# Using other fruits in ciders



## MrChoat (3/11/14)

Hi all

I have a bunch of Surinam cherry trees growing around my place, a couple of them have started to fruit. They drop a lot of fruit each summer and generally make a mess, so this year I've decided to harvest and do something with them.

So far I've collected from 3 trees for two days and already have 3 kg of fruit in the freezer. I'm planning to harvest until they stop producing and then see if I can make a beverage out of them. I've found they have about 7g of sugar per hundred grams, so I think I'll have to add honey or raw sugar to give the ferment a kick start.

A couple of years ago I infused some of the berries in vodka for a couple if months. The result was promising. They gave a tart, peppery flavour to the drinks the vodka was mixed in.

I've been looking around for recipes for cider from scratch, although they're all geared towards apples I'm getting the general idea.

What I'm planning on is to defrost around 10kg of berries, juice em or blend them, seperate the seeds, bring the juice up to 75° for 10 minutes, cool, add water, possibly sugar and top the fermenter up until my OG is around 1050, then pitching a cider yeast.

What I'd like to know is how much water and sugar do people add to apple juice to get the right og? 

Also how many kg of apples yeilds enough juice for a good batch?

Cheers for your help.


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## manticle (3/11/14)

Cider recipes are geared towards apples because that's what cider is. If you ferment a beverage with just cherries, it won't be cider. If you make a cider and add cherries, then it will be cider (cherry cider if you like). Do it with pear juice, you could call it cherry perry.

Generally with good cider, it is purely juice - no need to add sugar or water. Actual yield of sugar per apple depends on the variety, season, harvest, age of the apple, etc.
Press some cherry juice, filter out any bits and measure the gravity with a hydrometer. Should give you an idea of what to expect with your cherry wine.


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## manticle (3/11/14)

Oh and don't do 10 minutes for your pasteurisation step. I was reading an article recently on fruit pasteurisation - anything longer than 2 minutes resulted in detectable flavour change. 1-2 mins only, temp dependent. I'll try and find the article.


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## TimT (3/11/14)

My big ol' book on cider by Proulx and Nichols - which I think Manticle has read too - does recommend taking steps against bacteria in cider, but doesn't recommend heating the juice up or anything. It just recommends you add a pinch of metabiusulfite during the milling and then letting the juice sit for a day before pitching yeast. Well, we've done two runs so far, and haven't had any problems so far with infections. So you could try similar with cherries.

I definitely wouldn't heat fruit juice myself like that. The best protection against infection would be a lively yeast that efficiently produced a high concentration alcohol - the alcohol would deter any bacteria or wild yeasts. In the meantime, you'll get the most flavour and quality from fresh-pressed juice.

You could also add a cherry flavour and quality to other brews by making a cherry tincture in vodka, like you've done before. Moosh up the cherries and let them soak in the vodka for a few days. The high alcohol will kill off any wild yeasts or bacteria, and then you can pitch the lot into something else - a fruit wine, perhaps, even a beer.


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## manticle (3/11/14)

Paper I read suggests 70 deg c for 2 mins or 80 for 1 min caused significant reduction in microorganism levels and no resulting flavour change.
Otherwise sulphite as suggested above unless you are averse.


Altetnatively wing it and pitch heaps of healthy yeast - exactly what I've done when using fresh apples for cider.


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## MrChoat (3/11/14)

Hey guys, thanks for the tips.

My reasoning behind adding sugar and water is that I'm unsure of how much juice I'll get from the trees while in season. I'd like to get at least 5l just in case it turns out good.

The fruit themselves are pretty tart, and have very strong flavour they sweeten a lot when really ripe but taste of pepper if they're anything but falling off in your hand. Not many people like them. I occasionally eat em cause they're free and are supposed to have a lot of antioxidants.

After reading your suggestions I think I might just add some sulphate, it'll save the hassle if getting the temp right and cooling it again.

Since the fruit is so strong in flavour and has about half the sugar content of apples, I will probably get 5l of apple juice, and as much of the Brazilian cherry juice as I can and just see what happens with it.

