# First Time Using Whirlfloc, Heaps Of Trub Low Eff



## Acasta (2/9/10)

Hey guys,
Today was my first time using whirlfloc and i had no idea what to expect., I just put it in at 15min from the end. After chilling i was draining off the beer into my fermenter and then when i got down lower there was stacks of trub. Im assuming its just grouped up more, because the liquid at the top was very clear, however the bottom of my 19L kettle was all full of trub. Probably about 3L of it. I tried to strain some of the liquid from it by using a strainer but i still came up with about 15L when the pot was full to the brim. The recipe was designed for 19L, but i accidentally filled to about 19.5. I got a OG of 1.050, and my efficiency was %66.7, which is pretty low compared to last week when i got %72ish doing the exact same process.
So yeah, any advice on using the whirfloc and getting the most liquor from my kettle after cooling.

Thanks alot.
Andy


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## manticle (2/9/10)

That's what whirlfloc does mate - coagulates proteins and makes them heavy so they drop out (similar to what gelatin does to yeast). Thus at the bottom is all the stuff you don't want in the beer rather than being equally spread around. That means it worked. Generally calculate your recipes to include trub loss in your batch size (batch size is total post boil volume, not volume into fermenter) and leave this stuff behind. Only bother straining if you can genuinely remove the gunk then reserve for a starter - otherwise water the plants with it. No matter if some trub/gunk gets in but you are aiming to minimise it.

Whirlfoc shouldn't affect efficiency though.


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## browndog (2/9/10)

Acasta said:


> Hey guys,
> Today was my first time using whirlfloc and i had no idea what to expect., I just put it in at 15min from the end. After chilling i was draining off the beer into my fermenter and then when i got down lower there was stacks of trub. Im assuming its just grouped up more, because the liquid at the top was very clear, however the bottom of my 19L kettle was all full of trub. Probably about 3L of it. I tried to strain some of the liquid from it by using a strainer but i still came up with about 15L when the pot was full to the brim. The recipe was designed for 19L, but i accidentally filled to about 19.5. I got a OG of 1.050, and my efficiency was %66.7, which is pretty low compared to last week when i got %72ish doing the exact same process.
> So yeah, any advice on using the whirfloc and getting the most liquor from my kettle after cooling.
> 
> ...




Andy, there is no way whirlfloc can affect your efficiency. And as for the trub in the bottom of the kettle, well that is what it made to do. The best thing you can do is leave it longer to settle so all the trub is as compacted as possible, but hey, don't worry about getting trub in your fermenter, it will do no harm.

cheers

Browndog

Jeez, ya gotta be quick round here these days.


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## Acasta (2/9/10)

Yeah, im not thinking that whirfloc lowered the eff, more that the trub i didn't add would have lowered the efficiency. If that makes sense.
Im doing a simple BIAB on stove 19L BigW pot that alot of people are doing. Im wondering if there are some good ways i can increase efficiency?
Thanks


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## argon (2/9/10)

Acasta said:


> Yeah, im not thinking that whirfloc lowered the eff, more that the trub i didn't add would have lowered the efficiency. If that makes sense.
> Im doing a simple BIAB on stove 19L BigW pot that alot of people are doing. Im wondering if there are some good ways i can increase efficiency?
> Thanks


What you're doing mate is removing all that crap from your ferementer. So at the end of the day... Same amount of beer, just fermented without heaps of trub. Alot of people think it's not a bad thing to have in fermenter...but minimizing doesn't hurt either... If anything slightly better. You'll notice that your yield from fermenter will be better, hence balancng the losses.
:icon_cheers:

edit: splng


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## manticle (2/9/10)

Acasta said:


> . Im wondering if there are some good ways i can increase efficiency?



To be honest, at this point I would try and aim for consistency rather than higher numbers. 66% is fine provided next time you don't get 54 or 82. Consistency will enable you to design your recipes with an expectation in mind. Once you get a handle on what to expect you can then, if you want, look at ways of upping the numbers (which mainly just means you might use 5 kg of grain rather than 5.8 in a recipe). Consistency is the most important thing for hitting target gravity, target volume, target IBU etc.

If you are getting 72 then 66, then start tailoring recipes to a mid point between the two(not amazingly different) until you work out a good mean average.


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## Screwtop (3/9/10)

Acasta said:


> Yeah, im not thinking that whirfloc lowered the eff, more that the trub i didn't add would have lowered the efficiency. If that makes sense.
> Im doing a simple BIAB on stove 19L BigW pot that alot of people are doing. Im wondering if there are some good ways i can increase efficiency?
> Thanks




Andy,

You're obviously talking Brewhouse Efficiency, not mash efficiency. 


> my efficiency was %66.7, which is pretty low compared to last week when i got %72ish doing the exact same process



Process maybe the same, would bet my left nut your recipe/hop amounts were not the same (worried now), amount of hops also determines the amount of trub, protiens should be the same given the same grist bill and boil. 

