap the gauges between my keg keng reg and spunding valve? Are they the same thread?

The reg has a too high pressure gauge considering I only use it at about 12c which is a fraction of its travel and its hard to get it accurate at all.


----------



## Digga

It's been mentioned in another thread that they are the same I'll be doing the same with mine when it arrives. Hopefully before the weekend as I have a pressure fermenter that is being less than fully utilized.


----------



## manticle

Lionman said:


> Technically those chemicals ARE the beer, not added to it.


CO2 if kegging, C12H22O11 if bottling.

Apologies to purists for lack of subscript.

Phone and lazy finger.


----------



## Crusty

Dan Pratt said:


> Some feedback from this post above:
> 
> Ive done over a dozen pressure fermented beers now and have moved the PSi to 5-7. Reason is I made an IPA with 007 at 13psi and the the beer had an infected flavour and I put it to the pressure ( yeast stress ), so I've taken the once bitten twice shy with the higher pressure and since no issues with lower pressure, because its still pressure.
> 
> Anyway to report on the recent beer - fake blonde 3 with W34/70 @ 15c and 7psi....not an ester to be smelt!! Just clean aromatic hops from the dry hopping



It's seems odd that you got an infected flavour from 13psi. The yeast should be under no additional stress at that psi setting causing off flavours but it's the result you got, thanks for letting us know. I fermented my Lager at 12psi with no off flavours whatsoever.
I'm drinking from the fermenter & I never use any finings like gelatine or biofine but next time I will clarify in the fermenter then transfer to a serving keg. I wouldn't recommend just cold crashing to clear your beer as I normally do if fermenting under pressure & naturally carbonating. My Lager has cleared pretty well but it won't be as clear as I normally get it due to the pressure ferment & lack of finings.


----------



## Coldspace

I've done countless pressured brews now, 3 x 50 tr kegmenters running here in temp controlled chesties, ales, stouts , irish reds, plus heaps of lagers, all at 12-15 psi primary and all turned out great.no yeast stress or such or off-track esters etc, Better than my stainless ambient fermeters. Never had a bad batch from ferment issues, just a few brews that were abit too bitter due to my over doing hops etc in pushing fancy IPAs out, but generally all turn out super great , and I will never go back to normal ambient pressure ferments.

I brew, under pressure, primary done, let pressure rise to the pre-determined level depending on style, hold for 2 days to confirm ferments complete, then pressure inject biofine ( used to use dissolved gelatine ) into kegmenter, rock abit, then CC to 0 degress for 1 week minimum, lagers 2 weeks then pressure transfer the remaining liquid into cornies and mini 5 ltrs if ive drunk too much out of the kegmenters during the clarifying period,

pictured, 1st and second picture, nice hoppy fresh flower chinook IPA, CC one week and these have been in my cornies one week, lovley little carb bubbles, really lets the hops and malt flavours shine through, just cant buy packaged beer this tasty. yummo

next 2 pictures are my Amarillo hopped ale first photo shows the true colour, second is holding upto the light, its a real favourite around here, done this brew for years, everyone loves it but since ive been doing it under pressure ferments everyone agrees its just nicer, more of a professional touch to it. Same , CC one week with biofine, 1 week in corny.

Last photo , is my new Nelson/cascade Ale just getting ready for summer, its still in kegementer, biofined, and has been under CC at 0 for 2 days now, still cloudy but tasty as ****, will be an excellent summer smasher in 2 weeks once transferred to my keezer. But had a few cloudy schooners sarvo to test it and that's what I love about this fermentation technique , just makes it so much fun part of the hobby, plus the added benefits etc. dip tube shortened in the kegmenter by 20 mm, first pour pulls abit of crap but usually good from then on, gets clearer as the week goes on, plus flavours start to meld as the clarifying continues and yeast drop out. But generally it's good from 2-3 days at cc onwards from primary ferments.

Into lagers again next few brews, they go a lot clearer as well, on par with when I used to do lagers and filter them. This is so much easier and less risk of oxidation .
These hoppy ales are great, and I do agree, the biofine seems to leave the flavours abit more intact than gelatine.
The lagers, I have only used gelatine last years batches under pressure ferments and all turned out great after 2 weeks, and then 1 week in corny, so I am keen to try lagers in the coming weeks with biofine .

Did a great dobblebock and Irish red over winter and both turned out awesome in the kegmenters , i do employ a blow off system from the gas post kegmenter - to the liquid post of a 9ltr corny then all blow off muck goes into this, then spunding valve onto gas post of 9 ltr corny to vent away, works a treat especially big brews....

I'm in love..... lol, had a few sarvo and excited  
I've got to share my excitement with you lot as the poor family will never understand lol


----------



## Crusty

They do look awesome coldspace.
The finer carbonation certainly puts a commercial feel to the beer, that's for sure.
It's a much faster way to ferment & I'll also be pressure fermenting from now on.
I'm going to do the same as you next time & pressure inject biofine. I got far too lazy & opted to drink from the fermenter without any clarification apart from cold crashing. My Lager's great, just not super clear.


----------



## nosco

How do you pressure inject biofine?


----------



## malt junkie

nosco said:


> How do you pressure inject biofine?


Once in CC your ferm should be around 8-10 psi. Put Biofine in a pet with Carb cap and dip tube hit it with 25psi and connect to ferm. Job done.


----------



## Coldspace

Also mix it with about 200 mls of sanitised water ( pre boiled and cooled)into the PET bottle then inject, easier to do than trying to squirt 20 mls in, plus I recon it would disperse through the kegmenter better.


----------



## mtb

Could you just pull a cup or so of the beer itself into the bottle with biofine, then pump the mixture back into the kegmenter? Saves dicking about with boiling and cooling water.


----------



## bradsbrew

Coldspace said:


> I've done countless pressured brews now, 3 x 50 tr kegmenters running here in temp controlled chesties, ales, stouts , irish reds, plus heaps of lagers, all at 12-15 psi primary and all turned out great.no yeast stress or such or off-track esters etc, Better than my stainless ambient fermeters. Never had a bad batch from ferment issues, just a few brews that were abit too bitter due to my over doing hops etc in pushing fancy IPAs out, but generally all turn out super great , and I will never go back to normal ambient pressure ferments.
> 
> I brew, under pressure, primary done, let pressure rise to the pre-determined level depending on style, hold for 2 days to confirm ferments complete, then pressure inject biofine ( used to use dissolved gelatine ) into kegmenter, rock abit, then CC to 0 degress for 1 week minimum, lagers 2 weeks then pressure transfer the remaining liquid into cornies and mini 5 ltrs if ive drunk too much out of the kegmenters during the clarifying period,
> 
> pictured, 1st and second picture, nice hoppy fresh flower chinook IPA, CC one week and these have been in my cornies one week, lovley little carb bubbles, really lets the hops and malt flavours shine through, just cant buy packaged beer this tasty. yummo
> 
> next 2 pictures are my Amarillo hopped ale first photo shows the true colour, second is holding upto the light, its a real favourite around here, done this brew for years, everyone loves it but since ive been doing it under pressure ferments everyone agrees its just nicer, more of a professional touch to it. Same , CC one week with biofine, 1 week in corny.
> 
> Last photo , is my new Nelson/cascade Ale just getting ready for summer, its still in kegementer, biofined, and has been under CC at 0 for 2 days now, still cloudy but tasty as ****, will be an excellent summer smasher in 2 weeks once transferred to my keezer. But had a few cloudy schooners sarvo to test it and that's what I love about this fermentation technique , just makes it so much fun part of the hobby, plus the added benefits etc. dip tube shortened in the kegmenter by 20 mm, first pour pulls abit of crap but usually good from then on, gets clearer as the week goes on, plus flavours start to meld as the clarifying continues and yeast drop out. But generally it's good from 2-3 days at cc onwards from primary ferments.
> 
> Into lagers again next few brews, they go a lot clearer as well, on par with when I used to do lagers and filter them. This is so much easier and less risk of oxidation .
> These hoppy ales are great, and I do agree, the biofine seems to leave the flavours abit more intact than gelatine.
> The lagers, I have only used gelatine last years batches under pressure ferments and all turned out great after 2 weeks, and then 1 week in corny, so I am keen to try lagers in the coming weeks with biofine .
> 
> Did a great dobblebock and Irish red over winter and both turned out awesome in the kegmenters , i do employ a blow off system from the gas post kegmenter - to the liquid post of a 9ltr corny then all blow off muck goes into this, then spunding valve onto gas post of 9 ltr corny to vent away, works a treat especially big brews....
> 
> I'm in love..... lol, had a few sarvo and excited
> I've got to share my excitement with you lot as the poor family will never understand lol


Beers look good. But that thumb nail........

It's amazing how quickly we become lazy though. I fermented a beer in my SS non pressurised fermenter a few weeks ago and it sat there a while because it was so much work to take it out of the fridge, attach a hose and send to keg and it wasn't even carbonated yet.....what a drama.
And since i put a tap on the fermenting fridge, well, it's a struggle to keg.


----------



## Crusty

I didn’t transfer to another keg to serve because I don’t have any corny kegs. I ferment in a 50L commercial & transferring to another 50L under pressure requires another coupler. Time to place an order for some kegs I suppose.


----------



## Coldspace

bradsbrew said:


> Beers look good. But that thumb nail........
> 
> It's amazing how quickly we become lazy though. I fermented a beer in my SS non pressurised fermenter a few weeks ago and it sat there a while because it was so much work to take it out of the fridge, attach a hose and send to keg and it wasn't even carbonated yet.....what a drama.
> And since i put a tap on the fermenting fridge, well, it's a struggle to keg.


Ha yes, thumb nail,
My hands cop a battering at work doing electrical and airconditioning, at least I have plenty of beer to sooth the pain lol


----------



## Coldspace

mtb said:


> Could you just pull a cup or so of the beer itself into the bottle with biofine, then pump the mixture back into the kegmenter? Saves dicking about with boiling and cooling water.


Yes you could, but when it's warm and under 26-28 psi it's cranks out fast into a jug and foams totally, which would be a foamy mess to then let settle to add biofine. I purge samples this way to check grav.
But recon 200 mls of cooled boiled water is a lot cleaner. We always have a cup of cooled water sitting in our kettle from the morning coffees here anyway.

You could cc, then biofine , but I think it works better and mixes better into warmer solution then as cc pulls down it help drop the sediments.
That's just my opinion I have no info regarding this ,has been working great for me .

Cheers


----------



## wide eyed and legless

An interesting video I found today, would have to be the heavy duty cubes though,


----------



## Grott

Fairly impressive, missed the reason for the connection on the cap, is this to allow for air or co2 to replaced poured beer?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I wouldn't know Grott have watched a few of this guys videos before, pretty average but I like this idea and will be giving it a go.


----------



## Grott

Thanks WEAL, played the area of the video again, he states it’s an inlet valve for co2 but not sure of connection type but easy enough to do


----------



## wide eyed and legless

It is a little similar to what I do now capturing the co2 for my cask ale, but using the heavy duty cubes as casks I know they can handle the pressure.


----------



## rossbaker

Hi guys, I pitched a decent sized jar of us05 into a corny with 15l of 1040 wort at about 10:30 last night. Still no movement on the pressure guage of the spunding valve. When should I start to worry?

Sorry if this is the pressure fermenter version of a 'my airlock isn't bubbling' question.


----------



## mtb

rossbaker said:


> Hi guys, I pitched a decent sized jar of us05 into a corny with 15l of 1040 wort at about 10:30 last night. Still no movement on the pressure guage of the spunding valve. When should I start to worry?
> 
> Sorry if this is the pressure fermenter version of a 'my airlock isn't bubbling' question.


Kittens in.. the spunding valve?
I suggest the same approach as with a non-bubbling airlock; take hydro samples. If no movement over 24-48hrs then you have a problem.

ed: consider also pressurising the corny a little to see if it holds pressure, you may have a lid not seated properly.


----------



## rossbaker

Thanks MKB. Curiosity got the better of me and I just pulled the prv and heard a little hiss so hopefully there is some movement. I'm also using a keg King spunding valve with a swapped out guage that goes up to 50psi from Bunnings. I tested it out on another keg and it works but reads a little lower than my regulator. Will try a sample later tonight to see if we have movement.


----------



## dent

It is nice to see a resurgence of this.

I stopped doing the pressure ferments back in the day as cleaning the krausen from the inside of the 50L kegs was a PITA. But lately I've started it up again with slightly modified cornies, as part of my current war against oxidation. At least with those I can fit my arm in there to clean them.

First thing is I replace the spring in the PRV with a much weaker one. This will let the PRV release pressure at around 15 psi, depending on the specific spring. I found two in my Jaycar spring kit that were suitable. This way we don't need a separate spunding valve, the keg itself sorts out the spunding. It also raises the release point a little higher than the gas dip tube, so we can fit a little more in the keg.
















I always trim the dip tubes on my kegs as a matter of course, but for fermenting I take another 10mm from the usual 20mm I remove.

For fermenter duty, I like to boil the keg, as there's lots of places for infections to hide. I fill them about 1/4 full of water, ensuring the PRV is locked OPEN, and boil them sideways on the gas burner. Once there's plenty of steam hissing out the whole thing has gotten hot enough to be decently sanitary.






It makes some interesting patterns on the side of the keg too!






Once the ferment is on the go, the blowoff can make a little mess, depending on the fill height. It's a good idea to clean this off regularly to stop the fruit flies from getting too interested.






Once the ferment is done, replace the PRV with a standard one. It's a good idea to attach the CO2 and have some positive pressure when you're doing the changeover to maintain the nice oxygen free environment. From there, you're good to jam the keg into the serving fridge.


----------



## mtb

That's a lot of effort compared to just getting a kegmenter dent.. is it due to cost? You can fit your arm in a kegmenter like this one and infections find it difficult to hide from warm sodium percarbonate.


----------



## Mardoo

I boil kegs in certain situations, such as when I recently had a wild yeast infection in some yeast I was given, or when I buy a keg that's had beer or wine sitting in it for years (25 in one case ). I use an OTS element, fill the keg with water, and turn the element on and leave it for 90 minutes or so.


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## JB

Just in case there's anyone looking for 50lt kegmenters, I'm off-loading a few:
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/kegmenters-outer-east-melb.97030/#post-1486562


----------



## dent

Well, yeah obviously it is a little more effort - and those kegmenters aren't cheap. Then again if you're happy with the percarbonate, it's not much extra effort at all - change a spring once, and trim a dip tube once. This way I can go straight from fermenting to dispensing while using my existing fleet of 40 or so cornies. 

Plus with the kegmenter I'd have to rack it off into another keg each time, and every method of doing that in a low O2 fashion takes longer than I'd like, and wastes a bunch of water+CO2.


----------



## mtb

The replacement PRV is definitely a good idea. If those springs were predictable & consistent enough I wouldn't even bother with a gauge for my spunding valves.. might look into it actually.


----------



## rossbaker

Ok we have a bit of movement but it is a bit slower than I expected. The keg is now sitting at 5psi and slowly rising. 

2 things I may have done wrong: 
Yeast only had a small amount of time to come up to temp. 
No aeration other than pouring from a height. 

How long does it often take people to get their ales up over the 10psi mark?


----------



## rossbaker

And we are at 10psi and we counting. At what stage of Primary are people dry hopping? Or do we think keg hopping in the receiving keg is the go?


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## mtb

rossbaker said:


> And we are at 10psi and we counting. At what stage of Primary are people dry hopping? Or do we think keg hopping in the receiving keg is the go?


I'm a believer of dry hopping while warm, I think it imparts a far better aroma. To that end I dry hop in the fermenter three days prior to cold crashing - obviously you don't know for sure when you'll start cold crashing, but you can estimate closely enough.


----------



## rossbaker

mtb said:


> I'm a believer of dry hopping while warm, I think it imparts a far better aroma. To that end I dry hop in the fermenter three days prior to cold crashing - obviously you don't know for sure when you'll start cold crashing, but you can estimate closely enough.


Cheers for that. Any issues getting back up to target psi after depressurising and opening up for the dry hop?


----------



## mtb

rossbaker said:


> Cheers for that. Any issues getting back up to target psi after depressurising and opening up for the dry hop?


If you dry hop before you hit FG - say, 1.02 - you should build up enough pressure during the remainder of the fermentation. Maybe 1.025 to be sure, that's when I dry hop.


----------



## Dan Pratt

I transfer to a corny keg from the fermentasaurus to dry hop keeping the beer under pressure during transfer.

when you dry hop into the Primary pressure vessell, just use your CO2 to repressurize the fermented.


----------



## rossbaker

mtb said:


> If you dry hop before you hit FG - say, 1.02 - you should build up enough pressure during the remainder of the fermentation. Maybe 1.025 to be sure, that's when I dry hop.


I've done this and it seems to have worked a treat. Already up to a decent psi again after dry hopping this morning. What psi do you target now in order to get a good carb/pressure level one it is crash chilled?


----------



## mtb

I'll admit, I've never bothered calculating the target pressure required to result in a chilled & carbonated fermenter ready for transferring under pressure. I just leave it at 10PSI and chill/transfer because I leave my kegs under serving pressure for at least two weeks to condition before serving anyway - it carbs properly in that time as well.

It's likely someone in this very thread has discussed that topic already though, go do some diggin'


----------



## husky

Is anyone dry hopping with a few points to go? I have been lately with the theory the yeasties will have time to take up any oxygen that enters the fermenter after de pressurising and opening the lid to add the hops.


----------



## mtb

husky said:


> Is anyone dry hopping with a few points to go? I have been lately with the theory the yeasties will have time to take up any oxygen that enters the fermenter after de pressurising and opening the lid to add the hops.


Four posts ago buddy.


----------



## pirateagenda

after a wort volcano dry hopping 4 days in several batches ago, I have been dry hopping when pitching yeast. Still getting great results with that method.


----------



## razz

Not even at day 5 of my first attempt at this and I can't believe how well the ferment has gone so far and how easy the whole process has been. Ferment has hit final gravity after 96 hours and I'm giving it a few more days to carb up a bit more, currently 12 degrees and 14 psi. Already done a D rest for 48 hours. Taste is really nice with nice sweet aroma from the pilsener malt.


----------



## pcqypcqy

rossbaker said:


> I've done this and it seems to have worked a treat. Already up to a decent psi again after dry hopping this morning. What psi do you target now in order to get a good carb/pressure level one it is crash chilled?



It generally takes a while for the pressure to build, but your yeast is doing stuff so you've just got to trust it.

If you're using the keg king spunding valve, the numbers stop at 15. I ferment at 10 ish psi for a while, and then as I start my d-rest I'll dry hop (if dry hopping) at that stage and then turn the temperature up. I usually aim to get the pressure up around the area between the two screws on teh gauge, which I'm estimating is about 20 psi. When I crash it usualy settles down at 10 to 12 psi which is my serving pressure on my keezer.

You can simply calculate it using your standard carbonation charts. Choose your target CO2 volumes, and with your known ferment temperature you can read off what psi you need to hit to achieve that level of carbonation. Then when you chill, you'll maintain that same level.


----------



## pcqypcqy

For example, using this chart: http://kegking.com.au/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/KEGKING-Set-Forget-CO2-Carbonation-Chart.png

Say you were chasing 2.2 volumes of CO2 as your desired carbonation level and you're keezer serving temperature is 5 degrees C. Reading off that chart you'd need 10 psi to achieve this using the set/forget method.

Following that same column down to your ferment or d-rest temperature then tells you what level you need to achieve prior to chilling to lock in those volumes. So in this case it's 23psi at 18 degrees or 27psi at 22 degrees.


----------



## Mardoo

razz said:


> Not even at day 5 of my first attempt at this and I can't believe how well the ferment has gone so far and how easy the whole process has been. Ferment has hit final gravity after 96 hours and I'm giving it a few more days to carb up a bit more, currently 12 degrees and 14 psi. Already done a D rest for 48 hours. Taste is really nice with nice sweet aroma from the pilsener malt.


Yeah, it really preserves some of the lighter malt flavours that get lost/buried/stolen, what have you. And it is surprisingly simple. Welcome to your newest obsession about your pre-existing obsession


----------



## Hpal

I brewed a Stone and Wood recipe today, I put the dry hops in when I pitched. It's a pain to open the lid with pressure and it'll be finished in 4 or 5 days so it was way easier to chuck them in straight away.


----------



## razz

Hpal said:


> I brewed a Stone and Wood recipe today, I put the dry hops in when I pitched. It's a pain to open the lid with pressure and it'll be finished in 4 or 5 days so it was way easier to chuck them in straight away.



I would like to do this in my next brew Hpal, an IPA. Have you had much success with this method of dry hop?


----------



## Lionman

razz said:


> I would like to do this in my next brew Hpal, an IPA. Have you had much success with this method of dry hop?



I have done it a few times, it works really well.


----------



## Hpal

I've heard more and more that dry hops thrown in at the start of fermentation are the go, haven't done many hoppy beers in the pressure fermenter though, mainly lagers with no dry hops. I'd say if you're only doing one round of dry hopping then give it a crack, and you could always chuck some more in the keg later.


----------



## Dave70

Ok, 
Spunding valve ordered. 
Santa was going to bring me a Fermentasaurus but since I've got half a dozen cornys gathering dust, though I'd make use of them instead. 
For you guys using cornys, are there any mods you need to perform on the keg, or something you've discovered not already mentioned here? 
My loose plan is to go cube / keg / 60 seconds O2 / pitch / dry hop (if dry hopping) / lid on / purge / wait. Hows that sound?


----------



## Mardoo

Just in case these aren’t on your list: shortened dip tubes; pure screen filters are helpful (I get mine from Clever Brewing).


----------



## pcqypcqy

Mardoo said:


> Just in case these aren’t on your list: shortened dip tubes; pure screen filters are helpful (I get mine from Clever Brewing).



I'd say essential, rather than helpful. Transfers can be an absolute nightmare if you haven't shortened the dip tube enough, and/or your tube gets clogged with hop matter.


----------



## razz

Dave70 said:


> Ok,
> Spunding valve ordered.
> Santa was going to bring me a Fermentasaurus but since I've got half a dozen cornys gathering dust, though I'd make use of them instead.
> For you guys using cornys, are there any mods you need to perform on the keg, or something you've discovered not already mentioned here?
> My loose plan is to go cube / keg / 60 seconds O2 / pitch / dry hop (if dry hopping) / lid on / purge / wait. Hows that sound?



I’m using a kegmenter Dave, not a corny. The first thing I did was remove the dip tube and added a float and silicon tube kit from KegKing. I did this because I didn’t want to cut any off the dip tube.


----------



## Mardoo

Has anyone using the float tubes used a heavily krausening yeast? Do they get clogged? I myself might give them a go, but I use a lot of yeasts that throw a lot of Krause


----------



## koolkuna

Guys I pressure ferment in a corny shortened the dip tube by 1.5cm use a pure screen filter it works fine even when dry hopped. I’ve brew 10 beers this year in cornys under 15psi pressure with no problems with blocking during transfer


----------



## razz

Mardoo said:


> Has anyone using the float tubes used a heavily krausening yeast? Do they get clogged? I myself might give them a go, but I use a lot of yeasts that throw a lot of Krause



I’ve only used 34/70 so far Mardoo, and the Krausen is reduced due to the pressure. (I sneaked a peek at 24 hours) the hose on the float sits directly below it so may prevent much if any yeast getting in. The initial hydro sample I took after 48 hours had bugger all yeast in it.


----------



## Mardoo

(Reaches for wallet…)


----------



## koolkuna

I’ve used a variety of yeast. Blow off for 48 Hours until fermentation is at it’s peak then attach spunding valve. Working well for me


----------



## bradsbrew

I'v had krausen come out of the spunding and still no issue with the floating pick up. A quick shot of co2 would fix any blockages.


----------



## koolkuna

Yeah pressure fermentation is great. No more plastic all SSteel tastes better


----------



## Gloveski

Mardoo said:


> Has anyone using the float tubes used a heavily krausening yeast? Do they get clogged? I myself might give them a go, but I use a lot of yeasts that throw a lot of Krause



Yeah I have mate , no issues so far , tiniest bit of yeast first up . I usually squirt a little in a cup before transfer


----------



## Gloveski

Out of interest how long is it taking everyone else to pressure transfer to a keg . Just done one at 15.5 degrees and it took for ever


----------



## mtb

Gloveski said:


> Out of interest how long is it taking everyone else to pressure transfer to a keg . Just done one at 15.5 degrees and it took for ever


Maybe I'm missing something.. how is the temperature relevant to transfer speed?
Elaborate on your transfer method. I pressure transferred into two kegs today, each took ~10min but I could've loosened the spunding valve to get it done quicker


----------



## bradsbrew

I transfer at around 1 deg and have no problem with transfer. Transferring colder will help with time and also help with retention of co2.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Gloveski said:


> Out of interest how long is it taking everyone else to pressure transfer to a keg . Just done one at 15.5 degrees and it took for ever



I put the gas bottle on the kegmenter and set to a few psi above my serving pressure. I put a spunding valve on my corny, and set to about 5 psi. I let it transfer while I have the corny sitting on a set of scales so I can monitor the level. Takes about 10 mins. Would go quicker with a greater pressure differential.

Edit - i transfer at serving temp.


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## Lionman

I don't cold crash so transfer at fermentation temps. usually takes 15-20mins as need to go pretty slow.

I shortened the gas dip tubes so they sit flush with the inside of the keg, this helps prevent krausen getting pushed up it prematurely and stop actual wort getting pushed up it. Can fill right to the brim.

I have just bent the liquid dip tube so it sits a bit higher up. The kegs I have been fermenting in (chinese ones with no rubber base or handles) have a domed base so the dip tube now sits about 1-2cm above the dome, most of the yeast/trub sits at the bottom of the keg at the base of the dome. Very little yeast gets into the serving keg and little volume is lost.

Biggest annoyance is the fact my cubes are 23L but can only fit about 20L in the fermenting keg. When fermenting in a plastic fermenter I usually keg the first 20L and then fill a few PET bottles with the rest. I think I need to find some smaller cubes so I dont waste so much wort when pressure fermenting, or get bigger kegmenters...


----------



## mtb

Lionman said:


> I think I need to get bigger kegmenters...


FTFY


----------



## Gloveski

I 


mtb said:


> Maybe I'm missing something.. how is the temperature relevant to transfer speed?
> Elaborate on your transfer method. I pressure transferred into two kegs today, each took ~10min but I could've loosened the spunding valve to get it done quicker



I attached co2 to fermenter at about 15 psi
And pressurised receiving keg to about 12 then adjusted spunding valve on receiving keg until it started hissing . It seemed to stall at times and I had to keep upping pressure on kegmenter to get it to continue transferring


----------



## Gloveski

Took about 45 minutes


----------



## Lionman

mtb said:


> FTFY



Pretty much. There are 30L commercial kegs for sale in Perth on gumtree for $30. Considering converting some to kegmenters by cutting off the commercial disconnect and replacing it with a 4" tri clover ferrule. Have to go and see some steel fabrication places and get a quote for the cutting/welding. Should be able to build a 30L kegmenter for under $100 worth of parts. The welding might cost a bit though.


----------



## mtb

Gloveski said:


> I
> 
> 
> I attached co2 to fermenter at about 15 psi
> And pressurised receiving keg to about 12 then adjusted spunding valve on receiving keg until it started hissing . It seemed to stall at times and I had to keep upping pressure on kegmenter to get it to continue transferring



I'd say that's due to the spunding valve being a little inconsistent. I have the same problem, the spring mechanism isn't the best, I have the model sold by KegKing. Be prepared to adjust the valve throughout the transfer - but also, if you've adequately purged your receiving keg with CO2, transferring fast shouldn't cause excessive foam. That's my experience anyway.


----------



## Lionman

I dont bother with a spunding valve for transfer. I attach the keg jumper, vent the kegmenter, attach gas and set pressure to 5 or so PSI. I use a fully purged receiving keg and just lock the PRV open.

Little bit of foam comes through towards the end of the transfer, not much though. I just close the prv when actual liquid come out the prv through or when gas is drawn from the kegmenter.

I do this outside and it's easy to just give the keg a hose down afterwards.


----------



## Dave70

Mardoo said:


> (Reaches for wallet…)



Yep, one of those 'please explain' statement months for me..

Whos this Keg King?
Whats a spunding valve? 
Whos Hoppy days? 
Whats Clever Brewing?

Aaaand so on...


----------



## Gloveski

Just transferred another one took about 15 minutes this time . Happy days


----------



## Crusty

I'm not really happy with my first ferment under pressure due to pouring foam all the time.
The beer is pretty good & I'm almost certain that the process does as everyone says like reduced esters, phenols & you can certainly drink the beer so much quicker than you normally would following standard fermenting procedures.
For some reason though, I cannot balance my system with this keg & continually pour foamy beers.
I naturally carbed mine for 48hrs @26psi & for the life of me, I can;t get the bastard balanced.


----------



## razz

Crusty said:


> I'm not really happy with my first ferment under pressure due to pouring foam all the time.
> The beer is pretty good & I'm almost certain that the process does as everyone says like reduced esters, phenols & you can certainly drink the beer so much quicker than you normally would following standard fermenting procedures.
> For some reason though, I cannot balance my system with this keg & continually pour foamy beers.
> I naturally carbed mine for 48hrs @26psi & for the life of me, I can;t get the bastard balanced.


What pressure do you keep your system balanced at Crusty?


----------



## razz

Ok. I have now kegged my first batch after 10 days. The ferment went along just fine and I have been cold conditioning the kegmenter for the last 2 days. A couple of things that came up worth noting. 
1. I lost more to the kegmenter than I did with a conical, not much, about three litres of yeast beer slurry compared to 1-1 1/2 litres. I can allow for that in the next brew.
2. I had the temp sensor sitting in a 3 litre jug of water, compared to inserted in the conical. So my ferment temp was most likely a few degrees higher. Given that, the flavour after kegging is pretty bloody good.
3. I ran the beer through a 1 micron filter and this took about 15-20 mins per keg (as per Gloveski's experiences)
4. Carbonation was lower than I expected (on kegging) but given the variance in fermentation temp I think that accounts for less carb. (The temp sensor said 2 degrees with 75 kpa on the keg, but the temp in the keg may have been a bit higher)
5. **** all yeast bits in the filter. But you get that with very cold green beer.
So, anywho, pretty wrapped with how this turned out. I want to do an IPA in the next few days so I can make a few adjustments based on my first brew. If that goes okay then I will stick with pressure fermenting. 
Anyone want to buy a 46 litre conical?


----------



## Coldspace

Crusty said:


> I'm not really happy with my first ferment under pressure due to pouring foam all the time.
> The beer is pretty good & I'm almost certain that the process does as everyone says like reduced esters, phenols & you can certainly drink the beer so much quicker than you normally would following standard fermenting procedures.
> For some reason though, I cannot balance my system with this keg & continually pour foamy beers.
> I naturally carbed mine for 48hrs @26psi & for the life of me, I can;t get the bastard balanced.


Hey mate,
What was the temp when it was stable for 2 days at 26psi.?
What type of beer.?

I have found that I was getting foamy beers at the start if,
I rushed the end and it may still have over carbed before cc.
Really high wheat ales or reds/stouts etc etc, deff need lower psi at the end. Try aim for 19-21 max at 19-20 degrees.
Lagers , 26 max at 20 for the final rest. But if still foamy and over carbed then next batch finish lower like 23-24 psi. I am aiming mine to 24 psi finish now, and adjust up if needed next time for the receipe.

I have found I prefer to finish slightly under carbed then allow when at cc temps to either add a burst of gas, or when on tap leave at pouring pressure for cuppla days to steady out.

One theory I have is the smaller carb bubbles allow much more foam to develop . Others with more experience can add to this one, just my observations .

I have had several over carbed ferments in the first 6-8 batches but everything ATM seems to be working good for me.

Also, if your beer is not cold enough it may be allowing the co2 to come out of solution faster at pour causing foaming, I dispense mine at 0- 1 degrees with no issue through a chilled flooded font.
If your font or taps are warmer especially in the warm weather ATM this could be an issue. But I suspect it's over carbed. Depressurise the keg abit over the next several days to take out some co2. Or if you can lift the keg, take out of fridge, leave for 3 hrs to warm alittle, purge off head pressure, re-chill and should be good a day or 2 later.

If you dispense you beers warmer than mine, then you may on your next pressure ferment deff drop the finished pressures back and leave stable for 3 days before cc. So they are lower carb.

Cheers


----------



## Crusty

Thanks guys.
Stable for 48hrs @18deg & used a carbonation chart to get me around 2.5vol/Co2.
Dropped to 2 deg after that & disconnecting the spundy. Serving the beer now at 2deg but just can;t seem to hit the right serving pressure. I'm just using a beer gun that stays cold inside the fridge. I think I'm over carbed so I'll have to look at that next time. It's a Lager & when the foam dies down, it's pretty good.


----------



## Coldspace

18 degrees at 26 psi, prob slightly over carbed, mine finish at 21 degrees and 25-26 psi and it's been better.

It doesn't seem to take much between to little and too much with these brewing techniques , I've settled now on going slightly less, then allowing alittle adjustment on the finished product in my serving keg with my gas bottle.

Also, one thing that can cause diff things is if you have a bigger headspace or diff headspace at the higher pressure of warm finish before cc, the beer will absorb more co2, I've used my 50 ltr kegmenter with only 35 ltr batch and it was way over carbed to the same batch at 45 ltrs, one thing to keep in mind.

