# Basics Of Making And Using A Yeast Starter



## Wolfy

*A yeast-Starter is a small volume of wort used to increase yeast health and to grow yeast cells before pitching.*
Please do not be put-off by the fact it took me 3 posts to explain the utterly simple procedure of making a yeast-starter (just read the bold bits and look at the pictures if you like). All it is is a small quantity of wort that is used to grow liquid yeast and increase the yeast health before pitching. If you can make beer you can make a starter, in some ways a starter is even easier than brewing good beer at home.

*You do NOT need to use a starter if you are using dry-yeast*, starters are only useful for liquid yeasts and then only if you need to increase the yeast health or cell count. If you have newly-manufactured packs of yeast, they should be good to pitch into 5US gallons of standard gravity wort, if you have more wort, higher gravity wort, if your yeast pack is more than a week or two old, or if you are growing yeast from a slant/slope or from bottle-harvested yeast, a starter can be very useful or even essential.

*The usual size for a (Ale) starter is 1L to 2L*.
If you are making a starter from a packet of freshly opened and recently manufactured pack of commercial liquid yeast the MrMalty calculator or the Wyeast version will give a very good indication of what is required.

*The gravity for a starter should be between 1.030 to 1.040*, if your yeast is old and tired a lower gravity can help, even if you are making a high-strength beer, the starter gravity should still be within this range.

*A starter should be made from malt* (or malt-extract) do not use sugar or other adjuncts, where possible keep the starter wort similar to that of the beer you will pitch the yeast into. Starters do not need to have hops added, you can add hops, or use pre-hopped wort, but it is not essential or even that useful.

Most often starters are made from DME.
*Mixing LDME at the rate of 100g per 1L water will give the required gravity.*






If you have it, add a pinch of yeast-nutrient or a pinch of old yeast (that will be boiled and turned into nutrients for your yeast):





Liquid malt extract, even out dated tins of hopped extract also makes a good starter, however you do need to learn how much to use:




(I find that about 2 heaped teaspoons is a good quantity to use)

If you brew all-grain, you can save the last runnings from the mash-tun, then boil them down in a saucepan to give the required gravity.
After cooling, let the break settle out and decant the clear wort into your starter container:





Or you can collect the residual wort (and hops and break material) from the bottom of the kettle after boil.
Let it sit for a while so the break and hop debris settle out and then decant the clear wort, before adjusting to the required gravity:


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## Wolfy

*The starter wort and container should be as sterile (or at least sanitized) as possible*. Ideally both the wort and container should be autoclaved, but in most cases boiling for at least 15mins is sufficient, if you are unable to autoclave or boil your starter-container sanitize it chemically as best you can, any bugs or infection in the starter will be propagated into your beer.

*Starter wort should be boiled for at least 15mins*, if possible you should do that inside the starter container. Otherwise, if possible boil the wort in a saucepan and add it to the container while still boiling hot, else if you use plastic containers, boil the wort and let it cool before tipping it into your starter container.

*Any container of an appropriate size that can be easily sealed and easily shaken or stirred can be used.*

Plastic PET soft-drink bottles make useful and cheap starter containers.
However, since they cannot be heat-sanitized, chemical sanitizers (bleach, StarSan, Idophor) must be used and starter wort needs to be boiled and then cooled in another container - while this works it is less than ideal.





Since glass jars and bottles can be heat treated (and even autoclaved) they make a much better starter container.
If you have an autoclave or pressure cooker big enough (I do not) the starter and container can both be sterilized.
Otherwise the wort can be boiled and then poured into the glass container. I soak the glass bottles shown below in a sink full of hot-tap water to raise their temp, this has allowed me to fill them directly with boiled wort without breaking them (this may or may not work for you, please do not do anything dangerous or silly or hurt yourself or others). 
Adding the wort to the container while it is still boiling helps to ensure that everything is sanitized well.





Plastic PET bottles, glass bottles and jars can easily be capped and shaken to help improve the yeast health and growth. By using an over-lay of cling wrap (as shown in the pictures above) you can open the bottle to release the CO2 build-up, but also seal the bottle to shake vigorously without exposing the starter to risks of contamination.

However, the best starter containers are those made from borosilicate/lab glass. These can be directly heated, boiling and sterilizing the wort and the container at the same time, this greatly reduces the chance of infection and means you do not need to rely on chemical sanitizers:




Lab flasks with flat-bottoms also allow for the use of a stir-plate which can also help increase yeast cell growth.

Starter-containers do not need an airlock, cling-wrap, aluminum foil or a lid works well, as long as bugs and contaminants cannot get into the starter that is what matters most.


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## Wolfy

*The starter should be kept at comfortable room temperature (low/mid 20degC)* if you are comfortable the yeast will be comfortable, higher temps will cause the yeast to grow more quickly, but also increase the risk of mutations, colder temps are not as useful for good yeast growth since it slows their metabolism.

*The starter should be aerated (shaken or stirred) on a regular (ideally constant) basis*, this provides the yeast oxygen required for growth and helps degas CO2 which can inhibit growth and health:




Yeast growing on my DIY stir-plate, it is usually covered with a tea-towel so that the cat does not find it so interesting and to keep out any dust or airborne contaminants.
If you do not have a stir-plate try to put your starter in a prominent location where you will remember to shake it on a regular basis, you will get more yeast growth and better yeast health if you shake the starter very frequently.

*Making a starter is all about growing a quantity of healthy yeast ready to pitch into your beer*. The conditions - in particular temperature, wort and aeration - are designed for good healthy yeast growth, NOT for making good tasting beer, which would often be done at lower temperatures and not aerated.

*Yeast cell growth should be completed after about 24-36 hours*, the starter does not need to ferment out fully before you can pitch the yeast, you are just looking to grow a quantity of healthy yeast.

Once the starter is complete, you can either:
*Pitch the yeast at high krusen*, since the yeast is most active at this time, some people like to pitch it into their beer. This means that the entire starter is pitched into your beer, and the starter wort should be similar to the beer-wort or else the yeast might need to acclimatise.
... or ...
*Wait for the starter to ferment out fully, let the yeast settle, decant the spent starter beer and pitch only the yeast*. This pitching method means you can pitch only the yeast, minimizing any off-flavours in your beer that may have been introduced by the starter. Allowing the yeast to fully ferment the starter and then settle (often with refrigeration) adds more time to the starter process, but it also allows the yeast to build up reserves so that they can acclimatize quickly and easily when pitched.


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## Nevalicious

Do you realise just how many old and new brewers out there this is going to help Wolfy. Bloody well done mate. I've always found your posts on yeast related stuff (of which there is heaps) to be so helpful...

Awesome work mate  

Nev


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## ianh

Thanks Wolfy great tutorial, nice collection of yeasts you have.

cheers

Ian


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## petesbrew

Nice one wolfy.


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## bignath

Wolfy, i am just about to start my first foray into using liquid yeasts and i've been trying to get my head around all this stuff recently.

I brilliantly written article, and it couldn't have been timed better for me!

Cheers mate,

Nath


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## keifer33

Good stuff Wolfy will definetly be using this regularly as I'm only just moving into the world of starters.


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## argon

ahem... yeast sub-forum... ahem h34r: 

Nice work Wolfy good info as always


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## bignath

argon said:


> ahem... yeast sub-forum... ahem h34r:




+1 Top Idea!

(we all know lots of posters have mentioned this before, particularly in things like "how would you improve AHB threads" and similar. would love it to come to fruition.)


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## outbreak

These pictorial how-to's are great. Thanks!


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## proudscum

made a quick climate control box for my yeast as its a bit cool in my lab area(has a laugh to himself)Used a 55lt esky temp control for heating and an old brew pad.Sat on a nice cosy 
20 oC and both flasks are ready to go through the settling period before being used on Friday and Saturday.

Quick simple and using up things sitting around not being used.


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## manticle

Wolfy said:


> *Making a starter is all about growing a quantity of healthy yeast ready to pitch into your beer*. The conditions - in particular temperature, wort and aeration - are designed for good healthy yeast growth, NOT for making good tasting beer, which would often be done at lower temperatures and not aerated.
> 
> ..........
> 
> 
> Once the starter is complete, you can either:
> *Pitch the yeast at high krusen*, since the yeast is most active at this time, some people like to pitch it into their beer. This means that the entire starter is pitched into your beer, and the starter wort should be similar to the beer-wort or else the yeast might need to acclimatise.
> ... or ...
> *Wait for the starter to ferment out fully, let the yeast settle, decant the spent starter beer and pitch only the yeast*. This pitching method means you can pitch only the yeast, minimizing any off-flavours in your beer that may have been introduced by the starter. Allowing the yeast to fully ferment the starter and then settle (often with refrigeration) adds more time to the starter process, but it also allows the yeast to build up reserves so that they can acclimatize quickly and easily when pitched.



Wolfy - great post and pictures.

One question though: If pitching the entire active starter in as I usually do, the first point about conditions not being needed to make good beer (temp aeration etc) is less so as far as I understand. I believe if you pitch 2 litres of oxidised estery beer into your wort, those flavours can transfer to the final product.

I treat my starters with vigorous shaking until krausen appears, then leave it alone at roughly ferment temps.


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## corcatraz

Good shit wolfy. Appreciate this!

p.s. I think the worcestershire sauce is ready for the bin :icon_cheers:


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## HeavyNova

Thanks for the info and pics Wolfy - also very good timing for me as I'm thinking about getting into this soon too.

Interested in Manticle's question too...


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## MeLoveBeer

Wolfy said:


> If you brew all-grain, you can save the last runnings from the mash-tun, then boil them down in a saucepan to give the required gravity.



Have been toying with this idea for a while, but have been worried about the ph of the last runnings and its effects on the yeast; what are your thoughts?

p.s. Solid work putting this together :icon_cheers:


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## manticle

Alternatively just take a litre or two from the wort once you've finished draining the tun.

Can dilute to 1035-1040 if it's a big beer although I rarely bother.


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## felten

> One question though: If pitching the entire active starter in as I usually do, the first point about conditions not being needed to make good beer (temp aeration etc) is less so as far as I understand. I believe if you pitch 2 litres of oxidised estery beer into your wort, those flavours can transfer to the final product.



I'd say there's definitely a difference between the two.

When building up the numbers you want the agitation and oxygen exchange to feed the yeast, and you want to let it run for 24-36hr so that after the yeast are done with their growth they have time to build up their glycogen reserves, of course though this usually doesn't result in a tasty beverage but that's not the point.

If you are just getting the yeast visibly active before pitching then you want to keep the temperature and aeration the same as you would for the main ferment so you don't build up those off flavours (or temperature shock the yeast when pitching), but you also won't get near the same amount of yeast growth as a fully aerated/fermented starter.

I know you separated them out already Wolfy, but it is a different beast imo.


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## adryargument

Great thread, however the iamge of your flask on a stove with alfoil brings bad memories. Did the same thing the other week and ended up with 120 degree water all over the ceiling and floor. Nasty burn to! Needs a warning!


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## Dave70

Great stuff mate.

I'm a visual learner, so the pics really help.

I think specific 'how to' posts like this should be stickied - or at least _sub stickied_ somewhere. 

Can we expect ' Trouble shooting tips for a non bubbling airlock' thread any time soon? That issue just gets swept under the carpet to often for my liking..


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## Wolfy

Thanks for the replies guys, its good to know it will be useful, I was not sure how many people are already doing this stuff and how many are still learning about it all. 



argon said:


> ahem... yeast sub-forum... ahem h34r:


That's been said a few times before, but I'm not sure the powers-that-be like the idea so we'll just continue like this. 


proudscum said:


> made a quick climate control box for my yeast as its a bit cool in my lab area(has a laugh to himself)Used a 55lt esky temp control for heating and an old brew pad.Sat on a nice cosy
> 20 oC and both flasks are ready to go through the settling period before being used on Friday and Saturday.


