# Wort Return



## Kingbrownbrewing (25/3/12)

Can I please get some ideas on wort return for my HERMS?

I currently just use a piece of silicone tubing that sits on top of the mash with a float, but I think I am getting too much channelling with this.

Any photos/ ideas would be greatly appreciated.


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## Howlingdog (25/3/12)

King Brown Brewing said:


> Can I please get some ideas on wort return for my HERMS?
> 
> I currently just use a piece of silicone tubing that sits on top of the mash with a float, but I think I am getting too much channelling with this.
> 
> Any photos/ ideas would be greatly appreciated.



Watch the you video on the Sabco Brew Magic, it will give you some ideas. starting at 8:33 mins into the video.



HD


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## bradsbrew (25/3/12)

Goo d link there HD. Interesting on what he says about stirring.

Dan I have mine temporarily set up so the return valve is on the MLT lid and a short cooper pipe directs the flow to the edge and gives me the same effect as the sabco in Howards link.
I was'nt sure about return speed so have tried all different speed's. I found on my system doing a 60L batch that having the valve full open worked well for recirc and backed it down to 1/4 for transfer. Hit 87% eff yesterday.
I am only new to HERMS myself but learning heaps along the way. Been reading through the dedicated herms thread as well for ideas.

Cheers

OT- you going to PUBS tues?


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## NickB (25/3/12)

Forgot to say yesterday Dan, shouldn't' matter if you're getting channeling too much if you're batch sparging. Fly sparing is obviously different. If you're getting over 75% efficiency I wouldn't worry at all. I'm sure you'll also see your efficiency jump with the HERMS and a longer mash regime.

Cheers


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## Kingbrownbrewing (25/3/12)

Just mashed in and the HERMS is working a treat!!
Getting about 3 degrees per minute with the hermit build.
And yes brad I will be at pubs, I'm bringing the club keg this meeting, so I would probably get shot if I didn't show...


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## NickB (25/3/12)

Let us know how the efficiency ends up Dan!


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## A3k (25/3/12)

NickB said:


> Forgot to say yesterday Dan, shouldn't' matter if you're getting channeling too much if you're batch sparging. Fly sparing is obviously different. If you're getting over 75% efficiency I wouldn't worry at all. I'm sure you'll also see your efficiency jump with the HERMS and a longer mash regime.
> 
> Cheers



Hi Nick,
If there's channelling whilst trying to use the HERMS to raise temp, then it won't be recirculating through the grain properly, and the temperature won't be uniform.
I don't have any recirculating temp control, so don't have any experience here, but i'd assume that removing the channelling would be a positive thing.




King Brown Brewing said:


> Just mashed in and the HERMS is working a treat!!
> Getting about 3 degrees per minute with the hermit build.



What size batches are you doing, actually what size mashes are you doing? i'm looking at getting a RIMS or a HERMS, but have been leaning towards a RIMS as they have better response times, but i haven't heard anyone getting 3degrees per minute with either RIMS or HERSM. I may reconsider if the ramp times are comparible.

Cheers,
Alan


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## Kingbrownbrewing (25/3/12)

This batch is only single, using nevs hermit build except with a keg king element through the middle of the coil. Positive results so far...


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## brettprevans (25/3/12)

If u want to pay yge $ u can buy a beerbelly wort.relturn 'system'


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## Bada Bing Brewery (25/3/12)

KBB
Here is what I did with the HERMS return. I had about a foot and a half of s/s wire and shoved it up the silicone tube. Then I just sort of made a corkscrew so I can place it just on the surface and the returning wort whirlpools around the top with minimal channelling.
Cheers
BBB


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## QldKev (25/3/12)

A3k said:


> Hi Nick,
> If there's channelling whilst trying to use the HERMS to raise temp, then it won't be recirculating through the grain properly, and the temperature won't be uniform.
> I don't have any recirculating temp control, so don't have any experience here, but i'd assume that removing the channelling would be a positive thing.
> 
> ...



