# Fox Den Brewing - Electric Control Panel Build



## mofox1 (7/2/15)

It's finished! :super:

Well, nearly...

After about 7 months of planning and acquiring the various bits and pieces I started building my electric brewery control panel over the Christmas / new years break.

The build is a close clone of the control panel found at theelectricbrewery.com, with some changes that I found either more useful, simple, or aesthetically pleasing.

The current features are:
* PID temperature display/control for two 5500w elements (HLT - acting as a HERMS, and Boil Kettle)
* Sestos Temperature display for Mash
* Timer
* Independant control of two pumps (wort & water)
* Voltage & current indicator
* Switching logic to ensure only one element can be selected at a time
* Key switch on, with safe start interlock.
* Built in RCD / 32A breaker
* Indicators for power, pump & element selection, element firing, including one light to indicate power present to the panel.
* Buzzer alarm that can be activiated by timer, PIDs or incorrect switch settings.
* RTD probes with XLR disconnects
* Twist lock power connectors

The panel design also includes the layout and capacity for control of a third element (separate HX unit) without requiring additional panel cutouts or rearranging any of the existing external or internal components. 


*Prototyping:*

After I had more or less worked out what features I wanted, and purchased components accordingly, I set about mocking up the panel with laminated print outs & paper templates.










After a bit more mucking about, I transferred the template to the panel and worked out the layout of the internal components.










The components above are:
3 x 80A DPST mechanical relays (240VAC coils)
1 x 8 pin relay (used for safe start interlock)
1 x 32A RCD/breaker
+ some screw down terminals + fuses for the power busses. I decided to fuse the majority of the wiring at 5A, with the PIDs, timers, lights etc on a 250mA fuse. If I was doing this again I probably wouldn't bother with the 250mA, and the 5A is really only there for the pumps.

Note the space next to the RCD has been reserved for an additional relay for the HX element.

Now I just needed to wait until I had some time off work to put the plans into action...


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## mofox1 (7/2/15)

*Build:*

Build work commenced with the heatsink panel, followed up by the front panel and bottom plate of the enclosure:












It took quite a collection of tools to get the job done! There was the jigsaw for the rectangular holes, the step drill for the 16mm holes, a 22mm punch for the 22mm holes, and some hole-saws for the pump/element power connections. Plus a broken pilot bit or two.

_Note to self: Punches work fantastic and only take about 10 seconds when kept suitably lubricated. They work like complete crap if the threads are dry._

Liberal amounts of JB Cold Weld permanently joins heat sink panel to the body of the enclosure:







Primed and painted with a charcoal hammered metal spray finish:


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## mofox1 (7/2/15)

*Assembly:*

It's at about this time I start grinning like a moron while looking at the barebones enclosure, and just _*imagining*_ the whole thing in brew boiling beauty.... but now it's time to mount some of the components. Those that didn't come with rubber gaskets get a bit of silicone to keep the enclosure mostly dust & water proof (I'm not going to be testing this scenario :unsure.










The back panel is now installed and wiring has commenced. A tap set was used to make the screw holes in the back panel and made mounting the components a breeze. The power receptacles needed to be wired up prior to mounting otherwise some of the screw terminals would not have been accessible.







And now the finished wiring is all is glory. Back panel:






Back panel - base view:






Inside front panel:







Other than the fat 4mm2 wire for the power in & elements, I used 1.5mm2 wire almost everywhere else. This was complete overkill (but readily available) and resulted in some swearing trying to get connections right. If I was doing it again I'd use 0.5mm2 or 0.75mm2 instead for everything (except the pump & bus wiring which I'd keep at 1.5).


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## mofox1 (7/2/15)

*Complete:*

And with no little amount of smugness...






Eaton laser (www.eatonlaser.com.au) did a super job on the labels and the custom logo, and I must give a plug for the great service. Thanks Chris!

The base has connections for three temp probes (XLR), two pumps, two elements and one power input (plus a light to indicate power connected). The blank plate on the base is for an additional socket for a HX unit.






There are also (currently unwired/non-functional) lights and a switch on the front panel for the HX too.







*Testing:*

Power connected to control panel:






This light will be active whenever power is present to the device - intended to be a reminder to turn it off at the wall.

:excl: First power on test:







It works! :beerbang: (well of course it did!)