Have fun, it's a great way to brew once you get to know your system.


----------



## Dave70

This topic needs a sticky "Guide to fermenting under pressure" version to go with the other popular and informative 'Guide to' series.


----------



## pcqypcqy

How much line on your gun?

Evens though it stays cold you still need to have a decent length to slow the beer down.




Crusty said:


> Thanks guys.
> Stable for 48hrs @18deg & used a carbonation chart to get me around 2.5vol/Co2.
> Dropped to 2 deg after that & disconnecting the spundy. Serving the beer now at 2deg but just can;t seem to hit the right serving pressure. I'm just using a beer gun that stays cold inside the fridge. I think I'm over carbed so I'll have to look at that next time. It's a Lager & when the foam dies down, it's pretty good.


----------



## Crusty

pcqypcqy said:


> How much line on your gun?
> 
> Evens though it stays cold you still need to have a decent length to slow the beer down.



Enough to know it pours perfectly fine when force carbing a keg at 300kpa for 24hrs.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I have been following this thread and have bought all the bits and pieces to make a couple of Ghetto pressurised fermenter's, but last night came across this. https://www.brewshop.co.nz/blog/fermenting-under-pressure/
Which in turn led me to this. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1984.tb04242.x/pdf
Will still go ahead and make my PF's to make my lagers but what is the step by step method of fermenting ales you guys are using, are you harvesting the co2 and putting it back in towards the end of fermentation?


----------



## Dave70

Any of you guys harvesting yeast, if you indeed can, from the blow off, or pitching straight back onto the cake? 
Or does the whole process knock them around to much for another few rounds.


----------



## mtb

Dave70 said:


> Any of you guys harvesting yeast, if you indeed can, from the blow off, or pitching straight back onto the cake?
> Or does the whole process knock them around to much for another few rounds.


I've read plenty online to suggest pitching onto a yeast cake is bad news. Great writeup but it was on another forum so I won't link here, but search and you'll probably find. It's an overpitch risk apparently.

I harvest yeast from my kegmenters. After an extensive cold crash I chuck on a pluto gun and dispense ~500mL into a flask, after this much it usually runs clear (yeast strain dependent), then I pressure transfer to keg. Plenty of yeast left in the kegmenter.


----------



## razz

I set mine up to blow out into a 9lt corny Dave, but it never built up enough foam. Even when I was cleaning the kegmenter after use I noticed there was no krausen stains under the dome top. I did pitch a lot of yeast so maybe it didn't work that hard. I put it down to the pressure.


----------



## Gloveski

Dave70 said:


> Any of you guys harvesting yeast, if you indeed can, from the blow off, or pitching straight back onto the cake?
> Or does the whole process knock them around to much for another few rounds.



I've done two lagers pitched on to a yeast cake . Drinking one know and it was awesome


----------



## Mardoo

According to the research Ive read you start to see degradation in yeast health for fermenting at 30 psi or higher.

I’ve started messing with fermenting in a keg with a full-length tube, and transferring to another keg with a short dip tube for cold crash or dry hop. I leave a couple litres of wort in the fermenting keg. Then I give the fermenting keg a solid shake. Then I take off a couple bottles of wort as mtb said and let them settle out.


----------



## Gloveski

I've tried to ferment mine at about 11 psi . No signs of issues so far 6 brews in . Experimenting next batch I'll be pitching on to a yeast cake that will be about 20 days old and left at 2 degrees under pressure . More from necessity as I would have brewed Monday put pulled a hammy Saturday playing cricket . Second one this season , it seemed a great idea to come out of retirement at 43 . Also working 7 on 7 off so my normal brewing regime has been thrown out the window some what


----------



## bradsbrew

I have found that if I do not use oxygen the beers tend to under attenuate up to 10 points. I thought it must be to much pressure? But I can ferment at the same pressure after using oxygen and they attenuate very close to expected. Maybe it's because it was the 4th gen of slurry all pressure fermented? I generally have 5 cubes from each batch so it's not due to different batches. Having said that the last one started at 1070 and ended at 1024. I added around 30% water to bring it back down to 1014 and it's a cracker. Next batch will be using oxygen, so it will be interesting to see the outcome now that I am taking notes.

Cheers


----------



## Gloveski

I've read so much on homebrewing for everyone that says pitching on a yeast cake is over pitching another says it not an issue at the homebrew level . I've got to the stage were I'm experimenting myself and my own tastebuds will decide


----------



## Gloveski

bradsbrew said:


> I have found that if I do not use oxygen the beers tend to under attenuate up to 10 points. I thought it must be to much pressure? But I can ferment at the same pressure after using oxygen and they attenuate very close to expected. Maybe it's because it was the 4th gen of slurry all pressure fermented? I generally have 5 cubes from each batch so it's not due to different batches. Having said that the last one started at 1070 and ended at 1024. I added around 30% water to bring it back down to 1014 and it's a cracker. Next batch will be using oxygen, so it will be interesting to see the outcome now that I am taking notes.
> 
> Cheers


Interesting oxygen is one area I haven't ventured down as yet , more for the fact of the money I have spent on everything else at this stage . But I've had no attenuation issues as yet but only 6 brews in under pressure


----------



## Mardoo

I’ve been using the Vitality Starter method with no pure O2 and haven’t had any attenuation issues. However, that’s technically an oxygenation method. I’m hoping to try it with pure O2 soon. I haven’t tried no oxygenation at all.


----------



## Mall

I've now done 6 brews under pressure in a 50L keg, 40L batch. Quality has improved another level, hop presence remains, and spear not altered at all, using a coupler with ball lock connects.

Once I fill my 2 corny kegs to go into kegerator for serving, I transfer (CO2) a PET bottle full of bolied/cooled water to mix with the yeast then push yeast out into the Pet bottle. After that the usual rinsing and labelling for next batch.


----------



## Dave70

Mardoo said:


> According to the research Ive read you start to see degradation in yeast health for fermenting at 30 psi or higher.
> 
> I’ve started messing with fermenting in a keg with a full-length tube, and transferring to another keg with a short dip tube for cold crash or dry hop. I leave a couple litres of wort in the fermenting keg. Then I give the fermenting keg a solid shake. Then I take off a couple bottles of wort as mtb said and let them settle out.



Along those lines (sort of..) I was thinking of tig welding an extra couple 15mm stainless nipples into the top of the keg and having a specific disconnect for each stage - 1 - long tube for the yeast collection (perhaps fit with a ball valve to avoid bastard cloggage) - 2 - Short tube with screen for the beer - 3 - regular short for blowoff - 4 - shortened short for spunding valve. 
Though considering I've yet to brew a single beer under pressure, I may be getting carried away..


----------



## pcqypcqy

Crusty said:


> Enough to know it pours perfectly fine when force carbing a keg at 300kpa for 24hrs.



Fair enough. All I can say is have very few issues transferring and then serving immediately with my keezer gear (either taps or Pluto).

The only time I have had issues is when I get hop matter clogged in poppet, or hop socks jammed in the end of the dip tube. But if you've transferred already with no issues, then not sure that helps explain it.


----------



## Mardoo

Dave70 said:


> Along those lines (sort of..) I was thinking of tig welding an extra couple 15mm stainless nipples into the top of the keg and having a specific disconnect for each stage - 1 - long tube for the yeast collection (perhaps fit with a ball valve to avoid bastard cloggage) - 2 - Short tube with screen for the beer - 3 - regular short for blowoff - 4 - shortened short for spunding valve.
> Though considering I've yet to brew a single beer under pressure, I may be getting carried away..



Yep, probably not enough experience with PF yet to build one for yourself. Build one for me instead


----------



## Crusty

pcqypcqy said:


> Fair enough. All I can say is have very few issues transferring and then serving immediately with my keezer gear (either taps or Pluto).
> 
> The only time I have had issues is when I get hop matter clogged in poppet, or hop socks jammed in the end of the dip tube. But if you've transferred already with no issues, then not sure that helps explain it.



I think 26psi @18deg for 48hrs must of over carbed it.
I'll have to look at a bit less pressure next time & let the Co2 bottle pick up the slack @serving pressure.
I didn't transfer mine, I'm drinking it straight from the 50L keg / fermenter.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Video of my current batch of IPA #stupidegoIPA


----------



## pcqypcqy

Crusty said:


> I think 26psi @18deg for 48hrs must of over carbed it.
> I'll have to look at a bit less pressure next time & let the Co2 bottle pick up the slack @serving pressure.
> I didn't transfer mine, I'm drinking it straight from the 50L keg / fermenter.



18 degrees and 26 psi should be 2.4 volumes, so you should be ok.


I'd have a look in your pick up tube, it may be clogged with hops, hop sock, yeast, whatever.


----------



## Crusty

pcqypcqy said:


> 18 degrees and 26 psi should be 2.4 volumes, so you should be ok.
> 
> 
> I'd have a look in your pick up tube, it may be clogged with hops, hop sock, yeast, whatever.



Nothing in there.
Serving from a 50L commercial keg.
It's over carbed for sure.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Crusty said:


> Nothing in there.
> Serving from a 50L commercial keg.
> It's over carbed for sure.



Can you put a spunding valve on it and measure the pressure it's at now, along with the temp?

2.4 volumes shouldnt be overcarbed at all.


----------



## Lionman

Does anyone know for sure what style coupler this will take?








Edit: Pretty sure its a Type S?


----------



## bradsbrew

Dave70 said:


> Along those lines (sort of..) I was thinking of tig welding an extra couple 15mm stainless nipples into the top of the keg and having a specific disconnect for each stage - 1 - long tube for the yeast collection (perhaps fit with a ball valve to avoid bastard cloggage) - 2 - Short tube with screen for the beer - 3 - regular short for blowoff - 4 - shortened short for spunding valve.
> Though considering I've yet to brew a single beer under pressure, I may be getting carried away..


I would seriously suggest making #2 a KK floating pick up, they work very well and the clearest beer is always at the top. I have two 23 L myton rod kegs that i have been using for PF as well as the Fsaurus. I am getting float pick ups for the MR kegs. You can still keep #1, when transfer to keg has finished, give the FV a swirl to mix the yeast and left of beer, then send from the pick up to a settling flask.


----------



## Coldspace

I've read that article and it says over 2 atm pressure , so I'd say above 30 psi is bad.

I've always still pitched yeast starters or appropriate amount of dry yeast to style, oxygen added, and run the primary ferment in the middle of temp range of yeast with usual rises towards the end and carb up. Never tried higher temps as it's working for me so don't want to try and fix something that's not broke as they say.

One day if I could be arsed , I've got 3 kegmenters , should try a ghetto brulosphy xperiment lol and try diff temps. Na.

I run mine between 10-14 depending on how accurate my spunding valves are on the day.

Pressure rise at end to low 20s for carb up and it's when the yeast is 95% done it's job anyway.

Ales, stouts, reds are all great, just run mid ferment pressures under 1 ATM , and keep final pressures in check with the style, keep slightly under if unsure. But this method was obvious designed for lagers, but I do all my brewing now this way with great success , plus added benifits of full closed systems, and natural carb mouth feel, etc.

Plus it looks cool 

All my beers, about 30 plus pressure ferments down now have gone great.

Yes, too high finish pressure can cause over carb, so can a lower pressure say 26 psi with a bigger volume headspace cause over carb on cc due to the volume of co2 compared to volume of liquid in the keg, It's done this for me on a few occasions in my early batches.

This is just my findings from batch to batch, but maybe some of the more technical guys here could add to this about pressures, temps, volumes etc etc..

So, keep in mind guys, till you get to know your systems , go slightly easier on the final end pressures especially if you have a bigger headspace in the keg and if under carbed , top up from gas bottle.
Easier than over carb beers.

I have my 3 kegmenters dialed in great now and every second batch or so, only needs a 30 psi squirt or 2 over 24 hrs to bring perfect. Some great from the start.

Cheers


----------



## mtb

Lionman said:


> Does anyone know for sure what style coupler this will take?
> Edit: Pretty sure its a Type S?


I know it's a Type S - because I know for sure it's not a type D. Had one of these Trenstar kegs a while back and my Ds didn't fit it.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Coldspace said:


> I've read that article and it says over 2 atm pressure , so I'd say above 30 psi is bad.
> 
> I've always still pitched yeast starters or appropriate amount of dry yeast to style, oxygen added, and run the primary ferment in the middle of temp range of yeast with usual rises towards the end and carb up. Never tried higher temps as it's working for me so don't want to try and fix something that's not broke as they say.
> 
> One day if I could be arsed , I've got 3 kegmenters , should try a ghetto brulosphy xperiment lol and try diff temps. Na.
> 
> I run mine between 10-14 depending on how accurate my spunding valves are on the day.
> 
> Pressure rise at end to low 20s for carb up and it's when the yeast is 95% done it's job anyway.
> 
> Ales, stouts, reds are all great, just run mid ferment pressures under 1 ATM , and keep final pressures in check with the style, keep slightly under if unsure. But this method was obvious designed for lagers, but I do all my brewing now this way with great success , plus added benifits of full closed systems, and natural carb mouth feel, etc.
> 
> Plus it looks cool
> 
> All my beers, about 30 plus pressure ferments down now have gone great.
> 
> Yes, too high finish pressure can cause over carb, so can a lower pressure say 26 psi with a bigger volume headspace cause over carb on cc due to the volume of co2 compared to volume of liquid in the keg, It's done this for me on a few occasions in my early batches.
> 
> This is just my findings from batch to batch, but maybe some of the more technical guys here could add to this about pressures, temps, volumes etc etc..
> 
> So, keep in mind guys, till you get to know your systems , go slightly easier on the final end pressures especially if you have a bigger headspace in the keg and if under carbed , top up from gas bottle.
> Easier than over carb beers.
> 
> I have my 3 kegmenters dialed in great now and every second batch or so, only needs a 30 psi squirt or 2 over 24 hrs to bring perfect. Some great from the start.
> 
> Cheers


There are other papers where they went down to .5 atm pressure which would be around 20 psi and the results weren't great
but I will be going ahead with my build with the intention of lagers for the kegmenter and at the moment thinking of for ales using a kegmenter as a secondary in to which I have diverted the co2 from the initial fermentation. I have also noticed that the commercial breweries redirect their captured co2 back into the bottom of the fermenter to keep the yeast roused when making lagers.
I think if it worked with ales the breweries would all be doing it, it stands to reason when production is held up by fermentation time, and it was interesting to see that the research carried out at Heriot and Watt University was financed by Courage.
I think that the 10 to 15 psi looks good but do you add any pressure before fermentation has started?
These are the pressure relief valves I have sent off for to make the spunding valves, supposedly accurate.


----------



## bradsbrew

Where did you source the PRV's from?


----------



## Coldspace

Yes, I add alittle pressure from start . Mainly to test for any leaks etc with starsan. Not upto normal ferment pressure as I like to watch it rise up to the hissing starts to let me know it's fired.

One thing I've noticed with these kk kegmenters , is if you cank the locking bracket up too tight they can leak alittle at the hinged area over 20 psi. Also don't use keg lub on the silicone skirt, you will get a better seal with it clean and just sprayed with weak starsan when you starsan the keg and attachments prior to fill.
I just hand tightned as hard as I can then do 1-2 more turns with a screw driver. That is heaps.
I've had carbed kegs that won't settle above 21-22 psi at final carb because of this. No biggy as I just top up gas at the end.

I prechill my cubes of wort to the pitch /primary ferment temp fill the kegmenter, oxy up, pitch yeast, seal up, then if it's a really full batch or aggressive yeast etc, I run blow off tube from gas out of kegmenter to liquid in of either my spare 9 ltr corney, or mini , then attach spunding valve onto the small keg. = no more blow through the spunding valve.
Once all attached up. I pressure up to 7-8 psi , and with spunding valve I pressurise a soft drink bottle with 15 psi and carb cap. ( read this tip on this forum) and tweak the valve to slight hiss, take off, de pressure the spunding valve by pressing the disconnect pin, then attach it to blow-off keg and it should read 7-8 psi and stay stable over night.

This shows me my closed system is sealed nicely , nothing happens usually for 18-24 hrs whilst the yeast breeds up, then bam, pressure up today ( couple nice lagers I mashed up last weekend)at a nice 14 psi, hissing nicely and any muck not going through the spunding. Usually 3 days later, I ditch the blow off setup and click spunding straight upto the kegmenter , and carry on from there.
Just too easy , and a marked quality improvement across all styles.

I agree, we are not scientists doing research , well some here are which is great, I originally bought one kegmenter for just learning lagers this way, but loved my odd ales through it I bought 2 more. I understand some literature says no good, this and that, but plenty out there say it's good.

One thing I know, is my brews both lagers and ales have all turned out great, and I'm glad I've gone down this path way, plus it's fun way.

Cheers


----------



## Dave70

Coldspace said:


> I've read that article and it says over 2 atm pressure , so I'd say above 30 psi is bad.
> 
> I've always still pitched yeast starters or appropriate amount of dry yeast to style, oxygen added, and run the primary ferment in the middle of temp range of yeast with usual rises towards the end and carb up. Never tried higher temps as it's working for me so don't want to try and fix something that's not broke as they say.
> 
> One day if I could be arsed , I've got 3 kegmenters , should try a ghetto brulosphy xperiment lol and try diff temps. Na.
> 
> I run mine between 10-14 depending on how accurate my spunding valves are on the day.
> 
> *Pressure rise at end to low 20s for carb up and it's when the yeast is 95% done it's job anyway.*
> 
> Ales, stouts, reds are all great, just run mid ferment pressures under 1 ATM , and keep final pressures in check with the style, keep slightly under if unsure. But this method was obvious designed for lagers, but I do all my brewing now this way with great success , plus added benifits of full closed systems, and natural carb mouth feel, etc.
> 
> Plus it looks cool
> 
> All my beers, about 30 plus pressure ferments down now have gone great.
> 
> Yes, too high finish pressure can cause over carb, so can a lower pressure say 26 psi with a bigger volume headspace cause over carb on cc due to the volume of co2 compared to volume of liquid in the keg, It's done this for me on a few occasions in my early batches.
> 
> This is just my findings from batch to batch, but maybe some of the more technical guys here could add to this about pressures, temps, volumes etc etc..
> 
> So, keep in mind guys, till you get to know your systems , go slightly easier on the final end pressures especially if you have a bigger headspace in the keg and if under carbed , top up from gas bottle.
> Easier than over carb beers.
> 
> I have my 3 kegmenters dialed in great now and every second batch or so, only needs a 30 psi squirt or 2 over 24 hrs to bring perfect. Some great from the start.
> 
> Cheers



To this end, anybody know if springs inside a dial pressure gauge are calibrated to measure in a linear rate, i.e. you can project the increments past the point where the gauge stops reading and sill get an accurate reading, or are the mechanisms progressively wound? The one I have on delivery only goes to 15 psi.

Let me make that even more tedious. If the big hand continued on for about another 60 degrees of rotation, would we be near enough to 20psi, or actually much higher? Or indeed, ruin the gauge?


----------



## Fitzlp

wide eyed and legless said:


> There are other papers where they went down to .5 atm pressure which would be around 20 psi and the results weren't great
> but I will be going ahead with my build with the intention of lagers for the kegmenter and at the moment thinking of for ales using a kegmenter as a secondary in to which I have diverted the co2 from the initial fermentation. I have also noticed that the commercial breweries redirect their captured co2 back into the bottom of the fermenter to keep the yeast roused when making lagers.
> I think if it worked with ales the breweries would all be doing it, it stands to reason when production is held up by fermentation time, and it was interesting to see that the research carried out at Heriot and Watt University was financed by Courage.
> I think that the 10 to 15 psi looks good but do you add any pressure before fermentation has started?
> These are the pressure relief valves I have sent off for to make the spunding valves, supposedly accurate.



fHey gziczLp sTisfaiDdxMorning iifigzcuh
CIs


----------



## bradsbrew

Fitzlp said:


> fHey gziczLp sTisfaiDdxMorning iifigzcuh
> CIs


Totally agree Brother.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

bradsbrew said:


> Where did you source the PRV's from?


E bay.


----------



## Digga

wide eyed and legless said:


> E bay.


Got a link? How much?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/0-100-P...re-Relief-Valve-Control-Devices-/291696721009
Just got to get a couple of decent gauges now.


----------



## pirateagenda

Lionman said:


> Pretty much. There are 30L commercial kegs for sale in Perth on gumtree for $30. Considering converting some to kegmenters by cutting off the commercial disconnect and replacing it with a 4" tri clover ferrule. Have to go and see some steel fabrication places and get a quote for the cutting/welding. Should be able to build a 30L kegmenter for under $100 worth of parts. The welding might cost a bit though.



even cheaper just cut a hole that fits a corny lid and put a couple of weldless gas and liquid posts in it.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Lionman said:


> Pretty much. There are 30L commercial kegs for sale in Perth on gumtree for $30. Considering converting some to kegmenters by cutting off the commercial disconnect and replacing it with a 4" tri clover ferrule. Have to go and see some steel fabrication places and get a quote for the cutting/welding. Should be able to build a 30L kegmenter for under $100 worth of parts. The welding might cost a bit though.


I was thinking along the lines of these 30 litre, 60 psi would be enough. Wouldn't it ?
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/cha...-drum-with-lid-camping-food-garden/1133741726


----------



## Mardoo

wide eyed and legless said:


> I was thinking along the lines of these 30 litre, 60 psi would be enough. Wouldn't it ?
> https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/cha...-drum-with-lid-camping-food-garden/1133741726


Awesome for grain storage! I think mine are 50L. Never occurred to me to try pressure fermenting in them. 60 psi is plenty.


----------



## pirateagenda

wide eyed and legless said:


> I was thinking along the lines of these 30 litre, 60 psi would be enough. Wouldn't it ?
> https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/cha...-drum-with-lid-camping-food-garden/1133741726



do they hold 60 psi? 

thats a great cheap way to do it if they do.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I have been looking at all sorts of alternative kegmenters, I bought 2 heavy duty 25 litre cubes(should be 28 litre capacity when taking in the head space) about $9.00 each. Another option was the 20 litre back pack sprayers $30 each and then the barrels with the clip lock lid which on you tube a guy filled with compressed air and it blew at 65 psi.
I am looking for one around Melbourne and I will give it a go, Plastic Man $28 each heavy duty for the 30 litre so I will try it, every confidence it will work.


----------



## Shadime

Sorry if its already been asked but I bought one of these and want to know how much of the dip tube do I cut off to add this on the end.
Thanks in advance


----------



## pirateagenda

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have been looking at all sorts of alternative kegmenters, I bought 2 heavy duty 25 litre cubes(should be 28 litre capacity when taking in the head space) about $9.00 each. Another option was the 20 litre back pack sprayers $30 each and then the barrels with the clip lock lid which on you tube a guy filled with compressed air and it blew at 65 psi.
> I am looking for one around Melbourne and I will give it a go, Plastic Man $28 each heavy duty for the 30 litre so I will try it, every confidence it will work.



before i knew about pressure fermenting i capped a fermenting cube a bit early. it puffed up like a balloon but never blew and must have been at the right pressure cause it was carbed enough to drink straight after kegging. so it should work for you!


----------



## Dave70

Shadime said:


> View attachment 110075
> 
> 
> Sorry if its already been asked but I bought one of these and want to know how much of the dip tube do I cut off to add this on the end.
> Thanks in advance



Just like mine. Word on the street seems to be about 20mm. But I think the cool kids are going with Fermentasuarsus type floating dip tubes. Clever bit of kit.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

pirateagenda said:


> before i knew about pressure fermenting i capped a fermenting cube a bit early. it puffed up like a balloon but never blew and must have been at the right pressure cause it was carbed enough to drink straight after kegging. so it should work for you!


I think the cube would work just a bit fiddly putting in the barbs or posts, in an earlier post the guy using a 15 or 10 litre cube said the pressure was 6 psi but I would say he had one of the cheap gauges.


----------



## Shadime

Dave70 said:


> Just like mine. Word on the street seems to be about 20mm. But I think the cool kids are going with Fermentasuarsus type floating dip tubes. Clever bit of kit.



Thanks for the reply, Saw one of those once I had already ordered the filter. they look great, if the filter works well then I will be happy


----------



## cliffo

Dave70 said:


> But I think the cool kids are going with Fermentasuarsus type floating dip tubes



Am using these in two kegmenters and they work great.

Couldn't reccommend them highly enough.


----------



## bigmacthepunker

Kkk


----------



## Mardoo

You don’t have to cut off any. I have two fermenters I use for just the primary fermentation. They have full length dip tubes with pure screen filters. Then I transfer to another keg with a short dip tube and screen for dry-hopping, cold crash, and any other additives. I shorten by Dave70’s 20mm. Then I get easy, clean yeast harvest out of the first keg, and clear beer out of the second. So far the sanitation has been strong in this one  so multiple keg-to-keg transfers haven’t been an issue.


----------



## Dave70

Mardoo said:


> You don’t have to cut off any. I have two fermenters I use for just the primary fermentation. They have full length dip tubes with pure screen filters. Then I transfer to another keg with a short dip tube and screen for dry-hopping, cold crash, and any other additives. I shorten by Dave70’s 20mm. *Then I get easy, clean yeast harvest out of the first keg, and clear beer out of the second.* So far the sanitation has been strong in this one  so multiple keg-to-keg transfers haven’t been an issue.



Thats mucho important. Listen to Mardoo. Cut once.


----------



## malt junkie

I recently spent some $$$$ (at swap) on 2 KK kegmenters and a 40L(?) Mytton Rodd keg plan to ferment in the Kegmenters and dry hop/clarify in the MR. Still waiting on news from the states on spunding valves. Looking forward to fermenting lagers on the shed floor in winter.


----------



## rossbaker

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have been looking at all sorts of alternative kegmenters, I bought 2 heavy duty 25 litre cubes(should be 28 litre capacity when taking in the head space) about $9.00 each. Another option was the 20 litre back pack sprayers $30 each and then the barrels with the clip lock lid which on you tube a guy filled with compressed air and it blew at 65 psi.
> I am looking for one around Melbourne and I will give it a go, Plastic Man $28 each heavy duty for the 30 litre so I will try it, every confidence it will work.



I really like these ghetto solutions, but one of my favourite things about using cornys or other kegs is how cheap it is as a stainless fermenter. Swings and roundabouts...


----------



## Gloveski

cliffo said:


> Am using these in two kegmenters and they work great.
> 
> Couldn't reccommend them highly enough.



Yeah they work a treat , get a tiny bit of yeast at the start , most likely stuck on float from Krausen , basically leaves a nice yeast cake with a small amount of wort left


----------



## Gloveski

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have been following this thread and have bought all the bits and pieces to make a couple of Ghetto pressurised fermenter's, but last night came across this. https://www.brewshop.co.nz/blog/fermenting-under-pressure/
> Which in turn led me to this. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1984.tb04242.x/pdf
> Will still go ahead and make my PF's to make my lagers but what is the step by step method of fermenting ales you guys are using, are you harvesting the co2 and putting it back in towards the end of fermentation?




Just thought I would add to this regarding ales . Done my first ale pressure fermented an S&W pacific ale clone (brewmans recipe) . I transferred off cake and dry hoped 2 days at 15.5 and the 2 days at 2 and then transferred again to serving keg . This ended up the best hop aroma and taste I have had yet . 

I had issues transferring to serving keg as my gas bottle is all but empty so had to use racking cane . I am not sure if it's because I put the hops in naked or the hopping was done off the yeast cake and under pressure . Or the dry hop was a mixture of warm and cold temps But it's just night and day to what I have dry hopped before .
I think it could be even be the 0 minute addition aroma/flavour is not being lost when pressure fermenting also , not sure


----------



## Coldspace

Love my ales out of my kegmenters .
Plus all grain brewing, plenty of friends leave after bbqs abit envious of my gear and understanding wife, especially when a mate leaves and winges that he's got to spend 70. Bucks on a nice carton, and I've got like 16-20 cartons worth floating around on tap or kegmenters lol... Makes a man feel rich  
This is so much fun...
Such a great hobby/skill to have.
Such a great forum for us fanatics to swap ideas.

Cheers


----------



## Digga

Hear hear!


----------



## Stubbie

Anyone pressure fermented a kolsch and if so how did it turn out?


----------



## mtb

Stubbie said:


> Anyone pressure fermented a kolsch and if so how did it turn out?


Plenty. Got 40L cold conditioning now, in fact. They perform as well as any other ale, although Wyeast 2565 is a slow flocculator. Be prepared to cold condition for a while before kegging unless you want that distinctive Kolsch yeast aroma all up in yo' nostrils (not necessarily a bad thing)


----------



## Mardoo

I always cold crash my kolsch for a month and fine it towards the end.


----------



## rude

I've got 2 Kolsch's that were kegged in October waiting for xmas
They are starting to get a little lighter, 3 weeks to go


----------



## Stubbie

Thanks for the replies. I'm on a tight schedule to produce some HB for the Jan holidays and pressure fermenting may just prove to be my saviour.


----------



## Dave70

pcqypcqy said:


> For example, using this chart: http://kegking.com.au/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/KEGKING-Set-Forget-CO2-Carbonation-Chart.png
> 
> Say you were chasing 2.2 volumes of CO2 as your desired carbonation level and you're keezer serving temperature is 5 degrees C. Reading off that chart you'd need 10 psi to achieve this using the set/forget method.
> 
> Following that same column down to your ferment or d-rest temperature then tells you what level you need to achieve prior to chilling to lock in those volumes. So in this case it's 23psi at 18 degrees or 27psi at 22 degrees.



Am I missing something here that deals with duration under pressure / temp to attain the desired CO2? The plan is to ferment at around 20, crash chill (2 deg) then transfer to serving keg. To get my 2.2 volumes, this calls up for 7.2 psi. Working back from my current method of 300kpa @ 2 deg for 24 hours gets me about 10.8 psi (75 kpa) for 96 hours? Is that all there is to it? 
Sorry for the convolution. I'm an idiot..


----------



## pcqypcqy

Dave70 said:


> Am I missing something here that deals with duration under pressure / temp to attain the desired CO2? The plan is to ferment at around 20, crash chill (2 deg) then transfer to serving keg. To get my 2.2 volumes, this calls up for 7.2 psi. Working back from my current method of 300kpa @ 2 deg for 24 hours gets me about 10.8 psi (75 kpa) for 96 hours? Is that all there is to it?
> Sorry for the convolution. I'm an idiot..



Time is of course the missing factor from that chart. The charts just assume you reach equilibrium, which you have to judge yourself.  As you probably know from kegging, if you do a set and forget on your keg, after a week it's nearly (but not quite) there, and after 2 it's pretty well right.

With your example, if you want to achieve 7.2 psi at 2 degrees after your crash, you need to follow that column down to your temperature before the crash and achieve that stable pressure in your fermenter first. If it's 20 degrees like you say, you need 25.1 psi. 

I couldn't comment on your quick-force-carb method as there would be too many variables, but if that works for you then keep doing it. But the good thing with a pressure ferment is that the carbonation process is faster because the CO2 is being created all throughout the wort on a micro level already, i.e. you don't have to force it in like you would for an uncarbonated beer, and the interface area between gas and liquid is almost infinite, rather than just the liquid surface as it is in a force carb situation.

And because you're fermenting, you have time on your side to achieve the pressure you want because you're waiting for the yeast to work anyway.

I usually ferment around the 10psi mark and 18 degrees C, and then ramp the temperature up to low 20's for a d rest for a few days. I often D-rest for around the 3 days / 96 hours as you've suggested and the gauge goes around to the 20psi mark (which I estimate as being near the second screw on my keg-king gauge). I then then crash for at least 24 hours and it generally settles around the 10 to 12psi mark, which is pretty close to where I want it.


----------



## Dave70

The reference to force carbing was only to regular fermented beer. What I was getting at was basically just using numbers I know work and applying that to this carbing up / pressure fermenting deal. 
Indecently, I dont think 300 x 24 hours is a great way to go. Its gets you there, but as others seem to have noted here, the longer, gently does it natural method seems to produce a better result.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Dave70 said:


> The reference to force carbing was only to regular fermented beer. What I was getting at was basically just using numbers I know work and applying that to this carbing up / pressure fermenting deal.
> Indecently, I dont think 300 x 24 hours is a great way to go. Its gets you there, but as others seem to have noted here, the longer, gently does it natural method seems to produce a better result.



Totally agree, and because I'm impatient, that's one of the biggest things I like pressure ferment because it happens as you ferment and you can drink straight away if you want.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Dave70 said:


> The reference to force carbing was only to regular fermented beer. What I was getting at was basically just using numbers I know work and applying that to this carbing up / pressure fermenting deal.
> Indecently, I dont think 300 x 24 hours is a great way to go. Its gets you there, but as others seem to have noted here, the longer, gently does it natural method seems to produce a better result.


A lot of information on Wiley online library (brewing institute) Pressure Fermenting, discussing lager  fermentation, I am happy with what I have read on this thread and excited to give my ghetto low pressure fermentation a go first, applies only to ale yeasts. This method can save me money, I always go for secondary ferment and transferring the beer to secondary I blanket the beer being transferred, with this method I can capture the co2 and transfer without using my gas bottle, anything left over I can capture in a camping deflatable water container and use with my hand pump. The lagers, according to info gleaned from above link 26 psi pressure for lagers at around 16 degrees C for finishing quicker, ale yeast doesn't like the pressure.
I tested a cube today on my compressor took it up to 30 psi so a cube is alright for the pressure range, it was a heavy duty dangerous goods cube, $9.00 for a 25 litre so reasonable saving there.
This is how I have set mine up for the ales, on hindsight I will add another JG tap and JG non return that way if needed when transferring beer using the 2 bottom taps I can bring the co2 back into the original fermentation vessel.


