# Wakkatoo's Brew Shed



## wakkatoo (15/3/09)

Well, contracts for my new house got signed today :super: . Building should commence in the next few weeks.

Part of the deal I made with the wife was to allow her to decorate the interior of the house however she see's fit in return for me getting a dedicated area for me to brew. It was a good deal as we have similar tastes and I've been p!ssing her off anyway with having all the brewing gear either in the laundry / linen cupboard / lounge room / walk-in-robe.

I've put more detail in my gallery but here is a pic of the shed and brewery floor plan. 



Shed is approx 10.5m x 7.m with each bay being 3.5m x 7m. It was originally going to be another 3.5m long but when measured out, was too big and would have dominated over the house. 

This is pretty close to final design but I do still have a few weeks to alter it if I need to. Hence why I've started this thread - I'd like input from the AHB community on any suggestions they have to make this shed better than it is (the fact I'm getting what I wanted is simply awesome in itself! :lol: ) 

So, I'm looking for suggestions on brew shed designs - any tips or tricks, or things to be careful of?

I'll keep posting pics as things develop. It might be a few weeks to the next pic as construction is due to start sometime in April on the house, not sure when on the shed.

Cheers

Wakkatoo B)


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## flattop (15/3/09)

I would want running water, hot and cold if i could get it. Benches at the right height along one wall and shelves along the other, insulated walls and ceiling and possibly a small aircon if it gets hot (most sheds do).


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## schooey (15/3/09)

If you haven't poured the slab yet, I'd seriously consider sloping the floor in the bay for the brewery towards a common drain point, or a long drain right down the centre. And starting with brand new concrete for a brewery gives you the perfect opportunity to go to someone like Parbury and get a food friendly surface coating to apply over the top that will help immensely with cleanliness...

Full time aircon to pressurise the brewery and prevent dust, a corner coolroom and insulation and lining and a few other things would be on my dreaming list....


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## bconnery (15/3/09)

I don't know what you do at home / for a living but if it was me I'd consider swapping the two sides  

That aside, I find a sink big enough to wash out all the bits of the brewery, including my pot I find very useful...
Perhaps an extrator fan above your boil?
Mains gas for your burners? (unless you are electric of course)
Drainage somewhere near the brewery...

Power points. That sounds obvious but the people who built the garage in my house didn't see fit to put any in...


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## wakkatoo (15/3/09)

flattop said:


> I would want running water, hot and cold if i could get it. Benches at the right height along one wall and shelves along the other, insulated walls and ceiling and possibly a small aircon if it gets hot (most sheds do).



Yep, running water will be there. F-I-L is an industrial plumber originally and now runs a small house construction business (can you guess whose building our house?). The walls and roof are going to be insulated. Benches will be more than likely courtesy of Gray's Auctions.




schooey said:


> If you haven't poured the slab yet, I'd seriously consider sloping the floor in the bay for the brewery towards a common drain point, or a long drain right down the centre. And starting with brand new concrete for a brewery gives you the perfect opportunity to go to someone like Parbury and get a food friendly surface coating to apply over the top that will help immensely with cleanliness...
> 
> Full time aircon to pressurise the brewery and prevent dust, a corner coolroom and insulation and lining and a few other things would be on my dreaming list....



Hadn't thought about sloping the slab. Like the idea of the drain down the middle, I can see the face of the concreter now :lol: . Dunno about the full time aircon, not sure the wallet will stretch that far. The coolroom is definately something down the track, not sure if I have the room tho.



bconnery said:


> I don't know what you do at home / for a living but if it was me I'd consider swapping the two sides
> 
> That aside, I find a sink big enough to wash out all the bits of the brewery, including my pot I find very useful...
> Perhaps an extrator fan above your boil?
> ...



Can't swap the sides around, just got too much stuff needing storage in a decent shed area. Don't think I'd get away with it either. A big sink is a good idea, will keep an eye on Grays.
I do have the option of mains gas, and have asked for it to be included if the budget allows (bit of give and take with what goes in the house). I'm of the same opinion with power points, you just can't have enough of them.

Water is a big issue where we are building so I'm going no-chill until the tank is installed then I'll chill with a closed system returning the water back to the tank. Any other water 'wasted' will be gravity fed off to the garden.

Some great ideas. Not sure all will be used, but its got the ol' grey matter ticking over!

Keep them coming..


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## Doogiechap (15/3/09)

+1 for the slope to the drain.
Get at least a 20 amp circuit to the shed. More is better even if you do run gas you will appreciate it 
Sink a decent separate conduit between the house and shed to run Cat 5, Cat 6, hell in the future Cat 7, speaker wires for the garden music system etc. If you don't have it there you will kick your self (I regret my lack of foresight).
Whirlygig or extraction fan in the roof. Your boil evap will come dripping back down on you 
Lots of light !!
Have fun :super: .


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## Sully (15/3/09)

Half your luck wakkatoo :beerbang: 

My suggestion FWIW would be divide your 'brewery' area into 3 zones - wet/dry/controlled. 

Seperate the zones using a half height walls (900mm high), which can also double as a shelf and stubbie rest, but also easier to contain spills in the unfortunate event. 

Wet zone for mashing, boiling & cleaning. Install a janitors sink (same size as a l'dry tub but lower to the ground so you dont have to lift a full pot of liquid to bench height, and the tap is mounted at bench height so there is enough clearance to get pots underneath) and taps that can take hose fittings. Floor waste would be an advantage to hose down spills. Either tile or spray-on coating on the floor but tile up the wall about 200mm (like in the loo). As this area is the brewing area keep it relatively clear of fixtures etc. 

Dry zone for preperation and storage. Plenty of cup'd and bench space. The cavity between head height (about 2.1m) and the roof can be utilised as overhead storage also. Keep an eye on demo yards as they sometimes have 2nd hand kitchens come up from time to time, or check the local rag.

