# Fcuck you Tasmania



## Bribie G (22/8/14)

Well there's one place that will never again get my tourist dollar until this pack are thrown out. Also last drop of Boags, Cascade, King Island cheese etc that will pass my lips and I'll be checking all labels.


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## sponge (22/8/14)

That's pretty disappointing to read.

3 steps back..


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## Weizguy (22/8/14)

Just like the Queensland government are doing to the reef, in the name of coal export $$$.

Very disappointing.

Will I have to boycott Tassie hops?


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## DU99 (22/8/14)

start a petition with change.org.


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## glenos (22/8/14)

Bribie G said:


> Well there's one place that will never again get my tourist dollar until this pack are thrown out. Also last drop of Boags, Cascade, King Island cheese etc that will pass my lips and I'll be checking all labels.


Take your pick, pay for Tasmania to exist as the country's national park and fully fund the states needs or let us have some industry, I don't care which but you must choose one.

The TFA was a deal done to keep the previous government in power. The TFA allegedly ended dispute between ENGO and industry by closing the industry, it hasn't stopped the ENGO's they are still attacking what remains of the industry. I doubt the numbers presented the area equates to 1/6th of the land area of the state.

What do the ex-forestry workers do? There aren't jobs for them, we cannot have a tourism industry as the sole source of wealth generation, for one would you like your concierge to be anth generation ex-logger, they are pretty rough looking, nice people but often what you are looking for in a concierge. Plus we would end up like all tourist hot spots around the world, poor.

Have you visited the areas they are talking about? They are not prisitine virgin forest as the ENGOs would have you believe.


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## Donske (22/8/14)

glenos said:


> Have you visited the areas they are talking about? They are not prisitine virgin forest as the ENGOs would have you believe.


That's the part that confused me, I thought I'd read a report stating that much of the land to be opened to the forestry industry had previously been at least partially logged and therefore had no right to protection in the first place.

If it is indeed virgin native old growth rain forest then it should remain so, if it has previously been logged and has introduced vegetation then I'm not sure what the hippies are complaining about.


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## AndrewQLD (22/8/14)

glenos said:


> Take your pick, pay for Tasmania to exist as the country's national park and fully fund the states needs or let us have some industry, I don't care which but you must choose one.
> 
> The TFA was a deal done to keep the previous government in power. The TFA allegedly ended dispute between ENGO and industry by closing the industry, it hasn't stopped the ENGO's they are still attacking what remains of the industry. I doubt the numbers presented the area equates to 1/6th of the land area of the state.
> 
> ...


It's a well written news article appearing in a newspaper, it must be true and factual and present both sides of the story....surely.
I'm with you glenos, there is more to this than the article mentions, but then some people will take anything they read in a newspaper as gospel.
I don't know what Cascade, Boags or king island cheese have to do with it either.


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## sponge (22/8/14)

Donske said:


> If it is indeed virgin native old growth rain forest then it should remain so, if it has previously been logged and has introduced vegetation then I'm not sure what the hippies are complaining about.


I agree with this. I just assumed it was untouched forest from the article..


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## mje1980 (22/8/14)

Bribie G said:


> Well there's one place that will never again get my tourist dollar until this pack are thrown out. Also last drop of Boags, Cascade, King Island cheese etc that will pass my lips and I'll be checking all labels.


Stop supporting Tasmanian business will only hurt the people who work and live there, it won't affect the people who have made this decision.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (22/8/14)

Tis progress dont you know :huh:


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## JWB (22/8/14)

Donske said:


> That's the part that confused me, I thought I'd read a report stating that much of the land to be opened to the forestry industry had previously been at least partially logged and therefore had no right to protection in the first place.
> 
> If it is indeed virgin native old growth rain forest then it should remain so, if it has previously been logged and has introduced vegetation then I'm not sure what the hippies are complaining about.


You have hit the nail on the head. according to the Greenies an area logged 70 years ago is still virgin forest. Whats more the so called Tarkine wilderness area did not appear on any Map or official document until about 8 years ago when it was fist mentioned by Bob Brown at a hippie rally in Hobart. Since then the Tarkine has grown to about half the size of the Tasmania West Coast and is still expanding. Try finding any mention of the Tarkine in any official document prior to 1999.


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## davedoran (22/8/14)

Is this the same area that received world heritage listed only a couple of years ago?


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## JWB (22/8/14)

dave doran said:


> Is this the same area that received world heritage listed only a couple of years ago?




Yep The very same


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## Dave70 (22/8/14)

As long as they don't turn the Sydney Hotel into an ironic hipster bar, I couldn't give a **** what they do.


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## Donske (22/8/14)

JWB said:


> You have hit the nail on the head. according to the Greenies an area logged 70 years ago is still virgin forest. Whats more the so called Tarkine wilderness area did not appear on any Map or official document until about 8 years ago when it was fist mentioned by Bob Brown at a hippie rally in Hobart. Since then the Tarkine has grown to about half the size of the Tasmania West Coast and is still expanding. Try finding any mention of the Tarkine in any official document prior to 1999.



Thanks for confirming, trying to find the report again through google resulted in about 10 billion anti logging sites.

Damn vocal minority.


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## i-a-n (22/8/14)

At least it won't hurt more koalas


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## Feldon (22/8/14)

...


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## JWB (22/8/14)

No koalas down here anymore Mini mash! The foxes got the all a couple of years ago


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## Yob (22/8/14)

it's not like they have a history of logging old growth forests or nuffin innit...


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## Dave70 (22/8/14)

Yob said:


> it's not like they have a history of logging old growth forests or nuffin innit...


We've driven down through some of the west coast dirt roads, it was a hire care after all, where the road literally marks the border between plantation and old growth forests. 
Have to admit, those neatly arranged pine forests lent a decidedly 'euro' feel to the journey. Much more attractive than those messy looking 400 year old Tasmanian oaks.
Chop em into floorboards I say.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (22/8/14)

Its funny they closed 95% of the mills here in WA and all those mill folk survived.
Nev


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## Not For Horses (22/8/14)

Well where would you rather your timber come from then?
We have a $2b deficit for timber in this country.
Perhaps you could take your tourist dollar to the forests of New Zealand. You eat their apples, might as well use their timber too yeah?
There's always Canada. Canada's nice. It's also where most of our structural timber comes from. Maybe pick up some wild caught salmon although that's getting a bit scarce now.
Or perhaps you could go to Borneo and see the vast Intsia Bijuga forests. No wait, that's all merbau decking and dead orangutans now.
But you'd probably like to see some tourist brochures first yeah? Now would you like those printed on paper made in Indonesian paper mills? I hear they have excellent sustainable environment policies.


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## AndrewQLD (22/8/14)

^^ Clearly as posted above there are two sides to this story, it's a shame journos aren't as impartial as they should be.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (22/8/14)

Not For Horses said:


> Well where would you rather your timber come from then?
> We have a $2b deficit for timber in this country.
> Perhaps you could take your tourist dollar to the forests of New Zealand. You eat their apples, might as well use their timber too yeah?
> There's always Canada. Canada's nice. It's also where most of our structural timber comes from. Maybe pick up some wild caught salmon although that's getting a bit scarce now.
> ...


I would prefer Borneo they got heaps of Merbau and I need to extend my deck.
Aussie timber is too expensive.


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## taztiger (22/8/14)

As someone who has to deal with these lines that have been drawn for the TFA boundaries on a daily basis i can say that some of the areas are a joke. Since when is actual Eucaylyptus plantation "High Conservation Forest" ? There is more than one instance of this. The lines don't follow roads or rivers for sensible boundaries, someone just put a line on a map appease certain vocal groups during the process.
We already had 48% of the state locked up in reserve before the TFA , how much is enough? I


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## pk.sax (22/8/14)

Still a sad state of things they have to log ancient forests to make a small buck. As for where things appear on official documents, official Australia also dehumanised aborigines and did not blink while the tassie tiger got hunted out of extinction. That's a bullshit excuse to question the validity of what forests need protecting. We're basically headed back that way aren't we. Slowly but surely.

You have an entire mainland where you don't encounter anyone for days, a lot of which could be planted and harvested. Why the heck do you want to go to an island and chop it to woodchips. If the yobbos there can't find work outside the logging industry help them move to the mainland. Maybe tassie is overpopulated with very one-dimensionally skilled people.


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## Blind Dog (22/8/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> ^^ Clearly as posted above there are two sides to this story, it's a shame journos aren't as impartial as they should be.


A journalist's job is to sell the news. If you don’t have a headline, you have nothing. The truth may be out there, but is so obscured by vested interests, spin doctors, and politicians that even Mulder couldn’t find it


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## AndrewQLD (22/8/14)

Blind Dog said:


> A journalist's job is to sell the news. If you don’t have a headline, you have nothing. The truth may be out there, but is so obscured by vested interests, spin doctors, and politicians that even Mulder couldn’t find it


That seems to be the growing trend in journalism these days however journalists do have a set of ethics and standards they are supposed to follow.



> *Journalism ethics and standards* comprise principles of ethics and of good practice as applicable to the specific challenges faced by journalists. Historically and currently, this subset of media ethics is widely known to journalists as their professional "code of ethics" or the "canons of journalism".[1] The basic codes and canons commonly appear in statements drafted by both professional journalism associations and individual print, broadcast, and online news organizations.
> While various existing codes have some differences, most share common elements including the principles of—truthfulness, accuracy, objectivity, impartiality, fairness and public accountability—as these apply to the acquisition of newsworthy information and its subsequent dissemination to the public


however clearly the majority don't and tend to write opinion pieces rather than factual news stories.


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## Dave70 (22/8/14)

Not For Horses said:


> *Well where would you rather your timber come from then?*
> We have a $2b deficit for timber in this country.
> Perhaps you could take your tourist dollar to the forests of New Zealand. You eat their apples, might as well use their timber too yeah?
> There's always Canada. Canada's nice. It's also where most of our structural timber comes from. Maybe pick up some wild caught salmon although that's getting a bit scarce now.
> ...


Well lets begin with third world countries first. All they do is slash and burn anyway so they can plant GMO coffee, so it's win win for them. 
Plus they never seem to complain.


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## Blind Dog (22/8/14)

[SIZE=medium]Personally I’m a little more concerned by the rubbish going on in my own State.[/SIZE]
http://awpc.org.au/wombats-buried-alive-glenbog-state-forest-nsw/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/13/compulsory-voting-for-sydney-businesses-makes-a-mockery-of-democracy

[SIZE=medium]I know little about the issues in Tassie other than the guff spouted by the various vested interests. I want to hate the idea of logging forests that were protected, but suspect that there may be wider issues to consider. with all due respect to other posters, I doubt that a fcuck stance, on either side of the debate, will prove to be particularly useful[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]But in other news I sank a Leffe Bruin and a Leffe blonde at lunch. Yum.[/SIZE]


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## pk.sax (22/8/14)

**** you BD. I had a raging cold I'm nursing at home today. 1 drink these last 3 weeks. This is like a dry august for me!


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## Blind Dog (22/8/14)

Leffe bruin is a well known cure for a raging cold


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## pk.sax (22/8/14)

Reoprdet


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## Vini2ton (22/8/14)

Our wilderness areas are the envy of the world. They are the main drawcard for tourists coming here. Small term profit and political point scoring should count for nothing when we consider the future of this country. People do need work and that must be addressed. But this idea of dig it up and cut it down isn't the answer. We're smarter than that aren't we? I believe value added agriculture is the answer. With huge markets to the north of us, arable land and aussie know how, it's a no brainer.


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## glenos (22/8/14)

JWB said:


> ... 8 years ago when it was fist mentioned by Bob Brown at a hippie rally in Hobart. Since then the Tarkine has grown to about half the size of the Tasmania West Coast and is still expanding. Try finding any mention of the Tarkine in any official document prior to 1999.


Try and find it on a gazetted map now, it doesn't officially exist.



dave doran said:


> Is this the same area that received world heritage listed only a couple of years ago?


I think you will find it was late last year.


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## jlm (22/8/14)

Awesome bit of TUMBLR activism by the OP.

HELP SPREAD HIS MESSAGE SO HE DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANY REAL RESEARCH INTO THE ISSUE BUT STILL GETS HIS UNINFORMED VOICE HEARD (and never contributes anything to the discussion that follows, because it's easier that way).

With a bit of luck we might get an opinion from (the former, now Vic) TasChris, who actually has/had an insiders view on both working in forestry and living in an area that's seriously affected by decisions like these, and on the other side of the fence, Airgeard, who actually has facts to back up his talk.

And also Lagerbomb, who has a nice way of telling mainlanders to get fucked when they get into TAS's business.

I'll save my longwinded reply 'til I'm less loaded on rage-a-hol and vanilla porter 'til the morning.


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## glenos (22/8/14)

Vini2ton said:


> I believe value added agriculture is the answer. With huge markets to the north of us, arable land and aussie know how, it's a no brainer.


Ever tried farming in an "old growth" forest? that land has been (has to be) cleared first.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (22/8/14)

jlm said:


> Awesome bit of TUMBLR activism by the OP.
> 
> HELP SPREAD HIS MESSAGE SO HE DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANY REAL RESEARCH INTO THE ISSUE BUT STILL GETS HIS UNINFORMED VOICE HEARD (and never contributes anything to the discussion that follows, because it's easier that way).
> 
> ...


Oh you give IT up to easy :lol:
Its Friday let the good times roll .
Nev


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## Blind Dog (22/8/14)

jlm said:


> Awesome bit of TUMBLR activism by the OP.
> 
> HELP SPREAD HIS MESSAGE SO HE DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANY REAL RESEARCH INTO THE ISSUE BUT STILL GETS HIS UNINFORMED VOICE HEARD (and never contributes anything to the discussion that follows, because it's easier that way).
> 
> ...


Can't wait till the morning! Vanilla porter, sounds like a nice drop


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## HBHB (24/8/14)

I spent a lot of time over an 11 year period wandering around the Far North QLD rainforests in areas that had been selectively logged by generations of thinking timber cutters. I think the office bound greenies looking for a cause need to spend a bit more than their obligatory 2 days a year bushwalking those areas. Then they'd have some understanding that regrowth in those areas is phenomenal.

Each of the FNQ cyclones ( taking Cyclones Joy, Winifred, Yasi and Ita ) would have wiped out 100 times the trees that loggers managed to remove in the 150 odd years they cut timber in the region. 

Back to Tasmania. I don't see how boycotting other unrelated products is going to do anything other than put your $ into someone else's pocket. You best cut out tea and coffee, ceramic plates and stainless cutlery too, while you're at it, the barley that makes the malt......guess what? Then there's potting mix, oh and the glass for those amber bottles, the light bulb in the brewhouse? That came from sand mined in coastal heathlands. We'd all be pretty much screwed if we gave up everything that once affected a forest, because it all came from places where forests once stood.

Certainly, there's a need for preserving wilderness areas, but shifting supply of demand from one area to another just doesn't make sense unless you just want to shift the $ to other countries that just plain mow down acre upon acre of formerly unreachable and pristine Rainforest every day in the name of financial reward for corrupt political systems. (Indonesia, Malaysia, South American Countries).

Why shouldn't we be providing for our own domestic timber market from our own resources when it will be managed far better than the supply coming out of these other countries? It's a decision that needs to be made by the people directly affected in the state of Tasmania. The one's who know their local ecology and economy.

Same with the situation at Hay Point. I worked for the company that did all the original coal export facility design works & other than a few million displaced sandflies, the place has had SFA impact on the environment of the actual reef system. Greenpeace keep posting pics of magnificent natural reef gutters where here's piles of coral rubble lining shallow margins of 50m deep gutters, crying foul about dredging. They are from dredging - mother nature is pretty good at shifting billions of tons of shit around in the blink of an eye. It's a bloody farce. Those same reef gutters were there 1,000,000 years before Cook arrived. Same with the aerial photographic evidence they purport shows the unequalled damage of sediment run off from the construction site. Their pristine pic is taken during the dry season and shows crystal clear tidal waters. The Greenpeace comparative pic shows wet season run off. Dipshits. 1 normal wet season run off will shift more mud and debris out of the area than 5 dredges can move over a 10 year period.

Just sayin'


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## shaunous (24/8/14)

And don't get me started on the need for forest fuel reduction burning through winter.


