# Yankee Biab



## daddymem (20/3/09)

I'm going to be attempting my first AG brew soon and plan on using BIAB. I have posted my recipe and plans on a few US sites but keep getting junk back for input. "This won't work. You have to do low volumes to get any decent efficiency, the idea is dumb, etc." So I figured why not come straight to the source. Hopefully not too much will be held against me for being a Yank...I've got my best friend growing up who is now living in Tasmania if that helps at all 

If you can ignore the lack of metric units, I'd appreciate any input/advice. 

I could not find 100% swiss voile. I did find what was called voile, polyester. I do have a 2 foot x 2 foot grain bag coming from MoreBeer, what should I be looking for in opening sizes? (this is the bag: http://morebeer.com/view_product/15689//Gr...24_x_24_Medium)

This is the recipe:
http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator?item=8036

I got a recipe from another homebrewer who says this is one of his more popular brews. I tried to adapt the recipe to BIAB following the wiki, spreadsheet, and pdf (converting units, blech). This beer really doesn't fit any style but close enough. I may try toasting 2 pounds of the 2-row to get more color but mine is coming milled already...can I toast that effectively still?

Here is my brew day plan:
Put wok grate in bottom of pot
Pot 3 gallons water, turn burner on
Pot 4 more gallons of water
Attach grain bag in the pot (clamps)
Begin filling grains, dropping from a reasonable height, and stirring vigorously to break up any dry spots 


put floating thermometer in the middle
Raise temperature to 152F-start mash time-flame out
Put lid on kettle propped open with a spoon (what purpose does having it open serve?)
For first 20 minutes agitate and check temperature every 5 minutes
Turn on burner when temperature drops to 150F (around 40 minute mark potentially)
Bring to 155F. Flameout for remaining time
At 90 minutes, flame on full
Raise bag above kettle water, give a little twirl and squeeze
Place bag into bucket after it stops dripping
Suspend bag over bucket to drain out squeeze at 10 minutes drain liquid back to kettle
Determine volume of boil and specific gravity (use a ruler for depth and convert with volume per inch and assume 95%) Adjust gravity for temperature!

Bring to a boil and start 90 minutes
First hops @ 30 minutes 
Second hops @ 70 minutes
Irish Moss @ 80 minutes
Third hops @ 85 minutes



TIA for putting up with a Yank!


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## joecast (20/3/09)

cant see anything wrong with your process. all i can say is for your first biab and first ag, dont expect everything to go exactly as planned. 
-expect your mash temp to drop quicker than you anticipate
-dont expect to hit your mash temp first up (lower seems to be better, then heat up from there)
-expect your efficiency to be lower than what you calculated. if you get 75% that would be fantastic. i think i was getting 60-65% the first few times. 

anyway, not trying to be a downer. the positive side of all this is that none of these things will ruin your beer. it might not be exactly as you figure, but it can still be great. the important thing is, get out and brew :excl: 

as for your bag material, you might want to try doing a search for swiss voile, i know there have been a couple of threads about which material is best.
happy brewing, hope it goes well.
joe


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## matti (20/3/09)

Good luck mate.
Sound like a goodish plan.

The only thing I can say is that ensure the grain is crushed with most of the husk intact and if there is anyway to keep the grain from getting too compact so you get most of the godis out of them. 


Report back how you go.

Then again I have never biabed intentionally so what do I know?

(I had a stuck sparge once and had to use my giant hop bag to scoop the grains from the mash tun.)
The beer still turned nice but it took a while to clear.


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## katzke (20/3/09)

Welcome to one more American BIABer.

Just ignore the dopes that say it does not work.

A few tips. Lower your efficiency or have some dry malt on hand to fix the gravity. I am still working things out so am surprised when I hit my numbers. It looks like you may be a bit low on your volume. You can always add water at the end as long as your numbers are correct. It looks like you have run the numbers for your setup so just saying be prepared. Sounds like the bag material is correct. It is hard to find in the States. For bag size use the rule that the kettle needs to fit in the bag and you will be fine. Add a mashout step at 170F at the end of the mash. 

I get my grain locally and run it through the mill 3 times to get a finer crush. I hope to get my own mill someday so I can get it as fine as I like. With pre-milled grains you can expect a drop in efficiency. The 90-minute mash may help some as I only mash for 60.

I just have the wife pour while I stir the grains and have not had any problem with clumps. I also use an old comforter to wrap the kettle and it keeps the temp fine. I just put the lid on, cover, and tie with some rope. Not sure where you got propping the lid with a spoon.

It will help if you get some pH test strips. My water is low on everything and with the increased amount of water in the mash the light grains could not lower the pH enough. You could get some 5.2 stabilizer or some acid malt incase you need to lower the mash pH. My only problem was with an Ordinary Bitter but sense I have been making adjustments to my water the beer has tasted better.

Any more questions just ask.


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## reviled (20/3/09)

Slightly :icon_offtopic: 

Buuuuut, I must admit im loving the increase in the yanks coming over here seeking info on BIAB, its most awesome :beerbang: 

Congrats Daddymem for taking the plunge!


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## Damian44 (20/3/09)

Have you downloaded the Pdf files from the original thread? http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=11694


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## Pollux (20/3/09)

katzke said:


> I just have the wife pour while I stir the grains and have not had any problem with clumps. I also use an old comforter to wrap the kettle and it keeps the temp fine. I just put the lid on, cover, and tie with some rope. Not sure where you got propping the lid with a spoon.



I don't get all these people who say they ever get clumps....

I just tip all my grain in from a 15L pot, one dump motion then give it a good stir up with my bunnings paint stirrer "mash paddle"......



Haven't seen a dry lump yet.


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## reg (20/3/09)

If you are after ready made bags for BIAB I think it was Gryphonbrewing.com.au that was retailing them.
Have a look, but I dont think your grain bag will be large enough. Hope I am wrong though.

Reg


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## Pollux (20/3/09)

The guideline is the pot should be able to fit in the bag....


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## joecast (20/3/09)

Pollux said:


> I don't get all these people who say they ever get clumps....
> 
> I just tip all my grain in from a 15L pot, one dump motion then give it a good stir up with my bunnings paint stirrer "mash paddle"......
> 
> ...



hmm, i must be doing it wrong. i put the grain in the bag first, then dip the bag into my vessel. takes 5-10 minutes of good stirring to loosen it all up.
next time will try putting the bag in first, then dumping the grain in and see how it goes.
joe


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## SpillsMostOfIt (20/3/09)

Polyester voile is fine. I think some of mine is polyester and some is nylon. Here's a photo of what it looks like if you want to lug a picture into the haberdasher's...

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Chkml...feat=directlink

The finer you can crush the grain, the better for BIAB. I sometimes put mine through the mill twice. The sparging dynamic is much different to normal sparging where they talk about intact husks and stuff like that. You cannot get a stuck sparge (unless perhaps you use 150% malted rye or cement) - you almost want flour. You will get a cloudy wort, but the only difference I have found between a cloudy wort and a clear one is the clear one is purdier. (Purdy is american for pretty...  ) 

My process is to put all the water into the pot and bring it to temp; insert the empty bag and any water agents; stir and check temp; pour in the grain and then stir it for a while to ensure any lumps break up. Easy.

FWIW, some of my best friends are Americans, but I do know what you mean by "putting up with a yank"...


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## daddymem (20/3/09)

Wow, thanks on the responses guys. I'm slightly pissed as a fart tonight after an IIPA tasting and some homebrews, so forgive if I don't make sense. I got two yards of the voile so can make the bag to fit my kettle. I'm concerned a bit on the mill, it is coming premilled as I don't have a mill yet. As long as the brew is drinkable and I get a good idea on where to improve I'll be happy. The spoon propped lid comes from the BIAB instruction pdf. No mash out was done on that either. I was wondering about the mash out. Would the mashout be after the 90 minute mash or part of it?

I'd try the nochill, but still haven't seen if there is any difference in the grains we use here, I understand that the domestic 2-row can have much higher DMS. Maybe I'll try it sometime too.


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## daddymem (20/3/09)

FWIW I'm a yankee yank (new england, right near the pebble the English landed on in the myths). Purdy is a southern term as in "you shore have a purdy mouf." 

Any advice on milling premilled grains without an actual mill? I'm looking into making one of those pasta mills.


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## daddymem (20/3/09)

Awesome pic spills, I'll check that when I'm sotally tober.


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## Pollux (20/3/09)

Have a read over some people's threads to get an idea of how their day ran....

Here's mine


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## SpillsMostOfIt (20/3/09)

Daddymem said:


> Any advice on milling premilled grains without an actual mill? I'm looking into making one of those pasta mills.



Yes - don't bother. For your first (and in my opinion, second, third and more) go, whatever milling is done will be good enough.

It is (in my opinion) too easy to get caught up with what people write on the web about what amounts to incremental improvement when you're first starting. It sounds to me like you're purdy much on the right track and will end up with flawed but quite drinkable beer after your first attempt - which makes you no better or worse than anyone else here.


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## Damian44 (20/3/09)

Your better off closing the lid to keep the temps stable. Get the water slightly above mash temps, before adding the bag and grains.


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## katzke (20/3/09)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Yes - don't bother. For your first (and in my opinion, second, third and more) go, whatever milling is done will be good enough.
> 
> It is (in my opinion) too easy to get caught up with what people write on the web about what amounts to incremental improvement when you're first starting. It sounds to me like you're purdy much on the right track and will end up with flawed but quite drinkable beer after your first attempt - which makes you no better or worse than anyone else here.