If you restrict the flow, the wort at the outlet of the heat exchanger will increase fast. BUT the grain bed and the wort in it will lag behind dramatically and you wont have uniform temperatures. To me, you want the fastest flow without sucking down your grain bed to get the most uniform temperatures resulting in the most repeatable brews.

I wasn't thinking of that when I asked GB about ramp rates here. He said he got 1c per minute using a 1800-2000W element in a 100L batch.
But for a 100L batch (as per linked thread) allowing 70L strike water and 15kg grain (light grain bill) with a 2400w element, mathematically using 100% cycle, I would only be able to achieve from 66 mash to 78 mash-out 30 minutes minimum, allowing zero losses. 12/30 = 0.4c minute. Try the numbers in any water heating calc (inc the one on my website). 

If will apply the same rules to a single batch, 
water at 20L in the mash and 5kg grain, so I use the water value 25
temp diff 12 (66 mash to 78 mash-out)
2400w element, 
and using the same calcs we get 12degrees/9minutes, so 1.3c per minute possible at 100% cycle. 

If you get faster ramp rates, then your mash is lagging behind. As a minimum I would calculate the heating potential of the element on your mash volume, and recirc for at least that amount of time, if not a bit longer.


QldKev


edit: Add pic of sparge arm

Normally this is run under the surface of the wort, this was just at the start of recirc'ing to have a look at it. I added more water after the pic was taken.




QldKev


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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/3/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> KBB
> Here is what I did with the HERMS return. I had about a foot and a half of s/s wire and shoved it up the silicone tube. Then I just sort of made a corkscrew so I can place it just on the surface and the returning wort whirlpools around the top with minimal channelling.
> Cheers
> BBB
> View attachment 53310


You can see in the pic that he has placed the probe right near the outlet of the hose. Right spot :super: 
Nev


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## QldKev (25/3/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> You can see in the pic that he has placed the probe right near the outlet of the hose. Right spot :super:
> Nev




I was always told the hottest spot? So in the case of HERMS wouldn't this be just as it exits the HERMS coil? Otherwise wouldn't you potentially be heating the wort a bit hotter than needed denaturing the enzymes for the required temp range? Maybe there is not enough temp lost in the return line?

QldKev


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## Crusty (25/3/12)

QldKev said:


> I was always told the hottest spot? So in the case of HERMS wouldn't this be just as it exits the HERMS coil? Otherwise wouldn't you potentially be heating the wort a bit hotter than needed denaturing the enzymes for the required temp range? Maybe there is not enough temp lost in the return line?
> 
> QldKev



Kev's on the money.
Immediately after the wort exit for sure. There is definatly a temp difference from my Rims exit point to the return dish entry point in the mash tun. There is heat & friction loss through the hoses, how important that is, is debatable. The mash will lag behind, there is no compensation for that, it's the nature of the beast with recirculation. I am monitoring my wort return from the Rims exit point & have no idea what the actual grain bed temps is. I might measure it next time & see how far it lags behind the surface return temp.
I base my ramp on 1deg a minute & that's pretty spot on with a 2400watt element with my set up.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/3/12)

QldKev said:


> I was always told the hottest spot? So in the case of HERMS wouldn't this be just as it exits the HERMS coil? Otherwise wouldn't you potentially be heating the wort a bit hotter than needed denaturing the enzymes for the required temp range? Maybe there is not enough temp lost in the return line?
> 
> QldKev


I dont see there would be a great deal of temp difference in readings but I think there would be a slightly lower grain bed temp if read from the coil exit. Silicon tube doesn't suck much heat in the short run to the grain bed.
Denaturing is not going to happen unless you can get your readings up past sac temps. If you stop your recirc flow then denaturing can occur but only in the small volume in the HX, much like decoction mash where you pull off 1/3 and boil it, there is still 2/3 of wort full of enzymes.
Nev


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## benno1973 (25/3/12)

Is it feasible to measure the temperature in the centre of the mash tun, and stop the pump recirculating when the desired temp is reached? If you have the water at near to boiling temps in the heat exchanger, then the ramp times should be pretty good and while there might be times where the liquid exiting the HX is higher than the set temp, this is only momentary until it mixes in with the cooler water in the mash tun. 

