# Overgravity Brewing



## Bribie G (12/3/09)

My 20L no chill cube is a bit small to produce my 25 L brews (24 on bottling) I note that the 20L actually holds up to 22. If I'm going to do all the work for an AG brew I would prefer to get my full 24 L that I always got in my extract / partial / kits n bits brews.

OK I should get out the wallet and buy a 25L cube but haven't been able to get any from Bunnings and it seems a waste of a good 20L cube so I've been doing overgravity brews for my last couple and topping up in the fermenter with a couple of litres of good old water or half a bag of ice to get to pitching temp quicker. Also during the brew about half a litre would go in with a hop tea late addition and another half litre at Polyclar time.

Without doing extremely picky calculations I seem to be 'hitting the style' by nudging the ingredients - for example where I would use 4.5 kg grain I've upped it to 5, used a 30g hop addition instead of 25 and so on.

It's not really severe overgravity brewing like the commercials do but I'm interested to know if any other AHB members do this? I seem to be getting nice malty hoppy beers and no 'watered down' taste although I'm wondering if there's any way OG brewing alters hop flavour or aromas etc in the 'watered down' brew? (edit: as opposed to hitting the same gravity using the same ingredients in a 'normal' brewing process)

I also note that Fresh Wort kits seem to be brewed this way as they recommend adding some water.


----------



## RetsamHsam (12/3/09)

I will be doing this with a mild I brewed yesterday, thread here.. I managed to increase my efficiency by over 20% on a 45L batch.. So I will be diluting with 15L to get it down to the gravity I want.


----------



## Bribie G (12/3/09)

RetsamHsam said:


> I will be doing this with a mild I brewed yesterday, thread here.. I managed to increase my efficiency by over 20% on a 45L batch.. So I will be diluting with 15L to get it down to the gravity I want.


Yes some relevant comments on the other thread, especially about bittering - which should be ok as long as we intend from the start to dilute with water.


----------



## razz (12/3/09)

Been doing it for years BribieG. 40 lts into the kettle and 40 lts into the fermenter.


----------



## buttersd70 (12/3/09)

No problem michael, just do all your additions the same as you would for the larger batch size. If you enter the additional as top up water in Beersmith, you don't even need to work out any numbers, beersmith will do that for you.

btw if the cube is a willow, it will hold 24L....when it's sitting flat, and you fill to the point where it starts to overflow....thats 24L.


----------



## RetsamHsam (12/3/09)

Yeah you're right.. I had no intentions of diluting it at mash-in, however when I measured my pre-boil gravity and it was afew points higher than my anticipated SG I quickly threw in some extra hops, and made a last minute decision to add a large-ish flame out addition.. 

I am abit worried that it will turn out alittle thin/watery due to the low SG (1.037). 

Have you ever diluted with a low gravity beer? How did it turn out?


----------



## buttersd70 (12/3/09)

No probs at all...1037 is 1037, regardless of how it was achieved. That was your planned OG, and you mashed for that accordingly (I presume. ie 68-70C mash). Having a 1037 wort as a result of watering down your (unplanned for) high(er) gravity wort shouldn't make any difference.

edit: last time I did over grav, I diluted to 1036? from memory. Maybe 1038. Either way, it ended at 1012, same as my Milds normally do when brewed full scale.


----------



## Jakechan (12/3/09)

I thought it would be achieved easily in Beersmith by doing the following (although I havent tried it).

Eg.

For an existing recipe of 20 litres batch size, scale it up to 25l (this changes the grist amounts etc).
Then in the main recipe window re-enter 20l in the Batch Size box.

Thus you end up with the grist/hops etc scaled up for 25 litres, but will be brewing it at the desired concentrated level and end up with 20l.
And the 5 litres to be added in the fermenter takes you back to where you want to be.

Is this what Beersmithers do?

Cheers,
Jake


----------



## buttersd70 (12/3/09)

Jakechan said:


> I thought it would be achieved easily in Beersmith by doing the following (although I havent tried it).
> 
> Eg.
> 
> ...