That is why I recomend some DME on hand. Never know how the first few will turn out and DME is easy to get here in the USA.


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## Mantis (20/3/09)

Picks of my first biab AG are in my blog that is my sig
My bag is just a straight pillow shape and by lifting one corner when the bag is lifted it forms a cone for acturate drainage. Bag is lifted with rope and pulling probably the same as most here.

Good luck with it yanky bud

I chat on irc daily with a group of tomato/pepper growing yanks and some of them are right into brewing as well. Dunno if you have come across Landarc on the forums up there as he is one of them

Cheers and have a good day


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## daddymem (20/3/09)

I keep trying to get to your sig but I can't get past your avatar Mantis.  i'm hunting down ppls BIAB experiences here for reference. If my wife ever pops this kid out, I get a week off so hopefully can get half a day to do this.


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## browndog (20/3/09)

Daddymem said:


> I keep trying to get to your sig but I can't get past your avatar Mantis.  i'm hunting down ppls BIAB experiences here for reference. If my wife ever pops this kid out, I get a week off so hopefully can get half a day to do this.



Yes, Mantis avatar is annoying me, I just used the window magnifier for the very first time and it was all pixelly. Good luck with the BIAB Daddymem, it will tuen out great.

cheers

Browndog


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## Bribie G (20/3/09)

For the quantities you are using and the pot size a good way of ensuring a good stable mash temperature is to put the lid on and insulate well with no need to add extra heat. Where do you brew, do you have a good ol USA cellar? It amazes me that in Australia we don't have basements or cellars. In the old Victorian suburbs like Central Sydney the old row houses often had basements same as in Philly or Baltimore but we seem to have lost the art nowadays. Pity. 





That's a feather quilt and the last BIAB I did was a 90 minute mash and it only dropped 3 degrees C whatever that is in the old money, over that period.


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## daddymem (22/3/09)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> Polyester voile is fine. I think some of mine is polyester and some is nylon. Here's a photo of what it looks like if you want to lug a picture into the haberdasher's...
> 
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Chkml...feat=directlink
> 
> ...



Hrmmmm, my mesh looks a lot finer than yours. This is what I got:




Do I have to find different stuff now? Those are 10ths of an inch btw.


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## braufrau (22/3/09)

BribieG said:


> For the quantities you are using and the pot size a good way of ensuring a good stable mash temperature is to put the lid on and insulate well with no need to add extra heat. Where do you brew, do you have a good ol USA cellar? It amazes me that in Australia we don't have basements or cellars. In the old Victorian suburbs like Central Sydney the old row houses often had basements same as in Philly or Baltimore but we seem to have lost the art nowadays. Pity.
> 
> View attachment 25559
> 
> ...



Hey that looks like how I used to mash! Only I'd put a pretty cover on the doona!


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## reVoxAHB (22/3/09)

I've read your efficiency will shoot up another 5% if you can construct your "bag" from a genuine American flag  . It only works in the USA, of course. 

Cheers, 
reVox


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## SpillsMostOfIt (22/3/09)

Daddymem said:


> Hrmmmm, my mesh looks a lot finer than yours. This is what I got:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That does look a lot finer and it looks different to the usual Australian Swiss Stuff in that Ours is a knotted weave, whereas yours is just a simple basket weave. It will be interesting to see how it goes. It will probably work, but I suspect probably not as well as ours (as is so often the case trans-atlantic...  ) It might not drain as quickly, so prepare to hang it from a doorknob draining into a bucket or something to avoid over-developed arm muscles.


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## katzke (22/3/09)

reVox said:


> I've read your efficiency will shoot up another 5% if you can construct your "bag" from a genuine American flag  . It only works in the USA, of course.
> 
> Cheers,
> reVox



That would be disrespectful of the flag and all those that died for it. Even the ones that died so you do not have to speak Japanese now.

But you do what you want with the Aussie flag.


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## SDJ (22/3/09)

Iv'e done over 50 BIAB brews so far and have used the same method every time with the same results, damm good beer thats is 5.2% alcohol or very close every time.

simplify is the way I do it, I sewed the bag myself and its smaller than the pot (it works), fill pot with water from the garden hose, place trivet with 2 inch legs in pot, put bag in pot and use bulldog clips to hold it up, light burner, pour grain into water in pot, turn burner up, Ive never seen this clumping people talk about, stir grain occasionaly whilst it heats to 66C (thermometer is hanging from inside of pot on a handmade coathanger thingy) 
I dont use a lid, when 66 C is reached (usually 25ish minutes) I turn the burner off, remove the clips holding the bag onto the pot then lift the bag up and support it by propping my elbows on the pot sides, let it drain for a few minutes then set it on an old fridge shelf over an esky (American cooler), remove trivet from pot, fire up burner to high, squeeze grain in bag with a plastic plate to extract wort from grain into esky (cooler) then tip into pot.
it normaly takes about 20 minutes to get to boiling, turn burner down, work out times for hop additions, recheck brew, go play guitar,watch movie on tv or check the drum smoker as I often make beef jerky whilst brewing, I set the alarm on my mobile to warn me when a hop addition is close and just pop out side and add the hops to the hop sock suspended from another coathanger thingy, 
I usually squirt some CO2 into the cube I use to no chill the wort then siphon it straight in hot, squeeze the cube between the gate and gatepost then do the lid up.
I managed to turn several people to the art of homebrewing and the only ones that have problems are the few that wanted to complicate things, serves them right, if something works and works well, why the hell fcuk with it!!

sorry this is so long but its just my $3.58 worth.


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## daddymem (22/3/09)

Wow! I've been looking into picking up a wort chiller locally. The lhbs want to rape you! Lowest is $85, highest is $150. Online $50-$60 but then you have shipping. I'm going to check on copper prices to DIY it but I am intrigued with the no-chill method. A concerned raised once on here was someone suggested that Domestic grains we get tend to have higher DMS production than what you guys get. I can't find that thread, it was a Yank also who was going to give it a shot with our stuff. I'd love to know how it went. If I can no-chill I would be very happy. I can get water jugs for ~$8. HDPE "2" on the bottom. Figure give the wort a nice whirlpool at flameout, let it sit for 10 minutes or so and siphon off into a cube....hrmmm can my autosiphon take that hot wort??


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## daddymem (22/3/09)

Aha!

Found it:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=25831&st=0


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## daddymem (23/3/09)

OK. Autosiphon will probably not handle the hot wort. If the vinyl (?) tubing I have that came with my True Brew kit would handle the heat I can make a T-auto siphon for pennies and get some rigid tubing for a racking cane. Until I get a valve on my kettle that is.


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## daddymem (23/3/09)

Well, the best I could find for a cube was a 6 gallon water jug for $5 or a 5 gallon water cube for $11 (All US $). Can I squeeze out enough air in the 6 gallon since most of our brews here in the US are 5 gallon batches?

What can I siphon with. I was going to get some hose to use but the guy at Home Depot said only copper could handle the temps.


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## glennheinzel (23/3/09)

Daddymem said:


> Well, the best I could find for a cube was a 6 gallon water jug for $5 or a 5 gallon water cube for $11 (All US $). Can I squeeze out enough air in the 6 gallon since most of our brews here in the US are 5 gallon batches?
> 
> What can I siphon with. I was going to get some hose to use but the guy at Home Depot said only copper could handle the temps.



Silicon hose will do the trick.
http://www.mashmaster.com.au/p/368223/sili...e-diameter.html


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## daddymem (23/3/09)

Sweet. Will a standard siphon do or do I get a stainless one?


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## daddymem (23/3/09)

Actually I'm going to hit a pluming supply for the hose and hopefully 24" of copper for a racking cane.


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## daddymem (23/3/09)

Here's some BIAB success in Yankee land:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/brew-bag-t...results-109973/


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## SpillsMostOfIt (23/3/09)

If you are the kind of person who ferments in glass carboys or plastic buckets that do not have taps in them, I guess you could also argue that there is little point in putting a tap in the boiler as you will already have highly-developed siphoning skills. In this case, a stainless racking cane would be money well spent. 

Personally, I've gone down the (predictable) tap route via a short-lived play with siphons and sometimes - only sometimes - wondered how different life would have been without taps and *with* a good racking cane. In retrospect, I should never have taken my Facile Syphon anywhere near hot wort...


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## Thirsty Boy (24/3/09)

I think your bag material looks about exactly the same as mine - as long as the fact that it is a mesh is visible to your naked eye, its fine.

Method for me is - 

wok rack in bottom of pot
All water into pot
Water heated to 2 C above desired mash temp
Bag into pot, recheck temp and adjust
grain poured into bag and stirred
Temperature check at 10min (stir before measure) adjust back to mash temp if its dropped very far (stirring constantly while adding heat)
Maybe another temp check at 30 min... probably not
Mash for 60 min
Stirring constantly raise to 76-78C
pull out bag and squeeze/drain
boil
chill or No-Chill

Expect to get about 70% efficiency the first time and be only a little surprised if it a few points either side. Have some dme on hand.

And it obviously works even if you vary quite significantly from that - so dont stress, just brew it and see how you go.

TB


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## codzilla (24/3/09)

katzke said:


> That would be disrespectful of the flag and all those that died for it. Even the ones that died so you do not have to speak Japanese now.
> 
> But you do what you want with the Aussie flag.



