# Style Of The Week 7/6/06 - German Pilsner



## Stuster (7/6/06)

As has been pointed out to me by a veteran brewer, the cold weather is a perfect time to brew lagers so this week we'll be looking at the German Pilsner style. The BJCP style description is below, from here. The style differs from the original Bohemian Pilsner (like Pilsner Urquell) with the most obvious difference being the hops used.

So how do you do your German Pils. What grains do you use? What hops and when? What kits have you found to be good or bad? What bits do you add to these kits? What is your favourite yeast for this style? What commercial beers show off this style best? It may be helpful to describe your fermentation process. How long do you lager for? What temp? etc. etc. Let's share our knowledge and drink better beers. :beerbang: 




> 2A. German Pilsner (Pils)
> 
> Aroma: Typically features a light grainy malt character (sometimes Graham cracker-like) and distinctive flowery or spicy noble hops. Clean, no fruity esters, no diacetyl. May have an initial sulfury aroma (from water and/or yeast) and a low background note of DMS (from pils malt).
> 
> ...



Let the debate begin.


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## Tony (7/6/06)

Lots of pils malt, some wheat to 5% maybe.

A bit of vienna to 20% is nice too.

Hellertau is my fav german hop and tettnanger is great in it too.

WLP 830 Is perfect. Brew at 10 deg, lager for atleast 2 weeks at almost freezing.

just the usuall stuff 

cheers


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## mje1980 (7/6/06)

100% pils makes a good pils as well. Dead easy. 2278 is a good yeast too.


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## bindi (7/6/06)

Tony said:


> Lots of pils malt, some wheat to 5% maybe.
> 
> A bit of vienna to 20% is nice too.
> 
> ...



Much the same as Tonys but with Wyeast 2124 or 2206 [have not tried WLP 830 same as Wyeast?] a little carrapils is nice.


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## Trough Lolly (7/6/06)

A German Pilsner! :blink: What about the original pilsner! Oh for F88K's sake...there's no such thing....! 
...
...
Just kidding!!   

This is a great style and one of my favourites - but to be honest, I've been making them in the dead of winter here in Canberra since I've never had a temp controller for the fridge and I was never much of a fan of pear juice...until dear old Mum did the right thing and bought me a temp controller as an excellent birthday pressie! :lol: 

I use the KISS principle with these - 90% or more Weyermann Pils malt with a touch of Weyermann melanoidin or caramunich and a smidgen of wheat malt if I want a touch of colour and body in the final product. Balance the malt with plenty of fresh Hallertau for bittering and a decent whack of Tettnang for flavour and you're on the way, IMHO...
I'd also like to shamelessly and without any authorisation, plug a German Pils recipe that Ray Mills posted on the OzCraftbrewer forum - Click here for the recipe list - Ray's North German Pilsner is under Section 07. Pale Lager - and let me assure you that there was a savage knife fight amongst those of us lucky enough to steward the 2004 Nationals and get a taste of Ray's Pils after the judging for that flight had completed!

Keen to see other brewers recipies on this great style! C'mon, dust off the recipe book folks!!

Cheers,
TL


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## JasonY (7/6/06)

Well I haven't done too much experimentation with this one but I have brewed about 4 batches of 100% Weyermann Pils (sometimes 200g of carapils), SaazB and Wyeast 2247 European Lager and it is one of my favourite beers. Can't beat one of these on a hot summers day!

Upgrading my cold fermenting capacity to 50L so I can do double batches of these since they take a bit longer.


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## Tony (7/6/06)

I have been using the WLP 833 german bock yeast latly. I love it.

here is my little Ger Pils recipe.

cheers

German Pils

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

02-A Pilsner, German Pilsner (Pils)

Min OG: 1.044 Max OG: 1.050
Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 45
Min Clr: 4 Max Clr: 10 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 52.00 Wort Size (L): 52.00
Total Grain (kg): 10.60
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 11.80
Anticipated EBC: 6.3
Anticipated IBU: 41.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
84.9 9.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
5.7 0.60 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.040 4
9.4 1.00 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 7

Pot


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## Stuster (7/6/06)

Tony said:


> Pot



Using the other member of the hop family I see.  But what schedule, any particular variety? :lol:

I see you used SaazB, JasonY. Has anybody else used any of the NZ hops such as Pacific Hallertau for this style? (I only ask as I have some in the freezer waiting their turn.)


