# Making the jump from home brewing to brewing for a living



## bigmacca (14/1/14)

Hey Everybody,

Like alot of you on here I'm a big dreamer but I'm an absolute noob. I could definitely see myself quitting the day job and running a brewery, if only it was that easy. Im interested in knowing if many people have made the jump and turned there passion for brewing beer into profit? 
What about everybody else, considering making the the jump? Whats holding you back?

Cheers
Macca


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## manticle (14/1/14)

I can't think of a better way of ruining a good hobby to be honest but there's many pro brewers on here - some of whom do not post much at all any more.

///, thirsty boy, hargie, stephenkentucky, Doc, and Ross are a few who immediately spring to mind. There's others also who don't brew but work in brew related jobs - yumyumyum, Dr Smurto (works with wine yeast I think but still in fermentation and the science of fermentation) and some of the HB store owners such as Ross (again) and MHB.

Brewdog guys were homebrewers if their story is to be believed, Ron from temple was an avid and passionate homebrewer, homebrewing mate and fellow Melbourne Brewers club member Hoser is currently working for Mornington after some voluntary work, dan Dainton from grain and grape works for James Squire (and might have his own thing going on), Kai used to be with white rabbit (or still is?), Fents and trav were both with kooinda, proudscum is brewing for southern bay brewing company.

****, just realised how many of these member are MIA.

More besides. Can be done - pretty much all the above know their stuff and have done their groundwork.


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## barls (14/1/14)

You will get paid better selling beer.
Been there and I'm better off selling it for one of the major chains


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## recharge (14/1/14)

Thought about it, wild bull brewery in dardanup was/is for sale but the 1.7 mil was/is holding me back.

Rich


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## JDW81 (14/1/14)

Nope, would never want to own a brewery. I enjoy it on a home scale and that is it. Same with cooking and sourdough. Love experimenting with different flavours and textures, but wouldn't want to have my enjoyment killed off by it being a job. I suspect there is more time taken up by running the business side of things, than actually brewing.

Good luck to those who do. If your beer is good, I will buy it.

JD


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## bigmacca (14/1/14)

I guess it could kill the hobby, take the fun out of it.
I actually really enjoy business and also enjoy brewing so its sounds like a good idea to me! 
Im an MBA (yes another one) so i have a slight understanding of finance and business operation, just dont know much about brewing haha.

The wild bull was actually one of my local brewerys. Sad that it has closed, 1.7mil is very pricey. The venue is back on the market for a lot less!


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## O'Henry (14/1/14)

If you are not so concerned about money and you are good for some hard slog then it is definitely doable. I started out with AG and /// just volunteering at five islands 5 years ago. First paid job was scrubbing the floor and cleaning graffiti and cigarette butts. Can't say it was the best job, but it led to the next and the people were pretty great.

The biggest problem I have seen with people wanting to get into brewing, when given a chance in a brewery, is how unrealistic their expectations are. In small places, it is hard physical work, kegging, bottling, 8-10 hours a day. I've seen a shift in a manual brew house lay a guy out for 2 days never to return, he had done the Masters at Heriot Watt. Most places are running tight on staff too which is the biggest problem for me. That, and sacrificing beer quality. So frustrating.

I recommend asking around at all the breweries near to you if they need help or if you can come along for a day and check it out. Persistence is the key.


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## bigmacca (14/1/14)

O'Henry said:


> If you are not so concerned about money and you are good for some hard slog then it is definitely doable. I started out with AG and /// just volunteering at five islands 5 years ago. First paid job was scrubbing the floor and cleaning graffiti and cigarette butts. Can't say it was the best job, but it led to the next and the people were pretty great.
> 
> The biggest problem I have seen with people wanting to get into brewing, when given a chance in a brewery, is how unrealistic their expectations are. In small places, it is hard physical work, kegging, bottling, 8-10 hours a day. I've seen a shift in a manual brew house lay a guy out for 2 days never to return, he had done the Masters at Heriot Watt. Most places are running tight on staff too which is the biggest problem for me. That, and sacrificing beer quality. So frustrating.
> 
> I recommend asking around at all the breweries near to you if they need help or if you can come along for a day and check it out. Persistence is the key.


Great advice O'Henry!


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## BreadMurderer (14/1/14)

I HAVE quit my job partly inspired to do something like this.

