# Cider Tips From A Pro Cider Maker



## Thirsty Boy (9/5/09)

I was at a course recently and one of the attendees was Mel the cidermaker from Creatures. I want to make some cider, so I cornered her and asked questions for a while. Here is the stuff I managed to remember and write down.

Now I have never made cider, and I was asking from the point of view of someone who would be able to filter, keg and artificially carbonate any cider I made - so I may have misinterpreted things or not asked many of the right questions. But here it is for what its worth.

*What Apples / Juice should I use?*

She likes Pink ladies and Granny smith. Not necessarily what she uses at work, but readily available for the home cider maker. Pink ladies for nice delicate flavour and sugar content - Granny smith to give you acid. A tip to remember is that Granny smiths become less acidic over time after picking, so further from harvest time, you might need to increase the % of them you use.
*How do I process them?*

Use a home juicer if you are talking home quantities - apples are really quite hard to press effectively even in a commercial set-up
When you pick the apples and after you have cut them into chunks to put in the juicer - drop themn into a tub full of Sodium Metabisulphate solution. This will knock out the surface yeast on the apples, so you know you are only using the yeast you pitch (and hopefully no Brett) and it will also control the oxidation and thus browning of the apples and the juice. Some sodium met will carry over into the juice to provide continued protection till you pitch.
Colour in cider is almost exclusively controlled by the amount of oxidation you let happen. So controlling it dictates a pale light green cider vs a browner type cider.
*Fermentation??*

 Use a nice white wine yeast. Dont use EC118 (champagne) it will be harsh and nasty. She suspects the Wyeast cider varieties might be a "safe" choice for home use.
Ferment cool at 12-13
If it rings your bells, stirring up the yeast lees every day of two will give you that nice yeasty/bready/autolyic taste you get in whites and sparkling sometimes (yum)
*Malolactic Fermentation*

If your cider is too harsh in its acidity - try a malolactic fermentation which will change the acidity from tart and sharp due to malic acid to smoother and softer lactic acid.
There's a good chance that the malolactic bugs will also pump out some diacetyl and that will contribute a buttery taste and add a fullness and smoothness to the mouthfeel
*Add Tannins / Acid ??*

 If you need to. Have some wine tannins on hand just in case. Same with acid
*Backsweeten/Carbonation?*

 Backsweeten with juice not sugar. This also gives you an opportunity to add a little acid by using a more acidic juice.
Wasn't sure that trying to backsweeten AND carbonate at home was a good idea. Thought it might lead to dangerous bottle explosions.
My plan to filter - stabilise with sorbate - add juice to backsweeten - force carb in the keg - Seemed to be a workable solution though

And thats about all I can remember. As I said, I haven't made any cider - so anything that is misinformation, wrong, or controversial - is almost certainly due to this stuff being filtered through my brain rather than coming directly from Mel's mouth. She was amazingly knowledgeable and was really nice to let me pick her brains on this topic.

I hope any guys who are about to launch into this find this stuff helpful. One of these days I will try cider making and find out for myself.

Cheers

Thirsty

edit: to tidy up formatting and spelling


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## bum (9/5/09)

Thanks for posting that.

I'm planning an all juice cider and there's a couple of things there I'll add to my recipe/process. One question though - the suggested brew temp is a bit lower than the Wyeast info for their cider yeast, did you get the impression the temp or the yeast was more important? What I mean is it better to use a yeast that'll handle the low temps than ferment at the suggested Wyeast temp?


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## DJbrewer (9/5/09)

would the cooler temps lead to a crisper cider? hmmm.

maybe next time, when i do not have a deadline, i will let the cider ferment at the lowest that the Wyeast suggests is possible;
16 degC, for the Wyeast 4766, i think.

thanks for grabbing the info and posting!


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## Thirsty Boy (9/5/09)

hmmm - sorry about the confusion. The lower temps are her suggestion for using white wine yeast. She was only taking a stab at the appropriateness of the WYeast varieties. I think the idea is to avoid hot alcohols/fusels and keep the cider smooth and easy to drink.

