# My Rogers Clone Recipe Tastes Great



## chrisluki

Hey guys

Ever since I joined here I have been talking about producing a Rogers clone...cos I bloody love that beer.

Well a little bit of inside info and I have had a crack at producing my own. Tonight I poured my first bottle of it...and I loved it! Smelled just like the real thing, colour maybe a little darker and a little more bitter...but very good! Got a few stubs of the real thing chilling to do a side by side tomorrow night.

The beersmith file is below if anyone wants it.

Cheers to good beers

Chris







View attachment ROGERS TRIBUTE.bsmx


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## Midnight Brew

22.5% Crystal 120L, is it sweet?


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## chrisluki

Midnight Brew said:


> 22.5% Crystal 120L, is it sweet?


Nah, not overly...try it out!


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## technobabble66

Looks great!
Does it have 22% crystal? Not concerned about sweetness, but what about astringency for all those roasted grains?
For those of us without Beersmith or working on a phone, could you please give us the boring old typed version?
Thanks!!


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## chrisluki

technobabble66 said:


> Looks great!
> Does it have 22% crystal? Not concerned about sweetness, but what about astringency for all those roasted grains?
> For those of us without Beersmith or working on a phone, could you please give us the boring old typed version?
> Thanks!!


Here you go...have a crack.

I am pretty new to this, so no expert really, but I didn't find it astringent. I finished off the first longneck and wanted another!!!


Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 20.00 l
Boil Size: 24.16 l
Boil Time: 90 min
End of Boil Vol: 21.32 l
Final Bottling Vol: 19.00 l
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage
Equipment - 3 Vessel Stainless Kegs
Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 73.8 %
Taste Rating: 30.0
Ingredients Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2.00 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (5.9 EBC) Grain 1 50.0 %
0.90 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236.4 EBC) Grain 2 22.5 %
0.50 kg Wheat, Flaked (3.2 EBC) Grain 3 12.5 %
0.30 kg Vienna Malt (6.9 EBC) Grain 4 7.5 %
0.30 kg Wyerman Cara-Pils (4.0 EBC) Grain 5 7.5 %
28.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 19.6 IBUs
25.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 3.8 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) [23.66 ml] Yeast 8 -
25.00 g Ella (aka Stella) [15.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
20.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 10 0.0 IBUs

Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color
Est Original Gravity: 1.042 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 3.8 %
Bitterness: 23.5 IBUs
Est Color: 41.5 EBC
Mash Profile
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body, No Mash Out
Sparge Water: 17.73 l
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C
Mash In Add 10.43 l of water at 75.7 C 68.9 C 45 min
Sparge: Fly sparge with 17.73 l water at 75.6 C


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## TheWiggman

Interesting grain bill, if that's what goes into it no wonder nobody's been able to clone it. Everything I've read warns of crystal upwards of 10%. Might have to put this on the 'to do' list.


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## technobabble66

Yeah - a really interesting US-style take on an English Mild.
Not just 22.5% of any crystal, but 22.5% of Dark crystal! Wow - in a lighter beer i'm a bit surprised it can pull it off (though i think Manticle's milds might do something similar with high crystal?).
Understandably high mash, though i would've thought 45mins would bring it back to the equivalent of 67°C. 

68.9°C? What happens if you mash at 69°C? 

Great to see the recipe.
Thanks a truckload!!


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## Burt de Ernie

> 68.9°C? What happens if you mash at 69°C?


Its like crossing the streams!


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## manticle

technobabble66 said:


> Yeah - a really interesting US-style take on an English Mild.
> Not just 22.5% of any crystal, but 22.5% of Dark crystal! Wow - in a lighter beer i'm a bit surprised it can pull it off (though i think Manticle's milds might do something similar with high crystal?).


Crystal in my mild is about 250g in 3.5 kg total grist. High short mash is the key. Not super sweet, just full and full flavoured. Also either heritage or mix of light, med, dark.

Glad your beer turned out how you wanted chrisluki.


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## chrisluki

technobabble66 said:


> Yeah - a really interesting US-style take on an English Mild.
> Not just 22.5% of any crystal, but 22.5% of Dark crystal! Wow - in a lighter beer i'm a bit surprised it can pull it off (though i think Manticle's milds might do something similar with high crystal?).
> Understandably high mash, though i would've thought 45mins would bring it back to the equivalent of 67°C.
> 
> 68.9°C? What happens if you mash at 69°C?
> 
> Great to see the recipe.
> Thanks a truckload!!


Yeah you are right, it is definitely a hybrid sort of beer.

As for the mash temps etc...i dont think i changed them, left that to Beersmith...so there may be a tweak to make there? if so, let me know how you go if you change it.


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## chrisluki

manticle said:


> Crystal in my mild is about 250g in 3.5 kg total grist. High short mash is the key. Not super sweet, just full and full flavoured. Also either heritage or mix of light, med, dark.
> 
> Glad your beer turned out how you wanted chrisluki.


Thanks

I reckon it could do with some tweaks from some more experienced brewers, as discussed here, before the final version is settled upon...so send them through if you have suggestions.

Looking forward to beer o'clock tonight with a couple of mates coming over to try this...I've asked them to be brutally honest with their tasting thoughts!


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## iJosh

The mates verdict?

I'm really keen to knock up a good Rogers clone. I just brewed this concoction I came up with yesterday:

Rogers Clone
American Amber Ale
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 24.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.250
Total Hops (g): 58.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.039 (°P): 9.8
Final Gravity (FG): 1.010 (°P): 2.6
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 3.83 %
Colour (SRM): 18.1 (EBC): 35.6
Bitterness (IBU): 25.3 (Tinseth - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60
Grain Bill
----------------
3.800 kg Traditional Ale (Joe White) (89.41%)
0.300 kg Dark Crystal (Joe White) (7.06%)
0.150 kg Chocolate (Joe White) (3.53%)
Hop Bill
----------------
8.0 g Magnum (German) Pellet (14.5% Alpha) @ 80 Minutes (Boil) (0.3 g/L)
25.0 g Cascade Leaf (8.6% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
25.0 g Cascade Leaf (8.6% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop) (1 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
5.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
5.0 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
15.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
2.0 g Whirlfloc Tablet @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
50.0 g Silica Dioxide @ 9 Days (Primary)
2.0 g Gelatin @ 7 Days (Primary)
Single step Infusion at 67°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 18°C with Safale US-05
Notes
----------------
* '0' minute additions are cube hops.
Recipe Generated with BrewMate


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## technobabble66

Yep - also waiting for the mates verdict on the side-by-side. 

Looks decent iJosh. 
I see you chickened out on the 22% dark Crystal :lol:
I'm keen to hear how the mouthfeel works out. Your mash temp seems a bit low for a mild. 
Also on a minor note, I'm assuming you're prepared for a possible difference in the effect of the yeast. S04 has a 75% attenuation and US05 has an 81% attenuation. That might be a bit disappointing in a mild beer. Not brewed anything like this so I'm really regurgitating all the stuff I've read on milds, but I thought you might like to know (in case you haven't pitched your yeast yet). 
Good luck and report back also.


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## chrisluki

iJosh said:


> The mates verdict?
> 
> I'm really keen to knock up a good Rogers clone. I just brewed this concoction I came up with yesterday:


I was very happy with their responses.

4 mates tried it, all loved it...and they weren't just being nice. All 4 had tasted Rogers before and one of them was a regular JSQ Constable drinker who said he would prefer mine to COnstable, so I was happy with that.

I had a few more myself and while I am happy with the beer, if i compare the final colour to Rogers it is probably a little too dark. Plus there is a slight after taste that I cant really describe, back of the tongue, lingers a bit.

I have a few craft brewery mates coming down next week to stay at my house and tour the hop fields...one of them is the head brewer and I am going to get him to taste this and my other beers and work out a few of my gremlins...I will be interested to see what he thinks of my Rogers tribute!


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## chrisluki

technobabble66 said:


> Yep - also waiting for the mates verdict on the side-by-side.
> 
> Looks decent iJosh.
> I see you chickened out on the 22% dark Crystal :lol:
> I'm keen to hear how the mouthfeel works out. Your mash temp seems a bit low for a mild.
> Also on a minor note, I'm assuming you're prepared for a possible difference in the effect of the yeast. S04 has a 75% attenuation and US05 has an 81% attenuation. That might be a bit disappointing in a mild beer. Not brewed anything like this so I'm really regurgitating all the stuff I've read on milds, but I thought you might like to know (in case you haven't pitched your yeast yet).
> Good luck and report back also.


i think i will back out the 22% crystal a bit...I used that to get the colour right in Beersmith, but the real colour came out a bit darker than i would have liked so i will back off on that.


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## technobabble66

chrisluki said:


> ... Plus there is a slight after taste that I cant really describe, back of the tongue, lingers a bit...


I'd be guessing that's astringency from the high level of crystal, esp given it's dark. 
I'd guess you could either steep the crystal in cold water over night instead of throwing it into the mash or drop the amount of crystal. It sounds like you're going to do the latter. I'd consider the former also. 
I've done a mini 90% crystal batch as an experiment (v educational) and was surprised by the extreme astringency it has and essentially no sweetness. This is heavily altered/masked by blending with other stuff at low proportions but as soon as the crystal gets too high I find that astringency pops straight out. 
Steeping cold is meant to minimize this, but I'd guess it can only help so much. 
2c


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## chrisluki

technobabble66 said:


> I'd be guessing that's astringency from the high level of crystal, esp given it's dark.
> I'd guess you could either steep the crystal in cold water over night instead of throwing it into the mash or drop the amount of crystal. It sounds like you're going to do the latter. I'd consider the former also.
> I've done a mini 90% crystal batch as an experiment (v educational) and was surprised by the extreme astringency it has and essentially no sweetness. This is heavily altered/masked by blending with other stuff at low proportions but as soon as the crystal gets too high I find that astringency pops straight out.
> Steeping cold is meant to minimize this, but I'd guess it can only help so much.
> 2c


Great advice...I will give it a crack.
Definitely going to play with the grain bill a bit on my next try...but i think the beer i tasted last night is a really good start,


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## iJosh

technobabble66 said:


> Yep - also waiting for the mates verdict on the side-by-side.
> 
> Looks decent iJosh.
> I see you chickened out on the 22% dark Crystal :lol:
> I'm keen to hear how the mouthfeel works out. Your mash temp seems a bit low for a mild.
> Also on a minor note, I'm assuming you're prepared for a possible difference in the effect of the yeast. S04 has a 75% attenuation and US05 has an 81% attenuation. That might be a bit disappointing in a mild beer. Not brewed anything like this so I'm really regurgitating all the stuff I've read on milds, but I thought you might like to know (in case you haven't pitched your yeast yet).
> Good luck and report back also.


I had already brewed my 'Rogers' and came across this thread by chance, so that's why I didn't go for the full 22% 

About the yeast... I go to LC in Freo regularly so I get to sample Rogers nice and fresh on tap. I can't say I ever detect the typical English yeast character in it, to me it's more floral than fruity. I also figured they are using US style yeast with the Pale, Bright, and IPA, so why would they use something different with Rogers. I have no evidence to back that assumption up though! I've already bought the US-05 so will use it this time around and maybe try English next time if I'm not happy.

Another thought... I have an ESB/Mild (4.7% so more ESB I guess) on tap at home at the moment that has a Maris Otter base, just over 10% Simpsons medium crystal with 2% Choc and used Mangrove Jacks Burton Union yeast. To me it has a good bit more body than Rogers does and is quite caramely which I've never associated with Rogers. Rogers has the body of a slightly bigger beer (maybe 4.5%?), but I wouldn't call it full bodied in the true sense. I think that's part of why it's so drinkable too, but I'm no expert that's for sure 

With my dry hops I plan to use them in my Randal rather than the traditional method. Rogers hop character is so fresh, and the only way I've been able to capture that at home so far is with Randy. I highly recommend every homebrewer who kegs to make a Randal BTW, they are awesome.

I'll report back in a few weeks when it's done!

Cheers.


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## iJosh

Thought you might be interested in this pic I took today down at the brewery




Interestingly there's no mention of dark crystal...


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## danestead

iJosh said:


> Thought you might be interested in this pic I took today down at the brewery
> 
> 
> 
> 2015-02-28 23.16.08.jpg
> Interestingly there's no mention of dark crystal...


Surely they need some crystal in there to achieve the colour that it is


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## iJosh

Yeah I would've thought so. Maybe they're using Chocolate Wheat?


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## technobabble66

Word on the street is that when most commercial breweries list their ingredients/recipes they accidentally leave out one or two elements ... just for a bit of a laugh. 
"Hey bob, remember years ago when we were telling everyone Rogers was just ale, Vienna and wheat malts? What a hoot! Kept those pesky home brewers guessing for years!!" etc etc. 

One explanation suggested is crystal is made from ale malt, so for example an English bitter could be listed as being 100% ale malt, even if it actually contained MO, dark crystal and biscuit malts. Esp if they buy just ale malt and do their own kilning, etc. 

Thanks v much for posting that photo, by the way. It's definitely great to see most if not all the ingredients!


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Inspired, thanks guys! Had this in Fremantle on tap and was the standout beer even during a boozy day! Really want to be able to offer guests something less ABV% and also have some bottles for myself when driving 

What do you think of the below have incorporated a few things I've read on the forum and this thread...

Ignore the yeast nutrient and irish moss amounts, i just have it in there to notify me on the timer when to add 



Roger Mild
Mild
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 24.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.650
Total Hops (g): 40.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.042 (°P): 10.5
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 3.74 %
Colour (SRM): 19.6 (EBC): 38.5
Bitterness (IBU): 24.1 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60
Grain Bill
----------------
2.000 kg Pale Malt (43.01%)
2.000 kg Vienna (43.01%)
0.500 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (10.75%)
0.150 kg Midnight Wheat (3.23%)
Hop Bill
----------------
20.0 g East Kent Golding Pellet (4.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
10.0 g Cascade Pellet (6.5% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Galaxy Pellet (11.9% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
5.0 g Irish Moss @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
1.0 g Yeast Nutrient @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
Single step Infusion at 67°C for 30 Minutes.
Fermented at 18°C with Safale US-05
Notes
----------------
Single infusion with mashout @ 78C
Recipe Generated with BrewMate


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## TheWiggman

I'd be interested to hear chrisluki's take on the above banter, he said he had inside info and knows the head brewer. If he put lots of crystal in there and reckons his is close, surely crystal is in the original and it's essential for a clone. 
I'm moving and won't be brewing for a while, but will line this up after a delicious stout and report back. I also somehow ended up with way too much English dark crystal in my stocks so this works out well. 
Yeast? Maybe WLP002?


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## iJosh

Yep, I'm hoping chrisluki chimes in again too. One thought... Could they be using 22% Carapils? That would remove the astringency problem. Could be used along with Choc Wheat (or Midnight Wheat) in similar proportions to this:

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.150
Original Gravity (OG): 1.039 (°P): 9.8
Final Gravity (FG): 1.010 (°P): 2.6
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 3.83 %
Colour (SRM): 16.6 (EBC): 32.6

Grain Bill
----------------
2.000 kg Traditional Ale (Joe White) (48.19%)
1.000 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (24.1%)
1.000 kg Vienna (Joe White) (24.1%)
0.150 kg Chocolate Wheat (Weyermann) (3.61%)


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## iJosh

@ DJ_L3ThAL

Looks the goods to me mate! Are you game enough to try my 22% Carapils theory?


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## DJ_L3ThAL

iJosh said:


> @ DJ_L3ThAL
> 
> Looks the goods to me mate! Are you game enough to try my 22% Carapils theory?


I'm game to try anything, but figured the midnight wheat would provide the colour and having a 50:50 pale/vienna would add some body. (Ive only ever used carapils around 3-5% for head retention... what else can it bring in higher amounts?)


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## chrisluki

Hey guys

The malt bill in the picture is correct. I used the Crystal to try and achieve the desired colour of 40EBC, cos i couldn't get it with the below malts.

Pale, Wheat, Carapils & Vienna.

If you have any ideas of how to get the dark ruby red colour in a different way, I am all ears.

As for the aroma, I got that pretty much spot on with my hop mix with this recipe.

I have put a call into an old workmate at LC to see if there is a trick that he can get the brewers to enlighten me on. If i find anything out, i will share.

Cheers

Chris


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## technobabble66

Fwiw, iirc the LC blurb on their website also states the extensive use of Ella hops. I notice that doesn't appear on the photo'd board. So do you reckon it could be they've tweaked the recipe or are they fibbing?