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## tavas (24/8/14)




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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/8/14)

tavas said:


>


It would appear the only way you can protest is completely naked in an empty field laying prostrate ?
If it weren't for folk that have the energy to protest we would all be just compliant sheep of the human farm.
Just sayin.
Nev


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## tavas (24/8/14)

Or get educated about both sides of the story. Whatever works for you.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/8/14)

tavas said:


> Or get educated about both sides of the story. Whatever works for you.


Wait till they start dumping shit in your back yard, then see how quite you will be.
But what ever works for you.
Nev


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## tavas (24/8/14)

Or just keep importing from China and leave it in their backyard.


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## booargy (24/8/14)

**** the greenies without them we wouldn't have to listen to drivel.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/8/14)

I say **** em all but we do have to listen to all, its required to be civilised.
No wait lets just shoot the fuckers we dont agree with , or cut their heads off ?


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## booargy (24/8/14)

The drivel doesn't come from the greenies. Greenies were going to shut the industry down that I work in but the companies beat them to it. Around 2500 jobs gone this year. Lots of people think that we should kill the greenies and others they don't agree with. Perhaps they should buy a ticket and go see what it is like in a place like that, I wonder how long they would survive.


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## glenos (24/8/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> It would appear the only way you can protest is completely naked in an empty field laying prostrate ?
> If it weren't for folk that have the energy to protest we would all be just compliant sheep of the human farm.
> Just sayin.
> Nev


Happy to listen to them, as long as they are willing to listen to me.


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## Dave70 (24/8/14)

Online Brewing Supplies said:


> I say **** em all but we do have to listen to all, its required to be civilised.
> No wait lets just shoot the fuckers we dont agree with , or cut their heads off ?


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## shaunous (24/8/14)

There is a place for greenies, just like there is a place for us gun toting rednecks, it's the radicals on either side that need sorting out.

That's not to say that if they made it legal to buy big magazine full automatic rifles for 'vermin control' I wouldn't buy one


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## pk.sax (24/8/14)

I think it'd be very green of me to sort out every repulsive killer of natural life. But I hold my hand, nature's beings - even human - have a right to carve their living space. Within reason. Don't go destroying what you don't need to.


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## toncils (24/8/14)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3wzh3jQvP4


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## jlm (24/8/14)

Where to start.......

The OP's link to a pretty shitty article followed by a blunt and stupid statement achieves nothing except putting an opinion into people's minds that is as equally dangerous as the "Log the **** out of the WHA to give people jobs" mentality. As usual the truth is lying in the middle, but its the people who shout the loudest on either side who get heard.

Unless you've spent some time down here its probably a bit hard to see how things actually are as you'll generally only get one side of the story so gather round ol' uncle jlm while he tells you his story of moving to TAS from Brisbane...........

A bit of background to the state first though. There was an interesting article in the Weekend Aus Magazine (yeah, yeah.....Murdoch media......Blah blah blah) last weekend that spelled out quite a bit if you caught it or chased it down but it can be summed pretty simply. State needs some more edu-ma-cation. In general kids in TAS are not encouraged to go to Yr12. In fact, once you get past Yr10, unless you live around a major centre you're pretty much fucked, school stops at Yr10. So if you live in parts of the Huon for example, you put your kid on a bus for an hour plus trip if you want them to study at college (grade 11 and 12 for the rest of us). **** knows when I was 15 that wouldn't happen. But you never did it so why would you encourage your child when you turned out all right?

Which brings me to my story and perhaps TAS's greatest problem. Dumb ******* Tasmanians. This is not an opinion that will win me many friends but sadly its the truth. In one of the OP's earlier "I don't believe in Facebook but check out this shit! LMS if you agree!" threads he pointed out that a VERY large amount of adult Tasmanians are illiterate. I'd never come across such an animal in Brisbane but it only took me a few weeks of work down here to experience it, and I was ******* shocked. Then, the same blokes 16YO kid starts doing work experience for us and **** me.......This kid can't read or write either (but what chance did he stand with living with his illiterate father?). He wants an apprenticeship and it basically came to me to say "Dude........if you can't read there's no chance of you completing an apprenticeship".

So you've got a fair bit of a generationally (look its a real word, the computer didn't try to fix it) enhance/encouraged hand brake put on the most basic of the problems that the state has......education. I hear some real fucked up stories from my brother in law who's a teacher, but this post will be long enough without those anecdotes . 

But continuing my story and dumb ******* Tasmanians (lets abbreviate it to DFT's from here on in), in my experience the average DFT thinks that they are entitled to a very good wage while taking on no real responsibility or doing any real work to make whoever is paying their wage money. Now I don't want to make it sound like every tasmanian is a DFT (far from it....I've worked with some EXTREMELY professional companies that are stocked with and run by tasmanians, and know many, many hard working and professional natives) or that the attitude expressed above is limited to this state. I just come across it a lot more down here.

One of the blokes who (still, amazingly) works in the company I do took particular exception to me basically being made a foreman within a few months of starting work for this mob. The main issue was that I was getting paid more than he was, in his mind everyone in the company should be on the same rate (never mind I'm still offended that his $/hr is so close to mine). So despite the fact that I have to manage a million dollar contract to ensure that its profitable so we all get money into our bank accounts every week, and he has to fit off power points, its bullshit that I'm getting more than him. I never would have picked him as a communist but there we go.

Thats the attitude that I come across down here sooooo much. We're currently in the process of putting on a 1st year apprentice and the boss is saying we'd need to pay him around $15/hr for him to take the job. Really? ******* 1st year? Or he'd rather not work?

What does this have to do with the threads topic? Well, nothing really until you consider we've got the states with the biggest mining royalties boots on our throats screaming at us "******* walk on your own two feet you useless *****!". Which I'm really sure everyone in the state, DFT's included would like. 

A key part of walking on our own would be reducing the amount of DFT's in the population. Making people less dumb in my experience has made them better people more capable of paying their way in life. Which with my limited knowledge of the economics and such like is generally perceived as being a good thing. Getting more and more schools going all the way through to grade 12 would be a great start. Does cost money though. If only we could generate more income though leasing access to some (not all, leave the WHA and other significant areas alone) of the states natural resources to generate some coin. 

But, folks like the OP won't have that.........So hand over you're GST coin then. We're the COMMONWEALTH of AUS after all right? As I think Glenos pointed out, we can be your national park or your bottomless GST money pit. 

Which leads us to the next part of my story, before someone points out that tourism is the way forward for the state. Everyone can get a job in some sort of touristy job right? Well, I did that too. I got a job that many on this site would crave. Brewing beer in a brewery that turns over a serious amount of money at its cellar door and is part of the "tourist trail" in that area. 

The pay is shit. As most jobs in hospitality are, and that is where the majority of the tourism related jobs are. So why would a DFT earning maybe $5-7 dollars more per hour driving a logging truck or on the end of a chainsaw or any other job thats at the end of the forestry game? And lets not forget that tourism work is seasonal, its ******* cold down here in winter and unsurprisingly the trade drops right off. I've just had 6 weeks without work at the brewery because there's no need and stocks are high. 

Luckily I've got my other job, running another big electrical job which is actually inside the WHA. Its taken something like 20 years for this thing to go ahead, due to opposition from green groups (mainly the most vocal "against everything" type mobs). So a pretty cool building built in 1945 out on the middle of a lake which has been sitting empty since 1992 can't have a little bit of TLC and have some work put into it to give some DFT's in the area the chance at some regular employment, cleaning toilets or something. Apparently not. Its better to have the building sitting empty stinking of diesel (and it still does now even though the plaster's up which should be a worry for the developer) about 3K's from the Lyell HWY, the wall in the wilderness, the derwent bridge hotel (which does the most bitchin' parmi I've ever had), pasture that runs cattle and sheep. But a developers fer it so I'm again' it.

So if we add all of these things (and trust me, this is the abbreviated version) up hopefully it gives a little more insight and perhaps a little more food for thought than the "never been down there or really know anything about the place but why should that stop my keyboard warrior skillz" OP's myopic view of things. Give us the opportunity to walk on our own 2 feet or just give us the coin to basically fund the state on what's basically GST welfare.


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## Liam_snorkel (24/8/14)

Posting to subscribe. I have something to say but I'm currently in a social situation so can't commit. My old man was in the forestry industry for 30 years so I'm not an ignoramus. Glad jlm piped up.


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## shaunous (24/8/14)

I watched over and over as Indonesian companies absolutely raped forests in PNG and left them absolutely worthless empty, then disappeared overnight once the wood was sold leaving no money or workers to clean up and regenerate, just so we can buy cheap decking at Bunnings because it's to hard to cut down a tree in Australia without some idiot taking photo's, reporting you to the authorities and then writing an article in the local papers 'Letter To The editor'. 

It's not just the Forestry Industry, pretty much every industry in Aus is going to shit except the ones that involve digging gigantic holes in the earth and extracting minerals. 

Buy local and support our own industries. Not pigs from china, sugar from Brazil, wood from small South Pacific islands, etc etc.

But hey, I can't even get my own mother to buy local and stop saving 50c by shopping at Aldi, Woolworths and Coles, so it'd be impossible to tell a bunch of home brewers I barely know to do it.


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## bradsbrew (24/8/14)

Well said jlm, however I would like to think that the govt needs to look at their education model. If there is a high level of illiteracy how does going to year 12 fix that? That should be well and truly identified a lot earlier. I support kids going to year 12 if they are going to benefit from it and maybe also go to university, but I would also like to see kids leaving school after completing their junior certificate (is that even a thing anymore?) grade 10, if they are getting into an apprenticeship. Why make them do an extra 2 years if they are only going to spend their time disrupting the people that want to be there. In qld we have the doorways to construction which sort of covers that cohort (for construction) but still has them attending school so they get the year 12 certificate, and the government is happy with the figures, problem is they have spent 1 day a week during school term weeks on the site and finish grade 12 as a 2nd year apprentice, if they do a cert II at school that would make them a 3rd year in some trades, who employs a relative green apprentice as a 3rd year?
What about long term VET pre employment programs for the cohort of 15 - 17 year olds that don't want/need the senior certificate?


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## pk.sax (24/8/14)

Brad, I think jlm is talking more about how used to getting handouts they have become with nothing productive to put themselves to. Even working in timber they'd have some work ethic compared to now and possibly motivation to get out of that hole.

The government really needs to make some leadership decisions. They need to introduce work programs that actually teach skills, even if they cost more to run than what the dole costs. I have a feeling the governments have progressively destroyed the people's will to work hard by handing out money. We decry cuts to education and hospitals but in reality some of these are being rorted for unemployment support of the extremely lazy. Tasmania seems to have gone to the extreme there with higher costs of operation on everything else and nothing left to do. Haven't met many tassie people that left who'd want to go back. It's the same with people having left adelaide, Canberra, all those regional places. Quite at odds with people from Mel, SYD, brissy who jump at a chance to return.

So far, whenever we face the decision between backing up industry and our labour culture, quality of life etc against cheap unethically sourced competition our government takes the easy route and taps the resources pile to apply a balm to a festering sore. For Tassie, that approach means destroying the environment and would seem is the core of the problem here. Where would the line be drawn.


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## Not For Horses (25/8/14)

practicalfool said:


> Haven't met many tassie people that left who'd want to go back. It's the same with people having left adelaide, Canberra, all those regional places. Quite at odds with people from Mel, SYD, brissy who jump at a chance to return.


You obviously haven't met many people from Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane that have moved to Tassie. Or the tropics for that matter. Most of them love it here and think that it's the best thing that they have ever done. It seems to be either tropical Qld or Tas.
That leads to an interesting point about aging populations and hospitals too.
People want to spend their working life in Melbourne or Sydney and therefore demand that their tax dollars are spent there but then complain when they move to Tas or FNQ because the services are so shitty.





practicalfool said:


> So far, whenever we face the decision between backing up industry and our labour culture, quality of life etc against cheap unethically sourced competition *our government* takes the easy route


Hang on a minute there. Let's all take a bit of responsibility here.
Your government doesn't make you pay 20c less for your tinned fruit and veg because it's cheaper than local.
Your government is not forcing you to buy $1/L milk and pushing smaller producers to the point where they fold.
Your government is not making you buy imported vehicles.
Your government is not creating a massive increase in online retail at the expense of local production and retail.
At some point we all have to start thinking about where our consumables are coming from and who made them.


Brad, I feel that one of our biggest problems with education here is the lack of support at home and the little value that some people place on education. Education continues at home and we are slowly getting more and more unemployed/desolate parents here. That is a snowball kind of situation right there.
Lump that in with the fact that we are a whole state where in actual fact we are in a pretty similar situation to areas like the Goulburn Valley or regional Queensland.
Imagine if there was a new state border drawn through Qld at Hervey Bay and all but a handful of mines were removed. How do you suppose that state would do when talking about education, services and resources etc?


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## Feldon (25/8/14)

The biggest single economic blow to Tassie in recent times was the privatisation of Telstra (aka Telecom Australia).

Before privatisation Telstra was the biggest employer in the state outside of the state govt. And top jobs too, and in a fast moving high tech industry.

Telstra's forward planning for Tassie was for it to become the IT brains trust for the company. Tassie's clean and green reputation was very appealing to well-paid IT types who would live in their forest paradise while doing cutting edge jobs. The forecast spin-offs to the local economy were very solid and all sides of politics in Tas agreed it was the way forward for the state.

But privatisation went ahead, the jobs were stripped out with cost cutting.


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## Dave70 (25/8/14)

What can anybody reasonably expect from a place where everything needs to be shipped / flown in and out of and a working population population of about 320,000? Unless locals start pulling ******* Rhodium out of the ground (and not disrupting the environment, of course) prospects are fairly limited in that arena. 
By all means, educate all the kiddies to post grad degrees in corporate law, gratis for all I care, then see how many stick around to spend their lives handling conveyancing and PCA charges in Hobart. Same for any other stripe of highly educated professional. Nobody grinds out half a decade at uni, countless hours of study and thousands of dollars for the love or earning **** all. Isolation isn't all beer and skittles, that's all there is to it, and with manufacturing pretty much dead in the water, what else have you got? 

If my GST dollars go toward helping my fellow Tasmanians into projects that keep the jobs, brains and dollars local, so be it, I could think of far less worthy and wasteful ways to allocate it. If the state needs assistance, then ******* help them out. 

Incidentally, I've got a mate in Hobart who runs a very successful roofing and building materials business. He's no Rhodes Scholar, just a knockabout bloke with a bit of get up and go. Possibilities exist, but oversupply in a tiny market is always an issue. Face it, there's basically nothing exclusive to Tasmania, bar the geography, that cant be duplicated on the mainland. Yeah, we've got grass fed beef, zinc and seafood in NSW to. It's a tourist state, like it or not, and should it become undesirable as one, well NZ is only an hour and a half further away and just as pretty.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/8/14)

Dave70 said:


> If my GST dollars go toward helping my fellow Tasmanians into projects that keep the jobs, brains and dollars local, so be it, I could think of far less worthy and wasteful ways to allocate it. If the state needs assistance, then ******* help them out.


Better it goes to our fellow two headed aussies than some politicians to fly in their chartered jet to some some political wank feast a few times a year.
I hate seeing my dollars being wasted on extravagant wank for the voted in servants of the Aussie people while the average folk suffer in sub standard conditions .


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## booargy (25/8/14)

enough of the 2 headed label please,
http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2509744/two-headed-cessnock-comment-disparaging/?cs=305


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## dago001 (25/8/14)

Interesting topic. First off I should comment with Fcuk You BribieG. This isnt the first time he has done this stupid shit, and to me just shows the ignorance that he has become so adept at displaying on this forum. Stick to beer mate, your other opinions are shit. Do some research first, or alternatively, just fcuk off altogether. There is enough half arsed comments about Tassie as it is. If you think you are being funny about two headed jokes, come over here and tell a few in the local and see where it gets you. I'm quite happy to visit your local and have the same discussion. Actually, dont worry about it, we are too illiterate to unnerstan wot yoo ar sayen. Fcuk wit.
I had a quite lengthy reply which I just deleted.
Try walking in a mile of our shoes before going off half cocked and commenting about something of which you know nothing nor understand.
And JLM - dont disagree with you, but dont agree with you. Plenty of illiterate people about, but in small communities, it is just more recognisable.
Gotta go now, got a facebook emergency to take care of.


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## jlm (25/8/14)

There's the Lagerbomb I was hoping would pop up. I've already given the whinging pom a week on the benches before with calling out his bullshit (not that he learned anything) and the fact I'm an immigrant sort of doesn't give me the weight with my statements I feel. 

