# Mother Of Vinegar



## Silo Ted (31/3/11)

Looking to capture some local Acetobacter, and grow a 'mother' starter, with a view to making tasty vinegars. Anyone done it from scratch ? 

Or is this an aspect of microbiology that any sane brewer should not be home-labbing?


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## Greg.L (31/3/11)

I'm trying cider vinegar production at the moment with some cider that got too much air. The problem is where to keep it - it needs warmth but is too stinky to keep in the house, and can't go in the cellar with my cider, right now its on the verandah in buckets but the nights are a bit cold.

I read that the way to test it is to do an acid titration, diluted x 10. When it gets to 5% (50g/L) its nearly ready.

Greg


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## ekul (31/3/11)

what about capturing some from a fruit fly?


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## QldKev (31/3/11)

Why not get some 'Bragg' vinegar, it comes with the mother still in it. You get bottle of the best vinegar available, and a decent vinegar mother.

QldKev


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## Silo Ted (31/3/11)

ekul said:


> what about capturing some from a fruit fly?



The 'from scratch' aspect is exactly what I want to do. Thinking of a sugar/water solution and some fresh figs in a bottle to attract the flies, 'infect' the solution and grow a mother that way. No added vinegar, noting but a trap. 



QldKev said:


> Why not get some 'Bragg' vinegar, it comes with the mother still in it.



See above. Might as well make it as hard as possible for myself  But yea, quite interested in harnessing the 'local strain' of my area, for no particular reason other than it being a fun experiment.


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## unrealeous (31/3/11)

Silo Ted said:


> See above. Might as well make it as hard as possible for myself  But yea, quite interested in harnessing the 'local strain' of my area, for no particular reason other than it being a fun experiment.


Well then, the gloves are off I see. Good for you.

The question then becomes - What's the best way to get a [Edit] Acto infection? I'd transfer a couple of liters of freshly brewed beer into a sterile fermenter and make sure there is plenty of oxygen in the head-space. Glad wrap over the top - Just a matter of time before it starts growing.


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## Nick JD (31/3/11)

Which acetobacter makes the best vinegar?


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## Malted (31/3/11)

I hope you can get the 'wort' be it cider, red or white wine for next to nix otherwise it may be cheaper just to buy small bottles of balsamic or wine vinegar when required.


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## Silo Ted (31/3/11)

Wouldn't know, Nick. 

The small eels / worms that spawn in unprocessed vinegar are Turbatrix aceti and there is an Acetobacter species aceti. 

I suspect that what I may find is that different regional trappings may result in bacterial variation, similar to sourdough starter.


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## Silo Ted (31/3/11)

Malted said:


> I hope you can get the 'wort' be it cider, red or white wine for next to nix otherwise it may be cheaper just to buy small bottles of balsamic or wine vinegar when required.



It's not really about the cost savings, but the DIY aspect. Also something to occupy my mind when not brewing. 

The cider and wort obviously very cheap, and Dan's sometimes sell wine for under $3 a bottle, though I would spend a bit more on plonk. Good quality in = good quality out.


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## Eater (31/3/11)

Ok because i have no idea what you are all talking about, has anyone got a good link for data from the net on this subject?

(yes i can google fu, but trying to find "good" info still relies on a humans interpretation)


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## Nick JD (31/3/11)

Eater said:


> Ok because i have no idea what you are all talking about, has anyone got a good link for data from the net on this subject?
> 
> (yes i can google fu, but trying to find "good" info still relies on a humans interpretation)



The twenty-odd acetobacter species eat ethanol and produce ethanoic acid aka acetic acid aka vinegar. They need oxygen to do this.

You can buy a culture of them in various types of vinegar (red wine, cider etc). 

Like yeast (and often found with yeast) they are present in the breath you just took, but are found in concentration on things that are rotting, or eat rotting things - especially sour ones.

That's about it really.


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## Greg.L (31/3/11)

Silo Ted said:


> The cider and wort obviously very cheap, and Dan's sometimes sell wine for under $3 a bottle, though I would spend a bit more on plonk. Good quality in = good quality out.



Commercial cider and red wine contain SO2 so won't work very fast. better to make your own basic cider with suphite-free apple juice.


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## Nick JD (31/3/11)

I'd get some eels - that would creep people out! 

"Here, splash some of these nematodes on your chips..." YUM!


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## Silo Ted (31/3/11)

Eater said:


> Ok because i have no idea what you are all talking about, has anyone got a good link for data from the net on this subject?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_of_vinegar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_eels



Greg.L said:


> Commercial cider and red wine contain SO2 so won't work very fast. better to make your own basic cider with suphite-free apple juice.



Many organic wines contain far less sulpher dioxide I think. Alternatively I am getting a bottle of home made red tonight from an Italian guy I was chatting to yesterday, if its crap ill save it for vinegar. 

And yes NickJD, the wriggly little eels will be used for maximum shock value wherever I can. Might save them all in one big jar and leave it on my desk at work. :lol:


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## Greg.L (31/3/11)

Eater said:


> Ok because i have no idea what you are all talking about, has anyone got a good link for data from the net on this subject?
> 
> (yes i can google fu, but trying to find "good" info still relies on a humans interpretation)



Andrew Lea has some very good cider resources at cider.org.uk.
His page on juice and vinegar is at http://cider.org.uk/part6.htm


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## SuiCIDER (1/4/11)

I was looking to do this too, but I have no where to put it! I didn't want a concentration of acetobacter in my brewing area  Let us know how you go!


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## sirhendo (1/4/11)

Any and all vinegar questions, throw them my way. My brother is a professional 'craft' vinegar maker and I worked for him for a year so I'm pretty well versed.

