# Protein Rest - What Is It And Is It Handy?



## HoppingMad (1/4/09)

Ok, I've come to the understanding that to make a good AG wheat beer I need to do a protein rest. 

Trouble is I have no idea what one is. Or how to do one. Or what the benefit of doing one is.

The searching I've done suggests the following:

"A protein rest is a portion of the mashing process. Typically, it is the first step in mashing. To conduct a protein rest, add 1 quart of water to each pound of grain. Hold at about 120 to 135F for 20 to 30 minutes. Then, proceed on to the starch conversion rest by adding another half quart of boiling water."

So if I read this right, when I start my brew I effectively steep my grain as a first step between 45-55 degrees celcius? Then raise the temp up after 30 mins to my regular mash temp of 67 degrees and commence regular mashing? 

Would this be right?

What does a protein rest do exactly? Do you need them for wheat beers? If its just for improving clarity I can live without it as most wheats I've drunk seem to be cloudy.

Any thoughts from the wise, fire away  

Hopper.


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## Screwtop (1/4/09)

HoppingMad said:


> Any thoughts from the wise, fire away
> 
> Hopper.



If you want some weizen advice have a look here Weizen Mash Schedule


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## Fourstar (1/4/09)

dont bother with a protien rest unless you are using a big whack of adjunct. for a weizen, i would employ an acid rest to get the ferulic (spelling?) acid going for fermentation purposes (enhances the clove/banana production)

Tradition Decoction mashes are also recommended for Weizens. All fails, read Screwys link.


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## HoppingMad (1/4/09)

Thanks for the link Screwtop. Looks pretty technical and a big long thread so might have to re-read it a few times to get my head around this. Have no idea what an acid rest is either Fourstar. Looks like I've got a bit of light reading to do on both subjects!

Hopper.


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## newguy (1/4/09)

Acid rest = 40C or so. Usually only used for soft water as the acid created isn't very "strong". Traditionally used to lower the mash pH in regions with soft water and undermodified malts, as part of a triple decoction. Dough in at acid rest -> protein rest -> sacch rest -> mashout.


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## HoppingMad (1/4/09)

Cool. I guess living in Melbourne we don't exactly have hard water here. Will look into this.

Hopper.


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## HoppingMad (1/4/09)

Just read Screwy's thread link over lunch and think I've got it. It's an awesome thread once you weave through it so thanks!

I guess for wheats and doing rests/steps I've got two options judging by the recommendations.

Zwickel's:

mash in at 35C and heat up to 42C rest for 40-45min (ferulic-acid rest)
go further to 63C and rest for 30min
go to 72 and rest for 30min
heat up to 78C and mash out.

Or the one recommended by Weyermann:

Mash: 
Mash in at 35C
Raise mash temperature to 45C
Rest mash for 10 minutes 
Raise mash temperature to 52C 
Rest mash for 10 minutes 
Raise mash temperature to 62C
Rest mash for 30 minutes 
Raise mash temperature to 72C
Rest mash for 30 minutes 
Iodine test normal 
Raise mash temperature to 78C for mash-out

So it looks like the thread did answer the question. Thanks heaps guys! :beer: 

Hopper.


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## churchy (1/4/09)

When raising the temp at each stage are you adding hot water? or have you guys got electric elements in your mash tun and turn the heat up?


Andrew


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## newguy (1/4/09)

churchy said:


> When raising the temp at each stage are you adding hot water? or have you guys got electric elements in your mash tun and turn the heat up?



Depends. If you're mashing in an esky you can either add boiling water or withdraw some of the mash, boil that, then add it back into the esky to raise the overall mash temp. The problem with adding boiling water is that sooner or later your esky runs out of room. Withdrawing & boiling a portion of the mash is known as a decoction. If you're mashing in a metal vessel you can add heat however you want so step mashes aren't an issue.


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## samhighley (1/4/09)

HoppingMad said:


> Or the one recommended by Weyermann:



The mash regime recommended by Weyermann will be impossible without some way of applying heat to the mash, such as an immersion element, heatable mash tun (ie. steel mash tun), RIMS etc.

Sam


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## HoppingMad (1/4/09)

Yep, I've got a 3 tier keggle setup (all steel vessels). Burner on my HLT and on my boiler so might have to 'borrow' one from under the boiler while I do the stepping I reckon.

Yeah bit hard to heat up a cooler with a burner - melted plastic and scorched grain everywhere! :lol: 

Hopper.


