# Carlton Draught Grain Bill?



## iralosavic

I'm not a huge fan of Carlton Draught, but it is a beer I drink a lot (as it's on tap pretty much everywhere), so I'm familiar with its flavour profile, as I'm sure many of the more experienced AG brewers are too.

From what I get, it has a subtle, yet destinctive maltiness that lingers after the initial bitternerss, which I believe to be delivered from a modest dose of PoR. I'm curious as to what the grain bill would be for this beer, so that I can appreciate where it gets its qualities from and then apply this understanding to developing my own recipes.

I'm thinking it would be 80-90% ale malt, but that's about as far as I can take my guess.



Cheers,


----------



## Nick JD

You can get really close with 100% Barrett Burston Ale - if you use their Pale Malt a touch (<5%) of BB Caramalt gets you the same colour. Go for 1.045.

About 20 IBUs of PoR at the start of the boil. 34/70, or S189 at 12C --> 16C ... S23 if kept low and slow (<12C). 

Filter the hell out of it or gelatine and polyclar. Aussie lagers need to be bright.


----------



## iralosavic

Would 100% ale malt not be exceedingly malty? Or can you turn this around by mashing low? Speaking of which, would this be a single step infusion at around 64c? Would you add a protein rest? (I can't really do decoctions as I'm BIAB.)

Is the dryness achieved purely from the lagering process? I've seen people adding things like rice or torrified wheat for this purpose in other recipies (although I'd struggle to see CUB doing this).

I've got brewbite, which I can use late in the boil, but would I still need to add gelatin to get the brightness (if not filtering)?


----------



## bradsbrew

Use the BB Pale malt not the BB ale malt. 

edit. I often mash at between 61-63 when doing aussie lagers.


Cheers


----------



## sama

Surely sugar...?


----------



## bradsbrew

sama said:


> Surely sugar...?


15 % at least.


----------



## iralosavic

bradsbrew said:


> 15 % at least.



I thought you'd need something for the dryness. 15% seems a lot though. Would 85% malt still achieve that malty backbone present in CD?


----------



## mr_tyreman

Pretty sure 18IBU's is their target bitterness


----------



## Nick JD

iralosavic said:


> Would 100% ale malt not be exceedingly malty? Or can you turn this around by mashing low? Speaking of which, would this be a single step infusion at around 64c? Would you add a protein rest? (I can't really do decoctions as I'm BIAB.)
> 
> Is the dryness achieved purely from the lagering process? I've seen people adding things like rice or torrified wheat for this purpose in other recipies (although I'd struggle to see CUB doing this).
> 
> I've got brewbite, which I can use late in the boil, but would I still need to add gelatin to get the brightness (if not filtering)?



Carlton draught is actually (shock horror) a little bit malty for what it is. Compared to the competition, anyway.

<rant on>
To be honest - you can make* a better beer *than it. Just use 95% Aussie malt; 5% crystal; 20 IBUs of fresh PoR and a nice lager yeast COLD. Mash at 66C! Make it TASTE NICE. 
</rant off>


----------



## iralosavic

Nick JD said:


> Carlton draught is actually (shock horror) a little bit malty for what it is. Compared to the competition, anyway.
> 
> <rant on>
> To be honest - you can make* a better beer *than it. Just use 95% Aussie malt; 5% crystal; 20 IBUs of fresh PoR and a nice lager yeast COLD. Mash at 66C! Make it TASTE NICE.
> </rant off>



Hey Nick. I understand the reason behind your rant and I just want to remind you that I did start this thread stating that I'm not a huge fan. I just figured that by understanding the recipe behind a beer I'm familiar with, I could learn more and be able to start creating my own beers rather than relying on clones.

Thanks for your help, mate.


----------



## bung89

iralosavic said:


> Hey Nick. I understand the reason behind your rant and I just want to remind you that I did start this thread stating that I'm not a huge fan. I just figured that by understanding the recipe behind a beer I'm familiar with, I could learn more and be able to start creating my own beers rather than relying on clones.
> 
> Thanks for your help, mate.



When I saw this thread I was wondering why anybody would want to make this beer but after seeing your reasoning I'm actually thinking of looking up some beers I drink alot of (not because I like them but beacuse they have them everywhere) could be a good way to learn a bit about the different flavours of grains.
Cheers


----------



## iralosavic

bung89 said:


> When I saw this thread I was wondering why anybody would want to make this beer but after seeing your reasoning I'm actually thinking of looking up some beers I drink alot of (not because I like them but beacuse they have them everywhere) could be a good way to learn a bit about the different flavours of grains.
> Cheers



Yeah, mate. That's exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm certainly not going to <opinionated language>waste</opinionated language> my time actually reproducing a CD clone when I personally don't love it. The reason I got into brewing was mostly for the creative outlet (like cooking), where I can tailor make beers to my personal tastes in each style I enjoy.

