# Sodium Metasulphite For Chloramine Removal



## KillerRx4

Spent the morning looking online for a water filter to remove chlorine. At some stage I got sidetracked onto Sydney water website for a water analysis. It seems theres very little to no free chlorine in my water, but monochloramine instead. 

So hunting info it seems filtration is next to useless on chloramines. Then i read campden tabs or sodium metasulphite will break it down. So since I think i still have a container of sodium met from the early brewing days somewhere Id like to have a go at it.

Problem is i havent found how much to use...


Any of you guys get involved in this kind of water treatment?


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## Jye

From what I have read you only use a pinch in the HLT. I have only just started reading about water and will be giving it ago next brew day.


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## newguy

KillerRx4 said:


> Problem is i havent found how much to use...
> Any of you guys get involved in this kind of water treatment?



I got this information from the owner of a micro: 1 campden tablet/80 litres water. Now the question is how much does a single campden tablet weigh, and I can't actually measure it. Don't have a scale with that kind of resolution. Sorry. I'd guess that one tablet is about 1/8th teaspoon, volume-wise (about the size of a 325mg aspirin tablet).

The metabisulfite binds the chlorine, rendering it benign. The reaction also involves the creation of chemicals which are yeast nutrients. I've been using this technique for a while now, and while I didn't have a noticeable problem with chlorophenols before, I certainly don't now.

Hope this helps.


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## RobW

I use about 1/8th to 1/4 of a teaspoon of pot. metabisulphite in 20 litres - I don't think you need to be too precise about it.


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## Screwtop

Always include a pince of SodMet in the mash here, tip from G Saunders.


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## KillerRx4

Well thats easy enough. will add a pich to hlt.

Next Q. Does it require any time or filtration to remove the chorine once its broken the chloramine down?


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## DJR

The campden/SMS will remove the chlorine by causing chlorine gas production, what will be left over is some ammonia/ammonium ions - which will be produced by the nitrogenous compounds in the grain when mashing anyway, so if you have chloramines then some metabisulphite will be enough. The quality of my beers improved quite a bit when i started dechlor-ing the water. I had the same thing about chloramines a few weeks ago and found it was fine. Of course a filter designed for chloramines would be nice but if you look at what it removes it's pretty much chlorines and heavy metals, unfortunately there is no cheap filter option for softening the water that doesn't use ion-exchange which will remove all the Ca and other trace metals from the water and replace it with Na and K, RO might be an option but then you have to build your water from scratch. I have a 3-stage RO filter system just waiting to be used, can't be bothered at the moment and just dechlorinate the water anyway!


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## lonte

KillerRx4 said:


> Well thats easy enough. will add a pich to hlt.
> 
> Next Q. Does it require any time or filtration to remove the chlorine once its broken the chloramine down?


I have picked up the belief that it takes "some time" to work. I usually fill the HLT (40L) and add 1/4tsp SodMet give it a stir for a couple of minutes to dissolve it, then leave lid loosely on HLT overnight. Somewhere I have also picked up the belief that the chemical process gives off a gas? I then add a pinch to the mash when doughing-in in the morning - more because that's yet another belief I've picked up that it is also a bit of an oxygen scavenger and can reduce HSA when stirring.


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## tangent

interesting stuff in basicbrewingradio and video about HSA
they say HSA is actually difficult to achieve on a home brew scale and a bit over-hyped. like autolysis was a couple of years ago - remember that? rack your beer or it'll turn into burned rubber instantly?

old what'shisname "relax have a homebrew" uses 1/2tsp of cinnamon in the mash
s'posed to clean up excess oxygen in the water.... or something


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## doglet

Does he use "cinnamon" after too much relaxing having a homebrew??


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## Wolfman

Digging up an old thread.

Was in at a brew shop yesterday looking for Campden tablets. On the packet it said each tablet contained 0.5g of Sodium Metabisulphite. It also said use 3-4 tablets per 20l. This was for wine making though. So assuming this should 0.5g be enough in my water to rid it of Chlorine for a 25L batch?

John Palmer says that one tablet treats 76L although in the video he says they are only treating 30L with no adverse problems.

He also says there is also no need to treat your sparge water? Thoughts? 

I have read previously that you leave it overnight to do it's thing. In this video he just puts it in the HLT. What time frame do people use?

