# Please Check My Water Additions



## aaronpetersen (3/4/11)

I'm planning my first attempt at mucking around with water additions. I'm a BIAB brewer and planning on doing Jamil's Oatmeal Stout. I have plugged my grain bill and the Melbourne water profile from Tony Wheeler's article "Key Concepts In Water Treatment" into the EZ Water calculator and then added 7g of CaCl to lower pH and increase calcium. The EZ water output is shown below.
Should I be adding sulphate to bring the Chloride/sulphate ratio down and bring the sulphate levels into range? From what I've read sulphate isn't needed in this style. Does it matter that Mg is low?
Any other comments from any water chemistry experts are greatly welcomed.


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## katzke (3/4/11)

AaronP said:


> I'm planning my first attempt at mucking around with water additions. I'm a BIAB brewer and planning on doing Jamil's Oatmeal Stout. I have plugged my grain bill and the Melbourne water profile from Tony Wheeler's article "Key Concepts In Water Treatment" into the EZ Water calculator and then added 7g of CaCl to lower pH and increase calcium. The EZ water output is shown below.
> Should I be adding sulphate to bring the Chloride/sulphate ratio down and bring the sulphate levels into range? From what I've read sulphate isn't needed in this style. Does it matter that Mg is low?
> Any other comments from any water chemistry experts are greatly welcomed.
> 
> View attachment 45061



I always add Epsom Salts to get the Magnezium up to 15 for my water.

I think you are one sided and out of whack on your addition. Do you know what you want your water to look like? that is the first place to start. Do not believe the first thing you read. Not all water profiles are true. Just because some expert walked into a brewery and took a sample from the bath room does not say the brewery uses that water.

Read as much as you can before you start dumping stuff in your water.

I would tell you more but I do not have a proven profile for a stout yet.


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## [email protected] (3/4/11)

You are brewing a stout so i would not be using any sulphates at all.
I would split my calcium additions into a 50/50 mix of calcium chloride and calcium carbonate.
I would then be checking the mash PH and if it ends up to high adjusting with Phosphoric acid.


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## aaronpetersen (3/4/11)

Beer4U said:


> You are brewing a stout so i would not be using any sulphates at all.
> I would split my calcium additions into a 50/50 mix of calcium chloride and calcium carbonate.
> I would then be checking the mash PH and if it ends up to high adjusting with Phosphoric acid.



I don't understand why you would put carbonate in, which will raise the pH, and then add acid to bring it back down, when you could simply add CaCl and get the right pH (according to the EZ water calculator). Is the carbonate doing anything in particular? My understanding is that carbonates are undesirable, but I'm knew to this and could be wrong.


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## aaronpetersen (3/4/11)

katzke said:


> I always add Epsom Salts to get the Magnezium up to 15 for my water.
> 
> I think you are one sided and out of whack on your addition. Do you know what you want your water to look like? that is the first place to start. Do not believe the first thing you read. Not all water profiles are true. Just because some expert walked into a brewery and took a sample from the bath room does not say the brewery uses that water.
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to recreate a water profile of a particular brewery or location, I'm simply trying to make good beer! I have read a fair bit, although I'm sure I could always read more. Based on my reading, I decided to add calcium because Melb water is deficient and calcium is supposed to be good for just about everything from enzyme activity in the mash to yeast health. I added chloride because, based on what I've read, it doesn't do any harm and is good for dark beers. I haven't added any magnesium because my understanding is that the malt will provide adequate Mg to the mash.


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## [email protected] (3/4/11)

Your starting carbonate is not that high. It is hard to know exactly what the water on the day will be like.
Carbonates buffer against acidity of the dark grains, it can also help produce more mellow malt flavours, dark grains can have that acrid taste esp if water is high in sulphates.

You can use all Chloride by all means, it is the most benine of all the salts imo. Your mash might end up too low?
Until you mash in and measure your PH you wont know for sure whats going on.


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## aaronpetersen (3/4/11)

Beer4U said:


> It is hard to know exactly what the water on the day will be like.


You are quite right, in the water report I saw, the variation between the minimum and maximum values for certain ions was huge



> Carbonates buffer against acidity of the dark grains, it can also help produce more mellow malt flavours,


Do carbonates produce mellow malt flavours simply because of their effect on pH or is there more to it than that? In other words, if the pH is within the right range without adding carbonates, will the addition of extra carbonates have any effect on the malt flavour (assuming I maintain the same pH with acid as you suggested).