So, couple of quick points:

Brad.......In my experience, here and in Bris, I've got no time for a 15yo on a job site. It may essentially be state sponsored baby sitting, but I really think kids need to go through to grade 12 just to get a little bit more maturity (and at the very least I want to be able to put you in my ute, go to the wholesaler, and get me a chai latte on the way back. Shut up. They're delicious). Certainly took me a while, and there's no way I'd employ the 15yo me (and the 25yo me was quite the prick too......but I digress). But from what I can see down here is that a kid who knocks off at school in grade 10 down here doesn't just waltz into a job, quite the opposite, they just step into the long process of looking for work that never eventuates. 

I didn't go through the college process down here but from what I gather it is basically spread into 2 different streams.....kids who are studying to go to uni, and kids who are looking to get into a trade or something else that doesn't require a uni degree (happy to be corrected on this). So the kid who I mentioned in my earlier post was one of those in the "pre voc" stream I assume. But as I said, there's no way I'd recommend him as a likely apprentice due to his literacy problems. And you're right, it's something that needs to be picked up a lot earlier than when they're out looking for a job. There's a big ass problem when they can slip through the cracks for that long. Big **** off cracks I spose.

That sort of pre-vo/vet type of thing sounds great, but I'm unsure of how its implemented down here. Had a few really good kids that I trained back in Bris who did a "school based apprenticeship" and from memory they did one day a week with us, and they got six months off their time. I thought that was a really good system as it let you know if they'd fit in with your crew for a start, and if that had any real idea too. The example you give of someone potentially starting as a third year and not knowing the pointy end of a shovel (the sweet, sweet irony, that coming from a sparky......) certainly does not fly with me.

Dave70: Certainly not suggesting that we need to be training everyone down here to be rocket surgeons, just addressing the simple failures that we've got with kids not being encouraged to study through til year 12 and a lot more slipping through those big ass cracks I pointed out above. You'll actually find though that a lot of folk down here don't want to be relying on the milky gst revenue thats suckled to us via the feds teat. People want real, full time jobs. As you pointed out there's obviously a limit that can be accomplished with our population and the factors involved with our location, but certainly a fed subsidised hospitality based workforce waiting for summer to roll around will not keep people who want real jobs happy.

Notforhorses: No problems here with the services the govt rolls out. And it is ******* paradise down here. One happy mainlander who's never going back to the shithole that is SEQLD (Actually have a valid opinion on that statement , lived there for 30 years. OP take note.......LMS if you agree!!!!)

Lagerbomb: Certainly don't want to make out that my opinion is the be and end all of how things are down are down here.......Just wanted to add a bit more to the conversation with my experience down here other than the whinging poms broad statement where it all started. I mean, obviously his boycott of a couple of multi national corporations and whoever owns KID (guessing that its not some loner living in a shack on the west coast of king island) is going to hit us all really hard in the hip pocket, but we're just going to have to live with it. Same way that the auto industry worldwide is dealing with his displeasure of how cars look nowadays. Hopefully you'll chip in with that long winded response you deleted (not that I'd ever be accused of having a long winded response).


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## AndrewQLD (25/8/14)

> I mean, obviously his boycott of a couple of multi national corporations and whoever owns KID (guessing that its not some loner living in a shack on the west coast of king island) is going to hit us all really hard in the hip pocket, but we're just going to have to live with it.


I wouldn't worry too much, he does most of his shopping in ALDI anyway  .


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## MastersBrewery (25/8/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Leffe bruin is a well known cure for a raging cold


would chocolate stout have the same effect cause I'm sipping one and a cold is making it's way through the house hold as we speak.


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## TasChris (25/8/14)

I was debating whether to put my 2 cents worth in for some while but I thought I would.

Firstly the article in the OP link is an incredibly poor piece of journalism, there appears to have been little to no research beyond a reprint of Bob Brown Foundation's latest media release.

Secondly much of the area that had been added to World heritage area was not done for ecological reasons, it was done for political reasons. I have no problem with reservation of areas of the state but more than 50% is already in formal reserves...enough is enough. Much of these areas added to WHA had previously been logged and were regrowth forests.

I have been to five of the areas in the "Tarkine" that have had mines commence or about to commence, Most of these areas are not pristine forests, nearly all have extensive disturbance evident either from fire, forestry or mining form early days.

I have spent the last 14 years supervising and coordinating the harvesting of forests in NW Tas and the most important thing I have learnt is that forest grow back. Australian forest thrive on disturbance, be that fire, wind, earthquake, land slip or harvesting. Logging a patch of forest doesn't destroy it, it just sets the clock back to zero and given the right care it grows right back. It is one of the only renewable resources on this earth.

Do you own research, visit the areas or talk to people who have been there.
The press is about the last place you should go for accurate info. The press is not there to provide information, they are there to sell advertising.

We all need to stop treating Tasmania as though it was some sort of retarded child and that we all know what's best for them.

Tasmania is big enough to make its own decisions and maybe just maybe it will get it right.

Cheers
Chris


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## dago001 (25/8/14)

jlm - Nope, the long winded post wont be coming back. But I'm pleased to see TasChris pop up and have a say.
The OP has had 3 or 4 cracks at Tassie. Obviously doesnt like us for what ever reason, or maybe he thinks he is being smart and making some sort of social comment. He needs to pull his head in as he just comes cross as a d*ckhead. And as per the norm on here, the pack mentality comes out to play, makes an ill informed comments and generally does no good. Yep, we have problems here, same as every state in Australia (yes, even you WA. You stuff up your economy then want to take our share of GST off us. Sort out your own house first).
Its tough down here at the moment, but hopefully we bounce back.
So to those people who say lock up the state, take all your holidays down here and help rebuild the economy. If not then you are just as much a part of the problem, as you want it both ways. Life is invariably not that simple.


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## Blind Dog (25/8/14)

MastersBrewery said:


> would chocolate stout have the same effect cause I'm sipping one and a cold is making it's way through the house hold as we speak.


Yes, although if it doesn't then no.


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## MastersBrewery (25/8/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Yes, although if it doesn't then no.


Just incase I went the whole cellar, that at this point is only 6 different beers, I skipped the Belgian strong as it be way too young but I'm sure a good cure for all that ails yer in the months to come.

MB


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## jc64 (25/8/14)

I tried to read all of this, I really did. My ill informed opinion - I'm happy to let the people that live and work there decide of the best course of action to take. All of the talk about other rain forests in other country's seems a bit out of place, as far as I know Tasmania has a very diverse population of people who would not just destroy their environment for the sake of short term gain. Anyone who disagrees I would imagine does not live there.

(It's a fantastic wind up from Bribie G all the same h34r: )


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## Blind Dog (25/8/14)

MastersBrewery said:


> Just incase I went the whole cellar, that at this point is only 6 different beers, I skipped the Belgian strong as it be way too young but I'm sure a good cure for all that ails yer in the months to come.
> 
> MB


Good man. At this rate you'll live forever


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## shaunous (26/8/14)

I'll see you wingeing Tassie pricks in Febraury when I drive down from Northern NSW for a 2 week mission with the family for a camping holiday.

I've only ever heard good things of Tassie so im a lil' excited. I'll get more info of the place and where to hit (from you lads not the media) closer to the trip take-off date if thats alright.





Dont worry about Bribie, his an ALDI cider gulping pom :lol:


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## shaunous (26/8/14)

Also, maybe us Australian's should be worrying about what we're doing to other Countries rainforests that dont understand the future affects before we worry about our own that do. I bet no one has done a media report to what Aus companies are doing to pristine PNG (Lived there and seen that).


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## slcmorro (26/8/14)




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## Dave70 (26/8/14)

shaunous said:


> Also, maybe us Australian's should be worrying about what we're doing to other Countries rainforests that dont understand the future affects before we worry about our own that do. I bet no one has done a media report to what Aus companies are doing to pristine PNG (Lived there and seen that).


Some of us remember Ok Tedi. But mostly its forgotten.


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## dago001 (26/8/14)

jc64 said:


> I tried to read all of this, I really did. My ill informed opinion - I'm happy to let the people that live and work there decide of the best course of action to take. All of the talk about other rain forests in other country's seems a bit out of place, as far as I know Tasmania has a very diverse population of people who would not just destroy their environment for the sake of short term gain. Anyone who disagrees I would imagine does not live there.
> 
> (It's a fantastic wind up from Bribie G all the same h34r: )


Nothing ill informed about that opinion jc64. Seems quite sensible and logical. Most Tasmanians have the same opinion. We dont want to rape and pillage our environment. Sustainable forestry is the key. Unfortunately for BribieG, he has runs on the board. Is he trying to be the new NickJD, at least Nick new what he was talking about. Its not a wind up, its just rubbish. I'm on 3 forums that he is on. This is the only forum that he does sh!t. Wouldnt get away with it on the other ones. He is rapidly wearing out his welcome card. Not welcome in Queensland or Tasmania.



shaunous said:


> I'll see you wingeing Tassie pricks in Febraury when I drive down from Northern NSW for a 2 week mission with the family for a camping holiday.
> 
> I've only ever heard good things of Tassie so im a lil' excited. I'll get more info of the place and where to hit (from you lads not the media) closer to the trip take-off date if thats alright.
> 
> ...


Tassie is a great place to come camping. Send me a PM a bit closer to the date, and I will try and help you out. Hell, if your up my way, call in for a beer.



shaunous said:


> Also, maybe us Australian's should be worrying about what we're doing to other Countries rainforests that dont understand the future affects before we worry about our own that do. I bet no one has done a media report to what Aus companies are doing to pristine PNG (Lived there and seen that).


Exactly - are we happy to continue to destroy other countries forests to supply our own needs, or go down the path of sustainable forestry practices.


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## Donske (26/8/14)

shaunous said:


> Also, maybe us Australian's should be worrying about what we're doing to other Countries rainforests that dont understand the future affects before we worry about our own that do. I bet no one has done a media report to what Aus companies are doing to pristine PNG (Lived there and seen that).



PNG has other issues at play and if you lived there you know that mate, from the South East Asians raping the land and sea for every penny they can extract from it to the traditional land owners themselves willing to destroy their own environment with illegal gold mining using poor practices just to fill their coffers. Australians of course have had a detrimental effect but surely blaming it all on us is a stretch.

I was going to say something on the Ok Tedi thing but my company still has dealings with them so probably best not to comment there.


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## philmud (26/8/14)

Worth mentioning that Tassie residents are just as divided on this issue. My in-laws are from there & have differing opinions. My mother-in-law is firmly in the conservationist camp, attends rallies & all of that. My father-in-law would describe himself as a pragmatist & while he probably wouldn't argue for the expansion of the logging industry, he understands the issues with the notion that the state should seamlessly adapt to life without it. As someone mentioned, your average timber worker is not well suited to hospitality.
Personally, I'm a conservationist, but I freely admit that I've got no idea how the transition could be achieved without throwing the next two (more?) generations of timber industry workers under the bus.
Interesting to me is that Bribie is from QLD. If I was to pick a holiday destination on the basis of agreeing with the Government's policies, QLD would come in marginally ahead of North Korea. Additionally, boycotts of this kind don't encourage the expansion of the tourism industry, they suppress it. Anyone who cared more about the Tarkine than their own moral outrage would encourage people to visit it & spend a few dollars.


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## niftinev (26/8/14)

At the end of the day people need jobs (I'm not saying at any expense) and jobs create more jobs and most states have forest industries like logging and so should Tassie ( just needs good management) not chop it all down mentality, the environment needs to looked after not just locked up.
Everyone needs to be able to enjoy what this great country has to offer
We also need for all to have minimum education (stop and help those that fall through the cracks) and if you have to sit on a bus for a fuckin hour to get to school because of where you live so be it (been there).
There is no point in making thousands unemployed and adding billions to the cost of welfare, we need to create jobs and if it needs financial help so be it. Most other countries help their industries financially so why not us. How much is it going to cost this country in welfare payments for the closing down of the car industry and it's flow on affects. probably a billion a year as against a billion every 10-15 years not to mention the other socio economic problems associated with it.
Don't think the pollies will sort it out, they just like to feather their own nest and waste our money, Yes they got their free uni degrees that we payed for and now want to further burden the young with higher costs (**** you Pine and Costello) let them have it at lower costs so they can afford to have families and buy homes and everything else associated with it ( this will create jobs) don't leave them burden in debt until there 35-40 years old before they can do this. What you think because they earn more with a degree they should pay more for it! this is what the tax brackets are for you dumb ass pollies, yes they will pay more in taxes provided we have and create jobs for them.
enough of my rantings

And to all you Tasmanians I look forward to oneday visiting that great state you all call home

ps bribies noy a queenslander just lived there for a while


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## Dave70 (26/8/14)

niftinev said:


> Most other countries help their industries financially so why not us. How much is it going to cost this country in welfare payments for the closing down of the car industry and it's flow on affects. probably a billion a year as against a billion every 10-15 years not to mention the other socio economic problems associated with it.


We all have a dig at the yanks for their cheesy, almost nationalistic brand of patriotism. But a National Research Center study estimated that in the order of 78% of consumers would buy American, even if it cost more. If I can dig up the study, I'll link it. 'Made in America' is a powerful marketing tool. _Thats_ how countries help their industry's.
So to that end, how many reading this are guilty of passing the Dick Smith peanut butter for the cheaper Kraft brand? I sure as **** am. And it not like buying the local brand would break the bank either. Just like I buy online from overseas if its cheaper. We all love a bargain, right? Just consider for a second how many local industries have tanked because we all chose to save a few bucks on a collard shirt or tin of fruit. Every stitch of clothing I'm currently clad in was assembled in China or India. 

Laying 100% of the blame for failing industry at the governments feet is bullshit if consumers aren't willing to put their money where their mouths are and buy local. As is pissing money into clearly unsustainable manufacturing. The writing was on the wall for our car industry years ago. It should go without saying however, there's no free ride. If your local product is rubbish, know ones going to pay for the privilege of multiple warranty claims. 

I'm as much for kicking the guberment in the balls as the next malcontent, but blaming Hocky and co for all our financial woes, social inequity and un employment is pure hypocrisy when our shopping trolleys are full of Brazilian oranges and American peanut butter. The fact that we, as individuals, are more or less the architects of our own financial futures cant be ignored. Blame governments for everything if it makes you feel better, buy you're really pissing up the wrong tree in my opinion.


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## philmud (26/8/14)

Dave, any idea whether the US manufacturing industry has much protection from Government? I take your point that the study found that US consumers weren't price driven, but it'd be interesting to know whether that culture developed in a relative free market, or one with heavy economic protection.


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## Feldon (26/8/14)

What people might say to a survey question and what they actually do when shopping are two very different things.

70% of the US economy is shopping, most of it on foreign-made good.


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## Dave70 (26/8/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> Dave, any idea whether the US manufacturing industry has much protection from Government? I take your point that the study found that US consumers weren't price driven, but it'd be interesting to know whether that culture developed in a relative free market, or one with heavy economic protection.


No, not really, but fair to assume what works in a country of 330 million may not necessarily translate to a country of 23 million. But I think the secret is in the attitude more than anything. Obviously all Americans don't buy local _exclusively, _but its far more ingrained into their culture. It's idealistic to think buying local is some kind of economic panacea, but its good place to start. 

What I _do_ know for a fact is I have a customer who can get his structural steel manufactured, galvanized and shipped over from China ready to install for less of the cost of even getting it fabricated locally. Barangaroo is pretty much full of imported, pre fab, made in China steel. If governments want to stick their beaks in, here's an area begging for it. Its ******* killing the industry.


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## Dave70 (26/8/14)

Feldon said:


> What people might say to a survey question and what they actually do when shopping are two very different things.
> 
> 70% of the US economy is shopping, most of it on foreign-made good.


True, only bored arseholes generally fill out surveys. But percentages are relative. 30% may be all it takes to sustain local industries and keep people employed. 
Where did you get 70% from anyway?


