# Wheat Flour



## Bribie G (25/7/10)

I'm brewing a Coopers style Australian Sparkling Ale for a forthcoming comp. Most recipes call for a small wheat addition, and rather than wheat malt I have used Semolina in the past to good effect, used exactly like polenta with a short boil to a mushy porridge. However the latest attempt has produced a haze and I reckon that Semolina is probably not all starch but must have some proteins etc that don't get digested in the mash. EDIT: and that while some work well, other batches from various manufacturers could be hit or miss. 

Last year a guy who posts irregularly and claims to be a former employee of Coopers said that they historically used a bit of just good old plain flour in the mash. Makes sense as UK brewers did this extensively during the 20th century. You can't put too much in as it gums up the sparge horribly, AFAIK, but for BIAB that's not such a serious concern, so I'm going to try it out.

< as you all know nothing in my pantry is sacred if it can be turned into C2H5OH - polenta, cornflakes, oatmeal, rice, semolina, sardines........ :icon_cheers: >

Now, has anyone done this and should I just mix the flour into the grain bill before dough in, or gently cook the flour to a runny "wallpaper paste" consistency? I guess that as with all adjuncts a bit of gelatinisation is required?


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## bradsbrew (25/7/10)

C'mon Michael, dont be puttin flour in an aussie sparkling. Although if you would like to put some wheat grain thats been turned into flour into an aussie sparkling ; my mill, wheat grain and time is readily available. Much like milling simpsons golden oats to a flour for a ........../

Cheers Brad


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## manticle (25/7/10)

Can't imagine wheat flour will be any less likely to give you starch haze than polenta will. I also can't imagine it will be the same as wheat malt.

I have heard of people adding wheat flour to hefeweizens to make them cloudy for competitions - seems counterintuitive to me as the cloudiness is caused by the yeast but whatever makes your beer happy.


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## Bribie G (25/7/10)

I doubt if the haze is starch, as it would have been eaten by the BB ale malt - more likely some horrid wheat protein - maybe the gluten. I was more interested in the gelatinisation of the flour. Actually I could use weeties ..... :icon_cheers:


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## Fatgodzilla (25/7/10)

manticle said:


> Can't imagine wheat flour will be any less likely to give you starch haze than polenta will. I also can't imagine it will be the same as wheat malt.
> 
> I have heard of people adding wheat flour to hefeweizens to make them cloudy for competitions - seems counterintuitive to me as the cloudiness is caused by the yeast but whatever makes your beer happy.




The great man Mr Sanders (don't mention chinese hops) - still regarded by "old timers" as one of the great homebrewers in Aussie history, anyway he was a great advocate of wheat flour in brews. I did it early in some beers without any haze problems. Haven't used it recently as I have wheat grain. Suggest if you need further, search the old craftbrewer radio shows archives (where I did find it yonks ago). Memory (and lets face it, my (all) crushes have some level of flour anyway) says no need for anything other than a straight addition. Vorlauf heaps if you must. As a BIABer M, if it looks cloudy, strain again!


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## manticle (25/7/10)

As far as could tell Old GLS was/is full of knowledge on everything HB/CB related.

Just a pity he was/is a bit of an arrogant cocknocker in personal communications but I'd never question his level of expertise (in brewing, not in English).

I remember a year or so ago when I was researching an extract tsingtsao clone and I whacked some rice flour in, people told me I'd get haze and potential infection. Definitely got haze - infection free though.

Having not actually tried it with wheat flour, I probably shouldn't have commented at all. Forgetting haze potential what does the flour actually bring to the brew (ie why did GLS actually recommend it?)


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (25/7/10)

FWIW, I regularly add 100gms of wheat flour to the mash to help with head retention. It's too small an amount to cause haze issues and it does work.


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## Bribie G (25/7/10)

Wheat = head retention and foaming etc - makes the beer more 'sticky'. I'm looking for these properties without the sometimes sharp twang I have got from using wheat malt.


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## winkle (25/7/10)

I used wheat flour in a wit since I was out of flaked wheat, seemed to work fine.


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## Bribie G (25/7/10)

winkle said:


> I used wheat flour in a wit since I was out of flaked wheat, seemed to work fine.



Yes Winkle, you've latched onto what I'm talking about. The flaked wheat would have been gelatinised during steaming and pressing, as are cornflakes, flaked maize, flaked rice etc. 
Flour is not gelatinised, but I take it that it got mashed out ok just adding 'raw' without boiling to a mush first?


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## Screwtop (25/7/10)

Pretty sure Semolina is made from the endosperm of the wheat kernel so would be high in protien, not the sort of thing I'd be adding to my beer. Have used flour previously and always use Spelt flour in my Klsch, without a problem. For Wits have mixed some flour with water to make a paste and added this to the boil for 15 min for a good cloudy Witbier.

