# 10 Min Apa, No Chilled.



## mje1980 (22/8/10)

I recently tried a 10min IPA ( sammus' ). Was delicious, so i wanted to do one. I'm used to low gravity beers, so i just went a standard APA. 1.050, 40 IBU, with equal amounts cascade, and columbus. 

I no chill, and have been for a while. I have never changed my hop calcs, and i read a lot about people changing calc's for no chill. Im no scientist but i dont know why. Although i still calc my FWH as 20 mins, so i might have strange taste buds, though i dont get many complaints about bitterness. 


Anyway, i'll update. I should be pitching this week on some pacman. 



Cheers


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## bum (22/8/10)

I'll be interested to hear your results because (as you may recall) I've just cubed a 10 min APA which is entirely cube hopped. Mine will be getting some 1272 tomorrow.


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## argon (23/8/10)

bum said:


> I'll be interested to hear your results because (as you may recall) I've just cubed a 10 min APA which is entirely cube hopped. Mine will be getting some 1272 tomorrow.



Bum this will come out great done it a couple of times and the hop presence is fantastic even after no chilling add a bit of dry hop and the aroma will be there. I usually count the cube addition as 15mins but in Vic left outside, in the shed or whatever 10mins could be about right. For the sake of experiment next time Ill drop the dry addition and see how it goes in terms of aroma.

Youll enjoy it no doubt. :icon_cheers:


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## Phoney (23/8/10)

argon said:


> I usually count the cube addition as 15mins but in Vic left outside, in the shed or whatever 10mins could be about right. For the sake of experiment next time Ill drop the dry addition and see how it goes in terms of aroma.



Me too.

But what do you do about 5 min and 0 min additions?


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## argon (23/8/10)

phoneyhuh said:


> Me too.
> 
> But what do you do about 5 min and 0 min additions?



I french press if want really late additions say 10, 5, 0 mins. Just let it steep for the required amount of time in a litre of water or so with a tablespoon of LDME just to help with attenuation. Add the strained tea to the fermenter at pitching time.

I've got a pale on at the moment that had a 10 min and 5 min addition of Amarillo, Bsaaz and Cascade using the french press method that's come out really good. Drhyop if i want more resiny aroma.


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## Swinging Beef (23/8/10)

mje, sammus 10min IPA is (was??) awesome.
I look forward to trying yours.
(hint hint)


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## Sammus (23/8/10)

Swinging Beef said:


> mje, sammus 10min IPA is (was??) awesome.
> I look forward to trying yours.
> (hint hint)



is! whether or not there is any left, it will always be awesome!!! and you say you dont like hops pfft

Oh yeah, and there is a good 7L or so left in a mini keg.


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## mje1980 (23/8/10)

bum said:


> I'll be interested to hear your results because (as you may recall) I've just cubed a 10 min APA which is entirely cube hopped. Mine will be getting some 1272 tomorrow.




Yep, im interested in yours too haha. Will update. Hopefully by friday its fermenting. Just gotta keg a special bitter, currently sitting at 1.013, so got a few more points to go. 

Sammus IPA was the inspiration, forken lovely beer. If all works well, might have to break my "I prefer 3-4% ales only" rule and brew a bigger version. Whens the next hop bulk buy?! haha. I should have a fe bottles spare, and if so i'll give you two some. I have some tripel i need to give you both too.


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## bum (23/8/10)

Just pitched the starter on to mine. Gotta say that my grav sample seemed adequately bittered but the hop flavour and aroma was about where I would want it in the finished product so I imagine I will need to do a hop tea for this one once the yeast does its job. Although 1272 does do magical things to hops sometimes so we'll see.


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## Swinging Beef (23/8/10)

Sammus said:


> ...and you say you dont like hops pfft


I like YOUR hops. I dont like MY hops.


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## Sammus (23/8/10)

bum said:


> Just pitched the starter on to mine. Gotta say that my grav sample seemed adequately bittered but the hop flavour and aroma was about where I would want it in the finished product so I imagine I will need to do a hop tea for this one once the yeast does its job. Although 1272 does do magical things to hops sometimes so we'll see.



FWIW I could barely taste the hops in mine pre fermentation. Once the yeasties did their job it was a bit more noticeable, then once cold and carbed they stood out like dogs bollocks. I didn't add anything except for the 10min addition.