And that's about as much as I could do with it at that point, as I still needed to wire up pumps, elements, and probes. (Still working on that)...


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## booargy (7/2/15)

A few more may need tissues


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## Crusty (7/2/15)

An exceptional job mate, well done.


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## Fat Bastard (7/2/15)

Bloody lovely!


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## Cervantes (7/2/15)

That's truly a thing of beauty.


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## JB (7/2/15)

Magnificent job Mick, well done you should be feeling smug!


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## Mardoo (8/2/15)

Awesome work Mofox1! Must have been a pleasure to work on. Where's you get the element enclosures shown in your build photo album? Those look great.


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## droid (8/2/15)

damn! If you ever feel like a working holiday in the lakes district of East gippsland shoot me a pm, awesome stuff!


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## droid (8/2/15)

can you control the gate valves for the pumps via the electronics or is that a manual thing?


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## mofox1 (8/2/15)

Mardoo said:


> Awesome work Mofox1! Must have been a pleasure to work on. Where's you get the element enclosures shown in your build photo album? Those look great.


Cheers, it certainly was - the hardest part was waiting for the time to do it. I had pretty much everything sitting in the shed by the end of November just saying "build me.... build me..."

The enclosures came from Jaycar, they're the die-cast "economy" aluminium enclosures 111x60x54 (linky). Don't get the "premium" ones - they have a seal, but the walls are too thick to leave enough of the element thread on the kettle side.


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## mofox1 (8/2/15)

droid said:


> can you control the gate valves for the pumps via the electronics or is that a manual thing?


Pump control is on/off at the switches. Nothing too fancy in the box - the PIDs are about as fancy as you get.


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## droid (8/2/15)

cheers


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## Camo6 (8/2/15)

Very neat work Mick. Can't wait to see the rest of the build.


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## Yob (8/2/15)

and you can drop that off to me at noon.


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## mofox1 (8/2/15)

*Pumps:*

I'm using magnetic drive Kaixin pumps from Keg King. They're nice budget pumps and providing you don't break the head by over-tightening the fittings, they work great.

The only problem is that they come with the standard 1.5m length appliance lead. I'd much rather have a single lead going back to the control panel than playing with extension leads, so the pumps get a bit of a makeover. I replaced the existing lead with a 3m cable, using just some butt crimps inside the rear pump enclosure to connect everything up.

The cable gets some braided sleeving for looks and added protection, and the l used the same style NEMA twist lock plugs as elsewhere in the build.










*Elements:*

Two 5500w Camco ULWD elements are used in the build. Because they draw ~23A, it would be difficult to have the lead disconnect from the kettle in a way that's safe and not massively chunky, so the leads are permanently connected to the element housing.

I'm using a couple of 111x60x54 metal enclosures from Jaycar to house the element terminals. It's possible I could have squeezed them into a smaller enclosure, but I was happy with the way they looked with my current 3500w elements.

Here's the enclosure build in progress - the bare leads will get some ring crimps to securely connect them to the element terminals.






I used a 1-1/4" punch to make the hole in the lid for the element which is then siliconed in place using some seleys 401. The cable (once again with braided sleeving and a NEMA twist lock plug) is secured in place with a water proof metal cable gland.

:excl: A note on the orientation of the housing: because the metal enclosure tapers, I have the larger "lid" end next to the kettle. This means that the box needs to be sealed up prior to installing in the kettle (the screws are on the kettle side), and the element needs to held in place while tightening the 1" lock nut. Failure to hold the element in place may result in the silicone seal being broken, and ending up with wort in the element housing!


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## mofox1 (8/2/15)

Yob said:


> and you can drop that off to me at noon.


HA!

Now do I work on the RTD probes tonight... or keg that RyeIPA? Should also give my Cascade a bit of a squeeze and see how she's going...


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## mofox1 (13/2/15)

Very little progress at the moment...

Replaced the "white" indicators with ones that actually are white (damn you chinabay!) and purchased a chunky extensible TV arm to hang the control panel off.

Still dicking around with temp probes cables... will get around to them soon. Also need to make up a mount for the pumps.

Why is it that when you think you're almost finished, you're not?!


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## _Mick_ (13/2/15)

Wow mate, look incredable.
Where did you get the control pannel enclosure/box/cabnet from?
You have inspired me to start collecting the gear to do my own...