I love beer and love to learn about it too. I've only done homebrewing (AG) for 6+ months and have taken a 6 month hiatus because of said quiting job (I'm in Beijing right now) but I'm completely open to the prospect of at least working in a brewery (scrubbing floors, anything). As for turning a hobby into a job, completely fine by me, my work is IT related which I'm just not enjoying any more. I'm 28 this month by-the-by and completely appreciate my situtation is not like a lot of folks on here, or anywhere I suppose.

Anyway nothing solid for me yet but I'm riding the wave of hope, luck and determination to see what happens. Bar work would be fine as long as I was pulling pints of craft and not raft.


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## pk.sax (15/1/14)

I'm actually finishing up very soon, could call it close to burnt out by my work. Have been thinking, not too hard yet, about asking around to see if some brewery around Melbourne would let me pitch up and do what they need done on a no contract basis (can't survive on low pay for too long, liabilities). Beer, food and petrol money would be appreciated but my expectations aren't high.


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## Phoney (15/1/14)

If you want to make money selling beer, buy SABMiller or Kirin shares. Because Aussies love shit beer.


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## Dan Pratt (15/1/14)

If your really beleiving this is your path, take a step back....get a full time role in a craft brewery and after 12 months on the floor then decide if you could do it yourself. That's my 2bucks worth! 

Also, go to gabs and taste the beers and then convince yourself that your beers are better vs the Australian made beers. If you can do that then why not.


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## mxd (15/1/14)

couple of breweries for sale in WA (Bush Shack and Ironbark)


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## TimT (15/1/14)

If you think you can do it, and you want to, good for you. There'd be a lot of hard work and sacrifices you'd have to make I reckon.

I don't want to do it myself. My aims - to be able to make great brews at home so it's part of my cooking repertoire, and to spread the wisdom and the love of the craft with a book or two. If I can help do so by doing classes, even better.


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (15/1/14)

I have always wanted to buy a small winery in the hunter/Lockyer valley and open a micro on premises (along with b&b, etc....) But not for quite a few years yet.


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## Greg.L (15/1/14)

If you live in a rural area it is much easier to do, but not so easy to sell the product. If you buy an acreage it is even easier. Whatever, you only get out what you put in, and be prepared for a very steep learning curve. If you think you already know what you need to know, then you will probably fail.


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## zeggie (15/1/14)

If it's your dream, go for it *BUT* work for someone else for a year or 3 and learn the business before going out on your own.
I see too many people with buy pubs, cafes, with NO experience and flush their money down the toilet.


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## bigmacca (15/1/14)

Great advice guys. I'm currently making a few phone calls to some brewery's in WA hoping to do some volunteer work. If you know of anybody who runs a brewery in WA and might be looking for some free labour I would love to spend a few days with them. 
I'm pretty fortunate I love fairly close to a WA city but live on some acreage with plent of shed space to fit some fairly large equipment. Wouldn't be an ideal place for a brew pub tho. Ever heard of anybody selling beer made from the own house? All brewery I know of a set up as a resturant/pub which is how they make a majority of the money.

My ideal plan is to start a brew pub selling craft beer on tap from a number of craft brewery's across Australia. And also maybe put my own beer on tap aswell, whilst trying to get my beer in a few bottle shops and other pubs. In addition to this maybe run a little craft brew bottlo on the side and online. Big plans big dreams we will see what happens over the next few years


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/1/14)

The biggest prob is all the hoops you have to jump thru just to be able to start brewing. You have to deal with local,state & federal gov levels and has to be done in a certain order.


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## Dan Pratt (15/1/14)

Another bit of advice....research liquor licence's. It will cost you 2-3k just to get a solicitor to complete an impact statement and if that red tape doesn't stop you its only the tip of the iceberg.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/1/14)

Pratty1 said:


> Another bit of advice....research liquor licence's. It will cost you 2-3k just to get a solicitor to complete an impact statement and if that red tape doesn't stop you its only the tip of the iceberg.


You dont need a solicitor. If you need a solicitor then you prob shouldnt be doing it.

I started the process ( in NSW ) a few years ago, but other things ( divorce ) got in the way

You need to get consent from local council wich involves DA' etc and all the health regs etc.

Then you apply to the Liqour lic board for a producers licence. Its reasonably straight forward as long as you tick all the boxes and have everything sorted with your local council

Then you apply to the ATO for an excise licence. They will require recipies, calibrated equipment and a secure bond store.

