# Souring Stout For That Guinness Twang



## blockhead83 (21/4/09)

Hi guys,
Long time listener first time caller (so to speak). I've just put down my first stout today (3kg pale malt, 250 grams crystal+250 grams roasted barley steeped, 30grms northern brewer and 30 grams fuggles wyeast irish ale) and was toying with the idea of souring a couple of bottles of Guinness and adding this (after boiling it) to the secondary when i rack it. 

I've read a few different opinions and was wondering if anyone has tried it in the past. I was after that guinnessesque soury twang. I don't want to do it if my first stout is just going to taste like lemons or off beer.

any comments muchly appreciated


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## Bribie G (21/4/09)

Domestic UK and Irish Guinness and the draught guinness BUL at Yatala is not soured, but the Foreign Export Stout is. Now I don't know what they do at Fosters here with their 6% version, but according to Protz:

"Foreign Extra Stout ......is a powerful link to the time of the first Arthur Guinness. Fresh stout is blended with beer that has been stored for between one and three months in unlined oak vats where it is attacked by wild _Brettanomyces_ yeast , a beer known as ''stale" in the eighteenth century. As a result, the finished beer (7.5% ABV) brewed from pale malt, 25% flaked barley and 10%roasted barley, has a magnificent unmistakable hint of sour fruit on the aroma that comes from the wild yeast fermentation,.

There are a few knowledgeable 'brett' guys on the forum who might have some ideas.


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## kevnlis (21/4/09)

If you allow it to sour spontaniously you are likely to get a lacto infection rather than brett. This will give you a similar result, but less desirable IMHO. You can buy various strains of brett, but it is a fair outlay just to make a small batch of psudo Guinness!


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## Quintrex (21/4/09)

kevnlis said:


> If you allow it to sour spontaniously you are likely to get a lacto infection rather than brett. This will give you a similar result, but less desirable IMHO. You can buy various strains of brett, but it is a fair outlay just to make a small batch of psudo Guinness!


I'm pretty sure you can just do a sour mash, or buy food grad lactic acid and carefully dose it to the right sourness, but here is some discussion from a while ago on it.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=2564

Just make sure you let us know how you go with you efforts

Q


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## tazman1967 (21/4/09)

I read somewhere..that you could use some Acidulated Malt ?
Or..the complete instructions are in BYO 150 Classic Clone Recipes.


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## glennheinzel (21/4/09)

As per...
http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/03/14/b...ut-beer-recipe/

Keep a glass of unfermented wort (covered by tin foil) on your fridge whilst primary fermentation takes place. After a week or two, the glass of unfermented wort has been attacked by various critters and has soured. Boil the soured wort for 15 minutes and then added back into the fermented wort.


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## blockhead83 (5/5/09)

Hey guys,
Just a quick update, due to lack of time, other things happening, general absent mindedness I didn't sour any stout to go into the secondary, so i'll have to leave that experiment for another time. 

Do seem to be getting pretty shitty attenuation though OG was around 1.048ish (from memory) it's been in the primary for 2 weeks and gravity was 1.020 yesterday when i racked it. It's been at a steady 20 degrees (thanks to the aquarium heater i purchased a while ago) so I suppose i should have just pitched more yeast?


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## Fourstar (5/5/09)

I'd go the lactic acid route, easier, controlled and the same lactic sourness.


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## haysie (26/5/09)

Fourstar said:


> I'd go the lactic acid route, easier, controlled and the same lactic sourness.



Can you suggest quantities 4star? Anybody?

I cannot seem too find any recommendations apart from the thread mentioned earlier where Darren suggests 1 drop? buts paints a horrible picture of decaying teeth :blink: 

I would prefer not to add to my keg, only too my 10 bottles that are being aged, hence the cost of brett is somewhat prohibitive. The beer is 80ibu English IPA.

Cheers,

10am dentist appointment. :angry:


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## Bribie G (26/5/09)

Where would you get lactic acid from? I know it's in sour milk and Irish labourers' Jock Straps but hardly sounds like a supermarket shelf item. There's a stout mini comp coming up and I wouldn't mind give a FES a whirl.


