# I Am A Water Waster



## Pumpy (31/10/07)

Following Darren asking me how much water I use , I thought about it 

1)Rinse the brewery out before I mash (20L) 
2)Wash it down after I mash (20L)
3) sterilise the fermenter before use (4L)
4) soak the fermenter in napisan after use (30L)
5) sterilise the filterand tubes before use (3L)
6) rinse the filter after use (3 L)
7)soak the filter in napisan (5L)
8)rinse the keg out (6 L)
9)soak the keg in napisan (20 L)
10)Rinse the keg and beer lines (10 L)
11) rinse the beer glass before and after each beer (1L)
12) forgot cleaning with napisan two NoChill cubes (60 L)
13) rinsing No chill cubes (10L)
14) evaporation from kettle (15 L)


Would that be right to make a 40 liter batch I use *207 L* water to get a beer into the glass I dont use a chiller that would add more ???

That does not include the water in the beer which is 40 L so that is a total of 247 Litres for a 40 litre batch 


Pumpy , 

I am Gob smacked !!!!


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## Guest Lurker (31/10/07)

Hey Pumpy. A lot more than 40 l in a 40 l batch of beer, you need to add back your evaporation and your losses to trub.

Oops, you already thought about evap at No 15


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## Pumpy (31/10/07)

Guest Lurker said:


> Hey Pumpy. A lot more than 40 l in a 40 l batch of beer, you need to add back your evaporation and your losses to trub.



No 14 GL


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## Pumpy (31/10/07)

missed cleaning the second keg thats another 20L

pumpy


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## Screwtop (31/10/07)

Really don't think we have to worry Pump, your not exporting your beer like the big guys. Don't worry too much about the water positive imports including wine and beer from countries that have limitless supplies of water, but exporting our precious water overseas in megalitres each year inside bottles and foodstuffs is really stupid for such a dry continent. At least your water remains within your local system.


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## big d (31/10/07)

This surely must rate as a red rag to a bull post if Darren lays eyes on it.If it blows out it will be a short thread.Mind you some very interesting additions of water usage to birth 40 litres of beer Pumpy.
Being on the land and relying on tank water every drop counts so thank you mate my brain is now ticking over some more with water usage.Brew day tomorrow so will be very interesting water wise.
P.S i reckon you use too much water.

Cheers
Big D


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (31/10/07)

Pumpy - If you used a chiller of some sort, you could collect the water used and re-use it for cleaning on the next brew, instead of only getting one use from your cleaning water.


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## Keifer (31/10/07)

Get a rain water tank


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## big d (31/10/07)

When i do the plumbing i will be using my 9000litre shed tank for my wort chiller and recircing it back.This summer i hope to take a few samples and temp readings on those hot WA days to see what variance i get.
All going well the no chill method will get the flick.

Cheers
Big D
(Turning green)


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## Zizzle (31/10/07)

Most of my cleanup water gets dumped into the washing machine.

Only really dirty water gets dumped on the garden.

I think the commercial guys have a ridiculous water usage rate as well though pumpy.


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## AUHEAMIC (31/10/07)

Pumpy
Thats only 2 loads of washing water (in an upright washer). A load of washing gets done every second day at or house. I brew once or twice a month.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (31/10/07)

Peels said:


> Pumpy
> Thats only 2 loads of washing water (in an upright washer). A load of washing gets done every second day at or house. I brew once or twice a month.



I agree. You don't brew enough, Peels.

The way I read you, Pumpy, you're using the volume of a container to wash it. I reckon I probably use around half that by spending a little extra time. I use the water I save to rinse and wash all my bottles, though...


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## AUHEAMIC (31/10/07)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I agree. You don't brew enough, Peels.


If I was single it would be the other way around.


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## redbeard (31/10/07)

I re-use my napisan soak water numerous times thru cubes & fermentors. i transfer most to the next then just throw out the dregs with the gunk in it. I only use a litre or so of hot water to clean kegs. i use the hot water left in the hlt to help clean up after a brewday, initially by pumping it around, to clean the pump.

I dont waste water but also im not anal about using it. Im guessing most water used in my household is in showers not brewing.

my current water bill is divided into:
sewerage $102
stormwater drainage $11
water $2

lol


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## kabooby (1/11/07)

But Pumpy,

What about the positive impact of drinking 40L of beer instead of 40L of water  

Kabooby


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## goatherder (1/11/07)

It sounds a lot Pumpy but I think your water usage is pretty good. I hear that commercial breweries have water usage in the order of 10-15 litres for every litre of beer.


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## fraser_john (1/11/07)

Pumpy,

re your napisan soaks......when soaking kegs, carboys, cubes, I will always re-use the napisan mix about three to four times, just add an extra teaspoon of napisan each time, makes 20 litres go a long way!!!


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## TasChris (1/11/07)

Screwtop said:


> exporting our precious water overseas in megalitres each year inside bottles and foodstuffs is really stupid for such a dry continent.




Perhaps we could dehydrate our beer, milk, wine etc exports!!  

