# pitching dry lager yeast temp ?



## mongey (14/1/15)

so got my fridge working with the temp controller last night and want to put down my 1st lager yeast after work today, a bock FWK .I read the yeast packet yesteday and it said to pitch 1 packet at room temp and 2 at fermenting temp and this threw me a bit. I figured I'd chill the wort to fermenting temp and pitch then and be away . I did some googling and it was all inconclusive on whats best .I only have 1 packet of yeast so room temp is favourable .


If I pitch the lager yeast at room temp do I put it straight in the fridge set to 13 or wait for some signs of fermentation then put in the fridge ? guess the other option would to be to set the fridge controller to 20 or so and then bring it down after 24 hours


also reading up on the cold crash for lager yeast. so from searching I take it I wait for it to finish then drop the fridge down to 2 degress for a couple days ?


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## slcmorro (14/1/15)

Pitch both when the wort is around 10c, and make sure the yeast sachets are pretty close to the same temp. That's all you need to do. Just leave the fridge set around 10-12c for the first couple of weeks, then raise it slowly by a degree a day to 18c. Leave it for a day or two at 18c, and then if you're certain fermentation is complete (grav readings) drop it to as low as you can get (even -2c) for as long as you can wait.


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## technobabble66 (14/1/15)

slcmorro said:


> Pitch both ...


Stop teasing him! He only has 1 sachet, poor guy. h34r: :lol:

** I've not done a lager yet, but **
i've done a fair bit of reading over the last year or 2 in preparation of giving it a crack. The general gist of what i've come across is that you have the 2 options you've encountered. 1) pitch at room temp then drop to fermentation temp. 2) Pitch at fermentation temp.
The yeast can grow/multiply much easier at 18°C than 12°C, so if you do option 1, you can get away with the 1 sachet by leaving it for 24hrs then gradually dropping the temp - something like 1°C every 12hrs (so the yeast can adjust). If you do option 2, you need twice as much yeast otherwise your lag phase may be huge and involve stressing yeast. However, many of the guys around here who seem to know their lagers prefer to pitch the yeast at close to fermentation temps where possible, as the temp drop in option 1 probably stresses the yeast quite a bit. Furthermore, the yeasties set their metabolism to the temp they were "born" at to some extent. Therefore, if they were "born" at 18°C, the theory is their metabolism is optimised for 18°C. So the idea is you try to start their activity to a temp as close to where they'll be spending most of their time - i.e.: fermentation temp - or at a temp that the yeast is doing what you want - e.g.: producing or not producing various esters, etc.

However, given you've only got the 1 packet, it looks like you'll be doing option 1.
The majority of stuff i've read is pitching at 18°C, i think. Leave for 24hrs, then slowly drop to desired temp - maybe 12°C depending on which yeast you've got.
Ideally i'd do what slcmorro said - pitch 2 sachets at 12-14°C.
Wait until it's fermented out the majority of sugars - i can't remember exactly, but something like 10-20% of sugars left, so 3-8 points of grav before FG is hit - then gradually raise the temp up to a D-rest. So i think it's something like 1-2°C per 12hrs up to 18°C, then at 18°C for a day or 3, then gradually drop down to something between 0-4°C at about a similar rate (maybe 1°C per day ideally to try to make sure the yeasties don't fall asleep). This is the actual lagering phase - anywhere from 2-4 weeks seems standard.

I'm guessing you already know most of what i've just regurgitated, but thought it might be worth setting it out in case there were any gaps in your reading. Again - based on reading not experience, so hopefully some of the lager experts will chime in at some time soon.
I hope that helps.


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## mongey (14/1/15)

Thanks 

I could get a 2nd packet but it means waiting till weekend. 

I'll have a bash with 1 and see how it goes.


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## Blind Dog (14/1/15)

I've used a s23 and w40/70 in the past and pitched both at 18C (1 packet) and 10C (2 packets), both rehydrated. Personally, if you have either if those, I would recommend buying another packet, rehydrating and pitching both at 10C as the results were cleaner, sharper and better attenuated compared to pitching at 18C and then dropping temp.

A diacetyl rest near the end if fermentation may be required (I generally do it as a matter of course for lagers). And then lagering of course.


