# Two Can Screamer



## fergi (18/10/08)

i want to put another kit brew on tomorrow but lhbs is not open,i was figuring on going to the supermarket and buying two home brand cans ,all i have then is cluster hops, POR, and liquid liquorice.also coopers pale ale yeast that i had from under the lid of a coopers can. i want a quick brew to throw into a keg in a couple of weeks.i know i should wait until next week to get something descent but im thinking two cans of home brand draught then adding some of the hops that i have available,by the way,the hops have been in the fridge,butter compartment for at least 18 months,always wrapped in their little plastic bags but i would imagine have lost a bit,they are both ...cluster usa pellets,6/8 % and the POR 9% THINKING with the two cans it will be a lot more hop flavored than just one can and a can of malt,any ideas on a recipe here.
cheers
fergi


----------



## buttersd70 (18/10/08)

2 cans will certainly be more bitter, but more flavourful from a hop perspective? don't really know about that.
If it were me, I'd go with a single, tin of coopers PA, 1kg malt (or a tin of lme if have it), POR 15min and dry hop with cluster.


----------



## Bribie G (19/10/08)

I can absolutely swear by a plain twocan of Coopers original series lager and by all means put in some finishing hops, but no bittering required.
It comes out around the same bitterness as VB - the lager is the lowest IBU in their original range according to the website. I've made three of them and the last one prompted a buddy to zoom round to his LHBS and take up brewing himself.

It will certainly be a screamer, just use one kit yeast because every one I have done has blown through the airlock. It also tastes great when young.

I often think that this particular recipe highlights what Coopers could produce as a 3.5k kit if they had a mind to. However more profit in K&K and enhancer type brews I suppose.

Hope you get this before you head for the supermarket!


----------



## The Big Burper (19/10/08)

BribieG said:


> I can absolutely swear by a plain twocan of Coopers original series lager and by all means put in some finishing hops, but no bittering required.
> It comes out around the same bitterness as VB - the lager is the lowest IBU in their original range according to the website. I've made three of them and the last one prompted a buddy to zoom round to his LHBS and take up brewing himself.
> 
> It will certainly be a screamer, just use one kit yeast because every one I have done has blown through the airlock. It also tastes great when young.
> ...




BG,

Do you use any adjuncts, dextrose etc., or just 2 cans and the yeast?

ta

Dave


----------



## buttersd70 (19/10/08)

Thinking about it in the light of a sober day....

My issue with toucan brews is that they are too bitter for my tastes, and sometimes I forget that this is _my _taste.  

Bribie has mentioned the original lager before, and if I _were _to do a toucan, that would be the one I would choose. But having said that, the coopers PA is actually slightly less bitter than the lager (at least according to coopers), so a toucan coopers PA would probably be a goer as well, with no bittering, just finishing hops. (as would the cerveza and the euro lager, but personally I'm not overly keen on those two however they're done.)

Either way, for those interested in the numbers, a toucan to 23L with no adjuncts would give 1045 OG, _predicted _fg based on 70-75%attenuation of 1013, abv of 4.32% + bottling (aprox 0.5%).
(Obviously, fg and abv are estimates, and will vary depending on yeast and additional adjuncts, et al.)


----------



## The Big Burper (19/10/08)

Thanks for those figures butters. That calculated abv is a bit low for me, and as I keg
(no priming sugar), I will have to add some dex to up it to around 5.5 - 6.

All I gotta do now is wait till we get another $9.60 a can special at the local IGA.

cheers

Dave


----------



## Bribie G (19/10/08)

Dave: yes, just as is from the LHBS and only use one of the yeasts or some Nottingham if I've got a spare bottle in the fridge from an ale brew. Haven't got one left at the moment or I'd drop one round to chez vous - I'll pm you when I do one next and we could do a taste test if you are interested (basically I will be doing them right through the summer for my 'lager' brews with the odd partial inbetween times)

Butters: I must admit I've never taken a SG reading but based on Cooper's info on their BE2 pack (not all of which is fermentable) a kit plus a kilo of BE2 at 23 litres should - according to the Coopers Gods - produce a brew of 4.6 abv. Translating this to the toucan which is like a kit plus about 1.3 kg of adjunct (a convoluted way of saying an extra kit with the water theoretically removed) I was always under the impression that a plain toucan would come out at nearer to or a bit above 5%??

