# Newbie Question About Ag Brewing



## Truman42 (15/8/11)

Just been reading the excellent post on "Moving to all grain brewing for thirty bucks" by NickJd on this forum. Its a great post with lots of information but I have a couple of questions.

1. So when you bring it back to the boil after squeezing out as much as you can from the bag do you then put your hops back in for the time the recipe suggests that you may be following? Eg you might throw in a bag of hops for 20 mins then another type for 10 mins whilst boiling the entire time?

2. When he pours the wort into the fermenter he doesn't mention adding any sugar or malt. Is this just a kit extract thing we have to do? My understanding is that the All grain method is just replacing the kit extract we would use but we still need to add sugar/dextrose malt extract like we would with a kit?


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## jbumpstead (15/8/11)

Truman said:


> Just been reading the excellent post on "Moving to all grain brewing for thirty bucks" by NickJd on this forum. Its a great post with lots of information but I have a couple of questions.
> 
> 1. So when you bring it back to the boil after squeezing out as much as you can from the bag do you then put your hops back in for the time the recipe suggests that you may be following? Eg you might throw in a bag of hops for 20 mins then another type for 10 mins whilst boiling the entire time?
> 
> 2. When he pours the wort into the fermenter he doesn't mention adding any sugar or malt. Is this just a kit extract thing we have to do? My understanding is that the All grain method is just replacing the kit extract we would use but we still need to add sugar/dextrose malt extract like we would with a kit?



Hey Truman,

Once you have squeezed the bag you have your wort ready to boil.

Add the hops at the appropriate time as indicated in the recipe you are following. Most are a 60 min boil, when a recipe states the hop addition time its from the end of the boil (e.g. 30 mins = 30 mins remaining in boil, 15 mins = 15 mins remaining in boil). Once you put the hops in the boil you leave them in.

No additional sugar/dex is required for all grain unless specified in the recipe. You are extracting all your fermentable sugars from the grain.

Cheers,
Justin.


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## Superoo (15/8/11)

Truman said:


> Just been reading the excellent post on "Moving to all grain brewing for thirty bucks" by NickJd on this forum. Its a great post with lots of information but I have a couple of questions.
> 
> 1. So when you bring it back to the boil after squeezing out as much as you can from the bag do you then put your hops back in for the time the recipe suggests that you may be following? Eg you might throw in a bag of hops for 20 mins then another type for 10 mins whilst boiling the entire time?
> 
> 2. When he pours the wort into the fermenter he doesn't mention adding any sugar or malt. Is this just a kit extract thing we have to do? My understanding is that the All grain method is just replacing the kit extract we would use but we still need to add sugar/dextrose malt extract like we would with a kit?



Assuming you are going to boil the wort for 60 minutes.

After squeezing the bag, you simply keep the heat on.
When it starts to boil, you would set a timer to 60 minutes.
Add your bittering hops with 60 minutes to go (at the very start of the boil).
Add your flavouring hops with 20 minutes of boil time left to go.
Add your aroma hops when you turn the heat off at the end of the boil (sometimes known as 0 minutes).


with AG, when pouring the wort to the fermenter, you dont add any malt / sugar usually, all the sugars you need have been extracted from the grain.

There are variations from the above, but this is a general guide.

Cheers


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (15/8/11)

The reason you add sugar in a kit brew is generally:

1. To thin the beer out (in case the OG of the kit watered down is too high) and;
2. More importantly, in the reduction process (i.e. 'dehydrating' the wort created from a mash into 1-1.5kg of extract), some fermentable sugars will be lost, hence the sugar is there to replace it, and to give the yeast an adequate amount to munch on.

So, if you didn't have 'dehydrated' wort (i.e. Kit/extract), you'd never need to add the sugar (with specific recipes s/a belgian dubbel excepted). Fresh wort (a bit like anything fresh) is far better than anything else. 

Think of it like the supermarket orange juice where the juice it came from was concentrated (probably to aid transportation) then remade. They always add vitamin C into it, just because the whole concentration/dehydration process destroys some (most) meaningful nutritional value.

But fresh OJ always tastes better and is better for you. It just takes longer to make.

Think of all-grain brewing as obtaining the oranges yourself and making your own juice, and kit brewing as getting the small container from the supermarket and adding water yourself to make juice.

