# Coopers (Lager) Yeast



## livo (3/1/22)

My first question here; Lager, Faux Lager or Ale? 

What type / style of beer is Coopers Lager canned concentrate kit (Original Series) when made to the instructions on the packaging and using the provided yeast?

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think it is an Ale because all of the Original Series Coopers range are provided with C-R007 which is _"Coopers ale yeast - Our own strain, which was developed in-house, but it is not the same strain as the yeast in our commercial ales"_. I also read somewhere that it is produced under licence for them somewhere. Fermented between 21 and 27 'C and conditioned for 2 weeks (or more) it can't be a Lager (I think). Is this correct, or is it a faux lager (imitation or fake lager)? What is a faux lager anyway?

It is interesting that the Canadian Blonde from the International Series is also supplied with the same yeast while the Mexican Cerveza is supplied with C + L R3426 which is a blend of their ale yeast and *a* *lager yeast* (but which one?). I haven't found a definite explanation to this blended yeast and it could be for 2 reasons, or one or the other or something completely different. I've read it suggested that this could allow the lager yeast to do some work in an elevated temperature range (home brewer) or possibly for different flavour profile. I don't know enough to say. It probably should ferment at lower temperatures (below the recommended range) but I don't know for sure. I haven't tried it.

Coopers also says of the yeast they use "_These strains are commercially available dry yeasts and their details are held in confidence." _So their alphanumeric codes are just internal identifiers for other yeasts commercially available, and they don't want anybody to know. This brings me to the next question.

What are the 2 Lager yeasts available through the Coopers DIY Beer site? Coopers DIY Beer Yeast They have a Lager Yeast and a German Lager Yeast available in 15 g packs for $7.95 or $7.16 club rate. Recent interest in 34/70 and Diamond etc, has caused me to think about trying these out. Does anybody know what they are? Has anybody used them? What are they like? Both have a recommended temp range of 12 - 15 'C with the German saying it can go up to 22'C. With that in mind it is most likely to be the included lager yeast in the blend supplied with some of the kits and it's probably best to ferment the kits with this blended yeast at less than 22'C then.

If the other yeasts they use are commercially available, but just coded internally, then are these 2 lager yeasts the same as other commercial yeasts as well?


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## MHB (3/1/22)

I suspect its 497Y, see following.

By definition a Lager beer is brewed with Lager yeast. Lager yeast has a double genome (there are some lager yeasts with a 1.5 genome). A bit like Champagne is made with Champagne yeast, but importantly by what is called "the methode champenoise " or the Champaign method. I could make a still red wine with Champagne yeast but it wouldn’t be ”Champagne".
Similarly with Lager, it needs Lager yeast and used in a way that promotes the typical Lager profile.

The yeasts under the lids are really too small. You will get much better results with much larger pitches (nothing wrong with the quality of Cooper’s yeasts, just the size). As per the other thread, how you use yeast is just as important as the choice of yeast, you would be well advised to familiarise yourself with the maths.

I guess a Faux Lager is a bit like fizzy white wine, cheaper, quicker and easier to make than traditional Champagne, just not quite the same.
Mark


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## yankinoz (3/1/22)

MHB said:


> I suspect its 497Y, see following.
> 
> By definition a Lager beer is brewed with Lager yeast. Lager yeast has a double genome (there are some lager yeasts with a 1.5 genome). A bit like Champagne is made with Champagne yeast, but importantly by what is called "the methode champenoise " or the Champaign method. I could make a still red wine with Champagne yeast but it wouldn’t be ”Champagne".
> Similarly with Lager, it needs Lager yeast and used in a way that promotes the typical Lager profile.
> ...



My understanding is that AB Mauri supplies beer, wine and baking yeasts to many commercial enterprises. Why do they not turn up in home brew shops except in Coopers kits? Does that mean that Mauri is uninterested, and Coopers repackages their yeasts?


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## livo (3/1/22)

Yes. Hmmm, not exactly though is it? 12 - 20'C (Mauri) is different to 12 - 15'C and can tolerate up to 22'C (Coopers German Lager). I'm quite good at maths but I don't know a lot about yeast.

