# New 60l Setup



## hughman666 (5/4/12)

So I've been mucking around for a while, Braumeister or not, that's been the question.

I dicked around with an urn but the concealed element killed any chance of a good rolling boil, plus 40L was just a bit too small if I wanted to occasionally do a double batch.

So I put together a shopping list and it came in at pretty much $500, give or take.

This is what I put together. Basically the pump draws wort from the bottom and returns it to the top of the mash. With a single batch the mash pot sits above the wort line so it's basically fly sparing the whole time.

A double batch will raise the wort line up to around halfway up the mash pot...

I need to mount the pump and thermostat...








The control box. Thermostat with switch on the side for the pump.



Inside without the malt pipe, you can see the false bottom (to keep hops etc out of the final dump into the fermenter(s)), element and thermowell.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (5/4/12)

You have been busy, does it work? 
Are you drinking any beer from it ?
Come back we miss you  
Nev


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## hughman666 (5/4/12)

I've just mashed in and it's re-circing, although very slowly.

Time constraints (i.e. work) meant that I couldn't get a 2nd false bottom for the mash pot so I just drilled holes for now.

Next weekend I'll cut the bottom of the mash pot out, leaving approx 1 inch rim to sit the false on, should be the goods after that.

In the meantime though, very pleased with how it's going.

That brown pump is fantastic!! You can barely hear it and it moves a LOT of liquid for its size...

Also, I'll be back in a few weeks, I'll bring a growler along...



Gryphon Brewing said:


> You have been busy, does it work?
> Are you drinking any beer from it ?
> Come back we miss you
> Nev


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## Dan Pratt (5/4/12)

That looks like a nice 1v setup, Im in the process of something similar. 

The brown pump? What amperage 12v power adapter are you powering that with? And how many litres per minute would you say its pumping at?


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## QldKev (5/4/12)

Pratty1 said:


> That looks like a nice 1v setup, Im in the process of something similar.
> 
> The brown pump? What amperage 12v power adapter are you powering that with? And how many litres per minute would you say its pumping at?



http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=63316&hl=


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## joshuahardie (5/4/12)

That is a nice setup.
Exactly the way I had pondered doing it, so I will be interested to hear the thoughts after a few brews.

Is there any reason that BM pumps from the bottom to the top, it seems to be more logical to do it your way.


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## hughman666 (5/4/12)

I'm sure there's a reason the BM pumps from the bottom up but I had investigated doing it that way and there was just more plumbing involved.

My way is simpler I guess but it means you have a bit more visible hosing etc.



joshuahardie said:


> That is a nice setup.
> Exactly the way I had pondered doing it, so I will be interested to hear the thoughts after a few brews.
> 
> Is there any reason that BM pumps from the bottom to the top, it seems to be more logical to do it your way.


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## benno1973 (5/4/12)

That's a really nice tidy setup. So that's a 60L pot there? And will do double batches (i.e. 40L) of standard gravity?

Sorry, disregard the question. I just re-read your post...


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## hughman666 (5/4/12)

It's boiling away now, not a full-on rolling boil though, so I will be investing in a 2nd element shortly.

It's good enough, just not as furious as I like...

I had a couple of PMs asking for the shopping list I used. I got everything apart from the brown pump (thanks Nev!) and copper piping (Reece Plumbing) from Keg King in Springvale VIC. No affiliation etc.

Here it is:

1 x 66L SS Pot
1 x 20L SS Pot
1 x Ball valve
1 x 5cm SS 1/2" BSP threaded pipe
1 x Thermostat (16 amp)
1 x False Bottom (12")
1 x Element
1 x Thermowell
2M silicon hose
3 x female SS 1/2" BSP disconnects (1 x for the kettle ball valve and 2 x for the brown pump)
3 x male SS 1/2" BSP barbed disconnects
6 x SS hose clamps
1 x Brown Pump
1M soft copper piping

All up it came to approx $500.


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## hughman666 (5/4/12)

Mate, I'm just using an old 6A laptop power supply. Cut the end off, stripped the wires etc, all good.



Pratty1 said:


> That looks like a nice 1v setup, Im in the process of something similar.
> 
> The brown pump? What amperage 12v power adapter are you powering that with? And how many litres per minute would you say its pumping at?


