# Boiling versus boiled hot water at mixing stage



## trustyrusty (4/8/15)

Hi,

I was watching a few videos and some home brewer with kits boil the fermentables before adding extract, and I think one of the boiled the extract (all I could be wrong) but would this have an effect on the outcome? I normally add boiled water and then mix.

and if you boiled the extract would that effect the outcome?

cheers


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## Brewsta (5/8/15)

my personal opinion is don't boil anything…i think you will find that this is already done at the factory to rid any bacteria & to add hop additions for the kits. The fermentables i would imagine have already been through this process & hot air dried.

Boiling them again i feel is unnecessary, makes the brew darker & gives it more twang. I know John Palmers "How to Brew" book says to do this, i've tried it a few times and never bothered to do it again. The only thing i boil is the wort from my steeped grains once again to rid any nasties & if i want some hop additions i add to this. It may not be the correct brewing method & others may explain why but it always produces good beer for me. 

My old man has been brewing since Noah played fullback for Jerusalem and i remember as a kid him doing the same thing, everything went in to a big pot and was boiled. He doesn't do that anymore & hasn't done so for ages, he only uses enough boiled water from the kettle to make it easier to mix but not so much that it ends up over the pitch temp of the yeast. Maybe it's just an old technique that's outdated??? or maybe its used for different styles??? Maybe it was just all extract & they were adding their own hops to to create their own recipe??

The only brew i have ever turfed has been one that i boiled everything, just couldn't drink it.


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## TheWiggman (5/8/15)

Trustyrusty said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was watching a few videos and some home brewer with kits boil the fermentables before adding extract, and I think one of the boiled the extract (all I could be wrong) but would this have an effect on the outcome?


What do you mean by boil the fermentables before adding extract? Extract is a fermentable. If you are talking steeped grains then yes, there are reasons to boil that for 15 or so minutes.
My approach is that if you are going to complicate your process somehow there has to be a reason for it. And then the reward has to outweigh any risks involved.

Extract (kit tin) should be largely sterile and has already been boiled as part of the production process. It's then dehydrated to turn it into the dense 1.7kg tin. By using it to create wort you're effectively re-hydrating it. If you then boil if you are only reducing it further and going to throw off any volatile hop flavour or aroma which was present in the first place.
Likewise with water, unless you are trying to boil off something in the water what are you achieving? Maybe if it's straight river water or at risk of containing bacteria after a WTP issue, but for general Australian tap water I can't see a need.


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## wobbly (5/8/15)

Why would you "boil the wort from grains" that have been steeped at 65C or above at all?

Dr Google will tell you that 65C will kill almost all bacteria harmful to man (of course there are exceptions) but they would be very unlikely to be associated with the grain or hops you add to your brew. I mean you just through hops into the fermenter for Dry hopping.

Pasteurisation of milk is carried out at 65C

Why do you boil all grain wort? For reasons other than sanitation I would suggest. Hop utilization, Hot Break formation to mention a few.

The same or similar hop utilization can be achieved by boiling your hops in water according to Beer Smith

As stated above if you boil your "kit" or the other fermentables (DME,LME Belgian Candy etc) you are just going to darken thoise products and possibly introduce flavours you didn't intend to

My 2c worth

Cheers

wobbly


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## TheWiggman (5/8/15)

A good reason to boil steeped grains is to remove SMM/DMS. Throwing the hops in the fermenter is a different story as hops have antibacterial properties.

Everything I've read (not much technically) indicates that hops should be boiled with malt, though I don't have a good technical reference explaining why.


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## wobbly (5/8/15)

At the risk of being accused of "Trolling" (again) I will refer you to the following from page 4 of the WilliamsWarn Advanced Recipe PDF. The full document can be view here http://www.williamswarn.com/ under the subject title of Additional Downloads

STEEPING GRAINS TO ADD COLOUR AND FLAVOUR
Use roughly 3.8 litres per 454g of grain (1 US gal per pound). This is 1 litre per 120g of grain. Heat the water to about 70°C/158°F and add the grain(s) to achieve a steeping temperature of about 65°C / 149°F.
This temperature *allows some pastuerisation *of the grain,* allows no DMS to form *(a sulphur compound) and* allows some conversion *of stach onto sugars for* any "base" malts *used.
Steep for 30 minutes. Stir well every 10 minutes. Strain into another pot. Rinse with 2L (67 fl.oz) of cold water. Add this grain tea to the brewery after you add the other ingredients, before top up.
If a large volume of water has been used because the recipe requires it (e.g. >6 litres/1.6 Gallons), it’s a good idea to let the final malt tea sit and cool down a bit before adding. So that the final wort of 23L size is not too warm for the yeast. In this case, do this steeping before cleaning the brewery so it has time to get to cool a bit while you clean.
For small amounts of grains steeped, you could use a coffee plunger as in the case of a small amount of hops steeped.
Examples of grains that can be steeped:
These must be milled (crushed) and can be obtained from most homebrew shops.
From left to right: Vienna 3.5°L; Munich 10°L; Crystal 40°L; Crystal 60°L; Crystal 120°L; Pale Chocolate 200°L; Carafa Special II 350°L; Roasted Barley 500°L 4

There are many on this site that have little regard for the WW however a simplified steeping procedure that is found to work it's hard to totally disregard.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## manticle (5/8/15)

Sterilisation of wort is actually one very big reason for boiling wort, regardless of what dr google tells you about milk or what that fairly averagely written document suggests you can get away with when fermenting in a closed system like yours.


