# Adventurous Brewers Wanted



## Brad_G (23/11/06)

Hi guys, 
As being only new to AG brewing, my knoweledge is very limited. PistolPatch and myself have been working on the differences between BIAB and Batch Sparge brewing over the last couple of weeks. Whilst organising the testing and working on changing one variable at a time whilst brewing (ie BIAB VS Batch), we thought this would open a fun and educational opportunity.


There are many different tests that could be perfomed and as we are all aware, alot of these tests will have been performed before, especially by the more experienced brewers. We would like to ask people to add their names to the thread if they are interested in performing some tests or have any ideas on tests that could be performed. 


We believe this thread can help beginners, like myself, and also the more experienced brewers in creating their most desired brew and having a bit of fun in the process. 
If enough people are willing to have a bash, we will post some of the ideas for guidelines and procedures that we have written up over the last few weeks. 
Brad


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## Stuster (23/11/06)

I'm not quite clear what you are asking, vjval, but the one thing that springs to mind is to do a triangular taste test on the results of the BIAB v. Batch sparge experiment. It's a good way to check if two things taste the same to most people. From here.



> Triangle Test
> 
> The triangle taste test is used primarily for "difference testing." Each participant is presented with three products and asked to taste all three and choose the one that is different from the other two. The triangle taste test is used to determine who can discriminate (i.e., consistently identify the one product thats different), and who cannot.
> 
> These discriminators are in turn used as members of small expert panels (sometimes called sensory panels) to assist research and development in formulating and reformulating products, using the triangle design to determine if a particular ingredient change, or a change in processing, creates a detectable difference in the final product. Triangle taste testing is also used in quality control to determine if a particular production run (or production from different factories) meets the quality-control standard (i.e., is not different from the product standard in a triangle taste test using discriminators).


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## Brad_G (23/11/06)

Stuster, 

Thats exactly what we will have to do to check the differences between the brews. We can also send our samples off to tasters (who would like to be involved) for triangle testing also. The results should be interesting. 

The amount of tests is nearly unlimited. One that springs to my mind is to add a particular yeast to a brew, halve it into 2 fermenters and ferment them at slightly different temps (say 2 degrees). Im sure its been done before, but if we get a couple of people to test all at different temperatures, we can come up with a pretty good idea about a particular yeast. This would help immensely on predicting a desired taste to a beer. 

Do you sort of understand what I mean?

Brad


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## DJR (23/11/06)

Mate

Send em to either myself of Stuster - we can do some triangle tasting at the next ISB brewday.

Mmmm, angular

Would be interesting to use a common yeast (such as S-04 or US56) and ferment at different temps with different procedures (ie. racking time etc) with the same recipe to work out the optimal, but i think the devil is in the details, so a rough guide for some different procedures/ingredients/mash temps etc would be in order, all using the same recipe as a base (Perhaps the latest revision of Jase's Skunk Fart)


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## Brad_G (23/11/06)

Definately DJR, the procedures must be tight to ensure consistancy, and in the case of yeast, I agree with using the same recipe. 
They will be posted soon. 

brad


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## Stuster (23/11/06)

DJR said:


> Send em to either myself of Stuster - we can do some triangle tasting at the next ISB brewday.



:super: 

Other experiments.

1. Same wort, different yeast quantity. Split the wort into two cubes (no chill) or fermenters (chill) and use (some of) the yeast cake from the first to ferment the second.
I've done follow on batches using the same yeast (second batch pitched about half of the first yeast cake) and ended up with a much lower gravity on the second batch (1016 v. 1006)

2. Same wort, different yeast.
I'm now doing a few batches where I'll be using different yeasts on split batches.

3. Same wort and yeast, different (or no) dry hop.

4. Same wort, primary only with one batch, secondary with the other batch.

5. Lager/CC or not.

6. ....


