# Mash Out Question



## Crusty (13/3/11)

This is aimed at you guys that run a Herms system.
After your 60min sacc rest, are you guys adding any more water to the mash tun for your mashout, or are you simply ramping your temp up to mashout temps with the same volume of water that you doughed in with?
I use Beer Tools Pro & for my 25lt APA it says to strike in with ( rounded figures ) 14l, mashout with 11l & sparge with 16l.

Cheers


----------



## gregs (13/3/11)

I ramp my temp to mash out with no additional water, although my water to grain ratio will hover between 3.75 4.5 litres per kg. And I do a single batch sparge, using the same volume sparge as what comes out of the mash.


----------



## Crusty (13/3/11)

gregs said:


> I ramp my temp to mash out with no additional water, although my water to grain ratio will hover between 3.75 4.5 litres per kg. And I do a single batch sparge, using the same volume sparge as what comes out of the mash.



I dough in @ 2.75lt/kg usually. I might factor into my recipe 3.75lt/kg & see what that looks like. Do you find your efficiency suffers at all with the thinner mash or is it a no issue with the thinner vs thicker mash.


----------



## NickB (13/3/11)

Just ramp on my system. I tend to mash in with approx half the total volume needed, then ramp and sparge.

Cheers


----------



## Punkal (13/3/11)

When you sparge normally you want a thicker mass so you have high enough enzyme concentration but i was thinking if you are using a HERMS you are circulating the wort a few times so the enzyme concentration my not be as important because the wort and theirfor enzymes are moved through the wort... What do you think...


----------



## gregs (13/3/11)

Crusty my efficiency is normally between 80 83 % with a single infusion @ 66 degree. I have always used this method, mostly because it is how I was taught and it works well.

I use beer-smith and when doing up a recipe I subtract the grain amount from the infusion water, then adjust the water to grain ratio so as the first runnings equal the batch sparge amount. 

A rough example for a double batch @ water to grain ratio of 4.25 would be - 11.5 kg of grain infuse with 48.8 litres of water (48.8 11.5 = 37.3 litres for the first runnings) the batch sparge would be 37.5 litres with my gear and boil percentage.

I hope that makes sense.

gregs.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (13/3/11)

People have some weird ideas about what sort of mash thickness you need before you suffer ill effects because the enzymes are spread too "thinly"

In commercial brewing 3-4:1 is nothing unusual in simple isothermal mashes, and in stirred mashes 4-5:1 is not only "not unusual" its probably approaching normal, especially for decoction or cereal mash systems. And if looking at commercial systems doesn't calm teh fears, then just look at BIAB brewing. 6-7:1 ratios, no problem with poor conversion that I have ever heard of. As far as i am concerned, unless you are using unusually high amounts of starchy adjunct, with decent modern malt there is essentially no practical limit to how high an L:G ratio you can use without an issues.

Back to the Orginal Topic. I run a RIMs and mash in at 3-4:1 L/kg - ramp to mashout with the heat-ex before a stock standard continuous sparge at 78C. I prefer the ramp to mashout temperature. I like the fact that it can help to access _and convert_ some of the starches that have higher gelatinisation temperatures - whereas a "sudden" mashout is more likely to access those starches but denature the emzymes before they get a chance to do the job of converting them too; maybe giving me starch haze. Pedantic i know, but i have a RIMS and thats one of the reasons why - i can be pedantic about that sort of stuff without it being a PITA

TB


----------



## Crusty (13/3/11)

Thanks everyone,
Definitely more than one way to skin a cat so to speak.
I'll have a fiddle with my recipes & I might have a go at striking in with a higher water to grain ratio & adjust my sparge volume to compensate.

Cheers


----------



## raven19 (13/3/11)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Back to the Orginal Topic. I run a RIMs and mash in at 3-4:1 L/kg - ramp to mashout with the heat-ex before a stock standard continuous sparge at 78C.



+1 here Crusty.


