# Is My Brew Infected?



## hughman666 (25/1/07)

Hi all,

I brewed an AG pilsner on Saturday (single batch) but because i have a slow fermenting kolsch taking up my 100 can cooler, i stuck this one in a 20L jerry (and expelled 95% of headspace) to wait until this weekend to pitch the wyeast 2000 budvar yeast.

all sounds good right? well i came home from work on monday to find the 20L jerry puffed up like a rice bubble. i released the pressure and then expelled the headspace again. 2 hours later it was puffed up again. i then transferred it to a fermenter because it has an airlock and decided to leave it these until this weekend to pitch the yeast.

i came home from work today and found there was a layer of foam on top of the wort (like a krausen) with some solidified bits in there (may have been hops residue, this pilsner had a lot of czech saaz in it).

is this an infection? i've never had a brew infected before as i'm meticulous with my hygiene, but i do realise it can happen once in a while.

should i waste my budvar yeast on this or cut my losses and do another one this weekend?

cheers,

hugh


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## Adamt (25/1/07)

Doesn't sound that flash.

Take a hydro reading, compare it to your first reading (if you have one), then smell and taste it. If it tastes at all fermented/funky it's dead.


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## Ross (25/1/07)

It's infected without any doubt at all... I'd have tipped it before it even got near one of my fermenters. Bad luck....

Cheers Ross


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## Darren (25/1/07)

I am surprised that this is not happening to more of you "wort storers"  
cheers

Darren


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## DJR (25/1/07)

Darren said:


> I am surprised that this is not happening to more of you "wort storers"
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Here we go again, don't start Darren.

For a start, it doesn't sound like it was stored hot into the cube.

Doesn't sound like the cube was sterilised.

Didn't purge all the headspace (10% headspace is too much)

I've now done almost 20 no-chill batches with only 1 infection from a pretty poor set of methods, i didn't put the wort into the cube when it was hot enough (and plenty of them have done pretty well in comps).

Anyway to the OP, bad luck, that's an infection.


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## Lukes (25/1/07)

Hugh,
This happened to me with a wheat.
It was a cleaning problem with so now they get a rinse, soak in nappy sam for at least 2 days and at least 20 mins of phos acid before filling.

If the cube was clean, check ( clean ) your kettle tap and hose's.

- Luke


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## berapnopod (25/1/07)

You're fermenting an authentic lambic!!!

Sorry it wasn't your intention.

Probably won't turn out good if you're fermenting above 17C though.

But if you are fermenting at lower temps, just be patient (about a year or so), and you just might have a nice geuze.

Otherwise chuck it. If you ever make a wort, chill it and don't pitch the yeast within 24 hours or less, depending on sanitation, the wild yeast and bacteria will take over.

Berp.


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## Cortez The Killer (25/1/07)

Hughman666

Can you advise if you transfered the wort into the cube while it was hot?

How did you sanitise the cube?

Have you used the no chiller method before?

Cheers


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## berazafi (25/1/07)

berapnopod said:


> You're fermenting an authentic lambic!!!
> 
> Sorry it wasn't your intention.
> 
> ...





mmm a bolulism (sp) lambic, that may have a decent kick to it


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## Tony M (25/1/07)

If you have used this container for storing fermented brews, i.e. for cold conditioning, if you are lucky, you may have just got an early start with a good yeast (it has happened to me).I would give it a sniff and and a taste before you spread it on the turf.


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## kook (25/1/07)

berapnopod said:


> You're fermenting an authentic lambic!!!
> 
> Probably won't turn out good if you're fermenting above 17C though.
> 
> But if you are fermenting at lower temps, just be patient (about a year or so), and you just might have a nice geuze.



I doubt that there will be enough unique organisms to provide an authentic lambic character present, most probably only a few that survived the cleaning.

I'm curious as to why you think it must be fermented below 17C? Several lambic brewers have no temperature control, and their cellar spaces definately exceed this during the summer months.

Also, Gueuze is a blended beverage (usually of varying vintages), so he'd actually just end up with a unblended plambic like beer.


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## Jazzafish (25/1/07)

I give you the benifit of the doubt about cleaning, and racking at next to boiling temps, so I guess it could have been windy that day and some wild yeast blew it... or a fly or some insect made its way into the brew while your back was turned?

Either way it is fermenting via some unintended method. I'd get ready to bleach bomb some gear... or culture up some slurry that has defied the odds and produced a new world class beer? Ok unlikely, but it would be nice


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## hughman666 (25/1/07)

thanks for the replies everybody. it's already down the sink and onward we go....

as for the replies, it was no-chilled first, filtered out any remaining trub and then transferred to the cube for storage at room temps. for the record, i've done this numerous times without incident but i have recently changed sanitizing solution (won't name names) and i think this is where infection may have crept in. from now on i will return to my 2 days bleach & 2 days napisan combo, as this seems to kill anything that may pose a threat.

i'll move towards 0% headspace in the cube for safety sake and go from there.

thanks again everyone!


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## Finite (25/1/07)

:unsure: Ummm....i havnt been squeezing out any of the headspace before when no chill didnt know i need to.... add that to the list hehehe.

4 beers done with no chill without squeezing and no infection though.


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## PostModern (25/1/07)

hughman666 said:


> transferred to the cube for storage at room temps.



There's your problem.


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## pint of lager (25/1/07)

hughman, just to clarify, you no chilled, then strained when cool?