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## Brad_G (23/11/06)

See, Theres heaps of ideas out there. And, if everyone gets involved, we can answer alot of our questions in a short amount of time and enabling us to taste :chug: :chug: many beers in the process!!!! 

Good stuff stuster

brad


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## Brad_G (23/11/06)

I had a chat to ross today and he had some good advice... Different brewing setups will make totally different beers even if using the same recipe and strict procedures. He says that a brew club did a test with the same grain bill and hops for 10 people and no two beers were alike. I dont know the full details on the guidelines of brewing, but it was interesting to hear. 

What we are aiming for here is a fun way of finding out things that effect a beers flavour and how much it changes. Most of the tests that I can think of would only need to split a finished wort and have a temperature constant fermentation. This eliminates the error in the sparging/boiling stages. 

Ross has also mentioned on another thread for pistolpatch to go over to his place and do a double brew, one with brew in a bag and the other with the traditional batch sparge. Im probably going to attend so I can see how things pan out. 

Cheers to ross for his info. 

BRAD


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## PistolPatch (23/11/06)

Everyone wants to taste the beer not make it - lol! You know me, I better not start writing so all I'll say is cheers Stuster and DJR. Good stuff!

We haven't heard from any kit or extract brewers yet? You guys should be jumping in here as there are heaps less variables.*

I'm sure there are more fun-loving brewers out there. You don't have to be experienced to participate in this though you might have to be prepared to take your brewing gear around to another brewer's place. Well worth the trouble.

Ross has invited Brad and myself to his place to have a crack. (We can drink all his beer too!)

Any other brewers out there who want to invite someone around? Or any brewers who'd like to be invited? We need some numbers to make any resulting feedback have some value.

I can't wait to try first wort hopping. 

*One thing I would have loved to try when I was kit brewing would be different 'Use By' dates on the same tin as I suspect there could be a great difference there.

Cheers
Pat


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## Brewtus (24/11/06)

What about testing how much lagering can change a beer?
Or bottle half a batch and put the other in a secondry?
Differece between a plastic and glass secondry?

Malt shovel make 12 litre fermenters and bunnings sells 12(maybe 10?) litre plastic secondrys. All you need is cash.


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## InCider (24/11/06)

I'm in! The salty tang of adventure has roused the "Solo Man" in me.

I will K & K and partake in the tasting. What fun. :beer: 

New methods, new madness and this will get me closer to BIAB too.

InCider.


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## Brad_G (24/11/06)

:beerbang: :beerbang: :beerbang: Nice work guys, great to have you aboard  

Its not totally necessary to brew 2 brews with a partner in all cases.

Im going to make a basic light ale early next week. Everything I do will be noted, from the time I start to the time I finish.

The test I will be applying will be :- US56 Fermentation Temperate Effects (18 degrees and 24 degrees) 

I will split the wort to 2 fermenters and use a common yeast starter. 

Have your guys got a test you would like to perform personally, or should we start a running list and pick off the ones that we would like to try???????? 

InCider, what about dry hopping 1/2 of one of yours? 

Brewtus. Thats a great idea about secondaries. Do you want to give it a go? I would like to see the results of that one. 

Stuster and DJR, What about using different temps from my test above? Or SO4? 



Brad


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## Weizguy (24/11/06)

Good evening brewers.

I just finished bottling my 98% rauchmalz Schlenkerla Smoked Marzen clone, and read a pm from Pat.

So,...I suppose that I should raise my hand 4 this.
Adventurous brewer sounds a little like me, for anyone who follows my brewing on this forum.

It may get expensive sending beer to Qld for tasting though, so we might have to keep that (tasting bit) on a local level. Well, mostly...

InCider, that salty tang may actually be a Gose. On my "brew soon" llist

Hand me some brewjobs, and I'll see what I can cope with.

Thanks for bringing out the scientist in me.

