# What are the main factors that deter people from AG brewing ?



## Roosterboy (6/6/15)

I would like to survey (non scientifically) all the kit /extract / fresh wort kit home brewers, what are the top 3 reasons that have deterred you from trying AG brewing ?


----------



## wereprawn (6/6/15)

Time, room and extra gear required.

Edit- there are ways to minimise all within reason.


----------



## Rocker1986 (6/6/15)

I'd imagine time would be a big factor. I do AG now, but before I made the switch, my main issue was money to afford the equipment. I wanted to go to AG months before I did so the money issue wasn't a deterrent as such, just a product of my situation at the time. Doing BIAB in an urn hasn't really taken up much more space compared to what I was using when brewing with kits/extracts.


----------



## killspice (6/6/15)

With a few of my mates it's the time. Their K&k in 30m vs my biab 5hrs. They can taste the difference but can't commit the time.


----------



## eMPTy (6/6/15)

Money and support from family. Live with the parents still because it is close to my university. They don't fancy the stuff I already have around the house let alone the extra equipment needed to go AG.


----------



## oglennyboy (6/6/15)

I wanted to try AG when browsing the recipes in the forums and seeing so many AG recipes with big wraps, but as a K&K dabbling in extracts the biggest impediments seemed the complexity (missed the SMASH stuff, didn't even occur to me it was a possible approach) and the huge step up in gear.
Then I came across BIAB, and because it seemed doable with not much more gear than I had, the steps to further reading & browsing topics & sub-forums I didn't ordinarily view came easier. Once the idea that AG was doable had taken hold, then the rest fell into place pretty quickly. Although that first BIAB was pretty hairy... 
Have now done 20-odd in the past year and am very glad for the progression. Still make the odd extract when I just haven't got the time for a full-on effort.
cheers!


----------



## stewy (7/6/15)

For me it was time

To get around that I just decided to do no chill which makes for a 3.5 hr brew day... Totally worth it


----------



## Goose (7/6/15)

K & K is shake and stir for half and hour versus AG 6 hours of cooking ... AG is completely impractical, not sensible nor realistic given the space, time and money involved.

I reckon you gotta be really passionate about beer to do AG. B)


----------



## dicko (7/6/15)

Goose said:


> ... AG is completely impractical, not sensible nor realistic given the space, time and money involved.
> 
> I reckon you gotta be really passionate about beer to do AG. B)


Mmmm....a bit like most other hobbies, car restoration, fishing, 4WD off road activities, golf, springs to mind. h34r:

I personally get great enjoyment out of brewing with the AG method, but I can see that time and cost would be the most relevant points in the argument against AG.


----------



## panzerd18 (7/6/15)

Cost of equipment


----------



## Adr_0 (7/6/15)

Good thread. We have to be honest, it does take time out of our days to do this and at not insignificant cost.


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (7/6/15)

There are no real reasons not to do AG.....just excuses.


----------



## nosco (7/6/15)

Time and money and maybe space. If you have the money to go and buy up on brew bling then good luck to ya. $150 for my biab kettle is a lot of money for me but I've spends a lot more than since then and the long time between upgrades makes it more rewarding. Its never ending though.


----------



## Goose (7/6/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> There are no real reasons not to do AG.....just excuses.


Well to be fair, the main reason is taste that you just can't get from a can of goop, plus the flexibility to build your own creations, whether it be in the equipment, process or the construction of your own recipes.


----------



## Adr_0 (7/6/15)

I was going to mention the many ways to incorporate grain into brewing - partial mashes, Lord Raja Goomba's stovetop method - but wanted to stay within the scope of the post,ie not talk about the many ways to skin this particular cat. 

I think a lot of people just refuse to compromise on flavour, freshness and flexibility and are lucky enough in their home life to be able to do it. Ok let's be realistic, just compromise on the rest of their life to do it...


----------



## Ducatiboy stu (7/6/15)

Goose said:


> Well to be fair, the main reason is taste that you just can't get from a can of goop, plus the flexibility to build your own creations, whether it be in the equipment, process or the construction of your own recipes.


