# Cube chilling- possible alternative to hop additions



## TwoCrows (28/7/17)

No chill wort cooling / cube chilling with high hopped beers.

If you like hoppy IPA / APA 's.

I have been thinking about the offset times needed for hop additions when cubing, 60 minutes becomes 45 and 15 minutes becomes flame out and so on.

The addition of large amounts of hops at the end of a boil going into the cube and the unknown amount of IBU's / bittering.

If you were to do all additions to the boil excluding the 60 minute bittering addition and then when filling the cube with wort add the bittering 60 min addition to the cube.


Example...

Possible Mash hop

Possible Fwh addition

No 60 minute hop !!

Possible 40min

Possible 30min

Possible 20min

Possible 15min

Possible 5min

Flame out

Whirlpool @82 degrees Celsius

Wort into cube on top of 60 min bittering hop addition.


My question is..

Would this method work out similar to a standard / normal brew days hop additions?

ie: Similar bittering as a 60 min boil as the cube will be around 80 degrees and then begining the slow cool down, would this time in the cube at this temp be enough to impart satisfactory bittering.

Adding a 60 min addition to the cube, say 20 grams, sounds better than adding 100 grams plus of late addition hops and chancing it.


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## Rocker1986 (28/7/17)

There's no need for a 60 minute boil addition to become 45 minutes because of no chill. The difference between 60 and 75 minutes boiling is **** all in terms of bitterness extracted. It's only the late additions that are really affected by it.

I also can't see how adding a 60 minute "bittering" addition to a cube at 80 degrees would give anywhere near the amount of bitterness that boiling it for 60 minutes would. A lot of people cube hop for flavor and aroma, not bitterness.

It's not that hard to account for it anyway, when I design APA recipes I add all the flameout and either 5 or 10 minute additions first, and then top up the IBUs with a proper 60 minute addition or FWH addition if required. I don't even bother to account for no-chilling it. Whether or not the calculated IBU figure is accurate I don't know, but if I brew them to between 35-40 calculated IBUs, they end up as intended in the glass, so


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## TwoCrows (28/7/17)

Quote:There's no need for a 60 minute boil addition to become 45 minutes because of no chill. The difference between 60 and 75 minutes boiling is **** all in terms of bitterness extracted. It's only the late additions that are really affected by it. 

So you have not had an issue with late addition hops in the cube @ 80 and then cooling down adding extra bittering the wort. 
I have not yet used the cube chill method as yet.
I like the flavor and aroma in my beers , but not a fan of high bitter at the end.


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## wide eyed and legless (28/7/17)

Late addition hops in a cube will add to bitterness and harshness in a no chill, what I have done is leave out the aroma/flavour additions until going into the fermenter, either boil up some wort or water add those additions at flameout steep for 20 mins and put into the fermenter with the rest of the wort pitch yeast.
Gordon Strong covers this in his book,and he only adds his bittering hops 20 minutes before the end of boil to be sure the oxygen has dissipated from the wort, obviously he adds more hops to compensate.


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## Dae Tripper (28/7/17)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Late addition hops in a cube will add to bitterness and harshness in a no chill, what I have done is leave out the aroma/flavour additions until going into the fermenter, either boil up some wort or water add those additions at flameout steep for 20 mins and put into the fermenter with the rest of the wort pitch yeast.
> Gordon Strong covers this in his book,and he only adds his bittering hops 20 minutes before the end of boil to be sure the oxygen has dissipated from the wort, obviously he adds more hops to compensate.



My IPAs prove that wrong, no harshness to the bittering and a shade over 50 IBU (don't make me check).

TwoCrows
My go IPA to is 10 min IPAs and doing in no chill is a negative 10 min IPA. 
How you could say that a cube hop is an unknown is puzzling, it will cool at a given rate determined by a few factors, and many are insignificant. 
Don't be fooled by 60min additions as a must have, it is all about time and temp. Work with any addition but take 20 min off when no chilling works really well and very predictable. Also I would limit temperature drops before cubing, get it in as soon as you can otherwise you are just asking for an infection.


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## Rocker1986 (28/7/17)

TwoCrows said:


> So you have not had an issue with late addition hops in the cube @ 80 and then cooling down adding extra bittering the wort.
> I have not yet used the cube chill method as yet.
> I like the flavor and aroma in my beers , but not a fan of high bitter at the end.