Water useage is not much of a concern if you have water tanks (and an average rainfall of about 1300mm) and use the waste water wisely.
The water use footprint would be much less of a concern than our power use with all our pumps, heaters, fridges, cool rooms etc.
I stop worring about it after 2 or 3 sips


Chris


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## eric8 (1/11/07)

fraser_john said:


> Pumpy,
> 
> re your napisan soaks......when soaking kegs, carboys, cubes, I will always re-use the napisan mix about three to four times, just add an extra teaspoon of napisan each time, makes 20 litres go a long way!!!



That's a great idea to re-use the napisan mix. I had never thought of that. I usually wash everything on my front lawn after brewing, so it sort of isn't wasted as much.
eric


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## bconnery (1/11/07)

It might sound like a lot but as pointed out when you consider how much water other frequent processes use it isn't that much. Plus you get beer at the end of it...
I very much believe it should all be about how much you use overall anyway. 
The council here is pushing this 'Target 140'. That is 140L per person per day. 
Well I have a pool and I make beer and have a child which means more frequent washing and we are still at around 100, sometimes even less. 
I re-use a lot of the water involved in the brewing process for watering, filling the pool etc. etc.


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## ozpowell (1/11/07)

I keep all my sanitization water in buckets when I'm done with it and we use it instead of flushing the toilets for the following couple of days.


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## braufrau (1/11/07)

bconnery said:


> It might sound like a lot but as pointed out when you consider how much water other frequent processes use it isn't that much. Plus you get beer at the end of it...
> I very much believe it should all be about how much you use overall anyway.
> The council here is pushing this 'Target 140'. That is 140L per person per day.
> Well I have a pool and I make beer and have a child which means more frequent washing and we are still at around 100, sometimes even less.
> I re-use a lot of the water involved in the brewing process for watering, filling the pool etc. etc.




The libs in SA have a "19 point plan" for water.
One of the points is people who save water get credits they can use later or trade. 
They also want to reintroduce excess water charges.
I think this is a great idea because it will get most people thinking about how to save water.
I remember how hysterical my grandmother used to get at the thought of an excess water bill.
And in the latest Organic Gardener there were a lot of letters on the restrictions and the consenss was 
gardeners would go without a shower if they could water their plants.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (1/11/07)

braufrau said:


> And in the latest Organic Gardener there were a lot of letters on the restrictions and the consenss was
> gardeners would go without a shower if they could water their plants.



Hmmmm... Interesting.

Consider - for the sake of argument - that I live next door to a gardener and that their gardening takes *less* water than my brewing. But, there are water restriction rules in place that say my next door neighbour can't pursue their hobby because it uses too much water.

Good thing I don't like my hypothetical neighbour too much.


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## domonsura (1/11/07)

Yep, the rules are screwed. The watering rules are ridiculous, I see people throwing bucket after bucket after bucket of water on their lawns and 'that's OK because they are using a bucket' which IMO is probably the least efficient and most destructive way to water gardens.
As far as I'm concerned, excess water charges are the way to go. Stay under the limit for your household, and the water police leave you the hell alone.

This 'even numbered houses on Saturday and odd number houses on Sunday' rule that is in place here is such rubbish I can't believe it. Every weekend I see people all up and down the street blasting their bloody flower gardens/lawns with stupid amounts of water, 90% of which runs off. And yet I'm not allowed to install drippers or weeper hoses underground in my vege garden and slowly drip feed my FOOD SUPPLY with 20 litres throughout the course of the day..........cmon pollies, get your heads out of your orifices!!!!
The lack of common sense being imposed on us all by councils that have no damn idea about water conservation is astounding !


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## danman (1/11/07)

braufrau said:


> And in the latest Organic Gardener there were a lot of letters on the restrictions and the consenss was
> gardeners would go without a shower if they could water their plants.




we also have to realise where braufrau lives. i grew up in that town and i used to live with my plants in the room next door! but then i guess that type of irrigation setup is banned now anyway


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## domonsura (1/11/07)

danman said:


> we also have to realise where braufrau lives. i grew up in that town and i used to live with my plants in the room next door! but then i guess that type of irrigation setup is banned now anyway



:huh: eh what?


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## Lukes (1/11/07)

This is in the news today

"A man has been charged with murder after he allegedly got into a fight about water restrictions with an elderly man who was hosing his lawn"


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## devo (1/11/07)

I only use tank water for cleaning and use tap water for my hot liquor and boil additions only.


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## fraser_john (1/11/07)

Lukes said:


> This is in the news today
> 
> "A man has been charged with murder after he allegedly got into a fight about water restrictions with an elderly man who was hosing his lawn"



Totally off topic....but

What the hell is wrong with people these days? 
"Relax....have a home brew" - Charlie​
Then call the water police and have the guy fined! Don't "allegedly" kick his head in!


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## bconnery (1/11/07)

fraser_john said:


> Totally off topic....but
> 
> What the hell is wrong with people these days?
> "Relax....have a home brew" - Charlie​
> Then call the water police and have the guy fined! Don't "allegedly" kick his head in!


Plus it turns out that apparently the guy wasn't breaking restrictions at all according to what I read...


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## Stuster (1/11/07)

Lukes said:


> This is in the news today
> 
> "A man has been charged with murder after he allegedly got into a fight about water restrictions with an elderly man who was hosing his lawn"



In Sylvania Waters!


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## fraser_john (1/11/07)

bconnery said:


> Plus it turns out that apparently the guy wasn't breaking restrictions at all according to what I read...



