# extracts/kits always too sweet tasting



## pablo_h (27/1/16)

I usually run with half dextrose half malt in my kits. Main reason being I don't like high hopped beers (prefer coopers ales, wheat beers, stouts, porters etc), so I can't counter malt sweetness with added hop bitterness. Other reasons are of course the kit manufacturers don't prehop their kits for someone chucking in 1kg LDME. They are based on k+k, or "brew enhancers" at most. 
Even adding some amount of hops and doing a boil hasn't helped much. It just comes out too sweet! So in goes the dextrose to replace malt 

Anyway, is it just me? I've been researching more and more and come across some brewing info which stated extracts have a higher amount of non-fermentable sugars in the wort than AG worts.
If so that explains a lot to me. They also said if steeping some grain to add, the enzymes from that can help breakdown these non fermentable sugars to help fix the problem. Anyone tried this, heard/read this?
I'm still deciding on going all extract and dealing with this problem, The other option is sticking with prebittered kits like using coopers draught for LME and treating it like it's unhopped LME in my calculations for a full plain extract brew using only DME/LME. E: skipping the 60min bittering hopped boil because that makes no sense with extracts, but doing a 15-10min and/or 1min/flameout hop additions for flavour and aroma

E: Or if doing a half batch, - by that I mean full kit but only half the water so it's like a 23L toucan in flavour/bitterness etc - I can add ldme for sweetness and bring ABV up, and play around with the amount of DME for sweetness to balance a kit hopped/bittered for 23L, or use yeasts with lower attenuation to leave more of this non fermentable sugars in extracts/kits if it's true.


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## mr_wibble (28/1/16)

Why don't you have a go at using only non-hopped extract, then you can properly manage the bitterness yourself.

I've never seen a reason to use pre-hopped extract - maybe I'm a bit of a control-freak. I feel like some of my flexibility and choice has been taken away before the start. It's really easy to boil a bunch of hops in your wort, and allows full control over the bitterness. You don't have to boil the hops in all the wort if that's a problem - boil them separately, or look-up how to do it in a coffee plunger. Or do boil everything, but in a 1/2 or 1/4 batch size.

Malt extracts are engineered to have a specific fermentation profile, and some are more fermentable than others. But the problem you're describing (assuming a full fermentation) is the _balance_ of the bitterness. You could try adding some pre-isomerised hop oil (e.g.: http://www.morebeer.com/products/isohop-bitterness-extract-1-oz.html ) to the finished batch to balance it out. Some hop oils require boiling, so be careful what you buy if going down that route. 

You say: "I don't like high hopped beers" - but a beer can have a strong hop presence without being bitter. It just depends on how long the hops are boiled for. As an extreme example, if you put all your hops in the last 5 minutes of the boil, it would come out very "hoppy" (aroma wise), but since the alpha acids in the hops did not have time to isomerise (which allows them to dissolve into the wort), the bitterness would be low.


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## pablo_h (28/1/16)

Mr Wibble said:


> Why don't you have a go at using only non-hopped extract, then you can properly manage the bitterness yourself.


 I have. That's the point, all malt extract brews always end up too sweet for me regardless of hopping if I want to keep them down to a level I like. EG it's like cooking. I could add 1 Tbsp vinegar, or fish sauce or whatever, "balance" that with 1 tsp sugar, but there's no coming back from 1/4 cup of vinegar. You could attempt to "balance" it with sugar, but it's all off and too much of both.
I don't have a sweet tooth at all, so I just hate it and don't like introducing bitterness to fix it and having it strong overall in flavours to "balance" it.
E: OK, I'm going on about sweetness and malt extract, but comparing it to vinegar in cooking that needs sugar to balance - ie the opposite, but I hope people get my meaning.