----------



## speedie (15/3/11)

tb if these breweries are using 7:1 volumes for mashing 
what do you expect that there water ratio to beer would be
ie how many litres of water during production to final beer volume
i wont quote exact numbers but it is down in the 5:1 mark
condidering that there is evaporation grain absobation cleaning etc 
it is hard to see how it is do
most micros would be around 10:1


----------



## NickB (15/3/11)

And again Speedie, you've managed to completely avoid the topic at hand.  The discussion is about mashing out and it's effects on the final product.

Cheers


----------



## speedie (15/3/11)

so mick is tb answer a miss or two part and gets marks for adverse statement


----------



## Bribie G (15/3/11)

who's mick?


----------



## Thirsty Boy (16/3/11)

speedie did indeed miss the point - but I will hold my breath in hope and reply to what he asked/stated anyway.

Speedie - the amount of water used to produce a litre of beer is an industry standard "comparative" measurement. One that has become increasingly important in recent years from an environmental perspective, especially in countries like Australia that have been suffering from drought and water shortages.

Worldwide the average figure is somewhere around the 4or5:1 mark - it can get as high as 10:1 in old breweries in places with no water supply issue; and world's best practise is ATM to be found in Australia. The best is CUB's Yatala plant @ 2.3:1 and the Abbotsford plant around 2.6:1. I can only imagine that the Lion Nathan plants would be pretty close to those figures and the other biggish breweries too, they may have even done better in the last year or so. Small brewers would certainly be higher.

Now none of that has anything at all to do with L:G ratios at mash in, nor with mashing out, so I'm not quite sure why you mentioned it - but thats my reasonably well educated understanding of the situation.


----------



## Bribie G (16/3/11)

As you may know I love to troll the Newspapers online comments - I have numerous sock puppets with their own email accounts. :icon_cheers: 
Some lesbian separatist "keep the radioactive whales in the ground" vegan retard was whining about "it takes three litres of water to make one litre of beer". 
So I shot back "it takes 20,000 litres of water to grow one kilo of rice". 
That shut them up.


----------



## speedie (17/3/11)

<H3 class=greenStyle>Bluetongue Brewery</H3>One of the most innovative sustainability projects is the $6.5 million wastewater treatment plant at our new $120 million Bluetongue Brewery on the Central Coast of NSW, commissioned at the end of the first half of 2010. The water treatment plant will utilise the latest technologies available including anaerobic (methane reactor), aerobic (membrane biological reactor) and reverse osmosis treatments to produce high quality reusable water. This recycled water will be channelled into the general maintenance of the brewery including wash down and cleaning, boilers, refrigeration, staff amenities, fire water top-up and landscaping.

The methane reactor will convert organic content into biogas, a renewable energy source which will power one of the Brewery's boilers. "Flash pasteurisation" and plastic and stainless steel conveyors to minimise continuous water lubrication will further reduce water and energy use.

Bluetongue's master brewers will be aiming to achieve world's best practice water use ratios of 2.2 to 2.3 L/FBL for the beer production.

what would you expect there grain to water mash in ratio would be


----------



## NickB (17/3/11)

Ummm, WTF has that question got to do with the quote you posted, and why are you fixated with the L:G ratio?

Clearly the 2.2-2.3L quoted in the article is total water usage per L of beer produced, so it's irrelevant how thick or thin their mashes are. It's the TOTAL volume used.

FFS, well done on derailing another thread Speedie.  Well 'effn done.


----------



## gregs (17/3/11)

Speedie you prove to be the type of person that walks into a pub and everyone turns there back and pretends they havent spotted you; some make for the car park, the toilets become full and before long the place has emptied.



I think that would some up your life Speedie.



Now mashing out with a herms is what the OP is asking about, do you have any useful input?


