# AHB Wiki: Using Coopers Bottle Yeast



## braufrau

This is the discussion topic for article: Using Coopers Bottle Yeast


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## braufrau

braufrau said:


> This is the discussion topic for article: Using Coopers Bottle Yeast




Nice work.

Now what do they say about asking a brewer and getting how many answers? 

I'm just watching my coopers culture going beserk at the moment. 

Here's some comments.

*Its handy to remember that the wort is made 1:10 malt to water by weight.
* I cool the wort in a closed vessel in a water bath. Maybe I'm paranoid, but fridges are germy places.
* Stirring makes a huge difference to the quality of the starter. If you don't have a stir plate, shake the fermenter whenever you think of it.
* Stepping up the wort to 1.5l will make sure you have an appropriate yeast population for 23l. I step up from 500ml to 1.5l after 2 day and ferment another 2 days.


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## Enerjex

thanks for opening the thread braufrau,

*yes keep the ratio of ldme to 1:10 with water
*i didn't do it this time, but next time i make one i will cover my hot wort with gladwrap in the fridge
*i don't have a stir plate, i just swished the bottle in a circular motion whenever going past it instead of shaking
*My 23 litre batch kicked off beaut just using the 600ml starter (turns out more like 800ml once you added the bottle dregs), however my beer had an OG of 1.034 so increasing the starter to 1.5 litres after 2-3 days may be a good idea for higher gravity beers. (thankyou for this suggestion i left out braufrau)

cheers


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## bottle top

Just to confirm - you pitch the entire starter, not just the yeasty dregs?

Do you pitch the starter after it is fermented, or while it is going strong?

Thanks.


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## tangent

maybe i wouldn't put the open jug of wort in the fridge. i pour into a sanitised coke bottle immersed in cold water after it's cooled a little, but still covered.
also, try to use coopers bottles dated as early as possible, even before, the best after date, the yeast is more viable. 
also, try tipping 85% of a SIXPACK into pint glasses and 15% into the starter to triple your yeast count/enjoyment.


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## Kai

bottle top said:


> Just to confirm - you pitch the entire starter, not just the yeasty dregs?
> 
> Do you pitch the starter after it is fermented, or while it is going strong?
> 
> Thanks.




The best time to pitch is when the starter is going strong. However, if you can't coincide your brewing with that then chilling the fermented starter and just pitching the slurry at the bottom will also work well.


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## braufrau

bottle top said:


> Just to confirm - you pitch the entire starter, not just the yeasty dregs?
> 
> Do you pitch the starter after it is fermented, or while it is going strong?
> 
> Thanks.




I pitch the entire starter. With 1.5l I have to remember to fill the fermenter within 2l of the desired volume
(23l or whatever I'm doing) and then pitch the yeast. 

Like Kai said, you pitch when its going strong. Its a bit hard to judge when the peak performance
will be but my procedure is
500ml starter stirred for 2 days
Add 1000ml of wort and stir for 2days.

After 2 days the 1.5l starter is almost climbing out of the 2l bottle I use.

The last brew I did started bubbling in about 2 hours after pitching, so I'm confident the yeast
was doing well.

Oh, and its a good idea to taste the culture before pitching to make sure you're pitching yeast.


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## turto77

Awesome article Braufrau, i am looking to start doing this myself and you have saved me a heap of time by puting all the info in one spot.
Thanks

Turto
Beer is Life


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## braufrau

Turto said:


> Awesome article Braufrau, i am looking to start doing this myself and you have saved me a heap of time by puting all the info in one spot.
> Thanks
> 
> Turto
> Beer is Life




Don't thank me! Thank Enerjex. He did the nice pdf and went to the effort of posting to the wiki. :super:


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## tangent

isn't an uneditable PDF going against the whole point of a Wiki?
I'd certainly like to add some points but I cant.


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## drsmurto

tangent said:


> isn't an uneditable PDF going against the whole point of a Wiki?
> I'd certainly like to add some points but I cant.



Thought that too.

If you are cooling the mini-wort in the fridge shouldn't you at least cover it with some cling film? 

And could we please remove the letter z from sterilise or more correctly, sanitise. If this is meant to be a wiki we need the terminology to be spot on i last time i checked z isn't used to spell either of these words.

Apart from those 2 points its pretty much how i go about this although i will be looking for a stir plate soon...

Cheers for that Enerjex, should help the first timers out.


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## Enerjex

Yes I noted that I will use cling wrap next time in an earlier post, I'll leave the PDF for another week or so then do a revision with the suggestions in a .doc file that can be edited.


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## tangent

not a file, just add it in the wiki, then it can be edited.


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## warra48

Kai said:


> The best time to pitch is when the starter is going strong. However, if you can't coincide your brewing with that then chilling the fermented starter and just pitching the slurry at the bottom will also work well.



I prefer to pitch just the slurry. I don't need an extra 1 litres of plain starter beer to mess up an AG recipe.


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## Plastic Man

Great article.

We have a small informal brew club at work and one of the guys did similar instructions. Almost the same - though which is good. I've attached it if anyones interested. We've found the time suggestions are probably a bit understated though and a couple of days is better than the 24 hours used.

View attachment RECULTURING_LIQUID_YEAST_FROM_A_COOPERS_BOTTLE.doc


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## tangent

> I don't need an extra 1 litres of plain beer to mess up an AG recipe.


???

edit - oh you mean the DME starter!?


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## warra48

tangent said:


> ???
> 
> edit - oh you mean the DME starter!?



Yep, that's what I meant.
Nice article, very useful. I cultured a Cooper's yeast a few brews back, although I'm currently working my way through batch of WLP001 cultures.


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## anc001

just wanted to mention www.oztops.com.au these packs include lids to fit softdrink bottles, they have a CO2 valve/membrane thingo in the lid so they are so convenient for making starters, I make a starter up in a 750mL plastic longneck, then esccalate to a 1.5 or 2L softy bottle, no need for a rubber band and gladwrap or to unscrew the cap and risk germs getting in. You can get these little packs from Grumpy's and other retailers for about $25, you get 4 lids for softdrink bottles, 4 for juice bottles and 2 containers of dried yeasts.

For the use in making starters alone it has made its money back many times for me.
cheers.


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## Rocket_fuel

Ive had 2 bottles of coopers pale ale that i am planning on using to reculture, i have done what the wiki says and pored into a glass then sealed the bottle quickly. They have been in the fridge like that for about 3 weeks now so do you think they will still be alright to use now?


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## redbeard

as long as there is some beer over the yeast, should be ok. if it smells ok, give it a try. ive collected dregs over a couple weeks, then built up a starter.


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## reveler

is it possible to do this with your own home brews. I have a wheat beer that I brewed using Wyeast 3068. Instead of buying a new smack pack, could I just culture some out of my current batch?


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## Stuster

Reveler said:


> is it possible to do this with your own home brews. I have a wheat beer that I brewed using Wyeast 3068. Instead of buying a new smack pack, could I just culture some out of my current batch?



It's certainly possible, but it's risky. I've cultured up a number of yeasts from Xmas swap bottles. Some have worked out fine, some have seemed fine in the starter and then developed off-flavours or contamination. After a few duds, I've basically given up on this, because I just can't justify losing a whole batch to save a few bucks. Not saying you shouldn't give it a go though, but in the case of a wheat beer, I'd be even more wary as they seem to be the yeasts that keep the worst. Sorry to sound so pessimistic. If you want to do it, I'd say to make a small starter first (200ml or so), step it up several times, and use your nose and tongue as your guide.


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## pcmfisher

Hi all,
Have just started home brewing again after some years. I am interested in re-culturing some cpa yeast. I was just wondering why you use LDME? Could you get the same results with just dextrose? Maybe its a silly question
Thanks


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## pcmfisher

BTW -- Huge forum


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## braufrau

pcmfisher said:


> Hi all,
> Have just started home brewing again after some years. I am interested in re-culturing some cpa yeast. I was just wondering why you use LDME? Could you get the same results with just dextrose? Maybe its a silly question
> Thanks




snot a silly question.
According to Jamil Zainasheff in "brewing Class Styles", if you use dextrose, table sugar etc. your yeast population that you create will lack the ability 
to ferment maltose, the main sugar in malt!


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## drsmurto

The wiki still has sterilise spelt incorrectly and also still has a photo showing a jug of malt solution cooling in the fridge, uncovered. Not ideal if this is meant to help out new brewers.

Apart from the semantics with US vs English spelling of words i think sterilise is also incorrect, particularly if you are putting unsealed containers into a fridge.

We sanitise, not sterilise.

Apart from those points its a good set of instructions.


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## Mantis

Going to try this in a few weeks when I try a CSA kit. Thanks for the intructions. 
Seems pretty easy if the sanitation is up to scratch eh. 
Will definetely try the sniff and taste test before pitching tho


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## samhighley

Mantis said:


> Going to try this in a few weeks when I try a CSA kit. Thanks for the intructions.



Just make sure you have the yeast starter well and truly ready to pitch before you make the wort.

Otherwise it could go the way of my CSA kit.

Sam


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## Captain Jack Sparrow

Hi enerjex. Hey, I've never used this method before. I've only ever used packet yeast, so I'm a novice at this. My question is this: Coopers use a different yeast in their commercial primary fermentation which is separated off, and a different yeast is introduced during bottling for the secondary. Is the secondary yeast as good as the primary? They obviously carefully protect their primary yeast from the likes of us by doing this. Is it worth our effort only to end up with what yeast Coopers use for carbonation?


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## braufrau

Cap'n Jack ... that's a myth.
Its the same yeast in primary and bottle ...except for vintage.


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## Captain Jack Sparrow

braufrau said:


> Cap'n Jack ... that's a myth.
> Its the same yeast in primary and bottle ...except for vintage.




Hi BF. I'm not so sure. Click this: http://www.coopers.com.au/virtualBrewTour/default.php and look at step 10 onward of the 'Conditioned beers' virtual tour. I reckon they are being sneaky so we can't get it the same as their product. How does it come up, anyway? Better than the supplied yeast or brew shop yeast?


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## Adamt

The conditioning yeast strain is the same as the primary yeast strain, they just add in fresh to ensure it goes the journey (this is great for us too trying to reculture it). THere is no dry strain on the market that is close to it in flavour profile (banana, pear, bread).

