# Bleach as Sanitizer



## nala (2/11/14)

I have used bleach as a sanitizer for years, never had a problem. 
I have mixed...10 mls of bleach and 10mls of white vinegar to 6 litres of water for sanitizing fermenters etc, since I started brewing 8 years ago.
I recently bought my usual home brand bleach from Woolworths and having compared the listed active ingredients from my old bottle to the new bottle I find that Sodium Hydroxide has been reduced from 9 g/ltr to 4 g/ltr. Could someone advise please whether I need to double the dosing from 10 mls / 6 liters to 20 mls/6 litres.
I attach 2 pictures of the bottle labels.


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## Dips Me Lid (2/11/14)

I thought mixing bleach and vinegar created toxic chlorine gas?


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## manticle (2/11/14)

Depends on the order in which they are mixed.


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## welly2 (2/11/14)

manticle said:


> Depends on the order in which they are mixed.


Vinegar first?


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## manticle (2/11/14)

My understanding (PLEASE CHECK BEFORE FOLLOWING - I HAVE NOT USED BLEACH FOR A LONG TIME AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DEADLY GASES) is that you mix bleach and water, then add your vinegar portion.


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## Ducatiboy stu (2/11/14)

That would be logical as your not mixing the vinegar with a more concerntrated bleach if you add it to diluted bleach so the reaction wont be as severe


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## JDW81 (2/11/14)

nala said:


> I have used bleach as a sanitizer for years, never had a problem.
> I have mixed...10 mls of bleach and 10mls of white vinegar to 6 litres of water for sanitizing fermenters etc, since I started brewing 8 years ago.
> I recently bought my usual home brand bleach from Woolworths and having compared the listed active ingredients from my old bottle to the new bottle I find that Sodium Hydroxide has been reduced from 9 g/ltr to 4 g/ltr. Could someone advise please whether I need to double the dosing from 10 mls / 6 liters to 20 mls/6 litres.
> I attach 2 pictures of the bottle labels.


Why not use this as an opportunity to move from bleach to a no-rise sanitising formulation?


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## panzerd18 (2/11/14)

A $20 bottle of Starsan will last you for years.


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## Ducatiboy stu (2/11/14)

Use starsan to sanitise and nappi-san to soak and clean


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## panzerd18 (2/11/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Use starsan to sanitise and nappi-san to soak and clean


Exactly what I do.


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## Mr. No-Tip (2/11/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Use starsan to sanitise and nappi-san to soak and clean


Exactly. Don't waste your time debating the toxic pathway for products that are shit brewery sanitisers. No rinse. No fuss.


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## Chris7 (2/11/14)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> Exactly. Don't waste your time debating the toxic pathway for products that are shit brewery sanitisers. No rinse. No fuss.


Sounds like an infomercial haha. One that I 100% agree with however.


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## Goose (2/11/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Use starsan to sanitise and nappi-san to soak and clean



Except I use PBW instead of Napisan. Dunno why but PBW nails it better than Napisan for me somehow.


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## Yob (2/11/14)

PBW has sodium metasillicate and other bits and pieces as well as a greater concentration of sodium percabonate and a surfactant.. 

Pure percabonate shits all over nappisan and is a tenth of the price


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## indica86 (2/11/14)

S A N I T I S E R.
S, it has a ******* s in it.

S, not z, NOT z.

It's not going to work because you cannot spell in Australian.


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## sp0rk (2/11/14)

Yob said:


> PBW has sodium metasillicate and other bits and pieces as well as a greater concentration of sodium percabonate and a surfactant..
> 
> Pure percabonate shits all over nappisan and is a tenth of the price


If you can get it locally, or else it's expensive to get it shipped to you :/


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## Yob (2/11/14)

Even with a ~$15 courier price on a 25kg bag it's still a massive win, companies like E-go are fantastic and cheap. 

Hmm, I'm starting to run low so might have to organise some more


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## TidalPete (2/11/14)

> If you can get it locally, or else it's expensive to get it shipped to you :/


Not if you split a drum with other local brewers.


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## manticle (2/11/14)

Yob said:


> Even with a ~$15 courier price on a 25kg bag it's still a massive win, companies like E-go are fantastic and cheap.
> Hmm, I'm starting to run low so might have to organise some more


Yes. I need some too. 1 bag cost me about $1 per kg and lasted about 1.5 years and I used indiscriminate amounts to clean everything. Half my washing just used a scoop or so, cat vomit, red wine spills, cleaning benchtops, burnt pots, tiled floors, walls - you name it.


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## Ducatiboy stu (2/11/14)

manticle said:


> Half my washing just used a scoop or so, cat vomit, red wine spills, cleaning benchtops, burnt pots, tiled floors, walls - you name it.


Must have been one hell of a party


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## manticle (2/11/14)

Well it went for 1.5 years so yeah - I rate it.


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## manticle (2/11/14)

Next time I'm going to step up from wine and cats to blow and hookers though.
Aim high I always say.


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## verysupple (2/11/14)

This thread has moved well along since the OP, but I have a serious question.