Not hard, juat tedious and time consuming.


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## waggastew (15/1/14)

Check out the Brewing Network podcasts (on their website or iTunes). It's US based but has some great shows on going pro, setting up a nano/micro.

Another thing to consider is timing. Alot of new breweries opening at the moment but there is likely to be some sort of shake-out in the next few years.

Not sure how Oz liquor licences etc work but the nano option (brew on a v.small scale in an industrial unit and sit on tap at local beer bars) may be a cheaper (but certainly not cheap) way to get your kicks.

I am with some of the other posters however, brewing is a great hobby that I wouldn't want to bugger up with BAS forms, excise etc. I have a nice well paid professional job which gives me enough cash to be a part time micro-brewer, chef, drummer in a rock band, fisherman etc. If I owned my own brewery I would have no time or money for any of those things!

Stew


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/1/14)

Regardless of how small you go, you still need a licence for production and exciss. Even pubs need these licences addionally to their retail licence.


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## Moad (15/1/14)

BreadMurderer said:


> I HAVE quit my job partly inspired to do something like this. I love beer and love to learn about it too. I've only done homebrewing (AG) for 6+ months and have taken a 6 month hiatus because of said quiting job (I'm in Beijing right now) but I'm completely open to the prospect of at least working in a brewery (scrubbing floors, anything). As for turning a hobby into a job, completely fine by me, my work is IT related which I'm just not enjoying any more. I'm 28 this month by-the-by and completely appreciate my situtation is not like a lot of folks on here, or anywhere I suppose. Anyway nothing solid for me yet but I'm riding the wave of hope, luck and determination to see what happens. Bar work would be fine as long as I was pulling pints of craft and not raft.


Identical situation to me, burnt out by I.T at 28, lost interest. Contacted local breweries but hard to get a look in...


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## Stormahead (15/1/14)

I think I was probably burned out in IT by about age 30

Certainly a common theme!

I'm also looking to move over to pro brewing shortly


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## bigmacca (15/1/14)

Good to hear both sides of the coin! I understand that there is a huge amount of red tape to get through, I guess this is the reason there is not more people doing craft brews. But I believe the craft brew movement still has a lot of growth. The more aussies making good quality the better I say!!


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/1/14)

I think NSW has relaxed the cost and conditions for microbreweries and now allow brewery door sales. Previously you could only sell beer to wholesalers or retail licenced venues, and these licences are a lot exy than a producers licence.


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## TimT (15/1/14)

The other interesting job possibility is being a brewer at a restaurant or cafe. I used to pop in every day to a really cool cafe in North Melbourne on my way to work - aside from some of their own sweeties, they made their own sauerkraut, pizza dough, and I think made their own ricotta. In places like that, I reckon brewing would be right up their alley.


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## Moad (15/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I think NSW has relaxed the cost and conditions for microbreweries and now allow brewery door sales. Previously you could only sell beer to wholesalers or retail licenced venues, and these licences are a lot exy than a producers licence.


Do you know what type of license this is mate?


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/1/14)

Producers licence.


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## Philthy79 (15/1/14)

G'day bigmacca.. 
Im currently developing my business plan for a micro - even getting that done is a lot of hard work. Ducatiboy Stu is right about ATO, licences etc if you starting up from scratch (which I may be doing). 

Good luck!


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## Moad (15/1/14)

Sorry stu I misread your original post. Thanks for that


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## Greg.L (15/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I think NSW has relaxed the cost and conditions for microbreweries and now allow brewery door sales. Previously you could only sell beer to wholesalers or retail licenced venues, and these licences are a lot exy than a producers licence.


NSW has different rules for regional areas and the city. In the regions you can sell bottles retail but in cities you are more restricted, unless you get a full retail licence. City councils are likely to be a lot more strict as well. Liquor licensing is a state responsibility so it depends entirely what state you are in. You need to check the website of the authorities in your state.


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## /// (15/1/14)

Greg - um no. Same rules apply at the state
Level across NSW. A council can put conditions which impact the state license.

