# First Ag Biab



## Wonderwoman (20/5/09)

Hi all 

I felt the need to share with you my first AG brew. I don't think I can really offer any profound advice, but just maybe I can inspire some newbies who dream of doing AG but think they don't have (or can't get) the necessary equipment.

I used the BIAB method. I was lucky that my mum lent me her fowlers vacola sterilizer - basically a 30 L urn, so all I needed was a grain bag which I made myself for < $5. I wanted to do my first AG without spending too much just in case I decided it wasn't for me, so I was very lucky to get the urn for nothing. An urn or large pot can cost a bit, so if you can see if a friend will lend you one for you first brew so you don't have to outlay the cash.

The photos below tell the story...



the urn with BIAB bag fitted



grain added



mashing with the lid partially on and thermometer in the top



start of the boil. I don't have any photos of me removing the bag and rinsing the grain - I made quite a mess of this and certainly would have benefited from an extra pair of hands!



the boil with a hop bag suspended from a piece of wire (old clothes hanger)



I no chilled it (cube cost $15). This shows the transfer to fermenter ~24 hours after transferring the wort to the cube.



the wort was nicely aerated. The yeast was pitched and 24 hours later it's fermenting nicely.

I used Dr Smurto's golden ale recipe as is on recipeDB. OG 1040 - a bit low but I think not too bad for my first AG.

I will definitely do more AG brews. It's not any more difficult just time consuming.


Thanks heaps to everyone who posts on this site for giving me the information and inspiration I needed to do this!


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## RetsamHsam (20/5/09)

Hmm.. I like the old clothes hanger idea, I will have to steal that one!


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## Wonderwoman (20/5/09)

RetsamHsam said:


> Hmm.. I like the old clothes hanger idea, I will have to steal that one!



I'm glad to have helped...


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## crundle (20/5/09)

Great stuff!

Hope you will enjoy the good doctor's Golden Ale, it is a fantastic recipe, and one that many of us started AG with. You will get to know your system better as you go along, so if you feel you need to change anything in your process, just change one variable at a time to see what effect it has. Once again, congratulations for your first AG!

cheers,

Crundle


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## Phoney (21/5/09)

Good onya!

Ive got a couple of questions: (and maybe other people can answer these too!)

1. How did you keep the urn at 67C ? ie: Most urns keep water at boiling temp.
2. Did you do your boil in the urn or did you transfer to a pot?
3. How did transfer the hot wort from the pot/urn to the cube?


Cheers


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## reviled (21/5/09)

Ive got a question... How do I get my SWMBO to brew beer?


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## drtomc (21/5/09)

reviled said:


> Ive got a question... How do I get my SWMBO to brew beer?



What? And let her have all the fun? You're a generous man!

T.


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## manticle (21/5/09)

phoneyhuh said:


> 1. How did you keep the urn at 67C ? ie: Most urns keep water at boiling temp.




Most I've seen have settings and thermostats. I'm thinking of getting an urn for my next bit if brewing equipment for mashing.


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## Mantis (21/5/09)

Well done :icon_chickcheers:


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## Fents (21/5/09)

congrats! yea time consuming but how easy is it once you actually do it. so much more simpler than people make it out.


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## Wonderwoman (21/5/09)

phoneyhuh said:


> Good onya!
> 
> Ive got a couple of questions: (and maybe other people can answer these too!)
> 
> ...



1. I'm not sure about standard urns, but the Fowlers Vacola sterilizer I used has an adjustable temperature control, so I just had to play around with that to get it to stay at ~66oC. I was a bit concerned though that the temperature at the bottom (near the element) may actually have been much higher than where I was measuring at the top - so not sure how good my method was of measuring the temperature.

I've read that other people turn the urn on till the water is the desired temperature, then switch it off during the mash and wrap the urn in a blanket, doona etc to hold the temperature. Maybe that's because they don't have the variable temp control?

2. It was a "one pot" job.

3. I used some heavy duty tubing connected to the tap to transfer the hot wort to the cube. Sorry there were no photos of this because I was on my own at the time (my partner was still in bed alseep) and I needed both hands to manage the transfer. The tubing that I used was difficult to get on the tap because it was a bit too small and once stretched to fit, it kept slipping off the tap. The only hose clamp I had was too small, so I had to hold it on with my hand in an oven mitt... this is a perfect example of what happens when you don't plan ahead. I hadn't checked that my hosing would fit the tap prior to brew day and once the mash was in I was stuck using what I could find in the house.



reviled said:


> Ive got a question... How do I get my SWMBO to brew beer?



it probably helps if she like beer... :icon_cheers: 

but I dare say that if you've already set a precedence of it being a "blokey" thing to brew beer, then you've lost her forever


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## Cocko (21/5/09)

Well done WW! :beer: 

Wait till ya taste it!