Bleach works by altering the chemical bonds between atoms. Fine. But it's also a strong base. So wouldn't this render the vinegar useless as it's the acidity that you're relying on when using vinegar?


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## manticle (2/11/14)

I am unsure of the exact chemistry - my understanding is that bleach alone will work due to high pH but acidifying that slightly (still basic) brings it into a better pH range to do the job.


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## MHB (2/11/14)

nala said:


> I have used bleach as a sanitizer for years, never had a problem.
> I have mixed...10 mls of bleach and 10mls of white vinegar to 6 litres of water for sanitizing fermenters etc, since I started brewing 8 years ago.
> I recently bought my usual home brand bleach from Woolworths and having compared the listed active ingredients from my old bottle to the new bottle I find that Sodium Hydroxide has been reduced from 9 g/ltr to 4 g/ltr. Could someone advise please whether I need to double the dosing from 10 mls / 6 liters to 20 mls/6 litres.
> I attach 2 pictures of the bottle labels.


I am sure you mean Sodium Hypochlorite, not caustic soda 
Every time you mix acid (Acetic in this case) with Sodium Hypochlorite you get Chlorine gas evolving, its just that Cl2 is very soluble and the minute amount you are making is dissolved in the 6 L of water, so you aren't choking on clouds of yellow/green war grade gas.
As you suggest if the concentration has gone from 9 to 4g/L you would need a bit over double to get the same effect (9/4 = 2.25 X as much or 22.5mL), the white vinegar is 4% Acetic Acid (as required by Australian food labelling laws) so that will stay the same at 10mL.

Personally I to am a big fan of Sodium Percarbonate (the pure food contact grade stuff) and gave up using anything with Chlorine or Sodium Metabisulphite years ago and am very happy with the newer options, they work and aren't environmentally unfriendly and don't stink.
Mark


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## Blind Dog (2/11/14)

MHB said:


> Personally I to am a big fan of Sodium Percarbonate (the pure food contact grade stuff) and gave up using anything with Chlorine or Sodium Metabisulphite years ago and am very happy with the newer options, they work and aren't environmentally unfriendly and don't stink.
> Mark


Or kill you

Always a big fan of stuff that won't kill me


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/11/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Always a big fan of stuff that won't kill me


Where is the fun in that..?


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## Redracer (3/11/14)

I don't think there is any difference between the two bottles in terms of their sodium hypochlorite content. The first bottle is 4.2% w/vol and the 2nd is 42g/L...which is also 4.2% w/v. The difference is in the sodium hydroxide content hat has more than halved in the 2nd bottle. This NaOH does not change the sanitising effect of the bleach and vinegar solution it will just reduce the shelf life of the product. NaOH is added to the bleach to increase the pH so the sodium hypochlorite doesn't break down as fast. When the pH of the solution dropped (by adding acid/vinegar) the solution breaks down very quickly. 

I've though of using this process myself but just couldn't trust myself not to mix the two directly...just to see what happens.


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## MHB (3/11/14)

He's right, just went and looked at the labels in the OP.
If you want to keep using bleach, just keep doing what you were.
Teach me to assume - just took it as the bleach had been reduced.
M


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## ianh (3/11/14)

Also note that Woolies Homebrand is 42 g/l whilst Coles is only 35 g/l Sodium Hypochlorite.

I use 40 ml Bleach and 40 ml White Vinegar whilst filling my plastic fermenter.


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## Goose (3/11/14)

Yob said:


> PBW has sodium metasillicate and other bits and pieces as well as a greater concentration of sodium percabonate and a surfactant..
> 
> Pure percabonate shits all over nappisan and is a tenth of the price


Right, so you reckon pure sodium percarbonate will do a job as good as PBW weight for weight ? PBW costs a frickin bomb...

And can you use this stuff as dishwasher powder ?

I'm aware that alkalis can be as corrosive as acids on some materials... the other day I left 6 glass bottles filled with PBW solution to soak overnight atop my stainless benchtop next to the sink and when I removed them for rinsing the next day I noticed etching around the base of the bottles... permanent rings in my the stainless steel... I am presuming its the alkaline characteristic percarbonate in the PBW that is responsible. :unsure:


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## mje1980 (3/11/14)

I tried PBW but have gone back to pure sodium per carbonate. Cheaper and better in my experience.


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## Yob (3/11/14)

^^^ wat he said.. I also have 10kg sodium metasillicate, if I need to kick it up a notch, I can mix it up myself


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## Dave70 (3/11/14)

manticle said:


> Yes. I need some too. 1 bag cost me about $1 per kg and lasted about 1.5 years and I used indiscriminate amounts to clean everything. Half my washing just used a scoop or so, cat vomit, red wine spills, cleaning benchtops, burnt pots, tiled floors, walls -* you name it.*


Personal massager?


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## manticle (3/11/14)

Spotless, like new.


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## Goose (3/11/14)

Ok, so the purpose of the metasilicate pls ?

Wiki: "They are used in cements, passive fire protection, textile and lumber processing, refractories, and automobiles".


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