# BIAB greatly reduced trub



## Bribie G (21/2/16)

Calling BIAB brewers


My entire AG BIAB career I've been doing the following:


Curved roasting rack on the bottom of the urn to keep the bag off the element, so heat can be applied for ramping.
 
Dough in, lag the urn and mash for 1 - 2 hours (urn remains switched off)
 
Remove lagging, turn the urn on and pump the mash up and down with paint stirrer / giant potato masher while the mash ramps up to mashout temperature.
 
Gather the top of the bag (in my case it's a big hemmed circle of voile), fit skyhook pulley and hoist away.
 
Way hay and up she rises.

Proceed to boil. Hops (flowers and pellets) are confined to a hop swimming pool using a grain bag pegged round the top of the urn.

At the end of the boil the hop bag is hoisted, containing most of the hop material. Then I let the urn rest for about 20 mins before running off into no chill cubes. 

I've always had about two or three litres of soupy grey break and crap left in the urn.
A couple of brews ago I was distracted and inadvertently hoisted the bag immediately after a one hour mash. Gave it a good squeeze as normal and proceeded to boil.

The first thing I noticed was that rather than the alarming grey foam crusty on the top prior to the boil breaking through, the foam was whiter and more healthy looking. When the boil broke through the wort was unusually clear and even had specks of break forming.

I boiled as per normal, rested and drained.
There was hardly any break or gunk in the bottom.

That was with Maris Otter. Yesterday I repeated the process with BB Pale for a lager brew and very carefully hoisted the bag a few cm at a time.
Same result as with the previous brew.
Here's what ended up in the urn. You'll note that you can see the urn bottom through the small 'clouds' of trub.





The last time I saw such as small amount of trub in an electric boiler was when I minded Dave Clark's BrauMeister at a systems war for him, and was surprised by the small amount of trub left after cubing.

I suggest that without the fierce rousing the grain actually does form a bed of sorts, which was always a supposed "downside" of straight BIAB. Even when squeezing, the wort was running through clear (being suspended on a skyhook I can use both hands to squeeze from the _top _of the "sack".

Will experiment further, but so far I see little benefit in constructing elaborate recirculating systems for BIAB unless for temperature Nazi purposes. B)
The main benefit is that I can now probably scale back my brews from 23L to 21L lengths and still get clear wort into the fermenter and still fill one keg.
Or put it another way, as far as $$$ go, every tenth brew is now free.


ed: hit gravities nicely.


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## louistoo (21/2/16)

That is interesting, far less trub and no diminished gravity you say... hmmn


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## earle (21/2/16)

So no mash out but gravity was the same?

I'd be interested to hear how the beers turn out. I think I'd read somewhere that the mash out can also assist in head formation.


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## Bribie G (21/2/16)

That's the next stage, see how they turn out. The Yorkshire Bitter is in the FV at the moment.
In the case of BIAB the theory is that the wort is more runny at mashout temperatures so better yield, but in my case I squeeze so little difference.

Another model would be to do a Hochkurz mash but without the mashout, hoist gently after the dex rest and see how it goes.


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## Barge (21/2/16)

Sounds like you could raise to mashout but not disturb the grain. Then squeeze the bag after it's been hoisted. Might get the same filtering effect and better head retention / efficiency.


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## Bribie G (21/2/16)

I think that one of the reasons for getting a lot of turbidity and crap in the boiler with BIAB is that it's always been a "hey, this is quick, simple and foolproof" and the tendency is to rush the process, yank out the bag, gung ho.

Keeping the grain mass relatively undisturbed during the mash then gently and progressively lifting seems in my case to have cut out most of the annoying trub. Obviously the stuff I was getting in the bottom of the boiler wasn't hot break, it was just debris.

Raising to mashout involves a lot of stirring and pumping up and down as it ramps up. Might try doing that, then let it rest and slowly add jug wort from the tap back into the top of the mash and see if that works.


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## Barge (21/2/16)

Why not just increase the temp without the pumping etc?


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## nosco (21/2/16)

I've been doing a few "steped" mashes lately with great results but my insulation is terrible so I lose a degree or three over 30- 45-90 steps. Great beers but lots of trub/hot break what ever you call it. Cloudy without gelatine.

Keen to see the results. I wouldn't feel confident with not stirring while raising the temp. I can raise my element screen though.


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## tavas (21/2/16)

Barge said:


> Why not just increase the temp without the pumping etc?


