# Are Extracts Worth The Effort?



## beerdrinkingbob (27/7/10)

Hi, I have done some research into extract brewing and dont mind a bit of work and love the brewing process. Does anyone have a opinion if extract is worth the effort compared to K&K (with hops etc) or should I save my energy for all grain, when the minister of war and finance releases the funds!( no time soonL)


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## manticle (27/7/10)

If you go into extracts, make sure you steep some spec grain with it. I find even the best brewed extracts can sometimes be a bit one dimensional. Definitely worth going through the processes before hitting full mash brewing though - developing an understanding and practice of boils, hops additions, chilling etc will only help brewing later.

AG is not a good way to brew if you have no understanding of the basics. It's not a holy grail that automatically makes good beer and neither is extract.

I guess that's a yes with some add-ons. Having more control over your process means just that but it also means more can go wrong. A good extract should be better than a good KK, a good full mash should be better than either, but bad beer will always be bad beer no mateer how you make it.


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## kelbygreen (27/7/10)

yes its worth it. you can brew what you want with the flavours you want. It is no more effort then making a good kit as to make a kit taste good you usually gotto add hops so only difference is the boil might be 60 mins not 30 mins


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## Pennywise (27/7/10)

Yes it's deffinatly worth it


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## Bribie G (27/7/10)

I have it on good authority that extract beers can be OK - however I believe that the only way you can make good extract beers is if you have access to a source of _fresh_ malt extract. If you live somewhere like I do, with the nearest major LHBS a seventy k round trip, and the extracts at our small LHBS being rather old and stale, then forget it. I've tried it a couple of times and they turned out tasting exactly like my old man used to crank out in the 1950s in a plastic garbage bin. 

Light dried malt extract isn't too bad, but as it's more for baking purposes it can give unwanted side effects such as chill haze. In my kits days I found the best option was to use a light tasting kit such as Canadian and trick it up with hops and some LDME, but use finings heavily, and produced some nice beers. Extract brewing is no more complicated than kits and bits, just that the contents of the can or bag are unhopped. Try it and see.


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## marksfish (27/7/10)

extract beers with spec grains are a big step up in quality from k+k if you use the freshest liquid extract you can get or use dry which stays fresh for longer. however you do pay more than k+k or a/g. a third option is to do partials useing gear you should already have at home.


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## Shed101 (27/7/10)

I've had most success with kits and bits. Extracts have been a bit lacklustre, but I have struggled with a 5-6 litre pot.

But now i've got a 19 litre pot and am getting a bit more experienced (slowly) i'm hoping my next two brews will improve.

Have you tried kits and bits? The best brew i've made was a porter made from a kit with some steeped grains.


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## enoch1973 (27/7/10)

Yep... well worth it... there's many pluses.
You can control the bitterness and see how different hop additions effect your brew.
You can also see how different specialty grains taste in the brew which effect the overall flavor and colour.
Playing with hops and grains will give you a lot of great experience for when you get to AG brews...
Also.. 19l pots are dirt cheap at Kmart or Big W... they're like $20...
I currently do 9l boils and wouldn't consider ever going back to kit beers...
It's to much fun messing with recipes and trying to clone beers I like...
Extract is still cheaper that buying beer so it's still worth it if you want to look at it from that perspective.


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## Nick JD (27/7/10)

Extract brewing is like hitting your intended target by ricochet. 

It's not so much that you ditched the kit, but that you went out and bought the two ingredients that make home brewed beer great: yeast and hops.

In being forced to add good, healthy yeast and actual hop bitterness, flavour and aroma you added the things that make beer great.


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## beerdrinkingbob (27/7/10)

Shed101 said:


> I've had most success with kits and bits. Extracts have been a bit lacklustre, but I have struggled with a 5-6 litre pot.
> 
> But now i've got a 19 litre pot and am getting a bit more experienced (slowly) i'm hoping my next two brews will improve.
> 
> Have you tried kits and bits? The best brew i've made was a porter made from a kit with some steeped grains.



No i haven't, from all the feedback though steeped grains are the way to go, is there a topic regard what grains go with what, sounds like a good place to start but haven't found it yet...


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## kelbygreen (27/7/10)

most grains are grains that can be steeped and the most common are crystal grain look on craftbrewer they have written what it adds


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## Kevman (27/7/10)

I can't see much difference between extract and kits and bits.

Kits and bits - you start with a lightly hopped kits such as a pale ale or canadian blond and then steep some grains and add some hops to the boil. 