The controlled zone for fermenting depends on what extent you are going to for a controlled environment. If using fridges leave in open area as they need ventilation. If 'makeshift' coldroom have it fully enclosed from the other zones and insulate the seperating wall and install AC to this zone only. Or you maybe lucky enough to have a proper coldroom built.

A ceiling fan or wall mounted industrial fan is cheaper to run and install than AirCon, so install those in the working zones. 

Line the wet zone with villaboard (wet area fibre cement sheeting) and the rest with normal fibre cement sheet as it can take a bit more of a knocking over plasterboard. 

A skylight but not the full roofing sheet panel.

Insulate the walls and use Anticon blanket under the roof sheeting - you wont regret that, even in the workshop space put the Anticon at least.

20Amp circuit and point so you can run 2 electric elements if need be.

A small dedicated hotwater system (50L office/unit systems) that you can turn off when not in use to save on electricity - just remember to turn it on 24hrs before brewday. Dont get the house hot water plumbed to the shed, cost more than having the dedicated unit. I have often seen 2nd hand units come up on ebay reasonably priced or check the local rag.

Any reason you need the rollerdoor in the brewery area? If you need a large opening to move equipment, try double PA doors so at least you can insulate and seal them. Put the other R-A-D on the workshop side maybe. Or alternatively - have the access from the workshop area via Double Cavity Sliders, and where the RAD is put a window there and another on the RH wall (as looking at the plan) for ventilation. There is no point in insulating the area with the rollerdoor there as all benifits be lost.

My 2c FWIW - dunno if this helps any. I am in the process of designing our new house and trying to convice SWMBO to allow me to incorporate a celler for brewing in, or at least do something similar to what you are doing. 

Cheers

Sully


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## Jazman (16/3/09)

a mechanics pit could be good to store kegs ect and good ventaltion ....whirly birds,,gable louvered vents in the walls and also a ventalated ridge on the roof maybee a canopy on the flue pipe and flue vent where your kettle is going...


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## technocat (16/3/09)

Doogiechap said:


> +1 for the slope to the drain.
> Get at least a 20 amp circuit to the shed. More is better even if you do run gas you will appreciate it
> Sink a decent separate conduit between the house and shed to run Cat 5, Cat 6, hell in the future Cat 7, speaker wires for the garden music system etc. If you don't have it there you will kick your self (I regret my lack of foresight).
> Whirlygig or extraction fan in the roof. Your boil evap will come dripping back down on you
> ...



No need for seperate conduit, go wireless for internet connection and phone or use mains cable as a transfer medium between house and shed. I assume you would have at least an old clunker for a computer, and printer to run out your brewsheets. Need to seal floor with epoxy paint or similar as sticky malt residue hard to get out of a raw concrete floor. I speak from experience. As far as wives are concerned you rarely see them in the workshop/brew shed as they find it either to noisy, to messy and don't like the smell of hops pervading the air. Actually it is rather a male retreat where one can dream and scheme new ventures and projects, but I digress.


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## MarkBastard (16/3/09)

If I had a nice big area like that I'd try get a second hand commercial underbench fridge system. You know the big stainless steel ones that are a nice SS bench with fridges underneath? Some have sinks built into them. I'd use the underneath as fermenting fridges.


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## fraser_john (16/3/09)

My brew shed is about 3mx9m:

insulated
interior walls
sealed from dust
electrics, including 20amp outlet

What I should have done but could'nt (darn council &/or lack of funds):

Hot/Cold running water
Large laundry trough for washing
Exhaust fan
Small A/C, it does get to about 25 in there in the 40 degree days and it retains the heat once its warmed up

I use wireless for internet whilst out there, signal strength is weak, but it works. Phone is a central 2.4Ghz receiver and a handset out in brew shed.

I wished I had not done the floor the way I have, but it was built to be converted into a cinema/entertainment area when we go to sell the place in 10 years or so.

John


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## br33zy (16/3/09)

fraser_john said:


> ...
> 
> I use wireless for internet whilst out there, signal strength is weak, but it works. Phone is a central 2.4Ghz receiver and a handset out in brew shed.
> ...
> ...



Hi John,

Your 2.4Ghz phone may be the source of your weak wireless internet signal. They interfere with each other at that frequency apparently. Try a 5.8Ghz phone if you get a chance and see if you get any improvement.

As for a sloping floor. Our brew space serendipitously has one and its just brilliant being able to hose the floor down and have it all run away nicely. Especially when you don't intend to be hosing (exploding connectors and the like).

Cheers

Breezy


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## Cortez The Killer (16/3/09)

You may be able to draw some inspiration from here

http://www.jrbrewing.com/brewshed/

Cheers


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## Hoyt (16/3/09)

If i had a brew shed like that i would end up living there!!!


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## Doogiechap (16/3/09)

Beernut said:


> No need for seperate conduit, go wireless for internet connection and phone or use mains cable as a transfer medium between house and shed. I assume you would have at least an old clunker for a computer, and printer to run out your brewsheets. Need to seal floor with epoxy paint or similar as sticky malt residue hard to get out of a raw concrete floor. I speak from experience. As far as wives are concerned you rarely see them in the workshop/brew shed as they find it either to noisy, to messy and don't like the smell of hops pervading the air. Actually it is rather a male retreat where one can dream and scheme new ventures and projects, but I digress.



Different horses for different courses. In my experience I wish I had the separate conduit. If I have my shed door closed I have no wireless access and thus have an external wireless antenna for my shed mac. If I now had the opportunity to be able to hardwire I would.  
I would also have an audio feed to the main stereo so I could distribute the same music feed throughout the house for those rare moments when my taste in music correlates with the rest of my family 
I've also appreciated having a decent skylight/ fibreglass roof sheeting, allowing good natural light in.


