# Calcium Sulphate 101



## Online Brewing Supplies

This will be an ongoing thread dedicated to Calcium Sulphate in brewing.
Feel free to add any reliable content, please reference the source of the article.
Nev

Calcium Sulphate (Gypsum) is used to "harden" the process water or as a direct additive to the malt mash or kettle wort .The benefit comes from the Calcium ion.
The sulphate ion is harmful to the wort quality as a source of sulfur for the production of sulfur dioxide during fermentation, and forms hydrogen sulfide and other obnoxious sulfur compounds.

Gypsum is the cheapest and most accessible source of Calcium.

As already noted for Calcium and phosphate, the addition of calcium to the malt mash removes phosphates, the most desirable mash buffering agents.This can be overcome by withholding gypsum from the malt mash, its addition in water and cereal cooker formulations, and adding appropriate calcium to the "sparge water".

Gypsum added to the sparge water reduces solubility of husk poly-phenols in the malt mash. This improves wort and beer flavor, as well as the flavor and physical stability of the finished beer.
The flavor stability can be readily recognized by comparing the tastes of treated versus untreated worts and "glattwassers".

Phosphates from malt are the most important and effective buffering compound in the brewing process and are necessary for normal fermentation's.
[Hardwick W. A . handbook of brewing]


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## Bribie G

So the brewers at Burton on Trent (Calcium Sulphate and Magnesium Sulphate in the water supply) were doing it all wrong?
I note that the book was published in 1994 and appears to be out of print, Book Depository are out of stock.


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## kahlerisms

I welcome more posts on brewing salts - I've just started playing with them in the last six months. . 
I'd suggest you have another skim over your post though, it's a little difficult to follow.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Its here for $449.00 have seen it for half that,
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=0os_gIvG_ccC&printsec=frontcover&dq=handbook+of+brewing&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-JsAUaDGOcrMmAXsmYCABA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ
It would appear that the BOT brewers could have done it better but back when they where at their peak they probably didnt have the science to know what was happening.
Only my thoughts, not science or accurate history.
Nev


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## Online Brewing Supplies

kahlerisms said:


> I welcome more posts on brewing salts - I've just started playing with them in the last six months. .
> I'd suggest you have another skim over your post though, it's a little difficult to follow.


So is the book but quoted as written but probably a little pre reading missing.
Could not copy and paste so had to be typed and I am not the best at that.
Check out the link above it has a bit more text if you google "solubility of gypsum mash"
Nev


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## manticle

I find this idea interesting. Any idea of what ppm level of sulphate is likely to create problems and does it tie in with other recommended levels (Fix, Boulton et al etc)?

Much word in that text in regards to sulphate effect on bitterness perception and hop profile?


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## drsmurto

Sulphate does indeed get converted to sulphite and sulphide by the yeast as part of the synthesis of the sulphur containing amino acids, cysteine and methionine. To say this is harmful is odd given this process is essential to yeast metabolism. Yeast will only release sulphite or sulphide back into the matrix if there is insufficient nitrogen available to synthesise the amino acids. Which is why winemakers and brewers (sometimes) add a nitrogen rich yeast nutrient.

The problem with discussing the calcium ion by itself is that you ignore the complexity of the wort matrix and the synergistic effects of other ions; organic and inorganic.


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## big78sam

http://www.melbournebrewers.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=114:key-concepts-in-water-treatment&catid=48:ingredients&Itemid=103

This is what I refer to when looming at water treatment. It's a really good summary for the non chemist that contains info about Calcium sulphate and other salts for brewing.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Gypsum added to the sparge water reduces solubility of husk poly-phenols in the malt mash. This improves wort and beer flavor, as well as the flavor and physical stability of the finished beer.

[Hardwick W. A . handbook of brewing]
Its the above that does not often get a mention but is of importance.
Nev


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## mje1980

Nev, how much in the sparge water per litre do you recommend?. I have pretty soft water, and usually add balanced amounts of calchl and gypsum for balanced beers if that helps.