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## rich_lamb (1/4/09)

churchy said:


> When raising the temp at each stage are you adding hot water? or have you guys got electric elements in your mash tun and turn the heat up?



Andrew, when I do a step mash (very rare) I do the first rests in a kettle over direct heat. You can stir for even heating, and the temps are not so high so they "hold" fairly well.
When I get to the sacc. rest temp I dump it all into my usual esky and proceed as usual, since my esky is my sparging vessel.

If I do a mash out I use infusion; adding near boiling water. But it depends on the mash volume as my esky is small - if it's a big beer I wont bother with the mashout, or I'll do a decoction. You can mix and match this stuff to suit your needs...


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## Thirsty Boy (1/4/09)

I disagree with your initial statement.

IMHO you do not need to do a protein rest to make a good wheat beer. In fact you should be able to easily make a very good wheat beer indeed with a single infusion mash. A wonderful, simple to make tasty beer is a weizen.

50% pilsner malt
50% wheat malt

mash at 67 for an hour

hallertau or some other German noble hop to 15ish IBUs

Wyeast 3068 at 17C. A little less for more cloves and a little more for more banana.

I add a little munich because I like the darker more malty versions like franziskaner.

Although I do a step mash and a 55 protein rest when I make a weizen - _occasionally_ including a ferulic acid rest (different to a "normal" acid rest newguy) if I am looking for a stronger clove character (doesn't help with the banana fourstar). I certainly don't think its a must. I do that protein rest with every beer I make - so in effect, I am not changing a single thing about my mashing process when I make a weizen.

I don't think you need to either.

Although - as full immersion AG brewing indoctrination process... nothing does it like a full triple decoction wheat beer. Dough in to F acid rest, decoct to protein rest, decoct to sach rest, decoct to Mashout --- mmmm 12 hr brew day.

TB


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## Darren (1/4/09)

Hey Hopping Mad,

I agree with Thirstyboy (yes unusual),

Yeast makes a weizen NOT "rests"


cheers

darren


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## Screwtop (1/4/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I disagree with your initial statement.
> 
> IMHO you do not need to do a protein rest to make a good wheat beer. In fact you should be able to easily make a very good wheat beer indeed with a single infusion mash. A wonderful, simple to make tasty beer is a weizen.
> 
> ...




*From experience* I agree 99% with Thirsty. As a matter of fact I find that promoting isoamylacetate (Banana) is achieved more simply by reducing the amount of wheat in the grist. I find the clove/tartness in my weizens is more the result of the amount of wheat in the grist. I do like Zwickels mash profile, purely for the dry weizen that it produces, a great summer quaffing weizen. But if I want to make a weizen with more banana ester then I rely more on the grain bill than the profile of the yeast strain. I find that using 50% wheat grist and a single infustion mash (well basically single infusion, like Thirsty I mash in at around protien rest temp for convenience then raise to sacch rest temp) at around 66C allows the banana ester to shine through. If the beer finishes a llittle sweet this also seems to allow the banana ester to shine, that's why I use 66C sacch temp. Played around with different yeasts and fermentation temps using 60% wheat but struggled to produce the banana ester that I had had in my early weizens, they were all higher in clove esters. Came to this conclusion after returning to using 50% wheat again, wheat produces an inherent tartness in beeer and the banana ester produced by the yeast struggles to shine through when wheat dominates the grain bill.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## samhighley (2/4/09)

I do a protein rest for my Witbier, as I use about 40% flaked wheat.


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## HoppingMad (2/4/09)

Thanks for the feedback on the rests and stepping guys. 

This is good news if they are not essential as I leapt in the deep end and did a wheat beer very similar to thirsty's recipe (same grain bill and hops - just using a dry WB-06 yeast) that is fermenting now, and was worried that by skipping this process it might turn out shite.

Might do a similar wheat with steps/rest and see how it turns out by way of comparison - but the suggestions of up to 12 hours in the brew shed is a little daunting I've gotta admit. 

Agree with the comment on Wheats being about the yeast too particularly from what I've read, not so much experience - thought that the banana came out at higher temps and clove at lower with Weizen yeasts - didn't realise that the mash could affect the balance so much, very interesting - and one reason I would like to delve further into this process.