Screwy


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## Bongchitis (3/9/10)

I find you can easily use too much whirlfloc and get fluffy trub that doesn't settle quickly or in a dense pile on the bottom of the kettle. I used to use 1/2 a tablet per brew (20-23L) as directed but now use 1/4 tablet and my trub issues are no more. I do 90 min boils so perhaps this helps my break formation/floculation and I don't need as much whirlfloc??? Much tighter trub cone and much less trub into the cube for me.


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## unrealeous (3/9/10)

Bongchitis said:


> I find you can easily use too much whirlfloc and get fluffy trub that doesn't settle quickly or in a dense pile on the bottom of the kettle. I used to use 1/2 a tablet per brew (20-23L) as directed but now use 1/4 tablet and my trub issues are no more. I do 90 min boils so perhaps this helps my break formation/floculation and I don't need as much whirlfloc??? Much tighter trub cone and much less trub into the cube for me.


Interesting - I used a full tablet on a 30 litre brew over the weekend, did my usual whirlpool/settle - no trub cone at all - trub was all over the bottom and was light and fluffy as you describe. Perhaps this is my explanation. I'll try a little less next time.


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## rosswill (3/9/10)

I have recently sorted through this issue. The white fluffy stuff is cold break. I used to ues Koppafloc and thought more is better, right? Wrong. After whirpooling the top two thirds of the wort would be crystal clear, but the bottom third would be this cloudy boogery stuff. Far too much to just factor in as trub wastage.
After reading a similar thread to this, it was suggested to use less, not more. This helped, but still there was too much cloudy boogery stuff (about 5-6 litres) sitting at the bottom of the boiler. I used a fine hop sock to filter this last 5-6 litres. A real PITA.
Then one day I forgot to add the Koppafloc. After the whirlpool I could still see the cold break spread right throughout the wort, but I had a nice cone of hot break and hops at the bottom. Nice easy drain and only about a litre of trub left over. All the cold break into the fermenter. 

I now no longer use kettle finnings. All cold break goes into the fermenter, just as it does for those who use a plate or counterflow chiller. Simplified and sped up my brew day. All is good.


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## Scruffy (3/9/10)

Screwtop said:


> would bet my left nut (worried now)...



Screwy, don't worry! You can still wash, vacuum, clean and prepare your partner nice meals when they get home from work with the one ball...

My (same recipe) regular brew ends up 19/21L, I just bung the one whirlfloc tablet in there at the end of the boil and to be honest there's not much difference in the trub/efficiency if i forget the addition. i sacrifice a bit more clear liquid maybe.

I'm boiling 8kg mashed grain with pellets (120-200g's worth) which produces quite a lot of trub, I'm on about 76% brewhouse, every time. I don't think I'd be worried at the actual figures, rather getting more consistent results. If you're on 67%, that's fine! 

Get it consistent (this includes understanding your hardware), then work out how where you can improve (if you feel the need.)

You could suck up all the trub and buy a really flocculent yeast!


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## Acasta (3/9/10)

Yeah i guess the eff doesn't really matter. But im thinking maybe i should just not bother adding the whirlfloc to the kettle while im still doing these high gravity boils and just let the 'cold break' go into the fermenter. Because the wort should be highly concentrated its probably holding a lot of sugar.
So should i just write my 19L batches as 21L in beer smith and it will be better?
Also, how should i be calculating my efficiency? I just use beer smith and put in the OG.


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## manticle (3/9/10)

Acasta said:


> Yeah i guess the eff doesn't really matter. But im thinking maybe i should just not bother adding the whirlfloc to the kettle while im still doing these high gravity boils and just let the 'cold break' go into the fermenter.




Presuming you are chilling in the kettle then (if you are no chilling, the cold break will form in the cube). The trub is a combination of hot break proteins which you generally don't want in there and hop debris (which I haven't found to make a massive difference but it's unnecessary and probably better left behind).

I would keep using the whirlfloc and just account for it with recipe design and process. Look at whirlpooling as well. When you buy a coconut, you account for the fact that you only eat the insides. That extra 2 litres is not going to help your beer and there are better ways of increasing efficiency.


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## Acasta (3/9/10)

manticle said:


> Look at whirlpooling as well. ... there are better ways of increasing efficiency.


Yeah, i see what your saying. Im going to do full volume boils too soon which will make things easier.
I've been looking around and i can't really tell what whirlpooling is or how it works ect. Do you know anywhere i could get a good read?
What simple ways would you suggest i try to up it a little, if i can get better efficiency, i might as well. Then again, malt is cheap.


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## manticle (3/9/10)

How are you currently brewing? Is it higher gravity BIAB? If so, I suggest sending Rdjvun a message - he does all his brews this way and so could give specifics on that kind of system. Thisrty Boy can probably help too. Lots of info around on improving yiled though - everything from water temps to calcium in the mash to finer crushes.

I think for starters that efficiency will suffer with high grav mashes so adjusting to full volume should be a kick in the right direction. How do you crush your grain?

