# Hefeweizen recipe - thoughts?



## Reman (19/10/14)

Favourite of mine is Franziskaner, so I'm looking to do something similar and not necessarily a clone. Looking through other threads has given me some general ideas of grain and hops bill. Mashing is a little complicated to bring out the clovey flavours. Melanoiden is added to give a decoction flavour which appears to be common method for commercial wheat beers.

One possible change is to make the 10 min addition Perle instead for some more spiciness but not sure if it's worth it.

Any comments on ways to improve this before I hit up the HBS?

Batch Size: 11.69 l	
Style: Weizen/Weissbier (15A)
Boil Size: 14.98 l	
Style Guide: BJCP 2008
Color: 12.0 EBC	
Equipment: Pot 15l - BIAB to 10l
Bitterness: 15.0 IBUs	
Boil Time: 60 min
Est OG: 1.052 (12.7° P)	
Mash Profile: Wheat partial BIAB
Est FG: 1.017 SG (4.2° P)	
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage
ABV: 4.6%

1.20 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain
300.0 g Melanoiden Malt (39.4 EBC) Grain
1.20 kg Vienna Malt (6.9 EBC) Grain
14.4 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.0%] - Boil 60 min Hops
14.4 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.0%] - Boil 10 min Hops
1 pkgs Safbrew Wheat (DCL/Fermentis #WB-06) Yeast

0 min - Ferulic Rest (42.0 C for 20 min, 0 min rise)
Add 12.75 l of water at 44.4 C
20 min - Saccharification (63.0 C for 20 min, 10 min rise)
Heat to 63.0 C over 10 min
50 min - Mash Step (72.0 C for 20 min, 10 min rise)
Heat to 72.0 C over 10 min
1:20 hours - Mash Out (78.0 C for 10 min, 5 min rise)
Heat to 78.0 C over 5 min
1:35 hours - Mash Complete
Fly sparge with 4.94 l water at 78.0 C


----------



## Dan Pratt (19/10/14)

The mash profile seems on target. I ran 30mins for both the 63 and 73c rest and that went well. 

I haven't used vienna before, normally just pilsner malt with the wheat. 

That's alot of Melanoiden. Aim more for 2-5%. I used 2% on my last batch and that was plenty. 

The wb06 is a good yeast, just direct pitch it, oh and the hops....just 1 addition at 60mins to 12ibu will be fine. The beer is about the yeast and malt....not the hops, a 10min addition is not required.


----------



## Flash_DG (19/10/14)

I'd go a good Liquid yeast too for Hefe Wyeast 3068, 3638 or 3056.
Also drop the 10min hops.


----------



## hoppy2B (19/10/14)

WB-06 is very phenolic and won't taste anything like a German wheat beer. As per Flash's advice, Wyeast 3068 is probably your best bet. 3638 is a bit cider like in flavour and seems to match Munich dry yeast.


----------



## jyo (20/10/14)

While you're not going to get the same yeast profile as 3068, you can make a great weizen with WB06 at 17'. Mangrove Jack's Weizen is better than WB06 IMO.

Agree with definitely dropping the melanoiding back to 2%. It packs a big heavy malty punch and will throw everything right out of balance at 300 gms. You're using 50% Vienna, which will give you plenty of melanoidin flavours.


----------



## JDW81 (20/10/14)

Dare i suggest dropping the melanoiden all together and doing a decoction to raise your temps from 63 to 72?

I'd drop the 10 minute. Hefe (unless you're making an american wheat) is all about the grain and yeast, the hops are just there to balance everything out.

JD


----------



## Weizguy (20/10/14)

no protein rest? Have you been reading the thread about the validity of protein rests with modern malts.
I use a protein rest with my wheat beer mash schedule, despite some who tell me that it removes head from the resulting beer.

I recommend the W3638 yeast for this beer. Ferment about 20°C, and slightly underpitch. Not cidery, to my taste.

My 2 cents. Take it or leave it. Results based brewing.


----------



## manticle (20/10/14)

I remember yonks ago when I did my first Hefe (single decoction, with ferulic acid) getting advice from Zwickel not to use a protein rest for Weizen. I'll see if I can hunt it up and see if he explained why - wasn't malt modification or head retention and he did recommend PR for pils, etc.


----------



## manticle (20/10/14)

OK - so not sure if the advice was in a PM or a thread but Zwickel's mash schedule for weizens has been posted in various spots including here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/35414-step-mashing-for-wheat-beers/ Straight from ferulic to sacch.

And mention here of the absence of a P-rest ( http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/16221-step-mash-theory-a-technical-question/?p=220674 ), something I know he does/did for other beers.


----------



## Reman (20/10/14)

Thanks for all the valuable advice guys, it appears the general consensus appears to be

- Melanoiden has been dropped altogether, going below 100g didn't seem to make much sense so just got rid of it. Hopefully the Vienna should provide enough maltines and I'm not quite up to doing a decoction yet.
- Dropped the 10 min hops addition, but kept the IBUs at 15. From other hefe's I've had I'd much prefer to go a little higher in the bitterness than have it under.
- changed the yeast to 3638, although I was tempted by the description of 3068. Anyone else want to weigh in on this one?

I haven't added in a protein rest, but if this doesn't quite hit the spot then I might try it for the next one.

Last thing to mention, I'm bottling this at 3.0 Vols using previously used glass bottles. I've read that there can be issues with the bottles not being able to take the pressure. Is this level of carbing ok for used bottles? What if I just use the 500ml ones that used to hold Franziskaner, Schoehoffer, etc?

Once again thanks for the input!


----------



## Reman (20/10/14)

Actually something else regarding the yeast and reading warnings of over-pitching for wheat beers, should I only pitch half a pack of liquid for 10L, or would I normally need to do a build for 23L so should be fine as is for 10L?


