# High Temperature Hose Selection - Be Careful!



## PistolPatch (11/6/09)

I have noticed some questions recently on AHB as to what hose should be used for no-chilling etc. The answers given have been worrying me for some time as unsuitable hoses have often been recommended to new brewers. This can have devastating consequences as the following experience shows... [No names in the following story sorry.]

A new brewer contacted myself re problems he was having with brewing. I sent him some replies and then, 'palmed,' him off to another brewer who lived closer thinking it was a basic brewing error he was making. The second brewer checked my ground and more but before you know it, this poor brewer had done *12* undrinkable brews.

When I realised this, I felt so sorry for him that I said I would come and watch him do his next brew. The other brewer graciously turned up as well (he was as frustrated as myself!)

We had gone through everything imaginable with this brewer who had, as it turns out, done everything right from day one of his AG brewing.

Pretty much as soon as we arrived, we noticed a dis-coloured hose that he had used to no-chill his wort from the kettle. Upon putting the nose to our nostrils, the answer was pretty clear - it had a real plasticised stink which interestingly enough resulted in pretty much a severe 'kit twang' in his beers.

A lot of new brewers don't even notice kit twang so good on him!

He was using a reinforced PVC hose. These are only rated to 65 degrees so you might get away with them in a traditional, chilled brewery but they are definitely no good for no-chill.

Before you buy, ask your supplier if the hose will handle 100 degrees and that it is food-grade.

As far as I know, silicone hose is the only hose that does.

Anyway, that's all and everything I wanted to say on this matter so you guys take it from here.

Spot ya ron,
Pat


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## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

PistolPatch said:


> He was using a reinforced PVC hose. These are only rated to 65 degrees so you might get away with them in a traditional, chilled brewery but they are definitely no good for no-chill.


While I'm happy to stay the all-silicone route I have taken for my brewery, I'm well aware of a certain home-scale brewery maker that uses re-enforced PVC almost exclusively, without issue.

I'm not saying that it is rated to such high temps, but perhaps there are other additional factors that have caused the issues with the new brewer's hose.

Just food for thought.


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## katzke (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> While I'm happy to stay the all-silicone route I have taken for my brewery, I'm well aware of a certain home-scale brewery maker that uses re-enforced PVC almost exclusively, without issue.
> 
> I'm not saying that it is rated to such high temps, but perhaps there are other additional factors that have caused the issues with the new brewer's hose.
> 
> Just food for thought.



No issues, but are they no chilling?


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## PistolPatch (11/6/09)

Unfortunateley QB (wish I was wrong), I reckon the answer to your additional factors query is a 99.9% no. We checked everything. The other brewer involved is a qualified judge / hugely experienced brewer etc and it had him buggered for months until he smelt the hose.

As you say though, there are a heap of breweries that use the same hose but the ones I have seen, chill.

Anyway, I forgot to mention, if anyone doubts their hose, there are two easy tests. The first is to simply put it up to their nostril and inhale deeply. If the word plasticised resonates then you have a problem. The other more subtle test is to pour 2 litres of boiling house-hold water through the hose and then taste the result.


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## Thirsty Boy (11/6/09)

I do agree that you should do the test with boiling water that Pat suggests - and reckon you should do something similar with basically every bit of your brewery anyway... BUT

I think your mileage may vary on the results you get from PVC hose - every brew I have no-chilled, went from kettle to NC cube via a bog standard, got it from bunnings, PVC hose - and I have no off flavours as a result.

Not that I'm saying Pat or his fellow brewer are wrong - just that you need to test things out for yourself and discover if yu actually have a problem.

Me I'm mostly using silicon hoses now and when my current "cube transfer" hose needs swapping out, I will most likely replace it with silicon. But that stuff _is_ expensive...


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## white.grant (11/6/09)

I'm using PVC hose for most of my transfer applications and have found it adequate, certainly hasn't ruined worts into the cube, but it does have a pretty short service life when transfering hot liquids. 

PVC is pretty unstable and will become more brittle as it ages -- this is accelerated when heat is involved (or sunlight). Once the discoloration and embrittlement starts its time to chuck them away and start with a new one. You can literally see that the tubing is dead.

cheers

grant


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## Screwtop (11/6/09)

Clark Rubber at the Sunshine Coast had a few different types of reinforced PVC hose. One was suitable for water transfer but not storage (meaning that is water sits in the hose it will pick up the plastic nasties). Another was food grade for water, and petrol resistant, water can be left sitting in this hose without plastic tainting. Another is high temp food grade, can't remember the rating but above 100C, I think 120C. This is what I use for transfer in some areas of the brewery and have for years, the rest is all silicon. 

Years ago I bought reinforced drinking water hose from bunnings, it had a blue inner hose. The shit melted at the connectors plus anywhere there was some tension on the hose. Bloody hard to get something good for nothing :lol:

Ask questions (then check for yourself) when selecting hose for the brewery especially for hot side transfer. 

Screwy


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## geoffi (11/6/09)

I've noticed that vinyl hose comes in different 'flavours'. Some emit a noxious chemical odour, others seem completely odourless. At the moment I'm using some stink-free vinyl hose for hot wort transfer. I've not noticed any off flavours/aromas, and have never seen the hose colapse or distort at high temps. However, the hose I've seen recently has all been the malodorous variety, so I think I'll be moving to silicon when my old workhorse heads for the knacker's yard.


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## domonsura (11/6/09)

I have to disagree completely, and I am suprised that you would make such a bold claim Pat. I am aware of one and one only person who has EVER experienced issues with this hosing - and the same person managed to strip chrome of his brass fittings and discolour the brass remaining with his use of extremely harsh caustic chemicals by his own admission, and posted on here about "Rusty Bolts on Beerbelly Hopscreen" which was just plain incorrect and misleading. This person has quoted "Phenolic and mouthcoating bitterness" as the fault, and accused the hosing of being to blame. The same person quoted a metallic taste to his brew samples earlier. Doesn't at all sound like plastic hosing taint to me. Could it be that the same chemicals that stripped the chrome off his brass fittings has then spread metal contamination through his brewery, damaged the hosing with the chemicals and the brewer has been having an infection problem as well? Never heard of a new brewer having infection issues they can't seem to remedy?
I am in fact using hosing from the VERY same roll that the person you are referring to was supplied hose from, and I have been using this brand hosing as hot transfer hosing for 3 years now, have sold roughly a kilometer of it - I have NEVER experienced a taint or problem with it. EVER. I am not aware of a SINGLE brewer who has experienced taint of issues with it. I am aware of FAR more brewers using PVC hosing than I am silicon, including state championship winners and AABC placegetters from both last year and the year before using this exact hosing - one of which is using the same hosing he purchased 2 years ago.

As far as I am concerned, the numbers speak for themselves - if there was an issue with the hosing, it would have been extremely apparent a LONG time ago as I would have had huge amounts of it returned - but I have not, including the hosing that has gone out on the breweries I make that are considerably priced. No room for error there so as far as I am concerned, the statement that there is an issue with the hose is a load of bollocks. There are too many people using it who have experienced no issue. All of them except one.


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## roger mellie (11/6/09)

So let me get this right Pat.

No chilling through PVC hose - contact time maybe measured in Seconds - into PVC containers with contact time with Wort > 65 DegC maybe 2 Hours or longer.

Hmmmm - Must be the hose.

I'm with Wayne - sounds like bollocks. I have some of this in my mash Tun which contacts with the Mash for 90 minutes usually above 65 DegC - No issues here.

RM


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## buttersd70 (11/6/09)

I use the same hose for both hot water and hot wort transfer, and I also no chill. Never noticed any plastic taste in my beer (and noone else that's tried my beers has either afaik). Even in low hopped, pale beers, where there is nothing substantial for off flavours to hide behind.


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## muckey (11/6/09)

gotta agree with Dom on this 1 - have used the same hose without any ill effects.......

.... and the only issue I've found with butter's beers, they're a little short h34r:


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## eamonnfoley (11/6/09)

domonsura said:


> I have to disagree completely, and I am suprised that you would make such a bold claim Pat. I am aware of one and one only person who has EVER experienced issues with this hosing - and the same person managed to strip chrome of his brass fittings and discolour the brass remaining with his use of extremely harsh caustic chemicals by his own admission, and posted on here about "Rusty Bolts on Beerbelly Hopscreen" which was just plain incorrect and misleading. This person has quoted "Phenolic and mouthcoating bitterness" as the fault, and accused the hosing of being to blame. The same person quoted a metallic taste to his brew samples earlier. Doesn't at all sound like plastic hosing taint to me. Could it be that the same chemicals that stripped the chrome off his brass fittings has then spread metal contamination through his brewery, damaged the hosing with the chemicals and the brewer has been having an infection problem as well? Never heard of a new brewer having infection issues they can't seem to remedy?
> I am in fact using hosing from the VERY same roll that the person you are referring to was supplied hose from, and I have been using this brand hosing as hot transfer hosing for 3 years now, have sold roughly a kilometer of it - I have NEVER experienced a taint or problem with it. EVER. I am not aware of a SINGLE brewer who has experienced taint of issues with it. I am aware of FAR more brewers using PVC hosing than I am silicon, including state championship winners and AABC placegetters from both last year and the year before using this exact hosing - one of which is using the same hosing he purchased 2 years ago.
> 
> As far as I am concerned, the numbers speak for themselves - if there was an issue with the hosing, it would have been extremely apparent a LONG time ago as I would have had huge amounts of it returned - but I have not, including the hosing that has gone out on the breweries I make that are considerably priced. No room for error there so as far as I am concerned, the statement that there is an issue with the hose is a load of bollocks. There are too many people using it who have experienced no issue. All of them except one.



Can you explain the problem going away after the hose was replaced with silicon?

I'm not in the business of making accusations, and sure I am an inexperienced brewer - which is why I did manage to strip brass nuts on my hopscreen because I was over-doing my cleaning routine trying to get to the root of the problem. And as for my varying accounts of the tastes I was experiencing - its hard to describe a taste when it doesnt fit into one of the common off-flavour categories, most of which I havent yet experienced. I have been through the mill trying to fix this problem that has been plaguing me since Xmas. 

All I can suggest is that I send a piece of the hose back and you can test it out yourself. I'm not here to cause trouble, and I certainly haven't been bagging your hose on the forums. I brought my concern over the hose to your attention directly as I was only just trying to get on track. But I don't think I deserve to be treated like an idiot - as your post suggests.


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## Fents (11/6/09)

threads now bookmarked.


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## MAH (11/6/09)

foles said:


> All I can suggest is that I send a piece of the hose back and you can test it out yourself.



Send the hose to an impartial third party. Get them to report back. 

Cheers
MAH


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## Adamt (11/6/09)

Is it possible that the PVC hose, which was discoloured and stinky (ALARM BELLS HERE?!), was just not clean?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (11/6/09)

I suggest you ring Pirtek the supplier and ask them about its use in above 65C applications.
See what they say.
GB


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## T.D. (11/6/09)

I have been using non-reinforced PVC hose in my brewery for years. The last lot I got actually does smell a bit plasticy and that did concern me a little bit, but due to my laziness I haven't replaced it and have done well over 10 brews with it, none of which have even a remote plastic taint to them. And that's with a hose that does actually smell like plastic.

I think more brewers use PVC hose than silicone, yet you never hear of people having issues with plastic taint. Not saying it isn't possible, but its extremely unlikely in my view.

Edit: I should probably add that I have had no experience with Beerbelly hoses, so my findings above are just for the standard Bunnings-style PVC stuff. Having said all this, I will eventually get some silicone hose to use instead.


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## Leigh (11/6/09)

foles said:


> Can you explain the problem going away after the hose was replaced with silicon?
> 
> I'm not in the business of making accusations, and sure I am an inexperienced brewer - which is why I did manage to strip brass nuts on my hopscreen because I was over-doing my cleaning routine trying to get to the root of the problem. And as for my varying accounts of the tastes I was experiencing - its hard to describe a taste when it doesnt fit into one of the common off-flavour categories, most of which I havent yet experienced. I have been through the mill trying to fix this problem that has been plaguing me since Xmas.
> 
> All I can suggest is that I send a piece of the hose back and you can test it out yourself. I'm not here to cause trouble, and I certainly haven't been bagging your hose on the forums. I brought my concern over the hose to your attention directly as I was only just trying to get on track. But I don't think I deserve to be treated like an idiot - as your post suggests.



Simple chemistry answer...if you stripped the metal with your cleaning process (I assume you were using hot concentrated caustic), then you probably de-plasticised the tubing (is it rough on the inside?)...it will then absorb anything that goes through it and release that (dissolved metals etc) and other plastic components into your brews...

