# Festival of sacrifice.



## Dave70 (23/10/14)

In honor of Abrahams willingness to butcher his own son according to the voices in his head, lets celebrate the the delightful holiday of Eid al-Adha. 

If this doesn't put a halt to live exports to the middle east or countries who demand slaughter according to islamic law / traditions / culture, I don't know what it will take. 

*Be warned, this is abhorrent footage* 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-22/anti-cruelty-rules-disregarded/5834644


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## Eagleburger (23/10/14)

Religious fanatics and animal rights activists. Two sides of the same coin.


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## Dave70 (23/10/14)

Eagleburger said:


> Religious fanatics and animal rights activists. Two sides of the same coin.


You don't need to be ideologically opposed to animal slaughter to see somethings drastically wrong here.


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## Mardoo (23/10/14)

Band Name!!!


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## wide eyed and legless (23/10/14)

Pre fatherhood I could shoot rabbits and other small game, after the birth of my first daughter, I underwent some sort of psychological change, I can now only shoot at targets and cannot bring myself to shoot a living animal, but though I cant do that I do often think their are some humans who don't respect other life be it animal or human, I think I could willingly put them down without a conscience.


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## Eagleburger (23/10/14)

I used to kill and butcher that which I caught and shot. Since my current missus does it , I have lost the stomach for it.


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## Eagleburger (23/10/14)

Dave70 said:


> You don't need to be ideologically opposed to animal slaughter to see somethings drastically wrong here.


Dead is dead fred


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## Diesel80 (23/10/14)

Pretty average footage that is for sure.
Don't we allow animals to be slaughtered in similarly barbaric ways in our own back yard for our religious citizens (of certain faith)?
Indeed we do....
[SIZE=small]"There are a small number of abattoirs in Australia that have been granted permission from the relevant State or Territory food authority to conduct religious slaughter without prior stunning – for either Halal or Kosher (Jewish slaughter) purposes. These ‘approvals’ are effectively exemptions to standard Australian slaughter practice. The proportion of animals slaughtered under these exemptions is very small, but nevertheless that any animals are slaughtered without stunning is of concern to the RSPCA." source http://kb.rspca.org.au/what-is-halal-slaughter-in-australia_116.html[/SIZE]

I can't really talk though, all my fish are basically killed the same way. Perhaps I can work on a more human approach. How do you stun a fish?

Cheers,
D80


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## tavas (23/10/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> Pre fatherhood I could shoot rabbits and other small game, after the birth of my first daughter, I underwent some sort of psychological change, I can now only shoot at targets and cannot bring myself to shoot a living animal, but though I cant do that I do often think their are some humans who don't respect other life be it animal or human, I think I could willingly put them down without a conscience.


You couldn't, which is why you're not running around the Middle East with a black flag.


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## wide eyed and legless (23/10/14)

Off topic.(Not really still dealing with animals)
I am sure I could but not under that black flag against it. But they don't need my help the Kurds have been giving their captives some torture before killing them, don't agree with the torture but agree with putting them down, I watched an interview with some ex American soldiers who are helping the Kurds they talk of eliminating the IS fighters, and on the subject in other American speak, the White house said that they will try and locate any hostages and if a rescue mission is not viable they will neutralise the situation.


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## jlm (23/10/14)

Diesel80 said:


> I can't really talk though, all my fish are basically killed the same way. Perhaps I can work on a more human approach. How do you stun a fish?


Getting more off topic but.......I keep a folding filleting knife in my pocket, if fish is a keeper, it gets whacked on the head with the heavy end of the folded knife nice and quick. Wade back to appropriate spot to bleed out fish, and photo if needed. Look, here's one I got after work last week:



Not really much to brag about but its been a ******* real slow start to season for me. 

So, yeah.....If the fish is making its way to the table, whack real hard on its head with something real hard. Same as stunning any sort of game and/or apprentice/human. Well......Apprentices aren't human. But they still stun the same before butchering.