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## Barge (5/8/15)

Also, FWIW, I have definitely boiled hops in water in my early days and found the bitterness to be as expected. i.e. they were (to me, a sample of one, not statistically significant, your mileage may vary, caveat, etc.) not perceptibly more or less bitter than if I boiled them in wort.

As far as sterilisation goes, it is dependent on microbe and then the temperature to sterilise each microbe depends on time as described here

Long story short is that it is complicated. For me, boiling wort, even for as little as 15 minutes, gives peace of mind. It may not be necessary but I know that it will cover the most likely sources of infection.

Cheers

Barge


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## Fourstar (5/8/15)

anything that does not come pasteurised in a tin, technically should be boiled to kill of any wild mirco-flora.

e.g. DME, table sugar, dex, Sseeped grain extract = boil

for example, i have had beer bottle carbed with table sugar dry out extremely over time (12+ months) there can be microflora in table sugar that eats long chain dextrins. whereas when its been made into a syrup not dry out the beer (barleywine bottled for 2-3 years).


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## barls (5/8/15)

wobbly said:


> At the risk of being accused of "Trolling" (again) I will refer you to the following from page 4 of the WilliamsWarn Advanced Recipe PDF. The full document can be view here http://www.williamswarn.com/ under the subject title of Additional Downloads
> 
> STEEPING GRAINS TO ADD COLOUR AND FLAVOUR
> Use roughly 3.8 litres per 454g of grain (1 US gal per pound). This is 1 litre per 120g of grain. Heat the water to about 70°C/158°F and add the grain(s) to achieve a steeping temperature of about 65°C / 149°F.
> ...


mate there are several serious piece of misinformation in there. just because they are brewers doesn't make it correct.
have a read here something that is by someone thats more educated than me
http://byo.com/yeast/item/1650-wort-boiling-homebrew-science
thats what is going on in the boil.
the main one i see as wrong is the dms. 
dms is formed post boil from smm ( the precursor) which is mainly from germination of barley. lighter malts have a higher amount as its removed when roasting the grains as heat removes it from the grain
have a ready here about it in depth
http://beerandbrewing.com/VJSzsisAAC0A1WG0/article/off-flavor-of-the-week-dms


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## manticle (5/8/15)

If I could expand on a couple of points.

Boiling for 60 mins pretty much sterilises the wort. Any microbes within are utterly destroyed.

Pasteurisation (65 is the real bottom end for that) will reduce microbes to a safe level for consumption or avoidance of spoilage. If microbes are reduced, they will, given the right conditions, multiply. It may well be that in a closed system like wobbly is talking about, the conditions are wrong. I don't know enough about pressurised environments to know.
However in all other circumstances it is prudent to kill off the microbes (naturally present in grain) as well as you can. This is why beer is boiled as wort then often pasteurised again before being released for sale.

As for hops - utilisation and wort gravity correlate. I believe there has been much discussion as to exactly why (it's not a causal relationship) but the formulae have been worked out through empirical testing. Boiling in water alone is considered by many to lead to the extraction of harsher tasting compounds.

Thirdly, while no dms (or very little) is forming at that temp, the precursor smm remains, as barls suggested. There are other mechanisms for converting it later down the track (and chances are it will remain in the beer) which is why converting it to dms then boiling it off is standard practice. It's only an issue for pale base malts, not crystals or roasts though.


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## wobbly (5/8/15)

Lets not loose sight of what the OP asked which was what would the effect be of boiling his "extract" He wasn't enquiring about full scale "all grain" wort production.

Most brewers who are using kit beers plus a bit of steeped grain/hops will most likely only be talking about steeping some crystal or roast malts and therefore the DMS argument doesn't necessarily hold

As to the matter of what survives a 65C steep and the likely impact it will have on the finished beer (or your health) I will leave that to the scientists

In the main I use "all grain" wort produced in a Braumeister in the "closed system" I use and don't have an issue. I have however fermented a couple of "Kits and Bits" with both the brews using the above referenced procedure and can honestly say I have not detected any adverse flavours.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## manticle (5/8/15)

Fine. Still not great advice to suggest steeping spec grains at 65 and adding straight in is ok and flies in the face of most brewing science.

If you want to 'leave it for the scientists' then leave it.
Nothing to do with health - just very well documented spoilage organisms.
Your advice was average at best and I'd be surprised if anything beyond a dodgy
interpretation of that pamphlett could suggest otherwise. You can do better.


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## manticle (6/8/15)

I played futsal and didn't break my leg or nose by the way.


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## Brewsta (6/8/15)

wow trystyrusty, you've deffinetly stirred the pot on this one...

fourstar - i never knew about the need to boil the dry ingredients as you say - interesting.

