# Privatise Australia Post?



## Bribie G (14/2/14)

I've put this in the Pub thread as postage and courier services are dear to the hearts of many home brewers.

Looks like privatisation is on the cards. I for one (coming from the UK originally) have always been puzzled by the ridiculous stranglehold and limited opening hours of Australian Post Offices, both Official and Franchised ones. Why the Hell can't I buy a 3k Satchel on Saturday Afternoon or a stamped envelope on a Sunday? Why do I have to stand in a line of thirty people snaking out of the door down the street (as was usually the case on Bribie Island)?

In most sensible logical businesses if you regularly get massive queues then .... hey.... our services are in demand, let's put on another staff member and look for a better storefront to lease and make some profits. This seemingly sensible approach seems to have totally escaped AusPost who can't see it as a problem that I have to wait up to twenty minutes in a germy queue while some bag peers over the counter at me like I've just crawled out from under a rock.

Bring it on.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (14/2/14)

I have had one parcel go missing in 10 years, I say, not a bad service.
Longest wait is about 5 mins and that's very occasionally.
Ever posted stuff from India ?
Nev


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## pk.sax (14/2/14)

Indian post is nationalised. What says that about what...

Australia should be able to do a good privatised postal service. Just make sure you don't let the bureaucrats go over into corporate management or it'd be doomed with the same attitudes.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (14/2/14)

Just saying If you think Aussie post sucks you should really see a postal system that is BAD, then you may think yourself lucky.
Business by India post would be impossible.


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## lukiferj (14/2/14)

I have found Australia Post to generally be pretty good. My last 3 packages have all been a drama though. I have a package tracking app on my phone and I received a message to say that a package had tried to be delivered but there was no one home. Not only was I home the entire day but there was no slip left in my letterbox. I then contacted the local post office to ask what was going on and if my package was there. It was not on that day. The next day it was. I then received a slip for the same package in my letterbox 2 days later. This has now bizarrely happened 3 times. The post office said that there have been changes to the way that packages are now processed and delivered directly through delivery centres.

That being said, when I was in the states a couple of years ago, it took an hour to fill out all the paperwork that was required to send a package back home.


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## fletcher (14/2/14)

Bribie G said:


> I've put this in the Pub thread as postage and courier services are dear to the hearts of many home brewers.
> 
> Looks like privatisation is on the cards. I for one (coming from the UK originally) have always been puzzled by the ridiculous stranglehold and limited opening hours of Australian Post Offices, both Official and Franchised ones. Why the Hell can't I buy a 3k Satchel on Saturday Afternoon or a stamped envelope on a Sunday? Why do I have to stand in a line of thirty people snaking out of the door down the street (as was usually the case on Bribie Island)?
> 
> ...


is there any reason it needs to be privatised to be open on a weekend? i've never understood this about any government agency really though i'm sure there is some old historical reason that hasn't been changed. what is the 'not open on weekends' thing all about? i realise some are open for a small time on saturday but what's the big deal with extending business day hours so that many people working 9-5 can go without racing there on their lunch hour in a 4000+ people line; and/or extending it to 7 days a week?


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## pk.sax (14/2/14)

The same bloody reason restaurants in sleepy towns (even brissy) don't open for either brekky or lunch at all. Provincial.


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## OzPaleAle (14/2/14)

It seems a bit of a weird arrangement that they make in the hundreds of millions of $ profit, I'm not sure their job is to make big profits, maybe some of those profits could be directed to opening hour extensions or postie wet weather gear that is actually waterproof unlike the current offering..... They were generous this year though, all the staff got a box of 100 stamps for a christmas bonus....


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## pk.sax (14/2/14)

That's a LOT of letter writing for the kids. Think of all the aunts, uncles, grandmas, grandpas, great aunts, great uncles that'd be pleased to receive a proper letter from the kids. And the millions in inheritance you are sticking your foot in the door for  the kids might even improve their letter writing skills hey.

Tonguefirmlyincheek


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## OzPaleAle (14/2/14)

I believe they were all very tempted to send the CEO 100 letters each with them.


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## Batz (14/2/14)

I find Australia Post quite good, our little post office is only open 8.00am-11.00am but I can work around that.


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## Bridges (14/2/14)

God I hope this doesn't happen. Privatization always results in higher costs for the end user with worse service, as it must make a profit so it's investors can get a return on their investment.
Ask any Victorian about how well the power industry is going since the sell off of the S.E.C.


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## wide eyed and legless (14/2/14)

OzPaleAle said:


> I believe they were all very tempted to send the CEO 100 letters each with them.


They were unfranked then.


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## pat_00 (14/2/14)

lukiferj said:


> I have found Australia Post to generally be pretty good. My last 3 packages have all been a drama though. I have a package tracking app on my phone and I received a message to say that a package had tried to be delivered but there was no one home. Not only was I home the entire day but there was no slip left in my letterbox. I then contacted the local post office to ask what was going on and if my package was there. It was not on that day. The next day it was. I then received a slip for the same package in my letterbox 2 days later. This has now bizarrely happened 3 times. The post office said that there have been changes to the way that packages are now processed and delivered directly through delivery centres.
> 
> That being said, when I was in the states a couple of years ago, it took an hour to fill out all the paperwork that was required to send a package back home.