If there's any beer where the brain will be able to piece the flavour puzzle together, it's probably going to be the one I've been drinking at pubs for a decade. If you saw my beer stores, you'd probably be surprised that I've even gone back for seconds of CD. (It's full of trappist dubbels, craft stouts and porters, witbeirs etc). This is just my way of taking the first step to learning.

Once I feel I appreciate how the (estimated) ingredients in CD can be attributed to the beer, I will piece together a modified variant that I feel will sit a lot better with my palate. Edit: rather than simply copy someone elses suggestion for a superior similar recipe, (which I'm sure would be excellent - no disrespect to the more educated brewers here intended!).


----------



## sama

Your dryness will be a result of your mash temp and yeasts attenuation.if i mash a 95 % pils malt beer at 63-64,with good mineral levels (i add calcium appropriately at mash and yeast nutrient at boil) and plenty of yeast (eg a 2litre cpa starter) ill get 1040ish down to 1006ish, so id be looking at gettin attenuation cranking for a quenching dry aussie beer.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

nick JD's recipe, because it is "all malt" will in fact be quite a lot maltier than CD - i agree however that its also probably going to be a tastier beer too. Aside from that, everything else he suggested will get you a pretty damn good facsimle of Carlton Draught.

BB Pale & about 15% sugar (but thats 15% of your extract, not 15% by weight) with a mid range mash temp will give you the dryness you need and also cut back the maltiness a bit so it more accurately reflects the original beer. It wont be the "same" - but it will be a similar and probably quite nice, australian pale lager.


----------



## mr_tyreman

CUB are happy to let it's customers know that they pile into their CD an extra burst of sulfur dioxide as a preservative, I can foward you their emails if u like


----------



## iralosavic

Thirsty Boy said:


> nick JD's recipe, because it is "all malt" will in fact be quite a lot maltier than CD - i agree however that its also probably going to be a tastier beer too. Aside from that, everything else he suggested will get you a pretty damn good facsimle of Carlton Draught.
> 
> BB Pale & about 15% sugar (but thats 15% of your extract, not 15% by weight) with a mid range mash temp will give you the dryness you need and also cut back the maltiness a bit so it more accurately reflects the original beer. It wont be the "same" - but it will be a similar and probably quite nice, australian pale lager.



Excuse my ignorance, but how do you calculate a percentage in that manner? I went to have a fiddle with Beersmith, but realised my trial period has expired, so I need to organise getting a key. Cheers


----------



## eamonnfoley

How do you reproduce the headache inducing part? Ferment at 17C with a lager yeast and get some lovely fusels going?


----------



## Rowy

iralosavic said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but how do you calculate a percentage in that manner? I went to have a fiddle with Beersmith, but realised my trial period has expired, so I need to organise getting a key. Cheers




Get brewmate its free.


----------



## DUANNE

mr_tyreman said:


> CUB are happy to let it's customers know that they pile into their CD an extra burst of sulfur dioxide as a preservative, I can foward you their emails if u like






foles said:


> How do you reproduce the headache inducing part? Ferment at 17C with a lager yeast and get some lovely fusels going?




i think that may be a big part of the answer right there.


----------



## suorama

How about this experiment?
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/blog...hp?showentry=15

Maybe right mash schedule gives some answers.


----------



## iralosavic

What would the taste result be if I met Nick JD half way?

ie 85% Pale Malt, 5% Light Crystal, 10% Sugar


----------



## bradsbrew

iralosavic said:


> What would the taste result be if I met Nick JD half way?
> 
> ie 85% Pale Malt, 5% Light Crystal, 10% Sugar



Get rid of the crystal. What mash temp? What yeast? What ferment temp? More to it than just the recipe.



Cheers


----------



## ged

I'd avoid crystal and go for:

89.6% pils
0.4% roast barley
10% sugar


----------



## iralosavic

bradsbrew said:


> Get rid of the crystal. What mash temp? What yeast? What ferment temp? More to it than just the recipe.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers



66c, s189, 12c.

I appreciate that crystal will take the recipe away from being a clone - just curious as to the effect from adding crystal (as per Nick's suggestion for a better tasting APA), while keeping some of the good old cheaparsed CUB style sugar.