Use a good yeast.

The only difference is that you are starting with your 60 min hop addition done. In fact in some cases, the kits may move more regularly than the malt extract and therefore be fresher.


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## Shed101 (27/7/10)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> No i haven't, from all the feedback though steeped grains are the way to go, is there a topic regard what grains go with what, sounds like a good place to start but haven't found it yet...



Probably ... have a search and let us know  

Have a shufty at the section of the 'how to brew' website on steeping grains for the mechanics of it.


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## seemax (27/7/10)

You need to think of the cost per brew too.

Extract in small quantities is $10/kg these days so your average 23L brew with cost about $25 in extract alone, plus spec malts.

5kg of pale malt, cracked and bagged by your LHBS (or mail order) can be had for between $2.50 - $4.00/kg. 

Read the All grain brewing in 19L Big W pot thread... the pots are $18, 1.5m of voile for $10 ... it really is that easy.

The only thing is time... usually 3hrs minimum... but it's worth every minute!


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## Dazza_devil (27/7/10)

Best way to find out is do one of the extract brews from the database and find out for yourself. 
Nothing ventured nothing gained.


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## Hatchy (27/7/10)

My most popular beer so far has been a mex cerveza can with some hops, some extract & us05. I've brewed with all extract, Ive brewed with extract & some spec grains. If you can get a kit that you like & find the right hops & yeast to go with it you'll make a beer as good as you will using all extract cheaper. As long as yr sanitation & temp control are good then play around until you find what you like.


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## Banshee (27/7/10)

Honestly I would stick with tins. The tins they produce today are good quality. Just need a bit of jazzing up with some flavour and aroma hops aswell as some grains.
What i would do if I ever did another kit is, get a pot disolve my malt in say 10lts of water and boil a bag of grain and add some flavour hop, turn off add aroma hops and tin extract (find a brand that has bitterness to your liking). Place it in the sink and chill with ice water, dry the ouside of the pot and pour into fermenter. Top up with water.
Then go into all grainwhen you are ready.


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## manticle (27/7/10)

kelbygreen said:


> most grains are grains that can be steeped



Um....................you sure?

@bob: Check post 37 in this thread for links to rains and characteristics.

Check this for how to steep specialty grains: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=80


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## bum (27/7/10)

Banshee said:


> Honestly I would stick with tins. The tins they produce today are good quality. Just need a bit of jazzing up with some flavour and aroma hops aswell as some grains.


 
Without wanting to appear like I'm trying to diminish Banshee's advice, I disagree with the above very strongly. The second part is fine and dandy - and very good advice for any kit brewer - but speaking as a brewer who has progressed from kits to extracts to partials and recently to AG I must say that I found that an extract beer will kick the pus out of a k&b without requiring any greater effort (same brewer, same gear, etc, etc). Of course if you're not trying all that hard then, yeah, a half arsed kit will probably taste better than a half arsed extract.


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## jakub76 (27/7/10)

BDBob, sounds like you're ready to start exploring. It's easy to be overwhelmed by the raft of info and techniques but don't be discouraged. It's great fun exploring the difference in ingredience and process. Have a read through http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html - Palmer gives you a blow by blow how-to as well as the why (if you're interested) 
I reckon extract is definately worth it, it's the next logical step. 

What style of beers do you like? I found a popular extract brew that I made was a golden ale with 3kg dme and 75g Amarillo hops added in 3 additions. It had a lot of flavour! Impossible for a kit beer using hop extract.



> boil a bag of grain


don't do that, grain shouldn't be steeped higher than 78C or you'll get astringency


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## Lodan (27/7/10)

I'm coming back into kit brewing so will eventually be in a similar situation to yourself.

In my opinion progression from k&k, k&b to extract is a nice learning process before jumping into ag.

As to quality of some extract brews, you only have to look at Neil's Centenarillo Ale and Dr Smurtos Golden Ale for some well received example.


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## King Brown (28/7/10)

When I first moved to extract it took me a few tries to brew a decent beer, but all those failed attempts were valuable lessons. Eventually I knocked out a few good batches, then brewed one partial (which turned out to be fantastic)
This year I made the leap to all grain, and while on my first batch I collected far too little wort and got massively under targey OG, the brew still turned out to be very drinkable, and because I'd gone through a few extract batches I could figure out where I went wrong pretty easily. Got my second AG batch in the fermenter now, collected enough wort and got dead on target OG, and so can be pretty confident that if for the rest of the brewing process I stick to the methods I learned brewing extract the beer will turn out great.