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## Thirsty Boy

I think much (not all) of that first quote is about Calcium in general rather than specifically Calcium Sulphate

Specifically the reduction of mash phosphates (the badness of which is debatable because thats one of the mechanisms by which wort pH is reduced to desirable levels and I would have thought that was in fact good??) and also the notion of adding it to sparge water to reduce polyphenol extraction - this is just a mechanism to combat increasing pH as the sparge progresses and Calcium Chloride would do the same thing, as would reducing the pH of the sparge water by acidfying it.

That quote refers to gypsum (calcium sulphate) specifically for those purposes, mostly I think because it also states that Gypsum is the cheapest and most available source of calcium. So it assumes gypsum is what you will be using, rather than asserting that it is what you must use, to achieve the same end result.

One of the sources from which I draw this information/form this opinion is "Handbook of Brewing", Priest.F and Stewart. G, pp 107-121 but its in pretty much all the good brewing books in their water section.


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## mje1980

Ok cool, I might add some chl to my sparge water on my next mild. Might try a little bit, say 1/2 a gram per litre for a start and see if I can taste/notice a difference.


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## Lurks

big78sam said:


> http://www.melbournebrewers.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=114:key-concepts-in-water-treatment&catid=48:ingredients&Itemid=103
> 
> This is what I refer to when looming at water treatment. It's a really good summary for the non chemist that contains info about Calcium sulphate and other salts for brewing.


If I may. This document kicked off a long series of experiments and refinement in brewing salts that I've obsessed over the last couple of years. There's some good information there for starters. 

If you follow the rough guide to minimum salts, it's quite conservative. The first order of business is to find out what your water is like. Mine is Cardinia reservoir in Melbourne. Melbourne Water do quite comprehensive water quality reports, some others in Melbourne I've seen miss out some things we care about like Chloride. Bottom line is that the highland reservoirs that service a lot of Melbourne are very soft indeed, enough that it's a real problem for mash pH and possibly even as far as yeast nutrient (my water has virtually no magnesium at all).

Armed with the figures from your local water, you can then use one of the various excel sheets that some folks have knocked up to calculate salt additions. This one is one I like in particular: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

The sheet above goes on mineral ranges given by Palmer. What I've managed to work out is this: the Calcium level and mash pH is the critical point. There's another load of stuff about the ratio of chloride to sulphate which some people claim has an effect of enhancing bitterness/hops and malt, respectively. Other brewers of note (with letters after their name) have called this into question.

Let's just suppose you believe that, then what you do is vary the ratio of calcium chloride and calcium sulphate according to the recipe, or just aim for something called 'balanced' and be happy. In general, calcium chloride seems more useful and you'll use more of it than sulphate.

For light beers, even the salts may not be enough to get the pH in the range and a bit of acid (lactic, phosphoric or acidulated malt) may be necessary. I've found you can get out of the pH range even on something of the gravity of Smurto's Golden Ale, say, and a touch of acid is needed.

This also means that's it's helpful to put all the salts in the mash, and not split up to the sparge water. Purely so that it has the best pH lowering effect (for light beers). Again the sheet linked above does a cracking job of helping make the choice between the two.

One oddity of that sheet is the pH range. I think there's more support for having a mash pH in the 5.2 region than 5.4 to 5.6, largely for other reasons which are beneficial to the brew.

Anyway, when I moved my mash to 5.2, balanced my salts using this sheet, it had a considerable impact on my efficiency, clarity of beer and even how fast the yeast kicked off (possibly due to a slight addition of epsom salts to get magnesium in range). This is of course anecdotal and I don't claim to be some authority on this or any other brewing topic.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Chinamat said:


> If I may. This document kicked off a long series of experiments and refinement in brewing salts that I've obsessed over the last couple of years. There's some good information there for starters.
> 
> If you follow the rough guide to minimum salts, it's quite conservative. The first order of business is to find out what your water is like. Mine is Cardinia reservoir in Melbourne. Melbourne Water do quite comprehensive water quality reports, some others in Melbourne I've seen miss out some things we care about like Chloride. Bottom line is that the highland reservoirs that service a lot of Melbourne are very soft indeed, enough that it's a real problem for mash pH and possibly even as far as yeast nutrient (my water has virtually no magnesium at all).
> 
> Armed with the figures from your local water, you can then use one of the various excel sheets that some folks have knocked up to calculate salt additions. This one is one I like in particular: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/
> 
> The sheet above goes on mineral ranges given by Palmer. What I've managed to work out is this: the Calcium level and mash pH is the critical point. There's another load of stuff about the ratio of chloride to sulphate which some people claim has an effect of enhancing bitterness/hops and malt, respectively. Other brewers of note (with letters after their name) have called this into question.
> 
> Let's just suppose you believe that, then what you do is vary the ratio of calcium chloride and calcium sulphate according to the recipe, or just aim for something called 'balanced' and be happy. In general, calcium chloride seems more useful and you'll use more of it than sulphate.
> 
> For light beers, even the salts may not be enough to get the pH in the range and a bit of acid (lactic, phosphoric or acidulated malt) may be necessary. I've found you can get out of the pH range even on something of the gravity of Smurto's Golden Ale, say, and a touch of acid is needed.
> 
> This also means that's it's helpful to put all the salts in the mash, and not split up to the sparge water. Purely so that it has the best pH lowering effect (for light beers). Again the sheet linked above does a cracking job of helping make the choice between the two.
> 
> One oddity of that sheet is the pH range. I think there's more support for having a mash pH in the 5.2 region than 5.4 to 5.6, largely for other reasons which are beneficial to the brew.
> 
> Anyway, when I moved my mash to 5.2, balanced my salts using this sheet, it had a considerable impact on my efficiency, clarity of beer and even how fast the yeast kicked off (possibly due to a slight addition of epsom salts to get magnesium in range). This is of course anecdotal and I don't claim to be some authority on this or any other brewing topic.


I get my mash in the 5.2 pH range and all else falls into place from there. The kettle hot break is always much more if I have the mash pH at 5.2pH.
Nev


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## manticle

mje1980 said:


> Ok cool, I might add some chl to my sparge water on my next mild. Might try a little bit, say 1/2 a gram per litre for a start and see if I can taste/notice a difference.


1/2g per litre sounds like a lot to me mje.

Everyone's water is different but with Melbourne (soft) water, I'm generally adding 4g total calcium salts to mash and 4g total to boil. That's for generally 22 L final vol, starting with around 32 L in the kettle.

Too much can be worse than none in my experience.


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## Yob

Ive been adding my Gypsum at a rate of 300ml of a 100g / 2lt solution (for a pale ale) to my HLT.. a bit of acidulated malt gets the mash to within a poofteenth of 5.2 every time for similar pale grists.

anything wrong with just adding it to the HLT and not the mash/kettle separately?


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## Lurks

Regarding salts in the mash vs sparge water. I measured my sparge run off and I found that after sticking all the salts in the mash, the sparge pH wouldn't rise to a worrying level. So from then on I just forgot about the sparge water and it comes out peachy.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

I think you need to consider sparge water pH in relation to polyphenol extraction in the mash/lauter, so some acidification or salt treatment is advised.
Nev


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## manticle

Depends a little on the water - I was under the impression that WA/Perth water is higher in temporary hardness (ie more alkaline) than places like Sydney or Melbourne.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

manticle said:


> Depends a little on the water - I was under the impression that WA/Perth water is higher in temporary hardness (ie more alkaline) than places like Sydney or Melbourne.


Yes we run about 8pH where I am, yes it does depend on the water, I was generalising.
You need to know the pH of the sparge water first and if need be drop it below 7pH.
If I use RO sparge water I dont worry about pH as its usually around 5.4pH.
Nev


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## mje1980

manticle said:


> 1/2g per litre sounds like a lot to me mje.
> 
> Everyone's water is different but with Melbourne (soft) water, I'm generally adding 4g total calcium salts to mash and 4g total to boil. That's for generally 22 L final vol, starting with around 32 L in the kettle.
> 
> Too much can be worse than none in my experience.


