# Ahb Wiki: The No-chiller Method / Using A Cube



## Cortez The Killer

This is the discussion topic for article: The No-Chiller Method / Using A Cube

I wrote this article up yesterday for the wiki about no-chilling. There always seems to be interest in the topic amongst new brewers and there didn't appear to be any article in the wiki covering it. Nor is there a succinct thread about the method.

Also for some reason a discussion topic was not automatically created. Mods please move this into the Wiki forum - I can't start a thread there myself.

Cheers


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## white.grant

Nice article Cortez. I hot packed my first two AGs and found the process pretty straightforward and water efficient.

So far I have only been able to locate 15L cubes at Bunnings and Rays Outdoor etc, and would really like a couple of 20's. Any ideas where they can be found?

cheers

Grant


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## brettprevans

brillient Cortez. 


Let me ask a question for discussion - why we cant no-chill in the kettle? Is it just because its not airtight? What if you can make your kettle air tight?


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## Cortez The Killer

I got my larger ones (20L + 25L more like 23L + 28L) from aussie disposals at the bottom end of wollongong mall 

They also have 30L fermenters there for $20

Cheers


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## Cortez The Killer

citymorgue2 said:


> Let me ask a question for discussion - why we cant no-chill in the kettle? Is it just because its not airtight? What if you can make your kettle air tight?


You can no chill in the kettle - but you'll need to start fermentation as soon as the wort is cool enough 

The advantage of the cube is that you can store the wort (much like canned food for extended periods)

I don't think you would be able to effectivly (and easily) be able to make your kettle air tight 

Cheers


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## vchead

Thanks Cortez. Excellent. 

R


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## Alouyius Phlegm

Nice one Cortez... Appreciate your time and effort regards this... Summed up really easily for the new brewer, me!!!


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## brettprevans

Cortez The Killer said:


> You can no chill in the kettle - but you'll need to start fermentation as soon as the wort is cool enough
> 
> The advantage of the cube is that you can store the wort (much like canned food for extended periods)
> 
> I don't think you would be able to effectivly (and easily) be able to make your kettle air tight
> 
> Cheers


Thats what I thought. Cube option is obviously the way to go for storage. My keetle should end up having a lid that I can put rubber seal around and make relatively airtight so i might consider that.

again great article


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## KHB

cortez what size cube is in the article, i use 25lt ones and mine have to be squeezed a big amount. Ive done 4 no chills with no problems


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## Cortez The Killer

17 litre

My 25 litre one will hold nearly 28 litres 

Lately I've been making concentrated 17 litre batches and topping up with 3 litres at fermentation time

Cheers


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## Cracka

Grantw said:


> Nice article Cortez. I hot packed my first two AGs and found the process pretty straightforward and water efficient.
> 
> So far I have only been able to locate 15L cubes at Bunnings and Rays Outdoor etc, and would really like a couple of 20's. Any ideas where they can be found?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Grant




I got mine from supershit. Oops supercheap. There 20L but hold about 24L


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## Murcluf

Excellent article Cortez, I have been no chilling straight from kettle to fermenter ever since I started brewing and had no issues and couldn't the point to transfer to cube first. But now I have read your article I see the two greatest advantages are storage and dry hopping in the cube. Definitely take it on board and give it go in the near future.

Cheers

Wayne


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## hillbillybreweries

Using the no chill method wracking into a cube how do you ensure you get no hot side aeration?


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## Cortez The Killer

I make sure that the hose is touching the bottom of the cube and make sure there isn't excessive splashing

The existence of HSA is a matter of contention 

But as a matter of course I ensure that there is minimal splashing (if any)

Cheers


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## durgarth

Excellent article, this explains everything very neatly, well done. I have been cubing exclusively for the past 9 brews without a problem and have a couple in "storage" waiting to go. It just makes sense (to me anyway) on brew day to do double batches and brew perhaps twice in the day, then store the wort away. I have never had a problem, but then again I like to sterilise my cubes not once but twice before I use them.



Steve :beer:


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## PostModern

If you run the wort in hot enough, via a short enough tube, the heat of the wort itself will sanitise the cube. Especially if it cools slowly. The cube should of course be ~clean~ (and I use one dose of either iodophor or caustic if I have it about) but going overboard with sanitising the cube is wasteful of time and solution, imho. Cortez made a good point in the article about not rapid chilling the cube, and that's because pasteurisation is a function of temperature and time.


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## rich_lamb

Hey, great article Cortez.

I'm just getting into no-chill though I've been doing AG for some time; for me it's a simplification. I like simple. (Am simple?)

You might want to mention in the cons that it's "theoretically" more prone to DMS. This was one of the points that had me holding off on no-chill for a while.

I questioned no-chillers at length about it - even personally tasted their beers and looked at their comp results. I don't think the DMS theory bears out! Dunno where the extra DMS goes, maybe it's scrubbed out during fermentation. Maybe it's all a bunch of hooey to start with.


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## Cortez The Killer

My understanding is that DMS is more prevalent in US malts

But I'm not 100% on it

Cheers


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## PostModern

My understanding of DMS is that it is driven off during the boil, not made by boiling. By the time the boil is over, there is no more DMS to stay around. Where does the DMS go in a kettle chilled wort?


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## amiddler

Oh Wow,

I didn't even know you could go without chilling your beer after boiling. This makes allot of sense to me. I could never see the point of using a chiller and just letting all that water run away. This will see me into AG much quicker and cheaper.

Cortez, a magnificent job on the WIKI. B) 
Keep it coming.

Cheers


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## white.grant

Jamil told me this morning that DMS occurs in Pilsener malts particularly, (this was in the dunkelwiezen podcast) and suggested a longer boil. 


edit too slow - what PoMo said....


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## Cortez The Killer

Pinched this from another thread 

=======
The BJCP guide in its yeast section has some interesting notes;

"DMS

DMS, or dimethyl-sulfide produces the aroma and taste of cooked vegetables, notably corn, celery, cabbage or parsnips. In extreme cases, it may even be reminiscent of shellfish or water in which shrimp has been boiled. DMS is normally produced by the heat-induced conversion of S-methyl-methionine, but most of this evaporates during an open, rolling boil. A closed boil or slow cooling of the wort may therefore lead to abnormally high levels. Some DMS is also scrubbed out during a vigorous fermentation, which is why lagers and cold-conditioned ales may have slightly higher levels than warm-fermented ales. Wild yeast or Zymomonas bacteria may produce high enough levels of DMS to make the beer undrinkable. Low levels of DMS are appropriate in most lagers, particularly American light lagers and pre-prohibition pilsners, but are not desirable in any ale style."
=======

Seems to be an issue with lighter malts like pilsner 

I haven't brewed enough with pilsner malt - and that which I've used has been JW

I'm not really in a position to comment re: DMS - just to say I haven't tasted it in my batches to date

Aren't only 20% of the population able to taste it?

Cheers


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## Cortez The Killer

PostModern said:


> My understanding of DMS is that it is driven off during the boil. By the time the boil is over, there is no more DMS to stay around. Where does the DMS go in a kettle chilled wort?


From a quick read - it seems to be produced while wort is hot - hence the recommendation of rapid wort chilling post boiling

But that's only from what I've read

Cheers


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## Julez

Great post, Cortez. I reckon the no-chill idea has a lot of merit. I used it for my first few AGs and it seemed to work well. 

There is a good article on Google Books, from "The Brewer's Handbook", which I think gives the best summary of why NOT to no-chill. However, it seems many people are no-chilling very successfully. 

"A long, slow cooling does not give a good cold break because more protein is trapped in suspension; this gives rise to a finer trub, chill haze, and harsh, sulfur-like aftertastes in the beer. Coarse trub is essential for good separation and good beer stability. In addition, a rapid cooling will minimize the development of dimethyl sulfide (DMS), which is more likely, to form when using lager malt. If the wort is reheated, cold trub will go back into solution, forming a chill haze."

Anyway, I think your wiki is excellent, even though I don't no-chill anymore. For someone looking to start up AG especially, it is a great method from which people are clearly getting good results. 

Edit: However I have heard that to get a "proper cold break" with a chiller, you need to get the wort down close to 0 degrees, which I don't think many home-brewers can do anyway...


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## Julez

To reply to myself, from the same book:

"It is essential that the cold break be precipitated as much as possible, which is done by a very rapid cooling. The wort must be force-cooled to below 10C to secure a satisfactory break, and it precipitates best at 0 to 5C."

So you have to question whether this is really an argument in favour of the pro-chillers, since I don't think many people that are force-chilling can achieve this result.


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## Thirsty Boy

Julez said:


> . . . .A long, slow cooling does not give a good cold break because more protein is trapped in suspension; this gives rise to a finer trub, chill haze, and harsh, sulfur-like aftertastes in the beer. Coarse trub is essential for good separation and good beer stability. In addition, a rapid cooling will minimize the development of dimethyl sulfide (DMS), which is more likely, to form when using lager malt. If the wort is reheated, cold trub will go back into solution, forming a chill haze. . .



The thing that is missed when relating a lot of the texts to the practice of no-chill - is time. There is lots of it on the side of the no-chiller.

So where the texts mention that the break forms better and bigger under rapid chilling - and that course trub is essential for good separation: The assumption is still that you are talking about pitching quite soon after brewing. _Long and slow_ is assumed by the texts to be over a few hours or something like that; and then you pitch as soon as the wort is cool enough. Then there might well be a bunch of cold break in suspension, that will make it to the fermentor - where there is a fair amount of debate over whether it will make much difference at all.

But - no chill isn't like that - you don't necessarily pitch as soon as the wort is cool enough, you might pitch then, or you might do it the next day, the next week or the next month. The cold break still forms just the same as when you rapid chill, its just finer and doesn't settle as fast, but in a weeks time....its settled just fine. Then you leave it behind in the cube. Same for any hop or hot break trub that happened to make it into the transfer. Probably the clearest worts I have ever put into fermentors have been no-chill worts.

And when I chill with my plate chiller - all the cold break goes into the fermentor - every last bit. So as far as clean, cold break free wort goes, I'd say that no-chill is the superior method. Obviously better than a Plate or CF chiller - and I reckon most likely better than an immersion chiller as well. What those other things do pretty well and quickly, no-chill does _very_ well, but slowly.

Of course, that doesn't address the DMS thing. But I've drunk a fair few NC beers over the last few years and only ever had one that I thought had DMS. I've had more DMS effected commercial beers in the same period of time.

Horses for courses really - I'm not usually a no chiller, but I have yet to see a really good argument that manages to thoroughly combine accepted brewing theory with the actual experience of No-Chilling, that gives it a thumbs down. So I use the technique when its convenient, and it works.

Good enough for me.

Thirsty


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## ///

Gino

Ey, good to see my favourite time saving device be written so well. Unlike my ramblings...

As a note to the side diversions. Unsure how you would develop HSA filling the cube. I trust most folks have not seen how a grant runs in some of the old Euro breweries made by Huppman or Steinecker - those babies run hard! Also a pump at 40 HZ gets a commercial brew moving, so I cannot understand the worry.

Also, is the presumption is that S-methyl-methionine is high in all Pils malts? It may be present, but only some malts have the precursor in high enough levels to bear a notifiable profile. Pils malts from all the maltsters sold in Australia are very low in this fraction - and deliberately so as the Aussie big breweries seek to limit DMS in the final product. If you want high DMBS precursor (acromyn for S-methyl-methionine) you have to ask for it and the maltster has to produce it. ADM export all thier stock with high levels to Asia.

On the production brewing side, the fractions when in high enough numbers, will seek to form throughout the brewing operation and the wort must be treated like eggshells. The method most often used to get enough precursor is to let the wort stand for at least 30 minutes after flame-out to form the amount required. But, as per the previous paragraph, the fraction has to be high to begin with to ensure enough carry over to the final product.

For all the ney-sayers, I think we are up to about over our 2500-th hot filled wort pack by now... and no one has died ... or that we know! :huh:


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## Cortez The Killer

Thanks Scotty

That clears a few things up

I could expand the article to refute all the arguments against no-chilling - but I don't think that it is appropriate or necessary. 

As Thirsty Boy says "I have yet to see a really good argument that manages to thoroughly combine accepted brewing theory with the actual experience of No-Chilling, that gives it a thumbs down"

I concur with this and am yet to find anything solid that actually demonstrates the short comings of the no-chill method based on currently accepted brewing theory and actual experience. The vast major of no-chill users report excellent results, with only a couple citing reduced hop aroma as a negative. Though this problem however is easily resolved at fermentation or kegging stages.

Also I've only stumbled across a handful a swollen cube stories, the majority of which have arisen due to rapid chilling of the cube and poor sanitation techniques. They are appear to occur at a fraction of the rate that infections during fermentation occur.

At the end of the day should the no-chill method not work for you, then don't use it. Should chilling not be a hassle for you then continue to use it. The way I see it the method is not only advantageous in allowing brewers to move into all grain brewing (just like BIAB has) and thereby increasing those pledging allegiance to the dark side, but also giving rise to a plethora of other benefits namely in storability and increased production with limited resources. 

Thanks all for the positive feedback.

Cheers


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## devo

I used to think that the weird flavour is was getting in my lagers was DMS but I'm now more of the view that it was diacetyl all along due to inadequate resting. Reason being is that it was more of an annoying sweeter smell/flavour rather than cooked vegetables.

Eitherway Since setting up my 1000ltr water tank I've dragged out the old immersion chiller and moving back to chilling my brews when it comes to lagers.


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## hillbillybreweries

Hi Cortez, 
the other question I had regarding the no chill message was about storage. Is there a risk of staling compounds and oxidation affecting how long you can keep your beer? Obviously several factors can affect this I.e. What grains are used , how the beer is handled over all, is it bottle conditioned and so on. The guys I know who are doing it in my club are newer brewers and not really keeping any of their beer. I just took out a bottle conditioned APA that was two years old. While the hop had dropped back a bit it was still ok. Do you keep your beers and try them over longer time periods?


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## Cortez The Killer

I can't really comment as my beers AG aren't around too long maybe 3 - 4 months at most in kegs

I tasted some of my early AG bottle beers not too long ago and while different from early days - they were still very drinkable 

I imagine that there's other brewers out there who can comment on long term stability of their no-chill beer

Cheers


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## mikelinz

citymorgue2 said:


> brillient Cortez.
> 
> 
> Let me ask a question for discussion - why we cant no-chill in the kettle? Is it just because its not airtight? What if you can make your kettle air tight?




I have seen a kettle that has a lid that clamps on once the boil is finished.


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## brettprevans

mikelinz said:


> I have seen a kettle that has a lid that clamps on once the boil is finished.


ala pressure cooker style. thats sorta what I was thinking. although putting into cubes will be much of a muchness I guess. Ive got a march pump so when its set up It wont bother what it gets pumped into.


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## hillbillybreweries

Hi Mike, yep guys in our club do seal up the boiler and leave it. Most of them drop the temp to at least below 80C and usually below 40C before they do it. I guess one way to figure it out is to to brew a large batch and wrack half to a cube and chill the other half and keep them to see how both evolve. Something I might try later when I get time.
In any case I guess that's why we all love this hobby always something new to discuss and try out.
Certainly heard that about the pils malt thing and heard that one Melbourne retailer had to change the malt used for their wort in a cube product for the reason discussed earlier in this thread.Once they did the problem was resolved as I understand it.


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## PostModern

The main benefit I get from no-chilling is the ability to fill a number of cubes with wort then ferment them whenever I have the fermenters empty or need more beer. Keeping it in the kettle seems a little bit dodgy to me. Cubes are sanitised by the heat, there is nothing in them to contaminate the beer, especially if you leave little or no headspace. I know the inside of my kettle has minute traces of worty hop gunk and whatnot in there. No matter how thorough my cleaning, even the batch in question will leave resude on the keg walls as the volume drops off during the boil. I doubt I'd be leaving cool wort in it for any length of time, but if you were to do it, put the seal on while the whole kettle is still at pastuerisation temps.


