# Thermomix For An Ag Brew - Any Takers?



## buckerooni (15/8/12)

a thermomix is a 2L jug that can be temp controlled (increments of 10c up to 100c) with a set of blades that also work as stirers. 

I'm thinking it could be used for mashing as it keeps temp and stirs at the same time. It can also turn wheat into flour so it might also be able to mill grain.

I'm a noob DME (no kits) + hop brewer at the moment but thinking this could be an experiment.

by overall approach was:
1. mash in batches
2. add batch to boil using colander/bag setup over boil pot (a 20L pot on stove)
3. sparge directly into boil
3. commence hopping
4. continue to add wort/sparge to boil
5. finish off hopping and normal process from here

would this work?

Before I get too crazy, here's some questions 

q1. any issue mashing at 70c (themomix only does 10c increments i.e. 60c/70c/80c etc)
q2. being a 2L jug, what kind of water/grain ratios could I run? How many 2L batches of 2L for reasonable efficiency (this might be the downfall if there's too many)
q3. how long for each 2L batch (keep in mind the constant stirring action to get a decent efficiency with a 2L jug)?

enough for now, any advice/opinions welcomed!

It's probably more of a pain the BIAB but I'd like to see if I can make something manly with the thermomix...


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## Wolfy (16/8/12)

To me it sounds sounds small, tedious, painful and not accurate enough to do a really good job anyway.

Q1/ Yes, a most single infusion mashes call for a temperature between 60 and 70 as neither of those temperatures are ideal.
Mashing at 70C will quickly denature beta amylase, leaving only alpha amylase and hence less maltose and more unfermentable sugars and full body beer.
Mashing at 60C will greatly favour beta amylase but is low for alpha amylase so you'd expect the total mash time would increase significantly.
However, a step mash, with a rest at 60C then 70C would work very well, the time at each step would control the fermentability of the wort, however it will take about twice as long for the mash process.

Q2/ The grain will retain about 1.5L/kg, and for a 20L pot you're probably looking at a batch size about 10L with 16L pre-boil.
A typical water/grain ratio is between 2.5 and 5, and for average mash+sparge (75%) efficiency you'd be looking at about 2kg of grain.
However without sparging, the water ratio roughly doubles and you'd expect a lower efficiency (closer to 50%) needing closer to 2.5-3kg of grain.
To get 16L pre-boil, you'll need about 10 to 12 2L batches of wort from the jug.

Q3/ Generally 60mins is considered a fair 'minimum' for mash/sparge, so that's about 10-12 hours of effort before you even start the boil. Even if you mashed more quickly than is 'ideal', say around 45 or 30min duration, its still a stupidly long time to produce such a small amount of wort.


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## Bizier (16/8/12)

While I applaud your resourcefulness, I agree with Wolfy. Might be good for a partial, but really nothing you could not already achieve with a saucepan and thermometer.


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## WSC (16/8/12)

I think a Thermomix costs over $2k too.


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## buckerooni (16/8/12)

thanks fellas, well, you've all layed that one to bed!

the missus as bought one anyway, for 2K I would have been happy to chip in and extra 500 and get a Braumeister but for some reason that was out of the question :huh:


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## dicko (16/8/12)

:icon_offtopic:



buckerooni said:


> thanks fellas, well, you've all layed that one to bed!
> 
> the missus as bought one anyway, for 2K I would have been happy to chip in and extra 500 and get a Braumeister but for some reason that was out of the question



Slightly :icon_offtopic:

I just googled thermomix and imo the BM would have been much better value :lol: 

Make sure it is your turn next  

Cheers


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## killspice (16/8/12)

I went to a demo a few weeks back and thought the same thing, but it is just too small for mashing. Out does look like it will mill grains well though, if only for biab (as I imagine it will be too hard to do a coarse grind).


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## buckerooni (19/8/12)

just arrived today, I'll be doing my first BIAB next week, will send through some pics of the milling, although reading the manual (when you've just dropped big coin on a singe device you _do_ read the manual!) it advises no more than 250g of grain at a time, but it should only take 5 secs or so per batch hopefully.


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## RobB (19/8/12)

My wife has made flour in her Thermomix but it wasn't so much milling as obliterating. This machine has some serious grunt and will turn anything to powder if you give it long enough (normally only a few seconds). The flour was also quite warm due to the massive burst of mechanical energy which had just been tipped into it, so she reverted to her much slower stone mill to preserve more nutrients. The same probably applies to your precious enzymes.

It is a cool machine, though. It's like having an extra set of hands in the kitchen.


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## Wimmig (19/8/12)

2k! Christ they have that sealed up nicely under the MRRP system. Mucho functions though.


