# When To Cold Condition?



## cpsmusic (26/3/11)

Hi,

I'd like to try cold conditioning an ale that I've just brewed. I bulk prime my brews and then bottle them. Just wondering when cold conditioning is done. Should it be done straight after bottling or should the bottles be allowed to carb first? Does it matter?

Cheers,

Chris


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## Bribie G (26/3/11)

I cold condition all my ales, sometimes up to a fortnight, to settle all the shyte out and let them "mature" before bottling or kegging. However this is best done before bottling. 
I rack into one of these, with gelatine, and flush the headspace with CO2 and chill to about 0 degrees.





Then about 3 days before bottling I add Polyclar.
Then keg and a few bottles left over. 

Alternatively if you ferment in a temp controlled fridge then after primary, crank the fridge down to zero for a week or so. 
By adding priming sugar to a bottle then immediately fridging it you achieve nothing IMHO

Edit: cold conditioning in bulk then bottling leaves the shyte in the CC vessel. Bottling and then cold conditioning leaves the shyte still in the bottles.


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## barls (26/3/11)

its normally done before bottling to reduce the amount of sediment in the bottle.


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## bullsneck (26/3/11)

IMHO, I cold condition the fermentor after 14 days. This ensures the yeast is done, both fermenting and cleaning up after themselves. I usually cold condition from 3 to 7 days for an ale but I am in no rush when creating brews. Each to their own.


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## Bribie G (26/3/11)

Yes, if you can get your production line ahead of schedule you can afford the luxury of holding brews in cold conditioning (fridge space permitting) and have well finished beers into keg and bottle.
I recently kegged and bottled an ale out of primary in order to save some time, as I needed the fridge space, and it's turned out chill hazed to buggery and a bit rough compared to a brew with very similar recipe that was CCd for 3 weeks, and turned out smooth as a baby's bum and crystal clear when cold.


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## peaky (26/3/11)

I wait until I get a steady FG reading, rack to a secondary fermenter, then get the fridge down to about 1 degree for a week or so to cold condition. Then I let it warm back up to fermenting temp to bottle (this could be unneccesary, I'm not exactly sure), then leave the bottles at room temp to carb.


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## peaky (26/3/11)

BribieG said:


> Yes, if you can get your production line ahead of schedule you can afford the luxury of holding brews in cold conditioning (fridge space permitting) and have well finished beers into keg and bottle.
> I recently kegged and bottled an ale out of primary in order to save some time, as I needed the fridge space, and it's turned out chill hazed to buggery and a bit rough compared to a brew with very similar recipe that was CCd for 3 weeks, and turned out smooth as a baby's bum and crystal clear when cold.



Interesting that the longer cc times make such a big difference to your beer, I've only ever chilled for a week tops. I've got some extra fridge space so I might chill for longer this time and check the difference. I've got nothing to lose :icon_cheers:


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## timryan (27/3/11)

Gday Guys just a question. I dont have a fridge but wouldnt mind CC. ive had an ale brewing at 19 degrees for the last 10 days. if i switched off the immersion heater and put some ice around it to drop the temp down would it make a difference in the scheme of things or because i dont have a fridge is it best not to worry?


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## manticle (27/3/11)

While not ideal, cooler temps will still help.

To the OP: As mentioned, cold conditioning is usually done prior to bottling once final gravity is reached. It is better to leave the brew for a few days at ferment temps before chilling as it allows the yeast to clean up a few by products of fermentation.

If as you suggested, you were to cold condition immediately after bottling, the yeast in the bottles would not be active and would not carbonate the brew. Therefore cold conditioning in the bottles would be done after carbonation, not before. However for reasons mentioned above, better to do it with the whole brew prior to bottling.

If you have the room though, carbonated bottles are best stored in cool or cold conditions.

@peakydh: It is not necessary to allow the brew to warm to room temp after cold conditioning.

Agree with Bribie G on the difference time in cold makes to the maturation of a brew.


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## michael_aussie (27/3/11)

When cooling down .... is it OK to drop from 18 (or whatever you ferment at) down to 1 or whatever you CC at immediately, or should it be over a period of time??

If it should be gradual, how do people do this? ... A few degrees every few hours? 

Also.. what is the ideal CC temperature???

I brew dark and red ales.


