# Williamswarn Brewery Operation and Explanation



## Beerisyummy (15/2/14)

Hey Wobbly,


Can you give us any information on the pressure control setup on the WW?
I'm interested in what sort of regulator is used and how it's setup.

Post edited by Moderator


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## wobbly (15/2/14)

Beerisyummy

Glad to provide you with information requested.

The circuit is dead simple and can best be described as a manual set up. The guts of the system is the spudding valve which is a basic an adjustable spring loaded relief valve. As you screw the top down you put more pressure on the spring which in turn holds the piston/plunger onto the seat. As pressure builds up so the piston moves off the seat and releases CO2

I have tried to replicate the CO2 circuit in the attached Excel drawing

Temperature control is via an adjustable Omron temperature controller

All the settings are manual there is no fancy control system/program linking it all together

Trust this is all clear to you. If not let me know and I will have another attempt

Cheers

Wobbly 

View attachment WW Flow Chart.xlsx


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## wobbly (15/2/14)

Beerisyummy

Thinking about it the above may not have addressed the question you asked

When the WW is next empty (week or two) I will pull the spudding valve apart and see if there are any manufacturer details and/or sketch the internals or photograph the removable bits and post so that you can get a better idea of how it works

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Beerisyummy (16/2/14)

wobbly said:


> Beerisyummy
> 
> Thinking about it the above may not have addressed the question you asked
> 
> ...


Thanks Wobbly. That all makes perfect sense.
Pictures of the internals would be great.

I was interested in the valves used because I've been doing a bit of my own experimenting with pressure fermenting. So far I've found that the poor old spunding valve takes a beating with all the venting gases. Never mind the potential for krausen and hop debris. It would be great to see how the WW is set up to deal with these problems.

I guess if you post photos of the internals( and any manufacturer details) it will dispel the hint of "affiliation" people have previously mentioned. I'm not saying you're affiliated as you've stated you aren't but, posting that sort of thing should drive the point home.

PS. Dip your toes into lager territory Wobbly and throw a damned power meter on that thing.


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## Yob (16/2/14)

How about some photo's of a typical run through... 

Items with photo's always sell faster here


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## wobbly (16/2/14)

_How about some photo's of a typical run through_...

Not sure what photos you would be after detailing a "Typical Run Through" as there is basically nothing to see that isn't covered in the user manual. If you haven't seen/read it the attached link will take you to it. The manual is 5.3 mb so too large to attach. The only thing different that I do is instead of using a "kit" I am using fresh wort and dried yeast otherwise the process is the same from start to finish. Now that I have a few brews under the belt I will investigate/try using liquid yeast as I'm sure they will not be an issue and I doubt that it will be necessary to make a starter for most other than maybe lagers or pilsners. Ian Williams has commented in an interview back in 2012 that there is nothing to prevent you from using specialty yeasts and or fermenting colder than his standard 15C for lagers/pilsners and comments that if you want to ferment at 12C it will take a few more days to reach terminal gravity so adjust your schedule accordingly

http://www.williamswarn.com/The-WilliamsWarn/pod-files/WWGen2Manualv22Web.pdf

_Then we can copy his design and get the chinese to knock out a cheap version...._

My LHBS has already investigated this and found that it is not easy to get all the necessary approvals to import gassed refrigeration equipment into Australia from China. He also looked into the possibility of importing minus the refrigeration unit and retro fitting that in Australia but there were a number of issue with that option that didn't make it worthwhile so it has been shelved for now.
_Items with photo's always sell faster here _

As and when time permits I will take a few photos of the various stuff behind the side/rear panel if that's what you want to see - not that there is much to see.

Glycol tank
Danfos refrigeration unit
John Gest piping and fittings
Insulation
I won't be pulling anything apart to photograph inner workings though

The issue I am seeing with the amount of break material is most likely because the WW system is basically designed for use with "kits" where the extract would have been centrifuged prior to vacuum reduction and hence most/all of the break material removed where as my basic method of break material removal (whirlpool and settle) would be a far cry from what centrifuging would achieve

I don't believe I am seeing any more or less break material out of the Braumeister than I was seeing in the plastic FV which was around a centimetre or so on the bottom mixed up with the settled yeast at the end of the fermentation phase. It's just more than can be collected/accommodated in the 900ml sediment bottle along with the chill haze material that is also dropped out of suspension. 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Beerisyummy (16/2/14)

Can you please pull the PRV apart and take some photos. Time permitting of course.
It's covered in the instruction manual so it's not a warranty breaker.

Cheers.

Edit: Also, is the gauge an oil filled type? Which brand?


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## wobbly (16/2/14)

Parks re your comment

_I would like to know if you felt it had no esters or it simply lacked the yeast character normally produced in alternative fermentations_.

Obviously I didn't make myself as clear or as objective as I should have. My comment was in reference to the yeasty "flavour" I use to get with beers that I bottled or those that were fermented at basically an uncontrolled fermentation temperature before I started fermenting in a refrigerator with some degree of control over the temperature it fermented at

If in the past I allowed a beer to ferment at 23C you could taste the quite significant difference between that beer and one fermented at 18C. My taste buds may not be all that good but I can say without hesitation these beers fermented in the WW at 23C to me taste no different to what I was getting fermenting at 18C

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly (16/2/14)

_Can you please pull the PRV apart and take some photos. Time permitting of course_

Don't have a problem with that my comment is basically about not disassembling any of the machinery

The pressure gauge has the following markings and doesn't appear to be oil filled

Nuova
FIMA
EN 837 - 1
1 - 4 bar

Cheers

Woibbly


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## Beerisyummy (16/2/14)

wobbly said:


> _Can you please pull the PRV apart and take some photos. Time permitting of course_
> 
> Don't have a problem with that my comment is basically about not disassembling any of the machinery
> 
> ...


Thanks Wobbly!
I'm not stressed about much else in the unit other than the PRV. It looks like a slightly different variation to the common ones available and I'm a sucker for new ideas.

It would be great to know how much juice the unit uses under normal use. If you do have a power meter plug that would be some useful info.

I totally agree with your comment about the beer fermented under pressure being "cleaner" than normal. 2.9 simple lagers into pressure fermenting and I'm getting very similar results to your ales.
The first one I tried was done similar to the WW instruction manual (by accident), the second was done at 25c and the third was done at 10c for 4 days before being allowed to heat up.
The first one was OK, but was getting better as it aged. No surprises there apart from how quick and clean it fermented compared to my usual tub routine.
The second one was way too funky for a lager, but it was not anything like the lawn fertiliser that comes out of a normal FV at that temp.
The third batch is just crash cooling now to clarify and the sample is the cleanest tasting lager I've managed to date. That's with some yeast still in suspension.

Heck, all the literature points to this being a useful control measure, so why not do it if you can?
20 odd litres at a time would give me the shits, but I'd love a system as neat as yours. Keep the reports coming mate.


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## wobbly (17/2/14)

I have started this new topic thread in an attempt to have the discussion deal with experiences and suggestions associated with both the WW machine, the process and possible benefits/disadvantages/limitations of fermenting under pressure at higher temperature etc.

I hope those that post in this thread will add to the knowledge base on this method of fermentation rather than seeking to bag a particular piece of equipment

If the moderators consider some of the later comments in the other thread are relevant to this redirection maybe they could arrange to move them over such that those interested will be able to see/read all the relevant subject material

I hope this will turn out to be a useful thread where ideas and results will be posted

Cheers

Wobbly


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## gordo_t (17/2/14)

Hey Wobbly,

How much pressure are you applying to the wort straight after adding your yeast, or are you just setting the relief valve and letting it build up?

What's your pressure/time/temp schedule so far for your Ales?


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## DJ_L3ThAL (17/2/14)

Some good current info on pressurized fermentation including current experiments under way here http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/75447-pressurized-fermentation/ that is a good reference for discussion here.