I recently did two coopers kits (lager brewed as an ale). One had 500g LMDE, 500g dex, it finished at 1010 and tastes sweet to me. The other had 400g LDME, 500g dex, finished at 1008. It's drier tasting, less sweet and a better beer.
Of course it isn't "real beer", but that's the point I'm making in the kit/extract subforum. Is kit/extract malt sweeter than beer should be in the first place because of the process extracts go through - ie do they contain more un-fermentable sugars than AG beer does?
I once made a beer years ago all extract and it was so sweet it was undrinkable.
I have a serious unsweet tooth, a couple of years ago I tried to quit smoking by using e-cigs (I was a bit more involved that that because I ended up with rebuildable atomizers/drippers etc), but I didn't like many "e-juices" because I found them too sweet as well.


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## Rocker1986 (28/1/16)

The amount of unfermentables in AG beer differs depending on the mash itself. There's no "kit beers contain more unfermentables than AG beers" standard. Besides that, unfermentables don't necessarily contribute to sweetness, they contribute to body and mouthfeel.

This all sounds a bit weird... you don't like the sweetness, adding bitterness to balance is about the only way to fix the problem yet you don't want to do this? It doesn't seem like you have much choice to me. It also doesn't mean you have to go way over the top with bitterness, but just add enough extra to counter the sweetness. The lager kit you reference is not high in bitterness anyway, so that would explain that one turning out a bit sweet.

Although do have a bit of a sweet tooth, I don't like overly sweet beers either, so I simply brew them with an amount of bitterness that nicely counters it to my taste and the beers end up well balanced in the end. Not too sweet, not too bitter.


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## manticle (28/1/16)

He's talking about malt extract versus mashed grain and is correct about higher finishing gravity and sweetness in extract brews.
From memory, it is related to free amino nitrogen levels.

@pablo - There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a portion of dex in a malt extract brew if you find all ME finishes too sweet and thick.
Control the balance to get the beer you want.
Are you unhappy with how your ME + dex beers are turning out?

Also make sure you pitch enough healthy yeast and use a decent yeast nutrient.


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## Reman (28/1/16)

manticle said:


> He's talking about malt extract versus mashed grain and is correct about higher finishing gravity and sweetness in extract brews.
> From memory, it is related to free amino nitrogen levels.
> Also make sure you pitch enough healthy yeast and use a decent yeast nutrient.


Definitely try adding a healthy dose of yeast nutrient.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/malt-extract-and-beer-kits/shopping-for-extracts

Which yeast are you using? It may help to use a more highly attenuating one.


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## Jack of all biers (28/1/16)

+1 to manticle. I think the extra sweetness also has to do with caramelisation of the sugars when reducing to a syrup. Have you had the same issue with fresh wort kits?


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## simplefisherman (28/1/16)

Maybe try adding a dry enzyme to help the yeast break up the long chain sugars?


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## warra48 (28/1/16)

The mash for malt extract is also mashed at a higher temperature than we normally do for an AG mash.
They can be mashed at 70ºC or even higher.
The reason is to ensure the final beer has some body and maltiness to counter the traditional kilo of sugar used along with the can.

Once you add things in place of the kilo of sugar, then yes, you guessed it, your unfermentables go up, and you end up with a sweeter beer.

If the OP was to use all dextrose as his/her addition rather than 50/50 dextrose/malt the final beer will be less sweet. His/her post already contains the answer. Use all dextrose as the addition. Or he/she can take a punt and add an enzyme to ferment it our further, but I personally wouldn't go down that path.


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## Coodgee (28/1/16)

I would say the simple solution is just to use dextrose instead of malt extract if you prefer that flavour.


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## pcmfisher (28/1/16)

Pablo, I know the sweetness you are talking about and I also do not like it.

Really as mentioned there is only two things you can do.
Either balance out with bitterness which doesn't work well if you want a low bittered easy drinker.

Or sub some malt for dextrose.

I do a lot of extract brews to about 30 ibu and find them too sweet with all malt. My standard base is 1.5kg liquid malt, 700g dry malt and about 600g dex in 21 litres which finishes at about 1010 ish.

If I make a less bitter beer I sometimes drop the dry malt to 500g and up the dex to 1kg. 
I generally use US05 which is a fairly good attenuating yeast.