You get hot spots and uneven temp distribution. Worst case example you can trip the urn on over temp.


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## Hpal (22/2/16)

Keep us posted, I've always wondered about the amount of crap left by BIAB. Although I don't think it's any detriment to the beer produced.


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## Reman (22/2/16)

I always have a huge amount of trub as well which is always disappointing. Anyway to reduce it would be welcome.

So the question is, is the reduction from the slow raising or the no mash out?


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## Bribie G (22/2/16)

I don't think it affects the finished beer either but it robs volume.


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## Reman (22/2/16)

Bribie G said:


> I don't think it affects the finished beer either but it robs volume.


I find if I don't put trub into the fermenter then I'm leaving 3L behind, if I put trub into the fermenter then it has trouble clearing. Taste doesn't seem to be affected but appearance does, must admit it doesn't bother me too much but it would be nice to get more volume into the fermenter AND clearer beer with no extra effort.


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## chaositic (22/2/16)

I used to fold my bag in half and use bulldog clips to hold it in place in the FV opening when I transfered. The amount of gunk that it picked up was amazing.
For my last 5 or 6 brews however I've just dumped everything in no questions asked and I've not noticed any Ill effects whatsoever.

These are some interesting reading regarding trub. Not exactly irrefutable evidence but keeps the possibility open!

http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/
http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/22/the-impact-of-kettle-trub-part-2-exbeeriment-results/


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## Hpal (23/2/16)

Mike Hochkurz


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## chaositic (23/2/16)

Hpal said:


> Mike Hochkurz


You should probably get that checked.


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## Rocker1986 (23/2/16)

Very interesting. I must say I have been getting a fair amount of trub in the urn myself. Lately I've also been stirring the mash periodically over the 90 minutes and during ramp up to and mash out etc. My efficiency has improved since doing this, and also since moving to a coarser crush, despite the shitload of trub in the bottom of the urn (although this is allowed for in Beersmith).

Next brew day I will give this method a trial run and see how I go in regards to hitting my numbers and also with the level of trub. Will be interesting.


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## CmdrRyekr (23/2/16)

Trub doesn't matter. Get over it.


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## wereprawn (23/2/16)

I used to stir my brew once or twice during the mash and was getting so much trub the urn was cutting out. So,a while back, I decided to stop stirring to see if the grain would filter the wort. It worked very well and made zero difference to efficiency . So, yeah, I definitely think it works as a filter. Will have to try your slow lift method and see if I can reduce it even more .


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## wobbly (23/2/16)

CmdrRyekr said:


> Trub doesn't matter. Get over it.


Another urban myth without detailed scientific support to back up the statement!!!

Wobbly


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## Barge (24/2/16)

Whilst I'm not overly concerned of the impact trub makes on my beer, I would like to reduce trub to increase the amount of wort that makes it into the keg.

Leaving trub in the kettle or the fermenter is moot when the ultimate issue is that, either way, I'm brewing 3L for nothing.

I've just finished making a 1V recirculating system (like every other bastard) and I'm expecting to use less grain to fill a keg as I'm not leaving 3L behind.


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## wobbly (25/2/16)

Interestingly I tried this "slow hoisting" of the malt pipe on my 20lt Braumeister at the end of a "flooded, minimal sparge (4 lt)" yesterday and I noticed that the trub/break material left behind was reduced by about 50%.

I normally leave about 3.5 to 4lt of break material in the bottom of the BM after allowing it to settle for about 45 mins at the end of the boil and after cooling and stop the running's as soon as I start to draw any break material. I normally gently tip the BM towards the end of the running's and get about 25lt's into the fermenter from a post boil vol of 29lts 

With yesterdays brew following with a grain bill of 4.75kg of grain I was able to drain off more of the clear wort and only left behind 1.5 lt's of break material and got 28lts into the fermenter from a post boil vol of just under 30lts

I should also mention that this brew was also the first "Flooded Malt Pipe/Full Volume Mash" I have attempted with the BM so not sure what if any part that played in the amount of reduced break material.

Whilst "one swallow doesn't make a summer" I guess I saw sufficient break material reduction to try this method a few more times.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Dozer71 (27/2/16)

Just tried this method on a Schwarzbier with 5.85 kg grain bill in my Crown Urn aiming for 25L into the FV. 60 min mash at 65 which went a little bit longer (whilst lifting the bag) as wanted to check the SG before starting the boil. Hit my SGs and could tip the urn without the crap flowing in to overflow my 25L cube (which as we know does hold more than 25L). Efficiency at 73% which is consistent with my other brews.Time to adjust my losses in my spreadsheet.