I've never had an infection in nine years of brewing though, & I don't boil them or liquid extracts. Do you think i'm just down right lucky or could it be the quality of ingredients available to us nowadays?


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## wereprawn (6/8/15)

Don't know why ,but when I was doing kits and extracts , I found boiling everything resulted in beer with terrible head retention. When only boiling just enough for hop additions, I always had a thick head on my beers.


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## trustyrusty (6/8/15)

@brewsta - wow did not mean to start this 

Thanks for great info...

Guys, this is posted in Kits and Extracts - all grain brewing is another debate I guess and probably more variables than anything...

I am trying to resolve an issue with my brews - I think that are a little bitter (and by bitter I mean after taste not the actual taste - there seems to be a lingering after taste of slight bitterness)

- > But it could be Coopers kits (99%) ( I made another brand the other day and I did not think that the wort was as bitter, POR discussion?)
-> The temperature that I am brewing at. (Coopers say between 15 - 32 I think) but I now read between 15 and 22 is the best for more most kits - ( I have sometimes 27 if hot days, at the moment 15 but mostly my notes say average is 24/26 deg.)

I am NOT boiling but I am add boiling water to sugars - mix them and then add extract.. perhaps the boiling water is still too high, maybe kit should not go over 80 deg. I thought that boiling might remove some impurities and that is where the bitterness is coming from or boiling hot water could be causing it.

I have tried some different yeasts, too me still seems a bit bitter - after taste. Is that twang? Try to find right terminology. I will back to another post I mentioned. Coopers Pale Ale on tap too me has a 'bitter' after taste / back of the throat (but pleasant to drink) whereas the 150 lashes does not.

I am trying to work out if the bitterness I might be getting is from too hot at mix or brand or something else. Is there an additive that might help, like dextrose?

Thanks


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## wobbly (6/8/15)

Fourstar said:


> anything that does not come pasteurised in a tin, technically should be boiled to kill of any wild mirco-flora.


OK so educate me

I understand that it is standard practice in the brewing industry to pasteurise all beer prior to consumption to between 15 and 20PU (Pasteurisation Units) and Dr Google tells me that pasteurisation is a function of time and temperature Viz:- 20 mins at 65C = 20PU and 15 secs at 72C also = 20PU

Therefore I assume steeping grains at 65C for 20 plus mins will achieve in excess of 20PU and kill most/all of the bugs generally found to impact on beer

Also wort from steeped grains will most likely still contain a high percentage of starch which will result in starch haze as a result of being boiled

SMM conversion to DMS requires heat above 65C and then requires removal through boiling. DMS is reported to be more pronounced in Pilsners and lighter beers associated with lighter malts and is not such an issue with Ales and darker grains

So if I steep at 65C for 30 mins I will have killed of all/most of the bugs likely to cause issue with beer, by not boiling the steeped wort I will minimise the introduction of starch haze as well as not introducing unwanted DMS 

Happy to be corrected

Cheers

Wobbly


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## earle (6/8/15)

The information on pasteurisation is applicable to beer. Maybe not as applicable to unfermented wort.


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## manticle (6/8/15)

wobbly said:


> OK so educate me
> 
> I understand that it is standard practice in the brewing industry to pasteurise all beer prior to consumption to between 15 and 20PU (Pasteurisation Units) and Dr Google tells me that pasteurisation is a function of time and temperature Viz:- 20 mins at 65C = 20PU and 15 secs at 72C also = 20PU
> 
> ...



All the information on why pasteurisation is inadequate when dealing with wort (not beer) and why SMM being unconverted is a potential issue was contained in the quite lengthy post I wrote earlier. Scan up the page. You did respond to it - maybe you didn't read it though.


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## wobbly (6/8/15)

manticle said:


> All the information on why* pasteurisation is inadequate *when dealing with wort (not beer) and why SMM being unconverted is a potential issue was contained in the quite lengthy post I wrote earlier. Scan up the page. You did respond to it - maybe you didn't read it though.


Well Brad Smith of Beer Smith seems to think it is OK to both hot (76C) and cold (room temperature) steep grains and then pasteurise (not boil) as per this article http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/11/17/brewing-beer-with-dark-grains-steeping-versus-mashing/ admittedly the discussion is about dark grains but how and why would it be any different with any of the other grains that are normally steeped such as Crystal etc.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## manticle (6/8/15)

While I would still recommend boiling the liquid, the reason dark grains might be ok with pasteurisation is that they are basically burnt to a crisp at high temperatures, thus killing any and all bugs (rather than just reducing) and converting all smm to dms then evaporating the volatile dms.


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## manticle (6/8/15)

It's not necessary to boil a kit which was the original question.

Unhopped extract I would boil with hops if not using a hopped kit as well. Steeped or mashed grain liquor I would always boil.

Most sugars should be fine with boiling water but if it makes you feel safer, a 2- 10 min boil is super easy. If bulk priming I boil, if using unopened commercial candy sugar I don't.