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## Trough Lolly (7/6/06)

Looks like Tony's got his own little "Strawberry Fields Pilsner" happening, based on the hop schedule!!
TL


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## crozdog (7/6/06)

I've been doing a couple of Pils recently & plan another this weekend. I use the following for a double batch

8kg Joe White Pilsner malt
0.9kg Joe White Munich
0.2kg Carapils

40g SAAZ B @ 60 mins
45g Czech Saaz @ 20 mins
30g Czech Saaz @ 5 mins

using White Labs yeast either Southern German Lager (WLP 838) or Czech Budejovice Lager (WLP 802). Yumm

Recipe courtesy of Gerard.

Cheers

Crozdog


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## Asher (7/6/06)

Back in the days of 'pre advertising' h34r: there was a Pilsener brewing champ called Ray Mills... Do a search around the net & you'll dig up a copy of his 2004 ABC 1st place getting 'North German Pilsener'. From memory it was a very simple recipe and like Jason, Rays recipe is a modern interpretation of the style. Straw in colour with no roasted grains apart from some Carapils. Hops being the driving character....

I'm making one on a WY2007 Pilsen yeast cake next weekend myself... Although I prefer Hallertau & its Clones where Ray is a Tettnanger man... :beer: 

Ray - I'd love to hear how this recipe has progressed in the last couple of years?

Asher for now


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## Steve (7/6/06)

To be honest I dont think Ive had a German Pilsener? except commercial of course. I've done a couple of the Grumpys MasterBrew Schultzheiss German Lagers and they were pearlers. Might sound like a dumb question but whats the difference between a German Lager and a German Pilsener if by the looks of some of the recipes a lot of people yeast liquid lager yeasts? :blink: 
Cheers
Steve


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## Stuster (7/6/06)

Well a pilsener is a lager, but a lager isn't necessarily a pilsener. Clear?  

I'm not sure what kind of lager that Grumpy's MB is. It could be lots of things, Dortmunder Export perhaps? Have a look at the BJCP style guidelines. The first five are the lager styles, with lots of sub-styles. Today's is just 2A.


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## Steve (7/6/06)

clear as mud  
Cheers
Steve


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## agraham (7/6/06)

Nice idea Steve...I put down a simple german pils on Saturday and she is bubbling away as we speak:

4.5 kg Weyermann Pils
500g weyermann light munich

Hallertau to 30 IBU
Wyeast 2308 munich lager.

2 weeks @ 10 degrees
1 week in secondary @ 10 degrees

Bottle and enjoy.

I dont have a fridge to lager the beer, that is a wait in progress.

Andy


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## warrenlw63 (7/6/06)

If we're looking for good commercial expamples of a Nth. German Pils. Jever gets my vote.  

Mmmm..... Hops INXS. :beerbang: 

Warren -


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## smashed jaffa (7/6/06)

I'm putting down one of these this weekend as follows;

3kgs Weyermann Pilsner
0.5 kgs Weyermann Vienna
0.25 carapils

Tettnang hops

Wyeast 2124

Single infsuion mash. This is my second AG.. Yippee.  

I kind of like this style and have been impressed by the redoak Bavarian Pilsner they have and hope to eventually by way of trial and error get something similar. Unless someone out there has a better idea ( which is most probable!)  

Smashed


Q does anyone know how to change the text below my picture? After tasting the reards from the dark arts (AG) I have no intentions of doing anymore kits!! h34r:


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## Kai (7/6/06)

I still haven't brewed one, but I have a recipe planned out for the coming months:

Onk Valley Pils

OG 1.047
40 IBU
8.5 EBC

90% Weyermann Pils
7.5% Weyermann Munich
2.5% Weyermann Acidulated

Hallertauer Magnum (13.9%) bittering
1g/L Hersbrucker plugs flameout
0.33g/L Tettnanger flameout
0.33g/L Spalt flameout

2278 Czech Pils

50:50 tapwater and springwater

65C mash
Ferment at 10C, raise to 18ish for a week or so near end of ferment.

Hops are mainly chosen to use up what's left in my collection.