What would happen to the part of the blended yeast capable of tolerating 22'C if someone used the higher end of the recommended ferment temperatures, ie; above 22 out of 21'C up to 27'C? Wouldn't it die, or at the minimum stress and cause issues? It appears to me that Coopers have just put the same 21 - 27 'C range on all the instructions, even with the different yeasts supplied.


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## Rosco (3/1/22)

livo, all the Original Series kits were supplied with the Ale yeast (including the Lager and the Draught). You might find the attached file helpful in understanding which yeasts Coopers supplies with the kits, even though the information is a few years old now.


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## MHB (3/1/22)

Mauri probably supply the greater bulk of all the yeast used in home brew kits in Australia, their 514 Ale is very popular as is their lager, both are available all over the world. Unfortunately they are somewhat looked down on here but elsewhere are regarded as a premium product (go figure).

They are probably a perfect choice for Aussie conditions where most of the home brew is made at ambient temperatures varying from +30 to 10oC. These yeasts will perform very well without throwing too much in the way of off flavours.
Remember that the people here represent a very small fraction of the home brew produced; we get exposed to lots of good information on how to make better beer, part of which is using better yeasts. Better yeast requires better management to make better beer...

If conditions are too far from a yeasts proffered range, it won’t thrive. The initial pitch is a "seed" amount, it reproduces until it runs out of one of its required nutrients (usually Oxygen) then it starts making alcohol.
With blended yeast the one best suited to the conditions it finds itself in will reproduce faster and tend to dominate.
Kits can make very good beer, with temperature control and good hygiene truly excellent beer!
My biggest criticism of them is that the yeast supplied is way too small and not the best brewing option, clearly a good manufacturers option, if not a brewers first choice.

Looking at the 497Y info above it says 5.0*10^9 cells/gram.
Its commonly said that to make good lager you should be pitching at 1-1.5million cells/mL/oP
Let’s look at a 23L, 1.050 wort (12.5oP) and a pitch rate of 1million
The equation says we need (1*10^6)*23,000*12.5 = 287,500,000,000 or 2.875*10^11 cells
2.875*10^11 cells / 5*10^9 = 57.5g

In the spec sheet it also says 80-150g/hL or 100L, which is 18.4-34.5g/23L.
Clearly a lot less than the standard equation would indicate (it is probably based on 1.040 wort, 10oP and 20 IBU is pretty much what people call standard beer).
Personally I think 497Y is a bit of an outlier in yeast terms, it does perform very well at much lower pitch rates, its prone to throwing a bit of Acetaldehyde which matures out during lagering.
The above calculation also is for normal Lager conditions where yeast is pitched at 8-10oC and fermented way cooler than 20oC, usually in the 10-12oC range and sometimes cooler. In any case pitching warmer will encourage more reproduction and allows a smaller initial pitch.

Yeast is a many varied thing, finding ones you like, that work with your system and make the beer you want to drink is often a matter of experimentation.
Mark


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## livo (3/1/22)

As good an answer as I could hope to obtain. I'll re-read when I have a little more time. I bake bread, cook pizza from scratch and have done HB before today. I've also done other fermentation based practices that are less fussy than drinkable beer, including but not limited to Apple Cider Vinegar. Yeast is an amazing beastie and I'm going to try to learn more about it.

Many thanks Mark. You clearly know your stuff.

Edit: So from your calculation Mark, it would require 5.5 x 10 gram pack which is either 5 or 6 packs at $4 each. The spec sheet is either 3 or 4 packs. Why isn't yeast sold in quantities that better suite the required pitch rates? If kits actually work and produce 'good' beer with only 7 grams of yeast, how significant is increasing by 500 -700%?


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## livo (4/1/22)

Not that I've tried to find any supply of 500g packs of mauri brew 497, but is it really only good for 5 days at 4'C after opening? W34/70 only good for 7 days? I have 2 x 500g packs of mauri bread yeast in the fridge. The opened pack is still viable after more than 12 months and still makes good bread and pizza. Both packs are approaching their 2 year best before dates.

