# Best Ag Plisener Recipe? Malts, Hops, Yeast Etc?



## grinder (20/6/07)

Have made a couple of pilseners in the past but they have all been substandard in my opinion.
I am now on a quest to get the best pilsener recipe.
I am thinking Urquell, JS pils, bohemian Pils etc
Please give me some recommendations on the best malts, hops, quantities etc
I want my next pilsener to be worth it!

Cheers


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## Stuster (20/6/07)

Grinder, you might find some answers in the Style of the Week threads on Bohemian Pilsner and German Pilsner. There are also a few nice recipes in the recipe section.

Hope you find your holy grail. :chug:


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## goatherder (20/6/07)

German malts, German yeast. German noble hops (hallertauer, tettnanger etc) for German pils, Czech Saaz for Bo pils. Anything else is a second best in my opinion.


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## Thommo (20/6/07)

I'll second Goatherder's advice...German Malts. Weyerman's Pilsner and some Carapils.

All you need in my opinion. (Apart from the right hops and yeast, but you know what I mean.)


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## leeboy (20/6/07)

My last few pilsners have been a blend btw german and bohemian. I've used 1/2 german pils malt, 1/2 aussie export pilsner malt. With 0.5kg carapils and 0.5kg wheat.

Bittered with hallaetaur (spelling sorry)
Flavour Saaz
Aroma Hallaetaur + Saaz

Taken it to a total of 32 IBU, 20 through initial bittering.

Used both urquell wyeast in the past and saf34. Both work well for this style.
End Product especially if temp control on fridge is great. Very crisp with a little bit fo that saaz funk blended with great hallautauer aroma.
Goodluck


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## Kai (20/6/07)

There's no great secret to pilsener recipes. You can make a stunning one with 100% pils malt, any lager yeast (and a few ales for that matter) and any single noble hop (or equivalent). All you need is good brewing practice.


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## Zwickel (20/6/07)

If you dont mind brewers, Id like to post my recipe here:

First Id like to mention, that its important to do a stepping mash.

Take 100% Pilsener malt, immerse at 35C,
heat up to 52C and rest for 20min. (thats only to get some amino acids as nutrition for the yeast)
proceed to 63C and rest for 45 to 60min (depends how dry youd like the beer to be)
step up to 72C and rest for 20min,
go to 78C and finish.

Boil the wort for ~90min., add bittering hops, such as Northern Brewer or Magnum 5-10min. after the boil begins, add aroma hops after 75min.

In my case for example, Im taking for a 60l batch ~80g Magnum at 13% AA and 35g fine Saazer arome hops at 2,2% AA.

Cool down the wort to <12C and pitch at least an amount of 1% of the whole batchsize bottom fermenting viscous yeast.

Leave the batch fermenting for around 1 week at 8-10C and then start racking and successive go down to a temp of 0C over 5 days.

Thats all...Prost :beer:


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## bugwan (20/6/07)

Prost Zwickel  

Getting off topic here - in terms of a multiple step mash such as this, does anyone see a problem with mashing in at say a 3:1 ratio to hit original temps and then using a constantly moving immersion heater to hit the subsequent temps?

I stuffed up the second step of my weizen on the weekend and undershot it (66) by about 4 degrees. Rather than drain the HLT and stuff up my next step, I stuck the immersion heater in the mash and stirred constantly until I hit 66 on the dot. Worked a treat! Best temp accuracy I've had in a long time :unsure: 

Would stepping up through Zwickel's 5 steps above work effectively?


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## Kai (21/6/07)

bugwan said:


> Prost Zwickel
> 
> Getting off topic here - in terms of a multiple step mash such as this, does anyone see a problem with mashing in at say a 3:1 ratio to hit original temps and then using a constantly moving immersion heater to hit the subsequent temps?



Sounds like the easiest way to do it to me.


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## Zwickel (21/6/07)

bugwan, I dont see any problems with your method, should work fine.

For a Weizen there is no benefit to do so many steps, thats only important for a Pilsener or Lager.

Because of the low fermenting temperature, one has to support the yeast grow with some nutritions, build at 52C, not so with top fermenting yeasts.