O'Henry forgets to mention he not only turned up with a hangover on day 1, and did not learn from that, and kept turning up. Per his example, lots of volunteers but few ever return, it ain't romantic standing on a filling line all day or lifting 120 65 kg manually

A good chef is not like a good cook, same with brewing. Making a day job out of it is all about repeatable process, not the romance of doing what you want when you want

Chefs have hangry people demanding food and equally cranky staff around them yelling at them for 12 hours a day, working crap hours and standing up to your nuts in grease. A home cook may have shitty kids to deal with, but not for 12 hours a day ...

Hb'ing focuses so much in wort, seldom about the downstream. On the flip side, wort is for show, the down stream is all about the dough. Degas 140 over carbonated kegs and see how much fun that is and never make that mistake again. nah, it ain't all bad, the birds chirp in summer when I leave the house at 4.50 am ...


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## manticle (15/1/14)

And the bling is massive. Giant kettle, giant chiller, giant callouses.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/1/14)

One of the realities I looked at was filling and capping bottles....

You think doing a batch of 40 bottles on a weekend is a pain. Think about doing 400 every day or even every 2nd day. The romance is great.....but the rest is not. 

Lots of hard boring work.

And not to mention that you have to keep production up all year just to make a few bucks.

The analogy to a chef is a good one.


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## going down a hill (16/1/14)

waggastew said:


> Check out the Brewing Network podcasts (on their website or iTunes). It's US based but has some great shows on going pro, setting up a nano/micro.


A great episode on the session was with Tom Hennessy, the man has a lot of great tips and tricks for starting your own brewery or brew pub. http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/972

Personally, I'm happy with brewing in my backyard.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/1/14)

A lot of those shows are great, but the problem is that they dont often relate to what is available here. Both in terms of cost and availability. Sure you can buy a turn-key system, but you are going to need a few $$ to do that. 

If you have the ability the think outside the square with regard to equipment, and buy 2nd hand equipment and be able to modify it to suit then you will get closer to your dream. 

Either way its not easy, but it is achievable. There are many small brewers who bit the bullet and had a go, and are still going. 

They are not millionares, but they are living the dream and happy doing that.


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## manticle (16/1/14)

My dream involves a tall lady with long hair, glasses and corporate dress driving a forklift. She is quite heavily tattooed but knows a lot about beer, art and football (soccer). She drinks pints, drives front end loaders and loves wearing bikinis at the beach.

When we are alone she ******* with my ***** and then we ******** after I have ***** her ********. That said, I have also dreamed that I am being sucked into an air conditioning system and my mother is at the other end telling me why I died. Cuts both ways.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/1/14)

manticle said:


> When we are alone she cleans my toilet with my toothbrush and then we argue after I have worn her bra. That said, I have also dreamed that I am being sucked into an air conditioning system and my mother is at the other end telling me why I died. Cuts both ways.


Your mum is a smart lady


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## wide eyed and legless (16/1/14)

I had a letter from the Chinese government asking me to go back to open a micro brewery with a sports bar, they will also allow me to have a gaming licence, an air conditioner allowed to go below 26 degrees C, a huge t.v where I can show all the premiership games and live horse racing from around the world.
Bets will have no limit and the government want 10% of all bets placed.
I have agreed to go back if they can head hunt Manticles fork lift driver, remove the tattoos and keep his mother out of the air conditioner.


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## Greg.L (16/1/14)

/// said:


> Greg - um no. Same rules apply at the state Level across NSW.


Um no, same rules do not apply across the state. From the producer/wholesaler section of the OLGR website - 

"For small-scale regional brewers and distillers, the licence also allows tastings and retail sales in bottles at the licensed premises."


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## Sully (16/1/14)

manticle said:


> When we are alone she ******* with my ***** and then we ******** after I have ***** her ********. That said, I have also dreamed that I am being sucked into an air conditioning system and my mother is at the other end telling me why I died. Cuts both ways.



Today's "Safe Word" is GOOGLE...


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## /// (16/1/14)

Its not that bad, and i encourage anyone to have a go, far from trying to bring a bad impression here.. But there is a few threads here in one. Running your own business, and one based on cash (as a venue is) is damm hard. If you are the brewer and salesman and accountant it is even harder. You have to seperate these out of making the transition from HB to day job.

I dipped out of the business side when I came onto staff at Rocks, and i realised I am happier to follow than be the person at the pointy end. That being the case, whilst there is not the romance of the home style approach, i like the process and application side, and have learnt a truckload on the technical and project side. And, making beer on bigger volumes is easier (particularly for repeadability) than a HB size batch with all the bells and whistles.