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## wobbly (17/2/14)

G_T_G

Answers below and bear in mind that this is based on my experience to date (4 brews only with the WW) and is in general lines with the WW user instruction manual. With time and experience this might change 

I apply about 0.5 bar after adding wort just to check that the lid has sealed properly and the system will hold pressured
Then release all CO2 pressure back to zero and then let pressure build up with fermentation
I then initial set the relief valve to about 1.5 bar equivalent after pitching yeast as experience has shown me how far to screw PRV down to get close to this value 
Once fermentation starts and pressure builds up I trim the PRV as required. 
With 23lt of 1040 OG wort and pitched with 1 packet (11gms) US-05 rehydrated yeast and temperature set at 22C pressure will generally build up to the 1.5 bar within about 18 hours.
Brew is left to ferment at the 1.5 bar and 22C for 4 days by which time it has generally reached terminal gravity of around 1010/12
Brew is then cold crashed to 2C (still at 1.5 bar pressure) for 12 hours to drop yeast into sediment bottle
Sediment bottle emptied and clarification liquid added and system left for 24 hours (still at 1.5 bar pressure)
Second clarification added after 24 hours and left for 24 to 36 hours (still at 1.5 bar pressure)
Cycle is complete and beer is carbonated and ready to consume/bottle/keg what ever you do.
There is no need/reason to allow the fresh beer to "condition for a number of days/weeks with the Ales I have brewed to date
I am yet to brew a pilsner but doubt that the process will be much different other than fermenting at 15C for three days followed by a 3 day diacetal rest before chill for yeast drop etc.
Trust this answers your questions

Cheers

Wobbly


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## dicko (17/2/14)

wobbly said:


> I have started this new topic thread in an attempt to have the discussion deal with experiences and suggestions associated with both the WW machine, the process and possible benefits/disadvantages/limitations of fermenting under pressure at higher temperature etc.
> 
> I hope those that post in this thread will add to the knowledge base on this method of fermentation rather than seeking to bag a particular piece of equipment
> 
> ...


I have moved the relevant threads from the other topic.
Unfortunately the posts are a bit out of order but they do appear to read OK.

Well done Wobbly, the info will be a lot easier to follow now.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (17/2/14)

Are you aerating the wort before chucking it in the WW or just chilling and transferring?


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## roger mellie (17/2/14)

wobbly said:


> G_T_G
> 
> Answers below and bear in mind that this is based on my experience to date (4 brews only with the WW) and is in general lines with the WW user instruction manual. With time and experience this might change
> 
> ...


Wobbly

Will be doing a Pils tomorrow and will try and take pictures to detail the whole mad science experiment.

Cheers

RM


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## wobbly (17/2/14)

Roger Mellie posted in the "other thread" that one limitation on the WW could be the ability to brew Lambics or High Gravity Beers

The following is an e-mail I received from a long time fellow WW owner who lives in McLaren Vale South Australia on how he "tweaked" the system to be able brew high gravity beers. I cannot claim any knowledge good or bad about what he does but it just shows you that with some thought a lot of things may be possible

Quote
_"Belgians are easy, it all depends on how high you want to go in the alcohol stakes.

The WW is easy to drive, just a few simple modifications that aren’t the normal.

1st make a 2 litre starter, to that add a smack pack of Wyeast 3711 Saison yeast, and if you intend to go past the 8.5% ABV, it will go higher, but let’s err on the side of caution, we don’t want autolysis, we want the yeast to attenuate, so it can be removed. _

_Have a pkt of Champagne yeast ready. You now have an empty sediment bottle.You shove that in to the WW in the normal way through the sediment bottle, when you observe no more decrease in the S.G.

When you add the champagne yeast this will take you up to 25%ABV if you have enough goodies in the malt stakes to get there. Also make sure you have added 750g of white sugar, this will give you the sourness and dryness._
_Next follow your recipe for the malts and hops, or do want one of mine. Fill to the 23Litre mark. You can safely put 26 litres in the WW. I do it all the time, that way you have 23 litres left after clarification etc. when you have to dump. I compensate with an extra 500g LDME.

Oxygenate the wert, take a S.G. reading.

Pitch your yeast and all of the starter into the WW. Screw the lid on, you can’t use the sediment bottle for this addition. Set the VRVP for 2.5BAR. Monitor this fairly closely as it can move up fairly quickly in the first 24 hours.

Set the temperature at 18Deg. Usually 24 hours. When Krausen is good and active and quite solid, go to 20Deg, hold for 2 days, then 28Deg.

Now turn off your WW when it has been sitting for 2 days at 28Deg. From now on it’s a conical fermenter with damb good insulation. Do not undo the lid. You need all the pressure to make the grade.

Now the only way you can monitor your brew is through the use of the font tap, pull off 100mls, measure temperature, this can go up fairly quickly, my last got to 38deg. The 3711 can handle this temperature, it sure puts funk in the brew. You can also monitor the S.G.

I can get my ferments from SG 1.120 to 1.008 quite comfortably, I had one go down to 1.002, shit it was dry."_

Trust this is grist to the mill for some/anyone who is considering a unit and would want to make big Belgian beers

Cheers

Wobbly


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## mooncat (20/2/14)

Hi all I think I may be at risk of breaking forum etiquette as I have posted on the other thread before realising this one was open. Anyway at the risk of repetition I am looking at different ways of dry hopping and wondered what the merits or risks would be in sterilising a cafetiere and making a hoptea at 80 degrees, cooling to approx 23 degrees and adding to the brewerey after three days when the ferment is calming and topping up with foam as per clarification process


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## wobbly (20/2/14)

Hi Mooncat

I posed a similar question to Ian Williams a few weeks back as follows:-

_If I wanted to “Late hop” post most of the fermentation phase/stage (as I understand that the yeast will strip a lot of the aroma out of the beer during fermentation) so as to increase the “aroma” in the beer how could I do this?_


_Add some hops (Pellets or Flowers) to the sediment bottle after clarification_
_Make a “Hop Tea” and add this to the finished beer through the clarification port_


And his response was

_Before you clarify, take the yeast off as normal and put say 50g of hops in the sediment bottle. Add ½ way with boiling water and dissolve. Top up with beer foam as during clarification. Put the sediment bottle back on. Open the tank valve in a way that minimises turbulence to the hops. In short bursts. Open close. Then when full open fully leave 5 days then take off and clarify as normal._

_Or do it after clarification. And leave it as you drink. Get stronger as the days go by and you’re drinking a few inches from above the hops.

The impt thing is to avoid hops going up the tap as it can block the tap. So only pour a beer once settled and maybe blow CO2 back the line for 2 seconds by a fake clarification with no agent.

It pretty much settles as green hops at the bottom of the sediment bottle and infuses flavour upwards_.

I'm not convinced that you couldn't blow a "hop tea"| made in a French press into the chamber through the clarification port. It would just take a few shots to pass the anything more than about 50mm of liquid. If you did this you would need to leave it for a few days and then clarify to remove any/all the fine hop residue.

If/when you have a question send Ian an email he is very willing to answer and I have found him to be very helpful

There is an e-mail address on the web page and if that doesn't work for you send me a PM and I will forward you the e-mail contact details I have

Cheers

Wobbly


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## roger mellie (20/2/14)

The mad science experiment has begun.

Simple Pils - nothing out of the ordinary - brew day was as usual - with the BM - pretty uneventful

95% Pils
2% Hell
2% Wheat
1% Acid

Mashed at 65

OG 1.056

Yeast 34/70

Fermented at 15
A couple of shots of the day

The beast in my shed





Got to love the wort clarity




Blichmann Hopback with 50gms of Nelson and Riwaka








Rehydrate Yeast - for about 15 mins prior to connecting to the bottom of the conical




Just after opening the dump valve to introduce the wort to the rehydrated yeast - this was done with the temperature at ~ 20 DegC and the temperature controller set to 15 DegC




T= about 30 mins after opening dump valve 




T=1 Day - CO2 production has begun but little impact on the Pressure Gauge - little bit of movement in the sediment trap




T= 2 Days - a lot of rolling on the sediment trap - but definite stratification with a layer of clear beer between the dead stuff on the bottom (not moving) and the yeast above (rolling heaps)




Pressure in Fermenter is now 1.4BarG the backpressure valve is wound out to maintain this pressure (approx) - actually aiming for 1.5 BarG so increasing slowly




A couple of things I have noticed

1. There is much less Krausen evident. Disconcertingly so - there is a volcano at the bottom of the fermenter and the top has a layer of foam - but little or no 'lift' - I assume this is a product of the pressure in the fermenter. Could be good news for 1.075 IIPA's
2. Taking a sample is easy - but it comes out as foam and you have to let it gas off before you can test the SG

Refractometer has dropped to about 11

Will post some more when I start to chill and clarify the beer.

