# Move To All Grain For Thirty Bucks



## Nick JD

Mod edit: here is the pdf link with photos. I did this on a tablet, if the link isn't hot, I'll edit on a pc when I can: 

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=37683

Recently, I showed a friend how I do All Grain brewing and he was astounded at how simple and inexpensive it was. 

So I thought I'd put it online for those who want to have a go, but are reluctant to buy the gear. It's a good way to see if AG works for you because you have most of the gear already. 

If you have a big stock pot you'll only need to buy a meter or two of Swiss Voile and a candy thermometer. Geared up.

This is a real AG brew - of only 9 liters, which is great for those starting out, because it means a higher turnover; things are learned quicker, and you don't get stuck with large amounts of "practice beer"...

I've made this 9L (a carton; 24 stubbies; 12 tallies) for about $6. My goal here is to not use any "brewing words". 

Let's get into it.

I've got 2kg of Aussie ale malt and whacked it through the coffee grinder. It takes about ten minutes to process (I take it to a fine flour because I'm brewing in a bag). You can buy this grain for $60 for 25kg. That's $2.20 a kg. 







And here's 100g of carapils, 50g of carared and 20g of carafa 3 ... the carapils gives foam, the carared maltiness and the carafa colour and a nuttiness.






So we'd better put some water on the stove. Here's about 10 liters in a 15L pot of hot tap water being brough up to temp.


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## Nick JD

So while that's coming up to temp (aiming for just over 70C) lets get the hops sorted. Here's 10g of Simcoe, a good hop for bittering. 






And about 7g of Riwaka (or D Saaz) for some flavour - we'll add this later in the boil.


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## Nick JD

After about ten minutes when we check the temp of the water it's about here:






Which is bang on. Because the grain is cool (25C) it lowers the temperature of the water a bit - so if we want the mash to be about 67C, then we need slightly over 70C water.

So we throw in the voile square. *Turn off* the stove's element here. 






And bang in the grain.


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## Nick JD

At this stage it's good to get your potato masher and actually "mash". All the grain is lumpy and crunching it into the bottom breaks up these lumps pretty damn quick. Don't spend more than a minute or two doing this. Then whack the lid on.






And dig up three towels - the bigger the better. Fold them in half and drape them over the pot.






Pour yourself a beer. Congrats - you just mashed.






BTW - beer above has 30% rice. Damn fine - hints of creamed rice in the malt profile. Props to BribieG. Rice is nice.


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## tourist

You forgot to boil and ferment.


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## Nick JD

Now we have an hour of smoko. A good time to write the recipe down so if it's good - we can make it again.






Note the chronometer, the time the grain went in is important. We need to let it stew for an hour.

Fast Forward >> 

We take the towels off and KABOOM, a wonderful aroma hits. Check the temperature.






Not bad. Wen't in at about 66C came out at about 63C. That'll do us just fine.

So we arap a bit of twine around the cloth and string 'er up.


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## MarkBastard

Don't forget to tell them to turn the burner off before putting the swill voile square on.


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## Nick JD

tourist said:


> You forgot to boil and ferment.



You forgot to be patient.


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## Nick JD

Mark^Bastard said:


> Don't forget to tell them to turn the burner off before putting the swill voile square on.



Thanks, ya bastard.  

Turn off the element before you put the mash on. A constant temperature is key.


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## MarkBastard

Nick JD said:


> Thanks, ya bastard.
> 
> Turn off the element before you put the mash on. A constant temperature is key.



Mate I'd edit that back into your post about mashing, if they're using gas they'll be a bit disappointed when the voile catches on fire hahaha.

Good guide so far mate.


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## Nick JD

Then we dump the bag of grain into a green bucket. You can use a blue one, but I strongly recommend a green one.






And like Einstein and his relativity kerfuffle ... stuff gets bent by mass. This bending makes the sweeet, sweet beer-juice fall into the greeen bucket.


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## Nick JD

Give it a squeeze. Go on. You want to. 

Now your hands are mildly burnt, put on some washing-up gloves and squeeze like you are milking Daisy with your best farmer's wife dress on. Shit goes everywhere - be careful.

Then pour a liter of 70 degree water into the bucket and dunk the bag. Then let it drain.


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## fergi

Nick can ya post a bit quicker, stop drinking beer in between posting, i am really enjoying this article, well done mate
fergi


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## Nick JD

Now we can put the squeezings back into the pot and we're back to when we started, except the water is chocka full of delicious barley sugaz. 






So let's see what we have here. I got 1.032 @ 60C. According to this that's 1048 - which is just about marvelous.

So let's fire up the element to eleven. And put the lid on - you may think it'll boil over, but it won't because the electric element is gutless. But, watch it anyway until you know your stove.


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## Nick JD

fergi said:


> Nick can ya post a bit quicker, stop drinking beer in between posting, i am really enjoying this article, well done mate
> fergi



Geez, Fergs .. I'm in sixth gear down conrod straight here!


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## Nick JD

After about twenty minutes we have what I like to call "Rotorua".






Time to do two things: scrape off that brown crap and add those simcoe hops we saw earlier.


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## MarkBastard

How do you scrape off hot break nick?


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## Nick JD

Here's where I keep my heat-o-meter at. Yours might well be different. I'm using the bigger element on the electric stove.






That's a rolling boil. 

Time for a taste. HELL YEAH. Bitter enough after 42 minutes (you get to know bitterness if you taste when boiling, that you can remove the hops when you think it's there even if you've added too much).

So I added my D Saaz flavour hops.






For 15 minutes. Tastes wonderful.


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## Nick JD

Mark^Bastard said:


> How do you scrape off hot break nick?



A big ol' spoon.


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## tourist




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## Nick JD

Then I whack on a layer of gladwrap.







Cover the intake (the cooling pot will suck in) with a paper towel.






And sit it on the concrete in the garage so it's heat gets drawn out. By tomorrow morning it'll be ambient (20C) and ready to be poured into a fermenter with some yeast. 

I'll continue on then. 

To conclude this part: we've made a carton of beer for $6 and it's taken a sum total of about 1 hour (watching and doing) and 2 hours watching recorded MotoGP (go Stoner).


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## Bribie G

Great work so far. Tell me about the coffee grinder, how long did it take you to whizz that quantity? Reason I ask is that the vast majority of brewers who buy monster mills or Margas etc are 3V brewers and need close control over the crack, but as you point out for BIAB we can go as fine as we like with the crush. I wonder if it could handle say 4K in a reasonable time, or maybe use a couple of grinders in parallel.

:icon_cheers:

Edit: sorry should have read the OP more closely. 10 minutes. = 20 for a 4k batch. 

Now you've got me thinking.


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## kook

Why not just chuck the pot in a sink with some cold water? Should cool it down pretty quickly if you change the water a couple times?


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## Nick JD

BribieG said:


> Now you've got me thinking.



I slip into grinding mode when I've got the grinder going - my technique is to use the lid as a scoop and scoop up about 3/4 full, pour it in and then pulse for about 7 seconds. By then it's flour.

Pretty quick considering. No good at all if you want it cracked - grinders make dust. BIAB and dust are like beer and pizza.


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## Nick JD

kook said:


> Why not just chuck the pot in a sink with some cold water? Should cool it down pretty quickly if you change the water a couple times?



Could do, for sure. But I'm a lazy bugger. And I've never had an infection or a DMS issue (disclaimer: I don't do lagers this way), so I'd rather just do a two part with me doing ZZZZZZZ in between.

EDIT: I did say I wasn't going to use "brewing words", so I'd better explain the "DMS" thing: A stinky stuff like boiling cabbage is made when you mash, and it's got rid of by boiling. It's made while you cool though, and if you cool slowly it can be a problem. I haven't tasted or smelled it in my beer - so I just don't care. This process works for ales.


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## MarkBastard

I cool my pot in the sink with running water, I just adjust it so that water in = water out. It's pretty hard to get it to drop below 40 degrees or so though.

That said if you used ice in some way that could work.

I'm also intrigued with the coffee grinder option.


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## Tony

Great article Nick.

Its good to see!

I started with a blue plastic bucket with lots of holes drilled in it. It was horible. Pictures like yours will encourage more people by them seeing just how easy it can be.

I used to boil in a pot and put it in the laundry sink full of cold water. replace the water as it warms up a couple of times the bre brew will be ready to pitch within and hour or so.

cheers


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## Mantis

Tony said:


> Great article Nick.
> 
> Its good to see!
> 
> I started with a blue plastic bucket with lots of holes drilled in it. It was horible. Pictures like yours will encourage more people by them seeing just how easy it can be.
> 
> I used to boil in a pot and put it in the laundry sink full of cold water. replace the water as it warms up a couple of times the bre brew will be ready to pitch within and hour or so.
> 
> cheers



And now you have a brew rig with more taps than a plumbing shop, ahhhh progress

Bags rule h34r:


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## andrewl

+1 for chucking it in the laundry tub... and I also have a whole heap of ice bricks they use to cart blood/body parts (heaps better than normal ice bricks!!!!)


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## joecast

Nick JD said:


> Then we dump the bag of grain into a green bucket. You can use a blue one, but I strongly recommend a green one.


damn! ive got blue and red  no wonder my beer turns out shit.

nice job nick!


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## Mantis

Yeah, great job. And the no chill in the pot is so easy. :icon_chickcheers:


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## Tony

Mantis said:


> Bags rule h34r:



Will have to compare wort clarity to the kettle with ya one day 

HERMS rule! :icon_cheers:


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## Mantis

Tony said:


> Will have to compare wort clarity to the kettle with ya one day
> 
> HERMS rule! :icon_cheers:



By the time it gets to the kettle, oh, its already there , sorry.

Anyway by then my glasses are all foggy and clarity isnt an issue


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## komodo

Great guide. Im gunna send this link to a mate to check out who i've been encouraging to give BIAB a go


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## fergi

well this has been one of the best articles i have read on AHB without a doubt, it is a pleasant change to actually see someone that has actually got back to grass roots beer making, i love all the high tech gear a lot of the guys have but i am going to try this because this is what homebrewing should be, cheap and easy .with hopefully good results. well done and thanks for your time and effort here nick.
fergi


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## fitnessfan

Thanks heaps Nick, as a novice brewer still playing with kits i found your guide invaluable. Good on ya!


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## rackemup

Any chance of seeing a pic of the finished beer?


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## O'Henry

Last brew I also used the laundry sink to cool and had a load of washing on as well. I used the spin off water to cool it and just lifted the lid when it was enough water, drained when warm then re added water. Needed hardly any from the tap.


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## manticle

Don't always agree with everything you say but I do relate to your DIY spirit and tendency to experiment and think laterally.

Nice work.


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## Bribie G

Tony said:


> Will have to compare wort clarity to the kettle with ya one day
> 
> HERMS rule! :icon_cheers:



Same as HERMS wort clarity to the fermenter, crystal clear.


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## marlow_coates

Nice work on this Nick.

May deserve a spot in the articles section, or as an add on to the BIAB article?

The pictures are great.

Also, has me keen to possibly do some smaller brews to increase the experimentation rate.

Keep it up.

Marlow


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## argon

Excellent guide there Nick... this one's going out to all the mates still stuck on kits... the simplicity is the key. Only tell em what they need to know... if they want more they'll find out more on their own


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## riverside

Thanks for taking the time to show the simplicity to start out in AG, and for the pics  

That will get some people off kits (Me for starters) :icon_cheers: 

Cheers

Darren


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## Nick JD

[quote name='Rack'EmUp' post='543638' date='Oct 27 2009, 10:03 PM']Any chance of seeing a pic of the finished beer?[/quote]

In about three or four weeks.


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## Nick JD

Here's a photo I forgot. For me, it's one of the best parts of the brewing process for a couple of reasons: it's really nice to taste the stuff, and secondly (more importantly) you get to associate grains and hops with tastes, within a timeframe that is rememberable. 

Like most I write stuff down ... like, "Whoa, I think I over-did it with the galaxy hops!" and then on tasting the final beer I write, "Was wrong about the galaxy - it worked." Then next time around I know that 15g of galaxy at 30 minutes won't wreck the beer, but from previous brews, 40g of CZ Saaz for 60 minutes is YUK. 

These small AGs of just a carton of beer is like walking into the bottlo and there's a walk-in fridge a mile and a half long, and every box is different.

If I may be so brash, I think that all grain brewing - although being more time consuming - is inherently a more enjoyable process due to the smells and tastes along the way.


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## crozdog

Mark^Bastard said:


> How do you scrape off hot break nick?



MB, its protein scum not hot break. Nick, it doesn't need to be removed, but you can if you want to. I never bother. it'll incorporate back into the boil - especially when you add the hops. 

Great article. like others have said, I'll be sending it to some kit brewers! Well done.


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## adam77

Great job. Well done on sharing with all of us. 

I will give this a guy when I finish off my last kit. Didn't realise it would be a simple of this.


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## bonj

Good onya Nick! :super:

Articles like this one are great for beginner all grainers. You really show how simple the process is.


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## Cortez The Killer

Great article

When complete it'd be good to add it to the wiki and even dump it into PDF for distribution to kit brewers

Cheers


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## railgun_livewire

Killer article Nick, 
just wondering about your hydrometer though...

I noticed it sitting in your wort, at what must be at least 70deg.
From what I understand, my hydrometer is calibrated at 20deg.

Is yours different? 

Also, you may want to mention avoiding boiling it as I'm pretty sure it will die (and spoil innocent wort).


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## slacka

My 1st brew was pretty much the same as this except I hung my pillow slip from the range hood letting it drain into my 15L pot whilst it boiled. Once done it was tipped directly into the fermenter sterilising it in the process.


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## Cortez The Killer

railgun_livewire said:


> just wondering about your hydrometer though...
> 
> I noticed it sitting in your wort, at what must be at least 70deg.
> From what I understand, my hydrometer is calibrated at 20deg.
> 
> Is yours different?


Nick used an online calculator which uses a formula to take into account the temperature difference - most brewing software packages also have this calculator

Cheers


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## lespaul

ok so at the end if i ferment in a 30lt fermenter, is it still the same process? will there be enough co2 to push out the oxygen? 
alswo, insted of a grinder i can use a blender and pulse?
awesome article...this weekend is planned!


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## usastman

I am on the slope to BIAB - great article.

I noticed the comments on having a finer grain in BIAB - Are there dangers in using normally cracked grain - E.g - not extract enough sugars??


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## QldKev

usastman said:


> I am on the slope to BIAB - great article.
> 
> I noticed the comments on having a finer grain in BIAB - Are there dangers in using normally cracked grain - E.g - not extract enough sugars??



Nope no real issues, as long as the grain is cracked correctly. If it was undercracked both BIAG and 3V would both suffer.


QldKev


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## railgun_livewire

usastman said:


> I am on the slope to BIAB - great article.
> 
> Are there dangers in using normally cracked grain??



I would say that "normally cracked grain" is 'normal' because it's the usual method (i.e. standard procedure and not presenting problems).

There are a few opinions on the matter.
Too fine can = too much sediment, clogging of apparatus and potentiall risk destroying the enzymes needed.
Too coarse can = not enough surface area on the grain to extrude sugars.

I guess it's a matter of personal opinion and set-up.
Most AG set-ups will become clogged if the grain is milled to fine (esp when sparging). However, this problem is avoided with BIAB - so provided that your bag is made out of a material fine enough to hold the finely milled grain, you'll be fine.

I would suggest that most bags sold are designed for "normally cracked grain" and won't tolerate finer grades.

:icon_cheers:


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## CDJ

Great article Nick!

Will give it a go as soon as I get some Voile! Would you still do bigger volumes (i.e. standard 23 L) on your kitchen stove? or is that pushing it too much?

Cheers


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## Nick JD

lespaul said:


> ok so at the end if i ferment in a 30lt fermenter, is it still the same process? will there be enough co2 to push out the oxygen?
> alswo, insted of a grinder i can use a blender and pulse?
> awesome article...this weekend is planned!



Any size fermenter will do as long as it's got a bit of headspace. 

I think you can use a blender - I would do small amounts (a cup) at a time and use one capable of crushing ice.


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## Nick JD

CDJ said:


> Would you still do bigger volumes (i.e. standard 23 L) on your kitchen stove? or is that pushing it too much?



I've done a "high gravity" mash in that very pot with 4kg of grain. It's not for the faint hearted, as there's about 1cm of pot rim between mashing and a titanic mess. And the efficiency ain't crash hot at that water:grain ratio. 

Get a 20L pot and it's doable for 5% beers (16L of 1.065 would do it). Dilute in the fermenter.


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## brenjak

Grat guide Nick, a picture is worth a thousand words. You can read all you want but seeing is believing!


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## Nick JD

Here's the yeast being used. Safale American Ale yeast, aka US05. I also use a lot of the much maligned "blue" packet which is an English Ale I think. They're both okay. 

I pour a teaspoon into a schooner and add a teaspoon of sugar. Wrap the rest up and fridge it in a ziplock bag.







Top up with 100ml of cold tap water and stir vigorously; cover in gladwrap. Within an hour it's gone all capaccino and if you put your ear to it it's fizzing like rice bubbles and milk. The gladwrap is there to stop bugs getting in and the foamy head getting out (which it's been known to do, like magma). I usually give it an hour or two.






Then I pour 2L of boiling water into the blue fermenter. You can also use green fermenters, but I strongly advise the use of blue. I leave it on each side for a minute or two and then shake the crap out of it so a steam jet fires out the bung hole. Watch ya fingers ... that jet will remove skin in a second. I'm very happy about including the words _bung_, and _hole _into this thread - even in the same sentence.


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## Dazza88

I just tried my first partial mash a few weeks ago. I think i used the exact same pot (Kmart), candy thermometer, bag material and stove top. 

Great post.


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## joshuahardie

Hmm
Coffee Grinder eh.

Never thought it would have the guts to chew through a full batch of grain.

I might have to give it a go.


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## Nick JD

Now the fermenter has had any bugs cooked like Chinese dumplings we can add the brown stuff. 

I use a funnel because this fermenter isn't really a fermenter. Some people say to splash it around for oxygen - I don't, you can.






It's a matter of pouring much like you'd pour a homebrew in a bottle: slow and steady so as not to disturb the crud on the bottom. 

This is how much crud I leave out. You can pour it in, I don't.






In with the cup 'o yeast and on with the airlock. This one's gonna sit at around 20-22C - should be done in about 5 days.






Thanks for all the positive comments. Happy homebrewing :beer: :chug:


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## Nick JD

joshuahardie said:


> Hmm
> Coffee Grinder eh.
> 
> Never thought it would have the guts to chew through a full batch of grain.
> 
> I might have to give it a go.



Watch the air intake grill for cooling the motor doesn't get clogged with barley dust. It's a bit of a workout for the wee beastie, but my $20 has ground about 5kg of coffee and close to 50kg of malts ... still going strong. You'll freak out at how in 3 seconds a cup of grain is dust.


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## MarkBastard

Guys just another tip.

You can do pretty much exactly the same as above BUT once you've turned the stove off you dump a 1.5L can of liquid malt extract, or I think 1.2kg of dried liquid malt extract into your pot and make sure it disolves.

Then when you pour it into your fermenter you can top up with water to your usual 20 odd litres like you're used to with kits.

You may need slightly more hops if doing it this way (but NOT double the amount of hops).

This is called a partial mash, meaning part of your batch is all grain mash and part is liquid malt extract.


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## Nick JD

Mark^Bastard said:


> Guys just another tip.
> 
> You can do pretty much exactly the same as above BUT once you've turned the stove off you dump a 1.5L can of liquid malt extract, or I think 1.2kg of dried liquid malt extract into your pot and make sure it disolves.
> 
> Then when you pour it into your fermenter you can top up with water to your usual 20 odd litres like you're used to with kits.
> 
> You may need slightly more hops if doing it this way (but NOT double the amount of hops).
> 
> This is called a partial mash, meaning part of your batch is all grain mash and part is liquid malt extract.



For sure.

As a rough guide for my beers I do 1g of bittering hops for 1 liter of beer. So if you're doning a 20L partial ... use 20g of bittering hops instead of 10g. Hell, use 50g if you want - but less than 1g per liter can be a bit sweet with an all-malt beer.


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## MarkBastard

But also Nick hop utilisation changes depending on the gravity of the wort you're boiling in.

Not sure what the exact ratio is but 10g of bittering hops in 10L of beer with a 10L boil may mean something more like 15g of bittering hops in 20L of beer with a 10L boil.

Of course this is all rough as different hops have different ratings and I don't know the exact formula etc.

I guess this may be a bit over the technical level of the intended audience though.


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## Nick JD

Mark^Bastard said:


> But also Nick hop utilisation changes depending on the gravity of the wort you're boiling in.
> 
> Not sure what the exact ratio is but 10g of bittering hops in 10L of beer with a 10L boil may mean something more like 15g of bittering hops in 20L of beer with a 10L boil.
> 
> Of course this is all rough as different hops have different ratings and I don't know the exact formula etc.
> 
> I guess this may be a bit over the technical level of the intended audience though.



True. If you are going to add more malt, add it after you've boiled your hops.


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## tdh

Hi Nick JD. You're tips are a bit 'loose'. 

A gram per litre can have wildly different results if you're using 7% Cluster or 17% Zeus!!!

tdh


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## MarkBastard

tdh said:


> Hi Nick JD. You're tips are a bit 'loose'.
> 
> A gram per litre can have wildly different results if you're using 7% Cluster or 17% Zeus!!!
> 
> tdh



The point is for this to be loose. It's designed to be about real trial and error so the new AG brewer can get a true appreciation of cause and affect, and not completely inundated with acronyms and terms that create a massive barrier to entry.

Because the process is easy and the batches are small they can say "hmm I'll add more hops next time I reckon". Also because they're half batches you could make a really bitter brew and then correct it by next time making a quite weak brew and then combining them together in a jug or keg.

Personally I like this fresh approach.


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## tdh

And strike a light, what a shabby way to rehydrate yeast!!!

A teaspoon of yeast and a teaspoon of sugar. Phaaaaark me...

tdh


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## Nick JD

tdh said:


> Phaaaaark me...



Someone needs to. You're stressed.

I've found little difference between rehydrating the yeast and then proofing it with some sugar. 1 teaspoon in half a schooner is not enough to disturb the passage of water across the rehydrating yeast cell.

But you probably knew that, because you are an expert.


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## tdh

Nope, not stressed. Just laughable what is regarded as acceptable brewing techniques.
The AHB is a font of knowledge but still daggy techniques keep spewing forth and are rewarded and applauded.

tdh


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## CDJ

Mark^Bastard said:


> Guys just another tip.
> 
> You can do pretty much exactly the same as above BUT once you've turned the stove off you dump a 1.5L can of liquid malt extract, or I think 1.2kg of dried liquid malt extract into your pot and make sure it disolves.
> 
> Then when you pour it into your fermenter you can top up with water to your usual 20 odd litres like you're used to with kits.
> 
> You may need slightly more hops if doing it this way (but NOT double the amount of hops).
> 
> This is called a partial mash, meaning part of your batch is all grain mash and part is liquid malt extract.



Hey Mark, great tip.

Is there any way to estimate beforehand how much LME or DME would be needed to achieve specific OGs? Is there any formula or linky that would be useful for this?

Cheers


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## Nick JD

tdh said:


> Nope, not stressed. Just laughable what is regarded as acceptable brewing techniques.
> The AHB is a font of knowledge but still daggy techniques keep spewing forth and are rewarded and applauded.
> 
> tdh






John Palmer said:


> *Re-hydrating Dry Yeast*
> 1. Put 1 cup of warm (95-105F, 35-40C) boiled water into a sanitized jar and stir in the yeast. Cover with Saran Wrap and wait 15 minutes.
> 2. "Proof" the yeast by adding one teaspoon of extract or sugar that has been boiled in a small amount of water. Allow the sugar solution to cool before adding it to the jar.
> 3. Cover and place in a warm area out of direct sunlight.
> 4. After 30 minutes or so the yeast should be visibly churning and/or foaming, and is ready to pitch.



Edit: Palmer's Image of proofed rehydrated yeast from his website.


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## manticle

CDJ said:


> Hey Mark, great tip.
> 
> Is there any way to estimate beforehand how much LME or DME would be needed to achieve specific OGs? Is there any formula or linky that would be useful for this?
> 
> Cheers



Basically 100g DME: 1 L water =~1040


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## Steve

Nick JD said:


> But you probably knew that, because you are an expert.



Actually tdh did brew thousands of litres at a time for a commercial enterprise.

Great posts and pics Nick. Its threads like these that get people brewing better beer. I was the same when I started brewing AG, I used a step by step guide from the net. Thanks for the time you put into it.
Cheers
Steve

P.S. I prefer red buckets


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## rackemup

Nick JD said:


> In about three or four weeks.




Ok, cheers and +1 on what everyone else has said - great thread :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD

Steve said:


> Actually tdh did brew thousands of litres at a time for a commercial enterprise.



Is this you, tdh?


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## Steve

Nick JD said:


> Is this you, tdh?



:lol: yep, the red leg warmers give him away


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## Sammus

lol funny stuff. I followed palmer and rehydrated/proofed yeast using sugar for yonks. Then I was told that quality and viability of modern dried yeast its a bit of waste of effort proofing it, so I started just hydrating it. Then after a while I got lazy and started just chucking the dry stuff straight in.

Can honestly say I haven't noticed a difference between any method, I wouldn't bother rehydrating etc, especially in a newb guide.

That said, if you want to proof it, I agree that theres nothing wrong with using suc/dextrose.


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## Sammus

Nick JD said:


> ..... I leave it on each side for a minute or two and then shake the crap out of it so a steam jet fires out the bung hole. Watch ya fingers ... that jet will remove skin in a second. I'm very happy about including the words _bung_, and _hole _into this thread - even in the same sentence.



Not only in the same sentence, right next to each other too!


----------



## Sammus

joshuahardie said:


> Hmm
> Coffee Grinder eh.
> 
> Never thought it would have the guts to chew through a full batch of grain.
> 
> I might have to give it a go.



coffee grinder in this case is a little whirly bird herb/spice chopper (at least I inferred from an earlier post). A proper grinder would proably take a lot longer, but give you much more uniform particle size and adjustability, not that it matters for this application


----------



## Screwtop

tdh said:


> Nope, not stressed. Just laughable what is regarded as acceptable brewing techniques.
> The AHB is a font of knowledge but still daggy techniques keep spewing forth and are rewarded and applauded.
> 
> tdh




Getting to you too tdh :angry: 

Screwy


----------



## fergi

yep nick i have done the yeast bit heaps of times like that, no difference from what i have tasted, isnt it the truth though, theres more than one way to do most things correctly, but i do listen to what TDH says as his info is one of a few guys on here that i trust with their knowledge but the yeast thingy works .
fergi


----------



## Nick JD

One of the main reasons I proof is because I want to see and hear activity. In the past I've just rehydrated and the yeast has swelled - and from what I've found, _*rehydrating dead yeast won't make beer*_.

A little sugar and you can get a pretty decent idea of the yeast's viability and fecundity. I've opened another packet before because it just wasn't foaming up quickly and strongly as I like.

If you want to know, absolutely, that your yeast is alive and eating ... feed it before you chuck it in. 

Or don't. Your call. B)


----------



## MarkBastard

CDJ said:


> Is there any way to estimate beforehand how much LME or DME would be needed to achieve specific OGs? Is there any formula or linky that would be useful for this?



Best thing to do is use some brewing software like beersmith or that excel spreadsheet someone made around here.

But that said because I use liquid malt extract I design my brews around me adding 1.5L of LME every time, and if I want to adjust the OG of the brew I use less or more grain in the actual mash. That's because using anything other than a whole tin of LME would be a messy pain in the butt. I suppose if you were using dry extract that wouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't mind buying a massive amount of dry extract for that reason, I guess you could use it to compensate if you're not hitting the right efficiency etc.


----------



## Nick JD

Screwtop said:


> Getting to you too tdh :angry:
> 
> Screwy



You guys would just burst into flames if a beer made this way won a competition, wouldn't ya? :beerbang: I do enjoy a challenge ... hmmmmm.


----------



## Tony

Sammus said:


> lol funny stuff. I followed palmer and rehydrated/proofed yeast using sugar for yonks. Then I was told that quality and viability of modern dried yeast its a bit of waste of effort proofing it, so I started just hydrating it. Then after a while I got lazy and started just chucking the dry stuff straight in.
> 
> Can honestly say I haven't noticed a difference between any method, I wouldn't bother rehydrating etc, especially in a newb guide.



Me too. Started proofing it with a touch of dex in a bowl of warm water. Moved to just re-hydrating.

Now i just sprinkle the dry yeast in the fermenter and rack from the kettle strait onto it.

No difference noticed.

If its a 2 year old pack of yeast.......... i chuck it and get a fresh one rather than proof iit. Its not that expensive 

Nothing wrong with hrdrating it....... i personly cant see the point anymore since i stopped.

cheers


----------



## King Brown

Great thread, simple instructions and very easy to follow for beginners, and makes the process sound as easy and undaunting as it really can be.



tdh said:


> Hi Nick JD. You're tips are a bit 'loose'.
> 
> A gram per litre can have wildly different results if you're using 7% Cluster or 17% Zeus!!!
> 
> tdh






tdh said:


> Nope, not stressed. Just laughable what is regarded as acceptable brewing techniques.
> The AHB is a font of knowledge but still daggy techniques keep spewing forth and are rewarded and applauded.
> 
> tdh



I can see what your saying, but although the advice on yeast goes against what ive read, this is the beginners section of the forum, so advice should be simple and not have to be overly technical. For example the first recipe in Randy Moshers "radical brewing" gives hop type and amount, as well as crystal malt colour and amount ranges, rather than strictly defining what should be used. He then goes to describe what ranges will give what flavours, ibu, srm and og's but leaves the actual amounts up to the person brewing the recipe. This, as the OT stated gives the beginner brewer flexability to make fine tune his or her beers to taste. At the end of the day as long as the brewer has drinkable beer, it doesnt matter, and if they dont, they can research further to refine their techniques. If they want to learn about making starters and liquid yeasts, they can go to that part of the forum and read up on that.

I guess what im trying to say is RDWHAHB :icon_cheers:


----------



## markarena

QUOTE (John Palmer)*Re-hydrating Dry Yeast*
1. Put 1 cup of warm (95-105F, 35-40C) boiled water into a sanitized jar and stir in the yeast. Cover with Saran Wrap and wait 15 minutes. 
2. "Proof" the yeast by adding one teaspoon of extract or sugar that has been boiled in a small amount of water. Allow the sugar solution to cool before adding it to the jar.
3. Cover and place in a warm area out of direct sunlight.
4. After 30 minutes or so the yeast should be visibly churning and/or foaming, and is ready to pitch. 



Nick JD said:


> Edit: Palmer's Image of proofed rehydrated yeast from his website.



Great work on the thread! Looks like a good way to start all grain.

Just so you know, in the edition of How To Brew that I own (not in front of me now), John now states that he doesn't recommend that you proof with sugar, as the yeast manufacturers have already taken care of what the yeast needs straight out of the pack. So basically what you quoted, minus the sugar. Makes your process one step lighter!


----------



## Bribie G

I get US-05 from my brew Club for about $3.50 and don't bother culturing it up or stretching it out over several brews/generations. At that price I use a freshie most times and sprinkle. If I'm doing a similar beer as my very next brew I will culture up a litre bottle with some LDME and use that within 24 hours to save the three bucks but that's only occasionally.

Great all round yeast for fake lagers and APAs etc. 

Would you be able to post a piccie of your grinder, the brand and how much it was worth?


----------



## Nick JD

BribieG said:


> I get US-05 from my brew Club for about $3.50 and don't bother culturing it up or stretching it out over several brews/generations. At that price I use a freshie most times and sprinkle. If I'm doing a similar beer as my very next brew I will culture up a litre bottle with some LDME and use that within 24 hours to save the three bucks but that's only occasionally.
> 
> Great all round yeast for fake lagers and APAs etc.
> 
> Would you be able to post a piccie of your grinder, the brand and how much it was worth?



I'm stingy with yeast - so much so that I have done a record (for me) six brews (12L) on the same trub. At that point I ran out of bottles. 

Last month I got some S04 from my LHBS. I got home and looked at the date: 2007, wait ... early 2007. Last thing I've bought from that asshole. But I still used it. A bit of sugar showed it was actually very much viable still - must have spent the last three years in a fridge. 

The ammount of yeat packets in HBShops sitting behind the counter at 30C makes me very wary of trusting their ability on sprinkling ... especially when I think most bad brews are from that few days when there was no activity and the yeast were struggling to breed up. The LHBS around here are not big on good advice/practices - so much so that it's astounding to hear their advice. 

My grinder is a Sunbeam EM0400 - on that link it says $35, but I'm sure it was $20, maybe on special.


----------



## extra-cheese

Just like (almost) everyone else, I just want to say nice work on the guide.

cheers,
brad


----------



## mintsauce

+1 for being inspired to get going AG by this thread - grains on order enough to start on 3 batches - if all goes OK I'll bulk buy 

Great thread, got to say even for beginners in AG we all probably know a bit about yeast and have our favorite way to use it:
Personally I put 1 pack into 1 litre boiled/cooled water with 100g light dry malt extract added when boiling then split this to 6 stubbies and keep them in fridge, 2 days before a brew use I do another litre with 100g's, cool and add - when this is going full bang I chuck it into a full brew (23litres) - this makes my $5 yeast last a bit longer, gets brew's going real quick and confident - I've never had an issue this way but i'm sure people will tell me it's less than perfect.

Cheers,

(and wow, look - first time I've been inspired enough to post - normally I'm just a lurker)


----------



## DUANNE

the coffe grinder will handle the task easy.i put 4-5 g of cousin through mine every day for five or six years and its still going strong. id also have to say with the yeast i see tdhs point but hydrate , proof or sprinkle do what you want. if it wasnt for simple guides like this and pistol patches original basic biab guide how many poeple would still be brewing crappy kits or given up brewing because they couldnt brew what they want. if this guide gets 5 more brewers going all grain and sticking to brewing in the long run who cares about semantics of it? my 2c

bh


----------



## Sammus

BribieG said:


> I get US-05 from my brew Club for about $3.50 and don't bother culturing it up or stretching it out over several brews/generations. At that price I use a freshie most times and sprinkle. If I'm doing a similar beer as my very next brew I will culture up a litre bottle with some LDME and use that within 24 hours to save the three bucks but that's only occasionally.
> 
> Great all round yeast for fake lagers and APAs etc.
> 
> Would you be able to post a piccie of your grinder, the brand and how much it was worth?



also remember that nick is only doing tiny batches, a whole packet would be waayy overpitching. That part of proofing I understand, if you're taking a spoonful from an open packet it might pay to check it's ok.


----------



## Novacastrian

Thanks for this article mate, i am new to brewing and wanted something simple like this to start me off with AG.

Btw Hello Tony


----------



## MarkyMark

Can you do this 9L brew in the fermenter I normally use for a 23L brew?

Cheers

Mark


----------



## fergi

Nick JD said:


> After about twenty minutes we have what I like to call "Rotorua".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Time to do two things: scrape off that brown crap and add those simcoe hops we saw earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i am trying to get this all clear in my mind, what is the bag doing hanging over the side with the peg in it, did i miss something here or are they the simco hops.
> 
> fergi
> ps, went out this morning and bought a gas burner and large stainless pot, boils 10 litres cold water in 15 mins, hope thats enough.


----------



## marlow_coates

The bag is acting like a big Tea-Bag.

Allows the hops to be converted in the boiling water, and when done, they can be easily removed by taking the bag out.

If you don't want to make the bag, you can just chuck your hops straight in, and either strain out afterwards, or leave in there to eventually settle on the bottom of your fermenter with the rest of the trub.

Marlow


----------



## Nick JD

marlow_coates said:


> The bag is acting like a big Tea-Bag.



Yeah. The simcoe hops are in that bag. The bag is made of the same stuff as the BIABag.

My pot is 15L - I wouldn't want it to be any smaller.


----------



## Nick JD

MarkyMark said:


> Can you do this 9L brew in the fermenter I normally use for a 23L brew?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mark



Yes. But if you drink a fair bit, you're better off having a dedicated fermenter for little batches - or your production rates suffer! Also, 9L in a 23L fermenter looks sad.

But there are no ill effects. The space above the beer is filled with CO2 as soon as the yeast start lunch.


----------



## RdeVjun

Nick JD said:


> My grinder is a Sunbeam EM0400 - on that link it says $35, but I'm sure it was $20, maybe on special.


We've got a Rocket Blender and it has only just occurred to me recently that it would make a half- decent grain mill for small batches, so I gave it a spin. No problems, takes seconds and the crush is much better than I'd expected- very few whole grains remaining, less flour than I anticipated and plenty of fragments, so should work fine in a pillowcase. It is probably important to fill it to about half full for each batch, less and it will just turn to flour, more and it might have too many intact whole grains. One great thing about BIAB is that the crush is mostly insignificant, just so long as the grains are not whole.
I'm not sure if I'd put all of my grain through a blender though, I reckon the motors in this sort of domestic appliance would probably snuff it with constant/ extended use. And not only that, but spousie would probably cut my balls off if I burnt it out on 'that stupid beer stuff again...' :blink: . (Doesn't stop her guzzling it when she wants to though, dammit... :angry: )

Also Nick, congratulations and well done on the guide, it is well laid out with pictures of every step and quite easy to follow, we can see from the interest it has generated that has been badly needed. I have been working on a similar guide for a while, it is more text than photos, but as I snoozed, so I loosed... I'll post it in due course, maybe with some extras like a 23L batch with dilution, stepped- mashing, decoction, sparging, partigyle etc for some more advanced techniques, but still based around this simple stockpot/ BIAB kit.

Just on that, the cost and simplicity of just a stockpot, a BIAB bag and a thermometer to get into All- Grain/ All- Mashed are the keys here. Without wanting to stand on any 3-Vers toes here, with this method it shows that transition to AG can be just so simple and doesn't have to cost the earth. While if you do have a go and for some reason you don't like it, then you're not stuck with all this expensive and now largely- useless equipment, about the only thing that doesn't have an alternate use is the bag, but that is no big loss.
I've been BIABing just like this for about nine months now, I actually have much of the kit here (legal stainless firkins etc) to make up a 3-V brewstand but seeing as I'm getting excellent results with the BIAB method, I can't be bothered outfitting it all!
:beer:
Edit: Clarity...


----------



## Sammus

I use this grinder http://www.fivesensescoffee.com.au/shop/co...nt/mazzer-robur

I wish


----------



## Nick JD

RdeVjun said:


> I have been working on a similar guide for a while...



It'd be great if you could do a guide on your high gravity full size stove-top batches. A lot of the comments in this thread have been about scaling it to a "full-size" batch.

I really need a 20L pot...


----------



## Infinitee

I just want to second (third? tenth?!) the thanks and congrats on this guide.

Nice and claritous. Just like my beer isn't 

Great pictures and I agree with previous comments that the guts & balls of this tutorial would be useful if made into a .pdf for ready distribution.

:icon_cheers: 

Makes it seem so easy and you've inspired me to get grainy.

It's hard to find a decently priced 20L pot these days though.


----------



## argon

Infinitee said:


> It's hard to find a decently priced 20L pot these days though.



check out Big W... i think they're still selling 20L ss pots for $20... then you're on your way


----------



## RdeVjun

Nick JD said:


> It'd be great if you could do a guide on your high gravity full size stove-top batches. A lot of the comments in this thread have been about scaling it to a "full-size" batch.


Sure Nick, I may as well do something constructive with what I've got, so will adapt it as such. BjornJ has done a similar walk- though/ pictorial guide, I'll go through all the calcs in more detail though, maybe some more on sparging for those folks seeking peak performance from their BIAB worts.  



argon said:


> check out Big W... i think they're still selling 20L ss pots for $20... then you're on your way


Yep argon, they're usually available at big double ewe here at least, although I believe 19 litres is the nominal size. But, as I'm usually diluting, it makes very little difference what the actual pot size is, its the stuff that finds its way into the fermenter that really matters. Around the 20 litre mark works, that much I know! B)


----------



## Nick JD

RdeVjun said:


> Sure Nick, I may as well do something constructive with what I've got, so will adapt it as such. BjornJ has done a similar walk- though/ pictorial guide, I'll go through all the calcs in more detail though, maybe some more on sparging for those folks seeking peak performance from their BIAB worts.



Cool - I've inadvertantly copied Bjorn!  

I'm about to do another "Roasted BIAB Crust" re-addition (taking the BIAB sugaz and making crystal malt from them) ... and I believe that through doing this (and saving 12c!) that BIAB can literally have a gazillion percent efficiency. Within two brews though. All the remaining sugar in the bag ends up at the bottom if you leave it overnight - throw it back in your next brew ... no other method can beat that effiency. No sugaz survives to make it into the green ant holes in my back yard.

Is anyone else creating an insane green ant colony in their back yard with a grain dump? :unsure:


----------



## altone

lespaul said:


> ok so at the end if i ferment in a 30lt fermenter, is it still the same process? will there be enough co2 to push out the oxygen?
> alswo, insted of a grinder i can use a blender and pulse?
> awesome article...this weekend is planned!




I used to use a nut grinder on a bamix for small grain batches so a blender should do fine ...


----------



## wynnum1

Instead of on the stove could you make smaller batches in a deep fryer or slow cooker . I do not think our electric stove would handle the final boil.


----------



## RdeVjun

wynnum1 said:


> Instead of on the stove could you make smaller batches in a deep fryer or slow cooker . I do not think our electric stove would handle the final boil.


That's a fair enough question, wynnum1, I guess you can go as small as you have to, but I've found not everything scales down directly. For instance, recently I mashed just half a kilo of grain in a few litres of water in a stockpot (~10litres, so not the biggest) and the heat losses were frightening so I had to add more heat. That was for just a few litres of wort to make some slants, so it didn't really matter much. But what I'd do is mash in the vessel you're going to boil in and usually it will be almost full, particularly if you sparge it.
If you're really wanting to do full stockpot boils though, the camping stove may be the way to get your stockpot heated and then (carefully) transfer it to your electric stove, or else have a couple of pots bringing it up to the boil and then (again, very carefully) transferring it all into one. Getting the wort up to the boil in a reasonable timeframe is the hard part, maintaining it at the boil isn't anywhere near as demanding. Camping stoves use a fair bit of gas though, but it is not all that expensive. The larger chain stores (yep, big double ewe again!) often have a small single hob unit (nominal 9KW?) that comes in a plastic carry case plus a set of four gas canisters for around $20. It might make sense to just get one of those? It should do a couple of batches, and refills were less than $10 for a pack of four, about $7 from memory.


----------



## MarkBastard

I did a 12L strike water 1.5L sparge water mini BIAB partial on the stove the other night. On the two ring wok burner in a 19L Big W pot.

Will never do that again. Just was too hard to keep at a boil. Had to have the lid mostly on.

One thing it did give me an appreciation for though is how much I hate a crappy boil and how much I hate waiting for water to heat up! So when I get an urn I'll be going for the higher performance one for sure.


----------



## Nick JD

I must have some kinda super stove then! But it's just a normal one. 

It takes anout ten to fifteen minutes to get hot tap water up to strike temperature.

It takes about 20 minutes to get 11L from 60 degrees (roughly, inc sparge) to the boil. I leave the lid on for this part, and watch carefully for the last 5 minutes - you get to know by the rumbling when it's about to boil up and start churning. 

Then I turn the element down a touch so the boil isn't too violent. I've done a few of these with the pot lid on and it just simmering ... no DMS issues. 

I leave the lid off primarily to control my SG. If I get 11L of 1.055 I boil less violently. If I get 11L of 1.039, I boil the crap out of it.

Again, I'm doing ales here, and have done lid-on boils without any DMS issues.


----------



## RdeVjun

Mine must be a super stove too, similar performance to Nick's, only mine's gas. Sometimes with gas though, less is more, ie. the hottest and most productive part of the flame is with the tip just lapping the base, certainly not when it envelopes the pot in yellow flames with the valve/reg flat out as per we've seen some mongolians etc. It isn't easy on a stovetop though, maybe try a smaller ring Mark?

Or, maybe southern inland Qld is just the sweet spot? Nup, actually, I doubt it! :lol:


----------



## MarkBastard

Hmm never thought about that. I have the flame on highest, but to be honest with that side pot it still doesn't go anywhere near the sides of the pot.


----------



## James_B

Any advice on where/what plain aussie ale malt to get for the main 2kg's of malt? I can find all the specialty grains on the sponsors above but nothing approaching $60/25kg, no local brew stores with grain at all either ><.


----------



## MarkBastard

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=773

$4/kg,

$3.50/kg if you buy 5kg or more

I think you'd need to be buying a sack in a bulk buy to get it much cheaper.


----------



## Nick JD

Mark^Bastard said:


> http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=773
> 
> $4/kg,
> 
> $3.50/kg if you buy 5kg or more
> 
> I think you'd need to be buying a sack in a bulk buy to get it much cheaper.



25kg sacks can be had for $60.


----------



## brenjak

Infinitee said:


> I just want to second (third? tenth?!) the thanks and congrats on this guide.
> 
> Nice and claritous. Just like my beer isn't
> 
> Great pictures and I agree with previous comments that the guts & balls of this tutorial would be useful if made into a .pdf for ready distribution.
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> 
> Makes it seem so easy and you've inspired me to get grainy.
> 
> It's hard to find a decently priced 20L pot these days though.



Agree here. a .pdf guide would great. SWMBO can then sit on facebook more whilst i "study"


----------



## mintsauce

on Craftbrewer.com.au if you order more than around 20 Kg of grains the price drops even further - to $2.40 per Kg for that one which Mark picked out - just try putting large amounts into your cart.


----------



## fergi

couple of things here, i have bought my 20 litre pot and a gas ring burner, now do i need to buy a candy thermometer or can i use my stainless steel fowlers thermometer, i have just put 500 grms of wheat into my wifes Kenwood chef with the blender attached and gave the wheat a blast for 1 minute, it seems to have powdered about half of the wheat and the rest looks damaged.i guess if i put it through for a couple of minutes it would be finer, so i think i will use this instead of buying a coffee grinder, i will post pics of the ground wheat shortly, 
fergi


----------



## extra-cheese

Or this link

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=869


----------



## Nick JD

fergi said:


> do i need to buy a candy thermometer or can i use my stainless steel fowlers thermometer



Any thermometer that will read around the 60-70 degree C mark and is accurate to within a degree will work fine.


----------



## bcp

If you want to make 20litres, can it be done with a 10 litre pot? Is it possible to make a more concentrated boil in a 10litre pot and add more water (like another 10 litres) afterwards? Or are the limits for the water to absorb the malts and oils, etc?


----------



## Darren

Couldnt one do that with $15 worth of copper tubing and fittings without use of a sewing machine or a "winch"? 


cheers

darren

EDIT: Sorry for the crappy drawing.

Once mash is finished, give the tubing a "suck" and the wort drains into the collecting pot.

Easy to make (unless sewing is your forte'), easy to use, easy to clean, easy to store


----------



## MarkBastard

What the hell are you talking about Darren?


----------



## Sammus

Mark^Bastard said:


> What the hell are you talking about Darren?


 ie not biab


----------



## Tony

Nova said:


> Btw Hello Tony



Oh dear GOD :blink: 

NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :icon_cheers:


----------



## manticle

Darren said:


> Couldnt one do that with $15 worth of copper tubing and fittings without use of a sewing machine or a "winch"?
> 
> 
> cheers
> 
> darren



I've had my issues with you in the past but I'm going to try to answer this civilly and without resorting to any kind of insult.

By the way - I use a copper manifold (which cost a lot more than $15).

I believe the point of what Nick is suggesting is something that's a lot easier than putting together a copper manifold. Yes it can be done with a small amount of effort and some time but anyone who isn't particularly schooled with tools etc may struggle. I know I did (got there in the end in spite of myself).

It's just a different method of getting to the same goal and one that some people may find a lot easier than others.


----------



## Darren

See edited post above.. ....

Not too many guys i know have access to a sewing machine or the patience to hold a bag with 5 kilos of wet malt above a pot for 10 or so minutes.

Most I know have a drill and a drill-bit to drill the copper manifold (of course you could use braided hose to save drilling if you are that handicapped).

Added benefit is that it will last for ever as opposed to a stinking dirty "swiss voile bag".

cheers

Darren

EDIT: Braided hose alternative


----------



## Nick JD

Darren said:


> Couldnt one do that with $15 worth of copper tubing and fittings without use of a sewing machine or a "winch"?



What sewing machine? What winch? 

Mash tun is kettle (hell, it's even been the fermenter). 

Suggesting complication is simple.


----------



## RdeVjun

bcp said:


> If you want to make 20litres, can it be done with a 10 litre pot? Is it possible to make a more concentrated boil in a 10litre pot and add more water (like another 10 litres) afterwards? Or are the limits for the water to absorb the malts and oils, etc?


Yep bcp, at a stretch. Hops utilisation takes a hit above about 1.050 though, so you have to add more for the same effect. Here's a more- complicated- than- necessary graph: 





Source: http://users.rcn.com/thor.dnai/dboard/dbnewsl/t9510d.htm

I've written a bit about it here. For your sort of numbers, look at about roughly 20- 40% more hops required.

Conversion of sugars efficiently may become problematic at those ratios, other punters might have more to say on that, I've never quite pushed it that far. I've made 23 litre batches of mid- standard %abv from 17 litres of post- boil wort though. I'm part way through writing this sort of process up, just have to bear with me for a bit... 

I'd try it and see though- there's a pretty fair chance there will be something worthwhile drinking! 

And listen guys, its the *boil* the question is about! That's the bit that comes after mashing, right? Get a grip lads...  Here's the quote:


> Is it possible to make a more concentrated boil in a 10litre pot and add more water (like another 10 litres) afterwards?


Now quit feeding the troll!

Edit: If you all guys with manifolds, eskies, mash tuns and bits of copper pipe can knock out your entire AG kit for thirty clams, please do go on. Otherwise, can you i) note the thread title and ii) take it elsewhere please? That would be really super.


----------



## Nick JD

Darren said:


> See edited post above.. ....
> 
> Not too many guys i know have access to a sewing machine or the patience to hold a bag with 5 kilos of wet malt above a pot for 10 or so minutes.
> 
> Most I know have a drill and a drill-bit to drill the copper manifold (of course you could use braided hose to save drilling if you are that handicapped).
> 
> Added benefit is that it will last for ever as opposed to a stinking dirty "swiss voile bag".
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Meh. My fingers have better things to do than type wasted words for people who not only missed the point, they are running after it like a retard..


----------



## manticle

Darren said:


> See edited post above.. ....
> 
> Not too many guys i know have access to a sewing machine or the patience to hold a bag with 5 kilos of wet malt above a pot for 10 or so minutes.
> 
> Most I know have a drill and a drill-bit to drill the copper manifold (of course you could use braided hose to save drilling if you are that handicapped).
> 
> Added benefit is that it will last for ever as opposed to a stinking dirty "swiss voile bag".
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



I'm a bit confused. How does the wort drain from the diagram kettle? Is it siphoned or is there a tap?