The first rule of aceterbacter....lots of heat + lots of oxygen. Do to your 'wort' (though it's actually called a 'mash') of wine, beer, cider or anything alcoholic exactly what you've been told NOT to do. That's what makes great vinegar.

Cheers!

Hendo


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## jimmysuperlative (1/4/11)

forget capturing acetobacter ...I want to know how best to kill it!!?

Tell me, sirhendo, what's the best way to stifle it ...I attribute most of my failed brews to it. :angry:


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## Silo Ted (1/4/11)

sirhendo said:


> Any and all vinegar questions, throw them my way.



Cool. 

So does he use the same mother source for all styles of vinegar, or one for apple, one for wine etc?

And if I wildharvested for a mother in Sydney and say one in the blue mountains, would the two mothers impart different flavours in the same base batch of mash?


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## unrealeous (1/4/11)

jimmysuperlative said:


> forget capturing acetobacter ...I want to know how best to kill it!!?
> 
> Tell me, sirhendo, what's the best way to stifle it ...I attribute most of my failed brews to it. :angry:


I can't grow without the presence of oxygen, that's why you'll only see it on the top of your brew - so don't open the lid of your fermenter ever. Not even to dry hop (well maybe this is the exception  ). And if you rack to another vessel, flush the headspace with CO2.


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## jimmysuperlative (1/4/11)

unrealeous said:


> I can't grow without the presence of oxygen, that's why you'll only see it on the top of your brew - so don't open the lid of your fermenter ever. Not even to dry hop (well maybe this is the exception  ). And if you rack to another vessel, flush the headspace with CO2.




What about it taking hold in fermenters and hoses? Where is it most likely to be "found" in the household? Is it an airborne contaminant ...borne on dust etc?

What effects would it have on homebrew? taste? smell? etc?


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## Silo Ted (1/4/11)

Carried by Fruit flies, apparently. Dont let them root on your demijohn lip.


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## jimmysuperlative (1/4/11)

Silo Ted said:


> Carried by Fruit flies, apparently. Dont let them root on your demijohn lip.




I don't know fruit fly anatomy, but ...talk about up to your nuts in guts h34r:


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## sirhendo (2/4/11)

Silo Ted said:


> Cool.
> 
> So does he use the same mother source for all styles of vinegar, or one for apple, one for wine etc?
> 
> And if I wildharvested for a mother in Sydney and say one in the blue mountains, would the two mothers impart different flavours in the same base batch of mash?



We use one mother for red wine vinegar and another for white wine and cider vinegar.

Essentially they are the same strain, you just don't want any red wine colour going into a white product.

With aceterbacter, there aren't really multiple strains like there is for yeast that impart different flavours - not to say that there isn't, it just doesn't really make a difference. Aceterbacter is a prokaryote (i.e. bacteria) which is a much simpler life form than yeast which is a eukaryote.

I hope that helps!

Hendo


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## sirhendo (2/4/11)

jimmysuperlative said:


> forget capturing acetobacter ...I want to know how best to kill it!!?
> 
> Tell me, sirhendo, what's the best way to stifle it ...I attribute most of my failed brews to it. :angry:



As I've often said around here, the sour off-flavour you're getting probably isn't aceterbacter & acetic acid....it's probably lactobacillus and lactic acid. They are very similar and it takes a keen palette to spot the difference.

Poor sanitation is usually the cause of this.

My tip (and I don't want to go off topic here on a sanitation discussion), to kill all bacteria effectively, a Table Spoon of Citric Acid, a couple of teaspoons of PMS (Potassium Metabisulphite) in warm water is awesome....though smelly.

PMS on its own is not as effective a sanitiser than when it's mixed with a mild acid....i.e. you need an acid and a salt to create the sulphur which is what kills the nasties.

Cheers!

Hendo


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## Silo Ted (2/4/11)

sirhendo said:


> With aceterbacter, there aren't really multiple strains like there is for yeast that impart different flavours - not to say that there isn't, it just doesn't really make a difference. Aceterbacter is a prokaryote (i.e. bacteria) which is a much simpler life form than yeast which is a eukaryote.




On the subject of acetobactoer taxonomy. It appears that there are at least 20 species according to a volume of the Journal of Applied Microbiology, so how many are viable vinegar producers?. While it's all pure theory, wondering which one(s). Limited googling might suggest that A. aceti is the culprit.


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## sirhendo (2/4/11)

Silo Ted said:


> On the subject of acetobactoer taxonomy. It appears that there are at least 20 species according to a volume of the Journal of Applied Microbiology, so how many are viable vinegar producers?. While it's all pure theory, wondering which one(s). Limited googling might suggest that A. aceti is the culprit.



A good question though outside of my limited knowledge of aceterbacter. Will check with my brother and find out for you


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## Greg.L (2/4/11)

sirhendo said:


> As I've often said around here, the sour off-flavour you're getting probably isn't aceterbacter & acetic acid....it's probably lactobacillus and lactic acid. They are very similar and it takes a keen palette to spot the difference.
> 
> Poor sanitation is usually the cause of this.
> 
> ...



Its easy to tell the difference between acetic acid and lactic acid by the smell. Acetobacter and acetic acid are usually accompanied by ethyl acetate, together they give the characteristic vinegar smell. Lactic acid isn't volatile so you won't smell it at all, I presume you mean lactobacillus causing off flavours, something citric acid will encourage. Citric and pms together are used for keeping containers sanitised when not being used, you don't want to put citric in wine or it might cause off flavours.
If you are getting acetic taints it means you're letting too much oxygen get in there, use a better container or bottle sooner. Acetobacter are everywhere but can't thrive without O2.


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