# Sparge water treatment



## Bonenose

Hi all,

I have been looking into water treatment over the last few days and am a bit confused about sparge water treatment. I am using a Robobrew so at end of the mash lift mash pipe out and run sparge water through it, so given that my mash is over when doing this is there any point in treating my sparge water?

Am I missing something here, happy to admit my ignorance still new to me.

To clarify my water is is fairly neutral 7.6pH and no high levels of anything that I can tell, again given my limited knowledge, and also no chlorine.

Cheers


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## good4whatAlesU

Hi Bn,
It depends what beer you're brewing as to how the water profile should be adjusted.

Where are you sourcing your water?


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## labels

Bonenose said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have been looking into water treatment over the last few days and am a bit confused about sparge water treatment. I am using a Robobrew so at end of the mash lift mash pipe out and run sparge water through it, so given that my mash is over when doing this is there any point in treating my sparge water?
> 
> Am I missing something here, happy to admit my ignorance still new to me.
> 
> To clarify my water is is fairly neutral 7.6pH and no high levels of anything that I can tell, again given my limited knowledge, and also no chlorine.
> 
> Cheers


I can't see any reason to treat your sparge water any different from your mash water and I think most people here would use the same water. 

pH is seldom a problem when brewing and of all the things you need to concern yourself about, pH is probably near the bottom. Unless you're using way-off water which you're not. You can add Calcium Chloride and/or Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulphate) which will lower your pH and also alter your water profile. Also Gypsum will help. 

The buffering effects of the natural acids in the mash are huge and adding acid has a limited effect. It will lower it but only to a point where it will pretty much bottom out.

My view, concentrate on brewing good beer, look after your yeast and leave the pH to look after itself.


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## Bonenose

Water source is bore water.
 I am not really worried about pH have been messing around with water calculator on brewers freind and looking at making some additions of gypsum and salt based on this. Was just wondering if there was any advantage in treating my sparge water or if I just treat water for the mash.


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## good4whatAlesU

Your sparge water goes into your finished beer.. so yes, it's worth treating it if it has any flaws or if you are aiming for a particular profile.


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## Bonenose

According to water calculator my Ca and SO4 are low so using gypsum to bring them up and then salt for sulphate to chloride ratio. Brewed a few beers so far with no issue without any water treatment, wanted to have a crack at a few with some treated water see if there is much difference.


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## MHB

It is absolutely worth at least Acidifying your sparge water, other salt additions can be beneficial but acidifying is really important.
If the pH is Alkaline it will extract tannins really quickly, you also want the total amount of Ca in the kettle at the start of the boil to be 50-100ppm minimum.
So after having a look at your water profile, remember that the Ca content is on all the wort you collect, if you don't have enough in the mash water to keep the minimum Ca content when it is diluted with sparge water, adding more to the mash or to the sparge water is a good idea.
Mark


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## Bonenose

Calcium is only 25 so need to treat that, did not know about acidifying sparge water will have to get onto that.


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## mtb

I acidify sparge water with a quick 1mL shot of lactic acid. Easy to use, just grab a cheap syringe off fleaBay, and it's worth it for peace of mind IMO.


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## manticle

If you go to the effort of treating mash pH, it's worthwile treating the sparge water (and super easy). I just use lactic - extra calcium salts go to the kettle but either way is fine.


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## Bonenose

Ok cheers guys, I'll get on to it.


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## Quokka42

I disagree with most comments here, and agree with sources such as Brun and Brewer's Friend - use your water to sparge as is. The low pH is only required for the mash, which should be stopped by now, and it sounds like you have all the nutrients you need for the ferment. Read the comments on the Brun water site - if your brew turns out too malty the first thing to try is just boiling then decanting your water (bore water tends to be a bit hard.)

If it ain't broke - don't fix it.


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## Jack of all biers

+ 1 for MHB and Manticle's advice, but as a bit of explanation I'll expand. Labels is fairly well spot on for Mashing, but the question is about treating sparge water. If when sparging the liquor in the mash goes above a pH of 6 then you start to enter the territory of extraction of tannins which can lead to an astringency in your beer. If your mash is a pH of 5.2-5.8 then it will buffer at that pH for quite sometime before it rises with the pH of the sparge water. Now if as in the OP the sparge water pH is 7.6 then towards the end of the sparge the pH will naturally rise above 6 as the buffering ability of the mash is reduced as the sugars are rinsed away. 

Whilst it is not a must, if you want to improve your beers by playing with your sparge water, then pH adjustment is the first place to start. Play with Brewers Friends advanced water calculator for sparge water adjustment. Calcium, zinc and other ions can be added too, but adding them to the mash maybe better to assist mash pH and enzyme activity.

And for the record the Water book, for which Martin Brungard had some input recommends that sparge water be adjusted to a pH of 5.7 (as insurance) to ensure that the mash pH never reaches 6 during the sparge. For example the heat of the sparge water then has no effect on tannin extraction when the pH is below 6 (decoction not extracting tannin astringency is a good example of this).

EDIT - my above writings are not just from reading books, but also from thorough and accurate testing of water (liquor and sparge), mash, first runnings and last runnings. Even with my average sparge water pH of 6.8 the last runnings have sometimes risen above 6, although on lighter coloured beers I'll admit and only just.


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## manticle

Quokka42 said:


> I disagree with most comments here, and agree with sources such as Brun and Brewer's Friend - use your water to sparge as is. The low pH is only required for the mash, which should be stopped by now, and it sounds like you have all the nutrients you need for the ferment. Read the comments on the Brun water site - if your brew turns out too malty the first thing to try is just boiling then decanting your water (bore water tends to be a bit hard.)
> 
> If it ain't broke - don't fix it.


Where does brun say that?


