# Pro V Amateur - Who Has The Real Advantage?



## Ross (20/9/11)

Brewers,

The current debate on amateur V pro brewing in comps has got me thinking, especially as the main complaint (when there is one) is that commercial brewers have an advantage - Personally, being very closely involved with both camps, I don't believe they do.
The following is based on "Craft" brewing in Australia, not the megabrands.

1. Equipment - Commercial equipment rarely (if ever) allows the control & freedom that a homebrewer is able to acheive. This is from brewing equipment right through to fermentation. On my commercial equipment I personaly can only handle single infusion mashes, & fermentation is restricted to a single coldroom set at the same temp (19c) for all beers which are fermented in 60l plastic fermenters. I was speaking to a small brewer the other day who has just added a 500L conical, but is having real problems keeping the initial ferment temp down even though it's in a coldroom like mine. He does not have the luxury of being able to use a $30 temp controller on a second hand fridge for the sort of control homebrewers can achieve. Fantastic Craft brewers like Murray's are constantly fighting the limits of their commercial brewing equipment, whether it be alcohol or hop limitations.
2. Ingredients - a pro brewer has to take into consideration the commercial value of his end product, a homebrewer has no such restraints & can make what they want. Some specialist ingredients are also not available in commercial quantities.
3. Final product - Having produced say 500 to 5000L of a beer the commercial brewer can quite easily be faced with a beer that they're not actually totally happy with. Financial constraints mean this beer will inevitably (unless really bad) still be the beer put to market. The homebrewer can put it down to experience & brews another batch.
4. Yeast - not many commercial brewers can afford to buy pitchable quantities of liquid yeast, so again they either compromise or propogate. Not a problem if they have the ability & the equipment to monitor, but many don't & again I can't see any advantage to the pro over the amateur.
5. Experience - Most commercial brewers are only making a very small range of beers & those that have formal qualifications quite often are quite blinkered (for want of a better term) in their approach & reluctent to experiment with new techniques & ideas. Whereas the homebrewer is genrally more open to learning as the risk of failure is so much less critical & he is often experimenting & making new beers every week.

Pro brewers are unlikey to want to put their name to beers entered in a non-commercial comp as bad results could impact quite severely financially, so i guess you'd be unlikely to see many commercial beers entered into an open competition where all results are made public, but I really can't see a need from an "unfair advantage" angle to ban them & i'd personally love to see totally open comps with no restrictions. These were just a few things that come to mind & I'm keen to hear what people reckon from both sides of the fence. 


cheers Ross


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## raven19 (20/9/11)

Some very valid points there Ross.

Thanks for posting.

:icon_offtopic: Out of interest, are those plastic ferment bags due for release to your customers yet?


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## bignath (20/9/11)

Even though i have never entered into a comp (new years resolution for 2012) i think you make some very good points Ross.

I can see why initially some may question pro brewers inclusion, but as you have delved a bit deeper, i no longer see those same arguements.

Good post.


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## Ross (20/9/11)

raven19 said:


> Some very valid points there Ross.
> 
> Thanks for posting.
> 
> :icon_offtopic: Out of interest, are those plastic ferment bags due for release to your customers yet?



Not on the site, but happy to organise if you drop me a mail.

cheers Ross


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## ShredMaster (20/9/11)

Yeh very nice points there Ross. Well done!


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## drsmurto (20/9/11)

How much time each day does a pro brewer get to brew compared to someone who has a fulltime job that doesn't involve brewing?


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## Fatgodzilla (20/9/11)

I'll summarize for the soothsayers, Those who can, go commercial. Those who can't, brew the best beer. 

It has nothing to do with ability, simply desire. Commercial brewers can only brew a limited range that they can find a market for a commercial profit. Home brewers have the whole gambit of styles available as to their want and no need to meet any market at all.

It's a trade off, aint it!


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## petesbrew (20/9/11)

Cheers Ross. Makes a lot of sense.


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## Amber Fluid (20/9/11)

Well thank you for sharing such a good topic. You have some very valid points that I had never really thought about. Unfortunately I, not having entered a comp as yet, feel I am too inexperienced to post a valid arguement. However, I now come to realise, and appreciate, the difficulties some smaller breweries have to overcome.

Great post Ross.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (20/9/11)

No place for Amateurs in pro comps and Visa versa :icon_cheers: 
Nev


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## Fatgodzilla (20/9/11)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> No place for Amateurs in pro comps and Visa versa :icon_cheers:
> Nev




Can't agree with you Nev. If Chuck Hahn makes a brew at home using the same gear as me, he's welcome in my comp. It's the method, not the man's profession that should be the judge. 

Besides, when was the last time a commercial brewer won a prize at State / National levels? And that said, with the number of beer courses and uni degrees currently being undertaken, where does the cut off line start and finish?


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## Fents (20/9/11)

I've been told im not allowed to enter Pale Ale Mania run by the worthogs down here in Vic because i part own a commercial brewery. They put it to the commitee and the commitee said no.

I used to brew at Kooinda frequently but not anymore since we put two of the guys in full time i just do all the admin. Did i gain more knowledge or power by being able to brew 800 Litre batches of the same beer over and over....not in my opinion.

Ross's points are so valid its not funny. Single infusion mash's, limited ingredients, yeast choice and brewing the same beer over and over.

No real commercial brewer would enter a beer into a homebrew comp, more than likely they might take a cube from a batch and ferment it in a plastic fermenetr, maybe dry hopping it along the way or using a liquid yeast.

All our test batch's we brew are done on the orginal 80L herms system the boys built 5 years ago, 3 tier, keggles, march pump you know the kind. I'd say a fair few would have way more bling systems than that.

I still brew at home all the time for my own consumption (part owning a brewery does not mean free beer, why would anyone drink their profits) as does a couple of the other boys and apparently im not even allowed to enter that beer, granted its only one brew club ive asked about that.


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## Tim F (20/9/11)

I've never entered a comp but i'm keen to, and i'd love to compete against pro brewers. If they're better than me I'd just have to try harder and the win would be even more satisfying and if they aren't... Then it doesn't really matter!


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## Barley Belly (20/9/11)

It's black and white.

When you choose to do a hobby or sport or occupation commercially and or professionally you are no longer an amateur.

The question of advantage is mute.

It's an amateur competition.

End of story.


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## Thirsty Boy (20/9/11)

DrSmurto said:


> How much time each day does a pro brewer get to brew compared to someone who has a fulltime job that doesn't involve brewing?



I know homebrewers who brew 3 times a week and I know pro-brewers who only brew once.

How much time does a retiree have to devote to his/her hobby vs someone who has a full time job? My Nan spent 8 hrs a day in her garden for 20 damn years and knew twice as much as the guys down at the local nursery, she'd have kicked their arse in a gardening comp. Is it fair that she should be able to enter her vege's in the local show when there are people who enter theirs who have to work for a living as well as do the garden? How can they compete?


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## Bribie G (20/9/11)

Interesting point that Ross made about the inflexibility of commercials, and particular the constraint of his system and also the other guy with the big conical. I've always been a bit "tongue in cheek" about entering comps where "the winning beer will be brewed commercially for sale in a number of pubs" because I realise that my brew, made on the large-scale equipment, would probably turn out to be a different animal and not necessarily better.
If any of the Archive winners are reading this, would you say that the finished "commercial grade" version of your beer was significantly different, better/worse?

Edit: I guess commercials are mostly about reproducibility, reproducibility, reproducibility but even so we constantly hear about how the latest Little Creatures / JS / White Rabbit whatever is a shadow of its former self then the next week "wow you've got to try the latest batch of XYZ, it's suddenly nectar of the Gods again"


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## bconnery (20/9/11)

Bribie G said:


> Interesting point that Ross made about the inflexibility of commercials, and particular the constraint of his system and also the other guy with the big conical. I've always been a bit "tongue in cheek" about entering comps where "the winning beer will be brewed commercially for sale in a number of pubs" because I realise that my brew, made on the large-scale equipment, would probably turn out to be a different animal and not necessarily better.
> If any of the Archive winners are reading this, would you say that the finished "commercial grade" version of your beer was significantly different, better/worse?
> 
> Edit: I guess commercials are mostly about reproducibility, reproducibility, reproducibility but even so we constantly hear about how the latest Little Creatures / JS / White Rabbit whatever is a shadow of its former self then the next week "wow you've got to try the latest batch of XYZ, it's suddenly nectar of the Gods again"


Well mine was very similar, but then again, mine was a single infusion, and fermented around the same temp, so between that and ingredients etc. it scaled very well to the Bacchus Brewing equipment. 
The only thing is I'd say the aroma was down a little on the commercial version, perhaps that's the nature of the cold conditioning method used etc. 
Also their attenuation was better than mine, but I felt that worked well with the particular beer.


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## argon (20/9/11)

Bribie G said:


> If any of the Archive winners are reading this, would you say that the finished "commercial grade" version of your beer was significantly different, better/worse?



Maybe :icon_offtopic: 

Only having had the one yesterday, it was different... recognizable as almost the same beer though. Not better, not worse, just very slightly different. When ordering across the bar, do i say it's my beer... nope, i didn't brew it (nor pay for it of course) I helped in a very small capacity though. If asked, i tell them it was my design, but a professional brewed it. Same way, as an Architect... it's not my building, i just designed it, the builder put it together.

So who is the brewer?... the designer of the recipe?... not in my mind. I can think of a BOS example that i've seen that was a dead ringer for one of Jamil's recipes... should that beer (in the confines of the comp) be attributed to Jamil? Nope. The guy putting it together, should get the kudos.


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## fcmcg (20/9/11)

So if I enter a beer using a recipe from the database or a book that i didn't make up...is it my beer or the original recipe designer's ?
Fents...I'm sure if you made a beer at home on your own system , you would should not have a problem entering it at a Westgate Comp ( i'd have to argue for you, but i'm sure i could convince the commitee )
My 2C...
Ferg


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## jayse (20/9/11)

From my gathering so far I don't think it was a issue of having an advantage but simply it is actually against the rules to enter beer that was brewed on a system that is used to brew beer for commercial purposes.
I am not going to argue for or against the actuall rule but it does make sense, it makes sense even if you do not see any advantage whatso ever.
Arguing that there maybe an actuall disadvantage I don't think is quite valid and not really the point.

Its my understanding so far that these beers were brewed on the same system as that which makes beer for sale commercially, is this correct?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (20/9/11)

Totally agree Ross (and it took some balls to do what you did).

I'd like to think that, since I wasn't brewing the same 5-6 beers ad nauseum (which most smaller commercials will), I'd produce more variety and hopefully better beer. I also don't have the restriction of commercial reality - namely I have to make a profit, so my ingredients can only cost _so much._ If I want to blow the budget, I can.

I'd welcome the opportunity to compete against commercial brewers.