Best results with no chill are transfer above 80 degrees to a very well cleaned and sanitised cube, squeeze all the headspace out and seal. Tip cube on its side so that the hot wort sanitises the lid seal. Do not crack the seal till you have an active yeast ready to pitch.


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## hughman666 (25/1/07)

PostModern said:


> There's your problem.



um, no because as i said, having done this numerous times, i have had no infection. i'm putting this down to a change in sanitizing product. 

unless of course you're making the bold call that wort cannot be stored long-term at room temps?!


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## Screwtop (25/1/07)

PostModern said:


> There's your problem.




Yep, there IS your problem! Relying on No Chill or hot wort to sanitise vessels. How many times does it need to be said, SANITISE YOUR FERMENTERS/CUBES/WHATEVER. And the best method - a cheap non-perfumed BLEACH SOLUTION, whether you are transferring hot or cooled wort you should sanitise whatever container you are transferring to. Good simple effective brewing procedures.


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## geoffi (25/1/07)

transferred to the cube for storage at room temps.


There's your problem."



I really don't see how this could be a problem in itself. All those commercial fresh wort kits seem to sit around at room temps with no probs.

I fill cubes shortly after flameout and whirlpooling, and keep headspace to a minimum in the cube. This also eliminates extra oxygen. The temp is high enough to pasteurise, so I don't believe infection at this point is a serious risk.

I also ferment undiluted (with a good starter to kick things off quickly), and dilute on bottling. I figure the extra alcohol will guard against infections.


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## hughman666 (25/1/07)

Screwtop said:


> Relying on No Chill or hot wort to sanitise vessels.



i cant see where i said that i was trying to achieve this. i have sanitized the cube each time with no issue, however upon changing sanitizing solution this has seemed to have a different result (read: infection).

please don't try to turn this into a cheap-shot argument against the no-chiller method.

thanks,

hugh


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## berapnopod (25/1/07)

berazafi said:


> mmm a bolulism (sp) lambic, that may have a decent kick to it



A little bit off topic, but...

I have heard some heresay about botulism in wort, but nothing concrete.

Apparently wort pH is on the upper limit for inhibiting botulinum. Wort = 5.2, botulinum is stopped at 4.8.
Hops also suppress bacterial growth, and presumably will limit botulinum as well.

So it sounds like its right on the edge of being possible, but I would really like to see something more substantial on the issue.

But the thing I keep coming back to is, if botulism is possible in wort - especially given the current circumstances of this thread, then why isn't lambic beer associated with it? Either botulism lambic is a tautology or a myth.

Berp.


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## Keifer (25/1/07)

> from now on i will return to my 2 days bleach & 2 days napisan combo, as this seems to kill anything that may pose a threat.



Mate, 2 days sanitising is way too much. I clean my fermenters out immediatley after use with hot water and leave them till i use them next. One rinse with boiled water and then some iodophor spray, done in 5 mins. Haven't had one infection yet 

Of course your just leaving them sitting so i guess it's only the time taken to actually fill/empty/rinse them which would not be too long? Hope they come up smelling of nothing what so ever after 2 days!

Cheers,
Keith


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## berapnopod (25/1/07)

kook said:


> I doubt that there will be enough unique organisms to provide an authentic lambic character present, most probably only a few that survived the cleaning.
> 
> I'm curious as to why you think it must be fermented below 17C? Several lambic brewers have no temperature control, and their cellar spaces definately exceed this during the summer months.
> 
> Also, Gueuze is a blended beverage (usually of varying vintages), so he'd actually just end up with a unblended plambic like beer.



Re: fermentation temperature...
Its better to be on the cooler side for initial innoculation as it reduces bacterial activity, with respect to wild yeast activity. If inital temperature is too high, you end up with a balance of byproducts too heavily biased towards the phenolic.

Note that even in summer, nighttime temperatures, when innoculation occurs are not gonna get much higher than 17C in Belgium.

You're right about my incorrect use of gueuze. It would be a plambic.

As to your first comment about whether there would be enough gremlins to do a reasonable imitation of a lambic, I am not sure. I know a lot of people say that you can only get the right mix of wild yeasts and bacteria when in the right valley in Belgium, but I am not convinced. My intuition (read as unsubstantiated musing) is that if you have the right temp and method you can do this in Austrlalia. Hence my .sig which says I will one day brew a gueuze (now updated to a lambic - thanks).

Berp.

Edit: One thing I forgot to ask hughman666...
If you think its your sanitiser that was the problem, then I think you'd be doing the community a service by naming names.


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## PostModern (25/1/07)

hughman666 said:


> um, no because as i said, having done this numerous times, i have had no infection. i'm putting this down to a change in sanitizing product.
> 
> unless of course you're making the bold call that wort cannot be stored long-term at room temps?!



I'm a no-chiller myself. Currently have 2 cubes sitting at ambient for a couple of weeks. Many beers fermented and drunk after storage. No problem. 

The bit I quoted seemed to imply that you ~transferred~ the wort into cube at room temperature after "no chilling" . That would be a possible cause of infection.


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## redgums500 (26/1/07)

PostModern said:


> I'm a no-chiller myself. Currently have 2 cubes sitting at ambient for a couple of weeks. Many beers fermented and drunk after storage. No problem.
> 
> The bit I quoted seemed to imply that you ~transferred~ the wort into cube at room temperature after "no chilling" . That would be a possible cause of infection.



Here Here Post Modern.

If you are going to No Chill use HOT WORT ! pronouced HOT repeat HOT wert !!! 
If I was bacteria I would be loving that cube of yours Hughmann, no matter how much sanitiser you added before the wort arrived at room temp.

