# No Rinse Sterilizer = Sodium Percarbonate, Napisan = Sodium Percarbona



## Drufazz

Hi All,

I've been trying a no rinse sterilizer lately and notice that it contains sodium percarbonate. I notice that napisan is sodium percarbonate 

Am i being misled with this no rinse sanitizer ?

Cheers,


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## Sammus

try not to get sterilize and sanitize mixed up. sanitization is killing most of the organisms aka disinfecting, sterilizing is completely 100% removing all living organisms and spores etc as well.

Sodium percarb (napisan, or cheaper and better is coles smart buy nappy cleaner) is a great soaker/cleaner. Its also apparently a disinfectant (after a long soak) - it's definitely not no rinse though, not in the form of nappy cleaner anyway...

do a search on sodium percabonate, many people on this forum seem to be obsessed with it.


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## Drufazz

Sammus said:


> try not to get sterilize and sanitize mixed up. sanitization is killing most of the organisms aka disinfecting, sterilizing is completely 100% removing all living organisms and spores etc as well.
> 
> Sodium percarb (napisan, or cheaper and better is coles smart buy nappy cleaner) is a great soaker/cleaner. Its also apparently a disinfectant (after a long soak) - it's definitely not no rinse though, not in the form of nappy cleaner anyway...
> 
> do a search on sodium percabonate, many people on this forum seem to be obsessed with it.



Yes i've been reading about it. This stuff is called "No Rinse Sterilizer" .. it says something about it breaking down to leave just oxygen and water. This is what it says on the packet:

Macs 
All Malt Brewing

"No Rinse"
Sterilizer

Effectively Sterilizes Everything You Use for Brewing

Contents: Oxygen Activated Mineral Crystals (Sodium Percarbonate)​
But if it just sodium percarbonate, how is it any different from napisan ?

Cheers,


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## goatherder

Drufazz said:


> But if it just sodium percarbonate, how is it any different from napisan ?



napisan has a bunch of other things in it - sodium carbonate (a common washing powder ingredient), surfactants to make it stick to clothes, stuff to protect your washing machine parts, stuff to make it smell nice. Sodium percarbonate is usually only 20-40% of the ingredients list in napisan.

Pure sodium percarbonate breaks down to hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. The peroxide is good - it does the sanitising and breaks down to oxygen and water. The residual sodium carbonate - the washing powder stuff - is the reason you really need to rinse out after using it.

As Sammus said, there are two parts to brewery cleaning:

1 - cleaning - use a percarbonate based cleaner, napisan is good, avoid the scented products. Rinse afterwards.
2 - sanitising - use a no-rinse sanitiser, like iodophor, or a peroxide based one like Brewshield or Sanitize. Spray these on with a spray bottle and you don't need to rinse.

There are other options but these are tried and tested by a lot of brewers. They don't cost a lot, they are relatively safe to use and they work.


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## Drufazz

goatherder said:


> Pure sodium percarbonate breaks down to hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. The peroxide is good - it does the sanitising and breaks down to oxygen and water. The residual sodium carbonate - the washing powder stuff - is the reason you really need to rinse out after using it.


But it says "no rinse" ... this is false advertising 


goatherder said:


> 2 - sanitising - use a no-rinse sanitiser, like iodophor, or a peroxide based one like Brewshield or Sanitize. Spray these on with a spray bottle and you don't need to rinse.


I really want to use a no rinse solution and our LHBS only has that kind. Anyone recommend a good online HBS ?

Cheers,


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## Stuster

Craftbrewer (the sponsor to the left at the top of the page  ) is excellent. I'm sure he has some no-rinse stuff. (In fact after a search of his site he does, here.)
No affiliation yada yada yada.

Personally, I use iodophor and there may be another LHBS around that has that. (Are there any dairy/rural suppliers nearby. They may have that or something similar.)


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## colinm_au

Stuster said:


> Craftbrewer (the sponsor to the left at the top of the page  ) is excellent. I'm sure he has some no-rinse stuff. (In fact after a search of his site he does, here.)
> No affiliation yada yada yada.
> 
> Personally, I use iodophor and there may be another LHBS around that has that. (Are there any dairy/rural suppliers nearby. They may have that or something similar.)




Why not use Hydrogen Peroxide !!! This breaks down into water and oxygen ...


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## Ducatiboy stu

Sodium Percarbonate can be used as a non-rinse sanitizer. The reason it can be classed as non-rinse is because it is non toxic and wont add any flavours and wont affect your beer.