Goomba


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## Nick JD (15/8/11)

Watch this (and no, that's not the real me :unsure: ).


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## Truman42 (15/8/11)

Thanks heaps for the explanations. You sure thats not you in that video Nick? They seem to know everything you do..  

Just a couple of more questions.

1. Do you buy your hops already in the bag ready to go and if not where can I get the bags from? Also should I use hop pellets or flowers etc?

2. Where is the best place to get the actual wort bag from?


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## Mikedub (15/8/11)

Truman, check the sponsors at the top of the page for your bag and hop needs,




Nick JD said:


> Watch this (and no, that's not the real me :unsure: ).




does anyone use a can of O2 into the wort prior to pitching, as used in this video,


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## Nick JD (15/8/11)

Truman said:


> Thanks heaps for the explanations. You sure thats not you in that video Nick?



I'm not as pretty. 

For the bag, you can buy premade, or if you're a tightarse, Spotlight has white (or ivory) 100% _Polyester Swiss Voile_. Don't ask a young hottie where it is - they never know. Ask an old Nana attendant. Start near the curtain material section.


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## Malted (15/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> Spotlight ... Don't ask a young hottie where it is - they never know.



I had quite a good time following a young hottie all around the store. It got to the point that I was going to suggest she ascend a ladder to look for it... h34r:


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## Superoo (15/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> Don't ask a young hottie where it is - they never know. Ask an old Nana attendant. Start near the curtain material section.


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## Nick JD (15/8/11)

Malted said:


> I had quite a good time following a young hottie all around the store. It got to the point that I was going to suggest she ascend a ladder to look for it... h34r:



There's a young lady at my local spotlight who is just, like, :icon_drool2:. Come to think of it, I do need some more elastic for my y-fronts...


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## Rurik (15/8/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> The reason you add sugar in a kit brew is generally:
> 
> ...
> 2. More importantly, in the reduction process (i.e. 'dehydrating' the wort created from a mash into 1-1.5kg of extract), some fermentable sugars will be lost, hence the sugar is there to replace it, and to give the yeast an adequate amount to munch ...
> ...




How? Suger does not boil off it just concentrates.


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## np1962 (15/8/11)

Malted said:


> I had quite a good time following a young hottie all around the store. It got to the point that I was going to suggest she ascend a ladder to look for it... h34r:


Careful Malted, if that hotty works at Spotlight at Gepps Cross it may be my niece.  
Nige


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## dicko (15/8/11)

Malted said:


> I had quite a good time following a young hottie all around the store. It got to the point that I was going to suggest she ascend a ladder to look for it... h34r:



Totally :icon_offtopic: 

Mmmm! nice beaver! :lol: 


Courtesy Leslie Neilsen.

Cheers


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (15/8/11)

Rurik said:


> How? Suger does not boil off it just concentrates.



Sugar does concentrate, but it'll be whether the chemicals within the chain breakdown upon overboiling and whether the sugars are fermentable (edible by yeast). IIRC - the sugars are still sugars but harder for the yeast to eat. At least that's what I read, though it were many years ago, and I couldn't give you a source.

It's where the OJ analogy came from as well. Lots of boiling will destroy nutritional value of anything.

Goomba


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## Spork (15/8/11)

Watched the U-tube clip. So - BIAB is an Australian invention?


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## Rurik (15/8/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Sugar does concentrate, but it'll be whether the chemicals within the chain breakdown upon overboiling and whether the sugars are fermentable (edible by yeast). IIRC - the sugars are still sugars but harder for the yeast to eat. At least that's what I read, though it were many years ago, and I couldn't give you a source.
> 
> It's where the OJ analogy came from as well. Lots of boiling will destroy nutritional value of anything.
> 
> Goomba



I have never heard of this and would like to see the reference before I make up my mind about it. If you cannot back up these statements do not go spreading them as if they are fact as it will only add to the confusion.


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## felten (15/8/11)

You're probably talking about maillard reactions, and melanoidins.


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## Rurik (16/8/11)

Why would maillard recaction be part of this process when according to the artical these happen at 151c ?


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## felten (16/8/11)

It says they happen noticeably at 151c. They can occur at lower temperatures, but at a decreased rate.

I'm no expert on this anyway, just pointing out that's what LRG was probably talking about.


