# Kegs, New vs second hand.



## Hoploader (24/5/15)

I've had a fair old search and can't come up with much on what is best way to go.
I'm looking at getting probably 4 kegs at this stage. New presumably Chinese made for $125 each or second hand from craftbrewer @ $80 each. I'm guessing the second hand ones might be a bit hit and miss, but also assuming they would be made to last far more than the Chinese new ones. I found one thread on Italian ones that would be hard to sterilize, due to an unwelded seam, though not sure what they are.
Think I'll go the corny's rather than pins mainly just as fridge will fit them better, and easier on parts.
Any suggestions welcome. Or even a pointer to a thread I've missed.

Cheers


----------



## Yob (24/5/15)

If second hand and they're holding gas. Got a pull ring prv. 

Win 

Don't get the ones with the solid in built prv.. Well.. If they're under fiddy, sure, replacing the whole lid will work out


----------



## Bribie G (24/5/15)

I inspected a couple of the Chinese ones at my LHBS the other day. I don't need kegs but had a good look. They appear to be identical to Cornies, and are a thing of beauty.

Craftbrewer also sell a similar product for $140. There have been posts about the Italian ones, wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.


----------



## Cervantes (24/5/15)

Mine are mostly second hand and I just replaced all of the O rings with silicone O rings. They work well.

I prefer the second hand cornelius kegs as they have the rubber bottom and handles and are easier to move around when full than the ones with the metal handles.


----------



## Hoploader (24/5/15)

I "think" the cornys all have pull reliefs while the pins have the solid over pressure relief, and yeah you could replace the lid. Will probably go the used ones, but yeah the new ones look nice


----------



## takai (25/5/15)

Depends on which new ones. I have new ones that look identical to my 2nd hand ones, but without the damage of several years of abuse.


----------



## MastersBrewery (25/5/15)

If I had my time again and a little money for new kegs I'd go that way, with one difference I'd get the 1/6 BBL yankee kegs with D couple and build a keg washer. Cost of purchase would be similar to new cornies, but maintenance way simpler, cleaning D couple kegs with out a keg washer would be a pain.


----------



## mckenry (25/5/15)

Bribie G said:


> I inspected a couple of the Chinese ones at my LHBS the other day. I don't need kegs but had a good look. They appear to be identical to Cornies, and are a thing of beauty.
> 
> Craftbrewer also sell a similar product for $140. There have been posts about the Italian ones, wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.


Are the Italian ones AEB? I have 10 AEB 9.5L kegs and they're perfect still, after god knows how many years. Probably 8 years I've had them.
I like to buy new and look after stuff, so that would be my recommendation.


----------



## Bribie G (25/5/15)

I haven't personally seen the Italian ones but the new ones at the LHBS are identical to the second hand Cornelius brand. 
Rubber top and bottom and flawless machining. I wonder if they bought the rights from the Corny mob as they are not made any more.


----------



## pcmfisher (25/5/15)

These days I would want to see any second hand kegs before I purchased them, ie do not buy online. There is not much good stuff around and lots of shit. 
I am not saying you will get rubbish , but you should see them first.

Keg King's latest offering with the rubber on the top and bottom seem to be pretty good.


----------



## Hoploader (25/5/15)

Yeah would be great to be able to check out used ones, but nowhere in Sydney to buy. Wouldn't take too many replacement parts to add up to a new one after $88 for keg+seals, but certainly a saving if that's it.


----------



## komodo (25/5/15)

Bribie G said:


> There have been posts about the Italian ones, wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.


Ummm you sure you've got that right?

I've got 4 x 19L + 2 x 9.5L AEB (italian) kegs.
I've also got 4 x 9.5 "corny" kegs second hand a few years back from germany.

For my money the AEB units are the best. If you can afford to splurge on brand new units they're from memory about $180ea (9.5 and 19's were the same price)
There is nothing wrong with the 2nd hand units but I've got a bit of a thing for wanting new shit all the time so I spent the coin.
If I was a bit more flush with cast I'd sell my 4 2nd hand kegs and upgrade to a few more of the italian made AEB units.


----------



## Grott (2/6/15)

mckenry said:


> I have 10 AEB 9.5L kegs and they're perfect still, after god knows how many years.[/quote
> 
> With the extra kegs do you store/age brews in them and if so do you, chill and carbonate and then store or do you fill/purge the 02 out and say leave pressurised at 20 psi?
> With the latter would 4 weeks be ok before chilling and then carbonating?
> ...