Here, Here,, our 20`s knowitalls are pretty much "soft cock society". You WOULD NOT want to be in the trenches with them. They can talk , just cant walk.


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## Mantis (24/3/09)

codzilla said:


> Here, Here,, our 20`s knowitalls are pretty much "soft cock society". You WOULD NOT want to be in the trenches with them. They can talk , just cant walk.



Really no need for this crap, is there :icon_offtopic:


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## daddymem (24/3/09)

Well, I got a 50 foot wort chiller for a song so it looks like I won't be no chill. Which is fine, I'm on a well with water all around me, I'll use it for my gardens and send it right back through the sand down into the aquifer below me. Now just waiting on the pot and chiller to arrive.


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## daddymem (25/3/09)

Questions:

Why 90 minutes for the mash. Is this recipe specific for the Schwarzbier the BIAB directions are based on or a BIAB thing due to a thin mash? (Does our US Domestic 2-row change that?)

Why 90 minute boil? Again, Schwarzbier specific or BIAB specific?

How much of a squeeze do I do on the bag to avoid astringency yet get out the wort?

Pot is still on the way, and the wort chiller is shipped so it may be this weekend or the next.

Thanks guys!


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## SpillsMostOfIt (25/3/09)

Daddymem said:


> Questions:
> 
> Why 90 minutes for the mash. Is this recipe specific for the Schwarzbier the BIAB directions are based on or a BIAB thing due to a thin mash? (Does our US Domestic 2-row change that?)
> 
> ...




I believe the 90min mash is to ensure that you get complete *mashification* of your starches to sugars. I would expect the first time I do anything to get it approximately wrong and so if someone gives me a procedure to reduce the possibilities, I would be pleased. You might have temperatures all over the place or not be stirring enough or have weirdo malt, etc, etc. I see this as a reasonable if not totally necessary instruction to someone who hasn't done it before and know exactly what to expect. I usually mash my beers for about an hour.

90min boil could be for all sorts of reasons. I (nearly) always boil for 90 mins. I tell myself that it is to ensure no DMS precursors and the like. In my case, it is just that that is the way I do it. I don't know if the Schwarzbier recipe depends on the long boil for more black/brown-ness to come from the boil, but I am told by everyone who makes it that it is a decent recipe.

In one sense, BIAB is purely a wort preparation technique. In another sense, it is just a mashing technique. I reckon that once the bag is out and you've got the kettle boiling, the process is the same as the multi-vesselers use and so is effectively the same. 

I do not believe that squeezing the bag will give you any astringency at all. I believe that will come from an imperfect pH balance. I have moved from not squeezing at all to squeezing like a crazed mega-brewer and the beers don't appear to have suffered from it...


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## daddymem (25/3/09)

I'm planning on following the guide, but I'm an engineer so I just gotta know why. 

Thanks again Spills, I wouldn't mind raising a glass with you if we lived in the same area on the same big island.


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## katzke (25/3/09)

Daddymem said:


> I'm planning on following the guide, but I'm an engineer so I just gotta know why.
> 
> Thanks again Spills, I wouldn't mind raising a glass with you if we lived in the same area on the same big island.



Not to mention the same day.


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## daddymem (25/3/09)

Hehe. One of the main reasons to be on this board...I know tomorrow will come when I see post here from then. ;P


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## Thirsty Boy (25/3/09)

The only place I would possibly not follow the guide - is where it tells you to put in your grain, then heat it up to mash temp. I am aware that some people do it this way (SDJ from his description is one) and it'll work. But I think it is not the most widely practiced method.

Heating the water up to a couple of degrees &copy; higher than mash temp, then adding the grain is probably the more frequently used technique. Also easier to do IMHO.

Apart from that - stir - stir well before taking a temperature and stir constantly at any time you are adding heat to the pot when the grains are in it

And it'll be fine - even if you ignore me, it'll still be fine.

TB

(PS - do not drink with Spills, he is bad for your liver)


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## PistolPatch (26/3/09)

Yep, Thirsty is right. Add the grain after NOT before. You won't have any dough-ball problems.

Unfortunately, when writing the original guide, I was in a rush and was trying to make things ridiculously simple. It was a lot easier to write throwing the grain in first (which I thought would work) than writing about strike temperatures and adding 1-2 degrees on those!

I have written several warnings about my lapse but they are all too easy to missl

So, heat your water before adding the grain.

Spot,
Pat


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## Cocko (26/3/09)

Well, there it is Daddymem, direct from the sources!!

I am 20+ BIAB's in with the advice from these 2 gentlemen, others of course on many other issues of brewing but BIAB the 2 men have posted for you!! 

You have one choice and one choice only, report back with photos, stats and stories of your first BIAB brew day...

GO!


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## daddymem (26/3/09)

Cool, got it straight from the source. Here's my new brew day plan. I have also been futzing with the recipe and have settled on the Blonde style of beer. (with 65% efficiency

Willam's Notty Blonde Ambition
10 pounds 2-row
1 pound Carapils
152F for the 90 Minutes
Hops:
2 oz Willamette for 60 min

Put wok grate in bottom of pot
Pot 7 gallons water, turn burner on
Attach grain bag in the pot
Raise temperature to 154F
Begin filling grains, dropping from a reasonable height, and stirring vigorously to break up any dry spots
Check temperature for target: 152F Add heat if needed-start mash time-flame out
Put lid on kettle 
For first 20 minutes agitate and check temperature every 5 minutes
Turn on burner when temperature drops to 150F (around 40 minute mark potentially)
Bring to 155F. Flameout for remaining time 
At 90 minutes, flame on full
Raise bag above kettle water, give a little twirl and squeeze
Place bag into bucket after it stops dripping
Suspend bag over bucket to drain out squeeze at 10 minutes drain liquid back to kettle
Determine volume of boil and specific gravity (use a ruler for depth and convert with volume per inch and assume 95%) Adjust gravity for temperature.

Bring to a boil and start 90 minutes
All hops @ 30 minutes 
Irish Moss @ 80 minutes


*Blonde Ale*

Min Max Yours Status 
OG 1.038 1.054 1.047





FG 1.008 1.013 1.012




IBUs 15.0 28.0 27.4




SRM 3.0 6.0 4.9




ABV % 3.8 5.5 4.6




Overall Brew Status





Pot should arrive today, have to sew the bag up to fit the pot. Wort Chiller hopefully arrives in a day or two. If kid doesn't pop out soon, I should be able to brew this weekend, if not the next.


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## bonj (26/3/09)

The 90 minute boil does a number of things. The most important of these is it allows time to drive off DMS precursors, and reduces haze in the finished beer. For more in-depth information about the haze reducing side of it, this is a very good article: LINKY


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## Bribie G (26/3/09)

Good to see you back Pistol. 
One reason for a 90 minute boil is that according to many authors (including the laterst CAMRA brew your own British Real Ale which is based on info given by breweries themselves) is that it actually takes that amount of time to fully isomerise the bittering hops. I have recently started 90 min hopping and boy it's fantastic (even went _over hopped_ on one brew with just 20g of Chinook). And it's a smooth bitterness, not astringent.


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## daddymem (26/3/09)

BribieG said:


> Good to see you back Pistol.
> One reason for a 90 minute boil is that according to many authors (including the laterst CAMRA brew your own British Real Ale which is based on info given by breweries themselves) is that it actually takes that amount of time to fully isomerise the bittering hops. I have recently started 90 min hopping and boy it's fantastic (even went _over hopped_ on one brew with just 20g of Chinook). And it's a smooth bitterness, not astringent.



So by my calculators, I could do 1.5 oz of hops for the full 90 minutes and end up with 22 IBUs, within the standards for Blondes (15-28 IBUs). If I go with the 2 oz full the full 90 minutes I end up with 29.4 just outside the standards. I love hops but I don't want to bury the Blonde flavors too much.


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## Thirsty Boy (27/3/09)

One of the best reasons to use a 90 min boil is for process purposes -

You bring the kettle up to the boil, which mixes it throughly, flame off for a few seconds to take a volume measurement and a sample - cool it down and test it for gravity. You then know, before you have added any hops, whether you have hit your target volumes and gravities.

This gives you a chance to adjust via a DME or water addition and/or to re-calculate the amount of hops you are going to use if you decide not to adjust the wort.

You get 30mins to cool your sample and crunch the numbers before you hit the 60min mark

You can still add some of your hops at 90 minutes to take advantage of a bit of extra utilisation - but save a proportion for a 60min bittering addition so that you give yourself an opportunity to make changes on the fly

Good = Maybe a better break and better clarity, probably a better result with forming and driving away DMS, most likely better utilisation of your hops, flexibility and an opportunity to tweak your brew, maybe more chance for the formation of melanoidins which give flavour and colour

Bad = More chance for the formation of melanoidins which give flavour and colour (not good in say your blonde), more time, more gas (maybe you waste all the money you save on hops by increasing your LPG use by 50%)


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## Cocko (27/3/09)

Thirsty,

Just out of interest do you follow this method? I agree it all makes sense and is an advantage to achieving the desired..

But do you do a 90 minute boil?

Not being smart, by all means, just curious?


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## Thirsty Boy (28/3/09)

Cocko said:


> Thirsty,
> 
> Just out of interest do you follow this method? I agree it all makes sense and is an advantage to achieving the desired..
> 
> ...



every time


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## Cocko (28/3/09)

Well it looks like I do too... now.  