Scotty


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## JDW81 (16/1/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I have agreed to go back if they can head hunt Manticles fork lift driver, remove the tattoos and keep his mother out of the air conditioner.


In China anything is possible with the right connections….


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## manticle (16/1/14)

In Soviet China forklift instructor head hunts you.


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## Mardoo (16/1/14)

FWIW here's my experience in another field. Might help you think about it. Cooking has always been a hobby of mine, since age 8. I wanted to get a job in a restaurant, but the first thing that was offered to me was as a pastry chef's assistant/trainee. I did it for 9 years and quickly came to really enjoy it 

After I moved on I started doing pastry at home, and hated it. Why? No dedicated facility, no proper equipment, limitations on ingredients, no challenging standard I had to meet. I liked being a professional pastry chef but not a hobbiest.

Cooking however, I loved being a hobbyist, massaging amazing results out of my limitations, having no expectations other than my own to meet. Once I finally got into a professional kitchen I hated every moment if it. I kept at it for a year but it became utterly clear that it was not my thing. AT. ALL.

So while you're setting up your chance to get into a professional brew house maybe think about what kind of brewer you are. Do you want to sit watching your fermentation, contemplating yeast and the universe, continually tweaking your recipes that extra step further? Or do you want to produce, and I do mean produce, an amazing product that meets the wants of your public, every day, over and over for as long as you can?

Just my reflections I've gone through myself over this same question.

Oh, and Manticle, if you ever take your dreams professional you could probably earn some pretty good money...


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## /// (16/1/14)

Greg.L said:


> Um no, same rules do not apply across the state. From the producer/wholesaler section of the OLGR website -
> 
> "For small-scale regional brewers and distillers, the licence also allows tastings and retail sales in bottles at the licensed premises."


Every brewer has the ability to run a cellar door, Batch, Young Henrys and doon to be Blackrock Brasserie are 2 new applicants utilizing this system. Same rules apply to CBD brewers


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## malt_shovel (16/1/14)

I made some preliminary enquiries around launching a craft beer onto the commercial scene in Perth and after talking to a few people in the industry here, started crunching some numbers looking at it from a contract brewing stand-point (least capital outlayed). It quickly became apparent that there are major hurdles with this (main one being finding a tap location amongst the few places that keep taps open for independents, and the cost per keg to brew on someone else's equipment (if they let you!) with excise on top of all that). That then lead to the conclusion (in my mind) that in Perth at least, the best chance of making it work is around creating tap points (producer and serving licences), which means a larger outlay around either inserting yourself in an existing premise (BlackSalt in Port Beach is an example of this), or starting your own pub / brew-pub. For me this would mean a requirement to work around the clock running two businesses, not just one, and usually that doesn't fit with having a young family. 

For me it seemed too risky (marriage / family, money, lifestyle) given the current stage of my life. I wish anyone who makes the decision all the best and will gladly go out of my way to help a start-up brewery near me. I will always day-dream.

Cheers


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## Greg.L (16/1/14)

/// said:


> Every brewer has the ability to run a cellar door, Batch, Young Henrys and doon to be Blackrock Brasserie are 2 new applicants utilizing this system. Same rules apply to CBD brewers


I am referring specifically to the producer/wholesaler license. This is the cheapest and easiest license. You would need to go to those brewers you refer to and ask them what license they hold, but in Sydney if you only hold a producer/wholesaler license you can't sell retail. In regional areas you can.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/1/14)

The rules are not very clear

http://www.olgr.nsw.gov.au/liquor_license_apps.asp#pl

It would appear that it falls under the area of wine...somewhat confusing in that it does not specifically talk about brewery's...its very vague

From what I can read, you need authorisation to drink on premises and sell bottles only, regardless if its regional or city.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/1/14)

Greg.L said:


> but in Sydney if you only hold a producer/wholesaler license you can't sell retail. In regional areas you can.


As I see it written, even a regional brewery needs authorisation.


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## Greg.L (16/1/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> As I see it written, even a regional brewery needs authorisation.


The OLGR website is a bit of a mess and confusing, but the passage I quoted earlier is in there. You have to get the council DA approval, which may be easy or hard depending on the locality, but from there the license is mostly just a formality. Every brewer has to do the commonwealth excise thing but once you have a license you can go for it. You would of course need to confirm all this with OLGR, you wouldn't start a business based on a thread in AHB. If you can find a reference for authorisation required you should post it I would be interested. In regional areas of NSW the local gvt is the main consent authority.

