# Orval Clone



## stueywhytcross (19/2/09)

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Orval Clone
Style: Belgian Specialty Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
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Batch Size: 25.00 L 
Boil Size: 30.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 22.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 35.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 80 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.10 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 72.57 % 
0.75 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 13.27 % 
0.80 kg Amber Candi Sugar (9.0 EBC) Sugar 14.16 % 
50.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (80 min) Hops 26.1 IBU 
25.00 gm Hallertauer [2.50 %] (15 min) Hops 2.8 IBU 
25.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (15 min) Hops 6.1 IBU 
60.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (Dry Hop 7 daysHops - 



Mash Schedule: 1 Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 4.85 kg
----------------------------
1 Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
60 min Mash In Add 12.66 L of water at 70.5 C 64.4 C 


Im thinking of using wyeast 3787 for fermentation at 18C for 2 weeks
then 2 weeks in secondary at 22C

How can i introduce some brett into this beer? I have had a few suggestions. ie dreggs of orval into secondary, or whitelabs brett into secondary.

Any suggestions?


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## kabooby (19/2/09)

> How can i introduce some brett into this beer? I have had a few suggestions. ie dreggs of orval into secondary, or whitelabs brett into secondary.
> 
> Any suggestions?




You could do it both of these ways.

Let it ferment out before bottling and than add some more sugar for priming.

Kabooby


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## tazman1967 (19/2/09)

With the yeast, you could use..Wyeast 3522(Belgian Ardennes) or W/L 530 (Abbey Ale) . Then use Wyeast 5526 ([Brettanomyces Lambiscus) or W/L 650( Brettanomyces bruxellensis) in the secondary. I find with Belgain Ales that you need to pitch a 2L starter and a T/spoon of yeast nutrients, this get them up and going in no time.. IMHO
Cheers
and best of luck with it...keep posting...Ive got one of these pencilled in to do..
looks a great recipe.


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## stueywhytcross (19/2/09)

tazman1967 said:


> With the yeast, you could use..Wyeast 3522(Belgian Ardennes) or W/L 530 (Abbey Ale) . Then use Wyeast 5526 ([Brettanomyces Lambiscus) or W/L 650( Brettanomyces bruxellensis) in the secondary. I find with Belgain Ales that you need to pitch a 2L starter and a T/spoon of yeast nutrients, this get them up and going in no time.. IMHO
> Cheers
> and best of luck with it...keep posting...Ive got one of these pencilled in to do..
> looks a great recipe.




cheers, i've done loads of research on the recipe, just have lots of different advice on the brett.
can i farm the 5526 like other wyeast varieties? for $19.50 for a smack pack im hoping i can get a few cultures from it.


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## Steve Lacey (19/2/09)

This is only one data point, but I tried to revive some Orval dregs and they never took. I still ended up adding the lifeless starter to the keg of an oak-chipped dubbel that I had it earmarked for. Some four months on and the flavor never really changed, nor did it attenuate any further. So I conclude that the brett did not take at all at all. And hence, I would try to get a proper starter from one of the major suppliers of these things.


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## kabooby (19/2/09)

I was able to put some orval dreggs into a starter and get a few slants from it. Just need to make sure I don't keep the slants with the rest of the yeasties. Don't really want them sharing the love

Kabooby


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## tazman1967 (19/2/09)

disco stu said:


> cheers, i've done loads of research on the recipe, just have lots of different advice on the brett.
> can i farm the 5526 like other wyeast varieties? for $19.50 for a smack pack im hoping i can get a few cultures from it.



I have no idea on the "wild yeasts"..you should be able too..
It is still a yeast culture..???
Might have to put that one out to the experts. I havnt used the wild Belgians yeasts yet...


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## Stuster (20/2/09)

I've cultured up some brett from neonmeate and then used it in other batches. Worked fine. Brett is just a form of yeast so there's no reason why you can't culture it up and use it in a number of beers, use some slurry from earlier batches etc. It can take a little while for brett characteristics to develop so your idea of splitting it up seems good to me. I'd just make a small starter with each one and then add the slurry from that to the secondary. Give it a good while in secondary. What other beers were you planning on adding brett to?