Cheers

RM


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## mooncat (21/2/14)

Thanks for the reply. I did as you suggested and emailed Ian and got an immediate reply. This is what he suggested. 

2 Minute Hop Boil to add lots of hop aroma (e.g. American Pale Ales). 
For simplicity take 50g of hops and do the coffee plunger technique as described in the manual and shown on the instructional video. Rinse twice as described in the manual. 
To add a lot of hops aroma like in APA, what we’ve found however that what works slightly better is (see attached photo)
Simmer the 150g of aroma hops in 2L of water for 2 minutes. Stir to break up the hops. We use a portable induction cooker and pot. 
Take off boil and add 2 litres of cold water to the pot to reduce temp to stop any further bitterness formation which is minimal is only 2 minutes. 
Strain the 4L with hops through the funnel supplied into a second pot. The idea is to avoid hop particles getting into the tank to block the beer tap. 
Rinse the hops residue remaining on the sieve with 2 litres cold water to get more flavours rinsed in the 2nd pot. 
Add the 6L as part of the brew water before you top up to 23L in the brewery. 

I’d suggest you do the 2 minute boil method with 75-150g. 50g is for coffee plunger as any more becomes a bit harder to plunge.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (21/2/14)

Just curious does fermenting under pressure remove a lot of hop aroma, or does it preserve more aroma, has anyone tested this I'd be interested in the results as I am about to build some conicals out of 50L kegs and been thinking about pressure fermenting in them?


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## Parks (21/2/14)

rehabs_for_quitters said:


> Just curious does fermenting under pressure remove a lot of hop aroma, or does it preserve more aroma, has anyone tested this I'd be interested in the results as I am about to build some conicals out of 50L kegs and been thinking about pressure fermenting in them?


Logically it would preserve it as far less CO2 leaves the fermenter. Whether this is the case in practise, I don't know.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (21/2/14)

I was thinking ablng those lines as well but the talk of 150g of aroma hops in a 23 L brew made me wonder that was all


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## Parks (21/2/14)

rehabs_for_quitters said:


> I was thinking ablng those lines as well but the talk of 150g of aroma hops in a 23 L brew made me wonder that was all


I'm guessing part of that issue is contact time and the fact it's soaking in water, unlike traditional dry hopping where you put the hops directly in your beer for 2+ days.


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## wobbly (21/2/14)

Re Hop Aroma

I am still early into my experiences and the second brew I did I used two packets of "6 months out of date" US-05 and that ferment was over and done with in under two days and didn't have a lot of "hop aroma" there was some flavour and about the right level of bitterness so I made some "hop tea" in a French Press, depressurised the WW, took the top of the WW and tipped it in, replaced the lid and reapplied CO2 pressure

I wasn't too worried about exposing the fermented beer to oxygen as my view was that there would still be a CO2 blanket over the beer

It was fine drinking with good flavour and aroma 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## rehabs_for_quitters (21/2/14)

Keep up posts about aroma as it's all good info,

2 days man thats flying, so fermenting under pressure is definately faster then, is it common across all brews or just that yeast, and how long did it take to clear?


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## mckenry (21/2/14)

Is this the brewery / serving in one, that turns a brew out in 7 days, but you have to wait until that's been drunk before you can brew another batch?


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## roger mellie (21/2/14)

mckenry said:


> Is this the brewery / serving in one, that turns a brew out in 7 days, but you have to wait until that's been drunk before you can brew another batch?


There is a nifty little connection on the back of the font that allows you to connect up a piece of 8mm beer line to a QD




So once the ferment is done and clarified - hook up a pressurised keg to the beer line and lift the relief valve a couple of times until it flows. This continues the anaerobic aspect of the process - as long as your keg is purged well.

Then you are good to again.

RM

Editicture added

The font tower is actually a single piece of some sort of polycarbonate so the beer tap and the kegging/sample port at the back share the line from the bottom of the vessel. The port at the bottom is connected to the CO2 line in (primarily for the counter pressure filler I believe)


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## mckenry (21/2/14)

roger mellie said:


> There is a nifty little connection on the back of the font that allows you to connect up a piece of 8mm beer line to a QD
> 
> So once the ferment is done and clarified - hook up a pressurised keg to the beer line and lift the relief valve a couple of times until it flows.
> 
> ...


Cool - Sorry for my lack of understanding. Is the beer going into the keg carbonated already? I assume the WW carbonates the beer as it is a service point too right? If so, do you then (keep the beer cold elsewhere?) then reconnect to serve it using the WW?


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## wobbly (21/2/14)

For those that asked questions about the variable pressure relief valve I have attached a number of photos of the unit in the attachment (haven't worked out how to include/paste the photos in the post)

There are no manufacturers details on the valve or body so hope this tells you what you want to know.

Cheers

Wobbly

Moderation

Link to picture deleted as requested by member.


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## wobbly (21/2/14)

_Cool - Sorry for my lack of understanding. Is the beer going into the keg carbonated already? I assume the WW carbonates the beer as it is a service point too right? _

Yes it has been naturally carbonated as part of the fermenting process

_If so, do you then (keep the beer cold elsewhere?) then reconnect to serve it using the WW?_

Yes you keep the beer cold elsewhere and no you don't reconnect the keg to the WW to serve you just treat it as you would a normal keg and dispense it from the keg in the normal fashion via a tap or pluto gun but you would need to keep the keg in a fridge and connected to a CO2 bottle to maintain serving pressure as per normal

Or if you bottle WW sell a counter pressure bottler or you can make your own (there are a number of designs detailed in other topics on this site) and then just chill and consume as you would a normal bottled beer with the difference being no bottle sediment

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly (21/2/14)

_2 days man thats flying, so fermenting under pressure is definately faster then, is it common across all brews or just that yeast, and how long did it take to clear?_

I'm no expert but the WW user manual states that US-05, Nottingham, and S-04 will be finished in around 3 days but suggests to allow a forth day to ensure it has finished.
T-85and WB-06 is stated as being finished in around 5 days and S-23 and W34/70 in around 6 days. The beer is then cold chilled down to around 2C for 12 hours and then a two stage clarification process 24 hours apart is followed to clear the beer ready for consumption.

So for Ales the start to finish process ready for consumption is around 7 days and for Lagers and Pilsners around 9 days all based on using one of the dry yeasts detailed above

I am about to ferment a pilsner using a Wyeast Budvar 2000 yeast and plan to just smack the pack and let it swell and then add to the sediment/yeast bottle and ferment at 15C as per the standard WW procedure for 3 days and if it has reached close to terminal gravity then raise it to 18C for another three days and then chill for 12 hours to drop the yeast and clarify. So if all the hype is correct I will be sampling/drinking this Pilsner on or about the 3rd March 2014 

I will keep you posted

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Beerisyummy (25/2/14)

I hate to rain on your parade Wobbly, but the pilsner will still need some time to itself before it really shines. From my experiments, there is no short cut to this part.

Loving the rest of the thread mate. Some good info.
Get those pics sorted!


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## wobbly (26/2/14)

Beerisyummy said:


> I hate to rain on your parade Wobbly, but the pilsner will still need some time to itself before it really shines. From my experiments, there is no short cut to this part.


Looks like the 3rd March date is slipping already.

The Budvar smack pack took a day longer to swell than I allowed!!!!

Maybe that's why the WW manual recipes for 7 and 9 days all use dry yeast - no smack delay and about twice the number of cells without making a starter

All part of the knowledge gain

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Beerisyummy (26/2/14)

wobbly said:


> Looks like the 3rd March date is slipping already.
> 
> The Budvar smack pack took a day longer to swell than I allowed!!!!
> 
> ...


It's not a problem with the yeast mate. Although, my next experiments will need to involve some dry yeast equivalents to confirm my opinion.

The point I'm making is that the beer will get better after a good lagering. You can totally drink it early, but please try and sample it at different stages and learn the way it changes over time.
This point comes down to personal taste of course.

I add to this a word of warning. Beware the alcoholism that's involved in smashing out quick beers.
Have you had a morning sample yet?