Copper manifold is more than just a drill bit (and drilling rounded copper is a pain - I used a dremel for slots on mine and it took a good couple of hours. When I tried drill bits the first time they just snapped). You need joining pieces which together would cost more than the $15 you suggest.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a fan (and user) of the manifold but I'm not sure my preference for one method over another is anything more than just that - preference.

To add - copper manifold won't last forever unless it's looked after - same as any equipment. Swiss voile is probably quite cheap to replace and I believe Nick's method bypasses the need for a sewing machine or winch anyway. Read the thread from beginning to end.


----------



## MarkBastard

Darren you are a dead set idiot.

For starters my last partial I did on the stove was using a 1 metre square piece of fabric with NO sewing. None required.

Secondly this is a small grain bill on a stove, no winch needed, but I'm not surprised you'd think it needed considering you're such a girl. I still remember that time you complained about carrying grain bags for some bulk buy like a little bitch.


----------



## MarkBastard

Also... http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=2889


----------



## Darren

Yep its syphon. 

Cleaning the "voile" would be nothing other than a pain in the but plus it will mely if heated too high.

Braided hose or a hacksaw to cut slits if using copper is not very difficult at all.

cheers

Darren (just offering an alternative)


----------



## Darren

Mark^Bastard said:


> Also... http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=2889




I bet they smell really good when drying. Great way to contaminate future brews with beer spoilage organisms too  

cheers

Darren


----------



## Tony

Ahhh another thread to the dogs.

Started out well.

wont be long and people wont bother putting stuff like this up at all.

Will just be the forum with no beer.


----------



## bum

Darren said:


> Darren (just offering an alternative)



Actually, you're offering the commonplace and traditional. Nick is offering an alternative.


----------



## Nick JD

bcp said:


> If you want to make 20litres, can it be done with a 10 litre pot? Is it possible to make a more concentrated boil in a 10litre pot and add more water (like another 10 litres) afterwards? Or are the limits for the water to absorb the malts and oils, etc?



All pots need some room between the bubbling liquid and the rim. The one I've used in this example is a 15L pot, with about 11L of liquid in it maximum. 

You can push the envelope though ... but have a mop handy, and some burn ointment.

In the past, I've put 4kg of grain into 11L of water. With 2kg in 11L, I get ~1.045 SG. With 4kg I don't get 1.090 - more like 1.075. So as you can see, it's a great way to waste grain. But it is cheap - so who really cares? 

But I've found if you really want massive batches, go and buy massive gear. I'm sorry but I don't have a $30 method of doing 50L batches - I wish. You could just get a massive pot and a cat-o-nine-tails to whip your poor stovetop with ... but I'm afraid this kind of thing bottoms out at an inefficient 23L batch max.

But again I'll stress, it's by only doing 9L at a time that your learning curve flattens out. After cracking open that 12th longneck, you've finished what you learnt and you have already brewed three new recipes. Unless your liver looks like dried road-kill; the best way to learn quickly how to do this AG malarky is to go small.


----------



## Darren

Typical input from Tony


----------



## manticle

Darren said:


> Yep its syphon.
> 
> Cleaning the "voile" would be nothing other than a pain in the but plus it will mely if heated too high.
> 
> Braided hose or a hacksaw to cut slits if using copper is not very difficult at all.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren (just offering an alternative)




Alternatives are fine Darren. I guess that's what brew in a bag is. I like copper. I like manifolds. I also like alternatives.

The way you write these things comes across as undermining rather than helpful. Maybe that's unintentional?

Anyway, out of curiosity how does the siphon operate (genuine curiosity as I have never siphoned). Is it like a racking siphon attached to the hose or is it old school, mouth operated? 

Also at what temp does swiss voile melt? (again genuine question as it's also something I don't use).


----------



## Tony

Darren said:


> Typical input from Tony



I wont bite..... but a picture can say a thousand words


----------



## Darren

bum said:


> Actually, you're offering the commonplace and traditional. Nick is offering an alternative.




Bum,

No, traditional is to drill the pot. This method preserves the pot (for more conventional uses like cooking) butalso allows the beginner brewer to make small batches with little fuss or mess.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Nick JD

Hey Darren - you know how your Mum washes your crusty undies? That's how you wash your grain bag. 

If you care - I just rinse mine under the tap. It's part of the wonderful "pre-boil" collection of my things that I rarely, if ever clean. 

The bags probably smell when they're drying (of wonderful sweet beer juice), but since they're on the line with the missus's underwear, I prefer not to alarm the neighbours by sniffing anything on the Hoist.

Thanks for your contribution. I'm glad you prefer thread derailing over train derailing.


----------



## manticle

Darren said:


> Bum,
> 
> No, traditional is to drill the pot. This method preserves the pot (for more conventional uses like cooking) butalso allows the beginner brewer to make small batches with little fuss or mess.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Again a genuine suggestion - start a how to thread for new brewers with pics etc like this thread has.

A lot of new brewers could get a lot of inspiration and could choose for themselves which method they think suits them.


----------



## Sammus

lighten up guys, without these kinds of arguments the forum would be boorrriing.... whether or not I agree with Darren is beside the point, his posts never fail to liven you bunch up at the end of a staling thread


----------



## bum

Darren said:


> This method preserves the pot (for more conventional uses like cooking) butalso allows the beginner brewer to make small batches with little fuss or mess.



As does Nick's method.

Except his folds away into nothing - where does one put your tun design in a crowded kitchen? So is your alternative about making this less practical? You could probably get a grant for that.

[EDIT: bizarre punctuation]


----------



## manticle

Sammus said:


> lighten up guys, without these kinds of arguments the forum would be boorrriing.... whether or not I agree with Darren is beside the point, his posts never fail to liven you bunch up at the end of a staling thread




Trying to engage civilly and rationally with said argument.


----------



## MarkBastard

The brilliance of this thread (originally) is that it over-simplified the method so that people new to mashing would not be put off.

The last thing the thread needs is a boring old argument from the people that have been doing it for years.

Darren there is no way your idea is more practical and it certainly costs a lot more money. I must admit it is interesting though (other than having to suck out wort that's at mash out temps with your mouth into a magic extra vessel)


----------



## bum

manticle said:


> Trying to engage civilly and rationally with said argument.



Manticle, I need this pile of manure here moved to the top of that hill - gimme a boost?


----------



## Darren

Nick JD said:


> Hey Darren - you know how your Mum washes your crusty undies? That's how you wash your grain bag.
> 
> If you care - I just rinse mine under the tap. It's part of the wonderful "pre-boil" collection of my things that I rarely, if ever clean.
> 
> The bags probably smell when they're drying (of wonderful sweet beer juice), but since they're on the line with the missus's underwear, I prefer not to alarm the neighbours by sniffing anything on the Hoist.
> 
> Thanks for your contribution. I'm glad you prefer thread derailing over train derailing.




Nick,

Not an intentional thread derail simply pointing out to you and others that what appears to be cheap and simple can be acheived just as simply by other means.

I did mention before and will mention again, that wort contaminated Swiss voile is a great medium for microbiological survival (heat resistant beer spoilage organisms). I would suggest that rather than simply washing under the tap that the "voile" should also be boiled for a few minutes (in the microwave if you like) to sanitise prior to re-use.

cheers

darren


----------



## manticle

Darren said:


> Nick,
> 
> Not an intentional thread derail simply pointing out to you and others that what appears to be cheap and simple can be acheived just as simply by other means.
> 
> I did mention before and will mention again, that wort contaminated Swiss voile is a great medium for microbiological survival (heat resistant beer spoilage organisms). I would suggest that rather than simply washing under the tap that the "voile" should also be boiled for a few minutes (in the microwave if you like) to sanitise prior to re-use.
> 
> cheers
> 
> darren


But doesn't that contradict your suggestion that swiss voile will melt with too much heat?



bum said:


> Manticle, I need this pile of manure here moved to the top of that hill - gimme a boost?



You can stand on my mash tun.












Shortarse.


----------



## Darren

Mark^Bastard said:


> The brilliance of this thread (originally) is that it over-simplified the method so that people new to mashing would not be put off.
> 
> The last thing the thread needs is a boring old argument from the people that have been doing it for years.
> 
> Darren there is no way your idea is more practical and it certainly costs a lot more money. I must admit it is interesting though (other than having to suck out wort that's at mash out temps with your mouth into a magic extra vessel)




Bastard,

Nothing be learned from people doing this kinda stuff for years is there?

Magical extra vessel? Huh, do you only have one pot in your kitchen?

Just in case you did not realise, mash temp wort is about 30 degrees C cooler than black coffee  

Anyhow, last post in this thread. 

Sorry again for thinking out of the square.

cheers

Darren

Edit: Manticle. I suspect SV will only melt in contact with either elements or gas heated metal pot bottoms. If it does melt at boiling water temps then it should definately not be used in food preparation at 65-75 C


----------



## Barley Belly

Just sipping some Home Brew and watching the fire fight


----------



## manticle

Nothing wrong with thinking outside the square. Please begin a thread detailing your single pot method using copper/braid. It could actually be of some use to some people as this thread is. 



Darren said:


> Edit: Manticle. I suspect SV will only melt in contact with either elements or gas heated metal pot bottoms. If it does melt at boiling water temps then it should definately not be used in food preparation at 65-75 C



I believe (not a BIABEer so I could be wrong) that the bag is not meant to touch the bottom/element when done correctly. I'm sure if it received direct heat that it might but so might my plastic mash paddle. I avoid that by not letting it touch an element. Couldn't beer be made by using either voile OR copper? Isn't it possible? Sure there's things to watch out for but you seem to think there's no way it can be done well. I think your perspective is a little skewed.


----------



## MarkBastard

Darren said:


> Bastard,
> 
> Nothing be learned from people doing this kinda stuff for years is there?
> 
> Magical extra vessel? Huh, do you only have one pot in your kitchen?
> 
> Just in case you did not realise, mash temp wort is about 30 degrees C cooler than black coffee
> 
> Anyhow, last post in this thread.
> 
> Sorry again for thinking out of the square.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren
> 
> Edit: Manticle. I suspect SV will only melt in contact with either elements or gas heated metal pot bottoms. If it does melt at boiling water temps then it should definately not be used in food preparation at 65-75 C



ohh so superman darren can suck 78 degrees wort without flinching but the thought of lifting 2kg of grain is a big no-no


----------



## Barley Belly

Come back Darren I've just poured another schooner.............noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## fergi

well i started reading this thread out of curiosity about biab, until now i have always made kits and bits because i liked the beer i was making and didnt really want to spend the extra money and time doing all grain, after all is a kits and bits beer that i really like worse or better than an all grain beer that i dont like.see where this argument could go, anyway after starting to read nicks method i got really interested, so i went out and bought a gas burner and large stainless pot ,started setting things up in my shed instead of the kitchen and actually looking forward to doing a dead easy all grain beer and trying it out with no expectations of what it will taste like,so really lets keep this thread where it started , easy/cheap all grain beer method, sure you could start changing things to make it "DIFFERENT" but thats not the intention of the original thread, if i have to start making all these other modifications well i am just not interested in doing all grain, but with Nicks comprehensive tutorial i am going to do my first all grain and regardless of the outcome this will probably swing me over to all grain so lets keep this thread exactly for what it was intended, a really easy/cheap all grain method.if you want to post something in this thread try doing it this way and then give us a rundown on how it went and what your beer turned out like
cheers

fergi


----------



## Sammus

manticle said:


> Trying to engage civilly and rationally with said argument.



Yeah, you're doing well too, I was more thinking of people who have to make insults for some strange reason, I think insults play no part here, even if you do find Darren annoying for whatever reason.

And to your other question, the original BIAB thing recommended SV that is 100% polyester, which according to wiki is generally just PET, and thus doesn't melt till it hits 260C or thereabouts.. not sure at what temp it would start leeching nasties, but I reckon itd be pretty hard to melt in boiling water


----------



## RdeVjun

fergi said:


> well i started reading this thread out of curiosity about biab, until now i have always made kits and bits because i liked the beer i was making and didnt really want to spend the extra money and time doing all grain, after all is a kits and bits beer that i really like worse or better than an all grain beer that i dont like.see where this argument could go, anyway after starting to read nicks method i got really interested, so i went out and bought a gas burner and large stainless pot ,started setting things up in my shed instead of the kitchen and actually looking forward to doing a dead easy all grain beer and trying it out with no expectations of what it will taste like,so really lets keep this thread where it started , easy/cheap all grain beer method, sure you could start changing things to make it "DIFFERENT" but thats not the intention of the original thread, if i have to start making all these other modifications well i am just not interested in doing all grain, but with Nicks comprehensive tutorial i am going to do my first all grain and regardless of the outcome this will probably swing me over to all grain so lets keep this thread exactly for what it was intended, a really easy/cheap all grain method.if you want to post something in this thread try doing it this way and then give us a rundown on how it went and what your beer turned out like
> cheers
> 
> fergi


+ 1 fergi! Glad to see folks such as yourself have been willing to dip their toes in the pond! I tried this method earlier this year as a stopgap while I was in the process of sorting out a 3-V setup, and to be quite honest, I really haven't seen a desperate need to go to such lengths now. This method works just fine for me, and despite what trolls and detractors might hypothesize could go wrong, the basic BIAB method actually knocks out some pretty decent beers, award- winning in fact. Well, a BIAB variant, at least...  
Obviously, techniques can be changed and developed some more, but there's no reason now why you can't have a chop at it, just like Nick showed us, and without the sometimes massive expense of a more traditional setup. So congrats, and let us know if you hit any dramas along the way, we'll be glad to assist!
:beer:


----------



## PistolPatch

manticle said:


> Also at what temp does swiss voile melt? (again genuine question as it's also something I don't use).


I looked this up a few months back and if my memory serves correctly, it is about 250 degrees celsius.

Bag is easy to clean, easier than a mash tun. Rinse under tap and throw in washing machine.

Good to see a simple guide and that it is attracting a lot of interest. Well done! I have found a brewer here to re-write the BIABrewer website. Once done, we'll throw in a section of guides for varying levels of expertise and equipment. A couple of little corrections and this one might find itself there with the author's permission of course  .

Donya,
Pat


----------



## wynnum1

candy thermometer is for higher tempatures may be a meat thermomater would work better


----------



## Bribie G

Darren said:


> I bet they smell really good when drying. Great way to contaminate future brews with beer spoilage organisms too
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



I rinse my bag out then put in washing machine with hop sock etc, comes out sweet as. You are a worry, poor old Dazza.


----------



## wynnum1

bag can not contaminate temperature is to high when you mash and if the boil does not stop contamination you got something very nasty


----------



## katzke

I ran the bag through the wash after it was sewn up. I did that just to take any sizing out of it.

It has never touched anything but tap water and PBW. If I were worried about it I would either boil it or use sanitizer.

I have never had to clean a mash tun so have no idea what people do. I bet there are lots of places an infection can hide. Never have ever heard of a problem with an infection from a mash tun. After all any sane brewer will go immediately to the boil from the mash. Wooden paddles are used for mash paddles. They are never put in the wort as they are known to be dirty.

Bags are the only way to brew at the home brew scale in my opinion. Dont believe me brew an all wheat beer in a mash tun with out extra stuff tossed in or extra long sparge times to deal with the wheat. BIAB is quicker, cheaper, and makes just as good of a beer. 

Sorry caught me in a bad beer mood.


----------



## Leigh

PistolPatch said:


> I looked this up a few months back and if my memory serves correctly, it is about 250 degrees celsius.
> 
> Bag is easy to clean, easier than a mash tun. Rinse under tap and throw in washing machine.
> 
> Good to see a simple guide and that it is attracting a lot of interest. Well done! I have found a brewer here to re-write the *BIABrewer* website. Once done, we'll throw in a section of guides for varying levels of expertise and equipment. A couple of little corrections and this one might find itself there with the author's permission of course  .
> 
> Donya,
> Pat



I will be interested to read this new *Brew In A Brewer* website  :icon_drunk:


----------



## manticle

katzke said:


> I ran the bag through the wash after it was sewn up. I did that just to take any sizing out of it.
> 
> It has never touched anything but tap water and PBW. If I were worried about it I would either boil it or use sanitizer.
> 
> I have never had to clean a mash tun so have no idea what people do. I bet there are lots of places an infection can hide. Never have ever heard of a problem with an infection from a mash tun. After all any sane brewer will go immediately to the boil from the mash. Wooden paddles are used for mash paddles. They are never put in the wort as they are known to be dirty.
> 
> Bags are the only way to brew at the home brew scale in my opinion. Don't believe me brew an all wheat beer in a mash tun with out extra stuff tossed in or extra long sparge times to deal with the wheat. BIAB is quicker, cheaper, and makes just as good of a beer.
> 
> Sorry caught me in a bad beer mood.



Darren's (sometimes inexplicable) opposition to BIAB is well known. Most other brewers feel that tun vs bag wars are fairly pointless.


----------



## Sgriff

Nice one Nick very helpful be tryin this weekend cant wait


----------



## Nick JD

Sgriff said:


> Nice one Nick very helpful be tryin this weekend cant wait



No worries. Have fun.


----------



## RobH

It's going to be a while before I get a full-on AG rig set up, so with this guide I rekon I am going to give BIAB a try.

Where's the best place to buy Swiss Voile? Spotlight?
And you use specifically Swiss Voile because of what reason? 100% cotton, or not? The size of the weave?

Regarding hops, I have Ringwood, Cascade, and Amarillo hop pellets - would any of these be a good substitute for what is mentioned in the article (Simcoe & Riwaka)?

Also, instead of using the green (or blue) bucket, would suspending the bag above the pot and squeezing it directly into the pot be just as effective? Or is it more of a "Shit goes everywhere" issue, and doing that over your pot on the stove would cause a mess?

Thanks for the article - and just like other newbs to AG like myself I am going to give it a try because it is so simple to get set up, less volume than a regular brew, & therefore less expectations and less dissapointment if I stuff it up.

:beerbang: Rock on!


----------



## Nick JD

Well folks - here she is! 







It's been in the bottle three days, so is far from being clear, or at its best. But I can give you a rundown.

20g of Carafa 3 was too much, next time 10g (have added comments to book o' recipes) - tates of carafa, no other malts. The bitterness is bang on. Foam is perfect. D Saaz not "big" enough - need to double, which might help the carafa overkill. 

No problems at 24 degrees with US05. Bonus is I'm drinking it already! These small batches ferment out in record time - not sure of the physics behind it, but I've had a few 48 hour ferments when dumping it on the yeast from the previous brew.

Which I'm about to do tomorrow. Drain the fermenter into 7, 1.25L bottles and then fill it back up with this (once cooled tomorrow):






It's 1.8kg ale malt and 700g of rice. Great Pale for this weather.






And in one of them I'm gonna add these magic beans.






Grapefruit skittles instead of priming sugar in one bottle. See if I get cascade  aroma.

If you look at the ingredients list ... it reads like beer anyway!


----------



## Nick JD

RobH said:


> It's going to be a while before I get a full-on AG rig set up, so with this guide I rekon I am going to give BIAB a try.
> 
> Where's the best place to buy Swiss Voile? Spotlight?
> And you use specifically Swiss Voile because of what reason? 100% cotton, or not? The size of the weave?
> 
> Regarding hops, I have Ringwood, Cascade, and Amarillo hop pellets - would any of these be a good substitute for what is mentioned in the article (Simcoe & Riwaka)?
> 
> Also, instead of using the green (or blue) bucket, would suspending the bag above the pot and squeezing it directly into the pot be just as effective? Or is it more of a "Shit goes everywhere" issue, and doing that over your pot on the stove would cause a mess?
> 
> Thanks for the article - and just like other newbs to AG like myself I am going to give it a try because it is so simple to get set up, less volume than a regular brew, & therefore less expectations and less dissapointment if I stuff it up.
> 
> :beerbang: Rock on!



Spotlight. I got "ivory", not sure if they actually have "white". Why Swiss Voile? Dunno - I'm copying the BIAB pioneers. I think it's technically a nylon. 

Hops? There are no rules. Generally, if the AA% is 10+, use it for bittering. Less than 10% flavour/aroma. Break these rules too - they are merely guidelines. Some of the best flavour hops have huge AA%.

You could suspend the bag over the pot no worries - but you'll need a suspension point. I don't have one - so it's a job for the green bucket. 

The beer you make this way will be better than your best K&K ... by far. Be anal about sanitization post-boil, and you'll be fine.

EDIT: Try 10g POR for 60min, 7g Amarillo for 20min, but don't be too concerned about getting it "right" (whatever that is). Fix it next time if it's broke. It won't be.


----------



## Sammus

Nick JD said:


> Spotlight. I got "ivory", not sure if they actually have "white". Why Swiss Voile? Dunno - I'm copying the BIAB pioneers. I think it's technically a nylon.
> 
> Hops? There are no rules. Generally, if the AA% is 10+, use it for bittering. Less than 10% flavour/aroma. Break these rules too - they are merely guidelines. Some of the best flavour hops have huge AA%.
> 
> You could suspend the bag over the pot no worries - but you'll need a suspension point. I don't have one - so it's a job for the green bucket.
> 
> The beer you make this way will be better than your best K&K ... by far. Be anal about sanitization post-boil, and you'll be fine.
> 
> EDIT: Try 10g POR for 60min, 7g Amarillo for 20min, but don't be too concerned about getting it "right" (whatever that is). Fix it next time if it's broke. It won't be.



you can get swiss voille in all kinds of fabrics. They say to use the polyester one in the BIAB book for whatever reason - probably because polyester is PET, and we all know PET is ok for food.


----------



## lespaul

RobH said:


> Where's the best place to buy Swiss Voile? Spotlight?
> And you use specifically Swiss Voile because of what reason? 100% cotton, or not? The size of the weave?



regarding this...i bought the cotton voile from the fabric store because she said swiss was the brand <_< 

ANYWAY...what the hell can i use a big cotton voile for? is it too fine for hops?


----------



## Sammus

nah cotton would be alright too i reckon. swiss is the brand, but they make poly and cotton voille. At spotlight, the cotton stuff is with all the regular fabrics, and the poly stuff is with all the weird curtain fabrics, normally a different sections. At least thats how it was at my local spotlight.


----------



## WarmBeer

'Swiss' is the type of voille, not the brand. There were other types of 'voille' in Spotlight when I went in there to buy mine, with other weaves, some with patterns, and some in a very nice shade of lime 

Voille will be great for a hop bag, just buy an extra half metre of it, and get your mother in law to sew it into a couple of 'money-bags', with a draw string. At least, that's what I did!


----------



## corcatraz

Thanks Nick. Appreciate it. It's enticing for a noob like me to want to try something new. 

Do you find this method to produce noticeably better results than extract brewing?


----------



## PistolPatch

Regarding the material questions above, cotton or any natural fibres are best avoided. Stick with the polyester.

People have tried things like calico and have had problems. Polyester is inert, has the very high melting point and does not seem to deteriorate or lose strength - several years/brews of my bags bear witness.

The bag will develop "tea-stains," quite quickly but this is fine. I would recommend just washing the bag in your washing machine. Avoid things like bleach which is very aggressive on any material.



Leigh said:


> I will be interested to read this new *Brew In A Brewer* website  :icon_drunk:



The site has been up for over a year (BIABrewer) and hasn't changed at all since then as I have found the computer/web side of things extremely difficult to firstly envisage and then find someone who could make it happen. Until two weeks ago, I had not been able to find the final right person to get this site up to a a very high standard on a zero budget so I have had to let it sit idly. The final and main ingredient has finally arrived (an AHB member) so all should change in the New Year!!! I have the stuff written or collected, the techno side is all that remains but it is a big ask and it is not simple. When it is done, I hope that to the reader, of any brewing level, it looks VERY simple and is VERY easy to access the best and most appropriate information.

BIAB is now being practiced in several continents - America being the first. I can't tell you how hard it is finding the time to write guides etc that suit everyone let alone trying to correct myths  

*BIABrewer* was the best domain I could think of at the time. It stands for, "Brew in A Bag Brewer." As always though, I am open to suggestions. I always take on board suggestions/questions/PMs from enthusiastic/constructive, inexperienced/experienced brewers who like to see brewing education move forward. Sometimes I don't have time to answer individually but most of the time I do.

:icon_cheers:


----------



## PistolPatch

corcatraz said:


> Do you find this method to produce noticeably better results than extract brewing?


If you are brewing beer with kits and you like the result, I see very little reason to move to all-grain. Occasionally, I taste extremely good, actually excellent kit beers. What annoys me is that more often than not, these beers have been brewed totally contrary to accepted brewing advice. I have tasted kit beers from InCider a few years ago who fermented his beers in his back shed in QLD which must have sat at about 35 degrees on average.

You hear a lot of bullshit in the brewing world but, trust me, if I could get the same result as some kit brewers get, I would not brew all-grain for several of my beers.

My palate is highly susceptible to sourness and kits are more susceptible to this. This cidery taste is commonly known as, "Extract Twang." If you get or taste this personally in your kit beers, you should move on to a different way of brewing assuming you are a clean brewer. Don't question your brewing skills too much. The hardest beer to brew well is a kit beer. Some people do but they are a rarity and they often are maverick.

Fresh Wort Kits (FWK) are the next thing you should consider. Whilst they are twice the cost of tins they are easy and reliable and do not require any capital cost. You will not get extract twang from them and they are the least labour-intensive form of brewing available. I have never had a bad beer from a FWK.

If you are brewing with FWK and not having any problems but want to be able to start creating your own recipes then all-grain is the way to go.

BIAB (a single vessel system - this thread is a mini-version of BIAB) will give you the same quality beer as a more traditional system (batch or fly-sparging which requires three vessels). It is certainly the most sensible way to start all-graining and I am yet to see a good reason to change from BIAB to a three vessel system. The beer you get is the same as from a three-vessel system. I used to have a three vessel system. Now I have two single vessel systems that can both do double-batches. On my brew day, in the same amount of time, with the same capital cost (a bit less actually) I produce 4 x the amount of beer than you can get from three vessels and this is of 2 different styles! You've gotta love that!

But, in saying all that, I seriously recommend Kit brewers who are struggling to brew a decent beer (they find anything they brew sour) to first try Fresh Wort Kits.

:icon_cheers: 
Pat


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Excuse me while I ruthlessly plug....

I can't promise AG for less than $30 ... but I am helping to run a BIAB demo at G&G on the 14th and you will be able to see how its done on a larger scale than shown in this thread. Should give you a better handle on the general processes and then you can apply them to either the quite nice set of instructions found right here, or to a bigger system that would run you $100-150 for all new gear.

Enough from me - here's a link to the post I made in the appropriate section. Just thought it might be interesting to prospective new AG brewers.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=547332

Thirsty


----------



## James_B

Another quick Q :

20 g Amarillo (Pellets, 8.9 AA%, 60 mins) 
15 g Amarillo (Pellets, 8.9 AA%, 10 mins) 
15 g Amarillo (Pellets, 8.9 AA%, 5 mins) 
15 g Amarillo (Pellets, 8.9 AA%, 0 mins)

Am I reading that right as with 60 mins left on the boil add 20g of Amarillo, at 10 mins left remove that and add a fresh 15g, at 5 mins left remove and add another 15g? Do you just leave those hops dangling in there till the end?


----------



## Bribie G

James_B said:


> Another quick Q :
> 
> 20 g Amarillo (Pellets, 8.9 AA%, 60 mins)
> 15 g Amarillo (Pellets, 8.9 AA%, 10 mins)
> 15 g Amarillo (Pellets, 8.9 AA%, 5 mins)
> 15 g Amarillo (Pellets, 8.9 AA%, 0 mins)
> 
> Am I reading that right as with 60 mins left on the boil add 20g of Amarillo, at 10 mins left remove that and add a fresh 15g, at 5 mins left remove and add another 15g? Do you just leave those hops dangling in there till the end?



No you keep each addition in the wort, don't take anything out. That's why they are called hop _additions_ and the last addition just floats around there releasing a final hit of aroma while you are doing your end of boil thing (letting it settle, arranging your syphoning gear, having a sit down and a beer, whatever)


----------



## James_B

Then remove all hops before racking it to a cube or still leave it?


----------



## MarkBastard

James_B said:


> Then remove all hops before racking it to a cube or still leave it?



Remove them if possible.


----------



## corcatraz

PistolPatch said:


> If you are brewing beer with kits and you like the result, I see very little reason to move to all-grain. Occasionally, I taste extremely good, actually excellent kit beers. What annoys me is that more often than not, these beers have been brewed totally contrary to accepted brewing advice. I have tasted kit beers from InCider a few years ago who fermented his beers in his back shed in QLD which must have sat at about 35 degrees on average.
> 
> You hear a lot of bullshit in the brewing world but, trust me, if I could get the same result as some kit brewers get, I would not brew all-grain for several of my beers.
> 
> My palate is highly susceptible to sourness and kits are more susceptible to this. This cidery taste is commonly known as, "Extract Twang." If you get or taste this personally in your kit beers, you should move on to a different way of brewing assuming you are a clean brewer. Don't question your brewing skills too much. The hardest beer to brew well is a kit beer. Some people do but they are a rarity and they often are maverick.
> 
> Fresh Wort Kits (FWK) are the next thing you should consider. Whilst they are twice the cost of tins they are easy and reliable and do not require any capital cost. You will not get extract twang from them and they are the least labour-intensive form of brewing available. I have never had a bad beer from a FWK.
> 
> If you are brewing with FWK and not having any problems but want to be able to start creating your own recipes then all-grain is the way to go.
> 
> BIAB (a single vessel system - this thread is a mini-version of BIAB) will give you the same quality beer as a more traditional system (batch or fly-sparging which requires three vessels). It is certainly the most sensible way to start all-graining and I am yet to see a good reason to change from BIAB to a three vessel system. The beer you get is the same as from a three-vessel system. I used to have a three vessel system. Now I have two single vessel systems that can both do double-batches. On my brew day, in the same amount of time, with the same capital cost (a bit less actually) I produce 4 x the amount of beer than you can get from three vessels and this is of 2 different styles! You've gotta love that!
> 
> But, in saying all that, I seriously recommend Kit brewers who are struggling to brew a decent beer (they find anything they brew sour) to first try Fresh Wort Kits.
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> Pat



Thanks for the info Pistol. I wasnt happy with the kits I brewed and I'm drinking my first extract brew atm. Its a nice step up from my kits but if there is better beer to be made I'd be keen to try it. I'm more interested in making quality beer than saving money. I'd say I will try something like this in the future as my resources are fairly limited but for now I'm happy gaining experience with every brew.
:beer:


----------



## Nick JD

corcatraz said:


> Do you find this method to produce noticeably better results than extract brewing?



Yes. 

I really enjoyed Pat's "The hardest beer to brew well is a kit beer", quote. This is very true.

Making beer this way will produce a beer that IMO, doesn't taste like "homebrew". Mainly because it's how beer is supposed to be made.

The best instant coffee in the world will not taste like fresh ground, brewed coffee.


----------



## mintsauce

Nick JD said:


> The best instant coffee in the world will not taste like fresh ground, brewed coffee.


Touch great leader!

Anyhow, does anyone have a list of simple ales & hops etc which can be brewed with a small list of hops? I see the recipy database as a bit daughtning and everything seems to have a list of different ingredients (I do realise this is how things are made to be different but I'm just after a couple slightly different things from the same base malt with perhaps just some different specialty hops.


----------



## MarkBastard

Look for beers called 'SMASH' beers. SMASH stands for single malt and single hop.


----------



## humper_zim

MintSauce said:


> Touch great leader!
> 
> Anyhow, does anyone have a list of simple ales & hops etc which can be brewed with a small list of hops? I see the recipy database as a bit daughtning and everything seems to have a list of different ingredients (I do realise this is how things are made to be different but I'm just after a couple slightly different things from the same base malt with perhaps just some different specialty hops.




Likewise MS. I have mostly been doing K&K, but have also helped out with a friends' extract and AG brews so Im pretty keen to try a few small BIAB brew when I have the time (soon). I just want to try a few simple brews with a small grain bill +/- a few diff specialty grains and hops to get a feel for them.

Any help would be much appreciated. I have been browsing the recipe db and will probably put a few recipes up for ppl to comment on before I try them.

Awesome threat btw! Thanks!


----------



## humper_zim

Mark^Bastard said:


> Look for beers called 'SMASH' beers. SMASH stands for single malt and single hop.




Will do, thanks


----------



## Nick JD

If you are doing a small scale AG like this thread shows and want to start simple...

9L
2kg Ale Malt
12g POR for 60 minutes
Safale US05 yeast

That's all you need. Problem is - it'll taste a lot like Melborne Bitter :blink:  .

EDIT: 

I think it needs explaining that bad/good combinations of ingredients do not make bad/good beers. If you are brewing to a "style" and entering competitions, then yes - you might be making "bad" versions of great beers. But you will still be making damn fine beer.

Like with cooking, if you use good base ingredients, add nice amounts of herbs and spices, you'll get a great meal - whether you are aiming for french quisine, or fish and chips ... there's more to cooking than accurate recreation of another recipe. Make YOUR beer!

For me, the whole point of AG is _you_ get to create _your_ own beer. If you don't make up your own recipes, to your own tastes, well, you're not in the game for the win.

Here's a 12L (maxing out my stovetop capabilities) SMASH. The 0 minute hop addition is in the fermenter.


----------



## humper_zim

Here's a 12L (maxing out my stovetop capabilities) SMASH. The 0 minute hop addition is in the fermenter.
[/quote]


Thanks Nick, I did actually see that on the recipe db and its on my list to brew


----------



## Ales_Away

Nick, thanks heaps, sweet thread.
Put down my 2nd extract brew last night, but will now definitely be getting setup for BIAB.

Awesomely simple, love it.


----------



## mintsauce

Thanks for the tips, it's not so much that I want to copy other beers or brew to style, I just don't know where to start - being in Kalgoorlie I can't just go buy some cheap hops and grains, I have to order everything with $30 freight on it....after a few idea's where to start without breaking the bank.

Cheers,


----------



## whitegoose

I'm planning on using this technique as the basis for a partial in a couple of weeks - can someone do the maths to tell me if I mashed the 2kg of base grain and ~600g of speciality grains in 10L of water - approximately how much LME or DME would I need to add if I wanted to top up the 9L wort to 23L?


----------



## MarkBastard

I'd use a tin (1.5L) of LME for that mate.

It'll come in just over 5% alcohol probably


----------



## stugur

So if I wanted to make 28ltrs....... what sg would I need in the stage before "Rotarua" ? or is it relative?

Thanks

Stug


----------



## James_B

Thanks to this guide I just started my first batch of AG! Mashing almost done but I've got yet another really stupid question, when they specify hops additions do you need to remove the previous one before adding the next or just keep adding and leaving them in until the end? 

Thanks again, it smells so good .


----------



## manticle

Leave them.


----------



## James_B

Gah was running tap water over the pot and even though it looked like the lid was sealed etc water got in, my beautiful 10L batch is now closer to 18L ><. Oh well gonna boil it down, shouldn't have too great an effect without the hops bags in I think.


----------



## fergi

just wondering about using a large aluminium brew pot for biab, i have a 20 litre stainless pot but i have come across a 30 litre aluminium one, is there any reasons i cant use the ally pot instead of the stainless
fergi


----------



## bonj

No reason at all.


----------



## Nick JD

James_B said:


> ...do you need to remove the previous one before adding the next or just keep adding and leaving them in until the end?


 
As above, you usually _never _remove the early hops additions before the heat is turned off. I did that in this example because when I tasted the beer juice with the spoon, it was getting quite bitter - so it was an opportunity to illustrate that these things are under your control when you learn to associate the flavours of the boil with the eventual flavours of your beer. Unfortunately it's added an unnecessary level of complication which I was really trying to avoid. 

So when you read a recipe, and you see "60 mins" then as the boil first starts ... add the 60 min addition and note the time. Most stoves have built in timers - it's easy to just set the timer to 60min.

So if your boil started at 4pm and you had three hop additions your notes might look like this:

4:00 10g Pacific Gem (60min)
4:40 4g Nelson Sauvin (20min)
4:55 3g B Saaz (5min) Left in. 

Often you'll see "0 min" additions - these can be a few things (like going into the cold wort in the fermenter, or into the keg weeks later), but 0 min additions are always after the flame on the burner (in this case the dial on the stove) has been turned off. 0 min additions are all about the fact that your "taste" sense is primarily the nose. The best aromatic compounds in hops are light and boil off with heat.

I often have a little voile bag of hops in the fermenter. If you do this take it easy though, especially with highly aromatic hops - but give it a try. Many people throw them in when the SG is half-way between OG and FG, because even the C02 can run off with the aromas. 

Some people get grassiness flavours if they use hops in the fermenter. I've found this has a lot to do with ferment temps and the yeast used. I get grassiness with galaxy and US05. With S04 and galaxy I don't get grassiness - so it seems there's more to dry hopping problems than duration. 

Just like people dry hop kegs, you can individually dry hop your bottles. When you prime the bottles with sugar - drop a bit of a hop pellet in there. It'll sink into the sediment. It's a great way to get to try dry hopping flavours for all your hop collection in one brew so you know what you like.


----------



## browndog

> beer juice


 :blink: What's wrong with wort?


----------



## RdeVjun

browndog said:


> :blink: What's wrong with wort?


Fair enough point browndog, however Nick started the thread as is a beginners pictorial guide to the basic processes and deliberately avoided non- technical terms so that prospective brewers might not get confused or overwhelmed by it all; from the OP:


> My goal here is to not use any "brewing words".


 I know when I first started AGing, for me it was hard to follow and seemed complex, in part due to terminology that I wasn't familiar with at the time and uncertainty about which parts of the various processes were actually important or significant and which bits could be left to explore later. If only I'd known how basic the process could've been, I would've started AGing much sooner and developed the BIAB technique I use now from there.
Nick has done an excellent job in keeping all the techspeak out and the process as simple as it can be, so I've no hesitation in recommending this to anyone as a starting point. Ditto with the BIAB demos that Thirsty and Spills are putting on at G&G which, if my info is correct, will be a run through pretty much the same process as Nick has described here. </plug! >
:beer:
Edit: Clarity.


----------



## wynnum1

the 15L pot if it fitted in the oven could you warm up the oven to a suitable tempeature say 67C turn off and then put mash pot in the oven for the hour


----------



## Nick JD

It's technically _*wrt*_ isn't it?


----------



## Nick JD

wynnum1 said:


> the 15L pot if it fitted in the oven could you warm up the oven to a suitable tempeature say 67C turn off and then put mash pot in the oven for the hour



I'm thinking you mean to bring the water up to 69-71C, add your grain and then bung it in the oven, using the oven as insulation?

Yes, I can't see why not. But three things to consider:

1.) Most candi thermometers say not to use in the oven. But at the low end I'm sure it's fine. A 200C oven might not be so good.

2.) Oven's have massive elements and thermostats that don't register much lower than 100C - it might be difficult to hit 67.

3.) Towels are easy and effective.

But try it. Report back - sounds like a good idea. Maybe do a "dry" run without any grain and note the temp in and temp out.


----------



## bonj

I think what wynnum means is to set the oven to your mash temp and put your mash pot in there. I have heard of lots of people doing it this way. The oven temperature knobs are notoriously inaccurate, so set it to something like 65... that way +/- 5 degrees won't hurt you too much. If you have an oven thermometer, so much the better!


----------



## Thirsty Boy

You don't really need to worry about the oven temperature - just pre-heat the oven to its lowest setting or 70 or so degrees if you have a thermo, then turn it off when you whack in the mash pot. On your stovetop, even an uninsulated pot wont lose all that much heat over an hour - too much but not heaps - In a warm oven it'll hardly lose any temperature at all.


----------



## bonj

Good tip, thanks for the clarification, TB.


----------



## katzke

Thirsty Boy said:


> whack in the mash pot.



Funny how we all think we speak English but can not understand what the other person is saying.

With all the stupid things we see on the TV I can just see some guy saying the damn Australians have no idea how to brew. They said to Whack the pot in the oven and no matter how hard I hit it with my big hammer it did not fit. 

And as to beer juice, it is totally wrong. Beer juice is what comes out of the drinker after having a few beers. What we get after putting malted grain in water at the correct temperature is diluted malt sugar.


----------



## lespaul

smashed the Dr S GA for the first brew in a bag! ended up with 10 litres...worked a treat, it was so easy, even for my 3rd brew ever. Not much mroe effort than the extracts is was doing, apart from the massive hassle finding the swiss voile!!!

so cheers heaps nick for such an easy, straight forward way of showing us how!!! :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers:


----------



## bum

Nick JD said:


> It's technically _*wrt*_ isn't it?



Wyrt, originally. Ye Olde English.


----------



## gsmedia

Thanks for the great post.

Just bottled my first BIAB today, and was wondering what level of carbonation is "normal". I racked after 4 days and bottled after 7 days total. When I bottled my brew was completely flat. I've mostly made wine and spirit washes previously, so carbonation wasnt really an issue.


----------



## MarkBastard

bum said:


> Wyrt, originally. Ye Olde English.



It's this kind of crap that makes using brewing words in a beginners thread a bad idea.


----------



## lespaul

gsmedia said:


> Thanks for the great post.
> 
> Just bottled my first BIAB today, and was wondering what level of carbonation is "normal". I racked after 4 days and bottled after 7 days total. When I bottled my brew was completely flat. I've mostly made wine and spirit washes previously, so carbonation wasnt really an issue.




maybe im getting confused on what you meant by your post...but the carbonation only comes after you bottle and add the priming sugar... :huh: 

even then it doesnt carb properly until after 1 or more weeks at around 20C


----------



## crozdog

gsmedia said:


> Thanks for the great post.
> 
> Just bottled my first BIAB today, and was wondering what level of carbonation is "normal". I racked after 4 days and bottled after 7 days total. When I bottled my brew was completely flat. I've mostly made wine and spirit washes previously, so carbonation wasnt really an issue.



Welcome to AHB, and brewing with grain!

Hope you added a teaspoon of sugar to each long neck! It's normal for your beer to be flat when you bottle. The extra sugar you add to the bottle provides enough food for the yeast left in the beer to carbonate the beer in the bottle.

In future you might want to leave it for a few more days before bottling as the yeast cleans up after itself; more yeast will drop out leaving a clearer finished product & less chance of producing bottle bombs. That said, if you've got a stable FG over several days, you can bottle it, I prefer to be patient

Forgot to add:
You will have some carbonation after a week, but to allow em to gas right up, you're best to leave your newly filled bottles for 3+ weeks before cracking them. This will also allow the beer to settle a bit and mature. The end result is some patience will be rewarded whereas impatience will lead to disappointment. B)


----------



## humper_zim

When finished fermenting, and racked, and just leaving it for a while for the yeast to clean up after itself, does it matter what the temp is (within reason of course), or is it still best to keep it at ~18 degrees?

mike


----------



## lespaul

mick86 said:


> When finished fermenting, and racked, and just leaving it for a while for the yeast to clean up after itself, does it matter what the temp is (within reason of course), or is it still best to keep it at ~18 degrees?
> 
> mike




you still want it about 18C...although anything less than 23 should be fine.
if you have a fridge you can crash chill the whole fermenter at about 2C for another week, which will mean a better taste and clarity.


----------



## humper_zim

lespaul said:


> you still want it about 18C...although anything less than 23 should be fine.
> if you have a fridge you can crash chill the whole fermenter at about 2C for another week, which will mean a better taste and clarity.




Yup, thanks


----------



## mattcarty

hey hey

inspired by this post i am going to give my first AG a go.

going to kick off with Dr Smurto's Golden Ale as my mate Lobo did it and i loved it.

so with recipes how do I adjust a recipe on AHB to only a 9L brew? i am guessing i want to use less grain and hops or do i still use the same amount of hops?

answers or link to information would be great

thanks

carty


----------



## manticle

I'd scale everything down appropriately. 1/2 size brew = half ingredients amounts. There may be some technical utilisation differences with volumes (I'm unsure) but for your first I don't think they will be significant enough to worry.


----------



## whitegoose

manticle said:


> I'd scale everything down appropriately. 1/2 size brew = half ingredients amounts. There may be some technical utilisation differences with volumes (I'm unsure) but for your first I don't think they will be significant enough to worry.



Would you still pitch a whole packet of dried yeast?


----------



## manticle

Not if it was a full 11.5 - 15 g pack and I was brewing an ale, no. If it was a lager then yes. Unused dried yeast can be kept in the packet, wrapped in glad and kept in the fridge quite successfully for a while.


----------



## whitegoose

manticle said:


> Not if it was a full 11.5 - 15 g pack and I was brewing an ale, no. If it was a lager then yes. Unused dried yeast can be kept in the packet, wrapped in glad and kept in the fridge quite successfully for a while.



Sweet... and as I'm gearing up for my first ever mash using this technique... would you say I need to worry about pH?


----------



## manticle

A brewer more expert than I might give better advice. I've done around 12 full volume AG brews now (maybe more) and only one turned out shite. I have not yet worried about my mash pH. 

Water chemistry etc is something I intend to start exploring at some point so I'm not suggesting it is unnecessary ever- just that keeping it simple at the beginning is a good thing and you can make very tasty beer without concerning yourself about pH. Get your grain brewing processes down pat, then explore how to tweak them I reckon.


----------



## gsmedia

crozdog said:


> Welcome to AHB, and brewing with grain!
> 
> Hope you added a teaspoon of sugar to each long neck! It's normal for your beer to be flat when you bottle. The extra sugar you add to the bottle provides enough food for the yeast left in the beer to carbonate the beer in the bottle.
> 
> In future you might want to leave it for a few more days before bottling as the yeast cleans up after itself; more yeast will drop out leaving a clearer finished product & less chance of producing bottle bombs. That said, if you've got a stable FG over several days, you can bottle it, I prefer to be patient
> 
> Forgot to add:
> You will have some carbonation after a week, but to allow em to gas right up, you're best to leave your newly filled bottles for 3+ weeks before cracking them. This will also allow the beer to settle a bit and mature. The end result is some patience will be rewarded whereas impatience will lead to disappointment. B)



Cheers for the info. Next time I'll be a little more patient and bottle later. Maybe.


----------



## whitegoose

manticle said:


> A brewer more expert than I might give better advice. I've done around 12 full volume AG brews now (maybe more) and only one turned out shite. I have not yet worried about my mash pH.
> 
> Water chemistry etc is something I intend to start exploring at some point so I'm not suggesting it is unnecessary ever- just that keeping it simple at the beginning is a good thing and you can make very tasty beer without concerning yourself about pH. Get your grain brewing processes down pat, then explore how to tweak them I reckon.



Awesome - that's what I thought. Thanks


----------



## mattcarty

manticle said:


> I'd scale everything down appropriately. 1/2 size brew = half ingredients amounts. There may be some technical utilisation differences with volumes (I'm unsure) but for your first I don't think they will be significant enough to worry.



cool thats what i was thinking so thanks for the confirmation

cheers
carty


----------



## jello

Awesome tutorial. Thanks heaps for the time and effort. 

If I wanted to apply this method to a recipe from the DB, could I use the same amount of water for the boil, and then add additional water when transferring to the fermenter?


----------



## MarkBastard

jello said:


> Awesome tutorial. Thanks heaps for the time and effort.
> 
> If I wanted to apply this method to a recipe from the DB, could I use the same amount of water for the boil, and then add additional water when transferring to the fermenter?



You can pretty much follow this guide but probably use more hops, then after you turn the heat off dump a 1.5L tin of liquid malt extract into the pot and let it dissolve. Then when you transfer to the fermenter top up with water to the usual level. This is known as a partial mash.


----------



## jello

So even if I use one of the recipes from the RecipeDB (which I assume already has the quantities of ingredients for a 23l brew), I should then add an additional 1.5L of LME? Isn't that excessive?


----------



## MarkBastard

jello said:


> So even if I use one of the recipes from the RecipeDB (which I assume already has the quantities of ingredients for a 23l brew), I should then add an additional 1.5L of LME? Isn't that excessive?



Sorry if you use all the ingrediants from the full recipe you don't need to add the 1.5L of LME.

But that said there's no way you'll be able to mash the 5 odd kg of grain in a stove top pot anyway, so it's a moot point. If you follow an all grain 23L recipe you'll need a 40L pot and I don't think the best stove will boil that.


----------



## jello

Bugger. Thanks.

Looks like I'm still going to need a bigger pot anyway. I don't think the one I have is 15L. Oh....and a themometer, and a grinder,....and voile. My poor wallet.

Can't wait to try this.


----------



## lespaul

matt carty said:


> hey hey
> 
> inspired by this post i am going to give my first AG a go.
> 
> going to kick off with Dr Smurto's Golden Ale as my mate Lobo did it and i loved it.
> 
> so with recipes how do I adjust a recipe on AHB to only a 9L brew? i am guessing i want to use less grain and hops or do i still use the same amount of hops?
> 
> answers or link to information would be great
> 
> thanks
> 
> carty



this is the Dr S recipe i did on the weekend with BIAB
hope it helps


Min OG: 1.045 Max OG: 1.060 Min IBU: 30 Max IBU: 54 Min Clr: 5 Max Clr: 14 Color in SRM, Lovibond 

*Recipe Specifics* 
Batch Size (L): 10.00 
Wort Size (L): 10.00 
Total Grain (kg): 2.13 
Anticipated OG: 1.047 
Plato: 11.68 
Anticipated SRM: 7.3 
Anticipated IBU: 40.8 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 % 
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes 

*Pre-Boil Amounts* 
Evaporation Rate: 6.00 L 
Per Hour Pre-Boil 
Wort Size: 16.00 L 
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.029 SG 7.41 Plato 

*Grain/Extract/Sugar* _%_ _Amount_ _Name_ _Origin_ _Potential_ _SRM_ 
56.5 1.20 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 2 
18.8 0.40 kg. Weyermann Pale Wheat Germany 1.038 2 
18.8 0.40 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 8 
5.9 0.13 kg. Weyermann Caramunich I Germany 1.036 51 
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

*Hops* _Amount_ _Name_ _Form_ _Alpha_ _IBU_ _Boil Time_ 
10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 10.00 29.9 60 min 
10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Whole 10.00 6.0 10 min 
10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Whole 10.00 5.0 5 min 
10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Whole 10.00 0.0 0 min 

yeast was US-05 (used the whole packet, even though the post just above said i probably shouldnt have)
you'll have to adjust the hops, because it will likely be below 10%AA

hope this helps


----------



## MarkBastard

jello said:


> Bugger. Thanks.
> 
> Looks like I'm still going to need a bigger pot anyway. I don't think the one I have is 15L. Oh....and a themometer, and a grinder,....and voile. My poor wallet.
> 
> Can't wait to try this.



You can get the 19L stainless steel pot from Big W for about $20. Perfect for this.

Nothing wrong with doing partials either. Halve the grain bill and wack in 1.5L of LME at flameout. Tastes close to all grain and all you need is the pot, a thermometer, and $5 worth of voile. (or you can get the large grain bag from craftbrewer which is perfect for this).


