# Nomograph Application



## Jye (27/5/09)

The recent BN waterganza finally got my ass into gear to write a nomograph application Ive been thinking about for a while. It should make it easier to work out water adjustments without going back and forth between software and redrawing the nomograph.

http://www.babbrewers.com/water
Click on the *Mash pH Nomograph* link.

Thanks to Chad and Bonj for testing and hosting it on BABBs :beer: 

Cheers
Jye


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## NickB (27/5/09)

You bloody nerd Jye....and conspiring with that long-haired nerd Bonj... Tut Tut....




.......





Actuallly, bloody good idea!

Hope to catch up with you soon mate 

Cheers!


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## Chad (27/5/09)

Just to add, if anyone is having issues with the page not displaying correctly or not at all, just post a screenshot and a description and we'll see what we can do to fix it. We're only amateurs at this, so we can't guarantee anything 
Also, the base values that are on it are the last known Brisbane water values.


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## Doc (27/5/09)

Great job Jye.
Now I have to get off my arse and dig out my old drawn ones to work out my water again 

Doc


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## jayse (27/5/09)

Thats cool, nice work.


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## Fourstar (27/5/09)

Ive just recently started using the Nomograph to get my watyer additions down pat as i had a feeling i was doing thins incorrectly.. more importantly adding ALL of my salts for my expected final volume into the mash.. wchih would probabaly multipy the ppm reading x3~.

Question: (i hope it aint confusing). When calcuating water in beersmith. i usually do it to the Final Volume. Im assuming this is incorrect according to Jamil and JP's statements in the waterganza. ive also been adding all of my salts to the mash water = to the final post-boil volume, which i also believe is incorrect.

For example, assume im brewing a stout that will have a RA of 300ppm. when refering to the nomograph i would be adding the required salt/minerals (Ca, Mg, HCO3) to my mash water to reach the required ppm content laid out in the nomograph to reach said RA at the end of the mash. Is that correct? In other words, i only add enough salts per L to give my mash the minerals as stated by the nomograph? Or should this be the final BOIL volume PPM in the water??

I then assume after the mash and sparge with my full kettle volume i then divide the original mash water mineral content by my mash literage. This will then give me my ppm reading per L of water. I then simply calculate my 2nd salt additions for the full boil volume minus my mash water in the kettle using the same mineral reading per ppm:L used in the mash liquor?

so if my mash water was 8L @ Ca 50 Mg 10 HCO3 300

This would be a figure per L Ca 6.25, Mg 1.25, HCO3 37.5 ppm

I then * these figures by my sparge water IN the kettle (not accounting for absorption by the grain) = 22 (reaching a boil volume if 30L) which gives me my 2nd salt additions.

would that be correct?

I guess the otehr option is i can always work it out in beer smith = to 30L then calculate it down for my mash figure. i just sucks taht all the salts all aint powders as they dont really blend well. Mg SO4 is pellets, Gypsum is powder, CaCl is flakes etc. damn annoying.

Or does nayojne else have a better format?


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## fraser_john (28/5/09)

Well done, I have been using Palmers spreadsheet and though I kind of understand what is going on, the visual interpretation of it is very helpful!

Given I start with rainwater each time (essentially no ions) its an easy way of me targeting what I want given the color of the beer I am brewing.

Probably hear about this page on one of Jamils shows now!

Bonj, you need to supply some stats about the international IP's that are visiting the site 

John


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## Supra-Jim (28/5/09)

Very tidy and useful bit of kit there Jye, nice work!

Cheers SJ


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## Sammus (28/5/09)

don't wanna rain on anyones parade, but what's the go with a computerised nomograph? I understand it makes for easier calculation if you don't have a computer, but what's this do that, for example, the beersmith water chemistry calculator doesnt? (apart from draw pretty lines )


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## AndrewQLD (28/5/09)

That is totally awesome Jye. 
Much easier to use and understand than the spreadsheet.
Is there any chance it can be downloaded and used without having to go online?