----------



## iralosavic

ged said:


> I'd avoid crystal and go for:
> 
> 89.6% pils
> 0.4% roast barley
> 10% sugar



Interesting clone idea. The roasted barley would take the pils colour up and contribute to dryness without lowering the pils/sugar ratio. 10% sugar still seems low from what the rest of the fellas are saying though.


----------



## ged

10% sugar by weight / grain bill probably approximates 15% by extract
I've got a Braumeister so I do a stepped mash (52 for 20, 63 for 30-40, 72 for 20, mashout)
Previously I've done single infusion but would go down to 64.
BTW what the hell is wrong with wanting to clone an Aussie lager? There's a role for a crisp summer beer - they don't need to all taste like full bodied US APAs.


----------



## bradsbrew

iralosavic said:


> 66c, s189, 12c.
> 
> I appreciate that crystal will take the recipe away from being a clone - just curious as to the effect from adding crystal (as per Nick's suggestion for a better tasting APA), while keeping some of the good old cheaparsed CUB style sugar.



If you were making an APA the crystal would be fine but your making a lager? The crystal would give more sweetness. The adding of sugar and lower mash (IMO 66 is to high for style, 64 would suit me better) is more about lowering the body and increasing the percieved dryness. When I add sugar it has nothing to do with cost its more for body/style/beer.



Cheers


----------



## ged

ps you could drop the RB even further - this gives an EBC of around 11 which is at the upper end of a straw golden colour. You could halve it and get an EBC 8. That's 15g in a 45L batch or only 8g in a 23 L batch!


----------



## iralosavic

ged said:


> 10% sugar by weight / grain bill probably approximates 15% by extract
> I've got a Braumeister so I do a stepped mash (52 for 20, 63 for 30-40, 72 for 20, mashout)
> Previously I've done single infusion but would go down to 64.
> BTW what the hell is wrong with wanting to clone an Aussie lager? There's a role for a crisp summer beer - they don't need to all taste like full bodied US APAs.



I'm honestly not sure how to calculate the percentage by extract, as all I use is beersmith/brewmate, which seem to go by weight. Thanks for clearing up the 5% difference though.

I don't see why I couldn't do a stepped mash in my e-kettle BIAB setup, I'd just have to manually stir during the ramp ups. I'm definitely getting the feeling that a lower single infusion mash will achieve a closer end result. Yes, it will be light bodied, but that is the idea for this style.

Personally, I prefer my lagers with a bit more body and a more prevolent maltiness than CD, but that's not the purpose of this enquiry. Although, as Nick pointed out, Carlton Draught is a fair bit maltier than the other Aussie megaswills, so I don't feel overly embarrassed to actually enjoy it on tap from time to time. Understanding how such a beer is made will help me to come up with my own recipe to suit both myself and my guests; who, while less adventurous than me, still appreciate the difference between mass-produced Aussie lagers and a home brew made with deliberation.


----------



## stux

iralosavic said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but how do you calculate a percentage in that manner? I went to have a fiddle with Beersmith, but realised my trial period has expired, so I need to organise getting a key. Cheers



A good estimate is 80% of of your initial grain bill is available, then of younger 80% of that into your boiler

So for a 5KG Grain bill 4Kg of extract is available, if you get 80% efficiency into your kettle, that's 80% of 4KGs. Ie 3.2Kg

15% of 3.2KG is 480g

It depends on your efficienciny into kettle


----------



## Jazzafish

I have it on good authority (ex brewer) that they use only Pilsner malt and sugar. Percentages weren't discussed, but they perform a 3 step mash (protien, sacc,mashout) to high gravity. In the mash they also add enzymes to help the conversion along with calcium carbonate for hardness and pH. They dilute the high gravity wort into the fermenter and ferment much warmer than we could get away with (fermenter geometry of tall conicals help here). They also touch up post ferment with varied amounts of tetra hop bitterness extract/malt extract/sugar/De-oxygenated water/ethanol to achieve spec. All the usual preservative 220, PPPV and filtration etc... More laboratory brewing than craft brewing.

So cloning this beer is going to be a challenging exercise on a regular home brew rig. That said, making a beer like this on your home brew rig in a traditional non extract method is a great way to dial in your brewery and process. 

One challenge is attenuation. To clone this beer, I'd take a gravity reading of the real thing. This will give you your target final gravity. Take the alcohol percentage and you can figure out the target OG based on your yeasts attenuation. Hitting your final gravity will be rather important in this brew. I'd also suggest a target of 18IBU's using pride of ringwood at 60mins.