That's a really good idea, I just keep my starter in the lounge room where it we usually have the aircond or heater on to keep it about low/mid 20s.


manticle said:


> One question though: If pitching the entire active starter in as I usually do, the first point about conditions not being needed to make good beer (temp aeration etc) is less so as far as I understand. I believe if you pitch 2 litres of oxidised estery beer into your wort, those flavours can transfer to the final product.
> 
> I treat my starters with vigorous shaking until krausen appears, then leave it alone at roughly ferment temps.


*manticle * when I was suggesting that the starter and beer wort should be the same, I was not thinking so much about the flavours in the beer, but what happens to the yeast in that situation.

From what I understand the yeast 'adapt' to the particular wort they are in, they condition themselves to operate best in those conditions, hence, if you take the yeast when it is most active and pitch it into identical wort, they continue as they are and everything is good. However if you pitch the yeast into different wort (say you brew AG but made a starter from LDME for example) the yeast get 'shocked' by the new conditions and have to spend time and energy changing and adapting to the new situation, this is not good for them or your ferment (think of the extreme example of growing bugs in fresh-water and then throwing them directly into sea-water, you'd not expect them to adapt to easily).

On the other hand, by letting the yeast fully ferment out the starter and then settle, they can build up their sterol/glycogen reserves (almost like a dormancy phase), hence when you pitch them into the 'different' wort they wake up, use up those stored-reserves which help them to adapt to the 'new' conditions, and away they go. Yeast pitched when it is most active does not have those reserves built-up so they have a more difficult time adapting.

While I understand the logic behind leaving the starter ferment out - without shaking - after you see yeast activity, the 'Yeast' book and the Wyeast link above, both detail that the constant stirring or shaking is not just about oxygenation, its also about mixing the yeast into the starter and de-gassing CO2 all of which help grow more healthy yeast. So while not shaking the fermenting starter would reduce oxygen induced off-flavours, it may also result in less healthy and happy yeast than could have been made with more constant agitation. Pitching the entire starter is much easier and can be done more quickly, so in those situations using your approach would be a logical compromise.


MeLoveBeer said:


> Have been toying with this idea for a while, but have been worried about the ph of the last runnings and its effects on the yeast; what are your thoughts?


I did not think it would have a significant effect, but that may have just me being lazy rather than testing it, maybe its something you should do. 


adryargument said:


> Great thread, however the iamge of your flask on a stove with alfoil brings bad memories. Did the same thing the other week and ended up with 120 degree water all over the ceiling and floor. Nasty burn to! Needs a warning!


Good point, I don't sit the foil tightly on the lids and always make sure the gas and wort can escape if it needs to - something which it does all too often and then I spend 1/2 hour cleaning up the stove top from burnt-sticky-starter-wort.


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## manticle

Wolfy said:


> *manticle *when I was suggesting that the starter and beer wort should be the same, I was not thinking so much about the flavours in the beer, but what happens to the yeast in that situation.
> 
> From what I understand the yeast 'adapt' to the particular wort they are in, they condition themselves to operate best in those conditions, hence, if you take the yeast when it is most active and pitch it into identical wort, they continue as they are and everything is good. However if you pitch the yeast into different wort (say you brew AG but made a starter from LDME for example) the yeast get 'shocked' by the new conditions and have to spend time and energy changing and adapting to the new situation, this is not good for them or your ferment (think of the extreme example of growing bugs in fresh-water and then throwing them directly into sea-water, you'd not expect them to adapt to easily).
> 
> On the other hand, by letting the yeast fully ferment out the starter and then settle, they can build up their sterol/glycogen reserves (almost like a dormancy phase), hence when you pitch them into the 'different' wort they wake up, use up those stored-reserves which help them to adapt to the 'new' conditions, and away they go. Yeast pitched when it is most active does not have those reserves built-up so they have a more difficult time adapting.
> 
> While I understand the logic behind leaving the starter ferment out - without shaking - after you see yeast activity, the 'Yeast' book and the Wyeast link above, both detail that the constant stirring or shaking is not just about oxygenation, its also about mixing the yeast into the starter and de-gassing CO2 all of which help grow more healthy yeast. So while not shaking the fermenting starter would reduce oxygen induced off-flavours, it may also result in less healthy and happy yeast than could have been made with more constant agitation. Pitching the entire starter is much easier and can be done more quickly, so in those situations using your approach would be a logical compromise.



I oxygenate frequently until krausen appears to help with growth but don't let it ferment out. I pitch active starters. I think it's worth pointing out that IF you intend to pitch the whole starter, that you should treat it more gently once visible signs of fermentation appear orrisk adding oxidised, estery beer to the main product (wherever the starter wort comes from).

I always use the same wort and understand that concept completely.

Hopefully that's clear. Apart from that distinction (and it's the distinction between active starters and stepping up which can be combined as you suggest), I think the guide is really well explained and illustrated. Very useful stuff.


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## haysie

manticle said:


> I pitch active starters.



Do you reckon it makes a difference Mants? I pitch healthy 2-5 day old chilled yeast, it always goes off like a rocket within hours.

edit, I remember Screwy having a few problems years ago with disapointing beers. Starters and the opinion/consensus at the time was the oxgenated content of the active starter.


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## manticle

I think the healthy bit is the key.

Bear in mind this is my take, not brewing science so I could be wrong but active starters to me are as healthy as top cropped yeast. If your chilled stuff is healthy and fresh then there's probably not much difference. If stepping up from older yeast or recultured yeast as I often do then I need to make the yeast happy and healthy.

I have noticed a difference between making active starters and ptching a smack pack directly when fresh.

It's not a crazy difference though so I only do it if I'm growing the yeast numbers first. A050 wort gets a smack pack straight in. By 'always' I mean when I make and use a starter, I always pitch it when active.


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## manticle

manticle said:


> A050 wort gets a smack pack straight in. By 'always' I mean when I make and use a starter, I always pitch it when active.



And by 'A50' I mean 'a 1050'. Too late to edit.


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## Logman

Thanks for these great yeast posts Wolfy, noobs paradise! Just getting into liquid yeast and have been reading the various posts on the subject re stir plates etc. 

A potentially stupid question but beginners gotta run the risk of that or die wonderin'  Regarding preparing the wort when it's necessary to step up the starter size - do you prepare both flasks on the same day and put a rubber stopper (or foil top) on the larger starter and then just pitch the smaller one in at high krausen, or does the second wort need to be boiled and sterilized etc when you are about to transfer? 

I would be doing it in my fermenting fridge with tempmate so the flasks would both be sitting in there.


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## adz1179

so im going to have a go at making a starter next weekend out of reclaimed 3068 yeast for a dunkel im planning. After reading a few threads i reckon i have the hang of it, let me know if you see any problems with the proposed method.

after racking my last hefeweizen, i left the slurry behind in the fermenter, added a liter or so of distilled water, stirred it up and collected two jars 1/3 full each. topped up with distilled water and shook a few times, now have 2 of these:





will replace the water a few more times until its cleaner, pour off the top liquid and split into 125ml containers for future use.

1. brew the dunkel as per normal and collect the last 1-2lts of wort trub and get this to 1.035 - 1.040. boil this for 15 mins. 
2. No chill the dunkel for 24hours, at the same time, pitch 125ml of the yeast i have stored into the saved (boiled) wort and shake every few hours
3. put this in the fermenting fridge at 19deg (planned brew temp).
4. After 24 hours (give or take), add the wort to the fermenter, drain the starter (or pitch it all in?) and away we go. 

sound about right?


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## Wolfy

adz1179 said:


> after racking my last hefeweizen, i left the slurry behind in the fermenter, added a liter or so of distilled water, stirred it up and collected two jars 1/3 full each.
> ...
> sound about right?


There is nothing 'wrong' with what you suggested, however, one of the main benefits of harvesting yeast from a previous batch is that you should have more than enough yeast cells to pitch directly into your next beer - which means a starter is not necessary. In theory your 125ml yeast slurry should have at least 300 billion yeast cells, if that is not enough to direct-pitch use the other jar of yeast you collected.


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## elollerenshaw

Have read this thread and others on yeast starters with interest.

What would be a typical pitch rate for an extract ale brew? (million cells/ml)
Does it really matter?
My basic understanding is that more yeast is better than less. Can you put too much yeast in?


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## adz1179

Wolfy said:


> There is nothing 'wrong' with what you suggested, however, one of the main benefits of harvesting yeast from a previous batch is that you should have more than enough yeast cells to pitch directly into your next beer - which means a starter is not necessary. In theory your 125ml yeast slurry should have at least 300 billion yeast cells, if that is not enough to direct-pitch use the other jar of yeast you collected.



Thanks Wolfy. Will it last in its current form till next weekend? Just keep changing the water, get out 125ml and pitch straight in?

With the leftovers that I store, and plan to use in a month or 2's time, will they need a starter?


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## davo4772

elollerenshaw said:


> Have read this thread and others on yeast starters with interest.
> 
> What would be a typical pitch rate for an extract ale brew? (million cells/ml)
> Does it really matter?
> My basic understanding is that more yeast is better than less. Can you put too much yeast in?




Extract, all grain. Doesn't matter where the wort comes from the pitching rate is the same. According to Mr Malty you need 220 billion cells. The number of cells will change according to the original gravity of the wort. Higher gravity means more yeast cells required. Also temperature of fermentation affects the number of cells required. Generally the lower the fermentation temperature, more yeast cells required. 

Pitching rates matter. My understanding is you need some yeast growth to get desirable flavours into your beer. Too much yeast and there is little growth which will affect flavour.

I suggest you listen to the Brew Strong podcasts Yeast Starters and Repitching yeast which will cover what you need to know.
Lots of pointless banter on these podcasts but thats what the fast forward button is for.


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## Wolfy

adz1179 said:


> Thanks Wolfy. Will it last in its current form till next weekend? Just keep changing the water, get out 125ml and pitch straight in?
> 
> With the leftovers that I store, and plan to use in a month or 2's time, will they need a starter?


Stored slurry should be fine for 1 week, and up to 2 at a stretch - after that it will be much less viable.
Once it's been washed clean, just store it like it is, each time you wash it/change the water/etc you increase the chance of introducing infections/bugs/etc.

After a month or two you'll need to make a starter, because a large portion of the yeast will have died.


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## lukasfab

ok so from what I have read in the last few post is that reclaimed yeast should be all good to pitch direct into the next brew?

pic shows what i have from last weekend


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## Wolfy

lukasfab said:


> ok so from what I have read in the last few post is that reclaimed yeast should be all good to pitch direct into the next brew?
> 
> pic shows what i have from last weekend


Yes, but don't leave it stored for too long before repitching.


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## lukasfab

cheers Wolfy

do you taste test the wort on top or the yeast just to make sure its all good
and obviously you pour out the wort and pitch just the yeast?

cheers


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## Wolfy

lukasfab said:


> do you taste test the wort on top or the yeast just to make sure its all good
> and obviously you pour out the wort and pitch just the yeast?


With the concentration of yeast in the jar, I can't imagine the beer ontop would taste good. 
If your previous beer was good, and sanitation and control processes adequate there is no reason to think the yeast has 'gone off' in the short time since you collected it.
But yes, I just decant the spent beer and pitch the yeast.


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## [email protected]

lukasfab said:


> cheers Wolfy
> 
> do you taste test the wort on top or the yeast just to make sure its all good  Why not ? good way to get a better idea about yeast health is to taste everthing
> and obviously you pour out the wort and pitch just the yeast? YES
> 
> cheers


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## Karhunkynsi

3 questions.