If you go into equipment, you enter your recipe as if it was for the 25L...then you enter 5L in topup water, and it removes that from the boil volume. That way, it calculates your water requirements for 20L out of the kettle. 
Simple. No need to over think it.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (13/3/09)

buttersd70 said:


> No probs at all...1037 is 1037, regardless of how it was achieved. That was your planned OG, and you mashed for that accordingly (I presume. ie 68-70C mash). Having a 1037 wort as a result of watering down your (unplanned for) high(er) gravity wort shouldn't make any difference.
> 
> edit: last time I did over grav, I diluted to 1036? from memory. Maybe 1038. Either way, it ended at 1012, same as my Milds normally do when brewed full scale.




While its on topic, I would just like to give an upfront warning that the following post is stupidly geeky.... but I suspect people will find it interesting.

Ultra High Gravity brewing is a commercially accepted way of making "light" beers with flavour profiles that are closer tho those of "normal'" beers. Something happens to the levels of total flavour compounds in worts that are brewed and fermented at over 16 plato (about 1.064). basically the percentages graph gets steeper all of a sudden. This means that you can make a beer - dilute it by half and still get 2/3rds - 3/4s of the flavour compounds that would have been in a full strength beer. Here's a graph to illustrate - note, numbers not real... just for illustration of the concept OK





So you can see that a beer brewed at "normal" gravity with an OG of 9 plato (1.036ish) has significantly less flavour "stuff" than a beer of normal gravity (lets say 12.5 plato or 1.050) - BUT a beer brewed at 18plato and diluted to the same strength as the 9plato beer before packaging, has nearly as many flavour compounds as the "normal" beer does.

I can't for the life of me remember that actual numbers and I have exaggerated the steepness of the change to make it obvious - but its not _that _far out from what I remember was the real case. You could boost the TFC levels closer to the "normal" beer than to the low OG beer and win back more than half the flavour loss.

This was technique was once upon a time a Fosters trade secret - but everyone does it now. I'm wondering if there is a place for the technique in homebrewing?? Fosters doesn't really go above 18plato - efficiencies and other process realities start to make it not worth it... but it might be a way to make fantastic ordinary bitter or mild ale to have around in your keggerator.

Thirsty


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (13/3/09)

Hey Thirsty got a reference for the material, this type of question came up on an exam I had and I didnt know the answer.Actually there is not a lot of info on high gravity brewing around.Hope you find the reference.Like you said it is a trade secret.  
GB


----------



## Bribie G (13/3/09)

Yes CUB were the first brewery to bring out light beer in the early 80s, I remember Carlton 2.1 which was a very flavourful drop (we are talking true 'light' rather than mid... XXXX did the first mid but called theirs Lite which is confusing)




IIRC it was eventually 'replaced' by Fosters Light which to me wasn't as good.

Edit: ah and here's the one that came just before 2.1, wasn't too bad as well but it was the try out brand introduced about the same time as XXXX lite




I take it that whole segment is now only represented by Stirling? IMHO those earlier models were more drinkable.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (13/3/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Hey Thirsty got a reference for the material, this type of question came up on an exam I had and I didnt know the answer.Actually there is not a lot of info on high gravity brewing around.Hope you find the reference.Like you said it is a trade secret.
> GB




not really... I was in a class/training/junket session with Mick Jontef at work and he talked about it a little. Put up a graph pretty similar to the one I did and gave a verbal explanation. There were numbers... but I cant remember them. I left my book in the BDU and it might have had more, I will go and retrieve it when I go back to work on Monday an see if there is anything else.

From what I recall, the increase in flavour compounds above 16 isn't anything secret... it was a well known effect - it was only the utilisation of the effect in brewing low alcohol beers at Ultra High gravity that was a Fosters innovation. Like i said, no secret anymore. Common mega practice in Aus at least.

I think people have almost stopped talking separately about high gravity brewing (as opposed to ultra high) as if it were anything special. Nowadays its just so ubiquitous in large breweries that its simply "brewing" and it mainly gets a mention as a practice that allows better throughput volumes and tank utilization. Apart from that I think that the technical differences between brewing at 15 plato and brewing at 10.5 are considered to be so minimal that they dont rate a mention. The quality of the dilution water and how to exclude oxygen being far more important than the fact that the original beer was HG.

