# Drinking bandaids (elastoplast)



## Blind Dog (2/10/14)

[SIZE=medium]Apologies for the long post[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=medium]So 5 of my last 7 English bitters were completely ruined by bandaid (or Elastoplast for any other Poms) flavours. Smells like the fabric plasters, and tastes like the smaell if that makes sense. Had 2 bandaid ones back in March/April, 2 nice ones in June/July (one placed 1st in the States) and now 3 more ruined. The most recent 3 (all with bandaid) were meant to be the ones I’d pick the entry for the nationals from, so somewhat annoyed without an entry to the nationals.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=medium]Over the same period I’ve brewed a Kolsch, American Wheat, 3 APAs, AIPA, American Brown, special bitter, ESB and a faux lager which were all fine (sounds a fair bit, but I took 4 cases to my dad in the UK in June). Also brewed loads of English bitters over the years in an elusive search for the original Brakspear bitter[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=medium]Pretty sure I’ve ruled out infection as the other beers were brewed and fermented in the same environment and on the same equipment with the same cleaning (napisan or sodium percarbonate) and sanitation (Starsan substitute from National Homebrew) regime. The2nd bad beer might have been stored in an infected cube (it stank when I checked it once it was clear the beer was off, but I hadn’t cleaned it at that point (idiot) so the stink probably had more to do with that. Cube and fermenter were recycled before being used again just in case[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=medium]In terms of yeast, 2 were with Bedford (1 vial split and 1L starter for each). The other 3 were with fresh packs of 1275, 1469 and Windsor. The 2 bitters that worked were with 1275 and Bedford (fresh, single pack)[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=medium]Base malts varied (all English varieties and from various suppliers) as did spec malts and were used in other successful beers over the period. Hops varied (all English though) and again from a variety of suppliers. So I can’t see an obvious commonality in ingredients.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=medium]Water is Sydney water from Ryde, filtered through an under sink carbon filter and treated with 1 campden tablet added to the kettle before I mash in. Usually chuck 6L of 76C water on top of the grain after lifting the malt pipe on the BM – that’s also filtered and campden tablet added. Mash pH is between 5 and 6 per the strips I use (don’t always use them though). Same process for all the other beers too[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=medium]Ferment in plastic or stainless is kind of temperature controlled in a fridge – noticed the wire on the probe was severed about 10 days ago and bodged up a fix and calibrated (boiling water & iced water & checked to digital cooking thermometer), but that would only affect the last 2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]For ales I generally dough in at 35 to 40 and let it sit at that temp for 20 minutes before ramping to the 1st sacc rest for 45 min, then to 71 or 72 for 20 and mash out at 77.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=medium]So just wondering if anyone can spot a culprit as I’m at something of a loss and really want to get this sorted. I’m leaning towards something odd in the mash, or possibly not giving the campden tablet enough time to do its magic before adding the malt?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium](and yes I have researched the numerous threads here and elsewhere but seem to have ruled out the suspects identified)[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=medium]Help much appreciated[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=medium]Cheers[/SIZE]


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## Adr_0 (2/10/14)

I thoughta ccarbon filter would remove chlorine. 

Are you using bleach at all? This will get you big time. 

Camden /sodium met turns chloramines to simple chlorine and it does work slowly. So you still need to boil, and uunless you're willing to wait overnight you may have to uptthe dose - which then raises sulphur components in the final beer. 

I have started using sodium ascorbate. So far it is awesome.


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## panzerd18 (2/10/14)

Half a campden tablet should treat 20 or so litres of wort for Chlorine and chloramine.


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## indica86 (2/10/14)

I got it from bleach once.
Stopped using that then.


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## Adr_0 (2/10/14)

Well, the carbon filter should actually remove the chlorine... Unless it's old. 

Just consider that the campden tablet has to be mixed in very well and has to sit fur a while to properly mix in. And a lot of sources say you need 2-3 times the theoretical amount to be effective. 

So just things to consider. You'd think with carbon filter and campden you would be laughing. 

Sure about the infection? And no bleach used anywhere?


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## paulyman (2/10/14)

I'm very new to the home brew scene. But have had a lot of wine over the years. Mention band aid and I instantly think Brett.

You said it isn't infected and from your descriptions it seems unlikely, but that would be my number one culprit.


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## danestead (2/10/14)

Have you pulled your beer faucets apart and cleaned them lately? What about the tap on the braumeister or your plate chiller (do you use one?)? Cleaned and sanitised your kegs including the dip tube?