However, the problem the _other topic_ has noted is that the definition of an amateur is the crux of the issue. Whilst it remains the AABC, commercials can't enter. Therefore, amateur (or commercial by reason of exclusion) needs to be defined.

Ideally, this should lead to one of two actions:

1. Open it up and call it the ABBC (Aust. Beer Brewers Championship) or AAPBC (Aust. Amateur & Prof. Beer Brewing Championship; or 
2. If it is going to remain AABC - define Amateur more clearly.

Either way, something needs to change. Though my preference is for the former, if the former is not decided upon, then the latter surely needs to occur.

Goomba


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## argon (20/9/11)

jayse said:


> Its my understanding so far that these beers were brewed on the same system as that which makes beer for sale commercially, is this correct?


 
Yep, correct. And the system was not operated by the person who submitted them. Although they were the designer and the financial owner of the product.


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## jayse (20/9/11)

argon said:


> Yep. And the system was not operated by the person who submitted them. Although they were the designer and the financial owner of the product.




Seems a pretty clear cut breach of the rules then to me, if Ross had have brewed them himself at home then I think that is fine and within the rules.

If Bachus was simply a fresh wort factory then the line might be a little less clear but if they brew beer for sale to the public on the same equipment then I think its pretty clear cut.

Any advantages and disadvantages are meaningless.


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## jayse (20/9/11)

There is one issue left and that is anyone else could enter a fresh wort that was fermented at home from Ross and maybe if Ross had fermented at home is that any different?


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## winkle (20/9/11)

jayse said:


> Seems a pretty clear cut breach of the rules then to me, if Ross had have brewed them himself at home then I think that is fine and within the rules.
> 
> If Bachus was simply a fresh wort factory then the line might be a little less clear but if they brew beer for sale to the public on the same equipment then I think its pretty clear cut.
> 
> Any advantages and disadvantages are meaningless.



Does that mean there are some FWKs that are ok and others that ain't :blink:, ban the lot and there isn't a issue.


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## browndog (20/9/11)

We are dealing with two serperate issues;

1 that fermenting a FWK is not actually brewing.

and more importantly

2 What is an amateur beer.

For my mind, a FWK brewed, fermented, filtered, kegged and bottled in a commercial premises by paid employees is not an amateur brew, I don't care how many times I get quoted the rules, it is just not an amatuer beer. If the AABC committee does not address this, then they should just throw out the rule book and open the competition to everyone and everything. That way there will be nothing to debate.

cheers

Browndog


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## Ross (20/9/11)

Barley Belly said:


> It's black and white.
> 
> When you choose to do a hobby or sport or occupation commercially and or professionally you are no longer an amateur.
> 
> ...



This thread, if you read the opening post, is about what advantages do a commercial brewer have over a home brewer. It has nothing to do with your statement here. 

cheers Ross


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## Nick JD (20/9/11)

It's not very difficult to make beer at a professional level at home. 

I fail to see how this is a revelation.


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## bconnery (20/9/11)

To me both this thread and the other should be moving on from whether or not Ross was right or wrong to enter and focusing on peoples opinions on the rules as that stand and whether they need to be changed, and, in the case of this related thread, whether pro brewers have an advantage as brewers overall. Regardless of how we might feel about Ross's actions the results of the comp are now in and he isn't in there. Lets debate the point moving forward, where we might get change (if your opinion is that it is warranted) not endlessly rehash the past, which can't be changed


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## the_new_darren (20/9/11)

jayse said:


> Seems a pretty clear cut breach of the rules then to me, if Ross had have brewed them himself at home then I think that is fine and within the rules.
> 
> If Bachus was simply a fresh wort factory then the line might be a little less clear but if they brew beer for sale to the public on the same equipment then I think its pretty clear cut.
> 
> Any advantages and disadvantages are meaningless.




Ah, I didnt realise that the beer was made on commercial equipment that is used to also make commercial beer sold to the public. 
If that is the case (and especially if Ross didn't actually make the beer) then that is clearly a professional product.

Why didn't Ross make the beer at home on his amateur equipment? Clearly he could have but chose not to. 
Thanks for clearing that up Jayse

I can see Ross screaming bloody murder himself if Dr. Cooper entered some of his kits and knocked Ross out of a place.

We have quite a few commercial brewers here in SA that were oce quite successful homebrewers. As far as i know NONE of them entered the Amateur comp once becoming professionally paid brewers.

Again, it comes down to ethics!!

the_new_darren


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## Ross (20/9/11)

Guys, please leave the comments re the QABC & AABC out of this thread - There are 2 going already where you cant share your views.

This thread is for the discussion of who has the advantage to make the best beer - I believe it's firmly stacked in the home brewers favour...

cheers Ross


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## Nick JD (20/9/11)

If commercial breweries are entering comps to push their product then quickly the competition will go to hell.

If you brew for profit - sell your beer and have it reviewed in a commercial realm.


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## the_new_darren (20/9/11)

Ross said:


> Guys, please leave the comments re the QABC & AABC out of this thread - There are 2 going already where you cant share your views.
> 
> This thread is for the discussion of who has the advantage to make the best beer - I believe it's firmly stacked in the home brewers favour...
> 
> cheers Ross



OK Ross,

You hold a monolopy for Cryer Malt in Australia AND you are a commercial brewer!!!!! 

I therefore believe that YOU as a commercial brewer and supplier of ALL Cryer Malt in Australia have a distict advantage over the "average homebrewer"

Its known as cheating mate!!

cheers

the_new_darren


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## felten (20/9/11)

the_new_darren said:


> OK Ross,
> 
> You hold a monolopy for Cryer Malt in Australia AND you are a commercial brewer!!!!!
> 
> ...


I'm sensing a little bitterness here

back OT, I think the OP is right, there's very little advantage a commercial (micro) brewer has that a homebrewer can't match in theory.


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## browndog (20/9/11)

Ross said:


> Guys, please leave the comments re the QABC & AABC out of this thread - There are 2 going already where you cant share your views.
> 
> This thread is for the discussion of who has the advantage to make the best beer - I believe it's firmly stacked in the home brewers favour...
> 
> cheers Ross



Fair call Ross, I was just trying to answer Jayse's question, I should have posted it in one of the other threads. Back to the topic at hand, Pro V Amateur - Who has the real advantage?

Well, I guess that depends on who is the pro. Joe Blogs brewing 50,000L in a hit at Yatala has no advantage at all, he's behind the 8 ball big time because he is most likely brewing some tastless megaswill, no doubt he is doing a great job of it, but there is little advantage to him in a craftbeer scenario. I have to differ on the craftbeer microbrewer brewer though. I don't believe for a second that these guys are just churning out the same craftbeer all the time. They will be keeping an eye on the latest new hops and malts emerging and doing small pilot brews all the time. How else are they going to develop new product? They have, or should have excellent knowledge of ingrediants and the tools of their trade, after all, this is how they make their living is it not? Certainly every microbrewer I've had the fortune to speak to knew more about brewing than I can ever hope to. So I say maybe not the megabrewer, but definitey the microbrewer has the upper hand in relation to the homebrewer.

cheers

Browndog


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## chadjaja (20/9/11)

Can we have a separate category for us brewers that don't use a tempmate to ferment? I use a cooler bag with ice blocks to achieve the temps I want and it requires twice daily checking and changing! That's a fair bit of knowledge and skill to predict especially in the early parts of fermentation where it creates its own heat. You guys that flick a switch and ferment are a complete rort ...........


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## Bribie G (20/9/11)

the_new_darren said:


> OK Ross,
> 
> You hold a monolopy for Cryer Malt in Australia AND you are a commercial brewer!!!!!
> 
> ...



Hi OLD Darren
Ross does *not *hold the monopoly for Cryer Malt in Australia. I was talking to the Cryers themselves in NZ last year when I met them at Beervana, and came out with the same statement (believing it to be true at the time) and was very quickly given the rounds of the kitchen - I think things have changed since you got your dealership taken off you Dazz.


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## Barley Belly (20/9/11)

Ross said:


> This thread, if you read the opening post, is about what advantages do a commercial brewer have over a home brewer. It has nothing to do with your statement here.
> 
> cheers Ross



Thanks Ross, duely noted.

In reply to your OP:-

I feel the amateur has the real advantage over the professional in this instance because after all, they are an amateur, not a professional which makes them eligible to enter the competition in question. Only professionals who go home from work and brew non-commercial beer as an amateur, should be considered to be amateur in this instance, if not, they are ineligible to enter the competition in question.

To sum up amateurs (by rule description) have the real advantage here because they are eligible to enter and professionals are not.

Ross, hope the above comments are more on topic for you.


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## Batz (20/9/11)

Ross said:


> Guys, please leave the comments re the QABC & AABC out of this thread - There are 2 going already where you cant share your views.
> 
> This thread is for the discussion of who has the advantage to make the best beer - I believe it's firmly stacked in the home brewers favour...
> 
> cheers Ross




I can't see your point here Ross, plenty of pro brewers like yourself also brew on home brew equipment. If your saying that you have more room to diversify on small home brew equipment then yes I'm sure you have, it's not rocket science. 

Like it or not this thread will follow the other two and I don't believe that's a bad thing. I hope some changes for the better will come out of it, perhaps it's some of the reason I've not entered a comp. now for 5 years.


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## drew9242 (20/9/11)

Interesting point you have made Ross. I would think like browndog has said that the microbrewers who still have a small scale production are at a advantage. But the big brewreys maybe not, unless you are up against some of these big european ones.

:icon_offtopic: I do think that it should be defined to home brews in the amatuer comp. I doubt that we could enter a beer into the comercial beer comp so why should they be entering in the amatuer comp.


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## Tony (20/9/11)

I have no problems with pro brewers entering beers in amature comps if they are brewed on home made equipment at home....... in fact i encourage it! Nothing better than the self satisfaction, when you knock off a top notch comercial head brewer.

I know the 2 Micro's close to me are manned with head brewers who started as a humble home brewer like I, and while i consider them greatly tallented and passionate brewers, the good gear in the flash brewery must help a bit. Mainly cause they know it soooooo well and with all the efforts they make to bring us fair punters fine lagers and ales, im sure there home brewing time and experience suffers as a result.

This will differ from brewer to brewer, as in the pure amature world of brewing and for this reason, i see no problem with them entering home brewed beers.

FWK's brewed on premise by someone else...... thats only gunna cheat the brewer entering the beer in the end, like sweating the label off a bottle of coopers, changing the cap and entering it as a aussie ale....... your only fooling yourself.

cheers


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## Josh (20/9/11)

If you are talking about the advantages of pro brewers making beer at work vs amateur brewers making beer at home, then I can take your point that the amateur at home has the advantage. Taking a pour off the stream of beer at work would leave you with a beer that has to make the bottom line healthy. Whereas a 9% RIS can be made at home without really breaking the budget (unless you stuff up your temp control and have to re-brew it :unsure: )

But if the debate is about pro brewers using the skills they may pick up at work and then take home to use on their home system, then there have to be significant advantages. Especially the brewer at Yatala, if they work in the lab, would gain immense knowledge and experience that the average homebrewer would not have access to.