The downside is that when the pump is turned off, the small volume of liquid within the coils heats up dramatically over sac temps, but as Nev points out, this isn't different to decocting. The benefit is that there's no overshooting/undershooting/lagging issues for the grain bed, which is where the majority of conversion is happening.

Is this feasible, or is there some reason why this isn't done?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/3/12)

Kaiser Soze said:


> Is it feasible to measure the temperature in the centre of the mash tun, and stop the pump recirculating when the desired temp is reached? If you have the water at near to boiling temps in the heat exchanger, then the ramp times should be pretty good and while there might be times where the liquid exiting the HX is higher than the set temp, this is only momentary until it mixes in with the cooler water in the mash tun.
> 
> The downside is that when the pump is turned off, the small volume of liquid within the coils heats up dramatically over sac temps, but as Nev points out, this isn't different to decocting. The benefit is that there's no overshooting/undershooting/lagging issues for the grain bed, which is where the majority of conversion is happening.
> 
> Is this feasible, or is there some reason why this isn't done?


In an ideal situation the PID side of your controller could have two PID sensors in one PID, one at the HX and another in your grain bed.
This type of system uses cascade loops, inner & outer loops to refine the set point.
Some interesting tech reading HERE
Bit of over kill in a HB situation IMHO but use full on a larger scale.
Nev


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## Batz (25/3/12)

King Brown Brewing said:


> Can I please get some ideas on wort return for my HERMS?
> 
> I currently just use a piece of silicone tubing that sits on top of the mash with a float, but I think I am getting too much channelling with this.
> 
> Any photos/ ideas would be greatly appreciated.




When I had my 3v system I used one of these, I drilled a hole up through the middle as well. I found it spread the wort over the entire grain bed.

http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=968


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## Online Brewing Supplies (25/3/12)

Batz said:


> When I had my 3v system I used one of these, I drilled a hole up through the middle as well. I found it spread the wort over the entire grain bed.
> 
> http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=968


We have something similar at the design stage in stainless, problem with the linked one is you are likely to pic up O2 in the process.
Nev


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## Cortez The Killer (26/3/12)

Check the video out at the bottom this page

Cheers

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day...-by-step?page=6


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## Online Brewing Supplies (26/3/12)

Cortez The Killer said:


> Check the video out at the bottom this page
> 
> Cheers
> 
> http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day...-by-step?page=6


I have seen this a few times , the guy has way to much money. He has spent big bucks on some stuff and totally ignored some other parts of the brewery.
Like its looks blingy but its no easier or better than the average home brewers setup.
Nev


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## cdbrown (26/3/12)

I have a dial gauge on the tun measuring the grain bed and a probe for the PID at the HERMS outlet. If I just do a single temp - over the mash even though the temp of the herms is constant, the grain bed will slowly drop a degree or two. When ramping - I have the controller set to 1c a min rise, but the grain bed lags behind quite a bit such that at the end of the 10min ramp from 54 to 64, the herms says 64 but the bed would only be about 58 and will take a considerable amount of time to catch up. Also the grain bed will never actually reach the target temp due to heat losses in the system. I always try to open the valve fully during temp ramps and give the grain bed a stir every so often to remove any channeling and this does help with slightly increasing the grain bed ramp temp.

