# Getting rid of that "homebrew taste"



## beno1 (3/1/14)

Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question but does anyone have any tips. on how to get rid if that "homebrew taste" i have been only brewing a but over a year and am an partial mash brewer/ extract. i have made some very nice beers that ive been very happy with but id like to be able to get them so other people wouldn't know its homebrew beer. i use good qaulity yeast, follow temp control very well etc. 
any help would be appreciated

Cheers


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## beno1 (3/1/14)

Ps. Im hear to get tips and help my self become a better brewer, we all start somewhere.if you have nothing positive to say then don't comment
No trolls please


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## dicko (3/1/14)

beno1 said:


> Ps. Im hear to get tips and help my self become a better brewer, we all start somewhere.if you have nothing positive to say then don't comment No trolls please


While I will agree that it is annoying to have a topic derailed, in this case it hasn't happened yet so i would give the members a go and see what comes of your inquiry.

The site is generally moderated pretty well now, so if trolling does happen I am sure it will be dealt with swiftly.

Sit back, relax, have a beer and enjoy.....


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/14)

Avoid the use of table sugar, except for bottling. Time is your friend. The longer the better.

Unfortunatly with mega swill, it pre programs peoples tastes so they dont actually know what "real" beer tastes like.


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## Truman42 (3/1/14)

If your mates drink VB and other megaswill thats your problem right there. They expect beer to be bland and watered down, and drank icy cold to disguise the vile taste.

My partners ex husband is like that. If I offer him one of my homebrews he knocks it back and would rather drink the megaswill I have in the fridge that other people have left. He wont even try my beer saying he hates the taste of homebrew. (At least im getting rid of the megaswill I would never touch anyway I suppose.)

Try serving your home brew to craft beer drinkers and you generally get a different story.


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## Moad (3/1/14)

edit: completely misread the OP

Try and get them to be more specific with what they mean by the "homebrew taste"...

probably all in their heads mate


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## indica86 (3/1/14)

Tell them it is not homebrew and see if it is picked.


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## robbo5253 (3/1/14)

As others have said, your friends probably drink beer styles that are hard to re-create (and not worth it).
You could always try and make something along the lines of a Little Creatures & then give them both to your friends in glasses & see what they think of the difference.


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## Rambo (3/1/14)

Also make sure any extract you buy is as fresh as possible.


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## Lecterfan (3/1/14)

When I was partial mash I was using up to 3kgs of grains pretty regularly. TasChris then kicked my arse into gear as it slowly dawned on me that I could make smaller all-grain batches with that 3kg of grains or could bump it up to 4 or 5kgs and do full size batches etc.

If YOU are happy then don't worry - but if you can taste 'that homebrew taste' and want to do something about (and you think your yeast handling and fermentation schedule is up to it), then why not try going all-grain?

There are excellent threads on this site to help you, such as:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/38674-move-to-all-grain-for-thirty-bucks/

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/44264-20l-stovetop-all-grain-aussie-lager/

and many, many more (type in your search words, click on 'forums' and change it to google, click on the magnifying glass to search and DONE). :icon_cheers:






EEK! I've become THAT guy…the one who recommends just going AG as the cure-all. Won't be long and I'll be answering bottling questions with 'buy some kegs' haha.


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## Rod (3/1/14)

beno1 said:


> Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question but does anyone have any tips. on how to get rid if that "homebrew taste" i have been only brewing a but over a year and am an partial mash brewer/ extract. i have made some very nice beers that ive been very happy with but id like to be able to get them so other people wouldn't know its homebrew beer. i use good qaulity yeast, follow temp control very well etc. any help would be appreciated Cheers


how long do you leave your beer before drinking

a minimum of 6 weeks will help

then taste every week and note differences

I usually drink after 12 weeks


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## beno1 (3/1/14)

Thanks for your help everyone.. you are correct when you say my mates drink all that commercial crap beer. There the ones that wont drink my homebrew. I have a few mate that are into HB , craftbeers etc and they always want a home brew when they come over. Infact the bastards clean my out all the time. Haha i may be looking at going all grain soon when i get a little more confident


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## kevo (3/1/14)

In my understanding, the biggest challenge home brewers face with regard to 'homebrew taste' is oxidation - exposure to oxidation through the process and early staling of the beer.

Minimising oxygen pickup, especially at transfer and bottling is not easy, but could play a part in imroving the quality of your beer.


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## beno1 (3/1/14)

Ps i do agree that HB taste a lot better than commercial beers and i am happy with my brews but i was just wondering what could be done to make it similar to a commercial beer. I tried a mate of mines HB the other night was asashi style jap beer. I couldnt tell the diffrence between the commercial version and his. A bit of a boring beer tho


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## TimT (3/1/14)

Fresh is best. Homebrews and craft beers usually have living yeast in them so they will develop and change in taste over time, and attain a peak, well, 'ripeness' when they're best to drink. (Mass market beers, not so much: they can just pasteurise to ensure standardisation, carbonate them if necessary, and I believe use nitrogen to ensure a good foamy head.) I think a beer would be at peak ripeness at about 4-5 weeks after you start fermenting.

Also, presentation helps. Pretty sure most folks around here would have their own brew style - 'weird', 'herbal', 'lots of hops', 'dark beers', 'yeasty', whatever - and once you have your own style, you can really present it to others that way. My own style is kind of a mix of 'weird', 'herbal', and 'historical', and when I give others beers I often like to present it that way. I tie a string round the top and put a cardboard label through that string - or put a sticker on the side describing the ingredients within. If people come over for a drink or two, I like to cook a meal and a dessert to go with the beers to show off their flavours. I guess if you think of the beer not as an alternative to mass market beer, but in terms of the flavours you want and your own personal style, that will be reflected in it when you give it to others.


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## indica86 (3/1/14)

Any commercial beers you want to emulate the taste of?


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## kevo (3/1/14)

beno1 said:


> Ps i do agree that HB taste a lot better than commercial beers and i am happy with my brews but i was just wondering what could be done to make it similar to a commercial beer. I tried a mate of mines HB the other night was asashi style jap beer. I couldnt tell the diffrence between the commercial version and his. A bit of a boring beer tho


Have a chat to your mate - whatever he's doing, you seem to like it.

Then report back!


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## garyhead.design (3/1/14)

I 100% agree with the train of thought that it's your mates' perception of beer that is the problem. In my experience good home brewers can brew on par with any commercial micro brewery.

Focus your attention on yeast health for a start, it's not just temp to focus on. Pitch rate, oxygen and having a nice nutritious wort for the yeast will help get the best out of whatever yeast you're using. You would be surprised how much US05 is used commercially.

And if you really want to make something to taste more like swill, focus on making tasteless lagers (never ales). The home brew taste they could be referring to is flavor it self. Avoid it at all costs! Ferment it really cold and lager it properly for as long as possible. If the end result is malty carbonated water your might have something they will drink.

Meanwhile I have tried many a brew, but as yet have never managed to create something that my father in law and I will drink.... our palettes are too different.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/1/14)

Start them on Coopers.....if they wont drink that then there is little hope.


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## beno1 (3/1/14)

Ps i do agree that HB taste a lot better than commercial beers and i am happy with my brews but i was just wondering what could be done to make it similar to a commercial beer. I tried a mate of mines HB the other night was asashi style jap beer. I couldnt tell the diffrence between the commercial version and his. A bit of a boring beer tho


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## beno1 (3/1/14)

Ive just made a simple cascade type ale. 2.8kg LDM extract
450gms of crystal grain
Steep until hits 170 deg
15 min boil 
Cascade 15 min 70gms
Cascade 5 min28gms
Cascade 0 min15 u
Dry hop cascade 25 gms for 7 days when 
Notty yeast

Very simple as i didnt have a huge amount of time up my sleeve.