Cheers
Adam


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## troydo

Reveler said:


> is it possible to do this with your own home brews. I have a wheat beer that I brewed using Wyeast 3068. Instead of buying a new smack pack, could I just culture some out of my current batch?



Hi reveler, 

I went to a chat with the heads of white labs a few weeks ago, and something to bear in mind if your culturing from the bottle is your culturing the yeast that is more prone to floctate, so if your going for a hefe for instance your next brew will probably not have as much yeast that stays suspended and end up with more on the bottom of the bottle.


* edit, i just noticed the date... ohh well


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## braufrau

Troydo said:


> Hi reveler,
> 
> I went to a chat with the heads of white labs a few weeks ago, and something to bear in mind if your culturing from the bottle is your culturing the yeast that is more prone to floctate, so if your going for a hefe for instance your next brew will probably not have as much yeast that stays suspended and end up with more on the bottom of the bottle.
> 
> 
> * edit, i just noticed the date... ohh well



I always take 100ml off my starter before pitching, that way i figure the yeast hasn't evolved to adapt to fermenter conditions ... at least that's my guess. hopefully the stir plate is such a perfect environment it doesn't strongly select for any particular characterics.


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## braufrau

OK ... from the horses mouth (aka Frank at Coopers). Not sure why he's calling me Megan ... oh well! 


G'day Megan, yes we are aware of this practice - in fact we encourage it
by providing a procedure for those wanting to culture our yeast from the
bottle. The same strain of yeast is used for seeding the bottles as for
primary fermentation. For a more detailed description of our procedures
do the virtual tour:
http://www.coopers.com.au/virtualBrewTour/default.php

Cheers,

Frank Akers
Customer Service
Coopers Brewery
461 South Road
Regency Park
SA 5010

Ph: 08 8440 1800

If you like the beer, you'll love the Club!

http://www.coopers.com.au 





-----Original Message-----
From: Samantha Lane [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, 20 April 2008 8:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: CSA yeast


Hi,

I'm sure you know that many homebrewers culture your yeast from CSA 
and CPA bottles.
There is some debate whether the yeast in the bottles is the same as 
that used for primary fermentation.
Can you tell us the truth please?

regards
Samantha


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## AndrewQLD

braufrau said:


> OK ... from the horses mouth (aka Frank at Coopers). Not sure why he's calling me Megan ... oh well!
> 
> 
> G'day Megan, yes we are aware of this practice - in fact we encourage it
> by providing a procedure for those wanting to culture our yeast from the
> bottle. The same strain of yeast is used for seeding the bottles as for
> primary fermentation. For a more detailed description of our procedures
> do the virtual tour:
> http://www.coopers.com.au/virtualBrewTour/default.php
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Frank Akers
> Customer Service
> Coopers Brewery
> 461 South Road
> Regency Park
> SA 5010
> 
> Ph: 08 8440 1800
> 
> If you like the beer, you'll love the Club!
> 
> http://www.coopers.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Samantha Lane [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Sunday, 20 April 2008 8:09 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: CSA yeast
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm sure you know that many homebrewers culture your yeast from CSA
> and CPA bottles.
> There is some debate whether the yeast in the bottles is the same as
> that used for primary fermentation.
> Can you tell us the truth please?
> 
> regards
> Samantha



Great post Braufrau, I won't call you Megan :lol: . That should definately dispel a lot of the false rumors in regards to the yeast.

Now, since you have a contact who seems to be happy to educate us how about broaching the subject of sugar in the Coopers Pale Ale. It would be good to confirm (or not) if they are still using sugar in their recipe, it's a bit of a bone of contention within the community here.

Cheers

Andrew


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## geoffi

AndrewQLD said:


> Great post Braufrau, I won't call you Megan :lol: . That should definately dispel a lot of the false rumors in regards to the yeast.
> 
> Now, since you have a contact who seems to be happy to educate us how about broaching the subject of sugar in the Coopers Pale Ale. It would be good to confirm (or not) if they are still using sugar in their recipe, it's a bit of a bone of contention within the community here.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andrew




I seriously doubt they could get the FG down as low as it goes without simple sugar, cane or otherwise.

FWIW, I've just done two CPA clones, using yeast cultured from the bottles. 18% cane sugar. Both have hit FGs of 1.005, the CPA FG.


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## AndrewQLD

Geoffi said:


> I seriously doubt they could get the FG down as low as it goes without simple sugar, cane or otherwise.
> 
> FWIW, I've just done two CPA clones, using yeast cultured from the bottles. 18% cane sugar. Both have hit FGs of 1.005, the CPA FG.



I agree totally Geoffi, and it's good to see your FG ended where it should too. Please post your results when you sample them.

Andrew


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## geoffi

AndrewQLD said:


> I agree totally Geoffi, and it's good to see your FG ended where it should too. Please post your results when you sample them.
> 
> Andrew




I'll be starting on the first keg on the weekend. The samples I've had have been pretty darned good. Cold and carbed I think this should be a cracker. It really has those Cooper's flavours going on.

When I first started homebrewing (18 years ago!!) culturing Coopers ale yeast was the first 'tricky' technique I tried. (No liquid yeast around then.) I had some pretty good results flavour-wise, but I think my starters were too small and my gravities never got down low enough. I haven't done it for quite a while but I'm very impressed with it this time around.


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## AndrewQLD

Geoffi said:


> I'll be starting on the first keg on the weekend. The samples I've had have been pretty darned good. Cold and carbed I think this should be a cracker. It really has those Cooper's flavours going on.
> 
> When I first started homebrewing (18 years ago!!) culturing Coopers ale yeast was the first 'tricky' technique I tried. (No liquid yeast around then.) I had some pretty good results flavour-wise, but I think my starters were too small and my gravities never got down low enough. I haven't done it for quite a while but I'm very impressed with it this time around.



Large starter and VERY aerated wort seems to work very well as far as attenuation is concerned, getting the beer down to 1.005 there abouts is one of the most important keys to reproducing this beer. I've found that if you can't get the FG to 1.005 you end up with a very unbalanced beer, slightly sweet given the low IBU's but also very bland and sickly since there is no hop to balance the sweetness. But if you get good attenuation it brings everything together.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Captain Jack Sparrow

Thank you BF for all your detective work. The issue is settled, and you seem well connected at Coopers! Would this yeast be any good in a Lager? I'm keen to give it a try, but my next planned brew is lager. Thanks again. -CJS


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## geoffi

I'm just trying my first glass out of the keg now.

I'm very happy with this effort. The aroma is really very close to CPA. Flavour is very good. Subtly fruity. Maybe just a little too 'malty', and the colour a little dark -- more like CSA, but with CPA gravity. I used JW Trad Ale. Next time I'll cut it a bit, maybe do 50/50 with Pils malt.

But it's not like I'm complaining. This is an excellent beer. In spite of the high attenuation it doesn't seem overly dry.

I'm going to reuse this yeast for a Cooper's Dark Ale clone next up.


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## geoffi

Actually makes me wonder: what other styles have people used this yeast for? I suppose it could work well in most English-style ales, especially without the sugar addition so the FG doesn't get too low.


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## braufrau

And the answer to the sugar question ... I feel like these two bits of info should go somewhere prominent so every time the debate starts again we can easily reference them 

----------------

No, I don't have time to surf the net but someone emailed me the post so I
thought I'd better apologise. It really is a mystery (where the name came
from). 

*Re the sugar: Original Pale Ale is an all-malt brew, apart from priming
sugar, which is liquid invert sugar (sucrose) and Sparkling Ale can have up
to 5% sugar in the wort at times, depending on the quality of the malt.
Nothing like the 30 - 40% sugar that goes into some of the mainstream lager
beers in Australia.*

Cheers, Frank. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 12:44 PM
To: Frank Akers
Subject: RE: CSA yeast


Oh! I think you saw my post on aussiehomebrewer then?

Well at the risk of prying into industrial secrets, can you comment on the
debate about whether there is sugar in the CSA and CPA wort?

regards
Samantha

> > I've got no idea where I got Megan from either! Sorry
> > about that Samantha.
> > 
> > Cheers, Frank.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Samantha Lane [mailto:[email protected]ternode.on.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 5:49 PM
> > To: Frank Akers
> > Subject: Re: CSA yeast
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks Frank! Hopefully we can put the myth that the
> > bottling yeast is different to rest now.
> > Although anyone who's used the yeast from the bottles can tell by 
> > taste that's the case!
> > 
> > thanks again
> > Samantha
> > 
> > Frank Akers wrote:
>> > > G'day Megan, yes we are aware of this practice - in fact
>> > > we encourage it by providing a procedure for those
>> > > wanting to culture our yeast from the bottle. The same strain of 
>> > > yeast is used for seeding the bottles as for primary fermentation. 
>> > > For a more detailed description of our procedures do the virtual 
>> > > tour:
> > http://www.coopers.com.au/virtualBrewTour/default.php >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > >
>> > > Frank Akers
>> > > Customer Service
>> > > Coopers Brewery
>> > > 461 South Road
>> > > Regency Park
>> > > SA 5010
>> > >
>> > > Ph: 08 8440 1800
>> > >
>> > > If you like the beer, you'll love the Club!
>> > >
>> > > http://www.coopers.com.au
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Samantha Lane [mailto:[email protected]]
>> > > Sent: Sunday, 20 April 2008 8:09 AM
>> > > To: [email protected]
>> > > Subject: CSA yeast
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > I'm sure you know that many homebrewers culture your yeast from 
>> > > CSA and CPA bottles. There is some debate whether the yeast in the 
>> > > bottles is the same as that used for primary fermentation.
>> > > Can you tell us the truth please?
>> > >
>> > > regards
>> > > Samantha
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >


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## AndrewQLD

Well there you go then, I will now have to do some more work on my CPA clone and see if I can get the same results using an all malt recipe. Looks like I might have to change the mash regime as well to get the kind of attenuation required.

Thanks for taking the time to confirm the sugar situation Braufrau, I will put a link the this post in my CPA recipe discussion thread.

Cheers
Andrew


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## warrenlw63

Hey guys. While not trying to make this an all out clone (which it is far from) my latest batch of Willamette Sparkling Ale has flavour characteristics that are strikingly similar to CSA. I found a protein rest at 55 degrees for 20 minutes always seems to give me better attenuation.