Cheers

Redgums


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## hughman666 (26/1/07)

PostModern said:


> The bit I quoted seemed to imply that you ~transferred~ the wort into cube at room temperature after "no chilling" . That would be a possible cause of infection.



i typically transfer to cube after ~ 24 hrs of no-chilling to filter out any remaining trub. this is usually at around the 22-26c range and it sits there for anything from 7 - 30 days before bringing down to pitching temps.

for the record, the offending sanitizer was a sodium bimetasulphate solution.

bleach & napisan has always been foolproof and this fool will be returning to such a method from here on in.....


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## Stuster (26/1/07)

Personally, I just don't think you need to be doing that step. Just leave it in the first cube and avoid the high risk of infection when transferring more or less room temp unfermented wort. I'm a no-chiller by the by. Are you finding too much trub getting into the cube? Whirlpooling can be helpful to avoid this if it is. Even if you get trub in the primary, this is not really a big issue IMO.


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## Adamt (26/1/07)

I'm just querying transferring cold wort to a new, sanitised cube, and the quoted risks involved in this. Is this a direct result of sanitation not killing everything, allowing nasties to stay in there to attack the vulnerable cool wort?

I'm assuming by racking hot wort, the heat will effectively "pasteurise" anything left in the cube? If so, isn't it possible to "pasteurise" with mega hot orthophosphoric solution for half an hour/an hour or so before transfer to completely eliminate this risk?

I currently no-chill by spraying the inside of the kettle and kettle lid with orthophosphoric solution after flameout, fit the lead and leave to cool. After cool, I typically transfer straight to fermenter and pitch within a few hours (temperature depending). I'm interested in this as I may in the future wish to store wort, I really dislike the thought of transferring nearly boiling hot wort and squeezing a nearly boiling hot plastic cube


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## Ross (26/1/07)

Adam,

Exposing your sugar rich wort to the atmosphere is asking for trouble, it only needs the slightest contamination for it to get infected. If simply transferring to the fermenter for pitching your yeast, it's pretty safe, as the sheer numbers of viable yeast will overide most small infections. But transferring to another container for long term storage is a lottery, however well you sterilise the containers.

Cheers Ross


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## Stuster (26/1/07)

Well, I guess if you can do an airless transfer you'll be fine.  

The air is full of germs and nasties (Howard Hughes was right all along) which would love to snack on your wort. If you pitch some yeast, they will hopefully be outcompeted/killed off by the alcohol. If you just leave the wort in a cube after transferring it cold, they are just in there by themselves having fun at your expense. If you transfer hot, it is above the pasteurisation temperature and the majority (hopefully all) of the spoilers should be killed off before they can do any damage.

Transferring warm is pretty easy really. To get the air out of the cube, prop it against a step or something like that and squeeze. (use of a towel or something like that is recommended.  )


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## Stuster (26/1/07)

You again, Ross. :lol:


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## Bobby (26/1/07)

i really think you are wasting your time filtering the trub off the NC

i have got to post some pictures of my beers, they have had all trub included and drop crystall clear and have no off flavours whatsoever. i brewed some lighter styles (pils and koelsche) on purpose to see if there were any off flavour that are supposedly caused by the inclusion of trub. Both were fine and clear as you like.


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## Finite (26/1/07)

Ill just throw my experience in.

Im currently no chill but chilling is something I would like to do, for one thing it helps the trub drop out of suspension, is that right?

At the moment when its 90+ after whirlpool and irish moss + sit for 20min my trub is still very "floaty" for lack of a better word.

Anywho heres what I do at the moment, spray lid with no rinse and place on kettle at flame out to sanitize. Whirlpool, spray lid again and place on kettle. Wait 20min for trub to settle. I transfer into a sanitized jerry can which I put sanitizing solution in at the beginning of the brewday while im heating the stike water. Throught the brew day I give it a shake and tip and put it of a differnt side to sit everytime. I havnt been squeezing the air out but I will from now on, all my worts have been sucked IN when i get to them in the morning. No infection yet.

What does everyone think about attaching the racking hose to the tap of the jerry and underletting it into the jerry with the lid turned back a little to push the air out?


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## PostModern (26/1/07)

Ross said:


> Adam,
> 
> Exposing your sugar rich wort to the atmosphere is asking for trouble, it only needs the slightest contamination for it to get infected. If simply transferring to the fermenter for pitching your yeast, it's pretty safe, as the sheer numbers of viable yeast will overide most small infections. But transferring to another container for long term storage is a lottery, however well you sterilise the containers.
> 
> Cheers Ross



Absolutley. The *proven* method of no-chill is as Ross describes. Just rack it into a cube/jerry while at pastuerisation temps (86C ?? or higher), seal immediately with as little air as possible and just leave it there until pitching. You can leave the cold break in the jerry when you pour into your fermenter if that matters to you.


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## Adamt (26/1/07)

Looks like I might change my ways and give hot transfer a crack!

I'm brewing for a mate next week so he can be my guinea pig


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## Darren (26/1/07)

Is there any chance of leaching plasticisers out of the jerry at 85C + temps?

cheers

Darren


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## PostModern (26/1/07)

Darren said:


> Is there any chance of leaching plasticisers out of the jerry at 85C + temps?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Darren



Dunno. Can they be tasted? ESB, G&G, NNL and others have been doing this for years. Never noticed a "plastic" taste in any professional wort kit I've bought, nor in the 9 or 10 I've made myself. I use HDPE containers which are food grade. I believe they're non-leaching, although I've never asked that specific question.