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## hillbillybreweries

Mostly if not chilled and wracked on brewday the wort only stays in the boiler for a day or so two tops. Haven't known of anyone having problems doing that and it's mainly if the yeast is not quiete ready to go yet that I would do that. Still mainly interested in how long your beer will keep using the no chill/cube method. At this point still do not have an answer on this point.


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## PostModern

Like Cortez, my beers don't last more than a month or so in the keg post-fermentation. I've had cubes kept for a few months before opening and pitching. I don't see how no-chilling could make oxidative pre-cursors.


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## Thirsty Boy

I've got a little (5L) NC cube of Golden Strong wort sitting at the back of the fridge - where its been sitting for just over a year I think. One of these days when I have nothing much going on, I will throw some yeast at it and see what comes out.

I expect it will be fine


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## katzke

Just thinking here.

Any reason why a Cornelius Keg would not work? They cost more then the cubes but I have been lucky and get them for around $20US used.

There would be space on top but CO2 should fix that. That may cause an oxygen problem when pitching. I do not use oxygen now so that could be a stopper for me. With most of our plastics coming from China, and some of the problems we have had with contaminated products (dog food, tooth paste, lead in toys, what we have not been told about), adding boiling liquid to food grade stainless has a comfort factor.

I have a chiller so do not see using no chill very often. Also have extra kegs.


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## warrenlw63

I've had had a couple of pretty manky DMS-ridden pilsners using no-chill and Weyermann Pilsner malt. Never been a problem with local malts.

Warren -


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## Cortez The Killer

katzke said:


> Any reason why a Cornelius Keg would not work?


When this was asked before I think the argument against went along the lines of that a keg was designed to contain pressure. However when hot wort cools it sucks pressure in. Therefore a good seal would not be formed to keep out the outside air out. 

The cube changes shape to accommodate this (ie the walls are sucked in) - A keg won't have this ability

You can try it and report back

I find that a plastic cube is more than sufficient

Cheers


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## matti

I no chilled my first lager yesterday.
I don't plan to rack it for another 2 weeks.
The cube is in the fridge at the moment.

I am pretty sure I will achieve a clear wort in time with no chill but it will be interesting if the cold break will impart any off flavour in a lager.

My latest effort may need some help in many ways before it will be ready to drink.
any tips would be handy fellow.

Like how long will it take for all cold break to settle?
I am talking about the really fine stuff you cannot see.

MAtti

Ps Nice article Cortez


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## therook

I'm a no chiller and have a question for other no chillers that make Pilsner/Lagers.

I made my second Pilsner 3 weeks ago and find that the hop aroma/Flavour on both the Pilsners i have done as being non existent do other non chillers find this is the case using this method?

Rook


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## PostModern

Not sure if I'm qualified to answer, as I mostly make ales. I only add flavour/aroma hops at flameout and have no issues with plenty of aroma. IIPAs and IAPAs might get dry hopped in primary when the yeast head drops in.


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## bindi

I have four lagers/Pil on tap at the moment [this is very rare  and poor planning] all no chill and as clear as, with no loss of hop flavor and easy drinking.

Off topic, becoming bored with lagers and can't wait to put a good ale on tap though. :icon_cheers:


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## matti

bindi said:


> I have four lagers/Pil on tap at the moment [this is very rare  and poor planning] all no chill and as clear as, with no loss of hop flavor and easy drinking.
> 
> Off topic, becoming bored with lagers and can't wait to put a good ale on tap though. :icon_cheers:



Glad to hear its all good, Bindi.

I checked my lager cube that is sitting in the fridge @ 1 degrees ATM.
The cold break has coagulated really well but still appears about 10cm from the bottom as a big ugly cloud.
This is only 3 days from brew day.

If you chill the wort down to slush you are supposed to get the best results.
I can't see why this should be any different when "no chilling", providing the closed airtight container is free of oxygen and completely sterile.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Matti


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## Cortez The Killer

matti said:


> If you chill the wort down to slush you are supposed to get the best results.
> I can't see why this should be any different when "no chilling", providing the closed airtight container is free of oxygen and completely sterile.


Cooling the cube to low temps shouldn't be a problem as long as it wasn't cooled rapidly initially when hot packed

All of the break in my cubes ends up in the fermenter. I've never bothered trying to separate it when transferring from cube to fermenter. 

This does make for a lot more gunk at the bottom of the fermenter but it hasn't affected the clarity or flavour of my beers

Cheers


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## Cortez The Killer

buttersd70 said:


> Would purging the cube with CO2 negate this? I would think that, logically, if proper sanitation is followed, and there is a surplus of CO2 to air in the headspace, it would be OK. Anyone have experience with this?
> 
> and in relation to the (supposed) issues with long term stability and clarity, would the application of pvpp (ie polyclar) address these concerns?


I can't see that purging with co2 would cause any problems. Though with the steam which comes off the hot wort it may be difficult to ensure that oxygen is not drawn in when transferring the hot wort in - due to turbulence created in the head space.

You'd be surprised at how much air can be squeezed out of a hot cube. So I can't really see the advantage of purging with co2. 

I made a batch on the weekend and my cube probably had about 2 litres of head space after squeezing. It'll be sitting like that till probably tomorrow (7 days) as my smack pack is taking a little while to wake up. So I'll see if there are any problems in the final product and report back.

With long term stability I just finished of a keg that had been in the keg fridge for 5 months and there beer was drinking just fine. I find all my beers clear up very nicely in the keg after about 2 weeks. All I use is whirlfloc at 10 mins to go in the boil.

Cheers


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## reviled

Cortez The Killer said:


> I made a batch on the weekend and my cube probably had about 2 litres of head space after squeezing. It'll be sitting like that till probably tomorrow (7 days) as my smack pack is taking a little while to wake up. So I'll see if there are any problems in the final product and report back.



Id be very interested to find out the results :icon_cheers:


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## PostModern

I have a range of cubes of different sizes. Makes it easy, unless I totally stuff my target volumes on double batches. Haven't had airy headspace in a while.


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## matti

I've got Willow cubes. They are taller and more suitable if you are aiming to rack the clear wort off the break.
Most people would not worry about the cold break as it will settle in the fermenter any way.

But if you are aiming at having a product at the end that is a clean tasting an estetical looking, it is recommended to leave the majority of cold break behind.
This will leave you less work to do and shorten the lagering period.
Since I don't filter I am hoping to avoid fining the beer later.


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## edoeven

I usually no-chill-cool overnight in my kettle. I cover the top with some sanitised foil. Have not had any problems with infections however I always pitch generally ~ 24 hrs later. 
this method means I can do a AG brew in about 3-3.5 hours, (with a simple mash anyway).
I transfer everything possible to the fermentor (all the break, as much trub as I can, I dont want to waste any wort!!!)
so far, no problems with clarity or chill haze or anything like that... Once I get a bigger mlt that is capable of doing double batches I'll be cubing like crazy tho hehe 
The one downside is the trub in the fermentor makes it harder to easily harvest clean yeast - I get around this by harvesting yeast from the krausen during ferment (which works well with ales anyway!)


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## Thirsty Boy

buttersd70 said:


> Cheers, cortez.
> My main issue is the PITA of getting the air out with the shape of cube that I have. I'm sure that the stouter, shorter ones are fine, but the taller, narrower willow type ones are a bugger. <_<



Butters - its all in the technique.

I have a willow "jerry" style NC cube, which is what I think you mean?? I learned how to squeeze it from Spillsmostofit. Its easy once you know how.

You will need two hand towels.

-Take your freshly filled cube and screw on the lid till it just seals
-carry it over to the nearest nice solid wall and put it sideways hard up against the wall.
-kneel down one one knee in front of the cube as though you were going to ask it to marry you
-Grab it by the handle (wrapped in one of the towels) and tilt it backwards so the opening is the highest point. A little less than 45
-put the knee thats not resting on the ground into the side of the cube and push lightly (towel on it to prevent burns) and with the hand thats not holding the handle, loosen the lid of the cube a tiny bit, till the air starts to come out
-lean your knee into the side of the cube, squashing it, till all the air has been pushed out - as the first bit of wort starts to run out, tighten up the lid.

You should fairly easily be able to completely squeeze out all the air. If I have more than a 50c sized bubble of air in the cube... I do it again till I dont.

Easy peasy when some other bugger has shown you how to do it.

Thirsty


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## buttersd70

Thanks thirsty
Yeah, thats the type of cube I was talking about. You make it sound easy....as you say, simple once you know how. Will try this on my next brewday.


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## reviled

Ive been thinking, whats to stop putting a tap on the cube and an airlock in the lid, and using it as a fermenter as well? Or would this not work?


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## Cortez The Killer

There's nothing stopping you ...

As long as you have enough head space for the krausen 

And you have some means of aerating the wort - You could try the olive oil thing so aeration is not a concern 

There's a few people using cubes as fermenters - not sure about people using the same no chill cube as a fermenter though

You need to remember that the cube doesn't change shape unless there's heat - so if you squeezed it to get air out initially - it will retain this shape as it cools

Cheers


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## buttersd70

I have used cubes to ferment (not the same cube as I no chilled in, though) with great success, but they are a bugger to clean the krausen ring out of. Chux on a (bent) stick, and a hell of a lot of shaking, rinsing, repeating.  
The main reason is that the fridge that I have temp controlled can only fit 1 fermenter......or 1 fermenter and a cube. If you do it, make sure you clean the krausen ring as soon as the cube is emptied. If you leave it, you'll never get the bugger off.


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## crozdog

buttersd70 said:


> I have used cubes to ferment (not the same cube as I no chilled in, though) with great success, but they are a bugger to clean the krausen ring out of. Chux on a (bent) stick, and a hell of a lot of shaking, rinsing, repeating.
> The main reason is that the fridge that I have temp controlled can only fit 1 fermenter......or 1 fermenter and a cube. If you do it, make sure you clean the krausen ring as soon as the cube is emptied. If you leave it, you'll never get the bugger off.


Butters,

i disagree, I find it's easy. forget the chux on a stick, simply fill the cube with water & sodium percarbonate. it does all of the work for you. 

i do agree that you need to do this promptly as the longer it's left the harder the krausen becomes.


----------



## BusinessTime

Would an issue with using the NC cube as a fermenter be that there isn't enough oxygen in the wort for the yeast ???? Unless you decant and pour back into cube to airate it ....


----------



## buttersd70

Yes, you would need to aerate the wort, either open it to get air in and then reseal and shake it, use a stone, or decant out. However you choose to aerate is up to you, but it would need to be aerated in some fashion.


----------



## Kingy

ive gone from BIAB and No chill up to a 3 vessell system and a chiller. But have now found my self back doing th BIAB and No chilling. Far less time and get to pump out a lot more brews also couldnt notice any difference in the beers.


----------



## Rurik

Cortez The Killer said:


> When this was asked before I think the argument against went along the lines of that a keg was designed to contain pressure. However when hot wort cools it sucks pressure in. Therefore a good seal would not be formed to keep out the outside air out.



I know one avid brewer who uses no chill into kegs. He just connects a gas line up to it and maintains some over pressure while it cools.


----------



## PostModern

Obviously, once you use a cube as a fermenter, it stays a fermenter, not a no-chill cube.


----------



## T.D.

Why do you say that PoMo?

A soaking in Napisan and it'd be as good as new.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

It's precautionary

I wouldn't be comfortable using a cube if it'd been used a fermenter either

For peace of mind I'd keep the two separate

Cheers


----------



## PostModern

Yep. Single duty. Eg, for no-chill I prefer undrilled cubes. Obviously for a fermenter, you'd have a drilled one with tap. Lurking between the tap or bung and the cube's thread could be one mutant yeast cell that survives the hot temps. Bye bye batch.


----------



## geoffi

I don't use cubes as 'fermeters' as such, but I do use them for lagering and cold conditioning. I've used the same cubes for no-chill, without any ill effects so far. Mind you, I give them a fearful workout with boiling water, bleach and vinegar for a day, air dry, store with sod met, then iodophor prior to reuse. Threads, bungs, lids and o-rings get particular attention. I can see how less-than-anal sanitising could lead to disaster with these.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Damn - I just kind of assumed that everyone removed all taps, bungs seals plus took o'rings off all fittings etc between brews and they all got a good separate sanitise before the fermentor was reassembled and sanitised as a unit.

If that level of sanitation isn't in your schedule, yeah maybe you shouldn't use the same cubes for fermenting and for NC.

But still - even if there is some bug action hiding in the gaps. The gaps are going to get heated up pretty damn hot over quite a long time. They'd have to be some pretty tough yeast/bacteria to live through that.


----------



## geoffi

Thirsty Boy said:


> Damn - I just kind of assumed that everyone removed all taps, bungs seals plus took o'rings off all fittings etc between brews and they all got a good separate sanitise before the fermentor was reassembled and sanitised as a unit.
> 
> If that level of sanitation isn't in your schedule, yeah maybe you shouldn't use the same cubes for fermenting and for NC.
> 
> But still - even if there is some bug action hiding in the gaps. The gaps are going to get heated up pretty damn hot over quite a long time. They'd have to be some pretty tough yeast/bacteria to live through that.




Yeah, that heat should be the stake through the heart of the wort-sucking bug vampire.

If you've thoroughly cleaned and sanitised a cube, then filled it with near-boiling wort and let it sit for hours to pasteurise, and it still gets infected, take that cube to your nearest microbiologist. You might have discovered one of them thar 'superbugs'.


----------



## PostModern

Thirsty Boy said:


> Damn - I just kind of assumed that everyone removed all taps, bungs seals plus took o'rings off all fittings etc between brews and they all got a good separate sanitise before the fermentor was reassembled and sanitised as a unit.
> 
> If that level of sanitation isn't in your schedule, yeah maybe you shouldn't use the same cubes for fermenting and for NC.
> 
> But still - even if there is some bug action hiding in the gaps. The gaps are going to get heated up pretty damn hot over quite a long time. They'd have to be some pretty tough yeast/bacteria to live through that.



Yeah true. However, as I said above, I use undrilled cubes for no-chill, so there are no threads in contact with the wort. I wash them after use with either PSR or sodium percarbonate, rinse and store open. Before use, another rinse with percarbonate then a no rinse iodophor soak. I've got a few cubes here drilled and bunged, they's me real ale cubes.


----------



## white.grant

PostModern said:


> I've got a few cubes here drilled




PoMo, what exactly do you mean by drilled? Do you ream the existing threaded bung hole?

cheers

Grant


----------



## matti

My latest effort in no chill the lid didn't seal.
Checked it a moment ago and purged the air again.
Had to have a couple of goes before it sealed properly.
Unfortunately there is no way of creating a vacuum suction as it is has gone lukewarm.
I don't think I am in trouble as every thing (lid and jerry) would have got properly sterilised with the hot wort.

Has any one had similar problem and what was your experience?

Matti


----------



## reviled

matti said:


> My latest effort in no chill the lid didn't seal.
> Checked it a moment ago and purged the air again.
> Had to have a couple of goes before it sealed properly.
> Unfortunately there is no way of creating a vacuum suction as it is has gone lukewarm.
> I don't think I am in trouble as every thing (lid and jerry) would have got properly sterilised with the hot wort.
> 
> Has any one had similar problem and what was your experience?
> 
> Matti



This happened to me the first time I used a cube, I assumed it was the particular cube I got was not meant to be airtight.. I just left it overnight and then dumped it into a fermenter the next day... That was my first AG and it came out sweet as B) 

The cube sealed perfectly the next time I used it <_<


----------



## Ross

Is there really a need to squeeze & limit the headspace?