At 63C the beta amylase is working best, that means, most of the starch will be converted into fermentable sugar, resulting a very dry beer and at 72C, the alpha amylase will produce only a little unfermentable sugar that is left. In the end, the only arome one may taste in the Pilsener will be out of the hops.

Not so the top fermenting Weizen.

Anyway top fermenting yeasts are fermenting much faster, dont need so much nutritions.
Weizen beer is anyway a aromatic beer, aromatized by the yeast, such like esters and diacetyl.
So one may do only one single rest at 66C for both enzymes, no problem.

Cheers


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## matti (21/6/07)

> heat up to 52C and rest for 20min. (thats only to get some amino acids as nutrition for the yeast)
> proceed to 63C and rest for 45 to 60min (depends how dry youd like the beer to be)
> step up to 72C and rest for 20min,
> go to 78C and finish


.

I am Noonanite.

Grab the heavies and do a decoction after 52 Degrees ar 20 min.
That would to help raise the temp as well.

As for Malt I am happy with 50 german and 50 pecent australian.

Hallertau mittelfrau and Saaz and WLP830 

The decoction and the yeast does it for me.

Bloody beautiful


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## blackbock (21/6/07)

Zwickel said:


> bugwan, I dont see any problems with your method, should work fine.
> 
> For a Weizen there is no benefit to do so many steps, thats only important for a Pilsener or Lager.
> 
> ...



Zwickel, out of interest what brand malts do you use for your Pilseners? Are there any malts available for you to use that we can't get? The only German malt available here is Weyermann. In the past people have used Hoepfner, but that's not available any more.

Looking at your mash schedule it looks like you make fairly dry Pilseners. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the 52C step provides yeast with nutrition. I was under the impression that the 52C step was to break down haze-forming proteins?

Cheers mate B)


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## DJR (21/6/07)

blackbock said:


> Looking at your mash schedule it looks like you make fairly dry Pilseners. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the 52C step provides yeast with nutrition. I was under the impression that the 52C step was to break down haze-forming proteins?



A protein rest breaks down proteins into amino acids and shorter chains - increasing Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN) which is needed for the yeast to grow. Most modern malts have a high level of modification which basically means their TSN (total soluble nitrogen) is high - which means FAN should be high without doing a protein rest. Depends on the modification - less than 38 Kolbach probably needs a step mash or decoction, higher than 40 Kolbach there would be little need (and above 45 or so you would run into chill haze issues or the need to add adjunct to lower the FAN of the wort), in the middle "grey area" it's up to the brewer :beer:


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## bconnery (21/6/07)

I can speak very highly of this one from sluggerdog that was in the QLD xmas case...



http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=260


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## blackbock (21/6/07)

So is FAN good or bad? :unsure:


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## T.D. (21/6/07)

DJR said:


> A protein rest breaks down proteins into amino acids and shorter chains - increasing Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN) which is needed for the yeast to grow. Most modern malts have a high level of modification which basically means their TSN (total soluble nitrogen) is high - which means FAN should be high without doing a protein rest. Depends on the modification - less than 38 Kolbach probably needs a step mash or decoction, higher than 40 Kolbach there would be little need (and above 45 or so you would run into chill haze issues or the need to add adjunct to lower the FAN of the wort), in the middle "grey area" it's up to the brewer :beer:



:huh: Lucky I've already had my morning coffee... :lol: 


Re the hopping of a Pils (I'm talking more about a *real* Pils, ie Bohemian  ), what's everybody's view on late additions? Quite a few recipes and discussions I've seen don't advocate a hop addition after 20-30mins. Apparently Urquell's last addition is 40mins (or something like that). I've always put 1g/L or so in quite late in the boil (say 5mins). Now I'm wondering if this is the best way to hop a pilsner. Any thoughts?


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## warrenlw63 (21/6/07)

Very relevant T.D. and IIRC AndrewQld was saying he doesn't add any hops beyond 20 mins from flameout? (Andrew may comment here).

Sort of makes you wonder if we're all being too heavy handed with our flavour/aroma hops?