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## [email protected] (3/4/11)

AaronP said:


> Do carbonates produce mellow malt flavours simply because of their effect on pH or is there more to it than that? In other words, if the pH is within the right range without adding carbonates, will the addition of extra carbonates have any effect on the malt flavour (assuming I maintain the same pH with acid as you suggested).



This is starting to get a bit out of my leauge :unsure: adding salts to help adjust / buffer PH in the mash is one thing.

adding salts - some type of calcium because the water is lacking to begin with 
Calcium in general is beneficial for the mash enzymes and also good for fermentation.

Some brewers will also add extra salts to alter the flavour profile, to try and replicate the water of specific brewing regions
as was mentioned earlier i think.

The taste difference of using one salt or a mix of the two or three is up to you, i am still very much in the early stages of my brewing life and playing with different salts in different beers, all about the experimentation.

Some other more experienced hands might chime in and put it in better terms for you.


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## aaronpetersen (4/4/11)

Anybody else out there able to help with my water additions?


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## geoffd (4/4/11)

Hi Aaron, if you read Tony's article it explains the use of carbonate in stout.
It's primary function is to raise the Ph to offset the lower Ph of the dark roast malts, it's just an added bonus that carbonate will also accentuate the malt profile, I dont belive this flavour change is a Ph issue, though you are right in thinking a more acidic beer will taste less malty, just like an IPA cut through the fat in a big juicy steak.

If you're not reading your Ph accurately & just guessing, try 120ppm of carbonate, should be enough unless you're very heavy handed with roast barley or black patant malt.


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## clarkey7 (4/4/11)

AaronP said:


> Anybody else out there able to help with my water additions?


AaronP,

This spreadsheet is driven by formulas that assume linear response to mash thickness within certain limits...
Outside of these limits the relationship is not linear.

It was not designed for BIAB where you use the entire water volume as the "mash".

Note the text in the bottom RHS of the top blue box within the EZ water spreadsheet......your water to grist ratio is too high according to the author's own formula.

I doubt the mash pH will come out anywhere near 5.36 with all that Roast Barley in Melbourne (nearly distilled) water (I guess it could depending on water spits out your tap on the day). Wow that's a high percentage of RB :unsure: 

The CaCl addition to Melbourne water pushes it even further (too low) resulting in a negative Residual Alkalinity.

See Palmer how to brew ch15.3. Palmer Residual Alkalinity

I'd go with with mainly CaCO3 and have baking soda (NaHCO3) handy to add if your mash pH is too low.

You could add little amounts of CaCl and CaSO4, but I don't think it's necessary.

I tried a stout done by the Melbourne boys @ ANHC last year with CaCO3 in the mash and boil only.

It was great and much better than the Melbourne water with no additions stout.

As you can see from my signature, I've just brewed 3 identical stouts with different water profiles to give to people at the next BABBs meeting. Should be interesting...the ph readings certainly were!

Good luck with your stout :icon_cheers: ,

PB


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## aaronpetersen (4/4/11)

Pocket Beers said:


> AaronP,
> 
> Note the text in the bottom RHS of the top blue box within the EZ water spreadsheet......your water to grist ratio is too high according to the author's own formula.


Yes, I did see that. Would I be better off doing a thicker mash and adding the extra water after mashout? If I mash with 14 L then my pH is 5.33. I can then add 2 g each of CaCl and CaCO3 to get 101 ppm calcium, 80 ppm CaCO3, 81 ppm Cl, residual alkalinity 7, and pH 5.34.



> I doubt the mash pH will come out anywhere near 5.36 with all that Roast Barley in Melbourne (nearly distilled) water (I guess it could depending on water spits out your tap on the day).


I was surprised too when I plugged the numbers in. That's why I added CaCl to bring the pH down. It was 5.50 without the CaCl. 


> Wow that's a high percentage of RB :unsure:


That's the total amount of roasted grains, including amber and chocolate malt and roasted barley.


> The CaCl addition to Melbourne water pushes it even further (too low) resulting in a negative Residual Alkalinity.


This is where I get confused. If the pH is within the right range then how can residual alkanility be too low??



> I'd go with with mainly CaCO3 and have baking soda (NaHCO3) handy to add if your mash pH is too low.


But, according to the spreadsheet, the pH will already be too high. Even if I do a thicker mash I still can't afford to add much CaCO3 before it'll get too high.


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## geoffd (4/4/11)

that my last stout additions, water grist ratio 2.5 for 4.8kg of malt about 25l batch
I just realised that my water is preboil volume instead of post boil for the salt concentrations.

