# Water Chemistry Question



## NickB (9/1/12)

Hi all,

Not long ago I bought myself an RO filter for my brewing, and have been pumping out some pretty nice lagers with straight RO water.

Now I'm looking to doing some of my tried and true recipes, but have become a little stuck on the water adjustment thing.

Firstly, when working out the g/L of your salt additions, do you use final batch volume, or total water volume for the batch?

Also, I assume it's better to err on the side of caution with extreme additions to styles like Burton Ales - I was looking at half the recommended additions for the first batch, and adjust as necessary...

Also, apart from How To Brew, is there any easy to understand chemistry pages around that are worth reading?

Cheers


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## argon (9/1/12)

Nick, check out the EZ Water Calculator

Demystified alot of things for me with a bit of playing around. It calculates the ph as well as your ratios and is relative to your particular ingredients, with base, crystal and roast malts having their associated effects.

Also on the spreadsheet is a link to Braumeister's experiments... which is always a good read.


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## QldKev (9/1/12)

+1 on the EZ water calculator. Also have a look on my web site, I've got some notes I've chucked together, including a link to "Key concepts in water treatment" which is a great resource.


QldKev


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## mfeighan (9/1/12)

the ez water calculator is good, when i check against measured and predicted ph values etc it is always within .1 ph, so thats good enough for me

Sorry for the thread hijack,
i currently have 50l of rice lager finished and another 50l on the way (been brewing pretty heavy for engagement party) and i realised that the water additions i did for the the first batch
was 15g MgSO4 and 10G CaSO4, rookied it and i was planning on 15g CaCl2 and 10G CaSO4

The first batch seems quite sharp and bitter for only being 20ibu
The second batch has the right additions and is tasting more balanced and malty

Can i modify the water chemistry post fermentation, i was thinking of balancing the Cl/SO4 ratio to 1:1 by adding a bit of table salt and CaCl2 (boiled/cooled etc) or wont it make a difference
or if that wont work should i blend the 2 (will be a PITA)

also is 15g /50l of epsom salts enough to give ppl the squits (i am estimating the boys to have ~6-10 pints )


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## mfeighan (9/1/12)

bump for the pm crew


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## felten (9/1/12)

Aye, you can alter the mineral balance post fermentation. Try it out in a small volume first.


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## manticle (9/1/12)

NickB:

the Wheeler article Kev mentioned does a great job of demystifying. Keep additions as simple as you can (I stick to small additions of Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulphate to mash and boil).

If you use the ez water calculator (download the metric version), you can enter your volume of mash water and sparge water separately. Fiddle a bit and see if you like the results.

@Mikey: Most of what I've read recommends avoiding epsom salts and I'm not sure how beneficial they'd be in a pale lager. However if you are getting a bad result from too high an addition of brewing salt, I don't think adding more salt to balance is the best idea. That said, try very careful measurements into a glass or jug of the beer and see what happens. No need to does the entire beer based on a hypothesis or on someone else's opinion.

That seems like a hell of a lot of sulphate to me. I regularly use 4-6g Calcium sulphate total in a single batch and there's not a lot of sulphate or calcium in my water to begin with.


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## mfeighan (9/1/12)

@manticle: yeah i accidentally added mgso4 instead of cacl2,
it was RO water

cheers felten, will try alter it to a small batch first... where is my drug scales...


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## eamonnfoley (9/1/12)

Be careful, start simple
For 20L batch:
Try a teaspoon of Gyspum in mash for hoppy ale styles.
OR
Teaspoon of calcium chloride in mash for lagers
OR
Teaspoon of each in balanced ale or lager styles.

Ensure mash PH measured at room temp is 5.5 - 5.6. The quoted 5.2-5.4 is at mash temp (and there is a correction factor of about 0.3). Adjust down with acid if necessary. Play with pale styles to begin with - adding chalk for darker beers requires good knowledge of residual alkalinity.

This is a good starting point. If you launch straight into spreadsheets you could come unstuck very quickly.


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## DKS (9/1/12)

foles said:


> Be careful, start simple
> For 20L batch:
> Try a teaspoon of Gyspum in mash for hoppy ale styles.
> OR
> ...



