# Boiling the alcohol out of beer for a N/A brew



## SJW (1/5/16)

Ok, I'm still going alcohol free for 12 months, till 20th April 2017, but have had a couple of the Coopers Ulta Lights that got me thinking. So rather than selling off all my gear I might start thinking about making low/no alcohol beer. I know Coopers Ultra is 0.5%.
Have read all there is to read on the net and have decided on the following method, using my Braumeister.

Make a normal beer that I have made before, preferably a malt driven lager or pale ale. Was thinking of not adding any hops during the initial boil. Then ferment as normal. Then prior to kegging, adding back to the BM and boil for 60min to drive off alcohol and boil hops as recipe requires. Then add water to top up for second boil loss.
I understand that heating to 78.5 deg C will vaporise or evaporate alcohol, but why not flat out boil to drive off alcohol and do hopping at the same time.
Cool then keg.
Would love to know what MHB has to say on this subject. I understand that I could never drive off all the alcohol especially if Coopers can't do it, but short of reverse osmosis surly this method would work?


Steve


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## GalBrew (1/5/16)

Why not boil a commercial beer and find out?


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## Maheel (1/5/16)

your beer = Alcohol / water + other stuff mix and will want to boil at more than 78.5 as that it the temp of boiling pure alc nto your mix.

it will work to remove alc but what it will taste like is another issue.

could you just go boil a beer from a bottle, chill it back down and try it.... if you have a carb cap thing you could try carbing it back up


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## barls (1/5/16)

it will change the flavours, your flavour and aroma will be converted to more bitterness.
personally id brew at about 1035 gravity and about 32-35 ibu and just force carb it unfermented.


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## Maheel (1/5/16)

barls said:


> it will change the flavours, your flavour and aroma will be converted to more bitterness.
> personally id brew at about 1035 gravity and about 32-35 ibu and just force carb it unfermented.


i had that idea but wont it be too sweet like drinking syrup?

fermenting then hopping on post ferment boil may get you closer to taste ?


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## Ducatiboy stu (1/5/16)

What you want to do is boil it under vacume


Think keg, burner and vacuum pump. Not as hard as you think


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## S.E (1/5/16)

barls said:


> it will change the flavours, your flavour and aroma will be converted to more bitterness.
> personally id brew at about 1035 gravity and about 32-35 ibu and just force carb it unfermented.


[SIZE=11pt]You forgot to use the emoticons to show you’re not being serious.  [/SIZE]


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## mattjm (1/5/16)

Side note: what did you think of the ultra, I saw hahn is also doing an ultra light. I haven't tasted either but interested what the consensus is, I personally found I enjoyed hahn super dry 3.5 over their full strength offering but Ive never gone lower than that as Ive never enjoyed comercial lights (hahn/fosters).


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## barls (1/5/16)

Maheel said:


> i had that idea but wont it be too sweet like drinking syrup?
> 
> fermenting then hopping on post ferment boil may get you closer to taste ?


you need about that number of ibus to balance it out. 
i did make one when i was working at a brewery and we well over shot the ibus and it was around that number and it was actually pleasant to drink.


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## SJW (1/5/16)

mattjm said:


> Side note: what did you think of the ultra, I saw hahn is also doing an ultra light. I haven't tasted either but interested what the consensus is


Well after drinking ever increasing IBU brews and alcohol brews for near 20 years it's tastes pretty thin. But it's interesting to have a "beer" and have no buzz. I've only had 1 and it was fine. Would be great on a hot day after mowing ect. Need to cut out the alcohol. Even after 10 days dry my wife said tonight I'm a lot more involved and plugged in around the house and seem happier. I don't miss the strong stuff but it did feel good to have that brown glass stubble in my had today even if it was Ultra Light.


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## MHB (1/5/16)

Hey Steve
I would make beer the normal way, then try to dealcoholize it rather than boiling after fermentation.
There are lots of reactions that take place during a boil and I have no idea exactly what will happen to the flavours but suspect nothing too good. The would be some colour development and some of the products from the yeast could react in very strange ways.
On the yeast, make sure the beer is as yeast free as possible before you heat it, cooked yeast isn't an attractive flavour.