For the record I used 5.7% sugar (I used Cooper's brewing sugar LOL!) in mine and say it would be spot on. If you were to sub the hops in this one for POR you'd go very close. I also lightly caramelised the first runnings to deepen the colour which probably sits a shade darker than the Promash specs. FWIW the actual colour is similar to CSA too.

What I find with this yeast is while a bit of it is still in suspension (takes a little while to clear) the flavours are more authentic when the beer is lightly hazy. As it clears over time the flavours always become a little more neutral.

Thanks for the great findings Braufrau.  I have to concur I think the strain we take from the bottle is similar if not entirely the same as the primary strain. Near enough for me anyway.

WSA

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

06-B Light Hybrid Beer, Blonde Ale

Min OG: 1.038 Max OG: 1.054
Min IBU: 15 Max IBU: 28
Min Clr: 4 Max Clr: 12 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 45.00 Wort Size (L): 45.00
Total Grain (kg): 8.70
Anticipated OG: 1.056 Plato: 13.86
Anticipated EBC: 14.3
Anticipated IBU: 27.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 90 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 58.06 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.044 SG 10.85 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
92.0 8.00 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 8
2.3 0.20 kg. Weyermann CaraWheat Germany 1.037 160
5.7 0.50 kg. Corn Sugar Generic 1.046 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
35.00 g. Wye Target Pellet 10.00 24.8 60 min.
20.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.60 1.7 15 min.
20.00 g. Willamette Pellet 4.60 1.1 5 min.


Yeast
-----

Coopers Australian Ale


Water Profile
-------------

Profile: 
Profile known for: 

Calcium(Ca): 0.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 0.0 ppm
Sodium(Na): 0.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 0.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 0.0 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3): 0.0 ppm

pH: 0.00


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: 

Total Grain kg: 8.20
Total Water Qts: 13.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 12.30 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00
Grain Temp: 20.50 C


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
protein rest 5 20 55 55 Infuse 64 12.30 1.50
Sacc Rest 5 60 65 65 Infuse 90 6.29 2.27


Total Water Qts: 19.65 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water L: 18.59 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume L: 24.07 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.
All infusion amounts are in Liters.
All infusion ratios are Liters/Kilograms.


Notes
-----

Lightly caramelised the first runnings


Warren -


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## geoffi

"Re the sugar: Original Pale Ale is an all-malt brew, apart from priming
sugar, which is liquid invert sugar (sucrose) and Sparkling Ale can have up
to 5% sugar in the wort at times, depending on the quality of the malt.
Nothing like the 30 - 40% sugar that goes into some of the mainstream lager
beers in Australia.

Cheers, Frank. "

So if this is the case, I guess you'd need a really low mash temp to get the fermentability. Also, the base malt they use must have a very light character if it makes up >90% of the grist.

Without trying to slavishly copy the original ingredients, I guess you could get a similar result with a 'maltier' malt and a dose of sugar. I certainly think my current version comes pretty close and it has 18% sugar.


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## AndrewQLD

Geoffi said:


> "Re the sugar: Original Pale Ale is an all-malt brew, apart from priming
> sugar, which is liquid invert sugar (sucrose) and Sparkling Ale can have up
> to 5% sugar in the wort at times, depending on the quality of the malt.
> Nothing like the 30 - 40% sugar that goes into some of the mainstream lager
> beers in Australia.
> 
> Cheers, Frank. "
> 
> So if this is the case, I guess you'd need a really low mash temp to get the fermentability. Also, the base malt they use must have a very light character if it makes up >90% of the grist.
> 
> Without trying to slavishly copy the original ingredients, I guess you could get a similar result with a 'maltier' malt and a dose of sugar. I certainly think my current version comes pretty close and it has 18% sugar.



I've been more than happy with my version as well and find it's very close to the mark, so it really doesn't need changing....
However I am such a purist at heart that the challenge of "cloning" this brew using ingredients as close to what Coopers use is too much to pass up  , I think I will try adapting my mash schedule for a more attenuative wort.

Andrew


----------



## geoffi

There was a view that the Mild Ale was simply the Pale without the sugar.

This kind of upsets that theory.


----------



## Graham E

wally said:


> CJS,
> 
> I wouldn't recommend it for a lager.
> 
> A lager needs to be brewed cold, around 10 - 12. Whilst the Coopers ale yeast is fairly hardy I'm sure it would struggle at the required temp. and not provide the appropriate flavours.
> 
> You would do better to get a good lager yeast.
> 
> 
> My 2 c worth.
> 
> Wally




Does anybody know the specifications of the Coopers Ale yeast (from the bottle) eg. temperature range?

Thanks

Graham E


----------



## geoffi

I have a dark ale fermenting with CPA yeast at 15c (ambient) now. It seems to be handling it fine, although there's a bit of 'arse' about it. I think this sulphury smell is normal for ales fermented at lower temps, and I assume that will dissipate with a bit of time.


----------



## rude

I just drink a middy @ a bit screw the cap back on the stubby. Then use a coffey cup half full of hot water mix 2 heaped desert spoons full of ldme, mix well put a thermometer in it, & when it is about 26c pour it into the coopers stubby, half fill it with the left overs give it a good swirl then put an airlock on it . I sanatise before hand with hot water wrap stubby up with a tea towel & leave at the back of a fridge ( made up a wooden frame with cardboard on top with holes in it). Monitor with thermometer, ranges from 26 to 22c. 2 to 3 days it gets a kruesan (bad spelling) about 5mm high & away you go. Never failed makes a great american pale ale. Just doing a muntons ipa using wyeast whitbread I've had a bit of trouble not as easy as the coopers pale ale yeast but then again made a few blews first brew in 3 years (kids)


----------



## chris.taylor.98

AndrewQLD said:


> I agree totally Geoffi, and it's good to see your FG ended where it should too. Please post your results when you sample them.
> 
> Andrew




Well I know I'm about a month late to join this discussion but I actually brewed two sparkling ales recently with yeast cultured from coopers sparkling ale.

Again I was under the same impression that there is no way there beers could go down so far without the use of adjuncts like sugar.

The first attempted started at 1.050 and contained about 15% sugar ( I know it was a tad excessive ) and it finished at 1.001 ( no that's not a typo ).

The second attempt contained no sugar and started at 1.046 and finished at 1.007 which is very close to the sparkling ale that I measured to culture the yeast from.

So after this experiment I am convinced that with the coopers yeast it is possible for them to produce the pale ale and the sparkling ale without using sugar.


----------



## BoilerBoy

I'm still finding it difficult to believe that CPA can finish with such a low FG without sugar, and if its an all malt brew why the hell isn't it being advertised as one? :huh: 
With the current generic beer landscape awash in sugar this would have to be a major marketing point!

The mouth feel also is pretty thin for an all malt beer IMHO, a beer at 4.2% alc which finishes at around 1.003 (as I'm led to believe?) would suggest an OG of around 1.042-45. I guess we just have to believe that they are a commercial brewery with access to better technology that enables them to achieve this.

An all malt brew at 1.042, with their yeast which attenuates well, and a low mash temp I still reckon I could only bope to achieve probably 1.007-8 FG.

Excellent info Braufrau

Now I'm curious and want to have to have a go at this,

Cheers
BB


----------



## chris.taylor.98

wally said:


> Chris, what was your mash schedule for the sparkling ale with no sugar?
> 
> 
> Wally



Here is the recipe and mash schedule. Would be interested to know it anyone else can reproduce similar results, or if my experiment should be considered an anomaly.

I also tried to reuse the yeast in a Russian Imperial Stout, but got no where near the attenuation of the other fore mentioned beers (only about 70%).


Batch size 18L

Grain

3.5 Kg BB Ale Malt
250gm Wheat Malt
250gm Wyermans Munich II

Hops

10gm Pride of Ringwood @ 60min
10gm East Kent Golding @ 60min
10gm Pride of Ringwood @ 20 min

Mash
Single step @ 61C


----------



## troydo

massive aeration of the wort would defiantly help.. 
according to Chris from whitelabs, most home brewer methods of aerating are largely insufficient to get the yeast to the same fg as a commercial brewery.


----------



## samhighley

I've recently done a CPA clone using cultured CPA bottle yeast, and I can't get the bugger to carbonate in the bottle.

I bulk primed to 2.6 volumes (165g dex in 23 litres) in a second fermenter, and left most of the yeast cake behind in the primary fermenter.

It's been in the bottle since 11 April and is still quite flat. At a guess, i'd say it was about half way to the intended carbonation level.

The bottles are sitting in a cupboard that maintains about 18C.

Are they likely to continue building pressure, or is it likely that the situation is terminal?

Sam


----------



## andrewg1978

Being new to this process,

does anybody know which coopers kits (excluding pale ale!) does the harvisted pale ale yeast suit? 

Cheers
Andrew


----------



## BoilerBoy

Sammy said:


> I've recently done a CPA clone using cultured CPA bottle yeast, and I can't get the bugger to carbonate in the bottle.
> 
> I bulk primed to 2.6 volumes (165g dex in 23 litres) in a second fermenter, and left most of the yeast cake behind in the primary fermenter.
> 
> It's been in the bottle since 11 April and is still quite flat. At a guess, i'd say it was about half way to the intended carbonation level.
> 
> The bottles are sitting in a cupboard that maintains about 18C.
> 
> Are they likely to continue building pressure, or is it likely that the situation is terminal?
> 
> Sam



G'day Sammy,
I don't think its the yeast, 165g of dextrose is around 7g per/L
I have found consistently that it requires more dextrose to achieve the same level of carbonation as sugar.
I typically for moderate carbonation use around 9g of dextrose per/L and 10g for lagers because like you I had so many flat beers and just kept adding more until I got it near right.

Cheers,
BB


----------



## BoilerBoy

I should add that the above gram amounts I have stated will be altered according to FG.
BB


----------



## geoffi

Any of the 'ale' styles will really shine with this yeast.



andrewg1978 said:


> Being new to this process,
> 
> does anybody know which coopers kits (excluding pale ale!) does the harvisted pale ale yeast suit?
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew


----------



## geoffi

I'm onto my second CPA clone brewed from the same double batch with the cultured yeast. It is a ripper. Once again, got down to about 1.005. Not a dead-ringer for CPA, but it is a beaut. In spite of the 18% sugar and low FG, it is still malty (JW Trad Ale at work there, I'd say).