Whirlpooling is as simple as stirring in the centre of the pot in order to create a whirlpool. Long spoon or mash paddle, hold it straight down in the wort and stir in a tight circle. If you do it right a cone shape or vortex should form. Do for as long as you can (hot wort can make it hard) then let it sit. Break material gets drawn into it - combined with the action from the whirlfoc it should drop out into the centre bottom.

Then when you drain the kettle most of the trub stays away from the tap.


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## Acasta (3/9/10)

I tried this once for about 2 min when the wort was hot, but it did very little. Whats the best time in the cooling process to whirlpool?
I get my spec. malt crushed by LHBS, and i crush my base malt in a coffee grinder :unsure:


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## razz (3/9/10)

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Whirlpooling
This is my fav reference acasta, I particularly like the diagram at the bottom of the page.


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## felten (3/9/10)

According to http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/b....4/barchet.html you need 1-2g per 25L boil (assuming whirfloc is raw anyway). I weighed out my whirlfloc tablets and they are about 2-2.5g each, so half a tablet should be roughly 1g right. 

But if your boil volume is under 25L then half a tablet might be using too much, which can lead to problems as stated above. I've been having problems with trub on my last 2 batches as well but I haven't brewed for a while so I'm yet to work out where I'm screwing up.



Manticle said:


> Whirlpooling is as simple as stirring in the centre of the pot in order to create a whirlpool.


You mean the outside of the pot right?


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## ekul (3/9/10)

I was told that a quarter of a tablet is a good amount. I've tried this twice now and both times i've put far more wort into the fermenter, before that i was losing around 4-6L to break, now i only lose 1-2 L tops. THe wort is not as clear though because not all the cold break is dropping out.


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## manticle (3/9/10)

felten said:


> You mean the outside of the pot right?



No. Best whirlpool I ever got was creating a tight cone shaped whirlpool in the centre of the pot. The motion will make wort move around the outside but you want to creat a cone that pulls the debris in and down.

If I was just stirring to create a gentle circular wave (how I used to whirlpool) then I would go round the outside. Recently I was shown (Thanks Fents) a method of strirring vigourously in a tight circle (not aerating - spoon is deep, hard to describe through typing) close to the centre and creating an actual vortex rather than swirling liquid. Genuinely drops out trub and makes it more than just something to do because I read about it - you can see the difference.


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## Bongchitis (4/9/10)

manticle said:


> No. Best whirlpool I ever got was creating a tight cone shaped whirlpool in the centre of the pot. The motion will make wort move around the outside but you want to creat a cone that pulls the debris in and down.
> 
> If I was just stirring to create a gentle circular wave (how I used to whirlpool) then I would go round the outside. Recently I was shown (Thanks Fents) a method of strirring vigourously in a tight circle (not aerating - spoon is deep, hard to describe through typing) close to the centre and creating an actual vortex rather than swirling liquid. Genuinely drops out trub and makes it more than just something to do because I read about it - you can see the difference.




I think you may have just solved the rest of my trub issues right there manticle. I am having all sorts of trouble getting a good trub cone even with the reduced whirlfloc and I too have been gently gently on the whirlpool on the outer of the kettle to not aerate and smash up the flocs of trub. I use a keggle though and Thirsty Boy posted a while ago that he could never get a good cone in a keggle so perhaps I have my work cut out but I will give it a go and see if the situation improves.


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## manticle (4/9/10)

Maybe have a crakck with just water in your kettle first. Might seem silly to practice stirring methods but it's easier to demonstrate than explain (and no-ones pointing and watching). I use a keggle too.

I've only started doing it this way recently - Fents showed me when brewing at the July case swap. For once I actually worked out why it was called a cone and the difference at the bottom of the kettle was amazing.


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## Acasta (4/9/10)

ekul said:


> I was told that a quarter of a tablet is a good amount. I've tried this twice now and both times i've put far more wort into the fermenter, before that i was losing around 4-6L to break, now i only lose 1-2 L tops. THe wort is not as clear though because not all the cold break is dropping out.


Ok, ill definitely try this one! Only thing is, when breaking them up, theres a lot of waste.

Also, from reading that link, (just to clarify the method), i should wait until the wort is mostly chilled, start whirlpooling in a tight circle in the middle for ??? minutes, then let is rest for 15-30min before siphoning off wort?
Thanks.


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## DKS (4/9/10)

Thanks fellas, 
Two points out of that I'll try next batch.
Vigorous stir in the middle and halve the whirfloc. :icon_cheers: 
Daz


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## manticle (4/9/10)

Just to qualify - vigorous stir should still not splash, spoon is deep and held straight - not exactly in the middle but just a tight circle close to centre.


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## felten (4/9/10)

Thanks for explaining, that will be something I try next brew day.


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## nala (14/10/10)

manticle said:


> Just to qualify - vigorous stir should still not splash, spoon is deep and held straight - not exactly in the middle but just a tight circle close to centre.



I am going to buy a 50ltr S/S pot, would you advise putting in a tap or use a syphon for extracting the wort from the trub ?
If a tap was inserted is there a formula based on kettle diameter,as to how far from the bottom should the tap be placed.


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