If you just add the finished beer to the BM and set the temperature to 80oC or just a bit higher in manual mode, until you know the cycle time then you could just program it.
Big advantage of the BM is the very low watt density element, the very gentle heat should do less harm to the flavour than would a fire or shorter element.
It might be worth playing around with a bit of dry hopping post heating to add back some aromatics that will be lost, or make some highly hopped beer and add a little back after the heat, it would add very little alcohol but should build up the flavour.

Remember Alcohol vapor is very flammable, well ventilated area, open a window... don't burn the house down. I'm sure the missus would be ticked.
Mark


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## danestead (1/5/16)

From tasting unfermented wort with lots of hops, it is very astringent. I think the fermentation has a lot to do with the final flavour of the hops.


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## S.E (1/5/16)

barls said:


> you need about that number of ibus to balance it out.
> i did make one when i was working at a brewery and we well over shot the ibus and it was around that number and it was actually pleasant to drink.


[SIZE=11pt]So just to ensure we are understanding this correctly, when you worked in a commercial? brewery they produced and sold a low/non alcoholic beer by bottling/kegging un-fermented wort? [/SIZE]


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## SJW (1/5/16)

MHB said:


> Hey Steve
> I would make beer the normal way, then try to dealcoholize it rather than boiling after fermentation.
> There are lots of reactions that take place during a boil and I have no idea exactly what will happen to the flavours but suspect nothing too good. The would be some colour development and some of the products from the yeast could react in very strange ways.
> On the yeast, make sure the beer is as yeast free as possible before you heat it, cooked yeast isn't an attractive flavour.
> ...


Thanks mate, just the advice I was after. Thanks again, hope life is good for you bro.

Steve


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## Blind Dog (1/5/16)

To me, all commercial alcohol free or damn close beers have a really nasty, almost metallic, aftertaste. I've tried a number of times to get a decent really low ABV beer. Best I've done yet was a mild, mashed high, a smidge of EKG to about 5 IBU, fermented with wlp002, then gelatine and twice filtered, then heated at 85C on the BM for an hour with EKG added half way through. It's a lot of work, doesn't quite taste like beer, but it's a better drink the any ultra low alc commercial beer I've ever had.

But, and it's a fairly big but, the alcoholic version of the same mild at a mere 3.2% is soooo much better


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## Charst (1/5/16)

mattjm said:


> Side note: what did you think of the ultra, I saw hahn is also doing an ultra light. I haven't tasted either but interested what the consensus is, I personally found I enjoyed hahn super dry 3.5 over their full strength offering but Ive never gone lower than that as Ive never enjoyed comercial lights (hahn/fosters).


Ive tried the ultra, for a .9% beer is taste ok actually, has a bit of malt and hops, better than any beer that low ive tried and ive been through alot of them, has a slight rose water aroma to me.


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## danestead (1/5/16)

There is a very low alc beer in the brew dog document. I can't vouch for what it tastes like but it could be worth looking at.


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## barls (2/5/16)

S.E said:


> [SIZE=11pt]So just to ensure we are understanding this correctly, when you worked in a commercial? brewery they produced and sold a low/non alcoholic beer by bottling/kegging un-fermented wort? [/SIZE]


does it matter if we sold it or not.
i was giving an answer to the question.
have you not had https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_172708/schlossgold-non-alcoholic-beer


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## dannymars (2/5/16)

When I'm having a break from beer/alcohol I usually drink kombucha, might not be to your tastes, but it does it for me. It's somewhere around 0.5%ABV

You can use your brewing gear to make 20 litre batches of it. It's fairly easy and you can use super cheap black n gold tea, it doesn't have to be the good stuff. 

You could try sweetening the tea with wort instead of sugar, might give it a more malty taste (I've not tried this, but now I think I might)....


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## Blind Dog (2/5/16)

danestead said:


> There is a very low alc beer in the brew dog document. I can't vouch for what it tastes like but it could be worth looking at.