I've had some similar problems, it's because they subcontract out the delivery.

Just a taste of what it'll be like once they privatise it.


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## battlesnake (14/2/14)

Our local post office, which is also a news agent, family run has been great. Being open 7 days a week means i can pick packages up on the weekend, as generally i cant get there during Mon to Friday hours. How ever the family recently sold it to a different family who also operate a local dry cleaners. Apparently they no longer have room to store many packages (the previous owners had no problem with this) and i have had to drive 25 minutes to the aus post distribution center and line up for 20 minutes to collect a package which I paid to have delivered to my door.


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## TimT (14/2/14)

Some parts of Australia Post are privatised anyway, just to add to the confusion!


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## TimT (14/2/14)

The queues can be ridiculous - agreed.


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## pcmfisher (14/2/14)

Bribie G said:


> I've put this in the Pub thread as postage and courier services are dear to the hearts of many home brewers.
> 
> Looks like privatisation is on the cards. I for one (coming from the UK originally) have always been puzzled by the ridiculous stranglehold and limited opening hours of Australian Post Offices, both Official and Franchised ones. Why the Hell can't I buy a 3k Satchel on Saturday Afternoon or a stamped envelope on a Sunday? Why do I have to stand in a line of thirty people snaking out of the door down the street (as was usually the case on Bribie Island)?
> 
> ...



Yes, I think a prerequisite for working at a lot of post offices is to pass the misery guts test..........


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/2/14)

Be interesting to see if any government would be game to privatise Austpost. I doubt it will win them an election.


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## amcqueen (14/2/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Be interesting to see if any government would be game to privitise Austpost. I doubt it will win them an election.


Why not? The proceeds of the float will be redirected back into infrastructure (or surplus if your cyclical like me). The aim of government is to services and infrastructure. Australia Post has since the advent of online shopping moved from that to a very profitable company in its own right. It's a very fine line of democratic governments to run businesses in search of profits. That's why we're taxed so much


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## Ducatiboy stu (14/2/14)

But it is also seen as an essential public service. And whats wrong with the government taking a continual dividend year after year. 

But then again, privatising electricity in Victoria was stunning succes.


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## TimT (14/2/14)

I think it's true that privatisation is generally a policy most of the public don't like - though sometimes they're more prepared to accept it than others.

If the Libs really do privatise Auspost, they'd probably choose to do it at the beginning of a term of government rather than at the end - so that by the time they're ready for another election they have lots of cash to hand out to folks they want to bribe persuade to vote for them again.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/2/14)

Yeah true....worked in Tasmania with Cadbury's


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## peas_and_corn (15/2/14)

OzPaleAle said:


> It seems a bit of a weird arrangement that they make in the hundreds of millions of $ profit, I'm not sure their job is to make big profits, maybe some of those profits could be directed to opening hour extensions or postie wet weather gear that is actually waterproof unlike the current offering..... They were generous this year though, all the staff got a box of 100 stamps for a christmas bonus....


Australia Post has been running at a loss for years. Their letter delivering service is the money sink, they delivered 1 billion fewer letters in 2013 than in 2008


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## amcqueen (15/2/14)

peas_and_corn said:


> Australia Post has been running at a loss for years. Their letter delivering service is the money sink, they delivered 1 billion fewer letters in 2013 than in 2008


I dont think so - a company that turns a profit like theirs should be envied. Id buy shares in it!

From the Annual Report _"In 2012/13 Australia Post achieved a group profit of $312 million after tax - a 10.9 per cent increase on the previous year - and, as a result, will deliver a $244 million dividend to the Australian Government"_


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/2/14)

Thars a pretty good divedend.


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## technobabble66 (15/2/14)

Ridiculous to privatise it.
Any benefits/savings gained from a more efficient operation will be soaked up in the owner skimming profits.
Austpost already do a good job, generally speaking.
It's a good money generator for the government/public-purse, and will continue to do so for many generations.
*It's an asset owned by Every. Australian. Citizen*. -- how on earth can a small group of politicians/bureaucrats decide to sell it off???
And what do you think is going to be done with the money? Sure some might go into some sort of long-term infrastructure, but most will be soaked up in transient expenses/wages.
So how much benefit will we see in 20 years time, as opposed to continuing own the asset that will still be paying big dividends that our grandchildren will benefit from.
I might feel a bit differently about it if it actually made any long-term economic sense; or the if service was so bad that it needed an overhaul the government couldn't perform. 
I find it _highly_ offensive that a great, permanently high-earning, public asset can be sold for such a short term gain that is partly/largely going to be used for political capital. The only thing i might find more disappointing is the lack of opposition in the general public

Sorry for the rant, but (as stated) it's a ridiculous proposal.

Actually, given it doesn't make economic sense, it honestly makes you wonder what agenda the Abbott government is pursuing to explain this proposal?...


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/2/14)

The want to sell it and blame it on Labor cause they created a budget emergancy that needed the procedes of the sale to fix.

Simple really.


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## jlm (15/2/14)

technobabble66 said:


> Ridiculous to privatise it.
> Any benefits/savings gained from a more efficient operation will be soaked up in the owner skimming profits.
> Austpost already do a good job, generally speaking.
> It's a good money generator for the government/public-purse, and will continue to do so for many generations.
> ...