I've even heard from somewhere that escapes me that a good pilsner can be had by adding all of your hops (and no more) at the 30 minutes from flameout mark. Would requiure a lot of hops though.  

FAN ?? Keep it for hot days. :lol: 

Warren -


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## therook (21/6/07)

T.D. said:


> :huh: Lucky I've already had my morning coffee... :lol:
> Re the hopping of a Pils (I'm talking more about a *real* Pils, ie Bohemian  ), what's everybody's view on late additions? Quite a few recipes and discussions I've seen don't advocate a hop addition after 20-30mins. Apparently Urquell's last addition is 40mins (or something like that). I've always put 1g/L or so in quite late in the boil (say 5mins). Now I'm wondering if this is the best way to hop a pilsner. Any thoughts?




T.D,

I know Andrew is big on the 60,40 and 20 minute additions, but i cant find his post

Maybe he will be able to answer for you.

Rook

Shit Warren, you beat me to it


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## neonmeate (21/6/07)

warrenlw63 said:


> Sort of makes you wonder if we're all being too heavy handed with our flavour/aroma hops?



if you want to make something along the lines of Warsteiner, Staropramen, etc (ie yellow and not too obtrusive on its way down your throat) then yes! 
commercial breweries want to keep costs down ... we don't have to. IMO a good pilsener NEEDS hop aroma. and bitterness (like 35IBU at the very least). otherwise stick with yer james boags and hahn premium.

the other thing to consider is that breweries like PU have access to the best and freshest hops possible - we need to add a lot more hops to get the same aroma effect


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## AndrewQLD (21/6/07)

therook said:


> T.D,
> 
> I know Andrew is big on the 60,40 and 20 minute additions, but i cant find his post
> 
> ...



Rook, here's a link to the thread you mentioned above hop additions, plenty of debate and info in there.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Zwickel (21/6/07)

blackbock said:


> Zwickel, out of interest what brand malts do you use for your Pilseners? Are there any malts available for you to use that we can't get? The only German malt available here is Weyermann. In the past people have used Hoepfner, but that's not available any more.


Weyermann would be fine, but Id say, just take whatever you may get.
Another important matter is the mash Ph, try to get down to 5,3-5,5.
Depends on your water, may be you have to use some sour malt to lower the Ph.



> Looking at your mash schedule it looks like you make fairly dry Pilseners. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the 52C step provides yeast with nutrition. I was under the impression that the 52C step was to break down haze-forming proteins?


DJR explained already everything, Im only interested in getting amino acids to support yeast grow, I dont have any issue with haze.

Cheers


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## tangent (21/6/07)

i've had a long conversation with Zwickle over this topic and have changed some of my brewing practice for pilsners with excellent results already.
I'm still not step mashing to the extent that Zwickle does yet as i'd really like to use direct heat to step up like his brew-rig rather than infusions and decoctions like i do now with a plastic tun.

I now dough in at 63-64C and do an extended mashout that sits at about 69-70C for a while before sparging.
I don't use any crystal malts at all. Only a little melanoidin.
I don't use any flavour hops, just Tetts at 60 after a 30 minute boil (90 mins total) and Saaz at 1minute and flameout.
I re-circulate more and am transferring less gunk into the kettle.


edit - "German malts, German yeast. German noble hops (hallertauer, tettnanger etc) for German pils, Czech Saaz for Bo pils. Anything else is a second best in my opinion."GoatHerder <- exactly!

My current lagers and pilsners have been the best I've ever made so far, malty but dry. I woke up next to half a glass of it this morning


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## neonmeate (21/6/07)

Zwickel said:


> Im only interested in getting amino acids to support yeast grow, I dont have any issue with haze.



why not pitch more yeast in the first place? surely with a pilsener you want to minimise the yeast growth phase?


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## Zwickel (21/6/07)

neonmeate said:


> why not pitch more yeast in the first place? surely with a pilsener you want to minimise the yeast growth phase?


of course you may pitch a lot of yeast, but it makes a big difference just to have a lot of yeast in, or you have a little less yeast but in a very good health.