Andrew


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## fraser_john (28/5/09)

Sammus said:


> don't wanna rain on anyones parade, but what's the go with a computerised nomograph? I understand it makes for easier calculation if you don't have a computer, but what's this do that, for example, the beersmith water chemistry calculator doesnt? (apart from draw pretty lines )



I don't use Beesmith, but Promash instead and though it does have the water chemistry form, it does not indicate whether or not the RA is going to be within range of the SRM of the final beer. So its a method of visually double checking.


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## Jye (28/5/09)

Thanks for the comments guys, JP also like it and called it 'slick' 



Fourstar said:


> hese figures by my sparge water IN the kettle (not accounting for absorption by the grain) = 22 (reaching a boil volume if 30L) which gives me my 2nd salt additions.
> 
> would that be correct?
> 
> ...



Sounds like you have it figured out now. You really only need to add enough salts for the mash water and add them directly to the mash, the already reduced pH due to the grain will help them dissolve. If you want to add more salts for flavour (sulphate and chloride) then add them to the boil. But that gets tricky since you dont know what has already been absorbed by the grain in the mash. 

I generally go on the lower side for additions and wouldnt go to the extremes of adding more to the boil. Brisbane water (the preset values in the app) is already pretty good for malty amber beers so my main adjustments are for colour and not flavour.

A generally comment, it looks like you have MgSO4 but I wouldnt use it. You will get your required Mg from the grain and too much can give you the shits 



Sammus said:


> don't wanna rain on anyones parade, but what's the go with a computerised nomograph? I understand it makes for easier calculation if you don't have a computer, but what's this do that, for example, the beersmith water chemistry calculator doesnt? (apart from draw pretty lines )



As mentioned before BS doesnt give you the RA and brewing colour range.



AndrewQLD said:


> Is there any chance it can be downloaded and used without having to go online?
> 
> Andrew



Sorry Andrew but not at the moment, maybe a bit later


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## fraser_john (28/5/09)

Jye,

any chance of doing the V.Malty/Malty/Balanced/Bitter/V.Bitter indicator using the ratio of chlorides to sulphates? Would be kind of cool to have that on the same application, maybe a dial gauge or something.

John


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## joecast (28/5/09)

good stuff! :icon_cheers: 
any more brewing geek stuff is welcome. nice job!
joe


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## Jye (28/5/09)

fraser_john said:


> Bonj, you need to supply some stats about the international IP's that are visiting the site



Chad is the one who is hosting it on the BABBs site and he mentioned tonight its had about 60 hits so far. Not huge but I haven't posted this any where else. If someone is active on The BN forum feel free to post the link.



fraser_john said:


> any chance of doing the V.Malty/Malty/Balanced/Bitter/V.Bitter indicator using the ratio of chlorides to sulphates? Would be kind of cool to have that on the same application, maybe a dial gauge or something.



Could be done but I dont think there are any agreed ratios and if I made them up then I would be inflicting my opinion  Sort of the same reason why I dont have restriction on the level of salts or minerals, its up to the user to know what are the correct amounts and negative out comes for going over.


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## Fourstar (29/5/09)

Jye said:


> A generally comment, it looks like you have MgSO4 but I wouldnt use it. You will get your required Mg from the grain and too much can give you the shits



Cheers Jye, Mg is only an issue in high concentrations. the amounts im adding (around 20ppm) are pretty safe. you need 100+ppm to have an issue with having the trots.. in med concentrations 50ppm~ it can make the beer taste bitter-lemonish (like hot lemon rind).

My local water has <2ppm Mg so the chances of me going overboard are pretty slim. 1 Tsp give me 20ppm in 30L. Ive never used anymore than that with no ill-effects. The only Q is, how much am i extracting from the grain? 5ppm?!?! who knows.

The onyl times ive used it are in dark beers to help cancel out some of the Ca when adding HCO3 so i can get some sulfate in there.

Cheers!


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## Bizier (30/5/09)

That is absolutely bloody awesome Jye (& Bonj).
I have always looked at Palmer's nomographs and thought there has to be a more intuitive way, and you have nailed it.


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## Jye (27/6/09)

Hows everyone find it? any mods?

So far Ive used it for designing water for 2 brews and found it a piece of cake.