I did say *NOT TO DO AG B)*


----------



## hwall95 (7/6/15)

Time and money were the biggest factors for me. But once you make the leap you don't have to (but you probably will) buy more equipment. Best part is there's nothing limiting your brewing so you can make whatever you like with accuracy 

Time is still a large issue but even though brewing takes 5-6 hrs you're not doing stuff most of of the time so you can go do stuff during the mash or I just do uni work while watching boil. Or you can just drink a few beers if you've got the day free. 

Personally I think the extra time is worth it based on the fact there's is nothing limiting you're beers unlike kits and extra and it's a rewarding hobby. However if you're brewing for more economic reasons then hobby then it's probably best to stay k&k because the extra time invested probably wouldn't be worth it


----------



## madpierre06 (7/6/15)

Fear. For me I have always had fear issues when undertaking stuff for the first time, usually driven by fear that I'll **** up and be laughed at. Irrational I know, but that's just how it is. Desire helps overcome it, especially having had a go at a bloke's AG beer for the first time, thast was the deal maker.

Time and effort are not an issue when you have the satisfaction of making quality beer yourself, the variety on offer, and the myriad of learning opportunities. Plus I've had better communal beers over an AG session rather than just open a tin and add some hot water to goo.


----------



## dicko (7/6/15)

HERE is a great explanation of the economics of getting into AG brewing.

My mention of this link does not mean that I am in any way affiliated with the company however, this bloke has done the sums and makes for an interesting take on the subject, particularly in reference to saving money over time.


----------



## Goose (7/6/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> I did say *NOT TO DO AG B)*


yes you did mate... new thread though


----------



## Danscraftbeer (7/6/15)

yeah I cant answer or relate to deterrent either. Time is the fun too, if your enthusiastic and can make the time.
As for economy, I've left megaswill for dead in flavor at 6 bucks a slab for ingredients + gas $10 bucks a slab at most.


----------



## chemfish (7/6/15)

Time and cost, it's a struggle to find the time to do even extract brewing (and bottling) as it is.

As for the costing that the website states they are very much marking things in their favor, the cheapest grain you can get, no spec malt, low hopping rates, brew something decent and you could easily double or triple your grain, hop and yeast bill. That said I could easily enough make something similar to Dr Smurto's golden ale in extract for around $1 a litre so don't really see the point in saving a few cents moving to AG, not till I retire at least and need something to kill the days.


----------



## Beer Ninja (7/6/15)

I have the time and the space but I can't face a six hour session and a clean up. If I ever did go AG it would be BIAB and No Chill in cubes (so yeah, I have considered AG)

I buy a variety of fresh wort kits so do get to enjoy all grain brews (albeit at a premium price)


----------



## boybrewer (7/6/15)

Well so far no one has mentioned anything about the media playing their hand in misinformation like the article in Gardening Australia recently as well as other articles written by misinformed journos' . With the wealth of misinformation why would you try to brew .


----------



## VP Brewing (7/6/15)

After my first AG it was a no-brainer. The beer didn't compare to the kits that I had been doing for years. I don't think it's difficult to put aside 5 hours every 3 or 4 weeks. I find it therapeutic to forget about everything and concentrate on the brew. My first biab setup cost sweet f-all. My second was cheap cheap too (80L pot and 4ring burner for $120 from a fellow AHBer). The way I see it every double batch I make saves roughly $100 if I was to buy similar quality beer so I don't feel the slightest bit guilty spending money on improvements. I love making beer so the cheapness of it is a bonus. I can see if people think it's a chore then it's easy to make excuses but I'm glad it's not me.


----------



## CrookedFingers (7/6/15)

I loved my extract brews, I thought they were quite drinkable.
But I personally find AG to be a lot more engaging with the ingredients, and a better quality of beer….not every time, but more often than not.

I also don't see it as losing 4-5 hours because of brewing.
I see it as gaining 4-5 hours of time to myself, doing what I enjoy…my two hobbies, brewing beer and drinking beer !
I only brew 1 or 2 brews a month, I chill and No chill, depending on fermenter space.


----------



## Roosterboy (7/6/15)

When I started this topic I thought what the reasons were for me , I guess I thought money was the main reason , but BIAB isn't that expensive
(what's expensive in dollar terms??) and time when you have a family ( is it selfish to spend 5-6 hrs brewing, probably if you have little kids but
otherwise I don't think so). Getting your head around the food chemistry involved is also a factor. 
There have been some interesting posts with personal experiences. The time goes so fast when I'm doing a brew, the clean-up is a pain , but the 
satisfaction of making a beer from scratch is worth the effort and I look at the equipment as an investment.