What is "Pitch"

What is "Krausen"

And how much of this liquid yeast would you use in a 23 litre fermenter.


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## Phoney

Karhunkynsi said:


> 3 questions.
> 
> What is "Pitch"
> 
> What is "Krausen"
> 
> And how much of this liquid yeast would you use in a 23 litre fermenter.



Pitch is chunking the yeast into the fermenter. As in throw, cast, toss

Krausen is the fluffy brown goo that floats on top of your wort while it's fermenting.

Depends on quite a few factors. Beersmith has a yeast starter calculator and I believe there are a few others around on the web, but I generally make a 1L starter for a 23L ale.


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## MaltyHops

Wolfy said:


> Yes, but don't leave it stored for too long before repitching.


Gday Wolfy,

With a jar containing a large amount of yeast like lukas' that has
been stored for a while - lets say 10% of the yeast might still be
viable - then chucking all the yeast in the jar into a starter/stirplate
would probably mean a quick ramp-up to creating a new starter?

How would the other 90% of dead yeast affect the starter or
resultant brew though? Just more nutrient for the other growing
yeast? Off flavours?

Cheers.


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## mr_wibble

phoneyhuh said:


> [...]
> Depends on quite a few factors. Beersmith has a yeast starter calculator and I believe there are a few others around on the web, but I generally make a 1L starter for a 23L ale.



I don't understand this "1L" starter notation, could you explain it please?

I assume that it implies a culture of yeast continually grown in a set of standardised malt-extract concentrations until the volume of water in the concentration is 1 litre. 

But you can't just dump your yeast packet into 1 litre of water with XXX grams of Dried Malt Extract (DME) right? 
There's steps involved over several days?

OK, this: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html says add 1/2 cup of DME to 460ml of water. And after fermentation is done, you can either pitch that, or add another 460ml of this concentration DME+water. So for a 1 Litre starter, you'd probably want to start making your starter a 3-4 days before?

thanks,
-kt


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## Phoney

Sure. I mix 100g of LDME with 1L of water, boil it in a flask for 10 mins with a 1/2tsp of yeast nutrient. Cool it down, add in my little bit of yeast that has been split off from a wyeast smack pack, let it ferment out for a few days, chill in the fridge for at least 24 hours, then when im ready to brew I pour off the top leaving just the little cake behind, let it warm up and then swirl it around and pitch that. Obviously I taste the starter before I start brewing so that if it's gone to poo I can postpone my brewing day until I have a healthy starter.

Yes, I could start with 50g & 500mL and step it up after a few days but I dont really see the point. If I make a 2L lager starter I step it up from 1L. Others may disagree with my method I've been doing it this way for a few years now and never had an infection or over-pitched / under-pitched problems. *shrugs*


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## Wolfy

Mr Wibble said:


> I don't understand this "1L" starter notation, could you explain it please?
> 
> I assume that it implies a culture of yeast continually grown in a set of standardised malt-extract concentrations until the volume of water in the concentration is 1 litre.
> 
> But you can't just dump your yeast packet into 1 litre of water with XXX grams of Dried Malt Extract (DME) right?
> There's steps involved over several days?
> 
> OK, this: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html says add 1/2 cup of DME to 460ml of water. And after fermentation is done, you can either pitch that, or add another 460ml of this concentration DME+water. So for a 1 Litre starter, you'd probably want to start making your starter a 3-4 days before?


As from the first post, in bold:
*The usual size for a (Ale) starter is 1L to 2L.

The gravity for a starter should be between 1.030 to 1.040

A starter should be made from malt (or malt-extract)

Most often starters are made from DME.
Mixing LDME at the rate of 100g per 1L water will give the required gravity.*

So a 1L starter is simply 1 liter of wort with a gravity between 1.030-1.040, yeast is pitched into it and a time later (usually 24h) the yeast has grown and can be stepped-up further or used directly. Starters need to be prepared a few days before you plan to pitch the yeast, longer if you will step them.


----------



## Mardoo

OK, a couple starter questions from a, um, starter beginner.

1) When doing a stepped starter should nutrient be added at each step? Seems no from some things I've read in *Yeast* and online but I'm unsure.

2) Are people adding nutrient when building the starter AND when finally pitching into the wort for the full fermentation?

3) Anyone have experience with starters for mead? Seems like it would be the same sort of process (starter wort composition same as final wort and SG between .030 and .040 etc...) but I'm hoping someone's already walked that path and can give me some hints.

Superior and delightful thank you's all around!


----------



## Wolfy

When making starters it's especially important to ensure the yeast has all its nutritional needs met, so it's a good idea to add yeast-nutrient at each step, and when it's pitched into the wort at the end.


----------



## DU99

Nice post Wolfy.. :icon_cheers:


----------



## KingKong

This post just answered my question regarding the difference in methods re pouring off the starter wort and pitching just the slurry -vs- pitching the entire starter.

I think I would prefer to pitch the slurry after refrigeration. I wont have to time everything as precisely this way.

Thanks for the great post. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Wolfy

KingKong said:


> This post just answered my question regarding the difference in methods re pouring off the starter wort and pitching just the slurry -vs- pitching the entire starter.
> 
> I think I would prefer to pitch the slurry after refrigeration. I wont have to time everything as precisely this way.


Good to hear it was useful. 

Given that quick temperature changes (chilling the yeast in the fridge) can possibly cause mutation and issues with the yeast, I generally try not to refrigerate starters if I can help it, most will settle-out given a little time without having to put them in the fridge.


----------



## Spiesy

Quick question... 

I made my first starter yesterday, 200g LDME to make a 2L starter, pinch of Wyeast yeast nutrient thrown in for good measure.

Dropped in Wyeast Budvar, from 4th December 2012 and activator pack... viability of around 34% from memory.

It has now been sitting on the stir plate, with a small-moderate vortex, for just under 24-hours. Ambient temperature is probably low 20's.

There is no krausen at all, zero.

Should there be?


----------



## Yob

Yes... no... maybe... not always... Sometimes.. Depends (ed) usually toward the end in my experience... patience 

Has the wort changed colour? when you are getting growth the wort will lighten.


----------



## Spiesy

I don't believe it has changed colour, Yob.

Also, other tidbits of info... starter was boiler for 15mins, shit went everywhere - what a mess! It's in a 2l Schott Duran Erlenmeyer flask, aluminium foil covering... vortex is around an inch down, not massive, but I'm worried about throwing the stir bar.


----------



## Yob

vortex does not need to be huge, just has to turn the surface liquid over, do you have a hydrometer? check the gravity, if it's gone down then they are active yeah?

you can always turn it off for an hour or so and see if it starts to form a krausen, but personally I'd just let it go..

you say the viability was down, If that low I would have been very tempted to step it up from a smaller starter to begin with... whats done is done though.. give it another day and if it hasnt fired, ditch it.

:icon_cheers:


----------



## Spiesy

thanks mate. It was actually surprising to learn that I was down to just 1/3 viability after not quite 3-months.


----------



## JDW81

Yob said:


> you can always turn it off for an hour or so and see if it starts to form a krausen


Funny, I hear all this talk of starters throwing krausen and I've never had it happen. Been making starters for years and all I ever see is heaps of CO2 being thrown off.


----------



## felten

Shine a torch into the liquid, see if there are any bubbles there that would denote activity.


----------



## Spiesy

felten said:


> Shine a torch into the liquid, see if there are any bubbles there that would denote activity.


will try when I get home.


----------



## jonw

Spiesy,

Did you smack the pack before pitching to the starter, and if so, did it swell?


----------



## Spiesy

jonw said:


> Spiesy,
> 
> Did you smack the pack before pitching to the starter, and if so, did it swell?


I did, it didn't swell, and I didn't want to leave it outside of the fridge much longer than a day... so dropped her in the starter.

Got home tonight and there's a small krausen underway, with lots of bubbly, CO2 goodness rising from the bottom... will give it another 12-hours before chilling.


----------



## Spiesy

not sure how much yeast should be forming on the bottom of the flask after chilling, doesn't look like heaps... although, there's not much in those packs to start with - according to calculations I would have doubled the yeast population... perhaps I have, the bottom of the 2l flask is quite big, but I reckon there's only 1cm or so there...


----------



## Spiesy

well, guess I just have to throw what I have in...


----------



## Yob

Your not tempted to run it again?

Ed: not sure I'd be pitching yeast that hadn't displayed behavior I was expecting..


----------



## felten

It's hard to gauge how effective the starter has been by eyeballing the bottom of the flask. You just have to trust the yeast calculator. And adjust next time if results aren't as expected.


----------



## djar007

great tutorial. thanks wolfy.


----------



## Mardoo

I'll add my thanks too Wolfy. I've been using starters for the last few months after learning how here and it totally rocks!!! Great fermentations, real solid. Thanks! As someone who looked this over for the first time a few months ago, I highly recommend getting into starters for anyone looking this over for the first time. As they say, temperature control and proper pitch!


----------



## Cocko

Another big thanks to Wolfy and other contributors to this thread, a great guide. - Wasted thanks probably, assuming he is no longer around but hoping he is well!

Anyway, I am heading in to 'stirplate land', as I have only made a few starters in the past with the old, hand spin method, I have a pretty simple question, if someone can help?

How long do I run the stirplate for? First 24 hours? Does Krausen form and you turn off? 48 hours?

Any tips?


BTW: First mission, I wanna try and re-coop a 1272 smack pack I never used... possibly 12 months old.


----------



## djar007

I do mine the day before. With a good vortex it doesnt form a Krausen but if I seal it the cap is blown clean off it. So I know it is active.I opt for the tin foil to cover it. Have been saving some wort from older batches and using it for my starters. Seems to get going a lot quicker than using LME. I usually start it in the morning before I brew with one litre. Add another litre in the evening and remainder of what beersmith recommends for my starter size next morning. I like the process so I do it. And my beer seems to be attenuating nicely with the yeast behaving well and not throwing anything too awful back at me or stalling.


----------



## Cocko

Thanks djar,

So, about 24 hours or more so the whole time running the stir plate?

Do you No-Chill adding another 24 hours until pitching?

Cheers


----------



## djar007

I dont no chill. Or more aptly. I chill. I usually brew in the morning and pitch when I finish at around mid afternoon. Been getting a decent Krausen that evening. I know others ramp up starters more slowly but I find my method works ok for me.


----------



## Cocko

Sorry, so running the stir plate? The whole time the starter is on the go?

Cheers again.


----------



## djar007

Yep. High vortex , running the whole time. Covered with foil in erlenmeyer flask.


----------



## Yob

Cocko, I took a bit of what I would call healthy slurry, poured into a 1lt starter wort, 24hrs later it's literally climbing out the flask, had to turn off the stir bar and just let it ferment out, I've got 2lt for it to go into when it calms the **** down..

Basically, if it doesn't jump in 24hrs let it settle and step again, if you have reservations as to vitality, step again.. Patience is worth it

I recently didn't follow my own advice and have had the most arsehole of a ferment, I've managed to get it down but come back to this.

If your starter doesn't jump, your Brew won't either..


----------



## Cocko

Gotcha..

Looking forward to getting all Walter White on this shit!

Cheers again djar and Yob, for your help and time.

Woot and so such.


----------



## lael

I've also never had a massive Krausen explosion, but ferments have always been healthy. Are you guys doing anything to make them healthier? Oxygen, yeast nutrient? What size wort in what size flask?


