# Tips for making a dry complex cider



## pat_00 (18/9/13)

I've searched and read a lot on here about cider, but I'm looking for some more specific info. Sorry if I'm asking a common question.

I had an amazing cider in tassie last year (wilmot hills). Website says is made out of 'traditional cider apple' varieties: Yarlington Mill, Improved Foxwhelp, Bulmer's Norman, Sweet Coppin.

I imagine these apples are not easy to come by?

I'm planning to try and replicate this style of cider. The flavours were so complex compared to everything else I've had. It had an almost savoury edge to it, really dry but not too acidic. It was very lightly carbed, almost flat.

Does anyone have any tips?


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## Airgead (18/9/13)

Yep. Unfortunately its - find a supplier of cider apples.

You can tweak regular desert apples with some extra bits and bobs but its not the same. Cider apples are either bittersweet or bittersharp. You need a mix of both. Regular apples are either sweet or sharp. You don't get the bitter bit.

That bitter is tannin so you can replicate it by adding a little grape tannin. You can also add a little malic acid if all you have access to are sweet apples.

My regular cider is 80% Sweet (this year it was pink lady - also known as Crips Pink) and 20% sharp (Granny Smith). I adjust acid by varying the percentage of grannies.

Age plays a big part as well. the longer you age, the more complex the flavours will get. Yeast can play a part as well. Particularly French ciders often have some funky farmhouse characters from the yeast.

But there really is no substitute for real cider apples.

Cheers
Dave


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## manticle (18/9/13)

Malic and tannic acid as Dave suggests. Pour a pint of the fermented cider and add bit by bit till it's roughly how you want it then dose the whole batch and let is sit for a few days (or more - bulk conditioning cider is nifty).

Crab apples are used by some folk.

Very easy to get dry and lightly carbed with home made stuff.


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## pat_00 (18/9/13)

Thanks for the suggestions.

Any clues where would I find Crab apples? I don't think I've ever seen them for sale in Oz.

I did find a recipe that suggests 10-20% Crab apples is a good amount for the tannins.

Also, I have found other recipes that say not to use commercial yeast, just go with what's on the apples. Providing they aren't sprayed of course. Anyone tried that?


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## manticle (18/9/13)

As far as I am aware, most cideries that use natural fermentation have environmental microflora that have specific desirable characters. using wild yeasts on apple skins is likely to be much more variable.

That's not to say don't try it - you might make something delicioous. Certainly commercial ciders made that way have a lot more character to my palate.
I have tried reculturing from some of these commercials but the flavour balance in small batches is so far all over the place.

We had a crab apple tree when I was a kid - only source of them that I know is grow your own (or know a grower).

Malic and tannic acid are easily available though - any HB shop that deals with winemaking should have some.


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## Airgead (18/9/13)

You can't buy crab apples commercially anywhere. I have a tree and the orchardist I get my apples from also grows crabs (most do BTW - they are used as a pollination source for non self fertile apples) which he lets me take. They are classed as bittersharp so will provide tanin and acid. They vary a lot but i find 5% of my home grown crabs is enough. 

Wild yeast is very hit and miss (mostly miss) until you build up a beneficial microflora in the brewery. Without that source of beneficial yeast its a crap shoot as to what will take hold.

For me, its the tannin rather than the acids that make the most difference. The acids will really help if you don't use any sharps in the batch or if you are using bought juice (which is usually all sweet). If you use sharps or have the acid balance right through other means then tannin is the thing you will be missing.

Cheers
Dave


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## JDW81 (18/9/13)

pat_00 said:


> Any clues where would I find Crab apples? I don't think I've ever seen them for sale in Oz.
> 
> I did find a recipe that suggests 10-20% Crab apples is a good amount for the tannins.


Best bet is to have a wander round your local area and see if anyone has a crab apple tree planted, then ask if they mind if you pick some. I have a crab apple tree, but it has only been in for 6 months so won't be getting a decent harvest of apples for a while.

JD


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## RelaxedBrewer (18/9/13)

pat_00 said:


> Also, I have found other recipes that say not to use commercial yeast, just go with what's on the apples. Providing they aren't sprayed of course. Anyone tried that?


I have tried it once. I am pretty sure that it was a failed experiment. 1 years later and it is still almost undrinkable.


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## Not For Horses (18/9/13)

I make a really good dry cider using 50/50 granny smith and jonagold and S-04 for the yeast. No added water, no added sugar just apple juice and yeast.
I took some of the last batch in to a mate who has a cidery and he really liked it. Kept asking me how I made it and would I mind if he copied!
The Grannys give it a nice crisp acidic bite which I quite like.
He said if you wanted to cut back on the acidity to add some gum arabic to the ferment. I can't remember the percentage but I'll ask him next time I see him and post back.


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## Airgead (18/9/13)

No cider needs water or sugar. Just juice and yeast (and maybe some acid etc depending on what juice you use).

Cheers
Dave


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## bradmccoy (18/9/13)

This post has some tips about achieving a more complex taste if you can't get your hands on the right apples:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/72201-how-to-get-started-in-cider-the-definitiveish-guide-to-beginner


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## pat_00 (19/9/13)

That thread has some great tips.

Maybe I'll give it a try with a lambic or saison yeast blend to get some other microbes in there.

Might be a little more reliable than crossing my fingers and hoping.


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## Deep End (25/9/13)

I'll share my secret link to cider and crab apples for sale. http://www.woodbridgefruittrees.com.au/woodbridgefruittrees/3-cider-apples Have a look on there, all the cider apples, apples, crabs etc you could want and they ship everywhere.


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## Deep End (25/9/13)

Ordering time is over as its seasonal, but there's always next season.


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## Mardoo (25/9/13)

Deep End said:


> I'll share my secret link to cider and crab apples for sale. http://www.woodbridgefruittrees.com.au/woodbridgefruittrees/3-cider-apples Have a look on there, all the cider apples, apples, crabs etc you could want and they ship everywhere.


Holy crap Deep End! Thanks for that. I might just give cider another go with them apples available.


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## Airgead (26/9/13)

Ahh yes. I have looked at them before. Unfortunately I don't live in the right area for most of those varieties. Most traditional cider apples are of the type that need cold weather to produce fruit. I can grow warm apples but not the cold ones. I have partnered up with an orchardist in bilpin who gives me his seconds and is looking at putting in a few roes of cider trees...

Cheers
Dave


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## pat_00 (26/9/13)

Nice. Unfortunately I don't have the space to plant a few trees.


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## Ferg (26/9/13)

Deep End said:


> I'll share my secret link to cider and crab apples for sale. http://www.woodbridgefruittrees.com.au/woodbridgefruittrees/3-cider-apples Have a look on there, all the cider apples, apples, crabs etc you could want and they ship everywhere.


 Do these guys sell the actual apples or just the trees?


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## Airgead (26/9/13)

Just the trees.


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## Ferg (26/9/13)

Yeah I figured. Does anyone know where you can get cider apples? I have my trees already planted but they are a few years off...


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