# Summer Ale - First AG - 3V System



## shaunous (24/11/13)

Arvo Men,
If all goes well tomorrow, depending on family issues I want to do a verison of Ross's NSSA.

My twist is below, let me know if this'll taste like shit, or not be a real summer quaffer at least.
Im doing a double batch to pump up the volume over the hot season.

Using tank water and don't want to get into water chem on my first AG.

I do have many other hops, but not enough of the NS 20g, or Cascade 70g (These 2 being probably the best option)

Hops are 3-5 year old, frozen the whole time, should I add more, or not worry about it for the first brew?

Mash water volume 20L, ok?
Start mash recirc after 10mins, continue until finished, ok?

Whilfloc tablet with 10mins to go in boil, even though i'll be adding an aroma addition for 20mins after kettle has cooled, ok?

*Recipe Specs*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 40.0
Total Grain (kg): 8.557
Total Hops (g): 220.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (°P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 5.7 (EBC): 11.2
Bitterness (IBU): 39.1 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 75
Boil Time (Minutes): 90
*Grain Bill*
----------------
7.855 kg Maris Otter Malt (91.8%)
0.702 kg Rye Malt (8.2%)
*Hop Bill*
----------------
80.0 g Fuggles Pellet (5.1% Alpha) @ 80 Minutes (Boil) (2 g/L)
40.0 g Fuggles Pellet (5.1% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
40.0 g Fuggles Pellet (5.1% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
60.0 g Fuggles Pellet (5.1% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma) (1.5 g/L)
*Misc Bill*
----------------
Single step Infusion at 64°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 18°C with Safale US-05
*Notes*
----------------
60gm 0 min = added 10 mins after flame out & steeped for 20 mins before chilling.


Thanks in advance.

Shaun


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## Yob (25/11/13)

it all a little confusing TBH

3l per kg is generally a good liquor to grist ratio

recirc after mash in

Whirfloc @ 10 is generally ok.

das alot of Fuggles...


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## carpedaym (25/11/13)

I've also noticed in English Pale Ale recipes (which obviously use English-style hops) that late hopping rates are usually a half of something with American hops. 

What other hops do you have on hand? Mixing up your NS and cascade would work for sure. You could always bitter with something neutral (if you have it), meaning you just need 113g of flavour/aroma additions, of which you already have 90g, if I've understood you correctly (20g NS + 90g Cascade).

I've not even tasted something with rye, so can't comment on that substitute.


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## shaunous (25/11/13)

About to finish mashing and start the 90min boil.

Figured in the end i'll just stick with the fuggles, at least i'll know what they taste like on their own :unsure:

Only have 70g cascade and 20 NS.

Got a heap of other, but probably none that'd suit.

So far so good, brought the total mash volume to 25L, and my sparge arm is just under water/wort. I reckon I could get away with a little less water for a double next time.


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## JB (25/11/13)

Good luck Shaunous, look forward to further updates.

I made a brew with rye, I loved it & recommend the recipe: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/1434-lord-nelson-citra-cascading-out-of-this-galaxy-pale-ale/


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## shaunous (25/11/13)

Im not sure if the Topic Title says what I meant, I didn't mean my first AG on a 3V system, I meant its my first AG ever, and im using a 3v system. Hence the question and so forth.

I've changed the Aroma addition to 24g NS and 56g Cascade. Its still an hour away in the boil to be added, so if this sounds like a bad idea, let me know and i'll just go back to Fuggles.

I figured them 3 would work ok together with rye, having said that I've never done a rye.

ALSO, when looking for the MO, I found a 1/4 bag of wheat that I didn't even know about, so I could have near done the NSSA anyway :unsure:


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## shaunous (25/11/13)

*Well todays wrap up.*

Output was a mere 26L
Post-Boil Gravity was 1.044

Im guessing my sparge didn't draw as much as it should have, the bed was probably 3in under the top of the liquid the whole time, and I completely drained the mash's original 25 Lt into the kettle. and rinsed another 26L around the same 64*c through it, again the water level come up higher then the bed, until it was obviously all drained off. So im not sure, the 'Mash Master gauges seem to be incorrect', it was reading 62-63*c the most of the mash, after reading 61*c for the first 15mins. I checked with my digi thermo(cheap Ebay) which was spot on several weeks ago and it read the correct 64-66*c, so again maybe it wasn't hot enough to break all the sugars out. I should have sparged with a lot hotter water also, yes??