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## MHB

Quokka42 said:


> I disagree with most comments here, and agree with sources such as Brun and Brewer's Friend - use your water to sparge as is. The low pH is only required for the mash, which should be stopped by now, and it sounds like you have all the nutrients you need for the ferment. Read the comments on the Brun water site - if your brew turns out too malty the first thing to try is just boiling then decanting your water (bore water tends to be a bit hard.)
> 
> If it ain't broke - don't fix it.


I think you need to do a bit more reading, or perhaps re-reading because you clearly didn't understand the stuff you have read already.
The OP said his Ca was 25ppm, which is very low, however bore water can vary from near zero to so minerally it isn't drinkable, but at 25ppm it is unlikely to be "Hard" and recommending "boiling and decanting" the classic treatment for high temporary hardness isn't just irrelevant its pretty stupid.
Mark


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## Mardoo

I love AHB late night.


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## Benn

Now might be a good time for me to chime in with a question about which way round to hold the instructions for my Ph meter,


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## Jack of all biers

Depends if it's a cheap Chinese ebay one. If so, turn them upside down, light a match, stand back... h34r:


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## rude

Opp could use R/O water to sparge then he wouldnt have to acidify
but would have to buy R/O unit filters


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## Bonenose

Right, correct me if I am wrong, so I can do my salt additions to achieve my desired water profile in with my mash water only, using total water volume in the calculator of course and then just an acid addition to the sparge water to adjust pH.


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## MHB

That is a reasonable option, water chemistry can be pretty basic or carried to extremes. If you get the basics right that will get you most of the benefits after that its fine-tuning and personal taste.
Basics for me are :-
Have a reasonable Ca content in the mash, I would start with 100ppm total (minimum) unless your Mg content is very high, if so wind the Ca back a bit.
Get the mash pH right, add acid or acid malt to get into the right range.
Whether or not your salts are added to the mash only or you are treating all your water first, acidify your sparge water, make sure the pH is <6. This makes a big difference to the rate that Tannins can be extracted from the husks (adding astringency).

Bonenose. Where are you located? I had a look at the water for a small brewery in Victoria (Blizzard) their "town" water is bore water, but its snow melt water held on a granite base, the local utility just UV sterilise it and pump it, so no Cl to remove and next to nothing else in it, dam near distilled water.
Have to admit that that is an exception, bore water is often quite high in salts - have you got an analysis, if so share, would be interesting to see just what is in there.
Mark


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## good4whatAlesU

As MHB says bore water can be fantastic and it also can be ordinary depending on the aquifer it's being drawn from and the mineralogy of geology.

Speight's in Dunedin have access to lovely bore water and for "megaswill" actually make some lovely beers - their Gold Medal Ale is not bad at all.

Edit: The gold medal ale on tap is from the Dunedin factory (using bore water). The bottles and cans are brewed in Auckland (not using bore water) and apparently are not as good.


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## fungrel

Bonenose said:


> Right, correct me if I am wrong, so I can do my salt additions to achieve my desired water profile in with my mash water only, using total water volume in the calculator of course and then just an acid addition to the sparge water to adjust pH.


Yep. Just to complicate your thought process, I only add salts to the mash when making lagers but i always acidify sparge water.

It all depends on which style you are brewing though as the timing of these additions can change and do have an impact on the final flavour profile. 

As an example, I measure acid and other salts that are then added to the boil as a sort of "salt and pepper" when making hoppy beers. 



There are a lot of ways you can add these minerals, i think most simply add in the mash, acidify sparge water and leave it at that, and that is a perfectly acceptable way of doing things. It can be as simple or as complex as you like it to be.


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## mtb

fungrel said:


> Yep. Just to complicate your thought process, I only add salts to the mash when making lagers but i always acidify sparge water.
> 
> It all depends on which style you are brewing though as the timing of these additions can change and do have an impact on the final flavour profile.
> 
> As an example, I measure acid and other salts that are then added to the boil as a sort of "salt and pepper" when making hoppy beers.
> 
> 
> 
> There are a lot of ways you can add these minerals, i think most simply add in the mash and leave it at that, and that is a perfectly acceptable way of doing things. It can be as simple or as complex as you like it to be.


You add acid and salts to the boil? All info I can find seems to indicate that would only contribute to flavour. Why not add to the mash?


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## fungrel

mtb said:


> You add acid and salts to the boil? All info I can find seems to indicate that would only contribute to flavour. Why not add to the mash?


In that instance i add salts to the mash and to the boil. Style-dependent. 

Like MHB and others have reiterated in previous posts, calcium is important for certain beer styles. It's always important for yeast health. 

I always add acid and salts to the mash, i brew with RO water with a starting pH of ~10.0. I always acidify sparge water. The water you sparge with should be as considered as that of the mash water. Extracting tannins from too high a pH is very real. Been there, and it sucks.


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## Bonenose

Located out of Darwin, have attached details of bore reports below top one is water resources bore two blocks down from me bore report for it is recent as it is used as a water quality test bore second one is from my original bore report and I have been using an average of the two in the water calculator, have looked at a few other reports from blocks around mine and are all fairly similar water resources bore has the most recent report however these are from different times of the year therefore thinking that the average will give me a reasonable base line to work from.

​*Bore*​*pH*​*Alkalinity*​*Total Hardness*​*Ca*​*Mg*​*SO**[SIZE=8pt]4[/SIZE]*​*Na*​*Cl*​*HCO**[SIZE=8pt]3[/SIZE]*​WR 29384​7.5​124​131​20.5​19.5​1.7​2.3​4.7​124​Mine 28873​7.8​190​198​33​28​7​2​7​232​Average​7.65​157​164.5​26.75​23.75​4.35​2.15​5.85​178​​Ok would appear that I cannot insert a table but numbers are there if you can make sense of them​


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## manticle

mtb said:


> You add acid and salts to the boil? All info I can find seems to indicate that would only contribute to flavour. Why not add to the mash?


