# Hop Astringency What Is It How To Avoid It



## Back Yard Brewer (21/4/09)

Was wondering if there is a thread on here that discuss's hop astringency. How it comes about and what flavours can it impart. Currently have an American Brown on tap, smells great but it has a bitterness that seems to hang longer than it should.


BYB


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## haysie (21/4/09)

I think you desribe it well, last`s longer, my words were> lingering rough bitterness. I dont have much experience with this taste but I reckon I have found it, brewing a best bitter recently, my notes were sparge temps way too high 82+ and yep somethings not right.


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## razz (21/4/09)

I stand to be corrected but astringency is a dry sensation in the mouth. I've had overly bitter beers myself and usually put it down to very high alpha hops to long in the boil, also a lower than expected final gravity in a highly bittered beer will emphasize hop bitterness. Even though they can taste bitter they generally aren't astringent.


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## manticle (21/4/09)

I was about to start a thread on something similar but not being an all grain brewer I'll put it in the 'common ground'.


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## Back Yard Brewer (21/4/09)

haysie said:


> I think you desribe it well, last`s longer, my words were> lingering rough bitterness. I dont have much experience with this taste but I reckon I have found it, brewing a best bitter recently, my notes were sparge temps way too high 82+ and yep somethings not right.



My sparge temp was pretty good. I also find it hard to believe that would affect the bitterness?






razz said:


> I stand to be corrected but astringency is a dry sensation in the mouth. I've had overly bitter beers myself and usually put it down to very high alpha hops to long in the boil, also a lower than expected final gravity in a highly bittered beer will emphasize hop bitterness. Even though they can taste bitter they generally aren't astringent.




Dry sensation may be a better description as well. I used Simcoe for my bittering FWH actually. I may opt out of that practice. FWH would be in the kettle for well over a hour taking into account the sparge time then bringing it up to the boil and then the boil. Thought I would give FWH ago to avoid that big rush of froth/foaming that can happen when I pitch the first addition.


BYB


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## Bribie G (21/4/09)

I recently bought Graham Wheeler's Brew your own British Real Ale and have followed his advice to do 90 minute hop additions. These have been fabulous with UK styles but I have noticed that my last two brews using USA West Coast high alpha hops such as Chinook have turned out far more bitter in a not-nice way than I planned for.

Even a Cerveza with only 20g of Chinook for 90 mins is really bitter - I was aiming for low bitterness but this brew screams "hops" even with that paltry hop addition.

Next brew I'll either cut it down to 15g or reduce the addition to 60 mins.

Wheeler points out that full isomerisation of alpha acid takes about 90 minutes and some forum members such as Thirsty Boy have argued that the extra 30 minutes should yield very little extra bitterness, but having tried it I reckon I, for one, will cut back on the addition time for really high alpha hops (have just done a 90 min superpride 15%AA so that will be the testbed, hey)


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## Back Yard Brewer (21/4/09)

BribieG said:


> Wheeler points out that full isomerisation of alpha acid takes about 90 minutes and some forum members such as Thirsty Boy have argued that the extra 30 minutes should yield very little extra bitterness, but having tried it I reckon I, for one, will cut back on the addition time for really high alpha hops (have just done a 90 min superpride 15%AA so that will be the testbed, hey)




Have even read that 45mins is enough for full extraction. I don't use high alpha hops such as Simcoe that often, no I take that back. I made an all Galaxy Ale recently it was a little more bitter than I had expected but not the same type of bitterness I am experiencing ATM


BYB


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## haysie (21/4/09)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> My sparge temp was pretty good. I also find it hard to believe that would affect the bitterness?
> 
> BYB



You may have missed my point BYB, i didnt say high sparge etc effect bitterness, it doesnt. Astringency is what i can gather a too dry(bitter) taste to be.
For mine, tannin related.
edit, personal tastes


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## Adamt (21/4/09)

Astringency can come about from many places in the brewing process, the grain (tannins), infections (acetobacter/others) and krausen scum. High/harsh bitterness, perhaps in combination with dryness can give the illusion of astringency, I think this is what people refer to as "hop astringency".


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## Screwtop (21/4/09)

BYB, maybe totally off the wall, but I had this effect using Perle hops for bittering 3 years ago. So much so that I have only used them in very small amounts and not frequently since. Not bitterness but an astringent metallic taste, the mash's at the time were definitely not oversparged or too high in PH. Since then I have experienced grain husk astringency, even had a few beers dinged last year with this fault. Very different astringency.