The other challenge is colour. The more sugar you add, the lighter the colour will be and I doubt you will get the same darkening on a home brew system. So the suggestion of a crystal malt makes sense in a colour point of view, but it will trhow the flavour out. If you can get sinimar extract to touch up in the fermenter then awesome. If not, try a longer and harder boil.

Keep us posted on how yo go


----------



## Thirsty Boy

mr_tyreman said:


> CUB are happy to let it's customers know that they pile into their CD an extra burst of sulfur dioxide as a preservative, I can foward you their emails if u like



really? - do send the emails, because as a matter of fact the dosage of sulphur in CUB beers is so low that it doesn't even have to be declared as an ingredient. read the side of the bottle - do you see it listed as an included preservative?

far, far, far, far less S02 in any australian beer, cub, megaswill or otherwise than there is in virtually any wine you care to name. there is metabisulphite added, but its a really quite surprisingly small amount, or you'd see it on the label.


----------



## levin_ae92

I'm pretty sure that most of the sulphur in cub beers comes from their yeast


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Jazzafish said:


> I have it on good authority (ex brewer) that they use only Pilsner malt and sugar. Percentages weren't discussed, but they perform a 3 step mash (protien, sacc,mashout) to high gravity. In the mash they also add enzymes to help the conversion along with calcium carbonate for hardness and pH. They dilute the high gravity wort into the fermenter and ferment much warmer than we could get away with (fermenter geometry of tall conicals help here). They also touch up post ferment with varied amounts of tetra hop bitterness extract/malt extract/sugar/De-oxygenated water/ethanol to achieve spec. All the usual preservative 220, PPPV and filtration etc... More laboratory brewing than craft brewing.
> 
> So cloning this beer is going to be a challenging exercise on a regular home brew rig. That said, making a beer like this on your home brew rig in a traditional non extract method is a great way to dial in your brewery and process.
> 
> One challenge is attenuation. To clone this beer, I'd take a gravity reading of the real thing. This will give you your target final gravity. Take the alcohol percentage and you can figure out the target OG based on your yeasts attenuation. Hitting your final gravity will be rather important in this brew. I'd also suggest a target of 18IBU's using pride of ringwood at 60mins.
> 
> The other challenge is colour. The more sugar you add, the lighter the colour will be and I doubt you will get the same darkening on a home brew system. So the suggestion of a crystal malt makes sense in a colour point of view, but it will trhow the flavour out. If you can get sinimar extract to touch up in the fermenter then awesome. If not, try a longer and harder boil.
> 
> Keep us posted on how yo go



your ex brewer is at least 50% full of it - i can say that with confidence given that yesterday I personally made approximately 1/2 a million liters of Carlton Draught, and completely failed to do a number of the things you mentioned. However quite a few of the things you say _are_ indeed spot on. High Gravity, trimming bittering, deoxygenated water etc etc

Pale lager malt from Barret Burston, not pilsner - lager malt. you will struggle to replicate CUB's malt because we have a proprietary blend. But BB pale malt will be pretty close.

Hop extract from the CUB brewery's own production plant. ISO from your HB shop will do the trick. 18-20 IBus will get you pretty close. No tetra at all, tetra is completely different and tastes different to normal isomerised extract.

A combination of Sugar Syrup and a high Maltose syrup is what we use - I personally just use table sugar when I try to brew an aussie lager.

No plant matter type hops in Carlton Draught at all, just pre-isomerised extract, and no crystal malt or RB, just brewers caramel. So for a home brewer the nearest thing would be sinmar from weyerman (as suggested) or possibly a very small amount of a very dark crystal. RB will give you a noticable nuttiness, even in amounts low enough to give you the small colour increase you need, and that would imho be worse than the slight flavour impact of a little dark crystal.

now, all that will bet you "closer" to CD - but you still wont get exactly there because you arent a big production brewery, and you haven't go the propriatery yeast etc etc - and if you cant nail it.... then you might as well go for better. Ai think your suggestion of meeting Nick JDs recipe halfway to the "suggested" sugar amount is a great one.

BB Pale malt, 5-10% by weight sugar, POR to 20ish IBUs, mash at 65, 34/70 or S189 fermented "high" by their standards. Good beer, with a similarity to Carlton Draught. The clearer and drier, the more like the riginal product it will be.

TB


----------



## Thirsty Boy

levin_ae92 said:


> I'm pretty sure that most of the sulphur in cub beers comes from their yeast



yes, thats correct.