Bribie - maybe try the Carlton Light again. Its till out there unchanged after many a year. And it isn't brewed UHG - still an original first generation "light" and as a side snippet of info, an AG beer. No adjunct in Carlton Light.

I see if I can come across any more info on HG and UHG brewing for you Gryphon.

Thirsty


----------



## Mantis (13/3/09)

BribieG said:


> Yes CUB were the first brewery to bring out light beer in the early 80s, I remember Carlton 2.1 which was a very flavourful drop (we are talking true 'light' rather than mid... XXXX did the first mid but called theirs Lite which is confusing)
> 
> View attachment 25413
> 
> ...



I dont remember the 2.1 but drank a lot of carlton light, before switching to tooheys gold, then to hahn blue.
Thankfully, I then caught on here and started the path to better beers, and now the dark side
(Or maybe the slightly shaded side BIAB)


----------



## Bribie G (13/3/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Bribie - maybe try the Carlton Light again. Its till out there unchanged after many a year. And it isn't brewed UHG - still an original first generation "light" and as a side snippet of info, an AG beer. No adjunct in Carlton Light.
> 
> I see if I can come across any more info on HG and UHG brewing for you Gryphon.
> 
> Thirsty



Wow is it really..... that's mindblowing, since then I've brought up two boys to adulthood, voted for Bob Hawke (yup it's that long ago)... I might give Fosters Yatala a ring and see where I can get it and have a couple for old times sake. :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers:


----------



## dr K (13/3/09)

LA (Low Alc not Los Angeles) was originally not a product of CUB but of Tooths in NSW. Carlton bought Tooths out.
There was a law in place up to some time in the 70's, under as I remember the Pure Foods Act or similar that required a product called "Beer" to be of a minimum ABV, this was dropped and the light beer brigade came swarming. Swan had a <1% beer at one stage.
Carlton Light was certainly available in 1979, maybe early 1980 perhaps and was from my limited tasting agreeable.
XXXX Gold at around 3.5% was available in Qld in 1980.

K


----------



## Fat Bastard (3/3/15)

Thirsty Boy said:


> While its on topic, I would just like to give an upfront warning that the following post is stupidly geeky.... but I suspect people will find it interesting.
> 
> Ultra High Gravity brewing is a commercially accepted way of making "light" beers with flavour profiles that are closer tho those of "normal'" beers. Something happens to the levels of total flavour compounds in worts that are brewed and fermented at over 16 plato (about 1.064). basically the percentages graph gets steeper all of a sudden. This means that you can make a beer - dilute it by half and still get 2/3rds - 3/4s of the flavour compounds that would have been in a full strength beer. Here's a graph to illustrate - note, numbers not real... just for illustration of the concept OK
> 
> ...


So, digging up an old post here (as the fencing contractor said) but am I to take it that it is better to brew an over gravity beer and ferment it out before diluting back to a lower gravity?

I've got a cunning plan to make a high gravity Saison and dilute it back (either into the fermenter or into the keg) to get 2 Corny Kegs worth of 4.8% Saison. Obviously it would be better in terms of space to ferment one 25l fermenter's worth and dilute it back to 2 kegs than it is to use double the ferment space.

I'm not sure ive got a complete handle on the theoretical targets out of beersmith but I'm looking at an OG of 1.080 diluted back by half to 1.040. So a volume into the fermenter of 23.5l diluted back by the same amount of boiled and cooled water either pre or post ferentation.

Thoughts appreciated etc.

Cheers,

FB


----------



## mckenry (4/3/15)

Hey FB,
As thirstys post implies, diluting back in the kegs can retain more flavour compounds. There are other concerns about high gravity brewing such as hop utilisation. Not too much of a worry with a saison though.
Youll just have to pitch the correct amount of healthy yeast to chomp through 1.080. Again, not a big problem with saison yeasts.
Definitely worth it for space saving.
Its a common method for those that have size limiting vessels. Yeah, beersmith can handle it. Theres a field that asks for top up water post fermentation or something like that. This will adjust the hop utilisation for you.