Screwy


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## Back Yard Brewer (21/4/09)

Screwtop said:


> BYB, maybe totally off the wall, but I had this effect using Perle hops for bittering 3 years ago. So much so that I have only used them in very small amounts and not frequently since. Not bitterness but an astringent metallic taste, the mash's at the time were definitely not oversparged or too high in PH. Since then I have experienced grain husk astringency, even had a few beers dinged last year with this fault. Very different astringency.
> 
> Screwy




Have been reading JP's How To Brew. Interestingly enough it reccomends that FWH's should be of the lower alpha range and about at about 30% initially of the total amount that will be used. The rest when the boil starts. Well thats the way I read it. In my case the Simcoe was 12.3% AA and I used the full amount, 49gms in my 84ltr boil. Will keep this in mind for next time. I don't think at this time my sparging technique was the problem.


BYB


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## Stuster (21/4/09)

What was the recipe of the beer you made, BYB? Have you made it before? How old were the hops you used? How were they stored? Is it possible that it could be due to an infection/contamination?


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## Back Yard Brewer (21/4/09)

Stuster said:


> What was the recipe of the beer you made, BYB? Have you made it before? How old were the hops you used? How were they stored? Is it possible that it could be due to an infection/contamination?




Hops were vacuum sealed and have been in my freezer for maybe 12mths. First time I have used this recipe. As for infection / contamination the finished beer smell looovely. The beer is not undrinkable, my neighbour thought it was fine. But to the partly educated brewer..................

BYB


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 65.00 L 
Boil Size: 83.19 L
Estimated OG: 1.049 SG
Estimated Color: 26.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 34.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
11.00 kg Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) Grain 80.18 % 
1.00 kg Amber Malt (Joe White) (45.3 EBC) Grain 7.29 % 
0.70 kg Carapils (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 5.10 % 
0.68 kg Caramalt (Joe White) (49.3 EBC) Grain 4.94 % 
0.34 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBC) Grain 2.49 % 
49.16 gm Simcoe (use first) [12.30 %] (60 min) Hops 23.4 IBU 
80.76 gm Cascade [6.70 %] (10 min) Hops 7.6 IBU 
66.71 gm Cascade [6.70 %] (5 min) Hops 3.4 IBU 
2.71 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
2 Pkgs American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 13.72 kg


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## dr K (21/4/09)

> QUOTE (BribieG @ Apr 21 2009, 07:54 PM) *
> Wheeler points out that full isomerisation of alpha acid takes about 90 minutes and some forum members such as Thirsty Boy have argued that the extra 30 minutes should yield very little extra bitterness, but having tried it I reckon I, for one, will cut back on the addition time for really high alpha hops (have just done a 90 min superpride 15%AA so that will be the testbed, hey) smile.gif



Well for a start you will never get "full" isomerisation of the alpha acids (30% max maybe) and isomerisation falls off rapidly (run it through beer smith or promash). There is some evidence that extended boil times might actually degrade the iso-alpha acids anyway. 60 minutes is a good rule of thumb (for all sorts of things, mashing 60, boiling 60, ideal biteering hop ultilizsation 60 and so on).
However back on topic. I am fairly certain that I have mentioned this before but hops are high in polyphenols and tannins are polyphenols (I am speaking broadly here), anectdotally high alpha hops are best boiled for shorter periods or even used purely as flavour additions.
Thus, hop astringency is possible from high alpha hops boiled for extended periods (and I guess they break the 60 minute rule as well)

K


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## katzke (22/4/09)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> Dry sensation may be a better description as well. I used Simcoe for my bittering FWH actually. I may opt out of that practice. FWH would be in the kettle for well over a hour taking into account the sparge time then bringing it up to the boil and then the boil. Thought I would give FWH ago to avoid that big rush of froth/foaming that can happen when I pitch the first addition.
> 
> BYB



We something I have heard, and it was suggested by a beer judge at our competition, is to wait till after the hot break before adding the hops. The theory is the coagulated proteins bind up some of the hope oils and goodness we are looking for. This may help with your foaming issue.

I will try it but not likely my taste buds will detect any difference.


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## KHB (22/4/09)

I drank this beer the other night and it did have an astringent taste to it, maybe even a little metallic as Screwtop described. Very nice beer otherwise, it just has a bitterness which lingers for ages with that slight metallic note.

Cheers

Scotsman


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## jbirbeck (22/4/09)

I've always found a lot of cascade gives that lingering harsh bitterness...part of the reason I don't like it much B) looking at the recipe I'd blame the cascade


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## kevin_smevin (22/4/09)

Another indicator of hops that will give a harsh bitterness is the cohumulone content. A low cohumulone will apparently give a smoother bitterness. For low levels, your looking at 20% or less, around about. That said, Simcoe has 15-20% cohumulone. Its still a high alpha hop and you should try and avoid long boils with high alpha hops. Definitely no first wort hopping with high alpha hops, stick to noble hops or similar for FWH. Craftbrewer has all the specs for their hops if your interested.