You won't really get any bitterness (in terms of IBUs) from hops added at 80C while the wort cools down because it falls below isomerisation temperatures, was what my point was. Hops added at this point will add mainly flavor and aroma, they are nothing like doing a full 60 minute hop boil, which primarily adds bitterness. I haven't tried a cube hop yet, but in any case my wort goes into the cube somewhere around 90C after a 20 minute stand in the kettle. If you don't like the level of bitterness then perhaps this method will work better, but I wouldn't be waiting for the wort to hit 80C before cubing it. Like Dae Tripper said, it should be cubed as soon as possible, obviously allowing for hot break to drop out first.

When I say I don't adjust any additions, it's probably more a case of working out over a few batches when to add the later additions to achieve the beer I'm aiming for. What I've settled on was in my previous post, reasonably large flameout and 5 or 10 minute additions, with a small early addition if needed. And a generous dry hop in the fermenter later on. I also don't find any harshness in the beers, to my palate they don't taste any different in that regard to any commercially brewed pale ales.

Like I said, there's no point moving 60 minute additions back to 40 or 45 minutes because the effect of no-chilling on a full 60 minute addition (i.e. making it like a 75 minute addition) is maybe 1 or 2 IBUs increase at the most. You are not going to taste that at the glass. It's the additions from 20 mins down to flameout/whirlpool that are affected more by the process, and these are the ones that you need to muck around with to achieve what you're aiming for, while perhaps removing the early addition altogether if necessary.

Even then, the rate of isomerisation drops as the temperature drops below boiling, everyone has different perceptions and preferences as well. It's for this reason that I don't agree with a "one size fits all" approach to it. The best way to attack it is to experiment with different timings and work out what works best to suit your own tastes. Other no-chillers use different schedules to me because that's what works best for them.


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## Gelding (29/7/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> You won't really get any bitterness (in terms of IBUs) from hops added at 80C while the wort cools down because it falls below isomerisation temperatures, was what my point was.



thats the science, but its simply incorrect to say it doesn't add bitterness.

Isomerised alpha acids = IBU's bu that is not the only thing that can make your beer bitter.


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## Rocker1986 (29/7/17)

Gelding said:


> thats the science, but its simply incorrect to say it doesn't add bitterness.
> 
> Isomerised alpha acids = IBU's bu that is not the only thing that can make your beer bitter.



Hence the "in terms of IBUs" in brackets.


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## wide eyed and legless (29/7/17)

Definitely does add some bitterness, but the harshness I quite like when finishing a pint I like a couple of minutes of that harsher hop flavour at the back of my tongue.


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## indica86 (1/8/17)

Have a play and work out what works for you. As you can see Rocker and Wide have two different palates and experiences.
I no chill. Usually FWH then flameout. I don't need to adjust a recipe because I make mine up with me and my gear in mind, I have an IPA boiling now. 200 g at flameout will be the go.


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## TwoCrows (1/8/17)

Cheers guys for your input, I am not a fan of bitter beers per-say , floral and fruity but not to sweet is my preference.
There are many ways to skin a cat they say and brewing is one of them.
I have read a bit lately. Water conditioning ,mashing , lautering , cooling fermenting and their are many ways to end up with great beer.

I am currently building a parallel cooler 12 mtrs long , 6 out and 6 back along my brew shed/ garage. As there is room and pvc seals up great this should be clean and sanitary Hope it does the trick!!


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## rude (1/8/17)

Give us a photo when you finish 
that would be geat


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## beerbrewer76543 (8/8/17)

I do a 60 minute addition for the bitterness level I want. 

At the end of the boil I let it cool to 80 degrees in the kettle with the lid off (takes 30 minutes) then transfer to cube and add the flavour hop addition.


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## Lionman (8/8/17)

I have tried a couple of different ways and continue to experiment.

My best IPAs are about 40% IBU from FWH additions and 60% from cube additions. This is wort sent sent straight to the cube, with cube IBUs calculated as 15min additions. Kegs made like this don't last long.

I've tried playing with letting the wort cool before cubing and I don't think the beer is as good. Its missing bitterness that I really enjoy, that bitterness you get from late hop additions that really lingers on the tongue. I found them a bit 'meh', but maybe i was just too tight with the quantity of hops.

I plan on doing it a bit different at some stage, I will do a FHW addition, then flameout addition while it cools to 80 (hop stand?) then a cube addition. I think this will give a good breadth of hop bitterness and flavours and make for a nice complex IPA.