Agree foles, simple is me, or maybe just too scared to go to hard at it as Im just starting with water addions.
Is it sensible to add the 5.2 ph powder along with adding Gypsom and\or Calcium Chloride? or am I wasting 5.2 powder in that case?
I am using beersmith and getting no*s as close as I can in my recipes but I havent put into practice as yet.
Daz


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## eamonnfoley (9/1/12)

DKS said:


> Agree foles, simple is me, or maybe just too scared to go to hard at it as Im just starting with water addions.
> Is it sensible to add the 5.2 ph powder along with adding Gypsom and\or Calcium Chloride? or am I wasting 5.2 powder in that case?
> I am using beersmith and getting no*s as close as I can in my recipes but I havent put into practice as yet.
> Daz



The 5.2 may work but I would suggest adding after salt additions. Actually salt additions can goIn before grain is added to mash liquor. But your better off getting a ph meter if you can, and using salts and acid rather than the 5.2 product.

The 5.2 is solely to adjust ph and doesn't affect the mineral profile of final beer. However it's effectiveness is often questioned. Will prob be ok for RO water and small amount of salts. It can struggle with alkaline or hard water.


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## felten (9/1/12)

this is a good general guide http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-w...-primer-198460/

5.2 is pretty useless by what I've read, but YMMV.


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## manticle (9/1/12)

foles said:


> Be careful, start simple
> For 20L batch:
> Try a teaspoon of Gyspum in mash for hoppy ale styles.
> OR
> ...



I agree on keeping it simple and the summation of when to add what to what but a teaspoon is a really inaccurate way of measuring salts (and too much salt is often worse than none at all). I have many different size and shaped teaspoons, the salt crystals are different shapes and densities and I put a different amount on each time. Doesn't matter so much with sugar in a cup of tea but brewing salts, I prefer 9and think it's better practice) to be more accurate.

Get digital scales capable of measuring 0.1g increments and use them. I bought some for 99c on ebay once - still going strong (and accurate - regular calibration)


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## eamonnfoley (10/1/12)

manticle said:


> I agree on keeping it simple and the summation of when to add what to what but a teaspoon is a really inaccurate way of measuring salts (and too much salt is often worse than none at all). I have many different size and shaped teaspoons, the salt crystals are different shapes and densities and I put a different amount on each time. Doesn't matter so much with sugar in a cup of tea but brewing salts, I prefer 9and think it's better practice) to be more accurate.
> 
> Get digital scales capable of measuring 0.1g increments and use them. I bought some for 99c on ebay once - still going strong (and accurate - regular calibration)



Fair point, accuracy is good. However i just use the estimations from Palmers how to brew: 1 tsp gypsum = 4g and 1 tsp cacl2 = 3.4g. So 1 teaspoon of either or both will work well.
Mineral profiles need not be an exact science


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## drsmurto (10/1/12)

foles said:


> Fair point, accuracy is good. However i just use the estimations from Palmers how to brew: 1 tsp gypsum = 4g and 1 tsp cacl2 = 3.4g. So 1 teaspoon of either or both will work well.
> Mineral profiles need not be an exact science



Au contraire. Adding salts is an exact science but not if you use volume measurements such as Palmer recommends. 

Weigh out your salts with 0.1g accuracy minimum.

Volume measurements such as teaspoons are for measuring volume, strange as that may sound to some. You don't measure temperature with a refractometer.


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## eamonnfoley (10/1/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Au contraire. Adding salts is an exact science but not if you use volume measurements such as Palmer recommends.
> 
> Weigh out your salts with 0.1g accuracy minimum.
> 
> Volume measurements such as teaspoons are for measuring volume, strange as that may sound to some. You don't measure temperature with a refractometer.



Volume measurements are close enough. You will not notice 10ppm here or there of a given mineral in your beer. I would only be going with superaccurate scales if I was trying to emulate a water profile precisely (or maybe If I had some).
A teaspoon of gypsum or cacl, or both in an RO mash will give good results - especially for a beginner.

Do you know that your RO is 100% free of minerals? I had mine tested in the US and I found my RO has 15ppm of chloride, 4ppm sodium, and <1 for everything else. If you dont know exactly what your starting with precision is being confused for accuracy.


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## Phoney (10/1/12)

If you don't own scales how do you measure your hop additions; with a tablespoon? :blink:


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## eamonnfoley (10/1/12)

phoneyhuh said:


> If you don't own scales how do you measure your hop additions; with a tablespoon? :blink:



I have scales accurate to the gram. Not quite good enough for salts. 