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## niftinev (26/8/14)

At the end of the day people need jobs (I'm not saying at any expense) and jobs create more jobs and most states have forest industries like logging and so should Tassie ( just needs good management) not chop it all down mentality, the environment needs to looked after not just locked up.
Everyone needs to be able to enjoy what this great country has to offer
We also need for all to have minimum education (stop and help those that fall through the cracks) and if you have to sit on a bus for a fuckin hour to get to school because of where you live so be it (been there).
There is no point in making thousands unemployed and adding billions to the cost of welfare, we need to create jobs and if it needs financial help so be it. Most other countries help their industries financially so why not us. How much is it going to cost this country in welfare payments for the closing down of the car industry and it's flow on affects. probably a billion a year as against a billion every 10-15 years not to mention the other socio economic problems associated with it.
Don't think the pollies will sort it out, they just like to feather their own nest and waste our money, Yes they got their free uni degrees that we payed for and now want to further burden the young with higher costs (**** you Pine and Costello) let them have it at lower costs so they can afford to have families and buy homes and everything else associated with it ( this will create jobs) don't leave them burden in debt until there 35-40 years old before they can do this. What you think because they earn more with a degree they should pay more for it! this is what the tax brackets are for you dumb ass pollies, yes they will pay more in taxes provided we have and create jobs for them.
enough of my rantings

And to all you Tasmanians I look forward to oneday visiting that great state you all call home

ps bribies noy a queenslander just lived there for a while
[/quote]

edit should read pine and abbot, apologise to costello (not even a polly anymore)


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## niftinev (26/8/14)

> We all have a dig at the yanks for their cheesy, almost nationalistic brand of patriotism. But a National Research Center study estimated that in the order of 78% of consumers would buy American, even if it cost more. If I can dig up the study, I'll link it. 'Made in America' is a powerful marketing tool. _Thats_ how countries help their industry's.
> So to that end, how many reading this are guilty of passing the Dick Smith peanut butter for the cheaper Kraft brand? I sure as **** am. And it not like buying the local brand would break the bank either. Just like I buy online from overseas if its cheaper. We all love a bargain, right? Just consider for a second how many local industries have tanked because we all chose to save a few bucks on a collard shirt or tin of fruit. Every stitch of clothing I'm currently clad in was assembled in China or India.
> 
> Laying 100% of the blame for failing industry at the governments feet is bullshit if consumers aren't willing to put their money where their mouths are and buy local. As is pissing money into clearly unsustainable manufacturing. The writing was on the wall for our car industry years ago. It should go without saying however, there's no free ride. If your local product is rubbish, know ones going to pay for the privilege of multiple warranty claims.
> ...


I never layed total blame on the gov. just that it was there decision that provided one of the final nails in the coffin in regards to the car industry and your trolley may be full of Brazilian oranges and American peanut butter but mine isn't. You just keep buying everything from overseas it'll help fix the prob. and yes I own and drive an aussie made car. It's good to hear you think all aussie made cars are rubbish, what a great help!
Buy Australian if you can it will help.


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## Feldon (26/8/14)

Dave70 said:


> True, only bored arseholes generally fill out surveys. But percentages are relative. 30% may be all it takes to sustain local industries and keep people employed.
> Where did you get 70% from anyway?


Shopping has accounted for 70% of the Us economy for years now.

Just a grab bag...

From the _New York Times _back in 2009:
_Given that consumer spending has in recent years accounted for 70 percent of the nation’s economic activity, a marginal shrinking could significantly depress demand for goods and services, discouraging businesses from hiring more workers._
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/business/economy/29consumer.html?_r=0

And more recently in _Crain's Chicago Business _in Nov last year:
_Less optimism among Americans could slow the holiday shopping season and weigh on economic growth. Consumer spending drives 70 percent of economic activity._
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20131126/NEWS07/131129839/consumer-confidence-in-u-s-economy-falls-to-7-month-low

Basically, Mr & Mrs Joe Average in the US go shopping at the mall and load up with Chinese made stuff. To pay China for it the US Govt gives China treasury notes denominated in US dollars (China has long been the US's biggest creditor - the US is in hock to China for $trillions).

To keep the domestic economic cycle going the US Federal Reserve has been issuing currency to banks at zero percent interest. And to keep the supply of US dollars up they just print more money whenever they need to (they call it 'Quantative Easing'). 

Now, all commodities have a price. If you ask what's the price of potatoes? the answer might be $3.50/kilo. But money is somewhat different. The price of money is determined by its interest. So if interest is 10% and you want to buy 1 dollar its going to cost you $1.10. But with the Federal Reserve issuing currency at zero percent it means it has no value - its worthless.

Its only a matter of time before the Chinese get fed up with US treasury notes that are worthless.


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## Dave70 (26/8/14)

niftinev said:


> I never layed total blame on the gov. just that it was there decision that provided one of the final nails in the coffin in regards to the car industry and your trolley may be full of Brazilian oranges and American peanut butter but mine isn't. You just keep buying everything from overseas it'll help fix the prob. and yes I own and drive an aussie made car. It's good to hear you think all aussie made cars are rubbish, what a great help!
> Buy Australian if you can it will help.


Don't take it personally nev, I was just speaking in the broader sense. I'm as guilty as the next guy for shopping offshore, I thought I made that obvious. 
Good on you for buying a Australian made car, hope your happy with it. On balance I've found Toyota's to be far better built, better resale and more reliable. 
The government may have nailed the lid shut on the coffin, but the body was on death row way before that. If a robot can do your job quicker, cheaper and with more precision, your days are numbered.


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## philmud (26/8/14)

Dave70 said:


> The government may have nailed the lid shut on the coffin, but the body was on death row way before that. If a robot can do your job quicker, cheaper and with more precision, your days are numbered.


So here is where I think the role of Government sits; to assist communities affected by industrial shifts like this to develop new industries that are economically viable without being continually propped up. I'm yet to see it done well. Geelong is a community with similar problems & the last Federal Gov responded by setting up the NDIS headquarters in Geelong. This might assist by attracting people to the area, but your average Ford production line worker won't necessarily get work with the NDIS, or within a service/supporting industry.
It's a tough ask; find and bankroll a viable industry that won't only support future generations, but also the people immediately affected by the demise of the outgoing industry.

I think the only sensible answer in Tasmania is for the Government to subsidise a lumberjack porn industry.


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## niftinev (26/8/14)

> Don't take it personally nev, I was just speaking in the broader sense. I'm as guilty as the next guy for shopping offshore, I thought I made that obvious.
> Good on you for buying a Australian made car, hope your happy with it. On balance I've found Toyota's to be far better built, better resale and more reliable.
> The government may have nailed the lid shut on the coffin, but the body was on death row way before that. If a robot can do your job quicker, cheaper and with more precision, your days are numbered.


nah not taking it personally just think sometimes we need to help our own and I hate not having good choices
sick of this made in china crap just so multi nationals can make more money
and I hate companies that bring goods in from another country then send them onto us as made in or product of that country not china, yes Heinz your part of it.
If i wanted to eat food grown in shit I'd shit in my own vege patch not need someone elses
I've seen and had to use enough poor quality goods it's made me sick
i'm just a poor pensioner now so maybe I can start up a benevolent society so all you good people here will help me out(donate) as well as the man who wants to become a brewer.
Nah **** off it's great. I will survive!

cheers Dave


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## Spohaw (26/8/14)

wish I was a greenie doo gooder ....I would have read this thread instead of skipping to the end

im going to have a beer and chop some wood


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## Lincoln2 (26/8/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> I think the only sensible answer in Tasmania is for the Government to subsidise a lumberjack porn industry.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL7n5mEmXJo

I couldn't resist.


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## pk.sax (26/8/14)

Dave70 said:


> No, not really, but fair to assume what works in a country of 330 million may not necessarily translate to a country of 23 million. But I think the secret is in the attitude more than anything. Obviously all Americans don't buy local _exclusively, _but its far more ingrained into their culture. It's idealistic to think buying local is some kind of economic panacea, but its good place to start.
> 
> What I _do_ know for a fact is I have a customer who can get his structural steel manufactured, galvanized and shipped over from China ready to install for less of the cost of even getting it fabricated locally. Barangaroo is pretty much full of imported, pre fab, made in China steel. If governments want to stick their beaks in, here's an area begging for it. Its ******* killing the industry.


It is about value add.

If you are building houses out of cheap pre-fab steel from o/s you are definitely hurting the economy. There isn't any real value add on that which justifies taking the equivalent activity from the local economy.
If you are holding off imported steel with tarriffs and that steel is required to build a tomato canning factory, forcing the tomato canning factory to be built more expensive and slower and not be able to afford modern cost saving technology, then you are kicking back a genuine opportunity to add exponential value to that steel and make some real money.
It'd make sense to me if they wanted to log selectively and let's say set up a furniture industry, building timber, flooring etc that'd add real value, sell the labour of the workers making that stuff. They could dig into the foliage and set up a herbal products industry. Attract some brains in and really put people to work, it'd involve working harder though.

This idea that tassie forests are about to be turned into wood chips is what rankles the greenie. It is bare subsistence industry. You're not lifting anyone out of that. This is bare minimum lip service at the cost of turning trees into wood chip. Leave that low value harvesting alone. It's the attitude of minimum effort for low margin income on a large scale that is repulsive.


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## niftinev (26/8/14)

> What I _do_ know for a fact is I have a customer who can get his structural steel manufactured, galvanized and shipped over from China ready to install for less of the cost of even getting it fabricated locally. Barangaroo is pretty much full of imported, pre fab, made in China steel. If governments want to stick their beaks in, here's an area begging for it. Its ******* killing the industry.


It'll probabably bite them on the arse in the long run as it is some of the worst steel you can get and don't believe anything they tell you as they think 9001 gives it quality it is only a measure of everything being made exactly the same ie if the quality of materials is poor your final product will be poor


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## Not For Horses (26/8/14)

practicalfool said:


> This idea that tassie forests are about to be turned into wood chips is what rankles the greenie. It is bare subsistence industry. You're not lifting anyone out of that. This is bare minimum lip service at the cost of turning trees into wood chip. Leave that low value harvesting alone. It's the attitude of minimum effort for low margin income on a large scale that is repulsive.


It's also not the only thing we do here. To an extent it is where gunns was pushing the industry but it most certainly was not the only use of our trees.
One of my many hats is that of bushfire hazard assessor. I recently did a job for the local sawmiller in a regional Tasmanian town. He was building an office for his new concrete batching plant. Sounds like he's diversifying right? Well not quite. He had to close the sawmill and lay off the 5 blokes that worked for him because he couldn't get logs thank to all the forest peace deals. So now he's able to scratch out a decent living for his family but what about the other 5 blokes? Unemployed now.
Also did a small mining lease survey for yet another small regional sawmiller. Same story, he's going to sell pebbles and the like from his land while the sawmill sits and rots and the 4 blokes that used to work for him now look for work.
Both these mills were profitable, busy mills 5 or 10 years ago. Both, this year, still had excellent pre orders from local customers. The first guy had an excellent contract selling flooring. Price of logs went up due to availability and he was priced out of the market by imports.
So by all means, hate on woodchips if you must (if you promise not to print emails or read books or wipe your arse anymore) but for goodness sake let us grow timber.


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## pk.sax (26/8/14)

I don't see why they can't recycle the tons of newsprint and packaging cardboard into more paper. Of course you have to keep topping it up with more raw plant material. There is also thousands of hectares under cultivation in Australia with grasses (wheat, barley...) producing tons of waste fibre. Are you really justifying logging forests for paper? Wasn't someone whinging about having to sort their recycling on this forum just days ago.

Really sad about genuine timber business going out of business due to being locked out of the market, I'm sure the small guys will gain with these changes but the lions share of the damage and the profits will be on the hands of the 'gunns'. And they don't truly give a shit, do they?


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## philmud (26/8/14)

Not For Horses said:


> So by all means, hate on woodchips if you must (if you promise not to print emails or read books or wipe your arse anymore) but for goodness sake let us grow timber.


I'd happily print/wipe/read with hemp based papers & I understand as a crop it's higher yielding (per acre) & obviously has a faster growth cycle.


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## Not For Horses (26/8/14)

Yep that is true, hemp is a far better crop for a few of those applications. But do you think they'd let us grow the stuff here? It's easier to grow poppies than it is hemp. Can't be grown in a paddock visible from a public road, can't be grown within 5km of a school plus many other regulations that I've not properly read. 
The point I was making was about saw logs. I'm not a fan of a chip industry at all. 
I most certainly did not justify logging for chips. I was making a point about timber. 
Chips were originally intended to supplement the timber industry here as a use for waste product but alas it went a bit awry.


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## shaunous (26/8/14)

Donske said:


> PNG has other issues at play and if you lived there you know that mate, from the South East Asians raping the land and sea for every penny they can extract from it to the traditional land owners themselves willing to destroy their own environment with illegal gold mining using poor practices just to fill their coffers. Australians of course have had a detrimental effect but surely blaming it all on us is a stretch.
> 
> I was going to say something on the Ok Tedi thing but my company still has dealings with them so probably best not to comment there.


Pretty sure I didn't blame Australia for all of PNG's faults at all in my post???

Ok Tedi has cleaned up a lot since the days of purging the river of all it's by-products and killing everything down stream.


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## philmud (26/8/14)

Not For Horses said:


> Yep that is true, hemp is a far better crop for a few of those applications. But do you think they'd let us grow the stuff here? It's easier to grow poppies than it is hemp. Can't be grown in a paddock visible from a public road, can't be grown within 5km of a school plus many other regulations that I've not properly read.
> The point I was making was about saw logs. I'm not a fan of a chip industry at all.
> I most certainly did not justify logging for chips. I was making a point about timber.
> Chips were originally intended to supplement the timber industry here as a use for waste product but alas it went a bit awry.


The restrictions around hemp growing are ridiculous, the variety used for these applications contain very minimal THC. 

That said, I think medicinal marijuana would also be a great crop for Tassie. If you manage to grow poppies & Tassie has the lowest rate of pharmacotherapy therapy for opioid dependency of any state, then surely cannabis could be produced safely.


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/8/14)

Governments freak out as soon as hemp is mentioned....they manage to come up with all sorts of reasons, mostly bullshit, to not want a hemp industry


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## philmud (26/8/14)

Marijuana prohibition in the US was achieved on the back of a massive media campaign run by a media mogul with big money in timber/cotton. Australia followed suit on advice from the US Government. 

I reckon our policies will catch up with community standards over the next 10-15 years (sooner perhaps). Medicinal cannabis to treat conditions like epilepsy is gaining some real attention lately. The VIC opposition leader will campaign on a medicinal marijuana platform this November. I bloody hope it gets up, hardly anyone gives a toss about recreational pot smoking, let alone a seemingly effective medical treatment.


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## Yob (26/8/14)

Not For Horses said:


> Yep that is true, hemp is a far better crop for a few of those applications. But do you think they'd let us grow the stuff here? It's easier to grow poppies than it is hemp.


There are a number of HEMP farms down Hounville way... I used to live not far from the poppy fields in Tas.. conversely.. used to live around quite a number of ... hempish fields in Huonville too :lol:


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## lswhi3 (26/8/14)

The World Heritage Commission doesn't just list sites for nothing.


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## bradsbrew (26/8/14)

Luke1992 said:


> The World Heritage Commission doesn't just list sites for nothing.


No it doesn't. But the reasoning behind it could be a lot different to what the general population believes it is.


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## Not For Horses (26/8/14)

Luke1992 said:


> The World Heritage Commission doesn't just list sites for nothing.


That is for damn sure.
The wilderness society however...


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## pedleyr (26/8/14)

Feldon said:


> Shopping has accounted for 70% of the Us economy for years now.
> 
> Just a grab bag...
> 
> ...


Just for anyone reading this please understand that it's a gross oversimplification. 

The Fed isn't printing money. It's buying T bills. 

It is not "issuing currency to banks at zero percent interest". It is charging 0 or close to 0 interest at the discount window. 

These are not semantic distinctions, they are important and complex topics. Terminology matters. 

It's also just wrong to say that money has value in the way you say. Money is a medium of exchange. $10 is only worth $10 because you'll give me goods or services in exchange for that $10. The rate at the discount window is so far disconnected from the concept of the value of money that you have said that it directly influences that it's not even funny. And before you mention inflation, you need to take the velocity of money into account to even go there, and you've not yet done that. 

If the Chinese get fed up with them as you say, what will they do? What can they do? Sell their holdings? How will that impact the US treasury given that they have already sold the bonds and aren't impacted by a sale on the secondary market. 

What will China do with all of the US dollars it gets for selling products to the US? Buy Russian bonds? First it needs to get rid of its dollars. What can it do with those dollars? It'll exchange them of course. They aren't going to be worthless while that state of affairs persists. 

How will US dollars become worthless when they are required to pay taxes in a $15 trillion economy? Backed by the most powerful military in history, if you think such things are relevant. To save you the time - it sure as shit won't happen because China get fed up. China need the US.

