# Hop Adjustment Help For No Chilling? Bitter First Ag



## Barley Belly (23/5/09)

Cracked my AG cherry a few months ago (the obligatory DrSmurto's Golden Ale) and haven't had a chance to AG brew since then but I have been bitten by the bug once again and are keen.

I know it was my one and only AG, but I found it to be a little on the bitter side, only know after a few months in the bottle has it subsided enough to be enjoyed. Don't get me wrong, loved the beer, beautiful flavour and aroma, good head and colour ( a little cloudy on second pour) but all in all a nice beer. The only problem was the initial bitterness.

I've double and triple checked my recipe and the hops were almost spot on to DrSmurto's, so I can only put it down too the no chilling, I think??? There has been a few discussions here on no chill hopping and wondered if anyone has come to a conclusion percentage wise???

Say 3/4 of bittering hop if no chilling or making the hop additions later???

Any/all feedback would be appreciated

Recipes was as below and I use a two vessel system (33l Esky Mash Tun w/slotted copper manifold and 40l Aluminium Kettle/HLT) and no chilled into a 20l cube and left for 7 days before fermentation

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: DrSmurto's Golden Ale Clone
Brewer: finners
Asst Brewer: 
Style: English Special or Best Bitter
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.00 L 
Boil Size: 25.18 L
Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Estimated Color: 6.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 27.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.40 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (3.Grain 56.5 % 
0.80 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (9.0 SRM) Grain 18.8 % 
0.80 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (1.8 SRGrain 18.8 % 
0.25 kg Caramalt (Joe White) (25.0 SRM) Grain 5.9 % 
20.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 19.4 IBU 
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (10 min) Hops 5.3 IBU 
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (5 min) Hops 2.9 IBU 
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (0 min) Hops - 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Dry Ale Yeast (Fermentis #US-05) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 4.25 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 11.09 L of water at 72.4 C 66.0 C 90 min 
Mash Out Add 7.10 L of water at 99.5 C 78.0 C 10 min 


Notes:
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## Daniel.lear (23/5/09)

Hi, 

If you followed the 'traditiona'l hopping regime in the recipe, then you will have increased bitterness levels.

Have a look in a couple of the no-chill threads as there has been some experimentation on the effects of late addition hops and no-chill.

It is beleived that the longer contact time at high temperatures for long periods causes more isomerisation of the hop oils.

Personnally i use a single bittering addittion at 60min then recalculate my late hops as a 20min addition BUT add them dry straight to the cube(cube-hopping), and pour the hot wort on top.

Using this method i achieve the correct 'perceived' levels of bitterness, however there is less hop aroma. i have put this down to one of the consequences of the method. If you wish to add more aroma you can either dry hop into seccondary, or make the old hop tea like you did with kits.

Cheers 

Leary


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## smollocks (23/5/09)

I've been reading the no chill bitterness threads this week in anticipation of my first no chill today. Although it's good to have everyone post their experiences, the threads are full of unique empirical results and conflicting experiences. 

The general things I've gleaned:

If you're brewing a beer with low bitterness, and/or hops with a low alpha acid, you might not notice any difference at all with no chill
Straining hop matter as it goes into the cube won't prevent extra bitterness as the hop oils have already partially dissolved into solution
Extra bitterness is most likely due to enhanced utilisation of flavour (20min) and aroma (0-5min) additions. As bitterness additions have already been boiled 60mins, the additional time at high temperature probably won't change the contribution of these hops
Although enhanced bitterness is not uniformly experienced, most people seem to experience a loss of hop aroma in no chilled beers
Some people have had success with steeping the hops in hot water for a few minutes and adding this tea to recreate their hop aroma.
Some people have also experimented with hop additions to the cube.
So my plan is to:

Move my 60min bitterness hop addition to 45min
Move my 20min flavour hop addition to 10min
Move my 0-5min aroma hop addition to a dry hop a few days into fermentation.
I won't be altering the actual hop amounts from the recipe
It all seems like a bit of guesswork, but I don't think there's any consensus on the best way around it.