I recirculated the entire time of the mash also, Mash Tun draws from under the dome and pumps back up on top into a basic T sparge arm (needs modding so its ends are capped and has many little holes along it)
When doing single batches this arm would be out of the liquid, for future uses when doing double batches, shoul I raise it so it also out, and maybe up the flow rate of the pump so the liquid it only just on the top of the bed??

Pre-boil gravity was 1.028, which again was to low, but I figured it would have come up alot higher after boil and hop additions.

I need a pre-chiller before the cooler, temperature drop was only 2*c every 5-6mins, I never physically witnessed what one would call a 'cold break'.

After taste testing what went into the fermenter, it tastes ok, real bitter after taste, but I seem to get that in most of my home brew's lately, maybe its my taste buds after being in intensive care hooked up to heavy drugs for a couple of months just recently :huh: . I may be boiling to wildly or something, I used a fairly heavy rolling boil.

I need a decent grain bucket, I didn't realize how much grain physically 8kgs is, its a lot of 10l pots worth transferring to the mill :lol:

I need to set my mill, whats the norm?, I thought it was around 1.5mm, mine didn't wanna do nuttin at that, so I put it out just under 2mm, and ran the grain through twice.

Havnt pitched the yeast yet, still waiting for the wort to drop down to 18*c, its up around 26*c when it exited the cooler. Will throw 2 12g packets of US-05.

I also need to engrave volume markings into the kettle, probably wont need them once i've used the rig a few times, but while im beginning it would be handy to know how much is evaporating and whats left in the kettle to go to the fermenter.

For future brews, should a beginner do a protein break every batch, low and high, or maybe just a high one, to get used to doing it, is it ok to do on all brews?, or will it wreck certain grains being held at the 72*c. Im cool with doing a high temp break, but the low side may be a PITA with a gravity fed tun, especially doing doubles into a 50l mash tun, singles may be ok.

Anyway, thanks for reading my dribble :lol:

Shaun


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## shaunous (25/11/13)

Well if the beer tastes like shit, at least the eggs will be sweet.




Tried some on this lil' guy, not a big hit.


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## fcmcg (25/11/13)

shaunous said:


> *Well todays wrap up.*
> 
> Output was a mere 26L
> Post-Boil Gravity was 1.044
> ...


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## manticle (26/11/13)

Onya for having a go.

It's late so hopefully I'll remember to come back another time and offer some pointers from my experience but firstly I will say:

PLEASE - if there are any hops near your dog offering, be really careful. Hops are toxic for some breeds of dog - very toxic.

Hopefully that's not what you did or intended but worth pointing out for anyone who reads the thread.

I'm presuming just mash (as per the chickens)?


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## shaunous (26/11/13)

I was aiming for 40L, going for a double to stock up for summer drinking, 26L is not quite 40L is it h34r:

Boiled for 90mins, yeh.
Had 50L in the boiler at pre-boil, around about that anyway, had 52L all up going through the mash, so my loss to lines and grain soak could probably well have been a fair bit more than that. Hence why i'll engrave levels into the inside of the kettle, for learning purposes.

The mill is a MonsterMill MM2, when I ran the second crack through, there was plenty of white in it, but yes, probably an illusion, I may have to somehow free up the lazy wheel, its a little stiff, when I had it around the 1.5mm make it wouldnt even let grain come though, the driven wheel just bounced the grain around the gap, even will a full hopper of 2.5-3kg of grain in it.

My strike temp from the HLT to the Tun was 74*c, and after adding the initial 20L that dropped down to 61*c, so I fired up the tun again and sent 5l of 80*c water which brought the temp up to correct mash.
As you said I never had a hot enough sparge go through.