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## Trent (7/6/06)

Well well
Seeings as my fridge is sitting happily at 8.5C, and has been for the last couple of weeks, I decided to go against the fibre of my brewing, and go for a lager. I had decided to to a German Pils after tasting a delicious one at our BJCP meet a few months back (weltenburger?). I was actually gonna post a few questions tonight about this beer, so thanks for whoever it was that started this thread (Stuster?). Anyway, I was probbaly just gonna go for 95% JW pils, 5% carapils, and all hallertauer. My main question was going to be, do I HAVE to do a triple decoction (never attempted one before), or can I feasably get away with a step mash (50C-66C-75C mashout)? That said, will a single infusion at 66C be good enough with JW pils, as I am assuming it is pretty well modified. If going for a single infusion, will it be malty enough? Another question I was discussing with Chilled this arvo regards cold break. Does cold break affect the flavour of the beer at all, being as there is nowhere for bad flavours to hide? I use a CFC, and wondered if it wouldnt be smarter to chill and then leave overnight in the fridge at 8.5C, and then rack off break material into the fermenter, aerate and pitch? Or is it fine to leave the cold break in the beer and pitch straight away (I can get my CFC output down to about 8C). I am sure these questions have fairly basic answers, and are rudimentary level, but I am new to lagers, and would hate to muff it, with all the extra work that goes into em and all. I am working on getting a pils culture, so it may be a few weeks, but want to be all knowed up for when I get round to it. Big thanks again for starting this thread :super: 
All the best
Trent
EDIT - As far as diacetyl rest goes, if I raise it to ambient when it is 3/4 attenuated, and leave it for 2-3 days, will that be enough? And do I even NEED a diacetyl rest if I start and keep my ferment and 8-9C?


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## Jazman (7/6/06)

bascialy i use 95% pils and the rest carapils and bitter to around 35 ibu using tettnanger or bitter with perle or northern brewer and finish of with tettnanger . I did one last year r with southern cross hops wich was good but it would be better with the german noble hops


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## Kai (7/6/06)

Out of curiosity, why do so many of the recipes here include carapils? I thought German Pils was supposed to be fairly dry.


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## wee stu (7/6/06)

Kai said:


> why do so many of the recipes here include carapils?



Magic foam bullets?


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## Kai (7/6/06)

I find even just 100% pils works well enough for that... if you leave it long enough to carb up.


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## wee stu (7/6/06)

Kai said:


> I find even just 100% pils works well enough for that... if you leave it long enough to carb up.


 
Maybe they have been reading Miller's _Continental Pilsner_ in the Classic Beer Style Series.

He reckons "Probably the most useful speciality malt for Pilsener(sic) beers is CaraPils ... It enhances body or "mouthfeel" of a beer and also enhances foam stability. It does not affect color (not even worth a (sic)  ) or aroma"

Not a beer I brew Kai, but I am with you on this one. I reckon a pure malt bill will have the foam stability index soaring without additional help.

Mind you this is from a brewer who has difficulty raising foam on a wheat beer h34r:


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## WillM (7/6/06)

Here's the last one I did, not sure how much to style it is, but it tasted great. The hopping had a nice lemony tang in the last few bottles.




Wecks
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 28/02/2006 
Style: German Pilsner (Pils) Brewer: Will 
Batch Size: 22.50 L Assistant Brewer: 
Boil Volume: 29.49 L Boil Time: 75 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 % Equipment: Esky - 40l Warrior Boiler 
Actual Efficiency: 67.0 % 


Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.00 kg Pilsner (Powells) (3.0 EBC) Grain 90.9 % 
0.50 kg Rice, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 9.1 % 
12.00 gm Northern Brewer [10.00%] (60 min) Hops 13.4 IBU 
20.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [5.20%] (20 min) Hops 7.0 IBU 
5.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [5.20%] (75 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 3.3 IBU 
10.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [5.20%] (5 min) Hops 1.2 IBU 
0.59 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Gelatin (Secondary 0.0 hours) Misc 
1 Pkgs Southern German Lager (White Labs #WLP838) [Starter 600 ml] [Cultured] Yeast-Lager 

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.052 SG (1.044-1.050 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.050 SG 
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.014 SG (1.008-1.013 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG 
Estimated Color: 6.3 EBC (3.9-9.9 EBC) Color [Color] 
Bitterness: 25.0 IBU (25.0-45.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 1.5 AAU 
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.0 % (4.4-5.2 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 5.0 % 
Actual Calories: 468 cal/l 