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## wobbly (6/8/15)

For those interested *Mary Anne Grubers *paper/experiments on both hot and cold steeping which is the basis of the Beersmith article referenced above can be found here http://www.babbrewers.com/files/newsletter/2004/2004-03.pdf

This site also indicates that Crystal malts are dried (kilned) at temperatures of around 120C for varying lengths of time depending on the degree of roast required
http://beersmith.com/blog/2014/06/26/caramel-and-crystal-malt-in-beer-brewing/ so just maybe most/all bugs have been killed during the drying process as well as converting and driving off any residual DMS

Malts that either need to be mashed or can be steeped (according to Beersmith) can be found here http://beersmith.com/grain-list/

I also want to point out that I am not trying to start a "shit fight" on this subject just wanting to ensure that the information about steeping is not confused with all grain mashing, and in any event it is almost academic to me as I have stated before I make most of my beers from fresh wort out of a Braumeister

Cheers

Wobbly


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## manticle (6/8/15)

Her article is on flavour extraction. I cold steep my roast malts too when using a large portion (stouts, porters) and add to the end of the mash (adding to the end of the boil would be fine too as she suggests in the linked article). They do mention not boiling but that is purely for discerning flavour difference - recommendation is still to boil.

Roast and crystals are a possible yes (definitely no smm/dms, bugs unlikely depending on storage conditions) although boiling is an easy safeguard but your link on the subject that I responded to also suggested malts that are kilned at much lower temps (vienna, munich) and it is well worth pointing out that pssteurisation does not and is not intended to kill all bugs. If they are present, they can grow.


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## Brewsta (7/8/15)

my apologies Trustyrusty…i should not have mentioned the word GRAIN in this thread...

but wow, it's a good read….i'm still trying to get my head around it all, thanks guys.

getting back to your recent post Trustyrusty, for years i was trying to add different things to change the taste of kits & trying different processes to get them to match commercial beers. But after numerous attempts i still could not get rid of the after taste that i think you may be talking about??? which could quite possibly be extract twang??? and maybe not bitterness (re the POR hops discussion)

it's hard to say without tasting it, but i'd describe extract twang as a sort of a sourness, bittery type twang that's there after you've swallowed a mouthful, but not so noticeable when its in your mouth. ( :blink: this doesn't read good i'm gonna get hammered on this post for sure!)

if it is extract twang you are referring too, i think it's in the can and maybe more so in some than others? so if your other brand wasn't so bad, stick with it..

In the last few years i've been able to brew beers that are low in twang & i'm pretty happy with them, thanks to the knowledge of others on this site.

Here's what i did on their advice that has improved my brews out of site.

1. i got my fermentation temperatures under control, constant correct temperature via a temperature controlled fridge set up (i think the most important change)
2. i don't use the kit yeasts anymore & pitch them at the manufactures rate & temperature (not the instructions on the kits)
3. i always make sure my ingredients are as fresh as possible
4. I use a combination of kit, liquid malt extract, dry malt extract, dextrose & brew enhancers
5. (oh no not that dreaded word again!) I steep some specialty BRAINS - (see what i did there..phew! hopefully no one will notice)

I don't think your process with mixing the ingredients & adding the boiled water is causing the issue though, i just add all the above into the fermenter & mix well.
good luck i hope you find the answer to your questions.


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## mongey (7/8/15)

the more I've learend in the last 12 months making homebrew the more I've learnt it seems seems to be a collection of opions and there is no 1 way


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## trustyrusty (7/8/15)

I am afraid to ask another question  @brewsta, thanks


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## trustyrusty (7/8/15)

Brewsta said:


> it's hard to say without tasting it, but i'd describe extract twang as a sort of a sourness, bittery type twang that's there after you've swallowed a mouthful, but not so noticeable when its in your mouth. ( :blink: this doesn't read good i'm gonna get hammered on this post for sure!)


yes is probably what I am trying to say.... there is bitter / sour after taste which you sometimes get..


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## manticle (7/8/15)

Trustyrusty said:


> I am afraid to ask another question  @brewsta, thanks


Don't be


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## Barge (7/8/15)

Here's my 2c on identifying extract 'twang'.

First off, I'm typing this after 4 cans of Sierra Nevada so anything could happen.

Secondly, in my experience of twang, it was only noticeable when using hopped extracts. That is, when I moved from hopped kits to boiling hops and using liquid and dry extract then the twang was gone.

For example, outlined below are 3 iterations of the same beer as extract, partial and all grain. The extract twang was noticeable in the first batch but was definitely absent in the other 2. Now I'm aware that other variables (most obviously yeast type) are at play here but I definitely noticed as a transitioned from kits and bits to partial mash, or at least extract and full hop boil, that the twang disappeared. 

IMHO, I think that the twang comes from hopped extract, and that boiling has nothing to do with it. Also, I think that boiling the liquor from steeped grain may be unnecessary, but it is fairly straightforward, and offers peace of mind. 