For the malts you simply can't get the required colour with the malts listed on that board (as stated already). So again they're either fibbing (haven't revealed at least one malt they're using in it) or they've done their own kilning on some of the pale malt. Fwiw, I also get a toasty flavour from Rogers that I doubt those malts listed would provide. So I'd guess they've used at least some crystal and/or Amber/victory/biscuit.
I'd *guess* if they're saying it's a nod to UK Bitters, it'll have crystal in it. Maybe medium crystal. However I'm definitely no expert on UK beers.
2c

EDIT: i stand corrected: "elements of an English Bitter with the malt character of an American Amber"
So i'd probably still go with crystal or caramalts (whatever the Briess equivalent is) and i'd be very tempted to go with Victory also. US Ambers seem to commonly use Choc malt as well, so it's not unreasonable to consider that (maybe instead of the Victory).

Maybe a worthwhile little thought exercise: What is the difference in the malt character (& therefore recipe) of an English Bitter compared to an American Amber?


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## chrisluki

I will find out more details for us on this malt...there has to be some come crystal!!

As for the hops...this is whats in it.

[SIZE=11pt]East Kent Goldings (UK) used in the kettle, Cascade (US) in the whirlpool with Stella (Aus) and Cascade (US, NZ and Tasmanian) whole hop flowers used in the hop back.[/SIZE]

I used Ella flowers, but Cascade pellets.


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## technobabble66

No galaxy?


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## chrisluki

technobabble66 said:


> No galaxy?


Nope!


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## chrisluki

MYSTERY SOLVED!!!

...well sort of...

The brewers use a malt extract to give it the colour it needs. 

A lot of breweries add caramel colour to beers, but I am not sure how this affects the ABV?

Discuss...


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## technobabble66

chrisluki said:


> The brewers use a malt extract to give it the colour it needs.


Those sneaky bastards!!!

Is it just a coloring agent? (Ie: no fermentables or flavour?)


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## DU99

cara amber or cara red will give a red colour


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## chrisluki

technobabble66 said:


> Those sneaky bastards!!!
> 
> Is it just a coloring agent? (Ie: no fermentables or flavour?)


The brewer was pretty coy about the information...

I am wondering if my crystal malt addition is taken out completely and you add in a fermentable caramel extract, that might solve it all? After all there is no crystal in the recipe, i just used that for colour by doing this caused the astringency i am tasting. i think you would need taste and colour from the extract?


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## AndrewQLD

weyermann sinamar would probably work well for the color adjustment.


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## TheWiggman

Brewer's caramel I imagine. Thirsty Boy mentioned it was an ingredient in Carton Draught for colouring as apart from that it's all base malt and sugar.
Maybe this / this from some forum sponsors would be ideal?

My understanding is brewer's caramel adds no increase to ABV and does not affect flavour in the quantities used. EBC of around 33000 so not much required. I would imagine on a home scale it might be hard to get the colour exactly right as not much would be required.


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## chrisluki

TheWiggman said:


> Brewers caramel I imagine. Thirsty Boy mentioned it was an ingredient in Carton Draught for colouring as apart from that it's all base malt and sugar.
> Maybe this / this from some forum sponsors would be ideal?


Sounds like a great idea...anyone know how to use it to achieve a target colour?


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## technobabble66

chrisluki said:


> The brewers use a malt extract to give it the colour it needs.


Those sneaky bastards!!!

Is it just a coloring agent? (Ie: no fermentables or flavour?)


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Sounds like you just need to put the container in the same room as your brew and you'd get the colour!!!


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## O-beer-wan-kenobi

I just had a Rodgers at LC in Freo. To me it definitely tastes like there is crystal malt in there. I couldn't taste much/any roast so maybe thy do add something for colour adjustment?
Also i could taste galaxy hops like a late addition or dry?

I have given it a go with the recipe below. Will see how it tastes and adjust from there. The ingredients are what I have in stock.
Turned out pretty dark in the fermenter so im not sure If my colour is dark or the 40 EBC they give on the website is higher than it actually is. Looks like a tad darker than a red ale so I wouldn't say it is 40 EBC.


Code:


Style: Mild Ale
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 68.45 l
Post Boil Volume: 66.56 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 60.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 58.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.043 SG
Estimated Color: 35.2 EBC
Estimated IBU: 29.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %

Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------  
8.71 kg               Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) 74.8 %        
0.83 kg               Carared (Weyermann) (47.3 EBC) 7.1 %         
0.83 kg               Dark Crystal (Bairds) (240.0 EBC) 7.1 %         
0.83 kg               Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) 7.1 %         
0.22 kg               Carafa II (811.6 EBC) 1.9 %         
0.22 kg               Pale Chocolate Malt (Bairds) (500.0 EBC) 1.9 %         
115.11 g              Styrian Goldings [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop 29.6 IBUs                        
110.00 g              Cascade Flowers [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min  Hop   
1.3 pkg               Whitbread Ale (Wyeast Labs #1099)           


Mash Schedule:3 Step Mash
Total Grain Weight: 11.64 kg
----------------------------  
Protein Rest      Add 33.58 l of water at 59.3 C          55.0 C        10 min        
Saccharification  Add 0.01 l of water and heat to 69.0 C  69.0 C        45 min        
Rest              Heat to 72.0 C over 10 min              72.0 C        15 min        
Mash Out          Add 0.00 l of water at 78.0 C           78.0 C        0 min


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## Brewman_

Just noticed this thread. I love this beer. 

a year or so back a mate's wife approached me to make a mid strength beer for a party. She handed me an empty bottle of Rogers and said 'Like this".

I made the beer to match Rogers and the results were pretty good. I won't talk about the hops because I deliberately changed them. But the malt profile / colour / ABV % was bloody close to a rogers.

Interestingly was asked to make the same beer again on the weekend by someone else.

Here's the Malt bill I used. The Key ingredient is the TF UK Mild Ale Malt, it's great for English Milds and this beer it's perfect.

Pale Ale (Perl) Bairds 38.4%
Mild Ale (TF-UK) 36.3%
Munich Light (Wey) 20.9%
Dark Crystal (TF-UK) 2.8%
Pale Chocolate (TF-UK) 1.7%

Mashed at 68.
This was a cracker and just the beer they wanted for the party.

I plan to make this again as soon as the TF Mild is back in the country, maybe 3 or 4 weeks away.
Will revise the hops and go back to hitting the rogers hop profile next time.

Steve


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## iJosh

Ok, so the 22% crystal idea is out. I thought chrisluki was implying this was the 'secret' lol  

I wonder if the order of ingredients listed in the pic is an indication of quantities...? Most to least?


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## DJ_L3ThAL

iJosh said:


> I wonder if the order of ingredients listed in the pic is an indication of quantities...? Most to least?


I made that assumption when having my stab at it. I've got 3 weeks until brew day for this, so *<insert .gif of Michael Jackson eating popcorn in Thriller>*


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## chrisluki

Hey guys

I am going to have a play around with the recipe and switch to this grain bill

2.4kg Pale (60.8%)
0.5kg Wheat (12.7%)
0.35kg Cara-Pils (8.9%)
0.3kg Crystal 240 EBC (7.6%)
0.3kg Vienna (7.6%)
0.1kg Chco Malt (2.5%)

Backing off the 22% Crystal should fix the astringency and using some Choc should help me with the 40 EBC colour. I was going to go with a Caramel colouring solution that spirits distillers use, as I am not sure about this mysterious "malt extract" that is used. So while there is no Crystal or Choc in the original recipe, there must be something like that in the extract.

I am gonna call this brew "The Tribute", cos this is not the greatest brew in the world...

See what i did there!

Can't wait to brew this one!

Cheers

Chris


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## technobabble66

Just downed one of these babies tonight, & FWIW i'd guess the "crystal" flavour we're detecting is more from the EKG.
I've found that over the last few years that the "crystal"-like caramel flavour i detect in English bitters etc is probably coming from EKG used late in the boil. It seems to bring out a caramel-like flavour in the malts. I've gotta admit i would've thought there's still a bit of crystal in there that the EKG is highlighting, but maybe it's all purely EKG.
As an example, i've currently doing an ESB that (mid fermentation) seems to have a particularly strong caramel flavour to it. Yes i've used crystal, but i've used crystal in lots of brews without the same flavour. But what is particularly different is 1) the heavy use of late EKG and 2) a separate boil to reduce 3L to 0.5L. One of those two seems to have done the trick. Roger's officially uses EKG, so i'm guessing a fair bit of it is coming from that, given its the only common factor.
2c


----------



## bigmunchez

I had a play around with trying to clone Rogers a couple of years ago using only the malts on the blackboard. The best attempt involved taking a couple of litres of the first runnings and reducing/caramelising them in a separate pot and then adding them back to the boil. It definitely gave a 'dark crystal' character to the malt profile. If I were to try again today I'd use about 40% pale, 40% vienna, 10% wheat, 5-10% carapils and caramelise about 3L of first runnings to a dark syrup.


----------



## Liam_snorkel

"extra toasted caramalt" according to this pic I pinched from another thread


----------



## Blind Dog

technobabble66 said:


> Just downed one of these babies tonight, & FWIW i'd guess the "crystal" flavour we're detecting is more from the EKG.
> I've found that over the last few years that the "crystal"-like caramel flavour i detect in English bitters etc is probably coming from EKG used late in the boil. It seems to bring out a caramel-like flavour in the malts. I've gotta admit i would've thought there's still a bit of crystal in there that the EKG is highlighting, but maybe it's all purely EKG.
> As an example, i've currently doing an ESB that (mid fermentation) seems to have a particularly strong caramel flavour to it. Yes i've used crystal, but i've used crystal in lots of brews without the same flavour. But what is particularly different is 1) the heavy use of late EKG and 2) a separate boil to reduce 3L to 0.5L. One of those two seems to have done the trick. Roger's officially uses EKG, so i'm guessing a fair bit of it is coming from that, given its the only common factor.
> 2c


I'd put my money on the reduction from 3L to 0.5L as the main reason for the caramel flavour rather than the EKG itself. Agree that late EKG does seem to round out the malt flavours and emphasis caramel, but I've found they need to be there in the 1st place for it to work. YMMV etc.


----------



## O-beer-wan-kenobi

Liam_snorkel said:


> "extra toasted caramalt" according to this pic I pinched from another thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LC pale & rogers.jpg


Im sure there is crystal/caramalt in there.
It would be good if anyone in the know could tell us whats in the recipe and put this to bed.

How about the yeast. Does anyone know the strain they use?


----------



## technobabble66

Blind Dog said:


> I'd put my money on the reduction from 3L to 0.5L as the main reason for the caramel flavour rather than the EKG itself. Agree that late EKG does seem to round out the malt flavours and emphasis caramel, but I've found they need to be there in the 1st place for it to work. YMMV etc.


Yeah, tried my ESB a bit more this morning & i think i'd agree.
The EKG is working in there, but i suspect there's a lot coming from the caramelised reduction; and as you say, that that's what the EKG is really working on.


----------



## technobabble66

Liam_snorkel said:


> "extra toasted caramalt" according to this pic I pinched from another thread


So what, you think they toast the carapils to get it dark? Why not just use CaraBoh or Med crystal, etc?
When were the 2 pics of the boards taken? - maybe they originally did the extra toasted thing, then decided it was easier to use carapils and add colouring agent.

I'd probably go with the caramelised reduction thing to get that "crystal" flavour.
But surely a commercial brewery wouldn't do this --> wouldn't it cost a bomb to significantly reduce/caramelise a commercial volume of wort??


----------



## Liam_snorkel

I don't reckon they'd do a caramelised reduction at a commercial scale.

nah, I'd guess they get some dark crystal made to their specs. I'd go with a combo of carared & caraaroma or something like that if I were to have a crack at it.


----------



## technobabble66

Yep & Yep
I'd be tempted to go a little of [Med Crystal or Amber] + [CaraBoh or CaraAroma] ... plus a caramelisation reduction. Hopefully that covers both the caramel "crystal" flavour plus the toasty element.


----------



## manticle

Overcomplexmrtechnobabblesir.

Try increasing the boil by an hour. You'd be surprised how much rich crystal type flavour a 3hr boil will bring to a 100% maris grist.
However you do it though; do one or two things at a time, rather than seven.


----------



## technobabble66

manticle said:


> Overcomplexmrtechnobabblesir.
> 
> Try increasing the boil by an hour. You'd be surprised how much rich crystal type flavour a 3hr boil will bring to a 100% maris grist.
> However you do it though; do one or two things at a time, rather than seven.


Silly manticle, that's far too simple!
h34r: 

On a more serious note, yeah, i think i've got way too many spec grains - i can't resist using all of them. All at once.
However, i'd still suggest there's a certain toasty element in the Roger's that doesn't seem to be addressed with the grain bill of Pale + Wheat + Carapils + Vienna. Is there anything in there that'd give a toasty flavour?
So at the risk of grossly overcomplicating the recipe, i'd probably go with a whisker of CaraAroma (as per Liam's suggestion) plus the long boil or reduction. How's that sound?


----------



## Blind Dog

Liam_snorkel said:


> I don't reckon they'd do a caramelised reduction at a commercial scale.
> 
> it.


Don't really see why not, it's done by a number of commercial breweries in the UK (Sam smiths being one)


----------



## goatus

I was listening to a Jamil show "Brewing with style" podcast this morning and it brought up something relevant to this thread.

It was on IIPAs, but they had the brewers from stone and beechwood on, and they began discussing crystal, and their general adversion to using it except in small amounts. They both agreed however the only time they do use big amounts of crystal was in their session beers (especially < 4% ABV hoppy beers) - they both agree that their house session beers they use a "fairly large amount of crystal 120" and mash very high. Also discussed was using english crystal for less sweetness, more flavour than the US crystal. The OP might be onto something with the large crystal bills for smaller beers. Will have to try it out myself.

LIsten to the show here. The great 5 min discussion on Crystal begins at 43:30 if you want to skip to it.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Giving this a crack on Sunday, will get it fermenting as fast as possible and going to keg half the batch and bottle half. Will post results here. Hopefully at the very least I get a tasty mild to offer peeps!


----------



## O-beer-wan-kenobi

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Giving this a crack on Sunday, will get it fermenting as fast as possible and going to keg half the batch and bottle half. Will post results here. Hopefully at the very least I get a tasty mild to offer peeps!


How did it turn out DJ_3ThAL?
Next time I do this I think I will aim for a recipe similar to yours. My attempt was off the mark but still tasted good, too much crystal and too dark. May have been the Crafa III i used and not Carafa II used in designing the recipe.

In the latest issue of Beer and Brewer magazine the Little Creatures Pale Ale is reviewed and they say that Little Creatures use malt that is kilned or malted to their own specifications. I wonder if this is the case for Rogers?


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Sadly didn't get it brewed over Easter, milled grain is still sitting waiting for me!!! :-(

Hoping this Sunday I can get it done and be fermenting it by mid next week!


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Currently boiling this, had 1.032 pre-boil, the EKG addition is wafting out all sort of delicious smells!


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Boiled a bit hard, got 21L at 1.044 instead of 22L at 1.039. Will top up with water to 1.039 when I ferment this in a couple weeks time!


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Got this fermenting away as of last Saturday, topped up with 4L of water to 1.037. So sadly that will mean my colours and IBU may be off, but I'd rather keep it as a mild strength as intended. Got it at 20C along with two other brews using US05.
Will report back at gravity reading/taste test stage


----------



## technobabble66

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> ....
> Will report back at gravity reading/taste test stage


There is a stage of that? More of a continuum for me - I'm too impatient. 
Great to hear how it goes!


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Haha, yeah I tend to just leave for 12 days and test then, if all good set fridge to a couple C higher for 2 days and then cold crash for a week before kegging/bottling. Dry hop accordingly ahead of keg/bottle day.

I'd like to say I'm patient, but it's more laziness and minimisation of effort


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Kegged and bottled it this weekend, hydro sample tasted great but reserving judgment against the real thing once carbonated and aged for a week or two, colour looks pretty good, even my watered down version is 3.9%


----------



## chrisluki

Nice!!


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Correction, kegged version is 3.7%. Tapped the keg tonight, but didn't do a side-by-side at this stage. Initial thoughts are very good, quite clean, crisp, effervescent even! The midnight wheat is extremely subtle, it's a very light tasting beer (like the original). I perhaps could have upped the hops to my taste, but think this is close to the original. Carbonation comes through great (2.4 volumes), colour is that nice dark brown creamy soda, crystal clear much to my surprise (I usually get a bit of haze). Will do a side by side and take some photos later this week and report back.


----------



## Nizmoose

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Giving this a crack on Sunday, will get it fermenting as fast as possible and going to keg half the batch and bottle half. Will post results here. Hopefully at the very least I get a tasty mild to offer peeps!


DJ is there any particular reason for the 30 minute mash rest? Just wondering if it was a time constraint thing or if the 30 minute mash was actually there to achieve something different with the end product like perhaps less fermentability? Cheers


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Yep, less fermentability. From memory I based this off one of manticles English mild thread suggestions.


----------



## manticle

30 minutes at a high temp is enough for alpha amylase to reduce starch to dextrins but limits beta amylase activity so you get a fuller bodied light abv beer. 70 for 30 works wonders.