Edit - it's also flat out misleading to say that China is the biggest creditor to the US. The largest holder of T bills is the social security trust. The biggest creditor is the US populace.


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## SmallFry (26/8/14)

Fcuck you, Australia Felix
Fcuck you, the sheep's back
*Fcuck you, Tasmania*
Fcuck you, Big Mac

I drive a truck
I drive a truck

(with apologies)


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## Goatfish (26/8/14)

We used to own a decent sized property down South with a small timber mill on the side. This mill had a licence to go into local forest areas marked for felling and select specialty timber I.e. Huon pine, sassafras, myrtle etc, where we would gather them before the big boys would come through and log timber mainly for wood chips. The big timber companies were often near impossible to work with, time and time again they would come in early with no notice and clear the place out. Obviously we need paper but seeing truck after truck go past with logs worth thousands of dollars each only to be turned into near worthless chips was a bloody disgrace. 

Wouldn't be so bad if the wood chips were all processed in Australia instead of being shipped overseas. 

I don't agree with totally banning logging, and these pre logged areas won't have grown back a lot of slow growing timbers any way/may never have contained them, but the industry needs to be reasonably well regulated, like any natural resource industry, especially when you look back to the Paul Lennon days.


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## TasChris (27/8/14)

practicalfool said:


> It is about value add.
> 
> If you are building houses out of cheap pre-fab steel from o/s you are definitely hurting the economy. There isn't any real value add on that which justifies taking the equivalent activity from the local economy.
> If you are holding off imported steel with tarriffs and that steel is required to build a tomato canning factory, forcing the tomato canning factory to be built more expensive and slower and not be able to afford modern cost saving technology, then you are kicking back a genuine opportunity to add exponential value to that steel and make some real money.
> ...


Do you really think that native forests are just logged for wood chip?
All state controlled native forests in Tasmania, I can't speak for private land, (except for plantations that are grown for the express purpose of chip) are logged for higher value product. Chip logs are the by product of a sawlog industry. Forestry is way too expensive to go and exclusively chase low yielding product.
Returns of $10-$20 per tonne for pulp, Returns of $70-150 per tonne for sawlog nd upto $1000-$10,000 per tonne for very high value special species ie black Heart Sassafrass, Huon Pine, Tiger Myrtle etc.

One of the issues with Australian timber is that there is waste due to high incidence of defect within trees, on an average 40-60% of logs will not meet a higher grade product. This lower grade resource is what goes into the chippers and is exported...Would be great to be able to downstream process this material into other products such as paper, particle board, MDF, nano cellulose products.
Look up nano cellulose, exciting stuff, it can be used to make just about everything from plastics to capacitors

Selective logging:
The majority of forests in Tas are selectively logged. The exception is the wet eucalypt forests of NW and SW Tasmania that are pretty much clear fell. There are some very good reasons to clearfall such as, better regen, safety, cost etc etc, Selective logging is best practiced in dry multi aged forests however these techniques do not always cover all forest types.
Forestry has been going on in Tas since man first arrived on the island and funnily enough much of these pre logged areas are now within World Heritage areas, so us foresters must have been getting something right.

Alternatives:
Crops such as hemp, wheat stubble etc. have very high chemical inputs and a huge C02 footprint. Native forest logging has no chemical inputs...could be considered organic and is also the *only* carbon positive industry in Aus.
Growing products such hemp, wheat, sugar cane fro pulp is also incredibly expensive ,tough on soils, have high water inputs, fertilizers, insecticides, fungicides, its difficult to bulk transport, has low pulp yields and at the end of the day you still have to build a pulp mill and paper plant that no body wants in their back yard.

Where are the alternatives to timber ? Concrete, steel, aluminium? Recycling is only a small percentage of actual need.

If only we could construct houses from dream catchers?

Cheers
Chris


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## mje1980 (27/8/14)

You're not trying to bring logic and fact to an internet thread are you ?.


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## TasChris (27/8/14)

One can but try


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## philmud (27/8/14)

TasChris said:


> One of the issues with Australian timber is that there is waste due to high incidence of defect within trees, on an average 40-60%...


That makes the industry sound even more unsustainable



TasChris said:


> Alternatives:
> Crops such as hemp, wheat stubble etc. have very high chemical inputs and a huge C02 footprint. Native forest logging has no chemical inputs...could be considered organic and is also the *only* carbon positive industry in Aus.
> Growing products such hemp, wheat, sugar cane fro pulp is also incredibly expensive ,tough on soils, have high water inputs, fertilizers, insecticides, fungicides, its difficult to bulk transport, has low pulp yields and at the end of the day you still have to build a pulp mill and paper plant that no body wants in their back yard.
> 
> Where are the alternatives to timber ? Concrete, steel, aluminium? Recycling is only a small percentage of actual need.


Chris, you realise the alternative crops you've listed don't require identical farming methods or have identical environmental impacts, right? Can you provide some kind of back up to your statement as it pertains to hemp? Everything I've read suggests that it's a high yielding, fast growing, low impact crop that requires very little in the way if pesticides & fertilizers. 

It is incidentally a crop that can also be used for nano-cellulose AND for building materials.

Here's a link from Forbes magazine (I chose this one, because Forbes could hardly be accused of advocating for houses built from dream catchers!): 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ashoka/2013/05/29/industrial-hemp-a-win-win-for-the-economy-and-the-environment/


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## Yob (27/8/14)

aah selective logging, such harmony with the land


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## philmud (27/8/14)

Here's another (less impartial, but well referenced) link re hemp. Some key points*:
- hemp "breathes in" 4 x the CO2 of trees
- 1 acre of hemp produces as much cellulose fibre product as 4.1 acres of trees
- hemp has a 12-14 week growing cycle Vs. circa 20 years for trees.

* as per my point in my earlier post, I realise that commercially grown trees are also not homogenous. For example, 20 years may not be a typical growth cycle in the Aus timber industry. It's definitely not 3 months though.

http://www.hemp-technologies.com/page33/page33.html


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## mje1980 (27/8/14)

Hemp decking doesn't quite look as good. And I doubt it makes as good a housing frame.


What is hemp so great for?, and what other materials can it replace?

First line was a bit if a joke but I'm genuinely curious.


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## philmud (27/8/14)

mje1980 said:


> ...What is hemp so great for?, and what other materials can it replace?...


Have a squizz at the last link I posted. Basically hemp can produce food, fuel, fiber (cloth, paper etc), plastics, nano-cellulose (Chris is right, this shit IS exciting). I could potentially replace some petrochemicals, cotton, woodchips etc.


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## Dave70 (27/8/14)

niftinev said:


> It'll probabably bite them on the arse in the long run as it is some of the worst steel you can get and don't believe anything they tell you as they think 9001 gives it quality it is only a measure of everything being made exactly the same ie if the quality of materials is poor your final product will be poor


Don't think all the steel coming out of China is a throwback to Mao's Great Leap Forward with peasants smelting the stuff in coal fired clay furnaces out in the paddock. The Bluescope plants in Shanghai for one are as advanced as anything here, as its the product. Any structural steel used here is (or at least should be) backed by test certificates, metallurgist reports and a host of other 'signing off' nit picking. Thats part of the problem. Its an equally good product at a cheaper price. 
Remember the old axiom 'Jap crap'? These days, 'Made in Japan' is almost the gold standard for reliable, precision equipment. From my Hilux (though it was assembled in Indoneisa..) to my D7000 Nikon and its disturbingly expensive lenses, basically the most high end stuff I own comes from Japan. 

I'd wager we'll be saying the same thing about 'That Chinese made shit' in a few years also. 

Except perhaps their hops..


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## TasChris (27/8/14)

Yob said:


> aah selective logging, such harmony with the land
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Clearly it was a clearfall coupe. These photos are very stark straight after regen burning, however have a look at the site 2 years, 5yrs, 20 years after harvest when the regen is 20 feet tall and growing like the clappers.

There is a series of photos from a Styx Valley coupe that does capture this time scale. There is a need to tell the whole tale not just grap a one of shot. The average life span of a eucalypt is approx. 400-500 years if left undisturbed. This doesn't happen to often in an Australian context due to fire frequency.


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## TasChris (27/8/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> Here's another (less impartial, but well referenced) link re hemp. Some key points*:
> - hemp "breathes in" 4 x the CO2 of trees
> - 1 acre of hemp produces as much cellulose fibre product as 4.1 acres of trees
> - hemp has a 12-14 week growing cycle Vs. circa 20 years for trees.
> ...


Its not just about C02 take up but how much it locks up and for how long. All C02 locked up in plant material will eventually be released as the material breaks down over time.
ie the solid timber in you house will lock up carbon for potentially hundreds of years, paper for much much less.
Getting a broad cross section of products is the ideal and allowing for long rotation length
ie native forests 70-100+yrs between harvest


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

Thats it. The Chinese now have "State of the Art" equipment. A lot is euro designed ( some even made in europe ) and exported to China and set up.

Its going to be interesting over the next decade's as their workers put their hands up for more pay...bit like what happened in Mexico with the American made cars.

Africa is going to be the next " China". The Chinese are already looking over there as they know whats going to happen.

And when Africa is spent, then they will look at Australia for low wages after the LNP completely **** things for the working class and have us working for $2hr....


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## philmud (27/8/14)

TasChris said:


> Its not just about C02 take up but how much it locks up and for how long. All C02 locked up in plant material will eventually be released as the material breaks down over time.
> ie the solid timber in you house will lock up carbon for potentially hundreds of years, paper for much much less.
> Getting a broad cross section of products is the ideal and allowing for long rotation length
> ie native forests 70-100+yrs between harvest


That's an interesting point - I guess the end use for the carbon hemp determines whether it's stored or released back into the atmosphere. I'm not sure about the longevity of hemp based building products but I don't imagine it's substantially less than timber.


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## shaunous (27/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Thats it. The Chinese now have "State of the Art" equipment. A lot is euro designed ( some even made in europe ) and exported to China and set up.
> 
> Its going to be interesting over the next decade's as their workers put their hands up for more pay...bit like what happened in Mexico with the American made cars.
> 
> ...



I'd happily work for $2/hr..........................................................If petrol was .01c/Ltr, and a loaf of bread was .05c


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## spog (27/8/14)

At $2.00 an hour there will be a massive market for push bikes ,AHB bulk buy anyone? 
Cheers...spog...


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## sponge (27/8/14)

I heard the Chinese make some really good ones..


h34r:


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## spog (27/8/14)

From Aussie iron ore,mountain bikes would be the go,we can ride them in the fcuking great holes left over when the ore runs out.


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

and the coal


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## Elz (27/8/14)

shaunous said:


> I'd happily work for $2/hr..........................................................If petrol was .01c/Ltr, and a loaf of bread was .05c


I remember when minimum chips was 5 cents. Here's to going back to late 60's Aus, do not know the average hourly $ rate though


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

$2/hr


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## madpierre06 (27/8/14)

Trying to recall, in '79, on school holidays ( I was 17) I got paid $122 for three days work as a shearers cook out past Bollon. So about $40 a day for long days Then after leaving school went into a job as general hand for local transport mob paying about $90 a week after tax. Funny how you remember some figures, I can't remember other prices, I think fuel was about 30 or 40c a litre. Give or take 5 or 10c. And those cone shaped spaceship icecream cups with the gumball in the bottom were about 15c I think. 

Been following this thread with interest, thanks to the Tassie boys for adding to clarification to the OP, I more than likely would have accepted what was originally posted without a great deal of questioning. Have my own thoughts on some of the later points raised but no time now to elaborate as am at work. Other than to say the bloody farm is being sold out from under the people of Austtralia to keep trade balance figures looking good, a house is no longer a home, it's just a bloody commodity these days and the only people who can realistically grab one are investors as the average bloke with/without a family has far fewer full time jobs left to chase which makes him far less likely to be able to source reasonable finance. 

**** community/society, let's bow to the great idol 'economy'. Got to keep retail tills ticking over, eh. We'll set up a system where generally the average joe is only able/allowed to earn a total dollar figure which falls within a range allowed for to keep him under the yoke. That's part of my theory (conspiracy or otherwise) anyway.


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

Sentiments madpierre

I did my trade with the NSW Railway's. At the time all Gov owned agencies took in massive amounts of apprentice's, trained them, skilled them, then let them go, some stayed, many went.

Today, how many apprentice jobs do you see advertised ....very little

When I left school in year 10 you had 2 options, an Apprenticeship or do Yr12..

Its a shame that those government subsidised apprentice's are no longer available. Yes, it cost us, the tax payer initially, but the output of skilled tradespeople that it created is what keeps us going

It is a real shame that the trades have been bastardised to the point that the current Apprentices are now only used to going to Bun&^gs for info.

The funny thing is that the Gov is now paying 3rd party "organisations" to " manage" apprentices....


What a ******* joke


----------



## madpierre06 (27/8/14)

Makes you wonder where the tradies who should be around in 30 years or so are going to come from. And back in the day for the tax payer dollar you got a massive return to the community in general....someone with a trade who could employ abd train those to come after, who could buy a house (more work and income generated), spend money and pay tax. MOney spent geberated real money and all round dbenefits to this country as a whole.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

How many new builders, sparkies, plumbers, techs are coming thru the system

I am wondering NOW about what my kids that are 7 & 9 are going to do....


----------



## davewalk (27/8/14)

Feldon said:


> Shopping has accounted for 70% of the Us economy for years now.
> 
> Just a grab bag...
> 
> ...


----------



## jlm (27/8/14)

I like the way this topic has turned into a relatively reasonable conversation considering its origins. Cheers to the input from Tas/VicChris, and from prince imperial's too. 

Have been without real internets for a few days seeing as I had to go out to here:




To talk about wiring the building, and then off to the Flinders Island to wire the house built around this:




When I get a week like this, I think the thread should be re-titled "**** Yeah-Tasmania!"


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## dago001 (27/8/14)

My sentiments exactly jlm (we must catch up for our yearly beer, sooner rather than later)
I work for one of those horrible Iron Ore places. A few weeks ago I had to go to our ship loading facility and had to put up with this.
Terrible, isnt it.


Tassie in the middle of winter isnt too bad, eh. Even for an Iron Ore plant.


----------



## jlm (27/8/14)

If I had my wetsuit over here this week I'd seriously be considering getting in the water for abs.......Its shorts weather.

Will be out your way late Sep........Got some friends who've just moved there (guess where they're from.......more from the QLD) so when I've got the dates I'll let you know. Get a keg ready for the hand pump.


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## bradsbrew (27/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The funny thing is that the Gov is now paying 3rd party "organisations" to " manage" apprentices....
> 
> 
> What a ******* joke


Stu, still quite a few apprentices going through the public sector, obviously a lot less than back in your day because the govt has sold off a lot of its depts, what are these 3rd party apprentice management organisations that the govt are paying?


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## dago001 (27/8/14)

jlm said:


> Get a keg ready for the hand pump.


Funnily enough, just need a Fullers London Pride clone.


----------



## pedleyr (27/8/14)

I'm ******* jealous of you Tassie blokes, wish I could relocate there.

I know that the idea of people retiring to Tasmania may not be popular with you but I fully intend to, great place, great people. I hope the issues confronting the state can be sorted out.


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## pedleyr (27/8/14)

In 1979 there were 136,000 apprentices in Australia (source)
Population: 14.3 million (source)

In May 2012, there were 219,300 people aged 15–64 years who were employed as apprentices or trainees and part of the Australian Apprenticeship Scheme (source)
Population (June 2012): 22.6 million (source)

So, from 1979 to May 2012, there was a 61.25% increase in the number of apprentices.

Over only a one month longer period, the population increased by ~58%.

Anyone care to comment on the "apprenticeship issue" in light of some actual facts? Falsifiable statements would obviously be preferred.

I do say that my understanding is that the number of apprentices is on a current downward trend but within the usual range of fluctuation. Could the system be better? Perhaps, but its pretty interesting to see how gut feelings and anecdotal experiences stack up to actual facts.


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

bradsbrew said:


> Stu, still quite a few apprentices going through the public sector, obviously a lot less than back in your day because the govt has sold off a lot of its depts, what are these 3rd party apprentice management organisations that the govt are paying?


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

bradsbrew said:


> , what are these 3rd party apprentice management organisations that the govt are paying?


You really are out of the loop Brad


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

pedleyr said:


> In May 2012, there were 219,300 people aged 15–64 years who were employed as apprentices or trainees and part of the Australian Apprenticeship Scheme (source)


Nice manipulation of figures,,,,how many actual apprentices are there under the age of 22....