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## Blind Dog (2/10/14)

No bleach anywhere, ever

All equipment cleaned, rinsed and starsaned. Make up starsan with filtered water just to be sure

Filter is meant to be good for 2 years and is less than a year old

Taps on BM and fermenters disassembled and cleaned. Soaked for at least 24hours in sodium perc, rinsed and then soaked in starsan

It's not the kegs as the bandaid taste is there from the fermenter

Looking like it's the water (chloramine) or an infection that only affects bitters


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## pat86 (2/10/14)

Do you need to do water treatment? I live near Ryde and the water seems to be good. Never had any off flavors but I also haven't gone and tried tweaking water Chem either for any specific brews. 

Maybe run a brew with plain tap water as a control - same as one of the affected recipes?


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## Blind Dog (2/10/14)

Sydney water use chloramine as well as chlorine, hence the water treatment. What's got me stumped is that it's only happened to bitters, and not all the time. No effect on much lighter beers


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## anthonyUK (2/10/14)

I'd guess that the chlorophenols only form with the higher AA hops that might have been used.


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## Blind Dog (2/10/14)

anthonyUK said:


> I'd guess that the chlorophenols only form with the higher AA hops that might have been used.


It's a thought - will need the check the notes, but they're lower aa than the hops used in the APAs so maybe it's the higher aa uk hops that somehow react with something else?


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## JasonP (2/10/14)

Do u chill or no chill?


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## Tex083 (2/10/14)

Brett can develop some band-aid flavours, have you had a sour brewing in your brewery?
Once Brett is in, its very hard to get rid of.
may be a fermenting issue, is there a long lag phase? phenols which are initially produced by the yeast can cause the flavour. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds, Im not fimilar with camped and how it reacts I boil my water the night before to remove chlorine.


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## Blind Dog (2/10/14)

JasonP said:


> Do u chill or no chill?


No chill


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## manticle (2/10/14)

Get all new equipment (hoses,fermenter,cube) campden your water, wait 24 hours, charcoal filter, then heat to strike temp and see if that makes a difference.

I've experienced the flavour you mean but it was related to bleach.
Horrible.


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## Blind Dog (2/10/14)

Tex083 said:


> Brett can develop some band-aid flavours, have you had a sour brewing in your brewery?
> Once Brett is in, its very hard to get rid of.
> may be a fermenting issue, is there a long lag phase? phenols which are initially produced by the yeast can cause the flavour. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds, Im not fimilar with camped and how it reacts I boil my water the night before to remove chlorine.


No sours and have brewed other beers with the same equipment without issue
I've never used bleach and when I've tested the filtered water for chlorine, the test is negative (not sure how accurate the strips are though). The Campden tablet is sodium metabisulphite and is meant to get rid of chloramine which the filter won't remove


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## manticle (2/10/14)

Did you add dettol or drop a band aid/plaster in some of your beers?


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## JasonP (2/10/14)

Are the affected beers lower in alcohol than the none affected? It does sound like an infection but curious why only showing in certain beers. How long is your lag time in these beers?


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## Blind Dog (2/10/14)

manticle said:


> Did you add dettol or drop a band aid/plaster in some of your beers?


No

And bandaids don't actually taste of bandaids which is weird (yes I did chew a few, seemed like a good idea. It wasn't) I figure the description of chlorophenols as having a bandaid taste is actually a reference to the smell and a taste that tastes like the smell if that makes sense


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## manticle (2/10/14)

More iodine/dettol/swimming pool?


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## Blind Dog (3/10/14)

I got odd looks from SWMBO, but all in the name of research - somewhere between betadine antiseptic (not the mouth wash) and heat rub (that was fun)


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## manticle (3/10/14)

Need to eliminate every variable, one by one. Hard slog, seriously.


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## MHB (3/10/14)

Blind Dog said:


> No bleach anywhere, ever
> 
> All equipment cleaned, rinsed and starsaned. Make up starsan with filtered water just to be sure
> 
> ...