These are all valid points, but lets not forget that the OP needed a 3kg satchel on a Saturday arvo once and he copped a lot of long queues. Obviously privatisation would fix these problems........unless of course most AUS post shops were already franchises and I'd imagine that up to a point these issues could be resolved by the existing franchise owners without privatisation if said franchisee weren't dealing with the issues all customer service based small business' face.

Edit: no sarcasm font.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/2/14)

Most of the Auspost Shopfronts are franchised.


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## wide eyed and legless (15/2/14)

I think that should it be up for sale then the government would retain a substantial share as in the U.K.
Australia seems to follow leads by the U.K, whereas 30% is retained by the government, what has to be considered is with emails and private parcel deliveries how much of a cash cow is it going to be in the near future.
Stu, it is a fact of life that a liberal governments have to come in and try to get us out of the shit that a previous labour governments has got us into, how many times does it have to happen before people realise.


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## jlm (15/2/14)

Yeah Stu....must put a sig in that says "above post dripping with sarcasm" would make life easier.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/2/14)

Shame I wasnt being sarcastic.


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## daveHQ (15/2/14)

A point to remember.... USPS hasn't made a profit since president Abraham Lincoln was in office, the last financial year they only made a US 5 billion $$$ loss!!! The best result in 20 years!!! The year before was $15.6 billion loss 

Aus post in comparison to other countries is doing great!! How long was the stamp at 45c?? And they still made money?

No need to stress, Aus post is doing ok, privatisation is not a good thing, prices will rise... No question at all!


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## jlm (15/2/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Shame I wasnt being sarcastic.


Yep, I know.........Sarcasm I was talking about was in my post, talking about the OP's issues and the reality of Aus post's shop fronts, I'm well aware of how they work....I require a sarcasm font for a large portion of my posts and I demand admin do something about it now.

I'll have a rant about it in the newly made ranting (or: "I don't have the Facebook and piss on it whenever possible but need an online forum to air my gripes") thread.........


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/2/14)

Maybe we should get banks to open on ssturdays. Maybe we could get them to open before 10:00am and after 4:00pm


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## jlm (15/2/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Maybe we should get banks to open on ssturdays. Maybe we could get them to open before 10:00am and after 4:00pm


<insert sarcasm font> No, that won't do, they're doing it tough enough as it is. I won't support anything that hurts a struggling industry. <end sarcasm fault>


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/2/14)

Yeah. Got to feel sorry for our banks. There just not making enough money.


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## bradsbrew (15/2/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Yeah. Got to feel sorry for our banks. There just not making enough money.


Yeah I wish our banks were broke, that'd teach em.


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## DU99 (15/2/14)

:icon_offtopic: i would be changing bank if it didn't open on a saturday....


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## technobabble66 (15/2/14)

jlm said:


> These are all valid points, but lets not forget that the OP needed a 3kg satchel on a Saturday arvo once and he copped a lot of long queues. Obviously privatisation would fix these problems........unless of course most AUS post shops were already franchises and I'd imagine that up to a point these issues could be resolved by the existing franchise owners without privatisation if said franchisee weren't dealing with the issues all customer service based small business' face.
> 
> Edit: no sarcasm font.


Yep, seems remarkably similar to the same problems i face if i ever need to go to a branch of the big 4 banks - and they're very very privatised. Though it could be they don't face enough competition to provoke them to open on saturdays, etc - maybe something to do with there only being 4 majors in the market.
I'd be guessing Australia's not big enough to support more than one major Auspost-type operation. So i'd be guessing there'd be a complete absence of competition, so really no need to improve their services, etc, just collect cash as profits.
Kinda like Telstra, really.



wide eyed and legless said:


> I think that should it be up for sale then the government would retain a substantial share as in the U.K.
> Australia seems to follow leads by the U.K, whereas 30% is retained by the government, what has to be considered is with emails and private parcel deliveries how much of a cash cow is it going to be in the near future.
> Stu, it is a fact of life that a liberal governments have to come in and try to get us out of the shit that a previous labour governments has got us into, how many times does it have to happen before people realise.


Again, just like Telstra.
First step, float the entity on the stock market, with the Government taking a major stake. Sounds great, best of both worlds: the benefits of operating the entity as a privatised company, and the public still retain a large enough share to maintain a good income & controlling interest.
A few/several years later, the obvious becomes more apparent: there is a major conflict with the government having a large interest in a major player (or monopoly) of a critical industry. Advised by everyone the government must divest its interest. 
TaDah - public no longer have a share in the entity, just an industry controlled by a monopolising corporate entity.

Awesome result. [sarcasm, btw  ]

Yep - there does seem to be a pattern in Labor creates the debt, and Liberal has to pay it off. It's extremely frustrating. I just don't see this as a good enough excuse to justify this particular course of action.


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## Ducatiboy stu (15/2/14)

Its a vicious pattern. Liberal payoff Labours debt but then dont spend enough on infrastucture,health, education etc so Labour comes in and spends to to catchup which in turn leaves a deficite that Liberal pay off. But all Abbott/Hockey will do is the same as Howrrd/Costello by selling off assets. At some point there will be no more assets......and then we are trully fucked.