----------



## Nizmoose

Awesome thanks heaps both of you looking forward to giving it a go as the only low OG beer (bitter) I have done so far did end up thin.


----------



## chrisluki

Been a while since we all debated this recipe and the other variants...but this is what i am going with this weekend. I have significantly dropped the Crystal Malt to remove the astringency i tasted in my first attempt...will use the distillers caramel to alter the colour.

*A Tribute To Rogers*
Brewer: Chris 
Batch Size: 20.00 l 
Style: American Amber Ale/ESB
Boil Size: 24.16 l 
Target Color: 40 EBC 
Bitterness: 24.1IBUs 
Boil Time: 60 min
Est OG: 1.039 
Mash Profile: Single Infusion, Full Body, No Mash Out
Est FG: 1.012 
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage
ABV: ~3.6% 

*Ingredients*
2.50 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) UK 5.9 EBC
500.0 g Wheat, Flaked 3.2 EBC
400.0 g Caramel/Crystal Malt -270EBC
300.0 g Wyerman Cara-Pils 4.0 EBC
200.0 g Vienna Malt 6.9 EBC
28.0 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.0%] - Boil 60 min
25.0 g Cascade [5.5%] - Boil 5 min 
1 pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04)
25.0 g Ella (aka Stella) [15.0%] - Dry Hop 5 days 
20.0 g Cascade [5.5%] - Dry Hop 5 days 

Distillers Caramel to be used to get near the Rogers colour...I think this is the type of brewers extract they use at the brewery...or near enough!
http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/search/8TS+DISTILLERS+CARAMEL

Still undecided whether i should use S-04 or S-05...thoughts?

Cheers

Chris


----------



## Nizmoose

Funnily enough just last night I had a try of my attempt of this and unfortunately it is lacking. Its slightly undercarbonated at the moment so that may be contributing but the body is watery and thin and the flavour is simply lacking in pretty much every area, needs more maltiness and sweetness and also more colour. It was mashed at 67 for 30 mins but I think I'll move it to 69-70 for longer and add a protein rest early to see if I can improve the mouthfeel.


Recipe below is what was brewed, few things I need to change include upping the crystal darkness and I'm tinking about throwing in some Munich to add more malt flavour.


----------



## Rod

Anyone have a recipe converted to extract


----------



## chrisluki

Rod said:


> Anyone have a recipe converted to extract


Sorry, I only do AG brews!


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Nizmoose said:


> Funnily enough just last night I had a try of my attempt of this and unfortunately it is lacking. Its slightly undercarbonated at the moment so that may be contributing but the body is watery and thin and the flavour is simply lacking in pretty much every area, needs more maltiness and sweetness and also more colour. It was mashed at 67 for 30 mins but I think I'll move it to 69-70 for longer and add a protein rest early to see if I can improve the mouthfeel.
> 
> 
> Recipe below is what was brewed, few things I need to change include upping the crystal darkness and I'm tinking about throwing in some Munich to add more malt flavour.
> 
> 
> 
> Rogers.PNG


Good work mate, did you do a side by side with the commercial example? I found mine pretty close but yes some body would be better, but it would steer it away from the original (for the better mind you).


----------



## Nizmoose

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Good work mate, did you do a side by side with the commercial example? I found mine pretty close but yes some body would be better, but it would steer it away from the original (for the better mind you).


Yeah did a side by side, the overall beer I wasn't too unhappy with, it was easy drinking and didnt have anything in the way of off flavours its more that it lacked character compared to the commercial. Just had a look and it looks like I actually did use pretty much your recipe, did your colour come out okay? From memory I think I did dilute a bit due to getting better efficiency than expected. Definitely going to re-brew with better mouthfeel in mind and see if I can get it a bit closer


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Colour was spot on for me, hops were slightly lacking, but ever so slight. technobabble tasted it side by side with me, he had some suggestions on the grist to replace the vienna with more pale base and add some munich if I recall correctly?


----------



## manticle

67 is definitely too mid range. Bite the bullet and just go straight for 70 (or 55 for 5, 70 for 30, 72 for 10 then 78 for mashout for 10).


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Yeah I need to change single items so I can gauge the results properly. Thanks for the tip manticle next go will keep all things equal and change the mash to your suggested schedule!


----------



## Nizmoose

yeah just realised your crystal was 120 and mine was 60L so I'll change that up and that should fix the colour, as manticle suggested The higher mash is what I'll do to save the body. This is going to be my new recipe:

39% Pale Malt (maybe a percentage of that munich)
39% Vienna Malt
8.6% Crystal 120L
8.6% Pale Wheat
2.1% Midnight Wheat

14g or 15AAU of EKG @ 60 minutes
5g or 0.3 g/L of Galaxy @ 10 minutes (6 AAU)
5g or 0.3 g/L of Cascade @ 10 minutes (3 AAU)

For the mash 54C/10mins 70C/30mins 72C/10mins 78C/10mins

Fermented with Nottingham at 18C


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

I subbed 120L on cos on brew day i realised i didnt have 60L, lol turned out good it seems!


----------



## manticle

Time of mash is as important as temp nizmoose. Drop the main mash to 30. You won't regret it.


----------



## Nizmoose

manticle said:


> Time of mash is as important as temp nizmoose. Drop the main mash to 30. You won't regret it.



Cheers for this manticle, I thought about a 30 minute which is what I did for the first version but then couldnt think of a reason to not extend it for the sake of knowing conversion is definitely complete, is the reason for shortening the rest to make sure no beta chops up some of the longer chain stuff (obviously 70 is denaturing beta but not instantly) and therefore drying the beer out more than I want? 



DJ_L3ThAL said:


> I subbed 120L on cos on brew day i realised i didnt have 60L, lol turned out good it seems!


haha lucky! Yours would definitely have benefitted from it, I'll get a photo of mine and put it up here at some stage but its definitely too light


----------



## manticle

Pretty much. Alpha works quickly, beta slower and at the higher temp, beta is getting even less encouragement.

Full conversion just means no starch. Don't think of this as maximising maltose yield - that isn't the point and you have no pressing need to do so.

Alpha chops starch into shorter chains, beta chops them further. Those longer chains result in mouthfeel so give beta no/less chance.


----------



## technobabble66

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Colour was spot on for me, hops were slightly lacking, but ever so slight. technobabble tasted it side by side with me, he had some suggestions on the grist to replace the vienna with more pale base and add some munich if I recall correctly?



Yep. I'm keen to see how this goes.

All i remember from the side-by-side was there seemed to be a malt element i associate with Munich. Not sure what you'd sacrifice to get it - i can't remember anything else of the comparison other than the Munich thing.

With the Mash Schedule, Why not do 55/71/78 for 5/30/2 to simplify it?

...
Just checked your recipe on Post #60. 
I'm partly guessing as i can't remember exactly the taste comparison... But, a couple of ideas spring to mind:
1) Maybe replace just the Pale Ale malt with the Munich, or equal amounts of Pale & Vienna replaced with Munich. I'd be tempted to err towards keeping the vienna as it should add a little more toastiness.
2) Maybe halve the Carapils and replace that half with Med Crystal - add a little more middle-caramel flavour, seems to be bang on for Roger's, to me.
3) Maybe replace the Midnight Wheat with Choc Malt - add a little more roasty-toastiness rather than more smooth burntness


Merely suggestions, esp #2 & 3. Otherwise, i was v impressed with your attempt, DJ. Pretty damn close!


----------



## Nizmoose

technobabble66 said:


> 1) Maybe replace just the Pale Ale malt with the Munich, or equal amounts of Pale & Vienna replaced with Munich. I'd be tempted to err towards keeping the vienna as it should add a little more toastiness.
> 2) Maybe halve the Carapils and replace that half with Med Crystal - add a little more middle-caramel flavour, seems to be bang on for Roger's, to me.
> 3) Maybe replace the Midnight Wheat with Choc Malt - add a little more roasty-toastiness rather than more smooth burntness
> 
> 
> Merely suggestions, esp #2 & 3. Otherwise, i was v impressed with your attempt, DJ. Pretty damn close!


These are good suggestions, whilst trying to nut my above new recipe out I really thought about doing away with all the pale and just replacing it with munich. It sure is tempting, hey even if DJ does one I'll do the other and send you a bottle or three so you can see what was better then you can chuck the results up here and we'll have a solid recipe.


----------



## technobabble66

Hard to tell if that'd end up being too much Munich/maltiness or just enough. Might be fairly intense with the Base being made up entirely of Vienna & Munich. However, i reckon it'd be awesome also!

I'm more than happy to try some tasters and offer my opinion!

(In fact, i was kinda hoping DJ would be onto the next batch so i could invite myself around to try it... h34r:  )


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Haha I better get drinking, still got half a keg left of the first attempt! I keep gravitating towards the 2x 6.4% IPAs in preference


----------



## chrisluki

My batch is fermenting away as we speak. Hit the OG spot on, colour is lighter than Rogers but my little bottle O caramel will fix that!


----------



## technobabble66

Hey DJ,

Had a spare second to throw this together as per my guesstimated tweaks to your recipe:

*Ramjet Ale*
24L
OG=1.039
FG=1.013
IBU=24.0
EBC=32
alc=3.8%

1.4kg (34%) MO (TFFM)
1.4kg (34%) Vienna (Wey)
0.4kg (10%) Munich 2 (Wey)
0.4kg (10%) Wheat
0.2kg (5%) CaraPils
0.2kg (5%) Med Crystal (Simpsons)
0.1kg (2.5%) Choc (Simpsons)

8g (0.3g/L) EKG (4.5%) @ FWH
10g (0.4g/L) EKG (4.5%) @ 20mins
15g (0.6g/L) Cascade (7.8%) @ 20mins
10g (0.4g/L) Galaxy (13.4%) @ 20mins
20g (0.8g/L) each of Cascade & Galaxy dry hop

(** 20mins additions are to be cube-hopped - should capture more of the hops elements)

Mash: 55/70/72/78 for 5/30/20/2
(as per manticle's suggestion. Might go with 55/71/78 for 5/30/2 for simplicity, or just 70/78 for 30/2)

plus some brewing salts, nutrients, etc.
yeast = US05, American Ale, 1272, etc.
---------------------------------------

Whatcha think?


----------



## chrisluki

Bottled my beer last night.

I had to add so much of that caramel extract but got nowhere near the colour change i expected with it. The beer is probably half as dark as i had hoped.

Ah well, as long as it tastes good, i will be happy!


----------



## Nizmoose

Yeah the colour seems to be really hard to achieve, can't remember if it's been suggested yet but I'm thinking a bit of midnight wheat to add colour but no flavour?


----------



## paulyman

What about subbing some of the Gladfield malts for crystal, shepherds delight and red back are supposed to give a red colour.


----------



## mofox1

paulyman said:


> What about subbing some of the Gladfield malts for crystal, shepherds delight and red back are supposed to give a red colour.


I'd be careful trying to do colour adjustments by subbing base with crystal. Especially Gladdy's Shep Delight - reportedly very strong even in small amounts.

Much better to go Nizmoose's suggestion and use small amounts of roasted grain/malt.

Midnight Wheat & Carafa Special will work well w/o contributing much roasty flavour. Roasted barley will also work if you don't have the others, but (somewhat counter-intuitively) choc malts will do a similar colour adjustment but contribute a lot more flavour.


----------



## paulyman

mofox1 said:


> I'd be careful trying to do colour adjustments by subbing base with crystal. Especially Gladdy's Shep Delight - reportedly very strong even in small amounts.
> 
> Much better to go Nizmoose's suggestion and use small amounts of roasted grain/malt.
> 
> Midnight Wheat & Carafa Special will work well w/o contributing much roasty flavour. Roasted barley will also work if you don't have the others, but (somewhat counter-intuitively) choc malts will do a similar colour adjustment but contribute a lot more flavour.


Sounds fair enough to me, I haven't used it yet.

I will be trying one of the recipes above over spring/summer, might try and get a double batch in.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

This is colour comparison of mine with midnight wheat used (recipe from previous post). Mine left commercial right.


----------



## technobabble66

Yep (as per discussion w DJ), I tried a Rogers shortly after my post above. There's virtually no distinct roast/toast flavour in the real deal.
As mofox mentions, the 100g choc malt in mine would add too much roast/toast flavour so I'd replace it with ~50g? of midnight wheat (as per DJ above).
How much midnight was in the above clone, DJ? Is that the one I tried?

One other option might be to try to use CaraAroma instead of midnight wheat to get the colour, as the crystal-type flavour of it may blend into the other med crystal and not be too noticeable. But I have doubts on that theory. I'd probably go with the midnight wheat. Or maybe a bit of both!


EDIT:
Just checked my spreadsheet. I dropped the 100g Choc malt, then dropped out 60g of MO (down to 1.34kg MO) and added 60g Midnight Wheat. Produces a colour of 27.5 EBC (& alc drops to 3.7%). So would be a shade lighter the DJ's, which *might've* been a shade darker than the original.
Doing a similar sub using CaraAroma requires 200g to achieve a similar colour. I'd guess that's going to be really noticeable. I'm sure it'd be v tasty, but it'd be different from the original.


----------



## Nizmoose

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> This is colour comparison of mine with midnight wheat used (recipe from previous post). Mine left commercial right.


Lovely work, looking at that photo of the commercial example makes me think I'm actually closer to the right colour than I thought I was, I remember it being darker


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> This is colour comparison of mine with midnight wheat used (recipe from previous post). Mine left commercial right.





technobabble66 said:


> Yep (as per discussion w DJ), I tried a Rogers shortly after my post above. There's virtually no distinct roast/toast flavour in the real deal.
> As mofox mentions, the 100g choc malt in mine would add too much roast/toast flavour so I'd replace it with ~50g? of midnight wheat (as per DJ above).
> How much midnight was in the above clone, DJ? Is that the one I tried?
> 
> One other option might be to try to use CaraAroma instead of midnight wheat to get the colour, as the crystal-type flavour of it may blend into the other med crystal and not be too noticeable. But I have doubts on that theory. I'd probably go with the midnight wheat. Or maybe a bit of both!
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> Just checked my spreadsheet. I dropped the 100g Choc malt, then dropped out 60g of MO (down to 1.34kg MO) and added 60g Midnight Wheat. Produces a colour of 27.5 EBC (& alc drops to 3.7%). So would be a shade lighter the DJ's, which *might've* been a shade darker than the original.
> Doing a similar sub using CaraAroma requires 200g to achieve a similar colour. I'd guess that's going to be really noticeable. I'm sure it'd be v tasty, but it'd be different from the original.



Yep it's the same one you tried TB, still have some on tap!!! Realised I posted recipe in image format/not so friendly in previous post. Here it is below:

Roger Mild
Mild
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 24.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.650
Total Hops (g): 40.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.042 (°P): 10.5
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 3.74 %
Colour (SRM): 19.6 (EBC): 38.5
Bitterness (IBU): 24.1 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
2.000 kg Pale Malt (43.01%)
2.000 kg Vienna (43.01%)
0.500 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (10.75%)
0.150 kg Midnight Wheat (3.23%)

Hop Bill
----------------
20.0 g East Kent Golding Pellet (4.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
10.0 g Cascade Pellet (6.5% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Galaxy Pellet (11.9% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
1/2tablet Irish Moss @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
1/2tsp Yeast Nutrient @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
Single step Infusion at 67°C for 30 Minutes.
Fermented at 18°C with Safale US-05

Notes
----------------
Single infusion with mashout @ 78C




My grist was essentially based on the originals discussions in this thread and this http://cdn.aussiehomebrewer.com/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-21568-0-18225900-1425136634.jpg photo from the brewery then someone commenting it could be midnight wheat giving the colour.

I "rounded" my actual numbers to make it simpler, but had closer to 2.5% midnight wheat in the original recipe. Thinking if I backed it off from 3.2% to 2.5% it might get the colour closer. But so as to get the slightly more rich malty/caramel flavour to the grist, would simply subbing the standard Joe White Pale malt for Marris Otter perhaps be the difference needed or would it not be enough of a difference on it's own?


----------



## technobabble66

Hey DJ,
that recipe you just posted is different to the one you posted earlier in the thread, @ post#60. So is this one above the one you actually brewed on the day?
I based my suggested recipe on post#60 (namely the OG/EBC/IBU), so i might need to tweak it if it's not quite the one i tasted.

By the way, while trolling thru the thread looking for your earlier recipe post, i found Liam's post#49 which has a pic that mentions an extra toasted caramalt. What the hell did we end up deciding that was all about?? Was that meant to be the carapils? (which doesn't sound right). I feel a bit more confident it's basically going to be replicated by the Med crystal. Maybe that plus replacing the JW Ale with Simpsons/TF MO will be enough to nail it!

Hurry up and brew the next version!!