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## wide eyed and legless (23/10/14)

I go fishing 2 or 3 times a week and it is not often I kill fish only when my wife has been getting on my back do I bring them home and that is the most humane method of killing, stun first that's not so hard for any species, though in the fishes case one good blow to the head is enough, or put your thumb in its mouth and pull back to break its spine.


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## simplefisherman (23/10/14)

Staying ot but for quick and humane fish dispatching, search for " iki-jime " it's the best. Shuts down the central nervous system and makes a huge difference in the fish quality. 
And in a pinch you can use a Phillips screwdriver.


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## wide eyed and legless (23/10/14)

I have seen a similar thing to that with crabs I think on River Cottage.
Getting back on topic, from the link which Dave 70 put up it seems to me the crowd were getting enjoyment from the suffering of the animals which makes it even worse, I would like to say don't export to those countries but the farmers need the money and the livestock would be purchased elsewhere. 
Educating them wouldn't work as they don't treat humans with any more respect as we saw the respect offered to those animals.
While in China I saw lack of compassion for the edible creatures but their own pets were treated with compassion, hard to work out how their logic works.


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## Eagleburger (29/11/14)

Another reason to get upset.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2852739/Nepal-devotees-sacrifice-thousands-animals-Hindu-ritual.html


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## Jimrtl81 (30/11/14)

I don't have a problem with how the animals were slaughtered in the first video, it is gruesome but not intentionally cruel.
I bet none of that meat was wasted.


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## Eagleburger (30/11/14)

Far more compassionate death than the rats get on a soya bean farm from rat poison. That can drag on for a week. A lot of the poor little bastards actually commit suicide if they can.


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## elcarter (30/11/14)

People are starving in that country and they pull that shit, I can't imagine what 300,000 buffalo would look like alive.

Not a fan of this religion thing.


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## jyo (30/11/14)

Ahh, religion.

Celebrating irrationality since eleventy ninety three.


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## manticle (30/11/14)

Twelfty


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## jyo (30/11/14)

You're right. Twelfty BD.


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## Bomber Watson (30/11/14)

Religions are a virus. 

Religions that dont allow beer/other alcoholic beverages are the worst ones....

Seriously, have a look at the general followers for all the major religions, the ones that arnt allowed to drink are the most irrational, cruel and violent. 

Cheers.


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## Eagleburger (30/11/14)

Religion is alright, actually pretty awesome. The heart of which is a code, plan, map or system to live by. You get confused or lost? Hey there is a map to get on track. Unsure of what is right or wrong? **** to easy, follow the code. Problem is people.

Because I am mono-syllabic, losing interest and my baby just crapped in the bath, I will just say the people externalize that which they feel inside. All their anger, bigotry, pride exudes from their mouth. Those on the path just laugh.


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## manticle (30/11/14)

'Cos no-one could figure out how to live without stories about magic fairies and sky ponies.


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## sp0rk (1/12/14)

Didn't you know morals cease to exist without religion?


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## Dave70 (1/12/14)

Eagleburger said:


> Problem is people.


Yep. But I still try to be optimistic anyway. 
Heres an interesting documentary about some people. With problems.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1cbpqt_hbo-questioning-darwin_tech


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## madpierre06 (2/12/14)

I guess it's the fault of the game of (insert appropriate code here) that their 'fans/followers' go to games and spit on people, attack them pre/post game, and generally behave in irrational, disgusting, violent and abhorrent behaviours with great fervour.


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## jyo (2/12/14)

Collingwood supporters?


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## Dave70 (2/12/14)

madpierre06 said:


> I guess it's the fault of the game of (insert appropriate code here) that their 'fans/followers' go to games and spit on people, attack them pre/post game, and generally behave in irrational, disgusting, violent and abhorrent behaviours with great fervour.


If supporting the game demands indoctrination into a bigoted and delusional mindset where the fans / followers pugnaciously assert that the laws of the universe and nature have been suspended to accommodate the rules of the game, specific, unalterable rules that must be vigorously and if need be violently upheld, and strictly the provenience_ their _team ONLY, then yes, I think its fair that the game shoulder some of the responsibility. 
Never attended a 'game' where the refs decisions extended to the fans before.