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## wide eyed and legless (8/8/17)

I was reading an article today (Mr Wizard BYO)which was interesting,also this one https://www.morebeer.com/category/secret-big-hop-aroma-flavor.html adding hops and not chilling I have read before can lead to astingancy so what I percieve as bitterness could be that, but I do quite like it, though some say they find it hard to drink.


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## unwrittenlaw (8/8/17)

Are the hops added to the cube just as whole pellets or are they steeped and strained then added? Does this extra bit of hop trub become a nuisance later kegging in terms of blocking dip tubes/posts? Or would a 4 day cold crash once ferment is finished drop most of it out? 

I am working out recipes on brewers friend at the moment using the no chill option set to 20mins. Glad I figured it out as it adds about 25 IBU overall. 

Regards 

BIAB No Chill noob


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## wide eyed and legless (8/8/17)

I have just tried steeping my flame out additions and adding to the fermenter with the cooled wort, something that has to be played around with, as for cold crashing I was watching a Charlie Bamforth podcast last night he reckons that a cold crash of -1 degree for 24 hours is better than a week at 2 degrees C.


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## beerbrewer76543 (9/8/17)

I throw everything from the kettle into the cube and then everything from the cube into the fermenter. Crash chill for a couple of days at 1*C and add gelatine and the beer comes out crystal clear with no off flavours.


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## Lionman (9/8/17)

unwrittenlaw said:


> Are the hops added to the cube just as whole pellets or are they steeped and strained then added? Does this extra bit of hop trub become a nuisance later kegging in terms of blocking dip tubes/posts? Or would a 4 day cold crash once ferment is finished drop most of it out?
> 
> I am working out recipes on brewers friend at the moment using the no chill option set to 20mins. Glad I figured it out as it adds about 25 IBU overall.
> 
> ...



I filter the wort through a hop spider between the cube and the fermenter.


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## Schikitar (14/8/17)

Lionman said:


> I filter the wort through a hop spider between the cube and the fermenter.


I like that idea, I've been using a strainer but the hop mess that comes out the bottom of the cube soon renders the strainer useless, do you have any blockage issues using the hop spider this way?


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## laxation (14/8/17)

If you add hops at regular times and then no-chill, does that result in just the bitterness coming through?


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## Lionman (14/8/17)

Schikitar said:


> I like that idea, I've been using a strainer but the hop mess that comes out the bottom of the cube soon renders the strainer useless, do you have any blockage issues using the hop spider this way?



It's not completely painless, but I feel its worth it. Depending on the amount of hops in the cube, usually the last few liters might take 10mins or so to get through the spider. I find swishing the spider in a circular motion encourages the wort to flow by keeping the solids moving.

Using a lauter helix in the kettle helps even more as it means there are literally only cube hops in the cube, no kettle trub or kettle hops. I think the trub is worse for clogging (ie cold break protein cruddy stuff whatever it is).

One major advantage is that harvesting yeast is much easier as there is basically no crap in the fermenter. The majority of slurry will be yeast and I feel much more confident just pitching a cup of slurry from one brew to another.



laxation said:


> If you add hops at regular times and then no-chill, does that result in just the bitterness coming through?



I'm not sure exactly, but I think most people no chilling generally stick to one bittering addition and one cube addition (calculated as around 15mins of bittering), or they let the wort cool to 80c before cubing and plan their hop additions around that so that isomerization has largely stopped by the time the wort is cubed.


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## Lionman (14/8/17)

laxation said:


> If you add hops at regular times and then no-chill, does that result in just the bitterness coming through?



In short though, no. I have only ever no chilled and have produced some very hoppy beers. From spicy/herbal european ales to fruity/tropical IPAs. I'm not disappointed with the hopiness of my beers (still have some areas of improvement though, don't we all?)

I do plan on getting a chiller at some stage though just so I can see what the real difference is.


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## wide eyed and legless (14/8/17)

I have been reading more and more about late hop additions, polyphenols, and dry hopping Charlie Bamforth did a podcast where he touched on the subject of polyphenols from hops. As Gordon Strong suggests the wort must be cooled down quickly after the late hop additions, but if it is still possible to get polyphenols coming from cool (dry hopping) I wonder how much actually comes through from cube additions.
Another article from Palmer in BYO.
https://byo.com/bock/item/1762-hop-polyphenols-advanced-brewing


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## Lionman (14/8/17)

I have made cubed hopped beers with no dry hopping and you still get quite a bit of hop flavour. Dry hopping usually makes beer better though, and more hoppier, if you use enough.