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## muckey (23/5/09)

from all accounts bitterness does see more pronounced with no chill if the last additions are large.

I changed the hop additions and settled on an amarillo cascade blend that suited me much better


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## crundle (23/5/09)

I no chill and BIAB, and all I did with Dr Smurto's Golden Ale was to move the 0 minute addition to being added at the kegging stage, using the french press method. The bitterness doesn't seem to be affected by no chilling in my limited experience, but this may be the result of the fairly intense aroma you gain from french pressing masking the bitterness.

It seems to be a factor that is in the taste buds of the beholder, but I think that there have been some side by side tests done on no chill bitterness that seemed to point to the difference if any, being minimal in practice, but others may disagree.

Crundle


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## dicko (23/5/09)

Hi all,

I found the good doctors recipe too bitter (for my liking) when I made it with "no chill" so what I did on the second one was to add only the bittering hop to the kettle and I added the rest of the hop pellets to the cube when it had cooled down to around 60 deg c.
To achieve this temp i let the cube cool naturally for a few hours then I took a small sample and measured the temp.
It was reading around 52 deg c in the sample tube so I estimated that the temp would have been around 60 deg c at an educated guess because of the rapid rate of cooling that would occur in the sample tube.
The beer came out good when young with a good hit of flavour and aroma.
I now notice that as it has been in the keg for a while it is loosing a bit of the aroma but is still a good beer.
I have my cfwc working again now so I am looking forward to doing the recipe as per the doctors instructions.

cheers


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## Bribie G (23/5/09)

Personally I would find 60g of an 8.5% AA hop to be plenty bitter in its own right without no chilling. If I were doing that brew as a no chiller I would suggest moving the last couple of additions to post-cube, maybe the ten minute addition four days after pitching and the flameout addition to a hop tea a couple of days before bottling. 
I have found that the aroma of those citrussy USA style hops like BSaaz, Cascade etc really shines when added ultra late.


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## flattop (23/5/09)

Look, clearly part of the problem is that if you add a 10min or 5 min addition the amount of time that these additions add effective bittering is shortened by the chilling.
In no chill, these additions have extra exposure time as the wort cools slowly.
I would suspect that changing the addition times would not make a huge difference as the exposure time is still lengthy.
I think it may be more beneficial to drop either the hop quantity or AA rating to reduce the overall bitterness.
It has been discussed that you can use a different hop for bittering to any given recipe as it contributes less to the overall flavor profile than the late additions.

I would consider reducing the quantity of the 60min hop by perhaps 25-30% and leave the 10min and 5 min additions the same.
Reasoning is that it's the 60min that adds the larger part of the bittering and the late additions add more flavor.


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## clean brewer (23/5/09)

Ive been working on my No-chilling for about 12 Brews now and I now:
Add my bittering addition at 45 min, which will end up being 60min anyhow after Flameout and whirlpooling.
Flavour addition is added to the cube prior to draining
I now dry hop(depending on style) after about 7 days fermentation.
Thats working well for me now... :icon_cheers: 

And yes it will depend on what hops you are using and their properties, also with Winter coming on, the cube is cooling a bit quicker now than it was in Summer..

:icon_cheers: CB


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## snagler (23/5/09)

Good timeing for me on this thread !

I made a dr smurtos golden ale yesterday (about the fifth one ive made now). But instead of useing amarillo as the 60 min bittering addition I decided to substitute 14% AA Pacific Jade to the same IBU's . It would seem amarillo is in high demand now $$$$$$ but having said that I would never thing of skimping on my secondary amarillo addition :icon_drool2: 

I tasted the cooled cube today as I was putting it in the fermenter and did notice a considerable bitterness increase on the original recipe. Will know more in a couple of weeks when its on tap

:icon_cheers:


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## flattop (24/5/09)

I've found that the wort is more bitter when cubing than after a couple of weeks in the fermenter so don't be put off if the initial wort seems a little harsh.

I substituted another hop for Dr Smurto's but like you would never leave out the Amarillo late additions, it makes the brew special.