Seth in


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## dr K (24/11/06)

I am not being cynical, just old.
The major difference you will find is between the brewers and their set-ups and procedures.
I was part of (and it may be the one metioned earlier) an experiment where 10 or 12 of us were given identical "packs", each contained the same grain, cracked at the same time on the same mill. Each contained identical qty's of identical hops some Burton Salts and the same yeast.
We were given identical instructions....we made vastly different beers.
Given the huge (and from at least one experiment) proven variation of results from diferent brewers set-ups and procedures you have no control whatsover in your proposed experiment.
What can be done, and is very useful, is have a controlled batch of wort, even say a number of those Cubes that are available, from the same batch of course.
First of al have say, three or four brewers (local) make the same beer on the same day using the same yeast and the same wort (you may want to do a bulk boil of 50 litres and cube the result into three or 4 small batches, or just use a pre-made cube each).
Then do the same but with differnt yeasts (if you went the pre-made course you could do both on the same day).
Meet and critically asess each beer..first in a round of the same yeast beer, then the various yeast beers.
I feel that the first round (same yeast) will be a huge eye opener, and the second will blow your mind !!

Trust me

K


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## Weizguy (25/11/06)

C'mon *k*, we don't need U blowing minds all over the place.

I can only presume that we were expecting variation within each sample, and that we would start with split batches from each brewer, to minimise the variability (between brewers).

Indeed, to obtain true "scientifically repeatable" results, you to change only one variable at at time.
Repeatability is the mark of a true "science".

Maybe there are too many variables in this, but each experimental brew can at least be standardised by laying down a set of conditions to be adhered to.
Then the variability is only between the individual brewers.
That may then require a series of tests for each brewer, to minimise the sample variation.

It can be like a World Series brewing test.

We can only decide if there is too much inter-sample variation to provide a statistically significant result by creating those samples in the first place.

...and it's about the fun of brewing, too; as well as the learning and experience that each brewer will obtain from the challenge.
Oh,...and the tasting and evaluation, too. Don't forget about that.

I think we'll find that the tasting becomes a bit of a chore when you have to sit down and check off/ evaluate all the differences on a score sheet, rather than just quaff a few and have a chat.

Are we ready to make this a real brew science lesson?

Thanks for the input, Doktor k. As for you being "old", I think you're quite a handsome 93 yr old and one of the best-preserved (pickled) biological samples I have met.

Seth out :lol:


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## Brad_G (25/11/06)

Seth, your right

There will always be differences in brews. Always. But to give you a little insight. Last night I did a little triangular test of my own with the Side-by-Side brew PistolPatch and myself both made last weekend. It was young, dont get me wrong, but the beers (in mine and my girlfriends eyes) were so damn similar that you wouldnt believe it. The beer that I made on the batch sparge method had a slightly smaller boil volume which made it a tiny bit more bitter than that of patch's. 

If thats one test that came out so similar, but using two different brewing techniques, I believe that there is a place for brew testing and getting some sort of 'average' result.



> We were given identical instructions....we made vastly different beers.
> Given the huge (and from at least one experiment) proven variation of results from diferent brewers set-ups and procedures you have no control whatsover in your proposed experiment."


In comment to this quote, the truth will only be in the pudding. 
And what about having a bit of fun whilst trying to find those ingredients/procedures that produce the perfect beer for your pallet. 

Bring on the world series brew test Seth!!!!!!!


Brad


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## frogman (25/11/06)

Sounds great to me.  

Whats the worst that can happen? <_< 
We meet every few weeks get together for a brew day and have a few drinks? :beer: 
Sounds more fun than doing it solo. :blink: 

Count me in.
Damien.


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## PistolPatch (26/11/06)

*General* Good to see those who have put their hands up are treating it as a bit of fun. That is the main idea. Thanks InCider, Les and Frogman.

I'm going to Brad's tomorrow night (this means I have to wait 3 hours for an after-work beer and it's bloody hot up here - grrrr) to rack and keg the brews done a few weeks ago. This'll be a good chance for us to have a chat and see if we can come up with something interesting for us to have a bash at.