It's always confused me as to what the right measurement is - is it the small amount of liquid going through the herms warming up as it goes through the coil only to then cool again as it mixes with the grain bed.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (26/3/12)

cdbrown said:


> I have a dial gauge on the tun measuring the grain bed and a probe for the PID at the HERMS outlet. If I just do a single temp - over the mash even though the temp of the herms is constant, the grain bed will slowly drop a degree or two. When ramping - I have the controller set to 1c a min rise, but the grain bed lags behind quite a bit such that at the end of the 10min ramp from 54 to 64, the herms says 64 but the bed would only be about 58 and will take a considerable amount of time to catch up. Also the grain bed will never actually reach the target temp due to heat losses in the system. I always try to open the valve fully during temp ramps and give the grain bed a stir every so often to remove any channeling and this does help with slightly increasing the grain bed ramp temp.
> 
> It's always confused me as to what the right measurement is - is it the small amount of liquid going through the herms warming up as it goes through the coil only to then cool again as it mixes with the grain bed.


There are so many variables which change with each brew, bigger the grain bed slower the ramp and lower grain bed temps.
Like you say, what is the right temp. I guess keep good records and see how your beer turns out compared to mash set temps and go for there.
Nev


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## Wolfy (26/3/12)

While there is some useful information in this thread, what is the conclusion about the 'best' wort return system?
Silicon hose
Sparge/spray arm
Cup-type wort return 'system'
... other?

Or do they essentially perform the same?


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## hsb (26/3/12)

cdbrown said:


> It's always confused me as to what the right measurement is - is it the small amount of liquid going through the herms warming up as it goes through the coil only to then cool again as it mixes with the grain bed.



The HERMS output is measurable, controllable and repeatable. That seems like the important aspect of HERMS, repeatability.

I don't stir my grain bed, it's the liquid washing through it that's important, not the grain itself. 

I don't know what the flow rate of my pump is but I'd guess there are a few litres of liquid moving through the HERMS every minute, in a small closed system doing single batches, that means the liquid is at perfect temp regularly.

In conclusion, zzzz  Stick with the single temp reading, see if it conforms with expectations in terms of the wort produced, it should do in my unqualified unexpert opinion.


re: Mash returns. There's some 'interesting' stuff from Palmer here on fluid mechanics.
http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixD-2.html

Palmer seems to suggest 2 drains from the base are the best way to minimise channelling but I've never seen a setup that actually did this. I suppose a manifold is the closest thing, distributing the drainage at the mash base.

I think so long as it isn't channelling, it doesn't matter too much. FWIW I found just lying a silcon tube on the grain bed did channel but that's just my experience, others seem to go OK. I use a Beerbelly return dish now, but anything to distribute the returning wort could be OK, thought about a copper showerhead previously.


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## Adam Howard (26/3/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I have seen this a few times , the guy has way to much money. He has spent big bucks on some stuff and totally ignored some other parts of the brewery.
> Like its looks blingy but its no easier or better than the average home brewers setup.
> Nev



I agree. It's hilarious seeing them make these 5 gallon batches of Mild in 70L Blichmann pots. Must be like a 3 inch mash bed! The cost in their control panel alone is hideous. They'd be making no better beer than some bloke who knows the ins and outs of his gravity fed rig with a cooler mashtun.


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## QldKev (26/3/12)

hsb said:


> The HERMS output is measurable, controllable and repeatable. That seems like the important aspect of HERMS, repeatability.
> 
> I don't stir my grain bed, it's the liquid washing through it that's important, not the grain itself.
> 
> ...




I agree 100% with this point. I brewed BIAB and was happy with it, if is a great way to make good beer. The only reason I moved to 3V was to be able to use a heat exchanger for that exact reason _"measurable, controllable and repeatable"_. If your running a decent pump you should be turning over the entire volume of you wort in a few minutes. 

QldKev


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## hsb (26/3/12)

Same here QK, though I seem to have spent every waking moment since pissing around with my setup and changing it so much nothing has been repeated! Stop it! 

But I think this


> turning over the entire volume of you wort in a few minutes.


 means that so long as your Mash return distributes the returning wort in such a way that the whole bed is getting rinsed, it can be anything (sanitary) at all.