Edit: A guy in Wisconsin US bought 500 g of 497 in Jan 2020 and was still using it in May 2021. Included reuse, and finally dropping from 25g pitches to 10g with no noticeable difference in performance. In fact he said it was better with less dead yeast. He kept it in his fridge with vacuum applied each time he opened it. Source: brewersfriend.com


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## yankinoz (4/1/22)

Edit: A guy in Wisconsin US bought 500 g of 497 in Jan 2020 and was still using it in May 2021. Included reuse, and finally dropping from 25g pitches to 10g with no noticeable difference in performance. In fact he said it was better with less dead yeast. He kept it in his fridge with vacuum applied each time he opened it. Source: brewersfriend.com
[/QUOTE]

Did the cheesehead (aka Wisconsonian) maybe vacuum pack between uses?


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## livo (4/1/22)

Yes. He said he vacuum packed each use. 
Brewers Friend thread It is towards the end on page 3 where the discussion turns to storage.

There is also another guy here on this site, from UK I think, who says he has been using a 500 g pack or 34/70 which he simply keeps in his fridge. Says he drinks 70 units a week. I'd have to search for the thread but have to go out. While the yeast my lose vitality over time if poorly handled / stored, I doubt very much that it will die within a week of opening and freezing is always another option with dried yeast.


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## razz (4/1/22)

I had a brick of 34/70 for about 3 years and always kept it vacuum packed. No issues.


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## livo (21/1/22)

I have my first batch of Coopers Lager under temperature controlled fermentation (13.5'C+/-0.5) with a specialty lager yeast. I used 1 packet of Lallemande Diamond Lager yeast and it has been in the FV for 8 days today. It has been holding the same SG now for 3 consecutive days and today is day 4 if it's the same again, which I'm pretty sure it will be. There has been barely any airlock activity since the end of day 3 really but the FV / airlock remains pressure +ve.

Lalbrew says this; _"Vigorous fermentation that can be completed in 5 to 7 days." _so I guess it is ok to go ahead and bottle today. I've read that some say to allow 10- 14 days to primary ferment but I think it's done.

The question is in the actual SG readings, and I've allowed for temperature adjustment due to colder test readings. My hydrometer readings are at 1.008 but being probably around 15'C by the time I extract the sample and de-gas, I'm allowing 0.0014 points. So, I'm I'm assuming that my FG is around 1.0066. This may be what you get with this yeast. I don't have an empty FV for secondary so I hope I'm not going to over-prime.

Advice appreciated.


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## Swannie (22/1/22)

Bump it up to a higher temp for the diacetyl rest. Interested in what you get, as I read the can isn't exactly lager malt.

I would predict it will be clean, and with some lagering, crisp. But I doubt you will get that pilsner of Czeck, or melanoidin of German lagers.


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## livo (22/1/22)

Thanks Swannie. Didn't get to bottle yesterday so not too late. How long for diacetyl rest at what temp would be recommended?

Just read 2-4 days at only 3-4'F (so 1'C) higher. Does that sound about right?

Diamond yeast; - 10'C - 15'C. If I raise my temp set from 13.5'C +/- 0.5 to 14.5'C +/- 0.5 that should do the trick, (I think, never done it before).


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## yankinoz (22/1/22)

Forb


livo said:


> Thanks Swannie. Didn't get to bottle yesterday so not too late. How long for diacetyl rest at what temp would be recommended?
> 
> Just read 2-4 days at only 3-4'F (so 1'C) higher. Does that sound about right?
> 
> Diamond yeast; - 10'C - 15'C. If I raise my temp set from 13.5'C +/- 0.5 to 14.5'C +/- 0.5 that should do the trick, (I think, never done it before).


For lagers most sources recommend a diacetyl rest at 20 or higher. The very experienced Martin Kai (braukaiser) goes to 22: Diacetylrest at 22 C (72 F) | Braukaiser

But how much diacetyl you get, therefore how much the rest matters, depends on the strain of yeast. Still. if you want a very clean lager, you might want to err on the high side.


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## livo (22/1/22)

Great info yank. Thanks. I'm heading down to the shed now.


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## MHB (22/1/22)

Two points that need to be born in mind.
First a DA rest is only necessary if you have excess DA that needs to be metabolised. The amount of DA is both strain and process dependant. If you use the right amount of healthy yeast in a well aerated wort, odds on you won’t have enough DA to need to do a DA rest.
Second Lager yeast will keep working down to something less than 5oC (again strain dependant). The traditional way to use lager yeast is to cool from fermenting temperatures (8-12oC) to Lagering temperatures (<4oC) slowly. This allows the yeast to keep working as the beer cools and it will also metabolise any DA.
If you crash cool a lager, the yeast will go dormant and not do the job of maturing the beer that is part of what makes Lager the beer it is.

