# Starting from scratch - What equipment do I need?



## Ciderman (14/6/14)

I've been an occasional brewer over the last 10 years and looking to get back into it. Most of my experience has been in winemaking, cider and beer extract brews. I was never really a fan of the extract beers when I did them so I'm interested in getting set up to make an all grain beer and would like any advice from those around here. 

I'd be particularly interested in the best place to buy grain and supplies in Brisbane. 

I have some basic equipment like a hydrometer, 30L fermenter and bottle capper.

Any general advice would be appreciated.


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## DU99 (14/6/14)

Craftbrewer one of the sponsors above.*[SIZE=medium]Unit 2, 4 Christine Place, Capalaba[/SIZE]*


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## Bribie G (14/6/14)

Check this thread: everything you need is at Craftbrewer.

For starters you can get your grains pre-milled so you won't need a mill. For wort production I'd recommend Brew in a Bag but there are other popular systems. You'll be familiar with sanitation and fermentation: good fermenter is just a 30L Bunnings water drum with tap.


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## MastersBrewery (14/6/14)

Asking for a list of NEEDED equipment on this site is like opening an enormous can of worms. Now just to convince SWMBO I NEED that 6 tap kegerator


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## Hippy (14/6/14)

Get yourself a comfortable stool for the shed if that's where you'll be brewing you'll be spending a lot of time in there


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## menoetes (14/6/14)

Craftbrewer is a valued site sponsor and probably has the best stock and equipment in Brisbane. However if Capalaba seems too far away or inconvenient Brewers Choice has shops scattered all over Brissy. Though their range of equipment and ingredients isn't as good, they have more than enough gear to you back into the game.

I'm not trying to be disparaging towards BC, I shop there occasionally myself. But while Craftbrewer seems to have _everything_, Brewers choice just has most stuff. Both stores have very helpful staff too, tell them what you are aiming to make and they can help you pick out the gear/ingredients you need...


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## Spiesy (14/6/14)

I'm also an advocate of BIAB (Brew In A Bag), particularly if you're looking at getting into all-grain brewing (which is a great move).

Perhaps chat with Ross @ Craft Brewer (a great shop, which others have recommended). He has everything you need to get up and running in no time.


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## Spiesy (14/6/14)

The only other thing that I'd recommend, is looking at a controlled fermentation chamber. A spare or second hand fridge is a great option. Grab a temp controller from Craft Brewer, and an infrared ceramic heat lamp (eBay) - and you're set for controlled fermentation of lagers or ales, year round.


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## Ciderman (14/6/14)

Thanks for the feedback, the website for that shop looks very comprehensive. I'll certainly pop in and get set up. 

On the idea of pre milled grain, what the quality difference? I was looking to mill the grain myself but hadn't given it a lot of thought. 

I've got a curing chamber that I built out of an old fridge with adjustable humidity and temperature so I was counting on that being multipurpose. 

Any ideas for a first brew? Would you consider anything particularly more difficult than others.


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## boybrewer (14/6/14)

Ciderman said:


> Thanks for the feedback, the website for that shop looks very comprehensive. I'll certainly pop in and get set up.
> 
> On the idea of pre milled grain, what the quality difference? I was looking to mill the grain myself but hadn't given it a lot of thought.
> 
> ...


For your first brew which is pretty straight forward, look at brewing Dr Smurtos ale its a great drop .


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## Spiesy (14/6/14)

Ciderman said:


> Thanks for the feedback, the website for that shop looks very comprehensive. I'll certainly pop in and get set up.
> 
> On the idea of pre milled grain, what the quality difference? I was looking to mill the grain myself but hadn't given it a lot of thought.
> 
> ...


Yep, Dr. Smurto's Golden Ale is an awesome beer - but I guess it all depends on what you like.
What are you favourite commercial beers right now? What styles are you digging? What do you want to make?
Are you an American Pale Ale fan, a Stout fan, a Saison fan (aka 'flavour of the month'…_ I jest_), etc...

Re: milling.
Three awesome benefits of milling your own:

You can save around 50% of the grain value
You can brew whatever you like, whenever you like (as long as you have those grains on hand)
You know the size of the crush and you know for sure what it is your brew (for the paranoid crew).

The _not so good_ points:

It can be hard to keep a decent range on hand, particularly specialty malts (you can always buy specialties separately)
It does cost a bit to set up and you need room and decent containers for grain storage
You can't blame your LHBS for a stuck sparge or poor extraction efficiency 
Having said all that… I recommend getting in with your own mill and grain, at least with some basic grain varieties. The freedom to just wake up and brew is pretty awesome. But, you might want to look at this a little further down the track.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (14/6/14)

2 x 19L pots from Big W, a house stove and 2 food grade buckets and a tap.



Works for me.


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## verysupple (14/6/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> 2 x 19L pots from Big W, a house stove and 2 food grade buckets and a tap.
> 
> 
> 
> Works for me.


Same here except for the 2 buckets. I have a "fancy" 30 L fermentor instead and don't do the 'bucket-in-bucket' lauter.

As far as I'm concerned, the most important piece of equipment I have is a ~$2 spray bottle for sanitising things (filling it with sanitiser helps ).


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## Ciderman (14/6/14)

Spiesy said:


> Yep, Dr. Smurto's Golden Ale is an awesome beer - but I guess it all depends on what you like.
> What are you favourite commercial beers right now? What styles are you digging? What do you want to make?
> Are you an American Pale Ale fan, a Stout fan, a Saison fan (aka 'flavour of the month'…_ I jest_), etc...
> 
> ...


