# perfect temp control with gas



## mb-squared (23/2/14)

I know that a lot of people are moving over to electric setups these days, and if money were not an issue, I would too. But for those of us on a budget, it is still possible to build a really nice home brewery with perfect temperature control and very high efficiencies -- Beersmith tells me that my brewhouse efficiency is consistently over 90%.

I have a pretty standard 3V system with two Chugger pumps: the water pump and the wort pump. During the mash, the water in the HLT is recirculated to maintain even temps throughout the pot; the hot wort is recirculated through 50' of 1/2" copper tubing, which sits in the HLT. Thus, this is a standard HERMS system where the mash temp is controlled via the temperature of the HLT. All sorts of different temp steps and ramps are possible with this system and because the wort constantly recirculates through the grain bed during the entire mash, the wort is very clear going into the boil kettle.

The heart of my brewery is a BCS-460. It simultaneously controls all the temps on my brew rig as well as my fermenters. I will write about how to wire that up in the future if there is interest, but today I thought I'd talk about another key component: the gas valve. I use a Honeywell VR8200A2132. These things are built to run gas furnaces in home/office heating systems across the world (but are not widely used in Australia) and, from what I can tell, are just about bullet proof. Critically, the valve won't open and let gas flow to your burner if the pilot light has gone out. This feature is absolutely critical if you brew outside with the occasional gust of wind, like I do, and you want to live to taste the beer you're brewing.

This is what the valve looks like. You'll see that, not surprisingly, gas comes in one side and goes out the other. The wires supply the 24V AC power (coming from a transformer that I have sitting in the control box). The aluminium tubing supplies gas to the pilot light; the copper wire connects the thermocouple to the valve.





From this angle, you'll see that the gas comes into a 'T' connection so that any sediment that might be in the gas can fall to the bottom of the sediment trap as opposed to entering the valve.




Here you can see how the valve is connected to the burner. Note my cheap-as wind break for the burner.




Here you can see how I've attached the pilot light to the burner -- a 4-ring job from a vendor at the local weekend markets. I drilled and tapped the cast iron burner to fit a SS machine screw. I coated the screw in some J-B weld (high-temp epoxy) when I assembled it. But when I put this all together, some fifty-odd brews ago, I thought for sure that this was the weakest link in the system. So far so good though.




From this angle, you can see both the pilot light and the thermocouple. The pilot light gets the thermocouple red-hot. If the pilot light ever blows out, the thermocouple cools off almost immediately and then the valve won't open.




Because the pilot light is bolted to the burner, I've had to restrain the burner from moving around too much during the bumpy ride to and from the carport, which is where I brew. I've achieved this by bolting these small right-angle tabs to both the legs of the burner and the table.




Here's the HLT, with the HERMS coil sticking its head out.




And here's the control panel -- a $10 toolbox from Bunnings. The only thing to note here today is the "auto - off - manual" switch for the gas valve. Again, I will describe the BCS-460 and other goodies that live in the toolbox some other day.


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## woodwormm (23/2/14)

wow, impressive setup,i'd love to see more detail. 

care to share where the valve is sourced? and cost?


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## thedragon (23/2/14)

Sorry, I don't have an answer to your question, just wanted to go on the record as saying that you have a nice looking setup.


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## mb-squared (23/2/14)

Thanks for the kind words. I got the valve here: 

http://www.pexsupply.com/Honeywell-VR8200A2132-1-2-24-Vac-Standing-Pilot-Gas-Valve-11588000-p

pretty reasonable in my mind. I have family in the states and so I had it sent to them and they then sent it on to me.

Cheers,


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## woodwormm (23/2/14)

looks like a good price. postage may be a killer for most of us though... do you run it on lpg?


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## mb-squared (23/2/14)

yes, I just borrow the gas bottle from the BBQ on brew days.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (23/2/14)

I had a similar gas set up that I used a few years back, the problem being that you have to constantly stir the mash to stop scorching when heat is on.
Never looked back when we designed the Herm-IT, no more gas fumes or scorching or stirring. 
Nev


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## mb-squared (23/2/14)

Can't scorch water. The only thing being heated directly in my system is the water in the HLT. The mash tun is heated indirectly via the HEX that sits in the HLT. No stirring, no scorching, really high efficiencies. You are probably thinking of the Brutus 10 system.


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## Dan Pratt (23/2/14)

Brewhouse efficiency over 90%....hmmm ok that's pretty good. Do you mind sharing just a couple of details of your last brew? 