Didnt think I would need my flamesuit for offering advice inline with that given by Gordon Strong (Brewing Better Beer) or AJDelange (renowned water guru). but here it is h34r:


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## Nick JD (10/1/12)

Anyone have the water chemistry for the Gold Coast? I know there's a thread but I wonder if it's post-desalination? I can find nothing.


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## argon (10/1/12)

Nick JD said:


> Anyone have the water chemistry for the Gold Coast? I know there's a thread but I wonder if it's post-desalination? I can find nothing.


Earliest and closest i have is for Brisbane 2010... which would be both out of range and way out of date .

I'm sure that helped


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## seamad (10/1/12)

Thought that thhe desal plant was mothballled untill the next drought? Used to know one of the guys at the treatmment plant, thought that Cl llevels were changed according to temps and volumes consummed, so for real accuracy woulld neeed daily updatees.


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## [email protected] (10/1/12)

Nick JD said:


> Anyone have the water chemistry for the Gold Coast? I know there's a thread but I wonder if it's post-desalination? I can find nothing.



NickJD you can get hardness and alkalinity from here that is up to date:

http://www.seqwgm.qld.gov.au/bulk-water-qu...port-bulk-water

Doesn't help with SO4 and Cl. Like Argon, I have been using old Brissy data as a basis.


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## Thirsty Boy (11/1/12)

I've gotta say I'm with Foles on this one. I have .01g scales - I just don't feel the need to use them for salt additions.

Normally I am a "measure it to within a micron of its life" type of brewer - but in this case... I've done the water chem thing, all the complicated calculations, all the ppm bulldust. Been through the complexity and out the other side!

So now, for Melbourne tap water (which is so soft and lacking minerlas that it will do as an approximation of rain and or RO water in a pinch) I add

(Using measuring spoons from craftbrewer OK)

1 rounded tspn of Calcium Chloride to beers that are supposed to be mainly malty (approx 6g)
1 orunded tspn of Gypsum to beers that are supposed to be dry and hoppy (approx 6g)
1/2 tspn of each to beers that are supposed to be a balance between the two

If its an extremely biased beer like an IPA or a scotch ale - 1/2 tspn extra in either direction.

All beers get a half of a 1/4 tspn measure (or a decent pinch) of Magnesium Sulphate (for Mg not sulphate)

Acid to adjust mash pH down if the salts aren't enough - but they pretty much always are in Melb water.

I really keep sulphate additions to a minimum for Noble hopped beers, I dont like how they interact. And I will slap you if I catch you trying to add Chalk or Bicarb to _any beer whatsoever_ - its not needed and makes your beer taste like shit.

Water chem is easy in soft water - pity the poor bastards with water thats already full of crap.


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## drsmurto (11/1/12)

foles said:


> Volume measurements are close enough. You will not notice 10ppm here or there of a given mineral in your beer. I would only be going with superaccurate scales if I was trying to emulate a water profile precisely (or maybe If I had some).
> A teaspoon of gypsum or cacl, or both in an RO mash will give good results - especially for a beginner.
> 
> Do you know that your RO is 100% free of minerals? I had mine tested in the US and I found my RO has 15ppm of chloride, 4ppm sodium, and <1 for everything else. If you dont know exactly what your starting with precision is being confused for accuracy.



Tested my rainwater myself and have less than 0.1 ppm of any of the brewing salts in my water.

And for the record, it's CaCl2 not CaCl, the latter doesn't exist.

Each to their own but a teaspoon is a volume measurement. You'll be in the ballpark and if that is good enough for you then fine.


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## [email protected] (11/1/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I've gotta say I'm with Foles on this one. I have .01g scales - I just don't feel the need to use them for salt additions.
> 
> Normally I am a "measure it to within a micron of its life" type of brewer - but in this case... I've done the water chem thing, all the complicated calculations, all the ppm bulldust. Been through the complexity and out the other side!
> 
> ...



Thats all great..Not that it matters to me, BUT for someone else venturing into salt additions for the first time..
how much brewing water are those additions for? 
Whats your batch size?
Did you add them to mash or boil or both?

:icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD (11/1/12)

Beer4U said:


> Thats all great..Not that it matters to me, BUT for someone else venturing into salt additions for the first time..
> how much brewing water are those additions for?
> Whats your batch size?
> Did you add them to mash or boil or both?
> ...



You'd want to know what's in your water already, first. Without that you might be making it worse, not better.


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## Thirsty Boy (11/1/12)

An important point Nick - but given that the thread is about additions to RO water i think its safe to assume that people are talking about starting from a zero base unless they say otherwise? I was talking about Melb tap water, but thats so lacking in DS that it might as well be RO or rain.