----------



## technobabble66 (4/3/15)

Yeah, TB's earlier post is fascinating. 
There's some serious potential there for homebrewers. 
It seems like the real trick mentioned in TB's post, aside from efficiency losses, is to fully deoxygenate the diluting water. 
Not sure on the numbers involved but I'm assuming that'd involve a reasonable boil time. 
I wonder if you could pre-fill your kegs with the required (boiled) water and sit it under CO2 & flush out the gas space a few times over a few days? 
I guess it depends how deoxygenated the water that's been boiled for 30mins is, as to whether it's worth any extra steps.


----------



## verysupple (4/3/15)

In terms of flavour, I think it depends what you want. Do you want half of a high gravity flavour profile or do you want a normal/low gravity profile.

I brew slightly over gravity because my kettle isn't big enough. I usually end up with ~20 L post-boil and dilute it to 23 - 25 L in the FV. I prefer to dilute it in the FV rather than at pakaging because the top up water is aerated and I figure you want that at the start of fermentation, not at packaging.

If I was going to brew double strength as FB has planned then I'm not sure how I'd do it - I'd need to carefully consider all the factors. But I do know one thing, if I was diluting post-fermentation then I'd want to be very sure the top up water was deoxygenated...and I'm not sure how I could do that.


----------



## verysupple (4/3/15)

technobabble66 said:


> I wonder if you could pre-fill your kegs with the required (boiled) water and sit it under CO2 & flush out the gas space a few times over a few days?


I don't think that'd work. Putting more CO2 into solution doesn't change how much O2 is (or can be) in solution.

EDIT: I just realised you siad boiled water. That might work if boiling gets rid of all the oxygen and you thoroughly purge the kegs with CO2 first.


----------



## technobabble66 (4/3/15)

Yeah. True. Partial pressures and all that. 
Back to just boiling then I s'pose. 
Maybe another option could be to dilute it out while there's still a few points of gravity left to ferment out. That way if there's any oxygen still in the water, the yeast might scavenge it out. 
Of course that defeats the FV space saving element. 
For me that's no problem: I currently seem to end up with a combo of higher- than-expected OG plus extra boil off in a sub-sized system means I generally get 17-20L into the FV whereby I need to dilute back out to 25-27L to hit the intended OG. So I'm adding back 30-40% volume at pre-fermentation. Maybe I could just do that at the end - either just before or after FG is reached. 
OTOH, dropping from 30L FVs to 20L FVs means more FVs in the fridge! Though I'm not sure I brew enough to fill extra FVs...


----------



## technobabble66 (4/3/15)

verysupple said:


> I don't think that'd work. Putting more CO2 into solution doesn't change how much O2 is (or can be) in solution.
> 
> EDIT: I just realised you siad boiled water. That might work if boiling gets rid of all the oxygen and you thoroughly purge the kegs with CO2 first.


I think it might only make a difference in that you could put the hot boiled water straight into the keg and flush it w CO2 while it cools, then bring in the beer. 
So it prevent O2 getting back into the water as it cools (is this even an issue?) and probably makes handling easier in terms of reducing splashing etc (maybe?). 
Hopefully someone will chime in with the level of O2 in boiled water...


----------



## technobabble66 (4/3/15)

http://docs.engineeringtoolbox.com/documents/639/oxygen-solubility-water-2.png

Dissolved oxygen in water at 100*c is 0.0000g/L

The next question is how quickly does it dissolve back in?


----------



## technobabble66 (4/3/15)

technobabble66 said:


> http://docs.engineeringtoolbox.com/documents/639/oxygen-solubility-water-2.png
> 
> Dissolved oxygen in water at 100*c is 0.0000g/L
> 
> The next question is how quickly does it dissolve back in?