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## Eagleburger (2/12/14)

Rules only work when everyone follows them.


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## Dave70 (2/12/14)

National speed limit - 110 kph. Pretty clear cut.



Deuteronomy 23:1 - He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. Not so much.


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## wide eyed and legless (2/12/14)

I don't have a problem with people who wish to follow a religion of their choice, it is their right, the only problem I would have is if the followers of that religion start affecting me,I must say that the followers in the above documentary do not affect me, but the children
who are being taught one belief are being affected, surely a parent should be teaching both sides of the argument, Darwinism and creationism and it is then the child's choice of which is the more feasible of the two.

I suspect spOrks comment may have been tongue in cheek, but a moral code must have existed before the bible because it was written by mere mortals.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (2/12/14)

And there I was thinking this was about the animals :blink:


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## wide eyed and legless (2/12/14)

True Nev, this discussion is evolving, though I don't know how Collingwood got in there unless jyo is Eddie McGuire incognito.


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## Blind Dog (2/12/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> ...surely a parent should be teaching both sides of the argument, Darwinism and creationism and it is then the child's choice of which is the more feasible of the two.


No.

Firstly it's not Darwinism but evolution. Calling it Darwinism is a trick the religious right in the US use to suggest it is a belief founded on the ramblings of a mad Victorian with a massive beard

Anyway, evolution and whatever creation myth you pick are emphatically not two sides of the same argument. One is fatuous nonsense, the other a fastidiously researched, tested and refined scientific theory. And before anyone jumps on the 'it's just a theory bandwagon', so is gravity. A responsible parent would no more teach their child about creation than they would about fairies, leprechauns and unicorns


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## Online Brewing Supplies (2/12/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> True Nev, this discussion is evolving, though I don't know how Collingwood got in there unless jyo is Eddie McGuire incognito.


Dont you see , Eddie = GOD


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## peas_and_corn (2/12/14)

I'm just trying to get my head around the idea Darwin cane from Victoria


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## wide eyed and legless (2/12/14)

Blind Dog said:


> No.
> 
> Firstly it's not Darwinism but evolution. Calling it Darwinism is a trick the religious right in the US use to suggest it is a belief founded on the ramblings of a mad Victorian with a massive beard
> 
> Anyway, evolution and whatever creation myth you pick are emphatically not two sides of the same argument. One is fatuous nonsense, the other a fastidiously researched, tested and refined scientific theory. And before anyone jumps on the 'it's just a theory bandwagon', so is gravity. A responsible parent would no more teach their child about creation than they would about fairies, leprechauns and unicorns


I was using the arguments and wording used in the documentary, and a responsible parent who would not let her children go to school because they taught evolution, so was teaching her children at home and just teaching them the scriptures.


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## Blind Dog (2/12/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I was using the arguments and wording used in the documentary, and a responsible parent who would not let her children go to school because they taught evolution, so was teaching her children at home and just teaching them the scriptures.


then my apologies to you sir. Can't watch the video for some reason so didn't recognise the references


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## pcmfisher (3/12/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I was using the arguments and wording used in the documentary, and a responsible parent who would not let her children go to school because they taught evolution, so was teaching her children at home and just teaching them the scriptures.


And one of the fundamental teachings would have been something like - "If you don't believe in our magical invisible sky pixie, you will burn in eternal Hell." 

Very effective way to instil anything into young receptive minds. Disgraceful really.

Good news (or bad news for Religion) is it is getting harder to insulate children from the real world these days.
The internet will eventually be the demise of religion, or at least put the few insisting devotees into the whack job category of today's flat earthers.


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## Eagleburger (3/12/14)

Its nice to see that brand loyality promotion has evolved somewhat.