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## TimT (15/2/14)

_At some point there will be no more assets......and then we are trully fucked._

You'd think so, but apparently they have creative ways of coming up with more assets. Large parts of Auspost are already privatised, for instance.... and imagine my surprise when, during the later years of the Howard government, they proposed privatising a particular health body which I felt sure had already been privatised (don't remember which now).

Not commenting on the economics of it all as you all have hashed it all out already, and I'm no economist - just amused at the way these things happen over time and the unintentional ironies they cause.


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## Dan Dan (15/2/14)

fletcher said:


> is there any reason it needs to be privatised to be open on a weekend? i've never understood this about any government agency really though i'm sure there is some old historical reason that hasn't been changed. what is the 'not open on weekends' thing all about? i realise some are open for a small time on saturday but what's the big deal with extending business day hours so that many people working 9-5 can go without racing there on their lunch hour in a 4000+ people line; and/or extending it to 7 days a week?


Because it's the government. Apparently, I get double time after three hours on a Saturday. I say apparently, because it has never happened. working on a Saturday, that is. Because I have a government job.


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## pedleyr (15/2/14)

With banks the simple reality is that the vast majority of their profit comes from business, not your and my transaction accounts and residential mortgage. They make a bit out of the mortgage but once you take the time value of money into account over the 30 year mortgage it isn't as much as you'd think.

Most of those customers don't care about weekend hours and if they want it you can bet that their relationship manager can organise it for them (client of mine did this last Sunday. He has facilities with them totalling around $150 million so they bend over both directions for him)... Most branch transactions and most transaction accounts that you and I have are loss makers for the banks, or VERY slim margin at best, so it makes sense that they don't try to make that activity more convenient.


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## Jaded and Bitter (16/2/14)

Ok from meory this is what communist Cuba under Castro did their Cigar industry.

The cigar factories are state owned and run.

The sole international distributor is 40% State owned, with the controlling 60% previously sold to a private Spanish company.

Stay with me here. The privately controlled international distribution arm is led by profits but does not have control of the factories, but consumer demand and product quality etc. directly affects the factories. ie if the factories making crap cigars no one buys them and things change, sometimes management, or the whole factories closed down, production of higher value lines transferred etc.

They dont just make cigars no-one wants, their brand, Habanos is a premium brand, and all product must be sold.

The international distribution arm does have control over product lines, brands, promotion etc.

So in a way the nationalised factories are operating under free market conditions, they need to perform.

So the government gets 40% of the revenue from international distribution arm and profits from the factories which are esentially in competition.

This has worked very well for many years.

However, I do not consider our current crop of illustrious leaders (All parties) could figure out an equivalent arrangement. I survive in the corporate world and have learned to recognise when management has gone bad within a particular company. There are certain common traits, sometimes what are termed corporate psychpaths are firmly entrenched within the management struture. The results are frequently damaging to the company. I'm beginning to wonder whether a similar phenomenon is occuring with our federal government.

They have allways been a pack of ratbags but perhaps they have ventured into new territory.

Anyway, Aussie post does need to improve, whichever way they go. All parcels, magazines and perhaps even letters must accurately be tracked. If its a book or grains etc you will always recieve it, but if its a car magazine subscription or a CD I only ever recieve about 70-80% of packages. ie if the postal workers like it dont be disapointed if you never get it.


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## Greg.L (16/2/14)

The problem for the Libs is that the Post Office is an essential service in country areas and those are also the least profitable areas. It would be very hard to sell privatisation to the Nats.
The Libs do have big budget problems because they get rid of the carbon tax and a few other taxes but can't find big enough cuts. Getting rid of family payment B would be very unpopular and it was introduced by Howard anyway. They can't touch the pensioners and can't squeeze any more money out of dole bludgers, also they have committed to the education spending, parental leave and the NDS. They are desperate to find money from privatisation but most things have already been sold, you can't raid the piggybank twice - that's the big problem with privatisation. Defence would be easy to cut but they need them to chase away boat people. Nauru and the other camps also cost a hell of a lot of money to run.


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## DU99 (16/2/14)

asset selloff seems most liberal states in australia have got rid of them.Kennet sold off heaps when he came to power.Newman is doing the same thing.


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## bradsbrew (16/2/14)

DU99 said:


> .Newman is doing the same thing.


Didn't think Beatty and Bligh left much to sell


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/2/14)

I saw some figures on what the carbon tax was bringing in...about 2bill. Now the Libs are screwed because they have to get rid of it otherwise they would have nothing to say in campaigne speeches ( since evertime the open their mouth theword carbon tax spews forth ) . The fact they stretched the truth by blaming electricity prices on the tax wont help their cause. In a way they have dug a hole with the carbon tax. They know its a money earner but based their mandate on removing it. And I think they will be to scared to pull a double disalusion election


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## MHB (16/2/14)

I get it
the letter part isn't profitable, the parcel service earns a motza
lets sell Australia Post then invest the money in a great NBN so more people can shop on line meaning more parcels...
fork that's right we dont need an NBN according to the government that wants to sell the Post
maybe I don't get it after all

Mark


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/2/14)

25mb/s is heaps fast enough.


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## rheffera (16/2/14)

Sure why not. The Funds used from the privatization of australia telecom were used well, right?