Too lazy to check the ph reading but should be ballpark


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## nala (4/4/11)

AaronP said:


> I'm planning my first attempt at mucking around with water additions. I'm a BIAB brewer and planning on doing Jamil's Oatmeal Stout. I have plugged my grain bill and the Melbourne water profile from Tony Wheeler's article "Key Concepts In Water Treatment" into the EZ Water calculator and then added 7g of CaCl to lower pH and increase calcium. The EZ water output is shown below.
> Should I be adding sulphate to bring the Chloride/sulphate ratio down and bring the sulphate levels into range? From what I've read sulphate isn't needed in this style. Does it matter that Mg is low?
> Any other comments from any water chemistry experts are greatly welcomed.
> 
> View attachment 45061



I have just inputted your water profile into the EZ water calculator and your grain bill.

All you need to do is to add 15grams Calcium Chloride
5grams Epsom Salts (Calcium Sulphate)
60grams Acidulated malt

Your mash pH will be5.3 which is perfect.


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## manticle (4/4/11)

I'm far from expert but 15g seems like a lot to me and I wouldn't be adding sulphate at all to this brew. I can't imagine that acidulated should be needed with a stout either.

I was going to leave the recommendations to others but this doesn't sit right.

Are you sure you've got that right nala?


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## felten (4/4/11)

epsom is magnesium sulphate, not calcium sulphate just FTR


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## aaronpetersen (4/4/11)

nala said:


> I have just inputted your water profile into the EZ water calculator and your grain bill.
> 
> All you need to do is to add 15grams Calcium Chloride
> 5grams Epsom Salts (Calcium Sulphate)
> ...



When I plug those water additions into the spreadsheet I don't get 5.3 pH, I get 5.17. The calcium and chloride values also go outside the recommended range.


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## vic45 (4/4/11)

What about .5 grams gypsum, 7 grams cal chloride and 2 grams epsom salts?

Looks ok on EZwater


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## aaronpetersen (4/4/11)

vic45 said:


> What about .5 grams gypsum, 7 grams cal chloride and 2 grams epsom salts?
> 
> Looks ok on EZwater



Those additions look OK to me. The residual alkalinity comes out at -69 but I'm not sure if that matters. As I said above, if the pH is correct then why worry about RA? Can someone help me out with that?


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## nala (4/4/11)

manticle said:


> I'm far from expert but 15g seems like a lot to me and I wouldn't be adding sulphate at all to this brew. I can't imagine that acidulated should be needed with a stout either.
> 
> I was going to leave the recommendations to others but this doesn't sit right.
> 
> Are you sure you've got that right nala?



I have used the information provided and inputted that to the EZ Water calculator programme,this is what was asked for,
whether this will make a good brew I am not sure.
The addition of acidulated malt is used to get the mash pH to the required level 5.2 - 5.4 pH.
The error that I made was describing Epsom Salts as Calcium Sulphate instead of Maghnesium Sulphate, the additions are as recommended in the EZ Water calculator programme.
The only comment I would make is this, if you use the EZ calculator for adjusting the water profile and the Mash pH, then that is what you should do,otherwise guesswork comes into play.


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## kevin_smevin (4/4/11)

Father Jack said:


> Hi Aaron, if you read Tony's article it explains the use of carbonate in stout.
> It's primary function is to raise the Ph to offset the lower Ph of the dark roast malts, it's just an added bonus that carbonate will also accentuate the malt profile, I dont belive this flavour change is a Ph issue, though you are right in thinking a more acidic beer will taste less malty, just like an IPA cut through the fat in a big juicy steak.
> 
> If you're not reading your Ph accurately & just guessing, try 120ppm of carbonate, should be enough unless you're very heavy handed with roast barley or black patant malt.



120ppm carbonate is WAY too high. The buffering effect of carbonate is about 4 times stronger then that of Ca. The effect of roasted malts on mash pH is not that high. Every brew text book (read text book, not home brew book) recommends keeping carbonate below 50ppm, that is the max. Keep it below 25ppm for pale beers. A textbook by wolfgang Kunze (cant remember the name of the book) recommends the above for carbonate levels and also says the optimum pH of a mash is below 5.2 which is on the acidic side of the mash pH range - pH below 5.2 will inhibit the action of lipoxygenase enzyme which is one of the main enzymes responsible for beer becoming stale. I have never read a professional brew textbook that recommends the addition of carbonate. Of course Melbourne's water has pretty much none at all so small additions would not hurt but dont go overboard, keep it below 50ppm. Try keep your ppm Ca about 4 times higher then your carbonate.