Im trying a red ale next
4 kg of BB pale malt grain
350g caraaroma
500 g carared
500 g caramunich
20 g of roasted malt
250g natural honey
Steep at 67 deg for 60 min

30g East kent golding hops 60min

20g east kent golding 20min

Us o5 or nottingham yeast


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## zarniwoop (3/1/14)

As others have pointed out it's a bit of a two issue problem - are they just megaswill drinkers or is it your beer? Chances are it's 90% them and 10% improvements you could make but even if you make those improvements they'll probably never notice as they are blind to the greatness of ales etc 

One thing that I've done in the past is a blind beer tasting night: get about 20 different beers, everything from Hahn Ice to top end craft beer (nothing weird though) and get someone who's not participating and close to sober to pour them without the participants knowing what they're drinking, everyone has a sheet with numbers on that they can write what they thought of each beer and the person serving has a master copy that they note which beer is which, in the morning review the results and you may actually shock and convert a mate or two. If nothing else then it's a good laugh to see how the quality of the comments deteriorates as the night moves on. :chug:

General improvements to your beer are normally achieved by a whole series of different things which have already been mentioned or you are already doing (temp control, pitching rates, aging etc etc), the biggest single improvement I've made ( and I really hate to be the second one to say this) is to go to brew in a bag AG, it took a few brews to get it right but it's lost that extract "twang" that can sometimes occur, my recent Fat Yak clone is very close to Fat Yak and some have even said they prefer it which I'm pretty happy with. But.... if you're just chasing the commercial lager taste the you will always struggle as they do a variety of funky things to that which which I'll leave to others with more knowledge to talk about and you won't be able to do at home.

So to recap: Phase one, convert mates to drinking real beer rather than diluted rat urine, phase 2: general improvements to brewing process for the sake of your own enjoyment.


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## jyo (3/1/14)

I don't try to convert people anymore. If they want to try a beer, they can. When people turn their nose up at a tasty AG low hopped blonde ale or a well brewed commercial lager like a Weihenstephaner pils and go back to a carlton dry or carlton cold, I just give up.


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## Bribie G (3/1/14)

Commercial beers are very well made indeed. They are not crap beers, any more than a Toyota Camry is a crap car. Boring and bland, yes, but actually made to the highest standards. Breweries spend millions employing yeast scientists, engineers, graduate brewers and source the best ingredients on the market plus the best temperature controlled computer operated brewing gear to turn out identical batches time after time.

They do this because there is a demand for their product from people who do not particulary see craft beers as being for them. Much in the same way that Coon Cheese isn't going to close down soon just because there is Imported Danish Havarti or Dutch Maasdam or Goats milk Bulgarian Fetta out there.

Just like Tip Top bread, commercial mainstream pale lagers are going to be the sliced white loaf of beer drinkers for decades to come.

If you want to try and emulate them, it is one of the hardest home brewing exercises and, from experience, I'd say you won't do it with partials. Sorry.
You have nothing to hide behind if you don't get the process spot on. You can't chuck in some extra hops or some extra malt as you would with an APA or a stout, isn't going to work.

At the risk of sounding immodest, but on topic for this thread, I won a second place gong in the Pale Lagers at the Nats just gone with a Premium Australian Lager, and it's taken me 6 years to get there.

Use the same ingredients they do: domestic pilsener malt and cane sugar that's right cane sugar *
Use Pride of Ringwood Hops
Use a Danish style lager yeast similar to the Fosters B strain (Recommend Wyeast Danish Lager)

Mash to a certain and precise schedule: 62 degrees for two hours then raise quickly to a short mashout at 78
Ferment to their typical schedule with the above yeast .. start at 13 degrees for a few days then let rise to around 19 degrees to finish
Lager for 10 days at -1

Ideally filter it, but in any case take the most stringent steps to avoid yeast carry over and chill haze (recommend brewbright)

Serve blisteringly cold.

Personally I prefer to make UK style real ales and the visitors can bring their own VB if they prefer. 

*Cane sugar is used in Aussie beers historically to adjust the results from the often dodgy barleys that were grown in the colony. Also, for much of the 20th century pubs closed at 6 pm, giving rise to the six o'clock swill when workers would crowd into bars that were tiled like urinals and would swill down as much piss as possible, sometimes standing with legs outspread and ten or twelve pots on the floor between them. The beer had to be light in body and easily sunk schooner after schooner after schooner, so sugar was essential in the brew and it's stayed there.


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## MartinOC (3/1/14)

beno1 said:


> Ps i do agree that HB taste a lot better than commercial beers and i am happy with my brews but i was just wondering what could be done to make it similar to a commercial beer. I tried a mate of mines HB the other night was asashi style jap beer. I couldnt tell the diffrence between the commercial version and his. A bit of a boring beer tho


Mate, the reason HB tastes better than commercial megaswill is because it has FLAVOUR! Every time I've given one of my HB's to a megaswill drinker, I always preface it with "Be prepared for something you've probably not experienced in beer before - FLAVOUR". Then I walk them through how it's different & what they're tasting. The usual response is "**** me! Is THAT what real beer is supposed to taste like?!?!?!"

I'd advise NOT to try to emulate commercial beers (except the good ones, of course! ). After all, why would you want to? The stuff you're experimenting with is probably far superior anyway! You're doing it to drink better beer, not something churned-out by accountants.

Screw the nay-sayers!


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## fletcher (3/1/14)

Bribie G said:


> Use the same ingredients they do: domestic pilsener malt and cane sugar that's right cane sugar *
> Use Pride of Ringwood Hops
> Use a Danish style lager yeast similar to the Fosters B strain (Recommend Wyeast Danish Lager)
> 
> ...


i'm gonna try that one myself bribie! i wanna see if i can get it too (doubt it but why not try?


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## of mice and gods (3/1/14)

whoa deja vu..

try doing a search for vb/cd/xxxx/australian bitter lager recipes on this site (depending on the flavour your mates drink and want to emulate). It's not that uncommon to want to try and do a please-all mates beer as you will find. However, you may find it hard to perfectly replicate the exact flavours without some heft science, equipment and dollars. But what you can do is probably going to be a slightly better beer anyway as it's brewed to a standard, not a budget.

Al


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## jpanic (3/1/14)

If it's any help, when I was starting out, the number one way I eliminated the distinctive "home brew" taste was controlling the fermentation temperature. In Brisbane especially, room temperature fermenting I think creates a very recognisable "home brew" taste.

Strongly recommend the jump to all-grain as well. My mates and I went from occasional extract brewing at room temperature, to BIAB in an urn, and temperature-controlled fermentation. It makes a world of difference and eliminated the "home brew" taste and is now, although with detectable flaws to be eliminated and potential benefits to be achieved, at a level comparable to decent craft beers.


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## Beerisyummy (3/1/14)

Hi Beno1,

Nothing wrong with trying to please your mates buddy. I'm guessing you've shared quite a few rounds of bland megaswill over the years with them.
There's more to sharing a few rounds than the beer itself.

I recently had this "homebrew taste" conversation with some of the familia in Darwin. In my mind it came down to several things, but the two most important were the flavour and clarity in relation to mainstream beers.

Piss off the cans and use a recipe like Bribie G's for some awesome flavour results. Sorachi ace works well (along with many others), and if you feel like it, you can do away with the cane sugar and/or try the Whitelabs German lager yeast.
That's all down to personal preference though.

Unfortunately, I think kegging is the only sensible way to get the clarity thing down pat in a reasonable timeframe with minimal fuss. AFAIK.

Is there anyone out there who is brewing light bodied lagers without the use of kegs? The type that pour clear at cold temps of course.


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (3/1/14)

Some of the stuff I read here is funny. Not shor where but I've seen it posted that people say when asked to describe home brew what do they think? Wow it's bitter!! My wife did this for ages till I found Sierra Nevada southern hemisphere. She tasted that (which I feel is a good drop) and then became "beer taster" . My brews are like Sierra hoppy and hopefully tasty. This is the trick I think not many plp know a good drop.


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## yum beer (3/1/14)

A big problem with I think we have with mega-swillers is the way there beer is marketed.
VB....its name says bitter, so it must be...bitter. Give them any more IBU's and your ******* with their head.
I had the brother and his mate over recently and the brother always smashes a few home brews in to himself, going 'wow thats tasty' then returns to his TED's.
I was swigging on a bottle of Warsteiner and offered both a swig to try, brother's raised an eye and said yum, his mate just said it was way too bitter.......'you don't want an Urquell then....'

There is a very strong underlying home brew fear in a lot of people...Dads made dodgy brews, uncle Bob made rocket fuel, the guy next door blows up the garage every other week.
When the mates come over just pour some beers into glasses and give it to them.....don't know too many who'll knock back a freebie...if they don't like it then well nothing you can do, you just might find they ask for another or next time their over they might ask to imbide in one of your tasty beverages.

+1 for the AG push. Been Ag now for 18 months, recently made a Coopers Recipe of the Month(Anzac Ale)...prize from local show(1st place Pale Ale...a slightly adjusted DSGA)...and although it had some nice flavours it still stung of 'twang', I sold 2 cartons to my little bro'...he'll drink anything.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (3/1/14)

Beerisyummy said:


> Is there anyone out there who is brewing light bodied lagers without the use of kegs? The type that pour clear at cold temps of course.