----------



## lespaul

jello said:


> Bugger. Thanks.
> 
> Looks like I'm still going to need a bigger pot anyway. I don't think the one I have is 15L. Oh....and a themometer, and a grinder,....and voile. My poor wallet.
> 
> Can't wait to try this.




if you want to do 23lt brews you can look into a legal keg to change into a kettle (heaps of tutorials out there), or buy a large stock pot around 40lt and buy a burner for around $40.

i think the idea of this tutorial is that you are meant to make a smaller batch...increase the learning curve because you get to make more brews, and you dont loose out as much if you stuff it up.


----------



## jello

I'm happy doing smaller batches to start with. 

Checked out the voile today. It's a steal at $7/metre at Spotlight. (Which is in the furniture section of Spotlight by the way.)


----------



## mattcarty

lespaul said:


> this is the Dr S recipe i did on the weekend with BIAB
> hope it helps
> 
> 
> Min OG: 1.045 Max OG: 1.060 Min IBU: 30 Max IBU: 54 Min Clr: 5 Max Clr: 14 Color in SRM, Lovibond
> 
> *Recipe Specifics*
> Batch Size (L): 10.00
> Wort Size (L): 10.00
> Total Grain (kg): 2.13
> Anticipated OG: 1.047
> Plato: 11.68
> Anticipated SRM: 7.3
> Anticipated IBU: 40.8
> Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
> Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes
> 
> *Pre-Boil Amounts*
> Evaporation Rate: 6.00 L
> Per Hour Pre-Boil
> Wort Size: 16.00 L
> Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.029 SG 7.41 Plato
> 
> *Grain/Extract/Sugar* _%_ _Amount_ _Name_ _Origin_ _Potential_ _SRM_
> 56.5 1.20 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 2
> 18.8 0.40 kg. Weyermann Pale Wheat Germany 1.038 2
> 18.8 0.40 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 8
> 5.9 0.13 kg. Weyermann Caramunich I Germany 1.036 51
> Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
> 
> *Hops* _Amount_ _Name_ _Form_ _Alpha_ _IBU_ _Boil Time_
> 10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 10.00 29.9 60 min
> 10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Whole 10.00 6.0 10 min
> 10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Whole 10.00 5.0 5 min
> 10.00 g. Amarillo Gold Whole 10.00 0.0 0 min
> 
> yeast was US-05 (used the whole packet, even though the post just above said i probably shouldnt have)
> you'll have to adjust the hops, because it will likely be below 10%AA
> 
> hope this helps



hey hey

thanks mate that is a help, will give this a go, ordered my grain and hops a couple of days ago, going to spotlight tomorrow morning to battle the 39 degree weather to get the voile, this arvo going to look at the cost of a fridge to upgrade to a 4 keg system, then using my current keg fridge (only a 2 keg setup pffft whats the good of ya!) as a fermenter fridge with a temp mate, going to crack out some easy 20 degree ales then onto lagers! EXCITING! 

also might try a partial mash with the extra 1.5 LME as well in response to the advice from mark bastard.

thanks you all, really appreciate all the help, this post was great, simplified the whole process and made it sound far less daunting to give it a good hard go for myself mmmmmmm beer

oh on a side note my coopers wall mount bottle opener arrived today and i have mounted it snuggly on the back of my new redgum bar. life is good!

cheers
carty


----------



## fergi

yes well i am also hoping to get my grain this week for my first try at a biab matt, also thanks again to nick for posting the get off your arse and try it article for biab and must also thank the bastard for his input into this article
cheers


fergi


----------



## fergi

i am just going to stoke up my burner and pot with 16 litres of water, i am going to bring it to the boil and then simmer it with the lid on for 60 mins, this is to see how much fluid i lose, hoping to be left with 10 litres for my wort,is this a fair indication of what my post boil will be in litres
fergi


----------



## tdh

bum said:


> Wyrt, originally. Ye Olde English.



and used in current German as Wrze.

Then there's Vorlauf, Vorderwrzehopfung, Dunkelweizendoppelbock, Krusen, Lager, Luter, Reinheitsgebot.

You see, if you extend yourselves you'll even learn a second language.

tdh


----------



## WarmBeer

fergi said:


> i am just going to stoke up my burner and pot with 16 litres of water, i am going to bring it to the boil and then simmer it with the lid on for 60 mins, this is to see how much fluid i lose, hoping to be left with 10 litres for my wort,is this a fair indication of what my post boil will be in litres
> fergi


You preferably want your lid off.

Part of the reason we boil for an extended period of time, apart from extraction of bittering compounds from hops, is to evaporate the "precursors" to DMS (which may contribute a wet-cardboard smell to your beer)

At least, that's what I was told...


----------



## manticle

DMS is more commonly described as cooked corn or vegetables but it is why you want the lid off (I have mine half on to reduce a bit of loss and have not tasted cooked corn in any of mine yet).


----------



## fergi

ok noted, will leave lid half off for first brew.
fergi


----------



## fergi

just looking at local bake and brew shop here in gawler, SA, they have stainless steel hand operated marga mills for $129, i wonder how they would work , i know it would be harder and slower than a electric one but also a lot cheaper, has a hopper on top and a collector at the bottom.
fergi


----------



## pokolbinguy

fergi said:


> just looking at local bake and brew shop here in gawler, SA, they have stainless steel hand operated marga mills for $129, i wonder how they would work , i know it would be harder and slower than a electric one but also a lot cheaper, has a hopper on top and a collector at the bottom.
> fergi



They are pretty commonly converted for milling grain.

Craftbrewer sells them Linky

Looks like your LHBS has a pretty reasonable new price.


----------



## Pollux

and with some creativity they can be modded to attach to a bucket lid and a drill.....


----------



## fergi

Pollux said:


> and with some creativity they can be modded to attach to a bucket lid and a drill.....




looks alright that mod pollux,is that the mill that you use and did you mod it yourself.does a drill fit on the end of the standard shaft.
fergi


----------



## Pollux

I simply removed the base plate, used the little plates below that to screw it to the bucket and cut a hole to match in the lid.

The drive is transferred with a 10mm dynabolt, with matching bit on my drill. 

Works a charm.


----------



## Pennywise

That's an awesome idea Pollux, how much speed does the marga handle?


----------



## Pollux

No idea on the exact RPM, I'll make a point to time the next batch of grain I crush.


----------



## tdh

For about $100 you can get a motor from the same manufacturer that bayonets on to the mill.

tdh


----------



## Bribie G

MintSauce said:


> Touch great leader!
> 
> Anyhow, does anyone have a list of simple ales & hops etc which can be brewed with a small list of hops? I see the recipy database as a bit daughtning and everything seems to have a list of different ingredients (I do realise this is how things are made to be different but I'm just after a couple slightly different things from the same base malt with perhaps just some different specialty hops.



Three common styles of beers that newbies tend to start off with - and which are a great 'apprenticeship' are:

*Australian Standard "Quaffing" beers *
Carltonish XXXX-ish styles. As a beginner you don't need to go into the intricacies of lagering, you can make an acceptable 'fake' lager using a yeast such as US-05 and ferment cool at 17 degrees.

Malt: Pale Pilsener (BB or Joe White) - Hops: a single addition of Pride of Ringwood, Cluster or Superpride at the beginning of the boil. Optionally use 300-500g sugar or dex in the fermenter. Yeast: US-05 dried yeast

*UK Bitters*

Malt: Maris Otter, Golden Promise or Halcyon. 5% dark crystal malt. Hops: a bittering addition of Fuggles or Challenger or Target at the beginning of the boil. An aroma addition of Styrian Goldings or East Kent Goldings ten mins before end of boil. Yeast: Nottingham dried yeast, or one of the Wyeast all-round UK yeasts such as Ringwood (not to be confused with the hop of that name) or Whitbread.


*Australian Sparkling Ales (Coopers Style)*

Malt: BB or Joe White Ale malt. 5 to 8% Carared malt. Hops: a single addition of Pride of Ringwood at the beginning of the boil. Yeast: culture your own authentic yeast from a couple of tallies of Coopers Sparkling or Pale Ale.


If you can get a couple of the above brews under your belt then you are off and running. I tend to cringe when an enthusiastic AG brewer announces "my first brew is going to be a wonderful Alt Winterbier dark Prussian Imperial Poodleheffemeister with Belgian yeasts and added licorice and molasses........."  

Keep it simple initially and happy brewing :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: 


bb


----------



## levin_ae92

Reading this makes me want to at least try a partial!! damn i wish the weather wasnt so warm here right now, but ill be on holidays soon and then i'll have no excuse not to give it a try!!

i think i might start with a DSGA partial? how much ale malt would it take to substitute the can of light liquid malt abouts?

thanks NickJD for the article too, found it easy to follow, i honestly get a bit confused just simply reading about all grain brewing it does my head in!!


----------



## MarkBastard

From memory 1.5L of LME could replace about 2kg of grain, depending on a few factors.


----------



## levin_ae92

Thanks Mark,

so i could safely mash 2kg of traditional ale malt and the crystal at the same time? , use this for the hop boil, then add the wheat malt at flameout, chill, top up to 20L and off i go?


----------



## MarkBastard

The regular grain bill on that is...

2.4 kg Weyermann Pilsner 
0.8 kg Weyermann Pale Wheat 
0.8 kg Weyermann Munich I 
0.25 kg Weyermann Caramunich I

To be safe what I'd probably do is have...

0.6kg Weyermann Pilsner
0.8kg Weyermann Pale Wheet
0.8kg Weyermann Munich I
0.25kg Weyermann Caramunich I

And then 1.5L of LME at flameout

But that said I haven't done this recipe and I don't know if because that mini mash only has a relatively small percentage of non-wheat non-speciality malt it will be good enough for the hop boil etc. Someone else will have to tell you that.

There are easier recipes to start a partial mash with IMO. I'd go for an amber ale.


----------



## mintsauce

BribieG said:


> Three common styles of beers that newbies tend to start off with - and which are a great 'apprenticeship' are:
> 
> *Australian Standard "Quaffing" beers *
> 
> *UK Bitters*
> 
> *Australian Sparkling Ales (Coopers Style)*
> 
> If you can get a couple of the above brews under your belt then you are off and running. I tend to cringe when an enthusiastic AG brewer announces "my first brew is going to be a wonderful Alt Winterbier dark Prussian Imperial Poodleheffemeister with Belgian yeasts and added licorice and molasses........."
> 
> Keep it simple initially and happy brewing :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers:
> 
> 
> bb



Thanks for the Advice - was just what I was looking for, just so happens that I love the Coopers style Sparkling Ale so I'll work on those as well as quaffers to keep the boys happy.


----------



## stm

Pollux said:


> I simply removed the base plate, used the little plates below that to screw it to the bucket and cut a hole to match in the lid.
> 
> The drive is transferred with a 10mm dynabolt, with matching bit on my drill.
> 
> Works a charm.



Hi Pollux

Did you reinforce the lid of your bucket/pail with something when you bolted the marga to it, or is it strong enough as is? Thanks!

stm


----------



## Pollux

I used the two plates from the base of the marga, they are the ones with the little rubber feet on them...

While the lid may not be superstrong, my rainwater diverter hopper holds 3kg and it's never collapsed.


----------



## humper_zim

I just put down my first mini BIAB this afternoon. I used a recipe similar to that described in this thread and made it up to 10 litres. I dont think I made any big mistakes, im sure there are plenty of places I could improve, but im not too worried about it at this stage, just getting a feel for it all. 

I hit my mash temp spot on, and only lost 1 degree over the 60 min mash so was pretty happy. According to Beersmith my predicted OG was 1.055, my measured OG was 1.056 so really happy with that. that makes my efficiency a touch over 75%, not bad for my first attempt i think.

Anyways, its in the fermenter at 18 degrees as I type, so hopefully it'll come out good. Unfortunately my camera battery was flat when i took it out to take photos of the brew. I'll take photos of my next one in teh next few weeks. I have everything I need for 3 of these mini brews...

Looking forward to taste the results! I'll let everyone know how it goes

Cheers :icon_cheers: 

mike


----------



## DanFranko

Nick,

just wanted to add my thanks for this tutorial - for a new brewer like myself it has given me the insight i need to have a go at AG brewing!

cheers

Dan

:beerbang:


----------



## Nick JD

DanFranko said:


> Nick,
> 
> just wanted to add my thanks for this tutorial - for a new brewer like myself it has given me the insight i need to have a go at AG brewing!
> 
> cheers
> 
> Dan
> 
> :beerbang:



No worries.


----------



## Nick JD

Since a lot of people want to use this method to make a "full size" brew the size of a Kit I thought I'd try to push some boundaries to show what can be done. 

A few other members have already shown this but I thought I might as well add a little addendum to this thread at this stage, mainly because I had the camera out when doing some mashing today.

So here's the motherlode of ground up malt. There's 3.7kg of base malt, 200g of Carared and 100g of Carapils.







And my 15L pot (15L is the pot _full to the brim_).






Notice there is actually _less_ water in the pot than when using 2kg of malts. This is to make room for the grain. 

Then we add the grain. 






There a bit more room there, so I added a liter of 65 degree water (my coffee kettle has a temperature setting - very handy).






Then the towels go on to keep it snug for an hour.


----------



## Nick JD

Made up some hops in a bag. I'm aiming for roughly 20L in the fermenter, and this pot is going to have some seriously thick, syrupy, sweet liquor in it ... and that's not so good for getting bitterness out of hops. But that's easily solved - you just use a little bit more (roughly half again for this kinda thing). If it's not bitter enough, I'll fix it next time - it'll still taste waaaaay better than a kit beer.

So here's a "fruit salad" of hops. About 7g each (20g) of galaxy, nelson, simcoe and southern cross. They are all highly bitter hops - so not too much is needed. I'm not after an IIPA - just to cut back the sweetness of the malt.






And after an hour here's where the hydrometer (a shitty Big W one that only reads to 1.040) sits in 57 degrees. 1.058 @ 57C is 1.073 in roughly 12 liters.






So when I dilute it to 20L in the fermenter: 

12/20 = 0.6 and 0.6 x 78 is 46.8 (1.047 is about right for a tastybeer). 

So it needs a boil with those hops for about an hour. 






So to sum up - the only real difference here between the initial tutorial are:

1.) Make sure less water is used before the grain is added so there's room for all of it (in 15L pot ~8.5L of water for 4kg of grain).

2.) Wash grain in bucket (sparge) twice. There's more sugarz trapped in the big whack of grain.

3.) Use up to twice the hops to get the same bitterness.

4.) Add 8L of cold water in fermenter before you add the yeast.


----------



## levin_ae92

Nice one Nick, i was thinking if this would be possible myself, this would be a better alternative to partials!


----------



## Nick JD

levin_ae92 said:


> Nice one Nick, i was thinking if this would be possible myself, this would be a better alternative to partials!



Not to mention 1.073 with the hops just coming into their bitterness during the boil is so delicious I think I had about 100ml in spoonfulls. 

Just one more ... just one more ...


----------



## RdeVjun

Yep, you got it NickJD- same equipment, more grain, less water, sparge, more hops, then some dilution= more beer!

I've found it can be bit hit and miss with bittering (lower hops utilisation efficiency >1.050), some software can handle higher- gravity boils, not all, mine doesn't seem to get it quite right, but having a regular 'house ale' I can adjust things as I see fit, but different recipes batch after batch might get frustrating. Measuring SG at each step can give you a handle on just how much sagaz remains if unsparged.

I do this sort of thing regularly, but this caper is probably not for the novice BIABer, but once familiar with the equipment, the sky is the limit! Some top work mate, and with pics too! :beerbang: 

Ps. Be a good lad and Santa might bring you that new hydrometer soon!


----------



## Nick JD

RdeVjun said:


> ...having a regular 'house ale' I can adjust things as I see fit...



Great point. 

Everyone should have their own "house ale". The kind of thing you can refine to become your staple brew - something without too many bells and whistles. 

It's nice to have strange and interesting beer in the cupboard, but sometimes you just want a "normal" beer.

For me that's a 7 EBC, 15-20 IBU malted barley SMASH ale with no flavour/aroma addition. Pretty much what I just did in this example. It's boring, but it's ever so nice on a summer evening while watching the chops burn on the barbie.

And the hydrometer? I like it. It gives me an excuse to brew with guesswork precision. I only use it for testing the mash SG. SHOCK/HORROR! I don't use it for fermenting - if the beer has stopped fizzing and it tastes like beer and not malted cordial ... I bottle it (PET).


----------



## wise1080

could i do this in an urn?


----------



## Cocko

Wiseguy said:


> could i do this in an urn?



BribieG is the man for this one!! Linkathon!


----------



## mintsauce

Gee I thought this thread was going to be allowed to die but since it's not:

I brewed my first around 2-3 weeks ago and kegged it just over a week ago then started drinking at the weekend (got impatient and turned up the regulator for a short while to speed up the carbonating) a f*ck me, I made beer.....from grains & hops.

Thanks for the inspiration Nick - I've done a second of this 'house ale' as you say just to get the procedure down a bit - also moved to a LPG burner in the garage last week to be a bit more of a man (brewing with propane in the garage with the cricket on - priceless) I've got the ingredients for Dr smurtos Golden Ale (As I like the JSGA) then I was going to get a big bag of Pale Ale malt and work through that with the simple suggestions given above (as I like coopers sparkling too)....

All good fun, and again, bloody hell it smelt and tasted like beer without 'that funky homebrew' taste.


----------



## mintsauce

Bugger, the keg's empty - don't last long when they're nice


----------



## Nick JD

MintSauce said:


> Bugger, the keg's empty - don't last long when they're nice



Sweet! Next step ... yeasts!

The real secret to great beer.


----------



## whitegoose

Just used this technique to make up a pilsner:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=571423

Everything went really well and I got pretty good efficiency out of the mash. STOKED!


----------



## RdeVjun

whitegoose said:


> Just used this technique to make up a pilsner:
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=571423
> 
> Everything went really well and I got pretty good efficiency out of the mash. STOKED!


Great stuff whitegoose, congratulations for this success!

I'm still using a variation on this method, it can be modded and tricked up if need be but works great straight out of the box and is cheap as chips- I thoroughly recommend it for anyone wanting to give AG a trial.

:beerbang:


----------



## Bribie G

Scruffy uses the bar-across-the-corner-units method for his AG BIABs, it can be scaled up to full batches.


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

BribieG said:


> Scruffy uses the bar-across-the-corner-units method for his AG BIABs, it can be scaled up to full batches.



Give me a big enough bar and I can brew any sized batch you dream of...


----------



## adam

Thanks muchly Nick. Finally got off my asre and made an AG acording to your instructions.
It is seriously delicious! Who'da thought 2kg of Pilsner grain and 12 grams POR could taste so good. And it does.
Cheers, Adam


----------



## Pete2501

adam said:


> Thanks muchly Nick. Finally got off my asre and made an AG acording to your instructions.
> It is seriously delicious! Who'da thought 2kg of Pilsner grain and 12 grams POR could taste so good. And it does.
> Cheers, Adam



How much beer did this make? I've been looking at recipes that require like 10kg of grain.


----------



## adam

It made 10 litres (or just over a carton). The point of this was to make it as simple as possible with standard equipment found around the home.
Then again, just double everything if you want 20l.


----------



## Pete2501

Yeah, nah that sounds great. I've focused on being able to store enough beer so I can afford to make mistakes along the way. This is perfect for my needs. I won't need to buy any additional pots pans heaters etc.


----------



## MitchDudarko

So going by this, I _should_ be able to do a Dr. Smurto's GA to the full 23L by having all the grain in the 15L pot, and topping with water?


----------



## PistolPatch

Mitch, the method shown in this thread is a quick way to experiment and explore all-grain without going to much expense. It is a way of doing a mini-BIAB. It gives you the joys of all-grain, the simplicity of BIAB but the downside is that it is limited in volume.

You cannot do large grain bills in little kettles without running into problems. The maximum you should think about diluting your sweet liquor (the liquid you have in your kettle at the start of the boil) is accepted as being a maximum of 30%. Don't go over this.

If you want to brew standard size batches then jump to the main BIAB thread here and read the first post _*thoroughly*_ and then download the instructions. There are also several very knowledgeable guys such as ThirstyBoy in that thread that have been doing exactly what is written here for a few years now so it is worth soliciting their advice.

This thread here would be better titled, "How to do a small batch of all-grain simply and easily with stuff in your kitchen." Well, something like that! It's a great idea to have a crack at this and explore all-grain.

Once you have done this, then you need to think, "Should I use this method to make partial full-size batches or move onto full-size all-grain?"

If you decide on the former, then there are many things you can fine-tune at this level, one being controlling and understanding mash temperatures. If you decide on the latter, then the link above should give you a very good place to start.


Pat


----------



## PistolPatch

MitchDudarko said:


> So going by this, I _should_ be able to do a Dr. Smurto's GA to the full 23L by having all the grain in the 15L pot, and topping with water?



If my answer above was too long (as they usually are ) then try this answer..

No you can't.

It is like putting sugar in a cup of coffee. If you throw 5 teaspoons in it might dissolve if you stir it. Throw 20 teaspoons in and it wont even with stirring.

There is a minimum amount of water that needs to "touch," your grain for it to all dissolve or suck the sugars from it. So, ultimately you are limited by your kettle, or in this case, coffee cup!


----------



## RdeVjun

Pete2501 said:


> Yeah, nah that sounds great. I've focused on being able to store enough beer so I can afford to make mistakes along the way. This is perfect for my needs. I won't need to buy any additional pots pans heaters etc.


Yep, this was the attraction for me- trying out AG with no significant expense or shiny equipment. I still use a very similar method almost a year into my AG career. I'm usually quite pleased with the results but for the occasional dud (still drinkable), but doesn't everyone get a disappointment from time to time though?


MitchDudarko said:


> So going by this, I _should_ be able to do a Dr. Smurto's GA to the full 23L by having all the grain in the 15L pot, and topping with water?


Without having tried this, it would probably be a mammoth- scale struggle Mitch. I'd be very surprised if an enthusiastic brewer didn't have a go, fail and then decide a bigger pot or smaller batches are probably easier in the long run. I do know that a 19L pot can do it, but only when all the planets are aligned.

PP is correct, long or short version- accept both or take your pick!


----------



## Synthetase

I recently used this method to do a 21 L batch of coopers pale. Although the starting gravity is not quite as high as a golden, you should still be able to get almost a full size batch using this method. It's a little tricky because your efficiency isn't very good and sparging needs to be done multiple times (hampered by the small size of the pot to store sufficient runnings), but it is do-able. Harness the power of mathematics in order to work out the additional bittering hops you're going to need to add to a ~1.080 boil prior to dilution, etc. and things should work. It's not ideal, but it does function.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

the thing is to not get too hung up on the 23L thing.... why is that how much you need to brew??

You could, given the willpower and a bunch of stuffing about ... perhaps get a 23 batch of a Dr Smurto's out of a 15L pot, but you could almost certainly get an 18L version of same with a lot less trouble and a 15L version pretty easily.

Sure, I know you _want_ 23L, but at the end of the day, why isn't it that you want 46, or 127, or 586?? 23L is just a number - you haven't got the gear to do 127L and wouldn't try... same for 23L really. Just downsize till it becomes more easily doable in the gear you have.

Make 15L, do it easily and simply, have fun and enjoy the 45 stubbies you still get.... its not like it isn't still a fair bit of beer!

TB


----------



## Pete2501

Thirsty Boy said:


> Sure, I know you _want_ 23L, but at the end of the day, why isn't it that you want 46, or 127, or 586?? 23L is just a number - you haven't got the gear to do 127L and wouldn't try... same for 23L really. Just downsize till it becomes more easily doable in the gear you have.
> 
> Make 15L, do it easily and simply, have fun and enjoy the 45 stubbies you still get.... its not like it isn't still a fair bit of beer!
> 
> TB



But I do want larger batch sizes. h34r: My shed (to be) should have one of these. I wouldn't mind doing a smaller batch but I'd perfer not to bottle for various reasons. I have my corny kegs and filling it up half way seems a waste. I got the following from the OP(s). 

_Add cracked grain and hops to a pot with a bag, make sure your water is at X tempreture for X time then cool and pitch the yeast. Bottle or keg as per normal. _

:icon_offtopic: 
The confusing part for me, who is making the transition from kits and bits to AG is the different mashing techniques. There are infusion mashes, step mashes, and decoction mashes. Then there's different setups (HERM, RIM, BIAB, other). Also there's various sparging styles like continuous sparge, fly sparge, batch sparge, parti-gyle (olden days but still) and BIAB or "the tea bag" method as I think of it. 

Actually just writing that made me google several things and I ended upon John Palmers "how to brew". This is one of three beer books on my Christmas list. I think I'll need to read that book to get a lot of my questions answered. Also I need to shut up and and just do it. I find this stuff ridiculously interesting. For the last 6 months I've been reading about beer. I spend almost more time looking at beer in a pub than drinking it. 

Also I've just realised I've gone on a major tangent and will add the little man off topic man. 

Thanks again for the awesome posts. I'm looking forward to learning more.


----------



## MitchDudarko

Thanks for the replies guys, as usual they've been easy to read, and have pointed me in the right direction. 
Firstly, 23L was just what the batch size said on the recipe, and thats why I had originally used that number. If I could do a batch to reach 18L, that would be perfect, as i'm getting 4 kegs from the missus for Christmas. 
Secondly (and lastly), I'm just so eager to get into AG brewing. After tasting MintSauce's AG efforts, I'm extremely reluctant to go back to kits, ore even do partials. I realise this is _usually_ the natural progression for most brewers, but participating in an AG brew at Gordon's has me confident I can do it myself.
Cheers again guys, I really appreciate it 
Mitch

Oh, and BTW... Harnessing the power of mathematics isn't really an option for me... I barely have 2 brain cells to rub together! lol


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Pete2501 said:


> But I do want larger batch sizes. h34r: My shed (to be) should have one of these. I wouldn't mind doing a smaller batch but I'd perfer not to bottle for various reasons. I have my corny kegs and filling it up half way seems a waste. I got the following from the OP(s).



Then of course you can - you just need to buy a big enough pot. Go to the All Grain area, read the Guide to brewing in a Bag thread... or at least the first few pages. And _thats_ how to do it full size or bigger, people are brewing 60L batches this way.

But you don't get to do it for $30 and you don't get to do it in your kitchen on the stove.

Bigger involves... well... bigger and more expensive stuff. But its no harder and no more complex! The same process, just more of it.


----------



## Rodolphe01

Slightly off topic, but I was wondering how much grain people manage to BIAB in a 20l pot? I've managed 3.5kg, this involved mashing it in about 5 litres of water and the rest of the volume (to a total of about 15l) was made up dunk sparging the bag. Not sure what my effiiency was like because I am slack and don't use my hydo


----------



## RdeVjun

Rudi 101 said:


> Slightly off topic, but I was wondering how much grain people manage to BIAB in a 20l pot? I've managed 3.5kg, this involved mashing it in about 5 litres of water and the rest of the volume (to a total of about 15l) was made up dunk sparging the bag. Not sure what my effiiency was like because I am slack and don't use my hydo


Hi Rudi, if that 5 is not a typo and should be 15, I feel perhaps you could use a good deal more at mashing? The more used there the better IMO, I've always aimed for my pot to be full to the brim at mashing.

I put 4kg through last time, I used about 2/3 pot of water to mash and sparged twice to about 22L water used in total. Yes, I know 22L > 19L (my pot volume), but there's grain absorption losses, plus I usually take 3L of 1st runnings for caramelising which reduces to <0.5L. So there's never a point where I have >19L of liquor on hand.

Actually last time was interesting because I overnight mashed it- yielded 14L of 1.086 post boil which is about double the SG of what I was aiming for in the fermenter so about 28L once diluted. Hops utilisation suffers at these high boil SGs, but I've adjusted for it. I can't recommend high gravity boil/ dilution for everyone though.


----------



## Rodolphe01

The 5 is 'about 5', probably closer to 8 actually 

I dunk sparge the bag so figured it would be beneficial to leave as much volume as possible available in my pot for the boil to use as sparging water, i.e. use a minimum for the actual mash.

I guess my concern lies with leaving all that sugary goodness in the bag and having no room left to boil the runnings from sparging.

In the batch where I did 3.5kg, it was only 15l into the fermenter, I ask how much others get away with becasue I could probably get away with more grain as I didn't account for grain absorbtion losses. In that batch, because of the absorbtion loss, I was able to sparge with more water than I thought I would be able to.

I might just try 4.5kg for the next batch and if I have any overflow I can boil it in a second 20l pot as I have 2. Is there a rough ratio that grain absorbs water by? Trial and error sucks


----------



## RdeVjun

Rudi 101 said:


> The 5 is 'about 5', probably closer to 8 actually
> 
> I dunk sparge the bag so figured it would be beneficial to leave as much volume as possible available in my pot for the boil to use as sparging water, i.e. use a minimum for the actual mash.
> 
> I guess my concern lies with leaving all that sugary goodness in the bag and having no room left to boil the runnings from sparging.
> 
> In the batch where I did 3.5kg, it was only 15l into the fermenter, I ask how much others get away with becasue I could probably get away with more grain as I didn't account for grain absorbtion losses. In that batch, because of the absorbtion loss, I was able to sparge with more water than I thought I would be able to.
> 
> I might just try 4.5kg for the next batch and if I have any overflow I can boil it in a second 20l pot as I have 2. Is there a rough ratio that grain absorbs water by? Trial and error sucks


Yep, I can relate to all that Rudi. The mash volume you're using is still very low, I'd increase it by 50%. After the boil, my volumes often end up back where I started, i.e. mash with about 15L, sparge with 6L, then losses to caramelisation, absorbtion and evaporation eat most of that up and so it comes back to 15L, maybe higher if I am generous with the sparge or don't caramelise. Perhaps one other thing you could do is add sparge after some has evaporated too, but I do that usually with a 90 minute boil.
I've been working on about a litre of water absorbed per kilo of grain. See how you go!
:icon_cheers:


----------



## Nick JD

I'm in NZ at the moment, so I can't look at the Blue Book O Brews - everyone's correct about the efficiencies going south when you add too much grain to this technique. I've never been able to get more than 10L of 1.076 (IIRC) - which diluted to 23L is a mid strength beer of about 3-3.5%.

And yes, 10L of beer bubbling away in a 23L fermenter does look seriously sad ... and more importantly doesn't keep that belly satiated. 

My best advice to those trying (or going to try) this method is to go out and buy a 12L fermenting vessel. Keep doing the 25L barrel for your stocks ... do mini AGs as an "aside" project. Much of the benefit of this technique is having a high turnover rate. Your AG skills and recipe development proceeds at roughly 3 times the speed.


----------



## limebouquet

[quote name='O'Henry' post='543643' date='Oct 27 2009, 11:09 PM']Last brew I also used the laundry sink to cool and had a load of washing on as well. I used the spin off water to cool it and just lifted the lid when it was enough water, drained when warm then re added water. Needed hardly any from the tap.[/quote]
Full marks for saving water.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

Guys - if you have multiple 20L pots and you are happy to go to the effort of sparging... then to work out what you can and cant do volume wise, you might be better served reading some of the non-biab threads. Specifically the batch sparging ones.

People who dont BIAB - normally mash at a maximum of 3L for every kg of grain - with the rest of their liquor being sparge liquor. BIAB only mashes at the higher ratio, because it was designed to be a no-sparge technique using one pot and it was a necessary compromise - it happens to work really well, but that doesn't make the high amount of strike water in any way _necessary_.

You can mash sucessfully with down to around 2L for every kg of grain (or even a tiny bit less) and that allows you to fit more grain into your mash tun.. which in your case is 20L. You could nicely fit 6.5-7kg of grain in a 20L pot with a liquor to grist ratio of 2.1:1 - and that will work fine. You would pull your bag leaving behind about 9.5L of wort - and so you would sparge with whatever the difference is between that and your desired pre-boil volume... I would do it in two "batches" of about 9.25-9.5L which means you know each lot will fit everything in your pot, and will give you a pre-boil around 28-29L... which you just do as a split boil in your 2x20L pots..

No dilution required and a full batch of 24L of say 1.069 wort.

Dont get too locked into the BIAB mindset - you guys who are sparging and diluting etc etc, aren't doing BIAB as it was originally designed and you dont have to follow the same rules to make it work. BIAB in its original form was intended to be as simple as possible and use just one pot.... this introduced limitations which you fellas don't have, so you can do it differently.

Like I said... its just batch sparging with a bag instead of a false bottom... all been done before a million times before. Search out the batch sparging info and I think you will find a wealth of knowledge that will help you along nicely.


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## Mayor of Mildura

How funny are these last couple of posts. Here's my story.
I thought i'd give this AG brewing caper a go a couple of weeks ago. After reading through this thread i thought How hard can it be! 
I also thought 10L bah i know boats i'll go a higher gravity and dilute down.
Every thing seemed to be going ok at the start. used beersmith to make the calculations for a small pot etc. 
I was making a wit. 50% pils 45% raw wheat and 5% oats.
But then i worked out that 6kg of grain in a 15l pot with 8l of water made a really really thick porridge ( i bent my coopers spoon). When i lifted the bag out after my 90 minute mash i was left with about 2l of wort in the bottom of the pot and a very slow dribble out the bottom of the bag. So i thought a "dunk sparge" would be in order. But my other pot is only 10l and the bag wouldn't fit. So i had to improvise and quickly cleaned out the nappy bucket and used that. 
After 2 rounds of nappy bucket soaking action i ended up with more than 15l so i had to use 2 pots and do 2 boils. 
To top it off i had a boilover on the stove and set off the fire alarm in the early hours of the morning. SWMBO was particularly happy with me. 
In the end though i ended up with 23L @ 1048.
And i learnt lots and had a ball in the process. 
So the moral of the story is i guess even with limited equipment ( and even more limited knowledge) you can still make beer. 
and that is good.


----------



## goomboogo

mayor of mildura said:


> How funny are these last couple of posts. Here's my story.
> I thought i'd give this AG brewing caper a go a couple of weeks ago. After reading through this thread i thought How hard can it be!
> I also thought 10L bah i know boats i'll go a higher gravity and dilute down.
> Every thing seemed to be going ok at the start. used beersmith to make the calculations for a small pot etc.
> I was making a wit. 50% pils 45% raw wheat and 5% oats.
> But then i worked out that 6kg of grain in a 15l pot with 8l of water made a really really thick porridge ( i bent my coopers spoon). When i lifted the bag out after my 90 minute mash i was left with about 2l of wort in the bottom of the pot and a very slow dribble out the bottom of the bag. So i thought a "dunk sparge" would be in order. But my other pot is only 10l and the bag wouldn't fit. So i had to improvise and quickly cleaned out the nappy bucket and used that.
> After 2 rounds of nappy bucket soaking action i ended up with more than 15l so i had to use 2 pots and do 2 boils.
> To top it off i had a boilover on the stove and set off the fire alarm in the early hours of the morning. SWMBO was particularly happy with me.
> In the end though i ended up with 23L @ 1048.
> And i learnt lots and had a ball in the process.
> So the moral of the story is i guess even with limited equipment ( and even more limited knowledge) you can still make beer.
> and that is good.



How would you describe the colour of your wit. Maybe, 'baby-shit yellow".


----------



## Mayor of Mildura

goomboogo said:


> How would you describe the colour of your wit. Maybe, 'baby-shit yellow".



No not that dark. More like wee. And the aroma I thought it was the chamomile! :blink:


----------



## Yeastie Beastie

Nick JD said:


>




Where can I obtain one of these little puppies? 
Anyone....
I trolled through the sponsors websites to no avail...


----------



## Nick JD

Yeastie Beastie said:


> Where can I obtain one of these little puppies?
> Anyone....
> I trolled through the sponsors websites to no avail...



I think that's from Big W, or KMart. 18L IIRC. Just to be sure - get one that's designed to hold drinking water. The krausen ring dissolves in napisan after a day or you can make a tool to reach in for manual cleaning ... but I'm sold on the napisan technique now.


----------



## Yeastie Beastie

Nick JD said:


> I think that's from Big W, or KMart. 18L IIRC. Just to be sure - get one that's designed to hold drinking water. The krausen ring dissolves in napisan after a day or you can make a tool to reach in for manual cleaning ... but I'm sold on the napisan technique now.




Cheers mate, I ended up stumbling across one in Big W on my trip to the city, SWMBO got it for me with some digi scales I "conveiniently" h34r: stumbled across lol.


----------



## Yeastie Beastie

Darren said:


> Yep its syphon.
> 
> Cleaning the "voile" would be nothing other than a pain in the but *plus it will melt if heated too high*.
> 
> 
> Darren (just offering an alternative)



Just for the record and for others wanting to know - Polyesters are dyed at 130 degrees C so unless you are boiling your wort at that temp you are fine. If you are boiling your wort at that temp there will be more to worry about than Voile.


----------



## joebejeckel

Great thread, I'm going to give it a go, I love the idea of a small quick brew that will be easy to modify if need be, thank you for the effort and the pics . got 5 kg's of grain in the post yezday and am off to the shed, thanks Nick JD


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## Yeastie Beastie

I did this recipe a few weeks ago but with 10g Carafa 2 and 14g Riwaka hops and it is fantastic.

Problem......I want to brew it again tonight but don't have any S04 yeast. As I live in the sticks I will not be able to get the correct yeast for 2-3 weeks.
I have a can of Coopers Real Ale and am thinking of using the yeast from that...What do you think the outcome will be?


----------



## adam

use the coopers yeast YB - better than waiting all that time. All other things being equal the flavour profile will be similar with perhaps a little coopers 'breadiness' and less floculation.

cheers


----------



## SpillsMostOfIt

Yeastie Beastie said:


> I did this recipe a few weeks ago but with 10g Carafa 2 and 14g Riwaka hops and it is fantastic.
> 
> Problem......I want to brew it again tonight but don't have any S04 yeast. As I live in the sticks I will not be able to get the correct yeast for 2-3 weeks.
> I have a can of Coopers Real Ale and am thinking of using the yeast from that...What do you think the outcome will be?



Although it won't happen overnight, I know that the Queensland- and Melbourne- based sponsors of this site will mail you yeast.


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## Yeastie Beastie

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Although it won't happen overnight, I know that the Queensland- and Melbourne- based sponsors of this site will mail you yeast.




I mostly have grain, hops, yeast etc delivered via our sponsors and have NEVER had an issue, they are great. Just really want to do a brew tonight and seeing if this yeast is suitable.
Im not very well informed on the yeast side of things...it is to be my next learning curve...
Also thanks adam for the reply.


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## Nick JD

That coopers yeast will make a great brew. It'll compact much harder on the bottom of the bottles and give off a lots less fruitiness. 

It'll stop when it's run out of sugars like it's hit a brick wall. 

You'd really not want it above 22 C though.

EDIT: Don't be afraid to bottle (sanitized 300ml PET coke bottle) the crap at the bottom next time and use that in your next brew.


----------



## bimbo

Thanks so much for this thread. I have brewed some K&K before and made drinkable but not fantastic beer (I was at uni at the time so most things where drinkable) 
I don't drink much and prefer quality over quantity. Lately I have been drinking JS Golden ale and using DS golden ale recipe i am doing my first AG BIAB tomorrow.


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## jakub76

This thread inspired me to have a crack at All Grain brewing. I already had everything except the Voile and the confidence.

I tried an ambitious Kolsch recipe, 90% Pilsener + a bit of Vienna and Carapils. Tettnanger Hops & US-05 yeast. I wish I had listened to Nick JD and made a simple pale ale.

I followed the instructions on this thread fairly closely. I found the 66 degree sweet-spot on my oven dial so mashing didn't require scorched dunas. My kettle came off the stove and into the oven, lost no temperate at all throughout the hour. I cooled my wort in an ice bath - one load of cold tap water until the water became warm. Then replaced with fresh tap water and some frozen water bottles...got to pitching temp in an hour. 

Unfortunately my fermentation temperature got all messed up with around 7 degrees fluctuation ending up at 26! I tried cold conditioning the bottles in the fridge for two weeks before I was tempted to taste one. Pouring it was promising, a thick white head, beautiful golden colour. The smell was a bit wierd but the taste...how disappointing; sour, powdery and a stale socks/leathery after-taste.

Anyway I persevered and did a traditional mash on a Blonde Ale recipe a couple of weeks later. While my Blonde was fermenting I had my fridge set at 17 degrees so the remaining Kolsch bottles got a week of conditioning at 17. Wow what a difference a week makes! Now the sour and powdery taste is all gone, unfortunately the leathery/staleness persists slightly and now I recognise it as exactly the same aftertaste as Carlton Draught, but overall the beer tastes so much better. Still not a triumph, and probably not really a Kolsch 

I had my reservations but after tonights session I feel BIAB is vindicated...plus it's a great, confidence building bridge between extract/partial and AG brewing. 

Cheers Nick JD, great thread!


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## jakub76

Here's a pic



My First BIAB, and now I reckon it's not too bad.
Though it weighs in at 6.1% (+ bottle priming = 6.6%?) and I have had a couple...hmmm


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## Nick JD

Good to hear it's gone well for you. A lot of people are using it as a stepping stone towards bigger and better gear and that was my real aim here - to get people to dip their toes in and realise it's quite easy. 

Initially, I was going to do the exanmple as a SMaSH brew with only one malt and hops, but I thought adding a couple of spec malts and a different late addition hop are very much part of even the simplest brewing. 

To be honest - most of my brews are simpler than the example brew here. A SMaSH ale with only a 60 minute addition is beer that has nothing to hide behind. Producing great "simple" beers IMHO is harder than fancy ones once you've got the technique (and know your gear inside out) down pat.


----------



## rday

I'm planning on doing my first BIAB this weekend, stepping up from extract brews. One thing I am not real sure about is water volume. I have a 20 l stockpot, so I plan on bumping up the volume to about 15 l. So I mash at 15 l and when I mash out, say I have 12 l left. Do I then top up to 15 for the boil? And after the boil, I'm down to about 13 l, do I top up again?


----------



## bimbo

I was aiming for a 12L batch which was 1/2 of the original recipee.
I started with 14L of water for the mash (2.5kg grain bill). at mash out i think i was down to 11L. added the drippings from the back which was about 500ml so then i just sparged with 2.5L of hot water to bring it back up to 14L for the boil.
after the 60min boil I checked the OG and it was way up but only about 10L of wort. so i added a few litres of boiling water which brought the wort up to the expected OG and also the right volume.

Not sure whether this is the right thing to do and I am sure someone with more experience will have more to say.

In a 20L pot I had 14L of water and 2.5kg grain and i wouldn't try to fit too much more in there. you might get a litre or 2 of water more but will have dificulty stiring the mash without spillage. I also left a little bit of room so that is the mash temp was too hot i could add some cool water to drop the temp a few degrees.

Hope this helps
Cheers
James


----------



## RdeVjun

Nick JD said:


> To be honest - most of my brews are simpler than the example brew here. A SMaSH ale with only a 60 minute addition is beer that has nothing to hide behind. Producing great "simple" beers IMHO is harder than fancy ones once you've got the technique (and know your gear inside out) down pat.


Yeah, good point Nick, 100% base malt batches are a challenge that I'd like to see more brewers take up. Probably getting a bit OT here, but many of mine are just so in a bit of a quest to get more familiar with the malts and see what their capabilities really are and with techniques such as decoction and caramelisation plus by fiddling mash profile, water chemistry and hops, some pretty amazing and diverse flavours can be achieved. Quite a while back I was getting a bit frustrated with spec malts and wasn't quite getting the flavours I thought I should be, but was also overwhelmed by the diverse range available and I figured I would have no chance of exploring them all so I logically started looking at the base malt instead. Plus I was looking initially to emulate TTL which is reputedly 100% GP...
I feel a 100% base malt category (or maybe a couple for ale and lager) in competitions would be very educational, perhaps would get a bit 'secret squirrel' though (no offence Doc). Home- maltsers/ kilners/ roasters might make it interesting.

Getting back on topic, well done guys for having a crack at your first BIABs, this method is cheap but very effective (I'm still using it a year into AGing), keep it simple to begin with as there's no need to tear the fork out of the recipe initially- you'll still be making superb beer! :icon_cheers:


----------



## RdeVjun

rday said:


> I'm planning on doing my first BIAB this weekend, stepping up from extract brews. One thing I am not real sure about is water volume. I have a 20 l stockpot, so I plan on bumping up the volume to about 15 l. So I mash at 15 l and when I mash out, say I have 12 l left. Do I then top up to 15 for the boil? And after the boil, I'm down to about 13 l, do I top up again?


Hi rday, firstly congratulations on taking the AG plunge, it should be very rewarding! B) 

Yep, 3kg of grain in a 19/20L stockpot should give you about 10-12L of first runnings at 1.050, once you boil that it will increase to about 1.060 or maybe higher, so it will need dilution at some point if your recipe calls for an OG lower than that. Some folks achieve this with a dunk sparge/mashout (like bimbo has and there's nothing wrong with that) or you can just dilute it, either at the start of the boil or at the end once it has cooled and before pitching. I'd leave sparging until later on, just stick with the simple BIAB to begin with would be my advice.
The important thing is really the post- boil SG. In your case, I would keep it simple and dilute it post- boil so that you're sure it matches the recipe. However, I'd be measuring the first runnings' SG to give you an idea of mash efficiency, you can decide to dilute it then, but if you miscalculate it then you risk having too weak a wort at the end of the boil.
Here's a rough formula for post- boil dilution (SG of 1.050 entered as 50 etc):
(Actual SG/ Target SG * wort volume) - wort volume = volume of water to add

Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Nick JD

rday said:


> I'm planning on doing my first BIAB this weekend, stepping up from extract brews. One thing I am not real sure about is water volume. I have a 20 l stockpot, so I plan on bumping up the volume to about 15 l. So I mash at 15 l and when I mash out, say I have 12 l left. Do I then top up to 15 for the boil? And after the boil, I'm down to about 13 l, do I top up again?



It's easy to top up at any time - even in the fermenter with cold water. It does no harm and gives you very accurate control of your OG. 

Remember to recalculate your gravities according to temperature! _1.035 @ 65C is something like 1.060..._ hot liquids become thinner.


----------



## rday

Thanks, everyone, for the advice. I am looking forward to this little experiment!


----------



## bimbo

Nick JD said:


> It's easy to top up at any time - even in the fermenter with cold water. It does no harm and gives you very accurate control of your OG.
> 
> Remember to recalculate your gravities according to temperature! _1.035 @ 65C is something like 1.060..._ hot liquids become thinner.



Yep I nearly fell for that one. after lifting the bag out i measured the graviry and it was 1.046. I thought that is about right but I am a bit down on volume (8L and aiming for 12L final volume) then checked the actual value using this link calculator and it worked out to be just over 1.060.

I just checked my brew. was a bit worried that there had been no bubbles in the airlock and was thinking about pitching some more yeast. So i shined a torch through my barrel to see bit flying round all over the place. decided to take a gravity reading and it is already down to about 1.021.
Absolutly stoked - it actually smelled and tasted like beer :lol: Only another week and a half or so till i can bottle  

Once again thats for all the info and confidence to do my first AG
James


----------



## Siborg

I'm gonna give this thread a well deserved *BUMP*. I'm sick of looking for it on the other pages. And I'm trying this as soon as a try a partial to compare with... may even try an AG version of the partial recipe I'm about to do, purely for scientific purposes.


----------



## probablynathan

Thanks for the post Nick JD. I have been looking at moving into AG brewing after having just found this forum. I'm putting together a larger set-up but this post is a great way for me to start a AG brew strait away. I will be giving this a go on the weekend.

Cheers.


----------



## bimbo

Just thought I would do a little bit of an update on my brew i did almost a month ago. I MADE BEER :beer: and it actually tastes pretty darn good even though it has only been in the bottle just shy of 2 weeks (couldn't wait any longer) and fermented at 23-24C instead of 18C.
I think i have the ferment temp sorted and going to do another batch of the same brew this weekend.

Once again a big thanks to all of you for you input and encouragement to give AG a go. To those that havn't tried it and are thinking about giving AG ago just do it. If a mug like me can do it having only brewed a few kit and kilo while back in uni anyone can.

Here is pick of the wort boil




And the final product





Cheers  
James


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## levin_ae92

Well I finally got my grain and hops from Beer Belly today, searching for a pot tomorrow, hopefully find a 30L that wont break the bank, but if not the 19L from BigW will do. My grains are 4kg Joe Whie Trad Ale, 500g Caramunich II and 200g Vienna.

Hops im still sorting out, but thinking 10g simcoe, 10g amarillo for bittering, 10g amarillo and 10g galaxy flavour and 20g galaxy aroma.

Plan 10L of water for mashing, plus 4.7 kg of grain in 19L pot should be snug, then dunk sparging in bucket, then back into pot for boil.

Shall see how it goes, will take lots of pics


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## brewguts

hi all
Nick jd, a big thank you for this thread, apart from the usual thread hi jackers the #279 posts read so far are fantastic. Tis 02.22 hrs and way past my bed time, (first alarm clock goes off in 3 hours). Will be back on the morrow to read the rest

cheers 
al


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## Hatchy

Well I was scared of AG until about an hour ago. I reckon I'll give this a go. I've got a decent pot I reckon I can use & a grain bag a mate gave me. I'll need a small fermenting vessel, I don't really like the idea of the cube in case I get some eager krausen that can't be gotten off without elbowgrease. I need a thermometer as well. I steeped some spec grains on Sunday using guesswork. Probably not best practice.


----------



## Siborg

Hatchy said:


> Well I was scared of AG until about an hour ago. I reckon I'll give this a go. I've got a decent pot I reckon I can use & a grain bag a mate gave me. I'll need a small fermenting vessel, I don't really like the idea of the cube in case I get some eager krausen that can't be gotten off without elbowgrease. I need a thermometer as well. I steeped some spec grains on Sunday using guesswork. Probably not best practice.


Mate, go for it. I did this method, with a different recipe, and made a full 20L batch, making up the difference in sugar with some LDME. Its easy as... just watch for boil-off. I boiled 10-12L (whatever NickJD recommended) and ended up with only 5L of wort. It doesn't matter too much to your gravities, as you top up with water anyways, but it messes with your IBU's and hop utilisation (I think).

I just can't go back to kits now.


----------



## Nick JD

Hatchy said:


> Well I was scared of AG until about an hour ago. I reckon I'll give this a go. I've got a decent pot I reckon I can use & a grain bag a mate gave me. I'll need a small fermenting vessel, I don't really like the idea of the cube in case I get some eager krausen that can't be gotten off without elbowgrease. I need a thermometer as well. I steeped some spec grains on Sunday using guesswork. Probably not best practice.



Make sure the fermenter is "food safe" and you're good to go. I haven't scrubbed a fermenter in ages - I've not seen anything that napisan won't remove in 24 hours without laying a finger on it. Rinse three times with cold water. Easy.

Remember there's not rules to how big a brew must be. You can make one six pack if you want and ferment it in a 3L juice bottle.


----------



## Hatchy

The other thing I was thinking of is to do a 9L batch, stick that in the fermenter, chuck some glad wrap over the top & do the other half of my batch on the hotplate, put that in with the 1st lot & pitch some yeast. I assume there's several reasons this is a bad idea.