I would be very careful trusting that 2 years as that will be based on marketing and will be defined as some sort of "standard" use. Pulling 50L through it in a batch wont be regarded as standard use.
I am sure we have all seen the ad on telley for those nappies that can soak up seven cups of water - but only if you regard 70mL as a cup! always good to read the fine print.
If you want to be sure your filter is working you will need a conductivity meter, ask around at a hydro shop or look on eBay.
Good luck sorting the problem, I know how frustrating this sort of thing can be to track down and eliminate, but persevere.
If it isn't the water and Chloramines next I would look at other infection and have a good read up on what causes Phenolic flavours, a long hard look at yeast management is always worth wile.
Mark

Oh I posted this in another thread a couple of weeks ago and you might find it useful in tracking the problem down
View attachment Complete_Beer_Fault_Guide.pdf

M


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## GalBrew (3/10/14)

Also keep in mind for your carbon filter to work properly you need to have the flow rate of your water quite low.


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## anthonyUK (3/10/14)

A carbon filter is all well and good but unless you have some weird aversion to sulphides I'd always add a pinch of campden.
It will eliminate any chlorine/chloramines almost instantly and have no adverse effects of you brewing water.


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## pat86 (3/10/14)

So for a Sydney brewer, what is the tastable difference between no water treatment and water treatment? Anyone done side by sides? 

If chlorine is the main thing, what's the main off flavour you get in beer - I haven't noticed anything in homebrew different to commercial?


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## Eagleburger (3/10/14)

I feel for ya.

I had to cvhuck a keg due to bandaids in the brew. I installed twin carbon filters, trickle water through them at about 2L/hr and put a gram of ascorbic acid in the pot each time for good measure. That now done, the chlorine smell from the tap no longer knocks me over, but I am not about to let up.

Ther e is probably enough carbon in a filter to last a life time. The problem is availability. Ther are two issues, chanelling which can restict areas and related is pore size through teh media. For the bulk price I will be changing my lead filter every 6 months and the tail every 12.


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## Fat Bastard (3/10/14)

Blind Dog, in all honesty, I don't think the water is your issue. I brew with the same stuff from the West Ryde plant down here on the Northern Beaches, and I've never, ever treated it for chlorine/chloramine, and have never, ever had the bandaid-y tang of phenols in my my many and varied brews. It's always been my understanding that the chlorine/chloramine levels are so low in our supply it's not worth bothering trying to treat it, and I never have. That being said, I always let my water sit overnight, sometimes at an elevated temperature to speed up proceedings on brewday.

I do pay attention to my pH levels and have noticed in the past that it can be quite variable, on a couple of occasions the raw water has been over 8.8/9 but for the last year it's been around the 7.2/7.5 mark (or whatever is in line with the lower end of the West Ryde Water Report)

If you're interested enough to ask, I can go back a few months/years and pull some consecutive raw West Ryde water pH readings that I bothered to keep, maybe 4-6 in total when I was a new pH meter owner and measured such things,and compare them to the WR water report if you think it will help.

Cheers!

FB


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## barabool (4/10/14)

Buy a 25Lt run of the mill fermentor - do a K&K and check.
Cheap and easy way to check if its your gear or ingredients.
Even do it in your non usual brewing area.


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## Blind Dog (8/10/14)

Fat Bastard said:


> Blind Dog, in all honesty, I don't think the water is your issue. I brew with the same stuff from the West Ryde plant down here on the Northern Beaches, and I've never, ever treated it for chlorine/chloramine, and have never, ever had the bandaid-y tang of phenols in my my many and varied brews. It's always been my understanding that the chlorine/chloramine levels are so low in our supply it's not worth bothering trying to treat it, and I never have. That being said, I always let my water sit overnight, sometimes at an elevated temperature to speed up proceedings on brewday.
> 
> I do pay attention to my pH levels and have noticed in the past that it can be quite variable, on a couple of occasions the raw water has been over 8.8/9 but for the last year it's been around the 7.2/7.5 mark (or whatever is in line with the lower end of the West Ryde Water Report)
> 
> ...


Cheers. Unfortunately I think you're probably right. Tested for chlorine on the weekend before mash in with strips from the local aquarium place and there was none. As it's toxic to fish I figure the strips are probably accurate. Chap in the shop also said chlorine is only any issue when they flush the system after heavy rains or no rains. So that's probably one variable knocked out

Guess it could be the mash pH but it's always been around 5 when I've tested. Maybe I just need a more accurate measure. Not sure an elevated mash pH would lead to bandaid type flavours though based on readings to date, but will research

Looking more and more like infection is the issue


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## Blind Dog (8/10/14)

MHB said:


> I would be very careful trusting that 2 years as that will be based on marketing and will be defined as some sort of "standard" use. Pulling 50L through it in a batch wont be regarded as standard use.
> I am sure we have all seen the ad on telley for those nappies that can soak up seven cups of water - but only if you regard 70mL as a cup! always good to read the fine print.
> If you want to be sure your filter is working you will need a conductivity meter, ask around at a hydro shop or look on eBay.
> Good luck sorting the problem, I know how frustrating this sort of thing can be to track down and eliminate, but persevere.
> ...