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_

Thirsty Boy said:


> your ex brewer is at least 50% full of it - i can say that with confidence given that yesterday I personally made approximately 1/2 a million liters of Carlton Draught, and completely failed to do a number of the things you mentioned. However quite a few of the things you say _are_ indeed spot on. High Gravity, trimming bittering, deoxygenated water etc etc
> 
> Pale lager malt from Barret Burston, not pilsner - lager malt. you will struggle to replicate CUB's malt because we have a proprietary blend. But BB pale malt will be pretty close.
> 
> Hop extract from the CUB brewery's own production plant. ISO from your HB shop will do the trick. 18-20 IBus will get you pretty close. No tetra at all, tetra is completely different and tastes different to normal isomerised extract.
> 
> A combination of Sugar Syrup and a high Maltose syrup is what we use - I personally just use table sugar when I try to brew an aussie lager.
> 
> No plant matter type hops in Carlton Draught at all, just pre-isomerised extract, and no crystal malt or RB, just brewers caramel. So for a home brewer the nearest thing would be sinmar from weyerman (as suggested) or possibly a very small amount of a very dark crystal. RB will give you a noticable nuttiness, even in amounts low enough to give you the small colour increase you need, and that would imho be worse than the slight flavour impact of a little dark crystal.
> 
> now, all that will bet you "closer" to CD - but you still wont get exactly there because you arent a big production brewery, and you haven't go the propriatery yeast etc etc - and if you cant nail it.... then you might as well go for better. Ai think your suggestion of meeting Nick JDs recipe halfway to the "suggested" sugar amount is a great one.
> 
> BB Pale malt, 5-10% by weight sugar, POR to 20ish IBUs, mash at 65, 34/70 or S189 fermented "high" by their standards. Good beer, with a similarity to Carlton Draught. The clearer and drier, the more like the riginal product it will be.
> 
> TB



My god...... I take my hat off to you evil megaswill brewer / sir :lol: I thank you for giving everyone on here such a direct push in the right direction.
I too have been playing around with recipies that resemble close to the above (and other megaswill) but will be more inclined to jump in and try this approach now.

Thanks TB! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

happy to help, but its nothing you cant get from the tour guides if you take ther brewery tour - and combine that with what you know as an AG homebrewer.

I'd love to be able to tell you guys exactly whats in it and all the time, temp, spec details - but not as much as I love having a job, so i keep it to stuff that I know for sure CUB is happy to tell people. And besides, its a HB forum - people dont really want to exactly clone a mega beer, they'd just go buy it - they just want some clues on how to make something thats "like" a beer they find friendly and familiar.

Oh - OP, to calculate the extract I just use promash. Or you should be able to look at the extract potential of the grain in your software ingredients list. For instance Aus pale lager malt is about 79% extract. so for every kg of grain, you can potentially get 790g of extract - and if you get 75% efficiency out of your mash tun, then you get .75x790=593g of sugar in your kettle. Sugar on the other hand is 100% extract and you add it to your kettle at 100% efficiency. So if you made a beer and used 20% sugar by weight - that would actually equate to 200/593 x 100 = 34% of the extract

I'll let you reverse enigineer the maths to get you to the percentage you decide to use.


cheers and happy New Year

TB


----------



## MHB

Not a beer I personally have even a slight interest in brewing, but recognise and respect the skill that goes into being able to consistently produce beer on the scale that the mega brewers work on.

Scale and the effect of sheer size on the beer is one of the things home brewers often over look when they are trying to emulate a commercial beer, its imposable to make exactly the same beer even if you had the exact recipe and were given all the ingredients including the yeast and in this case hop extract.
Just to sight one example, think about the effect on yeast of brewing in a 60 meter tall fermenter, given the beer is over gravity so assume somewhere around 1.065 (could be higher up to the low 1.070s)
From p = Density X Head X g = 1.065 X 60 X 9.81 = 626 kPa acting on the yeast at the bottom of the tank, even if you took home fresh brewery wort and yeast the beer would be noticeably different.
In modern high speed commercial brewing the yeast pitch rates can be very high, much higher than a home brewer would consider reasonable (4 million cells per mL per point of Plato and above). Naturally the heat produced during fermentation requires immense cooling capacity in the case of CUB I believe its liquid Ammonia jackets on the fermenters

When trying to make a clone we have to look at the beer we want and often do some considerable working around rather than make an exact copy, that or buy a very large brewery.
Mark


----------



## Nick JD

Is the fermenting beer in the huge fermenters circulated? Or does convection manage to counter the pressure gradient?


