# Buyer Beware



## porky (17/2/09)

Buyers Beware.

I ordered two kilos of hops from ESB brew supplies on the 6th of February. 
A kilo of Pride of Ringwood and a kilo of Cascade, both pellets.

On the 7th I received an email confirming the order including an order number. 
On their website is says allow 3 days to process the order. Shipping should take a day or two at the most, so I was watching the mailbox by Friday expecting that surely they would be here by now. 
Nothing, so we checked the bank to see if our credit card had been charged. 
It wasnt.
Yesterday I sent a return email with the order confirmation and asked where is the order? Again, nothing.
So, this morning we called the phone number on their website, a toll call for us, and were told to call this other number in Sydney..another toll call. 
This guy said that he didnt read the email yet today (it was sent yesterday morning) and he is out of stock on the POR anyway.

So, if you folks at ESB read this.
First you should have contacted us to let us know what was going on.
Second when we called you, the proper thing to do would for you to have said, I call you right back and made the call to the other place yourself. 
Then called us back. It cost me two calls, waiting over 10 days, and the attitude of the guy in Sydney was like he couldnt care less. 

I am used to dealing with Ross at CB. He processes orders in more like three hours, not three days. Most times the parcel is here the next day. If there is a problem he calls me. I dont have to call him. If something is out of stock I know this by his website. There is no guessing. 
First class way to run a businessothers should take a lesson.

And, if there is a word of a lie in any of this, sue me.

Cheers,
budwiser


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## lagers44 (17/2/09)

Welcome to the perils of e-shopping, I know from experience that ESB don't update their website and the new owners haven't gotten their act together yet. They own 2 shops and are gearing the original ESB for wholesale only, retail will be at the 2nd shop down the road BUT they haven't got much stock at the new shop. I've been caught a few times where they haven't got this or that "it's at the other shop " but the other shop is closed or not open for retail. WTF??

ESB need to lift their game, it used to be a great venue.


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## Jase71 (17/2/09)

I think a retailer needs to understand that their competotors will get the business if they don't get the act together. Sure, things happen sometimes, but ongoing communication is the key. Part of the reason I choose the two HBS I use for my stuff _(Pat @ Absolute Home brew and Dave @ Dave's Home Brew)_ is that they are super-fast, and they are very friendly, and their prices are generally no worse or better than anywhere else, but even if it was a few bucks more over a hundred dollar order, I would pay the extra for the comfort that their service is great.

Bud, you're probably going to get your goods, it will just take a bit longer than anticipated - or you'll get a refund if stuff is out of stock. I guess for now patience needs to be your friend.


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## Screwtop (17/2/09)

lagers44 said:


> BUT they haven't got much stock at the new shop. I've been caught a few times where they haven't got this or that "it's at the other shop " but the other shop is closed or not open for retail. WTF??
> 
> ESB need to lift their game, it used to be a great venue.




Pretty much similar to my last (yes last) experience using ESB. Vials of yeast not sent after a week, phone call - didn't have one of the strains I'd ordered, hadn't advised me - said I would take a strain they did have, still a problem - couldn't get to the Post Office to send the order due to staff being off. Turned up a week later :angry: 

Screwy


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## mattcarty (17/2/09)

Jase71 said:


> I think a retailer needs to understand that their competotors will get the business if they don't get the act together.



havent used ESB so really have nothing to say in relation to the original comments of the thread

BUT 

i have boycotted Brewcraft, both times ive been to one of these stores i have been served by people who seem to not want to be there. at least pretend like you care if the customer is getting the service they require, if you dont understand that customer service is important to your business maybe you are in the wrong profession, im not a people person, which is why i have never worked in retail. 

The boys at Holden Hill under the pool hall are my LHBS and they actually take time to talk to you about your purchase if ya have a question they answer it in good detail and dont talk down to you like you are an idiot just for being a newbie and needing clarification on what you are about to brew.

Just offering a product or service isnt enough if you have dozens of other places around you that can equal or better the quality of your work. 

rant over....for now

Cheers
Carty


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## muckey (17/2/09)

cant beat a good LHBS.
unfortunately a lot of store operators seem more interested in making money than making beer.

Problem with my LHBS is that he's interested in making money, interested in making beer and interested in talking to his customers about making beer and I cant get out of the shop unless Amanda cracks the whip on him :lol: .


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## bear09 (17/2/09)

My two bobs worth...

Ross and Craft Brewer provides service that is utterly superior to anything I have ever experienced. I have placed an order and called for advice only to wish I almost hadnt because he told me so much stuff I could not absorb it all. Just wonderful. the site is A1. Looks great and is very accurate. this is how you run a business properly. It makes you want to go back.

Grain and Grape are also really great when you go there in person. Their site leaves a little to be desired when compared to Craft brewer but their in person service si great and so is their range of gear.

These are the two places I deal with. Id recommend you do the same.

Cheers.


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## bear09 (17/2/09)

Um yeah...

Also - beerbelly - wonderful service there too. I got my pots from Luke and was happy to find bonuses in every one.

the little things go a long way in regards to exceeding ones expectations...


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## Jakechan (17/2/09)

Cant comment on ESB myself (apart from their shocking website), but Ross at Craftbrewer continues to offer such excellent service and advice I have no need for elsewhere, and wouldn't bother looking.

I'm sure your stuff will turn up Bud, but it sure can be a pain.

