# Heating elements - voltage control



## mofox1 (7/5/14)

Hey all,

I've been thinking about getting a couple of the Camco 3500W low density elements link for my HLT and BK. These look good and seem to have good reviews here there and everywhere...

What I haven't seen much about is using SCR voltage controllers here and here to adjust the temps.

Has anyone had any experience with them?

I like the idea better than putting two elements in (one for ramp), or hanging a hand held one down the side. My alternative is PID control, which I will get to... but I want to get a manual feel for my brewery before I start 'lecking it up too much.

Cheers,
Mick


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## sp0rk (7/5/14)

Voltage won't let you control the temp directly, moreso it will slow the increase of temp
These work great for still boilers, not so much an HLT or brew kettle (it might work OK for a kettle, I guess)
I'd just stick with a PID


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## mofox1 (7/5/14)

It's mostly for the kettle. I figured at $10 or $20 bucks a pop I could get two! :lol:

Honestly, the pid thing won't happen yet. I've just started AG, and things are going to be manual for a while. 

As soon as I start obsessing/playing with PIDs and SSRs I'll want to bring in a pump, and then another and before you know it I'll have shelled out for Nev's full Herms kit. Not that that's a bad thing... It's just that I'd rather not have to sleep on the couch for a week.

Edit: autocorrect screw ups. 

Cheers, 
Mick


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## mofox1 (7/5/14)

mofox1 said:


> I'd rather not have to sleep on the couch for a week.


On second thought, if that's all it took...


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## AndrewQLD (7/5/14)

mofox1 said:


> It's mostly for the kettle. I figured at $10 or $20 bucks a pop I could get two! :lol:
> 
> Honestly, the pid thing won't happen yet. I've just started AG, and things are going to be manual for a while.
> 
> ...


Wouldn't want you to waste your money, I can't see a problem with the voltage controllers you have linked to, they will allow you to regulate the voltage to your elements which in turn will reduce or increase the wattage of your elements so you can adjust the roll of the boil to your satisfaction. Not sure if you might need the controllers to have a bit more grunt though.


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## dent (7/5/14)

I made the equivalent of one of those for the 3600W element in one of my kettles. It is very useful since at full power the boil can be too vigorous to stay in the kettle, but full power is still available to decrease the time taken to get the the boil. Also saves on electricity cost to some extent.


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## mofox1 (7/5/14)

Any pics Dent?

I'd like to have the control unit on the kettle, but can't think of a way to keep that safe (waterproof). For simplicity sake I'm thinking of a nice long lead to a electrical box containing the unit, a 15A GPO and a short plug.

Also, that way I can just use one unit and/or have one for backup.

Would you prefer one of the ebay links over the other? Only a 200W difference between the two, and while I like the price I'm not sure I could trust 15A to something so tiny as the first one.

Cheers,
Mick


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## dent (7/5/14)

I'll post a picture sometime when it isn't raining on the way to the shed. I put a sealed enclosure with a 15A IEC socket on the kettle so it is easy to disconnect to clean etc, and the control box is halfway along the 15A IEC lead. The control box is diecast ali and it does get fairly warm. I would want a good heatsink on your controller. 

I actually have one of those cheap ones you linked around somewhere, I haven't gotten around to using it for anything yet. The heatsink is probably adequate within the rating of the device, but that doesn't mean it won't get pretty hot.


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## QldKev (7/5/14)

I used the first one for a while on a smaller element, it worked great. But when I put it onto a 2,200w Keg King element it would not control it, the element just stayed at 100%. I'm not sure why, since the controller is rated to a lot more. In true form the Keg King element blew up, but I have not tried the controller on the new element..

Get your sparky to build a voltage controller using a resistence SSR and a pot, it works a treat with everything I have tried it with. 






btw, there is a heat sink mounted behind the SSR


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## TheWiggman (7/5/14)

That's a great idea dent, I've got a 3600W element too and some control would ideal. Never even thought of it. Please share. 
OP to be honest if voltage control was good for managing temps I think you'd see people use them. There are two types of PID - analogue and digital. The on/off digital types used here are simple, reliable and in the scheme of things cheap. Commit to it and you'll spend more time making good beer, and less time fiddling with poorly functioning temp controllers.