Her approach to cider making was very much from her winemaker background - her opinion was that cider making shared far less with brewing than with winemaking and she approached it as such.

I'm sure there are plenty of winemakers on this site who could elaborate on the reasons why you might want to ferment a white wine yeast at a lower temperature.


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## manticle (9/5/09)

Stuff I've read about Breton ciders also suggests lower ferment temperatuires and longer ferment times.

I can't claim to know why but my guess is that it's vaguely similar to a lager. Cider throw off some funky smells and flavours when they ferment and are nicest when they are crisp, refreshing and clean so lower temeperatures for longer times presumably allows this.

Breton ciders use wild yeast so I'm assuming it's not just the yeast type as long as it actually works.

I'm still not convinced by the sodium met though. My very limited experience with letting sulphites anywhere near cider has always had less then desirable results. The one I'm maturing at the moment has been a lot less funky with no horrible sulphur odour and I used no potassium or sodium met.

Great post TB.


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## jivesucka (4/2/10)

how do i get a cider that isn't dry? take it out sooner?


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## Scruffy (4/2/10)

Ferment it out, checking the gravity - as a rule I stop sweetish cider at 1020 (you can always taste it...) - stop the ferment by dropping a couple of crushed campden tablets, leave it a couple of weeks, then bottle and mature.

I guess you're starting about 1060?

I'm going to leave the wording, as it's funny. But you know what I meant!


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## manticle (4/2/10)

I use lactose to prevent my ciders being bone dry. Boil up 5005, cool and add to the must (or whatever the cider equivalent is called). I don't like campden (sulphite) as mentioned above. I find the next day effects of drinking anything with sulphites to be unpleasant.


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## InCider (4/2/10)

I've used champagne yeast and wine yeast. Champers is my fave :blink: 

The champers takes some getting used to but gets rolled out every few house kegs. It's called _Belligerent Cider _at my house. Why? Quite strong! I am trying to make more body with it but so far no success. 

For the last champers yeast I used, It said to ferment hot (not sure exactly, but 17-23) and it went like a cracker. I have kept them lower before in lager temps and not found any case for or against high and low temps, and I've not been bothered by fusels at all. Maybe that's at much higher temps. 


Great info TB, I'll be taking a leaf from Mels book with the apples types.


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## bradsbrew (4/2/10)

InCider said:


> I've used champagne yeast and wine yeast. Champers is my fave :blink:
> 
> The champers takes some getting used to but gets rolled out every few house kegs. It's called _Belligerent Cider _at my house. Why? Quite strong! I am trying to make more body with it but so far no success.
> 
> ...




+1 for Inciders cider on the champers yeast. If I ever make a cider that is the benchmark flavour i will be trying for.

Cheers Brad


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## InCider (4/2/10)

bradsbrew said:


> +1 for Inciders cider on the champers yeast. If I ever make a cider that is the benchmark flavour i will be trying for.
> 
> Cheers Brad



Thanks Brad - Jayandcath said if I ever brought any near him ever again he'd never speak to me again. He was designated driver for the 5 hour trip to hennos...


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## manticle (4/2/10)

Hi Incider,

Can you give me any tips on how you make your ciders? Mine have been a mixture of store bought preservative free juice and a blend of apples juiced by me. I'm aiming for the next one to be entirely fresh apples juiced by me. I normally ferment with white wine yeast and add lactose, don't use sulphites and treat it like a lager (low long ferment, cold condition etc). They've turned out well but there's always room for improvement.

The main thing I'm after is apple flavour.


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## jayandcath (4/2/10)

Brother, all's good now. I have calmed after that trip and again would like to partake of some cider action. 
I would like to add a disclaimer for Inciders "Champers Cider", please be very careful, but its also very good for polishing Stainless. (Brings it up a treat)
Bulmers in definately my favourite though.
Jay



InCider said:


> Thanks Brad - Jayandcath said if I ever brought any near him ever again he'd never speak to me again. He was designated driver for the 5 hour trip to hennos...