Cheers! :icon_cheers: 

Hopper


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## lespaul (20/10/10)

I did a weizen on the weekend and did the step mash of:
44 for 15
51 for 15
64 for 40
70 for 20
or so i thought, until the gas ran out on the protein rest (51), and it sat at the protein rest state for around 30 minutes...will an extended protein rest develop any flavours? or anything to expect in the finished beer?
cheers


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## hsb (20/10/10)

As always, the answer is as clear as looking through a cloudy beer after a skinful of said beer.  (Only meaning to imply that there are many views to be had in all things homebrew, the advice above is all great and I'll also be working my way through it to make my own choices)

With these many-Step-Mashes and mention of Immersion Heaters, does anyone put their Immersion Heater into the mash itself? 
Currently I add hotter water from a HLT to raise temps in the Mash (HLT heated with Immersion Heater). But this is slow to heat the HLT and would make some of these Step Mashes more difficult. Is Immersion Heater in with the Mash causing damage to the Grain/unwanted effects? Ty.


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## manticle (20/10/10)

hsb said:


> With these many-Step-Mashes and mention of Immersion Heaters, does anyone put their Immersion Heater into the mash itself?
> Currently I add hotter water from a HLT to raise temps in the Mash (HLT heated with Immersion Heater). But this is slow to heat the HLT and would make some of these Step Mashes more difficult. Is Immersion Heater in with the Mash causing damage to the Grain/unwanted effects? Ty.



Yes I do and no I haven't noticed any unpleasant effects. Just make sure it's sturdy, you stir it around evenly (as mash temp in my tun often has hot spots and cool spots anyway), unplug it before removing and if you have a plastic tun, keep it away from the sides (obvious but worth mentioning).


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## hsb (20/10/10)

Thanks. Think I will give it a go. I can just transfer from HLT, stir until I hit temp then back into HLT. Sounds good, should help cut my brewday as well. Had thought it was a No No but you've given me the confidence to get stuck in. Ta.


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## manticle (20/10/10)

Exactly what I do (HLT to tun and back). Even doing single infusion it can be handy to adjust temp if you don't hit it exactly where you want it.


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## hsb (20/10/10)

Sounds like a winner. :icon_cheers: 

Apologies for going slightly OT, here's the last Protein Rest post to pull things back on topic...



lespaul said:


> I did a weizen on the weekend and did the step mash of:
> 44 for 15
> 51 for 15
> 64 for 40
> ...


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## manticle (20/10/10)

I should clarify - I have read about people concerned with scorching the mash. I myself have not noticed it happening in my mash. I also step mash using the all the different tricks so starting with smaller water volume and using hot water to lift mash temp from 55 protein to first sacch temp. If wanting to raise temp again either for high sacch rest or mash-out, I will usually decoct and mash out will be hot water. Immersion heater is used to hit or tweak exact temps or for small lifts (such as low sacc rest to high).

I'm sure you could scorch the mash if you weren't careful or were trying to do do much heating with the immersion heater so see what works best for you.

Just good to be aware of possibilities and potential downfalls of methods - but don't stress about them. Using an immersion heater in your mash doesn't immediately start scorching grains and maybe it will give you some of the melanoiden character you get from decoctions.

@Lespaul - I'd be interested to hear how it goes as I've read that too long in low 50s with modern malts can effect head retention. be good to hear someone's actual experience. My protein rests are always mid 50s and my regime is modelled on the oft mentioned Zwickel step regime.


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## MHB (20/10/10)

Mostly couldn't be bothered and suspect it's unnecessary with the malts available today. Did a Belgian Wheat yesterday, ~35% Unmalted Wheat and 10% Oat Malt so I mashed in at 40oC, for 10 minutes then went to 50oC for another 10 then up to Scarifying temperatures.

So neither good nor bad, just something you do when your choice of grain makes it necessary.

MHB


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## Bribie G (20/10/10)

I asked Herr Weyermann (in Question Time after his Wellington "Cryer Malts" presentation) about malts such as their Pilseners and Bohemians and whether they needed any special treatment and the info was that they are very well modified and you can just go ahead and use them in isothermal mashes etc, also with adjuncts up to around 30%. He said that whilst they love home brewers and go out of their way to support them, at the end of the day their malts overwhelmingly go to commercial Euro breweries - that's what got me interested in the Hochkurz Mash - works fine for them without a protein rest.


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## raven19 (20/10/10)

manticle said:


> Yes I do and no I haven't noticed any unpleasant effects. Just make sure it's sturdy, you stir it around evenly (as mash temp in my tun often has hot spots and cool spots anyway), unplug it before removing and if you have a plastic tun, keep it away from the sides (obvious but worth mentioning).




