# Australian Barley Wine



## Thommo (18/8/08)

Hi Gents,

Excuse the drunken ramblings, but just had an epiphany while drinking a "Belgian Barley Wine".

I've been dreaming up a remembrance brew for my grandfather who passed away on Thursday. Sitting at the computer tonight while drinking a Belgian Bruin (Kasteel bier), I started thinking it was more like a Belgian Barley wine than a standard Brown due to it's 11% ABV. Got me thinking, has anyone made an Aussie Barley wine. This is what I want to make to put away for special occasions in his memory.

Here is where I ask the educated forum members for their recipe ideas and/or previous experience with this type of thing.

All I've got so far, is that it would obviously have to contain POR. Apart from that I'm a bit stuck. I've had a brief look at the style guidelines, and come up with the following.

If we think in the BJCP vein of things, we are talking Category 19.

I've scrubbed out 19A - Old Ale, as 1090 may not be strong enough for my liking. (wouldn't knock it back, but I will aim for higher to start with). The alternative is to make an Old Ale with a SG of 1085, as he was 85 when he passed away.

Looking at 19B (English) and 19C (US), I think I should be using the English guidelines. (POR at up to 120 IBU's? (US) If you'd consider it {Tony???} then you're a braver man than I.)

So, here is the "off the top of my head" starting point for an Aussie Barley Wine...I will be calling it the "Aussie Czar's Barley Wine." It's a family tradition thing, if you're wondering about the Czar bit. (no, I'm not Russian....)

7kg Maris Otter
250gm CaraMunich II
1kg wheat
1kg Sugar
100gm Choc Malt
100gm Cara Aroma. (Does anyone know the default for this in Promash? I can't find it...)
41sm POR Pellets (Will probably end up getting flowers) at 50.5 IBU's.

SG 1118
Est SRM 15.5

20 litre batch

Can you guys please give me some ideas/critiques etc on this recipe. If anyone has attempted (successfully or otherwise) I'd really like some info as this brew means a lot to me.

Last bit...the yeast. Left this off, as I have no idea. Wondering if the Coopers rehydrated from the bottle yeast can go this hi. Anyone?

Any info, thoughts, or half baked ideas are truly welcome.

Cheers Fella's,

Thommo.


edit: 20 litre batch bit. Didn't want you guys having to guess too many bits. Sorry, I'm onto the port now. Typing and any form of thinking is starting to get pretty difficult.


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## browndog (18/8/08)

I like the idea behind it Thommo, I think it will be a real balacncing act between high POR IBUs and the malt profile though and you will need a more robust yeast than Coopers, maybe nottingham perhaps? I'll follow this thread with interest.

cheers

Browndog


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## Thommo (18/8/08)

Cheers mate. Not sure what the highest SG anyone has fermented with Coopers yeast. Should I scrap this straight away and go for something more Suitable? Whitbread? (got some ready) Ringwood? (Never tried this one but always wanted to add it to my collection). Any suggestions?

Cheers,
Thommo.


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## Dave86 (18/8/08)

Sorry to hear about your grandad, I like your idea for the beer though. I think you've got the obvious covered with POR and coopers yeast. I was just wondering what your hopping schedule will be? I've not made a barleywine, but from my understanding of the guidelines you may want to consider some late hopping. I read something (maybe in radical brewing?) that barleywine (younger versions at least) should be hoppy as well as malty, an example of the essence of beer I think it was described as. My only other suggestion would be to up the bittering slightly as the perceived bitterness will diminish over the years.

Good luck with the brew, hope it turns out well for you

Dave


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## Adamt (18/8/08)

Whats with the pommy Maris Otter and the German caraaroma?

Dare I say replace some of the PoR with cluster? It may reduce a bit of the harshness of the PoR.

I say screw the BJCP guidelines for something like this.


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## Thommo (18/8/08)

G'day Dave86,

Was just thinking of 60 min bittering hops to be honest. English Barleywine mentions less emphasis on Hops than American Barley wine (even though it says it;s still a hoppy beer) . I just thought that meant (without thinking at all, obviously) that is was bittering hops only. Probably wrong. TBH, if i was to add some flameout hops, I would lean towards some Hallertau. (Maybe Cluster if I was a XXXX pussy, but I'm NSW through and through. This year's SOO hurt bad.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Cheers,
Thommo.