If you're using silicon tubing, then the wort aerator seems like a simple cheap idea, or putting a stopper on the end and cut holes in the tubing to spray the wort out. Someone else here runs it into a metal camping cup I seem to recall, a 'ghetto' Beerbelly style return.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (26/3/12)

hsb said:


> Same here QK, though I seem to have spent every waking moment since pissing around with my setup and changing it so much nothing has been repeated! Stop it!
> 
> But I think this means that so long as your Mash return distributes the returning wort in such a way that the whole bed is getting rinsed, it can be anything (sanitary) at all.
> 
> If you're using silicon tubing, then the wort aerator seems like a simple cheap idea, or putting a stopper on the end and cut holes in the tubing to spray the wort out. Someone else here runs it into a metal camping cup I seem to recall, a 'ghetto' Beerbelly style return.


Ok so here we go , believe in HSA or not, I like to have my returning wort sub surface so it has very little chance of HSA. Spaying or slashing is right out in my books.
Nev


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## cdbrown (26/3/12)

QldKev said:


> If your running a decent pump you should be turning over the entire volume of you wort in a few minutes.
> 
> QldKev



I find that full throttle on the tun outlet valve causes a compact grain bed and channeling on my system (and reduced efficiency). Rice hulls and a thinner grist (3L/kg) have helped to reduce this problem. Maybe I need to increase the gap on the mill a notch but the march pump really does suck the grain down onto the false bottom.


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## hsb (26/3/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Ok so here we go , believe in HSA or not, I like to have my returning wort sub surface so it has very little chance of HSA. Spaying or slashing is right out in my books.
> Nev


Ha! HSA! :lol: 
Ideally better not to splash you're right, so as not to invoke HSA discussion.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (26/3/12)

hsb said:


> Ha! HSA! :lol:
> Ideally better not to splash you're right, so as not to invoke HSA discussion.


I mentioned it but I think I got away with it. h34r: 
Nev


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## QldKev (26/3/12)

hsb said:


> Ha! HSA! :lol:
> Ideally better not to splash you're right, so as not to invoke HSA discussion.




lol, what's the successor of HSA, it's HSB

sorry, it was funny in my mind at the time


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## argon (26/3/12)

That'd be Hot Side Botulism, kev


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## QldKev (26/3/12)

I should have mentioned that, 

as long at it's not sucking down the mash and splashing on the return


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## raven19 (26/3/12)

Wolfy said:


> While there is some useful information in this thread, what is the conclusion about the 'best' wort return system?
> Silicon hose
> Sparge/spray arm
> Cup-type wort return 'system'
> ...



Whatever works for you in your brewery imo!

I used to use a silicon hose drainin onto a foil tray with holes punched in it. Now I use a copper ring with a heap of holes drilled in it.

When my MT is chockers doing a barley wine, I just have the wort return draining direct onto the grain bed at a low flow rate...

As long as you are not disturbing your grain bed (negating the top inch which is neither here nor there) you will be fine.


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## pk.sax (26/3/12)

raven19 said:


> Whatever works for you in your brewery imo!
> 
> I used to use a silicon hose drainin onto a foil tray with holes punched in it. Now I use a copper ring with a heap of holes drilled in it.



My imperfect mash tun manifold ring is now on this duty, the slots were slightly too wide so I got a fb and the ring will be a sparge/recirculating arm. Now if I can just sort out a new kettle!


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## Wolfman (15/11/12)

I am really interested to see some pics of what people are using for the wort return. I am looking into Rims/Herms and need to gain a better idea of this. I have a Rubbermaid cooler that I use for my mash tun, but any pics at all will do.


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## browndog (15/11/12)

Kaiser Soze said:


> *Is it feasible to measure the temperature in the centre of the mash tun, and stop the pump recirculating when the desired temp is reached?* If you have the water at near to boiling temps in the heat exchanger, then the ramp times should be pretty good and while there might be times where the liquid exiting the HX is higher than the set temp, this is only momentary until it mixes in with the cooler water in the mash tun.
> 
> The downside is that when the pump is turned off, the small volume of liquid within the coils heats up dramatically over sac temps, but as Nev points out, this isn't different to decocting. The benefit is that there's no overshooting/undershooting/lagging issues for the grain bed, which is where the majority of conversion is happening.
> 
> Is this feasible, or is there some reason why this isn't done?