While getting mash pH right is super important, boil pH is also relevant.

@fungrel - your RO water is pH 10?


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## fungrel

manticle said:


> While getting mash pH right is super important, boil pH is also relevant.
> 
> @fungrel - your RO water is pH 10?


Yes. 6 stage unit with alkalizing filter. So i could load up on Sulfate when making hoppy beers without having to add anything to bring up pH. Works well.


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## Adr_0

Bonenose said:


> Located out of Darwin, have attached details of bore reports below top one is water resources bore two blocks down from me bore report for it is recent as it is used as a water quality test bore second one is from my original bore report and I have been using an average of the two in the water calculator, have looked at a few other reports from blocks around mine and are all fairly similar water resources bore has the most recent report however these are from different times of the year therefore thinking that the average will give me a reasonable base line to work from.
> 
> ​*Bore*​*pH*​*Alkalinity*​*Total Hardness*​*Ca*​*Mg*​*SO**[SIZE=8pt]4[/SIZE]*​*Na*​*Cl*​*HCO**[SIZE=8pt]3[/SIZE]*​WR 29384​7.5​124​131​20.5​19.5​1.7​2.3​4.7​124​Mine 28873​7.8​190​198​33​28​7​2​7​232​Average​7.65​157​164.5​26.75​23.75​4.35​2.15​5.85​178​​Ok would appear that I cannot insert a table but numbers are there if you can make sense of them​


so that's looking like you'll need to acidify your sparge water, and likely your mash water too:

Alkalinity - 190
Hardness - 198
Calcium - 33
Magnesium - 28
Sulphate - 7
Sodium - 2
Chloride - 7

Lactic acid is the way to do this. You could arguably use acidulated malt in the mash instead.

Have you got a water calculator spreadsheet? There is certainly room to move on calcium, sulphate and chloride so you should probably get your hands on some calcium sulphate (gypsum) and calcium chloride as well as the lactic acid.

Otherwise, you can try diluting it a little with distilled water. Not necessarily economical (Pureau from Coles at $10/10L) but might be ok in a small/normal batch size.


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## Adr_0

Adr_0 said:


> so that's looking like you'll need to acidify your sparge water, and likely your mash water too:
> 
> Alkalinity - 190
> Hardness - 198
> Calcium - 33
> Magnesium - 28
> Sulphate - 7
> Sodium - 2
> Chloride - 7
> 
> Lactic acid is the way to do this. You could arguably use acidulated malt in the mash instead.
> 
> Have you got a water calculator spreadsheet? There is certainly room to move on calcium, sulphate and chloride so you should probably get your hands on some calcium sulphate (gypsum) and calcium chloride as well as the lactic acid.
> 
> Otherwise, you can try diluting it a little with distilled water. Not necessarily economical (Pureau from Coles at $10/10L) but might be ok in a small/normal batch size.


I should clarify that darker beers (amber ales, porters, stouts) will be fine to mash as-is, but pale beers/pils/wheat will struggle to pull the pH down.


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## MHB

Your Bicarbonate is high enough to be a concern, Lactic or Phosphoric (I prefer lactic) in the sparge would be a must.
Ca and Mg are low so some salt additions would be a good idea but some acidification is a must for both mash and sparge water - especially for pale beers.
Read Braukaiser on RA, well put together and gives you a really good idea why the Bicarbonate is so important.
Must be some limestone under that there ground.
Mark


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## Bonenose

Have been messing around with brewers friend calculator, looking at gypsum for calcium and then salt for chloride ratio. Mash pH looks fairly good on the calculator as per previous posts need acid additions for sparge however


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## labels

You should read this and the following page.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph


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## Bonenose

Limestone actually fairly low here have seen bores that you could build walls with the water


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## Coodgee

I agree that acidifying sparge water is important, especially for lower gravity or lighter coloured beers. If you're doing a big 7% red IPA you might not notice much difference but if you did a 3.5% pale ale you would probably notice a big difference.


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## Jack of all biers

MHB said:


> Your Bicarbonate is high enough to be a concern, Lactic or Phosphoric (I prefer lactic) in the sparge would be a must.
> Ca and Mg are low so some salt additions would be a good idea but some acidification is a must for both mash and sparge water - especially for pale beers.
> Read Braukaiser on RA, well put together and gives you a really good idea why the Bicarbonate is so important.
> Must be some limestone under that there ground.
> Mark


Agree that the Ca is low, however at an average of 24ppm Mg his water source is sufficient in Mg and not low. Given pure DI water in a mash will produce about 70ppm Mg anyway, even that would fit in the 0-40 ppm Mg that is recommended.



Bonenose said:


> Have been messing around with brewers friend calculator, looking at gypsum for calcium and then salt for chloride ratio. Mash pH looks fairly good on the calculator as per previous posts need acid additions for sparge however


Keep at the Brewers Friend Calculator. I have consistently found it to provide a very accurate prediction of my calculated mash pH. The mash for my last brew was predicted by BF to be 5.36 and the measured was 5.38. This seems to happen again and again with this calculator. However, quality data in means quality data out. If you forget to add something to the calculator or the mash then you can only blame the data entry person/brewer (you).

BE CAREFUL of using salt to up your chloride levels. 50ppm (mg/L) is the recommended max. and anything above 150ppm will give a salty taste. Better to up the chloride levels to balance the sulphate levels with CaSO3 (gypsum) and CaCl (calcium chloride). Try calculate a Ca level of 130 ish and Cl and SO3 levels around the 90-100 mark each to get a really good balanced beer flavour. You can add a gram or 2 of salt to the boil to up the sodium if you want as it wont help the mash at all (non-iodised and without anti-caking agents please as the yeast won't like you if you throw that at them)



labels said:


> You should read this and the following page.
> 
> http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph


Agree with Labels. Read this and get a decent understanding of what's going on. When you're done reading that then read this https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge and get an even better understanding if you haven't already.