Yeah, so a simple phone call would have saved a whole lot of grief for two families


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## Darren (1/11/07)

Hey Pumpy,

I use about 350 litres to make 2x65 litre batches. I find that double batches reduces the clean-up water significantly. I collect all my chiller water and re-use for washing

cheers

Darren


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## Whistlingjack (1/11/07)

The rule of thumb for commercial beer production is 6 litres water demand for every litre of beer produced.

Of this, 3.8 litres is considered waste water, the other 2.2 litres comprises the beer, evaporation losses and containment in spent grains, trub and fiter materials.

I probably use about 5 litres per litre of beer at home.

WJ


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## domonsura (1/11/07)

Very sad, but I suspect that overall, that's not the only headline we're going to see regarding fights over water in times to come...........I bet there's some serious stuff going on over fences in some parts of rural Australia as it is - and it's a whole hell of a lot more important out there than in the city.
I will admit though, the mindlessness of people bothering to water a patch of grass that they then cut and throw on the compost heap every couple of weeks does annoy me more than a little. Don't think I'd attack an elderley gentleman over it, but if there's a place to start the water education process, that's as good a place as any...it's not hard really.

Just do what our own body does with it's fluids. If it's not vital to survival, it's the first to get cut off from the juice. I'd rather go bald than die of thirst.


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## afromaiko (1/11/07)

This is making beer we are talking about... running water straight down the drain would be wasting it. It'll come back around again eventually anyway.


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## BoilerBoy (1/11/07)

domonsura said:


> Yep, the rules are screwed. The watering rules are ridiculous, I see people throwing bucket after bucket after bucket of water on their lawns and 'that's OK because they are using a bucket' which IMO is probably the least efficient and most destructive way to water gardens.
> As far as I'm concerned, excess water charges are the way to go. Stay under the limit for your household, and the water police leave you the hell alone.
> 
> This 'even numbered houses on Saturday and odd number houses on Sunday' rule that is in place here is such rubbish I can't believe it. Every weekend I see people all up and down the street blasting their bloody flower gardens/lawns with stupid amounts of water, 90% of which runs off. And yet I'm not allowed to install drippers or weeper hoses underground in my vege garden and slowly drip feed my FOOD SUPPLY with 20 litres throughout the course of the day..........cmon pollies, get your heads out of your orifices!!!!
> The lack of common sense being imposed on us all by councils that have no damn idea about water conservation is astounding !



Totally agree

I would also add that if they are serious about saving water

1. Before they start lifting the price they have to ditch this incomprehensible
Water to property value. A guy on radio recently sold his large properrty downsized to a smaller house in an upmarket area and now uses much less water, but pays more than what he did before :blink: 

2. Having removed water/ property value, lift the price to a standard unit value on a user pay system
with a designated point where excess cuts in and you then pay more

This would put the control, the savings and the choice back to the consumer.

But instead the SA government is actually investigating who legally owns the water once it hits your roof
so they can charge you for storage of water on properties as well :huh: 

A tax on the air we breathe surely cant be far away now


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## KoNG (1/11/07)

Pumpy said:


> Following Darren asking me how much water I use , I thought about it
> 
> 1)Rinse the brewery out before I mash (20L)
> 2)Wash it down after I mash (20L)
> ...




WOW....  
Pumpy surely you realise you dont "need" to use that much... as others have pointed out.
Fermenters can be cleaned after use with 1-2L of hot napisan and a soft brush. Then i just add another 1-2L of hot napisan and swirl/shake everynow and then. 
same with iodophor, 1-2L for a keg/ferm etc
60 Litres for cleaning 2 cubes..!??! same as Ferms, i do a first up clean of 2 litres hot napisan (then dump that) and repeat, the second sol'n stays in the cube until next time. When i go to use that no chill cube again, the 2litres of napisan goes into a spare fermenter for future use, quick rinse, then 1-2 L of iodophor... which gets dumped into the waiting mash tun for cleaning etc.
I reckon you could more than halve that usage, pretty easily. IF you wanted to  

It may help reduce the need for the desal plant.. and its shitty infrastructure ruining the ecology of Botany Bay.! but i'll leave that convo for the conservation-nerds-are-us forum... :lol:


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## domonsura (1/11/07)

BoilerBoy said:


> That's fine, I'll just start charging them for every drop that goes down the drain or evaporates from my property - it's then up to them to recover their costs from it by treating it. If I have to buy it, it belongs to me. Just because council has got first in line to take it away from my property, doesn't mean they'll get it for free.....
> 
> If they want to create this whole 'water is a commodity' bs to the extent of charging me to store water that I make the effort to catch, then it must be able to work both ways and I charge them for the water they catch from my property....


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## warrenlw63 (1/11/07)

This thread has given me a definite view of how much water I could be possibly wasting. OTOH I embrace my brewing at the expense of showers and wearing the same clothes too often. :lol: 

I've also cut down to the bone the amount rinsing I do with cubes and fermenters.

For the people who wanna argue beyond that point... This pic's for you.  

Warren -


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## Pumpy (1/11/07)

Thanks ,Everyone has been so helpful with ideas to reduce my water consumption.

Some made me feel more guilty than I was already feeling when I saw how much water I was using .