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## mongey (15/1/15)

So in true have a bash style I pitched the s23 at room temp. Wort was 22 degrees. Put it in the fridge set to 18 for a few hours. Wort was still 20 degrees after a few hours. Before bed dropped fridge down to 13 degrees figuring it will take a while to get the wort temp down.thid morning was looking likley with pressure in the airlock and condensation in the lid. Now 24 hours later wort is right on 13 and is bubbling away with a krausen layer.


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## Mr. No-Tip (15/1/15)

Growth faze is so crucial for flavour development. Would you pitch an ale yeast at 30 and then bring down to 20? Not without expecting issues.

Beer will turn out quite tasty I am sure, but quite probably with a fruity fullness that's out of place in a lager.


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## mongey (16/1/15)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> Growth faze is so crucial for flavour development. Would you pitch an ale yeast at 30 and then bring down to 20? Not without expecting issues.
> 
> Beer will turn out quite tasty I am sure, but quite probably with a fruity fullness that's out of place in a lager.


cheers

sure it wont be perfect but hey you gotta start somewhere.I did somwe wild stuff on my 1st few ales that I wouldnt do now and got better

it is a dark bock so hopefully its not too out of place


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## fraser_john (16/1/15)

Blind Dog said:


> I've used a s23 and w40/70 in the past and pitched both at 18C (1 packet) and 10C (2 packets), both rehydrated. Personally, if you have either if those, I would recommend buying another packet, rehydrating and pitching both at 10C as the results were cleaner, sharper and better attenuated compared to pitching at 18C and then dropping temp.
> 
> A diacetyl rest near the end if fermentation may be required (I generally do it as a matter of course for lagers). And then lagering of course.


Rehydrating is so under utilized in our community as people say "the pack says just sprinkle on top of wort".....yes, that does work no denying it, but expect a massive loss in viability. Anyone interested in learning more about rehydrating and the reasons why should read http://www.amazon.com/Yeast-Practical-Fermentation-Brewing-Elements/dp/0937381969

A great educational read.


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## Goose (16/1/15)

There are quite some schools of thought here.

However it is a fact that Fermentis recommend rehydration at 23 deg C for maximum yeast viability.

However lagers are best fermented low though Fermentis S23 recommends 12-15 degC. 

So, the options are (assuming we are rehydrating and not sprinkling  ) :

1) rehydrate at 23 deg C then pitch into wort at fermentation temperature. A bit like jumping into an ice water bath.. brrr....
2) rehydrate at 23 deg C, pitch into wort no warmer, then cool as rapidly as possible to fermentation temperature
3) rehydrate at 23 deg C, wait a while, then cool the hydrated yeast down as close as possible to wort temperature as quickly as possible. (tricky, as cooling time should not exceed maximum rehydration time, which is around 20 minutes).

Just to add, if you are a sprinkler, you need your wort warmer than 20 deg C at pitching.


Edit: Fermentis recommended fermentation temperature.


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## fraser_john (16/1/15)

Yeah you are right, there are a lot of thoughts, talked about by many that just repeat what others say or have heard, but I think I'd rather trust Chris White (of White Labs, Phd Yeast Biochemistry) when he writes(snippets from Working With Dry Yeast):

Why Rehydrate?
- Skipping rehydration kills about half dry yeast pitched.
- Dead cells begin decomposing immediately, off flavours & aromas.
- Cells can “leach” out their innards when hydrated in wort or RO water or at the too cool of a temperature.
- Cells cannot regulate their membrane whilst rehydrating in wort, meaning hop oils, sugars cross the cell wall and can damage the cell.


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## Goose (16/1/15)

Yep. All logical.

Though I am not trying to rekindle the infamous yeast rehydration debate.

More just trying to point out that for lagers that the ideal temperature for yeast rehydration is different to that of ideal fermentation, and so perhaps a method of avoiding temperature shock (if that is significant) should be considered.


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## technobabble66 (16/1/15)

It's been posted before, but this video of Neva Parker ( :wub: ) from Northern Brewer is a great summary of all things yeast - namely in terms of the factors affecting favourable and unfavourable yeast output (such as pitching variables).



PS: Mods, this link should be pinned in the yeast section.


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## Magnaman (18/1/15)

Hey technobabble66, thanks' for the link, very interesting and informative. 

Cheers.


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