----------



## chrisluki

[SIZE=11pt]15 brews in, and after A LOT of lessons learned (infections, alpha acid calcs, use of specialty malts) ...Finally I have brewed something that I am proud of! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]It didn't hit the colour that I wanted, even with the brewers caramel, and it has a little less on the nose than I hoped for...but it was damn tasty! [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]You could not wipe the smile off my face last night when I was drinking it, my wife though I was a fool![/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]12 months of toiling away..no brewing experience, building my own set up and going all grain straight away...last night made it feel like it was all worth it. My best beer yet![/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]But they can always be better, hey! Few more grams/days for the dry hopping and tiny bit of darker malt (suggestions?) to fix the colour and not require me to use my brewers caramel.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Cheer to great beers! [/SIZE]


----------



## Nizmoose

Love your work. For the colour I'd just be going with a darker crystal and she should be good!


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Yep it's the same one you tried TB, still have some on tap!!! Realised I posted recipe in image format/not so friendly in previous post. Here it is below:
> 
> Roger Mild
> Mild
> Recipe Specs
> ----------------
> Batch Size (L): 24.0
> Total Grain (kg): 4.650
> Total Hops (g): 40.00
> Original Gravity (OG): 1.042 (°P): 10.5
> Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
> Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 3.74 %
> Colour (SRM): 19.6 (EBC): 38.5
> Bitterness (IBU): 24.1 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
> Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
> Boil Time (Minutes): 60
> 
> Grain Bill
> ----------------
> 2.000 kg Pale Malt (43.01%)
> 2.000 kg Vienna (43.01%)
> 0.500 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (10.75%)
> 0.150 kg Midnight Wheat (3.23%)
> 
> Hop Bill
> ----------------
> 20.0 g East Kent Golding Pellet (4.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
> 10.0 g Cascade Pellet (6.5% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
> 10.0 g Galaxy Pellet (11.9% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
> 
> Misc Bill
> ----------------
> 1/2tablet Irish Moss @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
> 1/2tsp Yeast Nutrient @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
> Single step Infusion at 67°C for 30 Minutes.
> Fermented at 18°C with Safale US-05
> 
> Notes
> ----------------
> Single infusion with mashout @ 78C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My grist was essentially based on the originals discussions in this thread and this http://cdn.aussiehomebrewer.com/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-21568-0-18225900-1425136634.jpg photo from the brewery then someone commenting it could be midnight wheat giving the colour.
> 
> I "rounded" my actual numbers to make it simpler, but had closer to 2.5% midnight wheat in the original recipe. Thinking if I backed it off from 3.2% to 2.5% it might get the colour closer. But so as to get the slightly more rich malty/caramel flavour to the grist, would simply subbing the standard Joe White Pale malt for Marris Otter perhaps be the difference needed or would it not be enough of a difference on it's own?





technobabble66 said:


> Hey DJ,
> that recipe you just posted is different to the one you posted earlier in the thread, @ post#60. So is this one above the one you actually brewed on the day?
> I based my suggested recipe on post#60 (namely the OG/EBC/IBU), so i might need to tweak it if it's not quite the one i tasted.
> 
> By the way, while trolling thru the thread looking for your earlier recipe post, i found Liam's post#49 which has a pic that mentions an extra toasted caramalt. What the hell did we end up deciding that was all about?? Was that meant to be the carapils? (which doesn't sound right). I feel a bit more confident it's basically going to be replicated by the Med crystal. Maybe that plus replacing the JW Ale with Simpsons/TF MO will be enough to nail it!
> 
> Hurry up and brew the next version!!


My apologies all! The above recipe I posted was NOT what I actually brewed, posted photos of or that technobabble has tasted. No idea why but I must have printed off the wrong recipe as I intended to brew the above. Really hope I ordered my grain based on the actual one I brewed otherwise I have no idea what happened LOL. As for the Caramalt I am unsure a decision was chosen, it could be the blackboard meant that a "Caramalt" is an extra toasted malt, rather than some special Cara-malt was chosen?

This is the recipe I brewed:

Roger Mild Mild
Recipe Specs 
---------------
Batch Size (L): 24.0 
Total Grain (kg): 4.100 
Total Hops (g): 40.00 
Original Gravity (OG): 1.037 (°P): 9.3 
Final Gravity (FG): 1.012 (°P): 3.1 
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 3.30 % 
Colour (SRM): 15.1 (EBC): 29.7 
Bitterness (IBU): 24.7 (Average - No Chill Adjusted) 
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70 Boil Time (Minutes): 60


Grain Bill 
---------------
1.800 kg Pale Malt (43.9%) 
1.800 kg Vienna (43.9%) 
0.400 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (9.76%) 
0.100 kg Midnight Wheat (2.44%)

Hop Bill 
---------------
20.0 g East Kent Golding Pellet (4.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L) 
10.0 g Cascade Pellet (6.5% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L) 
10.0 g Galaxy Pellet (11.9% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)

Misc Bill 
---------------
1.0 g Irish Moss @ 10 Minutes (Boil) 
1.0 g Yeast Nutrient @ 5 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 67°C for 30 Minutes. 
Fermented at 18°C with Safale US-05

Notes 
---------------
Single infusion with mashout @ 78C


Due to a low pre-boil gravity I actually boiled quite hard and overshot the OG, ended up with 1.044. I diluted this back to 1.037 in line with the recipe so this would have adjusted things, making me even more wary about upping malts too much for my next attempt. Ferment finished at 1.009 also, which was because my mash temp dropped also from 67.0C to 65.1C after 45mins. I'm brewing on my new rig now so attempt #2 will have a solid mash temp.

Sorry for the confusion, I believe my keg is getting low of this so will plan to brew this again before the end of the year so I have the second attempt taste results in the new year


----------



## technobabble66

AH HA !!!
That makes more sense, then. (e.g.: EBC & midnight wheat seems more like it)

FWIW, my tweaked recipe, which will be brewed when i next have a gap in my brewing schedule ... some time in a few years, at this rate:

*Ramjet Ale*
22.5 L
OG=1.040
FG=1.013
IBU=24.6
EBC=28.4
alc=3.8%

1.14kg (28.5%) MO (TFFM)
1.0kg (25%) Vienna (Wey)
1.0kg (25%) Wheat
0.4kg (10%) Munich 2 (Wey) 
0.2kg (5%) CaraPils
0.2kg (5%) Med Crystal (Simpsons)
0.06kg (1.5%) Midnight Wheat (Briess)

7g (0.3g/L) EKG (4.5%) @ FWH
10g (0.4g/L) EKG (4.5%) @ 20mins
15g (0.6g/L) Cascade (7.8%) @ 20mins
10g (0.4g/L) Galaxy (13.4%) @ 20mins
20g (0.8g/L) each of Cascade & Galaxy dry hop

(** 20mins additions are to be cube-hopped - should capture more of the hops elements)

Mash: 55/70/72/78 for 5/30/20/2
(as per manticle's suggestion. Might go with 55/71/78 for 5/30/2 for simplicity, or just 70/78 for 30/2)

plus some brewing salts, nutrients, etc.
yeast = US05, American Ale, 1272, etc.
---------------------------------------

Basically, i've recently tried a few beers that've made me think what i've ascribed to Munich may be Wheat, or a combo of Munich+Wheat. So i've basically upped the Wheat content a lot.
I then pulled out the choc malt as it's definitely not right, and replaced it with a little MW to achieve the colour.

In another version, i'd be tempted to drop the munich and test this fully - but i like Munich :lol: . If i did, i'd probably up the Carapils & Med Crystal, depending on how this one turns out.


One of us better get brewing chop chop to test out one of these tweaked versions, DJ!


----------



## CoxR

I had my first taste of the original recently and now I know why this thread has been going for this long. I am keen to hear how the latest attempts have turned out. I will brew this on the weekend maybe as I have not had a chance to brew for about 6 weeks.


----------



## technobabble66

I think my next brew will be a Rogers clone. I've slightly tweaked my recipe above to drop the wheat to 20% and up the Vienna to be 28.5% & MO to 30%. 
The yeast choice may be Edinburgh Ale 028, just because it's what I've currently got going. Hopefully brewed sometime over the next several days.


----------



## Nizmoose

I need to pull my shit together and brew my adjusted recipe and report back as well!


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Anyone had a recent crack or laid one of these down in FV (looking at you techno )? I've got it set in my scopes for the near future! Thinking of even utilising some fresh Citra i got recently to jazz it up as opposed to cloning it exactly, but keeping withthe malt bill, thoughts?


----------



## Black n Tan

Go for it DJ. I happened to be brewing at LC last week as I won a comp. I did ask some questions about the rogers and got some answers, although there seemed to be a little undecided on a few matters. The info I could glean was Barret Burston pale malt, munich, wheat, medium crystal and malt-derived caramel extract, 50% US and Australian cascade.


----------



## Nizmoose

Black n Tan said:


> Go for it DJ. I happened to be brewing at LC last week as I won a comp. I did ask some questions about the rogers and got some answers, although there seemed to be a little undecided on a few matters. The info I could glean was Barret Burston pale malt, munich, wheat, medium crystal and malt-derived caramel extract, 50% US and Australian cascade.


Quality pieces to the puzzle right there


----------



## technobabble66

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Anyone had a recent crack or laid one of these down in FV (looking at you techno )? I've got it set in my scopes for the near future! Thinking of even utilising some fresh Citra i got recently to jazz it up as opposed to cloning it exactly, but keeping withthe malt bill, thoughts?


Yeah. About that. Not brewed. No time to brew for the next 1-2 weeks. 
It'll still probably be the first cab off the rank, but it'll have to wait a little.


----------



## technobabble66

Black n Tan said:


> Go for it DJ. I happened to be brewing at LC last week as I won a comp. I did ask some questions about the rogers and got some answers, although there seemed to be a little undecided on a few matters. The info I could glean was Barret Burston pale malt, munich, wheat, medium crystal and malt-derived caramel extract, 50% US and Australian cascade.


Ah HA!! 
Exactly as we'd discussed, hey DJ! - has Munich and Med Crystal in it. 
I wonder if the caramel extract is more for colour or flavour?

Thanks v much for that info BnT. Invaluable!!


----------



## Black n Tan

technobabble66 said:


> Ah HA!!
> Exactly as we'd discussed, hey DJ! - has Munich and Med Crystal in it.
> I wonder if the caramel extract is more for colour or flavour?
> 
> Thanks v much for that info BnT. Invaluable!!


Well as I said there was a little vacillating on some of the details, so i would bank on all the details being 100% correct, but at least it came from some brewers. The caramel exact is more for colour was the impression I got, however I did get the idea that may have used dark candy syrup once upon a time. So I would use a little of that for colour adjustment.


----------



## technobabble66

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Anyone had a recent crack or laid one of these down in FV (looking at you techno )? I've got it set in my scopes for the near future! Thinking of even utilising some fresh Citra i got recently to jazz it up as opposed to cloning it exactly, but keeping withthe malt bill, thoughts?


Hey Deej, Back to this, what recipe will you go with then?
I'm still v happy with the look of the recipe in post #108 + the mods done in post #110. 
How's your's coming along?
WRT the hops, I'm sure the Citra would work well. I personally would be keen to see it done as a clone, just to see if we can nail it. 
However, I'll do mine as above anyway, so if yours is kinda similar it'll be interesting to gauge the difference Citra makes. 
Could you do a double batch? One with cube- or keg-hopped Citra and t'other without?


----------



## Black n Tan

Black n Tan said:


> Well as I said there was a little vacillating on some of the details, so i would bank on all the details being 100% correct, but at least it came from some brewers. The caramel exact is more for colour was the impression I got, however I did get the idea that may have used dark candy syrup once upon a time. So I would use a little of that for colour adjustment.


Sorry I meant to say that i would NOT be confident the details are 100% correct but at last it is a start.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

technobabble66 said:


> Hey Deej, Back to this, what recipe will you go with then?
> I'm still v happy with the look of the recipe in post #108 + the mods done in post #110.
> How's your's coming along?
> WRT the hops, I'm sure the Citra would work well. I personally would be keen to see it done as a clone, just to see if we can nail it.
> However, I'll do mine as above anyway, so if yours is kinda similar it'll be interesting to gauge the difference Citra makes.
> Could you do a double batch? One with cube- or keg-hopped Citra and t'other without?


I've got Simpsons MO that's quite old (but still OK) I'd like to use up so will probably got that for the base pale. Swap the Vienna for Munich and drop the amount (but by how much?), add some straight wheat, med crystal and the midnight wheat again as I think that provides the colour the extract would have otherwise.

As for hops, I need to use what's in my fridge so will go either EKG or Magnum for bittering and then Citra for the late hops.

Id like to nail the clone too and could definitely do a double batch (I'm actually yet to brew a single on my rig so haven't even confirmed it CAN handle singles OK), so perhaps cube hop one with the Cascade, the other with Citra. Problem is I only have 4 taps, so might have to bottle these as there is no way 50% of my taps are pouring mid strengths  

Interesting they didn't mention Galaxy to B&T, they must change it from time to time like other commercials, the barstards! Who's thinking of us poor home brewers that want to clone their beers just so we don't have to buy them???


----------



## technobabble66

All good. I'd consider keeping the Vienna to some extent. Your last one w lots of Vienna was pretty close. Most of the "base" flavour seemed right. And one of the LC boards I have a pic of definitely says it's got Vienna in it (fwiw). 

Yep, I'd go to the 2 diff versions cube-hopped. 

Could you brew a "1.75" batch, so to speak, and put 1 full batch into a FV (namely the Citra batch) and then the other 3/4 into another FV to dilute out to 3.8% alc? That way you end up with only one mid-strength and another full-strength Citra-hopped keg of awesomeness. 
Doable? Or too much faffing?


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

That's not such a bad idea, although I have nice fresh of Citra, Simcoe and Chinook. So going to brew up APA and IPA double batches. Thinking about that actually I probably don't NEED to use the Citra in this and should just stick to the clone. Too many brews to do, too little time and must resist drinking too much! Might check the freezer tonight see what other hops I can throw at this to free up some freezer space.....

Would Nelson Sauv work in this late?


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Oh also, ROGER on the Vienna. 





See what I did there.? ;-)


----------



## Black n Tan

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Interesting they didn't mention Galaxy to B&T, they must change it from time to time like other commercials, the barstards! Who's thinking of us poor home brewers that want to clone their beers just so we don't have to buy them???


They told me they change the hops in each of their beers every 6 months in line with Southern and Northern Hemisphere seasons and the quantities of hops available to them under contract. They are also allowed to import American Cascade cones: only brewers in Australia that can do this apparently.


----------



## technobabble66

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Would Nelson Sauv work in this late?


You could combo it with Cascade and call it Fat Roger's Yak...
Will probably work well. Just be careful with using too much. I made the mistake of using a fair bit of Nelson late and then dry hopping with it also. It might've been something else, but that beer was rather odd and took 6 months to be drinkable (ie: I think it took that long basically for the Nelson to fade). 
Fwiw, I'd guess the full strength version will be more of an Amber ale rather than an APA so you could go either malt or hops focused, or both!!


----------



## technobabble66

Hey Deej. If you're reeeeally clever you actually do 3 versions. 
Brew it as a high/full strength IPA/RIPA for "1 batch" (7.6%), put a 3/4 batch into another cube for an APA/AAA (5.7%) and a "1/2 batch" into a third FV for the 3.8% clone. So you actually start with a "2.25 batch". Cube hop differently, of course! 
Now there's a challenge for you & your spiffy setup [emoji6][emoji41]


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

*Roger Mild MKII*


Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 21.00 l
Boil Size: 29.60 l
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 26.00 l
Final Bottling Vol: 19.00 l
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage
Date: 24 Jan 2016
Equipment: 3V RIMS Rig - Single Batch
Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 89.3 %

*Ingredients **Amt* *Name* *Type* *%/IBU*
1.80 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) 50.0 %
0.75 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) 20.8 %
0.75 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) 20.8 %
0.15 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) 4.2 %
0.15 kg Wheat, Midnight Roasted (837.3 EBC) 4.2 %

20.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [4.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min 10.5 IBUs 
15.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min 3.7 IBUs CUBE HOPPED
15.00 g Galaxy [13.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min 7.0 IBUs CUBE HOPPED


0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins)
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins) 

1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35.49 ml] 


*Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color*
Est Original Gravity: 1.040 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 3.7 %
Bitterness: 21.3 IBUs
Est Color: 27.5 EBC

Mash Profile
Mash Name: English Mild
Sparge Water: 15.69 l
Sparge Temperature: 78.0 C
Total Grain Weight: 3.60 kg
Grain Temperature: 20.0 C
Tun Temperature: 20.0 C
Mash PH: 5.20

*Mash Steps **Name* *Description* *Step Temperature* *Step Time*
Mash In Add 10.69 l of water at 78.1 C 70.0 C 30 min
Mash Out Add 9.82 l of water at 88.3 C 78.0 C 5 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 15.69 l water at 78.0 C


Mash Notes: Full body for lighter ABV% beers




What are your thoughts on this (apologies for the shitty reading, haven't worked out an easy way to copy beersmith recipes onto the forum as text)? I'm not sure about the actual wheat addition and whether to. As you mentioned techno the grist tasted very close my last crack, unsure if the wheat will fill it out too much, being mindful that my mash temps were lower last time and will be actually 7degC higher than what I actually mashed at last time (my FG was 1.009).