----------



## Thirsty Boy (17/3/11)

tried to be reasonable, didn't work - oh well


----------



## Crusty (17/3/11)

Thanks everyone for your input & suggestions.
The thread is starting to get off topic & a little narky so it's time to put this one to bed.
I have decided to strike in with 3.75l/kg for my next brew, & will not alter my inital mash in volume ( 19lts ) & simply ramp the PID to mash out temp & re-circulate via the Herms for 10mins. Batch sparge with 21lts according to recipe & see how it goes.

Cheers


----------



## speedie (18/3/11)

i dont use a recirc system but if i did i would use the heater to raise the grain to sparge temp as i feel that there is a better contact time with the grain
going through the band from sacriffication up to 77-80 which ever temp is your preferance

and no it is the opposite when i walk into a pub where i know people they are all ways welcoming

my point with mash grain ratios is that i would suspect that they would be very low and not 7-8:1 as was mentioned
when a brewery achieves a 2.5:1 beer water result
o well i tried to reason with you people
learnard or not


----------



## speedie (18/3/11)

NickB said:


> Just ramp on my system. I tend to mash in with approx half the total volume needed, then ramp and sparge.
> 
> Cheers




hay nick please explain what is half the total volume needed

is it for what mashing or your brew length

it is a wild statement


----------



## NickB (18/3/11)

Mash in with half the total water, ramp up via the HERMS to mash out and then drain to the kettle. Other half of the water is pumped into the MLT and re-cirulated until clear, then sparged to kettle.

If I used my total water volume straight up it would be 'no sparging' and my efficiency would likely suffer badly.

Nothing wild about my statement mate, perhaps your understanding is a bit off (not sure where I got that idea from).

Cheers


----------



## QldKev (18/3/11)

Using the example from Gregs above
_A rough example for a double batch @ water to grain ratio of 4.25 would be - 11.5 kg of grain infuse with 48.8 litres of water (48.8 11.5 = 37.3 litres for the first runnings) the batch sparge would be 37.5 litres with my gear and boil percentage._


Would it be feasible to say
Mash in with 30L
Then at time of mashout add 15L from the HLT to get to mash out temps faster - allow the HERMS/RIMS to recirc and stabilise the temps
Then batch sparge with 30L 

I'm just forward thinking for my planned system. I will be having a larger size brew, and am worried about my ramp up times. Hitting it with the Water from the HLT would get me to Mashout temps faster. 

Would 30L even be enough for 11.5kg grain, as it would be about 2.6:1 ratio? I do remember reading someone quoted 2.5 to 3:1 being normal.

QldKev



edit:
I was just reading a post by screwy who said he aims for 2.75:1 then rounds up
So if I followed this, I could use (2.75 * 11.5 = 31.625) Mash in water 32L
HLT infusions mashout addition 11L
Batch sparge water 32L

If the 11L of mashout addition was at 99c I calc that would get me to 74c, so the RIMS would only have to ramp the last 4c.
Temp calculated from http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter16-3.html 

This would need to be adjusted to suit my system.
Am I on track?


QldKev


----------



## cdbrown (18/3/11)

Double batch herms - I aim for 3:1 ratio, any thicker and it'll be a stuck mash. I'd go thinner but it's pretty much at vessel capacity at that amount. I use the HERMS to increase the temp of the mash. I set it to reach 80c over 15mins and then hold 80c. The mash takes about 20mins to get up to 75c. I might change the PID ao it's target temp is 80c straight away rather than ramping. That should speed up the mash out process in the tun.

Crusty - just change the type of mash profile to a temperature mash (well that's what I use in Beersmith)


----------



## speedie (18/3/11)

whats the hurry to get to rinse temps 
we have all day most of us


----------



## raven19 (18/3/11)

speedie said:


> whats the hurry to get to rinse temps
> we have all day most of us



Unless you want to do more than one batch in a day like many of us often do.


----------



## speedie (21/3/11)

raven so you would hurry through a vital part of brewing too save what 40 minutes?