----------



## bradsbrew

I wouldn't trust those taps. Did you try the 30 psi with liquid or just air. I would assume 20L(weight) of carbing beer and 26 psi of pressure would be different to just air pressure?


----------



## Dan Pratt

id be trying it with water for correct pressure rating. 

I think that a cube would hold close to 10psi before the tap/thread gave way which means if it does hold that you could run at 5+ psi for ales which is what Im doing with the fermentasaurus


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The pressure is the same whether it be fluid or air, 30 psi air pressure is the same as 30 psi water pressure, the idea is to let the wort naturally ferment in the primary (very low pressure) and the secondary would not come close to the 30 psi pressure as I want to try serving straight from the secondary so the pressure is minimal. The vacuum created will be taken up by the co2 captured from the ferment so the beer never comes into contact with any oxygen whatsoever after the pitching of the yeast. 
This is what I do with the hand pump, the vacuum is taken up with the co2 in the collapsible water pitcher.


----------



## Dave70

bradsbrew said:


> I wouldn't trust those taps. Did you try the 30 psi with liquid or just air. I would assume 20L(weight) of carbing beer and 26 psi of pressure would be different to just air pressure?



That was my first concern also seeing how many of the ******* things have leaked around the Plasticine like threads of the cube on me. But on second thoughts, I dont think there surface area of the tap is large enough to reasonably cause a problem. Thats my guess anyway. I dunno. There's so much I dont know about the principles of pressure vessel design, and letters that somehow equal equal numbers when divided by the square of x/y - f and multiplied by..bla..blaaa..bla..blaa..and so on..


----------



## pcqypcqy

wide eyed and legless said:


> A lot of information on Wiley online library (brewing institute) Pressure Fermenting, discussing lager  fermentation, I am happy with what I have read on this thread and excited to give my ghetto low pressure fermentation a go first, applies only to ale yeasts. This method can save me money, I always go for secondary ferment and transferring the beer to secondary I blanket the beer being transferred, with this method I can capture the co2 and transfer without using my gas bottle, anything left over I can capture in a camping deflatable water container and use with my hand pump. The lagers, according to info gleaned from above link 26 psi pressure for lagers at around 16 degrees C for finishing quicker, ale yeast doesn't like the pressure.
> I tested a cube today on my compressor took it up to 30 psi so a cube is alright for the pressure range, it was a heavy duty dangerous goods cube, $9.00 for a 25 litre so reasonable saving there.
> This is how I have set mine up for the ales, on hindsight I will add another JG tap and JG non return that way if needed when transferring beer using the 2 bottom taps I can bring the co2 back into the original fermentation vessel.
> View attachment 110264



That's some top quality science right there.

I've been wondering when someone will start selling plastic corny's, this might be the start of some ghetto versions.


----------



## pirateagenda

pcqypcqy said:


> That's some top quality science right there.
> 
> I've been wondering when someone will start selling plastic corny's, this might be the start of some ghetto versions.



Bulk Buy??

http://www.oxebar.com.au/Downloads/Kegasaurus Pricing.pdf


----------



## pcqypcqy

pirateagenda said:


> Bulk Buy??
> 
> http://www.oxebar.com.au/Downloads/Kegasaurus Pricing.pdf



I had seen those a while ago but forgotten about it. Not sure what couplers they use though, whether they're corny style or commercial keg spears.

Still, not a bad way to get into kegging if it's cheap. It says single use but you could probably get a reasonable lifetime out of them in a homebrew setting


----------



## pirateagenda

the have an s-spear.... so probably not very economical by the time you get ball lock adaptors etc.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I spend a lot of time on Alibaba these caught my attention, this price and image is not the manufacturer, so pricey compared to the manufacturers price but the manufacturer has a couple of thousand minimum order.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...ml?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.8.718a1ce9gvLo1d


----------



## pirateagenda

wide eyed and legless said:


> I spend a lot of time on Alibaba these caught my attention, this price and image is not the manufacturer, so pricey compared to the manufacturers price but the manufacturer has a couple of thousand minimum order.
> https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...ml?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.8.718a1ce9gvLo1d



These would be great with ball locks instead of d and s stems. Could put weldless ball locks in ... but by the time you do that, again... you might as well by a used corny for $75


----------



## S.E

bradsbrew said:


> I wouldn't trust those taps. Did you try the 30 psi with liquid or just air. I would assume 20L(weight) of carbing beer and 26 psi of pressure would be different to just air pressure?



Cube taps have never given me any trouble in ten years of pressure fermenting in cubes. I was initially worried that the taps would be the weakest point and changed them regularly. 

I don’t think I have changed a tap for about two years now. I pull them apart to clean after each use and the little lug that holds them together is so worn on some that they can be pulled apart by hand really easily but still don’t pop out under fermenting pressure.

I ferment up to about 20 PSI, plenty pictures and info on this in the Carbing in a cube thread


----------



## Lionman

Could something like this be used as a PRV?

https://www.banggood.com/AR2000-Air...mmds=detail-left-hotproducts&cur_warehouse=CN


----------



## malt junkie

Lionman said:


> Could something like this be used as a PRV?
> 
> https://www.banggood.com/AR2000-Air...mmds=detail-left-hotproducts&cur_warehouse=CN


yep been done before with that set up.


----------



## peteru

I don't see how. It's just a regulator. The high pressure side is unregulated, the low pressure side sits at the desired pressure. Could be used as a secondary regulator if you want to run CO2 into kegs at different pressures.


----------



## malt junkie

peteru said:


> I don't see how. It's just a regulator. The high pressure side is unregulated, the low pressure side sits at the desired pressure. Could be used as a secondary regulator if you want to run CO2 into kegs at different pressures.


The one he has linked is the AR2000 which is a pressure relief valve. One of the guy in the original pressure fermenting thread was using exactl;y this unit.


----------



## rossbaker

Hey guys, I'm about to ferment a weizen with Wlp351. Has anyone used this yeast under pressure? Or should I swap the spunding valve for a blow off? I like a nice estery weizen...


----------



## pcqypcqy

rossbaker said:


> Hey guys, I'm about to ferment a weizen with Wlp351. Has anyone used this yeast under pressure? Or should I swap the spunding valve for a blow off? I like a nice estery weizen...



I haven't used that yeast in particular,but generally I find everything seems to benefit from 5 to 10 psi during the first few days.


----------



## Mardoo

Yep. If I want ester production I keep pressure between 5 and 8 psi.


----------



## malt junkie

Still waiting for spundings though I have a feeling they'll arrive mid week so I've got some yeast about to go on the plate WLP 072 French Ale, wish me luck! I also need to reinforce the shelf in the fridge, a nice little job for the morning.


----------



## Dave70

_And they're off!!_
I felt slightly deflated this morning thinking the needle hadn't shifted until I popped on my focals and realized it was stuck hard against the pin, and only twelve hours since pitching.
I also learned that a WLP002 starter is _supposed_ to look like cottage cheese and it wasn't a crook batch.
Great success! (though there is something slightly wrong with this picture..)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Pressure to high?


----------



## cliffo

Black disconnect?


----------



## mtb

No temp control


----------



## Midnight Brew

White Teflon tape..... relax it works, I’d be putting that gauge on the gas not the beer.


----------



## Maheel

no toes / safety thongs / dressing gown in the pic ?


----------



## Maheel

i just picked up 2 X 23L myttons / Schweppes kegs $50 each to increase my head space for some more pressure kegmenter options 

# the lifesaver / post seals on the posts were stuffed but CO2 regulator -> gas bottle seals fit !!
it let me get them cleaned out and pressure tested


----------



## malt junkie

Maheel said:


> i just picked up 2 X 23L myttons / Schweppes kegs $50 each to increase my head space for some more pressure kegmenter options
> 
> # the lifesaver / post seals on the posts were stuffed but CO2 regulator -> gas bottle seals fit !!
> it let me get them cleaned out and pressure tested


Several places to get kits for these kegs, and prolly best to go right through the things if your fermenting in them.


----------



## Maheel

malt junkie said:


> Several places to get kits for these kegs, and prolly best to go right through the things if your fermenting in them.



agreed and have ordered the right seals 
i had everything else except the LS post seals and wanted to pressure test for holes 
random searching the shed found a temp fitting seal


----------



## Hpal

Gloveski said:


> Just thought I would add to this regarding ales . Done my first ale pressure fermented an S&W pacific ale clone (brewmans recipe) . I transferred off cake and dry hoped 2 days at 15.5 and the 2 days at 2 and then transferred again to serving keg . This ended up the best hop aroma and taste I have had yet .
> 
> I had issues transferring to serving keg as my gas bottle is all but empty so had to use racking cane . I am not sure if it's because I put the hops in naked or the hopping was done off the yeast cake and under pressure . Or the dry hop was a mixture of warm and cold temps But it's just night and day to what I have dry hopped before .
> I think it could be even be the 0 minute addition aroma/flavour is not being lost when pressure fermenting also , not sure


I've recently brewed this as well, its an amazing beer. Pressure fermented and i put the dry hops in first thing and left them in because I don't like to open the fermenter and it will ferment out in maybe 4 or 5 days anyway. One of the best beers I've made, was drinking it in 8 days


----------



## Dave70

wide eyed and legless said:


> Pressure to high?


No!



cliffo said:


> Black disconnect?


Yes! Clearly you're paying closer attention than me when I clicked 'add to cart'.



mtb said:


> No temp control


Sort of. The laundry is a fairly consistent 20 deg.



Midnight Brew said:


> White Teflon tape..... relax it works, I’d be putting that gauge on the gas not the beer.


Yeah, the correct part is somewhere in express post.



Maheel said:


> no toes / safety thongs / dressing gown in the pic ?


No sweat, I'm wearing hi-viz undies.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Couldn't wait for my spunding valves to arrive,pitched yeast in a special bitter with just a dash of oxygen at 2 pm, 10 pm vented the secondary cube so no air left in both cubes. At 6.15 am, both tanks decidedly out of shape and gauge reading 10 psi, a flaw I did think of was the NRV for the pressure in the fermenting vessel to push gas through the NRV it has to be greater than in the secondary.
I really wanted to keep the fermentation below 5 psi but what's done is done just hope everything turns out OK, I will be waitng for my PRV's before I do my next brew. Really didn't expect such a large volume of co2 in such a short space of time.


----------



## Dave70

Careful..


----------



## Mardoo

wide eyed and legless said:


> Really didn't expect such a large volume of co2 in such a short space of time.


It's astonishing how much is produced. Pressure fermenting has given me a whole other level of amazement/appreciation for yeast.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I know I will be doing a lot more reading about yeast, how a minuscule single cell organism can fill up a 25 +(3) litre head space plus 7 litres of head space above the wort and take it to 10 psi  is incredible. After half an hour I went back after releasing the pressure and another gush of co2 came out, have left the valve just cracked open, really hope my PRV's come today.


----------



## markp

Ok guys been reading through this thread and the answer to my question is probably somewhere but I must have missed it.
Just about to do my first pressure ferment, I have a fermentasaurus and am going to do an ipa what pressure should I set the prv for and should I do the whole ferment at the same pressure ? I would like it to naturally carbonate in the process. Any help hints or tips would be much appreciated. 
Cheers in advance. 
Mark.


----------



## rude

Try 5 to 10 psi for the main duration then when there is a few gravity points left up it to 30 psi
Record youre results

If you dont get to the 30psi relax have a homebrew chill transfer & top up carb with youre co2
Presuming you keg


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Dan says in his post (number 342) 5 psi for ales in his fermentasaurus which I would go along with, I have read quite a bit about it on other sites and it seems to come in around 2 to 5 psi. I can't find any scientific evidence to back it up, as nobody seems to have done any work on ale yeast and pressure. Except to say it doesn't work on ale yeast like it does with lager yeast, where there is plenty written about temperature and pressure for lager.


----------



## Mardoo

If you want esters from the yeast keep it below 8psi. If you want less esters, keep it above 15psi. If you’re harvesting yeast, don’t go above 30psi. 

Regarding carbing, I don’t have my results in that regard dialled in yet. At the moment I’m leaning towards setting the spunding valve a few psi above the pressure you need in order to carb to the desired carb level at fermentation temperature. Set to that point after the first three days of fermentation. I’m getting inconsistent results carbing in the fermenter and need to work out why. It’s likely I’ll ferment to the end at carbonation pressure and then immediately transfer for finishing with forced carbonation. I haven’t given up yet though


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

wide eyed and legless said:


> I can't find any scientific evidence to back it up, as nobody seems to have done any work on ale yeast and pressure. Except to say it doesn't work on ale yeast like it does with lager yeast, where there is plenty written about temperature and pressure for lager.



It is known that the major effect of pressure is due to the increase in CO2 concentration.

As a first cut then, we could apply the known equation for [CO2] vs temperature and pressure to come up with an equivalence

P1 = P2 . e^ (2617.25 * (1 / T2 - 1 / T1)).

Note that P and T are absolute values in SI units, so a ferment termperature of 20 oC would be entered as 293.15 oK and a top pressure of 0 kPa would be entered as 101.3 kPa.


----------



## Dave70

markp said:


> Ok guys been reading through this thread and the answer to my question is probably somewhere but I must have missed it.
> Just about to do my first pressure ferment, I have a fermentasaurus and am going to do an ipa what pressure should I set the prv for and should I do the whole ferment at the same pressure ? I would like it to naturally carbonate in the process. Any help hints or tips would be much appreciated.
> Cheers in advance.
> Mark.



Here's a handy chart that was referenced earlier in regard to carbonation. 
http://kegking.com.au/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/KEGKING-Set-Forget-CO2-Carbonation-Chart.png

I'm actually considering running the ferment out then gassing up a PET and force injecting the appropriate amount of sugaz dissolved in a little boiled water and bulk priming if the ferment doesn't give me the bubbles I need. 
But from memory I think that will take a couple of weeks. So more likely will crack sooner, give in and force carb. 

Hopefully your spunding valve will prove more accurate than mine that seems as precise as a two bob watch, which really doesn't help when trying to predict CO2 absobsion.


----------



## bradsbrew

Dave70 said:


> Hopefully your spunding valve will prove more accurate than mine that seems as precise as a two bob watch, which really doesn't help when trying to predict CO2 absobsion.


Have you tried pressurising a PET with a carb cap up to 10psi (or whatever pressure you want), then setting your spunding to the PET bottle?


----------



## markp

Thanks for your comments guys, will give it a crack at the sub 5-6psi and ramp up to carbonation pressures late in the fermentation and see what happens for me. 
Cheers
Mark


----------



## Dave70

bradsbrew said:


> Have you tried pressurising a PET with a carb cap up to 10psi (or whatever pressure you want), then setting your spunding to the PET bottle?



No. But I've let the pressure drop back to 10 psi in the keg, or near enough until the hissing stops. Then after a while, up she goes. You can actually jiggle the pin from side to side and the thing will release pressure, so its not the most precision of instruments. Not loosing any sleep over it. Once the ferment is out of the way I'll dismantle and sort it. I'm tipping it will be a simple fix. 

While I've got you, who did you buy your fermentasaurus through? Would you recommend them? I think one of those jiggers is the best fit for me.


----------



## S.E

wide eyed and legless said:


> Couldn't wait for my spunding valves to arrive,pitched yeast in a special bitter with just a dash of oxygen at 2 pm, 10 pm vented the secondary cube so no air left in both cubes. At 6.15 am, both tanks decidedly out of shape and gauge reading 10 psi, a flaw I did think of was the NRV for the pressure in the fermenting vessel to push gas through the NRV it has to be greater than in the secondary.
> I really wanted to keep the fermentation below 5 psi but what's done is done just hope everything turns out OK, I will be waitng for my PRV's before I do my next brew. Really didn't expect such a large volume of co2 in such a short space of time.
> View attachment 110361



Bloody hell WEAL, that’s taking carbing in a cube to a whole new level

I have come up with a simple DIY PRV that could be used on cubes (or Kegs for that matter) and keep them at a more or less constant pressure but have posted it over here on the https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/carbing-conditioning-in-a-cube-before-keg.70056/ thread to avoid taking this one off topic.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

To be honest Sean I didn't expect that sort of pressure, I have now cracked and left open the JG valve so pressure is at atmosphere, what I intend to do is when I transfer to secondary, or when ready to carb up. Fill the empty primary vessel with mains water which is around 70 psi so I can naturally carb using water pressure to vacate the co2 from the primary to the secondary, obviously not to 70 psi but to a lower pressure.


----------



## bradsbrew

Dave70 said:


> No. But I've let the pressure drop back to 10 psi in the keg, or near enough until the hissing stops. Then after a while, up she goes. You can actually jiggle the pin from side to side and the thing will release pressure, so its not the most precision of instruments. Not loosing any sleep over it. Once the ferment is out of the way I'll dismantle and sort it. I'm tipping it will be a simple fix.
> 
> While I've got you, who did you buy your fermentasaurus through? Would you recommend them? I think one of those jiggers is the best fit for me.


I grabbed mine from Hoppy Days, Steve is great, tad on the fugly side though. The only piece of KK equipment I would 100% recomend.


----------



## mtb

I'm sure Steve is beautiful on the inside.


----------



## malt junkie

My spundings arrived from the states this arvo. Because I'm a lazy git my big 1v still needs attention, so still Biab in the urn. SWMBO is away with our 7yo for the next week and I need some pales for xmas I want em clean and fast so 20c @ 18psi in kegmenters. Now just to sort out what exactly to brew, a SMASH is certainly on the cards.


----------



## Digga

No bulk buy MJ?


----------



## malt junkie

Have tried a few ways to contact Bobby with no luck could be he is flat out with the silly season. And while buying 20 odd off the website is cheaper than one or 2 at a time, the saving isn't big enough to cover reposting locally. Will try again in the new year, I'll also give you a run down on how the two I got perform.

MJ


----------



## S.E

wide eyed and legless said:


> To be honest Sean I didn't expect that sort of pressure



I was a bit surprised that your cubes had swollen so much and the gauge was only showing 10psi.

I have tested my shorter 17L cubes and they take around 20psi before they balloon like that. I also use 25L cubes but have never tested them. I have noticed they tend to stretch and balloon at the top far more than the shorter 17L ones though.

If you try the DIY elastic band PRV on the bit of gas line between your tap and the red cap on the cube in your picture above you should be able hold pressure at around 5psi as you wanted.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I will try that with the rubber band, the gauge was only a cheap one, still waiting for my PRV's and 'proper' gauges, according to the tracking due next week


----------



## Hpal

I am currently pressure fermenting a lager, it's at about 20psi and 10 degrees, I pitched a starter of yeast from another batch and oxygenated the wort. That was 6 days ago and it's gone from 1.045 to 1.016 in that time and tastes clean as and is carbed. Pressure ferments rock.


----------



## Dave70

Hpal said:


> I am currently pressure fermenting a lager, it's at about 20psi and 10 degrees, I pitched a starter of yeast from another batch and oxygenated the wort. That was 6 days ago and it's gone from 1.045 to 1.016 in that time and tastes clean as and is carbed. Pressure ferments rock.



Yep. Pulled a sample from mine last might. Even from the bottom of the tank the sample came out clean (relatively) and at FG in five days. Definitely has that 'craft beer' aroma going on and tasted fine hot, flat and straight from the keg.
Cant wait to share it around.
Its truly rekindled my interest in the sport and encouraged a fresh wave of spending. **** you MasterCard, take _that!_


----------



## pcqypcqy

wide eyed and legless said:


> Couldn't wait for my spunding valves to arrive,pitched yeast in a special bitter with just a dash of oxygen at 2 pm, 10 pm vented the secondary cube so no air left in both cubes. At 6.15 am, both tanks decidedly out of shape and gauge reading 10 psi, a flaw I did think of was the NRV for the pressure in the fermenting vessel to push gas through the NRV it has to be greater than in the secondary.
> I really wanted to keep the fermentation below 5 psi but what's done is done just hope everything turns out OK, I will be waitng for my PRV's before I do my next brew. Really didn't expect such a large volume of co2 in such a short space of time.
> View attachment 110361



mmmm, bulgy.


----------



## pcqypcqy

Dave70 said:


> No. But I've let the pressure drop back to 10 psi in the keg, or near enough until the hissing stops. Then after a while, up she goes. You can actually jiggle the pin from side to side and the thing will release pressure, so its not the most precision of instruments. Not loosing any sleep over it. Once the ferment is out of the way I'll dismantle and sort it. I'm tipping it will be a simple fix.
> 
> While I've got you, who did you buy your fermentasaurus through? Would you recommend them? I think one of those jiggers is the best fit for me.



Yeah, that wiggle is the bane of most our existences. On mine it can be the difference between 5 and 20 psi.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Got my gauges today, 0-30 psi, worth paying the extra to get an accurate reading. 
Checked my hydrometer readings, transfer to secondary tomorrow only a couple of points left to go, as for CO2 production it comes in around 1.6 kg for a 20 litre batch so that is a lot of CO2 , bit of a carbon boot print there.


----------



## pcqypcqy

wide eyed and legless said:


> Got my gauges today, 0-30 psi, worth paying the extra to get an accurate reading.
> Checked my hydrometer readings, transfer to secondary tomorrow only a couple of points left to go, as for CO2 production it comes in around 1.6 kg for a 20 litre batch so that is a lot of CO2 , bit of a carbon boot print there.



Did you post a link to the gauges you got? I wouldn't mind upgrading mine.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I couldn't wait till next week, had a good look around, what I found were the cheapies come no where near to accuracy until around 25 psi,went to Blackwoods and they came in at $25 each for the 30 psi gauge, I didn't bother with their accurate PRV that was $270!

Good article here about carbonation and the reason there is a taste difference between a CO2 bottle carbed beer and a natural carbed beer.
http://www.draughtquality.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Carbonation_PH-Final_1.pdf


----------



## rossbaker

Hi guys, I'm going to be brewing a Samiclaus clone for Christmas. For those not in the know, that is essentially a massive dopplebock, which should come in at 1.140 sg (not a typo). How do you think this will go under pressure? 

Given it is designed to be stored for a long time, I love the idea of keeping out all o2, but I also know the ferment will be challenging and I'm worried that pressure will put a strain on the already hard working yeast.


----------



## Hpal

It doesn't have to be a great amount of pressure, just do it an 5-10psi and I'm sure there would be no ill effects.


----------



## malt junkie

rossbaker said:


> Hi guys, I'm going to be brewing a Samiclaus clone for Christmas. For those not in the know, that is essentially a massive dopplebock, which should come in at 1.140 sg (not a typo). How do you think this will go under pressure?
> 
> Given it is designed to be stored for a long time, I love the idea of keeping out all o2, but I also know the ferment will be challenging and I'm worried that pressure will put a strain on the already hard working yeast.


When doing beers of this magnitude, multiple health yeast cakes are required, if you have multiple pressure ferment vessels or are able to rack off used yeast and add fresh yeast in the same vessel.


----------



## rossbaker

I'll be using Zurich lager yeast which is designed for this kind of gravity, but I was thinking of over building the starter, keeping some aside then culturing that up and adding it if needed to keep the ferment going. It will be a 15l batch and the fv will just be a corny so it should be easy enough to rack to a second vessel if I need to use more yeast. Will go with low pressure, good advice.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

rossbaker said:


> I'll be using Zurich lager yeast which is designed for this kind of gravity, but I was thinking of over building the starter, keeping some aside then culturing that up and adding it if needed to keep the ferment going. It will be a 15l batch and the fv will just be a corny so it should be easy enough to rack to a second vessel if I need to use more yeast. Will go with low pressure, good advice.


If you are pressure fermenting you have to choose your yeast carefully, White Labs have cultured a special Lager yeast for pressure fermenting WLP 925, keeping pressure under 1 bar


----------



## malt junkie

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you are pressure fermenting you have to choose your yeast carefully, White Labs have cultured a special Lager yeast for pressure fermenting WLP 925, keeping pressure under 1 bar


I know there is a popular belief that yeast can suffer detrimental effects under pressure. But follow me for a minute here.
Lets take a small/medium craft brewer like Wayward for instance Brew length of 40HL, FVs of 40 and 80HL. Now for every vertical meter of height water will exert 10KPA of static pressure(the gravity of wort would change this but not dramatically), most of Wayward's FVs are near 4m tall, so any lager they produce has 40kpa of static pressure on the yeast where they are working.
Waywards beers taste fine to me. Now if you then think about the static pressure in the vessels CUB, Lion, or even Coopers are using.....


----------



## Mardoo

The research I've seen says that yeast health starts to suffer above 200 kPa/30 psi/2.1 bar. That's part of why large commercial breweries with said tall fermenters use such high pitching rates. Re-pitching health starts to suffer above 30psi as well, so again, high initial pitch rates help ameliorate that.

Has anyone seen any information on pressure rates and phenol production? I'm wondering about using Belgian yeasts under pressure. I'm doing some saisons soon. I've seen plenty of work on esters and fermentation, but don't recall seeing any on phenols.


----------



## pcqypcqy

malt junkie said:


> I know there is a popular belief that yeast can suffer detrimental effects under pressure. But follow me for a minute here.
> Lets take a small/medium craft brewer like Wayward for instance Brew length of 40HL, FVs of 40 and 80HL. Now for every vertical meter of height water will exert 10KPA of static pressure(the gravity of wort would change this but not dramatically), most of Wayward's FVs are near 4m tall, so any lager they produce has 40kpa of static pressure on the yeast where they are working.
> Waywards beers taste fine to me. Now if you then think about the static pressure in the vessels CUB, Lion, or even Coopers are using.....



40kPa is about 6psi, which is the number I've seen around the place quite a bit as well. I think the commercial guys aren't necessarily aiming to do a pressure ferment like we do, but are naturally achieving some pressure on the wort and yeast due to their tanks. An offshoot of this is that it does provide some benefits for lagers, so probably before the research was done, brewers realised that if they used vertical tanks of a certain height to ferment in, lagers were easier/quicker to produce.

A lot of people talk about the 30psi limit. For reference, this is about 200kpa, which is about 20m of static water head. I imagine even the big boys would be stopping short of this height as it gets impractical - the structure required to support that is getting significant.


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## malt junkie

Mardoo said:


> The research I've seen says that yeast health starts to suffer above 200 kPa/30 psi/2.1 bar. That's part of why large commercial breweries with said tall fermenters use such high pitching rates. Re-pitching health starts to suffer above 30psi as well, so again, high initial pitch rates help ameliorate that.
> 
> Has anyone seen any information on pressure rates and phenol production? I'm wondering about using Belgian yeasts under pressure. I'm doing some saisons soon. I've seen plenty of work on esters and fermentation, but don't recall seeing any on phenols.


There was some good info linked in the earlier pressure ferment threads that charted time/gravity/ester formation/diacetyl levels during pressure ferment. There were also some papers linked that got right down into the why and how of what pressure was doing. Including the damage to yeast above 30psi (cell wall damage), if I get the chance I'll chase it down this arv' but the search function may well again be my nemesis.


----------



## Mardoo

Yep. I’ve read about 15 studies on the question. I need to rearrange my links listings as it’s very hard for me to find them these days. I know I’ve linked some somewhere on the site, but am unsure where.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

malt junkie said:


> I know there is a popular belief that yeast can suffer detrimental effects under pressure. But follow me for a minute here.
> Lets take a small/medium craft brewer like Wayward for instance Brew length of 40HL, FVs of 40 and 80HL. Now for every vertical meter of height water will exert 10KPA of static pressure(the gravity of wort would change this but not dramatically), most of Wayward's FVs are near 4m tall, so any lager they produce has 40kpa of static pressure on the yeast where they are working.
> Waywards beers taste fine to me. Now if you then think about the static pressure in the vessels CUB, Lion, or even Coopers are using.....


What you are talking about there is hydro static pressure which the yeast can tolerate up to around 10MPa, CO2 pressure is around 50KPa 


Stationary phase yeast cells exhibit an increased resistance to high hydrostatic pressure
compared to exponential phase cells. Research studies indicated the profound cellular changes
triggered by high pressure stress, which are maintained even after the stress has ended. For
example, in yeast cells pressurized at 50MPa for 30 min. cellular recovery appears only after
120min. Comparing yeast cell response to high pressure with the one after thermal stress
(30min at 40ºC) showed that the pressure stressed cells need a longer period of time for
recovering after stress (37). Recent studies indicated an advantage of high pressure stress for
alcoholic fermentation: at 10 MPa the fermentation of glucose to ethanol by Saccharomyces
cerevisiae proceeded three times faster and gave a slightly increased yield when compared
with the same fermentation at ambient pressure (38). Resistance to high hydrostatic pressure
can be attained either by a moderate pressure treatment or by exposure to moderate thermal
shock. Most probably, high pressure tolerance results from a combination between membrane
fluidity preservation (rich in cholesterol) and trehalose accumulation.
High hydrostatic pressure stress in the brewing industry
Most yeast resist to hydrostatic pressures stress, but the brewing yeast strains cannot
withstand hydrostatic pressures higher than 10MPa and gaseous pressure up to 50kPa. The
simultaneous effect of high gaseous pressure and ethanol stress increase the negative effects
upon brewing yeast cells. High gaseous pressure negatively affects cellular membrane
integrity and cellular division cycle, which further influences the aroma of the final product,
beer

_Overview on Brewing Yeast Stress Factors (PDF Download Available)_. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258323942_Overview_on_Brewing_Yeast_Stress_Factors [accessed Dec 15 2017].


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## Dave70

pcqypcqy said:


> Yeah, that wiggle is the bane of most our existences. On mine it can be the difference between 5 and 20 psi.





wide eyed and legless said:


> I couldn't wait till next week, had a good look around, what I found were the cheapies come no where near to accuracy until around 25 psi,went to Blackwoods and they came in at $25 each for the 30 psi gauge, I didn't bother with their accurate PRV that was $270!
> 
> Good article here about carbonation and the reason there is a taste difference between a CO2 bottle carbed beer and a natural carbed beer.
> http://www.draughtquality.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Carbonation_PH-Final_1.pdf



Cool, I think I've got one of those Zahm devices tucked away in my wardrobe somewhere..


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## wide eyed and legless

You've got a penis pump with a gauge? What pressure you going to!


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## Dave70

wide eyed and legless said:


> You've got a penis pump with a gauge? What pressure you going to!



It is, in fact, supposed to a vacuum gauge, not *pressure. Which may explain my somewhat disappointing results. 

*_Made in PRC_.


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## rossbaker

Well the Zurich lager yeast has arrived today so I'll start building the starter up with that. I'm still contemplating swapping the spunding valve for a blow off to let this one breath for the first few days. Never done a beer this big.


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## Coldspace

rossbaker said:


> Hi guys, I'm going to be brewing a Samiclaus clone for Christmas. For those not in the know, that is essentially a massive dopplebock, which should come in at 1.140 sg (not a typo). How do you think this will go under pressure?
> 
> Given it is designed to be stored for a long time, I love the idea of keeping out all o2, but I also know the ferment will be challenging and I'm worried that pressure will put a strain on the already hard working yeast.


Christmas 2018, spunding valve deff on the blow off keg in post , with jumper lead on gas post of primary and liquid of blow of keg, pressure just run at 10-14 psi, all other constraints at normal , my dopplebocks from end of last summer at pressure fermented are just coming into their own last couple of months although they weren't this big, good luck.
Did 2x 40 ltr batches aged in 4 cornies , all turned out great, German friend was out few months ago, we had a blinder night on one corny , he said, " this reminds me of home"
Best feed back I've got from brewing piss.

Cheers


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## malt junkie

wide eyed and legless said:


> You've got a penis pump with a gauge? What pressure you going to!


Not as bad as building a 1km tall FV 10mpa??? When Inbev truly do take over the maybe....


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## wide eyed and legless

There are some good posts on


rossbaker said:


> Well the Zurich lager yeast has arrived today so I'll start building the starter up with that. I'm still contemplating swapping the spunding valve for a blow off to let this one breath for the first few days. Never done a beer this big.


Thats a big beer Ross, you will need a big starter, even if it takes a few days to make it, I wouldn't be putting any CO2 pressure on it at all until you have 2 or 3 degrees plato left to go then capture the CO2 to carb the lager with. Big beers take time, and time before you can start to drink them, so there is no rush.


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## rossbaker

wide eyed and legless said:


> There are some good posts on
> 
> Thats a big beer Ross, you will need a big starter, even if it takes a few days to make it, I wouldn't be putting any CO2 pressure on it at all until you have 2 or 3 degrees plato left to go then capture the CO2 to carb the lager with. Big beers take time, and time before you can start to drink them, so there is no rush.



Good advice, cheers.


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## wide eyed and legless

Transferred my beer to secondary on Friday arvo, lost a couple of points on final gravity which I put down to the 10 psi pressure on the first day of fermentation. Apart from that extremely happy with the out come, beer has cleared nicely (not even cold crashed yet) and got carbonation, (enough for an English bitter) Making a manifold now so I can ferment 4 or 5 brews at the same time using the one PRV
and gauge.