When I get home I will summarise the best ideas .


Pumpy


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## TidalPete (1/11/07)

Being where I am there are no water restrictions ATM compared with Brizzy's level 5 (????). This does not prevent me from trying to do the right thing however & although I chill, all the water used chilling is then used for cleaning up afterwards & the remainder gets chucked on the pot plants.
I am lucky enough to have all my lawns & gardens watered by my bore & as I am the "Last Port of Call" so to speak before the water table leaches out into the blue Pacific I think that I can justify an increased electricity bill & the slight extra global warming it produces.  
Have occasionally thought of running the chiller off the bore but as the pressure is much, much, more than mains pressure I really haven't worried about it too much. I know I need some kind of pressure reducer so has anyone got any ideas how I could do this CHEAPLY?

TP :beer:


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## MAH (1/11/07)

Pumpy said:


> 1)Rinse the brewery out before I mash (20L)
> 2)Wash it down after I mash (20L)



If you have washed it down after using it why do you have to wash it down again before you use it again? 



Pumpy said:


> 4) soak the fermenter in napisan after use (30L)
> 8)rinse the keg out (6 L)
> 9)soak the keg in napisan (20 L)
> 10)Rinse the keg and beer lines (10 L)
> ...



As others have pointed out, why are you _filling_ the kegs, fermenters and cubes with napisan. You can clean any of these with a few litres, which will also reduce the amount needed to rinse. Why not use the water from one cube to then clean the next. 

No reassuring words from me......you need to seriously look at the amount of water you're using (wasting).

Cheers
MAH


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## bonj (1/11/07)

braufrau said:


> ...the consensus was gardeners would go without a shower if they could water their plants.


I'd go without a shower on brewday.


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## troywhite (1/11/07)

big d said:


> This surely must rate as a red rag to a bull post if Darren lays eyes on it.



I doubt it. Pumpy's water usage is much higher than mine just from looking at what he does, so you can't tar everyone with the same brush.
I use much less than that in cleaning and rinsing. Adjusting his figures I'd say I use around 120L for a 40L batch.


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## Zizzle (1/11/07)

or do the cleaning of the gear in the shower


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## Cracka (1/11/07)

Zizzle said:


> or do the cleaning of the gear in the shower





HeHeHe. I have a confession to make h34r:


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## domonsura (1/11/07)

:lol: geez guys, remember there's a limit to the amount of love you can show your brewery without looking weird.....:lol: 
I can only imagine the look on the wife's face as she walks into the bathroom........ :unsure:


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## newguy (1/11/07)

domonsura said:


> I can only imagine the look on the wife's face as she walks into the bathroom........ :unsure:



Or the look on your mate's face when he fishes a short-n-curly out of his teeth after setting down his beer.   

I hope your equipment is well rinsed. Brewing equipment.


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## Vlad the Pale Aler (1/11/07)

I don't know if this next bit needs to be a new thread, Mods?

My latest water bill covering 181 days, Jan to Jul, was 147 kl.
3 adults in the house, and like Pumpy I take a bath every week whether I need it or not.
I probably brew 50l about every 3-4 weeks

How much have you used?


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## pokolbinguy (1/11/07)

AHHH the luxuries of living on a farm......

What falls on the roof goes in the tank..... if we use to much we run out... simple as that.... you learn pretty quick how to not waste water. Luckily we have a big house which instead of being two stories is split into two buildings on one level... doubling the catchment area... so our tank is rarely empty (once every few years....haven't paid for water for maybe 3 years...maybe more)....and god damn doesn't is suck when it is... we have to BUY water... and TOWN water at that YUK....it even feels different. 

ahh farming.... just love it.

Pok


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## pint of lager (1/11/07)

Town water, ewwww. Never drink the muck, let alone brew with it. Haven't paid for water for 7 years. Buy another tank Pok.

No-one has yet mentioned malting, which probably uses 3-4 litres per kilo of grain.

Another great water saving device is a pressure washer.


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## Pumpy (1/11/07)

pint of lager said:


> Town water, ewwww. Never drink the muck, let alone brew with it. Haven't paid for water for 7 years. Buy another tank Pok.
> 
> No-one has yet mentioned malting, which probably uses 3-4 litres per kilo of grain.
> 
> Another great water saving device is a pressure washer.




Thats going too far POL !!!

I did not count 50 Litres of water flushing the toilet after drinking the 20 Litres of beer .

Pumpy


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## pokolbinguy (1/11/07)

pint of lager said:


> Town water, ewwww. Never drink the muck, let alone brew with it. Haven't paid for water for 7 years. Buy another tank Pok.
> 
> No-one has yet mentioned malting, which probably uses 3-4 litres per kilo of grain.
> 
> Another great water saving device is a pressure washer.




SEVEN YEARS..... niiiiiicccccceeeee..... clearly it rains too much where you are  ... O well... $70 every 3 or 4 years or more is pretty good for water  

Very glad I dont have to worry about crappy town water in my beer 

Pok


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## bugwan (1/11/07)

The problem with excess water charges is determining the size of the household. Obviously it's unfair to impose a set restriction on every house, as a family of six uses more than me and my fiance. But how do you work out how big a household is? What's a fair water use level? What's a fair price? Bloody hell, there's plenty of water on earth, it pisses down in some places and it's dry in others, surely we can sort out a solution that will allow us to maintain some sort of lifestyle (ie keep gardens, brew) without resorting to dobbing in neighbours or paying fines...