Screwy


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## dr K (25/7/10)

> Yes Winkle, you've latched onto what I'm talking about. The flaked wheat would have been gelatinised during steaming and pressing, as are cornflakes, flaked maize, flaked rice etc.
> Flour is not gelatinised, but I take it that it got mashed out ok just adding 'raw' without boiling to a mush first?


Nor is malted barley.
As you know, the starches in grain, be that rice, corn, raw barley, malted barley, wheat or malted wheat need to be gelatinized before the enzymes (in our case most likely from amalyse from malted barley) convert the starches to sugars.
Flour, whether from wheat or the malt you just cracked must be gelatinised before the conversion from starch to sugar ocours, happily wheat and barley starches will gelatinize within the normal mashing temp regime.

K


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## Bribie G (25/7/10)

Thanks doc, yes I was forgetting that flour from cracked malt is basically in the same condition and doesn't get converted till the enzymes get to work :icon_cheers:


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## manticle (25/7/10)

All interesting to know.

Cheers


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## Nick JD (25/7/10)

BribieG said:


> Thanks doc, yes I was forgetting that flour from cracked malt is basically in the same condition and doesn't get converted till the enzymes get to work :icon_cheers:



Which begs the question ... why can't we add rice flour?


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## Bribie G (25/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> Which begs the question ... why can't we add rice flour?



Well if you can get it cheap enough, or grind rice yourself. Definitely on the todo list :icon_cheers:


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## NickB (25/7/10)

I would have thought you'd still need to gelatinise the flour as you would normal white rice? Might be wrong though (has been known to happen on rare occasions h34r

Personally I would have thought that unless you're getting your rice flour for basically free, el cheapo white rice from ALDI or any other 'home' brand would be cheaper. Shouldn't gunk up your mash either as flour very well may.

Cheers

EDIT: Beat ya, Felten


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## felten (25/7/10)

You probably could use rice flour if you gelatinised it beforehand, going off http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...arch_Conversion rice has a high gelatinisation point. BSP talks about adding flours and such as adjuncts too.

"Mash tun adjuncts fall into three classes, those that can be mixed into the grist without pre-cooking, such as wheat flours, those that are pre-cooked before mashing begins (e.g. flaked maize, torrefied wheat) and those that are cooked in the brewery as part of the mashing programme, such as maize-, rice- and sorghum-grits"

from brewing science and practice

edit: damn you NickB!


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## seemax (25/7/10)

I made a Hefe some time ago and used 500g of Aldi Weetbix straight in the mash... it got sticky but sparged ok. End result was a tasty brew.


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## under (26/7/10)

You trying to make a cake? Next thing you will be putting beers in the oven at 180 for 60min.


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## Nick JD (26/7/10)

What's the starch chemistry that makes wheat starch okay in a mash and rice starch not? 

Or are we simply talking about particle size?

Does the finely-milled flour make it small enough to gelatenise at mash temperatures, yet the rice _grain _is too big?

Or, is the starch in rice "stronger", or longer? 

What I'm really getting at is are we comparing whole rice to ground wheat and that's the difference? 

Rice flour is cheap - and I freakin' hate having to cook the rice for brewing because I'm the laziest brewer ... in the world.


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## RobB (26/7/10)

Just to throw another variable in to the mix, which kind of wheat flour would be best for a mash?

Bread flour has much more protein than plain flour. If it's for head retention, would high protein bread flour be better?


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## gregs (26/7/10)

BribieG said:


> Thanks doc, yes I was forgetting that flour from cracked malt is basically in the same condition and doesn't get converted till the enzymes get to work :icon_cheers:




This is an interesting subject; the flower in your crush has already had part of the conversion done for you, re- the malting process.

So the question is are you after any conversion? Has the wheat flour had any of this conversion or is it just a dried kernel. If so is the mash time and temp youre using appropriate for your required outcome?

Cheers.gregs


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## felten (26/7/10)

Nick JD said:


> What's the starch chemistry that makes wheat starch okay in a mash and rice starch not?
> 
> Or are we simply talking about particle size?
> 
> ...



I would imagine that its a difference in their structural and chemical make up of the starches themselves (amylose content), rather than with the particle size. But a smaller particle size can help with increased water up take.

"Flours are produced, as by-products, during the manufacture of maize, rice and sorghum grits. Like the grits these flours must be cooked before being mixed in with the malt mash." from BSP

There is a lot of other info out there but I don't want to cut and past a bunch of it, so it says they must be cooked, but I can't find a detailed chemical description of why, but I would take them at their word.


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## Bribie G (26/7/10)

Anyway I've gone and done it today, with 200g raw in the Aussie Ale. Let's see if I get a haze this time :icon_cheers: 

Linky


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## mje1980 (26/7/10)

BribieG said:


> Anyway I've gone and done it today, with 200g raw in the Aussie Ale. Let's see if I get a haze this time :icon_cheers:
> 
> Linky



I used 500g in a wit last year. Hit my OG spot on. was hazy


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