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## Darren (26/1/07)

PostModern said:


> Dunno. Can they be tasted? ESB, G&G, NNL and others have been doing this for years. Never noticed a "plastic" taste in any professional wort kit I've bought, nor in the 9 or 10 I've made myself. I use HDPE containers which are food grade. I believe they're non-leaching, although I've never asked that specific question.




The only reason I ask is because it appears everyone is effectively melting their jerry's. I suspect that this would release plasticisers (ie. you have just melted it). I dont know if they have a taste!

Do the commercial producers pour in at boiling?

cheers

Darren


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## tangent (26/1/07)

that's EXACTLY the reason I've been worrried by the no-chill method Darren & PoMo.

Even more after doing my 1st no-chill after 35+ AG brews and was horrified to see the cube melting so much.
the beer still tastes good but i always thought the majority of plastics were not flash for humans at high temps.

edit - "Do the commercial producers pour in at boiling?" Commercial wort producers or commercial beer producers Darren?


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## PostModern (26/1/07)

Darren said:


> Do the commercial producers pour in at boiling?




I believe they do. Well, not at boiling, but in the 80's, after the whirlpool and settling. 

If it is an issue, wouldn't all the plastic/electric brewers be suffering horribly by now? After all, they boil in HDPE for an hour or more. How about us plastic esky mashers? My esky's liner deforms at strike temp, so I imagine the zapap mashers' HDPE tuns and manifolds would also.

I'm no chemist, so all I have is anecdotal evidence to go on. I would genuinely be interested in seeing scientific articles about leaching plasticisers.


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## tangent (26/1/07)

> If it is an issue, wouldn't all the plastic/electric brewers be suffering horribly by now?



The big C can take longer than that :blink: :huh:


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## PostModern (26/1/07)

tangent said:


> The big C can take longer than that :blink: :huh:



They've been brewing in plastic for decades in the States. Maybe the lack of reports is because they've never associated the tumors with their brewing techniques? I agree there is a potential risk there, but I'd like to see hard evidence first. I'm pretty sure that things like Nuttella, jams, canned fruit etc that come out in HDPE containers are hot packed. I wonder if the producers did any testing for plasticiser release at temperature?


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## Ducatiboy stu (26/1/07)

HDPE can withstand long periods at 110*c

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_density_polyethylene


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## PostModern (26/1/07)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> HDPE can withstand long periods at 110*c
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_density_polyethylene



Nice find, Stu. If I wasn't brewing I would have looked at the old wikipedia myself. Although I generally trust it as a source of info, and in this case see no reason to doubt it, I like to see the article's sources (he says with a 85C wort freshly packed into HDPE).


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## Adamt (26/1/07)

Found this post from back in 2005: Here. It suggests a continuous heat rating of 90C for HDPE.

Some notes from a uni course I studied with a section on polymers suggests a melting point of HDPE as 137C, unfortunately plasticisers werent covered in great detail.

Of course we can't be completely certain which sources are accurate, what is certain is there is a lot of differences (rigidity, density, plasticiser content, etc) in different branded HDPE containers.

I dont think melting plastic is very good at all, melting would free the plasticisers from between the polymer strands.

I guess it might be a good idea to maybe test jerry cans at 80-90C before no-chilling with them?


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## PostModern (26/1/07)

Adamt, from the same thread you quoted:



Joel said:


> The plasticiser used in most food safe plastic products is generally citric acid.



No chill is only looking better and better.


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## Adamt (26/1/07)

Not too sure on the properties of the different plasticisers, I know they sit between the polymer strands to make the polymer more flexible.

I'd say melting plastic = freed plasticisers = not good.


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## PostModern (26/1/07)

Deforming != melting.


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## tangent (26/1/07)

> It suggests a continuous heat rating of 90C for HDPE.


 Does that mean the plastic can handle 100+C wort then? Is it suggesting that the plastic will survive or the person that drinks from it?


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## PostModern (26/1/07)

Pretty sure that continuous heat rating means that the plastic will remain in tact, ie will not be leaching ~anything~ at that temperature. There was a post indicating that food grade HDPE uses citric acid as a plasticiser, so there is no health risk.

I bought my no-chill cubes from Cospak. I'll send them an email requesting information about the product.


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## Adamt (26/1/07)

Depends on what we define as deformation:

Elastic deformation happens when you put liquid in the cube, squeeze it, whatever and is reversible.

Plastic deformation happens when the plastic changes shape (irreversibly). The mechanics involves parts of the polymer splitting, and reforming in a different shape, which could release plasticisers. i.e. effectively localised melting and setting. I'm assuming this is what tangent's cube did when he said it was "melting".


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## PostModern (26/1/07)

Adamt said:


> Depends on what we define as deformation:
> 
> Elastic deformation happens when you put liquid in the cube, squeeze it, whatever and is reversible.
> 
> Plastic deformation happens when the plastic changes shape (irreversibly). The mechanics involves parts of the polymer splitting, and reforming in a different shape, which could release plasticisers. i.e. effectively localised melting and setting. I'm assuming this is what tangent's cube did when he said it was "melting".



I've got a few cubes that have had up to three hot worts go thru them. All of them are normal shape when returned to room temp. Even this one is normal shaped now:


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## Adamt (26/1/07)

That cube would (based on my completely unverified logic) be fine for no-chill.

Quote from tangent: "Even more after doing my 1st no-chill after 35+ AG brews and was horrified to see the cube melting so much."

tangent: did your cube go back to normal shape? If not, it may have melted enough to release some plasticisers, that may have ended up in the wort, that may be detrimental to the flavour or health.


