# Faux Lager recipe help



## technobabble66 (12/3/14)

Howdy
I'm going to have a crack at a faux lager with my next brew. I've never done anything like this, so i thought i'd try a really basic one first, then trick it up a bit to make a premium (faux) lager.

So the planned recipe is:

5kg Wey Boh Pils

5g Northern Brewer @ 60min (5 IBU)
6g Nelson Sauvin @ 20min (4.2 IBU)
5g Nelson Sauvin @10min (2.1 IBU)
5g Chinook @ 10min (2.2 IBU)

Mash Schedule:
63°C for 40min
70°C for 40min
78°C for 10min & lift

Notto at 15°C

OG = 1.046
FG = 1.010
IBU = 13.3 (20.5 adjusted)
abv = 5.2%
EBC = 6.8

A few questions:
1) Does the Mash schedule look ok?
It's based on supposedly what German breweries use (according to Bribie G, http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/56689-good-aussie-lager-recipe/ )

2) Does the Hops schedule look ok?
The hops are based on what i have in the freezer - i have no Euro hops (other than NB, EKG & Fuggles).
The basic idea is NB is a relatively neutral bittering hops, NS adds a general fruitiness, and the pine & spice from the Chinook balances the fruitiness. Hopefully! Knappstein apparently use NS, so i thought that gave a green light to this plan.

3)Yeast?
Probably Notto, probably at ~15°C for 1-2 weeks. I've also got a brew i'm about to bottle using 1056, so i could simply rinse that & throw it in, if that's better for some reason. I've also got WLP-007 (dry English) in the fridge, or could get US-05, S-04 etc if necessary.
Are these faux lager kinda similar to real lagers, or do you really need to use a lager yeast? I've got a fridge, but it seems to have to work hard to keep temps below 8°C - hence the faux lager, and i don't want to tie up my fridge for 8 weeks!
Is ~15°C the best temp for what i'm trying to achieve?

4) Overall thoughts?

Thanks!! B)


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## technobabble66 (12/3/14)

I should probably add, if the above is a bit too long with too many questions, the main issue is probably the yeast. 

So what's the best yeast options & temp regimes? 
- keeping in mind I'll struggle to get it below 8*C, & would rather not take several weeks (3-4 is def fine though). 
Thanks!


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (13/3/14)

If you have it, a tiny bit of melanoidin (like 200g) will give it a maltier lager feel, but still keep it at that "pale, Euro lager" type colour and flavour.

Hop schedule looks great - if you're going for a Knappstein reserve lager feel (I just noted you said that, should have read the brief better) - a 'new world' lager with the fruit that it entails. I'm sure it'll be tasty.

Don't be afraid to push Notto down to 14 (I've done it at 12 and it's still taken only a week or so). It will really neutralise the yeast flavour (and possibly strip a little of the hop fruitiness too). US05 is do-able in a faux-lager, but it'll be a lot slower down at 15 degrees, and Notto is more purpose built for it (and quicker). I got US05 to produce a clean lager without esters (so much so, that it was judged as one and didn't get docked points for esters), but if you've got Notto - use that.


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## technobabble66 (13/3/14)

Hey LRG.
Thanks!

Aaaahh ... so ... tempting .. to add .. more malts! Must ... resist ...

I'm gonna try the 100% pilsner to start with. I've finally conceded the advice of most AHB veterans to start simple & get an idea of what does what *might* be correct. Trust me, i'm desperate to throw some Melanoiden in there now that you've suggested it. If this goes well, it'll def be in the next one!

Hopwise, i'm not necessarily going for anything. Just something that'll work - ie: be roughly in balance & style. I simply don't have the Euro hops to do it old school. However, it's now most likely i'll do this after the Melb BB, which is at FullPint this Saturday, so i'll be able to grab Hall. Mitt. or Saaz if required. I've had a suggestion that it might be worth going down that route.
Are those 2 more reliable/safe to make a lager compared to NS? (eg: does NS have a much smaller margin for error in the schedule?)

It looks like Notto is the go, then. Again, i've just realized i may be able to get WLP-810 this Saturday, which is a San Francisco Lager strain that ferments at 14-18°C. 
TBH, the fermenting stage i can easily cover for any strain. It is the *Lagering* stage i'm worried about as i don't think i can go below 8°C. I'm guessing a week or 2 at 8°C will be fine for Notto to mimic this, but i don't know about WLP-810 or any other lager strains. And i don't want to take 4-6 weeks lagering something - again, i believe Notto would be quicker in this also.
What are your thoughts on this? Just keep it simple & stick to Notto? (my current inclination).

I guess another added bonus of the Notto might be it'll supposedly strip out a little hops flavour, which could compensate if i overshoot on the NS, if i go down that path.