Cheers, AGAIN!!


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## marksfish (28/3/09)

did my second biab 2nite and hit 70 effiency. both brews have done this so dont stress this point. i squeeze the BEJESUS out of the bag and have no tannin problems so far.(touch wood). i did a 90 minute mash and a 90 min boil but not for any specific reason just that i kept thinking one more beer then ill check it! :lol: dont let anyone tell you biab doesnt work because in my admittedly limited experiance it works just fine and leaves an extract brew miles behind. if you start feeling stressed at all just remember the golden rule relax drink another homebrew.


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## daddymem (29/3/09)

Almost all the pieces are together. My immersion chiller is on a truck on the way to my house today. I got the pot. I've got 95% of the things I need for a hop bag setup. I got all the pieces for my aerator autosiphon. I got the thread for my bag and measured up the voile to cut and sew it together. Now I just need my wife to have that baby.


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## daddymem (4/4/09)

Looks like today could be the day!


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## daddymem (5/4/09)

Today was the day. I'll post pics and notes after the Bruins game.


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## daddymem (5/4/09)

Here are my notes:
Started at 9:15
put 7" (7 gallons) of water in pot
Put wok grate in bottom attached to a chain to lift it out later
Put grain bag in, attached with binder clips
Put two thermometers in (floating and dial)
Brought up to 154F
Dropped grains in at 10:00
Mash had dropped to 150F(-2F) so added heat.
10:05 mash was at 154F (+2F)
Noted dial thermometer is off by 4F+
10:10 152F
10:20 150F added heat
10:25 152F heat off
10:45 150F added heat
10:53 156F
11:15 150F
11:20 148F flame on
11:30 grains removed flame on high
put hopsock in

6.25 inches=6.25 gallons. 95%=5.93 gallons (lost 1.07 gallons to grain)
Added in water from bucket under bag, forgot to adjust water volume
Took sample, put in refrigerator for gravity reading later

11:48 rolling boil started
11:48 hops added to hopsock
12:58 Irish moss and immersion chiller added to the wort
1:08 flame off, water turned on to immersion chiller, hop sock wrung and hung over boilpot
Forgot to time wort chill, but it was quick.
Brought pot into house, began whirlpool
Forgot to check time, siphoned into cleaned and sanitized fermenter
Autosiphon aerator did not work used standard autosiphon
Needed just over 1/2 gallon to bring to 5 gallons
Gravity reading=1.054
Gravity reading out of [email protected]+.002 correction=1.050.

I believe that I have 69% efficiency? I used Brewmasterswarehous.com recipe formulator and fiddled around until I got the gravity to match what I got. Is that correct?

OG 1.038 1.054 1.054 OK
FG 1.008 1.013 1.014 Out of Range
IBUs 15.0 28.0 27.6 OK
SRM 3.0 6.0 4.9 OK
ABV % 3.8 5.5 5.2 OK
Overall Brew Status Out of Range

With the IBUs off I'll add "Strong" to the title 
<b>
Willam's Notty Strong Blonde Ambition</b>
10 pounds 2-row
1 pound Carapils
152F for the 90 Minutes BIAB mash
Hops:
2 oz Willamette for 90 min
1 tsp Irish Moss for 10 min






My setup. Turkey fryer base. 60qt Aluminum pot.




The bag in the pot.




The water heating up to 154F.




You can see the wok grate at the bottom. I don't think it is needed.




My grain from Morebeer. 10# of 2-row.




Morebeer milled it for me, I'll be making a pasta mill soon.




A pound of carapils.




My mash.




My mash covered up.




Colander in the bottom of a bucket to receive the drain water from the grain bag.


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## daddymem (5/4/09)

DIY hop sock bracket.




Closeup of the hop sock bracket.




Hop sock (4 gallon paint strainer bag.)




Mashing out, ready to take out the bag.




Lifting the bag. Not very heavy. Will the bag hold? (I sewed it myself on a 1941 Singer sewing machine)




Out come the grains.




A few twists of the bag to drain out the wort.




Takes a couple minutes to drain out.




See? Light enough to one arm lift it.




Just about drained out.


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## daddymem (5/4/09)

The wort is a bit cloudier than I am used to.




The grains in a bucket, draining over the colander.




The wok grate came out easy attached to the chain.




What drained out of bag.




Willamette hops, 20z.




Hop sock ready to go.




Final 10 minutes of the boil, the immersion chiller is sanitized. 




The hop residue left in the hop sack.




Just whirlpooled.




Covered while the whirlpool settles down.

<b>Final Thoughts</b>
Pretty easy.
Didn't take much more time than my normal extract operations.
The temp fluctuations were a bit of a pain. It was windy and cold out so warmer temperatures should make it easier. I wonder if holding a very low flame under it would work better.
I don't think the wok grate did much, I'll skip it next time.
What was my brew house efficiency? I hit my final estimated gravity for 69% efficiency...after adding ~1/2 gallon of water to the wort, looks like I did pretty good.
I noticed a bit more water in the grains when I dumped them. I think a little more care in the draining will get me that 1/2 gallon back.

I'll be doing this again.


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## glennheinzel (5/4/09)

Congratulations on your expanding family and your first BIAB.


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## katzke (5/4/09)

Wrapping the kettle with an old blanket will help with the heat loss.


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## daddymem (26/4/09)

I'm going to attempt BIAB #2 for me. I ordered my supplies from Austin Homebrew Supply and requested a finer grind for BIAB. I didn't get a response at all, and I don't think they did it. I want to improve my efficiency. I got 69% last time. So...
Does this look like a fine enough mill? 
How fine a mill works best? Got any pictures? 
I'm trying to get a pasta maker to turn into a mill but our Michael's has been out of it. Until I get one, could I run the grains through a food proccesor to get a finer mill?
If I borrow a barley crusher (I'm hoping I can), what setting would be best?





















Thanks,
Yankee BIAB


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## Thirsty Boy (27/4/09)

That looks like pretty nice crush to me... if you were using a standard mash tun. Lots of nice intact grain hulls, which you don't need. If thats milled especially fine, then their normal crush must be pretty conservative.

Whats good for BiaB? ... hard to say really. I doubt there is a a point at which it will be too fine. Perhaps if it were milled to 100% flour, then the husk material would be fine enough to get through the mesh in significant amounts - and that might be bad. But short of that... crush till you are scared.

You just need to be aware of the fact, that if your pH gets out of control (high) and you end up in tannin extraction territory, it going to be worse with a very fine crush due to the increased surface area.

So - keep a wary taste bud out for astringency - and if you notice it, then look at your pH levels - if you cant get it under control, then it might be time to think about backing off your crush a little as well. But, I really don't think you will have an issue.

Your bag will of course drain a little slower if everything is mushed up fine... but thats not a big deal.

TB


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## reviled (27/4/09)

Look at the strong man lifting that big heavy bag of grain with one hand  

note : was not mocking you daddymem, more the people who say a bag of wet grain is too heavy for their wittle arms :lol:


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## daddymem (28/4/09)

I bet it's so light because all those nasty tannins leached out into my kettle! The horror!


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## WarmBeer (28/4/09)

Daddymem said:


> I bet it's so light because all those nasty tannins leached out into my kettle! The horror!



Congratulations! Ladies and gentlemen, we have a seppo who seems to understand the Aussie sense of humour 

Welcome to the club mate, you'll be riding a kangaroo down Bourke street, playing a didgeredoo, and tickling funnel-webs for fun in no time at all.


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## KingPython (28/4/09)

Pssh you looks to be part of a militia of some sort, used to cutting wood and hunting deer with a knife . Not typing on keyboards for a living.


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## daddymem (28/4/09)

I am a Swamp Yankee.


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## reviled (28/4/09)

Daddymem said:


> I am a Swamp Yankee.



Even this part?

"At one time Swamp Yankees even had their own variety of isolated country music"


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## KingPython (28/4/09)

Interesting I guess when you hear Yankee you automatically assume New York City.


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## daddymem (28/4/09)

reviled said:


> Even this part?
> 
> "At one time Swamp Yankees even had their own variety of isolated country music"



Yep, can of beans and a can of brown bread and the troops form their own band within the hour.


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## daddymem (4/5/09)

I think I nailed it today on my second BIAB. If my calculations are correct (feel free to let me know if they aren't), I hit 90% efficiency theoretically.

Here goes:
6 lb 2-row
11 oz caramel 60
6 oz caramel 120
3 oz Chocolate
3 oz Brown

7 gallons went into the pot and I got 6.625 gallons at the end of mash (my pot is 1" per gallon so 6-5/8"). If I take 95% for it being hot I get 6.29 gallons. My hydrometer read 1.030 at 118F which gets corrected 0.008 for 1.038. Crunching those numbers in my software and fiddling with efficiency until my gravity equals the gravity in the software, I get to 90%. Is that possible?

It went much smoother this time, I used a blanket to wrap the kettle and only had to add heat in the last 15 minutes of the 90 minute mash. My SG ended up 1.043 for 5 gallons which is higher than the recipe which was 1.037. I used 1/2# more of the 2-row since that was the quantities I ended up with in my purchases.