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## InCider (4/2/10)

manticle said:


> Hi Incider,
> 
> Can you give me any tips on how you make your ciders? Mine have been a mixture of store bought preservative free juice and a blend of apples juiced by me. I'm aiming for the next one to be entirely fresh apples juiced by me. I normally ferment with white wine yeast and add lactose, don't use sulphites and treat it like a lager (low long ferment, cold condition etc). They've turned out well but there's always room for improvement.
> 
> The main thing I'm after is apple flavour.



Hey Manticle, I use apple & pear juices, apples and extract if I'm short of time. I use brown sugar too. Ferment high teens as I do ales, and hope I never have one still fermenting in a keg again! I add some corn syrup as required. Never do I cancel the fermentation or adjust the bite of the cider, nor do I add lactose. It has led to a taste for dry, bitter ciders. :icon_cheers: 

I used to hard carb, but now go for the soft carb unless I have guests who are used to commercial carbonation. 

Cheers,

InCider.


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## jayandcath (4/2/10)

InCider said:


> "Ferment high teens as I do ales"




What bloody ales, you never make beer you cheeky bastard.

Jay


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## InCider (4/2/10)

jayandcath said:


> What bloody ales, you never make beer you cheeky bastard.
> 
> Jay



My bad - I meant 'Nightingales' a gose-style cider. 

Cheers,

InCider.


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## jayandcath (4/2/10)

Incider get onto (not like that) Bulp, he is a master at "Soft Carbonation", fairly tricky too. But makes the world of difference.
 
Jay


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## InCider (4/2/10)

jayandcath said:


> Incider get onto (not like that) Bulp, he is a master at "Soft Carbonation", fairly tricky too. But makes the world of difference.
> 
> Jay



I remember the SC Hefe we had at his place with Franko, Bindi, Screwy et al. Nice. OT!!!


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## manticle (4/2/10)

InCider said:


> Hey Manticle, I use apple & pear juices, apples and extract if I'm short of time. I use brown sugar too. Ferment high teens as I do ales, and hope I never have one still fermenting in a keg again! I add some corn syrup as required. Never do I cancel the fermentation or adjust the bite of the cider, nor do I add lactose. It has led to a taste for dry, bitter ciders. :icon_cheers:
> 
> I used to hard carb, but now go for the soft carb unless I have guests who are used to commercial carbonation.
> 
> ...



Cheers mate


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## superdave (4/2/10)

Good timing with this thread. I'm about to make a cider so have now changed my apple from Sundowner to PL, already had GS down.


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## avaneyk (4/2/10)

InCider said:


> I used to hard carb, but now go for the soft carb unless I have guests who are used to commercial carbonation.



What do you mean by hard\soft caronation? Is soft carbonation simply less volumes CO2?

Cheers,
Andrew.


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## kieran (4/2/10)

With my juicer, 4 ~150g granny smith apples gives me approx 500mL juice. By my reckoning, I'd need about 120 apples.

that is a mad number of apples.. and at my local independent (not even iga) supermarket which has amazing fruit'n'veg sells grannies at $4.99 a kilo, that's about $90 worth of apples. 

It would be kind of cool to have a no-water, no-sugar added cider, but damn that is expensive!


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## manticle (4/2/10)

kieran said:


> With my juicer, 4 ~150g granny smith apples gives me approx 500mL juice. By my reckoning, I'd need about 120 apples.
> 
> that is a mad number of apples.. and at my local independent (not even iga) supermarket which has amazing fruit'n'veg sells grannies at $4.99 a kilo, that's about $90 worth of apples.
> 
> It would be kind of cool to have a no-water, no-sugar added cider, but damn that is expensive!



Lucky enough to have a fruit market near me that does various apples for around 1.50 - $2 a kilo.


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## bill_gill85 (5/2/10)

Does anyone have suggestions on how to avoid using sodium met?

I have some friends who are allergic to sulfur based preservatives, so I'd like to keep clear from sodium met as much as possible. I use Starsan for the majority of my brewing, but how well does it control wild yeast seeing as the foam is considered a yeast nutrient?