Edit: Added actual image




EDIT 2: this appears to be a bit inaccurate. Read below posts


----------



## technobabble66 (4/3/15)

Oh bugger. Further googling indicates O2 is not completely removed. 
Link to a scientific paper:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/003991409480110X?via=ihub
Unfortunately it's just the abstract, but it indicates bubbling with N2 (or Argon) flushes out O2 the best (0.2-0.4ppm), with boiling being the worst option. 
But without knowing the threshold of what makes a concerning level of O2 in brewing, it's hard to say if boiling is inadequate for our purpose or if it's good enough.


----------



## verysupple (4/3/15)

technobabble66 said:


> http://docs.engineeringtoolbox.com/documents/639/oxygen-solubility-water-2.png
> 
> Dissolved oxygen in water at 100*c is 0.0000g/L
> 
> The next question is how quickly does it dissolve back in?


I haven't got sources but it dissolves back in pretty quickly when exposed to the atmosphere. As you mentioned, putting it into the keg while boiling/very hot and fluching with CO2 would help. 




technobabble66 said:


> Oh bugger. Further googling indicates O2 is not completely removed.
> Link to a scientific paper:
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/003991409480110X?via=ihub
> Unfortunately it's just the abstract, but it indicates bubbling with N2 (or Argon) flushes out O2 the best (0.2-0.4ppm), with boiling being the worst option.
> But without knowing the threshold of what makes a concerning level of O2 in brewing, it's hard to say if boiling is inadequate for our purpose or if it's good enough.


I'm glad you found that because I wasn't convinced that boiling emilinated O2 completely.

I still think the easiest way to avoid oxidation is to let the yeast do the work for you. So I agree that adding water either when transferring the wort to the FV or at least before fermentation has finished is the best/easiest option.

Having said all that, as homebrewers we will always allow a bit of O2 in when packaging and it doesn't seem to be a problem (perhaps because there's still at least some yeast in suspension to scavenge it) - most of us would get at least a few months shelf life before noticeable oxidation sets in. So maybe we're just being a bit paranoid.


----------



## technobabble66 (4/3/15)

verysupple said:


> I haven't got sources but it dissolves back in pretty quickly when exposed to the atmosphere. As you mentioned, putting it into the keg while boiling/very hot and fluching with CO2 would help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah - it might be best to add the (post-boiled) water after (?) 75% of gravity points are consumed - that should roughy hit a point where there's still plenty of activity to ensure it's O2 is consumed, and probably equates to being after the first 3-4 days of fermentation where the majority of the flavours seem to be achieved.
Hell, you could even do it as part of a double drop, like those old codgers doing their true-to-style historic/classic UK beers.

And yes, there's a good chance that boiling and cooling is enough, and we're just being paranoid.


----------



## dblunn (4/3/15)

Hi FB, the significant factor pre/post fermentation top up is the dissolved oxygen in the water. Pre ferment it is a good thing but post ferment it is a bad thing so take care at removing it or your beer will go stale very quickly.
Dave

Oops, left this on my screen for a couple of hours before ready and replying. All been covered by others in the meantime.


----------



## Fat Bastard (4/3/15)

What if I boil and chill the water in a keg, then add the OG wort and carbonate in the keg with a spunding valve and some sugar/DME? D'y reckon that would scavenge enough oxygen? I don't mind a cloudy saison, it is to style after all!


----------



## Dunkelbrau (5/3/15)

If you keep the DO of the water low enough it will be around what most craft breweries use anyway. There is no beer with Zero PPB of O2. 

I'd boil water, and while hot bubble co2 through a stone to drive off the O2, making sure its from the bottom of the keg, but its a big waste of money for the time frame required to get the DO down that far.

People are forgetting that the rate of oxidation increases with temperature, keep your beer cold and the rate is lowered a lot. We will probably drink the entire keg before it starts showing signs of oxidation at those temps!