Good points on the milling. Thanks. I quite like Beechworth Pale ale by bridge road brewers. Has the fruitiness of a pale ale which I don't usually like, but has a nice amount of hoppy bitterness to balance. Murray's Dark Knight is my favourite dark beer.


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## ralphstralph (14/6/14)

my favorite tool the thermometer!!!  ( you probably already have one )


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## Spiesy (14/6/14)

Ciderman said:


> Good points on the milling. Thanks. I quite like Beechworth Pale ale by bridge road brewers. Has the fruitiness of a pale ale which I don't usually like, but has a nice amount of hoppy bitterness to balance. Murray's Dark Knight is my favourite dark beer.


Bridge Rd are great brewers. My favourite style is APA, and last year this APA was my favourite of all - awesome beer! 
Murray's Dark Knight is a completely different beast altogether, but if you've lead with an APA (despite saying you usually don't dig fruit) - give the aforementioned Dr. Smurto's Golden Ale recipe a go… hard to go wrong there.


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## Spiesy (14/6/14)

ralphstralph said:


> my favorite tool the thermometer!!!  ( you probably already have one )


Yep. It's pretty insane.


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## lswhi3 (15/6/14)

During my exam procrastination today, I stumbled over these crazy deals!

First one ships from America, but looks really great and seems like a pretty good deal from what I can suss. 

Second like is from NSW but they express post Australia wide, and their prices are pretty cheap compared to everywhere else I've looked around that is Melbourne based. 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TEN-GALLON-COOLER-MASH-TUN-SPARGE-THERMOMETER-AND-VALVE-HOMEBREWING-/111310752934?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19eaa34ca6

http://www.thebrewshop.com.au/beer-making/brewing-equipment/mashing-equipment.html

I'd love to get my hands on the mashtun, but I am a poor uni student!


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## lswhi3 (15/6/14)

Anyone else know some sites with some crazy deals?


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## Midnight Brew (15/6/14)

Milk crate: An invaluable item in any home brewery. Seat, stand, drying rack, bottle crate, ect.
Bucket: even two or three. So many uses from cracking grain to topping up kettle to cleaning ect.
Spray bottle: for sanitsier as mentioned above.
Grain mill: as mentioned above.
Fermentation fridge: as mentioned above.
Pulley and rope: if you BIAB very helpful and does most of the work for you when draining the bag.
Jars and vials: for yeast rinsing and storage if you further extend your hobby into the yeast world.


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## storeboughtcheeseburgers (15/6/14)

Convert your esky to Mash & Lauter Tun with a PVC tank fitting, 2 toilet cisterns, a T Joiner and a ball valve tap.

30Litre + eskies work best


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## Ciderman (15/6/14)

Great, thanks for all the help. Can someone answer some basic questions or link me to some information?

I can't seem to find any information on how much water is added both, strike water and sparge water. Also I understand what efficiency is, but how do you know you have the correct percentage? 

Any help or links would be greatly appreciated.


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## Yob (15/6/14)

What do you NEED? 

An understanding missus


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## lswhi3 (15/6/14)

Get beersmith man, it's the best way to work out how to do all your calculations, it tells you mash volume, sparge volume, efficiency, etc etc. You can run all your recipes through it and it'll give you a lot of information. 

Approx 2.5L per kilo of grain. 5kg I'd use 12L, 17kg = 30L. Depends on the size of your mashtun. This really effects efficiency depending on your ability to control water temps. 

Efficiency: 100% efficiency = maximum fermentibles from grain = 1.050 pre-boil gravity. 50% from same grain would be 1.025. All depends on your mash/sparge technique. Most people aim for 70-85% efficiency. 

Linkys:

http://www.donosborn.com/homebrew/all_grain_how_to.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbdRDm2VsCc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftY_HZAFJFc

http://www.donosborn.com/homebrew/mashtun.htm

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/6351/doubleIPA.pdf


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## DU99 (15/6/14)

Brewmate is another good piece of Free brewing software.Also checkout this topic from LRG


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## lswhi3 (15/6/14)

DU99 said:


> Brewmate is another good piece of Free brewing software.Also checkout this topic from LRG


Beersmith is more geared towards big batches from what I have been told. What do you think of beermate's compatibility re. AG homebrewing?


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## lswhi3 (15/6/14)

ahh brewmate doesnt work on mac :'(


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## lswhi3 (15/6/14)

anyone have experience with brewtarget?


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## luggy (15/6/14)

you can scale recipes in beersmith, you can make any size batch you want


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## lswhi3 (15/6/14)

I know, but _apparently_ the accuracy isnt spot on for small batches


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## Adr_0 (15/6/14)

Just a note on cleaning:

PBW is a great product for removing gunk but can be pricey. Use about a tablespoon per litre with warm water. It's not appropriate for 'pickling' though.

Unflavoured (unscented) NapiSan or a homebrand equivelant is apparently good to 'bomb' your gear if you get an infection or don't really trust your gear (sodium percarbonate) and is probably suitable for pickling but I've never used it. Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is NOT a good product for 'bombing' your gear as it will form chlorophenols with your yeast resulting in a bad tasting beer (contact adhesive taste/smell).

StarSan is awesome and IMO unbeatable as a santitiser. Sanitise your stuff once you have cleaned it, and preferably just before putting stuff in it. Use it in the dosage required, and maybe use a dropper for getting hte equivelant in a spray bottle. Awesome stuff.