Mash Profile Name: 64-70 Decoction - Dry Mash Tun Weight: 2.00 kg 
Mash Grain Weight: 5.50 kg Mash PH: 5.4 PH 
Grain Temperature: 20.0 C Sparge Temperature: 75.0 C 
Sparge Water: 18.50 L Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE 

Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Low Saccharification Add 16.50 L of water at 70.8 C 64.0 C 30 min 
High Saccharification Decoct 3.43 L of mash and boil it 70.0 C 60 min 


Mash Notes
Lazy, single decocotion. Should give a dry Pils style

Decocotion (35 mins):
- 5 mins boil to 70C
- 10 mins rest at 70C
- 10 mins to the boil
- 10 minute boil



Notes
Apporox 5kg - used the bathroom scales to measure, so it could have been any from 4.5 - 5.5kg - experimineted with hopping schedule
Racked 13/3/6 - lagered at 0C-2C
Bottled 5/4/6


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## Tony (7/6/06)

Firstly..... smashed jaffa.

You are stuck with what it says till you hit 500 posts, then you can change it.

Keep posting 

My "strawberry fields" pils post was cut short by a network crash at work that happens at lunchtime every day when everyone gets on the net.

Here it the whole story.

Hops and all.

cheers

German Pils

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 52.00 Wort Size (L): 52.00
Total Grain (kg): 10.60
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 11.80
Anticipated EBC: 6.3
Anticipated IBU: 38.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
84.9 9.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
5.7 0.60 kg. JWM Wheat Malt Australia 1.040 4
9.4 1.00 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 7

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
100.00 g. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 4.60 27.8 First WH
40.00 g. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 4.60 6.1 20 min.
40.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet 3.10 4.1 20 min.
40.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet 3.10 0.0 0 min.
40.00 g. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 4.60 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP833 German Bock


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## timmy (7/6/06)

Is it just me or does anyone else have difficulty getting any malt flavour out of powells pilsner malt?
I've done a double and single decoction, single step at 66 and 68, used WLP830 and 838 and still no real Euro malt.
I'm putting it down to the malt itself.


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## Tony (7/6/06)

JW pils is great. I have used Hoepfner pils and the weyermann bohemien pils (yuk) and the JW is a great product.

Try adding some munich or vienna and a decoction mash with 50, 66 and 76 deg temp steps.

Very nice.

Some people say to use melanoiden but i find it a bit "false" in flavor. You cant beat good malt decoction mashed.

cheers


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## WillM (8/6/06)

I've made a lot of straight 5kg powells beers, pretty low effectiency but they ahve always tasted clean and crisp

Not a big malt taste, but subtle. Guess it comes down to personal taste


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## Darren (8/6/06)

Tony said:


> I have used Hoepfner pils and the weyermann bohemien pils (yuk) and the JW is a great product.
> 
> 
> cheers




Hey Tony,

Why do you say that? I have a bag of it but haven't used it yet.


cheers

Darren


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## Tony (8/6/06)

Well i guess i should have elaborated on that a bit more hey.

Sorry.

I made a couple of Light pils type beers with it and didnt like the results.

On the other hand i made a schwarzbier and an Ameriucan Brown Ale with it and found it was nice in the darker beer.

I think it needs a bit more time to age now that i think about it. I also made my Belgian tripple with it and its mice now that its a year old. It has won a few medals for me too.

Guess the yuk came from me thinking of using it in a pale beer but thats just me......... I dont like cascade !!!!!!

We all have different tastes.

I did find it had a brittle husk and endosperm (is that how you spell it )

It tended to smash up easilly into powder on settings that produces a perfect grist on JW and other base malts. Try running a bit through the mill forst to see if it needs opening up a tad.

cheers


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## Darren (8/6/06)

Cheers,
I really can't wait to try it.

Darren


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## Tony (8/6/06)

one other thing.

I found in the pale beers it gave me bad chill haze.

I never gave it a good protein rest though.

cheers and enjoy


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## Foz (9/6/06)

1x DrinkArt "Original Bravarian Pilsner"

1x Kilo of Dextrose

Saf37/70?

In bottles atm (until 20th of June) but just cracked one - not much of a beer taste tester but very sweet at the minute. Still has a lot of potential! Can't wait til the two weeks (minimum) is up!