Beer4U - true. I mean for a single batch, 20ish liters of finished beer. And i always advise people to add their salts to the mash tun only at mash in, given that the first and possibly most important job they do is to help control mash pH. If you already know there are reasons why you might not always want to do that and only that.... you already know enough to work this stuff out for yourself. So its self regulating advice.

I find a nice synergy between the position i have come to after having done the "water chemistry thing" to death - and the nice simple rules of thumb that beginning brewers want. So at the demos Spills and I do - we always add some salts to the mash. The punters want to know how much, why and when and all the other details.... and it plainly freaks them out as a topic. They tend to be a bit relieved when they get the "1 tsp" rule of thumb and its not so hard after all. I can also happily and honestly tell the punters that its exactly what I do in my brewing, and I'm no beginner.

Mind you - Going back to NickJD's point, that's NOT what I'd be telling them if we had different water. But for Melb, places with similar water and people on RO or rain water - well, its what I do, so plainly i think its an appropriate way to handle water chem.


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## [email protected] (11/1/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I find a nice synergy between the position i have come to after having done the "water chemistry thing" to death - and the nice simple rules of thumb that beginning brewers want. So at the demos Spills and I do - we always add some salts to the mash. The punters want to know how much, why and when and all the other details.... and it plainly freaks them out as a topic. They tend to be a bit relieved when they get the "1 tsp" rule of thumb and its not so hard after all. I can also happily and honestly tell the punters that its exactly what I do in my brewing, and I'm no beginner.
> 
> Mind you - Going back to NickJD's point, that's NOT what I'd be telling them if we had different water. But for Melb, places with similar water and people on RO or rain water - well, its what I do, so plainly i think its an appropriate way to handle water chem.



Yeah fair point, i can see how - even myself a year / half ago, if you broke out the digital scales accurate to 0.01g
and started measuring different salts in different quantities, splitting certain amounts for mash and boil, it would be enough for a lot of people to go " stuff it " and not adjust their water at all and never look further into water additions in the future.


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## drsmurto (11/1/12)

The anally retentive scientist in me wants to scream everytime i see teaspoons being used for brewing salts...

But i punched some of the numbers in beersmith and they aren't that far out if you allow an error of 10% to change the chemistry a significant amount.

Given this is more about dipping the toes into the world of water chemistry I'm convinced. A few deep breaths, a beer and calm blue ocean.

As Nick/TB and others have said, the critical point is knowing what your base water chemistry is before you start adjusting it. 

I'd also add that you should know why you are adjusting it (is it needed?) not just following someone's recipe or trying to mimic an historical water profile which is arguably no longer relevant.

Cheers
DrSmurto - trying to take a more relaxed approach to science on forums in 2012 :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (11/1/12)

I like the quick and simple approach thirsty and I think people can get unnecessarily carried away with trying to replicate hypothetical profiles etc.

The one thing I'm not convinced on though (and I'm pretty confident you know what you're doing and I have tasted some of your beers) is the use of a teaspoon as a reasonable measurement. Calcium sulphate and calcium chloride will weigh different amounts. A heaped (or even slightly piled) teaspoon will weigh close to twice or more as much as a level teaspoon. An old granny's teaspoon will be vastly different to a metric cooking tsp.

Like you I have standard additions and for most beers it's simply balanced CaCl2 and CaSO4 to mash and boil for pH adjustment and flavour. Ocassionally I may omit CaS04 (although haven't found the imbalance with noble hops as yet) squeeze a lemon* in really pale beers or up the CaCl2 to push malt but one thing I do do is weigh them. It's easy. I weigh my hops (I don't guess or add 1/2 a cup) and for consistency and ease of use I weigh (and recommend others weigh) their salts.

The other thing I guess that comes to mind is that while trying to keep it simple for people trying to grasp the beginning concepts, it's still good to help them get the beginning concepts. That person who knows to add 1 tsp of CaCl2 to the mash while they live in Melbourne, may move to Perth one day (or the US).

What works for people works for them obviously - I count people's experiences with brewing as valid, especially when they have a lot of it (and there were no flames from me to Foles) but if I were trying to simplify water chemistry for someone, I'd still recommend they get a pair of scales before chucking salts in (and find out their water profile if not soft/RO) and get a very vague understanding of what salts do what (and why CaCO3 comes from Satan's bumhole).