Thanks again!

Edit: I think i'll probably just go simple Old School, and do a NB + Hall Mitt combo on the hops. Once i've done that i'll start playing with the hops.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (13/3/14)

Yeah, just Notto. I never lagered with it, just gave it a little longer in Primary than normal, gelatined and bottled/kegged from there.

I have no experience with WLP-810, so I'm really only commenting on what I know Notto _can_ do. If you run it low, a D-rest if possible and let it clean up for a while, it'll do a very good impression of a lager.


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## technobabble66 (13/3/14)

Thanks heaps!

Looks like it'll be: 100% Boh Pils w NB + Hall Mitt, using Notto at 14°C, plus a little D-rest somewhere & an extra week or so in the FV.

One final thing: worth doing any salts additions? namely CaCl or CaSO4?
I'm in melbourne, so the water's about as soft as you can get it.


Edit: Eeerrrm ... minor technicality - i just noticed my 2 Notto packs have BB dates of 7/13 & 1/14. Now i was gonna throw both into the batch anyway (~25L). That'd still be ok, wouldn't it?


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (13/3/14)

Water is soft here as well.

Water in Brisbane was (for a time) fairly hard, so my faux-lager experience is in light of that.

I've done a belgian blonde (very light at 5.5%) with the soft water here, and it was excellent.

I'd be inclined to keep it that way, though I could understand if your faux-lager is more "aussie" style and you want a bit of sharpness in the finish, that you might add a bit of something in there to harden it up.

IT's a bit like German Pils vs Bohemian Pils - both do the trick for someone, both are brewed with entirely different water profiles.


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## manticle (13/3/14)

> Thanks heaps!
> 
> Looks like it'll be: 100% Boh Pils w NB + Hall Mitt, using Notto at 14°C, plus a little D-rest somewhere & an extra week or so in the FV.
> 
> ...


With all pils malt you may need a little acid in there as well as a touch of Calcium. Which calcium salt is up to you depending on desired results. Sulphate to push hops, chloride to push malt. Think of those aspects as seasoning - the calcium drops mash pH and does a bunch of other wonderful things. Melbourne water is calcium deficient.

That's the general idea. Do you have any way of measuring mash pH though? For acid, lactic or phosphoric are my go tos but citric will do in a pinch.


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## technobabble66 (13/3/14)

@ Manticle
Haha - i was reading about Boh/German pils water profiles while you were writing this, i think, after i read LRG's comment. It seemed apparent the acidity could be a problem, given i know the darker malts are usually relied upon to drop pH in ales, etc, and i'm doing 100% pilsner malt. I played with EZ Water for a few mins, and the pH is def a problem.

I might be a little more inclined to go malty rather than hoppy, but TBH i'll probably just chuck a bit of both in there. However, i'd need to chuck in a truckload to get the right pH, then i have problems with the water being too hard. So i kinda got to the same conclusion - i need some acidified malt (preferred, but FullPint don't officially stock it & i don't have any), or lactic/phosphoric acid (also don't have any) or citric acid (THIS i have).
How much Citric acid is good? (or rather, how do i work this out for myself?) And why is it not ideal? I've done a little reading, but there's lots of different opinions as to it being good, bad, or indifferent. 
I noticed a few experienced brewers have used it in a pinch - one melbourne guy (Rob.W) said he used a teaspoon in pale beer batches. I know that's a fairly crap way for me to *guess* how much to add, but i'm hoping it'll be good enough unless i can find a way to calculate it properly.

Unfortunately i don't have a pH meter.
I do have an aquarium pH tester (solution) so i might be able to guesstimate/extrapolate.


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## manticle (13/3/14)

Two approaches -

1. Bung a bit in and hope for the best. Can defeat the point of using it but you can also get too worked up about details.

2. Get some pH strips, measure, add a touch, allow to settle then measure again. Keep dosing till you are in the ballpark. I think ez will also help get a feel for lactic acid. Not sure how strong/concentrated your citric is.

I've used both approaches - even just squeezed a bit of lemon in an all pils batch and crossed my fingers. Mash pH slightly low is better than too high - accurate is obviously better.


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## technobabble66 (16/3/14)

(Faux) Lager's Away!!
Currently sitting in fridge at 14°C
I threw in 2 packs of Notto (because they were both slightly out of BB date) last night at 25°C then put it in the fridge.

I also did a quasi-sparge with 7L after i pulled the bag out of my urn, and recirculated the original wort thru it as well.
Wow - what a difference recirculation makes: the wort was fairly clear at the start of the boil.

pH-wise, I ended up getting some Wey Acidulated Malt & threw in 120g, plus 2g CaCl2 & 2g CaSO4 (& 0.5g each in the sparge water).


