# Black vs Midnight Wheat



## kevo (10/2/16)

Howdy all

Looking to make a stout/porter ish thing

85% pale
10% Amber
5% black

How might Midnight Wheat go subbed for the black malt in this sort of beer? I don't mind the coffee/roasts I get from black malt - what character might the wheat bring?

Cheers

Kev


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## Yob (10/2/16)

Midnight wheat only brings colour to the table iirc 

If you're going for a stout, some roast won't go astray, less so in the Porter.. 

Look up the style guidelines down under recipes for more information on each style


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## kevo (10/2/16)

The recipe is described as an historic stout porter! Not aiming for a specific current style - just a dark beer that tastes good.

No roasted barley so none of the acrid ashey which is nice.

If only getting colour from the wheat will stick with the black. 

Cheers

Kev


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## warra48 (10/2/16)

I don't use black at all in my Porters, but use about 7 or 8% Brown Malt, and about 5 or 6% Chocolate Wheat. 
Gives me all the colour I need, without the acrid character of Black malt (which I do not like).


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## technobabble66 (10/2/16)

Yob said:


> Midnight wheat only brings colour to the table iirc
> ...


Not entirely true - MW certainly gives some (roasty/toasty) flavours, but is much "smoother" than Black malt as it doesn't cause quite the same acrid element that the straight Black Malt does. And hence, gram-for-gram, MW kinda has less flavour impact than BM.
So what Yob says is partly true in the sense that it's very strong in affecting colour (like BM is) but as it is "smoother" a little won't produce the distinctive "burnt toast" flavour even a small amount of BM can cause. In my small experience, a little will produce some small roast element, but is almost subtle, while still dramatically darkening the beer.
Note that the acrid "burnt toast" flavour of BM isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just depends on whether that's what you're looking for, or if you want more colour and just a little (or less prominent burnt) roast flavour, i'd go the MW.
I'd note i've only used MW in Red/Dark saisons. I haven't tried it in a porter or stout, so take my comments with a grain of salt.
2c


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## Markbeer (11/2/16)

Ive used midnight wheat at 20% of the grain bill. Lots of espresso but smooth.

Most use it for colour. IE black ipa.


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## Mardoo (11/2/16)

Interesting, Markbeer. I've used up to 10% Black/Patent malt, including some in the boil. Came out as the bitter aspect of walnuts, burnt raisins, tobacco. I myself feel like simple descriptors for what malt brings are, well, simple descriptors. As Markbeers example shows a big part of how a malt expresses its flavours is how you use it.

What sort of beer was that in, Markbeer? Well, a dark one I presume


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## DJ_L3ThAL (11/2/16)

technobabble66 said:



> Not entirely true - MW certainly gives some (roasty/toasty) flavours, but is much "smoother" than Black malt as it doesn't cause quite the same acrid element that the straight Black Malt does. And hence, gram-for-gram, MW kinda has less flavour impact than BM.
> So what Yob says is partly true in the sense that it's very strong in affecting colour (like BM is) but as it is "smoother" a little won't produce the distinctive "burnt toast" flavour even a small amount of BM can cause. In my small experience, a little will produce some small roast element, but is almost subtle, while still dramatically darkening the beer.
> Note that the acrid "burnt toast" flavour of BM isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just depends on whether that's what you're looking for, or if you want more colour and just a little (or less prominent burnt) roast flavour, i'd go the MW.
> I'd note i've only used MW in Red/Dark saisons. I haven't tried it in a porter or stout, so take my comments with a grain of salt.
> 2c





Mardoo said:


> Interesting, Markbeer. I've used up to 10% Black/Patent malt, including some in the boil. Came out as the bitter aspect of walnuts, burnt raisins, tobacco. I myself feel like simple descriptors for what malt brings are, well, simple descriptors. As Markbeers example shows a big part of how a malt expresses its flavours is how you use it.
> 
> What sort of beer was that in, Markbeer? Well, a dark one I presume


Black Malt has scarred me for life, used it at 4.8% alongside chocolate at 9.6% and the stout was horrible. Had HEAPS of ash/tobacco, but none of the above descriptors I would say are pleasant. I'm sure it has it's place in some beers (just not mine). Perhaps my disappointment that it was not chocolatey like milk chocolate clouded my judgement, noob error. Maybe one day I'll use it again, but sparingly, *maybe*.


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## BrutusB (11/2/16)

Another alternative is Carafa Special II. Dehusked then roasted, avoids the acrid flavor you're worrying about.


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## fraser_john (11/2/16)

warra48 said:


> I don't use black at all in my Porters, but use about 7 or 8% Brown Malt, and about 5 or 6% Chocolate Wheat.
> Gives me all the colour I need, without the acrid character of Black malt (which I do not like).


Personally, I think brown malt is an overlooked malt when it comes to porters and stouts, it has excellent flavour and in larger amounts in a stout provides an excellent back bone to build upon with the blacker/roastier malts.


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## Mardoo (11/2/16)

Second that. Or is it third?


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## Danscraftbeer (11/2/16)

I'll go the Midnight Wheat in company with Dark Crystal and Dark Munick. in preference to the Black Malt. I don't like burnt malt bitterness. My Stouts are made very loosely to Style Guidelines but they definitely taste like stout. I do taste compare with respected craft beers/stouts. There's definitely flavour to MW. Its suggests little/no flavour for <2% but that's a lot of color still. I've made Tan Ale which is basically pale ale with some Midnight at 1.5 to 2% and You can taste it in a light flavoured sessionable. 
The best Smokey Oak Stout I made the darks were only 8.2% Midnight and 4.2% Dark Crystal the rest base malts and smoked malt. IBU = 58. Color = 74.6 EBC. 7.5%abv.
You could afford to go higher in IBU's because the MW is milder.
$0.02


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## Markbeer (11/2/16)

I used the midnight wheat in a stout.


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## Batz (11/2/16)

Don't expect anything like the colour from midnight wheat that you would get with black malt using similar amounts.


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## Yob (11/2/16)

fraser_john said:


> Personally, I think brown malt is an overlooked malt when it comes to porters and stouts, it has excellent flavour and in larger amounts in a stout provides an excellent back bone to build upon with the blacker/roastier malts.


Porters and stouts were traditionally made from brown malt, the black malts are relatively new to the styles


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## MHB (11/2/16)

Another big fan of the Weyermann Chocolate Wheat, very smooth and mellow. Have tasted it alongside the Briess Midnight Wheat and would always choose the German one.
Mark


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## earle (11/2/16)

Went thirds in a sack of choc wheat a while ago so I would always choose it as well.


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