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## wide eyed and legless (3/12/14)

The same documentary that Dave 70 linked is on showcase (Foxtel) at the moment, there must be a reason that those believers in creationism think the way they do, I can understand the prostitute/ crack addict who believes she was saved by God but the others, its like they want an imaginary something or someone to give them the confidence to get through the rigours of everyday life.
It was good to see them concede that there were dinosaurs on earth but laughable to say they were here along with man living side by side and Noah and Joan putting them on the Arc.


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## Bribie G (3/12/14)

The problem with being a Christian is that when you die you have to spend the rest of eternity surrounded by people like Jehovahs Witness door knockers.


And you don't have the option of committing suicide to get away from them or getting pissed to avoid them. Also harp music makes me cringe.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (3/12/14)

Not picking but I love how some are opposing animal cruelty/mistreatment yet state they fish.

I don't consider a metal hook through the lip a regular part of any animals day, if the intent is just for amusement and not food. 2c


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## Bribie G (3/12/14)

It's all part of a cultural mindset thing.

That ain't livin........

Boating, camping, ringbarkin trees, tearing down fragile sand dunes with your four whu-heel droyve.... and killing fish....... now *that's* livin.


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## Dave70 (3/12/14)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Not picking but I love how some are opposing animal cruelty/mistreatment yet state they fish.
> 
> I don't consider a metal hook through the lip a regular part of any animals day, if the intent is just for amusement and not food. 2c


Catch and release for sport is simply cruel. 
Thats why stab everything I catch to death.


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## jimi (3/12/14)

Dave70 said:


> Catch and release for sport is simply cruel.
> Thats why stab everything I catch to death.


Binding a sheep’s legs and slitting its throat is the way we butchered all our sheep. It's also the only way of butchering I've seen any other farmer use. It isn't something enjoyable but families have to eat. It's not as instant as the bolt to the head or electric shock that abattoirs use, but you can only use what you have available.
Judging people for their religious beliefs to carry out a practise popular amongst those without religious beliefs would seem stupid and hypocritical wouldn't it. Especially since the purpose of the Feast of Sacrifice (better translation) is essentially alms giving and about donating to the needy. The last side of beef I bought was $800 for about 100kg, ergo a full beast is about $1600 here in Australia. Donating two thirds of an animal to others and the needy, as they do is no small offering. I wonder what things would be like if our Christmas meals include a similar gesture?
The skinning of dogs alive in China would seem more abhorrent to me, but there's no religion in practise there, so that's not the target we want is it?


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## Blind Dog (3/12/14)

Dave70 said:


> Catch and release for sport is simply cruel.
> Thats why stab everything I catch to death.


Just never play kabaddi


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## Dave70 (4/12/14)

jimi said:


> Binding a sheep’s legs and slitting its throat is the way we butchered all our sheep. It's also the only way of butchering I've seen any other farmer use. It isn't something enjoyable but families have to eat. It's not as instant as the bolt to the head or electric shock that abattoirs use, but you can only use what you have available.
> Judging people for their religious beliefs to carry out a practise popular amongst those without religious beliefs would seem stupid and hypocritical wouldn't it. Especially since the purpose of the Feast of Sacrifice (better translation) is essentially alms giving and about donating to the needy. The last side of beef I bought was $800 for about 100kg, ergo a full beast is about $1600 here in Australia. Donating two thirds of an animal to others and the needy, as they do is no small offering. I wonder what things would be like if our Christmas meals include a similar gesture?
> The skinning of dogs alive in China would seem more abhorrent to me, but there's no religion in practise there, so that's not the target we want is it?




Granted slitting a sheep's throat or contorting it to face Mecca prior to the act makes little difference, but I'm sure jimi, you don't slaughter your animals in such an amateurish and traumatic style as the keystone cop butchers in the video. Neither did your livestock just endure 11,000 km on a stinking, sweltering, overcrowded ship. As for feeding the poor,(ironically, most likely impoverished due to the fact their county is constantly embroiled in religious war) what about the other 364 days of the year? _Eid al-Adha _is a token gesture at best. 

