# Sodium Metabisulphite Sterilising Powder



## Wax (5/3/04)

Has any one used sodium metabisulphite sterilising powder? It's only $7.50 for 1kg from ibrew about the same price as I pay for iodophor but 1kg sounds like it may go a bit further.

Is it any good?


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## wedge (5/3/04)

there's that can of worms again!


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## wardy (5/3/04)

i've been warned against it Wax, but i'm sure there's a dozen good reasons why you can use it. but i think the main reason not to, is it doesn't have the oxidising strength of chlorine based products etc to properly sanitise.


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## crackers (5/3/04)

gday wax,
i believe im one of very few brewers who still use it.
i have had no trouble with any infected bottles, so i contunie to use it.
my local heath food shop (hb stockist) only sells this so its more convienient for me.
i fill the bath tub up with hot water and the sod met (a little more than directed).
using a jug fill each bottle up with the solution,
and let soak over night.
drian and store away in boxes till needed.
of course i look at each bottle before bottling, any suspect ones (very rare)
i put aside to wash again.

hope this helps. 

cheers
crackers


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## Wax (5/3/04)

Cheers Crackers,

You said you drain and then store it... No need to rinse with boiled water or anything?


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## crackers (5/3/04)

wax,
i dont rinse, and have had no trouble.

cheers
crackers


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## JasonY (5/3/04)

Yep seems like 95% of brewers are against it, but I have used nothing else and have had no problems. I rinse everything after use and then before I fill agian give a rinse or soak in sodium met followed by a quick rinse of water. Hasn't let me down yet. 

One trick that the local HBS guy told me was to put about 1 inch of sodium met solution in the botton of your fermenter when not in use. Guarenteed that everyhting in there is dead (just dont open and sniff  ). Apparently it can make plastic go brittle but I figure its going to take a long time for that.

Anyway I use it with no probs whatsoever.


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## dicko (5/3/04)

Hi to all!
If the decision on what you use for sanitizing is based on price alone as in Wax's firt post, then I recon you cant go past a bottle of uncented bleach from Bi - Lo or similar for a couple of bucks.
One capful in a few litres of water and youve got cheap sterilizer for plastic fermenters and glass bottles.
I would check its suitability on other metals before use.
I use this to leave in my fermenter till next use and it works fine.
Dont mix it with Phosphoric Acid!
Cheers


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## PostModern (5/3/04)

Sodium Met is a bacterial inhibitor, not a sterilising agent. ie, it will prevent bacteria from growing but it does not kill all spores. Use in conjunction with something else.


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## Goat (5/3/04)

Excuse my ignorance, but is that the pink powder stuff sodium met. that smells and feels like bleach?


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## sosman (5/3/04)

Sodium met is a white, stinky powder. Can cause serious asthma attacks in some people (including non-asthmatics). As someone pointed out, it is a bacteriostatic. I think home brew stores sell it because it is used somehow in winemaking.

I have heard that people use it in mashing to combat odixation so I imagine not-rinsing is unlikely to be a big issue.

I used to use it until I did my own research. To be honest though I never had an infection with it.

Brewiki: cleaning and sanitation

I exclusively use a phosphoric acid based sanitiser now. No rinse required.


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## Jazman (5/3/04)

i reckon sodium meb be a good toilet cleaner


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## Gout (5/3/04)

sod met will kill your fermentor, i have to yellow yucky stinky ones to prove it. Bleach cleaned them somewhat but still i hate the stuff. Makes me cough also

bahhh 
go the phos. acid


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## wee stu (6/3/04)

If it's all you've ever used, and you're happy - then so be it.

Almost any other HB cleaner and sanitiser, including the good old bi-lo bleach, is a lot more user friendly (ie doesn't make you cough and splutter, stink out the brewhouse, leave an awful aftertase in the mouth).

Try orthophosphoric acid (Grumpys one shot), or even Brewiser Brew-shield (hydrogen peroxide based), Both have high dilution rates, which make them a lot more cost effective then first purchase suggests and they are a lot more user friendly (don't even need rinsing). 

For my comfort levels, even good old neo pink (chlorine based?) is a better option - and not that much more expensive than SMB.


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## sosman (6/3/04)

FWIW orthophosphoric acid == phosphoric acid.


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## wee stu (8/3/04)

sosman - cheers, that's a lot easier to type (and say)!


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## Jovial_Monk (8/3/04)

I sell it as Terminater for $5.95

Jovial Monk


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## sosman (27/3/04)

wardy said:


> it doesn't have the oxidising strength of chlorine based products etc to properly sanitise.


 In fact it is apparently used to *prevent oxidation* by adding small amounts to the mash.


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## Pat Casey (27/3/04)

Sodium met is a bacterial inhibitor rather than a bacteriocide. It works on fumes rather than contact. It does not need to be rinsed. It is also an anti-oxidant.