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

I successfully did a 1.6L starter stepped from a 40mL slurry sample to 500mL to 1L to 1.6L last week for a brew I did on Sunday gone and the first step did not get much "krausen", more a thick dense white foam whilst it was on the stirplate, but by the time 2 days later I had stepped it to 1.6L and it had a few hours on the plate it definitely had a few inches of krausen (in a 2L erlenmeyer).... guess it's the same question as "how big a krausen will i get in my FV".... how long is a piece of string?

if you are at the stage of yeast starters you can surely identify healthy yeast activity and therefore can deem whether a starter is started, or not 

Good luck Cocko, remember no pants in true Walter White style!


----------



## lael

I asked the question to get some idea if I should be doing more steps. I tend to do one step only unless I'm doing high gravity (1.060 and up), and don't get the krausena that ppl are talking about. But then, I'm doing 1-2l in a 5l flask, so an inch is prob a krausplosion in a 2l flask...


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

hehe yea exactly, the same length as a piece of string!


----------



## AJ80

I'm doing my first yeast starter right now stepping up some slurry I saved from a brew six monts ago. For those nervous about making the jump (I know I was!), following this guide makes it very very easy. 

A little bit surprised how quickly the yeast fired up given its age and it has a wonderful bready smell.


----------



## JDW81

lael said:


> I've also never had a massive Krausen explosion, but ferments have always been healthy. Are you guys doing anything to make them healthier? Oxygen, yeast nutrient? What size wort in what size flask?


My starters never krausen up that much either, even those mad wheat yeasts, however once in the fermenter the bastards are climbing out like mad. I use nutrient in my starters and aerate by shaking the dickens out of it for 5 minutes. I generally use a 2L starter wort in a 2L flask (unless stepping up from a smaller pitch of yeast). I don't have a stir plate though, I just give it a swirl every time I walk by. Works for me.

JD


----------



## Camo6

I don't always get a krausen from a stepped starter, however they always tend to leave a very feint krausen ring when they're done and fine bubbles.

@ Cock, I just leave the stirplate on for the whole period (bout 12hrs per step). Then they go in the fridge for 12hrs so I can decant and pitch within a day or so. If I'm disorganised and they sit around for awhile I'll decant and add some more wort the night or morning before brewing and pitch at high krausen. These always take off like a rocket.

These revitalised starters always have an obvious krausen in the erlenmeyer too.


----------



## Khellendros13

Only done 3 starters on a ghetto homemade stirplate. Each time 1.5l and never massive activity, just a thin layer of foam on top if I stop the stirplate. Each brew has attenuated more than expected. 
I think it is quite easy to overpitch and miss out on some of the yeast derived flavour that you may be looking for.

Trial and error I guess. Just sticking to 1272/1275 yeasts so I can repeat my process and find what works for me.


----------



## Cocko

In a smack pack..

Is the bit you smack, the nutrient or the yeast?

So, if you don't pop the bag, is that the yeast?


----------



## GuyQLD

the bag is the nutrient Cocko - you can split it without popping the internal bag. But if you're pitching it to a starter why wouldn't you smack it anyway?


----------



## Cocko

GuyQLD said:


> the bag is the nutrient Cocko - you can split it without popping the internal bag. But if you're pitching it to a starter why wouldn't you smack it anyway?


Good news..

It was swelling, and now have a flask and stir plate... due to swelling, couldn't smack the Biarch.. not sure why it was swelled but it was 2 years old..

So opened it and tipped the non satchel bit into a starter.

So I have done good...


On a side note, I thought, feck it, in case this little bag of shizen is the yeast I better put it in...


So I SMACK IT.


Pretty sure I will be cleaning it off the roof, floor and myself for the next 3 days.....


Anyways, seems the shit that is on the stir plate is yeast - so Hoo Rah!

Cheers Guy.


----------



## Camo6

Heehee, thanks for the laugh.

2 years old? Where'd you find that?


----------



## einnebcj

Put a starter down on Friday morning with the intention of pitching it tonight (Sunday) after brewing on sat night. Saturday night didn't happen so now I won't get another stab at it until next Friday night. What should I do with the starter. Just leave it out? Stick it in the fridge? If I leave it out....do I keep giving it a swirl? 

It seems to have done all the right things so far with slurry settling on the bottom, small foamy head which ramps up with a swirl...ie - plenty of carbonation. Just wondering where I go from here?


----------



## mikec

Put it in the fridge. Yeast will settle at the bottom.
When you're ready to pitch, decant off most of the liquid, then wait for the yeast to reach room temp, then pitch.


----------



## wbosher

Looking forward to giving this a shot myself in my next brew. I'm finally making the jump to liquid and Mr Malty (and Beersmith) recommend a 1.8L starter for a new wyeast pack for a 23L brew.

Love your tutorials Wolfy, bloody brilliant!


----------



## Wilkensone

I didn't want to create a new thread so just continuing on from here..

I made my first starter with US-05 and pitched it to a brew on Thursday afternoon, its gone from about 1.040 - 1.010 already, having not used US-05 or a starter before is this normal and has the fermentation finished? Also; should I still leave it for a bit for the yeast to 'cleanup' and if so how long for, also when CC'ing is 1 day enough in the fermenter or should it be longer?

Thanks folks


----------



## TidalPete

That's very fast even for US-05. Did you use temp control? If not what was fermentation temp?.

I would take FG again just to be sure & if ok leave for another 7 days & then cc for 5 days.
If adding gelatine or Polyclar, Gelatine at least 24 hours before adding the Polyclar.


----------



## Wilkensone

TidalPete said:


> That's very fast even for US-05. Did you use temp control? If not what was fermentation temp?.
> 
> I would take FG again just to be sure & if ok leave for another 7 days & then cc for 5 days.
> If adding gelatine or Polyclar, Gelatine at least 24 hours before adding the Polyclar.


I am using the pretty poor coopers hydrometer.. probably not helping.
Yup it was no chilled then fermenting at 18 degrees in my fridge, I will take another reading for sure but just wanted to ask.
Is 7 and 5 days the standard for leaving fermentation and CC?

Thanks Pete


----------



## TidalPete

Fermentation is judged complete when FG is the same over three consecutive days although most allow the yeast another seven days to clean up.
CC'ing is a matter for the brewer's judgement, although personally I would hesitate letting the beer sit on the yeast more than three weeks.


----------



## verysupple

Wilkensone said:


> I didn't want to create a new thread so just continuing on from here..
> 
> I made my first starter with US-05 and pitched it to a brew on Thursday afternoon, its gone from about 1.040 - 1.010 already, having not used US-05 or a starter before is this normal and has the fermentation finished? Also; should I still leave it for a bit for the yeast to 'cleanup' and if so how long for, also when CC'ing is 1 day enough in the fermenter or should it be longer?
> 
> Thanks folks


That sounds completely normal, I wouldn't say it's fast. A 1.040 wort can easily ferment out in 3 days if you pitch a good amount of healthy yeast, which you did. 

The yeast only need a couple of days to clean up after themselves, not a week, if it was a good healthy ferment, which yours sounds to be. If it was a poor/unhealthy ferment it may take longer.

The duration of the CC is up to you. One or two days will see most of the yeast and other things drop out and should give you a relatively clear beer. You can go longer and it might give a bit better clarity, but it's up to you.




Wilkensone said:


> Is 7 and 5 days the standard for leaving fermentation and CC?


It's a bad idea to have timings set in stone. It's finished fermenting when it's finished fermenting, not after x number of days. It doesn't matter if your hydrometer is cheap or not calibrated because you're looking for a _change_ in gravity, not the absolute value. As others have said, it's done when the gravity is stable (and at least in the ball park of your expected FG).

Out of curiosity, how big was your starter and was it stirred, shaken etc? How long inbetween pitching yeast into the starter and then pitching into your main batch?


----------



## Wilkensone

verysupple said:


> That sounds completely normal, I wouldn't say it's fast. A 1.040 wort can easily ferment out in 3 days if you pitch a good amount of healthy yeast, which you did.
> 
> The yeast only need a couple of days to clean up after themselves, not a week, if it was a good healthy ferment, which yours sounds to be. If it was a poor/unhealthy ferment it may take longer.
> 
> The duration of the CC is up to you. One or two days will see most of the yeast and other things drop out and should give you a relatively clear beer. You can go longer and it might give a bit better clarity, but it's up to you.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a bad idea to have timings set in stone. It's finished fermenting when it's finished fermenting, not after x number of days. It doesn't matter if your hydrometer is cheap or not calibrated because you're looking for a _change_ in gravity, not the absolute value. As others have said, it's done when the gravity is stable (and at least in the ball park of your expected FG).
> 
> Out of curiosity, how big was your starter and was it stirred, shaken etc? How long inbetween pitching yeast into the starter and then pitching into your main batch?


Thanks for the info, when I was asking about times I was more referring to after fermentation has finished, how long should the cleanup of yeast take which you said should be a couple of days. I about 250ml of light DME to about 500ml of water and sat on a stirplate for.. about 1.5 days. I've read a lot about all the different ways of preparing yeast and have no idea which is best so I thought I would just give it a whirl h34r: at the end of the stir I let it cool a bit, poured off the top of the wort so there was maybe 250ml left and pitched that into the wort.

Bit :icon_offtopic: but as this is my 2nd AG my estimated preboil gravity and post boil gravity were 1.037 + 1.049, but I hit 1.032 + 1.037.. I thought I would have gained some more gravity points from a 90 minute boil, what am I doing wrong? :angry:


----------



## Yob

I've had a continuous starter going the last few days, I had 2 brews but only one vial of yeast, put 1/3 into a starter then bunged the rest in brew 1, fast forward 24hrs, new starter got 250ml from the 2lt starter, 500ml into brew 1 and the remaining into brew 2, the starter on the plate now is for the yeast library do in theory,I'll get 5 tubes to freeze + the 2 brews it's in... Not bad from a single vial


----------



## TidalPete

> I about 250ml of light DME to about 500ml of water and sat on a stirplate for.. about 1



And the light bulb goes on!  You were referring to fermentation of your STARTER? Correct?

There is no need to add Safale (dry yeast) US-05 to a starter so just re-hydrate as per the instructions & all's good unless of course you are using the liquid yeast equivalent (Wyeast 1056) or perhaps the White Labs equivalent whatever it is?

Of course, if you're a tightarse like myself. you CAN farm the results from the original 1056 dry yeast pitching to get generation one in liquid yeast form but that's something I rarely do. 

If using liquid yeast, add to stir plate in multiples of 100 & build up to your desired volume until krausen is noticed (Might not be noticeable at lower volumes but look for condensation forming, usually 24 hours whatever) then turn off stir plate & let sit until finished. 

Crash chill for a few days so you can get rid of most of the (fermented) wort before adding to fermenter.

Too easy!

There will be quite a few differences of opinion here I'm sure. 

PS ---- Just saw your contribution after posting Yob.


----------



## wynnum1

What about using *Weetbix as a nutrient in a starter and some phosporic acid for PH maybe small amount of star san and Epson salts *for magnesium and some dextrose .


----------



## QldKev

wynnum1 said:


> What about using *Weetbix as a nutrient in a starter and some phosporic acid for PH maybe small amount of star san and Epson salts *for magnesium and some dextrose .


Without knowing what you are brewing or the starting water chemistry, I would not be able to tell you.


----------



## TidalPete

> Not bad from a single vial


Vial size as in a White Labs vial Yob? Just curious? 
I was going by 10ml or so from a split Wyeast pack or farmed yeast.

PS --- Nor me?


----------



## Yob

wynnum1 said:


> What about using *Weetbix as a nutrient in a starter and some phosporic acid for PH maybe small amount of star san and Epson salts *for magnesium and some dextrose .