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## drsmurto (21/5/09)

I use the same urn for my HLT. Only mine is in fahrenheit so its older than me.

Good job on the first AG and showing that it can be done without a huge outlay of cash. :super:


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## Phoney (21/5/09)

Thanks for that! 

one more question, how many litre is your urn?


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## Wonderwoman (21/5/09)

Dr Smurto - mine's in fahrenheit too. looks like they're identical models.

phoneyhuh - I didn't measure it accurately, but I think it's about 30 L


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## chappo1970 (21/5/09)

Congrats WW!!! Hugely impressed with your effort and tenacity to make it happen. Just make sure next time HWMBO is your hoisting and mashing b#tch.  

Cheers


Chappo


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## Wonderwoman (21/5/09)

Chappo said:


> Congrats WW!!! Hugely impressed with your effort and tenacity to make it happen. Just make sure next time HWMBO is your hoisting and mashing b#tch.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ...



Thanks. That's what I was counting on for the first brew, but he went back the bed, so I had to manage alone. At least now I know I can do it on my own, so I schedule my brewing when it suits me and not depend on someone else being around


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## brettprevans (21/5/09)

WW - how big is your cube and where did you get it from? I could use some more no-chill cubes


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## Wonderwoman (21/5/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> WW - how big is your cube and where did you get it from? I could use some more no-chill cubes



the cube would be almost exactly 20L - when I transfered to the fermenter it came up to the 19 L mark and there was a bit of air in the cube.

I bought it from a junk shop in Mentone. Not sure of the name, but if you know mentone, it's the huge discount shop that's taken over the building where vintage cellars used to be. It's on Como Parade West, opposite the train station. I was surprised to find some taps on a shelf ($2-3 IIRC), then turned around to see a stack of cubes. There were a few different sizes in the cubes. The one I got was $12.95. 

I was quite happy with this find as I'd sent HWDMB (He Who Drinks My Beer) to bunnings looking for a cube and they didn't have any, so he came home with a 20 L water carrier that was tall - see photo below. I found this one difficult to work with because it doesn't fit under the overhead cupboards above my kitchen bench.


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## drsmurto (21/5/09)

I use those tall jerry cans for secondary/ccing as i can fit more than 1 in the fridge.

plus, the taller and slimmer a vessel, the faster the yeast settles.......


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## Wonderwoman (21/5/09)

canon1ball said:


> [Hmm.. I like the old clothes hanger idea, I will have to steal that one!]
> Here is another cheap one.
> 
> 1. Cut off PVC pipe 10 - 15 cm, drill 3 - holes for wire
> ...



That looks like a nice set up. I'd seen photos of similar setups on here and I'm aiming for something similar for my next AG, but I had to imporvise on the day. 

I had acutally planned to just chuck in three separate tied up hop bags. The urn comes with a stainless steel element cover, so I thought they'd be protected from the element, but once the boil started the element cover was floating around in the middle of the urn. That's when I started desparately searching for something to suspend the hop bags from and found the coat hanger wire. The hops for each addition were in different bags and I just slipped the string over the wire.


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## Phoney (21/5/09)

I bought a couple of 25L cubes from Ray's Outdoors recently. They were $15.95 each from memory. Taps were an extra 2 or 3 bucks.


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## Wonderwoman (21/5/09)

DrSmurto said:


> I use those tall jerry cans for secondary/ccing as i can fit more than 1 in the fridge.
> 
> plus, the taller and slimmer a vessel, the faster the yeast settles.......



good points - I hadn't thought of those... I'll just have to rip out the kitchen cuboards... i'm sure the landlord wont mind


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## brettprevans (21/5/09)

great effort by the way WW. I meant to say that in the first post.

youll have to add your name to the BIAB register. ashame your not coming to Mrs Parmas tomorrow to meet Katie and Llyod from WA, KT is another BIABer


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## chappo1970 (21/5/09)

WW? Not wanting to pry tooo much BUT  

If your now BIAB what method does HWDMB do for his brews?