* Yes I realise the hypocrisy of pushing for accurate measurement of salts while one of my ocassional measurements is a 'squeeze' of a randomly sized fruit.


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## Nick JD (11/1/12)

DrSmurto said:


> DrSmurto - trying to take a more relaxed approach to science on forums in 2012 :icon_cheers:



Yes, Doc ... craft brewing is an artform. To standardise the product is to destroy it's mystique. 

It's only when things vary that we can strive to make them perfect.


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## MHB (11/1/12)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Snip
> I really keep sulphate additions to a minimum for Noble hopped beers, I dont like how they interact. And I will slap you if I catch you trying to add Chalk or Bicarb to _any beer whatsoever_ - its not needed and makes your beer taste like shit.


I used to feel that way about Chalk to, but will add a caveat, have had a couple of long hard discussions with Gough (Shawn) about his Wild Thing Imperial Stout, mate I was way wrong on that one, Chalk makes a big difference to beers with a shed load of Roast and other dark malt/grain in them.
The difference being like a barbwire pull-through verses silky smooth.
Its worth having a look at the interrelation between Carbonate and Phosphate and the role that plays in mash pH, but only for very dark beers.
Otherwise, complete waste of time adding chalk.
MHB


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## dent (11/1/12)

As hygroscopic as CaCl2 is, I wouldn't be surprised if the volume measurement turned out to be more accurate than the mass.


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## bradsbrew (11/1/12)

Nick RO water is shit, it sent Bribie mad and gave him haemoroids. get rid of it. I will give you 200L of kallangur water for it.

Cheers


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## manticle (11/1/12)

dent said:


> As hygroscopic as CaCl2 is, I wouldn't be surprised if the volume measurement turned out to be more accurate than the mass.



Can you elaborate?


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## felten (11/1/12)

the absorbed water would add to the weight


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## [email protected] (11/1/12)

manticle said:


> Can you elaborate?



I think dent may be referring to how easy CaCl2 absorbs moisture from the air - aka Damprid.
So when you weigh it you may in fact be weighing a certain amount of water already absorbed into the crystal.


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## manticle (11/1/12)

If that's true, how would a teaspoon (presumably prone to the same) be any more accurate? Maybe a 2gm weight won't give an accurate ppm result (but that isn't my point - my point is consistency between brews - 2 g should equal 2g more easily than 1 tsp = 1 tsp and the moisture absorption won't be affected by what you use to measure) but it won't be less accurate than a tsp measure by default.


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## [email protected] (11/1/12)

manticle said:


> If that's true, how would a teaspoon (presumably prone to the same) be any more accurate? Maybe a 2gm weight won't give an accurate ppm result (but that isn't my point - my point is consistency between brews - 2 g should equal 2g more easily than 1 tsp = 1 tsp and the moisture absorption won't be affected by what you use to measure) but it won't be less accurate than a tsp measure by default.



I agree, i always measure my salt additions with scales, 0.01g accuracy.
It gives a lot more control over repeatably that's for sure, as you said earlier you can get a decent set for pretty cheap these days.

I keep my salts very well sealed, so i am not too worried about weighing absorbed moisture.


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## Deebo (11/1/12)

Can anyone recommend somewhere to get a Good Filter? (not sure if I want to go full RO or just use a bit of carbon to make the water taste a bit better)


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## dent (11/1/12)

manticle said:


> If that's true, how would a teaspoon (presumably prone to the same) be any more accurate? Maybe a 2gm weight won't give an accurate ppm result (but that isn't my point - my point is consistency between brews - 2 g should equal 2g more easily than 1 tsp = 1 tsp and the moisture absorption won't be affected by what you use to measure) but it won't be less accurate than a tsp measure by default.



I find if I leave some CaCl2 crystals around eventually they collect so much water to form a puddle of liquid around them, related to time and presumably humidity - that will be what stuffs the consistency. Water is pretty heavy. Also interesting (and irrelevant) to note how much heat anhydrous crystals will generate as you dissolve them in water as a fairly concentrated solution - 100g in 500ml water will actually get pretty hot. I made this solution for my water additions after getting tired of smashing my moist CaCl2 crystals apart.

I agree it is splitting hairs and not at all important though.