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## manticle (27/3/11)

Even sticking in the fridge at 2 degrees won't be immediate. I stick mine straight in. You could drop it gradually if you have a fermentation fridge - I believe it's recommended for lagers from d-rest temp and I believe it's graduated over several days. White and Zanaisheff suggest that dropping quickly can create esters and shock proteins. I leave my beers at ferment temp for around a week after FG so I don't know how that affects things.

Ideal temp is as cold as possible (not so it freezes though) - I would aim for between 0 and 4.


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## peaky (27/3/11)

manticle said:


> @peakydh: It is not necessary to allow the brew to warm to room temp after cold conditioning.
> 
> Agree with Bribie G on the difference time in cold makes to the maturation of a brew.



Too easy. I just cranked my fridge down to zero this morning to cc an ale. I'll leave it 2 weeks then bottle.

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## cpsmusic (27/3/11)

I'm still a bit confused about this. In my original post I didn't make clear that I don't have a fridge that I can put my fermenter in. However I've just bought a new fridge for the kitchen and there's enough space in it for me to store about a dozen bottles in one of the shelves. I was thinking of using this for cold conditioning the bottles.



> If as you suggested, you were to cold condition immediately after bottling, the yeast in the bottles would not be active and would not carbonate the brew. Therefore cold conditioning in the bottles would be done after carbonation, not before.



Once the batch is in the bottles and bulk primed does it matter whether the cold conditioning occurs before carbonation or after?


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## peaky (27/3/11)

cpsmusic said:


> I'm still a bit confused about this. In my original post I didn't make clear that I don't have a fridge that I can put my fermenter in. However I've just bought a new fridge for the kitchen and there's enough space in it for me to store about a dozen bottles in one of the shelves. I was thinking of using this for cold conditioning the bottles.
> 
> 
> 
> Once the batch is in the bottles and bulk primed does it matter whether the cold conditioning occurs before carbonation or after?



I believe that the idea of cold conditioning your brew is to help clear it of yeast etc before bottling. Yeast and hop debris fall out of suspension in cold conditions, but yeast also become far less active in cold conditions (especially ale yeast), hence waiting until fermentation is finished before chilling the beer. If you chill your beer straight after bottling, the yeast will become less active, increasing the time it takes to carb up. Chilling your beer after it carbonates is good for serving and storage but that's about it I think.

Hope this makes sense, I've had a few Sunday arvo bevvies.... :chug:


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## speedie (28/3/11)

cold conditioning is as stated it is after ferment and prior to bottling kegging etc
once in the bottle and primed it then becomes maturation time
dont be put off by the sediment in the bottle as a lot of famous beers have this and are rated world class beers
i have often wondered on the case of autolisis as some of these beers have excess amounts of yeast and dont display any off traits at all 
lagers are filtered for presentation purposes only
i cant think of one commercial beer that comes to mind that is bottle carbonated

if you are going to continue in this hobbie it would be a great assett to your brewing rig to procure another dedicated fridge for temperature control and monitoring it is well worth the effort and expence
most verge pickups now days bin working fridges of all sizes


if you really wont to try conditioning with your fridge clean and flush your bottles fill to the lip cap and store
after conditioning time open decant into prime flushed bottles and recap
to my thinking this has some chances of infection getting into the brew but it will give you an idea of the exercise 
as another thought prime and bottle some of the same brew set aside and sample next to your conditioned bottles this will give you a good heads up on weather it is worth all the time put in
cheers speedster B)


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## barls (28/3/11)

lets see bottle carbonated,
murrays, potters, chimay and most of the rest of the belgians, coopers to mention a few.
not doing very well there speedie once again.


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## HeavyNova (28/3/11)

barls said:


> lets see bottle carbonated,
> murrays, potters, chimay and most of the rest of the belgians, coopers to mention a few.
> not doing very well there speedie once again.


Not sure about LC Pale Ale in the 330ml bottles but I think the 500ml pint bottles say that they use bottle carbonation too.


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## going down a hill (28/3/11)

speedie said:


> most verge pickups now days bin working fridges of all sizes
> 
> 
> cheers speedster B)



You lost me on that one.


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## barls (28/3/11)

hes talking about council clean ups.