Chappo


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## Wonderwoman (21/5/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> great effort by the way WW. I meant to say that in the first post.
> 
> youll have to add your name to the BIAB register. ashame your not coming to Mrs Parmas tomorrow to meet Katie and Llyod from WA, KT is another BIABer



thanks to everyone for the congrats.

I tried to add my name to the BIAB register, but the formatting is all f'd up??? 

would have loved to go tomorrow, but I would in the burbs, so lunch is out  . If it's going to drag on till the evening I could make an appearance...



Chappo said:


> WW? Not wanting to pry tooo much BUT
> 
> If your now BIAB what method does HWDMB do for his brews?
> 
> Chappo



I have to confess I'm not completely converted to the dark side yet. I still plan to do some k+b, just to save time, and try to do 1-2 AG's per month. HWDMB has so far been mostly satisfied to go along with whatever recipe I'm planning, so I assume he'll want to try some BIABs


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## chappo1970 (21/5/09)

wonderwoman said:


> ...I have to confess I'm not completely converted to the dark side yet...
> SNIP
> ....HWDMB has so far been mostly satisfied to go along with whatever recipe I'm planning, so I assume he'll want to try some BIABs...



 Oh yes you are wait till you try your brew and then try saying it again?

I'm glad to see HWDMB is a good puppy dog and does exactly what he is told!  I'm telling ya if I was you I would kick 'im out of bed to lift the grain bag, then let go back to bed.

Cheers

Chappo


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## Bribie G (21/5/09)

I was round at another forum member's place yesterday afternoon getting ratarsed and he said that just before getting into brewing he sold his Fowlers Vacola urn because he never envisioned using it for anything. EEK. Well I'm sure we've all got stories like that. 

Temperature control: I use a Birko urn with a pretty good temp control dial, however I switch it off on reaching strike temp, then I use the doonah method to avoid either melting the bag or getting hotspots at the bottom of the mash. First I slip over an old kid's size sleeping bag then I wrap the whole thing in a single feather doonah and strap it with some nylon cord. My last mash, two hours, I lost one degree per hour. You've got the hot mash already, best to keep it insulated and let it do its thing IMHO.

Your method is bog standard textbook BIAB, looks great. 30 litres is pushing the envelope just a bit. For a bit more efficiency, what I often do with a stronger beer is:

After mashing, run about six litres of the sweet wort off into a stockpot. Pour six litres of very hot water into the urn, stir like buggery. Hoist and drain the bag. Pour the six litres of first runnings back in, then do the boil. You need to boil for an extra half hour or so to evaporate off and get the level back to what it would have been, but you get a better extraction (ie less sugaz left clinging in the spent mash).

Welcome to the black arts :icon_cheers:


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## flattop (21/5/09)

Well done WW i knocked up a couple of batches of Dr Smurto's GA for my 2nd and 3rd AG and the first hit 1.040 just like yours, i managed to squeeze a couple more points from the 2nd by stirring a whole lot more often. This will also ensure you get a more accurate temp reading by preventing hot spots near the the heat source.

Like you, i don't turn off my urn but rely on the thermostat to keep a constant temp, in fact Dr Smurto's requires a higher mash out temp anyhow.

As for draining the urn to the cube, i drain my urn directly into the cube running the wort down the side, not straight in, trying to reduce splashing to prevent oxidization (if you believe in HSA i don't)
Seems to work fine.


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## Pollux (21/5/09)

Chappo said:


> Oh yes you are wait till you try your brew and then try saying it again?



This is so VERY true....

I remember drinking my first AG, after 5 days in the bottle it crapped all over my best extract which at the time I made it I thought was awesome...


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## Wonderwoman (22/5/09)

flattop said:


> As for draining the urn to the cube, i drain my urn directly into the cube running the wort down the side, not straight in, trying to reduce splashing to prevent oxidization (if you believe in HSA i don't)
> Seems to work fine.



hmm... I hadn't even thought of that. would be much easier than f'ing around with the hose


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## crundle (22/5/09)

I dump my hot wort into the cube using the bog standard Crown Urn tap, no hose. No problems, and no HSA. Keep it simple.