The reason that napi-san contains sodium carbonate is to act as a detergent/surfactant to allow the percarbonate to do a better job.

If you added sodium carbonate to hydrogen peroxide, you would basically have a liquid nappi-san.

Hydrogen Peroxide is a non-rinse as it totally breaks down to water and oxygen.


You can either rinse your napi-san or not rinse it. The choice is yours. Your beer will be ok if you dont. I dont rinse after napi-san because I dont see the point.

Sodium carbonate
Sodium Percarbonate
Hydrogen Peroxide


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## pint of lager

Like Sammus said, make sure you understand the difference between a cleaner and a no rinse sanitiser.

A no rinse sanitiser must be used at the correct concentration on an already clean surface.

Many people on this board use napisan as a cleaner. This is at the rate of about 1/3 a cup to a fermenter full of water. At this rate, it needs a lot of rinsing to remove the napisan aroma. Sometimes a kettle of boiling water after thorough rinsing removes the final napisan aroma. Then the equipment is allowed to dry, then stored till the next brew day and is rinsed with a no rinse sanitiser before use.

Some brewkits do have sodium percarbonate (not Napisan) as a no rinse sanitiser. Follow the instructions to the letter.


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## pokolbinguy

Where is iodophor available to purchase?

Pok


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## razz

LHBS, website sponsors.


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## brendanos

I use Sodium Percarbonate to clean/soak/sanitise all of my brewing equipment, rinse well, then sterilise with Iodophor.

I have been interested in switching to another no rinse steriliser product, as Stu mentioned, one used by the dairy industry, called Defender. It is a low foam acid based steriliser, very similar to the american product Star San, which is endorsed by american homebrewers and mentioned in texts (ie how to brew) as a colourless odourless no rinse sanitiser. Very low contact time (some sources say 30 seconds) which is great for the impatient homebrewer. From my investigations it will cost you about half as much as Star San, though dilution is recommended at about twice the rate. I guess it depends on where you're buying it from/whose instructions you're reading.


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## Ducatiboy stu

One of the problems with Napi-San is that not all Napi-Sans are the same . Some are scented, some contain Enzymes.

You dont want either of these types.

"No affiliation whatsoeve or biased opinion"

The best ones I have found are Woolies "Home Brand" and Aldi "Di-san"

Di-San is by far the cheapest and contains no stuff in it that is not required

A local cleaning manufacturer also supplies a napi-cleaner that is pure 70% sodium carbonate & 30% sodium percarbonate. Unfortunatly it is $10kg...


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## kook

Ducatiboy stu said:


> One of the problems with Napi-San is that not all Napi-Sans are the same . Some are scented, some contain Enzymes.
> 
> The best ones I have found are Woolies "Home Brand" and Aldi "Di-san"
> 
> Di-San is by far the cheapest and contains no stuff in it that is not required



Are you confident that these products really don't contain anything other than sodium percarbonate & sodium carbonate?

I was always under the impression there were additional fillers, and it was questionable as to whether these are food safe, and whether they may influence the finished beer.

Personally, I ensure to rinse any supermarket percarbonate based cleaners very well as I'm not confident in the fact that these are purely sodium percarbonate / sodium carbonate.


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## Guest Lurker

Why is everyone so against scented napisan? If you are rinsing the stuff out, then its easier to know when you have completely rinsed the scented stuff than the non scented.


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## Sammus

I'm not against it! I scored a 25kg bag if pure sodium percarb for $60 though so I dont have to worry about it - i still rinse anyway, I don't like the soapy slippery feeling left behind, it freaks me out


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## goatherder

Guest Lurker said:


> Why is everyone so against scented napisan? If you are rinsing the stuff out, then its easier to know when you have completely rinsed the scented stuff than the non scented.



I once soaked a plastic fermenter in a scented napisan product to remove a stubborn yeast ring. The plastic absorbed the smell and tainted a robust porter. Bleach, leaving in the sun etc didn't remove the smell from the fermenter. Once bitten I suppose, I only use unscented products now. For what it's worth, the product I use is Napisan Babycare. It's a little expensive but it's the only unscented product I can find locally.


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## Barramundi

for stubborn stains i use caustic soda , about 40 grams of powder to a 30 litre fermenter filled to the brim , brings it up like brand new again....