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## wakkatoo (16/3/09)

Sully, you are a bloody genius. Thanks for putting in the time to write such a detailed response. Have printed it off and is sitting on the table for further consideration :icon_cheers: 



Sully said:


> Any reason you need the rollerdoor in the brewery area? If you need a large opening to move equipment, try double PA doors so at least you can insulate and seal them. Put the other R-A-D on the workshop side maybe. Or alternatively - have the access from the workshop area via Double Cavity Sliders, and where the RAD is put a window there and another on the RH wall (as looking at the plan) for ventilation. There is no point in insulating the area with the rollerdoor there as all benifits be lost.



Me being the dumbass that I am had completely forgot about the (non) insulative properties of a R-A-D. The one thing that is pretty much set is the footprint of the shed. Where doors go etc can all be altered really easily. I want easy access to all parts of the shed, with the minimum amount of R-A-D's as they are relatively expensive, and the diff between a new R-A-D and a nice 2nd hand 'double door' set up could be better spent elsewhere in the shed.

Might have a play with the door locations and put a revised plan up..

Cheers all, hope this is helping others who are thinking about building a dedicated shed.

*edit - spelling


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## Fents (16/3/09)

i'd kill for a real shed. one day grasshopper, one day.


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## Doc (16/3/09)

My rule of thumb is if you are putting in a power point, make it a double. Putting in a double, make it a quad.
If you are running power to it, then also run ethernet. You then can add an access point at the end of it and have both wired and wireless. 
Ethernet over power is ok, but I have found some limitations (eg. different circuits/phases).
Run both a 10 and 15amp circuit to the shed. That way you can run an air cond on one, or even two high powered electric devices (two separate circuits).
Insulate it.
Splash backs along the bottom of the walls, and as others suggested a floor drain.

Good luck with and would love to see the piccies as it comes together.

Doc


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/3/09)

Your shed is to small..

You are a MAN, and your shed is to SMALL....trust me on this...  


The biggest shed in the world would not be big enough... :lol:


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/3/09)

Doc said:


> My rule of thumb is if you are putting in a power point, make it a double. Putting in a double, make it a quad.
> If you are running power to it, then also run ethernet. You then can add an access point at the end of it and have both wired and wireless.
> Ethernet over power is ok, but I have found some limitations (eg. different circuits/phases).
> Run both a 10 and 15amp circuit to the shed. That way you can run an air cond on one, or even two high powered electric devices (two separate circuits).
> ...




Yes..also run Phone and Data cable to your shed..put in a 10pr phone cable, that way you will heave enough for speaker etc..

With power run 1 sub-mains to the shed ( from your main house switchboard )using cable big enough to handle 32Amp, that way you can hook up whatever you like, ie air-con, welders, power , light etc. Dont bother running a 10 & 15Amp circuit. Much better, easier and cheaper the 2 smaller circuits...


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## MarkBastard (16/3/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Yes..also run Phone and Data cable to your shed..put in a 10pr phone cable, that way you will heave enough for speaker etc..
> 
> With power run 1 sub-mains to the shed ( from your main house switchboard )using cable big enough to handle 32Amp, that way you can hook up whatever you like, ie air-con, welders, power , light etc. Dont bother running a 10 & 15Amp circuit. Much better, easier and cheaper the 2 smaller circuits...



I wouldn't run a 10 pair phone cable though, just run 4 CAT6 cables IMHO. Can be used in the same way if desired (speakers etc) and even things like HDMI over Cat6 etc down the track. I'd probably run at least one coax cable too come to think of it.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (16/3/09)

The more power the better, I did a 60 m run of 3 phase cable, big stuff ! I can run what ever I want.I have two separate circuits of single phase (15 A) one runs the cool room and fridges the other runs brewery.I had it all on one circuit but kept tripping the breaker.The first sparky didn't quite get the idea of a home brewery.You got to explain really well just how much power you need.Anti con the roof and don't have full length clear sheet , they get f...ing hot, I would rather turn on the fluros than bake like a dog in the shed.
GB


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/3/09)

Very hard to get 3 phase in a domestic situation...actually impossible

The reason I suggested a 32A sub mains is that it will keep you within the legal guidelines..

Most houses are restriced to a 64Amp TOTAL load, this helps the suppliers know how much electricity to supply


32A sub mains is acceptable and basically a standard. 

It allows you to run " whatever" in your shed without overloading your total house rating

Basically, from a sparky point of view, if you dont run a big circuit, YOU WILL PAY IN THE FUTURE


and as for the CAT 5 ...yes , thinking on it, run a few CAT 5 cables, ..... in a seperate conduit ( same trench ) to keep it legal...


Damn I hate being in the whole sparky/comms/IT game sometimes... :unsure:


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## FarsideOfCrazy (17/3/09)

I'm taking all this on board fellas :beerbang: 

I'm about to build one of these, http://www.allgal.com.au/Curved-Roof-Garages.html 

I was going to insulate and run power but water will have to wait till we build a new house. So it looks like my 60 litre water drum and trolley will get a work out every time I do a brew.

Probably will be 4.8m wide x 6m long with an awning off the side. I like to call it 'Mans land'.

Cheers.


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/3/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> .I had it all on one circuit but kept tripping the breaker.The first sparky didn't quite get the idea of a home brewery.You got to explain really well just how much power you need.Anti con the roof and don't have full length clear sheet , they get f...ing hot, I would rather turn on the fluros than bake like a dog in the shed.
> GB



The reason for running sub-mains is that you have a separata distribution board in the shed that has individual breakers for light, power, air-con etc. That way if you are welding, you wont trip the light circuit, just the welding circuit.