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## neonmeate (20/2/09)

that brett you cultured up is now discontinued from wyeast stuster - anomalus. hang onto it!

i have made at least 10 beers over the years with brett from orval dregs. it has always worked very well for me (sometimes too well, like in subsequent batches that arent supposed to have brett in them...). youd probably want to give it a couple of months to do its thing in 2ndary. but orval actually add it at bottling - if you do that youd want to get it right down to <1008 beforehand to prevent gushers.

3787 will be fine, but orval primary yeast is available from whitelabs - bastogne 510

also - 5526 is brett lambicus. the main one (im told) in orval is brett bruxellensis.


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## stueywhytcross (20/2/09)

neonmeate said:


> that brett you cultured up is now discontinued from wyeast stuster - anomalus. hang onto it!
> 
> i have made at least 10 beers over the years with brett from orval dregs. it has always worked very well for me (sometimes too well, like in subsequent batches that arent supposed to have brett in them...). youd probably want to give it a couple of months to do its thing in 2ndary. but orval actually add it at bottling - if you do that youd want to get it right down to <1008 beforehand to prevent gushers.
> 
> ...


how many bottles of dregs do you add into secondary for say 23Litres?


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## neonmeate (21/2/09)

one is usually fine. it takes a while to get going but you don't need to make a starter or anything, it will get going all right. in my experience the smallest drop out of the bottom of an orval tipped into 23L will reproduce enough brett to get a raging pellicle going within a month.


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## stueywhytcross (21/2/09)

neonmeate said:


> one is usually fine. it takes a while to get going but you don't need to make a starter or anything, it will get going all right. in my experience the smallest drop out of the bottom of an orval tipped into 23L will reproduce enough brett to get a raging pellicle going within a month.




what temp do you recommend for secondary?


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## neonmeate (21/2/09)

i havent really given much thought to temperature with it - have done it at 16 in winter and at 30 in summer and both seem to work all right.. not sure what would be best for flavour but of course it will work quicker if you keep it warm... not sure whether more lactic or acetic acid or esters are produced at different temps, perhaps kirem or somebody here who knows their way round a microscope could tell us.
but ive always assumed cause it's such a tough bugger that temperature control isnt very important with brett.


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## hsb (10/9/12)

I've made a Dubbel that turned out OK. Was aiming for a Chimay clone (used WLP500.)
I made my own Candi syrup which is OK but I can taste a little 'bubblegum/fairy floss/marshmallow', which I think is in part from my homemade Candi syrup, in part from the WLP500.

Preamble over. Dubbel is a bit too rich for me. Think it'd benefit from some Orval love. 
Could i vent the keg completely, (gently) run it back into a secondary vessel (jerry cube), then tip in half a bottle of Orval and leave the whole thing in a cupboard for a couple of months? The beer finished higher than I was hoping, 1068/1012, so is not dry enough imo.

I figure if I did the above, I could then re-keg it in a couple of months with some puckery funk to improve it.
Or better off just leaving it be since I already kegged/gassed it?

Old thread but that's what happens when you 'use the search'  
Next time I go Belgian I think if it's not a Duvel clone, it'll definitely just be an Orval attempt straight up, as I love the idea of throwing in dregs and have ready access to Orval.


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## barls (10/9/12)

the secret to getting a duval is to feed it the sugar additions once the fermentation has started to slow.
as for the one your talking about i think keg with the dregs will be enough for a couple of months warm and it will be bloody dry.


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## Dazza88 (10/9/12)

why not dregs to degassed keg n then sit in ambient.

beatin!


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## hsb (10/9/12)

Thanks guys. I'll just chuck the dregs in the degassed keg in that case. 