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## fletcher (16/2/14)

Dan Dan said:


> Because it's the government. Apparently, I get double time after three hours on a Saturday. I say apparently, because it has never happened. working on a Saturday, that is. Because I have a government job.


yeah that's exactly my point...'because it's the government' doesn't count as an excuse in my books. unless there is some deep-ingrained law that we're still abiding by that mandates against work on a weekend or some other turn of the century crap.

keep it public, just extend the hours. i work casually for a telco while still at uni and if we only worked business hours the world would literally end for the fvckwit customers i deal with. postage isn't a week-long commodity perhaps like a phone service or fridge repair etc etc is? i'd loudly beg to differ.


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## redbeard (16/2/14)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> 25mb/s is heaps fast enough.


Its now "up to 25mb/s" with the LNP FTTN fraudband ...


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## Darren Hayes (16/2/14)

Albeit IMO the OP is first and foremost the real face of Aussiehomebrewer. Alas this time he has it wrong. The Abbot government will by stealth attack conditions, penalty rates, casualisation of the workforce and reinforce work choice conditions.
Conservatives and Liberals argue all you want about the workers EA`s wages and lazy etc etc. Y generation?? why the hell do i have to this, Y the hell do i need a job, Y the hell cant i use my social media when working. Y generation is ******* us! They got no balls and trust management. Y generation in years to come will work for 16 an hour and scream blue murder their being hard done by. FFS stand up and oppose an attack on workers conditions YOUNG ONES, We have for the last 200 years secured your conditions and its time you stand up because come the crunch unions wont protect scabs.
Haysie


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## TidalPete (16/2/14)

> Albeit IMO the OP is first and foremost the real face of Aussiehomebrewer. Alas this time he has it wrong. The Abbot government will by stealth attack conditions, penalty rates, casualisation of the workforce and reinforce work choice conditions.
> 
> Conservatives and Liberals argue all you want about the workers EA`s wages and lazy etc etc. Y generation?? why the hell do i have to this, Y the hell do i need a job, Y the hell cant i use my social media when working. Y generation is ******* us! They got no balls and trust management. Y generation in years to come will work for 16 an hour and scream blue murder their being hard done by. FFS stand up and oppose an attack on workers conditions YOUNG ONES, We have for the last 200 years secured your conditions and its time you stand up because come the crunch unions wont protect scabs.


+1 +1 +1

I am long retired but to those of you who scorn, degenerate, piss on unions & do not contribute to union funds then just pause & think for a moment ----- Who is going to look after your working conditions if not your union?
EVERYBODY is in a union be that it is called by another name. Just think collective survival here: Doctors, accountants, farmers, employers, they all have their "Union" call it what you want?

If all those of you who are think that unions are the end of the world then have the guts to tell your employer that you will happily do without EVERY benefit that has been painfully gained for you by your union in a long & bitter battle over many, many years.

Good luck to your working conditions when you do. :lol:


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## wide eyed and legless (16/2/14)

I think it may have escaped your notice that we live in a democracy, not under an authoritarian regime.


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## bradsbrew (16/2/14)

TidalPete said:


> +1 +1 +1
> 
> I am long retired but to those of you who scorn, degenerate, piss on unions & do not contribute to union funds then just pause & think for a moment ----- Who is going to look after your working conditions if not your union?
> EVERYBODY is in a union be that is called by another name. Just think collective survival here: Doctors, accountants, farmers, employers, they all have their "Union" call it what you want?
> ...


What about the subby that has done the figures and can employ multiple tradies and meet current award rates for their employees but the subby and their employees can't enter the job site because they are not union members. It's a democratic country lets keep employment on construction sites the same hey?


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## Darren Hayes (16/2/14)

Well said Pete.
Unfortunately i clicked the "like this" AND thats what I dont like about social media and people movement. Feet on the street win wars not a click on social media. ALCOA soon to announce 500 jobs gone in Victoria and our mate/maggot Abbot hasnt started yet on the public service. Victoria 18th February march against the liberal movement that wish to impose a bill no person can protest, picket, boycott.


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## Darren Hayes (16/2/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> I think it may have escaped your notice that we live in a democracy, not under an authoritarian regime.


Democracy/Abbot............ the words dont match.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/2/14)

Unions are a necessary evil, both in the mind's of the the worker and the employer. The Unions have the ability to broker an agreement between the average worker and the employer. Having been thru worker agreements, it was the union who had the ability to broker an agreement. And it was the the employer that acually came up with a lot of concessions. And strangely, it was what the employerj wanted was more beneficial to the workers.......to continually blame unions is a false. It takes 2 to tango.


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## Darren Hayes (16/2/14)

bradsbrew said:


> What about the subby that has done the figures and can employ multiple tradies and meet current award rates for their employees but the subby and their employees can't enter the job site because they are not union members. It's a democratic country lets keep employment on construction sites the same hey?


If your done the figures, you would have accounted for a closed shop? yes?


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## bradsbrew (16/2/14)

Darren Hayes said:


> If your done the figures, you would have accounted for a closed shop? yes?


Exactly, why in a democratic country should i have to pay the pay to get a contract if i am meeting all award agreements?