My shed has 5 circuits. 2 light, 2 x 10amp and 1x15amp all with Earth-leakage breakers (ELCB's)

And you can never have to many lights or power points, fluro lights are cheap as and so are double power point. Put them every where as you wont believe how handy they are. Same goes for your house, put power points everywhere, especially lounge rooms, cause SWMBO will always want silly things light table lamps and so on and your entertainment setup will probable need at least six outlets alone ( TV, DVD, Stereo, Set-top-box,am, VCR etc )


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## white.grant (18/3/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> The reason for running sub-mains is that you have a separata distribution board in the shed that has individual breakers for light, power, air-con etc. That way if you are welding, you wont trip the light circuit, just the welding circuit.
> 
> My shed has 5 circuits. 2 light, 2 x 10amp and 1x15amp all with Earth-leakage breakers (ELCB's)



My shed has a sub-mains but only 3 circuits. 1 x 10amp, 1 light and 1x15amp. The 15a is very handy and will be moreso when I get my electric HLT going.

cheers

grant


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## PostModern (18/3/09)

Watching this thread with interest, as I'll be building a brewery in the basement of my new place (sometime). Main things I thought of were power, gas, exhaust fans, large opening (double doors rather than a rollerdoor feels right to me) and floor cleanliness and run-off/drainage. Also, a large sink would have to be a must. I think I'll be recycling my current ceramic laundry tub. The other thing I thought of (and will be in the architect's brief) is to put the room directly under the bar in the living area, so I can plumb my font straight to the keg fridge thru the floor.


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## Cortez The Killer (18/3/09)

PostModern said:


> Watching this thread with interest, as I'll be building a brewery in the basement of my new place (sometime). Main things I thought of were power, gas, exhaust fans, large opening (double doors rather than a rollerdoor feels right to me) and floor cleanliness and run-off/drainage. Also, a large sink would have to be a must. I think I'll be recycling my current ceramic laundry tub. The other thing I thought of (and will be in the architect's brief) is to put the room directly under the bar in the living area, so I can plumb my font straight to the keg fridge thru the floor.


I'm sure the IBU's will be expecting a brewhouse warming when this is all finished


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## PostModern (18/3/09)

Cortez The Killer said:


> I'm sure the IBU's will be expecting a brewhouse warming when this is all finished



2012 for my second 21st, if I'm lucky  

Apologies for the hijack.


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## wakkatoo (18/3/09)

Had to submit final draft on actual floorplan today. Thanks to some feedback from here I've ditched the R-A-D in the brewery end, added a window and a double sliding glass door and requested that skylight sheets are not used at the brewery end.

As such, the mud map looks like this:





Next step is to think about electrics and plumbing. The cheapest option is to run everything to the bottom left corner (as you look at it), then run along the wall / roof to wherever I need it. Apart from it being cheaper, I like this idea as it allows for change further down the track.

I really liked sully's idea of 3 different areas, so I need to factor that in as well with plumbing.

To be continued...


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/3/09)

You can put plumping. power, phone/comms/data, plumbing in the same trench. 

I PERSONALLY would spend a bit extra in the construction stage with the above than wishing you didnt ...

It is a LOT CHEAPER and EASIER to go overboard when building than it is when the building is finished and you have to install latter

Being in the industry I would have no idea what I am talking about h34r:

Running everything from bottom left is a smart option, well it is your only option


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## Sully (18/3/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I PERSONALLY would spend a bit extra in the construction stage with the above than wishing you didnt ...
> 
> It is a LOT CHEAPER and EASIER to go overboard when building than it is when the building is finished and you have to install latter



Agree


Cheers

Sully


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## pokolbinguy (18/3/09)

PostModern said:


> put the room directly under the bar in the living area, so I can plumb my font straight to the keg fridge thru the floor.



Damn that is a good idea. I love it.



This thread is really interesting, not that I have a shed to turn to a brewery but hopefully one day in the future I will....O the dreams.


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## PostModern (18/3/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You can put plumping. power, phone/comms/data, plumbing in the same trench.



You know, I don't think you can. If there's a problem with the plumbing, such as a leak, you don't want your electrics going bang. Not certain, but pretty sure your services need to be separated. And you definitely don't want to mix plumping with plumbing!!!! My neighbour pointed out his separate water and elec trenches.


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## Leigh (18/3/09)

So if a leaky pipe sitting next to an electrical cable in water-tight conduit is a problem, why isn't rain water a problem to the same electrical cable?


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## PostModern (18/3/09)

Leigh said:


> So if a leaky pipe sitting next to an electrical cable in water-tight conduit is a problem, why isn't rain water a problem to the same electrical cable?



I really don't know. I guess because a leak could go for more than 40 days and 40 nights. Haven't gone too far with the specifics of my own plans to this detail yet. What I said was from the complaints of my neighbour as he dug his multiple trenches. For all I know, different conditions might apply in other states, or even other council areas.


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## Leigh (18/3/09)

When we built, we had 5 different trenches due to the services coming from different points on the nature strip and going to different points in the house...

Telstras website suggests you can run all in one pit, but I suppose it depends on where the services have already been laid.

I don't know the answer, just testing the water.

Speaking of which, we had a water leak under the front porch that must have been going for close to 40 days and 40 nights because we had water seeping out beneath the slab on all four sides (took a while to figure out where it was coming from)...required a 6th trench to replace the water pipe and a 7th to drain the water away (which took 2 weeks!) The ground was a quigmire for weeks after...no issue at that time with electricity or phone lines.


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## MarkBastard (18/3/09)

Yep I'd run the electrical and data in the same trench but different conduits. Run Cat6 (not 5 or 5e) for the data. Make sure the Cat6 runs are no longer than 100m. I'd try and make the data conduit bigger than you need, maybe even use PVC pipe, so that you can later pull more cables through if you want to. Maybe even when you lay it put some nylon rope in there too to help you pull through any future cables.

I'd personally run 4 CAT6 cables and 2 COAX cables in the data conduit. Assuming you may want TV in there one day.

Each CAT6 cable has 4 pairs of wires (8 wires in total). Each pair can for example be rigged up as speaker wire, phone cable, etc. Very flexible way of doing it. People are running all sorts of crazy stuff over cat6 these days. And of course they're good for the computer. I wouldn't rely on wireless unless you want to set up a bridge using pringles cans as directional antennas!