I can knock this out tomorrow night. I'm keen to try a single batch on my rig so not going to double or anything at this stage, but keen to crack the original!

Side note: I can't work out how to control the estimated mash efficiency. 75% brewhouse seems to get me almost spot on every brew on my rig, if I deviate either side I've run into troubles, so I leave that fixed but it seems to wildly affect the mash efficiency (79% to 90% variation)... does the types of grain %'s, mash temp and pH (which I don't control) affect the mash efficiency % in beersmith?


----------



## technobabble66

Hey Deej. Quick reply as I'm o/s. 
The recipe looks good!
The hops I can't critique as I don't have any other recipes (namely you're prev one) to compare with. I think your prev hops bill was pretty much bang on, maybe just more dry hopping to finish it off. 

With the grains, I see you've gone with the Munich and have dropped the wheat. As prev mentioned, I suspect both are in the original. However, I'd certainly be keen to test this by trying a version with just Munich & no wheat, as yours is. I'd also guess there should be 100-200g Med Crystal in the original. Again, research is best done one step at a time, so maybe try yours as is. I personally are too impatient for that, so I'd do all the changes at once Munich, wheat & Crystal. 
Basically, I'll try mine as per one of my last posts above, so maybe you do yours as is and we can compare these 2 version.


----------



## technobabble66

In terms of mash, hard to say, but I'd say mash temp and pH make a huge difference. Crush size also. Grain to liquor ratio to some extent. 
Having said that I get a bit of variance also. ~82-85%


----------



## technobabble66

Edit to ^^: not sure I understood your question. Maybe someone familiar with beer smith needs to answer that as I use ianh's spreadsheet. But I'd say if you're repeating the same or similar recipe, you should be getting similar results. How close to the estimate are you getting with your actual results?


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

technobabble66 said:


> Hey Deej. Quick reply as I'm o/s.
> The recipe looks good!
> The hops I can't critique as I don't have any other recipes (namely you're prev one) to compare with. I think your prev hops bill was pretty much bang on, maybe just more dry hopping to finish it off.
> 
> With the grains, I see you've gone with the Munich and have dropped the wheat. As prev mentioned, I suspect both are in the original. However, I'd certainly be keen to test this by trying a version with just Munich & no wheat, as yours is. I'd also guess there should be 100-200g Med Crystal in the original. Again, research is best done one step at a time, so maybe try yours as is. I personally are too impatient for that, so I'd do all the changes at once Munich, wheat & Crystal.
> Basically, I'll try mine as per one of my last posts above, so maybe you do yours as is and we can compare these 2 version.


CRYSTAL!!! I rushed, had planned on putting it in, modified recipe below! I'll still keep Wheat out so we can compare batches. Also deciding to add the Galaxy Hop Shot (courtesy of Hop Dealz Aus) into this to try it's effect.



technobabble66 said:


> Edit to ^^: not sure I understood your question. Maybe someone familiar with beer smith needs to answer that as I use ianh's spreadsheet. But I'd say if you're repeating the same or similar recipe, you should be getting similar results. How close to the estimate are you getting with your actual results?


Beersmith calcs my mash recipe itself, which ends up varying from 79 to 90% each batch and I can't seem to work out what changes it. I've kept my BREWHOUSE efficiency set to 75%, but something modifies the mash efficiency unbeknownst to me. I'm getting close to my numbers recently by keeping my brewhouse efficiency set to 75%. But don't understand how my mash efficiency can change if I am not changing anything I am doing? Is it simply the types of grains (ie. some roasted won't have as much extract from them so reduce the mash efficiency)?




*Roger Mild MKII*


Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 21.00 l
Boil Size: 29.60 l
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 26.00 l
Final Bottling Vol: 19.00 l
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage
Date: 24 Jan 2016
Equipment: 3V RIMS Rig - Single Batch
Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 89.3 %

*Ingredients* *Amt* *Name* *Type* *#* *%/IBU*
1.50 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) 43.6 %
0.75 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) 21.8 %
0.75 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) 21.8 %
0.17 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) 4.9 %
0.17 kg Crystal, Medium (Simpsons) (108.3 EBC) 4.9 %
0.10 kg Wheat, Midnight Roasted (837.3 EBC) 2.9 %

20.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [4.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min 10.7 IBUs 
15.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min 3.8 IBUs
15.00 g Galaxy [13.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min 7.1 IBUs
10.00 g Galaxy [11.90 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days 0.0 IBUs HOP LIQUID SHOT STRAIGHT INTO KEG (mL's TBC)


0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) 
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins) 

1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35.49 ml] 



*Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color*
Est Original Gravity: 1.038 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 3.5 %
Bitterness: 21.6 IBUs
Est Color: 24.3 EBC

Mash Profile
Mash Name: English Mild
Sparge Water: 16.45 l
Sparge Temperature: 78.0 C
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE
Total Grain Weight: 3.44 kg
Grain Temperature: 20.0 C
Tun Temperature: 20.0 C
Mash PH: 5.20

*Mash Steps **Name* *Description* *Step Temperature* *Step Time*
Mash In Add 10.22 l of water at 78.1 C 70.0 C 30 min
Mash Out Add 9.38 l of water at 88.3 C 78.0 C 5 min
Sparge: Fly sparge with 16.45 l water at 78.0 C


Mash Notes: Full body for lighter ABV% beers

*Notes*
Dry hop Galaxy with Liquid Hop Shot (x mL's into keg)


----------



## technobabble66

Looks much better [emoji106][emoji4]
Yeah, I wondered where the crystal went [emoji57]
I'd maybe up your midnight wheat by 10-50g to get the EBCs back up ~27, however much that needs. 
Hops look great. If that goes wrong, we can blame Yob [emoji41]

No idea about beersmith. Could it be you're constraining your calc at the wrong point? ie: by setting the brew house efficiency at 75% you're forcing BS to estimate the mash efficiency required to hit that BH efficiency of 75%. 
So in that case, you should be setting the mash eff and letting it estimate your BH eff; rather than the other way around which is what you're currently doing. Again, I don't use BS so I could be arse around with that guess.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Thanks mate, appreciate you responding whilst overseas!

I've shaved some EBCs off as I found mine a touch darker than Rogers side by side. Granted I boiled too hard and diluted last time but will just see how it turns out at the current recipe (more cos I cbf adjusting and have ordered the midnight wheat already ).

I've only tried the hop shots in glasses, so keen to see the effect in a keg and give it the few days time to 'settle in' which appears to smooth out the hop flavour/aroma.

As for Beersmith, it calcs based on brew house so it's probably fine, just 89.3% mash efficiency seems quite high? I'll report back tomorrow how the brew goes


----------



## technobabble66

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Thanks mate, appreciate you responding whilst overseas!


No worries, dude, this is THAT important!! [emoji6]

Jebus, you're ordering midnight wheat?! I'll bring some over next time. I have kilos, and use 50-100g per batch. 

I'll make mine ASAP on my return & we'll compare [emoji41]

Ps: 90% mash eff is pretty damn high - You better be sparging like a bastard!!


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Can we pretend that I haven't actually brewed this one? Yes, let's do that.......

Absolute clusterf*ck of a brew day. Let's just say if you get to the point you are almost going to ring the electrical network provider to ask if they have switched your active/neutral phases around, causing your homebrew pumps to spin anticlockwise, you're having a bad day. *cough* it was just a bad airlock *cough*

So my mash temp dropped to 50-55C over an hour before I had the airlock sorted. Ramped straight up to 70C and held for 30 mins just to make myself feel better. Rest of the night went ok, although ended up with slightly more volume and only 1.034... Think my boil off rate needs some tuning. Oh well I have a cube of this, albeit quite departed from the intended recipe/mash schedule. I intended to be done by 10pm and only just finished cleaning up now, yikes.


----------



## technobabble66

What brew? I don't see any brew. 
Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along. 
[emoji6]


----------



## technobabble66

Stoopid double post. 

Commiserations!!


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

In a better mood today!

I did taste the finished wort and was quite bitter, probably due to the lower ABV and slight increase in IBUs obviously. By time I cubes the wort was at 78-80C so won't get much bitterness from the galaxy and cascade, hopefully it turns out to a nice drop but I WILL brew this again and nail the mash temp for testing purposes.


----------



## technobabble66

Finally having a go at this attempt, though it's going to be cubed (re: 20min additions) so it'll be a while before it gets to drinking:

*Ramjet Ale*
22.5 L
OG=1.040
FG=1.013 (75% atten.)
IBU=24.1
EBC=21.3
alc=3.8%

1.155kg (28.9%) MO (TFFM)
1.15kg (28.8%) Vienna (Wey)
0.8kg (20%) Wheat (Wey)
0.4kg (10%) Munich 2 (Wey) 
0.2kg (5%) CaraPils (Wey)
0.2kg (5%) Med Crystal (Simpsons)
0.025kg (0.6%) Midnight Wheat (Briess)
0.07kg (1.8%) Acidulated (Wye)

10g (0.3g/L) EKG (4.5%) @ FWH
3g (0.4g/L) EKG (4.5%) @ 20mins
15g (0.6g/L) Cascade (7.8%) @ 20mins
10g (0.4g/L) Galaxy (13.4%) @ 20mins
20g (0.8g/L) of Cascade & 15g of Galaxy dry hop

(** 20mins additions are to be cube-hopped - should capture more of the hops elements)

Mash: 70/72/78 for 30/15/2
(slightly as per manticle's suggestion. ditched the 55°C step to make it easier, and i wasn't sure how long it'd take me to get to 70°C from 55°C, so i might've had the beta-amylase going at it for too long)
EDIT: this was instead kinda ripped off manticle's mash schedule for a mild ale - he's an endless fount of pilferable info, that guy! :lol: 

1.3g CaSO4 + 2.5g CaCl + 1.3g MgSO4 into Mash
1.1g CaSO4 + 2.1g CaCl + 1.1g MgSO4 +0.3g Citric acid into Sparge
0.5g CaSO4 + 2.5g CaCl + 1.3g MgSO4 into Boil

yeast = US05, American Ale, 1272, etc.
... though i have a batch of WLP-028 Scottish Ale ready to go at the moment...
---------------------------------------

Another largish change was to drop the Midnight Wheat a fair bit to drop the colour down from ~28 EBC to ~21 EBC. I did this because i had one of my other beers last night (an APA) and it was almost identical in colour to the Rogers i had next to it, and it was meant to come in at 21.1 EBC.

Edit: Mash when in at 68°C for no apparent reason, so a few minutes getting it up to 70°C. Then when i returned after the 30mins was up, it'd dropped back down to 68.5°C. Currently sitting at 72°C for 20mins...


----------



## technobabble66

Brew day cockup was a large boil over as I stepped away for a few minutes. 
Green crud everywhere, from the 10g of EKG used for the FWH. 
Tossed in my remaining 5g EKG into the boil to compensate. Just need to adjust my 20min additions now. 
Fingers crossed!

Goddammit !!! [emoji30]


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

technobabble66 said:


> Finally having a go at this attempt, though it's going to be cubed (re: 20min additions) so it'll be a while before it gets to drinking:
> 
> *Ramjet Ale*
> 22.5 L
> OG=1.040
> FG=1.013 (75% atten.)
> IBU=24.1
> EBC=21.3
> alc=3.8%
> 
> 1.155kg (28.9%) MO (TFFM)
> 1.15kg (28.8%) Vienna (Wey)
> 0.8kg (20%) Wheat (Wey)
> 0.4kg (10%) Munich 2 (Wey)
> 0.2kg (5%) CaraPils (Wey)
> 0.2kg (5%) Med Crystal (Simpsons)
> 0.025kg (0.6%) Midnight Wheat (Briess)
> 0.07kg (1.8%) Acidulated (Wye)
> 
> 10g (0.3g/L) EKG (4.5%) @ FWH
> 3g (0.4g/L) EKG (4.5%) @ 20mins
> 15g (0.6g/L) Cascade (7.8%) @ 20mins
> 10g (0.4g/L) Galaxy (13.4%) @ 20mins
> 20g (0.8g/L) of Cascade & 15g of Galaxy dry hop
> 
> (** 20mins additions are to be cube-hopped - should capture more of the hops elements)
> 
> Mash: 70/72/78 for 30/15/2
> (slightly as per manticle's suggestion. ditched the 55°C step to make it easier, and i wasn't sure how long it'd take me to get to 70°C from 55°C, so i might've had the beta-amylase going at it for too long)
> EDIT: this was instead kinda ripped off manticle's mash schedule for a mild ale - he's an endless fount of pilferable info, that guy! :lol:
> 
> 1.3g CaSO4 + 2.5g CaCl + 1.3g MgSO4 into Mash
> 1.1g CaSO4 + 2.1g CaCl + 1.1g MgSO4 +0.3g Citric acid into Sparge
> 0.5g CaSO4 + 2.5g CaCl + 1.3g MgSO4 into Boil
> 
> yeast = US05, American Ale, 1272, etc.
> ... though i have a batch of WLP-028 Scottish Ale ready to go at the moment...
> ---------------------------------------
> 
> Another largish change was to drop the Midnight Wheat a fair bit to drop the colour down from ~28 EBC to ~21 EBC. I did this because i had one of my other beers last night (an APA) and it was almost identical in colour to the Rogers i had next to it, and it was meant to come in at 21.1 EBC.
> 
> Edit: Mash when in at 68°C for no apparent reason, so a few minutes getting it up to 70°C. Then when i returned after the 30mins was up, it'd dropped back down to 68.5°C. Currently sitting at 72°C for 20mins...





technobabble66 said:


> Brew day cockup was a large boil over as I stepped away for a few minutes.
> Green crud everywhere, from the 10g of EKG used for the FWH.
> Tossed in my remaining 5g EKG into the boil to compensate. Just need to adjust my 20min additions now.
> Fingers crossed!
> 
> Goddammit !!! [emoji30]


Ahh nooooooooooes. But hey at least you got a cube in the end  albeit going to be hard to warranty your recipe from a hops perspective. So we both cocked up our most recent attempts....... Looks like will need to brew it again, how about a joint brew at my place for the next one and go a cube each? Two of us watching the brew, what could go wrong!? Haha

If it's any consolation, I was bottling a super dark (diesel black) stout last night which was smooth sailing until I knocked a full longneck with the cap lightly sitting on top awaiting capping off my table onto the concrete floor, assumed it smashed and picked up the other two bottle That were spilling on the table, only to realise the thick coopers longneck did not smash and the lovely stout was spilling out over the floor, my carpet tiles, clean kegs and bottle storage cardboard boxes. Was a fair cleanup :-(


----------



## mofox1

technobabble66 said:


> Brew day cockup was a large boil over as I stepped away for a few minutes.
> Green crud everywhere, from the 10g of EKG used for the FWH.
> Tossed in my remaining 5g EKG into the boil to compensate. Just need to adjust my 20min additions now.
> Fingers crossed!
> 
> Goddammit !!! [emoji30]


And it will probably be the best (never to be replicated) Rogers clone ever.


----------



## technobabble66

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> Ahh nooooooooooes. But hey at least you got a cube in the end  albeit going to be hard to warranty your recipe from a hops perspective. So we both cocked up our most recent attempts....... Looks like will need to brew it again, how about a joint brew at my place for the next one and go a cube each? Two of us watching the brew, what could go wrong!? Haha
> 
> If it's any consolation, I was bottling a super dark (diesel black) stout last night which was smooth sailing until I knocked a full longneck with the cap lightly sitting on top awaiting capping off my table onto the concrete floor, assumed it smashed and picked up the other two bottle That were spilling on the table, only to realise the thick coopers longneck did not smash and the lovely stout was spilling out over the floor, my carpet tiles, clean kegs and bottle storage cardboard boxes. Was a fair cleanup :-(


Noooooooooooooooooo!!!
Waste of lovely stout PLUS a terrible mess to cleanup/unstain. Not good!

Hopefully between the 2 versions we've done we'll be able to nail it for next time. So a double batch at yours might be just the ticket! 
I'm sure those kegs of yours won't tempt a visit from Mr Cockup....

I reckon the main question that remains is whether we stick with the Munich. I think it'll make a nice beer, but I'm having doubts that it's in the original. The one I had on Saturday seemed to lack those deeper maltier elements that Munich contributes to. 
Oh, and getting the hops right. Minor technicality. 

We shall see!!


----------



## Rosscoe

danestead said:


> Surely they need some crystal in there to achieve the colour that it is


Since when?

Glad you fellas are enjoying playing around with this one so much. Trying to purely replicate colour over flavour I've found can be a bit of a trap, but I can't recommend a spot of caraaroma and a good decoction mash highly enough for a shot at something like this.

