# Can I Sub Raw Sugar For White?



## Ester Trub (3/11/09)

It's brew day and I'm making a Tripel.
Was going to add 1kg of white sugar at end of boil....
but was just going through my stock and realised I've only got 1/2 a kg left.
Can I substitute raw sugar for white? ie: 1/2kg white, 1/2kg raw. What differences can I expect with my brew? Colour changes maybe? What about flavours?
Thanks


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## HarryB (3/11/09)

I doubt you will notice the difference. I sure someone will see it differently though.


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## reviled (3/11/09)

Personally I wouldnt worry about it and sub the raw for white, I doubt youll notice the difference!

Allthough Raw sugar isnt exactly expensive or hard to find :huh: 

Just saw you have 500gms of each, that should be sweet as! Allthough what % are your sugars over the entire grist?? A kilo is alot of sugar and may affect the beer quite a bit!


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## Swinging Beef (3/11/09)

It may make a bees dick of difference to colour or flavour, but I doubt it.

However,
I would strongly recommend you dont add the simple sugar to a trippel until it is 2/3 fermented or it will end up too sweet as the yeasties are like children and will eat all the simple sugars (cane sugar = dessert), and leave all the complex sugars (malt = meat and veg) for later and have no room in their tummies.

Treat the yeasties like healthy children and make them eat their meat and veg first in the expectaion of dessert.




I have a nasty feeling my similie failed


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## Ester Trub (3/11/09)

reviled said:


> Personally I wouldnt worry about it and sub the raw for white, I doubt youll notice the difference!
> 
> Allthough Raw sugar isnt exactly expensive or hard to find :huh:
> 
> Just saw you have 500gms of each, that should be sweet as! Allthough what % are your sugars over the entire grist?? A kilo is alot of sugar and may affect the beer quite a bit!



The sugar is only 15% of the total grist. Pretty standard for a tripel I think?

I know these things are cheap and generally not hard to find. I'm just being lazy. Can't be arsed going the shops when I can just sub the raw sugar in.
Thanks for the advice guys. :beerbang:


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## Ester Trub (3/11/09)

Swinging Beef said:


> Treat the yeasties like healthy children and make them eat their meat and veg first in the expectaion of dessert.
> 
> 
> I have a nasty feeling my similie failed



LOL :lol: 
No, similie makes sense. Will take your advice.
Thanks


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## altone (3/11/09)

Ester Trub said:


> The sugar is only 15% of the total grist. Pretty standard for a tripel I think?
> 
> I know these things are cheap and generally not hard to find. I'm just being lazy. Can't be arsed going the shops when I can just sub the raw sugar in.
> Thanks for the advice guys. :beerbang:



Raw sugar will make it slightly darker and is a little less convertable - i usually add a tad extra raw sugar when using it instead of white - about 5%
But it's not that critical - especially as it's only a small percentage of the total fermentables.


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## Ross (3/11/09)

boddingtons best said:


> Raw sugar will make it slightly darker and is a little less convertable - i usually add a tad extra raw sugar when using it instead of white - about 5%
> But it's not that critical - especially as it's only a small percentage of the total fermentables.



I'm intrigued by what the 5% unfermentables are in raw sugar? My understanding was that Raw sugar is 98.8% sugar with the balance being a trace of sodium.


Cheers Ross


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## Scruffy (3/11/09)

Ross said:


> I'm intrigued by what the 5% unfermentables are in raw sugar?



Depends what he stores it in... :huh:


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## Jonez (3/11/09)

Plenty of times I have seen people in this forum recommending not use white sugar at all as it "imparts unwanted flavour in your beer". Since no one has mentioned that in this thread, may I ask: is it a requirement for the style the OP is trying to brew to use white/raw sugar?

Edit: I reckon my best beer (coopers Draught kit) was one I brewed with equal amounts of LDME, white sugar and Dextrose. I haven't sued white sugar since then (after reading about it) I have made another 6 Kits or so which all tasted different, but still remember my second brew.


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## manticle (3/11/09)

There's a bit of debate about this topic.

There are suggestions that yeast have a hard time pulling apart sucrose into its individual molecules (glucose and fructose) and that in doing so they produce some unwanted flavours. One way to get around this is to either just use dextrose (basically glucose) or to invert the sugar with acid, heat or both. Some Belgian breweries use straight sucrose and don't taste like cider so nothing is set in stone.

I invert my sugars for Belgian dubbels etc, but this is more to do with colour and flavour from caramelisation than with any concern about cider tastes.