Ok, cool. I add 8g total to my mash for a single batch (20 litres), and our water is soft, so I might try an even smaller amount and see what happens. I really should get a ph meter i suppose, or at least the strips.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

For the mild I make it uses 1/2 tsp (2.5ml) of Gypsum per 23L when using soft water , not sure of the weight of gypsum per tsp ?
Nev


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## ashley_leask

Chinamat said:


> The sheet above goes on mineral ranges given by Palmer. What I've managed to work out is this: the Calcium level and mash pH is the critical point. There's another load of stuff about the ratio of chloride to sulphate which some people claim has an effect of enhancing bitterness/hops and malt, respectively. Other brewers of note (with letters after their name) have called this into question.


I brewed 5 or 6 pilsners in quick succession last year trying different salt addition mixes. I didn't notice much change in the bitterness profile but I do believe now that having that balance strongly on the sulphate side suppresses the malt character significantly. I was much happier with the beers that were balanced or favored the chloride over sulphates. The bitterness is still where it should be depending on the recipe, but allows the malt character to come through as well.


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## ashley_leask

China / Nev / Yob, are you talking about a room temp or mash temp measurement of 5.2? I've never tried below a 5.4 room temp pH, interested in your experiences if you're going that much lower.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Another Ash said:


> China / Nev / Yob, are you talking about a room temp or mash temp measurement of 5.2? I've never tried below a 5.4 room temp pH, interested in your experiences if you're going that much lower.


pH changes with temp so a mash measured at 65c and room temp will be different, to be accurate it needs to be done at mash temp.
There is a deviation on reading of about 0.2-0.3pH I THINK, but dont quote me on that as its not a fixed figure.
My pH meter has a temp compensation setting so I dont have to put that factor in.
Nev


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## ashley_leask

Gryphon Brewing said:


> pH changes with temp so a mash measured at 65c and room temp will be different, to be accurate it needs to be done at mash temp.
> There is a deviation on reading of about 0.2-0.3pH I THINK, but dont quote me on that as its not a fixed figure.
> My pH meter has a temp compensation setting so I dont have to put that factor in.
> Nev


Thanks, I've seen anywhere from .2 to .35 as the correction figure. I've always taken a small sample, cooled and measured. I use 5.4 as a target. Sounds I'm probably close to what you guys are doing.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

You can work it out with your own meter, do a reading at room and one at mash temps and note the difference.
Nev


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## Yob

why bother with the room temp? it's the mash temp thats important yeah?... unless Im missing something.... and often am


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Probes (cheaper) last longer at cooler temps.
Nev


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## Lurks

Another Ash said:


> I brewed 5 or 6 pilsners in quick succession last year trying different salt addition mixes. I didn't notice much change in the bitterness profile but I do believe now that having that balance strongly on the sulphate side suppresses the malt character significantly. I was much happier with the beers that were balanced or favored the chloride over sulphates. The bitterness is still where it should be depending on the recipe, but allows the malt character to come through as well.


This is good to hear, thanks. I haven't had the chance to do a series of experiments on the same beer, nor will I likely ever. I've been shooting for balanced, because I do like my malt and getting bitterness hasn't seemed hard as you say.

I think my next beer (California Common 24L batch with with Melbourne water) will be 4g epsom salt, 6g calcium chloride, 3g calcium sulphate. It'll still need 3ml of phosphoric acid in the mash, or so.

Mat.


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## Lurks

Another Ash said:


> China / Nev / Yob, are you talking about a room temp or mash temp measurement of 5.2? I've never tried below a 5.4 room temp pH, interested in your experiences if you're going that much lower.


My understanding is that the pH is the pH, but your meter is thrown out by temperature right? The temp compensation on leccy pH meters really isn't up for getting something like 60C and what Nev said about making your probe tip last longer sounds wise too. It's trivial to cool down a very small sample to room temp right? Also should be sampled at 15m into the mash.

I have to say, I had only come into the whole 5.2 thing recently, I'd been shooting for 5.4-5.6. 5.2 just isn't doable without acid with my water. I'm hoping this and other brew improvements might finally combat the persistent chill haze I've been having (which I never had with BIAB!) Something to try out tomorrow if my G&G order shows up... <rubs hands with glee>

Mat.