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## tangent (26/1/07)

yep, where it wrinkled and buckled, has generally stayed that way.

just a note on heat ratings, interesting to note that when i bought my too expensive food grade heat proof transfer hose, it has a FDA seppo heat rating of 120C but a CONSTANT rating of 80C. good for a splash but not 40litres i think.

edit - lead water pipes did the Romans all right for a while, it was the offspring who suffered the most.


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## redbeard (26/1/07)

2 things:

- my 20l blue rheem jerry has had hot 15l wort in it & squeezed such theres no headspace. when clean out with hot water it returned to normal shape. im guessing the temp of the wort was around 85-90c when filling the jerry.

- out of 15 or 20 no chill worts, ive had 1 that started puffing up. fortunately i was able to keg the current fermentor (dbl batching) & pitched onto the yeast cake & it turned out ok. it started puffing up on a really hot day (30c). the prev days were 20 or so. after cleaning, filled the jerry with a bleach solution & havent had the puffing repeat.


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## hughman666 (29/1/07)

ok quick update. i soaked the cube in bleach for a couple of days. used napisan for the cube overnight and then i did another brew on the weekend. belgian wit, and transferred it directly from the kettle to the cube 5 minutes after flameout. the cube buckled under the heat but i was able to get everything in with no headspace.

it sat in the jerry (with literally NO headspace) and left it on sunday to cool in the sink. got home this afternoon, puffed up like a rice bubble. straight down the sink.

i'm really over it now. 2 brews gone to waste. h34r:


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## PostModern (29/1/07)

hughman666 said:


> ok quick update. i soaked the cube in bleach for a couple of days. used napisan for the cube overnight and then i did another brew on the weekend. belgian wit, and transferred it directly from the kettle to the cube 5 minutes after flameout. the cube buckled under the heat but i was able to get everything in with no headspace.
> 
> it sat in the jerry (with literally NO headspace) and left it on sunday to cool in the sink. got home this afternoon, puffed up like a rice bubble. straight down the sink.
> 
> i'm really over it now. 2 brews gone to waste. h34r:



Chuck that cube and replace the hose from kettle to cube. What kind of hose do you use btw?


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## tangent (29/1/07)

i use napisan as a cleaner but always use an orthophosphoric sanitiser

it sounds like the weak link might be "transfer"

edit - my thoughts exactly PoMo


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## hughman666 (29/1/07)

the hose from the kettle to cube is the standard NETA tubing you get from bunnings. i always sanitize this along with the fermenters (ie soak it in the fermenter while sanitising) and then run boiling water through it prior to use.

maybe it's the cube although soaked it in a strong bleach solution for 2 days and then gave it an overnight bath of napisan.

when i transferred the wort it was only 5 minutes off a rolling boil so i assumed this would kill any final nasties lurking....

for the record, this is a far greater step than i normally go to....


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## Kai (29/1/07)

hughman666 said:


> i typically transfer to cube after ~ 24 hrs of no-chilling to filter out any remaining trub. this is usually at around the 22-26c range and it sits there for anything from 7 - 30 days before bringing down to pitching temps.
> 
> for the record, the offending sanitizer was a sodium bimetasulphate solution.
> 
> bleach & napisan has always been foolproof and this fool will be returning to such a method from here on in.....



Your problem has come from a combination of your choice of sanitiser and your chilling / storage methods.


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## bigfridge (29/1/07)

hughman666 said:


> ok quick update. i soaked the cube in bleach for a couple of days. used napisan for the cube overnight and then i did another brew on the weekend. belgian wit, and transferred it directly from the kettle to the cube 5 minutes after flameout. the cube buckled under the heat but i was able to get everything in with no headspace.
> 
> it sat in the jerry (with literally NO headspace) and left it on sunday to cool in the sink. got home this afternoon, puffed up like a rice bubble. straight down the sink.
> 
> i'm really over it now. 2 brews gone to waste. h34r:



Hughman666 - heat is a very effective sanatiser, but it has to contact (or be very near) all the surfaces in contact with the cooled wort.

Do you rotate etc your cube so that the lid and handle get at leat 15 minutes contact with the hot wort ? Contact means no insulating air bubbles.

If not you are just asking for trouble.

Dave


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## hughman666 (29/1/07)

bigfridge said:


> Hughman666 - heat is a very effective sanatiser, but it has to contact (or be very near) all the surfaces in contact with the cooled wort.
> 
> Do you rotate etc your cube so that the lid and handle get at leat 15 minutes contact with the hot wort ? Contact means no insulating air bubbles.
> 
> ...



i pushed out all air so that there was absolutely no headspace. it was a challenge but even the handle section was filled with wort.

i am really at a loss here....


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## hughman666 (29/1/07)

one more question. i made up a starter by running off approx 1 litre of the wort from the cube around 30 minutes after it being in there, so it was still piping hot. i then cooled this down in its own sanitised "starter bottle" (3 litre bottle fitted with airlock etc. the yeast (wyeast 3944) took to the wort and it's now sitting in the fridge awaiting it's turn to be pitched.

should this yeast be ok, considering it came from that wort - would the wort have become infected sometime today when the wort temp dropped to around the 30c mark?


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## PostModern (29/1/07)

Are you just yanking our chains? If not: Why are you opening the cube????? Once the wort is in there, don't open it until you're ready to put it into the fermenter and pitch yeast!! Hot and sealed wort is sanitary. It remains sanitary until you open it. Then, whatever microbe is fluttering around will find it an excellent place to settle down and raise a family. Especially at 30 degrees.