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## pedleyr (27/8/14)

Sorry what's your point? The figures are the figures, I quoted that from the source. 

The figures from 1979 are like for like best I can see. So I take it you have no comment on the actual facts?


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

What are the actual figures for apprenticeships, not the combined bullshit of " trainees"..


That is my point.


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## pedleyr (27/8/14)

Have to follow up here. Even if I or someone else did manipulate the figures there by specifying an age range (the same range as all employment and workforce participation age ranges mind you) what would it mean in context here? 

Unless you have something to suggest that there were a statistically significant number of apprentices aged outside of 15-64 in 1979 I'm genuinely lost as to what relevance your comment has. 

My view is that this vague manipulation accusation is a complete straw man on your part but I'm happy to hear you clarify.


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## pedleyr (27/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> What are the actual figures for apprenticeships, not the combined bullshit of " trainees"..
> 
> 
> That is my point.


OK well that's not what you said, thanks for clarifying. Can I ask if you've read the source? It contains a definition of what is included. 

Can you also clarify what your actual position is? Is it that there are fewer apprentices now than some earlier time?


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

What are the current figures for Apprecticeships. NOT traineeships

How do they compare to those of 10 years ago


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

pedleyr said:


> OK well that's not what you said, thanks for clarifying. Can I ask if you've read the source? It contains a definition of what is included.
> 
> Can you also clarify what your actual position is? Is it that there are fewer apprentices now than some earlier time?


how many actual apprentices are there under the age of 22....

Thats what I said


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

pedleyr said:


> OK well that's not what you said, thanks for clarifying. Can I ask if you've read the source? It contains a definition of what is included.


I actually did say that. Please read what I actually said, not what you thought I said


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## pedleyr (27/8/14)

Why does under the age of 22 matter? 

If the numbers overall have increased since 1979 then how does that not speak for itself? Unless there is anything to suggest that the age of apprentices has changed (and there isn't). 

From my source:

"In 2008, the definition for apprentices and trainees changed from those employed as apprentices/trainees to include only those with a formal contract under the Australian Apprenticeship Scheme. Therefore data on apprentices from previous years are not directly comparable to 2008 and subsequent data. Note that Australian School-based Apprenticeships are excluded."

From the glossary of the 2012 numbers - "An apprentice is a person aged 15–64 years who has entered into a legal contract (called a training agreement or contract of training) with an employer, to serve a period of training for the purpose of attaining tradesperson status in a recognised trade. In this survey, apprentices are identified by their answer to a question specifically pertaining to the Australian Apprenticeship Scheme. Note that Australian School-based Apprenticeships are excluded"

In short the numbers are probably slightly understated. 

If you think that definition doesn't encompass your concerns then can you clarify how it doesn't?


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

Have you tried to get an apprenticeship over the age of 22...


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## pedleyr (27/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I actually did say that. Please read what I actually said, not what you thought I said


You did after my first comment, but not before. But I'm not here to bicker over semantics, I'm happy to concede move on from that if it progresses the discussion on the relevant points.


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## Ducatiboy stu (27/8/14)

pedleyr said:


> Why does under the age of 22 matter?
> 
> If the numbers overall have increased since 1979 then how does that not speak for itself? Unless there is anything to suggest that the age of apprentices has changed (and there isn't).
> 
> ...


No manipluation of data there....


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## pedleyr (28/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Have you tried to get an apprenticeship over the age of 22...


I completely agree, but you realise that supports my data? That although technically a broader range is included, anecdotally the majority will be under 22. Moreover that doesn't even matter unless there is anything to suggest a change in age composition.


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/14)

so your saying......?


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## pedleyr (28/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> so your saying......?


I'm saying that the data unequivocally shows that in 2012 there were more apprentices than in 1979. What are you saying?

Could you clarify how you say the data is manipulated? Specifically could you also say how the definition of apprentice isn't satisfactory (if you think it isn't)?


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/8/14)

Sorry,....didnt realise that a trainee Barrista was lumped in with apprentice electricians, plumbers & builders..

My apologies for being ignorant


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## pedleyr (28/8/14)

Where does it say that? Is a Barista under the Australian Apprenticeships Scheme? (Genuine question because I actually don't know).

Are you going to actually say what your position is?


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## pedleyr (28/8/14)

For the record, Barista isn't on the list of what is included in the numbers I've quoted: http://www.australianapprenticeships.gov.au/national-skills-needs-list


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## bradsbrew (28/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You really are out of the loop Brad


So you got nothing to back up your statement? It was a genuine question. Are you talking about AAC's? I was just trying to clarify what you meant by third party. As I run an RTO that provides the vocational training for 500+ apprentices across 5 general construction trades, I would like to think I am kind of in the loop. 

Also I thought you were referring to apprentices employed by Govt departments?


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## philmud (28/8/14)

I reckon I'll relocate to Tassie in the next few years. My partner grew up in Blackmans Bay just south of Hobart & as much as I love Melbourne, I think Tassie would support the lifestyle we want more.


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## mje1980 (28/8/14)

LagerBomb said:


> My sentiments exactly jlm (we must catch up for our yearly beer, sooner rather than later)
> I work for one of those horrible Iron Ore places. A few weeks ago I had to go to our ship loading facility and had to put up with this.
> Terrible, isnt it.
> 
> ...



Would a fitter with 10 years shift maintenance experience in steel mills fit in at that big ore place?  . Beautiful spot mate


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## madpierre06 (28/8/14)

I know my original statement about the future of our trades industry was based purely on anecdotal pieces of information, some of which may have been tinged at times by beer and gathered whilst partaking of same. At times. A reminder that even if there be some degree of truth in an anecdotal statement, I probably should follow my own credo and rely on observations, experience and careful research of a subject. My soap box at times has the knack of bringing out opinions which aren't necessarily grounded in fact. That's the occupational hazard of being a conspiracy theorist, I guess. You're gonna be close to the mark in some things, you've just got to pick your moments.

Back OT.....some of the pictures I've seen here have reenergised my desire to get to Tassie one day, it looks bloody stunning. I was planning to move down there back in about '97 I think it was, I was working in a steel warehouse at Eagle Farm and we had summer heat non stop from October through to April and if I could have found work down there I was gone!!!

Aside from the fly fishing aspect, can any Tassie boys tell me what the fishing is liike down there? And is it accessible (the good rock type stuff, I mean)?

And is there any work in counselling or disability down there? Current experience and studying.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (28/8/14)

@madpierre06

Tassie is stunning and the weather is fantastic. Winters are lots of fun with a short trip to snow somewhere and fireplaces, summer is gorgeous, swim worthy but not oppressive heat.
And anything you want pretty much grows here, the soil is fantastic. Fishing I've heard is good, someone I know has a freezer filled with brown trout.

But.....



It is difficult to get a job or move jobs if the people you work for or with aren't crash hot.
Your work collegues will hate you, treat you as an outsider, talk about you behind your back and you'll never get into their inner sanctum.
Extrapolate that out for the majority of the population where I live and work (AHBers the _massive_ exception - there are some fantastic AHB blokes living here) - anti-mainlander sentiment runs high in some places
Everything is expensive - even if it's grown in Tassie (carrots, apples, beer, salmon grown in tassie is cheaper in Brisvegas, than here - thus destroying the "it's the cost of shipping" furphy)
The majority of the population _cannot_ afford to live the 'Gourmet Farmer' lifestyle that telly says is fantastic about Tassie - because most food is expensive (especially the gourmet stuff), most live on Doritos and coke, because it's cheaper and more plentiful than fresh food.
If you like good, non-Anglo food to eat out, forget it.


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## niftinev (28/8/14)

> Don't think all the steel coming out of China is a throwback to Mao's Great Leap Forward with peasants smelting the stuff in coal fired clay furnaces out in the paddock. The Bluescope plants in Shanghai for one are as advanced as anything here, as its the product. Any structural steel used here is (or at least should be) backed by test certificates, metallurgist reports and a host of other 'signing off' nit picking. Thats part of the problem. Its an equally good product at a cheaper price.
> Remember the old axiom 'Jap crap'? These days, 'Made in Japan' is almost the gold standard for reliable, precision equipment. From my Hilux (though it was assembled in Indoneisa..) to my D7000 Nikon and its disturbingly expensive lenses, basically the most high end stuff I own comes from Japan.
> 
> I'd wager we'll be saying the same thing about 'That Chinese made shit' in a few years also.
> ...


I remember the jap crap stuff but there is a difference, ethics and copyright of which is few and far between in china and as far as certificates they just print them for you if needed
plenty of the big companies have had there fingers burnt
look at some of the so called colourbond steel roofs around here pretty easy to see the diff. and look at one steel in Rooty Hill got burnt when they imported structural steel from china big time, and that is probably why it's still operational and not shut down
one day they will get there but when anyone can copy anything someone else makes there will always be probs. and as far as quality the answer is it's only made to last a couple of years so you wont get it
they've still got a long way to go before they reach the jap stuff, at a guess i'de say 30 or so but where will the Japanese stuff be then?

come on Dave your not saying there hops are shit are you I thought theye'd be No1

anyway Dave enough of this shit you can have all the china crap and i'll get mine from elsewhere if possible


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## shaunous (28/8/14)

bradsbrew said:


> So you got nothing to back up your statement? It was a genuine question. Are you talking about AAC's? I was just trying to clarify what you meant by third party. As I run an RTO that provides the vocational training for 500+ apprentices across 5 general construction trades, I would like to think I am kind of in the loop.
> 
> Also I thought you were referring to apprentices employed by Govt departments?


Im guessing his referring to the 'apprenticeship employment companies' who there is hundreds of now that take on people to find them an apprenticeship, in which the employer pays the apprenticeship company figures of $35/hr and the apprentice gets $12/hr. All for the sake of the employer being able to legally tell the apprentice to 'piss off, your useless/we have no work/i dont like paying that apprenticeship company double your actual wage' and then the apprenticeship company is stuck with them again.


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## bradsbrew (28/8/14)

shaunous said:


> Im guessing his referring to the 'apprenticeship employment companies' who there is hundreds of now that take on people to find them an apprenticeship, in which the employer pays the apprenticeship company figures of $35/hr and the apprentice gets $12/hr. All for the sake of the employer being able to legally tell the apprentice to 'piss off, your useless/we have no work/i dont like paying that apprenticeship company double your actual wage' and then the apprenticeship company is stuck with them again.


But the govt does not pay Group Training Organisations to "manage" apprentices. They get incentives as does the average employer. Yes there is some extra funding but it is not for what Stu is implying. The new Further education and training act 2014 has taken the "protection" away from apprentices, it now allows employers to terminate employment as long as it meets IR standards, so in other words DETE has put the responsibility back to fair work. The apprentice can also walk away as long as they notify as per IR.


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## Not For Horses (28/8/14)

That's a bit bleak LRG.
I do agree with a lot but it is still a bit dark compared to my experience.

First off, I'm a first generation Tasmanian.
I agree that there is some 'bloody mainlanders' sentiment but in my experience, certainly in the circles I am involved in, it's along much the same lines as the whole two headed Tasmanian banter. This obviously sounds different for you but I don't feel it's representative of the entire population.
It possibly originates from property booms that have occurred here periodically in the past, often sparked by mainland investment.
As you said though, some places.

Food in Tas can be interesting. But also in other places too. When I worked in Townsville, during banana season, bananas were the same price in the supermarket there as they were back home. 2500km south of where they are grown. But I was smart. I bought mine from the grower. 5 for a 1 $. And yes, that is how the sign was written. I also picked mangoes by the road side, which were also the same price in the supermarket there as back home. It's the same with apples here.
Seafood is an economy of scale issue. I was talking to a calamari fisherman a few weeks back. I can't remember the exact amount he said now but he sends something like a tonne in a week to the fish markets in Melbourne. Tassie places were then buying it back from those same markets.
I suspect it is much the same for salmon.
Tasmanian wine is an interesting one too. I bet you didn't realise that quite a lot of Tasmanian wine, especially from the big producers, is shipped to Melbourne in 20000L tanks, bottled, then some of it sent back.

The beauty about Tassie is that you are never too far away from the people that grow the stuff and if you know how to look, you will find it.
I occasionally get oysters fresh off the boat for $7 a dozen. My cider apples this year cost me a grand total of $100 for 200kg. There's a guy about 20min away from my place that will sell you half a pig for about 4 bucks a kilo. I was at the market a few weeks back and there was a guy in full Holden Racing attire inquiring about the benefits of grass fed beef with the farmer.
Tasmanians have a pretty good connection to their food. Just not everybody knows about it yet.

Fine dining? Well you've got a very good point there. Sure we don't have Aria and we don't have Flower Drum and we don't have Tetsuyas. But ask Tetsuya what he thinks of Tasmanian produce.
We actually have some amazing restaurants here utilizing all of that good produce. Just not the same standard but understandable given that we just don't have the population base to support it during seasonal fluctuations.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (28/8/14)

Fair call. I've always said and continue to say, that tassie produce is awesome. It's just getting it.....

The problem is that 'unless you know someone who knows someone' - getting that produce and meat is pretty damn difficult. We bought a big freezer anticipating this, and just couldn't get the $4/kg pig. If you ask and you're a mainlander, they clam up.

The fruit and veg, when you can get it - is awesome (so long as it's not woolies) - and you know you've been here long enough when you have a 'favourite potato' (Dutch Cream for me). We have a local guy that supports the farmers, not cheap, but great F&V. But we live close to a helluva lot of farms and thought "let's see if they have that sort of fruit and veg" - it's a bit patchy and not something reliable enough to feed a family of 6 regularly - probably because a fair chunk of it ends up at simplot. One whole paddock of cauliflower was left to be eaten by sheep and then rot, because Simplot deemed it not good enough to package, but don't sell it to the shops as seconds.

If you own a couple of acres and can raise your own F&V, animals and the like (Gourmet farmer style) - then awesome. If you live in suburban block, you'll raise some veg, but getting cheap meat is impossible (the rump steak at IGA being an exception).

As for Mainlander 'freeze-out' - big issue in this part. Hobart is nice and more open-minded but in this neck of the woods, you feel pretty isolated - whether it's work, school, shops, neighbours, community at large. It's not the 'two-headed' 'bloody mainlander' ha ha, we pay each other out (I avoid making those jokes in order not to offend). It's full on prejudice. I suggest that Launceston, being big enough doesn't have that same issue and maybe if we'd docked at Launnie or Ho-town, our experience would be different.

We don't 'fine dine' - but if we want sushi/sashimi or some good Thai - yeah, you can get "Japanese" in the form of the Bento chain and "asian cafe" food - but not good stuff. The economically depressed state of Tassie makes it hard to function (Crumb Street kitchen lasted 2 months in Devonport) as a restaurant, given the fine margins, but man alive I could murder a bowl of ramen.


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## pcmfisher (28/8/14)

niftinev said:


> I remember the jap crap stuff but there is a difference, ethics and copyright of which is few and far between in china and as far as certificates they just print them for you if needed
> plenty of the big companies have had there fingers burnt
> look at some of the so called colourbond steel roofs around here pretty easy to see the diff. and look at one steel in Rooty Hill got burnt when they imported structural steel from china big time, and that is probably why it's still operational and not shut down
> one day they will get there but when anyone can copy anything someone else makes there will always be probs. and as far as quality the answer is it's only made to last a couple of years so you wont get it
> ...


It may not take 30 years.
Look at the Korean cars. Kia and Hyundai have gone from pieces of shit even 10-15 years ago to better cars than we make in Australia now, and we have been trying for 60 years.

And Dave is right about the Japanese. They have forgotten more about making cars than the rest of the world put together knows.


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## dago001 (28/8/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> <p>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not having a Crack at you LRG, but it not as bad as you make it out to be. We generally don't have the population to support a lot of restaurants. The majority of the state is still rural, with rural attitudes that reflect this. There is diversity in Hobart and some in Launceston. Launceston has one of the best craft beer bars I have been in.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (28/8/14)

LagerBomb said:


> Not having a Crack at you LRG, but it not as bad as you make it out to be. We generally don't have the population to support a lot of restaurants. The majority of the state is still rural, with rural attitudes that reflect this. There is diversity in Hobart and some in Launceston. Launceston had one of the best craft beer bars I have been in.