----------



## mckenry (3/6/15)

grott said:


> With the extra kegs do you store/age brews in them and if so do you, chill and carbonate and then store or do you fill/purge the 02 out and say leave pressurised at 20 psi?
> With the latter would 4 weeks be ok before chilling and then carbonating?
> 
> Ps I've got the kegging bug, 560 bottles to 4 x 9.5 litre plus 2 x 12 litre - can I stop???
> ...


Hey grott,
I do all the above, depending on fridge space. So, I have 9 taps and 3 kegerators. 
2 kegerators join together with a 6 tap font. I have a small gas bottle inside one kegerator. So in the 6 tap configuration I have 3*19L kegs in one and 2*19L and 1*9.5L in the other, along with the gas bottle and reg. The other takes 3*19L kegs.
So, that leaves me with 9*9.5L kegs right?
As I brew 50L batches I keg 2*19L and 1*9.5L everytime. Depending on tap space and another fridge I have for lagering depends which keg goes on tap where.
If I have finally exhausted all fridge space, what I normally do is pull out one of the kegs in the fridge (non serving) and leave it in the coolest place available while I carbonate / lager a new one. The one sitting at ambient will usually be the next to go on tap. I usually have 6 or 7 of the 9.5L kegs ready to go in the one spot that can take a little one.
Hope this makes sense.


----------



## Grott (3/6/15)

Yes it does make sense and thanks for the information, appreciated.

Ps. If I'm every in Bowral, with that set up, don't let me in, how could one leave.

Cheers


----------



## Spiesy (3/6/15)

Last few second hand kegs I bought, sight unseen, were horrible. Really bad condition.

The new Chinese ones you mention, could refer to lots of different kegs. But if its the variety that most HB shops are selling, not only are they a good build - but they come with a 5-year warranty to back it up.

A few months back I lost 2/3 of a keg of (very nice) beer due to a pin-prick hole in the bottom of a second hand keg that developed over time.


----------



## Grott (3/6/15)

I bought 2 new 12l ball lock kegs from Brewmart in WA. Neil was excellent, guaranteed no bulge issues or problems with the kegs. I ordered last Thursday, he pressurised them over night and ship them out Friday. Received them Mon morning! & Aust post! They were still highly pressurised and the welds look terrific. 
Cheers

Ps postage to the door (SA) was only $16.90 for both kegs


----------



## Grott (11/7/15)

grott said:


> Ps I've got the kegging bug, 560 bottles to 4 x 9.5 litre plus 2 x 12 litre - can I stop???
> 
> Cheers


Just purchased 2 x 12litre slightly used Italian kegs - Help.....................!


----------



## Phoney (11/7/15)

MastersBrewery said:


> If I had my time again and a little money for new kegs I'd go that way


This.
The biggest mistake in all of my brewing career was buying "reconditioned" kegs. Sorry Ross. I just bought somebody else's problem.

Yes, you can buy replacement parts that fit *most of the time* but the last thing you want to be doing is swapping around leaking lids, PRV's or liquid out posts when you've got a full keg of beer. I bought 1 brand new keg 4 years ago and it's still tight as a nuns nasty.


----------



## TheBigD (11/7/15)

I've got six 2nd hand cornies and never had a leak, never replaced any of seals up until today, I just replaced one lid seal that was beginning to crack. Some have pull ring release valve some don't and never had a problem with the ones that don't , I just push in the gas poppet to purge the air after pressurizing with CO2. I thought about replacing the lids but every time I go into the LHBS I find Id rather spend my money on hops, yeast and malt.


----------



## Danielscott26 (11/7/15)

I recently brought two secondhand kegs and one sealed perfect but one didn't. I ended up buying a new lid for it and its fine but with the new lid and seal kit that took the price up to $105 for a dinged up second hand keg. 
I brought a new keg on Thursday from Hoppy Days brewing supplies and i wish id brought them all brand new. For only a few extra dollars you have a brand new shiny keg.


----------



## Benn (11/7/15)

Why is it that nobody uses CUB kegs? are they just totally unsuited to homebrew use due to cost/availability of compatible components?


----------



## zeggie (11/7/15)

I've bought 1 good keg, and 2 that needs new posts and seals. In hindsight I should've just bought new.