Dude, good luck.


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## hughman666 (29/1/07)

PostModern said:


> Are you just yanking our chains? If not: Why are you opening the cube????? Once the wort is in there, don't open it until you're ready to put it into the fermenter and pitch yeast!! Hot and sealed wort is sanitary. It remains sanitary until you open it. Then, whatever microbe is fluttering around will find it an excellent place to settle down and raise a family. Especially at 30 degrees.
> 
> Dude, good luck.



look, there's no need to be like that.

i ran some wort off from the tap, so the top lids weren't open. no air actually got in the cube, after closing the tap, the were still zero headspace. and this was after 30 mins in the cube so it was still boiling hot.

honestly, if you're going to be a tool don't bother responding.


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## Stuster (29/1/07)

It's still a possible source of infection though, hughman. It doesn't really seem that risky in the way you describe it, but I guess there's a chance there was something on the tap. After 30 minutes, I wouldn't be surprised if it was below pasteurisation temp. It'd still feel hot, but if it was under 60C then it's still a worry. Did you sanitise the tap before using it?

I can understand how frustrated you must be.  I've had infected brews before and it stinks. Personally, I still sanitise the cube with iodophor before using it, as well as a napisan soak at some point between uses. I think after all this, you'd be best off to get a new cube and hose and start from there. Hope you can solve this one.


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## hughman666 (29/1/07)

Stuster said:


> It's still a possible source of infection though, hughman. It doesn't really seem that risky in the way you describe it, but I guess there's a chance there was something on the tap. After 30 minutes, I wouldn't be surprised if it was below pasteurisation temp. It'd still feel hot, but if it was under 60C then it's still a worry. Did you sanitise the tap before using it?
> 
> I can understand how frustrated you must be.  I've had infected brews before and it stinks. Personally, I still sanitise the cube with iodophor before using it, as well as a napisan soak at some point between uses. I think after all this, you'd be best off to get a new cube and hose and start from there. Hope you can solve this one.



yeah i'm feeling pretty low about it all. in response to your questions, the entire cube was sanitised, tap included, using the bleach/napisan combo. there was no way it was under 60c as it was a 42c day in perth yesterday and the cube was still painfully hot to touch, considerably hotter than mash water during sparging. my guess would have been that it would have been in the late 80s at least.

do you think i should ditch the yeast?

i'm doing as you recommend and will throw out this cube and hose. hopefully my 3rd attempt will be better.

cheers,

hugh


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## berapnopod (29/1/07)

hughman666 said:


> one more question. i made up a starter by running off approx 1 litre of the wort from the cube around 30 minutes after it being in there, so it was still piping hot. i then cooled this down in its own sanitised "starter bottle" (3 litre bottle fitted with airlock etc. the yeast (wyeast 3944) took to the wort and it's now sitting in the fridge awaiting it's turn to be pitched.
> 
> should this yeast be ok, considering it came from that wort - would the wort have become infected sometime today when the wort temp dropped to around the 30c mark?



If you filled your cube with boiling hot wort and are sure there were no air pockets inside, and made sure all the surfaces got the boiling treatment, and you didn't open it, then its difficult for me to understand how any infection could have gotten in there! I mean the thing was sealed with boiling liquid, right?
I just don't see how an infection could have gotten in. Would have to be a pretty damn funky infection to be able to survive your sanitising regime of bleach and napisan, then boiling hot wort.

(small point, but I would have used the napisan first, then the bleach, then rinse)

Your collection method for the starter was to just open a tap at the bottom and collect some wort while it was still hot, right? I don't see how that could introduce an infection, unless the wort was below about 60C and you managed to suck up a bit of air in the process of opening the tap.

BTW, did you check your tap to make sure there wasn't any gunk in it, or the threads or anything like that?

You mentioned you managed to get 3 litres for the starter. That sounds like a lot to bleed off from a 20 litre container, without having air being sucked into the container. Did you squeeze the container to get the wort out?

Apart from the fact that I have *NO* idea how an infection could have gotten in there, given your regime for looking after the wort, if there was an infection, and your container puffed up, the infection is in the container, and so it will also be in your starter.

When your container puffed up, did you have a smell of the gas inside it (there was gas inside it, right?)? You should. Did it smell like CO2 or something else. This could give you a clue as to the type of infection.

For the starter, as I said, I reckon any infection will be in there as well. So if you chucked out our main wort without smelling or tasting it (wheres the slap-on-the-wrist emoticon?). Give your starter a smell now. If it smells fine, keep it sanitary and leave it for a week or two, and wach for any signs of infection, give it a smell etc. Do this at the same temp as your wort was.

If you wanage to get through a couple of weeks with no obvious problems with the starter then my best bet is that you did not have an infection in the first place, but I can't explain why the wort container puffed up.

Apologies for the excessive length, but thinking out loud here.

Berp.


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## hughman666 (29/1/07)

berapnopod said:


> You mentioned you managed to get 3 litres for the starter. That sounds like a lot to bleed off from a 20 litre container, without having air being sucked into the container. Did you squeeze the container to get the wort out?



i only drew off approx 1 litre, it is the starter container that is 3 litres.

i'm sure it is something to do with the cube as there is no other place for the brew to have become infected. it's the only place it went straight from the boil....


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## Stuster (29/1/07)

I'd say keep the yeast. Give it a taste and smell first, but my guess is that it'll be fine.