From 2004

Czech Mate

*Brew Type:* Extract

*Date:* 25/10/2004

*Style:* Bohemian Pilsner

*Brewer:* Barge

*Batch Size:* 23.00 L

*Assistant Brewer:*

*Boil Volume:* 2.00 L

*Boil Time:* 60 min

*Equipment:* My Equipment
*Taste Rating (50 possible points): 30.0*
Mild Hop flavour and aroma. Solid malt character with good mouth feel. Darker (redder) than suggested (Needs bittering hops in addition to 35min boil of aroma hops)


*Ingredients*

Amount

Item

Type

% or IBU

1.70 kg

Morgans Export - Golden Saaz Pilsener (8.9 EBC)

Extract

49.28 %

1.00 kg

Morgans Master Blend Lager Malt (3.9 EBC)

Extract

28.99 %

12.00 gm

Hallertauer [4.80 %] (35 min)

Hops

7.5 IBU

12.00 gm

Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (15 min)

Hops

3.4 IBU

0.45 kg

Dextrose (0.0 EBC)

Sugar

13.04 %

0.30 kg

Maltodextrin (0.0 EBC)

Sugar

8.70 %

1 Pkgs

Lager Yeast (Morgans)

Yeast-Lager




*Beer Profile*

*Estimated Original Gravity:* 1.047 SG (1.044-1.056 SG)

*Measured Original Gravity:* 1.045 SG

*Estimated Final Gravity:* 1.014 SG (1.013-1.017 SG)

*Measured Final Gravity:* 1.015 SG

*Estimated Color:* 6.9 EBC (5.9-9.9 EBC)

*Color* *[Color]*

*Bitterness:* 34.3 IBU (35.0-45.0 IBU)

*Alpha Acid Units:* 9.0 AAU

*Estimated Alcohol by Volume:* 4.30 % (4.00-5.30 %)

*Actual Alcohol by Volume:* 3.91 %

*Actual Calories:* 424 cal/l


*Carbonation and Storage*

*Carbonation Type:* Kegged (Forced CO2)

*Carbonation Volumes:* 2.4 (2.3-2.6 vols)

*Estimated Pressure:* 74.4 KPA

*Kegging Temperature:* 4.0 C

*Pressure Used:* -

*Age for:* 4.0 Weeks

*Storage Temperature:* 4.0 C



2005



Czech Mate (SWIG)

*Brew Type:* Partial Mash

*Date:* 2/07/2005

*Style:* German Pilsner (Pils)

*Brewer:* Barge

*Batch Size:* 25.00 L

*Assistant Brewer:* Rell & Bubby

*Boil Volume:* 14.99 L

*Boil Time:* 60 min

*Brewhouse Efficiency:* 60.00 %

*Equipment:* Brew Pot (17L) and Esky Mash Tun (27L)

*Actual Efficiency:* 60.54 %

*Taste Rating (50 possible points): 40.0*
Nice balance of bitterness, flavour and aroma.

*Ingredients*

Amount

Item

Type

% or IBU

0.30 kg

Starter (15.8 EBC)

Dry Extract

5.55 %

0.10 kg

Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC)

Dry Extract

1.85 %

1.50 kg

Morgans Kettled Extracts - Extra Pale (3.5 EBC)

Extract

27.73 %

2.70 kg

Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.2 EBC)

Grain

49.91 %

0.54 kg

Munich Malt - Wynnum HBS (14.0 EBC)

Grain

9.98 %

0.27 kg

Cara-Pils - Wynnum HBS (3.9 EBC)

Grain

4.99 %

24.00 gm

Pride of Ringwood [8.00 %] (60 min)

Hops

18.5 IBU

8.00 gm

Pride of Ringwood [10.10 %] (60 min)

Hops

7.8 IBU

20.00 gm

Saaz [3.40 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop)

Hops

7.2 IBU

15.00 gm

Saaz [3.40 %] (45 min)

Hops

4.5 IBU

15.00 gm

Saaz [3.40 %] (30 min)

Hops

3.8 IBU

0.50 tsp

Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 min)

Misc



1.00 items

Wort Chiller (Boil 15.0 min)

Misc



1 Pkgs

Bohemian Lager (Cascade) [Starter 2500 ml] [Cultured]

Yeast-Lager



*Beer Profile*

*Estimated Original Gravity:* 1.050 SG (1.044-1.050 SG)

*Measured Original Gravity:* 1.050 SG

*Estimated Final Gravity:* 1.013 SG (1.008-1.013 SG)

*Measured Final Gravity:* 1.013 SG

*Estimated Color:* 8.7 EBC (3.9-9.9 EBC)

*Color* *[Color]*

*Bitterness:* 41.8 IBU (25.0-45.0 IBU)

*Alpha Acid Units:* 15.6 AAU

*Estimated Alcohol by Volume:* 4.79 % (4.40-5.20 %)

*Actual Alcohol by Volume:* 4.82 %

*Actual Calories:* 470 cal/l


*Mash Profile*

*Name:* SWIG 1

*Mash Tun Weight:* 2.00 kg

*Mash Grain Weight:* 3.51 kg

*Mash PH:* 5.4 PH

*Grain Temperature:* 22.2 C

*Sparge Temperature:* 75.6 C

*Sparge Water:* 0.00 L

*Adjust Temp for Equipment:* TRUE

Name

Description

Step Temp

Step Time

Mash In

Add 11.90 L of water at 76.3 C

68.3 C

60 min

Mash Out

Add 5.85 L of water at 92.8 C

75.6 C

10 min



*Carbonation and Storage*

*Carbonation Type:* Kegged (Forced CO2)