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## eamonnfoley (11/1/12)

To quote from "Brewing Better Beer" by Gordon Strong,

"If you are measuring using teaspoons instead of gram scales, then you can use the following approximations when trying to hit certain a ion concentration:

CaS04 adds about 59ppm Ca and 141ppm SO4 per tsp (in 5 gallons)
CaCO3 adds about 38ppm CA and 57 ppm CO3 per tsp (in 5 gallons)
CaCl2 adds about 61ppm CA and 107ppm Cl2 per tsp (in 5 gallons)"

He goes onto to explain they are not completely accurate due to how finely ground the salts are, moisture, etc, etc, but it will get you in the ballpark. And that's all you need with a water profile. I doubt a beer with 100ppm SO4 will taste any different to one with 150ppm. On CYBI they never seem to get info on amounts of salts added to the recipes, but they so often nail them because they know roughly what water profile to aim for.


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## Thirsty Boy (12/1/12)

MHB said:


> I used to feel that way about Chalk to, but will add a caveat, have had a couple of long hard discussions with Gough (Shawn) about his Wild Thing Imperial Stout, mate I was way wrong on that one, Chalk makes a big difference to beers with a shed load of Roast and other dark malt/grain in them.
> The difference being like a barbwire pull-through verses silky smooth.
> Its worth having a look at the interrelation between Carbonate and Phosphate and the role that plays in mash pH, but only for very dark beers.
> Otherwise, complete waste of time adding chalk.
> MHB



Funnily enough - i think the wild thing has a detectable and unpleasant carbonate taste (have glass in hand as I type to make sure memory is not faulty) Its a great beer, but IMO it would be better without, or with significantly less of, the carbonates. It certainly makes a difference to dark beers - but not one that i think is good. Its just that dark beers are able to carry that profile without being bloody horrible; and bugger all else can.

Perhaps they can be used to make a dark beer smoother - but I think its going to take a dab hand to make that true without also spoiling the beer with the carbonates themselves. I think malt choice can do everything for smoothness that salt additions can, and not have things taste like they were made from crappy bore water.


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## Dazza88 (10/3/12)

I wish to brew a bo pils today (Wey bo pils, a little carapils, wheat and Saaz, s189), bought some RO water (one of those nabropure self serve dispensers) and plan going 75% RO to 25% north brissy Tap. It appears i need CaCl2 but i dont have it.

Q1. Can u get CaCl2 easily from a chemist etc? I won't be driving to Craftbrewer etc today. 

Q2. Why is CaCl2 addition suggested to get Ca to 25 ppm for pils (net reading) when pilsen water profiles (brew software) say 7ppm? 

Q3. Higher concern - getting Ca up or keeping suphate low?

Q4. If i used gypsum, and higher sulphates, can i partially counteract this by dropping ibus a little? 

My cals tell me the water mix will give (Pil ref in brackets): 


Ca - 6.25 (7)
SO4 - 11.5 (5)
Mg - 2.5 (2)
Na - 8 (2)
Cl - 15 (5)
Carb (co3?) - 25 (15)

This is based on RO having 0 and brisbane water from BABBS nomograph default levels (i.e divide Bris levels by 4). 

So i seem to be close with this water to pils but my reading suggest the need to get Ca to 25 ish. 

I have gypsum, but reading tells me not to add that to keep suphate down in such a beer. 

My wife is hitting the chemist now to ask for CaCl2, otherwise i think i will leave out the salt additions. 

Any advice appreciated.


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## manticle (10/3/12)

Calcium is good for things like yeast health and getting good mash efficiency. Chloride is good at pushing malt profile. If you are aiming for reasonably stylistically accurate (according to the ol' bjcp anyway) bo-pils then sulphate bitterness is out of place - you want soft bitterness (still pronounced) to complement the malt profile.

That's my understanding. Still a complex topic that I don't feel completely confident in my level of knowledge so hope that helps.


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## Dazza88 (10/3/12)

That's a good summary, thx manticle. 

Calcium chloride for next time then.


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## clarkey7 (10/3/12)

Dazdog,

The BABBs nomograph is very out of date. We'll be working on that soon.

The latest yearly avg 2010-2011 numbers for Brisbane are below:

Calcium (ppm)	Magnesium (ppm)	Alkalinity as CaCO3	Sodium (ppm)	Chloride (ppm)	Sulfate (ppm)	Water pH
24	10	70	34	49	40	7.8

From here: Qld Urban Utilities Water Quality Data

I would just brew it without the salts this time. If you're really worried about calcium add a small amount of Gypsum to your mash and proceed, but understand your adding SO4.
The higher concern is mash pH, then having enough calcium, but for Pilsen water - not a biggy, in fact sources conflict a lot for water profiles, but near distilled H2O is always used to describe pilsen water.