My friend yes there is and I am one of them, I normally do 25 to 28 litre batches so I keg 19 and bottle the rest of each brew and never had chill haze in bottles or keg, I don't use any clearing in the fermenter just a process I found on here ages ago, can't find it know but it's to do with a lagering principle of dropping temp by a degree per day until about 1 degree c

Years ago I did a coopers cerveza kit with the coopers enhancer number 2 or 1 can't remember and the kit yeast fermented cold, CPBF into corona bottles and no one knew the difference, reality is in the perception make them think its swill they will drink and love, then tell them it's home crafted with care and they will change there thinking, then you have the next problem they'll drink all your beers


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## beno1 (3/1/14)

When i do my partial / extract beers now . I chuck the cracked grains in a cheesecloth bag or grain and steep for the required time at the required temp. I just give it a bit of a poke and squeeze every now and then. My question is when i move to all grain can i use that same process rather than actually mashing the grains etc. if i did mash then it would mean i would need to strain it off after? Sorry if i sound like an idiot but i need to know.


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## beno1 (3/1/14)

Also with the grains that buy whats the best way to crush them ? And also how fine should they be crushed to? Maybe the brew show can do that for me in not sure


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## TimT (3/1/14)

Your system sounds essentially the same as brew in a bag.

I crack my grains in a blender! Usually do smaller runs - but grains for 25 litres is perfectly doable.


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## MartinOC (3/1/14)

With steeping grains, temperature control isn't that important, 'cos they're effectively "dead" & you're just making a kind of "tea" (70-80C is fine). When you get to AG mashing, temperature control is where the fun comes-in & you need to control it.

The crushing of steeped grains is not important, 'cos all you're doing is extracting colour & flavour.

The crush for mashed grains will make a difference to your extraction & efficiency.

Don't get hung-up on this stuff until you want to get into AG.


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## yum beer (3/1/14)

Follow the links in post #10 plenty of great info, especially the BIAB for $30 thread.
You LHBS will mill your grain for you.


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## carpedaym (3/1/14)

I want to reiterate a couple of the comments about conditioning time.

My last brew was an extract+steeping grain pale ale, and after 3-4 weeks I was thinking... "hmm, not as good as my previous attempts, maybe there is an 'extract twang' after all."

Now they've had about 8 weeks on them I'm much happier and any faults are on me/recipe construction, rather than due to the extract.

Has anyone mentioned a cold crash before bottling to help with clarification and brighten up the flavour?


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## beno1 (3/1/14)

Im going to be doing my first AG next week after. My fermenter is free. I think ive got it all under control and ready to experiment for the first time. Just one thing im not 100% sure on is the grain as long as its just cracked it will be fine? It doesnt beed to be grinded up so its fine ?


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## carpedaym (3/1/14)

zarniwoop said:


> my recent Fat Yak clone is very close to Fat Yak


Off topic, but is your fat yak recipe posted anywhere linkable?


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## carpedaym (4/1/14)

Cracked is all you need. Check whether your LHBS will do this you you, a lot do this as a free service. If so, they will know the best crush and you don't have to worry about it.

If not, I think there is a Brew Strong episode on milling grain with all the info you could ever want on the topic (except, perhaps, the best options if you don't have a grain mill. But armed with knowledge, one can begin to improvise.)


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## yum beer (4/1/14)

Tell your LHBS your grain is for BIAB, you want it a little finer than normal, a bit of extra 'flour' helps with your effiiciency


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## beno1 (4/1/14)

Lecterfan said:


> When I was partial mash I was using up to 3kgs of grains pretty regularly. TasChris then kicked my arse into gear as it slowly dawned on me that I could make smaller all-grain batches with that 3kg of grains or could bump it up to 4 or 5kgs and do full size batches etc.
> 
> If YOU are happy then don't worry - but if you can taste 'that homebrew taste' and want to do something about (and you think your yeast handling and fermentation schedule is up to it), then why not try going all-grain?
> 
> ...


i am from adelaide any idea where i can buy these grains in bulk ? I want to get them cheap. My homebrew store sells em for approx $16 for 2 kgs


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## manticle (4/1/14)

You can get grain posted or couriered from site sponsors like craftbrewer or grain and grape. Otherwise try Nige from brew adelaide or beer belly - both SA.


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## zarniwoop (4/1/14)

carpedaym said:


> Off topic, but is your fat yak recipe posted anywhere linkable?


I can't claim credit for this one I'm afraid, it's pretty close, not exact but close and I'd say better:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/1510-fatter-yak/


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## Bribie G (4/1/14)

Getting off topic, but when you modify an Italian Marga Mill for malt milling purposes you need to drill a new guide hole. The unit comes with several guide holes for fine pasta flour, bread flour, coarse flour and groats. There's a guide on the forum as to where to drill the hole to give you a roller spacing for cracking malt.

I drilled as directed and found it was pretty good, about what you would get crushed by CraftBrewer or others. Then I drilled a hole half way between that and the Italian Mamma da Groats hole and it's the perfect crush for BIAB.


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## beno1 (18/1/14)

Lecterfan said:


> When I was partial mash I was using up to 3kgs of grains pretty regularly. TasChris then kicked my arse into gear as it slowly dawned on me that I could make smaller all-grain batches with that 3kg of grains or could bump it up to 4 or 5kgs and do full size batches etc.
> 
> If YOU are happy then don't worry - but if you can taste 'that homebrew taste' and want to do something about (and you think your yeast handling and fermentation schedule is up to it), then why not try going all-grain?
> 
> ...


i actrully brewed that AG recipe and only ended up with 6 litres instead of 9 not sure what went wrong.


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## Bribie G (18/1/14)

Did you sparge?


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## beno1 (19/1/14)

Bribie G said:


> Did you sparge?


I squeezed the grains and then dunked in 1 litre of 70 degree water. Like the recipe said. i boiled in a 19


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## beno1 (19/1/14)

beno1 said:


> I squeezed the grains and then dunked in 1 litre of 70 degree water. Like the recipe said. i boiled in a 19 litre pot which is fairly open. So where i lost it was in the boil. I should have started with 14 litres


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## popmedium (19/1/14)

For me it was sanitisation. I would rarely ever get an actual infection - say, a Pericles on top or spores or anything else that makes you want to puke - but I found that I had some chinks in my process that resulted in beers that just weren't "clean". I'm Still working it out but my last half dozen have been sans "Homebrew"taste. 

What did I do? I simplified my process

- started using dry yeast, hydrated. Did this to remove some of the danger zones that pop up when making starters
- started no chilling instead of using my immersion chiller. Chilling was, I think, my biggest weak point. 
- never open the fermenter. I only open if I'm worried about the gravity. I get some wort out real fast and seal the cube back up as fast as possible.
- dry hopping - I stopped using bags. I never imagined a bag could be a weak point as I used to boil them, then rinse in star San. Still, one time I wracked to a no chill cube and dropped a bag of hops straight in, sealed it up. I didn't get a chance to pitch for a week and when I got to it the cube had swelled and there was a thin film on top of the wort. Free ball FTW. 

And then I started to adding some if these elements back in, like using liquid yeasts and starters. 

All that stuff worked for me. Be critical of your process and take the time to get it right. 

Good luck!


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## pist (22/1/14)

I was doing kits and then extract...i improved my processes continuously seeing small leaps in beer quality until i hit that wall...where what i could taste was that "twang" as many like to call it...which is something which really frustrated me and i was not enjoying drinking what i was making which then led me to giving it away. Having to drink megaswill rubbish down the local as there was nothing else made me long for a cheaper alternative to craft beer (can be an expensive exercise buying craft beer to drink on a regular basis), which then led me to having a crack at all grain (biab). So i welded a nipple/ball balve into an old keg i had and built a stand to house a gas burner. It wasnt until i took this step that my beers went from bordering on undrinkable to even bringing comments out of friends who are big fans of craft beer such as "holy shit this is really nice". From my experiences i believe that theres only so much you can do to hide the distinct taste of malt extracts its not until you take that jump into all grain that you will reap the rewards


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## carniebrew (22/1/14)

I'm not personally convinced that it's simply malt extract causing 'that homebrew taste', as I've had too many extract beers that don't have it. Maybe it's old extract, lack of temperature controlled fermentation, kit yeast with malt extract, some combo thereof, I don't know...but surely anyone who reads "Brewing Classic Styles", which contains hundreds of award winning extract-based recipes has got to wonder how they could win so many awards if all extract beers had "twang".