With the fact that there is always headspace left, if it was a problem then surely the commercial guys & others would be losing brews. With the fact that the sealed cube is at pasteurisation temps for a good length of time i really dont see the need to be too concerned if you've 10 to 20% of headspace.

Cheers Ross


----------



## matti

Ross said:


> Is there really a need to squeeze & limit the headspace?
> 
> With the fact that there is always headspace left, if it was a problem then surely the commercial guys & others would be losing brews. With the fact that the sealed cube is at pasteurisation temps for a good length of time i really dont see the need to be too concerned if you've 10 to 20% of headspace.
> 
> Cheers Ross


You are right in your assumption to a certain degree me thinks. That's why I don't have any immediate concerns.
But if you do squeeze the air out you will create a suction that will seal the lid proper and be good for longer time storage.
Once the brew is cooled the air can do little damage, I believe.


----------



## Pumpy

Ross said:


> Is there really a need to squeeze & limit the headspace?
> 
> With the fact that there is always headspace left, if it was a problem then surely the commercial guys & others would be losing brews. With the fact that the sealed cube is at pasteurisation temps for a good length of time i really dont see the need to be too concerned if you've 10 to 20% of headspace.
> 
> Cheers Ross




Agreed however I like to squeeze the cube to get distortion .

So if I have not sealed it properly air will get in and it push out the sides ,

You can decide when it has cooled too add yeast straight away rather than storing the wort as it may well get infected .

Also my belief is the squeezing of the cube the steam chases any unsterilised air out of the cube .

Pumpy


----------



## wambesi

Ross said:


> Is there really a need to squeeze & limit the headspace?
> 
> With the fact that there is always headspace left, if it was a problem then surely the commercial guys & others would be losing brews. With the fact that the sealed cube is at pasteurisation temps for a good length of time i really dont see the need to be too concerned if you've 10 to 20% of headspace.
> 
> Cheers Ross



Exactly my thinking, I squeeze a little to minimise the space, but mainly so it has some suction there and can see if there is a leak.
Otherwise my four AG's (NC) to date all have had more head space then most people on here have described.

They seem ok to me, much better than my kits


----------



## Weizguy

reviled said:


> Ive been thinking, whats to stop putting a tap on the cube and an airlock in the lid, and using it as a fermenter as well? Or would this not work?


**1/ I think that you should not consider putting a tap on the cube/jerry until the wort has cooled or you will find that air is sucked in via the tap, and you don't want that to undo all your good work.

For me, I'd prefer to use a separate fermentor.  

** 2/ One more thought occurred to me: do you think that our American visitors for the ANHC will be comfortable drinking no-chill beer (botu-beer, as it has been called)?
I assume that they'll need to do some research before they're cool with drinking no-chilled beer; being American and all. :lol: 

Beerz
Les


----------



## Thirsty Boy

I never thought that squeezing the air out of the cube had to do with infection control, I thought it served two main purposes, with the notion of infection control far in the background.

First - if you don't squeeze out all the air, then seal it up and shake/turn the cube to get heat on all the surfaces - it might blow up like a balloon when the air in the gap expands from the heat, popping the lid and spraying you with boiling hot sugar water

Second - to limit oxidation. I'm generally not a massive believer in hot side aeration, but hours and hours of contact between air and hot hot wort as the cube cools down overnight... seems like you are asking for HSA to pop out from behind a tree and have a fuzzy photo taken of itself. Squeeze out the air and the HSA yeti stays in its cave.

Especially if you are going to store the cube in the longer term. You want oxygen in your wort, but only for yeast to absorb, if its there for a long time, it will oxidise things, which _might_ be bad for the beer.

It will actually be interesting to see what the American Gurus think of some of the less traditional things we are doing over here... should we warn them or let it come as a surprise?


----------



## Damian44

Could someone remind me why i cant cool my cube in the swiming pool? 

And could i chill the wort than fit the tap and a Siphon Spray Wort Aerator to my cube? 

TYVM


----------



## BennyBrewster

Damian44 said:


> Could someone remind me why i cant cool my cube in the swiming pool?
> 
> And could i chill the wort than fit the tap and a Siphon Spray Wort Aerator to my cube?
> 
> TYVM



It is my understanding that cooling it down quickly will prevent the hot wort from effectivly pasturising the inside of the cube.


----------



## Damian44

I could leave the wort in the cube for 20 min to pasturize, than give it a dip in the pool. Than i could start fermenting sooner.

I do like the idea of brewing Saturday and fermenting Sunday though. Especially being a newbie and all. More time to run through the steps in my mind.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

You can cool you cube down in the pool - then it isn't no chill... its just another method of chilling and - like you do with other chilling methods - you are going to have to be very careful about sanitation.

If your reason to cool it down in the pool is because you want to get fermenting faster - be careful about sanitising the inside of the cube and then go for it. 

If you want to store that cube for a few days/weeks/months before fermenting it, then you have removed a layer of infection prevention by cooling it rapidly and it might not be such a great idea.

TB


----------



## Bribie G

I'm going all grain in December. I've got all the gear sussed out except for the wort chilling gear which was going to be a PITA (plate chillers whatever) so I'm now absorbing all this information about no-chill as it seems the way to go.

I have a 20 L Willow Jerrycan from Bunnings I bought for lagering, brand new and never been used so I'm set up already. I'll do a test and if it actually holds up to 23 L then perfect.

On the subject of cooling the cube, I'm only interested in getting it to pitching temp, no desire to store it for weeks so would the following be safe:

Brew during the day and end up filling the cube say around 5pm.
Let it sit till about midnight and put into fridge and hopefully transfer to fermenter and pitch in the morning?

Another thing, has anyone used one of those stick on thermometers on a cube to check for pitching temperature or would the high temperatures destroy it?


----------



## buttersd70

BribieG said:


> I'm going all grain in December. I've got all the gear sussed out except for the wort chilling gear which was going to be a PITA (plate chillers whatever) so I'm now absorbing all this information about no-chill as it seems the way to go.
> 
> I have a 20 L Willow Jerrycan from Bunnings I bought for lagering, brand new and never been used so I'm set up already. I'll do a test and if it actually holds up to 23 L then perfect.
> 
> On the subject of cooling the cube, I'm only interested in getting it to pitching temp, no desire to store it for weeks so would the following be safe:
> 
> Brew during the day and end up filling the cube say around 5pm.
> Let it sit till about midnight and put into fridge and hopefully transfer to fermenter and pitch in the morning?
> 
> Another thing, has anyone used one of those stick on thermometers on a cube to check for pitching temperature or would the high temperatures destroy it?


bribie
with the blue willow containers, the flat section on the underside of the handle is 24L, and when filled to that point, when sitting flat, the liquid comes to just under the lip of the opening. I lways try to aim for 24L out of the kettle, it fills the willows perfectly, and with 4% shrinkage during cooling, you get a nice even 23L out of the cube (or slightly less if you leave the break behind, but many don't bother). If you want even more in, if you get the angle just right, you can get up to 25L in there (just), but thats a pita.

If you finish at 5pm, by midnight they will have cooled quite a bit (depending on ambient temperature obviously), so by that stage they would be well under the temperature range for pasteurisation anyway, so I don't see any issue with cooling quicker at this point. You want it to remain in the pasteurisation temperature range for as long as possible, but once it drops under this naturally anyway, all bets are off imho. If putting into a constantly running fridge at midnight, it would posibly be too cold to pitch by morning....you might want to even have a timer on to knock off some time in the early am, maybe 5ish?

The stickers don't like the heat, but they do (often) come back to life when the temp comes down.


----------



## Bribie G

Thanks,obviously the way to go. My Willow is actually a white one, so hopefully that means it's less likely to leach anything into the brew, not that would be a problem as I guess they are all certified food grade whatever. Only thirty eight more sleeps :icon_drunk:


----------



## buttersd70

Bribie, prep the cube before using it, fill with boiling water and allow to sit and cool. Repeat until all 'plasticy' smells are gone. 

Edit..you can use this as an opportunity to measure the actual capacity, and mark if so inclined...I don't know if the white ones are any differant to the blue, I can only assume they are the same...and we all know what assumption is the mother of.


----------



## Damian44

Does anyone no where to get replacement lids for the 25l cube with a black lid?
I was talking to Primus who import them, and they cant help.


----------



## Damian44

I just purchased some chlorine for the pool, and noticed the 20l container that it came in has the exact same lid as my cube. Theres a $10 deposit on the container. 
Ill give them a call tomorrow too see if they have any spare.


----------



## MCT

Damian44 said:


> I just purchased some chlorine for the pool, and noticed the 20l container that it came in has the exact same lid as my cube. Theres a $10 deposit on the container.
> Ill give them a call tomorrow too see if they have any spare.



Most cubes have the same lids I've found.
I was missing a couple of lids and I just went to Bunnings and bought the cheapest 10L water containers, fits and seals fine.


----------



## white.grant

I grabbed a 22L cube a red jerry can (for lagering) and a couple of taps today from Ray's Outdoor and noticed that they had a heap of loose cube caps and bungs for a dollar or so. 

Also, the checkout person showed me that there's a thread on the inside of the cap that's sized to fit the tap and bung so you don't loose them when travelling or cleaning or drying. I hadn't noticed that before.


cheers

grant


----------



## Goofinder

Grantw said:


> Also, the checkout person showed me that there's a thread on the inside of the cap that's sized to fit the tap and bung so you don't loose them when travelling or cleaning or drying. I hadn't noticed that before.


Ha! So there is... never knew that either. Might be handy to keep the bungs in there so I don't lose them.


----------



## wambesi

Thats funny, you learn something new here everyday....

(had to rush out and check myself)


----------



## Pollux

So I'm not the only one who just went to check the lid to their cube??

As someone who is planning a move in AG come xmas time, this NC idea is most interesting....


Might go get some fresh jerries though as I like using the cube a secondary right now...


----------



## Fents

Damian44 said:


> Could someone remind me why i cant cool my cube in the swiming pool?
> 
> And could i chill the wort than fit the tap and a Siphon Spray Wort Aerator to my cube?
> 
> TYVM



mate if you have a pool why the hell are you no chilling! you have access to the best cooling plant in town and even better you dont waste a single drop!

pool>pump>heat exchanger>wort>back in to pool

i now a 700Litre brewry that uses a pool to cool all their wort down and it happens in 20mins! although the size of their heat exchanger is somthing to behold.


----------



## PostModern

*cough* Wiki article discussion *cough*


----------



## Damian44

The following info is from the Wiki (The No-chiller Method / Using A Cube)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caveats 

- Do not be tempted to cool the cube prematurely by putting it into a swimming pool or other body of water. Rapidly cooled hot packed wort can give rise to infections as it does not allow for the cube to be exposed to the hot wort for long enough to ensure that any bacteria in the cube is killed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If i was going to ferment straight away, wouldnt that be ok as it wouldnt be staying in the cube?


Grantw great news about the caps. Good find. I love a bargain.


----------



## MCT

I think the point is letting the hot wort do the job of sanitizing the cube.
Even if your fermenting straight away I'd leave the cube hot for 20 mins or so to sanitize, so you don't carry across any nasties from the cube into the fermentor.


----------



## Bribie G

I'm going AG no chill shortly and whilst I agree with achieving the highest level of sanitation possible, wouldn't a cube nuked for a week on chlorine, like my fermenters, be germ free - unless we are dealing with a monster mutated home brew bug of some sort? I've done 25 brews on chlorine only and my fermenters are always sweet as. 

Is the cube thing to do with the intrinsic difficulty of getting a brush or whatever into the cube when cleaning and sanitising???


----------



## buttersd70

BribieG said:


> I'm going AG no chill shortly and whilst I agree with achieving the highest level of sanitation possible, wouldn't a cube nuked for a week on chlorine, like my fermenters, be germ free - unless we are dealing with a monster mutated home brew bug of some sort? I've done 25 brews on chlorine only and my fermenters are always sweet as.
> 
> Is the cube thing to do with the intrinsic difficulty of getting a brush or whatever into the cube when cleaning and sanitising???



You mean the laying on the side to pasteurise the lid and handle, and not cooling rapidly? For me, thats a backup to my regular sanitation, more than anything else. I look at it as one of those things, like handling yeast....no such thing as too many sanitation precautions.


----------



## Bribie G

I take the point, for the extra half minute of effort.....


----------



## randb

Cortez The Killer said:


> This is the discussion topic for article: The No-Chiller Method / Using A Cube
> 
> I wrote this article up yesterday for the wiki about no-chilling. There always seems to be interest in the topic amongst new brewers and there didn't appear to be any article in the wiki covering it. Nor is there a succinct thread about the method.
> 
> Also for some reason a discussion topic was not automatically created. Mods please move this into the Wiki forum - I can't start a thread there myself.
> 
> Cheers



Thanks for an awesome article.

Just need one piece of advice. What would you recommend to be the best way to get the wort from the pot/kettle to the cube. 

1. Should I use a funnel and pour or will this cause to much splashing??

2. Should I syphon with a hose, but worried about mouth germs ( could use listerine just prior).

3 Any other suggestion would be appreciated. I had thought about putting a tap on the boiler.

Cheers


----------



## jonocarroll

I'm certainly not the expert on this (haven't even done it myself yet!) but I'm fairly sure that if you want to avoid aeration (I said IF - take that everyone who's going to complain) while the wort is [very] hot then you'll need to use a hose. I would strongly recommend against mouth-priming with boiling wort. 'nuff said I think. A tap would be very advisable, since the wort will be ~100C and you don't want to be lifting that if you don't need to.

Anyone know better?


----------



## BusinessTime

R.E. option 2.

Fill the hose with sanatised liquid then use that to start the siphon.


----------



## Fents

a tap on your pot/kettle is your only friend, trust me when i say you dont want to be sucking hot 90+c wort through a syphon, listerine or no listerine. you could get a pump auto syphon but i hear they collapse under heat....

no funnel, you need to reduce splashing.


----------



## clean brewer

randb said:


> Thanks for an awesome article.
> 
> Just need one piece of advice. What would you recommend to be the best way to get the wort from the pot/kettle to the cube.
> 
> 1. Should I use a funnel and pour or will this cause to much splashing??
> 
> 2. Should I syphon with a hose, but worried about mouth germs ( could use listerine just prior).
> 
> 3 Any other suggestion would be appreciated. I had thought about putting a tap on the boiler.
> 
> Cheers



Put a tap on it mate..  Get some brass all-thread, drill a hole the same size, use a black rubber washer and a red fibre washer for the inside and out, couple backnuts, a ball valve, hose tail(to attach your hose(silicone) to drain your wort, piece of copper tubing(pickup tube) and a compression fitting to attach pickup tube to all thread...

I think thats it, probably the cheapest way to do it aswell, all up with 1 metre of silicone hose, should cost about 50 bucks and will save you some dramas, also with the pickup tube you can direct it away from the trub so you dont get that in your no-chill container...

Cheers


----------



## Fents

BusinessTime said:


> R.E. option 2.
> 
> Fill the hose with sanatised liquid then use that to start the siphon.



option! didnt even think of that...nice.


----------



## matti

tap on kettle-hose that stand hot wort @ length to reach bottom of cube.

Matti


----------



## rude

Sorry to barge in on the thread as I havent read it all just the tail end but I use a 3 piece ball valve,with bunnings clear tubing on the end to get my wort to the no chill cube.
I have done my only 2 AGs like this & have soaked the tube in nappysan & it still smell like burnt plastic not good.
I will definately bar it . So Silicon plastic is the go is that correct?
It takes heat , so where do you buy it from, I live in Perth WA.