I've checked over my notes last night and done temp corrects on the gravity readings, they have come a little better, but still not good enough.
Pre-Boil - 1.035
Post Boil - 1.044

Thanks for replying Ferg.


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## shaunous (26/11/13)

manticle said:


> Onya for having a go.
> 
> It's late so hopefully I'll remember to come back another time and offer some pointers from my experience but firstly I will say:
> 
> ...


Didnt give him any hop material Manticle, only a taste of spent grain, he didnt like it. His just recently survived Pavo with no treatment, so im guessing Hops is nothing to him now  Thanks for the word up though, didnt realise it'd do anything to them. Our cattle dogs eat the guts out of dead rotting Roo's when im not looking so there stomachs are probably a bit more tolerant than the usual house dog :blink:

Up at 1am on AHB, to much coffee?


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## manticle (26/11/13)

No coffee. Just struggle to sleep before midnight and often later although once I'm there I sleep right through the night most nights.

Fuggles will give a very different beer (presuming it is UK fuggles - I'm not familiar with NZ) as it is quite earthy - described as mushroom, cigar or tobacco like by some.

For your mash water, go roughly 2.5-3L per kg of grain ratio, assume mash will absorb 1-1.1L of water, add deadspace (what remains behind in the tun after draining) then subtract that from your preboil volume (working backwards from desired final volume minus boiloff) and that amount should be your sparge volume.

While I'd generally think avoiding water chem for your first is probably a good KISS principle, if you are using mineral free/calcium free tank water, you may need to brush up on it sooner rather than later.

There are some brewers who make dog biscuits from spent grain but as you have chooks, you will put it to good use.


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## fcmcg (26/11/13)

Got this link for you bloke....
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/46540-monster-mill-what-gap/


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## shaunous (26/11/13)

Well sounds like i've made myself some kinda creation here. I'll report back on post fermenter tasting. But before then I better put another brew down this sunday, incase this 26ltrs is terrible.

Theses chooks will eat anything, its great. And the eggs just keep popping out, that grain will last them 3-4 days, then I better throw in some laying pellets 

Cheers for the advice and links men 

Will report back.

Shaun.


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## [email protected] (26/11/13)

Wow your chooks are fairly restrained. Our 9 chooks will tear through 6 kg of spent grain in less than a couple of hours. The eggs are great though, you don't realise how good until you go away somewhere and eat commercial eggs.

Cheers,

Andrew.


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## shaunous (26/11/13)

Yeh I know, have scrambled egg's ALOT from our chooks and thought nothing of it, had eggs from a cafe at coffs on saturday and realised how much better mine are.

Nah, my 6 chickens and the rooster were still going at lunchtime today, but I suppose that only 24hrs to be fair, i keep getting my days mixed up, i'll check again tomorrow arvo, we lock them in overnight so the grain just sits on the ground getting all manky like


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## [email protected] (26/11/13)

Ahh, ours stay out in the run at night, the neighbours all have dogs and we have two as well, so foxes have not been a problem. The chooks run is 25 m X 8 m and doubles as the vege patch. We fence off the vege beds when they are in use and open them up for the chooks to turn over and fertilise when fallow.


Cheers,

Andrew


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## shaunous (27/11/13)

I have 9 cattle dogs tied up down one side of ours, but it's just been habit since I built the pen to lock them up at night. 

I've never seen a fox here, and trust me I do a shitload of spotlighting, but we do gets wild dogs every now and then.

My run is fairly big to, has 2 apple tree's, a lemon tree, plum tree, mandarin tree, finger lime tree, massive china pear hanging over one side, and my personal favourite a 100+ year old grape vine! which I saved a few years ago and have seen cloned 4 times in other spots. Most of the tree's are young other then the grape, orange, china pear and plum but are spaced accordingly as permanent.

I might start letting them out at night and see if they lay better, only getting on average 4 eggs a day and all nesting in the one box, even though I've built them 12. Fence is 6ft but is only chicken wire. Original farm chicken pen was built like a castle, but the old man bulldozed it for a shed.