----------



## brad81 (7/6/15)

Time. I started out with AG before kids, now, it's either a fresh wort kit or a can, AG is a luxury.


----------



## Ciderman (7/6/15)

I think the most basic thing is different people taste different things. Unless you've got a good palate it's probably hard to see the logic in spending the extra time and money.


----------



## waggastew (7/6/15)

For me the delay was getting good results without AG. It took me about 95 batches to graduate to 'proper' full volume AG. I went from kits, to kits and bits, to partial mash, to small volume BIAB, and then went to 3v gravity AG at the end of last year. I managed to win the AIPA and get a 2nd in the Oz lager section at the Nationals using non-AG. The long progression time meant I spent time on getting other (arguably more important) stuff right like sanitation, aeration, yeast health, ferment temp etc.

Even now I have moved to AG I am kinda overwhelmed with the number of variables/things to get right. Put all those on top of the fundamentals and I may have found it all a bit much early on? Not dissing people who jump straight in but you gotta a lot going on if you do.

As mentioned above I think time/space are a major factor. My old partial mash on the stove days were definitely faster and seemed kinda simple using essentially a 20L pot and that was it. It was limiting (I am drinking my 1st sample of a 10% Barleywine that I can't even think how you would do justice with extract) but I managed to pump out some great beers.

Stew


----------



## TheWiggman (7/6/15)

I think it's interesting that OP said "I would like to survey (non scientifically) *all the kit /extract / fresh wort kit home brewers*, what are the top 3 reasons that have deterred you from trying AG brewing" and only 2 3 of whom have chimed in with their reasons.
The rest are AG brewers sticking up for AG... :blink:
Let them have their say! Kit brewers are brewers too!


----------



## Jack of all biers (7/6/15)

MMMmmhhh... To all those who state money fair enough. To all those who said time. Just ask yourself how long you are spending on the internet in forums talking about beer and how to make it. TIME that could be better spent doing AG or at least partials or Crystal steeping to add some fresh flavour to your beers. :chug:


----------



## Danscraftbeer (7/6/15)

Roosterboy said:


> When I started this topic I thought what the reasons were for me , I guess I thought money was the main reason , but BIAB isn't that expensive
> (what's expensive in dollar terms??) and time when you have a family ( is it selfish to spend 5-6 hrs brewing, probably if you have little kids but
> otherwise I don't think so). Getting your head around the food chemistry involved is also a factor.
> There have been some interesting posts with personal experiences. The time goes so fast when I'm doing a brew, the clean-up is a pain , but the
> satisfaction of making a beer from scratch is worth the effort and I look at the equipment as an investment.


Free to do whatever I want I can afford more to hobbies including drinking the brew hobbie too. That aside!
I've also replaced my food intake with more fresh organic foods by growing it myself. Picking it fresh off the garden.
Good consumption is valuable. Knowing how to feed yourself with awareness of your intake etc.
We have lost many connections to this once common knowledge of self sufficiency.


----------



## brad81 (7/6/15)

Jack of all biers said:


> MMMmmhhh... To all those who state money fair enough. To all those who said time. Just ask yourself how long you are spending on the internet in forums talking about beer and how to make it. TIME that could be better spent doing AG or at least partials or Crystal steeping to add some fresh flavour to your beers. :chug:


Fair enough, but this is just one activity that helps me stay sane. I paint and assemble models, I cook, I play with my kids, I go to lans, I bbq/drink with mates, I work, I watch all sorts of tv, I spend time with my wife, I watch movies, shit/shower/shave. Spending time on a forum is **** all really.

I do need to dedicate a significant amount of time to it to do it right.


----------



## bjbear77 (8/6/15)

Then: Fear, knowledge, equipment, experience and money. 
Now: nothing. 3v AG brewer for 2 yrs and never looked back


----------



## contrarian (8/6/15)

Before I started BIAB the biggest barrier was the overwhelming process. I just couldn't get my head around all the steps in the process. 