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## manticle

No -actual pH changes with temperature


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## Online Brewing Supplies

That is my understanding too, I will see if I can find a reference to it.
Nev


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## Lurks

Hmm, looks like that is the case too. Learn something new every day.

Well that's a spanner in the works. So the target pH is the mash at mash temperature? I'm guessing someone has discussed this at length somewhere.

Mat.


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## Aydos

Does anyone know the water composition for Brisbane? I would be interested in playing with salts.


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## felten

A.J deLange gives a good summary of mash pH and temperature here.


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## mje1980

What about the stuff you can buy that adjusts your mash to 5.2??. Any good?, would make things easier and more consistent


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## Online Brewing Supplies

mje1980 said:


> What about the stuff you can buy that adjusts your mash to 5.2??. Any good?, would make things easier and more consistent


Fails to do much in Perth water from what I hear.
Nev


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## manticle

Seems to good to be true - that you could just chuck a teaspoon in any old water with any old grains and somehow come up with the magic number. Also I don't know what's in it (some salts and phosphates I believe but what and how much?).

I know some brewers who do use it and say it works well for soft Melbourne water.


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## mje1980

Hmm, I have soft water too. Might give it a go. Bit off topic, but what's a good ph meter to get??


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## bum

manticle said:


> Seems to good to be true - that you could just chuck a teaspoon in any old water with any old grains and somehow come up with the magic number.


Don't ask me to explain how it works (something to do with its conjugate base (whatever that is)) but it acts as a buffer - it essentially stops changes occuring rather than changes one thing to another. That's my _very_ layman's understanding from when I was looking into buying it anyway.

I've used it and found effeciency improvements in smaller beers. Quality improvements? Couldn't really say as I don't usually reapeat any recipes. Having used it, I wouldn't advise anyone else to bother unless there was a specific problem they thought it might fix.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

mje1980 said:


> Hmm, I have soft water too. Might give it a go. Bit off topic, but what's a good ph meter to get??


Try Hanna or Milwaukee with ATC, around $100 if you shop around.
Like this one
Nev


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## mje1980

Thanks guys


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## Thirsty Boy

I've done some experimenting with the 5.2 bufffer you can typically buy - My science wasn't something you'd put your house on statistically.... but in none of the several (benchtop sized) experiments I did (even at more than twice the reccomended dose) did the addition of 5.2 buffering salts to Melbourne tap water, actually buffer a mash to 5.2. It essentially did nothing.

Its designed to buffer mashes done in water with relatively high dissolved solids - I'm not sure it does a lot in soft water..... to be honest I'm not sure it does a lot in any sort of water really.

If you live in Melbourne - stop fretting anyway. Thank your lucky stars you dont live somewhere the water makes you work & stick in 1tspn of Cacl for malty beers, 1 tspn of CaS04 for hoppy beers, 1/2 of each for balanced beers.... and you'll be as near as damn to right. Add an extra 1/2 teaspoon in either direction if your beer would include the word "very" in its malty or hoppy description.

People who live in Perth etc.... continue to fret you poor buggers.


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## stakka82

Thanks tb. I've got both salts now and was waiting for an idiot proof explanation such as the one provided before jumping in.


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## dicko

Thirsty Boy said:


> If you live in Melbourne - stop fretting anyway. Thank your lucky stars you dont live somewhere the water makes you work & stick in 1tspn of Cacl for malty beers, 1 tspn of CaS04 for hoppy beers, 1/2 of each for balanced beers.... and you'll be as near as damn to right. Add an extra 1/2 teaspoon in either direction if your beer would include the word "very" in its malty or hoppy description.


TB, do the amounts you refer to relate to a 20 litre brew or is there an addition per litre of "soft" brewing water that you would suggest?


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## Lurks

I've found the EZ Water Calculator spreadsheet works a treat. It highlights the need for further acidification, if needed, after you've entered your salt additions.