Kgs of malt used, Vol into FV and the Starting Gravity of the wort? I'm being devils advocate and find it hars to accept that a valve is the key peice of equipment to a high Brewhouse efficiency.....just jealous I only get 70%


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## mb-squared (23/2/14)

Hi Pratty1, I'm a scientist and I love a good sceptic. The gas valve is obviously just one small part of the brewery. I just thought it was a good place to start and, like I said, if there's interest then I'll post some more about the rest of the system. But the efficiency comes from recirculating the mash (pump runs wide open for 90 minutes), a 90 minute fly-sparge and a fierce boil. More than happy to scrounge up some numbers for you when I get a chance, but have a look at kal's brew day. He claims efficiencies in the high 90s -- Beersmith tells me I've only achieved low 90s. But, my brew day is almost identical to his because my system is almost identical to his -- except I use gas and he uses electric. And I use a BCS-460 to control everything and he uses a separate PID for each component.

Like I said at the beginning of my post, if money weren't an issue, I'd go electric and build a Kal clone like some of the others around here have done -- and who I'm very jealous of. But my system, put together with pots and burners from the weekend markets, along with parts from Jaycar and a toolbox from Bunnings, stacks up against the Kal clones very well -- in efficiencies, at least. Definitely not shiny, beautiful blingy-ness.


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## ekul (24/2/14)

Hi MB, i have been investigating setting up something similar to this for my 100L biab rig. I'm in canada at the moment so if i buy the parts here i will save a lot on shipping. If i buy the Honeywell VR8200A2132 in the link is that the only piece of equipment that i need ie does it come with the thermocouple? And could i control it using one of the hermit brewry controllers? http://gryphonbrewing.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=78&products_id=512

I have a 140L pot which i currently use to make 69-100L biab batches in but it would be really nice to maintain temps more accurately. I like the idea of not running a heat exchange system on it so that i can brew even when the power is out.

Cheers for the info, your system looks great.


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## mb-squared (24/2/14)

Hi ekul, you will need to make sure you get all the bits and pieces for the valve. You'll need the lpg conversion: 
http://www.pexsupply.com/Honeywell-393691-Natural-Gas-To-LP-Conversion-Kit-for-SV9500-SV9501-SV9502-VR8200-VR8300

You'll need the thermocouple:
http://www.pexsupply.com/Honeywell-Q390A1061-36-Thermocouple-1753000-p

You'll need the pilot:
http://www.pexsupply.com/Honeywell-Q314A4586-Honeywell-Q314A4586-Pilot-Burner-4113000-p

The fittings to connect the valve to the pilot:
http://www.pexsupply.com/Robertshaw-11-293-1-4-x-5-Pilot-Burner-Tubing-w-Fittings

And because the valve runs on 24V AC, you'll probably need a transformer. I went with this one because I knew it would be compatible:
http://www.pexsupply.com/Honeywell-AT175A1008-Foot-mounted-120-208-240-Vac-Transformer-w-9-in-Lead-Wires-75VA-11016000-p

All totalled up, you're looking at around $115 for everything.

But, this valve won't work if the power goes out. The pilot will stay lit, but an electric solenoid opens/closes the valve.

As for controlling it, if you have a hermit controller already, then maybe that would work. I'm not familiar with it, but it looks like it is set up to control a 240V circuit, whereas in this case you'll want to be controlling a 24V circuit. If you don't already have a hermit controller, and you are currently in N. America, then I'd go with this:

http://www.ebrewsupply.com/shop/controllers/bcs-controllers/bcs-460-temperature-controller.html

along with a couple of these:
http://www.ebrewsupply.com/shop/internal-hardware/relays/40a-ssr.html

and a couple of these:
http://www.ebrewsupply.com/4-bcs-temperature-probe.html

for around $250 you'll be controlling your brew rig as well as your fermenters and kegerators.


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## mb-squared (24/2/14)

Pratty1 said:


> Brewhouse efficiency over 90%....hmmm ok that's pretty good. Do you mind sharing just a couple of details of your last brew?
> 
> Kgs of malt used, Vol into FV and the Starting Gravity of the wort? I'm being devils advocate and find it hars to accept that a valve is the key peice of equipment to a high Brewhouse efficiency.....just jealous I only get 70%


Hi Pratty1, fired up Beersmith this morning to get those numbers for you. My last brew was a Cascade Amber Ale. 10kg of grain. pre-boil volume of 61L @ 1.046SG for a mash efficiency of 93.3%. After the boil, I had 52L into the fermenter @ 1.053SG. Beersmith tells me that equates to a brewhouse efficiency of 91.6%

To be honest, I used to really pay attention to these things, but now it's not uncommon for me to forget to pull out my refractometer. The one thing I am quite obsessive about, though, is the PH. Due to the extended fly-sparge that I do, I'm careful to make sure that the PH of my mash tun is always in the mid 5s.