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## Thommo (18/8/08)

Good Points Adam T.

Should I swap the MO with JW Pale and a bit of JW Munich? As mentioned above, not a huge fan of Cluster, but could be swayed if enough people were to sing it's praises.

T


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## Thommo (18/8/08)

Also,

The CaraAroma was to add some Malt "complexity". Thought it may need it at that strength.


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## Muggus (18/8/08)

Interesting combination.
If you really wanted to make an Aussie style Barley wine, you may want to track down some other varieties of Aussie hops...Ross has quite a few to try in such an original style.
Plus Aussie malt might be the key, even if it isn't the same as the malt you can get overseas.


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## Tony (18/8/08)

Great idea!

I would say for Aussie conditions it should be a pale beer using all australian ingredients.

100% Aussie ale malt of choice.
Super pride for hops. They have a low Cohumulone level if your unsure of POR hopping. Personally i think its rubbish whats said about POR. I have a stout bittered to around 50 IBU with it and its great!

POR flowers would be the holy grail but........... use em if you can find em <_< 

here is what i would do. Keep it simple. Its an aussie beer you want........ not an english one 

mash at 64 deg and ferment with a dry english strain like 1275...... top yeast!

Aussie Barley Wine

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

19-B Strong Ale, English Barleywine

Min OG: 1.080 Max OG: 1.140
Min IBU: 35 Max IBU: 70
Min Clr: 16 Max Clr: 43 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 20.00 Wort Size (L): 20.00
Total Grain (kg): 8.00
Anticipated OG: 1.095 Plato: 22.69
Anticipated EBC: 15.7
Anticipated IBU: 60.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
100.0 8.00 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 7

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
42.00 g. Super Pride Pellet 15.10 60.0 45 min.


Yeast
-----

1275

Thats what i would do anyway. The simple things in life are often the best!

cheers


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## Adamt (18/8/08)

Maybe go half ale and half munich? I've never used JW munich and I'm not sure how much the maltiness will shine through in a massive beer like this.

The reason I suggested cluster is it's a little cleaner for bittering. Though if you boil your bittering hops for >90 minutes I dont think it will matter what you use.

If you can stretch the boundary to NZ (ANZAC?) I would dry hop with something like B Saaz or Pacific Hallertau!


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## Thommo (18/8/08)

Thanks guys for the ideas.

Adam T/Tony...You're both right. 100% Aussie Malts. I have plenty of JW Ale, Pils, and Munich. Tony, what are your thoughts on 50/50 Ale/Munich? Aussie enough? Too malty? I'm game to do 50-60 IBU's of POR only...I know you are the POR Champion. Just say the words and that is all I will use. Plus I think I can still get a decent amount of POR Flowers. (better check before I lock this bit in though. How will 60 IBU's of POR Pellets go?)

Cheers guys for the responses. I appreciate it.

BTW, does that mean no one thinks I should add any sugar?


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## warrenlw63 (18/8/08)

Thommo said:


> Cheers mate. Not sure what the highest SG anyone has fermented with Coopers yeast. Should I scrap this straight away and go for something more Suitable? Whitbread? (got some ready) Ringwood? (Never tried this one but always wanted to add it to my collection). Any suggestions?
> 
> Cheers,
> Thommo.



Thommo

Recultured Cooper's yeast will be fine. I've managed to get it to eat through a 12% Barley Wine before with no dramas. It's a pretty hungry breed.

In fact when I first started homebrewing it was a very popular choice for Imperial Stouts too.

Best of all keeps it in the Australian theme.

Warren -


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## Tony (18/8/08)

I recon with a bit 10% beer 100% ale malt will be malty enough. Dont use sugar.......... mash cooler so the yeast can dry it out.

I made an IIPA 1.090 and mashed at 63 deg. It fermented to 1.008 for about 11.5%. I used all ale malt with 5% cryatal and it ended up way way to malty. I used 600g of hops in 25 liters and it was malty.

JW ale will be maltier, IMC ale will be a bit lighter. Its going to be a big beer so think minimilist with the malts. You want it to be strong but quaffable.