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## PistolPatch (4/5/09)

Good to see you have been enjoying the BIAB daddymen :icon_cheers:

90% is possible after the mash but BIAB will give you more trub in the kettle so don't get too excited about the 90% figure. I usually get around 85% into the kettle efficiency which is what you have measured. This figure keeps dropping as you progress through the brew and fermentation. Dodgy hydrometers, measuring devices and measuring practices can throw efficiency figures way out and they are a poor form of communication amongst brewers.

What is important is how much _*clear*_ beer you get to drink and at what _*alcohol percentage*_ it is. So, the most honest efficiency figure is "into packaging," efficiency. No brewer likes to quote it though as it is the lowest one - sometimes as low as 50% for both BIAB and traditional brewers.

BIAB will alway score higher a higher efficiency into the kettle the same as no-chill will always score higher into the fermenter - there is more trub in both cases.

At the end of the day though, a recipe that is BIABed or BIABed and no-chilled will give you the same amount of clear beer into the keg or bottles using the same quantity of grain.

A comprehensive set of BIAB FAQ's is currently being written and the area of efficiency is being well-addressed.

Until then, make sure you have reliable measuring equipment and have scared yourself substantially by reading this thread

It sounds as though you are on the right track though  

Cheers,
Pat


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## Cocko (4/5/09)

PistolPatch said:


> A comprehensive set of BIAB FAQ's is currently being written and the area of efficiency is being well-addressed.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pat



Awesome work PP, above and beyond AGAIN!! Can't wait to read said document!

I am only packin 25 batches under my belt but if I can help in any way to spread the love let me know!

Oh and OT: Great fickin work DM - Work it! Well done.


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## daddymem (4/5/09)

Awesome. Thanks AHB.com!


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## PistolPatch (5/5/09)

Thanks Cocko - really appreciated.

Just saw something though and apologies to daddyment for not noticing it before...

I think the crush they have given you is very uneven. Maybe I am being pedantic but on some sides of your photos I see flour and on the other sides I see husks and some are unbroken.

The top right of your third picture looks OK.

In summary though, I think this crush is quite erratic - crushing half and flouring the rest. Anyone else see that?


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## daddymem (5/5/09)

PistolPatch said:


> Thanks Cocko - really appreciated.
> 
> Just saw something though and apologies to daddyment for not noticing it before...
> 
> ...




That's OK, I forgot to mention something. Since my buddy has his whizz-bang barley crusher available, I ran my grains throught it a second time. If I wasn't a scatterbrain I might have brought my camera to take a purty picture of it.


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## Thirsty Boy (5/5/09)

I disagree with Pat almost completely when it comes to efficiency, what it is for and how it is and or isn't useful to a brewer - BUT - this isn't the place to get into that, its been talked to death before and will be again.

Pat's point (which I do agree with) is that you need to know what you mean by efficiency, how it applies to _your_ brew set-up, what another brewer might mean by efficiency if you are trying to compare things - and how to translate between the two.

Its pretty easy - and I suspect you are already talking about efficiency in the manner it is most commonly talked about - but it is good to be aware that this might not always be the case when the "e" word is bandied about.


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## daddymem (5/5/09)

Not exactly a flag, but the patriotic themed quilt should make this a great brew, no?


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## daddymem (5/5/09)

The way I see efficiency is that you use it for a benchmark to hit your goals. Frankly, it doesn't matter how you calculate it, as long as you do it the same every time. Just knowing what you put in your brew and what results that will give you can help when you want to hit a certain goal. Like if you know you need to put an extra 10% grains in to hit your recipe targets normally. I think the consensus is that I hit 82% pre-ferment. I ran Palmer's hand calculations then reverified that with brewmaster's warehouse and a fellow blogger triple checked with Beer Smith. Now if I can get my grains crushed better...I've got a Dunkelweizen that didn't get crushed enough either. I am contemplating using a rolling pin on them. Any suggestions? I do have plans on getting a pasta mill to convert over to a grain mill as soon as the craft store decides to restock that item.


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## PistolPatch (12/5/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I disagree with Pat almost completely when it comes to efficiency, what it is for and how it is and or isn't useful to a brewer - BUT - this isn't the place to get into that, its been talked to death before and will be again.
> 
> Pat's point (which I do agree with) is that you need to know what you mean by efficiency, how it applies to _your_ brew set-up, what another brewer might mean by efficiency if you are trying to compare things - and how to translate between the two.
> 
> Its pretty easy - and I suspect you are already talking about efficiency in the manner it is most commonly talked about - but it is good to be aware that this might not always be the case when the "e" word is bandied about.



[Thirsty sent me an email after he wrote the above which was goading me into replying (in fun) as we always argue about efficiency. Here is my belated reply...]

Sorry Thirsty - I'm a bit slow to reply as I have spent the last 6 weeks editing those BIAB FAQs you sent me. My goodness! 

Now, please explain where and why you disagree with me, 'almost completely,' on efficiency.

You dig yourself out of that hole while I get on with the real work  

Let's face it mate, you have brewed about 15 batches of mini-BIAB's (How small are they again?) whilst I have brewed over 50 batches both 23 and 46lts. I _*know*_ that I am right and you are wrong!!!

LOL,
Pat

P.S. And don't go trying to misquote me or obfuscate things. Write some stuff a new brewer will understand :lol: Oh and did you solve that little problem I emailed you tonight? LOL! 

Ha! That'll keep him busy!

Edit: Daddymen, will PM you.


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## Thirsty Boy (13/5/09)

> Now, please explain where and why you disagree with me, 'almost completely,' on efficiency.


Well, I think its easy to understand, not hard to measure, worth pursuing (up to a point) and that the least useful sort of efficiency to talk about is your packaged beer efficiency --- thats nearly completely isn't it?



> Let's face it mate, you have brewed about 15 batches of mini-BIAB's (How small are they again?) whilst I have brewed over 50 batches both 23 and 46lts. I _*know*_ that I am right and you are wrong!!!


I'll have you know that many of those batches were up to and including a massive 12L ..... I also credit myself with BIAB brews when I participate in a brew at Spill's place and some of them were traditional double batches. So I have brewed BIAB batches from 6L all the way up to 50L. I have brewed double decoction, jump mash, reverse mash, high adjunct, cereal mash, comprehensive step mash and continuous ramp mash during those brews. So I might not have the numbers big fella, but I got a _variety_ of experience.

As for you knowing you are right... I say phooey to that and I point to your own words as proof



> Sorry Thirsty - I'm a bit slow to reply as I have spent the last 6 weeks editing those BIAB FAQs you sent me. My goodness!


Six weeks to edit the FAQ's I wrote in 6 hours !!!! - You are either chiseling them in stone or you are obviously a bit slow is all I can say.

Take no notice of Pat Daddymem - he is delusional from sitting up late at nights trying to work out how to commit to pen and paper - in a manner understandable to normal human beings - his convoluted and delusional theories on efficiency. Humor him and back slowly towards the door 

You in the meantime are ignoring all of us and doing a sterling job of brewing some beer. Another soldier enlisted in the BIAB foreign legions.

Onwards to victory and eternal glory.......................... or something like that anyway

TB


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## daddymem (13/5/09)

I'm wondering if I was meant to be Aussie 'coz the humor is not lost on me. Anywhos, got a dunkelweizen BIAB to do tomorrow. My Blonde came out...spectacular!





Appearance:
Slight haze, could be chill haze or BIAB, not detracting but haze still. 1/2 finger head, nice slow stream of bubbles coming up inside the glass. Looks like a few more days will help the carb. The foamy head cathedrals on the side of the glass slightly, the pillow stays intact as you raise and lower the glass.

Smell:
Yeasty, bready, earthy.

Taste:
Light, low bitterness, low sweetness, very pleasing taste.

Mouthfeel:
Thin, watery, light carbonation tickles the tongue.

Drinkability:
This one is a refreshing drinker. This would be great on a hot night. At 5.6% these could probably sneak up on you easily. I can't believe I brewed this one. It tastes like something you would buy at the liquor store. YES!


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## reviled (13/5/09)

Daddymem said:


> I can't believe I brewed this one. It tastes like something you would buy at the liquor store. YES!



Isnt that the best part?  Good stuff mate!


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## Bribie G (13/5/09)

I have no scientific basis, just a hunch that BIAB brews can often turn out a bit more chill hazy than their 3 vessel counterparts due to more gunk carrying over into the kettle, perhaps more polyphenols in the finished beer etc. Personally I have found that brews where I don't use Polyclar (PVVP) do turn out chill hazed and brews where I do use the stuff come out nice and clear. I also seem to get clearer beer when using a fair whack of cereal adjuncts, especially rice.

On the subject of efficiency I've just received a batch of malt from CraftBrewer that they put through the mill twice for me, to see what happens with the finer crush. Off into the brewhouse shortly. :icon_cheers:


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## reviled (13/5/09)

BribieG said:


> I have no scientific basis, just a hunch that BIAB brews can often turn out a bit more chill hazy than their 3 vessel counterparts due to more gunk carrying over into the kettle, perhaps more polyphenols in the finished beer etc. Personally I have found that brews where I don't use Polyclar (PVVP) do turn out chill hazed and brews where I do use the stuff come out nice and clear. I also seem to get clearer beer when using a fair whack of cereal adjuncts, especially rice.
> 
> On the subject of efficiency I've just received a batch of malt from CraftBrewer that they put through the mill twice for me, to see what happens with the finer crush. Off into the brewhouse shortly. :icon_cheers:



I also reckon BIAB is a contributor to chill haze due to the amount of protein that gets into the batch, with traditional brewing the grain bed acts like a filter and after the sparge you can see all this grey protein material has been caught by the grain bed, in BIAB, all of this stuff is going straight into the kettle...