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## manticle (5/2/10)

billgill said:


> Does anyone have suggestions on how to avoid using sodium met?
> 
> I have some friends who are allergic to sulfur based preservatives, so I'd like to keep clear from sodium met as much as possible. I use Starsan for the majority of my brewing, but how well does it control wild yeast seeing as the foam is considered a yeast nutrient?



You can pasteurise the juice (bring above 72 degrees briefly). I've not done this but I've read it can affect the flavour.

When I make cider I chance it. I make sure the apples are clean, juice them up and add them into the fermenter. I allow a crust to form then rack off it (helps with clarification). My understanding is that this crust is the beginning of natural fermentation. Meanwhile I make a big starter with my yeast so it's ready to go (using some store bought juice and plenty of nutrient). After 24 - 48 hours I rack into a separate fermenter, leaving behind the crusties and add the lactose (boiled and cooled) and the yeast. My hope is that the wine yeast will dominate.

This has worked for me so far. I can't promise it's foolproof or the best method in the world but I can't stand that sulphite stuff. Ferment low, cold condition and fine and you should get nice clear, fresh tasting cider that emits little to no sulphur and doesn't need months to age.

The above is my experience only, based partly on what I've read about Breton ciders (clarification and slow cool fermentation).

The lack of sulphites may result in long term stability problems - I did notice the last bottle of the last batch I had was cloudy (still a great apple flavour) whereas all others were sparkling clear. It's ready sooner but like sulphite free wine it may need to be consumed young. I know which I'd prefer.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (5/2/10)

I've been using cheapest apple juice I can in anticipation of the apple harvest. Just the juice, champagne yeast and cool ale ferments to completion and beyond.

Currently Drinking cider has 700g frozen raspberries pureed and added at the very beginning.

After it went into the keg, it just gets treated like the ales in the kegerator. I think of it as champagne cider, but it is dangerously good.

I'm about to start playing with other yeasts; first up is a CraftBrewer German Wheat Yeast, fermented cold and other fruits; blueberries...


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## beerDingo (5/2/10)

If your using store bought apple juice, does it matter if it has been pasteurized or not?


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## manticle (5/2/10)

beerDingo said:


> If your using store bought apple juice, does it matter if it has been pasteurized or not?




Pretty certain it would have been somehow made suitable for longer term storage (probably through pasteurisation). I'm not 100% sure so don't quote me but unpasteurised cider has a short shelf life and bacterial poisoning can result from soft cider that isn't fresh. Soft cider is essentially juice and it will ferment itself if left untreated. You won't get apple yeasts in a bottle of store bought as far as I'm aware.

I was talking about juicing your own.


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## HoppingMad (5/2/10)

Very helpful Thirsty cheers. :icon_chickcheers: 

Interesting on the champagne yeast (leaving nasty flavours). Have heard that this yeast can leave you with a very dry cider so this might be where your cider expert is coming from. 

Hadn't thought of using white wine yeast. Have to give this a go. Only used Sweet Mead Yeast as it has been recommended in places, but my ciders have come out like Apple Mead. This could be the way to go instead.

Hopper.


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## kevin_smevin (5/2/10)

HoppingMad said:


> Very helpful Thirsty cheers. :icon_chickcheers:
> 
> Interesting on the champagne yeast (leaving nasty flavours). Have heard that this yeast can leave you with a very dry cider so this might be where your cider expert is coming from.
> 
> ...



How does apple mead differ in taste from a cider. I'm curious because i was thinking of using sweet mead yeast for a batch. Haven't done any cider making at all yet.

Cheers


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## Phoney (5/2/10)

Has anyone here made cider using store bought apple juice as well as juiced their own apples, and then been able to tell whether it is worth all of that extra effort?


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## drsmurto (5/2/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Has anyone here made cider using store bought apple juice as well as juiced their own apples, and then been able to tell whether it is worth all of that extra effort?



I've done both using the same yeast so can compare apple with apple......  

Its a lot more effort but you can blend a few varieties of apples which changes the end product which is what Thirsty pointed out in the OP.

