# Melanoidin Malt In A Pils?



## Snow

I'm doing a Bohemian Pils on the weekend and couldn't be arsed doing a decoction mash schedule. Anyone out there have an opinion on what a useful amount of melanoidin malt in the mash would be, to approximate the effects of a decoction?

cheers - Snow


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## Fatgodzilla

Snow said:


> I'm doing a Bohemian Pils on the weekend and couldn't be arsed doing a decoction mash schedule. Anyone out there have an opinion on what a useful amount of melanoidin malt in the mash would be, to approximate the effects of a decoction?
> 
> cheers - Snow





> Melanoidin Malt is a type of malt produced by the Weyermann Malting Company. Melanoidins are desirable flavor compounds that are present in malts (especially German malts like Munich and Vienna). This specialty variety has been described as “turbo Munich”.
> 
> From what I have read, I formed this theory: Melanoidin Malt was developed to give homebrewers a way to get these big malty flavor compounds into beer without having to mash German malts. Historically to get melanoidins extracted into your wort, brewers would need to follow a decoction mash schedule…which is time consuming. I think this malt is kilned in a special way to give homebrewers the ability to get the flavors without the hassle.
> 
> Flavor: Intense malty flavor. Very aromatic.
> 
> Color: 23 - 31L Promotes a deep red color in your beer
> 
> Body: Gives beer fuller body.
> 
> Use: Any Amber Lager or Ale, Any Dark Lager (maybe a dopplebock?), Red Ales for sure, and maybe Scottish Ales



Above taken from internet for discussion point only.

Any use of melanoidin malts in a pils will depend very much what other malts you are using. Munich malt and Pils malt are high in melanoidins anyway so if using these you only want a small amount of additional melanoidin (if any)

I don't have any munich / pils malt so am using JW pale malt to make 'euro" style ales & lagers. I used 10% melanoidin to add a malty complexion. I also brewed with Wyeast Euro Ale which contributes to malt character and the last batch was very malty, very nice. I'm going to use the same amount in a lager using Wyeast Bavarian Lager (which has had a recent thread) which also apparently adds to the malty characters.

So, what malts you planning on using and what yeast you will ferment with will have the biggest influence on how much melanoidin malt if any you should add to the wort.


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## randyrob

my guess would be 1%


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## Guest Lurker

I can taste a 1% addition in a pils, so I would be down at that end of the scale rather than at the 10% end if you are looking for a dash of maltiness.


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## SJW

I am dinking a Pilsner now made with 10% Mel. and its great.

5000.00 gm Premium Pilsner (Weyermann) (2.2 EBC) Grain 90.91 % 
500.00 gm Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 9.09 % 
100.00 gm Saaz [2.50 %] (60 min) Hops 25.0 IBU 
90.00 gm Saaz [2.50 %] (25 min) Hops 15.7 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs SafLager German Lager (DCL Yeast #S-189) Yeast-Lager 



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG 
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG 
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.98 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 % 
Bitterness: 40.7 IBU Calories: 487 cal/l 
Est Color: 11.0 EBC Color:


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## T.D.

Yep another vote for <1% (if any). Melanoidin has a surprising amount of grunt. You don't need much to get an effect. Maybe use it in place of the munich, but if you are already using munich I wouldn't bother. 5% munich is plenty to give it a bit of body.


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## randyrob

i don't know how you guys are getting away with 10%

my first experience with melanoiden malt was 95% pils 5% melanoidin and it was too much for me, tasted like a rum and raisin icecream from baskin robins.

i then brewed another beer 100% pils and blended it with the other beer first 50/50 (which would have been around 2.5% melanoidin) and it was much

more enjoyable. it's a specialty malt i would use again with a light hand, happy to be proven wrong!

Rob.


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## warrenlw63

Yah agreed. I find melanoidin's effects to be a little like black ink. A little goes a long way. I've been able to detect it at rates of 1.5% in an ordinary bitter and that was in conjunction with a fair belt of other specialty malts.

Always reminds me a little of those Malt o Milk biscuits that always seem to get shunned in the Family Assortment pack.  

Warren -


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## lagers44

I agree with the majority here , as little as possible as it will also darken the beer & most Bohemian Pils aren't that dark or overly malty either. I would try no more than 100gm in 5kg i.e 2% max unless you really love maltiness then brew to your tastes.

Lagers


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## Fatgodzilla

> i don't know how you guys are getting away with 10% ...my first experience with melanoidin malt was 95% pils 5% melanoidin






> I don't have any munich / pils malt so am using JW pale malt to make 'euro" style ales & lagers. I used 10% melanoidin to add a malty complexion.




Its the base malt that makes the big difference between nil % - 10% and what the yeast is. 

No idea on Saflagers S-189 whether its neutral to taste, but SJW's 1 : 10 ratio would make a great malty beer !

With Pils / Vienna / Munich malt I probably wouldn't use melanoidin malt but look at some light crystal for a bit more colour / body.


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## Snow

Thanks for all the feedback, guys. I am planning on using Just Wyermann Pils malt and some melanoidin. Based on comments here, I'll probably go for 2%, as I love malt flavour, and the beer will be highly hopped with saaz plugs. The yeast will be Craftbrewer Swiss Lager, which I believe is a pretty clean lager flavour (as compared with Czech Budejovice).