I rarely find a DA rest necessary, do a VDK test, if you don’t have a problem skip it, if you have excess DA, it’s a handy remedial step.
Mark

PS
I find a couple of 250mL Erlenmeyer (conical) flasks really good for doing VDK tests.
M


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## livo (22/1/22)

Now I'm totally confused. Increase temperature by 1-2"C. No, go for 6.5- 8.5"C. No, hang on. Cool it slowly to 5'C. 

Coopers Lager kit. Swapped yeast out to Diamond. 9 days at temp controlled 13.5"C +/_0.5. SG steady at 1.0066 for last 4 days (going on 5). In a bucket FV in my shed with the luxury of temp control. ie: "Home Brew".

I'm not going to cold crash as I have no "suck-back" protection. 

I will attempt to do a VDK test and try to make a judgement about bottling day. What is a "Hot Water Bath"? (as in what temperature?) I'm not expecting to make premium European lager in Australian summer conditions. I'm hoping for an improvement on dumping full batches made in heat with burnt rubber flavours.


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## livo (22/1/22)

Well, to my surprise that worked and even though I doubted my nose's capability, I was able to detect a different aroma from the heated sample, and yes, I could describe it to be buttery.

So, I guess that means I need to do a DA rest, but at what temperature? Slightly elevated to the yeast upper limit of15'C or full outside at 20 - 22'C? 

I'll raise it to 15 first which will take a while and await further instruction / recommendation.


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## philrob (22/1/22)

If you have temperature control, just set it at about 20ºC and let it rise naturally, then leave for a couple of days, and slowly reduce the temperature again.
I tend to drop it 1ºC each morning and evening until I get to as low as my fridge will take it.


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## livo (22/1/22)

Thanks. I can do that and it's already started. I didn't believe my nose and thought I might be imagining it, so I had my wife and daughter do the sniff test. They both agreed that the sample from the same tube were different when split into 2 sanitised jars and the test performed. Near boiling water and allowed to sit for only 15 minutes. Both samples then brought to the same lower temperature and it was obvious. I can't think of a better description than buttery. Not a huge difference but it is there.


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## livo (23/1/22)

Ok. This is great. How long do you leave it at 20'?

If I allow my fridge to bring it down to say 4'C, from 20' at 2' per day it will take another 8 days. So, that's the 10 it's already been in, plus a few (maybe 3) at 20'C and then 8 days to cool, which means 3 weeks in the FV. Is it then ready to bottle? Or do I leave it for longer? or rack it to a secondary and keep it cool? I've now got a second fridge with another STC-1000 on they way, so I can do that. Can I "lager" it in the bottles?

Sorry about all the questions but this is new ground for me. It's a bit different to k&k for beer to drink in 3 weeks from start to pouring into a glass.

When the FV temperature started to rise the airlock started bubbling again. Yeast activity or volume increase pressure I'm not sure. I'll check it for activity today.

Edit: I just read that it can take up to 50 days in the FV and based upon the sequence timing used, I'm actually rushing it. They say 20 days to ferment, 3 days diacetyl rest, several days to slowly cool and then left until day 50. That's a lot of FV time where you can't be making another brew. I'm going to need a bigger shed.

Edit:Edit: And now I've just read this from MHB in another thread. Carbonating a Lager in the bottle. This will be my next hurdle.


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## MHB (23/1/22)

Lager brewing is both time consuming and technically much more demanding than brewing ale. That’s probably why over 90% of the mega brewers make lager and over 90% of craft/home brewers make ale.

It’s well worth taking a little time to learn about the process of lager brewing and to plan ahead, as yes it tends to be a bit of a fridge hog.
BYO had a fairly good step by step introduction to the process. It’s a few years old now and there have been a lot of "new" ideas like pressure fermentation since then. Any process change made to help speed up the process is going to change the beer you end up making, that’s just a given. Up to you to decide if you can live with the changes in flavour. Again learning and planning is a good first step, so before investing in a pressure fermenter at a minimum do a bit of basic research, can save you a lot of time and wasted beer down the track.
Mark


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## livo (23/1/22)

Yep. I'm learning a lot real quick and it isn't exactly what I'd thought. A decade ago a HBS guy told me to just brew lager in winter cause it's cold and you don't need to worry about keeping it warm. Just use some lager yeast and that's it. I never got around to it so here I am today, building the plane in the air.