I'd like someone to do a side by side, same recipe brew with the same (and good) processes, eliminating all other possibilities. All grain with white sugar adjunct and all grain with invert sugar adjunct, same fermentation temps, yeast pitching etc - preferab;y someone with more brewing experience than me.


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## crozdog (3/11/09)

manticle said:


> There's a bit of debate about this topic.
> 
> There are suggestions that yeast have a hard time pulling apart sucrose into its individual molecules (glucose and fructose) and that in doing so they produce some unwanted flavours. One way to get around this is to either just use dextrose (basically glucose) or to invert the sugar with acid, heat or both. Some Belgian breweries use straight sucrose and don't taste like cider so nothing is set in stone.
> 
> ...



Jonez, K&K with 1kg white sugar is what is NOT recommended. White sugar in belgians is fine.

Manticle, I don't bother inverting before adding to the kettle anymore as inversion involved boiling the sugar in the presence of an acid. IMHO (& several others) as the boiling wort is acidic, the sugar gets inverted in the kettle. Your experiment sounds good - let us know how it goes.

Swinging Beef, Belgian yeasts tolerate 10-12% alcohol no worries, I've never had an issue with em getting through both the malt & sugar in the golden strongs etc i've made when adding the sugar to the kettle. I always thought that people added extra sugar during ferment to either get the alcohol % up, or as a way to not stress the yeast when they are first inocculated. 

FWIW, I won a 1st in NSW 2 years ago for a GSA made with the technique described above.


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## dr K (3/11/09)

Really, raw sugar is just white sugar that had not had the colour taken out yet (bit like guiness vs urine..or perhaps not). Th imparting a bad taste to your beer is an old wives tale that originated back in the early days of kit/extract brewing, fermented sugar (sucrose) does not of itself throw an apple cider like finish. What was happening was a combination of poor quality extract, poor quality yeast, way too high ferment temps and incomplete fermentation. Where the sugar was a culprit was that it fermented pretty much right out resulting in a much drier beer which accentuated the fusels, nasty esters and acetaldehyde produced by the rest of the process.
Thank goodness all this has changed these days but poor old sucrose ((which btw is broken down during fermentation by an enzyme called invertase into fructose and glucose (or dextrose)) still gets the blame!!

K


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## Jonez (3/11/09)

dr K said:


> Really, raw sugar is just white sugar that had not had the colour taken out yet (bit like guiness vs urine..or perhaps not). Th imparting a bad taste to your beer is an old wives tale that originated back in the early days of kit/extract brewing, fermented sugar (sucrose) does not of itself throw an apple cider like finish. What was happening was a combination of poor quality extract, poor quality yeast, way too high ferment temps and incomplete fermentation. Where the sugar was a culprit was that it fermented pretty much right out resulting in a much drier beer which accentuated the fusels, nasty esters and acetaldehyde produced by the rest of the process.
> Thank goodness all this has changed these days but poor old sucrose ((which btw is broken down during fermentation by an enzyme called invertase into fructose and glucose (or dextrose)) still gets the blame!!
> 
> K


Now that's interesting. I thought there was a consensus here that white sugar was bad for your beer. I wonder why the "German purity law" was established in first case?.. I know I know.. People would have been using many other things in the brews back then. Wouldnt they?


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## manticle (3/11/09)

crozdog said:


> Manticle, I don't bother inverting before adding to the kettle anymore as inversion involved boiling the sugar in the presence of an acid. IMHO (& several others) as the boiling wort is acidic, the sugar gets inverted in the kettle. Your experiment sounds good - let us know how it goes.
> 
> Swinging Beef, Belgian yeasts tolerate 10-12% alcohol no worries, I've never had an issue with em getting through both the malt & sugar in the golden strongs etc i've made when adding the sugar to the kettle. I always thought that people added extra sugar during ferment to either get the alcohol % up, or as a way to not stress the yeast when they are first inocculated.



Personally I've found the addition of an acid (I use a touch of plain white vinegar these days although I have used fresh squeezed orange juice and zest too) adds a little extra flavour. I boil anyway because most of the belgians I brew are darker and therefore I get my candy to a copper colour. The resulting flavour is definitely present in the final product.

I add part way through ferment as SB describes. It's very hard to know if this is necessary or not - I have read in Palmer that yeast may struggle to produce the maltose digesting enzyme if given too much simple sugar too early and the wyeast website recommends incremental feeding for 3787 (which is mainly what I use). Whether it's truly valid or not, I'm not sure but it's easy enough to do and hasn't yet been responsible for bad beer. I believe some breweries such as Duvel add sucrose directly to the kettle so there's nothing definite in my mind.

