# Alternative to Recultured CPA yeast?



## Damien13 (29/4/13)

Howdy all.
Just after some opinions. I am well aware of the need to reculture CPA yeast in order to replicate 'that' aussie pale ale ester profile. BUT what if you can't?? Or what if the starter fails? What would be your second choice yeast. Mine would be S-04, but just after some other opinions. Oh, and the yeast kind of needs to be a dry one. However, if you have a liquid one that has worked well, then let me know!

Cheers folks,
Damien


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## Bribie G (29/4/13)

Don't Whitelabs do an Aussie Ale yeast? I've never tried it as my suppliers have been Wyeast only, haven't heard any reports about it. Have you had problems culturing or is it a hypothetical question?


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## Damien13 (29/4/13)

No probs culturing. Just want to advise a friend who freaks out at the thought of reculturing.. Figured I would give him an ideal answer (reculture) and a 'don't want to do any work' answer (dry yeast)...
Life is all about options I suppose.
Just checked out Craftbrewers website and they recommend K97 german ale. Am thinking about recommending a little satchet of coopers dry ale... but to be honest, I haven't used that for a few years, and am assuming it will taste shite... just hoping to tap into the brains trust I suppose.


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## tricache (29/4/13)

I've done a Coopers Pale Ale tin with the Coopers dried yeast and no CPA smell at all, not even slightly...I think you will only get that from the Coopers recultured yeast


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## Damien13 (29/4/13)

yeah.... I think you might be right. Just kinda hoping for a 'second best' yeast to recommend in case.


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## Damien13 (29/4/13)

Oh wow... I just became a brew master! HAHAHA


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## NewtownClown (29/4/13)

White Labs WLP 009

Mr Malty describes WLP 009 as being from Coopers


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## Nick JD (29/4/13)

What about that dry saison yeast? That'd tick the attenuation box, the fermenting warm box, the dry yeast box, and the pear esters as well.


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## Damien13 (29/4/13)

hmmm really? didn't think of that.. I have never used that yeast, nor tried a saison I liked so I would be pretty hesitant. You will need to bring a good saison to our next meeting Nick!


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## bignath (29/4/13)

If i was in a jam, and had no recultured yeast to use, i'd consider using Nottingham. Attenuates well, which should suit, and in my experience Notto leaves a little bit of a fruity profile behind compared to something really neutral like US05. 

Won't get really close to the results of reculturing, but if i had it, i wouldn't think twice about subbing it.


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## GalBrew (29/4/13)

I just ordered some WLP009, Core brewing concepts (no affiliation) have it in stock at the moment. I haven't used it yet, but have heard that it will do the trick for a CPA clone.


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## The Balding Bunyip (29/4/13)

I have an Aussie pale ale fermenting at the moment. I did a double batch and used US05 in half and SO4 in the other half. Can taste the difference in only 3 days. The US05 has more of the hop flavor and the 04S has a more malt profile....... both bloody tasty though.


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## Damien13 (29/4/13)

Ahhh this is what AHB is all about... Keep em coming fellas, you all rock!


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## Nick JD (29/4/13)

Damien13 said:


> You will need to bring a good saison to our next meeting Nick!


I only brew them in Jan/Feb when I can get average temps above 30C in my garage.

A mellow saison made with PoR and not fermented too hot comes out closer to CPA than you'd expect!


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## Damien13 (29/4/13)

hmmm might have to give that a crack... I reckon Notto is winning at the mo in terms of ease of use. I have a pack, so it is good to go. Much experience with Notto Nick? I have heard it is pretty explosive!


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## Nick JD (29/4/13)

I've never used any Danstar yeasts. Always heard they have attenuation or flavour-stripping qualities.


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## Lecterfan (29/4/13)

For my money Nick is spot on. wy3711 fermented cool is still a fantastic attenuator and comes out nice and dry and surprisingly 'clean' - still plenty of flavour, but if we are talking about coopers yeast we aren't talking 'neutral flavour', it (mostly) IS the flavour...

I haven't used the dried belle saison enough to comment, so not sure if it will perform cleanly but still with high attenuation at <20c like wy3711 will.

Notto makes beer though...just don't expect much hop profile to survive or any hugely interesting yeast characteristics.