What I've just read, I think comes from Dr Chris White (Whitelabs) and Jamil Zainasheff, Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation., or it has been paraphrased and referenced to create a guide to the process. I had no idea it would take up to 50 days in the FV so the question is, can I take it out of the FV and lager / condition it in the bottle shortly after the diacetyl rest, or does it need to lager on the yeast cake?

MHB, your post in the linked thread above is of some concern to me in stating that it may be necessary to add some fresh yeast to the bottling bucket to ensure active carbonation and doing it all while cold. What would be the process involved here?

The trouble is with the time lag from this batch, I'm going to run out of drinking beer.  I better go and buy another bucket. 

I may need to look into these "faux" lagers, whatever they are.


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## Westheimer (23/1/22)

livo said:


> Well, to my surprise that worked and even though I doubted my nose's capability, I was able to detect a different aroma from the heated sample, and yes, I could describe it to be buttery.
> 
> So, I guess that means I need to do a DA rest, but at what temperature? Slightly elevated to the yeast upper limit of15'C or full outside at 20 - 22'C?
> 
> I'll raise it to 15 first which will take a while and await further instruction / recommendation.



Hi Livo
The below may be of interest to you:









Lager Method


NOTE: The method I discuss here includes ideas similar to those proposed by Ludwig Narziss and Greg Noonan long before I came along, a couple dudes often credited for inspiring the public to brew a…




brulosophy.com





Cheers


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## livo (23/1/22)

That's a great piece. Thanks Westheimer.


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## livo (24/1/22)

It's interesting that the writer of this article specifically states that additional yeast at bottling is not required with this method.

I always like to read comments, questions and answers on pages like this one Westheimer, and there are a few interesting points straight up. I haven't read all of it but it's good that he actually answers and responds.

1) Suck back is discussed in the cooling to lager temperature phase, with debate about the time it takes to perform Vs impact of suck back. Does a slow reduction in temp over several days alleviate the issue compared to a straight cold crash? Science says it shouldn't. If the yeast continues to provide even a little CO2 then it might, but will it after 10 days primary and 3 days D rest. I'd say probably not much.

2) It appears to be only a very short time after the "Method" was shared that the writer is steering away from the process himself. He says that he rarely uses the cold fermentation process anymore and simply uses reliable lager strains and ferments at ale temperatures. L13 Global, L17 Harvest or 34/70 @ 19'C for 3-4 days then 22'C for 2-3 days then crash. 

I guess I have a lot of experimentation to perform. If he first baulked at 50 - 60 day ferments, was aiming to cut that in half and has now gone to "typical" ale ferments over a matter of weeks then I guess that will be a path to explore, at least in summer anyway. Keeping it cool in winter shouldn't be too much of an issue.


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## livo (25/1/22)

At the end of today I'll begin to reduce temperature gradually, hoping not to have problems with air going back into the FV. I guess I'm committed to the process this time so I'll just have to accept a few more weeks in the fridge. 

My next decision will be whether or not to use "bottling yeast". The brulosophy method says it isn't required, but I've now read a few posts by Mark (MHB) where it is recommended. If you read this Mark, you say in the Resch's Pilsner (silver bullet) recipe thread that 514 is adequate (a cracker). How much would you use in a typical 23 litre bucket? I guess it can't hurt so it will be a bottling bucket, fresh hydrated kit yeast and bulk prime.


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## Paddy Melon (25/1/22)

Hi Livo,
I'm not sure but I think you are overly concerned about the suck back during cold crashing. If you are concerned about the liquid in your bubbler getting into your brew I haven't experienced that happening and I cold crash all the time now. I do however use a combination of water and vodka in the bubbler, just in case. If it's air getting in from what I have read there is an ample CO2 blanket over the brew which is heavier than O2 so that shouldn't be a problem either. But if I'm missing something some one will pick me up.