In case of over pitching the batch, you may get just a lot of slurry in the end, not sure your final gravity will reach the desired value and even the danger to get an autolysis will be high. 

For example my batch starts wit an OG of 1048 and ends at <1008; if the yeast is not very viable, then it may end at >1012, even if you have used a lot of yeast.

Thats just from my experience.

Cheers :beer:


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## Darren (21/6/07)

Zwickel.

FG 1.008 or FG 1.012 usually equates to mash temps rather than yeast health, especially with Wey malt.

Prefer a 1.012 pils myself.


cheers

Darren

EDIT: Unless you are pitching onto the yeast cake, over pitching a lager is almost impossible for the average HBer


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## Zwickel (21/6/07)

Hi Darren,

especially homebrewers have long periods between the batches, meanwhile the yeast get stored in the fridge.
After a certain time the yeast is not very viable anymore, even if you have a a lot of it.
Anyway, even bottom fermenting yeasts dont like to work at very low temps, they get forced to it.
So only if the yeast is in good conditions, it will do theire work til the end.

To avoid any fermenting flaw, I do a 52C rest all the time, the yeast is very thankful for that.

Cheers :beer:


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## goatherder (21/6/07)

How about just adding yeast nutrient Zwickel? Could you get the same results and skip the 52C rest?


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## Zwickel (21/6/07)

goatherder said:


> How about just adding yeast nutrient Zwickel? Could you get the same results and skip the 52C rest?


hmmm... maybe youre right, I havent try that yet.
I wont say that a 52 rest will be indispensable, or will be urgently necessary, *no*, thats just a courtesy for my yeast.
It doesnt bother me to add 20min. to my my mash schedule, thats all.

Prost


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## Darren (21/6/07)

Zwickel said:


> Hi Darren,
> 
> especially homebrewers have long periods between the batches, meanwhile the yeast get stored in the fridge.
> After a certain time the yeast is not very viable anymore, even if you have a a lot of it.
> ...




Aha,explains the 1.008 FG. The B amylase will be very active at those temps. No need for the rest unless you like dry beer (dont worry plenty here do). Myself I enjoy a malty beer. 1.012 sehr gu"t
Poor German I know.

cheers

darren

PS, Hazy beers taste better


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## tangent (22/6/07)

1.008 is damn low!
a friend of mine is having problems with high FGs
some beers stopping at 1.020 or even higher.
Turns out his thermometer is 5C out! So his 66C mash is more like 71C


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## johnno (22/6/07)

I made this a couple of years ago.
I'm pretty sure it is the Pilsner Urquell recipe out of Clone brews.

i missed my OG and volume as I had just started AG then, but a side by side comparison with an original was pretty close.

Type: All Grain
Date: 31/03/2005 
Batch Size: 22.00 L
Brewer: Johnno 
Boil Size: 28.31 L Asst Brewer: The 3 destroyers 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Johnno's equipment 
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 
Taste Notes: 

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.25 kg Pilsner (Hoepfner) (3.3 EBC) Grain 89.3 % 
0.45 kg Caramel Malt Light (Hoepfner) (25.6 EBC) Grain 9.5 % 
0.06 kg Munich Malt (Hoepfner) (17.7 EBC) Grain 1.3 % 
65.00 gm Saaz [3.50%] (90 min) Hops 28.0 IBU 
35.00 gm Saaz [3.50%] (40 min) Hops 12.4 IBU 
28.00 gm Saaz [3.00%] (3 min) Hops 1.2 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Pilsen Lager (Wyeast Labs #2007) Yeast-Lager 


cheers
johnno


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## randyrob (22/6/07)

What about something like this????

=======================================================


A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 25.00 Wort Size (L): 25.00
Total Grain (kg): 6.80
Anticipated OG: 1.051 Plato: 12.66
Anticipated EBC: 7.1
Anticipated IBU: 34.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.4 0.30 kg. CaraPilsner France 1.035 20
73.5 5.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
22.1 1.50 kg. TF Flaked Maize UK 1.040 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 2.50 9.8 60 min.
85.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 2.50 24.9 45 min.
25.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 2.50 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP800 Pilsner Lager


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## agraham (22/6/07)

Thanks for the info zwickel, i may use a 52 degree step for the next pilsner on the menu.


