# Plambic & The Turbid Mash



## Asher (31/5/07)

This is mine and Chillamacgilla's first attempt at a pLambic (pseudo-lambic). It has been strongly influenced by Mr Jim Liddil's article 'A liddil lambic Lesson' (the article can be found here : http://hbd.org/brewery/library/LmbicJL0696.html )

Were planning on doing a Turbid mash using the Cantillon method described in Liddil's article (and several other places on the net).
See attached flowsheet showing how we plan to attack the complicated mash schedule scaled to Juncthouse volumes.

Edit: see beow for revised mash schedule

Plugging some Cantillon volumes and rest temps into ProMash I noticed the 45deg (protein?) rest liquor to grist ratio is under 1!. Has anyone mashed at such low ratio's? I've adjusted ours up slightly to 1.5:1. Having done this the ratio hasn't blown out from the later infusion steps as much as I'd expected and the highest it gets is still only 2.29:1...

Any comments?
Should we increase the initial infusion volume some more or is the thick mash important?

Cheers Asher


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## kook (31/5/07)

I'd test it first with say 100g of kirin in a kitchen container. See whether there is actually enough liquid for absorbsion and go from there.

Do you have a copy of wild brews? Theres a guide to a small scale turbid mash in there which may help. Unfortunately my copy is currently packed in a box, and I'm not sure which one has beer books!

I'll be following this closely, as once I've got the brewery in action again I'm planning a pLambic along with another Flanders Red.


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## chillamacgilla73 (1/6/07)

'tis going to be a complicated mash and I'm looking forward to the challenge. Any help with the liquor volumes would be appreciated.

Does anyone know if stepping up Wyeast lambic blend would affect the compostion of the various yeasts and bacteria? EG: Could one bacteria/yeast dominate due to starter conditions(Temp/SG etc). We are going to use two smack packs to be safe but I would be curious to hear peoples thoughts.


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## bakkerman (1/6/07)

chillamacgilla73 said:


> Does anyone know if stepping up Wyeast lambic blend would affect the compostion of the various yeasts and bacteria? EG: Could one bacteria/yeast dominate due to starter conditions(Temp/SG etc). We are going to use two smack packs to be safe but I would be curious to hear peoples thoughts.



Chilla,

Different organisms are dominant at different times. I reckon you can make a starter with the Lambic blend and aerate it. The Saccharomyces yeasts will dominate while there's loads of sugars to chew up, the bugs dominate once primary fermentation has ceased. 

I'm making a starter with my lambic blend!! :super:


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## Goat (1/6/07)

bloody hell - I hope I'm up-wind of you guys when you do it ! (I don't feel like flame sterilising my brewery after that).

Good luck though - sounds like fun.


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## chillamacgilla73 (1/6/07)

Thanks bakkerman - as I suspected. I may get another lambic brewing in the next few months and will keep a little of the smack pack for that batch. Have you ever had a crack at a turbid mash?

Goat - My brew will be fermenting under the house as SWMBO said theres no way I can safely leave a polycarb bottle in the spare room without moving it and damaging the perricle for a year - Killjoy.... Hopefully the white ant inspector doesn't neck it while under the house! You should be right for infections till the summer easterlies kick in.


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## bakkerman (1/6/07)

Hi Chilla,

I have been reading up about this, the Belgians call this method "Slijmmethode", which translates as slime method. Once you see how glutenous the first runs are you'll see why ;  

I have attached a spreadsheet I picked up from a dutch forum. It details amounts to use.
A quick translation: Ketel = Kettle, inweken = soak, samenvoegen = join, tijd = time.

Have a look and see if it's usefull!View attachment recept_lambic_per_kg_storting.xls


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## Asher (1/6/07)

Gday bakkerman

My quick calculations put the liquor to grist ratio of the dutch recipe at first runnings into the mash kettle at 1.7:1. Thats slightly thicker than I'd allowed (2.13:1).... definately slimey!!
maybe I should thicken up our recipe slightly hey Chilla?

Kook will pull my copy of Wildbrews of the shelf for a read this weekend

Cheers to you both

Asher


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## bakkerman (1/6/07)

Hi Asher,

Just revisited the forum where I picked this up, the spreadsheet is actualy based on the method described in Wildbrews.

Good Luck!


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## ausdb (1/6/07)

chillamacgilla73 said:


> 'tis going to be a complicated mash and I'm looking forward to the challenge. Any help with the liquor volumes would be appreciated.
> 
> Does anyone know if stepping up Wyeast lambic blend would affect the compostion of the various yeasts and bacteria? EG: Could one bacteria/yeast dominate due to starter conditions(Temp/SG etc). We are going to use two smack packs to be safe but I would be curious to hear peoples thoughts.