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## felten (5/4/11)

IMO these spreadsheets need to be taken with a large grain of salt, they are just a rough guide, one that takes into account a lot of assumptions. 

If you are concerned that your mash pH isn't where it should be, then you need to go out and purchase a pH meter, or some pH strips and measure it, then adjust with whatever you have on hand. Otherwise just add them for flavour and forget about guessing what the pH will be.


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## katzke (5/4/11)

Recipes for water are a tricky thing. While there is basis for the calculations used there is no ideal formula for any beer. Treating water is done for 2 reasons. To try and get the pH in an acceptable range, and to influence the flavor. As you can see from the responses neither of these reasons has agreement on how to do it. Add the complication of differing results from all the variables in home brewing and it gets very hard to get reliable results.

What I do when making up a water recipe is look for all the input I can get from other similar beer recipes. I have also got some reference formulas from brewing books. I believe that brewing classic styles (is that the name?) has information in the back on collected additions for most brewing styles. I then start punching numbers in several programs and spreadsheets I have for calculating water profiles. I then take a best guess and brew. I check to see if the pH is close. I use strips and as long as it looks good I am happy. Then the true test is in tasting.

Take a balanced approach. Your first try of a single addition was very simple and as you could see the resulting flavor profile was not balanced. You will find that it is almost impossible to get the numbers exactly to where you want them. No two brewers will agree on what the water should be like. Just get as close as you can and brew.

I would give you a water recipe for a stout if I had one.


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## manticle (5/4/11)

nala said:


> I have used the information provided and inputted that to the EZ Water calculator programme,this is what was asked for,
> whether this will make a good brew I am not sure.



There are multiple ways you could use the calculator to get the right pH. No point making recommendations if you don't know how they might end up. The reading I've done suggests your additions are out.

I'm not having a go at you but this is exactly why I won't make suggestions as to what Aaron should be adding. He's already been told 15 different things.


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## aaronpetersen (5/4/11)

There seems to be a lot of conflicting views on water adjustments. I think I will buy some pH strips, check my mash pH, and then adjust accordingly with either CaCl2 or CaCO3. This then leads me to my next question. How do I calculate how much of a certain salt I need to add to bring the pH into the range I want? As far as I can tell the EZ water calc can't do that.


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## OzBeer_MD (5/4/11)

you might find this calculator http://jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water/water.html useful, even if just for a second opinion.

MD


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## kevin_smevin (5/4/11)

AaronP said:


> There seems to be a lot of conflicting views on water adjustments. I think I will buy some pH strips, check my mash pH, and then adjust accordingly with either CaCl2 or CaCO3. This then leads me to my next question. How do I calculate how much of a certain salt I need to add to bring the pH into the range I want? As far as I can tell the EZ water calc can't do that.



I dont think there is a way. Because of all of the variables (grain composition etc) there is no direct correlation between salt additions and pH change. In my opinion it is best to adjust pH with acid additions - lactic or phosphoric. Salt additions should be made to improve the process and adjust flavour - 50-100ppm Ca in all brews, Cl to accentuate Malt flavours, S04 to accentuate hop bitterness and provide a minerally flavour. 

So my advice would be to buy some pH strips, make your salt additions based on flavour, mash in and check your pH (check pH of sample at room temp). If it needs adjusting, add some acid. I think its rare that your mash will be too acidic unless you use alot of acidified malt. If it is, you'd have to add carbonates, probably as bi carb which is fine, Na (salt) is a flavour enhancer - be very careful when adding carbonates as a small amount makes a big difference. Record everything you do so next time you brew you'll have a better idea about where you need to go in terms of pH.

Good luck


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## aaronpetersen (5/4/11)

yum yum yum said:


> I dont think there is a way. Because of all of the variables (grain composition etc) there is no direct correlation between salt additions and pH change. In my opinion it is best to adjust pH with acid additions - lactic or phosphoric. Salt additions should be made to improve the process and adjust flavour - 50-100ppm Ca in all brews, Cl to accentuate Malt flavours, S04 to accentuate hop bitterness and provide a minerally flavour.
> 
> So my advice would be to buy some pH strips, make your salt additions based on flavour, mash in and check your pH (check pH of sample at room temp). If it needs adjusting, add some acid. I think its rare that your mash will be too acidic unless you use alot of acidified malt. If it is, you'd have to add carbonates, probably as bi carb which is fine, Na (salt) is a flavour enhancer - be very careful when adding carbonates as a small amount makes a big difference. Record everything you do so next time you brew you'll have a better idea about where you need to go in terms of pH.
> 
> Good luck



Thanks Yum, that sounds like good advice to me. One (hopefully) last question. How important is the chloride/sulfate ratio in a malty beer like a stout? Can it be too high? For instance, can I get away with using only CaCl2 to get my Ca levels up or should I also add some CaSO4?


