# Single cube addition only? Is it tasty?



## Lionman (24/5/17)

Has anyone tried a no chill batch with only cube additions?

I was thinking of doing an all Mosaic IPA

23L
5KG Pale Malt
2KG Munich 1

100g Mosiac Cube
100g Mosaic Dry Hop

WLP090

~56IBU (give or take a lot)
7.7EBC
7.2%

Opinions?


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## Dae Tripper (24/5/17)

I do it very often. Works very well. My go to currently is about 230g of Amarillo at negative 10 minutes. Just started trying with pale ales with the same method, 50 grams of vic secret is delicious.


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## Lionman (24/5/17)

Nice. 230g seems a lot. Is that all in the cube? Will 100g of Mosaic be enough?

What temp are you aiming at for cubing?


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## Liam_snorkel (24/5/17)

yeah, done it a few times.

go with the original recipe, it will be delicious.
might not be bitter enough for the ABV but I reckon do it in the name of science.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/5/17)

Do it. 

My rough calc is generally IBU = ABV*10 when cubing.

At a minimum.


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## Lionman (24/5/17)

Just reading the cube hopping thread.

Maybe I should add all the mosaic to the cube but cool the wort a little to reduce the isomerization and increase flavour/aroma extraction.

Maybe cube at ~85c




Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Do it.
> 
> My rough calc is generally IBU = ABV*10 when cubing.
> 
> At a minimum.



The problem is, calculating IBUs of cube additions is very difficult.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (24/5/17)

Lionman said:


> Just reading the cube hopping thread.
> 
> Maybe I should add all the mosaic to the cube but cool the wort a little to reduce the isomerization and increase flavour/aroma extraction.
> 
> ...


I've tried the lowering temp before cubing thing - I found it too hard to come up with a replicable process and way to calculate it. And the beers I did it with had not any more aroma or flavour.

With the IBU calculation thing, I was using it as a 20min chilled calculation being where I'd land near. As it stands, changes in weather (in summer my garage is usually 40 degrees, in winter, 20) will have some effect, though again, who knows how to allow for it.

So I tend to make sure that if I'm making a 5.5% beer, my minimum calculated IBU (using the 20min chill calc as a rule of thumb) is 55 IBU, though I'll generally push that higher - 65-75.


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## tj2204 (24/5/17)

I use 15 mins steep/whirlpool in beersmith for my cube additions - this is with a transfer to cube approx 25 mins after flameout. I used to use 20 mins s/w but found I wasn't quite getting the level of bitterness I expected.


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## RdeVjun (24/5/17)

It's difficult to predict cube hopped bitterness but also flavour and aroma characteristics with a great deal of certainty, so just give it a whirl with your best guess and adjust accordingly once you have the resulting beer on tap. Sure, it's an almost glacial rate of progress but I've seen so many folk cut themselves to pieces on their recipator trying many different approaches, none of them any more valid than the other. On the upside, think of all the bandaids and sticking plaster you'll be saving.


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## Lionman (24/5/17)

Yeah, i use 15mins too. I have also found that using 20mins the IBU predictions are a little generous.

I think I will do the original recipe first, I'm sure it will be great. if it needs a bit more I will try upping it on a subsequent batch.

There will always be another batch.


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## Dae Tripper (25/5/17)

Lionman said:


> Nice. 230g seems a lot. Is that all in the cube? Will 100g of Mosaic be enough?
> 
> What temp are you aiming at for cubing?


It is a fair bit but Amarillo isn't really potent and it is for an IPA. 
I don't do it by temperature but by time. Anything more than 10 min could have risk of not heating the cube enough to kill everything. 

With your recipe you would need 150g to get to 50ibu at -10min in he cube. Sounds nice.