:icon_offtopic: I'm still happy for pro brewers to enter comps with beer made at home on home systems h34r:


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## JonnyAnchovy (20/9/11)

think Ross is spot on the money. 

Dealing with 20L batches at home makes process/temp control a LOT easier than dealing with 20HL. At home I can very easily and cheaply buy or prop up PLENTY of yeast (a real challange for many micros in OZ), and brew with techniques which would be very difficult to make commercially viable (i.e. Eisbock, no-sparge, extremely high gravity brewing, etc etc). The only real advantage pro brewers have IMO is access to cheaper materials, and perhaps things like O2, which is just a little beyond the means of most home brewers. 

My 2c.


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## dr K (20/9/11)

> Hi OLD Darren
> Ross does not hold the monopoly for Cryer Malt in Australia. I was talking to the Cryers themselves in NZ last year when I met them at Beervana, and came out with the same statement (believing it to be true at the time) and was very quickly given the rounds of the kitchen - I think things have changed since you got your dealership taken off you Dazz.



I do not believe that Ross has ever held the monopoly on Cryer Malts, yes he sells them but so do business's who were selling them before Craftbrewer existed and still do.
Nor do I believe that Ross would ever have told anyone that he was the exclusive distributor.
I have no idea who Dazz is.

K


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## ashley_leask (20/9/11)

Josh said:


> If you are talking about the advantages of pro brewers making beer at work vs amateur brewers making beer at home, then I can take your point that the amateur at home has the advantage. Taking a pour off the stream of beer at work would leave you with a beer that has to make the bottom line healthy. Whereas a 9% RIS can be made at home without really breaking the budget (unless you stuff up your temp control and have to re-brew it :unsure: )
> 
> But if the debate is about pro brewers using the skills they may pick up at work and then take home to use on their home system, then there have to be significant advantages. Especially the brewer at Yatala, if they work in the lab, would gain immense knowledge and experience that the average homebrewer would not have access to.
> 
> :icon_offtopic: I'm still happy for pro brewers to enter comps with beer made at home on home systems h34r:



I don't think the megabrewers would necessarily have an advantage at all related to their professional knowledge. If they run like most other large companies, they are full of specialists who know a small part of the overall process incredibly well, but have limited knowledge in other areas. Certainly that's true of me and my industry. The craft brewer who runs their production end to end I think is a different story.

With most (all?) of the large brewing environments being automated as well, there may not be much of what they do day to day that translates in any way to home brewing. Not to say that some may not have deep brewing knowledge in many areas, but I don't think that's automatically a given, just because somebody runs the control panel punching out 50K litres a week of psuedo Asahi at Yatala.


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## Silo Ted (20/9/11)

Ross said:


> This thread, if you read the opening post, is about what advantages do a commercial brewer have over a home brewer. It has nothing to do with your statement here.
> 
> cheers Ross



The advantage that a professional brewer has is more practical hours of experience logged. This just can't be 'switched off' if he decides to brew on amateur equipment. Just as a professional athlete couldn't possibly switch off his years of training if he wants to run in an amateur carnival. 

As a side not, the QABC place getter across many categories, Liam, he's a professional brewer too, right ? If so, QLD brewers are getting SCREWED, and I really hope these discussions bring about some change in future comps.


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## browndog (20/9/11)

Silo Ted said:


> The advantage that a professional brewer has is more practical hours of experience logged. This just can't be 'switched off' if he decides to brew on amateur equipment. Just as a professional athlete couldn't possibly switch off his years of training if he wants to run in an amateur carnival.
> 
> As a side not, the QABC place getter across many categories, Liam, he's a professional brewer too, right ? If so, QLD brewers are getting SCREWED, and I really hope these discussions bring about some change in future comps.




Silo Ted, Liam was working part time up at Mount Tambourine, he resigned a couple of months back.


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## roger mellie (20/9/11)

I think this argument is a little Rhetorical actually - whilst I agree with some of Ross's points:- I think that the commercial brewer has the advantage - because of the quality of the equipment. Take Knappstein Enterprise brewery as a case in point. I did a visit their not so long ago and they have some pretty schmick stuff at their disposal. I doubt whether too many craft brewers make a product as clean and repeatable as they do.

The examples Ross has quoted seem to point to the fact that commercial size operations are inflexible - I disagree. Commercial operations are inflexible because the repeatability the market requires make them so - not because the equipment is incapable of producing beers of equal quality to the craft brewer on his 50L converted keg kit.

It would be perfectly 'feasible' for a micro size operation to make whatever recipe they wanted. Given the fact that most micros use steam as their primary energy source the limitations are process based and money and new infrastructure usually sorts that out.

A commercial operation 'generally' have the options to control temperature far better than a smaller operation
The commercial brewery has access to chilling systems and filtration systems totally out of the reach of the craft brewer.
Most micros I have seen have jacketed fermenters capable of temperature control beyond that of wacking a 30L plastic tub in a fridge.

Using yeast as an example is also a bit tenuous Rossco - I was led to believe that harvesting is pretty standard practice - I agree that changing yeasts would be a pretty costly initial outlay though.

Just my opinions.

RM


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## geoffd (20/9/11)

Thats a very valid point Silo, 

a similar instance in sport occured with Tadgh Kenelly returning to Ireland & getting onto the Kerry footbal team & win an All Ireland

(1) he has bumped someone else off the squad who did not have access to full time professional training

(2) It failed to reward the bumped squad member for sticking with an amateur code for his entire career, spitting in the face of code loyalty.

(3) It breached the spirit of the law that proffessional sportplayers (of any code) are not eligilble to play gaelic sports at a competitive level. Simply by briefly retiring for the period.

I am an ardent supporter of amater sports over their counterparts which I regard purely as businesses living off misplaced loyalty.

As for the original topic, I agree Ross, an advanced homebrewery is superior to a commercial brewery


as for probrewers in comps, I have no objection except for the following objections

(1) must be brewed at home on home equipment

(2) no association of any kind should be made to the brewers workplace



as for FWK, thats far more difficult to come to agreement.

I think it is impossible to police / enforce banning them, so they must be accepted, perhaps there should be a seperate award for best of show for all grain beers, though, even a FWK brewer stil has to handle the yeast variables & possibly modifying the malt or hops. how do you stop someone entering a FWK & claiming it to be AG, it is only entrants concience that can police this.

I guess in the long run, how much satisfaction would you get winning with beers made by someone else.


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## Bribie G (20/9/11)

dr K said:


> I do not believe that Ross has ever held the monopoly on Cryer Malts, yes he sells them but so do business's who were selling them before Craftbrewer existed and still do.
> Nor do I believe that Ross would ever have told anyone that he was the exclusive distributor.
> I have no idea who Dazz is.
> 
> K



DrK
Were you brought up in Australia? 

If so you would be well familiar with the Australian colloquial tradition of substituting "z" for "r" when forming "familiar" terms or nicknames for People where the first syllable of their first name ends with an "r" - and aditionally often rounded off with a final "a"

Examples:

Terence - Tezz, Tezza
Maurice- Moz, Mozza
Warren - Woz, Wozza

And in a major cultural diversion since the 1980s increasingly applied to females:

Lauren : Loz, Lozza etc etc 

Not forgetting our good old and persistent:
Darren: Daz, Dazz, Dazza 

Or were you confused by my usage of two "z" perhaps? :icon_cheers:


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## schooey (20/9/11)

browndog said:


> Well, I guess that depends on who is the pro. Joe Blogs brewing 50,000L in a hit at Yatala has no advantage at all, he's behind the 8 ball big time because he is most likely brewing some tastless megaswill, no doubt he is doing a great job of it, but there is little advantage to him in a craftbeer scenario.



I tend to disagree with this point, BD...

Sure the forklift driver and the secretary probably haven't, many of these guys have been trained in courses you and I probably couldn't get an invitation to, or affford, if we wanted. They have a lot of resources at their fingertips. Just because they are seen to be brewing only four types of 'tasteless megaswill' by the average homebrewer, it shouldn't be forgooten that he has learnt to do it repeatably, within a very, very tight spec and realise what he needs to do in every last step of his brewing process to achieve that end goal. He can probably recognise more off flavours than you care to know about as well as describing in detail what caused them and what their pre-cursors are and what he needs to do to correct it precisely. I think that is a pretty good advantage...

But I think the point is moot. I doubt any of them would really want to enter our little comps. When they do, we probably all should start to worry..


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## dr K (20/9/11)

> DrK
> Were you brought up in Australia?
> 
> If so you would be well familiar with the Australian colloquial tradition of substituting "z" for "r" when forming "familiar" terms or nicknames for People where the first syllable of their first name ends with an "r" - and aditionally often rounded off with a final "a"



Of course, Dazz is Darth...

K


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## Bribie G (20/9/11)

dr K said:


> Of course, Dazz is Darth...
> 
> K



Yes, you are dead right - didn't realise it till now - perfect likeness :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## MHB (20/9/11)

There are going to be advantages to both sides.
On balance I think the dedicated home brewer comes out on top. We have pretty much unrestricted access to everything a pro brewer can get. If we are willing to invest in the equipment as good control of the mash/boil/fermentation parameters of a brew as is available to anyone.
There is no restrictions on knowledge, go the IBD website and enrol in a coarse, you can study right up to PhD level if you are so inclined (I read the Master Brewers exam questions and Im never going there) but there are plenty of AHBs who have done/are doing the Diploma that carried degree equivalence.
A lot of the responses in this and the other two threads running, boil down to people trying to exclude brewers who arent making beer the same way they do. Reminds me of that old Rolling Stones line aptly enough from I Can't Get No Well he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me.
There are lots of ways to make beer, making good bear takes skill and knowledge lets get on with judging the beer not the man or the method.
MHB

On a personal note: -
I believe Ross has acted within the rules; his actions have highlighted an area of the rules that need further examination.
Although I dont agree with some of his opinions my impression is that Ross acted from conviction and with honour.
This and the related discussions are naturally going to get some brewers blood pressure rising, please lets all respect that we may never reach a conclusion that satisfies everyone, if we can avoid acrimony and address the issues we all stand to benefit.
Mark


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## reVoxAHB (20/9/11)

I agree with some of your observations Ross. Clearly, there is no point of contention on the use of a unique strain of liquid yeast in commercial quantity vs. a close approximation dried. Many of your points are draconian in relation to commercial operations, where they need not be. With respect, brewing is problem [email protected] any scale :icon_cheers: 



Ross said:


> 1. Equipment - Commercial equipment rarely (if ever) allows the control & freedom that a homebrewer is able to acheive. This is from brewing equipment right through to fermentation. On my commercial equipment I personaly can only handle single infusion mashes, & fermentation is restricted to a single coldroom set at the same temp (19c) for all beers which are fermented in 60l plastic fermenters. I was speaking to a small brewer the other day who has just added a 500L conical, but is having real problems keeping the initial ferment temp down even though it's in a coldroom like mine. He does not have the luxury of being able to use a $30 temp controller on a second hand fridge for the sort of control homebrewers can achieve. Fantastic Craft brewers like Murray's are constantly fighting the limits of their commercial brewing equipment, whether it be alcohol or hop limitations.