I used (from memory) a 1:1:1 blend of fuji, sundowner( i think, or maybe it was one of the delicious family) and granny smith.

I tasted the juice of each before blending. The granny smith juice very tart as you would expect. the others were quite sweet. None had any real tannin content that you would find in a cider apple.

The result (using wyeast 4766) was a cider that (to my palate) was more complex. 

I've tried straight pink lady or other sweet, eating apples and nice but a tad one-dimensional.

Hoping to find some cider apples locally this year after my grafting of french cider varieties failed and repeat the experiment.

Juicing enough apples for a 20L batch would be painful.

I did 5L batches so juicing didn't cause me too much grief using this juicer - Link


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## Muggus (5/2/10)

DrSmurto said:


> I tasted the juice of each before blending. The granny smith juice very tart as you would expect. the others were quite sweet. None had any real tannin content that you would find in a cider apple.


Really need some bitter sort of apples to balance it out right?

I've been interested in doing a cider from scratch for a while, but always wondered where to find serious bitter/tannic apples. Would something like crab apple be acceptable?


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## drsmurto (5/2/10)

Muggus said:


> Really need some bitter sort of apples to balance it out right?
> 
> I've been interested in doing a cider from scratch for a while, but always wondered where to find serious bitter/tannic apples. Would something like crab apple be acceptable?



According to 'How to make Cider.com' - yes


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## manticle (5/2/10)

DrSmurto said:


> Juicing enough apples for a 20L batch would be painful.



Not really much more effort than hand cranking grain, mashing, boiling, chilling etc (presuming everything goes according to plan).


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## Airgead (5/2/10)

DrSmurto said:


> According to 'How to make Cider.com' - yes



I did a crab apple cider last year. There's a thread on it here somewhere. I'm too pissed to look it up though.

I'll do another this year. It was really good.

Cheers
Dave


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## under (17/2/10)

I've done Frankos cider a few times. Its bloody good, but I want just a little bit more sweetness to balance out the dryness at the end of fermentation.

Recipe -

12 Litres 100% Apple juice no added flavours or preservatives (Bought from Aldi)
8 Litres Apple & Pear juice no added flavours or preservatives (Woolworths)
250-300 grams LDME (light dried powdered malt)
3-4 Apples granny smiths or Pink ladys cut into quarters added to fermenter
Wyeast 4766 Cider Yeast (this is imperative)

Ferment for 8-12 days then chill for 2 weeks at 2-3 degrees or cold filter


Im thinking about what TB said about backsweetening ciders. But the case is, how much juice do I add to the keg before I transfer the fermented cider onto it?


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## HoppingMad (17/2/10)

yum yum yum said:


> How does apple mead differ in taste from a cider. I'm curious because i was thinking of using sweet mead yeast for a batch. Haven't done any cider making at all yet.
> 
> Cheers



An Apple Mead tends to have a stronger, more winelike taste that can border on being a distilled spirit in some drinks (a bit like apple schnapps).

I found using the sweet mead yeast turned my cider into 'Apple Mead' a bit . It wound up with quite a winelike flavour which you would associate with a mead style of drink. Initially this was very big, (but so was the alc/vol on my cider - around 8-9%) but smoothed off with cellaring. I used it as Ross was out of Wyeast Cider Yeast at the time and this was recommended to me by a fellow brewer. Going to try a white wine version as TB suggests and also give champagne yeast a try since so many home cider makers use it. Have heard that champagne yeast can come up very dry, so a lot of people 'cold crash' stopping ferment before it gets too low giving them some sugar left for flavour. Cold crashing is not something I'm all familar with and couldn't find a lot of info on it to do with Ciders.

Not really an expert by any means but my understanding is the closer you go to 1.000 with a cider, the dryer it winds up. You want some residual sugar left to make it sweet, which is why many I've found posting on cider forums talk about 1.003-1.008 as their ideal finishing range/FG.

One of the benefits of the Wyeast Sweet Mead yeast is that its supposed to leave some residual sweetness when it ferments. I agree this happened but it did wind up very mead-like.

Hopper


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