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## technobabble66 (25/5/17)




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## technobabble66 (25/5/17)

As previously stated, your recipe looks close enough to be worth going with, as is. 
Lots of peeps do solely cube hop with success. 
I use 20mins as the timing estimate, though that underestimates the resulting IBUs. However, 15mins overestimates for me, so I prefer to use 20mins and just target a slightly lower final IBU. 
Also, some varieties add extra "bitterness" from other compounds in the vegetal hops debris. So, as has been stated, you really need to give it a crack and see what works for your taste buds (not everyone picks up those vegetal elements). 
I also prefer to try to add the pellets *after* the wort, so the hot wort doesn't volatize off my precious hops oils. May or may not make much difference though [emoji57]


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## Schikitar (8/6/17)

Hi guys, just interested in your process here; do you hit flameout then let the wort sit until a certain temp is reached OR a fixed time before you transfer the wort to the cube? Additionally, do you have the hop pellets already in the cube before transferring or do you put them in after the transfer? Just curious how you logistically manage the 15 minute addition delay...


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## Lionman (8/6/17)

Schikitar said:


> Hi guys, just interested in your process here; do you hit flameout then let the wort sit until a certain temp is reached OR a fixed time before you transfer the wort to the cube? Additionally, do you have the hop pellets already in the cube before transferring or do you put them in after the transfer? Just curious how you logistically manage the 15 minute addition delay...



I stick the cube additions in the cube and fill the cube within a few minutes of flameout (element out?). The wort is in the high 90's going by my thermometer. I haven't measure the temp in the cube after its filled, but I'm guessing low to mid nineties.

My IIPA I did a few weeks ago, 10% ABV 120IBU with 120g of cube editions came out deliciously hoppy and fruity. Seriously one of the best beers I have tasted, and I am generally very critical of my own beers. Keg didn't last a week, family members smashed it.

The all cube addition Mosaic brew is in the fermenter now, the fermentation chamber smells like fruit juice. Im going to dry hop the bejesus out of it.

If you wanted to do a low IBU NEIPA then it may be a good idea to let the wort cool to below 85c before cubing to limit the isomerisation. If you want to extract some bitterness I wouldn't worry, cube it nice and hot to limit the chance of infection.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (8/6/17)

If you know the temperature of your cube when the hops are added and one other temperature / time point (say the time at which it hits 50 oC), you can use a simple logarithmic decay curve to calculate the isomerisation. I incorporated one such in my IBU calculator posted here a while ago.


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## Lionman (8/6/17)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> If you know the temperature of your cube when the hops are added and one other temperature / time point (say the time at which it hits 50 oC), you can use a simple logarithmic decay curve to calculate the isomerisation. I incorporated one such in my IBU calculator posted here a while ago.



that sounds interesting, i'll have to dig that up, cheers.


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## Schikitar (8/6/17)

Lionman said:


> My IIPA I did a few weeks ago, 10% ABV 120IBU with 120g of cube editions came out deliciously hoppy and fruity.


Firstly, do you have the recipe because I love IIPA's!? ;D

But yeah, I take your point, if going for higher IBU go straight to cube with hops already dropped in, if looking for lower IBUs then cool to about 85 first and then dump. Makes sense for a general approach to it.

I want to hear more about your beers!



Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> If you know the temperature of your cube when the hops are added and one other temperature / time point (say the time at which it hits 50 oC), you can use a simple logarithmic decay curve to calculate the isomerisation. I incorporated one such in my IBU calculator posted here a while ago.



Interesting, above my pay grade but none the less interesting!


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## Lionman (8/6/17)

Schikitar said:


> Firstly, do you have the recipe because I love IIPA's!? ;D
> 
> But yeah, I take your point, if going for higher IBU go straight to cube with hops already dropped in, if looking for lower IBUs then cool to about 85 first and then dump. Makes sense for a general approach to it.
> 
> I want to hear more about your beers!



Haha, happy to share. Think I had a thread about that one, ended up at this. The Caraaroma gives it a beautiful red hue.

23L

7.5KG Marris Otter
0.3KG Carapils
0.2KG Crystal 10L
0.1KG Caraaroma

30g Magnum - FWH 42IBU

40g Amarillo - Cube 16IBU
40g Mosaic - Cube 22IBU
40g Simcoe - Cube 24IBU

30g Amarillo - Dry Hop 5 Days
30g Mosaic - Dry Hop 5 Days
30g Simcoe - Dry Hop 5 Days

2L Starter - WLP090 San Diego Super Yeast

80% Mash Efficiency
2 Hour Boil (mainly due to extra sparging)
1.088 OG
1.017 FG
9-10% ABV depending on which calc you use.
100-120ish IBU depending on how you calculate the cube additions. (does it matter at this point?)


