# Increasing maltiness in Aussie PAs



## Bribie G (7/6/13)

Entered some Aussie Pales in the ESB comp and got a couple of gongs - much appreciated. Got scoresheets back yesterday and the criticism from all the judges was "_lack of maltiness_". I used domestic malt, actually the last of my JW Ale, plus a smallish proportion of wheat malt. I would imagine that's very similar to what Coopers uses.

The common wisdom is to mash at low 60s for this style and I wonder if this could account for the low malt notes.

Just ordered a sack of UK Simpsons Maris Otter and wondering about using it in a comp Australian Pale Ale I'll be brewing next week, with perhaps half a kilo of wheat malt. Anyone use UK base malt for Coopers style clones? I'll suck it and see anyway.


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## Mardoo (7/6/13)

Maybe a different yeast too? I've been messing with different yeasts on the same brews and am pretty astonished with the results.


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## Bribie G (7/6/13)

I've just kegged an AusPA 150 lashes style with plenty of POR but done on Wyeast American Ale 2 - should be interesting.


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## Midnight Brew (7/6/13)

What was your grain bill Bribie? Maybe include 20-30% munich to back it up. For an American pale ale 20-30% would be normal for me but for an Australian pale ale I would of thought it could be left out all together.


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## mje1980 (7/6/13)

Carahell is good at adding maltiness without adding too much crystal like flavour.


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## QldKev (7/6/13)

I'd be careful going to mo for an aussie. I think it would be too full on. Maybe gp or perle could be used. But I would look at bb ale with a little munich or even caramunich


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## wessmith (7/6/13)

Aussie domestic malt on its own will not deliver that malty trait the judges are looking for. Most domestic brewers add small amounts of crystal or munich to beef up the malt profile. While I enjoy Coopers and some of the Jimmy Squire brews, I am not so keen on that crystal route. Simpsons MO will give you a genuine malty beer without the need for crystal but will be different form the Aussie style. Try a little crystal wheat also - that will dry out the flavour profile slightly.

Yeast is also important as you need an ester profile to emulate the so called Aussie Pale style. Carefully balanced, esters can simulate malt like characteristics.

Wes



Bribie G said:


> Entered some Aussie Pales in the ESB comp and got a couple of gongs - much appreciated. Got scoresheets back yesterday and the criticism from all the judges was "_lack of maltiness_". I used domestic malt, actually the last of my JW Ale, plus a smallish proportion of wheat malt. I would imagine that's very similar to what Coopers uses.
> 
> The common wisdom is to mash at low 60s for this style and I wonder if this could account for the low malt notes.
> 
> Just ordered a sack of UK Simpsons Maris Otter and wondering about using it in a comp Australian Pale Ale I'll be brewing next week, with perhaps half a kilo of wheat malt. Anyone use UK base malt for Coopers style clones? I'll suck it and see anyway.


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## Bizier (7/6/13)

I would add a small amount of domestic dark munich or a larger amount of a regular domestic munich. I would not add crystal myself because you want it to have that dry finish. You could also swap a much larger portion of the grist for domestic vienna malt.


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## slash22000 (7/6/13)

Why not do a mix of ale malt and Marris Otter? I've seen recipes for IPA's etc that recommend a 50/50 mix 2-row and Marris Otter, no crystal malts, to add "malty" without crystal sweetness.


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## Bribie G (7/6/13)

Seeing as I'm getting the MO I might try a 75/25 blend to see what happens, plenty of time to do a couple of pilots before the NSW comp.

The grain bill was 4600g Joe White and 600g BB Wheat Malt.

What I'm also thinking of doing is adding just a tad, and I mean a tad of Carafa 2 for a touch of colour. I know that some domestic beers such as Reschs Original Draught use a bit of Roast Barley and I just about nailed Reschs doing that - looking for a little bit of colour without resorting to crystals. I remember when Coopers Sparkling was almost orange but they've lightened it heaps for the "youth" market I guess.


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## manticle (7/6/13)

How sure are you that the judges knew what they were talking about?

A lot of judging feedback is pus - I wouldn't run around changing recipes unless you taste it yourself and think they are right.


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## Bribie G (7/6/13)

Good point, with my AusPAs I take Coopers Sparkling as my tasting benchmark - time to get in a few longnecks for the season :beerbang:


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## AndrewQLD (7/6/13)

As Wes said the right yeast will go a long way to adding the perception of maltiness this style, the bready character that is produced by some yeasts can also be interpreted by judges as malty.


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## Bribie G (7/6/13)

Andrew, I was under the impression that for a BJCP based competition the yeast really had to be recultured Coopers. However on reading the style guidelines I see:

_Burton_ yeast, eg. Coopers, Worthingtons. Multiple strains common historically

Have you made AusPAs using other yeasts? Hadn't thought of using domestic ingredients and hops with a UK yeast. Interesting that sulphates are mentioned for AusPAs and also Burton style ales, so some link up there I'd guess.


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## AndrewQLD (7/6/13)

To be honest Bribie I only ever seriously used two yeasts for this style, the recultured Coopers bottle yeast when I first started brewing it and the whitelabs WLP009, for my money the WLP009 is the stand out for quality and repeatability and has a beautiful bread and malt aroma that is awesome.


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## Bribie G (7/6/13)

Always bought from CraftBrewer who only do Wyeast, but must give the WLP009 a go. Do you mean they actually pinched some Coopers and recultured it at Whitelabs?


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## /// (7/6/13)

Using any water salts? At the last IBU event you could taste the beers with and without salts, the balance was out and tended towards hollow for those without salts. Remember Chloride is your friend with hoppy beers, add some. Whats your water? I can figure out some suggestions (pm me if I do not see this thread for a bit)

I am a fan of munich, or less crystal and a higher stand temp. My world famous AIBA silver winning IPA (sarcasm button on) I use a smidge of crystal and mash at over 70. With correct water salts and almost 5gm per litre of dry hops, comes out a treat. Per Wes, too much crystal and it tastes like tin.