Anybody thinking about trying this, don't walk, RUN to the bottle shop, get a few CPAs and get culturing.


----------



## white.grant

Geoffi said:


> Any of the 'ale' styles will really shine with this yeast.




I just bottled a Coopers Irish Stout kit that I fermented with a cultured CSA yeast. From the taste of the hydro tube its going to be great.

Grant


----------



## KHB

I have tried to do a yeast with CPA twice now and in my haste i didnt quite let the dregs get to room tempretaure. I used a 500ml starter and 6 stubbies would it have shocked the yeast to much?? As it hasnt worked both times. Yes i sanatised everything properly and i have managed to get one working before using a longneck.


Cheers Ben


----------



## geoffi

KHB said:


> I have tried to do a yeast with CPA twice now and in my haste i didnt quite let the dregs get to room tempretaure. I used a 500ml starter and 6 stubbies would it have shocked the yeast to much?? As it hasnt worked both times. Yes i sanatised everything properly and i have managed to get one working before using a longneck.
> 
> 
> Cheers Ben



The yeast folks always recommend that the temps of yeast starter and wort are not too wildly different, so maybe pitching cold dregs onto warm wort would be similarly detrimental to the yeasties.

So don't give up! If at thirst you don't succeed, try, try again. :chug:


----------



## KHB

Yeah will have to try it again and not be so inpatient!!


----------



## geoffi

The recent starter I got going with great success I used a six-pack. I made the starter wort in advance, and had a friend over for drinks. We knocked 'em back over an hour or so. Every time I cracked a stubbie I carefully poured off all but about 1/4 inch (sometimes metric doesn't cut it) and pushed the cap back on. By the time he went home the dregs were nicely warmed to room temp, so I pitched. Took two or three days to really fire up.


----------



## chris.taylor.98

KHB, couple of things that might help:

i) Try using a lot smaller volume for the first step. Even with the dregs from 6 bottles you don't know how much viable yeast is in there so you have to assume there is not very much. 

When I did my last CSA yeast culture I started with 2 bottles of dregs in only 60ml of wort.

Wait till you some some noticeable signs of yeast activity before you step up ( x10 to 600ml ) from there you should not have any problems, and can step up successively larger amounts ( can go to 2 liters from the 600 ml stage )

It took over 2 days for my first step last time, and that was with a stir plate as well.

If you try to do too big a step at once you run a lot greater risk of bacteria infection ( as there is a lot more wort with not much yeast ) and it will take longer for the fermentation cycle to start.


ii) The starter is all about making yeast, not beer. You want the ideal conditions for yeast propagation which is generally around 24-26C (even for lager yeasts) and 1.030-1.040 wort. You want it make as easy as possible for the yeast to propagate prior to pitching, and they will survive the temperature changes without too many problems if they are propagated properly.

I generally cold crash my starters (down to about 4C) a day or two before pitching so that I can pour off the resulting starter wort/beer (which is usually pretty revolting by this stage) and only pitch the yeast.

iii) try agitating your starter as much as possible. Just give it a bit of swirl around every time you go past it. It helps with the propagation process (hence the use of stir plates if you have access to them).


----------



## paul_h

I'm trying this tonight.
For someone without the ability to accurately measure 80g LDME, hot much would it be in standard tbspn or cup measurement?


----------



## pokolbinguy

paul_h said:


> I'm trying this tonight.
> For someone without the ability to accurately measure 80g LDME, hot much would it be in standard tbspn or cup measurement?



http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_grams_are_in_a_cup


----------



## white.grant

pokolbinguy said:


> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_grams_are_in_a_cup




That's a useful link. Thanks

grant


----------



## paul_h

pokolbinguy said:


> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_grams_are_in_a_cup


I know it's relative to whats in the cup, I understand mass and density. I just thought that someone who weighed dme may have measured it out, or could have an educated guess at what the volume 80g of dme was. Like maybe they used a spoon to scoop it out of the bag/jar onto the scales.
At a guess from your link it's closest to flour?


----------



## dingodidit

Having my first attempt at this and just seeking some advice on what the finished product should look like before it's pitched. I added about 80mls of wort to a long neck dregs then stepped it up to 600ml in a 2lt coke bottle then up to 1.5lt. It seems to sit pretty dormant until swirled where it fizz's up. There is a small amount of off white yeast in the bottom corners of the coke bottle but I thought there should be more - though I haven't really let it settle swirling it about ten times a day. Been kept at around 20 degrees for a week and smells fine. Have a CSA kit ready to go just need to know if this is worth using or not. :unsure: 

Been trawling the site for a few months and have been amazed at the quality of info on here, great work. :icon_cheers:


----------



## BoilerBoy

dingodidit said:


> Having my first attempt at this and just seeking some advice on what the finished product should look like before it's pitched. I added about 80mls of wort to a long neck dregs then stepped it up to 600ml in a 2lt coke bottle then up to 1.5lt. It seems to sit pretty dormant until swirled where it fizz's up. There is a small amount of off white yeast in the bottom corners of the coke bottle but I thought there should be more - though I haven't really let it settle swirling it about ten times a day. Been kept at around 20 degrees for a week and smells fine. Have a CSA kit ready to go just need to know if this is worth using or not. :unsure:
> 
> Been trawling the site for a few months and have been amazed at the quality of info on here, great work. :icon_cheers:



Was there evidence of activity before you pitched the 80ml into the 600ml?

BB


----------



## dingodidit

Yes, but only noticable when it was swirled around with a layer of froth on top, pretty hard to see through the long neck bottles.


----------



## DKS

paul_h said:


> I'm trying this tonight.
> For someone without the ability to accurately measure 80g LDME, hot much would it be in standard tbspn or cup measurement?




Hi paul_h 
Ive been cultivating yeast recently from Coopers Sparling Ale tallies starting to build up volume now but its taken nearly a week. I mix two heaped Tablespoons ( Proper tablespoon not a std table type spoon ) of LDME with 500ml water and measured with hydrometer came out close to 1.040. Just use the amount of water you want add the LDME and measure You can always boil it again after adjustment and if you make up to much so what at least next time youll be right onto it.
I think my efforts have been a little under par because of poor temp control but its getting there.This could prove to be of more importance than SG but the closer you can get to best practice specs the better. Best of luck. :icon_cheers: 

Daz


----------



## Mantis

Started a CSA from a longneck 3 days ago and it is bubbling away like a beuty in the 600ml first wort. got another 900ml of wort cooling in the fridge now to up it to 1.5lt. 

Thanks for all the info :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## Mantis

Ok, today is brew day and this morning the yeast had stopped. Guessing it had already used all the malt as it bubbled away like crazy all yesterday after building it up to 1.5lt, and would still be ok, I pitched it into a CSA kit brew. The temp of the brew was only 16 when I pitched it so the heat mat is on under the fermenter. The airlock has posotive pressure but no bubbling yet and very little foaming. 

Q. Does the coopers yeast take longer to get going than say US-05 ??

I wont panic till tommorow. If no action then, a packet of US-05 is going in.


----------



## BoilerBoy

Mantis said:


> Ok, today is brew day and this morning the yeast had stopped. Guessing it had already used all the malt as it bubbled away like crazy all yesterday after building it up to 1.5lt, and would still be ok, I pitched it into a CSA kit brew. The temp of the brew was only 16 when I pitched it so the heat mat is on under the fermenter. The airlock has posotive pressure but no bubbling yet and very little foaming.
> 
> Q. Does the coopers yeast take longer to get going than say US-05 ??
> 
> I wont panic till tommorow. If no action then, a packet of US-05 is going in.



Be patient, if the yeast had subsided a little it may take a little longer to take off, I don't use airlocks and visibly it usually can take anywhere from 12-24 hours before it really gets going.

Don't let the temp get too high! even 16C for this yeast is what I would normally aim at when using it, but I recommend you don't let it go over 18C.

Just wait and be patient.
Cheers,
BB


----------



## benny_bjc

Just out of interest, what is the advantages of using a cultured yeast from coopers bottles compared to the dry yeast sachets supplied with the kits?

thanks


----------



## Kleiny

the yeast from the bottles is the yeast used too produce coopers pale ale
the yeast under the lid may not be the same strain as from the brewery


----------



## Mantis

BoilerBoy said:


> Be patient, if the yeast had subsided a little it may take a little longer to take off, I don't use airlocks and visibly it usually can take anywhere from 12-24 hours before it really gets going.
> 
> Don't let the temp get too high! even 16C for this yeast is what I would normally aim at when using it, but I recommend you don't let it go over 18C.
> 
> Just wait and be patient.
> Cheers,
> BB




Ok, thanks. It has heated up to 18C so have turned off the heat mat and put a blanket around it. Will go pull another yorkshire bitter and calm down :chug:


----------



## paul_h

Mantis said:


> Ok, today is brew day and this morning the yeast had stopped. Guessing it had already used all the malt as it bubbled away like crazy all yesterday after building it up to 1.5lt, and would still be ok, I pitched it into a CSA kit brew. The temp of the brew was only 16 when I pitched it so the heat mat is on under the fermenter. The airlock has posotive pressure but no bubbling yet and very little foaming.
> 
> Q. Does the coopers yeast take longer to get going than say US-05 ??
> 
> I wont panic till tommorow. If no action then, a packet of US-05 is going in.


Coopers yeast is quick, mine started bubbling after a few hours, and has not stopped bubbling every few sec for almost a week.
Took about 2-3 days to get a krausen though, so it doesn't foam up quickly


----------



## Mantis

paul_h said:


> Coopers yeast is quick, mine started bubbling after a few hours, and has not stopped bubbling every few sec for almost a week.
> Took about 2-3 days to get a krausen though, so it doesn't foam up quickly




This morning, nearly 24 hrs later and its going beserk. Airlock popping every few secs and krausen closer to the airlock than any other brew I have done. 
So I was just panicking again h34r:


----------



## drsmurto

The yeast from coopers bottles is a versatile yeast, i found it is still happy at temps as low as 14C. By keeping the temps low you reduce ester formation and i found at 16C my CSA is a top drop. 