Why the Fuk am I awake past midnight talking about chickens????


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## manticle (27/11/13)

Because chickens are awesome. I don't have any of my own but next door neighbour and a couple of close relatives do and I get more eggs than myself or my partner can eat.

Totally different to commercial (even organic free range commercial), haven't bought eggs in years.


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## shaunous (27/11/13)

Haha, suppose they are awesome.

Next in the bird family will be Quails, grandfather in-law breeds them and eats them heaps so his keen to pass on his legacy of breeding and eating ground birds to me. Wouldn't mind the annoying old Guinea Fowls for entertainment either.


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## manticle (27/11/13)

Guinea fowls are great just because of their squeaky wheel sound. Never eaten one but had plenty of quail. Small, fiddly and not a lot of meat but damn delicious. Like langoustine* in that regard - pain to prepare but worth the effort.


*Not like langoustine in any other way.


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## shaunous (27/11/13)

You should see the grandfather in-laws backyard in town, his got a little space in the middle for a clothes line, taken up the rest is cages and cages of quail, and in his shed is incubators for quail eggs, hundreds of the fuckers. 

Anyway, back on topic! Haha

I've worked out I lose about a 1l of wort on transfer to the kettle' and kettle to the fermenter (my set-up has the cooler in the middle so the wort goes through it to the kettle and also when I'm recirculating the kettle to cool I get what's in the lines back, but again the last bit is always there). 
The other day there was close to 2l in the bottom of the kettle that was all hops material that's not worth transferring. 
and you reckon I should account for about a litre of Loss in soakage in the spent grain, would I double this to 2l for a double batch?
So about 4-5l gone from the fermenter before boiling?

I now have to work out my evaporation rates.


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## mkstalen (27/11/13)

For your first AG you've certainly jumped in the deep end crushing your own grain, using a recirc mash that's lots of variables to consider.

Can you better describe your rig?

What's your kettle powered by? Electric what wattage? gas?

My kettle is a 40L pot with twin 2400W elements, and I get an evaporation rate of about 14% over 60 minutes.

Are you using any kind of brewing software for your calculations? Most of them have variables for evap rates, loss to trub, chiller, cooling etc etc.


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## shaunous (28/11/13)

I dabbled with brew mate, but I need to custom my figures in it obviously, which I don't know, or didn't know as it was my first brew.

My set up is a 3v system, HLT is heated by gas, and gravity fed to Mash Tun, custom dome bottom with recirc, my kettle is an 18gal keg which is also gas fired.


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## manticle (28/11/13)

shaunous said:


> and you reckon I should account for about a litre of Loss in soakage in the spent grain, would I double this to 2l for a double batch?


Doesn't matter whether double or single - the rate is the same. Approx 1 L per kilo of grain so obviously more total if there is more total grain but the ratio is the same. Only need to calculate this once - after the mash, the grain is theoretically saturated and won't take in any from the sparge.

Remember for boiloff/evaporation - if you calculate that you lose 10 L per hour in a 30 L preboil volume batch, you will still lose 10 L per hour in a 60 L pre-boil volume batch (provided the gas/heat is the same and you are using the same kettle, etc).

The above looks good for loss calcs.

I don't have HERMS set up so I'm not the best person to answer but I know some people do recirc the whole way and get crystal clear wort.

I always mashout - not for efficiency but because I step mash to control the profile so the mash-out fixes that profile in place (enzymes are denatured by the mash out). For my mash out, I hit 78 for 10.


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## shaunous (28/11/13)

Arrrrrrrr ok I didn't read you right, 1l per kg of grain. Gotcha.


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## shaunous (28/11/13)

Right0, so I'm into my mash process which is normally 60mins, during that mash process should I recirculate the entire time I'm mashing, as this is what I thought would be better (same theory as pump over on red wine during maceration), as long as that temp doesn't get below 64*c, or worst case 61*c.

OR having read a little here, some people don't do this, they only recirc to sparge, even though the capability is there to do it the entire time, WHY?