Potassium/sodium metabisulphite is good for 'bombing' as well and has the added advantage of reacting (in our favour) with chloramines in any water you use. It is extremely harsh (really bad irritant) if you inhale it, so be very careful with this. Potassium metabisulphite (from homebrew wine places) is also good as a water treatment for a few brews down the track, to remove chloramines (then boil to remove the subsequent chlorine). You need normally <1g for a batch though.

On weights, generally a digital 2kg scale will be good for measuring grains and also dextrose for when you carbonate your beer after fermenting it. However for smaller weights (e.g. hops, minerals or chemicals for water treatment) really need 0.1g resolution. Have a bit of a dig here:
http://www.scaleshop.com.au/ohaus-cl-digital-scales/
The OHAUS CL-201 has been great for me, $75. I'm sure there are some similar ones out there.


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## Spiesy (15/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> ahh brewmate doesnt work on mac :'(


BeerAlchemy for Mac.


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## Maheel (15/6/14)

kegs, gas bottle and taps is what you "need" 

then buy the stuff to fill em up !!


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## Adr_0 (15/6/14)

A couple more things, on equipment/sizing and a recipe/style to brew.

My 2c on recipes: I was originally advised 8-9 years ago that an English bitter with a bit of crystal and RB and a good yeast is a perfect first beer to make, and have given a few people similar advice. The main reasons for this is that they are super-tasty and have a fair bit of latitude with water chemistry, hopping and yeast volume. I do still think a great APA is a good start but maybe assume 55-60% efficiency in your brew software, and have a 90min mash.

With a 30L fermenter it's a great size for 20-23L brews. Some wheat yeasts will add 5-10L of volume on your wort in krausen, whereas lager yeasts or US-05 will hardly change from the wort level. So I would guess 20-23L is a good batch size.

For this 20-23L you will need something to bottle with: either another fermenter (expensive) or a 20L plastic pail from Bunnings for $15 or whatever it is. I have 2-3 of these: a black one for cracking grain into (contrasts with the white flour), and a couple of white ones for handling water (to see any impurities).

I was going to give some pointers on sizing equipment but if you take the BIAB road I'm probably out of my depth.  Lots of great advice on this forum for BIAB though.


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## Adr_0 (15/6/14)

Ciderman said:


> Great, thanks for all the help. Can someone answer some basic questions or link me to some information?
> 
> I can't seem to find any information on how much water is added both, strike water and sparge water. Also I understand what efficiency is, but how do you know you have the correct percentage?
> 
> Any help or links would be greatly appreciated.


Have you thought about which system config you will use, eg BIAB or 2/3V, how to provide heat and handle/move everything?


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## Ciderman (15/6/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Have you thought about which system config you will use, eg BIAB or 2/3V, how to provide heat and handle/move everything?


I always had the 3V system in my head so the BIAB is somewhat of a new concept to me. I'll do my research but I'd certainly be leaning towards 3V at this stage. Your thoughts?


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## Yob (15/6/14)

HERMS...


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## Ciderman (15/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> Get beersmith man, it's the best way to work out how to do all your calculations, it tells you mash volume, sparge volume, efficiency, etc etc. You can run all your recipes through it and it'll give you a lot of information.
> 
> Approx 2.5L per kilo of grain. 5kg I'd use 12L, 17kg = 30L. Depends on the size of your mashtun. This really effects efficiency depending on your ability to control water temps.
> 
> ...



Thanks heaps!


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## Adr_0 (16/6/14)

Ciderman said:


> I always had the 3V system in my head so the BIAB is somewhat of a new concept to me. I'll do my research but I'd certainly be leaning towards 3V at this stage. Your thoughts?


A few things generally:
- You won't get the best efficiency to start with and will have some frustrations. This will happen regardless of the system and high efficiency is not the be-all and end-all - consistent efficiency is though
- You will find that you want things to go smoother on each subsequent brewday. Some of this relates to timing and decisions; some relates to equipment you have on hand
- You have to think about budget and SWMBO approval. Lord Raja Goomba's 2-pot stovetop method is awesome, but has a low SWMBO approval rating
- Generally when your wort is boiling you need to cool it to fermentation temps (15-20°C). Some people like to use lots of water or spend money on equipment while some are a bit more pragmatic and let their wort cool overnight. Each has their pluses and minuses.
- You will make improvements. Generally these will be around manual handling, time reduction, volume/energy efficiency, or lauter efficiency. Or sometimes just for the hell of it.

A few things on 3V:
- Can get great efficiency if you're into that sort of thing (most people float in the 70-75% range quite happily)
- You should decide if you want to fly sparge (continuous flow of sparge water in parallel with draining) or batch (add sparge water, mix, recirc, then drain). Fly sparging can actually make things simple and you get higher efficiency, but has some things to consider (pH/tannins, flow through the bed, pump balancing or gravity system)
- Generally your mashes are in the 2.5-4L water per kg of malt range
- There is really no limit on the type of beers you can make, except if you have a volume limitation. Can be difficult to make extract beers.
- Expensive, but if you can get converted kegs that should be cheaper.
- It will need to be either gravity-fed (tiered from hot water -> mash tun -> boiler and enough room to go into fermenter) or have a pump somewhere if not
- On the above, you will need a brew structure. Shelf systems from Bunnings can be great for this.
- Need to figure out if you want to go gas (I like fire) or electric (more economical, can have some teething issues though)
- Lots to clean, lots to haul around, lots to store