No worries mate, I'm not taking it personally and when I said some amazing AHB members in Tassie :wub: :icon_cheers:

And as I said in the other thread - I reckon Crown Cellars is one of the best craft beer bottle-os in the country and there is more craft beer bars per capita than just about anywhere else. The food is amazing (though often expensive) and tastes better than anywhere else on the Mainland (heck, I'd never tried fresh raspberries like they grow here until I moved here). The air is amazingly clean and smells fantasic, and I reckon it's easily the prettiest place in the country (I was driving back from Burnie yesterday along the Bass highway - ah-mazing), and one of the prettiest in the world.

But from my experience, it's a difficult place to live in when you're not from around here and I reckon that it would be a lot different if you're a local.

It was funny when I was researching before we moved here - there were polar opposite stories, some saying how amazing the move was, some worse than what I said in terms of feeling 'left out'. Such a small place can deliver such vastly different experiences.

I've sung Tassie's praises to mainland friends (who have come and contributed to the economy) as a tourist destination and it is fantastic for that. But, as growing up on the Sunshine Coast taught me, a place that is fantastic to visit as a tourist isn't the same as living there (good or bad or in between).

I suppose I'm trying to be even handed in my approach, unlike @OP. Yeah, fantastic stuff, but don't expect perfection, there are faults - as there are where I'm headed (back). Not looking forward to traffic and pollution again.


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## Dave70 (28/8/14)

I have personally experienced none of the thinly veiled tribalism or prejudice toward 'mainlanders' hinted at in these threads by native Tasmanians. 
Based on the fact I had sex (consensual, mind you) on several occasions with a mates cousin who was up on holiday from Rose Bay. 
Survey size. 1. 
Attitudes may have changed since 1994 however.


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## mje1980 (28/8/14)

Dave, are you aware your post contains the words "Tasmanians", "sex", and "cousin". 






















Just sayin


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## Feldon (28/8/14)

Dave70 said:


> Attitudes may have changed since 1994 however.


1996 was the watershed year for Tasmanian xenophobia. Just ask Martin Bryant.


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## Dave70 (28/8/14)

Feldon said:


> 1996 was the watershed year for Tasmanian xenophobia. Just ask Martin Bryant.


As 1994 was a watershed year for sodomy.


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## Dave70 (28/8/14)

mje1980 said:


> Dave, are you aware your post contains the words "Tasmanians", "sex", and "cousin".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah well, we were both pretty drunk.
And she was hot.
Probably wouldn't do it again though..


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## Blind Dog (28/8/14)

What? Have sex or get drunk?


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## Dave70 (28/8/14)

Tends to be interchangeable.


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## TasChris (28/8/14)

Dave70 said:


> As 1994 was a watershed year for sodomy.


for you or your mates cousin?


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## jimmy86 (28/8/14)

This thread turned into a reenactment of Monty Pythons meaning of life.
I'm just waiting for the "what about the fish scene" haha


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## spog (28/8/14)

LagerBomb said:


> My sentiments exactly jlm (we must catch up for our yearly beer, sooner rather than later)
> I work for one of those horrible Iron Ore places. A few weeks ago I had to go to our ship loading facility and had to put up with this.
> Terrible, isnt it.
> 
> ...


The missus and I love Tassie,but Port Lincoln isn't so bad
.


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## bradsbrew (28/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Have you tried to get an apprenticeship over the age of 22...


Stu, maybe you should research portable apprenticeships for over 21 year olds. Coming to a state near you! Another QLD initiative.


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## Dave70 (29/8/14)

TasChris said:


> for you or your mates cousin?


Oddly the law never applied to women. So I guess that's just how those small town girls roll.



Goodness me, not gone 8:00 am and already into the anal humor..
Should be a good day.


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## Bridges (29/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Have you tried to get an apprenticeship over the age of 22...


I started my apprenticeship at age 22 turned 23 in the first year. I sat down with the yellow pages and started at A. Half a day later I had a job with a company that started with B. 
In my time with that company (over ten years in total) all the best apprentices were had were over 20 had done year 12 and were wiling to work. All the worst were 18 or younger and were not interested and wouldn't work. Sample size of only 9 apprentices but 5 were 22 or older when they started with us.
Basically I reckon you need to have worked a shit job to appreciate a good one, most older apprentices have worked a shit job and can see how great an opportunity an apprenticeship is.


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## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/14)

bradsbrew said:


> Stu, maybe you should research portable apprenticeships for over 21 year olds. Coming to a state near you! Another QLD initiative.


Adult apprenticeships are amazingly hard to get....


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## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/14)

<------


----------



## Camo6 (29/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Adult apprenticeships are amazingly hard to get....



...with a small company or tradesman who's after cheap labour for four years. However, any large company whose focus is on quality of work and not on saving a few hundred bucks a week often prefer someone with more experience, motivation and responsibility. The thing is, most companies nowadays will only accept candidates who have completed a pre-apprenticeship. A costless way of separating the wheat from the chaff I guess.


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## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/14)

Camo6 said:


> However, any large company whose focus is on quality of work and not on saving a few hundred bucks a week often prefer someone with more experience, motivation and responsibility.


Which is not common


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## Camo6 (29/8/14)

Unfortunately, nor is common sense.


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## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/14)

Bridges said:


> Basically I reckon you need to have worked a shit job to appreciate a good one,


Indeed. And that rings true right throughout your working life, not just as an apprentice

A lot of the young blokes now just dont give a shit, but the ones that do are like gold. And I will go out of my way to teach them what I know, if they want to learn

In some ways, adult apprenticeships are not the answer, as it can lead to younger school leavers being disillusioned. Its the old adage from even when I did my appreticeship, ......why work for shit money doing shit jobs when you can work at McD's for more money...and half price burgers...


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## Ducatiboy stu (29/8/14)

Camo6 said:


> Unfortunately, nor is common sense.


Which you dont need to become an OH&S nazi.....


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## dago001 (30/8/14)

I'm a big believer of giving apprenticeships to school leavers, while a lot of my work mates are all for adult apprentices. I started as a school leaver, and although I wasnt mature enough to really be at work, I soon learned my way in life. An apprenticeship back then certainly put you in your place. My employer normally employs one adult and one school leaver apprentice every 1 to 2 years. I agree the adults are easier to train and make bigger inroads into their apprenticeship, but the school leavers have got to have a place to start. Its just laziness on a tradesmans part if he opts for the easier option of training an adult.
We have had a few duds come through, but they are normally gone pretty quickly. I love the challenge of taking a fresh and untrained person, and molding them into a tradesman. Some of our adult apprentices are already stuck in bad habits or ideals, that we will never be able to change. The difference these days is that kids leave school and still expect to be treated the same as they are at school. Its a big world out there. Some never adapt, but those that do turn into top quality tradesmen.


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## Camo6 (30/8/14)

Yeah I do agree with what your saying and in over 15 years in automotive I've only ever trained junior apprentices. The reason for that though is they are cheap and they're is not too many adults foolish enough to enter this industry late.
The problem with a lot of large workshops nowadays is the rate of tradesman to apprentice is lower and you then get a bunch of kids together without enough supervision and they come to the end of their time with sweet FA knowledge. Well this is my experience anyway but I suspect its a completely different game in the building industry.
But I need to believe in mature age apprentices because at the moment I'm trying to become one!


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## dago001 (30/8/14)

Good luck with the apprenticeship Camo6.
We dont treat our young apprentices as cheap labour. They all have to do the same work, so maybe the adult ones are expensive labour. The one down side of adult apprentices is that they often come with baggage from the "shit" jobs they have done before. Quite often we are trying to get rid of bad work habits that they have brought with them. With school leavers we get the chance to develop the good work practices from the start.
I worked it the Auto industry for a few years as a career change (worked as a service adviser for Mitsubishi and Subaru). I was appalled at the rates the tradesmen were paid, relying on bonuses to make a half decent wage. The one thing that helped their wages improve was the mining boom, as a lot of auto mech left for the mines and the money. We had to up the rates to keep mechanics. I left not long after, due to the pay, 50 hour weeks for $32000/year - no thanks. There are only a few people making money in the car indsustry, and it aint the mechanics.


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## Camo6 (30/8/14)

Cheers LB.
Yeah, the wages are the biggest let down in that game. As a senior tech on the floor I could make as much if not more than the advisors who were working from 7am to 6pm and dealing with irate customers all day. I can't see it improving in the near future. Cars are getting more complicated but its becoming a supply and fit industry where untrained TA's replace components under instruction. I know of one place that employs 2 master techs and the rest of the workshop are award rate trade assistants without any qualifications. But it is what it is and while I love working on cars it ain't gonna secure my future. Just wish I made the move 10 years ago but I'm still a ways off 70!
And to stay on topic, I love Tasmania and can't wait to visit again. Except for Queenstown, that place was kinda spooky.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

I tend to agree that good tradesmen dont get the pay they deserve, its sad to see the person in the office getting the same as you and they sit in a nice airconditioned office and doesnt get filthy dirty and have to work in some really shit conditions. It takes years to become a proficient tradesperson, way more than the 4 yrs you do as an apprentice, you do as much, if not more training and skilling than some of those that go to Uni. Of course the skill sets are different, and a Doctor will always earn more than a mechanic, and for some, Uni just isnt for them.


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## pk.sax (30/8/14)

Some people are paid to think, some are paid to do. Take it as you may, but there are far fewer thinkers than doers. And I don't mean the ones that sit in an aircon office and tick boxes. That's supply and demand for you, the bloke working out the business program is gonna take a cut off each worker's product, typically the better ones will manage more product and take a larger cut. It doesn't mean the worker shouldn't get paid more if he/she works harder but the tradesman's bargaining power is weaker because there are more of them, how many ways are you gonna split that pie!
After a while in any business running it's course though the office workers are just bean counters for the most part.

I suppose this is all part of the bigger problem/s but can't see how it impacts so much on the future of forests and minimising clearfell in Tasmania.


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## Camo6 (30/8/14)

practicalfool said:


> I suppose this is all part of the bigger problem/s but can't see how it impacts so much on the future of forests and minimising clearfell in Tasmania.


Yeah, c'mon bribie. Hurry up and start the "Tradesmen are a pack of cnuts" thread!


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## dago001 (30/8/14)

We don't clear fell except for plantation forests, which are planned for that reason. Selective logging is what it is ask about. The notion that we just go in and chop down forests is nothing but pure propaganda. Selective logging had been going on for a long time, and supplies the toner industry, not the wood chip industry.


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## billygoat (30/8/14)

Camo6 said:


> Yeah, c'mon bribie. Hurry up and start the "Tradesmen are a pack of cnuts" thread!


He's already had a whinge about Australian tradesmen, he has had a whinge about most things.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

Well...he is a Pom..and not a Tradesman.


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## jlm (30/8/14)

billygoat said:


> He's already had a whinge about Australian tradesmen, he has had a whinge about most things.


Yeah....had it in my mind somewhere he's done that already. If only everything was like northern pomgolia 50 yrs ago.


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## Elz (30/8/14)

So lets pick on someones ethnicity, that pretty a constructive way to advance the argument


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

or put a on a fatwa


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## Elz (30/8/14)

Against all the bigoted people living in Aus, not a bad idea.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

Could you issue that many....?


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## Blind Dog (30/8/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> or put a on a fatwa


He's not fat


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## Elz (30/8/14)

full acceptability towards wannabe Aussies (fatwa): not a bad an ideology


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## jlm (30/8/14)

Elz said:


> So lets pick on someones ethnicity, that pretty a constructive way to advance the argument


Welcome to the conversation. 

In the words of Mohandas Gandhi "He started it".

But why stop at an ethnicity.......check out the whinging pom's "Problem with the way australian women speak" thread (or something along those lines) that recently popped up in the off topic forum. Riveting stuff. Didn't see you pop up with with your SJW opinion then?

Or the times when I (and he) have been modded when I've called out his racist bullshit, intentional or not (Why can't Rolf Harris sing his original lines to "Tie me kangaroo down sport"? Why?). Or when (memorably for me) I got some solid opinions from my wife who works with disabled kids about a very stupid pic he put up in the no topic thread. Replied with said facts, and.....basically got modded again.

But when someone made some disparaging comments to one of his mates via PM a few years ago about how old people shouldn't be able to use the internet.....**** me was there a stink, whinging pom left the forum and all (for roughly 10 minutes). Agism at work!!!

If you're going to dish it out (and this is all no topic stuff......doesn't affect the meat and bones of the forum in any real manner), you'd better be able to take it. And lately there's been a lot of cut and paste TUMBLR style activism from gramps about where I live, spouting opinions about shit he has no real idea about. So pardon me for making what can be perceived as a bigoted reply to someone who's comfortable making bigoted/racist/misoginist remarks online at will.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

You blokes got modded...


There is hope for me yet... h34r:


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## jlm (30/8/14)

I know stu.....I seem so nice.......but I'm actually a vindictive prick with a really good memory.


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## Not For Horses (30/8/14)

Sort of like an evil elephant?


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## Elz (30/8/14)

Yeah yeah my dads bigger then your dad and sticks and stone wont break my bones! Does this really warrant a valid view for the society we live in, haven't we moved past this mindset? i am aware that many on this forum view the world from a black and white perspective; but many of us see any form of racism as an " unAustralian" (friggin love/hate that term). Really not acceptable in any form. Mods really lacking in pulling people up on this forum; taking the piss NOT an acceptable point of view
Cheers
Elz


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## Elz (30/8/14)

Point of view... If it relates to racism


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

jlm said:


> I know stu.....I seem so nice.......but I'm actually a vindictive prick with a really good memory.


looks like I better get my shit together then...


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## jlm (30/8/14)

Elz said:


> Yeah yeah my dads bigger then your dad and sticks and stone wont break my bones! Does this really warrant a valid view for the society we live in, haven't we moved past this mindset? i am aware that many on this forum view the world from a black and white perspective; but many of us see any form of racism as an " unAustralian" (friggin love/hate that term). Really not acceptable in any form. Mods really lacking in pulling people up on this forum; taking the piss NOT an acceptable point of view
> Cheers
> Elz


To answer you question you've posed.........No (in my opinion). You can deal with it your way, I'll do it with mine, even though calling out a privileged white male on his bullshit gets your hackles up. Pipe up a bit more on the issues that get your goat (perhaps you could have been used here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/81924-women/).


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

Elz said:


> Taking the piss NOT an acceptable point of view


I dont know about that....Just ask Tod Carney


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## jlm (30/8/14)

Ha. I think myself and the 4 NSWmen down here got that one. Did elicit a LOL though.


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## bradsbrew (30/8/14)

Is saying someone is unAustralian racism?


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

bloody unAustralian racists....


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## pk.sax (30/8/14)

Are Australian racists not bloody?


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## Camo6 (30/8/14)

Elz said:


> So lets pick on someones ethnicity, that pretty a constructive way to advance the argument


Seriously? To add that comment now in a thread full of insinuations of two-headedness, incestuous relations and general, good hearted, ribbing? You must be a Pom, yeah?
Bribie Q starts threads like these to incite discussion ( and some would say argument) and rarely involves himself further. A necessary evil. Kinda like the annoying chick on The Bachelor ( some of your partners must watch this) that you'd be mad to like but makes the show more interesting. For someone to state the fact that he is a Pom is hardly being racist, more like having a go at the screws. They did send us here after all....
Yes, Australia is a racist nation but name one that wasn't in some point of its history. The only difference is the rate of change. Personally, (my mother emigrated here on a boat without knowing a word of English) I think this country is adapting extremely quickly to cultural change...mostly.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

Personaly, I dont think Australia is an overtly racist nation, despite populist media opinion...and I dont think the current political situation is helping things.

Out of all the people I have met over the years, very, very rarely have I met a true racist...


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## Elz (30/8/14)

some of the comments stated by others, on this forum would get me sacked from a position where I am employed in a public health position. Do these narrowed views trouble me, hell yes. However, free speech is great, as is the individuals point of view (along with piss taking) Bring it on... ... This subtle racist shite pisses me off. And bradshaw what is the point of your comment, posting a comment as a question is a fairly weak point of view, are all mods this meek?


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## bradsbrew (30/8/14)

Elz said:


> So lets pick on someones ethnicity, that pretty a constructive way to advance the argument





Elz said:


> Against all the bigoted people living in Aus, not a bad idea.