I, on the flip side, have not had success with immersion elements in my MT. Grains got stuck between the rings of the element, and lets just say the beer became affectionaly known as a roasted/smoked weizen. :icon_vomit: 

I added a few kg's of strawberries to half of it.

I drank it all, it was my second AG.


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## lespaul (20/10/10)

MHB said:


> Mostly couldn't be bothered and suspect it's unnecessary with the malts available today.



This seems to be the recurring theme, that modern malts mean that the gain from the step mash really isnt as beneficial as it was decades ago.

also I wasnt sure about the growth of lactoacillus from the extended time i had it at the protein rest, i dont know much about it at all but i think it might be from time at a lower temperature?


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## felten (20/10/10)

More like overnight though, not 30 minutes, you will be fine.


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## manticle (20/10/10)

raven19 said:


> I, on the flip side, have not had success with immersion elements in my MT. Grains got stuck between the rings of the element, and lets just say the beer became affectionaly known as a roasted/smoked weizen. :icon_vomit:
> 
> I added a few kg's of strawberries to half of it.
> 
> I drank it all, it was my second AG.



Was yours mounted in there?


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## Thirsty Boy (20/10/10)

There's a difference between not "needing" to do a step or decoction mash - and it being bad or ineffectual if you do one.

My beers are different when I don't do a protein rest. They have a different body and mouthfeel, and they have different foam characteristics. In general, I like them better when I do the P rest.

I am however NOT doing a traditional protein rest for a longer period at around 50 - that's what you do if you have under modified malt, to smash up the left over protein matrix and allow you to access the starch. I'm doing short 5 min rest at 55 to convert a portion of the longer proteins in the mash to medium length proteins. In less modified malts... you'd get this portion as a co-result of the action that breaks the matrix proteins... In well modified malts, you need a "modified" P rest schedule to get that bit, while missing out on most of the now unnecessary bits of protein degradation associated with a traditional P rest.

Well... That's the way I explain what seems to happen in my beer anyway.

PS - those immersion elements are bendable (in a minimal fashion) You can spread the coil out a little bit so grain can't get stuck in there, and it makes them easier to clean too.


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## Nick JD (20/10/10)

I remember reading somewhere that protein rests can be bad for beer if the malt is well-modified.


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## lespaul (20/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> I remember reading somewhere that protein rests can be bad for beer if the malt is well-modified.



In relation to the extended protein rest that i had, i dont mind if its bad, just if i can tell what to look for that makes it bad.


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## marksfish (20/10/10)

as far as i remember after 15 minutes of a protien rest with well modified malts the protiens are smashed into amino acids which ruins head formation and retention.


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## TidalPete (20/10/10)

raven19 said:


> I, on the flip side, have not had success with immersion elements in my MT. Grains got stuck between the rings of the element, and lets just say the beer became affectionaly known as a roasted/smoked weizen. :icon_vomit:
> 
> I added a few kg's of strawberries to half of it.
> 
> I drank it all, it was my second AG.



Raven,
Had the same hassle when I used my immersion with my old gravity 3-vessel setup. Solved the problem by putting the immersion in the vice & carefully stretching out the coils to allow the grains to slip through & just to keep on-topic I give all my beers other than Wheaties a 10 minute Protein Rest (Use the Zwickel method for Wheaties & Wits) with no obvious problems. Not saying this is the way to go but it works for me.

TP


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## manticle (20/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> I remember reading somewhere that protein rests can be bad for beer if the malt is well-modified.



possibly in this thread and just about every thread that mentions protein rests.

My experience of short rests at 55 degrees has so far suggested no such thing.


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## /// (20/10/10)

Apart from the P Rest for foam/body, dont get sucked up in the 'having to' which alot of the bigger guys do to save their filters. The theme of this thread is wheat beer (and hence a filter is evil), but for other beers the P rests are done to degrade carry over P's that would otherwise clag up the filters used ...

Scotty


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## Nick JD (20/10/10)

manticle said:


> possibly in this thread and just about every thread that mentions protein rests.
> 
> My experience of short rests at 55 degrees has so far suggested no such thing.



I don't do them and my beer is fine. Big Whoop to protein rests - waste of time. 

Great for those who want to be head brewer. Not necessary for those who don't have their head in their arse.


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## felten (20/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> I don't do them and my beer is fine. Big Whoop to protein rests - waste of time.
> 
> Great for those who want to be head brewer. Not necessary for those who don't have their head in their arse.