I have heard this about the old Roeslare blend so could possibly be the same with the lambic, considering they are both collections of bugs!


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (1/6/07)

If using the Wyeast Lambic blend, there is a simplified turbid mash schedule recommended by Wyeast.
Its on page 142 of Wildbrews, but I suspect you are one step ahead on that one.


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## chillamacgilla73 (2/6/07)

Thanks all for your help.

Asher - I recks we thicken it up a little. I am jumping in the deep end of the Belgian brewing pool here and I canny wait.
:beer:


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## Asher (12/6/07)

Tweaked the schedule a little.... 

View attachment pLambic_Turbid_Mash_AHB.doc


Main changes are: Thickened up the protein rest to something more traditional and reduced the infusion step water temperature to 90 deg (Closer to what the actual water temp will be by the time it hits the mash). Have dropped my efficiency down to 65 from 80 as advised in various texts.. Will sort that after this first attempt

All go for this Sat!


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## kook (12/6/07)

Good stuff!

Let us know how it goes, I've ordered some lambic blend from Roy so as soon as that is in I want to give it a go!


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## Guest Lurker (12/6/07)

Umm......you guys do realise you are going to make something that tastes like manky infected homebrew? Takes all sorts I guess.


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## kook (12/6/07)

Guest Lurker said:


> Umm......you guys do realise you are going to make something that tastes like manky infected homebrew? Takes all sorts I guess.



When I brew mine and eventually bottle it, I'll put a tea bag in one for you :lol:


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## Asher (12/6/07)

Guest Lurker said:


> Umm......you guys do realise you are going to make something that tastes like manky infected homebrew? Takes all sorts I guess.



If Guest Lurker has a craving for Brett he just turns the hose on the hounds.... :lol:


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## Weizguy (13/6/07)

Guest Lurker said:


> Umm......you guys do realise you are going to make something that tastes like manky infected homebrew? Takes all sorts I guess.


Ah, I believe that you have missed the point here.

...or are you just having a friendly stir? in which case, I reiterate the above. :lol: 

Very inspiring, guys. It's a shame that the flood at my place claimed my lambic (sitting on the floor in my garage.

Two thumbs up! :super: 

Seth


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## bconnery (13/6/07)

Guest Lurker said:


> Umm......you guys do realise you are going to make something that tastes like manky infected homebrew? Takes all sorts I guess.



He's right. Once bottled, pack them up and send them to me, I'll dispose of them safely


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## chillamacgilla73 (18/6/07)

A great brewday at the junctyard was completed on Saturday without a hitch. A well planned brewday where rest temps were hit(Without using the HERMS) and efficiency was much higher than expected...Asher has the details/notes/pics...

Highlights:
* Crushing whole wheat(1st time for me) - Ashers Schmidling malt mill chew thru it once a slower grain flow was achieved
* Dough in @1Lt/Kg...A stiff mash to say the least.
* Miso soup looking mash kettle...someone say protein?
* Brewing using a top shelf brewery - although it chews up some o-rings . Makes a pleasant change from my "stacked-outdoor-furniture-gravity- fed-brewery" (I now have a goal).
* Tasting some funked up Lambics from Big Al n Ashers cellars.
* My first experience with Aged hops - thanks Kook.
* Picking the BigAl n Ashers brains with brewing n kegging questions...
* Perusing pic's from Lou n Ashers recent trip to Belgium/Europe - those Belgian brewers are a filthy bunch! Next holiday to visit the in-laws in London is definatley via Belgium...the Fence sitter(Swiss) in-laws can wait.....
* Bonsai and Zen landscaping lessons during the 2hr boil.

17 litres are starting the long ferment in a glass carboy in the spare room - I might poss set up a gallery with monthly pics in the hope of getting timelapse perricle formation...
Cheers n thanks to Asher n Lou for a great day
:beer:


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## kook (18/6/07)

Sounds like it was a success!

Did you use a seperate cooking pot for the mash kettle?


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## chillamacgilla73 (18/6/07)

kook said:


> Sounds like it was a success!
> 
> Did you use a seperate cooking pot for the mash kettle?


Mash kettle was a ~15lt stock pot on a 3ring burner(Junctyard REV 0 kit). I was responsible for keeping it at 80C...+/- 8C......