----------



## Jazzafish

Thirsty Boy said:


> your ex brewer is at least 50% full of it - i can say that with confidence given that yesterday I personally made approximately 1/2 a million liters of Carlton Draught, and completely failed to do a number of the things you mentioned. However quite a few of the things you say _are_ indeed spot on. High Gravity, trimming bittering, deoxygenated water etc etc
> 
> Pale lager malt from Barret Burston, not pilsner - lager malt. you will struggle to replicate CUB's malt because we have a proprietary blend. But BB pale malt will be pretty close.
> 
> Hop extract from the CUB brewery's own production plant. ISO from your HB shop will do the trick. 18-20 IBus will get you pretty close. No tetra at all, tetra is completely different and tastes different to normal isomerised extract.
> 
> A combination of Sugar Syrup and a high Maltose syrup is what we use - I personally just use table sugar when I try to brew an aussie lager.
> 
> No plant matter type hops in Carlton Draught at all, just pre-isomerised extract, and no crystal malt or RB, just brewers caramel. So for a home brewer the nearest thing would be sinmar from weyerman (as suggested) or possibly a very small amount of a very dark crystal. RB will give you a noticable nuttiness, even in amounts low enough to give you the small colour increase you need, and that would imho be worse than the slight flavour impact of a little dark crystal.
> 
> now, all that will bet you "closer" to CD - but you still wont get exactly there because you arent a big production brewery, and you haven't go the propriatery yeast etc etc - and if you cant nail it.... then you might as well go for better. Ai think your suggestion of meeting Nick JDs recipe halfway to the "suggested" sugar amount is a great one.
> 
> BB Pale malt, 5-10% by weight sugar, POR to 20ish IBUs, mash at 65, 34/70 or S189 fermented "high" by their standards. Good beer, with a similarity to Carlton Draught. The clearer and drier, the more like the riginal product it will be.
> 
> TB



Thanks Thirsty Boy,

I think the error is more on my interpretation... I was recalling a conversation from around 5 years ago. Happy to stand corrected


----------



## bradsbrew

Thirsty I would have thought there would be a %age of wheat in there too? Or is the the malt an actual blend of different malts?



Cheers


----------



## iralosavic

Mmm good question. There is certainly 5-10% wheat in a lot of the Aussie lager recipes on the DB.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

no wheat


----------



## kirem

Thirsty Boy said:


> now, all that will bet you "closer" to CD - but you still wont get exactly there because you arent a big production brewery, and you haven't go the propriatery yeast etc etc - and if you cant nail it.... then you might as well go for better.



Hey TB, hope the new owners are treating you well. I jumped ship about 6 months ago when they took our beer away from us.

I recall some discussion that 2112 Californian lager at higher fermentation temperatures has similar characteristics to the CUB strain? Care to comment further?


----------



## HoppingMad

Curious on this one too. 

Rumour was that Fosters supplied Carlsberg with their yeast after their brewery got bombed around WW2. So their proprietary strain is just like that but modified. 
Closest Carlsberg strain is Wyeast 2124 Carlsberg. But rumours were that Wyeast 2042 Danish Lager fermented high got close - at least on VB clones anyhow.

It was mentioned on this forum many years back (fermenting Danish Lager high for CUB clones). Happy to be corrected as all hearsay.

Hopper.


----------



## Nick JD

I reckon WY2278 makes a perfect Aussie Lager yeast at 14C.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

i find that i get "carlton" notes out of 2124 if its fermented above its range. VB especially is really quite fruity, and so is 2124 (34/70 dried and I expect there is an equivalent whitelabs) when its fermented in pseudo ale mode.

I suspect that the cal common yeast is probably somewhere adjacent - retains lager like characteristics at higher temps, so its more or less what the CUB yeasts are.. lager yeasts that dont go completely off tap when pushed a bit higher and faster.

If I'm really looking for a CUB type clone, I'll use the 34/70 dried - but I certainly dont insist its the only or even the best option, just the one thats worked for me. Mind you - In general I would agree with Nick and just use a nice lager yeast at proper lager temps to make a nice Aussie lager, rather than trying to emulate a commercial beer. Fortunately for me Wyeast 2124 is my lager yeast of choice anyway.


----------



## MHB

Was mining the old posts for some information on Extra Dry and read a post by Randal the Enamel Animal, his comments on the effect of unhoped wort on the flavours produced by the yeast brought this thread back to mind. I realise that in Extra Dry with the use of Tetra if there is any cross contamination with hoped wort it will skunk in clear bottles; and that that isnt why CUB use Hop Extract. On my last visit some years back, the flow diagram showed the extract being added post lagering.
What if any impact would fermenting the wort unhoped have, if any? Not something I have investigated too deeply but be interesting to know how much it contributes to the mega brewers characteristic flavour.
MHB


----------



## bum

I am far from a scientific brewer so the following is all "gut feeling" (and I should warn you my guts have shit for brains) but fermentation strips hop character and, I've read it said, IBU. If the effect of this change can swing wildly with otherwise insignificant changes in fermentation between batches (supposition on my part) then it would greatly increase repeatability to add these characteristics afterwards - especially in a beer that is already light on for such character.