A few things on 2V:
- Compared to 3V, you will cop some efficiency because theoretically you are not sparging at all. That's what everyone says, anyway... nothing stopping you using a bucket of hot water and getting you back into the 70's. 
- You will NEED a pump - no way to do it without
- Similar to 3V but cheaper (less pots), less to clean
- You may need a slightly larger mash tun than a similar 3V if you read the old literature, up to 5-5.5L/kg (which makes for a big mash tun) however a 20L bucket on the side keeps things more reasonable
- Gas/electric heating arrangements are more simple (heating one pot rather than two)

BIAB:
- Keeps everything contained to one pot
- Good variety of beers you can make however some people have said there are limitations with control of hte body of the beer
- Risk of scorching or burning your bag
- Cheapest of the lot by far, particularly when combined with no chill
- Lots of resources to help plan this
- Quite bad with manual handling (lifting a big bag of wet grain out)

A long way from comprehensive but a few basic points there. 3V is great and you may move to a HERMS or RIMS past this - or a 2V AdRIMS - but BIAB or 2 pot stovetop have a lot of loyal followers for a very good reason.

Enjoy...


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## Ciderman (17/6/14)

Adr_0 said:


> A few things generally:
> - You won't get the best efficiency to start with and will have some frustrations. This will happen regardless of the system and high efficiency is not the be-all and end-all - consistent efficiency is though
> - You will find that you want things to go smoother on each subsequent brewday. Some of this relates to timing and decisions; some relates to equipment you have on hand
> - You have to think about budget and SWMBO approval. Lord Raja Goomba's 2-pot stovetop method is awesome, but has a low SWMBO approval rating
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to go through all that. I like the idea of the 3V system and have a mate willing to weld me up a structure for free. Might be a silly question but can you use a modified esky as a mash tun for 3V? All the pictures I have seen have a steel pot on the second level. I gather that's so you can maintain the temperature better with the gas burner? 

My initial thoughts were to try to incorporate some of the materials I already have. I have a 20L pot which could be used as a hot liquor tank, would that be big enough? I also have a brand new (freebie) 40L esky which could be easily modified into a mash tun. If that was workable all I would need is a large 50L boil kettle for the basic set up.

Also, do you know how the cooling system works when the boil is done, do you need a pump for that?

I have a dedicated shed for my projects so SWMBO is happy with that. Out of interest what do you use?


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## Not For Horses (17/6/14)

Luke1992 said:


> anyone have experience with brewtarget?


I've been using this for a while now. Does pretty much everything you need except for estimating FG based on mash temp.


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## Adr_0 (17/6/14)

Ciderman said:


> Thanks for taking the time to go through all that. I like the idea of the 3V system and have a mate willing to weld me up a structure for free. Might be a silly question but can you use a modified esky as a mash tun for 3V? All the pictures I have seen have a steel pot on the second level. I gather that's so you can maintain the temperature better with the gas burner?
> 
> My initial thoughts were to try to incorporate some of the materials I already have. I have a 20L pot which could be used as a hot liquor tank, would that be big enough? I also have a brand new (freebie) 40L esky which could be easily modified into a mash tun. If that was workable all I would need is a large 50L boil kettle for the basic set up.
> 
> ...


My main 50L setup in Brisbane is a large conical mash tun (~75L) with a 70L HLT/boiler and a 20L bucket. I use a 'little brown pump' to move the water/wort around and a fairly hefty (but low pressure) gas burner. I cool with a plate chiller and a fish tank pump in a bucket of ice water. Good performing system but could use slightly better ramp rates for heating water and wort.

The setup I'm putting together here will be the same chiller and pump, with a 36L HLT/boiler and a 20-22L cylindrical mash tun, and the 20L bucket on the side again. I want to focus on ease of handling, conserving energy and calm, consistent brewing.

On your setup, a 40L esky will be great as long as it seals well. This is generally big enough for a double batch just quietly. You will need a false bottom and/or a grain bag that will fit, e.g. if it is a square esky:
http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=2943

For your kettle:
23L batch size
15% boiloff = 3.5L
1.5L unrecoverable volume in your boiler
___Kettle must be at least 28L, recommend 36L or 40L.... or 70L if you wish.

I would use the 20L pot as a HLT (stainless or aluminium?) for your hot water, but you will need to fill it twice to cover mash water and sparge water - I'm basing this on:
6kg of grain will absorb 6L water
2L dead space (unrecoverable volume in your mash tun)
28L pre-boil volume (what ends up in the kettle)
____36L of water required
-> You generally try to have first runnings volume and sparge volume roughly equal, but don't stress about it
-> You might end up a bit short for your mash water initially, i.e. you will likely need every litre of that 20L by the time you rest and mash out... but you can always top it up after your initial mash in. You will probably need 15L or so for sparging and fly sparging would probably work well.

Cooling... why don't you try no chill? Save a bit of money and time (on brewday) and see if it works for you.

Heating... depending on your sculpture and budget you could get two burners, or move one around. Running costs of gas are more than an electric element, but it is a bit more reliable (until gas runs out) and you can move the burner from your HLT to your kettle. Up to you really...


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## Ciderman (18/6/14)

Thanks for all your help. The pot that I have for the hot liquor is aluminium. Does that matter? I should be ready to brew in a few weeks I reckon.


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## Adr_0 (19/6/14)

It doesn't matter, but be aware that you will get a black stain on your pot from the chlorine in your water oxidising. It shouldn't be scrubbed off as it is a great protective layer but it doesn't look too flash and will ruin any graduations you put on the inside of the pot. 