----------



## clean brewer

Dont buy that clear vinyl tubing :blink: .. Silicone hose comes from one of the sponsors at the top of the screen, about $15 p/m but well worth it...


----------



## rude

Cheers CB fast reply, $ 15 a meter whistle me off , thats deer. Any other options on buying it cheaper or using something just as good.
If not might have to stop brewing for a while to buy some tubing


----------



## PostModern

You can use the braided "clear" pressure tube from Bunnings. I do. Less expensive than silicone and holds its shape even when hot and no plastic aromas.


----------



## NickB

+1 the braided stuff is great

Cheers


----------



## Doogiechap

rude said:


> Cheers CB fast reply, $ 15 a meter whistle me off , thats deer. Any other options on buying it cheaper or using something just as good.
> If not might have to stop brewing for a while to buy some tubing



Hey mate 
Couplers in O'Connor sells reinforced food grade hose (Alfagamma) which is rated to 90 IIRC I use the 3/4" stuff but they also sell 1/2" as well. I think it's in the vicinity of $3 a metre. Mine has only done about 20 brews but is holding up just fine 
They also sell the spiral reinforced hose that Dom (Beerbelly) uses for his Brewboy rigs but I'm unsure on prices.



Cheers
Doug


----------



## randb

clean brewer said:


> Put a tap on it mate..  Get some brass all-thread, drill a hole the same size, use a black rubber washer and a red fibre washer for the inside and out, couple backnuts, a ball valve, hose tail(to attach tyour hose(silicone) to drain your wort, piece of copper tubing(pickup tube) and a compression fitting to attach pickup tube to all thread...
> 
> I think thats it, probably the cheapest way to do it aswell, all up with 1 metre of silicone hose, should cost about 50 bucks and will save you some dramas, also with the pickup tube you can direct it away from the trub so you dont get that in your no-chill container...
> 
> 
> Cheers



Thanks for all the replies, I am now about to do my first partial with the setup you describe. Thanks again will let you know how it goes. Would have done a longer reply but am using the iPod touch and it is a bit tedious.

Cheers once again


----------



## Damian44

I havnt had a cube suck in after cooling? What do you use to tighten the bung?


----------



## PostModern

Damian44 said:


> I havnt had a cube suck in after cooling? What do you use to tighten the bung?



Same here. Maybe the shape of the cube, expelling all air, the material of the cube not deforming as it heats or something??? None of mine have ever had concave sides except one I made with a low volume and pressed the sides in in an effort to reduce air in the headspace.


----------



## dr K

seems like a lot of work, a lot of worry and in some cases a lot of expense to avoid using a simple and inexpensive immersion chiller just because you think (contary to most modern brewing practice) that chilling is a wank.
as was once said, doctors bury their mistakes, brewers drink em.

K


----------



## Tim F

reviled said:


> Ive been thinking, whats to stop putting a tap on the cube and an airlock in the lid, and using it as a fermenter as well? Or would this not work?



I now ferment exclusively in cubes, the same ones that I fill straight from the kettle and no-chill. You can get extra lids for a few bucks so you just swap off the lid and put one on that you have drilled a hole in to take the airlock. I reckon cubes are much better than fermenters because they have better handles and they are a much more efficient shape in terms of getting a large batch into a brew fridge. I can only get a 15L round fermenter in my fridge but I can fit a 25L cube.

You just have to be a little bit on the ball with your cleaning as if gunk dries on it is harder to get it out. I use napisan to clean my cubes as I find it removes a lot more crap than bleach does. I just rinse after fermenting, then soak with napisan for 1 - several days, then rinse again. No problems so far.


----------



## PostModern

dr K said:


> seems like a lot of work, a lot of worry and in some cases a lot of expense to avoid using a simple and inexpensive immersion chiller just because you think (contary to most modern brewing practice) that chilling is a wank.
> as was once said, doctors bury their mistakes, brewers drink em.
> 
> K



There's not much work, no worry and no expense if you get your shit right to start with. No wasted water, brew when you can, pitch whenever you like. As per any brew method there are pluses and minuses. eg, I like the time-shifting it enables. I can brew more batches than I have fermenters (eg two double batches in one day and only three fermenters) when I have time to brew, then pitch yeast as my kegs empty. Chilling is not a wank it's just not necessary


----------



## Uncle Fester

If it ads to the thread, I have just started fermenting the 37th no chill brew through the same cube.

Never had a misfire unless I was rooting around with re-propogating yeasts.

Never had a beer mates wouldnt do lots of obscure stuff to drink.

Even converted 2 non beer drinkers to the dark side.

I have a Pale ale and a wiezen burping away from the same cide as I type...

I'm guessing I should probably spend $20 and replace the cube with anothe, but being a tight arse, I will wait a bit more...

Festa.


----------



## dr K

> There's not much work, no worry and no expense if you get your shit right to start with.



Fine thoughts, and applicable to a far broader canvas than merely humble chilling or as the case may be..no .



> Chilling is not a wank it's just not necessary



Depends on your circumstances at the time I guess, I have never, to my knowledge, said that chilling was a wank and am happy that some, at least, agree with me.

K


----------



## Bribie G

Reason I haven't gone out and bought an immersion chiller is that decades ago I made heaps of very nice AG brews in the UK by just running wort into fermenter and pitching the next day which many of us still do with kits and partials if they are a tad hot for pitching that evening. Needless to say at most times of the year in the UK this was no problem whatsoever:





:lol: 

I'm using the jerry can as an intermediate step as it has a far better surface to volume area to radiate heat and fits nicely in my beer fridge for a few hours so I don't think of it as 'no chill', rather 'smooth chill' (_registered BribieG 2008_)

Time and brews will tell


----------



## PostModern

dr K said:


> Fine thoughts, and applicable to a far broader canvas than merely humble chilling or as the case may be..no .



Of course!




dr K said:


> I have never, to my knowledge, said that chilling was a wank and am happy that some, at least, agree with me.



You never said _you_ thought chilling was a wank, but unless I completely got you out of context, you imply that no-chillers think chilling is a wank.



dr K said:


> seems like a lot of work, a lot of worry and in some cases a lot of expense to avoid using a simple and inexpensive immersion chiller just because you think (contary to most modern brewing practice) that chilling is a wank.
> as was once said, doctors bury their mistakes, brewers drink em.
> 
> K



We seem to be going to pain to agree with each other.


----------



## shayne

BribieG said:


> Reason I haven't gone out and bought an immersion chiller is that decades ago I made heaps of very nice AG brews in the UK by just running wort into fermenter and pitching the next day which many of us still do with kits and partials if they are a tad hot for pitching that evening. Needless to say at most times of the year in the UK this was no problem whatsoever:
> 
> View attachment 23197
> 
> 
> :lol:
> 
> I'm using the jerry can as an intermediate step as it has a far better surface to volume area to radiate heat and fits nicely in my beer fridge for a few hours so I don't think of it as 'no chill', rather 'smooth chill' (_registered BribieG 2008_)
> 
> Time and brews will tell



...i'm a complete noob. i was just about to ask if you can use these shapes (since i have a water container the shape of gerry can). how did it go?


----------



## Mantis

I am guessing this has been bought up before but wouldnt fresh worts kits be done in exactly this way.
Chilling is what is stopping me trying an AG as we have no water here for it. 
I might just give this a try in the new year.


----------



## buttersd70

Mantis said:


> I am guessing this has been bought up before but wouldnt fresh worts kits be done in exactly this way.



Yes and yes.
Don't let lack of water stop you from AG. Many a good beer has been made with NC.


----------



## Mantis

buttersd70 said:


> Yes and yes.
> Don't let lack of water stop you from AG. Many a good beer has been made with NC.




Thanks Butters and merry xmas
Now I am getting excited. Just need to get a cube or two and get the missus to sow up a bag for my 50lt pot


----------



## Bribie G

shayne said:


> ...i'm a complete noob. i was just about to ask if you can use these shapes (since i have a water container the shape of gerry can). how did it go?



I now have two jerrycans, one for no chill and the other for secondary fermentation. The first jerry went just perfectly as a no chill cube. It came from Bunnings with not only the regular cap but also a screw on pouring spout which I sanitised and used to bloop the cooled wort into the fermenter, which gives a far more precise aim than just pouring out of the cube. 

I also use Jerrys as a secondary fermenter because, being tall and thin, they fit nicely into my brew fridge.


----------



## shayne

BribieG said:


> I now have two jerrycans, one for no chill and the other for secondary fermentation. The first jerry went just perfectly as a no chill cube. It came from Bunnings with not only the regular cap but also a screw on pouring spout which I sanitised and used to bloop the cooled wort into the fermenter, which gives a far more precise aim than just pouring out of the cube.
> 
> I also use Jerrys as a secondary fermenter because, being tall and thin, they fit nicely into my brew fridge.



Thanks! I also think they fit better into a fridge..... I'm still at the K&K stage, but wanting to progress quickly (batch #5 in now with two fermenters now running - started 18/12/08). i think i'll look for some of these cheap and try a secondary ferment


----------



## Bribie G

Just remember that you can't get your fist into them to clean them, a great way to clean and sanitize them is to third-fill them with very hot napisan (I use the ALDI equivalent) solution and turn them upside down and leave them for a couple of days. Napisan will digest any yeast rings etc.


----------



## MattC

Firstly I will apologise if the answer to my question is somewhere in this thread however time is what i currently have little of.

Planning on brewing my first all grain 2 moro and using the no chill method. I have a 20L water container from Big W (which holds about 22L i think). 

I brew to fill one corny keg. My specs in brewsmith say batch size as 24L as I leave 4L to the trub. 

I plan on filling the sterilised cube with 20L of wort and then fermenting it, leaving me with enough to fill a corny keg. 

As there is no chilling involved is there more suspended protein material in the cube due to there not being a cold break? and if so is it best not to pour all the cube into the fermenter in order to leave some crud in the bottom? what do others do?

Cheers


----------



## Damian44

Hey MattC. Ive only done a couple of AG, but i found a good whirlpool and a 20 min rest after flame out does a world of good. All the junk ends up in the centre of the pot.
All the best for tomorrow. If you have time you could fill your cube with boiling water and empty it, just in case it leaches a plastic tast.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

I tip everything into the fermenter

Cheers


----------



## rude

how clear is youre beer cortez ? do you suffer from chill haze ?


----------



## jonocarroll

MattC said:


> As there is no chilling involved is there more suspended protein material in the cube due to there not being a cold break? and if so is it best not to pour all the cube into the fermenter in order to leave some crud in the bottom? what do others do?


I just pour the whole lot in the fermenter. From what I've heard most of the junk will settle out in the fermenter. Good luck with it all. :icon_cheers:


----------



## clean brewer

I just dumped 2 no-chill cubes into fermenters and the beer was clear as going in, there wasnt much gunk going in really, just what settled to the bottom which will drop out during fermentation and crash chilling anyhow.. 

Cheers


----------



## Bribie G

Just pour it all in, there is actually a cold break that takes place in the cube but that shouldn't cause haze problems.. Coopers kits themselves have cold break in them and on the Coopers website FAQs they state this and reckon it's harmless. Being a protein maybe it's even a good yeast nutrient. I've been getting chill hazes, not so much a problem as I don't freeze the guts out of my UK bitters but Polyclar would be the go, will be polyclaring the one I'm bottling Sunday.


----------



## Cortez The Killer

Beer is clear

Cheers


----------



## Thirsty Boy

MattC said:


> Firstly I will apologise if the answer to my question is somewhere in this thread however time is what i currently have little of.
> 
> Planning on brewing my first all grain 2 moro and using the no chill method. I have a 20L water container from Big W (which holds about 22L i think).
> 
> I brew to fill one corny keg. My specs in brewsmith say batch size as 24L as I leave 4L to the trub.
> 
> I plan on filling the sterilised cube with 20L of wort and then fermenting it, leaving me with enough to fill a corny keg.
> 
> As there is no chilling involved is there more suspended protein material in the cube due to there not being a cold break? and if so is it best not to pour all the cube into the fermenter in order to leave some crud in the bottom? what do others do?
> 
> Cheers



Hey Matt,

you have probably already done your brew, but no one pointed out that you had a wrong assumption in your question.

". . . As there is no chilling involved is there more suspended protein material in the cube due to there not being a cold break? and if so is it best not to pour all the cube into the fermenter in order to leave some crud in the bottom? what do others do? . . ."

There IS a cold break.. the cold break proteins precipitate out of solution at a certain range of temps, how quickly or slowly the wort gets to those temps does not stop the cold break from happening. Some people believe that it happens more _effectively_ with a fast chill, but it still happens with a slow cool.

So your cube _will_ have a bunch of break material in it.. if you transferred clean hot-break free wort into the cube in the first place, all that gunk will be the cold break.

Some people think cold break matters and leave it behind, probably the majority isn't so concerned about cold break and would just pour it into the fermentor. Who is right?? who knows?

For the record, I pour mine in.

TB


----------



## Mantis

I bought a 25lt cube today. It actually holds just shy of 27lt filled to the brim. 
Question is could I no chill 25lt in this successfully. I am guessing that it wouldnt be a good idea, but putting 27 lt in my fermenters would see krausen coming out of the air lock me thinks. 

Mantis


----------



## porky

Mantis said:


> Question is could I no chill 25lt in this successfully.
> 
> Mantis



Yes, I do it all the time. I make 22 lt batches so after transferring to secondary and then into keg I don't have much (or any) left over. 
I soak the cube in bleach and water and rinse. It is clean and won't cause any problems. I do not tip it so hot wort goes into the handle. I know lots of people do, I see no need.
The cube expands at first with the hot wort, then next day it has sucked in, so it hasn't pulled in any air. 
No problems after 35 batches so far.

Cheers,
Bud


----------



## smudge

The only time I don't pour the whole thing into the fermenter is when I want to use the yeast cake for future brews. The less
trub, break etc that is in the fermenter, the cleaner my yeast for my next batch.

Cheers,
smudge


----------



## beerbelly

Going to try the no chill method for my next brew,and could someone just clarify one part of the process for me.After you drain the near boiling wort from the kettle to the cube how long should it sit before i put it in the fridge to cool it down to pitching temp.


----------



## imellor

I Let mine sit on the concrete floor in the shed until it comes down to room temp usually overnight then put in the fridge. Putting it in the fridge hot just overworks your fridge. 

If you have not done it yet make sure you read Wiki No Chill by Cortez The Killer.

:icon_cheers:


----------



## KHB

When i first started AG i no chilled about 4 batches and then bought a plate chiller, but due to time constraints (2 kids under 3) im gonna start night brewing again when i finish work around 9pm. So im gonna pick up a Cube and do my next brew NO CHILL to knock off som e brewing time at 1am in the morning!

KHB


----------



## geoffi

Combine no-chill with double batches and you'll save even more time overall. Takes slightly longer to finish one brew, but you get two for one.



KHB said:


> When i first started AG i no chilled about 4 batches and then bought a plate chiller, but due to time constraints (2 kids under 3) im gonna start night brewing again when i finish work around 9pm. So im gonna pick up a Cube and do my next brew NO CHILL to knock off som e brewing time at 1am in the morning!
> 
> KHB


----------



## KHB

Geoffi said:


> Combine no-chill with double batches and you'll save even more time overall. Takes slightly longer to finish one brew, but you get two for one.




Yeah my kettle allows for 40lt post boil so ferment one and put one away for later. I dont know alot about no chilling so let the learning begin.