There's a box for 88% lactic acid. I use 85% phosphoric instead but the same amount. The mash pH (measured at room temperature) is 5.2 just as predicted. In the California Common I made yesterday, I needed to add 3ml of phosphoric acid, despite reasonable salt additions. So you can see that we're not talking about tiny tiny amounts. I suppose, thinking about it, adding acidulated malt is even more stress free since your LHBS can do that, no need to try precisely measure out phosphoric/lactic acid. EZ Water Calculator has a box for acidulated malt, bosh.

Not trying to place myself in opposition to Thirsty Boy, but I'd like to comment on the half a teaspoon sort of thing because it's how I started off with water additions. First off, I weighed a teaspoon of each, because they weigh differently. A teaspoon of CaSO4 is about 2.8g, a teaspoon of CaCl is about 3.4g. Using my Common beer yesterday (1.052OG, 25EBC) as an example, working on the actual water quality report* from Melbourne's Cardinia reservoir, entering the figures into EZ Water Calculator... Half a teaspoon of each for a balanced beer. The mash pH would be 5.57. Three salts out of spec according to Palmer's guidelines:

Ca - 27ppm (Palmer 50-150)
Mg - 1ppm (Palmer 10 - 30)
SO4 - 24ppm (Palmer 50 - 350)

Clearly it makes good beer or Thirsty Boy and countless others would have noticed by now, and my prior beers weren't half bad either. Yet it does seem to be considerably out of range, particularly for mash pH. To be in range, I had to add 4g MgSO4, 6g CaCl and 3g CaSO4. That's about 1 tsp, 2 tsp and 1 tsp respectively. And the 3ml of acid in the mash to hit 5.25 (and measurement confirmed) as mentioned. Obviously different beers would be different, this is just an illustration.

felten linked a forum post (cheers!) where deLange cleared up the issue regarding pH and measurement temperature. It seems that you do actually want to measure it at room temperature. So when people talk about an ideal pH of 5.2, they mean room, not mash temperature. Phew. He goes further and gives his measured pH/C change as 0.0055pH per degree. 66-21 = 45. 45 * 0.0055 = 0.2475. So if the mash is 5.2 at room, it should be fractionally under 5 at mash temperature.

If you read 5.2 at mash temperature then that's 5.45 at room. Which is no disaster anyway, it seems.

* http://www.melbournewater.com.au/content/library/water_storages/water_quality/Typical_analysis_of_Melbournes_water.pdf

Mat.


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## Online Brewing Supplies

Thirsty Boy said:


> I've done some experimenting with the 5.2 bufffer you can typically buy - My science wasn't something you'd put your house on statistically.... but in none of the several (benchtop sized) experiments I did (even at more than twice the reccomended dose) did the addition of 5.2 buffering salts to Melbourne tap water, actually buffer a mash to 5.2. It essentially did nothing.
> 
> Its designed to buffer mashes done in water with relatively high dissolved solids - I'm not sure it does a lot in soft water..... to be honest I'm not sure it does a lot in any sort of water really.
> 
> If you live in Melbourne - stop fretting anyway. Thank your lucky stars you dont live somewhere the water makes you work & stick in 1tspn of Cacl for malty beers, 1 tspn of CaS04 for hoppy beers, 1/2 of each for balanced beers.... and you'll be as near as damn to right. Add an extra 1/2 teaspoon in either direction if your beer would include the word "very" in its malty or hoppy description.
> 
> People who live in Perth etc.... continue to fret you poor buggers.


Thats why we use RO units  Reverse Osmosis unit
Nev


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## manticle

Think of a range rather than a specific number. Different enzymes have different optimal pH. From memory, 5.0-5.5 is a good range for both beta and alpha amylase when measured sacc/mash and ~5.3-5.8 at room temp. There is a range a fair bit outside this that is still OK for conversion -

Felten's link shows a post by Thirsty Boy a bit further down the page which is of interest too.


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## Bada Bing Brewery

Thirsty Boy said:


> I've done some experimenting with the 5.2 bufffer you can typically buy - My science wasn't something you'd put your house on statistically.... It essentially did nothing.