----------



## MastersBrewery (11/7/15)

Phoney said:


> This.
> The biggest mistake in all of my brewing career was buying "reconditioned" kegs. Sorry Ross. I just bought somebody else's problem.
> 
> Yes, you can buy replacement parts that fit *most of the time* but the last thing you want to be doing is swapping around leaking lids, PRV's or liquid out posts when you've got a full keg of beer. I bought 1 brand new keg 4 years ago and it's still tight as a nuns nasty.


My point was I wouldn't use corny style kegs but D couples, more equipment for cleaning but way less places for leaks to occur or parts to replace there's a good reason they are the most popular commercial coupling.

MB


----------



## lael (12/7/15)

MB, is there a particular reason you would go D type couplers over A type?



MastersBrewery said:


> My point was I wouldn't use corny style kegs but D couples, more equipment for cleaning but way less places for leaks to occur or parts to replace there's a good reason they are the most popular commercial coupling.
> 
> MB


----------



## /// (12/7/15)

A type are the best option for a number of technical reasons. I have worked with a German spear supplier for a number of years, working on the approval cycle thru cub and lion Nathan successfully. 

Main reason to go d's is probably height. The kegs are 150mm lower and fit in keg fridges better.

Most prob do not go commercial kegs due to cleaning. Bit of McGuyvering can see you get there


----------



## dicko (12/7/15)

Benn said:


> Why is it that nobody uses CUB kegs? are they just totally unsuited to homebrew use due to cost/availability of compatible components?


Apart from the height and cleaning issue that has been mentioned the CUB kegs are actually owned by the brewery and to have one in your possession is illegal.


----------



## Camo6 (12/7/15)

dicko said:


> Apart from the height and cleaning issue that has been mentioned the CUB kegs are actually owned by the brewery and to have one in your possession is illegal.


Is it illegal? If you buy a keg of commercial beer don't you pay a deposit for the return of the keg? Is there a deadline to return it by? I knew a bloke who would go through about 12-15 kegs a year and would take them all back at the end of year. So, if you bought a keg of beer and didn't modify it, is there a clause in the conditions of sale preventing you from refilling it or holding on to it for a while? I'm sure there would be but it would be interesting to know.


----------



## Fylp (12/7/15)

I've 3 pin locks I converted over to ball lock. All ex coke. One is Italian, another is Spartanburg, the other is Cornelius. All from one seller on eBay, they all were said to have leaking posts and did. Each keg worked out about $35-40 (inc postage) and then $17 to convert with posts and uni poppets. The best I could find elsewhere for reco was 90 or 120 for new. There was some risk, though I'll get another of the same in a few weeks. 

As for fixed prv, I just push in the poppet. 

Phil


----------



## Grott (12/7/15)

Dan26 said:


> For only a few extra dollars you have a brand new shiny keg.


Even new, 12 litre kegs are hard to come by. The slightly used Italian kegs recently purchased were $85 each cheaper for the same new ones here in Australia. (The exchange rate and postage make them uneconomical to purchase overseas particularly from America). I will agree that generally more common 19 litre kegs are better off new unless at real bargain prices.
Cheers


----------



## dicko (12/7/15)

Camo6 said:


> Is it illegal? If you buy a keg of commercial beer don't you pay a deposit for the return of the keg? Is there a deadline to return it by? I knew a bloke who would go through about 12-15 kegs a year and would take them all back at the end of year. So, if you bought a keg of beer and didn't modify it, is there a clause in the conditions of sale preventing you from refilling it or holding on to it for a while? I'm sure there would be but it would be interesting to know.


Actually a good point Camo.
I would imagine that while the keg had brewery beer in it then it may be OK to hold it for an extended period of time.
Isn't it a fact that when a person hires a keg for home serving they are really only hiring it from a pub and not the actual brewery.

It would be a lot cheaper to buy the appropriate keg than to use a brewery owned keg and then have to hire a solicitor to defend you should the brewery actually wanted to take you to court. :lol: h34r:


----------



## /// (12/7/15)

dicko said:


> Actually a good point Camo.
> I would imagine that while the keg had brewery beer in it then it may be OK to hold it for an extended period of time.
> Isn't it a fact that when a person hires a keg for home serving they are really only hiring it from a pub and not the actual brewery.
> 
> It would be a lot cheaper to buy the appropriate keg than to use a brewery owned keg and then have to hire a solicitor to defend you should the brewery actually wanted to take you to court. :lol: h34r:


Covered to death here, it's illegal. If you rent a car and do not take it back, is it yours? Buying 50l is much easier, KK AND Bintani can help.