Just as an aside, i collected the yeast cake from said CSA clone and washed it and split it in 2 and left in the fridge. Used 1st lot within 2 weeks (in a dark ale) and it was all good, left the other for near on 3 months and direct pitched into a FES. Took 2 days to fire up. Went to rack it on the weekend and a quick taste gave me nothing but vegemite. Opened the lid to see what was going on and had my head thrown back by the smell. Solvent! Apple tree got a 20L feed. Lesson learnt. After too many successes with re-culturing yeast cakes i have got lazy and got bitten. 

Will be making starters and tasting/smelling them as i did when i started!


----------



## dingodidit

Mine kicked off nicely as well, seems to have gone really quickly to airlock starting to slow up after 3 days. I'll take an SG reading later today to see how much work has been done. Super stoked it worked first try B) - :unsure: may have been a bit high @18-20C but know for next time cheers Dr Smurto.


----------



## braufrau

IMO ... people are too warey of esters. Coopers makes nice fruity esters at ~20C and not overpowering.
Its an important part of the character of the beer ... IMO.


----------



## Murcluf

This question might of been asked 100 times before but, I haven't come across the answer yet so here goes. 
Is the yeast used by Coopers in their Pale, Sparkling, Stout etc etc the same strain or developed from the original strain or are they from completely different origins.


----------



## Adamt

Pale/Sparkling/Mild/Dark/Stout use the same strain.

Edit: and vintage.


----------



## Kai

braufrau said:


> IMO ... people are too warey of esters. Coopers makes nice fruity esters at ~20C and not overpowering.
> Its an important part of the character of the beer ... IMO.



Every now and then a homebrewed coopers will throw up massive banana even at moderate temps. It hasn't happened to me but my olfactories have witnessed it before. Even CSA is susceptible to this problem from time to time.


----------



## Murcluf

Adamt said:


> Pale/Sparkling/Mild/Dark/Stout use the same strain.
> 
> Edit: and vintage.


Cheers Adamt
Thanks for that just wasn't too sure if it was or not


----------



## BoilerBoy

Kai said:


> Every now and then a homebrewed coopers will throw up massive banana even at moderate temps. It hasn't happened to me but my olfactories have witnessed it before. Even CSA is susceptible to this problem from time to time.



It, happened to me once and you always remember it, made a pale ale clone that became almost tropical, could have sprinkled it with coconut and put an umbrella in the glass. :blink: 
Have brewed with coopers yeast at 16 many times since and never had this problem again.

BB


----------



## braufrau

BoilerBoy said:


> It, happened to me once and you always remember it, made a pale ale clone that became almost tropical, could have sprinkled it with coconut and put an umbrella in the glass. :blink:
> Have brewed with coopers yeast at 16 many times since and never had this problem again.
> 
> BB




But it can't just be temperature that causes it to break out the bananas 'cause all my brews with coopers have been at 20C ... well perhaps one day I'll have this unhappy event and then I'll post and you can have a chuckle. 
But until then ... esters = tasty ... IMO


----------



## BoilerBoy

braufrau said:


> But it can't just be temperature that causes it to break out the bananas 'cause all my brews with coopers have been at 20C ... well perhaps one day I'll have this unhappy event and then I'll post and you can have a chuckle.
> But until then ... esters = tasty ... IMO



G'day braufau,
You may very well be right, I'm only going by personal experience as are you, I guess its understood by most that higher temps tend to encourage fruity esters, which though a distinctive and desirable character of this yeast it seems to easily punish you if not careful.

If as you say it can't just be temperature that causes bananas I am in no position to dissagree because I feel like I'm in a position of ignorance on this.

At best this yeast is described as giving apple & pear esters :chug: 
At worst it becomes intensely banana :unsure: 

Cheers,
BB


----------



## BoilerBoy

wally said:


> I'm wondering if the bananas occur at different times because the yeast is under stress, ie if under pitched.
> 
> Seems to work that way with WY3068.
> 
> 
> 
> Wally



A fair point well considering, particularly when we are trying to reculture yeast that is probably not at its freshest and best.

Cheers,
BB


----------



## Mantis

Day two of the CSA with this yeast and the smell from the airlock is very strong banana. It has been sitting on 18-20C.
Hoping it will settle down as I dont want a banana milkshake here :blink: :lol:


----------



## braufrau

Oh dear!

I don't know if it makes a difference, but I always leave my brews for 2 weeks in the fermenter. 
But ... I've never smelled banana coming out the airlock either. 

I hope its OK.


----------



## Mantis

braufrau said:


> Oh dear!
> 
> I don't know if it makes a difference, but I always leave my brews for 2 weeks in the fermenter.
> But ... I've never smelled banana coming out the airlock either.
> 
> I hope its OK.



It should be ok. I just did an SG and was 1032 down from 1058 and although the aroma is very banana ish the taste is ok. :beer:


----------



## paul_h

Kai said:


> Every now and then a homebrewed coopers will throw up massive banana even at moderate temps. It hasn't happened to me but my olfactories have witnessed it before. Even CSA is susceptible to this problem from time to time.


I swear I've had that from brewery sparking ale many a time back in the old days, I liked it 
I generally prefer darker malty beers, my favourite lighter beers have all been fruity at least once or twice. Be it mid ales, coopers, weistephaner lagers.
If only I could develop that fault, all mine are just plain "homebrew" taste at best, just bad or off tastemore commonly. Still don't know why, I've tried everything recommended, used BE instead of sugar, used DME instead of BE, used specialty yeast instead of kit yeast, used bleach instead of sodium metabisulphate, used starsan no rince instead of bleach. The list goes on, learnt from my mistakes, took advice, spent more money, but the same crap comes out. At this stage I'd settle for VB to come out of my fermenters, so I care little about slightly off flavours, I like them anyway
I'm not a hops fan in general, I either like roasted malt in darker beers, or yeasty fruitiness inlighter beers.

I don't mind hops, I'll drink a LC PA or a JS IPA, but I prefer session beers in general as hops does me in after two of them.


----------



## BoilerBoy

paul_h said:


> I swear I've had that from brewery sparking ale many a time back in the old days, I liked it
> I generally prefer darker malty beers, my favourite lighter beers have all been fruity at least once or twice. Be it mid ales, coopers, weistephaner lagers.
> If only I could develop that fault, all mine are just plain "homebrew" taste at best, just bad or off tastemore commonly. Still don't know why, I've tried everything recommended, used BE instead of sugar, used DME instead of BE, used specialty yeast instead of kit yeast, used bleach instead of sodium metabisulphate, used starsan no rince instead of bleach. The list goes on, learnt from my mistakes, took advice, spent more money, but the same crap comes out. At this stage I'd settle for VB to come out of my fermenters, so I care little about slightly off flavours, I like them anyway
> I'm not a hops fan in general, I either like roasted malt in darker beers, or yeasty fruitiness inlighter beers.
> 
> I don't mind hops, I'll drink a LC PA or a JS IPA, but I prefer session beers in general as hops does me in after two of them.



Where are you buying your tins of extract from?
If its that "Home brew twang" that people often complain about your tasting it can often be the result of using older extract.
Many extract and partial mash brewers have found that "fresh is definitely best" and though often its cheaper to buy tins from the supermarket and a use by date maybe stamped its still no indication of how long its been sitting there.

BB


----------



## drsmurto

Was thinking about your experiences with the Coopers yeast at 20C Braufrau and was wondering just how big a starter you are making. If you are pitching plenty of healthy yeast you may in fact be over pitching which from my reading is likely to reduce ester formation.


----------



## paul_h

BoilerBoy said:


> Where are you buying your tins of extract from?
> If its that "Home brew twang" that people often complain about your tasting it can often be the result of using older extract.
> Many extract and partial mash brewers have found that "fresh is definitely best" and though often its cheaper to buy tins from the supermarket and a use by date maybe stamped its still no indication of how long its been sitting there.
> 
> BB


Nah, it's other problems.
Trying different steps each time, but screwing up somewhere.
I've improved the taste of the stuff out of the fermenter after heaps of infections/off flavours. I've done 4 batches so far, one porter thrown out, one real ale about to be thrown out, one aust. ale still tasting sweet/off, one stout I'm hoping will make it.
Last brew (stout) I think let me down with the bottling. I did everything right and it tasted OK, FG 1012. I filled one PET bottle at the very end with the dregs.
All glass bottles were soaked in a watered down bleach for a day, then rinsed with boiling water prior to bottling (except the PET bottle of course).
One week later, I opened the PET bottle and it seemed like a nice green beer and the future looked good
But two weeks later, all the glass bottles taste like crap. Maybe they were too warm from the boiling water rinse, maybe they had too much left over bleach?
I dunno, they are carbonated, so I didn't kill the yeast off. But they tasted worse than straight out of the fermenter, or the earlier PET bottle that was full of the dregs.

This coopers pale I'm doing now I just sampled, tastes like pale ale, but more bitter and at the same time more sweet.
Used coopers recultured yeast, POR hops, 1.5kg DME.
It's two weeks old and I'll bottle later on this week, I'll try something else with the bottles, like a rinse in starsan. 
Just bottled brew#5 today, another stout. Again from the fermentor, it tastes like a green stout like the other stout did and looks promising. I did the starsan rince instead of boiling water for these bottles. I'll guess I'll see whether it turns to crap like the other stout did after bottling

I'mnot giving up, just haven't had anything to show for my efforts yet even though I'm trying nearly everything.
These last three brews (coopers pale ale - fermenting, coopers stout- just bottled, muntons bitter- just put in fermenter)are going to be my last attempts though as I've sunk $300+ into it so far. I only starting doing HB to save some money, I have a real interest in the process and will build up equipment and AG if I get some results, but if it's not to be for me, it's not to be.

I've been patient and tried to learn as much as I cand from all sources of books and web sites, but HB is something I'm no good at it seem, so I'm preying to the beer gods.


----------



## dingodidit

Added my starter to 21Lt last Tuesday, OG-1060 SG last few nights has been 1022 :unsure: . Seemed to be chugging away nicely all week with a good krausen @ 20C. Just want to know if I should add another starter or some packet yeast to get the gravity down. I've done what others have suggested by rolling the fermenter around to stir it up a bit though I'm not too keen on stirring as has been suggested in other threads for fear of infection.