I've also had many beers from UBrewIT before I moved to home brewing, and I don't recall any of them having "twang", despite UBrewIT exclusively using malt extract (sitting in their warehouse in 44 gallon drums).

I see BribieG posting in another thread about a ripping beer he's just made using a Coopers kit can, I'm not sure he'd be loving it so much if it had 'twang'?

I know it's controversial, but I'm pretty convinced 'twang' is more likely caused by the brewer (via either their choices or their process), not the extract.


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## skb (22/1/14)

I have to say I also found that homebrew taste for the first few years of extract brewing, and slowly got rid of it and my beers are generally liked by most.... The things I did that I found made the biggest difference were :

1) Never used the yeast that came with the extract
2) Always ferment at the low end of the temp scale 
--- I found this got rid of a very large portion 

3) I then tried fermenting and leaving it for a lot longer (my largers I do for 21 days !! and Ales at least 14)... I know some people think this can give funny flavours, but I found the exact opposite. 

-- with this I got 99% of the way. 

My last step and I have no and I mean no idea but would like to hear from people who know why.. But for my ales especially the more flavoured ones with oak etc, or my wheat beers I would keg them and leave them for 10 weeks or so prior to consumption !! and bingo. 

---------------- All of the above was extract only, I use to every now and then do a mini mash of carapils grain (eg 100g) and it added just that little more. 

This year I am converting to BIAB and did first very basic beer on weekend with my neigbour, keen to see how I go. We did drink a lot of my other homebrew while making the homebrew I might add.


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## Bribie G (22/1/14)

The kit I used was the lightest possible one, Canadian Blonde, and the beer is an American Cream Ale, that would be well received by lager drinkers. In retrospect my statement that " a partial just isn't going to do it " was a bit harsh.. more a case of a kit and kilo and a few bits isn't going to do it would have been more accurate.

So I'll rephrase it: a partial will get you in the ball park so long as you use a very light kit, have a good understanding of mashing, temperature control and use a good yeast where you know what characteristics it will impart. Also hop lightly to give a background hoppiness but nothing too " in your face ". You can brew something that will definitely impress your Carlton drinking buddies and is an excellent quaffer, but to really replicate the likes of VB or XXXX is a hard task. And rewarding if you can get that far.


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## vittorio (23/1/14)

force carbonate in a keg makes it look and taste like real brewery beer


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## markjam (23/1/14)

carniebrew said:


> ... I don't know...but surely anyone who reads "Brewing Classic Styles", which contains hundreds of award winning extract-based recipes has got to wonder how they could win so many awards if all extract beers had "twang".


I could be wrong but my understanding was that all the recipes in "Brewing Classic Styles" were originally done as all-grain and were then converted to extract for the book as that's the most popular method in the US and will sell more books. So the 'award winning' versions were all-grain, not extract - I think.


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## carniebrew (23/1/14)

markjam said:


> I could be wrong but my understanding was that all the recipes in "Brewing Classic Styles" were originally done as all-grain and were then converted to extract for the book as that's the most popular method in the US and will sell more books. So the 'award winning' versions were all-grain, not extract - I think.


Other way around actually markjam, which is what makes the book so interesting. In the introduction on page 1, both John and Jamil talk about how initially the book was going to be called "how to brew great beer with extract", but then they decided to turn it into a book of extract recipes, with descriptions of each style. It was also late in the writing that they decided to put AG options in for each recipe too.


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## Bribie G (23/1/14)

I read an interesting article somewhere and can't locate it, but it went something like this:

Prohibition: most breweries closed down and never reopened.
The ones that hung on did so by making "near beer", malted milk drinks, ingredients for Mars bars etc and MALT EXTRACT

Home bootleg brewing using LME was huge, I even remember a Laurel and Hardy episode where they had a crack. That's also when carboys came into use as Coopers fermenters hadn't been invented :unsure: .

All the bootlegger crime gang underground breweries used LME which is why they could continue underground without huge malting and mashing facilities, they just needed fermenters and a barrel filling line.

After Prohibition, home brewing automatically meant LME, end of story, and it's stuck ever since in the USA, including the use of carboys.


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## markjam (23/1/14)

carniebrew said:


> Other way around actually markjam, which is what makes the book so interesting. In the introduction on page 1, both John and Jamil talk about how initially the book was going to be called "how to brew great beer with extract", but then they decided to turn it into a book of extract recipes, with descriptions of each style. It was also late in the writing that they decided to put AG options in for each recipe too.



Page 34 - "The recipes in this book were originally created as all-grain, full-volume boil recipes, but we have created malt extract versions to make them more accessible for new brewers"


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## JDW81 (23/1/14)

Bribie G said:


> I read an interesting article somewhere and can't locate it, but it went something like this:
> 
> Prohibition: most breweries closed down and never reopened.
> The ones that hung on did so by making "near beer", malted milk drinks, ingredients for Mars bars etc and MALT EXTRACT
> ...


Bribie, you are a suppository of brewing knowledge.


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## carniebrew (23/1/14)

I hadn't seen that sentence, I stand corrected, thanks. Seems confusing given the introduction consistently refers to extract recipes, and the fact the book is written with extract in each recipe, and all grain as an afterthought.

It does stand though that extract brewing is hugely more popular in the US of A, and not seen as a poor cousin to AG brewing. And not all extract-based beers have twang. My very own first full extract beer was a Dr Smurto's Golden Ale, made with a tin of Coopers light LME, and a tin of Thomas Coopers Wheat LME, a 21 litre batch made in an 8 litre boil using the 'late extract addition' method. I entered that in Vicbrew, it rated quite well, and not one of the 3 judges mentioned anything about tasting extract or twang. I also entered an extract Dunkelweizen made with Briess' CBW Bavarian Wheat LME and some Amber DME. It didn't rate as highly as my DGSA, but that was attributed mostly to the yeast (I'd used wb-06 fermented at 20C. Again no mention of twang. I can only assume (perhaps wrongly) that if a Vicbrew judge noticed 'homebrew twang' that they would mention it?


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## JDW81 (23/1/14)

carniebrew said:


> And not all extract-based beers have twang.


Very true. A mate of mine, who is about to jump into AG, has been brewing extract for about 12-18 months and makes cracking beer. He uses good yeast, has good sanitisation and good temp control. His extract dunkle is a thing of beauty.

JD


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## Mattrox (4/2/14)

JDW81 said:


> Bribie, you are a suppository of brewing knowledge.


Repository?

A suppository is quite something else.

hehe


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (4/2/14)

Mattrox said:


> Repository?
> 
> A suppository is quite something else.
> 
> hehe


Gives new meaning to "pulling some facts out".


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## Mattrox (4/2/14)

My take on "twang" is that unwanted flavours are introduced. Wrong sugar for style, wrong fermentation temp/temp fluctuation, minor infections, wrong yeast for style, old tins/damaged tins.

Is it possible that "homebrew taste" can arise from a lack of "something" that AG provides? This would be quite different to "twang" but still something detectable because there is a lack of richness in the flavour profile?

By the correct use of grains and hops, this adds some or almost all of what was missing?

In addition in AG you get malt grains from the region where a particular style originates. This surely imparts a distinctive flavour that a malt in a tin can't provide?

Is there a distinction between twang (bleh) and being able to tell it is homebrew?


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## Goose (4/2/14)

> My take on "twang" is that unwanted flavours are introduced. Wrong sugar for style, wrong fermentation temp/temp fluctuation, minor infections, wrong yeast for style, old tins/damaged tins.


mostly agree but I think "twang" is a term attributable from the stuff in the can and not the process or whatever you add to it afterward.



> Is it possible that "homebrew taste" can arise from a lack of "something" that AG provides? This would be quite different to "twang" but still something detectable because there is a lack of richness in the flavour profile?


I don't think so. the "homebrew taste" is something that brewers aspire to remove. I don't think any addition or compliment from the AG process will remove the "homebrew taste". It might negate or mask it slightly....



> By the correct use of grains and hops, this adds some or almost all of what was missing?


It can help to add more character but again, if the source of the twang is the contents of the can, its going to be tough to mask with grains or adjuncts.....