----------



## RdeVjun (5/3/15)

I would experiment at a smaller scale and lower dilution rate before stepping up to full cornies at 1:1.
I think most of the salient points have been covered above, there are elements of paranoia but OTOH it doesn't hurt to cover as many bases as possible. As related, the technique is in use amongst the commercial players, however I don't know if the push it to quite these extremes.
FWIW, my own experience with this technique was prior to development of MaxiBIAB when I was aiming for more than 12- 14L into packaging from Stovetop All- Grain in a 19L kettle, I tried it a few times on Thirsty's suggestion. It did indeed work and while the results were adequate they were fairly underwhelming compared to other the same non- post- ferment diluted beer particularly WRT to late hops character, so YMMV.
Cooling thoroughly boiled water in a closed cornie is a very sensible idea although bear in mind that as per No- Chilling in one, cooling contraction will suck in air as they are pressure vessels, not designed with partial vacuum in mind. Nevertheless I doubt that would be a biggie.
My 2c, hope this helps!


----------



## Fat Bastard (5/3/15)

Yeah, I was kind of worried about chilling in a closed vessel like a keg, but I reckon if I hook the C02 up to it, it should keep it pressurised enough to prevent a vacuum forming and hopefully prevent the O2 from being reabsorbed into the water.

I'm not looking to do award winning beers with this method, kust a nice enough beer to keep the masses happy. Not planning on doing big late additions or dry hopping or anything. It looks like there is some potential with the technique, so I think an experiment may be in order.


----------



## RdeVjun (6/3/15)

Yep FB, I suspect that hooking up CO2 to the hot water cornie should nut that issue beautifully. B)

It seems feasible and worth experimentation, I'd give it a whirl and see how it goes. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Fat Bastard (10/3/15)

All ready to brew the over gravity wort this weekend. Pretty sure I have my numbers sorted out for a lawnmower saison at the end. Thinking about the DO issues, I reckon that the boiled water couldn't possibly have more than wort, so I'm hoping carbing naturally in the keg with sugar should scavenge enough for it not to be a problem. It's not a beer designed to cellar anyway.

Will report back later.


----------



## Fat Bastard (22/3/15)

Quick update: the base saison has dropped from 1.078 to 1.015, giving around 8.3% ABV. I'm hoping it will drop some more to give me somewhere in the region of 9-9.5%, which it looks like it will. It tastes good too, no hot alcohol, and not too heavy on the esters.

I've boiled and kegged 18.5l of water, which I treated with calciums carbonate & sulfate to the same ratio as the base water. This was a bit of a stuff up here, as I did not take into account the expanded volume of the water. I had the keg on the scales and hot water started pissing out of the open relief valve! I dumped a little until the weight indicated I had 18.5kg (and presumably 18.5l) of water inside. I have this hooked up to the gas while it cools.

The next steps will be to split the keg into two, prime the beer with enough sugar for both and top the kegs off with the primed beer out of the fermenter. Then rack myself off to Tasmania for three weeks while they do their thing.

Looks like I won't have time to give it much of a cold crash, so I don't think I'll bother. Saison is meant to be hazy anyway!


----------



## Fat Bastard (25/4/15)

I tapped one of the kegs last night, and I'm quite impressed with how the saison has turned out. I've not measured the gravity, but I reckon it's around 4.5% ABV. Plenty of saison esters going on and very smashable. There's no evidence of hot alcohol or fusel flavours.

On the downside, head retention is only moderate and it seems to my palate that there is a bit of mouthfeel lacking.

I'll post some pics of the finished beer tonight, and measure the gravity. 

I think this method has great potential and will be doing another over gravity batch soon!


----------



## Fat Bastard (25/4/15)

it isn't that hazy in real life, honest!

I.m trying to think of ways to improve the mouthfeel and head retention... thinking some carapils and bumping the mash up to 68 from 67 as a first step.
It's certainly very drinkable, but has some room for improvment. I might leave the other keg for a while and see if oxidation rears it's ugly head. I have a feeling that it won't.

Measured the ABV at 4.7%. Pretty sure the other keg will be lower than this as I assumed they'd be identical in weight and they weren't, so one got a bit more water than the other. No big drama, and something to remember for next time.


----------



## verysupple (29/4/15)

Looks appetising, FB. :icon_cheers:

My favourite saison, Saison Dupont, is pretty hazy so I don't think that's a problem.