Cheers Mark. Useful info as always. The attachment at 40+ pages of beer faults is somewhat depressing although hopefully it'll help track down this issue and prevent more


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## Blind Dog (8/10/14)

manticle said:


> Get all new equipment (hoses,fermenter,cube) campden your water, wait 24 hours, charcoal filter, then heat to strike temp and see if that makes a difference.
> I've experienced the flavour you mean but it was related to bleach.
> Horrible.


Thanks. Advice followed, so we'll see how this one turns out in it new plastic fermenter. Can't replace the brewtech SS fermenters though so hoping that using a sodium perc clean, boiling water rinse, sodium metabisulphite rinse and rest, boiling water rinse and starsan will get rid of any bugs. Might start with sodium triphosphate too, just cos I have some tricleanium about. Will try to disassemble the taps as well


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## manticle (9/10/14)

MHB said:


> Oh I posted this in another thread a couple of weeks ago and you might find it useful in tracking the problem down
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Printed for future reference. Should be a requirement for all comp judges to read and re-read.


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## Dan Pratt (9/10/14)

MHB said:


> I would be very careful trusting that 2 years as that will be based on marketing and will be defined as some sort of "standard" use. Pulling 50L through it in a batch wont be regarded as standard use.
> I am sure we have all seen the ad on telley for those nappies that can soak up seven cups of water - but only if you regard 70mL as a cup! always good to read the fine print.
> If you want to be sure your filter is working you will need a conductivity meter, ask around at a hydro shop or look on eBay.
> Good luck sorting the problem, I know how frustrating this sort of thing can be to track down and eliminate, but persevere.
> ...


thats a good read.


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## HBHB (9/10/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Well, the carbon filter should actually remove the chlorine... Unless it's old.


Sorry, but a single pass through a carbon filter won't get rid of all Chlorine, nor all Chloramines.

The Campden treatment converts the Chlorine to Chlorides, which don't have any flavour contribution (at those concentrations.)

Lots of possible sources of Phenols/Chlorophenols. Including all those stated.

Another source of Phenolic flavours is garden hoses - No amount of filtering at the end of a garden hose will make the water right for beermaking if it's been through a garden hose with a degraded liner.


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## klangers (9/10/14)

My guess is as above^. Somewhere along the line, high temperature and acidic wort may have degraded some plastic tubing or perhaps even your cube and these have leached phenolic compounds into your wort.


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## Redracer (9/10/14)

How long do you let the beer sit after fermentation? Do you let it condition for a while to clean up or do you get if off the yeast cake quickly to avoid autolysis? Do you change this process based on the different types of beer that you have brewed?
You mentioned the temp probe being broken which would have affected only the last two brews. How do you know it wasn't broken before this? The best bitters you got were in the coldest months, did you brew any of the other beers in this period that didn't have any issues. This might be related to you fridge not needing to work as hard.
The only other thing I can think of is sanitation of the smack pack/tube/starter.

Not much help I know, just more questions....


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## poggor (9/10/14)

elastoplast (which is a specific kind of tape) is a zinc oxide tape. Don't know if that helps, but the distinctive smell is zinc oxide apparently (i work with this stuff on a daily basis)


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## adamsmith3d (13/10/14)

Sounds a lot like you are getting some diacetyl. I have had the same from a stout using the 1084 irish ale and a porter the 1469 west yorkshire. What temps are you fermenting at and are you then performing a diacetyl rest afterwards?


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## manticle (13/10/14)

Diacetyl doesn't taste much like bandaids in my experience. Quite, quite different.


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## SimoB (13/10/14)

Nothing like it.


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## Blind Dog (13/10/14)

Yep more butter popcorn than band aids

With all the replies, and testing I've done, I think I'm down to infection as the cause. I've cleaned the crap out of everything and replaced the cheaper bits. Here's hoping


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## adamsmith3d (14/10/14)

Ah apologies!
Well whatever that taste is, it definitely went away after 4-6 weeks in the bottle.


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