That is essentially how my brewery works using a mash PID to switch on an pump and energise the HX PID and element. here

cheers

Browndog


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## razz (15/11/12)

Wolfman said:


> I am really interested to see some pics of what people are using for the wort return. I am looking into Rims/Herms and need to gain a better idea of this. I have a Rubbermaid cooler that I use for my mash tun, but any pics at all will do.


Her is a pic of mine Wolfman, I use a RIM system.


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## Thefatdoghead (15/11/12)

King Brown Brewing said:


> Can I please get some ideas on wort return for my HERMS?
> 
> I currently just use a piece of silicone tubing that sits on top of the mash with a float, but I think I am getting too much channelling with this.
> 
> Any photos/ ideas would be greatly appreciated.


I don't know your setup Dan but if you have a round mash tun you could make a simple copper/stainless sparge arm that spins 360 degrees with hot wort returning back over your mash. I spose you would have to vorlof until first runnings were clear for this to work but I have seen the same idea except bigger in an english brewery making 20m2 a day. The arm just spun from the flow of the wort coming out the nozzles (or holes) in the arm. If your tricky with a lathe or know someone you can make it without any seals in the vertical shaft. 
I have seen a homebrewer use one and it worked perfect. The mash at the english brewery just floated about 600mm from the perferated bottom in the tun, they just adjusted the flow rate so it stayed at the right height. 
Not sure if that was the answer you were after but thats what I always wanted to make when I had a 3 vessel.

Gav

Edit-Was it wort return for whirlpool or recirculation? Sorry.


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## Adam Howard (15/11/12)

I use a stainless soup ladle with the silicon tubing zip-tied to the handle. Works a treat, permanently borrowed the ladle from my folks and it mimics the action of an expensive Beerbelly mash return dish.

It has a hook on the end of the handle that hangs on the edge of the opening but the ladle can just sit on the grain bed as well.


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## Wolfman (15/11/12)

razz said:


> Her is a pic of mine Wolfman, I use a RIM system.



Cheers Razz.



Adamski29 said:


> I use a stainless soup ladle with the silicon tubing zip-tied to the handle. Works a treat, permanently borrowed the ladle from my folks and it mimics the action of an expensive Beerbelly mash return dish.
> 
> It has a hook on the end of the handle that hangs on the edge of the opening but the ladle can just sit on the grain bed as well.



That's what i'm talking about! Cheers Adamski!


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## barls (15/11/12)

nice what i was looking for.


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## Yob (16/11/12)

Wolfman said:


> I am really interested to see some pics of what people are using for the wort return. I am looking into Rims/Herms and need to gain a better idea of this. I have a Rubbermaid cooler that I use for my mash tun, but any pics at all will do.




Hay man, if thats a rectangular cooler Ive battled to get a good return and finally came up with this (which works quite well)




I quickly sketched up an elevation so you can see how it works.




I love that it's adjustable for variable grist sizes... I went through quite a bit of copper before I came up with this version  

used it about a half dozen times now and love it, will probably replace the timber support arm with an aluminium arm at some point if I can be arsed.

Yob


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## Wolfman (16/11/12)

Looks the goods Yob.


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## brettprevans (16/11/12)

I should have taken one with the whole herms rig visable. 

anyways here's what i had going. doubles for the Ghetto Eqiupment thread also! 



using the mash paddle and one of the kids coathangers that i commandeered.

if you have a keggle tun then the silicone tube does wrap around nicely inside the top lip. even more nicely if you have insulation on the silicon (you just just see mine - the black stuff). You can get if from bunnings in the piping/plumbing section


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