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## Bonenose

Awesome everyone, have been flat out so have not had a chance to do much more research but think I can see where I need to be going with my water. Definitely seeing the need for acid additions now and wondering how the hell did I miss calcium chloride when looking at additions. Anyway thanks everyone great info.

Cheers


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## kaiserben

I acidify my sparge water these days (use "Pure" 96% Phosphoric Acid).

I can't tell whether this has improved my beers or not, but I feel better for doing it :lol:


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## mtb

kaiserben said:


> I acidify my sparge water these days (use "Pure" 96% Phosphoric Acid).
> 
> I can't tell whether this has improved my beers or not, but I feel better for doing it :lol:


Careful of phosphoric kaiserben, it has a flavour to it. Lactic apparently has less flavour.


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## kaiserben

Your comment had me worried, but I did a quick google and Martin Brungard (Bru'n Water) recommends phosphoric as having less flavour impact than lactic. 

"Phosphoric acid is a very good choice for brewing use. It has the least flavor impact since there are already similar anions in the mash. Adding a few more does not alter the flavor. Lactic has a distinct taste that is certainly pleasant and desirable in some styles. The same can be said for sulfuric and hydrochloric. They are just more hazardous to handle. The whole issue of taste impact is contingent upon the amount of alkalinity you're having to deal with. If its a lot of alkalinity, then other forms of treatment are probably needed. "

Post # 8: here


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## mtb

Well f*ck me sideways.. as you were sir :lol:


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## fungrel

mtb said:


> Careful of phosphoric kaiserben, it has a flavour to it. Lactic apparently has less flavour.


I was also going to say that you have lactic and phosphoric mixed up. 

My own experiences back the statements from Martin, and i switched over last year to phosphoric.


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## Danscraftbeer

I feel blessed.


I'm on Melbourne water (Cardinia reservoir). Its pH 7.3 on tap and after my filter its pH 6. B)

So I don't add anything to the sparge water. Isnt that just farkn awesome?

Filter Brand is: Pure Water Systems. A filter cartridge is ~$130 It lasts one year. Check out the deets for scrutiny if needed.

I actually got the housing for free on a random phone call about local water quality. Believe it or not!


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## manticle

Be surprised and alarmed if anyone's water requires enough acid to actually taste whether it's lactic or phosphoric. Have used both, would use either again.


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## Danscraftbeer

True that. Check measurements to be tiny. 

I got me a little bottle of 96% Pure Phosphoric Acid and did the geeky experiments.
Its just tiny weeny amounts (like drops) make big amounts in a mass of water (~10 - 30l) mixed very well before testing. 
So use a good pH meter and get scientific rather than have any shot in the dark with this stuff.


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## Adr_0

Danscraftbeer said:


> I feel blessed.
> I'm on Melbourne water (Cardinia reservoir). Its pH 7.3 on tap and after my filter its pH 6. B)
> So I don't add anything to the sparge water. Isnt that just farkn awesome?
> Filter Brand is: Pure Water Systems. A filter cartridge is ~$130 It lasts one year. Check out the deets for scrutiny if needed.
> I actually got the housing for free on a random phone call about local water quality. Believe it or not!


Well aren't you lucky. 

How to you get to pH 6? Usually that would be due to residual acids from dechlorination, but you probably don't need to dechlorinate either.


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## Danscraftbeer

Adr_0 said:


> Well aren't you lucky.
> 
> How to you get to pH 6? Usually that would be due to residual acids from dechlorination, but you probably don't need to dechlorinate either.


That's a good question. Its the result I get from my filter. On my second cartridge now so 17 months and it is consistent.


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## manticle

Distilled water reacts with CO2 from atmosphere to become mildly acidic if I remember correctly - presume this might work similarly?


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## labels

I think what amazes me with the comments in this thread is the following:

How do you know you have to add acid? Have you actually measured the the pH of your mash - including during the sparge and if so did you use a relaible pH meter or one of the useless pieces of shit from Ebay?
Did you use an online calculator which has little basis in science whatsoever? especially not taking ino account the buffering capacity of the mash?
And further, do you actually know the buffering capacity of the mash??
Are you just assuming the higher pH of your water will automatically raise the pH of your mash and lautering? Or have you traken into account the natural mineral content of the water and it's ability to lower the pH of your mash?
How do you know what effect a slightly higher pH will have on your finished beer, have you done side-by-side experiments to know?

Seems to me your dabbling in alchemy. Out of all the things to worry about with brewing, I would put mash pH a long way down the list unless you're using really dodgy water - bore water for example that is really, really bad.


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## manticle

Anyone serious about water chemistry should measure mash pH at several points to get a feel for what is going on. Not every brew necessarily but enough times to get a real understanding.

Mash buffering capacity is less relevant when sparging - that's the point. Not really alchemy mate.


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## peteru

I think this topic is more about sparge water, rather than mash water. The pH of the water towards the end of a fly sparge is likely to have some effect. I'd guess that tannin extraction is the primary concern.


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## SBOB

labels said:


> I think what amazes me with the comments in this thread is the following:
> 
> How do you know you have to add acid? Have you actually measured the the pH of your mash - including during the sparge and if so did you use a relaible pH meter or one of the useless pieces of shit from Ebay?
> Did you use an online calculator which has little basis in science whatsoever? especially not taking ino account the buffering capacity of the mash?



while some (like I) dont utilise a pH meter at this stage, tools like Bru'n Water have been shown to pretty well predict the water calcs based on starting water profile and generic grain bill info

I personally think as long as you are consistent, and understand that these tools are just calculations, then its a good way to utilise water profiles and pH adjustments to move your brewing water in the right direction 

If you want to spend the $ on a pH meter, then yes, you will get more accurate results (or you might just confirm what things like Bru'n Water are predicting)


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## manticle

I'd be surprised to learn that the calculators aren't based on science too by the way, Labels. Maybe Martin can illuminate us on which mediaeval or gnostic script he bases his spreadsheet.