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## Ducatiboy stu

kook said:


> Are you confident that these products really don't contain anything other than sodium percarbonate & sodium carbonate?
> 
> I was always under the impression there were additional fillers, and it was questionable as to whether these are food safe, and whether they may influence the finished beer.
> 
> Personally, I ensure to rinse any supermarket percarbonate based cleaners very well as I'm not confident in the fact that these are purely sodium percarbonate / sodium carbonate.




Get hold of an MSDS ( Material Safety data Sheet ). It will tell you exactly what is in it.It has to by law


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## kook

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Get hold of an MSDS ( Material Safety data Sheet ). It will tell you exactly what is in it.It has to by law



Thats just confirmed my thoughts.

Napisan BabyCare:

Sodium Percarbonate 25.7 %
Sodium Silicate < 10 %
Anionic Surfactant < 10%
Sodium Carbonate 30-60%
"Other Ingredients classified as non-hazardous" to 100%

Nothing seems terribly bad if you're rinsing, but I'm not sure that you really want it left in your beer.


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## DarrenTheDrunk

Barramundi said:


> for stubborn stains i use caustic soda , about 40 grams of powder to a 30 litre fermenter filled to the brim , brings it up like brand new again....


I have plenty of this. Is it good to clean everything including bottles. I would like to try and avoid having to scrub bottles if I can as I brew a fair amount at a time. Also, I simply fill my fermenter to the absolute top with water, leave to soak outside over night or for a few hours and it comes up a treat. BUT..I am still very new at this game


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## Killer Brew

Caustic is a great cleaner for any organic residue, so yes. Just ensure you rinse thoroughly and personally I would still use a no-rinse sanitiser afterwards.

With bottles my routine is to make sure I triple rinse as soon as I pour the last glass. Then drain and store top down until needed. Then just a squirt of no-rinse sanitiser shortly before filling.


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## PhilipB

I can't bear to think of using a product such as Napisan... 

I use Starsan 1.6ml in a litre of water to sanitize. My 1 litre bottle will last a long time.


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## yankinoz

pokolbinguy said:


> Where is iodophor available to purchase?
> 
> Pok


Besides HB suppliers, chemists. They call it by the brand name Betadine and sell it quite cheaply in bottles of 200 ml or more. The concentration is slightly different from what is sold in HB shops.

Iodophor is very effective. I have seen it used to sterilize medical implements under field conditions, but in brewing sanitizing is a more realistic goal. No-rinse? Mostly yes (Betadine is used in mouthwashes) except some people claim they have low taste thresholds for it and pick up a taste. I only detected a taste after I forgot to drain a fermenter before filling with wort. The taste was slight and went away during conditioning.

The problem with iodophor sanitisers is stability. Once diluted they degrade quickly under bright light and slowly in the dark. Chlorine reacts with it, and so does dissolved organic matter (which varies greatly among water supplies, but is fairly high where I live).

I use Betadine with carbon-filtered water and use the desired amber colour as a guide -- do an image search. Or I use a Kiwi-made no-rinse phosphoric acid sanitiser. The choice depends on circumstances, but I always use phosphoric at bottling.


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## sp0rk

yankinoz said:


> Besides HB suppliers, chemists. They call it by the brand name Betadine and sell it quite cheaply in bottles of 200 ml or more. The concentration is slightly different from what is sold in HB shops.


I don't think Pok has been around in a while (also he's a professional brewer/winemaker now)
I really should bug him for a job some time...


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## Jaded and Bitter

Gee necro thread...



Killer Brew said:


> With bottles my routine is to make sure I triple rinse as soon as I pour the last glass. Then drain and store top down until needed. Then just a squirt of no-rinse sanitiser shortly before filling.


This used to work for me when I lived in Adelaide. After moving to the East Coast I kept getting wild yeast and bottle bombs. The wild yeast/bacteria whatever left a very small biofilm around the neck of the bottles, usually not visible through the brown bottles.

Cleaning and sterilising all the bottles with sodium hypochlorite domestic bleach and bottling in a clean kitchen cured the problem.

I think the reason why my more lax method worked in SA was because the dry air wasn't full of critters like it is here.


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## Jaded and Bitter

PhilipB said:


> I can't bear to think of using a product such as Napisan...
> 
> I use Starsan 1.6ml in a litre of water to sanitize. My 1 litre bottle will last a long time.


Your using the Starsan _after_ you have cleaned right?

PhilipB I'm sure you actaully are. But for any newbs reading this its worth restating.