----------



## cdbrown (21/3/11)

speedie - why is it important to slowly raise to the mash out temp? Beersmith has a 10min default to raise the temp. Once I'm at the temp I'll hold it there for 10mins before draining.

Time for brewing is few and far between due to busy weekends and a young child to spend time with. I'm generally brew in the night after work so saving 40mins means getting to bed before midnight. I'm getting the house to myself for a few days so planning on brewing double batches over the next three nights so any where I can reduce the time I will.


----------



## Thirsty Boy (21/3/11)

I think slowly raising to mashout is better than quickly raising to mashout, for reasons i have explained in this thread already, however ...

Qldkev - If you are batch sparging, then (aside from the fact that there is no particular reason to mash out at all if you are batch sparging) you dont have to do two additons.... If your tun has room, just do one. Simply calculate your sparge water temperature so that in your example above, instead of adding 15L to get to mashout and then 30 of sparge, you just add 45 water altogether at a temperature that once you stir it up, will take your entire mash volume up to 76-78 degrees.

If you do decide to do two additions... I would just stick with adding two equal amounts as "sparge" additions, and if you target the right temp, your first sparge will raise the temp of the mash 2/3rds-3/4s of the way to mashout, and the second will get it all the way there... getting done everything you want from a mashout along the way.

All you need to do is pop your kettle heat source on as soon as you have the bottom of the kettle covered and all the wort you have drained out that is less than "mashout" temperature, soon wont be - while your sparge additions take care of whats in the tun.

Deliberately raising the whole volume of the mash, by infusions, by a recirculating system or by direct heat, _before_ you begin to sparge is something that only makes sense for continuous sparge systems with lengthy sparge times (unless you are looking for the admittedly small benefit of the slow ramp to mashout which I described earlier, in which case of course - speeding up the process with an infusion is counter productive)

With batch sparging, you just dont need to do it, and you get essentially the same effect anyway with no effort required, just bybthinking a little bit about your sparge water temperatures.


----------



## QldKev (21/3/11)

Thanks for the reply Thirsty Boy. 

The local HERMS brewers raise the temp to mashout, drain into the kettle, then perform just 1 batch sparge. I was wanting to follow the same procedure, as you said using the HERMS/RIMS to raise the temp does have benefits. The only reason I am asking questions is I will be using just a 2400w element for a RIMS and my system will be for brews of up to 100L; so I have concern on how long it may take to ramp up the temps. 

The idea of no mashout may benefit me for days when I need to finish quicker, and then just wait for the RIMS to get to mashout when I have the time. I assume it may take 45mins to get up to mash out temps; allowing about a 50% cycle on the RIMS.

QldKev


----------



## manticle (21/3/11)

speedie said:


> imy point with mash grain ratios is that i would suspect that they would be very low and not 7-8:1 as was mentioned
> when a brewery achieves a 2.5:1 beer water result
> o well i tried to reason with you people
> learnard or not



Thirsty boy mentioned a range of between 3:1 and 4:1 as common in big commercial breweries.

7:1 was mentioned in relation to BIAB (brew in a bag) which is essentially a homebrewing technique.

He mentioned some commercial breweries may mash in as high as 10:1 but the general gist was between 3 and 5.

TB works in a large commercial brewery so presumably he more than 'suspects. I think he may work with Leonard.


----------



## bradsbrew (21/3/11)

I do pretty much what Thirsty just explained. I have a 50L HLT, a 50L MLT and a 100L kettle my normal brew is 66L so my mash in amount is enough to almost fill the tun then at mash out I go straight into the kettle at mash temp and turn Rambo on low once the bottom of kettle is covered. I then sparge 2 lots of 25L first one usually hits mash out temp and the second hits sparge temp. Prior to having a pump I would let it sit for 10 minutes after each sparge addition but now I have been letting each addition recirc for 5-10 minutes then send to kettle. I have found with the perastaltic pump the wort is almost at boil when the last of the second sparge is in the kettle. Gives me about 80L into the kettle and 66L into cubes after 90min boil.