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## roger mellie (27/2/14)

The Pils that I christened the WW with is finished - probably could have left it for another day but it finished at 1.011 (OG was 1.056/7)




Some random photos

Probably at Max Ferment - looked like a can of creamed corn simmering




End of Ferment




Another one at the end of ferment - a CO2 meteor 




After Clarification # 2




In the Glass




Things to like:

1. Watching Fermentation is captivating
2. 9 days Grain to Brain

I haven't had a good taste yet - I hadn't even cleaned my teeth when I poured that glass but from what I could tell the following stood out:
a) Very Clean - no off flavours - no diacetyl - good hop aroma
b Perfect (and quite different) Carbonation. I have experimented with secondary ferments in Kegs before with a spunding valve so am familiar with the difference - best explained as the fact that the bead in the glass is fine (much like champagne) and there is little or no carbonic acid bite.
c) First time I have used 34/70 - think I will go back to S-189 - purely because I think S-189 has better attenuation.

I would have made this recipe at least 5 times in my normal setup - to be honest I can't say that this beer is necessarily a quantum amount better - but I do think that the reduction in the amount of post pitch oxygenation compared to my old method - where I filtered through a CO2 purged 1um filter - is a good thing. 

Things not so good.

1. You end up draining the Sediment trap 3 times. Thats ~ 3L down the tubes. Granted some of this is trub but noticeably I am down on final volume - from a 21L brew I will have < a corny. No real issue as I will up the batch size next time.

On the whole I can't fault this method of brewing. I think the pressurised ferment system is superb. It just works.

On with the experiments - I think a Ruination Clone with an OG ~ 1.070 will be next.

Cheers

RM


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## Beerisyummy (1/3/14)

Can someone please post power consumption figures on the unit, based on actual use.


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## Dan Pratt (1/3/14)

Beerisyummy said:


> Can someone please post power consumption figures on the unit, based on actual use.


are you serious....lol. How many fridges do you have??


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## Scooby Tha Newbie (1/3/14)

Hahahaha, I think I pooed a little.


Pratty1 said:


> are you serious....lol. How many fridges do you have??



Big dollars for a system. And your worried about power consumption? 
Fork out for a solar system. 


God dam makes me feel like starting a new thread. " How to save penny's wile spending pounds"


----------



## Beerisyummy (2/3/14)

Pratty1 said:


> are you serious....lol. How many fridges do you have??


I own four at the moment. This includes one commercial unit that retails for around $2k+, and is a power hungry workhorse if need be.
I ask because I can find no mention of this figure anywhere.

Scooby, That's cool. Dig away! I posted it, so I don't mind if you pick it apart.


----------



## dicko (2/3/14)

Beerisyummy said:


> I own four at the moment. This includes one commercial unit that retails for around $2k+, and is a power hungry workhorse if need be.
> I ask because I can find no mention of this figure anywhere.
> 
> Scooby, That's cool. Dig away! I posted it, so I don't mind if you pick it apart.


Beerisyummy,

There are two other topics, one of which has been started by yourself to point out hidden distastes for this equipment and enquiring as to the power consumption of the machine, and as such I suggest you keep any comments within those threads.
As this topic was started to allow the explanation of the operation of the WPB I will remove any posts that are not on topic or appear to be trying to derail this thread.
I wish to point out that I have no personal affiliation with the WPB or its manufacturers, but am interested in the way it works and this is what THIS topic is about.

Thank you


----------



## Scooby Tha Newbie (2/3/14)

This system is very interesting if you can produce beer faster and at the same quality. 
I would like to know if any of the punter's have tried to place the finished beers in kegs?
How does the system know if the finished beer is carbonated to the correct amount or is that a manual adjustment? 
Either way I watching with interest.


----------



## Beerisyummy (2/3/14)

Scooby Tha Newbie said:


> This system is very interesting if you can produce beer faster and at the same quality.
> I would like to know if any of the punter's have tried to place the finished beers in kegs?
> How does the system know if the finished beer is carbonated to the correct amount or is that a manual adjustment?
> Either way I watching with interest.


Fermenting under pressure allows the brewer to slow down the yeast metabolism. This helps compensate for higher temperatures, which normally accelerate the process.
The quick part comes from the beverage being carbonated at the end of fermentation.

Wobbly has posted a diagram of the CO2/spunding setup around here somewhere. It has a pressure gauge to give you a read out of the internal pressures.
You can also refer to the user manual on the site, which details this part of operation in the appendices.


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## roger mellie (2/3/14)

Beerisyummy said:


> Can someone please post power consumption figures on the unit, based on actual use.


Beer

Much much much less than a normal fridge - no question. Losses are lower/duty cycle is far lower/compressor is 1/4 of the size.

I haven't put my ammeter on the unit - but I will. The compressor/fan setup is quite small - I would suggest about 500W / 2A whilst running/cooling. The glycol recirc pump runs continually - I would assume < 60W. 

The +/- 1 degree cycle sees the unit on and off about every 10 minutes during fermentation - for about 2 minutes. Obviously more frequent when the set point is 1 degree when clarifying.

SHMABO has commandeered the 'fridge that used to be used for fermenting' so all ideas of saving money on power are out the gate.

I will report back with figures from my next brew and give estimated cost for a brew (to one decimal place)/

RM


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## roger mellie (2/3/14)

Scooby Tha Newbie said:


> This system is very interesting if you can produce beer faster and at the same quality.
> I would like to know if any of the punter's have tried to place the finished beers in kegs?
> How does the system know if the finished beer is carbonated to the correct amount or is that a manual adjustment?
> Either way I watching with interest.


Scooby

Sure have - Twice

Transferring from the WW unit to a keg is as simple as a 1M pice of beer line and a black QD. Purge the keg to the same pressure as the WW unit then a tug on the pressure relief valve (occasionally starts the flow of beer. No carbonation is lost during the transfer process - the beer can be drunk straight away from the keg although naturally the beer will warm a degree or 2.

The amount of carbonation is governed by the setting on the back pressure regulator (spunding valve) - at 1.5 Bar (150kPa) back pressure you get roughly 2.5 volumes of CO2. I have just made a pils - with 1.5 bar back pressure it is perfectly carbonated.

I have crapped on before about the difference between force carbing and spunding - the bubbles are finer - thats about all.

RM


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## Elz (5/3/14)

Hi Fellow brewers
I have posted on the 'old thread' but noted that it was getting a littler heated; therefore I welcome this new thread (here's hoping it stays true to topic!).
Observation of WW so far: 
I am using only 20 ml of clarification agent per brew, i.e. clarify beer at day 4.5 after chilling to 1oC. I have found that the beer will naturally clear after pulling a few beers and over a few days (I don't mind cloudy beer at the best of times!). This means that I will normally drink beer after 5.5 days, with clear beer after 6-7 days.
The machine is rather noisy, and currently lives in the kitchen and is not suited to this area. This weekend I will move it down stairs and brew there. I would have preferred a quieter machine more suited to its live in a domestic area.
Brewing only K&K so far, I am finding that this beer is fantastic as an every day beer, but I am still buying craft beers. I expect that as I become more experienced in the brewing process I will be purchasing craft beers less and less in the future.

Anyway up to brew number 9 and are moving from K&K to my first extract brew. Planning on brewing Feral Hop Hog clone or simular. I have dry hopped before but added the hops during the fermentation process which was poor practice as the beer was missing the intended hop aroma/flavour. This time I plan to add hops to the sediment bottle after day 3 or 4 and leave for 3-4 days.
Has any one tried this type of extract recipe and if you have could you please post the recipe with any dry hopping hints.
As the brewery is moving down stairs have any WW users tried using growlers as an alternative to bottling their beer. Again any feedback welcome
Cheers


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## wobbly (5/3/14)

Hi Elz

Like you I found the Glycol pump and condenser fan a bit annoyingly noisy

Another WW owner in South Australia has commented to me via e-mail that he has been able to make his Glycol pump very quiet by increasing the Glycol mix from 5% to close to 15% by adding some more food grade Glycol to the tank. I haven't tried this myself as yet but is something I will keep in mind.