Many experienced brewers clean first with sodium percarbonate or generic napisan. This makes sure everything is actually clean.

Then a no rinse such as Starsan is used before brewing once the surface is completely clean.

By completely clean I don't mean hosed out and scrubbed with the old dish sponge, then swished out with some hot water so it looks clean by the outdoor light by your back door at 9pm at night after three or four pints, I mean after a good soak and scrub with a cleaner which dissolves all organic residues, beer stone etc.

If the surface isn't completely clean Starsan wont save you.


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## MHB

yankinoz said:


> Besides HB suppliers, chemists. They call it by the brand name Betadine and sell it quite cheaply in bottles of 200 ml or more. The concentration is slightly different from what is sold in HB shops.
> 
> Iodophor is very effective. I have seen it used to sterilize medical implements under field conditions, but in brewing sanitizing is a more realistic goal. No-rinse? Mostly yes (Betadine is used in mouthwashes) except some people claim they have low taste thresholds for it and pick up a taste. I only detected a taste after I forgot to drain a fermenter before filling with wort. The taste was slight and went away during conditioning.
> 
> The problem with iodophor sanitisers is stability. Once diluted they degrade quickly under bright light and slowly in the dark. Chlorine reacts with it, and so does dissolved organic matter (which varies greatly among water supplies, but is fairly high where I live).
> 
> I use Betadine with carbon-filtered water and use the desired amber colour as a guide -- do an image search. Or I use a Kiwi-made no-rinse phosphoric acid sanitiser. The choice depends on circumstances, but I always use phosphoric at bottling.


There is a big difference between Betadine and Iodophor, (clue in the name) its the Phosphoric acid, not something recommended for applying to the skin or gargling, but very good for brewing.
We all know about Acid Sanitisers, the acid will also remove beer stone and some biofilms and the Iodine is a very effective steriliser.
Mark


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## Bribie G

Getting back to basics, Sodium Percarbonate is simpy Washing soda with an extra oxygen atom attached.
When it comes into contact with organic material - especially microorganisms - it uses the oxygen to zap it.
It froths mightily. Every bubble is a bug being zapped. 

It will bring a stained fermenter, an old fashioned cloth nappy or a pair of white volleys back to pristine overnight.

THEN
you sanitise with something like Starsan,

AFTER
you have washed out the washing soda residue that tastes pretty bad.


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## drsmurto

Oxygen can't react with organic molecules. It's spin forbidden.


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## Jaded and Bitter

Bribie G said:


> Getting back to basics, Sodium Percarbonate is simpy Washing soda with an extra oxygen atom attached.
> When it comes into contact with organic material - especially microorganisms - it uses the oxygen to zap it.
> It froths mightily. Every bubble is a bug being zapped.
> 
> It will bring a stained fermenter, an old fashioned cloth nappy or a pair of white volleys back to pristine overnight.
> 
> THEN
> you sanitise with something like Starsan,
> 
> AFTER
> you have washed out the washing soda residue that tastes pretty bad.


Further to Bribie G's excellent advice I absolutely recommend soaking a plastic fermenter filled with water (to the brim) and your choice of sodium percarbonate *after every brew!*

Not just when it starts to look nasty after several brews.

While your at it pull out the lids rubber seal and chuck that in and screw the lid on so the bottom gets a soak too.

When your done soaking get a scourer sponge and clean the outside of the fermenter and lid with the solution. Drain the solution but keep some in the bottom of the fermenter, pull the tap (pull it apart if possible or if not turn it to open) take off the rubber seal and chuck them in the solution, then clean around the tap thread with the solution.

Then rinse it all off with tap water.

And as Bribie said then use Starsan (or Iodophor).

The above is the minimum level I will go to when cleaning and sanitising a plastic fermenter.

I rest my case -_-


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## Jaded and Bitter

DrSmurto said:


> Oxygen can't react with organic molecules. It's spin forbidden.


Its the bitey type of oxygen


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## Ducatiboy stu

PhilipB said:


> I can't bear to think of using a product such as Napisan...
> 
> I use Starsan 1.6ml in a litre of water to sanitize. My 1 litre bottle will last a long time.


Why.... Napisan is an awsome cleaner, and it also santises as well

Your doing it wrong if you just rely on Star-San ( as so many do )


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## rhino86

Wouldn't a steam nozzle take off the ring and santisize most of the fermenter in seconds, i wonder and will experiment. Then risne with water, then swirl at least three percent hydrogen peroixde, then dry.
Look up food grade 35 per cent hydrogen peroixde on ebay. Should be around $30.