I would almost even go the other way and say add some pils to lighten it a bit. ITs an aussie beer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dont use POR pellets

If you can get "FRESH" flowers, use them. If they are old......... forget them.

I still recon the low cohumulone Super pride hops would be great.

Youve inspired me with this mate.

Might brew one myself for my late grandfathers. I have 3 due to my grandmother re marrying.

One was a sargent in new guinea, one was an ant aircraft gunner in darwin and one was a captain in the australian navy.

Might brew it and mature it for anzac day next year for a toast to them.

I miss them all as im sure you miss yours. Grandfathers are always insperational characters.

Mate......... go with your heart and have fun with it. brew the beer how you want and how you recon he would have liked it.

cheers


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## kook (18/8/08)

I'm with Tony on this one. I'd stick to 100% Ale Malt. You'd be surprised how much malt flavour will come out of it at that gravity level. Super Pride seems like a good option for hops. Yeast is the difficult choice - Maybe WLP009 ?


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## Tony (18/8/08)

1275 :super:


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## hewy (19/8/08)

I was actually thinking about doing the exact same thing. I was looking at galaxy for hopping though - I figured I would aim more to the american barley wine end of the scale as I enjoy hoppiness.

Was looking at 1028 to ferment with - primarily because I have it in the fridge. Havent sorted out my grain bill yet but it was mainly JW ale and some crystal.

Do keep us updated on how yours goes.

cheers


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## Fourstar (19/8/08)

What about the other new AUS hop strains? Sure Pride is tried and tested but for some more complexity you could throw in some Galaxy, Millenium or even goto our NZ cousins for some Southern Cross. Sure their not Aussie, however the Southern Cross itself apart of Australias history!


I totally agree with following the Australian malt profile aswell! Do it once, do it right! I agree with Tony, follow your heart. This is something for you to enjoy, do what you thinks best mate!

Cheers!


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## mikem108 (19/8/08)

Hey, Galaxy being an Aussie hop, would make for a nice Barley wine hop. :icon_drool2:


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## warrenlw63 (19/8/08)

mikem108 said:


> Hey, Galaxy being an Aussie hop, would make for a nice Barley wine hop. :icon_drool2:




+1

Warren -


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## Swinging Beef (19/8/08)

What about culturing the yeast off the bottom of a Coopers Vintage Ale?
It's already worked to 7.5% so should be happy to keep going.
Also a good excuse to buy a few coopers vintage ale.
Mmmmm...


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## Adamt (19/8/08)

Yeast in the vintage ale is the same as the other ales... so you're better off getting healthier yeast from a fresher Mild or Pale!

You shouldn't need an excuse to buy vintage ale


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## reviled (19/8/08)

Im down with the Anzac barley wine, joint effort aye guys? :beer: 

Allthough the only kiwi thing you could use would be hops, I dont even think I can get NZ malt grain <_< Grrr...


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## petesbrew (19/8/08)

No real time to properly read the thread Thommo, but I've got a Coopers Vintage Ale yeast culture in my fridge that you can have if you want it for this.
Pete


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## T.D. (19/8/08)

Tony said:


> Super pride for hops. They have a low Cohumulone level if your unsure of POR hopping. Personally i think its rubbish whats said about POR. I have a stout bittered to around 50 IBU with it and its great!



I agree, I think the POR "don't go over 25 IBUs" rule is a bunch of you know what. I have brewed a number of beers in the past that have been much higher than that and have no harsh flavours.



warrenlw63 said:


> Recultured Cooper's yeast will be fine. I've managed to get it to eat through a 12% Barley Wine before with no dramas. It's a pretty hungry breed.



I also agree that Coopers will easily manage the high OG. Its very hardy stuff that coopers yeast. Dry Nottingham is terrible stuff IMO, I would never risk it on a brew like this that has a lot of meaning.


Thommo, I also like the idea of the 1.085 OG to mark your grandfather's age. I have brewed many beers around this OG and they have stood the test of time very well. With a healthy dose of bitterness (BU:GU of > 0.85) the beer will be drinking nicely in years to come. 

I also agree that Galaxy late should be awesome! I think this could be a fantastic brew. Great idea too mate, the perfect thing to bring out on special occasions and remember your grandfather by!