Why do people not mash-out? You have to/should raise the temp of the mash with heated water for a good sparge anyway, not much less than 74*c but no higher than 77*c. Why not hold the mash process an extra 10mins if it's going to give you better efficiency? 

Just making sure I'm understanding this all properly before my 2nd AG brew this Sunday.

If I were to start my mash with 2.5 litres of water to the kilo of grain, mash for the 60mins recirculating the entire time, before I get to the 60min mark I've heated the water in my HLT again to a point that it'll hit the grain and stay at 74*c, let that sit/recirculate a further 10mins. THEN transfer to the kettle where I'll add enough water again to be left with after boil evap (if I've done my calculations right) the right amount of wort to hit my fermenter.

I have my wanted batch size and work back from; 
Loss left in cooler
trub loss in kettle
Evaporation water during boil
Loss left in pump and lines from MLT to Kettle
Soakage from spent grain

Am I missing anything! and again! thanks for reading 

Cheers,
Shaun


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## shaunous (28/11/13)

Hello!


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## Camo6 (28/11/13)

Haven't read the whole thread but I take it you don't have a herms or rims setup? If you don't then you're gonna lose a lot of heat while recirculating and your mash temps will be up shite creek. It would have the opposite effect of a herms/rims as you'd be transferring all that energy to the surrounding environment unless everything was very well insulated.
With 3v setups I imagine it's a lot easier for some to skip the mashout step at the slight cost of efficiency. If you have a herms/rims it's too easy not to skip it.
Gotta go watch TMNT with my eldest but will peruse this thread later.
cheers


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## shaunous (1/12/13)

So what I really should be doing is;

Add grain to Mash Tun
Gravity feed hot water at a temp that'll settle in the Mash tun at 66*c (or whatever the recipe calls)
let that sit as you would a standard mash
NOW

Mash
Mash-Out
Recirc
Drain to Kettle
Sparge while recirculating
Transfer that to Kettle also

OR

Mash
Mash-Out
Drain to Kettle
Add Sparge Water
Recirc
Transfer to kettle

Just not postive when I should be recirculating that's all
And also, how do I know when to stop with this system, its not like previously I've sparged with 78*c water through a colander, easy to tell then as the water turns clear. Obviously recirc system the sparge will never get clear.
Is it just a time thing? recirc long periods and shorten up until my efficiency drops?


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## shaunous (1/12/13)

My way of thinking is as long as your mash isn't dropping in temperature below min 61*c you'd recirc your little heart out????


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## shaunous (2/12/13)

Any Thoughts?

Will put another brew down on Wednesday hopefully.


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## manticle (2/12/13)

Recirc before draining. You are dropping out any grain husks and various bits of protein through recircing. The point is to avoid getting that stuff in the kettle.


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## shaunous (2/12/13)

Yeh, I done that right at least last time.

So you reckon just recirc for maybe 5mins at the end of a 60min mash, drain to kettle, sparge/from HLT while recirculating again for another 5mins, then drain to kettle. 

Top up kettle with determined pre-boil volume
OR
Continue Sparging from HLT until pre-boil volume is met to take advantage of sucking every little ferment able from the grains

THEN
Feed chickens spent grain


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## Yob (2/12/13)

stop sparging at 1010


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## shaunous (2/12/13)

Yob said:


> stop sparging at 1010


AM or PM 

Ok then, so I should hurry the purchase of a refrac along so I'm not continually fukin around with a hydrometer while mashing.

Thanx men

P.s. Just got ya delivery confirm on the hops Yob,


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## manticle (2/12/13)

Or check pH.

If you calculate right, you should be able to be in the ballpark pH/gravity at the volume you want.

Recirc till the wort is clear or at least free of visible husks and less cloudy than when you first run off. If recircing with a pump, you should be able to get pretty clear.


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## shaunous (2/12/13)

So pH can really be that big of a problem ey?

I better do some reading and get a pH meter.


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## manticle (2/12/13)

pH is important for a variety of reasons. pH of the mash is important but also sparge water and wort itself. Oversparging is one cause of astringency from tannins and it is pH related although as Yob said, you can use gravity as an indicator.