Would also explain the "varied" tastes of each brew as it would depend on what went through the hose prior to brewing...


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## eamonnfoley (11/6/09)

Leigh said:


> Simple chemistry answer...if you stripped the metal with your cleaning process (I assume you were using hot concentrated caustic), then you probably de-plasticised the tubing (is it rough on the inside?)...it will then absorb anything that goes through it and release that (dissolved metals etc) and other plastic components into your brews...
> 
> Would also explain the "varied" tastes of each brew as it would depend on what went through the hose prior to brewing...



I had the problem from the very first brew with the hose - long before I even thought about using caustic. And the hose never came near the caustic anyway.

The tastes weren't varied - it was my description that varied as I tried to explain it more effectively.

I'm just happy the problem is solved.


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## Leigh (11/6/09)

What was the original cleaner/sanitiser you used? and what conditions did you use it under?

I'm assuming you didn't just use the hose as bought.

I'm sitting on the fence on this one rather than having the above slanging match...I suspect there will be a simple answer that will be useful to everybody. I remember the original thread(s), but now you've isolated the problem, the issue might be able to be resolved...


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## roger mellie (11/6/09)

Pat - would this brewer have been using the BIAB method perchance?? Maybe something else that comes in contact with the Wort leaching a flavour into the mash??

h34r: 

RM


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## domonsura (11/6/09)

Foles - there's no attempt on my behalf to make you look like an idiot - my question is this

if there is something wrong with the hose in a broad sense as you and Pat & Neville are trying to represent it - 

why are you the only person experiencing a problem?

If _only you_ had been sold it I could understand - but that's not the case. There would be somewhere in the region of 200-300 brewers out there using it in their brewing. It has to be something only you are doing, as I said I'm using hosing off the same roll with no issues. I don't feel the need to try and explain your brewing problems and defend the hosing - the experience of too many others tells me that it must be related to something you specifically are or are not doing - what it is I haven't a clue.


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## T.D. (11/6/09)

Must be a bloody big roll!! :lol:


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## domonsura (11/6/09)

T.D. said:


> Must be a bloody big roll!! :lol:



Nah it just took me far too long to get my brewery finished...


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## Katherine (11/6/09)

Foles has obviously done a brew since...??? Is the problem fixed???


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## brettprevans (11/6/09)

im not weighing into the argument, but have a few questions on pvc v silicone
1. is the generally available for brewing PVC heat rated?
2. if so to what temp.
3. anyone buying hosing should consider what they are using it for (ie hot or cold liquid transfer).
4. If its not heat rated for almost boiling temps and thats what your using it for, wtf are you using it. wrong tool for the job.

say a normal 3 vessel AG setup runs a march pump and all vessels individual plumbed. whats that about 5m worth or tubing max? i recon $100 for silicone (assuming $20pm max) is worth the peice of mind for handling bloody hot liquid.

then again when no-chill, as discussed we throw hot liquid into a PVC cube. unless of course its a heat rated cube which costs $.
happy to be corrected on any points.

edit: and far be it for me to dictate what people use in their own setups.


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## Leigh (11/6/09)

Katie said:


> Foles has obviously done a brew since...??? Is the problem fixed???



Aparently yes (see one of the threads)


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## Cortez The Killer (11/6/09)

I'm using tubing from beer belly throughout my brew stand and can't say I'm picking up any off flavours

The length of tubing that drains into the cube routinely gets boiled in the wort for the last 10-15 mins to sanitise

I did notice a slight plastic taint when using the tubing on my beer engine when beer was left in the line overnight - so I'll be using different tubing next time I rig the engine up

Cheers


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## Leigh (11/6/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> 4. If its not heat rated for almost boiling temps and thats what your using it for, wtf are you using it. wrong tool for the job.



When we were in the lab, we analysed a whole lot of different things that came through, and found sometimes that rated and unrated items could be identical...the rating was put in place just to enable a premium to be charged...

Not saying that that is or is not the case with this particular PVC tubing, but worth keeping in the back of the mind nonetheless...


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## eamonnfoley (11/6/09)

domonsura said:


> Foles - there's no attempt on my behalf to make you look like an idiot - my question is this
> 
> if there is something wrong with the hose in a broad sense as you and Pat & Neville are trying to represent it -
> 
> ...



Ok - I appreciate your concern as nobody else appears to be having the problem. I also understand you have no idea what I am doing when I brew. 

But whatever the cause, the hose is somehow related, because it was the ONLY variable I changed - and the mystery problem disappeared. Could have been luck, its hard to say for sure. But from my point of view, it is logical to conclude that my system might be better off without such a hose, becuase it is only rated for 65C whilst being exposed to near boiling wort - and that is a fact. Its a precaution if not a no-brainer.


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## Katherine (11/6/09)

Good news Foles... you must be relieved now... Glad you kept going I possibly would of given up after so many brews.


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## muckey (11/6/09)

glad that replacing the hose has fixed the brew. That piece of hose is obviously the culprit.
I'd say that the hose was most likely contaminated somehw though, plastic issues would result in most people using hose from the same roll having similar issues due to the temperature rating of the hose or manufacturing defects with it.


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## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

foles said:


> But whatever the cause, the hose is somehow related, because it was the ONLY variable I changed - and the mystery problem disappeared. Could have been luck, its hard to say for sure. But from my point of view, *it is logical to conclude that my system might be better off without such a hose*, becuase it is only rated for 65C whilst being exposed to near boiling wort - and that is a fact. Its a precaution if not a no-brainer.


You are correct up to the word 'because'.

Your system would be better off without a stinky piece of hose that is possibly damaged, possibly tainted, and possibly gross. You can't make the cause-effect leap to say that *all* PVC hose is bad without replacing your manky hose with _another piece of PVC_ and obtaining the same result. Considering the number of brewers that use it successfully, I would doubt that experiment would work.

What you've said is equivalent to; "_I was having trouble with my brews - I always add a handfull of cascade hops rolled in dog crap. I fixed the problem by swapping over to clean amarillo hops. Message: Don't use cascade hops._"


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## alowen474 (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> You are correct up to the word 'because'.
> 
> Your system would be better off without a stinky piece of hose that is possibly damaged, possibly tainted, and possibly gross. You can't make the cause-effect leap to say that *all* PVC hose is bad without replacing your manky hose with _another piece of PVC_ and obtaining the same result. Considering the number of brewers that use it successfully, I would doubt that experiment would work.
> 
> What you've said is equivalent to; "_I was having trouble with my brews - I always add a handfull of cascade hops rolled in dog crap. I fixed the problem by swapping over to clean amarillo hops. Message: Don't use cascade hops._"


But I like Cascade Hops, are you saying they are no good?


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## captaincleanoff (11/6/09)

can the piece of hose in question be sent to another brewer, who can transfer some wort with it - then see what happens?


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## eamonnfoley (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> You are correct up to the word 'because'.
> 
> Your system would be better off without a stinky piece of hose that is possibly damaged, possibly tainted, and possibly gross. You can't make the cause-effect leap to say that *all* PVC hose is bad without replacing your manky hose with _another piece of PVC_ and obtaining the same result. Considering the number of brewers that use it successfully, I would doubt that experiment would work.
> 
> What you've said is equivalent to; "_I was having trouble with my brews - I always add a handfull of cascade hops rolled in dog crap. I fixed the problem by swapping over to clean amarillo hops. Message: Don't use cascade hops._"



I think my point was clear & simple in that I would rather use a hose rated for the job, and I'm finding that this works for me. Nothing anybody says on this forum is 100% conclusive, but we isolated one item of equipment - fixed it and that was that. Then we discovered that the piece of equipment changed out was not suitably rated for the application. Being told that it "might be/generally is" ok despite being rated for 65C and not worth the risk to me. I'm not going to argue about how it could have been dirty etc. The hose didnt look or smell like wort, hops, beer or anything. Just smelt like harsh plastic and was discouloured a bit. And my beer was not infected, it was harshly tainted. 

Your cascade hops analogy is a joke. Those who like the hose, keep using it. I'm using silicon - everyone is happy.


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## samhighley (11/6/09)

I roll my amarillo in dog crap. Should I be doing it with my cascade instead?


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## captaincleanoff (11/6/09)

foles said:


> Being told that it "might be/generally is" ok despite being rated for 65C and not worth the risk to me.



so why did you do 12 more brews with it before moving to silicone?


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## Katherine (11/6/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> so why did you do 12 more brews with it before moving to silicone?




Because he didnt know then... look at the start of the thread... Be happy for the guy his brewing beer he enjoys now! ffs!


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## Leigh (11/6/09)

foles said:


> I think my point was clear & simple in that I would rather use a hose rated for the job, and I'm finding that this works for me. Nothing anybody says on this forum is 100% conclusive, but we isolated one item of equipment - fixed it and that was that. Then we discovered that the piece of equipment changed out was not suitably rated for the application. Being told that it "might be/generally is" ok despite being rated for 65C and not worth the risk to me. I'm not going to argue about how it could have been dirty etc. The hose didnt look or smell like wort, hops, beer or anything. Just smelt like harsh plastic and was discouloured a bit. And my beer was not infected, it was harshly tainted.
> 
> Your cascade hops analogy is a joke. Those who like the hose, keep using it. I'm using silicon - everyone is happy.



We have several facts here that can be confirmed. The two most striking are:

1. You have had a problem with a particular piece of PVC tubing, replacing it has fixed the problem.
2. Others use the same PVC tubing and don't have the same issue.

This points exclusively to an environmental issue i.e. something that occurred to the tubing BEFORE you used it.

QuantumBrewers post is 100% accurate, you have not demonstrated at all that PVC tubing is the culprit nor the issue, rather that YOUR piece of tubing was the problem.

I would still like to hear how you cleaned/sanitised the PVC tubing prior to use...


Captaincleanoff, I haven't seen anybody doubt that that particular piece of PVC tubing was not the problem.


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## HoppingMad (11/6/09)

I find it amazing that so many use pvc hosing when there's reports of 'plasticy smell' 'variety of flavours' and have read on another post about the issue of these hoses collapsing under the weight of grain too when used inside a vessel when connected to screens. Having to replace your stuff twice when you could have got silicon once doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me - but appreciate silicon is darn expensive.

I think there's a point here that the opening post makes that's still quite valid - use these hoses at your own risk, stuff can go wrong with them, not all of them but it's happened to quite a few here.

I haven't seen any threads talking about people experience problems with silicons. (But if someone can find one I'm happy to be corrected! :unsure

Hopper.


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## Darren (11/6/09)

If the hose is rated at 65C it shouldnt be used at boiling. Its that simple.

cheers

Darren


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## RobB (11/6/09)

Is there any chance that the reinforcing wire has punctured through the internal wall? That would create a lovely home for all kinds of nasties.


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## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

Darren said:


> If the hose is rated at 65C it shouldnt be used at boiling. Its that simple.


It may have been stated already, but under what specification is this hose 'rated'?

Does that mean 'rated as food safe for T < 65*C'... or 'rated as stable against collapse for T < 65*C'... or 'rated as will keep all properties constant for T < 65*C'?

If it's just for the temperature, the helical-coiled stuff takes care of the problem well enough. If it's actually likely to leach anything above 65*C then that may be a problem, depending on how much and what, but as I've said, most people seem to be doing okay with it, and I doubt it often happens (of its own accord) to the extent described earlier as to require a warning.


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## T.D. (11/6/09)

Its nylon reinforcing isn't it?

And I don't think we are talking about infections here - just taint from the plastic. Is that right?


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## Batz (11/6/09)

Been a while since you posted anything Pat...and that one went down well hey? :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Batz


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## therook (11/6/09)

Not taking sides here but if one variable has been changed then that has to have been the problem.

No brainer

Rook


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## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

therook said:


> Not taking sides here but if one variable has been changed then that has to have been the problem.


More than one variable has been changed. If he had replaced his entire brewery, would you still say it was 'just one variable - the brewery'? Refer to my 'cascade hops rolled in dog crap' analogy.

None of this is actually getting the OP any closer to finding what went wrong - send the hose to someone who might be able to find out. In the meantime, if you are using a different hose, then hopefully your problem is indeed solved. The rest is indeed academic, but you started it by making an outrageous claim without the correct evidence, so really, you asked for it.


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## hatchor (11/6/09)

therook said:


> Not taking sides here but if one variable has been changed then that has to have been the problem.
> 
> No brainer
> 
> Rook




I think thats true, the hose was the problem, swapping it out solved the issue....
but the question is...... _why_ was the hose the problem when so many others use the same hose....


