# Reducing Oxidation while Bottling



## carrobrew (19/9/20)

Anyone have any good tips, methods or equipment for reducing oxidation from bottling process.

I currently use the PET bottles and have been using the carb drops coz I had some left over still. I then squeeze the air our of the headspace and put in the fermenter fridge with the inkbird probe on the side of one bottle to carb up at around 19-20c.

I currently bottle straight from primary after cold crashing for a few days using one of those bottle wands with the blue tip. This issue I have is sometimes I hit the middle of bottom of the bottle or hit the top of a carb drop and I think that causes some splashing/nucleation when filling the bottles (I can hear it in some bottles).

Would love to jump to kegging but no cash at the moment. :'(

I do have a second Fermenter which I could use to bulk prime. What do you recommend? Are the blue tip fillers ok or is there a better option? I have 5m of new silicon hosing I can utilise/cut up if needed.

I want to make sure I don't oxidise this next batch at all. Is an IPA with plenty of late boil additions, whirlpool additions and a hefty dry hop so I want to make sure I retain all that flavour. Is tasting amazing in primary as of my last hydro reading on Monday when I dry hopped. Is crashing now and hopefully bottling tomorrow (fridge takes a while to get to 3c). Either all in PET or a mix of PET and glass flip tops.

What are your bottling methods?


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## kadmium (19/9/20)

Not much further you can do other than fermenting in a pressure fermenter (don't have to pressure ferment) about $60 and then use a counter pressure bottle filler to bottle. Don't have to carb in the fermenter, you could still use bulk priming followed by using a beer gun which allows you to first purge a bottle with CO2 and then fill. 

The advantage is, you would have a co2 tank, regulator, and pressure capable fermenter which are useful for when or if you do go into kegging. 

I know @wide eyed and legless bottles from pressure fermenters he had modified, hopefully he can help further.


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## carrobrew (19/9/20)

kadmium said:


> Not much further you can do other than fermenting in a pressure fermenter (don't have to pressure ferment) about $60 and then use a counter pressure bottle filler to bottle. Don't have to carb in the fermenter, you could still use bulk priming followed by using a beer gun which allows you to first purge a bottle with CO2 and then fill.
> 
> The advantage is, you would have a co2 tank, regulator, and pressure capable fermenter which are useful for when or if you do go into kegging.
> 
> I know @wide eyed and legless bottles from pressure fermenters he had modified, hopefully he can help further.


Fair enough.

Would love to pressure ferment and keg but no cash for CO2 or another fermenter.

Good to know my method is ok.

Just gotta be careful with where the filler hits the bottom of the bottle I suppose.

Really enjoying improving my process bit by bit. The missus asked if I was done buying homebrew gear the other day, I just laughed.


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## kadmium (19/9/20)

carrobrew said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Would love to pressure ferment and keg but no cash for CO2 or another fermenter.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I brewed an awesome Galaxy SMaSH and bottled. By time time it was carbed, I had 2 weeks before it started to oxidise. 

I would say NEIPA is the most prone to oxidation, and Hazy IPAs etc too. 

It might be one of those things you spend time perfecting, or change course and embrace what bottling can do that kegging cannot. 

Quads, Russian Imperial Stouts, Heffeweizens, Belgian Wits are all beers that don't traditionally keg as good as they bottle. 

Nothing like a yeasty, clove amd banana bomb hefeweizen on a summer day. Conversely, ask @cloudsurfer how great a RIS or Quad 12 months in the bottle is, on a cold winter day. 

Heaps of other beers do well bottled too, like ESBs, Brown Alea, Stouts really anything that doesn't have a metric **** tonne of hops in it.


