# seized keg king silver pump



## pcqypcqy (18/10/17)

I have one of these, about 1 year old. Has been running noisily for a while, and now it has seized.

The electric motor still hums and will spin the magnets if I disassemble it and give it a push.

I tried to lube it up with some inox and I just scraped through last brew, but now it's seized again.

I'm confident it's just a matter of lubing it up or backing off some screws somewhere. 

I took the plastic cover off the back and removed the very long screws that bolt through and hold the thing together, but I couldn't prise the parts apart (at least I stopped before I did some permanent damage).

Does anyone have experience with having pulled these apart to give them a service?


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## klangers (18/10/17)

Not a good sign. They are non-serviceable.

If you've checked the volute and impeller, then the only other moving parts are the shaft bearings and seal. Since it's been running noisy, I'm almost certain the bearings have gone. Lube won't help now.


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## pcqypcqy (18/10/17)

klangers said:


> Not a good sign. They are non-serviceable.
> 
> If you've checked the volute and impeller, then the only other moving parts are the shaft bearings and seal. Since it's been running noisy, I'm almost certain the bearings have gone. Lube won't help now.



Doesn't run noisy when the impeller etc aren't attached.

And everything is serviceable if you use the right amount of force


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## homebrewnewb (18/10/17)

1 year? i hear a warranty call to kk.


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## pcqypcqy (18/10/17)

homebrewnewb said:


> 1 year? i hear a warranty call to kk.



Yeah, it's an option, but we re-wired it with a longer lead so I'm sure any retailer worth their salt would point to that and say warranty voided.


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## homebrewnewb (18/10/17)

oh, yeah it's voided then. oh well another 70$ for you, good luck on the repair job.


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## Adr_0 (18/10/17)

pcqypcqy said:


> Doesn't run noisy when the impeller etc aren't attached.
> 
> And everything is serviceable if you use the right amount of force


I'm guessing you've completely pulled apart the impeller housing?


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## pcqypcqy (18/10/17)

Adr_0 said:


> I'm guessing you've completely pulled apart the impeller housing?



Impeller housing, yes. Runs reasonably OK and quiet with the impeller housing off, but does need a little push or a few on/offs with the switch to get going.


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## n87 (18/10/17)

Give them a call, they arent on their website, but managed to get a replacement impeller and motor side part (~$15 IIRC).
and splurge for a SS head.

I would say you have something stuck behind the impeller


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## Adr_0 (18/10/17)

pcqypcqy said:


> Impeller housing, yes. Runs reasonably OK and quiet with the impeller housing off, but does need a little push or a few on/offs with the switch to get going.


Have you actually taken the impeller housing completely apart though, impeller out, etc?


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## Adr_0 (18/10/17)

pcqypcqy said:


> Impeller housing, yes. Runs reasonably OK and quiet with the impeller housing off, but does need a little push or a few on/offs with the switch to get going.


Does it need a few starts to get going without the impeller housing screwed on, or you only need to do this with the impeller housing on?


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## pcqypcqy (18/10/17)

Adr_0 said:


> Have you actually taken the impeller housing completely apart though, impeller out, etc?



Yep, fully apart. All I can see is the pump-side magnet. All the black plastic has been removed.

I'll test again tonight how it goes without this one, from memory when I fixed it last it started first time, or just needed an on/off/on to get going. Worked fine for that brew, but seized up again after the brew.

This is my HLT pump, so only deals with water, not wort. Can't say for sure if that has been the case for it's whole life, but certainly has been for the last few months.


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## Adr_0 (18/10/17)

pcqypcqy said:


> Yep, fully apart. All I can see is the pump-side magnet. All the black plastic has been removed.



You will find that there is a vortex breaker on the inlet, there is an impeller, seals and the magnet assembly in this chunk of black plastic. Pull the whole black plastic assembly apart, make sure there is nothing stuck in these pieces, then reassemble. Shit always gets caught between the impeller and vortex breaker.

(nothing in the above refers to the motor - purely the black plastic impeller housing and what's inside this)


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## pcqypcqy (18/10/17)

Adr_0 said:


> You will find that there is a vortex breaker on the inlet, there is an impeller, seals and the magnet assembly in this chunk of black plastic. Pull the whole black plastic assembly apart, make sure there is nothing stuck in these pieces, then reassemble. Shit always gets caught between the impeller and vortex breaker.
> 
> (nothing in the above refers to the motor - purely the black plastic impeller housing and what's inside this)



Ok, cheers for the tip. I generally fully pull these parts off and give them a rinse/wash and dry out between brews, but I'll take a look tonight just in case I've missed it.