The other annoying issue of the refrigerant condenser fan being noisy more so than the glycol pump is because of the speed the fan runs at (blade tip speed). To reduce the fan noise to an acceptable level I have used a “Kemo M012” speed controller (available in most electronic parts stores like Jaycar) and lowered the fan speed until I can still feel air movement over my wet hand held about 75 mm in front of the condenser unit. This has brought the fan speed noise down to an almost acceptable level

Cheers

Wobbly


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## rehabs_for_quitters (7/3/14)

Now can I ask next time one of you owner folks of a williamswarn has it empty if you would mind posting a close up of the valve assembly at the bottom that stops everything falling out when you remove the sediment bottle,

also how much liquid does the sediment bottle hold and how far from the bottom is the beer pickup for the tap, and while I'm being nosey how many litres finished volume from a 23L brew do you get after removing sediment and clarifying?

Cheers


----------



## Elz (7/3/14)

wobbly said:


> Hi Elz
> 
> Like you I found the Glycol pump and condenser fan a bit annoyingly noisy
> Another WW owner in South Australia has commented to me via e-mail that he has been able to make his Glycol pump very quiet by increasing the Glycol mix from 5% to close to 15% by adding some more food grade Glycol to the tank. I haven't tried this myself as yet but is something I will keep in mind.
> ...


Hi Wobbly
Thanks for the detailed response. I will likely follow the advice once the warranty has ran out, doubt if there will be any issues in the interim, but better safe than sorry). In the meantime down stairs she goes! May be a blessing in disguise as I will likely drink less beer (on the other hand!!!).
Cheers
Shayne


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## wobbly (7/3/14)

RFQ

I'm not going to post photos as the machine is covered by a "patent" and the butterfly valve and pressure relief vale are/look like proprietary items and the patent details that the express permission of the "Owner" must be obtained before copying/taking/posting photos etc. and I respect that requirement.

In answer to your questions:-

The valve at the bottom of the conical tank is a 45 degree butterfly valve about 40mm in dia
The beer pick up line is virtually right at the bottom of the cone just mm above the butterfly valve I would guess that there is only a few mils (if that) of beer left in the tank when it sucks CO2
The sediment bottle holds close to 1lt and is a Nalegen 750ml drink bottle
If you do 2 sediment removals you will end up with around 21lts left from your 23lts
I have found with my fresh wort made in a 20lt Braumeistere that I need to do three sediment bottle empties to remove all the "break material" so to overcome this I have adjusted my brew volume so that I can fill to 25lts at the start and I have been informed that you can fit 26lts in without any issue with krausen impacting on the variable pressure relief valve port
I think if you were fermenting a partial or extract brew you would only need the two empties as the extract has most likely been centrifuged prior to vacuum reduction and therefore a lot more of the break material removed
I need to work on reducing the amount of "break material" I transfer from the BM to the WW. I use Brewbrite and whirl pool but something just isn't right and I will look at my crush next
Cheers

Wobbly


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## schoey (8/3/14)

wobbly said:


> RFQ
> 
> I'm not going to post photos as the machine is covered by a "patent" and the butterfly valve and pressure relief vale are/look like proprietary items and the patent details that the express permission of the "Owner" must be obtained before copying/taking/posting photos etc. and I respect that requirement.
> 
> ...


Hi Wobbly,
the fact that the WW has a patent has nothing to do with being able to post photos of the unit. In fact, part of the application process for a patent is submitting detailed diagrams/descriptions and sometimes photographs to the patent office. These are searchable by the general public so that an inventor can search the database and see if anyone else has a patent on an invention he/she is working on before applying themselves. The only reason you wouldn't be allowed to take a photo and post it online of something you have obtained legally would be signing a non-disclosure agreement or similar.

For those interested, the WW patent can be found on AusPat (http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/auspat/index.htm).


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## MastersBrewery (8/3/14)

whats the patent Number might be an interesting read

Ed: found it , interesting read though I would state none of the parts of the system are patented, it is the sum of the parts that is patented.

eg; temp controlled jacketed fermenters have been around for years, same with pressure control, serving beer from a pressure vessel, the shape of a conical was originally designed so leese and trub could be easily removed. The introduction of clarifying agents (how do you think the commercial brewers do it)

serving beer from the fermenter that's new and as the application says it reduces the possibility of oxygenation and therefore the beer will have a predictably longer shelf life.

the patent on the nut and locking device has lapsed so no longer valid

go for a wonder around the morebeer website they stock every part to build this system


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## shaunous (9/3/14)

rehabs_for_quitters said:


> Now can I ask next time one of you owner folks of a williamswarn has it empty if you would mind posting a close up of the valve assembly at the bottom that stops everything falling out when you remove the sediment bottle,
> 
> also how much liquid does the sediment bottle hold and how far from the bottom is the beer pickup for the tap, and while I'm being nosey how many litres finished volume from a 23L brew do you get after removing sediment and clarifying?
> 
> Cheers


If you want something like this, find a mate who is a diesel fitter. Many makes of earthmoving gear use a device like this on their hydraulic and engine oil sump drains, its just a brass valve, once something is screwed into it, it opens up, in this case the WW bottle, in the machinerys case, a hose to drain the fluids, once it is removed the valve closes, they are simple and i've seen them as weld on and screw on adaters.

As shown here;






But anyway, if your keen on making one, you'd be better off just using a gate valve, why make it fancy?


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## MastersBrewery (9/3/14)

RFQ Link the use of butterfly valves as opposed to ball valves to to reduce loss when switching out attachments to the valve


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## roger mellie (9/3/14)

MastersBrewery said:


> whats the patent Number might be an interesting read
> 
> Ed: found it , interesting read though I would state none of the parts of the system are patented, it is the sum of the parts that is patented.
> 
> ...


OK I will bite

Couldn't find a fermenter rated to 3 Bar
Couldn't find a 32mm Butterly valve with a thread assembly to take a sediment trap
Couldn't find a BPA free sediment bottle that screws into the butterfly valve
Whilst the Morebeer free-standing jacketed conical is a funky looking piece of kit - its not capable of pressure > 5 psi (0.34 BarG) when you need at least 1.2 - 1.5 BarG to carbonate your beverage.

I notice some chat about Patents etc - you only break a patent if you try and plagiarise a patented item and then try and gain commercial advantage by selling your copy.
I would assume that the Braumeister is patented - for example. Doesn't seem to have stopped a lot of people making a copy for themselves. 

RM


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## MastersBrewery (9/3/14)

roger mellie said:


> OK I will bite
> 
> Couldn't find a fermenter rated to 3 Bar
> Couldn't find a 32mm Butterly valve with a thread assembly to take a sediment trap
> ...


the patent doc does not state rated pressure of the vessel, nor the size of the butterfly valve ( and this would only matter in relation to fitting the tri clove on the fermenter, and for that matter if WW goes out of bussiness your going to have to have parts made to order as they are non standard if something breaks or such. This is a good thing?)

As for sediment trap link would do the trick.

ED: 1.5 inch= 32.1 mm


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## wobbly (9/3/14)

The sediment bottle is branded "Nalgene" and appears to be the same as their 750mil BPA free drink bottle available at most outdoor camping store

Cheers

Wobbly


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## shaunous (9/3/14)

Wobbly = Always helpful


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## wobbly (11/3/14)

wobbly said:


> I am about to ferment a pilsner using a Wyeast Budvar 2000 yeast and plan to just smack the pack and let it swell and then add to the sediment/yeast bottle and ferment at 15C as per the standard WW procedure for 3 days and if it has reached close to terminal gravity then raise it to 18C for another three days and then chill for 12 hours to drop the yeast and clarify. So if all the hype is correct I will be sampling/drinking this Pilsner on or about the 3rd March 2014


Well this turned out to be a failure. Took the Smack pack 36 hours to kick in, before pitching I aerated with an Air Stone, pitched yeast and took 36hrs to indicate any CO2 build up at 15C, OG was 1045 and after 6 days was only down to 1030 so pitched a rehydrated packet of 34/70 and after another 5 days down to 1014 and not going any further. Tried clarifying three times but still very cloudy, taste test indicated infected!!! So ditched.