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## mofox1 (13/2/15)

Hey Mick - it was an "Eldon standard enclosure 400 x 400 x 210".

Got it from ebay seller 007csl whom, I believe, must have got it as factory seconds or something as it was $22. Usually see them for $100+ so it was probably the best bargain of the build.

At that time he would get a bunch in to sell every few weeks and they'd go fairly quick... He didn't always have items to sell.

Unless you're omitting a lot of the items, you'll want at least a 400x400x210mm (16x16x8") enclosure. Otherwise it will be *very* hard to fit everything in. That said, there's a lot of "fluff" in the EB style builds (admittedly pretty fluff!), and lots can be cut out w/o compromising functionality (eg - logo, volt/amp meter, timer, alarm + alarm on/off switches, some of the indicators, etc). So work out what you might like to see in the panel, and it should give you an idea of the panel size requirement. Always better to have more room than not.

Good luck


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## _Mick_ (17/2/15)

Awesome, Thanks.

I do like the 'fluff' and if im going to build it, I may aswell include all the fluffy bits that i will probably want in the future anyway...
The only thing I may omit would be the third PID for the BK, I like boiling with gas rather than elec.

Cheers!


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## mofox1 (10/3/15)

Last bits done.

Sliding pump rack. Slides all the way under when not in use, and the tray can be inverted so that the pumps drain.












And the finished rig:






Test run - I think I was pre-heating the HLT for the PID auto-tune:







Massively happy with the 5500w elements - I was getting 1*C rise every ~50sec with 55L water in the HLT.

Now - start brewing!


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## spog (10/3/15)

Excellent setup, the sliding pump tray is a fantastic idea, well done .


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## Mikeyr (10/3/15)

I have the same bench, only I left the wheels on .... this of course now a blueprint, what a sensational set up, fantastic attention to detail on the cabling!

Also that pump set up is awesome, been trying to think of the best way to attach mine to the bench and still be able to drain!


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## mofox1 (10/3/15)

Mikeyr said:


> I have the same bench, only I left the wheels on .... this of course now a blueprint, what a sensational set up, fantastic attention to detail on the cabling!
> 
> Also that pump set up is awesome, been trying to think of the best way to attach mine to the bench and still be able to drain!


Never had wheels on mine - it was a handy imports jobby. Had to lop about 10cm off the legs to get it down to a good brewing height (800mm). Previously the top of the pots was around shoulder level, which was rather awkward and caused at least one decent burn...

I was trying to work out what to do with the pumps for a while, as I enjoyed the freedom of having them "loose" for a few months. I had considered quick release style pins/bolts and a tipping tray until I thought of a sliding/removable tray. Was going to add some stops to prevent it from pulling out (phrasing?!) but have discovered it is not necessary.


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## dannymars (11/3/15)

How much roughly did this build set you back?


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## mofox1 (11/3/15)

dannymars said:


> How much roughly did this build set you back?


Probably good terms with the missus, followed by sobriety and the subsequent grey matter something potato.

As for dollars, not sure. I kept tabs on all the purchases, but not sure I want to hit the total button anymore! I may end up posting it. Or not.


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## mofox1 (16/3/15)

Managed a brew on the weekend - aaaand... it went okay.

Put down two cubes of the Electric Brewery's 'Electric Pale Ale', with additional cube hops (basically this adjusted for no-chill). Cube 1 got an extra 50g of Chinook, cube 2 got the same in Jarlyllo. Will do the 0min additions as a mini-boil later.

Absolutely no issues with the new control panel, works like a dream and couldn't be happier. The elements are great - had to back the heat off the boil because the 56L pre-boil was about to boil over my 90L pots!! And this is w/o the foam mat I used to wrap around the pot with my 15A element.

What I did get was a stuck recirc. Probably let the little guy have too much fun with the crush. Drill speed was way to high, and I ended up with lots of flour, and very little in the way of intact husks.

I found a *heap* of dough-balls and spent about 15mins trying to break them apart - I think I need to re-think my approach to mashing in... instead of adding grains scoop by scoop to a filled mash tun, I just underlet the whole amount without stirring. That and the fact it was half flour.... derp.