Enjoy and good brewing


----------



## kwinchee

DJ_L3ThAL said:


> CRYSTAL!!! I rushed, had planned on putting it in, modified recipe below! I'll still keep Wheat out so we can compare batches. Also deciding to add the Galaxy Hop Shot (courtesy of Hop Dealz Aus) into this to try it's effect.
> 
> 
> Beersmith calcs my mash recipe itself, which ends up varying from 79 to 90% each batch and I can't seem to work out what changes it. I've kept my BREWHOUSE efficiency set to 75%, but something modifies the mash efficiency unbeknownst to me. I'm getting close to my numbers recently by keeping my brewhouse efficiency set to 75%. But don't understand how my mash efficiency can change if I am not changing anything I am doing? Is it simply the types of grains (ie. some roasted won't have as much extract from them so reduce the mash efficiency)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Roger Mild MKII*
> 
> 
> Type: All Grain
> Batch Size: 21.00 l
> Boil Size: 29.60 l
> Boil Time: 60 min
> End of Boil Vol: 26.00 l
> Final Bottling Vol: 19.00 l
> Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage
> Date: 24 Jan 2016
> Equipment: 3V RIMS Rig - Single Batch
> Efficiency: 75.00 %
> Est Mash Efficiency: 89.3 %
> 
> *Ingredients* *Amt* *Name* *Type* *#* *%/IBU*
> 1.50 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) 43.6 %
> 0.75 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) 21.8 %
> 0.75 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) 21.8 %
> 0.17 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) 4.9 %
> 0.17 kg Crystal, Medium (Simpsons) (108.3 EBC) 4.9 %
> 0.10 kg Wheat, Midnight Roasted (837.3 EBC) 2.9 %
> 
> 20.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [4.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min 10.7 IBUs
> 15.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min 3.8 IBUs
> 15.00 g Galaxy [13.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min 7.1 IBUs
> 10.00 g Galaxy [11.90 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days 0.0 IBUs HOP LIQUID SHOT STRAIGHT INTO KEG (mL's TBC)
> 
> 
> 0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins)
> 0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins)
> 
> 1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35.49 ml]
> 
> 
> 
> *Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color*
> Est Original Gravity: 1.038 SG
> Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
> Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 3.5 %
> Bitterness: 21.6 IBUs
> Est Color: 24.3 EBC
> 
> Mash Profile
> Mash Name: English Mild
> Sparge Water: 16.45 l
> Sparge Temperature: 78.0 C
> Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE
> Total Grain Weight: 3.44 kg
> Grain Temperature: 20.0 C
> Tun Temperature: 20.0 C
> Mash PH: 5.20
> 
> *Mash Steps **Name* *Description* *Step Temperature* *Step Time*
> Mash In Add 10.22 l of water at 78.1 C 70.0 C 30 min
> Mash Out Add 9.38 l of water at 88.3 C 78.0 C 5 min
> Sparge: Fly sparge with 16.45 l water at 78.0 C
> 
> 
> Mash Notes: Full body for lighter ABV% beers
> 
> *Notes*
> Dry hop Galaxy with Liquid Hop Shot (x mL's into keg)


Bravo!!!! This is an amazing recipe I just used 100g of Chocolate Wheat in place of the midnight 
And Brewed it in a BIAB rig with recirc, I didn't adjust the grain amounts due to laziness
And I ran out of galaxy so didn't do the liquid shot/dryhop, which definitely would have helped finish it off

So stoked with this brew


----------



## earle

Glad it worked out for you with the choc wheat. I brewed a very close version of this on Saturday but with 100g choc wheat as well. Very much looking forward to trying it. Thanks to the guys who have put is a lot of work on this one.


----------



## meathead

I'm going to have a crack at this on the weekend in the Grainfather.
What temp should I mash at and for how long?
What temp should I mash out at and for how long?
What temp should I sparge at?
Thanks in advance


----------



## Barge

*Mash Steps **Name* *Description* *Step Temperature* *Step Time*
Mash In Add 10.69 l of water at 78.1 C 70.0 C 30 min
Mash Out Add 9.82 l of water at 88.3 C 78.0 C 5 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 15.69 l water at 78.0 



Doing this on the weekend as well. Good luck!


----------



## meathead

Sorry still confused

Mash In Add 10.69 l of water at 78.1 C 70.0 C 30 min
Mash Out Add 9.82 l of water at 88.3 C 78.0 C 5 min

Am I mashing at 70c for 30 mins in 10.69l of water and adding 9.82l of water which is 88c to bring temp to 78c for 5 mins so total mash time is 35mins?


----------



## Barge

Yes. Although I will probably mash for 45 min with a 10 min mashout when i do it.


----------



## technobabble66

So your target temps are:
1) Mash In, 70°C, 30mins
2) Mash Out, 78°C, 5 mins

To hit the Mash In target, DJ threw his grain into 10.7L of water that was already at 78°C, then after 30 mins added 9.8L of water that was at 88°C to hit the Mash Out temp.

Does that make sense, meathead? I think what you wrote in post #149 looks correct.


FWIW, it's only 30 mins for the main mash step in order to compensate for a low OG, which would typically produce a thin mouthfeel. Keeping the main mash step high _and_ quick is a trick to try to maximise the mouthfeel.

This is to limit the beta-amylase activity. Beta is the quicker of the 2 amylases, so 30 mins is long enough for it to do a lot of work producing fermentable saccharides, but is short enough to still ensure a fairly high percentage of unfermentable oligosaccharides are produced/maintained to produce the effect of a regular/thicker mouthfeel. Allowing a longer time basically gives the beta amylase too much time, even at a temp which it starts to denature at, to rip up too many of the unfermentable saccharides such that the beer will be thinner than desired.

So the short time is meant to be for a good reason. Not saying it's 100% necessary. ... But maybe 90% ... B)


----------



## Barge

Good to know. I'm worried that the high mash temp, combined with the 10% crystal is enough to produce the mouthfeel, without the short mash time. 

My other problem is that it's my first run on my 1V system so I have no idea what efficiency I will get. I'm aiming for the same mash efficiency as my BIAB system but if it's much higher I am prepared to just brew a 4.5-5% beer. Rogers big brother, if you will.

Also, if the OG is on target I was thinking of slightly underpitching some S04, which has a tendency to wuss out early. This will help with FG.

Aggghhh. Too many variables changing!!

Okay, I'll test the gravity after 30min and if it's much higher than expected I'll do a longer mash. Otherwise I'll proceed as planned and use US05 regardless.


----------



## meathead

Thanks lads much appreciated. 
I'll post numbers Sunday


----------



## technobabble66

Barge, Option B is to simply add tap water (at least for us here in Melbourne) or distilled water before you pitch you yeast to bring you OG down if your efficiency is too high. 
I find it's easier to bring the OG down like this rather than raise it up if you undershoot (by boiling for longer). So I'd suggest adjust your efficiency rating to err on the side of lower. 
Eg: my efficiency is normally ~80-85%, for this I set it to 75%. Admittedly I also cube, so I just get it down to the volume to fit in a cube, then when I'll pitch it I'll double check the OG and add tap water if needed. 
I wouldn't stress about you FG - if you do 20-30 mins at 70-72*C your FG should still finish fairly high. 

Don't stress - the variables can easily be adjusted for; or like you said, just go with however it turns out. I guess the only thing you really might need to adjust is the hops to suit your OG, but with the amounts we've got here you even have a bit of leeway if it's a little high or low.


----------



## technobabble66

FWIW, I feel i should give credit where due: that high & short mash concept is what Manticle developed with his Dark Mild recipe.
It was through discussions with him that i came to understand what was the better strategy & why it's done for a low OG beer like this. I'm guessing he read the schiessen out of the topic initially, but seemed to do a fair bit of experimenting along the way to nail it. So i blame him for forcing this upon us. 
h34r:



FWIW, I wonder if along with all the other advice listed to help newbie brewers, there might be a list of certain styles to try, to hone their understanding of certain elements of brewing.
The basic reading the accompanies all that should help integrate a good understanding of the fundamentals, plus varied experience with pushing these elements a bit. Plus a good cellar afterwards :icon_cheers:
Eg:
start with a Golden Ale (DSGA, of course), 
then an APA (bit more hoppiness, coping with IBUs),
then an English bitter (simple recipes can work wonders, & the way malts can shine),
an IPA (Advanced hoppiness and IBUs),
a Belgian ale (yeast funkiness),
and a Mild of some sort (to hone understanding of how varying mash schedules can alter/compensate.
And everyone does a stout at some point also.
Maybe finish off with an Imperial something.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Then SOURS!!!!! =D


----------



## Barge

Well it wasn't a complete fuckup!

Maiden run of my new ardbir controlled 1V setup. Asked for a coarse crush from craftbrewer to avoid a stuck sparge. O.G. came under my usual with a mash efficiency of only 70%. Only 3 points under though so I'm pretty happy. 

Went with a 30 minute mash @ 70 and 5 min mashout @ 80. Looks pretty dark but I'll wait until I see it in the glass.

I've got a couple of days off next week so I might go again with a finer crush. I'll have to ask them what spacing they used. just out of interest.


----------



## meathead

OK lads here's the situation

Currently I have 28 litres pre boil at 1022 (checked 3 times)

Do I add some dme and if so how much?


----------



## meathead

OK I let the sample cool and it's actually 1028

So will boil for 75 mins instead of 60


----------



## technobabble66

You might be jumping the gun, meathead.

28 L at 1.028 should end up as 21 L at 1.037.
That's close to right. So either take it as a tiny bit lower, or boil it down to 20L instead.

That's assuming your target vol was 21L, of course.


----------



## meathead

Not my best brew day but not my worst either.

Should have dust gone with GF water volumes instead of being clever

SG ended up at 1031 after adding 200 grams ldme

21L into fermenter

In hindsight should have boiled longer. 

Soon see how she tastes.


----------



## technobabble66

These Rogers clones are cursed with brewday disasters. 

Tbh, it sounds like you got off lightly. [emoji57]
Or at least you've hopefully done a good job correcting it. 

Oh I just re-read your post. Was that 1.031 at 20*C into the FV?? If so, that kinda sucks - that's quite low! Maybe chuck some more LDME in if so.


----------



## AJS2154

technobabble66 said:


> These Rogers clones are cursed with brewday disasters.
> 
> Tbh, it sounds like you got off lightly. [emoji57]
> Or at least you've hopefully done a good job correcting it.
> 
> Oh I just re-read your post. Was that 1.031 at 20*C into the FV?? If so, that kinda sucks - that's quite low! Maybe chuck some more LDME in if so.


Hey Techno......isn't that why you make your invert sugars? Just whack a bit of that in. Instant OG.

I made a Rogers clone today, subbed in some carared in place of the medium crystal and also added 200g of my dark invert sugar. In the FV now. Might be interesting.

Waiting is always the hardest part.


----------



## meathead

technobabble66 said:


> These Rogers clones are cursed with brewday disasters.
> Tbh, it sounds like you got off lightly. [emoji57]
> Or at least you've hopefully done a good job correcting it.
> Oh I just re-read your post. Was that 1.031 at 20*C into the FV?? If so, that kinda sucks - that's quite low! Maybe chuck some more LDME in if so.


So can I put more LDME in now?
If so how much?
Should I dissolve it first in boiling water then cool?


----------



## technobabble66

Meathead, yep you can put it in now. 
Have you pitched your yeast yet? 
If not, then dissolve in some boiled water and throw it in. If you've already pitched then let it cool down to FV temp first. 
If you're worried about sanitation maybe boil the water + LDME mix for several mins. 

Not sure how much LDME to add. Run it thru ianh's spreadsheet. Should be 200-400g at a guess.


----------



## technobabble66

AJS2154 said:


> Hey Techno......isn't that why you make your invert sugars? Just whack a bit of that in. Instant OG.
> 
> I made a Rogers clone today, subbed in some carared in place of the medium crystal and also added 200g of my dark invert sugar. In the FV now. Might be interesting.
> 
> Waiting is always the hardest part.


Sounds great AJ. The dark invert sugar should replace the caramel flavour from the Ned crystal perhaps, plus the maltiness from the carared. Should be v interesting!

Instant OG - one of the benefits of the Candi Syrup! Doesn't do much for the FG though [emoji6]


----------



## meathead

technobabble66 said:


> Meathead, yep you can put it in now.
> Have you pitched your yeast yet?
> If not, then dissolve in some boiled water and throw it in. If you've already pitched then let it cool down to FV temp first.
> If you're worried about sanitation maybe boil the water + LDME mix for several mins.
> Not sure how much LDME to add. Run it thru ianh's spreadsheet. Should be 200-400g at a guess.


Thanks for that, I've got 253 grams and I boiled in a cup of water.


----------



## earle

earle said:


> Glad it worked out for you with the choc wheat. I brewed a very close version of this on Saturday but with 100g choc wheat as well. Very much looking forward to trying it. Thanks to the guys who have put is a lot of work on this one.


Now kegged and drinking very well. Will have to get an actual Rogers from the bottle shop to do a side by side.


----------



## earle

Side by side tasting.

Colour is spot on. Better head retention on mine. The commercial example has a bit more residual sweetness and a little more hop character. If I was trying to get closer I would perhaps increase the crystal and dry hop a little more.


----------



## technobabble66

Great to see the comparison, earle!
Could you throw up your recipe?
What was your calc'd EBC?
Did the roasty element of the choc malt come through as a difference?


----------



## technobabble66

Also, do you think the "Crystal" element the commercial one has could be from EKG in higher levels?


----------



## earle

I don't think too much roasty flavour came through from the choc wheat but it could have made the difference in sweetness. On the hops and sweetness, I would be adding more hops before adding any more crystal so your suggestion could be on the mark.

I'll have to get into beersmith on my tablet to get the EBC but the recipe from a pdf for a 23l batch is:

1.65kg Maris Otter
0.8kg Munich II
0.8kg Vienna
0.2kg Caramel/Crystal
0.2kg Carapils
0.1kg Choc Wheat

Mashed at 70C for 30 min, then mashed out to 74C

10g Liberty (4%) AT 60min (4.5IBU)
15g Cascade (5.5%) at 20min (5.6IBU)
15g Galaxy (14%) at 20min (14.3IBU)

I reckon a dry hop with Cascade is the next for me.


----------



## technobabble66

Just ran the numbers in ianh's spreadsheet.
Should be OG=1.037, FG=1.012, 27 IBUs, 30.6 EBC, 3.5% alc

Hmmm, looks like mine's gonna be a little pale then.
I think mine is calc'd at 21 EBC. Maybe i'll steep a few grams of Midnight wheat to crank it up a fraction closer to 30...

Did you ferment it out using US-05?


EDIT: i think i might steep & boil 25g extra midnight wheat to get the colour up to 26.5 EBC, when i go to pitch my yeasties.


----------



## earle

The more I think about it the more I would be tempted to back off the choc wheat in the mash, maybe to about 60g. Then maybe a cold steep of the other 40g to add colour.

Yep, US05


----------



## technobabble66

Was inspired to finally get mine into a FV.

Did the 25g Midnight Wheat steep thing using 500mL at 70°C (took 2 efforts to do the crush - first time thru the coffee blender turned it into fine powder - how on earth did NickJD do it?!?) for 30mins, then boiled down to ~200mL. Brings my recipe to a total of 50g MW.
Rehydrated & pitched the US-05 at ~23:00, so i'll see if it's cranking along tmrw. Hydro sample (OG=1.043 (of ~20L), so added 1.5L to hopefully get it to OG=1.040) tasted about right, but with a slightly strong harsh hoppiness, so i'm hoping the fermentation mellows this a little.

Fingers crossed!


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Is choc wheat and midnight wheat the same thing?


----------



## Mardoo

No


----------



## technobabble66

~200 EBC difference, from memory


----------



## earle

Just happens that I got a 1/4 sack of choc wheat in a bulk buy a while back so it goes in everything that requires a dark grain until its gone


----------



## Dan Pratt

Don't bother with the cold steep, just run it separately through the mill a few times to make it nice and fine and add to the mashout.


----------



## technobabble66

No issue with tannins if too fine?


----------



## Dan Pratt

technobabble66 said:


> No issue with tannins if too fine?


not that I'm aware of. With my Black IPA I triple mill about 700g of black malt and add to mashout for colour and slight flavour, no issue's. the mashout temo for me though is at 74c these days, ive doen it at 78c also and nothing like that noticed.


----------



## LorriSanga

technobabble66 said:


> No issue with tannins if too fine?


Jamil recommends grinding Special Roast to a dust for the desired colour and flavor in his Dry Stout.


----------



## technobabble66

Ah right. Good to know. 
I tossed the first lot of 25g because it was powder & I thought I'd heard/read if the grain is powdered the tannins will extract too significantly. I guess if it's roast barley or midnight wheat it's so roasted it won't matter.