Bladder slowly filling with CO2 (on the right)


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## Mardoo

wide eyed and legless said:


> Making a manifold now so I can ferment 4 or 5 brews at the same time using the one PRV and gauge.


I like the manifold idea! That hasn't yet occurred to me. Can you post pics as/after you build it?


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## pcqypcqy

@benken25 cube fermenting as discussed yesterday


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## wide eyed and legless

Mardoo said:


> I like the manifold idea! That hasn't yet occurred to me. Can you post pics as/after you build it?


Will do mardoo, my PRV is from your home country so I have to get a 1/4 NPT tap which I will get tomorrow.


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## wide eyed and legless

Further on what I have read, my main concerns are of the stripping of esters and the viability of the yeast from the pressurised fermentation, dissolved CO2 is BAD. Anecdotal evidence is never a good reason for going along with something that looks like it could be a good technique, pressurised fermentation is very good as long as it's administered almost at the death knoll of the fermentation.
From now on this is the route I will take, (applying the pressure towards the end of fermentation) and gleaning the benefit of free and pure CO2 .
Fast pressurised ferments aren't for home brewers, reason being we don't or can't agitate the wort to keep the yeast in suspension, we could re divert the CO2 produced to lift the settled yeast off the bottom of the fermenter, but that is going to be as good as it gets.
All the empirical evidence I have read there is nothing which endorses pressure fermenting, sure they have done the research for the big commercials allowing them to produce a lager in half the time by over pitching, specialised yeast strains, and agitation of the wort to keep the yeast in suspension.
Brewers are trying different ways to prevent dissolved CO2 being in the wort, (hence the resurgence of open fermentation) and here we are purposely putting it in. Put it in by all means but leave it till a couple of degrees plato to go.
Just my opinion after reading a lot of material, especially material regarding dissolved CO2 during fermetation. A lot of it is over the head of this home brewer, but I think I manage to get the gist of it, here is a blog from a craft brewer. If you are interested in reading the scientific views just google effects of dissolved CO2 during fermentation of beer.
https://wildflowerbeer.com/blogs/blog/process-e1-primary-fermentation-geometry


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## Coldspace

You can read, you can do.

I've done countless pressure lagers, all turned out spectacular.

Latest one, was a simple Aussie style, 45 ltrs, o2, pitched 5 ltr decanted stepped starter s189, ran at 18 degrees @14 psi ,3 days from 1048 to 1012, cranked up to 20, shut spunding down, leave for 3 days to carb up and finish off at 1008.
Biofine, cc for 1 week. Although had several schooners after 3 days straight off the kegmenter , so 9 days from pitch.
Guzzling great, clear Aussie lager in 2 weeks.

Clean as a whistle.

Does work


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## Dan Pratt

Hi Wide Eyed, 

I just had a read through that link and what I got from that was mainly aimed at yeast driven beers, esters profiled beers which benefit from fermentation without the pressure to get the full formation of esters. As we understand the pressure prevents the esters forming so for the Belgian styles and English ales avoiding that pressure during fermentation makes sense. 

I would not be applying that same theory into beers which are malt driven or hop forward styles, the pressure we can achieve is, I think creating a cleaner final beer "ester free" , which enable the true ingredients to pull through and shine, like the pils malt on a lager or the distinct hop aromas on a ale.


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## wide eyed and legless

I am not trying to pour cold water on pressurised fermentation, if it was so good why aren't the craft brewers embracing it, I would have liked to have found some scientific evidence for it, but it was all to the contrary. 25% of beer drinkers cannot detect VDK's add a load of hops to that percentage and it will rise add to that a cold serve of 2 or 3 degrees and then you are close to a 100%.

Dan I was going to apply it to a lager, but as I said what the big commercials are doing are using huge starters of particular yeasts, stirring the yeast to keep it in suspension things that we can't do. If it is useful anywhere it is only on the lager strains, even lagers need esters as a distinguishing flavour. For me personally I will continue to use pressure but only at the end of fermentation.
Don't just read the blog by the brewer at Wildflower, there is plenty of scientific reading at The institute of Brewing.


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## Dan Pratt

I'm wondering that too, why the craft brewery are not doing it as common practice. Locally Six String have moved to pressure ferment but I haven't had a chance to Chris and the brewers some questions about pressure and times applied etc. I have noticed their beers are much cleaner than before, possibly a mental placebo.

I'm yet to use the pressure at the end of ferment to carbonate, usually because 90% are dryhopped but i can see some benefits to using the pressure naturally like discussed.


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## Coldspace

The cleaner beers are from better ferments unless chasing esters, you could run higher temps although to achieve these if you desire plus early ferment at say 6-10 psi which is bugger all , most craft brewery fermenters stand tall and the natural pressure anyway at the bottom or lower portion of these fermenters would be at least this anyway  Having a similar effect on yeast as say my my 50 cm kegmenter at 7-10 psi,( every 10 mtrs or so of water is approx 1 bar of pressure,)but Smaller carb bubbles are another main reason you will find it's better beer ,initially from pressure ferment versus more soda like carb bigger bubbles with carbonic acids formed at fast carb techniques etc from forced carb.which will smooth out with time, but natural el carb is far superior ,especially in the early days of the beer try it one day , you will like.

One of the main reasons I employ this in most of my brews now, all lagers upto doppelbocks, most ales, Irish reds and stouts really go well.

Saisons, never tried only done these styles in ambient ferments .

I always preferred my natural bottle carbed batches than force carb kegs, initially , now pressure ferments allow best of both worlds .

That is one main things that makes a better beer, more palet friendly and allows more of the malt/hops flavours to shine through as the smoother carb is more taste bud friendly. Once you have employed and dialed in this technique you will kick yourself over forced carb and question yourself, why did I not do this earlier.

Another benefit , is smoother creamier heads from the smaller bubbles, it generally laces the glass all the way to finish, if you get it right in the technique.


Plus, plus plus, no oxygen hassles etc. And can try a schooner or 4 a couple of days after cc.

That's why most premium champagne producers carb el natural, gives a nicer finished product

I'm no scientist ,and respect the science behind it, but also when employing these thing in a practical way, good things happen as well , seen and tasted with my many batches, but am also a qualified beverage tech and refrigeration tech and have worked in the beverage industry for nearly 30 years, brewed piss for as long, and understand carbonation, temps and pressures ,but pressure ferments are great and have deff improved my beers to the next level across most styles.

Yes agree, science plays apart, but on the small scale, pressurised ferments can improve all or nearly all your beers if employed correctly . Just don't over do the primary ferment pressure , keep at 1 bar or just under, alittle less if you desire the yeast flavours and for the carbonation benefits ( allow to rise between 19 and 28psi depending on style and finished temp, usually 20-22 degrees before cc )of the finished product make for a nicer smoother beer.

Cheers


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## Dave70

wide eyed and legless said:


> I am not trying to pour cold water on pressurised fermentation,* if it was so good why aren't the craft brewers embracing it,* I would have liked to have found some scientific evidence for it, but it was all to the contrary. 25% of beer drinkers cannot detect VDK's add a load of hops to that percentage and it will rise add to that a cold serve of 2 or 3 degrees and then you are close to a 100%.



Cost perhaps? Whats the average size of a micro fermentation tank, 1500 - 2000L? I'd imagine screwing on a sealed lid and somehow converting your giant tank into a giant pressure vessel might land you in hot water with OH&S types, so thats the kind of kit you would need to consider at startup. If it were a case of tripling your revenue or production it may be worth the investment for an established brewery, but pressure fermentation wont corrector for shit beer in the first place. Only aggressive advertising can do that. Hard earned thirst anyone?..
Thats my theory anyway.


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## bradsbrew

[QUOTE="wide eyed and legless, post: 1493948, member: 31016"

stirring the yeast to keep it in suspension things that we can't do..[/QUOTE]
Oh yes it is. Try quickly dropping the pressure out of a fermentasaurus and watch those yeasties go for a swim.


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## pcqypcqy

I'd disagree that craft brewers aren't jumping on this - the handful of craft breweries I've visited recently have all been using pressure vessels. Tonnes more that I know of are using unitanks, which are pressure vessels.

I agree that they're not necessarily chasing pressure to begin with for the reasons WEAL have stated, but the evidence is there that they give you much quicker/cleaner lagers, and let you carbonate naturally.

They're several times the cost of a non-pressure fermenter of the same size though so I'd imagine small start up type breweries might steer clear purely on a cost basis.


----------



## bradsbrew




----------



## wide eyed and legless

There is only one reason the commercial breweries (only in lager fermentation) pressurise their systems is not to make a better lager but to make it faster. It is agitated throughout and the pressure isn't applied until 40 hours after pitching the yeast. Pro Brewer where a lot of the craft brewers have their threads also have pressure fermenting vessels, I did read where one stated the the maximum pressure of these vessels is 15 psi. I have not seen where any one of them actually pressurises their vessels until the end of fermentation to utilise the CO2 gas for carbonating the beer.
For me the best use of the pressure is for transfer and carbonating, and that could well be why as pcqypcqy states that a lot of the craft brewers are getting pressure vessels may not be to apply back pressure to the fermenting wort but to capture the CO2.


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## pcqypcqy

wide eyed and legless said:


> There is only one reason the commercial breweries (only in lager fermentation) pressurise their systems is not to make a better lager but to make it faster. It is agitated throughout and the pressure isn't applied until 40 hours after pitching the yeast. Pro Brewer where a lot of the craft brewers have their threads also have pressure fermenting vessels, I did read where one stated the the maximum pressure of these vessels is 10 psi. I have not seen where any one of them actually pressurises their vessels until the end of fermentation to utilise the CO2 gas for carbonating the beer.
> For me the best use of the pressure is for transfer and carbonating, and that could well be why as pcqypcqy states that a lot of the craft brewers are getting pressure vessels may not be to apply back pressure to the fermenting wort but to capture the CO2.



Yeah, agreed. From what I've read about pressure schedules, a lot of people only do a few minimial psi for the primary ferment, and then close it right up for the last few points to carbonate.


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## wide eyed and legless

Manifold build, although I have 5 inlets one may be used for venting the gas dependent on how close together the brews are. So at this stage for 4 ferments.
Adding more meat to the bone for tapping out, doubled this for the 1/4 NPT thread.



Spunding valve and gauge.


other end of manifold.


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## malt junkie

wide eyed and legless said:


> There is only one reason the commercial breweries (only in lager fermentation) pressurise their systems is not to make a better lager but to make it faster. It is agitated throughout and the pressure isn't applied until 40 hours after pitching the yeast. Pro Brewer where a lot of the craft brewers have their threads also have pressure fermenting vessels, I did read where one stated the the maximum pressure of these vessels is 15 psi. I have not seen where any one of them actually pressurises their vessels until the end of fermentation to utilise the CO2 gas for carbonating the beer.
> For me the best use of the pressure is for transfer and carbonating, and that could well be why as pcqypcqy states that a lot of the craft brewers are getting pressure vessels may not be to apply back pressure to the fermenting wort but to capture the CO2.


The 15psi, is likely vessel limit, I know Glacier do 30psi but that ain't cheap.

How many of the Pro brewers that pressure ferment their Lagers actually also produce an Ale? Or have stated they use different technique for Ale regarding pressure?
Pretty much I brew for the taste, the pressure fermented Ales I have done (and tasted from other brewers) have been better, cleaner, than their side by side non pressure fermented same batch beers. 
I aerate, pitch, cap and spund (15psi). No my beer will never go under a microscope. Pretty certain it won't kill me. As to the poor yeasties, well once fermentation has finished they end up on the garden, so their ongoing health is of little consequence.

Now all this maybe anecdotal, but I brew to/for taste, I don't need a scientist to tell me what tastes good.


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## wide eyed and legless

malt junkie said:


> The 15psi, is likely vessel limit, I know Glacier do 30psi but that ain't cheap.
> 
> How many of the Pro brewers that pressure ferment their Lagers actually also produce an Ale? Or have stated they use different technique for Ale regarding pressure?
> Pretty much I brew for the taste, the pressure fermented Ales I have done (and tasted from other brewers) have been better, cleaner, than their side by side non pressure fermented same batch beers.
> I aerate, pitch, cap and spund (15psi). No my beer will never go under a microscope. Pretty certain it won't kill me. As to the poor yeasties, well once fermentation has finished they end up on the garden, so their ongoing health is of little consequence.
> 
> Now all this maybe anecdotal, but I brew to/for taste, I don't need a scientist to tell me what tastes good.


We are all plebs when it comes to brewing, but in the fundamentals of brewing we know we have to have a vigorous boil and a robust ferment to get rid of sulphur compounds and anything else that isn't wanted. Applying back pressure, (nothing to do with hydro static pressure from the volume of liquor in a tank) the gasses are dissolving back into the fermenting wort, hence all the posts about foaming during transfer.
Where all this started was a guy on HBT in 2007 after reading an article from a master brewer, called Closed System Pressurised Fermentation by Teri Fahrendorf. 
After 10 years and 57 pages, if you google that same article you can see how the original poster got it wrong on HBT, the pH will be lower than what it should be in a finished beer and it isn't about what I have read which concerns me. It is what I haven't read, all the writers of blogs on brewing, Chris Colby, Palmer, Zainasheff, Aquilla, Oliver, etc not one has come out and endorsed this method. Byo has printed an article but very much the same as what Teri Fahrendorff stipulated. Vent the pressure until you are 1 or 2 degrees Plato from finishing the beer then use the spunding valve, this is the same as what the Pro Brewers are doing on their web site. You will still get a good mouth feel and taste from the naturally fermented beer or lager and a clean finish. But if you are happy with what you are producing thats fine.


----------



## Jack of all biers

wide eyed and legless said:


> Byo has printed an article but very much the same as what Teri Fahrendorff stipulated. Vent the pressure until you are 1 or 2 degrees Plato from finishing the beer then use the spunding valve, this is the same as what the Pro Brewers are doing on their web site. You will still get a good mouth feel and taste from the naturally fermented beer or lager and a clean finish. But if you are happy with what you are producing thats fine.



I think that is pretty much what most brewers with experience in pressure fermenting are doing to a certain extent. At least from what I have read on this forum. They set their spunding valves to low pressures, 5-15psi seems to be the general range, and vent at that pressure until 1 to 2 Plato prior to FG when they might if they do so, up the pressure and temp to get natural carbonation, whilst ensuring complete attenuation and D-rest is covered. I wouldn't think that at pressures of 5-15psi there would be a lot of sulphur that is remaining in the beers, though taste would soon tell the brewer. Anyone who pressure ferments come across this problem before?


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## Coldspace

No sulphurs detected, the cleanest beers I've ever made , mine and shit loads of friends /family agree, we are brewing about 200 ltrs a month and all now with this method.

Pressure only between 10-14 psi depending on spunding valve accuracy. Then carb up.

When weal gets into it I think he will surprise himself...


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## wobbly

Well I'm sure that I will get it for posting this but here goes!!!!
The standard procedure in the WilliamsWarn Systems call for setting the variable pressure relief valve (VPRV) equal to a setting that will hold around 1.5 bar (20psi) and allow the yeast activity to build to and hold at that pressure for the full ferment. So in practice the vessel starts at zero pressure and builds to the 1.5 bar (20psi) over the next 12/18 hours. That is for fermenting an Ale at 23C Similar procedure but slightly different temperature setting for Lager/Pilsner. 
There are reportedly 100's of these systems in use and from what I can gleam from their user forum there isn't too much departure from this setting and no reported issues with off flavors etc.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wynnum1

What do they do with the Carbon dioxide do they just vent or reclaim A groundbreaking plant where _carbon_ dioxide is sucked from the air before being resold has opened in _Switzerland that sounds like a global warming wank they sell to green houses if you collect could do the same from beer brewing._


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## Dave70

So there's great results seemingly over a vast range of pressures, the common denominator being minimizing or eliminating oxidization. Is it reasonable to assume _this_ is actually key to the whole process and the pressure thing being a useful side effect?


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## wide eyed and legless

As I have said before after reading this whole thread what piqued my curiosity, was if it is so good why aren't any of the craft and bigger breweries doing it, I think Dan nailed it in his post 425 its all about the esters.
The pressure ferment subdue the esters so I would presume that the major players aren't prepared to give up the yeast enhanced flavours.
And repeating what I said in my last post, if you like what you are doing stick with it, I will continue not to apply any pressure until the final couple of points, in saying that I mostly drink ales and I keep them at 10 to 15 degrees C even the hop driven AIPA's, but I will try a pressure ferment on the next hop forward one I brew.
I was happy with my first attempt, apart from losing a couple of points, pitched yeast on the Sunday and drinking it on the following Saturday it was still green but not bad to drink.
Cold space I would be checking your gauge and your PRV, I pressure tested my manifold yesterday the gauge was spot on but the calibrations on the PRV was way off, 25 psi to be exact (25 psi was actually zero) not that I am worried about it I will just synchronize the two readings.
wynnum the big breweries do capture their CO2 and use it for purging and carbonating and any excess is sold. A NASA home brewer made a system for reclaiming CO2, they can freeze liquify or make oxygen with it. 
https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2016/cg_3.html


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## Coldspace

Yep, if it's working for one, then don't change anything.

I love my little craft house now, all humming along lovely and the beers are better than what I can buy so I will stick with everything.

Cheers


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## bradsbrew

Coldspace said:


> I love my little craft house now, all humming along lovely and the beers are better than what I can buy so I will stick with everything.
> 
> Cheers



Could not agree more. PF has sparked a renewed love of this sport.
Unfortunately it also sparked way too much spending.
Apparently this is a little too much.


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## Midnight Brew

bradsbrew said:


> Could not agree more. PF has sparked a renewed love of this sport.
> Unfortunately it also sparked way too much spending.
> Apparently this is a little too much.View attachment 110572



NICE!


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## bradsbrew

Getting a bit off topic, but pressure fermenting in the 23L kegs also sparked an idea to brew to suit them.
I have brewed higher sg and higher mash temp then dilute post ferment. The results have been great.
That way i can take a 29L cube and split it between the two kegs. Then when i transfer, the receiving keg already has the water, biofine and hop ball if required.
To get the dilution ratio, i just water down the hydro sample to the required gravity then calculate that to 19L.

Cheers


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Auusie Sociopath said:


> Getting a bit off topic, but pressure fermenting in the 23L kegs also sparked an idea to brew to suit them.
> I have brewed higher sg and higher mash temp then dilute post ferment. The results have been great.
> That way i can take a 29L cube and split it between the two kegs. Then when i transfer, the receiving keg already has the water, biofine and hop ball if required.
> To get the dilution ratio, i just water down the hydro sample to the required gravity then calculate that to 19L.
> 
> Cheers


What about the head space in the keg? And the water?


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## rossbaker

wide eyed and legless said:


> What about the head space in the keg? And the water?


19l should be fine in a 23l keg I reckon. Nothing a bit of fermcap can't fix otherwise.


----------



## rossbaker

bradsbrew said:


> Could not agree more. PF has sparked a renewed love of this sport.
> Unfortunately it also sparked way too much spending.
> Apparently this is a little too much.View attachment 110572


I need kegs like that! Been on the lookout for ages, don't have the funds for the ibrew ones at the moment.


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## wide eyed and legless

rossbaker said:


> 19l should be fine in a 23l keg I reckon. Nothing a bit of fermcap can't fix otherwise.


I was thinking of the removal of the oxygen from the water and the keg.


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## rossbaker

wide eyed and legless said:


> I was thinking of the removal of the oxygen from the water and the keg.


Gotcha. I was picturing the water being added to the 23l kegs prior to pitching/fermenting, but it does sound like it's going into the serving keg.


----------



## Coldspace

bradsbrew said:


> Getting a bit off topic, but pressure fermenting in the 23L kegs also sparked an idea to brew to suit them.
> I have brewed higher sg and higher mash temp then dilute post ferment. The results have been great.
> That way i can take a 29L cube and split it between the two kegs. Then when i transfer, the receiving keg already has the water, biofine and hop ball if required.
> To get the dilution ratio, i just water down the hydro sample to the required gravity then calculate that to 19L.
> 
> Cheers


I used to do something similar in my bucket of death days,

I brew up an extract receipe in the fermenter with some steeped grains and por hops in a bag with an immersion heater over the side, I did a powers bitter type receipe, it was scetchy as lol as the fermenter would get soft etc lol,
I'd brew a double batch strength, light malt extract , crystal grain steeped on stove, pinch salt and por hops then seal up and leave to cool down over night, pitch yeast, ferment out high grav, then split the batch into 2 cornies and top up with filtered water and force carb. Always was better than kit kilo back then.

Turned out awesome, most times lol ,so good friends made me put 4 kegs on at their engagement and I did the same at mine, and the kegs got drunk before the package beers I made them buy incase mine were not drunk lol this was 22 years ago before all the science crept in as craft brewing took off.

Goes to show, that there are old ways that still churn out acceptable beers.....


----------



## Coldspace

Interesting ghetto backyard experiment lol,

I recently just mashed 2 Aussie lager type beers for the Christmas /New Years hols guests, same receipe, 2 identical batches in 2 grainfathers at the same time, both gravs came out within 1 point or so of each other, 1070, 1071 ish, at 32 ltrs each.High grav mash then diluted down each batch to make about 1048 into the 50 ltr kegmenters. About 45 ltr batches.

Each batch, was oxygen up, pitched with 5 ltr decanted starters of s189, one was run at 14 psi, at 13 degrees for 1 week, then allowed to rise over couple of days to 18. Then carb up and cc, left for 1 week to clear.3 weeks total.

Other batch was run in the other fermenting freezer at the same time, although it started 1 week later because I needed to grow another big starter, ran this one at 20 degrees which is still in the recommended range of this yeast at 13-14 psi. It hit 1012 in 2 days from start of active ferment. Allow to carb up, done in 6 days, cc for 1 week, total of 2 weeks. It caught up with the slower kegmenter .

Drank from both yesterday arvo and the lower temp one was cleaner and more crisp, the higher temp one still clean but there is a difference .
Further lagering in cornies over the coming few weeks will show how they end up.
14 psi was prob not enough to suppress much other than the krausen at higher temp. But I don't want to run higher pressure as I've gone down this pathway to keep oxygen out and to natural carb the brews.

The higher temp run one was done for speed to get stocks up for the holidays and also thought I'd try a side by side test which I'm glad I did, it still turned out really great and my mega swill family will still guzzle it, and most likely will not be able to tell the diff, but I'll still stick with the extra week and get a cleaner result.

So, I'll keep my initial temps down and just accept that time is still key for my fussy lager tastes lol

Cheers


----------



## wide eyed and legless

1 week since my beer went into the secondary cube, was a little concerned that I may have introduced O2 by using water pressure to compress the CO2 I had saved and used it for natural carbonation.
Gravity pour from the cube (around about half way consumed) taste is almost as creamy as from my beer engine.




As your experiment with splitting a high gravity wort coldspace I have been thinking over Brads method and I reckon that has potential. A 20 litre batch of beer produces about 1.6 Kg of CO2 on average, more with a higher gravity. Harnessing that CO2 , boiling the water to remove the O2 ,carbonate the water using the reclaimed CO2 and adding that to the wort post fermentation. The only small problem then is getting the O2 out of the head space.


----------



## wynnum1

If you fill with water and then push out with reclaimed co2 there will be no head space for 02 the co2 needs to be compressed with a food grade compressor .


----------



## Coldspace

Beer does look creamy.
Nice tropical garden in the back ground


----------



## wide eyed and legless

No, what I did was with a cube of CO2 at atmosphere, start and fill the cube with water at mains pressure, its easier to compress gas than liquid, my only concern was oxygen coming out of the water and mixing with the CO2 which doesn't appear to have happend. At least not sufficiently to oxidise the beer.


----------



## wynnum1

How much o2 is in mains pressure water and if carbonate does that expel any oxygen .


----------



## wide eyed and legless

wynnum1 said:


> How much o2 is in mains pressure water and if carbonate does that expel any oxygen .


I have ordered a DO meter that is on its way,so soon as I get it I will be able to tell you, at the moment I just know there is some in the tap water. I did read the whole of the Low dissolved oxygen brewing techniques thread very interesting and some things I will be using myself, have been looking at the other sites on line as well. Lots of info here.
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/


----------



## wynnum1

Looked at a couple of you tube videos for _Fermentasaurus where they take the bottle off the base and replace and would think filling with water would be best way to eliminate oxygen when they replace to dry hop or collect more yeast._


----------



## mtb

I plan to dry hop in my fermentasauruses about ten points above FG. That oxygen ought to be consumed by the fermentation in progress.


----------



## fungrel

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have ordered a DO meter that is on its way,so soon as I get it I will be able to tell you, at the moment I just know there is some in the tap water. I did read the whole of the Low dissolved oxygen brewing techniques thread very interesting and some things I will be using myself, have been looking at the other sites on line as well. Lots of info here.
> http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/


You have a spare 400+ to spend on a meter?


----------



## wide eyed and legless




----------



## Dan Pratt

I've dedicated a keg to dry hopping. Cut the dip tube shorter to allow for 100gm of hops. Pressure transfer to co2 flushed dry hop keg and every day flip it over to rouse the hops. Pressure transfer from hop keg to serving keg.

this frees up the FV and also allows the hops to get better extraction and very low oxygen ingress.


----------



## Gelding

malt junkie said:


> I know there is a popular belief that yeast can suffer detrimental effects under pressure. But follow me for a minute here.
> Lets take a small/medium craft brewer like Wayward for instance Brew length of 40HL, FVs of 40 and 80HL. Now for every vertical meter of height water will exert 10KPA of static pressure(the gravity of wort would change this but not dramatically), most of Wayward's FVs are near 4m tall, so any lager they produce has 40kpa of static pressure on the yeast where they are working.
> Waywards beers taste fine to me. Now if you then think about the static pressure in the vessels CUB, Lion, or even Coopers are using.....



which is why the bigger breweries recirculate their tanks by pumping bottom to top so that the yeast get an average pressure exposure....


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Gelding said:


> which is why the bigger breweries recirculate their tanks by pumping bottom to top so that the yeast get an average pressure exposure....


Very true but, going into, 'Under pressure fermentation' also diminishes a yeast forward flavour. It is said yeast derives 30% of flavour to beer, so theoretically if we are going to apply a back pressure of say 20 psi to eliminate the esters which yeast add to flavour a beer or lager, does that mean we can use any yeast to ferment our beer/lager?


----------



## Coldspace

wide eyed and legless said:


> Very true but, going into, 'Under pressure fermentation' also diminishes a yeast forward flavour. It is said yeast derives 30% of flavour to beer, so theoretically if we are going to apply a back pressure of say 20 psi to eliminate the esters which yeast add to flavour a beer or lager, does that mean we can use any yeast to ferment our beer/lager?


Interesting , maybe if chasing really clean lager then using diff lager type yeasts might be similar

Might have to try a side by side test with my kegmenters using same receipe but total diff yeasts one day when I get time


----------



## droid

would FUP create a warmer ferment? with little release/escape and all that activity....


----------



## Danscraftbeer

droid said:


> would FUP create a warmer ferment? with little release/escape and all that activity....


I wondered that too. In a 50l kegmenter (still small scale) but I wondered about the temp control. The fridge may be reading 18c but what about in the middle of the brew? So I fitted a thermowell midway so the sensor is literally reading inside the brew temp.


----------



## malt junkie

DCB thinking down this same path have 2 thermowels from beerbelly I plan to have welded in. 
Lately have been pushing the boundaries a little with a few ambient (yes the last few days included) ferments @ 15psi. I know at one point it was 38 in there. 

One of the beers was the swap brew dropped on a full cake of US05, cube had left over golden syrup and cube hopped with 30gm of simcoe. Tasted this today at lunch after 30 hrs of CC, now I haven't checked FG as yet but it was quite dry and not really enough malt to support the current apparent bitterness. That isn't to say this won't smooth out. I want to leave this for a while and have some others taste, currently I'm not picking hot alcohols or heavy ester flavours.

The second brew was 24hrs behind the swap brew, plain simple: Wey pale 98% Abbey 2% cascade 30,10 and 0 on San Diego super yeast. Being as this is so simple it should show some faults if they're there

I certainly wouldn't recommend pushing this hard; timing Spunding close off was a bit of a challenge and both ferments finished in under 72hrs.

Will report back with more results over the coming weeks.

MJ


----------



## Danscraftbeer

Keep us informed please. 38! woah. It would be nice if pressure ferment can suppress negative flavours like hot alc too. My temp control fridge is making some pretty freakin weird noises here and there I'm worried its gonna kick the bucket...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

droid said:


> would FUP create a warmer ferment? with little release/escape and all that activity....


If you have a wort of 1.045 and an actual attenuation of 65% you will have 'X' amount of KJ to convert, being under pressure wouldn't change that, so the energy factor would be the same. But if you mean what happens to the heat generated, if it can't vent then the only escape would be through the fermenter walls so I would imagine it would be a warmer ferment.


----------



## wynnum1

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you have a wort of 1.045 and an actual attenuation of 65% you will have 'X' amount of KJ to convert, being under pressure wouldn't change that, so the energy factor would be the same. But if you mean what happens to the heat generated, if it can't vent then the only escape would be through the fermenter walls so I would imagine it would be a warmer ferment.


Metal fermenter would be better to transfer heat if you put in a keg with a good amount of head space how quickly would the pressure go up and how high and if not vented would it stop fermentation.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

wynnum1 said:


> Metal fermenter would be better to transfer heat if you put in a keg with a good amount of head space how quickly would the pressure go up and how high and if not vented would it stop fermentation.


The speed of the pressure going up will depend on the lag time as the yeast adjusts and gets to work, it isn't the actual pressure that stops the yeast working, it is the dissolved CO2 which slows down the fermentation.


----------



## wynnum1

So at higher temperature higher pressure less dissolved CO2.


----------



## Hpal

Hpal said:


> I am currently pressure fermenting a lager, it's at about 20psi and 10 degrees, I pitched a starter of yeast from another batch and oxygenated the wort. That was 6 days ago and it's gone from 1.045 to 1.016 in that time and tastes clean as and is carbed. Pressure ferments rock.


Just kegged this lager today, 3 weeks total but could easily do a lager now in 2 - 2.5 weeks. A combiniation of oxygenated wort and pressure fermenting has halved the time. Couple that with stainless fermenter, carbonated beer at the end of ferment and closed transfers to a purged keg and you're onto a winner.


----------



## Goose

Just my 2c of experience. I tried fermenting my lagers under pressure but in all honesty could not notice any difference in the end result. So I went back to atmospheric fermentation.

Dr WEAL, I do apologize I havnt read all 292 posts but you seem to be onto something here, can you summarise your hypothesis please. 

If I speed read, do you reckon we should not ferment under pressure, at least until the end, coz you will suppress the desired flavour characteristics of the yeast in which case the only benefit is "free" carbonation ?


----------



## malt junkie

Depends on your desired ester profile. Both high temp ferments, still had ester flavours(my previous post), so in essence you need to balance pressure and temperature to achieve desired outcome. We know pressure suppresses esters, we know heat pushes esters. Much play to be had.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Goose said:


> Just my 2c of experience. I tried fermenting my lagers under pressure but in all honesty could not notice any difference in the end result. So I went back to atmospheric fermentation.
> 
> Dr WEAL, I do apologize I havnt read all 292 posts but you seem to be onto something here, can you summarise your hypothesis please.
> 
> If I speed read, do you reckon we should not ferment under pressure, at least until the end, coz you will suppress the desired flavour characteristics of the yeast in which case the only benefit is "free" carbonation ?


It depends on what you are trying to achieve, as MJ says the balance between higher temperature and pressure needs to be balanced to keep some esters, but according to those with more scientific knowledge this can only be achieved with lager yeast strains. Ale yeast strains will lead to increased VDK's, for me there is only one way to achieve a perfect pilsner and that is an open fermentation, much like is done in Bavaria and Czechoslovakia. Although reading the Low dissolved oxygen thread and reading more about it on line you can still achieve a good pilsner under a closed system fermentation, by capping the fermentation when there is only 1 or 2 degrees plato left to go. I am going to ferment a AIPA under pressure because the hops are the dominant flavour not the yeast, but it isn't my favourite drink. I like this system because it does give free CO2 and you can naturally carb and more important from my point of view transfer to another vessel without the concern of oxidization, I will be finishing my first brew tonight which was about 23 litres which I have drank straight from the secondary cube over 2 weeks. Still fresh, alive and clear.


----------



## Goose

thanks Dr WEAL.

I am closed system and about as LDO as can be, from boiler the beer never sees air until it comes from my dispensing taps. Fully note the effect of temperature and pressure but for lagers I think its mostly about the viability and cell count of the yeast which of course is a prerequisite for any of the techniques described here....


----------



## malt junkie

So back to my high temp ferments. both saw the sunny side of 38c (ambient) @ 15PSI; one a simple pale on San Diego Super yeast 2l starter OG 1048 with an fg of 1011 and an IPA on a US 05 cake OG of 1065 and FG 1012.

Both have finished up quite clean, the IPA is dank as, so very hard to pick faults with in the malt profile but there's enough there to support the hops, the pale has a fairly sweet finish and just enough hops to let you know they're there the sweetness could be hinting at VDK but doesn't seem out of place (mash was 66-67c). I have to say both these beers are quite smashable, and I'm really pleased with the IPA certainly is up there with many of my favourite commercial samples.