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## shaunous (2/12/13)

Just tasted the original Fuk up that started this thread, not to bad actually. Fairly bitter but not a punch in the face, sat at 1011 so have set the temp control to 3.8*c and will secondary for a week after it gets down from 19*c. Will see how it tastes once it's carbed up.

Will do a Brew on Wednesday without worrying about water chem for now. I'll scratch up on that once I've brewed enough for Xmas and the DIY house Reno's are complete.


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## [email protected] (4/12/13)

The bitterness will fade, the flavours seem to smooth out, I find my beers taste their best right before the keg blows!


Cheers,

Andrew.


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## shaunous (5/12/13)

To sleazy, it might not have been a giant mess after all.


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## shaunous (12/12/13)

OK 2nd Brew Today, DrS Landlord, 40L batch. 90min Mash @ 67*c, 78*c Mashout and Sparge, 90Min Boil.

Hit all numbers and liquid temps, Used Beersmith to create my Brewery and with all the maths from the last brew, calibrated the mashmaster temp gauges that were way out, mash, sparge and strike temps all hit nigh on perfect and recorded for next brew, had a minor boilover, 100ml max, caught it quick. Set mill to .9mm and the crush looked like HowToBrew textbook crush. Did not recirc during mash this time, and temperature moved 1*c during a 90min mash.

*OK now the fuk-ups*


Again took FOREVER to cool after flame-out, even used a pre-chiller in an a bath of 8*c water, inline before the actual cooler, will have to work on pump rates and cooling water rates (No real biggie this one)
Used determined pre-boil from Beersmith for my 40L batch, and post boil I had still about 4L over the post boil volume calculation (again no massive biggie, will use a more vigorous boil next time)
OG was calculated to be 1.044, I arrived at 1.031 (This being a biggie), now my first runnings/post mash reading from the Tun was 1.083, 2nd sparge/mashout I did not measure, but 3rd was 1.011(Normally we all stop sparging at 1.010), from the mash volume minus liquid lost in trub and lines + mashout and sparge I arrived at the kettle and topped up to pre-boil volume(52L) with a reading of 1.026, boiled to 45L (1.031), desired was 41L and 1.044, even with the correct post boil volume of 41L I doubt I would have got the 1.044. All were recirculated clear before transfer to kettle.
I had my efficiency set at 73%, only reason I can think to overcome the poor post boil reading is to down my efficiency to 65% or lower and therefore adding more grain.

Thoughts???


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## manticle (12/12/13)

Did you measure gravity at room temp?

Was first runnings at expected gravity? If lower, it's a mash conversion issue or a grain crush issue. If you had measured after sparging, and it was low it would be sparging issue. 4 litres extra will also give lower gravity (boil issue)


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## shaunous (13/12/13)

Measured at 28*c with a ATC Refrac.

Don't know what the first runnings was meant to be, and cant find it in Beersmith for my recipe. BUT just found pre-boil Gravity and it should have been 1.037, which is well higher than my 1.026.

Mmmmmm, thought my .9mm crush should have done the job, on comparing photo's of good crush's in books mine looks to be the same. good even mix of white fluff and cracked husks.

Once I've mashed, how long should I mashout for? I probably didn't mash out for long enough, but I did mashout twice, 2nd one having a reading of 1.011 as said above, so however long I mashed out for, it wouldn't have mattered.

Here was my mash process.
Mashed 8.2kg Grain in 22L water for 90mins @ 66*c, then recirc until clear and pump to kettle = 1.083
Mashout adding 20L water @ 78*c, recirc, pump to Kettle.
Sparge adding 10L water @ 78*c recirc, pump to Kettle.

Liquid loss in the mash wasn't HUGELY excessive either, BUT, Calculating the above water added through MLT to Kettle is 52L (That's a fluke to match the calculated pre-boil vol by the way), and what I really ended up with and having to add water after was well under 40L, about 34L.


Next time will do a single batch, and adjust my mash efficiency. That's all I can put it down to, for now.


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