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## GMK (19/8/08)

Nice Ideas - like the galaxy hops and you need POR.
I also would stay with all Aussie Malt.

If you want to make an Aussie style that is dry then Mash at 64-65C and use 10% sugar to keep it lighter.
If you want more of an English Ale - then mash at 68C and go all malt.

Both could use some Oak 

Coopers Vintage Ale yeast would work - but make sure the starter is big and it is well aerated. 
1056 or 1275 will give a fruitier flavour.
Nottingham will be dryer.
1728 Scotish Ale is also a good chioce.

Hope this helps.


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## Thommo (19/8/08)

Thanks for all the replies guys.

I will go with something like this. Punch it up in Promash when I get home.

40 Litre batch

100% JW Ale to 1085
Mash at 63-64
Bitter with POR flowers to 50
Galaxy at flame out (never used them before, should be good)

I have decided to split a double batch and ferment one with a re-cultured Coopers yeast and one with 1275 - Thames Valley Ale yeast...never used it so good enough excuse in my book.

Will keep you posted. Probably brew it this Sunday if I can get the hops in time.

Thommo.


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## T.D. (19/8/08)

Thommo, if you have the ability to do it, perhaps you could try some wort caramelisation too?

I brewed a beer recently where I was trying to mimmick a "post WWII home brew" type beer (also a bit of a tribute to my grandfather). I figured I should use the most readily available modern ingredients around - 100% JW Ale - as that's all they would have had during rationing (ie the 1940s equivalent). But to jazz things up a bit a vigorously boiled the first runnings down to half its initial volume before continuing with the rest of the sparge. The beer turned out a lovely copper colour, and had a nice malty toffee character. Added a real "3rd dimension" to the flavour.


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## Muggus (19/8/08)

GMK said:


> Both could use some Oak


Oak eh? Gotta keep it Aussie too...
See if Penfolds will lend you a used Grange barrel! :lol:


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## T.D. (19/8/08)

At over $5000 per barrel it would have to be a very old one i think! :lol:


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## kook (19/8/08)

Muggus said:


> Oak eh? Gotta keep it Aussie too...
> See if Penfolds will lend you a used Grange barrel! :lol:



Penfolds use American oak barrels for Grange


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## T.D. (19/8/08)

Maybe a nice blackbutt barrel?


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## Tony (19/8/08)

Thommo said:


> Thanks for all the replies guys.
> 
> I will go with something like this. Punch it up in Promash when I get home.
> 
> ...



Sounds great mate!

I used Galaxy a few nights ago and its great stuff! very pungent so dont go overboard with it!

Keep up informed on how it goes

cheers


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## kook (19/8/08)

Thommo said:


> I have decided to split a double batch and ferment one with a re-cultured Coopers yeast and one with 1275 - Thames Valley Ale yeast...never used it so good enough excuse in my book.



Maybe even blend the two beers back together at bottling? I'd blend a few hundred ml's, taste and see what you think.


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## sp0rk (26/4/19)

Resurrecting this as I'm thinking about brewing an ANZAC Barleywine this weekend
BIAB Reiterated mash, I'll just split the grist into 2 equal lots, mashing around 65c
It'll go something along the lines of;

8kg Voyager Veloria
2kg BB Wheat Malt
300g Victory
A mix of Galaxy & NS to 60 IBU, a bunch late

I'll transfer to a corny once primary fermentation is done and add a few toasted oak staves (maybe 10g/L, possibly soaked in rum or an Aussie single malt)) and leave for at least 6 months before tasting

Any suggestions or input?


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## wide eyed and legless (27/4/19)

The only thing I would suggest is to bottle some and forget about them, I have 5 bottles left which are 2 years and 3 months old, my IBU was at the lower end about 35, they improve with age, gives a euphoric glow with each swallow.


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## devoutharpist (27/4/19)

I actually bottled a pseudo-Australian barley wine last night. While the malt bill wasn't Australian (MO and a little bit of crystal 120) i used only galaxy hops and a lot of them at that. 