Nicks way is the only way.


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## Thirsty Boy (21/10/10)

felten said:


> Nicks way is the only way.




Now that's just not true, there's _lots_ of different ways to be an dickhead.


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## manticle (21/10/10)

Nick JD said:


> I don't do them and my beer is fine. Big Whoop to protein rests - waste of time.
> 
> Great for those who want to be head brewer. Not necessary for those who don't have their head in their arse.



I've made great beer without them too Nick. I don't think anyone suggested you need to - I was just relating my experience with them contradicting the idea that they will necessarily suffer if you do them.

Head in arse or just trying different techniques in order to see what happens?

Not necessary? Of course not. What's necessary got to do with anything?


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## MHB (21/10/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Now that's just not true, there's _lots_ of different ways to be an dickhead.


Sorry TB I think our good mate is using all of them.

MHB


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## hsb (12/11/10)

I made my Weisse (with Protein Rest) and tried out raising the Mash temp a little (5C) using my Immersion Heater as per earlier in thread. For me... a bit of a disaster! It scorched very badly quite quickly. Left a strong scorched grain smell in Mash and stuck firm to Immersion Heater which I foolishly plunged straight back into HLT ruining the water in there as well (went murky and smelt like stale bongwater instantly). Could well just be my own particular Immersion Heater, I tried to keep it on the move constantly but it scorched within 3-4 minutes. YMMV I don't mind having given it a try.

Oh well, worth a try cheers, back to trying for Mash temperatures from fiddly additions of hot/cold water, always my weakest suit on brewdays. (/me wishes for surprise RIMS/HERMS Xmas present)

Hopefully it hasn't damaged my Weisse too much, it still had a bit of a scorched aroma at the beginning of the boil but seemed to disappear by the end. 

Following on from my underattenuated, diacetyl-fest Pilsner I'm forcing down at the moment, I am hoping for Xmas glories on brewdays to rekindle my enthusiasm/confidence.


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## manticle (12/11/10)

hsb said:


> I made my Weisse (with Protein Rest) and tried out raising the Mash temp a little (5C) using my Immersion Heater as per earlier in thread. For me... a bit of a disaster! It scorched very badly quite quickly. Left a strong scorched grain smell in Mash and stuck firm to Immersion Heater which I foolishly plunged straight back into HLT ruining the water in there as well (went murky and smelt like stale bongwater instantly). Could well just be my own particular Immersion Heater, I tried to keep it on the move constantly but it scorched within 3-4 minutes. YMMV I don't mind having given it a try.



Interesting. I get nothing like that with mine. I also plunge mine into the HLT and just get water with a couple of bits of grain in it. Curious to know what causes such different experience.

For a weizen maybe next time try a decoction or two whill will add some lovely melanoidens in there.


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## hsb (12/11/10)

Mine is an older one off eBay, a Grimwood. The coils are very tight, that may be the trouble, no space for the grains to escape, the whole thing seemed to clag up quite quickly.
I'm sure the HLT stuff up was due to it being totally coated like a big stick of burnt porridge. It was worth a try. I might try uncoiling it a little to allow space.
I do hate hitting temps in the Mash, in so much as I can hate anything to do with making beer! 

Decoction could be good, maybe next time. This was my first wheat beer and only my third All Grain 'lager' of any kind, I've yet to really nail a Lager so fingers crossed it comes out well.


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## Droopy Brew (28/10/15)

Bringing up an old thread here- and one that I have read a number of times when working out my mash sched for Weizens.

I had an interesting conversation today in my HBS with a guy that is very well regarded and gave me some good feedback.

The beer tasted was Les the weizguys awesome Schnieder wiezen- have brewed it a number of times and it is a must do. Anyway the mash sched was 15 @ 53C, [email protected] 63C deconcoct to 72C for 15min. The beer has a great balance of clove and banana and the body is pretty good.

This guy gave it some good wraps, saying that it was one of the best weizens he has had in a long time but picking it appart he thought the body and head retention could have been stronger and the decoction qualities were hidden. After telling him my mash sched he related a story from one of the countries best brewers years ago (who's name I have forgotten). Anyway the guts was he looked at this guys weizen and said have you done a protien mash? He had and the guru had picked up on the size and tightness of the bubbles (not tight enough or small enough he reckoned). he said never do a Protien mash on a wheat beer- you want the long chain protiens in there for that extra body that makes a wiezen a weizen.