KHB


----------



## rjonnz

getting ready to try my first no-chill here in the usa. the cubes i ordered are ldpe instead of hdpe, so i hope it works out. might have to let the wort get down below 95c before i transfer from the brew kettle, from what i've read. seems like a sensible method to me. :beer:


----------



## Damian44

You might want to fill it with boiling water for the 1st time, to make sure no plastic tastes leak into your wort. If you make a couple of extra liters of wort you can give it a ice bath and use it as a starter. GL


----------



## rjonnz

Damian44 said:


> You might want to fill it with boiling water for the 1st time, to make sure no plastic tastes leak into your wort. If you make a couple of extra liters of wort you can give it a ice bath and use it as a starter. GL



great ideas, will do. i'm going to try my first lager in a few days, so i will use any excess ale wort as a starter.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

mmmm - I have no idea of the difference that LDPE vs HDPE is going to make. Probably the cubes will go more "mushy" when heated???

The boiling water is a good idea for a coupe of reasons then.

*First -* are the cubes physically capable of doing what you want them to do?? Be careful. You dont want ot find out when one fails and spills 20L of boiling sugar water all over you. HDPE we know can handle the process. LDPE - ??

*Second -* I wouldn't commit beer to a cube if I hadn't gone through a couple of cycles of filling and cooling the cube with very hot or boiling water. I did this with my cubes till I could no longer tell the difference between water boiled and cooled in a conical flask and water boiled and cooled in the cube. Blind triangle tasting. It took a few times through to get rid of the "taste" from the cube. Other people don't bother with this step and don't seem to have had a problem - but the cooled water tasted nasty.....


----------



## Bizier

I just bought 2 BMW 20L jerrycans from Bunnings yesterday. There are 3 openings, 2 at the top and the bung comes pre-drilled (rather than blind). I didn't realise this when I was buying it, but I think it will be OK if it is ultra clean, then pasteurised. They seem to be pretty heavy duty.

Is anyone else using these?

I plan to test the evap rate and a few other things of my BIAB setup, so I will leave that boiling water to cool in the cubes and see how that goes in rinsing the plastic smell out.


----------



## mckenry

Bizier said:


> I just bought 2 BMW 20L jerrycans from Bunnings yesterday. There are 3 openings, 2 at the top and the bung comes pre-drilled (rather than blind). I didn't realise this when I was buying it, but I think it will be OK if it is ultra clean, then pasteurised. They seem to be pretty heavy duty.
> 
> Is anyone else using these?
> 
> I plan to test the evap rate and a few other things of my BIAB setup, so I will leave that boiling water to cool in the cubes and see how that goes in rinsing the plastic smell out.



Yep, I'm using them. I have 2 X 20L (which are actually closer to 22L) a 10L & a 5L. I like to have minimal head space. So, post boil, I see what I have ended up with and determine which cubes to use. If I end up with 38L - which I aim for, I'll fill a 20 (22) the 10 (which is 10) and the 5, then keep a litre as a starter in a PET. If I get something less, the starter misses the bus first and backwards from there. If I go for a proper double batch, the 2 X 22L are filled as best as can be. Doubles are my mash tun limit - it's getting chockers in there - as I batch sparge.


----------



## Bizier

Cheers Mckenry.

My plan is to hopefully do triple batches with a 100L BIAB setup, even if it means adding some extra grain to hit numbers + a top up of water while boiling. That way I can do 2 into cubes and one (possibly smaller vol) straight to the fermenter, possibly via counterflow chiller/hopback, though I am still unsure about that side of things.


----------



## chucke

rjonnz said:


> getting ready to try my first no-chill here in the usa. the cubes i ordered are ldpe instead of hdpe, so i hope it works out. might have to let the wort get down below 95c before i transfer from the brew kettle, from what i've read. seems like a sensible method to me. :beer:



Hi,
US Plastic Corp. sells HDPE 5 gallon cubes. Make sure to order over $30 (or $35?) and shipping isn't too bad.

I've ordered from them before with no hassle or drama.

I use their cubitainers for a Quasi Real Ale system.
Also their 5 liter cubes with an added air lock for more authentic real ale.
5 liters is good size for individual use within the time period where the beer will go bad.


----------



## RagingBull

Left my cube overnight (on it's side) - just read the guide and confirmed that it should have been upright (overnight).

Picked it up this morning and stood it upright, and "hiss".

Starting to worry whether my now chilled wort could be prone to infection.

Mind you, the sides are still sucked in and perhaps this was air escaping?

I plan to transfer it into the fermenter tonight, so fingers crossed.

Nothing to worry about?

Cheers,


----------



## Cortez The Killer

Should be ok

Just get yeast in ASAP

Cheers


----------



## clean brewer

> Mind you, the sides are still sucked in and perhaps this was air escaping?



Thatll be fine, its just air..


----------



## RagingBull

Thanks guys, your help is much appreciated.
I've been lurking on the forum reading every day at work on my lunch break for the past month or two.. its becomming very addictive!


----------



## Bribie G

Bit of air doesn't do any harm at this stage, after all when you gloop it into the fermenter then pitch the yeast you are exposing it to the air, which is a good thing because you need some oxygenation. Then the surface of the beer will be exposed to air until the yeast takes hold.
I know what you mean about addictive, I was listening to a podcast on the train on the way home last night (I subscribe to all sorts of interesting stuff like the science show etc) and sorting out my brew day mentally at the same time. Eventually I turned off the MP3 player "shut up, I'm trying to think here" :lol:


----------



## Damian44

Hey. I have two cubes, one square and one rectangle. Neither of them suck in after the wort cools :angry: . 
Im in the market to buy two more cubes but not sure which ones to get. Could anyone recommend a certain type of cube and where to purchase them?

TYVM Damian


----------



## clean brewer

Damian44 said:


> Hey. I have two cubes, one square and one rectangle. Neither of them suck in after the wort cools :angry: .
> Im in the market to buy two more cubes but not sure which ones to get. Could anyone recommend a certain type of cube and where to purchase them?
> 
> TYVM Damian



They should just stay sucked in once you push the air out after putting hot wort in and sealing up tight....  Unless the lid isnt sealing to well but shouldnt matter to much... I make sure I use a damp chux to get the lid really tight when sealing up...

:icon_cheers: CB


----------



## Gavo

CB, how does the damp chux help? I just usually tighten it up till I reckon I've just about peeled the thread off.


Cheers
Gavo.


----------



## clean brewer

gavo said:


> CB, how does the damp chux help? I just usually tighten it up till I reckon I've just about peeled the thread off.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Gavo.


Just helps to get a good grip on it and ultra tight without ripping my hand apart....  Need a good grip mate!!!


----------



## Gavo

clean brewer said:


> Just helps to get a good grip on it and ultra tight without ripping my hand apart....  Need a good grip mate!!!



I was thinking that, Just thought the there may be some other reason of much more scientific interest. Will give the method a go though and compare the difference.


Cheers
Gavo.


----------



## clean brewer

gavo said:


> I was thinking that, Just thought the there may be some other reason of much more scientific interest. Will give the method a go though and compare the difference.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Gavo.


Nothing Scientific Gavo.... Just gets it a bit tighter than using your bare hand....


----------



## smollocks

You can practice with an empty cube. Squeeze it in to push the air out, and close the lid tightly. If it is airtight it will remain squashed in, and will suck in air when you open the lid.


----------



## malbur

Damian44 said:


> Hey. I have two cubes, one square and one rectangle. Neither of them suck in after the wort cools :angry: .
> Im in the market to buy two more cubes but not sure which ones to get. Could anyone recommend a certain type of cube and where to purchase them?
> 
> TYVM Damian



Damian,

If you decide to go the square cube, have a look on ebay.
there is a bloke at Gosford on the central coast who is selling 25litre cubes for $4.00 ea.
I think he said he had fifty or sixty of these. they have had vinegar in them, i have four of them and no problems with taste.
Might be worth the drive,i think i still have his phone number, if your interested PM me, and i will have a look for it.


----------



## Damian44

I dropped into a big hardware store and paid $50 for two 20L rectangle cubes. Ripped off. There Willow and dont have the hole at the bottom drilled.

Im now thinking i should of put that towards a chiller. Do Bunnings do refunds?

Someone was saying you shouldnt tighten the lids too much. Not sure why.

Thanks Damain


----------



## pdilley

hmm they ar $13 or was it $14 each for the proper no chill cubes at Brew Your Own At Home, in Kambah. $50 is pretty far out amount to pay for plastic. I could almost get a big glass imported Demijohn when you start getting that high in price for plastic. I'd return them. Tell em they dont fit in your camper and you need to get smaller ones that will fit if you need an excuse. Then casually not be able to find any that will fit in the store.


----------



## Damian44

Ill give that a try tomorrow morning Brewer Pete. So plate chillers are all the go now?


----------



## pdilley

Not in Canberra, its called open the back door and sit outside and it will be ultra chilly by morning. Works for me as i finish brewing at night and im awake before the suns up and i have shaded backyard deck area so no sunlight hits the brew. Im a boil, chill, pitch into fermenter with starter the following day brewer to date.


----------



## Damian44

Canberra is cold, only 2 months out of the year the Mean Minimum Temp is above 12C. :beerbang: That little fellow is shivering.
I hope you like lagers.


----------



## pdilley

Remind me of that this summer as it pushes near 45!
Extremes is more like it, no wonder the front gardens in canberra are dirt and bark


----------



## chucke

So work was slow today, the weather was relatively cool and the fermentation fridge was full- so- I finally got a chance to try the no chill thingy. 

Mega-cool. Thanks and hats off to the originator of this technique.


----------



## Bribie G

With the recent coolish snap here in SEQ with 8 degree nights, I've been getting an evening brew and a morning pitch same as Brewer Pete. Golden brewing months.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Damian44 said:


> I dropped into a big hardware store and paid $50 for two 20L rectangle cubes. Ripped off. There Willow and dont have the hole at the bottom drilled.
> 
> Im now thinking i should of put that towards a chiller. Do Bunnings do refunds?
> 
> Someone was saying you shouldnt tighten the lids too much. Not sure why.
> 
> Thanks Damain



Damian - 

I think that most people leave the hole undrilled in their no chill cubes. Taps are prone to being knocked out or even just popping out when teh cube is full of boiling hot wort and quite soft. Some people use taps.. but most dont.

If you tighten the lid too much - it will jump the thread and maybe wreck it. Once again, things are soft and soggy at the high temperatures.

Cost for chillers/ cubes is probably the weakest argument in favour of no-chill. Water savings, time savings, flexibility and convenience are the better reasons to consider no-chill. Cost wise -- its usually just that more often people can afford $20 for a cube _now_ ... which means they can start brewing. But $100 for a chiller might mean they have to wait a while longer.

Although I am not a fan - people also no-chill in their fermentors or (even less of a fan) in the kettle. That comes for free.

TB


----------



## Damian44

I got a plate chiller, so im very happy. And the Willow cubes will come in handy for beers that dont have much late hops additions that i want to nochill. I could even give them a dip in the pool, as the hole is not cut out.

Great work TB on your experiment on cube bitterness. It should probably have a link to this thread.... http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry488265


----------



## extra-cheese

Howdy all,
Just a quick question, when you are ready to ferment your wort how do you bring the no-chill wort back up to pitching temp? (I am assuming that your ambient temperature is lower than the required pitching temp, as mine is)

cheers,
brad


----------



## Cortez The Killer

How much lower?

I've been making starters or repitching yeast cake and haven't worried about pitching temps 

But in clement Wollongong it doesn't get too cool in the garage any how

You could use a heat belt / pad or bring the cube to a warmer part of the house a little while before you pitch

But if you ensure you have a good amount of yeast it should be a problem

Cheers


----------



## geoffi

extra-cheese said:


> Howdy all,
> Just a quick question, when you are ready to ferment your wort how do you bring the no-chill wort back up to pitching temp? (I am assuming that your ambient temperature is lower than the required pitching temp, as mine is)
> 
> cheers,
> brad



That's Fairlight NSW, right? I can't imagine the ambient temp there would be far off a decent pitching temp for an ale. If you've left it outside overnight it might cool down a bit, but nothing a few hours indoors wouldn't sort out.


----------



## pdilley

I think it was -1C this morning! Complete turbo no-chill outdoors 

If I only didn't have work. I could brew all day and chill all night!



Did I hear incorrectly, are some people putting taps on the no-chill cubes and then fermenting in them?


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## Cortez The Killer

I've had taps on my cubes for a long while - starting to move away from then due to leaks 

But haven't heard of anyone fermenting in the same cube - there wouldn't be the room - and it increases the risk of infection imho

Cheers




Brewer Pete said:


> I think it was -1C this morning! Complete turbo no-chill outdoors
> 
> If I only didn't have work. I could brew all day and chill all night!
> 
> 
> 
> Did I hear incorrectly, are some people putting taps on the no-chill cubes and then fermenting in them?
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete


----------



## hando

extra-cheese said:


> Howdy all,
> Just a quick question, when you are ready to ferment your wort how do you bring the no-chill wort back up to pitching temp? (I am assuming that your ambient temperature is lower than the required pitching temp, as mine is)
> 
> cheers,
> brad



Hey extra! welcome to the forum.

You could take it to bed with you, it'll be right for pitching in the morning.
:beerbang:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

The wort in the cube is not delicate or temperature sensitive like it would be if you had pitched yeast already - you can just point a fan heater at the cube till it warms up. If it gets too warm... just let it cool down again.

TB


----------



## Jase

Geoffi said:


> That's Fairlight NSW, right? I can't imagine the ambient temp there would be far off a decent pitching temp for an ale. If you've left it outside overnight it might cool down a bit, but nothing a few hours indoors wouldn't sort out.



Wish I read this yesterday. Decided to ferment my 1st AG, made on Tuesday. Cube sitting in garage for two days. Aerated wort into fermenter, pitched Safale S-04, and put the fermenter in fermenting fridge, hooked up the thermometer and was shocked to see 11 degrees :unsure: 

The fermenter has been wrapped in a blanket since 9pm last night,in the lounge room and is now up to 16 degrees and still no activity. Starting to get worried.  

Not too sure whether to wait a bit longer to see if there is activity or pitch another yeast????

Cheers,
Jase

Sorry just realised slightly off topic!!! h34r:


----------



## MCT

Jase said:


> Wish I read this yesterday. Decided to ferment my 1st AG, made on Tuesday. Cube sitting in garage for two days. Aerated wort into fermenter, pitched Safale S-04, and put the fermenter in fermenting fridge, hooked up the thermometer and was shocked to see 11 degrees :unsure:
> 
> The fermenter has been wrapped in a blanket since 9pm last night,in the lounge room and is now up to 16 degrees and still no activity. Starting to get worried.
> 
> Not too sure whether to wait a bit longer to see if there is activity or pitch another yeast????
> 
> Cheers,
> Jase
> 
> Sorry just realised slightly off topic!!! h34r:


 :icon_offtopic: But you'll be right Jase, the cold temps won't hurt the yeast. Give it another 24 hours and try to get it to 18c.


----------



## extra-cheese

hando said:


> Hey extra! welcome to the forum.
> 
> You could take it to bed with you, it'll be right for pitching in the morning.
> :beerbang:




Thanks guys, this forum is awesome, very informative.

cheers,
brad


----------



## Nostalgia

Good morning! I hope you don't mind a fella from the 'States joining in the discussion here.

I've been reading the no-chill threads with quite a bit of interest. I recently grabbed one of these 7-gallon HDPE containers and am excited to try my first no-chill next week.

I had a question about headspace in the vessel: I've been reading that it is recommended to purge the headspace of air before sealing if I'm planning to store the wort for longer than a few days. Is there any reasoning behind this? It seems like the right thing to do, but I'm just curious if there's any science behind it.

We're not worried about HSA, and it's pre-pitching so the yeast should scrub any oxygen out during fermentation. Is there another issue I'm missing?