Here's the video 

Any advise would be useful.

Cheers


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## Parks

I have actually been looking into exactly this lately - very timely bump.

I have been using a pinch but would like to know an exact amount too. I will be watching this space...


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## Wolfman

Like I said I went to buy some campden tabs but on the packet it said "0.5g sodium metabisulfate". So my guess is 0.5g?

Did you watch the video Parks?


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## treefiddy

There's some useful info on page 3
http://www.dow.com/scripts/litorder.asp?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-02034.pdf

If you know how much free chlorine is in the water, you can use that info to work out a dose rate.


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## benno1973

I use 1/2 a tablet in 40L of water, but I think that must be based on Palmer's "1 tablet treats 80L" quote. To be honest, it was so long ago that I've forgotten how I calculated it.

Not sure why there's no need to treat sparge water? I'd assume that all water should be treated for chlorine?


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## manticle

Are you noticing an issue with chlorephenols wolfman? No chloramines in melbourne water and strike temp should be enough to get rid of most of the chlorine in your water.

Campden in winemaking is used mainly to kill/retard unwanted microflora as far as I'm aware.


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## Black n Tan

manticle said:


> No chloramines in melbourne water


I thought Melbourne water does contain chloramines (as opposed to hypochlorite), why do you think it doesn't?


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## Wolfman

Mants no not noticing any adverse affects. Was just interested to see if I could take it to another level.


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## manticle

Black n Tan said:


> I thought Melbourne water does contain chloramines (as
> opposed to hypochlorite), why do you think it doesn't?


Melbourne water website. Why do you think it does?

Wolfman- no need to remove something that isn't there although it is one way of getting rid of chlorine too. I'm averse to sulphites in brewing - possibly unnecessarily in this case as I'm not 100% sure of the chemistry of what occurs afterwards and the byproducts probably dissipate.*



If drsmurto was still around, he'd tell you what I can't. I still prefer not to add stuff I don't need to.

*from memory smurto did detail what occurs when he looked at my water chemistry paper and I think I included it in an updated version. When I'm not on a phone, I'll hunt it up - I think there is little to nothing left in the water and I'm just being a big sook. Sulphited wine and cider hurt my head in a way no added sulphite beverages don't.


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## Black n Tan

Manticle, I was under the mistaken impression that Melbourne Water used chloramine (cant remember where I got the idea). My question was just to find some definitive information about what was used rather than suggesting you were wrong. Badly worded query, appreciate the correction.


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## manticle

No dramas. I'm typing on a phone so briefer than I intend to be. Question was fair enough.


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## Wolfman

Brewing a Belgium pale, dry stout and a Porter tomorrow. Will add some sodium Met to see if it makes a difference.

I still welcome a healthy discussion on this topic though.


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## Parks

Wolfman said:


> Like I said I went to buy some campden tabs but on the packet it said "0.5g sodium metabisulfate". So my guess is 0.5g?
> 
> Did you watch the video Parks?


Yeah mate, he's pretty easy to listen to actually.

I am really after a specific "add x grams to remove y PPM chloramine/chlorine". I have been using the "pinch of sodium met" method but I thought I may have added too much.

RE chloramines being a problem - I did an English IPA recently before i started using Sodium Met which stunk of bandaid / rubber. Investigation suggested that chloramines are the most likely cause.


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## treefiddy

> In theory, 1.34 mg of sodium metabisulfite will remove 1.0 mg of free chlorine. In practice,
> however, 3.0 mg of sodium metabisulfite is normally used to remove 1.0 mg of chlorine.


Assuming Brisbane water is 6 ppm (mg/L) chloramine, there would be 0.12 g in 20 L.
So 0.16 g of metabisulfite minimum, 0.36 g maximum.


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## kymba

I was cleaning the fish tank last night and thought of this thread...supposedly, sodium thiosulphate the active ingredient in water aging stuff knocks out chlorine and chloramine instantly. Anyone know if this could be of any use to us brewers?


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## drsmurto

Firstly, I don't understand why you would add a reactive chemical like the metabisulphite ion to your mash if you are not using it to react with another compound. That makes no sense to me.