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## Jack of all biers

labels said:


> I think what amazes me with the comments in this thread is the following:
> 
> How do you know you have to add acid? Have you actually measured the the pH of your mash - including during the sparge and if so did you use a relaible pH meter or one of the useless pieces of shit from Ebay?
> Did you use an online calculator which has little basis in science whatsoever? especially not taking ino account the buffering capacity of the mash?
> And further, do you actually know the buffering capacity of the mash??
> Are you just assuming the higher pH of your water will automatically raise the pH of your mash and lautering? Or have you traken into account the natural mineral content of the water and it's ability to lower the pH of your mash?
> How do you know what effect a slightly higher pH will have on your finished beer, have you done side-by-side experiments to know?
> 
> Seems to me your dabbling in alchemy. Out of all the things to worry about with brewing, I would put mash pH a long way down the list unless you're using really dodgy water - bore water for example that is really, really bad.


Chapters 5 & 6 and Appendix B in "Water - A comprehensive Guide for Brewers" cover the whys and wherefores of Acid additions and science behind not only Sparge water acid additions, but the addition of different acids on flavours and/or calcium reduction in a very thorough way. Written by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski, but Appendix B is contributed by A.J. deLange whose research and additions to brewing science and understanding is enormous. It is a well researched and proofed (by Martin Brungard for one) and goes into the buffering powers of both the water and the mash in consideration of acid additions to sparge water. The whole book is worthy of reading for a full understanding, but I quote from pg 120 "Acidification of Mashing and Sparging Water";

_"...As the sparging water rinses the bed, the sugars and buffers are rinsed away and the pH shifts towards the pH of the sparging water. If the sparging water is alkaline, the mash pH will rise and the extraction of tannins, silicates and ash from the malt husks is more likely as it approaches a pH of 5.8...._
_...The easy solution is to stop sparging when the pH hits 5.8, or when the specific gravity falls below 1.008, and top up the kettle with hot liquor alone. This will only cause a small drop in efficiency while preventing significant off-flavors in the beer. However, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they say. *The better solution* is to acidity the sparge water to a pH in the mash target range, which should effectively prevent the pH of the mash from rising above the 5.8...The rise in mash pH at the end of the sparge is more common to lower-gravity paler styles where the buffering systems in the mash are weaker and/or more dilute. It can also occur in low-gravity darker styles where the melanoidin concentration (a buffer) is actually low despite the high color wort."_

The above section goes on to provide an example from Sierra Nevada Brewing & Co, where the procedures for mashing with standard salts versus mashing with double calcium levels versus brewing liquor acidified to pH 5.7. The resultant beers were tested and proofed by a panel of 38 trained members in a triangle test. The mash pH were 5.49 (standard salts), 5.38 (double calcium) and 5.30 (acidification of liquor). The results were that the end runnings of 5.91 (standard salts in water with no acidification) versus 5.83 (double their normal calcium levels with no acidification) versus 5.56 (acidification of liquor of 5.7). The subsequent triangle taste tests by the trained tasters statistically confirmed that the acidification of the liquor produced less astringency, harshness and was more acceptable.

Precipitation of calcium due to *phosphoric acid* is extensively covered also in Chapter 6 and Appendix B. The results were that A.J. deLange found that when phosphoric acid is used to acidify to the typical mash pH values (5.2-5.6) instead of 6.5 to 7 then the calcium retention is greater. This is due to a greater saturation limit for calcium at lower pH values, but (there's always a but  ) the total alkalinity also has to be taken into account as the higher the alkalinity the lower the calcium saturation. It becomes a balance and Labels is correct that one must know ones water quite well before playing with phosphoric acid at least. This only applies to phosphoric acid however and not the other commonly used acids.

My personal observations are with both rain and Adelaide mains water (of which Labels would be very familar) and I have thoroughly tested with a good pH meter (accurate to 0.01) that is calibrated every time it is used with all measurements conducted with 20-25C sample temps. I have tested water pH, mash pH (prior to and after salt and acid malt additions), first runnings & end runnings with untreated sparge water. I found that most often the end runnings did not go above the pH 6 level, but on occasion they did (pale grains used) and they always went above 5.8 (even with rain water at pH 6.4). Whilst Labels is right to be skeptical about adding acid willy nilly, the suggestion that doing so in any case is dabbling in alchemy is incorrect. 

It is recommended in the above book as a good insurance policy and since I have acidified my sparge water, the end runnings have come in lower than 5.8 (EDIT - the last brew end runnings was 5.51 measured. See below for mash pH).

As far as the question of the online calculators, well my personal experience is only with that of Brewers Friend. Brewers Friend post where they have gotten their information from regarding the maths used in the calculators. I have consistently found that the predicted mash pH has been so close to my resultant measurements that I am happy to use it as a very good way to test the recipe/salt additions prior to brewing. I still measure my pH at the various stages, but am happy knowing that the resultant pH will be within 0.1 of the prediction when formulating my recipe (my last predicted mash pH was 5.36 and the measured was 5.38).


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## MHB

Have used a few different acids over the years, I prefer Lactic. Mainly because something like 90% of the naturally occurring acidity in malt comes from lactic acid made by bacteria living on the malt. Making a small addition of something that is already there feels like a better choice.
The other concern I have always had is with the possibility of a reaction between Phosphoric Acid and Calcium, we add Ca to our mash/sparge/kettle to get two effects; the pH lowering effect of H+ being relaced when relatively insoluble Calcium Phosphate forms and precipitates (reducing the Ca in solution); the benefits of Ca on yeast health and flocculation in the following ferment.
Have to do some more study on the effect of Phosphoric and Calcium reactions.