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## BlackRat (5/4/12)

joshuahardie said:


> Is there any reason that BM pumps from the bottom to the top, it seems to be more logical to do it your way.



I was trying to figure this out also.

I was worried that having the water drain through the gain could create "tunnels" for the liquid to run through, meaning the grain wouldn't be evenly exposed to the liquid. An example of this is a potted plant, after a few waters the water makes a tunnel through the dirt making it easy for the water to escape without be absorbed by the dirt.

If this does occur, the only way this can be ovoid is to submerge the grain entirely into the liquid.

I _believe_ the reason the BM pumps the water up through the malt pipe is to avoid this exact problem. Gravity works against the liquid to ensure no "tunnels" are created within the grain. Essentially turning it into one big compression chamber with gravity pulling the gain down whilst the pump is pushing the water through it.

But.....I could be wrong.

BlackRat.


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## Tim F (5/4/12)

Looks good! I made a pretty similar setup. The only problem with the design is depending on grain bed thickness and grain type the pump will sometimes empty the outer pot of liquid faster than it can drain out of the mash pot, so the pump eventually runs dry unless you are there to throttle it back all the time or unless the inner pot overflows, which defeats the purpose. The reason traditional herms/BM etc don't work this way is by either sucking or pushing wort through the grain bed they aren't relying on gravity at any point, the speed wort moves through the grain dictates how fast the pump goes.


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## Feldon (5/4/12)

hughman666 said:


> That brown pump is fantastic!! You can barely hear it and it moves a LOT of liquid for its size...



Do you think the brown pump has enough oomph to push wort up through the grain bed? (ie. the reverse of what you currently are doing).
I like your set up - straight forward and sensible. Hope it works out for you.


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## hughman666 (6/4/12)

I've found that throttling back the ball valve allowed me to achieve a consistent 2 inches of water on top of the mash. 

This means that the entire mash is submerged and should avoid any channeling.

I've since cut the bottom of the mash pot out and have fitted a false bottom. This will let the mash pot drain quicker allowing the ball valve to open up a bit more.

I'm not really bothered with pumping wort through the mash too quickly, as long as the mash temp is kept constant, thats my main aim.


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## seamad (6/4/12)

Couple of brews ago i broke a part of my system that pumps wort up through the malt pipe on the second rest of a multistep mash. Couldnt fix it at the time so raced into the shed and bent a copper pipe and drilled some holes in it and set it up basically the same as your setup.
Had to dick around with the valve to get the flowrate correct but it worked fine in the end. I have since changed the rig a bit to pump up again as basically once doughed in the pid takes over and it needs no supervision which is the major benefit of pumping up versus the gravity down system.
Cheers
sean


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## hughman666 (6/4/12)

You're right, it does take a bit of adjustment but once you know the flow rate it's pretty straightforward. Of course the required flow rate will change based on density of the grist etc.

The mash pot cost me $35 so I'm open to the idea of buying another one and pumping up at a later stage. It will basically need 2 holes to be drilled in the base of the pot and a 15cm SS pipe.



seamad said:


> Couple of brews ago i broke a part of my system that pumps wort up through the malt pipe on the second rest of a multistep mash. Couldnt fix it at the time so raced into the shed and bent a copper pipe and drilled some holes in it and set it up basically the same as your setup.
> Had to dick around with the valve to get the flowrate correct but it worked fine in the end. I have since changed the rig a bit to pump up again as basically once doughed in the pid takes over and it needs no supervision which is the major benefit of pumping up versus the gravity down system.
> Cheers
> sean


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## seamad (6/4/12)

Big W 19l stockpot $20. Nice and thin too so easy to drill/cut.


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## hughman666 (6/4/12)

They didnt have any at my local :-(

Good old Asian grocery store came to the rescue. It's actually a bit thicker which I guess is good because the bolts drilled into the sides hold the weight of the mash and accompanying liquid...



seamad said:


> Big W 19l stockpot $20. Nice and thin too so easy to drill/cut.


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## rodda (6/4/12)

Not wanting to hijack the thread but I thought i'd show you how I've been doing it and it works. Same principal as draining through bottom of pot, but I run it through a false bottom and a pickup so it comes out the side, beer is good. Big W pot for mash with false bottom, just match up the outflow to the flow into the mash and I can walk away. 