Edit; if you actually want to open a bar you need authorisation, but for bottled sales and "tastings" you don't.


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## /// (16/1/14)

Kinda blurring 4 licenses together here.

A producers allows to sell tasters and beer in keg or small pack for take away consumption

If food is the primary driver, aka pub brewery, you can apply for a drink on premises authorization. This is what restaurants apply for

Or you can go a small bar - on premise service only, or hotel - full on and off license.

I was part of the CBIA board submission to allow brewers to sell on and off premise and hold equivalent to a drink and dine authorization as an automatic condition of the producers license as wine makers can and do in the recent statutory NSW liquor review. Also, there was a separate submission to also allow brewer to sell at farmers markets and the like (as wine makers can).

Apart from the drink authorization type license I have or will hold all the rest of the licenses. 

It's not that confusing, or you just go to grant cusack lawyers, chuck him $5k and he looks after all of it for you. He has done 5 licenses for us now ...


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## Bizier (17/1/14)

/// said:


> lifting 120 65 kg manually


Ramps are much cheaper than employee backs.


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## /// (17/1/14)

Hence why i have a keg descender ...


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## bigmacca (19/1/14)

Thanks everybody for the reply! This thread has given me alot to to think about and even more to research. Best of luck to those who are considering making the jump.
Cheers
Macca


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## jimmy86 (22/1/14)

[quote name="///" post="1128050" timestamp="
.I was part of the CBIA board submission to allow brewers to sell on and off premise and hold equivalent to a drink and dine authorization as an automatic condition of the producers license as wine makers can and do in the recent statutory NSW liquor review. Also, there was a separate submission to also allow brewer to sell at farmers markets and the like (as wine makers can).Apart from the drink authorization type license I have or will hold all the rest of the licenses. ...[/quote]

So has this ruling been passed or is it still in the hands of the government?
If not how long till it could be put through?


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## /// (24/1/14)

jimmy86 said:


> So has this ruling been passed or is it still in the hands of the government?
> If not how long till it could be put through?


It is only a recommendation to go forward to the Parliament atm, the CBIA has a working plan members will work on. This is also something general punters can also support via contacts to thier state member. I think June is when the whole review would go to Parliament.

Needless to say, the Liquor Act may be a bit of pressure atm with what is going on in Sydney/NSW .....


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## jimmy86 (29/1/14)

Fingers crossed it will go through. I've signed up as a member for cbia. 
I spose all these dikheads throwing these punches have guts chokka block full of three sheets pale ale too.
Bring on the Newcastle act, it worked there ... But that's neither here nor there.


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## davedoran (29/1/14)

Good topic for Brewery in NSW. Goes through some of the details discussed above but has a lot of info on the web page as well

http://www.caseysbeer.com.au/?page_id=423


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## bigmacca (1/2/14)

dave doran said:


> Good topic for Brewery in NSW. Goes through some of the details discussed above but has a lot of info on the web page as well
> 
> http://www.caseysbeer.com.au/?page_id=423


Ive been following the caseysbeer.com.au site for a while now. Its a great resource.
Best of luck to the bloke!


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## Phoney (2/7/14)

To bump an old thread... as this was probably the most recent one out of many on this topic:

If I want to sell my beer, under my own brand name, but have no intention of spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on establishing and fitting out a premises. ie: I will only be contract brewing at my mates established & licensed brewery.

Do I just pay the $500 for a NSW producers license, insurance and I'm good to go? If not, what else would I need to get this far?


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## jimmy86 (2/7/14)

You will need an excise licence from the ato to be blessed with paying tax.
Only guessing with this but an approved DA from the local council since it's requested at the top of the producers application.

Then your own kegs, marketing and all the other fun things with running a business.

Give olgr a call they are really helpfull.


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## Greg.L (2/7/14)

The council are the first people to talk to, they make the decisions on who can sell booze in their council area, so be nice to them.


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## /// (3/7/14)

Phoney said:


> To bump an old thread... as this was probably the most recent one out of many on this topic:
> 
> If I want to sell my beer, under my own brand name, but have no intention of spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on establishing and fitting out a premises. ie: I will only be contract brewing at my mates established & licensed brewery.
> 
> Do I just pay the $500 for a NSW producers license, insurance and I'm good to go? If not, what else would I need to get this far?