Cheers - Snow


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## brendanos

Melanoidin is my favourite eating malt. You know, for between meals.


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## Darren

SJW said:


> I am dinking a Pilsner now made with 10% Mel. and its great.
> 
> Beer Profile
> 
> Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
> Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
> Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
> Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.98 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 %
> Bitterness: 40.7 IBU Calories: 487 cal/l
> Est Color: 11.0 EBC Color:



Hey SJW,

11 EBC is almost dark ale type colour. hardly a pilsener.

1% maximum melanoidin in a pils for me thanks

cheers

Darren


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## dr K

Weyermann Melanoidin is a fantastic adjunct grian, and an excellent addition to somethin like aDunkle to add an extra layer of malt complexity, but it certainly adds a very red hue, and at 10% this would be more than just "noticeable" in a beer that (Bohemian Plsner) one would expect to be rather straw hued.
i would suggest that an addition of Munich 1 would be preferable.

K


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## SJW

> Hey SJW,
> 
> 11 EBC is almost dark ale type colour. hardly a pilsener.
> 
> 1% maximum melanoidin in a pils for me thanks
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



I did not say it was not dark, I did say it was great!
It started off a traditional Pils with 1% Mel but I had 500g so I chucked it all in. Who gives a shit what its called. I maintain that good beer should be drunk in a dark smoke filled bar! Think about it <_< 

Steve


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## BeerSwiller

I wonder how 1% would go in a CPA clone, or maybe the Red Dog Pale Ale?


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## MHB

Melanodin is an interesting and useful malt, Weyermann recommend it in amounts up to 20% and use it in a bunch of recipes.
Im working my way through the new The ULTIMATE ALMANAC of WORLD BEER RECIPES and it turns up regularly in a very diverse range of beer styles, its used to add body and aroma and does so very well.
Some of the notions that are expressed above dont make much sense far from it being developed for homebrewers its a modern name for Brumalt, which is more like a darker Munich both of which have been produced for centuries. It definitely wasnt made to Fake the effects of decoction brewing, thats just something dreamt up.
Kunze suggests it can be used at rates of up to 50% but 5-25% being more common.
MHB


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## Bribie G

What's the relationship between Melanoidin and Caraaroma? I use heaps of Caraaroma in red ales etc and get that great raisin flavour as well.


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## MHB

Yes indeed it is Melanoidin Malt, just getting my first coffee into me sry, and not much relation to CaraAroma really, Munich Vienna and Melanoidin (probably Biscuit, Imperial and Amber (maybe)) are more of a family. They arent in the Crystal/Cara family not having been mashed rather they are allowed to heat up towards the end of germination and have O2 excluded, this causes the development of Melanodins and other flavour/aroma compounds.
MHB


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## Bribie G

haha, no MHB you got the spelling right first time, I was just pointing out that Melanoidin den and dan seems to be a spelling challenge similar to the ubiquitous "Larger". Considering that this is a tech forum you'd be flamed out of existence on other forums (fora?) if you posted about Holden Toronas or Jack Rissole Terriers.  

Interesting about the Vienna - I'm doing a V Lager tomorrow and have 5k, looking forward to milling it :icon_drool2:


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## Fourstar

Hi MHB,

For clarification, my understanding was that malts such as Biscuit, Melanoiden, Vienna and munich were "wet" kilned (still with a high content of moisture post germination) and then fired at slightly higher temperatures than Pilsner/Ale malts. This causes the malt to partially sacchrify in the kernel, toasting the malt and also reducing the diastatic power due to the higher temperatures?

Cheers.


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## MHB

Sort of, the original way to make them was to pile the green malt into mounds on the malting floor and cover it with tarpaulins, heat would build up inside the mound to 40-50oC and there was little or no oxygen available for respiration. Im sure modern malt houses arent doing this but are modelling the process in some way.
There is some saccrification, but nothing like what happens during the production of cara/crystal, the active enzymes in the corn make a lot of low molecular weight protein available, so when the malt is kilned there are both sugars and proteins available to form Melanins via milliard reactions.
MHB


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## mje1980

BribieG said:


> haha, no MHB you got the spelling right first time, I was just pointing out that Melanoidin den and dan seems to be a spelling challenge similar to the ubiquitous "Larger". Considering that this is a tech forum you'd be flamed out of existence on other forums (fora?) if you posted about Holden Toronas or Jack Rissole Terriers.
> 
> Interesting about the Vienna - I'm doing a V Lager tomorrow and have 5k, looking forward to milling it :icon_drool2:



O/T bribie, i made a dark ale with wey vienna as the base malt. :icon_drool2: Gorgeously malty.


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## Fourstar

MHB said:


> Sort of, the original way to make them was to pile the green malt into mounds on the malting floor and cover it with tarpaulins, heat would build up inside the mound to 40-50oC and there was little or no oxygen available for respiration. Im sure modern malt houses arent doing this but are modelling the process in some way.
> There is some saccrification, but nothing like what happens during the production of cara/crystal, the active enzymes in the corn make a lot of low molecular weight protein available, so when the malt is kilned there are both sugars and proteins available to form Melanins via milliard reactions.
> MHB




Cheers,

Thanks for the historical malting technique insights. I love reading all of the old brewing texts on the american library archive although the descriptions can be somewhat hard to interperet at times.


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