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## Fish13 (20/8/12)

yeah outlaws have one and best to crack the grains on low and in reverse. If my wife wanted one its bye bye kitchen aid and hello braumiester


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## manticle (20/8/12)

Wolfy said:


> However, a step mash, with a rest at 60C then 70C would work very well, the time at each step would control the fermentability of the wort, however it will take about twice as long for the mash process.



I agree with everything else but not this bit. You can break a 60 min rest up into beta and alpha amylase and get great results.

I do it all the time but check out Hochkurz mashing if you haven't already - doesn't need to be twice as long as single infusion. In a single infusion you are trying to find a compromise hitting both sets. Hochkurz or my regular step mashing regime targets both, separately and specifically.


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## Wolfy (20/8/12)

manticle said:


> I agree with everything else but not this bit. You can break a 60 min rest up into beta and alpha amylase and get great results.
> 
> I do it all the time but check out Hochkurz mashing if you haven't already - doesn't need to be twice as long as single infusion. In a single infusion you are trying to find a compromise hitting both sets. Hochkurz or my regular step mashing regime targets both, separately and specifically.


According to the Hochkurz mash information (and diagram) on Braukaiser, 30mins is the suggested 'starting point' for the maltose rest, and 45-60mins is suggested for the dextrinization rest.
For higher fermentability the maltose rest should be held longer, and an intermediate step considered, in addition, to improve head retention and mouthfeel the 70C rest should be held for about 1 hour.

As a result, I'd contend that my claim of "_about twice as long_" is within the bounds of _acceptable exageration_ given the blatent unsuitability for mashing in this device, which was the point I was trying to make.


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## manticle (20/8/12)

_Up to_ 45 minutes.

The graph suggests 1 hour total maltose + dextrin (before mash-out) so there. Us brewers and our hair splitting. I'm thinning enough on top that I really shouldn't.

My rests are 60-70 minutes long with 10-15 at low 60s and the remainder in high 60s.

No, I would not mash in a 2L2K device either. I also wouldn't pay 2k for 2L


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## xa_jg66 (27/8/12)

We have one and ive poured over the idea aswell, but the amount of effort involved for such a small batch makes it not worthwhile. I have ground a small amount of grain in it though on a couple of occasions which it does with absolute ease.


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## buckerooni (27/8/12)

xa_jg66 said:


> We have one and ive poured over the idea as well, but the amount of effort involved for such a small batch makes it not worthwhile. I have ground a small amount of grain in it though on a couple of occasions which it does with absolute ease.



good to hear, I'm hoping I can do 500g at a time without too much trouble and without vaporising it!

on a side note, this thing as a kitchen tool is pretty amazing. Unsure if the novelty will wear off but we're cooking alot more - everything from curries to cakes. I still really enjoy cooking but struggle with time and sometimes good 'ol motivation and sure - if you've just dropped 2K on something and you're not using it you should have a good hard look at yourself!


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## Captain Morgan (21/9/13)

buckerooni said:


> good to hear, I'm hoping I can do 500g at a time without too much trouble and without vaporising it!
> 
> on a side note, this thing as a kitchen tool is pretty amazing. Unsure if the novelty will wear off but we're cooking alot more - everything from curries to cakes. I still really enjoy cooking but struggle with time and sometimes good 'ol motivation and sure - if you've just dropped 2K on something and you're not using it you should have a good hard look at yourself!


We've had one for over a year too and we use it for absolutely everything. Its a great appliance


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## Barge (4/10/13)

This is why I love AHB! I'm getting (as I do all of the cooking) a thermomix next week so I thought I would google "thermomix beer" to see what I could find. This thread was the first hit. Go Aussie brewers, true pioneers!


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## SergeMarx (7/10/13)

this! http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Thermoline-30L-800W-Hot-Water-Bath-Sous-Vide-/131009293497?pt=AU_Business_Industrial_Restaurant_Catering_Equipment&hash=item1e80c32cb9#ht_409wt_1399


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## kevo (9/3/15)

Reviving an old thread...

What about using one of these for decoctions...?

Any thoughts?


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## Kumamoto_Ken (9/3/15)

http://youtu.be/4yr_etbfZtQ


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## Engibeer (20/12/15)

kevo said:


> Reviving an old thread...
> 
> What about using one of these for decoctions...?
> 
> Any thoughts?


My wife and I recently purchased one and I'm seriously thinking about using it for a decoction mash!


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## kevo (20/12/15)

Can be done - on a very small batch just to see if it could be done...

Did great things for the attenuation of the beer, not sure if it helped the flavour to any great/noticeable degree. 

Have used for mini mashes too that then get added to extract - the temp control allows for some basic step mashing and the whisk thing keeps the mash moving for as long as you need it to. 

Worth having a go at anyway. 

Kev


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