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## wide eyed and legless (16/2/14)

A good learning curve for you Darren would be to attempt to run a business of your own and not hide behind a union petticoat which is obviously doing a good job of brainwashing you.


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## Darren Hayes (16/2/14)

because you and abbott will undermine workers rights, you will contract out your services at the expense of your workers for your profit, you will agree with turning back boats but turn a blind eye to the increase of 457 workers, you will agree an attack on bikies is warranted yet it is an attack on unions.
Haysie


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## Darren Hayes (16/2/14)

wide eyed and legless said:


> A good learning curve for you Darren would be to attempt to run a business of your own and not hide behind a union petticoat which is obviously doing a good job of brainwashing you.


Dont start, i dont know you. you dont me. Dont get personal please


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## Jaded and Bitter (16/2/14)

MHB said:


> I get it
> the letter part isn't profitable, the parcel service earns a motza
> lets sell Australia Post then invest the money in a great NBN so more people can shop on line meaning more parcels...
> fork that's right we dont need an NBN according to the government that wants to sell the Post
> ...


I have the full fibreoptic NBN straight to my WiFi. It even has battery backup so I still get it if the power ever goes out.

Its awesome biatches :super:


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## wide eyed and legless (16/2/14)

Without being personal Darren where are you getting your information from?


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## TidalPete (16/2/14)

> +1 +1 +1
> 
> I am long retired but to those of you who scorn, degenerate, piss on unions & do not contribute to union funds then just pause & think for a moment ----- Who is going to look after your working conditions if not your union?
> EVERYBODY is in a union be that it is called by another name. Just think collective survival here: Doctors, accountants, farmers, employers, they all have their "Union" call it what you want?
> ...


Bumping this for the dickheads. :lol: :lol:


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## bradsbrew (16/2/14)

Darren Hayes said:


> because you and abbott will undermine workers rights, you will contract out your services at the expense of your workers for your profit As stated I would meet all modern award agreements( Modern awards = Rudd gov) and yes as a business owner i would like to make a profit from my employees- I have a family that cant eat charity., you will agree with turning back boats but turn a blind eye to the increase of 457 workers,No I totally disagree with 457 visa's to fill skill shortages, I prefer training in those skills, how much money do the unions contribute to training newbies in usable skills, really ? you will agree an attack on bikies is warranted yet it is an attack on unions. No its not an attack on unions, it is a lawful fulfillment of duties by police on members of society that stand over and bully the average citizen that works and pays taxes


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## wide eyed and legless (16/2/14)

I must say I feel sorry for those who have gone through their working life without achieving recognition from their employer on their own ability to do a job they are paid for, and doing it well.
A good employer will always give more benefits than that which a union can give to a model employee.


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## TidalPete (16/2/14)

> I must say I feel sorry for those who have gone through their working life without achieving recognition from their employer on their own ability to do a job they are paid for, and doing it well.
> A good employer will always give more benefits than that which a union can give to a model employee.


FKT I'm gone from this thread.
Why should I be worried about my grandchildren's future when it's already been decided by a few dickheads on AHB & I'll be long gone anyway.

PFFT B)


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## bradsbrew (16/2/14)

TidalPete said:


> FKT I'm gone from this thread.
> Why should I be worried about my grandchildren's future when it's already been decided by a few dickheads on AHB & I'll be long gone anyway.
> 
> PFFT B)


Pete, if your worried about your grandchildren's future, speak to your children - they are the biggest influence,. No need to blame AHB or society mate.


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## StalkingWilbur (16/2/14)

I don't understand how staunchly conservative right-wingers can't differentiate between good and bad debt.


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## elcarter (16/2/14)

I always wondered if we could spend the bazillion $ needed for high speed rail between capital cities, would postage become more affordable?
The whole population spread in Australia makes it costly to move stuff around like America and Europe can.

The capacity to load high speed trains up is far greater than aircraft and would be far quicker and cheaper than road once you get a heap of business people taking the train so they can work while they cruise around 300K's an hour with WiFi.

Qantas trains? The unions can build it with the Holden, ford and spc workers - or work for the dole people.
Wait i'm not sure I want to be rolling over rail @ 300ks that those people put together.


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## TidalPete (16/2/14)

> Pete, if your worried about your grandchildren's future, speak to your children - they are the biggest influence,. No need to blame AHB or society mate.


Brad,

This is absolutely my last post here but can't help but wonder that IF you have trade qualifications as you must have to do what you do in your job then WITBH would you forget your roots & pander to the employer side of things?
It's all a big mystery to me.


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## jlm (16/2/14)

Darren Hayes said:


> Democracy/Abbot............ the words dont match.


I didn't vote for Lparty he leads.....I also didn't vote for the other Lparty that makes up our fabulous political dichotomy.....but I'm yet to see where he's denying the right we, The Great Unwashed Half-Cut on a Sunday Night Mass, to kick out that particular mob in 3 years?


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## jlm (16/2/14)

TidalPete said:


> Brad,
> 
> This is absolutely my last post here but can't help but wonder that IF you have trade qualifications as you must have to do what you do in your job then WITBH would you forget your roots & pander to the employer side of things?
> It's all a big mystery to me.