My Ops manager made a statement against a fella that had his house raided and they found our kegs. More charges laid for the fella


----------



## Camo6 (12/7/15)

/// said:


> Covered to death here, it's illegal. If you rent a car and do not take it back, is it yours? Buying 50l is much easier, KK AND Bintani can help.
> 
> My Ops manager made a statement against a fella that had his house raided and they found our kegs. More charges laid for the fella


But you rent a car on a time based arrangement. Is there a specific time limit specified when you buy 50l of kegged beer as to when that keg must be returned? While pubs would turn over kegs very quickly, Joe Blow might take months to finish his keg of Geelong Bitter. Can he be charged for being a slow drinker?

FWIW, I'm certainly not advocating stealing kegs for personal use as I realise they're a costly item for the brewer, but curious as to the terms of the purchase/rental agreement as I've never bought/hired one myself.


----------



## Grott (12/7/15)

and I could name some commercial beers that would take you years to drink!


----------



## Kev R (12/7/15)

I have a new and a 2nd hand balllock. The new one has lap joints welded that leave a unwelded joint inside. I'm carefull to not leave it empty or open if it got infected beer it would be difficult to sanitatise crap traped under the lapjoint.
The second hand Pepsi has proper full penetration but welds.


----------



## MastersBrewery (12/7/15)

lael said:


> MB, is there a particular reason you would go D type couplers over A type?


They're available in1/6 bbl and circlip D type can be pulled down without specialist tools and are as easy to re assemble, prices from stout tanks are US$284 for 4 of them leaving a good bit of room for freight. A bulk buy would probably get them cheaper but import duties and GST would then apply.



/// said:


> A type are the best option for a number of technical reasons. I have worked with a German spear supplier for a number of years, working on the approval cycle thru cub and lion Nathan successfully.
> 
> Main reason to go d's is probably height. The kegs are 150mm lower and fit in keg fridges better.
> 
> Most prob do not go commercial kegs due to cleaning. Bit of McGuyvering can see you get there


No way I could lift a full 50L keg these days 
Not doubting anything you've said, I have worked with both in commercial bars. A keg washer would be a must and pulling 1 in 5 spears to inspect. I haven't had to pull down and rebuild an A type but either way both these type couplers are in wide use within the commercial industry, taps and parts are and will be available for decades to come, the same can't be said for cornie type kegs.


----------



## dicko (12/7/15)

/// said:


> Covered to death here, it's illegal. If you rent a car and do not take it back, is it yours? Buying 50l is much easier, KK AND Bintani can help.
> 
> My Ops manager made a statement against a fella that had his house raided and they found our kegs. More charges laid for the fella





Camo6 said:


> But you rent a car on a time based arrangement. Is there a specific time limit specified when you buy 50l of kegged beer as to when that keg must be returned? While pubs would turn over kegs very quickly, Joe Blow might take months to finish his keg of Geelong Bitter. Can he be charged for being a slow drinker?
> 
> FWIW, I'm certainly not advocating stealing kegs for personal use as I realise they're a costly item for the brewer, but curious as to the terms of the purchase/rental agreement as I've never bought/hired one myself.


Yep... rent it from a pub...legally it is not the pubs equipment to rent...
Rent it from a micro...then it is more than likely a legal agreement with the micro and the consumer, in which case the rental details including the extent of hire as in time need to be clearly stated.

The OP is probably never going to use a keg from a brewery or a micro, so from my point of view, from the condition of some of the second hand kegs that I have seen become available of late, I would probably buy new ones


----------



## /// (12/7/15)

Camo6 said:


> But you rent a car on a time based arrangement. Is there a specific time limit specified when you buy 50l of kegged beer as to when that keg must be returned? While pubs would turn over kegs very quickly, Joe Blow might take months to finish his keg of Geelong Bitter. Can he be charged for being a slow drinker?
> 
> FWIW, I'm certainly not advocating stealing kegs for personal use as I realise they're a costly item for the brewer, but curious as to the terms of the purchase/rental agreement as I've never bought/hired one myself.


Been covered to Death Part II. You buy the beer in the keg. Add on a Euro 85 per keg purchase. If you were the Coogee Bay Hotel which does 500 kegs a week in peak, what would you do with all those kegs? Ahhh ... ummm ...