I was hoping that we'd end up with pairs from the same suburb/town. I imagine Les could do some stuff with Weizguy when Stephen returns and Damien should be able to find a brewing partner fairly close. InCider lives in the middle of nowhere! We'll come up with something that should work for anyone though.

*Something to Discuss to Keep Us Occupied!* Brad had told me of the experiment that drK describes a little while ago and while we will work arounbd this, it's still pretty interesting and could be worth some discussion.

Mainly, what do you reckon were the _major_ things that created the differences in the Adelaide experiment?

One of the most important that comes to mind for me is...

Thermometers: I think this would have been a huge factor. I have never seen two thermometers give the same readings (sometimes HUGE differences) and different temperatures in mashing, pitching and fermentation obviously can have a major impact. I also reckon that a lot of thermometers can read OK at freezing and boiling but not necessarily in between making that method of calibration a somewhat inexact science.

That's enough from me for now I think!


Pat


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## Brad_G (26/11/06)

> (this means I have to wait 3 hours for an after-work beer and it's bloody hot up here - grrrr)



The ESB we did long distance is on tap here and it is a BEAUTY. Hope yours tastes like mine, cause then we have 40l of the stuff!!!! May be a zero driver home mate!!!!!!

brad


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## Brad_G (28/11/06)

Just a quick one... 

Had a beer with dunkler dopplebock and pistolpatch last night. Dunkler brought a couple of bottles of his nice and malty wiezen (AG) over. One was carbonated with Brewcraft Sugar Drops and the other with normal household sugar. Anyway, we all thought that there was a slight difference in taste. Like the household sugar one was a little 'tinnier' or something like that. Has anyone else tried this? What were your thoughts on taste? 

brad


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## Zizzle (28/11/06)

Were you blind testing?

Well I know Pat probably got blind, but you know what I mean.


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## Brad_G (28/11/06)

> Were you blind testing?
> Well I know Pat probably got blind, but you know what I mean.



Funny post :beer: 

Blind? We could see the beers, but didnt know which one was which. Kegged patchs version of the ESB today, so we will be all ready for a little taste testing fun at the QLD Case swap. I cant wait. 

Anyone started any tests? I will be doing the temp test later in the week now as work has come down on me like a ton of bricks.  
brad


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## dunkmac (11/12/06)

vjval1974 said:


> Funny post :beer:
> 
> Blind? We could see the beers, but didnt know which one was which. Kegged patchs version of the ESB today, so we will be all ready for a little taste testing fun at the QLD Case swap. I cant wait.
> 
> ...




amateur brewer doing an amateur test. i've split my american wheat batch. just bottled half & leaving other half to secondary ferment for another 7 days before bottling (fisrt & secondary ferments at same temp). we'll see if there is any dramatic diference between them. 

dunk


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## Brad_G (11/12/06)

Christmas Case Swap BIAB Vs Batch Sparge Test Results

Patch and myself brewed the same English Bitter in different locations 1 day apart, I sent patch all of my notes, times etc and he followed them using his BIAB method. They were fermented at the same temperatures, but in different locations. 

Eight people were tested. They were given 3 glasses marked 1, 2 and 3. 2 samples of one beer were poured against 1 of the other. The idea of the test was to pick the odd one out and why. 

Hoops got it absolutely correct and was confident with his findings. One other person got it correct too, but explained that there were differences with the other 2 beers (which were the same), so gathering that, there was not much confidence there. 

The other six didnt succeed, and therefore could not see an obvious difference in the beers.

Findings:
These findings are based only on the results from one style of beer, so in no way can we say that there is consistant evidence for or against the following.
1) BIAB can produce the same results as Batch Sparge 
2) That you can produce the same beer twice. 
Saying this, I believe that discipline in brewing techniques can improve consistency in your brews. 

Dunkler Dopplebock: Nice idea mate. Cant wait to hear the results of that one. 