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## Dan Pratt (24/2/14)

Hi MB,

Thankyou for the response, sorry it was slightly off topic, but when assessing the system you have the technical side of me wanted to run the numbers first, im sure you understand. Still im left wodering why my 20lt BM is only getting a 70% BHE, I will have to figure our what im losing that 20% too on the system.

Great to here you focues on the pH, my LHBS guy is avid about getting pH right for the mash, have you found that your efficieny % increased since you started getting acuurate pH levels for trhe mash and sparge?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (24/2/14)

mb-squared said:


> Can't scorch water. The only thing being heated directly in my system is the water in the HLT. The mash tun is heated indirectly via the HEX that sits in the HLT. No stirring, no scorching, really high efficiencies. You are probably thinking of the Brutus 10 system.


My bad, inattention to detail . :unsure:
Nev


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## mb-squared (2/3/14)

For those who may be interested, I have posted a follow up to this thread over in the all-grain forum.

Cheers,

matto


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## stretch69 (5/3/14)

Pex don't ship to Australia, does anyone know of any other suppliers for us?


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## mb-squared (5/3/14)

Yeah, that is a bit of a pain. But you can get that same valve from other sources, like here:
http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-VR8200A2132-International-Valve/dp/B00ECV2W90

Or you can order a bunch of stuff from several different places and have these guys (and there are others too) ship everything to you:
http://www.shipito.com/?id_affiliate=2044


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## stretch69 (6/3/14)

Thanks for the quick reply! ,
I was surprised at how little info there is about people going down the e-herms route with gas.
Is this pilot assembly okay? 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003CW0D1E/ref=pd_aw_cart_recs_1?pi=SL500_SS115


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## mb-squared (6/3/14)

stretch69 said:


> Thanks for the quick reply! ,
> I was surprised at how little info there is about people going down the e-herms route with gas.
> Is this pilot assembly okay?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003CW0D1E/ref=pd_aw_cart_recs_1?pi=SL500_SS115



Yes, it is surprising at how little detailed info there is. But if you troll the web enough, you'll see that a lot of people have done it, they just haven't bothered to let the rest of us know _how _they did it. I am so happy with my system that I hope to roll out the details of how I put it together and how I use it over the next few months. As for the exact parts you need, please see the links in this post (which is above):
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78566-perfect-temp-control-with-gas/#entry1143624

If you take the part numbers from each bit there and match them up against what you find on different sites (like Amazon), then you'll be fine.

Cheers,

matto


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## HBHB (6/3/14)

mb-squared said:


> Can't scorch water.


You obviously never met my ex-wife.

h34r:
M


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## mb-squared (6/3/14)

lol, hilarious!


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## stretch69 (6/3/14)

mb-squared said:


> Yes, it is surprising at how little detailed info there is. But if you troll the web enough, you'll see that a lot of people have done it, they just haven't bothered to let the rest of us know _how _they did it. I am so happy with my system that I hope to roll out the details of how I put it together and how I use it over the next few months. As for the exact parts you need, please see the links in this post (which is above):
> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78566-perfect-temp-control-with-gas/#entry1143624
> 
> If you take the part numbers from each bit there and match them up against what you find on different sites (like Amazon), then you'll be fine.
> ...


Thanks again mate, 

I'd def be interested your write up, particularly with your control box. I've seen heaps of people using pid's but I'd love to see how you use a Web based controller and how it's wired up etc


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## mb-squared (18/3/14)

stretch69 said:


> Thanks again mate,
> 
> I'd def be interested your write up, particularly with your control box. I've seen heaps of people using pid's but I'd love to see how you use a Web based controller and how it's wired up etc


I have now written a follow-up to this post over here, where I describe how I wired up the gas valve with the BCS. Hopefully it is helpful.


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## nathan_madness (25/3/14)

If you ever need anything from the US and they don't ship to Australia you can always use ReShip (google it). I've used them a couple of times and they are fast and not that expensive.


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## brewtrekker (21/7/14)

Love this build mate. I am building something very similar. You wouldnt happen to have any schematics up on the wiring for you system ? Just fyi I am building a single tier herms sys using 75 liter SS Stout tanks I drug in from the states. Like you because of cost and location of my brewery I have to go gas even though all my tanks have ports built in for elements. I really want to go with a bcs 460, but may go all manual till I work up the cash for a fully auto sys. Do you have electric fluid valves as well ? Anyhow I may have to pay you for design rights as I may be copying your entire Brew Rig !


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## mb-squared (21/7/14)

Hi Brewtrekker, I have written about how to wire up the gas valve with the BCS in this post. I do not use electric valves, just plain old manual ones. Best of luck and feel free to pester with questions if needed.