The pink stuff aka Neo-Pink, Pink Stain Remover is chlorinated trisodium phosphate. It is a combined cleanser and sanitiser. Because of the chlorine it does need to be rinsed, and rinsed well, especially if there is any grain about.

Apart from Iodophor, there is also the silver ions in 3% hydrogen peroxide sold as either 'Brewshield' or 'Sanitize' - it is used at 30 mls per litre. It is very effective but also expensive. Both of these are contact sanitisers and can be used in a mist sprayer.

But of course the critical factor in sanitation iis what you do rather than the chemicals you use. If you have any respiratory problems give sodium met a miss. The reason it is so commonly used is a hang-over from amateur wine making where it is used for both its anti-oxidiant and as well as its bacterial inhibiting properties - amateur brewers could not really get anything else except bleach.

Pat


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## sosman (28/3/04)

Pat Casey said:


> But of course the critical factor in sanitation iis what you do rather than the chemicals you use. If you have any respiratory problems give sodium met a miss. The reason it is so commonly used is a hang-over from amateur wine making where it is used for both its anti-oxidiant and as well as its bacterial inhibiting properties - amateur brewers could not really get anything else except bleach.


 I would say that both the right medicine and good technique are important. You can't brew coffee with sawdust. Also the chemicals influence your technique, eg to rinse or not to rinse. With bleach you have no choice, with Iodophor and phos acid based stuff its your choice.

I understand that people without a previous history of asthma can be affected by sodium met.

I agree on the wine making bit, unfortunately it is common for home brew stores to promote it to new brewers as a sanitiser (my personal experience). This is very unfortunate.

The bottom line for me is I can see absolutely no justification for using sodium met. for sanitation, it dips out on: performance, economics and safety.


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## deebee (28/3/04)

I recently bought a bottle of "Sanitise" - hydrogen peroxide and silver ions - just to try it out. I normally use grumpys one-shot - orthophosphoric acid based. The Sanitise is very easy but really expensive - 30 mls make up a litre. 250ml cost $6.50. That's close enough to 80c a litre.

One shot takes only 5ml per litre and I often make up a big 5litre batch. Cheap.

No problems with its performance, but I can't see myself buying sanitise again.


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## sosman (28/3/04)

Sodium percarbonate forms a solution of hydrogen peroxide in solution (up to 15%) although it is promoted as a cleaner (I use it for cleaning), it does kill some bugs and is a fungicide. I bought a 25 kg bag for $125 and my missus uses more of it in the laundry than I do for brewing.

IIRC Napisan is about 25% sodium percarbonate, Oxiclean is similar. Unfortunately these things have other ingredients that I am not to sure of in a food environment, especially since I don't like to rinse.

Bottom line is, if you are paying 80c /litre then you're wasting money IMHO.

I found a few places to buy this and phos. acid, checkout brewiki: cleaning and sanitation

PS I also add LABS acid to my cleaning and sanitising solutions, the foam gets in without the need to make 23 litres of solution.


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## DaveR (29/3/04)

Hi Guys,

I don't think that I will ever have to buy a sanitiser again ever. After seeing the previous posts, I did some research and found a product called "ELIMINATE". It is a commercial grade product used in the dairy industry. It is a lo-foam liquid phosphoric acid. I paid $40 for 5ltr and is diluted @ 20ml for 10 ltr.

so
2ml = 1 ltr
5ltr makes 2500 ltrs
around 1.6 cents a ltr

This stuff apparently is used just like one-shot, just let the solution pass over and no rinse required.

I was lucky to get a 5ltr lot, but the guy said that they are no doing any more 5ltr lots as the dairy farmers need more. Maybe some guys could split a 20l one up. They are $140 for 20l.


url: http://www.dasco.com.au/acidic_products.htm

Cheers,
Dave


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## Jovial_Monk (29/3/04)

And I sell the phosphoric acid thing 65c cheaper than grumpies 

Jovial Monk


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## sosman (29/3/04)

DaveR said:


> 2ml = 1 ltr
> 5ltr makes 2500 ltrs
> around 1.6 cents a ltr


 You can't complain about that. I couldn't find an MSDS at DASCO but I would be suprised if it was phosphoric acid alone if those are the recommended dilutions.

Some of the stronger dairy cleaners add other acids, IIRC such as nitric and oxalic.


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## DaveR (29/3/04)

It says 709g/L PHOSPHORIC ACID Active Constituent on the 5l container.

Low foaming acid dairy sanitiser.


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## sosman (29/3/04)

I generally aim for about 0.5-1% phosphoric acid solution. I also add foaming agent to mine deliberately so it gets into all the nooks.


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## dicko (29/3/04)

Sosman,

What is the foaming agent that you use?