> In addition in AG you get malt grains from the region where a particular style originates. This surely imparts a distinctive flavour that a malt in a tin can't provide?


err yes, but again it boils down (no pun intended) to the fact you have no control over the process that made the concentrate. A black box you have to trust not just in the process of manufacture but how its been handled and stored thereafter.



> Is there a distinction between twang (bleh) and being able to tell it is homebrew?


Terms seem to be used interchangeably. You can still get that "homebrew" taste if doing AG but using incorrect methods that you identified earlier, I prefer to ascribe "twang" to the taste caused by the gloop in the can. meaning, if you are confident on all the rest of the factors that contribute to the homebrew taste and you still have it.... that's a kit twang


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## manticle (4/2/14)

Mattrox said:


> Repository?
> 
> A suppository is quite something else.
> 
> hehe


I think it was a deliberate reference to Tony Abbot's recent misuse of the word in the same way.


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## yum beer (4/2/14)

The twang IMO comes from the can.
I brewed plenty of brews that had the twang, some had less than others but it was always there.
Process, additions, ingredients....they made the twang less noticeable.
I made a 'coopers recipe of the month' a few months ago from prize winnings......The Anzac Ale.
extra hops and grain, good yeast.....lovely flavours but had twang up the ying yang.

Never had twang from AG.......gotta be in the can.


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## carniebrew (4/2/14)

yum, do you mean 'can' literally? i.e. I'm asking, did you ever make an extract beer from extract kept in something other than a can, e.g. a plastic container like Briess supply in?

I have read a lot of posts where people theorise that extract tastes worse out of a can than out of plastic. Not to say all extract out of a can will have twang, but perhaps stored poorly, exposed to heat, left too long etc?


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## Goose (4/2/14)

yum beer said:


> The twang IMO comes from the can.
> I brewed plenty of brews that had the twang, some had less than others but it was always there.
> Process, additions, ingredients....they made the twang less noticeable.
> I made a 'coopers recipe of the month' a few months ago from prize winnings......The Anzac Ale.
> ...



yep agreed. The other thing is repeatability .... you can get a kit brew with little or no twang, think you've nailed it and the next one, despite identical processes is vile in style...


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## Mattrox (5/2/14)

Goose said:


> mostly agree but I think "twang" is a term attributable from the stuff in the can and not the process or whatever you add to it afterward.
> 
> 
> I don't think so. the "homebrew taste" is something that brewers aspire to remove. I don't think any addition or compliment from the AG process will remove the "homebrew taste". It might negate or mask it slightly....
> ...



I don't think a can automatically adds "twang". I think it is a number of things if it is simply goop in a can and unavoidable, why is it not present in some of the brews I do. I know I am a noob to brews, however a mate years a go put down a number of brews where I assisted in part or most of the process. He did not have the means to buy extra ingredients eg good yeast, grains etc nor the ability to control temperature. ( His wife, now ex, spend every last cent after bills were paid, sometimes before so he had literally no cash left for his hobby). Some brews he put down did have an identifiable "twang", not so bad as to render it undrinkable or unenjoyable. Others were quite good, better than mega swill but not quite up to a standard that would garner worthy praise. When I compare the (just a few so far) brews I have put down with better yeast, gains for steeping and a temperature appropriate for the yeast I use, there is not that same twang. For example, the Aztec gold (coopers recipe which I followed to the T) that I first brewed, was as more enjoyable than a mid-strength mega swill lager. No twang. Not a great beer, but very encouraging for a noob brewer. I did a Eurpoean lager next and added crystal and hops with a proper lager yeast. I also lagered on the yeast cake for 3 months. The flavour and aroma was much more herbacious than commercial brews and that did put some mega swill drinkers off. At first they commented that it was a very good beer, but added a qualifier about the herbyness. I drank it side by side to Stella and Heiniken .... Stella, both the BUL and imported, and I did prefer mine. (I know I am biased) I am going to brew it again and get SWMBO to do a blind tasting for me.I don't claim that my European lager is as good as AG or Partial, but it beat the brand names for mine.

I think that an AG brewer has much more control over the process and can select the exact ingredients to make an outstanding brew. Once you taste this and become accustomed to it, a KnK or extract or even partial won't be as good and you will identify it as homebrew, but that isn't "twang".

I also posit that a can does not automatically add "twang". I believe a number of factors contribute..... age of can, a damaged can allows the goop to come in direct contact with metal. But by far the biggest factors if the first two are avoided (fresh, undamaged cans) will be yeast, brew temps and the sugars used. Perhap a cheap can of malt vs a premium can might have an effect, but I have not experimented with this. I have only brewed Coopers and Black Rock so far and wouldn't touch a Brigalow or Tooheys or Homebrand etc.

I think that terms can't be used interchangeably. "Twang" should have a proper definiton for homebrewers rather than be a vague concept. I have had many homebrews that did not have a twang like my old mate's brew did, but you could tell they were not commercial. More earthy, the hops treatment gave a different experience than commercial beers, or the beer was slightly too malty ie a homebrew taste was imparted to the beer, but no off flavours that I'd describe as twang.

I hope that makes sense.

I also think that some times a "homebrew taste" is not actually a "homebrew" taste, it is a yeast taste. I have formed this opinion because mega swill paturises and filters out yeast. When I compare bottle conditioned commercial beer to homebrews the residual yeast does have a flavour. I must admit that all the homebrews I have tried are either KnK or extract as none of my mates do AG brewing. But the familiar yeast taste of homebrew is present in many craft beers I try. Could this be called "twang" by a mega swill drinker who habitually buys the exact same pasturised and filtered beer?

I know this post is in the TL;DR zone now......... and I should have posted it in the other thread on the other board, but the themes crossed over.

Twang for me = off or unusual flavours
"Homebrew taste" = "I know this stuff is not commercial", but it still could be a ripping beer that is better than commercial.


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## Rod (5/2/14)

JDW81 said:


> Very true. A mate of mine, who is about to jump into AG, has been brewing extract for about 12-18 months and makes cracking beer. He uses good yeast, has good sanitisation and good temp control. His extract dunkle is a thing of beauty.
> 
> JD


I am mainly into extracts

any chance of the dunkle recipe , I assume it is dunkel


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## pcmfisher (5/2/14)

Mattrox said:


> I don't think a can automatically adds "twang". I think it is a number of things if it is simply goop in a can and unavoidable, why is it not present in some of the brews I do. I know I am a noob to brews, however a mate years a go put down a number of brews where I assisted in part or most of the process. He did not have the means to buy extra ingredients eg good yeast, grains etc nor the ability to control temperature. ( His wife, now ex, spend every last cent after bills were paid, sometimes before so he had literally no cash left for his hobby). Some brews he put down did have an identifiable "twang", not so bad as to render it undrinkable or unenjoyable. Others were quite good, better than mega swill but not quite up to a standard that would garner worthy praise. When I compare the (just a few so far) brews I have put down with better yeast, gains for steeping and a temperature appropriate for the yeast I use, there is not that same twang. For example, the Aztec gold (coopers recipe which I followed to the T) that I first brewed, was as more enjoyable than a mid-strength mega swill lager. No twang. Not a great beer, but very encouraging for a noob brewer. I did a Eurpoean lager next and added crystal and hops with a proper lager yeast. I also lagered on the yeast cake for 3 months. The flavour and aroma was much more herbacious than commercial brews and that did put some mega swill drinkers off. At first they commented that it was a very good beer, but added a qualifier about the herbyness. I drank it side by side to Stella and Heiniken .... Stella, both the BUL and imported, and I did prefer mine. (I know I am biased) I am going to brew it again and get SWMBO to do a blind tasting for me.I don't claim that my European lager is as good as AG or Partial, but it beat the brand names for mine.
> 
> I think that an AG brewer has much more control over the process and can select the exact ingredients to make an outstanding brew. Once you taste this and become accustomed to it, a KnK or extract or even partial won't be as good and you will identify it as homebrew, but that isn't "twang".
> 
> ...


Twang for me = Homebrew taste = bad flavours that should not be in beer. You can taste it and you can smell it. I think it has all to do with pre hopped kits as I do not get it from my extract brews.

I think maybe you should make or try some well made All Grain or even unhopped extract brews and you will realize that, looking back, all of the kit brews you have tasted actually did have twang/homebrew taste regardless of how good you thought they were at the time or still think they are.