I am changing my mashing system for the next brew to mirror BribieG's. The urn thermostat may be fine, but it seems that the grain in the bag may form a blanket of sorts over the element and thermometer, so while it will heat up, it is only local to under the grain bag, leaving the rest of the grain at a lower temperature. I hope to get better extraction for my next brew.

Oh, and you will find it hard to go back to kits ever once you taste the first AG you have made. We all said the same thing I think, but the power of the dark side is very strong indeed!

cheers,

Crundle


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## Wonderwoman (22/5/09)

if the pull of the dark side is indeed as strong as you all claim it is, I'm going to have to get a bigger pot/urn so I can do double batches cos I just don't have time to do a 20L AG every weekend!

besides, Crundle, you're still making kit brews...?


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## marcuspianta (26/5/09)

wonderwoman said:


> if the pull of the dark side is indeed as strong as you all claim it is, I'm going to have to get a bigger pot/urn so I can do double batches cos I just don't have time to do a 20L AG every weekend!
> 
> besides, Crundle, you're still making kit brews...?



hey all,
long-time forum note-taker, 1st post.

Did my first biab on the weekend - inspired by many of the biab posts, and most recently, this one.

All went well aside from half the wort on the floor cos when i pulled it out of the urn, the pot i put it in was too small.

Trap for young palyers. makes efficiency calculations tricky.

Anyway, was a little creatures bright ale clone (thanks Tony - http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=301).

Only advice i'd have is just get in and give it a go. I procrastinated trying to perfect the finer points, but there is no substitute for trouble-shooting as you go and just getting into it.

Thanks again all,

marcus.


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## Mantis (26/5/09)

Hey Marcus, welcome onboard

When pulling the bag out of the pot you can gather up a corner of it so the bag has a pointy bottom. Gloves here would be handy (makes ANOTHER mental note to buy some), but if you can grab a bit of bag and shake the grain out of it , it cools imediately and can be pulled up . See the pics in my blog. 
Welcome to the double dark side, AG and BIAB
heheheheh


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## Wonderwoman (1/6/09)

marcusp said:


> hey all,
> long-time forum note-taker, 1st post.
> 
> Did my first biab on the weekend - inspired by many of the biab posts, and most recently, this one.
> ...




congratulations Marcus! 

i'm still waiting to taste this beer... it's still in secondary, and I haven't had a chance to do a second AG yet... maybe in two weeks time


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## bconnery (1/6/09)

wonderwoman said:


> HWDMB (He Who Drinks My Beer)



Brilliant! 
Did you and braufrau come up with this one?


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## Wonderwoman (2/6/09)

bconnery said:


> Brilliant!
> Did you and braufrau come up with this one?



thanks - I don't actually know braufrau.

It came to me because I was thinking that "HWMBO" isn't accurate... obviously I still have to be obeyed  and no sensible man is going to try to stop me from spending more time brewing, spending money on improving my brew gear, buying better ingredients etc, which seem to be some of the common complaints from guys about their SWMBO's


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## chappo1970 (2/6/09)

mutter....mutter....grumphhh!
Wish my SWMBO brewed beer  
Why is it that all the good ones are gone?

Chappo


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## marcuspianta (2/6/09)

Mantis said:


> Hey Marcus, welcome onboard
> 
> When pulling the bag out of the pot you can gather up a corner of it so the bag has a pointy bottom. Gloves here would be handy (makes ANOTHER mental note to buy some), but if you can grab a bit of bag and shake the grain out of it , it cools imediately and can be pulled up . See the pics in my blog.
> Welcome to the double dark side, AG and BIAB
> heheheheh



thanks, will need to organise some sort of pulley system - ill just have to move my brewing area out of the kitchen - the girl will be v happy bout that!

pics on the blog helped a heap...


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## drtomc (4/6/09)

marcusp said:


> thanks, will need to organise some sort of pulley system - ill just have to move my brewing area out of the kitchen - the girl will be v happy bout that!
> 
> pics on the blog helped a heap...



My favorite bit of brewing bling is my pulley system. About $100 worth of SS/nylon boat fittings.  Of course it gives about 5x the mechanical advantage I really need for regular brews. Still, will be just the ticket if I ever try to cram 40Kg of grain into my 60L pot  That'll force me into a higher grist/liquor ratio.... 

T.


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## Wonderwoman (9/7/09)

ok, so the beer is ready to drink and I've been questioned on another thread as to how it turned out... so to keep the other tread on topic, I'll post the details here...