It's possible I need a better manifold/false bottom on the esky - but haven't had any issues like this before. All prior recirc has only happened after the full sac rest... so it's also possible that the manifold (braided SS hose) doesn't handle the starchy conditions at the start of mash very well.

Anyway - other than a very long brew day, I filled two cubes with beautifully clear wort, got an extra 4 points on the OG than estimated and got to play with the new toys.

Happy as Larry (Leffer).


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## Nizmoose (16/3/15)

Apocalyptically jealous of that entire setup.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (20/5/15)

Mick fantastic work, super neat looks like a robot built it =D

That boil looks nice and strong, I'm looking at a 3600W + 2400W potentially for my kettle, but had a thought of integrating a potentiometer controlled SSR for the kettle elements to tune it down if I was boiling a single batch for example. What are your thoughts could that fit in easy enough with one of these control panels?


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## mofox1 (21/5/15)

Thanks mate!

Controlled by a PID, you'll be able to set a duty cycle to the elements. Will amount to the same thing as the variable SSR when the period is short enough (few seconds or so).

This would be easier if you've got a 32a supply but will also work with two 15a... would make the guts of the box a bit messier though.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (21/5/15)

Is that duty control pulse width modulation or an agricultural method similar to it? It'd be nice to have a fixed boil off for singles, doubles and triples to make recipe calcs and repeatability easier

Think I can get 32A total to my garage (confirming this weekend) which may be challenging for 2x 3600W


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## MastersBrewery (21/5/15)

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Is that duty control pulse width modulation or an agricultural method similar to it? It'd be nice to have a fixed boil off for singles, doubles and triples to make recipe calcs and repeatability easier
> 
> Think I can get 32A total to my garage (confirming this weekend) which may be challenging for 2x 3600W


Hey you have a whole 2amps to spare for pumps and control piece of cake.

I'm naughty I run 2 2400w over 2 circuits(10amp each) with pump and control (brauduino) I guessing but I recon I might be 1.5 amps short on the supply side. Both cables are rated for 15amps with standard plugs and more than 5m long. Now I've used this for just on a year in two houses and haven't noticed anything even get warm.

32amps should get you real close. Good luck with it.


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## mofox1 (21/5/15)

Yeah - I'd rather have a few amps "in reserve"... I had to turn a 70L boil down to 80% (with a 5.5kW element) on the weekend because it kept threatening to boil over... you'd be good with the 6kW total.

As for the boil off - I run the elements at 100% after the hot break has settled down. Boil off is fairly much a constant - I get 5.5L/hr from a 48m(?) dia pot regardless of whether it is at 70L or 20L. Heh. Once I worked out it was 5.5L/hr and not 5L/hr as per my first rough guesses I stopped being short on the cube fills.

Open offer to come have a look at the rig on a weekend if you want.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (22/5/15)

MastersBrewery said:


> Hey you have a whole 2amps to spare for pumps and control piece of cake.
> 
> I'm naughty I run 2 2400w over 2 circuits(10amp each) with pump and control (brauduino) I guessing but I recon I might be 1.5 amps short on the supply side. Both cables are rated for 15amps with standard plugs and more than 5m long. Now I've used this for just on a year in two houses and haven't noticed anything even get warm.
> 
> 32amps should get you real close. Good luck with it.


Well, I have a PC, sound system, fermenting freezer etc also to run, so thinking 2x15A elements in the kettle may be cutting it a bit fine. Sure I can turn fermenting fridge off for boil duration, but sound system? Hell no I need my brewing tracks pumpin`! I do have a 10A point detached from the garage I could run extension from, but gets messy turning everything off and switching to that for every brew day.




mofox1 said:


> Yeah - I'd rather have a few amps "in reserve"... I had to turn a 70L boil down to 80% (with a 5.5kW element) on the weekend because it kept threatening to boil over... you'd be good with the 6kW total.
> 
> As for the boil off - I run the elements at 100% after the hot break has settled down. Boil off is fairly much a constant - I get 5.5L/hr from a 48m(?) dia pot regardless of whether it is at 70L or 20L. Heh. Once I worked out it was 5.5L/hr and not 5L/hr as per my first rough guesses I stopped being short on the cube fills.
> 
> Open offer to come have a look at the rig on a weekend if you want.