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## MHB (5/2/14)

[SIZE=medium]I think the main cause of “Kit Twang” is under pitching, but the basics of making good beer remain the same for kit, extract and all grain brewers.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Hygiene – good cleaning and sterilising is the foundation of all brewing, from K&K to mega-brewers.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Temperature control over the ferment – brew in a fridge with a temperature controller and ideally a fan in there to.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Good ingredients make good beer – fresh kits and extract (liquid) avoid too much sucrose except where it’s a part of the style (Belgian and some English pale ales). When yeast detects Sucrose it excretes Invertase into solution, this could be a part of the change in flavour people experience when they use a lot of white sugar[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Pitch enough yeast, the little 5-6g packets under the lid just don’t cut it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]If you made a standard kit with 1 Kg of Dry Malt Extract to 23L the OG should be about 1.041 (10.25o[/SIZE]P) (Plato is another way to measure gravity).
[SIZE=medium]The recommended amount of Ale Yeast is 0.4-1 Million cells/mL of Wort/1o[/SIZE]P
[SIZE=medium]Using a mid range pitch 0.7 Million – 0.7*10^6*23*10^3*10.25 = 1.65*10^11 cells[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]If you were using US-05 one of the most popular yeasts around here you will see there are at least 6*10^9cells/g so you would need 27.5g call it 2 packs of US-05 or 4-5 small packs usually found under tin lids (yes I know it’s not US-05 and that the cell count isn’t identical but close enough) for a mid range pitch.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Don’t leave the brew on the yeast cake too long – about 2 weeks is the maximum recommended time, after that the yeast will start cannibalising old yeast and you get a marked increase in lipids and fusels in the beer.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Crash chilling the beer will make it much more acceptable to your friends[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Mark[/SIZE]


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## Joel Mcleod (24/3/14)

MHB said:


> [SIZE=medium]I think the main cause of “Kit Twang” is under pitching, but the basics of making good beer remain the same for kit, extract and all grain brewers.[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=medium]Hygiene – good cleaning and sterilising is the foundation of all brewing, from K&K to mega-brewers.[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=medium]Temperature control over the ferment – brew in a fridge with a temperature controller and ideally a fan in there to.[/SIZE]
> ...


Nailed it. Anyone how does all of those things will get consistent, great tasting beer.


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## jkhlt1210 (24/3/14)

MHB said:


> I think the main cause of “Kit Twang” is under pitching, but the basics of making good beer remain the same for kit, extract and all grain brewers.
> 
> Hygiene – good cleaning and sterilising is the foundation of all brewing, from K&K to mega-brewers.
> Temperature control over the ferment – brew in a fridge with a temperature controller and ideally a fan in there to.
> ...


 G'day


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## carniebrew (24/3/14)

Liquid v Dried makes little difference if they're both handled/stored correctly. Liquid malt can suffer more from being mis-treated, e.g. exposed to heat. 

I recall reading some threads from Homebrewtalk over in the US where some brewers insist they get less 'twang' from DME, but again, they could have been using old/badly treated LME.


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## jkhlt1210 (24/3/14)

carniebrew said:


> Liquid v Dried makes little difference if they're both handled/stored correctly. Liquid malt can suffer more from being mis-treated, e.g. exposed to heat.
> 
> I recall reading some threads from Homebrewtalk over in the US where some brewers insist they get less 'twang' from DME, but again, they could have been using old/badly treated LME.


 Ok so not much difference cool thanks for that


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## manticle (24/3/14)

Liquid also contains water so the you cannot sub 1kg dried for one kilo liquid and get the same gravity.


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## Bribie G (24/3/14)

Unlike the USA where companies such as Briess make dried malt extract specifically for the big extract home brew market that exists in the US, Australian made dried malt extract is made for the confectionery and baking industry. I'd guess that a single night shift run of Maltesers or Arnotts Tiny Teddies would use more LDME than sold in all the home brew shops in Australia in a year. They wouldn't give a F about whether it's suitable for home brew. I found in my KnK days that light dried often chucked a horrible chill haze.

If using liquid I'd go for dedicated home brew liquid malt extract such as Coopers or Morgans produced out of their own mash tuns. Problem is that they could have been on the shelves of the LHBS for a year.


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## manticle (24/3/14)

You can buy briess and weyerman extract here. I'd be going for that. Briess do dried and liquid I believe - Weyerman do liquid. Expensive but still cheaper than buying beer.


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## MHB (24/3/14)

jkhlt1210
Hard question to answer with an either or
Over the last couple of years there has been a huge increase in both the range and quality of extract (both LME and DME) and sadly the range of quality to.
Add Coopers, Black Rock and Muntons to the Weyermann and Briess mentioned above, all are produced by companies whose main focus is on brewing or brewing ingredients, they all have excellent products and all are reasonably available in Australia. They all have characteristic flavours and you will have to do a bit of experimenting to find which suits your taste best.
Nabisco produce confectionary/baking LME in Australia, it may be good for making bickeys but it really isn't up to snuff for brewing; and I got some samples of a Chinese DME that still makes me shudder when I think it may be going into beer.

Given that it is fresh and well looked after I think you can get a better flavour out of LME, I suspect when they take out that extra 16-18% moisture to make LME into DME they take out some more of the aromatic fractions with the water, it might be subtle, but if pressed I would say LME is to be preferred over DME, just.
Down side being it stales and darkens faster, DME stores better so its going to come down to how good your supply is and how much you want to buy and your taste - as always with brewing, your brewing for you not me so your taste will be the final arbiter.
Mark


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## jkhlt1210 (25/3/14)

G'day Mark 
Thankyou very much for your reply much appreciated. I have read your posts and you really know your stuff. Thanks to everyone else also.


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## jkhlt1210 (25/3/14)

G'day Mark another question not on topic but I'm doing a hop hog extract brew on the weekend off this forum. Just wondering from what you said on under pitching it's a volume of 21 litres so should I pitch two packets of US-05??


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## MHB (25/3/14)

From the calculation above, using an OG of 1.060 and a mid range pitch 0.7Mc/ml and your volume of 21L or 21,000 mL 16.25oP X 21,000 X 700,000 = 238875000000 cells at 6x10^9 comes to dam near 40g so the best answer is closer to 4 packets, but I know that’s going to stretch the friendship 3 would be better than 2 would beat the hell out of 1.
Mark


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## verysupple (25/3/14)

MHB said:


> From the calculation above, using an OG of 1.060 and a mid range pitch 0.7Mc/ml and your volume of 21L or 21,000 mL 16.25oP X 21,000 X 700,000 = 238875000000 cells at 6x10^9 comes to dam near 40g so the best answer is closer to 4 packets, but I know that’s going to stretch the friendship 3 would be better than 2 would beat the hell out of 1.
> Mark


6 billion cells/g is the _minimum_ for US-05. Quite a few well respected brewers and brewing scientists have counted the number to be closer to 20 billion/g. The viability won't be 100% so an estimate might be ~15 billion/g for reasonably handled packages. So a pitching rate of 0.7Mc/mL for 21 L @ 1.060 (14.7 P, not 16.25 P btw) needs ~216 billion cells. At 15 billion cells/g you would need 14.4 g or 1.25 packets. You could get away with 1 packet if you rehydrate it properly, but I'd go with 1.25 - 2 packets. There's no harm in pitching a bit more.

EDIT: BTW 15 billion/g is a conservative estimate given that when refrigerated dry yeast will lose ~4% viability per year.


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## jkhlt1210 (25/3/14)

MHB said:


> From the calculation above, using an OG of 1.060 and a mid range pitch 0.7Mc/ml and your volume of 21L or 21,000 mL 16.25oP X 21,000 X 700,000 = 238875000000 cells at 6x10^9 comes to dam near 40g so the best answer is closer to 4 packets, but I know that’s going to stretch the friendship 3 would be better than 2 would beat the hell out of 1.
> Mark


 Ok cool thanks again Mark for your expert advice. I will definitely make sure I don't under pitch anymore.


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## MHB (25/3/14)

verysupple said:


> 6 billion cells/g is the _minimum_ for US-05. Quite a few well respected brewers and brewing scientists have counted the number to be closer to 20 billion/g. The viability won't be 100% so an estimate might be ~15 billion/g for reasonably handled packages. So a pitching rate of 0.7Mc/mL for 21 L @ 1.060 (14.7 P, not 16.25 P btw) needs ~216 billion cells. At 15 billion cells/g you would need 14.4 g or 1.25 packets. You could get away with 1 packet if you rehydrate it properly, but I'd go with 1.25 - 2 packets. There's no harm in pitching a bit more.
> 
> EDIT: BTW 15 billion/g is a conservative estimate given that when refrigerated dry yeast will lose ~4% viability per year.