I think chilling beer gives you finer control over the final product, and their are definitely compromises with no chill, but I think for a lot of home brewers, the beer made by cube hopping is great and the process is easier/faster so it's worth it.

No chill is just another tool at the home brewers disposal at the end of the day.


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## Schikitar (15/8/17)

I've been cube hopping lately, just yesterday I opened up a one and half week old cube that had 40g of hops in it. That resulted in about 2-3 litres of goopy mess at the bottom of the cube, which is surprising given the small amount of hops. When I pour that through my strainer it pretty much instantly clogs it up so I end up throwing caution to the wind and just chucking about half the sludge into the fermenter and the other half down the drain. I'm trying to think of a much better way to manage this. I was thinking about some sort of cylindrical strainer with a screw/clip on cap that would fit through the opening of the cube and then on pitching day you could retrieve it back out of the cube either by a bit of builders string attached or something similar, kinda like this - http://www.kitchenwarehouse.com.au/Mondo-Cylinder-Tea-Infuser - it has to be quite long and skinny though.

The other thought was to put my grain bag inside the fermenter, shake up and dump the cube and then, just like when doing BIAB, raise and drain.. hmmmm, maybe that would be better?! Thoughts/advice?


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## laxation (15/8/17)

Lionman said:


> I'm not sure exactly, but I think most people no chilling generally stick to one bittering addition and one cube addition (calculated as around 15mins of bittering), or they let the wort cool to 80c before cubing and plan their hop additions around that so that isomerization has largely stopped by the time the wort is cubed.


Cool, cheers. I've got one of each that I have just kegged - so I'll find out the difference in a week or so


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## Lionman (15/8/17)

That tea infuser would be too small, the hops in it will swell and fill it and you will get rubbish utilisation. Might work for smaller cube additions, maybe.

You can put a bag in the cube but you will have the same issue really. The bag will swell, and you won't be able to get it out of the cube/it will block the cube opening.

I have tried using a bag for filtering but I found the bag gets clogged and you end up with it ballooning with wort and it becomes hard to actually get the wort out. Made a big mess that day haha.

Sticking them in loose and then filtering on the way to the fermenter seems the best solution for me so far. Its not super fast but it works with a bit of patience and maybe a bit of cramp from swirling the spider. No pain , no gain.


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## Lionman (15/8/17)

laxation said:


> Cool, cheers. I've got one of each that I have just kegged - so I'll find out the difference in a week or so



I'm sure they will both be tasty.


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## laxation (15/8/17)

Schikitar said:


> When I pour that through my strainer it pretty much instantly clogs it up


What sort of strainer do you use?

Using something like this I have had no problems - albeit using 2x smaller cubes with 25-30g in each one. Can you use something like that, stop halfway to smack out the hops, and then keep going?


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## Schikitar (15/8/17)

Yeah, my strainer is similar, might see if I can find a larger conical strainer, something with a bit more depth. I'll take a photo next time it happens..


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## Schikitar (15/8/17)

Lionman said:


> That tea infuser would be too small, the hops in it will swell and fill it and you will get rubbish utilisation. Might work for smaller cube additions, maybe.


Yeah, that was just an example of the design, I was thinking something much longer, something that almost runs the full height of the cube, so the hops have room to expand and impart their goodness!


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## wide eyed and legless (15/8/17)

Schikitar said:


> Yeah, that was just an example of the design, I was thinking something much longer, something that almost runs the full height of the cube, so the hops have room to expand and impart their goodness!


That is the problem I am trying to avoid, it isn't just goodness that's imparted, it's the tannins that go with it, there must be a way around it, even though I never leave the wort more than 24 hours before pitching the yeast I still have concerns about the tannins, while we do a vigorous boil to eliminate the tannins, adjust pH in the lauter, we leave hops in the mix while the wort cools ?


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## Schikitar (16/8/17)

Something else I was considering, if you cube hopped a beer and put it away in storage for a week or two could that have a disastrous impact on flavour? Considering the average dry hop is say 4-5 days and hops like galaxy can imaprt those grass-like flavours after a short time.. Thoughts?


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## wide eyed and legless (17/8/17)

I don't have experience of this but it is not something I would do, I will play around with late additions a bit longer before I go back to chilling the wort.


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## BKBrews (17/8/17)

I'm all out of free keg space, so considering doing some cubing so that I can still brew.

I don't see the issue with doing all of my recipes as normal and just transferring into a sanitized cube, ensuring there is zero headspace when I put the lid on.