So is it worth doing extract? Imho yes, because you'll learn about the brewing process alot easier if you only add one extra step at a time, and you can figure out the best way to do each step to brew the beer you want alot easier.


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## Frag_Dog (28/7/10)

I went straight from K&K to All Grain. If you're willing to spend the cash (thank you Mr Rudd!), and put up with a few brews not coming out that great I think you're better off doing it in one leap. My first few brews I had a thermometer that was out by 5-10C which resulted in a few sickly sweet beers, but its all part of the learning process.

The argument on cost of AG vs K&K / Extract has been done to death so I assume you know the equipment outlay for AG can be quite big (or reasonable depending on your needs/wants).


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## booyablack (28/7/10)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Hi, I have done some research into extract brewing and don't mind a bit of work and love the brewing process. Does anyone have a opinion if extract is worth the effort compared to K&K (with hops etc) or should I save my energy for all grain, when the minister of war and finance releases the funds!( no time soonL)



I have only been brewing K&K and extract brews so far and I must say that all my best beers have been extract. Don't get me wrong, I've had plenty of good K&K brews but like others have said here I like the greater control that you have with the extract brews. I find that some of my K&K beers have what people here describe as "homebrew twang". The best ways I have found to eliminate this taste are:

1) Hop the crap out of the beer. Obviously this doesn't eliminate the taste, it just disguises/covers it. Not a great solution but has been done by more people than just me.

2) Move to extract brewing. I've been trying to pinpoint what causes the so-called "twang". At first I thought it was the fact that the kit or the LME is stored in a can, like how you can get that tinny taste if you open a can of something (i.e. corn kernels) and then leave the half-used can stored in the fridge. But now I'm beginning to think that it's the isohops added to the kits that cause that taste. Obviously I'm not the first to come up with this theory but I am starting to agree with those who give the thumbs down to pre-bittered cans for that reason.

Basically, the fact that you have control of the amount of bittering and the hops you use by doing a hops boil extract beer is the thing that attracts me to extract over K&K.

Also I totally agree with previous posters about the use of steeped specialty grains adding further improvement to your beer.

Check out some of the extract recipes in the recipeDB there are some good ones in there that aren't too hard and will give you a good idea of the difference between extract and K&K.

I hope something in this ramble helps!



booyablack


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## nathanR (28/7/10)

What about using grains , hops and good yeast in kits ?

I am currently doing it this way and making some tasty beer

I just dont have the time with a young family to spend all day brewing beer


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## Bribie G (28/7/10)

nathanR said:


> What about using grains , hops and good yeast in kits ?
> 
> I am currently doing it this way and making some tasty beer
> 
> I just dont have the time with a young family to spend all day brewing beer



Yes as mentioned earlier in the thread a great way of avoiding kit twang is to use a very lightly flavoured kit such as Coopers Cerveza or Canadian and building up your own flavour profile using grains and hops, and ferment with a half way decent yeast such as US-05 or a lager yeast at low temps. 
The advantage of using the lightest possible kit is that you can use additional bittering hops as well as flavour and aroma, and some of the more delicate steeping grains such as Carapils and Caraaroma can add subtle notes to the beer that might otherwise get drowned out using 'standard' malt extacts or a more heavily flavoured kit.


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## petesbrew (28/7/10)

nathanR said:


> What about using grains , hops and good yeast in kits ?
> 
> I am currently doing it this way and making some tasty beer
> 
> I just dont have the time with a young family to spend all day brewing beer


Totally know what you mean. My AG days usually mean a lot of running in and outside, playing with the kids. The real fun begins when they go to bed at night, and I can safely do a big boil outside.
But while you still do the hour long boil, the beauty of Kit & Extract Brewing is you can do a concentrated boil of say 10L instead of the full batch., and just top it up with water in the fermenter.

But +1 to the kits Bribieg suggested. IMO the Coopers Real & Dark cans are great base kits.


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## Pennywise (28/7/10)

nathanR said:


> What about using grains , hops and good yeast in kits ?
> 
> Only way to do it IMO
> 
> ...


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## Dazza_devil (28/7/10)

I don't think there is a lot of extra effort between kits & bits and extract brewing. Little effort and much improved results from my experience. Not a real lot of extra room for error either. Similar to baking a cake with a packet mix or using all the raw ingredients. 
What I like about extract brewing is making my own recipes from scratch and making my own personal signature beer, whatever style I choose. If you can do it with an iso-hopped kit plus bits then you can do it with a can of un-hopped goo. Same as anything, you get out what you put in and if you always do what you've always done then you will always get what you've always got.