Watching some friends brew made me realise it was a simple and relatively forgiving process.


----------



## petesbrew (8/6/15)

I haven't done a knk in years, and don't really miss it, apart from the fact the only tools I needed for KnK were a fermenter, spoon and can opener, and I could make a beer whenever I want!. AG is a different ballgame.

The three major factors are Time, space, expense.
Sydney alone is getting pretty bloody crowded, and I can only guess that a lot of new brewers are living in units, with limited space, and neighbours who'll complain about the delicious smell of boiling wort wafting across the many balconies.

SPACE: The amount of brewing gear that's in my shed is getting a bit ridiculous. Eg, Urn, mash tun, fermenters, Then there's the grain tubs and extra storage tubs with random brewing gear, Not to mention the odd crap round the side of the house that comes out on brewdays.
And in a "WTF have I done" move, I recently purchased a grain mill off a mate, and have to make up a hopper now. argh, more gear!

TIME: A kit n kilo. an hour at the most. Done.
AG = Speaking for myself, It takes me weeks to plan a brewday. Finding a good day to brew, and planning around it, getting the recipe sorted, ingredients bought & grain milled. I actually do my boiling at night, cos I just don't feel safe with a 3 ring burner and 40L of boiling liquid with my kids around.

Expense = gear costs money, but yeah AG means I can cheaply make beers I like that would normally cost $80+ per slab. I love belgians (who doesn't!)
Like any hobby, you can tend to get a bit obsessed, acquiring gear along the way. I think I've got to a point where I'm now streamlining what I actually need.

Bit of a ramble, but I hope this helps.


----------



## Mardoo (8/6/15)

When I was contemplating the switch AG looked insanely complex, and equipment seemed too big an expense. Equipment was solved by learning about BIAB. The appearance of complexity faded after a couple BIAB brews.


----------



## Bomber Watson (9/6/15)

Stubbornness.


----------



## Tahoose (9/6/15)

Would it be fair to say for the KnK/extract brewers out there that the ideal upgrade would be off the shelf 20litre cubes of unhopped wort?

You could buy the neutral product with a 100% ale or pils grain base. Then add a spec grain or 2 and do a mini boil with your own hop additions. 

It would be pretty much the same process as extract brewing..

Thoughts??


----------



## Bomber Watson (9/6/15)

Nope, would need a bigger pot, a better burner, etc over the full extract I'm doing now. Plus I doubt there would be a flavour difference.

Personally I cant really tell a huge difference between my full extract brews and the fwks i have done. Also for most basic beer styles I cant find a huge difference between other peoples ag and my full extract brews.

Kit and kilo or even kit and extract on the other hand there is a massive difference.


----------



## Bomber Watson (9/6/15)

Personally I despise peer pressure.

It is very strong on this forum.

In my introductory thread I specifically pointed out that I'm happy doing full extract, and following that the majority of the posts were wankers posting ghetto ways to go grain and telling me how vastly superior it is.

It is better, sure, but not everyone wants it crambed down there throats from the holyer than thou all grainers who have probably never even had a properly made extract brew.

I will go ag, one day, I have most the stuff I need for a 3v, and saving some money will be the main reason for making the change, as it can be done cheaper.

First though I have a few upgrades to make to my extract brewing gear, and I need to enter a few comps to see what happens....


----------



## Benn (9/6/15)

Renting: Moving house every couple of years and not being able to build/set something really good up in my own shed is a bit of a deterrent for me, living an hour and a half away from the nearest Home Brew shop does'nt help either. As with most pursuits learning to crawl before you walk is important, I understand there is roughly three tiers to Home Brewing? 1) Dump 'n' stir (2) BIAB etc. (3) All Grain. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
I use kits and have just began experimenting with hops and different yeasts, bought an STC 1000 so proper temp controll will hopefully be achieved within the next brew or two. All grain is definately something to work towards.


----------



## Vini2ton (9/6/15)

I just couldn't imagine going back to kits and stuff after BIAB. It's all in the taste for fucks sake. We brew because we love beer and every movement towards tasty wholesome beer is an advancement of ourselves. Maybe the question is, how many of us went back to KnK after experiencing the delectable and life-enhancing properties of our well-crafted and luscious beverages. What do we want? Tasty Beer. When do we want it? NOW!


