# First crack at a Duvel clone



## Milk-lizard84 (15/4/14)

Howdy all,
I'm wanting to have a crack at a Duvel clone. I got this recipe from a link someone put up on here. It's from the candisyrup.com website.
I plan on making my own candi syrup as I aquired a 20kg box of white sugar from a guy at work.
Just curious to know when to add the candi syrup. Is it during the boil or throughout fermentation?
Any help would be awesome. I have attached a pic of the recipe if that helps.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (15/4/14)

Both would work, usually if its a really big beer add some in the boil and then during the ferment.
Nev


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## angus_grant (15/4/14)

When I was talking to Anthony from CB about my tripel, he advised me to add the candi-sugar 3 or 4 days into the ferment just so the yeast has to munch on the more complex sugars in the wort before being lazy bastards and munching on the simple sugars in the syrup.


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## manticle (15/4/14)

Firstly I don't think you need to make candi sugar for pale belgians. Moortgaat use dextrose as far as I know. My duvel clone/homage does similarly. Dark Belgiansd are a different story.

Secondly I add large amounts of sugar in stages. If adding 800-1000g to belgian golden strong (got one cold conditioning at the moment), I do 200 to boil and then the remaining amount in 200g lots to the fermenter as primary fermentation is winding down. Add each a few days apart.

My experience of adding too much too quickly is that you can really push the hotter alcohols and get a winey character. Slow and gentle feeding bumps up the abv while retaining a smooth character.


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## mr_wibble (15/4/14)

What are you using for "Soft Sugar" ?

The internet says it's a grouping-name for brown-sugar like sugars, and includes both light & dark brown sugar.


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## Milk-lizard84 (15/4/14)

Thanks for the quick response everyone. I'm not sure what I was going to use for the soft sugar. I did find a duvel clone on beersmith that just uses beet/cane sugar. Maybe this may be a better option to try first. 
I still would like to have a crack at making the syrup though.


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## Milk-lizard84 (15/4/14)

The recipe from Beersmith


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## manticle (15/4/14)

Making syrup is fun although I've never managed to get my darks anything near the commercial syrups.
Would love to know the secret.
Dex is the best option for this beer.

Never heard of preminant.
As far as I know duvel is saaz and styrians and slightly different malt: sugar ratio.


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## Milk-lizard84 (15/4/14)

Thanks for the advice manticle. Yeah that was just the recipe I found. Just wanted a rough guide I guess.
I didnt know what the preminant one was either. I plan on using Saaz and Styrians.
Why would the dex be more beneficial?


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## Mardoo (15/4/14)

I'm getting some of that soft sugar mentioned in the first recipe soon. I'll try to remember to post with impressions. I have no idea how it could be that different but was curious.


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## manticle (15/4/14)

Just because yeast has to produce an enzyme (invertase) to split the sucrose molecules before use. Dextrose/ glucose doesn't require splitting. Candi sugar should be split/inverted by the heat used in manufacture.
I'll link my recipe later - similar and based on stats outlined in brew like a monk.


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## Jaded and Bitter (15/4/14)

Brew like a monk P87

OG: 1.069
ABV: 8.4%
ADA: 93%
IBU: 30
Malts: Blend of Pilsener varieties
Adjuncts: Dextrose ~17% of fermentables
Hops: Styrian Goldings and Saaz
Yeast: Duvel
Fermentation: Pitched at 16-18, raiss to 26-29, 120 hours
Secondary: Cooled to -3, held below 0 for three weeks


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## manticle (15/4/14)

Here's mine: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/1298-duvel-homage-belgian-golden-strong/

I now just use Dingeman's pilsner rather than 3 types. My fermentation schedule is similar - start low, allow to rise to mid 20s then cold condition for a few weeks.


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## Milk-lizard84 (15/4/14)

Champion. Thanks manticle
Greatly appreciated. I have never done a decoction mash
Would a single infusion with a mashout suffice?


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## manticle (15/4/14)

You can do it with single infusion but the result will be different.

Decoctions are only hard in the mind when you haven't done one. In reality - piss easy.

Even a single infusion with decoction to mash out would be good.


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## Milk-lizard84 (15/4/14)

I biab if that helps. So basically I could follow the steps in your recipe but just keep stirring the mash while heat is being applied to reach each mash step? Sorry for the endless questions.


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## Mr. No-Tip (15/4/14)

I agree on adding during ferment. I got lazy this year and got burnt. No hot alcohols, but a very slow fermentation after most of the yeast needed a post junk food nap.


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## manticle (15/4/14)

Milk-lizard84 said:


> I biab if that helps. So basically I could follow the steps in your recipe but just keep stirring the mash while heat is being applied to reach each mash step? Sorry for the endless questions.