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## neonmeate (18/6/07)

just make sure there aint any flies in the vicinity... but are you leaving it out to collect some tasty enteric bacteria first as per liddil's recommendation?


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## Asher (25/6/07)

Well we'll know in about a year if the turbid mash was a success. But the mash day went pretty smoothly. Expecting a lower efficiency as described in many articles I worked all volumes on 65%. We ended up with an efficiency of 77%... So some dilution was done prior to pitching the nastiness.

The Juncthouse in Turbid mash mode




And into the fermenters



Another happy customer...


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## Asher (25/6/07)

An Authentic Ferment or what!!... My chest freezer is now very infected...but if I shut my eyes when I stick my head in - Its just like I'm back in the Cantillon Cellar  

The second pic is of a barrel I took at Cantillon.


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## Guest Lurker (25/6/07)

Mental note - don't let Asher set foot in the Big Dog Brewery without setting up a hazmat shower entry to the back yard.


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## neonmeate (25/6/07)

woah! that's some serious bacteria


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## kook (25/6/07)

That is just awesome!


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## Tony (25/6/07)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Ah, I believe that you have missed the point here.
> 
> ...or are you just having a friendly stir? in which case, I reiterate the above. :lol:
> 
> ...



i hope the waters didnt claim the rauch les?

noooooooooooooooooooooooooo

mmmmmmmm i have to say i admire your want for something different and experimentation.

Great stuff.

But i also have to say.......... yuk... sorry, infected beer doesnt do it for me. I have never tried a true lambic but would like to to see if im wrong


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## PostModern (25/6/07)

Asher said:


> An Authentic Ferment or what!!... My chest freezer is now very infected...but if I shut my eyes when I stick my head in - Its just like I'm back in the Cantillon Cellar
> 
> The second pic is of a barrel I took at Cantillon.
> 
> View attachment 13389



Mad! I hope the loss of your freezer is worth it! :unsure:


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## ant (26/6/07)

A spectacularly violent fermentation - fantastic stuff. The only bummer about brewing lambics is that you have to wait so loooong to find out how it's turned out! Sounds like a successful day guys, and good luck keeping the rest of your breweries clean!


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## chillamacgilla73 (28/6/07)

Not quite as speccy as Ashers pic but my glass carboy bubbling away...photo taken prior to sitting carboy in plastic crate in readiness for violent ferment. My smackpac was dated 07/05! I suspect the yeasties are a little jaded so I'm going to grab a some weeping "ooze" tomorrow for yeast top up.


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## chillamacgilla73 (22/8/07)

Crusting up nicely in the spare room after 9 n a bit weeks.....hasn't been tipped out yet by SWMBO...unlike a 2206 yeast cake from the fridge


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## ant (22/8/07)

Cork starting to look nice and festy too :excl: ... mmm... infections...


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## Asher (2/10/07)

'Trash Mash Al' rocked up at my place late yesterday arvo with a few bottles of 'research' he picked up in Amsterdam 

Started off with a Lindemans Gueuze Cuve Ren - Not expecting much from Lindemans, this beer was surprisingly good. Highly carbonated, orangy colour, sour aroma. Complexity ranging from dusty grapefruit, wood through to your typical earthy barnyard flavours. Refreshingly sour, maybe a little clean... but a complexity that lingers long after swallowed. Allot better than I was expecting from a Lindemans (only ever had their sweetened fruit lambics before this)




3 more in the cellar




Hanssens Oude Gueuze - Yum
Cantillon Saint Lamvinus - New one for me! - Merlot , cab-franc grapes & two to three years old lambic are soaked in Bordeaux barrels. producing a deep red beer with pink head
3 Fonteinen Oude Geuze - Yum


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## Trent (2/10/07)

You guys have no idea just how jealous I am. I will probably give a plambic a bash come autumn, when it wont be too hot. Stick it under the house and let it go. 
Asher, let us know how the 3 fonteinen oude geueze tastes, would love to get me hands on one of them (and if my next overseas trip allows, I will be stopping into Belgium for a few days for that very reason).
Hope the lambics turn out great.
Trent


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## dr K (2/10/07)

Mouth watering!!!!
Have you managed to develop a pellicle?
I made a Lambic a few years ago (Roselare Blend) and it did not happen...I figure the main reason being that when most of the fermentation finished I transferred it to a keg and let it sit for 12 months with the occasional venting. Ended up very good....
I made 1 100% Brett Anomolous earlier this year..complete with Turbid Mash..it sat in my back shed sealed in a fermentor with skull and crossbones on it for about two months before kegging..no pellicle..it is...well better than my 80% Malted Wheat multistep burnt mash tun American Wheat...thats not saying much though !!!
Good luck and I hope to try it one day.....