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## livo (25/1/22)

Never done it before and I'm doing gradual cool over several days. I'm just going to see what happens. Liquid in the air lock shouldn't be a problem as gas should just bubble through in reverse if anything. I haven't pulled the airlock to do SG recently so there should be CO2 after 3 days at 20'C.

I may investigate Soda stream bottle for future if it is a viable solution.


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## philrob (25/1/22)

I haven't used an airlock for years. A couple layers of clingwrap held in place with the rubber seal from the lid works great. And you get to see what goes on in the fermenter!


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## yankinoz (25/1/22)

philrob said:


> I haven't used an airlock for years. A couple layers of clingwrap held in place with the rubber seal from the lid works great. And you get to see what goes on in the fermenter!



But that steady bubble bubble is so hypnotic.

What's the rate, if any, of oxygen diffusion through clingwrap?


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## philrob (25/1/22)

I don't worry about that. I bottle my brews at 10 to 14 days in. If I rack off the fermenter for lagering I do it under cover of cO2.


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## livo (25/1/22)

philrob said:


> I haven't used an airlock for years. A couple layers of clingwrap held in place with the rubber seal from the lid works great. And you get to see what goes on in the fermenter!



My father used to do "open fermentation" for some of his brews. No airlock or clingwrap with a rubber band. Just a loose fitting lid to keep settling nasties out. 
I recently bought 12 X 60 litre lidded Willow plastic bins from the big B at a good price. I've been using a few for hydroponic cucumbers, recently 1 for sterilisation of my bottles, etc. I have been tempted to do a 50 litre open ferment but I don't think they are food grade. Maybe a way to get rid of the second can of Brigalow just to see what happens.

I know the yanks (sorry yank) use similar bins for fermentation but they have a different (brand) name for them and they may be food grade. I know they are ok for some things but maybe not beer. No hurry or need to try really with what I have on hand.

Cooling phase has begun with no noticeable change in +ve pressure from the FV so far. Tomorrow morning will show if any has occurred.


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## livo (26/1/22)

This is from the comment in the Burnt Rubber thread Mark. Am I missing something?



MHB said:


> .....
> Never leave the beer on the yeast cake for more than 14 Days (EVER!)
> .....
> Mark



I pitched my lager yeast on 13/1/22 and did primary ferment for 9 days (approx), then raised the temp for 3 days for the rest. Today is day 2 of temperature drop to Lager temps, but also day 14 on the yeast. Is it OK to leave it in the primary fermenter or not? I can transfer to a secondary vessel, off the yeast if required as it's going to be there for at least another 2 weeks or so, probably.

Should I;
a) leave it where it is, drop the temperature and lager on the yeast?
b) transfer to a secondary FV, then as above?
OR,
c) bottle it and lager the bottles in the fridge? (additional yeast or no?)


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## livo (27/1/22)

Now down to 10.5'C with no vacuum back into the fermenter. Still just slightly +ve with water level in the airlock still higher on the outlet. I'll be down to low temperature by Sunday and I doubt there'll be any significant suck-back if any. It appears to be going OK.


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## livo (28/1/22)

Down to 8.0 today and first sign of -ve pressure (vacuum). Airlock tube slightly higher on the fermenter side.


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## MHB (28/1/22)

Mate if you just stuffed a cotton ball in the neck of the airlock any bugs in the air being drawn in will be filtered out.
It’s called "tortuous path entrapment". The rate air is drawn in is very slow and whatever you had in your airlock (water, sanitiser, vodka...) should also clean out most any dust, remember that most bacteria travel on dust particles.
I think you might be over concerned about suck-back, airlocks work in both directions.
Mark


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## livo (29/1/22)

I'm not worried about. I understand the air lock will work both ways and that the CO2 in the fermenter is adequate. Just observations about the relationship of fv pressure to temperature. It's taken a substantial temp change over several days to even become noticeable.

I'm more concerned about whether it should or should not be still in the primary fermenter with the yeast after now exceeding 14 days.

Then I'll need to know about bottling yeast.


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## livo (4/2/22)

Ready to bottle this over the weekend. I would appreciate a little advice as I've not ever done this style of beer before. I can use a bottling bucket and bulk prime. 
Question 1) Should I bottle this cold, straight from the lagering fridge or warm it up a bit to room temperature overnight?
Question 2) Is additional priming yeast required or not, and how much if it is?


