# 1 vs 2 yeast packs for lagers



## micblair (17/7/13)

Was hesitant on doing so, but the cost of 34/70 in NZ at $11 a pack decided to skimp. Pitched at 23C, O2 90 seconds the drop to ~12C o/night. Kicked off within this period, no off flavours (yet) and fermenting away quite happily. Got some reassurance from Saf's FAQ when fermenting at or below 12C on pitching rates. Still border line I guess? 

http://www.fermentis.com/brewing/homebrewing/frequently-asked-questions/

Anyone got personal experience on this, especially 'under pitching' vs the commonly used 2 pack approach?


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## citizensnips (17/7/13)

I know palmer always advised again pitching at that high a temp with lagers, he more referred to the first day/s not a few hours so you'll probably be sweet, I've had little experience though so not too sure on the off flavours. It does say however _low pitching rates mean more total cell growth, more amino acid synthesis, and therefore my by-products_, not too sure what by-products he means specifically though.


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## micblair (17/7/13)

Interestingly enough the recommended/ideal temperature on the spec sheet for 34/70 is 12-15C (120g/hl = 12 g/10L), which is still 2 packs contrary to their own advice.


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## verysupple (17/7/13)

I'm no lager expert, but from what I've read...

1 pack is definitely under pitching for "standard" batch of lager. You pitched warm, though, so the yeast would have multiplied more than if pitched cold. As citizensnips said, it may produce more nasties so I'd do a decent diacetyl rest as that may help to clear up some of the by-products. Also, it seems you have decent temp control so a good lagering period could also help. 

Having said all that, once fermentation is complete you might taste it and it'll be great and there will have been nothing to worry about.

I hope it turns out great, sorry for the lack of "personal experience". :icon_cheers:


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## QldKev (18/7/13)

micblair said:


> Was hesitant on doing so, but the cost of 34/70 in NZ at $11 a pack decided to skimp. Pitched at 23C, O2 90 seconds the drop to ~12C o/night. Kicked off within this period, no off flavours (yet) and fermenting away quite happily. Got some reassurance from Saf's FAQ when fermenting at or below 12C on pitching rates. Still border line I guess?
> 
> http://www.fermentis.com/brewing/homebrewing/frequently-asked-questions/
> 
> Anyone got personal experience on this, especially 'under pitching' vs the commonly used 2 pack approach?






citizensnips said:


> I know palmer always advised again pitching at that high a temp with lagers, he more referred to the first day/s not a few hours so you'll probably be sweet, I've had little experience though so not too sure on the off flavours. It does say however _low pitching rates mean more total cell growth, more amino acid synthesis, and therefore my by-products_, not too sure what by-products he means specifically though.



Yeast goes through 4 different stages after you pitch it to the wort. Lag, Log, Stationary, and Death. Often Death is left off and it's called 3 phases.

During the initial Lag period the yeast cells are getting ready for the fermenting. No real flavors are developed so we are best to minimise the time for this phase. Pitching warm is a great way to minimise this phase. I pitch all my beers warm, and then start dropping the temperature to the set fermenting temp immediately. So if you pitches at 23c and it got to the 12c within this stage you won't get off flavors.

Log stage a lot happens. The experiential growth starts to happen, and sugar is consumed. This is the stage where a lot of the esters (flavors) are produced. The more reproduction, the more the esters, the more the flavors. The aromatic and flavors are often called byproducts, although we want some in many beers style, we need to be careful not to over do it and let it dominate our beers. Hence why we are concerned with pitch rates. Pitch too little you result in too much byproducts, over pitch and you don't get enough.

Stationary phase is where the yeast has developed to their maximum numbers. At this stage left over sugars are converted, and some byproducts are cleaned up. So things like diacetyl are cleaned up largely. Finally the yeast commences floccing out.


34/70 is a great yeast and you can get away with some under pitching. But without knowing the beers style or the OG I can't comment if you will be ok.


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## Droopy (18/7/13)

Mate, you've pitched it just fine!!


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## QldKev (18/7/13)

Droopy said:


> Mate, you've pitched it just fine!!


How can you tell, what if it was a 100L batch of 1.100 wort?


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## Diesel80 (18/7/13)

QldKev said:


> How can you tell, what if it was a 100L batch of 1.100 wort?


Perhaps his success criteria ends at the point where the yeast ends up in the wort, ie he successfully pitched the yeast, other complications aside.

Agree with Kev though, more info needed.

FWIW i will be doing a 1 pack pitch in the coming week or so on a receipe similar to Batz Far Kin lager. He uses a single pack of S-189 at about 15deg for his aussie pub lager knockoff, according to the R DB. So I will see how it goes. I trust him, he has a brewery sticker....

Cheers,
D80


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## micblair (18/7/13)

Sorry fellas, 1.054 was where it started.


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## Droopy (18/7/13)

QldKev said:


> How can you tell, what if it was a 100L batch of 1.100 wort?


If ifs and ands were pots and pans.

OP said pitched @ good 23C before cooling and fermentation had started; will be all good!


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## GalBrew (18/7/13)

Droopy said:


> If ifs and ands were pots and pans.
> OP said pitched @ good 23C before cooling and fermentation had started; will be all good!


????????


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