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## Steve (11/6/09)

Crikey! Missed this one.

Cant wait to get home to smell my PVC Reinforced hose now. Not had a trouble with it. Have use I give it a rinse under the outside tap, leave it on the washing line all week then stick it in a fermenter with boiling water come next brew day!.

Cheers
Steve

P.S. It is getting slightly tanned coloured. Not sure if this is the hot wort or being out on the line all week!


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## Leigh (11/6/09)

hatchor said:


> I think thats true, the hose was the problem, swapping it out solved the issue....
> but the question is...... _why_ was the hose the problem when so many others use the same hose....



Exactly!


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## therook (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> More than one variable has been changed. If he had replaced his entire brewery, would you still say it was 'just one variable - the brewery'? Refer to my 'cascade hops rolled in dog crap' analogy.
> 
> None of this is actually getting the OP any closer to finding what went wrong - send the hose to someone who might be able to find out. In the meantime, if you are using a different hose, then hopefully your problem is indeed solved. The rest is indeed academic, but you started it by making an outrageous claim without the correct evidence, so really, you asked for it.





What are the other variables that were changed?

Rook


----------



## warrenlw63 (11/6/09)

Steve said:


> Crikey! Missed this one.
> 
> Cant wait to get home to smell my PVC Reinforced hose now. Not had a trouble with it. Have use I give it a rinse under the outside tap, leave it on the washing line all week then stick it in a fermenter with boiling water come next brew day!.
> 
> ...



Lots of nice hose "terroir" in your beer Steve? B) 

Warren -


----------



## Adamt (11/6/09)

The only problem is the difference between foles' reinforced pvc hose that lends a nasty flavour to anything that passes, and other reinforced pvc hose which anecdotally from many brewers does not create any problems.


----------



## muckey (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> More than one variable has been changed. If he had replaced his entire brewery, would you still say it was 'just one variable - the brewery'? Refer to my 'cascade hops rolled in dog crap' analogy.
> 
> None of this is actually getting the OP any closer to finding what went wrong - send the hose to someone who might be able to find out. In the meantime, if you are using a different hose, then hopefully your problem is indeed solved. The rest is indeed academic, but you started it by making an outrageous claim without the correct evidence, so really, you asked for it.




The affected brewer did say that he's brewed since with no ill effects. I'd say that his hose was likely this issue pistol patch indicates that swapping the hose cured the issue.

I think you are correct in saying that the issue isn't from the type of hose - I'd say its more likely contaminated - the dog crap analogy was a little off colour though <_< 

now the OP made the claim re the rating of the pvc hose and in fairness the hose isn't rated for the temp of hot wort so its a case of use at your own risk, but not enough to start attacking each other over


----------



## yardy (11/6/09)

Batz said:


> Been a while since you posted anything Pat...and that one went down well hey?
> 
> Batz




:lol: 






think i'll run my wort through a 90* swagelok compression fitting and stainless pipe B)


----------



## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

therook said:


> What are the other variables that were changed?





foles said:


> Can you explain the problem going away after the hose was replaced with silicon?


Replacing a bad-smelling/looking PVC hose with new silicon hose and saying the problem is fixed, and the cause was PVC is _exactly_ why I made the analogy above. _Only if_ you put silicon on and had no issues, then put PVC _back on_ and reproduced the issue could you say that the PVC was (at least a clue to) the problem. At this stage, it was the *manky piece of PVC* that was the problem, because swapping that out gave better results (if it did indeed).

Once again people: I'm just trying to distance this result from a cause-effect relation, since I don't think it's necessary to blame the PVC at this stage, much less warm people off it when they are having no issues.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Replacing a bad-smelling/looking PVC hose with new silicon hose and saying the problem is fixed, and the cause was PVC is _exactly_ why I made the analogy above. _Only if_ you put silicon on and had no issues, then put PVC _back on_ and reproduced the issue could you say that the PVC was (at least a clue to) the problem. At this stage, it was the *manky piece of PVC* that was the problem, because swapping that out gave better results (if it did indeed).
> 
> Once again people: I'm just trying to distance this result from a cause-effect relation, since I don't think it's necessary to blame the PVC at this stage, much less warm people off it when they are having no issues.


You have answered your own question.The hose was replaced due to the taste.It was replaced with another new piece of the same hose type from the same place..And guess what the taste came back.Your next analogy?
GB


----------



## T.D. (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Replacing a bad-smelling/looking PVC hose with new silicon hose and saying the problem is fixed, and the cause was PVC is _exactly_ why I made the analogy above. _Only if_ you put silicon on and had no issues, then put PVC _back on_ and reproduced the issue could you say that the PVC was (at least a clue to) the problem. At this stage, it was the *manky piece of PVC* that was the problem, because swapping that out gave better results (if it did indeed).
> 
> Once again people: I'm just trying to distance this result from a cause-effect relation, since I don't think it's necessary to blame the PVC at this stage, much less warm people off it when they are having no issues.



:lol: I think you are getting a bit technical here. Perhaps if we were in a university research institute or something the correct way to test this would have been to get another (new) piece of tube from the same roll and try that first (edit: just noticed Gryphon's post saying he did do this).

You seem to be suggesting that the "mankiness" of the old hose is a likely cause of the problem. By that logic, if he has not changed any of his cleaning regime, then he will get the same problems with the silicone hose anyway, so that "variable" cancels out, and we are back to looking at the tubing. 

The fact is none of us have all the info required to make any conclusions. As Foles himself has said, he has swapped the hose and the problem is gone. All is well. I don't think this thread was really warranted from the start.


----------



## muckey (11/6/09)

T.D. said:


> All is well. I don't think this thread was really warranted from the start.



PP does seem to like to stir up discussions though.

:lol:


----------



## 3G (11/6/09)

What is the hose in question? Clear with steel wire reinforcing? Is there some technical specs. so this issue can be put to bed.


----------



## Fatgodzilla (11/6/09)

Muckey said:


> PP does seem to like to stir up discussions though.
> 
> :lol:




I must jump in here and defend PP .. from my reading of his threads, he really has been very forthright. He stated the problem, stated the solution found and made a statement that people should check that the hoses we use should be scrutinized and replaced if found wanting. 



> now the OP made the claim re the rating of the pvc hose and in fairness the hose isn't rated for the temp of hot wort so its a case of use at your own risk, but not enough to start attacking each other over



This was a good statement Muckey, sadly its gonna be ignored, but I'm with you here brother.


----------



## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> You have answered your own question.The hose was replaced due to the taste.It was replaced with another new piece of the same hose type from the same place..And guess what the taste came back.Your next analogy?


Wait! I didn't see that earlier - that's a step forward in the process of elimination. It was replaced with more of the same type of hose and did the same thing over a short period of time? And it didn't do it to silicone hose? Then that would indeed suggest that the PVC hose itself is one part of the problem.

Question is: Is it inherently the PVC (in which case your warning is valid, although this seems quite unlikely since so many other people are not having issue) or is it just that silicone hose is invulnerable to whatever _is_ causing the issue - be that cleaning/sanitising or procedure?

Yes, I'm being technical in my method, but I seem to be one of the few people actually trying to figure out the why issue is happening rather than putting fingers in ears and ignoring the cause, or just adding back-and-forth about who uses what type of hose. Or was this just another thread where someone has posted a description of a problem that they didn't understand, didn't particularly want fixed, but want everyone to take as gospel?


----------



## Leigh (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Wait! I didn't see that earlier - that's a step forward in the process of elimination. It was replaced with more of the same type of hose and did the same thing over a short period of time? And it didn't do it to silicone hose? Then that would indeed suggest that the PVC hose itself is one part of the problem.
> 
> Question is: Is it inherently the PVC (in which case your warning is valid, although this seems quite unlikely since so many other people are not having issue) or is it just that silicone hose is invulnerable to whatever _is_ causing the issue - be that cleaning/sanitising or procedure?
> 
> Yes, I'm being technical in my method, but I seem to be one of the few people actually trying to figure out the why issue is happening rather than putting fingers in ears and ignoring the cause, or just adding back-and-forth about who uses what type of hose. Or was this just another thread where someone has posted a description of a problem that they didn't understand, didn't particularly want fixed, but want everyone to take as gospel?



Was just about to state the same QB, but won't waste my time typing it as you did a good job.


----------



## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

Muckey said:


> now the OP made the claim re the rating of the pvc hose and in fairness the hose isn't rated for the temp of hot wort so its a case of use at your own risk, but not enough to start attacking each other over





Fatgodzilla said:


> This was a good statement Muckey, sadly its gonna be ignored, but I'm with you here brother.


Can someone just clarify this for me... 'rated' is being bandied about, and I'm not entirely clear on the meaning in this context...



QuantumBrewer said:


> It may have been stated already, but under what specification is this hose 'rated'?
> 
> Does that mean 'rated as food safe for T < 65*C'... or 'rated as stable against collapse for T < 65*C'... or 'rated as will keep all properties constant for T < 65*C'?


----------



## eamonnfoley (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Replacing a bad-smelling/looking PVC hose with new silicon hose and saying the problem is fixed, and the cause was PVC is _exactly_ why I made the analogy above. _Only if_ you put silicon on and had no issues, then put PVC _back on_ and reproduced the issue could you say that the PVC was (at least a clue to) the problem. At this stage, it was the *manky piece of PVC* that was the problem, because swapping that out gave better results (if it did indeed).
> 
> Once again people: I'm just trying to distance this result from a cause-effect relation, since I don't think it's necessary to blame the PVC at this stage, much less warm people off it when they are having no issues.



Quantumbrewer I don't know why you are trying to twist people's words, or what your trying to achieve.

I changed quite a few items in my brewery over time - as you do when trying to solve a problem, each time returning more or less the same result. Then I changed ONE item for the latest batch - used a silicon hose for transfer to the cube, and the problem disappeared completely in the resulting beer. The reason the link is being made to the helical PVC hose and the problem, is because 

A - replacing it solved the problem immediately
B - their technical specification has them rated to 65C food grade, indicating the potential for compounds to leech into the beer. The symptoms reflected this.

This may not be 100% conclusive, but it is enough for me and a few others I'm sure. If others are happy with the hose, keep using it. But I choose not to, mainly because of point B. As Gryphon suggested, why don't you see what Pirtek says about it. 

Or do we need to get CSI in?


----------



## Screwtop (11/6/09)

I think I have it. If the hose is the type with helically wound wire moulded into it and it is being used near to an RF source of sufficient output then the device could have the potential to behave as a Plasma Reactor due to induced FR, if the wort provided a suitable nutrient mix then elemental selenium may be precipitated and removed from the wort. If under high temperatures Selenium Dioxide was produced it could give off irritating or toxic fumes.

So there that puts this one off situation to bed :lol:


Screwy



Gryphon Brewing said:


> I suggest you ring Pirtek the supplier and ask them about its use in above 65C applications.
> See what they say.
> GB



EDIT: Just called Pirtek they say they only have Rubber and Thermoplastic hoses, nothing in wire coiled PVC????

Just tried their site too, can't see it there Pirtek Catalog


----------



## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

foles said:


> Quantumbrewer I don't know why you are trying to twist people's words, or what your trying to achieve.


I'm not trying to twist anyone's words. If I have a problem with my brewery, I'm not happy to just fix it with dumb luck by swapping something out - I want to know what went wrong. While you seem quite convinced that it's got nothing to do with any chemicals or faults, and that PVC is the utimate cause, not just the proximate cause, I'm not so convinced since so many other people seem unable to reproduce your result.