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## Jaded and Bitter

rhino86 said:


> Wouldn't a steam nozzle take off the ring and santisize most of the fermenter in seconds, i wonder and will experiment. Then risne with water, then swirl at least three percent hydrogen peroixde, then dry.
> Look up food grade 35 per cent hydrogen peroixde on ebay. Should be around $30.


Steam and 35% hydrogen peroxide sounds like a dangerous way to just avoid using sodium percarbonate.

Your 3% hydrogen peroxide sounds like an alternative to Starsan, Iodophur etc.

I imagine the amount of steam required to give the same results as sodium percarbonate would be pretty intense and maybe melt a plastic fermenter.

Or are you talking about one of those TV domestic steamer cleaner thingies? They look like they put out a weak wet steam. I wouldn't trust it for the level of hygiene I aim for (and you should too).

When cleaning your fermenter your not just trying to remove the yeast kreusen ring, you need to clean the entire fermenter.

Filling with water and adding some sodium percarbonate and leaving it to soak is such an easy way to achieve this I cannot work out why so many newbs are seemingly so stubborn to avoid it.

It really is home brewing 101.

So if your reading this and havn't already tried next time your at Coles/Woolies/IGA/Aldi whatever do yourself a huge favour and pick up a container of no name generic napisan for like $2.

After your next/latest rinse out the yeast cake and brew fill your fermenter with water and a couple cap fulls of the stuff. Hell chuck in your hoses and anything else which which will fit in (except your dirty washing and dishes). Clean the lid, seal, tap, outside fermenter too with the solution (inc. around the tap). Most brewers leave overnight but a few hours will probably do. Rinse with tap water and your done, clean as a whistle.

If I want to use it again straight away I'll use sodium hyperchlorite instead (domestic cleaner) to get faster results.

Next brew day hit it with Starsan or Iodophur and your good to go.


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## drsmurto

Sodium percarbonate produces hydrogen peroxide. Not sure why buying hydrogen peroxide is bad given the cleaning/sanitation is the same. 

I personally prefer a 2:1 mix of sodium percarbonate:sodium metalsilicate for cleaning and a no rinse sanitiser like starsan for sanitising.

The cleaning mix cost $8.07 for 5kg in a recent bulk buy i organised so a smegload cheaper than even homebrand napisan and this is pure.


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## Mr B

Anyone know how long percarbonate/meta mix cleans for? I.e if you have a tub of it with bottles etc in it?

I assume that it may degrade according to the organics it reacts with, and also must have a stability period where it ceases to be effective.

I soak bottles for weeks in a tub (put them in as I go), and it eventually gets green algae growing (but I do them again in a clean solution - well, I have, but I'm just about over bottling the leftover few l in a batch).


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## barls

id say 20 minutes tops. its a one short reaction. what your left with its a mild base from memory but i can't remember which one.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

That's a real "piece of string" question; It's dependent on concentration and the presence of organic soils and other factors.

The percarbonate breaks down very quickly to peroxide and carbonate (that's how it works). Peroxide solutions in alkaline conditions* are unstable and the stability depends on concentration. If you use a solution around 1% percarbonate, that yields around 0.3% peroxide which is conveniently close to 0.1M.

As near as I can workout, at that concentration the degradation rate is around 0.2 / hour at 15 oC in the absence of catalysts eg you'd lose around 20% activity in an hour.

In the presence of catalysts all bets are off: most organisms contain an enzyme called catalase which vastly increases the degradation rate (this includes humans: put a bit of peroxide or percarbonate solution on a drop of blood and watch what happens).

The easy answer is to watch for the bubbles caused by the degradation of the peroxide: if it isn't bubbling it isn't working, that's good enough for government work.


* The breakdown of the percarbonate produces a carbonate solution with a pH around 10 -11, hence alkaline conditions.