Also depends on which liquid malt you use. I use coopers but I think briess is more fermentable.


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## Dae Tripper (28/1/16)

Try a different yeast an keep the temperature in its comfort range. I am a big fan of Danstar Belle Sasion. It eats more sugars than most.


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## pablo_h (28/1/16)

manticle said:


> Are you unhappy with how your ME + dex beers are turning out?
> 
> Also make sure you pitch enough healthy yeast and use a decent yeast nutrient.


Not unhappy, but want to move from the traditional old coopers range. I could buy their upper/new range, but they're a bit of a rip off at over $20 for the premium ones compared to buying LME or DME and following a recipe IMHO, and following a recipe gives me more control as I don't know what is exactly in the kits anyway.*
But here's the problem with all extract recipes for me, sweetness.
Like I said before, beside using half dex, maybe I should use the cheap lager or draught kit and treat that as pale malt base LME, add some more bittering hops like it was non hopped, which would allow me to use all malt for the rest of the recipe.

I dunno, I just started this topic to see if I was crazy or whether extract brews are in fact sweeter. If that's the case then maybe when I come across ag recipes or extract recipes that were converted from AG, I know before starting that they're going to be sweet tasting, and therefore make adjustments before I start (like extra bittering hops or use a pre-bittered coopers lager/draught kit for the base LME.)

*e: second point is steeping some grain or buying enzymes may help break down the sweet malt extract unfermentables?


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## manticle (28/1/16)

You can do unhopped extract, keep the IBU where you want and use some dex as well to balance. No need to use cheap shit - use some quality briess extract that has been made for brewers.


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## manticle (28/1/16)

And not crazy, no.


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## pablo_h (28/1/16)

I've been looking into this problem further. Seems using a far bit of dextrse can cause this problem because yeast don't power through the malt so easily. I think that is a related problem for one batch I did with 500g ldne and 500g dex when I made a starter using dex (which is a big no no). Plus also having lots of stuck at 1020 brews in the past when using all dex.

Been looking into enzymes, "pilsner enzyme" "low carb enzyme" etc and found this interesting read http://www.brewery.org/brewery/library/enzymes595.html


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## manticle (28/1/16)

But aren't you mostly experiencing this when using all malt as opposed to some dex?


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## Mattrox (28/1/16)

pablo_h said:


> I've been looking into this problem further. Seems using a far bit of dextrse can cause this problem because yeast don't power through the malt so easily. I think that is a related problem for one batch I did with 500g ldne and 500g dex when I made a starter using dex (which is a big no no). Plus also having lots of stuck at 1020 brews in the past when using all dex.
> 
> Been looking into enzymes, "pilsner enzyme" "low carb enzyme" etc and found this interesting read http://www.brewery.org/brewery/library/enzymes595.html


I think stuck brews with lots of residual sugar is more of an issue than kits or LDM or Dex. I used European Lager can with 1.5kg of LDM had it finish below 1.009 (I'll have to check my notes) and the last think you would call it was sweet.


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## pablo_h (28/1/16)

manticle said:


> But aren't you mostly experiencing this when using all malt as opposed to some dex?


It was the worst when trying all malt in the past.
The dex thing was just an interesting point made in that link that could explain some stuck brews in the past.
It's just a side note.
For the brews not stuck and ferment normally, brews made with all malt extract do still taste too sweet to me even when finishing at 1010 SG..


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## Mattrox (28/1/16)

pablo_h said:


> I've been looking into this problem further. Seems using a far bit of dextrse can cause this problem because yeast don't power through the malt so easily. I think that is a related problem for one batch I did with 500g ldne and 500g dex when I made a starter using dex (which is a big no no). Plus also having lots of stuck at 1020 brews in the past when using all dex.
> 
> Been looking into enzymes, "pilsner enzyme" "low carb enzyme" etc and found this interesting read http://www.brewery.org/brewery/library/enzymes595.html


Ok, so I broke out the spreadsheet, and it doesn't lie.