Cheers,
Jake


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## Pollux (17/2/09)

Jase71 said:


> I think a retailer needs to understand that their competotors will get the business if they don't get the act together. Sure, things happen sometimes, but ongoing communication is the key. Part of the reason I choose the two HBS I use for my stuff _(Pat @ Absolute Home brew and Dave @ Dave's Home Brew)_ is that they are super-fast, and they are very friendly, and their prices are generally no worse or better than anywhere else, but even if it was a few bucks more over a hundred dollar order, I would pay the extra for the comfort that their service is great.
> 
> Bud, you're probably going to get your goods, it will just take a bit longer than anticipated - or you'll get a refund if stuff is out of stock. I guess for now patience needs to be your friend.




I can also vouch for Absolute, I remember when I made my first move from kits to extract and ordered some spec grains Pat called me and informed me he was out of one of the grains I ordered but offered a substitute at no cost....


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## chappo1970 (17/2/09)

Jakechan said:


> Cant comment on ESB myself (apart from their shocking website), but Ross at Craftbrewer continues to offer such excellent service and advice I have no need for elsewhere, and wouldn't bother looking.




Agree with Jake here CB they really spend the time with the customer, not only to be nice, but to understand what your trying to achieve. I am lucky they are my LHBS  . I did go to a HBS a little closer but he wasn't that interested in helping me develop along. However I found the complete opposite with CB's crew, they will bend over backwards if they have to. Been in there on a saturday morning asking questions, busy as people everywhere, and they have never once pushed me out of the way to serve another customer. You do need some patience the wait can be long sometimes but once served all is forgotten. A+++


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## muckey (17/2/09)

Ross and Mothballs are a good crew. Planning on dropping in to see them when I'm up that way easter time


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## fraser_john (17/2/09)

+1 for Craftbrewer

Ross and crew go above and beyond.

Makes me feel "kinda" sorry for the other small HBS around the country, without lifting their game, they have no chance at survival, e-shopping is here to stay, get with it and get with it properly, or get out.


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## schooey (17/2/09)

Why would I go e-shopping when I can go for a 10 minute drive here in Newcastle and get everything the same, cheaper at MHB, 6 days a week? Sometimes you dudes get a little blindsided....


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## fraser_john (17/2/09)

I'd hazard a guess most of us don't live within 10 minutes, or even 30 minutes of a decent HBS! If I was to drive to a decent HBS I'd be spending an hour fifteen minutes. And at 10 litres per hundred, thats about $15 in diesel just to go one way! Bring on the e-shops.


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## vicelore (17/2/09)

Arhhh not having to drive a hour to a LHBS would be nice.. but my LHBS is Brew And grow... you have to push through the bongs to get to the brewing gear.. lol

Cheers Vice


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## Bribie G (17/2/09)

CraftBrewer offer excellent service via the Internet but I would not recommend actually visiting their shop.


Last time I went in there to pick up an order which included 30kg of Maris Otter, as I was making a rare trip to the southside, and also for an airstone & pump, some hops and a kilo of Crystal Malt that I had forgotten to order.

I came out with all the above, plus two smack packs of WYeast, a set of Boddingtons pint glasses, four shrinks of hops .....  

I was on the point of strapping SWMBO to the roofrack but everything fitted in the car eventually B) 

I'm sure the other sponsors offer great service and product as well, I shop at CraftBrewer as I like to keep the money north of the Tweed (insert icon of someone playing a banjo)


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## Pollux (17/2/09)

Well, I don't own a car, we have no real need for one given where we live and work....

Which means I'd be up for a train trip, returning with a heavy box..

Or I just make up a large order from the same HBS, pay with my credit card and even with my crappy local parcel delivery guy I normally have my order within 2-3 days...


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## muckey (17/2/09)

I shop at beerbelly because of the quality and service but also because I drive past to go to work. I have purchased from craftbrewer also. Unfortunately I'm not close enough to MHB to experience all the good things I've heard.


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## chappo1970 (17/2/09)

BribieG said:


> ...but I would not recommend actually visiting their shop.


 :lol: 

Yep agree with you Bribie. It's a dangerious, dangerious place... One minute your wallets full next the moths are moving in. This has to be the one draw back of having CB's as your LHBS <_< . 

Beer bling and beer porn as far as the eye can see (I'm band from upstairs by SWMBO). Can tell you how many times now I have gone in there telling myself "Just grab the hops and grains and leave! Don't make eye contact, don't talk beer, just get out of there" Next thing you know Mothballs has you trying 4 different types of hops and three different yeasts? :huh:


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## SJW (17/2/09)

> I'd hazard a guess most of us don't live within 10 minutes, or even 30 minutes of a decent HBS! If I was to drive to a decent HBS I'd be spending an hour fifteen minutes. And at 10 litres per hundred, thats about $15 in diesel just to go one way! Bring on the e-shops.



E-shops dont encorage new brewers IMO
You dont need to be 10mins away from Marks as he will post anywhere in the country and is cheaper than any on-line store I have seen. Eg spec. grain $4 per kg, cheaper in bulk, down to $2 per Kg for B&B Ale Malt, and 100g of 08 NB hops $8.

Steve


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## drsmurto (17/2/09)

matt carty said:


> The boys at Holden Hill under the pool hall are my LHBS and they actually take time to talk to you about your purchase if ya have a question they answer it in good detail and dont talk down to you like you are an idiot just for being a newbie and needing clarification on what you are about to brew.
> 
> Cheers
> Carty



Carty - Bill at Brewmaker is a great bloke. Havent dropped in there for some time now but he was my only source of brewing help back in the uni brewing days (mid to late 90s). I first started adding hops and grain to my recipes after chats with him about what beer i liked. Probably owe him a few beers.