----------



## Nick JD

Hatchy said:


> The other thing I was thinking of is to do a 9L batch, stick that in the fermenter, chuck some glad wrap over the top & do the other half of my batch on the hotplate, put that in with the 1st lot & pitch some yeast. I assume there's several reasons this is a bad idea.



I'd add the yeast to the first batch as soon as it's cool enough. Then you can easily add (with no splashing) another half to it while it's fermenting. I've done this before and it works fine - but it's better to buy another fermenter of some sort (like a $10 Bunnings container) and then you can have two different beers and be one beer closer to perfection.


----------



## manticle

Nick JD said:


> I'd add the yeast to the first batch as soon as it's cool enough. Then you can easily add (with no splashing) another half to it while it's fermenting. I've done this before and it works fine - but it's better to buy another fermenter of some sort (like a $10 Bunnings container) and then you can have two different beers and be one beer closer to perfection.



If you add the second batch in before high krausen hits, even splashing shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## PistolPatch

Okay, here is a famous PistolPatch post for you guys (though some of you guys don't know me)...

This thread is popular but it does not mean it is correct. It is correct in a very basic manner and very incorrect in so many others...

Here are some points I would like readers of this thread to be aware of...

1. This thread is an abomination of BIAB which is a method of brewing that many of us older brewers spent countless hours researching, writing on and exploring. People like ThirstyBoy who is one of the few that has done countless mini-BIAB's would find this whole thread quite unbearable - as I do. (The title of the thread was actually plagiarised from an article written by ThirstyBoy.) 

2. The thread does well in the fact that it is encouraging brewers to explore all-grain easily.

3. The thread does very badly in the fact that a lot of the most basic advice is actually totally incorrect.

4. The thread gets worse when myself and others stepped in to offer to help and this offer was ignored by the OP.

5. The advice gets worse again as the thread goes on and the OP gets more confident. Some advice I saw offered tonight is totally inappropriate.

If the readers of this thread want good sound advice then you should ask your questions here. You will get a solid answer there. There are a heap of very experienced mini-BIAB brewers that will help you there. The thread has been quiet for a while now as contributor concentration has been directed elsewhere. If you want accurate information then start posting in that thread. You will be looked after.

Please excuse my post here but from Post #1 some essential information was totally wrong. I did try several times to set it right to no avail. The incorrect information, the continued lack of acknowledgement to those who have worked on BIAB so hard, the willingness of so many brewers to offer good advice but stand still, shell-shocked, by this thread, has forced me to write.

And, busy though I am, this post has been a pleasure to write because in some ways, it says thanks to all the intelligent and experienced BIABrewers who have worked so hard to serve and help other brewers.

This thread could have been really good (as I posted here a few months ago) but I, and others, feel like we will spend years correcting a lot of the advice offered here.

So, my congratulations to brewers who have found this thread inspiring - you are right. My commiserations to those who have or will get stung by some of the advice.

If you are not comfortable asking questions in the thread I linked above, you should feel free to PM me - I _*will*_ get back to you as soon as I can.

Cheers from a very dissapointed,
Pat

P.S. And that, is a PistolPatch post!


----------



## Barley Belly

To me, this topic was started to show people actually how easy it is to AG brew using items they already have at home.

I feel the advice being given by the OP, is knowledge gained from his experience and what works for him.

Just because it may contradict the "normal" or "popular" advice doesn't make it wrong. It works for the OP, so how could that be wrong.

I applaude the OP for thinking outside of the square. If someone didn't think outside the square every now and then, we would be all like sheep. Just because everyone is doing it and have done so after years of testing, doesn't make it right, it is just proven for them.

Beer making or brewing has many different methods, none are right, none are wrong, you just pick the one that works for you.

If you make a mistake, you learn from it.

That's just my opinion (or should I just stuck with the popular opinion).


----------



## Nick JD

PistolPatch said:


> P.S. And that, is a PistolPatch post!



Sometimes it better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an asshole, than to open your mouth and prove it to everyone. So I'll not spew forth the abuse I initially wanted to write.

The real sad part is we can all see that Pat's mental state (at 2:14am) is probably a reflection of current events in his life and not his true feelings because this is what he wrote _in this very thread_ as his first comment:

*"Good to see a simple guide and that it is attracting a lot of interest. Well done! I have found a brewer here to re-write the BIABrewer website. Once done, we'll throw in a section of guides for varying levels of expertise and equipment. A couple of little corrections and this one might find itself there with the author's permission of course.

Donya,
Pat"*

Cheer up, Pat.


----------



## stuart13

PistolPatch said:


> Okay, here is a famous PistolPatch post for you guys (though some of you guys don't know me)...



Faaark.... You didn't have QldKev over for a few jars before dropping this bomb did you? :lol:


----------



## MarkBastard

I guess the way to really know would be if someone sampled Nick's beer and thought it was nice. I'm game.


----------



## Nick JD

Mark^Bastard said:


> I guess the way to really know would be if someone sampled Nick's beer and thought it was nice. I'm game.



In Bottles: Boysenberry Kristallweizen, XXXX Bitter Clone, Southern Cross APA.

Fermenting: Generic PoR Carlton Clone, A Belgian Whatsit Blonde Thingy.

Brewing Next: Another 80:20 Wheat:Rice BSaaz Lager, Caramel & Peach Ale.


----------



## Barley Belly

Nick JD said:


> In Bottles: Boysenberry Kristallweizen, XXXX Bitter Clone, Southern Cross APA.
> 
> Fermenting: Generic PoR Carlton Clone, A Belgian Whatsit Blonde Thingy.
> 
> Brewing Next: Another 80:20 Wheat:Rice BSaaz Lager, Caramel & Peach Ale.



Send a bottle of each my way

And I'll give you some feedback if I live to tell the tale h34r:


----------



## levin_ae92

Wow I had alot of respect for PP until now


----------



## PistolPatch

Yes, I wrote that post _*very*_ badly.

The intention of the thread is very good but some of the advice being offered is very bad and I haven't seen it being corrected. That was my worry and that's all I should have said.

My apologies,
Pat


----------



## levin_ae92

I think it's fair enough to worry about someone brewing techniques, but if someone has a different way of brewing and is happy to share it with people they should be applauded! I do things differently again, taking points from the biab pioneers as well as some of the simplifying techniques of nick and my own style which works for me  I owe both of you alot! I just don't like seeing people think their process is 'better' than someone elses. The point of a hobby is to do it your way and enjoy! 

Thanks Nick and Pat!


----------



## Fents

Possible thread of the year now, keep going boys.


----------



## Siborg

Hi pistol patch. 

Look, I find it good that you want to point out that there is bad advice offered, but could you please specify? I'm only new to the brewing scene, and I have read a lot of " expert" advice on these forums. Part of what has paved my way into some successful brews has been people such as yourself saying that something is wrong. I know then that this is not an agreed and common method, such as not mashing over 70 degrees.

I have used this thread as insipration to move into grains and I did a partial based around these methods. I learnt heaps and tried some methods I have never tried before. Now I know that nickjd is not an expert brewer, but I do know that his methods have made some decent beer, well I take his word for it... He wouldn't still be brewing as much and posting advice if all his brews were infected/ shitouse would he? I believe that at least gives him some credibility so I value his suggestions.
Now I'm not saying not to disagree, but specifying what aspects you disagree on would be far more beneficial to new all grainers than just saying that you disagree.


----------



## Nick JD

PistolPatch said:


> Yes, I wrote that post _*very*_ badly.
> 
> The intention of the thread is very good but some of the advice being offered is very bad and I haven't seen it being corrected. That was my worry and that's all I should have said.
> 
> My apologies,
> Pat



Do yourself a favour, Pat: list what's wrong and _your _corrections. Please keep in mind that my intention was never to provide a tutorial thread on *BIAB *(the Poms did this decades ago BTW), my intention was to do a tutorial on *Stovetop Brewing* - please bear this in mind when you list your corrections. If your corrections offer change that requires equipment not used here please keep them to yourself.

At the very least you'll probably either reinforce this thread or martyr it - so keep in mind that rapacious use of forceful and ego-inflating words such as the ones you've used above won't get anybody any closer to moving to all grain brewing.

And lastly, may I introduce you to a new word that sits nicely right in front of the word, criticism .......... constructive. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Screwtop

Don't see what all the kafuffel is about really. Read Nick JD's disclaimer :lol:




Nick JD said:


> --------------------
> 
> DISCLAIMER: Nick has no idea what he's doing and as such no one should ever listen to him or attempt to repeat his brewing practices


----------



## PistolPatch

Wow! I have just scanned over the whole thread and I think I have made the biggest stuff-up I have ever done here  for a long, long time.

For some reason I was under the impression that the mash temps used in this guide were wrong. I just checked. They aren't. Then I thought that there was a major problem in the yeast management. Just checked that. No major worries there. There were a few other things on my mind but they aren't even relevant to the intention of the thread.

Basically I pretty much got everything important wrong. This is a_ *massive*_ stuff up on my part.

Somehow in my brain I managed to think that serious errors I must have read elsewhere actually came from this guide. What an idiot!

There are only two things I was able to see then and only one is major. First, be careful with putting hydrometers in liquids over 40 degrees. Some will break. Secondly, the cleaning of fermenters mentioned above is a bit dodge. Using Napisan without scrubbing and then following through with some sort of regular acid wash will bite some people on the bum in time.

So, I officially declare my Thursday night post to be totally atrocious.

I'm really very sorry about that. My only poor defence is that I have spent the last few months with _*very*_ little sleep, sometimes none, trying to get some massive projects completed to certain deadlines. I think I must have burned my brain .

Cheers and massive apologies from a very silly Pat.

Edit: Just saw your post above Nick. Hope the above helps to fix my stuff-up.


----------



## bum

Nick JD said:


> If your corrections offer change that requires equipment not used here please keep them to yourself.


 
Ridiculous. Potential converts of this thread should take special note here. This isn't about making good beer. This is about...I don't even know. What is it about, Nick? Pissing people off? Well done - mission accomplished.


----------



## Nick JD

bum said:


> Ridiculous. Potential converts of this thread should take special note here. This isn't about making good beer. This is about...I don't even know. What is it about, Nick? Pissing people off? Well done - mission accomplished.



Bum, if I pissed _*you* _off as well as helping some people learn to make beer from grain then, well, you know I'm just so happy I'm lost for words.   

You get the Easter Bunny with the Pancake on its Head, *Award of the Year*.


----------



## Nick JD

PistolPatch said:


> I'm really very sorry about that. My only poor defence is that I have spent the last few months with _*very*_ little sleep, sometimes none, trying to get some massive projects completed to certain deadlines. I think I must have burned my brain  .



No worries, Pat. Stop working so hard and get some sleep! I hope the projects go well. 

:icon_cheers: Nick.


----------



## Nick JD

PistolPatch said:


> There are only two things I was able to see then and only one is major. First, be careful with putting hydrometers in liquids over 40 degrees. Some will break. Secondly, the cleaning of fermenters mentioned above is a bit dodge. Using Napisan without scrubbing and then following through with some sort of regular acid wash will bite some people on the bum in time.



Good points. 

I always rinse my hydrometer under the hot tap (60C) first to warm it to closer to the liquor temp (70C~ish). Touch wood, I haven't broken a hydrometer this way yet and it's a very, very cheap one. It's probably better to take a sample, cool it to 20C and take a reading - and that way you also won't have to do any conversions for temperature.

Everybody should use some type of no rinse sanitizer. I use boiling water and get away with it (largely because my fermenter is only ever full with either wort, or napisan, or boiling water/steam) - empty fermenters are a sure-fire way to go straight to Hell in a Handbasket  .


----------



## PistolPatch

Donya and thank you Nick.

I'm going to bed *now* .


----------



## Siborg

Isn't it great wehn we all get along :beer:


----------



## zoidbergmerc

I've made a more printer friendly version of this because I wanted to read it while in the kitchen and didn't want to have my laptop near all that steam and liquids.

Big thanks to Nick for making this guide for all us K&Kers who are too scared to move on up to AG. 

View attachment Swap_to_AG_HQ.pdf


----------



## Nick JD

Cheers, zoidbergmerc.

Man, this thread's got some persistence.

I'm about to do a "Full Strength, Full Stovetop Brew" (20L) with the same equipment for those who've done this sort of Mini Stovetop and want to see another version/approach to a full scale stovetop. It's basically high-gravity brewing, which suits Aussie Lagers.

I'll do a Carlton Clone because it's nice and simple, to go along with the other great guides on stovetop AG.


----------



## MarkBastard

Wow didn't see PP's final reply until now.

It takes a big man to admit you're wrong IMO. Well done PP.


----------



## zoidbergmerc

Nick JD said:


> I'm about to do a "Full Strength, Full Stovetop Brew" (20L) with the same equipment for those who've done this sort of Mini Stovetop and want to see another version/approach to a full scale stovetop. It's basically high-gravity brewing, which suits Aussie Lagers.
> 
> I'll do a Carlton Clone because it's nice and simple, to go along with the other great guides on stovetop AG.



Dibs.


----------



## alewifey

zoidbergmerc said:


> I've made a more printer friendly version of this because I wanted to read it while in the kitchen and didn't want to have my laptop near all that steam and liquids.
> 
> Big thanks to Nick for making this guide for all us K&Kers who are too scared to move on up to AG.



Yeah, thanks all you helpful (and wonderfully argumentative) brewers. 
I am off to Spotlight, and really looking forward to some homecrafted stovetop beverages. I am over giving my money to Coopers etc for their kits.


----------



## Digger11

Nick JD said:


> Bum, if I pissed _*you* _off as well as helping some people learn to make beer from grain then, well, you know I'm just so happy I'm lost for words.
> 
> You get the Easter Bunny with the Pancake on its Head, *Award of the Year*.



a month late - but that is the funniest thing I have seen for days.


----------



## bob58

Nick JD said:


> Cheers, zoidbergmerc.
> 
> Man, this thread's got some persistence.
> 
> I'm about to do a "Full Strength, Full Stovetop Brew" (20L) with the same equipment for those who've done this sort of Mini Stovetop and want to see another version/approach to a full scale stovetop. It's basically high-gravity brewing, which suits Aussie Lagers.
> 
> I'll do a Carlton Clone because it's nice and simple, to go along with the other great guides on stovetop AG.



Hi Nick 
where can I find the 20lt verison of of your brew method 
Cheers Bob


----------



## jzani

That's almost enough to make me turn to All Grain. 



Well, I would, but unfortunately I only have a red bucket.


Guess I'll have to stick to Extract for the time being.


----------



## Nick JD

bob58 said:


> Hi Nick
> where can I find the 20lt verison of of your brew method
> Cheers Bob



Here, Bob. It's just down the Beginners/Partials page a little bit at the moment.


----------



## Nick JD

juzzy said:


> Well, I would, but unfortunately I only have a red bucket.



I highly recommend you pop down to Bunnies and rectify this situation. Red buckets are Satan's containers and should never be used for clandestine brewing.


----------



## jzani

Nick JD said:


> I highly recommend you pop down to Bunnies and rectify this situation. Red buckets are Satan's containers and should never be used for clandestine brewing.



Surely Drewcifer would disagree?


----------



## boobiedazzler

I like that this method says a swiss voile square. no need for any sewing if you dont have a seamstress wife or mother. not perfect but it makes the concept that little bit more accessible to Joe Citizen wanting to get into AG without fuss and without too many logistics. 

Well done, good write up Nick


----------



## Digger11

Nick JD said:


> I highly recommend you pop down to Bunnies and rectify this situation. Red buckets are Satan's containers and should never be used for clandestine brewing.



Bunnies with a pancake on its head ????


----------



## barneyb

Does anyone know anywhere in Sydney where you can get decent sized pots for cheap? I've tried the Big W at Macq Park and Warringah Mall but with no luck.

Although the restaurant I used to work for is closing down soon, maybe Ill see if they want to sell their bit pots...


----------



## manticle

Not specifically sure about Sydney but if you have a good asian grocer nearby they may sell large stock pots at a very good price.


----------



## Nick JD

manticle said:


> Not specifically sure about Sydney but if you have a good asian grocer nearby they may sell large stock pots at a very good price.



I think the limit to being able to hold a rolling boil on the bigger electric elements might be about 25L (with ~18L in it). That said, I haven't tried any bigger - you might be able to rolling boil 40L on a stovetop ... those big elements must be a kilowatt or two. Some maths geek could probably calculate how many watts are needed for the volume.

The 19L pots work beautifully if you can find one. Tried KMart?


----------



## barneyb

manticle said:


> Not specifically sure about Sydney but if you have a good asian grocer nearby they may sell large stock pots at a very good price.


Good idea, Ill have a look around. 



Nick JD said:


> I think the limit to being able to hold a rolling boil on the bigger electric elements might be about 25L (with ~18L in it). That said, I haven't tried any bigger - you might be able to rolling boil 40L on a stovetop ... those big elements must be a kilowatt or two. Some maths geek could probably calculate how many watts are needed for the volume.
> 
> The 19L pots work beautifully if you can find one. Tried KMart?


I'm on gas so not I'm terribly worried about that at this point, in fact I can't even get it turned low enough to simmer stuff! 

Everytime I pass a Kmart or Big W pop in to look for stock pots and 100 can coolers. Haven't had any luck so far (although I think I need to head to bunnings for the cooler). Ill continue the search, I'd love to give this a go.


----------



## Digger11

I got mine from asian grocer in Box Hill - like Manticle recommends. About $20 for a 15l pot if I remember. They had bigger Pots as well.


----------



## Florian

I got a 15.1 litre pot from kmart for $19. Worked a treat for a 9l batch.
However, am still on the look out for a bigger pot so I can make larger batches, so will have a look around china town. Good advice, thanks.


----------



## leiothrix

barneyb said:


> Does anyone know anywhere in Sydney where you can get decent sized pots for cheap? I've tried the Big W at Macq Park and Warringah Mall but with no luck.
> 
> Although the restaurant I used to work for is closing down soon, maybe Ill see if they want to sell their bit pots...



Allquip at St Peters. Of course it depends on what you mean by "decent sized" and "cheap"

Rob.


----------



## mkstalen

I got a set of 4 stock pots from "oo" although they were a little cheaper from memory then they are at present.
http://www.oo.com.au/Stainless_Steel_Stock..._-_4_P33151.cfm


----------



## BjornJ

Downloaded and read the guide last night, that is a brilliant document!

It shows in an easy-to-follow way how simple it can be to get started and give it a go without having to buy all kinds of stuff.

It explains in simple terms what to do without focusing overly on the 'why's' and muck around with absolute best practise for this and that, which we mostly argue about anyway :lol: 
And it includes words like bung and hole, plus some very good advice on bucket color I had to learn the hard way..

Great work, will definitely be forwarding this one to friends who think brewing all grain is so much harder than making kit beers,






thanks
Bjorn


----------



## RobboMC

Nick JD said:


> I think the limit to being able to hold a rolling boil on the bigger electric elements might be about 25L (with ~18L in it). That said, I haven't tried any bigger - you might be able to rolling boil 40L on a stovetop ... those big elements must be a kilowatt or two. Some maths geek could probably calculate how many watts are needed for the volume.
> 
> The 19L pots work beautifully if you can find one. Tried KMart?



No need for a maths geek, just trial and error;
stick a big pot on your stove top, fill with 10 litres of water and bring to boil.

Now get your jug and warm 2 more litres of water to about 65 deg C ( mash temp ) and add.

Keep doing this with your jug until the water in the big pot goes off the boil.
don't forget to count how many litres of water you have added.

Yes, you probably should do this with a proper wort and hops to get the EXACT answer,
but are you then going to tip it down the sink? Plain water will give you a pretty good estimate
of when the element limit is.

SAFETY WARNING SAFETY WARNING

HOWEVER, once a flat mate melted the internals out of a cooktop by making soup with a big pot,
electric stovetops may not be rated at 100% for very long. Try and use an element tHat's furthest away
from the control panEl of knobs, the heat coming off your big pot can melt this stuff.


----------



## Florian

Nick JD said:


> The 19L pots work beautifully if you can find one. Tried KMart?



Found a 19L at Big W today for $20, had to search a little bit, they seem to hide them so people buy their more expensive ones.
Also found a nice little digital cooking thermometer which measures accurately to .1 degrees for $22. This will replace the stupid candy thermometer I bought just two weeks ago with a very unprecise 'watch type' indicator.

Am now ready for 20l AGs!


----------



## barneyb

Florian said:


> Found a 19L at Big W today for $20, had to search a little bit, they seem to hide them so people buy their more expensive ones.
> Also found a nice little digital cooking thermometer which measures accurately to .1 degrees for $22. This will replace the stupid candy thermometer I bought just two weeks ago with a very unprecise 'watch type' indicator.
> 
> Am now ready for 20l AGs!


Was the thermometer from Big W too? Looks like I might have to go on a Big W mission this weekend.


----------



## Florian

barneyb said:


> Was the thermometer from Big W too? Looks like I might have to go on a Big W mission this weekend.


yep, all big W. The thermometer was hidden away in a corner too, away from oven thermometer etc.

Florian


----------



## barneyb

Florian said:


> yep, all big W. The thermometer was hidden away in a corner too, away from oven thermometer etc.
> 
> Florian


Awesome, I went back to Warring Mall Big W and found the stock pot. Got the last lid too! 

I also found a digital thermometer for $18 but I think it is a different one to the one you got. It was a Pyrex one but it didn't say anything about being .1 degree accurate, and it only displays whole degrees. Still I tested it in a small pot of boiling water and it hit 100C just as it started a rolling boil so I think it is accurate. 

A successful weekend, hopefully I'll get to do my first AG next weekend.


----------



## Nodrog

what an awesome thread, lots its way in the middle there slightly, but got back, and good on PP for getting it put right as well.

So my first post here after lurking for a while, and after reading this I reckon I will give this AG thing a go, got 2 kits under my belt and really want to _*'make beer'*_ now.

budget is minimal, but time is not, and I really believe in getting a good number of small brews done to learn a bit before going for bigger qties.

I have access to an 8 litre stock pot, so guess I can boil 5-6 litres comfortably. I'm prepared to try this much work for just a small batch to see if it works, so couple of q's:


Will the recipe work ok just scaling it all down?

LHBS sells crushed grains, do they need grinding finer than that for BOIB?
if so, what about using the old fashioned pestle and mortar to crush the grains? 

the 8 litre pot is a prized kitchen accessory of SWMBO, and is one of those 'expensive brands'. 
Can anyone promise me that boiling beer juice won't wreck the pot? 

if yes to the above I reckon I can get AG for less than $10+ingredients, and that's NZ dollars-


----------



## JestersDarts

Can anyone promise me that boiling beer juice won't wreck the pot? 

>>>>>>

G'Day Gordon - 

Yeh pretty sure your pot will be fine - unless its made out of chocolate.


----------



## Nodrog

yeah, thought it was a dumb question after i asked it!
def not chocolate, that bright shiny stuff, so should be ok




JestersDarts said:


> Can anyone promise me that boiling beer juice won't wreck the pot?
> 
> >>>>>>
> 
> G'Day Gordon -
> 
> Yeh pretty sure your pot will be fine - unless its made out of chocolate.


----------



## JestersDarts

Nodrog said:


> yeah, thought it was a dumb question after i asked it!
> def not chocolate, that bright shiny stuff, so should be ok



Nah not a dumb question - Just tell swmbro that if it tarnishes, she'll just have to scrub harder..


----------



## stm

Nodrog said:


> LHBS sells crushed grains, do they need grinding finer than that for BOIB?
> if so, what about using the old fashioned pestle and mortar to crush the grains?



Wouldn't recommend mortar and pestle to crush anythying more than say 200g of grain. Cracked grain from LHBS will be fine - does not have to be crushed finer for BIAB, but BIAB doesn't give you a stuck sparge if the crush happens to be finer than normal. (What is BOIB? Is that a new invention?)


----------



## Nick JD

A pot will tarnish after a few brews ... and napisan doesn't get it off - maybe a dilute acid might. Grab a 19L pot and dirty the crap out of it.

Any recipe can be scaled to any size. The smallest brew I've ever done was ~3L in the "fermenter" - which was a 4L juice container. Pretty easy come bottling ... I just poured some of it into a 2L PET and the rest into a 1.25L PET. 

Just divide all the ingredients and equipment by the same number - including the yeast.


----------



## Nodrog

thanks nick,
I have a healthy respect for those kitchen appliances, comes from being rumbled with 500g of salt peter in a food processor a bit over 20years ago I think. We were dumb, but luckily not dumb enough to put the whole mixture in the processor at once.

So will keep a look out for 20l pot and try to do the job properly shortly after the next paycheck.

BOIB- put that down to a typo...
no doubt will be back once a suitable pot is secured.


----------



## barneyb

For my first BIAB Im going to try 2kg Joe White Export Pilsner, 200g Carapils + hops. 

My questions are:

1. Is there anything wrong with this grain bill?

2. Do I keep the same strike temp as the original post (70C)? What determines strike temp? The amount of grain/water? The type of grain? Or do we always try and keep it around 70C for a 67C mash?


----------



## Nick JD

barneyb said:


> For my first BIAB Im going to try 2kg Joe White Export Pilsner, 200g Carapils + hops.
> 
> My questions are:
> 
> 1. Is there anything wrong with this grain bill?
> 
> 2. Do I keep the same strike temp as the original post (70C)? What determines strike temp? The amount of grain/water? The type of grain? Or do we always try and keep it around 70C for a 67C mash?



1. No.

2. Strike temperature is dependant on the volume of the water in the pot, the weight of the grain you are about to dump in, and the temperature of the grain. Go here and plug into their Strike Temp Calculator these three things ... and the _mash temp_ you want. It does it for you.

Which brings us to mash temperature. The best way to describe this without complicating it is 70C mashes will make a lot of stuff that's thick, unfermentable and sweet ... where as a 62C mash will make stuff that's thin, highly fermentable and dry. Around 65-66 there's a little bit of both happening, so you'll get a nice middle range beer with a bit of body, and a nice amount of dryness and alcohol.

The other thing about mash temperature that's important is the speed the enzymes can break up the long starches into small sugars gets slower the "cooler" the mash. Most of the starches are sliced up into sugars in 20 minutes at 70C; at 62C you want to leave it for an hour and a half at least. All chemical reactions are faster when it's warmer.

Do a google search on the "saccharification rest" for more info.


----------



## donburke

Nick JD said:


> I think the limit to being able to hold a rolling boil on the bigger electric elements might be about 25L (with ~18L in it). That said, I haven't tried any bigger - you might be able to rolling boil 40L on a stovetop ... those big elements must be a kilowatt or two. Some maths geek could probably calculate how many watts are needed for the volume.
> 
> The 19L pots work beautifully if you can find one. Tried KMart?



i have what i consider a decent electric stove and it has no problem boiling 17 litres in the 19 litre big w pots

BUT it would NOT boil 28 litres in a 40 litre pot when I tried 

a gas stove might be a better chance


----------



## Nick JD

donburke said:


> i have what i consider a decent electric stove and it has no problem boiling 17 litres in the 19 litre big w pots
> 
> BUT it would NOT boil 28 litres in a 40 litre pot when I tried
> 
> a gas stove might be a better chance



Good info.


----------



## batemanbrewer

This is a great guide for beginner AG'ers Nick. In one of your first posts you should edit in a link to a recipe so that beginners can see how it matches up.

Once again, great read, wish I'd had this when I started.


----------



## Florian

barneyb said:


> Awesome, I went back to Warring Mall Big W and found the stock pot. Got the last lid too!
> 
> I also found a digital thermometer for $18 but I think it is a different one to the one you got. It was a Pyrex one but it didn't say anything about being .1 degree accurate, and it only displays whole degrees. Still I tested it in a small pot of boiling water and it hit 100C just as it started a rolling boil so I think it is accurate.


Mine's from 'Ekco', what a strange name. It worked a treat though, after I managed to open the battery door thingy.


----------



## Nick JD

batemanbrewer said:


> ...you should edit in a link to a recipe so that beginners can see how it matches up.



Good idea, but the edit button's gone from those really old posts. The recipe used for this example was a better "example" beer than an actual good recipe. I suggest people trying this method would be much better scaling down one of the tried and true recipes like Dr Smurto's Golden Ale. Or go to the RecipeDB and look at any of the 5 star rated recipes that have a lot of posting activity on them.

I threw all those ingredients together on the spur of the moment to showcase dark, caramel and foam spec malts - and hop pellets and flowers, with early and late additions to capture the entire range in one example. In that sense there's much better beers out there! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

After a few years of extract brewing (I gave up the kit pretty quick, but stuck with extra + grain for flavour), I'm going to try this as a partial grain brew (don't have the equipment for AG of the quantity I want).

Fantastic guide though - I think this should be a stick/perm and the lack of jargon in the guide (combined with the conservative use of it in the subsequent posts) has finally attached photo/understanding to concept/jargon. I've read enough guides and books, and this has simplified it, and then I've gone back and used the simplification to get the knowledge better cemented. And I'm not an idiot by any means.

My only question - what about lagers? Here in Bris-vegas, we are having unusually cool weather (and my new house has a cellar), meaning I could actually attempt to ferment outside the fridge (before bottling and sticking them in the fridge). This gives me a window to get a lager going for summer (something that is usually impossible in Qld - as even in winter, some days can be up to 30 degrees).


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I have a 9L pot I know this a 9L mash, so I'd have to drop to say 8L to give headroom (or 7L). How much does that affect efficiency.

The reason I ask is that the 9L pot is a fantastic heavy bottom thing, and would be ideal for a brew otherwise. Notwithstanding the fact that it saves me $20 at big w getting a paper thin pot to do it myself.

Other question (may have been asked) - is a butane cooker (the camping ones, or the ones that japanese restaurants used to keep your food sizzling as it comes to you), with the cans going to be good enough for a 20L pot (should I need to purchase it).

Thanks in advance, this forum is a goldmine.


----------



## barneyb

Did my first AG this weekend using this method. I couldn't believe how easy it was, more time consuming than anything. 

The odd thing was that even though I started with 10L, after the boil I was left with only 5L. I knew that I'd lose some water to the boil, but not half of it! I was able to add 2L to get the OG to 1048, so added another 2.5L with 330g of LDME to get it up to 10L with an OG of 1050. I wonder what happened as I calculated my pre-boil SG as being spot on 1050.

It may have been in my head but I swear I could already taste the difference in the wort compared to my extract brews. I think the analogy of cooking a pasta sauce from a can compared to cooking it from scratch is pretty spot on.

Another convert Nick, I'm already looking forward to the next one. :icon_cheers:


----------



## peterhop

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I have a 9L pot I know this a 9L mash ...
> 
> a butane cooker ...



You loose water many ways: soaks into the grain, as water (liquid) in the bag when you take it out, evaporates when you boil, left in the kettle with the hot break when you remove the wort to the fermenter. More is left with the yeast in the bottom of the fermenter.

I'd say a 9 L pot was too small to be worth the effort. I have a 17 L big W pot, fill it to the max for BIAB and get 7 to 8 L of boiled wort. I make it a bit concentrated and add about 2 L of cold water to the fermenter before the wort to make a bit under 10 L of beer. This size pot is fine for my stove-top (gas).


----------



## batemanbrewer

Nick JD said:


> Good idea, but the edit button's gone from those really old posts. The recipe used for this example was a better "example" beer than an actual good recipe. I suggest people trying this method would be much better scaling down one of the tried and true recipes like Dr Smurto's Golden Ale. Or go to the RecipeDB and look at any of the 5 star rated recipes that have a lot of posting activity on them.
> 
> I threw all those ingredients together on the spur of the moment to showcase dark, caramel and foam spec malts - and hop pellets and flowers, with early and late additions to capture the entire range in one example. In that sense there's much better beers out there! :icon_cheers:



Fair enough, I just thought it'd be a good idea so that beginners could see where the specs in the recipe correlate with what you're doing as you explain it in the thread. Not especially for the particular recipe.


----------



## Nick JD

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I have a 9L pot I know this a 9L mash, so I'd have to drop to say 8L to give headroom (or 7L). How much does that affect efficiency.
> 
> The reason I ask is that the 9L pot is a fantastic heavy bottom thing, and would be ideal for a brew otherwise. Notwithstanding the fact that it saves me $20 at big w getting a paper thin pot to do it myself.
> 
> Other question (may have been asked) - is a butane cooker (the camping ones, or the ones that japanese restaurants used to keep your food sizzling as it comes to you), with the cans going to be good enough for a 20L pot (should I need to purchase it).
> 
> Thanks in advance, this forum is a goldmine.



You could do as small a batch as you want. Everything is scaleable (as long as you don't try to boil in a frypan - you'll end up with liquid extract). The same shaped pot, just smaller is fine.

The paper thin pots are probably better for this type of thing because you don't have to spend much energy heating the actual pot up - just its contents. The towels take care of keeping that heat in. 

You require quite a lot of energy to bring 10L of liquid to the boil - probably more than a camping stove has in it. Electricity is WAY cheaper than LPG, and energy costs for long boil batches can be as much as say, your hops - so it's something to consider. One of the best things about electricity is it doesn't run out on your halfway through a boil and you have to climb the neighbour's fence, tackle their Rottweiler and steal their BBQ bottle.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Nick JD said:


> You could do as small a batch as you want. Everything is scaleable (as long as you don't try to boil in a frypan - you'll end up with liquid extract). The same shaped pot, just smaller is fine.
> 
> The paper thin pots are probably better for this type of thing because you don't have to spend much energy heating the actual pot up - just its contents. The towels take care of keeping that heat in.
> 
> You require quite a lot of energy to bring 10L of liquid to the boil - probably more than a camping stove has in it. Electricity is WAY cheaper than LPG, and energy costs for long boil batches can be as much as say, your hops - so it's something to consider. One of the best things about electricity is it doesn't run out on your halfway through a boil and you have to climb the neighbour's fence, tackle their Rottweiler and steal their BBQ bottle.



Thanks heaps - actually your 20L on the stove post answered the next question. The reason I wanted to use the burner is that the laundry sink is downstair (and downstairs has more room) to cool quickly. But the "ice cube in the wort" trick seems to answer my question about how to cool quickly (I have 3 kids and no time to go back to a brew the next day).

Thanks for both guides.

I've been reading (and thinking about my technique in the partial grain brews I've done for years) - I often get a sieve above my fermenter and run cold water through the grain in the sieve (keep in mind only about a kilo of grain - it is a partial) - would I be able to run cold water through the Swiss Voile (if I hang it above the open fermenter) to extract the max sugaz out?


----------



## peterhop

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> would I be able to run cold water through the Swiss Voile (if I hang it above the open fermenter) to extract the max sugaz out?


This might not be good - if the wort that comes out has an SG of less than 1.010 then this can extract tannins (bitterness) from the grain. Though I'm not sure in the case of cold water. Rinsing like this is called sparging, and usually the water is at around 65 degrees; sparging is what BIAB was meant to avoid. 

I just put the bag into an empty pot and squeeze it a bit to get most of the liquid out (though not much comes out), and spoon this back into the wort (without splashing). When I taste the used grains there is very little sugar left (and less than when I sparged).


----------



## felten

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I've been reading (and thinking about my technique in the partial grain brews I've done for years) - I often get a sieve above my fermenter and run cold water through the grain in the sieve (keep in mind only about a kilo of grain - it is a partial) - would I be able to run cold water through the Swiss Voile (if I hang it above the open fermenter) to extract the max sugaz out?



There are plenty of people that sparge with their BIAB set ups, usually using a 2nd container and some extra boiling/hot water. I'd give you a run down but its not something I have done myself yet. (planning to next time)


----------



## Nodrog

why do you need to avoid splashing? just 'cos its hot and burny? or?



peterhop said:


> This might not be good - if the wort that comes out has an SG of less than 1.010 then this can extract tannins (bitterness) from the grain. Though I'm not sure in the case of cold water. Rinsing like this is called sparging, and usually the water is at around 65 degrees; sparging is what BIAB was meant to avoid.
> 
> I just put the bag into an empty pot and squeeze it a bit to get most of the liquid out (though not much comes out), and spoon this back into the wort (without splashing). When I taste the used grains there is very little sugar left (and less than when I sparged).


----------



## peterhop

Nodrog said:


> why do you need to avoid splashing? just 'cos its hot and burny? or?



Splashing hot wort will absorb some air into the wort, which is said to oxidise the wort (process called hot side aeration or HSA for short) and cause cardboard flavours. John Palmer's online book has a section on this. I don't think splashing a few cups of wort will do much harm, but avoid it anyway. A lot of my brewing techniques are superstitions.

Hey, you are in Auckland too. No need for brew fridges at the moment. What suburb are you ?


----------



## husky

Can someone with beersmith or alike downsize DSGA to a final batch size of say 9-10L? With a run down of how much water to start with pre boil etc. I have quite large beer reserves atm and was going to start small 10L extract brews however I would really like to give this BIAB a crack.
Also if buying a bag or two of grain, what would be the more common ones that would definalty get used up(25kg bags). Basically a couple of common grains would be a good start.


----------



## Nick JD

husky said:


> Can someone with beersmith or alike downsize DSGA to a final batch size of say 9-10L? With a run down of how much water to start with pre boil etc. I have quite large beer reserves atm and was going to start small 10L extract brews however I would really like to give this BIAB a crack.
> Also if buying a bag or two of grain, what would be the more common ones that would definalty get used up(25kg bags). Basically a couple of common grains would be a good start.



I would just buy the brew's ingredients as you need them from one of the site sponsors above (possibly get enough for two batches or something). Get them to crack the grains too, it's free. Treat your first few brews as "experiments" - don't be hard on yourself about getting things perfect first time around, that's not important.

Since the good Doctor's recipe is for a 20L batch, make yours 10L - and _half_ all the ingredients. Easy as. I would forget the sparge this first time around since these small batches don't really gain much from sparging. You'll only have about 2kg of grain in the bag and since you started with 10L of mash water simply lifting the bag out and squeezing it over the pot liberates most of the goodness.

As far as volumes go (assuming you have a 15-19L pot) I would bring roughly 10L of water up to strike temperature, add your bag then grain, and insulate your pot. _The important thing here is that volumes are not really that important - the water is only there for the sugaz to go into at this stage. _

So when you pull the bag out and squeeze it you'll probably end up with, say 8L of malty goodness because water will be left trapped in the grain. Squeeze it again - get all you can out.

Now you'll find that you have 8L of _too strong _wort - probably somthing like 1.055 (DSGA is 1.047 OG) - so add about 4 or 5L of water to make it about 13L (yup, make it even weaker you're about to boil a lot of water off) and bring it to the boil ... add your hops (and set your phone's alarm to beep for the next addition etc). 

If your boil was too hard-out, and you end up with under 10L ... simply add required boiling water at the end, just before you add your 1/4 whirlfloc tablet. It's better to boil too vigorously and add water later than to boil weakly and aim for 10L.

Above all, don't be too concerned with liquid volumes initially - after doing your first brew all the volume calculations will become crystal clear with _your_ set of gear. Write everything down and don't crack a beer until your wort is cooling!


----------



## husky

Appreciate the reply Nick, can the hops additions be donwgraded in a 1:1 ratio as well? I seem to recall it varying to some degree. I suppose it shouldn't matter too much, as the main point of the exercise is replacing the can on maly with fresh sugar from the grain.
With regards to the whirlflock tablet, what exactly is is and what does it do(I will have a search on the forum now anyways). I have only been doing extracts and never come across this yet.
cheers


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

husky said:


> Appreciate the reply Nick, can the hops additions be donwgraded in a 1:1 ratio as well? I seem to recall it varying to some degree. I suppose it shouldn't matter too much, as the main point of the exercise is replacing the can on maly with fresh sugar from the grain.
> With regards to the whirlflock tablet, what exactly is is and what does it do(I will have a search on the forum now anyways). I have only been doing extracts and never come across this yet.
> cheers


I'd like to know too.

Thanks heaps Nick, I keep learning with every post you make on this forum - especially this thread.

As for programs - I found a free (open-source) program called qbrew. I use it on Ubuntu Linux, but there is a windows and mac variant as well. Free, has some good pre-settings in there and gives you calcs for what the result of your brew will be. Just remember to convert it to metric, it defaults as US readings.


----------



## Nick JD

husky said:


> Appreciate the reply Nick, can the hops additions be donwgraded in a 1:1 ratio as well? I seem to recall it varying to some degree. I suppose it shouldn't matter too much, as the main point of the exercise is replacing the can on maly with fresh sugar from the grain.
> With regards to the whirlflock tablet, what exactly is is and what does it do(I will have a search on the forum now anyways). I have only been doing extracts and never come across this yet.
> cheers



There probably are issues with scaling down things, but if there are, they're small, I don't think it'll matter too much. Worry about that stuff later when you are entering your beers in competitions.

Whirlfloc is fishguts (I think). It grabs all the proteins in the boil and pulls them together. You can actually see it happening - it's kinda cool. It looks a little like you've cracked an egg carefully over the pot and just dropped the egg-white in. All these big clumps of protein then fall to the bottom (if you cool slowly in the pot) - or, if you are transfering the wort out you grab a big spoon and stir the pot into a big whirlpool. This makes all the heavier gluggy protein clumps go to the middle of the whirl ... whereas the tap is on the side - so the clumps are left behind. The clumps are called "Hot Break" and are not too tasty.

When the wort cools some other clumps come out. They are the "Cold Break". They are not too bad tasting, but not really wanted either if you can help it.

Because I just leave my pot to cool over night, and pour the whole thing into the fermenter like a beer (leaving the sediment (break material) behind) I get to see both the cold break (looks like soft tofu, and probably is) and the hot break (looks like mashed brains or a retarded monkey's attempt at scrambling eggs).


----------



## husky

Thanks for that, Ill grab some whirlflock while at the LHBS picking up some grains. Would extract brews benefit from whirlflock or are the proteins already removed from commercially available extract?


----------



## Nashmandu

Mark^Bastard said:


> Mate I'd edit that back into your post about mashing, if they're using gas they'll be a bit disappointed when the voile catches on fire hahaha.
> 
> Good guide so far mate.




Pay attention yoy unruley bastard, he actually did tell us too turn the element off..read it again


----------



## barneyb

Nashmandu said:


> Pay attention yoy unruley bastard, he actually did tell us too turn the element off..read it again


"This post has been edited by Nick JD: Oct 27 2009, 07:29 PM"


----------



## Nick JD

Nashmandu said:


> Pay attention yoy unruley bastard, he actually did tell us too turn the element off..read it again



I edited it after he asked me to.


----------



## Nick JD

husky said:


> Would extract brews benefit from whirlflock or are the proteins already removed from commercially available extract?



I think the extract is pretty much just a mash that's been boiled until the DMS has gone ... and then vacuum evaporated (for the liquid extract) or sprayed finely into dry air to crystalise (for the dry extract). Pretty sure they would have removed all the proteins before they vacuum evaporated or sprayed it.

EDIT: My understanding is you want to remove _most_ of the proteins, but not every last drop. Adding whirlfloc to extract brews might affect it in a bad way. Just guessing though.


----------



## husky

Planning to do an AG DSGA over the long weekend, reading the recipe it calls for 78 degrees mash out. Is this the temp of the water used to sparge or do you bring the temp up to 78 after the 60 mins of steeping? (not 100% sure of all the terminology there)


----------



## barneyb

I had the same question, I actually thought that the mash out was the temp of the wort when you'd finished your mash (hint: its not!). 

Ill let ThirstyBoy explain it:


Thirsty Boy said:


> I think that an actual mashout is important for BIAB - ie you raise your temperature after the main mash period is over, up to 74-78C. In my experience this will significantly increase your efficiency and will also help your beers to not be too dry.. which I find is a mild issue with BIAB beers. You put on your heat and stir stir stir while constantly taking temperature readings. I suggest you try to take about 10 minutes to raise your temperature up to 76C - let it rest there for a few minutes and then pull out your bag.


----------



## RdeVjun

I'm not sure about that interpretation barneyb?
There is a bit of confusion unless we know exactly which heating method is being used. My understanding is that if dunk sparge/ mashout takes place as one step by adding hot sparge water, then we need to add some near- boiling water to get the mash to settle at that mashout temperature. However, if directly heating the mash tun/ kettle to mashout, 78C is the target temperature. Either way, the mashout step takes place at 78C.
The amounts of water I use for sparged BIAB are about 4L/kg of grain for mashing and 2L/kg of sparge/ mashout. Seems to work quite well with very respectable efficiencies, I'll also add a pinch of citric acid to the sparge water.

Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:

Edit: Clarity.


----------



## themonkeysback

Nick JD said:


> Whirlfloc is fishguts (I think).



Not fishguts - it is refined irish moss (seaweed)


----------



## MarkBastard

Nashmandu said:


> Pay attention yoy unruley bastard, he actually did tell us too turn the element off..read it again



neck up


----------



## MarkBastard

Guys I wouldn't worry too much about the mash out.

Just do your dunk sparge at mash out temperatures. So heat the dunk sparge water to 78 degrees or whatever, then dump your bag in and make sure you stir it nicely.

From what I understand the mash-out is to stop the mash process and also to thin out some of the sugars so they wash off your grain more easily. It's purely there to add some efficiency.

Your main pot in the mean time is being brought up to the boil, and will get to mash out temps itself on the way up there. So for BIAB it's more about using the correct temperature to 'wash' the grains.

That said, you don't have to do any of this. Keep that in mind. It's optional. You can just squeeze the bag really well. Dunk sparging is just to get some more of those sugars out that's all.

Personally, I used to dunk sparge when doing stove top brews because it's so damn easy. You can use a kettle to make the boiling water and then add some cold water to it to make it the right temperature, and chuck it all in any old kitchen pot. Too easy.

I don't do it anymore with my urn because I can't be bothered. I get in the high 60's efficiency wise with my urn. I used to get about 75% with dunk sparging on the stove top. The difference is a just a small amount of money in terms of grain cost vs your time and effort.


----------



## marksy

RdeVjun said:


> I'm not sure about that interpretation barneyb?
> There is a bit of confusion unless we know exactly which heating method is being used. My understanding is that if dunk sparge/ mashout takes place as one step by adding hot sparge water, then we need to add some near- boiling water to get the mash to settle at that mashout temperature. However, if directly heating the mash tun/ kettle to mashout, 78C is the target temperature. Either way, the mashout step takes place at 78C.
> The amounts of water I use for sparged BIAB are about 4L/kg of grain for mashing and 2L/kg of sparge/ mashout. Seems to work quite well with very respectable efficiencies, I'll also add a pinch of citric acid to the sparge water.
> 
> Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:
> 
> Edit: Clarity.



How much citric acid do you add to the sparge water? This is to lower the pH level of the water yeah?


----------



## Thirsty Boy

People aren't reading what I write carefully enough - When I talk about mash out (for BIAB) I always talk about stirring constantly and raising to the mash out temperature over a period of time by turning on your heat source - I certainly did in the post to which Barneyb refers.

The stirring and raising slowly to 76-78 is an integral part. It has to do with final gelatinisation and dextrinisation of starches.

Certainly simply getting the mash up to 76-78 - even if you do it instantly via an infusion (or by dunking) - is going to be a bit better than just pulling the bag out at your main mash temp... but the significant difference will come with the _stirred ramp_. Better efficiency, a slight improvement in body and a mild chance of improvement in clarity.

You can still sparge after that (if you must) - but if you are going to bother with raising to a mashout... _stir it up_ to a mash out. Otherwise save yourself the effort.


----------



## BjornJ

TB,
thanks for clearing that up.

I BIAB and always do a mash-out by turning the element in my 40 litre urn back on.
I then stir once or twice not to burn anything during the 15 min it takes to get to 76-78 degrees, then cover it again and leave for 15 mins.
( I have a steel colander over the element)

I wasn't aware of that I should stir while heating, but will do that from now on.

Is it right to then leave it at the mash-out temp for 15 mins before removing the bag or can I remove it straight away when hitting this temp?


(I also sparge by placing the grain bag in a small 15 litre fermenter and folding the bag out over the fermenter top. Then heating water in the tea kettle to 76-78 degrees and pouring this water over the grains. I do 3-4 tea kettles this way, draining wort from the fermenter tap and pouring into the urn before starting the boil. This way I get a bit more volume and gravity points in the kettle and stop sparging *well* before the wort gravity hits 1.010)

thanks
Bjorn


----------



## Thirsty Boy

BjornJ said:


> TB,
> thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> I BIAB and always do a mash-out by turning the element in my 40 litre urn back on.
> I then stir once or twice not to burn anything during the 15 min it takes to get to 76-78 degrees, then cover it again and leave for 15 mins.
> ( I have a steel colander over the element)
> 
> I wasn't aware of that I should stir while heating, but will do that from now on.
> 
> Is it right to then leave it at the mash-out temp for 15 mins before removing the bag or can I remove it straight away when hitting this temp?
> 
> 
> (I also sparge by placing the grain bag in a small 15 litre fermenter and folding the bag out over the fermenter top. Then heating water in the tea kettle to 76-78 degrees and pouring this water over the grains. I do 3-4 tea kettles this way, draining wort from the fermenter tap and pouring into the urn before starting the boil. This way I get a bit more volume and gravity points in the kettle and stop sparging *well* before the wort gravity hits 1.010)
> 
> thanks
> Bjorn



If you don't stir constantly, then yes, I would let it rest for a little while (but then again I would never not stir constantly while adding direct heat) - But if you stir while you are heating the mash - then I don't think you need to worry about resting it at the end - just pull the bag. I don't even turn off the heat and pause... just gather up the bag and yoink... now you are raising your kettle wort to the boil.

If you insist on sparging - then as far as I am concerned, just pouring the water over the grain... qualifies as the "easiest" way to do it.. & has no other merit. If pouring a stream of water onto a pile of grain was an effective way to sparge... then a hell of a lot of people have wasted a hell of a lot of time designing complicated expensive mash tuns, lauter tuns and mash filters. Its not. Oh it'll rinse _some_ sugar out.. but if you are going to do it, do it properly.

Get your grains _submerged_ in sparge water, use a decent _amount_ of sparge water (_more_ than 1L pr kg of grist), stir the bloody stuff to release the sugars and dissolve them in the liquid. Use the fact that you have a bag to your _advantage_, rather than using the bag as a poor substitute for a false bottom.

Or just don't sparge at all - there simply is no need to sparge a BIAB in most cases.

Will all your water and grain fit in the pot?? If your answer to that is no... then fair enough, a separate sparge is a solution to the problem -- but if your answer is yes - then why? Why are you doing it? What is it that's making you go to the extra effort and trouble? Presumably you were attracted to BIAB in the first place because it didn't involve lots of different steps, and multiple bits of equipment - why would you then, without need, add back the very things who's lack is what makes BIAB sensible and attractive?

It's never made very much sense to me

Edit: This rant is somewhat out of place in this thread. In Nick's stovetop method, especially where you might be brewing at higher gravity - sparging probably _is_ necessary. But if you have moved on to full size BIAB brewing off the stove - the ball game changes significantly.


----------



## Nick JD

What's all these "big words" mean? We needs to see more words like "bung" and "hole" and less words like, "dextrinizellygelitinspargeation". :chug: Teach them how to make beer, Master Sensei, the task is to _reduce _their brain cells.