If you use 1 can and 500g LDME and 500g Dex on 23 L at 75% attenuation you should get 1.008. I have got 75% with Windsor when I have used it. When I used US05, Nottingham or BRY 97 I get around 81% attenuation using kits. This takes it to 1.006. So at 1.010 (unless BE or maltodextrin is used) it is not fully attenuated and will have some residual sweetness. At 75% and 1.008 it will probably have some residual sweetness or maltiness that might get perceived as sweetness.

If you use 1kg of dex you should get around 1.004 with US05 etc 

If you use 400g of Malt and 500g of dex you should get around 1.006, so 1.008 isn't too far out of the range. 

I suspect that you are not attenuating fully. Look at your yeast. Either your yeast choice, it's age from the LHBS, how you pitch your yeast or temperature or more likely a combination.


As I said, I have used 1.5kg of Malt with a can, on another occasion a can plus 1.7kg of unhooped malt (black rock) and not got the residual sweetness you describe. Of course your taste bud and mine will perceive flavour differently, but the FG's you have been getting line up with your observations of the sweetness.


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## manticle (28/1/16)

I've come across that idea too and certainly overloading a high gravity brew with too much dex or sucrose too early can result in yeast failing to deal with malt successfully but from experience I can guarantee using some dex or doing a straight kk should not see a stalled ferment.

Healthy, sufficient yeast is a concept to which I keep returning.


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## burrster (28/1/16)

The possible answers to your issue are all out there as far as I understand.
Use Part dextrose - given the beer less body and lower FG over all malt. I personally use this method.
Use a low carb enzyme - it will allow the yeast to eat more of the residual sugars giving lower FG and less sweetness.
Increase Bitterness to mask the sweetness. You might be surprised, that you might like the increased bitterness, as long as its balanced, and not over done.
Ensuring healthly sufficient yeast.
A combination of any or all of the above, with the healthy yeast being non optional!
All you have to do now is experiment!


Good luck


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## pablo_h (5/2/16)

I think the part of the reason is my palette. When I quit brewing in 2009 I switched to chilli growing as a hobby, and herbs, and also cooking by seasoning food properly IMO- ie salt, spices (and a lot of chilli!).
Never been one for desserts, I would be huge and even fatter if I liked them! I don't like sweet foods or drinks much. For example when I mentioned I hated most ecig stuff because it was too sweet, I don't like sweet stuff much at all.

I bought some coopers pale ale last week for yeast, and it may have been I had to drink it without yeast, or they changed the recipe (reading clone topics people have said they used to have sugar but switched to an all malt recipe recently - plus upped the price and used fancier bottles), but that coopers pale ale was way sweeter than my memory had thought it was)
OTOH, when I used the yeast for a starter, I tasted a bit from the LDME starter and it was as dry and yeasty as I want me my beers to be.
But yeah, take from this what you will, but I found bottled coopers pale ale too sweet.
In 2011 I used to drink a lot of coopers stout though, maybe I just need dark brews or become a hop head? 
E: Really though I just want a brew where the yeast shines over the malt, as drinking stout in summer is not a sane option, and I'm not a hop head (was drinking APAs and IPAs as soon as micros sold them in WA, and behind the hops is a cloying sweetness Ids rather do without). I wish I could brew an english style bitter; low on the hops but still not sweet...


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## manticle (5/2/16)

Saison


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## Dae Tripper (5/2/16)

Dae Tripper said:


> Try a different yeast an keep the temperature in its comfort range. I am a big fan of Danstar Belle Sasion. It eats more sugars than most.


Said that one already. No one cared. The yeast is great for a dryer beer.


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## manticle (5/2/16)

Said in direct response to this:





> E: Really though I just want a brew where the yeast shines over the malt,


 but you should never feel no-one cares.
We all care.

Deeply.


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## pablo_h (5/2/16)

Dae Tripper said:


> Said that one already. No one cared. The yeast is great for a dryer beer.


