# Randy Mosher Pale Ale Water Profile



## ricardo (21/10/13)

I'm using Sydney water and am having no issues with dark beers. However IPA's are a different kettle of fish as I just don't get the hops in the finished beer (i'm using a couple of 1-2 oz in the boil and 3 - 4 dry hopping

My local water profile is CA 13 MG 5 NA 14 SO4 10 CL 28 HCO3 38

My last IPA with additions was CA 100 MG 12 NA 40 SO4 85 (No CL or HC03 listed so I kept this the same)- This was based on the Stone brewing water and they do some awesome IPA's, the end result was a very bitter double IPA but not for the right reasons, the bitterness was too harsh

I've been looking online and a lot of people seems to reference Randy Mosher's profile as the perfect water profile for Pale Ale/IPA

CA 110 MG 18 NA 16 CL 50 SO4 275 (I've cut it down from 300)

The question is for a 5.5 gallon batch, for me to reach this with 11 gallons of mash and sparge water (2 gallons dead space included) I need the following additions according to bru'n water

Gypsum - 16 g
Epsom - 5.6 g
Calcium Chloride 1.6 g
Salt - 0.2

Apparently the high levels of sulphate make the hops zing with the bitterness and allows them to shine through, any less and you get a more rounded bitterness which I believe is what I got before.

The questions are

1) Has anybody tried this water
profile?
2) Are the additions too much?


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## slash22000 (21/10/13)

I use it for every pale ale and IPA. I've never had a problem, they've all come out nice and bitter with no discernible "mineral" flavour some people report from high sulfates. I wouldn't use it with a black IPA or other darker beer though, your mash might dissolve the kettle.

Randy knows what he's talking about. Tasty McDole also uses the same profile for his hoppy beers. I'm pretty much willing to take everything either of them say as gospel until proved otherwise.


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## ricardo (21/10/13)

> I use it for every pale ale and IPA. I've never had a problem, they've all come out nice and bitter with no discernible "mineral" flavour some people report from high sulfates. I wouldn't use it with a black IPA or other darker beer though, your mash might dissolve the kettle.
> 
> Randy knows what he's talking about. Tasty McDole also uses the same profile for his hoppy beers. I'm pretty much willing to take everything either of them say as gospel until proved otherwise.


I'm interested in why you say no for a black IPA as I'm planning on making one in the next month with 6% dark malts, surely that's not too much??


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## slash22000 (21/10/13)

Some people find the combination of dark malts with very high sulfates to be unpleasant. I've never made a black IPA with Randy's profile myself so I can't attest to it personally. You also have to worry about mash pH - all the salts added with Randy's profile makes for a reasonably potent acidic combo. I don't know if you have a way to test pH, but Randy's salts mixed with more acidic dark grains might lower the pH too much. Just something to keep in mind.

You might try sticking to a more restrained profile for your first black IPA and then try stepping it up later on so you have a way to compare? Just make sure calcium is over 50 and chloride/sulfate ratio is ~1:3 (1 part chloride to 3 parts sulfate). EDIT: Just realised your original profile coincidentally hits the 1:3 ratio almost exactly. 28 CL to 85 SO4 = 1.00:3.04


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## ricardo (22/10/13)

> I use it for every pale ale and IPA. I've never had a problem, they've all come out nice and bitter with no discernible "mineral" flavour some people report from high sulfates. I wouldn't use it with a black IPA or other darker beer though, your mash might dissolve the kettle.
> 
> Randy knows what he's talking about. Tasty McDole also uses the same profile for his hoppy beers. I'm pretty much willing to take everything either of them say as gospel until proved otherwise.


Thanks for the info appreciate it

Sorry forgot to ask, do you make similar salt additions to the one's I posted


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## slash22000 (22/10/13)

I change my salt additions depending on the beer I'm making. An amber ale will have different additions to a pale ale etc.


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## ricardo (22/10/13)

> I change my salt additions depending on the beer I'm making. An amber ale will have different additions to a pale ale etc.


that's what I mean, for a pale ale


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## mabrungard (24/10/13)

Randy's Pale Ale profile is essentially what is presented as the Pale Ale profile in Bru'n Water. That profile has been used successfully by thousands of brewers. It is does not produce a minerally character in beer. The combination of high sulfate with low chloride avoids minerally character. 

I concur that if brewing a beer with significant roastiness, the sulfate content should probably be dialed back a bit. I would decrease it to under 200 ppm.


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## ricardo (25/10/13)

mabrungard said:


> Randy's Pale Ale profile is essentially what is presented as the Pale Ale profile in Bru'n Water. That profile has been used successfully by thousands of brewers. It is does not produce a minerally character in beer. The combination of high sulfate with low chloride avoids minerally character.
> 
> I concur that if brewing a beer with significant roastiness, the sulfate content should probably be dialed back a bit. I would decrease it to under 200 ppm.