It would seem with decent healthy yeast pitch and reasonable ambient temps, producing a good quality beer with pressure as the controlled variable is doable. Quite obviously the more variables we can control the more likely we can achieve the same quality, brew to brew.


----------



## Dan Pratt

^ 38c or did you mean 28c for ambient temp?


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## malt junkie

Dan Pratt said:


> ^ 38c or did you mean 28c for ambient temp?



28 pft .... thats with in the realm of realistic, 38c was outside temp, the kegmenter was in my shed on the concrete floor, the shed was ventilated but wouldn't suprise if it were a degree or 2 hotter inside the shed. My back is shot so no lifting full fermenters, my 1v I'd pump to the FV in the fridge, but both these were Biab and gravity filled, so were stuck where they sat when filled.


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## mxd

hey guys
my first ferment with the fermentasauras, i dry hopped yesterday (add hops in new bottle purge with c02, remove trub bottle and place hop bottle on) 

From the video kee did i was expecing the hops o move to the top. The trub bottle if full of hop trub.

How do others do dry hopping ? 

fyi
80 g of hops in bottle
started cc as i swapped bottle
been 24 hours now

cheers
Matt


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## Dan Pratt

80g would be pushing the limit with the 500ml bottle, did they rise to the top?,

photo?

I pressure transfer to a seperate corny keg with a shortened dip tube for dry hop. The corny is filled with hops then C02 and beer pushed into the vessell for dry hop phase.


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## mxd

Here’s the photo


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## Danscraftbeer

mxd said:


> Here’s the photo


looks like the hops aren't making great contact with the beer. If any. Combination the yeast cake looks like its blocking the way and the hop pellets when hydrated swelled up compressing inside the bottle?


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## mxd

maybe i should left it at temp for a day or 2 before cc 

ill see hoe it goes


----------



## Digga

Would have to agree with Dan. The yeast up above looks to be well settled and the hops appear to be stuck inside the bottle. Probably only a couple of ways to try and get them into the beer.

1- Take the bottle off and put half into a snap lock bag and purge with co2, the squeeze some of the co2 out. When you put the bottle back on it should force beer into the bottle and hops to mix somewhat with the beer. Will have to remove the bottle and do the other half in the same manner.

2- Remove bottle and bleed pressure from the fermentersaurus and add the hops into the top. Not ideal as it will be exposed to oxygen for a short period of time but is exactly the same way that non pressure ferments are dry hopped with good outcomes.

Could try giving the bottle a squeeze to force them into the beer?

I don't own one of these units so am unsure on the force required to compress the bottle and if it even possible. Just giving some food for thought.

Hope it's still yummy beer nonetheless.


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## mtb

Try purging pressure quickly. You'd be surprised how much that agitates the sediment. Might just be enough to loosen that plug that's formed


----------



## Tony121

bradsbrew said:


>




Like this


----------



## mtb

Tony121 said:


> Like this


Yeah, like that.

Purge quick and watch 'em dance. This is also a great method of ensuring maximum dry hop effectiveness.


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## Dan Pratt

After seeing the photo, like mentioned. Pull the pressure valve and all that green goodness will move into the beer.


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## Danscraftbeer

Hopefully! Or its going to be fun getting the block of hops out of the bottle. I do like the idea though.


----------



## Denobrew

I got caught like this with the first dry hop on the fermentersaurus. Lifted it out of the holder and shook the vessel. Not great success. Now I de-pressure and open the lid, drop hops in. Before ferment is finished with the hope any introduction of o2 will get scavenged. I also put the spunding valve on a keg outside the fermenting fridge. Run a line from the fermentersaurus gas post to the beer out post of corny keg, spunding valve on gas post of corny. Purges keg and also provides pressure to the vessel after dry hop with pressure from corny keg, save using co2 bottle.


----------



## mtb

Denobrew said:


> I got caught like this with the first dry hop on the fermentersaurus. Lifted it out of the holder and shook the vessel. Not great success. Now I de-pressure and open the lid, drop hops in. Before ferment is finished with the hope any introduction of o2 will get scavenged. I also put the spunding valve on a keg outside the fermenting fridge. Run a line from the fermentersaurus gas post to the beer out post of corny keg, spunding valve on gas post of corny. Purges keg and also provides pressure to the vessel after dry hop with pressure from corny keg, save using co2 bottle.


I like the idea of using a separate keg for this. I have nothing to back it up, but I assume the C02 produced by a fermenting beer also carries the hop aroma of that beer. Might as well save some for kegging.


----------



## Maheel

I am about to use one of my 23L MR kegs as a PFV instead of my 50L 

I was thinking of trimming the dip tube up 50mm to get off the yeast for when i transfer to a corny 

would i be able to slip a bit of silicon hose on the end in the future to get back to "normal" length if i want to ? These were bought just for PFV duty anyway but thought this could solve the problem in the future.


----------



## wynnum1

mtb said:


> I like the idea of using a separate keg for this. I have nothing to back it up, but I assume the C02 produced by a fermenting beer also carries the hop aroma of that beer. Might as well save some for kegging.


If you connected a 50 L keg full of water and forced out with the C02 from the ferment then that would leave a keg full of co2 and then if the pressure was allowed to increase that would put more co2 in the 50 l keg if that keg was now connected to pressurized water that would compress the co2 as the keg filled with water to a useful pressure they show with the fermentasaurus using hose pressure to test if pressure safe.


----------



## malt junkie

Maheel said:


> I am about to use one of my 23L MR kegs as a PFV instead of my 50L
> 
> I was thinking of trimming the dip tube up 50mm to get off the yeast for when i transfer to a corny
> 
> would i be able to slip a bit of silicon hose on the end in the future to get back to "normal" length if i want to ? These were bought just for PFV duty anyway but thought this could solve the problem in the future.


I wouldn't cut the dip tube, Mardoo uses and swears by these. and at that price definitely worth a try.
ED: just ordered some maself


----------



## Mardoo

Actually, I have two with cut dip tubes which I prefer for dry hopping, and two with uncut dip tubes which I prefer for the ferment.


----------



## malt junkie

Mardoo said:


> Actually, I have two with cut dip tubes which I prefer for dry hopping, and two with uncut dip tubes which I prefer for the ferment.


Do you use the pure screens for both ferment and DH? oh and do I just slip that over the dip tube, for my kegmenters I need a way of holding the screen in place, was thinking of crimping them with pliers unless there are other suggestions?


----------



## barls

they are a pretty firm fit on the kegs im using them on


----------



## Maheel

was going to dry hop in both PFV and maybe then in corney using tea-balls at this stage 

might see if LHB shop has them but also trim the pickup as 

is the silicone tube re-extension if needed a sound idea but ? 

cheers for input


----------



## Digga

I've found tea balls (supposed to be stainless) went rusty over the course of 3 months while drinking a beer they were in.

As you can imagine the beer was anything but good and left a fair rust stain / patch on the bottom of the keg.


----------



## squirt in the turns

Total n00b to fermenting under pressure here - about to attempt for the first time. Apologies if this question is answered somewhere in this thread already - I haven't reviewed all 500 posts 

With a PFV (in my case a 50 L keg with shortened dip tube), is it a good idea to pressurise with pure oxygen from a cylinder to oxygenate wort? It seems to me like if this was properly controlled it would be a great way to get the right amount of oxygen dissolved at the start of fermentation. It also seems likely that it would be pretty easy to get way too much oxygen in there, to the point that it's more than the yeast would need/use, or even get to toxic levels. Has anyone had success with this? If so, what pressure should the O2 be injected at, and should the wort be agitated to get more into solution? And how long for? Wort temperature I assume would have an impact too.

I actually plan to no-chill in the 50 L keg purging and pressurising with CO2 to 300 kpa until ready to ferment, then pitch yeast, inject O2 directly, then attach spunding valve and set for 15 PSI.

Planning to make a light lager with W-34/70. Is pure O2 overkill/unnecessary with dried yeast anyway? Is there a consensus on how warm w-34/70 can go under pressure? Looking for a faster primary as I have thirsty in-laws inbound soon.



Denobrew said:


> I got caught like this with the first dry hop on the fermentersaurus. Lifted it out of the holder and shook the vessel. Not great success. Now I de-pressure and open the lid, drop hops in. Before ferment is finished with the hope any introduction of o2 will get scavenged. I also put the spunding valve on a keg outside the fermenting fridge. Run a line from the fermentersaurus gas post to the beer out post of corny keg, spunding valve on gas post of corny. Purges keg and also provides pressure to the vessel after dry hop with pressure from corny keg, save using co2 bottle.



With the setup Denobrew's describing here (spunding valve on separate keg) how does the keg get purged? If it starts out with regular atmospheric gas in it, then it's going to end up with a mix of that original gas (albeit at a lower concentration), and CO2 from the ferment, so not exactly desirable for dispensing or whatnot. If it starts out full of water/starsan then if would get a complete purge, but I can't see how a spunding valve can be used in that situation.


----------



## Denobrew

With the setup Denobrew's describing here (spunding valve on separate keg) how does the keg get purged? If it starts out with regular atmospheric gas in it, then it's going to end up with a mix of that original gas (albeit at a lower concentration), and CO2 from the ferment, so not exactly desirable for dispensing or whatnot. If it starts out full of water/starsan then if would get a complete purge, but I can't see how a spunding valve can be used in that situation.[/QUOTE]







I also transfer to the keg that has been purged/pressured from the fermetersaurus. The o2 would be negligible I imagine? The keg is purged constantly for the duration, maybe 5 days depending on brew - yeast - temp et cetera. On a home brew scale, it's certainly a long way from where I started. The closest thing to zero oxygen in the finished beer I have come up with so far. I hear you on the pushing out water proposal, but I would need to have another receiving keg of a greater volume to recieve the water. Not sure I'm ready to go to that extreme yet. Let me know if you have any other ideas to help minimise o2 further.

Cheers.
Edit. Not real good at this on the phone


----------



## Jack of all biers

Maheel said:


> I am about to use one of my 23L MR kegs as a PFV instead of my 50L
> 
> I was thinking of trimming the dip tube up 50mm to get off the yeast for when i transfer to a corny
> 
> would i be able to slip a bit of silicon hose on the end in the future to get back to "normal" length if i want to ? These were bought just for PFV duty anyway but thought this could solve the problem in the future.


Or just take out the liquid dip tube (I'm assuming there is a liquid dip tube similar to the cornies), replace it with a short gas tube and put on one of the KK floating ball dip tubes that take from the top of the beer. That way you could easily replace the liquid dip tube at a later date.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

squirt in the turns said:


> Total n00b to fermenting under pressure here - about to attempt for the first time. Apologies if this question is answered somewhere in this thread already - I haven't reviewed all 500 posts
> 
> With a PFV (in my case a 50 L keg with shortened dip tube), is it a good idea to pressurise with pure oxygen from a cylinder to oxygenate wort? It seems to me like if this was properly controlled it would be a great way to get the right amount of oxygen dissolved at the start of fermentation. It also seems likely that it would be pretty easy to get way too much oxygen in there, to the point that it's more than the yeast would need/use, or even get to toxic levels. Has anyone had success with this? If so, what pressure should the O2 be injected at, and should the wort be agitated to get more into solution? And how long for? Wort temperature I assume would have an impact too.
> 
> I actually plan to no-chill in the 50 L keg purging and pressurising with CO2 to 300 kpa until ready to ferment, then pitch yeast, inject O2 directly, then attach spunding valve and set for 15 PSI.
> 
> Planning to make a light lager with W-34/70. Is pure O2 overkill/unnecessary with dried yeast anyway? Is there a consensus on how warm w-34/70 can go under pressure? Looking for a faster primary as I have thirsty in-laws inbound soon.
> 
> 
> 
> With the setup Denobrew's describing here (spunding valve on separate keg) how does the keg get purged? If it starts out with regular atmospheric gas in it, then it's going to end up with a mix of that original gas (albeit at a lower concentration), and CO2 from the ferment, so not exactly desirable for dispensing or whatnot. If it starts out full of water/starsan then if would get a complete purge, but I can't see how a spunding valve can be used in that situation.


Your right about the O2 it should be controlled, and do you really need it? I am new to this but have been reading up quite a bit on yeast, good article here read under Oxidative stress. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1574-6976.2007.00076.x/full)
Also lots of good info on the Low Oxygen Brewing site (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/) these guys seem to target 8 ppm, so not so much. As for the purging, post 449 by wynum, filling the keg with water (but better with sanitiser added) and forcing it out with bottled CO2 will purge the keg, you will not need the spunding for that, or running your venting CO2 through 2 or 3 sanitised kegs for 5 days will purge them. Worthwhile reading the links you should find them helpful.


----------



## Jack of all biers

Good links WEAL. Thanks for the yeast stress one, a good one indeed.


----------



## Maheel

I ended up trimming 50mm of the tubes of the 23L's, got two going in the ferment fridge as i went and bought another spunding valve. 
A summit and cascade ale and an all summit ale. 

I dont yet purge my receiving kegs just run the beer out into the beer out tube of REC keg and transfer with co2, slow to begin to limit "spash" using the spunding valve on the REC keg? 


How sanitary would it be purging sanitized receiving kegs with co2 from the ferment FPV outside the ferment fridge?

FPV in fridge -> rec keg outside fridge -> spunding on that keg.
once FPV fermented disconnect and crash chill FPVkeg
push beer into purged keg when ready etc


----------



## Jack of all biers

Maheel said:


> I ended up trimming 50mm of the tubes of the 23L's, got two going in the ferment fridge as i went and bought another spunding valve.
> A summit and cascade ale and an all summit ale.
> 
> I dont yet purge my receiving kegs just run the beer out into the beer out tube of REC keg and transfer with co2, slow to begin to limit "spash" using the spunding valve on the REC keg?
> 
> 
> How sanitary would it be purging sanitized receiving kegs with co2 from the ferment FPV outside the ferment fridge?
> 
> FPV in fridge -> rec keg outside fridge -> spunding on that keg.
> once FPV fermented disconnect and crash chill FPVkeg
> push beer into purged keg when ready etc


If it can be done on your system with everything in between sanitised then it is as sanitary as you can get it. If there is a risk of yeast blow off from the FPV, then maybe have a minikeg inbetween to collect blow off and daisy chain it to your REC keg to receive the CO2. If you want to be doubly sure (and save tank CO2) then you could daisy chain in one more step and fill the REC keg with sanitising solution and have another keg daisy chained to it to receive the sanitising solution. You just have to ensure that the last keg on the chain has a volume as big or bigger than the REC keg so that overflow is not a problem. On the same note, it may be best using phosphoric acid or H2O2 type sanitising solutions rather than a foaming one like Starsan to avoid foam being blown through your spunding valve.

FPV in fridge -> mini keg -> REC keg full of sanitising solution -> spare keg (as big or bigger than REC keg) with spunding valve


----------



## malt junkie

my only issue is if the brew your spunding ends up infected then so are/is the keg/s purged this way.


----------



## Maheel

malt junkie said:


> my only issue is if the brew your spunding ends up infected then so are/is the keg/s purged this way.



yeah, i even had concerns about how sanitary it all would be..

think i will stick to just filling the REC keg and live with that bit of oxy


----------



## Maheel

edit double post


----------



## droid

I'm going to get a tab welded onto the underside of my kegmenter lids, something like the tabs the newer KK 19ltr kegs have for hop socks etc...then do a pressure ferment with a bunch of hops inside in a stocking. Then transfer to another serving keg that's purged and has another hop sock in it, if it's needed..to mix up the dry-hops in each 19ltr keg a bit

Any tips on the style of tab/attachment to put on?

I thought I read on here that hops were toxic to yeast - how are people finding the yeast performing with hops added at the start like this?

cheers


----------



## wide eyed and legless

malt junkie said:


> my only issue is if the brew your spunding ends up infected then so are/is the keg/s purged this way.


The spunding would be at the far end of the daisy chain, the venting gas going through the kegs and finally the spunding valve. So no chance of infection from the valve.


----------



## Digga

He states that if the beer your fermenting get / is infected then there will be the infection in the Daisy chained kegs and spudding valve. I would imagine the infection would carry in the CO2 produced and everything would need re-sanitation. I don't know what bacteria can travel / live in co2 though.


----------



## wynnum1

Digga said:


> He states that if the beer your fermenting get / is infected then there will be the infection in the Daisy chained kegs and spudding valve. I would imagine the infection would carry in the CO2 produced and everything would need re-sanitation. I don't know what bacteria can travel / live in co2 though.


What filters are there to stop infection transferring.


----------



## Jack of all biers

malt junkie said:


> my only issue is if the brew your spunding ends up infected then so are/is the keg/s purged this way.





Digga said:


> He states that if the beer your fermenting get / is infected then there will be the infection in the Daisy chained kegs and spudding valve. I would imagine the infection would carry in the CO2 produced and everything would need re-sanitation. I don't know what bacteria can travel / live in co2 though.



This is a bit of a silly what if isn't it? I mean if your sanitation was so bad that your brew was infected it is probably mute anyway as you would likely not want to drink it (and if you did, would it matter). This is really one of those what if questions that goes no where.

What's being said is that the gas carries the infection (being either wild yeast or bacteria)? Not really. As WEAL stated is correct. Bacteria and wild yeast hitch rides on particles (dust, blow off etc). If there is dust in your daisy chain system, then you have not cleaned or sanitised it properly. The CO2 from the hypothetical infected ferment would travel through the system and at worst you will get some of the off aroma's from the infected beer you are brewing and/or any other gases (sulphur gases etc). If there was an infection in the fermenting brew then the bacteria/wild yeast would only travel with blowoff material. This would travel through the first tube to the bottom of the mini keg and stay there. It would need to be highly pressured to mist enough for it to pass up to the top of that keg and further through the lines to the REC keg. Not impossible, but rather improbable. I go back to the what if thing.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Infection would be the most unlikely thing, the only person to blame for that is oneself, oxygen is the brewers biggest threat, doubtful we would be able to keep it out completely but keeping it to a minimal level should be our aim. Its the positive, not negative outlook that achieves results.


----------



## rossbaker

droid said:


> I'm going to get a tab welded onto the underside of my kegmenter lids, something like the tabs the newer KK 19ltr kegs have for hop socks etc...then do a pressure ferment with a bunch of hops inside in a stocking. Then transfer to another serving keg that's purged and has another hop sock in it, if it's needed..to mix up the dry-hops in each 19ltr keg a bit
> 
> Any tips on the style of tab/attachment to put on?
> 
> I thought I read on here that hops were toxic to yeast - how are people finding the yeast performing with hops added at the start like this?
> 
> cheers



Not necessary IMO if the lid has a pressure relief valve. You should be able to get a hose clamp on there easily enough and tie the bag to that. I've even had luck using a plastic cable tie.


----------



## fdsaasdf

droid said:


> I thought I read on here that hops were toxic to yeast - how are people finding the yeast performing with hops added at the start like this?


 I add my dry hops at the start of primary fermentation when making hop-forward beers. Has been very successful and I've not noticed any fermentation stalling, or staling of aroma since I started doing this.


----------



## droid

rossbaker said:


> Not necessary IMO if the lid has a pressure relief valve. You should be able to get a hose clamp on there easily enough and tie the bag to that. I've even had luck using a plastic cable tie.



beautiful - thanks, I'll hose clamp it


----------



## droid

fdsaasdf said:


> I add my dry hops at the start of primary fermentation when making hop-forward beers. Has been very successful and I've not noticed any fermentation stalling, or staling of aroma since I started doing this.



it's a bit of a game-changer doing pressure ferments, can't wait till the weekend to try your technique, cheers


----------



## Mardoo

malt junkie said:


> Do you use the pure screens for both ferment and DH? oh and do I just slip that over the dip tube, for my kegmenters I need a way of holding the screen in place, was thinking of crimping them with pliers unless there are other suggestions?



They fit snugly on racetrack dip tubes, and need crimping on corny diptubes. The crimping makes me nervous as far as places for stuff to accumulate. However I haven’t worked out a better way yet. BTW I only have one on a corny, which I use for 10 L batches. 

I do have the screens on both ferment and dry hop. I figure on ferment it’ll keep any globs of yeast from clogging the post. However, I haven’t had that happen yet, so it may just be precautionary, aka paranoid


----------



## Mardoo

malt junkie said:


> my only issue is if the brew your spunding ends up infected then so are/is the keg/s purged this way.



I had a recent wild yeast infection in one if pressurised fermenters and dry hop keg. I am not looking forward to stripping them down and boiling everything in addition to chemical cleaning and sanitising.


----------



## malt junkie

Mardoo said:


> They fit snugly on racetrack dip tubes, and need crimping on corny diptubes. The crimping makes me nervous as far as places for stuff to accumulate. However I haven’t worked out a better way yet. BTW I only have one on a corny, which I use for 10 L batches.
> 
> I do have the screens on both ferment and dry hop. I figure on ferment it’ll keep any globs of yeast from clogging the post. However, I haven’t had that happen yet, so it may just be precautionary, aka paranoid


Have an IPA in cold crash, been that way for 10 days, arm in a cast so can't lift the bugger out! I'm get yeast blocks on it if I leave it for a day. Not too much of a concern .... it tastes so darn good, it may never get transfered(except to glass).


----------



## Dan Pratt

fdsaasdf said:


> I add my dry hops at the start of primary fermentation when making hop-forward beers. Has been very successful and I've not noticed any fermentation stalling, or staling of aroma since I started doing this.



are you doing this while under pressure ?


----------



## fdsaasdf

Dan Pratt said:


> are you doing this while under pressure ?


Oops, lost track of which thread I was in there - generally no this is in my brewbucket, not under pressure. I have done this once in a 23L keg with a spunding valve set to 10psi and the beer turned out fine but I have no idea how long it took to ferment as I was out of town for a couple of weeks.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I now have eight fermenters redundant since doing closed fermentation using cubes, was going to go down to Plastic Man to buy the heavy duty 30 litre plastic drum with the metal clamp lid.
Decided to pressure test one of the plastic fermenters I already have, filled with water and surprisingly took it up to 40 psi with no adverse effects. As I doubt very much I would be going higher than 10 to 15 psi have made the decision to use these as my fermenting vessels. The cubes I have filled with CO2 I am thinking of making a venturi to use on filling my bottles, searched the web and can't find anything where this has been trialed so fingers crossed this may work.


----------



## Zorco

interesting test WEAL.


----------



## f00b4r

Has Kee or any of the other fermentasaurus people expanded on why they chose such a narrow range spunding valve?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

f00b4r said:


> Has Kee or any of the other fermentasaurus people expanded on why they chose such a narrow range spunding valve?


Because it is the cheapest option, its worth paying the extra and getting away from the poppet type I need another one and I am going to get this one, it is expensive but being a diaphragm a lot more sensitive to the change in pressure.
https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/pneumatic-pressure-relief-valve-function-fittings/3989114/


----------



## wynnum1

wide eyed and legless said:


> I now have eight fermenters redundant since doing closed fermentation using cubes, was going to go down to Plastic Man to buy the heavy duty 30 litre plastic drum with the metal clamp lid.
> Decided to pressure test one of the plastic fermenters I already have, filled with water and surprisingly took it up to 40 psi with no adverse effects. As I doubt very much I would be going higher than 10 to 15 psi have made the decision to use these as my fermenting vessels. The cubes I have filled with CO2 I am thinking of making a venturi to use on filling my bottles, searched the web and can't find anything where this has been trialed so fingers crossed this may work.
> View attachment 111167
> 
> View attachment 111168


Plastic does deteriorate .


----------



## wide eyed and legless

wynnum1 said:


> Plastic does deteriorate .


So it does, but easily replaceable, and easily cleaned. 6 of the 8 I have I have had for 7 or 8 years, the only time they see any daylight is when they come out of the fermenting room for a scrub.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Hey wide eyed, i read somewhere that if you carbonate with co2 stores from fermentation it can cause off flavours. Not sure where i read it i will try get the link. I questioned it becuase the beer can be carbonated naturally by capping the vessel but apparently when its stored something changes and it needs to be cleaned or something.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

There is a discussion on Pro Brewer about the difference in the taste when carbonating naturally and tank CO2 it does give a better taste and mouth feel, its no different to carbonating in a bottle.
http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?31626-Best-Process-for-Naturally-Carbonated-Beer


----------



## Dan Pratt

wide eyed and legless said:


> There is a discussion on Pro Brewer about the difference in the taste when carbonating naturally and tank CO2 it does give a better taste and mouth feel, its no different to carbonating in a bottle.
> http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?31626-Best-Process-for-Naturally-Carbonated-Beer



turns out it was a AHB thread. https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/capturing-co2-from-fermentation.15629/


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Well there you go, I had read that before but the thing is it is so obvious, there is another article I read from around 1898 where they were discussing the same thing, the pressure was applied by submerging the blow off tube under mercury and getting about 7 psi pressure. The discussion covered recovering the alcohol which had been vented in the CO2 and also capturing the gas, both were considered to be savings and money makers for the brewery. 
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1898.tb00042.x/pdf


----------



## wynnum1

wide eyed and legless said:


> Well there you go, I had read that before but the thing is it is so obvious, there is another article I read from around 1898 where they were discussing the same thing, the pressure was applied by submerging the blow off tube under mercury and getting about 7 psi pressure. The discussion covered recovering the alcohol which had been vented in the CO2 and also capturing the gas, both were considered to be savings and money makers for the brewery.
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1898.tb00042.x/pdf


How do they make dry ice would think that would be one use for co2 .


----------



## wide eyed and legless

wynnum1 said:


> How do they make dry ice would think that would be one use for co2 .


Pretty sure I put a link in where the NASA technician who is also a home brewer made dry ice from CO2 it is what they will be doing on Mars for water I believe. There is also a test plant for making petrol from CO2, but the costs outweighed the returns.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Chris White having a chat about pressure fermenting.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2018/01/1...s-white-john-blichmann-beersmith-podcast-163/


----------



## Shadime

Im currently doing my first pressure ferment which is a 14 litre Lager fermented with Saflager W-34/70 .(picture attached).

I have the fermenting corny attached to a corny that im going to have as the serving keg and that has the spunding valve attached.

It has been fermenting for 7 days and has reduced from OG 1044 to SG 1014.
Temp was 15C until pressure reached 15psi and then temp was increased to 18C.
I had my first taste and I can taste and smell the yeast which has a slight banana smell and taste.

Couple of questions.
Being pressure fermented I would have thought it would have suppressed the esters?
Would the esters have been produced due to too much early fermentation happening before having both cornies pressurised to 15psi?

As im going to be transfering to the 2nd corny, which is filled with the CO2 produced by the yeast, will I get this smell with every beer I pour?

On a side note the flavour from the yeast compliments the beer.

Thanks for any feedback.

Cheers
Shadime


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Shadime said:


> Im currently doing my first pressure ferment which is a 14 litre Lager fermented with Saflager W-34/70 .(picture attached).
> 
> I have the fermenting corny attached to a corny that im going to have as the serving keg and that has the spunding valve attached.
> 
> It has been fermenting for 7 days and has reduced from OG 1044 to SG 1014.
> Temp was 15C until pressure reached 15psi and then temp was increased to 18C.
> I had my first taste and I can taste and smell the yeast which has a slight banana smell and taste.
> 
> Couple of questions.
> Being pressure fermented I would have thought it would have suppressed the esters?
> Would the esters have been produced due to too much early fermentation happening before having both cornies pressurised to 15psi?
> 
> As im going to be transfering to the 2nd corny, which is filled with the CO2 produced by the yeast, will I get this smell with every beer I pour?
> 
> On a side note the flavour from the yeast compliments the beer.
> 
> Thanks for any feedback.
> 
> Cheers
> Shadime


It only happens on the Saccharomyces cerevisiae not so much on lager yeast, if you kept the 2nd corny flushing throughout the fermentation you should't get the smell of the CO2. A lot of the sulphur compounds should have been driven off .


----------



## Dan Pratt

^ How much yeast did you pitch?


----------



## Shadime

Dan Pratt said:


> ^ How much yeast did you pitch?



I rehydrated the whole packet


----------



## mxd

for me, with 34/70 I ferment at 10 to 12, and I ignore it for a couple of weeks before I do a d-rest.

I've never had the banana from this yeast only the popcorn 

Leave it alone and it should turn all good


----------



## Dan Pratt

Shadime said:


> I rehydrated the whole packet



1 packet for a lager, is not enough. I typically would use that yeast W34/70 for a keg filler beer fermented at 15c using about 6g per L dry hopping to compete with the esters it throws off. Then use that yeast cake to make my lagers/helles or pilsners always targetting about 800 billion yeast cells for a nice cold 9c fermentation. 

To suppress the esters for a lager yeast its been said that > 25psi is the pressure required to achieve that outcome. 

Id suggest you now LAGER the beer you have made in the keg in the fridge for 30days and try it again, then if its still high on esters make a decision on the beer.


----------



## slcmorro

Dan Pratt said:


> To suppress the esters for a lager yeast its been said that > 25psi is the pressure required to achieve that outcome.



Disagree 110%. I've done several at 15psi and they've turned out great.


----------



## Haciluku

slcmorro said:


> Disagree 110%. I've done several at 15psi and they've turned out great.



+1

You can listen to Beersmith #163 - Pressure fermentation with Chris White and John Blichmann. They had done several experiment with different pressure on lager, ideal pressure is 15psi.


----------



## slcmorro

Dan Pratt said:


> 1 packet for a lager, is not enough.



Not entirely sure about that either. Mr Malty says for a 14L batch of 1.044 beer as per the OPs statement, 1.1 packs of 11.5gm of dry yeast is required.
Sure, more yeast is definitely better in most cases but considering he fermented at 15c I'd hazard a guess that the cell count made up for that .1 rather quickly.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Haciluku said:


> +1
> 
> You can listen to Beersmith #163 - Pressure fermentation with Chris White and John Blichmann. They had done several experiment with different pressure on lager, ideal pressure is 15psi.


But a more idealer pressure is no pressure at all, the judges could tell the difference along with Chris White that a Lager is a Lager, but in saying that I will be making a Faux Lager at 15 psi, and I know I will tell the difference but it could be nice.


----------



## Dan Pratt

Ok guys. Old mate has described a beer that has faults. I should of been more clear with response by way of suggesting to try increasing the pressure and increasing the yeast count.


----------



## Shadime

wide eyed and legless said:


> Chris White having a chat about pressure fermenting.
> http://beersmith.com/blog/2018/01/1...s-white-john-blichmann-beersmith-podcast-163/



This is what i used to determine the pressure.
Thanks all for your ideas, will try 2 packets yeast next time.
Will report back once it is transferred and chilled.

One other thing that I thought of is that the spunding valve i used was a PITA and the pressure fluctuated between 10-20 PSI so that may have played a part.

Cheers
Shadime


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Here is another podcast you may find useful.


----------



## Maheel

crazy thought coming...

if you pressure ferment PFK and daisy chain to a full corny as a empty co2 / blow off and capture the c02.

Then when you push the beer out of the PFK you...pushed water down the "out" dip tube of your blow off keg forcing the co2 out the "in" back into the PFV pushing the beer to the "drinking keg"

saves the co2 from your tank...

how much o2 would be in the blow off keg? i assume it mixes as it would be under pressure ?

may be crazy????


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Maheel said:


> crazy thought coming...
> 
> if you pressure ferment PFK and daisy chain to a full corny as a empty co2 / blow off and capture the c02.
> 
> Then when you push the beer out of the PFK you...pushed water down the "out" dip tube of your blow off keg forcing the co2 out the "in" back into the PFV pushing the beer to the "drinking keg"
> 
> saves the co2 from your tank...
> 
> how much o2 would be in the blow off keg? i assume it mixes as it would be under pressure ?
> 
> may be crazy????


I have done this with my pressure ferment cubes, its easy to compress gas using water (mains about 70psi) my worry was the oxygen in the water mixing with the CO2 but I drank the beer within 2 weeks with no noticeable oxidisation.


----------



## Maheel

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have doe this with my pressure ferment cubes, its easy to compress gas using water (mains about 70psi) my worry was the oxygen in the water mixing with the CO2 but I drank the beer within 2 weeks with no noticeable oxidisation.



interesting, i would have thought the co2 from the ferment would have a more co2 / o2 mix. but i got NFI really  

i probs will just continue to push it with co2 out of PVK but was something i thought about while reading the new parts of the thread


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Considering the yeast may take up the oxygen there should be no O2 coming out look I think it is a good idea but really needs someone more qualified to validate the idea.


----------



## Yuz

Maybe slightly OT, but I've just done a 28L 1.040 batch and set to 15PSI, in 40 odd hours since pitching W34/70 (15g) it has dropped to 11PSI and is sitting at this ATM... Krausen has settled alot as well. An identical gravity-brewed batch would have Krausen hanging around for three days at least... It fermentation slowing down or have I killed the yeast?
I don't have temp control but Melb weather has been fairly stable and the brew is well insulated.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I don't think the yeast like it, I did a stout last brew and applied to much pressure I believe, looked to be finished but 24 hours after dropping the pressure off fermentation started again and dropped 4 points more. It definitely suppresses the krausen though.