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## drsmurto

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> That's a real "piece of string" question; It's dependent on concentration and the presence of organic soils and other factors.
> 
> The percarbonate breaks down very quickly to peroxide and carbonate (that's how it works). Peroxide solutions in alkaline conditions* are unstable and the stability depends on concentration. If you use a solution around 1% percarbonate, that yields around 0.3% peroxide which is conveniently close to 0.1M.
> 
> As near as I can workout, at that concentration the degradation rate is around 0.2 / hour at 15 oC in the absence of catalysts eg you'd lose around 20% activity in an hour.
> 
> In the presence of catalysts all bets are off: most organisms contain an enzyme called catalase which vastly increases the degradation rate (this includes humans: put a bit of peroxide or percarbonate solution on a drop of blood and watch what happens).
> 
> The easy answer is to watch for the bubbles caused by the degradation of the peroxide: if it isn't bubbling it isn't working, that's good enough for government work.
> 
> 
> * The breakdown of the percarbonate produces a carbonate solution with a pH around 10 -11, hence alkaline conditions.


Another thing to think of is the iron (and copper) content that powers the Fenton Reaction.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Taken as included under "other factors" above.

As I understand it there's still a fair bit we don't know about peroxide chemistry (including how Fenton's reaction actually works).


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## Mr B

Thanks all, the thoughts on detail fit with my gut feeling


Cheers!


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## Jaded and Bitter

DrSmurto said:


> Sodium percarbonate produces hydrogen peroxide. Not sure why buying hydrogen peroxide is bad given the cleaning/sanitation is the same.
> 
> I personally prefer a 2:1 mix of sodium percarbonate:sodium metalsilicate for cleaning and a no rinse sanitiser like starsan for sanitising.
> 
> The cleaning mix cost $8.07 for 5kg in a recent bulk buy i organised so a smegload cheaper than even homebrand napisan and this is pure.


Just trying to keep it simple for the newbs. Not trying to get over technical or recommend specific relatively hard to obtain products.

Concentrated hydrogen peroxide isn't the safest thing to keep around the house and try and blend, that's why.

Pure sodium percarbonate, sodium metalsilicate blends, food grade concentrated hydrogen peroxide are harder to source than say generic napisan, and if your already sourcing these products your not the target audience (target audience being people wanting/needing to improve their brew hygiene).

I dont use napisan, I use pure sodium percarbonate for ~$10 per 5 kg and Starsan, but used cheap brand napisan for years.


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## Ducatiboy stu

At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with Nappi-San. It works. Full stop


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## Bribie G

Unless you buy a 20kg sack it's hard to source pure Perc if you, like Stu and I, live in a regional area. 
I've lucked out on a bulk deal in SEQ recently but for years my perc supply was precarious. 

Given the small quantities needed for regular fermenter cleaning, using oxynappysan varieties won't break the bank. 

Note that manufacturers are dropping any references to nappies in their brands as today's breeders prefer to pack landfills for 300 years.


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## stevonz

Bribie G said:


> I've lucked out on a bulk deal in SEQ recently but for years my perc supply was precarious.



I lucked in... and the 25KG sack is going to last ages. I have transferred to a pail with lid, and if you need any lemme know. Its gonna take years to work through that lot. I'm in Wakerley on the Bayside.


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## Jaded and Bitter

Ducatiboy stu said:


> At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with Nappi-San. It works. Full stop


And you can use it to get whiter whites...


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## Ducatiboy stu

Jaded and Bitter said:


> And you can use it to get whiter whites...


Good for Wit's


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## 2blokes

stevonz said:


> I lucked in... and the 25KG sack is going to last ages. I have transferred to a pail with lid, and if you need any lemme know. Its gonna take years to work through that lot. I'm in Wakerley on the Bayside.


Can any of you using pure sodium percarbonate advise me what ratio you use it in? I was given some recently and wanted to start using it up.

Cheers


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## wide eyed and legless

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/44042-how-much-sodium-percarbonate-do-you-use/


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## 2blokes

wide eyed and legless said:


> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/44042-how-much-sodium-percarbonate-do-you-use/


Thanks for the reply, I have seen that thread but unless I missed something it is also inconclusive. Some people using only 1-2 teaspoons per 30L some using more.

Keg Kings website they say to use 30g per 9-10L so I am confused as to what to use.


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## Coldspace

Is there a use by date on the pure percarb.?

My 25 kg sack I got in last years bulk buy has a manufactures date and also a use by date of April 2017.still got 17 odd kgs left.

I keep it in a sealed drum, it's still working great and I only take out a kg at a time .

Do you just keep using it for a couple of years? Or will it eventually not work.