It seems very strange that you got an infection in fact. Your procedure sounds fine. Hopefully the new cube/tube will sort it out.


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## PostModern (29/1/07)

hugh,
No Chill has been proven to work this way:

Run wort into cube.
Seal cube.
Ensure all parts of the cube come into contact with hot wort.
Leave cube sealed until use.

If you want some wort for a starter, run it straight from the kettle after you've filled the cube, don't siphon or tap the cube. In fact, I don't even have tap on any of my hot wort cubes, it's just another place for microbes to lurk, and potentially for air to enter the cube as the wort chills and the pressure reduces. Best is an undrilled cube, but drilled and bunged are OK so long as you are meticulous with sanitation.

I apologise for my tone in my previous post. I was incredulous that you'd gotten all the advice in this thread then went and opened the cube to draw off your starter. No Chill only works when the wort is packed at or above pasteurisation temps then left hermatically sealed until you put millions of yeast cells into the wort at pitching temp. The yeast cells will fight off or overwhelm any stray bacteria or wild yeast by shear force of numbers. Wort below 80 is prone to infection. I'm surprised that infection is taking hold so quickly in your case, tho. 

I recommend you chuck the cube, start with a new one or a freshly emptied, cleaned and sanitised commercial wort pack. Iodophor or another no-rinse sanitiser is best. You'd be amazed at how much lives in tap water. Wort has no immune system until there is yeast in there.


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## Stuster (29/1/07)

PostModern said:


> I don't even have tap on any of my hot wort cubes.
> 
> Iodophor or another no-rinse sanitiser is best.



:super: :super: 

Ditto to both of those. There's no need for taps on hot wort cubes so I'd rather not do the work of cleaning and sanitising them.


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## hughman666 (29/1/07)

PostModern said:


> hugh,
> No Chill has been proven to work this way:
> 
> Run wort into cube.
> ...



thanks for the posts guys. im going to give it another crack this week but will try a new cube and hose.

will let you all know how it goes.


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## PostModern (29/1/07)

...and don't open it until you're ready to pitch! 

Some people get hung up on the air thing. If you look back in this thread where we were discussing HDPE leaching plasticisers and all that, you'll see a pic of one of my brews in too small a cube. I rolled that one upside down as soon as I sealed it, to ensure every surface was in contact with hot wort. That beer came out perfectly, so don't spend a lot of time squeezing all the air out. Just make sure the top of the pack comes into contact with the wort for a few minutes while it's really really hot. Especially the lid, as it'll have been handled and put down somewhere while you're filling the cube.

Good luck, dude. It works, have faith.


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## berapnopod (29/1/07)

OK, my post was too long I admit. I will just ask the important questions here:

Did you smell the gas in your puffed up container?

Did you smell the starter?

What did they smell like?

Berp.


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## hughman666 (30/1/07)

berapnopod said:


> OK, my post was too long I admit. I will just ask the important questions here:
> 
> Did you smell the gas in your puffed up container?
> 
> ...



the gass smelled like vegemite

the starter smells ok at this stage but it still in the fridge


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## berapnopod (30/1/07)

hughman666 said:


> the gass smelled like vegemite
> 
> the starter smells ok at this stage but it still in the fridge



Vegemite is usually the sign of yeast autolysis (dead yeast). But I am guessing some yukky smell like this is indeed an infection, just no idea how it got in there.

In which case, follow the other AHBer suggestions of getting new equipment.

Good luck!

Berp.


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## Darren (30/1/07)

Hughman,

Have you looked at the tap on your boiler? Great source of greeblies in there. Yes, heat resistant microbes can survive boiling temps. The tap never really gets to boiling.

Out of curiosity, did you use Goldings hops in your brew?

cheers

Darren


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## warrenlw63 (30/1/07)

I reckon any of you blokes who stick taps on the hot cubes are asking for an accident. Would be too easy to knock them off and burn yourselves.

I fill my cubes to the top, pull the hose out to displace the volume then fill the remaining volume with just the edge of the hose until the boiling wort overflows from the cube "just". Don't bother squeezing then (ouch hot  ) and just put the lid on and tighten like buggery. Then I clean the spilled wort off by pouring a jug of iodophor over it and cleaning down with a wet rag on the rest of the cube. Then I put it on it's side and turn it every 15 minutes to pasteurise the lot. After an hour I just stand the thing up to cool.

For those who experience a lot of break material. I run mine through a hopback on the way. Seems to filter heaps of muck and very little break when the wort cools. Even when I don't use the hopback I don't seem to get a lot. I just up my batch size slightly to compensate. I usually toss out around 3 litres of wort once it's all in the fermenters.  

Edit: Forgot to add. Once the wort is transferred to fermenters I fill the cubes with hot tap water and add 3 teaspoons of Napisan to each one. On brewday I add 5ml of Iodophor to 5 litres of water and shake the crap out of the cubes. Then sit them on their sides in the same manner as when they've got hot wort and turn them every 15 mins. This gives maximum sanitiser contact with each side. Then tip them upside down to saturate the handle and lid.

I just think you can't be too careful with unpitched wort. Even if it's carefully hot-packed.

Warren -


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## winkle (30/1/07)

Darren said:


> Hughman,
> 
> Have you looked at the tap on your boiler? Great source of greeblies in there. Yes, heat resistant microbes can survive boiling temps. The tap never really gets to boiling.
> 
> ...



Just to chime in - check both the pickup tube and tap/ball valve on the kettle, you can get a build up of gunk in the treading. Also strip the tap off the cube if you've still got it - I had recurrent infections caused by some crud inside a tap on a fermenter.