I did slow feed the candi syrup through fermentation but maybe I could have gone even slower and been extra patient. Wasn't a fan of WLP500, might try something else next time.


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## barls (10/9/12)

i think 570 is the duval yeast.
yeah you need to add it once it slows in fermentation and in increments.


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## manticle (10/9/12)

For my sugar additions with big belgians, I add about 1/4 to the boil. The rest is split into equal amounts (equal the first addition that is) and added one by one once primary fermentation has ceased. I allow a few days/gravity drop to equilibrate before adding the next one.

Seems to avoid the issues I've had previously with overdosing with too much sugar. Usual total additions for single batch are around 800-1000g which includes the boil addition.

1388 is the Wyeast Duvel and what I use for my 'tribute', found here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;recipe=1298

As an interesting aside and to merge the two ideas of the topic into one,, I had an electric element **** out when making this beer for the second or third time so the mash schedule was entirely stuffed up. I am assuming this was responsible for the beer never getting much beyond 1030 despite every trick in the book.

Tasted weird.

I racked off to glass and added the dregs of 2 orval bottles. A week or so later, she was at 1008, clear as a bell and tasting great. I have one bottle left for the state comp this year so I'd be interested to see how she goes after over a year in the bottle.


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## [email protected] (10/9/12)

manticle said:


> I have one bottle left for the state comp this year so I'd be interested to see how she goes after over a year in the bottle.



I would consider giving my left nut to be the judge's tasting that one!


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## Spork (10/9/12)

Beer4U said:


> I would consider giving my left nut to be the judge's tasting that one!



I would also give your left nut to be the judge tasting this.


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## manticle (10/9/12)

Appreciated all but my own nuts are working extremely well and I have no need for surplus.


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## hsb (10/9/12)

Thanks. I'll add some to the boil to spread out the additions more. Are you just using plain sugar manticle? Or candi syrup? 
Good to see there's plenty of other Belgians getting brewed, should get a thread going for them maybe. I'll check out your Duvel tribute thread in a bit, if it's half as good as the real thing then yum.


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## manticle (10/9/12)

For pale beers, I use plain sugar (usually raw sugar as that's what's in the house but I have used dextrose too). For dubbels (not brewed one for ages and never made one I was happy with) and dark strongs (made one and I love it) I use the commercial dark syrup (d2 in my dark strong).

I used to make my own darker stuff but when I'm going to sit on something for a year, I'm happy to splash out the extra dosh to make it as good as I can.


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## barls (10/9/12)

think i still have a bottle of your last sour from last years case swap mate. look forward to this years version.


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## manticle (10/9/12)

OT: Not quite sure what this year's one will be. One's been there for a couple of years and I've forgotten what the hell it is.

Another is a citrus laden bretty old ale.

Need to sample them soon and decide which to put in and what, if anything, needs to be done to them.


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## [email protected] (6/3/14)

Anyone got any experience using Brett B? Its my first time using this strain.

After a week in primary fermentation I ended up with 1.012. I took this down to 2c and racked, removing the yeast sediment.
Pitched the yeast sediment left from a Brett B starter and brought this back to 14c.
I note there was no apparent airlock activity (or very slow) in the starter (which I had for about 4 weeks) however the flavour was there and there was plenty of sediment to pitch. I should have taken a SG reading but I didnt. After 4 days Im not seeing any activity. Should I pitch another or just wait?


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## brewtas (6/3/14)

Wait. You're not likely to see any activity, it'll just work away slowly. You'll probably get a pellicle forming after 1-3 weeks.


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## ricardo (7/3/14)

Regarding the yeast i believe that the White Labs Bastogne that was released as a platinum strain in January is in fact Orval yeast.

I just made a Belgian Golden Strong with it and it definitely has similarities


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## [email protected] (7/3/14)

Thanks brewtas. First time working with these strains. Quite reassuring to know this as it will make bottling more comfortable! Time to dry hop I think! 