Nanny State at 0.5% ABV, 800g of malt, 55 IBU and 187.5g dry hop! I suspect it'll taste like hop infused water, but I might just give it a whirl


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## wobbly (3/5/16)

It seems that the additional boiling to drive off alcohol and add bitterness (IBU) may not be a good way to go.

So would it be a solution to produce an unhopped wort-ferment-heat to say 80C to drive off the alcohol and then use "hop shots" to add IBU/flavour

Wobbly


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## CmdrRyekr (3/5/16)

Naa, doesn't work mate. The beer turns out terrible.


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## Jack of all biers (3/5/16)

barls said:


> does it matter if we sold it or not.
> i was giving an answer to the question.
> have you not had https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_172708/schlossgold-non-alcoholic-beer


SJW, I think you may be pushing the limits of HB and I applaud you. I used to drink alcohol free beer in Germany and found they had a much better selection than here and some of their beers tasted just like the standard brews you could get (exept without the alcohol). I found the two best ones were Claustaler alcoholfreies Pils (IMO the best of the alcohol free pale lager type) and Erdinger Alcoholfreies Weisbier, which IMO was as good if not better than their real thing. I didn't think you could get either here in Aus, until I saw the above link with Dan's supplying the Erdinger, so thanks Barls.


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## timmi9191 (3/5/16)

Erdinger Alcoholfreies Weisbier - has previously been sold at Aldi


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## CmdrRyekr (3/5/16)

wobbly said:


> It seems that the additional boiling to drive off alcohol and add bitterness (IBU) may not be a good way to go.
> 
> So would it be a solution to produce an unhopped wort-ferment-heat to say 80C to drive off the alcohol and then use "hop shots" to add IBU/flavour
> 
> Wobbly


There would need to be un-isomerised alpha acids in the beer to increase IBU, but that is unlikely to be the case. What has probably happened however is that the _perception of bitterness_ increases...


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/5/16)

It wont have the mouthfeel from alcohol, but just adjust your recipe and mash temp and you can give it a decent mouthfeel


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## Dan Pratt (3/5/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> It wont have the mouthfeel from alcohol, but just adjust your recipe and mash temp and you can give it a decent mouthfeel


Maybe 25% wheat and 10% carapils with any base malt mashed at 70c for 30mins could do the trick.


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## Whiteferret (3/5/16)

Why don't you freeze it out?


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## Blind Dog (3/5/16)

I realise a Nanny State type solution isn't what the OP asked, but hopefully a discussion of it is still on topic. Been reading the reviews and they're all roughly what you'd expect reading the recipe - lots of hop aroma not backed up the flavour, thin and watery body, overly bitter. But generally decent scores.

Personally, I think I'm drawn to a small batch inspired by their beer., but maltier and less bitter. Must admit I'd never given much thought to brewing a 0.5% beer before reading their recipe, despite numerous attempts to turn a 3ish% beer into a lower alcohol one


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## Jack of all biers (3/5/16)

timmi9191 said:


> Erdinger Alcoholfreies Weisbier - has previously been sold at Aldi


Except Aldi only arrived in Adelaide last year... And even then the current three stores are so far away, I couldn't be F'd driving all the way there to see something I used to treat as a convenience store in Germany.

Personally, I'm going to give the GYX recipe from Bronzed Brews a go and see what a 1920's Australian low alcohol beer turns out like (0.83%).


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## barls (3/5/16)

Jack of all biers said:


> SJW, I think you may be pushing the limits of HB and I applaud you. I used to drink alcohol free beer in Germany and found they had a much better selection than here and some of their beers tasted just like the standard brews you could get (exept without the alcohol). I found the two best ones were Claustaler alcoholfreies Pils (IMO the best of the alcohol free pale lager type) and Erdinger Alcoholfreies Weisbier, which IMO was as good if not better than their real thing. I didn't think you could get either here in Aus, until I saw the above link with Dan's supplying the Erdinger, so thanks Barls.


np. mate.


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## S.E (3/5/16)

barls said:


> does it matter if we sold it or not.
> i was giving an answer to the question.
> have you not had https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_172708/schlossgold-non-alcoholic-beer


Well yes it does matter if you sold it or not. Your post gave the impression you’re a pro brewer and know what you’re talking about.