*Carbonation Volumes:* 2.4 (2.4-2.8 vols)

*Estimated Pressure:* 74.4 KPA

*Kegging Temperature:* 4.0 C

*Pressure Used:* -

*Age for:* 4.0 Weeks

*Storage Temperature:* 4.0 C

*Notes*
O.G. into boiler = 1.036. Keg refrigerated on 28/08/05. Keg started 4/9/05




and 2007



Czech Mate '07

*Brew Type:* All Grain

*Date:* 30/06/2007

*Style:* Bohemian Pilsner

*Brewer:* Barge

*Batch Size:* 26.50 L

*Assistant Brewer:* Rell, Harry & Ava

*Boil Volume:* 32.96 L

*Boil Time:* 75 min

*Brewhouse Efficiency:* 75.00 %

*Equipment:* Electric Kettle (40L) and Esky Mash Tun (27L)

*Actual Efficiency:* 75.22 %

*Taste Rating (50 possible points): 45.0*
Very Nice!

*Ingredients*

Amount

Item

Type

% or IBU

2.50 kg

Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC)

Grain

45.45 %

2.50 kg

Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC)

Grain

45.45 %

0.25 kg

Carafoam (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC)

Grain

4.55 %

0.25 kg

Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC)

Grain

4.55 %

30.00 gm

Pride of Ringwood [10.00 %] (60 min)

Hops

28.7 IBU

30.00 gm

Saaz [2.50 %] (45 min)

Hops

6.6 IBU

30.00 gm

Saaz [2.50 %] (30 min)

Hops

5.5 IBU

30.00 gm

Saaz [2.50 %] (15 min)

Hops

3.6 IBU

0.35 gm

Polyclar (Bottling 9.0 days)

Misc



1.50 tsp

Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min)

Misc



2 Pkgs

Saflager 34/70 (DCL Yeast #34/70)

Yeast-Lager



*Beer Profile*

*Estimated Original Gravity:* 1.049 SG (1.044-1.056 SG)

*Measured Original Gravity:* 1.049 SG

*Estimated Final Gravity:* 1.013 SG (1.013-1.017 SG)

*Measured Final Gravity:* 1.015 SG

*Estimated Color:* 6.5 EBC (7.9-11.8 EBC)

*Color* *[Color]*

*Bitterness:* 44.3 IBU (35.0-45.0 IBU)

*Alpha Acid Units:* 18.5 AAU

*Estimated Alcohol by Volume:* 4.70 % (4.20-5.40 %)

*Actual Alcohol by Volume:* 4.43 %

*Actual Calories:* 463 cal/l


*Mash Profile*

*Name:* Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge

*Mash Tun Weight:* 1.10 kg

*Mash Grain Weight:* 5.50 kg

*Mash PH:* 5.4 PH

*Grain Temperature:* 22.2 C

*Sparge Temperature:* 75.6 C

*Sparge Water:* 27.14 L

*Adjust Temp for Equipment:* FALSE

Name

Description

Step Temp

Step Time

Mash In

Add 14.33 L of water at 74.4 C

67.8 C

60 min


*Mash Notes*
Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
*Carbonation and Storage*

*Carbonation Type:* Dried Malt Extract

*Carbonation Volumes:* 2.5 (2.3-2.6 vols)

*Estimated Priming Weight:* 251.0 gm

*Temperature at Bottling:* 22.0 C

*Primer Used:* -

*Age for:* 4.0 Weeks

*Storage Temperature:* 20.0 C


*Notes*
Full wort boil on 30/6/07, yeast pitched two days later (2/7/07) at 20C. Primary for 7 days. Racked to secondary, couldn't lager until fridge available then lagered for 9 weeks. Added Polyclar VT 9 days before bottling on 27/9. Bulk primed with 250gm of DME, expecting 26L. Only got 21.5L; carbonation 2.8 volumes.


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## Brewsta (7/8/15)

holy in depth brewing Barge!!!

wow that's not 2 cents worth, that's 2 grands worth…i don't know if my wee brain can even absorb that much information.

& ditto Manticles words Trustyrusty, "don't be" i was always told as an apprentice there's no such thing as a stupid question only stupid mistakes….theres a wealth of knowledge on this site, I just take bits from it what I think will go towards answering my questions & then form my own opinion, be right or wrong who really cares? 

At the end of the day it's about producing beer that taste good to us that really matters isn't it?


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## Fourstar (7/8/15)

wobbly said:


> OK so educate me


My examples relate to post boil use of fermentables. IMO these should be boiled 100% of the time if you're interested in any long term stability of your beer.

Typically kit/extract brewers are adding unadulterated tap water and factory processed then LHBS handled ingredients straight into their fermenter. There is no post-processing at home like all gran that includes sterilisation of wort. This is a point of infection.