Ingredients: CSA Kit, 1.5kg Liquid Malt, 600g Dried Malt and 400g Dextrose.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated :icon_cheers: .

PS: Hang in there Paul they'll improve with age - that's what I tell myself anyway. Got my first fermenter for my birthday in March and just put down another CSA with bottle yeast last night bringing my total brews to 18. I'm thinking I have Compulsive Brewing Dissorder h34r: .


----------



## BoilerBoy

dingodidit said:


> Added my starter to 21Lt last Tuesday, OG-1060 SG last few nights has been 1022 :unsure: . Seemed to be chugging away nicely all week with a good krausen @ 20C. Just want to know if I should add another starter or some packet yeast to get the gravity down. I've done what others have suggested by rolling the fermenter around to stir it up a bit though I'm not too keen on stirring as has been suggested in other threads for fear of infection.
> 
> Ingredients: CSA Kit, 1.5kg Liquid Malt, 600g Dried Malt and 400g Dextrose.
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated :icon_cheers: .
> 
> PS: Hang in there Paul they'll improve with age - that's what I tell myself anyway. Got my first fermenter for my birthday in March and just put down another CSA with bottle yeast last night bringing my total brews to 18. I'm thinking I have Compulsive Brewing Dissorder h34r: .



I don't know much about the CSA kit, but an OG of 1.060 at just over a week isn't that long.
The ingredients you have listed, is that the kit as you buy it or have you added to it?
Is there still evidence of some activity on top of the beer? 
Coopers yeast tends to drop out fairly well when fermentation is complete.

Cheers,
BB


----------



## braufrau

paul_h said:


> One week later, I opened the PET bottle and it seemed like a nice green beer and the future looked good
> But two weeks later, all the glass bottles taste like crap. Maybe they were too warm from the boiling water rinse, maybe they had too much left over bleach?


bleach in beer combines with phenols to make chlorphenols which taste like bandaids.
Does it taste like that?
Bad extract tastes like biro ink.
What does it taste like after 8 weeks?
Do you know anyone with a more experience palate who can help you identify the taste perhaps? Like a good HBS owner.




> I've been patient and tried to learn as much as I cand from all sources of books and web sites, but HB is something I'm no good at it seem, so I'm preying to the beer gods.


No no! You have the right attitude. The ones who are no good at HB happily make brew after brew that tastes like bandaids and think its terrific!


----------



## dingodidit

BoilerBoy said:


> I don't know much about the CSA kit, but an OG of 1.060 at just over a week isn't that long.
> The ingredients you have listed, is that the kit as you buy it or have you added to it?
> Is there still evidence of some activity on top of the beer?
> Coopers yeast tends to drop out fairly well when fermentation is complete.
> 
> Cheers,
> BB



Ingredients as listed on the kit with 100g extra Dextrose and 100g extra Dried Malt. The airlocked stopped bubbling a couple of days ago and I can't see the brew through the lid from the condensation. I imagine it's still chugging away all be it very slowly, I'll have a spy through the airlock hole this arvo. When you say drop out do you mean settle on the bottom?


----------



## braufrau

BoilerBoy said:


> I don't know much about the CSA kit, but an OG of 1.060 at just over a week isn't that long.



All my ales (except tripels) I ferment for 2 weeks and then take a SG reading.
All this tinkering with SG readings seems like a waste of lovely beer to me! 
I know the idea comes from the coopers instructions, but you don't have to pounce on the beer
as soon as the SG levels out.
In fact, John Palmer says
" Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermenter for a total of 2-3 weeks versus one when using single stage fermentation (i.e. not using a second fermenter) will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the finished beer. The extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. "
linky


----------



## BoilerBoy

dingodidit said:


> Ingredients as listed on the kit with 100g extra Dextrose and 100g extra Dried Malt. The airlocked stopped bubbling a couple of days ago and I can't see the brew through the lid from the condensation. I imagine it's still chugging away all be it very slowly, I'll have a spy through the airlock hole this arvo. When you say drop out do you mean settle on the bottom?



Yep, coopers yeast tends to drop out of suspension really well and settle when its done.

Don't be afraid to remove the fermenter lid to view the beer if you can't see it it very well through the airlock hole.

Also how did you make your starter? just wondering how much yeast was pitched which becomes important in reaching FG, again not knowing the kit and how much sugar/dextrose is in it, that will your FG.

BB


----------



## BoilerBoy

braufrau said:


> All my ales (except tripels) I ferment for 2 weeks and then take a SG reading.
> All this tinkering with SG readings seems like a waste of lovely beer to me!
> I know the idea comes from the coopers instructions, but you don't have to pounce on the beer
> as soon as the SG levels out.
> In fact, John Palmer says
> " Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermenter for a total of 2-3 weeks versus one when using single stage fermentation (i.e. not using a second fermenter) will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the finished beer. The extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. "
> linky



Absolutely agree with this, 2 weeks is a general rule before I take a reading. 
There are many variables that can make for a longer or shorter primary, Getting familiar with the different stages of fermentation helps to understand when to take SG readings, but waiting and being patient is better than endless daily SG readings which in the end only wastes the beer and doesn't make it finish any faster.

Cheers,
BB


----------



## drsmurto

Its fun tasting the beer as it goes from sugary wort to beer..... :icon_drunk: 

But i do agree, i think i am far to quick to rack the beer once signs of fermentation cease rather than letting the yeast clean up all their side products and then go to sleep...... 

Patience young skywalker, patience...


----------



## dingodidit

BoilerBoy said:


> Yep, coopers yeast tends to drop out of suspension really well and settle when its done.
> 
> Don't be afraid to remove the fermenter lid to view the beer if you can't see it it very well through the airlock hole.
> 
> Also how did you make your starter? just wondering how much yeast was pitched which becomes important in reaching FG, again not knowing the kit and how much sugar/dextrose is in it, that will your FG.
> 
> BB



I added about 80mls of wort to a long neck dregs then stepped it up to 600ml in a 2lt coke bottle then up to 1.5lt. Kicked off by the next morning, the latest one I used the dregs of three tallies and it seemed to be a lot more active in the bottle.

I leave my brews for at least 2 weeks after advice from this site and don't usualy worry about taking readings until then. Just extra curious with this one as it is my first attempt at a starter. I have another starter in a tallie stepped up to 600mls maybe I should add that if the Gravity hasn't dropped by the weekend :huh:


----------



## Hefty

Hi all,
I've just collected 2 lots of 2 stubbies of coopers yeast over the past two nights.
Will I necessarily see visible action as the yeast starts up? I'm asking because the first one, after 24 hours, looked like it had produced more yeast in the bottom but it is hard to tell because it is a soft drink bottle with the 5 little "knob"-like things on the bottom. There's no krausen (not even a tiny bit) and no noticeable build up of gases under the screwed-on lid (I cracked it open at different stages to listen for it escaping) but a tiny sample *didn't* taste or smell foul, just sweet and esthery.
The second one was only started last night so I'll have to check it when I get home. I shook the second one more, maybe the first one wasn't aerated enough?

Jono.


----------



## braufrau

Hefty said:


> Hi all,
> I've just collected 2 lots of 2 stubbies of coopers yeast over the past two nights.
> Will I necessarily see visible action as the yeast starts up? I'm asking because the first one, after 24 hours, looked like it had produced more yeast in the bottom but it is hard to tell because it is a soft drink bottle with the 5 little "knob"-like things on the bottom. There's no krausen (not even a tiny bit) and no noticeable build up of gases under the screwed-on lid (I cracked it open at different stages to listen for it escaping) but a tiny sample *didn't* taste or smell foul, just sweet and esthery.
> The second one was only started last night so I'll have to check it when I get home. I shook the second one more, maybe the first one wasn't aerated enough?
> 
> Jono.



When i've done it in the past in a soft drink bottle (that was before I had a stir plate) the bottle got really hard.
I shook the bottle every time I walked past it.
I don't usually see a krausen, but I do see yeast building up at the bottom.


----------



## Hefty

Cheers Braufrau.
It turns out I spoke too soon. I got home this afternoon and it had some small patcehs of bubbles at the top and clearly more yeast deposited at the bottom.
Maybe the lack of oxygen made for a longer lag time.

My next question:
When should I step up? (It's 500mL and I'm going to step up to 1L) Right now when it has just started becoming active or should I give it a day or so?

Jono.


----------



## BoilerBoy

Hefty said:


> Cheers Braufrau.
> It turns out I spoke too soon. I got home this afternoon and it had some small patcehs of bubbles at the top and clearly more yeast deposited at the bottom.
> Maybe the lack of oxygen made for a longer lag time.
> 
> My next question:
> When should I step up? (It's 500mL and I'm going to step up to 1L) Right now when it has just started becoming active or should I give it a day or so?
> 
> Jono.



500ml is a fair bit to start with, I'd be leaving it another day until you see a bit more activity then step up to 1L.

Cheers,
BB


----------



## stevenk

is just made a starter up for the CPA used 300ml water 2 heaped teaspoons LDME, one dregs of CPA longie.

after one day in 600 ml water bottle, boiled another 600 ml water with 4 heaped tea spoons LDME transfered starter into 2 litre bottle with my other 600ml.

what you guys recon ?? i think i got the recipe off this thread some where??

or do i need more yeats then just dregs of one longneck ??


----------



## paul_h

braufrau said:


> bleach in beer combines with phenols to make chlorphenols which taste like bandaids.
> Does it taste like that?
> Bad extract tastes like biro ink.
> What does it taste like after 8 weeks?
> Do you know anyone with a more experience palate who can help you identify the taste perhaps? Like a good HBS owner.
> 
> 
> 
> No no! You have the right attitude. The ones who are no good at HB happily make brew after brew that tastes like bandaids and think its terrific!