K


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## goatherder (2/10/07)

I've got a super pellicle on my FRA after pitching Roselare - it took about 10 weeks before it appeared. It seemed to take the weather warming up a bit before it took hold.


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## Stuster (2/10/07)

goatherder said:


> I've got a super pellicle on my FRA after pitching Roselare - it took about 10 weeks before it appeared. It seemed to take the weather warming up a bit before it took hold.



Ah, good info, caprine boy. I just pitched the Roselare mixture on the FRA this morning. I'd done a primary with US05 and it was tasting good. I'll try to be patient and wait for a month or two before looking at it.

Anyway, slightly off topic as it's not really going to be a lambic, but lots of bugs in there.


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## Screwtop (2/10/07)

Asher said:


> 'Trash Mash Al' rocked up at my place late yesterday arvo with a few bottles of 'research' he picked up in Amsterdam
> 
> Started off with a Lindemans Gueuze Cuve Ren - Not expecting much from Lindemans, this beer was surprisingly good. Highly carbonated, orangy colour, sour aroma. Complexity ranging from dusty grapefruit, wood through to your typical earthy barnyard flavours. Refreshingly sour, maybe a little clean... but a complexity that lingers long after swallowed. Allot better than I was expecting from a Lindemans (only ever had their sweetened fruit lambics before this)
> 
> ...




Dirty, rotten Lucky Bastards!


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## Asher (11/3/08)

Well nearly 12 months on from the first pLambic attempt. Upon tasting, the beer is still quite bitter due to the debittered hops we used actually being quite bitter! But the aroma and funky flavours are developing quite nicely. There is still some souring left to happen & fingers crossed some more of the bitterness and the slight fecal notes will disappear in the next 12 months or so.. 

Pictured are two corked polycarbonates containing pLambic & one siliconed bunged containing a Flanders Red Ale.









Asher for now


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## chillamacgilla73 (16/3/08)

Mines still chugging along in the computer room. Nice n acidic with a bit of leather n wet horse but the bitterness is still too high.


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## neonmeate (17/3/08)

what do fecal notes sound like?

i noticed too when i was at the cantillon brewery years ago, they gave us some of their aged hops to munch on in the tour, and they were still really bitter!


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## marlow_coates (7/4/08)

Good looking brews fellas.
I have been thinking about a pseudo lambic since learning what they are. Very inspired reading this thread. Also the 'Liddel' article showed just how complex and varied brewing a pseudo lambic can be.

A few questions I was hoping you could help with..

Do you pitch a primary yeast, then pitch the cultured 'wilds' over it?
Or is the cultured 'wild' your first pitch then leave?
Would you recomend getting a complete yeast pack with Brett., Sach. and Pedio. or go with separate pitches of pure cultures?
Did you leave fermenter uncorked till mass bubbling stopped then cork once it could be contained?
In doing the mash do you think it would matter if each 'step' up of temp was done as fast as the burner could work? Or do you need pre prepared water to make instantaneous 'step'?

Hope these questions aren't elementary.

Slowly forming a plan for how I want my own pseudo lambic cellar to operate.

Cheers

Marlow


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## Asher (8/4/08)

Howdy Marlow

Ask me in about 15 years and I may have some idea what I'm talking about.... This is as much a learning experiment for me as you. Since batches will take 2+ years to mature I'll be doing new batches yearly and monitoring/blending/bottling down the track. So my recipe and mashing regime is only my interpretation from researching some of the more traditional lambic breweries techniques and thus just the philosophical route I have chosen...Sometimes a good thing to do rather than just buy the latest book of recipes from the pope 

So 



> Do you pitch a primary yeast, then pitch the cultured 'wilds' over it?


I didn't, the Wyeast Lambic Blend contains a couple of Saccharomyces yeasts (normal beer yeast) in the blend so no need to pitch a primary yeasts



> Would you recomend getting a complete yeast pack with Brett., Sach. and Pedio. or go with separate pitches of pure cultures?


I went with the blend - This being a long term project I wanted something to be similar in each batch. So I'll be purchasing new packs for each batch I do.



> Did you leave fermenter uncorked till mass bubbling stopped then cork once it could be contained?


Fermented uncorked with foil loosely over top for about a month, then added cork when moved to cellar



> In doing the mash do you think it would matter if each 'step' up of temp was done as fast as the burner could work? Or do you need pre prepared water to make instantaneous 'step'?