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## Online Brewing Supplies (19/3/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Very hard to get 3 phase in a domestic situation...actually impossible
> 
> The reason I suggested a 32A sub mains is that it will keep you within the legal guidelines..
> 
> ...


This house is a WA 100 years old, 3 phase has been here years.The 3 phase is a complete separate circuit run straight off the meter.Very expensive to do if you dont have 3 phase to the meter.Dont follow that domestic 3 phase is impossible ?
GB


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## Sammus (19/3/09)

Surely those little pesky wires in a CAT cable wouldn't be any good for speakers? any decent speaker wires are big and fat, like 10awg or something... and why would you have speakers so far away from the main stereo? or am I missing something completely here? do mean like a little intercom or something? I guess that would be handy to talk to the house...

I wish I was buidling a house..or at least a shed.


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## white.grant (19/3/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> This house is a WA 100 years old, 3 phase has been here years.The 3 phase is a complete separate circuit run straight off the meter.Very expensive to do if you dont have 3 phase to the meter.Dont follow that domestic 3 phase is impossible ?
> GB



My Gran's house in Newcastle had an 3 phase instantaneous hot water system in the bathroom. The heater's long gone but the three phase remains. Integral in NSW say that you can have a maximum of 63amp per phase for 3 phase circuits before you need to make special applications. So if you want 3 phase and have deep enough pockets, you can have it.

cheers

grant


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/3/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Yep I'd run the electrical and data in the same trench but different conduits. Run Cat6 (not 5 or 5e) for the data. Make sure the Cat6 runs are no longer than 100m. I'd try and make the data conduit bigger than you need, maybe even use PVC pipe, so that you can later pull more cables through if you want to. Maybe even when you lay it put some nylon rope in there too to help you pull through any future cables.
> 
> I'd personally run 4 CAT6 cables and 2 COAX cables in the data conduit. Assuming you may want TV in there one day.
> 
> Each CAT6 cable has 4 pairs of wires (8 wires in total). Each pair can for example be rigged up as speaker wire, phone cable, etc. Very flexible way of doing it. People are running all sorts of crazy stuff over cat6 these days. And of course they're good for the computer. I wouldn't rely on wireless unless you want to set up a bridge using pringles cans as directional antennas!




Cat 6 is a wank.... Just run Cat5,

Power will need to be in conduit and you can run them all in the same trench.


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## reg (19/3/09)

Grantw said:


> My Gran's house in Newcastle had an 3 phase instantaneous hot water system in the bathroom. The heater's long gone but the three phase remains. Integral in NSW say that you can have a maximum of 63amp per phase for 3 phase circuits before you need to make special applications. So if you want 3 phase and have deep enough pockets, you can have it.
> 
> cheers
> 
> grant


3 phase in domestic situations is becoming more common these days with houses being generally larger than normally built over the years.
The size of Airconditioning is actually pushing people towards 3 phase.
The problem comes trying to balance the loads over the phases as most domestic electricians dont factor that into the larger grid loading problems.

If I had 3 phase I would most definently have it out to the shed.

I ran a 6mm cable to the shed with its own switchboard, but I only ran a yellow phone line with 2 pair out there.
I am spewing now I didnt think to run three or four cat 5 cables,
Always run a couple of extras for networking etc.


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## porky (19/3/09)

I put three phase in my shed....cost $7,000 and had to be paid up front. Then waited nine months for it to be done.
But worth it to me.

Cheers,
Bud


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## Leigh (19/3/09)

We need to get a planning permit to get 3-phase in our shire, and essentially the council knocks back every application in residential areas as they consider 3-phase the first step towards running a business out of the shed, which while not illegal, is also frowned upon.

What are those single phase to three phase converters like? Any good?


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## MarkBastard (19/3/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Cat 6 is a wank.... Just run Cat5,
> 
> Power will need to be in conduit and you can run them all in the same trench.



Typical sparkie.

Cat5 is dead. The minimum is Cat5e. You can get 305m of Cat6 cable for $120 from 4cabling.com.au, there's no point running Cat5e.


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## MarkBastard (19/3/09)

Sammus said:


> Surely those little pesky wires in a CAT cable wouldn't be any good for speakers? any decent speaker wires are big and fat, like 10awg or something... and why would you have speakers so far away from the main stereo? or am I missing something completely here? do mean like a little intercom or something? I guess that would be handy to talk to the house...
> 
> I wish I was buidling a house..or at least a shed.



Nah it works pretty well. You've got 8 wires in there in total. If you want to be able to run high wattage speakers / amps you can use a whole cat5 cable for each speaker (ie 2 pairs for + 2 pairs for -). Or you can get away with using just part of the cable.

Yep you can use it for intercom too.

Phone, Intercom, security cameras, computer networking, video (HDMI, component, RGB, S-Video, Composite).

The list goes on, very flexible and cheap cable to run, and the twisted pairs work their magic and make it very resistant to interference etc.

That said you can run your own speaker wire too, no harm, it's just Cat6 is a great 'just in case' cable to run, as you can use it for things you didn't previously think you needed.


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/3/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Typical sparkie.
> 
> Cat5 is dead. The minimum is Cat5e. You can get 305m of Cat6 cable for $120 from 4cabling.com.au, there's no point running Cat5e.



Ok...Cat5e

But I am not a sparkie. <_< 

I am a Tele/communications tech and have 20yrs exp working with Data, Voice, Fibre,Radio, uWave, PABX's, Multiplexing equip, cabling ..etc...etc 

Cat 6 is not much better than cat 5e and in general gives no real advantage...


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## technocat (19/3/09)

Two phase is always an option. It sure was a godsend when I built two sheds a few years after the house was built.


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## PostModern (19/3/09)

:icon_offtopic: Sorry for the big OT, but what's the minimum cable needed for 10G? I don't think anyone would need 10Gb/s in their brew shed, but if one was wiring a whole house for future proofing...?