Thanks for the info Martin i'm going to give this a shot next week, one last thing regarding a beer with significant roastiness and cutting the sulphate back to under 200, would you keep the chloride the same or reduce also?


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## bum (25/10/13)

ricardo said:


> However IPA's are a different kettle of fish as I just don't get the hops in the finished beer (i'm using a couple of 1-2 oz in the boil


~50g of hops in the boil and water is your problem?

Doubt it.


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## mabrungard (27/10/13)

ricardo said:


> Thanks for the info Martin i'm going to give this a shot next week, one last thing regarding a beer with significant roastiness and cutting the sulphate back to under 200, would you keep the chloride the same or reduce also?


I don't feel you need to cut the chloride. It will be a good compliment in this case.


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## ricardo (29/10/13)

mabrungard said:


> I don't feel you need to cut the chloride. It will be a good compliment in this case.


Hi Martin just done a few calculations on your spreadsheet and have a quick question. 

It states that my estimated PH of the mash at room temperature will be 5.2 and gives me a green box. Doesn't this mean that the PH at actual mash temperature would be about 4.9, is that not too low?


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## slash22000 (29/10/13)

pH measured at room temperature is the true pH. You want the pH to measure 5.2 at room temperature. Measured at mash temperature it will be incorrect.


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## manticle (29/10/13)

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0

The mash temp pH is still true slash. Temperature changes actual pH. You can measure mash temp pH and ensure that it is within correct range for that temp but you are better off cooling to room temp and using that.


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## slash22000 (29/10/13)

Well I'll be damned. Good pick up.


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## Spiesy (29/10/13)

manticle said:


> http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0
> 
> The mash temp pH is still true slash. Temperature changes actual pH. You can measure mash temp pH and ensure that it is within correct range for that temp but you are better off cooling to room temp and using that.


But would you have time to adjust the pH of the mash once it cooled? If a small sample, I guess you would...

Sorry, new to water chem. Have only began adding salts a few brews ago.
Have a pH probe, just need to get some distilled water to calibrate it, then I'll be giving this a go.

So I suppose I'm asking, should you draw off a little "wort" at mash temp - as soon as you've mashed and stirred, cool, and then take a reading and adjust if necessary. Or is it more for taking notes for the next brew?


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## slash22000 (29/10/13)

I'm not a pH expert or anything, but I've read a lot of debate as to whether or not to bother trying to adjust the mash on the fly. A lot of people seem to use mash pH as a "Something to note for the next brew" sort of thing.

That being said it shouldn't take long to cool down a sample, it's not like you're sampling entire litres worth of wort.


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## Spiesy (29/10/13)

Understood.

Would the mash pH change over time as more "things" are absorbed into the wort from the grain?


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## slash22000 (29/10/13)

Yes. The consensus seems to be the ideal time to measure is around 15 - 20 minutes into the mash.


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## manticle (29/10/13)

slash22000 said:


> Well I'll be damned. Good pick up.


Most pH tests have been carried out on cool/room temp wort though so it is better practice to use room temp samples to emulate. Also better for pH meters to be measuring at lower temp.


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## manticle (29/10/13)

Spiesy said:


> Understood.
> 
> Would the mash pH change over time as more "things" are absorbed into the wort from the grain?


To an extent. Phosphates in the mash act as a buffer and resist change so the mash will kind of set itself at a point.


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## verysupple (29/10/13)

bum said:


> ~50g of hops in the boil and water is your problem?
> 
> Doubt it.


I think I agree with bum here, although maybe for a different reason. Different hops (or sometimes even different harvests of the same hop) can give very different bittering characteristics. There are many other things that affect percieved bitterness and the character of bitterness too. I'm not saying it's not the water profile, I'm just saying it's not the first thing I would be looking into.


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## mabrungard (30/10/13)

ricardo said:


> Hi Martin just done a few calculations on your spreadsheet and have a quick question.
> 
> It states that my estimated PH of the mash at room temperature will be 5.2 and gives me a green box. Doesn't this mean that the PH at actual mash temperature would be about 4.9, is that not too low?


At mashing temperature, the pH is lower. However, we have standardized on measuring and reporting mash pH at room temperature for a multitude of reasons. 

A 5.2 pH may be low depending upon the beer style. The more typical 'average' mash pH target is around 5.4. You may want to boost the pH a bit if you don't intend to produce a tart beer.


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## slash22000 (30/10/13)

Is there a list somewhere of recommended mash pH levels by beer style? There is a lot of discussion on ideal pH levels varying between styles but I can't seem to find recommended pH levels anywhere.