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## speedie (28/3/11)

still at it dont you blokes read anything on these threads or are you cyber bullies
read my post both of you stone throwing dumbwits
once it sinks in name one commercial lager that is bottle carbonated
if you please try to be a little more constructive and give some advise to the thread so the reader can gain some kwnoldge from your or my mistakes
is this too much to ask
speedie :huh:


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## barls (28/3/11)

speedie,
for a start you didnt say lager you said beer. 
as for two that are bottle conditioned lagers
potters bock, potters pilsner, murrays pilsner when it was in bottles.
i kind of remember a sediment layer in Schlenkerla. 
hell just checked here http://www.schlenkerla.de/schlenkerla/karte/getraenkee.html
they are bottle conditioned as well. there goes that theory speedie.

as for bullying, just correcting the bad info given.
if you have a problem with me correcting your incorrect statements hit the report button, personally ive done nothing wrong atm.


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## Yob (28/3/11)

speedie said:


> still at it dont you blokes read anything ____________
> read my post both of you stone throwing dumbwits
> is this too much to ask
> speedie :huh:




Quote "who has just finished his PhD on the effects of bottle conditioning in the production of craft lager beers at Udine University in Italy."

Quote 2 "Most importantly, Andrea will lead our bottling operation and bring a wealth of knowledge with regards to the extension of our bottle-refermented range."

Source

Please Speedie.. at least do a _'little'_ research... is this too much to ask?

To the OP, you have already botteled then just leave to let carb up and then CC for as long as you can, this will help drop any excess yeast still in suspension to the bottom of the bottle, pour carfully and dont let the last of the beer come out of the bottle.

Hope this helps.

[edit] damn... am I a bully now too? :blink:


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## manticle (28/3/11)

cpsmusic said:


> I'm still a bit confused about this. In my original post I didn't make clear that I don't have a fridge that I can put my fermenter in. However I've just bought a new fridge for the kitchen and there's enough space in it for me to store about a dozen bottles in one of the shelves. I was thinking of using this for cold conditioning the bottles.
> 
> 
> 
> Once the batch is in the bottles and bulk primed does it matter whether the cold conditioning occurs before carbonation or after?



The benefits of cold conditioning will still occur if you chill in the bottle - haze proteins will start to drop out etc. However definitely carbonate first. Think about it - you want yeast to carbonate the beer but by chilling you are trying to drop out yeast and other material. Chilling first, carbonating afterwards is just doing everything backwards and potentially creating problems for yourself.

Bottle, carbonate, then stick bottles in the fridge for another 1 or 2 weeks.


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## outbreak (28/3/11)

I thought it was bad to rack to secondary straight after FG had been reached because diacetyl needs to be cleaned up by the yeast in suspension.... I had trouble with diacetyl then started to raise the temp toward the end of ferment then hold it around 4C higher than ferment temp for 3 days after FG, then chill. No more buttered popcorn for me!


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## manticle (28/3/11)

I always leave my brews for at least 5 days after FG. If I do rack it's either for bulk priming or around 3/4 the way through active ferment. (although recent beers I've not done this to ascertain the difference).


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## damianjthorpe (28/3/11)

G'day Brewers,

What about cold crashing in the primary to help clear a beer when adding finings?

Cheers and happy brewing,
Damo


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## speedie (28/3/11)

mainstream lager worldwide is filtered pinpiont carbed then bottled
yeast free tunnel pasturised stablised etcised
that is why it gets a pu unit rating
selflife and useby date


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## barls (28/3/11)

speedie said:


> mainstream lager worldwide is filtered pinpiont carbed then bottled
> yeast free tunnel pasturised stablised etcised
> that is why it gets a pu unit rating
> selflife and useby date


speedie,
in case you havent noticed mate we arent talking about main steam lagers world wide.
once again you try to derail an active topic to suit yourself.


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## Nick JD (28/3/11)

Nice striped shirt speedie.


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## Barley Belly (28/3/11)

speedie said:


> cyber bullies



Go get em speedie


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## manticle (28/3/11)

DamoT said:


> G'day Brewers,
> 
> What about cold crashing in the primary to help clear a beer when adding finings?
> 
> ...



In the primary vessel sure but not during primary fermentation.