He also suggests letting it cool slowly to promote less cold break, again to retain some protiens in the wort.

So this flys against a lot of what is said here and it does make some sense to me and I know this guy is well regarded. I am also aware of the whole opinion/arsehole ratio.

I thought it might be a point worth discussing 5 years on from this original thread and see if thinking has changed or if others agree with this.


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## antiphile (28/10/15)

It's my understanding that the so-called "protein rest" is a bit of a misnomer. Yet in my small mind it does perform some useful functions, and I have to admit I do it more often than not in mashes. (See, for example, a short article called _The Science of Step Mashing_.)

Though apart from the advantage of breaking down some longer chained proteins (which is very advantageous), I like to do a step at that temp when I dough in (unless I want to do an acid rest) in order to minimise the risk of dough balls, since this is below gelatinisation temp for most grains.

But for dummies like me, it's a lot of learn from experience; and, if you're on a good thing, stick to it!


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## mfeighan (28/10/15)

Yeah i agree with antiphile, i usually mash in at target temp of 55 (after a suggestion from nev), stir get the chunks etc out and allow my grain bed to set before adding heat with my rims. Usually takes about 5-10 mins to settle and run clear which is when i add heat for the sacc step(s). After looking at the link i guess i am doing the right thing as i havent had a hazy beer in a very long time.


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## Droopy Brew (28/10/15)

Thats true, but to a certain extent hazy is what you are chasing with a Weizen which was the thinking behind avoiding a P rest with this particular style.


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## TheWiggman (29/10/15)

As an aside, for almost every brew I strike at 59-60°C for a combined protein-glucose rest at 55°C. I use HERMS, so the HERMS water is already sitting at a temp higher than the rest temp. I mash in, rest for 5 mins, then slowly bring back the flow to prevent getting a stuck mash. By the time I've reached full flow 8-10 mins is up and I can step up to my sacc rest temp.
I've often read - on AHB - that combined with a 72°C for 15-20 mins, a protein rest aids in head retention. I can't confirm this with honest results, but I did so with a lager (96% pils, 4% crystal, sugaz) and last night the beer maintained a thin head from top to bottom.


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## Nizmoose (29/10/15)

hsb said:


> I made my Weisse (with Protein Rest) and tried out raising the Mash temp a little (5C) using my Immersion Heater as per earlier in thread. For me... a bit of a disaster! It scorched very badly quite quickly. Left a strong scorched grain smell in Mash and stuck firm to Immersion Heater which I foolishly plunged straight back into HLT ruining the water in there as well (went murky and smelt like stale bongwater instantly). Could well just be my own particular Immersion Heater, I tried to keep it on the move constantly but it scorched within 3-4 minutes. YMMV I don't mind having given it a try.
> 
> Oh well, worth a try cheers, back to trying for Mash temperatures from fiddly additions of hot/cold water, always my weakest suit on brewdays. (/me wishes for surprise RIMS/HERMS Xmas present)
> 
> ...


I've had the same experience as manticle, I love my immersion heater, use it for 3-4 steps and always make sure I'm stirring the mash really well for as long as the heater is on and then once my step is hit I unplug it keep stirring for a few seconds then take it out and put it into a bucket of water to stop it burning up. The only thing I can think of that might be scorching your mash is that I BIAB so my water to grain ratio is quite large (6ishL per kg), not sure what method manticle uses but if you were doing a traditional 2-3L per kg then I can perhaps envisage a problem occurring with scorching?


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## dannymars (29/10/15)

getting back to the topic at hand.... I cannot find the answer to the obvious question... What does a protein rest do to the finished beer? more hazy? less hazy? does it matter how long you do it? 

I do them, but only because I like doughing in lower as it's easier to stir and not so hot as you can burn yourself it it splashes around etc. I still get chill haze in my beer, but I don't really care about that tbh.


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## Nizmoose (29/10/15)

The point as far as I'm aware is to improve head retention, not sure about haze. And also people seem to use it as a way to hydrate the mash before reaching sacch temps. Also seems that a short (5-10 Min) rest is recommended before you start getting negative effects. So in short: good for hydration, head retention, don't do it for too long.

EDIT: I should mention I'm not sure if I'm using the term hydration correctly but if I'm not mistaken I believe the purpose is to disperse enzymes throughout the mash before reaching sacc. temps??? Manticle?


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## klangers (4/11/15)

Let's get some science involved.