My electrician reckons it's OK to run pretty consistently at near full load, because it's not doing this 24/7, but really at most once a week, but likely once or twice a month each brew day. What size kettle you got? I saw 7200W (3x 2.4kW) boil 40L in an 80L kettle and it got close during hot break stage of the boil but still had a couple inches, we did turn one element off for a minute or so. I like the idea of a potentiometer dial to tune it up/down accordingly, but flicking a switch manually just to get past hot break stage is also OK.

I was reading a great post by Thirsty Boy here (http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/56205-element-sizing-for-electric-kettle/) which simplifies the thermodynamic theory on boil off rate with electric elements, obviously assuming no losses.

So your 5.5kW gives you in reality 5.5 L/hr? Theoretically you should be 8.8L/hr, is your kettle insulated? That's like 37% losses, so I assume it is uninsulated which is how I was planning on going. Working from that it means for double batches I can achieve a bit more than 10% boil off (12.2%) and for triples it falls just short at 8.5%, over the one hour boil (probably could counter for pilsners etc by doing a 2 hr boil).

Seems perhaps the 1x 3.6kW and 1x 2.4kW in my kettle would be about right and not come too close to my 32A total. Going 2x 3.6kW will allow me to get 10% boil off for triples but I would brew them the least I think, plus causes issues on the power supply side.


Wouldn't mind checking out the rig mate thanks for the offer, will PM you 

PS. Sorry for the hijack, this is about *YOUR* lovely control panel!!


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## MastersBrewery (22/5/15)

Last weekend I had 70l in the kettle, no insulation, and to me it didnt seem like excessive time to get to the boil, the pid on the controller was actually holding it back. All on 4800w total. What brewlegth you chasing DJ?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (22/5/15)

Hows your boil off rate though and whats it look like when boiling 70L on 4800W?

Not chasing a time specifically, more wanting to buy the right size once given im replacing 2200W KK original version elements.

Timing to heat 50C to strike with my RIMS in the MLT and then from 50C to sparge in the HLT and 1x 2.4kW and 1x 3.6kW in the kettle seems most flexible and reasonable time to ramp, similar to what i was getting with my BIAB gas rig


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## MastersBrewery (23/5/15)

The boil was rolling well and like I said was held back by PID set to 99.5 (elevation I think playing a roll) boil off was around 15-20% in a 450mm pot (CB100L) I think the 6kw would serve you well. If I had the circuits available here I'd go that way. Have you picked out the elements you will be using, I'm considering the 5 star ones, but I think this next project might be some time in the works. With automated controls wait time for ramping to strike or boil is just a chance to get stuff ready for the next step in the process, so not something I've ever been too concerned with.
As always too much power is barely enough!!


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## DJ_L3ThAL (23/5/15)

Yep definitely the 5-star ones. Do you know if the wiring enclosure has a ground point to simply screw a ring clamp on to or similar? Don't want to have to drill the pwetty stainless. But keen to not run the keg king ones that came on the rig given the feedback/experiences on here, mine are the original version too, so no improvements incorporated whatsoever. I did consider camco and building an enclosure myself, but figure the extra $30ish to just get 5-star is $30 well spent on bling 

Electrician coming over today, fingers crossed I can get the 32A I desire!!!


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## mofox1 (23/5/15)

I'll bung some pics up later, the hlt camco element rusts up regularly, but the one in the kettle doesn't, probably due to the acidic environment of the wort?

Def a stainless base for the hlt if you can manage it.


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## MastersBrewery (23/5/15)

mofox1 said:


> I'll bung some pics up later, the hlt camco element rusts up regularly, but the one in the kettle doesn't, probably due to the acidic environment of the wort?
> 
> Def a stainless base for the hlt if you can manage it.


Brewhardware.com came up with an updated SS version, now I don't know if that's what you have , certainly doesn't sound like it, so only posting so if you consider upgrading/changing due to the rust issues you have another option, they have 5500w wavey ones and others .


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## DJ_L3ThAL (23/5/15)

Cheers for info on SS, 5 star it is then!
Got 32A to my shed, didnt even need a new cable it already had a 6mm^2!!!
Will order the elements this week and get a dedicated 15A port for my 3600W elememts put in a few weeks


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## mofox1 (23/5/15)

Some updates on the elements....

As can be seen in pics below, the base of the camco elements can rust up, although it seems less susceptible when in contact with the wort. At around $25 they were a good deal, but require a bit of cleaning if you don't like rust.