Lumping all equipment into the same basket is confused. Additionally, commercial breweries will be unique in their own right (turn-key, generic, purpose built solutions aside) including differing standard operating procedure affecting final product. 

Step mashing is generally a matter of efficiency in terms of brewer's wage and resources. But it can be, and is done on commercial scale. A good friend of mine, who is an award winning commercial brewer in KS, USA recently used his fermentation program to monitor his mash, sending his wort through his PC which was recirced with hot water to desired step temp. He effectively turned his system into a giant [email protected] Oh, and this was so he could ferulic rest his Weizenbock.

Any decent pro brewery will have glycol jacketed fermenters with individual temp control. Chucking several ferms in an ambient environment can present problems including the ones you've mentioned. The only commercial operation that I've seen attempt this is Emerald Hill, and they're out of business (for a myriad of reasons including no/poor control of fermentation temperature). 

Limitations in commercial equipment can be addressed just as they are on a homebrew (or any) scale eg HLT is restrictive to a brew day, requiring top up and ramp time where, as solution, a larger HLT can be installed. Ferms not meeting production? 3x sized unitank as replacement. Limitations in alcohol? Explain. Limitations in hop? How and where? At what stage in the process?



Ross said:


> 2. Ingredients - a pro brewer has to take into consideration the commercial value of his end product, a homebrewer has no such restraints & can make what they want. Some specialist ingredients are also not available in commercial quantities.


Of course consideration is made on a commercial scale. How is consideration a restraint? 

Take a Pilsener in production with 96% base of domestic pils, [email protected] $15AUD/6pack, where the brewery decides to shift to a base of import floor-malted boh pils. Retail would necessarily shift from $15 to $19 to reflect the change in bill. Where's the problem? If the final selling price reflects the cost of ingredient, why does it matter? I've paid $30 for 1 bottle of commercial beer, and would happily do so again so long as the brewery keeps making the stuff. If consideration simply means time involved, who wouldn't want to do that? We're all passionate here - home, pro, commercial. And money matters to each of us. 

Agreed, some specialist ingredients are not available in commercial quantities. This is where a good commercial brewer explores alternatives eg dried curaco orange. A homebrewer does the same (and probably, rightly so atm with Curaco). If the commercial brewer can't get it to begin with (at his scale) alternate ingredients come into play and necessarily so. And there are plenty of both private and public pro forums where subs (and ingredients, in general) are addressed.



Ross said:


> 3. Final product - Having produced say 500 to 5000L of a beer the commercial brewer can quite easily be faced with a beer that they're not actually totally happy with. Financial constraints mean this beer will inevitably (unless really bad) still be the beer put to market. The homebrewer can put it down to experience & brews another batch.



Commercial breweries will blend beers that don't meet their targets. If batch A was brewer error = forgot bittering hops, batch B would be brewed with compensation eg highly bittered and both beers blended to batch C. If SRM isn't met, a number of commercial products are available to adjust in ppm. Point is, commercial beer is never run down the drain and can almost always be fixed. This is where it's important for the brewer to have a very developed palate, where final product meets consumer expectation across the board (this isn't that difficult - you make your APA taste like your APA). I use the example of a brewer forgetting his bittering hops as a homebrew-friendly example. This would certainly qualify as a serious bonehead manoeuvre on a pro scale (and frankly, I've never heard of it happening) the reality is we're talking missing very specific targets like gravity being out by 2 points or flavour perception being lessened at a specific batch where maybe a specialty ingredient like a nut used in mash isn't quite as toasty as the brewer had expected, so an excessive batch is brewed and ideally, in the bending process, a target beer is reached. 

I have never worked in a commercial environment where a beer has been infected, but I can guarantee the drop valve would be opened to the floor without question or hesitation. Infection can not be fixed or masked at any level. Pro brewers have the experience where anomalies are rare, and batches don't need to be put down to lack of experience or chalked to experience. 

You shouldn't be brewing commercially if you're running beer to the floor on any regular basis, period. 



Ross said:


> 4. Yeast - not many commercial brewers can afford to buy pitchable quantities of liquid yeast, so again they either compromise or propogate. Not a problem if they have the ability & the equipment to monitor, but many don't & again I can't see any advantage to the pro over the amateur.



100% agreed, here. It's no so much that AUS brewer's can't afford pitchable quantities of liquid yeast, it's not readily available in Australia at pitchable quantities. Or to get commercial pitchable quantities on a per batch [email protected] international priority, would run you several hundred dollars.. maybe 4x the cost of dried. Commercial micros in the States requiring 1st gen can contact WL/wyeast with their brew roster requesting x strain even request overnight quantity.. need to pitch tomorrow at 4pm sort of deal. Commercial quantity is affordable, readily available and systems are in place to make the entire operation convenient. We're scratching our asses here. And you're right, only the big boys CUB etc. have the proper gear, labs & environment to correctly monitor this leg of operation. 

In terms of propagation, homebrewers propagate all the time. We step to correct pitching rates. We propagate from slants, etc. If I were to hazard on who had the upper hand, both being lab-less, I'd say it's the commercial operation as they're not fermenting 4 meters from a toilet, or dryer, or weird blossom tree opposite the window from the homebrew den. Generally speaking, a commercial operation will be a more sterile environment than a person's home (I don't change shitty nappies at work, but I do at home)!



Ross said:


> 5. Experience - Most commercial brewers are only making a very small range of beers & those that have formal qualifications quite often are quite blinkered (for want of a better term) in their approach & reluctent to experiment with new techniques & ideas. Whereas the homebrewer is genrally more open to learning as the risk of failure is so much less critical & he is often experimenting & making new beers every week.



Commercial brewers are commercial. They brew so they can stay in business so they can brew. You're not going to see Mountain Goat brew a Berliner Weisse any time soon, and not that I'd want them to. I don't want a rye IPA today, a Flanders red tomorrow, a cal. common, hell a funky lager randalled through asparagus. I want that name brand (and not Goat, necessarily) to be what I expect of that name brand, when I belly up to the bar to plunk down a $10er. Commercial breweries are not going make new beers every week because they need consistency. Their punters need consistency. I've never had a VB that didn't taste exactly like the VB I had before it. It's a good thing. And I don't think it's entirely a risk of failure, it's more wanting to provide a consistently familiar product. I know homebrewers who are very good at brewing Weizen. They nail it hard every time. I like that. I like their familiarity and consistency in that style, as a brewer. 



Ross said:


> Pro brewers are unlikey to want to put their name to beers entered in a non-commercial comp as bad results could impact quite severely financially, so i guess you'd be unlikely to see many commercial beers entered into an open competition where all results are made public, but I really can't see a need from an "unfair advantage" angle to ban them & i'd personally love to see totally open comps with no restrictions. These were just a few things that come to mind & I'm keen to hear what people reckon from both sides of the fence.



Leave the pro vs. am tasting to your mates, or your bar, or your workspace. Let everyone around you know how great your beers are, and leave it at that.



Ross said:


> cheers Ross



Cheers


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## the_new_darren (20/9/11)

Bribie G said:


> Hi OLD Darren
> Ross does *not *hold the monopoly for Cryer Malt in Australia. I was talking to the Cryers themselves in NZ last year when I met them at Beervana, and came out with the same statement (believing it to be true at the time) and was very quickly given the rounds of the kitchen - I think things have changed since you got your dealership taken off you Dazz.



Briber,
I would like to get this straight once and for all.

I was offered the exclusive rights to Cryer Malt to HOMEBREWERS in Australia by David himself. 

I told him that i thought it was better that each state had their own representative.

He has therefore made a business decision and CHOSEN to use Ross and therefore he DOES have a monopoly.

To cut to the chase and to keep on topic....commercial brewers entering amateur competitions do have SIGNIFICANT advantages over the average homebrewer, especially as was pointed out in this thread, when the professional brewer DID NOT even make the beer but entered it under their name.

Its cheating Briber and perhaps you endorse it?

the_new_darren

EDIT: As I mentioned before when Ross opened his first can of hopped extract and made his first beer back on Grumpy's forum, he would have been the first to chuck a "hissy fit" if Grumpy's or Dr. Cooper enetered their worts in an Amateur comp.


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## Thirsty Boy (20/9/11)

Drew9242 said:


> I do think that it should be defined to home brews in the amatuer comp. I doubt that we could enter a beer into the comercial beer comp so why should they be entering in the amatuer comp.



The difference can be that with a home brewer brewer = brewery

Whereas thats not the case with a pro brewery. Homebrewers enter amatuer comps - Pro Breweries enter pro comps.

So that leaves a set of people, one of whom i am, that make someone elses beer for a living - but make their own beer for pleasure and as a hobby. We can see beers we helped to brew win a prize at a pro comp... But they aren't "our" beers.

I seriously doubt that you are going to see more than the very rare instance of someone who has genuine control and ceative input into beer development at a pro brewery, entering an amatuer comp with any beer of any description. Why would they? You enter comps, ultimately, to see if other people think your beers are good and get all warm and gooey inside when it turns out they do. If its "your" beer winning medals in the pro comp, and going over the bar in exchange for peoples hard earned cash, there's your self affirmation - the only thing entering an amatuer comp provides you with is an opportunity to have a non pro kick your arse. You get no kudos for winning and laughed at for losing. The only people interested are going to be those who aren't able to contribute at that level professionally in the first place - so their profession doesn't actually even extend to what the amatuer comps are about.

Sure there might be the odd weirdo out there who loves to win so much that they'll do whatever it takes.... But even then, they still have to actually win, and I agree that the advantages you have as a homebrewer far outweigh any that a pro brewer might have.

Homebreweries have the advantage, of that i am certain. The pro breweries in this country that can match the flexibility and control i have in my home system are few and far between.


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## np1962 (21/9/11)

the_new_darren said:


> Briber,
> I would like to get this straight once and for all.
> 
> I was offered the exclusive rights to Cryer Malt to HOMEBREWERS in Australia by David himself.
> ...



I love the smell of BULLSHIT in the morning!


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## winkle (21/9/11)

NigeP62 said:


> I love the smell of BULLSHIT in the morning!


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## the_new_darren (21/9/11)

NigeP62 said:


> I love the smell of BULLSHIT in the morning!




Read it and weep Nigel. BTW, do you sell Barrett Burston Ale?