A "protein rest" is simply holding the mash at the temperature at which beta glucan is most efficiently/rapidly broken down (into sugars). Really we should be calling it a beta glucan rest, as it's not as if ALL proteins are being broken down at this temperature. Alpha and beta amylases have their own particular ways of breaking down starch, and neither enzyme breaks down ALL starch.

Just like anything, it's not as simple as saying "never ever do a protein rest" or "always do a protein rest". It simply depends on your ingredients and your target beer.

Now, beta glucan is a family of proteins which occur in plant materials. Oats, for example, is very high in beta glucans. Barley and wheat have thousands of proteins in them aside from beta glucan. One very prominent protein which is currently very popular to talk about and pretend not eating it is healthy is *gluten*. Gluten won't be broken down with beta glucan in a protein rest and therefore will still give you the typical protein effect: stronger head, bigger mouthfeel and more numerous and powerful farts.

If you don't do a protein rest whilst mashing oats, you may have a bad time with stuck sparges and all sorts because the beta glucan has not been broken down (and by now at saccrification temperatures the enzyme which does that is denatured). On the other hand, if you have an excessively long protein rest you may find that the smoothness that oats adds is removed.

Beta glucan tends to be more concentrated in under-modified malts. However, well modified malts may have beta glucan levels that are higher than the brewer would like. Now, there are many reasons why malts are *deliberately under-modified *(namely various attempts at reducing malting losses or preserving high enzyme levels). Traditionally, pilsner malts were under modified. Now that everyone is chasing the dollar$ these days all base malts are well modified, and pilsner malts are essentially just lighter-kilned versions of pale ale malts.

Moral of the story: protein rests typically break down beta glucan. If you don't expect high beta glucan levels in your grist (ie no oats, rye, under-modified malts or various adjuncts), there probably isn't a need to reduce the beta glucan levels.

Also: haze is cause by multitudes of proteins; not just beta glucan.


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## krausenhaus (19/11/15)

Just to clarify, beta-glucans are polysaccharides, not proteins. At protein rest temperatures, you have proteolytic enzymes working on protein and beta-glucanases working on beta-glucans. Targeting long proteins is for improving haze & head retention, while for beta glucans it's gummy mashes.


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## Adr_0 (24/11/15)

My understanding is that with modern malts the rest in the 45-55°C is completely unnecessary and detrimental. The purpose of this rest is to promote activity of enzymes that will break down protein into the lowest molecular weight region, i.e. make them soluble in the beer rather than floaty. These shorter/lower molecular weight proteins are broken down from larger proteins, a lot of which are the 'head forming/retaining' proteins - hence why a rest at this temp would be detrimental for modern malts.

As many have said, economy/business drives refinement of a product and most (every?) maltsters recognise that if they can carry out this breakdown when malting the barley, it saves the brewer doing it. It has always puzzled me why Weyermann recommend a mash temp of 52°C for their malts but they seem to be pretty well modified.

This range (45-55°C), as the science stands, would be required for oats, flaked barley and I guess rye. How much can you add to the grist before you need to do a rest? Who knows... I guess you can do a slow pass through this range if you only have a few percent.

The actual proportion of protein in the malt/adjunct is probably the primary thing to consider if you're going to do a protein rest. 9-10% would be normal - NOT requiring a rest at all - while 11-13% is high. Aussie/British/American malt falls into the first bracket while oats are probably 13%.

Greg Noonan references the Kolbach ratio in making the decision on protein rest temperature: if the Kolbach ratio (ratio of soluble to insoluble nitrogen) is below 37%, a protein rest of 50°C is suitable; and if the ratio is 37-40% then this rest should be done at 55°C or potentially slightly higher. This is recognised as being within the beta amylase region, so modify your sacch schedule if you are looking at spending more than 15min here.

German Munich and wheat malt potentially push the 11.5-13% range and pils is closer to the normal range, being 9-11.5%, so a protein rest "should" be done for these. The Kolbach index on all of these malts is potentially pretty high, so really the 55°+ range is where you want to be not 50-52°C. Funny, it's almost like Manticle knows what he's talking about when he says 5-10min at 55°C does the trick.

For oats, flaked barley, etc. you should probably spend 10min or so around 50-52°C.

I'm doing two dunkels this weekend and will aim for 56°C for 15min and decoctions, as there's a 60ish% Munich II in there: highish protein (up to 12.5) but lots of soluble nitrogen (Kolbach 38-47%).

Would your beer be delicious without doing these rests? Yes, of course...


