# Help With Coopers Real Ale..advice Required



## dane111 (18/7/06)

hi guys,
got some good info from this site already. Ive made a few brews that turned out ok. Just about to brew a coopers real ale (couldnt find much advice on this topic using search function). Ive got brew enhancer 1, went down to the brew shop to get some light dry malt but the bloke talked me into getting a kilo of brewcraft #15 (malt, dextrose, corn syrup) which is only 25% malt (his reason was that adding straight malt would be too strong flavourwise...i haven't tried this before so couldnt really argue) anyway im thinking of adding the brew enhancer 1 and the brewcraft #15...im wanting higher alcohol content but im worried that adding this 2kg of mostly sugars will make the beer thin and tastless. should i use 2 cans of real ale to improve it? less volume, maybe 18-20L ? should i just go back and get dry malt and tell him to bugger his advice? Really need some help on this soon as im about to brew...thanx, any advice would be appreciated
Dane


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## Voosher (18/7/06)

"Too strong flavour wise"? Heaven help us.
I did this a while ago with 750g DME, 200g Crystal and 25g Goldings for a 10m boil and 10g Fuggles and even my flavour hating mate complimented the brew.
It does depend on what you generally like to drink but if you're using the standard kit yeast I think there is a risk of it being too dry with a great whack of dextrose. I would go the Brewcraft enhancer. Alternatively see if you can get a Brew Enhancer 2 or even one of the 500g Coopers DME packs from the supermarket.
If you're game I recommend trying to reculture the Coopers yeast out of the bottle for this one as well. It improves the flavour dramatically.
Then get yourself a decent HBS.
Too much malt? It's a Real Ale for crisesakes.
:blink:


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## underback (18/7/06)

Seems to me you already knew more than the HBS bloke :beer: . Shame he talked you out of using the malt. Sugars, bah. Now if you could exchange that brew enhancer for 1.5 kg's of liquid malt and some hops........


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## dane111 (18/7/06)

thaks for the help voosher..yeah i had a feeling the brew shop guy was a bit of a twat...anyway yeah i might try just using the brewcraft enhancer and add 500g of malt. how would i go about reculturing the yeast out of the bottle as you say? also what is a HBS? home brew setup? thanks for your help and patience with new brewers :beerbang:


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## Voosher (18/7/06)

dane111 said:


> thaks for the help voosher..yeah i had a feeling the brew shop guy was a bit of a twat...anyway yeah i might try just using the brewcraft enhancer and add 500g of malt. how would i go about reculturing the yeast out of the bottle as you say? also what is a HBS? home brew setup? thanks for your help and patience with new brewers :beerbang:



Sorry mate. It's all too easy to fall into speaking in TLA's. HBS = Home Brew Shop. Update your details with your location then folks will be able to let you know which place they use and recommend as well as other local advice.
You may also want to trawl through this thread...
Home Brew Shops
which may give you some helpful hints as well.

For reculturing yeast from Coopers bottles this is where I started.
Grumpy's Reculturing yeast article
However, you will need malt for the starter, which was the original problem, so it may or may not be a goer. Certainly worth bearing in mind for future brews regardless.
You may also want to do a search on the forum for "reculturing" or similar. There have been several discussions regarding reculturing yeast.

Cheers.


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## poppa joe (18/7/06)

I recently done.. Real Ale + Can of coopers liquid malt.....None left now ..Unfortunatley...
Try "hbkitreviews.com"...look for boozys sugar monster in Coopers Reviews...on Real Ale..
Cheers
PJ


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## matti (18/7/06)

Had a mate in southern highlands who use 500g dry pale malt and brewenhancer2 to his cooper kit. Not sure which yeast he used but he primed with raw sugar. Six weeks old it was quite drinkable.
I am with Voosher on reculturing Coopers yeast. It will improve any cooper ale tenfold.
Matti


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## mike_hillyer (18/7/06)

I love this kit and regularly do it with 1/2 kg of raw sugar and 1/2 kg of light dry malt with a pinch of goldings. I also do the above with 1/2 kg of honey instead of the raw sugar, 1/2 kg of light dry malt and give it a good whack of Saaz hops flowers that I get from a brew shop in called Malthouse Welshpool, WA (imported from Czech. Republic). Personally I usually upgrade to Safale for 1kg of powdered malt and use the spare yeast to do a double whack of yeat on my next real ale.