The lager toucan gives a commercial megaswill bitterness IMHO but little aroma.


----------



## buttersd70 (19/10/08)

No worries. Actually, wanting a higher ABV (which isn't my thing at all) gives you a little bit of flexibility....If the bitterness of the toucan is right (for your tastes), up the fermentables using dex. If the bitterness is too much for your tastes, up the fermentables using ldm, which will help balance the additional bitterness.

If the bitterness level of a toucan is too low, you can use a higher bitterness tin for one (or both), or do a hop boil. Either way, you then make up the fermentable with either dex or malt, the choice then coming down to how much body you want at the end.

The only time that you really run into issues with toucans are if you are like me, and want a fairly low bitterness _and _a low ABV. You can have one or the other, but not both. (at least not easily :lol: )


----------



## buttersd70 (19/10/08)

BribieG said:


> Butters: I must admit I've never taken a SG reading but based on Cooper's info on their BE2 pack (not all of which is fermentable) a kit plus a kilo of BE2 at 23 litres should - according to the Coopers Gods - produce a brew of 4.6 abv. Translating this to the toucan which is like a kit plus about 1.3 kg of adjunct (a convoluted way of saying an extra kit with the water theoretically removed) I was always under the impression that a plain toucan would come out at nearer to or a bit above 5%??



Never believe everything you read.  
I'm fairly sure you've got my spreadsheet, if not I'll repost it. But, lets work on 75% apparant attenuation of yeast for the final figures. The OG's of course are unrelated to yeast, and purely relate to fermentables added (which for dry ingredients will vary slightly depending on what it is, but not much more than a point either way at a kilo). Lets look at some differences. ABV is post-primary, pre bottling.

1.7kg liquid malt, and any 1kg of dry adjunct, irrespective of if it is dex, maltodextrine or ldm, will give OG of 1.039 in 23L, ie 2.36kg extract weight.
for 100% dex, then fg would be 1.007 with ABV of 4.25%
for 100% ldm, then fg would be 1.010 with ABV of 3.88%
for BE2, then fg would be 1.012 with ABV of 3.65% (with BE2 being 250g ldm, 250g maltodextrin, and 500g dextrose).

Changing to liquid malts, in 1.7 kg tins, toucan would give extract weight of 1.36x2, ie 2.72Kg. In 23L this would give OG 1045, with fg 1.011 and abv of 4.47%. (the figure in my previous post used an average of 70-75% Atten. This one uses 75%.)

For an extract brew, 2x1.5kg tins, this would give an extract weight of 2.4kg, OG of 1.040, and a fg of 1.010 and abv of 3.94%....add a 250g crystal steep to this, and it would push the OG and fg up by about a point or 2...starting to get into familiar teritory here......

Some brewing software will give figures higher than this (beersmith, for one.) But other software gives the same results as what I get (eg brewsta). One thing I do know, I always, always, even to this day, take an OG. and when I did my sheet up, I went back through my logs,crunched the numbers, and compared it to the empirical data. And it all matched within a couple of points, over the course of about 20 brews in the log. (I gave up logging every last detail at this point, as my next 20 or so brews were pretty much unchanged, then I went to AG, which is obviously a different kettle of fish)


----------



## fergi (19/10/08)

buttersd,i think your calculations are probably spot on,i just finished doing the two can screamer and og came out at 1050.i had to use coles brand lager as they were out of coopers so i just thought i would try it,dont really know why i am wasting my time ,i guess now that ive got a keg system i want some quick backup.anyway two cans went in to the fermenter,with 21 litres water, i used a pkt of coopers pale ale yeast with it,the thing that i did wrong was i put 30 grms of cluster hops into a cup then filled it up with boiling water,let it sit for 15 minutes then tossed it into the brew.now im not sure wether that will make it really hoppy but when i did the og i tasted it and it was like razor blades slashing my tongue,thinking about it im not sure wether it was the stuff on the bottom that may have been a bit stronger,what do you think about the hops,have i killed this batch off
cheers 
fergi