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## bum (23/8/10)

Duly noted. I guess that comparing to a more traditional brew at the same stage might not be the best way to judge things. My plan was always to consider a hop tea at FG so I'll stay on course with that one but I will keep your post in mind when the time comes. Thanks.


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## mje1980 (29/8/10)

Beer's down to 1.008, and ready to be kegged. A sample of the beer is quite bitter. More bitter than i expected. Im guessing i'll need to give it a week or so in the keg. The aroma is great though!. 

For most "normal" beers i don't seem to have any problems with not changing calc's for hops, but i think from now on, the "super hoppy" beers are going to have to require some different calcs.

Will update when kegged and carbed. 

How's yours going bum???


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## bum (30/8/10)

Took a sample today, it is sitting at 1011 so getting very close. Bitterness is a little muted for my tastes but it is bloody delicious if I were to be honest. I think I'm going to align myself with the minority who adjust by 10 minutes rather than 20 when no-chilling - but I am most certainly not one who says no chill has no effect at all on bitterness. The wort didn't see hops until it hit the cube after whirlpooling - these are something akin to minus 15 minute additions and I'd guess the beer would be bittered into the low 20IBU region. Still not done though so no final conclusions yet.

[EDIT: now that I think about it some more I guess I'm not so certain about the time shift that suits me for no-chill as none of my hops were in the boil at all and all the hop material was in the cube. But this method has better shown me the _potential_ changes that may be brought about when no-chilling though. Looks like I have more research to do - FOR SCIENCE!!!]


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## Nevalicious (30/8/10)

bum said:


> Took a sample today, it is sitting at 1011 so getting very close. Bitterness is a little muted for my tastes but it is bloody delicious if I were to be honest. I think I'm going to align myself with the minority who adjust by 10 minutes rather than 20 when no-chilling - but I am most certainly not one who says no chill has no effect at all on bitterness. The wort didn't see hops until it hit the cube after whirlpooling - these are something akin to minus 15 minute additions and I'd guess the beer would be bittered into the low 20IBU region. Still not done though so no final conclusions yet.




Bum, do you have your recipe handy. Care to post it???

I like the idea of nothing but plain ol cube hopping... Do you still do a lengthy boil or is this no longer necessary due to no hop additions

Cheers

Tyler


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## bum (30/8/10)

Still have to do a full length boil because the boil is also to kill nasties and get rid of certain volatiles.

Rough recipe is posted here in WAYBIII http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=668628

I based the recipe on discussion in this thread for Phillip's 10Min IPA recipe in the DB. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...amp;recipe=1192

I won't post the full recipe here yet as it isn't done yet and I don't want to recommend someone do a brew before I know what it turns out like - no matter how tasty the SG samples may be.


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## Nevalicious (30/8/10)

bum said:


> Still have to do a full length boil because the boil is also to kill nasties and get rid of certain volatiles.
> 
> Rough recipe is posted here in WAYBIII http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=668628
> 
> ...




Ta, will look further into it then!

Tyler


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## jyo (31/8/10)

You blokes have inspired me. I have 160 gms of Amarillo in the freezer just screaming at me to try this on the weekend.
So it will be- 
4400 galaxy
500 munich
400 wheat
200 crystal
160 gms Amarillo at 10 mins, no chill...
Looking forward to this.
Cheers guys.


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## mje1980 (31/8/10)

Maybe try them at 0 mins, straight in the cube. Mine is on the bitter side. Still haven't kegged it so it could smooth out, but at present is a little bitter. Nest time im gunna try them at flameout. Lucky i have a shitload of hops at present!

Should be drinking by friday, so i'll post a review then.


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## mje1980 (1/9/10)

I kegged and rosscarbed it this morning, and am now drinking a pint ( im on night shift so need to sleep hehe ). With some carb in it, the bitterness is much better, not as harsh, though it is still more bitter than i expected. Aroma is very nice. Im definately going to do another, but i might calc the hops at 10 mins again, but put them in at flameout, or 1 minute. I think this would work quite well, as im not far off what i wanted.

I might also lower the %age of high alpha columbus, and go with 75g Cascade, and 25g Columbus, just to help smooth it out a little. 


Definately worth exploring. I can imagine that a UK IPA with challenger, or first gold or something and some uk yeast would work very good too.


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## mje1980 (1/9/10)

I've decided another pint is needed to get a clearer indication of the bitterness :icon_cheers:


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## bum (11/9/10)

Had a couple PMs asking how mine is going so I'll bang up a quick update in case anyone else is curious.