A little Ph fairy just died ........ Thanks for the info TB .....
Cheers
BBB


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## RobW

So what is room temp?
It's really so non-specific as to be useless.
Depends where you are and when - Broome in summer or Hobart in winter?

I would think you'd be better off nominating say 20oC.


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## manticle

Room temp is usually considered around 20 C. I believe there are official definitions that offer a range but the median temp falls around 20-21


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## Thirsty Boy

Chinamat said:


> I've found the EZ Water Calculator spreadsheet works a treat. It highlights the need for further acidification, if needed, after you've entered your salt additions.
> 
> There's a box for 88% lactic acid. I use 85% phosphoric instead but the same amount. The mash pH (measured at room temperature) is 5.2 just as predicted. In the California Common I made yesterday, I needed to add 3ml of phosphoric acid, despite reasonable salt additions. So you can see that we're not talking about tiny tiny amounts. I suppose, thinking about it, adding acidulated malt is even more stress free since your LHBS can do that, no need to try precisely measure out phosphoric/lactic acid. EZ Water Calculator has a box for acidulated malt, bosh.
> 
> Not trying to place myself in opposition to Thirsty Boy, but I'd like to comment on the half a teaspoon sort of thing because it's how I started off with water additions. First off, I weighed a teaspoon of each, because they weigh differently. A teaspoon of CaSO4 is about 2.8g, a teaspoon of CaCl is about 3.4g. Using my Common beer yesterday (1.052OG, 25EBC) as an example, working on the actual water quality report* from Melbourne's Cardinia reservoir, entering the figures into EZ Water Calculator... Half a teaspoon of each for a balanced beer. The mash pH would be 5.57. Three salts out of spec according to Palmer's guidelines:
> 
> Ca - 27ppm (Palmer 50-150)
> Mg - 1ppm (Palmer 10 - 30)
> SO4 - 24ppm (Palmer 50 - 350)
> 
> Clearly it makes good beer or Thirsty Boy and countless others would have noticed by now, and my prior beers weren't half bad either. Yet it does seem to be considerably out of range, particularly for mash pH. To be in range, I had to add 4g MgSO4, 6g CaCl and 3g CaSO4. That's about 1 tsp, 2 tsp and 1 tsp respectively. And the 3ml of acid in the mash to hit 5.25 (and measurement confirmed) as mentioned. Obviously different beers would be different, this is just an illustration.
> 
> felten linked a forum post (cheers!) where deLange cleared up the issue regarding pH and measurement temperature. It seems that you do actually want to measure it at room temperature. So when people talk about an ideal pH of 5.2, they mean room, not mash temperature. Phew. He goes further and gives his measured pH/C change as 0.0055pH per degree. 66-21 = 45. 45 * 0.0055 = 0.2475. So if the mash is 5.2 at room, it should be fractionally under 5 at mash temperature.
> 
> If you read 5.2 at mash temperature then that's 5.45 at room. Which is no disaster anyway, it seems.
> 
> * http://www.melbournewater.com.au/content/library/water_storages/water_quality/Typical_analysis_of_Melbournes_water.pdf
> 
> Mat.


Your teaspoons must be a lot more conservative than mine.... 6-8g of either CaCl or CaSO4 when I am scooping. I arrived at that well and truly after coming out the other side of weighing, measuringing, calculating and all the guff.

For me - in melbourne water it all turns out quite simply. For a 25L post boil volume batch or thereabouts

You need the calcium... melbourne water is low in it. So you have to add it one way or another.
Pick the appropriate version of calcium salt for your beer... chloride or sulphate as you see fit
6-8g (a teaspoon) of it will get you near enough to your desired pH in a pale beer and wont push it too much low even in a dark one
Measure what actually happens..... adjust for next time.
magnesium salt.... if you like. I put in a pinch and thats enough to do everything you need. If you were to leave it out it would make little to no difference.

People - people with books to sell mainly - make water too complicated.