----------



## CoxR

Going to put one down this weekend, based on the recipe Earle posted as I have no midnight so choc malt will go in.
I will have to sub what ever I have on hand for bittering also as I have no EKG.
*edit* As long as it's close the wife will be happy as it is her favorite beer.


----------



## CoxR

Bigger, no EKG in the freezer. I have some Sazz. Hallertau MF or should I just use Magnum


----------



## technobabble66

I'd go the Hall Mitt. Might cover the floral/nectar aspect of EKG.


----------



## CoxR

Done with MF, Brew went smooth enough missed gravity by 3 points though I might need to look at the beersmith set up however I have never done a high 30 min mash before so next time I will change the efficiency and see what happens.


----------



## meathead

meathead said:


> Not my best brew day but not my worst either.
> 
> Should have dust gone with GF water volumes instead of being clever
> 
> SG ended up at 1031 after adding 200 grams ldme
> 
> 21L into fermenter
> 
> In hindsight should have boiled longer.
> 
> Soon see how she tastes.


Awesome beer 3 weeks in bottle looking fwd to tasting in another 3 weeks


----------



## CoxR

Kegged yesterday, I will see how it tastes on the weekend. The sample I tried seemed a bit thin. But flavor was ok may be not enough roast coming through though.


----------



## Frothy1

Had one off the wood at Little Creatures on the weekend and I'm pretty sure they have changed the hops since last visit in late Feb.
I just couldn't pin it down but I don't think Galaxy was there.
It wasn't as bitter and seemed sweeter than normal.
Sadly, It wasn't the Rodgers I was looking forward to, but was OK.


----------



## technobabble66

Goddammit!!
My batch of this has been sitting flat-lined in the FV for 2 weeks now on SG=1.016. 
It's meant to finish at FG=1.013. 
I've tried waiting, swishing and stirring. Nothing.
I might try a forced ferment test, but I'm starting to suspect it's simply finished high rather than stalled.
Not sure why - maybe my mash temps were higher than expected or something.

Anyway, my Dubbel is sitting a little high as well (for the last week) in the other FV, so i might give them another few days then dry hop this and CC both of them.


----------



## earle

I didn't take any hydro readings off mine but would expect a relatively high FG as it has quite a bit of body. Its possible that the calcs can't handle a very short high mash accurately.


----------



## technobabble66

Yep, that's what i'm hoping.
Especially with this one where it's low OG, but mashed very high for a short period of time.
So i'm inclined to think/hope it's done.


:icon_offtopic:
Not sure whether it might be similar with my dubbel, given its a rather high OG, with ~1kg of home-made candy syrup ... though that should be ~100% fermentability, and even if it's at 78% fermentability, it only raises the FG a point or 2. 
So the problem is now that i have one beer i'm probably ready to dry hop & CC, and another beer that probably needs another 1-2 weeks at 20°C to ensure its definitely fermented out. FWP!!


----------



## manticle

How high, how long?
1016 sounds ok for my version of short, high mash.


----------



## technobabble66

Sorry, mants, i just saw this. 
(i wasn't trying to ignore you. Honest!  )

The Mash schedule was intended to be 70/72/78 for 30/15/2.
But ended up being a bit more like 68/70/68/72/78 for 3/20/5/15/2.
Probably will be the same, but the slight drops down to 68°C made me think it'd attenuate out a bit lower. Doesn't seem to be the case now, though!
Also, i've obviously sat at ~70-72 for 45 mins (rather than 72°C for 30mins), so i assumed this would also drop the FG down a bit more. Again, not so.

Thanks for mentioning that it seems about right for the schedule you use, mants. I'm guessing you're normally doing something more like 72°C for 30mins, but at least they should provide similar results, so i know i'm in the ball park.

Also, it's sat at the same FG for over 2 weeks now, so i'm happy to call it done.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Lookin forward to a taste


----------



## earle

earle said:


> Now kegged and drinking very well. Will have to get an actual Rogers from the bottle shop to do a side by side.


Sad news, keg blew last night.


----------



## technobabble66

Boooooooooo!!


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Frothy1 said:


> Had one off the wood at Little Creatures on the weekend and I'm pretty sure they have changed the hops since last visit in late Feb.
> I just couldn't pin it down but I don't think Galaxy was there.


not sure if it's been posted yet, but the website lists the hops these days, it might be stella that you tasted:
Malt:
Pale malt, Wheat, Carapils, Vienna
Hops:
East Kent Goldings (UK) used in the kettle, Cascade (US) in the whirlpool with Stella (Aus) and Cascade (US, NZ and Tasmanian) whole hop flowers used in the hop back.

IBU
24

EBC
35


----------



## Frothy1

I've wondered often if the Rodgers is the second running's from a white rabbit dark ale.


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Wasn't it around before white rabbit became part of little creatures?


----------



## Frothy1

I think so. White Rabbit is in Vic?
Haven't they always done a dark beer in Freo though?


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

FWIW, pitching yeast onto my most recent failed batch (mash temp dramas). Which paves the way for planning of the next brew day as the keg of this only lasted half the expected amount of time [emoji3]


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Finished out at 1.008, bugger. Should still be quaffable albeit not really a clone of Rogers...


----------



## louistoo

Liam_snorkel said:


> not sure if it's been posted yet, but the website lists the hops these days, it might be stella that you tasted:
> Malt:
> Pale malt, Wheat, Carapils, Vienna
> Hops:
> East Kent Goldings (UK) used in the kettle, Cascade (US) in the whirlpool with Stella (Aus) and Cascade (US, NZ and Tasmanian) whole hop flowers used in the hop back.
> 
> IBU
> 24
> 
> EBC
> 35


I was just drinking one thinking amarillo was in there flavor wise but yep stella would do it. Also I wouldn't be worried about finishing at 1.016 as the commercial version dare I say it seems a little thin?


----------



## technobabble66

Coincidence someone posted in this tonight. Just cracked my first almost-at-2-weeks bottle of my clone today. 
Don't have the original to compare with, but tastes pretty damn close. Bit high in IBUs but as a great man once wrote, My Rogers Clone Recipe Tastes Great!! 
(The extra bitterness tastes a bit more like the polyphenols(?) from cube-hopping - should hopefully mellow over a few weeks)





(Free plug for Yeast Forge - it's da Bomb!)


----------



## Frothy1

technobabble66 said:


> Coincidence someone posted in this tonight. Just cracked my first almost-at-2-weeks bottle of my clone today.
> Don't have the original to compare with, but tastes pretty damn close. Bit high in IBUs but as a great man once wrote, My Rogers Clone Recipe Tastes Great!!
> (The extra bitterness tastes a bit more like the polyphenols(?) from cube-hopping - should hopefully mellow over a few weeks)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1464344295.797947.jpg
> 
> (Free plug for Yeast Forge - it's da Bomb!)



How close is your recipe to chrisluki's first post?


----------



## technobabble66

Sort of not really. 
See post #139 http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/index.php?/topic/85337-My-Rogers-Clone-Recipe-Tastes-Great/page__view__findpost__p__1352423

Plus many commentary posts afterwards


----------



## DJ_L3ThAL

Nice one techno! This recipe is. An ever changing evolving beast. Don't be shy guys/gals, bring what you got [emoji1][emoji1][emoji1]


----------



## Benn

View attachment 90544

My attempt, loosely based on earls recipe. Something/several things went wrong during the process and I ended up with a 2.4% ABV beer that tastes nothing like Rogers but is still well tasty and refreshing after a 30 min run. Out of the 3 light beers I've ever tasted I like it the best.

Edit: trying to fix sideways photo.


----------



## Frothy1

Looks the goods, Thats for sure.


----------



## Coodgee

think I will give this one a go next week. Just read every post in this thread! Is the consensus that Earle has got closest so far? Earle, what is your current recipe?


----------



## technobabble66

Earle's may well be the closest. 
Coincidentally DJ and I compared our clones on Tuesday night (without the real one unfortunately) and I'd say we're both pretty close on the grist. Mind you, I don't have a computer next to me to easily compare, but I think us 2 and Earle are all on a similar-ish grist. DJ's had a slightly odd caramel element that was a bit too strong, and the hops in mine are wrong (and massively overcarbed which frustratingly really throws it out, making it much harder to properly gauge the recipe I used [emoji49]). I'd be tempted to redo mine but change the hops regime - no galaxy in the dry hop, probably cascade for fwh & cube, maybe try a whirlpool or Argon with the galaxy, EKG in cube and/or dry hopped. 

Otherwise, just follow Earle's [emoji1]


----------



## Coodgee

Cool thanks!


----------



## Lyrebird_Cycles

Frothy1 said:


> I've wondered often if the Rodgers _(sic)_ is the second running's _(sic)_ from a white rabbit dark ale.


No, it isn't.

By the way it's Rogers', with the apostrophe after the "s", indicating a possessive plural (the beer is named after two blokes named Roger).


----------



## earle

Coodgee said:


> think I will give this one a go next week. Just read every post in this thread! Is the consensus that Earle has got closest so far? Earle, what is your current recipe?


I made a second batch of this and I think the only change I made was halving the choc wheat. This meant the colour was lighter but that doesn't really matter that much to me, but it did reduce the slight roastiness that my first batch had. I don't get much roastiness from Rogers so I guess my second batch was closer to the 'real' thing. I'm more interested in a tasty mid strength beer than creating a perfect copy of Rogers so in the next batch I might go back to the full amount of choc wheat as It was more to my taste or I might try it with a good whack of biscuit malt. Tasted the Croft Brewing Biscuit Blast (3%) and quite liked the contribution that the biscuit malt made to a midstrength beer, so might see what it brings to this recipe.


----------



## pcqypcqy

earle said:


> I made a second batch of this and I think the only change I made was halving the choc wheat. This meant the colour was lighter but that doesn't really matter that much to me, but it did reduce the slight roastiness that my first batch had. I don't get much roastiness from Rogers so I guess my second batch was closer to the 'real' thing. I'm more interested in a tasty mid strength beer than creating a perfect copy of Rogers so in the next batch I might go back to the full amount of choc wheat as It was more to my taste or I might try it with a good whack of biscuit malt. Tasted the Croft Brewing Biscuit Blast (3%) and quite liked the contribution that the biscuit malt made to a midstrength beer, so might see what it brings to this recipe.


Can't believe you ever took a step backwards with choc-wheat. More, not less!


----------



## earle

pcqypcqy said:


> Can't believe you ever took a step backwards with choc-wheat. More, not less!


I wondered if any Toowoomba guys were going to pick that up. 

Don't worry. I'm thinking of brewing another batch of that black IPA which has 460g of choc wheat in a 23L batch. That should help use up some of my stockpile.


----------



## earle

Beersmith BSMX files attached for anyone interested
View attachment Rogers V1.bsmx

View attachment Rogers V2.bsmx


----------



## technobabble66

Hey Earle, got a copy & paste version of them for those of us sans BS? (ianh's spreadsheet FTW!!)


----------



## earle

Ta da 

View attachment AG047 Rogers V1.pdf

View attachment AG054 Rogers V2.pdf


----------



## earle

Edit: double post


----------



## Coodgee

I've never used chocolate wheat malt so have no idea what it does? What is the reasoning behind adding it? From reading the thread it seems like it was a way of darkening the beer while sticking to the malts listed on the blackboard at the brewery (one of which was wheat)?


----------



## Coodgee

check out the "Weyerman Malt Aroma Wheel on this site. A good resource: https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/weyermann-chocolate-wheat-25kg


----------



## earle

I got 1/4 of a sack of the stuff in a bulk buy a while ago - pretty much every beer that I brew that needs a dark grain gets choc wheat - simple as that - lucky I like the flavour though


----------



## technobabble66

Coodgee said:


> I've never used chocolate wheat malt so have no idea what it does? What is the reasoning behind adding it? From reading the thread it seems like it was a way of darkening the beer while sticking to the malts listed on the blackboard at the brewery (one of which was wheat)?


Yep, mainly used for colouring, i'd say. Similar to my use of Midnight Wheat (And fwiw, similar to Earle, i got 1/5th sack of it in a BB, everything gets some if i can). The MW lends a tiny bit of flavour, so i'm guessing the Choc wheat would be similar, maybe a bit more flavour again, given a bit more is required for the colour impact.


Back to me B) I just compared mine to the real thing. I'd drop the wheat in mine - stands out like dog's balls. There might be a whisker in there, like 2-5%, but i'd be satisfied to try the next one without any (aside from the Midnight Wheat). So i'd increase the balance of Ale, Vienna and Munich malts. 

So in short, mine is starting to look more like Earle's :lol:


----------



## Coodgee

This is my slight adaptation of Earle's recipe. Main change is centennial instead of cascade and carafa special II instead of the choc wheat.


Code:


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 30.60 l
Post Boil Volume: 28.60 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 22.50 l
Estimated OG: 1.041 SG
Estimated Color: 23.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 27.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 89.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
1.65 kg               Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett)  Grain         1        41.2 %        
0.80 kg               Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC)         Grain         2        20.0 %        
0.80 kg               Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC)        Grain         3        20.0 %        
0.50 kg               Caramel/Crystal Malt - 65L (Bairds) (110 Grain         4        12.5 %        
0.20 kg               Carapils (4.0 EBC)                       Grain         5        5.0 %         
0.05 kg               Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (925.9 EB Grain         6        1.2 %         
20.00 g               East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.70 %] - Boil Hop           7        11.8 IBUs     
30.00 g               East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.70 %] - Boil Hop           8        10.8 IBUs     
50.00 g               Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool   Hop           9        5.2 IBUs      
1.0 pkg               American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) [124 Yeast         10       -             


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 4.00 kg
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 10.43 l of water at 80.5 C          72.0 C        60 min        

Sparge: Fly sparge


----------



## pcqypcqy

Coodgee said:


> This is my slight adaptation of Earle's recipe. Main change is centennial instead of cascade and carafa special II instead of the choc wheat.


It's hardly beer without the choc wheat.

(sorry, Toowoomba joke)


----------



## Coodgee

earle said:


> Now kegged and drinking very well. Will have to get an actual Rogers from the bottle shop to do a side by side.



love that colour. what EBC did your recipe predict? Mine is coming in at 23.6 at the moment. that's with 50grams of carafa special III. was thinking of adding 50grams of special B?


----------



## earle

Coodgee said:


> love that colour. what EBC did your recipe predict? Mine is coming in at 23.6 at the moment. that's with 50grams of carafa special III. was thinking of adding 50grams of special B?


That's a photo of my version 1 so predicted colour was 27.7EBC


----------



## Coodgee

earle said:


> That's a photo of my version 1 so predicted colour was 27.7EBC


56 grams of carafa special III will get me to 27.4EBC. hopefully that is not too much. I think the dark colour is an important part of the beer.


----------



## earle

You could always try the cold steep or add it at mash out as suggested in some posts. FWIW, i added the choc wheat along with the rest of the grist at mash in.


----------



## Coodgee

I just realised I can actually get chocolate malt. Was the reason you dropped the choc from 100 to 50 because it was too roasty/chocolatey? if so I will probably go with version 2 grain bill. What would you change if you brewed it again now? I was thinking of using 1272 american ale II just to give it a bit more fruit and complexity which is not out of place in a mild. But the original rogers is pretty clean so maybe just US-05.

regarding colour, an easy way to make it darker is probably to just use a bit of red & green food colouring together. it's tasteless and harmless and would definitely darken the beer.


----------



## earle

When I tasted my version 1 next to an actual Rogers, the Rogers seemed a bit sweeter. While mine didn't really taste roasty, I though the choc wheat could be over-riding the malt sweetness a little so I halved it in the second version. The second version is probably closer to the mark but I think I prefer the first version. If/when I brew it again I'll probably go back to the first version but I'm also thinking of subbing in whack of biscuit malt to see what that can bring to the party.


----------



## Coodgee

thanks man. I might try a darker crystal then and go with a bit more choc. would be be keen to have a few beers with you Toowoomba hooligans some time


----------



## Coodgee

Got this one set to 18 degrees in the fermenting fridge now. I set my efficiency to 65%, upped the grain % by 20% and only sparged with 8 litres instead of the usual 16. 