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## Silo Ted (16/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> Watch this (and no, that's not the real me :unsure: ).




Uh, WHA ! ? So much to speak about in that video. 

Big pot - looks like 30 litres - has a tap on it
BIAB style - Aussie reference was sweet
Mash PH (with strips, d'uh) - No-One here knows the calc for relevant pH. in on traditional nano-brewhouses
I should ask WTF !? with the wort in a bowl sample, pipetting in some iodine. 

And more more more. 

It's a giid video. Clever, but anal. 

Which is funny, if you think about it.


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## Silo Ted (16/8/11)

Too much science ! ! Must repel knowledge ! !



Thanks for introducing this bird to me, Nick. :chug:


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## Nick JD (16/8/11)

I'm pretty sure that the goop in the kit cans isn't "boiled" down to that thickness ... it's vacuum evaporated at a low temperature. Still boiled I s'pose, but cold boiling.


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## flano (16/8/11)

I have watched her videos a few times now.

Imagine if she was your mother in law.


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## Malted (16/8/11)

NigeP62 said:


> Careful Malted, if that hotty works at Spotlight at Gepps Cross it may be my niece.
> Nige



Thanks for the tip Nige, I shall go to Gepps Cross Spotlight for a look around. Which section should I look in? She'd be fine with ladders would she, not scared of heights or anything? h34r:


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## Silo Ted (16/8/11)

beernorks said:


> I have watched her videos a few times now.
> 
> Imagine if she was your mother in law.



Probability of having a lesbian mother-in-law = 3%


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## Truman42 (16/8/11)

Thanks for the advice and tips, think I'll ask a hottie at Spotlight first and after shes looked for awhile then try the nanna..LOL

What sort of hops should I use pellets or the flowers? And what do you do with them? Do they just go into a voille bag and get dunked into the wort at the right time?


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## bignath (16/8/11)

Truman said:


> Thanks for the advice and tips, think I'll ask a hottie at Spotlight first and after shes looked for awhile then try the nanna..LOL




No hotties at all at my spotlight...Only nannas...


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## Malted (16/8/11)

Truman said:


> What sort of hops should I use pellets or the flowers? And what do you do with them? Do they just go into a voille bag and get dunked into the wort at the right time?



*Shove some in one ear (and up one nostril for good measure), stand on one leg and chant, 'Make good beer, make good beer'. 
*If this does not make good beer then chuck some in the boiling wort for 60 minutes for a bittering addition, 20 minutes for a flavour addition or some for 5/10 minutes/flameout/whirlpooling for aroma. You boil the wort for 60 minutes or more regardless of when the hop additions are. 20 minute additions means when 40 minutes of the boil has elapsed or 20 minutes of the boil remains. How much hops you add to a brew is a calculation you will need to do. There are various programs to calculate this for you, some free and some a negligible $ amount. 

How to use them is not a simple explanation, so I shall give one. It depends upon your equipment. 
Some say pellets will sink to the botom during whirlpooling so are not a problem going straight into the wort. They will even sink to the bottom of the fermenter if you chill it (helps with clearing etc) when brewed and prior to bottling or kegging. 
Some say flowers clog things up and other say flowers float and aren't a problem. 
Some folks bung them in a bag just to be sure.


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## manticle (16/8/11)

I find pellets drop and flowers clog taps. I use a bag for flowers (a big minimash bag with flowers in loose) and chuck pellets straight in.


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## Truman42 (16/8/11)

okay so I thought the hops were taken out at the end of the boil. So obviously pellets arent but what about the flowers, do you pull the bag out at the end of the boil?


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## manticle (16/8/11)

No real need to. Usually the boiler gets drained through a tap or siphoned out.


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## Nick JD (16/8/11)

If you are being a lazy bastard like me and simply leaving the pot (kettle) overnight to cool down so you can pour it into your fermenter the next morning when it's reached 20C, then leaving the hops in is a bad thing to do.

Your hops that were in the boil for 60 minutes won't make it much more bitter, but if you added 30g of a 15%AA hop with 5 minutes left in the boil ... and then you leave these in a very, slowly, cooling, pot - it's going to be MUCH MUCH bitterer than you had planned. You've lost touch with your recipe; external factors are controling the taste of your beer. You don't want to lose control of your recipe.