Brewcraft is to homebrewing as McDonalds is to restaurants..... :angry:


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## porky (17/2/09)

SJW said:


> E-shops dont encorage new brewers IMO
> Steve



Neither does my LHBS. 

Where is Mark? What is his website?

Cheers,
Bud


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## mattcarty (17/2/09)

fraser_john said:


> I'd hazard a guess most of us don't live within 10 minutes, or even 30 minutes of a decent HBS! If I was to drive to a decent HBS I'd be spending an hour fifteen minutes. And at 10 litres per hundred, thats about $15 in diesel just to go one way! Bring on the e-shops.




im a lucky one my LHBS is a 10 min drive.

ahhhhh my bank balance LOVES IT! :unsure:


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## SJW (17/2/09)

> Neither does my LHBS.
> 
> Where is Mark? What is his website?
> 
> ...



http://www.ubrew.com.au/beering.htm

Give him a call and get on his mailing list for some great specials before they go out to the general public.

Steve


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## Mantis (17/2/09)

Good HBS at Ballarat although he doesnt do grain stuff but thats two hours away. I backyard brewcrap sorry brewcraft shop has opened in Horsham. I went there a couple of months ago to get some dry wheat malt and he didnt know if he had any or not, so I had to find it. 

Craftbrewers site is fantastic and far ahead of the rest


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## mattcarty (17/2/09)

DrSmurto said:


> Carty - Bill at Brewmaker is a great bloke. Havent dropped in there for some time now but he was my only source of brewing help back in the uni brewing days (mid to late 90s). I first started adding hops and grain to my recipes after chats with him about what beer i liked. Probably owe him a few beers.
> 
> Brewcraft is to homebrewing as McDonalds is to restaurants..... :angry:




nice

funny i was going to make that exact same analogy  macca's ahhhh the foul taste of regret!


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## deadly (17/2/09)

You didnt get your products that were ordered and you didnt get charged for it,so you come on here and complain?


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## porky (17/2/09)

deadly said:


> You didnt get your products that were ordered and you didnt get charged for it,so you come on here and complain?



Yes. Only after calling them. 
Re-read my OP.
Posting here was in order I'm afraid.
Save some others from this sort of bad business.

I have purchased from most of the retailers on this site. Never had a problem. All very good to deal with.
This was just way over the top.

Cheers,
Bud


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## SJW (17/2/09)

> You didnt get your products that were ordered and you didnt get charged for it,so you come on here and complain?



Why not? Its a public forum.


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## haysie (17/2/09)

SJW said:


> Why not? Its a public forum.



I read Deadly`s post as "jest" :blink:


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## gibbocore (17/2/09)

ahhh, thats a shame, i've had stacks of great dealings with, Mel, always call up and order my grain bill and he always has it cracked and bagged by the time i get there. Shame they're not keeping up to date with the new age though.


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## unterberg (17/2/09)

SJW said:


> E-shops dont encorage new brewers IMO
> You dont need to be 10mins away from Marks as he will post anywhere in the country and is cheaper than any on-line store I have seen. Eg spec. grain $4 per kg, cheaper in bulk, down to $2 per Kg for B&B Ale Malt, and 100g of 08 NB hops $8.
> 
> Steve



Indeed!

No better shop around than Marks Homebrew. Great aussie-style service including the bite of hops/grains to get a feeling for them, helpful and very knowledgable service and the price is awesome as well.


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## leeboy (17/2/09)

I agree with SJW, LHBS's are great for building better brewers. To have that face to face for advice, critique and even learning is priceless. And if you can get that and gear for such a great price as my LHBS does then even better. I reckon there is definately a market for e-shopping but it isn't ever going to totally replace the good old fasion LHBS. Sure there are some out there that are struggling but also some that are thriving.
From a satisfied LHBS (MHB) shopper


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## razE (17/2/09)

I cant fault craftbrewer, great service and great products. Pleasure to deal with.


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## Fatgodzilla (17/2/09)

gibbocore said:


> ahhh, thats a shame, i've had stacks of great dealings with, Mel, always call up and order my grain bill and he always has it cracked and bagged by the time i get there. Shame they're not keeping up to date with the new age though.




The true message here is that if anyone know the blokes at ESB, can they be made aware of these complaints. As a sponsor of this site, these guys are after our custom. I won't allow people, particularly those who have never dealt with ESB, to denigrate them without cause. Budwiser's complaint is a genuine one that does not look good and he has every right to feel pissed off. I believe ESB can and should do better if they wish to attract customers. The main thing is for them to be made aware. They are in an important strategic position in Sydney (ie south eastern area) which isn't well served with HBS. Personally I'd prefer them to be a strong player in the market cos they offer a great range of products (on paper).

So, who tells them ?


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## Uncle Fester (17/2/09)

bear09 said:


> My two bobs worth...
> 
> Ross and Craft Brewer provides service that is utterly superior to anything I have ever experienced.



+1 (well, if you count ALL of the times I have used CB, then +10


My LHBS (BYOAH) is also great. I only go to the web when I need something Col doesn't have, like Amarillo at the moment. Otherwise I shop local and try to keep my LHBS in business. I would be screwed without him.