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## Darren (22/6/07)

Zwickel,

How are you raising your temps frpm 52 up to 66C? How long does it take?

You a filterer are you not? Would that not remove any protein haze anyhow?

Modern day malts don't need the 52 rest IMHO.

cheers

Darren


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## Zwickel (22/6/07)

gday mates



Darren said:


> Zwickel,
> 
> How are you raising your temps frpm 52 up to 66C? How long does it take?


Im just heating up by a gas burner; my software limits the ratio by 1/min.


> You a filterer are you not? Would that not remove any protein haze anyhow?


so far Im filtering the half of my brews; for the other half Im doing an experiment right now, Im adding Kieselgur (dunno what the translation is). If there is time enough for maturing (>4 weeks), I dont need to filter the beer, the kieselgur does a great job, extremly clear beer.


> Modern day malts don't need the 52 rest IMHO.



that may be true, on many books one can read so, but I get better results with doing the 52 rest.
There is a split opinion on that, some yeast lovers they swear on a 52 rest, some brewers not, may be a kind of philosophy.

In my case, I can see an obvious advantage and to say it in Aussie language: I love that little buggers  

Cheers mates


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## sluggerdog (22/6/07)

My latest and IMO in my top 2-3 pilsners (probably a little low on the IBU for some but it works for me) 

You don't need to add in the Pale Malt, I was just trying to see if it made any difference, it didn't. Just substitute it for more Weyermann Pilsner.


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 40.00 L 
Boil Size: 45.13 L
Estimated OG: 1.044 SG
Estimated Color: 9.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 25.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
5250.00 gm Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 65.2 % 
2000.00 gm Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.Grain 24.8 % 
400.00 gm Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 5.0 % 
400.00 gm Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5Grain 5.0 % 
40.00 gm Saaz B [6.70%] (60 min) Hops 17.0 IBU 
25.00 gm Saaz B [6.70%] (20 min) Hops 6.4 IBU 
25.00 gm Saaz B [6.70%] (5 min) Hops 2.1 IBU 
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
2.00 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 75.0 minMisc 
1 Pkgs Copenhagen Lager Yeast (White Labs #WLPYeast-Lager


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## hockadays (22/6/07)

Darren said:


> Zwickel,
> 
> How are you raising your temps frpm 52 up to 66C? How long does it take?
> 
> ...




I found that weyermann bohemium Pils malt needed the 52degc rest as it's not as modified as the normal pils..When I didn't I always found chill haze but with the normal pils a single infusion worked just fine...just my experience though..


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## grinder (22/6/07)

randyrob said:


> What about something like this????
> 
> =======================================================
> A ProMash Recipe Report
> ...



Looks like everybody is recommending step mash or decoction mash. Can you produce a good pils with a single infusion mash?


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## Ross (22/6/07)

grinder said:


> Looks like everybody is recommending step mash or decoction mash. Can you produce a good pils with a single infusion mash?



Absolutely  Last years Qld State winner (gold medal) Pilsner & champion beer of show was a single infusion mash. It also went on to win the Pilsner class at ANAWBS. (Think it did pretty well in the Nationals as well). Unfortunately, it wasn't one of mine  

cheers Ross


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## Ray_Mills (22/6/07)

This is a great beer, and if you dont like this pilsener you just dont like beer hehe
This won the Nationals for me in 2004, and beer has not changed that much since then.
Ray