So, the recipe ended up:

OG = 1.047
FG = 1.008
IBU = 15.5 (20.4 whirlpool adjusted, ie: added 20min)
abv = 5.6%
EBC = 6.9


5.0kg Wey Boh Pils
0.12kg Wey Acidulated

10g Northern Brewer @ 60min (5 IBU)
10g Hallertauer Mittelfruh @ 20min (4.2 IBU)
10g Hallertauer Mittelfruh @10min (2.1 IBU)

26L Mash, 2g CaCl2 + 2g CaSO4 into Mash
7L Sparge, 0.5g CaCl2 + 0.5g CaSO4 into Sparge 

Mash Schedule:
63°C for 40min
67°C for 15min
72°C for 25min
78°C for Mashout & lift

Recirculated for 10min
Sparged with 7L

90min boil
I remembered the Irish Moss!! (well, at 5mins anyway)

Whirlpooled & plate-chilled.

Post boil volume came in at 22L at 1.061.
Diluted to 28.5L to get it back to ~1.048 (IBU ~13.8)

Notto at 14°C
Will drop it to 7-8°C for 1-2wks after fermentation is finished

Big thanks to all who helped drag this learning brew together!


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## lukiferj (16/3/14)

Woohoo nice one man. Post feedback after you have tasted it.


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## technobabble66 (16/3/14)

Thanks. Will do.
I needed convincing on keeping it simple - too many hops & malts tempting me.
Especially after i read about Raid Lager by To OL - inspiration for the next faux lager or two ... if this one works out...


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## technobabble66 (24/3/14)

Half-time update:
It fermented out almost completely at 14°C within 5 days (thermo set at 13°C - wow, Notto's hard to subdue!).
I started to gradually raise the temp to ensure the yeast finished it's job and didn't stall on the last point or 2, and to make for a slightly faster "clean-up" before CCing. Roughly 1°C per day using a PET bottle with hot water in the fridge (the Notto didn't seem to have enough oomph to raise the temp itself). Got it up to 16°C for ~2 days, and are now about to drop it to whatever the fridge can handle comfortably: 7-8°C for a week or so.

The samples (strictly for research purposes only!) were tasting promising before the temperature raising, but now it's tasting great. Nice & smooth with a light barley flavour & a somewhat lager-like crispness - well, at least compared to a regular ale. It was very interesting how the flavour elements have smoothed out a little more and, in particular, come together in the last 2-3 days - not sure if it had anything to do with the temp schedule, i'm guessing not (though maybe the higher temp sped up this transformation a bit?). So instead of being a few disjointed flavour elements, it now rolls together well. I suppose this happens in all beers, but it's much more obvious in such a simple recipe (almost a SMaSH).

Still early days but very promising, so i'm very keen to try it after the CCing (& bottling, of course!)


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## technobabble66 (30/3/14)

3rd Quarter Update:
Bottled today - tasting good out of the FV.
It took 15 days from pitching to bottling. That included the majority of fermentation completing within 4 days at 13-14°C, raised to 16°C for 3 days to finish up, then down to 6°C over 3-4 days, to hold at 6°C for 3 days CCing. Notto is a cold weather beast!
Keen to test it in 1-2 weeks.


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## rbtmc (15/4/14)

Op can we get an update pls?


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## danestead (15/4/14)

Can I ask a question, apologies for taking it off track slightly.

when brewing a faux lager, what pitching rate do you go for? Do I go for a x0.75 rate or a normal lager rate of x1.5?


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## lukiferj (15/4/14)

Pitching rate should be dependant on what yeast you are using and your OG. If you're using an ale yeast at ale yeast temps then go with that.


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## technobabble66 (15/4/14)

Update!
2 weeks carbing in bottles was up a few days ago.
Tastings after 1 week carbing had a banana aroma (fkn typical - huge effort last year to get a banana hefe = zip; brew a faux lager = banana central). Not bad but def not what I was after. This luckily has faded a week later.

The carbing has def been slow - obviously the yeast are a bit sleepy after living in the cold for so long. The stubbies I've shaken a few times over the last 2 weeks are nicely carbed and tasting great - all sweetness gone, a nice dry finish with a good light barley flavour and a slight element of that distinctive lager flavour.
Most longnecks are still a bit under carbed so have a slight sweetness which produces a slight honey element to the barley flavour. I have to admit I was relieved and very pleased when I cracked the first fully carbed stubby. Until then I was concerned with the residual sweetness and banana aroma. But the fully carbed one was great. In a layman's terms it seemed similar to a boags premium(!!!). Pretty much what I'm aiming for with a simple AG (fake) lager.
I'm still not sure about the bitterness - probably needs a bit more, maybe another 5 IBU? But the proper dry version seemed relatively balanced - didn't need more bitterness as the malt presence is relatively light. Mouthfeel was full & great. V happy!