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## Midnight Brew (10/12/10)

Digging up an old thread.

Okay so Im 90% sure my cube got infected. Was a 10litre cube with a boil volume of 10 litres just planned to be an ale. It was an hour stove top boil with hop additions and reached the high 80's in temp. I had already sanitised the cube. I put the boiling wort in it and rotated the cube so all areas were covered by the hot wort. The lid was on as tight as possible. That was last week. Today I open it to pour into my fermenter and the cube has some minor swelling, smells like tomatoes!? and has a little bit of krausen at the top. 

So I know its an infection. Take a temp sample of 13C. I pour it into my fermenter and top it up to required amount and took a gravity reading. 1.050. 

So is it really infected or just in the starting process? 

I have a starter ready to pitch of US-05 and assuming the infection just began could this beer be saved?

Is it worth letting it ferment out? Would it be an ale or a lager if it began at 11-13C?

What the crap do I do? FIRST INFECTION

Cheers
Dickman


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## hsb (10/12/10)

I don't have any experience of infection (hooray for now)
but I would definitely say - Don't tip it yet! It could be drinkable!!

You probably need a bit more info for diagnosis - smell updates, what you see, readings...? It mightn't be something terminal.

Definitely definitely let it continue to ferment, and say what you see..

13C - US-05 is what I would call Ale, assuming it is staying around that temp.


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## Midnight Brew (10/12/10)

hsb said:


> I don't have any experience of infection (hooray for now)
> but I would definitely say - Don't tip it yet! It could be drinkable!!
> 
> You probably need a bit more info for diagnosis - smell updates, what you see, readings...? It mightn't be something terminal.
> ...




It smells like tomatoes, like eatible tomatoes but tainted tomatoes. OG reading was 1.050 and temp was 11-13C I think Im gonna pour the US-05 starter on and hope for the best. Worst to worst this batch cost me about $5 cause I already had all the ingredients and it was a tooheys special lager tin as the base with added malt and a little dextrose with POR.


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## bignath (10/12/10)

Why do you want to ferment it such a low temp with that yeast?

US05 is a very clean fermenting ale yeast at around 17/18/19 degrees. Will most likely just make it take longer....

Not sure if using an ale yeast at low temps causes weird flavours. obviously any yeast fermenting too hot can, but not sure if fermented too cold. 

Either way, i use this ale yeast A LOT and i always ferment it at 17-19 degrees. I personally aim for 18, but quite often set my fridge for 17 assuming the ferment will generate heat anyway...


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## Midnight Brew (10/12/10)

Big Nath said:


> Why do you want to ferment it such a low temp with that yeast?
> 
> US05 is a very clean fermenting ale yeast at around 17/18/19 degrees. Will most likely just make it take longer....
> 
> ...



The cube temp was at 11-13C not the final volume which I topped it up and brought it to 18 C and pitched, hoping to save it but see what happens.


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## FreeBaseBuzz (10/12/10)

right. Pretty sure my brew is infected.. that's what I get for being slack and hurrying.

it tastes very sour and is quite opaque. 

I'm going to toss it, but the question is, is my fermenter stuffed.. Is there a way to get it properly clean and resanitize it? I was thinking of soaking it and all my gear in a 1-10 homebrand bleach/napisan for about a month while I'm away over xmas.. 

overkill? better way? buy a new fermenter?


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## brett mccluskey (10/12/10)

FreeBaseBuzz said:


> right. Pretty sure my brew is infected.. that's what I get for being slack and hurrying.
> 
> it tastes very sour and is quite opaque.
> 
> ...


Overkill in a big way IMO Be careful of your fermenter absorbing the bleach flavour with that length of soaking  Wash/scrub/sanitise well ,you shouldn't have an issue  Smell your fermenter when it's sanitised and dry.It shold smell of NOTHiNG! If it does ,be concerned <_<


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## FreeBaseBuzz (13/12/10)

toper1 said:


> Overkill in a big way IMO Be careful of your fermenter absorbing the bleach flavour with that length of soaking  Wash/scrub/sanitise well ,you shouldn't have an issue  Smell your fermenter when it's sanitised and dry.It shold smell of NOTHiNG! If it does ,be concerned <_<



Ok, thanks for your help. I've cleaned it and have it soaking in a weaker bleach and bi-phosphate solution (I think it's bi-phosphate anyway, it was the "cleaner" that came with the initial kit I got from the LHBS), and will be emptying it and sealing it with gladwrap before I leave for a month on Friday. Hopefully that should kill any infection and keep it clean for when I get back.

I ended up bottling the batch, as it started to clear a bit, and isn't as sour. I still think I have an infection, but not as bad as I initially thought, and you never know, maybe it'll come out ok.. The opacity could just be due to having quite a bit of yeast in suspension I guess.


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## malt_shovel (13/12/10)

FreeBaseBuzz said:


> I ended up bottling the batch, as it started to clear a bit, and isn't as sour. I still think I have an infection, but not as bad as I initially thought, and you never know, maybe it'll come out ok.. The opacity could just be due to having quite a bit of yeast in suspension I guess.



If you have bottled it, and there is a chance it is infected, I would strongly recommend putting your bottles into a large closed esky/container, and somewhere isolated in case they decide to blow-up while you are away.

Infected brews can keep processing sugars and generating CO2 (and hence pressure) long past conventional brewing yeast. 

Wouldn't want you to come home to a massive stinking mess to clean up. That would suck.

Cheers
:beer:


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