Cheers


----------



## raven19 (21/3/11)

speedie said:


> raven so you would hurry through a vital part of brewing too save what 40 minutes?



My ramp up to mash out temp is part of my schedule speedie. I set the RIMS to 78 then let it get up to that temp. I wouldn't say I 'rush' this part, generally takes my system around 10 - 15mins to get from mash temp to mashout temp (78)

For a typical 22L batch for my system, I get a pretty consistent ramp up time - this will allow me to judge different mash regimes compared to final gravity, etc.

All the above is suitable for *me *on *my *system, but of course each to his or her own! Cheers.


----------



## raven19 (21/3/11)

QldKev said:


> The idea of no mashout may benefit me for days when I need to finish quicker, and then just wait for the RIMS to get to mashout when I have the time. I assume it may take 45mins to get up to mash out temps; allowing about a 50% cycle on the RIMS.



Not to drag this too far :icon_offtopic: but, Kev - could you introduce a switch to bypass the PID on the RIMS until you get closer to your mashout temp? Means you would have to watch it like a hawk though!


----------



## speedie (21/3/11)

based on lets say 1 degree raise in 1 minute from 68 -78 you are looking at 10 minutes of time (basis for beersmiths assumption) provided your input power can keep up with these requirements
with bigger input lower times are achieveable
so at mash out temps we are trying to deactiveate enzymes and get a viscosity congusive to good sugar drainage from grain
my preferance is to go the whole hog in raising temperature by power input as opposed to infusing hotter water than mash out temps to obtain the result
higher temperatures will induce tannin extraction from husk
this may or may not be noticable to you but it is still there
cheers speedster


----------



## gregs (21/3/11)

What power inputs and system do you have to raise temps from mash in too mash out on your 400 litre brewery?


----------



## speedie (21/3/11)

well gregs 
i use three four ring gas buners under varing vessels
but if your question is serious which i doubt
the equation is specific heat of wort x td x litres = input or power requirement
does this help from a steaming turd
speedie


----------



## gregs (21/3/11)

Yeah thats about what Id expect from a Google brewer, steaming away on his own horizon.


----------



## QldKev (21/3/11)

speedie said:


> well gregs
> i use three four ring gas buners under varing vessels
> but if your question is serious which i doubt
> the equation is specific heat of wort x td x litres = input or power requirement
> ...




A 4 ring burner under a 400L brew pot = bullshit. Piss off with your dribble idiot!


----------



## felten (21/3/11)

maybe its 3 four ring burners under 3 150L kettles... right?!


----------



## QldKev (21/3/11)

felten said:


> maybe its 3 four ring burners under 3 150L kettles... right?!



Not sure what he would be using for the rest of his brewery then, and why would he just simply state the fact and post some pics if people are doubting him? Just he states some really stupid ideas and is supposed to run a 400L brewery. IMHO I don't think a 4ring burner would run a 150L kettle with a decent rolling boil. I know I'm power hungry but I have 2 nasa burners under my 140L pot. 

QldKev


----------



## speedie (21/3/11)

kev simply by your ststements you have no idea do ya

and i dont have to prove jack to ya


----------



## gregs (21/3/11)

Maybe it's the power of Speedie's verbal diarrhoea that brings things to a boil. :lol:


----------



## felten (21/3/11)

I forgot boil off, trub and cooling loss, so maybe three 180L kettles


----------



## speedie (21/3/11)

united banna power 
aint nuffin like it


----------



## QldKev (21/3/11)

speedie said:


> kev simply by your ststements you have no idea do ya
> 
> and i dont have to prove jack to ya




You've already proved jack to me! That you are full of shit!


----------



## gregs (21/3/11)

felten said:


> I forgot boil off, trub and cooling loss, so maybe three 180L kettles




Piss'n myself :lol:


----------



## speedie (23/3/11)

no comments from b1 or b2 ?


----------