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## livo (5/2/22)

I've found this relating to carbonating Lager, (thanks to MHB again)

_"Allow the beer to warm back up and like temporary haze will promptly go back into solution - undoing all you have achieved by lagering.
Best to rack the beer to a priming bucket Cold (leaving all the precipitated matter in the primary) with the right amount of sugar mix well and bottle. If you are worried about the amount of yeast in solution you could add a bit of a nice clean yeast to the priming bucket (rehydrate it first) only a gram or two would be enough for a 23L batch"_ 

So this is the plan. Bottling bucket, bulk prime and add 1 gram of hydrated new lager yeast, bottle and sit for a few weeks back in the temp controlled fridge at 13.5'C. Then I'll chill a couple and see how it went.

The SG has dropped right down to 1.002 yesterday and it is a very clean, clear and crisp beer already so I'm hoping for a success with this. A lot of time and fridge space over quite a few weeks now. I think I'll wait for winter before doing it again.


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## Jolls (6/2/22)

Thanks for the commentry Livo - been following your adventure. My beer ofter next will be a lager in a keg; an early 20th Century Dinner Ale.

Cheers 

jolls


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## livo (6/2/22)

It's been a lot more than I expected it to involve and a far cry from just using lager yeast and fermenting cold. It's now around 24 days since I started this brew. Cold ferment, diacetyl rest, slow temp drop over several days and a week or so at 2'C, then into a bottling bucket, bulk primed with additional yeast and bottled cold. I'm not certain of the effectiveness of my process to this point of having bottles conditioning, and I still have questions. 

What temperature should I have the bottles for carbonation / conditioning? For how long?
After rehydrating bottling yeast, what about temperature shock from adding it to the bottling bucket at 2'C?
How would you go about harvesting the yeast from the primary?

I guess I'll find out in a couple of weeks if it worked or not.


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## livo (13/2/22)

Today marks 1 month since I put this brew together (got my dates mixed up). After priming and bottling at low temperature I returned the bottles to the fridge and allowed the temp to come up over a few days and then they have sat out in ambient for a few more days to carbonate. I put a couple in the fridge 48 hours ago and just cracked one. The process has worked and I don't have any "off" flavours, but I'm a bit disappointed in the end result and it probably comes down to using the Cooper's Lager extract kit. I've said before that it is a bitter beer and this has really come through. I used to drink bitter beer all the time so it won't go to waste but it wasn't worth the effort and time, although I've learnt a lot in the process. Maybe it will mellow from some further lagering.

I guess I'll wait for colder months to use up my other lager yeasts and I'll need to find a more suitable base. Wouldn't you think an extract labelled Lager would be a satisfactory choice to make? Any suggestions?


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## Reveirs (14/2/22)

livo said:


> Today marks 2 months since I put this brew together. After priming and bottling at low temperature I returned the bottles to the fridge and allowed the temp to come up over a few days and then they have sat out in ambient for a few more days to carbonate. I put a couple in the fridge 48 hours ago and just cracked one. The process has worked and I don't have any "off" flavours, but I'm a bit disappointed in the end result and it probably comes down to using the Cooper's Lager extract kit. I've said before that it is a bitter beer and this has really come through. I used to drink bitter beer all the time so it won't go to waste but it wasn't worth the effort and time, although I've learnt a lot in the process. Maybe it will mellow from some further lagering.
> 
> I guess I'll wait for colder months to use up my other lager yeasts and I'll need to find a more suitable base. Wouldn't you think an extract labelled Lager would be a satisfactory choice to make? Any suggestions?



I would use unhopped extract and 20grams of noble hops for a classic German lager flavour.


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## livo (15/2/22)

Thanks Reveirs. What would be the process? Kit extracts require no boil. Dry hopping / steeping grains etc as processes are understood but I haven't bothered at this early stage of my renewed interest in the hobby. Would the use of unhopped extract and noble hops involve a boil, hopping and cooling to achieve the fermentable wort? I'm not perturbed by the prospect as I've done AG in the past, but I'm not sure it's where I want to head right now.

However, within a few months when the winter is here and lager is a better prospect, I may just go and have a crack.