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## np1962 (21/9/11)

the_new_darren said:


> Read it and weep Nigel. BTW, do you sell Barrett Burston Ale?


How many bags would you like? Can do a special price per pallett if you like...

I've just transferred several thousand dollars for last months grain orders to Cryer Malts, are you telling me I should of just paid it all to Craftbrewer?

Nige


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## bconnery (21/9/11)

the_new_darren said:


> Briber,
> I would like to get this straight once and for all.
> 
> I was offered the exclusive rights to Cryer Malt to HOMEBREWERS in Australia by David himself.
> ...


You've been claiming this, under one account or another, for years, but I've never seen any proof. 
You appear to be downgrading your claim though, once upon a time it was all malt, not just Cryer...

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=31194&st=0


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## Barley Belly (21/9/11)

bconnery said:


> You've been claiming this, under one account or another, for years, but I've never seen any proof.
> You appear to be downgrading your claim though, once upon a time it was all malt, not just Cryer...
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=31194&st=0



:icon_offtopic: 

This is wandering off topic again. Be careful the OP doesn't chastise you like he did me. Or is that just reserved for his non supporters/mates who post stuff he doesn't like???




Ross said:


> This thread, if you read the opening post, is about what advantages do a commercial brewer have over a home brewer. It has nothing to do with your statement here.
> 
> cheers Ross



Edit added quote from OP


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## Ross (21/9/11)

Barley Belly said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> This is wandering off topic again. Be careful the OP doesn't chastise you like he did me. Or is that just reserved for his non supporters/mates who post stuff he doesn't like???
> 
> ...



No chastising that i saw - You posted in big block letters your definitive statement that had nothing to do with the topic, I was just pointing it out.

+++

I gave up replying to Darrens bullshit long ago....  


+++

There's some great stuff being posted here... the thread becomes of little value to anyone when it becomes littered with personal crap.... so please keep on topic :beer: 


Cheers Ross


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## the_new_darren (21/9/11)

No thanks Nige,

Have plenty of cheap malt.

Its good to see that David changed his stance on this. I guess it was the reduction in 10 tonne/annum of malt going to HBers in Adelaide that contributed.

cheers

the_new_darren


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## drew9242 (21/9/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> The difference can be that with a home brewer brewer = brewery
> 
> Whereas thats not the case with a pro brewery. Homebrewers enter amatuer comps - Pro Breweries enter pro comps.
> 
> So that leaves a set of people, one of whom i am, that make someone elses beer for a living - but make their own beer for pleasure and as a hobby. We can see beers we helped to brew win a prize at a pro comp... But they aren't "our" beers.



I see your point, and i do aggree. I was trying to say that a beer brewed at home can be entered no matter where they work. I doubt many pro brewers would enter a beer in home brew comp it just doesn't add up (i believe ross did to make a statement and a flae in the rules). Why would they risk the chance of losing to the little home brewers. If you wanted to enter a beer brewed at home in a home brew comp i would welcome it, makes winning so much better.


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## Fatgodzilla (21/9/11)

The funny thing about this topic to me, is last weekend at the Castle Hill Beer Show, I joking said that people who brewed with an automated herms system or similiar (Braumeister thingy etc) had an unfair advantage over people who use plastic eskies as mash tuns and no electronic temperature controls and should be in a seperate class. A brief debate (bullshit session) followed, but how far off the mark was I? Does the equipment at our groundswell level really make a different to the quality or otherwise of the beer we make? My assessment is NO. Some people invest thousands in equipment and still brew no better than the neanderthals like me. (I think my new 40l Birko is so high tech!). Some people have a vastly superior knowledge of the science of beer making and still don't make consistently great beers. 

A previous comment made was both commercial brewing systems and home brewing systems have advantages over the other. Each make product for totally different markets. I'm still happy to drink Tooheys, JS, Fat Yak and Coopers products and others because I like beer. But I make my brews that are nothing like any of the commercials offerings (some cruel people will say I make stuff that are nothing like beer).

So Ross, to have my final say on your thread topic, its not the machinery that makes the beer, it's the man. Neither the commercial or amateur brewer has an absolute advantage over the other as generally speaking, they don't make the same product. Their markets are different - totally different. The real test is to use what advantages you have to make the best outcome you desire. And not worry whether you think the other bloke has some kind of advantage over you. That's none of your business!
:icon_cheers:


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## stephenkentucky (21/9/11)

So Ross, to have my final say on your thread topic, its not the machinery that makes the beer, it's the man. Neither the commercial or amateur brewer has an absolute advantage over the other as generally speaking, they don't make the same product. Their markets are different - totally different. The real test is to use what advantages you have to make the best outcome you desire. And not worry whether you think the other bloke has some kind of advantage over you. That's none of your business!
:icon_cheers:
[/quote]

My 2c worth for that is probably it's value....I have read with interest the previous posts, and must confess here that I have gone "commercial"... I brew on a 50lt Braumeister now and only make 3 kegs a week, I often joke that our brewery is so small that we brew the beer one day and the head the next. my recent purchase of a braumeister follows nearly thirty years of brewing using coppers and esky's, many of the recipes I use date back over 20 years and owe more to Dave Line than modern brewing science, although I now brew commercially, I still regard myself as a home brewer at heart and owe much to the generosity of the home brew fraternity and the brotherhood of beer. I want to note that over the years as a brewer and beer judge I have met many commercial brewers, and can say that all who I have met share the same goals and aspirations as home brewers, based in a love of real beer. If anything they are placed at a significant disadvantage in competitions as they are invariably slaves to the accountants cruel red pen and have to answer to owners and shareholders. The art of brewing is one of the most egalitarian...hobbies/jobs one can participate in as there are few advantages in either the commercial or amatuer field which are unavailable to either. The healthy trickle down of knowledge is something which simply does not occur in other industries which share similarities...I note the wine industry, of which there is a poisonous distrust of sharing knowledge...which is to the detriment of all involved. Ours is a blessed realm where people can engage in healthy debate and still have a beer together at the end of the day, we are lucky in that respect. While I understand the perceived advantage that amatuers see in the commercial brewers quiver, I feel that there is far more we share than that which would be defined as our differences. If we as a group wish to define ourselves by our differences rather than our shared passion, we run the risk of alienating the others (commercial brewers) at our cost. If it is so galling to some that commercial brewers be allowed to participate in brewing contests, give them their own catagories...but please do not preclude their entry, as we all have much to learn from each other. To be honest that there is no magical ability or method I now posses because I now brew as a professional, All that I am as a brewer was well and truly defined in the copper and esky days, and my brews are not one jot better or worse than they were at that time.
yours in brewing 
Stephen


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## Barley Belly (21/9/11)

:icon_offtopic: 



Ross said:


> No chastising that i saw - You posted in big block letters your definitive statement that had nothing to do with the topic, I was just pointing it out.



My bad

Sorry dude

I'll try to follow the rules, seeing that you are such a stickler for them and all :icon_cheers: 

:icon_offtopic:


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## Millet Man (21/9/11)

Personally I'd say brewing on a 36HL system at work is totally different to when I pull out the stock pots and urns to make a test batch. Commercial brewing is designed to do what it does and supply a product that the market wants, home brewing has much more freedom in styles and mash regimes.

As for brewing skill, which I think is the key issue of comparing pro v amatuer, my home brewing knowledge was very useful when I switched to commercial brewing but there was a lot to learn about making this specific brewery work to make the best, most consistent beer possible. A lot of that is about quantities, temperatures, times and hitting targets repeatably....and cleaning, cleaning, cleaning. Does that new knowledge make me a better home brewer and give me an unfair advantage? I don't think so as on a homebrew scale it is more about how well you know THAT system and how to control it to do what you want. My homebrew setup is very basic compared to a lot of the systems on here.

However, once I started commercial brewing I stopped entering comps as I didn't feel right about it. I don't have an issue with pro brewers / brewery employees entering comps in general but in my case where I am an owner, recipe designer and brewer I choose to abstain.

The only regret I have is that no other creative gluten free home brewers have stepped up to the challenge of taking on "normal" brewers at competitions!

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Snow (21/9/11)

Silo Ted said:


> The advantage that a professional brewer has is more practical hours of experience logged. This just can't be 'switched off' if he decides to brew on amateur equipment. Just as a professional athlete couldn't possibly switch off his years of training if he wants to run in an amateur carnival.



Not necessarily. I have been amateur brewing for over 20 years. I'm pretty sure i've got more brewing hours under my belt than many commercial craft brewers. I can brew better beer than lots of commercial beers I've tried. I also have the advantage of brewing many different styles and variations of styles, which most commercial brewers don't get the chance to do. 

In addition, just because a commercial brewer has many "practical" hours of brewing under his/her belt, doesn't mean they brew beer well enough to win prizes in comps. 

Cheers - Snow


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## reVoxAHB (21/9/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Whereas thats not the case with a pro brewery. Homebrewers enter amatuer comps - Pro Breweries enter pro comps.


This is a great distinction, TB: _ers vs. ies_. The beer produced in a Pro Brewery isn't made by 1 man or 1 brewer as it is at home, typically. Around the time of my last contract, I was often asked in social situations where my commercial beer was on draught, "Is that your BEER X? Did you brew BEER X?" to which I would say, "The beer passed through many hands at the brewery. I may have brewed it on the day, another brewer likely dry hopped it, and yet another may have transferred to bright tank. And then there's filtration, the 6 folks in the packaging dept. etc."

Product coming out of pro/commercial breweries has been produced by many persons and should therefore compete with other breweries, in comparable arrangement. AIBA works well for us, for example. When I make a beer at home, and every single step in the process has been made by my hands alone, I'm happy to put that beer up against other homebrew_ers _ who have done the same.


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## HoppingMad (21/9/11)

I'm a homebrewer and not a commercial brewer. 

In the past few weeks I've had the good fortune of being able to put a brew through at a craft brewery. Doing that was a real eye-opener.

I can 100% agree with Ross's opening comments, particularly when it comes to controlling your brew more in a backyard setup.

I was looking to do a lot of things on my homebrew recipe typically done in my own backyard set-up, such as step mashing, high ferments and certain types of hop additions, but the brewery wasn't actually capable of doing a lot of this, so we had to think laterally and find ways to get around it.

What I realised during my experience is commercials (or this one in particular at least) are set-up to make particular types of beers, not experiment to the extent that we do. We have the flexibility in our little pots, pans and burners out back that you don't fully realise until someone hands you the keys to their big brewery and says 'Go for it.' You need to work within their parameters and often they're not as flexible as ours. 

For example ask any commercial brewer if they have a set up capable of doing a decoction mash easily - you would find plenty that would struggle (yes there are a few that can- I'll admit), but there are heaps of backyarders out there doing them without a fuss. We have more freedom in our hands than we would realise. We just come up with an idea and pretty much can do it. Many commercial guys can't do that unless they tinker away at home.