 :blink: why not a dab of yeast nutrient? You seem to be making thing overly complicated.. No dextrose should ever go near a starter...



TidalPete said:


> Vial size as in a White Labs vial Yob? Just curious?
> I was going by 10ml or so from a split Wyeast pack or farmed yeast.
> 
> PS --- Nor me?


Yep the one mentioned above was/is a WLP099


----------



## Wilkensone

Yob said:


> I've had a continuous starter going the last few days, I had 2 brews but only one vial of yeast, put 1/3 into a starter then bunged the rest in brew 1, fast forward 24hrs, new starter got 250ml from the 2lt starter, 500ml into brew 1 and the remaining into brew 2, the starter on the plate now is for the yeast library do in theory,I'll get 5 tubes to freeze + the 2 brews it's in... Not bad from a single vial


Hey Yob, just because I'm a bit slow apparently..
You put 2/3 into your brew 1 wort,
1/3 into a 2l starter
which you split 250ml from to make another starter
added 500ml to the brew which already had 2/3
then 1250ml into brew 2?
while still having a 250ml starter on the plate?


----------



## Wilkensone

TidalPete said:


> If using liquid yeast, add to stir plate in multiples of 100 & build up to your desired volume until krausen is noticed (Might not be noticeable at lower volumes but look for condensation forming, usually 24 hours whatever) then turn off stir plate & let sit until finished.
> 
> Crash chill for a few days so you can get rid of most of the (fermented) wort before adding to fermenter.


Hey Pete,
Thanks for the info, when you say add in multiples of 100 is that a 100ml mix of DME and water, also how often are you adding them?

Is that crash chilling just to remove all of the likely not very nice tasting starter wort once separated??


----------



## TidalPete

Wilkensone said:


> Hey Pete,
> Thanks for the info, when you say add in multiples of 100 is that a 100ml mix of DME and water, also how often are you adding them?
> 
> Is that crash chilling just to remove all of the likely not very nice tasting starter wort once separated??


Actually Wilkensone my "100" is a bit of a typo. 

 

What I meant to say is that for every 10ml of yeast added to your starter there needs to be 100ml of wort. E.g.. 1:10.

Steps of 10 is what I'm all about here if you get my drift?

If using DME then I would add approx. 100g\litre max to make up to a 1.030\1.040 starter wort. Boiled & cooled of course with nutrients added pre boil.

I split a Wyeast pack into 4x 16ml tubes (Plus left-over yeast = 5 x starters) & pitch into 100ml wort & build up in multiples of 10 from there.

IMHO the longer you crash chill, the more solidified the yeast cake (Depends on what yeast is used here) will become & the easier it is for you to decant the excess "Not very nice tasting" wort before pitching to fermenter.

Hope this helps?


----------



## Wilkensone

TidalPete said:


> Actually Wilkensone my "100" is a bit of a typo.
> 
> 
> 
> What I meant to say is that for every 10ml of yeast added to your starter there needs to be 100ml of wort. E.g.. 1:10.
> 
> Steps of 10 is what I'm all about here if you get my drift?
> 
> If using DME then I would add approx. 100g\litre max to make up to a 1.030\1.040 starter wort. Boiled & cooled of course with nutrients added pre boil.
> 
> I split a Wyeast pack into 4x 16ml tubes (Plus left-over yeast = 5 x starters) & pitch into 100ml wort & build up in multiples of 10 from there.
> 
> IMHO the longer you crash chill, the more solidified the yeast cake (Depends on what yeast is used here) will become & the easier it is for you to decant the excess "Not very nice tasting" wort before pitching to fermenter.
> 
> Hope this helps?


Sure does help thanks mate.

I couldn't think of anything other than 'not very nice tasting' okay!? h34r:

The 1:10 makes sense, just a normal yeast nutrient added to the water as you bring it to a boil?

Final question I hope  when you split into 4 are you storing the 16ml tubes in a fridge/freezer until needed then making the starter?


----------



## TidalPete

> Final question I hope  when you split into 4 are you storing the 16ml tubes in a fridge/freezer until needed then making the starter?


Yeski!



> just a normal yeast nutrient added to the water as you bring it to a boil?


Yeski!


:icon_offtopic:

Have also just read your problems with your kegging.
A shame you're so far away as I have a few spare Bronco taps on hand.
Persevere & all will be good.


----------



## Camo6

Be sure to add the nutrient well before boiling or you might be banned from making starters in the kitchen.


----------



## TidalPete

I was banned once in my K & K days when wort boiled over & ran over the stovetop into all the drawers underneath. :lol:


----------



## Wilkensone

Camo6 said:


> Be sure to add the nutrient well before boiling or you might be banned from making starters in the kitchen.


Noted, thanks 



TidalPete said:


> Have also just read your problems with your kegging.
> A shame you're so far away as I have a few spare Bronco taps on hand.
> Persevere & all will be good.


Yeah I feel like a total bitch at the moment, I have questions and issues everywhere!

Thanks a lot for your help, its been really useful and hopefully one day I will report back with good tasty beer for all! :kooi:


----------



## Camo6

TidalPete said:


> I was banned once in my K & K days when wort boiled over & ran over the stovetop into all the drawers underneath. :lol:


Hehe! I did similar by adding nutrient to a boiling erlenmeyer. Shot into the rangehood then flowed over into the cupboards and floor.


----------



## lael

Camo6 said:


> Hehe! I did similar by adding nutrient to a boiling erlenmeyer. Shot into the rangehood then flowed over into the cupboards and floor.


Did the same thing. Massive volcano. Only took one time to learn that lesson, that's for sure!


----------



## Yob

Wilkensone said:


> Hey Yob, just because I'm a bit slow apparently..
> You put 2/3 into your brew 1 wort,
> 1/3 into a 2l starter
> which you split 250ml from to make another starter
> added 500ml to the brew which already had 2/3
> then 1250ml into brew 2?
> while still having a 250ml starter on the plate?


1 vial, 1/3 into 2lt starter, 2/3 directly pitched to brew 1, of the 2lt starter, 1/4 of it was directly pitched to a second starter, that way I could keep the propagation going to build it up

Its not what I would usually do, but these ferments need special attention (batch for the case swap punters) and as the only batch of this yeast I've got, it does too if I want to keep it going.. Which I most certainly do.


----------



## Yob

Wilkensone said:


> Final question I hope  when you split into 4 are you storing the 16ml tubes in a fridge/freezer until needed then making the starter?


If you want to freeze them you need to do so in a glycerine solution. Keeping in the fridge is fine for a few weeks but after that will need to be made into a starter again to revive them


----------



## skb

I have made starter before for my Us-05 after harvesting, worked like magic. But now for my harvested S-23 (Larger Yeast) I have a question, what tempreture do I do the starter at ? To stop off flavors do I make a starter at a cold temperature


----------



## storeboughtcheeseburgers

skb said:


> I have made starter before for my Us-05 after harvesting, worked like magic. But now for my harvested S-23 (Larger Yeast) I have a question, what tempreture do I do the starter at ? To stop off flavors do I make a starter at a cold temperature


Yes, pitch it into *Sanitised* wort at room temperature. I usually step up - 30g DME/300ml and raise it by 70g/700ml 24 hours later. Depending whether your pitching straight away of course, you may want to make a larger starter over time, say 2L and crash chill it once its brewed out until you're ready to pitch.

I don't use yeast nutrient, I usually just throw a pinch of old dry yeast I have when I'm boiling/sanitising the wort.


----------



## skb

Great thanks doing as advised .. Looks good


----------



## skb

The re cultured yeast worked a treat my pils with the recultured yeast came 4th in state ...


----------



## skb

The re cultured yeast worked a treat my pils with the recultured yeast came 4th in state ...


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## welly2

> *Wait for the starter to ferment out fully, let the yeast settle, decant the spent starter beer and pitch only the yeast*. This pitching method means you can pitch only the yeast, minimizing any off-flavours in your beer that may have been introduced by the starter. Allowing the yeast to fully ferment the starter and then settle (often with refrigeration) adds more time to the starter process, but it also allows the yeast to build up reserves so that they can acclimatize quickly and easily when pitched.


Just a quick question - by fermenting out fully, you check this the same way as you do with your normal brewing? When the gravity is the same over a couple of days it's good?


----------



## danestead

welly2 said:


> Just a quick question - by fermenting out fully, you check this the same way as you do with your normal brewing? When the gravity is the same over a couple of days it's good?


Generally, no you dont test the gravity, although you could if you like however you are increasing your risk of infection and are wasting 100mL or whatever of your starter (which may only be a litre or 2. That 5-10% of your starter you are wasting on 1 hydrometer reading).

Ale and lager starters appear slightly different. An ale starter will get a krausen like in your fermenter, however it may be much smaller or non existant if you have it on a stir plate as the stirring motion tends to make the krausen collapse somewhat. So for an ale, the krausen may be an indicator of the state of your starter however a better method is to look at the wort/beer in there. I find that by turning on the torch on my phone and putting it up to the flask, you can see the tiny CO2 bubbles rising to the surface when it is fermenting. You will notice at the beginning there ks none, then the amount of bubbles will increase and then peak, and then they will slow down and stop as the fermenting starter finishes. 

For a lager starter, you wont really get a krausen, so you are once again best to look for the CO2 bubbles.

You will also notice that the colour of the starter changes. It becomes more opaque as more yeast is grown and you can actually see the yeast moving through the starter as clouds.


----------



## welly2

danestead said:


> Generally, no you dont test the gravity, although you could if you like however you are increasing your risk of infection and are wasting 100mL or whatever of your starter (which may only be a litre or 2. That 5-10% of your starter you are wasting on 1 hydrometer reading).
> 
> Ale and lager starters appear slightly different. An ale starter will get a krausen like in your fermenter, however it may be much smaller or non existant if you have it on a stir plate as the stirring motion tends to make the krausen collapse somewhat. So for an ale, the krausen may be an indicator of the state of your starter however a better method is to look at the wort/beer in there. I find that by turning on the torch on my phone and putting it up to the flask, you can see the tiny CO2 bubbles rising to the surface when it is fermenting. You will notice at the beginning there ks none, then the amount of bubbles will increase and then peak, and then they will slow down and stop as the fermenting starter finishes.
> 
> For a lager starter, you wont really get a krausen, so you are once again best to look for the CO2 bubbles.
> 
> You will also notice that the colour of the starter changes. It becomes more opaque as more yeast is grown and you can actually see the yeast moving through the starter as clouds.


Great, thank you. I will be using a stirplate for my yeast starters so will try that out. I'm tempted to make a test yeast starter just so I know what to look out for when I actually need to use the yeast starter.

Cheers!


----------



## Killer Brew

Just a quick couple of questions on "stepping up" that I couldn't see the answer for here.

I need 4 times the cell count as provided by my liquid yeast. Looks like I need a big starter, at least 3L. I have made a 1L starter so far. To step up to the 2L starter do you (a) add a further 1L of wort; or b siphon off the initial wort and add 2L of fresh wort? Also what is the timing of the step up (ie. fully fermented or earlier)? Thanks.


----------



## Killer Brew

*bump*

Any advice for me on this one? Thanks.


----------



## Mardoo

Duplicate post


----------



## Mardoo

Ideally let the yeast drop and drain off. Almost all growth is finished by 24 hours. This would be my process with the volumes you mention, based on the information in the Yeast book by White and Zainisheff:

Yeast into 1l wort with yeast nutrient
Stirplate 24hours
Rest at room temp 24 hours (builds glycogen reserves)
Refrigerate 24 hours (builds trehalose reserves)
Decant wort. 
Add yeast to 3l wort with yeast nutrient
Stirplate 24 hours
Rest at room temp 24 hours (builds glycogen reserves)
Refrigerate 24-48 hours (builds trehalose reserves)
Decant wort
Allow to warm slowly to pitching temp
Pitch

Boil the nutrient with the wort when you prep it, of course.