Cheers,


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## brewtrekker (7/8/14)

Hey MB -squared
I am leaning more and more towards gas now since rewiring my house for a 32a plug for electric brewing is a crazy expensive add on to an expensive brewery build. One question how much did you spend on your gas valves ssr and transformers all up. Plus why didnt you go with the BCS-462 vs the 460 ?


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## mb-squared (7/8/14)

Hi brewtrekker, looking back through this thread it appears (see post #12) that I said you could get all the critical bits and pieces for ~$250, but I'm not sure anymore. I provided a bunch of links there, but don't know if they are all still live.

As for going with the BCS-460 over the 462, can't remember. Probably cost  I'm a cheapskate extraordinaire! As it is, the 460 controls my brewrig as well as my 2 fermenters, so not sure I'd need the extra ports available on the 462. But if I did want more, I'd probably go with 2 460s so that I could have one dedicated to my brewrig and then one dedicated to my non-rig needs. 

rambling on a bit, but hopefully it is helpful?


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## brewtrekker (7/8/14)

So just so I know how does the 460 run the fermentors are they in a brew fridge ? With heat pads as well. Yep Im with you on the el cheapo rig as much as the e-brew people say its cheaper its only so after you spend big dosh on a 3 phase power or 32 amp plug. At least with gas you can brew anywhere you have ventilation and a gas bottle.


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## mb-squared (7/8/14)

I have 2 chest freezers (with heaters in them) that I have my fermenters in. The BCS-460 runs those and my brew-rig (when in use) simultaneously. The screenshot in this post shows that: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/79002-controlling-a-honeywell-gas-valve-with-bcs-460/#entry1152199

Cheers,


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## brewtrekker (7/8/14)

Cool rig looks good


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## mrsupraboy (27/1/15)

Ive read up on a few of these gas controlled temps.

Is there one that controls flow depending on demand for example 1 to 12v.

Also is the Honeywell ones the best.


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## mb-squared (25/4/15)

Just wanted to let people know that I now have all the gas control components of this system up for sale. I'm asking $225 for everything:

2 4-ring burners with high pressure regulators
Honeywell valve with 24V transformer
Pilot light with lpg conversion
all the hoses needed as well as the sediment trap
A 24V pilot light and SSR
I could also include the toolbox "control panel" if you'd like.

Basically everything you need (minus the kettles) to get up and running.

pick up only in Sydney's Northwest.

Cheers,

matto


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## mb-squared (17/5/15)

Just giving this a bump. I had someone who said he'd take it so the whole kit is packed in bubble wrap and sealed up in a box and ready to ship. The burners (see here) by themselves cost more than I'm asking for the whole thing and I'll even pay the first $50 in shipping fees. Just want to make sure it ends up in the hands of a brewer at this point.

Cheers,




mb-squared said:


> Just wanted to let people know that I now have all the gas control components of this system up for sale. I'm asking $225 for everything:
> 
> 2 4-ring burners with high pressure regulators
> Honeywell valve with 24V transformer
> ...


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## NattyJ (1/8/21)

Appreciate you sharing and would be very interested in seeing a write up with lessons learned/things you'd do differently etc. Also a massive thanks for your amazing willingness to answer everyone's questions and sharing your clearl great knowledge in this area.


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## MHB (1/8/21)

Mate you will have to get into the habit of checking post dates and if you don’t recognise a poster look at their profile. In this case the original post is from 7 years ago, the poster hasn’t been seen for the last 4 years so; odds on you won’t be getting an answer from him anytime soon.

You might be stuck with doing a bit of research for yourself; there are a few good combustion equipment suppliers around who might be able to help.
If you do find anyone or some really good equipment, it might be worth starting a new thread or tagging onto this one with what you learn.
Mark


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## NattyJ (2/8/21)

Ooops. Good advice. Not sure how I missed that! Cheers.


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## MHB (2/8/21)

Not sure about an electrically controlled regulator/valve but I have found these guys helpful and reasonably priced for industrial gas gear.
Auscrown
Mark


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## AleByI (30/6/22)

Kudo's Matto,
It's great to see someone else's experience in building a gas-fired home brewery with great temperature control that results in excellent efficiency. For those using gas, there are some very helpful tips here. That BCS-460 and Honeywell valve sounds like the ticket to first class.

After doing close to 50 batches on a 3-tier Blichmann gas system I could never really dial in the numbers as well as you. So much heat was lost from the stainless steel 15 gal pots as well as residual heat from the burners. Then I had the nasty side effects of drafts. There were also times when I had to deal with the dreaded yellow flames which blackened pots and burners. I know there are workarounds for all this and if I still had gas I would take much of your advice. I'm looking to build a new system from the ground up so for me the choice of gas or electric will be easier.


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