Sorry its not AG but hey, i thought i'd add it for the K&K brewers out there!


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## Trough Lolly (9/6/06)

Trent said:


> ...Anyway, I was probbaly just gonna go for 95% JW pils, 5% carapils, and all hallertauer. My main question was going to be, do I HAVE to do a triple decoction (never attempted one before), or can I feasably get away with a step mash (50C-66C-75C mashout)? That said, will a single infusion at 66C be good enough with JW pils, as I am assuming it is pretty well modified. If going for a single infusion, will it be malty enough?


A single infusion mash with JW pils should be fine - that said, you can get more melanoidins and a darker lager if you do a decoction, but a triple decoction whilst making the brewday challenging and fun, is not essential!


Trent said:


> Another question I was discussing with Chilled this arvo regards cold break. Does cold break affect the flavour of the beer at all, being as there is nowhere for bad flavours to hide? I use a CFC, and wondered if it wouldnt be smarter to chill and then leave overnight in the fridge at 8.5C, and then rack off break material into the fermenter, aerate and pitch? Or is it fine to leave the cold break in the beer and pitch straight away (I can get my CFC output down to about 8C).


Without going into total beergeek mode, I don't believe that having cold break (flocculated protein, polyphenol molecules and carbohydrates / beta glucans) is such a bad thing to have in the fermenter - proteolytic enzymes hydrolise the protein molecules into their constituent amino acids (aka Proteolysis, not to be confused with Autolysis!). Amino Acids are a major nutrient for yeast, and as we know, the key to a good lager, other than patience, is plenty of healthy, viable yeast. 
So, don't sweat cold break - sure, you might get a brighter beer if you rack off the cold break, after it's settled, but I lose enough wort during transfers without leaving more wort behind in order to keep the cold break out of the fermenter. And the longer you leave your wort to chill down, before racking off the cold break, the greater the risk of bacterial infection whilst the wort is in such a particularly vulnerable state.



Trent said:


> EDIT - As far as diacetyl rest goes, if I raise it to ambient when it is 3/4 attenuated, and leave it for 2-3 days, will that be enough? And do I even NEED a diacetyl rest if I start and keep my ferment and 8-9C?


This very issue was the subject of some discussion on an earlier thread - here...
Cheers,
TL


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## AndrewQLD (9/6/06)

I'll throw my recipe in, all Powells malt with a touch of Powells caramalt to up the maltiness a bit. I find withh all the hops and using just <100% pilsner malt I don't need any carapils to give foam stability, I get heaps of foam as it is.

Cheers
Andrew

Style: German Pilsner (Pils)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 29.95 L
Estimated OG: 1.049 SG
Estimated Color: 7.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 39.9 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5.00 kg Pilsner Malt Powells (3.0 EBC) Grain 95.2 % 
0.25 kg Caramalt Powells (30.0 EBC) Grain 4.8 % 
40.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 17.8 IBU 
25.00 gm Hallertauer [5.80%] (60 min) Hops 14.6 IBU 
30.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (15 min) Hops 7.5 IBU 
15.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (5 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep)Hops - 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) [StarterYeast-Lager 


Mash Schedule: Batch Sparge light body
Total Grain Weight: 5.25 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 13.12 L of water at 76.0 C 67.0 C 60 min


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## sluggerdog (9/6/06)

Probably the style I brew most so I'll add my 2 cents in.

I When I first started brewing german pils brews I was using JW malts so my grain was very simple either 100% pilsner malt or 95% pilsner malt and 5% carapils.

Now for the last year I suppose I have been using powells and I find it lacks the malty flavour of JW (having never used Hoepfner or weyermann but I would guess these would be even better).

Anyway my basic recipe using powells is:

80% Powells Pilsner
15% Powells Vienna or Munich (whatever I have on hand at the time)
5% JW Carapils

Hops

Either Tettang or Halleratu (both from germany only)
IBU to 30 with only 2 additions, the second at 15 mins left
being only 15 grams the rest at 60 mins to make up the 30 IBU brew.

Yeast

I find danish lager best or budvar is also good.

Usually ferment at around 10C for 7 days, rest for 3 days at 18C, into a cube for 2 weeks, after 1 week in the cube I add gelatine, at the end of 2 weeks, into a keg gas and try, normally I need to leave the keg in the fridge for a few more weeks to crisp up but sometimes I feel it's really not needed.