Your mash pH (and final beer pH) will be fine with your brisbane water cut with RO in the dilution you described with the bo pils grist. Palmers latest spreadsheet with the latest brisbane water figures in a 75% dilution with RO plugged in says your RA = 14, Ca = 6ppm).

If you added 1 g of gypsum to a 13L strike water mash your calcium goes up to 25ppm with a -1 RA, but the sulphate goes to 53...Cl 12 - your call.

Good luck...Water to sparge is the same dilution ??

Dunno about sourcing CaCl2.

PB





DazDog said:


> I wish to brew a bo pils today (Wey bo pils, a little carapils, wheat and Saaz, s189), bought some RO water (one of those nabropure self serve dispensers) and plan going 75% RO to 25% north brissy Tap. It appears i need CaCl2 but i dont have it.
> 
> Q1. Can u get CaCl2 easily from a chemist etc? I won't be driving to Craftbrewer etc today.
> 
> ...


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## Nick JD (10/3/12)

Plzen water.

Ca++= 10ppm
Mg++= 3ppm
Na+ = 3ppm
HCO3- = 3ppm
SO4- = 4ppm
Cl- = 4ppm


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## dr K (10/3/12)

Generally speaking salt additions are not going to make too much difference, on balance, unless you overdo it in which case there will be a negative thing happening.
Calcium is the big one and rule of thumb is sulphate for hop, chloride for malt/smooth and carbonate to reduce astringency from roasts.
Thirsty Boy hits the nail on the head about overuse of Calcium Carbonate (chalk) in the final beer.
I ahve had excellent results following kai troesters method of dissoling Calcium Carbonate in carbonated water before use, rather tha trustin g the mash pH, but beter results by not mashing roasted grains at all, indeed I have gone so far as not mashing crystal grains either, the sparge picks up everything you want and nothing you don't!

K


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## manticle (10/3/12)

dr K - do you mean adding dark/roast grains late into the mash or with the sparge?

I have been experimenting with steeping roast grains cold overnight, bringing that slowly to mash temp (so as to not to throw out temps) then adding in at last step (either end of mash/mashout or 72 glycoprotein rest). No need for carbonate additions and seems to have a very smooth result. Need to do it more often to know for sure but got another lot steeping at the moment for my third crack at this method.


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## Brewers Choice (11/3/12)

Hi all. If you are in need of any of the Brewing salts, they are in stock at the Brewers Choice Enoggera store (07 3855 8800). 

Current stock includes:
Calcium Sulphate

Calcium Chloride 

Magnesium Sulphate

Calcium Carbonate

The other Brewers Choice stores will carry these items as well.

All items also available at the webshop at http://www.brewerschoice.com.au/online-sho...-additives.html


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## dr K (11/3/12)

> dr K - do you mean adding dark/roast grains late into the mash or with the sparge?


With the sparge
the advantage of this method (and its far from perfect) is that you do no not have to complicate your mash salt additions by compensating for the wide range of acidity and acridity that roast garins may add
i would probably add calcium chloride (this is a dark beer) to about 200ppm, quite a bit really to the mash (just chuck it in with the cracked grain, and yes, my addition would cover both mash and sparge and just before sparge add the milled roast on top of the bed and sparge through, for a slightly more complex flavour profiile (in this dark beer) it may help to mash a small amount of pale chocolate

K


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## RdeVjun (11/3/12)

dr K said:


> With the sparge
> the advantage of this method (and its far from perfect) is that you do no not have to complicate your mash salt additions by compensating for the wide range of acidity and acridity that roast garins may add
> i would probably add calcium chloride (this is a dark beer) to about 200ppm, quite a bit really to the mash (just chuck it in with the cracked grain, and yes, my addition would cover both mash and sparge and just before sparge add the milled roast on top of the bed and sparge through, for a slightly more complex flavour profiile (in this dark beer) it may help to mash a small amount of pale chocolate


Did just this today, pretty much word for word except for the pale choc, made life very simple and worked rather efficiently, so thanks K. :icon_cheers: 

Probably f*cked it though by foolishly bunging that hot wort in a no- chill cube, some old habits do die hard...


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## Dazza88 (12/3/12)

Thank you to all who replied to my questions, particularly pocket beers.


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