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## earle (28/7/10)

I do both KnB and extract. With most I steep grains and have to do a boil to at least sterilise the liquor meaning that short hop boils really don't add any extra time. If you had to put a time difference on the two I would say about 30-40 minutes. For me using a kit means only a short hop boil to add flavour and aroma, and of course with all extract you need about a 60 min boil to get enough bitterness.


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## Mickthe (28/7/10)

I do both extract and K/K with judicious use of hops, spec grains and appropriate yeast. (liquid for spec ales or US05) 

Can say though the extract ones cost me 50% as much again and they are only slightly better beers really, if at all. 

Great post, i have been wondering whether to do Kit or Extract on my next DSGA....

Mick.


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## manticle (28/7/10)

booyablack said:


> But now I'm beginning to think that it's the isohops added to the kits that cause that taste. Obviously I'm not the first to come up with this theory but I am starting to agree with those who give the thumbs down to pre-bittered cans for that reason.



This is something I question. As far as I know, coopers don't use isohop in their bottled beer. They claim their beers and kits are produced in exactly the same way up to the creation of the wort. 

Note that I'm not 100% sure - there could be some leeway in the interpretation of that but a quick email could sort that out - they are usually responsive.


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## beerdrinkingbob (28/7/10)

jakub76 said:


> BDBob, sounds like you're ready to start exploring. It's easy to be overwhelmed by the raft of info and techniques but don't be discouraged. It's great fun exploring the difference in ingredience and process. Have a read through http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html - Palmer gives you a blow by blow how-to as well as the why (if you're interested)
> I reckon extract is definately worth it, it's the next logical step.
> 
> What style of beers do you like? I found a popular extract brew that I made was a golden ale with 3kg dme and 75g Amarillo hops added in 3 additions. It had a lot of flavour! Impossible for a kit beer using hop extract.
> ...



Wow overwhelmed doesn't describe it especially the help you can get on the site, I think I developed ocd after only a couple of days in the forums.

Jakub, I like a good golden ale and love a good wheat beer too, but haven't found a beer yet I dislike!


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## bum (28/7/10)

manticle said:


> This is something I question. As far as I know, coopers don't use isohop in their bottled beer. They claim their beers and kits are produced in exactly the same way up to the creation of the wort.
> 
> Note that I'm not 100% sure - there could be some leeway in the interpretation of that but a quick email could sort that out - they are usually responsive.


 
Such naivety! You're simply gorgeous! Why doesn't the pale ale kit taste like the pale ale in the bottles when you use recultured bottle yeast if it is the same thing? 

Not exactly proof but Google points me to this thread at the Coopers board http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guil...osts&t=1073 and the admin (from Adelaide) says "ISO hop" is used in one particular kit and I would bet my balls that every other kit does too. For what it is worth, I agree completely that isohop is the most objectionable flavour in (well made) kit beers.


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## ekul (28/7/10)

Your only outlay for extract is going to be a pot and i guarrantee your beers will taste delicious.
The difference between k&k and extract is what made me go to ag. My extract beers tasted so much better than my kit beers so i wondered what the difference between extract and ag would be like. Its the same again! (i hope this is making sense )

in saying that though i don't regret going to extract first as i learnt alot of things, especially about how hops perform and reusing/culturing yeast. Plus i use all the equipment that i bought for extract (big pot and pvc tube for siphon) in my ag brews so it wasn't really wasted money.

The time involved with extract isn't really that long. 
I'd boil my water (i'm on tank water) and place it in the brew fridge overnight to cool it which took about 5min of doing stuff.
then i'd cook my brew the next day. 30-60 mins. depending on recipe
Siphon brew into fermenter 5min
Add near freezing water which would make brew be about 18C 2min
Pitch yeast 5sec
Wrap up, put in fridge and forget.


I reckon go for it!


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## Nodrog (29/7/10)

how do you go with syphoning boiling wort by the way?

I've done half a dozen kits and x2 AG BIABs and have been very pleased with my AG results.
HOWEVER, my BIABS were 10-12 litre boils, which gave me 10-12 bottles, 750mls each, after the trub wastage etc.
For 5 hours "work"  that just didn't add up. I could spend a few hundred bucks on gear and do 20 litre batches in 5 hours, but hard to justify.