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## yankinoz (15/2/22)

livo said:


> Ready to bottle this over the weekend. I would appreciate a little advice as I've not ever done this style of beer before. I can use a bottling bucket and bulk prime.
> Question 1) Should I bottle this cold, straight from the lagering fridge or warm it up a bit to room temperature overnight?
> Question 2) Is additional priming yeast required or not, and how much if it is?


The beer will warm as you proceed. Then you can finish raising it to carbonating temps. Slower is better.

For what it's worth, I've bottled and carbonated Oktoberfests that had been lagered below six degrees for well over a month, in one case >rwo months. No priming yeast. At about 20 degrees, all clouded in the bottle and then cleared within a week. At ten days a test bottle was carbonated, so I brought the rest back down for more lagering and liked the results. So did tasters.

Cautions. In each case the yeast was S-189. Other yeasts may respond differently.. Many experienced brewers recommend priming yeast, and I've seen one or two accounts where brewers regretted not doing so.

To sum up: you'd very likely have success without priming yeast, but priming yeast would guarantee success.


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## livo (15/2/22)

Thanks yanks. All good. I went with very low level priming yeast and it has carbonated well. I now have them all in the fridge and they are getting better by the day. I'm only allowing myself 1 longy a day, but even at that rate they won't last long enough to really sit at low temp for long time. If some of my other brews kick in early, they may last a little longer. I should be able to stretch a few out to see what I really have achieved, (but I do get thirsty sometimes).

Winter will be a better prospect now that I know what to expect.


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## livo (19/10/22)

MHB said:


> Personally I think 497Y is a bit of an outlier in yeast terms, it does perform very well at much lower pitch rates, its prone to throwing a bit of Acetaldehyde which matures out during lagering.


Well, I've done a few batches of "faux Lager" over winter using modified (cheat) methods, and both S23 and W34/70 yeasts. They've generally turned out ok. Yesterday, I accidentally opened a bottle of S23 that has only been in the bottles for about 3 weeks. I say accidentally because I have 2 other batches that are older and I just grabbed from the wrong stack. Anyway, the bottle I opened is distinctly "green apples" (possibly even Apple Cider Vinegar) so I'm assuming it is Acetaldehyde. I did taste a bit of this in an earlier batch but not as pronounced as this one. From what I've read, briefly, it could be that it just needs more time conditioning / lagering in the bottles and hopefully this flavour will disappear because it isn't good.

My ale ferments are conditioning in about 2 to 3 weeks usually. I've put a couple of bottles from the older brews in the fridge to try today.

Would it be better to continue to "lager" the newer batch at ambient or fridge temperature to see if this flavour can be conditioned out?


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## MHB (19/10/22)

One of the tricks with Lager is to keep the yeast active as it cools from fermenting temperatures (8 to12oC) to lagering temps (-1 to 2oC).

The yeast needs to be active to finish a bunch of reactions, including Acetaldehyde reduction. If you crash chill, the yeast is likely to go dormant and not do much cleaning up after itself.
By controlling the rate of cooling to around 1.5 to 2oC/day the yeast will keep working longer and will remove most of the unwanted by-products made earlier in the ferment,
Good to note that a bigger pitch, lower pitching and fermentation temperatures are both very important to the amount of side issues produced by the yeast.
Mark


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## livo (20/10/22)

Thanks Mark. I'm not too optimistic (yet again). Even the older 2 batches are a bit bluuurrgh. I did the same thing a few times over the winter, and it worked ok but these last 2 double buckets (4 buckets in total) seemed to go astray. I didn't use a ferment chamber and just relied on the winter chill to keep temps down for the initial stage, then warmed them on a heat mat for a few days and then just allowed them to cool down again naturally. I've got about 120 bottles of very ordinary product, so I guess I'll just let it sit for a few weeks and test it again. It could well be going in the drain. 1 batch is better than the other 3, but they all have green apple / ACV taste to them.

All ale ferments for me at the moment. They are just less work and more reliable, I think.


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## DucatiBoyStu (31/10/22)

The Coopers Lager yeast is a mix of 2 different yeasts

As for Maui, they make yeast specifically to Coopers specs. And no, the tin yeast is NOT the same as the brewery yeast. They have tried to dry the Coopers yeast and it does not work. This came from Dr Tim himself when I got the chance to ask him.


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