As for the BM pushing up from the bottom I'd say it is to get better efficiency, as there is no compacting or channeling, grains can float around happily its like a constant stirring action. Mine does suffer avaerage efficiency, only a dollar or two in extra grain




Mash in and recirculating to clear it up a little first



Mashing, out of the pot, into the keg (with element) and out the bottom again through pump and into the mash




Mash



Boiling away.


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## MastersBrewery (6/4/12)

rodda said:


> Not wanting to hijack the thread but I thought i'd show you how I've been doing it and it works. Same principal as draining through bottom of pot, but I run it through a false bottom and a pickup so it comes out the side, beer is good.




You wouldnt have a pic of the mash pot setup, I think I understand what you mean but a picture would make it clearer, oh and what element setup you using?

edit spelling


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## BlackRat (6/4/12)

seamad said:


> Couple of brews ago i broke a part of my system that pumps wort up through the malt pipe on the second rest of a multistep mash. Couldnt fix it at the time so raced into the shed and bent a copper pipe and drilled some holes in it and set it up basically the same as your setup.
> Had to dick around with the valve to get the flowrate correct but it worked fine in the end. I have since changed the rig a bit to pump up again as basically once doughed in the pid takes over and it needs no supervision which is the major benefit of pumping up versus the gravity down system.
> Cheers
> sean



Hey Sean, it would be great to see some shots / get some more info of your build so we can see the difference between the two.

Did you get your PID from ebay?

Cheers,
BlackRat


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## Maheel (7/4/12)

Hey Hugh and Rodda 

how do you reckon a copper manifold or SS braid would go in the 20L pot ?


great looking rigs


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## bignath (7/4/12)

Anyone else think there should be sticky on rigs like this? 

There seems to be a huge number of people currently building there own version of a braumeister, or single vessel recirculating brewery. Something seperate from a standard BIAB. 
Seems a lot of people are combining the simplicity of BIAB, with some level of automation/control.

Im a couple of days away from finishing my build and posting another thread on it, so is it a good idea for a thread to combined into a central location where others can get ideas before they build there own?


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## Feldon (7/4/12)

Yes please.


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## seamad (7/4/12)

Blackrat,
Have posted set up , blackdog brewmaster, however have changed a bit since then. Will be brewing next couple of days so will take some picks.
Agree that a seperate topic combining all these types of rigs would be benificial as they are all over the place. Was going to post new pictures in mathos brewmater @#$%&% if im paying that...
Ive got a auber instruments multi step pid with their temp probe, excellant bit of kit.
Hopefully will brew sunday/ monday and post some new details on my system, pretty happy with it now ( made a few stuffups along the way)
Cheers
Sean


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## Jazzafish (7/4/12)

rodda said:


> Not wanting to hijack the thread but I thought i'd show you how I've been doing it and it works. Same principal as draining through bottom of pot, but I run it through a false bottom and a pickup so it comes out the side, beer is good. Big W pot for mash with false bottom, just match up the outflow to the flow into the mash and I can walk away.
> 
> As for the BM pushing up from the bottom I'd say it is to get better efficiency, as there is no compacting or channeling, grains can float around happily its like a constant stirring action. Mine does suffer avaerage efficiency, only a dollar or two in extra grain
> 
> ...



Nice Rig!

I put up with an average efficiency in my HERMS gear for a few years. Calculated recipes at 70% hit 75% on a good day, but there were a few sad brews that were in the higher 60's.

Now I have posted this in a few other threads, but I have made two changes to my technique that has given me a consistent 80 to 85% efficiency over the last 5 brews. 

Change 1: Stop the pump and stir the mash half way through. Don't worry, the wort will be HERMS clear again in a few mins or less. Basically, I was noticing a membrane of dust/fine grain forming on top of the grain bed. This was obviously resisting the flow of liquid and encouraging some channeling, limiting the sugar extraction from the grain in some parts of the mash. In addition, the grain was compacting around my false bottom - which you can really feel at the end of the paddle.

Change 2: Cut the grain bed before the sparge. I use the pointy end of a coopers spoon to cut a 1cm x 1cm grid in the grain bed all the way to the bottom. OK, not applicable for batch spargers, but the grain bed compacts when you run a pump, this amplifies if there is more grain weight in higher gravity batches. Cutting is not as aggressive as a stir but will give you control over the channeling and loosen the compaction. After a cut I collect ~ 1 liter in a jug at sparge flow rates before the wort is HERMS clear again.