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## katzke (5/4/11)

AaronP said:


> Thanks Yum, that sounds like good advice to me. One (hopefully) last question. How important is the chloride/sulfate ratio in a malty beer like a stout? Can it be too high? For instance, can I get away with using only CaCl2 to get my Ca levels up or should I also add some CaSO4?



Balance Balance Balance.

Yes you can get a good idea of how much to add to get the pH level for a beer recipe. It may not be spot on but better then batting in the dark.

Following the advice of someone that says to have acid ready to balance the pH in a stout may cause you problems. Dark grains will be acid already. The problem is by the time you know what your pH is a bunch of conversion has happened already.

You answered me once by saying you have read a bunch on water. You keep asking questions you should have an idea about if you did read a bunch. It is very common to see advice on what levels are recommended for each of the brewing salts. Too much can be a bad thing.

Try looking at the link given for the water calculator. It has recommendations for a stout. I do not like how far out the chloride/sulfate ratios are for the stout or some of the other recommendations. At least it is a place to start.

Remember Balance Balance Balance. If all you had to do was dump in some of this for that beer you would be reading it in all you have read on the subject.

If you have not done it start with Palmer. Then go here http://hbd.org/brewery/library/wchmprimer.html, then go here http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/b...ue1.3/king.html, then here http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...tanding_Mash_pH. I have not checked the links. I am sure I have more sources if you want to read more.


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## dent (5/4/11)

katzke said:


> The problem is by the time you know what your pH is a bunch of conversion has happened already.



This isn't a problem - if the pH is wrong, then conversion will be slow until you correct it. If it is right, then everything is OK anyhow. The pH can never in practise be bad enough to ruin your enzymes, and there is no such thing as a 'bad' conversion due to faulty pH.

Measuring and correcting the pH after dough in is in my opinion a much more effective and reliable method then attempting to calculate it beforehand - a process which is evidently up to much interpretation even here. Obviously you organise your grist/salts beforehand to put yourself in the ballpark, but leave yourself room to manoeuvre.


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## katzke (5/4/11)

dent said:


> This isn't a problem - if the pH is wrong, then conversion will be slow until you correct it. If it is right, then everything is OK anyhow. The pH can never in practise be bad enough to ruin your enzymes, and there is no such thing as a 'bad' conversion due to faulty pH.
> 
> Measuring and correcting the pH after dough in is in my opinion a much more effective and reliable method then attempting to calculate it beforehand - a process which is evidently up to much interpretation even here. Obviously you organise your grist/salts beforehand to put yourself in the ballpark, but leave yourself room to manoeuvre.



Each to there own. I find that calculating additions is easy if you have an idea of what you have and want. Will it get me to 5.2? Have no clue as I use strips to measure. In fact the only beers I have had problems calculating are wheat beers. Not surprising as the calculators are designed for barley. The solution for me is to treat wheat beers as a darker beer. A case where experience and observation are important. Results have been repeatable so far. 

So in my experience calculating salt additions for pH is easy and possible. Taste additions are subjective. I am happy with my results on that also. The 2:1 1:1 and 1:2 ratios for Chloride/Sulfate work. You need to remember to balance the other additions because Sodium will effect flavor also. Dang I am back to Balance again.


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## kevin_smevin (5/4/11)

katzke said:


> Balance Balance Balance.
> 
> Yes you can get a good idea of how much to add to get the pH level for a beer recipe. It may not be spot on but better then batting in the dark.
> 
> ...



Its true, dark grain are acidic as i have mentioned. The percentage of dark grains in your mash isn't that high however and their contribution towards lowering mash pH isn't huge. I'd be very surprised if you mashed in with a stout recipe and found your pH too low. I still recommend adding your salts for flavour etc and just measure your pH at the beginning of your mash. Brewing is a learning curve, you shouldn't expect to be spot on right from the start - if you record everything you did, in time you will be able to figure out exactly what is needed to hit your target pH. There is nothing wrong with using only CaCl but it really comes down to personal preference. Try it this way, and then balance a bit with S04 next time and see which you like better. Recommend ratio's are a good guie but they aren't for everyone.


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