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## MarkBastard (19/3/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Cat 6 is not much better than cat 5e and in general gives no real advantage...



The cable itself is superior, and only costs slightly more. In a general home setting there's not much difference in what you can do at the moment, but it is certainly more future proof. Costs the same labour, slightly more in parts, i don't see the problem.


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## MarkBastard (19/3/09)

PostModern said:


> :icon_offtopic: Sorry for the big OT, but what's the minimum cable needed for 10G? I don't think anyone would need 10Gb/s in their brew shed, but if one was wiring a whole house for future proofing...?



It's expected that Cat6 will be able to run it. I believe only fibre does at the moment (at least officially). Cat5e will not support 10gb/s ethernet.

There's also cat6e and cat7 blah blah but the truth is cat6 is here now, doesnt cost much, and people are saying the same crap they did about cat5e "why would you need it", I guess no one likes planning ahead and there difference of 10c per meter of cable is just too much and will break the bank!


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## therook (19/3/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Ok...Cat5e
> 
> But I am not a sparkie. <_<
> 
> ...




I'm with you Stu, 30 years in the comms industry. Cat 5 would easily do the job in a domestic house.......Cat 5 is also still used.

Rook


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## gibbocore (19/3/09)

but 10c per meter to future proof?


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## MarkBastard (19/3/09)

Nah I reckon he should just install token ring over coax...I've been in the industry for 60 years btw


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## MarkBastard (19/3/09)

gibbocore said:


> but 10c per meter to future proof?



10c per meter if you source the cable yourself.

Or probably $2 extra a meter if you listen to the advice of these experts and go with cat5 haha. Gotta love the ACMA protecting these dudes. Not allowed to do anything yourself in Australia.

Personally I'd suggest buying a roll of Cat6 and if you know anyone with ACMA license get them to sign off your work for a carton of home brew.


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/3/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Nah I reckon he should just install token ring over coax...I've been in the industry for 60 years btw




Do you have to fight to get on the net in the nursing home... :lol:


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## Online Brewing Supplies (19/3/09)

Ah Remember Vista ? Latest stuff nobody wants.
GB


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## reg (19/3/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Do you have to fight to get on the net in the nursing home... :lol:


HA HA Brilliant.. :icon_cheers:


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## MarkBastard (19/3/09)

The funny part is I'm being sarcastic and I'm 26


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## pdilley (19/3/09)

Going off the computer cabling topic monster 

Back to the basics, if I had my dithers I'd follow my mushroom industry book designs. Central draining, tiles floor and wall for those bleach bomb sanitization sessions and those thick rubber mats with holes in them to stand on so you don't slip on wet tiles. They are also used in food industry. So then you need a tap inside to hook up a hose to hose everything down the drain after clean ups and bleach bombs. If it's going to get wet keep electronics to a minimum. Or have a small room dedicated to electrics, table, computer, data connection.

I'm staying away from computer recommendations even though it's my field; no need considering the responses so far. I'd rather keep that for inside the house if the sheds not far away and the house is far less of a hostile environment for computers but it's your dream shed so build what you think is best and enjoy.a


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/3/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> The funny part is I'm being sarcastic and I'm 26




Mmm....I had a sneaking suspicion that you where some sort of fresh uni grad type with clean hands..


You wouldnt be old enough to remeber cat 5.. <_<


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## wakkatoo (19/3/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Going off the computer cabling topic monster
> 
> Back to the basics, if I had my dithers I'd follow my mushroom industry book designs. Central draining, tiles floor and wall for those bleach bomb sanitization sessions and those thick rubber mats with holes in them to stand on so you don't slip on wet tiles. They are also used in food industry. So then you need a tap inside to hook up a hose to hose everything down the drain after clean ups and bleach bombs. If it's going to get wet keep electronics to a minimum. Or have a small room dedicated to electrics, table, computer, data connection.
> 
> I'm staying away from computer recommendations even though it's my field; no need considering the responses so far. I'd rather keep that for inside the house if the sheds not far away and the house is far less of a hostile environment for computers but it's your dream shed so build what you think is best and enjoy.a




Thankyou. 

I can categorically state here and now that there will be no need to connect to the internet inside the shed. I simply do not want to as I am building my own office inside the house, and I spend far too much time on computers as it is. If I want to play music or podcasts, I'll hook up my ipod to a sound system I already have and then I'll turn it up really loud :super: 
I have a spare laptop which will be loaded with beersmith and won't need to be connected. As for what goes in what trench, well, I leave that to those who know more about it than me. A extra trench doesn't worry me, only costs a few beers as I'm mates with the bloke who owns the earthwork company.

So to get this thread away from the pros and cons of what cat to bury in the trench (someone can start another thread on this I think), can we look at more 'general' shed suggestions. 

Cheers


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/3/09)

Getting back on track..

You want the basics in the shed

Power...a 35Amp sub-mains with dist board in shed with ELCB's with lots of lights and power points
Phone /Data... 2 cat 5 cables
Water...yes, you need water for brewing
Sewer...If you are going to have a sink, where is the wast water going to go..
Windows, Doors & Wirly birds on the roof. Brewing gets warm and airflow is good

TRY to do the slab with a drain point...concrete guys may whinge, but it will be worth it..

Actually you may be better to put a water tank next to the shed with a pump for the brewery, then plumb everything in poly. Lots cheaper than getting a plumber to extend your mains water in copper

These are the sort of things I would do at construction stage. Things like linings, tiles etc can be done latter...


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## schooey (19/3/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> tiles floor and wall




Just my $0.02 but I wouldn't be going with tiles given the range of modern floor coatings designed specifically for the food industry. 

Tiles = grouted joins and cracks; Havens for bacteria.