I have often wondered if something can be put in the pot as a light oxidation before boiling chlorine/chloramine-laced water, but have never had the chance to see as I have since gone to stainless. I also only started removing chlorine after 9-10 batches in it. 

You will be fine, but be aware that it will happen and maybe do some research on chlorine treatment or pre-oxidisingyour pot.


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## Ciderman (17/7/14)

Adr_0 said:


> It doesn't matter, but be aware that you will get a black stain on your pot from the chlorine in your water oxidising. It shouldn't be scrubbed off as it is a great protective layer but it doesn't look too flash and will ruin any graduations you put on the inside of the pot.
> I have often wondered if something can be put in the pot as a light oxidation before boiling chlorine/chloramine-laced water, but have never had the chance to see as I have since gone to stainless. I also only started removing chlorine after 9-10 batches in it.
> You will be fine, but be aware that it will happen and maybe do some research on chlorine treatment or pre-oxidisingyour pot.


Ok, so I'm all set up equipment wise. 20L Liquor pot - electric, 60L esky, 70L boiler. Going to try the Dr Smurto Golden Ale as my first brew. Have downloaded beersmith. I have the grain, hops, yeast etc. 

I still don't quite understand the amount of water to add, both for the strike and sparge. Based on a 23L batch beersmith says 37.85L volume. What exactly does that mean? Any help would be appreciated, I'm brewing Sunday.


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## Adr_0 (18/7/14)

With Beersmith, a few things to help you:
-On your main Design page, click Select Fields. I find "Total Grains", "Total Water Needed", "Total Mash Water", "Estimated Pre-Boil Gravity", "Measured OG" (going into fermenter), "Measured Batch Size" (fermenter) and "Measured Efficiency" are good starting points.
-On your main Design page, click the 'tick' next to Equipment. Here, set "Loss to Trub and Chiller" to zero litres. You may have some left over in your kettle that doesn't make it to the fermenter. You can account for this in your "Measured Batch Size/OG" and hence brewhouse efficiency.
-Don't forget to tick "Adjust Temp for Equipment" and set up your mash tun parameters: heat capacity; weight; and Tun Deadspace (on the Mash page), ticking "Adjust Mash Vol for Deadspace". Without this, your mash strike water volume and pre-boil volume will be wrong - so measure this accurately.

I would probably set your efficiency to 60% to start with as well.

As for how much water you need:
Desired Batch size x 1.2 (assume 10-15% boiloff, 90min boil) x 1.04 (shrinkage from 100°C to 20°C) should equal Pre-boil volume. This is what you get out of the first runnings (first drain after mash) and any sparge water.
Pre-boil volume + grain absorption + tun deadspace = total water required
Grain absorption is normally about 1:1, or maybe 1:1.1 i.e. about 1-1.1L per kg grain.

If you go on a batch size of 23L and 5kg grain you should have:
29L pre-boil volume (28.7L)
5L grain absorption
1L mash tun dead space?
= 35L

This increases with more grain, more boiloff and more deadspace in your mash tun. Your 37.85L is probably your "Total Water Needed". This is basically mash/strike water, and sparge water. This is fine with 20L and I'd probably make your mash strike volume as close to 20L as possible so what when you account for grain absorption and dead space your 17L of sparge water isn't too far off your first runnings volume.

Hope that helps...

EDIT: If you're not sure about the total water and mash/sparge split:
1. Add "Total Mash Water"
2. Look at "Sparge Vol" under the Mash tab

Your "Total Mash Water" includes parts for the grain absorption and mash tun deadspace, but your Sparge Vol does not (and does not need to).


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## Ciderman (19/7/14)

Adr_0 said:


> With Beersmith, a few things to help you:
> -On your main Design page, click Select Fields. I find "Total Grains", "Total Water Needed", "Total Mash Water", "Estimated Pre-Boil Gravity", "Measured OG" (going into fermenter), "Measured Batch Size" (fermenter) and "Measured Efficiency" are good starting points.
> -On your main Design page, click the 'tick' next to Equipment. Here, set "Loss to Trub and Chiller" to zero litres. You may have some left over in your kettle that doesn't make it to the fermenter. You can account for this in your "Measured Batch Size/OG" and hence brewhouse efficiency.
> -Don't forget to tick "Adjust Temp for Equipment" and set up your mash tun parameters: heat capacity; weight; and Tun Deadspace (on the Mash page), ticking "Adjust Mash Vol for Deadspace". Without this, your mash strike water volume and pre-boil volume will be wrong - so measure this accurately.
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I'm kinda getting my head around things but I suspect it's something you just learn from experience. My only hesitation is beersmith says I need 46.22 litres of water for the brew. Seems like a lot.


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## Ciderman (19/7/14)

Here is the beersmith file


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## Adr_0 (19/7/14)

I would change a couple of things:
1) Set your "Loss to trub and chiller" under "Fermenter/Bottling Volumes" to 0L, and increase your batch size to 25.84L if you have worked out you have 2.84L of deadspace in your kettle. The only reason for this is to help make your starting gravity (after your boil) a little more accurate.
2) It looks like you have a lot of boiloff, 38%. Even over a 2hr boil that's a touch high. About 10-12% per hour is generally a good guide, which should save you 3-5L of water. You change all this on the Equipment page: boil time (set this); boil off (e.g 2-5L); and you can tick "use this figure as an hourly rate" to figure our your boiloff.
You should measure your change in water level every 30min or so to figure out your exact boiloff. It's impossible to know until you do your first brew and your boiloff rate will change with batch size and summer/winter.
3) Your grain absorption looks to be about 6.12L for 5.05kg grain. You could probably knock this back a bit under your Tools-->Options-->Advanced tab but it's not a bad idea to have a bit up your sleeve, as long as you have the capacity. 1.05 for this number is probably pretty close but you will need to measure this too.