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## philrob (19/9/20)

I've been brewing for 14 years, and have only ever bottled. I only use Coopers longnecks.
The blue tipped bottling wand is all I use.
I don't use the carb drops, but use dextrose for my priming.
All my brews have a little froth as the bottle fills, but I believe that is just CO2 coming out of the beer as it fills the bottle. I fill mine level to expel the froth, then cap them all at the end when they are all filled.
I've never had a problem with oxidation, not even with heavily hopped beers like a IIPA, although they get consumed rather quickly, as do Hefeweizens.
Darker beers are often consumed over many months, with no problems.
Really, if you squeeze your PET bottles while capping them, where does the oxygen come from? I wouldn't go looking for a solution to a problem I don't believe you have.


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## butisitart (19/9/20)

i read somewhere, back in the day, can't remember where, but, as a bulk priming bottler with the plastic wand, 
if you fill to the top of the neck, then the amount of normal air left in the bottle by the displacement of the wand gets the oxygen pretty much consumed in the carbonation process anyway. 
again, never oxidation issues, even on bottles 1-2 years old.
if you think about wine, it only oxidises if there is some sort of leak in the cork and occurs over extended time. undamaged bottle caps and swing tops are pretty airtight.


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## mje1980 (19/9/20)

I have never noticed oxidation in my bottled beers and I angle the bottle to the fermenter tap ( standard ) and slowly fill. I leave most bottled beers for weeks, and saison I don’t touch for months ( try to anyway ) and don’t notice any oxidation.


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## carrobrew (19/9/20)

philrob said:


> I've been brewing for 14 years, and have only ever bottled. I only use Coopers longnecks.
> The blue tipped bottling wand is all I use.
> I don't use the carb drops, but use dextrose for my priming.
> All my brews have a little froth as the bottle fills, but I believe that is just CO2 coming out of the beer as it fills the bottle. I fill mine level to expel the froth, then cap them all at the end when they are all filled.
> ...


I don't really think I have an issue was just being over cautious about bottling this next brew I suppose.

Good to hear you use the same wand and get great results.

What sparked me thinking about this was my Pale ale which is now 3 weeks in bottle

Tried it 2 weeks after bottling, it was no good. It wasn't fully carbed and I think there was still sugar in solution from priming so it just tasted like malt sweetness + more sweetness and no hop flavour. After waiting the extra week it's a completely different beer. I thought I had oxidised or ruined the whole batch somehow but the beer I sampled a few days ago was very nice. Could hold a head better and be slightly more carbed but that may improve as time goes by.

Had a few more last night and now some are great and some are not as good, not too bad but the hop flavour is a bit subdued. It could just be early days and will develop as they age more. 

I am probably over thinking it. Had my amber ale last night bottled using the same method and it was heaven!!! Very pleased.

The IPA will bottle tomorrow and just want to make sure I maintain all the flavour I can.


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## carrobrew (19/9/20)

kadmium said:


> Yeah, I brewed an awesome Galaxy SMaSH and bottled. By time time it was carbed, I had 2 weeks before it started to oxidise.
> 
> I would say NEIPA is the most prone to oxidation, and Hazy IPAs etc too.
> 
> ...



Mate the list just keeps growing of beers I want to make! Hefe might have to be next


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## butisitart (19/9/20)

carrobrew said:


> I don't really think I have an issue was just being over cautious about bottling this next brew I suppose.
> 
> 
> Tried it 2 weeks after bottling, it was no good. It wasn't fully carbed and I think there was still sugar in solution from priming so it just tasted like malt sweetness + more sweetness and no hop flavour. After waiting the extra week it's a completely different beer. I thought I had oxidised or ruined the whole batch somehow but the beer I sampled a few days ago was very nice. Could hold a head better and be slightly more carbed but that may improve as time goes by.


un-carbed can have a lot to do with carbonation levels in bottled beer. eg, a stout or brown with low carbonation levels (120g dextrose in 23L) will look pretty flat and lifeless for 2 months, then come really good and creamy.
kolsch, wheat etc on high carbonation levels (260gm dextrose) will have a good head a lot earlier on.
so maybe have a look at (and consider) your carbonation levels and what you want to achieve there.