----------



## buttersd70 (19/10/08)

don't worry about the hops adding additional bitterness, a sitting steep for 15 minutes will add flavour but very little bitterness. Don't be overly concerned about the bitterness of the unfermented wort, it's not surprising at all. And yes, 2 cans in 21L works out to exactly 1.050


----------



## Bribie G (19/10/08)

buttersd70 said:


> 2 cans in 21L works out to exactly 1.050



Grew my beer gland in the UK getting totally plastered on five or six pints of Newcastle Exhibition, Clubs Federation Special, Vaux Samson Ale or (Cardiff) Brain's Special Ale, all at around 1.042. Sounds good to me :lol:


----------



## Jimbo9 (20/10/08)

BribieG said:


> I can absolutely swear by a plain twocan of Coopers original series lager and by all means put in some finishing hops, but no bittering required.
> It comes out around the same bitterness as VB - the lager is the lowest IBU in their original range according to the website. I've made three of them and the last one prompted a buddy to zoom round to his LHBS and take up brewing himself.
> 
> It will certainly be a screamer, just use one kit yeast because every one I have done has blown through the airlock. It also tastes great when young.
> ...




Hi there

I've been reading about your passion for this twocan and it inspired me to try it, although I did add 250g of Maltodextrin to hopefully give it better head retention. I can see why you advise to use just one yeast!. Without a fridge I had to brew it at 20-22C (mid september melbourne) which is higher than I'd of liked but better than I can get now.

I'm going to taste it after a month - really looking forward to it!

thanks Jim


----------



## mikeintmba (20/10/08)

Bribie you have convinced me to try this toucan as well. My previous toucan was a toothys lager which was yuck. I swore off toucans but your resolve has convinced me to try this one.


----------



## Sully (20/10/08)

I have a toucan of Mogans Golden Saaz Pilsner @ 23L fermenting atm. OG was 1.050

Did this a few years back as a single can made to 11.5L with no adjuncts and it's quite tasty. 

Always looking for toucan ideas... have to try yours Bribie.

Cheers

Sully


----------



## Bribie G (20/10/08)

Go for it. Next time I happen on some Coopers original series on special I'll do two or even three fermenters in parallel and that should top up my 'lager' style brews well into the new year. I live a 50K round trip from KMart and Big W at Morayfield so find it difficult to keep my finger on the pulse. I sometimes hear on the forum about 8 or 9 buck deals, would be sweet if I can fluke one of those and do a bulk buy :icon_cheers:


----------



## Sully (20/10/08)

BribieG said:


> Go for it. Next time I happen on some Coopers original series on special I'll do two or even three fermenters in parallel and that should top up my 'lager' style brews well into the new year. I live a 50K round trip from KMart and Big W at Morayfield so find it difficult to keep my finger on the pulse. I sometimes hear on the forum about 8 or 9 buck deals, would be sweet if I can fluke one of those and do a bulk buy :icon_cheers:



I am just around the corner in Narangba and go to the Morayfield Shopping Centre a few times a week, so I will keep an eye out for specials and let you know.

Cheers

Sully.


----------



## Bribie G (20/10/08)

Thanks Sully, don't put yourself out unnecessarily but I would appreciate any heads-up





:lol: :lol:


----------



## DKS (21/10/08)

Recently I did a Coopers sparkling Ale to 12 litres came out bitter as.Tried for quick quaffer into freinds keg. No good.
To those who want to have a go at a toucan take Bribies advive and dont go any more bitter than the lager with coopers kits. At $30 + or - for cans a bad result can linger. :icon_drool2: 
I have since found better results adding 1.5kg of liquid pale malt then dry hop if wanted. 
Just my 2 cents :icon_cheers: 
Daz


----------



## Bribie G (21/10/08)

Good idea, my very first brew in June when I got back into home brewing after a fifteen year absence, was a Morgans Pilsener plus a 1.5 can of liquid malt extract plus a saaz teabag. I had one archive bottle left which I cracked two weeks ago and my tasting panel reckoned it was the best beer I have ever made.