Don't apologise.

The steps and the decoctions serve different functions. Without either, you can still make lovely beer and the fermentation and yeast handling is at least as important.
Don't stress - if single infusion is easiest, make it that way. If it's close to what you want but lacking something, brew it again but try stepping and/or decoction.


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## Jaded and Bitter (15/4/14)

yeah stepping or decoction is just a bit more work but I've allways found better results - even if I dont get the step temps spot on.

Duvel us a step mash


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## mje1980 (16/4/14)

I do step mashing with a pot on the stove and a bucket. It's pretty easy when you've done one or two. Basically mash in at your low temp (62 for me for most), then when it's time to step up, fill a bucket with boiling water ( I weigh how much water goes in the bucket to keep track of how much water is in the mash )from the stove pot ( 8 litre pot is fine for one step), and add to the mash. Check temp and adjust from there, though you'll get used to how much and be able to get pretty close most beers. 

Once you've done 2 or 3, you'll work out roughly how much boiling water you'll need for each step, and once you've got it reasonably down pat, 3 mash temp rests is possible. I now do a low 60's, then low 70's very regularly. And if I want to add a mid 50's protein rest, it's no big deal, so 3 rests in total.


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## joshuahardie (16/4/14)

I am also in the no candi sugar camp.
my recipe is is 80 pils 20% table sugar

you won't make a great clone without the duvel yeast strain, which is WY1388

in practice I dumped all the sugar in the boil and got a very poor fermentation.

Next time I will feed the beer with at least half of the sugar when fermentation is below 1020

Now that I check my notes the fermentation profile was start at 18 degrees for 4 days and allow to rise slowly over a week to 28 degrees. I think this was too agressive and the beer was far too hot. Mybe next time I would not go over 25.


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## mr_wibble (16/4/14)

I was talking to MHB the other day, and he said (please correct any miss-quotes MHB) that belgian candi sugar is primarily made from sugarbeet sugar and not cane sugar. This effects the flavour, particularly with dark beers. 

I know they're both mainly sucrose, but I guess subtle differences in ingredients make for subtle differences in flavour.


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## Mardoo (16/4/14)

Yep, cane sugar and beet sugar have slightly different flavors when caramelized as with candi syrup. The cane sugar is a much "cleaner" flavor, valued by pastry chefs but perhaps not so much by brewers. This is from my years as a pastry chef.


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## Milk-lizard84 (16/4/14)

Thanks for all the info guys. I have the next few days off work so I plan on giving the decoction method a crack.
After watching some you tube vids it doesn't look super difficult. Appreciate all the helpful replies.


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## Jaded and Bitter (16/4/14)

Top stuff - decoction rules :super:


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## humulus (17/4/14)

Ive brewed Mants Duvel Clone absolute cracker of a beer!


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## Milk-lizard84 (17/4/14)

Ill make sure I post my results from the brew day. Either miserable failure or a joyous success haha.


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## Milk-lizard84 (18/4/14)

One question I do have just in regards to water volumes.
When doing single infusion mashes when I brew I usually start with 40l.
I no chill so I end up with about 22ish liters in my cube. 
Just wondering when I perform a step mash with a decoction will my initial water volumes have to be different or do I just carry on as normal?


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## mje1980 (18/4/14)

You might have to mash in a bit thicker than normal so you don't end up at total mash volume and still need to do a step. Just keep track of how much water is going into the mash tun and make sure you don't add more than you need. It's a little tricky but do able.


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## manticle (18/4/14)

You can manipulate strike water calculators to give you an indication of how much to add.

It depends though - for infusion mashing you want to start with less but for decoction mashing you can remain the same. Add decoction in slowly until temp is reached and reserve any remainder. Have some hot and cold water on hand to adjust if needed.

Step mashing is made easy for me using an OTS immersion element but I've done it with infusions and decoctions before too.


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## Milk-lizard84 (18/4/14)

Finished with my brew day. Managed to cube 21L at an og of 1.064. Assuming I did it correctly step mashing with a single decoction wasn't too hard. Thanks to everyone who gave some advice. Greatly appreciated.


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## Milk-lizard84 (9/6/14)

Hey guys, about to start fermenting this bad boy in about a week. Just wondering when adding the extra dextrose during fermentation does this affect the og or the fg?
Also when adding the extra dextrose is it better to add it as a water solution or just as is?


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## manticle (9/6/14)

Water solution, boiled. It affects neither og, nor fg, all things being equal; however to calculate its effect on gravity and abv, drop it into software/spreadsheet as if you had added it all at the beginning (so using og vs fg to calculate abv as per normal).

Think of it as affecting specific gravity rather than original or final.