Turbid mashing is as much about what you drain off to the mash kettle and denature early (want lots of undigested starches, proteins and dextrins for the other bacteria to chew on long into the fermentation) as it is about what stays in the Mash tun. So you'll need to add water back to the tunn for these losses. Since your doing this you may as well kill two birds with the one stone and achieve the next rest temp with the addition also. 

Good luck
And long live the Victoria Park Brett Strain!

Asher


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## ausdb (8/4/08)

Asher said:


> Well nearly 12 months on from the first pLambic attempt. Upon tasting, the beer is still quite bitter due to the debittered hops we used actually being quite bitter!
> Pictured are two corked polycarbonates containing pLambic & one siliconed bunged containing a Flanders Red Ale.
> View attachment 18092


Asher I'm glad this thread has come back to the top, I was wondering what sort of temps you managed to maintain in your "cellar pit" especially over the last summer we had?


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## kook (16/4/08)

Brewed another pLambic (60% Pils, 40% Flaked Wheat) on the weekend with the assistance of Insight.

We tried the Cantillon schedule outlined in Wild Brews (modified to dough in at 1L/kg). Went reasonably well, though we didn't need to add as much water for each step as prescribed. Must have been due to the changed dough in liquor amount?...



Doughing in at 1L/kg - It really just wets the grain, nothing else.



First runnings to be raised to 88 - Milky, turbid and glutenous.



Mash after the final sparge



Into the carboy after a 4hr boil with hop flowers from 1997 (cheers Insight!).

Now it's a waiting game....


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## schooey (4/8/08)

Any tasting updates, Asher?


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## kook (10/8/08)

I'm not Asher but I'll pipe up on this thread anyway.

Bottled my Flanders Kriek yesterday - 13 month old Flanders Red, aged for another 4 months on cherries. Had a few tastes from the bottling bucket, seemed good but still a little lacking in acidity for my tastes.

Also bottled two all-brett beers, a berliner weisse and dark funky thing. I was really impressed with the "Dark Funk", it's got a good whack of tartness, yet still has some nice plum-like flavours from the dark candi syrup. I stuck 7L worth of it with 3L of red wine must - will see what happens. Did the same with one of the all brett beers.


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## Weizguy (10/8/08)

kook said:


> I'm not Asher but I'll pipe up on this thread anyway.
> 
> Bottled my Flanders Kriek yesterday - 13 month old Flanders Red, aged for another 4 months on cherries. Had a few tastes from the bottling bucket, seemed good but still a little lacking in acidity for my tastes.
> 
> Also bottled two all-brett beers, a berliner weisse and dark funky thing. I was really impressed with the "Dark Funk", it's got a good whack of tartness, yet still has some nice plum-like flavours from the dark candi syrup. I stuck 7L worth of it with 3L of red wine must - will see what happens. Did the same with one of the all brett beers.


Onya Kook, keeping the dream alive.

Have ya shared the Berliner with Pat yet?
When can I drink the PLambic and the raspberry Wit?
I wanna taste them at their best.
Happy to review them here, if that's acceptable  

Could B a wordy review.
more offline L8r
Les


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## Tony (11/8/08)

Well after all my infections latly im still a bit sickened at the idea but.............

I have ordered a couple of the Cantillon beers to try. ITs just something a brewer has to do i guess.

A couple of questions.

Aged hops.......... what are the best hops to use.......... variery, flowers or pellets, and whats the best way to go about aging them?

And where did you get the corks for the plastic water bottles?

One more question......... unmalted wheat! Is it ok to just get it at the local stock feed co-op or it there a brewing grade available?

cheers


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## gap (11/8/08)

Tony said:


> One more question......... unmalted wheat! Is it ok to just get it at the local stock feed co-op or it there a brewing grade available?
> 
> cheers



Tony,

I got my Organic Raw Wheat from a food Co-op. Maybe try a health food shop. Not sure about stock food ,unless you know it has no additives.

Regards

Graeme


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## Asher (11/8/08)

> Any tasting updates, Asher?


No notes as yet. pLambic is hybernating deep in the Junctyard pLambic Cave(AKA-car service pit) over winter. Will pull out for a tasting in spring



> A couple of questions.
> 
> Aged hops.......... what are the best hops to use.......... variery, flowers or pellets, and whats the best way to go about aging them?
> 
> ...



