# Chloramine and Potassium Metabisulfite



## Lecterfan

Hello water gurus.

If I am reading p. 427 of Palmer and Kaminski's "Water" correctly, then I need to use 9mg/l of potassium metabisulfite to treat water that has 3mg/l of chloramine in it?

I've been advised by the water authority that it leaves the plant at that rate and is reduced down to roughly 2mg/l by the time it gets to my suburb, but as I understand it, treating for 3mg/l is safe and has no obvious detrimental effecs.

Futher, if my primitve understanding is correct, then the only thing I need to watch is the residual (don't know if that is the correct word in this context) sulphates, as in my early days of brewing I made some horrid beers with excess sulphates, so I will need to take that into account when brewing darker and/or malt driven beers.

The last water report for my region showed 34mg/l sulphate and 43mg/l chloride, so a few extra mg/l of either/both should be fine for general light-darkish ales etc. (apparently it adds 2.7 mg/l sulphate and 1 mg/l of chloride, so negligible effects).

Any helpful comments/reassurances/corrections?

Cheers,
LF.


Edit: tried to attach screen shot of text - didn't work.


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## manticle

Before treating - are you noticing issues related to chlorine?

If metabisulphite addition is required, try minimal additions and tweak upwards if results warrant.
My understanding is that sulfate contribution from campden is minimal unless you majorly od.

Drsmurto would be my goto on this though. PM


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## Lecterfan

Yes, an obvious flavour difference that changes the moment I use different water - i.e. Billygoat's tank water or store bought. I don't know if it is a "flaw" (i.e. related to chlorophenols etc), but all I can say is that the chlorine-type taste (a kind of sharpness that tastes, well, a lot like my tap water) of the water persists in the beer and while it suits some APAs, it is detracting from English ales and lagers (imho). Edit: I have confirmed it is chloramine and the rates with Central Highlands Water.

I've messed around with water in the past but as of yesterday I have a heap more research time on my hands and am not letting it go idle.


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## manticle

Did you become a doctor?


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## Matplat

This is the bit in Bru'n'water about metabisulphite... thanks Martin 


Metabisulfite (Campden Tablet) addition is effective for chlorine and chloramine removal. The tablets are either potassium metabisulfite or sodium metabisulfite. Both are effective in disinfectant removal. When sodium content in the brewing water is a concern, potassium metabisulfite may be preferred. Moderate potassium content in brewing water generally has little effect on brewing performance or taste. Adding these compounds at a rate of about 9 milligrams per liter (~9 milligrams per liter or ~1 tablet per 75 liters) will dechlorinate typical municipal water and leave residual concentrations of about 3 ppm potassium or 2 ppm sodium (depending on the chemical used) and 8 ppm sulfate and 3 ppm chloride. These ion contributions are relatively insignificant and can be ignored in practice.


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## Lecterfan

manticle said:


> Did you become a doctor?


 I submitted, I wait for the examiners to decide on the next bit. Still lecturing/tutoring, probably return to psych part-time next year to finish off the vocational quals as another feather in the cap.


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## Matplat

Dunno if the flavour you describe is due to chlorine, I got hit by chlorine the first time I brewed with town water, having previously used tank water.

The flavour of band-aid was unmistakable and un-drinkable. Been using sodium metabisulphite ever since with no probs...


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## manticle

Lecterfan said:


> I submitted, I wait for the examiners to decide on the next bit. Still lecturing/tutoring, probably return to psych part-time next year to finish off the vocational quals as another feather in the cap.


Good effort and good luck


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Lecterfan said:


> If I am reading p. 427 of Palmer and Kaminski's "Water" correctly, then I need to use 9mg/l of potassium metabisulfite to treat water that has 3mg/l of chloramine in it?
> 
> Any helpful comments/reassurances/corrections?


Never take anything in Palmer as gospel, he doesn't seem to check his references.

The stoichiometric ratio is 4.3 : 1 against his 3 : 1. ( PMS is 222.3 g /mole, Chloramine is 51.5) so you'd need 13 mg/l of PMS to take out 3 mg/l of chloramine.



Lecterfan said:


> I don't know if it is a "flaw" (i.e. related to chlorophenols etc), but all I can say is that the chlorine-type taste (a kind of sharpness that tastes, well, a lot like my tap water)


Chlorophenols smell nothing like chlorine. They range from operating theatre to dank cellar through to wet carpet.


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## MHB

Hard to find a chance to work stoichiometric into a sentence...

And yes chlorophenols smell and taste a lot different to Chlorine or Chloramines for that matter.




I think US water suppliers use a lot more Chloramines than we do, in Australia I think a lot more Cl gas is used, Worth asking some serious questions of your utility before using too much Bisulphite.