If you are quite happy to leave it as _'problem solved - I'll worry about it if and when it ever comes up again'_ then so be it, end the thread. If you actually want to know _why_ it happened, and whether or not it's likely to happen again... ah, stuff it. Find someone else to help. I'll leave with this comic;


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (11/6/09)

Here is a typical case of Brewing CSI.One very hot day while watering the garden by hose I decided to have a drink from that hose.Yes you guessed it , that water tasted like plastic.I dont use that hose to fill my hot liquor tank any more.This resulted in a much better cleaner beer profile.
For those who doubt what affect a inappropriate rated hose can have on the taste, cut off a small 50mm piece boil it for a few minutes in a 250ml of water, wait for it to cool and have a taste.You will be surprised or in my case not surprised.
GB


----------



## Screwtop (11/6/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Here is a typical case of Brewing CSI.One very hot day while watering the garden by hose I decided to have a drink from that hose.Yes you guessed it , that water tasted like plastic.I dont use that hose to fill my hot liquor tank any more.This resulted in a much better cleaner beer profile.
> For those who doubt what affect a inappropriate rated hose can have on the taste, cut off a small 50mm piece boil it for a few minutes in a 250ml of water, wait for it to cool and have a taste.You will be surprised or in my case not surprised.
> GB




NO SHIT _ SHERLOCK :lol:


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (11/6/09)

Screwtop said:


> NO SHIT _ SHERLOCK :lol:


 You should take up skydiving as being funny is not your forte.Im trying to help here and some clown turns up. Go and bother some one else.
GB


----------



## muckey (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Can someone just clarify this for me... 'rated' is being bandied about, and I'm not entirely clear on the meaning in this context...



a lot of food grade pvc hose is only rated as being capable of use with liquids of 65 degress C or less without the plastic breaking down. No guarantees of what will happen if you put boiling wort through it.

starting to wonder if I need to rethink my hose


----------



## muckey (11/6/09)

Screwtop said:


> I think I have it. If the hose is the type with helically wound wire moulded into it and it is being used near to an RF source of sufficient output then the device could have the potential to behave as a Plasma Reactor due to induced FR, if the wort provided a suitable nutrient mix then elemental selenium may be precipitated and removed from the wort. If under high temperatures Selenium Dioxide was produced it could give off irritating or toxic fumes.
> 
> So there that puts this one off situation to bed :lol:
> 
> ...



you've been standing too close to a flux capacitor again I suppose :blink:


----------



## Screwtop (11/6/09)

Muckey said:


> you've been standing too close to a flux capacitor again I suppose :blink:



Fluk, is that what you call that shiny thing the beer comes out of ? :lol:


----------



## THE DRUNK ARAB (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> Wait! I didn't see that earlier - that's a step forward in the process of elimination. It was replaced with more of the same type of hose and did the same thing over a short period of time? And it didn't do it to silicone hose? Then that would indeed suggest that the PVC hose itself is one part of the problem.
> 
> Question is: Is it inherently the PVC (in which case your warning is valid, although this seems quite unlikely since so many other people are not having issue) or is it just that silicone hose is invulnerable to whatever _is_ causing the issue - be that cleaning/sanitising or procedure?
> 
> Yes, I'm being technical in my method, but I seem to be one of the few people actually trying to figure out the why issue is happening rather than putting fingers in ears and ignoring the cause, or just adding back-and-forth about who uses what type of hose. Or was this just another thread where someone has posted a description of a problem that they didn't understand, didn't particularly want fixed, but want everyone to take as gospel?


----------



## Leigh (11/6/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Here is a typical case of Brewing CSI.One very hot day while watering the garden by hose I decided to have a drink from that hose.Yes you guessed it , that water tasted like plastic.I dont use that hose to fill my hot liquor tank any more.This resulted in a much better cleaner beer profile.
> For those who doubt what affect a inappropriate rated hose can have on the taste, cut off a small 50mm piece boil it for a few minutes in a 250ml of water, wait for it to cool and have a taste.You will be surprised or in my case not surprised.
> GB



OK, So are you trying to tell us two new pieces of information...one he left the PVC tube out in the sun and it suffered UV degradation (I assume your garden hose WAS FOOD GRADE), two he was boiling his wort in the PVC tube while he drained into the cube...

Sorry, but your ability to make a scientific link is wrong. Firstly I can guarantee the chemical makeup of the two hoses are different, second it is impossible for him to be running 100 degree C water through his hose...funny things happen in solvents (yes water is a solvent) at their phase change temperatures. Funny how you always throw stones at the particular retailer involved. You wouldn't happen to be the "unamed" brewer in the OP that tried to help but couldn't?

As with the "no-chill" debate, people with no-idea have come to the wrong conclusion and sold it to others...not saying no-chill doesn't work, but the mechanism is wrong!

I ask for one last time...and this is for Foles, not some other idiot who thinks they know...how did you sanitise the PVC tube?


----------



## eamonnfoley (11/6/09)

Leigh said:


> I ask for one last time...and this is for Foles, not some other idiot who thinks they know...how did you sanitise the PVC tube?



I mentioned it in a previous post - sodium percarbonate (if my memory serves me correctly) and tap water.


----------



## Fatgodzilla (11/6/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Here is a typical case of Brewing CSI.



Always preferred NCIS .. Pauly Perrette .......eeeerrrrr :icon_drool2: 
​

Matter been referred to American script writers. Show should feature next summer. Sent them Screwy's synopsis 



> If the hose is the type with helically wound wire moulded into it and it is being used near to an RF source of sufficient output then the device could have the potential to behave as a Plasma Reactor due to induced FR, if the wort provided a suitable nutrient mix then elemental selenium may be precipitated and removed from the wort. If under high temperatures Selenium Dioxide was produced it could give off irritating or toxic fumes.



They will work that into a decent plot line and throw in a dead marine or two. 

Time we put this quarrel to bed yet ?


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (11/6/09)

Muckey said:


> a lot of food grade pvc hose is only rated as being capable of use with liquids of 65 degress C or less without the plastic breaking down. No guarantees of what will happen if you put boiling wort through it.
> 
> starting to wonder if I need to rethink my hose


I believe that was the point of PP,s thread.
GB


----------



## muckey (11/6/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I believe that was the point of PP,s thread.
> GB



agreed

he likes to throw these topics out there to get people to rethink their processes and hopefully improve thing for everyone


----------



## Leigh (11/6/09)

Muckey said:


> a lot of food grade pvc hose is only rated as being capable of use with liquids of 65 degress C or less without the plastic breaking down. No guarantees of what will happen if you put boiling wort through it.
> 
> starting to wonder if I need to rethink my hose



Actually PVC hose will break down in water at lower temperatures, given the right conditions (dissolved material and temperature) this accelerates the process (hence why I keep asking what he did to the hoses to sanitise).

The rating is usually determined by what the end use is and an acceptable rate of breakdown for that use. Although the ratings can be for different objectives as QB was saying.

Contrary to what others (GB?) would have you believe, there is no "sudden" magical temperature at which PVC will suddenly leach huge amounts of plasticiser or monomer...it is a gradual thing.

I highly doubt 5 minutes of running 90-95 degree wort through a tube is going to leach enough plasticiser from a 65 degree rated hose to be discernable in 20 L, unless of course that the hose is already starting to breakdown...sit the hose in the sun full of water all day or boil it in water and you will, but this is not what he is Foles is doing...is it?

Silicon hose is just a little more resilient to these processes...if Foles can kill two bits of PVC hose before he attaches them to his brewery, I believe he will also kill the Si hose and end up with the same problem...

Ho Hum, you try to help and get berated...


----------



## QldKev (11/6/09)

Screwtop said:


> Fluk, is that what you call that shiny thing the beer comes out of ? :lol:



Nope, thats what you say when you drop that shiny thing the beer comes out of.. :unsure: 

QldKev


----------



## Leigh (11/6/09)

foles said:


> I mentioned it in a previous post - sodium percarbonate (if my memory serves me correctly) and tap water.



How long? What temperature? How much sodium percarbonate in how much water? (thanks 3g)


----------



## 3G (11/6/09)

:lol: lets not forget pH as well!!


----------



## muckey (11/6/09)

Leigh said:


> Actually PVC hose will break down in water at lower temperatures, given the right conditions (dissolved material and temperature) this accelerates the process (hence why I keep asking what he did to the hoses to sanitise).
> 
> The rating is usually determined by what the end use is and an acceptable rate of breakdown for that use. Although the ratings can be for different objectives as QB was saying.
> 
> ...



true. 

so any thoughts on what may be giving a greater breakdown in foles situation than others here have experienced ( note your point in trying to obtain more info, just trying to get more info my self)

edit : typo's


----------



## QldKev (11/6/09)

Leigh said:


> How long? What temperature?



what was the tap water profile h34r:


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (11/6/09)

Leigh said:


> Actually PVC hose will break down in water at lower temperatures, given the right conditions (dissolved material and temperature) this accelerates the process (hence why I keep asking what he did to the hoses to sanitise).
> 
> The rating is usually determined by what the end use is and an acceptable rate of breakdown for that use. Although the ratings can be for different objectives as QB was saying.
> 
> ...


You have not mentioned volatilisation points in your round up?
GB


----------



## Leigh (11/6/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> You have not mentioned volatilisation points in your round up?
> GB



Christ, another piece of data from the All Knowing Wise One...didn't know he was well above the boiling point of water


----------



## Leigh (11/6/09)

Muckey said:


> true.
> 
> so any thoughts on what may be giving a greater breakdown in foles situation than others here have experienced ( note your point in trying to obtain more info, just trying to get more info my self)
> 
> edit : typo's



I have a few, but not going to mention them because as soon as I do the All Knowing Wise One says "we did that" or "we didn't do that"...

I will wait for the response so the AKWO doesn't change the story to fulfil his witch hunt of other retailers...


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (11/6/09)

Leigh said:


> I have a few, but not going to mention them because as soon as I do the All Knowing Wise One says "we did that" or "we didn't do that"...
> 
> I will wait for the response so the AKWO doesn't change the story to fulfil his witch hunt of other retailers...


Your funny.
GB


----------



## Darren (11/6/09)

hatchor said:


> I think thats true, the hose was the problem, swapping it out solved the issue....
> but the question is...... _why_ was the hose the problem when so many others use the same hose....




Its a well known fact that there are "tasters" and "non-tasters". Perhaps the OP could taste it but many other people cant.
I have judged many infected beers but presumably the entrant though it was top-notch.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Scruffy (11/6/09)

All this for a fork_in pipe_... it's lucky they didn't mention the dirty knife...


----------



## Leigh (11/6/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> Your funny.
> GB




And you can't spell :icon_cheers:


----------



## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

Leigh said:


> I highly doubt 5 minutes of running 90-95 degree wort through a tube is going to leach enough plasticiser from a 65 degree rated hose to be discernable in 20 L, unless of course that the hose is already starting to breakdown...sit the hose in the sun full of water all day or boil it in water and you will, but this is not what he is Foles is doing...is it?
> 
> Silicon hose is just a little more resilient to these processes...if Foles can kill two bits of PVC hose before he attaches them to his brewery, I believe he will also kill the Si hose and end up with the same problem...
> 
> Ho Hum, you try to help and get berated...


Interesting point. What else might have been done wrong?

Since I'm not even trying to help anymore, I'll add a nice little comparison from TV; I've watched all of 1 episode of 'House, M.D.' but it had a lovely little scene with a woman who was complaining about her asthma inhaler (puffer). I can't find a transcript, but it was along the lines of

Woman: _My inhaler does nothing. It's useless. My asthma is as bad as ever._
House: _Are you using it correctly?_
Woman: _Of course, do I look like an idiot? There must be something wrong with it._
House: _Show me how you use it..._







Woman: _See, no help whatsover!_


----------



## Darren (11/6/09)

Leigh,

Lets not forget that many brewers are recirculating mash temp and BOILING WORT through their hoses for anything up to two hours (depending on the system). 

Now I am unsure how long the tube was exposed to these temps but there is a good chance that PVC could leach, especially if the hose is not rated for food at those temps.

Also FWIW, I have had piece of silicon tubing I use to hold my outdoor blinds down that has sat in the Adelaide sun all day everyday for 5 years and it looks and behaves exactly as it did when I first used it. The "Occy straps" I originally used dissolved years ago.

cheers

Darren


----------



## Batz (11/6/09)

So where's bloody P.P. now?
Look what your done !

Batz


----------



## muckey (11/6/09)

Batz said:


> So where's bloody P.P. now?
> Look what your done !
> 
> Batz



awww  .

dont make him sit in the corner for a timeout


----------



## smollocks (11/6/09)

There's no need for people to get upset about this, it's fairly simple. If replacing only the PVC with silicone hose made the problem go away, it means one of two things:

1. The individual piece of PVC hose in question was bad in some way, or
2. All PVC hose is bad.

The number of people using reinforced PVC successfully means that option 1 is the most likely. It's true that foles doesn't have watertight scientific evidence that all PVC is bad, but everyone has to admit that PVC isn't officially rated for temperatures above 65C, and it's therefore a personal decision whether you use it. 

Not that it matters here, but I went for silicone hose because there's less than $5 difference between the two and I prefer to play it safe with a product rated for my usage.


----------



## Damian44 (11/6/09)

Can everyone stop posting, as this thread has grown by 2 pages since i started reading it. Just let me catch up.