I think any old low %AA hop will do. Just pick your favoured one as you may get some slight background flavours coming through. 
I use flowers now. Have used debittered pellets but was disappointed with result - read back in this thread
Had a kilo plug of Cluster I used for the 2008 batch that spent a couple of years aging in paper bags in Juncthouse. I also purchased half a kilo of NZ golding flowers earlier this year for future batches. Their low AA and should be nice and cheesy after a hot Perth summer in the rafters.

The corks came from my LHS. G&G have them also I think.

I use raw white wheat from my local markets. Available by the kilo.

I've bottled some Kreik also and plan to enter that in the local comp later this year. It's not acidic enough but was made from the infamous Victora Park Brett plague of 2006. have also bottled my Flemish brown ale that is a little bland(due mainly to my hastyness of adding a kolsch yeast to it to see its gravity reduce). So I'll be using kooks recipe and upping the unfermentables to try and get some serious grand cru acidity this year + letting ferment out over the heat of summer in the cave.

Asher for now


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## kook (11/8/08)

Asher said:


> So I'll be using kooks recipe and upping the unfermentables to try and get some serious grand cru acidity this year + letting ferment out over the heat of summer in the cave.



You may want to consider adding a larger culture of lactobacillus, or re-pitching some used flanders cake to get some real acidity happening. I'm really impressed with the WYeast berliner weisse blend so far, I think a combination of this and Roselare would be awesome.


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## sinkas (11/8/08)

If any Perth people wnat any raw wheat, let me know as I have about 40Kg I have never used, its even fking organic!

Kook:
anychance of bringing a sample of the Pliney to tonights meeting of the WCB?


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## kook (11/8/08)

sinkas said:


> If any Perth people wnat any raw wheat, let me know as I have about 40Kg I have never used, its even fking organic!
> 
> Kook:
> anychance of bringing a sample of the Pliney to tonights meeting of the WCB?



Will do - though I'm not impressed with it, my attempt tastes totally different to the way I remember it. Will see what you think.


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## Tony (11/8/08)

OK...... no worries.

Thanks for the info folks.

If i want to have a go at this im looking a 2 or 3 years before i can even start once i de-bitter the hops.

Should have one in the galss by 2012

Asher......... you listed some g/hectoliter rate for the hopping. How many grams did you use in 50 liters mate?

I think i may put brew like a monk and wild brews on the fathers day list 

cheers


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## Quintrex (11/8/08)

Tony said:


> OK...... no worries.
> 
> Thanks for the info folks.
> 
> ...



There are procedures for debittering hops by "cooking" them in the oven on low heat(might have been 90 deg C?) for an hour and a half.
Most hopping rates that I have seen list 6g/l for lambics

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that you are now "re-infecting" your brewery  
both really good book choices too, 

Q


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## Tony (11/8/08)

If i do have a go at it....... and it will depend on my opinion of the Lambics i have on their way in the post.......... it will not be in any gear that has anything to do with the rest of my brewing.

Will do as the others have done and use a couple of old water bottles and chuck them out afterwards. May even invest in a glass carboy and just use it for a batch each year.

cheers


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## Quintrex (11/8/08)

Tony said:


> If i do have a go at it....... and it will depend on my opinion of the Lambics i have on their way in the post.......... it will not be in any gear that has anything to do with the rest of my brewing.
> 
> Will do as the others have done and use a couple of old water bottles and chuck them out afterwards. May even invest in a glass carboy and just use it for a batch each year.
> 
> cheers



I was just having a friendly jab at ya :icon_cheers: , if you do decide to get into it investment in a glass carboy is best, 
but as you say, see how you like them first.

Q


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## Tony (11/8/08)

I knew that mate.......... and believe me........ i have asked myself the same questions!

:blink: 

I must be mad.

My 2 long term projects are a sour belgian something and mead.

cheers


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## revdrjbob (12/8/08)

Hiya all,
I've just recently made the great leap into Plambic brewing after much humming and procrastinating. At the moment I have 15Ltrs fermenting in oak in the garage on a Wyeast Lambic blend. I followed (as close as possible for my first) the Turbid mash schedule from Wild Brews, with the 2 hour boil, and I've got to say that the Turbid mash sucks. 4 hours of mashing? Screw that, but I did manage to get 10 extra gravity points than expected out of it! Anyways, 60% pale to 40% _malted_ wheat and 120g of badly treated 2004 EKGs.

Anyways, fermenting at the moment, and I'm dead keen on full Brett ferments too. Recently brewed a Framboise of sorts with Orval dregs in the secondary. I'm not too sure how long the dregs are meant to take to Brett it up, but after almost 2 months, I'm still waiting... Looking at purchasing a 300Ltr used wine barrel for future Plambic ferments. Am I insane?