Best advantage is less crap baked on the circle over the concealed element which makes easier cleaning. :icon_cheers:


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## Bribie G (27/2/16)

As they say, the proof of the pudding....

My Yorkie is due to be kegged off in about 3 days so let's see...


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## Reman (27/2/16)

So you would say it's the slow bag rise?


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## Mr B (28/2/16)

Bribie, thanks for the prompt to think about this stuff.

I usually get an absolute crapload of trub when I brew, standard BIAB. Dont think it affects the beers, and I dont worry too much about it, but its a bit annoying.

Did a brew today. Simple Pilsner/wheat grist.

Heated full vomume strike normally, mashed for 90 mins.

When heating to mashout, I usually lift the bag a little on a pulley to stop it getting burnt as I use a NASA and no false bottom etc.

I usually stir the shit out of it when its close to 78 deg, to equalize the temp. Whe I do this it will drop the overall temp by about 1.5 degrees or so.

There is usually a fair bit of visible (as it turns out) flour floating around.

Today, I stirred the grain once. Then, had the bright idea of jugging wort back through the bag.

I initially did it through the ball valve, but it was a but tedious.

I also considered that the flour would be riding the convection currents at the top of the wort, so I probably wasnt filtering it at all.

Started dipping the jug, and did this for 10 mins or so till it was at temp.

This stabilized the temp in the grain (still in the bag, and lifted about 20mm or so from the base of the pot) so I didnt get the drop and have to raise and heat again.

It also removed a large amount of the flour.

After whirlpool, I had stuff all crap left, just hops and protein.

I usually put the last bit of trub/wort etc into a 5L container, filter through voile, and dilute and use for starters. Instead of a heap of shit in this, just a little, filtered out, and much better overall retention.

So

Think I'll buy a pump. Heading towards a 3v, but really this is just a bastardization of a 1v, and it works so much better than straight BIAB.

Cheers


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## stm (3/3/16)

Mr B, sounds like a lot of stuffing around compared to Bribie's new method (ie, just pull the bag at end of mash), for the same result. Will definitely try the new Bribie method for my next batch. Looking forward to your taste test, Bribie.


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## Bribie G (3/3/16)

I kegged off #1 a couple of days ago and bottled a couple to send to someone. The beer has just about dropped in the bottles and is clear, so no starch haze by the looks of it. Samples out of primary tasted perfectly ok, the couple of pints I had anyway 

Thinking about it, that's actually a good result because I brewed the normal length that included a couple of litres of crap, so I've ended up with extra drinkable beer. I'll be reducing the length for the next brew.


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## nosco (3/3/16)

House to my self for 2 days so brewin as much as i can.
To clarify the method is, stir as normal for steps or temp adjust, raise the bag slowly, no mash out. Maybe do a basic recirc with a jug when the bag is raised?


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## Bribie G (3/3/16)

Yes, allow mash to settle to form a grain bed in the bag. Then raise very slowly. That's why a skyhook with pulley is good, you can just raise a few cm then come back a few minutes later.

Obviously you are never going to get as good a grain bed as HERMS or similar systems, but it's more than good enough IMHO after a couple of tries.

The other thing is to minimise hop matter as well. Considering that most hops used in Australia are pellets, they can create an alarming amount of shyte in the kettle, but I've found that by using a Craft Brewer grain bag as a swimming pool for the hops, pegged around the top of the kettle, the bag retains most of the hop solids that can be hoisted out, and the bittering and aroma are not affected.


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## louistoo (3/3/16)

I tried the grain bag swimming pool with all my late hops last brew and was happy to get another litre into fermenter. Working up to the no mashout/ slow hoist.

Was gonna say slow pull but thought better.. whoops haha


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## Bribie G (28/3/16)

Bump.

The "gentle lift" method has been touched on in the new BIAB in Electric Urn guide as well, so just posting latest results.

Here's the _*total trub*_ from the bottom of the urn after a 1050 AIPA brew with quite a lot of hops in the "swimming pool" last night.

This is a 2L Aldi juice bottle, I'm going to freeze the bottle and use the clear bit for starters.