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## technobabble66 (15/4/14)

FWIW, i rehydrated & pitched 2 packs of Notto - simply because both were out of date. One was a few months over, and i think had been well looked after. The other was from a (discounted) kit pack i got a while ago that i rescued from a semi-LHBS shelf and was now many months out of date. So i thought what the hell, basically - I wasn't going to be able to use the 2nd pack by itself anyway.
In hindsight, i'm not sure if the 2nd pack was useful. As stated earlier, the Notto chewed through most of the fermentation within 3 days. Less 1 (crappy) pack would mean it'd take, what, an extra day?
Also, i'd be keen to see if there was much difference fermenting the Notto an extra degree wamer, just to help it along a little.
So if using Notto then i'd guess the pitching rate is fine with 1 pack so long as the OG is around 1.050 or below. No idea with other yeasts. I don't think the other ale yeasts handle temps down at 13°C, so they'd have to be around 15+°C, in which case (as lukiferj stated) 1 pack would again be enough. No idea about proper lagers, i'm afraid.

Obviously, i'll need to brew a few variants of this to have a better understanding of exactly what the malts, hops and yeast are individually doing, and the overall impact of the of the cold fermentation. FWP!


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## lukiferj (16/4/14)

Nice one man! Never heard of banana with Notto though.


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## slcmorro (16/4/14)

technobabble66 said:


> distinctive lager flavour.


What is a 'lager flavour'? Not being a dick, I just don't know what you're referring to. Lagers to me, are crisp and clean so if that's what you mean then I understand entirely. Anything else, you've got me stumped.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (16/4/14)

Banana is fairly weird - never heard of it with Notto.

The other stuff sounds par for the course.

I do like a CC if possible with notto and some gelatin. It does make carbonation a long process but the beer is always considerably clearer.

If you're kegging it's absolutely fantastic how clear and lager-like the beer can get.


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## technobabble66 (16/4/14)

Yeah, Banana - wtf?? But that's the best way to describe it. If I was to break it down I'd say it was the combo of some residual yet-to-be-fermented sugar with the light golden barley grainy flavour (golden = kinda light slightly fruity malt, I s'pose). Resulted in a very banana-ry aroma. No flavour of banana luckily. Once the sweetness dropped out this aroma also dropped out. I know I'm correlating an aroma with a flavour but there you go. Maybe I should mean fruity instead of sweet, in terms of aroma. 

Ok. Lager flavour. Tricky. Maybe I'm just referring to that clean dryness lagers have. But I kinda find an additional slightly subtle element of carbonic acidity or dry "sting". As good as I can describe, I think. 

How's that elaboration?


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## Tahoose (16/4/14)

I had a banana aroma from a partial batch I put together fermentedd with notto, currently got a faux lager fermenting with 100% JW trad ale and 20 ibu's of saaz, notto for the yeast


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## philmud (28/8/14)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> Banana is fairly weird - never heard of it with Notto.


Old thread I realise, but I've also had banana with Notto. Was a Neil's Centenarillo I did a couple of years ago before I had a fermentation fridge & at the time I assumed it was too warm-a ferment.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (28/8/14)

My Notto experiences have been 16 degrees tops and a lot lower when doing faux-lagers. That might be a cause?


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## mje1980 (28/8/14)

Wy 1007 low does a great clean faux lager


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## technobabble66 (28/8/14)

Hey PI,
I think in hindsight it might've been the strong presence of the BOH pils (given it was the only malt) providing a very light malt profile (v light golden syrup or invert sugar kind of fruitiness is the best I can describe) combined with some esters or something from the Notto. Thus producing what my senses interpreted as banana-like. Minor flaw in this is the temp was so low that esters shouldn't hv been produced (I believe), and though the temp was a bit low for Notto (13-14) it shouldn't hv been too stressed. Who knos?


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## philmud (29/8/14)

Yeah it's an odd thing. Mine was an extract brew with LME from memory. I suppose that may be made from pils. It was the nicest of the 4 or 5 extract brews I did, hence the shift to AG!


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## rude (10/10/14)

Good thread for me this one as going to ferment 2 batches 100% pils malt with Tettnang with wy 2565
The other 95% pils 5% wheat with perle with nottingham yeast
Going to ferment both at 14c using 2 packets of notto & will be rehydrating @ 30
Will mix wort to bring temp down to 20c & then pitch the lot into fermenter
Hope this is the right procedure never hydrated or used notto before
Will ferment for 2 weeks then if both are done will cc


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## lukiferj (10/10/14)

Sounds good. Let us know how they go and how different they are.