Again, basically just thinking aloud.


----------



## Nick JD

bum said:


> I am far from a scientific brewer so the following is all "gut feeling" (and I should warn you my guts have shit for brains) but fermentation strips hop character and, I've read it said, IBU. If the effect of this change can swing wildly with otherwise insignificant changes in fermentation between batches (supposition on my part) then it would greatly increase repeatability to add these characteristics afterwards - especially in a beer that is already light on for such character.
> 
> Again, basically just thinking aloud.



Makes good sense, bum. If I could get past the fact that bums thinking out loud = farts it would be even more reassuring.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

i think mhb is thinking more along the lines of what effect lack/presence of hops will have on the yeast, rather than visa versa.

but you guys are right to a certain extent anyway - the later in the orocess you can add anything and the more "pure" the addition, the more repeatable the process. and thats a part of it, but mainly its about efficiency. you throw hops in the kettle and you are lucky to get 30% utilization, then you lose some in the fermenter and more in the filter. You shove extract that gets 90+% utilization out of its hops into the bright beer stream on the other hand? now you're getting 90% of the alpha acids you paid for into your beer instead of less than 30% - and your plant doesn't have to be designed to cope with large amounts of hops, you dont have to pay for disposal of spent hops, you dont have to pay for storage of hops, your workers never go off on compo from lifting heavy bags of hop pellets, your re-pitched yeast is cleaner, your centrifuges have a lighter load..... blah blah etc etc

MHB - i dont think that it affects the fermentation performance in a deeply significant way. we use the same strains of yeast, under the same sorts of fermentation conditions, for the same sorts of results - with both hopped and unhopped worts. But its bound to have some sort of influence - if i remember i'll ask one of the yeast gurus at work and see what they say.

TB


----------



## bum

Thirsty Boy said:


> i think mhb is thinking more along the lines of what effect lack/presence of hops will have on the yeast, rather than visa versa.


Yeah, I saw that but, in my perpetually sleep deprived state of late, I didn't adequately explain that I suspected that there was no real effect or else they'd be there and went on to guess why I thought they weren't. Ended up being largely wrong but you get that on the big jobs.



Thirsty Boy said:


> but you guys are right to a certain extent anyway - the later in the orocess you can add anything and the more "pure" the addition, the more repeatable the process. and thats a part of it, but mainly its about efficiency. you throw hops in the kettle and you are lucky to get 30% utilization, then you lose some in the fermenter and more in the filter. You shove extract that gets 90+% utilization out of its hops into the bright beer stream on the other hand? now you're getting 90% of the alpha acids you paid for into your beer instead of less than 30% - and your plant doesn't have to be designed to cope with large amounts of hops, you dont have to pay for disposal of spent hops, you dont have to pay for storage of hops, your workers never go off on compo from lifting heavy bags of hop pellets, your re-pitched yeast is cleaner, your centrifuges have a lighter load..... blah blah etc etc


Yeah, that makes immediate sense. Kinda annoyed it didn't occur to me. Here I was thinking Tooheys actually cared about the product! Kinda embarrassing really.


----------



## thebigwilk

Bringing this old thread back to life its an interesting read. I have just filtered and kegged my version of an Aussie Carlton Draught ish style of mega swill. One of the biggest factors was the ferment temps and the yeast, I have tried a few different yeast at the normal lager temps they all seemed to be a bit bland and missing that brightness type flavour. this latest brew I used wyeast 2124 pitched at 15c let it raise to 17c and held there for a week then raised it to 19c for another week, taking sample tastings out of the fermenter the familiar Aussie flavour was definitely there. Now its kegged its far from a clone but its on the right track, even to the point of giving the missus a taste to which she said" its got that Carlton Draught sort of taste about it". The late hop addition could be a little less but its bloody tasty and im pretty happy with it.