I'd wager he's become one. I haven't, but am responsible for trying to make a profit on large contracts in the construction game (when I'm not doing my part time job.....getting paid to brew beer :wub: ) and can see his side, You're looking at things in a very simplistic black and white, us vs them way that needs to be gotten rid of in the workplace. I tell all the young kids who come to work with me that if you want to earn more money.......make your boss more money......a lot don't understand. Which is funny, as for the most part they're (unknowingly) far more ardent capitalists than I'll ever be.


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## bradsbrew (16/2/14)

TidalPete said:


> Brad,
> 
> This is absolutely my last post here but can't help but wonder that IF you have trade qualifications as you must have to do what you do in your job then WITBH would you forget your roots & pander to the employer side of things?
> It's all a big mystery to me.


Yep Pete, I am a tradie, have taught my trade and now manage the training op's. I have spent time as an apprentice, a tradie on wages, a tradie on PPS, a tradie on sub contract rates, a sub contractor, a contractor, an employer and a business owner. Have never needed a union or industry body to rely on. Guess my work sold it self and I was smart enough not to need someone to voice my needs. Someone say gen Y, how about .........


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## AndrewQLD (16/2/14)

TidalPete said:


> Brad,
> 
> This is absolutely my last post here but can't help but wonder that IF you have trade qualifications as you must have to do what you do in your job then WITBH would you forget your roots & pander to the employer side of things?
> It's all a big mystery to me.


I have a trade Pete, and the only time I had dealings with a union cost me and my brothers our jobs and shut down the small factory I worked in, six weeks of strikes killed it for the owners and they opted to shut down,not saying unions haven't done good but I haven't directly experienced the awesome benefits of paying for them to look after the "battler".


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## StalkingWilbur (16/2/14)

Hahahah. Baby boomers blaming gen y for the woes of the world. Classic.


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## jlm (16/2/14)

jlm said:


> I I tell all the young kids who come to work with me that if you want to earn more money.......make your boss more money......a lot don't understand. Which is funny, as for the most part they're (unknowingly) far more ardent capitalists than I'll ever be.


Now I think of it.....I also tell most people who work for me, regardless of age and generational compartment, to never show leadership or ability 'cause you'll end up in my place, trying to get a good job out of c*&ts like yourself. I don't think that fits into the conversation anywhere (I have quoted myself after all) but I feel like I need to get more of my managerial skills out there.


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## Ducatiboy stu (16/2/14)

Unions still have a place.

Its interesting that a "union" of doctors and lawyers call themselves a differenent entity..


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## zarniwoop (16/2/14)

StalkingWilbur said:


> Hahahah. Baby boomers blaming gen y for the woes of the world. Classic.


+1

"I'll have a starter of cheap housing, a main of negative gearing and the huge equity gain in my first house and to finish I'd like to blame the future generations for wanting too much, oh and I'll have the cheese and a glass of generally stuffing up the planet and taking the best years of western manufacturing and growth.".

Well we've gone so far from the original post office debate that I thought this would be ok too


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## TidalPete (16/2/14)

OK, so both you mods people replying to this thread are saying that even though you have a trade & have done your apprenticeship as you say thus relying on the hard-fought efforts of others to get you where you are today you STILL deny the obvious facts which are that the hard-fought sacrifices of those who paved the way are forgettable?

Looking forward to you both & others to give documental proof that your employers, have credited you with your "Hand-on-the-heart"  promise that you will NEVER, EVER accept accumulated sick leave, any overtime payments whatsoever, no time off for public holidays, the list goes on & on & on ---- 
Australian voters will thank you for your choice. 

Truly, truly my last post on this thread & you can blame those Perlick 575's for this last foray into this thread.


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## bradsbrew (16/2/14)

TidalPete said:


> OK, so both you mods people replying to this thread are saying that even though you have a trade & have done your apprenticeship as you say thus relying on the hard-fought efforts of others to get you where you are today you STILL deny the obvious facts which are that the hard-fought sacrifices of those who paved the way are forgettable?
> 
> Looking forward to you both & others to give documental proof that your employers, have credited you with your "Hand-on-the-heart"  promise that you will NEVER, EVER accept accumulated sick leave, any overtime payments whatsoever, no time off for public holidays, the list goes on & on & on ----
> Australian voters will thank you for your choice.
> ...


Pete, many people fought hard to make this country what it is. If I had to pay every group that has fought for my rights a membership just to get on a job site I would be better off on the dole. Did you work for a private employer or a public sector employer that had compulsory union obligations?


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## TidalPete (16/2/14)

Perhaps you might have been better off in the long run just by-passing the apprenticeship guidelines & asking for a straight-up membership to those LNP bastards mate. :lol:

Just joking Brad. 

:icon_offtopic:

It looks like my application for a $10.00 discount via you on behalf of all AHB'ers who are in retirement years has been ignored by our new Yankee owners so I will go Pro whenever I decide to or not. 
Probably Never! -_-


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/2/14)

Das Capital


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## Ducatiboy stu (17/2/14)

Forgot to mention its freely downloadable at thepiratebay.com in .pdf

oh the ******* ironie..you know...the iron with with the dupont patenetnedededed.non schtick surface.


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## goomboogo (17/2/14)

The children are our future.