Have concluded (and even understand) that there is a real science behind water chemistry, its farking complex!
So I just got a good pH meter, know what's in my water, add Ca to need and tweak the pH to where I want it.
Mark


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## mabrungard

The need to acidify your sparging water is entirely contingent on the alkalinity of the raw water. If your water source has little alkalinity (like distilled or RO water), then you may not need to acidify at all. Water with little alkalinity (less than 25 ppm), generally doesn't have to be acidified. But waters with high alkalinity does have to be acidified to neutralize that alkalinity. 

An important factor is that pH should not be used as the primary criterion for determining if your water is acidified enough. For example, a water with high alkalinity can be acidified to 5.8 and still have a lot more than 25 ppm alkalinity remaining, while a water like RO that is acidified to the same standard will have almost no alkalinity. It is important to understand that alkalinity remaining in your sparging water consumes some of the acidity that your mash has already produced. Its that remaining alkalinity that will drive your kettle wort pH up more than you would want. Alkalinity is the real criterion for sparging water treatment.

While phosphoric acid has one of the lowest taste impacts to beer, don't poo-poo the use of lactic acid. I strongly feel that the use of lactic acid in German and continental styles can be an important element in their taste. Using at least some lactic acid or acid malt in your brewing of those styles can produce a more authentic result. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water includes the capability to use multiple acids for your brew. Lactic acid can definitely be tasted by the time the lactate ion concentration reaches about 400 ppm. Keeping lactate well below that level is recommended. Using a portion of lactic and some other acid could help you moderate the effects of neutralizing your high alkalinity water and producing great beer flavor.


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## MHB

Just back of an envelope calculation 400ppm of lactic would give a pH of around 2.3, so no one would be adding anywhere near that sort concentration, Concentrations more like 1/100th as high would be more typical, 4ppm should give around 4.3pH in distilled water not the same in a wort.
So I wouldn't be too worried about getting anywhere near the flavour threshold when using lactic for pH adjustments.

Mark


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## Jack of all biers

Yes,but Lactic acid can be present in beers as a natural by-product of fermentation in the range of 50-300 ppm, so depending on the beer being produced and the water alkalinity being countered, it is possible to go over the 400 ppm without realizing it. Especially if the water is high in alkalinity. 

As an aside, I have nothing against Lactic acid and occasionally use it, via Acidulated malt, myself as a preference to Phosphoric acid, which I use to acidify my sparge water.


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## MHB

Are you sure yeast produces Lactic Acid, a bunch of other acids, sure but Lactic?
Mark


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## Jack of all biers

It is according to the Water book, who reference from _Briggs, et al., Malting and Brewing Science, Vol. 2, Chapmand and Hall, London, 1981_. 

I haven't read the source material myself, so it could mean in totality, including mashing, but the quote from the Water book is _"Lactic acid is reported to have a flavor threshold of about 400 ppm in beer (_referenced to the above book_). The flavor threshold can vary between tasters. Therefore, the 400 ppm threshold may not hold for all individuals. In addition, many beers typically have a low concentration of lactic acid (typically 50 to 300 ppm) naturally, from fermentation by-products (_again referenced to above book_). Therefore, it may not be possible to add less than 400 ppm of lactic acid to water for alkalinity reduction without flavor impact."_

It's funny, because when I just looked up Br'un water, as I remembered something similar there, I found the quotes to be very similar and both reference the same source.

From Br'un water
_4.3.4 Liquid Organic Acids such as Lactic and Acetic Acid can be used for alkalinity reduction and acidification. _
_Lactic Acid is readily available for brewing use, but it can produce a distinctive “tang” in the flavor profile at high concentration. The lactic acid flavor is typically characterized as smooth. It is a weak acid that can be somewhat safer to handle than other stronger acids. Lactic acid is reported to have a flavor threshold of about 400 ppm in beer (Briggs et al., 1981). The flavor threshold can vary between tasters. Therefore, the 400 ppm threshold may not hold for all individuals. In addition, typical beers (especially German beers) naturally have a low concentration of lactic acid (typically 50 to 300 ppm) from malting, fermentation, and production by-products (Briggs et al., 1981). Therefore, it may not be possible to add 400 ppm of lactic acid to water for alkalinity reduction, without flavor impact. Lactic acid is a monoprotic acid and it consumes 1 part bicarbonate per one part lactic acid. For these reasons, it appears that the maximum alkalinity neutralization that lactic acid could provide for brewing is about 100 to 350 ppm reduction in bicarbonate (82 to 287 ppm alkalinity reduction, as CaCO3) in the water. Lactic acid is quite stable and does not degrade appreciably when stored at room temperature. The shelf life of lactic acid stored at 80°C (176°F) is reported at over 80 years. (www.epa.gov/hpv/pubs/summaries/lactacid/c13462rs.pdf)_

EDIT - as I guessed, the quote from Br'un includes *malting, fermentation and production by-products, *so it is in totality, not just from fermenation, though it does include fermentation, which is interesting. I guess some lactate is produced in fermentation perhaps? Or perhaps the source just included soured beers, which makes sense.

2nd EDIT - Found this exert that leaves me wanting more info, but anyway, it states that yeast do produce some lactic acid.
pg 38 _Yeast - the practical guide to fermentation - White, Zainascheff 2010_
_"*Organic Acids*_
_During fermentation, yeast also produce varying levels of organic acids such as acetic, lactic, butyric, and caproic. In most fermenations, the concentrations produced are below the flavor threshold, which is usually a good thing."_

3rd EDIT - Is it possible that instead of all the Pyruvate being broken down by the yeast in the two step process using the enzyme pyruvate decarboxylase and alcohol dehydrogenase into ethanol and NAD+, that some of the pyruvate reacts with NADH and H+ which turns them into lactic acid and NAD+? 