Removing your hops from the pot makes sense if you plan to let it cool in the pot. If you are transfering into another vessel to no-chill, or rapidly cooling it using a heat exchanger of some sort ... then bunging your hops in comando is the way to go.


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## manticle (16/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> If you are being a lazy bastard like me and simply leaving the pot (kettle) overnight to cool down so you can pour it into your fermenter the next morning when it's reached 20C, then leaving the hops in is a bad thing to do.
> 
> Your hops that were in the boil for 60 minutes won't make it much more bitter, but if you added 30g of a 15%AA hop with 5 minutes left in the boil ... and then you leave these in a very, slowly, cooling, pot - it's going to be MUCH MUCH bitterer than you had planned. You've lost touch with your recipe; external factors are controling the taste of your beer. You don't want to lose control of your recipe.
> 
> Removing your hops from the pot makes sense if you plan to let it cool in the pot. If you are transfering into another vessel to no-chill, or rapidly cooling it using a heat exchanger of some sort ... then bunging your hops in comando is the way to go.



Dunno. I don't slow chill in the kettle but I do no chill. I'm waiting for a side by side chill vs no chill hopbursted apa to carbonate so I can tell the exact difference with a tried and true recipe. 

I have never, ever tried to remove any hop addition from my kettle. I was under the impression that in the right temperature, the acids would become separate from the hop debris so bittering would continue with or without the green gunk. I do not know, or pretend to know for sure though. Obviously when I no chill, apart from any cube additions, the gunk is left behind so that differs from slow chilling.

Have you tried both and found a difference with the same recipe?


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## Nick JD (16/8/11)

manticle said:


> I was under the impression that in the right temperature, the acids would become separate from the hop debris so bittering would continue with or without the green gunk.



If that were true, my 15-minute-only slow chilled Citra APAs would be IPAs. I reckon when you remove the hops, you remove the potential bittering.


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## manticle (16/8/11)

As I said - not sure.

Interested though. Try a small batch side by side one day with hops removed and hops left in.


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## Nick JD (16/8/11)

manticle said:


> As I said - not sure.
> 
> Interested though. Try a small batch side by side one day with hops removed and hops left in.



Easy way to test it would be to dip your 60 minute addition in for 5 minutes and see if it's bitter. Someone else can drink the sweet beer though.


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## manticle (16/8/11)

I'm not quite following what you're suggesting.

Even dry hopping gives some bitterness to my palate (and loads of flavour despite everyone insisting it's only for aroma). It's how much hops (physical matter) will contribute to the overall IBU once the acids have been isomerised that's interesting (real world experiences rather than theoretical).

People have also suggested hop bags will restrain isomerisation/utilisation if too tightly packed.

Maybe I'll try it. 1 tight packed hop bag, 1 loose packed, 1 loose pellets, all slow chilled, same wort, same fermentation.

Slow chilling freaks me out a bit though.


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## chunckious (23/8/11)

Some advice if I could please lads.
Doing stove top BIAB small batches to cut my teeth on. After pitching the yeast I noticed that I had the bung and not the tap in the FV. So I didn't take a gravity read. Fermentation was active. Just left for 2 weeks to bottle. Notable cidery smell was present upon bottling. Thinking along the lines of the wort had been left to long after fermenting and oxidation has occurred. Bottled anyway to see what will happen.
Did my second batch on the weekend and did the same ******* thing with not putting the tap on FV. Fermentation is active after 2 days.
Now I'm thinking that fermentation is finishing quicker than expected due to the small size of the batch. I don't know whether to tip the FV back and take out the bung & put in the tap so I can monitor when fermentation has finished. Trying to avoid the mistake of my first batch.


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## argon (23/8/11)

Cidery aromas and flavones are typically attributed to yeast pitching rates and fermentation health. Leaving the fermentation go for 2 weeks won't produce these attributes in your finished beer. Eg my regime consists of 14 days primary then at least 7 days cold conditioning before packaging.

What yeast did you use? How much did you pitch? What temp did you ferment at? How was the yeast handled before pitching... Sprinkling dry yeast/rehydrated dry yeast/starter? In my experience these are the factors to look at when trying to eliminate off flavours such as cider


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## manticle (23/8/11)

Leaving your brew for a bit of extra time after fermentation has finished should improve the brew.

Does the resulting beer taste cidery? Do you mean green apple flavour or something else? Thin and watery?