----------



## Mr. No-Tip (20/10/14)

Reman said:


> Last thing to mention, I'm bottling this at 3.0 Vols using previously used glass bottles. I've read that there can be issues with the bottles not being able to take the pressure. Is this level of carbing ok for used bottles? What if I just use the 500ml ones that used to hold Franziskaner, Schoehoffer, etc?
> 
> Once again thanks for the input!


I spent a long time collecting as many champagne bottles as I could for hefs and Belgians. They'll quite happily take 3 carb drops without worry - something I wouldn't trust a thinner bottle to do. After some experimenting I found that too much carbonic ruins the subtlety of the hef, so I now just go 2 carb drops in 750 and it's perfectly spritzed.


----------



## Flash_DG (20/10/14)

AS Mr notip said I don't go above my normal ale carb profile of 2 sugar drops in a 500ml.
I've never done a protein rest in all the hefe's i have brewed. most were with a BIAB method so it was too much mucking about for me then and now in a 3V setup I don't have a way to do setups right now. 
15IBUs is a good point, I like 11 to 12 in mine.
Those german 500ml bottles can be a bit thin so be careful I have a mix of german and english 500ml bottles and the english ones are far thinker than the germans. 
My favourite commercial Hefe is the weihenstephaner Hefe Weisse Bier so I always went with 3068, though the next one I will try 3056 and then the 3638


----------



## hoppy2B (21/10/14)

Have you tried reculturing Franziskaner bottle yeast Reman? I've just recultured Weihenstephaner bottle dregs and am looking forward to using it in the next few days.

Some people think its lager yeast but its not. You wouldn't put lager yeast into a hefe because it would flock out, which is the exact opposite of what you want with a hefe.


----------



## manticle (21/10/14)

Why do they think it's lager yeast?


----------



## hoppy2B (21/10/14)

I don't know, urban myth?

There's been some speculation that Weihenstephaner yeast was dead or that it was a lager yeast used to bottle condition. Some of the German ales are said to use a lager yeast because they flock better.


----------



## Weizguy (21/10/14)

manticle said:


> Why do they think it's lager yeast?


Maybe it's because more Weizen breweries use lager yeast to package their bottled beer than the primary strain.

IIRC, Warner's book mentions beer stability. Perhaps that means that the weizen yeast would remove the weizen character quicker than the lager yeast.


----------



## hoppy2B (21/10/14)

I inverted a Schofferhofer a few times and put it in the fridge for a couple of hours and then drank it with more yeast in suspension than would have been the case if I hadn't inverted it. The result was that it had more of a clove flavour. The yeast is an important part of the flavour component.

The literature I saw said some German breweries use lager yeast to bottle condition ales, it didn't say hefe.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (21/10/14)

"The beers that most homebrewers are interested in collecting yeast from are Belgian beers and hefeweizen beers. German-made hefeweizen beers are typically filtered, and lager yeast is added back at bottling. This not only keeps a primary flavor component out of the beer and away from yeast-stealing competitors, but it improves the shelf life by preventing the continual development of phenol and clove character to the beer during storage." - Chris White (whitelabs) 2001

https://byo.com/stories/item/1333-round-it-up-collecting-yeast-from-bottles


----------



## hoppy2B (21/10/14)

Thanks for that Liam.

In other words, if one were attempting a clone it would be a good idea to ferment with Wy3068 and bottle condition using a recultured bottle sample.

My recultured Weihenstephaner bottle yeast does have the aroma of the original, its very fruity. I'll be interested to see how it goes in a batch. Might just do a small batch as a test.


----------



## Liam_snorkel (21/10/14)

yeah that article is pretty old so who knows whether some breweries have moved away from using a separate yeast since then


----------



## seamad (21/10/14)

Would be pretty easy to see whether or not it's a hefe yeast. Pitch some recultured yeast into a starter, krausen = hefe, no krausen = lager.


----------



## Weizguy (21/10/14)

seamad said:


> Would be pretty easy to see whether or not it's a hefe yeast. Pitch some recultured yeast into a starter, krausen = hefe, no krausen = lager.


That's pretty much a generalisation that's not always correct, as most lager yeasts throw a krausen at ale ferment temps, and some are even good for top cropping at lager ferment temp.

Good attempt. C+


----------



## Reman (6/11/14)

This has almost finished 2 weeks in the primary fermenter. Just tasted the sample used to check the SG and I'm really happy with the taste, very much reminiscent of Fransiskaner which was what I was aiming for. Will bulk prime and bottle this weekend and I'm looking forward to tasting the final product.

Brew day was interesting, my probe thermometer had decided it wasn't going to work so I was stuck with my infrared thermometer which can give some very fluctuating temps. So pointing it at the pot and going for a high average temperature seemed the best course for this 4-step mash profile. Considering the tasting after primary I think I must have done pretty well as it has that great balance of clove and banana. It also means going with Wyeast 3638 was a good choice (thanks Lez!).

I must have added a little too much extra water during the sparge as after the boil I ended up with about 12L into the fermenter instead of 11L, the OG was meant to be 1.050 but it ended up at 1.044. Unfortunately it makes it difficult to calc the efficiency but I think I might need to ask for a slightly finer crush next time.

It has been pretty warm here in Sydney and it mostly fermented at around 21 degrees. I can say now that fermenting at that temp hasn't unbalanced the flavours, so I wonder if the sweet spot for this yeast is a little wider than most people think?

Another suggestion to drop the extra hop additions and just do the 60 minutes additions was spot on and the bitterness levels at 15 IBUs is perfect.

I'll report back in a couple of weeks with some tasting notes once carbing is complete.


----------