Add some calcium chloride or some calcium sulphate till your mash pH turns out to be about 5.4..... if it so happens that the amount of calcium salt you need to add to do this turns out to be more than a couple of teaspoons, either use some acid to push it the rest of the way instead - or better yet.... ditch your crappy water and get nice soft low DS water to brew with. Use a "calculator" to help you guess how much you might need - or on the other hand, just brew a few times, poke a pH meter at the results and sort it for yourself over a little while.

You should be able to come up with some nice easy all purpose amounts that work for a} pale beers b} brown beers c} black beers - and then all you have to do is keep shoving in the pH meter whenever you brew to make sure nothing has changed.

No books required, nice and simple.

TB

Oh and its 5.2 if you measure at MASH temp and 5.4 if you measure at around 20°. You're right about how temperature influences the reading, just not about the target ranges.


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## Lecterfan

I tend to brew a lot, especially when I am keen to learn new things and get past a plateau - sometimes I need basic advice like TB's rather than full theory, and then I go ahead and brew and adjust based on the results. My water profile is not miles removed from that of Melbourne. I would just like to add a purely anecdotal, non-scientific bit of advice for anyone just starting to explore water additions. 

Please bear in mind that this is (obviously) totally dependant on your own water profile - but, for me and my water, it is far easier to ruin a beer with cal sulphate than with cal chloride. With dark malts it (cal sulphate) can give a horrid astringency, and in excessive amounts with other beers it adds a very minerally, slightly savoury profile that is sometimes enjoyable but distracting (in a red ale I did) and sometimes downright horrible (in a kolsch I did).

I am sorry that this isn't a pearl of empirical wisdom, but I feel it is worth mentioning for any other 'suck-it-and-see' brewers out there. Read the basics (as TB said, you may want calcium in one form or another such as in Melbourne water), but then make the choice carefully if you are daring enough to add more than 10gm total to your strikewater/mash/whatever. Cal Chloride has yet to have 'negative' effects for me in the same way and at similar rates.

Again, apologies this post isn't in the ball-park of others, but it might help someone.

I also subsequently found that 5.2 did nothing but buffer my confidence when mashing.


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## manticle

The actions required are simple. Sprinkle in some salts and maybe acid. Measure pH and taste the results.

It's the understanding why those actions are taken that can be complex. I know it took me ages to get my head around but I found the process interesting as some brewers are a nerdy lot).

However TB is right - you are essentially adding flavour salts when talking about the chloride and sulphate aspect and it's not that different from seasoning a steak in that regard (except you 'rest' the beer for a lot longer before tasting the results.

@Lecter: CaSO4 is generally not recommended for darker beers from the reading I've done.


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## Lecterfan

- yes, and I found out why 'the hard way'. Revolting astringency.


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## manticle

If only you'd read a book you heathen philistine.


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## Lecterfan

I did, but it was a choose your own adventure. I had read the small chunk(s) of Fix that are cited in the ubiquitous Wheeler article, but I didn't think that my sulphate levels were particularly high - and clearly my initial readings were overtaken by unbridled enthusiasm as I missed (or ignored) the definitive sentence "Sulphate is to be avoided altogether in dark beers" haha. Words to be taken seriously.

edit - for clarity.


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## Lurks

"Your teaspoons must be a lot more conservative than mine"

<shrug> obviously I don't use teaspoons, I use grams. I used a specific half teaspoon measure I have (for baking or some such) to make that estimate. 

Thirsty Boy said:

"People - people with books to sell mainly - make water too complicated."

Hrm, well I've already discovered I'm making better beers using some of this theory and overcomplicating it is all part of the fun. For me anyway, and besides - once I work it out, it's pretty easy to implement on brewday.

"Oh and its 5.2 if you measure at MASH temp and 5.4 if you measure at around 20°"

I said 5.45, I'd have thought you'd let me off on that since I was overcomplicating as it is 

P.S. Tasting a couple of pale ales from a former experiment last night (zactly the same beer, post modified). One of them had the CaSO4 pushed up to 250ppm while the other was half as much. The SO4-heavy beer tastes much more highly hopped, with 'zing' as the wife put it. I wouldn't describe it as more bitter but maybe someone else would. Interesting. At the least we have a better handle on the taste reality of these salts, which is nice.

Mat.


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