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## mofox1 (7/5/14)

dent said:


> I put a sealed enclosure with a 15A IEC socket on the kettle so it is easy to disconnect to clean etc, and the control box is halfway along the 15A IEC lead.


Fair enough, that's a couple less connections than what I was thinking of. 

You're confident that the IEC socket on the kettle is water proof enough? That's the main reason I would want a fixed lead to the kettle. 

Cheers, 
Mick


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## dent (7/5/14)

Yeah the pins in the socket are moulded into the plastic. 

In any event you should always have the kettle, element, and any other associated exposed metal earthed, along with an RCD on the brewery, so if it does happen to leak somehow, you don't find out about it the hard way.


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## mofox1 (8/5/14)

QldKev said:


> I used the first one for a while on a smaller element, it worked great. But when I put it onto a 2,200w Keg King element it would not control it, the element just stayed at 100%. I'm not sure why, since the controller is rated to a lot more. In true form the Keg King element blew up, but I have not tried the controller on the new element..


Yeah - The contents of this forum is a good reason why I never considered the keg king elements!



> Get your sparky to build a voltage controller using a resistence SSR and a pot, it works a treat with everything I have tried it with.


Nice one.

You can even pick up a complete kit at http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/140553985193, although you can still do better by picking the individual components.

Add in a short 15A IEC lead as mentioned by Dent, and this is a nice simple solution for my pre-automation age electric brewery B).

Cheers,
Mick


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## mofox1 (8/5/14)

dent said:


> Yeah the pins in the socket are moulded into the plastic.
> 
> In any event you should always have the kettle, element, and any other associated exposed metal earthed, along with an RCD on the brewery, so if it does happen to leak somehow, you don't find out about it the hard way.


Fair enough, sounds good (providing a liberal use of a silcone sealant around the fitting as well). You use a C14 or C20?

Everything is going to be earthed, including the metal trolley/frame/whatever when I get it. And I certainly have a RCD - I had hoped it was regulation these days but so far only WA mandates their use?

When I get around to automating the thing there will be an RCD in the control panel too.

Now I regret giving a bunch of left-over RCD's to a sparky mate a few years back because "I had no use for them". Bah!

Cheers,
Mick


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## mrsupraboy (12/5/14)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261313519637?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648


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## spog (12/5/14)

Slightly OT but as a power output control would an electric ceiling fan speed control box do the same job ?
Cheers.....spog.....


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## TheWiggman (12/5/14)

Wouldn't recommend it spog. The ceiling fans don't pull much power and any 240V water heating element would almost certainly exceed the rating of the fan controller.


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## JaseH (12/5/14)

mofox1 said:


> What I haven't seen much about is using SCR voltage controllers here and here to adjust the temps.


Yep, I have one on my rig, works great.

I use it to turn the 3600W element down at the start of the boil because the first runnings from the mash only just covers the element - this way I can start bringing it up temp whilst I'm vorlaufing the sparge without fear of burning anything.

I originally got it because I thought the full 3600W might boil a bit too vigorously but its just about right for a 30-40L, so probably not really needed but it does the job well for the price.


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## mofox1 (12/5/14)

Frothie said:


> Yep, I have one on my rig, works great.
> 
> I use it to turn the 3600W element down at the start of the boil because the first runnings from the mash only just covers the element - this way I can start bringing it up temp whilst I'm vorlaufing the sparge without fear of burning anything.
> 
> I originally got it because I thought the full 3600W might boil a bit too vigorously but its just about right for a 30-40L, so probably not really needed but it does the job well for the price.


Ah well, I ended up getting the resistance SSR as Kev suggested, but I really should have got one of the SCR ones as I now have to assemble more pieces by hand (and it was a bit more $ too).

Still need an enclosure, heat sink and 15A IEC cable to mutilate.

For now, I'm assuming I'll only need it for my singles. When I start the doubles (which I'm not doing until a get a pump or two) it'll need to be fully cranked. Maybe even with a neoprene/campmat jacket too (or whatever is not going to melt onto my kettle anyway).

Cheers.


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## mrsupraboy (12/5/14)

The one i posted doesnt need a heatsink. But anyone using and of these I would recomend a cooling fan.