I like the recipe as it is in general, although the ministry of war thinks its a little bitter, i may reduce the bittering addition next brew to try to get her to drink HB


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## dr K (24/5/09)

of course you could get around all of this by actually chilling......it is said to work wonders...

K


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## flattop (24/5/09)

Hmm but that would actually defeat the purpose of "no chilling"


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## dr K (24/5/09)

> Hmm but that would actually defeat the purpose of "no chilling"



Of course...but then what is the purpose of "no chilling".
There certainly is a cost saving (goodness me, that $35 worth of copper tube amortized over 12 brews comes up to nearly $3 a brew) and that makes cents I guess.
Now, I need not discuss the purposes of chilling (even with an immersion chiller) as these are well known and well documented, but I would be interested in what makes "no chilling" so attractive (apart from the obvious massive cost savings), it clearly does not result in botulism!!!

K


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## DUANNE (24/5/09)

dr K said:


> Of course...but then what is the purpose of "no chilling".
> There certainly is a cost saving (goodness me, that $35 worth of copper tube amortized over 12 brews comes up to nearly $3 a brew) and that makes cents I guess.
> Now, I need not discuss the purposes of chilling (even with an immersion chiller) as these are well known and well documented, but I would be interested in what makes "no chilling" so attractive (apart from the obvious massive cost savings), it clearly does not result in botulism!!!
> 
> K


two come to mind quickly. storage, i have kept cubed no chill brews for 6 weeks or more till i had room in the fermenters or have the time to clean and prepare a fermenter with others on the forum stating up to18 months with no ill effects. just how long can you keep your properly chilled worts before pitching yeast.
the other point is transport. i brew at my parents place as i have no room at my house to brew properly. i can visit and knock up 2 or three brews over a weekend and take them home with me safely and without any exposure to random infections. have you ever done a starter that didnt fire in time to pitch in a brew that you have made ,not a problem with no chill just pitch tomorrow when it does fire. i use nochill and chilling depending what works at the time for what purpose is in mind.i have no botulism or any other diseases yet , guess its just a matter of time eh?

bh


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## Fourstar (24/5/09)

dr K said:


> but I would be interested in what makes "no chilling" so attractive (apart from the obvious massive cost savings)



For me, the fact that Victorias water storage levels are currently @ 26% is a good enough reason not to piss 100L down the drain to chill my wort to pitching temps. Im happy Eeough with the hop aroma and flavours in my beers with NC.

I Currently:

FWH all of my beers.
Flavour - 10min or less.
Aroma - Into the cube before transferring from the kettle or added to cube around 70deg and re-sealed with no effects.

I usually pitch on to yeast within a week so the chance of it going bad from the late additon at lower temps are quite slim. I havn't had an infection yet, so until I do. I'll continue the way im brewing.


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## flattop (24/5/09)

Look i haven't chilled, but water is a concern for me, even when cleaning my gear i am water conscious
Storing yet another piece of gear, my study is already waist high in an urn, 3 fermenters and about 5 boxes of bottles and a bottle tree, i have a pantry full of empties and capping gear, not to mention the other sundry bits. I realize a chiller isn't that big but it's more gear. Anyhow i am new to AG so perhaps in the future i will throw out some other gear to make space.


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## Thirsty Boy (24/5/09)

dr K said:


> Of course...but then what is the purpose of "no chilling".
> There certainly is a cost saving (goodness me, that $35 worth of copper tube amortized over 12 brews comes up to nearly $3 a brew) and that makes cents I guess.
> Now, I need not discuss the purposes of chilling (even with an immersion chiller) as these are well known and well documented, but I would be interested in what makes "no chilling" so attractive (apart from the obvious massive cost savings), it clearly does not result in botulism!!!
> 
> K



Well, I certainly didn't swap to no-chill because of the savings in money. I posess both an immersion chiller and a Plate chiller. The reasons I changed to no chill are thus

*I use much less water *- even after doing my best to re-cycle the water for washing down brewery etc. I still put more than 50L more water down the drain when I chill vs no-chill.