Secondly, for the metabisulphite ion (S2O52-) to react with a chloramine, it first needs to dissociate into the sulphite ion (SO32-). This is a pH dependant equilibrium. The lower the pH, the more sulphite you get which is why winemakers have to take pH into account when adding it to wine as the higher the pH of the wine, the more metabisulphite they need to add to get SO2 (which is in another pH dependant equilibrium with SO32-) which then protects the wine from oxidation and bacterial spoilage.

The problem you face as brewers is the pH of the mash is ~5.2-5.5 and so the equilibrium is drastically slowed down - ie. the dissociation becomes less favourable and so you need to add a lot more to achieve the amount of sulphite you need to react with chloramine.

Of course, all of this assumes you are doing this in a nice, aqueous solution, not a complex matrix of crushed malt and water. The higher temperature will also change the equilibrium.

So the numbers quoted in this thread and taken from somewhere else are stabs in the dark. I suspect most are adding it in excess.

The other issue you face is that if you do add an excess, once you separate the liquid from the mash and start boiling it, the pH decreases. So any excess metabisulphite in solution is now sped up in its dissociation to sulphite. Sulphite is not volatile, it is an ion and so will not be boiled off.

You are left with the very real possibility of sulphite in the wort when you pitch the yeast. Why is that an issue? Yeast use sulphite as well as sulphate to synthesise the sulphur containing amino acids they need. One of the by products of this synthesis is H2S - hydrogen sulphide. Yeast strains vary in the amount of H2S they produce, how much of it is used up to produce the amino and how much they release into the wort. I have not met anyone who likes the smell of H2S.

Hope that is of some use. Happy to continue this discussion and help destroy some of the myths and give you a better understanding of the science. Sulfur chemistry is what I get paid to do.


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## benno1973

Great explanation, thanks for that. The only thing I'd mention is that you're talking about adding it to the mash, but the general theme is treating HLT water prior to mashing, which means an aqueous solution with a higher pH. But really interesting about the H2S, maybe I should try reducing the amount I add, or just springing for a filter instead...


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## Parks

No one is adding it to the mash directly I don't think. The reading suggests the metabisulfite reacts very quickly in water to break down the chloramine - is this something you suggest is wrong?


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## slash22000

From what I've heard, you add 1/4 of a tablet to the mash water, before the mash. Apparently it only takes a minute or two before it's finished. Removes chlorine and chloramine.

I don't know jack about the science, but if you Google it, you'll find hundreds of brewers doing it worldwide, so even if it doesn't really help, I guess it doesn't hurt?


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## drsmurto

If you are adding it to water then the reaction is a few orders of magnitude slower again.

EDIT - that doesn't mean the reaction won't take place but it will be much slower. If you think it is removed in minutes (and I'll assume you are at least smelling it to check that it has in fact done what you think it has done) then you have added vastly more than needed. Much lower quantities left for a longer time would be a safer option.


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## benno1973

DrSmurto said:


> If you are adding it to water then the reaction is a few orders of magnitude slower again.


Ahh, I see. I just re-read your original post, so that makes sense. I tend to leave it overnight, and there's no chlorine smell, but I still may be adding way too much. The last beer I brewed was a simple pale/wheat with Mosaic hops and has a slight eggy smell and taste. It was confusing because it was a US05 yeast which generally doesn't contribute this, so I'd chalked it up to infection. Still could be, but I guess there's another option given what you mention about H2S.


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## mabrungard

Adding metabisulfite to your brewing water BEFORE ADDING ANY GRAINS is a relatively harmless practice if you limit your dosing to the prescribed amount. You have to perform this treatment before adding the grain since chlorine compounds react almost instantly with wort compounds to create those chlorophenols that create the mediciny taste and aroma in beer. You need to neutralize those chlorine compounds first. 

The one campden tablet per 75 liters of water dosing rate is based on a chlorine or chloramine residual of 3 ppm. That dosage is stoichiometrically derived and should leave very little sulfite residual in the wort. I noted that someone said that one water supply quotes 6 ppm. That would require double the dosage. 

Even if there is a bit of excess metabisulfite added to the brewing water, unreacted metabisulfite is very unstable at high temperature and the boil should break down and drive off the excess. 

As mentioned above, if your water supply uses chlorine, there may not be a need to neutralize the sparging water in the HLT since the chlorine MIGHT be driven off by the heating. But its a big IF. I suggest that treating all brewing water before heating is a wiser choice.