Yes you are right it’s closer to 14.7oP than 16.25 oP, I fat fingered the calculator sorry.
I’m not going to agree entirely with the rest of what is posted
First up that 20Bc/g, well that’s a number I have seen Jamil Zainasheff bandy around, I haven’t really seen it from anyone else, Jamil might be a respected brewer but he doesn’t I believe claim to be a brewing scientist. If you can find any other references I would like to see them.
I agree that the fatality rate for well stored (refrigerated) dry yeast is around 4%/year, 20% fatality at 20oC is the other number widely used, if at the end of 2 years (the best before date on Saf yeast) there are at least 6X10^9 viable cells per gram, at 20% loss per year there would have needed to be 9.375x10^9 c/g when it left the factory. Less than half the reported 2X10^10 c/g now even if Saf are giving them self a bit of a cushion I would doubt it would be over 100%, by some reports even Jamil has said he didn’t know if they were alive or dead cells he was counting. Mind you if about half the cells die during drying and Saf have included a bit of a margin then Jamil may in fact have seen his 20 billion.
So if you are absolutely certain that your yeast has been looked after perfectly through its entire life, you might be comfortable using a cell count a bit higher than 6X10^9, but I think 15B/g far from being conservative, is very ambitious.
Mark


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## verysupple (26/3/14)

MHB said:


> Yes you are right it’s closer to 14.7oP than 16.25 oP, I fat fingered the calculator sorry.
> I’m not going to agree entirely with the rest of what is posted
> First up that 20Bc/g, well that’s a number I have seen Jamil Zainasheff bandy around, I haven’t really seen it from anyone else, Jamil might be a respected brewer but he doesn’t I believe claim to be a brewing scientist. If you can find any other references I would like to see them.
> I agree that the fatality rate for well stored (refrigerated) dry yeast is around 4%/year, 20% fatality at 20oC is the other number widely used, if at the end of 2 years (the best before date on Saf yeast) there are at least 6X10^9 viable cells per gram, at 20% loss per year there would have needed to be 9.375x10^9 c/g when it left the factory. Less than half the reported 2X10^10 c/g now even if Saf are giving them self a bit of a cushion I would doubt it would be over 100%, by some reports even Jamil has said he didn’t know if they were alive or dead cells he was counting. Mind you if about half the cells die during drying and Saf have included a bit of a margin then Jamil may in fact have seen his 20 billion.
> ...


Jamil is probably the most quoted on this, but I really only believed it when I read it from Calyton Cone, who I doubt many people would be willing to disagree with on anything yeast related (http://koehlerbeer.wordpress.com/2008/06/07/rehydrating-dry-yeast-with-dr-clayton-cone/ it's in the 5th last paragraph). I trust that when he reported these numbers he used a robust method for determining viability (note that he specifically writes "20 billion live yeast cells"). Also, I've done the cell count myself. I used methylene blue staining to determine viability, however it is well documented that this method if very unreliable for viabilities below 90 %, so I'm not going to say anything about viability. I will repeat the viability measurements some time in the future using the alkaline methylene blue method which is quite accurate even at very low viabilities.

I can only assume that the minimum 6 billion c/g is a conservative number based on if the yeast was mishandled and stored/transported at temps higher than 20 C, which is not out of the question when cheap shipping is used.

There is, of course, another approach. I pitch based on the weight of dried yeast rather than actual cell counts (I can't be bothered doing a cell count for every batch). Fermentis recommend 0.5 - 0.8 g/L for US-05, so I simply use 0.5 g/L for lower gravity brews and scale with gravity. Incidentally, for the 20 L brew from above, at the high end of 0.8 g/L you need 16 g or 1.4 packets - even Fermentis don't recommed 3 - 4 packets.

In the end, it's the result that counts, not how many viable cells you pitched. You just need to record what you did so when it turns out great you can do it again.

As a side note, if I had to pitch 3 packets of dry yeast I'd actually buy liquid and make a starter because it'd be cheaper and I don't mind spending the effort. But that's just me.


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## MHB (26/3/14)

Fair enough cant really argue with Dr Cone, It is unfortunately extremely difficult to get firm consistent numbers for dry yeast.
In the Saf US-05 speck sheet attached there appear to be three quite different statements on the amount of yeast you should use, but the one I find most telling is the last one down the bottom with the other microbial information _"*when dry yeast is pitched at 100 g/hl i.e. > 6 x 106 viable cells / ml" _ so at 1g/l we should be getting more than 6 million cells / mL (we don't know how much more), but based on the pitch calculation used above we want 0.7 X10^6 * 14.7 = 10.3X10^6, getting close to 1.5g/L. quite at odds with the pitch rate recommended earlier on the same page.

It wasn't my intention to take this thread off into a detailed discussion on pitching rates, more to emphasise how important it is to use an appropriate amount of healthy yeast to insure good quick clean fermentation as one of the keys to making good beer
Mark

View attachment SafaleUS05.pdf


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## Batz (26/3/14)

verysupple said:


> As a side note, if I had to pitch 3 packets of dry yeast I'd actually buy liquid and make a starter because it'd be cheaper and I don't mind spending the effort. But that's just me.



There's a lot of good info in this thread, but verysupple has hit in on the head as far as this yeast question goes.


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## verysupple (30/3/14)

I didn't intend to get this far OT either, so this'll be my last post on yeast cell count rates.



MHB said:


> _..."*when dry yeast is pitched at 100 g/hl i.e. > 6 x 106 viable cells / ml" _ so at 1g/l we should be getting more than 6 million cells / mL (we don't know how much more),...


Yeah, I noticed that too. But that statement actually agrees with the info higher up on the page. Both statments say that there are greater than 6 x 109 cells/g. So at least they're consistent in that respect. Although it would be nice if they gave a narrower range, with some qualifyers to cover themselves legally. e.g. "If handled appropriately (including reydration practices) each gram of dried yeast will contain x ± y viable cells."





MHB said:


> It wasn't my intention to take this thread off into a detailed discussion on pitching rates, more to emphasise how important it is to use an appropriate amount of healthy yeast to insure good quick clean fermentation as one of the keys to making good beer
> Mark


Now that IS something we can agree on.


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## Forever Wort (2/4/14)

Briess liquid extract can be gotten for cheap prices. It's not uncommon to get Pilsener light for $11.50 (blend includes CaraPils) and others for $13.50. Plus you get a handy plastic jar to store your speciality grains, hops and yeast in for later.


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## carniebrew (2/4/14)

Forever Wort said:


> Briess liquid extract can be gotten for cheap prices. It's not uncommon to get Pilsener light for $11.50 (blend includes CaraPils) and others for $13.50. Plus you get a handy plastic jar to store your speciality grains, hops and yeast in for later.


I used to buy the 15kg "growlers" of Briess LME from Grain & Grape...it's already good value at ~$89 (under $6 per kg), and even better when you get it during G&G's 20% off sale, when it's $4.75 per kg (or like paying $7 for a 1.5kg can).

And you end up with a handy 10 litre 'cube' to use for no chilling small batch brews or storing diluted starsan, etc....


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## monkeymagik (3/4/14)

I've found since I've been bulk priming I get that surprised "this tastes exactly like Little Creatures" look from people.


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## Forever Wort (4/4/14)

carniebrew said:


> I used to buy the 15kg "growlers" of Briess LME from Grain & Grape...it's already good value at ~$89 (under $6 per kg), and even better when you get it during G&G's 20% off sale, when it's $4.75 per kg (or like paying $7 for a 1.5kg can).
> 
> And you end up with a handy 10 litre 'cube' to use for no chilling small batch brews or storing diluted starsan, etc....


I'd like to do this but my only concern is the fiddliness of working with such a large amount of goop.


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## carniebrew (4/4/14)

Yeah, my problem was remembering to take it out of the fridge far enough in advance so that it'd warm up a bit. Pouring goop at ~4C takes a loooooong time....


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## bigmacthepunker (16/4/14)

Rye ebb


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## Rdyno (26/5/14)

I just want to say something, it is immensely better waking up after two or three days on the piss with a blander taste in you mouth like a CUB beer, the craft beers are heavy with flavour that is not desirable after MASSIVE drinking sessions. In saying that where I'm from VB and Carlton Draught and for the old blokes Reches are the major beers when I went to NZ Lion Red was the major working class beer most people here that have tried it think it tastes like shit? I thought Lion Red tasted good my dad is from NZ and still buys VB over there as he's drank it for 30 years lol.