Yes, managed to get some of the Bastogne which is certainly used in Orval. What a beautiful yeast! Think this might become my new favourite Belgian yeast!

Theres some really helpful info here if anyone else is looking for more: http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=40289&hilit=orval&start=15

I note Craftbrewer has some strisselspalt from 2008 which the Orval website claims they use. Cant wait to try this one.


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## Jaded and Bitter (10/3/14)

Found this a while back - WYeast Orval recipe:

https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_lambicbrewing.cfm

Just scroll down.

Personally not a huge fan of Orval, sometimes quite nice and funky, other times... Age doesnt seem to make a difference.

If there arn't a lot of dextrins left dont be coy about pitching a mixed strain in secondary.


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## Spiesy (10/3/14)

ricardo said:


> Regarding the yeast i believe that the White Labs Bastogne that was released as a platinum strain in January is in fact Orval yeast.
> 
> I just made a Belgian Golden Strong with it and it definitely has similarities


Yep, that's what we've been told also.


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## dr K (16/3/14)

There is an excellent article in a Zymurgy from a couple of years back by two Australian Brewers about their "Homage to Orval". They esentially reverse engineered Orval to create "Krorval". They made it using WLP 510 and various batches using various Brett strains with the intention of blending. The beer was highly applauded by Randy Mosher when he judged it in the Nationals (where it won first place) and so impressed Gordon Strong that he asked the brewers to write it up for Zymurgy.
You need to drink a bit of Orval though to appreciates the "gout d'Orval", read the Zymurgy article to be inspired then do it all again yourself.

K


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## Fat Bastard (23/9/14)

So I did a search FFS and came up with this one... I have some WLP-510 Bastogne ale yeast, some Belgian Pilsener Malt (Dingemans) and can get an appropriate hop.

What else do I need to produce a reasonable Orval clone? Do I need to get a glass carboy (and add brett) and age for a year before bottling? Your experience would be appreciated here!

Cheers!

FB


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## manticle (23/9/14)

From my reading orval is not typically aged before release although it will age well.
I also understand the brett is added at bottling - not sure what the original yeast is.
The website is helpful and there's BN/homebrew chef ep and recipe (or similar - going on memory only).
Finally - dry hopped with styrian goldings.
Might have the stats in BLAM somewhere if you can't find those.


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## Fat Bastard (23/9/14)

Would be interested in seeing your BLAM version. I've seen the Clone Brews version (which doesn't seem right) and some "BLAM Inspired" versions on then net. I'm happy to change the grain/hops (More happy to change the hops than the grain as I have 25kg of Dingemanns) as I'm of the opinion that most of the character of this recipe comes from the yeast/brett and their handling. I was happily given an awful lot of swing top bottles, so If i can Brett condition in the bottle, I'd be more than chuffed!


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## manticle (24/9/14)

OG: 1055
ABV: 6.8%
94% AA
IBU: 38
3 pale malts (not specified), 2 caramel malts.
Clear candy (I'd just go dex)- 16% of total fermentables.
Styrians and hallertauer.
High carbonate water, mash pH adjusted to 5.0.
Mash starts at 63, 72 rest for 20 minutes.
Hops at 40 minutes.
Fermentation from 14 to 22. Second fermentation at 15, dry hopped with styrians or east kent. Secondary yeast added including brett strain. Centrifuged then bottled with fresh yeast and priming sugar, bottled and matured for 5 weeks.
5vol co2 (sounds high but their bottles are very thick - personally I'd target less).


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## mje1980 (24/9/14)

Even just adding dregs to a simple Belgian blonde will give very good results. That orval brett flavour is very distinct and comes through nicely. I added some to an early saison I did ( fg 1.004 or something silly so no worries about bottle bombs, though I did carb high and in orval bottles ) and after a few weeks it was quite nice.


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## manticle (24/9/14)

Also orval website suggests 90 minute boil prior to first hop addition. Go to the orval website and read the section on 'How orval is made' for more info. It's quite detailed.


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