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## technobabble66 (10/10/14)

Sounds great. As above, keep us posted. 
Fwiw, I'd suggest fermenting the Notto at 15*C - mine at 13-14*C seemed a bit stressed. It had a slight banana ester element to the "honey" malt flavour of the 100% Boh pils. 
Or it might've been something else that went wrong - under pitched, etc. Who knows?! :lol:


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## lukiferj (10/10/14)

technobabble66 said:


> Sounds great. As above, keep us posted.
> Fwiw, I'd suggest fermenting the Notto at 15*C - mine at 13-14*C seemed a bit stressed. It had a slight banana ester element to the "honey" malt flavour of the 100% Boh pils.
> Or it might've been something else that went wrong - under pitched, etc. Who knows?! :lol:


I have made a bunch of these and have never tasted the banana. I check for it every time though 

I agree with the 15-16 degrees. Certainly seems to be the sweet spot for me.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (10/10/14)

I've done it at 12 with Notto, but that's pitched at 16, brought down to 12 and then d-rest at 20 once it's basically at FG.

I've used a similar method with US05 (not 12 degrees though - it was 15 degrees) and entered (and won a bronze) as a lager.


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## technobabble66 (10/10/14)

Yeah, the Notto seemed to work fine at 13-14*c, but I ended up with this banana-ish element. Maybe I just massively under pitched?
It was my first one, so I really need to do a few more to have a better idea. 

I strongly suggest everyone regularly sample and check their beers for bananas. Maybe even several samples per night :lol:


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## rude (11/10/14)

Will try & pitch @ 18c then over 2 days bring it down to 14C
With the D rest its best done a few points off FG isnt it or can you do it a few days after FG


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## Jkpentreath (11/10/14)

technobabble66 said:


> Yeah, the Notto seemed to work fine at 13-14*c, but I ended up with this banana-ish element. Maybe I just massively under pitched?
> It was my first one, so I really need to do a few more to have a better idea.
> I strongly suggest everyone regularly sample and check their beers for bananas. Maybe even several samples per night :lol:


Hey matey just a thought , do the same recipe again and pitch fresh healthy yeast, then u will know. Might just be the side affect of pitching a bunch of grampas army.


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## technobabble66 (12/10/14)

Yeah, true, Jk.
Will def revisit this - the next simple brew i do (still a few others to do first) will either be a basic sparkling ale or a faux lager - basically the same recipe, just a choice between 17-18°C or 15-16°C fermentation temp, really.
So if i decide to go with the faux lager, i'll def go with only a fresh pack(s) of Notto, and maybe even use a starter to boost up the yeast numbers first.

TBH what i should do is both, actually: Do 2 lots of the same recipe, ferment one at 15°C, & one at 18°C and see what difference it makes for my perceptions.


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## Jkpentreath (12/10/14)

technobabble66 said:


> Yeah, true, Jk.
> Will def revisit this - the next simple brew i do (still a few others to do first) will either be a basic sparkling ale or a faux lager - basically the same recipe, just a choice between 17-18°C or 15-16°C fermentation temp, really.
> So if i decide to go with the faux lager, i'll def go with only a fresh pack(s) of Notto, and maybe even use a starter to boost up the yeast numbers first.
> 
> TBH what i should do is both, actually: Do 2 lots of the same recipe, ferment one at 15°C, & one at 18°C and see what difference it makes for my perceptions.


Yeah that's where I am at now ! think split batches, different yeasts but they have to be at the same temp for me I only have one fridge. I love the idea of low temp notto, I'm brewing a Swartz tomorrow but I will be using 833. But I might brew it again and ferment with notto. And put them side by side. Cheers


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## rude (15/10/14)

OK quick update with my deal both in ferment fridge ended up pitching both at 16.7 c and it came down real quick to 14c 30 mins
Kolsch yeast 2.75 L tried to pour off but vert powdery so ended pitching 2 L after heaps of sample readings & dilutions ended up with 27.5 L in fermentor 1050
The notto yeast brew 2 packs into 220ml of 32 c cooled boiled water 15 min wait then stired 5 min wait , then mixed about 5 litres of 14 c wort to get 20 c notto starter then pitched into 14 -15 c wort. got 26 Litres there 1050
Kolsch yeast started less than 12 hours ( considerable krausen ) & Notto checked 24 hours & a considerable krausen had formed
Just a waiting game now D rests to contemplate & cc ing might have to pull thr notto out early & take over the missus fridge for cc ing will post a few photos
Hope I havent taken over ya thread Techno but our local Twoc man Roy brews a mean or should say nice Notto yeast beer
The attenuator


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## dicko (15/10/14)

Jkpentreath said:


> Yeah that's where I am at now ! think split batches, different yeasts but they have to be at the same temp for me I only have one fridge. I love the idea of low temp notto, I'm brewing a Swartz tomorrow but I will be using 833. But I might brew it again and ferment with notto. And put them side by side. Cheers


If you are doing side by side batches for yeast comparison without getting too involved in trying to ferment an ale yeast at lager temps then you could try S189 lager yeast at a higher temp, say around 16 to 19 degrees.
I would choose the S189 over the Notto every time for the faux lager result.