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## peas_and_corn (17/2/09)

Fatgodzilla said:


> The true message here is that if anyone know the blokes at ESB, can they be made aware of these complaints. As a sponsor of this site, these guys are after our custom. I won't allow people, particularly those who have never dealt with ESB, to denigrate them without cause. Budwiser's complaint is a genuine one that does not look good and he has every right to feel pissed off. I believe ESB can and should do better if they wish to attract customers. The main thing is for them to be made aware. They are in an important strategic position in Sydney (ie south eastern area) which isn't well served with HBS. Personally I'd prefer them to be a strong player in the market cos they offer a great range of products (on paper).
> 
> So, who tells them ?



Do the owners of ESB have an AHB account? Presumably they would at least keep an eye on the forum- I'm not saying "they should have seen this thread by now", but wondering to what extent they monitor what's going on here.


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## Uncle Fester (17/2/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> Do the owners of ESB have an AHB account? Presumably they would at least keep an eye on the forum- I'm not saying "they should have seen this thread by now", but wondering to what extent they monitor what's going on here.



If Matt the yank keg guy cruises this forum, I'd be surprised if the new owners of ESB didnt.


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## Pollux (17/2/09)

SJW said:


> E-shops dont encorage new brewers IMO
> You dont need to be 10mins away from Marks as he will post anywhere in the country and is cheaper than any on-line store I have seen. Eg spec. grain $4 per kg, cheaper in bulk, down to $2 per Kg for B&B Ale Malt, and 100g of 08 NB hops $8.
> 
> Steve



mmm, at those prices I may nearly have a new supplier....

I will wait until his website is fully functional and have a closer look then.


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## brenjak (17/2/09)

Jase71 said:


> I think a retailer needs to understand that their competotors will get the business if they don't get the act together. Sure, things happen sometimes, but ongoing communication is the key. Part of the reason I choose the two HBS I use for my stuff _(Pat @ Absolute Home brew and Dave @ Dave's Home Brew)_ is that they are super-fast, and they are very friendly, and their prices are generally no worse or better than anywhere else, but even if it was a few bucks more over a hundred dollar order, I would pay the extra for the comfort that their service is great.
> 
> Bud, you're probably going to get your goods, it will just take a bit longer than anticipated - or you'll get a refund if stuff is out of stock. I guess for now patience needs to be your friend.



Just a quick one on Absolute Homebrew
I ordered some odds and ends (E-shop) and it was later than expected. Sent an e-mail and got an apology and an expected delivery date. When it did arrive there was an extra grain enhancer pack and an apology note for the slight delay. 

Thumbs up to them for service and friendliness.

BGL


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## raven19 (17/2/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> Do the owners of ESB have an AHB account? Presumably they would at least keep an eye on the forum- I'm not saying "they should have seen this thread by now", but wondering to what extent they monitor what's going on here.



They are probably not addicted to sitting on this site during work hours like therest of us!  :lol: 

+1 for Ross @ Craftbrewer.

Yet to use any of the other sponsors as yet.


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## deadly (17/2/09)

Did you tell them you followed a link from this site?
Did you ask how often their site is updated or suggest it be done more often if they are going to sponser AHB as it is fairly high traffic.
Did you speak to an owner/manager about it before you posted here?
Buyer Beware is a bit dramatic for a thread title when all it cost you was time.


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## matti (17/2/09)

I can not tell if their online business is any good as I have never had to use it.
By the sound of things, it is not their Forte.

I have dealt with the guys at both shops of the ESB business and found no problem and been able to get the information of what's available straight away and been able to order in equipment and ingredient on that are listed on their site.
The time frame is usually a week or so if it is not available in the shop.

Occasionally these guys have had trouble with supplier or manufactures which have delayed thing. 

Best advice to any one dealing with a online shop is to shoot them an e-mail or ring them up prior to get yourself a contact name before you buy.
This way you get an idea of what and whom you are dealing with.

It be great if every one is as courteous and efficient as the people at CraftBrewers.

Maybe a good goal post for ESB  

(But it was annoying getting PMs in the beginning of all the hops and stuff)
cheers Ross for leaving me alone :lol:


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## tazman1967 (17/2/09)

Ross n crew are the mark where other retailers should be aiming for...5 star goods and service. even for me down here in Tassie. I also deal with GnG and Wayne...Both are great as well. Had a few transactions with ESB, there ok by me...but not in the same ballpark as the others.
O/T
I am visiting Brisbane next week...for two weeks. My Other Half lives in Brisbane. I will be taking a "tour" of Ross's shop..have the wallet and credit card handy...just in case...have been forwarned by the above...
Cheers


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## samhighley (17/2/09)

bear09 said:


> Grain and Grape are also really great when you go there in person. Their site leaves a little to be desired when compared to Craft brewer but their in person service si great and so is their range of gear.



Be careful criticising the G&G website around these parts. Them's are fighting words.


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## schooey (17/2/09)

deadly said:


> Buyer Beware is a bit dramatic for a thread title when all it cost you was time.



Don't forget the two phone calls...


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## rwmingis (17/2/09)

Fatgodzilla said:


> The true message here is that if anyone know the blokes at ESB, can they be made aware of these complaints. As a sponsor of this site, these guys are after our custom. I won't allow people, particularly those who have never dealt with ESB, to denigrate them without cause. Budwiser's complaint is a genuine one that does not look good and he has every right to feel pissed off. I believe ESB can and should do better if they wish to attract customers. The main thing is for them to be made aware. They are in an important strategic position in Sydney (ie south eastern area) which isn't well served with HBS. Personally I'd prefer them to be a strong player in the market cos they offer a great range of products (on paper).
> 
> So, who tells them ?