Maybe if the petroleum companies didn't wash their massive storage vessels out with drinking water? Or companies were required to provide half-flush toilets ONLY? The earth's surface is something like 70% water (albeit salty)....surely we're smart enough to dig ourselves out of this hole...?

/vent. :wacko: :angry:


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## pokolbinguy (1/11/07)

bugwan said:


> The problem with excess water charges is determining the size of the household. Obviously it's unfair to impose a set restriction on every house, as a family of six uses more than me and my fiance. But how do you work out how big a household is? What's a fair water use level? What's a fair price? Bloody hell, there's plenty of water on earth, it pisses down in some places and it's dry in others, surely we can sort out a solution that will allow us to maintain some sort of lifestyle (ie keep gardens, brew) without resorting to dobbing in neighbours or paying fines...
> 
> Maybe if the petroleum companies didn't wash their massive storage vessels out with drinking water? Or companies were required to provide half-flush toilets ONLY? The earth's surface is something like 70% water (albeit salty)....surely we're smart enough to dig ourselves out of this hole...?
> 
> /vent. :wacko: :angry:




One word - "De-sal".


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## Zizzle (1/11/07)

pokolbinguy said:


> One word - "De-sal".



The only problem is that desal needs lots of energy. Which we get from burning dinosaur bones (coal), which releases all that Carbon back into the atmosphere, which warms the planet, which means more drought, which means less fresh water, which means failed barely and hop crops, which means importing more from far away, which means buring more oil, which means more Carbon back into the atmosphere, which warms the planet, which makes our beer fridges and airconditioners run more, which need lots of energy, which we get from burning coal, which releases Carbon back into the atmosphere, which warms the planet, which brings more drought, which makes our councils bring in water restrictions, which they advertise on paper made by using lots of water, which make pumpy feels guilty for using water, which makes him post this thread ... where were we again?


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## Brewtus (2/11/07)

Pumpy,
did you count the 3l in the glass you drink when you brew?


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## fraser_john (2/11/07)

Pumpy said:


> Thats going too far POL !!!
> 
> I did not count 50 Litres of water flushing the toilet after drinking the 20 Litres of beer .
> 
> Pumpy



:lol: You need to plant a lemon/lime/other citru tree. They love being, er, utilised for toilet flush savings.......


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## braufrau (2/11/07)

Now this just makes me cross.

top ten vic. water users

That makes it pretty obvious where the state should be focussing water reducing efforts for the biggest returns ..
shopping centres, jails and hospitals!


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## bconnery (2/11/07)

braufrau said:


> Now this just makes me cross.
> 
> top ten vic. water users
> 
> ...


Oh no, brau frau, you've got it all wrong. It is never business at fault. Just us pesky home users!! :angry: 
Certainly that's they way they are trying to make us feel here in Brisbane...
I've heard claims of 70% of water usage being by homes which I really struggle to believe. 
As I've said though, no guilty conscience from me due to the small size of the bar on our rates water usage graph...

I have said many times I have an easy solution to Brisbane's water issues. 
Stop brewing XXXX!!!


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## Airgead (2/11/07)

braufrau said:


> That makes it pretty obvious where the state should be focussing water reducing efforts for the biggest returns ..
> shopping centres, jails and hospitals!



Shopping centers I agree with but when it comes to hospitals, concerned as I am over water usage, I'd still rather the place was nice and clean in case I ever end up in one. Those doctors can wash their hands as often as they like.

On the bewing side, I am somewhat smug about the fact that not one drop of town water has gone into my brewing since I had my tank installed 2 years ago. Its amazing how frugal you get with water when its your water. I re-circulate my chiller water back to the tank so that takes nothing. Fermenters and kegs are washed out with a couple of L and a spoonfull of napisan then another 1-2 L of iodophor solution swilled around to sanitise. Even the clean up water goes on the vege garden. I let the iodophor go off in a bucket then tip that on the garden as well. The only thing that goes in the drain is the napisan. I'm not sure what that would do to my veges. 

Cheers
Dave


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## tangent (2/11/07)

> Those doctors can wash their hands as often as they like.



Rant on!

There's signs everywhere in hospitals instructing people to wash their hands before and after visiting anyone. I've NEVER seen ANYONE wash their hands visiting a hospital other than myself. I'm not a clean freak (Domonsura's seen my beer fridge!) but the rules are the rules and it makes good sense. Unfortunately nowadays people decide which rules to follow and which to ignore. (Just look at idiot SA drivers. They've even decided the white lines dividing lanes are optional.) Then they whinge when a loved one get's a bloody infection and has to spend another freakin 5 weeks in hospital fighting it off! Just after they've patted the dog, cleaned up the kids spew, pottered around in the garden, then gone in to visit someone and touched every door handle, fitting and fixture!
Eeedyots!

Rant off!


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## braufrau (2/11/07)

Do you know what would make me dash out and buy a tank right this very minute?
If there were credits (like I mentioned before) for the water you don't use for whatever reason,
that you can trade.
In winter I could be self sufficient in water with only a 2000l tank but its lot of money to install
and plumb so what's the point if I still can't water my garden in summer?