Please post any comments if you have them.

Brad


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## stephen (11/12/06)

I was hoping that we'd end up with pairs from the same suburb/town. I imagine Les could do some stuff with Weizguy when Stephen returns and Damien should be able to find a brewing partner fairly close. InCider lives in the middle of nowhere! We'll come up with something that should work for anyone though.

Patch

I reckon that's a great idea. I will be back home by 15 DEC and will catch up with Les the Weizguy and see what we can offer to our fellow brewers in the search of science, truth and the Australian way. Since Les and myself have very similar brewing equiment the processes shouldn't be too dissimilar - even the water supply is the same!

Stay tuned to this post.

Stephen


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## PistolPatch (18/12/06)

Sorry Stephen. I meant to reply ages ago but knew you were AWOL. (Hopefully you, Les, and I can discuss the below on Saturday  )

The real excuse of not replying though is that Brad and I were thinking, "Let's just let that thread die!" due to the underwhelming interest - lol.

But, above we have some extremely good brewers who are totally enthusiastic and don't mind taking a risk so....

I'm going to try and write down something that really struck me today that will hopefully interest all of us here.

(I also must say that I am really struggling in writing this as I think I lack the brewing knowledge and experience to convey my thoughts correctly let alone concisely. My point is at the end though if you want to jump straight there  ) 

*'Mythbusters of Brewing'*

The original idea of this thread was to create a sort of 'Mythbusters' of brewing. In other words, a thread that would answer the question, "What brewing variations/techniques should be of little or no importance to the majority of craftbrewers?" Or maybe, answer the question, "In what circumstances should a particular brewing technique or variation be considered important?"

After this morning, my enthusiasm in this idea to 'quantify' or 'value' variations and techniques has been restored.

*One Example of A Technical Brewing Truth That Maybe a Myth for Most CraftBrewers*

Those of you reading here will know that Brad and I did a side by side brew on batched beer versus bagged beer. In other words, a test on low liquor to grist ratio versus high liquor to grist ratio. The end result was that basically no one could tell the difference. From what I've read though, there should have been some difference and I honestly thought it would be noticeable. This perplexed me and also ThirstyBoy who had written on this. (One of the best-written posts I have ever seen on the forum.)

Furthermore, on the weekend, drK, who obviously has a high degree of grain chemistry knowledge also asked a question which we managed to answer after about 30 posts - lol. He expected that the full-volume brewing (such as BIAB) would have the effect of a more dextrinous wort (I think I know what that means  ) and that the yeast attenuation would be less.

From the figures that the BIAB guys produced, it doesn't. (Looks like it's slightly higher actually.)

This had me further perplexed and I've been thinking all day on what I wrote there this morning....



> Sometimes I wonder when I read things in the advanced textbooks. For example, they often say things like doing such and such will give you a maltier beer but they never seem to specify how much maltier. Is it 1% or 10% maltier? This may be of great concern to a commercial brewery but largely irrelevant to craftbrewers.
> 
> I sometimes find it very hard to work out what's important and what's not from the advanced books and articles.
> 
> The learning continues...



Personally, I found the above results amazing. I also think that it's important that newer brewers at whatever level are aware of the, 'importance level,' of a variaton or technique. (Badly written that!) But how many times do you see someone advising someone to use a liquid yeast (something I have never used as yet because I need to learn a lot of other stuff first) when the person has just finished their first kit? (An exaggeration of course but you get my drift.)

Or, of more relevance here, how many times do you read people quoting from textbooks but not also saying, " Yeah! This advice is spot on! I did this brew the other day and..."

*Finally*

The above is not as well-written as I'd hoped and may not even trigger any ideas. Sometimes when dealing with grey areas though you just have to put it out there the best way you can.

So, does anyone here know of any 'textbook' theories that they think would be worth testing to check their relevance to craft-brewing - are there _any_ that need questioning?