Personally if a commercial guy makes a beer at home, I don't see a problem with it as long as they are not involving their work set-up or taking home wort or house yeast - but rather using the same things we would. I actually encouraged one assistant guy during my brewery visit to start making beers at home and enter comps as I thought it was legit. Was I wrong?

Hopper.


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## Nick JD (21/9/11)

Having a team of microbiologists and biochemists and a lab gives you an advantage.

Seems to me the real issue here is that small-fry people like Ross are lumped with megabreweries.

Not sure whether Ross has a mass spectrometer to analyse diacetyl levels to ppm. 

And at least we now know why the hell he brews S189 at 19C! :blink: 

If you want, Ross - you can borrow my 19L pot.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (21/9/11)

Nick JD said:


> <snip>
> And at least we now know why the hell he brews S189 at 19C! :blink:



Nae a truer work spake.

The fact that Ross quite openly says (in person and here) that s189 (and swiss lager yeast when I last purchased it) is fine at 19 deg, shows that the "equipment" limitation applies even to smaller breweries.

And truth be known - any brewery big or small can produce a good APA - it's not rocket science. Get malt out of grain, chuck in a shedload of hops, ferment somewhere betwee 15 and 21 degrees (I didn't even bother with temp control in the cooler months here is SEQ), chuck in another shedload, gas and serve.

It's only the constitution of the shed that changes.

Goomba


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## jayse (23/9/11)

I don't think you can fairly compare as theres just too many variables, what are we comparing, The state of the art Campus brewery with every bell and whistle you could imagine against bribies biab bag? I don't know where to start so I won't.


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## Murcluf (23/9/11)

have to totally agree with Jayse on this one way too many variables to be able to make a strong case either way, but......

One thing I have noticed over the years with the people I've met through brewing, is the more hands on in the process of creating a beer, the more passionate and knowledgeable the brewer and usually someone who makes a cracking beer to boot, regardless of them being either pro or am


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## argon (23/9/11)

In my opinion no-one has and advantage. Both the Home brewer or the Commercial Brewer have equal opportunity to target a particular beer they wish to produce. They both have the opportunity to educate themselves, spend as much as they're willing.

Commercially, the consideration of having to satisfy a market is a self imposed restriction. If you want to win awards in competitions, then focus on that. Don't use the excuse of having to satisfying the market as a restriction, it's a focus. Equally Homebrewers can adjust their focus to the competition away from other things. 

So i believe it's an equal playing field. I don't complain that i'm competing against someone that can afford the latest automated gear and a brewing education, who has all the time in the world to perfect there hobby.


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## Nick JD (23/9/11)

Can I enter my beers in professional competitions?


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## yardy (23/9/11)

i'm not sure.... do they have a fucktard category ?


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## Guysmiley54 (23/9/11)

yardy said:


> i'm not sure.... do they have a fucktard category ?



Ow... you just got burned!!


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## the_new_darren (23/9/11)

Nick JD said:


> Can I enter my beers in professional competitions?



Depends on your ethics I guess?

If you are using your brewery to sell alcoholic beverages to the community under licence then I guess you can?

The distinction comes with "individuals" entering beer into a homebrew competitions that was produced on commercial (ie alcoholic beverage for sale to the public) equipment. Those individuals are not homebrewers unless their beer was produced on a completely different set of equipment OR reduced in water.

I imagine that these would be the minimal requirements of the ATO and liquor licencing?

the_new_darren


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## KillerRx4 (23/9/11)

Nick JD said:


> Can I enter my beers in professional competitions?



No. But I can't either. Whats your point?


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## the_new_darren (23/9/11)

KillerRx4 said:


> No. But I can't either. Whats your point?



Nicks point is that the OP was Ross, who producers commercially available beer. Ross for whatever reason benowned to him decided to enter a series (aka carpetbomber) of beers into an amateur beer makers competition.

Again, Nicks point is, and should be considered by organisers of amateur homebrewer competitions in Australia, 

IF YOUR ARE PRODUCING and SELLING BEER/ALCOHOL ON A COMMERCIAL BASIS THEN YOU DONOT QUALIFY AS AN AMATEUR BREWER.

And to keep this on topic and "keep to the rules":

How many of Ross's FWK won prizes in the Qld comp? (ie those that took one home and fermented it?

I guess that would be the best test of Pro V Amateur!!

Speak up please those that won a prize!!

cheers

the_new_darren


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## bradsbrew (23/9/11)

the_new_darren said:


> Nicks point is that the OP was Ross, who producers commercially available beer. Ross for whatever reason benowned to him decided to enter a series (aka carpetbomber) of beers into an amateur beer makers competition.
> 
> Again, Nicks point is, and should be considered by organisers of amateur homebrewer competitions in Australia,
> 
> ...


Darren, I am pretty sure Ross' FWK's are available nationally which makes it a problem at a national comp level. Also the way your statement in bold reads is if some works in a bottlo or bar the cant enter.

Cheers
the_same_brad

edit= for what its worth I think the professional brewery has the upper hand when it comes to brewing the same beer consistently.


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## the_new_darren (23/9/11)

Hey Brad,

Perhaps it should have read PRODUCES. I will see if its still ok to edit.

cheers_the_new_darren

EDIT: Thats what I was asking. How many others who used the Ross FWK won prizes????


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## bradsbrew (23/9/11)

the_new_darren said:


> Hey Brad,
> 
> Perhaps it should have read PRODUCES. I will see if its still ok to edit.
> 
> ...



That is where the problem is, if someone uses a proprietry made FWK and enters a comp will they admit it?


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## the_new_darren (23/9/11)

The way i see it the FWK will not travel well or cheaply so a "regional" FWK will most probably be competing against other FWK from that very same region. Sure they might do well in a local comp but most probably will not fare at all well at distant locations (hence why I was asking who else won a comp with the Ross FWK or was it just Ross and again referring back to the OP question)

I did notice in a previous thread that Ross mentioned that he wanted "kits" out of Aussie HB competitions but was voted out 1 to 7 by the organising committee????? but he still went ahead and entered??? as himself???. (perhaps he missed the bit about HIM entering HIS own commercially produced "kits" due to transparency and ethics??

Ross, how much to post one of your FWK to SA?

cheers

the_new_darren


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## bradsbrew (23/9/11)

What's the difference between Ross entering one of his kits and Joe bloggs entering one of Ross' kits? Unless thats where the proffessional advantage comes into play?

Cheers


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## argon (23/9/11)

the_new_darren said:


> I did notice in a previous thread that Ross mentioned that he wanted "kits" out of Aussie HB competitions but was voted out 1 to 7 by the organising committee????? but he still went ahead and entered??? as himself???. (perhaps he missed the bit about HIM entering HIS own commercially produced "kits" due to transparency and ethics??
> 
> Ross, how much to post one of your FWK to SA?
> 
> ...


You just don't get it do ya? Pro-active protest you numbskull. I'm sure if ross were to sent you a fwk it would probably be pubed... So I wouldn't go about ordering one if I were you.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/9/11)

bradsbrew said:


> What's the difference between Ross entering one of his kits and Joe bloggs entering one of Ross' kits? Unless thats where the proffessional advantage comes into play?
> 
> Cheers



Not if you're choosing to ferment at 19C.

All "professional" stuff is gone - a bit like not using your bright tank.

Goomba


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## the_new_darren (23/9/11)

Brad,

Unless others can repeat Ross's success using his kits then it answers the OP question?


So please speak up anyone else that used one and won a prize!


Otherwise one might suspect that his bottles were filtered, carbonated and CPBF on a production line as well?

cheers

the_new_darren


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## the_new_darren (23/9/11)

argon said:


> You just don't get it do ya? Pro-active protest you numbskull. I'm sure if ross were to sent you a fwk it would probably be pubed... So I wouldn't go about ordering one if I were you.




Nah, I dont much. Are you saying if I ordered a Ross FWK to SA via someone else it would be pubed?

I was just asking what it would cost for 20 litres of 1.045 wort from Ross's production facility to be sent to SA?

cheers

the_new_darren


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## bradsbrew (23/9/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Not if you're choosing to ferment at 19C.
> 
> All "professional" stuff is gone - a bit like not using your bright tank.
> 
> Goomba




I don't understand your point? Nothing wrong with 19 deg ferment especially if it is in a commercial setting.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/9/11)

bradsbrew said:


> I don't understand your point? Nothing wrong with 19 deg ferment especially if it is in a commercial setting.



Point was that anyone of us - even without temp control, could have fermented at 19C (or below) in winter.

And he obviously chooses not to use other professional advantages.

Therefore he enters his beer (from FWK) fermented under the same condition as others who would be considered truly amateur.


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## Thirsty Boy (24/9/11)

the_new_darren said:


> Brad,
> 
> Unless others can repeat Ross's success using his kits then it answers the OP question?
> 
> ...


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## Nick JD (24/9/11)

Ross told me a few months back in a thread that he himself doesn't actually doing the "brewing", one of his team in his brewery does - which kind of agrees with what I see when I'm in there.

Surely this is another big key point? 

Can I employ someone to make beers and them enter them? If I can, then I'd like to employ the brewers at Weihenstephan.

With all due respect (please don't spit in my grain :wub if you make a living employing people to brew beer, you're a professional brewer no matter how slap-happy (fermenting lagers in rubbish bins at 19C) you choose to be.


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## Silo Ted (24/9/11)

argon said:


> You just don't get it do ya? Pro-active protest you numbskull. I'm sure if ross were to sent you a fwk it would probably be pubed... So I wouldn't go about ordering one if I were you.



Pro-active (not so) viral marketing more like it. It's all very clever, if you examine it from another angle.


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## mje1980 (24/9/11)

Jesus guys, is a sash really worth all this??


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## Silo Ted (24/9/11)

mje1980 said:


> Jesus guys, is a sash really worth all this??



Maybe. <_<


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## Pat Casey (25/9/11)

the_new_darren said:


> Briber,
> I would like to get this straight once and for all.
> 
> I was offered the exclusive rights to Cryer Malt to HOMEBREWERS in Australia by David himself.
> ...



Funny, I've been selling Cryer malts for a while now.

I always thought homebrew competitions were meant for amateur brewers, professional brewers/commercial breweries have their own competitions. 

In the main, people who buy wort kits are not interested in competitions. Bit sad though, someone entering a wort kit in a competition in order to win something.

Pat
Absolute Homebrew
Facebook


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

The issue of the Amateur/Commercial Brewers entering Competitions in Qld and therefore the AABC will have to be taken to the QAAWBG AGM in February next year. That is where the decision will have to be made. The view after the 2011 competition was for example, Although Ross brewed his beer in a commercial environment instead of at home but in this case, he was a member of the QAAWBG before he was a commercial brewer. As a member he has the right to compete just like everyone else. 