Edit. 3 pages


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## chappo1970 (11/6/09)

Silicon all the way... B) 

Why stuff ass around with PVC in the first place?

Anyway lets move onto the evils of hose clamps.... h34r: 

Chappo


----------



## Batz (11/6/09)

Muckey said:


> awww  .
> 
> dont make him sit in the corner for a timeout




Sit in the corner, I'll take the bloody slipper to the little shit !

:angry:


----------



## muckey (11/6/09)

Chappo said:


> Silicon all the way... B)
> 
> Why stuff ass around with PVC in the first place?



lots of people apparently do



> Anyway lets move onto the evils of hose clamps.... h34r:
> 
> Chappo



if you get metal fittings hot enough and then attach a pvc hose you dont need hose clamps


----------



## chappo1970 (11/6/09)

Muckey said:


> if you get metal fittings hot enough and then attach a pvc hose you dont need hose clamps



Somehow I actually believe that.... :blink: :huh:


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (11/6/09)

Batz said:


> Sit in the corner, I'll take the bloody slipper to the little shit !
> 
> :angry:


Now thats some thing he would really like.
GB


----------



## yardy (11/6/09)

christ on a bike, this shits out of control :lol: 

5 pages about a bit of pipe that no doubt had mould in it...


----------



## haysie (11/6/09)

What did everyone use before that brittle rediculously priced silicone stuff come along? Green garden hose stretched in the sun removing the kinks :lol: 

I use Parker washdown ex Clark Rubber rated from memory [email protected], the high range was well above 99deg less psi, excellent stuff but pricey.

I have had silicone "tear" and have been able too shread and pick a piece to 1000 pieces the size of grains from a very small length. Never known the humble hose to do that.
In fairness to silicone, other brewers claim I copped a very bad batch (missing some secret keep it together ingredient) and I have witness theirs perform way better way longer.
I wouldnt go anywhere near silicone again.


----------



## daemon (11/6/09)

I've had problems with some PVC hoses before, one in particular (from Bunnings) leached a lot of nasty flavours into my brew transferring from the kettle to the cube. I've used other PVC hoses before, I rinsed it with hot water etc when it was new but this particular hose left a real strong plastic taste and smell. It was more dominant than Amarillo hops! This was the 2nd ever of my brews that I had to tip out, even after a month I couldn't even stand a mouthful of that batch.

I'm using basic hoses now from BCF that are rated for food / fuel and haven't had any problems. This is the stuff here: https://store.bcf.com.au/ProductDetails.aspx?PLU=118289

My apologies if this post was on topic :blink:


----------



## Batz (11/6/09)

yardy said:


> christ on a bike, this shits out of control :lol:
> 
> 5 pages about a bit of pipe that no doubt had mould in it...




It smells yucky too !





Batz


----------



## roger mellie (11/6/09)

:icon_offtopic: 

What is a no chill cube made of? 

RM


----------



## domonsura (11/6/09)

Regardless of all of this speculation by all the relevant 'experts' and product assasins - the invitation is always there for anyone concerned, to come along to one of our little brew days and witness the miracle of me circulating hot caustic solution/citric acid/phosporic acid sanitiser though this same hosing, and then do a brew with it - all with no taint. One happening this Sunday actually.

Simpy put, I won't be changing the hosing on my brewery any time soon, as I haven't been shown anything conclusive at all, and feel that everything mentioned is pure speculation, and drawing longshot conclusions based on VERY precarious logic - not FACT. FACT is what I can show with new piece after new piece after new piece of hose. Fact is that Foles was clearly having an issue with something to do with his brewing. Fact is that the issues stopped at the same time he replaced the hose. SPECULATION is saying that the hose was responsible or in fact had anything at all to do with it - FACT would be being able to prove it conclusively. 
The same faults quoted "Phenolic - mouth coating" can also be very quickly attributed to infection which brings me to my next point - Foles is/has been using (and I quote - post 79) "I mentioned it in a previous post - sodium percarbonate (if my memory serves me correctly) and tap water. " to sanitise the hose. Sodium percarbonate is NOT a sanitiser. It is a cleaner. It is also not 'no rinse', and will taint a brew with an alkaline mouth coating contaminated taste if not VERY well rinsed of brewing equipment - and that is a FACT. It may also have nothing whatsoever to do with that. It may have something to do with atmosphere, airborne contamination from the shed roof or the neighbours trees or whatever. 
It may be that there was an issue with this particular piece of hosing. It may also be just as likely that it has nothing to do with the hose at all (more likely based on the fact that I am using hosing cut from the same roll). It is also possible that the change in hosing has nothing at all to do with it, and Foles has just been lucky lately and very unlucky before. Who knows. Again, speculation.

Overall I am glad the issue seems to have gone away Foles. If I really thought there was an issue with the hose, it would be removed from sale - simple as that, but I believe that there are too many other possibile causes for it to have deserved to have been called into question in this fashion. Hope the issue doesn't surface again.


----------



## Scruffy (11/6/09)

Daemon said:


> I'm using basic hoses now from BCF that are rated for food / fuel and haven't had any problems. This is the stuff here: https://store.bcf.com.au/ProductDetails.aspx?PLU=118289





BCF says said:


> * P/MTR HOSE FOOD/FUEL RE/ 13MM *
> 
> Reinforced clear food/fuel hose
> Petrol resistant
> ...






...not very long is it...


----------



## MHB (11/6/09)

roger mellie said:


> :icon_offtopic:
> 
> What is a no chill cube made of?
> 
> RM



HDPE very different to PVC, and after reading the last 6 pages I am glad I use silicone hoes.

MHB


----------



## lobo (11/6/09)

scruffy,
how do you put the first bit of bold in red too

P/MTR

13mm is refering to the diameter

Lobo


----------



## haysie (11/6/09)

MHB said:


> HDPE very different to PVC, and after reading the last 6 pages I am glad I use silicone hoes.
> 
> MHB



Lucky bugger, my hoe fits the rigid garden hoe variety.


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (11/6/09)

haysie said:


> Lucky bugger, my hoe fits the rigid garden hoe variety.


Most hoe's Ive seen are part silicone.
GB


----------



## MHB (11/6/09)

Put it down to having very fat fingers
m


----------



## QldKev (11/6/09)

Quick we need a catheter.... ahh here some pipe... :lol: :lol: 

QldKev


----------



## AndySmith (11/6/09)

domonsura said:


> Regardless of all of this speculation by all the relevant 'experts' and product assasins - the invitation is always there for anyone concerned, to come along to one of our little brew days and witness the miracle of me circulating hot caustic solution/citric acid/phosporic acid sanitiser though this same hosing, and then do a brew with it - all with no taint. One happening this Sunday actually.
> 
> Simpy put, I won't be changing the hosing on my brewery any time soon, as I haven't been shown anything conclusive at all, and feel that everything mentioned is pure speculation, and drawing longshot conclusions based on VERY precarious logic - not FACT. FACT is what I can show with new piece after new piece after new piece of hose. Fact is that Foles was clearly having an issue with something to do with his brewing. Fact is that the issues stopped at the same time he replaced the hose. SPECULATION is saying that the hose was responsible or in fact had anything at all to do with it - FACT would be being able to prove it conclusively.
> The same faults quoted "Phenolic - mouth coating" can also be very quickly attributed to infection which brings me to my next point - Foles is/has been using (and I quote - post 79) "I mentioned it in a previous post - sodium percarbonate (if my memory serves me correctly) and tap water. " to sanitise the hose. Sodium percarbonate is NOT a sanitiser. It is a cleaner. It is also not 'no rinse', and will taint a brew with an alkaline mouth coating contaminated taste if not VERY well rinsed of brewing equipment - and that is a FACT. It may also have nothing whatsoever to do with that. It may have something to do with atmosphere, airborne contamination from the shed roof or the neighbours trees or whatever.
> ...



I am not going to get into the chemistry of PVC and what points it begins to release plasticisers that may or may not be carcinogenic, only to say that is it possible to identify a carcinogen by taste or smell?

Secondly, is it wise for a retailer knowing the end use for a product (i.e. recirculating boiling wort) to supply a product which they know is not rated by the manufacturer to perform the task for which it is being sold? Taste and smell excluded, if the product fails in service and scalds someone terribly due to being used at a higher than rated temperature with the purchaser not being advised of the rating of the product, the consequences for a retailer could be significant.

Just my 2c


----------



## Screwtop (11/6/09)

Suck more Wombats!


----------



## domonsura (11/6/09)

Turkey HB..... if I was representing it as being _rated_ for use at high temp then that might be so, but I am not, and have not made any representation as such to foles or anyone else. I advertise and sell it as PVC hosing with all the inherent properties of PVC, and make no claims whatsoever as to it's suitability for high temp or chemical use. 
What I _am_ entitled to do is relate my considerable experience with it as per my brewing use including my PERSONAL choice to use it for hot side transfer, and also to disagree with anyone who makes baseless broad statements about a product causing an issue with the sole piece of 'evidence' provided being a rating provided by a distributor that does not refer at all to it's unsuitability, simply provides a guide for it's suitability which is something complettely different. 
If you have interpreted my disagreement with the statement that the hosing 'caused the issue without question', as professional advice that the hosing is suitable for hot transfer and rated as such then you have mis-interpreted what I have said.


----------



## AndySmith (11/6/09)

domonsura said:


> Turkey HB..... if I was representing it as being _rated_ for use at high temp then that might be so, but I am not, and have not made any representation as such to foles or anyone else. I advertise and sell it as PVC hosing with all the inherent properties of PVC, and make no claims whatsoever as to it's suitability for high temp or chemical use.



From your website



> Helical Wire wound PVC hosing
> 
> Wire cored soft PVC, vacumn resistant & food grade.
> This tubing doesn't collapse when hot liquid is run through it - even using a pump, making it ideal for use in home breweries.[\quote]


----------



## Daniel.lear (11/6/09)

Define Hot?

Hot could be any thing above 40c degress. The term hot is open to ones perception.

Leary


----------



## haysie (11/6/09)

Leary said:


> Define Hot?
> 
> Hot could be any thing above 40c degress. The term hot is open to ones perception.
> 
> Leary


----------



## mika (11/6/09)

Who likes short shorts ?


----------



## domonsura (11/6/09)

Turkey Head Brewing said:


> From your website
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## AndySmith (11/6/09)

Leary said:


> Define Hot?
> 
> Hot could be any thing above 40c degress. The term hot is open to ones perception.
> 
> Leary



And that is the point I am making and in where the danger lies, it law in may come down to what the "reasonable person" believes hot to be, the reasonable person may not be a seasoned brewer but a juror who concludes hot includes boiling liquid and is therefore reasonable for a person to think that using it for boiling liquid is ok


----------



## Darren (11/6/09)

Wayne,

I guess what you need to ask as a retailer of such equipment is:

1. Whether you could get a brewery producing beer for consumption of the "general public" approved with your hosing.

2. If you have produced a brewery using this type of hosing, perhaps you should find out what the detrimental effects of consumption of beer made with this hosing is and the legal implications of such.

Food grade hosing is expensive (whether it is any different to the normal fibre woven hosing, I dont know). One thing for sure it does not contain "metal". My investigations say that food grade hosing has a completely different coloured "weaving" which also suggests that all woven tubings are not the same and possibly not food grade.

Finally, I remember you showed me this hosing a few years ago and although it looks tough with the in-woven metal, I clearly also remember telling you it was probably not food grade and that it looks like petrol hose (ie designed not to split and squirt flammable liquid whilst allowing visualisation of fluid transit).

cheers

Darren


----------



## pokolbinguy (11/6/09)

WOW...what a thread...the things you miss in a whole day..this site is nuts some times.

Some interesting reading in this though, whether the problem is ultimately from the hose in question, the make up of the hose (e.g. pvc), the materials in the brewery or the brewing technique of the brewer it really pushes home why the pro's use particular materials...e.g. SS pipes etc

I'm not going to add to the argument by pointing fingers at particular parts of the problem brewery but think that this has become a thread that should make others look at what COULD cause problems in their own home brewery. For one I know that silicon hosing would be great in my brewery but considering I have only done 2 AG brews the amount of contact and use of my hoses, fittings and other parts of my brewery are long behind in causing problems compared to my lack of experience (I could be wrong....I am just trying to make a point)....so anyway take out of this as little or as much as you want but each brewery is different.....and thats why we are all hooked on home brew.

Now where is my wallet....I hope its not empty 

Pok

P.S at this rate it will be early morning before I get through the days threads


----------



## Barley Belly (11/6/09)

I think I may have found the "Smoking Gun"



> This hosing _is rated food grade to 65 degrees C._



It maybe illegal for sale to be used knowingly/personally recommended otherwise????