This can be combated by Mash PH and kettle finings ive found, as I wasnt getting chill haze in my dark beers, and since ive got a PH meter have been adjusting the PH down to the 5.5-5.6 range and allthough I still get slight haze, the beer is still see through and as far as im concerned its bright enough  I used to use gelatine but I dont find I need to anymore with a PH adjust and some carageenan...


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## PistolPatch (13/5/09)

Daddymem said:


> I'm wondering if I was meant to be Aussie 'coz the humor is not lost on me. Anywhos, got a dunkelweizen BIAB to do tomorrow. My Blonde came out...spectacular!



Good on you Daddymem on both counts! Glad to see you get the Aussie humour (I'll get to Thirsty in a minute) and well done on brewing your blonde. Top description mate!

*Chill Haze* Don't worry guys, it is not a BIAB thing. GryphonBrewing (fly-sparger) and myself both had a haze experience at the same time - something he or I had never had before. I'll ask him to comment on this as he will write better than myself. Varying qualities of grain had something to do with it.

*ThirstyBoy* LOL  I am really angry now but!

All I can say is that my kettles (all two of them) are way bigger than yours and, and, ummm, ummm, oh yeah, here is why I am the bestest on efficiency advice! (BTW, thanks for your email this morning. Will see if those figures can bring us some joy right now. Spot!)

LOL and good to see daddy's beer in the glass,
Pat


----------



## Phoney (13/5/09)

Thanks Daddymen for posting all of your detailed info + pics.  You've inspired me to replicate what you have done!

Cheers


----------



## Online Brewing Supplies (14/5/09)

PistolPatch said:


> Good on you Daddymem on both counts! Glad to see you get the Aussie humour (I'll get to Thirsty in a minute) and well done on brewing your blonde. Top description mate!
> 
> *Chill Haze* Don't worry guys, it is not a BIAB thing. GryphonBrewing (fly-sparger) and myself both had a haze experience at the same time - something he or I had never had before. I'll ask him to comment on this as he will write better than myself. Varying qualities of grain had something to do with it.


Yep we all get chill haze even us non BIAB experts.  First, malt quality springs to mind, higher protein contents etc.When you have high molecular proteins from the grain that are not broken down, in my case broken down (not) by a protein rest, this results in a precursor to chill haze.During the malt shortages I did notice I was getting more chill haze, I suspect the the maltster's were dropping their spec's to get enough malting barley.
Tannins will also throw a haze.Again a pH and temp thing.
The lack of removal of break material both hot and cold also contributes to the haze mystery.This could be more relevant to Biab practices.Though if the process I mention below is done properly it should be easy enough to remedy.
Pat thats why I am so anal about whirl pooling and letting it settle very well at the end of the boil. so it doesn't/limits transfer to the fermentor.
The pH of the boil should be around the 5-5.2 mark, much higher and you will not get a good break.
Haze is not a subject that is easy to answer with a single suggestion , its very complicated but if you consider the above you are on the way to removing it.
GB
EDSP)


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## bonj (14/5/09)

This is a great article on the nature and formation of beer hazes, which mentions much of what Gryphon mentioned above. It's a good read actually.


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## Online Brewing Supplies (14/5/09)

Bonj said:


> This is a great article on the nature and formation of beer hazes, which mentions much of what Gryphon mentioned above. It's a good read actually.


Linky ?Then it will be a good read . :unsure: 
GB


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## bonj (14/5/09)

Oh crap...  :lol:

http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/pdf/know...eBeer_Hazes.pdf


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## pdilley (14/5/09)

BribieG,

This guy said you are trying to mess him over and he is quite upset and he's looking for you.





Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Online Brewing Supplies (14/5/09)

Bonj said:


> Oh crap...  :lol:
> 
> http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/pdf/know...eBeer_Hazes.pdf


Nice link and I have book marked that for later reading.
GB


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## daddymem (20/5/09)

So I am about to order up another recipe to BIAB. The place I am ordering from will mill the grains however I want them. They can use the standard crush and run it through twice or set the gap to what I request. What would be my best bet?

TIA


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## crundle (20/5/09)

Either is good, but the key is to be able to get the same again and again. For repeatability without doing it yourself, I would probably opt for running through twice on standard setting.

I am currently corresponding with Pat on the issue of efficiency also, in an attempt to determine what my efficiency is, where to measure it etc. I had my last grain bill run through twice and did notice a higher starting gravity than I expected to get (measured at the same point as all my other brews) so I think it will make a difference, but as to how much, well that may take some experimentation to determine.

The main thing is that you are happy with your beers, and as long as you can reach the gravities you are targeting, you are doing fine.

cheers,

Crundle


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## daddymem (16/7/09)

Still happy with my BIAB beers, on number 5 now. But I have a question about hot break. I've seen hot break in AG that looks like large corn flakes. But none of my BIAB brews have large particles, just lots of small clumps like baby rice cereal. Is hot break for BIAB different? No problems the beers all settle out nice, just curious.


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## Bribie G (16/7/09)

Yes mine always looks like little breadcrumbs swirling around, I use whirlfloc and they settle out very well. Never seen the 'big' variety.


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## daddymem (16/7/09)

Thanks! Wonder what the science is behind that...


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## pdilley (16/7/09)

pH related. I wonder if thats why my last BIAB really didn't hot break like the previous. A pH meter is on my wishist bu would have come in handy to check it then and there and build up a series of samples. The grain bill was the same, just switched brands and barley type to local Australian grown malts.


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## PistolPatch (16/7/09)

Pete, why not grab a pH roll? I have had one of these for at least 50 brews and it is only running out now. From what I gather, the pH meters can go downhill quickly.

I now just use acidulated malt to adjust and I probably don't even really need the pH paper anymore for every brew as I now know what works for each recipe (and there isn't much variance).

Interesting on the flakes Daddy. I know what you are talking about but can't remember which brews I get them on and which I don't as most of the time, I'm not looking. I can't imagine it is anything to worry about and I doubt it is BIAB related because I know I have seen both. I'll ask GryphonBrewing and get him to post here if he knows if there is a significance.

:icon_cheers: 
Pat


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## pdilley (16/7/09)

Cheers PP

I looked at strips at the LHBS but like those they stopped at 5.0. For doing Mead work I wanted something that could give readings down into the 3's as well which is why I started to look at meters. I hear but no experience that the tips last about a year if you get a meter with replaceable tips that is. However I never got one as no one at the time was listing the replacement tips as being for sale let alone the cost for each replacement.

I'll consider the paper again if it really bugs me. In the meantime I've been in the dark but still getting great results so I dont know what I may be missing


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## daddymem (17/7/09)

pH would make sense. My brews at home are with my well water which has low pH for drinking water 6-6.5 from different labs. I've often wondered if I should be making an adjustment to at least bring it to normal drinking water standards. For potable water, the pH is mostly a problem for mechanicals, water heater and pipes, etc. But for beer, it has to have some effect. I find water adjustments for specific recipes, I'm more interested in should I get something to raise the starting pH for all my brews.


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## katzke (17/7/09)

Daddymem said:


> pH would make sense. My brews at home are with my well water which has low pH for drinking water 6-6.5 from different labs. I've often wondered if I should be making an adjustment to at least bring it to normal drinking water standards. For potable water, the pH is mostly a problem for mechanicals, water heater and pipes, etc. But for beer, it has to have some effect. I find water adjustments for specific recipes, I'm more interested in should I get something to raise the starting pH for all my brews.



Short answer, pH of the brewing water has little to do with what is going on in the mash.


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## PistolPatch (20/7/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> In the meantime I've been in the dark but still getting great results so I dont know what I may be missing



Sounds good Pete :icon_cheers: 

Don't expect too much though. As a generalisation, if your water tastes ok your beer will be ok. With average water, chances are pH won't make a spectacular difference to the taste of your beer especially if doing ales and dark lagers. This is a generalisation of course.

It's certainly good fun learning about pH and water chemistry and you may even be able to taste the difference especially if your palate grows or is already developed. I'm amazed at some new brewers ability to describe flavours, tastes etc. I can usually pick a difference but can never describe it 

When you do find a problem in your beer it is great to know a bit about chemistry etc. For example, quality of malt changes each year and you might suddenly find yourself getting problems you never had before. Knowing the basics of how boil length, mash length, pH and other things affect a brew can help to quickly adjust to changing conditions.

The main thing is when exploring these more advanced things to not lose the forest from the trees. It is important to find a great recipe that you like and brew this regularly. This way any changes you make can be done with this brew first.

For example, today a brewer rang me and had problems with not getting the maltiness coming through in their beer. They had raised their mash temperature after reading a theory that thin mashes (like BIAB) produce a more fermentable wort. This idea has been regularly thrown around in the main BIAB thread and they changed their regime due to this and advice from one person. It is a myth...



> Contrary to common belief no attenuation difference was seen between a thick mash (2.57 l/kg or 1.21 qt/lb) and a thin mash (5 l/kg or 2.37 qt/lb). Home brewing literature suggests that thin mashes lead to more fermentable worts, but technical brewing literature suggests that the mash concentration doesn't have much effect in well modified malts [Narziss, 2005]. Briggs cites data that doesn't show a change in fermentability when the mash thickness is changed [Briggs, 2004]. This was confirmed by these eperiments where all the data points were on the same curve that had already been established in the temperature experiment.



