# Echuca water results , feedback please



## Brendandrage (24/5/13)

Hi all,
I called our local water supplier and requested the water quality results and have attached them below. I would like some feedback on these from you guys as everything i have read so far would suggest there is plenty of room for adjustment. But i could be very wrong 
Regards
Brendan


Echuca Water Quality Enquiry  

View attachment Water Report.xlsx


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## manticle (24/5/13)

Calcium is low, chloride and sulphate are low.

These are the things I would be looking at adding, appropriately for the beer you want to brew. Also add some quality nutrient for zinc.

Get calcium levels to 50 ppm (in the mash), get pH to 5.4* using acid if necessary, keep sulphates out of dark beers and get chloride: sulphate ratio to where you want for the beer you want.

Very similar to most melbourne water, pretty soft, low minerals, no chloramines**, easy to manipulate

* measured at room temp - a bit lower if measured at mash temp - ~5.2ish

**Check this with the water company - Melbourne water isn't not sure about rural Vic. If it is chloraminated, you might want to look at removing those.


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## anthonyUK (24/5/13)

manticle said:


> *Check this with the water company - Melbourne water isn't not sure about rural Vic. If it is chloraminated, you might want to look at removing those.


It is always worth throwing in 1/2 a campden tab on the off chance there is any chlorine/chlolamines or bleach residue from cleaning if you use it.


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## manticle (24/5/13)

I hate sulphites and strike temp is enough to drive off the low levels of chlorine we get in our water here.

I avoid bleach in sanitation - have used it in conjunction with other things only to get rid of persistent infections but then it's rinsed with boiling water followed by sodium met solution.

I'd rather not add stuff to my beer for off chances - I'd rather add them for good reason.


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## anthonyUK (24/5/13)

Yeah sorry. I have no idea what the water is like there so was only considering UK water :wacko:


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## manticle (24/5/13)

Melbourne is blessed water wise. Looks like echuca isn't far off either.


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## mmmyummybeer (24/5/13)

manticle said:


> Calcium is low, chloride and sulphate are low.
> 
> These are the things I would be looking at adding, appropriately for the beer you want to brew. Also add some quality nutrient for zinc.
> 
> ...


I carbon filter Echuca water first which helps with the chlorine then pretty much the same as Manticle said above. 

Generally adding CaCl along with a small amount of accidulated malt to lighter beers. Sometimes CaCO2 to dark beers and Calcium Sulphate for hoppy beers, I also like to lower the pH of my sparge water. 


Back to your question is there room for adjustment yes but as to how to adjust is generally dependent on style and what you want to achieve by making the adjustment. If you are all grain brewing you want to add minerals to assist in maintaining correct mash pH as well as enhancing some flavours. If your brewing from extract then there is no need to add mineral to your water but would still be worthwhile filtering if you can. 
Also I find beersmith great for water profiling if you want to play around with the numbers.


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## mabrungard (24/5/13)

Fine water to start with. Yes, there is plenty of room to add minerals to create water styles that fit your brewing. The calcium level should be increased for most brews to help promote yeast health, flocculation, and reduce beerstone formation in your equipment. I find that a minimum of 40 ppm calcium is needed to keep beerstone at bay and most state that 50 ppm is useful for all-around good brewing performance. 

The only other ion level that you should look after is bicarbonate (creates alkalinity). In general, little bicarbonate is desirable in brewing water. However when brewing more acidic grists such as those with high percentages or roast or crystal malts, you may find that adding bicarbonate may be necessary to avoid depressing the mash pH too far. Lime or baking soda are preferable minerals for adding bicarbonate. Chalk has been proven to be relatively insoluble in brewing and it doesn't add the alkalinity that its supposed to. Lime and baking soda are quite soluble and are more reliable in adding alkalinity to your water. You will only need to add alkalinity to mashing water since sparging water should always have low alkalinity.

The levels chosen for other ions will largely depend on your taste preferences. You can get a sense of appropriate levels for those ions in your brewing on the Water Knowledge page of the Bru'n Water website.


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## Brendandrage (25/5/13)

Thanks guys I appreciate your advise, helps me on the right track.

Cheers


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## Brendandrage (11/6/13)

Hi all
i have been playing with the EZ water calculator and it would seem i need to add 6 grams of CaCl and 4 grams of epsom salts for my Kolsch recipe.

I have been reading through some recipes and it seems some brewers are adding different additives at different times, so when would you add the above? i thought that they would be added to the mash as per the EZ calculator....


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## manticle (11/6/13)

Add pH salts to the mash, extra flavour salts to the boil (or sparge if you want - I find boil easier).