TIM


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## Insight (25/1/09)

Went to check on my pLambic experiment under the house today, and the recent warm weather seems to have kicked things along! The beer is sitting at about 25 degrees right now, which is about the max it should have been since brewing in July. As you can see there is a serious pellicle formation on both carboys, though I'm not seeing any of the ropey strands I have seen in other pics just yet. I not be taste testing until the pellicle drops, can't wait!


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## kook (25/1/09)

Insight said:


> Went to check on my pLambic experiment under the house today, and the recent warm weather seems to have kicked things along! The beer is sitting at about 25 degrees right now, which is about the max it should have been since brewing in July. As you can see there is a serious pellicle formation on both carboys, though I'm not seeing any of the ropey strands I have seen in other pics just yet. I not be taste testing until the pellicle drops, can't wait!



Looking good!

I've got a Belgian Pale that I plan on racking tomorrow, and adding Brett L, Pedio and Lacto to. I need to order some more bottles next week and bottle the druivenbiers, some flanders red and also a little demijohn of "jong" plambic. If only bottling was an easier task 

I plan on doing a double batch of Flanders Red and double batch of pLambic this year. The plambic will be split, half in a better bottle, the other in glass. I'm interested to see the difference in them over time.


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## Spoonta (26/1/09)

kook said:


> Looking good!
> 
> I've got a Belgian Pale that I plan on racking tomorrow, and adding Brett L, Pedio and Lacto to. I need to order some more bottles next week and bottle the druivenbiers, some flanders red and also a little demijohn of "jong" plambic. If only bottling was an easier task
> 
> I plan on doing a double batch of Flanders Red and double batch of pLambic this year. The plambic will be split, half in a better bottle, the other in glass. I'm interested to see the difference in them over time.




do you want a hand Spoonta (Michael)


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## kook (13/4/09)

kook said:


> Also bottled two all-brett beers, a berliner weisse and dark funky thing. I was really impressed with the "Dark Funk", it's got a good whack of tartness, yet still has some nice plum-like flavours from the dark candi syrup. I stuck 7L worth of it with 3L of red wine must - will see what happens. Did the same with one of the all brett beers.



Well - I went to taste (and finally bottle) the two druivenbiers today.

The one that was blended with dark funk has ended up ok. It has some nice grape notes, but it is also pretty damn sour. Will see how it comes up in the bottle.

The other one (brett blonde blended), well, lets just say I've tasted more drinkable balsamic vinegar :lol:
I guess you win some and lose some when it comes to these experiments. I've bottled the first, but the second one is going to the sewers. I thought about bottling it as vinegar, but I don't think it's good enough 


Will be blending and bottling Flanders Red in a minute once my priming syrup has finished boiling.


Anyone else been tasting their wild creations?


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## revdrjbob (14/4/09)

kook said:


> Anyone else been tasting their wild creations?


Kook,
I tsted my pLambic off the oak about a month ago now, and all I can say is "_Bring the Funk!_" Was well funky and super sour, plus plenty of oakyness too it as well - obviously. It'll be a year old in 4 months time. Will start on the 2nd batch soon for getting a solera going, possibly looking at a 300Ltr batch to split with other local wild ale freaks. 

TIM


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## warrenlw63 (14/4/09)

Happy this one has been dragged up. Now I have my glass carboys back after racking my Flanders Red I'm tempted to get a Lambic on the go sooner rather than later.

Has anybody who's used the turbid mash schedule (which I plan to use) care to comment how this turned out?  

Warren -


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## kook (14/4/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Happy this one has been dragged up. Now I have my glass carboys back after racking my Flanders Red I'm tempted to get a Lambic on the go sooner rather than later.
> 
> Has anybody who's used the turbid mash schedule (which I plan to use) care to comment how this turned out?
> 
> Warren -



I tried this 12 months ago (see post #47). I ended up with a little leftover lambic, which went into a 5L demijohn. I'm going to rack this onto some frozen raspberries either tomorrow or Thursday. Will take some pics and let you know how it tastes.


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## warrenlw63 (14/4/09)

Hey thanks kook. Now I know my first "wildbrew" shows some promise I'm fairly keen to keep the whole process going. Makes for some highly interesting HB.  

Next step is to hunt down some unmalted wheat.

