# Caramunich Ii Substitute



## Finite (23/1/07)

Hey guys im brewing a Vienna Lager this week:

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Drops of Jupiter
Brewer: Blake Muir
Asst Brewer: Toto
Style: Vienna Lager
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.00 L 
Boil Size: 24.57 L
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 7.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 25.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.80 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 93.2 % 
0.35 kg Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 6.8 % 
28.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.40%] (60 min) Hops 10.4 IBU 
28.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.40%] (30 min) Hops 8.0 IBU 
28.30 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (15 min) Hops 6.9 IBU 
1 Pkgs German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833) Yeast-Lager  


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 5.15 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 12.87 L of water at 72.7 C 66.0 C 60 min 


Just ordering the ingredients but I dont think craftbrewer have caramunich II, can anyone sudgest Something close enough?

Always get confused with all these munich, caramunich, carafa :angry:


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## Adamt (23/1/07)

Do half Caramunich I, half Caramunich III.


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## PostModern (23/1/07)

Swap out some of the base malt for dark munich and use some light/medium crystal or carapils.


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## warrenlw63 (23/1/07)

Blake

In it's purest form Caramunich II is essentially a medium crystal malt. Maybe some Joe White Crystal 140 would be similar but not quite the same.

Anyway if it's a Vienna Lager you're making why not use all Vienna malt (or at least 50%) instead?

Something along the lines of 99% Vienna and 1% choc (or Carafa II) would work well.

Warren -


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## Finite (23/1/07)

Went with your sudestion warren (4kg vienna) but only 1kg in stock  , so i played around a bit and came up with this, hows it look?


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Drops of Jupiter
Brewer: Blake Muir
Asst Brewer: Toto
Style: Vienna Lager
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 25.68 L
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 20.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 24.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.20 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC) Grain 74.3 % 
1.00 kg Vienna Malt (6.9 EBC) Grain 17.7 % 
0.40 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (157.6 EBC) Grain 7.1 % 
0.05 kg Cara Munich III (150.0 EBC) Grain 0.9 % 
29.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.40%] (60 min) Hops 10.2 IBU 
29.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.40%] (30 min) Hops 7.8 IBU 
29.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (15 min) Hops 6.7 IBU 
1 Pkgs German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833) Yeast-Lager 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 5.65 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 14.12 L of water at 72.7 C 66.0 C 60 min 


Notes:
------


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## razz (23/1/07)

The malt comparison chart I got of this forum says a light crystal (40-50) would be comparible to Caramunich 2, but it's only someones opinion.


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## warrenlw63 (23/1/07)

Looks pretty good Blake. 8% total Crystal malts may be considered a little on the high side for some tastes though and won't give you as dry a finish as you'd probably like. I'd probably keep it around 5% max and bring the colour up with around 1% roast (choc or Carafa II).

If that's not possible just stick with your current recipe I'm sure it will still make an excellent Vienna all the same.

Warren -


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## Finite (23/1/07)

never mind Ross has come to the rescue, Vienna in stock now so ive gone with this:

Thanks for the tips Warren!! :beerbang: 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Drops of Jupiter
Brewer: Blake Muir
Asst Brewer: Toto
Style: Vienna Lager
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 25.68 L
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 19.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 25.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.00 kg Vienna Malt (6.9 EBC) Grain 76.0 % 
1.00 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC) Grain 19.0 % 
0.20 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (39.4 EBC) Grain 3.8 % 
0.06 kg Chocolate Malt (800.0 EBC) Grain 1.1 % 
29.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.40%] (60 min) Hops 10.5 IBU 
29.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.40%] (30 min) Hops 8.1 IBU 
29.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (15 min) Hops 6.9 IBU 
1 Pkgs German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833) Yeast-Lager 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 5.26 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 13.15 L of water at 72.7 C 66.0 C 60 min


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## warrenlw63 (23/1/07)

Now that's looking like a thing of beauty. Lock and load the recipe. :super: 

Warren -


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## Ross (23/1/07)

Cracked, Vac'd & Packed :super: 

cheers Ross


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## tangent (23/1/07)

you're a recipe saver Ross


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## Uncle Fester (23/1/07)

Ross said:


> Cracked, Vac'd & Packed :super:
> 
> cheers Ross




Ross,
Just for general info, what is the damage of that grain bill delivered?

Festa


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## Finite (23/1/07)

only $9.90 including a 90gm bag of hops, 10 hops pouches and 1kg of rice hulls. With the money I save it works out even or in most cases less than my LHBS. I cant actually buy much from them because they dont have a mill and only sell grains in already packed bags, my next closest was ESB but its a bit of a drive. I still get my bits and peices from my LHBS but being able to wake up walk to the door and open the box and have the grain messured and freeshly cracked and ready to go into the tun is great.