Most of my recipes I let naturally cool to 85 degrees before I start chilling anyway, so plan would be to start the transfer to the cube as soon as it hits this temp. Store for up to a month until a keg is free'd up.


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## JDW81 (17/8/17)

Schikitar said:


> Something else I was considering, if you cube hopped a beer and put it away in storage for a week or two could that have a disastrous impact on flavour? Considering the average dry hop is say 4-5 days and hops like galaxy can imaprt those grass-like flavours after a short time.. Thoughts?



Nah mate, totally fine. I (and may others) do it all the time.

I'm pretty heavy handed with my cube hops, and have had them sit for months with no issues at all. I make an imperial India Black Ale, which has about 300g of late hops (which gets distributed into the cubes - about 100g each), and it's bloody lovely, even after sitting in the cube for ages. Same goes for lighter beers.

If you sanitise your gear, and have sound brewing practices, your cube hopped beers will be just as good (with no grass flavours) as your others.

JD


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## laxation (17/8/17)

Just out of curiosity, any idea why that is?


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## wide eyed and legless (18/8/17)

I would like to contiue using the no chill, but I do notice the extra bitterness/harshness from the late addition, I have just bottled the last batch I made where I added the last hops after the steep directly into the fermenter with the cooled wort. I will be repeating this on my next 2 brews and seeing what the outcome is.
I am not influenced by any leaching into the hot wort from the plastic, just the taste and the fact that so many people who are far more knowledgable than us plebs advise on chilling the wort within 30 mins or so after the last addition. If I could find a solution it would save me the added work of dragging out hoses and immersion chiller, connecting it all up to the pump and a return to the water tank, not something I relish.


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## GalBrew (18/8/17)

Has anyone used lupulin powder in a cubed brew? I would be very interested to see if that could cut down on the extra bitterness while keeping maximum hop flavour.


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## wide eyed and legless (18/8/17)

Put an order in for the Cryo hops but the shipping was to much, the only way is to either wait till they get here or a bulk buy from a USA retailer, I reckon I can wait.
https://www.beeradvocate.com/articl...ill-a-new-oil-rich-powder-change-hoppy-beers/


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## Lionman (24/8/17)

GalBrew said:


> Has anyone used lupulin powder in a cubed brew? I would be very interested to see if that could cut down on the extra bitterness while keeping maximum hop flavour.



It is meant to be a bit smoother as there will be less astringency from the vegetative mass of the hops which are removed. Actual bitterness though is a product of AAs + Heat + Time though. Reduce one or more of these to reduce bitterness.

If you're after big flavour, low bitterness then do big cube addition after letting the wort cool to 80c in the kettle.

Lupulin and other hop concentrates will have different character to hop pellets, in much the same way hop pellets have a bit of a different character to hop flowers.



wide eyed and legless said:


> Put an order in for the Cryo hops but the shipping was to much, the only way is to either wait till they get here or a bulk buy from a USA retailer, I reckon I can wait.
> https://www.beeradvocate.com/articl...ill-a-new-oil-rich-powder-change-hoppy-beers/



You can get a pound of LupuLN2 Citra (450g) for $112 delivered on eBay.

This works to about the equivalent of about $12/100g of pellets assuming the powder is twice as strong (24%AA vs 12%AA).

Given I can get Citra pellets locally for about $8.60/100g (if buying 1lb at a time) it is quite a bit more expensive. Roughly 50% more.


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## Schikitar (20/10/17)

Hey y'all, I didn't want to start another cube thread so just tacking on here with a couple quick questions;

1. How important is it to squeeze and minimise the amount of air in the cube after dumping to it and getting that lid on? For example, I've read that you shouldn't put the lid on the kettle during/after the boil due to DMS, so is it safe to assume that if you have a lot of headspace in the cube and cap it that that could lead to off flavours? Or is it time dependent, not a problem if dumping to FV the next day for example but could be an issue for long term storage?

2. I read something the other day on here and cannot find it - it was a method for taking a 1-3 litres of wort from the kettle, chilling it and then next day running the clear wort off for boiling and doing late addition hops before dumping straight into the FV - basically as a work around for cube hopping and minmising the amount of trub/hop-mass going into the FV. Frustrating the bejesus out of me that I can't find it (am also juggling a few projects at the minute and have about a 1000 tabs open)! Can anyone enlighten me?

I'd like to try #2 but it kinda depends if leaving my cube short as mentioned in #1 is going to come at the price of off flavours..