Edit: Just had a crack at shortening this but ended up adding stuff so I think it's best I go to work now.

LOL (as always )
Pat


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## Brewtus (18/12/06)

Take heart, I am waiting for Xmas to get my two secondaries so I can work on this. I have also been a bit busy with other things and my last two brews have had to have too much attention as they were over-heating. 
With respect, you picked a busy time to start. 
Don't kill the idea yet. I may be the evidence based research to beath life into Dane's wiki.


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## Brewtus (14/4/07)

Brewtus said:


> Take heart, I am waiting for Xmas to get my two secondaries so I can work on this. I have also been a bit busy with other things and my last two brews have had to have too much attention as they were over-heating.
> With respect, you picked a busy time to start.
> Don't kill the idea yet. I may be the evidence based research to beath life into Dane's wiki.



Well Xmas didn't help and 2 plastic jerry cans did not excite the kids imaginations. I finally bought them today so will start to try different things. As the wiki has had a rush and died a little, this may give me more to write about.


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## Brewtus (30/5/07)

I had hoped this thread would lead to something interesting and a whole new range of interesting topics. So far it seems to have died. 

Is anyone still keen to have a go? :huh: 

I have a batch of kit lager, two 10 liter jerry cans and some Saaz pellets. I will rack half and half, dry hop one with 15g pellets. I will then test it on friends and others and let you know.


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## PistolPatch (30/5/07)

Good on you Brewtus. Sorry I missed your last posts here somehow.

Brad and I should have probably come up with a better title for this thread but at least it has brought out the right people such as yourself and there are a few more I know of now that would be interested in this.

Maybe we should just use this thread a little bit longer until we get some more results in such as yours. Once we have this, maybe we can start a new thread better titled such as, 'Side by Side Brew Test Results,' or something a little better. 'Comparison Brewing' - I dunno.

For me personally, I think the quickest and most accurate way to learn about small changes in brewing is doing it this way.

I'm close to getting two sets of brewing equipment and will be able to do some great side by side tests very soon. (First one this weekend I think!)

Anyway, I'll chuck a link in to any other relevant threads I see here. We can then post our results here and soon we should have enough interesting stuff to get a new long-term, very valuable thread under way.

I'm sure that Les and Stuster can already probably post some interesting findings.

Don't you stop your writing Brewtus and sorry I haven't contributed to the wiki yet. I'll ge there one day!

Spot ya,
Pat

P.S. Where has Brad_G gone? Haven't heard from him for ages???


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## Darren (30/5/07)

Ha, MYTHBUSTERS of brewing, the NEW science?

Lets break all the rules as we have encountered and before we have endeavored to understand them.

cheers

Darren


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## PistolPatch (30/5/07)

Darren old son!

My goodness! I haven't re-read the thread for months now but we're not here to break any rules.

Nup, the point of this thread is to explore, first-hand, what small changes in the brewing process can make. Maybe occassionally we will try something outrageous but I imagine that wouldn't be too often.

I'm talking about small but significant things such as a few degrees difference in mash or fermentation temps, low versus high evaporation rates, or, like the one above, carbonation drops versus sugar priming.

It's basically trying to form a group of people whose opinion you trust and will report their results or better still, who are willing to send 2 bottles interstate for comparison and receive 2 bottles for comparison.

It's going to be a really good thing I reckon.

Spot ya,
Pat


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## ant (31/5/07)

(pinched from an earlier post, but...)

Temperature effects on same yeast strain - Take a style where the yeast has different profiles at different temps (hefe?), same malt, hops, yeast, just fermented at bottom of recommended range, mid range, high end of range, started low and finished high...

AA% - What is the effect of high AA% hops in bittering profile? 4 brews hopped to same IBU using low through superhigh AA% hops... this one has me particularly interested; I've heard a bit about how high AA% hops produce a harsh bitterness, but never tried it.