I'm no lawyer

Just read the statement for yourself


----------



## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

Darren said:


> 1. Whether you could get a brewery producing beer for consumption of the "general public" approved with your hosing.


I'm sure you mean _consumption *by* the "general public"_, or are we resorting to eating people now?  

Seriously, is this where the thread is heading? How many home breweries (even the fancy pants ones on here) would be producing a product that could be 'approved for general consumption' by Food Standards Australia New Zealand??? I know most of us are fairly tidy, but it's not uncommon to brew in thongs in the shed using a vaguely washed mash paddle. 

I could go to many stores - specialty stores - and purchase a product with the intent of using it incorrectly, and by doing so, injure myself. Wayne does a good job of letting people know the pros and cons of equipment, and I doubt he'd be any more liable for the effects of PVC tubing than the person who sells a bottle of coke and doesn't ask if you're going to make a bong out of it, because heating the plastic will give off fumes.

Is this thread done yet?


----------



## domonsura (11/6/09)

Darren said:


> Wayne,
> 
> I guess what you need to ask as a retailer of such equipment is:
> 
> ...



Hi Darren, "probably not food grade" is an opinion, and although I am aware that you are highly intelligent and a qualified leader in _your _field, I am not aware of your field being chemical engineering of polymer products, so an opinion it remains.
To be honest, I don't ever recall showing you this hosing, I have never bought a sample to show you any, you have never been to my home, never been to my business premises & never seen one of my breweries in person at all so I'm not sure where you've seen it, but regardless - your opinion in _this particular case_ is incorrect.
The hosing IS food grade as I have stated, as per information provided by both distributor and manufacturer. The wire inside the PVC is stainless steel, which is also food grade, and also completely enclosed in the PVC which would make that a moot point anyway.... I know one thing - I'd much rather be using this than the rubbish with the nylon weaving.
I'm not debating that silicon is the ideal choice when it comes to hot transfer - never have, which is why we will be stocking it soon. I am disputing that the hosing caused the issues the the OP claims it did, and believe that there is more to it.


----------



## domonsura (11/6/09)

finners said:


> I think I may have found the "Smoking Gun"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I dunno, personally I think the latter statement answers the first. Is it legal to provide public advice on legal matters without being qualified? :lol:

(yes, I'm just beng silly now.) Is this thread done yet? I think we've reached the end of the rope. hose.


----------



## Darren (11/6/09)

Quantumbrewer,

Perhaps the message is that Wayne should stop selling said hosing unless he feels very confident (with a written guarantee from seller) that it is designed for hot wort tranfer?

cheers

Darren


----------



## Bizier (11/6/09)

MHB said:


> I am glad I use silicone hoes.



?


----------



## PistolPatch (11/6/09)

Batz said:


> Been a while since you posted anything Pat...and that one went down well hey? :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Batz



LOL! :icon_cheers: 

Yeah, this went down really well considering I spent about 3 weeks trying to work out how to create some awareness of this experience without getting anyone in the shit - lol! (I should have given Wayne and Eamon a heads up - sorry guys - confident posting whilst under the influence again.)

Thanks to those that realised my intentions were innocent and/or who posted constructive info.

Anyway, just going to grab my red permanent marker and put a big cross on the bit of my screen where Post New Topic appears.

_x_
Pat


----------



## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

Darren said:


> Quantumbrewer,
> 
> Perhaps the message is that Wayne should stop selling said hosing unless he feels very confident (with a written guarantee from seller) that it is designed for hot wort tranfer?


I'll support that as soon as you show me the written guarantee that says that an esky is suitable for holding 70*C wet grains for several hours with a hole drilled in the side. And the same for a Crown urn. And brass fittings. 

I won't even mention no-chill cubes.


----------



## AndySmith (11/6/09)

domonsura said:


> Hi Darren, "probably not food grade" is an opinion, and although I am aware that you are highly intelligent and a qualified leader in _your _field, I am not aware of your field being chemical engineering of polymer products, so an opinion it remains.
> To be honest, I don't ever recall showing you this hosing, I have never bought a sample to show you any, you have never been to my home, never been to my business premises & never seen one of my breweries in person at all so I'm not sure where you've seen it, but regardless - your opinion in _this particular case_ is incorrect.
> The hosing IS food grade as I have stated, as per information provided by both distributor and manufacturer. The wire inside the PVC is stainless steel, which is also food grade, and also completely enclosed in the PVC which would make that a moot point anyway.... I know one thing - I'd much rather be using this than the rubbish with the nylon weaving.
> I'm not debating that silicon is the ideal choice when it comes to hot transfer - never have, which is why we will be stocking it soon. I am disputing that the hosing caused the issues the the OP claims it did, and believe that there is more to it.



My final comment on the matter is that you have said it is food safe at 65 degrees and have the hose on the recirc. arm of your mash tuns which you sell.....what temp is sparge and mashout?


----------



## Darren (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> I'll support that as soon as you show me the written guarantee that says that an esky is suitable for holding 70*C wet grains for several hours with a hole drilled in the side. And the same for a Crown urn. And brass fittings.
> 
> I won't even mention no-chill cubes.




Quantum,

I have been saying that for years. Lets hope down the passage of time we don't see a significant occurence of "increased disease" because of such practice.

cheers

Darren


----------



## browndog (11/6/09)

PistolPatch said:


> LOL! :icon_cheers:
> 
> Yeah, this went down really well considering I spent about 3 weeks trying to work out how to create some awareness of this experience without getting anyone in the shit - lol! (I should have given Wayne and Eamon a heads up - sorry guys - confident posting whilst under the influence again.)
> 
> ...



I wouldn't worry too much Pat, there is some major pissing contests going on here mate and none of it can change the fact that when he changed the hose the problem went away. As for those that claim the hose may have been the source of an infection that may have been the cause, they have obviously never done a no-chill.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

Darren,

Come back later when you have built your 100%-stainless-steel brewery and show us how wrong we were. Careful though, we might not all be dead from contaminants in our breweries built from components financially accessible to the average home brewer.

I'm sure it's quite nice in the ideal world. I'm told the beer is free, and they've never heard of iso-hop.


----------



## jonocarroll (11/6/09)

browndog said:


> none of it can change the fact that when he changed the hose the problem went away.


And the 'finger-in-their-ears-shouting-I'm-not-listening' award goes to....



browndog said:


> As for those that claim the hose may have been the source of an infection that may have been the cause, they have obviously never done a no-chill.


Non sequitur much?

As stated earlier - those are entirely different plastics. Why shouldn't it be possible for a piece of hose to be comprimised, and become a haven for infection, even if that's not what happened here? Are you suggesting that the process of no-chill is _proof_ that hot plastics can't get infections?


----------



## tazman1967 (11/6/09)

Wow...This thread certainly got the Indians off the reservation ! 
Have enjoyed watching the responses. ( Ive got silicon hoses BTW)


----------



## browndog (11/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> And the 'finger-in-their-ears-shouting-I'm-not-listening' award goes to....
> 
> 
> Non sequitur much?
> ...



Your Honour, I rest my case.

-BD


----------



## Barley Belly (11/6/09)

tazman1967 said:


> Wow...This thread certainly got the Indians off the reservation !
> Have enjoyed watching the responses. ( Ive got silicon hoses BTW)



This is what I'm running









Thought it was silicone

Looks like only high temp rubber..............DOH



> *Tube:* Black Versigard (EPDM)
> *Reinforcement:* 2-Spiral Flexten (Aramid)
> *Cover:* Blue Versigard (EPDM)
> 
> *Temperature Range F & C:* -40˚F to +300˚F (-40˚C to +149˚C)



Oh well
Time for a change

Any recommendations???

Come guys, slowing down
Gotta get 10 pages before I go to bed

(Put another marshmallow on the fire and sits back and watches this thread)

EDIT
Just Googled EPDM doesn't sound that bad?????


----------



## loikar (11/6/09)

Hmmm.....Wha?

ohhh

I LIKE SHORT SHORTS!


----------



## domonsura (11/6/09)

BeerFingers said:


> Hmmm.....Wha?
> 
> ohhh
> 
> I LIKE SHORT SHORTS!



JEEEsus, what temp do you think those legs are rated to? My initial thoughts are 'hot', but that's such a vague rating.....they do look food grade though. Wonder if she'd put that in writing? (Get's glasses to read inevitable fine print) Oh dear, there it is. ...

"No guarantee express or implied that these legs will remain suitable for your chosen purpose"


----------



## Adamt (11/6/09)

I'd lick those pipes clean of hot wort.


----------



## Scruffy (11/6/09)

lobo said:


> scruffy,
> how do you put the first bit of bold in red too
> 
> P/MTR
> ...



Hit reply, highlight the text in the quotes you want to change colour, then click on the pull down button to the right of Font size box (the one with the big blue A in it) and chose your colour...

Oh, aah, 13mm is the _diameter_. Ooh yeeeah, I see it now...

So that's the reason my missus says stoppit with the 'dad' jokes...

Hope the formatting hint helped anyway :icon_cheers: 

FWIW - I'm all silicone where it matters...

h34r:


----------



## muckey (12/6/09)

BeerFingers said:


> Hmmm.....Wha?
> 
> ohhh
> 
> I LIKE SHORT SHORTS!



I'm up for a testing session h34r:


----------



## LethalCorpse (12/6/09)

Guys, it's a very simple idea. We know that it's possible for plastics to leech materials into liquid they come in contact with. The degree to which this occurs is open to speculation and experimentation. The effect on your beer, and on you after you drink it, is open to the same. 

If a given material is rated food grade to a certain temperature, and you are using it above that temperature, it is no longer food grade. Refer to the first paragraph. If you want to trust it, go nuts. Don't smack other people about for finding, or even claiming, that it's causing problems, though. You can't be certain yourself unless you've applied the same tests the manufacturer would have to in order to label it food grade. Why would they only label it food grade to 65? Maybe it's a business decision to sell the same hose at two different ratings with a premium on the higher one. Maybe it's because the hose failed the food grade tests at temperatures above 65. Whatever the reasons, it's not food grade unless it's been demonstrated to be so by an approved testing house under the applicable standards. You're welcome to your opinion on whether that's a problem, and you're more than welcome to use it in your brewery anyway. It probably won't kill you. It probably won't harm you. It might not even introduce bad flavours to your beer. But don't smack the guy who thinks it might, finds anecdotal evidence - however unscientific his method may be - to support the theory, and decides to use hose that _is_rated to the job, then recommends such practice to others.

If you want to be certain that the materials you use in your brewery are safe for contact with hot wort for human consumption, then use materials that are rated food grade at greater than boiling temperatures. Generally, that means stainless steel and silicone. I'm not going to start the galvanic corrosion argument again here, but it applies as much as my above arguments. You might have been using it for years and never noticed any ill effects. But let's face it, you were drinking at the time, and you didn't happen to have a chemical testing facility in your trousers.


----------



## clean brewer (12/6/09)

Does anyone user this Heat Tolerant Hose?(its under "Pumps, Racking, siphoning).. Food grade inner lining to +98 degrees and an ok price!!!!!


----------



## KHB (12/6/09)

I use beer belly wire bound hose and have never had a problem with it, and im pumping hot caustic through it every couple of brews.

Scotsman


----------



## Leigh (12/6/09)

Darren said:


> Leigh,
> 
> Lets not forget that many brewers are recirculating mash temp and BOILING WORT through their hoses for anything up to two hours (depending on the system).
> 
> ...




Mate, best to re-read the first post then...this tube was used to fill the no-chill cube! The OP then goes onto argue that had it been chilled, there probably would not be a problem...no mention of recirculation!

Additionally, you have evidence of one effect on your Si hose (UV) and that proves that it is invincible to all manner of degredation by all means...you deserve a medal mate! That just throws out 200 years of chemistry and physics!

Anyway, isn't it obvious that he had some botulism growing in his hose? :lol: Lucky he didn't drink it... h34r:


----------



## Leigh (12/6/09)

browndog said:


> I wouldn't worry too much Pat, there is some major pissing contests going on here mate and none of it can change the fact that when he changed the hose the problem went away. As for those that claim the hose may have been the source of an infection that may have been the cause, they have obviously never done a no-chill.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Sticks and stones buddy.

Go and stick your head back in the sand.

None of your post addresses the fact that others who have posted in this thread use this same hose for no chill, recirculation of hot wort and have no issues. 