Elz said:


> full acceptability towards wannabe Aussies (fatwa): not a bad an ideology





Elz said:


> Yeah yeah my dads bigger then your dad and sticks and stone wont break my bones! Does this really warrant a valid view for the society we live in, haven't we moved past this mindset? i am aware that many on this forum view the world from a black and white perspective; but many of us see any form of racism as an " unAustralian" (friggin love/hate that term). Really not acceptable in any form. Mods really lacking in pulling people up on this forum; taking the piss NOT an acceptable point of view
> Cheers
> Elz





Elz said:


> some of the comments stated by others, on this forum would get me sacked from a position where I am employed in a public health position. Do these narrowed views trouble me, hell yes. However, free speech is great, as is the individuals point of view (along with piss taking) Bring it on... ... This subtle racist shite pisses me off. And bradshaw what is the point of your comment, posting a comment as a question is a fairly weak point of view, are all mods this meek?


Speaking of name calling and segregation of community members.

Wasn't a weak point of view in my opinion. Each time I hear/read someone say its un(insert country of choice), I have a little chuckle to myself. I often think of Tim Minchin. And to answer your question, nah its only me that's a meer cat, simples.


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## jlm (30/8/14)

Comments in this thread? If so lets get 'em highlighted and bought out for everyone to view. 

If me calling a whinging bigoted **** (who I've actually drank a beer with.....a rare experience with the internets opinion on things) a whinging bigoted **** is your example of the greater racist issues you have with the forum, you should look a lot harder than this thread.


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## philmud (30/8/14)

Can we not call pejorative comments about presumably Caucasian Englishmen racist? Racism occurs where there is an institutional power imbalance between ethnicities.
Offensive it may be, racist it is not.


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## Elz (30/8/14)

Hey jim, its not about you. Humans, any humans and all people are to be treated with respect. Chipping away at human rights because you know the person is still unacceptable. I have had a beer with my best mate who happens to be gay, does that give me the right to call all gay people a pejorative name ok, i dont think so. Anyway probably time to move on, had my say, stated my point and here for learning about beer (stating my political bias is actually a bonus).
Heres to all things good in Tassie including their craft beer and sustainable forestry.
Cheers
Elz


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## philmud (30/8/14)

Elz said:


> I have had a beer with my best mate who happens to be gay, does that give me the right to call all gay people a pejorative name ok, i dont think so.


In terms of structural disadvantage, being English and being gay aren't comparable.


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## Elz (30/8/14)

Yes and no. But how about being English and gay, or english and muslim, or english black or english and1/2 Irish etc. a slippery slope and structral disadvantage has f all to do with it. Structural disadvantage is not limited to the typical view of the english but typical runs deeper then a modernist view


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## pk.sax (30/8/14)

I was actually wondering yesterday (wearing a purple shirt), out for a walk after work - do sex changed people prefer trans-sexual or trans-gender as a term? I mean, the whole acronym GLBTYP (or something like that) doesn't quite explain it.

Anyway, even if they preffered one over the other does that matter! There is always a flavour of the month of something to be offended by.

I do have a gay friend or two (maybe some I don't know about). I did once really piss off some lesbo without being whatsoever offensive, that was hilarious in retrospect. There is something to be said about honesty, if being politically correct equates being dishonest then **** that. Change your attitude inside Elz, if you are sprouting flowers and and don't mean any of it you're just a plain old hypocrite.


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## goomboogo (30/8/14)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dw_mRaIHb-M


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## Elz (30/8/14)

Thanks for the advice praticalfool, but i am 100 percent at ease with my attitude. Served me well so far and unwilling to change because it upsets some. Respect for humanity is something i am unwilling to steer away from.


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## philmud (30/8/14)

Elz said:


> Yes and no. But how about being English and gay, or english and muslim, or english black or english and1/2 Irish etc. a slippery slope and structral disadvantage has f all to do with it. Structural disadvantage is not limited to the typical view of the english but typical runs deeper then a modernist view


But those variables you refer to (Muslim, black, Irish) are further examples of structural disadvantage, so it has everything to do with it . The "whinging Pom" stereotype applies to Anglo-Saxon Protestant Englishmen. I can see how someone in that demographic might be offended by it, but I'll reserve my sympathy for victims if racism for whom the impact is more than hurt feelings. Like Mike Brown.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

practicalfool said:


> - do sex changed people prefer trans-sexual or trans-gender as a term? I mean, the whole acronym GLBTYP (or something like that) doesn't quite explain it.


The ones I have met are just happy being called by there first name....


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## Elz (30/8/14)

So you are saying that 'these people' aren't english. These variables do not make your ethnicity. Is a white english person whose religion is islam not also pom. point is you do not have to be white anglo blah blah blah to be considered a pom. Again its all the thin edge of the wedge, but an important concept to protect/argue for etc.


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## philmud (30/8/14)

Elz said:


> So you are saying that 'these people' aren't english.


No, I'm saying that the whinging Pom trope applies to a narrow range of English people. Generally not the black and/or Muslim ones. In the same way that the laconic but dumb Aussie trope doesn't apply to Australians of Vietnamese ethnicity. They're no less Australian, just not part of that particular stereotype. 

Also, you realise that ethnicity and nationality are not always the same thing, right? Most English Muslims are not ethnically "English".


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## Elz (30/8/14)

bites tongue.. Time ...to...move...on... .last post on this subject, honestly! So your ethnicity is bound by your religion? News to me, i thought it is how person associates their individual ethnicity and how it relates to there nationality. Not bound by religion. Is Tony Abbott a Catholic or an Aussie? I pretty sure most would say Aussie ( maybe other adjectives also come to mind) Enjoy your night, nearly half way through the bottle of Turkey!!!
Cheers all
Elz


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

Elz said:


> . Is Tony Abbott a Catholic or an Aussie? I pretty sure most would say Aussie ( maybe other adjectives also come to mind)


Yeah.....you could take " CaTholic or aN aUssie"........and work out what he is.......just saying....

Dont want to upset his fan club, small as it may be....someone likes him


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## Blind Dog (30/8/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> But those variables you refer to (Muslim, black, Irish) are further examples of structural disadvantage, so it has everything to do with it . The "whinging Pom" stereotype applies to Anglo-Saxon Protestant Englishmen. I can see how someone in that demographic might be offended by it, but I'll reserve my sympathy for victims if racism for whom the impact is more than hurt feelings. Like Mike Brown.


Was just about to get really offended, but remembered I'm an atheist. Phew


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## philmud (30/8/14)

If you're going to bite your tongue, then bite it. If you're going to keep talking shit, then don't pretend you're not. Ethnicity, nationality and religion are three separate things. Tony Abbott is both Australian, Catholic and ethnically Anglo/Celtic/Saxon (unsure exactly). I reckon the half a bottle of turkey hasn't done your powers of logic/reasoning any favours mate. I'd drink the rest slowly.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

Abbott is a boat person....and a Manly supporter......


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## philmud (30/8/14)

There's nothing sadder than a self-hating boat person.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

If it was good enough for him to arrive via boat......


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

The great thing about religion is there are so many to choose from.....and you can switch when ever you like.......bit harder with skin colour thought...


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## philmud (30/8/14)

Having visions of him leaping overboard & swimming the last few hundred meters, then talking to the press in budgie-smugglers & a life-savers cap.


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## Blind Dog (30/8/14)

That was fun. 

Seriously shits me that anyone could equate calling anyone a whinging Pom with racism. I lose nothing when it's said to me, and it changes nothing. It doesn't even denote that the person saying it has anything less than respect. It's completely harmless, and certainly does not denote that the speaker considers themselves superior to me which in my book is the threshold for something to be racist (or any other ist)

And anyway, my iPad's predictive spelling keeps changing whinging Pom to whoring Pom. Which is nice.


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

Damn Bribie and his whoring...


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## goomboogo (30/8/14)

I'm not a Pom. But I am a whore.


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## philmud (30/8/14)

I'm sure they're not mutually exclusive.


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## pk.sax (30/8/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> Having visions of him leaping overboard & swimming the last few hundred meters, then talking to the press in budgie-smugglers & a life-savers cap.


Does your work offer free counselling for this sort of shit?


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

Prob cost an extra $7 to see a doctor to get a referal to a shrink....


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## Blind Dog (30/8/14)

Prince Imperial said:


> I'm sure they're not mutually exclusive.


theyre not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0lrQdFmL9U


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## philmud (30/8/14)

Actually they probably do.


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## spog (30/8/14)

Elz said:


> some of the comments stated by others, on this forum would get me sacked from a position where I am employed in a public health position. Do these narrowed views trouble me, hell yes. However, free speech is great, as is the individuals point of view (along with piss taking) Bring it on... ... This subtle racist shite pisses me off. And bradshaw what is the point of your comment, posting a comment as a question is a fairly weak point of view, are all mods this meek?


" some of the comments sated by others,on this forum.."
Yes it is a forum ,a public forum ,the same as any form of speech in public if you are offended or take offence then walk away .
Have others here had an issue with what I have posted ,yep.
Have I had any issue with what others have posted,yep
Ahh the joys of being a willing participant of a public forum,any public forum,but I am not married to any of them so at the end of the day I cease giving a ****!
As for subtle racist shite,**** that as well ,I worked with a black fella years back,he drove an orange car and I told him he looked like a Jaffa in it,he told me to get fucked and called me a white Captian Cook **** .
Give and take is what life is all about,accept it and get on with it....life that is.


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## spog (30/8/14)

Gotta love this public forum shit,this topic started as a **** Tassie thread and has gone onto a **** everybody and everything thread.

Any way I'm going to sleep now,night night ya bunch of whinging racist drunken wankers .


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## Ducatiboy stu (30/8/14)

spog said:


> Ahh the joys of being a willing participant of a public forum,any public forum,but I am not married to any of them so at the end of the day I cease giving a ****!


Hearing you there brother.....If those I upset think I give a **** when I log off..well....good luck to them....


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## Blind Dog (30/8/14)

spog said:


> Gotta love this public forum shit,this topic started as a **** Tassie thread and has gone onto a **** everybody and everything thread.


tis a beautiful thing


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## Donske (31/8/14)

Elz said:


> Hey jim, its not about you. *Humans, any humans and all people are to be treated with respect*. Chipping away at human rights because you know the person is still unacceptable. I have had a beer with my best mate who happens to be gay, does that give me the right to call all gay people a pejorative name ok, i dont think so. Anyway probably time to move on, had my say, stated my point and here for learning about beer (stating my political bias is actually a bonus).
> Heres to all things good in Tassie including their craft beer and sustainable forestry.
> Cheers
> Elz





Elz said:


> Thanks for the advice praticalfool, but i am 100 percent at ease with my attitude. Served me well so far and unwilling to change because it upsets some.* Respect for humanity is something i am unwilling to steer away from.*


Really? All humans? I know political correctness and all that "please don't sue me" shit is in vogue right now but saying all humans deserve respect is a ******* crock, I am tempted to Godwin* this thread but I'm enjoying the more reasonable posts and hoping it continues for a while, though I suspect you've already killed it with this shit.



Prince Imperial said:


> There's nothing sadder than a self-hating boat person.


Haha, yeah, my old man rocked up by boat in the 70s, 40 years later he's calling for the boats to be sunk, he's a whinging bloody pom too though.

*For those unsure of the Godwin reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


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## philmud (31/8/14)

Donske said:


> ... I am tempted to Godwin* this thread...


You Mods are just like the SS...


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## Ducatiboy stu (31/8/14)

I have no respect for the following humans

* Rapists
* Child Molestors
* Serial Killers


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## Feldon (31/8/14)

Meanwhile, in Tasmania far, far away, a craft brewer tries to make a difference (and a long lost thread is dragged back on topic) ...

Scottsdale: a Tasmanian town in the throes of change


_As Tasmania’s first Liberal state budget in 16 years is handed down, nationwide questions of regional revival are brought into sharp focus for one small town_


It’s 9am and George Gray is loading a pipe from his tobacco pouch outside JoDonny’s café in Scottsdale, the heart of the Dorset region in north-east Tasmania. The retired farmer and widower from Western Australia packed up his life and moved here a month ago. He loves his new views of rolling green hills with their distinctive chocolate paddocks, described as the best soil on the island by James Scott, first surveyor of the town in 1855. 

Gray is fitting in nicely here with his flannelette shirt, peaked cap and English accent, breakfasting in town every morning. Tonight he’ll dine around the corner at Kendall’s Hotel.

Just up the road, it’s “brew day” for Chris Carins at Little Rivers Brewing Company, the north-east’s first microbrewery, housed in an old shed that used to sell farm machinery. Out the back amid the smell of hops, steam is rising from a vat that Carins designed himself to save on startup costs. Eventually the shop front will be transformed into a cellar door. Carins says it will attract the caravans going past the front door.

He’s a local lad who moved back from Queensland where he went to work as a brewer for the Burleigh brewing company. He says he was homesick, wanted to start a family with his wife, Jess, and couldn’t think of a better place to do it than home. The couple’s son arrived 16 months ago. And they sold their first beer in February...

More at: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/31/sp-scottsdale-tasmania-regional-revitalisation


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## madpierre06 (31/8/14)

Awesome story Feldon...until Boag's masters decide they don't like losing even this relatively miniscule amount of market share and offfer him more money than he can say no to to buy him out. Having said that, it's lovely to see a young bloke setting a goal (I detest that friggin' overused word DREAM) and making it work. Good luck to him, souds like he's got a good head around what he's doing.


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## shaunous (13/9/14)

Well I was doing my bit yesterday, hard at it. 

Tree On!


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## Hugh Jarse (17/9/14)

I am born and bred Tasmanian and unfortunately I have to live and work away from my family for 5 weeks at a time due to the nature of my industry. I could do the same job closer to home but for 50k a year less and mind numbing boredom to follow suit, whereas I choose to somewhat sacrifice family time (I get 5 weeks completely off after my 5 weeks at work) to challenge myself mentally with more career opportunities.
Having worked in and around most states in Australia and some time overseas at different periods during my career, I am sad to say that Tasmania is in a pretty fucked state at the moment.
On the whole, all sides of government (both state and federal) are acting like spoilt brats, standing in parliament for the world to see and calling each other witty indirect names and then in the next sentence they complain about the escalation of bullying in schools! All sides of the government need to be reset and actually do what they are employed, by us tax payers, to do, and that is act in the best interest of the community. Many politicians have vested interests in policies in an indirect manner and this trumps community needs every time. 
The large problem in our community here, and I suspect in pockets on the mainland, is that the new generation (I am 32 years young) expect everything now and they don't want to do the hard yards to earn it. I am seeing it in my industry, young people that are fresh out of high school expecting to do it all straight away. It doesn't work like that and the sooner you pull your head out of your arse the quicker you will be able to do it all. Knuckle down and work hard. In Tas, this is rife and this is where I feel some of the hostility LRG has experienced has come from (unsure of your line of work LRG) and with the currently employment state here, will only be worse.
Education is key. At present, we are letting people out of the education system only to generate another generation of people who are not willing to put in the hard yards. 
Forestry in Tas will always be a sore subject. I was fortunate enough to build my house entirely from timber milled from a local mill before they were forced to close. Selective logging is the answer but neither side wish to show any form of compromise and you end up with a really nasty stalemate that everyone suffers from. I do watch the news but I do not read the newspaper (mostly because there is nothing of interest in there!). If I do get interested in a story, then i research it for myself due to the fact the media is increasingly a one sided coin, whichever way that coin drops. 
As for the state of Tas, I would not live anywhere else on the planet....... I can live anywhere in Australia being a FiFo, but I choose Tas. My brother attended uni for 5 years doing 2 degrees, worked in Sydney and Canberra and then moved back to Tas to work and live. Same story with my sister, worked in Melbourne and then moved back to do same job. It is a beautiful state with many opportunities, but people need to put into the community to get back from it. 
My partner has been fortunate enough to not have to work the last 5 years while raising our daughter, and now she is at the stage where she is thinking of re-entering the workforce..... but she doesn't want to because there are people in the community that need the work more than she. Then on the other side of the coin, there are people in the community that don't want the work at all! 
I have more points of view but can't be arsed going back through the thread to highlight them all. If you are thinking of coming down here for a holiday or to take residence, by all means please do. At the end of the day, if you contribute to the community in a positive way, then you a re welcome here. 
One last point...... single minded points of view about Tas and all the incest, two headed jokes give rise to "The only reason Tasmanians have two heads is so when they go to the main land, they have someone decent to talk to!" (not all mainlanders are tainted with the same brush!).


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## taztiger (17/10/14)

G'Day folks

Here is a good read for anyone still interested in this topic

http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/july/1404136800/john-van-tiggelen/destruction-triabunna-mill-and-fall-tasmanias-woodchip-

cheers
Taz


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