Could be a number of things. How are you aerating? What's the yeast and how fresh is it? What recipes are you making and what is the expected gravity?


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## chunckious (23/8/11)

Recipe is 10min IPA stovetop no-chill.
The only prob I could see with brew day was that I miss read Brew-mate was short 3.5L of initial start volume. Smelt amazing going into FV after chill. Sprinkled half packet of US-05 (room temp) after aeration of pour-in from stove pot.. Fermented @ 19-20 over 2 weeks. Didn't see any signs of infection in FV. Taste was sour.


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## argon (23/8/11)

What was your volume into the fermented and what was you starting gravity?

Without really knowing the above I'd say you've underpitched. Half a packet of dry yeast sprinkled on the surface of the wort won't really be enough unless your volume is very low. Why only half the yeast packet? What did you do with the other half?

It's a widely held principle that you'll lose half your yeast viability when pitching dry. Rehydrating your yeast in water is preferrable prior to pitching giving you maximum viability. As a pack of us05 is 11g and you used half (assuming you got exactly half) you only pitched 5.5g. Then because you added it dry, you lost another 50%, effectively pitching 2.75g of viable yeast. To me that seems not enough. The yeast would have been stressed and thrown a few off flavours at you.


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## chunckious (23/8/11)

Only ended up with 6L in FV. I didn't have a test tube type gravity capsule to take OG. To shallow to float the boat in the pot. 
If you can use a packet of yeast with a 23L batch I newbie assumed that half a pack would have done this small amount. Remainder is in sealed container in fridge.
Thanks heaps for the responses also.


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## Tim F (23/8/11)

Do you have a reference for that argon? First time i've heard there's significant negatives to pitching dry yeast.
@ chunkilicious it's fine to use half a pack of yeast for half a batch. It's also fine to leave beer in the fermenter for a few weeks if your sanitation is up to scratch.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/8/11)

Maybe a sanitation issue.

I have left beer on the yeast cake for almost 4 weeks, and I've had beers that are 2 month's old by the time primary, secondary and cold conditioning is done (though not often, as I don't have the patience to wait that long).

I have always pitched dry yeast straight in, 1 pack for a 23L batch. It's designed with enough food to get going, and I don't get yeast stress induced flavours in anything I produce.

Which brings me back to either sanitation or temp control. Though I'm surprised that there are no mentions of sulphur/burning alcohol tastes, which would indicate temp issues.

That's all I can really think of.


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## marksfish (23/8/11)

Tim F said:


> Do you have a reference for that argon? First time i've heard there's significant negatives to pitching dry yeast.
> @ chunkilicious it's fine to use half a pack of yeast for half a batch. It's also fine to leave beer in the fermenter for a few weeks if your sanitation is up to scratch.



Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff in the book "yeast" and J.Z on many b.n podcasts.


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## Bribie G (23/8/11)

Tim F said:


> Do you have a reference for that argon? First time i've heard there's significant negatives to pitching dry yeast.
> @ chunkilicious it's fine to use half a pack of yeast for half a batch. It's also fine to leave beer in the fermenter for a few weeks if your sanitation is up to scratch.






marksfish said:


> Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff in the book "yeast" and J.Z on many b.n podcasts.



p 146


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## argon (23/8/11)

Tim F said:


> Do you have a reference for that argon? First time i've heard there's significant negatives to pitching dry yeast.



marksfish and BribieG have answered, however, perhaps i lost the sentiment in the semantics... but what i meant was pitching dry yeast dry into the fermentor... ie not rehydrating just sprinkling.


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## manticle (23/8/11)

Sour indicates a possible infection. How confident are you in your palate? Are you used to 10 minute IPAs? What was the hop/s?

Is there grassiness, overbitterness or something else going on?

Leaving beer in the fermenter for a bit extra is a good thing (although using a hydrometer is also a good thing). It won't cause oxidation unless you shake it around a lot.
I don't believe sourness is an indication of oxidation either and pitching half a pack of 05 into 10L of wort should be fine. I don't rehydrate my dry yeast (only use 05) and use 1 pack with no resulting yeast stress flavours, Jamil and C White notwithstanding. I reckon the 50% thing is a worst case scenario, not a standard but that's only from my experience of using as is, not a measured, unbiased perspective..