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## Bizier (26/5/09)

I would second not souring it spontaneously.

I made a strong old ale recently and soured a portion on the windowsill over a few nights and added back after pasteurising. The funky aroma from the souring was less than desirable. The taste was good, and there was some complexity, but it wasn't the character I was after.

I think in the future I might innoculate some oak cubes or larger sized oak sections with brett and keep the right critters on hand for the job.


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## haysie (26/5/09)

BribieG said:


> Where would you get lactic acid from? I know it's in sour milk and Irish labourers' Jock Straps but hardly sounds like a supermarket shelf item. There's a stout mini comp coming up and I wouldn't mind give a FES a whirl.



Above sponsor Grain and Grape


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## haysie (26/5/09)

haysie said:


> Above sponsor Grain and Grape



Whom I emailed this morning asking the same ?, re, recommended concentration

Doing the google, this stuff is mentioned from oil to food to blood and on n on>>

Male rats were orally administered 130, 650 or 1300 mg/200 kg body weight of lactic acid. Within 24 hours, 2/5 animals administered 1300 mg and 1/5 animals administered 650 mg died. Following a second dosing 8 days later, 2 rats in the 1300 mg group died. Difficulty breathing, runny noses and vomiting were observed immediately after dosing.(9)

then this gave a clue
http://www.bglactic.com/UK/Technical/PDFFi...n%20Brewery.pdf

100mg/400ltr

just a twang not a shedfull is all that is required


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## Fourstar (26/5/09)

Well i added approx 7 ml to a 23L batch for a berliner weisse.

Going off your 1:4000 Ratio Minles slightly over and im not suprised as the berliner is quite tart.

I'd back it off to maybe 3-4 ml per 23L. remember you can always add more. In other words, 1 ml for every 6L ~. It all comes down to personal taste.


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## manticle (26/5/09)

A brett strain is supposedly what Orval is conditioned with. Could be farmed from there?


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## Fourstar (26/5/09)

Brett could be used but its not a surefire way to brew and drink asap. you'd want to ferment it slow and age well. I'd be inclined to say Guinness is soured with a decent lactic ferment and lactic acid will get you where you want to be.


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## hazard (26/5/09)

Funny this should come up again, I started a thread on this 2 weeks ago.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...ss+twang+hazard

As described, I put aside a litre of wort for a week after brew day. Got lots of mould growing on it - as suggested in this thread I should have covered it maybe, but would i still get the same sort of microbes? I guess so. Anywho, I boiled scummy wort (after scraping off mould) and added to fermenter. Fermenter is now chilling in fridge preparing for bottling on the weekend. Will report results in a few weeks.

I read on beer tools site a suggestion that the same effect could be achieved by adding malt vinegar. 4mL was suggested - doesn't sound like much. Maybe they meant 4 ml per litre? Would vinegar require boiling or is it safe to put straight into fermenter? 

hazard


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## haysie (26/5/09)

hazard said:


> Funny this should come up again, I started a thread on this 2 weeks ago.
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...ss+twang+hazard
> 
> ...



Yeah I read that Hazard, I referred to it above and perhaps both threads and my question = one size fits all.
I like 4star`s lactic acid reasoning, controlable, non aerobic and having a play I wont bring a hell of a lot of brewery gear into question.
I spent sometime researching this and found no fewer than 50 different ways of souring a beer. Most of those 50 were non plussed with the results.
I`m gonna go the lactic and brush my teeth after every pint!


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## Muggus (26/5/09)

I'm currently drinking the first of my "sour mash" ale, which is basically an English mild mashed with the leftover grist of a foreign stout left to sour for a month.
The beer itself is suprisingly not overly sour, just has a slight 'sour dough' sort of twang towards the finish.
Not sure if this is what you're after, but adding soured grain to the mash will undoubtedly give your beer a sour note, but following all of the mashing, boiling and fermenting procedures, its more likely to be a complimentary note in a dark beer, as opposed to a serious lactic note.


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