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## Dae Tripper (20/10/17)

For the first question, 
It is of upmost importance to get that lid on and the air out at a respectable temperature ie greater than 80c, I aim higher to reduce infection chances. Otherwise you are giving everything at chance to infect your wort. DMS will be removed during the boil, so afterwards lids on. 
Don't play with the system, exploding cubes are not fun.

Number 2 - Just cube hop, so much less stuffing around. If your boiling hops in a tiny pot it affects its efficiency ie needing more hops for the same results. If your worried don't pour the last litre in.


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## Schikitar (20/10/17)

Thanks, I'm not having infection issues, I'm just more curious as to whether or not extra headspace in the cube is okay or not - could the air/condensation in the headspace potentially harm the wort? If it doesn't then I can get a cleaner transfer to my FV because I won't be pulling so much junk from the bottom of my kettle to fill the cube.. it's either that or I get a smaller cube I suppose..


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## wide eyed and legless (20/10/17)

Schikitar said:


> Hey y'all, I didn't want to start another cube thread so just tacking on here with a couple quick questions;
> 
> 1. How important is it to squeeze and minimise the amount of air in the cube after dumping to it and getting that lid on? For example, I've read that you shouldn't put the lid on the kettle during/after the boil due to DMS, so is it safe to assume that if you have a lot of headspace in the cube and cap it that that could lead to off flavours? Or is it time dependent, not a problem if dumping to FV the next day for example but could be an issue for long term storage?
> 
> ...


Your 2nd question it is what I have started doing and it works a treat, hops aren't compromised this is the thread you were looking for. I didn't know it existed until someone else posted it recently.
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/late-hopping-and-no-chilling-guide.55801/


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## Dae Tripper (20/10/17)

Schikitar said:


> Thanks, I'm not having infection issues, I'm just more curious as to whether or not extra headspace in the cube is okay or not - could the air/condensation in the headspace potentially harm the wort? If it doesn't then I can get a cleaner transfer to my FV because I won't be pulling so much junk from the bottom of my kettle to fill the cube.. it's either that or I get a smaller cube I suppose..



Not OK. You will get an infection if you don't get most of the air out because the wort it used to kill everything with heat, large airspace will give stuff a place to hide. Other options for less hops to fv is siphoning it out to the fv
Cube size is variable, see the pic


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## fungrel (20/10/17)

Rather than cube hopping, I've just been dropping them and doing a quick whirlpool before transferring as to not bring as much plant matter over into the cube. 

I don't like the flavour profile I get from too many hops going into the cube. I think it has to do with the plant matter sitting for an extended period of time in the cube. Although if you're dry hopping, you'll more than likely cover and subtle flavour differences. 

Could be wrong about the science, but I'm sure of my sensory eval.


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## fungrel (20/10/17)

fungrel said:


> Rather than cube hopping, I've just been dropping them in to the kettle and doing a quick whirlpool before transferring. I try to not bring as much plant matter over into the cube.
> 
> I don't like the flavour profile I get from too many hops going into the cube. I think it has to do with the plant matter sitting for an extended period of time in the cube. Although if you're dry hopping, you'll more than likely cover and subtle flavour differences.
> 
> Could be wrong about the science, but I'm sure of my sensory eval.


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## GalBrew (20/10/17)

What are people’s strategies for minimising hop sludge transfer into the fermenter from the cube in heavily cube hopped beers?


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## Danscraftbeer (20/10/17)

GalBrew said:


> What are people’s strategies for minimising hop sludge transfer into the fermenter from the cube in heavily cube hopped beers?


Sieve in a big funnel. Food handling gloves to squeeze out the juice (if its flowers)
The big funnel I have has a fine screen that fits in that's best for pellets.


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## Schikitar (25/10/17)

With regards to the Argon Method I have an 'outside the square' question, feel free to shut it down immediately, or discuss heatedly! 

What if you fermented out a beer (lets say an IPA) and you've dry hopped it but want some extra aroma/flavour prior to bottling. Could you draw off 3L of that cold crashed finished beer, whack it on the stove, add your priming sugar and then add what was the dry hops back in as flameout additions (via hop spider) to grab any last remaining oils from the hop mass, then pitch it back into the brew before bottling? Is that just going too far? Reuse Recycle? Discuss..


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## manticle (25/10/17)

You will change the profile of that drawn off beer, remove/reduce the alcohol (which is part of flavour and balance) and cook any yeast in suspension.