Thanks,

-Joe


----------



## MCT

Nostalgia said:


> Good morning! I hope you don't mind a fella from the 'States joining in the discussion here.
> 
> I've been reading the no-chill threads with quite a bit of interest. I recently grabbed one of these 7-gallon HDPE containers and am excited to try my first no-chill next week.
> 
> I had a question about headspace in the vessel: I've been reading that it is recommended to purge the headspace of air before sealing if I'm planning to store the wort for longer than a few days. Is there any reasoning behind this? It seems like the right thing to do, but I'm just curious if there's any science behind it.
> 
> We're not worried about HSA, and it's pre-pitching so the yeast should scrub any oxygen out during fermentation. Is there another issue I'm missing?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Joe



That's a good question, I would've thought that sanitisation is one issue, although if the headspace is not huge (ie. more than 5%), it would probably be pasteurized by the heat from the wort.

I think that if storing from a long time, you would want to get rid of as much oxygen as possible, if not you are increasing your chances of oxidation, HSA or otherwise, big time. 

Myself, it's not a big issue to source cubes of an appropriate volume. A simple towel covered knee to a boiling hot cube at an angle is usually enough to purge all cubes of worries.


----------



## Nostalgia

MCT said:


> That's a good question, I would've thought that sanitisation is one issue, although if the headspace is not huge (ie. more than 5%), it would probably be pasteurized by the heat from the wort.
> 
> I think that if storing from a long time, you would want to get rid of as much oxygen as possible, if not you are increasing your chances of oxidation, HSA or otherwise, big time.
> 
> Myself, it's not a big issue to source cubes of an appropriate volume. A simple towel covered knee to a boiling hot cube at an angle is usually enough to purge all cubes of worries.


Thanks for the reply! I agree, sanitation shouldn't be an issue. I'm guessing the oxidation is the big reason for it. That's really why I asked, because I thought we wanted oxygenation pre-fermentation.

I also agree it's not a big deal to purge the air. I'm just a curious mind, I guess 

-Joe


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Squeezing the air out of the headspace is about preventing oxidation of the wort - in the circumstance of an NC cube .. its all going to be the equivalent of HSA. It will just happen faster when things are actually hot. The yeast scavenging oxygen is beside the point, we are talking about oxidation happening before the pitch - to the wort itself. Most likely is that, just like regular HSA, it wont result in noticable off flavours in and of itself - but rather it will "use up" some of the wort's existing anti oxidant properties, leaving it more vulnerable to regular old oxidation and pre-mature aging once its packaged.

There is perhaps a mild argument around sanitation and bugs in the airspace not being killed - I find that argument less compelling assuming as said above that you dont have a stupidly large headspace.

I squeeze out the air in my NC cubes for the oxidation reason -- BUT -- there are quite a few people, and I believe most of the commercial hot packed fresh wort kits too, that _don't_ purge or squeeze out the airspace. So its not like its a no arguments situation.

I would be concerned if you had a "big" headspace ... but I wouldn't sweat it too much if its only an inch or so and you are going to use the wort within a month. Don't go shaking the damn thing up while its hot or anything though. Treat ti gently and you will be fine either way.

TB


----------



## RdeVjun

Brewer Pete said:


> Did I hear incorrectly, are some people putting taps on the no-chill cubes and then fermenting in them?


Yes Pete, sorry for the slow follow up as I've just spotted your query, but, yeah I'll put my hand up to that. Sometimes I do ferment directly in the NC cube and it seems to work fairly well, no major problems so far. There's various opinions on the matter, I haven't had any disasters with it so I continue to do it.
It just requires an incompletely- filled NC (i.e. a cube with with a fair headspace) and a sturdy tap- although the tap can be fitted afterwards when its cooled if sanitation is up to scratch.

Pluses: No transfer into a fermenter, so one less container to prepare/ clean (plus cleaning the now- dirty cube although it has to be cleaned after the show is over, see below) and of course risk infection when transferring the un-inoculated wort out of the NC cube. Aeration is very easy, just open it up to let some fresh air in, shake it up or roll across the floor, although getting fresh air into it is not easy and I wonder about the oxygenation efficiency with smaller volumes of air. Efficient use of space in fermenting fridge- I can fit four cubes in some of my fridges, all (past & present) will only take a maximum of two cylindricals.

Minuses: Depending upon boil equipment/ method, it can be fermenting on break material/hop debris that would be left behind when transferring a NC cube into a fermenter. Taps can pop out or be knocked off, this hasn't happened to me though. Cleaning the high water mark (krausen) can be difficult, but I load with detergent and soak overnight, pop a dishcloth in then give it a vigorous shake, I don't seem to get much muck in the handle thankfully.

Fermenting in a cube suits my main method of BIAB in a 19L stockpot rather well, I just accept that for AG batches they're slightly smaller, while full- sized (21-23L) partials (2/3 grain, 1/3 extract top up) can fit in a 25L cube but a vigorous ferment and high krausen will make a mess. I've used a 15L cube as well, for small batches they work just as well. An airlock can be used or, as I do nowadays, just a small square of clingfilm and a rubber band. I still use my cylindrical fermenters though, I figured that as I was often transferring into a cube for secondary that it might work for primary as well and, as is said with the proof of the pudding etc- I'm enjoying the product of this adapted process right now!

For sure, there would be other +/-es to this process, and I'm always open to discussing methods so will happily float this up for scrutiny. AFAIK though, yeast don't seem to notice the different- shaped primary fermenter, which, the above aside, is what it really boils down to...

Anyway, so far, so good, here's a link to a previous discussion. My 2c...


----------



## ///

Just seeing this ... been a while since looking at this thread ...

* Headspace - keep to a minimum. The HDPE cubes does overtime allow oxygen egress, as i have been advised. I am sitting next to a former industrial chemist who helped developed a lot of plastics with ICI in the 60's/70's .... but he is 'watching the footy' with his eyes closed and will check later on over dinner.

* Pitch temps - it is good to pitch a few degree's lower. In our 2400l tanks at work we cant physically see the wort, so have to use wort pH drop or a rise in tank temp as indicators of fermentation start.

Scotty


----------



## The Mad Hopper

Do you need to adjust late hops additions when using no chill?


----------



## clean brewer

The Mad Hopper said:


> Do you need to adjust late hops additions when using no chill?



I do.... :icon_cheers:


----------



## Gavo

The Mad Hopper said:


> Do you need to adjust late hops additions when using no chill?






clean brewer said:


> I do.... :icon_cheers:



I have started doing the same and will continue to do so. Even though I whirlpool and leave most of the hop material behind I feel there is still a need to adjust for no-chill. For me this adjustment is a couple of IBU's.


Gavo.


----------



## buttersd70

The Mad Hopper said:


> Do you need to adjust late hops additions when using no chill?



I don't. Having said that, it's rare that I go >0.75g/L on the late hops anyway.


----------



## The Mad Hopper

Cheers guys. Given that I'm just starting out AG, I might not worry for now, but I'll definitely keep it in mind for when I've gotten my technique running smoothly!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

The Mad Hopper said:


> Cheers guys. Given that I'm just starting out AG, I might not worry for now, but I'll definitely keep it in mind for when I've gotten my technique running smoothly!



If you are just starting out and you haven't brewed with any other method than no-chill - you probably wont notice a difference. You will just notice that you do or don't like the bitterness level of certain recipes.

If you find that you always want to make an adjustment from the recipes you have found - just a little too bitter, might cut it back next time.. - then you need to adjust for your method ... whether it s no chill of not.

That's the trick - don't worry so much abut what you read, worry about what you taste. Your beers will start to really reflect your personal tastes after you have had time to brew and re-brew them. Anyone who is brewing a recipe for the first time, is nearly as in the dark as you are as a new brewer. All we have going for us is trends we have notice over multiple brews. The first crack at a recipe for even the most experienced AG brewer is still a great big pile of pot luck, tempered by experience.

And no advice you can get in electrons over the internet, can substitute for that experience.

I would subtract a few IBUs if you are using no-chill ... but to be honest, thats just the way it works for me. It might not for you. So you'll just have to give it a go.

TB


----------



## troopa

I totally agree with TBs last comment that its all about personal preference on what YOU like.
No matter how good a recipe is you will inevitably change the recipe slightly next time to to accommodate for your tastes
Just go with the recipe and adjust next time if flavors seem a little too bitter or sweet

Tom


----------



## rude

jeez so many beers to brew & drink & so little time.
Ive done 5 ags boy have I got a long way to go.
Mash high mash low still no chillen gotta try imersion probabley lead to plate chilling.
FWH ing, pellets, plugs, flowers, hop backs.
The yeasts how do you try all of them .
The combinations are unbelievable.
Anyway at the moment just trying to nail a pommy bitter for a house regular.
Bought a sack(25kg) of ale malt = 5 brews no chilled with my old 20 litre camping water jerry cans (plastic) but gotta buy one with the plastic still in for the tap as when it gets hot the thread after a few brews gets so hot it is hard to tighten up leaks.
no chilling is a great way to start AG ing thats for sure cheers cortez for the advice you have given me
to a cheap way of aging for starters.
Have seen some stainless jerrycans for sale at camping stores but the price is up there $150 I think but I recon that would be ok for no chilling as you could still push the sides in to get all the air out .
Only thinking of plastic leach here & saving water compared to chilling.
Still miss on the cold break though dont you?
Sorry for the ramble as I have had one of my 7.3% stuff up ales(measured the grain incorrectly but is drinking ok at the moment ) & I am jibbering a bit.
cheers all


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Even after more than a hundred brews ... I still feel the same. 

re: cold break. No you dont miss out on cold break. It still happens in no-chill. Cold break happens when the wort is too cool for dissolved break material to stay in solution and it precipitates out. Exactly the same thing as chill haze ... which is just the coldest of cold break.

The speed at which you chill, doesn't make a whole heap of difference. Its the temperature of the wort, not how fast you get it there.


----------



## chadjaja

Just how do you transfer the near boiling wort into the cube if your boiler doesn't have a tap? Pouring would surely be too violent bring oxygen with it not to mention being a tad dangerous. 

Is there a safe syphon option using specific hose etc?


----------



## altone

chadjaja said:


> Just how do you transfer the near boiling wort into the cube if your boiler doesn't have a tap? Pouring would surely be too violent bring oxygen with it not to mention being a tad dangerous.
> 
> Is there a safe syphon option using specific hose etc?



Well you could always try a length of silicone hose with one of those stainless siphon hose tips. 
Gryphonbrewing.com.au have them and I'm sure many other places - just noticed them there when ordering some yeasties.

I use the silicone hose on my kettle (but with a tap) to transfer wort - doesn't get too hot to hold.


----------



## chadjaja

Ahhh that looks the go! Thanks very much. Even if it does get warm its not hard to simply hold the hose with a pot holder but there will be minimal handling anyway transferring it to a cube. That syphon is great and solves that problem too on the cheap too. That hose aint cheapish though. 

Problem solved!


----------



## ausdb

chadjaja said:


> Just how do you transfer the near boiling wort into the cube if your boiler doesn't have a tap? Pouring would surely be too violent bring oxygen with it not to mention being a tad dangerous.
> 
> Is there a safe syphon option using specific hose etc?


A stainless racking cane with a stainless scrubby on the end and clear vinyl beverage tube works, the tubing gets all soft and flexible but still works ok.


----------



## Scruffy

chucke said:


> My main question- would the first runnings, mashed at about 67c (153f) be hot enough to kill the nasties in the cube?



No.

But if you're just leaving it till the first lot is racked, you should be ok. Clean & sanitise...

Do you have a different plan (hops/adjuncts/sugars?) for the second lot? 

I more or less end up wih two 23l cubes of _boiled_ wort for the house bitter - so you just pour and pitch, no more boiling, I can keep the second cube for months... Dry hop in the secondary... Whatever your preference.


----------



## chucke

Oops. 
I got to thinking about my idea, and the more I thought about it, the less sense it made... so I deleted it- without checking to see if there was a response. Sorry-


----------



## KHB

Just pitched a beer i no chilled 5 months ago! Interested to see if its the same as the one i made when it first got done.

Cheers


----------



## Elbow

Hi All,

I've done 5 or so, mainly ale's, etc with no problems. I've just bought 5kg of Weyermann to have a crack at a BIAB pilsner. I was informed that German malts are prone to DMS and as such should be chilled ASAP. This is not an option for me at the moment, I can only no-chill. The same person informed me that if i chilled a little bit (ice cubes in a laundry tub) to between 50-70 degrees and _then _transferred to a no chill cube that would be ok.

Does this sound right? I would have of thought it's one or the other?


----------



## WarmBeer

Elbow said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've done 5 or so, mainly ale's, etc with no problems. I've just bought 5kg of Weyermann to have a crack at a BIAB pilsner. I was informed that German malts are prone to DMS and as such should be chilled ASAP. This is not an option for me at the moment, I can only no-chill. The same person informed me that if i chilled a little bit (ice cubes in a laundry tub) to between 50-70 degrees and _then _transferred to a no chill cube that would be ok.
> 
> Does this sound right? I would have of thought it's one or the other?


No-chill into a cube should be done as hot as possible. This way the cube itself, which may not be 100% sanitised, is in contact with high temperatures for an extended period of time (pasteurisation) which has a pretty good chance of killing off any nasties that manage to sidestep your standard sanitation regime.

It also has the benefit that as the wort "shrinks" due to cooling, it sucks in the sides of the cube. If you have managed to get a good seal on the cube and expelled most of your headspace, you can tell that there is no air getting into the cube, as the sides should remain slightly concave.

For the DMS part, sorry, can't help you, never brewed with that sort of grain. My understanding is that a 90 minute boil, without a lid, should drive off the precursors to DMS.


----------



## Bribie G

Elbow said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've done 5 or so, mainly ale's, etc with no problems. I've just bought 5kg of Weyermann to have a crack at a BIAB pilsner. I was informed that German malts are prone to DMS and as such should be chilled ASAP. This is not an option for me at the moment, I can only no-chill. The same person informed me that if i chilled a little bit (ice cubes in a laundry tub) to between 50-70 degrees and _then _transferred to a no chill cube that would be ok.
> 
> Does this sound right? I would have of thought it's one or the other?



A 90 minute or even a two hour boil (as many Czech breweries do I believe) should fix any DMS problems. I've used Wey malts with no problems in that department, and I no chill exclusively. Just keep an eye on your boil volume, you may need to top up during the boil.


----------



## argon

BribieG said:


> A 90 minute or even a two hour boil (as many Czech breweries do I believe) should fix any DMS problems. I've used Wey malts with no problems in that department, and I no chill exclusively. Just keep an eye on your boil volume, you may need to top up during the boil.



After a few DMS problems of my own, i've come to the conclusion that boilding hard and long will get rid of the majority of DMS precursors... so go for that. Get a nice vigorous boil going and go for a minimum of 90 mins... that should sort it out.

IIRC Ross said that when he does no-chill he partially chills the wort to around 75C or so and then drains to the NC Cube. At those temps the nasties will still get knocked out, even if exposed to high temps for shorter periods of time. But for me... knowing my own ineptitude at proper sanitation (not evidence based just a general feeling that i'm reasonably half-arsed) i prefer to add the wort to the cube as hot as possible, thus ensuring it's killed of as much as possible.


----------



## Elbow

Cool, thanks for the replies guys. I'll do a 90 minute boil, maybe longer and hopefully that will do the trick. Just need to work out my hop additions now, supposed to do 10 minute and flame out additions. Anyone point me in the right direction? Pretty please!


----------



## WarmBeer

Elbow said:


> Cool, thanks for the replies guys. I'll do a 90 minute boil, maybe longer and hopefully that will do the trick. Just need to work out my hop additions now, supposed to do 10 minute and flame out additions. Anyone point me in the right direction? Pretty please!


The common wisdom is to move your late-addition hops back by about 15 minutes if you're going to no-chill.