Anyhow which ever way you go it is fun and I might add that I agree with LRG re adding a touch of Melanoiden


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## lukiferj (15/10/14)

Isn't s189 an actual lager yeast? Making it an actual lager rather than a faux lager.


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## dicko (15/10/14)

The OP created a banana flavour by what seems to be caused by yeast stress with the Notto.
If you are going to run a yeast out of its specification then I would have thought it would be better just to use a yeast that did work in the designated temp range.
My thoughts are that if you are going to do a full mash and invest time and money in the process and ingredients then why not have the beer turn out close to what you want to achieve.
On a side note S189 at ale temps around 19 to 20 does a fine APA and I have used it on a California Common once or twice when I have had trouble with a 2112 starter with absolutely great results.

As I said above, have fun and enjoy what you are doing after all we all still make beer.


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## lukiferj (15/10/14)

Completely agree Dicko, have fun and enjoy what you are doing for sure. However, I don't think the OP was using it outside of it's range. Maybe a combination of other factors.

From the Danstar page:

"The recommended fermentation temperature range of this strain is 14° to 21°C (57° to 70°F) with good tolerance to low fermentation temperatures (12°C/54°F) that allow this strain to be used in lager-style beer. With a relatively high alcohol tolerance, Nottingham is a great choice for creation of higher-alcohol specialty beers!"


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## technobabble66 (15/10/14)

@rude - You hijacking bastard!!! Only kidding  More than happy for you to take this over - it's all still v much on topic (& my main "issue" was sorted a while ago anyway). Saves any future reader having to chase down several threads if it's all in one. 
A comparison between Kolsch & Notto sounds v interesting. Hope it all goes well and you report back here asap with the results!

@Dicko - You reckon S189 works perfectly well at ~16°C and still produces a nice clean lager finish? I didn't realise - i thought you still had to do the normal ~12°C (slow) ferment. I'll be keen to give it a crack then if the results are good.
What sort of fermentation, D-rest, and lagering schedule do you use with it?
Another option is i have a couple of Mangrove Jack Bohemian Lager yeast packs, so i was wondering if i could get away with a slightly high fermentation with those, say ~15°C (high end of recommended range) to ensure it's not too slow, and still get a good lager finish.
Has anyone tried the MJ Boh Lager? If so, at what temps, and how quick did it go?

I still have no idea wtf was with that banana-esque flavour in my faux lager. I'm assuming it was something from the yeast, but who knows?? Hell, it could just be my "special" tastebuds! Reading back, is it possible it could've been from over-pitching?
I think i've still got a 1.5L bottle of this batch in the cupboard - if i liberate it in 2 weeks over a long weekend with the boys i'll try to remember to post a quick update on how it has developed over 12 months.

Melanoiden: noted (thanks for the tip!).


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## Bribie G (15/10/14)

As I posted on another thread, Bacchus brewing use / used S-189 and S-23 in many of their lagers at 19 degrees then a cold conditioning for a week or two. Nice clean flavours.


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## Funk then Funk1 (15/10/14)

Bribie G said:


> As I posted on another thread, Bacchus brewing use / used S-189 and S-23 in many of their lagers at 19 degrees then a cold conditioning for a week or two. Nice clean flavours.


yeah I've used Ross's swiss yeast - S189 (Ross's recommendation) at 18 degrees, and got nice clean lagers. 
Actually I still have a pack in the fridge now...mmm, a schwarzbier next to fill the FV, me thinks. Damn you Ross!


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## Weizguy (15/10/14)

mje1980 said:


> Wy 1007 low does a great clean faux lager


I have produced banana character from this yeast in the past, for what it's worth.


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## manticle (15/10/14)

What beer and what temp Lez? Favourite yeast of mine, never noticed isoamyl acetate.


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## dicko (16/10/14)

Bribie G said:


> As I posted on another thread, Bacchus brewing use / used S-189 and S-23 in many of their lagers at 19 degrees then a cold conditioning for a week or two. Nice clean flavours.


@ Technobabble66
What he said above mate...works quite well from what I have experienced.
I haven't bothered with a D rest when using it at these temps.