Lazy bugger only got around to bottling it yesterday. At this point (and still a bit too early to be certain of anything) it is looking pretty good. It is looking pretty far off being to style but it still has me more excited than any other beer I've made at this point. The bitterness is far too low to line up with my 15 minute calcs but it is there and smooth. Nice but mellow (for style) hop fruitiness. Very glad I went a little complex on the maltiness for this one it might be a little lifeless with a more plain grainbill and this level of hopping. My feelings so far are that this method most certainly does work and works well but will need significant tinkering to get it to personal taste - or just go with an IPA and go hard.


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## black_labb (11/9/10)

to those that want to do late hopping then drain into the cube i'd try and get the hops into the cube as well as it could mess with your calculations a bit and effect the aroma. 

Though I didnt do all cube hopped apa's, i've got 2 apa's in fermentors that are mostly cube hopped. one had 10g of nelson sauvin for bittering and 70g of hops (chinook, cascade and a bit of perle), the other was similar but a bit more bittering and a bit less cube hopping. I used 20 mins for my calculations, i'll have to see what the beers come out as but they were both calculated for mid 40's ibu so i'll see what happens. 
I'm curious to hear more results.


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## WarmBeer (11/9/10)

bum said:


> Had a couple PMs asking how mine is going so I'll bang up a quick update in case anyone else is curious.
> 
> Lazy bugger only got around to bottling it yesterday. At this point (and still a bit too early to be certain of anything) it is looking pretty good. It is looking pretty far off being to style but it still has me more excited than any other beer I've made at this point. The bitterness is far too low to line up with my 15 minute calcs but it is there and smooth. Nice but mellow (for style) hop fruitiness. Very glad I went a little complex on the maltiness for this one it might be a little lifeless with a more plain grainbill and this level of hopping. My feelings so far are that this method most certainly does work and works well but will need significant tinkering to get it to personal taste - or just go with an IPA and go hard.


Did you whirlpool before cubing? I measured the temperature after a 10 minute whirlpool rest, and it had dropped down to around 90-91 deg. 

Wondering whether going a full flameout addition rather than cube addition might up the bitterness, as it will be in contact with near-boiling wort for that extra time.


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## bum (11/9/10)

Yeah I did whirlpool but was aware of the issue you've raised beforehand. My plan was that I was going to build this beer entirely around the reported effects of no-chill.

Yes, I agree that a flameout addition gets higher temps but a cube does take a long time to cool (under a blanket in this instance) so I was hoping this would hopefully even out in the end as the hops would be in the hot wort for longer. I can't really say either way but the beer is looking good so far.

So impressed with the results thus far am I that I've partly incorporated this technique into a Pliny tribute (i.e. not a clone) I've got brewing now (the flameout additions went into the cube).


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## Sammus (12/9/10)

tried mje's the other night and i thought it was awesome. bitterness spot on imo, good work mate.


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## mje1980 (12/9/10)

Thanks sammus, after consideration ( and a week in the keg! ) i've decided im not going to change the calculations for no chill. 10 mins calc'd will go in as 10 mins. Should raise a few eyebrows hehe.

Though i would never have brewed it if i hadn't had your 10 min AIPA, so cheers for the inspiration. Will do another soon. Though i'll go 25/75 columbus/cascade, to get some more yummy cascade goodness


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## joecast (12/9/10)

Great thread guys. Love the experimentation and tinkering. Only improvement would be if we could get one of these cube hop only beers into a lab and get actual ibu. Though for home brewing and enjoyment of the craft, let your taste buds be the guide.

I have simplified my hopping to a 60 and 10 min additions before no chill. Might try moving the 10 min to 0 and the n dump it all into the cube rather than leave the hops in the kettle. 

Look forward to a final report and any changes you would make. Cheers
Joe


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## schooey (12/9/10)

bum said:


> So impressed with the results thus far am I that I've partly incorporated this technique into a Pliny tribute (i.e. not a clone) I've got brewing now (the flameout additions went into the cube).



Interested to see how this one works out, bum.


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## bum (1/10/10)

Ok, I've had a few of these now (purely for science, I'll have you know) and have drawn my conclusions. And a unicorn.