Mark


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## manticle

My main experience of chlorephenols is good beer with dettol in it.

That and some of the islay single malts.


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## rude

MHB said:


> Hard to find a chance to work stoichiometric into a sentence...
> 
> And yes chlorophenols smell and taste a lot different to Chlorine or Chloramines for that matter.
> 
> 
> 
> Capture.JPG
> 
> I think US water suppliers use a lot more Chloramines than we do, in Australia I think a lot more Cl gas is used, Worth asking some serious questions of your utility before using too much Bisulphite.
> 
> Mark


Hey Mark do you have the site reference to the beer faults off flavours list 

You posted a while ago which I saved but comp has died & it is lost

It is a great reference

Cheers Rude


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## Feldon

MHB said:


> Hard to find a chance to work stoichiometric into a sentence...
> 
> And yes chlorophenols smell and taste a lot different to Chlorine or Chloramines for that matter.
> 
> 
> 
> Capture.JPG
> 
> I think US water suppliers use a lot more Chloramines than we do, *in Australia I think a lot more Cl gas is used, *Worth asking some serious questions of your utility before using too much Bisulphite.
> 
> Mark


My understanding is water here is usually chlorinated by the addition of hypochlorite either in powder form or in a water solution (ie. bleach). Very few water authorities risk using raw chlorine gas because it is too hazardous to transport and handle, especially in populated areas.


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## Lecterfan

Ok just to clarify. I have spoken directly with the water management in Ballarat. The White Swan res is my water source, I have a run down of its components and it contains chloramine - not chlorine - at 3mg/l (treated at the outflow point) and estimated at around 2mg/l when it is at my tap.

As I said, I am not suspecting chlorophenols (I said I didn't know, and it is certainly not dettol or band aids or any of those things) and I have done numerous brews with different waters and water profiles and there is a persistent taste in my beers that is not an identifiable fault or flaw or making it undrinkable or especially unpleasant, but:
a. it is there,
b. I prefer my beer when it is NOT there,
c. b happens when I brew with rainwater or purchased water,
d. the taste is kind of a side and back palate thing and it tastes a hell of a lot like my drinking water.

I've been AG brewing for a good many years now and am at the point of refining rather than radically altering.

Anyway thanks for the bits and pieces, as is the only way to know, I will try it at the rate suggested and see what happens.

Edit: further to this there is a similar taste present in some other Ballarat based homebrewers beers, and when I used Billygoat's tankwater (which I did across 4 different batches etc etc) then my beers tasted a lot like his - not as well attenuated or generally as brilliant haha - but easily enough for me to notice a significant and obvious difference.


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## MHB

rude - Catch
View attachment Complete_Beer_Fault_Guide.pdf

I find I really useful thing to keep on my desktop.
Mark


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## Benn

There is also the "Beer Judge" app, it encompasses; Off flavours, flavour wheel, SRM spectrum etc.
I'd post a link but I daren't risk offending the i bashers.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Lecterfan said:


> Ok just to clarify. I have spoken directly with the water management in Ballarat. The White Swan res is my water source, I have a run down of its components and it contains chloramine - not chlorine - at 3mg/l (treated at the outflow point) and estimated at around 2mg/l when it is at my tap.


In which case the Palmer recommendation of 9 mg/l PMS will be just fine.


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## rude

MHB said:


> rude - Catch
> 
> 
> 
> Complete_Beer_Fault_Guide.pdf
> I find I really useful thing to keep on my desktop.
> Mark


Kept my eye on it and straight in the mits 
Cheers mate it is a good guide


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## Reman

If you are worried about Metabisulphite then you can also use ascorbic acid to neutralise chlorine and chloramines

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/vitamin-c-for-chlorine-chloramine-removal.76953/


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> Never take anything in Palmer as gospel, he doesn't seem to check his references.
> 
> The stoichiometric ratio is 4.3 : 1 against his 3 : 1. ( PMS is 222.3 g /mole, Chloramine is 51.5) so you'd need 13 mg/l of PMS to take out 3 mg/l of chloramine.


I was wrong.

The stoichiometric ratio is 2.15: 1 because one mole of metabisulphite generates two moles of sulphite which neutralise two moles of chloramine, not one as the above implies.

My apologies for the error.

What was that about not checking references?