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## Cloud Surfer (19/9/20)

carrobrew said:


> The missus asked if I was done buying homebrew gear the other day


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## Cloud Surfer (19/9/20)

carrobrew said:


> Mate the list just keeps growing of beers I want to make! Hefe might have to be next


I’m bottling a Hefeweizen tomorrow. I like Hefe a lot and can’t wait to see how it turns out. I deliberately fermented it cool, 18C and finished at 20C. I’m going to do it again and ferment it hot and compare the different esters.


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## kadmium (20/9/20)

Cloud Surfer said:


> I’m bottling a Hefeweizen tomorrow. I like Hefe a lot and can’t wait to see how it turns out. I deliberately fermented it cool, 18C and finished at 20C. I’m going to do it again and ferment it hot and compare the different esters.


Then you can compare over pitch, under pitch, oxygen no oxygen, liquid, dry and the list goes on. And if you get into all grain, ferrulic acid rests vs non oh shit it just multiplies


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## Cloud Surfer (20/9/20)

kadmium said:


> Then you can compare over pitch, under pitch, oxygen no oxygen, liquid, dry and the list goes on. And if you get into all grain, ferrulic acid rests vs non oh shit it just multiplies


Can’t you just give me all the answers and save me the time.


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## MHB (20/9/20)

Yer sure, the right answer to nearly all brewing questions is a resounding maybe!
If that doesn't cover it a follow up "it depends" should be all you need.
Mark


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## wide eyed and legless (20/9/20)

Not all oxygen is taken up from the head space as some imagine, leaving as small a head space as possible in the bottle, storing the finished beer below 20 C will help. I think it's more a problem for commercial breweries, shipping beer no control of temperature, shaking around, doesn't help. I had a Scottish heavy which I kept, (not all of it) for 2.5 years. Actually didn't mind too much the sherry like flavours coming through, just the blinding headaches I got from drinking it. It was still bright and crystal but definitely oxidised.




__





Staving off the Staling Compounds | MoreBeer







www.morebeer.com


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## kadmium (20/9/20)

The oxygen does damage to the beer in the bottle well before the yeast have a chance to 'scrub it out' or whatever. An advantage of PET bottles is the ability to squeeze them, and thus remove air from the neck.

The downside is you can't store them as long as glass, and you can't really wash them hot etc. I used both Glass and PET, now I have a small stock of PET bottles just in case.

Agreed with WEAL that some beers really do benefit, if not aren't damaged by some light oxidation. That's why I was perhaps pointing OP to more relevant styles that fit bottling better than kegging. Each has their pro's and cons.


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## Simon N (20/9/20)

Also look at how/when adding dry hops, as well as preventing oxygen ingress while cold crashing. I’ve always bottled and for me biggest improvement was further upstream changes.


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## butisitart (20/9/20)

oxidisation for me is another thing we as home brewers can sit around and get paranoid about, but at the end of the day, if you do the basics, it's highly unlikely to bugger up your bottling. i agree that there are 1% gains, but by doing the plain basics, I for one have never had a noticeable taste. something else to stop getting too anxious over.


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## carrobrew (20/9/20)

Bottle today. Went well. Tried to minimise any splashing but can still hear a bit when pushing the wand into the bottom of the bottle. Not really splashing but just noise when the beer rushes out of the end of the wand.

Didn’t matter where I put it, sometimes was very minimal but varied. Hopefully won’t be an issue. This is a very hoppy beer which is why I’m obsessing over it.

Tastes amazing without carb so I’ll be able to compare in a few weeks when it is carbed up to see if I’ve retained the taste.

Recipe if anyone was curious
Father’s Day Ipa - Carrowbrew
Brewfather


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## Luxo_Aussie (21/9/20)

Has anyone tried using the oxygen scavenging / absorption caps? The should (in theory) lower the risk of oxidation for bottled beers. I've started using them on the past two batches but haven't bottled any with the old caps as a control.