Good idea about keeping one keg for a while. You're could be taking one for the team a bit there. If it does stale quickly that's not great for you, but then we'll all know. On the other hand, if it's fine then win for you _and_ the rest of us will know the method works.


----------



## Fat Bastard (31/5/15)

Cracked the second keg tonight, and no sign of oxidisation. In fact, it's probably tasting better than the first one. Not planning to keep it too much longer, but I reckon it will last reasonably well.

Anyone else want to have a crack? I just brewed my second OG batch today, and I might try out an AAA in the not too distant future.


----------



## Fat Bastard (11/8/15)

Just cracked the first keg of the second batch of OG saison. Tastes perfect.and not at all watery. I've got a batch of 9.65% Imperial IPA crashing in the fridge at the mo' which will be the first attempt at an AAA double batch. It will be interesting to see how the hops respond to this method. I'm pretty impressed so far, and I'm slowly getting the process dialled in. I think there is more work to be done on the water correction for the dilution water, so I have got a hold of some 88% lactic acid to drop the pH slightly and will continue with the mineral additions as previously described. I'm going to abandon trying to carb in the keg, it's a pain, and I don't really think there's much oxygen left to scavenge after the boil. The second saison did not carb up naturally at all, even after being parked next to the heater for a month, so i can only assume that either the high alcohol of the OG ferment killed it off, or there wasn't enough oxygen for it to kick up again. Probably a bit of both.

I'm not sure the beers will win any awards, but for the first time since I bought my kegerator, I've had more full kegs than will fit into it, and I've had to buy another two to increase my capacity. It's also more than drinkable, and not nasty homebrew by any stretch of the imagination


----------



## TheWiggman (11/8/15)

Post #10 has me well intrigued. Have you brewed this recipe before FB? Do you think this brew has more 'flavour' for it's %ABV than a beer brewed using standard methods?


----------



## Fat Bastard (11/8/15)

Can't say that I've brewed a single batch of the same beer, but both recipes for the double have been scaled up versions of the standard brew. Standard being in the case of the Saison 6.5%abv and for the yet to be diluted Amber, 5.6%.

That post was the one that got me really thinking about the viability of the process. I suppose in the interests of the scientific method, i'll now have to brew single batches of the beers to prove the pint!*

Certainly on an anecdotal level, both batches of Saison do not taste like they've been watered down by 50%! One of the local breweries do a "small" saison which is around 3.5%, which tastes kind of insipid. I suspect it's brewed at that gravity and not diluted, but they were kind of cagey when quizzed about it, so who knows.

I honestly think the method has a lot of potential for homebrewing, I've still got some minor issues to solve around the process, but really it's only an extra step to boil some water the day before kegging and making sure the profiles match.

* This was a typo, but I think i'll just leave it alone.


----------



## Fat Bastard (28/8/15)

Ok, so sort of proving the pint...


Fat Bastard said:


> Cheers Martin!
> 
> Tasting the results for the first time (brought the water down from 7.16pH to 5.4pH with 1.1ml of 88% lactic in 25l...Couldn't taste it when I took a sample) and it's honestly the shit. I've done this particular recipe as a full volume brew many times and I've _never _had the hops popping quite like this. In fact, the hop aroma and taste are a bit much for the AAA style, I reckon i'll have to dial it back a tad for the next brew, although i'll wait to taste the second keg to see how a bit of age goes with it.
> 
> My "good" fermenter is tied up with a Saison/Brett blend for the next little while, so i reckon I'll re-brew this one immediately. I think I'm onto something here...


from this thread.

I've brewed the half strength recipe a few times before and I actually think it's somewhat improved from the original. I've changed the dilution ration from 50/50 to 60/40 (compared to the Saison recipes I've done previously), upped the mash temp from 68 to 70 and buggered around with the dilution water pH, but it tastes better than the normal verson. The aroma hops are really in-your-face good.

The second keg of this one is a 50/50 dilution, due in part to the fact that I didn't allow for the amount of free range dry hop pellets to sink out of the OG wort, so I didn't get the amount I hoped into the second keg. I'm going to re-brew it immediately based on what it tastes like out of the 60/40 first keg (5.6 ABV)


----------