So I've done my first extract brew, the "everyone should make this" Centenarillo. 
Great aroma and flavour, probably took 90 mins all up, an hour longer than a kit+kilo, but for the taste, worth the extra 60 mins.
It is lacking a little in bitterness though, which i guess is because of the short boil time. 

Not sure if I will try it again with longer boil, or just use a basic kit for the bitterness, and end up with kit+bits. 

None of them result in an undrinkable beer though, so whatever happens we're ahead !


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## beerdrinkingbob (29/7/10)

Nodrog said:


> how do you go with syphoning boiling wort by the way?
> 
> I've done half a dozen kits and x2 AG BIABs and have been very pleased with my AG results.
> HOWEVER, my BIABS were 10-12 litre boils, which gave me 10-12 bottles, 750mls each, after the trub wastage etc.
> ...



After all the information (thanks everyone) I have decided to embark on an extract journey :icon_cheers: . Now Im looking for good recipes and would appreciate anyones input, looked through the DB and the one you pointed out by Nodrog looks like and obvious choice from there, however there is only one page of recipes so the more the merrier!! :icon_chickcheers:


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## zoidbergmerc (29/7/10)

You wont look back, extracts are so much better.

A good recipe I like is 

2kg Pale malt
1kg Wheat Malt

dissolve that in as much water as you can boil

Bring to the boil.

Hops = 

Nelson & Cascades

@ 60 12g of Cascade
@ 45 12g Cascades
@ 30 12g cascades
@ 15 12g Cascades & 12g Nelson
@ 5 12g Nelson

Use US-05 yeast.

Makes 23L

Yummy!


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## manticle (29/7/10)

bum said:


> Such naivety! You're simply gorgeous! Why doesn't the pale ale kit taste like the pale ale in the bottles when you use recultured bottle yeast if it is the same thing?
> 
> Not exactly proof but Google points me to this thread at the Coopers board http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guil...osts&t=1073 and the admin (from Adelaide) says "ISO hop" is used in one particular kit and I would bet my balls that every other kit does too. For what it is worth, I agree completely that isohop is the most objectionable flavour in (well made) kit beers.




We're both right.

Coopers put fresh PoR flowers in the kettle of all their brews and may add isohop to some brews (I believe both kits and bottled beer) for consistency - at least according to the email I got from Frank Acker (Coopes HB)

I am gorgeous.


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## bum (29/7/10)

You're forgetting simple.


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## manticle (29/7/10)

I have alzheimers from my aluminium pot.


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## Thunderlips (29/7/10)

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Now Im looking for good recipes and would appreciate anyones input


You must try this one...

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...&recipe=867

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=35657


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## Dazza_devil (29/7/10)

manticle said:


> I have alzheimers from my aluminium pot.




I heard that can lead to over-hopping.


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## Hatchy (30/7/10)

Thunderlips said:


> You must try this one...
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...&recipe=867
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=35657



That one is 1 of the better recipes I've used. I subbed the centennial out for galaxy due to LHBS not having centennial. Smurto's golden has come out nicely with & without dry hops as well. I also did a couple of brews with a cerveza can, some c hops & us05. A mate gave me the recipe & I'm not sure if he got it from the DB or not. I'll put that up if it's not already there.


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## tavas (30/7/10)

I was told you can liken brewing to coffee:

K&K = instant coffee

Extract = pre ground coffee

AG = coffee beans

Not sure how true this is. I'm struggling my way through my second AG brew. Big bloody step up from K&K.


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## DUANNE (30/7/10)

manticle said:


> This is something I question. As far as I know, coopers don't use isohop in their bottled beer. They claim their beers and kits are produced in exactly the same way up to the creation of the wort.
> 
> Note that I'm not 100% sure - there could be some leeway in the interpretation of that but a quick email could sort that out - they are usually responsive.




i just did the cascade tour yesterday and seen boxes of hop pellets on the floor(us cascade and nelson sauvin) asked the guide about iso hop and they have never heard of the stuff. apperantly they use pellets in everything they do except first harvest wich uses wet hop flowers.


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## Dazza_devil (30/7/10)

BEERHOG said:


> i just did the cascade tour yesterday and seen boxes of hop pellets on the floor(us cascade and nelson sauvin) asked the guide about iso hop and they have never heard of the stuff. apperantly they use pellets in everything they do except first harvest wich uses wet hop flowers.




Well that would be right, importing hop pellets when good fresh hops are farmed just down the road.


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## DUANNE (30/7/10)

could be worse, they could be chinese hops h34r:


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