----------



## RdeVjun

marksy said:


> How much citric acid do you add to the sparge water? This is to lower the pH level of the water yeah?


Just a pinch! Honestly, it isn't much at all and I don't weigh it, say 1/8 tsp in 10L, just to make sure it is acidic. Our town water is quite variable (neutral to alkaline*), I don't always use town water but just to be sure it isn't alkaline I'll put the pinch of citric acid in. So, yes, to lower the pH of the sparge water just slightly.

* pH 7.2 to 7.7, Alkalinity 75mg/L as CaCO3. Source, but it is mixed with bore water post- treatment.


----------



## prestonpaul

I have been lurking here for a while and have just found this thread. I have only just started home brewing and have done a couple of fresh wert kits and currently have a ginger beer in the fermenter. I have found the fresh wert kits good but expensive (at least have some nice 17L cubes to use as small fermenters  ) and leave me with a lot of beer to get through if I don't like the end result  

Would it be unreasonable for someone with little experience to have a go at an all grain brew using this technique? I've read through the tutorial a couple of times and it dosn't seem to too dificult. I have already bought some swiss voile so just need a big pot and a thermometer so set up costs aren't too huge.

I would like to have a go at making a Porter using this recipe from the DB but have had to change a few of the malts due to availability from my LHBS. I downloaded Beersmith today and came up with this:

1800.00 gm Joe White Traditional Ale Malt (6.0 EBC)​160.00 gm Joe White Chocolate Malt (700.0 EBC)​80.00 gm Bairds Brown Malt (120.0 EBC)​80.00 gm Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC)​60.00 gm Bairds Dark Crystal Malt (240.0 EBC)​40.00 gm Carafa II (811.6 EBC)​10.00 gm Target [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 26.5 IBU​4.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (10 min) Hops 1.7 IBU​1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale​​*Est Original Gravity:* 1.045 SG

_*Est Final Gravity:*_ 1.011 SG​*Estimated Alcohol by Vol*_*:*_ 4.42 %​_*Bitterness:*_ 28.2 IBU​Now bearing in mind the above is based on a 9L batch size, this is the first time I have done any thing like this, and have never used Beersmith before how does that look? Any changes I should make or suggestions?

It might be a week or two before I actually get round to doing this but Ill report back and let you know how I go.

Paul.


----------



## RdeVjun

prestonpaul said:


> Would it be unreasonable for someone with little experience to have a go at an all grain brew using this technique?


No, not unreasonable at all- BIAB is pretty simple, if you've got two arms, two legs and a heartbeat, then I'm pretty sure it will work with ease! There's a few other guides about the place too, this one is for stovetop BIAB, but also consider the urn/ electric one and of course other interwebs resources.



prestonpaul said:


> I've read through the tutorial a couple of times and it dosn't seem to too dificult. I have already bought some swiss voile so just need a big pot and a thermometer so set up costs aren't too huge.


My advice is to get as big a stockpot as you can, the big double ewe 19L cheap stainless number is probably quite OK for that size recipe, but bigger (30L or more) would be even better*, which would mean you can do no- sparge, full- sized (23L) BIAB batches. Same with the thermometer- spend as much as you can on a good one.

Those FWK cubes will be handy, and as you're already aware you can use them as fermenters.

The recipe looks all right at a glance, perhaps maybe more oats though? Dunno for sure though, others may know more about using them or the recipe.

* Well, if truth be known I produced 16L of 1.086 in one of those 19 pots yesterday, with post- boil dilution at pitching that will be 86/50*16= about 25L of ESB in the fermenter plus 2.5L of trub losses (kettle- chilled). These numbers are routine for me. But that wasn't part of your question...

Edit: Clarity.


----------



## MarkBastard

I did another batch yesterday in my 40L Urn and can say if you have the money to buy an urn, it's a great way to brew. It's actually easier than the stove top. Beginners, don't think that you need to use the stove top as a form of training wheels. It's a good place to start but isn't mandatory. The only thing it really has going for it is lower start up costs.


----------



## Nodrog

As someone who did 3 kits and then tried a small BIAB brew with minimum setup costs:
Voile $10
17l stockpot $25
Gas Burner $15
Prices NZD

Just do it. it really is easy, although I've never done extracts or anything, I'm not really sure why people would bother, from what I've read its no easier than a small BIAB brew.

If I was doing it again I'd buy a bigger stockpot, but to go from 17L to anything bigger would have cost $80 or more.
my first brew is still in the FV, 6 days now, has got from 1050 to 1016 and had to try a bit last night, oh my F%^#cking word it tastes marvellous!


----------



## MarkBastard

Nodrog said:


> although I've never done extracts or anything, I'm not really sure why people would bother, from what I've read its no easier than a small BIAB brew.



With extracts you typically only steep grains instead of mashing them. This is a fair bit easier in terms of effort and skill level as less can go wrong. You also will be typically steeping about a tenth of the grain bill you would have been mashing!

You can also do a quite small boil with a smaller pot, and you can boil for less time depending on hop additions.


----------



## husky

There was no swiss voile available at spotlight so I got snow voile. Its 100% poly which from reading here is the main concern? Still has very fine holes so it should do the trick.
Had a look on ebay and there is swiss voile but its 100% cotton this would be no good?


----------



## Bribie G

This is such a simple idea that I suspect I may be missing something here, or maybe it's been discussed but I haven't followed this thread too closely.... 

Doing BIAB in a 40L urn ( I realise this is a bit off topic as this thread is discussing generally smaller batches, but anyhow....)

Mash with 10 litres less of initial liquor - thicker mash
At end of mash, tip a stockie with 10 litres of very hot liquor into the mash to bring it up to mid - late 70s
Stir - or pump with the paint agitator tool - like buggery
Let it sit for a wee while
Hoist Bag

In fact I'll do that with my Aussie SMASH I'm doing this afternoon and see how the temp control goes and report.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

BribieG said:


> This is such a simple idea that I suspect I may be missing something here, or maybe it's been discussed but I haven't followed this thread too closely....
> 
> Doing BIAB in a 40L urn ( I realise this is a bit off topic as this thread is discussing generally smaller batches, but anyhow....)
> 
> Mash with 10 litres less of initial liquor - thicker mash
> At end of mash, tip a stockie with 10 litres of very hot liquor into the mash to bring it up to mid - late 70s
> Stir - or pump with the paint agitator tool - like buggery
> Let it sit for a wee while
> Hoist Bag
> 
> In fact I'll do that with my Aussie SMASH I'm doing this afternoon and see how the temp control goes and report.



Course it'll work Bribie, just exactly like a non-biab brew with a Mashout infusion - but what's the purpose of wanting to do it?


----------



## prestonpaul

Thanks for the encouragement, Ill give it a go next week. I am keen to get an urn and really get in to BIAB but the cost is a bit prohibitive at the moment. For $20.00 I can get a 19L stock pot and do a few small batches to get my head around the whole process before I spend up big. The other reason I like the small batch idea is I am currently making beer faster than I can drink it and my wife keeps asking what I am going to do with it all  This way I can produce a few different styles fairly quickly and not have huge amounts of beer I have to stash somewhere.

Thanks again.

Paul.


----------



## Bribie G

Thirsty Boy said:


> Course it'll work Bribie, just exactly like a non-biab brew with a Mashout infusion - but what's the purpose of wanting to do it?



Just to finish off any gelatinisation and dextrin formation etc as you said. Also to make the wort less sticky and get a bit more out. Or did I read your analysis wrong?


----------



## BjornJ

Thirsty Boy said:


> ...
> 
> If you insist on sparging - then as far as I am concerned, just pouring the water over the grain... qualifies as the "easiest" way to do it.. & has no other merit. If pouring a stream of water onto a pile of grain was an effective way to sparge... then a hell of a lot of people have wasted a hell of a lot of time designing complicated expensive mash tuns, lauter tuns and mash filters. Its not. Oh it'll rinse _some_ sugar out.. but if you are going to do it, do it properly.
> 
> Get your grains _submerged_ in sparge water, use a decent _amount_ of sparge water (_more_ than 1L pr kg of grist), stir the bloody stuff to release the sugars and dissolve them in the liquid. Use the fact that you have a bag to your _advantage_, rather than using the bag as a poor substitute for a false bottom.
> 
> Or just don't sparge at all - there simply is no need to sparge a BIAB in most cases.
> 
> Will all your water and grain fit in the pot?? If your answer to that is no... then fair enough, a separate sparge is a solution to the problem -- but if your answer is yes - then why? Why are you doing it? What is it that's making you go to the extra effort and trouble? Presumably you were attracted to BIAB in the first place because it didn't involve lots of different steps, and multiple bits of equipment - why would you then, without need, add back the very things who's lack is what makes BIAB sensible and attractive?
> 
> It's never made very much sense to me
> 
> ..




I am not a brewer, and truly understand that you know more about this than I, ThirstyBoy.

But I choose to believe there is a place for sparging when BIAB'ing.

I mash in about 4-5 litres/kg of grain.
I then sparge with at least 3 or 4 "tea kettle volumes" of 1.8 litres of water (so say 5 to 8 litres of water for 4-5 kg of grains).
I get sugar out of the grains in the form of wort rather than just throwing the grains out, I have the grains submerged in water for several minutes and of course stir before tapping the wort out through the tap of the fermenter.

Maybe I could have achieved the same mashing full-volume, but it seems to make sense to me to mash with water to grist ratios as mentioned by Palmer (link), BYO.com (link) rather than mashing in full volume.
It also (at least to me) seems to make sense to sparge/rinse the grains with more hot water after pulling the bag in order to increase the amount of sugar extracted rather than just ditching it. I don't squeeze and I don't do it excessively but still sparge, though  

So I would think there is value in putting hot water on the grain bag one way or another, the method probably only decides how much more extract is extracted?

And after all, most of the fun here is fiddling with a new process to make the production of beer more brew-like and less clean-sanitise-mix-with-water-then-clean-again :lol: 
That's why we like to add all these steps like finings, cold conditioning, yeast starters, whirlpooling, etc. To keep adding new tricks and techniques to our brewing. That in itself may make sparging a valuable process for us poor BIAB'ers as well, even if it had no "real" merit.

Sorry for going completely off-topic here Nick, guess I should have asked this question in a new thread.


thanks
Bjorn


----------



## Nick JD

BjornJ said:


> Sorry for going completely off-topic here Nick, guess I should have asked this question in a new thread.



It's not "my" thread, Bjorn! It's a bit like a bushfire, I'm just the dickhead who chucked a ciggy butt - now it's everyone's. :icon_cheers:


----------



## Thirsty Boy

BjornJ said:


> I am not a brewer, and truly understand that you know more about this than I, ThirstyBoy.
> 
> But I choose to believe there is a place for sparging when BIAB'ing.
> 
> I mash in about 4-5 litres/kg of grain.
> I then sparge with at least 3 or 4 "tea kettle volumes" of 1.8 litres of water (so say 5 to 8 litres of water for 4-5 kg of grains).
> I get sugar out of the grains in the form of wort rather than just throwing the grains out, I have the grains submerged in water for several minutes and of course stir before tapping the wort out through the tap of the fermenter.
> 
> Maybe I could have achieved the same mashing full-volume, but it seems to make sense to me to mash with water to grist ratios as mentioned by Palmer (link), BYO.com (link) rather than mashing in full volume.
> It also (at least to me) seems to make sense to sparge/rinse the grains with more hot water after pulling the bag in order to increase the amount of sugar extracted rather than just ditching it. I don't squeeze and I don't do it excessively but still sparge, though
> 
> So I would think there is value in putting hot water on the grain bag one way or another, the method probably only decides how much more extract is extracted?
> 
> And after all, most of the fun here is fiddling with a new process to make the production of beer more brew-like and less clean-sanitise-mix-with-water-then-clean-again :lol:
> That's why we like to add all these steps like finings, cold conditioning, yeast starters, whirlpooling, etc. To keep adding new tricks and techniques to our brewing. That in itself may make sparging a valuable process for us poor BIAB'ers as well, even if it had no "real" merit.
> 
> Sorry for going completely off-topic here Nick, guess I should have asked this question in a new thread.
> 
> 
> thanks
> Bjorn



You have hit on the _only_ decent reason to sparge a BIAB brew... because _you want to_. This is a hobby, so "because I want to" is the most important reason of all.

And - I mis-understood your sparging method in your previous post. From what you say here, you are essentially dunk sparging, and if you're going to sparge a BIAB. That's the way to do it.

As for mashing at lower rather higher L:G ratios and the relative merits thereof .. well, there has been a hell of a lot written about that in the primary "How to BIAB" thread - I'll let you look it up if you care to. Essentially its a non-issue. Higher L:G ratios wont hurt your beer in any way. Besides - at the L:G ratio you are using anyway... you are _already_ well and truly into the territory that would be defined by those articles as "too high"

I don't quite understand the drive to BIAB and sparge. BIAB is a method designed from scratch to be no-sparge, to need only one pot, one heat source and have the simplest possible methodology... if you actually want to sparge, and don't mind using another heat source and another pot or kettle, and use a more complicated process... then there are perfectly good brewing methods that are _designed for that_ - why not use them? They're better at it.

Still - like I said - hobby, so if you want to tack unnecessary bits onto a process, why the hell not? If you _want_ to sparge a BIAB.... well if you dunk sparge then I cant see that it could hurt your beer in any significant way. I'm not even arguing that you _shouldn't_ dunk sparge a BIAB, just that (beyond a few points of efficiency) there is no reason that you _should_.

I just want to make it plain (especially in this thread where there are quite a few brewers transitioning into AG via stovetop BIAB and who might not quite have a full handle on things yet) that if you move to full size BIAB brewing, or if you do small batches that are "proportionally" full size ....... Then *there is no need to sparge a BIAB brew.* So you can just leave it out of your plans and only stick it in later on if you develop an unhealthy urge to make your life more complicated than it needs to be.

I'm sorry to bang on about this in this thread - but I keep reading questions from potential BIAB brewers that are about sparging, wondering how to do it? wondering how they are going to manage it on their stove? or with their set-up? what sized other pot they'll need? should they dunk sparge or pour the water over the top? do they need to stir when they sparge or only before they pull the bag? - Not quite understanding how it works, wondering if they'll be able to get it right, thinking it all sounds great but perhaps a bit too hard..... hesitating to make the jump to AG because of those sorts of things. 

The fact that they are thinking this about BIAB really really irks me - because that is exactly the stuff that BIAB was _designed to get rid of_ - and which it does get rid of very effectively. Unless you decide to bugger about with it.

This thread, although I know it is in and of itself a thread that people have found very useful, is one of several threads that have managed to muddy the previously quite clear waters of the BIAB pool - so every now and again, when I think that the murkiness is getting a bit to impenetrable - I plan to jump up on my soapbox, have a rant, point the way back towards the shining light of the one true path.... then bugger off and let you people keep worshipping at your false idols (or paddling about in the muck... choose the one of my mixed metaphors that pleases you most)

So there   

Thirsty


----------



## prestonpaul

> I just want to make it plain (especially in this thread where there are quite a few brewers transitioning into AG via stovetop BIAB and who might not quite have a full handle on things yet) that if you move to full size BIAB brewing, or if you do small batches that are "proportionally" full size ....... Then there is no need to sparge a BIAB brew. So you can just leave it out of your plans and only stick it in later on if you develop an unhealthy urge to make your life more complicated than it needs to be.






So if understand you correctly (as one of those transitioning brewers) there is no need to do the sparge with the liter of water in Nick JD's procedure at the start of this thread? just give the bag a good squeeze and leave it at that?

Paul.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

fundamentally - yes that's right.

Nick is using it as a technique to squeeze a little more volume (and a few points of efficiency) out of a very small brew - as such it makes perfect sense. But the brew would work just as well without the sparge, it would just be a smaller batch. Or if the pot was 1L bigger.. put the extra litre in at the start and the sparge isn't needed.

On the stovetop the amount of effort is trivial.. you might as well sparge and get the extra volume - but you look at what Bjorn was describing for his technique. Transferring the bag, using (and having to clean) a different vessel, boiling 3-4 kettles of water, stirring, transferring the wort back to the kettle -- none of it all that hard, none of it "wrong" but equally, none of it _needed_.

Btw - if it seems I'm having a go at Bjorn.. I'm not, I've had one of his beers recently and if his technique results in that quality of beer, then it would be hard to say anything about it was a mistake.


----------



## Nick JD

Yeah - the only reason I did a "sparge" in this tutorial was that when the juices are dripping and being squeezed into the _green_ bucket, it takes very little effort to bung a liter or so into the emptied bucket and re-squeeze the dunked/poured-over bag. But what comes out is not very sweet at all if you've squeezed well.

Myself, I don't even bother sparging with 3kg of grain and the 19L pot ... but I do squeeze like buggery.

Financially, 10% more "efficiency" (amount of sugaz you get out of the grain weight) is worth about 50c. Meh - I'm not a Brewery. 

Sparge if you want. Don't sparge if you want. Above all, say "sparge" ten times in a row and listen as it loses all meaning.


----------



## Maheel

well man 'ly beer brewers i would like to draw your attention to page 12 of the spotlight catalogue :huh: 

i also checked on line but could only find "cotton" voile so am off to stoplight to get some.....

40% off for another week or so, swiss voile $4.19 per meter (bottom right page 12)

lol there may be a rush of men heading to spotlight this week.......



http://www.spotlight.com.au/catalogues/stocktake-sale?page=7


----------



## PistolPatch

Maheel said:


> well man 'ly beer brewers i would like to draw your attention to page 12 of the spotlight catalogue :huh:
> 
> i also checked on line but could only find "cotton" voile so am off to stoplight to get some.....
> 
> 40% off for another week or so, swiss voile $4.19 per meter (bottom right page 12)
> 
> lol there may be a rush of men heading to spotlight this week.......
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.spotlight.com.au/catalogues/stocktake-sale?page=7



Just been having a read here. Some most enjoyable posts!

But Maheel! Hold on!!!!

_*Don't*_ buy the *cotton* "Swiss" voille. Cotton, calico, etc will not last very long and may well impart some off-flavours to your beer. You need to go polyester which is inert and can withstand high temperatures.

Print this page and take it with you to Spotlight. They should be able to use that information to get you the right sort of fabric.

Good luck,
Pat


----------



## Nick JD

...and resist the temptation to ask the hot 18 year old girl at Spotlight where the Swiss Voile is - it's less appealing, but the 60 year old nana is the one who knows where it is.

That place is a jungle.


----------



## Nodrog

Nick, you may know a hell of alot about but BIAB, but really???? !!!

on no account should resist the temptation to ask the 18yr old hottie where the swiss voile is.

Only once you tire of following her around the store should you then suggest asking the 60yr old nanna for some help as well.


----------



## husky

Bit the bullet and went in myself. Swiss voile @ $4/metre Spotlight Frankston. Its about 1200mm wide as well so plenty big enough. No hot 18 year olds around so asked the nana after looking for about 15 mins for it. Was right under my nose the whole time. Currently on special too.


----------



## Thirsty Boy

BribieG said:


> Just to finish off any gelatinisation and dextrin formation etc as you said. Also to make the wort less sticky and get a bit more out. Or did I read your analysis wrong?



You did - you missed the part where I repeatedly underlined, made italic, made bold etc the phrase (or a phrase to this effect) - "_Stir constantly_ while you _ramp_ to a mash out"

And then pointed out that the stirring while ramping was integral to the process.

It will still happen to an extent with an "instant" temp raise as you would get in an infusion - but to a significantly lesser degree.

You stir constantly and ramp slowly, the more stubborn starches are slowly released and gelatinised as the temperature increases, but while it is certainly in its death throws... alpha amylase is still active and nibbles away at them as they become available. You are going to run out of available starch at around the same time your alpha amylase is breathing its last. Done.

Whereas if you dump in hot water - everything hits high temp all at once, the alphas turn up their toes and half of any extra starches you release will end up unconverted and _maybe_ give you starch haze.

Plus.... you need an extra pot. I just don't understand why people want to bust out extra saucepans, pots and kettles... when the one they are already using will do the job. Its like parking your car a block from your house and buying a bike to ride from your door to your car... when you have a perfectly good driveway you could be using.


----------



## Acasta

To make a 23L batch, do i need to boil 23L or just add water?


----------



## RdeVjun

Acasta said:


> To make a 23L batch, do i need to boil 23L or just add water?


No, you don't need to boil 23L, you can add water later as a post- boil dilution (at pitching usually), but you'll need to do an over- gravity boil (wort from a concentrated mash which is more grain and less water, while sparging helps efficiency and volume) and have the right mass of sugars before the boil, so that when you add the water later it dilutes down to the desired OG.
This is not what I'd recommend for a novice though, I'd suggest to stick with regular- strength initially. I do this sort of over- gravity thing regularly though, allows a 19L stockpot to do 23- 25L batches, but again, not really for a beginner. Hops utilisation suffers as well, but it is easy enough to compensate.

Hope I understood your question correctly, and if I did, that this helps! :icon_cheers:


----------



## Acasta

This does help, thank you.

Just wondering what you would recommend for a beginner? just do it as it says at the start of the thread?
When you say stick with regular strength do you mean only boil what ill pitch at 1040-1050 type of thing?


----------



## Nick JD

Acasta said:


> When you say stick with regular strength do you mean only boil what ill pitch at 1040-1050 type of thing?



Have a look at this - but I'd recommend trying a smaller batch first time around just to get familiar with the gear and concepts.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showtopic=44264


----------



## Acasta

Just had a look, i think im inspired to start some AG!


----------



## RdeVjun

Acasta said:


> Just wondering what you would recommend for a beginner? just do it as it says at the start of the thread?


Yep, pretty much, if that works out well (usually the case) then either keep doing it or move up to a bigger kettle and bigger batches. Alternatively, it is possible to do 23L batches in a 19L kettle if that's what you've got, that's the over- gravity thing I mentioned before.


Acasta said:


> When you say stick with regular strength do you mean only boil what ill pitch at 1040-1050 type of thing?


Yes, that's it, no over- gravity or post- boil dilution.


Acasta said:


> Just had a look, i think im inspired to start some AG!


Yeah, I was too and some 60- odd batches later I'm still using my trusty 19L stockpot! 
Seriously, the stovetop BIAB method works really well on a tight budget and with minimal risk, but knocks out some excellent AG beer that's up there with the rest and isn't as limited for batch size as conventional wisdom would dictate. It isn't restricted from exploring more advanced techniques either, I do decoctions, step mashes etc regularly, so it isn't really a dead end at all, more the on ramp of a great big AG highway! :icon_cheers:


----------



## pb12

Nodrog said:


> As someone who did 3 kits and then tried a small BIAB brew with minimum setup costs:
> Voile $10
> 17l stockpot $25
> Gas Burner $15
> Prices NZD
> 
> Just do it. it really is easy, although I've never done extracts or anything, I'm not really sure why people would bother, from what I've read its no easier than a small BIAB brew.
> 
> If I was doing it again I'd buy a bigger stockpot, but to go from 17L to anything bigger would have cost $80 or more.
> my first brew is still in the FV, 6 days now, has got from 1050 to 1016 and had to try a bit last night, oh my F%^#cking word it tastes marvellous!



Nodrog,
You got it in one !!!
One of those Warehouse 17L pots I bet. I've got the same set up. Up to 14th BIAB with it. Beer is great, process is so simple.
pb12


----------



## Nodrog

That's the one, 16.5 litres, not 17 ! cheeky buggers


how much yield can you get out of your set up? Bottled my first attempt yesterday, I got 10-1/2 750ml bottles, bit dissapointed its not even a fortnight's supply at one a night.

Think i need to look at doing overstrength boils and then diluting, or using partials. what do you do?



pb12 said:


> Nodrog,
> You got it in one !!!
> One of those Warehouse 17L pots I bet. I've got the same set up. Up to 14th BIAB with it. Beer is great, process is so simple.
> pb12


----------



## husky

Nick, big thanks for taking the time to document all these brews. This thread is the sole reason I attempted my first all grain brew last night. Put down a half batch of DSGA which looks like:
1.2kg wey pils
400g wey munich 1
400g wey pale wheat
125g wey caramunich 1
10g amarillo @ 60
8g amarillo @ 10 (plus 1/3 ish tablet of whirlfloc)
8g amarillo @ 5
US05 half packet sprinkled on top of cooled wort.

Started the process at 7.30pm. Added yeast at 12.20am. Overall a bit longer than I expected but that includes an hour or so in an ice bath to cool the pot down plus all the downtime watching the footy. 
I did a sparge step as I needed to add water before the boil anyway, the gravity of the sparge water was 14 so possibly a waste of time.

Ended uo with bang on 9L @ 1.048 which is within a point of what I expected!
I didnt notice a hot break, there was lots of froth at it came to the boil but it was not a thick type scum so I left it there and started the hop additions.

Again, big thanks Nick. Looking forward to tasting in a few weeks.


----------



## Nick JD

husky said:


> Nick, big thanks for taking the time to document all these brews. This thread is the sole reason I attempted my first all grain brew last night. Put down a half batch of DSGA which looks like:
> 1.2kg wey pils
> 400g wey munich 1
> 400g wey pale wheat
> 125g wey caramunich 1
> 10g amarillo @ 60
> 8g amarillo @ 10 (plus 1/3 ish tablet of whirlfloc)
> 8g amarillo @ 5
> US05 half packet sprinkled on top of cooled wort.
> 
> Started the process at 7.30pm. Added yeast at 12.20am. Overall a bit longer than I expected but that includes an hour or so in an ice bath to cool the pot down plus all the downtime watching the footy.
> I did a sparge step as I needed to add water before the boil anyway, the gravity of the sparge water was 14 so possibly a waste of time.
> 
> Ended uo with bang on 9L @ 1.048 which is within a point of what I expected!
> I didnt notice a hot break, there was lots of froth at it came to the boil but it was not a thick type scum so I left it there and started the hop additions.
> 
> Again, big thanks Nick. Looking forward to tasting in a few weeks.



No worries - that's gonna taste amazing. I'm still yet to do a DSGA ... and I've just realised I have all the ingredients 'cept the US05. Thanks for the inspiration, I think I'll do the Doc's ale next!


----------



## Nick JD

Nodrog said:


> That's the one, 16.5 litres, not 17 ! cheeky buggers
> 
> 
> how much yield can you get out of your set up? Bottled my first attempt yesterday, I got 10-1/2 750ml bottles, bit dissapointed its not even a fortnight's supply at one a night.
> 
> Think i need to look at doing overstrength boils and then diluting, or using partials. what do you do?



I reckon you should splash out on a burner and a 40L pot!


----------



## prestonpaul

I did my first all grain brew on Friday using the technique in this thread so I thought I'd share some photos: 







Equipment set up and ready to go! From left to right and front to rear:


Hops, yeast, hop bags (home made) potato masher

Pyrex measuring jug, scales (for measuring oats, I have a little set of gram scales for hops), Grain bag (home made) Green rubber gloves, thermometer, Beersmith printout, 19L Big W pot

2L plastic jug

Wife's laptop with AHB on it, Quick oats, Bag of grain (crushed and ready to go from Grain and Grape), big bowl








Heating up the mash water.







Mash in.







Sleep well little grains!







Draining the bag, I need to get all the beery goodness out!







The boil. Note the hop bag floating happily.







Spent grain. Now where the hell is a horse when you need one!







All sealed up and ready to cool.







Work hard little yeasties!




I did things slightly differently to the procedure. I started off with 11.5L of water as this was what Beersmith calculated I would need to get 9L of wort.

After taking out the bag, doing the sparge with 1L of water, squeezing the life out of the bag and throwing the liquid back in the pot I ended up with a gravity of 1.047

Here is where I made the only real mistake of the day, I threw first hop bag in before the pot came to the boil. As soon as I realized what I had done I took it out and put it in the pyrex jug. Once the pot came to the boil I put it back in again. I don't think any real damage was done as the wort still tasted alright. After the boil was finished I sealed everything up and buggered off to work for 9 hours (I work afternoon shift). When I got home I transfered the wort into my fermenter. I ended up with about 8.5 liters ( I lost about half a liter to keep the trub out of the fermenter) so Beersmith wasn't far out. I checked the gravity which came out to 1.061. Just a bit high for my liking :blink: I calculated the amount of water needed to dilute to 1.050 with Beersmith which turned out to be 2L, boiled it up in the kettle and added to the fermenter. This brought the gravity to spot on 1.051. Now of course the wort is too hot to pitch the yeast so I put the fermenter in to the kitchen sink filled with water and 3 cooler bricks out of the freezer. It took about 40 minutes to bring the wort down to 24 degrees. While this was happening I re-hydrated the yeast using the directions on the back of the packet (I only used half the packet). Once the fermenter was cool enough I gave it a good shake, pitched the yeast and set it up on the laundry bench to do it's thing  

The whole process was really fascinating, and a great learning curve. I realize I went in to it a bit more scientifically than was the intent of the original procedure but that's just the way I am  I am still not sure why my gravity turned out so high but I assume it is just a matter of too much grain? Not that I am complaining mind you, I am sure it is better to have too high a gravity than too low :beer: 

All in all I think this is a great process to give an all grain noob a good understanding of what is going on and I for one will definitely be having another go.

Paul.


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## RdeVjun

Nodrog said:


> That's the one, 16.5 litres, not 17 ! cheeky buggers
> 
> 
> how much yield can you get out of your set up? Bottled my first attempt yesterday, I got 10-1/2 750ml bottles, bit dissapointed its not even a fortnight's supply at one a night.
> 
> Think i need to look at doing overstrength boils and then diluting, or using partials. what do you do?


Yeah, it is disappointing when the batch size is fairly small. But you can do bigger batches with that stockpot and this method, it has the essentials, but I'll add a couple of fairly trivial steps describing what I do as well. As Nick suggests, a spanking great big new pot would be nice, I'll tell you how to get by until then though.
Basically you can just largely ignore what your pot/kettle volume actual is (well to some extent, I'm just assuming that you want to make a batch bigger than your kettle volume) and just mash in enough grain for a full batch, say 4.5kg. The pot needs to be full to the brim for mashing, not a calculated volume and we'll sparge it. A 4kg grainbill should be OK in that slightly smaller pot though.

Mash: Doing this is easy, fill with water to about 3/4, raise to strike temp (desired mashing temp + 4C works for me), remove a couple of litres temporarily, put the bag in & add the grain, use the couple of litres of water to adjust the temp (so boil it for raising or just add cold for lowering), but at the end of it you want the pot full to the brim. Mash as per usual, I like fairly dry beers so I mash low and long, but well before the end of the mash, put on to boil about 1/3 of the volume of the pot of water, this will be used to sparge and will be just off the boil. Another smaller pot is useful to do this but a plastic bucket is fine too.
Sparge: Lift & drain the bag briefly, put the kettle on the heat for the boil, and slip the bag into the sparge pot/ bucket, open the bag up and stir it well. Lift after 15 minutes, drain thoroughly. Adding a pinch of citric acid to the sparge seems to help (but I know my source water is alkaline).
Boil: So when we lifted the bag it leaves the pot less than half full, not very much liquor, but it is quite concentrated (often around 1.080). We'll add the sparge liquor to the boil and if it is still strong (say 1.040), I'll actually re- sparge it. There may be too much sparge liquor, that's good because during the boil there will be evaporation losses, adding more sparge liquor will replace that which is lost. Make sure it all gets added before 10 minutes from the boil end, also increasing the heat when adding it gradually will mean the boil isn't paused by a big, cooler addition. Any surplus sparge goes into yeast starters.
Wort cooling: I often chill the kettle in the laundry sink with a couple of changes of cold water over a few hours, it is sensible to re-use some of the heated water for cleaning down. Once it is cooled to pitching temp, I'll pour it through a sieve into the fermenter, add the dilution water and yeast. Done. Minimising the amount of trub left in the kettle is probably the best way to ensure you're getting the best possible efficiency, I'll normally lose about a litre but again, use that for starters.

Suggest measuring the liquor density and volume and at each step of the way to see how it is progressing*, so first runnings, first sparge, second sparge, I'll also measure total pre- boil and of course post- boil SG. I'll dilute it at pitching, work out just how much by this formula:
Diluted Volume = Actual SG/ Target SG * Actual Volume
(SGs such as 1.050 expressed as 50)
Hopefully it is around a fermenter- full, you can also help things by choosing a sugar friendly style, eg. I use 10% of the grainbill as sugar in my ESBs, that's best added at pitching (dissolve it in hot water, use cold for the dilution, just keep it all sanitary).

Hops utilisation in the boil begins to suffer at >1.050, I'll increase it in subsequent batches if it is found wanting, initially I wouldn't be overly concerned though. 10% more hops per 0.010 over 1.050 is a rough rule of thumb.

BTW, if there's any concerns about whether this actually works, every week I do 20- 25L batches of ESB with a 4.6kg grain bill in my 19L stockpot on the kitchen stove.

* This method has lots of things to measure, but they're not really that important, just novel. The critical parameters are post- boil and target SGs, plus volume, the first sparge SG will help you decide if it needs redoing. The inwards volume measurements don't need to be precise, that's why I've used proportions like 1/3 and 3/4 etc.) and because we're diluting we have the scope to adjust as much or as little as need be to get to the target SG.

Sorry for the essay, hope this helps! :icon_cheers:


----------



## pb12

Nodrog said:


> That's the one, 16.5 litres, not 17 ! cheeky buggers
> 
> 
> how much yield can you get out of your set up? Bottled my first attempt yesterday, I got 10-1/2 750ml bottles, bit dissapointed its not even a fortnight's supply at one a night.
> 
> Think i need to look at doing overstrength boils and then diluting, or using partials. what do you do?



I'm now producing 24 x 750mL bottles with my 17L pot. Basically do as outlined above but replace as much volume as I can during the boil with boiled water from the jug (x 4). As my sparging step is not as rigourous as RdeVjun outlines above my efficiency suffers alot. So from a 4kg grain bill I get end up with ~ 1.042 after diluting into the fermenter up to my final volume.
This is about how my calcs go
Grain bill 4.0kg
Start water 13.2L
Mash volume 16.0L
Start of boil volume 13.2L
Top up water 5.0L (as much as possible during boil and rest into fermenter
End of boil volume 16.0L
End of chill volume 15.0L
Top Up water 3.0L 
Trub 2.0L
Brew length 18.0L (24.00 bottles)

It can all be a bit of a performance to make all this happen. So now biting the bullet and I am investing in a 32L pot to get back to 'simple ' full boil set up

pb12


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## Nodrog

thats bloody good pb and RdeV, thanks, I will be heading in that direction for the next brew.

Getting temp control sorted in the mean time, have ordered one of those cheapy controllers from ebay, NZD48 delivered.

pb - where are you going for your big pot? i see some on trademe for about $100, but not sure re quality. 

Hop utilistation:
Hops utilisation in the boil begins to suffer at >1.050, I'll increase it in subsequent batches if it is found wanting, initially I wouldn't be overly concerned though. 10% more hops per 0.010 over 1.050 is a rough rule of thumb.

So if SG at start of boil is 1.060, for example, I add 105 more hops than 'normal, if SG is 1.070 I add 20% more hops?

That seems easy enough.


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## pb12

Nodrog said:


> pb - where are you going for your big pot? i see some on trademe for about $100, but not sure re quality.



Apparently the $100 Trademe pots are very thin. I'm not keen.
Looking at
http://www.southernhospitality.co.nz/categ...m-stockpot.html
http://www.blueribbon.co.nz/main/shop/items/61432.html
http://www.choice.co.nz/View.aspx?Product=6493

Southern Hospitality one is solid. Haven't seen the others. 

Of course buying one of these bigger pots means it's not AG for less than 30 bucks anymore.............but the beer will still taste good.

pb12


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## RdeVjun

That's not too bad pb12, efficiency isn't the be- all and end- all! If I run out of sparge during the long boils (two hours), I'll add boiling water too, in this situation the fuller that kettle is then the better IMO (i.e. lower concentration, helps minimise trub losses). 
Hops utilisation can change with the variations in SG (i.e. when adding boiling water or sparge), but I've never really been that bothered by it, my ESB recipe (tomorrow will be batch #32) still has about 20IBU of bittering, 10IBU flavour and 2g/L late addition, which is roughly where it started, only once have I thought the bittering was crook, and then it was slightly too bitter anyway.

Nodrog, yes, IIRC that's right (from memory!). To be honest though, I don't think the overall effect is as bad as 10%, so be careful not to overdo it, in fact the first few batches I'd be happy to just ignore it as our largely- untrained palates probably aren't able to distinguish these small variations anyway.

FWIW, one reason I've stayed with BIABing in the 19L pot is simply that it works well enough for me, but I'm also quite familiar with the way it behaves and I know where the performance boundaries are plus it actually gives me the results I desire and it didn't cost me much dough at all. B)


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## pb12

Nodrog

Of course another way to increase capacity, especially if you already have another heat source........is too do side by side batches. Lets say 'Move To All Grain For Sixty Bucks'.
2 x 17L Pot
2 x Bags etc. all happening side by side.

It is something I've been considering but with 2nd pot, 2nd bag and, for me, another burner ($50), it is probably going to be $90 or so. Thus I might as well get a bigger pot. (The risk for me is my current burner will struggle to get the bigger pot to the boil)

pb12


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## pb12

RdeVjun said:


> [snip]
> Mash: Doing this is easy, fill with water to about 3/4, raise to strike temp (desired mashing temp + 4C works for me), remove a couple of litres temporarily, put the bag in & add the grain, use the couple of litres of water to adjust the temp (so boil it for raising or just add cold for lowering), but at the end of it you want the pot full to the brim. Mash as per usual, I like fairly dry beers so I mash low and long, but well before the end of the mash, put on to boil about 1/3 of the volume of the pot of water, this will be used to sparge and will be just off the boil. Another smaller pot is useful to do this but a plastic bucket is fine too.
> 
> Sparge: Lift & drain the bag briefly, put the kettle on the heat for the boil, and slip the bag into the sparge pot/ bucket, open the bag up and stir it well. Lift after 15 minutes, drain thoroughly. Adding a pinch of citric acid to the sparge seems to help (but I know my source water is alkaline).


 When I have tried this I have found the size of the second sparge pot/bucket still needs to be a reasonable size. I tried it with a 10L pot. The volume that the wet grain takes up in a 10L pot is alot, thus only 3L of sparge water before it overflowed, especially when jiggling it about tea bag style. Probably another 17L pot would be ideal.

Now I might investigate RdeVjun's method for a couple of batches before stumping up for the big pot. (cost $25 for a 2nd Warehouse 17l pot for sparging)

pb12

pb12


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## pb12

RdeVjun said:


> [snip]
> Sparge: Lift & drain the bag briefly, put the kettle on the heat for the boil, and slip the bag into the sparge pot/ bucket, open the bag up and stir it well. Lift after 15 minutes, drain thoroughly.



Perhaps my reply in the post above could be worth re-considering. I tried 'dunk sparge', tea bag dunking style. It was a bit messy, hence my suggestion for a bigger sparge vessel.
When I re read RdeVjun's method I see how it could work just fine with say a 10L vessel.

Something like ..........
10L pot/bucket
Add 3L sparge water at just off boiling
Carefully add bag and wet grain
Open bag carefully.
Add as much additional sparge water to fill to brim.
Carefully stir
Lift an drain as per usual
If I could get 5L wort from this for boil top additions that would be about right for my 17L pot.

Addition cost $0, as I have a 10L stock pot.
Also, you do have time available at this stage as you are waiting for the main pot to come to the boil.

pb12


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## Nodrog

thats what I'll be doing next, I have a 10litre resene pail, well cleaned, will put the grain / bag into that, add as much hot water as possible and literally mash (with potato masher !). it has to be called mashing for a reason right?

Is there anything to be gained / lost by more vigorous 'mashing' rather than letting the grain sit still in water does anyone know?


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## RdeVjun

Nodrog, at sparge a good stir is needed, go hard there, not much to lose.

pb12, that sounds fine, if you're only sparging with 3L and a large grain bill, probably best to do it twice but I suspect you'll get more sparge than that in the 10L vessel, probably 5L, so start boiling water for it early.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I

Tried my 2nd and 3rd BIAB AG on Sunday. One for a fullsize batch, one for a 9L.

The first one, we struggled with efficiency, because we were doing a 20L batch. I looked at the fullsize batch guide and decided a good sparge was needed for the larger batch.

With fullsized batch, I used thick rubber gloves squeezed it well and then some water at 78 degrees in a pasta strainer and rain the water (about 6L) through the grain in two lots, one about 4.5L for another major squeeze and then 1.5L to finish it out.

Compared to the first 20L we got more out of it - the hydrometer didn't read the reading until we diluted it down to 1050, so I'm happy with that - it was spot on the reading for the effiency I allowed for (65%).

I now own 2 19L pots (courtesy of a 11.98 special at big w), so I think the next time, I'll do half of the batch in each pot for the mash and then boil it - that way no dilution and probably even better efficiency.

The 9L batch - I think next time, I'll fill up the mash to finish at about 14L, because I found that I boiled down to about 8L and had to top it up.

Finally - nottingham yeast goes nuts - even with cooler weather.


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## samhaldane

I'd just like to say thanks to Nick JD for starting this thread. It eased my transition into AG brewing and my current process (after 9 AG batches) is still pretty similar.

I managed to pick up a couple of prizes in the ESB competition yesterday, including runner up best of show, using this technique.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=656508

I think the only major thing that I changed is my hop schedules. For hoppy beers, I add the bittering hops at 45 mins before the end of the boil, and poor the ~90C wort into a small cube on top of my flavour hops to no-chill over night. Then I use a coffee plunger to make some 'hop tea' for aroma (as well as some dry hopping).

That said, my Wit did well too and didn't involve any fancy hop additions!


----------



## DU99

Well done ..on your win


----------



## RdeVjun

haldini said:


> I'd just like to say thanks to Nick JD for starting this thread. It eased my transition into AG brewing and my current process (after 9 AG batches) is still pretty similar.
> 
> I managed to pick up a couple of prizes in the ESB competition yesterday, including runner up best of show, using this technique.
> 
> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=656508
> 
> I think the only major thing that I changed is my hop schedules. For hoppy beers, I add the bittering hops at 45 mins before the end of the boil, and poor the ~90C wort into a small cube on top of my flavour hops to no-chill over night. Then I use a coffee plunger to make some 'hop tea' for aroma (as well as some dry hopping).
> 
> That said, my Wit did well too and didn't involve any fancy hop additions!


Congratulations and great work haldini! :icon_cheers: 

My word though, haven't you set the cat amongst the pigeons! A 19L BIAB brewery (I guess), pouring hot wort, NC, "hop tea" etc winning prizes- challenges a few of the traditional methods. Again, congratulations on that, you've done brilliantly! :super:


----------



## samhaldane

RdeVjun said:


> Congratulations and great work haldini! :icon_cheers:
> 
> My word though, haven't you set the cat amongst the pigeons! A 19L BIAB brewery (I guess), pouring hot wort, NC, "hop tea" etc winning prizes- challenges a few of the traditional methods. Again, congratulations on that, you've done brilliantly! :super:



Thanks mate, I'm pretty stoked. 

I only have a 16L pot. About 10L goes into the cube and 9L into the fermenter (it's _really_ full at the start of the boil). Add a litre of water for hop tea and you end up with about 9L of finished beer into the bottle. I use a home made voile bag and use a taut line hitch to hoist the bag.

When I say 'pouring', I do mean that I have a ball valve tap on my pot that I attach some hosing to that goes to the bottom of the cube, to avoid hot side aeration and most of the kettle trub. I also have a weldless thermometer installed on my pot that makes things a little easier.


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## RdeVjun

No worries haldani, you should be stoked! Enjoy this moment, hope it is the first of many!

I've been disappointed with late hops character with some of mine, usually the hop tea does works a treat though and I prefer it to dry hops in most circumstances.

BTW, if you've ever wanted to scrape more out of the stockpot in terms of batch size, perhaps consider post- boil dilution? I do it all the time in my big double ewe 19L stockpot, in fact I'm so pleased with it that the two stainless firkins (40L kegs- legitimately owned) plus most of a 3V setup I have here still sit idle. Today I mashed a 4.75 kg grainbill in this pot and with a cup or so of sugar (which is to style in this) it yields enough for 23- 24L of ESB- strength (1.055) into the fermenter, no sweat. Sparging (in a bucket) seems to be the key though, otherwise the yield and volume just won't get over the line.


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## Nick JD

haldini said:


> I managed to pick up a couple of prizes in the ESB competition yesterday, including runner up best of show, using this technique.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

Apart from wanting to bring this back to the 1st page so other newbies can see it I have a quick question, can Muslin cloth be used for Biab?

Great thread, thanks Nick, doing the ground work for an AG in 2 weeks, I think you have inspired lots of KK's here!


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## kbe

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> I have a 9L pot I know this a 9L mash, so I'd have to drop to say 8L to give headroom (or 7L). How much does that affect efficiency.
> 
> The reason I ask is that the 9L pot is a fantastic heavy bottom thing, and would be ideal for a brew otherwise. Notwithstanding the fact that it saves me $20 at big w getting a paper thin pot to do it myself.
> 
> Other question (may have been asked) - is a butane cooker (the camping ones, or the ones that japanese restaurants used to keep your food sizzling as it comes to you), with the cans going to be good enough for a 20L pot (should I need to purchase it).
> 
> Thanks in advance, this forum is a goldmine.


I did an extract brew with grains the other night with a butane camping cooker. It was an 11 litre 1 hour boil. I used the 19 litre pot from Big W. It took about 20 minutes to get it to the boil and then was kept at a boil with minimal heat, although I left the lid on to assist it. It used a little over 1 tin of gas.


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## Steve

kbe said:


> although I left the lid on to assist it.



Yum Yum. You need to have the lid off to let the nasties escape.


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## Nick JD

beerdrinkingbob said:


> I have a quick question, can Muslin cloth be used for Biab?



Check out Pat's legendary thread. It has all the BIAB info and more!

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showtopic=11694


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## smilinggilroy

Steve said:


> Yum Yum. You need to have the lid off to let the nasties escape.



Hi, 
I am new to brewing but not cooking......
Could someone point me in the right direction on the subject of "the nasties escaping".
As only this weekend I had a in depth discussion with a "chemistry type dude" who reckond
the nasties would stay in solution and only clean steam would be emitted. Like desal. or similar to 
distilled water process.
Sorry if I have hijacked thread...
Need some solid info.
Thanks in advance


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## Bribie G

No, there are aromatic compounds that are boiled off. The main bugbear is a compound called Dimethyl Sulphide (DMS) that can arise from mashing some Pilsener malts. Not so bad nowadays with the modern malts but it can still happen and thats why lager brewers tend to do a 90 minute boil rather than 60 mins. DMS gives a cooked corn / cabbage twang if there's too much there, and boiling whilst covered can tend to trap DMS in the wort.


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## argon

Here you go... straight from Palmer's Book



> Dimethyl Sulfides (DMS)/ Cooked Vegetable Flavours
> Like diacetyl in ales, DMS is common in many light lagers and is considered to be part of the character. DMS is produced in the wort during the boil by the reduction of another compound, S-methyl-methionine (SMM), which is itself produced during malting. When a malt is roasted or toasted, the SMM is reduced beforehand and does not manifest as DMS in the wort, which explains why it is more prevalent in pale lagers. In other styles, DMS is a common off-flavour, and can be caused by poor brewing practices or bacterial infections.
> DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller.
> When caused by bacterial infection, DMS has a more rancid character, more liked cooked cabbage than corn. It is usually the result of poor sanitation. Repitching the yeast from an infected batch of beer will perpetuate the problem.



There's plenty of stuff in the steam that vaporizes from the boil... not just pure water. Ever look inside a rangehood?... full of sticky mess. So lots of stuff is being "boiled off" during the boil. I have experienced dms in my beers before and don't wish to taste it again. After a heap of research, my problem was boil vigour and I now boil very hard to make sure I get rid of much crap as possible. I now have beautifully clean beers without a touch of any cooked veg character.


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## Nick JD

Another "cheat" to get your beers to have DMS levels so low you can't taste it is to use malts low in the DMS precursor, SMM. Ale malts are often lower in SMM than Pilsner malts. The lower the EBC (colour) of a malt the more likely corn tastes will be in your beer.

Most of this is beyond the scope of this thread though. If you're starting out - a good hearty boil (more than a simmer, less than a spa pool) with the lid off and you'll be making supurb beer.

If you find you are losing too much liquid because of your boil, put the coffee kettle on with a couple of liters in it and top up the level with boiling water. Easy.


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## bum

Extract boil, guys.


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## Nick JD

bum said:


> Extract boil, guys.



Right, you are.


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## corcatraz

Hey guys

Just a quick question. Is it ok to leave the hop flowers in loose for the overnight no-chill?
My brain seems to think it's read somewhere that it's not ok but I can't remember.

I've just done my 5th brew today using pretty much this technique but I've been chilling. I'm just getting a bit sick of losing too much to the trub etc and I'm thinking it would probably settle better left overnight.

I spose the other option is to just chuck the whole lot in the fermenter and let it settle there?
Cheers


----------



## argon

corcatraz said:


> Hey guys
> 
> Just a quick question. Is it ok to leave the hop flowers in loose for the overnight no-chill?
> My brain seems to think it's read somewhere that it's not ok but I can't remember.
> 
> I've just done my 5th brew today using pretty much this technique but I've been chilling. I'm just getting a bit sick of losing too much to the trub etc and I'm thinking it would probably settle better left overnight.
> 
> I spose the other option is to just chuck the whole lot in the fermenter and let it settle there?
> Cheers



Nothing really to worry about greatly leaving the hop flowers in the nc cube... Especially if it's just overnight. Done this plenty of times... I do however understand that nagging concern. When transferring from cube to fermenter strain it through your sanitized graIn bag to remove the hop debris. This will also avoid any blocked taps when bottling/ kegging times rolls around.


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## corcatraz

argon said:


> Nothing really to worry about greatly leaving the hop flowers in the nc cube... Especially if it's just overnight. Done this plenty of times... I do however understand that nagging concern. When transferring from cube to fermenter strain it through your sanitized graIn bag to remove the hop debris. This will also avoid any blocked taps when bottling/ kegging times rolls around.



Cheers argon,
I did end up finding a couple of threads bringing me to that conclusion. I think I'll try it next time.

:beer:


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## Lobby Lobster

beerdrinkingbob said:


> Apart from wanting to bring this back to the 1st page so other newbie's can see it I have a quick question, can Muslin cloth be used for Biab?



Hey Bob, I think it's the same thing as muslin or pretty close. I use muslin and get it from Spotlight (everywhere) for $1 or $2 a metre then cut it up. So I chuck it out after each brew rather than wash and re-use.
I do boil it first though.

Thanks from me too Nick.


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## Nick JD

Lobby Lobster said:


> Hey Bob, I think it's the same thing as muslin or pretty close. I use muslin and get it from Spotlight (everywhere) for $1 or $2 a metre then cut it up. So I chuck it out after each brew rather than wash and re-use.
> I do boil it first though.
> 
> Thanks from me too Nick.