Scotty


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## Bribie G (7/6/13)

I thought chloride was for malty and sulphate for hoppy? I usually put some Calcim Sulphate and Magnesium Sulphate in for Aussie Ales, and lagers. Water here tends to be soft and the town water is filtered through membrane then carbon filters (voted best tasting in NSW).


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## AndrewQLD (7/6/13)

Bribie G said:


> Always bought from CraftBrewer who only do Wyeast, but must give the WLP009 a go. Do you mean they actually pinched some Coopers and recultured it at Whitelabs?


According to Chris White it is the Coopers strain, I asked him at the first ANHC I went to and he didn't hesitate to confirm it, nice guy.


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## Bribie G (7/6/13)

Only available March and April by the looks of it. Not to worry, if Allah spares me I'll get some next year 
I would expect that Coopers wouldn't object if it spreads recognition of the Aus style, couldn't harm their bottle and kit sales.

edit: and if cultured in the lab would probably be more reliable than breeding it up in a bucket in the garage.


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## stux (7/6/13)

> Entered some Aussie Pales in the ESB comp and got a couple of gongs - much appreciated. Got scoresheets back yesterday and the criticism from all the judges was "_lack of maltiness_". I used domestic malt, actually the last of my JW Ale, plus a smallish proportion of wheat malt. I would imagine that's very similar to what Coopers uses.
> 
> The common wisdom is to mash at low 60s for this style and I wonder if this could account for the low malt notes.
> 
> Just ordered a sack of UK Simpsons Maris Otter and wondering about using it in a comp Australian Pale Ale I'll be brewing next week, with perhaps half a kilo of wheat malt. Anyone use UK base malt for Coopers style clones? I'll suck it and see anyway.


If I wanted a bit more maltiness in an Aussie Pale Ale, I'd just throw in a bit of Munich. Anything else will either be too sweet, or will change the character too much (like using an english malt)


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## Bribie G (7/6/13)

Just ran out of the last of my Melanoidin which could have done something similar :huh:


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## manticle (7/6/13)

As a whacky idea -keep the au base but try a decoction.


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## /// (7/6/13)

Ahh come on manticle, a learnered gent as yourself knows better ..


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## Tony (8/6/13)

Aussie Ale malt, 5 to 10% JW caramalt and 1272

I really doubt coopers ..... or any large comercial brewing venture uses the malts available to us home brewers.

They would have a custom malt made to their specifications to make the beer they want to make


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## manticle (8/6/13)

/// said:


> Ahh come on manticle, a learnered gent as yourself knows better ..



I think the results might be interesting.

Obviously I don't believe it's key to a decent AU pale - my earlier post sums up what I think is happening there.


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## jyo (8/6/13)

No expert at all, but I recently brewed a double batch of ANZAC ale, one cube using Coopers recultured, the other using British Ale II. Galaxy malt, 10% Munich II, 10% sugaz 10% Oats, POR, 29 IBU

While the cube fermented with British Ale only finished 1 gravity point higher than the coopers, the former seemed substantially maltier. We all preferred the British Ale hands down.

I think you guys are on the money with some perceived maltiness derived from yeast.


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## /// (8/6/13)

Using cacl2 with soften any huge hit of hops

Aussie malts are not made for all the deco toon jiggers pockery, could be fun but not that much gain. Big brew houses may not have all the fun, but all us smaller guys do ...


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## Bribie G (8/6/13)

Thanks for the explanation /// - actually one of the entries was criticised for bitterness and I'd snuck in a bit of Magnum for a background bittering then a fair bit of POR later to help with that "coopers whiff" you get when you pop a Sparkling. I'd used Sulphates - will try the CaCl2 next batch.

Would London ESB be a good malt- accenting yeast? Have a pack in the fridge right now.


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## manticle (8/6/13)

/// said:


> could be fun


Entirely what I meant by it - was a late night 'wonder what that would be like' scenario rather than a 'do this for your next comp' suggestion


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## warra48 (8/6/13)

Bribie G said:


> Would London ESB be a good malt- accenting yeast? Have a pack in the fridge right now.


If that's WY1968, or the WL equivalent (if there is one) , then yeah, it will certainly accentuate maltiness. Needs a real kick up the proverbial to get it to finish, and for me it kept slowly building carbonation in the bottle for months.


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## slash22000 (8/6/13)

Here's a thought. Have you tried roasting base malt?

I'm making a pale ale this weekend with ~10% home-roasted base malt instead of Munich/etc, just 15 minutes in the oven at 180ºC, supposed to give a good malty, nutty tone similar to biscuit malt without being "sweet". Anything longer than 15 - 20 minutes you're going to get more of a "toasted" flavour, but 15 is apparently the sweet spot for giving an interesting malty character without going into the darker malt characteristics.

Kitchen smelled great after the roasting. :lol:


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## /// (8/6/13)

manticle said:


> Entirely what I meant by it - was a late night 'wonder what that would be like' scenario rather than a 'do this for your next comp' suggestion


New that brother - but as the Aussie Malta are relatively low in nitrogen and highly converted decotions can affect head quality ... I'm sure that is right ... Will see if I can double chdck


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## manticle (8/6/13)

Well that's something I didn't know as I rarely use AU malts. Good to learn new shit.

A while back I was interested in the idea of using domestic ingredients to make an aussie lager but use German techniques to make it more complex. Never quite did the whole thing but maybe if I get time and inclination, i'll try JW or BB, traditional decocted step mash, PoR and danish lager yeast some time in the coming months.


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