When I checked it all last it did feel like it was more how the impeller spins in the plastic housing, rather than the motor side of the pump itself. I even tried a bit of keg lube on the back of the impeller where it sits in it's little housing.


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## Adr_0 (18/10/17)

This is what is inside the housing, and what you need to check:






Not pictured is the housing with the threaded nipples and vortex breaker bar thingy.


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## n87 (18/10/17)

Didnt actually listen or watch it all the way through, but it shows the pulling down of it.
skip straight to 4:10


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## malt junkie (18/10/17)

This happened to mine 2 years back, I striped it back, and with the entire head removed powered it up, it didn't spin so I gave it some manual assistance. (note doing this there is a risk of electrocution) The pump has worked ever since.


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## pcqypcqy (18/10/17)

The head and impeller are all clean and fine.

I pulled it all off and tried turning on again, and the motor hums and I can see the magnetic drive jerk, but then it stalls. When I turn it off and try to spin the wheel, it feels stuck but then gives.



malt junkie said:


> This happened to mine 2 years back, I striped it back, and with the entire head removed powered it up, it didn't spin so I gave it some manual assistance. (note doing this there is a risk of electrocution) The pump has worked ever since.



This is what I've been doing recently.

Tonight I sprayed a bit of dry glide PTFE spray in there, and I also found a hole on the underside of the unit that let's you access the back of the drive in the pump housing.

One tiny squirt of PTFE in there and she was off and racing. No noise or problems accelerating or anything.

I'll report back in a few days to see if it still works.


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## pcqypcqy (19/10/17)

Some photos to show what I'm getting at. 

After leaving it a few hours I went back. It still needs a little help getting started, so I go back to my original question: Pulling the entire housing apart so I can lube the parts that need lubing. 

There are three screws whose heads are within the electrical housing at the back of the pump, and they bolt all the way through the housing and hold the front on. I've pulled these out without stripping them (somehow), but the unit itself seems to be glued/caulked/stuck together. 

I didn't want to force the thing, but may end up doing that if I can't get it to start reliably as she'll be a dud unit anyway.


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## Adr_0 (19/10/17)

You say you rewired it... Did you touch the starting winding at all, where that tape is?

It should have four wires plus earth (two of which are the starter windings, 90° out of phase).


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## pcqypcqy (19/10/17)

Adr_0 said:


> You say you rewired it... Did you touch the starting winding at all, where that tape is?
> 
> It should have four wires plus earth (two of which are the starter windings, 90° out of phase).



We didn't go into the metal pump housing itself, just attached a new lead to the wires that were in that little plastic housing at the back.


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## Adr_0 (19/10/17)

pcqypcqy said:


> We didn't go into the metal pump housing itself, just attached a new lead to the wires that were in that little plastic housing at the back.


Yeah that's the one. If you just went like for like that's ok, I can't remember if there's a capacitor there though. If the capacitor was shot - from overheating during soldering? - or there was a dry connection anywhere on this secondary winding, it would have issues starting. And I don't mean to suggest you've done anything to the physical windings, but any issues with the connections in the plastic housing would do it. 

A mechanical/rubbing issue wouldn't help, but I would think this would present issues during running as well.


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## pcqypcqy (19/10/17)

Adr_0 said:


> Yeah that's the one. If you just went like for like that's ok, I can't remember if there's a capacitor there though. If the capacitor was shot - from overheating during soldering? - or there was a dry connection anywhere on this secondary winding, it would have issues starting. And I don't mean to suggest you've done anything to the physical windings, but any issues with the connections in the plastic housing would do it.
> 
> A mechanical/rubbing issue wouldn't help, but I would think this would present issues during running as well.



There is a capacitor. All connections were done like for like using crimped connectors. Can't remember if there were already crimped connections in there, or if we cut the wires.


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## TheWiggman (19/10/17)

Two things of note -

Stopping and starting a few times can get it going, when it's stuck pushing the magnet gets it going
Lube behind the magnet seemed to fix it
There's a friction issue on a seal or withing the DE bearing. The magnet looks like it's secured to the shaft with a cap screw, so next time it happens undo the cap screw and remove the magnet. Whatever you see behind there will likely give away the issue.