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## Niksko

I'm currently grappling with this issue in Melbourne.

I brewed an IPA about 2 months ago, and every bottle I've opened has had a slightly medicinal taste. I've also experience the exact same flavour in some of the beers my dad has brewed.

I dosed the strike and sparge water for my currently fermenting beer (also an IPA) with potassium metabisulfite, so fingers crossed I can get rid of this taste.


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## manticle

I doubt it's melbourne water.

Either an infection or you are using a chlorine based sanitiser and not rinsing correctly.


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## Wolfman

Mants, do you have the latest Melbourne water report?


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## slash22000

Water reports should be freely available to you, Wolfman. Get in contact with your water supplier and they should be able to provide you with one, they probably have it on the net to download.


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## manticle

Can't post the link at the moment but google 'typical water analysis melbourne'. I think the most recent is 2012.

Somewhere in my email I have the two reservoirs that service your area. I'll have a look.


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## manticle

Brunswick east is supplied by silvan and winneke.


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## slash22000

Recently came across this study in chlorine/chloramine removal from brewing water: http://hbd.org/ajdelange/Brewing_articles/BT_Chlorine.pdf

There is a wicked amount of chemistry all through there, but page 17 has a fairly simple table that compares various methods of chlorine/chloramine removal. I quote:



> "When Campden tablets or sodium metabisulfite are used, all chlorine and chloramine are converted to chloride ion in a matter of a couple of minutes."


This is with adding the recommended amount of 1 tablet per 20 gallons.


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## technobabble66

slash22000 said:


> Recently came across this study in chlorine/chloramine removal from brewing water: http://hbd.org/ajdelange/Brewing_articles/BT_Chlorine.pdf
> 
> There is a wicked amount of chemistry all through there, but page 17 has a fairly simple table that compares various methods of chlorine/chloramine removal. I quote:
> 
> 
> This is with adding the recommended amount of 1 tablet per 20 gallons.


V interesting. Great find.

Note that boiling is also moderately effective: Taking an hr to get 10L to boil roughly halved the chloramine levels, & then an hour of boiling comes close to full removal of chloramine.
However, that's opposed to the Campden tablets (potassium/sodium metabisulfate) which halves chloramine in under a minute, close to full removal in a few minutes.

For that study, 1 tablet = 695mg of roughly pure potassium metabisulfate.
If using sodium metabisulfate, you'd use about 15% less. Though that's an insignificant difference to really stress about.

That's 1 tablet per 20 gallons, assuming the chloramine levels are 3mg/L, and there's no free chlorine.
Free chlorine needs about half the amount of tablet per mg/L.

Page 23-25 has the detail about Campden tablets.

Also,
"Our recommendation of 1 Campden tablet per 20 gallons is designed to cover this nominally “worst case” of 3 mg/L chlorine all as chloramine. In most cases this will be more than required and there will be sulfur dioxide left over after the chlorine has been reduced. Some of this will be driven off when the wort is boiled but some of it will react with organics in the mash reducing them. This results in the formation of “reductones”, i.e. reduced state sub- stances which are considered desirable as they are supposed to prevent oxidation and staling. In reducing organic material in the mash, the sulfur dioxide is converted to sulfate. If all of it undergoes this fate then the maximum found in a brew made from water treated with one Campden tablet per 20 gallons will be about 8 mg/L as calculated above."

"A another convenient rule of thumb is a refinement to the 1 tablet per 20 gallon rule. *Add twice the chloramine value to the free chlorine value and divide by 6. This is the number of tablets required for 20 gallons.* Scale this value accord- ing to how many gallons need to be treated."

"To add fractional tablets, dissolve, or rather suspend, a tablet in 100 mL of water and, just after agitating, measure out the number of mL which corresponds to the percentage fraction required. For example, if a third of a tablet is required, measure out 33 mL."


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## Parks

Based on this report for Brisbane it looks like there is basically zero Chlorine and on average 1.1mg/L Chloramine (I assume that Chloramine is being included under total Chlorine and free Chlorine is listed as zero).

So if I use roughly 40L (10g) for a batch that's half a Campden tablet at 3mg/L Chlorine, or a bit over 1/6th of a tablet (~120mg) @ 1.1mg/L of potassium metabisulfite.