Stupid government!


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## antains (2/11/07)

I was lamenting all the water I wasted to get back into brewing.

While I'm becoming superstitious about the effectiveness of sodium metabisulphate, does anyone know what this would do to the garden?

I'm leaning towards household bleach for the next clean, but this surely is a plant killer... 

Ant.


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## drsmurto (2/11/07)

Interesting read.

I recently moved to a place with a rainwater tank. I use that for brewing, cleaning etc and what gets used then goes on the lawn, except the one shot residue which kills lawn so goes on any pesky weeds i find.

As for water usage charges, we arent being charged whats it worth and yes, any laws to change this will only hurt those in the lower socio-economic groups. I have another tank on the way with the aim of being able to turn off the mains asap. Not everyone has the room nor money to do this. But i will bet large that the cost of water and the restrictions placed on its use will get worse, not better. 

What i can say after reading all of your comments is that i have a warm fuzzy feeling hearing how much effort you are all going to limit your water usage in brewing. You should all be proud of yourselves. ^_^ 

Cheers and environmentally sustainable beers
DrSmurto


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## bindi (2/11/07)

Used my chiller today B) it's been 40+ brews since I used it, once I got rid of the wildlife living it now [spiders etc].
Used a pre chiller siting in an ice bath before the main chiller [9M the other 18M] recovered enough water to do a double load of washing, fill 3x 25L and 1x15L cubes for the next brews 1x 15L cube used for camping and enough water to wash all the gear, seems a lot of water [and time] <_< I will go back to NC but just wanted to see how much I wasted in the past. 

BUT, the yeast is pitched on the same day.


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## Airgead (2/11/07)

antains said:


> I was lamenting all the water I wasted to get back into brewing.
> 
> While I'm becoming superstitious about the effectiveness of sodium metabisulphate, does anyone know what this would do to the garden?
> 
> ...



Sodium met is pretty volatile from memory so if you let it sit in a bucket overnight it should degrade and be safe for your plants in the morning. I stopped using it ages ago as its really not much good as a sanitiser (its also really bad for the lungs). Its more an antioxidant with some slight antimicrobial activity. Bleach is more effective but needs rinsing (and is not much good for the plants). I've found iodiophor pretty good and seems plant safe if you leave it overnight to go off. I must confess that most of the time the iodophor goes on the flowers rater then the vegies... aussie soils are pretty iodine poor but I don't think the family needs quite that much iodine in the diet.

Cheers
Dave


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## antains (2/11/07)

Airgead said:


> Sodium met is pretty volatile from memory...(its also really bad for the lungs). Bleach is more effective but needs rinsing (and is not much good for the plants). I've found iodiophor pretty good and seems plant safe ...
> Cheers
> Dave




Thanks, Dave.
That confirms my suspicion/superstition about sodium met - only used it once, before this week, and that was my only corrupted brew (out of 6 or 7). And this week, I've had some strange activity.

So, I'm heading back to bleach for the next batch.

I'll give iodophor a crack.
Self-sustainability, here we come  

Cheers,
Ant.


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## Darren (29/2/08)

Hey,

Finally got my water bill (I really did not want it)

My usage for the second half of 2007 was.....................103 kilolitres (average 572 litres/day). I don't know if this is good or bad? Seems like alot!

I have a 65,000 litre pool and 900 square metre property (largely dead garden), two kids (girls) that spend 5/14 nights with me and I am a counterflow-chiller.

What is everyone elses?

cheers

Darren


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## ozpowell (29/2/08)

Darren said:


> Hey,
> 
> Finally got my water bill (I really did not want it)
> 
> ...



Up until recently, people on the Gold Coast were limited to 140L per person per day of domestic consumption. This limit was strictly enforced by the SEQ Water Commission. Based on the above, you are using more than double the allowable Gold Coast limit per day.  

With recent rain, we have earned a temporary reprieve from water restrictions, however that won't last long....

FWIW, I also have a 60,000L pool, 2 kids, a dog and a wife. We use between 300L and 400L per day. I use an immersion chiller connected to a spear-pump supply.

Cheers,
Michael.


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## therook (29/2/08)

Darren said:


> Hey,
> 
> Finally got my water bill (I really did not want it)
> 
> ...



Darren,

That seems like a hell of a lot of water to use a day.

I'm on Tank water so i have no idea what my consumption is, all i know is i never have to buy water but i do have 16,000 gallons of water to play with

Rook


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## Hutch (29/2/08)

Small garden, wife and 1 child, and we typically use 200Ltrs a day.
I'm confounded how anyone can use 500Ltrs a day, whether or not they're a homebrewer.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (29/2/08)

Hutch said:


> I'm confounded how anyone can use 500Ltrs a day, whether or not they're a homebrewer.



Really, really thirsty?


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## MAH (29/2/08)

Darren said:


> My usage for the second half of 2007 was.....................103 kilolitres (average 572 litres/day). I don't know if this is good or bad? Seems like alot!



That is a lot.

For the last 12 month period, our average daily use was 180 litres, or 90 litres per person. We don't have a pool or a garden but the extra 143,000 litres per year that you're using can't be soley attributed to these factors.