I question the need for epsom salts - malt should provide adequate levels of magnesium and calcium is more effective at dropping pH, assisting enzymatic activity etc. You will find you can probably reduce your overall salt additions by replacing the magnesium sulphate with calcium sulphate.


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## mmmyummybeer (12/6/13)

Also I believe epsom salts can have a laxative effect if overdone.


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## chefeffect (14/6/13)

This would have been handy a few years ago (Echuca specs) now I am 10 mins south of Echuca with rain water not sure what to really do there. I have been using distilled water in Beersmith2 as my base water, rightly or wrongly. Are there water test kits, or is this something a lab needs to analyse.

Also mabrungard mentioned chalk being relatively insoluble in brewing, so what do you use instead if true? And do you use a software program to adjust the additions, I use Beersmith2 but it is restricted as far as I can tell to the additions the program calculates. What do you guys use to calculate the additions?


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## manticle (14/6/13)

The reasons people add chalk are twofold - one is to raise pH which is rarely needed except if you are brewing very dark beers. The other is because there is some anecdotal evidence that it smooths any harshness from roast malts. Most beers do not require and indeed are better without significant carbonate content.

I find cold steeping roast malts and adding the grains and liquor to the last ten minutes of the mash bypasses the need to drop pH (already set in the mash with salts and other grains) and gives a nice smooth tasting result.

If you read marabrungard's water knowledge page, you will see he has other suggestions for additives to raise pH in place of chalk.

Check 4.3.1 - 4.3.3 on this page: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge


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## chefeffect (14/6/13)

Thanks, just a little bit of mild reading, will sink my teeth in when I finish work.. Cheers.


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## mabrungard (16/6/13)

If your water has very low sodium, using baking soda can be a good way to add alkalinity for mashing water. You will want to limit the baking soda addition to only increase the sodium to 40 ppm or less. That will keep the sodium from adversely affecting beer flavor. Another option for adding alkalinity to mashing water is lime. It may be a little harder to find and its also very strong and requires an accurate measurement and dosing. 

Properly adjusting the mash pH is helpful in keeping the overall wort pH in the right range too. As mentioned above, you can separately steep roast grains or add them late in the mash. But their effect on the overall wort pH may be to make the wort more acidic than desirable. The beer may end up tart and the hop utilization and perception will be reduced.


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## manticle (16/6/13)

Once the mash is buffered, how much will a late addition of roast change the pre-boil wort pH?

I've never noticed any tartness to my porters or stouts. I've only ever measured mash pH, not wort pH.


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## mabrungard (16/6/13)

manticle said:


> Once the mash is buffered, how much will a late addition of roast change the pre-boil wort pH?
> 
> I've never noticed any tartness to my porters or stouts. I've only ever measured mash pH, not wort pH.


The pH of wort can easily drop by several tenths with a roast addition. Guinness is made with very low alkalinity water. They employ an all pale base malt mash and they create a separate all-roast steeped wort (aka: Guinness Flavor Extract) that is combined after mashing. Guinness is known for their tartness and some have thought that they sour the roast malt wort. But since they use very low alkalinity water for their brewing, the steeped roast malt wort would naturally have a very low pH. I expect that it could easily be in the 4 to 4.5 range. The resulting affect on the overall wort pH will vary for a brewer depending on the alkalinity in their water and the proportion of the acidic malts used in the grist. I wouldn't be surprised that the overall wort pH for Guinness Dry Stout would be in the 5.0 to 5.2 range.


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## manticle (16/6/13)

Recently got a pH meter. next stout I brew I might check for academic interest. As mentioned I don't detect any tartness in my dark beers with separate steep but I enjoy knowing these things regardless.


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## Brendandrage (17/6/13)

Well for what its worth i added 4grams of epsom salts and 6 grames of CaCl and i hit my OG spot on!

Will report back on taste varitation or other but will leave out any details on laxative effects :blink:

Ill drop it into the fermenter tonight

Thanks for the feedback i appreciate it.

Brendan


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## billygoat (17/6/13)

I routinely use up to 5 g of Epsom salts, in conjunction with Gypsum and CaCl2 in my brewing water. The salts are added directly to the HLT so end up in the mash via the strike water and in the boil via the sparge water. Never had any abnormal flavours etc that I can detect from using Epsom Salts. Also, I am using tank water with very little trace elements as shown by a water analysis.


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## manticle (17/6/13)

Unlikely 4-5 g in a 20 L batch will give you the runs or taste dreadful - it's more that there is no real need to add any when calcium does a better job of the same things and malt fulfils the requirements.


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