Pretty simple and works for me, I'd brew this style probably atleast once a month, I like to always have 1 keg of this on tap at all times as my non homebrew mates will drink it.


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## tangent (9/6/06)

great thread guys - these style threads are a good way of getting an overall feel and tips for the style.
i'm in relatively new territory with this being my 1st winter having a decent go at lagers.
Not really my favourite style but it's a new challenge and a heap more to learn.
I've been spoiled by using Weyermann Pils and Bo-Pils as my first try with Pilsner malts. I'm getting a great malty flavour (as much as I'd need for the style). If you want more, go the Vienna. It's a fantastic smelling malt. Maybe wait for the Oktoberfest thread on that one.
I should add that grinding the grain just before dough-in keeps my mash smelling really good. I don't know what it'd be like brewing this style of beer without the fresh crush.

cheers


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## WillM (9/6/06)

It's certainly my favourite style. Really simple pils malt with Hallertau flavour. I think of it like a good Becks, with a bit more hops. I haven't been fortunate enough to try better examples.

Will


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## timmy (9/6/06)

As I said with the Powell's, I could never get the same malt flavour i did with the JW. I didn't elaborate on any rercipes but they all contained either light munich or melanoiden or both.

I have a nice big sack of Weyermann pils which I'll be doing 100% with the hallertau and tettnang from the bulk buy to 30IBU.


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## sluggerdog (12/11/06)

I was wondering what the thoughts were to add a little extra malty flavour to the brews?

Munich? Vienna? Caramalt? Melanoidin? Other?

I'm just mashing one in now with 10% munich, 80% pilsner and 5% Carapils but would be nice to try something different next time. Maybe 5% Melanoidin and 95% Pilsner (Weyermann of course)


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## tangent (12/11/06)

i'd go vienna instead of munich for such a light coloured beer. (but I'm such a vienna fan i've got 50kgs of it next to my puter  )
A small amount of melanoidin adds to anything IMO. I'd put it on my cornflakes if i could.
I'd agree with Kai's post (with the amount of hops as well), head should be fine without carapils.


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## Jazzafish (12/11/06)

I haven't brewed this style of beer yet... But I'm thinking of something like this to go on my to brew list:

Please give comments/advice if you think I'm way off.

North German Pils Idea

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 20.00 Wort Size (L): 20.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.05
Anticipated OG: 1.049 Plato: 12.19
Anticipated EBC: 6.1
Anticipated IBU: 36.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
92.6 3.75 kg. JW Pilsner Australia 1.039 3
3.7 0.15 kg. Weyermann Carapils Germany 1.033 4
3.7 0.15 kg. JW Vienna Australia 1.040 8

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
18.00 g. Northern Brewer Pellet 10.00 29.6 60 min.
14.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 5.50 4.3 20 min.
14.00 g. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 5.50 2.1 5 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 Unit(s)Whirfloc Tablet Fining 20 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP838 Southern German Lager


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## Steve (4/6/08)

Giving one of these a bash on the weekend. Havent brewed a pilsner for ages. Anyone tried Liberty in a German Pils?
Cheers
Steve


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## Stuster (4/6/08)

I have, Steve. The beer didn't come out that well (failed lager brewer that I am  ) but the hops were good. They also work well along with Nelson Sauvin but that's another style.


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## SJW (4/6/08)

I don't understand why people use Carapils in these beers? I have never found a need to, at least for head retantion anyway. Unless it is just used for it's light crystal properties? I think u can't beat 100%Pils malt with 60 and 20 min hop additions.

Steve


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## Steve (4/6/08)

SJW said:


> I don't understand why people use Carapils in these beers? I have never found a need to, at least for head retantion anyway. Unless it is just used for it's light crystal properties? I think u can't beat 100%Pils malt with 60 and 20 min hop additions.
> 
> Steve



yeah - im ummin and arrhing. I just want a simple pils, cant decide whether to go 100% Wey Pils or 90% with something else chucked in, three hop additions and S189
Cheers
Steve


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## bconnery (4/6/08)

I've pretty much settled on 90+% pils and the balance Munich. 
I hop with just two additions 60 and 20/15. 