Phoney

Ignore the above (sorry fella's, you are not right here). If you are seeking access to a _Contract Brewed Beer_ you will need a _NSW Wholesale Licence_, this allows you to buy from and sell to another _Licence Holder_. 

If you are going this route, you order the beer and all raw material / energy / copack inputs should be itemized and invoiced by the _Contract Brewer_, which when the product is to be released from their _Bonded Excise Area, _the residual and all excise needs to be payed. Typically the Contract Brewer will ask for 50% up front (inc all raw material/energy/excise/copack amounts) and then 50% on release from the warehouse (residual + excise unless you are moving to a bonded store).

For a Wholesale License, you apply to _NSW Liquor and Gaming_, but have to check on the Councils input. All NSW Liqour Licenses require the license to be linked to a _Physical Address_, this may be your 2 year olds bedroom, but there are specific requirements whether you are a _Tenant_ or _Owner Occupier_.

Anyways, we have been thru 6 license applications, and a good lawyer may seem a bit of $$, but can save you a ton grief at the end of the day. We always appoint Grant Cusack http://www.hatziscusack.com.au/

I know Grant has done a number of these applications and knows his stuff.

Anyways, any more info let me know. I am the CBIA State Rep and hence have a degree of pastoral care for such matters.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/7/14)

If you are going to run a bonded store then the ATO will need to be consulted and approval obtained. They want stuff like physical adress, methods to secure the alcohilic product..etc

Its easier if you pay the excise before it leaves the contract brewers permises.


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## spog (3/7/14)

Perhaps getting in touch with Dr Smurto will help in answering questions in the minefield of commercial brewing,he may be able to give you info of who to talk to.,anyone here been lucky enough to try Dr,s orders brews?


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## jimmy86 (3/7/14)

Thanks Scotty, happy to be corrected.

And spog Drs orders is doc and not dr smurto as far as I know. Doc was the cuckoo's nest brewer where he takes over the brewery ... In a sense.

Warning I was wrong earlier in this thread


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## mje1980 (3/7/14)

spog said:


> Perhaps getting in touch with Dr Smurto will help in answering questions in the minefield of commercial brewing,he may be able to give you info of who to talk to.,anyone here been lucky enough to try Dr,s orders brews?


/// is also involved in the brewing industry. He also likes wearing garish shirts and walks on the beach.


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## jimmy86 (3/7/14)

Also to add I really enjoy trying Dr's orders beers spog. And they will be easier to access now he has started to bottle.


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## /// (3/7/14)

Doc may do some work in the brewery on the wort production side, but most do not give this option and the site does all the work. Ie. you order the beer, pay your bill, get your stock.

Last year I contracted over 250,000l across 4 sites (have brewed in 8-9 over time), know this gig backwards as well as the NSW Licensing and ATO.

Scotty


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## Burt de Ernie (3/7/14)

> Um no, same rules do not apply across the state. From the producer/wholesaler section of the OLGR website -
> 
> "For small-scale regional brewers and distillers, the licence also allows tastings and retail sales in bottles at the licensed premises."


I think this has something to do with the zoning of the property where the brewery/winery is on.


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## Burt de Ernie (3/7/14)

The licensing, brewery plant and making beer are lesser issues when wishing to make money from brewing. IMO the business of brewing is primarily a volume game. This means the breweries with the best distribution are the most successful.


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## Ducatiboy stu (3/7/14)

Burt de Ernie said:


> The licensing, brewery plant and making beer are lesser issues when wishing to make money from brewing. IMO the business of brewing is primarily a volume game. This means the breweries with the best distribution are the most successful.


110% TRUE


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## peas_and_corn (4/7/14)

spog said:


> Perhaps getting in touch with Dr Smurto will help in answering questions in the minefield of commercial brewing,he may be able to give you info of who to talk to.,anyone here been lucky enough to try Dr,s orders brews?


Dr S isn't a (commercial) brewer. The guy who runs doctors orders is Doc


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## Greg.L (4/7/14)

/// said:


> Phoney
> 
> Ignore the above (sorry fella's, you are not right here). If you are seeking access to a _Contract Brewed Beer_ you will need a _NSW Wholesale Licence_, this allows you to buy from and sell to another _Licence Holder_.
> 
> ...