Thinking back I have previously (pre WW) had an infected Pilsner and in that brew I also used the Air Stone. There must be some bugs in the Air Stone, lines or Pump so that's the end of that equipment

The issue's were:- obviously a less than viable BUDVAR 2000 (in hind sight should have made a starter), under pitched (because smacked pack did not provide enough cells would have been less than 100 billion due to being 6 weeks since date of manufacturer), infection most likely from the air stone equipment somewhere

WW states Dry yeast equals approx. 200 Billion cells and Wyeast state 100 billion for "fresh yeast", Mr Malty indicates a Wyeast smack pack at 6 weeks old possibly only 30% viable cells

So the test of just smacking a Wyeast pack and pitching after it swells isn't a viable option. Will continue brewing with dry yeasts until I have more experience with what you can and can't achieve with the WW

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Beerisyummy (12/3/14)

wobbly said:


> Took the Smack pack 36 hours to kick in, before pitching I aerated with an Air Stone, pitched yeast and took 36hrs to indicate any CO2 build up at 15C.......


Did the pack swell up when smacked?
I'm surprised it took 36 hours to kick off, although you never know how the pack had been treated. Going by my own experiences with liquid yeasts, I'd have a guess the pack had been stored warm for too long.

Personally, I'm a tight arse who makes several starters from each smackpack/vial, and even my earliest, under pitched attempts attenuated to a reasonable level after a sluggish start.
It really does sound like your yeast pack was totally stuffed.
Starting out at a slightly warmer temperature can help kick things off. You just need to make sure you cool it down as the growth phase accelerates. A similar action to using pressure in the fermenter.

I wouldn't discount liquid yeasts as a viable option so quickly Wobbly. There are some great varieties available that you won't get anywhere else.
It sure would be a shame to limit your options with the most important part of the beer!

If your interested, get your hands on a copy of http://www.amazon.com/Yeast-Practical-Fermentation-Brewing-Elements/dp/0937381969 and have a read.

Happy brewing!


PS.
Also, what sort of taste let you know the batch was infected?
The only sort of infections I've encountered have dropped the gravity below what was expected. I wasn't aware that an infection would keep the FG high.
I'm guessing if the infection turns out to be in the WW itself, you won't be ditching it along with the air stone. :lol:
If it is, it'll be interesting to see how hard it is to get rid of.


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## roger mellie (16/3/14)

So the Mad science continues...

A stones Ruination Clone - the highlights of the recipe below.

View attachment 69647


I was kind of pushed for time post whirlpool and wanted to get it in the fermenter - maybe could have left it another 30 mins. Consequently there was a lot of hop material when I transferred to the WW.

Still trying to work out why I missed my OG by so much but its likely to do with close to 6KG of grain in the BM. Nevertheless - FG was 1.010 and after 3 clarifications it was clear (or unclear) that there was still a heap of hop matter preventing the colloidal agent from doing any more.

I had some choices

1.


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## roger mellie (16/3/14)

So the Mad science continues...

A stones Ruination Clone - the highlights of the recipe below. (this is based on Ross's Recipe - cheers Rossco!)





I was kind of pushed for time post whirlpool and wanted to get it in the fermenter - maybe could have left it another 30 mins. Consequently there was a lot of hop material when I transferred to the WW.

Still trying to work out why I missed my OG by so much but its likely to do with close to 6KG of grain in the BM. Nevertheless - FG was 1.010 and after 3 clarifications it was clear (or unclear) that there was still a heap of hop matter preventing the colloidal agent from doing any more.

I had some choices

1. Leave it 
2. Put some alternative fining agent in and leave it.
3. Use my filter and transfer from the WW to Keg via 1um filter (trying not to explode anything) - access how much carbonation was lost

Of course (impatient me) I chose #3 - the only solution that included mad science and use of CO2 in non pressure rated vessels.

A few pictures

The sample I poured yesterday that looked like yarra river water - after settling - clearly the beer was clear but the beer was well above the pick up point on the conical (just above the butterfly valve)

Everything was purged and the pressure equalised slowly to the fermenter pressure.




Open the Fermenter tap - with ~ 80 kPa head pressure the filter filled up to about half way




Using the old Spunding Valve to slowly create a differential pressure - I don't believe the gauge - it never read higher than 55 - and ~40 when the flow started - so I reckon about a 15kPa differential.




Didn't waste much - certainly could have kept going - but the keg was full!




Took about 30 minutes - first pour shows that the beer is still carbonated - on the low side but then again I fermenter under less pressure this time.




There was plenty of this clinging to conical walls - and in the sediment pot.




Flavour is excellent - as described "a celebration of the Centennial hop - fantastic orange marmalade and lifted zesty notes"

things to learn

1. Beers with high hop loads probably need a post filter - or at the very least a longer whirlpool
2. Use of the filter is simple with this system - I didn't blow up anything
3. whilst I wouldn't say that the beer has lost NO carbonation - I can put that back without too much problem

Becaause this was a closed circuit I assume that the majority of the CO2 that came out of suspension did so due to the temperature difference - maybe I could put the filter and the keg in the fridge for a couple of hours.

Will now dry hop in the corny for a week - and just leave it under serving pressure and any carbonation lost will top up during that process.

Onwards and upwards - something ~ 60 IBU's @ 1.050 next I think.

Cheers

RM


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## wobbly (25/3/14)

Back in post #61 on 11/3/14 I posted that I thought the Pilsner was infected and subsequently I ditched it.

Well my latest brew (LCPA clone) exhibited similar clarity and taste issues.

This brew was chilled in the BM to 40C using an immersion coil before transferring to the WW and then cooling further to 23C and pitching the US-05 yeast and fermenting at 23C for 4 days and then chilled to 1C to drop out the yeast. I then carried out the first clarification prior to dumping the sediment bottle contents and then did the second clarification. After about 72 hours following this second clarification the beer was still very cloudy (muddy water look) and had what I would describe as a very bitter hop taste. Fermentation had finished as the SG was 1012

The beer that I poured to view and taste was left on the bench over night in disgust and when I looked at it next morning I could see that there was a distinct line of settlement (yeast/trub?) forming so I left it for a further 24 hours at room temperature and it fully settled out with about the bottom third of the glass being very cloudy/muddy and the top two thirds being clearer not brilliant but certainly a significant amount clearer

The contents of the sediment bottle on the WW was the same with a distinct layer in about two thirds of the bottle!!!!

I reread (not skip reading this time) the WW user manual and in particular appendix 8 and noted that it states. "_It__ is possible to clarify a new sediment layer onto this naturally sedimented yeast, however we find that there is an undesirable reaction between the two that slows down the clarification process"_

In discussion with Roger Meille he has always emptied the sediment bottle after the cold chill and before the first clarification phase and hasn't seen any of the issues I have experienced.

I have also had previous brews/beers that haven't exhibited "off" traits and as far as I recall with those beers I emptied the sediment bottle prior to clarification so clearly (no pun intended) to get clear beer one should follow the instructions!!!!!

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly (25/3/14)

What I didn't mention and maybe should have is if any one is contemplating using "colloidal silica dioxide" to settle the yeast/trub in a standard plastic fermenter or corney used as a fermenter then they may well see the same results that I have by allowing the "colloidal silica dioxide" to mix with the natural settling yeast

It appears that if you remove the natural settled yeast first and then add the "colloidal silica dioxide" there isn't an issue 

Also after letting it settle out the beer was drinkable but not the best brew I have done. Had a slight astringent taste

Cheers

w3


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## MastersBrewery (25/3/14)

Wobbly,
with US05 I have found when pitching even slightly high in temp, can cause off flavours, you might find initial pitch at say 16-17 then ramp up to your ferment temp may help reel this in a bit. I have taken into account the pressurisation, with this comment. Also as 05 is well known for it's diacetyl tendencies I'd probably look at holding off the crash chill an extra 6-12 hours.

I could be way off with ALL of the above, just my perspective having been impatient with it a few times and worn the consequences


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## rehabs_for_quitters (25/3/14)

Just regarding the sediment bottle when reattaching it, does it get purged with CO2 or anything when you chuck it back on to minimise the O2 introduced?
sorry i'm too lazy to read the manual after a liquid lunch


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## Dan Pratt (25/3/14)

roger mellie said:


> I was kind of pushed for time post whirlpool and wanted to get it in the fermenter - maybe could have left it another 30 mins. Consequently there was a lot of hop material when I transferred to the WW.


just a little advice with the BM - I used to whirlpool, chill then add to the FV. Heavy Hopped beers like the Ruination, that additional 30mins would have prevented most of that trub/hop debris. I now use a this method ( as used by many ) ;


Whirlpool @ end of boil with WP hop additions for X mins with pump and wort return
Add Immersion Chiller cool to <40c
remove immersion chiller & manually whirlpool ( with santized stirrer )to get a good whirlpool happening
replace lid and leave for 30mins ( cleanup commences )

SInce i started this additional whirlpool after chilling - the wort is very very clear going into the FV.