Pyruvate + NADH + H(+) becomes Lactate + NAD(+). 

4th EDIT - However it is done, it appears that yeast do produce lactic acid during fermentation. It makes up some of the 5% of other by-products when CO2 and ethanol are produced from sugars (first paragraph of attachment)
View attachment J. Biol. Chem.-1948-Fales-1-8.pdf


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## Quokka42

I'll stick by my original comment, with a slight proviso. As someone pointed out, it was late at night: For most of us in Australia, which officially has some of the best water in the world (for purity and cleanliness, we often lack in calcium for certain styles, but that only matters in the ferment and you don't need much,) use your tap water - boiling or adding Campden tablets if necessary when chlorine is high.

Sparging is just rinsing wort from the mash, and maybe raising the temperature to stop enzymatic activity.

As for the acid argument, I have taken local advice and switched to mostly lactic, but haven't had problems with citric, phosphoric or lactic when kept below the recommended equivalent of 5% acidified malt.


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## MHB

JOAB
If your referring to the Cori Cycle, I think that's mostly internal to a cell.
The only way anything approaching a tastable amount of Lactic or any of the other organic acids mentioned to turn up in the beer would be for the yeast to be so stressed at be unable to effectively ferment the beer, the extra Lactic would I suspect be the least of your problems.

I know Lactic, Phosphoric, Sulphuric and even Hydrochloric Acids are used in commercial brewing, I prefer Lactic for a number of reasons. Among them is safety, Phosphoric isn't too scary, but Lactic is a lot safer, and as mentioned above its a natural part of beer and a hell of a strong buffer...

Try the various options and decide what works best for you.
Mark


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## Jack of all biers

MHB, I've edited my last post since your post above, but yes agree, the amounts would be below the taste threshold. Just answering the question.

I personally use lactic (via acidulated malt) in the mash and phosphoric as back up or for sparge water treatment, so I guess I sit on the fence with a hedged bet


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## eamonnfoley

mabrungard said:


> The need to acidify your sparging water is entirely contingent on the alkalinity of the raw water. If your water source has little alkalinity (like distilled or RO water), then you may not need to acidify at all. Water with little alkalinity (less than 25 ppm), generally doesn't have to be acidified. But waters with high alkalinity does have to be acidified to neutralize that alkalinity.
> 
> An important factor is that pH should not be used as the primary criterion for determining if your water is acidified enough. For example, a water with high alkalinity can be acidified to 5.8 and still have a lot more than 25 ppm alkalinity remaining, while a water like RO that is acidified to the same standard will have almost no alkalinity. It is important to understand that alkalinity remaining in your sparging water consumes some of the acidity that your mash has already produced. Its that remaining alkalinity that will drive your kettle wort pH up more than you would want. Alkalinity is the real criterion for sparging water treatment.
> 
> While phosphoric acid has one of the lowest taste impacts to beer, don't poo-poo the use of lactic acid. I strongly feel that the use of lactic acid in German and continental styles can be an important element in their taste. Using at least some lactic acid or acid malt in your brewing of those styles can produce a more authentic result. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water includes the capability to use multiple acids for your brew. Lactic acid can definitely be tasted by the time the lactate ion concentration reaches about 400 ppm. Keeping lactate well below that level is recommended. Using a portion of lactic and some other acid could help you moderate the effects of neutralizing your high alkalinity water and producing great beer flavor.



Just on the lactate threshold..... I have water that has about 150ppm of CaCO3 and low Calcium (~30), high chloride (~195), low sulfate (~25)

I have had limited success with this water for paler beers, needing about 4% acid malt or 6ml of lactic in a full volume mash (no sparging) to get a reasonable mash pH of about 5.5
I get a definite lactic flavour from this. Maybe in my case the Chloride is accentuating it because I didn't think that much lactic would be a problem if you are just eliminating alkalinity. 

I have taken to just using my water for dark beers which turn out great.


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## mabrungard

To neutralize 150 ppm alkalinity, lactic acid use should not be anywhere near most people's taste threshold. However, there are some that are super-tasters or are sensitive to its flavor. I see that the chloride is very high and I can also infer that the sodium is high too. This may not be ideal for all beer style brewing, but you have taken the correct approach in brewing the beers that your water works well for.


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## MHB

Quokka42 said:


> I'll stick by my original comment, with a slight proviso. As someone pointed out, it was late at night: For most of us in Australia, which officially has some of the best water in the world (for purity and cleanliness, we often lack in calcium for certain styles, but that only matters in the ferment and you don't need much,) use your tap water - boiling or adding Campden tablets if necessary when chlorine is high.
> 
> Sparging is just rinsing wort from the mash, and maybe raising the temperature to stop enzymatic activity.
> 
> As for the acid argument, I have taken local advice and switched to mostly lactic, but haven't had problems with citric, phosphoric or lactic when kept below the recommended equivalent of 5% acidified malt.



Have to disagree with your opinion of the role of Calcium in brewing.

It is one of the main pH reducing factors, Calcium reacts with malt phosphates forming insoluble Calcium Phosphate, leaving free Hydrogen ions (lowers the pH).
Calcium protects Alpha Amylase from heat damage.
Is important for the efficient operation of mash enzymes.
Reacts with malt Oxalates to reduce the chance of gushing, Calcium Oxalate crystals (beer stone) provides lots of nucleation points. As a minimum 4.5X more Ca should be available than Oxalates.
It is very important as part of the formation of break material in the kettle, helps to reduce unwanted protein and polyphenols.
Yes it is important for proper yeast health and flocculation, but that is far from all it does in brewing.