On that note, some good research into the best type of drain to install to be able to control hygeine and also heat loss, dust etc etc


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## MarkBastard (19/3/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Mmm....I had a sneaking suspicion that you where some sort of fresh uni grad type with clean hands..
> 
> 
> You wouldnt be old enough to remeber cat 5.. <_<



Actually I work in the IT industry and deal with jaded old farts that don't keep up to date all the time. But that's okay because it keeps me in work and makes me look good.

That fact you're saying I'm not old enough to remember cat 5 really does prove how obsolete it is. You can't have it both ways.

*wakkatoo, *just make sure your second conduit (not the power one) has enough spare space so later on you can pull through whatever cables you want without having to dig the trench up again. Sounds like you don't want any data / speaker cables etc but now's the time to plan for the future anyway. Even for resale value of your house etc. Chuck a bit of water proof rope in the conduit so you can use it to pull through any future cables.


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## schooey (19/3/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Chuck a bit of water proof rope in the conduit so you can use it to pull through any future cables.



That along with a conduit with extra space is about the best idea you IT/PABX/Networking geeks have come up with so far....


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/3/09)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Actually I work in the IT industry and deal with jaded old farts that don't keep up to date all the time. But that's okay because it keeps me in work and makes me look good.
> 
> That fact you're saying I'm not old enough to remember cat 5 really does prove how obsolete it is. You can't have it both ways.




Those jaded old farts are the ones who will sack you for being a smart ass... :icon_cheers:


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/3/09)

schooey said:


> That along with a conduit with extra space is about the best idea you IT/PABX/Networking geeks have come up with so far....




Us cabling guys ALLWAYS install draw wires in conduit/walls.... :icon_cheers:


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## pdilley (19/3/09)

Please have a little bit of decorum for the original poster and take the discussions to PM that are OT to his original question.


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## schooey (19/3/09)

It's a pretty relaxed forum here, dude, most peeps will wander back to topic sooner or later, not that it has digressed too much anyway.... But hey, maybe you been lurking here longer than your 63 posts suggest you have


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/3/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Please have a little bit of decorum for the original poster and take the discussions to PM that are OT to his original question.




Yes Master :icon_chickcheers:


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## wakkatoo (19/3/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Please have a little bit of decorum for the original poster and take the discussions to PM that are OT to his original question.



Cheers. Happy to hear all the techo side of running these cables but I think its run its course here. As said before, won't be hooking up the 'net to the shed but will certainly make the conduit larger and invest in a length of rope.

There will be a tank off the brewery end of the shed, dunno what size yet. Can't remember if mains water is to be connected, will have to confirm when we are having tea with the builders on the weekend.

I'm all for saving water so any waste water from the brewery will end up in the garden, not the sewer. For the same reason there won't be a toilet - that's what lemon trees are for


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/3/09)

If you have a tank, then you shouldnt need mains water, but it will depend how much rainfall you get,

10,000ltrs should be plenty.You will get away with that for brewing easly

I rely on rain water, so at least I have a good idea about things like that. You will pay a few thou for a tank and about $500 for a decent pump

We have a 30,000ltr tank for the house, + 2x 20,00ltr tanks, and I rarely have to transfer water to the big tank


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## Airgead (20/3/09)

wakkatoo said:


> There will be a tank off the brewery end of the shed, dunno what size yet. Can't remember if mains water is to be connected, will have to confirm when we are having tea with the builders on the weekend.
> 
> I'm all for saving water so any waste water from the brewery will end up in the garden, not the sewer. For the same reason there won't be a toilet - that's what lemon trees are for



I brew using tank water. I have 5000l and that does nicely for watering the garden and brewing (in Sydney so we have fair rainfall). Best thing you can do is hook up a return pipe to the top of the tank so output water from the chiller goes back into the tank. The tank is big enough that the water stays cold and you use no water at all for chilling.

Cheers
Dave


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## GreggJ (20/3/09)

Get the correct fall put in the slab to a drain. Steel float finish to the concrete (32mpa) extra layer of mesh and then an epoxy coating. Beautiful


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## Kleiny (20/3/09)

wakkatoo said:


> There will be a tank off the brewery end of the shed, dunno what size yet. Can't remember if mains water is to be connected, will have to confirm when we are having tea with the builders on the weekend.
> 
> I'm all for saving water so any waste water from the brewery will end up in the garden, not the sewer. For the same reason there won't be a toilet - that's what lemon trees are for



Cant live without my tank, brewing water and garden water

The runoff is great for the garden just dont let any harsh chemicals go on the garden, (PBW and bleach=no garden  )

Didn't realize lemon trees liked a good crap :lol: 

On a serious note if you need a hand or just want me to come over to drink your beer, have a brew day IM IN

Every time ive been to Creswick its been raining, so your tank should be full all time Wakka

Kleiny


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## wakkatoo (20/3/09)

Kleiny said:


> Didn't realize lemon trees liked a good crap :lol:
> 
> On a serious note if you need a hand or just want me to come over to drink your beer, have a brew day IM IN
> 
> ...



Thanks for the offer. A hand on the shed, nah should be good. Some company at a brew day or just to have a few beers - absolutely! B) 

As for the lemon tree, well, was planning on 'watering' it only. Tend to get funny looks when I 'mulch' the plants so I now keep that in-house :blink:


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## fraser_john (20/3/09)

wakkatoo said:


> As for the lemon tree, well, was planning on 'watering' it only. Tend to get funny looks when I 'mulch' the plants so I now keep that in-house :blink:



Went for a tour at a citrus farm to please my daughter whilst in Mildura, they stressed the Three P's, Pee, Poop, Peels....so feel free! LOL....I am pretty sure they were referring to chicken, cow, sheep composted manure, but they did not make it real clear!