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## Brewsta (8/8/15)

in theory i would agree with you 100% Fourstar, but i've never had an infection in nine years of brewing and i do exactly as you have mentioned above, except i use filtered rain water.

So sometimes practice proves theory _not to be wrong_ but sometimes not completely necessary. i've had this debate with engineers throughout my career, whilst i respect their knowledge & this world wouldn't be what it is today without them, some of them will go way over board when designing something on paper but in practice you can get away with much less, it may not be right but it still works..it depends on the expected outcome.

will it be an award winning beer, maybe not... but will it be drinkable for the average hombrewer, hell yeah!

i guess it depends on where you sit with your beermaking, i think some of us just want to brew beer we can drink without getting balls deep in the theory side of things, some love the hobby & want to try & continually improve their brews and others are aspiring craft brewers.


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## manticle (8/8/15)

Nothing wrong with knowing what best practice is and why. You then decide what shortcuts you're happy to take with your beer.


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## Fourstar (8/8/15)

Brewsta said:


> in theory i would agree with you 100% Fourstar, but i've never had an infection in nine years of brewing and i do exactly as you have mentioned above, except i use filtered rain water.



This is where Im the other side of the control sample and say I've had the reverse results from what you describe. 

I'm also 9 years continuous (12 total) home brewing and found around 6 years ago (around 2009/2010) the impact of not boiling table sugar for bottling, impacted long term stability of the beer. Short term, not so much but 6 months in the bottle and i'd have dry, highly carbonated beer. Ive also seen for the same beer in a keg as bottled, 9-12 months down the track, not a stability issue in sight (force carbed by CO2).


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## Brewsta (8/8/15)

true that Manticle, I couldn't agree more.

Fourstar, how did you prove that it was the sugar? i would imagine there are other variables that could've contributed to this? it'd be hard to pin down to just one thing without conducting some sort of mad scientific experiment?

but you know what, i really can't comment on my beers stability over six months, mine are lucky to last 3 months before they end up at the waste water treatment plant or liquid fertiliser at the base of my lime tree…so maybe mine would be doing the same??? i don't use sugar though so who knows….


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## Fourstar (8/8/15)

Brewsta said:


> Fourstar, how did you prove that it was the sugar? i would imagine there are other variables that could've contributed to this? it'd be hard to pin down to just one thing without conducting some sort of mad scientific experiment?


To be honest, i found the result coincidentally and continued to do it as i was sick of beer hitting 6 months of age and randomly gushing.

I only learnt this at ANHC when we there was a microbiologist from Ballarat uni talk about microbes and one was on beers 'gushing' without any noticeable flavour. Turns out it relates to sucrose passing in a microbe (i cant remember what it was exactly) to the beer and it all fell in place.

I cringe every time i bottle something quickly (for a comp usually) and i dont boil the sugar. Im waiting for the result of "beer was a gusher, nothing made it to the jug."


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## wobbly (9/8/15)

Fourstar

If you now boil your sugar solution do you also bulk prime those beers you bottle?
Prior to boiling your sugar how did you prime your bottles for those beer you bottled from the fermenter?
Do you cold crash your beers before bottling/kegging and if so for how long and what temperature?

I ask these questions because your bottled keg beers may well be completely different with respect to the amount of yeast and fermentabels still in suspension come bottling time

Back to the original question on the need to boil "other" fermentables such as steeped grain prior to adding them to the fermenter I contend from what I have read/seen provided you pasteurise the wort (65C for greater than 15mins) you will be OK. So why go the additional step of boiling.

I don't have any argument about if you are doing a boil in any event, to add the steeped grain to the boil, but if you aren't why is it necessary to go that step further if you have pasteurised the wort by holding it at 65C for 15minutes or longer.

Wobbly


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## Barge (9/8/15)

wobbly said:


> I don't have any argument about if you are doing a boil in any event, to add the steeped grain to the boil, but if you aren't why is it necessary to go that step further if you have pasteurised the wort by holding it at 65C for 15minutes or longer.


Peace of mind. It's easy and I know that a 15 minute boil will kill, not just diminish the population of, a majority of organisms. It's also a no-brainer in terms of temp vs time. I know it's at 100C and I know that it's been boiled for 15 min.


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## Rocker1986 (9/8/15)

It makes the kitchen smell nice.

When I was doing small additions of spec. grains and short hop boils I just chucked the wort from the grain in with the hop boil. Same reasons as above really.

Besides, pasteurising at 65C for 15 minutes might be enough to kill bugs to stop humans getting sick, but it may not be adequate to kill bugs that could result in an infection during fermentation etc. Easier just to boil it for peace of mind to me.


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## manticle (9/8/15)

wobbly said:


> Fourstar
> 
> If you now boil your sugar solution do you also bulk prime those beers you bottle?
> Prior to boiling your sugar how did you prime your bottles for those beer you bottled from the fermenter?
> ...


The why has been addressed several times now. Whether you would take that step yourself is totally up to you and essentially irrelevant otherwise. You know why and to suggest you don't is either ignorant or deliberately obtuse.