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## MCT (27/6/09)

Coincidence, I am using it right now. 
Love it mate, makes it so easy.


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## AndrewQLD (27/6/09)

Jye said:


> Hows everyone find it? any mods?
> 
> So far Ive used it for designing water for 2 brews and found it a piece of cake.



It looks great Jye, but my brewputer is not connected to the internet so I haven't really been able to give it a whirl, I'll load up beersmith to my office computer and run my next couple of brews through there and compare them to Palmers Residual alkalinity calculator results. 
I still wish this was in downloadable format so I could have it permanently on my Brewputer B) .

I'll let you know how it goes next week.

Andrew


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## fraser_john (14/5/10)

Page dead?


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## Chad (14/5/10)

I'm already onto it. Found this out the other day. My web server provider has recently upgraded their infrastructure and a few things are currently not working.


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## Chad (17/5/10)

Sorry for the delay guys, but just finally got everything back up and running. http://nomograph.babbrewers.com

My host ISP did a shocking job at the transition to their new server infrastructure and I had a million broken things to fix. They did give me a hand to get things running again.


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## BjornJ (17/5/10)

That is awesome, thanks a million!

Brilliant app, any chance of a downloadable copy of it?

 

thanks
Bjorn


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## TidalPete (17/5/10)

Chad said:


> Sorry for the delay guys, but just finally got everything back up and running. http://nomograph.babbrewers.com



Sorry to say that it's not working for me Chad.  
Windows XP with Internet Explorer 8. JAVA Standard Edition Version 6 Update 20 (Build 1.6.0_20-b02).
Wouldn't mind a downloadable copy too if that's at all possible? :beer: 

TP


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## fraser_john (18/5/10)

Not loading, sits there with the java circle going round'n'round

Firefox 3.6.2
Java 6 Standard

<start edit>

Just installed release 20 of Java 6, getting a little further, but still not working, see second image

<end edit>


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## felten (18/5/10)

I've always had the same problem as above, using firefox and IE, BEFORE the transition. But it works for me now (after a longish load).

Nice work.


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## Chad (18/5/10)

Just tested again and it's still loading. Using Firefox 3.5 and IE 8.0


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## Jye (18/5/10)

Working here with chrome.

There are no future plans for a downloadable app


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## therook (19/5/10)

Definitely not working for me.

Hmmmmm


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## TidalPete (19/5/10)

Chad said:


> Just tested again and it's still loading. Using Firefox 3.5 and IE 8.0



Still no joy with IE8 here.  
Java loads but screen is blank except for the BABBS heading on top.

TP


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## Ross (19/5/10)

TidalPete said:


> Still no joy with IE8 here.
> Java loads but screen is blank except for the BABBS heading on top.
> 
> TP



+1


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## randyrob (19/5/10)

Jye said:


> Working here with chrome.
> 
> There are no future plans for a downloadable app



I'd be happy to look into coding a downloadable version, that is if you guys were open to it

Cheers Rob.


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## Fourstar (19/5/10)

Running Firefox 3.6.3
Running Java Console 1.6.0_17

She loads! :icon_cheers: 

i know there was an issue with firefox no longer supporting certain add ons for java.

try uninstalling ALL the java addons Tools> add ons

Then updating firefox to the current version and give that a crack. If it requires any updates, update and she should work.


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## Fourstar (19/5/10)

randyrob said:


> I'd be happy to look into coding a downloadable version, that is if you guys were open to it
> 
> Cheers Rob.




surely it would'nt be too difficult to pop some java into a java app.


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## Howlingdog (19/5/10)

Not working


Jye said:


> Working here with chrome.
> 
> There are no future plans for a downloadable app




Not working with chrome either - maybe latest java update is the problem?


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## MCT (19/5/10)

I'm getting the same problems as above, just installed java after a clean install.


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## BjornJ (25/5/10)

it works when disabling your latest version of Java, instructions here:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;#entry635443 
(post 12)

thanks
Bjorn


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## Jye (26/5/10)

randyrob said:


> I'd be happy to look into coding a downloadable version, that is if you guys were open to it
> 
> Cheers Rob.



Please do not. 