*I save considerable time and effort on brewday* - There is no "cold side" on your brewday. Much less attention needs to be paid to sanitation. Oh I still sanitise vessels and hoses etc - but I use less sanitiser, spend less time sanitising and believe I have less infection risk on a day when I no-chill. The chilling process itself takes time. My brewday is at least an hour less long when I no-chill.

*I use my kettle deadspace wort to make a starter -* My cube chills over a few days while my starter is made from the filtered and re-boiled deadspace liquid. This appeases my objection to wasting this perfectly good wort and means I am never tempted to under pitch just to get yeast into the wort ASAP

*Time flexibility* - Fermentation is not tied to wort production timewise. I can brew a number of times and ferment at leisure. My fermentation capacity is not generally stretched, but I find my time for brewdays comes in chunks and occasionally I can brew more than I can or want to ferment. No chill irons out the bumps and gives me more options


I honestly doubt that too many people choose to no-chill because a chiller is too expensive to make. Although they are quite expensive to buy pre-made. Its mainly about ease of use, time saving and flexibiity. With no perceptible effect on the quality of the finished beer.

I want to make great beer - I wouldn't do something I thought was detrimental to the quality of the beer I make - but if I can save time and effort without affecting my beer quality - why wouldn't I do that?

Yes there are things you need to do differently if you no-chill - but there are differences in all sorts of brewing practices. Hop sock or not, hop back or not, batch or fly or no sparge - hell you might even brew biab. You might chill but use a plate chiller or immersion chiller or do a 90 min boil or a 2hr boil, or any combination. Just because you have to take some action to address the features of your chosen method, does not make that method bad.

I will turn the question around on you Dr K -- what are the purposes of chilling? You said they need not be discussed and are well known and well documented. But I don't think the really are, and I have been actively looking in the literature. I think they do need to be discussed. Just exactly what does the rapid chilling of a beer do that is not also done when you no-chill a beer? Not just what rapid chilling achieves - what it does better than no-chilling.


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## rich_lamb (24/5/09)

Finners,
part of the problem with there being no consensus on how to adjust your hopping is that people no-chill in different ways, so the bitterness is affected differently.
A lot of guys will whirlpool and rack reasonably clear wort to the cube, so the effect on bitterness is not that great and can be compensated by maybe adjusting your timing of additions. But racking from the kettle is not an exact science, and I'm betting every brewer has a different cutoff point in terms of how much beer they waste and how much hops gets to the cube...

I take all the wort from the kettle, so I had real problems at first. I do believe the hop solids affect the bitterness in the cube - it's not just the oils already in solution. I now filter from the kettle and that fixed most of the excess bitterness. Then I started chilling the cubes (after 30 minutes) and the beer is a tad better still, but you gotta wonder what I'm saving in effort!

At the end of the day, I no-chill for convenience. But I will go back to chilling when I have a pump for my tank, as IMHO you get the ultimate control over beer quality with a chiller - though the differences can be fairly minimal.


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## Darren (24/5/09)

Hey Thirsty and Dr. K,

History shows that chilling is advantageous as it reduces the chance of infection (ie pitched immediately). Stored wort stales like a banana on the bench and a "can of goo" on the supermarket shelf. 

Problem is that many can't taste the difference 8)

What history has yet to show is that storage of sweet wort in plastic containers is safe. For that reason I would employ caution.

cheers

Darren


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## Damian44 (24/5/09)

How do you chill down to 10C?


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## drtomc (25/5/09)

dr K said:


> of course you could get around all of this by actually chilling......it is said to work wonders...
> 
> K



Can I get technical for a moment?

False => True. That is, if you start with a false premise, all conclusions are true.

Besides, there's an innate cool factor in working out how to make a "new" technique work well. One of the great things about home brewing is the scope for experimentation and exploration!

Chill! (Um, so to speak) 

T.


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## drtomc (25/5/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I honestly doubt that too many people choose to no-chill because a chiller is too expensive to make. Although they are quite expensive to buy pre-made. Its mainly about ease of use, time saving and flexibiity. With no perceptible effect on the quality of the finished beer.