The Schlossgold non alcoholic beer that you linked is not unfermented wort so I don’t know what point you are trying to make there.

Do you know of any non alcoholic beers that are produced by simply packaging unfermented wort? How are they packaged safely without the risk and danger of spontaneous fermentation? Not in glass bottles that’s for sure!!


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## MHB (3/5/16)

Yes they are, whole class called Malta, unfermented wort, filtered and carbonated and packaged in bottles and cans.
Very popular in Africa and the Caribbean. Some are pretty good, even found a Belgian made one at an African specialist shop here in Newcastle (not the best I have tried).
In tunnel pasteurisers we trust!
Mark


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## SJW (3/5/16)

I sent an e-mail to Coopers and asked the question regarding the process they use for making the Ultra Light. This was their response.

G'day Stephen,

We ferment Birell with a proprietary yeast that will only ferment monosaccharides (glucose or fructose) and can't ferment maltose, sucrose or any of the polysaccharides. Boiling fermented beer results in oxidation and other unwanted by-products so give it a go if you really want to but you'd need to get through the keg pretty quickly before it became undrinkable (sorry can't give you a timeframe on that). 

Cheers, Frank.

So like Mark said the 85 Deg C boil for an hour might be the best bet and do the flavour and aroma hop addition then....maybe


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## Jack of all biers (4/5/16)

When you do, maybe heat your kettle/vessel with a water jacket to gently bring the brew up to 85C. (ie your keg/pot containing your beer, being heated in a pot filled with water, which is heated by your heat source). The heat source direct approach will likely cause temps closer to boiling point near to the heat source, hence causing some of the oxidation/other off flavours Coopers were talking about.


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## MHB (4/5/16)

Jack the Braumeister is a bit of a special case.
The element in a Braumeister has such a low watt density that you can hold the element between your fingers until the water is too hot to have your hand in.
There are next to no surface heat effects to worry about, any other type of element I have seen yes you are right indirect heat would be a good idea.
One of the many things about the BM that is truly well designed.
Mark


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## S.E (4/5/16)

MHB said:


> Yes they are, whole class called Malta, unfermented wort, filtered and carbonated and packaged in bottles and cans.
> Very popular in Africa and the Caribbean. Some are pretty good, even found a Belgian made one at an African specialist shop here in Newcastle (not the best I have tried).
> In tunnel pasteurisers we trust!
> Mark


Well bugger me so there is. That the answer then just pasteurise the wort and it will be fine.


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## Ducatiboy stu (4/5/16)

S.E said:


> Well bugger me so there is. That the answer then just pasteurise the wort and it will be fine.


Yet another use for a plate chiller....


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## S.E (4/5/16)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Yet another use for a plate chiller....


How would you get the bottles through a plate chiller though? No chill in bottles perhaps?


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## MHB (4/5/16)

Google up Tunnel Pasteuriser basically a big heated conveyer oven that you run bottles/cans through, the product is heated, held hot long enough to kill bugs, then cooled.
Pretty standard equipment in any big brewery filling bottles or cans, up to 450 Pasteurisation Units (PU's) can be applied to beer in breweries with bad hygiene problems. A PU is 1 minute at 60oC, one sterilisation unit roughly enough to kill 90% of bacteria in a product in 1 minute
Here is a pretty good look at the process and the calculations Pasteurisation Units & Sterilisation Units.
Mark


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## rude (4/5/16)

Bitburger Drive 0% Alcohol 
do one as well had one by mistake once thought it was pretty good


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## lmccrone (4/5/16)

MHB said:


> Yes they are, whole class called Malta, unfermented wort, filtered and carbonated and packaged in bottles and cans.
> Very popular in Africa and the Caribbean. Some are pretty good, even found a Belgian made one at an African specialist shop here in Newcastle (not the best I have tried).
> In tunnel pasteurisers we trust!
> Mark


I foolishly brought an alcohol free can of guinness when i was in bali, it tasted just like un-fermented wort, bloody awful. Not sure thats a reflection on the style though because I tried one of their locally produced alcoholic guinness's and it too was just absolutely undrinkable. Not sure which was worse


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