I have not asked JPs permission to reproduce his nomograph in a downloadable app. 

*I also would not appreciate someone else reproducing my work.*


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## Jye (28/7/10)

I have rebuilt the Nomograph using 1.6.0_21 and it has been running fine on Chrome, Mozilla and Explorer. If you are having any problems with it please try updating java (java.com), if that doesnt work then let me know.

And big ups to Chad for doing the BABBs side of things :beer: 

Cheers
Jye


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## Screwtop (28/7/10)

Jye said:


> I have rebuilt the Nomograph using 1.6.0_21 and it has been running fine on Chrome, Mozilla and Explorer. If you are having any problems with it please try updating java (java.com), if that doesnt work then let me know.
> 
> And big ups to Chad for doing the BABBs side of things :beer:
> 
> ...




Thanks Jye and thanks Chad

Screwy


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## Margwar (28/7/10)

Thanks for all the work that you guys have put into this... awesome stuff.

I was just reading the PH chapter in "how to brew" today too.

I have my water report and it says that:

Ca mean = 4.6mg/L
Mg mean = 1.2mg/L
Alkalinity = 17mg/L

Does this equate to 4.6ppm and so on?

These seem really low when I compare this to the water profile table in "How to Brew"...? Does that mean we have good water here in Melb and that I can make awesome Pilsners?
I put the figures in the chart and the Mash PH comes up around 5.7. So I am guessing that this is good, from my short reading, for Pale Ale's and Ambers...

From there if I want to make a darker beer I would have to add stuff, NaHCO3 looks like it will take the PH up quickly with the water that I have.

If anyone can clear this up for me it would be greatly appreciated. I would really like to start getting the water right now in my brews.

Thanks, Dietz


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## unrealeous (28/7/10)

Dietz said:


> Does this equate to 4.6ppm and so on?


Yes

http://www.unitconversion.org/unit_convert...olution-ex.html


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## Bribie G (28/7/10)

Anybody in the Moreton Bay Region know where I can get a water report - in my case Bribie Island? When we were Caboolture Shire their eyes glazed over and you could see them praying inwardly "Please beam up this weird annoying person, God". 
Maybe things have improved hereabouts?

The nearest I got was to actually talk to the treatment plant where they said that if I provided a sample they could do one, for $130 (Bribie has a bit of a cocktail from mainland and island bores). Not holding out much hope but you never know.


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## therook (28/7/10)

BribieG said:


> Anybody in the Moreton Bay Region know where I can get a water report - in my case Bribie Island? When we were Caboolture Shire their eyes glazed over and you could see them praying inwardly "Please beam up this weird annoying person, God".
> Maybe things have improved hereabouts?
> 
> The nearest I got was to actually talk to the treatment plant where they said that if I provided a sample they could do one, for $130 (Bribie has a bit of a cocktail from mainland and island bores). Not holding out much hope but you never know.




Hey Bribie, why do you want to start messing with salts etc when I am told you already brew excellent beers.?

Rook


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## Online Brewing Supplies (28/7/10)

BribieG said:


> Anybody in the Moreton Bay Region know where I can get a water report - in my case Bribie Island? When we were Caboolture Shire their eyes glazed over and you could see them praying inwardly "Please beam up this weird annoying person, God".
> Maybe things have improved hereabouts?
> 
> The nearest I got was to actually talk to the treatment plant where they said that if I provided a sample they could do one, for $130 (Bribie has a bit of a cocktail from mainland and island bores). Not holding out much hope but you never know.


If you are dead in 50 years your waters not good :lol: 
GB


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## Bribie G (28/7/10)

Haha thanks guys. I get good results with the old "Hop driven / German Pils/ Aussie chuck in a spoonful of gypsum and a spoonful of epsom salts" - " Malt driven chuck in a spoonful of Calcium Carbonate and a teaspoon of Calcium Chloride" otherwise if unsure just put in some 5.2. and don't worry if I forget to do so :lol: 

However getting more into Euro beers such as Helles and I wouldn't mind a bit more fine tuning than the above :icon_cheers:


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## Chad (28/7/10)

BribieG said:


> Anybody in the Moreton Bay Region know where I can get a water report - in my case Bribie Island?