Having done no chill or not, there are some fundamental principles of physics, chemistry and biology that you and your chronies seem to be completely ignorant of. Don't want to know? Good, re-read my second line of this post...


----------



## Leigh (12/6/09)

PistolPatch said:


> LOL! :icon_cheers:
> 
> Yeah, this went down really well considering I spent about 3 weeks trying to work out how to create some awareness of this experience without getting anyone in the shit - lol! (I should have given Wayne and Eamon a heads up - sorry guys - confident posting whilst under the influence again.)
> 
> ...




What made me laugh the most Pat is that you are the one who recommends using material that is NOT rated for food and has better degradation properties than said PVC...in your BIAB.

Now before some idiot mis-represents what I am saying, I am not saying that BIAB does not work or is somehow dangerous, what I am saying is you can't argue one way and then be a complete hypocrite on a similar but different topic!

I'm pretty sure I know why Foles killed two bits of PVC hose before using them, but your investigative skills and his openness on this topic to find out what went on and to prevent it from happening again are hindering the process (let alone all the other know-it-alls and wheel kickers).

Now, Foles FINALLY told us he used percarb (searched mate and you never posted that before in this thread), so now lets see if he can tell us how much he used and how he went about this clean...soak? dip? temp? concentration?


----------



## T.D. (12/6/09)

clean brewer said:


> Does anyone user this Heat Tolerant Hose?(its under "Pumps, Racking, siphoning).. Food grade inner lining to +98 degrees and an ok price!!!!!



I reckon that stuff looks the goods. Have had my eye on it for a while. For transfer hoses its pretty hard to beat on specs and price.


----------



## drsmurto (12/6/09)

Got thru 2 buckets of popcorn watching this thread last night, gotta love cheap entertainment (and yes, i am easily amused).

Here's hoping it keeps going so i can duck out during the breaks in the footy tonight for more chuckles. :icon_cheers: 

BTW - i am making beer tomorrow :beerbang:


----------



## Batz (12/6/09)

Yep sure is going off, shows the true colours of some of the posters as well.

Batz


----------



## Scruffy (12/6/09)

Leigh said:


> Stuff...




Jeez mate, this is the internet.


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## warrenlw63 (12/6/09)

I wonder if we could garner a 10 page thread on why dogs lick their own balls? :blink: 

Warren -


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## drsmurto (12/6/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> I wonder if we could garner a 10 page thread on why dogs lick their own balls? :blink:
> 
> Warren -



With this lot, easily. h34r: 

FWIW - its cos they can.


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## warrenlw63 (12/6/09)

DrSmurto said:


> FWIW - its cos they can.



All I can say is Arf! Arf! Arf! their luck. :lol: 

{poor attempt at humour}

Warren -


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## captaincleanoff (12/6/09)

BeerFingers said:


>



they're HOES, not HOSE!


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## muckey (12/6/09)

captaincleanoff said:


> they're HOES, not HOSE!




so now the discussion has turned to hosery. Strange mob round here h34r:


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## alowen474 (12/6/09)

Muckey said:


> so now the discussion has turned to hosery. Strange mob round here h34r:


Maybe its her hosery that had the infection??


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## eamonnfoley (12/6/09)

Leigh said:


> What made me laugh the most Pat is that you are the one who recommends using material that is NOT rated for food and has better degradation properties than said PVC...in your BIAB.
> 
> Now before some idiot mis-represents what I am saying, I am not saying that BIAB does not work or is somehow dangerous, what I am saying is you can't argue one way and then be a complete hypocrite on a similar but different topic!
> 
> ...



I didn't kill the PVC - that is complete nonsense and your scraping the barrel even suggesting it. It wasn't overly concerntrated (couple of teaspoons in a sink of water) and I gave it a good rinse after with warm water. If it was that easy to kill equipment while cleaning it, hombrewers worldwide would be in all sorts of trouble.

You seem to have your own agenda for defending the hose - I dont think you need to.

I've made a choice based on what has solved my problem, and what I believe to be an unsuitable product for boiling wort. Wayne has said he only suggests (not advertises) it can be used for 100C wort, as everyone agrees it is under-rated. 

There is no dispute silicon is a superior product - but people have the choice to use PVC, but they should know there are potential risks (if not conclusive).

That is all.


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## T.D. (12/6/09)

Muckey said:


> so now the discussion has turned to hosery. Strange mob round here h34r:


 That picture is the best thing that ever happened to this thread. 

The best thing that's happened to this whole site for a while actually!


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## QldKev (12/6/09)

This discussion should go onto youTUBE :beer: 

mmm, where's my popcorn


QldKev


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## Leigh (12/6/09)

I don't have an agenda mate, but when only half the story gets put up it leaves a big hole for questions...just filling the hole. If using a slightly louder tone gets the response, well I'll use it!

It's easy to kill any piece of equipment. Just wanted to see if you had done it, as if you had, there would be others that might be too. Out of interest, how long did you leave the hose in the water, both in the percarb and the rinse...and then how warm is warm?...because you still didn't answer that.

You say I have an agenda...your evasiveness in responding (including claiming you'd said it earlier) and others defence that the dead hose is the issue suggests there is an agenda the other way...think about it...so don't go finger pointing.


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## Steve (12/6/09)

Leigh said:


> ...your evasiveness in responding



maybe because he's over it?


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## Scruffy (12/6/09)

I'm afraid it's not that simple now foles...

Poly (vinyl chloride) is a rigid polymer, therefore in your home-brew application it must be compounded with plasticizing agents. The plasticizers minimize dipolar interactions, which exist between the polymer's chains, promoting their mobility (making the pipe bendy). 
Had you considered characterising the properties of say, your pipe's dominant plasticizing agent: di(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate by for example, viscosimetric analysis or even simple infrared spectroscopy - i doubt it.

I suspect degradation due to gamma radiation...

Now... a little thought before you start typing on the internet again...


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## domonsura (12/6/09)

foles said:


> I didn't kill the PVC - that is complete nonsense and your scraping the barrel even suggesting it. It wasn't overly concerntrated (couple of teaspoons in a sink of water) and I gave it a good rinse after with warm water. If it was that easy to kill equipment while cleaning it, hombrewers worldwide would be in all sorts of trouble.
> 
> You seem to have your own agenda for defending the hose - I dont think you need to.
> 
> ...



NO. Wayne does not suggest anything of the sort at all. Wayne has simply _related_ that he and a defineable number of other brewers _have used and are using_ this hosing outside rating without experiencing the issues you have experienced or anything like them, therefore I believe - as I am fully entitled to - that there MAY be some other reason for the issues. Simple as that. There is a bloody big difference between me suggesting that others _should _do it, and me relating that I _have _done it.


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## eamonnfoley (12/6/09)

Leigh said:


> I don't have an agenda mate, but when only half the story gets put up it leaves a big hole for questions...just filling the hole. If using a slightly louder tone gets the response, well I'll use it!
> 
> It's easy to kill any piece of equipment. Just wanted to see if you had done it, as if you had, there would be others that might be too. Out of interest, how long did you leave the hose in the water, both in the percarb and the rinse...and then how warm is warm?...because you still didn't answer that.
> 
> You say I have an agenda...your evasiveness in responding (including claiming you'd said it earlier) and others defence that the dead hose is the issue suggests there is an agenda the other way...think about it...so don't go finger pointing.



It would have been a quick soak in percarb, a few minutes, and a repeated rinse for a few minutes as well. nothing outrageous. 

I feel like I am on trial for the murder of a hose. Although it would probably be manslaughter.

"It was Foles, in the garage, with the sodium percarbonate"


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## T.D. (12/6/09)

Scruffy said:


> I'm afraid it's not that simple now foles...
> 
> Poly (vinyl chloride) is a rigid polymer, therefore in your home-brew application it must be compounded with plasticizing agents. The plasticizers minimize dipolar interactions, which exist between the polymer's chains, promoting their mobility (making the pipe bendy).
> Had you considered characterising the properties of say, your pipe's dominant plasticizing agent: di(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate by for example, viscosimetric analysis or even simple infrared spectroscopy - i doubt it.
> ...



Wouldn't all you guys be better off just getting your dongers out and measuring them against each other...? Seems like a far simpler way to solve this whole thing.


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## domonsura (12/6/09)

Can I make a suggestion Foles, that (if you haven't already) - some starsan would be a great investment to use as a sanitiser instead of sodium percarbonate. Regardless of the hose you are using


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## Leigh (12/6/09)

Steve said:


> maybe because he's over it?



To be honest, I just about am...but it does beg the question, why post if your not prepared to answer reasonable questions?

People love to blame equipment, but process is more important! Nobody has eliminated process...


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## muckey (12/6/09)

T.D. said:


> Wouldn't all you guys be better off just getting your dongers out and measuring them against each other...? Seems like a far simpler way to solve this whole thing.




now the arguement goes from PVC vs silicone to PVC vs silicone vs latex h34r:


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## Scruffy (12/6/09)

T.D. said:


> Wouldn't all you guys be better off just getting your dongers out and measuring them against each other...? Seems like a far simpler way to solve this whole thing.



Some people on here got quite animated.

Some people on here eulogised and spouted their ejaculate.

Some people were offended.

Some were amused.

The main point I think most people are nefariously avoiding here is that our mate foles has sussed the problem and is brewing beer that he can drink...

Until it happens again.

And blames the shopkeeper...

Oh bugger, I've started again...

carry on...


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## T.D. (12/6/09)

domonsura said:


> Can I make a suggestion Foles, that (if you haven't already) - some starsan would be a great investment to use as a sanitiser instead of sodium percarbonate. Regardless of the hose you are using



I agree, whether it had anything to do with the hose issue or not, there are definitely better satitisers out there than sodium percarbonate. I use iodophor mostly. Used it for years and can't fault it.


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## eamonnfoley (12/6/09)

domonsura said:


> NO. Wayne does not suggest anything of the sort at all. Wayne has simply _related_ that he and a defineable number of other brewers _have used and are using_ this hosing outside rating without experiencing the issues you have experienced or anything like them, therefore I believe - as I am fully entitled to - that there MAY be some other reason for the issues. Simple as that. There is a bloody big difference between me suggesting that others _should _do it, and me relating that I _have _done it.



Well when I bought the brewpot, burner, gear etc. (which is all fantastic by the way, apart from the obvious issue) I asked for hose for transfering hot wort from the brewpot to the plate chiller. And the helical wound hose was what was offered to me. Simple as that. 

Without trying put words in your mouth - you sold me the hose for that purpose. 

And you are right, there may be another reason for my issues - nothing is 100% conclusive. But I've only iterated that I would prefer to take the risk out of my system, because it definitely looks like the hose was involved. I wouldnt have mentioned it - until I found out that the hose is not food grade at 100C. I dont have the time to drill even further into the issue to get a cast iron conclusion on the matter - its not worth my effort, and a hose is relatively inexpensive item to replace. I promise you - that if the problem reoccurs with the silicon hose (or if i kill it too :icon_cheers: ), I will let everyone know.


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## T.D. (12/6/09)

Scruffy said:


> The main point I think most people are nefariously avoiding here is that our mate foles has sussed the problem and is brewing beer that he can drink...



:beer: And on that note, is there a mod around here somewhere who can close this thread?!?!?!


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## eamonnfoley (12/6/09)

domonsura said:


> Can I make a suggestion Foles, that (if you haven't already) - some starsan would be a great investment to use as a sanitiser instead of sodium percarbonate. Regardless of the hose you are using



Will get some on the weekend.


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## jonocarroll (12/6/09)

foles said:


> And you are right, there may be another reason for my issues - nothing is 100% conclusive. But I've only iterated that I would prefer to take the risk out of my system, because it definitely looks like the hose was involved.


You have clearly missed the point of all this response - we are trying to help you locate the _actual_ risk in your system, be it the hose or otherwise, and rather than cooperating, you are sticking your head in the sand and saying "it's just the hose". If it does happen to be something else (which many people seem to think is likely) you are up the proverbial.



foles said:


> I dont have the time to drill even further into the issue to get a cast iron conclusion on the matter - its not worth my effort


So give up, stop posting, and make some beer (and hope to high heaven that it's not tainted).



foles said:


> I promise you - that if the problem reoccurs with the silicon hose (or if i kill it too :icon_cheers: ), *I will let everyone know.*


I would have to advise that doing so would be a very bad idea, and that you won't be given many helpful replies from anyone who was trying to help you out in this thread. The fonts don't go large enough for the 'I told you so' that would follow.

I say good day to you, sir.