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## Tim F (23/8/11)

Cheers, like goomba I've found 1 pack of us05 pitched directly into 20 odd L gives a healthy ferment with no obvious problems. I'd usually only rehydrate for a higher gravity wort. But might change that.


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## felten (23/8/11)

Chunkious said:


> Recipe is 10min IPA stovetop no-chill.
> The only prob I could see with brew day was that I miss read Brew-mate was short 3.5L of initial start volume. Smelt amazing going into FV after chill. Sprinkled half packet of US-05 (room temp) after aeration of pour-in from stove pot.. Fermented @ 19-20 over 2 weeks. Didn't see any signs of infection in FV. Taste was sour.


Like Manticle was saying, acetaldehyde (green apples/cidery) can be a sign of infection as well, acetobacter will convert ethanol into acetaldehyde on the way to acetic acid. You should note some vinegar smells if that was the case though.


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## chunckious (24/8/11)

Ok.
Upon reviewing my processes and reading up, I relealize that I didn't put water in the air lock. Having never done any sort of K&K, I never knew that this was on the list to do :huh: . So my airlock was a airflow.
I'm hoping that this the silver bullet to my funky first brew.....


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## bignath (24/8/11)

Chunkious said:


> Ok.
> Upon reviewing my processes and reading up, I relealize that I didn't put water in the air lock. Having never done any sort of K&K, I never knew that this was on the list to do :huh: . So my airlock was a airflow.
> I'm hoping that this the silver bullet to my funky first brew.....



Yep, that'll do it....

Oh well, get cracking on another brew fella, and put water in that airlock.

Or use gladwrap instead. Do a search on this. It's great!


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## chunckious (24/8/11)

Big Nath said:


> Yep, that'll do it....
> 
> Oh well, get cracking on another brew fella, and put water in that airlock.
> 
> Or use gladwrap instead. Do a search on this. It's great!



Thanks Nath,
Luckily my second brew on Sunday got put it into a new Bunnings FV that has to have the glad wrap on top.
Otherwise it would have been Groundhog Day.


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## chunckious (24/8/11)

Would PVC hose impart a taste if just racking from the primary to the secondary bring room temp wort?


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## Truman42 (24/8/11)

I have a few more questions about hopping.

1. So if I throw hop pellets in loose do they stay as pellets? Im of the thought they dissolve and therefore cannot be removed. Or do they sink to the bottom so can be removed once you transfer to your fermenter after doing BIAB.

2. My recipe calls for this

15 g	Galaxy (Flowers, 14.9 AA%, 10 mins)	
25 g	Galaxy (Flowers, 14.9 AA%, 5 mins)

In the notes he says..This was a no-chill beer, hence only late hopping and slightly higher IBU's than listed. Firstly if I am going to use Galaxy flowers at 13.4%AA as that seems all I can get, how would I change my hop times if at all?
And if I was going to use the chill method would I also increase my hop times?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/8/11)

Pellets settle into the yeast cake, and if you carefully remove the fermented beer from the yeast cake into another fermenter using food grade tubing (commonly called the "bottling bucket"), you won't stir it up, and you won't end up with half an inch of yeast in each bottle either.

You then bottle as per normal from the bottling bucket.

Goomba


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## bignath (24/8/11)

Chunkious said:


> Would PVC hose impart a taste if just racking from the primary to the secondary bring room temp wort?



It's probably not considered "best practise" to use PVC tubing in the brewery, but i do use it for transferring from primary to secondary if i'm going to rack and condition my beers. Actually to be perfectly honest i use PVC tubing a lot in my brewery without any adverse side affects. Never tasted anything weird in my beers that was contributed by my hose selection.

One day i'll replace them with silicone type hosing which is what most people WOULD consider to be best practise...

so many things to upgrade though....don't know where to start sometimes..


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## bignath (24/8/11)

Truman said:


> 2. My recipe calls for this
> 
> 15 g	Galaxy (Flowers, 14.9 AA%, 10 mins)
> 25 g	Galaxy (Flowers, 14.9 AA%, 5 mins)
> ...



You poor bugger - ONLY able to get nice, juicy, fresh, Galaxy flowers...  

If no chilling, I wouldn't adjust your times, i'd adjust the quantities instead. By how much? Don't know off the top of my head, and i'm not near my brewing computer to work it out.....