Although your 65,000 is equivalent to my total household water use for 12 months  .

Cheers
MAH


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## drsmurto (29/2/08)

Darren said:


> Hey,
> 
> Finally got my water bill (I really did not want it)
> 
> ...




Might be time to call a plumber in Darren - i suspect you may have a leak somewhere. Toilets tend to be the guilty party in that regard. 572L/day is pretty huge considering you cant use mains water to fill pools (unless its passed thru the chiller and then its called recycling  ).


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## chovain (29/2/08)

Darren said:


> I have a 65,000 litre pool and 900 square metre property (largely dead garden), two kids (girls) that spend 5/14 nights with me and I am a counterflow-chiller.



Have you considered no-chilling? 

But seriously, as Smurto says, I'd be getting someone in to check for leaks. Are you generally careful with your water usage?


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## Duff (29/2/08)

Mark Chovain said:


> Have you considered no-chilling?



Gold Mark


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## Darren (1/3/08)

I am wondering how much of my water usage is do to the solar hot water system. On really hot days there is always a constant dribble from the overflow. On days that are 40C + the whole system empties itself (250 litres) I am told because it has gotten too hot (above the temperature legally allowed for hot water).

Does anyone know about solar hot water systems and whether this is normal?

cheers

Darren


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## bonj (1/3/08)

I'm not sure about your setup, but my solar hot water on circulates the tank water through the solar array when it needs heating, so it's not constantly recirculating the water. Mine is a hybrid setup with a solar array on the roof, and similar to a standard electric hot water tank on the side of the house.


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## winkle (1/3/08)

You need a plumber Darren, my last quarter water usage went through the roof - bloody toilet overflow cut-off seal!!


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## barry2 (1/3/08)

Darren
I'd turn off every tap on the property and then check to see at what rate the water meter is ticking over.I discovered a slow dribble from the toilet cistern that way.


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## Doogiechap (1/3/08)

Hmmmm,
We used 109Kl over the past 6 months. Interesting, we are under our suburbs average use of 135Kl with a bore and 214Kl without a bore  . (we have a bore).
2 Kids no pool.... Hmmm my plate chiller is still an intregal part of my brewery and process but I'll look at some alterantive water storage for chilling/ garden use.

Cheers
Damp Doug


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## Darren (2/3/08)

Hey,

I have looked at the meter and it is not running all the time. My pool is filled by the roof (so its like a big rainwater tank). 

Apart from Bonj, no-one has addressed my question about the solar got water system. On hot days my system drips constantly. On very hot days it dumps the whole storage tank (yes, I have seen it more than once, 15 minutes of full-on boiling water).

So is this normal? Am i being fooled into thinking that solar the be all and end all or is it a trade-off for cheap power and increased water consumption?

Bonj, happy to take a photo of it if you wish. Looks like a water heater on its side with a couple of glass panels in front of it. It gets massive sun exposure.

cheers

Darren


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## SpillsMostOfIt (2/3/08)

A mate of mine has a solar hw heater with instantaneous gas boost. I saw his water usage a while ago and it was really very little.

Now, I just *know* that if his hw system dumped its payload when the weather got too hot, I would have heard about it - he is just that sort of guy. He cracked a spaz having to rinse out a couple of fermenters and a hop sock during a recent project and I ended up bringing them home to clean them.


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## oldbugman (2/3/08)

Darren said:


> 103 kilolitres (average 572 litres/day). I don't know if this is good or bad? Seems like alot!



You prompted me to check my last bill, having bought a house ~6months ago. I have two quarters to compare.

first quarter was 32kl 333lpd
2nd quarter was 48kl 527lpd

Now during the first quarter we had a freddy freeloader come stay with us, so I'd base that on having 2.5 adults in the house for that period.
2nd quarter we filled a ~7,000L pool.. and then refilled half of it when it got a leak.

Based on that(without pool or freeloader) me and my partner would be pretty close to the QLD cut off of useage per day.


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## Darren (2/3/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> A mate of mine has a solar hw heater with instantaneous gas boost. I saw his water usage a while ago and it was really very little.
> 
> Now, I just *know* that if his hw system dumped its payload when the weather got too hot, I would have heard about it - he is just that sort of guy. He cracked a spaz having to rinse out a couple of fermenters and a hop sock during a recent project and I ended up bringing them home to clean them.




Spills,

I am like that too. I am shocked by my water usage. I cannot see where 500 litres a day comes from. I wondered about the solar system as it really dumps the whole lot if the temp is over 40C. It drips constantly on hot days. It is one year old.

Would really like a solar plumber comment on this and how i can avoid it

cheers

Darren


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## MVZOOM (2/3/08)

Darren said:


> Spills,
> 
> I am like that too. I am shocked by my water usage. I cannot see where 500 litres a day comes from. I wondered about the solar system as it really dumps the whole lot if the temp is over 40C. It drips constantly on hot days. It is one year old.
> 
> ...



Darren, if it's that bad, it's worth spending the $$ and getting someone to come out and check things through. 500L per day is a lot of water, ROI on having it checked out won't be long.