----------



## Yuz

Weal, yeah I had that suspicion - so I've gradually built up the pressure so the yeast can adjust... I'll also slowly reduce the pressure once this batch is kegged so I can re-use these yeasties. 
Odd that the common perception is pressure brewing is meant speed up the process - but it seems to be the opposite as the yeast is suppressed?
Earlier post on this thread suggests that W34/70 (and other strains) had no issues at much higher 21PSI, and reading other resources I thought around 15PSI would be the happy medium? Well, we'll see how it turns out


----------



## wide eyed and legless

What are you brewing, and did you watch the podcast I put up on the bulk buy thread? WLP 925 for a lager yeast at one Bar.


----------



## Yuz

Weal, it's a lager-like brew, partial BIAB: Pale Ale Malt 1.5kg + 1kg Munich + Caraaroma 100g & Hallertau MF late in boil.
Plus Coopers Lager Can. I'm yet to go full AG so I've been doing half BIAB / half can for now...
I've been using dry Yeasts so I went with something familiar so I can suss out the whole pressure ferment process 
I'll have another look at the podcast to understand it a bit better.


----------



## droid

Yuz said:


> Maybe slightly OT, but I've just done a 28L 1.040 batch and set to 15PSI, in 40 odd hours since pitching W34/70 (15g) it has dropped to 11PSI and is sitting at this ATM... Krausen has settled alot as well. An identical gravity-brewed batch would have Krausen hanging around for three days at least... It fermentation slowing down or have I killed the yeast?
> I don't have temp control but Melb weather has been fairly stable and the brew is well insulated.



1.040OG ? it could be done, what's your expected FG? 

15PSI is no problem, I brew all mine at 15PSI and once the pressure drops it's done. 1.040 is around the gravity you might use for a yeast starter and with the right amount of yeast 40hours, especially under pressure could be enough. If you had been fermenting at 9C this time-frame could be a problem but if at ambient 22 or something then yeah.

Can't comment on the resulting taste of 34/70 at that temp tho


----------



## Yuz

Hey Droid, the projected FG is 1.009, I'll check it later today (72hours after pitching); 
I always hydrate the yeast, and this one was a quick starter as usual (20deg wort) - active visible ferment within four hours but geez this is QUICK if it has infact chewed through all the fermentables! The pressure's been sitting at 8PSI since yesterday.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Yuz said:


> Hey Droid, the projected FG is 1.009, I'll check it later today (72hours after pitching);
> I always hydrate the yeast, and this one was a quick starter as usual (20deg wort) - active visible ferment within four hours but geez this is QUICK if it has infact chewed through all the fermentables! The pressure's been sitting at 8PSI since yesterday.


So how is it going? I still have yet to do a lager in my system, will be soon, I have quite a bit of pilsner malt.


----------



## Yuz

Hey Weal, my super-accurate (and calibrated!) eBay refractometer read @ 1.016 on Saturday. So in real terms, considering the correction factor it could well be done fermenting by now.
The pressure has also dropped to 2PSI (I'm assuming absorbed by the brew?) and is staying on that since sampling - I wasn't sure if it was meant to be maintained constant through the fermentation?
I'll let it sit for for a couple more days, keg and force carb it. If it's a stuff up - lesson learnt. But smelling the sample it seemed ok.
I'm looking to re-use this yeast too.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I presume you are doing this in your Fermentasaurus, are you dropping the pressure or is it dropping by itself?


----------



## Digga

Would have to say that if you have kept the brew at the same temp and your dropping psi then you have a leak somewhere. Only when you drop the temp should it absorb Co2. Correct me if I'm wrong here.


----------



## Yuz

Weal - yes, in the Fermentasaurus. The pressure has dropped gradually by itself - whether the co2 is leaking or got absorbed I'm not sure, but it's still maintaining some (minimal) pressure.
Digga - my understanding is that co2 is still absorbed (at a slower rate) at room temp? I'm yet to setup a fermenting fridge...


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I agree with Digga you must have a leak, the idea is let the pressure out while fermenting and then apply pressure to carbonate your brew towards the end.


----------



## Yuz

I think the leak culprit is Fermentasaurus' top gasket - took me four goes to seal it up (using KegLube as well) but obviously still leaks through a little.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Wonder if that's the reason it is being revamped? Is the gasket quite hard or a little soft?


----------



## Yuz

wide eyed and legless said:


> Wonder if that's the reason it is being revamped? Is the gasket quite hard or a little soft?


The Gasket doesn't hold shape once in place - the flanges deform once the top Cap is pressing down on it. Plus as the Collar is screwed on, it grabs and pulls on Gasket edges. I can only get it in place properly if I force down the top cap while fixing the Collar. Defo needs a Revision B IMHO, unless they have already?


----------



## markp

Yuz said:


> The Gasket doesn't hold shape once in place - the flanges deform once the top Cap is pressing down on it. Plus as the Collar is screwed on, it grabs and pulls on Gasket edges. I can only get it in place properly if I force down the top cap while fixing the Collar. Defo needs a Revision B IMHO, unless they have already?



There is a right way up for the seal and a wrong way, there is a lip on the inside edge of the seal which sits inside the neck of the fermenter and this stops the seal pushing out and deforming. 
Not saying that you are not putting it the right way up but just a thought as mine seals first time every time without any mucking around, I place the seal on the cap, place the cap on the fermenter and then screw the collar on tight and all’s good. 
Cheers.


----------



## Yuz

markp said:


> There is a right way up for the seal and a wrong way, there is a lip on the inside edge of the seal which sits inside the neck of the fermenter and this stops the seal pushing out and deforming.
> Not saying that you are not putting it the right way up but just a thought as mine seals first time every time without any mucking around, I place the seal on the cap, place the cap on the fermenter and then screw the collar on tight and all’s good.
> Cheers.


There may be a batch / manufacturing tolerance issues with the one I've got. It certainly isn't an operator's error lol


----------



## wide eyed and legless

It has been an occurring problem in the threads regarding Fermentasauri


----------



## wide eyed and legless

As a few will have already read the posts and technique of pressure fermenting in a cube, going to be brewing a hoppy AIPA , not often I do them, but needed a way to introduce the hops under pressure without venting the cube.
So have made a hop dropping chamber to dry hop and no pressure lost, simple and cheap to make will also adapt to other systems.

Under pressure.




Hop dropper fitted, insert hops into nipple, 150 mm should be enough this one is overkill at 300 mm, fit top cap, I have fitted a barb on mine to divert gas from ferment to the dropper not really necessary, open ball valve releasing the hops into fermenter. Close ball valve job done.


----------



## dent

That's a pretty good idea, nice work.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Tested this method today for dropping the hops as I didn't need to add any pressure to force the hop pellets through, worked well, will it work on a fermenasarus, yes it will.
Pet bottle into a 1" BSP thread, easy and cheap.


----------



## GeeTee

wide eyed and legless said:


> Tested this method today for dropping the hops as I didn't need to add any pressure to force the hop pellets through, worked well, will it work on a fermenasarus, yes it will.
> Pet bottle into a 1" BSP thread, easy and cheap.
> View attachment 113284


Quick question. Wher do you get the barb fittings and how do you install them ? Thanks


----------



## altone

wide eyed and legless said:


> Tested this method today for dropping the hops as I didn't need to add any pressure to force the hop pellets through, worked well, will it work on a fermenasarus, yes it will.
> Pet bottle into a 1" BSP thread, easy and cheap.



Now I like that idea - just off to Bunnings


----------



## wide eyed and legless

GeeTee said:


> Quick question. Wher do you get the barb fittings and how do you install them ? Thanks


Got the barbs, silicone washers and nuts from Keg King, to fit the barb I cut and re welded a spanner to fit through the opening of cube into a position where I wanted the barb, hold the nut in position and screw in the barb.


----------



## GeeTee

wide eyed and legless said:


> Got the barbs, silicone washers and nuts from Keg King, to fit the barb I cut and re welded a spanner to fit through the opening of cube into a position where I wanted the barb, hold the nut in position and screw in the barb.


Thanks for that. Going to Perth next Friday so will see if I can pick up some then.


----------



## Wolfman

Wow. That was a lot to absorb in one day.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Have been reading some good articles lately, and though I do like to capture the co2 to use to replace the vacuum being generated by the pour from the beer engine or gravity pour from the secondary a little pressure is needed. From what I have read the opposite is better aligned for producing quality beer, stirring while fermentation is in progress can reduce the fermenting time by 12 hours, reason being the dissolved co2 is being driven from the wort keeping the yeast from stressing out. Funny how the by product from the yeast's own activity can impede fermentation, though in a natural environment the co2 would be dispersing any way.
I made a faux pilsner and while looking the goods I think anyone tasting it could clearly pick the difference between a pilsner fermented at a lower temperature for a number of weeks and the faux pilsner fermented over a week with pressure applied. As home brewers I don't think time producing a good beer or lager should come into the equation.

Might look the goods but even a novice taster would be able to pick it out in a crowd.
Let yeast do its thing.


----------



## awfulknauful

I have only just started getting into this, don't move the goal posts WEAL.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

awfulknauful said:


> I have only just started getting into this, don't move the goal posts WEAL.


I am not moving the goal posts, I will still capture the co2 being produced, but maybe increase the size of the barb to reduce the pressure, (although it isn't much) to the wort.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I am supposing you can tell us where to buy a unitank?


----------



## Reg Holt

wide eyed and legless said:


> I am supposing you can tell us where to buy a unitank?


Wouldn't be Texas Brewing would it?


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> I am supposing you can tell us where to buy a unitank?


Hey, Weal. Not intending to be condescending at all, but do you have h/w capable of pressure fermenting?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I tried, and still do occasionally close of the pressure towards the end of the ferment, I do it in the cubes I believe there are posts with pics somewhere in this thread. Capturing the co2 is what I was after more than anything, if I use the cube on the hand pump or even just pour out of the secondary I use the captured gas to take up the vacuum from the pour.
Dissolved co2 doesn't kill yeast what it does is it stops the yeast working, could be the reason why you fell short on the gravity. The first one I did I stuffed up the beer became bright after only a few days in the secondary, didn't hit the target FG and lost the yeasty esters. 

First go without a spunding valve.


After a bout 3 days or so in the secondary.


I think this was the last pint.


Pretty sure the posts are in this thread, and also pressure tested the cubes to 26 psi I believe it was.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

A good read, a bit pricy but worth it.
https://www.amazon.com.au/Brewing-Y...keywords=Fermentation+and+Yeast+Chris+Boulton


----------



## captnhaddock

wide eyed and legless said:


> I am supposing you can tell us where to buy a unitank?



It's rather ironic that TB got the boot for spamming, but KK (or whomever it is) seems to continue to blithely keep on with their spam.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

captnhaddock said:


> It's rather ironic that TB got the boot for spamming, but KK (or whomever it is) seems to continue to blithely keep on with their spam.


Who is TB? And where is the KK spam?


----------



## captnhaddock

tb = texasbrewer (or whatever his name was) / KK = kegking (or was it Kegland who's been really bad about spamming as of the last 6 months or so?) regardless, the point was that the Southern Yank got 'yanked'... for spamming, where as the form sponsor seems to get wet noodle lashing.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

I can see where that post is missing, Texas Brewing. Keg Land have had some posts removed for dragging up old threads and posting on them. If Texas Brewing is/was advertising as a retailer and not a forum sponsor then his post would have been removed, I doubt whether he has been given the Tijuana.


----------



## Reg Holt

Hells Bells, surprised a cube could take so much pressure.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Heavy duty, you know when to stand back when the bottom pops out.


----------



## krz

Report.

Have just fermented an all Grain using recipe http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/17560/brulosophers-best-blonde-ale
This is 42 litres using the Guten 50L, and I attained an incredible 1.054 using wlp029 yeast (2 packets - 1 was on the stir plate for 24 hours).
After 5 days, I was 1.010 temperature 19.4. I ramped up yesterday another degree to 20.5, and its sat like that now for 24h. Im thinking of another day at 20.5 before cooling.
Pressure ferment is 15psi.

I took a sample 10min ago, and it smells like honey, so I guess thats pentainedione.
How long do you reckon I should leave it?


----------



## MHB

Could be a lot of things
From Complete beer fault guide





But I'd hazard a guess that VDK's are a good bet (sure you meant 2,3-pentanedione)
Again with the fault guide.
Mark


----------



## ShonkytonkBrewer

wide eyed and legless said:


> , I doubt whether he has been given the Tijuana.



Why would you doubt it happening to anyone...it's happened to many more for much less (or no good reason actually)


----------



## wide eyed and legless

ShonkytonkBrewer said:


> Why would you doubt it happening to anyone...it's happened to many more for much less (or no good reason actually)


The post was inocuous, I think it was more the fact he was a retailer that the post was deleted, not anything new about that on here, Keg Land got their fist post deleted but didn't get banned, just had to pay the retailers fee's.


----------



## Reg Holt

I doubt I could ever be sold on the idea of pressure fermenting, I would have to consider the viability of the yeast. Putting an unnecessary stress on yeast could only return an unsatisfactory outcome.


----------



## Gibbo411

See you'd think so, but so many people, myself included, have returned great outcomes (yeast type dependant) with this method.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Isn't there a decent amount of pressure at the bottom of large scale (commercial) fermenters anyway?


----------



## Fro-Daddy

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-879X2005000800012
"A pressure of 50 MPa is not sufficient to kill or to alter yeast cell morphology."
15psi = 0.1MPa

I only skimmed, but they were doing much higher pressures and temperatures to what we would do.
If anyone feels like reading it and understands it, please summarise haha.


----------



## Reg Holt

Ah yes there is, but now you are talking of hydro static pressure, highly unlikely you will come across that in a home brew situation. The pressure which is under discussion here is the top pressure of the co2, not allowing it to vent causes it to become dissolved into the wort. This has two adverse disadvantages on the fermentation the volatile substances are not allowed to vent with the co2 and the dissolved co2 itself will stall the yeast growth.


Fro-Daddy said:


> http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-879X2005000800012
> "A pressure of 50 MPa is not sufficient to kill or to alter yeast cell morphology."
> 15psi = 0.1MPa
> 
> I only skimmed, but they were doing much higher pressures and temperatures to what we would do.
> If anyone feels like reading it and understands it, please summarise haha.


Again you are discussing hydro static pressure, this is not the issue here.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

Ahh I see...
As you were.


----------



## Mall

Reg Holt said:


> Ah yes there is, but now you are talking of hydro static pressure, highly unlikely you will come across that in a home brew situation. The pressure which is under discussion here is the top pressure of the co2, not allowing it to vent causes it to become dissolved into the wort. This has two adverse disadvantages on the fermentation the volatile substances are not allowed to vent with the co2 and the dissolved co2 itself will stall the yeast growth.
> 
> Again you are discussing hydro static pressure, this is not the issue here.



I have been pressure fermenting (40L batches, temp controlled 18C) for over 2 years now in a 50L sanke keg.....10-12psi at most using recultured US05; never had a prob, fast and efficient, magnificent product!!


----------



## Reg Holt

Mall said:


> I have been pressure fermenting (40L batches, temp controlled 18C) for over 2 years now in a 50L sanke keg.....10-12psi at most using recultured US05; never had a prob, fast and efficient, magnificent product!!


If you like what you are doing, keep doing it, have you entered it into comps?


----------



## Gibbo411

What in the case where a spunding valve where the excess pressure is released?


----------



## Reg Holt

Gibbo411 said:


> What in the case where a spunding valve where the excess pressure is released?


From what I have been reading many home brewers are starting off setting the spunding valve to 15 even 20 PSI. It has been mentioned before that many breweries, especially craft breweries only cap at the end of fermentation so as carbonate their beer. I doubt whether there are any breweries fermenting at 15 PSI, not just because that most of the fermentation tanks have a safe pressure limit of 15 PSI.
I am sure that if fermenting in a closed vessel and keeping it at 15 PSI or less and continually producing satisfactory beer in a shorter time frame the breweries would be all over it.


----------



## Mall

Reg Holt said:


> I am sure that if fermenting in a closed vessel and keeping it at 15 PSI or less and continually producing satisfactory beer in a shorter time frame the breweries would be all over it.


I let pressure build to just over 12, sometimes lower, then open spunding valve to maintain the 10-12 psi range. Slightly higher ferment temp upwards of 21-22C give a quick ferment 3-4 days...then 5C cold crash and ready to drink.


----------



## Gibbo411

I have successfully brewed a lager @15psi (25c) in 5 days 2 days cold crash.
What I'm getting mainly from this conversation is if it works for you... [emoji106]


----------



## Reg Holt

As I said before if you are happy with what you make thats fine, I am not here to convert anyone just pointing out a few facts. I am not in a rush to produce a beer just to produce a good beer which I can enter into competitions with a good chance of winning, or at least getting a place.


Gibbo411 said:


> I have successfully brewed a lager @15psi (25c) in 5 days 2 days cold crash.
> What I'm getting mainly from this conversation is if it works for you... [emoji106]


There are many ways of measuring success, speed isn't one of them, unless of course you are in a race.


----------



## Gibbo411

Agree, some people are just in a rush by nature sometimes.
I for one just like to experiment, in saying that, apart from what I have already mentioned I have a Barleywine that I will not touch until Christmas time.


----------



## Reg Holt

Gibbo411 said:


> Agree, some people are just in a rush by nature sometimes.
> I for one just like to experiment, in saying that, apart from what I have already mentioned I have a Barleywine that I will not touch until Christmas time.


I have tried that with the strong ales, by the time it comes time to drink them I will only have a dozen or so left.


----------



## Gibbo411

Reg Holt said:


> I have tried that with the strong ales, by the time it comes time to drink them I will only have a dozen or so left.


One of those plan ahead kind of things, by the time you're drinking a batch you've done 3-4 others since that you have to wait for. Figuratively speaking of course.


----------



## altone

Reg Holt said:


> From what I have been reading many home brewers are starting off setting the spunding valve to 15 even 20 PSI. It has been mentioned before that many breweries, especially craft breweries only cap at the end of fermentation so as carbonate their beer. I doubt whether there are any breweries fermenting at 15 PSI, not just because that most of the fermentation tanks have a safe pressure limit of 15 PSI.
> I am sure that if fermenting in a closed vessel and keeping it at 15 PSI or less and continually producing satisfactory beer in a shorter time frame the breweries would be all over it.



i do pressure ferments mainly on malt driven beers, usually at zero for the first 3 days, then set spunding to 10psi or so.
True, my aim is to speed up the ferment by increasing pressure and temperature.
I've done side by side comparisons and cannot identify which is fermented in the usual manner or under pressure.
Having said that, I'm no beer judge. 
Perhaps I'm hitting the sweet spot of giving the yeast free range then gradually building up carbonation.

Home brewers conditions are far removed from commercial breweries, so that comparison is moot.

Many have had good results under varying pressures and temperatures.

I do think though it's usually done for speed/convenience rather than trying to brew something "better" than under normal fermentation.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

altone said:


> i do pressure ferments mainly on malt driven beers, usually at zero for the first 3 days, then set spunding to 10psi or so.
> True, my aim is to speed up the ferment by increasing pressure and temperature.
> I've done side by side comparisons and cannot identify which is fermented in the usual manner or under pressure.
> Well the reason you wouldn't be tasting any difference is you are doing it as Teri Fahrendorf suggested it should be done, let the pressure vent and cap at the end of fermentation, as was mentioned earlier there are those who pitch the yeast then immediately restrict the venting of the co2.
> Here is Teri Fahrendorfs web site, the original post on Closed pressurised fermentation is in the side bar.
> http://www.terifahrendorf.com/index.html


----------



## krz

I think the important thing to remember, that because of the ability to easily pressure ferment these days,pressure fermenting is somewhat of an experiment.
Someone living in Germany in the 1800's might be gobsmacked that its possible to cool a beer in a device that makes "things cool" rather than in a cave where it was left to lager.
Likewise, us homebrewers we can now buy CO2 in a bottle, and carbonate or use it to serve our beers. This is not like it was in the old days.

I remember my dad telling me a story, he lived in Berlin during the war years. His dad sent him down to the local pub with a bottle "growler", and had him fill it up and bring back home. 

What Im trying to say, theres a possability that pressure fermenting is a good thing, maybe its not, but we are the experimenters.

Long live Home Brew


----------



## Maheel

Reg Holt said:


> As I said before if you are happy with what you make thats fine, I am not here to convert anyone just pointing out a few facts. I am not in a rush to produce a beer just to produce a good beer which I can enter into competitions with a good chance of winning, or at least getting a place.There are many ways of measuring success, speed isn't one of them, unless of course you are in a race.



Hey Reg

1st I don't enter comps, my beer makes me feel happy without others judging, but each to their own i also reckon and good on people for entering comps, i raise a glass to you 

Something i have found along with a bit quicker to the glass if you want it quicker is that pressure fermenting actually means i take the handling of the beer more seriously by default.

less oxy getting in via cling wrap (and i thought cling wrap was a revolutionary idea ), plastic fermenter etc etc
As i pressure transfer to cleaned kegs with CO2 "blanket" i have been lowering 02 exposure more than i ever did either bottling or gravity filling kegs. Cleaning SS , beerlines and disconects IMO is easier than plastic taps and fermenters etc

I feel it's helping me create some of the best hop forwards ales i have ever made (that's just me and the odd mate tasting)

I reckon if you have the gear, consider getting a PRV and giving it a go, great way of furthering the journey of Home brewing


----------



## Kenf

I did a small batch ( 5litres) Citra IPA in an old converted 9 litre keg.
Let the pressure build up to 10 Psi day 5 cold crashed day 6 ready to drink! I did transfer it to a 5 litre keg for storage reasons, and it tasted fine!
I’m no judge and a guru could possibly find faults but it was a great experiment (done twice now) and it only cost me the price of the Spunging gear (Kegland). The keg was one that I no longer use due to its diameter so really nothing lost!
I am certainly going to go bigger (I have a 19 litre fat keg) and I also want to try going to cubes for cooling.
It’s fun experimenting!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Pressurising the co2 has been around since the 1890's, they restricted the pressure by immersing the blow off tube into mercury. In 120 years don't you think it has been experimented on countless times, if there was any merit in it it would be in wide spread use throughout the brewing industry. Go back and just see where it originated from among the home brew community.
The land where it started, 50% of the population believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were husband and wife, 12% of the population believe that Joan of Arc was Noah's wife, all it takes is one home brewer to declare that he did a pressurised ferment, fermenting at 25 PSI and it worked out brilliantly and before you know it the followers start to jump on the bandwagon. Same country some clown says he will make America great again, and what do you know, he is made president. Followers misinterpretation.


----------



## Kenf

Wow!


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> ....In 120 years don't you think it has been experimented on countless times, if there was any merit in it it would be in wide spread use throughout the brewing industry...



For thousands of years, the people thought the earth was flat and that there were many gods.


----------



## brewermp

I don’t want to derail this subject anymore by pointing out the truth . However pressure fermenting has been proven to reduce the chance of off flavours in your beer and has been shown to be safe on yeast up to 1 bar of pressure. Have a watch of this video if you are a naysayer.


----------



## Reg Holt

Altone quote.-Home brewers conditions are far removed from commercial breweries, so that comparison is moot.
Not necessarily true, the condition of the yeast is of utmost importance,whether a home brewer or a commercial / craft brewery owner, yeast is a very hardy fungi but is inclined to shock, whether it be from oxygen, heat, pressure etc.



brewermp said:


> I don’t want to derail this subject anymore by pointing out the truth . However pressure fermenting has been proven to reduce the chance of off flavours in your beer and has been shown to be safe on yeast up to 1 bar of pressure. Have a watch of this video if you are a naysayer.



I have watched the video, the yeast used is the higher pressure yeast WLP925 15 PSI maximum it is well known that Saccharomyces Uvarum will withstand pressure better than Saccharomyces Cerevisiae, which does not really tolerate barely any pressure. As pointed out in a previous post this video is no more than a promotional video. If you want the facts about what effect dissolved co2 has on yeast look to the scientific papers not promotional videos. Also take note the taste test at the end.


----------



## Reg Holt

Thanks for that post WEAL. Closed System Pressurized Fermentation. I can now see clearly where the fermenting under pressure actually came from, my wife does the same thing, read a heading and instead of reading the article make up the story she thinks goes with it.
I will now file fermenting under pressure, along with boiling wort in a pressure cooker, and Raw Beer.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

krz said:


> For thousands of years, the people thought the earth was flat and that there were many gods.


Thousands of years ago the people belived there was a supreme being, know what a lot still do.


----------



## Maheel

wide eyed and legless said:


> Thousands of years ago the people belived there was a supreme being, know what a lot still do.



Yeah what ever happened to Nick JD ? he was the god of all grain for 30 bucks?

Bloody legendary AHBrewer that bloke... feels like 1000yr ago 

Did Bribie B set down the 8 commandments of BIAB or no chilling ?

I gotta get my brewing gods in order... 

Come on guys lets keep real-idiot-gen out of brewing............. worse than voting for Clive...


----------



## MHB

Actually I don't miss Nick even a little bit. From what I hear he personally generated more complaints to moderators than everyone else on AHB put together, I think the final straw was him suggesting someone off themselves, that or making death threats.... or him being him possibly both.
As a brewer I think he knew sweet FA, and proved it by posting loudly and rudely a lot.

Bribe on the other hand, along with a few others is missed.
Mark


----------



## malt and barley blues

Maheel said:


> Come on guys lets keep real-idiot-gen out of brewing............. worse than voting for Clive...


I think they both were just injecting a bit of levity into the thread, damn sight better than death threats.


----------



## altone

Reg Holt said:


> Altone quote.-Home brewers conditions are far removed from commercial breweries, so that comparison is moot.
> Not necessarily true, the condition of the yeast is of utmost importance,whether a home brewer or a commercial / craft brewery owner, yeast is a very hardy fungi but is inclined to shock, whether it be from oxygen, heat, pressure etc.



Well yes. we all need to ensure the yeast we use is in good shape and in adequate quantities regardless of whether we are producing a few litres or thousands.
But home brewers have great scope to be backyard experimenters and try things the commercial entities may not be willing to spend the time/resources on.

I believe the recent growth in sales of different beer styles might to some extent have been driven by home brewers experimenting.

Now, the pressure ferment thing may turn out to be a fad like NEIPA [  ], but it seems to have some merit if the many videos on the subject and my personal experiences are anything to go by.

Like most techniques it can and will be overdone or done badly which could seriously stress the yeast.
But it's surely worth playing with for those who like to try new things.



> I can now see clearly where the fermenting under pressure actually came from, my wife does the same thing, read a heading and instead of reading the article make up the story she thinks goes with it.



I think that skill is an integral part of the female human genome


----------



## wide eyed and legless

altone said:


> Well yes. we all need to ensure the yeast we use is in good shape and in adequate quantities regardless of whether we are producing a few litres or thousands.
> But home brewers have great scope to be backyard experimenters and try things the commercial entities may not be willing to spend the time/resources on.
> 
> I believe the recent growth in sales of different beer styles might to some extent have been driven by home brewers experimenting.
> 
> Now, the pressure ferment thing may turn out to be a fad like NEIPA [  ], but it seems to have some merit if the many videos on the subject and my personal experiences are anything to go by.
> 
> Like most techniques it can and will be overdone or done badly which could seriously stress the yeast.
> But it's surely worth playing with for those who like to try new things.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that skill is an integral part of the female human genome


I have posted this paper before and I am pretty sure it was in this thread. Commisioned by Courage Brewery.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1987.tb04530.x


----------



## Reg Holt

altone said:


> I think that skill is an integral part of the female human genome



It would be good if they could get it right though, I would only have to read the headlines and she could tell me all about it. Save my eyes.


----------



## altone

Reg Holt said:


> It would be good if they could get it right though, I would only have to read the headlines and she could tell me all about it. Save my eyes.



Sadly it's part of the "you should know" genome structure.
What's wrong? answer above
Why are you upset? Well if you don't know I'm not going to tell you!
If I knew .... no no! Sorry for being insensitive darling.

You know the drill 

edit: sorry, totally OT


----------



## Kenf

I have been thinking about what WEAL said (& the life of BRIEN clip).
Not quite clear who the sarcasm was actually aimed at?
I just wanted to clarify, I like TRYING techniques I have not tried before and see what difference it makes! I call this experimenting!
I did actually work for a company who made beer(&wine & milk & juice & cheese) and even though I had made home brew (gloop in cans) for over 20 years, they taught me the art of appreciating beer ( I guess all the free samples and talks from the head brewers helped).
So as a non qualified brewer I actually get excited by new (old) techniques & the fact that the beers I produce are not only liked by my family and friends but are consistently judge to be better than the commercial stuff!
I would actually like to gain some quals in brewing but at 57 years of age, it would only be for my own benefit - because after working in the commercial world I have no wish to return.
So I guess in a long winded way, if you were annoyed by my use of the word experiment - I apologise. And Life of Brian is really funny!


----------



## krz

Kenf said:


> I have been thinking about what WEAL said (& the life of BRIEN clip).
> Not quite clear who the sarcasm was actually aimed at?
> ....


More thank likely me, but that said I have a thick skin and I reckon (judging by the amount of abuse WEAL has received), WEAL is even Thicker (skin I meant).

I agree with you Kenf, experiments are fun. Some beers are good, some are bad. I even drink my bad ones (except for one).

I am a MASSIVE fan on Monty Python.


----------



## Kenf

Oh I know he does! 
Cheers mate


----------



## wide eyed and legless

It wasn't aimed at anyone, it is difficult to avoid the basic framework of society, when we left the trees there were two parties, 'leaders' and 'followers', as we advanced as humans a third party came into play,
the 'questioners'. The 'questioners' were dealt with pretty quickly. The followers remain the largest party, With democracy and education there are many more 'questioners', but even so there are still people who will blindly follow something which science has proved not to be beneficial, and without any scientific evidence to say that it is. Hence the Life of Brian clip aptly named 'Followers Misinterpretation'


----------



## Reg Holt

Kenf said:


> I have been thinking about what WEAL said (& the life of BRIEN clip).
> Not quite clear who the sarcasm was actually aimed at?
> I just wanted to clarify, I like TRYING techniques I have not tried before and see what difference it makes! I call this experimenting!
> And Life of Brian is really funny!



I can give you a good experiment, make a pilsner/lager, use half to ferment under pressure the other half ferment and lager in the normal way.
For an ale yeast make a Belgian witbier do as above half brewed using pressure the other half at normal fermenting temp.
When complete and conditioned do a taste test side by side.


----------



## Fro-Daddy

I think Short Circuited Brewers was doing a side by side test, I never saw the results though.


----------



## Reg Holt

Fro-Daddy said:


> I think Short Circuited Brewers was doing a side by side test, I never saw the results though.


Would be good to see them, especially if it was done as a group.
Threw a curved ball in there with the Belgian Witbier even a novice would notice the difference in the taste test, and they really should see a noticeable difference with the lager/pilsner.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

The pilsner I brewed was very distinctive there wasn't the clean fermentation profile that should have been there, I wouldn't bother brewing one again but I will still continue to collect the co2 gas.


----------



## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> ...when we left the trees there were two parties, 'leaders' and 'followers', as we advanced as humans a third party came into play,\'



Thats


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## Reg Holt

Holy Moly, I have never seen communication by youtube expanding on the Life of Brian theme. I could get to enjoy this.


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## wide eyed and legless

You are getting the hang of it Reg.


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## Aletheist

Blind triangle tests have been carried out Brülosophy I think.. the result was insignificant from memory.. ie tasters could not tell the difference. I kegged a German Pilsner last night that was pressure fermented at 12 deg C, although it was low psi (2-3), then ramped up to ale temp when it reached 50% expected attenuation and about 8psi. 2 weeks after brew day and It’s a cracker.


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## Aletheist

Here is the article:

http://brulosophy.com/2018/08/30/im...ion-on-a-lager-beer-the-bru-club-xbmt-series/

Edit: noting they used White Labs high pressure lager yeast. 

I used WLP830


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## wide eyed and legless

What you are making is an average beer as opposed to a good beer, in this podcast the pressure fermented lager was picked out from the blind test. Blichman said himself that you will not make a genuine lager using this method and Chris White suggested, he would like to see some sort of open style fermenter on the market. Why, because he knows that the yeast will not perform in top pressure conditions. http://beersmith.com/blog/2018/01/1...s-white-john-blichmann-beersmith-podcast-163/

I have asked John Palmer his thoughts on pressurised fermenting, his reply was, 'why would you do that'.


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## Aletheist

I guess my point with this example was that tasters could not tell the difference. There are examples that support both sides of the argument. I’m a proud fencesitter with most things in life, so as to not get too clouded in bias.

I’ve made many an average beer in my lifetime (most with conventional processes), and I wouldn’t attribute ‘cracker’ to something that wasn’t comparatively good. I’m also perennially my beers’ own worst critic.

I was very happy with this beer, and expected it to be ‘average’. 

To answer Palmers question, I’d say “because surprisingly, it worked quite well for me, and was relatively quick from brew day to glass”. Rather rational answers I would have thought.


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## wide eyed and legless

If you have made a German Pilsner in a traditional way and then with a pressure fermeted quick turn around beer and you don't notice any difference then just stick with the pressure ferment.
I have done both and the difference to my palate was substantial enough not to bother trying pressure ferment again. Not me that has any bias just my palate.


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## Aletheist

Fair call.. This was the first time I brewed this particular recipe (also a German Pils) and I'm that happy with the result I'm reluctant to ferment and condition at traditional temps in the fear that it will change my method for this particular recipe... my time,chamber space and keezer tap rotation requirements are too in demand for the foreseeable future! 