I now see why some use "a pinch" of sodium met in their water assuming the powder is 100% sodium met.

http://www.urbanutilities.com.au/uploads/file/NEW%20Water%20Quality%20Data/1%20Oct%202011%20-%2030%20Sept%202012/Brisbane%20Oct%202011-Sept%202012.pdf

--EDIT-- helps if I attach the link.


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## slash22000

My understanding is that it doesn't really hurt to use too much (within reason of course) which is why they recommend simply 1 tablet per 20 gallons. I dunno if I would be bothered cutting one into sixths.


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## Parks

slash22000 said:


> My understanding is that it doesn't really hurt to use too much (within reason of course) which is why they recommend simply 1 tablet per 20 gallons. I dunno if I would be bothered cutting one into sixths.


The do say within reason so I don't know if 6 times as much as you need qualifies. I know I had a funny "minerally" taste in my last American Amber which could either have been too much sodium met or gypsum or both.

The other thing is I am adding sodium met power so adding close to the correct quantity is much easier than splitting a tablet.


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## manticle

Work out the weight and use sodium met powder instead of a tablet.

Too much of anything is never great. I've mentioned before that sulphites in wine and cider give me a headache (I base this on the fact that low-sulphite wines and no sulphite ciders don't).

Good article on chloramine removal slash.


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## Greg.L

All yeast produce some SO2 as part of their metabolism, some of them quite a bit.(SO2 is the active part of metabisulfite, about 50%) If you are adding such small amounts, wouldnt the SO2 produced by the yeast be enough to do the job, or is it important to get rid of the chloramine before mashing?


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## manticle

I believe it's in the mash where the chemical reactions begin. I will check but chlorine + polyphenols from memory.


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## Parks

Yep, it's the mash you are worried about.


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## Brewing pig

I use ascorbic acid (vitamin C) to remove chlorine and chloramines from my tap water. By-product is ammonia which is a yeast nutrient.
I am no water chemist and rely on https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ to set my brew water chemistry.
Only need about 25mg of pure ascorbic acid for 34 litres of Toowoomba's tap water (about 1 mg/L total chlorine), or a little pinch with my fingers.
A 25g pack from my LHBS will do me for 1000 brews. A little goes a long way. Any more, if unreacted with chlorine, would acidify the water.
Also use ~3-4% acidulated malt and always check the mash pH and haven't had any problems.
I get the monthly water quality report from the local council and use this with the Bru'n spreadsheet.
Most of my brews just need 6-8 g of gypsum added to my 34 litres of Toowoomba starting water.


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## Adr_0

has anyone else used ascorbic acid, sodium ascorbate or calcium ascorbate to remove chlorine/chloramines?


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## sluggerdog

Looking into this I did a quick google for Sodium Metabisulphite, the following came up. Is this the same thing that people are using in their mash water? I'm sure I have some of this at home somewhere from my earlier brewing days before I woke up and started using starsan.

(This being a sterilizer is the confusion on my part). I'd be adding it to Brisbane water.


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## 2much2spend

sluggerdog said:


> Looking into this I did a quick google for Sodium Metabisulphite, the following came up. Is this the same thing that people are using in their mash water? I'm sure I have some of this at home somewhere from my earlier brewing days before I woke up and started using starsan.
> 
> (This being a sterilizer is the confusion on my part). I'd be adding it to Brisbane water.


My understanding is that of you use this in with citric acid then it becomes a perestive too.


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## rude

Had a read of the thread about the Janet's Brown recipe on The Electric Brewery the other day
It was under general recipe discussion started by Pratty 1
They use potassium metabisulphite heres what they said