----------



## Brew Forky

Yesterday I divided a smack pack into 3 x 1L starters. I'm only using one starter and plan on restarting the others at a later date. But it's got me thinking, would the yeast produced in 3 x 1 L equal the yeast produced in a 3 L starter? I reckon it would or am I missing some yeast propagation mathematics here? In relation to the above posts, in my very amateur opinion it would be easier than stepping it up.


----------



## mofox1

One note on the refrigeration step - make sure the starter has finished fermenting the sugars before you bung it in the fridge. If there are still bubbles appearing (at rest - not when agitated) then the yeast are still actively chomping through the sugar and wont drop well when chilled.

Been mentioned previously, but two things will help with a nice quick ferment - warm temps and a low OG. Temp for good yeast starters are above that for beer fermentation, room temp is okay but a little warmer (ie 21-25C) will ferment out quickly. Keep the OG of the start low - around 1.030 is good, don't go over 1.040.

The starter should change colour from a sort of transparent browny/yellow to an opaque creamy yellow, if it hasn't changed colour then the yeast haven't kicked off yet.

I've noticed the initial kickoff is taking longer at the moment, likely due to the arctic conditions in the house overnight thanks to sub standard insulation. I've been warming the flask in the sink with ~28C water for 30mins or so in the morning to help it along before the house temp is habitable. So those 24hrs on the stir plate may be around 48hrs if you're in melbs.


----------



## goatchop41

Killer Brew said:


> Just a quick couple of questions on "stepping up" that I couldn't see the answer for here.
> 
> I need 4 times the cell count as provided by my liquid yeast. Looks like I need a big starter, at least 3L. I have made a 1L starter so far. To step up to the 2L starter do you (a) add a further 1L of wort; or b siphon off the initial wort and add 2L of fresh wort? Also what is the timing of the step up (ie. fully fermented or earlier)? Thanks.


It depends on how big your starter vessel is...if the second step is 2L, then you either have to cold crash-->decant-->add 2L of new wort OR keep the 1L-->add 2L of new wort. Either works.

Also, have a look at the yeast starter calculator at http://www.homebrewdad.com/yeast_calculator.php - it will tell you exactly how many steps you need and what size, and you can change the strength of your starter wort in the calculator as you see fit.....one thing though, I've noticed that it doesn't seem to work properly if you change the settings on the batch size units from gallons to litres - it still gives all of the rest of the figures as if you were inputting gallons (eg enter 5L and it gives you the yeast figures for 5gal) so just input your batch size as gallons :beerbang:


----------



## Coodgee

So I followed the instructions in the original post this morning when making a starter of some WY2112. My "1L" conical flask is probably not that great for making a 1L starter because there is not much room in the top to shake it up and get some air into the wort. I'll just resume periodic shaking as best I can when I get home from work I spose.


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## dannymars

I'm having trouble growing enough yeast for a lager...

I have 2 x 1Lt erlenmeyer flasks and 1 x 2lt erlenmeyer flask

Mrmalty (and other calcs) say I need a 3 stage step-up for my one vial of WLP800

I made a 2 ltr starter on Wednesday... put it on the stir plate, kept it at 20C.

Got home last night, seemed to be going ok, krausen happening etc... I put the starter in the fridge to try and cold crash/stop fermenation.... as Lager yeast likes the cold, it just kept fermenting, even more vigorously.. turned fridge down to 1C and left it over night...

got up this morning and the yeast hadn't really yet settled out, bubbles still rising etc... but I decanted and re-pitched into another 2 ltrs of wort anyway.

Didn't seem to be that much slurry, did I decant too soon? how the **** do you easily get enough yeast to pitch into 40ltrs of lager? multiple vials?... I thought my 2ltr flask and stir plate would do it... but even if all went well, it's still a stretch... most calcs recommending massive starters of 5+ ltrs.... :-/


----------



## gap

try a 5 litre flask


----------



## danestead

dannymars said:


> I'm having trouble growing enough yeast for a lager...
> 
> I have 2 x 1Lt erlenmeyer flasks and 1 x 2lt erlenmeyer flask
> 
> Mrmalty (and other calcs) say I need a 3 stage step-up for my one vial of WLP800
> 
> I made a 2 ltr starter on Wednesday... put it on the stir plate, kept it at 20C.
> 
> Got home last night, seemed to be going ok, krausen happening etc... I put the starter in the fridge to try and cold crash/stop fermenation.... as Lager yeast likes the cold, it just kept fermenting, even more vigorously.. turned fridge down to 1C and left it over night...
> 
> got up this morning and the yeast hadn't really yet settled out, bubbles still rising etc... but I decanted and re-pitched into another 2 ltrs of wort anyway.
> 
> Didn't seem to be that much slurry, did I decant too soon? how the **** do you easily get enough yeast to pitch into 40ltrs of lager? multiple vials?... I thought my 2ltr flask and stir plate would do it... but even if all went well, it's still a stretch... most calcs recommending massive starters of 5+ ltrs.... :-/


Yep as above, 5L flask. In fact, I use my 5L flask very often and I only brew 21L batches. I also have a 2L flask so if I'm doing a 2 step starter is is very easy to decant from the 2L flask and then into the 5L flask.

Why were you trying to stop the fermentation of the starter?


----------



## dannymars

danestead said:


> Yep as above, 5L flask. In fact, I use my 5L flask very often and I only brew 21L batches. I also have a 2L flask so if I'm doing a 2 step starter is is very easy to decant from the 2L flask and then into the 5L flask.
> 
> Why were you trying to stop the fermentation of the starter?


yep, I know a bigger flask will work... Just seems like a shitload of starter (10-25% or total wort volume!).. Plus I don't have a 5ltr flask.

I was trying to stop fermtation for a number of reasons... 1. I was under the impression that it's just the growth phase that mattered, not the fermentation. Also, in order to get 3 step-ups by the weekend I'm pressed for time.

Dunno what to do now :-/


----------



## goatchop41

dannymars said:


> yep, I know a bigger flask will work... Just seems like a shitload of starter (10-25% or total wort volume!).. Plus I don't have a 5ltr flask.
> 
> I was trying to stop fermtation for a number of reasons... 1. I was under the impression that it's just the growth phase that mattered, not the fermentation. Also, in order to get 3 step-ups by the weekend I'm pressed for time.
> 
> Dunno what to do now :-/


Building a proper pitch for lagers needs proper planning for timing, and a big flask. A cold crash of 24 hours would have settled it much better.....No suggestions fr how you can get it ready for the weekend though, I think that you've cut it a bit too fine for time!!


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## danestead

dannymars said:


> yep, I know a bigger flask will work... Just seems like a shitload of starter (10-25% or total wort volume!).. Plus I don't have a 5ltr flask.
> 
> I was trying to stop fermtation for a number of reasons... 1. I was under the impression that it's just the growth phase that mattered, not the fermentation. Also, in order to get 3 step-ups by the weekend I'm pressed for time.
> 
> Dunno what to do now :-/


Yep, lagers do generally require a large starter depending on how much yeast you start with. The cost of DME sure adds up when you are making 5L of starter because that stuff isn't cheap.

I think I'm fairly educated in yeast starters as I've read quite a lot about them however I've never heard of anything regarding stopping the ferment after the growth phase. You are correct in saying that the starter is primarily for yeast growth however the only techniques I've read about are either pitching the whole starter volume into you fermenter at the peak of yeast activity after most of the growth phase is complete or #2 to let the starter completely ferment out, let the yeast flocculate and then decant the beer off the top of the yeast and pitch the remaining yeast layer.

My GUESS is that chilling your starter after you think the growth phase is complete is not all that great for yeast health.


----------



## danestead

As for getting it ready for the weekend, are you able to get to a home brew shop to buy more yeast? Do you have any dry lager yeast you can use or buy? Is there any home brewers near you that can give you some yeast?

What is your calculated quantity of yeast thus far? Is it far off the amount you are trying to grow? Although not ideal, you could just pitch what you have.

Actually, thinking of that, I read an article saying you can pitch a smaller number of yeast but at a higher temperature, then after a couple of days (the end of the growth phase) you can bring the temperature down to your normal lager fermenting temp (not too fast, no more than about 4 degrees per day). Not sure if you have temp control but it's an option however it's not something I would try because I think it would create a large amount of diacetyl but I'm just saying that I did read an article regarding that.


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## dannymars

pack viability is guessed @ 70% = 70 billion cells...

amount needed for a 1.048 lager @ 40ltrs is 715 billion cells!! calculated that I could get there with 3 steps of a 2 ltr starter.... 1 day per step is what I planned... but looks like it's gonna take a lot longer than that.... 1 step recommended an 8ltr starter, which seems ridiculous to me... but hey :-/

blimey, reckon I'd be at 150 billion if I was lucky.


----------



## danestead

dannymars said:


> pack viability is guessed @ 70% = 70 billion cells...
> 
> amount needed for a 1.048 lager @ 40ltrs is 715 billion cells!! calculated that I could get there with 3 steps of a 2 ltr starter.... 1 day per step is what I planned... but looks like it's gonna take a lot longer than that.... 1 step recommended an 8ltr starter, which seems ridiculous to me... but hey :-/
> 
> blimey, reckon I'd be at 150 billion if I was lucky.


Hmmmm.

Can you whack 2 packets of US05 in your beer and call it a faux lager?


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## dannymars

the shop near my house has saflager... maybe I'll grab a few packs of that... 

liquid yeast for next time... (I can save the starter slurry I've already made in a mason jar for later)


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## Black n Tan

dannymars said:


> calculated that I could get there with 3 steps of a 2 ltr starter.... 1 day per step is what I planned...


Three steps of a 2L starter is not going to leave the yeast in good health. Typically each starter steps up in size, otherwise there is not enough nutrients for growth. The preferred ratio is 10x between steps, but that is not really practical at the home brew level so something more like 4x works. In your case you would have been better to make a 1L starter and then a 3 or 4L starter spread across 2 or 3 of your flasks. I allow at least 1 week for preparing a starter for a lager: 2 days on a stir plate for each step and at least 1 day cold crashing.


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## Kingy

You could always use the starter on half your 40 litre batch then after a few days add the other half to yhe allready fermenting beer. I love my 5 litre flask.


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## Ditchnbeer

Use Mr Malty to determine how many packets of dry yeast to use. 40 litre batch will need a fair amount & rehydrate them before pitching into your wort. The lesson here might be to plan ahead for a lager, so that enough healthy yeast is grown for the batch size. It might take a week or more to grow enough. Also Yeast react to changes in temp but with sudden changes (like in a cold crash) they can react in a way we don't want and can release off flavours. Same applies when the beer is finished - after diacetyl rest reduce temp by 1 degree per day until its ready to keg and lager. It takes more time but worth it. In my club the best brewers are all about the yeast.


----------



## slcmorro

What Kingy said. Are you in a position to pitch what you have into a smaller volume, say 10-20L of cooled wort and then add the remainder of the wort 3-4 days into fermenting? Will obviously add some time onto the total turnaround, but you won't be underpitching by at least half again.

No chilling half of your batch would go a long way towards this. Oh and yes, there are people who swear against no-chilling Lagers citing DMS and all that, however I personally am of the opinion that if either A: your boil was vigorous enough, B: you boiled for a longer time (90 mins) or C: both of those things combined, you won't have any dramas. At least I haven't in the dozen or so lagers I've made in that way.