I'm with ya, these guys are supplying a fairly hard to find product in general, so good on 'em for being there. And they have a nice range of hops and malts. 

I had the delayed shipment once with them, with no communications, but rang them up, they apoligised, and send it right a way. Turns out, something was different in the order than was expecting, and were waiting to contact me before sending.

I've only had one real problem with them and that was those bloody vacuum sealed yellow hop packets that they package the 100g hops in. On two separate occasions, I had 2 hop bags burst their bottoms out, spilling all my hops over the filthy kitchen floor, wasn't a happy camper. I wasn't doing anything extreme to them, they were just dodgy bags, so I sent them an email as an FYI and never heard back....

Haven't been back since though, however, would do if they had something I couldn't find closer to home.

my 2cts

Rob


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## Online Brewing Supplies (17/2/09)

deadly said:


> Did you tell them you followed a link from this site?
> Did you ask how often their site is updated or suggest it be done more often if they are going to sponser AHB as it is fairly high traffic.
> Did you speak to an owner/manager about it before you posted here?
> Buyer Beware is a bit dramatic for a thread title when all it cost you was time.


Got to agree "Buyer Beware " is way to strong, nothing was lost , I could understand if they had ripped you off.Some times I wonder what agenda's people have when the start these type of threads. <_< 
GB


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## wambesi (17/2/09)

I have dealt with ESB on a few occasions and have been very happy every time.

Only once by the web site and postage which turned out fine, and more so using the web site then calling and placing the order over the phone and picking up.
Even if not picking up I would always call first to make sure stock is in hand, only exception to this is with Ross as his site states availabilies - apologies if others do, I just havn't gotton around to ordering from you yet!

I agree with Gryphon that the subject line is a bit to strong, but I also agree that these issues can and should be raised as this is a public forum.
End of the day I will continue to shop with ESB and all the others.


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## brenjak (17/2/09)

G&G are great. Great range and friendly staff. I remember Chris from when i was a little fella and he lived in Seymour. I sent them an e-mail once and he remembered my family name. Ross at Craftbrewer is great and Grypon Brewing were also quick to respond and deliver when i used them once.


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## porky (17/2/09)

peas_and_corn said:


> Do the owners of ESB have an AHB account? Presumably they would at least keep an eye on the forum- I'm not saying "they should have seen this thread by now", but wondering to what extent they monitor what's going on here.



By my conversation with them I would have to say they don't monitor it at all.
After 11 days they didn't even know they had an order. The conformation email was produced automatically they said.
When asked why they didn't tell us there was no POR in stock, he said rather sheepishly...."we do the best we can".....
Didn't tell us it was out of stock, and didn't bother to reply at all....even with another kilo of hops on the order. 
Why???? because they don't read their own emails to the order department (who ever that might be)
some plastics company by the email addy. 
So, if anyone knows them personally, tell them. I would have thought they might have got some message from me this morning....but I doubt it.
It was a guy in a brew shop we had to call the second time......does anyone think he will tell his boss that he hasn't read his emails for 11 days????? I sure don't.  

Cheers,
Bud


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## porky (17/2/09)

deadly said:


> Did you tell them you followed a link from this site?
> Did you ask how often their site is updated or suggest it be done more often if they are going to sponser AHB as it is fairly high traffic.
> Did you speak to an owner/manager about it before you posted here?
> Buyer Beware is a bit dramatic for a thread title when all it cost you was time.




No to all of the above, and I didn't kiss their arse either.

Cheers,
Bud


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## /// (17/2/09)

Perhaps the appropriate words are 'some create the expectations that all must either follow, or be pillocked on AHB by!'

Very different businesses, but what was the outcome of the beer?

Scotty


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## InCider (17/2/09)

As buyers anywhere, we have a level of expectation - McDonalds, Woolies, the local chippy, CB, Caloundra Homebrew, Shell... whatever. They all have their stories, of differing levels of service, but they do adhere to miniumum service levels,and, as attested here tonite CB, MHB and G&G more often than not exceed the expectations of their customers - that's *great* service! Good on you all.

But when you don't even get the minimum expected level of service - that a _reasonable_ consumer can expect, let them know. Eshew diplomacy! They need the honest feedback so they can amend their process if they choose to.

Good on Budwiser to raising it -there is a greater chance ESB will hear about it somehow and do something about it.

InCider.


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## wakkatoo (17/2/09)

Don't you just hate it when you send an email in good faith and for some reason it doesn't get thru / gets lost / isn't read  

Not good on the phone response tho.


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## Bribie G (17/2/09)

tazman1967 said:


> ..........
> O/T
> I am visiting Brisbane next week...for two weeks. My Other Half lives in Brisbane. I will be taking a "tour" of Ross's shop..have the wallet and credit card handy...just in case...have been forwarned by the above...
> Cheers



As well as wallet and credit card, go to Bunnings first and obtain a hand trolley


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## clean brewer (17/2/09)

I understand fully where Budwiser is coming from, in our Restaurant, we have lost multiple thousand $$ functions due to not responding to peoples requests for Information or whatever they need A.S.A.P.. Yes, we all have lives, but Business is Business, and your Business depends on Customers to survive, and if we dont service them(within reason in our game), they will just go somewhere else.. Plenty of other places willing to take your money, especially here, some of the better suppliers..

Fact is, surely they know about this forum/community and if they have done their research, they would know that they could get a bad rap on here for poor service, does anyone know a bigger homebrew forum here in Australia??