Cheers


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## DaveR (29/3/04)

It already has a foaming agent in it. I don't know what it is. The instructions say's that 20ml makes 10 ltrs. So I made up a 1 ltr bottle with 20ml, and when I need to make some up I will use 100ml of this for every 1 ltr that I need. They also say you can reuse it too. But at that price, why bother.


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## sosman (29/3/04)

Big Beer Belly said:


> What is the foaming agent that you use?


I use LABS acid. Its really just a concentrated, unadulterated detergent. The full name is too much of a mouthful.

I bought it from Advance Chemicals. I listed their details (and Hucon's) at
Brewiki: cleaning and sanitation

1 litre will last you a very long time indeed. I don't actually measure it but I aim for roughly 1:10:2000 (LABSAHOS:water). To be honest I taste it to check the dilution. I might have mentioned 2% earlier, I am confusing the amount of phos acid they (used to) put in Coca cola.

On the weekend I cleaned a keg and after letting the foam do its magic I turn it upside down to drain. I wish I had taken some pictures (didn't want to put the beer at risk though) cos when I siphoned the beer into the keg, the foam got pushed out the top and I ended up with a snake of foam about 60cm long.

Since rinsing would kind of defeat the purpose (and I couldn't be bothered), I wouldn't use kitchen detergent due to the smell and other stuff in it, I would just dilute the phos acid and shake it around a lot.

I also keep a spray bottle of ~1% solution handy. Anything that even goes near the beer cops it, including my hands - keep it out of your face though.


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## Linz (29/3/04)

guys,
Just looked at the link for Dasco and the one I use would be similar to the one listed as "IOPHOS" which is just above the "ELIMINATE"


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## DaveR (29/3/04)

This is a pic of the container that I got. 

Linz, I was going to get the IPHOS one too, but decided not too as it has iodine in it. Don't want the fermenter going a funny colour.







Cheers


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## tonydav (27/4/05)

I really wish I'd read this thread 3 or 4 weeks ago. I've always used neopink with no issues. Then I read that neopink can damage your keg so when I was at the HBS I was advised to use Sodium Metabisulfate in my keg. 

Of course I took this a step further and used it in about 5 batches of brew. 3 were really bad, 1 okay to drink if necessary and 1 fine with a minor blemish. 

It had me totally stumped as I'm paranoid about cleaning. Back to the neopink for todays batch......


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## Ross (27/4/05)

deebee said:


> I recently bought a bottle of "Sanitise" - hydrogen peroxide and silver ions - just to try it out. I normally use grumpys one-shot - orthophosphoric acid based. The Sanitise is very easy but really expensive - 30 mls make up a litre. 250ml cost $6.50. That's close enough to 80c a litre.
> 
> One shot takes only 5ml per litre and I often make up a big 5litre batch. Cheap.
> 
> ...



I use Hysan which is basically the concentrated version of Sanitise - costs $22 for 1L or $80 for 5L. Recommended dilution is 1ml per litre. totally clear/odourless/no rinse. Completely sanitises in 7 mins & can be reused many times...


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## johnno (27/4/05)

Ross said:


> deebee said:
> 
> 
> > I recently bought a bottle of "Sanitise" - hydrogen peroxide and silver ions - just to try it out. I normally use grumpys one-shot - orthophosphoric acid based. The Sanitise is very easy but really expensive - 30 mls make up a litre. 250ml cost $6.50. That's close enough to 80c a litre.
> ...




I use Orthophosphoric acid with some very foamy labs acid mixed in. 1.3 ml per litre and a couple of drops of the Labs in about a 10 litre mix. 
The ortho was about $8 for a litre and the labs about $7 for 500 ml. That will last a heck of a long time.

cheers
johnno


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## Tub (28/4/05)

> I use Hysan which is basically the concentrated version of Sanitise - costs $22 for 1L or $80 for 5L. Recommended dilution is 1ml per litre. totally clear/odourless/no rinse. Completely sanitises in 7 mins & can be reused many times...


 :blink: 

I once asked about whether sanitise could be mixed in a container and saved for future use. General consensus was that its effectiveness would diminish fairly rapidly.

Do you mean that it can be re-used many times in the one session?

PB


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## Ross (28/4/05)

Tub said:


> > I use Hysan which is basically the concentrated version of Sanitise - costs $22 for 1L or $80 for 5L. Recommended dilution is 1ml per litre. totally clear/odourless/no rinse. Completely sanitises in 7 mins & can be reused many times...
> 
> 
> :blink:
> ...



Sanitise is a very diluted product, but should still be able to be used quite a few times (just remember it takes 7 mins to fully sterilise). The Hysan is so cheap, that I have 25L made up to double strength in a cube with a tap & pour off into a 2L lemonade bottle for general use - when I've reused this half a dozen times, I just throw away & pour a new bottle...


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