*Potassium metabisulphite*
Popular with wine makers, *potassium metabisulphite* is used to help preserve and prevent oxidation in wine. It often comes in 500mg tablet form called '*campden tablets*' but be aware that campden tablets can be either sodium or potassium metabisulphite. We recommend limiting the use of sodium in beer so make sure to use the *potassium metabisulphite* version if you go with tablet form.
In beer making potassium metabisulphite is used to remove chlorine or chloramine from the tap water. If left in, chlorine or chloramine can give beer a band-aid or plastic taste. 
Chlorine or chloramine is added to most public water supplies to kill disease-causing bacteria that the water or its transport pipes might contain. Brewers from years ago used to be able to simply leave water to sit out overnight to allow chlorine to evaporate but most municipalities now use chloramine instead as it is more stable (doesn't break down or evaporate as easily). Leaving it out overnight will do next to nothing.
Typical municipalities use up to 3 ppm of chlorine or chloramine in their water. 500mg of *potassium metabisulphite* is enough to treat up to 20 gallons of water. This is perfect for our setup as we always start with 20 gallons of strike/sparge water and our municipality uses 2 ppm of chloramine. Check your municipal water report to see what is used in your region. Most, by law, must publish water reports yearly that show the average levels of various chemicals. If in doubt, assume your municipality uses chlorine or chloramine in the water (as most do). There's no harm in using 500mg of potassium metabisulphite in your brewing water. The effect on the other water properties is negligible.
Some brewers choose instead to use *charcoal based water filters* to remove chlorine or chloramine. Charcoal filters remove less chlorine/chloramine as they become saturated, and the amount removed is directly related to the speed at which the water is passed through the filter. So how do you know when to change your filter or at what speed to filter? Good question. We have no idea! This is why we use *potassium metabisulphite* in 500mg tablet form instead. It's quick, dirt cheap, and works instantaneously.


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## panzerd18

I use 1/2 campden tablet per 23 litre batch.


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## sluggerdog

Where can I find potassium metasulphite in Brisbane? I'm not having much luck finding it. Thanks


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## manticle

Craftbrewer have it on their website.1.50 for 4g.


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## djar007

Has there been a poll done on who uses what. I see a lot of people filtering with carbon, and a few using sodium or potassium met. Some research suggests boiling, or standing water for many days will reduce. But none is as effective as the met additions . well not as quick to do the job at the very least. For me the sodium met addition is cheap, last minute and the compounds left as a result of the conversion are not of a quantity that will impact the beer. Why is it that from my limited understanding of commercial brewing they carbon filter the water?


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## sp0rk

Just wondering if anyone came to a consensus on what amount of Sodium Met to use in place of a Campden Tablet eventually?
@MHB any input?
My water filter cracked after I dropped it the other week and I'd really like to brew tomorrow, but I'd rather not use unfiltered tank water (I don't trust all the dirt and shit we get blown over from the mines here)
So I guess it's back to shitty Muswellbrook town water, not having time to get over to Newcastle to get Campden Tablets, the Brigalow Sanitiser will have to be my next best bet.


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## MHB

Works out at about 1 Campden tablet per 100L to remove Cl, each tablet is about 0.44g. K-met or 0.5g of Na-Met
You are going to need pretty accurate scales, or get a bit more creative, you could weigh a small portion and dissolve it in a measured amount of water, then use C1V1=C2V2 to work out how much of the liquid to use, wont last long, so tip out the excess it wont keep till next brew.
For example 10g Na-Met dissolved in 1L of water will give you 10.0g/L
At 0.5g/100L you want 0.005g/L to kill the Cl
If you were treating say 35L, plug what you have into the dilution equation
(x)L*10.0g/L=35*0.005g/L same as (x)L=(35*0.005)/10 you need 0.0175L or 17.5mL


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## sp0rk

MHB said:


> Works out at about 1 Campden tablet per 100L to remove Cl, each tablet is about 0.44g. K-met or 0.5g of Na-Met
> You are going to need pretty accurate scales, or get a bit more creative, you could weigh a small portion and dissolve it in a measured amount of water, then use C1V1=C2V2 to work out how much of the liquid to use, wont last long, so tip out the excess it wont keep till next brew.
> For example 10g Na-Met dissolved in 1L of water will give you 10.0g/L
> At 0.5g/100L you want 0.005g/L to kill the Cl
> If you were treating say 35L, plug what you have into the dilution equation
> (x)L*10.0g/L=35*0.005g/L same as (x)L=(35*0.005)/10 you need 0.0175L or 17.5mL


Thanks Mark, that's great
I should have remembered C1V1=C2V2 from uni (only did chem last year) but I've already blocked it out to try and remember the microbio stuff


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## MHB

All brewers should have it tattooed on the inside of there eyelids 
M


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