Two using this bill have both turned into outstanding beers. 

One using Hallertau Aroma (Fantastic this one was. The whole keg was gone within 6 weeks of brew day) and one using B-Saaz. This will be my standard easy lager with whatever nice hop combo or single hop I'm going for. 

I've used S-189 so far but I have been meaning to try s-23 and some liquids too just for the sake of something different.


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## drsmurto (4/6/08)

I have BenHs german pils (from the 07 SA xmas case swap) in beersmith ready to brew in the next month or so, just need to get myself a lager yeast....

78% wey pils
22% wey munich I
28 IBUs with tettnang
wyeast 2206

As for carapils, bought a kg a while back and its still sealed. Wont be adding it to a pilsner anytime soon.


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## SJW (4/6/08)

> yeah - im ummin and arrhing. I just want a simple pils, cant decide whether to go 100% Wey Pils or 90% with something else chucked in, three hop additions and S189
> Cheers
> Steve


I have done this many times and the worst was 10% Melanoidin, it was way too ........wrong. Love the S-189 though.




> I've pretty much settled on 90+% pils and the balance Munich.



Although thats one I have not added (Munich) I think a little Munich 1 would be great. I just love 100% Weymanns Premium Pils with Saaz to about 40 IBU's, with the S-189 and a nice cool ferment, it does not get much better.

Steve


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## Steve (4/6/08)

Cheers Chaps - Twisted me arm. I will give it a dash of Munich 1 (10%), 60 min and 20 min of Liberty to 35 IBU with S189....IM EXCITED!


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## devo (4/6/08)

I've got 45ltrs of this stuff sitting in cold secondary at the moment and will most likely keg it tonight and let sit for another 6 weeks.


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## SJW (4/6/08)

> I've got 45ltrs of this stuff sitting in cold secondary at the moment and will most likely keg it tonight and let sit for another 6 weeks.



Does it make much diff letting it sit for 6 weeks in the keg? I have never bothered. After primary has finished it raise the temp to 18 for 48 hours then crash chill and keg, and start drinking straight away.


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## AndrewQLD (4/6/08)

SJW said:


> Does it make much diff letting it sit for 6 weeks in the keg? I have never bothered. After primary has finished it raise the temp to 18 for 48 hours then crash chill and keg, and start drinking straight away.



There is a difference between a Pilsner Lagered for a few weeks than one brewed, racked and kegged.

The hops blend in more with the malt and it seems to result in a smoother hop bitterness. The malt is more pronounced and the aroma is a nice mixture of the two. Six weeks lagering seems to be a good compromise between the rush to get it in the glass and the desire to produce an authentic tasting product, that's why when I brew Pilsners I tend to do a few batches so they can lager a little before I drink them, by the time I have finished my first unlagered one the others are just about perfect.

Andrew


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## Zwickel (4/6/08)

there is another aspect too: the most of lager and pilsener yeast strains dont taste good, they mostly taste bitter and muddy (has nothing to do with hops bitterness) and do bastardizing the real taste of the beer. That beers need a certain time to settle out and thats also the reason why pilsener beers should be filtered. Ofcourse it depends on the used yeast strain.

:icon_cheers:


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## AndrewQLD (4/6/08)

Zwickel said:


> there is another aspect too: the most of lager and pilsener yeast strains dont taste good, they mostly taste bitter and muddy (has nothing to do with hops bitterness) and do bastardizing the real taste of the beer. That beers need a certain time to settle out and thats also the reason why pilsener beers should be filtered. Ofcourse it depends on the used yeast strain.
> 
> :icon_cheers:



Perhaps that's what I have percieved myself Zwickel and mistakenly related it to blending of the malt/hops. Either way the differences are noticeable.

Andrew


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## edoeven (4/6/08)

I ran into problems with my last german pilsner - it developed a terrible green apple/actylaldehyde taste (very strong... overwhelming pretty much all the beer taste....)  I still have it with the hope of it getting better but close to tipping the keg cos I need space. Has anyone else run into this problem when brewing a lager? I have done some reading and i guess it was either a yeast issue or infection - I think infection

basics of the brew - 26L batch
90% wey pils
5% wey Vienna
5% wey munich
b-saaz at 60-40-20min
Saf S23 - one pkt pitched @ 20, cooled to 10 for primary, (2wks), rest @ 20deg for a couple of days (longer time compared to my other lagers - but I didnt think it would cause this crazy apple flavour) followed by a few weeks lagering at 1-2 deg -> into keg...
any tips? it has me scared to do another one o.0


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## razz (4/6/08)

I got a slightly sweet green apple flavour from my last pils at kegging. Not objectionable, it has mellowed over 4 weeks in the keg. I don't plan on drinking it for at least 3 months. It was my first use of Galena hops. Single malt,single hop.