My other thought is, especially with Suppliers I use that give me shit service(I go elsewhere), is that "THEY MAKE TOO MUCH MONEY AND DONT NEED US SMALL PEOPLE"

Cheers
CB
:beer:


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## deadly (17/2/09)

> No to all of the above, and I didn't kiss their arse either.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bud



So you waited for stuff you didnt get charged for,then came on here and complained about it without raising the issue with the business involved.
What is that going to achieve?
If they dont know they cant fix it.


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## unterberg (17/2/09)

deadly said:


> So you waited for stuff you didnt get charged for,then came on here and complained about it without raising the issue with the business involved.
> What is that going to achieve?
> If they dont know they cant fix it.



Have you actually read the first post???


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## porky (17/2/09)

deadly said:


> So you waited for stuff you didnt get charged for,then came on here and complained about it without raising the issue with the business involved.
> What is that going to achieve?
> If they dont know they cant fix it.



Again, read the OP once more, you don't seem to understand it.
They do know about it, the jury is still out as to weather they fix it or not.
I still have something on order with them, or so I think. <_< 
Time will tell. Maybe a few more weeks will work.

Bud


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## Bribie G (17/2/09)

I work in an inbound call centre for a company, and our mantra is P.A.C.E which is an acronym for "passionate about customer experience" because we fully realise that if the customer doesn't get a good experience they are going to go elsewhere.

An excellent example is today, when I rang Ticketek to order a couple of tickets to attend my buddie's PhD ceremony in March. I had a smooth and faultless experience as they extracted my eighteen dollars per ticket out of me (big pissup and feed afterwards that should compenate  )

The point I am making is that we are talking phone and internet transactions, as opposed to lobbing into a shop in person. There is an expectation that when we go online or on the phone we can be totally confident of a good and secure experience. Examples are Wotif, the hotel motel mob that I use when travelling on holiday. They are faultless and totally dependable. Another example is Quikflix that I use for my DVD hire. The best example I can think of is CraftBrewer. 

If you are in this game then s**t or get off the pot because in 2009 amateur hour is long long gone.


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## porky (17/2/09)

wakkatoo said:


> Don't you just hate it when you send an email in good faith and for some reason it doesn't get thru / gets lost / isn't read



Yes, and that does happen, :huh: but when one receives a copy of the order with an order number on it within 24 hours one thinks things are on the way.


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## clean brewer (17/2/09)

I had the same thing with a Meat Company I had used for years..


Placed an Order for Meat for 2 Weddings, $1400 worth.
The Meat was taken to Courier Company so they could deliver to me.
Courier Company now only delivered 1 day a week, so meat Company took meat back to Depot.
I rung Meat company and asked when the meat was coming.
Was then told the courier company only delivered on a certain day and it could not get to me in time.
I then told them, I would call them if I could make alternate arrangements. Which I couldnt.
Rung Meat company the next week to organise re-delivery/pick-up..
Was told that the order has been cancelled and what I ordered was no longer in stock.
I said that I still had a $1400 Invoice in my hand, was told that the invoice has been cancelled.
Very f--ked off at this point, telephone girl had made this decision to cancel order.
Rung guy in charge Fuming, he gave massive apologies, I didnt order again from them for 6 months, they probably missed out on $10 000 worth of Business.
I dont think in this day, it is economically viable to give this kind of service, unless, THEY MAKE TO MUCH MONEY..

I know its not related to beer, but the same principle applies..


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## SJW (17/2/09)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry416993

This is what we like to see more of


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## Tony (17/2/09)

Placed 2 small orders on line within 5 minuites of each other last week.

Craftbrewer order.......... on doorstep with in 24 hrs.......... from QLD.

ESB order........... still not seen (2 hr drive away)

Never had a problem with them before and been buying bits and pieces from them for over 5 years but seems to have slipped latley.

Cheers

Edit: Just checked and no payment taken from them from a week ago.

Too bad if i wanted it in a hurry


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## Back Yard Brewer (17/2/09)

Tony said:


> Placed 2 small orders on line within 5 minuites of each other last week.
> 
> Craftbrewer order.......... on doorstep with in 24 hrs.......... from QLD.
> 
> ...




May be ESB have caught wind that we are in a recession and have cut back in staff?  A bit like selling hotdogs?

A humble hot dog man had a successful business selling quality hot dogs. Every customer was served with a smile. One day the man’s son came home from college and told his father a recession was coming so he better cut costs. The hot dog man stopped advertising and garaged some of his hot dog carts. Sales fell. He retrenched staff and used cheap sausages and sales fell further. Eventually he decided he would go back to doing what he was doing, that is selling good quality hot dogs with a smile … and sure enough… sales went up.

You might be asking yourself what’s the point of the story? The motto of the story isn’t whether or not Australia is heading for recession - this depends on whose point of view you wish to take and which newspaper you read after October’s Black Friday. 

The point is, the story is about how gloom and doom can become self fulfilling and how you have the power to create or avoid your own recession. If you’ve been a sheep and docilely followed the pack by madly buying stock at the height of the stock market rise and now you’re desperately trying to recoup your losses by selling, just like the rest of the pack, then the sensationalist media predictions of loss and financial devastation are likely to come true for you. 

Sorry could not help myself.