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## manticle (30/10/13)

Could start with optiumum pH for individual enzyme activity and work backwards. ie - want to favour beta activity for a driewr style, optimise pH for beta.


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## mabrungard (31/10/13)

slash22000 said:


> Is there a list somewhere of recommended mash pH levels by beer style? There is a lot of discussion on ideal pH levels varying between styles but I can't seem to find recommended pH levels anywhere.


I've never seen a listing per beer styles, but I've included a broader guidance in Bru'n Water. Tart styles: 5.2 to 5.3, Pale styles: 5.3 to 5.4, Darker styles: 5.4 to 5.5.


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## verysupple (31/10/13)

slash22000 said:


> Is there a list somewhere of recommended mash pH levels by beer style? There is a lot of discussion on ideal pH levels varying between styles but I can't seem to find recommended pH levels anywhere.


I found this presentation by Weyermann about pH in the brewery. About half way through there's a slide with typical mash pHs of some styles. An interesting read if you can ignore the sales pitch (they're trying to sell acidulated malt).

http://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Weyermann_TKW_Mash-pH_2010.pdf

EDIT: Corrected wrong info.
2nd EDIT: After actually reading it again those pH values seem pretty low, but I'll let everyone decide for themselves whether to believe it or not.


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## mabrungard (1/11/13)

Yeah, those pH values are typical for finished beers. Not mash pH. There are a few slides later in that presentation that seem to target the more typical mashing pH range of 5.2 to 5.6. I think the author just mis-labeled the title of the table, it should have read 'beer pH'.


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## verysupple (3/11/13)

mabrungard said:


> Yeah, those pH values are typical for finished beers. Not mash pH. There are a few slides later in that presentation that seem to target the more typical mashing pH range of 5.2 to 5.6. I think the author just mis-labeled the title of the table, it should have read 'beer pH'.


Ah, good to know. Serves me right for only Ctrl+F-ing "style" instead of actually skimming through it and looking for the relevant slide. It's been a long time since I actually read it properly.


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## ricardo (4/1/14)

Sorry to drag this up again but I have a question regarding bicarbonates. Most literature and forums that I read suggest that bicarbonate levels be kept below 50 ppm for pale beers, however the Randy Mosher pale ale profile states that the bicarbonate level should be 110 ppm. The reason I ask is that I am having real difficulty in keeping the bicarbonate level under 50 ppm (it is 38 ppm out of the tap). When brewing pales I need to increase alkalinity as the pH seems to be around 5.2 at room temperature which I believe is too low, the downside is that the raise in alkalinity increases the bicarbonates pushing me way over 50 ppm.

Distilled water in Oz is too expensive and I do not have an RO system, anybody have any ideas?


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## mabrungard (7/1/14)

In the case of that pale ale profile, it is loaded with calcium and magnesium which drive the residual alkalinity (RA) of the water down. RA would be far too negative if the water's alkalinity were very low. So having a bit of alkalinity in the case of that water profile is OK. That helps keep the mash pH and resulting kettle wort pH up. Colin Kaminsky has observed that a kettle wort pH of about 5.4 is best for hop-focused beers to help enhance the hop bittering and expression. If you brew a hoppy beer with the pale ale profile that didn't have enough alkalinity, the pH would likely end up several tenths lower than that.

If you have water with high alkalinity and the other ions aren't over the limit, then you may be able to create a decent pale ale profile with mineral additions and possibly a bit of acid to knock out some alkalinity if its too high.


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## kahlerisms (23/8/14)

slash22000 said:


> Just make sure calcium is over 50 and chloride/sulfate ratio is ~1:3 (1 part chloride to 3 parts sulfate). EDIT: Just realised your original profile coincidentally hits the 1:3 ratio almost exactly. 28 CL to 85 SO4 = 1.00:3.04


? 

When I plug Ricardo's additions (16g gypsum, 1.6 cacl, 5.6 epsom) into my EZ spreadsheet I certainly don't get 1:3. 
How'd you get 85 S04?

I end up with 268 S04, which is a chloride:sulfate ratio of 0.11, not the 0.33 we're aiming for.

(i know this is an old thread but this stuff doesn't really change)


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## ricardo (25/8/14)

kahlerisms said:


> ?
> When I plug Ricardo's additions (16g gypsum, 1.6 cacl, 5.6 epsom) into my EZ spreadsheet I certainly don't get 1:3.
> How'd you get 85 S04?
> 
> ...


I've since moved away from the whole sulfate chloride ratio as i don't believe it relevant. A beer with 30 ppm sulfate and 15 ppm chloride would have a totally different taste to 400 ppm sulfate and 200 ppm chloride. I've just been using trial and error and i believe i'm now refining thing to my taste


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## kahlerisms (25/8/14)

How does Randy's Pale Ale water profile match your taste?


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