----------



## Dazzbrew (9/6/15)

Benn said:


> As with most pursuits learning to crawl before you walk is important, I understand there is roughly three tiers to Home Brewing? 1) Dump 'n' stir (2) BIAB etc. (3) All Grain. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
> .


yes im afraid you are wrong with that statement. 
BIAB is an all grain method but like every other method you can supplement with extract if you need too (mash tun too small for a 100% grain bill).

1st tier kits (pre hopped extract)
2nd tier (unhopped extract with or without steeping grains & your in charge of the hopping)
3rd tier (all grain, you're in charge of creating the fermentables and doing the hopping)


----------



## hwall95 (9/6/15)

Benn said:


> Renting: Moving house every couple of years and not being able to build/set something really good up in my own shed is a bit of a deterrent for me, living an hour and a half away from the nearest Home Brew shop does'nt help either. As with most pursuits learning to crawl before you walk is important, I understand there is roughly three tiers to Home Brewing? 1) Dump 'n' stir (2) BIAB etc. (3) All Grain. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
> I use kits and have just began experimenting with hops and different yeasts, bought an STC 1000 so proper temp controll will hopefully be achieved within the next brew or two. All grain is definately something to work towards.


Yeah walking before running is never a bad idea, I did k&k and extract brews for nearly a year before making the jump to AG at which point I was felt then ready to. And the three tiers of brewing are probably more like: 1. Kits 2. Extract/or kits with partial boils 3. All grain - BIAB is just one method of all grain brewing.

People can make shit beer using kits, extracts, or all grain, likewise people can make great beer with kits, extract or all grain. People that brew all grain prefer it for numerous reasons and likewise people that brew with kits or extracts also have their reasons. My dads been brewing for years with kits and he really enjoy his beers. He's been playing around with his kits and added stuff and thinks he might get one of those Grainfathers one day, but theres no rush. Beauty of brewing is that everyone gets to brew in you're own method. 

Edit: Dazz beat me to the tiers correction


----------



## droid (9/6/15)

I couldn't get my head around how to do AG 

...so I asked my mrs to read part of a book concerning making a mash tun and she built it for me. Yes I have no hand in this relationship.

But also what mad pierre said - the fear of not knowing or screwing up. And again that's where my mrs will chime in when we're renovating or embarking on something pretty big and she'll say just have a go, things can be fixed.

If you are like me and struggle to turn words from a book into pictures in your mind I'd suggest hanging with someone doing AG

Just my 2c


----------



## Yob (9/6/15)

..cough.. I still put in a kits and bits brew every so often.. 

Last was a heather ale for the Highland Games, next one will be a mango tea pale..

Great way to (cheaply) experiment....


----------



## Vini2ton (9/6/15)

I gotta euro lager can I'll bang in with 3.5kg of grain. WLP-810. But you gotta have the grain. It's such a jump in taste.


----------



## Burt de Ernie (9/6/15)

Benn said:


> Renting: Moving house every couple of years and not being able to build/set something really good up in my own shed is a bit of a deterrent for me, living an hour and a half away from the nearest Home Brew shop does'nt help either. As with most pursuits learning to crawl before you walk is important, I understand there is roughly three tiers to Home Brewing? 1) Dump 'n' stir (2) BIAB etc. (3) All Grain. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
> I use kits and have just began experimenting with hops and different yeasts, bought an STC 1000 so proper temp controll will hopefully be achieved within the next brew or two. All grain is definately something to work towards.


Benn....not to mention the cost of AG.

My advice to you is start AG after you have saved your deposit.....


----------



## Judanero (9/6/15)

Time and equipment.

I wanted to go all grain straight away but thought while I'm gathering the equipment I can do kits and bits and get the process down pat first.

Equipment: A good thermometer, a fridge with stc, a heat belt, decent size stock pot, and a four ring burner. I am fortunate enough to have the space for all this but many people do not.


----------



## tj2204 (10/6/15)

For me it's small children and time, I'm also pretty happy with the quality of beers I'm making at this stage. Bulk sacks of DME make each batch a lot cheaper than tins of goop too.

I can easily do an extract w/ steeped grains brew on a week night at the same time as cooking dinner for the family, and do it all in the kitchen. 