I've never used muslin and can't comment on its effectiveness. There's no need to boil anything pre-boil. 

Swiss Voile can be used almost forever, so it'll end up cheaper - remember that nothing lives through a 60 minute boil, so your bag can get pretty revolting and still produce great beer. That said - wash it every few brews and you're laughing. By "wash" I mean soak it in some napisan for a few hours and rinse and dry.

I only hose mine out after brewing, although today I soaked it in napisan because I forgot I'd left it in the green bucket for three days with the grain in it and ARRRAHHHH ... acetobacter city. VINEGAR.


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## PistolPatch

Great to see the posts still flowing in this thread.

You are right on the Muslin, Nick. I have heard of several brewers not being happy with the result. I think BIAB is one of the few things in life where I would advise people to go for the synthetic product - that being polyester.

I think the problem with muslin is as follows though I am not sure of any of them 100% apart from the last...

1. Muslin may impart flavours to the brew. It is a natural fibre full of resins etc.

2. Muslin, with my understanding of it will be too fine and take ages to drain.

3. Muslin, like any other natural fibre, will rot. Polyester has a very high melting point and is therefore very impervious. In simple terms, it lasts a long time. My original BIAB bag (must be at least 4 years old now) is still being used by LloydieP who brews more often than I!

So, stick with the polyester.

Cheers,
Pat


----------



## Lobby Lobster

PistolPatch said:


> So, stick with the polyester.



Well there you go. I better voile up. 

Cheers.


----------



## roddersf

PistolPatch said:


> Great to see the posts still flowing in this thread.
> 
> You are right on the Muslin, Nick. I have heard of several brewers not being happy with the result. I think BIAB is one of the few things in life where I would advise people to go for the synthetic product - that being polyester.
> 
> I think the problem with muslin is as follows though I am not sure of any of them 100% apart from the last...
> 
> 1. Muslin may impart flavours to the brew. It is a natural fibre full of resins etc.
> 
> 2. Muslin, with my understanding of it will be too fine and take ages to drain.
> 
> 3. Muslin, like any other natural fibre, will rot. Polyester has a very high melting point and is therefore very impervious. In simple terms, it lasts a long time. My original BIAB bag (must be at least 4 years old now) is still being used by LloydieP who brews more often than I!
> 
> So, stick with the polyester.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pat



Hey Pat,

I don't understand how Muslin can impart off flavours, haven't chefs (especially very anal ones regarding flavour - my brother in law being one of them) been using them for hundreds of years without issues? I've brewed many BIAB's with muslin and had no issues at all, maybe you need to buy a "good quality" muslin?? Who knows...

ED: Actually I remember hearing somewhere that al lot of Chinese made fabrics are soaked in formaldehyde - maybe this is the problem?

Regarding point 2, you can get different grades of muslin, the one I use is something like a "medium" (getting technical now  ), it drains nicely.

I've used one bit of muslin now (which I brewed with just today) and its been going for 2 years after goodness know's how many brews.

What I like about it is that I don't have to worry about it melting when I "flame on".

Not knocking swiss voile at all, nor am I trying to be smart - just genuinely puzzled by people getting off flavours.

Pat if you could comment on this thread that would be sweet - PS: I appreciate all the work you've put into BIABrewer.com champ!! Keep up the good work.

ALSO - Cheers to Nick JD for this thread - I'm passing it onto two mates who believe AG is near impossible - its threads like this that remove the intimidation factor!

Rodders. :icon_cheers:


----------



## PistolPatch

Hi there rodders and please excuse the slow reply ,

That is good news to hear you are getting great results with muslin. My apprehensive opinion above was based on only a few people's results way back in the beginning. (I just did a search on muslin but so many results came up I gave up. There seems to be some positive talk on muslin from apd round about this post.)

I suppose with fabric descriptions, there is a heap of room for error. What one brewer calls muslin might be totally different form another's - for all I know those having problems with it might have used something dyed, soaked oin formaldehyde and way too fine!

rodders, can you post a pic up of your bag and maybe one of when it was full of a draining mash? These pics might help others to 'picture' and then find the right muslin. Also maybe where you bought it from if possible. I'd certainly prefer to be recommending a natural fibre instead of polyester so if you get time to post more pics and info I'm sure a heap of others would appreciate your effort too.

I'd be a little worried about applying flame to a muslin or a polyester bag without stirring or lifting. My polyester bag won't burn with my set up as my burners provide flame over a wide area. Some burners provide a more focussed flame and will probably burn anything! For this reason as well as for maintaining a uniform mash temp I play it safe and sugget brewers stir or lift when applying heat - there's nothing worse than hearing of someone burning a bag .

Thanks rodders for your positive muslin post above. Thanks for your other comments as well and I'll check out the other post you mentioned now.

All the best and look forward to a beer in Sydney some time,
Pat


----------



## flano

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/30-litre-tea-coffee...Home_Appliances
would this be any good for this type of thing?
regardless of the price that is.


----------



## bullfrog

beernorks said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/30-litre-tea-coffee...Home_Appliances
> would this be any good for this type of thing?
> regardless of the price that is.


I've got a 40L urn and find that it's just big enough for my regular stout grain bill. I suppose you'd be okay if you were just doing smaller grain bills or sparging into a seperate vessel and then adding that wort back into your boil.


----------



## tavas

beernorks said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/30-litre-tea-coffee...Home_Appliances
> would this be any good for this type of thing?
> regardless of the price that is.




Short answer is yes. 

Long answer...
I have used one for BIAB. They are only 30 litres so you need to account for your water additions carefully. Best to aim for an over gravity beer and dilute into the fermenter. Mine boils quite vigoursly and evap rate is about 4.5 litres an hour. When boiling, it spits water everywhere if you're boiling over 25 litres. But otherwise it works fine. Do note however that several other members have bought these and they have died pretty quickly. _I_ think it is due to having 2900W of power in them. The elements tend to crap out on them. Its also rated for 220V not 240 (or 250V in WA) which probably doesn't help.

If you want to use an urn for BIAB (Which is a very good thing), you have two options:
1) Buy this, use it until it dies and get an immerison heater for about $45 and use the urn as a 30 pot. (NB: some guys have retrofitted kettle elements into these. I don't recommend it but there's enough info on here to be able to do this).

2) Save up for a Crown or a Birko. Usually betwen $250 - $300. These are more robust and should last (I bought a 40 lt Birko).

3) Don't use an urn.

Hope that helps
Tavas


----------



## Nevalicious

tavas said:


> Short answer is yes.
> 
> Long answer...
> I have used one for BIAB. They are only 30 litres so you need to account for your water additions carefully. Best to aim for an over gravity beer and dilute into the fermenter. Mine boils quite vigoursly and evap rate is about 4.5 litres an hour. When boiling, it spits water everywhere if you're boiling over 25 litres. But otherwise it works fine. Do note however that several other members have bought these and they have died pretty quickly. _I_ think it is due to having 2900W of power in them. The elements tend to crap out on them. Its also rated for 220V not 240 (or 250V in WA) which probably doesn't help.
> 
> If you want to use an urn for BIAB (Which is a very good thing), you have two options:
> 1) Buy this, use it until it dies and get an immerison heater for about $45 and use the urn as a 30 pot. (NB: some guys have retrofitted kettle elements into these. I don't recommend it but there's enough info on here to be able to do this).
> 
> 2) Save up for a Crown or a Birko. Usually betwen $250 - $300. These are more robust and should last (I bought a 40 lt Birko).
> 
> 3) Don't use an urn.
> 
> Hope that helps
> Tavas



Tavas, 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_power_a...#Voltage_ranges

Mains supply throughout Australia is 230vac +10% -6%. 240vac is still reasonably normal, 250v is not normal and certainly wont differ state by state

Fitting a kettle urn to your 30lt urn (IF it shits itself) is a viable option, as I have done it myself. But make sure you know what you're doing or get a leccy mate or family member to help out if unsure... Tavas is right in saying that they have a short life expectancy... Mine hasn't died just yet, I have simply installed the kettle element as a backup if my primary element dies during a boil. The combined wattage of both elements is 2800w approximately (roughtly 13 odd amps) and legally shouldn't be fed from a 10A plug lead, but it is... Another issue. 

The tap is cheap and should be replaced with a ball valve assy. Most users of urns will say that regardless of brand, also makes it easier to fit silicon hose to, especially if you NC.

All said, it will still work, just be prepared that you may have to root around with it later on if it dies... Knowing what I know now, probably just should've forked out double the cash and bought a Birko like Tavas did, less fuss, better unit etc

2c

Cheers

Tyler


----------



## smilinggilroy

beernorks said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/30-litre-tea-coffee...Home_Appliances
> would this be any good for this type of thing?
> regardless of the price that is.



Do a search on these urns through the forums.(E-bay V5)
They're not that good, put the hard earned dollars into something reliable that won't shit itself mid boil on a Sunday arvo.
My 2c worth
Cheers


----------



## flano

cheers 

I think I will just get a big arse pot...stainless or aluminium????

and do biab for a while until


----------



## leiothrix

why would you want a big arse-pot?  

The summary is Ali's cheaper, S/S is prettier.

I'd prefer S/S, but it depends on your budget. Ali isn't going to hurt anything.

rob.


----------



## goomboogo

leiothrix said:


> why would you want a big arse-pot?
> 
> rob.



I prefer it that way.


----------



## flano

ok ...

just read a fair bit of this again.

Got to about page 9 when my eyes started bleeding and some dude started fugging it up for everyone.

In short.

big pot ..20 ltrs .
coffee grinder or equiv.
Thermometer ( candy ...whatever that means ...some sort of cooking gizmo I reckon)
Swiss violle polyester ...enough for big bag and a few smaller ones for hops etc.

plus ingredients.

no worrys with sticking the hydrometer in such hot liquid??

also my BBQ has a side burner..could I just use this?

..and the fella's who do all grain on their big 3 tiers setups ...does this chew through the gas ( lpg)

cheers
Norks.


----------



## barneyb

beernorks said:


> coffee grinder or equiv.


I've been using grain crushed by my LHBS and it has works a treat. Efficiency has been a bit on the low side but I think it is mostly due to other reasons.



> Thermometer ( candy ...whatever that means ...some sort of cooking gizmo I reckon)


I just use a digital one from Big W ($20) and it works well. Your LHBS might also have some for sale



> no worrys with sticking the hydrometer in such hot liquid??



Yeah be careful with this. I believe Nick said later int he thread that he runs the hydro under warm water (ramping the temp up to hot water) before putting it into the hot liquid. If you put a cold one straight in you run the risk of shattering it.

As for you BBQ it will all depend on how much of a boil you can get from it.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

beernorks said:


> ok ...
> 
> just read a fair bit of this again.
> 
> Got to about page 9 when my eyes started bleeding and some dude started fugging it up for everyone.
> 
> In short.
> 
> big pot ..20 ltrs .
> coffee grinder or equiv.
> Thermometer ( candy ...whatever that means ...some sort of cooking gizmo I reckon)
> Swiss violle polyester ...enough for big bag and a few smaller ones for hops etc.
> 
> plus ingredients.
> 
> no worrys with sticking the hydrometer in such hot liquid??
> 
> also my BBQ has a side burner..could I just use this?
> 
> ..and the fella's who do all grain on their big 3 tiers setups ...does this chew through the gas ( lpg)
> 
> cheers
> Norks.



Yes yes yes - I sound like SWMBO after my magic hands get going.

Norks, I have 2x19L big w pots (I happened to purchase a second on special for $11), and I now do fullsized batches (split the grain bill in 2) using these on the stove and efficiency is fantastic. 

I used a pasta pot to sparge (It has an insert strainer that acts like a false bottom) - it means I'm not hauling big grain bags onto hooks (that I don't own in my rental property). Don't use the door knob, it doesn't work.

If you use CB above - they crush grain for you, so if you don't own a coffee grinder, you can save yourself a few bucks not purchasing one.

The reason I do the fullsize batch? 9L is great for experiments, but it is a whole lot of effort for not that much beer. It's great for practicing, as NickJD says, but it does get a little frustrating devoting half your weekend for 2/3 a carton of beer. Once you're confident with your techniques (and you'll probably invent some that suit you, such as I have), do full size batches. 30 tallies worth of beer is worth that effort.

Some of the 3V blokes can be disparaging toward BIAB (some, not all), but it certainly is a fantastic way to do AG beer, and my efficiencies are over 80%, so I'm not convinced that buying a 3V system is economically sound. Everyone is different though. I respect the years of experience the 3V guys have, but for me, I see no need to "move up" to 3V.

Have fun, nontheless. Horses, courses, etc


----------



## barneyb

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Don't use the door knob, it doesn't work.


Really? It worked great for my when I tried. The trick I used was to keep the bag in the bucket, only lift it above the water line. This way is isn't touching the door. Obviously you need a rope to tie it to!

I also have used the trick where you put some dow or a strong broom handle across a kitchen bench where is meets in an L shape and tie the rope to the piece of wood which is hanging over the floor. 


> The reason I do the fullsize batch? 9L is great for experiments, but it is a whole lot of effort for not that much beer. It's great for practicing, as NickJD says, but it does get a little frustrating devoting half your weekend for 2/3 a carton of beer. Once you're confident with your techniques (and you'll probably invent some that suit you, such as I have), do full size batches. 30 tallies worth of beer is worth that effort.


I think your maths is a tad off . I do 10L batches and get a bit over 1 case worth of beer. (10L / 330ml = 30 beers or if using 375ml = 26 beers). Although I agree it is a lot of effort for a case, it doesn't quite take 1/2 weekend! I can knock over the mash/boil in a couple of hours. I have even done it a couple of times at night after work, spending all the mashing/boiling time cooking dinner and watching TV. Bottling 1 case worth only takes about an hour now I am used to it. 

It is definitely for experimenting only though, once I get some good recipes down I will move to making them in full batches. The reason I only do 1/2 batches now is cause there is nothing worse than making 2 1/2 cases worth of beer that is so bitter even your mates won't drink it. Trust me I know from experience! 

I like your 2 pot idea for full batches. Ill definitely give that a shot soon.


----------



## flano

Cheers fellas
gonna hit Big W right now see what they have for a big pot.

could I put the bag into a colander that is over the bucket or does it need to be hung?


----------



## Nick JD

The 9L version is really just to keep things simple and small in case anything goes wrong first time round. The first time you're not primarily trying to make beer, you're teaching yourself _how _to make beer. Drinking the first batch is just a bonus.

I've found a 3 to 3.5kg grain bill and a fermenter volume of 18L @ ~1.050 is easily doable with this gear. 

If you want to push the limits, you _can _do a 24L batch of 4.5% AG beer using this gear. 

After your first small batch, all of your questions will answer themselves.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Nick JD said:


> The 9L version is really just to keep things simple and small in case anything goes wrong first time round. The first time you're not primarily trying to make beer, you're teaching yourself _how _to make beer. Drinking the first batch is just a bonus.
> 
> I've found a 3 to 3.5kg grain bill and a fermenter volume of 18L @ ~1.050 is easily doable with this gear.
> 
> If you want to push the limits, you _can _do a 24L batch of 4.5% AG beer using this gear.
> 
> After your first small batch, all of your questions will answer themselves.



True true. Even with average efficiency, you can get a good batch with 3-3.5kg.

I find that 4 to 4.5kg (depending on specialty grains) will do a great job of 22.5L batch. But Nick_JD is absolutely right - 9L is perfect for experimenting. I've had 2 of my experiment batches become fullsize batches. I'm not disparaging 9L batches, they are fantastic for experimenting. And since I now have 2 pots, I can do 2 experimental batches at once. But as a permanent method of making beer, no way will I go batch to 1 x 9L batch per brew day.

Having said that - Nick_JD's guide, despite the knockers, snobs and egos got me to AG brewing. And it got me to the stage of understanding what in practice = what in theory and understanding how they work. I didn't understand mash temps when I first used the guide, but I do understanding the difference mash temps make now. But it's this constant learning and practicing that works.



> I think your maths is a tad off . I do 10L batches and get a bit over 1 case worth of beer. (10L / 330ml = 30 beers or if using 375ml = 26 beers). Although I agree it is a lot of effort for a case, it doesn't quite take 1/2 weekend! I can knock over the mash/boil in a couple of hours. I have even done it a couple of times at night after work, spending all the mashing/boiling time cooking dinner and watching TV. Bottling 1 case worth only takes about an hour now I am used to it.
> 
> It is definitely for experimenting only though, once I get some good recipes down I will move to making them in full batches. The reason I only do 1/2 batches now is cause there is nothing worse than making 2 1/2 cases worth of beer that is so bitter even your mates won't drink it. Trust me I know from experience!
> 
> I like your 2 pot idea for full batches. Ill definitely give that a shot soon.



Sorry, i was doing maths on 9 bottles (ie. 18 stubbies, 2/3 batch), not 9L (12 bottles = 24 stubbies = slab). My apologies.

I've been bottling for 12 years and anything to make it more time efficient or bottle more in less time, I will and have done it. Actually, bottling a 12 bottle batch is really simple. But spending the 3 or 3.5 hours (depending on mash and boil times) is a big effort for 9L of beer.

Experimenting, as above - I've had some graduate to fullsize batches. Great for experimenting and perfect when you have 2 pots to do 2 experiment batches at the same time and great for being creative.

At the moment, I'm playing with SMASH beers at the moment, just to play with different hop types and I'm happy to do a fullsizer with that - because it a really simple process - nothing too concerning as I've done nothing over the top taste wise.

Sorry for the long post.


----------



## Spork

Great thread. 
Just new to brewing and thought I'd be doing kits and bits for quite a while.
This has me thinking though. Can it really be so simple?
Might try a BIAB much sooner than I had thought. 
Sort of been looking for an excuse to get a 2nd fermenter, even if it's just a 15 litre one. Already have thermometer, gas burner ans suitable overhead beam to put a pulley on...

One question though.
Is whats posted in the first few pages all thats needed for this brew? Hops, grain, water and yeast? No need to add sugar / LME or other fermentables unless I want to raise the OG?


----------



## bum

Spork said:


> One question though.
> Is whats posted in the first few pages all thats needed for this brew? Hops, grain, water and yeast? No need to add sugar / LME or other fermentables unless I want to raise the OG?


Dude. This is like the most chopped down version possible. If you tl;dr on this one you should think about sticking with the tins a bit longer.


----------



## kelbygreen

No, AG is all grain which is all grain. Malt extract is made from malted barley or grain then it goes threw a process to extract the water. AG is using malted barley but you mash it and you make the wort to the right OG so you ont have to turn it into liquid malt or dry malt you use the malt from the grains its the same malt they use but heavily unprocessed


----------



## Bribie G

Beer: Malted grain, hops, water, yeast, polenta.

Forget the polenta for now, I'll tell you later h34r: 

It's what's been happening since


----------



## Spork

Thanks bum, read the first 10 or so pages, couldn't see anything else strictly related to the "recipe" so I jumped to the end. I thought it was probably the case (that no other fermentables needed to be added) but I wanted to double check is all. Also, I'm stone cold sober (SWMBO's idea) at the moment, so my attention span for 27 page threads might be affected. 
ps: got another "tin" in the post, so won't be doing an "AG" until I have at least 2 K&K's to my name.


----------



## RdeVjun

Spork said:


> Is whats posted in the first few pages all thats needed for this brew? Hops, grain, water and yeast? No need to add sugar / LME or other fermentables unless I want to raise the OG?


Yep, that's it. Well, after you get the kettle and BIAB bag that is, then with those very ingredients- it is indeed an all- grain method. In some circles it might be considered a bit of a sawn- off, however principles are principles... :icon_cheers: 
A limitation with this particular method (i.e. this guide) is that it yields about 10- 12L of beer, however there's ways to up that to 20- odd L with relative ease. Link below and search for the Maxi-BIAB variation, alternatively 20L Stovetop should get you there. 
Having said that, there's nothing wrong with small batches to begin with, there's nothing quite as disappointing as drinking our way through a whole 23L batch of crap AG beer... :angry:

Edit: Ah Polenta- Our favourite adjunct- Goes well with grits for breakfast!


----------



## mh971

RdeVjun said:


> .......In some circles it might be considered a bit of a sawn- off, however principles are principles......



I like that some may consider it the sawn-off approach, in fact i'm thanking you for the term RdeVjun, i'll use that. Given that there are some big award winners in the BIAB ranks it shows a sawn off gets the job done like anything else.


If it hadn't been for this thread I wouldn't have started AG ( many thanks Nick). After reading it I bought my $20 big W pot, grabbed a couple of metres of voile from spotlight (still use it as a flat square - no need to get fancy and sew it) and gave this a crack, and have never looked back.

The only other single step I made that improved my beer by this degree was introducing temperature control. If you want to make good beer you need to have a plan of how you will maintain desired ferment temp for the style you're brewing - this is easier for some depending on geographical location and fermeter location. I have to use a temp controller and an old fridge.


----------



## felten

Spork said:


> Great thread.
> Just new to brewing and thought I'd be doing kits and bits for quite a while.
> This has me thinking though. Can it really be so simple?
> Might try a BIAB much sooner than I had thought.
> Sort of been looking for an excuse to get a 2nd fermenter, even if it's just a 15 litre one. Already have thermometer, gas burner ans suitable overhead beam to put a pulley on...
> 
> One question though.
> Is whats posted in the first few pages all thats needed for this brew? Hops, grain, water and yeast? No need to add sugar / LME or other fermentables unless I want to raise the OG?


The process of mashing is just as simple as outlined in the OP, if you follow the instructions completely. The steep learning curve comes in with understanding the various ingredients, all the complex physical and chemical changes going on, and how/why it actually works so you don't **** it all up if you alter something.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

don't forget to add some whirlfloc, Irish moss or koppafloc at the end of the boil as per the directions on the pack, it will help dropping any nasties out and leave them in the kettle.

As another poster has suggested getting tempreture control as soon as you can even if your still doing kits, yeast can produce strange flavours when under stress!!

How To Brew is another great resource.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Two things I see with this thread (which helped me get started):

1. It demystifies the physical process of getting wort from grain and makes one realise that powdered/liquid malt is only mashed grain that has been reduced. So it takes away the scariness of that; and

2. You will get the result if you follow it, and from there, it is way easier to piece together the theory. As felten said, you can treat it like a connect the dots to get the picture, and you'll get the result from that recipe, but if you want to construct your own recipes, you need to understand the theory. However, it is considerably easier to understand the theory if you've done a bit of the prac. Concept to practice becomes easier to connect.

And as bob said - temp control is the most important thing in the whole process. My confidence took a battering over summer, because I'd never brewed in summer before and hadn't realised how much nasty flavours the summer heat (even in an airconditioned house) produced. 

I've just bottled a pale ale last night that smells normal and has had cooler temps applied to it, and hoping it tastes as good as it smells, because you don't like to feel like you've made progress, only to feel like you are making irreversible mistakes.

Get an STC-1000 from ebay, an old fridge, wire it up (or get an electrician mate to do it as I have). Keep the yeast in its ideal range. Yeast is the most important ingredient, as it is yeast that converts wort to beer.

Goomba


----------



## alizzan

Agreed, Raja.

I just did my first partial last night, and while I didn't get the efficiency I had hoped, the entire process was so much easier thanks to Nick's method. I would really like to see it make it to the articles section, as I think that if there's anything that will get people to make the switch from K&K/Extract brewing like I did, it's this article. That, and Nick has a wicked sense of humour. I'm looking forward to trying a full AG with this and seeing how DrSmurto's GA turns out.


----------



## chrs24

Hi Guys,

I've been doing this this morning. I've just boiled the wort and have added the simcoe @ 10:22am AEST. 

Just a quick query, do I leave the gas stove at full ball to keep the rolling boil or can it go down alittle?

I assume the lid should be on to keep bad stuff out, pictures have it off to actually see inside I assume?

If i'm boiling it for an hour, what stops it evaporating? 

Thanks guys!


----------



## Tim F

It's better to keep it at a nice rolling boil if you can, and leave the lid off. You will lose some to evaporation, just a fact of life - people factor that in when calculating volume. Here's a link with some more on why you boil uncovered: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS


----------



## chrs24

Much appreciated, thank you!

*runs to the kitchen to tap the lid off*


----------



## Spork

Just ordered the ingredients, and a few other bits and pieces, from one of the site sponsors.


----------



## yum beer

Ordered my stuff today, brew next Friday if all goes to plan...fingers crossed.


----------



## Spork

So while that's coming up to temp (aiming for just over 70C) lets get the hops sorted. Here's 10g of Simcoe, a good hop for bittering. 
And about 7g of Riwaka (or D Saaz) for some flavour - we'll add this later in the boil.

I notice you use Simcoe pellets, and Saaz leafs / flowers.
I could only get Simcoe flowers and Saaz pellets.
Do I need to adjust quantities or times to account for this, or are they essentially the same?


----------



## manticle

Rule of thumb - 10% more flowers by weight (dried) than pellets, at least as far as bittering goes. Many brewing software programs will adjust for you.


----------



## Spork

Thanks Manticle. So, 11g Simcoe flowers instead of 10g pellets. Do I reduce the D Saaz (pellets) by 10% also? 6.3g?
Just trying the changes in BrewMate, I guess whatever gets closest to the original IBU.
The original gives 40.2 IBU's.
With mine (11 and 6.3) it gives 40.3 IBU's. Close enough.


----------



## kelbygreen

nop keep flavour the same.


----------



## mh971

Legendary OP.

I wonder how many people this has got into AG


----------



## bum

Spork said:


> I could only get Simcoe flowers



Where from?


----------



## argon

bum said:


> Where from?


Precisely my thoughts... Can't be US Simcoe?


----------



## Spork

/blushes.
Got that arse about didn't I. :unsure: 
Simcoe pellets - check.
Saaz flowers - check.
Oops. original recipe it is then.


----------



## argon

Carry on


----------



## Bribie G

Mick71 said:


> Legendary OP.
> 
> I wonder how many people this has got into AG


I was talking with RdeVjun on Thursday about the way AG has developed - particularly in the UK (we were discussing Dave Line's books). In the UK nearly every brewer started off with a Ritchie BruHeat electric boiler, 




for which a snug grain bag was developed and sold as an extra. Because the Bruheat can only handle 4 gallons or so it wasn't any use as a full-volume-water method, you had to do a sparge and the bag was only ever regarded as a way of disposing of the spent grain afterwards without having to spend fifteen minutes digging the grain out with a scoop whatever. 
Dave Line almost made the mental leap, why not hoist the bag..... almost.  

If that had happened back in the 70s then the Maxi Biab as practiced by Nick and RdeV would have - I bet - become really the default method of doing AG at home. I used to do a full pressure barrel (around 20L ) brew in a bedsit boiling the bruheat on a toilet seat with the window open. B) and it was dead simple.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

.... got me into AG.

What about the bastardised methods of BIAB (which I have one of)? It caused a bit of a debate with Pistolpatch and the like as to what was true BIAB.

I think the big thing is, subtleties over method aside, is that it gets people using true grain, hops, yeast and water to make beer (and polenta h34r: for bribie, rice for me). It introduces concepts such as mash temp, sparging, boil times and the like (I couldn't be bothered listing them all).

Regardless of what it is, this is true AG brewing - it contains all the factors that make it so - regardless of the tools used. And proves that making fermented barley juice with hops isn't as hard as some would like to make it seem.

Goomba


----------



## Nick JD

Funny thing about the original recipe was exactly zero thought went into it, as what I wanted was to use a broad range of ingredients - to showcase a dark malt, a crystal malt, a dextrin malt, hop pellets, hop flowers ... and of course a base malt. To let the new AGer see most of the usual ingredients in one batch.

The beer comes out okay, but I never thought so many people would copy the _actual recipe._ It's pretty obvious now most would. 

Glad to hear people are still getting something from this thread. 

I'm using a variation of this method still (16-18L batches) and today making what has become my house lager. 

16L
3.3kg Weyermann Boh Pils
0.1kg Melanoidin
23g Hallertau 60min
37g Hallertau 20min
S189 @ 12C raised 1.5C every 2 days.


----------



## Deebo

Thanks for the instructions Nick JD. After about 5 years of kit brewing (only occasional partial mashes) this has finally convinced me to give AG a go.

I still need to find a couple of big pots or possibly a crown urn but I have a couple of questions regarding the process for anyone knowledgable. 

I have downloaded brewmate and made this recipe http://www.brewmate.net/recipes/iSpvz9wVFZCJZZnmwN3e.xml. I know its pretty far from a traditional pilsner, I really just want to make a lager with some nelson sauvin hops as I have them available and quite like the knappstein lager (I did find a recipe for knappstein using search, http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=518454, but wanted to keep to just a few grains and keep it fairly light in colour)

Questions:
1). If I only manage to get a 20L pot or urn how would I adjust the recipe to a different volume? (I have only just started trying out brewmate today so excuse my ignorance in using it, perhaps this is a simple setting that I adjust, trying to change strike water volume didnt seem to work for me)
Do I just use less water in the mash / boil and top it up when I put it in the fermenter? (or is this going to throw out the efficiency?) I noticed in the 20l recipe you just used 12L of water and 6L in the other pot for sparging)

2). Do I chuck the whirlfloc in with the hops at 15 min? 
Or once the hops time are up pull them out and then put in the whirlfloc and wait 15 minutes ? (does putting whirlfloc and a time into the spreadsheet actually do anything other than just remind me? Is the time just to work out evaporation?)

3). Any suggestions on the recipe regarding hop addition times or the ammount of grains? (I do have some cascade which I did think about adding but not sure on which hops to add and when)
Will 500g carapils add too much body for a lager?


----------



## kelbygreen

OK 1 I found beersmith good for me enter your equiptment in there. For me 32lt mash tun 19lt pot. Put in a single infusion mash of 13lts and it will calculate the sparge (make sure its a singe sparge). You have to top the fermenter up as you are doing a 21lt batch in a 19lt pot so you will boil down to about 16lts. beersmith works it all out for you, With BIAB I find you get more mash liqueur then traditional methods as you are hanging it to drain. but might only be couple of lts while the brew is getting to boil drain the grain and add it once or after boil starts it wont matter. set your efficiency to 67% I got 65% first few brews but get 70% now so thats a happy medium.

put half a tablet of whirfloc in 15 mins from the end of the boil so flame out is 0 min whirlfloc is 15mins. putting it into software does nothing but tell you its added. for brewsmith if I want a 21lt batch and expect 2lts of trub I set the batch size to 23lts and set the kettle loss to 0 

ok you got nelson sav and cascade do a APA style you can use eather with bittering, flavour and aroma but id go NS bittering and a mix for flavour and aroma


----------



## Spork

Did this recipe today. 
Made a couple of n00b mistakes though.
Decided to chill my wort and get things started. Chilled OK, but when I poured it into my FV a lot of the solid crap (trub?) went with it. Rather than waiting overnight for it to settle and try repouring I plunged ahead. I figure this crap will settle out during fermentation, otherwise I will add finings.
Next time, I'll wait longer for the solids to settle, or maybe filter. If my understanding is correct, whirlpooling would help if my stock pot had a tap, but not really any use when I'm just pouring from the pot.
My other n00b boob was with the yeast.
I thought to myself. 1/2 size batch, just use 1/2 the yeast and save the other 1/2 for the next (1/2 sized) batch. Fair enough, but how will I measure 1/2 of this foil packet I think to myself. I grab my 500ml pyrex jug and sterilise with boiling water and tip it upside down to drain / dry. It obviously didn't dry enough by ther time I measured 1/2 the yeast (using some scales) into it, as a fair bit of the yeast stuck to it when I went to tip it into the FV. As the jug was sanitised, I poured some wort in via the tap on the FV, swirled it around, and poured this back into the FV. Didn't seem to move the yeast, it was still stuck in the jug.
Hope I didn't contaminate my beer. If I did, live and learn.
Hope I didn't "underpitch". Still have 1/2 a sachet though if it isn't doing anything tomorrow.
Given all that, the wort tasted good, the hops especially had some nice flavours, and although it was all a bit sweet I guess fermentation will remove most of the sugary tastes. It's now fermenting @ 17.5 - 18.5c. I had some fun. I learned a bit. I may have even made a drinkable beer!


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

kelbygreen said:


> <snip>
> ok you got nelson sav and cascade do a APA style you can use eather with bittering, flavour and aroma but id go NS bittering and a mix for flavour and aroma



I'd go with cascade at 60 for bittering, not nelson, as 60m nelson I find can be harsh. I love Nelson, but find it really shines at 10-30 minutes.

My last pale ale was:

10g Nelson at 30m
20g Nelson at 10m
(I'd put in your cascade here) 30g cascade at 10m
Dry hop 20g cascade.

Good luck

Goomba


----------



## bignath

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> 60m nelson I find can be harsh. I love Nelson, but find it really shines at 10-30 minutes.



I agree. I use NS alot, and my hop schedule when using it (admittedly as a SMaSH beer) goes along the lines of:

20lt batch:

15g @ 30min
10g @ 15min
10g @ 0min

Dry Hop w/ 20g @ 7days.

Cracker of a hop if it's not overdone!


----------



## Nevalicious

Mick71 said:


> Legendary OP.
> 
> I wonder how many people this has got into AG




Right here... This along with alot of other reading got me AG'ing for sure

Pictures are worth a thousand words... Big ups to NickJD

Nev


----------



## Hubert

Mick71 said:


> Legendary OP.
> 
> I wonder how many people this has got into AG



Another convert here. Was doing k&k for about 6 months. Did my first AG a couple of weekends ago, had a fair bit of loss through the boil and ended up with a light (3.1%) beer. Second attempt last weekend was much better. Used a red bucket for the sparge and the expected ABV is around 6%. 
Process will take time to get used to, but it has made the transition to AG soooooooo easy. 

Thanks again for the destructions Nick JD.


----------



## bnaujok

Mick71 said:


> Legendary OP.
> 
> I wonder how many people this has got into AG



Me too (on second ever brew). :icon_cheers:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Big Nath said:


> I agree. I use NS alot, and my hop schedule when using it (admittedly as a SMaSH beer) goes along the lines of:
> 
> 20lt batch:
> 
> 15g @ 30min
> 10g @ 15min
> 10g @ 0min
> 
> Dry Hop w/ 20g @ 7days.
> 
> Cracker of a hop if it's not overdone!



Absolutely. I find that if you are really conservative, it can behave with other hops, but generally works well by itself. I find that Bairds Perle works better than Pilsner malts with it.

Recently used it with Citra (23g leftover at 10m) and it was a cracker. Dry hopped with a tiny bit of leftover saaz and tettnanger.

My freezer is never empty of Nelson - NEVER!

Goomba


----------



## Spork

Had a taste of mine today when checking the gravity. I think it's finished! SG 1.013. Smells great, tastes pretty bloody good too! Not as clear as I'd like, but I put that down to some errors on brewday, which I will learn from and hopefully avoid next time. This time round, some gelatine may be in order, but I'll see how it looks in another week when it's due for bottling. Racking and / or crash chilling are other too options I suppose.


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## colonel

Well, after reading this thread 30 times (thanks Nick!), I finally got with the program and had a go.

Pretty well followed the method exactly, although perhaps not as neatly (I had shit going everywhere).

Only 8 degrees in the shed, but the LPG burner worked fine.

Seems like a good way to have a first crack at AG.

Big thanks to NickJD for posting this thread, and all the constructive posts from then on.

Cheers


----------



## colonel

Further to my last post, when I poured it into the fermenter, I noticed that I only had 6 litres!

Thinking that that was a lot of mucking around for 3 drinks, I made a midnight decision to bung in another 2 litres of tap water before pitching the yeast.

Have I done wrong?

(before I did this, the sg was 1.070, and after adding water, it was 1.064)

Anyone have any comments?


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Get hold of brew mate, there is a dilution calculation tool in one of the menus there. It'll let you know how much water you can whack in there.

I'd be aiming for 1.048, so you'll have some water to add. 1.064 is nice, but if you used nick's recipe, probably not what you're looking for.

Goomba


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## Nick JD

If you want to dilute in the fermenter, here's the maths.

Say you have 7L of 1.062 ... but you want a 1.047 beer ...

...how much water do you need to add? Or rather, _what's the volume of this batch?_

Here's the formula:

*current gravity* divided by *target gravity* multiplied by *current volume*

(62/47) x 7 = 9.23

So you need to top up your 7L to 9.23L to have a batch that's 1.047.


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## Paleman

Been reading this thread from the start, bloody fantastic. I just realised it was a few years old but great reading.

I dabbled quite a bit in partial mashing, doing mini full mashes is just as easy.

Will have a crack for sure.


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## colonel

Thanks Nick.

So, if I followed your recipe/method, and was left with only 6 litres, I assume I should have just had a gentle simmer going?

Or, would it be better to to have a full rolling boil, but start with more water (15 litres for example)?



Nick JD said:


> If you want to dilute in the fermenter, here's the maths.
> 
> Say you have 7L of 1.062 ... but you want a 1.047 beer ...
> 
> ...how much water do you need to add? Or rather, _what's the volume of this batch?_
> 
> Here's the formula:
> 
> *current gravity* divided by *target gravity* multiplied by *current volume*
> 
> (62/47) x 7 = 9.23
> 
> So you need to top up your 7L to 9.23L to have a batch that's 1.047.


----------



## Nick JD

colonel said:


> Thanks Nick.
> 
> So, if I followed your recipe/method, and was left with only 6 litres, I assume I should have just had a gentle simmer going?
> 
> Or, would it be better to to have a full rolling boil, but start with more water (15 litres for example)?



Adding a few jugs of boiling water at the start of the boil will both speed up the time to get to boil, and dilute it to a better starting SG. Add water until it's around 1.040. Of course, stop before around 15L, or you'll have a boil-over issue.

You always want a "rolling boil". Worry about hitting volumes and that sort of thing once you've done a few more. There aren't many problems with boiling a higher SG (as long as you allow for slightly more hops), and some of the "problems" can actually make for a nicer beer by increasing the "maltiness" and the colour. Aim to evaporate at least 10%, more if you are using lager malts.

Experiment. Check out some of the popular recipes in the database here and scale them down to what you can do. It's through doing that you'll get knowing.  Small batches educate brewers much faster than big ones.


----------



## colonel

Nick JD said:


> Adding a few jugs of boiling water at the start of the boil will both speed up the time to get to boil, and dilute it to a better starting SG. Add water until it's around 1.040. Of course, stop before around 15L, or you'll have a boil-over issue.
> 
> You always want a "rolling boil". Worry about hitting volumes and that sort of thing once you've done a few more. There aren't many problems with boiling a higher SG (as long as you allow for slightly more hops), and some of the "problems" can actually make for a nicer beer by increasing the "maltiness" and the colour. Aim to evaporate at least 10%, more if you are using lager malts.
> 
> Experiment. Check out some of the popular recipes in the database here and scale them down to what you can do. It's through doing that you'll get knowing.  Small batches educate brewers much faster than big ones.


Ok, thanks for that.


----------



## String

First go at BIAB last night using this method and a 19l Big W pot.
Ended up with 15 litres of 1.061 beer, aiming for 1.049 for the CPA clone in the receipe DB.
So overall 19L of beer after dilution and the starter.

I think I lost some efficiency with the sparge. After dunking the bag in the sparge water and draining, the sparge water seemed to barely take any more sugar out of the bag, looking like very weak tea.
I got much more concentrated liqour out by sitting the bag in a colander over the pot and squashing it with the potato masher.


----------



## 1974Alby

Just spent all aftenoon putting down my first All Grain brew inspired by this thread... thought all was going well until I went to transfer from cooled 19L pot to fermentor, there was a big weird looking ring, a bit like a massive fairy floss doughnut below the surface of the wort. Couldnt manage to prevent it from pouring into the fermentor so filtered through a sieve and voile...made no diffeence as nothing was left behind in the seive or voile, except some hop flowers right at the end (I stopped pouring as the first of these entered the seive as I was getting down to the bottom litre or two.

So what was the big fluffy ring? and is it really bad that it made it into my fermentor?...I must say after spending 5 hours to get about 7 litres of 1047 wort in the fermentor the beer better taste pharkin good. Not sure if i will bother with this again with the grief it caused...still gotta clean up too so it hasnt stopped yet!

Im really bummed, was on a high that I had done an All Grain but now think Ive stuffed it and wasted a day.


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## Nevalicious

Albainian said:


> Just spent all aftenoon putting down my first All Grain brew inspired by this thread... thought all was going well until I went to transfer from cooled 19L pot to fermentor, there was a big weird looking ring, a bit like a massive fairy floss doughnut below the surface of the wort. Couldnt manage to prevent it from pouring into the fermentor so filtered through a sieve and voile...made no diffeence as nothing was left behind in the seive or voile, except some hop flowers right at the end (I stopped pouring as the first of these entered the seive as I was getting down to the bottom litre or two.
> 
> So what was the big fluffy ring? and is it really bad that it made it into my fermentor?...I must say after spending 5 hours to get about 7 litres of 1047 wort in the fermentor the beer better taste pharkin good. Not sure if i will bother with this again with the grief it caused...still gotta clean up too so it hasnt stopped yet!
> 
> Im really bummed, was on a high that I had done an All Grain but now think Ive stuffed it and wasted a day.



That fluffy doughnut looking thing sounds like it would've been hotbreak or coldbreak. Doesn't matter it went into the fermentor. Leave it be, it'll settle out with the yeast and other stuff at the end of fermentation..

Too easy

Nev


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## Bribie G

Most likely cold break. If you'd swirled it then let it settle for a few hours it would have sunk to the bottom. However cold break doesn't affect the flavour of the beer and as nev said it sinks out with the yeast and hop materials anyway.


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## RdeVjun

Albanian, its a pity you stopped pouring- I've found that in a colander the whole hops flowers make a reasonable filter bed for the remainder of the break material, so I use them quite a lot (or hops plugs) and pour the whole lot through. There's probably a big can worms that could be opened about whether break materials are desirable in the fermenter, however I've decided to remain objective- some reasonable competitive results demonstrated sufficiently to me that the flowers/ colander method evidently removes _enough_ break, plus there's no obvious flavour faults, oh and I've quite enjoyed the beers myself!
Now, I'll also remind listeners that MaxiBIAB, which is the method I'm using, is slightly different to the one here- it is largely about filling a fermenter from a 19L stockpot, so the loss of a couple of litres of concentrated wort is quite undesirable, hence the effort to recover as much as possible. However, there's no reason why it wouldn't help with brew length here, but failing that, remember the lost kettle trub wort can be strained and re-boiled to recover it for yeast starters.
Oh, and to answer your question, as per Nev and Bribie, that fairy floss sort of material is normal, it would be break, most likely the cold variety and largely harmless. So relax, you've done well and congratulations on your first AG! :icon_cheers:


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## 1974Alby

well thats a relief!..RdeVjun, I stopped pouring as the break material had already largely entered the fermentor before the first hop flower entered the seive...so I figured they would do a lousy job of forming a filter bed as most of the [email protected] had already gone through.. The whole reason I used some flowers in the boils was that I had read they make a good filter bed when using a seive...but they cant do any filtering when they enter the seive too late?


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## RdeVjun

A fair query Albanian, I'm not suggesting flowers in the boil will capture _all_ of the kettle trub, that they certainly will not do, but _enough_ of it is trapped when poured through a colander. Most of the trub that comes through before the flowers arrive and form the filter matrix seems to be cold break, IMO that's fairly benign, the coarser break material and other hops debris that is usually mixed up with the flowers is the stuff that I'm more concerned about. I'd be sure to use enough flowers too, I use a minimum of two plugs, so 28g, often quite a lot more, but the colander needs to be big enough to capture them without overflowing, sometimes a second pour to filter the remainder is required after the first colander- full has drained.
This issue did concern me to begin with as it may be contrary to conventional wisdom, but as I say though, the actual results have been more than satisfying. B) 
Hope your first AG is a cracker! :icon_cheers:


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## Nick JD

Albainian - with this method (and any other method of slow-chilling the wort) it's best not to leave any hops in the pot while it's cooling, as these hops will be adding to the overall bitterness while the pot is still hot enough to extract bitterness compounds. 

If you sped up the chill using an ice bath then no worries. 

Again (broken record), this method is not meant to be something anyone does regularly. It's a teaching method ... like teaching someone to ride a motorcycle ... this is a 50cc scooter. If you crash, there's less blood, and you're more likely to get back on the proverbial brewing horse. 

There's two kinds of break material in the pot if you "slow kettle chill". The hotbreak forms in the pot when it's boiling (all those cooked eggwhite flecks). They settle first, as soon as you turn the heat off. This is handy because they _go to the bottom_. The cold break forms as it's cooling. Cold break will land on top of the hot break (or as you found, sometimes it floats ethereally like a jellyfish). Hot break looks like cottage cheese, hot break looks like yoghurt - which is essentially what they are - BARLEY TOFU.

When you pour, don't worry when the yoghurty cold break goes in. Stop when the cottage cheese hot break starts going in. The hot break has fat in it, you don't want that in your beer. Cold break - no worries.

If your hotbreak does go in (I've poured the lot in before to see what happens) it's not really that much of a problem - still tastes great - just not perfect.


----------



## chug!chug!

Nick JD said:


> Albainian - with this method (and any other method of slow-chilling the wort) it's best not to leave any hops in the pot while it's cooling, as these hops will be adding to the overall bitterness while the pot is still hot enough to extract bitterness compounds.



I was planning to add hops to my slow chilling kettle as I have read it would be equivalent to a twenty minute addition? Would it be better to add them at the end of the boil
then whirfloc?


----------



## Nick JD

chug!chug! said:


> I was planning to add hops to my slow chilling kettle as I have read it would be equivalent to a twenty minute addition? Would it be better to add them at the end of the boil
> then whirfloc?



If you're aware of the impacts of having hops in your slow chill then I reckon go for it.

If you're not, then I'd leave hops out of the slow chill until you're familiar with what this will do to the beer's flavour. There's a thread here somewhere on hopping in the no (slow) chill cube with all the numbers.


----------



## 1974Alby

Cheers Nick, I used a big sink and changed the water about three times and added a couple of trays of ice to each sinkful. probably took about 40min to get the pot down to pitching temp....

I like the analogy about the 50cc, makes sense. It is smelling good and I will no doubt try again, maybe a maxiBIAB, as it wouldnt be much more effort for a lot more beer..

.the reason this thirty buck thread appeals to me is it doesnt use brewing jargon and prattle on about 'efficiency' and which software package gives you what numbers. As soon as I start reading about brewmate and beersmith my eyes glaze over. Is it possible to do nice tasting BIAB brews without a computer?...I really dont get excited about efficeincy %, IBU, EBC etc ..just want to enjoy the beer. Am I alone is such a simple outlook on brewing?


----------



## Maheel

Albainian said:


> Is it possible to do nice tasting BIAB brews without a computer?...




yes i reckon it is sometime using the computer just gives you more things to worry about that may not be "helping" you

i find you can make very good beer even stuffing up half the recipe  
get the recipe right and you will have even better beer. 


best way is to mash in and see what happens :icon_cheers:


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I think the big thing to realise with computers is that the "flavour" versus "real bitterness" isn't in the calculation. You could add a motherload of hops at 10m, it'd read as a really high IBU, but not feel (from the taste) to be that way.

Yet, you could add a small amount of hops at 60mins and the bitterness is certainly there, and not flavour.

I found initially that I was using the program to construct a beer to x ibu, but not taking into account the timing and the effect it has.

Get that bit sorted, my house APA/AAA has the same standard time additions, if I whack a bit of cara-something in, the longer addition is increased in quantity of hops just a little to compensate. This "feel" is only experience, no computer program can give you that bit.

Goomba


----------



## Nick JD

Albainian said:


> Is it possible to do nice tasting BIAB brews without a computer?



Yes, but an online IBU calculator and a strike temp calculator are essential for formulating a recipe to hit your bitterness/flavour/aroma targets; and mash target. 

IMO, the best way to get to supurb beers is to follow the styles. It's really tempting to make up your own "fusion" beers, like a wheatbeer stout with apple cores and eye of newt - but that stuff will work way better for you once you know the road a little better. Thing is, there's so many styles and variations on them, that you'll never exahust the _proven recipes_. Recipes proven over hundreds of years by people who've done all the cauldron bubbling for us.

Get yourself a copy of this:

http://www.bjcp.org/docs/2008_Guidelines.pdf

It almost describes the recipes of all the world's classic beers without giving you the exact recipe. A quick google search will give you the exact recipe most of the time. Scaling them down or up is pretty easy.


----------



## argon

Nick JD said:


> IMO, the best way to get to supurb beers is to follow the styles. It's really tempting to make up your own "fusion" beers, like a wheatbeer stout with apple cores and eye of newt - but that stuff will work way better for you once you know the road a little better. Thing is, there's so many styles and variations on them, that you'll never exahust the _proven recipes_. Recipes proven over hundreds of years by people who've done all the cauldron bubbling for us.



totally agree with this... i've probably wandered from style guidelines less than a handful of times and of those probably only half have been any good. I'm yet to understand or nail any particular style, so i like to brew to style as closely as i can.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

+3 - BribieG put it best a while ago when he said that every new brewer starts out wanting to make an American Pale Hefe Saison Robust Lambic Extra Special Porter Alt Bock Pilsner Weiss and then changes even that specific recipe to something else.

I've learned (the hard way) - find a style, have a plan of attack and go for it. If you must combine 2 styles as something interesting, have in mind exactly why you want (like I want to do a RottRoggenweizen - but I know what I want to achieve very specifically with my additions, what the IBU should be, what I must do to get there). 

Usually I do APA/AAA with the same sort of additions hop and malt wise and nail it with my eyes closed.

This is why many have a "house beer" - something they can knock out, tried and tested, for regular drinking. The experimentals are "surplus supply", so you don't end up with nothing but a weird experiment to drink in the fridge/keg.

Goomba


----------



## flano

Probably a dumb question here.

Is there any reason why you can't just pour some fresh cold water (a few litres ) into the fermeter . Then pour your just boiled wort onto that then top up the rest of the fermenter with cold water? 

I assume it would bring the temp down pretty quick plus save you having to wait for the wort to cool normally.

Is it better to cool the wort as quickly as possible?


----------



## Nick JD

beernorks said:


> Is it better to cool the wort as quickly as possible?



Yes, I think it is better. But only by an amount so small it's not worth bothering with.

What you've suggested has issues due to volumes. Unless you boil your wort down to what is essentially a K&K volume (3-4L) for a 23L batch, the resulting temperature will be too warm for yeast ... and just about right for nasties.

Clean ice would be a better option. 

Personally, I prefer putting a layer of gladwrap over the pot and sitting it on some cold concrete for 12 hours.


----------



## flano

Nick JD said:


> Personally, I prefer putting a layer of gladwrap over the pot and sitting it on some cold concrete for 12 hours.




ok cheers.
I will just keep doing it the same way.
So far I have been cruising along with no hiccups just using your technique.


----------



## chunckious

beernorks said:


> ok cheers.
> I will just keep doing it the same way.
> So far I have been cruising along with no hiccups just using your technique.



So how has the beer tasting using this technique?