Warren -


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## kook (18/4/09)

Well I had a taste of the little demijohn of pLambic '08 today, and blended it with raspberries. The pellicle had subsided on it, and it actually tastes quite mature and balanced. Nice level of acidity, good horsey funk there too.

Took some pics in the process:



"Funky Belgian Pale". Just a BPA, fermented with a blend of 3522 and 3526, then racked to a better bottle along with Brett L, Pedio and Lacto. Nice pellicle on it now. Theres a sweet mead hiding behind it too.



From the left: some Flanders Red '07 (other fermenter was blended/bottled), pLambic '08, pLambic '07. You can see the older plambic has much less pellicle now. Lots of "sour beer" accessories too - keep seperate fermenters, racking tubes, airlocks, bungs etc for all the funky beers.



Ready for the plambic!



Little demijohn...


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## 3G (18/4/09)

Nice work kook, they look interesting but a little scary. One day i will venture into Lambics.


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## schooey (7/4/10)

Any recent updates, kook?


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## mika (7/4/10)

I heard that one got thrown as it turned into concentrated balsamic vinegar. Regular listeners of the BN will have heard about an Autralian brewed beer labelled the 'Dark Funk' that got tasted on air, I think on the same programs as the BNA's. You should be able to figure out who it came from


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## Asher (30/8/10)

Did my yearly car pit cellar tasting of the pLambics on the weekend. The plan was to blend up the 3yo with some 1yo but decided to leave it as a vintage and just bottled the whole 2008 batch in Champaign bottles c/w corks & caps. The 2009 vintage is tasting watery, musty and danky. I think its destined for the sewer. The 2010 batch has formed a good pellicle and is tasting surprisingly full of life. a good level of acidity & funk with an amazing spritzyness that I put down to cool winter fermenting. Decided to just leave this batch to see how it develops for another couple of years. I'll definitely be repeating the recipe from the 2010 batch next year.

While on the topic of funk:

Here are some pics I took of a 6 month old Funk Pellicle from a batch of Flanders Brown Ale. I pitched with a Wyeast 3763PC Roeselare Ale Blend
Its fermenting in a BetterBottle.
I am no longer fermenting anything in Polycarbonate - My side-by-side tests (against BetterBottles) with pLambics over 4 years has left any beer in it badly oxidised.

Now, back to carpet bombing (19!! )


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## Stuster (30/8/10)

What pretty bubbles! 

Interesting about the Better Bottles. I found the Flanders Reds did not have a noticeable amount of oxidation but they were only in plastic for a year or less. My lambic is in glass as I did think that would save me worrying about the issue.

Would be interested to see your lambic recipe. Did you think the turbid mash had a positive effect?


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## Asher (30/8/10)

The base recipe is still the same 60% Pils Malt, 40% Raw White Wheat
The turbid mash rests are still the same as the schedule. Just tweaked water additions & Temps to suit my system

I think the resultant starch-rich wort from the turbid mash is key to a full complex flavour development over the two year Lambic ferment. Having something in reserve for the slow eaters is needed. You could probably cheat here and just add some flour to the boil to achieve something similar. But its as much a path travelled thing for me.

Biggest change to the recipe is the de-bittered hops. 5-6g per litre impart a lot of something to the beer.
I've been building up a base of de-bittered hops after the first years disaster. (We ordered some de-bittered hops from the US and I swear they had a %AA above 10!!)
Remember back in the early AHB days when GLS organised the Tassie Hop Flower bulk buy. I had a 1kg plug of cluster + some Tettnanger laying around. So I broke these up and put them in a dodgy 40l plastic non sealable storage container in the rafters of my hot shed for a couple of years. This is the base stock I use now and have some NZ Goldings flowers in paper bags hanging ready to blend in in a couple of years time. Its like making a very slow stock.... Makes entering a hot shed in summer nearly enjoyable. + you know when their ready by the smell that greets you!

Still using WY Lambic Blend. 1 pack per fermenter & no starter now + Add a little something special from my favourite Lambic brewery on brewday 

Asher


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## raven19 (30/8/10)

Thanks for continual updates Asher. I really enjoy reading this thread each time it crops up.

Awesome pics too.


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## winkle (30/8/10)

Ditto Asher, makes me really feel I should get off my lazy a*se and get a Flanders Red or a pLambic happening :icon_cheers: .


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## BrenosBrews (30/8/10)

I started reading this thread at work today & it got me all riled up and wanting some lambic. Went via Cloudwine on way home and they had closed 2 hours early!
Bottles of various Cantillon sitting there only a mere 2 metres away.


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