The experiment was a challenge I was throwing out to any more experienced brewers rather than myself - I have too many variables currently and am concentrating on improving my beer and processes before I attempt any side by sides.

Nonetheless I'll get to it if no-one else ever does.


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## Bribie G (3/11/09)

White sugar: raw sugar. 
Identical brews back in my partial days. Yes I had a kilo of raw and couldn't be arsed to go up the road to ALDI










Also I note that the ALDI raw sugar has been a bit darker and more sticky than the usual stuff from woolies or IGA, maybe depends what mill it comes from.


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## geoffi (3/11/09)

Jonez said:


> Now that's interesting. I thought there was a consensus here that white sugar was bad for your beer. I wonder why the "German purity law" was established in first case?.. I know I know.. People would have been using many other things in the brews back then. Wouldnt they?



I believe the Reinheitsgebot was originally aimed at stopping people from using wheat and rye in beer so there wouldn't be a bread shortage. It was later modified to allow these grains.

In the 16th century nobody would have dreamed of using sugar in beer. It would have been way, way too expensive.


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## Jonez (3/11/09)

Geoffi said:


> I believe the Reinheitsgebot was originally aimed at stopping people from using wheat and rye in beer so there wouldn't be a bread shortage. It was later modified to allow these grains.
> 
> In the 16th century nobody would have dreamed of using sugar in beer. It would have been way, way too expensive.




makes sense. although today people usually mention the law with pride to claim quality.


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## Bribie G (3/11/09)

Swiss, Austrian and of course Belgian beers (countries that border Germany) often use sugars and adjuncts. UK beers have been using grain adjuncts for over 100 years to counter hazes due to high nitrogen barley that resulted from the use of artificial fertilizers towards the end of the 19th century. Sugar started to be used when it got cheap enough, the UK having lots of overseas sugar producing colonies etc.


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## AndrewQLD (3/11/09)

BribieG said:


> Also I note that the ALDI raw sugar has been a bit darker and more sticky than the usual stuff from woolies or IGA, maybe depends what mill it comes from.



Some suppliers of "raw sugar" don't use the first processed sugar at all as raw sugar, rather they will add molasses back into white sugar to make raw sugar along with a wetting agent.
You will probably find that's the stuff aldi use as it would more than likely be a cheap import.

Andrew


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## geoffi (3/11/09)

AndrewQLD said:


> Some suppliers of "raw sugar" don't use the first processed sugar at all as raw sugar, rather they will add molasses back into white sugar to make raw sugar along with a wetting agent.
> You will probably find that's the stuff aldi use as it would more than likely be a cheap import.
> 
> Andrew



I've heard brown sugar is often made the same way.


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## Bribie G (3/11/09)

AndrewQLD said:


> Some suppliers of "raw sugar" don't use the first processed sugar at all as raw sugar, rather they will add molasses back into white sugar to make raw sugar along with a wetting agent.
> You will probably find that's the stuff aldi use as it would more than likely be a cheap import.
> 
> Andrew



Checked the bag - which is rather sticky a bit like demarara sugar - (I always have a few in stock as I get mugged by lorikeets every day) and it's product of Australia. I've toured Millaquin (lived round the corner in Collins Street) and also took the kids round Mossman Mill on tour and I would have thought there would be slight differences due to the different setups at the mills. The ALDI stuff is probably from a mexican mill like Condong h34r:


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## mwd (3/11/09)

Aldi being European probably bring in cheap communist euro sugar which is made from beet and does not have molasses as standard.

theory only no proof of what they do as no Aldi here. :icon_offtopic: .
Wait until they get Netto here how to spot the cheapskate he is the one with the Netto carrier bag. :icon_offtopic:


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## Bribie G (3/11/09)

:icon_offtopic: Apart from the 'specialty goods' in the centre aisles, the vast majority of ALDI food products are Australian. One reason I support them, my son works on a pineapple farm. Go to Woolies or Coles and check where their canned own-brand pineapple comes from. Then check ALDI. good on them. They also contract Australian farmers for their fruit and veg on long term contracts and don't screw them down every season like Woolies do.
I bought some frozen chips from Woolies recently. Origin: *Denmark* ffs don't we grow potatoes in Australia? ALDI source theirs locally. With the fruit veg meat and dairy, any foreign products are clearly stated on the shelf labels.


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