It's more of an experiment to see if I can do anything at all with these fruit since they produce so much and it always goes to waste.


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## TimT (3/11/14)

MrChoat, I've linked this one before but check out this recipe for a 'Wild Fermented Country Wine'. Basically you put a bunch of sugar and water and fruit in a big mason jar and stir, stir, stir. The idea is to get the wild yeast living on the fruit to kick off a natural fermentation.

'Peppery' sounds interesting and it could be quite a lovely taste in other brews. I had an amber ale the other day which had added quandong and pepperberry; I think the quandong may have had a certain peppery spiciness too that added to the brew. From the flesh of the cherries I think you'd get a lot of tannins - good in wines and some bigger beers.


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## MrChoat (3/11/14)

Thanks TimT, 

That wine recipe looks exactly like the kind of thing I want to do with these fruit, nice and easy, and should give me a good idea if I can find other uses for them down the track like throwing a few into an ale.

Since I'm freezing the fruit until I have enough for a batch, do you think the natural yeast will survive or should I pitch a cider strain?

When I brew it I'll have maybe 75% of the fruit frozen and thawed, and the rest fresh off the tree. They just don't keep very long once ripe, hence the freezing.

I like the idea of quandong and pepperberry ale. Its good to see people trying different things with what they have available. I like to find uses for what grows around my yard, I might have to go looking and see what the other trees are. There's a decent size macadamia tree somewhere up there that might be useful for something too.


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## TimT (3/11/14)

I think the freezing might knock back the yeast a fair bit without killing it entirely - anyway, if you add a fair quantity of fresh fruit you may not have to worry about that so much.

The other benefit of freezing is it'll break down the cell walls of the cherries, make them easier to crush when you want to get the juice out.


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## MrChoat (8/11/14)

Quick update.

I was running out of room in the freezer today so I decided to throw it in a fermenter and hope for the best. 

All up there was 3kg of the cherries and the trees are still fruiting like crazy. I've found about 15 of the trees of which 4 were fruiting, and the rest look like they're about to, so if this goes well I might do it again.

I added the 3kg of cherries along with 2l hot water, mushed them up with a potato masher for a 5 minutes, and then topped it up with 600g raw sugar and filled the fermenter to 10l. 

Og 1042, so its going to be mildly alcoholic when it's done.

I could drink it as it is, sweet and spicy. It would make a good base for a cocktail.

I did pitch about a teaspoon of ale yeast straight on top, just to help it get started.

All there is to do now is wait and see what comes of it.


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## MrChoat (12/11/14)

Bottled today at fg 1016.

Tastes OK, it has mellowed out a lot from the fruit. Reminds me a bit of the Bundaberg peach flavoured soft drink, still sweet, just a little spicy.

Didn't bother priming as I suspect the ferment wasn't finished, will update again in a couple of months if it turns out drinkable. It might be alright on a hot day in the middle of summer for something different.


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## Airgead (13/11/14)

If its possibly still fermenting, there is enough sugar left to way overcarb and cause bottle bombs. I'd be a bit careful around them, particularly of you bottled in glass.

Best to wait for fermentation to finish then prime if you want carbonation. Remembering that cider isn't beer so it won't stop at 1.010 or so... it will often go right down to 1.000.


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## manticle (13/11/14)

I wouldn't have bottled at 1016 unless you have experience of carbing this way. Be careful with them.


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## MrChoat (13/11/14)

Should be interesting, they're in green glass stubbies, tucked away in the box the stubbies came in, hidden in the basement on a rack over a dirt floor. I was predicting they'd stop at about 1010 but i could be wrong.

How many days until bottles usually go boom? Just in case I get woken unexpectedly in the night.


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## anthonyUK (13/11/14)

Those cherries sound like they would be great in a Belgian style beer :drinks:
A bit jealous actually.


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## Airgead (13/11/14)

MrChoat said:


> Should be interesting, they're in green glass stubbies, tucked away in the box the stubbies came in, hidden in the basement on a rack over a dirt floor. I was predicting they'd stop at about 1010 but i could be wrong.
> 
> How many days until bottles usually go boom? Just in case I get woken unexpectedly in the night.