And yes, If using the chill method for your recipe you'll need to increase the times and/or quantities aswell.


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## Truman42 (24/8/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Pellets settle into the yeast cake, and if you carefully remove the fermented beer from the yeast cake into another fermenter using food grade tubing (commonly called the "bottling bucket"), you won't stir it up, and you won't end up with half an inch of yeast in each bottle either.
> 
> You then bottle as per normal from the bottling bucket.
> 
> Goomba


No I meant if I threw pellets into the pot while boiling then chilled and tipped the wort into my fermenter would the pellets stay in the bottom of the pot in the trub or would they mix in with the wort and therefore continue to work in the fermenter, thus increasing my bittering (this is dry hopping isnt it?)


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## bignath (24/8/11)

Truman said:


> No I meant if I threw pellets into the pot while boiling then chilled and tipped the wort into my fermenter would the pellets stay in the bottom of the pot in the trub or would they mix in with the wort and therefore continue to work in the fermenter, thus increasing my bittering (this is dry hopping isnt it?)



No. Dry hopping is adding hops to your already fermentING beer. Literally throwing them in either loose, or in something to contain them like a hop sock.

Usually done after day 5 or so for an ale (after most of the fermentation has been done, otherwise all of the escaping CO2 will take the aroma of the dry hops with it = pointless)

Most brewers prefer their beer to be as clean and clear when transferring to the fermenter, therefore, most would try and keep all the trub (mix of break proteins/material AND hop matter) in the kettle.


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## Nick JD (24/8/11)

I find dry hopping in the keg is the best way to dry hop if you have kegs. 

Drinking an APA with 20g of Citra in the keg ATM. 

WHOOSH!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/8/11)

Nick JD said:


> I find dry hopping in the keg is the best way to dry hop if you have kegs.
> 
> Drinking an APA with 20g of Citra in the keg ATM.
> 
> WHOOSH!



I'm assuming a hop ball is in the keg, to save you getting a mouthful of pellets the texture of green banana?

I've an APA just about to finish carbing and a fridge full of citra, cascade, galaxy, willamette (alright, not in style), stella and a few others and a dry keg hop of that - let's say, I like the sound of WHOOOSH!

Goomba


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## Silo Ted (24/8/11)

As a general comment to new brewers..... Not meaning to sound rude, but you would do yourself a great justice if you actually bothered to get a basic grasp of brewing concepts. While Nick's guide is by all accounts pretty good (one day I'll read them !), you will empower yourself greatly by knowing a little bit of what's going on, instead of just 'painting by numbers' and asking a hundred questions that are already there on the web, a million times over. 

Good luck, and please do some reading. It's a great hobby if you want it to be more than packet soup.


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## Truman42 (24/8/11)

@silo ted. I have and do read as much as I can online about home brewing including some great websites suggested by members on here. However there is so much information to digest that sometimes I ask the question from experts such as yourself so I can get a better understanding and grasp the concepts of home brewing. Plus it helps to remember by asking and reading the answers as I get to take it all in as explained in laymans terms. 
So thank you to everyone who has helped annoying newbs like myself and hopefully I can return the favor to a newbie one day.


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## rich_lamb (24/8/11)

No problem - keep asking!

When you finish your boil your hops will settle to the bottom of the kettle _after a while_ and you may be able to get your wort off this trub (which includes hop residue) and into your fermenter pretty clean. Different brewers use all sorts of ways of doing this - siphoning after using a whirlpool to get the hops in the centre, filtering through a hopback, clever positioning of the pickup tube on the outlet of the kettle. I even used a bed of gravel in my kettle for a while (and it worked well).
Some of the problems here are to do with how long your wort stays on the hop residue while hot. If you have to wait a long time, you can loose the benefit of any very late hop additions. Taking all that hop residue into a no-chill cube, or otherwise letting the wort cool down slowly with it there WILL increase your bittering. I've tested this pretty extensively. That's why most people who no-chill get their wort off the trub somehow, though they don't often mention it unless you ask them. It's also why a lot (most?) brewers employ some sort of chilling to cool wort quickly - although there are a few other reasons too.
If you're worried about your control of hop bittering, have a look at chilling.
If you're worried about the hop residue being in the fermenter, dont - it has no effect after the wort is cool and will just settle into the sludge at the bottom.
If you're worried generally, well - you know the drill...