That being said, Ross wont be so cocky soon when I order the grain bill for my quadrupel B) . He will be wishing he never vac packed my sack.............of grain........ :huh: I should go.


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## winkle (2/2/07)

Rather than start a new tread, I'm after a substitute for it as well in an English Bitter similar to AndrewQLD's Bosuns Best Bitter.

4.5 kg JW Ale malt
0.4kg Caramunich 2
0.2kg Wheat Malt

Would switching it to a mid range crystal malt be a bit too much?
thanx


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## warrenlw63 (2/2/07)

Joe White Crystal 140 or Baird's Medium Crystal (preferred) will do nicely.

Warren -


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## Ross (2/2/07)

winkle said:


> Rather than start a new tread, I'm after a substitute for it as well in an English Bitter similar to AndrewQLD's Bosuns Best Bitter.
> 
> 4.5 kg JW Ale malt
> 0.4kg Caramunich 2
> ...



i'm brewing this one tomorrow - using .2kg each of CM I & III

cheers Ross


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## warrenlw63 (2/2/07)

Hey Ross

I notice you stock Baird's Dark Crystal... You tried it yet? Reckon it would be more authentic than the Caramunich.  

Warren -


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## Ross (2/2/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey Ross
> 
> I notice you stock Baird's Dark Crystal... You tried it yet? Reckon it would be more authentic than the Caramunich.
> 
> Warren -



Yes warren, but not in a bitter - I've been trying to get the caramel taste of an English bitter with little success - just tried caraaroma & it was nowhere near the mark. AndQld's bitter is probably the closest to the mark i've tried. The Dark ctystal is sweet rather than caramelly, was tempted to use straight caramalt - Any ideas, anyone?

cheers Ross


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## warrenlw63 (2/2/07)

Ross

I think the problem lies in the fact that a lot of British brewers use Brewer's Caramel which is a syrup of sorts. :unsure: 

here

Strange. I usually find the British Crystal Malts give some really good results. Particularly in conjunction with around 2% Baird's Amber Malt. This tends to ehance the nuttiness a little. :chug: 

Edit: Ross I've tried Caramalt. I find the flavour a little docile. Also the colour probably won't be where you want it unless you add a little roast as well.

Warren -


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## SpillsMostOfIt (2/2/07)

Ross said:


> Cracked, Vac'd & Packed :super:
> 
> cheers Ross



Is this a reference to Annalise Braakensiek?


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## Ross (2/2/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Ross
> 
> I think the problem lies in the fact that a lot of British brewers use Brewer's Caramel which is a syrup of sorts. :unsure:
> 
> ...



Yep, i agree with you Warren on the caramel additions. I love the british crystals, just not quite giving me what I'm after - I've actually got quite close combing with corn in the past, which is part of the recipe of my favourite Sussex bitter. My flaked maize arrives next week though, so maybe I'll hang fire till my next brew. 

cheers Ross


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## warrenlw63 (2/2/07)

Ross said:


> Yep, i agree with you Warren on the caramel additions. I love the british crystals, just not quite giving me what I'm after - I've actually got quite close combing with corn in the past, which is part of the recipe of my favourite Sussex bitter. My flaked maize arrives next week though, so maybe I'll hang fire till my next brew.
> 
> cheers Ross



Sussex eh? Not Harveys Sussex best bitter by chance? That's a lovely drop. :beerbang: 

I still think the answer for an authentic bitter lies in the dispense. I'd give my left nut for a handpump.  

If you ever decide to take the plunge and start stocking them Ross... I know what I'm gettin' next Christmas. :lol: 

Warren -


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## winkle (2/2/07)

Ross said:


> Yep, i agree with you Warren on the caramel additions. I love the british crystals, just not quite giving me what I'm after - I've actually got quite close combing with corn in the past, which is part of the recipe of my favourite Sussex bitter. My flaked maize arrives next week though, so maybe I'll hang fire till my next brew.
> 
> cheers Ross



At the risk of taking this totally off topic, what is your favourite bitter? (Batemans XXXB does it for me  ).
Anyway how does this grain bill look for a Bitter?

4.5 kg JW Ale malt
0.3 kg Bairds Cark Crystal
0.3 kg Wheat malt

(might as well use what I've already got)


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## Ross (2/2/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Sussex eh? Not Harveys Sussex best bitter by chance? That's a lovely drop. :beerbang:
> 
> I still think the answer for an authentic bitter lies in the dispense. I'd give my left nut for a handpump.
> 
> ...