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## jbirbeck (22/4/09)

yum yum yum said:


> Another indicator of hops that will give a harsh bitterness is the cohumulone content. A low cohumulone will apparently give a smoother bitterness. For low levels, your looking at 20% or less, around about. That said, Simcoe has 15-20% cohumulone. Its still a high alpha hop and you should try and avoid long boils with high alpha hops. Definitely no first wort hopping with high alpha hops, stick to noble hops or similar for FWH. Craftbrewer has all the specs for their hops if your interested.



I like Simcoe FWH...nice and smooth. I've always found FWH gives a smoother bitterness as well. Thats ebign said for the higher cohumulone varieties adding them from 30 mins rather than 60 mins or FWH works better. Cascade has high Cohumlone...  Perle is reasonably high so too much and it would have been a bit harsh, and chinook is the same in that mid-high range that can be harsh.

I did a crazy Dunkel with Cascade and NS. I went reasonably light on the FWH of NS then went bigger with NS and Cascade at 20 and then 5...very harsh. I would have said the 20 min addition is what caused it...the addition of the cascade, had previous used the same hopping schedule in a lager for the NS and it was smooth and tasty, the dunkel I just added extra cascade at 20 and 5 and bitter as and harsh to boot. 12 months on its still harsh but much more drinkable.


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## Punkal (22/4/09)

katzke said:


> We something I have heard, and it was suggested by a beer judge at our competition, is to wait till after the hot break before adding the hops. The theory is the coagulated proteins bind up some of the hope oils and goodness we are looking for. This may help with your foaming issue.
> 
> I will try it but not likely my taste buds will detect any difference.



I heard the same thing and its is the only way i have done AG brews so i cant offer a comparison between the 2 methods but when i did my first AG i did think to myself 'why is everyone warning my about a boil over, that was not bad at all' so it probably will help with your foaming issue.


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## Fourstar (22/4/09)

Back Yard Brewer said:


> Currently have an American Brown on tap, smells great but it has a bitterness that seems to hang longer than it should.



Hey BYB,

I'm suprised no one has pointed this out yet. What is your water like? Lets get back to the foundations people! Since doing water modifications, more importantly sulfate additions, my hop profile has changed incredibly.

prior to water adjustments, any highly hopped (40IBU+) would have an awesome aroma but the bitterness was usually astringent or 'harsh' depending on the hops. I also used to add a touch of salt for malt roundness too (just out of habit). I'd usually opt for low cohumlone <35% for bittering additions and anything else as an addition at 20min > flame-out. Usually an astringent bitterness would usually be the end product. yet still drinkable, just not sessionable.

Just before getting into water modification, i no longer added table salt for highly hopped beers and harshness of hops was reduced. I think one of the issues may have been the very low sulfate <5 ppm and higher sodium content causing a harsh bitterness with highly hopped beers.


Since getting into water adjustment, things have changed. For e.g. An awesome beer with water modifications is an IPA i have on tap atm. see spec below:
Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.0 %
Bitterness: 66.3
Est Color: 6.8 SRM

30.00 gm Simcoe [13.00%] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 44.5 IBU 
20.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (15 min) Hops 13.4 IBU 
20.00 gm Amarillo [8.20%] (15 min) Hops 8.4 IBU 
10.00 gm Amarillo [8.20%] (0 min) Hops - 
10.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (0 min) Hops - 
10.00 gm Simcoe [13.00%] (0 min) Hops - 
20.00 gm Simcoe [13.00%] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops - 
5.00 gm Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
5.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 

You will note i have used notoriously 'harsh' (for some) hops such as chinook here too.

These salt additions got my Sulfate up to 150ppm, Magnesium 20ppm and calcium to 70ppm. The resulting beer has an awesome hop profile and is a well rounded 66 odd IBU beer (on paper). Comparing this to a 'no salts' beer i have such as my current Red Rocket clone @ 68 IBU, its overly harsh on the hop profile. Before anyone asks, my water is comparable to pilsen having very low permanent hardness <7ppm for calcium and alkalinity is 13ppm (from memory). Everything else is <5ppm so there is nothing there to make hops harsh with the base water.

Personally, I think a good whack of sulfate helps to round out the hops and aids it to finish dryer. With a high sulfate content, the hop profile is accentuated over the malt and hop flavours are more pronounced. Maybe this is the catch, some may say its a placebo. All i know is my beers are better since adjusting my water. Predominantly i make it harder for most beers and ramping up the sulfate content (my ESB currently has 250ppm sulfate and tasting great in the fermenter) for highly hopped beers is always my priority. all of my beers from now on having <30IBU will get atleast 50ppm of sulphate, with the exception of some beers such as a bohemian pils which calls for soft water

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


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## Jazman (22/4/09)

the casacde amounts seam fine but i have tasted and judged a lot apa that were too harsh and astringent and also had a reseiny hop taste to it maybe thats from the late additions of cascade but going by your recipe it should not be that bad


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