Well, I'm not giving up now. This cooper pale ale came out awesome. Very nice, quite bitter and hoppy aroma and taste due to the POR I added. Best beer I've everhad out of a plastic bucket 
I don't know how bandaids taste, as I've never eaten one, descriptions of tastes and beer faults just confuse me 
But this is the first bottling I've done with starsan instead of bleach and it's the best tasting one.
The fermenter and equipment was still sanatised in bleach though, along with everything in the stout brew I did at the same time which also came out good, so maybe it's something else I did wrong in all my previous 4 brews.
Anyway, I'd be happy if all the brews I do come out like this if I just stick to brewing coopers extract tins of pale ale and stout.
But I've just finished making the pipework and tap on a 50L esky to make a mash tun, so it's AG brewing from now on anyway (when I have the time).



stevenk said:


> is just made a starter up for the CPA used 300ml water 2 heaped teaspoons LDME, one dregs of CPA longie.
> 
> after one day in 600 ml water bottle, boiled another 600 ml water with 4 heaped tea spoons LDME transfered starter into 2 litre bottle with my other 600ml.
> 
> what you guys recon ?? i think i got the recipe off this thread some where??
> 
> or do i need more yeats then just dregs of one longneck ??



I just used 500ml water boiled in a saucepan with 2tbspn DME, and the dregs out of two stubbies. I shook it 3-4 times a day for 5 days. When pitched it didn't do anything for over a day, then bubbled constantly for two weeks in the fermenter. It was still bubling in the airlock when I bottled it, but FG was 1012, and it's come out a ripper.


----------



## stevenk

that gives me faith cheers man


----------



## braufrau

paul_h said:


> Well, I'm not giving up now. This cooper pale ale came out awesome. Very nice, quite bitter and hoppy aroma and taste due to the POR I added. Best beer I've ever had out of a plastic bucket




:beer: :beer:


----------



## mikelinz

Brewed an Aust Pale Ale aka droopers pale ale fermented at 22c (fridge controller). Judged at a club meeting and got the comment low fruit aroma. Seems that ppl keep commenting on the banana, but from my reading this yeast has a "fruity character" so should have some banana.


----------



## mikelinz

. It was still bubling in the airlock when I bottled it, but FG was 1012, and it's come out a ripper.
[/quote]

Hope you don't end up with bottle bombs, this yeast fermented out to 1.005 for me and this seems to be normal for the coopers yeast. Fermentation needs to be finished before bottling, so stable at the same SG for 2-3 days, certainly if it is still bubbling its not done.

rgds mike


----------



## BoilerBoy

mikelinz said:


> Brewed an Aust Pale Ale aka droopers pale ale fermented at 22c (fridge controller). Judged at a club meeting and got the comment low fruit aroma. Seems that ppl keep commenting on the banana, but from my reading this yeast has a "fruity character" so should have some banana.



Was it recultured Coopers yeast from a bottle or kit yeast?

Cheers,
BB


----------



## mikelinz

BoilerBoy said:


> Was it recultured Coopers yeast from a bottle or kit yeast?
> 
> Cheers,
> BB



Recultured, CSA from memory


----------



## paul_h

mikelinz said:


> . It was still bubling in the airlock when I bottled it, but FG was 1012, and it's come out a ripper.
> 
> 
> Hope you don't end up with bottle bombs, this yeast fermented out to 1.005 for me and this seems to be normal for the coopers yeast. Fermentation needs to be finished before bottling, so stable at the same SG for 2-3 days, certainly if it is still bubbling its not done.
> 
> rgds mike


I used 1.5kg of malt, no sugar, so FG is going to be high for me. It was sill bubbling every so often, but it was in the fermenter for two whole weeks, so it should of been done. The one I opened today certainly wasn't over carbonated.


----------



## stevenk

:beer: :beer: i have bottled a beer that has been bubling every 4-5 mins and it is fine too mate.. so...


----------



## Sprungmonkey

Just wonding if anyone has made a slant straight from a bottle of CPA or CSA? Also are they the same yeasts?


----------



## Willburville

Greetings all,

First post (woohoo), anyway's back on topic.

It's been 36hrs and still no bubbly from the airlock, I followed the PDF doco accordingly so I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts?

There is some definate frothing on top of the wort from what i can see through the lid.

Used a CPA kit with BE2, i'm wondering if I left the yeast too long (3days) before pitching.

Will


----------



## braufrau

Willburville said:


> Greetings all,
> 
> First post (woohoo), anyway's back on topic.
> 
> It's been 36hrs and still no bubbly from the airlock, I followed the PDF doco accordingly so I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts?
> 
> There is some definate frothing on top of the wort from what i can see through the lid.
> 
> Used a CPA kit with BE2, i'm wondering if I left the yeast too long (3days) before pitching.
> 
> Will




Your airlock may not be sealed at the grommet, or the lid of your fermenter may not be sealed.
If there's frothing and scum forming around the top of the wort, then its working.


----------



## Willburville

braufrau said:


> Your airlock may not be sealed at the grommet, or the lid of your fermenter may not be sealed.
> If there's frothing and scum forming around the top of the wort, then its working.




Turns out this was the case, stupid fermenter lid!
Have to grease the bastard up next time....


----------



## dingodidit

Very sad news, sampled my first 2 CSA brews using the recultured yeasts last night and they are both funky to say the least. Both made up as per the kit with a little extra dex & LDM, fermented for 3 weeks, FG 1010. 2 weeks in the bottle and they have no carbonation and a syrupy, super sweet taste :unsure: . Not sure if it's infection or what but I'm going to store a few in above 20 degrees for a week and see if they carb up at all otherwise I have my first failure x2. :angry: Totaly shattered after the initial stoke of the yeasties working away 5 weeks ago.

I have another lot of recultured yeast ready to go into a CSA tomorrow now I'm not so sure I shoul use it


----------



## BoilerBoy

dingodidit said:


> Very sad news, sampled my first 2 CSA brews using the recultured yeasts last night and they are both funky to say the least. Both made up as per the kit with a little extra dex & LDM, fermented for 3 weeks, FG 1010. 2 weeks in the bottle and they have no carbonation and a syrupy, super sweet taste :unsure: . Not sure if it's infection or what but I'm going to store a few in above 20 degrees for a week and see if they carb up at all otherwise I have my first failure x2. :angry: Totaly shattered after the initial stoke of the yeasties working away 5 weeks ago.
> 
> I have another lot of recultured yeast ready to go into a CSA tomorrow now I'm not so sure I shoul use it



What temp did you brew them at? and when you say funky are you meaning fruity banana type esters?

Cheers,
BB


----------



## dingodidit

BoilerBoy said:


> What temp did you brew them at? and when you say funky are you meaning fruity banana type esters?
> 
> Cheers,
> BB



Temp got up to 22 early in the fermentation but dropped down to 18 after initial activity - and yeh probably could be described as fruity/banana like. I'll have another crack at one tonight and try to give a little more acurate description. :icon_cheers:


----------



## BoilerBoy

dingodidit said:


> Temp got up to 22 early in the fermentation but dropped down to 18 after initial activity - and yeh probably could be described as fruity/banana like. I'll have another crack at one tonight and try to give a little more acurate description. :icon_cheers:



Don't lose faith its a great yeast, but IMHO its vitally important that you keep the ferment temp down! I've never had the common banana problem keeping it at 16C, or at the most don't let it over 18C. 
If you are not able to do that I would look at choosing another yeast.

Cheers,
BB


----------



## braufrau

Lack of carbonation will make them taste sweet, like flat lemonade.
I would give them at least 8 weeks in the bottle, including 2 weeks at 20C before drinking.


----------



## dingodidit

braufrau said:


> Lack of carbonation will make them taste sweet, like flat lemonade.
> I would give them at least 8 weeks in the bottle, including 2 weeks at 20C before drinking.



Thanks guys  just did a big long response Re - I PROBABLY PANICED - but I think I'm still logged on at work and it hasn't come through. 

EDIT:  Nah.............. just stuffed up this one came through. Anyway thanks for the advice re temp etc, tasted tonight and I'm quitely confident again. I'll do another tomorrow  You guys are the best B)


----------



## braufrau

I am procrastinating right now when I should be bottling.

I just tasted my latest adelaide sparkling out of the fermenter and I am very excited.

Smells like bread dough, has a nice appley palate and just a hint of lolly banana at the end.
And of course it tastes green, but as a tasty mouthful its fantastic!

For the record ... I pitched 1.5l of stir plated (is that a verb?) starter (1.040) and fermented at 2 weeks at 20C.


----------



## floydmeddler

Plastic Man said:


> Great article.
> 
> We have a small informal brew club at work and one of the guys did similar instructions. Almost the same - though which is good. I've attached it if anyones interested. We've found the time suggestions are probably a bit understated though and a couple of days is better than the 24 hours used.
> 
> View attachment 14435



I learnt a lot from reading the attachment. Very thorough... Cheers.


----------



## Rudy

Hi guys,

What would you consider to be an average ADF for this yeast? I made a basic ale, mashed at 65c, mostly pale malt, no crystal and nearly 10% sugar. 1.048 to 1.012 in a week, so 75% ADF. Fermented like mad for 3 days then stopped. What sort of attenuation would you expect?


----------



## db73

I have added the dregs of two CPA stubbies to 300mls of wort to a sanitized 1.5l pet bottle, two days ago. There is no sign of krausen whatsoever or gas escaping when I crack the lid. However there is sediment forming in the bottom of the bottle which appears to be slowly getting larger. This starter has been stired not shaken (only a quick shake at the start). I have two questions. The first is the sediment in the bottom the yeast? It does not have a light sort of colour more a shade closer to the wort itself. The second should I step up this wort today or should I wait?

Thanks

Dave


----------



## BoilerBoy

db73 said:


> I have added the dregs of two CPA stubbies to 300mls of wort to a sanitized 1.5l pet bottle, two days ago. There is no sign of krausen whatsoever or gas escaping when I crack the lid. However there is sediment forming in the bottom of the bottle which appears to be slowly getting larger. This starter has been stired not shaken (only a quick shake at the start). I have two questions. The first is the sediment in the bottom the yeast? It does not have a light sort of colour more a shade closer to the wort itself. The second should I step up this wort today or should I wait?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dave



I'd give it another day, 300 ml is probably a little on the high side for the dregs of 2 stubbies so it may take just a bit longer.

I usually add 100ml of well shaken starter wort to 1 or 2 stubbie dregs and activity is evident in 1-2 days then I step up.

Just give it a bit longer and give it a regular twirl.

Cheers,
BB


----------



## db73

thanks BB.