Pasteurisation reduces microbes. It doesn't kill/remove/destroy all of them . Beer spoilage microbes occur naturally on grain. If you reduce only through pasteurisation, they can potentially grow: if you kill, they cannot unless another source exists.
By all means don't boil but don't pretend it's a mystery why someone else might or would recommend the process.


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## Brewsta (9/8/15)

to sum it up then, would it be fair to say then,

a. if you are the average Jo Blo who brews their own beer for the reasons of cost savings, as a hobby or whatever & are able to brew a beer that you feel is ok to drink, then it's probably not necessary to boil your ingredients and not be too concerned with the nitty gritty of brewing, just get the foundations right. 

b. if you have been brewing for a while & have had problems with beer stability, or microbial infections & want to improve your brews but haven't been a boiler then maybe consider boiling your ingredients as well as sugar for bulk priming?

c. if you are really into your brewing & brew beers for competition, then it is imperative to boil your ingredients paying particular attention to every single step in the brewing process to achieve the very best beer you possibly can?

nothing wrong with either scenario if you ask me, just be happy with what your doing & be open to suggestion.

Trustyrusty, has this thread answered your question or are you still confused?


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## manticle (9/8/15)

It's fair to say; know what you are doing and why, take your own risks and understand what they are, relate desired results and actual results and when making recommendations to others, offer the same information so they can make their own informed decision.

No-one cares if wobbly wants to boil. Wobbly keeps asking 'why would you?' Question has been answered and wobbly is experienced enough to know this. Anyone who thinks wobbly is an inexperienced brewer asking innocent questions is mistaken and the only reason I have continued to be so vocal in this thread is so new brewers do not read wobbly's advice and think that's a good way to go. Read, brew, think.
Your beer, your process but examine and understand the hows and whys.


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## AJH (10/8/15)

i dont boil but I do throw the dextros and malt together with the can of extract into a large pan and heat and stir untill it,s all disolved the only boiling water is in the extract can to get the lot out I then tip that into my fermenter . It is all mixed together and is the easier to to give a final stir and add yeast I,ve had no problems.


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## Barge (10/8/15)

I was shown how to homebrew from a mate who had been doing it for years. An original kit and kilo man, he was. He would stand the unopened can of Coopers Draught in a sink of hot water to 'loosen' it up a bit. He would then pour that into the empty fermenter, throw a 1kg of homebrand sugar on it, rinse the can out with boiling hot water from the kettle and then 1/3 fill the fermenter with tap water. He would then swirl to dissolve, top up with tap water and cover with cling wrap. 

The results were as expected. Tasted ordinary but no infections. I did it that way for a while myself (substituting dex and malt extract for the sucrose) and had no hint of infection. As for stability my experience is similar to that already stated. The beer never lasted long enough.

With respect to OP's original concern I was also disappointed with the beer. No head (already married so getting little enough of that as is) and an unpleasant after taste. Only when I switched to unhopped extract and boiled hop additions did the flavour go away. 

Even now though I don't feel the need to boil all extract. Did a partial the other day and mashed about 2.5kg of grain and did a 15L boil on the stovetop. No-chilled in the pot on the bench overnight and transferred to fermenter the next day. Added a kg of DME and topped up with water. 

I brew this way regularly with no issues. Again the beer never lasts long enough for stability to be a factor. I've been brewing for over 15 years. All sorts of methods and have never had an infected batch. I've had plenty with an odd aftertaste and ALL of those were hopped extracts.


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## Fourstar (10/8/15)

to make it simple, i always bring it back to the process of baking a cake.

Kit:
you can spend 96cents, buy a packet of home brand vanilla cake, add water and an egg, bake and end up with something pretty delicious for around 2 bucks.

Partial
you could spend 6 bucks on a betty crocker packet mix, add an egg and oil and supplied frosting and end up with something marginally better than the first.

All grain:
you could make a cake from scratch, spend time, effort and money on crafting something X times the quality of a kit or partial cake and be pretty chuffed with the results.


The more time money and effort i put into brewing, the less i am inclined to cut corners. Why would i spend 8 hours brewing and then decide to lick the rim of the bottle or bottling wand before i put the lid on the beer? This is the same reason why i now boil sugar before bottling. an insurance policy.

also the questions regarding my fermentation/conditioning pre bottling and kegging hasn't changed in a very long time. I ferment to a handful of points before terminal, ramp for diacetyl rest (and/or add dry hops), hold x days (varies if dry hopping), cold condition for 5-7days then keg or bottle direct from fermenter.

horses for courses but ill sleep easier knowing I've lowered my chances of having to dump a beer i want to be able to drink in two years time.


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## Brewsta (11/8/15)

2 years fourstar??? i thought beer started to deteriorate after about 12 months, have i been misinformed?

Barge…_"No head (already married so getting little enough of that as is) and an unpleasant after taste." Ha! LOL_

Have you tried introducing some steeped grains in her diet, that might improve your head retention...


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## manticle (11/8/15)

The chemical teactions that lead to beer staling start way earlier than even making the beer. However fourstar is talking about slow working microbial action.
In either case there are things you can do to extend the shelf life. Some bewr ages well, some doesn't. They're all different.


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