Was sitting in secondary on some staves for about 5 months, the sample i tried while bottling was very hot... but it should round out nicely in a year or so. I only had two stave squares in there (can weigh if required) for about 20L and i would definitely increase that next time (or maybe leave it on there for longer than 5 months?). There wasn't that much barrel coming through on the sample, but maybe that'll be more present when it rounds out. So my advice is go hard on the oak, soaking in rum would be pretty good as well.


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## Grmblz (28/4/19)

As a lover/brewer of HG beers and an advocate of extended aging I am now very conflicted http://brulosophy.com/2019/04/15/impact-of-storage-temperature-on-high-og-beer-exbeeriment-results/ take from it what you will, personally I think if you enjoy oxidized flavours (as I do) then so be it, but the article does raise some interesting questions.


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## ABG (28/4/19)

sp0rk said:


> Resurrecting this as I'm thinking about brewing an ANZAC Barleywine this weekend
> BIAB Reiterated mash, I'll just split the grist into 2 equal lots, mashing around 65c
> It'll go something along the lines of;
> 
> ...


Why not try some kveik to ferment? It'll finish fermentation faster and as a bonus, will condition much faster too. Please note, I haven't done this yet myself, just going off what David Heath and a number of brewers on the other forum have said. I'm going to give it a whirl with a RIS in the not too distant future - not worlds apart from what you're doing.


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## sp0rk (29/4/19)

ABG said:


> Why not try some kveik to ferment? It'll finish fermentation faster and as a bonus, will condition much faster too. Please note, I haven't done this yet myself, just going off what David Heath and a number of brewers on the other forum have said. I'm going to give it a whirl with a RIS in the not too distant future - not worlds apart from what you're doing.


Because I want to use an Australian yeast, it's an Australian Barleywine not a Norwegian Barleywine
I plan on using recultured dregs from a few longnecks of Coopers Sparkling
Also I've not been able to find any over the last few months while I've been looking


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## ABG (29/4/19)

sp0rk said:


> Because I want to use an Australian yeast, it's an Australian Barleywine not a Norwegian Barleywine
> I plan on using recultured dregs from a few longnecks of Coopers Sparkling
> Also I've not been able to find any over the last few months while I've been looking


Gotcha. As you can tell, I didn't read the earlier posts from this thread. You could always think of it as a yeast from far, far north of Australia.


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## Cian Doyle (29/4/19)

sp0rk said:


> Because I want to use an Australian yeast, it's an Australian Barleywine not a Norwegian Barleywine
> I plan on using recultured dregs from a few longnecks of Coopers Sparkling
> Also I've not been able to find any over the last few months while I've been looking


Reading this thread someone stated that Coopers use the same yeast for all their ales, maybe if you can't find the sparkling ale another of the Coopers variety could be OK to use.


ABG said:


> Why not try some kveik to ferment? It'll finish fermentation faster and as a bonus, will condition much faster too. Please note, I haven't done this yet myself, just going off what David Heath and a number of brewers on the other forum have said. I'm going to give it a whirl with a RIS in the not too distant future - not worlds apart from what you're doing.


Without wanting to hijack this thread, when I watched the demonstration by Trong Nguyen, he used Kveik yeast to have his beers ready to drink within a week, but he did say that using any brewing yeast the same could be done.


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## sp0rk (29/4/19)

Though


Cian Doyle said:


> Reading this thread someone stated that Coopers use the same yeast for all their ales, maybe if you can't find the sparkling ale another of the Coopers variety could be OK to use..


Sorry, I should have clarified, I haven't been able to find Kveik yeast in stock anywhere
But I have sorted some dried kveik yeast this afternoon...

I have been told by a few people that the Sparkling Ale yeast has some differences, whether that's flavour or hardiness, I don't know


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## wide eyed and legless (29/4/19)

Simple answer, it is not a race, high ABV beers take time, even looking at Coopers Vintage some folk buy them and keep them for a few years to improve.


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## sp0rk (29/4/19)

Yeah, I'm definitely happy to wait
I'm finally taking my parental leave (7 weeks after the little one is born) starting this weekend, so I plan on knocking out a Barleywine and a RIS since I'll have time to make some beers that take a full day to brew, not just the 4 hours saisons & basic ales I've been making lately
I'll pop them both in cornies, flush with co2 and age them in the coolest part of the house


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