50-100 ppm is regarded as a minimum, my local water only has around 25ppm so my default position is to add 100ppm to all my water.
Mark


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## eamonnfoley

mabrungard said:


> To neutralize 150 ppm alkalinity, lactic acid use should not be anywhere near most people's taste threshold. However, there are some that are super-tasters or are sensitive to its flavor. I see that the chloride is very high and I can also infer that the sodium is high too. This may not be ideal for all beer style brewing, but you have taken the correct approach in brewing the beers that your water works well for.



Yep sodium is up around a max of 135. This could be more of a factor with the pale beers. Not sure if sodium reacts with lactate ? Was thinking about trying lime treatment and gypsum supplementation for the calcium lost.


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## MHB

Lime wont help you at all with Sodium, it is used to reduce temporary Ca hardness.
Sodium wont react with Lactate, (well not in a brewing environment)
If I were you I would be looking at diluting your water with something softer, even adding 1/3 to 1/2 purified water would make a significant difference. You might also look at a reverse osmosis system for your brewery, they are fairly affordable now.
Mark


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## Quokka42

MHB said:


> Have to disagree with your opinion of the role of Calcium in brewing.
> 
> It is one of the main pH reducing factors, Calcium reacts with malt phosphates forming insoluble Calcium Phosphate, leaving free Hydrogen ions (lowers the pH).
> Calcium protects Alpha Amylase from heat damage.
> Is important for the efficient operation of mash enzymes.
> Reacts with malt Oxalates to reduce the chance of gushing, Calcium Oxalate crystals (beer stone) provides lots of nucleation points. As a minimum 4.5X more Ca should be available than Oxalates.
> It is very important as part of the formation of break material in the kettle, helps to reduce unwanted protein and polyphenols.
> Yes it is important for proper yeast health and flocculation, but that is far from all it does in brewing.
> 
> 50-100 ppm is regarded as a minimum, my local water only has around 25ppm so my default position is to add 100ppm to all my water.
> Mark



Actually, I don't think we disagree all that much. Some beers such a Pilsners could probably be made with my local tap water boiled to remove chlorine, but I am actually adding salts to all of my ale recipes these days. I do not doubt any of the further information you have provided, forgive me for keeping things simple.


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## eamonnfoley

MHB said:


> Lime wont help you at all with Sodium, it is used to reduce temporary Ca hardness.
> Sodium wont react with Lactate, (well not in a brewing environment)
> If I were you I would be looking at diluting your water with something softer, even adding 1/3 to 1/2 purified water would make a significant difference. You might also look at a reverse osmosis system for your brewery, they are fairly affordable now.
> Mark



I want to try the lime for the alkalinity, not the sodium. I would like to try treating my water with lime before I go back to the hassle of producing RO water (which I've done in the past). Find the RO filters too slow.

Maybe the flavours of lactate and sodium just don't sit well together (speculation), if not reacting. Or maybe its just the sodium I am tasting in the pale beers.

Regards,

Eamonn


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## Adr_0

eamonnfoley said:


> Just on the lactate threshold..... I have water that has about 150ppm of CaCO3 and low Calcium (~30), high chloride (~195), low sulfate (~25)
> 
> I have had limited success with this water for paler beers, needing about 4% acid malt or 6ml of lactic in a full volume mash (no sparging) to get a reasonable mash pH of about 5.5
> I get a definite lactic flavour from this. Maybe in my case the Chloride is accentuating it because I didn't think that much lactic would be a problem if you are just eliminating alkalinity.
> 
> I have taken to just using my water for dark beers which turn out great.


So you have:
Calcium - 30ppm
Alkalinity - 130ppm
Sodium - 135ppm (up to?)
Chloride - 195ppm
Sulphate - 25ppm

Sounds like a great profile for porters and stouts.

What is your batch size? Although it's a little wasteful (packaging wise) and uneconomical, you could always get a few packs (10L and/or 5L) of Pureau from Coles/Woolies. Any idea what your chlorine levels are? If they are low you can possibly knock the carbon filter out of a typical 2/3 stage RO unit and just go straight to RO. You'd want to be confident your chlorine is very low though, probably 0.2-0.3ppm max. You could potentially set it up over a few few hours the night before, then again when you're cracking grain for example.

Calcium sulphate is probably the only salt you'd need on hand for other paler beers, but you'll never get a 'soft' mouthfeel by adding it or keeping your water the way it is. Soft water and mouthfeel is nice in wheat beers, blondes, pilsners - so getting an excellent version of these will need dilution of your salts.


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## eamonnfoley

Adr_0 said:


> So you have:
> Calcium - 30ppm
> Alkalinity - 130ppm
> Sodium - 135ppm (up to?)
> Chloride - 195ppm
> Sulphate - 25ppm
> 
> Sounds like a great profile for porters and stouts.
> 
> What is your batch size? Although it's a little wasteful (packaging wise) and uneconomical, you could always get a few packs (10L and/or 5L) of Pureau from Coles/Woolies. Any idea what your chlorine levels are? If they are low you can possibly knock the carbon filter out of a typical 2/3 stage RO unit and just go straight to RO. You'd want to be confident your chlorine is very low though, probably 0.2-0.3ppm max. You could potentially set it up over a few few hours the night before, then again when you're cracking grain for example.
> 
> Calcium sulphate is probably the only salt you'd need on hand for other paler beers, but you'll never get a 'soft' mouthfeel by adding it or keeping your water the way it is. Soft water and mouthfeel is nice in wheat beers, blondes, pilsners - so getting an excellent version of these will need dilution of your salts.



Yep, done all this stuff and happy with results. My initial query was around the impact of acid / sodium on beer taste when having to add say 4% acid malt to pale beers. Theory and wisdom says that much acid should not be perceptible. But it seems to be for me.


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## manticle

At the end of the day, it's about flavour in your beer. If you think you taste acid, back off on it till you can't


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