So some people just like what they are used to, but the continuous drinking taste is a big factor if you could reproduce the same taste over and over you may get sick of it, try this with craft beers at the shop drink only one beer as much as you can and see how long till you want to change. This is where I can see the good part of mass produced beers yes they may be bland but they are like pasta and rice as in they are a staple, think of it this way if you eat rice every day imagine what a desert or a roast would taste like.

I enjoy my craft beers and home brewing but I cant drink very tastey beers all night every night as that is like eating only desert every night for dinner


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## skb (26/5/14)

Rdyno said:


> I just want to say something, it is immensely better waking up after two or three days on the piss with a blander taste in you mouth like a CUB beer, the craft beers are heavy with flavour that is not desirable after MASSIVE drinking sessions. In saying that where I'm from VB and Carlton Draught and for the old blokes Reches are the major beers when I went to NZ Lion Red was the major working class beer most people here that have tried it think it tastes like shit? I thought Lion Red tasted good my dad is from NZ and still buys VB over there as he's drank it for 30 years lol.
> 
> So some people just like what they are used to, but the continuous drinking taste is a big factor if you could reproduce the same taste over and over you may get sick of it, try this with craft beers at the shop drink only one beer as much as you can and see how long till you want to change. This is where I can see the good part of mass produced beers yes they may be bland but they are like pasta and rice as in they are a staple, think of it this way if you eat rice every day imagine what a desert or a roast would taste like.
> 
> I enjoy my craft beers and home brewing but I cant drink very tastey beers all night every night as that is like eating only desert every night for dinner




I agree part from one critical point, for some reason I find well made homebrew never gives me a hangover.... VB however gives me a very rough morning after


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## heshtek (26/5/14)

I'm only a beer n00b that has made several kits tweaked with some hops / malt etc. Never done all grain brewing. That said, I've never made a beer that tastes like a commercial one. But sometimes I will drink a nice beer that I've made myself and think that commercial beer companies will never make a beer that tastes like mine (in a good way that is).  The more I drink those commercial ones the crapper I think they taste. Certain commercial beers are ok I suppose but those mass produced ones are really lacking on flavour in my opinion.


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## SnakeDoctor (27/5/14)

Rdyno from PF returns!


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## Kiwifirst (27/5/14)

When I first started brewing I made a couple of mistakes regularly, that affected my beer and gave me a 'homebrew' taste.

1. Aeration on the hot wort. I used to boil up my extract and kit, the tip it into the bottom of the fermenter, then add water, the whole thing splashed around like an aqua park.

2. Bottled too early. In my eagerness to get it bottled, conditioned and drank, I would get it into the bottle as quick as I thought possible. 'Close enough' for FG was the norm, especially when it slowed down. 

Mmmmm oxidised beer that was over carbonated. My Carlton draught friends liked it.


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## shaunous (4/6/14)

Truman said:


> If your mates drink VB and other megaswill thats your problem right there. They expect beer to be bland and watered down, and drank icy cold to disguise the vile taste.
> 
> My partners ex husband is like that. If I offer him one of my homebrews he knocks it back and would rather drink the megaswill I have in the fridge that other people have left. He wont even try my beer saying he hates the taste of homebrew. (At least im getting rid of the megaswill I would never touch anyway I suppose.)
> 
> Try serving your home brew to craft beer drinkers and you generally get a different story.


More to the point, what the hell are you offering your partners ex-husband beers for? 




beno1 said:


> Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question but does anyone have any tips. on how to get rid if that "homebrew taste" i have been only brewing a but over a year and am an partial mash brewer/ extract. i have made some very nice beers that ive been very happy with but id like to be able to get them so other people wouldn't know its homebrew beer. i use good qaulity yeast, follow temp control very well etc. any help would be appreciated Cheers



When I started homebrewing 90% of mates hated it, the longer I have been doing it, and the more they try different ones they are liking it, and im probably sitting at around 60% of mates hating it, but then there is their mates who have tasted my beers who are mates of mates who I see walking around the street I hardly know, telling me they tried a beer that was mine that I gave someone.

People are coming around to proper beers, but in saying that, they mainly only like my Pale Ales and Indian Pale Ales, they still dont like Porters, Stouts and well lets just say the Rye beer wasnt a hit with most of them 

Carry on brewing, use the coopers Malt Extract cans instead of sugars, and bitter and flavour with fresh hops, steep grains like crystal and choc to give different flavours.
Even though I have a 3v rig, I still do partials and they dont have the Kit&Kilo homebrew twang you speak of.


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## Truman42 (4/6/14)

shaunous said:


> More to the point, what the hell are you offering your partners ex-husband beers for?


We get along well. Hes a decent guy and has recently re-married. And besides that I have to get rid of my megaswill somehow..


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## Eagleburger (4/6/14)

Every ex's of every partner I have had was smarter than me :blink: . So of course I would share a beer.

I have my first partial ready to keg tonight. After doing only all grain previously I am a little worried about any twang.


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## shaunous (4/6/14)

Eagleburger said:


> I have my first partial ready to keg tonight. After doing only all grain previously I am a little worried about any twang.


As I said, I dont get it in my IPA and PA partials I do, 'She'll Be Right Mate' :lol:


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## storeboughtcheeseburgers (4/6/14)

I don't know if the hombrew taste is being critiqued by your friends or its your opinion. The forum has become too long to find that particular answer haha. I think there is a big difference between 'people who like beer' and 'people who like variety' - all the New XXXX VB carlton stuff that is on tap at pubs is aimed to create a uniform taste, the same every time.

I think its definitely possible to make beer as good if not better than the stuff you buy on the shelves. A lot of the imported stuff is often stale (if its true import) or near being used by I have noticed lately. Also, the becks and stellas etc are brewed under licence here in Australia, and I can assure you are not as nice as they are in other places. May even be slightly altered for aussie tastes, or what have you.

Australia was founded on fast fermented ales, especially in colonial days as the ales would stay fresh longer for transport from India and mother England. But over time the move has been towards lagers. Now, I love a good Aussie lager, Boags premium probably being my favourite.. but when it comes to actual flavour, I find it gets old fast so I like to mix it up with some homebrew or even store bought ales with different hops and additions.

I think Australia mainstream beer drinkers are scared by a bit of bitterness - and if you drink your homebrew too young and you've dry hopped late, it can take a while for the bitterness to subside. Generally 3 weeks minimum is the rule.

So in a nut shell, I don't think it is the 'home brew' taste people don't like, its the 'ale' and 'hops' taste they are just not used to.


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## TheWiggman (4/6/14)

Dunno SBCB (still trying to get over that name), I agree that the general population don't favour ales but I think that mainly due to the push from the big brewers with all their mainstay alcohols being lagers. It's something they're used to. My brother, who's 19, is a New devotee and when I mentioned I was afer a Fat Yak (only real option at the place we were) he said "ugh, I can't do pale ales". Then later when I offered him one of my commercial pilsners he said he wasn't a pilsner fan. This is a pretty small sample size, but I think people largely prefer whatever they've been brought up on and especially at a young age, it's not so much about the taste as it is how many you can drink quickly. Even though he was challenging tastes.
I remember being at uni and someone offered me a sip of his LCPA. It was like my tastebuds were being born again. "So this is what 'other' beers are about" I thought. And this coming from somone who drank Carlton Cold and Tooheys Red.

Then when I started doing kits, ales or otherwise, they definitely had the home brew taste about them. Even when I dicked around a bit with temp control and hops, I still couldn't make a beer I genuinely enjoyed.

As for being able to make good and bad beer, this is where the 'home brew taste' can be separated. I now do AG and I took my recent attempt at a lager to Taree last week for my brother to have a try. Quote: "This is better than a New". Not "good for a home brew", it was out of that home brew twang class for many of the reasons above. I've spent years questing this.

I've tasted others' home brews that were good home brews. I've made one good kit home brew myself. They still however tasted _like home brew_.

I reckon you can make a good home brew that tastes like home brew.
You can also make a good home brew that doesn't taste like home brew.
You can also make a bad home brew that doesn't taste like home brew - just like there are commercial beers that you don't like. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it taste like home brew.

In my opinion the big difference is -

Moving away from kit yeast (moreover, appropriate yeast and pitching rates)
Moving away from kits
Temp control
Fresh, quality ingredients
Using the right water


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