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## pcqypcqy (19/10/17)

TheWiggman said:


> Two things of note -
> 
> Stopping and starting a few times can get it going, when it's stuck pushing the magnet gets it going
> Lube behind the magnet seemed to fix it
> There's a friction issue on a seal or withing the DE bearing. The magnet looks like it's secured to the shaft with a cap screw, so next time it happens undo the cap screw and remove the magnet. Whatever you see behind there will likely give away the issue.



The problem with that screw is no tool of mine will engage it. It's either a very specific allen head, it has been stripped during manufacture (as I haven't even tried yet), or it's a rivet. 

Either way, I can't take it off from this end, which is why I'm trying to get at it from the back end.


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## TheWiggman (19/10/17)

I see. They're largely waterproof so there's a good chance the cap on the back was glued on after the rotor was installed. I wouldn't remove that to see if you can unscrew from that end.
The magnet will need to come off to disassemble the pump and inspect / do anything around the drive end bearing. I've got a nice selection of screw heads at home so I'll check my pump out tonight (hopefully) and let you know if I have any success. If it's riveted then too bad, keep on-a-lubing until she spin no more.


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## pcqypcqy (19/10/17)

TheWiggman said:


> I see. They're largely waterproof so there's a good chance the cap on the back was glued on after the rotor was installed. I wouldn't remove that to see if you can unscrew from that end.
> The magnet will need to come off to disassemble the pump and inspect / do anything around the drive end bearing. I've got a nice selection of screw heads at home so I'll check my pump out tonight (hopefully) and let you know if I have any success. If it's riveted then too bad, keep on-a-lubing until she spin no more.



That plastic cap was pretty rubbish, and never water proof I suspect. We butchered it anyway to re-do the lead, and I periodically inspect and retape it to minimise the water that gets down there.

So not afraid to attack it from that end.


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## Adr_0 (19/10/17)

Hopefully there's not something behind the magnetic sleeve. There could well be if there is friction or sticking when you try to spin the sleeve without power, including in various orientations, pushing in/pulling out, etc.

Oooh, this is exciting! I want to rip my pump apart again and see if I can get the motor assembly out.

Can do you do some checks on the wires? You should have something like the following:






So you should, with a multimeter, be able to verify each side of the capacitor back to the Live and Neutral has resistance/continuity. You should have 4 different resistance measurements when you check each side back to Live then Neutral, and certainly should have continuity for each measurement. If you don't, you have a break in the line somewhere.

You'll have to pull the capacitor out to actually check it, so I'm not sure that it's worth looking at that yet - but you could visually inspect it: make sure it's not bulging/split, no hardened jizz is leaking out and no evidence of burning.


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## Tony121 (19/10/17)

If the pump doesn’t start initially but will run with a flick of the impeller then I would think the capacitor is shot - as I dare say it would be a start capacitor.

Edit: Read most but skimmed some parts so apologies if this has been flagged already.


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## hotmelt (19/10/17)

I think to get the magnet off, look in the hole and rotate the magnet you'll see two grub screws.


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## TheWiggman (19/10/17)

Bang on ^^^^ 2.5mm Allen key required. 
To separate the motor the screws come from the back, so if you did want to pull it apart you'll need to take the cover off. Tony's probably on the money though it is suspicious that applying lube has allowed it to run fine ever since. Maybe a coincidence.
PS: cheers for the motivation because the piece of chux cloth I just found wrapped around the impeller journal might explain some flow issues I've been having.


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## dblunn (19/10/17)

Mate, sounds like the start winding could be rooted. Single phase motors don't produce any torque when they are not spinning, hence the start windings to simulate a poly phase motor to get it turning. Have you checked the continuity of the start winding?
Regards, Dave


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## pcqypcqy (19/10/17)

Definitely something sticking in there. I checked my other pump and it freely spins when switched off, whereas this one takes a bit of force to break the friction. I've noticed there should be a rubber cap for the hole on the bottom, and the sticky pump is missing this. Maybe I got some wort in there at some stage.

I'm running with this for now over the wiring and capacitor because of how it feels when I turn the wheel. Crunchy almost. 