Cheers - Mike


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## bonj (3/3/08)

Hey Darren,

From your description, I know what type of solar system you're talking about. Unfortunately, what I know about hot water systems you could carve on a grain of rice with a shovel. My system basically looks like a standard electric system, with 2 extra insulated water pipes going into it. They are the recirculate pipes to the solar bank on the roof. The tank ( and I believe most tanks) has a pressure relief valve that will dump hot water if the pressure gets too high. Maybe that's your problem? I agree that a solar plumber might be a good investment. It doesn't sound right that it dumps so often. My usage is just under the "target 140" at around 135, so mine can't be dumping much if at all, although I'd say the Qld sun isn't very comparable direct heat wise to SA. We don't get the string of 35+ days that you seem to get down there (last time I lived there anyway (15 years ago)).


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## drsmurto (3/3/08)

Darren

I have a solar hot water system too and it also leaks. Never seen it dump the entire contents but there is always dripping. Replaced seals in outdoor dunny as i thought it was the culprit for my water usage excesses but maybe the hot water system is leaking all day? 

Environmentally friendly they told me ......grrrrr.....

Cheers
DrSmurto


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## PostModern (3/3/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Environmentally friendly they told me ......grrrrr.....



Improperly set up, I would say. It should only circulate water thru the collectors when storage temp is below set temp. Dumping the entire storage to prevent overheating is a joke. There are these things, been around a lot longer than solar hot water... ummm, yes, they're called valves.

I am not a hot water expert...


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## SpillsMostOfIt (3/3/08)

PostModern said:


> There are these things ... [snip] ... called valves.



Sounds intriguing. Where would I get one of these things? Could I use it in my brewery?


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## PostModern (3/3/08)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Sounds intriguing. Where would I get one of these things? Could I use it in my brewery?



Sounds like Darren might have some malfunctioning ones on the market soon.


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## drsmurto (3/3/08)

PostModern said:


> Improperly set up, I would say. It should only circulate water thru the collectors when storage temp is below set temp. Dumping the entire storage to prevent overheating is a joke. There are these things, been around a lot longer than solar hot water... ummm, yes, they're called valves.
> 
> I am not a hot water expert...




Pomo, yep, i know it shouldnt do this but i am the most useless DIY bloke on the planet. SO until i can find a plumber who isnt scared off driving up into the hills - its leaking. The runoff is at least keeping a small portion of my lawn alive......

Would be scary to measure just how much water is being wasted on a daily basis.


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## Fatgodzilla (3/3/08)

DrSmurto said:


> Pomo, yep, i know it shouldnt do this but i am the most useless DIY bloke on the planet.



I can see another competition here - who is the most useless DIY bloke on the planet. :blink: Send pictures !!!

At least you're a scientist !!! :unsure:


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## drsmurto (3/3/08)

I could post pics of the 'hole' i drilled/cut/chiselled in the bar for my font and the hole in the side of the keg fridge. I think if you gave a 3 year old the same equipment they could have done a better job!

And when i said 'replaced seals in the dunny' that should have read - 'my partner replaced the seals' as she is the one who has the tool kit, i didnt own a hammer when we met  


FGZ, my skills are in the lab, not in the shed..... h34r:


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## Darren (3/3/08)

PostModern said:


> Sounds like Darren might have some malfunctioning ones on the market soon.




PM,

I dont think the valve is faulty. I tell you how it happens. The tank fills and heats on a really hot day. Water sits there getting hotter in the "lines" that are on top of the silver coated backing. Someone in the house uses some hot water allowing the super-hot water into the tank to replace what was just used, then the valve opens up and dumps hot water until the temp is below the maximum allowable temperature. The installer told me it was a safety valve that blows off if the water inside gets over 65? When I asked him how to stop it he said....Simple, just use more water in the morning :angry: 

On warm to hot days (30+) the line drips constantly. It doesnt do that if the weather is not so hot (less than 30).

Dr Smurto,

I put a bucket under the drip a coulpe of weeks ago. Filled it to the brim in a day

cheers

Darren


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## Fents (3/3/08)

how much did you pay and how old is the system? surley they have a 12 or 24 month warranty.


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## PostModern (3/3/08)

Darren said:


> PM,
> 
> I dont think the valve is faulty. I tell you how it happens. The tank fills and heats on a really hot day. Water sits there getting hotter in the "lines" that are on top of the silver coated backing. Someone in the house uses some hot water allowing the super-hot water into the tank to replace what was just used, then the valve opens up and dumps hot water until the temp is below the maximum allowable temperature. The installer told me it was a safety valve that blows off if the water inside gets over 65? When I asked him how to stop it he said....Simple, just use more water in the morning :angry:
> 
> ...



That can't be the designed behaviour. Surely it would just vent water from the collector when the temp or pressure was over and only run more thru to the tank when needed. Dumping your entire tank (or near enough) is absurd. Surely not all Solar hot water systems are so poorly designed?


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## bonj (3/3/08)

It's a pity it's not higher than 65. That's almost strike temperature


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## Darren (3/3/08)

Called Solaheart,

They said the valve lets go at 98 C so its getting hot up there. They are coming tomorrow to have a look at it free of charge. For 150$ I can get a "test" valve fitted that some how pushs the hot water back into the cold water pipe.

cheers

Darren


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## drsmurto (3/3/08)

Let us know how you go Darren, i reckon i will have to do the same.


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