See here for full details.

So explore everything I reckon but be _*very*_ careful what advice you take and question it hard. There is a fair bit of silly advice thrown around that is never contradicted.

Very glad to hear that you are pleased with your brews to date and are keen on exploring even more.

Donya Pete :icon_cheers:


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## PistolPatch (20/7/09)

katzke said:


> Short answer, pH of the brewing water has little to do with what is going on in the mash.



You are obviously joking Tom. I'm going to chase up GB now who might give another quick lesson in pH if we're lucky


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## katzke (20/7/09)

PistolPatch said:


> You are obviously joking Tom. I'm going to chase up GB now who might give another quick lesson in pH if we're lucky



No joke at all.

Read what I wrote "Short answer, pH of the brewing water has little to do with what is going on in the mash."

The pH of the brewing water source has less to do with what goes on in the mash then the important brewing chemicals in the water. The big influence the pH has is how some calculations are made. I do not recall right now but at a level some assumptions of make up change. Yes it is all related that is why I said “little to do with”. It is the chemical reactions that occur in the mash that are ‘most important’ and you will not have any idea what will happen by pH alone.

That is why I said what I said. Adjusting the pH of the brewing water source is not a good idea at all. In fact it can do more harm then good as you can knock out the chemicals you want in the mash before you ever start to mash. It is the mash pH that is important not the source water pH.

Any blind adjustment to water is not a good idea unless you have the time and $ to keep brewing the same recipe over and over to get the results you want. It is best to know what is in your water, have a plan for treatment, and then make adjustments to get the profile you are after. Only then you will have a real good idea what your mash pH will be as well as the final taste profile of the beer.


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## Katherine (20/7/09)

katzke said:


> No joke at all.
> 
> Read what I wrote "Short answer, pH of the brewing water has little to do with what is going on in the mash."
> 
> ...




So are you saying that most of the brewers on here that adjust there ph are wasting there time?


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## Katherine (20/7/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> no - he is saying that adjusting the pH of your water is a waste of time.




Is it?


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## Thirsty Boy (20/7/09)

No - he is saying (correctly) that the pH of your water doesn't matter very much - it is the pH of your mash that matters. When you adjust your water, you should be adjusting the chemistry of the water so that your mash pH is correct, those adjustments may or may not have much at all to do with the pH of the water itself.

And mash pH predominantly effects efficiency anyway - unless it is way way off target, then it will have minimal effect on flavour or anything much else.

Yeah yeah - I know it of course does have an effect on nearly everything in the mashing process... just not a large one. The oft mentioned 5.2 is a compromise between different processes that have different optimum pH levels and to be realistic about it, hitting a few points either side of it is going to make bugger all difference. As I said, mainly a marginal effect on efficiency.

PS sorry Katie - I had a wrong button pushing moment and thought I deleted my incomplete post before anyone would have seen it.


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## daddymem (20/7/09)

I get making adjustments to meet a particular water profile. What I am saying is that my water has low pH to start with. Wouldn't a boost to 7 to put the water at a "normal" pH be a good idea? I'm not interested in diving in the deep end of water chemistry-yet. Just wondering if it would be a good idea to bring water that is a "off" back to "normal."
This is my water report:



Would manganese cause off flavors? I know my water is high and I have these low level off flavors in some of my beers. Hard to describe, even with a table of off flavor descriptions in front of you. Most people don't taste it but I do.,


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## daddymem (20/7/09)

Oh and being fairly low in the other minerals, does that suggest a need for adjustment too?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (20/7/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> No - he is saying (correctly) that the pH of your water doesn't matter very much - it is the pH of your mash that matters.
> 
> And mash pH predominantly effects efficiency anyway - unless it is way way off target, then it will have minimal effect on flavour or anything much else.
> 
> ...


 I can see where both of you are coming from but I think its confusing the issue. If you dont know the pH of your brewing liquor (water ), how are you going to correct it ?

TB:"Doesn't matter very much" . 

So from your original water profile you don't take into account its residual alkalinity and temporary hardness ? 

If you ignore this, you are just guessing at resulting mash pH.I think this is putting out the wrong message to new brewers. I believe this is the not intention , but still its confusing. You have to start with the original water profile then adjust to gain maximum benefits in process and efficiency.It does have a large effect, to start off ignoring this I believe is the wrong approach.

Quote TB :When you adjust your water, you should be adjusting the chemistry of the water so that your mash pH is correct, those adjustments may or may not have much at all to do with the pH of the water itself." 

So adding Calcium ions, magnesium ions etc will not affect water pH ? 

Please keep it simple for every body.Water pH is very important and should not be made insignificant.

New Biab brewers should aim to add their grain then confirm that the pH is with in 5.2-5.6 pH. This is only the beginning but the best way to start to explore water chemistry and resultant pH and its effects on the brewing process. 

John Palmer in his online book "How to brew" has a very good intro into water chemistry and is a great place to start.
GB


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## Thirsty Boy (21/7/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I can see where both of you are coming from but I think its confusing the issue. If you dont know the pH of your brewing liquor (water ), how are you going to correct it ?
> 
> TB:"Doesn't matter very much" .
> 
> ...



I am keeping it simple - mash pH is important to get good efficiency. But the pH of your water is not one of the key indicators of whether your mash pH is going to be high or low. And doing what Daddyem suggests and adjusting his water pH because it is a little low ... may well not make any difference to his mash pH nor the effectiveness of his brewing process. That - was the original thrust of the question Katzke and I were addressing. Adjusting the _pH_ of your water. Not adjusting your water perse.

All this residual alkalinity and temporary hardness stuff - now thats confusing! ALL of it influences your brewing only inasmuch as it affects your mash pH. And all of the nomographs etc etc are only tools so you can take a guess at what minerals to add to your mash water - not to affect its ph - but to affect how it will react, with the sorts of malts you are going to use - which will affect your mash pH, so that you can get it to around 5.2.

oh - and adding Ca or Mg will not particularly affect the pH of the water... those ions act to reduce ph in the mash because of reactions they have with malt derived chemicals. Phytases etc .. That is precisely the point I am making. Things that don't have an effect on water pH can have an effect on Mash pH and visa versa.

So - back to keeping it simple.

Regardless of all the above - I maintain that mash pH itself is not all so very important as it is painted to be. The main thing it affects is conversion efficiency. Get your mash pH a bit mucked up and you might lose a few points of efficiency... and thats about it.
Sure -- you get it way way out of whack and it starts to do all manner of things and will make an impact in virtually every following process. But thats way _way_ out of whack, not the difference between 5.2 & 5.8

So as far as I am concerned... the appropriate advice for new brewers, including new BIAB brewers - is to ignore all the babble about pH. Pretend it doesn't matter - and you will find that it doesn't particularly. You will brew, beer will get made - and all without knowing the pH of anything, there is a fairly good chance that the beer will be just fine. If it isn't -- I bet you $20 that it had nothing to do with your mash pH. When you have your process under control, and you are making good beer and hitting your targets consistently - and you feel the need to go on a quest for improvements... then have a look at your pH.

Of course -- if you know for a fact that you live in an area with particularly hard water... then it would be a good idea to ask some local brewers for advice, or seek the advice of someone like Gryphon who knows his brewing stuff very well indeed. Apart from that - if you never ever worry about it, I bet you still manage to brew perfectly good beer.

TB


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## katzke (21/7/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I can see where both of you are coming from but I think its confusing the issue. If you dont know the pH of your brewing liquor (water ), how are you going to correct it ?



What started all this was the comment that the tap water was like pH 6 to 6.5 and they thought bringing it up to pH 7 to start would help. All of the software or manual calculations I have seen in my quest to learn about water adjustments has never said if your brewing water starts at X then do this and it will end up at Y. All the calculations have to do with brew color and what happens in the mash with the resulting mash pH after all the reactions with the grain have taken place.

Maybe we are having terminology problems.

Adjusting just the pH of the water that will be used for brewing, from the tap or tank, is bad.

Adjusting the pH of the mash is good.



Gryphon Brewing said:


> So from your original water profile you don't take into account its residual alkalinity and temporary hardness ?
> 
> If you ignore this, you are just guessing at resulting mash pH.I think this is putting out the wrong message to new brewers. I believe this is the not intention , but still its confusing. You have to start with the original water profile then adjust to gain maximum benefits in process and efficiency.It does have a large effect, to start off ignoring this I believe is the wrong approach.



Yes, exactly what I said when I typed my long explanation. A brewer needs to take into account all the chemicals as well as Hardness and Alkalinity. You can not get these numbers from the pH alone. So the pH of the water, one is going to add grain to, has little effect on the pH of the mash.



Gryphon Brewing said:


> Please keep it simple for every body.Water pH is very important and should not be made insignificant.



No it is not. If that were the case we would all brew with pH 7 distilled water. The pH of the water one is going to brew with has little effect on the pH of the mash. I think you will find that Palmer says so also. It is the reaction of all the important brewing chemicals in the water that will predict the resulting pH of the mash and not the starting pH of the water one will use to brew with. 

It is hard to keep water simple because, while not rocket science, it is not simple.


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## PistolPatch (21/7/09)

I can't believe this!

