# How Sweet Should This Be?



## Tanga (5/1/11)

Question as above. 

Here's the recipe / method. I'm afraid the recipe didn't say which yeast, so I'm not sure how sweet it should end up. Plus I'm using an oztop, so the time is not reliable (if it should have been anyway considering it's being done at room temp.

*Apple and Blackcurrent Melomel*



1.2 L water (200 boiling)

725g bluegum honey

500 mL apple and blackcurrent juice (preservative free)

12 mL of pumpkin pie spice (cinnamon, nutmeg, ginger and cloves)

cap yeast 2 (orange test-tube the fruity one)

It was brewed in a 2.4 L just juice container (low carbonation lid)



I added 1 L of water to the bottle (already containing the juice)

Measured out the honey and added 200mL of boiling water and stirred

Then added the spices and stirred until its runny (dont do this again as it sticks to the sides and the spices get wasted though I added extra spices to compensate next time add them straight to the bottle).

Added the honey / spice mixture to the bottle

Shook the heck out of it, then added the yeast and shook it again.






Next time I might use slightly less water it is based on Lord Dominic Meadmakers Blackberry Mead from _Hombrew Favorites _(Lutzen and Stevens) the 1/5 batch would have 1.2 L water and 385 mL juice (his was blackberry), but I used all the juice I had so should have lessened the water I think 1 L, not 1.2.


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## barls (5/1/11)

what yeast did you use?


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## KudaPucat (5/1/11)

Did you measure your OG or FG?
It's hard to say with the fruit juices.

Honey on average has an SG of 1.4
Water has 1.0
Juice might have been about 1.04

so
0.725
+ 1.2 * 1.0
+ 0.5 * 1.04
= 0.725
+ 1.2
+ 0.52
= 2.445 kg

0.725/1.4 = 0.518
+ 1.2
+ 0.5
= 2.218 Litres

2.445/2.218 = 1.102 sg

most wine yeasts will ferment this out dry, or dryish.
It really depends upon the alcohol tolerance of the wine.
Using a 14% yeast like D47 will drop over 100 points, to less than 1.000

perhaps if you had a 12% yeast or a 10% ale yeast or some such?

Dry meads work fine, they're quite tasty, especially if you lay em down for 12 months minimum.
I hope this helps.


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## MHB (5/1/11)

I don't know if I understand exactly what you have done, but if you have made the ingredients listed up to ~2.2 Litres (it is helpful if you give total volumes)
Just roughly I make your OG to be about 1.114, given that the "Sweet Yeast" will conk out at about 12% ABV meaning that you will be looking for a change in gravity of 90 points. 90 from your starting 114 leaving you finishing at 1.0245, or a bit over 6% sugar (W/V) say just over half as sweet as most fruit juice/soft drinks at around 10% sugar.

I suspect the yeast might struggle to get down that low, you have no nitrogen or other nutrients in there, a pinch of DAP or better yet yeast food would help.

MHB

PS KudaPucat Posted while I was finger counting
If the yeast is what I think it is then it will only reach 12% (the dry yeast in EC1118), assumed we were talking about 500mL jar of honey and juice at 10% sugar W/V. Otherwise very similar conclusions.
M


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## KudaPucat (5/1/11)

MHB said:


> PS KudaPucat Posted while I was finger counting
> If the yeast is what I think it is then it will only reach 12% (the dry yeast in EC1118), assumed we were talking about 500mL jar of honey and juice at 10% sugar W/V. Otherwise very similar conclusions.
> M


Yup :beer: I just like the maths 

Ummm EC-1118 is touted as having an ABV tolerance of 18% and I have empirical evidence that supports this.
So if he used that, it'll be drier than a nun's proverbial.
I'd hope he used something softer, else it'll need to be back-sweetened if dry meads are not favoured.


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## Airgead (5/1/11)

KudaPucat said:


> Yup :beer: I just like the maths
> 
> Ummm EC-1118 is touted as having an ABV tolerance of 18% and I have empirical evidence that supports this.
> So if he used that, it'll be drier than a nun's proverbial.
> I'd hope he used something softer, else it'll need to be back-sweetened if dry meads are not favoured.



Yep. My spec sheet for 1118 says 18% as well.

Either way - how dry it gets is entirely dependent on the alcohol tolerance of the yeast. If it has a high tolerance it will be dry if not it may end up sweet. Just how sweet is pretty much guesswork until its done if you don't know the OG and the yeast strain.

Yours may peg out a little early due to the lack of nutrients preventing sufficient yeast growth.

Mead works sweet or dry. It will be fine either way but if you want to aim for a particular target its best to know which direction your gun is pointing and how much powder you added... A hydrometer is a couple of bucks at the LHBS. There are calculators on gotmead.com that will give you a pretty good ballpark guess at the OG for free. Working out the yeast strain shouldn't be too hard.

Cheers
Dave


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## Tanga (5/1/11)

Ah, sorry. I didn't realise how unclear I was being. I didn't mean how sweet it would end up as if I let it ferment out to completion, but rather what was the _ideal_ sweetness for that kind of melomel - ie the ideal taste. I can stop the ferment at that point. I'm thinking it would be medium sweet? Sorry to make you guys do math you didn't need to do.