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## Mikeyr

Reman said:


> If you are worried about Metabisulphite then you can also use ascorbic acid to neutralise chlorine and chloramines
> http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/vitamin-c-for-chlorine-chloramine-removal.76953/


Ok guru's go at it! I prefer the idea of vitamin c over camden tabs. Too many old hiking and cross country skiing water treating , shitty tea tasting memories. Even knowing that in the doses we are talking about should be impossible to discern.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

The reaction in this case *is* 1:1, so the application ratio is 3.4 : 1 for ascorbic acid (176.1 g/mole vs 51.5 for chloramine) and almost 4:1 for sodium ascorbate (198.1 g/mole). Accordingly, if your water has ~ 2 mg/l chloramine, you'd need to add 7 mg/l ascorbic or 8 mg/l sodium ascorbate.

Trouble with this is that if you want to treat say 20 litres of water you'd need to add 140mg ascorbic and unless you're a drug chemist that's probably hard to do accurately. You could make up a stock solution but ascorbic is notoriously unstable in solution so you'll need to stabilise it. Ironically the standard way to do this is to add metabisulphite and adjust the pH to around 5. Store the solution in a glass bottle in the fridge, preferably after purging the headspace. Plastics like PE are permeable to oxygen.

An easier way to stabilise it would be to make it up at double strength and cut it 50% with commercial lemon or lime juice.


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## peteru

Scales with 0.1g resolution are not difficult to get for a few bucks from eBay. Ascorbic acid is easy to get too, and cheap, so you could make a solution, use what you need immediately and discard the rest.

Or even better, rather than discarding, just mix with a bit of fruit juice for flavour and drink it.


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## Mikeyr

peteru said:


> Scales with 0.1g resolution are not difficult to get for a few bucks from eBay. Ascorbic acid is easy to get too, and cheap, so you could make a solution, use what you need immediately and discard the rest.
> 
> Or even better, rather than discarding, just mix with a bit of fruit juice for flavour and drink it.[f/quote]
> 
> Yep have some, usually measuring grains (the unit of measure, not malt, one by one) food for thought


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## MHB

Yes but 0.1g is 100mg, so if the scales are saying 0.1g the real weight on them is over 0.05g and less than 0.15g and another 0.01 of a g and the scales will say 0.2g.
Weighing 140mg on 0.1g dealer scales is giving you something like a 50% error, not really up to snuff.
Good rule of thumb is that scales need to have one more place than you are using, so if you wanted to measure 0.14g accurately you should have 0.001 resolution. In this case 0.01 would do, for production work, but not for R&D.
Mark


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## peteru

I was thinking of measuring out something like 2.8g and dilute in 200g of water. You end up with a solution that has 1,400mg/100g. Use 10g of the solution to get your 140mg dose. The margin of error for the intended purpose (i.e treating brewing water where the chloramine content is guesstimated) is perfectly acceptable.

If you are going to do R&D work, you are very likely to have the equipment and skills already.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Mark, I know that the action of dehydroascorbic acid as an electron carrier enhancing oxidation can be a problem in finished beer if there's not enough SO2 present, what I don't know is whether the dehydroascorbate produced by the reduction of the chloramine will end up in the beer.

I've checked through both Briggs and Priest and there's no metion of this, do you know of any up to date research?


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## MHB

I spent a bit of time last night looking at a few related questions.
Where the question lies for me is that the chemical Cl removal methods other than activated carbon filters all rely on pretty powerful Antioxidants. How sure are we that the antioxidants are reacting with Cl exclusively and that some of it isn't consuming dissolved O2, and leaving some of the Cl behind.

In a commercial brewery, water is likely to be filtered, carbon filtered to remove halides and other organic chemicals, de-aired, then adjusted to suit the water chemistry requirements of what is being brewed.

I'm a little concerned that we are talking about just chucking in various chemicals in what is going to amount to a fairly random way - without any way to monitor the effectiveness of the process.

If there is a surplus of quite powerful antioxidants how will they affect the beer? (see LC above) short answer is I don't know, there appears to be a real shortage of pro/research brewers tossing these type of chemicals into their beer and talking about it! Maybe there are bashful or just chagrin but they ain't talkin.

If you have issues with Cl/NH2Cl, I think at this point I would filter (get the right carbon it will remove NH2Cl). Or boil and de-air my brewing water - all pretty low tech but known to be effective without the potential for unknown side-effects.
Mark


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

MHB said:


> How sure are we that the antioxidants are reacting with Cl exclusively and that some of it isn't consuming dissolved O2, and leaving some of the Cl behind.


Pretty sure: the reactions with chlorine and chloramine are highly preferential.

The result of this experiment is fairly conclusive*: even in the presence of 50 ppm free chlorine, the addition of ascorbate removed the chlorine in preference to the O2.

Further to your other comments: Ion exchange or RO are commonly used in large breweries for water amelioration. RO will remove chloramine but not necessarily chlorine, which can diffuse across the membrane as a gas. The other thing that works in their favour is that the strike liquor is made up mostly of the output of the wort heat exchanger from the previous brew, so it's spent some time at an elevated temperature.