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## /// (27/12/15)

Most of the time it is focused on processing, better viscosity in the mash tun and to also save filters, particularly if you use sterile cartridges or lenticular pad filters

Malt with high better glucans causes me all sorts of grief on the mash filter at work. Aussie ale malts are less modified than Pils and slows down the transfer thru the mash filter and effects extract. You can see the BG and protein on the sheets when we dump
Out the grain


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## RelaxedBrewer (17/5/16)

I know this is an old thread but I just came across it today.

The post by klangers got a lot of likes and it seemed as though people were accepting it as fact. Nothing personal, however I am pretty sure it is not factually correct.


klangers said:


> Let's get some science involved.
> 
> A "protein rest" is simply holding the mash at the temperature at which beta glucan is most efficiently/rapidly broken down (into sugars). Really we should be calling it a beta glucan rest, as it's not as if ALL proteins are being broken down at this temperature.


A protein rest is not the same as a beta-glucan rest. We are not simply trying to break down beta-glucan with a protein rest.
Beta-glucans are broken down by beta-glutanases and as brewers we care most about 1,4 beta-gulcanase which has an optimal operating temperature of ~45C. So if you are worried about making porridge in your mash with a high amount of unmalted grains you should mash rest at ~45C.

A protein rest achieves a different outcome. During a protein rest two different enzymes (Proteinase and Peptidease) are operational that effect proteins. Peptidease as an optimal temperature of ~50C and converts medium and short chain proteins into their components. Proteinase has an optimal temperature of ~58C and breaks long chain proteins down into medium chain proteins (medium chain proteins are positive for mouthfeel and head retention while long chain proteins can cause haze and stability issues).

Some beta-glucanase activity will occur during a protein rest as beta-glucanase is active up to ~60C, but it will be less optimal then at a lower temp (~45C) and not the primary reason why you should be doing a protein rest. 

I know I am late to the party, but I thought I should clear this up for anyone else that comes along after trying to find out about protein rest.


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## klangers (17/5/16)

All good mate, I appreciate the clarification. I got confused with the chemical names. being a mechanical engineer, this brewing chemistry thing is quite new to me, but getting there!.


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## MHB (17/5/16)

Its a lot more complicated than a Do/Don't. Considering how well modified modern malt is (Modified in terms of break down cell walls, glucans and proteins) good maltsters now have such control of the processes that they can turn out pretty much whatever you want. What the big brewers want is simple to use malt that has a high yield and that's exactly what they get. The other specification is the right range of protein degradation products for both body and head.

For Ale brewing with little or no adjunct I think its pretty pointless. Ale with a bunch of adjunct (say Pacific Ale) then both Glucan and Protein rests are beneficial.
For Lager, well a loud maybe, not really necessary, tho a decoction still has some advantages but I wouldn't bother for anything other than a very special beer of using a floor malted grain, chit malt...

The two best head building proteins are Protein-Z and LTP1, the much talked about Z is according to the latest research nearly all produced as a byproduct of B-Amylase production during germination, not by a rest at 72oC , Lipidase Transfer Protein 1 (LPT1) is also made during germination. Too long a proteinase rest can degrade these and other medium molecular weight proteins and actually reduce the heading potential of beer (yes its a measurable parameter) significantly. The high MW protein is coagulated during the boil, so little point to trying to degrade that.

There are actually four types of Protease active at/around the temperature most people call a protein rest, don't worry there are over 20 inside a yeast cell, some of which are real head destroyers (Protease-A being the worst) and one of the main reasons we rack/dump old yeast.

I think I would give it a miss, without a dam good reason not to.
Mark


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## Jack of all biers (17/5/16)

krausenhaus said:


> Just to clarify, beta-glucans are polysaccharides, not proteins. At protein rest temperatures, you have proteolytic enzymes working on protein and beta-glucanases working on beta-glucans. Targeting long proteins is for improving haze & head retention, while for beta glucans it's gummy mashes.


Pretty sure it was already cleared up by the above post, but less waffle. MMMhm waffle :icon_drool2:


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## Let's Brew Beer (2/4/17)

HoppingMad said:


> Ok, I've come to the understanding that to make a good AG wheat beer I need to do a protein rest.
> 
> Trouble is I have no idea what one is. Or how to do one. Or what the benefit of doing one is.
> 
> ...


Theres a good AG Wheat Beer???


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## Bribie G (2/4/17)

Style.
Not 100% wheat.


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