It was noted, but right now dealing with temp issues and transport.
At the moment only able to get to big-w/woolworths. I did go to a home brew store weeks ago for LDME and fermenter spares but those parts blew my budget so no money left over for yeast (3hrs return it took -2 buses and a bit of a walk each way)
Also dealing with babbys first temp control (I've been banned from filling the laundry sink and not too confident with brewing in a sink of water, or that sink in particular anyway). First few batches recently I did when we had a freak low temp ambient coming up, and I thought I could get away with it. I have 3 old fermenters so did them all simultaneously. But the temps rose during bottle conditioning and the kit yeast was doing me no favours - beer didn't come out so good.

Right now playing around with an old sleeping bag, some eskies and I've got enough empty juice/milk containers to start out in a freezer rotation. Of course i can only one run fermenter now, but doing a kit beer with coopers recultured yeast. If I can keep that cool over a heatwave without running the air con, then I've got something to build on and try other yeasts.
I'll definitely look into you saison recommendation then


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## manticle (5/2/16)

Saison also won't require the same level of temp control.

All your ingredients can be ordered online so you are never limited to big W or LHBS.


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## pablo_h (5/2/16)

My "LHBS" is brewmart, and while pretty hard to get to unless you have a car, and has an awful website, bad postage prices, the product range and prices can't be beat especially with grain, hops, yeast. I really need to get there in person so I can get some grain and LME too. Maybe in a few weeks I hope. Planning to buy 3kg LDME, 1.5kg wheat, 4kg MO grain, brown and crystal, and 100g packs of hops then. (E: I'm just saying the trip in a PITA and not much point unless stocking up enough to make the trip worthwhile) Likewise ordering so much/heavy, postage is expensive for over 5kg)

Been looking around for someplace else for yeast, most don't have the range, or charge a lot more, or don't offer express post. Beerbelly seems the best so far though after a lot of time looking up yeast (or ESB).
But screw Ahmed, auspost service and prices, and intentional slow boat delays he wants. It's still $10 to mail some yeast express from BB. So in the meantime I'm just waiting/doing what I can. "Perfect the process with cheaper ingredients so I don't screw up a brew again with more invested in ingredients and time" is what I'm currently thinking. E: Although many will say rubbish in is rubbish out and any money wasted on kits is just wasted as it's not beer. Blah blah etc etc (not saying you'll say that, but many want their 2c so beating them to it). Point is, temp control and sanitation is what I'm working on getting 100% right.


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## manticle (5/2/16)

Look at online brewing supplies (might be online brewing and distilling supplies): based in Perth (Bassendean from memory) so postage might be cheaper.

Otherwise bulk out your order with a few other things. Making good beer at a fraction of the price of storebought combined with the convenience of having the relevant bits laid at your door deserves more than bigw.


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## manticle (5/2/16)

Who's ahmed?


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## Mattrox (5/2/16)

manticle said:


> Who's ahmed?


Ahmed Fahuor head of Australia post.

Former head of NAB.


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## paulyman (5/2/16)

Mattrox said:


> Ahmed Fahuor head of Australia post.
> 
> Former head of NAB.


So that's why my banking experience has improved but my postal service has gone down hill. It all makes sense now...

Used to work for NAB under his reign. Quit when I was told by a manager to stop spending so much time on the phone helping customers, apparently I had products to sell...


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## manticle (5/2/16)

Mattrox said:


> Ahmed Fahuor head of Australia post.
> Former head of NAB.


Cheers


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## pablo_h (5/2/16)

manticle said:


> Look at online brewing supplies (might be online brewing and distilling supplies): based in Perth (Bassendean from memory) so postage might be cheaper.


Thanks for that, that looks like it used to be gryphon brewing going by their site.
I think I bought some stuff before from that guy, had a few beers with him and looked at his cool room back when I was a fridgey ~10 years ago.
I wondered what happened to him and if still in business. Needs some SEO that's for sure.


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## manticle (5/2/16)

Yeah nev from gryphon.
Brewmart looks alright too. Expensive yeast but good range.


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