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## Leigh (12/6/09)

foles said:


> Well when I bought the brewpot, burner, gear etc. (which is all fantastic by the way, apart from the obvious issue) I asked for hose for transfering hot wort from the brewpot to the plate chiller. And the helical wound hose was what was offered to me. Simple as that.
> 
> Without trying put words in your mouth - you sold me the hose for that purpose.
> 
> And you are right, there may be another reason for my issues - nothing is 100% conclusive. But I've only iterated that I would prefer to take the risk out of my system, because it definitely looks like the hose was involved. I wouldnt have mentioned it - until I found out that the hose is not food grade at 100C. I dont have the time to drill even further into the issue to get a cast iron conclusion on the matter - its not worth my effort, and a hose is relatively inexpensive item to replace. I promise you - that if the problem reoccurs with the silicon hose (or if i kill it too :icon_cheers: ), I will let everyone know.



Cheers mate. Sounds good...I'll sit back and wait for that thread, but hopefully it never comes. :icon_chickcheers:


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## MartinS (12/6/09)

Okay, so PP says, "Be careful with PVC hose, as it's only rated food-grade to 65c." (paraphrasing here).

Domonsura says, "The hose is rated to 65c, beyond that I make no guarantees, and your mileage may vary." (again, paraphrasing).

This is the longest thread I've ever seen where everyone agrees .


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## eamonnfoley (12/6/09)

QuantumBrewer said:


> You have clearly missed the point of all this response - we are trying to help you locate the _actual_ risk in your system, be it the hose or otherwise, and rather than cooperating, you are sticking your head in the sand and saying "it's just the hose". If it does happen to be something else (which many people seem to think is likely) you are up the proverbial.



I would love to stop posting, but it is comments like this that aren't helping the situation. What part of "under rated" do you not understand? If that is not a risk what is? By changing that ONE suspect item, my problems are fixed. What do you suggest I do? Buy another bit of helical hose and try again? Not when I can use silicon.

Your doing your best to cloud the issue.


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## jonocarroll (12/6/09)

foles said:


> I would love to stop posting, but it is comments like this that aren't helping the situation. What part of "under rated" do you not understand? If that is not a risk what is? By changing that ONE suspect item, my problems are fixed. What do you suggest I do? Buy another bit of helical hose and try again? Not when I can use silicon.






Please feel free to replace everyone's esky mash-tuns. They are clearly suspect, and thus must be the cause of all off-flavours, no matter what is actually wrong with them, or how broken they might be.


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## browndog (12/6/09)

Leigh said:


> Sticks and stones buddy.
> 
> Go and stick your head back in the sand.
> 
> ...



And just because no one else who uses this hose has had the problem has no more scientific basis than Foles or PP's argument. The OP was just warning people to be careful, not demanding everyone who uses vinyl bin it and buy silicone. However you and QB decided to take it to another level. Lethal Corpses post was spot on, I didn't see any of you with any smart comebacks against it though hey! 
If you must know, I use the mankiest piece of hose going to transfer wort from the kettle to cube/fermenter, I don't wash it, it gets a rinse in some cold water to get the wort out and that's it till the next brew and you know why I don't worry? it is because 90C+ wort travelling though it will kill any bug that could infect the wort so IMHO it is not an infection issue. From what Foles said his cleaning regime is not the problem either and what does that leave........
You have two experienced brewers saying they could smell a strong plastic smell from the hose, the beer tasted of the same, he changed the hose and the problem went away and yet you want to argue that it's not the hoses fault? Funny, I have not heard any of the more experienced brewers agreeing with you mate, but keep it up, your giving me a good laugh.

cheers

Browndog

edit :spelling


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## Darren (12/6/09)

Has anyone actually boiled a piece of this hose and tasted the water as Gryphon suggested a few pages back?
Sounds like a simple but definative experiment to me.

cheers

Darren


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## jimmyjack (12/6/09)

> Does anyone user this Heat Tolerant Hose?(its under "Pumps, Racking, siphoning).. Food grade inner lining to +98 degrees and an ok price!!!!!



I use this type of hose and it works well for me. I recirculate with a HERMS HE and have never experienced any bad flavours or smells. It is rather inflexible unlike Silicone hose.

Cheers, 

JJ


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## Renegade (12/6/09)

10 pages dedicated to a damn tube. 

Can you frame this hose and post it on E-Bay. 

A Star is Born.


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## muckey (12/6/09)

Renegade said:


> 10 pages dedicated to a damn tube.
> 
> Can you frame this hose and post it on E-Bay.
> 
> A Star is Born.




tie a rope round it and hang it in a wardrobe h34r:


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## chappo1970 (12/6/09)

I can't believe this crap went 10 friggin pages and still nothing resolved FFS.... h34r:


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/6/09)

browndog said:


> And just because no one else who uses this hose has had the problem has no more scientific basis than Foles or PP's argument. The OP was just warning people to be careful, not demanding everyone who uses vinyl bin it and buy silicone. However you and QB decided to take it to another level. Lethal Corpses post was spot on, I didn't see any of you with any smart comebacks against it though hey!
> If you must know, I use the mankiest piece of hose going to transfer wort from the kettle to cube/fermenter, I don't wash it, it gets a rinse in some cold water to get the wort out and that's it till the next brew and you know why I don't worry? it is because 90C+ wort travelling though it will kill any bug that could infect the wort so IMHO it is not an infection issue. From what Foles said his cleaning regime is not the problem either and what does that leave........
> You have two experienced brewers saying they could smell a strong plastic smell from the hose, the beer tasted of the same, he changed the hose and the problem went away and yet you want to argue that it's not the hoses fault? Funny, I have not heard any of the more experienced brewers agreeing with you mate, but keep it up, your giving me a good laugh.
> 
> ...


You have explained it in a simple to understand logical way.I dip my hat to you.
GB


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## Leigh (12/6/09)

browndog said:


> And just because no one else who uses this hose has had the problem has no more scientific basis than Foles or PP's argument. The OP was just warning people to be careful, not demanding everyone who uses vinyl bin it and buy silicone. However you and QB decided to take it to another level. Lethal Corpses post was spot on, I didn't see any of you with any smart comebacks against it though hey!
> If you must know, I use the mankiest piece of hose going to transfer wort from the kettle to cube/fermenter, I don't wash it, it gets a rinse in some cold water to get the wort out and that's it till the next brew and you know why I don't worry? it is because 90C+ wort travelling though it will kill any bug that could infect the wort so IMHO it is not an infection issue. From what Foles said his cleaning regime is not the problem either and what does that leave........
> You have two experienced brewers saying they could smell a strong plastic smell from the hose, the beer tasted of the same, he changed the hose and the problem went away and yet you want to argue that it's not the hoses fault? Funny, I have not heard any of the more experienced brewers agreeing with you mate, but keep it up, your giving me a good laugh.
> 
> ...



Nope, nope, nope and nope...wow people really do read what they want around here don't they...

I never said it wasn't the hose.

I never doubted the smell coming from the hose.

I never said it had to be sanitised. 

BUT Foles had to have done SOMETHING to the hose PRIOR to use! It is extremely unlikely that the PVC hose leached enough plasticiser and monomer in the 5-10 minutes it took to drain the kettle...10 years in the lab playing with this stuff tells me this!

Where I was driving is that I can kill any PVC hose and make it leach plasticiser and monomer in under an hour at room temperature with basic stuff in any brewery (and silicon a bit longer)...what I was trying to ascertain in an unbiased manner was whether Foles had actually done this...unfortunately he never answered all of my questions. If Foles has done it with the PVC, and the instant he used it he could taste the result (remember he replaced the PVC hose with new hose) then he will in all likelihood kill the silicon (but it will take a little longer) unless he has or will change something else! What that is is the real issue!

THIS IS ABOUT PROCESS!

BUT I now understand the nature of the all knowing _master_ brewers who inhabit this forum who know so much that there posts should never be questioned! So laughable!

...and here I thought this forum was about improving technique, equipment, processes etc and being able to discuss these...so silly of me!


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## paulwolf350 (12/6/09)

Chappo said:


> I can't believe this crap went 10 friggin pages and still nothing resolved FFS.... h34r:



Maybe they need to go through it all again then chappo, surely we will get it after 20 pages

Paul


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## lczaban (12/6/09)

Chappo said:


> I can't believe this crap went 10 friggin pages and still nothing resolved FFS.... h34r:



At times like these I am reminded of the eternal words of Springfield Police Chief Wiggum - "If it feels good, do it!"

And the follow up paraphrase...

"Chappo - don't schnap my undies...".

h34r: 

Off topic somewhat, but it is good that Foles got his problem solved and that PP has prompted some intense debate about some of the potential underlying issues. From what I can tell no-one has come up with a firm scientific argument against using PVC tubing (apart from the whole "the manufacturers haven't designed the tube for this purpose"), and given the anecdotal evidence from a lot of PVC users here stating they haven't had any problems it's hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. I think it is a case of being aware of this problem and a potential remedy if you come across a similar problem, and using whatever product you feel comfortable using for whatever justification you come up with.

It's also good to see that Foles persisted in trying to solve his problem through thick and thin and has come out brewing good beer again. Well done for sticking at it! :beer: 
And for those who are unsure about which way they go in terms of which hose type they use for transferring hort wort, remember the eternal words of Chief Wiggum! :icon_cheers:


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## Screwtop (12/6/09)

T.D. said:


> :beer: And on that note, is there a mod around here somewhere who can close this thread?!?!?!




Yeah lock it up tight as a drum. E'body knows he done kilt dem Hoes :lol:

Screwy


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## paulwolf350 (12/6/09)

yep it was the hose alright

Paul




edit : need to get to 11 pages before it gets locked


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## chappo1970 (12/6/09)

Silicon or pvc?







OR






This will get rid of this thread for sure

Chappo :icon_cheers:

Edit: Bonus cameltoe!!!! :icon_drool2:


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## paulwolf350 (12/6/09)

you did it chappo, 11 pages, I think the silicone might be best but I am biassed..............................I love boobies

Paul


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## Steve (12/6/09)

paulwolf350 said:


> you did it chappo, 11 pages, I think the silicone might be best but I am biassed..............................I love boobies
> 
> Paul



Holy moly.....all I can say is onya PP for the larfs and Chappo I want to know where the got the latex chick from?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (12/6/09)

Leigh said:


> Nope, nope, nope and nope...wow people really do read what they want around here don't they...
> 
> I never said it wasn't the hose.
> 
> ...


NO its about a hose thats not suitable for what it was used for.Well you are the self confessed "know it all expert "on this type of thing, "ten years playing with the stuff",What qualifications do you have? You have challenged every thing people have put forward. If you are the expert why havent you offered your expertise to test the said hose? Put up or shut up.I like others would like to see the proof of your expertise.I am quite prepared to stand corrected.I like to learn from my ignorance.
GB


----------



## Leigh (12/6/09)

All is not wasted guys, I learnt that I have to do more brewing to understand the chemistry of something I played with for 10 years. Apparently science is different in a brewery...now that conclusion could have taken 20 pages if I wasn't so perceptive! LMAO

Just wish I was still working there, then I could have got the boss to pay!


----------



## Leigh (12/6/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> NO its about a hose thats not suitable for what it was used for.Well you are the self confessed "know it all expert "on this type of thing, "ten years playing with the stuff",What qualifications do you have? You have challenged every thing people have put forward. If you are the expert why havent you offered your expertise to test the said hose? Put up or shut up.I like others would like to see the proof of your expertise.I am quite prepared to stand corrected.I like to learn from my ignorance.
> GB



Love the defeatist "put up or shut up" lines...

So now I have to prove my qualifications. LOL Next you'll want proof that they are my qualifications. You are funny!


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## browndog (12/6/09)

> THIS IS ABOUT PROCESS!
> 
> BUT I now understand the nature of the all knowing master brewers who inhabit this forum who know so much that there posts should never be questioned! So laughable!
> 
> ...and here I thought this forum was about improving technique, equipment, processes etc and being able to discuss these...so silly of me!



It is, unfortunately for you, your arguments are piss weak and go against common sense. Let's see if Foles problem comes back with the new hose. I bet you a tenner it does not.

cheers

Browndog


----------



## eamonnfoley (12/6/09)

browndog said:


> It is, unfortunately for you, your arguments are piss weak and go against common sense. Let's see if Foles problem comes back with the new hose. I bet you a tenner it does not.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Browndog



Well the fresh APA in my hand seems to indicate that the problem is behind me :icon_chickcheers:


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## AndrewQLD (12/6/09)

This is going nowhere and getting ridiculous.

Topic closed


----------