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## Damien13 (29/4/13)

hmmm so could you compare Notto with US-05? or is it a bit fruitier? Did I just derail my own thread?? naah


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## bignath (29/4/13)

Damien13 said:


> hmmm so could you compare Notto with US-05? or is it a bit fruitier? Did I just derail my own thread?? naah


Not really.

I find them quite different, and I use both yeasts a lot. Others may differ in opinion. US05 is a really neutral yeast - it doesn't impart it's own flavour, nor does it really scrub out other flavours already in it. It's a great yeast for strong APA/IPA styles where you really just want your recipe to come through as intended. 

Notto (nottingham) ferments bullshit quick - i've had beers done and dusted inside 4days. But i find the same recipe fermented with Notto comes out a little fruitier, whether that's a characteristic of the yeast, or maybe it scrubs malt flavour to emphasise hop presence i'm unsure. But i can pick the difference between the two otherwise identical beers. (Double batch split between two cubes, fermented at the same time just with different yeasts).

As i said earlier, it won't get you all that close to CPA territory at all, but it's a good attenuator, so it'll ferment down low enough, similar to CPA, and if you can get the fruity thing from it like i sometimes get with it, then it won't be a bad beer at all.

If you're after the closest thing to using cpa yeast, then the suggestion of WL Aussie Ale is a good choice i'd reckon.


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## Damien13 (29/4/13)

Thanks Nath, what would be your best dry yeast choice for CPA clone then?


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## drsmurto (29/4/13)

I use WL009 all the time for Coopers Dark Ale. Currently have one in the fermenter. Also use it for the occasional sparkling ale and for pale ales for a camping trip. Haven't recultured coopers yeast in years due to the effort involved. A fresh vial is easy.

The one critical aspect when using the Coopers yeast is keeping it to 16C to get the pear esters only, any higher and it's all bananas.


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## Damien13 (29/4/13)

Hey Cool Thanks Dr Smurto. Any tips on a dry yeast you would chuck in to get kiiiiinda similar?


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## bignath (29/4/13)

If it was strictly based on dry yeasts?

Probably/Most likely yeah...

Just running through the main / most common ones:

US05 - neutral, bland, some say boring. Depends on what your brewing. APA? Great choice......but CPA is a looooooong way from a APA.

US04 - more commonly used in british beers. Definitely wouldn't do that. It's a good yeast, and i have some of it myself, but i personally wouldn't choose it.

WBO6 - Wheat beer yeast. I have a sachet of it, but never used it. Maybe experiment with different temps and it might throw a fruity flavour like i get in a lot of wheats...Dunno.

Nottingham - some say neutral, i don't find it that way. Leaves a fruity type thing in my beers. CPA is a very fruity,florally beer actually, so this would be getting closer to atleast having similar types of characteristics, even if they are not the same ones..Also is a very good attenuator, so mouth feel should be close.

Windsor - Dunno, i have some of that too, but haven't used it yet. I think from memory made by the same company (Danstar/Lallemand) - not that means anything.

No idea if this helps..


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## GalBrew (29/4/13)

DrSmurto said:


> I use WL009 all the time for Coopers Dark Ale. Currently have one in the fermenter. Also use it for the occasional sparkling ale and for pale ales for a camping trip. Haven't recultured coopers yeast in years due to the effort involved. A fresh vial is easy.
> 
> The one critical aspect when using the Coopers yeast is keeping it to 16C to get the pear esters only, any higher and it's all bananas.


Good tip! thanks for that one Doc.

Also don't use Windsor unless you want low attenuation. S-04 can be a little quitter too if you don't keep an eye on it.


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## Mikedub (29/4/13)

I'm fermenting with Danstar Windsor atm , from initial tastings I'd say its it the ball park of CPA as I'm getting plenty of pear, though perhaps leaning towards yeasty rather than CPA bready, as others have mentioned it this yeast finishes quite high,


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## QldKev (29/4/13)

I've used WL009 and it's close. I do prefer the CPA bottle yeast and think if you are after a CPA close it is worth the effort to re-culture. I experimented along with ekul a couple of years back and we found 16.5c to be the perfect temp for a CPA clone.