I'll have another look at doing it tomorrow

Dave


----------



## lespaul

im a little confused about the oxygen/aerating of the starter. doesnt shaking it once fermentation has started produce off flavours? then your transferring it into your wort

also what is the part you mostly want to pitch...the sediment or the liquid?

and so for both questions...is there a way you can shake the starter to get it aerated and help the yeast, but then only pitch the concentrated yeast and not any of the bad flavours?

appologise if this is a stupid question 

Edit: im planning on doing a starter with the white rabbit dark ale


----------



## BoilerBoy

lespaul said:


> im a little confused about the oxygen/aerating of the starter. doesnt shaking it once fermentation has started produce off flavours? then your transferring it into your wort
> 
> also what is the part you mostly want to pitch...the sediment or the liquid?
> 
> and so for both questions...is there a way you can shake the starter to get it aerated and help the yeast, but then only pitch the concentrated yeast and not any of the bad flavours?
> 
> appologise if this is a stupid question
> 
> Edit: im planning on doing a starter with the white rabbit dark ale



Best thing to do I find is build your starter up then put it in the fridge at least the night before brew day.
Then next day pour off the spent starter wort on the top leaving the compact yeast at the bottom allow to warm up while brewing and then add 1L of your new wort when its ready and allow yeast to fire up usually 3-6 hours then pitch.

That gives you no off flavours from the starter wort and an active starter you know is ready to go eliminating any pitch and hoping.

Cheers,
BB


----------



## lespaul

champion :icon_cheers:


----------



## wynnum1

when you finish making beer do you bottle some with extra yeast for later date as new starters or start from new and how long does yeast remain viable in the bottled beer


----------



## Digger11

Might be an obvious question (and I am sure it has been answered before but I can't find it) but is their a dry (or wet) yeast equivalent that I can buy that is equivalent to using Coopers recultured ?


----------



## lespaul

Digger11 said:


> Might be an obvious question (and I am sure it has been answered before but I can't find it) but is their a dry (or wet) yeast equivalent that I can buy that is equivalent to using Coopers recultured ?




i think there is something above that says its pretty unique and its worth just doing a starter using the yeast from the bottle if you want the same flavour.


----------



## hazard

I've just made a starter from the dregs of a six pack of pale ale - and this may be best thing about this yeast, because drinking a six pack is more fun even then smacking a smack pack. I'm planning to make a CSA clone based on Tony Wheeler's recipe this weekend, but am planning on harvesting more yeast from the fermenter. Now my question is - in Tony's article in BYO mag he described the coopers yeast as a Burton-type yeast. On this basis I am thinking of using it later on to make an IPA (cos I'm too stingy to but another liquid yeast). Would coopers yeast be good for this style?


----------



## BoilerBoy

hazard said:


> I've just made a starter from the dregs of a six pack of pale ale - and this may be best thing about this yeast, because drinking a six pack is more fun even then smacking a smack pack. I'm planning to make a CSA clone based on Tony Wheeler's recipe this weekend, but am planning on harvesting more yeast from the fermenter. Now my question is - in Tony's article in BYO mag he described the coopers yeast as a Burton-type yeast. On this basis I am thinking of using it later on to make an IPA (cos I'm too stingy to but another liquid yeast). Would coopers yeast be good for this style?



I was going to reply earlier to this but decided to think about it further.

I have no issue whatsoever with this yeast working in an IPA, its got a good ester profile and attenuates well, its just reusing the yeast again that unerves me.

My gut feeling and its just a hunch, a guess etc... is that you really want this yeast at its freshest, its already had a life in the bottle and your using it again for your CSA, the esters though great and desirable can get "very" estery under a minimum of stress and wreck a beer.

Coopers yeast is readily available and one stubby is all I ever use for reculturing so I never bother reusing it, its easy enough to start again.

Thats just my personal un scientific guess and you may go ahead with it and it most probably will turn out perfectly fine.

Good luck with it.

cheers,
BB


----------



## hazard

BoilerBoy said:


> I was going to reply earlier to this but decided to think about it further.
> 
> I have no issue whatsoever with this yeast working in an IPA, its got a good ester profile and attenuates well, its just reusing the yeast again that unerves me.
> 
> My gut feeling and its just a hunch, a guess etc... is that you really want this yeast at its freshest, its already had a life in the bottle and your using it again for your CSA, the esters though great and desirable can get "very" estery under a minimum of stress and wreck a beer.
> 
> Coopers yeast is readily available and one stubby is all I ever use for reculturing so I never bother reusing it, its easy enough to start again.
> 
> Thats just my personal un scientific guess and you may go ahead with it and it most probably will turn out perfectly fine.
> 
> Good luck with it.
> 
> cheers,
> BB



OK Thanks BB. You've actually discussed 2 issues:
1. Is coppers yeast good for IPA - I think you said yes.
2. Should re-cultured coopers yeast be recycled - you have concerns with this one. I've though about this, but I always reach the same conclusion which is different to yours (but I could be wrong, and happy to hear other views)) - all yeast has been harvested from somewhere, and all had the same anscestor about 1 billion years ago. So if I put some yeast in a fermenter and they multiply, then the new ones are "fresh", or as fresh as anything else going around? I understand that there can be an issue with mutations if you mkeep using yeast, but it shouldn't get "tired". I dunno, food for thought.

I am harvesting yeast on a regular basis - haven't bought any for a while and I've got slurry from 1084, 1469, 1187, 1056, and 3944 in the fridge. So soon will add coopers!! Following a recommendation from this or another forum (can't remember exactly) I always harvest from the secondary. I assume that this is because any break material, hops trub, dead yeast etc is left in the primary, and I only harvest good healty yeast that falls out of suspension during a week in the frifdge. I wonder if I keep this up, i will eliminate more flocculent yeast and end up with a different strain that doesn't flocc out as much? 

hazard


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## hazard

Well I made my Coopers CSA Clone on Friday night after work (Tony Wheeler recipe scaled to 25L), and pitched just after midnight. Wort was at 18 deg after chilling, and I set the heat pad to 20 deg and left it.

There were visible signs of krausen by 8am Sat, and by Sat night the fermentor was full. By Sunday morning there is foam pouring out of the fermentor. This yeast really goes! So if I want to re-use this yeast, is it possible to top crop? Or should I harvest from secondary as I usually do? It all looks foamy, I've never tried top-cropping but i understand that top cropping yeast is more lumpy?


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## ekul

Does this yeast ever stall?

I've used it a couple of times and every time i've used it it has smashed through the wort in 2-3 days. Currently i have 2 fermenters of the cpa clone but both have stopped at 1018. They both got to this point at day 3. I'm worried that my thermometer may be off causing me to mash too high as this yeast is so hungry i couldn't imagine it stalling, especially twice. (Actually one of them is the white labs coopers strain).

Its early days yet, they've only been in the fermenter for a week but normally it would be bottled by now. If nothing has happened by tmo i'll start my 'yeast rousing regime'. I never thought this yeast would stall.

Any thoughts?


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## ekul

Actually, in one of the fermenters the hydrometer was stuck to the side, its actually at 1.008. The other one is still rather high, it has a lot of yeast stuck to the hydrometer, do you think this could affect bouyancy and therefore gravity reading?


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## asis

Did they end up finishing ekul?

I've got a starter going at the moment that was stepped up to 1 litre on monday and is still actively fermenting. I want to split this and add half to 2 2 litre flasks. If I pour someof the spent beer off my original starter with out letting it finish or chilling will I lose too much yeast? I need to split it as I have about 42 or so litres to ferment in seperate fermenters.

Thanks

Adam


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## joshs41

Anyone been able to re-propogate the yeast ot of a German Heffe bottle eg Franziskanner ??
I think they bottle condition with a diff yeast to the primary yeast,
I d love to get a good heffe yeast for a wheat brew, u know the real Munic jazz...


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## thekelsobrewer

for Josh Smith,
have you tried culturing a yeast from the Belgium Wit Hoegaarden?, other than that you could spend $14-$15 on obtaining a White Labs or Wyeast yeast appliccable to the type of Wheat beer you wish to brew.


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## bullsneck

Does Hoegaarden use the same yeast for bottling and fermenting?


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## jyo

This yeast is a bloody hungry beast. From 1043 down to 1012 in 2 days at 19'. First time culturing this one up and the samples are very promising.
Cheers for the wiki, blokes. :icon_cheers:


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## BeerSwiller

From my experience, I have only ever collected the dregs from one stubbies and the yeast have always fired up, depending on the age of the bottle will determine how long it will take.
I have cultured a stubbie up in August that was best after January and took a few days to start but still cultured ok.


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## Engibeer

Thanks for all the posts and advice gents.

Currently I have a batch of this brewed as per the AG recipe sitting in a cube.

I attempted to reculture a yeast starter using a longneck dated "best after" 24/1/15

Using a stir plate, with 1000mL 1.050 wort straight up, I attempted to re-start the yeast for about 36hrs 

Measured the OG after 36hrs and no activity. Initially I thought there was some activity due to the bubbling.

I just purchased a 375mL dated best after 12/3/15, so much fresher.
Just seeking some advice; starter volume is now ~800mL due to an SG reading I took.

Options:

1. Pitch settled yeast from 375mL straight into this volume
2. Use microwave to sterilise original starter, crash chill again and then pitch settled yeast from stubbie
3. Sterilise starter in microwave, split and step up in smaller increments.
4. Create entirely new starter and set up in smaller increments.


I'm also wondering where the root cause of the issue_ most likely_ lies (I know it would be difficult to highlight definite cause). Old stock? Too large an initial starter volume?


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## Danscraftbeer

Kinda on topic. Has anyone compaired thier cultured bottled yeast to thier cultured/started up dry yeast?
I know Coopers say it isnt the same but i'm wondering if it is the same just proccessed alterations to make it a dry yeast.


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## Bogan333

* Making a Starter*

*DME* *Water* *Yeast Nutrient*

*Grams * *Milliliter* *Milligrams*
50g 500ml 130mg
75g 750ml 190mg
100g 1000ml 250mg
125g 1250ml 310mg
150g 1500ml 370mg
175g 1750ml 430mg
200g 2000ml 500mg
225g 2250ml 560mg
250g 2500ml 620mg
275g 2750ml 680mg
300g 3000ml 750mg
325g 3250ml 810mg
350g 3500ml 870mg
375g 3750ml 930mg
400g 4000ml 1000mg
425g 4250ml 1060mg
450g 4500ml 1120mg
475g 4750ml 1180mg
500g 5000ml 1250mg


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