Category: 07. PALE LAGER 
Style: North German Pilsener 
Recipe Name: North German Pilsener # 2004 
Brewer's Name: Ray Mills 
Brewing Method: Mash 
Starting Gravity: 1.050 
Ending Gravity: 1.012 
Alcohol (w/w%): 5% 
Bitterness (IBU): 38.5 
Colour (SRM): 3.6 
Specification Comments: This beer should be a nice clean bitter Pilsener (a little more bitter than a normal Pilsener)
Simple to make and great tastes 
Size of Batch: 22 
Batch Size Unit: Liters 
Extract Efficiency: 65% 
Fermentables: 5.10 kg German Pils Malt
.28 kg Cara Pils 
Hop Additions: 22 grams Perle 9.4% AA 90 minutes boil
25 grans Tettnanger 4.7% AA 20 minutes
17 grams Tettnanger 4.7% AA 5 minutes 
Wort Preparation: Single infusion mash at 67 c for 90 minutes
Flood sparge of 45 minutes at 77 C 
Boiling and Cooling: boil for 90 minutes 
Yeast Information: White Labs WLP 800 Pilsener Lager
Make a starter 
Fermentation Details: This is important
Ferment at 10 - 12 C for 18 days
Rest at 20C for 5 Days
Rack to secondary fermenter and lager for 4 - 5 weeks
Bottle keg as normal

Other Brewing Information: The hops are the secret to this beer and I love tettnanger 
Competition Results: 1st Australian Nationl Competition 2004


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## Tony (22/6/07)

randyrob said:


> What about something like this????
> 
> =======================================================
> A ProMash Recipe Report
> ...




Ahhh the clasic american pils.

A bit different ot a german or behemien

Ilove the corn sweetness of the CAP. It ballances the bitterness

I have made a few bohemien pils and they all sucked. I could never get it right. A lot of people said how hard a good one was to make and they were right.

A german pils is great. lots of pils malt, some carapils and german hops. Ray hit it on the head, no need to repest him.

The CAP is a great but neglected style in the pilsner family. Not enough people make it.

I have a 2,5kg bag of flaked maize waiting for about oktober to brew one for summer. I love to use pils malt, 5% carapils and 20 to 25% maize.

also need cluster hops for bitterness for an authenitc beer.
WLP833 german bock yeast is awsome. its dry but malty enough to lift the corn thinning effect.

balances well.

I have officialy given up on bohemien pils. I will concentrate on the german and CAP. I like the more too 

cheers


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## Malnourished (23/6/07)

Zwickel said:


> I wont say that a 52 rest will be indispensable, or will be urgently necessary, *no*, thats just a courtesy for my yeast.


I think you are mistaken. It's your beer, but I don't think what you're doing is best practice. 

Al Korzonas says(my emphasis and celcius conversions):



> So, *if you rest at 122F (50C) or 125F (52C) or 127F (53C), you will be producing more
> amino acids (which there are more than enough of in an all-malt
> mash and excesses can result in other problems like higher alcohols)
> and getting thinner beer*. If you rest at 135F (57C) or 137F (58C) or 140F (60C), you
> ...


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## randyrob (23/6/07)

Ray_Mills said:


> Wort Preparation: Single infusion mash at 67 c for 90 minutes
> Flood sparge of 45 minutes at 77 C



What temps are other single infusioners mashing at??

Cheers Rob.


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## randyrob (23/6/07)

Tony said:


> also need cluster hops for bitterness for an authenitc beer.



I'd love to give that a go Tony, but i'm always too scared it will come out like XXXX  

Rob.


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## Zwickel (24/6/07)

Hello mates,



> if you rest at 122F (50C) or 125F (52C) or 127F (53C), you will be producing more
> amino acids (which there are more than enough of in an all-malt
> mash and excesses can result in other problems like higher alcohols)
> and getting thinner beer.


hmmm...thats quite interesting, I wont insist on the 52C rest, but does he make any difference in top or bottom fermenting yeasts? higher alcohols are only a matter of top fermenting yeasts (ales for example), not so with bottom fermenting yeasts at very low temps.
Id like to accentuate, Im doing the proteine rest only with Pilsener beers.
I think, there is a big difference if you do an Ale or a Pilsener.
In some countries beer means automatically is an Ale, in other countries not.
Anyway, Im not an expert in that, its just my hobby and Im willing to take advice if someone has better arguments. 
At this point Id like to mention, this is a great forum with a very high level of knowledge and I enjoy very much such kind of diskussions.