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## Wonderwoman (9/7/09)

so... althought I'm proud of my first AG - everyone likes it etc, I can sometime taste a bit of a "cardboard" taste on the finish - no one else seems to notice it... I might be crazy... :blink: sometimes I can't taste it... so I drink them and try not to look for the wierd taste...

I thought I'd read somewhere that cardboard flavours are due to oxidation...

I made as many people as I could at the recent vic case swap try it and tell me if they could notice anything wrong with it, but the only comments I remember (yes I was very drunk) were that it could be that the yeast hadn't settled properly at the time (only ~10 days in the bottle). I don't think anyone else could taste the carboard


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## Fourstar (9/7/09)

sorry but i didnt get to taste it.. where was my offering? or did HWDMB scoff them and take a nap? 

cardboard = oxidation.. i'd say you may have picked it up when bottling, getting HSA is a hard thing todo.. ive had stuck mashes where ive scooped the grist out of a mash tun 3 times without any ill effects.


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## Wonderwoman (9/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> sorry but i didnt get to taste it.. where was my offering? or did HWDMB scoff them and take a nap?
> 
> cardboard = oxidation.. i'd say you may have picked it up when bottling, getting HSA is a hard thing todo.. ive had stuck mashes where ive scooped the grist out of a mash tun 3 times without any ill effects.



sorry fourstar - I don't know where you were when I was offering around

the wierd thing about the cardboard is 
1. other people can't taste it
2. I could taste it when it was fermenting, so it can't be from bottling


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## Fourstar (9/7/09)

wonderwoman said:


> 2. I could taste it when it was fermenting, so it can't be from bottling



Maybe you did get some HSA.. strange.

whats your malt bill?


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## Katherine (9/7/09)

sorry to hijack the thread ww... at least it was about beer...

Four star can you explain HSA?


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## Fourstar (9/7/09)

Katie said:


> sorry to hijack the thread ww... at least it was about beer...
> 
> Four star can you explain HSA?



Basically, incorporating air into the wort before its at ambient temps. Essentially O2 attaches itself to other compunds in the wort and as it ferments out it breaks down and creates off flavours. cardboard is one of them.

see the bibles response here: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-3.html


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## c0z (10/7/09)

wonderwoman said:


> sorry fourstar - I don't know where you were when I was offering around
> 
> the wierd thing about the cardboard is
> 1. other people can't taste it
> 2. I could taste it when it was fermenting, so it can't be from bottling



maybe the taste is a hint of 'swiss voile' or anything else that was new for your first ag. eg. new no chill cube or new plastic taps or spoons.


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## Wonderwoman (10/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> Maybe you did get some HSA.. strange.
> 
> whats your malt bill?



I used Dr smurto's golden ale recipe exactly as on recipe DB



c0z said:


> maybe the taste is a hint of 'swiss voile' or anything else that was new for your first ag. eg. new no chill cube or new plastic taps or spoons.




It was a while ago now so my memory is a bit hazy, but I think I boiled a batch of water in the urn (with the bag in place) then drained the water and replaced it with fresh water prior to mashing - I'll have to check my notes at home to see if I did do this. I'm also pretty sure that the NC cube had been used before as a secondary fermenter, but there was a new piece of tubing that I used to transfer from the urn to the NC cube. I did run boiling water through it to clean it before use, but I porbably should have tasted the run off to check if there were any wierd flavours coming out of it.


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## eric8 (10/7/09)

I would very much doubt that it was the swiss voile!! Was the tubing silicone? If it was then it wouldn't have added any flavours either. 
Maybe you where just imagining it if no one else could taste it.


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## Wonderwoman (10/7/09)

eric8 said:


> I would very much doubt that it was the swiss voile!! Was the tubing silicone? If it was then it wouldn't have added any flavours either.
> Maybe you where just imagining it if no one else could taste it.




as I pointed out in my initial post... I may just be crazy :blink:

no the tubing wasn't silicon - it was a last minute, what do I have at home that fits over the tap?!?! because the tubing I was intending to use I couldn't get to stretch over the tap. My housemate produced a piece of heavy duty nylon (I think) tubing and as I was desparate I used it without fully investigating whether it was food grade and up to the job... so I have suspecting this hose from the start, bu the taste isn't 'plasticy', or at least what i'd imagine it would taste like if the plastic had leached into the hot wort.


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