It's sort of a toucan. The basic problem with toucans is that if they contain a lot of iso hop extract to give bitterness then a toucan doubles the bitterness so there are basically two strategies:

1. use a low IBU kit which is why I get great results with Coopers Lager
2. accept that it is going to be very bitter, so balance it out with heaps and heaps of extra malt extract / do a mini mash etc.

My toucan Coopers Stout is bloody lovely but to balance it out I had to use a kilo of LDME and 750 of dex, which did the job despite the fact that the stout is , IIRC, the highest IBU in the Coopers original range. It's also a killer that needs to be drunk out of very small glasses


----------



## The Big Burper (23/10/08)

BribieG said:


> Dave: yes, just as is from the LHBS and only use one of the yeasts or some Nottingham if I've got a spare bottle in the fridge from an ale brew. Haven't got one left at the moment or I'd drop one round to chez vous - I'll pm you when I do one next and we could do a taste test if you are interested (basically I will be doing them right through the summer for my 'lager' brews with the odd partial inbetween times)




BG,

In the next week or 2 , I will be decanting (from the keg) Davo's Special Bitter, in the fine style of a Watney's Red Barrel (just joking).

If it tastes any good, I'll invite you round for a coldie or two. It is a Coopers Bitter kit,
with some special additions.

cheers
Dave


----------



## Bribie G (23/10/08)

Dave, sounds brilliant. The Mrs can drop me off - she hates beer and has a scotch and dry once a year whether she needs one or not so she won't be participating. Seeing as it's local I'll bring round a bottle (i.e. a 2L PET) of my toucan stout 8 or 9 percent (feels more like 9 percent) and then we'll see what toucans are all about  Cheers, Michael


----------



## jarryd (25/10/08)

BribieG said:


> I can absolutely swear by a plain twocan of Coopers original series lager and by all means put in some finishing hops, but no bittering required.
> It comes out around the same bitterness as VB - the lager is the lowest IBU in their original range according to the website. I've made three of them and the last one prompted a buddy to zoom round to his LHBS and take up brewing himself.
> 
> It will certainly be a screamer, just use one kit yeast because every one I have done has blown through the airlock. It also tastes great when young.
> ...


Iv'e only recently started doing toucans, i put down two cans of coopers lager yesterday, am looking forward to seeing how it come's out.
I also picked up two cans of Coopers Draught, how do you think this will turn out
2xCoopers Draught
300gm honey


----------



## buttersd70 (25/10/08)

jarryd said:


> Iv'e only recently started doing toucans, i put down two cans of coopers lager yesterday, am looking forward to seeing how it come's out.
> I also picked up two cans of Coopers Draught, how do you think this will turn out
> 2xCoopers Draught
> 300gm honey


Fairly bitter imho, but the honey will help cut that back a little. If you like bitter beer, it should be OK, but it _might _need a little extra time in the bottle to melllow a little, imo.


----------



## jarryd (25/10/08)

buttersd70 said:


> Fairly bitter imho, but the honey will help cut that back a little. If you like bitter beer, it should be OK, but it _might _need a little extra time in the bottle to melllow a little, imo.


Cheer's for the reply  
Iv'e got a lot to drink through so by the time i get round to trying a bottle i think that it should have well and truly mellowed out!


----------



## davidsmith (25/10/08)

Hey Bribie,
As i Love stout I'm going to give your twocan coopers stout a go
cheers dave-Bob


----------



## fergi (25/10/08)

i have made up as mentioned in the original post a two can of coles lager, plus steeped 30 grms of cluster hops in boiling water for about 10 mins,it has all but finished fermenting out but as i suspected it is a bit bitter,any ideas how i can take some of the bitterness out before i put this brew into a keg. i am thinking a kilo of honey or dry malt into the fermenter and let the yeast go to work on the fermentables again,maybe then adding a touch more sweetnes to the finished brew, and toning down the bitterness
cheers
fergi


----------



## buttersd70 (25/10/08)

fergi said:


> i have made up as mentioned in the original post a two can of coles lager, plus steeped 30 grms of cluster hops in boiling water for about 10 mins,it has all but finished fermenting out but as i suspected it is a bit bitter,any ideas how i can take some of the bitterness out before i put this brew into a keg. i am thinking a kilo of honey or dry malt into the fermenter and let the yeast go to work on the fermentables again,maybe then adding a touch more sweetnes to the finished brew, and toning down the bitterness
> cheers
> fergi



If I had a choice between the two, I would go for the malt. As you said, it would then ferment again, but should leave a bit more residual sweetness. Or, there are a couple of other options.