It's good to get such accurate information posted. I thought Phoney wanted to sell direct to the public which is why I said go to council. It must be hard getting small volumes sold through retail outlets.


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## Greg.L (4/7/14)

Burt de Ernie said:


> I think this has something to do with the zoning of the property where the brewery/winery is on.


It is just a matter of whether the brewery is outside Sydney, zoning would be important but that is part of the DA process. If you want to sell booze direct to the public you need a suitable location (eg not next to a school).


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## Phoney (4/7/14)

/// said:


> Phoney
> 
> Ignore the above (sorry fella's, you are not right here). If you are seeking access to a _Contract Brewed Beer_ you will need a _NSW Wholesale Licence_, this allows you to buy from and sell to another _Licence Holder_.
> 
> ...



Thanks so much Scotty! Legend. Can you give me a ballpark sort of figure of costs to get off the ground with a NSW wholesale license and be ready to contract brew? 




Greg.L said:


> It's good to get such accurate information posted. I thought Phoney wanted to sell direct to the public which is why I said go to council. It must be hard getting small volumes sold through retail outlets.




Well I do want to sell direct to the public. Though the "retail outlets" are usually called pubs or bars and the council is already well aware of them. I have friends who are publicans and / or managers of licensed premises. As soon as I can commercially produce kegs of beer, they will buy them off me and put them on tap for the public to devour. It's as simple as that. However given that it generally costs around $170 to produce a keg via contract, and you sell them for $250, I don't want to invest too much into this venture when the profit margins are so slim.


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## Greg.L (4/7/14)

You are lucky to have contacts like that, selling booze is much harder than making it. For me, the idea of contracting one place to make beer to sell in another place doesn't seem to have much point, I can't see where the fun is. Making your own beer and selling it direct to punters, yes.


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## Phoney (4/7/14)

Greg.L said:


> You are lucky to have contacts like that, selling booze is much harder than making it. For me, the idea of contracting one place to make beer to sell in another place doesn't seem to have much point, I can't see where the fun is. Making your own beer and selling it direct to punters, yes.



1. I will still be designing the recipe, branding it with my own name, and actually brewing the beer. ie: Mashing in, boiling and cleaning up up afterwards. I'll just be using an established breweries equipment, kegs, excise license etc to do so (which just happens to belong a mate of mine). Brewing on a big system should be a hoot.
2. Well I'll be free to stand next to the taps wearing a logo'd shirt and each time a punter walks up say "Hey, that one's my beer, I brewed it, you should try it", but I couldn't be bothered with that.  Craft beer when it's on tap in trendy bars sells itself. What did you have in mind by 'direct to punters'?


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## Greg.L (4/7/14)

I don't mean to criticise what you are doing, sounds fine to me and a good opportunity, just not something I would consider rewarding. By direct to punters I mean a brewpub sort of thing, that would be my idea for a craft brewery.


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## Phoney (4/7/14)

It's OK we all have different priorities. Opening a brewpub would be fun and a rewarding experience no doubt, but it's something that I would need to quit my day job and take on full-time. I'm not the least bit interested in that. This is more or less an extension of my hobby, taking it to the next level but cautiously starting small. I'm not expecting a great ROI. 

I'll stick with what I know for earning a crust, I'm far too heavily indebted with mortgages and investments to go out and take a gamble on starting a new busines in an industry which is new to me. Perhaps eventually in a decade or two's time when I inherit the big bucks I'll have a different outlook on life.


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## pk.sax (4/7/14)

May your kegs take off at the pubs... I know quite a few would be insanely jealous of your position.


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## Burt de Ernie (4/7/14)

> It is just a matter of whether the brewery is outside Sydney, zoning would be important but that is part of the DA process. If you want to sell booze direct to the public you need a suitable location (eg not next to a school).


You are talking two things here....the LEP determines the zoning of an area and if the property isn't zoned for alcohol sales or production then you cant even submit a DA. The DA is secondary to zoning.


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## spog (4/7/14)

jimmy86 said:


> Thanks Scotty, happy to be corrected.
> And spog Drs orders is doc and not dr smurto as far as I know. Doc was the cuckoo's nest brewer where he takes over the brewery ... In a sense.
> Warning I was wrong earlier in this thread


Got the doctor/ doc bit right ,well ballpark at least .


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