*Apart from the fact that they wrote chloride when they meant hypochlorite.


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## MHB

And they can afford to measure Cl in any form and dose accordingly.
My main concern is that if we are told the typical concentration (subject to change at the water authorities need) at the water treatment plant, that wont necessarily be what we get at the tap, so most people will be over dosing leaving residual anti oxidants in the brewing water.

Even without RO or a way to measure Cl, there are pretty well proven ways to remove Cl (and most O2) fairly easily at a home brew scale without the undefined possibilities of tossing in chemicals that we don't really know the effect of on our beer.

Mark


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## Mikeyr

Now I'm getting confused, since we are pre-boil aren't we trying to not to aerate/oxygenate the mash? So any 02 reduction isn't a "biggie"

"Tossing in chemicals" seems a bit harsh when all we're discussing is how to get chloramine out, by using a quarter of a standard vitamin c tab in 23 litres of liquid! And won't the boil process destroy the majority of lingering ascorbic acid in any case?

Oh and on scales .....grain not grams was my comment. 1 grain is about 60mg from memory and we measure to 0.1 gr. level. So yeah plus or minus .05 gr / 3mg.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

Mikeyr said:


> won't the boil process destroy the majority of lingering ascorbic acid in any case?


That's the point: the immediate breakdown product of ascorbic acid is dehydroascorbic acid, which is an electron donor and will thus initiate free radical formation*. Dehydroascorbic will further breakdown to diketoglutaric acid and oxalic acid, neither of which will cause such problems.

My question was how far this reaction went in wort. Excess dehydroascorbic is a known problem in beer, causing oxidation in package.

The breakdown product of SO2 is sulphate, so the addition of PMS is very unlikely to cause any problems.



* in the presence of metal ions and the absence of scavengers such as SO2. These conditions are often met in beer post packaging.


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## MHB

Mikeyr said:


> Now I'm getting confused, since we are pre-boil aren't we trying to not to aerate/oxygenate the mash? So any 02 reduction isn't a "biggie"
> 
> "Tossing in chemicals" seems a bit harsh when all we're discussing is how to get chloramine out, by using a quarter of a standard vitamin c tab in 23 litres of liquid! And won't the boil process destroy the majority of lingering ascorbic acid in any case?
> 
> Oh and on scales .....grain not grams was my comment. 1 grain is about 60mg from memory and we measure to 0.1 gr. level. So yeah plus or minus .05 gr / 3mg.


Agreed lots of difference between g and gr and an order or two better, they would be fine, fair to say that the use of grain weight wasn't implicit in your post.
Disagree that I was being harsh, we are talking about removing a chemical that is/can cause problems in brewing at very low levels, there isn't much there and we don't need much to neutralise it.
But we need to know that the cure isn't worse than the problem - I suspect sub gram dosed of the chemicals discussed wont cause any problem, tho we know for a fact the same amount of Chloramine will - at this point "I suspect" I don't know and my only concern is to know what is happening and that we just aren't replacing one problem with another.

As above we could just boil/heat our water before use, with some care we could be reducing/eliminating Cl, Cl-amines, O2 and temporary hardness all in the same step, a well tested method that we know the effects of without any downsides except for time and energy cost.
Just cautioning that before we embrace a whole new approach to replace a proven existing one we understand the consequences.
Mark

Edit Just went out for smoke think
If as LC says (not questioning it) Ascorbic acid ends up being broken down into Oxalic Acid, I would have to be taking a long hard look at how much was ending up in my beer, it takes 3-4 Ca to remove Oxalates and if that doesn't raise a question or two you need to google the role of Oxalates in the formation of beer stone and gushing in packaged beer, then take a another long hard look at your water chemistry and the amount of available Ca in there.
I will now have to sit down and play with the numbers - just assuming can lead to some unexpected outcomes...
Often not in a good way.
M


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## Lyrebird_Cycles

After a bit of further reading I think I can answer my own question.

It appears that ascorbic in the presence of amino acids and heat will participate in non-enzymatic browning reactions, possibly via furfural. Apparently this is a problem in heat treated orange juice, who knew?

It therefore seems unlikely that anything untoward will end up in the beer.


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## BKBrews

Reading this thread, am I safe to assume that a pre-brew day boil of my water and half of a vitamin c tablet while I'm at it will be a major improvement over the brews I've done on my standard supply?


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## Adr_0

BKBrews said:


> Reading this thread, am I safe to assume that a pre-brew day boil of my water and half of a vitamin c tablet while I'm at it will be a major improvement over the brews I've done on my standard supply?


Yes. Congratulations!


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