Did my first batch in a few months with a fella over here on the weekend - double batch IPA, we've split it, pitched a new tube of the same yeast in each, and fermenting at different ends of the recommended range. Couple of weeks and we'll have an answer...

Good idea for a post. Like it. :super:


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## bayWeiss (31/5/07)

ant said:


> (pinched from an earlier post, but...)
> 
> Temperature effects on same yeast strain - Take a style where the yeast has different profiles at different temps (hefe?), same malt, hops, yeast, just fermented at bottom of recommended range, mid range, high end of range, started low and finished high...
> 
> ...



I do not know if you guys get the magazine "Zymurgy May/June07" in the land down under, but there was an article in it from Neva Parker at White Labs that chemically tested for compounds with a Perkin Elmer Gas Chromatograph in relatively low-ester yeast strains, using gravity and fermentation temperature as variables. 

The compounds (yield) tested for were:
Propanol, Iso-amyl alcohol, Ethyl Acetate, Iso-amyl acetate, and diacetyl. 

the yeasts were:
WLP001, WLP500, and a lager yeast WLP830

the original wort gravities were:
1.030, 1.044, 1.070

and the temperatures were:
68F/20C and 75F/24C for ale, 55F/12.8C and 68F/20C for lager

Pick up the mag for the in-detail article with charts and all... but to summarize-> original gravity had a huge effect (chemically and perception), and fermentation temperature had a large effect as well. The OG of the wort has a larger effect on the amount of compounds emitted from the yeast than did the particular temperature ranges tested.

So, this may save you guys one "adventurous" test.

:beer:


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## Thirsty Boy (31/5/07)

Darren said:


> Ha, MYTHBUSTERS of brewing, the NEW science?
> 
> Lets break all the rules as we have encountered and before we have endeavored to understand them.
> 
> ...



Hey now, you can arrogantly assume that people haven't bothered to try to understand the things that they plan to test, if you want... the assumption without any evidence would make you a bit of a dick... however you're free to do it.

BUT

You leave the damn Mythbusters alone !!! Their science may be dodgey and based mostly around making the loudest possible bang, but there are legions of pyromaniac young boys who will consider the option of a carreer in science as a result. all they have to do is work some boobies into the show and there will be a run on the local physics department.

Besides, anyone who builds an even moderately successful rocket fueled by salami ... is beyond reproach.


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## Brewtus (8/6/07)

I have racked 25l of lager (by yeast definition at this stage) made from Cascade golden harvest kit + 1.5kg coopers amber malt + 20g Saaz at 15min and 15g Saaz at 5min. Only the malt was boiled and kit added at flame out. Yeast (forgot to write it down) German lager yeast from [email protected] 

I racked to 2 x 12 lt jerries and dry hopped one with 10g of Saaz.

Will I be able to tell the difference?

Tell you in a month or so (not real lager until it is cold conditioned for a few months hey?).


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## Brewtus (11/6/07)

First thing to report is the hopped batch fermented much more in the secondry. i.e. the unhopped batch had a little pressure after 3 days while the hopped one blew out the cheap plastic jerry can until it rolled over. I went to degas it and it all frothed up. 

I guess I should have put an air lock on it or at least cling wrap but as it had been in the primary 2 weeks I though it would be ok. the unhopped one was OK. if I did put air locks on I might have missed the difference in bubbling.


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## PistolPatch (11/6/07)

Nice to see a few guys are reading this thread and better still that a few guys are posting. That was an interesting post from Bayweiss and Brewtus, I would have never expected what you just wrotw - would have never predicted that!

I did my first side by side on twin equipment the other day - and it wasn't in an apartment :beerbang:

On this brew, I just varied the mashing regime by two degrees...

Brew A: 63 for 7 minutes, 65 for 14 minutes and 67 for the mash remainder.
Brew B: As above plus two degrees.

Once I work out which I like of the above, I'll then brew that and the second brew, I will mash at the mid temperature to see if I notice any difference between that and the mini-steps above.