In your instance, I would add your 10 minute hops at flameout/whirlpool, and add your flame-out hops directly into the cube (that's right, dry hops straight into the cube, pour your hot wort straight on top of them).

If you really want to get that aroma hop hit, have a search around for "tea hopping". Involves steeping the hops in a Bodum french press, and adding them to the fermenting beer at about day 4 of fermentation.


----------



## argon

WarmBeer said:


> The common wisdom is to move your late-addition hops back by about 15 minutes if you're going to no-chill.
> 
> In your instance, I would add your 10 minute hops at flameout/whirlpool, and add your flame-out hops directly into the cube (that's right, dry hops straight into the cube, pour your hot wort straight on top of them).
> 
> If you really want to get that aroma hop hit, have a search around for "tea hopping". Involves steeping the hops in a Bodum french press, and adding them to the fermenting beer at about day 4 of fermentation.




+1 for moving back all additions by 15 mins. or adjust the IBU accordingly if you have the sotware. 
+1 also for cube hopping... gives great results


----------



## Elbow

Gracias!

I'll have a go at the the IBU's. Don't have s/w as yet, now might be the time! I think I've steeped before, using a coffee plunger then adding to secondary.


----------



## aaronpetersen

I was just reading another thread about using an Olive Oil fusti as a fermenter which lead me to wondering if you could use a 20L olive oil drum as a NC cube? I assume they're stainless. What are peoples thoughts, would they be alright?


----------



## argon

Well thought Id report in on a swollen cube :angry: first one ever first infection in an AG brew thatd make 1 out of about 30+ batches

Not sure what happened. Luckily I do double batches into 2 cubes. Cube 1 is fine no infection the second has swollen up. 

Pitched the first cube about a week before the second so hopefully its not a case of not knowing the first was infected.

I pitched the second one anyway just to see what happens. Its a munich lager so Id say Ill notice any off flavours fairly easily. When I opened the cube it had a small ring of gelatinized clearish/whitish gunk on the inside of the lid and opening. 

I did the usual method of filling and squeezing as much air as possible, sealing up, then tipping on the side to pasteurize the lid. Same method Ive always been using. I also starsan the cube and lid shake it all around and leave it for at least 30 mins. Open the cube up just at flame out, pour out sanitizer, shake as mush foam out as possible, then drain the kettle into it so not sure where it picked up the infection.

Only thing I can think of is that the lid wasnt sealed properly... although it didnt leak and I had a hard time getting it off at pitching. 

Anyhoo see what happens to this batch maybe next time Ill be adding boiling water to the cube first shake and bake, then starsan, then drain to cube. Ill probably bleach the cube and use some other sanitizers in the meantime before using it again or might just be a good enough excuse for new cube.


----------



## cdbrown

When I cleaned out some cubes recently before using them (hadn't been used for a long time) I noticed that the bung including the thread had some nasties on it. No I make sure to remove the bung and give it a good clean before use. Just an idea.


----------



## argon

cdbrown said:


> When I cleaned out some cubes recently before using them (hadn't been used for a long time) I noticed that the bung including the thread had some nasties on it. No I make sure to remove the bung and give it a good clean before use. Just an idea.



My cubes are sealed and don't have bungs... which i reckon is a good thing... but does bring up a thought regarding the lid gasket and thread... i reckon i should probably give the thread a scrub and remove the gasket and give it a good clean before next use.


----------



## Fourstar

cdbrown said:


> When I cleaned out some cubes recently before using them (hadn't been used for a long time) I noticed that the bung including the thread had some nasties on it. No I make sure to remove the bung and give it a good clean before use. Just an idea.




the good thing about the willo cubes is the bung is not drilled so there is no point fro infection.

also make sure your lid seals correctly and you rinse any wort away from the lid. i have only had one bad cubed wort. it wasnt infected internally but the thread on the cube was covered in black mould. i wasnt going to risk it and tipped it.


----------



## argon

Fourstar said:


> the good thing about the willo cubes is the bung is not drilled so there is no point fro infection.
> 
> also make sure your lid seals correctly and you rinse any wort away from the lid. i have only had one bad cubed wort. it wasnt infected internally but the thread on the cube was covered in black mould. i wasnt going to risk it and tipped it.




Lid seemed on fine enough... sat on it's side for 12 hours or so... no leaks... always give the outside of the cube a bit of clean and spray some sanitiser on it too.

probably wasted a couple of good packets of swiss lager yeast on this batch.. but worth a shot anyway...smells ok in the fermenter now, but that could be a bad thing considering lager fermentation. Looks like i'll all but flame sanitse the brewery after this.


----------



## insane_rosenberg

Thanks Cortez, awesome Wiki.

I did my first all-grain (BIAB) on the weekend. Then essentially did a no-chill into my 25L glass Demijohn. Luckily no shattering/cracks! However I don't think the few litres of (oxygen containing) headspace during no-chill is a good idea. Espescially seeing it foamed out of the airlock yesterday (3 days into fermentation)! Hopefully it's not infected!

Cleaning the semi fermented bre out of my demijohn basket wasn't much fun either... But the brew is now transferred into my coopers plastic fermenter.

Next time I think I'll use my trusty 20L plastic jerry can.

Thanks again!


----------



## ///

what do you mean chilling your beer? are you ment to drink it cold? i find that if i leave it in the back of my car for a few months i get way more drunker.


----------



## beers

/// said:


> i find that if i leave it in the back of my car for a few months i get way more drunker.



sounds like it's working for you 

is that a jab at no chilling coming from someone who used to make & sell fresh wort kits?


----------



## ///

Sadly someone has been playing with my account ... look away ...

Scotty


----------



## TBird

Rays Outdoors has 25 litre cubes on special for $10


----------



## Mikedub

this excellent tutorial on no chill cubing says 

'After flameout and whirlpooling, and with appropriate hosing, drain the still near boiling wort into a plastic cube, trying to avoiding splashing'. 

also 'Pour the contents of the cube into a fermenter, splashing as much as possible to assist in aeration and pitch yeast as you would normally'

wondering the scientific reason why there is a need to aerate into the fermenter but avoided into the cube?


----------



## manticle

Aerating the wort when hot or the beer once fermented can lead to oxidation and staling. During the short aerobic growth cycle of the yeast, the yeast will benefit from the presence of oxygen in the wort.

Look up 'hot side aeration', 'beer oxidation' and 'oxygenation of wort'


----------



## Mikedub

ta Manticle, will do, 


....and how can I get some more of those little brown kegs that sit under my avatar, having just the one is making me feel insecure :unsure:


----------



## MarkBastard

Spam post and ye shall receive.


----------



## Mikedub

O.


----------



## Mikedub

K.


----------



## Bizier

I will add my most recent NC experience.

I have been trying NC for hoppy beers with unsatisfactury results. I find that if I add the hops to the cube (in IPA quantities anyway) I get an unpleasant astringency, I am assuming from the long contact time. Plus there is no real hop aroma without dry hopping. I am also trying to avoid dry hopping, as I don't like racking, and if I dry hop with yeast, I have been getting a strawberry ester thing that I hate.

Last brew, I did a 40 min boil addition, then a 2 min boil addition, then whirlpooled, and waited (lid on kettle) for wort temp to get to 80 degrees, then added more hops (pellets) and stirred for a while to ensure they received contact, then whirpooled again (probably should have skipped the first one), waited a few mins, and transferred to cubes, and tried to ensure they were in an area that they would cool reasonably soon after paseurising for a bit.

I know other people have done similar things, but the idea was to balance between pasteurisation and hop oil preservation.

Pitched next evening. 2 days in, fermenting beer tastes noticeably 'brighter' which is very nice. The aroma is all malt, and no hops, which is disappointing, but the hop flavour is much better. I am definitely happier with this result from the early tasting.

For the record, it took the kettle about 1hr and 5mins to drop 20 degrees, outside, lid on, ambient temp around 27 degrees with constant breeze.


----------



## TBird

Any thoughts on using yeast nutrients with no chill? Does yeast nutrient still work with no chill given the yeast is pitched some time after the boil?

Cheers


----------



## felten

yes. it won't just disappear


----------



## HoppingMad

Reported.


----------



## Bizier

I wish to report back on my NC method, unfortunately negatively.

I just fermented out an Imperial IPA, yes, perhaps not the star candidate for the technique, but I have to say that all of my post-boil aroma-steep type additions were basically in vain. I am unsure how others have succeeded so well in doing this. I am going to dry hop the crap out of this beer, but I have to say that unfortunately now it kind of tastes like Bush Ambre (Scaldis), which is due to sugars etc, but throwing the following hops in the bin would have produced a similar result:

44L:
30.00 gm Nelson Sauvin 09 [11.50 %] (30 min) (AromHops - 
30.00 gm Amarillo [8.50 %] (30 min) (Aroma Hop-SteHops - 
60.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (30 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 
60.00 gm Centennial 08 [9.70 %] (30 min) (Aroma HoHops - 
60.00 gm Simcoe 08 [12.20 %] (15 min) (Aroma Hop-SHops - 

~5.45g/L

I will be moving to chilled territory as soon as I can, at least for hoppy beers.

I love the technique for beers that use hops for balancing the sweetness, but if the hop aroma and flavour is a big part, such as APAs and even a CZ pils, then I would advocate the chiller.


----------



## aaronpetersen

I apologise if this question has been asked earlier in this thread, but I don't really want to read all 13 pages. Anyway, my question is, why is it so important to squeeze all the air out of the cube? The reason I ask is that I want to do a small batch (~15L) and my smallest cube is 20L (actually 23L) so there's no way I'll be able to squeeze all the air out. I know you can buy 15L cubes, but I'm a tight-arse and don't want to buy a cube just for this one brew.
edit: poor grammar


----------



## razz

It's squeezing all of the air out of the cube Aaron so you don't get oxygen spoiling the wort


----------



## Cortez The Killer

I've not bothered squeezing lately

No ill effects to report 

I do try and use the cube within a week though

Cheers


----------



## mje1980

Me too gino, i never bother squeezing the air out. The temp in the cube is that hot when i seal it, that anything in that tiny amount of air will be dead by the time it cools down. I've left cubes for weeks with no problem. I think if you had more than a few inches of dead space it might be an issue, but my 15 ltr cubes are full to the brim, and my 17 litre cube has at the most 2'' of dead space. No probs.


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## Guysmiley54

I am having so much trouble getting my cubes to seal properly. I bought two cheapies from bunnings, when they'e cold they seem to tighten up nicely but when they're hot the lid gets tight and then seems to jump the thread. I tried to sand back some excess plastic on the thread of the cube and even used plumbers tape but I couldn't get either of them to seal.

I thought that seeing that a good number of folks on AHB use Willow brand cubes, I would spend a little more and get one. Bunnings only had the blue ones so I picked one up. I am having the exact same problem with this cube as I did with the last two!!

Any tips?


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## raven19

I have been fortunate all my cubes seal well. Have you tried switching the lids around? 

I have never had any of my lids jump the thread.


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## fergi

just wondering , what does hot side aeration taste like, there is a thought that when running your hot boiling wort into the cube that it shouldnt splash, i have done 3 AG beers now and all have run hot into the cube with splashing, i cant detect any funny flavours,so what am i looking for.

cheers fergi


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## fergi

fergi said:


> just wondering , what does hot side aeration taste like, there is a thought that when running your hot boiling wort into the cube that it shouldnt splash, i have done 3 AG beers now and all have run hot into the cube with splashing, i cant detect any funny flavours,so what am i looking for.
> 
> cheers fergi



BURP... i mean bump.
fergi


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## McFeast

fergi said:


> BURP... i mean bump.
> fergi


Agree, good question - Bump!


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## Lodan

"Over time, these compounds will break down, freeing atomic oxygen back into the beer where it can oxidize the alcohols and hop compounds producing off-flavors and aromas like *wet cardboard or sherry-like flavors*."
- How to Brew by John Palmer
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-3.html


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## Bribie G

No use quoting John Palmer because he doesn't agree with no chill anyway and probably fell around laughing when he heard about BIAB

John Palmer = [attachment=46867:dino.jpeg


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## thedragon

This is a brilliant article that I wish I found a year ago. Thanks Cortez.


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## chrismcnally

thedragon said:


> This is a brilliant article that I wish I found a year ago. Thanks Cortez.



I agree. wish I knew about this sooner. Chilling is the worst part of my day because I have to carry a hot 6 gallons in my pot from stove to chilling area. and I would rather end my brew day earlier and not have to clean the chiller.

I need some help finding one of these cubes in the U.S. I find many of them but how do I know if they are capable of holding such hot wort? There are never any specs on temperature range on the websites I check. Is there a type of material I can check for that would indicate it can handle the hot wort?

Here is an example of all the cubes from CampMore

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/SubCat...00226_200368398


also this cube on wheels would be perfect for me so I don't have to carry it (since I brew in my kitchen) but it does not seem to be collapsible. 

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___85258

any advice would be appreciated. Maybe it could be part of the wiki too!


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## manticle

You may be familiar with homebrewtalk.com, a US based HB forum?

There's a thread there which discusses NC. A lot of American brewers on that forum seem to use winpak for NC.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-...brewing-117111/

What you have linked to looks OK - the main thing we concern ourselves with here is whether the cube is made from High Density Polyethylene (HDPE, recycling symbol 2). On the Q and A page, the reliance 7 gallon aqua-tainer is said to be HDPE so looking good. Check out whichever model it is you're interested in using and see if it's HDPE. The 5 gallon Rhino Pak is only Polyethylene.

Checked the thingy on wheels - it only says that it's BPA free so it may not be right. Check with the store or look for the recycle number 2 symbol.


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## chrismcnally

Thanks for the stats and the link. Just what I wanted. I'll be sure to get HDPE and not Polythylene. The link looks promising.



manticle said:


> You may be familiar with homebrewtalk.com, a US based HB forum?
> 
> There's a thread there which discusses NC. A lot of American brewers on that forum seem to use winpak for NC.
> 
> http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-...brewing-117111/
> 
> What you have linked to looks OK - the main thing we concern ourselves with here is whether the cube is made from High Density Polyethylene (HDPE, recycling symbol 2). On the Q and A page, the reliance 7 gallon aqua-tainer is said to be HDPE so looking good. Check out whichever model it is you're interested in using and see if it's HDPE. The 5 gallon Rhino Pak is only Polyethylene.
> 
> Checked the thingy on wheels - it only says that it's BPA free so it may not be right. Check with the store or look for the recycle number 2 symbol.


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## canislupus

Could I ask a question about that?

Last week I did my first BIAB no chill, the pot is made of HDPE material. I put the very hot wort on it with a funnel so it has splashed.

I also found that the plastic from the cube got very soft, maybe very hot wort to put in the cube?

Only just a day after I pitch the yeast but right now it smells really strange, like Sulphuric acid and a little bit like rotted.

I wonder if it could be hot side aeration? What do you think?

Thank you very much and excuse me for my English.


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## Yob

canislupus said:


> Only just a day after I pitch the yeast but right now it smells really strange, like Sulphuric acid and a little bit like rotted.



What Yeast was it? Sounds like a Lager Yeast.


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## canislupus

Yob said:


> What Yeast was it? Sounds like a Lager Yeast.



Hi Yob, it was S-04. Safale English Ale (Fermentis).


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## hellbent

Wouldn't the first 5-10 minutes the hot wort spends sitting in the cube keep the hops working for an extended time and alter the IBU readings?? Like all your hop additions are going to get an extra 5-10 mins cooking. Take for example the 5 min hop addition would be still sitting in a near boiling wort for another 5 or so mins and therefore it would become a 10min+ hop addition creating a higher IBU reading. With the chilled method the wort is at least cooling off very quickly and eradicates that problem. I know that recipes formed in Brewmaster the IBU's alter significantly when you tick no chill and I'm led to believe it is for that very reason. interested to see what you think?