I saw those grub screws this arvo, but was not sure what to use in them. Just got them out with the 2.5mm Allen key as suggested. I was able to slid the magnet drive a bit but not remove it. I sprayed some PTFE in the holes left by the grub screws and that's already made it a lot smoother. Still not starting first time every time though.


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## TheWiggman (19/10/17)

If it's almost crunchy then 99% sure it's a bearing. If you completely remove the grub screws the magnet should come off with a bit of force. Undo the screws at the back and the housing will separate, allowing you to slide the rotor out. There'll be tiny bearings on it that should have a number written on them, use your web skills to find some new ones. If you're lucky a bearing store might be able to supply some. But I were you I think I would be looking for a new pump.


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## Adr_0 (19/10/17)

TheWiggman said:


> If it's almost crunchy then 99% sure it's a bearing. If you completely remove the grub screws the magnet should come off with a bit of force. Undo the screws at the back and the housing will separate, allowing you to slide the rotor out. There'll be tiny bearings on it that should have a number written on them, use your web skills to find some new ones. If you're lucky a bearing store might be able to supply some. But I were you I think I would be looking for a new pump.


Do the bearings go in these things? Is it just one of those probability things that 1 pump in xx won't have enough grease and will run dry?

Crunchy could be Coco pops too. Or cockroaches. Could be raspy rather than crunchy.


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## pcqypcqy (20/10/17)

Two options before a new pump:

1. fix this ******* thing, which is turning into a fun exercise and might end up being a good sticky on this forum for anyone else who wants to play with it.
2. add a second tier to my brew stand and stick with the one pump.

I'm able to slide it out about 5mm, then it's catching on something. I haven't had a real chance to apply force to it yet, so will try that over the weekend. But I note that it already spins a lot more freely when it has slid out a little bit.


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## Adr_0 (20/10/17)

pcqypcqy said:


> Two options before a new pump:
> 
> 2. add a second tier to my brew stand and stick with the one pump.



  don't do it! God has blessed mankind with the ability to convey fluid by plugging a black hose into a wall socket, so why not use it?


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## pcqypcqy (20/10/17)

it is option 2. Option 1 is to use tools and do manly things and fix/break the pump first.


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## TheWiggman (20/10/17)

Bearing failure analysis, let me just grab my mansplaining hat, jodhpurs and cane...
Causes of bearings going out like this could be for many reasons, but for a low cost Chinese item like this I'd wager they probably use cheap bearings that will have a higher failure rate than better ones. Which is pretty damn obvious I suppose. It's likely a bearing defect at manufacture that has developed to the point it won't spin properly. Contamination or improper machining are the most likely causes, as a small piece of plastic or similar falling into the bearing during assembly (these are hand assembled) causing some sort of plastic deformation of the elements or races will lead to gradual decline and eventual failure. Could be a machining issue on the cage, accidentally forgetting to grease it during manufacture, excessive preload on assembly, mishandling, and various other boring reasons. At the end of the day almost all manufacturers have an expected product failure rate and I would say this is no different. If it's the bearing.

That said this is the first issue I've heard with a Kaixin/KK pump, they've been remarkably reliable for their price and performance.


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## malt junkie (20/10/17)

You missed option 3.... Start a BB or have someone else start one!


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## Adr_0 (20/10/17)

TheWiggman said:


> Bearing failure analysis, let me just grab my mansplaining hat, jodhpurs and cane...
> Causes of bearings going out like this could be for many reasons, but for a low cost Chinese item like this I'd wager they probably use cheap bearings that will have a higher failure rate than better ones. Which is pretty damn obvious I suppose. It's likely a bearing defect at manufacture that has developed to the point it won't spin properly. Contamination or improper machining are the most likely causes, as a small piece of plastic or similar falling into the bearing during assembly (these are hand assembled) causing some sort of plastic deformation of the elements or races will lead to gradual decline and eventual failure. Could be a machining issue on the cage, accidentally forgetting to grease it during manufacture, excessive preload on assembly, mishandling, and various other boring reasons. At the end of the day almost all manufacturers have an expected product failure rate and I would say this is no different. If it's the bearing.
> 
> That said this is the first issue I've heard with a Kaixin/KK pump, they've been remarkably reliable for their price and performance.


Shouldn't we see more 'energy' when it's running though, i.e. more crunching, vibration, when it's up to speed? Hence my pretty poor query about whether it's more of a rasping.