No doubt I will at some stage though. It will be interesting to see any difference, and if so whether it is comparatively positive enough to my palate to justify the extra time.

IMO beer style/recipe could be a big variable in determining whether a pressure ferment is worth it or not. ie a Dunkel or Schwarzbier could potentially mask things that can't be hidden in say a Pilsner or Helles. I guess that is why I was rather surprised with the outcome of this recipe, which from memory was 100% Premium pils and traditional noble hop profile. I can't pick anything from the yeast activity that seems unpleasant or out of whack.. early on I felt sulphur could be playing a bit too much of a part but it has really mellowed.


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## wide eyed and legless

The pressure from the co2 will suppress the esters of the yeast.


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## Reg Holt

What would be good is for someone to


wide eyed and legless said:


> The pressure from the co2 will suppress the esters of the yeast.


You look like you are flagging WEAL.Look on the bright side you aren't the one who is having to drink it.


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## Kenf

Good morning all, I have decided that those with greater knowledge are probably right. But since I do brew some small (5 litre) batches and now that I have a 9 litre keg/ fermenter, I will continue to use the process! In fact I put down a Saison yesterday and it’s doing nicely. 
I have enjoyed the conversation though 
Cheers


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## ridge runner

Kenf said:


> Good morning all, I have decided that those with greater knowledge are probably right. But since I do brew some small (5 litre) batches and now that I have a 9 litre keg/ fermenter, I will continue to use the process! In fact I put down a Saison yesterday and it’s doing nicely.
> I have enjoyed the conversation though
> Cheers


Hiw did the saison turn out . I made one also but stayed at 19deg and 10psi for the ferment . Cant seem to find any info regarding using a spunding valve at higher temps?


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## Kenf

It turned out ok - but I have such a back log of kegs to drink it’s still waiting to be drunk!
I think 19 is ok for Saison 
There is a lot of conflicting info out there, I’m sought of forging my own path


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## ozgib

What sort of pressure should you aim for when fermenting under pressure? I mainly make German style beer using lager yeast?


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## devoutharpist

Morning everyone. 

I recently got a fermentasaurus snubnose that i plan to use on my next brew. How has everyone been fermenting under pressure using these units?

Do you just chuck the yeast into the wort and then close it up? Do you add any CO2 once you close it, or add a spunding valve so it doesn't get too pressurised??


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## wide eyed and legless

http://www.terifahrendorf.com/Closed-Pressurized-Fermenatation.pdf


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## devoutharpist

wide eyed and legless said:


> http://www.terifahrendorf.com/Closed-Pressurized-Fermenatation.pdf



Of course... it makes so much sense to make a blowoff tube using a gas disconnect . I watched a whole bunch of 'saurus and similar videos and never saw a blowoff tube being used when people had it in action.


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## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> Of course... it makes so much sense to make a blowoff tube using a gas disconnect . I watched a whole bunch of 'saurus and similar videos and never saw a blowoff tube being used when people had it in action.


I don't know what style you brew but a lot of people have wandered off the the course laid out by Terri Fahrendorf. I did try the higher temperature and pressure to make a faux lager/pilsner but it was nothing like a lager/pilsner where lagering at low temperatures are used.


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## devoutharpist

wide eyed and legless said:


> I don't know what style you brew but a lot of people have wandered off the the course laid out by Terri Fahrendorf. I did try the higher temperature and pressure to make a faux lager/pilsner but it was nothing like a lager/pilsner where lagering at low temperatures are used.



I'm definitely more of an ale brewer than a lager brewer. My main priority for fermenting under pressure is to reduce oxygen exposure when i do more hop forward beers.

So what i am thinking is.. using a blow-off for a few days and then capping (if i am using the right term... i just read all 34 pages of this thread and my brain hurts) to build up some pressure before cold crash. This should negate the issue of sucking oxygen back into the fermenter through an airlock and from here i can also start to carbonate before a closed transfer into a keg.


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## krz

wide eyed and legless said:


> I don't know what style you brew but a lot of people have wandered off the the course laid out by Terri Fahrendorf. I did try the higher temperature and pressure to make a faux lager/pilsner but it was nothing like a lager/pilsner where lagering at low temperatures are used.


Maybe do a few more experiments WEAL. Many ppl have been espousing that pressure produces good results.


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## Greg Donohue

ozgib said:


> What sort of pressure should you aim for when fermenting under pressure? I mainly make German style beer using lager yeast?


I ferment at 1.7bar .
Gives me a perfect carbonation after cold crash .


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## Greg Donohue

devoutharpist said:


> Morning everyone.
> 
> I recently got a fermentasaurus snubnose that i plan to use on my next brew. How has everyone been fermenting under pressure using these units?
> 
> Do you just chuck the yeast into the wort and then close it up? Do you add any CO2 once you close it, or add a spunding valve so it doesn't get too pressurised??


You will need a spunfing valve otherwise it will blow up .
Yes just hydrate your yeast and close up .
You can fire a bit of gas in to make sure you have a seal .


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## keine_ahnung

ozgib said:


> What sort of pressure should you aim for when fermenting under pressure? I mainly make German style beer using lager yeast?



Somewhere between atmospheric pressure and atmospheric pressure.
Focus on getting an appropriate yeast cell count, good aeration of your wort, appropriate fermentation temp and most importantly ---> an appropriate pitching temp (e.g. 6-8°C)


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## Grok

I've been pressure fermenting ales for about 2 years solid now and wonder why peeps don't do it. I use 20/20 vision.... PRV set to about 20psi and keep temp at 20C and let it do its thing, pressurized right from the start and you can get away with less headroom too. I've been using WLP001 (California Ale yeast by White Labs) for a while and it seems very happy under pressure and does a good job.


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## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> I'm definitely more of an ale brewer than a lager brewer. My main priority for fermenting under pressure is to reduce oxygen exposure when i do more hop forward beers.
> 
> So what i am thinking is.. using a blow-off for a few days and then capping (if i am using the right term... i just read all 34 pages of this thread and my brain hurts) to build up some pressure before cold crash. This should negate the issue of sucking oxygen back into the fermenter through an airlock and from here i can also start to carbonate before a closed transfer into a keg.


On the right track but not as simple as that, 2 days of a vigorous ferment gets the unwanted elements from the beer evacuating with the co2. Cap the ferment using a spunding valve and pressurise the beer.
Now you come to the tricky bit, you can't just put a pressurised vessel into a cold crash, I think someone on a thread here posted a pic of their s/steel fermenter which was sealed and the lid sucked in due to the co2 being drawn back into the beer, put your snub nose in, leave it for about 20 mins and you will see what I mean. I counteracted this by putting an expandable plastic water bottle filled with co2 connected to the gas post of the fermenter, so as the gas is drawn into the beer it is replaced by the gas I had collected. Or you could just use gas from a bottle.



krz said:


> Maybe do a few more experiments WEAL. Many ppl have been espousing that pressure produces good results.


And there are even more not pressure fermenting. Terri Fahrendorf a brewer, laid out solid ground rules for carbonating under pressure. Which is what almost all the pro brewers do to carbonate their beers.


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## devoutharpist

wide eyed and legless said:


> Now you come to the tricky bit, you can't just put a pressurised vessel into a cold crash, I think someone on a thread here posted a pic of their s/steel fermenter which was sealed and the lid sucked in due to the co2 being drawn back into the beer, put your snub nose in, leave it for about 20 mins and you will see what I mean. I counteracted this by putting an expandable plastic water bottle filled with co2 connected to the gas post of the fermenter, so as the gas is drawn into the beer it is replaced by the gas I had collected. Or you could just use gas from a bottle.



I was initially thinking i could build up enough pressure to counteract it, so that it wouldn't get to the stage of collapse, but i can see that might not be enough. I guess i could swap the spunding over for a co2 bottle and set the regulator pressure to whatever it was before (15psi etc), until the crash has completed.


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## Fro-Daddy

I ferment at 5psi in the original Fermentasaurus, no side wall collapse with that pressure going from 19°C to 2°C.


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## Mall

I do all my ferments in a 50L Sanke Keg @ 19C with Spunding Valve set at 8-10 psi. After a week I attach pouring tap to the coupler to double check FG then drop temp to 3-4C. Two days, pour carbonated sample, may be 2 then transfer under pressure to my 2 serving corny kegs. You cannot get better beer...


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## devoutharpist

Thanks for the replies everyone, i've got a lot of tips now and the main conclusion i am getting is "give it a go and see what works for you". Will definitely be keeping an eye while cold crashing though, just in case i do get some collapse. 

Does anyone depressurise to add dry hops? Mainly those without the non-snubnose 'saurus. Guess you could also closed transfer the beer into another pressurised fermenter already holding the dryhops.


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## wide eyed and legless

devoutharpist said:


> Thanks for the replies everyone, i've got a lot of tips now and the main conclusion i am getting is "give it a go and see what works for you". Will definitely be keeping an eye while cold crashing though, just in case i do get some collapse.
> 
> Does anyone depressurise to add dry hops? Mainly those without the non-snubnose 'saurus. Guess you could also closed transfer the beer into another pressurised fermenter already holding the dryhops.


If you got the 2 snub nose deal, daisy chain through the second fermenter with the dry hops.

From the low oxygen brewing thread.
Posted 10/7/16
I'm just gonna put this here..


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## Grok

Is everyone crazy?....if you had good pressure in your fermenter from the start and all during ferment, then on cold crash it will drop about 5 psi, thats all! I do it all the time, from about 20psi goes down to about 15psi.


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## Greg Donohue

wide eyed and legless said:


> On the right track but not as simple as that, 2 days of a vigorous ferment gets the unwanted elements from the beer evacuating with the co2. Cap the ferment using a spunding valve and pressurise the beer.
> Now you come to the tricky bit, you can't just put a pressurised vessel into a cold crash, I think someone on a thread here posted a pic of their s/steel fermenter which was sealed and the lid sucked in due to the co2 being drawn back into the beer, put your snub nose in, leave it for about 20 mins and you will see what I mean. I counteracted this by putting an expandable plastic water bottle filled with co2 connected to the gas post of the fermenter, so as the gas is drawn into the beer it is replaced by the gas I had collected. Or you could just use gas from a bottle.
> 
> 
> And there are even more not pressure fermenting. Terri Fahrendorf a brewer, laid out solid ground rules for carbonating under pressure. Which is what almost all the pro brewers do to carbonate their beers.


Please do a bit of homework .
If you ferment at a decent pressure which is self carbonation this will not happen .
My pressure drops about .3 of a bar or 4psi 
After i cold crash .
Never in a million year's will it implode .


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## TheSumOfAllBeers

If you need to hop your pressure fermented beers consider using a randalling device, and pumping the beer through it across the disconnects.


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## wide eyed and legless

Greg Donohue said:


> Please do a bit of homework .
> If you ferment at a decent pressure which is self carbonation this will not happen .
> My pressure drops about .3 of a bar or 4psi
> After i cold crash .
> Never in a million year's will it implode .


If you had taken the time to read my previous posts, you would have seen that the maximum pressure I went to was 2 psi, and you can take my word for it if a breather isn't attached, the PET fermenters will suck in. As you stated your pressure drops 3-4 psi that leaves mine as a negative 1-2 psi.


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## Greg Donohue

wide eyed and legless said:


> If you had taken the time to read my previous posts, you would have seen that the maximum pressure I went to was 2 psi, and you can take my word for it if a breather isn't attached, the PET fermenters will suck in. As you stated your pressure drops 3-4 psi that leaves mine as a negative 1-2 psi.


My bad .
Apologies .
Why would you only go to 2psi?


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## wide eyed and legless

Greg Donohue said:


> My bad .
> Apologies .
> Why would you only go to 2psi?


I like to keep the esters of the yeast, I brew mainly English style beers, the lower pressure keeps the esters in tact. If I was brewing an AIPA I would be tempted to go higher as they are more hop forward.


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## Half-baked

Hi WEAL, to turn the question around, what are the benefits of fermenting at 2 PSI vs no pressure?


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## wide eyed and legless

Half-baked said:


> Hi WEAL, to turn the question around, what are the benefits of fermenting at 2 PSI vs no pressure?


Ensuring I get no oxygen during transfer, the best advice is what Kiene _ahnung said in post 672. He is a brewer and not going to give out duff advice.
Another thing I find strange is, all the respected writers on brewing has never come out and given endorsements on fermenting under pressure. Some time ago I emailed John Palmer about pressurised fermentation, he replied, 'Why would anyone do that'.


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## bruiserbbq

I noticed that Russian River’s new brewery has pressure fermenters....so they must think it beneficial!


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## wide eyed and legless

bruiserbbq said:


> I noticed that Russian River’s new brewery has pressure fermenters....so they must think it beneficial!


They are all pressure fermenters capable of 15 PSI minimum used for carbonating as described by Terri Fahrendorf


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## FarsideOfCrazy

bruiserbbq said:


> I noticed that Russian River’s new brewery has pressure fermenters....so they must think it beneficial!


All of the 3 micro's near me have pressure rated vessels. They're pressure rated for transferring and carbing.

My favourite micro has 3000litre and 6000litre fermenter and bright tanks. I've done a couple of brew days with him and asked a lot of questions. When we spoke about pressure fermenting he said it is not something to do as it stresses the yeast. The only time he said to use a spunding valve was when there is a couple of points left to build some transfer pressure. He knows of no pro brewers who pressure ferment.

This fermenting under pressure that home brewers are trying is not the same as what's happening in a big tall vessel.

They all carb the beer from tank c02 and not from spunding.


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## keine_ahnung

Ok.
One of these days I'm going to write an article about what actually happens inside the yeast cell, which hopefully helps people to understand how, when and why various fermentation biproducts are produced.
As our professor in fermentation always said "Once you understand how the yeast ticks, then you can really hone in on your fermentation".

...but that will have to wait a bit as I'm currently in the thick of studying for masters exams.

Note: the following applies strongly to lager yeast. However ale yeast still *works* the same, however due to much higher levels of fermentation byproducts in general, the effects described below are much less "noticeable" in ales.

*IN SHORT:*
the benefits of fermenting under pressure?
The essence of this question for me is: why?
Why deliberately put a living organism that is trying to metabolise energy sources (Glucose, Fructose, Saccharose, Maltose, Maltotriose) under extra stress *i.e. pressure?
_(-> Would you like someone pressurising the restaurant while you're having dinner????? The yeast is also just eating, in order to have energy to reproduce itself <-)_

*Reason:*
In industry breweries: TIME = $$$$

Now we all know: Warmer fermentation = faster fermentation
(plus numerous other factors like Oxygen levels, free amino acids, etc. But I won't go into that for now)

*Problem:*
Faster/warmer fermentation* = higher production of (most) byproducts. Well, apart from Esters....which are quite important/positive for flavour/aroma/texture of the beer.
*pitch temperature is actually more critical. But let's just generalise to overal fermentation temps for now...

*Industry dilemma:*
I've got 10 x 1000 Hectolitre tanks, and each one of them cost me $250,000. We currently brew 8 batches a week. If I can push each batch through in 6 days instead of 7 days, I can brew, say, 10 batchs a week -> fully utilising my capacity. I can make more/save money and pay off my tanks quicker. (Start thinking about the fact that in big breweries if a beer is "finished" on a saturday..........???????? Leave it sitting there over the weekend and risk autolyse, or pay overtime rates for workers on weekends. We're not just talking costs from capacity increase, but also massive logistical consequences on this scale)

I digress.. :!

*Industry solution:*
If I can somehow still ferment faster, but minimise the drawbacks that come with a warmer/faster fermentation, and still make a product that is "good enough" -> it's well worth it.
Which is why so many big breweries utilise pressure fermentation.

They know they could make a "better" beer, with more time and cooler fermentation temps (better balance of Esters:higher alcohols). And the level of attention that needs to be paid to such fast and "hectic" fermentations is considerably higher (breweries of this size have their own laboratories where they constantly analyse diacetyl levels and yeast health, etc etc)
But... financially, it's worth their while.
At the end of the day, even among hobby brewers, professional brewers, highly trained Braumeisters and the average bloke at the pub..... we are all so heavily influenced by brands, designs, marketing and mates, that unfortunately the beer itself is rarely judged on it's own.
--> If the beer is only 85% as "good", but you sell 25% more of it: the CEO is happy!!!


So as I keep saying:
it's awesome that so many people want to brew great beer!
But often context is everything.
Russian River may well have pressure fermenters....sounds like it's becoming more and more trendy. However;

*Some food for thought:*
The beer that was in the cans that are often left under park benches and on trains.....there's a very high probability that those breweries have had pressure fermenters for years. Is that really your goal?

I'm not saying that all beer brewed under pressure is "bad". However when you talk to people who reeeeeeally understand yeast and fermentation, you realise that pressure fermentation was developed as shortcut to save time/money. Not as a means to make the best beer possible.


**Disclaimer: I admit there's still lots I'm yet to learn about brewing, especially in more exotic brewing cultures (e.g. in Belgium etc etc), and I've no doubt that lots of breweries make great beers under pressure. And I have no intention to rag on such breweries. I just want people to also understand that they usually have some very large aspects (financial feasibility) which don't apply to brewing in your garage


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## MHB

Pretty much covers it!

Worth remembering that way back when there was no bottled CO2 or good pressure rated tanks to brew in, the only way to get fizz into beer was naturally.
Lager brewers would cool the ferment slowly (0.5-1oC/day) from ferment to lagering temperatures, Lager yeast will keep fermenting at the temperature falls, the CO2 produced goes into solution maintaining the desired amount of dissolved CO2 - no sudden changes in temperature or pressure for the yeast to adapt to or to collapse tanks...

Crash chilling (often 10-20oC/day) is yet another attempt to speed up the process, rather than to improve it.
People say beer is made with Hops, Malt Water and Yeast, I would love to add Patience to that list.
Mark


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## devoutharpist

Very interesting reads. My main desire to pressurise is to reduce oxidation, not speed up the fermentation process. I've had a few heavily hopped beers turn to river water recently as my current process allows for a LOT of oxygen exposure. That said, it works perfectly fine for strong ales, stouts, belgians, etc. 

For anyone that cares, i think i am going to try a blow-off valve until after the dryhopping, the swap a spunding in and build up pressure (maybe in the world of 5-6psi, additional CO2 if required) to counteract negative pressure and collapse. Cold crashing to drop the hops down to the bottom so they hopefully don't clog the balls out of the tubing when i pressure transfer to a keg.


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## Half-baked

Hi @devoutharpist and WEAL, am keen to understand the theory here. 
Is it that at a higher pressure, more of the gas that will be absorbed is CO2, meaning despite the same overall amount of O2 less can be absorbed? 
Or at a higher pressure, gases will stratify more and the O2 is more likely to be released through the spunding valve?
Or something else...
Thanks


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## Fro-Daddy

When you carbonate in the bottle with sugar, the same yeast is going through the stress of pressure - even more I would say.
Why isn't it a bad thing when bottling?
Is it less important/has less influence at the end of fermentation?


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## Tony121

I must say, this is the best discussion I’ve seen on this forum for a number of years.


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## wide eyed and legless

Half-baked said:


> Hi @devoutharpist and WEAL, am keen to understand the theory here.
> Is it that at a higher pressure, more of the gas that will be absorbed is CO2, meaning despite the same overall amount of O2 less can be absorbed?
> Or at a higher pressure, gases will stratify more and the O2 is more likely to be released through the spunding valve?
> Or something else...
> Thanks


It isn't just the pressure that distresses the yeast, it is far more difficult to pressurise a liquid than it is a gas. So what happens, the co2 which is a bi-product of the yeast is not being vented, it is dissolving back into the wort, putting even more stress on the yeast.
Venting the co2 drives off any O2 along with other unwanted compounds from the beer.
For me nowadays, I send mine through either a secondary fermenter, or a cube which I use as a cask, I dry hop in both cases but in the cube I put a bout 2 desert spoons of sugar added to water which has been boiled transfer the beer where it will ferment again venting through an inline regulator so keeping some pressure. I have a 8psi inline regulater which is to high for a cask ale so I have given that one the Tijuana. I now use an adjustable one keeping it around 4 or 5 psi.


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## wide eyed and legless

Fro-Daddy said:


> When you carbonate in the bottle with sugar, the same yeast is going through the stress of pressure - even more I would say.
> Why isn't it a bad thing when bottling?
> Is it less important/has less influence at the end of fermentation?


I would say that because the process is complete, the yeast is being used solely to carbonate. Though it is a good point, to much sugar and they will keep munching through it until the bottle explodes


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## Grok

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would say that because the process is complete, the yeast is being used solely to carbonate. Though it is a good point, to much sugar and they will keep munching through it until the bottle explodes



This extract of an article about "Effect of High Pressures on Bacteria" from Oxford University Press might provide enlightenment!
https://www.jstor.org/stable/30080457?seq=3#metadata_info_tab_contents







Which leads me onto what I think should be an important question for consideration!
*Is Pressure Fermenting actually better for yeast health?*
If the the above info is true, then logical would suggest that healthy yeast is not damaged by beer brewing practices using pressurized vessels at all, indeed, according to this article here https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1898.tb00042.x , quite the opposite in fact!
Although it appears to be the results of a very old experiment, it is none the less relevant to this discussion I think.
I know from my own experience that I've used the same yeast over and over about up to 25 times with no washing or anything, and seemly no difference in fermenting vigor or flavours each time (in pressure fermenting of course!). I only changed because I wanted to try a some different yeasts.
It would be good to get peeps thoughts on this line of thinking!
Maybe this would be better as a new thread? Moderators?


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## wide eyed and legless

Well it is interesting that the two articles you have decided to offer up one is from The Journal Of Infectious Diseases. The other from a discussion held in 1898, with no scientific proof because the sun wasn't out on the day he wanted to take the photo's, I have read before that the Burton Union was a form of pressure fermenting, but it is very minimal pressure, my 2 psi would probably sound excessive.
Also in Wiley online there are varying articles of the amount of times yeast can be used, I have read that it can be used over and over and others have said it would best be limited to fewer times.
I could be wrong, but my theory is, in nature the usual occurrence when a species comes about either by design or by fluke, nature will rectify it. Meaning the said species will start to revert back to its original structure. Probably the only home brewer who could answer that would be Tracy Aquilla, he has a BS in microbiology and a PhD in Genetics.


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## MHB

ROLF really 35 pages and "Why" is still a mystery.

Devoutharpist & Half-Baked - you both need to understand Daltons Law, in a mixture of gasses each gas pretty much acts alone and isn't affected by the other gases (given they don't react chemically), so lots of dissolved CO2 wont reduce the amount of dissolved O2.
One gas can displace another physically, basically a large flow of CO2 will "blow" O2 out of the fermenter with it, Nitrogen (N2) does it better if you are thinking of purging to reduce O2.
Which raises some interesting questions about why you would bung up the fermenter so gas cant escape.

Going back to brewing basics, We only want O2 in the wort for that very brief time while yeast is reproducing, at every other point in the process it does harm. I know how fast O2 picked up in packaging can turn a NEPA into dish water, appears to be a pretty good rule of thumb that the hoppier the beer the more damage it does and the faster.
If I was planning an extremely hoppy beer I would start working on O2 exclusion from malt milling on.
Consider using an air stone and a trickle of CO2 in the mash and kettle.
Avoid aggressive stirring, or pouring liquids so that you pick up O2, consider preparing all your liquor (strike and sparge water) by purging with CO2 for ~10 minutes before using (put your water in some cubes/kegs/jerries...). Have a read up on Low DO brewing!
When it comes to pitching the yeast, my normal practice is to aerate with O2, for a super hoppy beer I would seriously think of skipping aeration, either use dry yeast that doesn't require aeration or build up a liquid starter. In either case think seriously of pitching at higher rates so you don't end up under pitching (pitch at the high end of the recommended ranges for the yeast you choose) without the recommended 10ppm or so of DO the yeast wont reproduce as much.
When you transfer, make sure that the kegs/bottles and all your lines are thoroughly flushed out (more CO2).

World wide Commercial Lager makes up about 90% of the beer sold, so most of the research is done on this type of beer.
One of the main aims of a Lager brewer is to minimise Esters. Most of these are produced during yeast reproduction and in the first 48 Hours of fermentation. Commercial brewers generally allow the fermenter to vent freely (or close to) for the first couple of days (remember that this has been pretty heavily researched). During the early stages of the ferment we want the fermenter to vent easily, this carries out any residual O2 as well as quite a few other undesirable volatiles, after that its pretty common to apply a bit of over pressure, to save money on CO2 as much as anything, the Reinheitsgebot precludes bringing CO2 into the brewery, prevents embarrassing tank damage when cooling...
The CO2 produced in the first 48 Hours isn't regarded as being pure enough to be used for conditioning beer. No one is pressurising early in the ferment.

Bunging the fermenter (usually with a PRV) is done when there are enough fermentables left to condition the beer (plus a touch), usually based on a forced ferment (AKA fast ferment) test. At this end of the ferment ester production isn't really an issue and the undesirable volatiles have already been scrubbed out. Whether you are talking about adding specie, sugar or just bunging the fermenter, this is a continuation of the initial ferment and wont make much in the way of off flavours.
The other big aim of lager brewers is to reduce (eliminate) Diacetyl, Pressure fermentation has been explored to this end, but at pressures in Pa's not kPa's ranges have been applied. This is a fraction of what some homebrewers are talking about.
Measurable rises in acetaldehyde were recorded, there is even an equation that calculates how much Diacetyl you will reduce for a given pressure/temperature and how much Acetaldehyde you will gain. but it appears to be a trade off.
Bunging late to condition beer, I get that, its an old and well tested process.
Personally I cant see the point in pressure fermenting, except as part of conditioning beer.
Some (very small) over pressure to make sure nothing undesirable is getting into your fermenter is good, above that Meh.
Mark

Grok
People can survive without food for two weeks, using your version of logic, one meal a fortnight is all you need.
Brave to ask for an opinion - mine is you have rocks in your head!
M


----------



## Grok

Well, such passion MHB! I bet you feel better after venting (under pressure of course) that lot!
But I don't see you addressing my question, just a put down instead.
It would be nice if an intelligent discussion could follow and stay on topic.
I don't see why people should be flamed for asking a genuine question.

Does an athlete not train under pressure to get better? Is Darwin's theory of evolution where life has to adapt to changing environments, predators etc, or perish wrong? In nature, the strong survive and the weak die. Farmers practice selective breeding all the time, and brewers want the strongest yeast cells to use- yes? The practice of acid washing or Chlorine Dioxide Solution is used to kill off other bacteria and weak yeast cells leaving the strongest yeast to carry on. I'm putting forward that a pressure environment may help to knock off weak yeast cells and possibly other bacteria thereby leaving the stronger (more adaptive?) yeast to thrive.
So, getting back to the question, 
*Is Pressure Fermenting actually better for yeast health?*
I don't for one minute profess to knowing the answer, I just want to know if there is one!
I also don't see why O2 is even contemplated in a pressure tank, I thought the yeast will use all the available o2 in its early life cycle, then switch to anaerobic mode to carry on, so unless the lid is lifted or depressurized to the point where fresh air can get in, then I fail to see why it is being discussed in this thread.


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## Kenf

ozgib said:


> What sort of pressure should you aim for when fermenting under pressure? I mainly make German style beer using lager yeast?


I ferment at 6-8 PSI.


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## devoutharpist

MHB said:


> Devoutharpist & Half-Baked - ...
> Which raises some interesting questions about why you would bung up the fermenter so gas cant escape.
> 
> Going back to brewing basics, We only want O2 in the wort for that very brief time while yeast is reproducing, at every other point in the process it does harm. I know how fast O2 picked up in packaging can turn a NEPA into dish water, appears to be a pretty good rule of thumb that the hoppier the beer the more damage it does and the faster.
> If I was planning an extremely hoppy beer I would start working on O2 exclusion from malt milling on.
> Consider using an air stone and a trickle of CO2 in the mash and kettle.



Perhaps i haven't really been clear of my intentions in my exploratory statements here as i try to learn form others' experience, but I think you have answered the question yourself. As per my last post, i am intending to bung it up (albeit with a spunding valve, so whatever gasses reside can escape to a degree) as fermentation nears its end to build up to around 5-6 psi to negate collapse due to negative pressure. Cold crash to attempt to settle all of the hop matter floating about so that it doesn't clog the lines for the... closed transfer to a purged keg 

I can see the merits of the full low oxygen process, but alas i don't have the equipment or the means to purchase such at the moment. Especially when i brew a lot of other styles that i personally haven't seen the need to reduce oxygen in yet. So i figure, avoiding oxygen at the end of the process is better than nothing for styles such as NEIPAs or any other heavily hopped IPA. If i can push the effects of oxidation back a month or two, the beer will be gone anyway and that is a win in my books.


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## wide eyed and legless

Grok said:


> Well, such passion MHB! I bet you feel better after venting (under pressure of course) that lot!
> But I don't see you addressing my question, just a put down instead.
> It would be nice if an intelligent discussion could follow and stay on topic.
> I don't see why people should be flamed for asking a genuine question.
> 
> Does an athlete not train under pressure to get better? Is Darwin's theory of evolution where life has to adapt to changing environments, predators etc, or perish wrong? In nature, the strong survive and the weak die. Farmers practice selective breeding all the time, and brewers want the strongest yeast cells to use- yes? The practice of acid washing or Chlorine Dioxide Solution is used to kill off other bacteria and weak yeast cells leaving the strongest yeast to carry on. I'm putting forward that a pressure environment may help to knock off weak yeast cells and possibly other bacteria thereby leaving the stronger (more adaptive?) yeast to thrive.
> So, getting back to the question,
> *Is Pressure Fermenting actually better for yeast health?*
> I don't for one minute profess to knowing the answer, I just want to know if there is one!
> I also don't see why O2 is even contemplated in a pressure tank, I thought the yeast will use all the available o2 in its early life cycle, then switch to anaerobic mode to carry on, so unless the lid is lifted or depressurized to the point where fresh air can get in, then I fail to see why it is being discussed in this thread.


Even though yeast is stressed by many things it has the ability to survive, it was here before the earth had oxygen and it will be here after we have all gone, yeast does not necessarily have to use the oxygen, it pleases itself what it uses. There are plenty of articles in Wiley online library about the effect of pressure, and dissolved co2 stressing out the yeast. So no, as it has been said many times in this thread pressure fermenting is detrimental to yeast health. When I was in Europe last year I visited a lot of small brewery's all were open fermenting. I am sure if I had even mentioned fermenting under pressure I would have been locked away in a facility for the ill at ease.
Here is an article about yeast by Tracy Aquilla, I have posted an abridged version before.
http://kotmf.com/articles/yeastbiochem.pdf


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## MHB

Grok
We have been selectively breading yeast for hundreds (arguably 8-10 thousand) of years, the main selective pressure being how much we enjoy the product.
We know yeast will reproduce and ferment faster at +30oC than it does at say 16oC, does that mean we should start brewing that hot?
To answer your question No! brewing at high pressure isn't better for yeast health, based on all the evidence I can find the lower the pressure early in the ferment the better.

Devoutharpist
Its a bit more complicated than you might expect, O2 can be taken up early in the process and come back to haunt you later. Agreed that most of the harm particularly in highly hopped beer will happen later in the process (especially in packaging). Making a stable NEPA is a challenge, the best I have seen are made by brewers who take pretty extreme measures to minimise O2 pickup at every step in the process - but as you say better to exclude it late than not at all.

M


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## Kenf

I seriously do not want to get into a huge debate - I’m not a scientist/ microbiologist, nor brewmeister, not even a guru!
Funny though Coopers fermenters (home brew) don’t have airlocks anymore.
And everyone is busting their arse to get hold of a fermzilla or other conical pressure fermenter.
One thing I have noticed since the rise of the popularity of homebrewing (I.e there is money to be made) & social media - everyone has an opinion! Like they say opinions are like arseholes - everyone has one!
I do know this however - I have fermented a few beers under pressure in an old mini keg. It was quick, the beer was nice and the yeasties survived.
Is it right f$&*ed if I know, would it meet with approval from the guys at Lion, Coopers etc. again dont know and in fact ( sorry guys) I actually don’t care! I’m not selling my stuff, even though I have been asked to consider it.
I know I’m producing beers that taste great ( if I had a big ego I would say far better than the commercial swill I used to drink).
And it’s fun learning shit! And if I do stuff one up, I can dump it! Afterall it’s cheap enough!
Anyway that’s the end of my input on the subject .
Cheers and enjoy the hobby!


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## devoutharpist

I'm starting to think perhaps there should have been two threads... fermenting under pressure and applying pressure near the end of fermentation.


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## Reg Holt

devoutharpist said:


> I'm starting to think perhaps there should have been two threads... fermenting under pressure and applying pressure near the end of fermentation.


I can see your point, there are two different thoughts on this approach, but it did all start from one source so I guess they do, rightly or wrongly belong in the same thread. More wrong than right.


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## ABG

@Grok to answer your question, is pressure fermentation better for yeast health, the answer according to Dr Charlie Bamforth, Chris White (and anyone else I have read who is recognised as a global authority) is a resounding no. Pressure fermentation is detrimental to yeast health.

Can you still successfully brew under pressure? Yes.