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## [email protected]

hellbent said:


> Wouldn't the first 5-10 minutes the hot wort spends sitting in the cube keep the hops working for an extended time and alter the IBU readings?? Like all your hop additions are going to get an extra 5-10 mins cooking. Take for example the 5 min hop addition would be still sitting in a near boiling wort for another 5 or so mins and therefore it would become a 10min+ hop addition creating a higher IBU reading. With the chilled method the wort is at least cooling off very quickly and eradicates that problem. I know that recipes formed in Brewmaster the IBU's alter significantly when you tick no chill and I'm led to believe it is for that very reason. interested to see what you think?



Have a look through the many many threads where this has been discussed. Basically find out what works for you and your system and adjust your recipes as needed.

http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww....amp;x=0&y=0


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## canislupus

hellbent said:


> Wouldn't the first 5-10 minutes the hot wort spends sitting in the cube keep the hops working for an extended time and alter the IBU readings?? Like all your hop additions are going to get an extra 5-10 mins cooking. Take for example the 5 min hop addition would be still sitting in a near boiling wort for another 5 or so mins and therefore it would become a 10min+ hop addition creating a higher IBU reading. With the chilled method the wort is at least cooling off very quickly and eradicates that problem. I know that recipes formed in Brewmaster the IBU's alter significantly when you tick no chill and I'm led to believe it is for that very reason. interested to see what you think?



Hello Hellbent,

I have taken on consideration the no chill for the hop and I have move my hope schedule 20 minutes late.

In fact for the first couple of day it smells very good hoppy aroma but now

On Saturday I will move to secondary for dry hopping I will taste a little bit.

My hop schedule is like that: 60 minutes move to 40 and 30 to 10

14,00 g Ahtanum [3,91 %] - Boil 60,0 

14,00 g Chinook [12,00 %] - Boil 60,0 

25,00 g Ahtanum [3,91 %] - Boil 30,0 

15,00 g Chinook [12,00 %] - Boil 30,0 

26,00 g Chinook [12,00 %] - Dry Hop 

12,00 g Ahtanum [3,91 %] - Dry Hop 

12,00 g Nelson Sauvin [12,00 %] - Dry Hop 

12,00 g Simcoe [13,50 %] - Dry Hop 10,0 Days Hop 



Also Im thinking now that the wort has only boiled for about 50 minutes, I dont know if that could be a problem. Also some time it has boil with the lid on (I know now that can cause some problems that).

Thank you very much for your help.


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## manticle

Don't boil with the lid on. Sulphur and "rotted" could be DMS which no chill might exarcebate if other factors in your process weren't up to scratch.
Ok to bring to the boil with lid on but once boiling, boil with the lid off and boil for at least 60 minutes with the wort moving constantly from the boil.
HDPE will soften a little with hot wort - that's normal.


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## canislupus

manticle said:


> Don't boil with the lid on. Sulphur and "rotted" could be DMS which no chill might exarcebate if other factors in your process weren't up to scratch.
> Ok to bring to the boil with lid on but once boiling, boil with the lid off and boil for at least 60 minutes with the wort moving constantly from the boil.
> HDPE will soften a little with hot wort - that's normal.



Do you think I could drink it or better throw it away right now?

Ok, on Sunday will try another batch and follow your advices.

Thank you.


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## Maheel

canislupus said:


> Do you think I could drink it or better throw it away right now?



draw a sample off and taste it 

if it tastes and smells like "beer" (warm flat beer in a good way not yesterdays stale beer ) then let it ferment some more


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## manticle

At least ferment it out and see. Some dms may be scrubbed out by co2 during fermentation.


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## canislupus

Thank you guys I will do that and tell you what has happend finally with the beer in a few days.


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## Aydos

I think some people just really want to throw away a batch sometime!


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## canislupus

manticle said:


> At least ferment it out and see. Some dms may be scrubbed out by co2 during fermentation.



Its been 8 days fermenting but it smells really bad, I will throw it away tomorrow morning.

Well, too bad for me, I wont do that mistake any more, I hope. :wacko: 


Thank you for the help.


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## canislupus

aydos said:


> I think some people just really want to throw away a batch sometime!



Yes that's why I have done it, here in Spain just started the "Brew Masters" show from discovery channel and I'm doing like DogFish, always throwing a batch for some reason  .


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## Dowley

Cortez The Killer said:


> This is the discussion topic for article: The No-Chiller Method / Using A Cube
> 
> I wrote this article up yesterday for the wiki about no-chilling. There always seems to be interest in the topic amongst new brewers and there didn't appear to be any article in the wiki covering it. Nor is there a succinct thread about the method.
> 
> Also for some reason a discussion topic was not automatically created. Mods please move this into the Wiki forum - I can't start a thread there myself.
> 
> Cheers


Hi Cortez,

Thanks for the wiki creation. I am a n00b to AG (count at zero currently) but looking to get some skills. I think this could be a good article for me but the link does not seem to work. Can a get the link from somewhere else? 

Dowley


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## Cortez The Killer

There's a copy here http://hyperfox.info/no-chill.htm

Cheers


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## Matty3450

Hi Cortez,

Excellent article. Im very interested in trying the no chill option. With your personal experiance with the method have you found that you have needed to adjust your hop schedule by for example 10-20 mins as discussed on other forums or have you brewed using conventional recipes designed for chiller use?

Thanks

Matt


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## Cortez The Killer

I have for the last couple of years stuck with 60 10 0 minute additions

I tried cube hopping but didn't like the grassiness that it would give

With the flame out addition I'll turn off the power throw the hops in and stir hard and let it sit for 10mins before racking off into a cube

I found the hop presence is more pronounced this way

I don't adjust for bitterness, but while I'm partial to hop forward beer, I can't say I'd regard the potential extra bitterness from no chill significant

Here are some recipes of what I've been brewing lately they'll probably better explain what I am trying to achieve more so than me crapping on

http://hyperfox.info/allgrain01.htm#100

Cheers


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## Matty3450

thanks cortez


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## Dowley

Cortez The Killer said:


> There's a copy here http://hyperfox.info/no-chill.htm
> 
> Cheers


Thanks Cortez. I will give it a good read.

Dowley


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## menoetes

Thanks Cortez for this useful article. I noticed a bunch of people talking about cubing on the forums and wasn't too sure what they meant until reading your wiki.

I like the idea of having a wort or two prepared before brew day. I run two fermenters now and even though I am only extract brewing and mini-mashing at the moment it still takes a lot of time getting two brews down in one day. I can see that just adding a prepared cubed wort to the FV and pitching the yeast would make these special days far easier for me.

My question; can I use this method for extract and mini-mash worts? I have a couple of 10lt cubes laying around, and my worts are rarely bigger than 8lts; could I just pop them into these 10lt cubes and just top up to full volume with water on the brew day?

Everyone else using this method seems to be AG brewers which is why I ask.


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## Bribie G

You would need to top up the cubes to the top, but if you use boiling water then that's out of your "top up" allowance anyway. Personally I wouldn't leave an air space that could have nasties in it.


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## Cortez The Killer

I don't see an issue with the method for extract / mini mash as long as everything going into the cube has been boiled. I do not believe headspace is an issue. I occasionally put 19L batches in 25L cubes. 

A while ago I was using 15L cubes, making higher gravity wort and watering down to 19L. And from memory I was just using tap water to top up in the fermenter. 

Cheers


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## TheWiggman

Has anyone tried chill-cubing? i.e. chilling down to say 50°C to address the bitterness and late hop offsetting which is the major challenge when no-chill cubing and following recipes. 
I _really _like the convenience of having my brew in the cube, mainly so that I can get it to pitching temp accurately in the fridge as well as making sure my yeast is ready.

Main risk I see is infection. Major benefit is as above but also using substantially less water for chilling. If people have done it numerous times without fault then I might give it a whirl. If nobody's tried it... I might give it a whirl.

Please don't suggest I work on getting my hop additions right in the first place - I'm already doing this and isn't the point of the query. Just curious.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

You'd be removing one of the main anti infection benefits of cubing in pastuerisation. Needs to sit above 80C for a certain period. If down to 50C I think it would cool faster than the time required to ensure pastuerisation. There was a chart floating around with the e temps and times. You could maybe chill not quite as cold and find a happy medium to achieve your desired outcome?


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## TheWiggman

That's what I was thinking. I Star San my cube anyway and don't store for any longer than 5 days.
On a brew I did yesterday I measured the temp of the wort prior to hitting the cube and it was 67°C after whirlpooling. No chilling. The ambient air was around 8°C (typical of Orange over winter) so yes it did drop that much. I figured if it's going to have cooled down anyway I could force chill down to 70°C and remove one variable.


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Is an interesting concept. Very keen to hear the results! Be nice to get certainty around late hopping and no chill!


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## Slug

The link to the article doesnt seem to work, can somone point me in the direction of it now?

Cheers


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## Cortez The Killer

No sure where it is on the forum now 

There is a copy of it here http://hyperfox.info/no-chill.htm 

Cheers


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## Slug

Cortez The Killer said:


> No sure where it is on the forum now
> 
> There is a copy of it here http://hyperfox.info/no-chill.htm
> 
> Cheers



Beauty, thanks Cortez!


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## Wobbly1

Does anyone know what happened to the article? Clicking on the link brings up an Error, Page Not Found.


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## Coalminer

*That link does work here is a copy of the text

The No-Chiller Method / Using A Cube
*
You will find a lot of posts on this forum mentioning the "no-chill" method and also the use of a cube. There isn't really any great mystery about the no-chill method and it can be utilised easily, cheaply and with excellent results.

Traditionally there has been a school of thought that suggests; that after boiling wort it must be cooled quickly to promote the formation of cold break and allow for the pitching of yeast ASAP. As a result there are a plethora of weird and wonderful chillers out there to allow you to chill your wort quickly and effectively.

Another school of though has recently gained momentum which promotes the use of cube to effectively "hot-pack" the wort post boiling, thereby allowing it to cool over an extended period of time eg overnight.

I will try and explain, to the best of my ability, what this method involves, possible problems and important points to consider in its use. I'll start at the beginning...

*What is a Cube?*

This is a common question one sees on beer forums. Essentially it is a food grade sealable plastic water container or jerry can made of the same material as a fermenter. A picture is worth a thousand words, so...







They are available in a range of sizes eg 15L, 20L, 25L from camping / hardware stores and typically range from $10 to $15.

Also worth mentioning is that, for example a 20L cube will actually hold 23 odd litres.

*OK I've Got A Cube, Now What?*

Essentially the method involves the following:

- You make your wort as you normally would.
- After flameout and whirlpooling, and with appropriate hosing, drain the still near boiling wort into a plastic cube, trying to avoiding splashing.
- Once you have drained the kettle into the cube, squeeze as much of the air out of the cube as you can and seal it with the lid.
- Put the cube on its side for 10 minutes or so to allow the hot wort to come into contact with handle and lid.
- Leave the hot cube to cool overnight (upright) or however long it takes to arrive at pitching temperatures.
- Pour the contents of the cube into a fermenter, splashing as much as possible to assist in aeration and pitch yeast as you would normally.

That's the crux of it!

*Sanitising*

Cleanliness with this method as with all aspects of brewing is essential.

Before using the cube ensure that it is clean and sanitised. My personal regime sees me storing cubes (when not in use) with a couple of litres of bleach solution in them. I occasionally give the cube a shake when passing to cover the cube walls. On brew day I clean out the bleach solution and give it a shot with idophor to sanitise. I always clean out the cube thoroughly immediately after use. There are many ways to clean the cube - use what works for you in other aspects of your brewing.

The hose used for transferring the hot wort must also be cleaned. Typically I connect the hose to the kettle during the later parts of the boil and recirculate boiling wort through it and the ball valve to flush out any nasties. The end of the hose that goes into the cube gets put into the boiling wort during the boil to sanitise. Again do what works for you to ensure everything is sanitary.

*Storability (Extended Storage)*

Cubes that have been properly packed may be stored for extended periods. Some users have reported good results with cubes being stored for over a year. Personally I have stored cubes for 1 to 2 months without issue.

*Getting The Air Out / Squeezing The Cube*

It is suggested that most if not all of the air in a cube should be expelled when sealing. However occasionally it may be impossible to do so. I have not encountered any ill effects from not expelling all the air. But as a general rule, if I intend to store a cube for over a week I ensure that most of the air has been expelled or use a smaller cube.
* 
Benefits*

No-chilling has a series of benefits including
- minimal outlay (no chiller required to make all grain beer, only a cube)
- minimal time required (the time usually allocated to chill the wort is avoided on brew day)
- minimal water required (ie sanitisation only)
- storability of the wort for extended periods (wort production does not have to coincide with yeast starter preparation)
- ability to make wort in bulk and store for later fermentation
- portability of wort in the cube

*Making Higher Gravity Wort (Dilution at Fermentation Time)*

An option with this method is take wort of a higher gravity eg 17 litres of 1.060 SG wort can be diluted with 3 litres to give 20 litres of 1.051 SG wort. This allows you to use cubes of a smaller capacity and make double batches ie two cubes of wort without having the capacity of doing a full final volume boil.

*Dry Hopping In The Cube (Cube Hopping)*

No-chilling allows hops to be added to the cube before the hot wort is transferred into it. There is some discussion about the possibility of doing away with the normal aroma / late addition and replacing it with cube hopping - effectively allowing more of the hop aroma to be trapped within the cube. I am not aware of any definitive examination of this however but have dry hopped in the cube for extra hoppiness.

*Can I Replace the Cube's Bung With A Tap?*

I have put taps on a couple of my cubes and have not had a problem. They do make it easier when transferring wort to the fermenter. I find it a bit of a challange sometimes, when trying to tip a full cube into a fermenter, to get the wort in without spilling any.

*What If My Cube Starts to Swell?*

You will find that as a cube cools its sides begin to get sucked in (essentially cooled wort is about 4% smaller (volume wise) than hot/boiling wort). This is nothing to be concerned about.

However should the cube begin to swell after it has cooled this may be an indication of an infection. What you do in this scenario is your choice. You can discard the wort or ferment it to see how it turns out.

I have never had a cube swell / be infected in over 20 batches. Some users report the same for 100 plus batches.

*Caveats*

- Ensure the cube and hose are sanitary.
- Do not be tempted to cool the cube prematurely by putting it into a swimming pool or other body of water. Rapidly cooled hot packed wort can give rise to infections as it does not allow for the cube to be exposed to the hot wort for long enough to ensure that any bacteria in the cube is killed.
- Remember to place the cube on its side after packing to expose the handle and cap directly to the hot wort.

*No-Chill Critics*

Some research into the no-chill method will bring up some criticism of the method. Arguments against include
- Beer haziness
- Problems with long term beer stability
- Loss of hop aroma
- Increased bitterness
- Leeching plastic
- DMS production
- And in the extreme the risk of botulism (a deadly anaerobic bacteria)

I have not encountered any of these problems in the beer I have made nor have members of the Illawarra Brewers Union who employ the method almost exclusively.
* 
Other Remarks*

The no-chill method is advantageous to the brewer as it allows him/her to do away with a chiller (which can be expensive and consume water / resources / time). It basically allows the novice brewer to cross over to all grain brewing (the dark side) much more easily. Further other advantages are to be found in storability of bulk wort and being able to control when you ferment the wort.

Before discounting the method give it a go to see if you find any of the benefits to be had in no-chilling exist for your brewing.

Cheers

Cortez The Killer

Here is a picture of a finished cube on its side


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## Wobbly1

Thanks very much for taking the time! Cheers


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