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## manticle (25/10/17)

Schikitar said:


> Thanks, I'm not having infection issues, I'm just more curious as to whether or not extra headspace in the cube is okay or not - could the air/condensation in the headspace potentially harm the wort? If it doesn't then I can get a cleaner transfer to my FV because I won't be pulling so much junk from the bottom of my kettle to fill the cube.. it's either that or I get a smaller cube I suppose..


Squeeze harder.

Unless you are filling a 25 L cube with 8 L, some strong knees should get most of it out. Cubes are flexy when hot.


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## Rocker1986 (26/10/17)

Schikitar said:


> With regards to the Argon Method I have an 'outside the square' question, feel free to shut it down immediately, or discuss heatedly!
> 
> What if you fermented out a beer (lets say an IPA) and you've dry hopped it but want some extra aroma/flavour prior to bottling. Could you draw off 3L of that cold crashed finished beer, whack it on the stove, add your priming sugar and then add what was the dry hops back in as flameout additions (via hop spider) to grab any last remaining oils from the hop mass, then pitch it back into the brew before bottling? Is that just going too far? Reuse Recycle? Discuss..


There probably aren't any oils left in the hop mass to be extracted anyway. You'd have better results simply making a hop tea with fresh hops in a few hundred mL of water and adding it at bottling time.


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## wide eyed and legless (26/10/17)

Schikitar said:


> With regards to the Argon Method I have an 'outside the square' question, feel free to shut it down immediately, or discuss heatedly!
> 
> What if you fermented out a beer (lets say an IPA) and you've dry hopped it but want some extra aroma/flavour prior to bottling. Could you draw off 3L of that cold crashed finished beer, whack it on the stove, add your priming sugar and then add what was the dry hops back in as flameout additions (via hop spider) to grab any last remaining oils from the hop mass, then pitch it back into the brew before bottling? Is that just going too far? Reuse Recycle? Discuss..


According to Dr Charlie Bamforth there are many commercial breweries who go through the whole process of making the beer to the finished product without using a single hop, then adding hop oil prior to packaging.


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## Schikitar (26/10/17)

Okay, well it was just a thought, I was wondering if dry hopping actually does a good job of hop oil extraction or not - anyone got any stats on that? What I might do is when I pull the dry hops I might see if I can make a worthwhile hop tea with clean water just to see if they have any more to give or not. I'm just being a hop tight-arse, haha!



manticle said:


> Squeeze harder.


Yeah but it's really hot and I need a third arm/hand to do the lid! Family units never about in my time of crisis, or maybe I should get a big F clamp! 



manticle said:


> You will change the profile of that drawn off beer, remove/reduce the alcohol (which is part of flavour and balance) and cook any yeast in suspension.


Yep, very good points!


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## Rocker1986 (26/10/17)

Considering the hops completely disintegrate when thrown into the beer as a dry hop I'd say it's a pretty good method of extracting oils and stuff from them.


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## wide eyed and legless (26/10/17)

I have posted this before in another thread, don't know which one, but some useful information on hopping and dry hopping.
http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/34093/Wolfe_thesis.pdf


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## manticle (26/10/17)

Schikitar said:


> Okay, well it was just a thought, I was wondering if dry hopping actually does a good job of hop oil extraction or not - anyone got any stats on that? What I might do is when I pull the dry hops I might see if I can make a worthwhile hop tea with clean water just to see if they have any more to give or not. I'm just being a hop tight-arse, haha!
> 
> 
> Yeah but it's really hot and I need a third arm/hand to do the lid! Family units never about in my time of crisis, or maybe I should get a big F clamp!



I squeeze between my knees with pants firmly on. Shorts ain't so good, bare ball brewing is asking for trouble. Another way is one knee pressing the upright cube against a wall.


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## Danscraftbeer (26/10/17)

Schikitar said:


> With regards to the Argon Method I have an 'outside the square' question, feel free to shut it down immediately, or discuss heatedly!
> 
> What if you fermented out a beer (lets say an IPA) and you've dry hopped it but want some extra aroma/flavour prior to bottling. Could you draw off 3L of that cold crashed finished beer, whack it on the stove, add your priming sugar and then add what was the dry hops back in as flameout additions (via hop spider) to grab any last remaining oils from the hop mass, then pitch it back into the brew before bottling? Is that just going too far? Reuse Recycle? Discuss..