QldKev


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## Damien13 (30/4/13)

Not to flog a dead thread, but I just went through my brew journal from a few years ago, and one of the best Aussie pales I made was with T-58 dry yeast. I remember it being extremely close to coopers (was a st peteres wort pack). SG 1.040
What the hell?? Isn't T-58 a Belgian yeast?? Were my taste buds that crap 4 years ago?? I remember it not throwing the usual Belgian aromatics I am not a fan of. Anyone have much experience with this yeast? When I used the same yeast with a high grav (1.070) pumpkin beer it was banana city! Could it have been stress... hmmm


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## Tilt (30/4/13)

Big Nath said:


> WBO6 - Wheat beer yeast. I have a sachet of it, but never used it. Maybe experiment with different temps and it might throw a fruity flavour like i get in a lot of wheats...Dunno.


I used WB 06 a while ago as a back up yeast on a CSA when the recultured bottle dregs on my stirplate failed to fire.
Based on advice in the American forums I didn't oxygenate (dropped via a length of hose into the fermentor from the kettle, but no 5 minutes of shaking as I usually would) and fermented at 19-21 degrees rising over 4 days. 
It attenuated well to 1009 and cleared moderately with a cold crash - the beer wasn't crystal clear but it didn't have the luscious fine cloudiness of a true Coopers.
Esters/ phenols wise I got slight whiffs of banana, and no clove that I could pick up. No pear at all (not that I was expecting any).

Overall I thought WB06 was on OK dry substitute at a time when I needed it - and it gave some properties of Coopers yeast which I wouldn't have got with S05, Nottingham or Windsor. However it doesn't produce a Coopers clone - you'd need to go with the real thing for that.


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## Nick JD (30/4/13)

Whenever I call T58 "pretty average" Ross sets the dogs on me.

But it _is_ pretty average.


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## black_labb (30/4/13)

Coopers yeast is great, try it with different recipes to really get the most out of it. One of my regular brews is a 50% vienna 50% pale ale hopped to about 28ibu with about 20% of the IBU coming from cube hops using european or milder english hops. Keep to about 17* in the first 24 hours and let it rise gently after that. Styrian goldings was my best one.

I get quite dissapointed with Coopers pale when I drink it, there are better ways to make use of the yeast.


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## Nick JD (30/4/13)

black_labb said:


> I get quite dissapointed with Coopers pale when I drink it, there are better ways to make use of the yeast.


Same. I have struggled through a 6 pack in the past to get the yeast. It's just bottle conditioned Tooheys Draught with a slightly fruity yeast.

I sub out the PoR for Cascade - much better CPA. Made a couple of wicked OzIPAs with it too.


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## peas_and_corn (30/4/13)

Coopers is better kegged IMO, the bottled version is highly variable in quality, especially if it's been shipped interstate.


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## ben_sa (3/5/13)

CPA clone is a regular on tap at my place. Ive triednotto, 05, 04 as well as a few liquids. Next time im going to use bry97 as i have heard it is abit of a hop stripping yeast, but cpa isnt really a hop driven beer... Should be interesting


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## clarkey7 (5/5/13)

As you know Damien - I have made a few Aussie Ales with coopers yeast in my time.......I think you should invite your friend over and get him to pay for a six pack of fresh coopers. Sit it in your fridge very still for 2 days.

Show him how to do the starter and drink the beers together. Worth the effort.
I normally use 3 stubbies in 600ml-800ml 1035 wort in an Erlenmeyer flask ...(about 4-5 heaped TBS of DME in water)..Obviously boil the wort for 15mis, cool and pitch the 3 stubbies dregs and aerate like hell. Starter ready in 2-3 days.......nothing like the vigorous fermentation generated by a re-cultured Coopers yeast...

I usually drink the beers while making the starter....makes the chore more interesting.

Having said all that. I did a fair bit of experimenting a few years ago when BABBs had an Aussie Ale Mash Paddle comp.

The third best beer (first 2 were with CSA stubbies) I made was with Notto at 20-21 degrees. Very close to coopers ester profile in slightly more English Malt dominated grist (Maris Otter/Pale Malt, wheat, Med crystal)...also used Goldings and Fuggles instead of POR in the more traditional version....Some tasters would not believe that Notto could seem this close to Coopers.

Worth a go IMO if re-culturing is off the table.

The WLP009 didn't do it for me...but I only used it once......took awhile to get going and fermented a bit too clean from memory....

Hope this helps,

Dave


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