You can do as others have suggested and pitch warm, say around 16c and drop it by 2 degrees a day down to your desired ferment temp too.

Let us all know what you went with and good luck


----------



## Nullnvoid

I know this is probably a "how long is a piece of string" type question and why I can't find an answer but how do you determine high Krausen when you use a stir plate?

Edit spelzing.


----------



## Nullnvoid

Or alternatively if I have missed high krausen, is there a need to chill or can it still be just all combined with the wort? 

I have just noticed my flask won't fit in the fridge . Must be time to remove all that pesky food!


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## Rocker1986

Probably depends how fast you are stirring it. I usually stir it fast enough to get a small vortex in the top, maybe an inch deep or so. Mine almost always have a noticeable krausen on them so it's reasonably easy to tell. It'd depend on yeast strain too I'd imagine. However, I use the crash and decant method of pitching because with my brewing methods it's just not worth the ******* around to account for the starter volume in the recipes themselves, so it's a bit of a moot point in my case anyway. I just crash my starters in my brew fridge, or even the keg fridge if there aren't 3 kegs in there.

Not sure about the second question, I imagine it would be ok to just pitch it as is though? :unsure:


----------



## Nullnvoid

Thanks Rocker1986. That's about the vortex I had. I guess what I had was krausen, I turned it off and left it a bit and it disappeared. So turned it back on 

I pitched it last night anyway, and it's cranking along today, so must be all good!


----------



## ChefKing

Can this method be done with keeping some of your yeast cake from prior brews?

Like fill up a sanitised jam jar with yeast cake and follow your method with adding some wort with the yeast cake leftovers to another sanitised conical flask?


From what I have read, I add 100gms of LDME extract to 1ltr heated water, mix and add my yeast cake leftovers and I am on my way? Of course all equipment must be sanitised...

Does adding up to 2 ltrs of yeast starter effect the over brew ABV?


----------



## dannymars

ChefKing said:


> Can this method be done with keeping some of your yeast cake from prior brews?


That would definitely work, apparently there is a limit to how many times you can do this due to genetic mutations that occur after a certain number of generations.


----------



## Yob

there are a few factors that affect all this.

Age of yeast, if you are going batch to batch, just take a mug of slurry and pitch it direct if temps are within ~5'c (10'c max).. of course this is just a rule of thumb and other factors like volume and gravity affect this.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html Mr Malty is a good resource for getting the 'feel' of how much you need. Spend some time with it.

A cleaner way, and a good way to understand how much healthy yeast you are pitching is to rinse the yeast prior to pitching, LINKY to Wolfy's rinsing thread, helped me no end in the beginning of my yeast days.

If its aged yeast youll want to build a starter and step it up, old yeast should have a gravity of no more that 1.020 for the initial step and then 1.040 for the second step.

You can let it ferment out and decant the liquid and then just pitch the yeast slurry, really depends on the beer you are putting in.

Its all both very simple and complex, what you need is an understanding of all the methods and the why one is chosen over the other... read read read...


----------



## Rocker1986

Yeah there is although it's anyone's guess where that limit actually is. I wonder if when harvesting from starters, you can get more re-uses due to it always going through the same unhopped wort conditions, rather than being in all sorts of different worts like it is in the FV. I'm up to about 6 or 7 generations on a US-05 pack, almost the same on a Wy2001 pack that I bought over a year ago. Aside from experimenting with some English ale strains I haven't had to buy any yeast since about September last year. So far haven't noticed any weirdness in the beers fermented with these yeasts either, but when I do I'll figure that's about the limit and will make note of it.


----------



## Yob

dannymars said:


> That would definitely work, apparently there is a limit to how many times you can do this due to genetic mutations that occur after a certain number of generations.


not necessarily true, Ive seen a brewer on 128 repatches... (Commercial environment) 

Its more of a cleanliness factor and what is deemed acceptable drift. Yes they will mutate (and adapt) and its really only necessary to reset once flavour drift gets to the point where you notice it going in a direction you don't want.. unless infected, it doesn't just drop off the cliff, its a slow curve.


----------



## Killer Brew

Rocker1986 said:


> Yeah there is although it's anyone's guess where that limit actually is. I wonder if when harvesting from starters, you can get more re-uses due to it always going through the same unhopped wort conditions, rather than being in all sorts of different worts like it is in the FV. I'm up to about 6 or 7 generations on a US-05 pack, almost the same on a Wy2001 pack that I bought over a year ago. Aside from experimenting with some English ale strains I haven't had to buy any yeast since about September last year. So far haven't noticed any weirdness in the beers fermented with these yeasts either, but when I do I'll figure that's about the limit and will make note of it.


The IBD text books recommend 8 - 10 repitches max before creating a fresh starter from the source yeast. There are brewers that do more of course and I have spoken to one who uses fresh yeast for every batch.


----------



## ChefKing

Couple of quick questions:

1. Which level is the right one to decant, the middle?

1. How are you decanting to get the required level?


----------



## danestead

ChefKing said:


> Couple of quick questions:
> 
> 1. Which level is the right one to decant, the middle?
> 
> 1. How are you decanting to get the required level?


I find decanting is easiest done after chilling the starter in the fridge. It helps to compact the yeast layer at the bottom so it is less disturbed when decanting.

Just decant the top clearish beer layer almost down to the quite solid yeast layer. I just leave enough beer on top of the yeast to help with swirling around to loosen the yeast layer and enable it to pour effectively. You don't need a whole lot of beer to help with that; I find about an equal or half amount compared to your yeast layer works.

You may read about 3 layers or whatever, but I've always pitched the whole solid layer at the bottom.


----------



## Nullnvoid

Whilst brewing today I ended up with more wort than I had anticipated or was able to fit in the cubes. So I put it into a glass jar to use for a starter. How long will this keep for and whats the best environment? Fridge, freezer?


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## Mardoo

Freezer. Re-boil unless you know the jar was sanitary. I re-boil anyway, just to be sure.


----------



## Nullnvoid

Mardoo said:


> Freezer. Re-boil unless you know the jar was sanitary. I re-boil anyway, just to be sure.


Hahah in this house not likely! I would reboil it anyway I imagine. Thanks for the info I'll freeze it.


----------



## Mardoo

If you use sanitary bottles, i.e. either boiled, baked or pressure cooked, or fill them with 80C wort, they can be refrigerated instead.

Do remember the obvious problems with filling normal glass jars with hot liquids though! Getting showered with boiling liquids is no fun, says the boy who got showered with boiling water when he filled his fishbowl with boiling water to sanitise it. Very memorable.


----------



## Nullnvoid

It was filled with 80+degree wort. 

How long will it last in the fridge?


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## Mardoo

Mine have lasted as long as 3 months in the fridge. Haven't gone past that yet. Those all sealed the lids as they cooled. I'd assume that made a difference, but can't say for sure.


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## Nullnvoid

Awesome, cheers for the help. I'll hopefully use it within a couple of months and it went into a schott bottle and I think will be clean enough. 

What's the worst that could happen.


----------



## Nullnvoid

Awesome, cheers for the help. I'll hopefully use it within a couple of months and it went into a schott bottle and I think will be clean enough. 

What's the worst that could happen.


----------



## Garfield

Nice tutorial. This has been a great help in getting my WL vials up to good health (especially since they have all expired).

When you say rest at room temperature for 24 hours, would I assume you mean at the desired temperature for the strain i.e. lower than room temp for a lager yeast?

Cheers
Garfield


----------



## Nullnvoid

I've only done a couple of starters since Yob was generous enough to donate to me one of his stir plates and they have been with new yeast packets.

A few months back I got some expired yeast and it's been in the fridge and about 6 months out of date. Thought I would see how a vial of WLP001 went trying to get it cultured up, so did 500ml at 1.020 and then 1.5litre at 1.040, and now it's in the fermenter doing its thang. And boy is it doing it, I don't think I have had such an active ferment before! It's gone nuts!

I really should freeze the other yeasts I got.

My girlfriend is going to come after you soon Yob  Probably not the only one too. Let's hope they don't all get together!


----------



## altone

Nullnvoid said:


> A few months back I got some expired yeast and it's been in the fridge and about 6 months out of date. Thought I would see how a vial of WLP001 went trying to get it cultured up, so did 500ml at 1.020 and then 1.5litre at 1.040, and now it's in the fermenter doing its thang. And boy is it doing it, I don't think I have had such an active ferment before! It's gone nuts!
> 
> I really should freeze the other yeasts I got.


Yes I've had good results from extremely out of date yeast that sane people would have thrown away.
My oldest was a 1469 from 2008 - I tried 3 times without success - the 4th worked and I made a brew with it and froze 3 vials - tastes right to me.


As for Yob and the girlfriends - should I keep the missus away from him?


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## Mardoo

https://youtu.be/MLctf4o6feQ


----------



## Nullnvoid

I have been doing a starter. Yeast is pretty old, but have had successes previously.

Went from 500mls, 1.020 on stirplate for 36 hours, then into fridge for 24 hours

Then 1.5L, 1.040 on stirplate for 26 hours, now into fridge. Was hoping to put it in a brew tonight.

Problem is, it didn't get very active on the stirplate. It certainly did something, but I'm worried it hasn't done enough to fully ferment out.

What options do I have? I can do another step, but don't have a flask bigger than 2L. Put it in anyway and hope for the best? Stop being so stingy and buy some new yeast?

Thoughts?


----------



## damoninja

TidalPete said:


> There is no need to add Safale (dry yeast) US-05 to a starter so just re-hydrate as per the instructions & all's good


So I've done a bit of googling and searching on the forum, failed to find anything definitive. 

People say you don't need to make starters from dry yeasts... but isn't that assuming you're only brewing say 19L of average gravity wort? Don't tell me you should just pitch more packets for etc assume it's not an option or whatever. 

What if say you had 50L of 1.050 wort but only one pack of yeast, brew shop has burnt down so you can't just buy more... 

There's the economy argument either people say "dry yeast is cheap enough" or say a few hundred grams of malt extract is cheaper than another pack of the yeast you're using, even though it's dry some of them are $7.50 and it might only cost $2 worth of malt extract. 

If it's a means to an end, why not?


----------



## LAGERFRENZY

Nullnvoid said:


> What options do I have? I can do another step, but don't have a flask bigger than 2L. Put it in anyway and hope for the best? Stop being so stingy and buy some new yeast?
> 
> Thoughts?


If a free but ancient yeast fucks up a brew then it ultimately costs you. If a $5 packet of yeast makes a great brew then it pays for itself plus you get to rest easy instead of pacing the floor muttering dark oaths whilst waiting for a krausen that may never show...


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## Camo6

Nullnvoid said:


> I have been doing a starter. Yeast is pretty old, but have had successes previously.
> 
> Went from 500mls, 1.020 on stirplate for 36 hours, then into fridge for 24 hours
> 
> Then 1.5L, 1.040 on stirplate for 26 hours, now into fridge. Was hoping to put it in a brew tonight.
> 
> Problem is, it didn't get very active on the stirplate. It certainly did something, but I'm worried it hasn't done enough to fully ferment out.
> 
> What options do I have? I can do another step, but don't have a flask bigger than 2L. Put it in anyway and hope for the best? Stop being so stingy and buy some new yeast?
> 
> Thoughts?



What's the OG of the brew in question? What 'something' did the starter do? Did you have krausen or visual signs of fermentation?

I freeze my yeast and tend to make my starters on the fly and like to throw science to the wind. If you've confirmed your starter is active (measuring SG, obvious krausen or taste testing), I would probably just make a 1.5l starter, add the yeast cake you have, wait until active fermentation, then pitch at high krausen.