I'm also surprised that something behind the magnetic sleeve - which is directly coupled to the shaft - has such an impact on it. Bear with me here... but if the secondary winding and capacitor are A-OK, it should have enough starting torque to overcome this. Issues seem to come up when the impeller has something in it - and there's no direct coupling of the impeller to the shaft/sleeve, it's through magnetic inductance/grabbiness, so it's more likely to catch and not be able to start.

But he's reported crunchiness/raspiness when the sleeve is rotated, so yes there is likely something behind the magnetic sleeve. Hence the suggestion of cockroaches... but since the magnetic sleeve is directly coupled to the shaft, I thought there'd be enough torque to overcome this. *shrugs* I guess not?


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## pcqypcqy (20/10/17)

OK, persuaded the magnetic drive off over lunch with a pair of multi grips. Probably did the magnets no favours. Pictures attached for reference if anyone else is playing along at home.

Interestingly, the shaft still struggles to get going now, even with no weight on it.

So we're going to have to attack it from the other end now.


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## TheWiggman (20/10/17)

Could be many things Adr_0. I haven't read that issues occur when the impeller's in, note pcqypcqy said he had to physically push the magnet to get it going hence the volute was off. 'Sticktion' they call it (a word I hate) at the place I currently work, which is their layman's term for high static friction which comes unstuck with enough force. 
As you're no doubt aware depending on how a bearing wants to go sometimes they give you 2 mins warning and BOOM seized, other times they'll grumble for months then look reasonable when they're pulled apart. All depends on what's physically occurring in the bearing. 
There looks to be a lot of foreign shit behind the magnet there pcqypcqy so my money's still on the bearing. I don't know how that all got in there. Interesting to see it pulled apart though.


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## Adr_0 (20/10/17)

I have heard that term a lot, and thought it referred to 'sticking and friction', primarily with control valves - eg rough movement, sticking, holdup/overshoot. I'm pretty sure that's why they invented C4 - seems like a less painful way to deal with that stuff.

FFT analysis gives me a semi. I have seen many great examples, but two stuck out: finding an issue in a lube pump on a turbine, planning the shut down and replacement, coming back up again - roughly $10k including labour; the second was on a drive end bearing on a turbine, the CM guys flagged it, a few people in power on the project thought it would be alright, then it lunched itself a couple of days later costing about $30mil in new turbine, labour, production, re-mapping... 

So moral of the story pcqypcqy - replace it so that it doesn't cost you $30mil.


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## pcqypcqy (20/10/17)

I can't see the damage bill racking up to quite that amount.

But maybe as far as $300 to go up to a march pump or similar. Or a hobby mig welder to teach myself how to weld and build myself a 2 tier brew stand


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## pcqypcqy (22/10/17)

Righto, with the magnetic drive off the front, I took the back end off and sliced through the sticker. The front portion came straight out.

Detailed photos attached.

The drive shaft spins quite freely in its bearing, so I think the bearing itself is actually fine.

Looking at the back end of the drive shaft that sits right at the back of the pump, there's a heap of shit and rust here. I believe this is the culprit, and must have occurred when some wort got in the missing plug hole on the bottom of the housing. I mount my pumps vertically, so anything that got into the drive shaft would end up right at the back.

I'm going to clean this up a bit, re coat it with some PTFE and see what happens.


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## pcqypcqy (22/10/17)

And this appears to have worked. Been testing the last hour or so, flicking on off, running it for a while then doing it again, leaving it a while then doing it again. Has started fine each time.

One tip if doing this yourself, ensure when you remount the magnetic drive on the drive shaft, you push it so that the end of the drive shaft is flush with the base of the magnetic drive. Otherwise it won't sit at the right depth relative to the black plastic parts, and you'll just get a heap of friction in there. Once I worked that out I was off and racing.


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## barls (22/10/17)




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## pcqypcqy (22/10/17)

barls said:


>



Should dedicate that meme to @klangers who said these units aren't serviceable 

(just kidding mate, I know most people aren't as hell bent as I am at pulling things apart and putting them back together).


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## TheWiggman (23/10/17)

Did you get the bearing number after all that effort?


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## pcqypcqy (23/10/17)

I did not. It needs another pull apart and a proper grease (ptfe isn't working), so I'll try to take some more photos.