Any way you can reduce your mash tun dead space? Is there a way you could gently get this into your kettle? That way you would save another 3L. Have a kettle standing by too.


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## Ducatiboy stu (19/7/14)

Luke1992 said:


> anyone have experience with brewtarget?


Just installed it. Had a quick play and it seems pretty good. Looking for the Aust grain specs to add to its inventory

I previously used Promash, and just found it on an old HDD and fired it up in wine so now I have all my old recipes from when Noah was a boy.

Ironically, Noah is my youngest son


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## Adr_0 (20/7/14)

If you still can't get the predicted numbers below 40L, you can do a couple of things:

Is there any way you could put your strike water in your kettle, and maybe just pour this in? This would be for the mash so you'd still have 90min to rearrange things, empty out leftover water etc.

Have a pot on the stove with a few litres boiling for your mash out (this is probably where you need the most extra water).

Thirdly (and probably least desirable) is you have a more dilute mash. You have to watch your pH (astringency) if you go into the 5-6L/kg range so I probably wouldn't recommend it. You could do this by having a fair chunk of water in your original strike, then top up your HLT and have another heap to hit mash out temp. Your sparge water would then be reduced (relatively). But I'm not sure this is the best way to do it.


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## Ciderman (20/7/14)

I think (for now) beersmith is just causing more confusion. I understand how much water I need so I think it's just playing with my head. I'm always the type of person who likes the trial and error system so here we go!


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## Adr_0 (20/7/14)

That's the way, enjoy! Let us know how you go. 

Cheers, 
Adrian


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## Ciderman (20/7/14)

Absolute disaster so far! Just by following instructions I had my strike temp just short of 70 Celsius, anticipating a 3-4 degree loss and it dropped to 60! Tried adding a bit more hot water and it's dipped even further!


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## Ducatiboy stu (20/7/14)

Make your strike water about 8*c above your desired mash temp.

Ie 65*c mash, 73*c strike water


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## S.E (20/7/14)

Ciderman said:


> Absolute disaster so far! Just by following instructions I had my strike temp just short of 70 Celsius, anticipating a 3-4 degree loss and it dropped to 60! Tried adding a bit more hot water and it's dipped even further!


That’s a big drop in temp. Was it 70c in the hlt before transferring to the mash tun, or did you preheat the mash tun and it was 70c for a few minutes before adding the grain?


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## spog (20/7/14)

Sounds like you have cold pockets of water in the pot,did you stir the water to ensure even heat distribution ?.
As you said when you added some more hot water to try to adjust the temp the temp dipped,this must have mixed into a cold pocket.
This has happened to me before,it had me scratching my head wondering what the hell was going on until I was told the likely problem and stirring or recirculating fixed the problem.


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## Ciderman (20/7/14)

Yeah I thought I had stirred it well but there could have been cold pockets. My first thought was I didn't make any adjustments for a cold day. I added a couple of litres of boiling water and that took it up to about 62. It then went backwards, I assume because I had the lid open. I've left it pretty well untouched and it's maintained 60 degrees throughout the process. I'm 5 minutes away from sparging and it's still at 60 degrees. 

It's all learning for me so I'm pretty happy to learn from my mistakes


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## S.E (20/7/14)

If you are using the 60L esky mentioned in your post no.45 it will absorb a lot of heat before it preheats and the temp stabilises.

I use a 55L esky and usually add between 25L-30L at around 73c-75c then let it sit for about 5 minutes with the lid on to stabilise. I adjust with a little hot or cold liquor if necessary before mash in. Usually a bit if a stir before mash in gets it to the desired temp though and hot/cold liquor adjustment is rarely needed.


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## Ciderman (20/7/14)

S.E said:


> If you are using the 60L esky mentioned in your post no.45 it will absorb a lot of heat before it preheats and the temp stabilises.
> 
> I use a 55L esky and usually add between 25L-30L at around 73c-75c then let it sit for about 5 minutes with the lid on to stabilise. I adjust with a little hot or cold liquor if necessary before mash in. Usually a bit if a stir before mash in gets it to the desired temp though and hot/cold liquor adjustment is rarely needed.


Makes sense. I added the water to the grain, so next time I should get my temperature correct in the mash tun, then add the grain.


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## S.E (20/7/14)

Ciderman said:


> Makes sense. I added the water to the grain, so next time I should get my temperature correct in the mash tun, then add the grain.


Yes I would add the grain to the water as it easier to let the water preheat the esky first. At least till you get the hang of your system.

Also I don’t know if it’s been mentioned here but a 60L esky is a bit big for 25L batches so you will have a large headspace above the mash. It would be better if you could cut some insulation and fit it above the mash. Even a sheet of tin foil above the mash will help.


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## Ciderman (20/7/14)

Quick question for anyone? I've completed the brew and just bringing it down to temperature. I've come up a few litres short, sitting around 19-20. OG is 1044. Should I add water to bring back to the suggest OG reading of 1040?


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## Adr_0 (20/7/14)

Did you have the weight of the mash tun in Beersmith? And the "Adjust Temp for Equipment" box ticked?

Anyway, Congrats so far. I guess there's a lot to remember the first time but making these things right next time is satisfying. For next time it looks like you have a Temperature Mash set up in Beersmith. If you have the ability to heat the mash that's great, but suspect you should pick one of the infusion mash profiles. 