You need to check out the Water page on the BABBs website; http://www.babbrewers.com/water  
It now has a link to the SEQ Water Grid site. http://www.seqwgm.qld.gov.au/Water-quality...ty-results.aspx


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## Bribie G (28/7/10)

Ah great, thanks Anna Bligh


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## nifty (23/9/10)

This is a great application, really easy to use and makes water calcs very simple, thanks guys. I wish I had got on to this before now.

I don't know if this has been mentioned before but I see that the "Effective Hardness" notes list a special ingredient that might need to be changed - 





I've had hair of the dog in my beer, but not this...


cheers

nifty


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## fraser_john (14/1/12)

On Unbuntu Chrome and Firefox, I get the following. I have reinstalled the current Java for firefox too and updated the link for the plugin.


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## Jye (14/1/12)

Ill look into it FJ. I havent update Ubuntu for a while so Ill update everything and see if I can replicate the error.

I also have a HTML5 version of the application which I would like to upload but have been unable to get in contact with Palmer for his permission. If anyone has a direct link to him feel free to ask him or getting him to shoot me a PM. 

Cheers
Jye


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## kieran (14/1/12)

Jye said:


> I also have a HTML5 version of the application which I would like to upload



:beerbang: 
HTML5 all the way..


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## Jye (15/1/12)

fraser_john, On a clean install of Ubuntu 11.10, with updated FF and Chrome I get the same error. I could not find a simple way of solving the security warning so I removed OpenJDK/IcedTea and installed Oracle (Sun) Java 6 JRE. Follow the below links for info and how tos.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Java
http://www.duinsoft.nl/packages.php?t=en



kieran said:


> :beerbang:
> HTML5 all the way..



Indeed! 

If anyone can get me in contact with Palmer I have a HTML5 version, Chrome app and Android app to release.

Cheers
Jye


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## fraser_john (16/1/12)

Jye said:


> fraser_john, On a clean install of Ubuntu 11.10, with updated FF and Chrome I get the same error. I could not find a simple way of solving the security warning so I removed OpenJDK/IcedTea and installed Oracle (Sun) Java 6 JRE. Follow the below links for info and how tos.
> 
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Java
> http://www.duinsoft.nl/packages.php?t=en
> ...



Good one Jye! I had to reinstall 11.10 as my upgrade from 10.4 failed and locked up the partition on boot for some odd reason. 


Anyway, the duinsoft instructions worked perfect. Thanks!


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## Jye (16/1/12)

Haha similar thing happened to me hence the clean instal.


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## fraser_john (17/1/12)

Jye said:


> Haha similar thing happened to me hence the clean instal.



Wonder if it is a problem with the upgrade path? Any way, thanks.


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## TidalPete (10/2/12)

fraser_john said:


> Wonder if it is a problem with the upgrade path? Any way, thanks.



Waiting with bated breath here for Jye's off-line version to get the OK from John Palmer.
This is a great brewing tool that deserves more recognition. :beerbang: 

TP


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## fraser_john (11/2/12)

It would be great if it could be incorporated into ProMash and Beersmith as part of their water profile components!


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## Jye (11/2/12)

fraser_john said:


> It would be great if it could be incorporated into ProMash and Beersmith as part of their water profile components!



That would be cool.

Are there any BN guys out there with contact to JP?


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## Jye (7/6/12)

Hey Brewers,

Come December 20, 2012 this app will no longer work in its current form 

It was built using JavaFX 1.2 and Oracle announced at the beginning of the year the server providing access to the JavaFX Runtime will no longer be available. I can rebuild it in JavaFX 2.0 but really dont want to since I have made a version in HTML5 already.

I've tried to get in contact with Palmer to seek permission to release the HTML5 version but have been unsuccessful. If anyone can get in contact with him before the end of the year that would be great... otherwise the app dead.

Cheers
Jye


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## Parks (8/6/12)

The guys at basic brewing radio may be able to help get you in touch?

https://www.facebook.com/basicbrewing

They seem to chat to hiim pretty often on their podcast.


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