Oxidation hasn't been a problem for me over my past 45 batches, with several bottles aged for over a year as well. I only got these caps more thinking of them as a cheap insurance policy for hoppy or aged beers.


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## kadmium (21/9/20)

I don't know how well they work, and they recommend you don't sanitise them which is odd. Clean and sanitary are different things, but that's just me.

Capping on foam and PET bottles helps for beers you won't store for long periods.


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## Sidney Harbour-Bridge (22/9/20)

Pet bottles, squeeze all the air out before you fully tighten the cap not sure it makes any difference but it makes me feel better about it


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## butisitart (22/9/20)

Sidney Harbour-Bridge said:


> Pet bottles, squeeze all the air out before you fully tighten the cap not sure it makes any difference but it makes me feel better about it


luxo_aussie is in luxembourg. he's probably got a shed full of 500ml brown german swing-tops in plastic crates.
(quietly sobbing in the corner here)


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## Luxo_Aussie (22/9/20)

butisitart said:


> luxo_aussie is in luxembourg. he's probably got a shed full of 500ml brown german swing-tops in plastic crates.
> (quietly sobbing in the corner here)


Plastic crates yes, swing tops no. 27 crates of this.


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## butisitart (23/9/20)

Luxo_Aussie said:


> Plastic crates yes, swing tops no. 27 crates of this.


for me, plastic crates for 500ml swing tops for 500ml (SOOO much faster and cheaper on capping), i think all up i've actually got 27 crates too haha. got the 330ml crates off a japanese restaurant mate.
so i use 500 swing tops for higher rotation and 330ml caps for stuff i'm going to age, at 30 bottles per crate. super handy. got about 30 fensburger 330 ml swing tops but they're a bugger to store. as wide as a 500ml bottle so they won't fit in the smaller crate compartments. i thought you'd be rolling in swing tops LOL.


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## Luxo_Aussie (23/9/20)

butisitart said:


> for me, plastic crates for 500ml swing tops for 500ml (SOOO much faster and cheaper on capping), i think all up i've actually got 27 crates too haha. got the 330ml crates off a japanese restaurant mate.
> so i use 500 swing tops for higher rotation and 330ml caps for stuff i'm going to age, at 30 bottles per crate. super handy. got about 30 fensburger 330 ml swing tops but they're a bugger to store. as wide as a 500ml bottle so they won't fit in the smaller crate compartments. i thought you'd be rolling in swing tops LOL.


It was a hard decision but was concerned with the degradation of the rubber over time on the swing top caps and with this not knowing if one bottle had gone through 6 batches vs. one which was brand new without a detailed inspection of each before bottling. The caps just get replaced each batch so there no need to check anything aside from the bottles being clean. Do you replace the rubber very often?


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## butisitart (23/9/20)

Luxo_Aussie said:


> It was a hard decision but was concerned with the degradation of the rubber over time on the swing top caps and with this not knowing if one bottle had gone through 6 batches vs. one which was brand new without a detailed inspection of each before bottling. The caps just get replaced each batch so there no need to check anything aside from the bottles being clean. Do you replace the rubber very often?


if it's just too easy to clamp the cap on when bottling, i replace. but, when i was collecting bottles from a club-restaurant bin, there were always broken swing-top bottles , so i cannibalised the swing-tops and never had to pay for a new seal. i've got about 400 swing tops, i've replaced maybe 10-15 swing top units in the 6 years i've been using them, and i've got about 50 complete units sitting there. i think they've all gone through an awful lot more than 6 batches, i'm guessing comfortably more than 20 for a lot of them.
on the other hand, capping my longer term beers was an insurance policy i engaged in when i was a bit nervous on swing top seal degradation. now it's partly habit, and partly just cos i like the aged, often higher abv's in the smaller bottles. feels a bit more of a treat when i have one.
for a detailed inspection of the seals, you'd need better eyes than me LOL. when a swing-top starts going soft (easier to clamp shut), i mark the lid with a waterproof marker to keep an eye on it. it is quite noticeable how much softer it will go from one capping to the next.
and the other bonus when sanitising bottles on a plunger is - the caps are attached to the bottles, so they get dunked in the sanitising as you're going along. there's not much to not like about them.