Actually, for me, NC was the discovery that tipped me from kit brewing to AG precisely because I had cubes already, so NC represented one less bit of gear to sort out in order to make the switch. Partly expense, partly learning curve.

I note wrt water, that several people have mentioned using rain-water tank water to flow through their chiller which they recycle into the tank, which is a nice finesse. Of course, not everyone has a rain-water tank.

T.


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## Bribie G (25/5/09)

Damian44 said:


> How do you chill down to 10C?


There's no need to chill IMMEDIATELY down to 10 degrees because even when fermenting at those temperatures, it's still necessary to pitch at a higher temp then chill down from there. Using no chill I have no problems getting down to pitching temp in two stages then to fermenting temp.

let cube cool overnight (usually still about 29 degrees in the morning)
place in dead fridge with frozen PETs which brings it to pitching temperature by around lunchtime
continue swapping frozen PETs and it's at fermentation temperature by the next morning.. I usually go about 13 degrees for a lager and 3 frozen PETs swapped only once a day keeps me there at the moment (SEQ autumn weather). The live fridge and the dead fridge are both in the garage so it's literally a 3 minute job once a day.


On the subject of flexibility, we're moving house in about 3 weeks but the brewing is proceeding as normal, I'll just take cubes of wort with me and the new brewery can kick off from day one with nary a hiccup :super:


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## EK (25/5/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I think they do need to be discussed. Just exactly what does the rapid chilling of a beer do that is not also done when you no-chill a beer? Not just what rapid chilling achieves - what it does better than no-chilling.


My understanding, and I could well be wrong, is that chilling meant to produce a cold break and no chilling doesn't. As I have only just done my first AG beer, a BIAB DrSmurto Golden Ale, which was no chilled, I would like to know what the cold break does to the end product.

Also Plamer says:


> Rapid cooling also forms the Cold Break. This is composed of another group of proteins that need to be thermally shocked into precipitating out of the wort. Slow cooling will not affect them. Cold break, or rather the lack of it, is the cause of Chill Haze. When a beer is chilled for drinking, these proteins partially precipitate forming a haze. As the beer warms up, the proteins re-dissolve. Only by rapid chilling from near-boiling to room temperature will the Cold Break proteins permanently precipitate and not cause Chill Haze. Chill haze is usually regarded as a cosmetic problem. You cannot taste it. However, chill haze indicates that there is an appreciable level of cold-break-type protein in the beer, which has been linked to long-term stability problems. Hazy beer tends to become stale sooner than non-hazy beer.



:icon_cheers: 
EK


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## Thirsty Boy (25/5/09)

EK said:


> My understanding, and I could well be wrong, is that chilling meant to produce a cold break and no chilling doesn't. As I have only just done my first AG beer, a BIAB DrSmurto Golden Ale, which was no chilled, I would like to know what the cold break does to the end product.
> 
> Also Plamer says:
> 
> ...



In this case - Its my opinion that both yourself and Palmer are wrong. Cold break forms as temperature drops because the compounds are simply not soluble at lower temperatures. The speed with which you get to the lower temperatures is not particularly important. Cold break still demonstrably happens in slow cooled wort.

Darren - I would point out that the history that shows slow cooling to be an infection risk is mainly one that involves coolships and letting the wort cool down by having the breeze blow across a large open surface area. A little different a proposition to a sealed and sanitised container. Apart from that point I rather surprisingly agree with the majority of what you say.


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## clean brewer (25/5/09)

> Also Plamer says:
> QUOTE Rapid cooling also forms the Cold Break. This is composed of another group of proteins that need to be thermally shocked into precipitating out of the wort. Slow cooling will not affect them. Cold break, or rather the lack of it, is the cause of Chill Haze. When a beer is chilled for drinking, these proteins partially precipitate forming a haze. As the beer warms up, the proteins re-dissolve. Only by rapid chilling from near-boiling to room temperature will the Cold Break proteins permanently precipitate and not cause Chill Haze. Chill haze is usually regarded as a cosmetic problem. You cannot taste it. However, chill haze indicates that there is an appreciable level of cold-break-type protein in the beer, which has been linked to long-term stability problems. Hazy beer tends to become stale sooner than non-hazy beer.