PS - I used the neutral oztops yeast. It says it's a wine yeast, so presumably it will end up pretty dry.


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## KudaPucat (5/1/11)

A quick google sent me back here! 
All hits that even suggested a possible tolerance likened OzTops yeast to either D47 (their semi-dry) or EC-1118 (dry) or mentioned being able to produce an alcohol of <=15%
So I think it'll ferment dry.
I'd let it. Then taste it. Then sit on it for a year then taste it. Then backsweeten if need be (my personal taste would be not to backsweeten). Make sure the yeast is dead when you do this though!
Of course if you want a lower alcohol content, then you should stop it early.
I have found that a FG of 1040 is sweet, dessert only - more than that is undrinkable.
I've not got enough data on values in between that and 995 though sorry.


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## MHB (6/1/11)

Sorry wasn't clear OzTops come with two yeasts Dry (EC1118) and a Sweet, that Tanga said she was using; it's the sweet one that I believe tops out at around 12%.
So I would be expecting a semi-sweet finish.

MHB


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## Airgead (6/1/11)

Tanga said:


> Ah, sorry. I didn't realise how unclear I was being. I didn't mean how sweet it would end up as if I let it ferment out to completion, but rather what was the _ideal_ sweetness for that kind of melomel - ie the ideal taste. I can stop the ferment at that point. I'm thinking it would be medium sweet? Sorry to make you guys do math you didn't need to do.
> 
> PS - I used the neutral oztops yeast. It says it's a wine yeast, so presumably it will end up pretty dry.



The ideal taste is whatever you like. If you like a dry wine then the ideal taste will be dry. If you like sweeter wines, the ideal will be sweet. I like them dry so pretty much all my meads are dry.

Cheers
Dave


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## Tanga (6/1/11)

Thanks MHB, that's excellent news. Looks like I'm going to have a sweet mead. I might syphon it out into a new bottle (2L) so it's chock full (and not on the yeast cake), and store it for a while. It'll be great to pull out next winter I think.

PS - I'm not sure what's with the oztops yeast hate. Sure, it's a dry yeast, but it's pretty robust for all that, and drops out beautifully.


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## KudaPucat (6/1/11)

Tanga said:


> <snip>
> PS - I'm not sure what's with the oztops yeast hate. Sure, it's a dry yeast, but it's pretty robust for all that, and drops out beautifully.



Ummm did I miss something? I didn't see any hate mentioned.
The only thing wrong with OZTops yeast that I can see is the lack of data.
I've seen it claimed that Oztops dry yeast actually is EC-1118, and that their semi-dry is in fact D47. Both good yeasts that I have used on numerous occasions. I don't know what their 'sweet' yeast is.
The fact is. if you like it, it's good. If it's easy, it's good. I like to have decent data so I can do the math better and make sure I'm going to like it.
Each honey is different, so I work with SG and FG as the required weight or volume of honey will change with each batch. The same goes for the water.
Once you've done a few batches whilst recording the gravities, you'll have an idea of what you like.

Something I've never seen discussed though :icon_offtopic: Sorry, is 
IMHO the FG you get is only a valid indicator of sweetness for a set percentage of alcohol.
ie 1040 is very sweet imho, but that's with 12-15% ABV.
1040 @ 5% ABV would have a lot less sugar I think, as there's less 'ultra light' alcohol (ethanol < 800g/Litre)

But this may be my Engineering mind picking up semantics... 5% ethanol/water = 989, 14% = 976 it doesn't seem like much, but the scale's not linear... so an SQ of 14% ABV will have more sugar than the same SG of 5%
I really think I should have started a new topic for this rambling.... sorry again. :icon_offtopic:


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## Tanga (9/1/11)

*Tasting Notes:* The honey balances well with the spices and the acidity. Still a little too syrupy I think, so I'm going another week. The light spritz from the oztop didn't add anything, and in fact was probably a negative, so no worries that it'll be a still mead. The apple and blackberry juice make it a golden pink in the glass. Slight medicinal note that I'm hoping will age out once I've got it bottled.


If I'd ever tasted a Jao I'd say this would be pretty close, but I'm guessing from other's tasting notes. This'll be a good winter warmer. To be drunk like port (in small glasses after a meal, etc). Certainly not a session drink. I'm going to keep it a bit sweet because that's it's ideal balance, so I'll probably siphon it off the lees when it reaches the right sweetness, pasteurise, and bottle in wine bottles with corks (I still have a few).

Anyone see any potential problems with that?

EDIT: Recipe is highly recommended, though I'd brew with a cider yeast next time, rather than my wine/cider 16% hybrid, that way there's no need to pasteurise.


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## Tanga (22/6/11)

Just to let people know it ended up being great. I only have a couple of small bottles left, and it goes down well with all except those that don't like liqueurs. It is definitely a sipping drink, and warms the cockles of my heart =). It is a clear straw colour which looks great, but I'm sad that the pink tinge is gone. I bottled in green glass, next time I'll try brown and hope it holds its colour. Definitely on the repeat list, though next time I'll try slightly more concentrated and a beer/cider/or perhaps even bread yeast. =)


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