Should have picked up the temp and made sure you added the grains to the water. Sorry about that. 

Good luck for the rest of the day!


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## Adr_0 (20/7/14)

Ciderman said:


> Quick question for anyone? I've completed the brew and just bringing it down to temperature. I've come up a few litres short, sitting around 19-20. OG is 1044. Should I add water to bring back to the suggest OG reading of 1040?


Yeah that's fine. Just make sure it's all well mixed when you take your hydrometer reading.


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## Ciderman (20/7/14)

S.E said:


> Yes I would add the grain to the water as it easier to let the water preheat the esky first. At least till you get the hang of your system.
> 
> Also I don’t know if it’s been mentioned here but a 60L esky is a bit big for 25L batches so you will have a large headspace above the mash. It would be better if you could cut some insulation and fit it above the mash. Even a sheet of tin foil above the mash will help.


Yeah I figured that but despite the fact that it went to 60 degree, it's actually stayed there for 90mins. I would have bought one smaller but it was a freebie. It's a fiberglass one so maybe that's why it held so well.


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## Ciderman (20/7/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Did you have the weight of the mash tun in Beersmith? And the "Adjust Temp for Equipment" box ticked?
> Anyway, Congrats so far. I guess there's a lot to remember the first time but making these things right next time is satisfying. For next time it looks like you have a Temperature Mash set up in Beersmith. If you have the ability to heat the mash that's great, but suspect you should pick one of the infusion mash profiles.
> Should have picked up the temp and made sure you added the grains to the water. Sorry about that.
> Good luck for the rest of the day!


I ended up just working out the water manually. I'll work on beersmith so we're in sync for the next brew. In the end the boil off was probably greater than I expected. 

At the end of the day I added 3 litres of water which brought the gravity reading to what beersmith suggested so I think I'm in a good position so far. 

At least it smells good!


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## Adr_0 (20/7/14)

Mate, sounds like you smashed it. Good job.  

Now to plan the next one....


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## zeddy1234 (20/7/14)

Sounds exactly like my day today, first ag brew aswell.
Did you have the wort squirt all over the kitchen floor aswell? 
How good did it smell?!?


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## Ciderman (20/7/14)

Brissie Brewer said:


> Sounds exactly like my day today, first ag brew aswell.
> Did you have the wort squirt all over the kitchen floor aswell?
> How good did it smell?!?


Did mine in the shed... Haha. Yeah that's the first thing I noticed, particularly after the first addition of hops. What recipe did you make?

Btw thanks to everyone that contributed in this thread, it was very helpful.


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## Ciderman (20/7/14)

Here's a few pics from the day.


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## Adr_0 (20/7/14)

Mate that looks unreal. How did your volumes and boil off end up? Will the 20L work for you?


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## zeddy1234 (20/7/14)

Ciderman said:


> Did mine in the shed... Haha. Yeah that's the first thing I noticed, particularly after the first addition of hops. What recipe did you make?
> 
> Btw thanks to everyone that contributed in this thread, it was very helpful.


 Mine was a Fat Cat Yak

3kg Light Munich Grain
1kg Wheat grain
250g CaraMunich Grain

15g Nelson @ 60
15g Galaxy and Nelson @ 2min
10g Galaxy and Nelson dryhop

Came up a bit short on OG, unsure why but looks good!


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## Ciderman (21/7/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Mate that looks unreal. How did your volumes and boil off end up? Will the 20L work for you?


I got it down to 18 degrees and pitched the yeast late yesterday. A few bubbles this morning so it's kicked off. At this stage it smells better than any extract beer I have done so I'm hopeful that I have a drinkable beer. Basically I threw away beersmith except for the timer so I have much to learn and understand before the next brew. I'll go through some of the tutorials and aim to brew again in a few weeks. 

I'll have some time to ponder over what recipe to try next...


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## Ciderman (23/7/14)

I didn't see any point starting another thread for just one question, so...

After pitching the yeast on Sunday night it is rapidly fermenting far to quickly for my liking. Started at about 1040 and I'm down to 1020 already. 

The original plan was to keep in the fridge at 18 degrees but my thermostat isn't being compliant so I ditched that idea. It's winter after all so I wasn't worried about high temperatures. It's presently sitting at around 15 degrees now and I'm not getting much variation in temperature. 

Based on previous extract brews I have done, they have taken a lot long this time of year. Should I be worried or is this just the beneficiary of a good quality yeast?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

What yeast? If it's Notto or you rehydrated, it might all be normal.


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## Ciderman (23/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> What yeast? If it's Notto or you rehydrated, it might all be normal.


It was that us 05 American ale yeast.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (23/7/14)

Rehydrated?

Ferment temp?

US05 on a rehydrate at 20 degrees I've had done in a week, easy. So I don't think that will be an issue.

The only issue is that sometimes it does get to 1.020, 1.018 - that sort of level and just conk out, or at least slow down.

Rouse the yeast, and a raise in temp will usually knock off those last 10 points.


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## Adr_0 (23/7/14)

All grain brews generally have a lot more nutrients (generally zinc I believe) than extract. This could be a reason and I definitely noticed faster ferments when I changed to all grain. Welcome to the all grain world. 

As long as it doesn't stall, but sure it won't. 18 degrees should be ok for most yeasts and particularly US-05.

EDIT: In a nutshell, you will be fine. Probably lift to 20 degrees if you can.


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## Ciderman (30/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Rehydrated?
> 
> Ferment temp?
> 
> ...