However, if it's for a case swap, I'd buy a couple of fresh packs of suitable yeast and leave the blase approach for keg fillers.


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## Nullnvoid

Thanks guys. Good information. 

The OG of the wort is 1.049. 

There was a visible Krausen on the starter it just didn't fully explode like I'm used too (in the 5 starters I have done)

It is for a case swap so maybe I'll just bite the bullet on it. 

Cheers guys.


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## Vini2ton

Call me old fashioned, but I always taste my starter wort. If it tasted sweet or shitty then it'd be off to plan B, a sachet or 2 of dried yeast. I've never had to do this luckily. You know, sometimes I make a starter out of dried yeast cause that's how grandpa did it.


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## Mardoo

Yep, always taste your starter wort, IMHO

I also test OG and FG of the starter. Most DME starters are pretty consistent with where they finish out. Yeast strain doesn't seem to make much difference, two points at most. However, if your starter ends up much lower or higher than usual, when produced under the same conditions, it gives you a clue as to whether or not something may be up.


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## Chris79

Great thread here, and OP!

I've read all of this thread.

My question is, if using using a can of goo to build my liquid yeast starter (WLP838) for my up coming Vienna lager, how many tea spoons (or would you weight a certain amount goo) would you use if the wort OG was under 1050? And how much would you use for a wort 1050-1060? By this time it will be a second generation yeast strain.

Cheers


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## nosco

Why not just use dry extract? A lot easier to use.


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## Chris79

As it was suggested as an option here in the OP. The idea of that appealed to me.

If it as effective for building healthy yeast, and a bit more efficient cost wise, why not?


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## Rocker1986

Because it's a right pain in the arse to weigh it out to the correct amount for the gravity of the starter to be where it should be. Dry malt is a lot easier to work with as nosco said. Personally I'd rather pay a tiny bit extra for the dry stuff and make the process much easier than faffing around with sticky goo just to save a couple of bucks over 6 or 7 batches.

The size of the starter and therefore the amount of extract needed for it depends on the amount of cells you're starting with, the OG of the batch and the volume of the batch. It also depends on whether or not the starter is stirred, intermittently shaken or just left sit still. Without knowing that kind of information it's impossible to even make a guess at it really. I use www.yeastcalculator.com to work out my starter sizes.

And yes, regardless of using dry or liquid extract, you should weigh it. It will be much more accurate. Using volume measurements like teaspoons or cups to measure weights makes no sense at all and I don't understand why so many people still do it.


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## Chris79

Fair point Nosco and Rocker!

I'll stay the path with DME, going forward.

I'm going to do a BIAB on my stove, about 16-17 finishing volume. I'm using WLP838, it will be a second generation yeast by that time. My next wort should have an OG of about 1052.

Beersmith says, 2 liquid yeast packets, and recommends a starter size of 3 litres. Under the head of Liquid yeast starter, I changed the starter size to 3 litre, and it says to use 287gm of DME. So I guess I need to make a 3 litre starter? It will be properly 2 or 3 weeks max between the current lager, and the Vienna lager.

The yeast original had a date of 16 Oct 2016. It's finishing fermentation right now. I'm not clear on what I should have enter for the viability? I am also not clear on the amount of viable cells I should have entered from the origin liquid yeast?

I'm still getting my head around this area of brewing. Thanks for the help!


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## nosco

Are you going to use the yeast cake off the first beer after its finished fermenting and after bottling/kegging.?


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## Mr B

Chris79 said:


> Fair point Nosco and Rocker!
> 
> I'll stay the path with DME, going forward.
> 
> I'm going to do a BIAB on my stove, about 16-17 finishing volume. I'm using WLP838, it will be a second generation yeast by that time. My next wort should have an OG of about 1052.
> 
> Beersmith says, 2 liquid yeast packets, and recommends a starter size of 3 litres. Under the head of Liquid yeast starter, I changed the starter size to 3 litre, and it says to use 287gm of DME. So I guess I need to make a 3 litre starter? It will be properly 2 or 3 weeks max between the current lager, and the Vienna lager.
> 
> The yeast original had a date of 16 Oct 2016. It's finishing fermentation right now. I'm not clear on what I should have enter for the viability? I am also not clear on the amount of viable cells I should have entered from the origin liquid yeast?
> 
> I'm still getting my head around this area of brewing. Thanks for the help!


Although I use Beersmith, I dont use it for starters. Only because I use Brewers Friend yeast calculator.

First, you need to work out how many yeast cells you need. This depends on your batch size and OG. For example, 25l of approx 1.050 will need about 250 billion cells (dont quote me on the numbers, but its approx there).

You can then use a calculator to work out how much slurry you may need from a previous batch (sounds like you are doing this), I think Brewers Friend does this, and also I believe Mr Malty does. You would then measure (in a sanitary fashion) the amount of slurry you would need for the new batch from the prev batch, and pitch.

You could also build a starter from slurry (e.g. 1.5L 1.040 DME wort with x mls of slurry, dry yeast, or liquid yeast) to build up your required cells. Remember, you want to step up cell multiples of between 5 and 10 times (e.g. 50 bill to 250 bill etc).

2 liquid yeast packs will be 200 billion cells (100 bill each). Many people use a proportion of a pack in a starter to build the requisite cells (e.g. 25ml of liquid yeast in a 1.5l starter equals x million cells). Use a calculator, such as Brewers Friend etc for this.

Yeast viability will degrade with time. Calculators will work this out. e.g. 100 bill cells today will be x percent less next week etc. Roughly about 1 percent per day I think.

So, we can help with a bit more info if the above is not clear. Batch size and OG, and what yeast source do you want to use. If slurry, when did it finish, if a pack, what was the production date etc

Good to see you are in to it, nice work!

Cheers


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## Chris79

Yes Nosco, I will use the yeast cake from the Munich Helles that should be finished in the next few days (when I checked on Tuesday, six days after it started it was down to 1022). It was about 16 litres into the fermenter with an OG of 1054. So, given that it'd be maybe a fortnight after that, I was going to wash the yeast to seperate it from the trub and put it into a sanitised jar.

Mr B, think I feel the same, that I don't find the yeast calc in Beersmith super helpful - with where I'm so far.

In terms of working out many cells I need. I can tell you the following. My batch size will be about 16-17 litres, my next recipe, which I'll attach has an OG of about 1053 using WLP838.

So it sounds like what I need to do first is determine how many mls or litres of slurry I get from my previous yeast cake? Which I won't know under the Helles is finished fermenting. I'm just having a look at Brewer's friend yeast calc, I entered the original beers OG of 1054, litres 16, Target pic rate to 'pro brewer 1.5 (lager).

So I should weight the yeast slurry first shouldn't I? But how would I work out the slurry density? And the number of cells I have and then need?

Sorry, so many questions, keen to develop my understanding in this area of brewing!

Chris 

View attachment vienna.pdf


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## nosco

I have never worried about cell count estimates but I should. I would follow Mr B's advice but since you are doing a lager it wont hurt to over pitched a bit. What ever quantities the calculator gives you, add a bit more slurry. Use boiled and cooled water to wash your yeast. Making a good lager is very satisfying.

My 2c.


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## Chris79

cheers nosco.

Ok, here's a screen print from the inputs I've put into Brewer's Friend.

If I'm reading it right it's saying there is a great enough cell count in the slurry, so I won't need a starter?

see attached.


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## nosco

I dont think you do need a starter. Plenty of yeast in the slurry plus the washing is a extra step. There will be a bit of dead yeast but fresh yeast from a slurry should have tonnes of healthy cells in there. Always be a sanitary as you can but especially when making a lager. I use a large stainless steel soup ladle that I have washed and then sanitised to scoop out some yeast. about 1 cup is heaps for an ale. 2 and bit for a lager to be safe (dont quote me on that).

Works for me but see what other say (discalaimer  )

Edit: if you want to save some extra yeast then do a yeast rinse but its a lot of work in my book. I prefer to save 1/3rd of my first starter and then keep that to make more starters.


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## nosco

Alot of people say that yeast gets better with every brew that its re used in. Until about 5 or 6 brews then it starts to mutate and the taste is affected. If you are more organized than me then you can plan your brew around it. ie start with a pilsner then use the yeast from that in a bo pils or a helles and then a dunkel, etc. Youd only have to buy one lot of yeast for say 5 brews.


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## nosco

nosco said:


> about 1 cup is heaps for an ale. 2 and bit for a lager to be safe (dont quote me on that).


Thats based on a 20-23lt batch.


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## Rocker1986

I harvest yeast from starters rather than fermenter trub so my process and calcs are a bit different. I've been reusing a 2001 smack pack since April of 2015 and still haven't produced a shit batch with it. Fucked if I know how many generations it's up to. I can't even believe it myself.

From that graphic it looks as though you only need to harvest about a third to half of the yeast cake. Overpitching by that much isn't ideal, even in a lager. 

In any case, it doesn't look like you'll need a starter if pitching quite soon after harvesting.


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## Chris79

Cheers Norco and Rocker.

Norco, your talking about ladling yeast out of your fermenter after you've moved the beer out? So I guess, you'd have a mix of yeast and trub then, that you'd pitch in your next brew.

I hadn't thought of saving a third of the original liquid yeast. Do you buy/use anything more special then say a sanitised jam jar when you're separating some of the original yeast?

I was def planning on using this slurry/yeast for 3 brews at the most, maybe I'll do a 4th with it.

Yes, similar to do I'd like do up to 22 litres at the most for me.


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## Rocker1986

I make my starters too big and harvest the excess into a mason jar. It sits in the fridge until the next time I use that strain, and the process is repeated. I have three strains that I rotate between batches. I don't save a third of the original smack pack or whatever though. The third I was referring to was from the yeast cake in the fermenter after the beer is removed from it.


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## nosco

Yep what Rocker said. The Ball mason jars are 1oz i think and also mls. After the starter is finished i let the yeast settle and then tip of the excess liquid until i have 1lt left. Give it a swirl and then fill the jar to 300ml. The rest goes in the beer.


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## Rocker1986

My mason jars are about 800ml, and I don't tip off any excess "beer" before harvesting. I do let it ferment out, but then I just stir the whole lot up and tip 800ml into the jar. The jar goes into the "storage" fridge, which is just a normal food fridge, while the flask goes into either the brew fridge or the kegerator if there's room, for a day or two, and then the "beer" is decanted off and the yeast cake is swirled up and pitched.


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## theredone

Quick question. Made a 3ltr starter for some wlp hazy over the weekend, 300g ldme, fermentation did not seem very vigorous and appeared done after about 18 hours. I left it another 12 and the cold crashed. When I went to decant off the top there was no yeast cake to be seen, the yeast was down the bottom but very slurry like, so much so I only decanted a third off the top for fear of losing yeast. Not sure if I have not given it enough to feed on of if it’s just the way this strain behaves. Tasted the starter and it’s nice and banannery. This is going into a 50ltr batch tonight, should I be worried? Or should I drop a pack of us05 in as well? Or ditch the wlp and just go 2 packs us05?
Appreciate any advise u might have
Red


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## theredone

^^ pitches it last night anyways, bit warmer than I wanted at about 25 but it was bed time and wouldn’t take long to cool down in fridge, it was absolutely smashing away this morning, about 1-2 inch krausen. Can only assume it’s just the way this yeast acts.


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## Garfield

I wouldn't have seen any reason to ditch it anyway. If you're unsure if a starter is fermenting, you could always pull a hydrometer sample.

As a "hazy" strain its very possible that it stays in suspension hence minimal floculation. Good practice to allow a full 48hrs before cold crash (first 24hr on stir plate even better).

How's the brew tasting @theredone ?


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