Will the beer be better? No

Will it be produced faster? Yes

@Kenf the reason I (and I suspect many others) am interested in buying a Fermzilla has nothing to do with fermenting under pressure. There are a number of things that appeal to me - easily the biggest drawcard is the ability to transfer beer from my fermenter to keg in an oxygen free environment. Other benefits include being able to remove the yeast cake without introducing oxygen, adding hops without introducing oxygen, but fermenting under pressure (except as @devoutharpist suggests at the end of fermentation to carbonate) is of zero interest to me.


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## Maheel

i reckon my beer is way better since i started pressure fermenting "better hop forward ales"

i got no idea if i have suddenly turned into a better brewer = unlikely or it is the pressure fermenting = more likely

IMO a big part of it may be the more closed less O2 brewing system it creates in my brewery using co2 to push beer into kegs etc out of the kegmenters

how does the Fermzilla stop o2 when adding hops? 
(i cube hop but don't dry hop into kegmenter, all cube hop / break is poured in)


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## ABG

Maheel said:


> IMO a big part of it may be the more closed less O2 brewing system it creates in my brewery using co2 to push beer into kegs etc out of the kegmenters


I reckon you hit the nail on the head right there, but I'm far from an expert. Regardless of what it is that's improving your beers, I'm pleased to hear your beer quality is heading in the right direction. After all, that's what a forum like this ought to be about at its core - not whether you like the supplier in the blue corner or the supplier in the red corner. Thank christ the other place exists and is a model of civil discourse, because the Keg Universe v Keg Galaxy posts over here do my head in.



Maheel said:


> how does the Fermzilla stop o2 when adding hops?


Have you watched the promo video? If not have a look - it describes the benefits better than I can. Kee describes how you can flush out the collection jar with CO2 before adding hops, and then reflushing with CO2 after adding hops before letting the wort back in the jar.


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## Maheel

ahh i thought it might be just flushing with c02

i have been flushing my drinking keg with co2 by just giving them a quick blast of gas to maybe push out the 02


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## Grok

Interesting that White Labs offer a High Pressure Lager Yeast WLP925, anybody tried it?


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## wide eyed and legless

Grok said:


> Interesting that White Labs offer a High Pressure Lager Yeast WLP925, anybody tried it?


There is a podcast on post 630 where they used this yeast, take note near the end Chris White says, 'I wish someone would make an open fermenter'


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## Mya

There is an interesting article written here https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2001.tb00083.x (if you open this more than once, make sure to open in incongito mode as they appear to track your usage and will try to make you buy it if you open it more than once).

On pg4 there are graphs there showing the impact on temperature and pressure on a lager.

They mention 1.05 bars and 1.8 bars, I assume they are referring to bar absolute not bar gauge (so consider them 0.05 barg and 0.8 barg).

They show a substantial reduction in yeast cell count at higher pressure so the conclusion to draw is that fermenting at pressure has a noticeable reduction in yeast growth and presumably health. The cause of reduced yeast growth is noted to be increased CO2 concentration in the wort, which makes sense as it is inhibiting the growth of the yeast by suppressing one of the byproducts of growth. They don't refer to the increased pressure affecting the yeast cell itself as being a factor, as has been mentioned previously in this thread, even stating "Since yeast physiology and the biosynthesis of volatiles are affected by dissolved carbon dioxide and not directly by top pressure, results were analysed taking into consideration the two following parameters: temperature and dissolved CO2 concentrations."

Interestingly there is no impact on fusel alcohol production at 16 degC either under pressure or not, but at low tempertures there is a slight reduction at higher pressure.

Fermenting hot under high pressure produces similar esters to low temperature. An interesting thing here is that ester production really starts to ramp up after most of the fermentation is complete, so in the "cleanup" tail end phase of fermentation.

And fermenting under pressure slows fermentation in general at an equivalent temperature, presumably due to lower yeast growth. So if people are fermenting under pressure but at the same temperature as they did previously, they are slowing fermentation - so you may as well ferment hotter (for lagers at least).


----------



## Grok

wide eyed and legless said:


> There is a podcast on post 630 where they used this yeast, take note near the end Chris White says, 'I wish someone would make an open fermenter'


That utube link on post 630 is Beersmith Podcast #163 and it is very interesting indeed. I have seen it before but kinda forgot about it and was happy to check it out again. Its amazing how information can go over ones head first time round because we weren't ready to receive all of info properly.

The yeast used was WLP833 German Bock Lager Yeast stated at (19:50) time stamp, and not WLP925 I asked about! 

At (46:05) Chris White refers to open fermenters for traditional flavour profiles and thats a fair enough comment, but then in the same breathe is saying take the lid off in a couple of days to skim off some yeast, then "put the lid back down again to clean it better" presumably referring to pressurizing, or maybe repressurizing? Anyway, my point is your comment in isolation is a bit out of context I think.

In the results chart that came from that podcast discussion, the time span is not stated on the chart, but is mentioned in the video that the unpressurized Lager batch was done the traditional way over 8 weeks (presumably at cooler temp), and the other batches were at 20 degrees Celisus over 2 weeks.
To me, the comments from Chris White indicated the cooler temps used for "Lagering" stressed the yeast abit to suppress certain esters, same as the increased pressure/higher temp does, but in a much shorter time span with very similar taste results.

Results chart.






My own observations are that the pressure takes a while to build up anyway (12~24hrs ish) depending on temp of course, so maybe start temp can be used on its own for good effect.
I have got my hands on some WLP925 High Pressure Lager yeast and will try it next batch, we shall see how it goes!


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Chris White did mention the high pressure lager yeast at around the 6 minute mark for the guy who had to make the lager for a football game. I did think they had used it in the experiment, obviously not.

At (46:05) Chris White refers to open fermenters for traditional flavour profiles and thats a fair enough comment, but then in the same breathe is saying take the lid off in a couple of days to skim off some yeast, then "put the lid back down again to clean it better" presumably referring to pressurizing, or maybe repressurizing? Anyway, my point is your comment in isolation is a bit out of context I think.

He was talking about the open fermenter, skim or harvest the yeast off the top to get good fresh yeast to save. Even though it is an open fermentation it would possibly need some sort of cover, days gone by a tea towel was thrown over a fermenter which was quite often a large glazed pot which was used for storing bread. 'Cleaning better' would have been referring to the yeast cleaning up, no pressure involved.
Just try the high pressure yeast and see what you think, if you are happy with it and can't tell the difference between a lagered lager or a high speed lager stick with it.


----------



## Grok

wide eyed and legless said:


> He was talking about the open fermenter, skim or harvest the yeast off the top to get good fresh yeast to save. Even though it is an open fermentation it would possibly need some sort of cover, days gone by a tea towel was thrown over a fermenter which was quite often a large glazed pot which was used for storing bread. 'Cleaning better' would have been referring to the yeast cleaning up, no pressure involved.



Hmmm, can't say I'm convinced about that, considering the whole session was about pressure fermenting, however I'll let it go.

I'd still like to know if anybody else has used the WLP925 with a pressure ferment and their thoughts.


----------



## jollster101

@weal - Somewhere in either this monster thread or elsewhere you mentioned about the collection of CO2 for re-use. Is there a separate thread around that that you could point me to?

Or is there benefit in such a thread being created if there isn't already for those new to the game (aka me) who may want to look at taking advantage of this.


----------



## Mya

jollster101 said:


> @weal - Somewhere in either this monster thread or elsewhere you mentioned about the collection of CO2 for re-use. Is there a separate thread around that that you could point me to?
> 
> Or is there benefit in such a thread being created if there isn't already for those new to the game (aka me) who may want to look at taking advantage of this.



Some people use mylar balloons attached to the fermenter to collect CO2 so that when you cold crash it sucks in the CO2 from the balloon rather than just air.


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## jollster101

Mya said:


> Some people use mylar balloons attached to the fermenter to collect CO2 so that when you cold crash it sucks in the CO2 from the balloon rather than just air.


Thanks.

I recall (I think) that WEAL was collecting into a spare keg he had via some method or other. Bit sketchy on the memory hence the ask.


----------



## wide eyed and legless

jollster101 said:


> @weal - Somewhere in either this monster thread or elsewhere you mentioned about the collection of CO2 for re-use. Is there a separate thread around that that you could point me to?
> 
> Or is there benefit in such a thread being created if there isn't already for those new to the game (aka me) who may want to look at taking advantage of this.


It is somewhere in this thread, as it isn't really anything to do with pressure fermenting I suppose a new thread could be created.


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## MHB

I know some brewers are very money conscious (tight as a fishes....) but before you go rushing off and storing CO2 that you cant be sure is either pure or sterile.
Every Mole of a gas occupies about 22.4L at STP (0.0oC & 1Bar), the number of moles can be found by dividing a mass by the Molecular Weight (MW) of the gas, for CO2 it about 44MU. I pay $10 a kg for CO2, so for that I get -
1000g/44= 22.73Moles*22.4L/M=509L or enough to fill 25 of 20L kegs or 40cents per keg full.
Lets just say at that price I would happily part with up to $1, just to be sure the gas I use ids both pure and sterile.
I certainly would be investing a lot of time or effort in capturing CO2, or methane from farts either. Both strike me as a pretty problematic.
Mark


----------



## HaveFun

Hi,

I'm fermenting under pressure in my corny kegs. And I serve out of them. 

I brew mostly Bavarian wheat beer, they don't have to be crystal clear 

The advantage for me is that I only have to clean the keg.

I adjusted the pressure to around 15psi. But the last time I forgot to adjust the pressure. And I ended up with a fully carbonated brew.

What's the disadvantage if I don't adjust the pressure? The yeast seems fine with it.

Cheers and happy brewing
Stefan


----------



## theSeekerr

HaveFun said:


> I adjusted the pressure to around 15psi. But the last time I forgot to adjust the pressure. And I ended up with a fully carbonated brew.
> 
> What's the disadvantage if I don't adjust the pressure? The yeast seems fine with it.



Some yeasts don't like it. There's no question that that much pressure is a stressor.

You can mostly get the best of both worlds by adjusting the pressure to your typical range (10-15 psi or whatever you use) for most of the ferment, then adjusting your PRV to ~30-35 psi for the last 4 points or so. That's enough to fully carbonate but minimises the amount of work the yeast do under stress.

But if your favourite yeast doesn't seem to care, do whatever!


----------



## minikeg1971

HaveFun said:


> I'm fermenting under pressure in my corny kegs. And I serve out of them.



This is a great idea. I want to do this too. But I wonder how long can the beer sit on the cake/trub for? I guess not an issue if the keg empties in a month?


----------



## Nickedoff

This thread is absolute gold. I'm 18 pages in so far, and kicked off my first beer a couple of days ago in the fermenter king. Started easy with a FWK, in a temp controlled fridge with heatbelt and inkbird + Spundit valve - fermenting at 15psi @ 14.5 deg. Seems to be going well so far, was going gangbusters for the first day or two but has settled down a bit now.

Quick question about cold-crashing - if I cold crash from 15PSI after fermentation is finished, is the fermenter going to cave in? Do I need to run a couple of psi into the fermenter to keep the keep the pressure steady while crashing?


----------



## kadmium

HaveFun said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm fermenting under pressure in my corny kegs. And I serve out of them.
> 
> I brew mostly Bavarian wheat beer, they don't have to be crystal clear
> 
> The advantage for me is that I only have to clean the keg.
> 
> I adjusted the pressure to around 15psi. But the last time I forgot to adjust the pressure. And I ended up with a fully carbonated brew.
> 
> What's the disadvantage if I don't adjust the pressure? The yeast seems fine with it.
> 
> Cheers and happy brewing
> Stefan


Rather than saying yeast don't like it (non descript) increasing pressure is related to a decrease in phenolic and esters. So if brewing a particularly estery beer like a wheat, it can be more subdued. 

People carry on about pressure fermenting being bad, but it's really not. It depends what you want to get out of it. 

I would personally stick to less than 10psi for a wheat and in the last day or two, crank pressure to carbonate. This will allow esters to be produced and then capture the final part of the ferment for carbonating.


----------



## razz

Nickedoff said:


> This thread is absolute gold. I'm 18 pages in so far, and kicked off my first beer a couple of days ago in the fermenter king. Started easy with a FWK, in a temp controlled fridge with heatbelt and inkbird + Spundit valve - fermenting at 15psi @ 14.5 deg. Seems to be going well so far, was going gangbusters for the first day or two but has settled down a bit now.
> 
> Quick question about cold-crashing - if I cold crash from 15PSI after fermentation is finished, is the fermenter going to cave in? Do I need to run a couple of psi into the fermenter to keep the keep the pressure steady while crashing?


You will need to keep an eye on the pressure gauge Nickedoff. It's my experience that when chilling from 14 degrees down to 4 degrees there is a drop in pressure but usually only about 3-4 psi. You should still end up with 9-10 psi for kegging. You can use pressure tables to work out the drop but in reality it's not much.


----------



## kadmium

I just remove the spunding valve. Not much I can do if it's gonna drop pressure, but yeah generally in general its around a 4psi drop


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## Nickedoff

Thanks razz and kadmium - good to know. cheers!


----------



## Paddy

What Razz said, I have a tilt and adjust the blow tie to allow the pressure to creep up as the SG starts to steady and loosely aim for 12psi after cold crash, this allows me to pressure transfer fining solution via the gas post as well


----------



## Nickedoff

I've been cold crashing for 2 days. Down from 16 deg to 0.5, no issues with vacuum, still at ~12psi.

Once cold crashing is finished, if I want to keep the beer in the fermenter for a bit, should I depressurise, remove the collection bottle with the trub and then re-pressurise? 

I've taken a few sample along the way and it's very bloody nice (consequences lager fwk).


----------



## razz

Nickedoff said:


> I've been cold crashing for 2 days. Down from 16 deg to 0.5, no issues with vacuum, still at ~12psi.
> 
> Once cold crashing is finished, if I want to keep the beer in the fermenter for a bit, should I depressurise, remove the collection bottle with the trub and then re-pressurise?
> 
> I've taken a few sample along the way and it's very bloody nice (consequences lager fwk).


How long is "a bit" Nickedoff? More than a couple of weeks I would remove the yeast/trub for sure. You can read about yeast autolysis and it's effects on stored beer, but basically, get the beer off the yeast and keep it cold (as you are doing)


----------



## Nickedoff

Probably a couple more weeks depending how long it takes my keg to arrive. Just want to make sure I've got the procedure right in terms of depressurisation and repressurisation


----------



## Staggerin

Been having some random thoughts about fermenting under pressure...

When you use an air lock with no pressure, people complain about losing hop aromas etc through the airlock, so certain compounds must be escaping.

So, if you are fermenting under pressure (say 5 PSI) are you capturing those compounds and keeping them in the beer? Also, If you are capturing the co2 towards the end of fermentation to carb the beer(say 10 PSI) are you also capturing any nasties that would normally blow off?

Maybe barking up the wrong tree here.

Any thoughts?


----------



## wide eyed and legless

Pressurized Fermentation | Spike Brewing


Pressurized fermentation. John Degroote, head brewer at New Barons Brewing Cooperative, provides background on this latest homebrewing trend you'll want to check out.




spikebrewing.com




.

If you are looking for retaining the hop aroma this may be of interest.
_Hop additions have been pushed back later and later in the brewing process of hoppy beers as brewers look to maximize aroma and flavor. We asked three pro brewers renowned for their hoppy beers how they get the most out of their hops._

*Ben Edmunds, Brewmaster at Breakside Brewery in Portland, Oregon*





We build on hop flavor through traditional late kettle and whirlpool additions. Even though a lot of the aroma from these charges gets evolved out of wort/beer later on, the residual compounds are important for structure and depth of flavor. Flavors contributed from dry hopping build upon that and provide the majority of the primary flavors in our beers. Judicious use of CO2 hop extract during the boil, mash hopping, dry hopping with whole cone hops, and dry hopping at cooler temperatures all are some more advanced techniques that we’ve used occasionally over the years to drive hop flavor and mouthfeel in certain beers. That said, a traditional hotside schedule with additions at 60 and 10–15 minutes before flameout as well as a whirlpool or 0-minute addition will set you up for a very nice, flavorful, hoppy beer. I also encourage people to use lower alpha hops for late kettle additions — hops in the 6–10% AA range such as Cascade, Amarillo®, and Comet.

We don’t do it for all of our beers, but cooling the wort a bit before adding the whirlpool hops is a technique that allows us to make larger charges of higher-alpha hops in our whirlpool without the concomitant bitterness that a near-boiling addition would bring. I don’t think this has a huge influence on aroma but it allows us to layer soft and rich hop flavors into beers. 

On the subject of aroma, the two most important things anyone can do to make a beer with great hop aroma are dry hop it appropriately and keep oxygen out of the beer. Even a small (>10 ppb) pickup of oxygen at the time of packaging will have immediate deleterious effects on aroma no matter how heavily dry hopped a beer is. 

We vary dry hop additions based on the type of beer and total dry hop load. Our most basic approach would be a standard 2–3 lbs. per barrel (1–1.5 oz./gallon or 8.5–11.5 g/L) dry hop done around 68 °F (20 °C) after a beer is at terminal gravity, typically 5–6 days after brewing. For hazy IPAs and beers with larger dry hop loads (1.5+ oz./gal. or 11.5+ g/L), we usually split the dry hop into two separate charges. Typically, we do 5–6 days of total contact time. 

We’ve seen dry hops as little as 1⁄3 lb. per bbl (0.2 oz./gal. or 1.3 g/L) in a lager have a huge impact on beer aroma, and more is not always more. While a very large dry hop might have some huge short-term aroma impact, it also puts a lot of additional variability into a beer. The hugely dry hopped beer inevitably is going to change more over a 10-, 20-, 30-day period than a beer with a smaller dry hop. That said, our typical dry hop rate for IPAs and other assertive hoppy beers ranges from 2 lbs. per barrel on a mellower pale ale to 5.5 lbs. per barrel (1–2.8 oz./ gal. or 8.5–20.8 g/L) for some double IPAs. Above that, we have not seen much increased impact.

The paradigm in American hoppy beers has shifted to focus primarily on the flavors and aromas driven by Citra®, Simcoe®, and Mosaic®: Tropical fruit, sweet pine, grapefruit, dank, resin, blueberry, mandarin, lavender. The challenge is getting that flavor profile without just using the same three hops over and over. A lot of the New Zealand varieties play well in this realm especially when used as supplemental hops; good Chinook has a lot of overlap with Simcoe® and a lot less mercaptan-derived cattiness; Strata® is the new hop on the block that will join the cool kids club; El Dorado®, Cashmere®, and Comet are all great supporting hops that can be used to great contemporary effect as well. 

*Ryan Speyrer, Head Brewer at Parish Brewing Co. in Broussard, Louisiana*




At Parish we focus on making flavorful base wort with generous late-hopping additions in the kettle. Many of our beers don’t receive hops until flameout at the earliest, and these additions typically range from 1.25–2 lbs./bbl (0.65–1 oz./gal. or 4.8–8.5 g/L) depending on the recipe. We also perform “sub-iso” additions on some beers (including all of our hazy IPAs), where we cool the wort going into the whirlpool tank to below isomerization temperature and add hops at a similar rate. This technique seems to impart richer citrus and melon flavors from hops that already exhibit those potential flavors.

Most of our hop load goes into the dry hop post-fermentation where we will use quantities from 2 up to 10 lbs./bbl (1–5 oz./gal. or 8.5–42 g/L) in a couple of hop bombs we have made in the past. Moving beyond this threshold we have found a significant rise in vegetal, grassy, and hop astringency imparted to the beer (not to mention tremendous yield losses). The later you add the hops in the brewhouse, the more aromatics will be retained in the wort. Generous flameout additions and cooling the wort in the whirlpool before adding even more hops all contribute to aroma. There is no getting around dry hopping to get maximum hop aroma in your beer, however. The active fermentation off-gassing by the yeast will have a scrubbing effect on some of those more volatile hop aroma compounds, so some loss will be observed between the brewhouse and post-fermentation. Conversely, yeast contact with the hops can provide interesting flavor changes via biotransformation whereby certain yeast strains can chemically alter hop aroma oils into new compounds with different flavor profiles. 

We add dry hops as soon as primary fermentation is complete and we have pitched any yeast that needs to come from the tank for other batches. We cold crash the tank after removing the yeast and start dumping trub from the bottom of the tank before transfer. Keeping contact with the hops warm will impart undesirable grassy and vegetal notes to the beer, especially with very heavily dry-hopped beers, so we consider the cold crashing step to be more important than simply looking at contact time. We’ve found two days is all that’s needed for most of the flavor to come from dry hop additions.

*Jeremy Wirtes, Co-Founder/Director of Brewing Operations at Triple Crossing Brewing Co. in Richmond, Virginia*




For us, we place heavy emphasis on dry hopping, and more specifically, hop aroma/quality out of the bag prior to dry hopping. If it smells great out of the bag, chances are it’ll show up in the beer. We dry hop most beers twice with two separate additions days apart to ensure we get the aroma we’re after. We’ll hit the beer with its first round just prior to the tail end of fermentation, and then another round roughly 3–4 days later to get both ends of the dry hop spectrum. We use 3–4 days contact time, which also seems to allow for any hop creep to occur if it’s going to, which with our house UK ale yeast, we don’t often see. Surprisingly enough, with the cleaner Chico yeast we use for our West Coast IPAs and pale ales, we occasionally find hop creep that will throw low levels of diacetyl, which requires some waiting for the yeast to clean up after themselves prior to cold crashing the tank.

We look for both complementary hop character (Amarillo® and Simcoe® are pretty classic in that regard), but we also really like looking for opposing hop character as well, as in Citra® and Columbus, or Mosaic® and Falconer’s Flight®. We just started hop selection last year and that has been an entirely new learning experience for us. 

We haven’t yet explored anything north of 6 lbs./barrel (3.2 oz. /gal. or 23 g/L) in dry hop additions, but that doesn’t mean we won’t. One of the greatest things about homebrewing is that you can do ridiculous money wasting things and even if it doesn’t turn out, it’s not your rent or mortgage payment. We have a 7-barrel system we use as a proving/testing ground for many different beers, and we dump a fair amount of them that don’t work out because our 20-barrel production site helps to keep the lights on. Maintaining the freedom to take a chance or trial out something in brewing both commercially and at home is key, in my opinion.


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## kadmium

I think the notion that you "capture" the aroma of the hops under pressure is nonsense, personally. If you think about it, you only build up to a certain pressure (say 10PSI) and then it gasses off anyway, so those aromas just leave via the spunding valve.

Secondly, you don't fill your keg with the gas in the fermenter, only the liquid, so even if that aroma WAS 'captured' in the fermenter, it wouldn't be making it into your keg or bottles.

Also, capturing the co2 at the end to carb doesn't trap any nasties, as there shouldn't be anything nasty in the beer unless you have an infection. The only thing getting 'blown off' is co2 and maybe some aroma compounds (as discussed above). Things like Diacetyl are in the beer itself, and are metabolised by the yeast, and so don't need to 'blow off' - The only other thing, sulfur (rotten egg smell, typical to some lager strains) will go away in the bottle through lagering, so again doesn't need to have an airlock with no resistance.

If anything, fermenting under pressure suppresses the esters created by the yeast, so you will end up with less yeast aromas (like Banana from heffeweizen) so it actually has some negatives when you ferment under pressure.

I pressure ferment, but that's because I am running hot and I am brewing beers with a cleaner yeast profile. If I was doing a heffe or ale that I want the yeast to shine, I would set the PSI on the spunder to like 1PSI to encourage the esters.


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## Staggerin

Thanks for your replies. I m just doing my first pressure fermented lager and its bringing up these questions. I was thinking about the sulphur smell, that seems to dissipate with age. So I was wondering if you are not letting this blow off that it may dissolve back into the beer and give an off flavour. But I as you say that disappears with time anyway, which it has done when Ive bottled.

On the hop aroma question, if you pressure transferred to a purged keg, would that help to retain the hop aroma?


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## kadmium

Oxygen is the main enemy of hop flavour and aroma, so doing a 'zero' oxygen transfer using a closed system is best practice. The easiest way to purge the keg is to fill it full with your sanitiser (starsan) and then transfer it out into either another keg or what not. I have a spare keg on rotation that I use a jumper (black disconnect to black with beer line) so that I can directly push the sanitiser out via the dip tubes. This empties the keg and leaves it full of only CO2. (burp the keg a few times before transfering to purge the headspace)

Then, use the same jumper to move the beer from the pressure fermenter into your now clean, sanitised and emptied keg. One tip, is to do the transfer and purge the keg right before, but fill and pressurise the day before, and then put your spunding valve on it to make sure pressure doesn't drop and you don't have a small leak. I take my spunding valve off when I cold crash, because it's not needed anymore and I found mine would get wet with condensation sometimes.

So, take spunding valve off fermenter, and cold crash. Fill a keg with starsan and burp, then pressurise. Put spunding valve on (should tell you the pressure, and make a note of what pressure it's at). Check the keg the next day to see if you have the same pressure (a keg full of just gas varies too much, so a keg full of starsan and small headspace is more reliable). If pressure is stable, transfer starsan out. If pressure has dropped, check keg for leaks, make sure lid is sealed correctly etc. Better to find out before filling it up, rather than later. Then, transfer beer into keg and enjoy.

Some people capture the CO2 during fermentation, by putting a keg next to fermenter, putting gas out on fermenter to liquid out on the keg, and spunding valve on gas post of keg. The gas flows from fermenter via gas post, into keg via liquid post, then pushes the gas out via the spunding valve on the gas post. If you sanitise the keg, and then capture the CO2 you end up with a fairly well purged keg (free co2) but that's too much effort, and I'd rather spend the 40c on gas to do it the way I do.


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## Staggerin

Thanks Kadmium. I will try that out when the next brew has finished.

I have run a couple of K&K brews through the pressure fermenter now, so I dont waste the good stuff working this all out. The first was a lager with the kit yeast, which stalled at 1018, tried raising the temp but nothing really happened. I assumed that the yeast didn't like the pressure? cold crashed , gelatine then kegged it anyway as its a light lager for the wife, and she is not very fussy.

The second brew is another lager kit but I have used S-189, gone mad for the first two days and now slowed right up. running at 15C. Spunding valve set at 5PSI.

Is this normal for a pressure ferment?


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## kadmium

Hey mate. Depends on the yeast, sometimes they under attenuate if you don't pitch enough. If you are going to ferment low you probably want to pitch like 3 packs or even 4 for a lager.

To truly take advantage of a pressure fermenter, and the main advantage is to ferment your lagers hot.

I would run 15PSI and 20c from the get go. Should be over and done within a week including diacetyl rest (considering you're fermenting at rest temps)

The advantage of pressure is it inhibits esters as well as off flavours from traditionally fermenting hot. A lager yeast under no pressure at 20c will not be great. But a lager yeast at 20-22c under pressure (15-20PSI) will produce clean, crisp ferments without the sulfur, fusel and other off flavours.

So next time, pitch two packets of lager yeast and let rip in the low 20s under 15PSI and see how it goes.

There are videos and guys online doing 1 week lagers including gelatine fining from grain to glass. A bit quick for me, but I tend to do a week in fermentation, cold crash and gelatine fine then keg. Total is around 10 days to keg. I then let it sit on serving pressure for about 2 weeks in the keg before drinking.







A slight bit of haze and condensation but this is a Czech Pils I did (ran out of whirlfloc on the day doh)

It has since dropped crystal clear *about 4 weeks in the keg *


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## Nickedoff

I'm very new to brewing but I've pressure fermented a lager at 15psi and two ales at 5psi, but with the temp at the high end of the recommended temp range for the yeast. Just using one pack of dry yeast for 20l and haven't had any issues. I reckon you could bump up the temp and pressure a bit.

Edit: kadmium beat me to it with a much better answer


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## Staggerin

Thanks Guys,

I did actually put two packets of kit yeast in the first one, but it looks like I'm running a bit too cool and too low a pressure from what you are saying. Luckily I can access my fermentation fridge remotely, so i will up the temp now and see how it looks tonight.

I was just worrying about it last night as after 2 days the krausen seemed to be dropping. I will take a proper SG sample tonight and see where it sits.

Thanks again.


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## kadmium

Yeah,

realistically the amount of yeast you need to pitch is based on a variety of factors, with fermentation temp, gravity, volume being the key aspects. Things like oxygenation etc come into play for liquid yeast, dry yeast doesn't need it.

The average pitch rate for an Ale is .75m per ml (or 7.5B per litre) and Lager is twice that (if fermenting at lager temps) so 15B for 1/L for a Wort of 1.040 once you go above this the amount scales up, but for a 1.040 and a standard 20L wort should require 150B cells for Ale and 300B for a lager. 

For a Lager around 1.055 you would need 200B for an Ale and 400B for a lager. Each dry package contains on average 20B per gram, so for 11g you get around 220B cells. This means a big pack requires a minimum of 2 for a lager. However, some Kit yeasts are only around 5g whereas the big players (Fermentis etc) come in 11.5g packets.

You would need 4x5g packets or 2x11.5g packets to get an adequate pitch for lagers at low temps. The advantage of brewing a Lager under pressure at Ale temps is you don't need as much yeast. So, fermenting under 15PSI at a higher temp means you can pitch it closer to Ale temps, being 1x 11.5g packet.

I would suggest if you intend on doing lagers, a cheap insurance to ensure you don't stall out is to use something like Saflager W-34/70 and pitch one packet into anything up to 1.055 OG and anything over pitch 2 packets if fermenting at 20c under pressure.

Your other option is to invest in making Yeast starters and going down the liquid yeast route (saves money in the long run, but does have an initial startup cost) which would let you play with other strains. For example my Czech Pils uses the Pilsner Urquell strain, although having said that Dry yeast have come a long way in terms of variety.


Also, don't forget you should ferment for around 4 days at low temps, and then raise the temp about 2c a day till you hit 20c then rest for a few days then crash. So ideally you would start around 12c and after about 4 days go 14, 16, 18, 20 then rest for 2 then crash (10 + 1 day to crash then 2 days cold) about 13 days or so. Running it warm, you can just ferment for about 5 days at 20c (until you reach FG and then leave it a day or two at FG to clean up) then crash. I use a TILT and monitor the gravity, once I see it has stabilised for a few days, I then crash it. Most ferments are done under a week, with a cold crash maybe a touch longer. I then fine with gelatin in the fermenter and transfer about 3 days later. I can get most beers out within 2 weeks and if I really wanted to go fast, I could go Kveik and probably ferment in 2 days, crash and fine and keg within a week but i'm not too interested in that.

Don't forget, that pressure will inhibit ALL esters, so particularly pay attention to classic estery beers like some ales, weis beers, heffeweizens etc. You can set your spunding valve to like 1PSI so it virtually acts as an airlock, and after fermentation is basically done you can ramp the pressure to try and catch some free carbonation but I don't usually bother.


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## Staggerin

Thanks, Great advice.


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## BrewLizard

I'm about to go down the pressure fermenting + closed transfer route after having a few beers that lost hop brightness, and one that turned to stale cardboard in 1 week!

I had already stopped cold crashing in the primary to avoid O2 ingress, and changed to keg hopping instead of fermenter dry hopping to keep hop aromas as fresh as possible. 

I'm going to start doing the method @kadmium posted at the top of this page (#741), using a vacuum-sealed, sanitary magnet to drop dry hops into the fermenting beer. My question is: what's the best way to add gelatine to the keg (or FV) when doing closed transfers? I've seen the syringe injection method, but I'm worried about injecting air.

Is there any way to have gelatine in a cup (with a magnet) on the wall of the fermenter and drop it in before cold crashing? Seems it would just turn into a lump of jelly...


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## kadmium

The easiest way to gelatine fine I have found is to use a Carbonation T piece! 2 carb caps and some beer line. 

Mix up the gelatine in a glass jar using boiling water. Pop lid on and let it cool down to room temp. 

Add it into PET bottle that you have purged with CO2. (Put the contraption on the bottle, and loosen the cap to allow co2 to flow through bottle)

Then I bubble co2 through the gelatine to purge it a touch more. 

Then push it through the gas post on the fermenter and bobs your aunt.


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## Nickedoff

kadmium said:


> The easiest way to gelatine fine I have found is to use a Carbonation T piece! 2 carb caps and some beer line.
> 
> Mix up the gelatine in a glass jar using boiling water. Pop lid on and let it cool down to room temp.
> 
> Add it into PET bottle that you have purged with CO2. (Put the contraption on the bottle, and loosen the cap to allow co2 to flow through bottle)
> 
> Then I bubble co2 through the gelatine to purge it a touch more.
> 
> Then push it through the gas post on the fermenter and bobs your aunt.



Dr Hans has a good YouTube video on how to do this @BrewLizard. I used the liquid post but then ended up with gelatine setting in the dip tube.


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## BrewLizard

Thanks guys. I’ll check out the video.

Forgot about carb caps. I have one + a tiny coke bottle that might do the trick.


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## Nickedoff

I needed a grand final beer quickly, so I put down a fwk (G&G draught) on Monday night with 2 packs of s-189. Put 25psi on it and ramped up from 18c to 24c. Pretty much fermented out now, tiny bit of krausen left. Just bumped it up to 25c to hopefully clean up so I can start cold crashing in the morning. 

Just a bit of fun, let's see how it goes.


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## kadmium

That's the great thing about pressure. Quick clean beers are easily had. Let us know how you go!


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## Nickedoff

Didn't quite make it, yeast is still cleaning up a bit so I'll leave it for a couple.more days.


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