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## wakkatoo (7/4/09)

Just a little update - work begins on the house next week :beerbang: with the shed being ordered at the end of this one (fingers crossed). Hopefully the shed will go up shortly after as it's initial use will be to store all the stuff for the house. 
Had a little play around with brewery layout and have come up with this:




The top design is what I'm aiming for and will be stoked when its set up like that, however, I'm always one for trying to improve so I put my future design which incorporates a neat little dual-coolroom setup B) 

I've tried to keep three distinct areas, thanks to a suggestion on here and I've been a little generous in bench sizings on some things (grain mill as an eg) but it gives a good idea of what I'm shooting for.

Gotta have a think about power point locations as well as talk to the electrician about number / size of fuses for the shed as well as how and where it will be plumbed (will only be tank water).

One question I do have for you all is what thoughts on the ceiling? I was originally just going to line and insulate the shed roof but then I thought maybe putting in a 'false ceiling' at gutter level. Advantages I see are - better insulation, easier to run power / water to where I want it, will finish off better and allow better usage of the vertical space as it would become a bit of a mezzanine storage area for my workshop area. Disadvantages are - possible condensation from boil, possibly more expensive to do?

Thoughts?

edit- apologies for the quality of the image. Didn't expect it to do that <_<


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## Supra-Jim (8/4/09)

If your worried about condensation from the boil you could always install an exhaust fan.

:icon_cheers: SJ


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## wakkatoo (25/5/09)

Well, time for an update:

I'm quickly learning to not trust a thing the builder says! Lucky I know them :lol: 

Today there was FINALLY some movement on the house - footing trenches got dug. 




Of course it would decide to rain today as well!!
As for the shed, well, no movement on that but a start on the house gets me closer to the shed.

In addition to that, had a heap of gear arrive in the last couple of days so get to set the AG gear all up tonight. Just waiting on an Urn. Brew frame metal has ben bought, measured and will be cut and assembled when I get some spare time in the coming weeks!


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## clean brewer (25/5/09)

Good work Wakkatoo,

Ive been waiting in anticipation for you to do an AG Brew...  Shit, I remember when I wanted to have a look at 1(AG Brew) being done and you popped up and said you'd be keen to have a look aswell...

That was about 13 AG brews ago now for me....  

:icon_cheers: CB


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## wakkatoo (25/5/09)

Yeah, tell me about it! Moving interstate, new jobs, building a house, and lack of frickin room at this place has kept it away from me. 

Soon tho, very soon ^_^


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## wakkatoo (18/6/09)

What a difference some fine weather makes!

Some good progress made on the house. 




Every brick laid, nail hammered and joist fixed gets me closer to the shed  

On the brewery front, frame is made waiting for a paint and some shelving (this weekend). Urn is still yet to arrive - easier to spend a little on a lot than the other way around!


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## wakkatoo (28/8/09)

Meh, haven't touched this thread in a while as I haven't been brewing  

A heap of ingredients arrived at the postoffice today from grain and grape in order for me to brew my virgin AG. Of course I got the notification after it had shut so gotta wait till monday to pick it up :angry: 

Anyhoo, here is an update on the house...




And here is the main deck...




If anyone is handy on Photoshop etc, feel free to have a go at designing my outdoor bar that will go up against the wall  Gotta have a bbq, prep area (inc sink) and 4-way flooded font. 

Was hoping to be in to watch the AFL GF but looking like its gonna be another 2 week after that. Better be soon as I'm itchin for some regular brew days!!


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## wakkatoo (19/12/11)

Yeah, Yeah, Zombie thread, I know.

Lot of water has passed through the brewery since that last pic and it would seem that, fingers crossed, the shed frame will start to go up tomorrow and with everything going to plan, completed by Christmas. Just a lazy 2 years over due. I could use some adjectives to give a better picture of my view on the builders, but I can't think of any that would not end up with this thread deleted, me on an indefinate AHB ban and Gordon Ramsay telling me to 'keep it clean' :lol: 

I'd post a pic but its just a concrete slab at the moment. Oh, and the size changed slightly too - 3 bay shed, 9m x 9m.


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## Yob (19/12/11)

has the landscaper been in Wakka?


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## wakkatoo (19/12/11)

Yeah mate, looks a whole lot different to that. Probably because we did the landscaping (and continue to do so)


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## Yob (19/12/11)

dont forget to take some piccies on the way :super: 

I ferkin love me shed, it's getting a face lift early next year.. gunna be mental..

Youre not a real man unless ya got a shed... and possibly a beard  

:lol:


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## wakkatoo (22/12/11)

Damn they worked quick. Construction crew turned up at 3pm Wednesday. By 5.30 when they knocked off it looked like this:




Back at 7am the following morning and at 5.15 yesterday afternoon they handed me the keys. 12 working hours all up. :beerbang: 




Merry Christmas to me :drinks:


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## Morrie0069 (22/12/11)

Looks good Wakka and just in time to enjoy for Xmas! :beerbang: 

I'm looking at something similar for my place (hopefully soon) - can you give me a rough idea on the cost (slab & shed)?

Cheers,

Morrie


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## Lecterfan (22/12/11)

wakkatoo said:


> Merry Christmas to me :drinks:



Awesome stuff mate!!!!! Can't wait to have a gawk around inside and a few beers!


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## Yob (22/12/11)

:icon_chickcheers: Next Ballarat frivolities may well be dry :lol:


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## wakkatoo (2/3/12)

Next stage is to get power to the shed and hook up the gutters so its all legit and in readiness for the tank.

Had it all marked out and the contractor turned up and started before I had a chance to move the trailer. Now I need the damn thing tomorrow to collect the conduit I need <_< . Lucky I have slaves children to help me get it out.


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## NickB (2/3/12)

Only one word for all this sheddy goodness....


" :super: "

Oh, and " :icon_chickcheers: "

So two words!

Looks great mate!


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## MarkBastard (2/3/12)

If you don't mind me asking how much does a shed like that set you back?


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## wakkatoo (2/3/12)

Mark^Bastard said:


> If you don't mind me asking how much does a shed like that set you back?




PM sent


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