----------



## Nick JD

Check out the method lots of stovetop people use - filling the laundry with ice (or those esky cooler blocks) and putting the pot in. 

I've done it before, but it takes a while and makes the brew day way longer. 

Also, why not give no-chilling a go? Just need to find a well-sealing container the same volume as your wort.


----------



## flano

Chunkious said:


> So how has the beer tasting using this technique?




good.
I have been doing variations of dr smurtos JSGA plus the one in this thread.
I have been mucking around with different hops and grain amounts.


----------



## beerdrinkingbob

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> This is why many have a "house beer" - something they can knock out, tried and tested, for regular drinking. The experimentals are "surplus supply", so you don't end up with nothing but a weird experiment to drink in the fridge/keg.



Well said Goomba, been there done that!!


----------



## String

String said:


> First go at BIAB last night using this method and a 19l Big W pot.
> Ended up with 15 litres of 1.061 beer, aiming for 1.049 for the CPA clone in the receipe DB.
> So overall 19L of beer after dilution and the starter.
> 
> I think I lost some efficiency with the sparge. After dunking the bag in the sparge water and draining, the sparge water seemed to barely take any more sugar out of the bag, looking like very weak tea.
> I got much more concentrated liqour out by sitting the bag in a colander over the pot and squashing it with the potato masher.



So I've moved up slightly, and scored one of the 40 litre crab cookers from Rays outdoors.
I'm going to make a Dr Smurtos Golden Ale on Thursday and wanted to double check some techniques.

I think I lost some efficiency with the sparge on my last batch, and talking to some other people, they think I may have some problems with atringency from squeezing the grain bag to get out more sugar.

My sparge with the last batch looked like REALLy weak tea, single dunk of a teabag brew. With a larger pot, I don't need to sparge do I?


----------



## RdeVjun

String said:


> So I've moved up slightly, and scored one of the 40 litre crab cookers from Rays outdoors.
> I'm going to make a Dr Smurtos Golden Ale on Thursday and wanted to double check some techniques.
> 
> I think I lost some efficiency with the sparge on my last batch, and talking to some other people, they think I may have some problems with atringency from squeezing the grain bag to get out more sugar.
> 
> My sparge with the last batch looked like REALLy weak tea, single dunk of a teabag brew. With a larger pot, I don't need to sparge do I?


Short answer- No, for a 23L brewlength you won't need to sparge in the 40L crab cooker, you should be able to Full- Volume BIAB or at least come very, very close.

I am not sure everyone sparges a BIAB by the same method, so it is a bit hard to generalise, however I'll get the equivalent of about 6L of beer out of it, so perhaps look at your method? Oh, and squeezing the bag is fine, your other friends are just hypothesising, I'd be more inclined to take the word of someone who does it and is more than pleased with the results, BTW so are the beer judges in comps. You don't need to squeeze the life out of it, just wind it up a bit and give it a gentle squeeze.


----------



## flano

My sparge water looks pretty diluted usually .
I think for me it is more a case of adding the sparge water so when I boil I don't boil the wort dry ..almost.
I fill my 19 lt pot to within a few inches from the top. To stop it boiling over...and just ditch the leftover sparge water.

I did my/a version of Dr Smurto's JSGA last friday and OG was 1052 .
from memory
3.5 JW trad
0.4 weyerman pale wheat
0.4 weyerman caramunich 1
0.25 JW caramalt
12 lts of water 
1 hr mash at approx 73 dgrs
sparge in 6 ltrs approx 76 dgrs for about 10 mins using a big spoon to prod the bag with.

90 min boil 
60 min 20 gr Saaz hop pellets
20 min 20 gr Amarillo
10 min 1/2 whirlfloc , 20 gr Amarillo, 10 gr dried navel orange rind and 1 teaspoon crushed corriander seed.

I have been told the orange and corriander shouldn't be used in this type of beer.
..but I did it last brew with cascade instead of the saaz and saaz instead of the Amarillo and it was bloody awesome.
I am not really sure if adding that stuff would have made much difference. 

My grain amounts are different to dr smurtos only because when I made it last time that was all I had left over..more or less.

anyway ...I don't think this making beer thing ( in the garage ) is as technically exact as I first thought.

oh ....sometimes I just couldn't be stuffed sparging at all.


----------



## Nick JD

73C was your strike temperature? Not the mash temperature?


----------



## flano

Nick JD said:


> 73C was your *strike* temperature? Not the mash temperature?



probably ..my brewing terminology is very limited.
started at approx 73. ..then put the bag and grain in and stirred the crap out of it for a minute or 2 and wrapped in blankets.
My thermometer is a bit dodgy. bewteen 70 and 75 is a bit of guess work.
Need a precise one...the one I have is for sticking in lumps of meat I think.
and hour later ( mash out?? ) it was 66 .

no good?


----------



## Nick JD

beernorks said:


> probably ..my brewing terminology is very limited.
> started at approx 73. ..then put the bag and grain in and stirred the crap out of it for a minute or 2 and wrapped in blankets.
> My thermometer is a bit dodgy. bewteen 70 and 75 is a bit of guess work.
> Need a precise one...the one I have is for sticking in lumps of meat I think.
> and hour later ( mash out?? ) it was 66 .
> 
> no good?



_Strike_ temperature is the water temperature before you put your grain in. 73C is good. It's advisable to use a *Strike Calculator* if you don't use brewing software.

Your mash was probably 67C dropping to 66C. No worries there.

Had you _mashed_ at 73C you'd be in trouble.

If you're making tasty beer then it's all good. The lowest you want to mash at is about 62C; the highest, about 69C. You can go lower and higher than this, but there's not much point. 

66C is a good mid-point that'll get you a nice rounded beer. Under 65C will give you a dry beer with more alcohol. Above 68C and it'll end with a high FG, be low alcohol and really malty. You can use mash temperature to adjust the beer to what you want - a couple of degrees either way makes for a quite different beer - so it's good to have a reliable thermometer. 

Easy to chek it's reliable. Cup of ice water (half ice) should read 0C; boiling water (as long as you don't live in the Snowy Mtns) should read 100C.


----------



## flano

Nick JD said:


> _Strike_ temperature is the water temperature before you put your grain in. 73C is good. It's advisable to use a *Strike Calculator* if you don't use brewing software.
> 
> Your mash was probably 67C dropping to 66C. No worries there.
> 
> Had you _mashed_ at 73C you'd be in trouble.




cheers mate,

yeah I think I may have had it a bit high a few times ....77-78 strike .
I have had a few with a very slight sour taste to the brew...it was usually just that basic lager you posted.
First few times it was fine ..I think I have been getting it too hot or that tap needs to be cleaned.

Tap cleaning this friday.

Thanks again.

geeze you must be owed some beers from this joint.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

As an addendum to Nick's method, and I willingly accede to his greater knowledge and experience, I thought I'd share a couple of shots of today's brew day and my altered stovetop method.

Why?

I do full sized (up to 30L) batches comfortably on the stove. Nick's method started me on doing AG BIAB-esque brewing, and I've altered it to do larger batches. This is handy when I know my house ale inside-out, and I just want to knock up some beer.

Advantages:

You can sparge (some say this is a disadvantage, but I like the increased efficiency).

Extra headspace (no boilovers)

Full sized batch

Good stepping stone if you don't want to pay for an urn, a bigger pot or Mongolian Burner.

Good if your space to brew is limited to your kitchen

Disadvantages:

Takes a little longer than the "true" BIAB method using an urn.

You can sparge (see above)

Requires a 2nd 19L big w pot (mine cost $12 on special)

What you need over and above Nick's method:

2nd big w pot

2 colanders and 2 receptacles for the sparged sugaz

What I do (differently to the Nick_JD method - I'm not going to outline the steps that are the same - I'm hoping that this is obvious):

Get my recipe into brewmate - I use the regular AG method (as I sparge), not the BIAB method setting.

Both pots are on the stove to get to strike temp (sorry for no pic, didn't think to do this until after), I'm doing single infusion, no mashout or anything else (though it is possible, given the extra headspace).

Material goes in (ignore later pic - I didn't put my piece in a gentle cycle, it got frayed and let out some grain - nothing a sieve doesn't fix).

Grain goes in, give it a good stir, put the lids on and insulate with doonas.

When mash is up, pick up each bag and put it into the designated colander sitting inside the receptacle so designated (piccy below):







(I took this after the sparge, but you get the idea).

Boil the kettle (or borrow another and run them concurrently to save time). Mine boils to 85 degrees, which according to brew mate is about perfect.

19L pots should be on the stove, working themselves up to boil temp.

Run the kettle over the bag of grain. Give the bag a bit of a squeeze. Return the sugaz back to the original pot. Repeat until you've sparged as much as brewmate says you should (in my case 17L all up, which means 8.5L per colander - this is the bit that increases the time. Having said that, it also increases the beer considerably, relative to 9L method)

Leave grain-bags in colander, as you will get a little leftover dregs to return during the boil:






By the time you have finished sparging, the boiling should be occurring:






(to all the experts, yes I will scrape that break off, but pictures first).

The rest is the same, boil for the required time, add the required hops (though split them into two and share the hop-love between the pots), whirflow, whirlpool, etc.

I do chill (in the sink, stir water around outside of pot, when it gets to about 40 degrees (I guess this), chuck in an ice brick or two into the water (not the wort) to bring it down to 20 degrees). Those that don't will find this method quicker than I do.

I hope this is of benefit to someone. It certainly makes great beer, though it does take longer than the other methods. It's the trade-off for cheapness. It'll probably add another 1/2 hour or so to the brew day, over an urn-based BIAB (the "true" BIAB if it's advocates are to be believed).

More importantly, it shows that any idiot (I'm their king) can apply a little ingenuity to a method, as befits their equipment and circumstances.

Cheers all, 

Goomba


----------



## Rosscoe

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> More importantly, it shows that any idiot (I'm their king) can apply a little ingenuity to a method, as befits their equipment and circumstances.




Nice job Goomba. I like your method. I was doing something very similar, although with 1 larger pot, adding a sparge to BIAB. I agree that with a little imagination you can easily adapt AG to your available equipment and circumstances. I have since evolved to a 3V system, which I do think makes life easier and allows for more flexibility, but it's all home made or adapted, and I'm still using a bag until I finish making the grain screen for my mash tun. I'm all about DIY and think that AG brewing shoulds be within the reach of everyone, not just those with a Braumeister sized budget.

Cheers,
Rosscoe


----------



## yandy5000

Bloody good work 

/cheer

BEST!
Yandy


----------



## yandy5000

A few places sell pre-made bags, I'm really happy with mine. Even though it is an urn shape, it works fine in an Esky, just tie it up and let it sit. A 47 litre cooler has done the trick for me. Pre-heat your water in your boiler, put it in the cooler and close it up. Then drain it back into the kettle after your mash is done, use gravity to run it. I liked that I didn't have to hoist the bag up, and drained off all the goodies leaving the crud. Coolers with drainage taps of course. A piece of tubing will do to direct your flow.

cheers,
Yandy


----------



## Salt

Ok, so Im pretty much all geared up for my first BIAB, which is based on this great thread...a 9Lt batch in my 19Lt pot using the exact methods described, but ingredients changed to suit my taste.

Here is what I came up with and after putting it in Brewmate, came out looking good. I have got all my gear sorted and grain is ordered. 


*Virgin BIAB*


*Recipe Specs*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 9.0
Total Grain (kg): 2.250
Total Hops (g): 50.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.055 (P): 13.6
Final Gravity (FG): 1.014 (P): 3.6
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.40 %
Colour (SRM): 7.9 (EBC): 15.5
Bitterness (IBU): 51.3 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

*Grain Bill*
----------------
2.000 kg Golden Promise Malt (88.89%)
0.100 kg Caramalt (4.44%)
0.100 kg Crystal 30 (4.44%)
0.050 kg Carahell (2.22%)

*Hop Bill*
----------------
10.0 g Centennial Pellet (9.7% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.1 g/L)
15.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (1.7 g/L)
15.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (1.7 g/L)
10.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil) (1.1 g/L) Dry Hop Day 5

*Misc Bill*
----------------

Single step Infusion at 67C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 18C with Safale US-05


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


----------



## RdeVjun

Nice one Salt, you're all set! :beerbang: 
One remark I'd make is the FG may perhaps end up lower, say between 1.010 and 1.012 but that wouldn't be a significant difference or a drastic impact. Also, its fairly bitter that recipe, but if you're planning for that degree of bitterness then that's cool, the malts' residual sweetness should buffer that to some extent plus bring their own character.
Hope it goes smoothly, let us know if you hit any strife. :icon_cheers:


----------



## loikar

Agree with RdeVjun

I would consider playing with your hop additions to get your IBU's around the 20-30 mark.
And maybe drop the crystal or Caramalt and up your GP.

But if your after a bitter beer that's a bit richer, go for it.


----------



## argon

I actually think that's a cracking recipe :super: ... might look bitter just by the numbers. But when you look at the crystal additions (at 11%) having the bitterness where it is @ 51IBU against 1056OG will give you a pretty tasty little IPA or hoppy APA.

In my opinion don't change a thing... but do keep an eye on your pre-boil gravity and adjust if you go over or under, so you get the IBU you want. Numbers are difficult to predict on your first attempt.

Edit: also just check your Hop AA% eg the latest Amarillo is 9.3% from Craftbrewers, wheras i have some at home @ 6.8%. Worth a second look on the packet and confirm in your software.


----------



## Salt

argon said:


> I actually think that's a cracking recipe :super: ... might look bitter just by the numbers. But when you look at the crystal additions (at 11%) having the bitterness where it is @ 51IBU against 1056OG will give you a pretty tasty little IPA or hoppy APA.
> 
> In my opinion don't change a thing... but do keep an eye on your pre-boil gravity and adjust if you go over or under, so you get the IBU you want. Numbers are difficult to predict on your first attempt.
> 
> Edit: also just check your Hop AA% eg the latest Amarillo is 9.3% from Craftbrewers, wheras i have some at home @ 6.8%. Worth a second look on the packet and confirm in your software.



The Amarillo I have is 8.2%...and Centennial is 9.2%...so overall that makes IBUs around 48ish.

I am after a hoppy beer...imo the hoppier the better, as long as its balanced nicely. Maybe its a bit high, but I love bitter/hoppy AIPAs/APAs.

I was hoping the crystal would balance it out...I know that more than 10% is getting up there.

Will definitely keep an eye on the pre-boil gravity. Take plenty of notes etc as I go. This is a huge learning curve for me as its my intro to AG. But why not brew a style that I like! 

Prob a couple of week's away from brewing...but will keep progress posted when I start.

Cheers to all


----------



## Salt

Hey guys,

I am about to embark on my journey into AG, using this thread and a recipe I posted in an earlier post on this page.

I am wondering if for a 9L batch if 1pkt of US-05 is too much and that half the packet will do?

What would happen if I over-pitched and put a full pkt (11g?)?

If I can use half a pack, it will mean I can do two batches with a slightly different grain/hop bill

Cheers!


----------



## chunckious

I pitched a half pack for my first two 9L stove tops.......no probs at all.


----------



## Salt

Chunkious said:


> I pitched a half pack for my first two 9L stove tops.......no probs at all.


Excellent, thats the advice I was after...
Cheers mate, will do the same!


----------



## Nick JD

When I'm pitching half packs I roll the packet up tightly from the top and put a rubber band around it and then into a ziplock in the fridge. If you can pour the yeast into a clean, dry cup sitting on some 1g-accurate scales then please do ... nothing worse than pitching 8g into one batch (not so bad) and 3g into the next (bad).

The same thing can be done with full sized batches when you want to blend yeasts - S04 and US05 (half a pack each) gives the best of both strains (attenuation of 05 and flocc + esters of 04).


----------



## Dazza88

I got s189 and wyeast3787 slurry, I wonder what that mix would do?


----------



## Nick JD

DazDog said:


> I got s189 and wyeast3787 slurry, I wonder what that mix would do?



Dunno - I usually mix similar strains where one or both has faults, and both have the same temperature range.


----------



## raven19

If you repitch that mixed yeast slurry be aware one strain will likely take over the other in subsequent ferments, and you may not acheive the same resulting beer flavour/ester profile as your original dry mixed yeast pitch.


----------



## flano

raven19 said:


> If you repitch that mixed yeast slurry be aware one strain will likely take over the other in subsequent ferments, and you may not acheive the same resulting beer flavour/ester profile as your original dry mixed yeast pitch.




how about just re-using the surry from one packet of dry yeast?
Will the flavour stay the same even after numerous brews?


----------



## raven19

Profile will change slightly with the next generation of yeast regardless, however temperature controlled fermentation with a neutral strain (such as US-05) will yield results pretty darn close from generation to generation.

For the cost of the dry yeast I would be just pitching new dry yeast though. Easier and less likely to intorduce contamination into your precious wort/beer.


----------



## Salt

Just a quick question guys...

Will adding only 9Lts to a 30Lt fermenter be an issue? I.e too much empty space/oxygen etc?

I have a 10L water bottle that I am going to use as a fermenter for this, but have two other 30L FVs that I wouldnt mind filling by doing this method in the next few days.

Cheers!


----------



## Tim F

Nah thats fine, it would only be an issue if you left in in there conditioning for a longer period after fermentation finished. The CO2 from fermentation forms a layer over the wort/beer and helps prevent oxidisation.


----------



## Salt

Ok so just completed my first BIAB brew and am pretty happy about how things went...

Mash at 66deg for 1hr and after I removed my blankets had only lost 2deg so was pretty happy ending up at 64deg.
Had a SG of 1.054 which was bang on what Brewmate told me it would be with 70% efficiency, so again, pretty happy with that too. 

Everything went relatively well...I will put that down to being really well prepared, after reading this thread over and over for the past few months. I printed out the PDF guide of this file. Had Brewmate handy. Everything weighed out ready to go. Had everything clean and sterile during Mash and boil/hop additions went well. Took about 45min to cool down in the laundry tub, but managed to pitch at 25deg. 

Obviously my brew day was much longer than previous extract brews, but I was taking my time, making sure it was done correctly. 

Water up to strike temp - 10min
Mash - 60min
Wort up to boil - 25min
Boil - 60min
Cooling - 45min

So maybe 3.5hrs was probably closer to 4hrs. Im sure next time will go quicker again. Might try no chill to break up the day.

Cheers to Nick and everyone else for their input and suggestions across this thread and any q's I have asked....Looking forward to my next BIAB already!


----------



## Salt

argon said:


> I actually think that's a cracking recipe :super: ... might look bitter just by the numbers. But when you look at the crystal additions (at 11%) having the bitterness where it is @ 51IBU against 1056OG will give you a pretty tasty little IPA or hoppy APA.
> 
> In my opinion don't change a thing... but do keep an eye on your pre-boil gravity and adjust if you go over or under, so you get the IBU you want. Numbers are difficult to predict on your first attempt.
> 
> Edit: also just check your Hop AA% eg the latest Amarillo is 9.3% from Craftbrewers, wheras i have some at home @ 6.8%. Worth a second look on the packet and confirm in your software.



Just about to bottle this, as my first BIAB...tasting pretty darn good out of the FV. Did end up changing Hop schedule slightly as I thought it might be a bit high. Changed it down to about 38IBUs.
9L batch;
5g each Centennial and Amarillo @ 60m
8g Amarillo @ 15m
8g Amarillo @ 5m
Dry Hop 8g each of Cascade and Amarillo after 1 week in primary.
It has a nice bitterness, great flavour and the dry hopping of both hops has given it great aroma. Cant wait to bottle and get it carbed up! Damn waiting!

Cheers for all your input and advice.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Hi all,


This thread is great, and I have now got the confidence and the gear to give AG a crack using this method after 50 or so kits and bits, all extract beers. Whilst these beers have mostly been highly drinkable, I always wonder how much you can improve home made beers -and this seems a winner from all the comments. Plus a smaller batch means I am not stuck drinking a full keg of beer I am not overally keen on.

Here is my proposed recipe - any comments/feedback appreciated:

*First 'Crack' B-Saaz Pils*

Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (P): 3.3
Alcohol (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 3.4 (EBC): 6.6
Bitterness (IBU): 40.6 (Average)

95.24% Pilsner
4.76% Carapils (Dextrine)

1.1 g/L B Saaz (8.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
1.1 g/L B Saaz (8.6% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
1.1 g/L B Saaz (8.6% Alpha) @ 2 Minutes (Boil)

0.1 g/L Whirlfloc Tablet @ 10 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 67C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 12C with Saflager S-23

Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*

My questions are before I launch into this:

- I plan to use a food processor to crack the grains - anyone done this with success before?

- As I am using a lager yeast (S-23), would I still use the whole packet for this 9L batch as I will pitch and ferment at about 12C.



Thanks, I can't wait to give this a go!


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

It's okay to use the full packet, though not necessary.

If you want a pilsner, might I suggest replacing your Carapils for Melanoidin - just to make it a bit more authentic.

Make sure you do at least a 60 minute boil and preferably a 90 minute boil - pilsner malt has a high number of DMS pre-cursors and you don't want butter-beer.

Goomba


----------



## Nick JD

paulmclaren11 said:


> My questions are before I launch into this:
> 
> - I plan to use a food processor to crack the grains - anyone done this with success before?
> 
> - As I am using a lager yeast (S-23), would I still use the whole packet for this 9L batch as I will pitch and ferment at about 12C.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, I can't wait to give this a go!



Not many people have had luck with food processors. Coffee grinders work because they are designed to crunch hard-as things ... processors are better suited to soft things. 

If you're buying grain in small batches - they'll mill it for you for free. Only worth getting a mill if you are buying 25kg sacks.

A whole pack of S23 in 9L is perfect. If it was an ale yeast, use half.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Thanks for the replies.

I will be doing at least a 60 min boil.

I don't have a coffee grinder - might have to see what other appliances will work - blender??

Also, I assume instead of placing the pot in the garage overnight I could just dump the wort straight into my fermenter and into the brew fridge to cool? Then when at 12C pitch the yeast?

Great stuff again Nick JD!


----------



## paulmclaren11

One more question... I have read some people have been getting less than 9L when pouring into the fermenter. Do I understand correctly that once I have drained the grain bag and bring the wort to the boil for hop additions I can add more water then to get a bigger volume? How much is suggested to add in?

Cheers.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

You should end up with greater than 9L.

Seriously, download brewmate (www.brewmate.net) for free. On the "brew day" calcs, it'll give you your starting volumes, how much water for mashing and how much you'll end up with pre and post boil.

If your boil is more vigorous, you'll end up with 9L. Take a gravity reading, use the water diluation calculator (in the tools menu) to calculate how much OG you'll have by diluting it back to 9L.

Goomba


----------



## Nick JD

Blenders don't work well either - they're for blending liquids. Get your grain milled when you buy it.

Learn about hot and cold breaks. If you want to transfer the hot wort to your fermenter to cool then you'll need to seperate it from the hot break (that the whirlfloc tablet caused to precipitate out) by whirlpooling. If you cool in the pot (which is completely sterile) then the hot break will settle and you can decant the wort off it. Hot break looks like cottage cheese. Cold break looks like yoghurt. The cold break will be on top of the hot break. Cold break into fermenter is okay; hotbreak not.

You need to be able to measure the SG at various stages of making AG beer. Measure your pre-boil SG. Measure your post-boil SG. Write all this down - information is power. You can then use it in conjunction with your newly-learnt techniques to _make them better._

Roughly, and SG of 1.050 will make a 5% beer. 1.035 a 3.5% beer. 

To dilute 8L of a 1.062 wort to make a 4.2% beer you need to find the final volume:

62/42 = 1.47 So you need 1.47 times 8L to make a 4.2% beer. 

1.47 x 8 = 11.76, or another 4L of tap water.

Now make beer.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Thanks again - will report back how it all goes this weekend.


----------



## mrTbeer

Thanks for taking the time to write all this up and the 20L thread also. It's people like you guys that make ahb a cool community to be a part of.Nice surf pic by the way is it you? Looks bigger than a goldy wave.
I use a 15L fermenter and 9,10,12 L kegs so the 9L recipe would work well for me as im not targetting 20L like most. (i bottle the remainder in grolsch bottles) Also I have just bought a 19L bigw ss pot. (So cheap @$19!) i note In your original thread you've done it all with a 15L pot. 
1. Can I simply scale it up to achieve 12 or 15 L after boil in a 19L pot?(I've had too many extract boil overs as I was using a 8L pasta pot before and my ceran stove is a bit peaky) What is the safe limit for a boil for a 19L pot?
2. If buying a biab bag for the 19L pot what size do you recommend. I'm thinking the craft brewer one might be too big? Should I just start with a square of voile from spotlight?
3. Is there a practical/cheap way to put a tap on the big w pot or is it more trouble than it's worth? The tack welded handles make me nervous if there is 15kg of boiling wort inside. I might yet make an investment in an urn but am on a budget after buying another surfboard.
4. How do I add pic to show with my name?
Thanks in advance if you get around to answering my q's.Tim


----------



## PhantomEasey

Just finished pumping out my first AG BIAB, a simple MO / Nelson Sauvin SMaSH in the second-hand 20ltr urn I procured recently. 

Massive thanks Nick for the inspiration / explanation that demonstrated to myself and many others that the gateway to AG brewing is not as daunting, expensive or troublesome as it may appear in the beginning. Also, thanks to ThirstyBoy and his mate (forgot his name, sorry!) for holding the demo at G&G last month, picked up the last few tricks I was after to enable the leap. 

This site has been a wealth of information for me over the past cpl months since I got into homebrew; can't wait till I'm experienced enough to contribute more. 

Time to start the countdown clock for when this bad boy is ready to drink!

:beer:


----------



## Nick JD

mrTbeer said:


> *1. Can I simply scale it up to achieve 12 or 15 L after boil in a 19L pot?(I've had too many extract boil overs as I was using a 8L pasta pot before and my ceran stove is a bit peaky) What is the safe limit for a boil for a 19L pot?*
> 
> My safe limit for boilovers with my stove and the BigW 19L pot is 14L. I can turn my element to eleven and simply walk off - I think only once did I have a splash leave the pot - and I boil very vigorously. That said, some people report struggling with the boil and others about boilovers ... so it's the stove's wattage that counts.
> 
> Most of my batches have 3.5kg of grain. With my efficiencies, this gives me roughly 14L (pre-boil) of 1.050-1.060. By the end of the boil this is about 10-12L but then I dilute in the fermenter with cold tap water to an SG that most suits the recipe - say 1.044 for a Boh Pils (~17L) or not dilute it at all for a 1.075 IPA. Basically, my grain size it set, my volume isn't. Most brewers set their volume and tweak their recipe. High gravity brewing with limited resources is the other way round or your beer is compromised.
> *
> 2. If buying a biab bag for the 19L pot what size do you recommend. I'm thinking the craft brewer one might be too big? Should I just start with a square of voile from spotlight?*
> 
> The bag needs to be able to have the pot inside it. Read that again - I meant to type it that way. Big bags are no problem and will mean you can then use it for upgrading to a bigger system. If you buy the voile, it's 1.2m wide - so get 1.5m of it and use the offcuts to make big hop bags for the boil and little hop bags for keg hopping.
> 
> *3. Is there a practical/cheap way to put a tap on the big w pot or is it more trouble than it's worth? The tack welded handles make me nervous if there is 15kg of boiling wort inside. I might yet make an investment in an urn but am on a budget after buying another surfboard.*
> 
> I highly recommend using this technique to learn brewing. It's not a method to make beer as much as it's a method to learn how to make beer and to see if it's for you, the whole AG thing. Personally, I'd keep the Stovetop method simple and spend your money on a big urn or kettle.
> 
> *4. How do I add pic to show with my name?*
> 
> Go CTRL-F and search this page for "My Controls".


----------



## paulmclaren11

Okay.... I have just finished my first crack at this method.

I will post a few comments on how it went and my methods, hopefully I can improve next time...

Used the good old breville powermax blender - worked a treat to crush the grain... well it was more like flour by the end of it. Only took about 10 mins.

Strike temp was about 71c, Mash in at 67c and came out at 64c - was pretty happy with that.

Pre boil SG was spot on as per Brewmate (great program!)

Then I placed the pot into my brew fermenter fridge over night to cool. Was 22c this morning - perfect.

However, I only ended up with about 5lts into the fermenter - I was a bit dissapointed. I did leave a fair bit of crud in the bottom of the pot - perhaps a bit too much?

Next time I think I will just cool in the sink with some ice - is there evaporation issues with leaving it overnight?

Anyways used the water dilution program in Brewmate and topped it up to 8lts - beer will be more of a mid strength lager now - thats okay I mainly brew mids.

The biggest difference between the normal extracts and AG was the time. It took about 4 hours. Hopefully for my 8ltrs of beer it will be worth it!

It was a good day and I hope it turns out okay!

Cheers.


----------



## Nick JD

Nice one Paul. One thing to note though is you didn't make 8L of AG beer ... you made yourself realise that you can make AG beer. The beer is just a bonus. And it'll be great beer. If it's for you, do another couple of small batches and then splash out of some full sized gear.

Next time try this:

13L of strike water in the 19L pot. 66C mash. 

3.5kg of Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner grain
100g of Weyermann Melanoidin

23g Czech Saaz for 60 minutes
37g Czech Saaz for 20 minutes 

S189 @ 12C 

When you pull the grain bag squeeze it like buggary and then rinse it with 2L of hot tap water, squeeze again and return this to the pot, then top up the pot to 14L with boiling water from the coffee kettle. 

Measure your SG once it's at 14L - you should have around 1.055.

Dilute it to 1.042 in the fermenter - probably be about 16L. Best. Lager. Evah. 

You can pour the fluffy cold break into the fermenter, just leave behind the cottage cheese looking stuff right at the bottom. You'll lose about 750ml, half of that is hot break, half is good wort. It's a good idea to put some swiss voile in a sieve and sit it in a bowl and pour your hotbreak into the voile. In about 30 minutes it's passed through and you should have about 300ml of clear wort. Bottle it in plastic and stick it in the freezer - it's great for making yeast starters, or for chucking in the next same/similar recipe's boil.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Thanks Nick JD I can't wait to see how my first attempt tastes. I feel it all went well and your instructions are really to use for anyone not sure about trying this out. Seriously, the only thing I had to buy was the grain and the swiss voile (cheap as). It was a great look into how AG is done.

Your recipe looks very tasty and with summer pretty much here (its 35c in Perth today) would go a treat. I only have a 15 ltr pot... I would need to scale back or buy another pot.

As an aside, it there such thing as a extract to AG recipe converter (and vice versa). I will still mainly do all extract with a 1 month old on the go time is of the essence these days!


----------



## Silo Ted

Nick JD said:


> Blenders don't work well either - they're for blending liquids. Get your grain milled when you buy it.


My hardcore blender turns grin to dust in seconds. Not practical in the slightest

Mills are so cheap, anyone serious about making beer at home needs access to a mill


----------



## Nick JD

Silo Ted said:


> My hardcore blender turns grin to dust in seconds. Not practical in the slightest
> 
> Mills are so cheap, anyone serious about making beer at home needs access to a mill



I'm serious about making beer and I don't use a mill.

Folks, you can get by without a mill - unless you are not using a bag. Nothing wrong with grinding your grain to dust using this method. 

Mills are NOT cheap. They are hundreds - and that's without the motor to run it. A coffee grinder is cheap - probably even free if you already have one. There have been awards won by people who didn't own mills.

There's a lot of other gear you should buy before a mill if you're starting out - and remember, Ted ... this is for people starting out. This isn't Move to AG for $250 because you bought a mill.

I've put probably over 200kg of grain through my little coffee grinder (the one used in this thread). It nails a kg in 3 minutes and that's taking my time.


----------



## Truman42

BUMP...Why isnt this a sticky?


----------



## MarkBastard

Silo Ted said:


> Mills are so cheap, anyone serious about making beer at home needs access to a mill



That is definitely not true and I'm not sure why you'd say that in a thread for beginners.

I've made plenty of all grain brews over the last two or so years and have never once owned a mill or been inclined to.

If your local home brew store offers to crush and vacuum seal your grain for you, then it's a matter of weighing up the negatives and positives. Having a mill at home may give you flexibility to create a recipe on a whim, and may result in reduced grain cost per kg as you can buy in bulk, however you'll then also need to worry about grain storage and possible spoilage over time etc.

This is without looking at mill alternatives such as what Nick has talked about in this thread.


----------



## paulmclaren11

Hello ,

I wanted to test my understanding of doing a partial using the BIAB method in this thread.

Do I understand correctly that:

I can mash 2kg of grain in 10L
Do a 60 min boil/hop additions in the 10 L and then at the end of the boil add say 1.5kg of LDM to make it up to 22L?


----------



## MarkBastard

paulmclaren11 said:


> Hello ,
> 
> I wanted to test my understanding of doing a partial using the BIAB method in this thread.
> 
> Do I understand correctly that:
> 
> I can mash 2kg of grain in 10L
> Do a 60 min boil/hop additions in the 10 L and then at the end of the boil add say 1.5kg of LDM to make it up to 22L?



That's correct. And you only really add the liquid malt extract at the end so that it melts in to the brew easily. You could add it to the fermenter if you wanted to like a kit.


----------



## Nick JD

paulmclaren11 said:


> ...add say 1.5kg of LDM to make it up to 22L?



As long as you remember to calculate your spec malt and hop amounts at the 22L volume it'll be great beer.


----------



## paulmclaren11

so basically i can get a 22lt Ag recipe and sub about 2kg of the base malt with the ldm and leave the hops and spec malts the same?


----------



## Nick JD

paulmclaren11 said:


> so basically i can get a 22lt Ag recipe and sub about 2kg of the base malt with the ldm and leave the hops and spec malts the same?



Exactly.

I reckon the substitution is about 60% ... so if you take out 2kg of base malt, you need 1.2kg of LDME or 1.5kg of liquid. But that's a rough guess. I think there is spreadsheets/software that would have an accurate figure.


----------



## paulmclaren11

thanks cant wait to give this a try. Anyone know any good partial american amber and pale ale recipes?


----------



## MarkBastard

paulmclaren11 said:


> thanks cant wait to give this a try. Anyone know any good partial american amber and pale ale recipes?



I know a good amber recipe!

Mash:
2kg ale base malt
300g Caramunich
30g Chocolate

Hops:
40g Willamette at 45 minutes
20g Willamette at 10 minutes

1.5L pale liquid malt extract at flameout

US05 yeast


----------



## paulmclaren11

thanks looks tasty


----------



## argon

I had some recent success with a pretty good Amber Ale that ended up going to Nationals in the Spec class.
Something like this

OG 1060 OG
100% BB Ale
10% Special B
mash at 65C

Chinook @ 60 24 IBU
Cascade and Amarillo @ 30 20 IBU

Cascade @ 10 2g\L 
Amarillo @ 10 2g\L
Dry hop 2g\L Amarillo 

US 05 @18C

Full size recipe here


----------



## Chookers

Would Muslin work for a BIAB of this size?? or do you think its too weak to support the weight. 

http://www.esbrewing.com.au/cheese-making/...in-1-metre.html


I would rather use natural fabric then synthetic.


----------



## Nick JD

Chookers said:


> I would rather use natural fabric then synthetic.



I'd say less crap will come out of polyester than cotton. If you picked and spun the cotton yourself then you'd know it wasn't full of herbicide, pesticide, bleach, contaminants etc. Otherwise you're better off using something synthetic because although it's made from chemicals, it's inert. PE is also a very simple chemical - more simple than the chemicals that make up cotton. 

Natural is not always safe. The assumption that it is can be false. There are a million natural chemicals that will kill you in 30 minutes.

But give it a go and report back if it works. Try to find organically grown, non-treated cotton though - from a western country where they don't lie about its origin.


----------



## Chookers

all I know about this Butter muslin is that it is made to be used for making cheese at home, I thought it would be safe in that case.. prehaps I was wrong.. 


Its not easy to get swiss voile, and I saw that muslin on one of the sponsored sites. the only other thing the have is a BIAB bag for 100Ltr and only have the equipment and ability to make a small batch like your 9Ltr recipe.



Cheers


----------



## Dazza88

Cb sell grain bags for seven bucks, not the you beaut one for 25. The seven dollar take a few kg of grain easily.


----------



## [email protected]

Chookers said:


> all I know about this Butter muslin is that it is made to be used for making cheese at home, I thought it would be safe in that case.. prehaps I was wrong..
> 
> 
> Its not easy to get swiss voile, and I saw that muslin on one of the sponsored sites. the only other thing the have is a BIAB bag for 100Ltr and only have the equipment and ability to make a small batch like your 9Ltr recipe.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers



Its easy to get swiss voile...spotlight do online, mail and phone ordering. Swiss Voile White - PLU: 1200206 Key No:17 

http://www.spotlight.com.au/shop-at-home/faqs


----------



## Chookers

Beer4U said:


> Its easy to get swiss voile...spotlight do online, mail and phone ordering. Swiss Voile White - PLU: 1200206 Key No:17
> 
> http://www.spotlight.com.au/shop-at-home/faqs




cool thanks Beer4u


----------



## Dazza88

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=2889


----------



## Nick JD

DazDog said:


> http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=2889



Move to All Grain for $36.95.

Actually that's a decent bag - bout the same as the swiss voile would cost ya.


----------



## Chookers

Nick JD said:


> Move to All Grain for $36.95.
> 
> Actually that's a decent bag - bout the same as the swiss voile would cost ya.




what do you mean "move to all grain for $36.95" 
please explain..


----------



## Maheel

Chookers said:


> what do you mean "move to all grain for $36.95"
> please explain..




buy your $20 19l big w pot 

$10 bucks for grain ?


----------



## Chookers

Maheel said:


> buy your $20 19l big w pot
> 
> $10 bucks for grain ?




ohhhh, right.
I got a 15L stock pot already will that serve?..(otherwise I'll get the 19L bigw one if not.)


----------



## the_new_darren

Yeah, this thread has been going around for ages.

Why would you use a "muslim bag" when you could simply drill a hole and put some fittings in the pot?

I say pussy whipped original poster.

cheers

TND


----------



## Bribie G

Shut up about your silly girlie braid. whatever braid is supposed to be, or what possible use.


----------



## the_new_darren

Briber,

That was drill and braid or copper.

Get with the times mate

cheers

tnd


----------



## Bribie G

Kindly post in English


----------



## Chookers

the_new_darren said:


> Yeah, this thread has been going around for ages.
> 
> Why would you use a "muslim bag" when you could simply drill a hole and put some fittings in the pot?
> 
> I say pussy whipped original poster.
> 
> cheers
> 
> TND




Hey I dont know any thing.. (so I dont understand what you mean?)
so far I've only done a few can kits.. I thought this would be a good way to get into A.G

the reason I was looking at the musliN, is because it is cotton not synthetic and I had concerns about chemicals being leeched out, but I been told that these materials are safe by Nick JD..

Im always open to suggestion


----------



## the_new_darren

Yeah, Nick has some good ideas but also some not so good ideas.

If you are handy with a drill (about 13-14mm bit) and some small plumbing fittings then you can very easily make a re-usable small-batch "pot" without the hassle and temporality of sviss viole (aka known as muslim veil)

cheers

TND


----------



## Guest Lurker

Playing "Collect the threads" again Daz? Good luck with that, considering the number or enthusiastic yet uninformed posters on this site these days!


----------



## the_new_darren

Guest Lurker said:


> Playing "Collect the threads" again Daz? Good luck with that, considering the number or enthusiastic yet uninformed posters on this site these days!



Nah, GL.

Still waiting for that Barlewine you promised.

cheers

darren


----------



## PistolPatch

Chookers said:


> Hey I dont know any thing.. (so I dont understand what you mean?)
> so far I've only done a few can kits.. I thought this would be a good way to get into A.G
> 
> the reason I was looking at the musliN, is because it is cotton not synthetic and I had concerns about chemicals being leeched out, but I been told that these materials are safe by Nick JD..
> 
> Im always open to suggestion


Good, sensible questions chookers.

I've read of a few brewers getting good results using natural fibres but you need to be careful. Read this thread  for some pros and cons of natural versus synthetic.

Cheers,
Pat


----------



## the_new_darren

Yeah Patch,

If an Aussiehomebrewer who would prefer to put a drill in his hand than carry hand woven handbags, I would suggest that this BIAB is dead in the water?

Advantages...try to make an all grain beer? Yes....works well. Does the BIAB'er have a mill? No!!!!!

Buy malt crushed from a retailer??? Yes.....expensive....YES.

Make a mill..possibly

Down the path of making years of all-grain beer with BIAB.........>>>>>><<<<<..........

place your bag over your shoulder and sook off patch.

Its all been done before.

If you are so disinclined to not drill 100 holes in a bottom of a bucket you shouldnt be brewing (and im sure your not PP)

Nothing new here.

rather than waste your 30-300 dollars following short term (and inadequate) processes brewers should be encouraged to build more permanent and effective brewing proceedures.

I hate those with non-sustainable ideas.

cheers

the_new_darren


----------



## np1962

the_new_darren said:


> Its all been done before.
> 
> 
> Nothing new here.
> 
> cheers
> 
> the_new_darren



The only thing you've posted that is close to being true darren.
Nothing new about you.


----------



## the_new_darren

NigeP62 said:


> The only thing you've posted that is close to being true darren.
> Nothing new about you.



Spoken like a true retailer.

Nothing new here!!!!!!!!


----------



## pk.sax

I really don't know what sewing has to do with brewing though...


----------



## the_new_darren

practicalfool said:


> I really don't know what sewing has to do with brewing though...




You have to sow the grain, water (rain) fertilise,............................................harvest...................
...............................malt

then you grab your handbag (sew) and make a beer

Personally, I love to put my drill in my hand, then grab my welding rod. But hey, thats just me.

cheers

tnd


----------



## argon

Such a chode


----------



## the_new_darren

yeah mate.

Just a chode. 

great contribution to the thread. Im just a choad.

Does that make you nothing but an internet choad?


----------



## Nick JD

Darren; been there; got the T-Shirt.

Don't you get lonely, dazza?


----------



## the_new_darren

Nick JD said:


> Darren; been there; got the T-Shirt.
> 
> Don't you get lonely, dazza?




Is that an offer Nick? :lol: 

HB is for me something I am passionate about (including tha fact that retailers of ingredients are just secondary and unnecessary)

I do have another life.....How about you? I notice you are here this late at night!!!

cheers

tn dags


----------



## Nick JD

the_new_darren said:


> Is that an offer Nick? :lol:
> 
> HB is for me something I am passionate about (including tha fact that retailers of ingredients are just secondary and unnecessary)
> 
> I do have another life.....How about you? I notice you are here this late at night!!!
> 
> cheers
> 
> tn dags



Just about to go to bed. Nigh-nighs dazza.


----------



## PistolPatch

I started all-graining by batch-sparging. I've made manifolds and tried out more ideas than most blokes, probably due to some grave psychological disorder - ATD perhaps? (Attention to detail.)

I have a great mill, which I built a long time after I started BIABing. The pics of it will be on here somewhere but...

I'd never advise a new all-grainer (BIAB brewer or trad brewer) to buy a mill. Here's one post I found on why buying and then constructing a mill is a major decision. In other words, it requires a bit of thought.

This thread gives new brewers a way of making all-grain. I think the thread was originally pure BIAB (single vessel, full-volume brewing) and was aimed at allowing new brewers to at least try all-grain. All of them liked it. Some then, through necessity, added a second vessel (and often heat source) to their equipment. This means they were no longer 'pure-BIABing'. They actually were batch-sparging.

My personal preference would be to see the new brewers buy a decent size kettle and stay single vessel rather than go three-vessel. Most do. And, there are actually a lot of brewers who have been brewing three vessel and changed to single vessel. Good on them! It's not an easy decision to choose to abandon equipment you have spent years developing for a ridiculously simple method.

Whatever method people choose to employ, it would be nice to see them encouraged and given quality information. Finding quality info is by far, the hardest job, for a new all-grainer. Hope some of the above info helps. Gotta go but good on you to the guys asking great questions and those giving sensible answers :icon_cheers:. By the look of the last ten or twenty posts here, I think finding good answers here must now be almost impossible.


----------



## jakub76

the_new_darren said:


> who would prefer to put a drill in his hand than carry hand woven handbags
> the_new_darren



I'm not sure if it's your misogynistic comments, your homosexual drill bit fantasies or your blatant disregard for the OP's inclusive MO but you've completely missed the point. You've been so vocal about it that I feel I have to say something and can't help that I hope you choke on something sharp. 

This thread encouraged me to make my first AG beer. Armed with experience I moved onto a different workflow and within a year my house lager won the NSW Pale Lager category. If it wasn't for this thread I'd still be kits and bits but now I've found a new appreciation for the science and art in producing beer and have been encouraged to research a LOT more information.

While I don't always agree with Nick I can say that this thread has encouraged me to discover more. It's an excellent starting point and proves that anyone can do it for **** all money. 

Finally, in case you haven't already choked on glass, Darren you come across as a proud and egotistical tosser...but I understand that everyone's different and just because your penis is so much smaller than the rest of us doesn't make you a bad brewer. Thanks for your input Dazza and get well fucked 

Cheers,
Jakub


----------



## flano

the_new_darren said:


> Yeah, Nick has some good ideas but also some not so good ideas.
> 
> If you are handy with a drill (about 13-14mm bit) and some small plumbing fittings then you can very easily make a re-usable small-batch "pot" without the hassle and temporality of sviss viole (aka known as muslim veil)
> 
> cheers
> 
> TND




Show us some pics will you please.
I am a novice and wouldn't mind knowing what you are talking about.


----------



## Dazza88

If your new and your interested in trying the thirty dollar method ignore the rants of the new darren. I believe there is good reason he had to make himself the new darren; where is darren? Plenty of people use biab to great effect. TND can't handle people doing things differently to him and he just tries to hijack threads. Follow his posts, many are antagonistic attempts at raising blood pressure.


----------



## Nick JD

I admire Darren's ability to keep coming back to a place where no one likes him. Gotta have balls to do that.

I also have a feeling that he feels quite unloved and unappreciated in other aspects of his life; his gig is disrupting decent blokes sharing differeing levels of knowledge amiably.

And that makes me feel sad about him. No one wants to be "that guy" - even Darren, I suspect. 

Sometimes dickheads just need a hug. :wub:


----------



## Dazza88

Lol. Ya, fair enough. I know the regular posters know his gig but I can see newbies getting railroaded by the bs posts he puts in this thread. I don't think that is fair.


----------



## Nick JD

DazDog said:


> Lol. Ya, fair enough. I know the regular posters know his gig but I can see newbies getting railroaded by the bs posts he puts in this thread. I don't think that is fair.



This thread seems to be a bit like a Zombie wearing kevlar and driving a tank. Not sure anything can kill it. 

When I see it bumped again I take a deep breath and prepare for the PMs.


----------



## Chookers

I got a weird/stupid question.. this is hypothetical and probably not related to BIAB, but...


just say I did everything all the steps, minus the Bag, and let the whole lot cool right down, then poured it through an old (sterilised) pillow slip and squeezed it out.. would this work?? or pour it through some other type of strainer.. (just thinking is all)

the bags just there to make moving the grain easier, right?

please dont killme for thinking....


----------



## Nick JD

Chookers said:


> I got a weird/stupid question.. this is hypothetical and probably not related to BIAB, but...
> 
> 
> just say I did everything all the steps, minus the Bag, and let the whole lot cool right down, then poured it through an old (sterilised) pillow slip and squeezed it out.. would this work?? or pour it through some other type of strainer.. (just thinking is all)
> 
> the bags just there to make moving the grain easier, right?
> 
> please dont killme for thinking....



You could do that - but then you'd have to clean the pot before transfering the wort back into it for the boil. It would be messy and an extra step. 

If you are squeezing but not rinsing the grain (sparging) - then you can simply lift the grain bag out, put a rack on the pot rim, put a container with some holes in it (collander etc), plonk the grain bag in, and walk off for a while while it drains.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

DazDog said:


> Lol. Ya, fair enough. I know the regular posters know his gig but I can see newbies getting railroaded by the bs posts he puts in this thread. I don't think that is fair.



That's what's irritating me about this choad.

Deliberate derailing of probably the most informative thread on this forum - and not good derailing (like boobies or funny pics), for no other reason than one-eyed arrogance. 

You can guarantee this is the type of person that doesnt' like to share knowledge in the sense of actually sharing it, only to give enough out to confuse people and justify his pathetic existence. Of all his attempts at being informative, none have actually contained information written in such a manner that someone will read it and go "aha, I get that". It's just crap.

This thread got me onto AG brewing, as it has many.

The irony being, is whilst this idiot wants to sing about doing things "his" way - most people that start off BIAB, often do pick up a drill, whack some copper manifold in an esky and head down the 2V or 3V road.

BIAB - for some - is the gate that opens to that road, and no-one should be aloud to spread FUD and derail this. For some, it's a simple, cost effective manner to make beer - after all, it costs less for a couple metres of swiss voile, than for a new drill, and cracked grain from a retailer (mine anyway) isn't any more expensive - it's only bulk buy grain that's cheaper. I think paying $3.50 for my base malt - cracked - without having to store 25kg of it is a fair price and t_n_d can go tie a reef knot around his own neck if he don't like it.

I'm very possessive of this thread - out of gratitude for what it got me started doing and on behalf of those newbies yet to come - to whom I want to get this information and do well.

Goomba


----------



## bum

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Deliberate derailing of probably the most informative thread on this forum


If you mean active threads then you may have a point, otherwise, this is absolute tosh.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

bum said:


> If you mean active threads then you may have a point, otherwise, this is absolute tosh.



I'll pay that one.

The first 10 pages or so were very informative - based on that I made that comment.

Based on the next million posts, probably not.

I've pointed newbs on this forum to it and they "got it". I've pointed mates to it and they "got it".

Sure, it doesn't deal with the intricacies of brewing (hell, I still had to research the effect of hop additions, i didn't follow the recipe in question, had to find out how to whirlpool to limit hot break in the fermenter) - granted, but in terms of "get yourself this stuff, do it, and then the theory will make more sense" - it's a great thread.

I'm not strictly BIAB now - but I wouldn't still be brewing if not for this thread - craft beer would have ruined my palate for home brew (whereas, now it's the other way around  )

Goomba


----------



## Nick JD

If I'm galactically drunk while brewing, sometimes I use this thread to remember how to do it. 

EDIT: I mashed in a couple of brews ago without the bag. About a year ago I was doing a 15 minute APA ... stuck the HUGE whack of hops in at the _start _of the boil.

If I had more vessels I'd have twice as many ways to burn myself.


----------



## MarkBastard

I know what you meant Raja. This thread is probably the most important on the website. The most helpful and the one that will get the most people brewing in a better way.

I think it upsets a 'scene' of brewers that are more focused towards $10,000 home breweries and brewing competitions and other elitist crap.

The good thing about darren is he is totally transparent, unlike some other people that will drop little hints about the good old days of wine and roses when there were better posters here that have now gone because they don't like having 'n00bz' around.

But the funny thing is that's bullshit. Bring back butters and the air lock threads of doom I say!