On the one u just bought make sure u have a fan and an anolog voltage controller


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## mrsupraboy (12/5/14)

spog said:


> Slightly OT but as a power output control would an electric ceiling fan speed control box do the same job ?
> Cheers.....spog.....


Not really ot. As the original poster posted one which requires alot more technical knowledge. Yes a ceiling fan speed control would do the same thing depending on the size of it, most of them are barely rated at 2a


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## smbjk (12/5/14)

Hi guys. Have to recommend five star distilling elements. Best elements by far! Super awesome site and products. I have a couple of them and never had a problem.




Picture of the element with diy element guard



The guards







Some pics of the element and voltage control box


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## mofox1 (13/5/14)

QldKev said:


> I used the first one for a while on a smaller element, it worked great. But when I put it onto a 2,200w Keg King element it would not control it, the element just stayed at 100%. I'm not sure why, since the controller is rated to a lot more. In true form the Keg King element blew up, but I have not tried the controller on the new element..
> 
> Get your sparky to build a voltage controller using a resistence SSR and a pot, it works a treat with everything I have tried it with.
> 
> ...


A bit slow with this follow-up Kev, but can you post pics of the outside if possible? Is that a rivet to hold the heatsink?...

Mick


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## QldKev (14/5/14)

mofox1 said:


> A bit slow with this follow-up Kev, but can you post pics of the outside if possible? Is that a rivet to hold the heatsink?...
> 
> Mick


Yep sure is a rivet to hold the heat sink in place.


We also ended up throwing a volt meter on the front to look flash







The heat sink is from Jaycar
A rivet either end to hold it in place.
Self drilling screws mount the SSR to the heat sink. You can even see the thread of the other end of the SSR screw. 
Remember to use a small amount of thermal paste between the SSR and heat sink.


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## mofox1 (14/5/14)

QldKev said:


> We also ended up throwing a volt meter on the front to look flash


Loving the instrumentation!

Mick.


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## mofox1 (14/5/14)

My yet-to-be-designed control panel needs (yes, needs) an analog meter... probably an ammeter.

Shamelessly going to steal your idea. h34r:

Mick.


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## hotmelt (14/5/14)

Punkin has this kit on his website (stilldragon.com.au) for $40 I think but you'll have to wait till the 22nd when he gets back from holiday.
http://www.stilldragon.com/diy-controller.html


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## mofox1 (12/8/14)

Belated update my element voltage control box.

Turned out very similar to Mr Kev's, kudos to the design idea 

Bit's of kit:






Cut-outs done, heatsink cut down & tapped:





Component assembly:





Complete:





But this pic looks better 





It's a nice piece of kit - it's done two brews and the heat sink gets evenly warm. Pity I'm already getting components for my electric brewery control panel, which will make this little fella redundant.


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## JaseH (29/8/14)

mofox1 said:


> What I haven't seen much about is using SCR voltage controllers here and here to adjust the temps.
> 
> Has anyone had any experience with them?


Well my voltage controller the same as linked to here finally blew up last night mid boil. It did last a couple of years, but I think the max rating([email protected]) for a 3600W element is on the edge and I'd have to advise not to go with it. Would probably be fine for 2400W element though?


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## lukasfab (24/9/14)

Do we know if punkin is still doing these kits?




hotmelt said:


> Punkin has this kit on his website (stilldragon.com.au) for $40 I think but you'll have to wait till the 22nd when he gets back from holiday.
> http://www.stilldragon.com/diy-controller.html
> 
> 
> ...


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## sp0rk (24/9/14)

http://www.stilldragon.com.au/diy-controller-kit/
Still available on his site
Haven't heard a whisper from him on any of the forums I know he vists in a long time, though


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## jonnir (24/9/14)

I believe he just got the smaller boxed ones back in stock


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## lukasfab (24/9/14)

thanks gents!

anyone have the pdf wiring diag? not downloading from site


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## crozdog (1/10/14)

lukasfab said:


> thanks gents!
> 
> anyone have the pdf wiring diag? not downloading from site


no problem. View attachment sd controller kit instructions.pdf


simply followed the link...
http://www.stilldragon.org/discussion/271/diy-controller-kit-build-instructions