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## Bizier (28/3/11)

I like to crash beer down and fine while in primary vessel after it has finished fermenting, and then a few days extra to clean up. I have not been able to do this for a while because I have had another beer fermenting for a long time occupying half my ferment fridge, so don't want to crash chill that. I have noticed that it takes a while at serving temperature for the beer to clear up (I guess slower precipitation of proteins) and lose some of the rough edges ('green' beer flavours).


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## rude (29/3/11)

I've just started to cc my last 4 brews 

Usually ferment for 2 to 3 weeks then cc at 2 c Im talking ales for 1,2,3 weeks depends when I can bottle

Very happy with the outcome except last APA when cc ing the tap has started to leak out the opening about 300mm so far

Have been spraying twice a day with sanitiser hope I dont get an infection, got to find the time to bottle, oh to have a keg,kegs.


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## damianjthorpe (30/3/11)

G'day Brewers,

Thanks again for all your rapid responses. Very helpful indeed. Don't mind admitting my last few brews were a little under-carbed due to racking then fining then bulk priming. D'oh!  Will correct the procedure during next brew.

Cheers and happy brewing,
Damo


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## ploto (31/3/11)

Hope you don't mind me jumping in with a few questions myself.

I just scored myself a 20l cube and have a mate with a cool room in his shop that sits on 4C, is this cool enough to be of worth doing?

The said cool room is down the bottom of the hill, will the 2min car ride back home after a few weeks in the cool room undo all the good work?

And do I need to add finings or gelatine to the cube? I am not worried about clarity so I only want to do this if it improves the taste of the beer, which it sounds like it will.


Just trying to get it all straight and see if it's worth the effort, so the process for me would be:

Ferment brew to a stable final gravity as usual.
Instead of bottling, put it in the cube being careful not to aerate (I can purge the cube with CO2 prior to filling).
Let sit for a day or two before putting in the cool room.
Leave in the cool room at 4C for 2 weeks.
Lug back up the hill and let sit for a few days to return to ambient temperature.
Bottle from cube and then leave to carbonate as per usual.

And if I can get another cube I can use it to bulk prime before bottling.

Is there anything I'm missing?


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## manticle (31/3/11)

ploto said:


> Hope you don't mind me jumping in with a few questions myself.
> 
> I just scored myself a 20l cube and have a mate with a cool room in his shop that sits on 4C, is this cool enough to be of worth doing?


Yes



ploto said:


> The said cool room is down the bottom of the hill, will the 2min car ride back home after a few weeks in the cool room undo all the good work?



Just be careful - maybe get someone to sit in the passenger seat, cube upright between the knees. Allow it to settle a bit when you get it home.



ploto said:


> And do I need to add finings or gelatine to the cube? I am not worried about clarity so I only want to do this if it improves the taste of the beer, which it sounds like it will.



Need? No. You can - these will help yeast drop out and if you use Isinglass you may drop out some chill haze proteins as well. Chill haze doesn't affect flavour but yeast in suspension does. Personally I find a week or so in the fridge gives clear beer without finings.




ploto said:


> Just trying to get it all straight and see if it's worth the effort, so the process for me would be:
> 
> Ferment brew to a stable final gravity as usual.
> Instead of bottling, put it in the cube being careful not to aerate (I can purge the cube with CO2 prior to filling).
> Let sit for a day or two before putting in the cool room.



Better to let it sit for a few days at ferment temps before racking to the cube. Contact with the yeast helps clean up a few flavours. Then place in cool room.




ploto said:


> Lug back up the hill and let sit for a few days to return to ambient temperature.



No need to let it warm up.


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## ploto (31/3/11)

too easy.

:icon_cheers:


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## jakethedog (17/10/11)

Just scored a free fridge!!!!! I plan to use it for temperature control but firstly plan to use it for cold conditioning an ale. Could I get some opinions on whether I can cc in the primary fermenter for 2-3 weeks at as low temp as possible or is it best to rack to secondary after fermentation is finished? I am worried about the brew spending too long on the yeast cake. Thanks for your opinions.


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## mfeighan (17/10/11)

i have never had problems with CCing/lagering in the primary fermenter. Dont worry about leaving it on the yeast cake, from experience it can spend a good couple of months without negative effect

edit: on the plus side the less you stuff around with transferring vessels the less chance of infection


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## stux (17/10/11)

The lower the temperature the longer you can leave it on the yeast cake with no ill effects


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