Harvey's Sussex is a great drop, but was actually refering to King & Barnes Sussex (now Badgers Sussex), which was my local drop - Pub was about 50m from the brewery.
I'm not that big a fan of the handpump, in a homebrew situation, too much beer sitting in the handpump getting hot. The best ales in England are served direct from the cask rather than hand pump - when i get my coldroom in I'm going to have a couple of gravity feed naturally carbonated ales coming through the wall into my bar :chug: 

cheers Ross


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## Ross (2/2/07)

winkle said:


> At the risk of taking this totally off topic, what is your favourite bitter? (Batemans XXXB does it for me  ).
> Anyway how does this grain bill look for a Bitter?
> 
> 4.5 kg JW Ale malt
> ...



Back on topic - Looks pretty good winkle, though I'd personally drop the dark crystal a tad lower.

cheers Ross


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## Trough Lolly (2/2/07)

Ross said:


> Yes warren, but not in a bitter - I've been trying to get the caramel taste of an English bitter with little success - just tried caraaroma & it was nowhere near the mark. AndQld's bitter is probably the closest to the mark i've tried. The Dark ctystal is sweet rather than caramelly, was tempted to use straight caramalt - Any ideas, anyone?
> 
> cheers Ross



Unless you want to get into the Caramels, I've found with a bit of practice, a tray of Bairds Pale malt, lightly sprayed and toasted in the oven does a pretty good job. The longer you leave it, the darker it gets so you'll need to practice but the beauty is that you can keep notes and repeat the practice to make the perfect addition to suit your needs...

A primer on toasting your malt is: here............

Cheers,
TL


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## Ross (2/2/07)

Thanks TL, but not sure I'd dare invade the kitchen with malt - Jacky's non too happy that the brewing has taken over almost every other area of the house already  

Settled on this I think :unsure: : 

Carbrook bitter III 
Standard/Ordinary Bitter 


Type: All Grain
Date: 2/02/2007 
Batch Size: 28.00 L
Boil Size: 36.61 L
Boil Time: 90 min 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.0 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
3.70 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 86.0 % 
0.20 kg Caramunich III (Weyermann) (139.9 EBC) Grain 4.7 % 
0.20 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 4.7 % 
0.10 kg Carared (Weyermann) (47.3 EBC) Grain 2.3 % 
0.10 kg Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) Grain 2.3 % 
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.10%] (30 min) Hops 9.5 IBU 
15.00 gm Challenger [7.80%] (30 min) Hops 8.7 IBU 
30.00 gm Bramling Cross [8.60%] (10 min) Hops 9.1 IBU 
30.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.10%] (10 min) Hops 5.4 IBU 
30.00 gm Bramling Cross [8.60%] (20 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 
30.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.10%] (20 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 
0.50 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Windsor Yeast (Lallemand #-) Yeast-Ale 

Est Original Gravity: 1.041 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 3.8 % 
Bitterness: 32.7 IBU 
Est Color: 24.3 EBC


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## warrenlw63 (2/2/07)

Ross said:


> Thanks TL, but not sure I'd dare invade the kitchen with malt - Jacky's non too happy that the brewing has taken over almost every other area of the house already
> 
> Settled on this I think :unsure: :



Tasty! :beer: 

Warren -


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## ausdb (3/2/07)

Ross said:


> Yes warren, but not in a bitter - I've been trying to get the caramel taste of an English bitter with little success - just tried caraaroma & it was nowhere near the mark. AndQld's bitter is probably the closest to the mark i've tried. The Dark ctystal is sweet rather than caramelly, was tempted to use straight caramalt - Any ideas, anyone?
> 
> cheers Ross


Ross try a bit of Jaggery palm sugar seems to work for me, check out Smashed Santa bitter in the recipes section and the feedback on the sandgropers 2006 case.


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## Ross (3/2/07)

ausdb said:


> Ross try a bit of Jaggery palm sugar seems to work for me, check out Smashed Santa bitter in the recipes section and the feedback on the sandgropers 2006 case.



Thanks Ausb, may just be the go - Where's the best place to get it - Asian stores I'm guessing?

Cheers ross


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## ausdb (3/2/07)

Yeah Asian shops are best, just beware the dark stuff get the one that is a tan colour and little pillow shaped blocks. And taste it 1st! I used the dark stuff in a cider once but had already boiled it with some spices and thrown it in the fermenter before I decided to taste test a bit. It was one of those "I wish I hadn't done that moments" and the strong taste took about 6 months to subside to a drinkable level. If it tastes good then it is good!!


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## Stuster (3/2/07)

I think that dark stuff is nice, but I've only used it in darker Belgians. I can't imagine it would work well in a cider. :blink: 

The paler palm sugar is good in lighter beers. I used it in a summer ale which SWMBO has informed me I am making again.


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