Australian Premium Lager
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 27.0
Total Grain (kg): 5.430
Total Hops (g): 36.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.049 (°P): 12.1
Final Gravity (FG): 1.010 (°P): 2.6
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.07 %
Colour (SRM): 6.0 (EBC): 11.8
Bitterness (IBU): 25.7 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 76
Boil Time (Minutes): 90
Grain Bill
----------------
5.100 kg Pilsner (93.92%)
0.300 kg Dry Malt Extract - Light (5.52%) Used for the sarter
0.030 kg Roasted Barley (0.55%)
Hop Bill
----------------
18.0 g Pride of Ringwood Pellet (10% Alpha) @ 90 Minutes (First Wort) (0.7 g/L)
18.0 g Hallertau Mittlefrueh Pellet (6.3% Alpha) @ 13 Minutes (Boil) (0.7 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
7.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
3.0 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
2.5 g Lactic Acid @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
Mash Ph 5.47
Single step Infusion at 63°C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 17°C with Wyeast 2124 - Bohemian Lager


----------



## Bribie G

I've brewed a couple of Cascade Premium Lager attempts more or less along the lines suggested by Thirsty Boy, plus some information gleaned by a member from Cascade itself. It's in the Fosters Family nowadays so not unlike CD and very simlar to your recipe.

One suggestion from TB was to use Danish Lager yeast, pitch at 13 and finish after about 10 days at 19. Then drop to lagering temp over 10 days, finishing at -1 degrees.

The mash was interesting, he suggested a low mash at 63 for _two_ hours then a short mashout.

I used some sugar, unfortunately I lost all my BrewMate recipes when my computer died last month but I think it was around 15% of gravity. POR plus a Hersbrucker plug. The brew came second in the Pale lagers in the Nats.

How about a brew-off this year ? :beerbang:

The roasted barley is interesting, apparently that's what gives Reschs Draught its deeper colour. Also Aussie RB is not as black as the UK variety, as I found out when I used some Joe White RB in a stout. I remember TB mentioning RB used commercially as being "not as dark as the stuff we home brewers use", so I guess JW RB is made for the commercials for colour adjustment in some of their beers.

I may be misquoting TB as he's been off the forum for a couple of years now and my memory is getting foggy, but I always paid attention to the bits he eked out about what went on at CUB B)


----------



## thebigwilk

Hey Bribie G good to hear from someone who has put a bit of time and effort in to this beer style. I was wondering how you treated your brewing water? I have been trying to get the PH down low for this style, my personal opinion is this helps bring out a sort of brightness to the flavour if you now what I mean its a hard one to describe.


----------



## pat86

Bribie G said:


> ...
> 
> One suggestion from TB was to use Danish Lager yeast, pitch at 13 and finish after about 10 days at 19. Then drop to lagering temp over 10 days, finishing at -1 degrees.
> 
> The mash was interesting, he suggested a low mash at 63 for _two_ hours then a short mashout.
> ...


Hey Bribie, quick Q regarding the fermentation and lagering:

When you say "drop to lagering temp over 10 days..." do you mean a gradual reduction of say 2C per day until you go from 19 to -1C?

Why do you go all the way to -1C? What extra effect would this have, that the 9 days of lagering before hand wouldn't?

*When I CC ales to clear them up (usually 3-7 days and between 0 - 4C), would I see any benefit of going to -1C?

If that gradual temp reduction is what you are talking about, what is the main difference between doing those steps and just switching my STC straight from 19C to -1C?


----------



## Bribie G

For the water I add sulphates, apparently traditional for Aussie beers, mostly epsom salts and a bit of gypsum.

I may have got the lagering wrong, I was talking to a brewer at a micro a couple of weeks ago and he suggested not dropping immediately to -1 but to run it down a few degrees a day to about 4 degrees so that the yeast is still working very slowly to clean up the brew, then give it a week at -1. Next time I'll drop it like that and see if it comes out cleaner. I reckon if I drop it straight from 19 to -1 the yeast isn't going to do anything but die off.

Said brewer also said to pitch low and then raise the temperature, so in the case of an Aussie I'd pitch at below 10 and let it creep up to 13 over a couple of days and time my fermentation from then.

I believe that for ales, the likes of Murrays do theirs at -1 for a week or so to clear out the brew, drop all the polyphenols whatever. This doesn't freeze the beer as the alcohol acts as an anti freeze.


----------



## DUANNE

The slow drop is to prevent any off flavours. If you just jack the thermostat down to -1 it can shock the yeast and they will spit out some undesirable flavours.dropping it slowly avoids this and any remaining yeast in the beer gets a chance to keep on cleaning up after itself during the lagering process.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu

JWM do a specific choc malt for Tooheys Old that is not available to the general public. I know this because I know someone who lived in Tamworth and managed to get some from the JWM malthouse there.


----------



## manticle

No idea about mega brews and I'm not the most experienced lager brewer but the best ones I have done, I have pitched cold/cool, raised temp slowly for diacetyl rest and dropped temp slowly for lagering, then cc'ed cold for a length of time.


----------