Bottom line is the whole exercise is unnecessary in the first place. And illegal. Its all here. 

http://www.rspca.org.au/campaigns/live-export/live-export-facts


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## pcmfisher (4/12/14)

Dave70 said:


> Granted slitting a sheep's throat or contorting it to face Mecca prior to the act makes little difference, but I'm sure jimi, you don't slaughter your animals in such an amateurish and traumatic style as the keystone cop butchers in the video. Neither did your livestock just endure 11,000 km on a stinking, sweltering, overcrowded ship. As for feeding the poor,(ironically, most likely impoverished due to the fact their county is constantly embroiled in religious war) what about the other 364 days of the year? _Eid al-Adha _is a token gesture at best.
> 
> Bottom line is the whole exercise is unnecessary in the first place. And illegal. Its all here.
> 
> http://www.rspca.org.au/campaigns/live-export/live-export-facts


Not the best link I think.

You might as well have gone http://greens.org.au/


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## Dave70 (4/12/14)

pcmfisher said:


> Not the best link I think.
> 
> You might as well have gone http://greens.org.au/


Ok.

Here's a link thats far better and far worse all at once.

http://www.peta.org.au/


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## Eagleburger (4/12/14)

Some of the most generous, tolerant and generally exceptional homo sapiens a re deeply and proudly religious.


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## StalkingWilbur (4/12/14)

Yeah. And some of the worst.


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## StalkingWilbur (4/12/14)

Ideologies are dangerous at best. They discourage thinking and promote hate. 

If you need a book to tell you right from wrong and the threat of hell to keep you behaving, you're probably a **** anyway.


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## Dave70 (4/12/14)

Eagleburger said:


> Some of the most generous, tolerant and generally exceptional homo sapiens a re deeply and proudly religious.


True, Except for the tolerance bit. 
But that's a testimony to their humanity, not their faith.


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## manticle (4/12/14)

Eagleburger said:


> Some of the most generous, tolerant and generally exceptional homo sapiens a re deeply and proudly religious.


And some atheists and agnostics are arseholes.
Some priests rape kids. Some don't. Stalin was a psychopathic tyrant.

Religion didn't make them good or bad, any more than their trousers did. 

You want to to believe in pixie dust mate you go for it but don't pretend it's necessary for the prevention of cuntiness.


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## Eagleburger (4/12/14)

manticle said:


> You want to to believe in pixie dust mate you go for it but don't pretend it's necessary for the prevention of cuntiness.


I have experienced the enlightenment of pixie dust. Dont think it stopped me being a ****.


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## paulyman (4/12/14)

Blind Dog said:


> No.
> 
> Firstly it's not Darwinism but evolution. Calling it Darwinism is a trick the religious right in the US use to suggest it is a belief founded on the ramblings of a mad Victorian with a massive beard
> 
> Anyway, evolution and whatever creation myth you pick are emphatically not two sides of the same argument. One is fatuous nonsense, the other a fastidiously researched, tested and refined scientific theory. And before anyone jumps on the 'it's just a theory bandwagon', so is gravity. A responsible parent would no more teach their child about creation than they would about fairies, leprechauns and unicorns



Agree. But, Evolution does not strictly deal with creation just how species change over time. Abiogensis deals with how life formed from non-life. Don't mean to be picky, but if I'm not the Creationist nuts will, not that I think any creationist nuts are frequenting this forum.

Also, the biggest hurdle scientists and the science literate face is the misconception amongst the general community as to just what we mean by theory.


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## jimi (4/12/14)

StalkingWilbur said:


> Ideologies are dangerous at best. They discourage thinking and promote hate.
> If you need a book to tell you right from wrong and the threat of hell to keep you behaving, you're probably a **** anyway.


Is 'ideologies' the word youre looking for here? How do you have a society or for that matter a political system without ideologies?


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## Blind Dog (4/12/14)

jimi said:


> Is 'ideologies' the word youre looking for here? How do you have a society or for that matter a political system without ideologies?