For anyone who wishes to put forward suggestions concerning this topic, I will be able to take them to the 23rd of October Meeting


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## MarkBastard (4/10/11)

the_new_darren said:


> I was offered the exclusive rights to Cryer Malt to HOMEBREWERS in Australia by David himself.



Were these the malt bags you found incredibly heavy?


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## VBisGod (4/10/11)

i do, because i am better than the pros  . they do it for a job........how boring would having a job be.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/10/11)

Blmn Mvls said:


> Although* Ross brewed his beer in a commercial environment instead of at home* but in this case, he was a member of the QAAWBG before he was a commercial brewer. As a member he has the right to compete just like everyone else.


Your point is ?????
Quote "but in this case, he was a member of the QAAWBG before he was a commercial brewer. As a member he has the right to compete just like everyone else." 
I can not see your reasoning here ???
I was a boy scout many years ago ! but if I rolled up now to a meeting I would be thrown out or worse.
This sounds like one person pushing his own agenda to me. I dont see much support for Ross from other pro brewers, understandably.
Nev


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## Batz (4/10/11)

Blmn Mvls said:


> The issue of the Amateur/Commercial Brewers entering Competitions in Qld and therefore the AABC will have to be taken to the QAAWBG AGM in February next year. That is where the decision will have to be made. The view after the 2011 competition was for example, Although Ross brewed his beer in a commercial environment instead of at home but in this case, he was a member of the QAAWBG before he was a commercial brewer. As a member he has the right to compete just like everyone else.




I don't get this either? So if your a QAAWBG member you get special support in comps??


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/10/11)

Batz said:


> I don't get this either? So if your a QAAWBG member you get special support in comps??


With that thinking how can you lose ?
Lets all join the QAAWBG ! :blink: 
Nev


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

Ok, I see your point there. We had a conversation just as the competition was starting about whether the beer would have been brewed at work or not. As he didn't win the Champion or Reserve, it didn't pose as much of a problem as we thought it would. He did however win Champion for 2011, but there was some beautiful beer in the entries. 

It has to be brought to the attention of the whole committee. The wine comp, after it was over it was brought to my attention that some of the wine entries were made by school students not the member in question. The member was their science teacher who entered as part of their class. I then found out that there were two of them. So it is a topic that is being brought up anyway. 

The agenda at this meeting in October is going to be huge!


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

As for the Fresh Wort Kit question, There were 4 of the same worts made by different brewers. Mine won Champion Beer, Kit, and the Champion Novice was this beer also. I didn't think about it that closely until then.

The Reserve Champion was a mash, from PUBS. 

This subject is also on the agenda for the October meeting.


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

Yeah, well actually you sort of do in the Queensland arena. It is the Association which supports all of the local shows etc. and the QLD comps.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (4/10/11)

Blmn Mvls said:


> Ok, I see your point there. We had a conversation just as the competition was starting about whether the beer would have been brewed at work or not. As he didn't win the Champion or Reserve, it didn't pose as much of a problem as we thought it would. He did however win Champion for 2011, but there was some beautiful beer in the entries.
> 
> It has to be brought to the attention of the whole committee. The wine comp, after it was over it was brought to my attention that some of the wine entries were made by school students not the member in question. The member was their science teacher who entered as part of their class. I then found out that there were two of them. So it is a topic that is being brought up anyway.
> 
> The agenda at this meeting in October is going to be huge!


I hope you get this QAAWBG comp cleaned up before it becomes a free for all joke.
Wish you the best.
Nev


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

There will be big changes at the end of this year, for next year. It has been a long time coming, but it is in the works. Details haven't quite been released yet.


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## the_new_darren (4/10/11)

So yu are Ross advetising on an internet site? Posing as an amateur brewer? entering in homebrew comps?

Homegrown malts have always been the best and it is confusing why we are "convinced" that we need to buy imported malts at roughly the same price as bags of Aussie grown and malted, malt. 

Worse still is why we need, as a homebrewer, to rely on suppliers who generally don't live in barley growing regions of the globe?

Is it all about transport for thise who live in Qld? Is it about how those who see silos filled with malt but cannot buy a single mash worth?

Is it about cornering the market? Is it about Dr. Cooper? Is it about science?

Perhaps it is about "kit producers" perhaps its because a love of brewing?

What I see is Ross has crossed the line on the basis of ethics on the Pro v Amatuer comps.

If he had any balls he would have "tackled" the Pro comp organisers, and not carpet-bombed the amateur comp.

Obviously the starter of this thread is not an amateur brewer. If he entered in the QAAWBG being a commercial brewer and was on the organising committe and won several prizes there are conflict issues and ethical problems.

What advantages do Pro v Amatuer have in homebrew comps?

I will let you answer the question!

cheers

the_new_darren


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

Ha, have to giggle at that one. No I am not Ross incognito. 
Ross isn't on the organising committee for the QAAWBG, but is a BABB Member and their club is a member of our club Guild.

I have now added both the fresh wort and commercial issues to the agenda in an email to all secretaries in the SE Qld area. The main issue will be the merging of the QABC and QAAWBG Competitions into one. All these issues will will have to be resolved by the end of the meeting.

At least now I am on here, it is good to see other perspectives. 
:icon_cheers:


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

Oh, and for the record, I am a 'Kit Master' now......!!!!!!!  

OOH, and I'm up one more little keg now.......


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## keifer33 (4/10/11)

Blmn Mvls said:


> Oh, and for the record, I am a 'Kit Master' now......!!!!!!!
> 
> OOH, and I'm up one more little keg now.......




I think that comes from all the double and triple posting. There are edit and delete buttons


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

Thank you, I am new to this


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## the_new_darren (4/10/11)

Blmn Mvls said:


> Oh, and for the record, I am a 'Kit Master' now......!!!!!!!



Just wondering did you use malt from Qld? 

Perhaps your next kit will be banana and pineapple juice?

Perhaps peanut brew?

Dont you worry about that?

cheers

the_new_darren


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

Might use a Quince too...

At this point I buy my malt from Brewer's Choice, so wherever he buys his supplies from.

If I make BBQ beer it is a kit usually, but show beers I make from the schedule and are mostly mashed.

Lemon and Lime Lagers go down very well in the heat of the Queensland summer.

:icon_cheers:


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## the_new_darren (4/10/11)

Blmn Mvls said:


> Might use a Quince too...
> 
> At this point I buy my malt from Brewer's Choice, so wherever he buys his supplies from.
> 
> :icon_cheers:



Great, if you can find out where those malts were grown it would be greatly appreciated by all in the forum.

There is nothing quite like fresh malt!

cheers

the_new_darren


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

Well this is true, but a little off topic don't you think?
:icon_offtopic:


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## the_new_darren (4/10/11)

Blmn Mvls said:


> Well this is true




Where do you buy your malts from?

What is your source (ie where is it grown and malted?)?

You seem so vocal on the forum and I am interested.

cheers

the_new_darren


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

I am usually vocal in the actual home brewing community, and have now chosen to do so in the online community because a lot of our members are on here.

Just for arguments sake, I shall email David tomorrow and inquire from which regions he purchases the malt. Would you like to know who transports it also?

I see why the comment on your profile is please leave.........


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

And back to the topic at hand, these commercial issues only really came up as a major thing this year. The fresh wort issue has been tossed around for a while.


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## the_new_darren (4/10/11)

Its sad that Blmn Mvls feels this way. Obviously the poster feels insignificant in some way and feels better in justifying that a commercial brewer has entered a HB comp and peddling their wares!

Sure give david a call, perhaps you should mention influenza?

cheers

the_new_darren


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## Janelle Kerr (4/10/11)

The fact is his beer didn't win, the reserve also beat his beer. Next year I would say that it will be a stated rule that entries must be brewed at home and by the entrant. (there is something along the latter lines, but i'm not going looking for it).

I just don't take well to abrasive people at this hour of the night.

However, this subject will be resolved shortly so it will become therefore a non-issue.


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## stillscottish (5/10/11)

Blmn Mvls said:


> The fact is his beer didn't win, the reserve also beat his beer.



He may not have won Champion Beer but from the published results in one of your previous posts in another thread 

QAAWBG QAAWBG
Reserve Champion Brewer 2011 Champion Brewer 2011
Janelle Kerr LABG 22 Points Ross Kenrick BABB 37 Points

and

George Dowie Trophy Ross Kenrick BABB


:unsure:

edit: clarity.


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## Janelle Kerr (5/10/11)

Champion Beer and Champion Brewer are different. He entered more beers than me.


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## stillscottish (5/10/11)

RULES AND CONDITIONS
Entries must be the product of the person entering


Does that include those made by a person employed by the person that entered them but it's ok bcs he owns the commercial equipment used in their production??


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## Janelle Kerr (5/10/11)

Are involved with the home brew competition scene directly?


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## Nick JD (5/10/11)

FWK brewing needs its own category.


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## Janelle Kerr (5/10/11)

That is an option


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## MarkBastard (5/10/11)

I don't go in comps or intend to ever, so feel free to disregard this completely, but why not have a category to cover home brewed all grain beers? You could allow for adjuncts as they fit a certain description that excludes anything created as a brew kit (FWK, Goop tins etc).

I could care less about any other category. Are there really comps for who makes the best Coopers kits for example? Or who makes the best FWK? Seems pretty stupid.


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## Nick JD (5/10/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I could care less about any other category. Are there really comps for who makes the best Coopers kits for example? Or who makes the best FWK? Seems pretty stupid.



It's all in the way you sprinkle the yeast. Previous winners have been shown to use a left-handed, sprinkle resembling the Queen's wave. 

Seriously though - if you employ people to make FWKs and take them home to ferment them ... the victory is going to be either a bit hollow, or a great marketing ploy, dunno which, probably both.


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## Silo Ted (5/10/11)

Nick JD said:


> It's all in the way you sprinkle the yeast. Previous winners have been shown to use a left-handed, sprinkle resembling the Queen's wave.
> 
> Seriously though - if you employ people to make FWKs and take them home to ferment them ... the victory is going to be either a bit hollow, or a great marketing ploy, dunno which, probably both.


Marketing ploy... Quite clever really.


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## MarkBastard (5/10/11)

Yeah I dunno, does anyone take these comps heaps seriously? It'd be interesting to 'audit' the process by deliberately entering some re-bottled commercial beers that are widely regarded as perfect examples of category.


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## edschache (5/10/11)

If people can't enter a FWK because someone else made the worth then can you not enter an AG if someone else malted the grain? What if someone else grew the grain or hops. What if someone in your local council is responsible for maintaining the quality of your water supply?

IMHO (as someone who's never entered a comp and is new to the scene) I think that a good beer is a good beer. Quite frankly I don't care if it was made in 20L or 2000L batch. If a FWK is better than your AG then maybe you need to get some pro-tips from Ross about making your AG better.