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## bradmcm (9/6/14)

It affects both the FG and what would have been the OG,
with the extra dextrose I would dissolve it in boiling water from the kettle (in something that can take the boiling water ;-) ) and pour it straight into the fermenter. No real harm if you add it as sugar crystals, it will dissolve anyway but I like to sterilize!


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## Milk-lizard84 (15/7/14)

So finally after a move and settling in to my new place I have finally started to ferment this batch. Made up a dextrose solution to add gradually to this as ferment dies down. Second time using a liquid yeast so hopefully all goes well. Actually drinking a duval as I type in hope that it tastes something like this. Thanks again for all the help through out.


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## manticle (7/9/14)

Interested to hear how it ends up.


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## poggor (7/9/14)

I made a Duvel clone a few weeks back. Such a cracking beer (the real thing i mean!- no idea about my beer yet) 

My recipe was : 

Pilsner 80%
Carapils 3%
Dex 17%

Goldings and Saaz

OG 1.082
FG 1.012
ABV 9.4%
SRM 4.1
IBU 30

I did a single temp mash (68c) with mashout at 77c (mashed for 90 mins, efficiency 70%)
On bottling day it tasted great and the colour was very nice and pale golden. ...We'll see....
Since I'm George.... it GeoVel


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## Milk-lizard84 (7/9/14)

So after a bloody long time I finally get to taste my first crack at a Duval clone. It's easily the clearest beer I've ever made. Maybe thanks to 3 weeks at 3 degrees cold crashing. Been in the bottle just under a month and it has carbed up great. Pours with a nice creamy white head and has a nice lacing. Taste wise still seems a bit fresh but I am enjoying it. Will have to try it side by side with the original and see how it stacks up. Glad I went to all the trouble to try something different method wise when brewing this one. Thanks again to everyone that helped with great comments.
Cheers


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## Adr_0 (10/9/14)

Wow, awesome thread and good result. 

The head brewer from Matilda Bay (Scott something?) said the Belgians treat their beer very gently (no splashing around) which allows them to keep good head despite the alcohol, and good shelf life . Although he didn't say it, I understand lagering will help too. 

I guess the key with head is which proteins are still in the beer when it is served. Splashing around allows the "right ones" to come out of suspension (which then drift away somewhere/sink /break down?) while lagering lets the less good ones drop out of suspension. 

Similarly, my understanding is that the 55-59 range is better for head retention than the 50-55 range. 

Any comments or science on this?


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## syl (10/9/14)

Haven't seen any science re:55-59 being better than 51-55 (normal protein rest)


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## Adr_0 (10/9/14)

I should qualify that I meant "better" for under-modified malts. Slightly important qualification. I read on the back of a ciggie pack that under-modified malts don't like the peptidase so much (45-55). Although now that I think about it, I thought lagering dropped out peptides... And peptidase would chew peptides... 

So which are "not fully modified"? I would say BB is definitely not in this category, but which Weyermann malts and what about Dingemann?


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## manticle (10/9/14)

Weyerman is pretty well modified as far as I know*. I'd guess they all are, including dingemans** - I use their pilsner a fair bit and don't notice any major differences I could attribute to difference in modification.

Someone like Wessmith could give you more pertinent info.

*Possible exception being the Wey FM boh pils - just a faint thing in the back of my memory but don't quote me.

** Quick google search suggests Dingemans is well modified, suitable for single infusion. I'm pretty sure almost all of the malts available to us in AU are likewise.


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## Adr_0 (10/9/14)

It's funny you mention that. Reading through your rrecipe and posts and seeing you wanted some complexity, I thought maybe you should try 50% Dingemann and 50% floor malted Boh pils.

I used 2/3 FM BP and 1/3 Vienna in a pils with a touch of acidulated and a tiny bit of CaSO4. The Malt profile was delicious.


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## Adr_0 (10/9/14)

I just took a look at the www.candisyrup.com site and although they soar to use Belgian pils malt in all their recipes (Dingemann?) they do a protein rest on a lot of them - at 50-51°C. If the Dingemann malt is well modified, this contradicts what I have read. 

Unfortunately, it turns out what I have read was in BYO, so about as much authority as the Courier Mail. 

And those pictures on the website look very tasty...

So I still don't know. I do my protein rests at 56-57°C (just wheats and lagers) and they have been great. I pretty much exclusively use Weyermann but generally the standard pils and wheat. Maybe I should try 55 or 50?

And what about the splashing around?


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## syl (10/9/14)

I do 52-55 most of the time! Haven't tried a higher one.


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## manticle (10/9/14)

I do short protein rests too adr0 but it's not because it's required (in undermodified malts you need to step mash) but because I like the results. 55 is usual for me although I'm happy with anything above 52 and it's only ever 5-10 minutes long.


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