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## pcqypcqy (9/11/17)

This came good and lasted for a brew. Seized again right at the end of the sparge, so was quite lucky.

I will pull apart and apply some proper grease and see if that fixes it.


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## pcqypcqy (9/11/17)

So the saga continues. I discovered a new piece that can be removed, which is the rear part of the housing.

When I took a look inside, it's rusted to all hell, so I really must have dribbled something good in there on the first use. Surprised it didn't short to be honest.

Anyway, tried cleaning it all with contact cleaner and greasing it, but not having a great deal of luck. It seems now that in all my attempts to pull it apart, I may have knocked the shaft off centre, and now I'm getting contact between the shaft magnets and the motor mangnets.

I'm also finding I can't get the magnetic drive off the shaft again very easily either (was very easy the first time). So as a result I wasn't able to site the bearing for those that asked.

Looks like I'm building a quick timber stand and turning it into a 2 tier system for a while.

Does anyone have advice on dealing with the capacitor? I'm reluctant to do too much more in case it shorts on me. It's a 1 micro Farad capacity, at 240v I assume. Not sure if that's an amount of power I should be worried about or not.


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## mofox1 (9/11/17)

At this point it's okay to give up. ;-)

Edit: I do love the effort that has been put into this. Exactly the sort of thing I would do, know it's not worth it, and yet occasionally pull off a MacGyver and feel ridiculously accomplished.


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## pcqypcqy (10/11/17)

mofox1 said:


> At this point it's okay to give up. ;-)
> 
> Edit: I do love the effort that has been put into this. Exactly the sort of thing I would do, know it's not worth it, and yet occasionally pull off a MacGyver and feel ridiculously accomplished.



Like a dog with a bone, I'll keep gnawing at it until I break it or fix it. I'm learning in the process as well, so it's enjoyable (until that capacitor zaps me probably).


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## malt junkie (10/11/17)

Were you able to get to the barring? If you do let us know how you get on for a replacement.


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## pcqypcqy (10/11/17)

malt junkie said:


> Were you able to get to the barring? If you do let us know how you get on for a replacement.



Not yet, but the bearing is fine. Once I separate out the rolling parts from the housing, it spins very freely.

I'll try to get a happy snap of it if I ever get in there.


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## pcqypcqy (6/1/18)

TheWiggman said:


> Did you get the bearing number after all that effort?



Since the earlier posts, ivd been using a two tier stand and getting away with just the one pump. But last brew it starting seizing as well, so here we are again.

Managed to get a close look at the bearings, the brand is C&U, and the number is 626Z (or Z929).

Now I have both pumps apart, it seems the bottom bearing is crunchy on one of the shafts, but on the other it's the top bearing.

Does anyone know how to take the bearings off the shaft, and if it's easy enough to get replacements (or swap them over so I can have one shaft with 2 good bearings).

The root cause of this seems to be that the housing isn't properly waterproof, and the occasional dribble of wort gets in and the problems start from there. 

I mount mine vertically below by vessels so that they self prime. Not sure why this has happened to both of mine and not anyone else, will need to work that one out.


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## TheWiggman (6/1/18)

It'll be a Z929, bearings always have the letter as a prefix. A quick search on Alibaba yeilds price <$1 each. Try CBC, SKF or any bearing supplier and they may either have them or can get them in stock. 
The old ones will be a clearance fit on the shaft and with some force will slide off. If you know someone with a bearing puller it'll make the job a lot easier. I recommend measuring how far on from the end of the shaft they both are in case there's no shoulder on the shaft to locate the bearing. 
When to fitting the new ones make sure you don't just bash it on with a hammer as this can damage the races, slide it on physically or use a nail punch on the inner ring carefully on each side (or ideally, a bit of tube).


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## earle (6/1/18)

Two seized pumps for the one brewer. I think the cause is obvious? 

Ha ha, shit on two forums is twice the fun.


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## pcqypcqy (7/1/18)

Confirming that the bearing number is 626-Z: http://www.skf.com/group/products/b...ve-ball-bearings/index.html?designation=626-Z

On bearing sits flush on the end of the shaft (sits at the back of the pump), and the other bearing has a change in shaft diameter that it sits against, so they're easily relocatable.

I've ordered some replacements from ebay.

Some photos showing the dims and the insides attached for reference, the grease has gone to sh1t quite badly.


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