There is no purchase/rental agreement, drink the beer, send back the keg. Been covered to death Part III ...


----------



## Camo6 (12/7/15)

/// said:


> Been covered to Death Part II. You buy the beer in the keg. Add on a Euro 85 per keg purchase. If you were the Coogee Bay Hotel which does 500 kegs a week in peak, what would you do with all those kegs? Ahhh ... ummm ...
> 
> There is no purchase/rental agreement, drink the beer, send back the keg. Been covered to death Part III ...


Not really sure I understood your response. Why would a high turnover pub want to retain empty kegs?

So, in regards to my question, if you buy 50l of beer (that comes in a keg) and retain a receipt, there's no legal agreement that states how quickly it must be consumed and returned? Cool. Curiosity sated. No need to look up this trilogy you mention.


----------



## Tahoose (12/7/15)

Getting back to the original topic.

First keg I bought was second hand, seal kit was free so I chucked on that, soon enough I realised that the lid was stuffed so I bought a new lid. Now around the $100 mark. 

Then came in the vic keg bulk but (godsend). So I got 3 x 19's and 3 x 9's. As was said earlier, these kegs come with a 5yr warranty. If you look after them they should last for at least a couple of decades, not one problem here. 

I also have bought an A type keg and a couple of D's (scrap yard). And lobbed onto a couple of bargains for couplers. These couplers have threads that are suitable for a ball lock conversion, so they work in with my system. As a home brewer I find the A type kegs easier to use in a home operation. But not as practice as the cornies. 

Buy once, buy well. You won't regret it.


----------



## pist (13/7/15)

Ive recently gone through this...and my 2c is for the cost of a new keg king corny (new rubberised top and bottom ones) i wouldn't bother with second hand. Cost to buy second hand is going up and up...then you have to buy seals etc to rebuild them it all starts adding up. The new keg king ones i picked up today are just as good as genuine cornies and everything is new ready to go


----------



## Bribie G (13/7/15)

I was in my LHBS today for the first time since I'd posted on this thread so I went over the new kegs with a fine toothed comb. I honestly can't tell any difference between them and my second hand ball locks except that they are Noiiice.

If I were starting off now I'd go the new ones, let's face it for an extra thirty bucks or whatever per keg, it's a good deal.


----------



## dannymars (13/7/15)

Plus, when you get the old ones they're quite often filthy and filled with old soft-drink, sticky horrible shit that you need to completely scrub out... New ones are shiny as ****, and look awesome compared to shitty 2nd hand ones. new for me from now on...


----------



## Crusty (13/7/15)

/// said:


> Been covered to Death Part II. You buy the beer in the keg. Add on a Euro 85 per keg purchase. If you were the Coogee Bay Hotel which does 500 kegs a week in peak, what would you do with all those kegs? Ahhh ... ummm ...
> 
> There is no purchase/rental agreement, drink the beer, send back the keg. Been covered to death Part III ...


I think you might be right.
A while back, I remember that they used to have an invoiced inventory system in place & the guy that collected the kegs would fill out how many A or D type kegs were going back. Your next keg order was credited against the returned number of kegs back to the brewery. Gone are those days & the guy picking them up now just loads up whats there for the taking & I'm certain the breweries have no idea of who has what. I think any losses are absorbed by the owners & finding a particular keg against a serial number would be almost impossible. The pubs & places here have no lock up facilities for empty kegs & I'm sure if they were losing money for non returned kegs, they'd be locked away. They remain the property of the brewery but it's certainly not policed around these parts. If there was a hold fee on non returned kegs, there would be a lot less stainless bling furniture at most of our local watering holes. The darn things are everywhere & there's some good looking pub furniture made from empties at a couple of places here.
As for new or second hand, I'd be going new for sure.


----------



## MastersBrewery (13/7/15)

And if you left a case of beer on the foot path overnight and it was not there the next morning a complaint to the police would be met with laughter, go figure. I've stated before and still believe the responsibility for securing the property of the brewery lies with the pub, if said pub is not looking after that property....... I believe all due care is not being taken, and the end cost falls on the price at the tap.


----------



## Grott (13/7/15)

Just to stir up a bit, the SA famous pick axe beer bottles have embossed at the base "property of the Adelaide Bottling Co P/L". Now when that actually applied how many were used for home brew, tomatoes sauce etc?
Cheers


----------