----------



## roger mellie (25/3/14)

Pratty1 said:


> just a little advice with the BM - I used to whirlpool, chill then add to the FV. Heavy Hopped beers like the Ruination, that additional 30mins would have prevented most of that trub/hop debris. I now use a this method ( as used by many ) ;
> 
> 
> Whirlpool @ end of boil with WP hop additions for X mins with pump and wort return
> ...


Cheers Pratty

I have been using a CFWC for chilling but I think you are right - an immersion chiller might be a better bet for certain beers.

I am kind of resigned to changing a few things next time I do a bigger beer. I think no chilling is top of that list.

RM


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## roger mellie (25/3/14)

rehabs_for_quitters said:


> Just regarding the sediment bottle when reattaching it, does it get purged with CO2 or anything when you chuck it back on to minimise the O2 introduced?
> sorry i'm too lazy to read the manual after a liquid lunch


Yep - you fill the sediment bottle from the beer tap (pushed backwards to max out the foam (hence CO2)

I also pre purge the sediment bottle with CO2 before I do this.

Cheers

RM


----------



## Dan Pratt (25/3/14)

roger mellie said:


> Cheers Pratty
> 
> I have been using a CFWC for chilling but I think you are right - an immersion chiller might be a better bet for certain beers.
> 
> ...


I'm actually changing to a CFC and probably do away with the IC. I can run the wort to the pump, into the CFC and return to the boil kettle for whirlpool for the WP additions and when its time for cooling turn on the water and leave the whirlpool running, when chilled the pump can be turned off and the 30mins countdown start. Meanwhile the lid is on and no need to remove/add/remove IC from wort.


----------



## Elz (6/4/14)

Hi again fellow brewers
I am planning on filling a growler using the WW counter pressure bottler (cpb). However the nozzle is a tad too small, meaning that the seal is not 100%. Have others tried to use the cpb to fill a growler and if so what has been the work around? I am thinking of adding a piece of rubber above the nozzle? Or just filling really slowing after purging with CO2. Also planning on dry hopping in a few days. In order to reduce the risk of infection i was thinking of adding boiling water to the sediment bottling, containing the hops in a hop sock weighted with some marbles. Thereby sanitising/ killing any bacteria. Then topping up with foam and leaving for 4-5 days. Does this sound logical?
Beers are getting better by the brew, fantastic machine giving constantly good results.
Cheers
Elz


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## Cervantes (26/4/14)

Hi,

I've been reading this with interest.

One thing that hasn't been documented here, with regard the operation of the WW, is how easy is it to clean?

Is there some form of "Clean In Place" function? Or does everything need to be disassembled, cleaned and then sanitised before use?


----------



## Mr. No-Tip (27/4/14)

Cervantes said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've been reading this with interest.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that Ian Williams comes over and cleans it for you.


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## Cervantes (27/4/14)

Mr. No-Tip said:


> My understanding is that Ian Williams comes over and cleans it for you.



You don't get sort of service from Speidel...............


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## Elz (29/4/14)

Pretty easy to clean, once you get the knack. Rinse/wash with water to get rid of the krausen residue, wash with detergent: FV and beer lines (lines under pressure to force through detergent) and sanitise, again lines under pressure. Takes me about 30 minutes. Normally clean whilst grains are steeping. Strip the tap back every third brew and give it a good clean also. Occasionally wipe down the exterior.
cheers Elz


----------



## Cervantes (29/4/14)

Thanks for that.

A couple more questions if you don't mind.

It the conical fermenter section jacketed?

How is the temperature controlled?


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## Elz (29/4/14)

Cervantes said:


> You don't get sort of service from Speidel...............


Probably a marriage made in heaven, but I doubt if the marital bliss would include Mrs. Speidel cleaning the WW


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## wobbly (29/4/14)

Hi Cevantes

Answers to a couple of your questions as far as my knowledge/understanding of the WW workings/controls go. Others may have a different /better answer and I welcome being corrected if the following isn't 100%

The fermentation chamber is insulated.

The bottom cone section is jacketed and is where the chilled glycol is continuously pumped around whilst ever the WW is switched on

The glycol tank has a temperature sensor that controls the refrigeration side which starts and stops as required to maintain the glycol within the set point range

The unit is fitted with an Omron ESCC Omron temperature controller which you adjust manually to the temperature you wish to maintain the fermentation chamber at within +/- 1.0C. You maybe able to refine this band width I just haven't bothered to follow up to see how much finer the control can be set. So if you wanted to control the fermentation chamber at say 23C max then you would set the Omron at 22C and it would then control the temperature of the glycol tank between 22C (refrigeration ON) and 23C( refrigeration OFF)

Trust this answers your questions

Cheers

Wobbly


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## Cervantes (29/4/14)

Wobbly,

Many thanks for the detailed explanation.


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## wobbly (6/9/14)

Well brewers my experience/learning with the WW continues.

In the past I have had an issue with the amount of trub carry over from my 20lt BM which has overloaded the sediment bottle requiring emptying a number of times as well as additional clarification stages.

Based on feed back from a number of brewers and the Braumeister Forum I have increased the boil vigour by adapting a SS bowel to act as a domed lid (Dicko's design) and introduced chilled water (pool pump) into my IC so as to get the wort down to 20C before whirlpooling. The result is that after approx. 1 hour standing you can see the elements in the bottom of the BM. which I couldn't do before. I then slowly drain to the WW and leave about 4 lts cold/hot trub/break in the BM. This has been a significant improvement in the amount of trub/break material settling out in the sediment bottle in the first hours of fermentation

The last two beers I have brewed have been a Kolsh style using Craftbrewer German Ale (K-97 ale yeast) and it has been very difficult/slow to clear after chilling to 2C for 2 days and then adding the Colloidal Silicon Dioxide clarification liquid. The yeast when it drops out of suspension just doesn't compact as does other yeasts such as US-05 for example and it is therefore necessary to empty the sediment bottle additional times

As the yeast is sitting in the bottom of the cone I am tempted to draw it off through the serving tap until I see clear beer flowing but I'm mindful of a potential blockage of the delivery line from the cone to the serving tap which if that happens it can be a bastard to clear. I am aware of a guy in the USA and another in SA that blocked the delivery line and had quite a time trying to clear it.

Not sure if it is possible to increase the size of the beer delivery line or not. Something I will have a look at.

Cheers

Wobbly


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## pk.sax (6/9/14)

http://www.grainfather.co.nz/#!online-store/c1o3q/!/~/product/category=0&id=39751579

More bang for buck, even if you add an extra fermenting fridge and temp controller. Those kiwis don't know how easy they've got it!


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## Elz (6/9/14)

Thanks Wobbly for your invaluable advice around all grain brewing and the WW. When i eventually get to all grain i reckon you have made my brewing somewhat hassle free.
Cheers
Elz
Ps i am seriously eyeing up the Grainfather (but also wanting programable mash)


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## Yob (6/9/14)

You lose 4l in a 20l brew?


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## indica86 (6/9/14)

Yob said:


> You lose 4l in a 20l brew?


2.5k for a Brau, seems worth it????


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## dicko (6/9/14)

Yob said:


> You lose 4l in a 20l brew?


After chilling, I leave the wort sit for one hour to settle. I dont bother trying to whirlpool in my BM because it has little effect in forming a cone.
Depending on the amount of hops I use I leave between 3 and 4 litres to trub and my wort is crystal clear going into the fermenter.
I feel I get a better, cleaner flavour particularly with pale lagers and this method makes salvaging yeast for re use a breeze as the sample in the bottom of the fermenter is very clean when fermentation is finished.


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## Blind Dog (6/9/14)

Elz said:


> Thanks Wobbly for your invaluable advice around all grain brewing and the WW. When i eventually get to all grain i reckon you have made my brewing somewhat hassle free.
> Cheers
> Elz
> Ps i am seriously eyeing up the Grainfather (but also wanting programable mash)


check out posts by Lael towards the end of the bonjuino and matho's $30 controller thread. No idea how the controller would integrate with a grainfather, but it probably could. Or just simply go BM - must admit I try to work out a 5 step mash for every brew, just because I can. If you like your WW, I suspect you'll love a BM.