Cheers mates :beer:


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## matti (24/6/07)

> hmmm...thats quite interesting, I wont insist on the 52C rest, but does he make any difference in top or bottom fermenting yeasts? higher alcohols are only a matter of top fermenting yeasts (ales for example), not so with bottom fermenting yeasts at very low temps.
> Id like to accentuate, Im doing the proteine rest only with Pilsener beers.
> I think, there is a big difference if you do an Ale or a Pilsener.
> In some countries beer means automatically is an Ale, in other countries not.
> ...



I am curious too.
I wouldn't think you bother with ales using fully modified malts




> Resting at temps around 125-140F (51-60C) will develop medium weight
> >proteins by degrading large molecular weight proteins. Again, the
> >medium weight proteins are the ones you really want for your beer, the
> >largest proteins are otherwise a wasted protein source since they'll
> ...



Once again it's about style of beer. 
But which one?
matti


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## Malnourished (24/6/07)

Zwickel said:


> hmmm...thats quite interesting, I wont insist on the 52C rest, but does he make any difference in top or bottom fermenting yeasts? higher alcohols are only a matter of top fermenting yeasts (ales for example), not so with bottom fermenting yeasts at very low temps.


I'm not sure that you can categorically say that higher alcohols aren't a concern with bottom-fermenting yeasts. I'd love to see some research on the matter (to prove me wrong no doubt) but on a logical level it makes sense to me that bottom-fermenting yeast in a homebrew setup could be under a great deal of stress due to underpitching/oxygenation and the cold temperatures even without an excess of amino acids to deal with. To add to the confusion, Noonan mentions that fusel alcohols are a concern in _New Brewing Lager Beer_, but Dave Miller specifically says they aren't a concern in _Pilsener_. If anyone has information on this I would love to hear it.



Zwickel said:


> Id like to accentuate, Im doing the proteine rest only with Pilsener beers.
> I think, there is a big difference if you do an Ale or a Pilsener.
> In some countries beer means automatically is an Ale, in other countries not.


Why do you say there's a difference between pilsener and ale? Are you talking purely from a fermentation perspective or do you mean there's something about the differing flavour profiles that require different treatment (e.g. you think pilseners are better with less body)?

Anyway I think it's interesting that you make the differentiation between ale and lager yeast and say that what's true for one may not apply to the other. My understanding is that the vast majority of research on beer fermentation related to lager fermentation because that's where all the research funding is. I think _Brew Like a Monk_ says something along these lines. So, if anything, I usually assume that what is known about beer fermentation can be applied to lager fermentation moreso than ale fermentation.


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## Zwickel (24/6/07)

Malnourished said:


> I'm not sure that you can categorically say that higher alcohols aren't a concern with bottom-fermenting yeasts.


the reason why bottom fermenting yeasts get forced to do theire work at very low temps is just to avoid getting ester and higher alcohols like fusels into the beer.
That yeast would like to work at higher temp as well as the top fermenting yeasts do.
In case that your starter has been produced at high temp and/or youve pitched the yeast at too high temp, you may get some unwanted esters and/or fusels into the beer.
So far its a concern of bottom fermenting yeasts too.
Almost all yeast strains, doesnt matter top or bottom fermenting, are growing best at around 32C, but at this temp too many unwanted stuff will be produced.
To force the pilsener yeasts to work at its lowest possible temp, you need very healthy yeast and a very nutrient medium.
Thats what I want to show up.



> ....Noonan mentions that fusel alcohols are a concern in _New Brewing Lager Beer_,



nowadays the beer making industries are searching for solutions to shorten the time between producing and selling it.
That for the fermentation gets forced by higher temps and/or yeast strains are used they do theire work faster, even dry yeast is used at around 18 in some breweries to produce Pilsener beer.



> Why do you say there's a difference between pilsener and ale? Are you talking purely from a fermentation perspective or do you mean there's something about the differing flavour profiles that require different treatment (e.g. you think pilseners are better with less body)?


the biggest difference in top to bottom fermenting yeast is the fact, that they have a complete different metabolism.
There are sugars, only the tf yeasts can metabolize, the bf yeasts not.
That produces a completely different fermenting profile, resulting in a completely different flavour as well.

Apologies if I wont go deeper into this matter, my english is not good enough for that.

Cheers :beer:


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