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## bconnery (19/7/06)

dane111 said:


> hi guys,
> got some good info from this site already. Ive made a few brews that turned out ok. Just about to brew a coopers real ale (couldnt find much advice on this topic using search function). Ive got brew enhancer 1, went down to the brew shop to get some light dry malt but the bloke talked me into getting a kilo of brewcraft #15 (malt, dextrose, corn syrup) which is only 25% malt (his reason was that adding straight malt would be too strong flavourwise...i haven't tried this before so couldnt really argue) anyway im thinking of adding the brew enhancer 1 and the brewcraft #15...im wanting higher alcohol content but im worried that adding this 2kg of mostly sugars will make the beer thin and tastless. should i use 2 cans of real ale to improve it? less volume, maybe 18-20L ? should i just go back and get dry malt and tell him to bugger his advice? Really need some help on this soon as im about to brew...thanx, any advice would be appreciated
> Dane



Not sure about the malt/dextrose/corn syrup percentages in those but corn syrup, or malto dextrin will not ferment out fully and will add body to your beer. 

If the dextrose percentage isn't too high you could still go for it I think. 

Brew Enhancer ! is something like 600g Dextrose 400g Malto Dextrin I think? Or is it malt and malto dextrin?

If your two kilos is not more than 50% dextrose all up I would give it a go. 

A bit of hops, particularly something like Fuggles or Goldings would be very good. 

Some crystal grains steeped and added to your boil wouldn't hurt either. 

And the other posters are right. Too much flavour?

The Hobgoblin beer quote springs to mind "What's the matter lager boy? Afraid you might taste something?"


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## Mackers (19/7/06)

I concur with Keep It Real - use a Safale yeast. I made this kit with a kilo of malt, 500gm dextrose and 25gm Fuggles. I used a Safale American Ale yeast which I had lying around. This has become a beautiful beer. 

In fact, I've come back to making kits over the last 12 months. The new Coopers series and the Black Rock ones are as good as the malt extract beers I've been making over the last 8 years or so. Using malt, some hops and a good yeast and I've been impressed with the flavour and heads of these modern kits.


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## mike_hillyer (19/7/06)

Mackers you would be able to really dress a can up with a partial mash. That way you get the flavour enhancing enzymes. I'm just learning this technique as a stepping stone to full mash. I will always do some cans because they are convenient, good quality and great to experiment with. The ESB 3kg cans and the Muntons Premium Gold are awesome! I did the Smugglers, check out the url:

http://www.muntons.com/homebeer/countries/...m_smugglers.htm


That one you can't boil as they have late hopped it.

If you feel like spoiling yourself


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## Mackers (20/7/06)

Agreed, KIR. I've made all the Muntons two-can range and they're top notch. I like the Muntons Gold yeast, too - throws a very clear beer.


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## dane111 (20/7/06)

thanks for all the help people. i think i will go ahead and add the full 2 kilos of sugars etc. Will add hops also if i can get my hands on some. Im also going to try reculturing yeast as suggested. Just a few questions about that....if making a coopers real ale..so how do i know which commercially produced beers are fermented (secondary) in the bottle? can anyone suggest a suitable donor? Also i wanted to know why this process would benefit my beer? How does different yeast alter the flavour of the beer? Wouldnt the only difference be the rate at which the sugars are fermented? Or do different yeasts produce different by-products that add to the beers flavour characteristics? Sorry for all the questions, just would be nice to know why im going to all this extra effort!...some help would be tops


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## mike_hillyer (20/7/06)

Bottled conditioned beers have sediment on the bottom unless they have been shook up.

That's a great question about yeasts, one I don't believe can answered in a few lines. I believe all brewers, including Trappist Monks are constantly clarifying it. That's why brewing is addictive!

Best explanation I found was ESB (Eastern States Brewers) and fact sheets from White Labs. Try those in a web search.

I brewed this kit and still brew it with many different combinations. I'm currently tweeking it with a partial mash. I find all the changes on the same kit really highlight the differences they make.

I wouldn't reculture, yet, I'd only change the yeast if you want to do an all malt. If you are do an all malt uses safale or a munton's gold which you can buy from brew shop. With all malt (1kg) you will need a finishing hop otherwise it will be too sweet. Hence the 1/2 kg raw sugar, 1/2 kg malt, packet yeast is the easiest.


Are using 2kg of malt? I'd limit whatever you add to 1kg otherwise you end up with a high alcohol low hopped brew that wont really ressemble beer as you know it.


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## bconnery (20/7/06)

dane111 said:


> Just a few questions about that....if making a coopers real ale..so how do i know which commercially produced beers are fermented (secondary) in the bottle? can anyone suggest a suitable donor? Also i wanted to know why this process would benefit my beer? How does different yeast alter the flavour of the beer? Wouldnt the only difference be the rate at which the sugars are fermented? Or do different yeasts produce different by-products that add to the beers flavour characteristics?