Not very exciting tests for anyone else I suppose but I'll post the results.

After this I'm debating whether to drag out my batch-sparging gear so as I can do some batch versus BIAB brews or just do some other minor variations more relvant to all brewers.

For example, I'm getting lazy lately and have just been throwing my hop pellets straight into the kettle - not in a hopsock. This of course ads more trub and I syphon so I'm thinking I should test using the hopsock in one brew for the hops and then use it on the second brew, not for hops, but instead as a trub filter looking for differences in yield, clarity and maybe taste.

Anyway, that's what I'm up to and thanks to Brewtus and Bayweiss for 'testifying' as Les would say.

 
Pat


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## discoloop (11/6/07)

Quite a timely thread, this one.

I bottled my first "lager" (K&K w/saflager) a couple of weeks ago. Lacking the necessary equipment to do a proper cold-condition, I bottled straight from primary. 

Now they're all carbed-up, I've whacked several bottles in the fridge for a psuedo-CC. Will report back in a month or two with the side by side comparison of the lagered and no-lagered lagers...


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## Brewtus (14/6/07)

Brewtus said:


> First thing to report is the hopped batch fermented much more in the secondry. i.e. the unhopped batch had a little pressure after 3 days while the hopped one blew out the cheap plastic jerry can until it rolled over. I went to degas it and it all frothed up.
> 
> I guess I should have put an air lock on it or at least cling wrap but as it had been in the primary 2 weeks I though it would be ok. the unhopped one was OK. if I did put air locks on I might have missed the difference in bubbling.



After a week in the secondary, the hopped version is still producing far more gas than the non dry hopped version.

:unsure:


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## Brewtus (12/7/07)

Bottled them a few weeks back. The dry hopped version left a lot more trub but that is not rocket science. I will do my first test soon.


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## Brewtus (6/5/08)

I know this is and old thread but with lots more brewers this year some new brewers might be interested in doing some side by side experiments, some old brewers might also have the curiosity to try it. 

It doesn't have to be exact science, all knowledge helps.


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## RedDwarf (7/5/08)

I think this is a great idea, pretty much the only way to learn what things affect our beers the most. Reading about brewing is one thing but hands on experience is hard to beat.

I was trying something like this to find out what some hop flavours are, being new to home brewing. Flavours and smells are nearly impossible to describe in words IMO.

I did 2 Morgans Blue Mountain Lager kits. One with just brew sugars(Dex, DME, Maltodextrin). The other with 1.5kg liquid malt and 12g Pride of Ringwood hops. Well the difference was obvious, the liquid malt one was darker with bigger body and taste! After reading this thread I see there are many more factors which may also have affected the outcome... Spliting a wort in 2 may be better.

Brewtus,
Do you remember the differences in your dry hopped/non dry hopped lagers?

Mick.


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## Brewtus (7/5/08)

There was a definite difference in the taste. It was some what predictable except how much more fermenting or at least bubbling went on. I think it came down to taste if it was better or worse but it defiantly had a stonger hop taste but no more bitter.


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## Weizguy (7/5/08)

RedDwarf said:


> <abbrev> Spliting a wort in 2 may be better.
> </abbrev>Mick.


I recently split an all-grain wort in two. It was a porter, with a heavy influence of choc wheat. I fermented half with a culture of W1028 London Ale and the remainder with W1187 Ringwood ale. Both were fermented on the same room, at the same temp of 18-20C.
The Ringwood beer finished about 2 days sooner (based on a 600 ml culture of each), and had a fruitier, butterscotch/diacetyl flavour, where the London Ale yeast provided a drier finish and much less esters.

I split a batch of grain-based Mild onto the yeast cake(s) and got a much more caramel/toffee experience from the Ringwood. Very enjoyable and IMHO better balanced. BTW, both fermented out in 2 days at 18-20C, before the HAG brew comp.

Guess who has a new fave Brit yeast?  

Les


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