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## warra48 (17/2/14)

The funny thing is that very few people realise that unions are actually an integral part of the capitalist system. 
The issue is how to split up the proceeds of business or commerce between the investors/owners of the business and those who actually do the work. It's just a question of who gets how much.

You don't really see any effective union presence in a dictator/socialist/communist environment. They might be there in name only to placate the masses, but of no real effect.

I don't have a beef with unions, they are an essential part of our system, and we need them to maintain balance. I'd hate to see where we'd end up without them. However, there are or have been abuses on both sides of the fence, whether workforce or management. That's also why we have labour and workplace legislation in place to set some of the ground rules. And I agree with Ducatiboy stu, there are lots of unions masquerading under other names such as the Australian Medical Association (medicos' union), Law Society (solicitors union), Bar Association (barristers' union) etc.

I'm now retired, and I was a union member for only part of my working life, but I was able to sell myself on my particular work skills and application. That did take a lot of hard work with tertiary studies and continued performance at my job. I'd have been moved out if I wasn't performing up to or better than expected standard.


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## bradsbrew (17/2/14)

I agree that we should have unions to represent workers. I dont agree that unions can stop a person for trying to earn some money, just because they do not want to pay to join.


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## Bridges (17/2/14)

I do agree with you Brad, no one should be able to stop you earning a crust, but what does sort of annoy me is when people say "I don't think a union can stop me going on site" yet they would expect all the same allowances, pay rate and safety standards that the union successfully negotiated for it's members who are also working on that site. If it is a "union site" every one there has benefited from the hard work of generations of union members, I'd think that it is sort of fair to expect a contribution from everyone who is enjoying those benefits.


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## GuyQLD (17/2/14)

I think the union in the traditional sense has really seen its day. They may have once been really effective but so many minimal standards have now been legislated that the unions role now seems to be solely about getting pay/conditions above the award. If that's going to be your sole goal then why not allow people to negotiate their own conditions, or join a union if they don't want to/don't feel confident doing that.

My workplace only has about 30% union membership yet every couple of years the agreement is looked at it seems only the union is consulted. And for my part, a number of the "conditions" they've fought for are there to appeal to poor performing staff. I use little to none of the benefits they've worked so hard to get. I'd Trade a huge chunk of them for something meaningful. Like performance based pay.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (17/2/14)

GuyQLD said:


> I'd Trade a huge chunk of them for something meaningful. Like performance based pay.


Until you become old and rooted like the rest of us :lol:
Nev


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## pk.sax (18/2/14)

Funny thing is that the life cycle of capital investment has come down, meaning capital needs renewing more often than it used to because mainly of the cheaper machinery (read production tools) and cheaper finance (lower rates everywhere). That does mean the employer needs a larger chunk of the margin (which shrinks more than it grows) to keep renewing the production capital. Yet staunch union backers would try to keep the share of the worker where it used to. What is driving the gen y away from the union movement is the irresponsible economics they preach. The union hurts the future of employees today by negotiating over payment for those employed now at the cost of very little being able to be invested back into growth. The unions need to make themselves relevant again if they want the workers to embrace them. I'm probably gen y, have worked in at least 6 or 7 different industries from being a worker through to being a manager, from being a number through to being the essential tool for the employer. It is true, some of the big employers do not give a **** about their employees. Their managements seem to treat employees with absolute contempt. Also, those same places have entrenched union bargained EBAs. Also, they have no performance based pay. In fact, it is ridiculously hard to reward hard workers over slackers unless you keep them casual and drop/increase the availability of work selectively. That is self destructive. IMO. Incidentally some of these are owned by big big big old money.

The better places I've worked for have tended to not be unionised/employee association beyond the organisation itself and understand the business a lot more. If the employees want a bigger cut of the take they gotta also invest in their work, one way or another. Seriously, if the cost of doing business in Australia doesn't get reasonable we would be in bad times with the flight of capital from our shores.


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## wide eyed and legless (18/2/14)

Did I not read this morning in the Australian that the A.W.U. is to forgo any of the wage increases with Rio Tinto after a ballot of the employees, what this is is common sense and how businesses and unions can work together and keep jobs.


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## Jaded and Bitter (28/2/14)

Ok, just trying to catch up with all this. :unsure:

So, next time I see my postie I push him off his bike a scream at him hes a whiny, lazy, capitalist gen-y scumbag and his union is ruining the country because it protects slakers and is irrelevant and corrupt?

Or do I just get my mail and open it? h34r:


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## Liam_snorkel (28/2/14)

You should give him a hug and a peck on the cheek


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## spog (28/2/14)

AndrewQLD said:


> I have a trade Pete, and the only time I had dealings with a union cost me and my brothers our jobs and shut down the small factory I worked in, six weeks of strikes killed it for the owners and they opted to shut down,not saying unions haven't done good but I haven't directly experienced the awesome benefits of paying for them to look after the "battler".


The only time I had dealings with the union it cost me my job as well .
Myself and another bloke were told " brother,you will join us or you lose your job "
" I am not your bother go get fucked ".
My then boss was told I we didn't join, his suppliers would be told not to supply him.
2 blokes out of a job.
End result ,to this day I have a deep loathing of unions.
But on a happier note the union goon went to another town,upset the wrong bloke and got the shit beaten out of him.Ahh justice
Cheers...spog...


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