Option 1 is to add lactose. Lactose is unfermentable and sweet, so this would immediately cut the bitterness down. Usually in beer, it is added before fermentation, but for cider, lactose is quite often added at the end of fermentation, so that you can tell how much to add to balance it. It is about 1/3 as sweet as normal sugar, from memory. So you would just boil it in some water (or some of the beer) for 10 mins, cool it slightly, add it to the bottom of the keg and rack onto it. probably 250g? If you try half a teaspoon in a 200ml sample, it should give you a rough idea if 250g would be right.

Option 2 is to blend the beer. If you have some of a prior batch handy that is a little too sweet, you could try mixing the two. Again, you could do it in sample size, and just scale it up. Blending can give you great results if it's done right. I have one at the moment that is a little lacking in body and flavour, and 5% stout added to it seems to be the magic number. So when I keg it, it will get about 950ml of stout into the keg with it.


----------



## davidsmith (25/10/08)

Hi Butters,
for the twocan of coopers stout are you saying add 200mg-250mg of lactose to balance out the bitterness- sweetness ratio?


----------



## buttersd70 (25/10/08)

Dave-bob said:


> Hi Butters,
> for the twocan of coopers stout are you saying add 200mg-250mg of lactose to balance out the bitterness- sweetness ratio?



Umm, I was actually referring more to fergis specific problem with excessive bitterness. Bribie's recipe had extra ldm in it to start with, and he said in hes earlier post that it was enough in his opinion. But as it all comes down to a matter of taste, you could add some lactose to a stout. I personally find normal stout too bitter for my tastes, even if done as a single tin, or commercial. But thats a personal thing. You could definately add some lactose to a stout kit. You've maybe heard of 'milk stout'....Milk stout doesn't have milk in it, it has lactose, which is also known as milk sugar (the main sugar component in milk is lactose). Be aware that lactose will not only add sweetness, it will add a hell of a lot of body as well.  Personally, stout made with lactose is the only stout I will drink on its own (without blending), but as said, it all comes down to personal taste and preference.


----------



## seemax (25/10/08)

My most recent twocan was Coopers Lager ($9 special) and Homebrand Draught ($8 special). I did a quick boil/soak of Fuggles leftovers and fermented with Nottingham yeast for about 2 weeks @ 18C.

I was warned about drinking it young and it was true. At 2 weeks it was carbed nicely but just plain horrible. Now at 10 weeks its turned into a good beer, really good in fact. The Lager cans are approx 20IBU so with a 23L batch it's probably closer to 40IBU overall, but the malt manages to keep it balanced. It compares to VB in bitterness.

For a cheap, all malt brew the twocan option is hard to beat.


----------



## Bribie G (25/10/08)

seemax said:


> ...It compares to VB in bitterness.
> 
> For a cheap, all malt brew the twocan option is hard to beat.



That's the impression I get with a toucan Coopers Lager, there is a background bitterness at the back of the tongue that, as you say, is very reminiscent of brews such as VB. I think that is maybe because Fosters main-swill beers don't use hops in the kettle but add hop extract on the way to the packaging dept. If, like you did, you add extra flavour and aroma hops - fuggles being grassy and earthy and supplementing that background bitterness, you actually end up with something that a regular VB drinker would probably pay extra dollars for if you sold it over the bar :icon_cheers:


----------



## fergi (26/10/08)

fergi said:


> buttersd,i think your calculations are probably spot on,i just finished doing the two can screamer and og came out at 1050.i had to use coles brand lager as they were out of coopers so i just thought i would try it,dont really know why i am wasting my time ,i guess now that ive got a keg system i want some quick backup.anyway two cans went in to the fermenter,with 21 litres water, i used a pkt of coopers pale ale yeast with it,the thing that i did wrong was i put 30 grms of cluster hops into a cup then filled it up with boiling water,let it sit for 15 minutes then tossed it into the brew.now im not sure wether that will make it really hoppy but when i did the og i tasted it and it was like razor blades slashing my tongue,thinking about it im not sure wether it was the stuff on the bottom that may have been a bit stronger,what do you think about the hops,have i killed this batch off
> cheers
> fergi


 
well its sunday lunchtime and i was taking another fg reading on my two can brew,its been on 1012 for about 3 days so i reckon its finished,tasted the wort and initial taste was that it was surprisingly good,now half an hour after i can taste the slight burning of the lips and pallet,so i think it is slightly over the top with the hop addition,so i have boiled 1 litre water added 400 gms of ldme and will cool this down and throw into the fermenter,now this may or may not start the fermentation process but i am thinking it will add a bit more sweetness to the brew and maybe tone down the hop flavour. 
cheers
fergi


----------



## buttersd70 (26/10/08)

fergi said:


> so i have boiled 1 litre water added 400 gms of ldme and will cool this down and throw into the fermenter,now this may or may not start the fermentation process but i am thinking it will add a bit more sweetness to the brew and maybe tone down the hop flavour.



If it was OK out of primary,this should be enough then. Just give it another couple of days at fermenting temps, then check the fg again 2 days in a row to make sure its done. Will probably now end somewhere in the 1014 ish area, give or take.


----------



## fergi (26/10/08)

buttersd70 said:


> If it was OK out of primary,this should be enough then. Just give it another couple of days at fermenting temps, then check the fg again 2 days in a row to make sure its done. Will probably now end somewhere in the 1014 ish area, give or take.




ok so ive added the 400 grms xtra ldme to the wort,within 5 minutes it is going berserk, from a finished ferment this thing is bubbling about40 /50 times a [email protected] deg. wondering if i should add a further 2 litres of water to it to further soften the hop bite,started with 21 litres in original recipe,added another 1 litre with xtra malt,what do you think about the added water. OG was 1050.fg 1012.now as you said this will now finnish a bit higher with the malt addition
cheers
fergi


----------



## buttersd70 (26/10/08)

six of one, half a dozen of the other, at the moment I think. an extra litre isn't going to make much of a difference to the bitterness, so I'd just leave it alone now, and let it do it's thing.

It's good that it's going off like it is, that will help counteract any possible ill effects from late addition into the fermenter. From what you're saying, it'll probably be done by tommorow pm. Just make sure the hydro is steady again before bottling. Any toucan will take a bit of time to smooth out in the bottle. As long as it isn't undrinkable going into the bottle, it should settle down to a nice drop given time.


----------



## fergi (26/10/08)

buttersd70 said:


> six of one, half a dozen of the other, at the moment I think. an extra litre isn't going to make much of a difference to the bitterness, so I'd just leave it alone now, and let it do it's thing.
> 
> It's good that it's going off like it is, that will help counteract any possible ill effects from late addition into the fermenter. From what you're saying, it'll probably be done by tommorow pm. Just make sure the hydro is steady again before bottling. Any toucan will take a bit of time to smooth out in the bottle. As long as it isn't undrinkable going into the bottle, it should settle down to a nice drop given time.



thanks butters, this is going into a keg eventually,thats why this ended up a bit of a mismatch.i needed to get another quick brew on the way and it was a sunday so no lhbs available only coles,probably put in a cube for a couple of weeks b4 its needed in the keg. but if it turns out too crappy ill use it as a line flusher
cheers
fergi


----------



## buttersd70 (26/10/08)

If its going in a keg, it won't need as long to smooth out as it would in a bottle....2 weeks in a cube, and then 2 in a keg, and it should be sweet.

And if its not the best, think about it before ditching......if you can spare the keg, you can always use it as a mixer for something that could do with a bit more flavour.


----------