I'm not sure it matters that much, but any replacement elements will be a stainless steel base.

Kettle:




HLT:


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## mofox1 (7/6/15)

Numbers all dialed in - calibrated & re-autotuned.

Happy with this - mash tun went from ~55 to 66 in about 10 min, and ends up lagging the HLT coil by only 0.1 to 0.2 degC.







Also found that my house hot water is around the 60 odd degree mark, so I just tip (most) of a cube into the esky, tip the grains in with a bit of stirring, and while that's settling in I add two cubes of hot water into the HLT and hit the lights. Pretty much all sorted from a water temp point of view.

Only started the brew day at 2pm today, and mash is now finished. 

Right, back to work....


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## DJ_L3ThAL (9/10/16)

Hey Mick, how's the brewventures of late? I'm thinking of going this route (Electric Brewery panel) from scratch. I can't fathom learning Arduino code and building a web interface to use the panel with Arduino Mega that I currently have.


NEMA twist locks - where from? China ebay? How are they faring now quality wise given you've used this a fair bit since the build?
Switches/buttons/lights - any quality issues?
PID's - what type are these? Do you have the full mash steps/times pre-programmed and then just start a mash off where you need it to start for a given beer, or do you just program each mash in for each brew day?
Safe start interlock - is this simply just to ensure nothing will be turned on when you fire up even if switches are inadvertently in the on position?


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## mofox1 (9/10/16)

Hey deej. Brewventures are good... soon to acquire droids 76L SS Brewtech pot to replace the esky mash tun 

The NEMA twist locks were from Amazon/EBay... all american sellers. Dunno if it's still relevant, but these sellers:
eBay – frwoodworking
eBay – thunderduck214
eBay – plourdestoolbox
Amazon (Leviton)

No probs at all with them. They're solid, and the twist lock biz is good.

No real issues with the components... I did break some of the pilot lights during the build, but that was more due to me over tightening. PIDs are Sestos, great units esp for price. Likely identical clones of the Auber PID. Not the ramp/soak (step mash) model, but I haven't found that a problem, it's plenty easy to hit up a few times during a mash when my phone sings at me.

I think the safe start interlock is a good idea... I have accidentally turned the system on before with pump switches on, not elements tho, but I feel a bit better in the sense I can't have a situation where I might dry fire accidentally.

Things I would change:
- Scrap the timer and reset button (I use my phone most times)
- Scrap the alarming (and alarm switches) from the pids, I don't use it. Note - I do use the alarm to sound if I (try to) turn on both elements at once.
- I would add a path for the HLT element control circuit that goes through the water pump switch, whereby the element can only activate if the water pump is on (HLT temp probe is on outlet of HLT, thus need water flow for temp measurement). The opposite path would energise the alarm if the element switch is turned on, and the pump switch is off.
- In terms of overall design a tippy bucket approach for at least the mash and boil would be awesome. Removable plugs into the kettle/hlt would have been great but I couldn't find any solution I was happy with.

Also bigger bench, bigger pots, 3 phase...

Edit - power plug into the control panel is a bit unnecessary and could be scrapped to save at least $50 or more.


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## takai (28/10/16)

Do you remember the supplier for the 80a 240v relays? I can only find ones with 24v coils, and although i could make that LV, it would be the only thing in the box to be LV and hence seems like a waste.


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## mofox1 (29/10/16)

I got them from eBay seller au.deal, they don't look like they still sell them. But same item everywhere... relay model/type is JQX-62F-2Z, 80A 250VAC, 220VAC Coil.

Search for "JQX-62F-2Z 80A 220V Coil" in ebay/ali comes up with the same units.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/JQX-62F-2Z-DPDT-High-Power-Relay-220V-AC-Coil-80A-250V-AC-30V-DC/1969245256.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.37.IE7MXD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2,searchweb201603_1&btsid=9032dac1-5115-4413-9e62-8db3a034e187

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/JQX-62F-2Z-80A-220V-Coil-High-Power-Relay-220V-AC-/290754133193?hash=item43b24bfcc9:g:HZMAAOxyThVTZ0VM


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## takai (29/10/16)

Thanks for that, no idea why it wasnt coming up earlier with the same search terms. eBay seems to be getting even more finicky.

Much appreciated.


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