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## bconnery (5/6/08)

Zwickel said:


> Ofcourse it depends on the used yeast strain.



And with this in mind I will say I believe s189 to be the king of quick lager yeasts. 
Very low in by products and seems to make a lager that is ready for drinking very early. 

I've tasted my s189 lagers at a week and found them too young. 
2 weeks later, at the outside, though and they are good to go. 

Lagers made with other yeasts have come into their own more at the timeframes people have mentioned, 4-6 weeks. 

That's my opinion and experience of course. 

Please consider if this timeframe is right for your personal tastebuds and preferences through careful experimentation and quality assurance sampling. 
Mooshells Brewery assumes no responsibility for, well anything really


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## SJW (5/6/08)

> And with this in mind I will say I believe s189 to be the king of quick lager yeasts.
> Very low in by products and seems to make a lager that is ready for drinking very early.


I would agree 100%, it my Lager yeast of choice these days. I have been known to go from grain to brain in 7 days with monotonous regularity. Even fermenting at warmer temps it's still clean. Also still goes off like a bomb at 7 or 8 deg C. I like to pitch 2 packs with S-189 though.
I will conceed that it probably does not have some of the malt complex of a liquid yeast but still very good stuff.

Steve


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## devo (5/6/08)

SJW said:


> Does it make much diff letting it sit for 6 weeks in the keg? I have never bothered. After primary has finished it raise the temp to 18 for 48 hours then crash chill and keg, and start drinking straight away.




Yes, I find it does.


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## Steve (5/6/08)

SJW said:


> Even fermenting at warmer temps it's still clean.



...and another mentioning its good at warm temps. What temps are you talking Steve? Ross was telling me a mate of his brews with S189 regularly (warm) with great results.
Cheers
Steve


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## SJW (5/6/08)

> and another mentioning its good at warm temps. What temps are you talking Steve? Ross was telling me a mate of his brews with S189 regularly (warm) with great results.
> Cheers
> Steve


I think it would be fine up to 20 deg C easy. If u can keep it cooler for the first couple of days and then let it go at a cooler room temp would be fine too as it ferments very fast, esspecially at warmer temps. 
I have found that the fermentation temp does not make that much diff with this yeast. I have done one at 8 deg C and another at 18 deg C with very little diff, if any.
I do want to give the 2206 another go though.


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## geoffi (5/6/08)

SJW said:


> I think it would be fine up to 20 deg C easy. If u can keep it cooler for the first couple of days and then let it go at a cooler room temp would be fine too as it ferments very fast, esspecially at warmer temps.
> I have found that the fermentation temp does not make that much diff with this yeast. I have done one at 8 deg C and another at 18 deg C with very little diff, if any.
> I do want to give the 2206 another go though.




Pretty much my experience. Remarkably clean yeast even at 20c. 

I'm planning a Schwarzbier this weekend, fermented with this yeast at current storeroom temps (~15c). About two weeks primary, then a week kegged in the fridge. I reckon that'll do it.


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## Steve (5/6/08)

Intersting guys - thanks. Im doing a double batch so I might brew one cold in the fridge and just stick the other in the laundry at room temp*. Will report back in a few weeks.
Cheers
Steve

* room temp being a non heated laundry in a house in Canberra that is very cold at the moment.


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## blackbock (6/6/08)

Zwickel said:


> there is another aspect too: the most of lager and pilsener yeast strains dont taste good, they mostly taste bitter and muddy (has nothing to do with hops bitterness)



I'm not a fan of the Trbpils either, but the best lager yeast strains are the ones which are powdery and stay in suspension longer to eat up more of the less-fermentable sugars. A strain which ferments out in three days, drops to the bottom and is apparently drinkable after a week is not an ideal lager yeast. If someone ferments a beer at 20C with such a yeast then it shouldn't really be named a lager at all.


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