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## Dae Tripper (1/10/14)

I might be ruining everyone's fun here but why wouldn't you use the controls from a cooktop or oven. These use 0V switching are cheap and won't need a heatsink. Just my 2c


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## Maheel (1/10/14)

Dae Tripper said:


> I might be ruining everyone's fun here but why wouldn't you use the controls from a cooktop or oven. These use 0V switching are cheap and won't need a heatsink. Just my 2c


 because they are a thermostat style switch and dont offer any real control

they just turn on and off at a certain temp (cycling)

voltage control allows you to increase the "power" to the element (and heat output) but not turn it off and on (cycling)
this makes it more like GAS fire control to increase or decrease heat output


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## Dae Tripper (2/10/14)

Well that makes sense, you are after precise control.


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## booargy (3/10/14)

P=(VxV)/R
the resistance of the element is constant as is the surface area of the element. If you reduce the voltage the power also reduces but the surface area stays the same. therefore the heat density on the elements surface reduces.
PID controllers use a duty cycle say 10 sec at 50% the element is on for 5sec and off for 5sec. A PID controller could be used to drive a motorised pot connected to a SSVR.


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## DigitalGiraffe (4/3/16)

Dragging up an old thread here sorry.

I'm looking to put something similar to this together (my sparky will) for when I install my 3600w element.

After browsing the mighty eBay for parts I've noticed a whole bunch of differently rated solid state relays and potentiometers. Can anyone advise on what specs should I be looking for?

Would this be suitable? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Resistor-Type-Soild-State-Relay-SSR-25VA-25A-24-380V-AC-Heat-Sink-/331734629556?hash=item4d3cecbcb4:g:RygAAOSwXshWsyT8

Cheers!


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## fraser_john (4/3/16)

DigitalGiraffe said:


> Dragging up an old thread here sorry.
> 
> I'm looking to put something similar to this together (my sparky will) for when I install my 3600w element.
> 
> ...


I use two of these one for Keg King pump control and another for kettle element control.


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## barls (4/3/16)

how well does it work on the pump


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## takai (4/3/16)

I use one of these for voltage control: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VolTage-Resistance-Regulator-Solid-State-Relay-SSR-40A-24-380V-AC-w-Heat-SInk-SY-/252308117274?hash=item3abebc571a:g:sn8AAOSwZQxW2K6u

The increased headroom with 40A helps.


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## Cortez The Killer (4/3/16)

I've got the 10000w model on my 15amp element wired into the 15amp circuit in the spark-o-matic 3000 along with a 15amp ammeter

Seems to work well

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10000W-AC-220V-SCR-Voltage-Regulator-Motor-Speed-Controller-Dimmer-Thermostat-/400800508138?

Cheers

Edit: The heat sink is for a SSR on the HERMS circuit


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## takai (4/3/16)

Cortez The Killer said:


> I've got the 10000w model on my 15amp element wired into the 15amp circuit in the spark-o-matic 3000 along with a 15amp ammeter
> 
> Seems to work well
> 
> ...


Would be worried if you were kissing that.


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## hairydog (4/3/16)

I am about to put together a Temp controller because i am lucky enough to acquire a PID controller from work

with a Pt-100 RTD input (temp probe) and a 4-20ma output.I purchased a SSR off ebay-rated at 40amp output a bit of

overkill i know but it will run cooler and handle load easy,Input is 4-20ma, comes from China in a month.This gives me the opportunity

to reduce any offset around set point.SSR was $20.


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## Cortez The Killer (4/3/16)

takai said:


> Would be worried if you were kissing that.


?


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## Camo6 (5/3/16)

Cortez The Killer said:


> ?


Danger! Danger! High Voltage...


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## Cortez The Killer (5/3/16)

Fire in the disco...


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## Mardoo (5/3/16)

https://youtu.be/bl6z03A5zRs


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## takai (5/3/16)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-FxmoVM7X4


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## Adr_0 (5/3/16)

The solid state voltage regulators shown have 240V on the potentiometer - so make absolutely sure this is grounded correctly. And don't connect one of these to your PID. 

SSRs with digital or proportional voltage control have the 240V isolated from the control side, while resistance control has 240V on both sides.


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