To just go a bit more off topic, I work away a bit at this time of the year and I quite often set a beer with a lager yeast in the fermenting fridge at 10 degrees and let it go for two or three weeks until I get home and if it is at terminal gravity I dont do any D rest just cold condition it.
Those beers come out as clean as you can get, with no one fussing over them 
My only opinion is that the pitch rate must be correct to work at those temps over that time.
With the S 189 at 19 I generally pitch at Ale rates which is 12 gramms for 21 litres in my case.


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## dicko (16/10/14)

lukiferj said:


> Completely agree Dicko, have fun and enjoy what you are doing for sure. However, I don't think the OP was using it outside of it's range. Maybe a combination of other factors.
> 
> From the Danstar page:
> 
> "The recommended fermentation temperature range of this strain is 14° to 21°C (57° to 70°F) with good tolerance to low fermentation temperatures (12°C/54°F) that allow this strain to be used in lager-style beer. With a relatively high alcohol tolerance, Nottingham is a great choice for creation of higher-alcohol specialty beers!"[/size]


I will admit that I have never tried Notto at 12 deg.
Notto is a great workhorse but I dont use it much as it seems to strip a lot of flavour from the beer.
In the case of the Banana esters, I would think the OP may have under pitched it at those low temps....but this is really just a guess.

Cheers


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## Bribie G (16/10/14)

Early on I used Notto and accidentally got it down to 12 degrees, and it was plugging along nicely.

I've recently bought a couple of packets of Notto for a fake lager SMASH to try out some NZ Dr Rudi (super alpha) for the first time in a NZ Export Gold lookalike so need clean and dry.


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## technobabble66 (16/10/14)

Thanks a truckload Dicko!!
Maybe instead of a fakey I'll give a S189 a crack - maybe do a 18L batch at 17-18*C. 

Any particular grist you'd recommend? :lol:
Was thinking mainly Boh Pils, plus 50-100g melanoiden (of course!) plus some wheat (500g) & Vienna/munich2(100-300g). How's that sound? Too complimacated?


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## dicko (17/10/14)

Mate,
Try this one,

Wey pils 80%
Wey vienna 18%
Melanoiden 2%
Soft water
12.4ibus of Tettnang @ 60
11.3 ibus of Tettnang @ 20
3.7 ibus of Tettnang @ 5
30 gramms of Tettnang @ flame out.
Chilled as cold as possible to ferment temp if possible.
S189 pitched to ale specs and ferment at 18 / 19
Mash at 66 for 60 mins and alpha rest at 71 for 20 mins and mash out at 77
Total boil time 80 mins with first hop addition at 60 mins
Brewbrite at 10 mins
Polyclar for a day before kegging while beer is in cold chill.
Filter through a one micron absolute filter into a keg or bottle as you prefer.


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## technobabble66 (17/10/14)

Thanks again Dicko. 
Recipe looks great!
Def give it a crack. 

Minor problem: who the hell supplies S189 these days? I've just done a search of most of the Melbourne options and everyone seems to, at best, supply the other 2 saflagers. Seems kinda odd given many reviews of S189 rate it as the best of the three (?). 

Is there any other dried yeast option that's the same as S189? Or is there a supplier down here that I've missed? Otherwise I'll have to get it sent down from craftbrewer.


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## Weizguy (17/10/14)

manticle said:


> What beer and what temp Lez? Favourite yeast of mine, never noticed isoamyl acetate.


it was an Altbier. I suspect an underpitch, but I've also had W1056 throw isoamyl acetate from an underpitch in an American blonde.

Back on topic, I hear the W1214 (Bohemian lager) is also cleaner at ale temps and will produce a good lager. Yet to try, but Jamil and cohorts insist.


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## manticle (17/10/14)

It's my go to yeast in alt and I love it but I pitch big active starters from fresh smack pack and ferment around 14 so no banana here.

Sorry for OT Techno.


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## technobabble66 (17/10/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> it was an Altbier. I suspect an underpitch, but I've also had W1056 throw isoamyl acetate from an underpitch in an American blonde.
> 
> Back on topic, I hear the W1214 (Bohemian lager) is also cleaner at ale temps and will produce a good lager. Yet to try, but Jamil and cohorts insist.


Les, did you mean W2124?
Has anyone used either this or WLP810 (San Fran lager) at high temps?

No issue w OT, mants. I'm also keen to hear more about people's isoamyl acetate experience - seems kinda on topic to me.


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## Tahoose (17/10/14)

technobabble66 said:


> Minor problem: who the hell supplies S189 these days? I've just done a search of most of the Melbourne options and everyone seems to, at best, supply the other 2 saflagers. Seems kinda odd given many reviews of S189 rate it as the best of the three (?).
> 
> Is there any other dried yeast option that's the same as S189? Or is there a supplier down here that I've missed? Otherwise I'll have to get it sent down from craftbrewer.