Interesting... Lucky my Beers aren't around for the long term.. :unsure: And im not too fussed about the Cosmetic look either...


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## hazard (25/5/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> In this case - Its my opinion that both yourself and Palmer are wrong. Cold break forms as temperature drops because the compounds are simply not soluble at lower temperatures. The speed with which you get to the lower temperatures is not particularly important. Cold break still demonstrably happens in slow cooled wort.



personally, i've never had an issue with cold break. I dont use a chiller, simply put the kettle in a sink with cold water and some ice - may take a few hours to get down to pitching temperature. I then tip the contents - including the cold break - through a strainer into the fermenter. Never had any chill haze - even a hoegaarden wit, with 45% raw wheat, remains resolutely clear! So I've never considered it a problem.

Any counter-flow chiller will also dump cold break into the fermenter. I've never heard that this is a cause of any problems. What is not clear from Palmer's quote is, what does he think you should do with cold break? Should you rack from the kettle to leave cold break behind? OR, if in the fermenter, will it sink to the bottom? (Maybe Irish moss will help here, but I never used this with my wit beer).

Hazard


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## brendo (25/5/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> In this case - Its my opinion that both yourself and Palmer are wrong. Cold break forms as temperature drops because the compounds are simply not soluble at lower temperatures. The speed with which you get to the lower temperatures is not particularly important. Cold break still demonstrably happens in slow cooled wort.




+1 on this... I totally agree with Thirsty Boy on this one. I always get cold break in the bottom of my cubes, regardless of how long they have taken to cool (summer vs autumn).

From what I have heard on a few podcasts, a little bit of hot and cold break into the fermentor is not a bad thing and the yeast quite like it.

Brendo


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## atkinsonr (25/5/09)

Just a note on the OP's question about bittering,

I'm in my first few months of AG. All of my AG beers (all 4 of them) have been no-chill. My first two were a little over-bittered, and after making some adjustments the last couple have been fine.

Basically I think TB sums it up fully in this post.

To summarise,

1. No-chill definitely increases the alpha acids exposure to heat, therefore there is an extended window for isomerisation.

2. The difference (in terms of timing of hop additions) between traditional chilling and no chill, is approximately 20 mins (I'm sure this can vary a lot with the ambient temp).

3. 60 min hop additions are fully isomerised anyway, so they are unaffected.

4. Any 30 minute or later additions are affected in two ways:
a. Less contribution to flavour
b. More contribution to bittering

5. A simple (and approximate work around) is to:
a. Add your 60 minute hops as usual, these are the only hops in the boil.
b. Add your usual 30 min additions into the cube (just before you add the wort - it's way less stuffing around than if you try and hop the wort already in the cube)
c. Any later (less than 30 mins) hop additions should be saved for the fermenter. I've been trying TB's Ultra-late hopping idea.

One tip with ultra-late hopping. Be careful not to dilute the wort too much, better to add DME than just "hop tea".

Oh and on the cold break, I find half a whirlflock tab and a good whirlpooling in the kettle is more than enough.

/ Richy


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## Bizier (25/5/09)

I just got my 1/4" chiller back from my dad's place. I will be splitting the tube into multiple in/outlets to get more vol through.

Anyway... I will be hopefully brewing 70L batches, NC 2 and traditionally chill one, hopefully I can find some useful technique for getting the hops sorted between the two methods.


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## drtomc (25/5/09)

Just had an email conversation with an organic chemist friend.

Her observation is that when you cool a solution slowly nice pure crystals form leaving behind the impurities (I should have remembered - but it is more than 15 years since I did chemistry at uni). So by chilling quickly it may well be that the cold break captures some of the proteins that cause chill haze.

Anyway, her brother is also a chemist and a brewer, so she was going to consult with him and get back to me....

T.


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