BYB


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## bulp (18/2/09)

With me if i don't get good service once i put it down to the seller having a bad day, but if it happens twice then i will never shop with said seller again and don't really care for excuses, these days there is more than one person/business willing to take your money and if they offer better service/price why would you look anywhere else, and big ups to anyone who shares their bad service expierience much appreciated , . I've found the CB lads to have unbeatable service/price and attitudes and have dealt with other site sponsors and to be honest Craftbrewer wins hands down. 

p.s But i'm still grateful for Ahb site sponsorship  

Cheers


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## samhighley (18/2/09)

If a business promotes that they do business using modern technology, such as email and web, then they need to take it seriously. If they are not serious about it, then they should not promote these methods as viable ways of transacting business with that company.

I've lost count of the number of times that i've sent emails to businesses and never received a response. If they're not serious about interacting with customers in this way, then they should remove all mention of email from their advertisements.


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## mikem108 (18/2/09)

ESB has been slipping for a while ever since Mel got "sick" and the shop closed temporarily and was then bought out by the other fellas. Have had nothing but disappointing experiences there since then.


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## petesbrew (18/2/09)

Quick question, Are the kits still the same since Mel left?
I have a desire to try the smoked belgian ale again.


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## Carbonator (18/2/09)

clean brewer said:


> I dont think in this day, it is economically viable to give this kind of service.



Very true, since the everyone else is wanting to compete with your business and take your money!

Communications and payments for sold items on eBay are almost instant now, well, can be complete within 2 or 3 minutes, so sellers should be attempting to reciprocate with mailing and or return communication of a postal delay, because the money for the purchased product is gone towards the seller's account as soon as the buyer clicks on "confirm payment"!

The bar has been lifted somewhat for internet orders of products. I personally check my email 5 to 15 times a day, and sometimes have stuff I sell on eBay, paid for with Paypal, delivered to the buyer in their hand the next or second business business day, thanks to Aus Post Express satchels.

It's a 2-way street! Believe me, there are some very slack eBay buyers out there and their "Customer Service" towards me has been very retarded, even though they have full intentions of paying for something (in the next couple of weeks).


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## PostModern (18/2/09)

Wow. This thread has grown and grown, nearly as long as the list of satisfied ESB customers.

I used to shop at ESB almost exclusively, until other options opened up online and in the Illawarra. Mel, and those close to Mel, inspired and created the craft as we know it in Sydney today. I always enjoyed popping in there for bulk ingredients once every few months and having a chat while I was there. A shame that all that history and effort can be wiped from our memories by one bad transaction.

I take it Mel is out of the business completely now? He was very old school, the interweb was an ad/brochure more than a business processing service, I think. Seems like the new owners are doing things the same way, which is a shame and counterproductive in this day and age.


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## mje1980 (18/2/09)

PostModern said:


> Wow. This thread has grown and grown, nearly as long as the list of satisfied ESB customers.
> 
> I used to shop at ESB almost exclusively, until other options opened up online and in the Illawarra. Mel, and those close to Mel, inspired and created the craft as we know it in Sydney today. I always enjoyed popping in there for bulk ingredients once every few months and having a chat while I was there. A shame that all that history and effort can be wiped from our memories by one bad transaction.
> 
> I take it Mel is out of the business completely now? He was very old school, the interweb was an ad/brochure more than a business processing service, I think. Seems like the new owners are doing things the same way, which is a shame and counterproductive in this day and age.




Same here rob, i found mel to be of great help, and would gladly answer stupid newbie questions. I used to drive up there from the gong once a month or so.


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## Peter Wadey (18/2/09)

PostModern said:


> ......
> I take it Mel is out of the business completely now? .....



If you want to talk to Mel, you will still find him at the Lorraine St shop.


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## warrenlw63 (18/2/09)

I don't agree with a lot of things you say PoMo but you're spot on the money there.  When I was HB newb 12 years ago. I did a bit of buying on the phone down here in Vic from Reagan and Mel. Both top blokes and really helpful. Mind you I only bought from them what G&G (or Southern HB) at the time could not provide. Even G&G at the time applauded the fact that if they don't have it it's perfectly alright to get it somewhere else. Such is the raport HBS proprietors "used" to have with each other.

I sometimes wonder if more harm than good is being inflicted here by bagging the LHBS on this forum? Sort of runs counter to what we stand for really.  

Give the bloke a break he may be just finding his feet.

As per a rumbling I had the other week when somebody was bagging G&G's website. Maybe just a phone call as a "concerned customer" maybe all that's required personally I think it shows better character and more balls than bearing your souls on AHB. This is liable to make or break a retailer.  

Warren -


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## peas_and_corn (18/2/09)

I bought some iodophor from them a few years back, was the only thing I've ever bought from them- no worries at all.


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## porky (18/2/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Maybe just a phone call as a "concerned customer" maybe all that's required personally I think it shows better character and more balls than bearing your souls on AHB. This is liable to make or break a retailer.
> 
> Warren -



Too bad you didn't hear the call. I can't explain the total indifference I got. 
Never would have posted this if they even tried to help and not lose me as a customer.
With the number of others that have had bad experiences it would have been nice to get a heads up and I wouldn't bothered to order from them. 

Bud


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## boingk (18/2/09)

> ...doom and gloom can be self-fulfilling.


Bing bing bing! Winner, contestant #1793! I totally agree. Excellent situational analogy, too.

As for my experience, I got a phonecall almost a week after placing (and paying for) my order. A small order, only 3kg of grains and a half-kilo of PoR. No biggie. Anyway, I was told over the phone that I would be right to have a few hundred grams of PoR, but that was it. I was free to change quantities or specify another hop, so I said yes to 200g PoR and 300g Cluster. I thought that was pretty good, and was told the order would be to me by the end of this week.