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## Simon N (5/6/21)

Just to add my 2 cents... I bottled a session neipa 6 weeks ago (verdant yeast, 25% malted wheat, dry hop 8g/l) and tried a few different techniques. Results in photo below from left to right are 1) standard head space, 2) standard headspace with SMB, 3) only 1mm or so headspace.
Colour change is obvious. In a semi-blind test I could easily identify the no headspace beer, other two I couldn’t tell apart.
Will be bottling with no headspace (and no SMB addition) for hoppy beers from now on.


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## MHB (6/6/21)

OK the effect of Oxygen on highly hopped beers is pretty obvious. In terms of an experiment it's nice to get such clear results.
If you are bottling in glass leaving no ullage has always been regarded as a recipe for bottle bombs. No explosions or did you bottle in PET?
Be good to see the results of properly CO2 purged bottles, theory says that should give the best results, no O2 and a working amount of head space.
How did the taste change, particularly between 1 and 3? 
Good experiment, looking forward to seeing how the beer ages (assuming there is some left), would like to hear more about the flavour to.
Mark


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## Ballaratguy (6/6/21)

Simon N said:


> Just to add my 2 cents... I bottled a session neipa 6 weeks ago (verdant yeast, 25% malted wheat, dry hop 8g/l) and tried a few different techniques. Results in photo below from left to right are 1) standard head space, 2) standard headspace with SMB, 3) only 1mm or so headspace.
> Colour change is obvious. In a semi-blind test I could easily identify the no headspace beer, other two I couldn’t tell apart.
> Will be bottling with no headspace (and no SMB addition) for hoppy beers from now on.


Ok what is SMB?


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## MHB (6/6/21)

sodium metabisulfite


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## yankinoz (6/6/21)

One caution: No head space leaves no room for expansion of the beer. It isn't just freezing that's a likely problem. Water and most aqueous solutions begin to expand as the temperature falls below 4 degrees C. The expansion is slight, but enough to burst glass bottles (liquid expansion is a more formidable force than gaseous expansion). I say that from experience, and, no, the beer did not freeze.

So, either keep conditioning temps >4 (no problem for NEIPAs), leave 0.5 mm or so headspace , or use CO2. I've also heard of people using a small headspace, capping loosely, waiting a minute or so while CO2 from the beer forces out air, and then tightening the cap. With swing-tops, maybe.

Then there are PET bottles, but not for me.


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## Simon N (6/6/21)

Glass bottles… the low headspace ranged from about 5mm to 1mm just below the cap. Didn’t notice an obvious difference between them so will stick to 5mm to be safer. Also conditioned and chilled in wine fridge to prevent temp fluctuations. Certainly not be practice but have no access to co2 at present.

Big difference in aroma - low headspace you could clearly detect the different hops (citra and galaxy), others were lower in aroma and somewhat muted. I thought I detected sulfer in the SMB one when I first opened it, but in blind I couldn’t detect. Flavour difference was mainly that 1 and 2 were sweeter, and a more muddled hop flavour. No cardboard yet, which I have detected in the past.

These were the last 3 bottles as do small batches and try not to keep hoppy beers around too long.


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## MHB (6/6/21)

Keeping a NEPIA that pale and bright for 6 weeks is a credit to you.
I describe the Oxygen affected ones I have tasted as muddy, through to dish water in really bad cases.
Fortunatly for me it's not a style I want to be drinking or brewing often.
I found this interesting




Ribes is a blackcurant flavour tha is a precursor to Cardboard.
There is a better version in Kunze, I'll try to dig it up if you are interested.
Mark


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