# Mutual Aid in Yeast Communities



## Mardoo (27/10/15)

This article gives some pretty fascinating reflections on why yeast can suppress wild yeasts and how two or more yeasts in a pitch may interact. More thought provoking than conclusive, but fascinating.

http://phys.org/news/2015-10-social-yeast-cells-relatives-beer.html


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## Mardoo (28/10/15)

For those who geek hard here's a link to the original paper...


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## TimT (28/10/15)

When I was brewing my wild yeast cider I was fascinated with the whole process. Considering that you're able to catch a yeast from the peel of one apple - and this cider was made from the peel and flesh of *hundreds* of apples - who knows how many yeasts were in there? Not just sacchs, either - Bretts and other crazy shit. And what were they doing? My theory is - *everything*. There would have been cooperative communities of yeasts, yeasts interbreeding with other yeasts, killer yeasts going around chomping on the lot, quick starting yeasts that conked out when alcohol started hitting the medium levels, slow starting yeasts that were tolerant of high alcohol and so kept the cider going, and so on and so on and so on. Each and every one of them competing and evolving to make best use of the available food. The thing is - this cider was in some ways the best cider I've made. I'm not sure if I ever want to make cider any other way now.


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## Danwood (28/10/15)

TimT said:


> this cider was in some ways the best cider I've made


Sorry, Tim, this last bit made me do a LOL.

So, in other ways, it wasn't the best cider you've ever made ?

"60% of the time, it works every time"

(all in jest)


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## TimT (28/10/15)

Ha! I know, but people who talk in unqualified superlatives all the time usually turn out to be huge liars. "This is the best of all time!" "You are the greatest!" "This is the worst day of my life!" Blah blah blah. 

Let's put it this way - it had beautiful esters, whereas most of my ciders just end up with a slight sulfury smell (and indeed, most commercial ciders have a slight sulfur trace too - I think the yeast in those ciders isn't as healthy or well-adapted to the environment). It carbed beautifully during winter while my other ciders were sluggish. And it was drinkable almost straightaway. 

But my best *aged* cider was my first full-apple-crush cider, which turned into a beautiful wine with apple characters. I'm not sure if I'll ever find out how my wild cider ages - there's only one 330 ml bottle left!


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## MHB (28/10/15)

TimT said:


> Ha! I know, but people who talk in unqualified superlatives all the time usually turn out to be huge liars. "This is the best of all time!" "You are the greatest!" "This is the worst day of my life!" Blah blah blah.
> 
> Let's put it this way - it had beautiful esters, whereas most of my ciders just end up with a slight sulfury smell (and indeed, most commercial ciders have a slight sulfur trace too - I think the yeast in those ciders isn't as healthy or well-adapted to the environment). It carbed beautifully during winter while my other ciders were sluggish. And it was drinkable almost straightaway.
> 
> But my best *aged* cider was my first full-apple-crush cider, which turned into a beautiful wine with apple characters. I'm not sure if I'll ever find out how my wild cider ages - there's only one 330 ml bottle left!


No Tim, its because pressed apple juice is full of all sorts of unpredictable wild yeast and bugs - so commercial cider makers add a heap of SO4 to supress them and then use a SO2 tolerant yeast that they know and can predict its behaviour.
Mark

Oh and a predator yeast? do they have a theme tune like Jaws, little fins and all - really!


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## TimT (28/10/15)

_Oh and a predator yeast? do they have a theme tune like Jaws, little fins and all - really!_

Depends how much money they've got, John Williams charges high fees.


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## hirschb (31/10/15)

I'd encourage you to age a few bottles of any cider with wild yeast. Brett is going to change the flavor of the cider over time. See the tasting notes on some cool brett/cider experiments here: http://www.funkfactorygeuzeria.com/2013/06/cider-fermentation-panel-bottling.html


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## TimT (31/10/15)

Next year!


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## TimT (31/10/15)

I hadn't thought of that actually. All cider gets better with age - the way it ages could be another point in wild cider's favour.


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