I have attended one BABBs meeting (been meaning to get back) and have tasted one of the beers that Ross entered into a mini comp. It has to be one of the best beers I've ever tasted and that's all that matters to me. 

At the end of the day it's a hobby and comps are for fun and education (IMHO). If we can learn from people that brew beer every day then that's a bonus.

Cheers,

Ed


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (5/10/11)

edschache said:


> If people can't enter a FWK because someone else made the worth then can you not enter an AG if someone else malted the grain? What if someone else grew the grain or hops. What if someone in your local council is responsible for maintaining the quality of your water supply?
> 
> IMHO (as someone who's never entered a comp and is new to the scene) I think that a good beer is a good beer. Quite frankly I don't care if it was made in 20L or 2000L batch. If a FWK is better than your AG then maybe you need to get some pro-tips from Ross about making your AG better.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, I find your reasoning flawed, though I applaud what you say about it being for fun. And honestly, I reckon that it should be open to all brewers even professional.

But as the rules stand, as commonsense says and in the spirit of sportsmanship - FWK cannot be in.

Saying that "If people can't enter a FWK because someone else made the worth then can you not enter an AG if someone else malted the grain?" doesn't make sense. It's like saying to a pastry chef that if he doesn't grind his own flour or churn his own butter, then he's not making a pastry. Or that someone who goes to Aldi, gets a pastry from the freezer and puts it in the oven, is equivalent in skill to him.

FWK "brewing" involves no control over ingredients, process, creativity, brewing skill or anything else, except in the choice of yeast (if they do choose it). The same as reheating a pastry in the oven requires little cooking skill.

I would feel deeply offended if my brother (who uses FWK because he's too lazy to brew) said to me that he has as much brewing skill as me. Fortunately, despite his lazy streak, he does have some common sense.

As I stated, I reckon that comps should be open to all - I would like to challenge any pro brewer/brewery and I reckon that some brewers here (who are truly amateur) would have the measure of many pros.

Goomba


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## MarkBastard (5/10/11)

The way I see it the analogy is false because brewers (commercial and home all grain brewers) aren't farmers. Brewers pretty much choose ingredientas (grains, hops, yeast, water, adjuncts) and use them. They don't have to make the base ingredients.

However you should actually have to brew to be in a brewing comp, and adding yeast isn't brewing.


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## kymba (5/10/11)

wouldn't it be easier to have just 2 categories - pre-bittered & uh, not pre-bittered 

it would cover every type of brewing - if any part of the ingredients were boiled by a commercial entity to impart bitterness, you go into a group together

just sayin...


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## benno1973 (5/10/11)

I believe that commercial systems have the benefit of reproducability, and commercial brewers have a lot more tools at hand that the homebrewer would like to have access to. This is balanced by the flexibility of small scale homebrew systems, so it's horses for courses really.

I believe that professional brewers should be allowed to enter comps, as long as they brew the beer themselves regardless of what system they use. However if the comp is advertised as an amateur comp, that speaks for itself really.

And I believe that Darren is a tool.

At least one of these things is blindingly obvious to me.


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## MarkBastard (5/10/11)

Kaiser Soze said:


> And I believe that Darren is a tool.
> 
> At least one of these things is blindingly obvious to me.



I dunno, I looked up the dictionary and it looks like tools can be useful. Darren on the other hand is never useful.


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## Silo Ted (5/10/11)

kymba said:


> wouldn't it be easier to have just 2 categories - pre-bittered & uh, not pre-bittered
> 
> it would cover every type of brewing - if any part of the ingredients were boiled by a commercial entity to impart bitterness, you go into a group together
> 
> just sayin...


I thought calling it a BREWING comp covers the bases. 

Anyway, this has nothing to do with whats being discussed, its about how super awesome those fwk brews are, and how everyone should give ross more of their money, love and religious devotion


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## kymba (5/10/11)

Silo Ted said:


> I thought calling it a BREWING comp covers the bases.
> 
> Anyway, this has nothing to do with whats being discussed, its about how super awesome those fwk brews are, and how everyone should give ross more of their money, love and religious devotion



i'm still not sure if this thread is massive troll, beginning with post 1. each of the 8 pages is discussing something different, then darren showed up and...


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/10/11)

Kaiser Soze said:


> I believe that professional brewers should be allowed to enter comps, as long as they brew the beer themselves regardless of what system they use. However if the comp is advertised as an amateur comp, that speaks for itself really.


Any beer brewed in a licensed brewery and is subject to Excise tax on the alcohol content..
This makes the beer a commercial product not a home brew, so it is impossible for Ross to produce an amateur beer on his licensed brewery.
If excise was paid its commercial.
If excise wasnt paid that would be illegal.  
Nev


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## benno1973 (5/10/11)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Any beer brewed in a licensed brewery and is subject to Excise tax on the alcohol content..
> This makes the beer a commercial product not a home brew, so it is impossible for Ross to produce an amateur beer on his licensed brewery.



Is that right? I'm not having a go, just am interested - it's not possible to brew a personal batch of beer on a commercial system? Do commercial systems have to be licenced and every beer produced by them incurs excise?


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## Fents (5/10/11)

you can still brew WORT and not pay excise, its when you ferment that wort to create alcohol then it becomes subject to excise tax.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/10/11)

Kaiser Soze said:


> Is that right? I'm not having a go, just am interested - it's not possible to brew a personal batch of beer on a commercial system? Do commercial systems have to be licenced and every beer produced by them incurs excise?


The breweryusually holds a producers licence which covers the whole building. Any alcohol produced is taxable.
You could in theory brew a personal batch but it will be taxed  therefore commercial.
The tax dept will also audit your records on grain used etc and see if you have been a little bit dishonest  
I have seen it happen.
Nev


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## MarkBastard (5/10/11)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> The breweryusually holds a producers licence which covers the whole building. Any alcohol produced is taxable.
> You could in theory brew a personal batch but it will be taxed  therefore commercial.
> The tax dept will also audit your records on grain used etc and see if you have been a little bit dishonest
> I have seen it happen.
> Nev



Ross sells grain direct to the public, and sells FWK's.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/10/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Ross sells grain direct to the public, and sells FWK's.


They would have to be different entities.
Nev


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (5/10/11)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> They would have to be different entities.
> Nev



What? Bacchus Brewing and Craftbrewer?

Goomba


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## winkle (5/10/11)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> What? Bacchus Brewing and Craftbrewer?
> 
> Goomba



Yes (AFAIK) three seperate business, check the website - Pub shop is the other one.


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## MarkBastard (5/10/11)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> They would have to be different entities.
> Nev



But you said it covers the whole building?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/10/11)

Mark^Bastard said:


> But you said it covers the whole building?


Usually the licensed area for production and bonded area is marked on a plan and ok'd by the liquor licensing dept.
Running other business from the same building, I dont know about.


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## MHB (5/10/11)

As interesting as the inner workings of the QLD home brewing fraternity are, this is seriously Off Topic.
In keeping with the whole Off Topic theme: -
Sounds like you guys are going to have an interesting meeting, has anyone considered that the rules are set by the AABC.
As far as I know anyone hosting/organising a competition that will be a qualifying competition for the Nationals must agree to abide by the rules of the AABC you dont get to make up your own! The only way to get the rules changed is by a vote of the AABC delegates, you may make suggestions to your delegates, but frankly thats about all.
Each state has (I believe) 2 delegates Ross is one of yours.

Can I suggest that this thread be either closed or split, I was following the Pro/Am discussion with interest, of which I have very little in what you guys in QLD think of your state comp.
Mark


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## winkle (5/10/11)

MHB said:


> As interesting as the inner workings of the QLD home brewing fraternity are, this is seriously Off Topic.
> In keeping with the whole Off Topic theme: -
> Sounds like you guys are going to have an interesting meeting, has anyone considered that the rules are set by the AABC.
> As far as I know anyone hosting/organising a competition that will be a qualifying competition for the Nationals must agree to abide by the rules of the AABC you dont get to make up your own! The only way to get the rules changed is by a vote of the AABC delegates, you may make suggestions to your delegates, but frankly thats about all.
> ...



Ditto (and to think this one started to get away from the other thread).


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## ekul (5/10/11)

Of the five brewers i know who brew properly (ie not knk fermented at 25+C) i can say honestly that every single one of them has a produced at least one beer that i have thought is miles above any commercial beer that i've ever tried. The best beer i ever tried was a homebrewed beer from bundaberg. 

This means that either i got lucky and have found the best five brewers in the country (were) living within driving distance of me, or that every homebrewer has the advantage over a commercial brewer. Ass good as those blokes are at brewing i think its the latter.

Commercial brewers probably have the advantage when it comes to clarity though


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## DUANNE (5/10/11)

how many home brewers can brew 5-10 different beers every week( assuming minimums here). week in week out? i would say not many.being that in many styles a fresh beer is very advantagious (apa,mild, bitter,ipa off the top of my head) this can make an absolutly huge difference.i can brew 2 beers in a temp controlled enviroment at a time, assuming they both require the same temp.so 2 beers every 3 weeks or so. would it be an advantage to put down 5 brews in one week and keep them temp controlled? this is not mentioning being able to cherry pick between however many versions of the same brew to find the best one. we did 5 ipa's this week wich will i chose to enter? the results speak for themselves to me in this case, was there an advantage? look at the score board , obvious isnt it! once a person has made the jump to professional brewing they should be entering in proffesional comps. amateur comps are for amateurs, if this isnt simple enough im glad the entrant isnt doing anything that is important. imagine a surgeon who couldnt get something that simple and straight forward through theyre head, paying some one else to cut a persons brain open and then taking credit if it was sucessfull.im sure it wouldnt go down well.


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## sim (5/10/11)

asuming you could brew 5 brews a week, what would you do with all that beer? it would be stale before you drank it all.

homebrewers arent necessarily that comparible to pros. we brew for different reasons.

homebrewers have alot of freedom where pros dont. pros will more often understand the craft more intimately than homebrewers.

just seperate the two along _some_ lines and people will sort themselves out alright.


sim


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## kymba (5/10/11)

MHB said:


> blah
> 
> I suggest that this thread be either closed or split, I was following the Pro/Am discussion with interest, of which I have very little in what you guys in QLD think of your state comp.
> Mark



What! you want to split this thread and make me follow the 507 topics already included in this thread?!?! including the whiney fathers supporting some bullshit? i don't have time for that. pls keep all off topic posts in this thread

edit: beerhog, will you pls elaborate on this professional brewer pumping out 5 - 10 differnet brews per week


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## ekul (6/10/11)

BEERHOG said:


> the results speak for themselves to me in this case, was there an advantage? look at the score board , obvious isnt it!



I've seen a comp scoreboard (2009 i think) where every second award was some guy brewing kits, whereas i don't think many here would say that the kit brewer has the advantage over a mash brewer, so the results may not speak for themselves, maybe just for that competition.


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