So it got down to 1.014 pretty quickly and stopped. I gave it a mix up, threw the heat belt on and brought it up to 20 degrees. There's a bit of activity so I'm hoping the gravity drops a little more. It does smell good so I think it's a pretty good job for my first AG beer.

I have to say though, I'm totally addicted. I need to get another fermenter so I can brew two at a time! I'd like to make a Porter next I think...


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (30/7/14)

At least 3 fermenters. You need at least one for racking if you go down that line. I like to have it so I can bottle the leftover yeast for re-use.

Preferably 4.


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## slcmorro (30/7/14)

Adr_0 said:


> A few things generally:
> 
> BIAB:
> - Risk of scorching or burning your bag
> - Quite bad with manual handling (lifting a big bag of wet grain out)


Agree with you 100%. These are some of the things I have done/would do, to mitigate the above cons:

- Risk of scorching or burning your bag
Simply put, avoid lighting the burner while the bag is in the keggle/pot. Adjust temp with hot/cold water, or use an upside-down colander (metal) or hoist the bag slightly off the bottom if you must light the burner.

- Quite bad with manual handling (lifting a big bag of wet grain out)
I have a very simple 1-1 pulley system, whereas I thread a small nylon rope over the rafter in the shed above the brewstand, and tie it off to the workbench at the appropriate height and squeeze. I dunk sparge, so it's simple and easy to untie the rope with 1 hand and hold the bag with the other. The bag then goes into my sparge bucket, the rope re-thread over a different rafter further along, and then dunked and prodded, rehoisted and tied off for more squeezing. You're only really holding max say 12-15kgs with one hand for 10 seconds each time while you untie. Lifting a full fermenter or grain bags weighs more.


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## Adr_0 (30/7/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> At least 3 fermenters. You need at least one for racking if you go down that line. I like to have it so I can bottle the leftover yeast for re-use.
> 
> Preferably 4.


Pfft, you're not a real brewer unless you have at least 17 fermenters...


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (30/7/14)

Adr_0 said:


> Pfft, you're not a real brewer unless you have at least 17 fermenters...


I had to get so new stuff, so I've started with 3. Annoys the life outta me.


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## mje1980 (30/7/14)

slcmorro said:


> Agree with you 100%. These are some of the things I have done/would do, to mitigate the above cons:- Risk of scorching or burning your bag
> Simply put, avoid lighting the burner while the bag is in the keggle/pot. Adjust temp with hot/cold water, or use an upside-down colander (metal) or hoist the bag slightly off the bottom if you must light the burner.
> 
> - Quite bad with manual handling (lifting a big bag of wet grain out)
> I have a very simple 1-1 pulley system, whereas I thread a small nylon rope over the rafter in the shed above the brewstand, and tie it off to the workbench at the appropriate height and squeeze. I dunk sparge, so it's simple and easy to untie the rope with 1 hand and hold the bag with the other. The bag then goes into my sparge bucket, the rope re-thread over a different rafter further along, and then dunked and prodded, rehoisted and tied off for more squeezing. You're only really holding max say 12-15kgs with one hand for 10 seconds each time while you untie. Lifting a full fermenter or grain bags weighs more.


I recently ditched my 3v for BIAB after 10 years. At 5'9 and 78kg of pure, hardcore, rippling, panty dropping muscle, lifting the bag by hand while I fire up the gas burner to step up to the next temp is quite doable. I do have a pulley, which makes it easy, but when stepping up temps I hold with one hand, and stir with the other. If I wasn't so lazy I'd come up with a way to do it that didn't involve me holding it, but it's so easy that's how I do it.

As for scorching the bag, see above, holding it up off the bottom will stop that. I have been meaning to get around to getting a cake rack, but did I mention I'm very very lazy.


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## Ciderman (30/7/14)

I've very quickly learnt that my amature setup in quite inferior to those of my fellow brewers!


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## mje1980 (30/7/14)

Inferior?, what do you think of my complete setup then? Sub par


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## Adr_0 (30/7/14)

Man, that is an epic setup! 

I have never done BIAB so anything I say is just guesswork. 

I definitely agree with 3V being a lot of work with moving/cleaning/packing. The main objective of my 2V system is to simplify the layout (nice and neat) but make it as easy to use and clean as possible, while still keeping in the high 70's for efficiency. I think when you chuck a recirc pump and a 20L bucket (for sparge) onto a 2V it changes the game a bit and it's suddenly a lot more appealing.


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## Ciderman (30/7/14)

mje1980 said:


> Inferior?, what do you think of my complete setup then? Sub par


All you need is a bit of sticky tape to complete the look!


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## mje1980 (30/7/14)

I was going to get some SSRs from work and jam them in the foam to make it more "techno" acceptable.


I loved my 3v but at a brew club event, I saw BIAB in the flesh. It took up so little space. Next time I brewed I looked at my esky tun, HLT and kettle, complete with buckets spread all over my garage and just though hmmmmm. I got a bag, and did a trial just using my existing gas fired keggle. That was it, I was sold on it. 

If I had the coin I'd happily get a BM but it's a spendy bit of gear at the moment. I also work in maintenance, and I know the more you techno bits you retro fit to existing equipment the more potential for things to go wrong. I don't mind trouble shooting when I'm being paid, but at home I like KISS. The main thing is I can still step mash ( I think it's actually easier, just fire the gas, lift the bag and stir ).

Mind you if I had a big **** off shed, I'd probably build a dedicated brew stand and setup a 3V again. Just depends on your situation.


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