Also when you heat steep hops over 70-80c? it will extract extra bitterness from the hops. I tried it once not with finished beer but with just enough water, priming sugar and new hop pellets. Because dry hop additions can be large it turned out far too bitter rather than getting hop aroma that I wanted. Pretty much spoiled what probably would have been a good beer if I didn't do the experiment. I've been frustrated with dry hopping not performing as good as I want especially using flowers there is a great percentage of the yummy oils stay trapped in the cones. Best efficiency for flavor and aroma I've found is Hop Stands. After flame out chill to ~70c add a load of hops and spin whirl with a drill and stainless steal T bar. Let sit for ~30 minutes at ~70c then chill down to pitch temp. Thats the best way I have found to get the most out of flowers especially because the whirl breaks the flowers apart releasing the yummy oils etc. Pellets don't need as much whilrling.


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## Rocker1986 (26/10/17)

Yeah for squeezing cubes I just put it up against a wall, then use a folded towel between my knee and the cube, leaving hands free to put the lid on. Easy peasy.


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (27/10/17)

Schikitar said:


> Hey y'all, I didn't want to start another cube thread so just tacking on here with a couple quick questions;
> 
> 1. How important is it to squeeze and minimise the amount of air in the cube after dumping to it and getting that lid on?



Very important. Headspace is a safe place for bugs to hide. Full contact between hot wort & cube is essential for pasteurising. Also reducing head space also reduces oxidation risk. But the risk of contamination is more critical than the oxidation risk.

I find it easiest, to match my final liquour to whatever my cube capacity is, so I plan my liquour ratios to result in 55L of finished beer, which fills my 2 25L cubes to capacity .



Schikitar said:


> 2. I read something the other day on here and cannot find it - it was a method for taking a 1-3 litres of wort from the kettle, chilling it and then next day running the clear wort off for boiling and doing late addition hops before dumping straight into the FV
> 
> I'd like to try #2 but it kinda depends if leaving my cube short as mentioned in #1 is going to come at the price of off flavours..



Its a bit like making a hop tea ? You dont need wort for that, unless you want to add IBU. Get 2-3L of water to the boil, let it cool to ~80C, and add your hops.Leave them steep for 5-10 minutes and pour into the FV at pitch time, or whenever you would normally dry hop.


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## Stouter (27/10/17)

I seem to be able to tilt my cube while filling so that the handle space gets filled, and i slowly tilt it back while still filling until complete. There's a little spillage, but nothing compared to when I tried the squeeze method. 60% of the time it works every time!


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## Rocker1986 (27/10/17)

TheSumOfAllBeers said:


> Very important. Headspace is a safe place for bugs to hide. Full contact between hot wort & cube is essential for pasteurising. Also reducing head space also reduces oxidation risk. But the risk of contamination is more critical than the oxidation risk.
> 
> I find it easiest, to match my final liquour to whatever my cube capacity is, so I plan my liquour ratios to result in 55L of finished beer, which fills my 2 25L cubes to capacity .
> 
> ...


I agree in terms of infection risk but unless I'm missing something, oxidation isn't an issue because it's pre fermentation.


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## Danscraftbeer (27/10/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> I agree in terms of infection risk but unless I'm missing something, oxidation isn't an issue because it's pre fermentation.


Not 100% sure on that. Oxygen can. or does degrade any consumable so I'd think it could degrade your wort pre ferment if left for long enough. Short term probably no problem. What I find with the cubing is if I get a small airbubble in the cube while hot it seems to get absorbed into the wort when it cools leaving no airbubble. 
Maybe too small to have any negative result but larger headspace would be something to worry about.


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## manticle (27/10/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> I agree in terms of infection risk but unless I'm missing something, oxidation isn't an issue because it's pre fermentation.




Oxidation is a risk pre, during and post. There is only one point during the process when oxygen is beneficial and that's during the aerobic cycle of the yeast, pretty much immediately upon inoculation.


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## Rocker1986 (27/10/17)

I always minimise the air in the cube too but good to know it's beneficial for more than just infection risk. Thanks for setting it straight. I've also noticed the small air bubbles seem to disappear when the wort cools.


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## TheSumOfAllBeers (27/10/17)

Rocker1986 said:


> I agree in terms of infection risk but unless I'm missing something, oxidation isn't an issue because it's pre fermentation.



The oxygen can react with the wort and spoil it in a variation of hot side aeration processes in s way that the yeast cannot clean it up

In practice o have never detected it. And I think you would need to do crazy thing to make it detectable, like have 10-20% of your cube headspace unpurged, and left that way for months


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