The short answer to your yeast question is it just does  The yeasts are all different. I don't know the true scientific answer but I would imagine it is to do with them having slighlty different chemical makeup and interacting differently with the wort, different by-products etc. 

Certainly the differences different yeasts can make to a beer is phenomal. 



As to which beers to culture from, if you search this site for yeast, or culturing yeast or similar combinations of search terms you should find something. 

You could just as easily buy something like safale so4, nottingham or windsor dry yeast as excellent choices for that kit.


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## Boozy the clown (20/7/06)

I'd say research a good strong yeast that tolerates higher boozy levels. If you load your brew up with too many fermentables some yeasts will just get drunk and drown. :excl: 

Pick a robust yeast that fits the style you like to drink, just check its tolerance levels to alcohol. Theres no law against drowning yeast but the final product may be sweeter than what you were after.

My beer guniea pigs like my beer but complain about the high level of alcohol in it. BTC.


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## Screwtop (21/7/06)

Why do different breweries use different yeasts, to maintain their particular flavour. Many yeasts are specific to a region, other breweries started out by selecting a yeast, which over time has morphed due to washing and repitching over time. These yeasts along with brewing practices develop particular habits which produce particular flavours and aromas. Now many have been recultured from the original source and are produced commercially so that brewers can select a particular yeast for a particular style. Go to it, grab a couple of tallies of Coopers keep them upright in the fridge for a couple of days then gently pour off the beer, saving the yeast from the bottom 25ml or so. Pour the yeast into a sanitised bottle and feed it (boil and then cool to 30c a mixture of 500ml water and 50g of dried malt extract). Shake it often for 24hrs. You will have an active culture in three days if kept in a warmish place (20 - 25c). Pitch it and taste the difference in your beer, smell the culture it will smell like a Coopers Brew, proof enough that yeast selection is important.


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## dane111 (23/7/06)

thanks for all the help. I have a much better understanding of what im doing and why im doing it now which is good. I went to a different breshop in greensborough in melbourne and can highly recommend it. The owner said he gets a lot of business from the clown in the unamed brewshop in burgundy st heidelberg. Although he doesnt stock nearly as much product his advice was much more valuable. I got 500g of light malt, suitable hops and a bung for my reculture which i've done and seems to be going well, i'll definately reculture all my yeasts if possible in future. Boozy bought up a good point that i hadn't considered...that the yeast may not be able to tolerate the high alcohol levels, I'll go ahead with the recultured coopers yeast (from sparkling ale) and see what happens. hopefully with the hops addition it doesnt turn out too sweet. anyway thanks everyone who conributed advice..im slightly less of an amateur than i was before! :beer: cheers


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## RobboMC (24/7/06)

I've done successful kit plus brews up to 2.5 kg added stuff; BUT not all sugars. Somewhere near half ( or all in my case as I love big malty beers ) of the extra needs to be malt, either dry or liquid. I find the liquid easier to get into wort, but dry is easier to store if you don't use the whole packet, and Coopers comes in 500g packets which is easier for small additions. 
Also a necessity will be some more hops to balance the extra malts.
Keep on aiming for great beer, just 1 kg of sugar with a kit only makes passable beer, you can do much better than that mate.

Also, some say reculturing the Pale Ale yeast ( green label ) is easier and better than the Sparkling Ale one. I have only tried done the Pale Ale and has success.


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## dane111 (24/7/06)

thanx robbo,
my brew is over 50% non sugars so it should be fine. I think i will try the pale ale yeast because I think i added the malt/water to the bottle before it had cooled enough and may have killed the yeast..? not sure...will try pale ale reculture next. another problem is that i keep drinking the long necks before i have a chance to do the reculture...gotta work on that...


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## mike_hillyer (24/7/06)

Don't rush you apprenticeship  that's why I said do a half malt, half sugar, maybe a finishing hop, with the kit yeast. 

Then go all malt, finishing hop with a safale yeast.

Then go all malt with cultured yeast. Culturing is not that easy the first time. I agree with you letting the bottles stand is even harder 

I've had four stocks of the real ale kit, each with a slight change and its fun to see the difference on the same can. I have never done a 1 kg of sugar since I first started brewing. 

Another recipe I like is:
Fair Dinkum Aussie Ale
1/2 kg of white sugar inverted
1/2kg of light powdered malt
1 Coopers Draught kit
finished with a pinch of pride of ringwood (preferably flowers)
rain water 
kit yeast

My cheapskate method is:
1 real ale kit 
500 grams of brown sugar ( I invert but optional)
18 litres of tap water ( I treat the water but optional)
Yields just over 2 cartoons

No finishing hop needed, sugar just over 20 % of brew so reasonably malty.


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