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## Schikitar (9/6/17)

That's a fairly hefty grain bill, thanks for sharing the recipe it sounds amazing! I'm going to give this one a crack once I've got a few brews under my belt! Cheers!


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## Randai (9/6/17)

Yeah I did a cube addition of vic secret at about 50g or more (with a bitter addition at 60m) and it was insanely aromatic for a very long time and quite bitter, so I'd say go for it with your favourite hop of great flavour and it should work out.


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## Danscraftbeer (9/6/17)

I've only tried a single cube hop addition once and it seemed to have something missing in the flavour. The bitterness level seemed right but too simple maybe. Not a great blend between the malt and hops. I've also brewed no bittering addition beer with all late, end of boil hop additions too. Same feeling. There was something missing, not a great blend.
I do believe (for my taste preference) that a small bittering addition (I now advocate for first wort hop) of say 1/3rd to 2/3rd of the total bittering level makes better flavoured beer. I'd even consider 20% of the total bitterness level as first wort hop etc.
Which still allows to go quite heavy with the late hops/cube hops etc.
but I have found/been persuaded to think that the first wort, or early addition favours the blend of Malt and Hops better than no bittering additions at all.
$0.02


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## Lionman (12/6/17)

Yeah its nearly done fermenteling, dry hops are in and I can see what you mean. Maybe it will be ok cold and carbed but it does seem to be missing something.

I usually FWH too. 30 to 40g of Magnum is my usual.


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## tj2204 (12/6/17)

Since originally replying to this thread I've started splitting my late additions between flameout (25 min whirlpool for calc) and cube (15 min whirlpool for calc) and I think that the hop flavour is more rounded and closer to where I want it.

My process now is:

kill the boil 
throw flameout hops in 
chuck lid on the kettle
set timer for 25 mins
drain kettle to cube with cube hops already added when timer goes off
Will keep experimenting, but happy with this schedule so far.


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## Bribie G (17/6/17)

Do you CubeAdders notice any difficulty in getting a good hot break in the kettle? I believe that even hop extract brews such as CUB main brands get a few pellets in the boil to provide nucleation points for the break to form.
.


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## Lionman (19/6/17)

Bribie G said:


> Do you CubeAdders notice any difficulty in getting a good hot break in the kettle? I believe that even hop extract brews such as CUB main brands get a few pellets in the boil to provide nucleation points for the break to form.
> .



I have only done one all cube which I just kegged last night. From memory, there was maybe less hot break than usual, but it wasn't completely absent. I have no idea on the ramifications of this.

Had a glass from the fermenter, very juicy. I would probably prefer more bitterness to be honest. I'll save judgment until its carbed up though.


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## troopa (24/6/17)

Great news is 50g of amarillo into the cube is fantastic in an APA..

Bad news

managed to suck up a tonne of hops from the fermenter after cube hopping (same container)... having great fun trying to clear the poppets on the keg with little to no luck.

Anyone got some knoweldge on what the heck to do?

Thanks


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## tj2204 (24/6/17)

troopa said:


> Great news is 50g of amarillo into the cube is fantastic in an APA..
> 
> Bad news
> 
> ...



Either siphon to another keg or pull the dip tube out and chuck a paint strainer bag over the end of it and secure with a cable tie.

Absolute pain in the arse when you get blocked poppets, I feel for you.


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## bignath (16/7/17)

I've done heaps of cube only hopped beers. Nelson Sauvin, Citra, Columbus/Tomahawk all work really well for this method. I find the best candidates are the big strong flavour/aroma hopes...say 10-12% and higher tend to work better for this as you need less for the same impact. Tried it with Cascade and some other low % hops and found the end result not as enjoyable.

Off the top of my head, 50g or so of any of these hops that I use, straight into the cube, and transfer the post boiled wort on top of them will generally yield great results. Dry hop during ferment for more aroma if you like...


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## Yob (17/7/17)

bignath said:


> I find the best candidates are the big strong flavour/aroma hopes...say 10-12% and higher tend to work better for this as you need less for the same impact..



welcome back...

I found the balance point at about 250g


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## bignath (17/7/17)

cheers yob!

250g..... in a single batch? tasty!


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