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## Elz (7/9/14)

Really tempted to buy a BM but every fifth or sixth brew I enjoy brewing an imperial (eg just purchased the heady hopper extract clone from Barleyman). This is the only weakness i see of the BM and the GF is capable of higher gravity. I have also thought of purchasing a BM and topping up with DME
Cheers
Elz


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## wobbly (7/9/14)

Yob said:


> You lose 4l in a 20l brew?


No I don't

I target 24lt into the WW and leave "about" 4lt in the BM.

So my post boil vol in the BM is about 28lt which equals a pre vol boil of close to 34lt which is about the max I can get out of my "20lt BM"

As Dicko states by adopting the above the wort into the fermenter (WW) is crystal clear and I am aware of the "trub in or trub out" experiments carried out by others and the claim that it makes no difference to taste and whilst that may be so my drive is to limit the amount of sediment to be collected in the sediment bottle. Dicko's comments of "cleaner/better flavours" is of interest and from my perspective it's all about the 1% improvements just as there are comments emerging about improved (best ever) beers fermented in the SS Brewbuckets compared to plastic fermenters. Maybe there is something in this "All SS, oxygen free environment ferment to consumption, pressure and temperature controlled process" after all 

The reference to the Craftbrewer German Ale yeast (AKA K-97) is just a follow up on Ian Williams advice/comment that they have not tested all strains of yeast and some may not clear as well as the ones they have tested/recommend when using their clarification agent (Colloidal Silicon Dioxide) 

Cheers

Wobbly


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## manticle (7/9/14)

Hi wobbly,
I have read that k97 is similar or same strain as wyeast 1007. If this is the case, it holds a thick, persistent krausen well after fermentation is finished but will clear beautifully with time, patience and cold 
I should add my experience is with unfined 1007 rather than fined k97 but understand it to typify the experiences of others.


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## pk.sax (7/9/14)

Time, patience and cold are not exactly we selling points.

2 brownie points from you for the oversight.

Of course, OP could simply get a bigger sediment bottle! ffs, the simple things are cheap to do hence not considered.

AFAIK, Chris Taylor did side by side brews with clear wort vs trubby wort and he concluded trub is good. I'm not basing this on my judgement, don't brew enough, but CT did hold the Melbourne brewers dick trophy for years.

On a homebrew scale I'd listen to him before I listen to wee wank.


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## wobbly (7/9/14)

manticle said:


> Hi wobbly,
> I have read that k97 is similar or same strain as wyeast 1007. If this is the case, it holds a thick, persistent krausen well after fermentation is finished but will clear beautifully with time, patience and cold
> I should add my experience is with unfined 1007 rather than fined k97 but understand it to typify the experiences of others.


Hi Manticle
My experience with this yeast (K-97) a couple of times in the WW is yes it holds a krausen long after terminal gravity has been reached and again my experience is it takes at least two and some times three doses of Colloidal Silicon Dioxide to get all the krausen to drop out if trying to get it all out in about 36 hours as you can with the WW process. Sure I can allow the fermented beer to sit at 2C longer and clean it up that way. My comments are posted so that others using this yeast in a WW get an insight to my experiences

Thanks for your input

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly (7/9/14)

practicalfool said:


> Of course, OP could simply get a bigger sediment bottle! ffs, the simple things are cheap to do hence not considered.
> 
> AFAIK, Chris Taylor did side by side brews with clear wort vs trubby wort and he concluded trub is good. I'm not basing this on my judgement, don't brew enough, but CT did hold the Melbourne brewers dick trophy for years.
> 
> On a homebrew scale I'd listen to him before I listen to wee wank.


Hi Practical Fool

As always your "ffs" contributions are valued!!!!

And for your information the WW sediment bottle is a 32oz Nalgene drink bottle that has a specific thread and the available space to fit a larger/bigger bottle is limited and it isn't just as easy as a simple thing "FFS".

I have been in contact with the Nalgene laboratories in the USA seeking a suitable larger bottle that will withstand the particular operating conditions which are 1C to 28C and pressure up to 5bar and they don't make one and it's not something you will pick up at the Green Shed or the local Woollies "FFS"

As to Chris Taylor (who ever he may be) concluding that trub is good I would be interested in how his reported conclusion was scientifically arrived at and as to the brewers dick trophy not sure what that would be suffice to say that it isn't something I will be keen to hold onto any time soon "FFS"

Cheers

Wobbly


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## black_labb (7/9/14)

Do you know how much it costs to to tool up for a run of specially sized and threaded bottle from plastic would be? If he actually did that when making the thing then that bottle is why the thing is so expensive. More than likely Nalgene simply isn't going to suggest any of their bottles to be used at 5 bar as they haven't tested them. Why would they take the chance to sell you a single bottle?

If they realised how much WW owners are willing to shell out they would probably relabel a set of bottles and market them to WW users.

A much better way from the start would be to have a ball valve on the bottom so that sediment and yeast can be drawn off at will, but the WW is made like an apple product on steroids- make something any idiot* can use at the expense of full functionality and charge without remorse for the privilege.

* Not saying all apple or WW users are idiots, just that they are able to be operated by idiots (with a big chunk of spare cash)


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## Blind Dog (7/9/14)

Hi Wobbly, have you brewed a big beer in the BM yet? Just wondered as theoretically I figure the Imperial whatever that Elz likes to brew isn't much of an issue as an OG of around 1075 should be achievable, particularly with the top plate turned upside down a la Dicko's suggestion in another thread. But I've never done it and wouldn't want to suggest something I've never tried.


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## rehabs_for_quitters (8/9/14)

Not stirring the pot here but a question regarding this bottle and its ability to handle 5 bar of pressure at which stage is the system reaching those pressures as if it does I wouldn't be having it in my kitchen for fear of it launching,

I would get a similar one of the Nalgene bottles that fits and drill a hole in the lid put in a tyre valve and pump it up and see if it will handle the pressure the system actually reaches and if it does there's your answer.


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## SnakeDoctor (8/9/14)

He's not the only person to say trub has no negative impacts on a home brew scale, it's been a shown a bunch of times experimentally, as far as scientific process, no - of course not.





wobbly said:


> As to Chris Taylor (who ever he may be) concluding that trub is good I would be interested in how his reported conclusion was scientifically arrived at and as to the brewers dick trophy not sure what that would be suffice to say that it isn't something I will be keen to hold onto any time soon "FFS"


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## Yob (8/9/14)

Do a search ffs 

From memory it has an negative effect on long term storage, most people in the blind starting preferred the trub included batch over the 'filtered' 

On a homebrew scale, and if you are consuming not storing for years, the difference makes no never mind


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## wobbly (8/9/14)

My mistake on the max pressure. Checked the manual and it states "Max Gas pressure - 3Bar" . I previously looked at the "safety Valve" and there is a number impressed in the plastic seal and I assumed this was the valve setting value but in hind sight it is most likely only a tool reference number.

Actually the staff at Nalgene Labs were very helpful to the point they sent me free of charge a 2lt HDPE bottle (rated at 0.2bar) to try but some how we miss communicated the thread dia and it won't fit.

As to the effects of trub on the finished beer I'm in "Dicko's" corner (see post above)

Cheers

Wobbly


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## wobbly (8/9/14)

Blind Dog said:


> Hi Wobbly, have you brewed a big beer in the BM yet? Just wondered as theoretically I figure the Imperial whatever that Elz likes to brew isn't much of an issue as an OG of around 1075 should be achievable, particularly with the top plate turned upside down a la Dicko's suggestion in another thread. But I've never done it and wouldn't want to suggest something I've never tried.


Blind Dog

No I haven't but I know that Roger Mellie has on a number of occasions and post 63 above details his experience with one such brew

Cheers

Wobbly


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## natabecol (18/3/20)

Scooby Tha Newbie said:


> Hahahaha, I think I pooed a little.
> 
> Big dollars for a system. And your worried about power consumption?
> Fork out for a solar system.
> ...



I’m curious because I’m off the grid and on solar power


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