I'm not complaining, or extolling the speed of service, but am glad I was kept in the loop. Whilst its far from overnight service, I wasn't in a rush and can handle a week-and-a-bit turn around time due to still getting my AG setup together. 

Cheers - boingk


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## Pollux (18/2/09)

As others have said, if you want to advertise yourself as an on-line retailer, you should have the planning and resources to easily have sales going out within 24-48 hours.

If you suddenly discover that you are struggling to keep up, hire another staff member. 


Having spent years in various forms of customer service I have high standards of what I expect when I am a customer, and I also understand when a situation is beyond the control of the business I am dealing with, and provided they keep me in the loop then all is well....

We have a quote painted on the walls in back of house at work.

"We are not in the coffee business serving people, we are in the people business serving coffee"

Truer words never spoken.


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## PostModern (18/2/09)

Pollux said:


> "We are not in the coffee business serving people, we are in the people business serving coffee"
> 
> Truer words never spoken.



You are in the drug business serving caffeine addiction, but with a smile.


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## boingk (18/2/09)

postmodern said:


> You are in the drug business serving caffeine addiction


What? Never... [*hand jitters of its own accord towards coffee machine*]


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## Pollux (18/2/09)

PostModern said:


> You are in the drug business serving caffeine addiction, but with a smile.



I'm not sure where they pulled the quote from, we are a casino not a coffee shop..

I am in the sales industry, I sell hopes and dream at inflated prices, but with a smile


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## PeterF (18/2/09)

I was at ESB today, on my home from a business trip in Sydney to the South Coast and I picked up an order I had emailed thru last week.
Everything was ready to be picked up, paid and left, no problems.
I did notice that most of the tins of goo are no longer there but are probably at the other shop.
Arrived home checked my voice mail and there was a call from Richard from ESB - I had left my credit card at the shop.
A round trip to ESB is 5 hours on a good day.
Phoned ESB and Richard had left for the day but the guy I spoke to took my address and will put my credit card in Express post tomorrow.

Pretty happy with that service!!

I think that the ESB store will be doing only all grain stuff and the other store will be more K&K stuff.
At the moment they are still getting their act together and I hope for their sake and ours everything will work out.

Cheers Peter


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## rwmingis (18/2/09)

mikem108 said:


> ESB has been slipping for a while ever since Mel got "sick" and the shop closed temporarily and was then bought out by the other fellas. Have had nothing but disappointing experiences there since then.



+1. My LHBS apparently had problems with them after Mel left, and doesn't buy from them anymore. Mel did a good job with that place, shame he's not there anymore. I hope the ESB boy's take all this on board, they have potential to be great again, just need to pay a bit more attention to customer service. 

At least, I hope that's the moral anyway, and we're not just ranting...


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## wambesi (18/2/09)

PeterF said:


> I was at ESB today, on my home from a business trip in Sydney to the South Coast and I picked up an order I had emailed thru last week.
> Everything was ready to be picked up, paid and left, no problems.



I never knew the "previous owners" but as stated before the couple of times I have got stuff there (only in the last six months) have been good experiences.
As mentioned above phoned through and told them I'd be there at xxx day/time and the box has been waiting there ready to go.


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/2/09)

I hope this does not turn into an ESB bashing session, it would be totally unfair


Customer service IS THE MAIN THING in business...

I have bought from G&G, Grumpy's & Craftbrewer.

All of them have been great to deal with and I wont suggest one over the other.

I work in the customer "satisfaction" arena..


Sometimes you win a customer....sometimes you loose one...


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## Jase71 (18/2/09)

_lose_


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## porky (18/2/09)

Jase71 said:


> _lose_




thank you


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/2/09)

Spellink

lose

loose


luv

love


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## InCider (18/2/09)

Loos.


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## Jase71 (18/2/09)

Oh so we can just make anythin*k* up ? how about Luce ?


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## Uncle Fester (18/2/09)

BribieG said:


> As well as wallet and credit card, go to Bunnings first and obtain a hand trolley


And, from all reports, catch a cab!


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## mwd (18/2/09)

Loose as in not tight

Lose (Leews ) as in Lost Channel 7 tonight at 10:30


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## clatty (18/2/09)

Another lost customer here.

I ordered 2 vials of WLP001 and received the "thankyou for your order" email on the 25/11/08. Fair enough it "may" have had to come in from the states or elsewhere but after two emails (no response) and a phone call (we'll get that out soon). It finally arrived in just over 8 weeks. 

Being reasonably new to brewing I had actually written it off and made a mental note to self... NOOO SPANKYOU.

You live and learn...


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## porky (18/2/09)

I am glad to see this has become a spelling issue. :lol: 

It was pretty much out of date by now anyway.


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## Ducatiboy stu (18/2/09)

Spellink

lose

loose


luv

love


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## Screwtop (18/2/09)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Spellink
> 
> lose
> 
> ...




And I for one would never buy anything off Ducatiboy Stu :lol: 

Well it needed lightening up 



Screwy


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## Tony (18/2/09)

Stu...... maybe you need Windows Vista to stop all the double posts you leave all over the place 

Good to see someone else getting it over a bit of spelling. Bunch of anal so and so's!

Now back to ESB. 

As i said before.......... i have placed....... id say over 30 orders there over the years and never had a problem.

They must have read my post because my pack or WLP833 turned up express post today 

Well packed also so still up there but a bit of customer corespondence doesnt hurt.  

Cheers


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