Cheers


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## Rocker1986

Eventually it loses its effectiveness, I think the humidity in the air slowly breaks it down over time. I bought a 25kg sack a couple of years ago and went past its best before by a fair way and it was still ok, but I don't skimp on the stuff either. It's not really that expensive at under $4 per kg. I have a small amount of that sack in a mason jar in the kitchen for soaking small items and it definitely doesn't bubble up as vigorously as it used to, but it still cleans shit off perfectly well.

I'll be grabbing another 25kg on Thursday. As for the rate of use, I really have no idea. I fill my FV up and dump in 7 scoops, whatever that amounts to, probably somewhere around 150g.


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## Jack of all biers

2blokes said:


> Thanks for the reply, I have seen that thread but unless I missed something it is also inconclusive. Some people using only 1-2 teaspoons per 30L some using more.
> 
> Keg Kings website they say to use 30g per 9-10L so I am confused as to what to use.


The label on my LHBS Sodium Percarbonate states to use at 10gm/L, but I find you can get away with a tenth of this, but sometimes 10gm/L is what is required. It really depends on how much gunk is in the vessel that needs cleaning. Mostly the 2-4 gm/L (similar to Keg Kings advise) works for me.


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## wide eyed and legless

2blokes said:


> Thanks for the reply, I have seen that thread but unless I missed something it is also inconclusive. Some people using only 1-2 teaspoons per 30L some using more.
> 
> Keg Kings website they say to use 30g per 9-10L so I am confused as to what to use.


The reason you are confused is because it does come in different purities from around 30 % upwards, for instance if you had bought 50%pure sodium percarbonate you would have to use twice as much as someone who had bought 100% pure, as has been mentioned above it also depends what you are going to be using it for. For getting labels off bottles I would use half a cupful in 30 litres of water at around 50 or 60 degrees C, don't go hotter than that, also for keeping it, it is best stored in a dark bin and keep it under 40 degrees C and keep it dry even though it is not photodegradable I do believe the hydrogen peroxide is. If you haven't bought yours yet the chemist I was recently speaking to advised me to get the sodium perborate as it is more stable but not as environmentally safe it breaks down into boron though water treatment plants may be able to take care of this your garden will not,


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## Coodgee

I've used napisan on my fermenters exclusively. They are as clean and white as the day I bought them and the inside surface has never been scrubbed.


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## Coldspace

Yeah I'll keep using it. It's just on a year old, still works great. I do just get a kg at a time and try and keep the sack sealed in a bin.

I've been using it strong as when you got a full sack for 50 bucks might as well go hard....


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## Jack of all biers

wide eyed and legless said:


> The reason you are confused is because it does come in different purities from around 30 % upwards, for instance if you had bought 50%pure sodium percarbonate you would have to use twice as much as someone who had bought 100% pure, as has been mentioned above it also depends what you are going to be using it for.


WEAL, his original question, which you answered directly after was about pure sodium percarbonate. 100% is pure in anyones language.


2blokes said:


> Can any of you using pure sodium percarbonate advise me what ratio you use it in? I was given some recently and wanted to start using it up.
> 
> Cheers


I would dare say the confusion lies more in the various opinions out there, which rightly so are based on level of gunk or type of gunk being removed. Really thick caked on gunk 10gm/L no doubt. Only lightly dirty, then 2-4gm/L or even less if pretty much clean before treatment. At the end of the day, if you want to save using more Sodium Percarbonate then give your fermenter a squirt out with a garden hose nozzle to remove the thick gunk then fill and use lower doses.


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## wide eyed and legless

Jack of all biers said:


> WEAL, his original question, which you answered directly after was about pure sodium percarbonate. 100% is pure in anyones language.


Unlikely as it may seem there is a difference in 100% pure sodium percarbonate and pure sodium percarbonate, probably just sales speel, that's why you will notice on eBay 100% pure, or in some cases pure, Oxy clean is classed as a pure but is made up of s/p and filler same with oxy bleach, when I got prices recently the oxy bleach was cheaper for that reason, and Napisan has a content of about 30% s/p just as an interest for those who use it.
Also if it is repackaged and being sold on eBay as 100% pure I would be giving it a miss.


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## trustyrusty

Hi just went into Coles... looks like they have dropped a lot the Home brand styling but Coles laundry booster.. About 30% sodium p. Is that the same stuff .. think is similar to napisan...


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## rude

30 grams per 9-10 L with warm water let it soak then rinse
30 grams per 3 L for keg line cleaning let it soak then rinse or give the
mother in law the first glass
100% sodium percarbonate


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