Not bad considering I used to tip out around 3 litres of runny mud, most brews.


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## AJS2154 (28/3/16)

Hi Bribie, 

Well done, mate. I have really enjoyed this series of posts. Your struggle with trub sounds exactly the same as mine......I have maybe 4 litres of trub in the bottom of my keggle, and then about 1 litre wastage (give or take a little) in the plate chiller. Total loss is around 5 litres or around 17%.

I try not to get too fussy about trub getting into my FV (I cold crash before bottling), but if I can reduce it, and therfore increase brewing volumes into my FV, why not. I will try it on my next brew and report back.

Just one question about your Aldi 2 litre bottle above. Do you intend to decant the top say 80% of the liquid out of the bottle and then freeze? I wasn't quite sure exactly how you intend to achieve that bit. If you freeze it as is, the trub will be mixed in again as it thaws out.

Thanks again, cheers. Anthony


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## Bribie G (28/3/16)

I just put it in the freezer. I expect when it thaws it will re-settle and I'll pour the top layer off to use.


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## spog (29/3/16)

Bribie G said:


> I just put it in the freezer. I expect when it thaws it will re-settle and I'll pour the top layer off to use.


 as it thaws and settles it will warm to room temp ready for a starter,guess what I'm doing with the trub from now on .


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## nosco (12/4/16)

Tried the slow hoist and no mash out on my last 2 brews. I also did a bit of a vorlauf with a 2 litre jug just for the hell of it. The first was a bittsa APA. I did the slow hoist and I also let it chill in the kettle over night. Not sure what did it but it was a very clear beer even with 200g of hops (using a hop bag in the boil).

The 2nd brew was a double batch, no chill pils I did in a hurry. I crushed the grain in a hurry and didn't adjust my mill. I ended up with a lot of powder so was expecting alot of trub. The first thing I noticed with both brews was that when I hoisted the bag so that the top of the grain in the bag was level with the top of the wort, haze started to leach out of the sides of the bag at the top straight away. I let it sit there for a while and then hoisted it up really slowly until the bag was about 10mm above the wort. Coz my pot is only 65lt i had to heat up 18lt in another pot so I did a half assed sparge with it. My bag has 4 handles so I left one off the hoist hook and poured it in the side. I let it drain for about 10 minutes after that and then slowly hoisted it to about 50mm above the wort. I let it drain for a lot longer than normal (?) while I drank some beer. It could have drained forever so I took the bag out. I got really lazy and didn't use a hop bag in the boil which I haven't done for a while. Even with the double batch it wasn't that much. I nearly filled both cubes with very little trub and very clear wort.

I always use BrewBright but I think it is the clearest wort I have ever had straight out of the kettle. I think I have improved my brewing process lately but even so I think the slow lift is a great technique. Maybe a usual brew day for some but a huge improvement for me and I got 1.058 from an expected 1.050. Ill dilute with some boiled water. The pic is what I took straight of the top before I "whirlpooled" and let it settle for a reading.



edit:mill powder


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## Bribie G (9/5/16)

Bump.
Well done Nosco

Here's today's _total _trub from an English IPA




I had seriously been thinking of getting a Grainfather to get clearer wort but well chuffed with my experiments. 

At the risk of thrashing the subject to death I think the "BIAB excessive trub" thing comes from a long standing misconception that you can't get an effective grain bed from BIAB, so don't even think about that, just hoist away as quickly as possible because BIAB is so quick and easy and we'll show these 3v bastards.

Cue pirate music: Hoist away lads hoist away


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## Mozz (10/5/16)

I have been inspired by these posts to reduce the trub in my BIAB. To date I've had litres of the stuff.
I'm recircing at mashout for 15 minutes and then slowly lifting the bag. The bag sits on a raised tray in the kettle so it's an easy process to start the gas and recirc to mashout. 
The grain definitely forms an effective grain bed and filters the wort. You can watch the wort clear up.
I have also been throwing hop pellets straight into the boil but last run used a hop bag (which I positioned to catch extra hot break as a sort of filter). I had virtually no trub. My only limit to draining the kettle was the position of the drain. Very happy with the result.


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## RdeVjun (10/5/16)

Excellent findings above, I'll relate that I too find a very similar experience since adopting a slow lift. The take home message is to take your time at the end of the mash, there's plenty of opportunity to get the bag drained and runnings into the boil, adding during it is fine.


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