Keg king do, they had some there on Wednesday


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## technobabble66 (17/10/14)

Apparently Greensborough HB do too. Tragically they're shut until next Tuesday :-/ but I won't need it for another week or 3 anyway. I'll just have to remember to call next week to check they've got it in stock...
Otherwise it's 2124 from FullPint!!

Dicko (et al), could you say which out of the S189 or the 2124 (or wlp810) would give the better "lager-like" clean crisp finish, fermented at say 16-18*C? (& maybe a brief lager period). 
I'm only wondering as many brewers seemed convinced liquids always give better results.


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## Tahoose (17/10/14)

Maybe if we ask nicely, some of the other homebrew shops who already stock fermentis yeasts might condsider adding s-189 Swiss lager dry yeast to thier range.

If there seems to be a genuine demand for it I think this could be good for all involved.

I do prefer buying dry yeasts in the companies genuine packaging rather than a 1/40 share of a 500g brick.


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## dicko (18/10/14)

technobabble66 said:


> Apparently Greensborough HB do too. Tragically they're shut until next Tuesday :-/ but I won't need it for another week or 3 anyway. I'll just have to remember to call next week to check they've got it in stock...
> Otherwise it's 2124 from FullPint!!
> Dicko (et al), could you say which out of the S189 or the 2124 (or wlp810) would give the better "lager-like" clean crisp finish, fermented at say 16-18*C? (& maybe a brief lager period).
> I'm only wondering as many brewers seemed convinced liquids always give better results.


Without checking the spec I believe the San Fran yeast does not attenuate as far as the S189 but that brings me to another point, be it off topic as well.
I use the San Fran to brew a mid strength beer for the masses. It turns out great, for the masses that is very close to xxxx gold. It drops as clean as a whistle, it makes a very clear beer.
I always ferment it around 18 to 19 as well.


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## rude (23/10/14)

Update on my notto faux 10 days fermenting @ 14c down from 1050 to 1009 -1010
Took out of fridge sitting outside now for 2 days and then will cc
Excited about the taste out of fermentor could be a ripper
The kolsch is 1050 to 1010 - 1011 cranked fridge up to 16c & will slowly rise to 18c over 4 days then see if it attenuated more & cc
Taste great allso very similar


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## lukiferj (23/10/14)

Nice one! Sounds great.


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## technobabble66 (26/10/14)

FWIW, for those looking for S-189, Greensborough Home Brewing have it in stock apparently. Hopefully i'll pick up some this week.

For the record, my big grolsch of faux lager was forgotten in the loading for the big weekend :-/ so no update for the time being on that front.

@rude - looking forward to hearing how the 2 brews compare!


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## rude (26/10/14)

no worries tech the notto is ccing took over the missus fridge all be it an outside one but still getting a few strange looks from her
the kolsch I am ramping up still @ 18c now 1 more day & the wife gets fridge back again then off outside to the kolsch fridge to cc
Wont leave the notto ccing too long in the process of getting kegging just bought a freezer so will prob bottle the notto
Hopefully will have a keg ready for the kolsch though
I feel my process in brewing is getting a bit better from what I know excited about the outcome of these 2 brews
will keep you posted cheers rude


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## Weizguy (27/10/14)

technobabble66 said:


> Les, did you mean W2124?
> Has anyone used either this or WLP810 (San Fran lager) at high temps?
> 
> No issue w OT, mants. I'm also keen to hear more about people's isoamyl acetate experience - seems kinda on topic to me.


Yep W2124. My brain is not dyslexic, just my fingers.

Just don't use W2278 and let the temp get too high. Pineapple lager. It settled down after a few years, but the beer was oxidised by then. :unsure:


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## rude (29/11/14)

Have been drinking my notto yeast pils malt with a touch of wheat malt with
pearl hops 8% AA 15g 60 min 10g cubed 17.4 IBUs mashed at 64c
While sparging got stuck so re-stirred ended up with 1058-1059 what the ?
Added 4 Litres of water got 1050 fermented 10days @ 14c 1 day outside fridge at higher temp cced 1009
Bulked primed with 180g dextrose ended up 5.4% Alch whoops
Well pretty clean but unbalanced & too strong for a quaffer there is a flavour there that I cant describe pkt yeast , hops ,not sure
been in the bottle since the 4th Nov 3 pints of this & I have had enough definately no bannana Thecno
!st time with notto lowest finishing beer I have done usually mash apa'a at 67c finishing 1010-1012
Will be keging soon so hopefully have another go with Tettenang & will bitter & cube hop more.
Maybe mash 65c too


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## rude (29/11/14)




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