I'm sure I'll give all grain a crack at some stage down the track but it won't be any time soon.


----------



## mongey (11/6/15)

I'd love to give it a try but space is the big one for me with time a close 2nd with a 4month old baby

3rd is the missus reaction when I bring home more gear from the shop for brewing . I'm a musican as well and I already have a sunroom full of expensive gear

when we get a house next year I hope I have some space to get a bit more involved and give AG a try. I worked as a prep and line cook for 2 years and enjoy cooking so I do enjoy that side of it. messing with ingredients and such.


----------



## Tahoose (11/6/15)

To be fair a BIAB bag, and a 19ltr pot from big w can get you into small batch AG very cheaply.

See here

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/38674-move-to-all-grain-for-thirty-bucks/?fromsearch=1


----------



## yankinoz (11/6/15)

dicko said:


> HERE is a great explanation of the economics of getting into AG brewing.
> 
> My mention of this link does not mean that I am in any way affiliated with the company however, this bloke has done the sums and makes for an interesting take on the subject, particularly in reference to saving money over time.


Try the calculations with BIAB, a cheap box for insulation, a cheap fermenter and a bottle capper.

To answer the poster's question, I stayed with extract for a year and half because I live in Outer Gippsland and my kettle was only 14L capacity. That was it, period. I crossed into AG and mostly mash after a trip to Melbourne when I bought a larger kettle. Then at Bunnings I bought earth wool to line a box when I dropped my kettl in it for mashing, and later I sent for a top-notch thermometer. My equipment is worth less than $350 retail. Now I do BIAB.


----------



## stm (12/6/15)

Time, time and time.


----------



## mje1980 (12/6/15)

With no chill, the time factor can be reduced. Not just by the cooling time. My brewing patterns are months of no brewing, then, a quiet week will pop up, and bang, I'll fill 4 cubes or so in a few days. Often it'll be 2 double batches so I'm really only brewing twice. 4 cubes lasts me months, so, while a brewday is a good 4 hours or so, it's 4 hours every few months to keep me supplied for months. 

Depends on consumption but if you have a big big pot etc.

Just my .02c


----------



## petesbrew (20/6/15)

Bomber Watson said:


> Personally I despise peer pressure.
> 
> It is very strong on this forum.
> 
> ...


LOL you're right, it probably was a bit of peer pressure that got me into AG brewing, but it was only ever in the form of friendly banter from guys I met here and elsewhere who turned into good mates, offering advice, old unwanted gear, big brewdays together to learn the ropes, etc.
Nothing wrong with KnK & Extract. It's all about getting creative and having fun.


----------



## Gelding (20/6/15)

Bomber Watson said:


> In my introductory thread I specifically pointed out that I'm happy doing full extract, and following that the majority of the posts were wankers posting ghetto ways to go grain and telling me how vastly superior it is.


Actually I looked at your introductory post and could only see one person encouraging you that way. :blink:

Wankers. You know who you are...... admit it!


----------



## Benn (6/7/15)

Benn said:


> Renting: Moving house every couple of years and not being able to build/set something really good up in my own shed is a bit of a deterrent for me, living an hour and a half away from the nearest Home Brew shop does'nt help either. As with most pursuits learning to crawl before you walk is important, I understand there is roughly three tiers to Home Brewing? 1) Dump 'n' stir (2) BIAB etc. (3) All Grain. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
> I use kits and have just began experimenting with hops and different yeasts, bought an STC 1000 so proper temp controll will hopefully be achieved within the next brew or two. All grain is definately something to work towards.


This thread has promted me to do a lot of reading. After looking into AG further and some of the brew rigs other members have built I'm sure I can build a portable/modular rig that will work for me. I've already got a 90L pot that should work as a HLT, a new 60L esky, a keg and a heap of other miscellaneous bits and pieces. Welding up a frame will be no problem either. Got a busy schedule coming up but I hope to be AG brewing by summer.


----------



## pist (9/7/15)

I didnt go ag straight away as i did alot of research and at that point biab had not come along. Cost and effort involved were big show stoppers for me. Time to brew is what i still struggle to find so 3v was not going to ever cut it. Biab came along and i got myself together a gas fired single batch setup. Now im doing full volumw doubles


----------