2 changes, minimal time impact, 10 to 15% increase in efficiency over the last 5 brews. Works for me, give it a try.


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## hughman666 (9/4/12)

That looks to be on the money, I've cut the bottom out of my original mash pot and will give it a bash with the false bottom as per my original plan.

If I still find the runoff to be too slow I'll have a bash at your method. The thing I like about your method is no splashing on returning the wort to the kettle. I can just re-use the thermowell hole for the inlet to the kettle. Just thinking having an elbow joint on the inside of that return would then double as a whirlpool...

More pics would be great too!

Thanks!




rodda said:


> Not wanting to hijack the thread but I thought i'd show you how I've been doing it and it works. Same principal as draining through bottom of pot, but I run it through a false bottom and a pickup so it comes out the side, beer is good. Big W pot for mash with false bottom, just match up the outflow to the flow into the mash and I can walk away.
> 
> As for the BM pushing up from the bottom I'd say it is to get better efficiency, as there is no compacting or channeling, grains can float around happily its like a constant stirring action. Mine does suffer avaerage efficiency, only a dollar or two in extra grain
> 
> ...


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## rodda (13/4/12)

Maheel, I reckon the SS braid may colapse but the copper should do the trick

Big Nath, Thats a great idea, I used the RIMS and HERMS threads to get ideas. 

Thanks Jazzafish, I give it a whirl today, sounds the goods. 

hughman666, having the open bottom pot was my original idea too, can't really remember what swayed me this way, Think it was to control the outflow and I liked the idea of recirculating to get rid of the big bits (set up a grain bed) before I ran it over the element. If yours works well I may even change it. Seems easier. Yep having an elbow was the next thing to use as a whirlpool!

Here is the bottom of the mash pot, Just a brass pipe that is just off the bottom as a pickup and the nut lets me anchor the falsie. 




the element is one of those standard SS jobs that you can get all over the place. Goes wel,l Ive got a drain in the bottom you can just see that goes straight to...well..a drain. Cleaning is a breeze.


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## fergi (13/4/12)

i see you have tri clover fittings in there, very easy to pull apart, nice setup Rodda.



fergi


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## notung (13/4/12)

> Anyone else think there should be sticky on rigs like this?



Great idea.


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## hughman666 (18/4/12)

Ok so I got the new pot, fittings etc.

This is how the revised mash pot looks:

Elbow at the bottom to return wort to the kettle




Inside...




With the mash return:




The elbow returning the wort to the kettle (there is 4" of silicone hosing attached to the elbow, submerged approx 2" below the surface of the wort, to avoid splashing):




Mashed in, continually sparging at 65c. Flow control set at the kettle ball valve and it's been sitting 2" above the grain bed for the whole mash. Perfection!




Really happy with this now. Final steps are:
- move the thermowell to the side of the mash pot:
- add an elbow and ball valve to the original thermowell spot for whirlpool
- build housing for the electrics and pump...

Thanks to Rodda for showing me a different way of doing the mash pot!


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## rodda (18/4/12)

No dramas, that looks great! I'm sure it works a treat too. Once you get the flow matched up it is basically hands off
Great stuff


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## black_labb (6/5/12)

What are your thoughts about placement of the temp probe, in the mash or in the reservoir waiting to be pumped? Have you checked the difference in temp between the mash and the reservoir as the circulation progresses?

Also what do you think about using the 20L mashing vessel? is the size reasonable for a double batch and how much grain do you think you could effectively use in there?

Looks great.


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## dkaos (28/5/12)

black_labb said:


> What are your thoughts about placement of the temp probe, in the mash or in the reservoir waiting to be pumped? Have you checked the difference in temp between the mash and the reservoir as the circulation progresses?
> 
> Also what do you think about using the 20L mashing vessel? is the size reasonable for a double batch and how much grain do you think you could effectively use in there?
> 
> Looks great.



From reading other threads black_labb I've seen 5-6kg seems to be the max that will sit in a 19L BigW pot. So use that as a benchmark.

Cheers,

Clint


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