With the hopping entered as 15minute additions in Beersmith the beer was supposed to be 32IBU but it is definitely tasting mid 20s - if I do this method again for an APA I will calc at 10 min. The reason I say "if" is that I'm not certain this method (cube hops only) is suited to APAs. The malt character is really forward (basically to English pale levels) and with the reserved bitterness but very bright hop flavours and aromas I don't think you could get this to balance properly in an APA (but don't get me wrong, this is still the best beer I've ever made - it just doesn't really fit any category properly). This method will work very well with English pales and IPAs from either side of the pond (the bigger the better). Wouldn't even consider it for lagers or wheaties if you want them to remain at all within style.


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## [email protected] (1/10/10)

bum said:


> Ok, I've had a few of these now (purely for science, I'll have you know) and have drawn my conclusions. And a unicorn.
> 
> With the hopping entered as 15minute additions in Beersmith the beer was supposed to be 32IBU but it is definitely tasting mid 20s - if I do this method again for an APA I will calc at 10 min. The reason I say "if" is that I'm not certain this method (cube hops only) is suited to APAs. The malt character is really forward (basically to English pale levels) and with the reserved bitterness but very bright hop flavours and aromas I don't think you could get this to balance properly in an APA (but don't get me wrong, this is still the best beer I've ever made - it just doesn't really fit any category properly). This method will work very well with English pales and IPAs from either side of the pond (the bigger the better). Wouldn't even consider it for lagers or wheaties if you want them to remain at all within style.



What method in beersmith did you use - Rager, Tinseth?


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## bum (1/10/10)

Tinseth. Not for any reason other than that is what it was set to originally. My feeling is that it doesn't really matter so long as I keep using the same one - I'm only making beers for me.


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## jakub76 (1/10/10)

Tinseth assumes 0 ibu from 0 minute additions while the Rager formula considers some bitterness even from a 0 minute addition. Maybe try adjusting your beersmith recipe for your inclusion as a 0 minute addition with Rager and see if you think the estimated IBU's are close to accurate, I'd certainly be interested to know. I use the Tinseth formula as I think it's more accurate for regular boil additions though most recipes assume Rager so I keep an eye across both.


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## bum (1/10/10)

Under Beersmith both methods are showing 0IBU for 0min additions only. Looking at my existing recipe with Rager selected instead is showing 19IBU which seems a little bit low to me going by how the beer tastes - obviously my method is probably not one that is really taken into consideration with either formulation though so I'm not saying either is better than the other. Interesting to see you say most recipes assume Rager, I've never read that before - can anyone point me to some reading on that?


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## jakub76 (1/10/10)

That's interesting. I use BrewPal on the iPhone and it generates some IBU's from 0 minute additions using Rager but not Tinseth. I had assumed that beersmith would do the same if it's the same formula. I wonder what Promash does. 
The Promash default formula is Rager. I know JZ and the BN crowd work in Rager too...bloody trendsetters.


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## bum (1/10/10)

The issue may well exist only between the chair and the keyboard (and the fridge). I'll run it again tomorrow when I am less pissed.


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## felten (2/10/10)

There is an interview with Glen Tinseth on brewstrong somewhere


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## mje1980 (2/10/10)

Today i'll be pitching some pacman onto a 10 min US brown ale for an upcoming event. Should be interesting as it is a 1.050 ( overshot by 5 points ) ale, but with only 25 IBU, so definately wont be high in bitterness like the APA i did. 



Im sold on 10 min beers. Im keen to try a 10 min English pale ale.

P.S i use beertools, and average out the IBU calcs. It averages tinseth,rager,daniels,beertools calc, and maybe one other calc. There is a reasonable amount of difference between some of the calculations.


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## Arghonaut (25/1/11)

Going to do one of these for my next brew, also no chill. Think i'll start with an apa before i move into ipa territory until i can test the bitterness. To start going to just do a 10 min addition and make no allowance for nochill and see what happens. What grain bill have you guys been using, the 95% pils 5 % carapils?

Any suggestions for hops? I have some centennial i am keen to use, also have plenty of cascade, hallertau, chinook, amarillo and POR aswell. centennial/amarillo maybe? Or just straight centennial?


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## Arghonaut (26/1/11)

Heres what im thinking:

BB Ale 4kg
Munich1 1.1 kg
Carapils 0.3kg
BB Wheat malt 0.3kg

160 grams centennial(7.7%) @ 10 mins, 41 IBU


Its the same grainbill Argons LCPA clone uses, which i have done recently and bittered to close to 70 IBU (and its very tasty), so i figure if the nochill adds bitterness the grain bil can handle it, and if i feel it needs more i will just do a hop tea and whack it in.


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