Code:


Style: Ordinary Bitter (rogers)
TYPE: All Grain


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 29.60 l
Post Boil Volume: 27.60 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 21.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.042 SG (was originally 1039)
Estimated Color: 27.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 25.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 % (got 70% instead of 65%)
Est Mash Efficiency: 80.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
23.00 l               Brisbane                                 Water         1        -             
1.00 g                Salt (Mash 60.0 mins)                    Water Agent   2        -             
2.16 kg               Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett)  Grain         3        48.6 %        
0.96 kg               Munich II (Weyermann) (22.0 EBC)         Grain         4        21.6 %        
0.96 kg               Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (8.0 EBC)        Grain         5        21.6 %        
0.24 kg               Caramel/Crystal Malt - 65L (Bairds) (145 Grain         6        5.4 %         
0.06 kg               Chocolate Wheat Malt (1100.0 EBC)        Grain         7        1.4 %         
0.06 kg               Special B (Dingemans) (300.0 EBC)        Grain         8        1.4 %         
20.00 g               East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.70 %] - Boil Hop           9        12.1 IBUs     
20.00 g               East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.70 %] - Boil Hop           10       7.3 IBUs      
0.50 Items            Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)        Fining        11       -             
56.00 g               Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool   Hop           12       5.9 IBUs      
1.0 pkg               Safale American  (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)  Yeast         13       -             


Mash Schedule: Low Gravity Mash
Total Grain Weight: 4.44 kg
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Sacc Rest         Add 16.00 l of water and heat to 68.0 C 68.0 C        60 min        
Mash Out          Heat to 75.0 C over 5 min               75.0 C        10 min        

Sparge: Fly sparge with 8.05 l water at 75.0 C
Notes:
------
 mash ph 5.5, no acid addition. post boil ph 5.3.


----------



## Dickster86

Soooo. Anybody got any idea of how i might convert this to an extract / partial recipe???

I was stupid and promised a mate i would make a tasty mid strength, and so looking at doing a rogers.

It will be a 27L batch in total (1 keg and 24 x 330ml bottles), and the boil will be about 14L

So far i am looking at a tin of amber malt extract, a tin of wheat extract, and a grain steep using some pils.

Was also going to add some maltodextrine for some head retention and mouthfeel.

Have already got the EKG, Cascade and Ella hops. Thinking a 60 min boil with 30g of EKG, 10min Boil with 10g Cascade. Then dry hop with 20g Cascade and 30g Stella (oops i mean Ella  )


----------



## Coodgee

Coodgee said:


> This is my slight adaptation of Earle's recipe. Main change is centennial instead of cascade and carafa special II instead of the choc wheat.
> 
> Recipe Specifications
> --------------------------
> Boil Size: 30.60 l
> Post Boil Volume: 28.60 l
> Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l
> Bottling Volume: 22.50 l
> Estimated OG: 1.041 SG
> Estimated Color: 23.0 EBC
> Estimated IBU: 27.8 IBUs
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
> Est Mash Efficiency: 89.7 %
> Boil Time: 60 Minutes
> 
> Ingredients:
> ------------
> Amt Name Type # %/IBU
> 1.65 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) Grain 1 41.2 %
> 0.80 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 2 20.0 %
> 0.80 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 3 20.0 %
> 0.50 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 65L (Bairds) (110 Grain 4 12.5 %
> 0.20 kg Carapils (4.0 EBC) Grain 5 5.0 %
> 0.05 kg Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (925.9 EB Grain 6 1.2 %
> 20.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.70 %] - Boil Hop 7 11.8 IBUs
> 30.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.70 %] - Boil Hop 8 10.8 IBUs
> 50.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop 9 5.2 IBUs
> 1.0 pkg American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) [124 Yeast 10 -
> 
> 
> Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
> Total Grain Weight: 4.00 kg
> ----------------------------
> Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
> Mash In Add 10.43 l of water at 80.5 C 72.0 C 60 min
> 
> Sparge: Fly sparge


Just had my first taste of this one sitting in the primary fermenter currently at 4 degrees. I think the chocolate wheat really dominates. It's got a dominant toasty flavour. 

That toast my meld in time, but currently in my very humble opinion my original guess is closer to the original:


Code:


Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
8.00 g                Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent   1        -             
3.00 kg               Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett)  Grain         2        83.3 %        
0.25 kg               Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC)         Grain         3        6.9 %         
0.20 kg               Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (110.0 EBC)   Grain         4        5.6 %         
0.10 kg               Wheat Malt, Dark (17.0 EBC)              Grain         5        2.8 %         
0.05 kg               Special B (Dingemans) (290.6 EBC)        Grain         6        1.4 %         
20.00 g               Centennial [9.30 %] - Boil 20.0 min      Hop           7        12.4 IBUs     
10.00 g               Simcoe [13.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min          Hop           8        2.9 IBUs      
1.10 tsp              Brewbrite Slurry (Boil 0.0 mins)         Fining        9        -             
30.00 g               Centennial [9.30 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  5 Hop           10       3.1 IBUs      
30.00 g               Simcoe [13.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  5.0  Hop           11       4.4 IBUs      
1.0 pkg               American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) [124 Yeast         12       -


----------



## Coldspace

This beer is on my deff to do list soon, I'm following the pioneers with interest ...


----------



## Coodgee

Coodgee said:


> Just had my first taste of this one sitting in the primary fermenter currently at 4 degrees. I think the chocolate wheat really dominates. It's got a dominant toasty flavour.
> 
> That toast my meld in time, but currently in my very humble opinion my original guess is closer to the original:
> 
> Ingredients:
> ------------
> Amt Name Type # %/IBU
> 8.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 1 -
> 3.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) Grain 2 83.3 %
> 0.25 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 3 6.9 %
> 0.20 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (110.0 EBC) Grain 4 5.6 %
> 0.10 kg Wheat Malt, Dark (17.0 EBC) Grain 5 2.8 %
> 0.05 kg Special B (Dingemans) (290.6 EBC) Grain 6 1.4 %
> 20.00 g Centennial [9.30 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 12.4 IBUs
> 10.00 g Simcoe [13.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 2.9 IBUs
> 1.10 tsp Brewbrite Slurry (Boil 0.0 mins) Fining 9 -
> 30.00 g Centennial [9.30 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 5 Hop 10 3.1 IBUs
> 30.00 g Simcoe [13.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 5.0 Hop 11 4.4 IBUs
> 1.0 pkg American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) [124 Yeast 12 -


My Earle recipe has been in the keg for a week now and is properly carbed. I take back the comment about the roast aroma dominating. It has mostly disappeared and now I get a nice floral aroma from the centennial with a little bit of malt sweetness


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## Coodgee

talking to my self here, but a further update on this beer: It's getting better with age. Had another pint last night and it's excellent. Definitely a beer that gets better with a month in the keg.


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## earle

Took my recipe from this thread which had the higher amount of choc malt and subbed in a whack of biscuit malt. Really enjoying the flavour of this one.


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## pcqypcqy

earle said:


> Took my recipe from this thread which had the higher amount of choc malt and subbed in a whack of biscuit malt. Really enjoying the flavour of this one.


LESS choc malt? Do I even know you anymore?


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## earle

pcqypcqy said:


> LESS choc malt? Do I even know you anymore?


Don't be stupid. Choc malt wasn't reduced, something else was reduced to make way for the biscuit malt.


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## pcqypcqy

earle said:


> Don't be stupid. Choc malt wasn't reduced, something else was reduced to make way for the biscuit malt.


Ben hooked me up with some choc wheat, will have to work out what to put it in. Though we know the answer to that is "everything"


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## Coodgee

Latest iteration from this thread. Malt bill is same as last time but planning on loading this one up with cascade and using ringwood ale because I have a litre of thick slurry in the fridge: 


Code:


Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
23.00 l               Brisbane                                 Water         1        -             
1.00 g                Salt (Mash 60.0 mins)                    Water Agent   2        -             
2.16 kg               Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett)  Grain         3        48.6 %        
0.96 kg               Munich II (Weyermann) (22.0 EBC)         Grain         4        21.6 %        
0.96 kg               Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (8.0 EBC)        Grain         5        21.6 %        
0.24 kg               Caramel/Crystal Malt - 65L (Bairds) (145 Grain         6        5.4 %         
0.06 kg               Chocolate Wheat Malt (1100.0 EBC)        Grain         7        1.4 %         
0.06 kg               Special B (Dingemans) (300.0 EBC)        Grain         8        1.4 %         
5.00 g                Cascade [6.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min         Hop           9        3.2 IBUs      
50.00 g               Cascade [6.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min         Hop           10       19.3 IBUs     
0.50 Items            Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)        Fining        11       -             
35.00 g               Cascade [6.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  5.0  Hop           12       2.2 IBUs      
1.0 pkg               Ringwood Ale (Wyeast Labs #1187) [124.21 Yeast         13       -


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## technobabble66

Just posted this in the WAYB17 thread:

My latest version of a Roger's Ale clone.

Vol = 22L
OG = 1.040
FG = 1.013
IBU = 24
EBC = 30.5
alc% = 3.8%

1.39kg Ale, Viking (34.8%)
1kg Vienna, Viking (25%)
1kg Munich, Viking (25%)
0.24kg Heritage Crystal, Simpsons (6%)
0.24kg CaraPils, Wey (6%)
0.06kg Midnight Wheat, Briess (1.5%)
0.007kg Acidulated, Wey (1.8%)

11g EKG (5.7%) @FWH
10g each of EKG, Galaxy flowers (11.1%) & Cascade (6.8%) into the cube (@20mins)
10g EKG dry hopped (maybe)

Pitched onto a Mangrove Jacks M44 yeast cake.

Mashed & initial boil on the 9th. Finished boil and cubed on the 11th, pitched onto a yeast cake today, on the 13th.
---------------------------
Seemed to be very close to the right colour & smell of the malts, so fingers crossed.
Not sure if i detected a slight whiff of vinegar from the yeast cake as i drained the cube onto it, so definitely fingers crossed! :unsure:


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## Gloveski

Interesting thread definately one I want to have a go at brewing in the not to distant future


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## Gloveski

well just ordered the grain for this one will use Hallertauer instead of Liberty in Earle's version . Having just discovered this drop it's my mid of choice so if I can brew something even remotely the same I will be happy


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## earle

If you're keen for it to be closer to Rogers use the version with less choc malt.Both versions are tasty though and i personally prefer the version with more choc wheat even though its further away from the original. My latest version has a whack of buscuit as well and is my favourite.


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## Mardoo

How hard did you whack it? Erm... really though, how much biscuit did you use?


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## earle

Whack it real good


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## earle

1/2 kg


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## scooterism

Any results?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

I like whacking a biscuit


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## technobabble66

As per the WITG thread, my latest Rogers' Ale clone.
Seems fairly close, but yet to do a proper side by side. Very happy with it!



Recipe is here:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/index.php?/topic/85337-My-Rogers-Clone-Recipe-Tastes-Great/page__view__findpo


(EDIT: obviously looks a bit darker in photo than in reality)


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## Gloveski

well half way through the keg with this one and the wife really likes it , helps when she is on a fitness kick and can have an awesome tasting beer that is a bit lower in ABV and calories to boot. Great recipe Earle and one I will brew again


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## Black Devil Dog

Finally got around to making this, it's been on my 'to do' list for a very long time.

Mine's the one on the right.

Both are pretty much identical to each other in colour, but the colour in the photo isn't true to either beers, they're really more the colour of the beer bottle.

They taste different to each other though. The original is quite a bit sweeter and has more hop aroma. 

I like the Lychee hop aroma in the original, but prefer my lack of sweetness.

ABV in mine is 4.3, original is 3.8, so next time I might back mine off a bit to get it closer to the original.

I'm very biased, but I kinda like mine more, even though it has less hop aroma. Definitely brewing it again, maybe go a bit harder with the dry hopping and/or whirlpool hops. Maybe even use different hops.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, you all inspired me.








Recipe: Roger The Dodger

Style: Mild Ale
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 59.58 l
Post Boil Volume: 52.08 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 48.00 l 
Bottling Volume: 47.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.040 SG
Estimated Color: 28.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 23.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 83.3 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU 
4.00 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 1 - 
2.50 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 - 
2.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 3 - 
3.50 kg Gladfield American Ale Malt (5.0 EBC) Grain 4 45.2 % 
1.70 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 5 21.9 % 
1.50 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 6 19.4 % 
0.40 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 7 5.2 % 
0.30 kg Chocolate Wheat (Weyermann) (817.5 EBC) Grain 8 3.9 % 
0.20 kg Caramunich I (Weyermann) (100.5 EBC) Grain 9 2.6 % 
0.15 kg Acidulated (Weyermann) (3.5 EBC) Grain 10 1.9 % 
15.00 g Ella (aka Stella) [13.20 %] - First Wort Hop 11 12.8 IBUs 
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 12 - 
25.00 g Ella (aka Stella) [13.20 %] - Boil 10.0 Hop 13 7.0 IBUs 
2.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 14 - 
10.00 g Ella (aka Stella) [13.20 %] - Steep/Whir Hop 15 3.9 IBUs 
2.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 16 - 
75.00 g Ella (aka Stella) [14.90 %] - Dry Hop 0. Hop 17 0.0 IBUs 


Mash Schedule: 50 litre Braumeister 40-64-72-78
Total Grain Weight: 7.75 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time 
Mash In Add 64.81 l of water at 42.1 C 40.0 C 0 min 
Mash Step Add 0.00 l of water and heat to 64.0 C 64.0 C 60 min 
Mash Step Add 0.00 l of water and heat to 72.0 C 72.0 C 30 min 
Mash Out Add 0.00 l of water and heat to 78.0 C 78.0 C 30 min 



Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## peekaboo_jones

That's a ripper black evil dog, thanks for sharing your recipe I will try it.
Similary I made a mild ale with pale and wheat malt and only 4% wey choc wheat and it came out very dark. I don't have a photo but it seemed much blacker than yours. Weird... Mine was meant to be a mild saison with a touch of crystal wheat but when I did the mash it came out black haha. Must have been weyermann choc wheat...


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## peekaboo_jones

In the light it looks about the same actually!


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## Nizmoose

chrisluki said:


> [SIZE=11pt]15 brews in, and after A LOT of lessons learned (infections, alpha acid calcs, use of specialty malts) ...Finally I have brewed something that I am proud of! [/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=11pt]It didn't hit the colour that I wanted, even with the brewers caramel, and it has a little less on the nose than I hoped for...but it was damn tasty! You could not wipe the smile off my face last night when I was drinking it, my wife though I was a fool![/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=11pt]12 months of toiling away..no brewing experience, building my own set up and going all grain straight away...last night made it feel like it was all worth it. My best beer yet![/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=11pt]But they can always be better, hey! Few more grams/days for the dry hopping and tiny bit of darker malt (suggestions?) to fix the colour and not require me to use my brewers caramel.[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=11pt]Cheer to great beers! [/SIZE]





technobabble66 said:


> Hey Deej, Back to this, what recipe will you go with then?
> I'm still v happy with the look of the recipe in post #108 + the mods done in post #110.
> How's your's coming along?
> WRT the hops, I'm sure the Citra would work well. I personally would be keen to see it done as a clone, just to see if we can nail it.
> However, I'll do mine as above anyway, so if yours is kinda similar it'll be interesting to gauge the difference Citra makes.
> Could you do a double batch? One with cube- or keg-hopped Citra and t'other without?




It's been a while but are you guys still on here?


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## Quokka42

What is interesting to me is almost all of the recipes suggested include Carapils - my experience is like Brulosophy, it adds nothing but sugars. I haven't failed to get a good head once I got on top of all grain - even on a 2.5% experiment!

Most of my recipes have rather simple grain bills - but I don't need to worry about marketing, all my friends and family like my beer too much already!


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## Nizmoose

There's every possibility that some varying sizes of foam positive polypeptides are present in higher concentration in carapils but it's good that your process produces good foam regardless!

Edit: I should probably add I'd be interested to compare wey and briess carapils as from memory wey is a little more mealy than glassy and I'd suspect the more crystal-like of the two would provide less foam benefit


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## technobabble66

Hey Nizzle, how's it all hanging?


Nizmoose said:


> It's been a while but are you guys still on here?


Basically no.
I have a few threads i've got alerts set for, so i'll occasionally check in when they are triggered. 
Google knows where else i've been as i still use my same handle. Otherwise PM me your mobile and i'll text you if you want to discuss Rogers' et al further.

It reminds me i need to give this another crack. Rogers is a great beer, and i thought my last clone was definitely in the ballpark. Just need a few tweaks, such as the hops schedule.
Also, i've tried a few Hargreaves Hill Junior's of late - another excellent hoppy mild. So i'll need to try a few of these after the lager season.


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## Nizmoose

technobabble66 said:


> Hey Nizzle, how's it all hanging?
> 
> Basically no.
> I have a few threads i've got alerts set for, so i'll occasionally check in when they are triggered.
> Google knows where else i've been as i still use my same handle. Otherwise PM me your mobile and i'll text you if you want to discuss Rogers' et al further.
> 
> It reminds me i need to give this another crack. Rogers is a great beer, and i thought my last clone was definitely in the ballpark. Just need a few tweaks, such as the hops schedule.
> Also, i've tried a few Hargreaves Hill Junior's of late - another excellent hoppy mild. So i'll need to try a few of these after the lager season.



Hey sorry to get back so late, I have a pretty funny development after all these years of experimenting, unfortunately not one that will help with the recipe but I'll pm you anyway


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## Flavourybitterness

Been reading through this... there is a lot of recipes. 
Does anyone have any opinion on which iteration is the best?
Not concerned about colour, just flavour. Most important to me is the hop presence in the Rogers.

Thanks!


----------