It's an odd word. AFAIK it arose in the French Revolution and simply meant the study of ideas as a science in itself, but fairly soon became a pejorative term. Modern usage seems to encompass the pejorative sense, as seemingly used here, a wider usage to encompass a system of institutions, government and society in general, and a strongly held idea or belief. Thus a Jihadist, a democrat and a humanist pacifist all adhere to an ideology, but its likely the word would be used differently to describe each, and perhaps not at all for the last 2 in our society.

(Edit, fat fingers)


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## Dave70 (5/12/14)

jimi said:


> Is 'ideologies' the word youre looking for here? How do you have a society or for that matter a political system without ideologies?


Ideologies are fine so long as they remain dynamic and open to correction, revision and improvement, as in the spirit of good science. Dogmatism is where you run into strife, and unavoidable when a society's core beliefs are founded on un alterable texts and final revelations and / or megalomaniacal political types. I cant help but think of the US second amendment here. Perhaps in 1791 you _may_ have had valid argument for every man and his dog to possess an armory, but you'd be on thin ice trying to justify civilian ownership of assault rifles in 2014. But it persists. Is it making society a happier, safer place? If the answer is no, well?
In summery, people are credulous ******* idiots with a heard mentality.


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## pcmfisher (5/12/14)

Dave70 said:


> Ideologies are fine so long as they remain dynamic and open to correction, revision and improvement, as in the spirit of good science. Dogmatism is where you run into strife, and unavoidable when a society's core beliefs are founded on un alterable texts and final revelations and / or megalomaniacal political types. I cant help but think of the US second amendment here. Perhaps in 1791 you _may_ have had valid argument for every man and his dog to possess an armory, but you'd be on thin ice trying to justify civilian ownership of assault rifles in 2014. But it persists. Is it making society a happier, safer place? If the answer is no, well?
> In summery, people are credulous ******* idiots with a heard mentality.


Yes, it should be renamed the second commandment. But wait, that would be changing it.


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## contrarian (5/12/14)

Having lived in a predominantly Muslim country for 2 years I think there are some massive generalisations about religious people going on here. While in Australia freedom of religion exists and for many people it is a personal choice to be religious regardless of their parents and families this is not how religion is perceived in many parts of the world. I was in Bangladesh and your religion is something you are born into not something you put on like a pair of pants.

Like in all religions there are some extremely devoutly religious individuals, some than are fundamentalist and dogmatic and others that, like most people in the world, want to live a peaceful life, have the opportunity to work and support their families and provide them with a slightly better life in terms of opportunity than what they had for themselves. To assume that everyone who identifies with a religion falls into one cohesive group of beleivers in unicorns and pixie dust is a massive over simplification of the situation. 

To single out a religious festival to label millions of people as cruel and barbaric is a bit of a stretch. I am finding the build up to Christmas this year absolutely abhorrent. A frenzy of people spending money they don't have on absolute junk, destined for landfill and produced in developing countries under conditions that are inhumane.

This has turned into a bit of rant but I guess my point is that there's a lot of things going on in the world that are fucked up, money and power are central to all of them and religion is side show.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (5/12/14)

Well said, all ill add is thank **** we have beer to forget about all the nonsense/fuckedupery.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (5/12/14)

Notice how I thanked ****, not god *wink wink*


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## Dave70 (8/12/14)

contrarian said:


> To single out a religious festival to label millions of people as cruel and barbaric is a bit of a stretch.


Who's labeling millions of people as cruel and barbaric? 

I visited Spain once - In Spain they slaughter bulls for entertainment - therefore, every Spaniard is cruel and barbaric. Silly isn't it?
However, its impossible not to notice that A, the practice is expressly a Spanish tradition, and B, that a farmer who breeds Miura bulls may want to think twice before loading them on a ship bound for Basque country.
If he has the beasts humane treatment at heart that is.


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## contrarian (8/12/14)

Wasn't referring specifically to your post, just the general sentiment of the thread an a significant number of posts making sweeping generalizations about religious groups that cover millions of people.


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