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## Truman42 (25/8/11)

Thanks heaps bitter & twisted for that great explanation. So basically if I have a recipe that says add hops at 10 mins and 5 mins and I do no chill, as the wort is cooling my hops are still working. So my choices are chill the wort or use a hop sock and take the hops out.
Im not a big fan at all of bitter beer so will probably be chilling just to be sure.


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## bignath (25/8/11)

Truman said:


> Im not a big fan at all of bitter beer so will probably be chilling just to be sure.



Mornin' Truman,

Try to think of it from the other way around. Don't think of chilling as a way of lessening bitterness. In the same way don't think of no chilling as adding bitterness. As mash brewers, one of the things we strive for (among many) is consistency from one batch to the next of any particular recipe...Think of whatever method of chilling you use as "your method" and adjust your hop quantities or usage times to suit.

Hope this makes sense.

Even though no chilling a beer increases the potential for added bitterness, people dont "no chill" to deliberately increase bitterness, if you know what i mean.

I have been a chiller, and am currently no chilling, and i've had to slightly alter my previous recipes and save them as "beer beer beer beer NO CHILL VERSION" or something like that. Once your recipe is in perspective of your chilling method, your beer will be so close to the original chilled version you'd be hard pressed to notice any difference.
Brewers that no chill, often do so for other reasons that have nothing to do with hops. For me, it's the convenience and water saving from using a chiller. I'm not setup to recirculate and reuse my chilling water so it's much easier for me to "no chill". It suits my brewing lifestyle and time constraints. It means i can brew like a bastard when i have the odd weekend off, fill my cubes with wort, and then ferment them when a fermenter becomes available. For me, no chill is all about convenience, and i've adjusted my recipes to allow this method to get the same beer as when i was chilling.

There are many ways the no chillers get around "locking" in hop flavour and aroma that is the signature of the chilling method. It can be done, and it can be done easily.
There are numerous threads about how to adjust hops to compensate for whatever method you settle on, and this post from me alone will probably open the obligatory can 'o' worms, but do a search, read heaps, and as always, continue to ask questions.

Happy brewin'

Nath


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## Truman42 (25/8/11)

Thanks heaps Nathan.


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## Silo Ted (25/8/11)

Truman said:


> @silo ted. I have and do read as much as I can online about home brewing including some great websites suggested by members on here. However there is so much information to digest that sometimes I ask the question from experts such as yourself so I can get a better understanding and grasp the concepts of home brewing. Plus it helps to remember by asking and reading the answers as I get to take it all in as explained in laymans terms.
> So thank you to everyone who has helped annoying newbs like myself and hopefully I can return the favor to a newbie one day.



It would serve you well to buy a copy of John Palmer's "How to Brew". While I don't generally endorse this book as much as others, it's great for an introduction to the science behind the process. Don't be daunted by my use of the word 'science', it's not too heavy, and he explains what's going on with your brew day even before touching on the actual making of beer. 

For example: 


Chapter 3 discusses Malt Extract, Beer Kits & Brewing Sugars
Chapter 5 walks the reader through the different stages of adding hops for bitterness, flavour & aroma, and gives you a rundown on the characteristics of many popular varieties. It then goes on to discuss utilisation of AA's, and there's some cool tables and also nomographs to play with
Chapter 6 spends 17 pages discussing yeast types, strains, pitching rates and more. 
Chapter 8 is eight pages dedicated to fermentation

As you progress, there are chapters dedicated to explaining malted grain and it's function, steeping grains for enhancing kit beers etc. 

And this is all before we even get you into doing all-grain batches ! Which he covers also, so its a good investment for now and for the future. 

For $20 through The Book Depository it's a small investment that you, as a new brewer, will more than justify the cost when you'll be saving so much money by making your own quality beer.


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## felten (25/8/11)

Or if you're a cheap bastard like myself, read the online version


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## Silo Ted (25/8/11)

felten said:


> Or if you're a cheap bastard like myself, read the online version



^^ cheap bastard :lol: 

The OP and others like him would benefit greatly from buying the book. 

John Palmer, I'm looking for my next endorsement royalty cheque


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## Truman42 (26/8/11)

Thanks Ted for that book suggestion. (And Felten for the online version) I will buy the hard copy though so Ive got it there as a reference.


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