Sorry for shitting up a good thread Nick but I had to get that out.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Nick JD said:


> If I'm galactically drunk while brewing, sometimes I use this thread to remember how to do it.



You just derailed your own thread - never brew while drunk.


----------



## Pennywise

After all this fun has been had I hope the mods delete the crap, so newbies actually read the whole thing. After the fun though, not before....


----------



## Nick JD

Mark^Bastard said:


> Sorry for shitting up a good thread Nick but I had to get that out.



It's not my thread, I just started it. Shit it up all ya want!


----------



## Nick JD

Pennywise said:


> After all this fun has been had I hope the mods delete the crap, so newbies actually read the whole thing. After the fun though, not before....



I like the organic nature of threads. Worts and all. 

Thread and let thread.


----------



## bum

Pennywise said:


> so newbies actually read the whole thing.


It has been about 32 pages since that last happened.


----------



## Clutch

Informative for two reasons:

1: The original intent of the thread.

2: Dickhead spotting.


----------



## Pennywise

I'll admit I haven't actually read the whole thread, carry on...


----------



## Dazza88

"BIAB - for some - is the gate that opens to that road, and no-one should be aloud to spread FUD and derail this. " - Goomba

You know i was considering starting a poll (well i ain't sure how to): BIAB was my gateway to . . . 

I also thought it would have been interesting to poll all members (say by adding the functionality in their personal info - can't see it currently) to see their primary method of brewing.


----------



## the_new_darren

I made my first beer with a pot and a collander. Crushed my grain in a food processor.

As I had the saucepan and the collander, I made the transition for FREE.

tnd


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

who cares?

Let's have a poll about that.


----------



## the_new_darren

Anyone who calls himself "Lord" anything must be a tosser


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

possibly -but at least i've not made the general public aware of it.


----------



## the_new_darren

Are you sure of that?


----------



## Nick JD

the_new_darren said:


> Are you sure of that?



I'm about to offer you a hug, Dazza. 

Seriously though - what can we do to make you less hostile?


----------



## Silo Ted

Pennywise said:


> I'll admit I haven't actually read the whole thread, carry on...



While I get the gist of it,I haven't actually ever read the first post !


----------



## the_new_darren

Nick JD said:


> I'm about to offer you a hug, Dazza.
> 
> Seriously though - what can we do to make you less hostile?



Thanks Nick.

Im only hostile to those who attack me. Notably the majority of it comes from QLD

tnd


----------



## Nick JD

the_new_darren said:


> Thanks Nick.
> 
> Im only hostile to those who attack me. Notably the majority of it comes from QLD
> 
> tnd



Be like the Ninja, Daz ... the Ninja only chooses a worthy opponent.

EDIT: wait! I just checked my address - I is from QLD! 

Where's my Samurai and my funny crab-toe shoes...


----------



## gadjitsteve

G'day folks, my name is Steve and have been brewing kits and some with add ons for around five years now.

I've been looking around this place for a while and read this thread a few times. (the first few pages)

Ive got an old keg and some viole for a bag and will begin with some small BIAB brews on the stove top to get the hang of it before looking to make myself a keggle.

Cant say enough about this forum its great. 

Cheers and happy brewing, Steve


----------



## Pennywise

Silo Ted said:


> While I get the gist of it,I haven't actually ever read the first post !



I think the only post I _have_ read on the first 30 pages was the first post :icon_cheers:


----------



## WarmBeer

Nick JD said:


> Seriously though - what can we do to make you less hostile?


Bring back Butters?


----------



## King Nothing

What a mission - I've just finished reading all 36-odd pages of this. Once my eyes stop bleeding I can't wait to get cracking on this. I've done a handful of Kits n bits, this thread has inspired me to try AG. Thanks Nick for the awesome guide, and to all the contributors. 

I like the idea of 9-10L brews, it lets me learn quicker and I like variety. Once I get my temp-controlled fridge sorted, I'll move out of the cupboard under the stairs (which worked well in winter) and get me some AG happening.

:beer:


----------



## Nick JD

gadjitsteve said:


> Cheers and happy brewing, Steve



Get into it Steve! You'll have fun - and the beer is supurb.


----------



## Nick JD

King Nothing said:


> What a mission - I've just finished reading all 36-odd pages of this. Once my eyes stop bleeding I can't wait to get cracking on this. I've done a handful of Kits n bits, this thread has inspired me to try AG. Thanks Nick for the awesome guide, and to all the contributors.
> 
> I like the idea of 9-10L brews, it lets me learn quicker and I like variety. Once I get my temp-controlled fridge sorted, I'll move out of the cupboard under the stairs (which worked well in winter) and get me some AG happening.
> 
> :beer:



Temp control is very important in summer. Do a couple of AGs and then start looking into liquid yeasts.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

@steve - welcome. It'll be the best thing you ever tried.

@King Nothing - temp control is the biggest key - especially if you are starting in summer. Otherwise it'll be nasty.

Goomba


----------



## grod5

the_new_darren said:


> Thanks Nick.
> 
> Im only hostile to those who attack me. Notably the majority of it comes from QLD
> 
> tnd




Even though my post is a little :icon_offtopic: I felt the need to share anyway.

I love you daz (in a man type of way (no-homo)) but as I'm from NSW this probably doesnt help much.

Daniel


----------



## aroo75

Hey Nick

Nice guide. I've been reading and re-reading your steps on my flight path to doin this 
stovetop AG. I have been steeping gains and doin the hop boil with my last few coopers kits
so I'm ready now.

I wanted to ask about using coopers (cpa) bottle yeast, I've done up a starter with
250ml wort and is foaming up nicely. Would you or others happen to know/recommend what
size I can step this upto next... would 400-500ml be ok to ferment this 9ltr batch size ??


Thank you

Andrew


----------



## loikar

andyL said:


> Hey Nick
> 
> Nice guide. I've been reading and re-reading your steps on my flight path to doin this
> stovetop AG. I have been steeping gains and doin the hop boil with my last few coopers kits
> so I'm ready now.
> 
> I wanted to ask about using coopers (cpa) bottle yeast, I've done up a starter with
> 250ml wort and is foaming up nicely. Would you or others happen to know/recommend what
> size I can step this upto next... would 400-500ml be ok to ferment this 9ltr batch size ??
> 
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Andrew



9L batch, I would step it to 500ml then a liter, then pitch


----------



## Dazza88

500 ml should be fine - check out mr malty dot com.


----------



## dmac91

Was wondering about what would work well to crush the grains, should I buy a coffee grinder like this one:
http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/62298

Note: I've only brewed one batch of beer and not looking at spending $100s on a mill lol.


----------



## chunckious

dmac91 said:


> Was wondering about what would work well to crush the grains, should I buy a coffee grinder like this one:
> http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/62298
> 
> Note: I've only brewed one batch of beer and not looking at spending $100s on a mill lol.



I to started out with this thread and went down the path of a coffee grinder. It didn't last the life of crushing my 1st brew. Ended up crushing with a rolling pin (Fark there's some good memories). I know it's worked for some but I don't think that the odds are in your favour from my experience. Just buy your grain from one of the site sponsors (I use Craftbrewer). They'll crush your grain to match your recipe and vac seal so went you dough in, open her up and your on your way. 2c

Greg


----------



## Nick JD

+1

Milling your own grain is only needed if you are buying 25kg sacks. If you are buying by the kg ... get it crushed for free. 

That said - if you have a blender that crushes ice, it'll murder grain. But be prepared to wait longer (squeeze harder) for the bag to drain, and deal with doughball city.


----------



## misfit

does anyone have a xxxx gold clone reciepe for these small batches????????????
Thanks in advance


----------



## Nick JD

misfit said:


> does anyone have a xxxx gold clone reciepe for these small batches????????????
> Thanks in advance



In the best interests of your brewing progressing, how about you come up with one?  

Cluster hops and BB Pale. 

We can steer you in the right direction - but recipe formulation promotes a greater understanding of your brewing. 

Give it a go.


----------



## misfit

Nick JD said:


> In the best interests of your brewing progressing, how about you come up with one?
> 
> Cluster hops and BB Pale.
> 
> We can steer you in the right direction - but recipe formulation promotes a greater understanding of your brewing.
> 
> Give it a go.




I understand what you are saying and I do plan on getting a greater understanding of all things brewing.
But as this will be my first attempt at biab/ag I was after a tried reciepe of a style of beer I drink,get that one under my belt and work from there.
Cheers Brett


----------



## Nick JD

misfit said:


> I understand what you are saying and I do plan on getting a greater understanding of all things brewing.
> But as this will be my first attempt at biab/ag I was after a tried reciepe of a style of beer I drink,get that one under my belt and work from there.
> Cheers Brett



No worries. 

Try this in a 19L pot:

*20L XXXX Gold*

3.4kg BB Pale
50g BB Caramalt

(mash in 12L at 66C for 60min) - calculate your strike temp.

When you've squeezed the bag and sparged a bit (if you want to) top up to 14L for your boil with hot water. Ideally you should have 14L of 1.050 at the start of the boil. Remember that SGs are taken at 20C, or you must use software to calculate.

20g Aus Cluster (6.7%AA) for 60min

Top up with cold tap water in your fermenter to 20L

2 packs of Fermentis 34/70 @ 12C (or 1 pack of US05 at 18C if you must)


----------



## misfit

Thanks mate
That is what I was after as my first attempt will be more about getting the feal of thing and finding out what I have forgotten to plan for,once I have the process right then I can build on that.
Thanks again I appreciate you steering me in the right direction
cheers Brett


----------



## chunckious

Go for it Brett.......this shit is gonna blow your mind. :kooi:


----------



## misfit

thanks chunkious,I think I have covered all bases and all will be good.
And yes I think this shit will blow my mind,When I have all my shit together & ready to go I will start a thread and let you all know.
Thanks for the support.
Cheers brett


----------



## mikec

Hey Nick (or anyone really)

I'm getting ready to do my first BIAB.
A question re the SG.
In the guide at the beginning of this thread, you take a gravity reading prior to boiling, and calculate it to be 1.048.
Won't I lose some water when boiling, thus increasing the SG?


----------



## Nick JD

mikec said:


> Won't I lose some water when boiling, thus increasing the SG?



You will. However, don't worry too much about SGs. The point of this is to just make wort and not get flustered about hitting SG targets and stuff like that - because that's the kinda stuff that makes people put AG in the Too Hard Basket.

When you put it in your fermenter and say it's boiled down to 1.055, you can ferment a slightly more bitter, smaller volume, 5.5% beer - or you can top it up with some cold water for a 4.5% beer. 

Measure the SG in the fermenter and dilute as desired. 

This thread is more a "Proof of Concept" for those wondering if they can do it. Download Brewmate after you've done this and it'll all become magically clear to you - which is the point of this slaphappy tutorial: putting the (confusing) theory into practice, so then the theory all makes perfect sense. You'll have a 30L pot and be winning brewing comps soon with world-class brews ... it's only difficult at the start. The rest is easy.


----------



## Rob S

Just my 2c for this thread.

I quickly made the move from K&K after 2 attempts of pissweak tasteless lager straight to BIAB after much research on the web.

Already had the Coopers kit from Big W and a temp controller for the fridge.

$20 for a 25l stainless steel stock pot off ebay

$6 for 2 metres of swiss voile, folded over to make a perfectly fitting 4-ply bag

$34 for my bag of grains, hops and wyeast from MHB (plus about a hours worth of free advice that increased my knowledge 10x - and thanks for letting me rummage through your hops fridge smelling all the different types of hops. It took my nose about a week to recover)

Made exactly 24 tallies of quality pilsner which I'm currently enjoying. I fucked up heaps with this, it didn't go to plan. End of the day it's bloody lovely. 

Since then I've put down Lloyd's Krispy Kolsch and about to put down a Newcastle Brown Ale clone. 

*Positives....*
BIAB is easy to make. BIAB is cheap for people stepping up from K&K to trial before buying a $3500 BM setup. BIAB is very forgiving, you can miss a strike temp, **** up your additions, leave the hot break on top of the boil, add the cold break to the fermenter etc etc and still end up with drinkable beer.

*Negatives....*
Stainless Steel stock pots can be expensive unless you're patient and shop around. Trying to boil 20+ litres of wort on the stove can be a PITA unless you have a gas stove with a big burner. Ummm..... Bueller, Bueller. 

Like I said. Just my 2c. I'd love to move to BM one day but for now I'm totally satisfied with BIAB and my 20L batches of beer.


----------



## mikec

Cool, makes sense, thanks Nick.

I'm one of those "jump in the deep end" people, and so this has been researched to the nth degree!
And my fianc is a chemist.
So this should be a walk in the park.

The only downside of all this is that I am looking at the 3 or 4 cans of extract we have left in the cupboard with some level of disdain...


Edit: Nice one Rob S. That is comforting. You made the move much sooner than I did, well done. I've done about a dozen K&K so far (with various additions).


----------



## Nick JD

mikec said:


> Cool, makes sense, thanks mate.
> 
> I'm one of those "jump in the deep end" people, and so this has been researched to the nth degree!
> And my fianc is a chemist.
> So this should be a walk in the park.
> 
> The only downside of all this is that I am looking at the 3 or 4 cans of extract we have left in the cupboard with some level of disdain...



The deep end is much safer to jump into. I never understood that saying!  

Sounds like you have it covered - making good beer is all about yeast. The strain you choose and it's care.


----------



## mikec

Nick JD said:


> The deep end is much safer to jump into. I never understood that saying!
> 
> Sounds like you have it covered - making good beer is all about yeast. The strain you choose and it's care.



It follows on to "sink or swim". In the deep end, you'll do one or the other.

First batch will be a CPA - so reculturing the Coopers yeast from the bottle. So much good info on this site, even that looks easy!


----------



## mikec

OK, gave my first AG brew a go yesterday. Coopers Pale Ale clone, 11.5L batch.

I was just using a blender to crush the grain. I had a polyester BIAB bag from ESB, but I was worried that too fine a grind might just fall through the bag. How does this bag compare with a swiss voile? Are the holes too big or are they just right?








I happened to be doing this as AHB was offline yesterday morning... so I decided just to wing it.
I tried not to run the grain through the blender for too long, so that I didn't end up with dust. All the while hoping that it was ground just enough to get the sugars happening!





The top centre bit is more dust than the rest, this was the small amount of wheat and crystal malt, which I ground a little finer than the pils.

Anyhoo after the mash was complete, I found two things:
1. Very little dust had escaped the bag, and
2. The SG was a little lower than I'd hoped. (accounting for temperature)

So, correct me if I'm wrong here, but next time I should grind a bit finer, and this would give me better efficiency?

To bring up the SG I just added a bit of cane sugar, as the original CPA recipe called for this anyway. 

Pitched late last night, now the wait begins!


----------



## pyrosx

mikec said:


> How does this bag compare with a swiss voile? Are the holes too big or are they just right?



That bag has much, much bigger holes in it that than my bag (the craftbrewer one, which I think is swiss voile) - which is so fine that it's hard to tell that there actually -are- holes in it, apart from the fact that it's semi-transparent....


----------



## Nick JD

mikec said:


> 1. Very little dust had escaped the bag, and



The dust turns to maltose!

How far off your target SG were you? I see you have quite a few whole grains in your bowl there. If you have 5% whole grains in your crush, then you'll be 5% down. Pretty sure whole grains are close to 100% unconvertable. Just blend the living crap out of it - clear wort is nto necessary for great beer.

I can get a crystal clear wort with a blender crush anyway ... just don't squeeze the bag (takes ages, but the wort is crystal), the finely blended husks are a great filter.


----------



## mikec

Nick JD said:


> The dust turns to maltose!
> 
> How far off your target SG were you? I see you have quite a few whole grains in your bowl there. If you have 5% whole grains in your crush, then you'll be 5% down. Pretty sure whole grains are close to 100% unconvertable. Just blend the living crap out of it - clear wort is nto necessary for great beer.
> 
> I can get a crystal clear wort with a blender crush anyway ... just don't squeeze the bag (takes ages, but the wort is crystal), the finely blended husks are a great filter.



SG was about 1.035. Topped up with 300g of raw sugar to get to about 1.044, and I figured I'd lose some water when boiling. I finished up at 1.047.

So that bag is OK then? Go for a fine grind, maltose is good anyway, don't squeeze the bag, win?


----------



## Nick JD

mikec said:


> SG was about 1.035. Topped up with 300g of raw sugar to get to about 1.044, and I figured I'd lose some water when boiling. I finished up at 1.047.
> 
> So that bag is OK then? Go for a fine grind, maltose is good anyway, don't squeeze the bag, win?



Grind it to dust and squeeze! Still makes great beer; it's a myth that clear wort = great beer.


----------



## mikec

Nick JD said:


> Grind it to dust and squeeze! Still makes great beer; it's a myth that clear wort = great beer.



Roger.

Might give it another go this weekend.


----------



## Nick JD

Coopers grind to dust, so you're in good company with this "terrible" technique!


----------



## mikec

2nd attempt on the weekend. 
Way, way, WAY better!

Much finer grind, and used Nick's sparging method from the 20l stovetop thread.
Started with 2.1kg of grain, used 14L of water which ended up about 10.5L, to get 1.055. Watered down to 1.048 when transferring to fermenter.

Had a play with Brewmate, couple of questions re water quantities and efficiencies and so on, will post a separate thread later tonight when I'm home and can take some screenshots.


----------



## donburke

nick, the photos in the start of this thread aint showing anymore, 

this is a valuable resource and so to are the photos, any idea what happened ?


----------



## kario

Working ok for me....are you using your mum's dial up connection again donburke?


----------



## donburke

kario said:


> Working ok for me....are you using your mum's dial up connection again donburke?




my mum aint got any internet where she is, but that might explain the little red crosses that were showing up

appears to be working fine now, sorry about the false alarm


----------



## Ross

Haven't heard from our guru of the stovetop for a while... hope he's ok :unsure:


----------



## Bribie G

Which guru? Nick posted yesterday. 
RdeV is going great guns but is bunkering down for the Candoo storm h34r: and is concentrating on circlin' the wagons and keepin' that powder dry.


----------



## The Village Idiot

gadjitsteve said:


> G'day folks, my name is Steve and have been brewing kits and some with add ons for around five years now.
> 
> I've been looking around this place for a while and read this thread a few times. (the first few pages)
> 
> Ive got an old keg and some viole for a bag and will begin with some small BIAB brews on the stove top to get the hang of it before looking to make myself a keggle.
> 
> Cant say enough about this forum its great.
> 
> Cheers and happy brewing, Steve



I am with you 100% mate..... drinking the first BIAB 19L Stove top jobbie and it rocks!!! Maybe I used too much grain cos it has a kick.

4.250kg Weyermann Ale Malt
250g BB Wheat Malt
25g POR, 5g Centennial, 5 Cascade all boiled for 60 min

CB Swiss Lager @ 12C

Stuffed up the water volumes a bit and ended up with about 18L in the keg. Couldn't get Swiss Voile so used a fine Muslin cloth.


Shits over kits and is very like a Heinekin with a very slight fruity twist.

Just do it.... pretty hard to stuff it up.....obviously.... lol

What to brew next???

Cheers, Peter


----------



## Fish13

hi village idiot if you can't find the swiss voile stuff. look at your enjo bags or even womens laundry bags. like these

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Enjo-Laundry-Wa...=item256f192599

http://www.brasnthings.com/store/accessori...ar-washbag.html

dont worry the print you can get different styles. 100% polyester


----------



## flano

just worked out I have now done 34 brews using this stovetop technique.

Only had one shit batch where I tipped it out, that was purely my fault ..I over hopped it by heaps.
I couldn't be bothered drinking it.


Did DR Smurto's untold JSGA yesterday morning and had it on its way fermenting by 8.30pm last night.

cheers
again Nick thanks for the info.


----------



## thylacine

Flano said:


> just worked out I have now done 34 brews using this stovetop technique.
> 
> Only had one shit batch where I tipped it out, that was purely my fault ..I over hopped it by heaps.
> I couldn't be bothered drinking it.
> 
> 
> Did DR Smurto's untold JSGA yesterday morning and had it on its way fermenting by 8.30pm last night.
> 
> cheers
> again Nick thanks for the info.



Beer blending may interest you: eg. "Long Trail Brewing" company section of BYO article
http://www.byo.com/component/resource/arti...s-from-the-pros

"...We also sometimes blend beers to temper some of the extreme characteristics in a beer, like bitterness or alcohol levels..."


----------



## flano

thylacine said:


> Beer blending may interest you: eg. "Long Trail Brewing" company section of BYO article
> http://www.byo.com/component/resource/arti...s-from-the-pros
> 
> "...We also sometimes blend beers to temper some of the extreme characteristics in a beer, like bitterness or alcohol levels..."



cheers for that.


----------



## MarkT

Just wanted to say Thank You to you Nick JD.

As I am a newbie to Extract and AG I really enjoyed the post and comments


----------



## soundawake

Bumping this thread because it deserves to be bumped.

I've been planning to do a BIAB for quite a while, I just need to buy a gas burner first from BeerBelly as my POS electric stovetop struggles to boil even 5 litres. Planning a 9L Coopers Pale Ale-esque recipe, are there any floating around?


----------



## fnaah

NickJD and others,

Many thanks for this fantastic thread, and the '20L Stovetop All Grain Aussie Lager' thread.

It's taken me about six months of perpetual reading and re-reading and confusion and doubt, but I finally gave in and had a crack yesterday with a 9L SMaSH (JWH Pilsener and SuperPride.)

Some things that went 'wrong' for me: got halfway through the mash, went looking for the hop sock that I thought i'd bought, turns out I hadn't. :/ Decided that i'd quickly rinse out the voile bag once the wort (or wait, is it liquor at that stage?? meh.) went back on the stove after the mash, worked a treat.

Was very surprised to find that, after the boil, I had 6.5L of 1070, and panicked, but then found your helpful "how much water shoudl I add to hit a particular gravity" formula [back on about page 28 of this thread...] 

Doing a taste at different points of the boil was very educational (and delicious!!) - the progression from super-sweet to quite bitter was very interesting.

I've written down all the figures I think I'll need, how can I calculate my efficiency?

Thanks again for your awesome contribution.  :beer:


----------



## fnaah

just checked my photos, apparently i used Simpsons Golden Promise, and not JWH pilsener. I always get confused at the LHBS 0_o

[edit]: hokay, so acording to their website, simpsons golden promise has an LDK of 308. I hit 1.070 after boil (volume of 6.5L), which gives a 'total gravity' of 455, and the 'potential gravity' is 616, giving a post-boil efficiency of 73%. Is that right?

I had 11L pre-boil at 1.058, which would mean... uh oh. Over-unity pre-boil efficiency. What have I done wrong?


----------



## Nick JD

soundawake said:


> Bumping this thread because it deserves to be bumped.
> 
> I've been planning to do a BIAB for quite a while, I just need to buy a gas burner first from BeerBelly as my POS electric stovetop struggles to boil even 5 litres. Planning a 9L Coopers Pale Ale-esque recipe, are there any floating around?



Try this.




*CPA*
Australian Pale Ale

*Recipe Specs*
----------------
Batch Size (L): 9.0
Total Grain (kg): 2.000
Total Hops (g): 12.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.049 (P): 12.1
Final Gravity (FG): 1.012 (P): 3.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.81 %
Colour (SRM): 6.0 (EBC): 11.8
Bitterness (IBU): 31.5 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

*Grain Bill*
----------------
1.900 kg Pale Ale Malt (95%)
0.100 kg Caramalt (5%)

*Hop Bill*
----------------
12.0 g Pride of Ringwood Pellet (8.3% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.3 g/L)

*Misc Bill*
----------------

Single step Infusion at 63C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 18C with WLP009 - Australian Ale


Recipe Generated with *BrewMate*


----------



## Nick JD

Fnaah said:


> I've written down all the figures I think I'll need, how can I calculate my efficiency?



There's a few online efficiency calculators, or BeerSmith will sort it all out for you. 

To be honest, I wouldn't worry about this sort of thing unless it's something you want to know.


----------



## lukasfab

i dont think I have really tried to calculate efficiency since I started brewing a year ago


----------



## Pickaxe

This thread is legendary. I'm going to go for it. I like the small batch size, and low risk.

NickJD - bloody legend.

Big W pot - check.
Esky - Check.
Bag - picking one up tomorrow with some grain.
Bloody helpful tutorial - check.

I'm sold.


----------



## chunckious

You wait Pickaxe, you got no idea. Prepare to be amazed at what that gear can do. :beerbang:


----------



## citizensnips

If you were brewing kits, you aint anymore


----------



## Pickaxe

It's the most exciting step. It's like I've been eating tinned spaghetti for my whole life and someone has just showed me what can be done with a pack of pasta, garlic, onion, oregano and tomatoes.


----------



## chunckious

Nah mate, you aint getting out of it that easy, your making your own pasta.
If you want good beer you gotta work for it.


----------



## Pickaxe

hahaha. it really doesnt seem like much more work than full extract anyway.


----------



## lukiferj

But well worth the effort!


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Can't wait to see you t the other end ofthis step


----------



## fletcher

sorry nick to ask a question for a beer you probably made yonks ago, but i noticed in the earlier pages you primed a bottle with skittles...how did that one turn out?


----------



## citizensnips

im gonna take a stab in the dark and say pretty average


----------



## chunckious

Like using a Belgium Yeast


----------



## stm

Pickaxe said:


> This thread is legendary. I'm going to go for it. I like the small batch size, and low risk.
> 
> NickJD - bloody legend.
> 
> Big W pot - check.
> Esky - Check.
> Bag - picking one up tomorrow with some grain.
> Bloody helpful tutorial - check.
> 
> I'm sold.


What's the esky for?


----------



## Pickaxe

I'm gonna mash in it eventually, maybe let me up my batch sizes a bit. Once I have two pots, another fermenter I'll be able to mash a lot more grain in the esky, and do 2 small-med batches. Start experimenting a lot more with hops additions.


----------



## NewtownClown

Chunkious said:


> Like using a Belgium Yeast


Belgium is the country. Belgian is the adjective.
Nothing wrong with Belgian yeast.
Guess you don't like Belgian beer...


----------



## chunckious

I feel like I'm Will Hunting.......nah not a big Belgian fan Clowny.


----------



## eresh666

Guys,

I went out and got my pot today from Big W (so long K&K) however was only able to pick up the below FV. Its marked for drinking water so I assume its ok to use I couldnt find any marked safe for food etc.


----------



## dammag

I did my first BIAB yesterday using basically the technique Nick outlined at the start of this topic.

I did a half batch in a 19L BigW pot. I used one of those butane camp stoves and it boiled 14L of wort no problem, I had to turn it down.

As a lot of people say it is easier than extract and grains and I am looking forward to my next brew day. No more extract for me!


----------



## Phillo

I reckon the majority of new AG brewers started with this thread. I certainly did.


----------



## S R F

So what happens next? Do you add yeast and brew it in the pot?


----------



## dammag

S R F said:


> So what happens next? Do you add yeast and brew it in the pot?


I put aluminium foil over the top, cooled it in the bath and then poured it into my fermenter when cool and added the rehydrated yeast.


----------



## Yob

eresh666 said:


> Guys,
> 
> I went out and got my pot today from Big W (so long K&K) however was only able to pick up the below FV. Its marked for drinking water so I assume its ok to use I couldnt find any marked safe for food etc.


You need to get one with the hole at the top, this one looks like it has a hole on the side which will make things difficult.


----------



## wbosher

Well, duh Yob, just turn your monitor around.


----------



## S R F

The thing I like most about this site is the sense of humour. So we drink about 30 bottles of beer a week here. Can I do one pot and add it to another or would I be better to do 2 pots at once and join them in the fermenter? I have to save my pennies to get to the good gear


----------



## Nick JD

You can do whatever you want, as long as you have the ability to bring the volume you want to drink ... to the boil. That's your limiting factor in stovetop brewing.

But I strongly suggest getting gear that reflects your consumprion levels, or you'll soon become frustrated.


----------



## NewtownClown

S R F said:


> So what happens next? Do you add yeast and brew it in the pot?


Didn't get as far as page 4, eh?
Yeast pitched here


----------



## NewtownClown

Nick JD said:


> But I strongly suggest getting gear that reflects your consumption levels, or you'll soon become frustrated.


 ... and sober.


----------



## Bribie G

Interesting that those butane camping stoves can boil that much liquid. I use them all the time for my curry and Asian cooking - as opposed to my lame ceramic electric cooktop - but never thought of using them for a bigger boil.

I BIAB in an urn but, without reading through 40 pages, how about going out and getting:

2 Big W stockpots $36
2 butane stoves $28
2 squares of voile $10

And you can full batches in parallel for initial outlay of $74 plus a dollar per butane canister. Doing simple recipes like Nick's and buying in bulk, the system would pay for itself very quickly compared to K n K.

Beats paying hundreds of dollars upfront for urn or nasa burner and big pot or a Braumeister (thousands).


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

S R F said:


> The thing I like most about this site is the sense of humour. So we drink about 30 bottles of beer a week here. Can I do one pot and add it to another or would I be better to do 2 pots at once and join them in the fermenter? I have to save my pennies to get to the good gear


Do a search for the 2 pot stovetop method with ghetto lauter. That will give you an idea of how it can be done without a bag (but buckets instead). My 2nd big w pot cost me $12 on special, so less again.

And it worked on the stovetop (ceramic thing, when I was in Brisneyland).


----------



## motorhead

Great guide Nick, you've encouraged me to try BIAB.


- I've got a gas stove and am thinking of buying a pot. If I want to do a full batch, would my gas stove top be enough to heat that much water in a reasonable time? Probably looking at a 50L pot. Big enough?

Sorry if that's been answered before...


----------



## Bribie G

If you can straddle two burners it could get you there, for a full volume BIAB you will need around 33L initially, then after hoisting the bag and draining you'll be left with about 27-28 L to boil down to 23L .


----------



## mikec

It can be done on a single burner, just depends how good the stove is.
When I was doing this, I also bought a cheap (<$20) over-the-side element on ebay. Drop it in for the ramp up, once you get a boil going you can take it out.


----------



## wbosher

motorhead said:


> Great guide Nick, you've encouraged me to try BIAB.
> 
> 
> - I've got a gas stove and am thinking of buying a pot. If I want to do a full batch, would my gas stove top be enough to heat that much water in a reasonable time? Probably looking at a 50L pot. Big enough?
> 
> Sorry if that's been answered before...


I think you will really struggle to bring a pot that size to the boil on a stove top. I use a 50L pot on a 3 ring gas burner, the outdoor type, and it takes about half an hour to get to mash temp and then about another 20 minutes to get to the boil.


----------



## Bribie G

You can get fairly inexpensive gas burners that attach to a bottle (not the portable butane ones) at Asian supermarkets.


----------



## motorhead

Thanks guys. I've got a gas bottle, so I could try a little stove system.

Just looking at the specs of the pot, it's apparently 40cm wide. I think I could get it on 2 gas jets of my stove top.

As little new equipment as possible (For now )


----------



## Nick JD

This guide's purpose is to let a person new to AG brewing decide if it's something they would like to do without costing a lot.

I strongly suggest doing a few small batches to get your eye in and become familiar with the process - and if it's something you can see yourself continuing (seriously, I've not heard of anyone going back to kit brewing, so you need to be aware that you are opening pandora's kettle here) then go out and spend a couple hundred on a system that'll keep you beerishly satiated.


----------



## Byran

This is a great beginners guide Nick.

Just a shame that some people tried to shut you down because they were tired of hearing about other peoples opinions about brewing.............


----------



## Rowy

Nick JD said:


> This guide's purpose is to let a person new to AG brewing decide if it's something they would like to do without costing a lot.
> 
> I strongly suggest doing a few small batches to get your eye in and become familiar with the process - and if it's something you can see yourself continuing (seriously, I've not heard of anyone going back to kit brewing, so you need to be aware that you are opening pandora's kettle here) then go out and spend a couple hundred on a system that'll keep you beerishly satiated.


I couldn't agree more with Nick here. Doing a couple this way lets you know if your up for it or not. The lessons learnt doing stove pot carry over to other methods so nothing is lost. The theory is all the same just the gear / bling differs down the track. The first part of this thread should be a wiki article on the site.


----------



## Drew CR

motorhead said:


> Thanks guys. I've got a gas bottle, so I could try a little stove system.
> 
> Just looking at the specs of the pot, it's apparently 40cm wide. I think I could get it on 2 gas jets of my stove top.
> 
> As little new equipment as possible (For now )


I've just gone up to a 50L pot (40 cms wide) and it gets over two burners on my stove top no worries. Takes roughly 25-30 mins to get to mash temp and about the same again to get to a boil - maybe a touch less.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I'm currently using a 36L heavy bottomed pot, borrowed from jlm.

It fits sort of over a front & back burner.

This stove is significantly worse than my previous stove despite appearing to be newer.

It is still adequate for making beer, and saves me buying a gas bottle for a few weeks (which I will when I get a BBQ, finances permitting). I have a borrowed 3 ring burner.

But, I don't need the burner or gas, though it does make a brew day look lots easier.

Again, concur with Nick's comment, this allows the brewer to start AG with minimal equipment and gives some practical side to basic theory and the ability to practice.

However, 9L batches on a permanent basis is enough to book a one way ticket to the nuthouse, and stove top will not get you around learning to brew - you still NEED to build your knowledge, and regardless of equipment, poor brewer's knowledge and poor yeast handling will make good beer less likely to ever happen.


----------



## MattyFin

Just sat down a pale ale on my cement balcony to cool. All I had to buy was the grain and swiss voile had everything else at hand (the missus saw her stock pot disappear). All in all I can say this is a awesome guide to just start with the basics, and is very well explained. Now lets hope that ale turns out to be tasty , I would have to say that I'll be doing it this way for awhile.


----------



## jimmyfozzers

Another satisfied customer here. Did my fifth BIAB using a 19L Big W pot last night and managed to get over 11 litres into the no-chill cube. This was with 18 litres pre-boil and about 2.5 litres lost to trub. This volume suits my consumption and allows me to brew every fortnight - but horses for courses and all that.

Can't thank Nick enough for this thread. If I hadn't stumbled upon it a few months back there's no way I would have ever contemplated going AG this soon. I'm sure there will be a lot more guys making the move to AG on the back of this. So happy with the way my first few brews have turned out.

Unfortunately I've now caught the bug and have started building Matho's Braumiser, but that's for another thread!


----------



## r055c0

I'm revisiting this thread as a mate is keen to get into all grain and I wanted to show him how I got started. I used this thread to do my first batch of all grain beer about a year ago and it has turned my brewing world upside down. I managed to get out 4 batches of beer on my stove top before piecing together enough equipment to move to 25L batches, and have now brewed a couple over 20 batches of delicious all grain beers, and have gotten into things I would never have tried with K&K (Saison, kolsch, witbier, irish red ale etc).

So thanks Nick, you've improved me as a brewer and now you'll be improving my mate :beer:


----------



## fletcher

legit, i think Nick needs to get royalties from the many people he's converted!


----------



## r055c0

Maybe if Nick feels like putting his address up here everyone who got started with his guide could send him a stubby of their next brew? This is the interwebz so he might also end up getting stalked...


----------



## Aussmeister

Hey Nick just wanted to say thanks for this thread, I am a BIAB convert now after making my 1st brew.


----------



## Nick JD

No thanks are needed, but you are required to pay it forward.

Teach someone else what you now know.


----------



## jc64

Well I've been spending the past hour checking out various PID's and such thinking I might move to a herms system, reading this thread reminds you it's about how far you want to take it. Might just go for a heat resistant jug to do my step mashes


----------



## Aussmeister

I had an issue with heat loss during the mashing. I wrapped towels around my tun, temp still dropped from 66 to around 55 which is more than I expected. Has anyone come up with a better solution? I thought about the oven on Low temp, might stick thermometer in and check temp readings.

One other question, After cooling my wort down to 22C and whirlpooling, I siphoned off the brown goodness into my fermenter, I was left with about 2 litres of liquid/gunk in the bottom so I restrained that back through some Voile cloth and got all the liquid loveliness and tipped it into fermenter. Am I better off to leave that stuff out or is it ok to strain it? I was only doing a 10L batch so I wanted all the sugaz I could get.

Cheers


----------



## markjd

Aussmeister said:


> I had an issue with heat loss during the mashing. I wrapped towels around my tun, temp still dropped from 66 to around 55 which is more than I expected. Has anyone come up with a better solution? I thought about the oven on Low temp, might stick thermometer in and check temp readings.
> 
> One other question, After cooling my wort down to 22C and whirlpooling, I siphoned off the brown goodness into my fermenter, I was left with about 2 litres of liquid/gunk in the bottom so I restrained that back through some Voile cloth and got all the liquid loveliness and tipped it into fermenter. Am I better off to leave that stuff out or is it ok to strain it? I was only doing a 10L batch so I wanted all the sugaz I could get.
> 
> Cheers


You could try re-heating the mash tun around half way through the mash. Make sure to check the temp before and after the heating


----------



## Liam_snorkel




----------



## Florian




----------



## Rowy

It's like reading an old friends last letter........sad really........I'll have a beer for him tonight


----------



## Liam_snorkel




----------



## Rowy

Maybe we should put the virtual hat around for the little JD's. He was but here for a short time but his courtesy and ability to take criticism will stay with me forever. His high regard for Bum was something to behold.


----------



## wbosher

I'm still waiting to hear from Yob


----------



## jimmyfozzers

What did I miss???


----------



## tricache

Did Nick get banned again?


----------



## Liam_snorkel

refer to the cultural exchange thread before it gets deleted


----------



## Yob

wbosher said:


> I'm still waiting to hear from Yob


eh?



jimmyfozzers said:


> What did I miss???


+1



tricache said:


> Did Nick get banned again?


eh? +2

:blink:


----------



## Rowy

wbosher said:


> I'm still waiting to hear from Yob


NOT YOB TOO! Oh the inhumanity of it all. This is what happens when big beer comes to town. Whose next?

Yob beat me to it appears he is safe and well thank god!


----------



## wbosher

There was a mention about bum and Nick, I've seen a few ripper "discussions" between Yob and Nick too. :lol:


----------



## Bridges

It is a worry for newcomers like me when valuable brewing knowledge like Nick and Tony contributed are no longer here , who will answer my questions about bubbling airlocks and wiring an STC-1000?


----------



## wbosher

wiki...oh wait...


----------



## penrithbeerclub

Nick, could you please email us at [email protected]

Thanks mate


----------



## fletcher

i don't know what was said, but AHB will be worse off without nick. he's helped me out so much. outspoken perhaps; but we all are at times. i'm saddened that a slap on the wrist and a temporary ban wasn't used and a permanent ban was put in place. kinda pathetic really. 2c.


----------



## thedragon

Nick, RIP. may you rise again. This is a better place with you. Without you I'd still be smashing out k&k.


----------



## Professional beer tester

What a shame, Nick's pics are gone – Wanted to forward this to a mate to get him into BIAB, sadly it's missing a lot.

Can someone contact Nick / AHB to get the pics reposted?

This thread is a valuable resource for every aspiring brewer.


----------



## Yob

He must have removed them from the host account, I don't believe that he hosted pics through AHB, any picture removal would have been by his hand not mods


----------



## Liam_snorkel

Why would he want to do add to the forum which banned him?


----------



## Yob

Why would he remove them? The fact that he helps people get into AG remains.


----------



## donburke

i dont blame nick for removing them, they are his property and he can do whatever he likes with them, in fact we were lucky that he shared them with us, and i thank nick as it is this very thread that got me into ag

i'd also be selling my woolies shares as a result of this, their sales are on a downward spiral as no one will be buying 19 l pots


----------



## chunckious

I hadn't done any sort of brewing ever. This thread made me want to jump straight in. I thank Nick for that! :beer:


----------



## Yob

Professional beer tester said:


> What a shame, Nick's pics are gone – Wanted to forward this to a mate to get him into BIAB, sadly it's missing a lot.
> 
> Can someone contact Nick / AHB to get the pics reposted?
> 
> This thread is a valuable resource for every aspiring brewer.


http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/60922-2-pot-stovetop-ag-with-lauter/


----------



## Rowy

For sale 2 x 19l pots. Authentic woollies pots. These pots have been specially treated at the factory to enhance flavour in AG brewing. No other pots have this special feature. Bargain basement price of $200.00 per pot inclusive of GST. These won't last long so start the PM's boys!


----------



## Florian

I'll grab both Rowy if it's not too late?


----------



## pist

Despite everything that may or may not of happened separate to this (I'm not privvy to any of it so cannot comment) I believe this is a great loss to the forum. If it wasn't for reading threads such as this one...I'd doubt i would of gotten the courage to even give AG a go and probably would of thrown in the brewing towel all together (K & K and extract to me is just not drinkable or worth the effort), and for that I have to thank Nick JD for showing everyone how easy and simple the process can be.

It's a real shame the pics have been taken down, but at the end of the day, he is free to do as he pleases with them as they are his.


----------



## Pickaxe

Yes, this thread helped push me over the line going AG.

That being said, there are plenty of videos on youtube, blog sites and other resources on the web that will run people through BIAB. Google is a great resource that will take you to these places. There's vids of Bribie BIABing online somewhere. BABBS System wars. This wasnt the only thread that I read before my first BIAB.

Not trying to diminish NickJDs contribution, but there are other ways to go.

Someone could always take photos next time they brew? Or as Yob pointed out, check out Goomba's photos and videos on 2pot with lauter thread.


----------



## fletcher

Pickaxe said:


> Yes, this thread helped push me over the line going AG.
> 
> That being said, there are plenty of videos on youtube, blog sites and other resources on the web that will run people through BIAB. Google is a great resource that will take you to these places. There's vids of Bribie BIABing online somewhere. BABBS System wars. This wasnt the only thread that I read before my first BIAB.
> 
> Not trying to diminish NickJDs contribution, but there are other ways to go.
> 
> Someone could always take photos next time they brew? Or as Yob pointed out, check out Goomba's photos and videos on 2pot with lauter thread.


definitely. this isn't a be all and end all of BIAB. anyone who is genuinely interested can find whatever they're looking for online.


----------



## pist

yeah definitely agree, sorry i should of been a bit clearer in my post.

I didnt mean for it to come across as though this is the only article or nickJD was the only person to help me...this is far from the truth. I have learnt alot in such a short time from others as well...bribie, bum, and many others...sorry if i have forgotten you all...but i value all of the help that I have gotten from everyone.

I guess i was just trying to make the point that this article definitely was one that opened my eyes and changed my thinking from shit that sounds hard to you know what i can do that, and therefore played a part in getting me started in BIAB brewing


----------



## Professional beer tester

Agree there are a lot of other resources out there, but this one was so easy to follow.

Hope someone else can do a similar post, and while I have no idea what happened with nick / ahb, the brew community has suffered.

BIAB is a gateway to proper beer, at least beer that tastes like beer.


----------



## Rowy

Florian said:


> I'll grab both Rowy if it's not too late?


Sorry Florian both went within 5 minutes. Either I let them go too cheap or Goomba s trying to corner the Woolies pot market in Tassie!


----------



## slcmorro

You can follow the guide without the photos quite easily...


----------



## time01

hi guys, tried to PM nick but have just found out he has been banned, would someone please be able to assist with the below?

Hi Nick,

Just been reading your move to all grain for thirty bucks thread and wondering exactly what equipment i need? will the following be enough;

BIAB bag
19ltr pot
thermometer
sleeping bag to wrap around pot


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Hydrometer (if you don't already own one).
Fermenter (if you don't already own one).

So yep, you pretty well have it all.

I do a method with two pots on the stove and a lauter tun (something to whack the grains into and drain out the liquid - instead of the bag, and then to sparge (meaning rinse with hot water) the grains after drawing off the first liquid). I've put a couple of videos on the thread as well. It mightn't be the same, but it will add to the pictures on the $30 thread and help with ideas.


----------



## time01

thanks goomba, have read your thread as well, thought nicks method might be a good entry point before moving onto your method.


----------



## spryzie

Big spoon, some clips to hold bag to side of pot are very helpful, rope to lift bag (or be prepared to use you hands and have a bucket ready to throw it into to drain), pyrex jug to pour wort into cube (or silicon hose to siphon).


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

+1 for the bucket. I used a pasta pot with a colander insert from the kitchen. It meant I could squeeze sparge without burning myself (actually it meant I could do a real sparge too) and you could leave the bag 'relax' and let out more wort whilst you put the pot on the stove.


----------



## time01

is there any need for a bucket with Nicks method? i thought it was all done in the one pot?


----------



## spryzie

How are you going to drain the bag?

I personally do it in a colander over a kitchen bowl.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

I think Nick's method still uses a bucket to whack the bag in when you lift it. The one pot aspect is that the mashing and boiling are in the same pot. The bag allows for removal of the grains, whilst retaining the resultant liquor.

The other items are extra, but if you have the items in the house, use them.

Reason: 2kg of sticky hot wort burns like hell.

I used to sparge in the pasta strainer - just because it was good for efficiency, and made life easier. Not hard to run a kettle or two worth of hot water through the grain and it means that it drains out with minimal burns and far less effort.


----------



## spryzie

My second attempt at BIAB, I decided to hoist the bag with rope.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/gallery/album/1005-spryzies-pics/


----------



## citizensnips

If your using a cheap bucket I strongly suggest squeezing the majority of wort out of the bag first and then just using the bucket as somewhere just to put the bag. If your going to pour the contents back into your kettle I highly recommend tasting it first. I use to just pour it back in until one time I thought, maybe 75degree water and grain on a cheap bucket may cause it to release some unwanted flavours/chemicals......and oh boy it did. tasted like straight up plastic.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

My local Kmart has 20L plastic food grade pails for $7 (even cheaper than Bunnings, go figure).

If you could be bothered shelling out a few extra $, you could grab 2 of these, and a tap (usually from bunnings for about $1.50), and make yourself a lauter. That way you could dump the bag in and let it do its thing. If you want to sparge, great, but it'll allow you to easily move the bag and then take the runnings out.


----------



## time01

great pics spryzie.

thanks for the tips guys, ill grab gear when I get back from Europe and give it a crack.

can I still do 20ltr brews in a 19ltr pot (by topping for cold water)? I will eventually buy a 2nd pot or a 50ltr, I just wanted to get comfortable with this process first.


----------



## spryzie

Certainly possible to do 20L.

But I've found 16L is what I can get out of the 19L pot for a 5%'ish ABV beer. That works out to be 36 stubbies.

That's with 3.75kg of grain in the pot with 15L of water to mash.

Brewmate tells me with 4kg of grain @ 70% efficiency you'd get a 4% ABV beer if diluted to 20L. Doubt you'd fit more than 4kg of grain into the pot. You could then add 350g of sugar to the boil (or some malt extract I guess) to bring it up to 5%. I'd just make less beer personally.

If you wanted to make a Mild then you could get a whole 23L batch out of it easily.

By the way, download Brewmate. It's free. Let's you run numbers for working this stuff out!


----------



## donburke

slcmorro said:


> You can follow the guide without the photos quite easily...


i've never been able to blow with a playboy thats had all the pictures ripped out


----------



## time01

sounds perfect spryzie, least this way I should build up my confidence and ability before progressing and investing in more equipment.

thanks to yourself and goomba for the tips, cant wait to give it a crack when I get back.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

No worries.

I thought I'd add that I got a bitter out at 27L from the top pot method - which ended up being high grav at the end of boil and some water added to bring it back down when I transferred from the no-chill cube to the fermenter.

The most I've got is 38L of a 'mild' (it was really a darkish bitter) at about 1.039. The sparge was staggered. The issue I had was that I was having to leave the tap on immediately after I started lautering (chucking the watery grain mush into the bucket in bucket thing to draw off the liquor), so that the lauter could cope with the increased grain bill (and increased water). 

My solution would be that you would need a lower water to grain ratio for larger grain bills (whether bigger beers or higher quantity of beer), and then sparge the hell out of it.

The good thing is that the 2nd pot in my method means you can get about 18L of sparge water up to sparge temp during the latter half of the mash and my kettle "boils" at the right temp to mop up an extra 3-6 litres as the lautering is going on.


----------



## pajs

Such a good thread, this one. My thanks to NickJD for putting this together. It's got me back into brewing, and into doing all grain. Simple, fast, small batches, including a bunch of SMaSH beers, has been great for getting my enthusiasm for brewing back.


----------



## lespaul

Is there anyway that the pictures can be reloaded on the opening thread?


----------



## Yob

Ask nick


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

*MOD: *I've hidden all posts in the last day, to keep this thread on topic.

Let's go back to discussing the excellent information, not the OP.

I for one would like to see the pictures retaken by someone keen to do the method or has done it, and the thread either rejigged or the good bits transferred to a new thread and this one locked.

It's an excellent thread and personally helped me get into AG, and still influences my current method (2 pots on the stovetop - which does have a topic with pics and a vid).


----------



## booargy

lRG you have the ability to edit the thread why don't you do it instead of referring back to your own thread.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

booargy said:


> lRG you have the ability to edit the thread why don't you do it instead of referring back to your own thread.


Because I don't have the pics and I'd like, ideally, to keep this thread for posterity's sake. 

I don't have access to the original photos, so editing the thread isn't going to help. If someone else does photos and can give me links, by all means, I'll edit it and put those photos within the original posts. I can't put a post as the new 'first', otherwise I'd have done that when I cleaned up the hops threads.

My thread is a different beast, of sorts, and only referred to in the hope that someone sees that and uses it as a basis upon which the old $30 thread used to look.


----------



## doctr-dan

where'd all the pictures go?


----------



## Yob

Nick Rage quit and deleted them when he was banned


----------



## Black Devil Dog

Nick JD got banned and took them down.


----------



## Yob

I thought there was a way of looking at "archived" web pages.. stuffed if I can remember how to do it though


----------



## Feldon

Surely by now he's due for parole, or a least weekend detention.


----------



## Yob

Bum too...


----------



## Rambo

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=37683

I had this bookmarked from when I first started. Have no idea where it's from cause I did a shite load of reading and book-marking before my first AG. I hope that after all these years Nick wouldn't mind the photos popping up again.


----------



## doctr-dan

Yeah I think Ive got time to do one or two this week


----------



## Bribie G

Feldon said:


> Surely by now he's due for parole, or a least weekend detention.


Who knows if he's still brewing or even visiting the forum. A large number of knowledgeable and contributing members have banned themselves 

edit: I'm sure that a "what ever happened to _insert username here_ ?" would be a very long thread indeed.


----------



## Mud Gecko

Rambo said:


> http://aussiehomebrewer.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=37683
> 
> I had this bookmarked from when I first started. Have no idea where it's from cause I did a shite load of reading and book-marking before my first AG. I hope that after all these years Nick wouldn't mind the photos popping up again.


It'd be great if a mod could attach this link to the first page, the photos help so much when you're starting out.

Sorry, I just realized the grave dig, my bad.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I

Done


----------



## homebrewkid

Why is this popping up on my phone for some reason? And im sure nick would mind thats why he deleted the photos in the first place and hasnt been heard from since


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## Rambo

Hasn't been heard from cause he is banned, and I'm assuming that's why the photos aren't showing up. Thanks for the response 2 years later though.


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