Unlikely to stop at 1.010. You should know within a week or so. You could be lucky and the bottles will take the pressure. They will probably be gushers though. The big danger is that the bottles will hold until you pick one up and the additional heat from your hand pushes the pressure just that little bit higher...foom. In your hand.

I've seen bottles explode with enough force to embed glass in the ceiling.

I'd be uncapping one every day or so to check the carbonation and if they start to gush get them straight into a fridge and don't let them out until you open them. Or uncap them all, release the pressure and recap.

Bottle bombs are dangerous.


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## Dave70 (14/11/14)

MrChoat said:


> Should be interesting, they're in green glass stubbies, tucked away in the box the stubbies came in, hidden in the basement on a rack over a dirt floor. I was predicting they'd stop at about 1010 but i could be wrong.
> 
> *How many days until bottles usually go boom?* Just in case I get woken unexpectedly in the night.


Highly likely when you lift one out of the crate and hold it up to the light to examine how well its cleared. Right in your face. I had a Belgian dark / chopped dates experiment go wrong a couple of years ago. Brewed in winter and the bottles never started bursting until the weather warmed up. I'm talking blowing Coopers bottles to shards here.

Honestly mate, its no ******* joke when these things burst and anyone who's had one let go in their general proximity will attest. I'd be wearing one of those full face guards you sometimes see council blokes using when brushcutting and a pair of gloves to be on the safe side. 

Note also this is coming from a bloke who sees not being a licensed electrition as no barrier to re wiring the odd power appliance here and there..


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## manticle (14/11/14)

I would wrap each bottle tightly in glad wrap now before they start carbing too much. At the very least, throw a few heavy towels over the crate and keep children, eyes and tendons away.

Alternatively uncap, put a bit of glad wrap with a rubber band over the top of each and let them ferment right out. Pick one or two for testers and check gravity every so often.

Bottle bombs can do lots of damage in the right/wrong face.


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## Airgead (14/11/14)

This thread - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/46088-homebrew-tragedy-with-pics/ is about bottle bombs. Some of the pictures have stopped working (just as well as they were pretty bad)... but you'll get the idea.


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## MrChoat (14/11/14)

Cheers for the concern guys, I'm just going to leave them in the box they're in for a few months. Its a cardboard box under an area no one can get to, and it's taped shut.

The the krausen had disappeared and there was no more activity visible on top through the glad wrap, so I doubt anything will happen, but if they're gonna go bang they won't be hurting anyone.

I don't think I'll be doing any bottling after this, it was the first batch I've bottled and to be honest it was a major pain and messy experience that I don't wish to repeat.


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## manticle (14/11/14)

Your signs of non fermentation are not real signs.
Might be all good and fine and I don't want to be a drama princess but take glass bottle bombs seriously, even if you get none in this batch.


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## MrChoat (23/12/14)

Reviving an old thread with the end results.

I had about 5 bottle bombs out of about 30 stubbies. The carbonation was a tad high in the rest of them, but I couldn't tell if it was bottling early that caused it or the bad weather we had a few weeks back in Brisbane.

I had left a box full of this booze in the basement. I forgot the basement floods in heavy rainfall and forms a natural spring in the hill below the house. 

So the box was on the other side of the room I'd left it in back in November, with a fine layer of limestone silt covering it. How many times it swam around the pool that forms down there is impossible to know, but the point is there were a few broken.

The taste?

Eh. Its OK. It isn't sweet or tart and it doesn't resemble the fruit that went into making it. 

Its spicy and light. Also dry.

I'll try again when the next trees go into fruit but I think next time I will make a cider or applewine, wait for fermentation to finish, kill the yeast and add the fruit after fermentation to try to get the flavour better out of the final product.

All in all a good lesson.

If I have learnt anything it is that I hate bottling and have bought more kegs to avoid it at all costs.


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## manticle (24/12/14)

The unexploded ones can still explode. Continue to be cautious.


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## Ciderman (24/12/14)

I have one of the trees and the fruit tastes closer to a tomato than a cherry. Makes good jam.


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