I have very little knowledge of water chemistry and yet 50% of what you guys write (not you GryphonBrewing) I know is just plain wrong or at least totally misleading.

You guys write in a style of huge authority. The posts you do, attempt to justify previous statements you have made on this forum and have no practical value apart from giving the appearance that you are very scientific and knowledgeable.

You guys even get real basics wrong, time and time again but always have a come-back. (Fixed one of those by phone to a brewer last night but it distresses me as to how many more there are out there.)

Tonight for me is the final straw. There's one of you I have even supported over and over because of the authoritative style in which you write. But I now finally know that I have been supporting someone who knows something about a lot of things but nothing substantial or useful about anything. You are the same person that doesn't even know the difference between full-volume and no-sparge brewing and, if you want to challenge me on this, go ahead as I still have your email correspondence.

Daddymen, GryphonBrewing, I'm sure would love to answer your question correctly (and is also highly technically qualified to do so). Send him a PM as he hardly bothers here anymore for reasons that should now be blatantly obvious 

My goodness!
PP


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## Thirsty Boy (21/7/09)

Perhaps (well, almost certainly) I at least am not communicating what I intend to say well - in the interest of clarity I will use someone else's words.

From How to Brew chapter 15 "Understanding mash pH"



> Water pH
> You would think that the pH of the water is important but actually it is not. It is the pH of the mash that is important, and that number is dependent on all of the ions we have been discussing. In fact, the ion concentrations are not relevant by themselves and it is not until the water is combined with a specific grain bill that the overall pH is determined, and it is that pH which affects the activity of the mash enzymes and the propensity for the extraction of astringent tannins from the grain husks.
> 
> Many brewers have made the mistake of trying to change the pH of their water with salts or acids to bring it to the mash pH range before adding the malts. You can do it that way if you have enough experience with a particular recipe to know what the mash pH will turn out to be; but it is like putting the cart before the horse. It is better to start the mash, check the pH with test paper and then make any additions you feel are necessary to bring the pH to the proper range. Most of the time adjustment won't be needed.



Thats what I meant to say..

Oh except for the bits where I said that mash pH was less of an issue than it sometimes seems it is - that bit is all me and I stick by it.

TB


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## katzke (21/7/09)

PistolPatch said:


> I can't believe this!
> 
> I have very little knowledge of water chemistry and yet 50% of what you guys write (not you GryphonBrewing) I know is just plain wrong or at least totally misleading.
> 
> ...



Sounds like before you say anything about what we say about the pH of the water one intends to brew with you need to do some learning on the subject.

Even your expert, GryphonBrewing is saying the same thing that the pH of the water you are going to brew with is not important as compared to the important brewing chemicals as well as the Hardness and the Alkalinity. 

So from your original water profile you don't take into account its residual alkalinity and temporary hardness ?

If you ignore this, you are just guessing at resulting mash pH. I think this is putting out the wrong message to new brewers. I believe this is the not intention , but still its confusing. You have to start with the original water profile then adjust to gain maximum benefits in process and efficiency. It does have a large effect, to start off ignoring this I believe is the wrong approach.

Never mentions the pH of the intended brewing water but does mention the water profile as well as other things you will never know about with just the pH of the water from the tap.

I can post links to other experts that say the same thing about the pH of the water one is going to brew with. But they will just back us up.


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## PistolPatch (22/7/09)

I was just having a re-read here and my last post was a bit out of line and a bit rude too so I'm sorry about that. Knowing me, I can't promise it won't happen again. I didn't read thoroughly enough - too busy with beer 

I have been a bit put off though recently in other threads by mountains being made out of molehills. Something very simple can very quickly turn good solid advice into a mass of minutiae, being talked down to from a height or just argument usually at cross purposes. And sometimes there is actually some incorrect advice thrown about as well though not to the extent I implied above. All pretty confusing for the reader.

I'm not very good at handling this and find it wearing. One day I might learn not to be a part of it though. A good lesson to learn for me.

This last thing here could have been avoided with simple clear advice initially i.e. add your grain first then adjust pH.

Hope poor old daddymen has an idea of what to try next.


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## katzke (22/7/09)

PistolPatch said:


> I was just having a re-read here and my last post was a bit out of line and a bit rude too so I'm sorry about that. Knowing me, I can't promise it won't happen again. I didn't read thoroughly enough - too busy with beer
> 
> Hope poor old daddymen has an idea of what to try next.



I thought that might have been part of it.

Also a confusion of words or terms. This is one of my hot buttons, when people say things using the wrong terms or miss using them.

I find sometimes when things get heated it is best to let a reply set for a while and re-read it to make sure it says what you want. I have even deleted the entire thing finding it was not worth hitting post.

Now that it seems to be done I can say the short answer was not the best on my part.


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## daddymem (22/7/09)

PistolPatch said:


> Hope poor old daddymen has an idea of what to try next.



I've gone through Palmer's stuff to find my answer. The correct answer should have been, yes, with your water report you can use the alkalinity, Ca, and Mg and his nomograph to estimate mash pH (base malt only). My water puts me in the very light SRM beers. I expected that answer, since my pH is low to start and low in minerals, I thought it would probably be low mash pH. I can now adjust using that nomograph.

After having read more, it may be the high manganese in my water that is the biggest culprit. Follow me here, looking at off flavors in milk: 

"Oxidized
Cardboardy, metallic, • Exposure to “white metal”* or rusty surfaces on milk • Use only high quality stainless steel, glass, plastic or
tallowy, puckery-mouth handling equipment. This includes copper tubing from hot rubber for all milk contact surfaces.
feel water heater, “white metal” elbows or fittings in milk lines • Water treatment/softening may be necessary.
or cleaning lines and/or rust in the wash-up sink. • Use iodophor sanitizers preferably.
• Copper, iron or *manganese* in water supply. • Protect milk from exposure to sunlight or fluorescent
• Excessive use of chlorine sanitizers. lighting, cover glass pipelines.
• Exposure of milk to sunlight or fluorescent lighting."

If you correlate milk off flavors with beer, then the above makes sense.

In my lighter flavored beers I get a faint off flavor, bandaid, metallic, cardboard, so faint all those could describe it. Most people can't taste it, but I do. It's an irritating flavor because it is there but so weak it is hard to put a finger on it. Altbier, EPA, Irish Red, have the flavor, Irish stout, dry stout, strong blonde don't. I think the stronger flavored beers cover it. Looks like aeration or filtration in greensand will remove it. We have treatment planned in the near future (once I get a job again). For now, I may give aeration a shot, an aquarium pump in a bucket of water day before brew day may do it.


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## katzke (23/7/09)

Daddymem said:


> pH would make sense. My brews at home are with my well water which has low pH for drinking water 6-6.5 from different labs. I've often wondered if I should be making an adjustment to at least bring it to normal drinking water standards. For potable water, the pH is mostly a problem for mechanicals, water heater and pipes, etc. But for beer, it has to have some effect. I find water adjustments for specific recipes, I'm more interested in should I get something to raise the starting pH for all my brews.





Daddymem said:


> I've gone through Palmer's stuff to find my answer. The correct answer should have been, yes, with your water report you can use the alkalinity, Ca, and Mg and his nomograph to estimate mash pH (base malt only). My water puts me in the very light SRM beers. I expected that answer, since my pH is low to start and low in minerals, I thought it would probably be low mash pH. I can now adjust using that nomograph.
> 
> After having read more, it may be the high manganese in my water that is the biggest culprit. Follow me here, looking at off flavors in milk:
> 
> ...



Now I am confused, we need to remember that people will not read everything on a forum.

I read your original question as should you adjust the pH of your tap water to bring it up to normal ranges for tap water before you brew. The answer is still no. If you make any adjustments to your water to influence the pH of the mash you will never know what the pH of the water is unless you test the water after making those adjustments. By using Palmers graph or spreadsheet or any of the other software or even doing the calculations by hand you will never get a resulting water pH. You will get an idea of what the pH of the mash will be after the time it takes for all the additions to react with the grain in the mash. Yes you could calculate what the pH of the treated water would be but it is not important as you are not after that at all. What you are after is what the pH of the mash will be after the grain is added and the reactions have taken place. In one of my explanations I gave the example of the pH of distilled water is 7. It has no minerals in it so the mash would be way out of range. So the pH of the water one intends to brew with is not the goal is it? The goal is what the pH of the mash will be and the only way to know that is to know what the levels of the chemicals important to brewing are in your brewing water and the desired color of the beer. And then it is a target and not an absolute number as assumptions are made about the grain. It will be close and so far I have not had to make any other adjustments.

As to trying to diagnose off flavors by comparing them to milk, beer is beer and milk is milk. Some things do cross over but I would not put much to it unless you know for sure. The flavor of DMS is one that will cross that I know of.

So if you are asking me if you should adjust the pH of you tap water then the answer is still no. IF you are asking if you should make adjustments to your water to control what happens in the mash then the answer is maybe. Look at the chemicals in your water that are important to the mash and adjust them based on the color of beer you will brew. There are a few different tools that all do the same thing. Palmers spreadsheet for excel is one of the ones I use to check my final numbers. I use Brewater to figure out what I want to add for a starting point. As to what the starting point should be there are a few different ideas. I read through Brewing Classic Styles and with some other tips I have some starting profiles I am working with. I do not have enough experience with all of them so can not say they are correct. I can say that the historical water profiles that have been published and spread around the Internet are not correct from what I have read on the subject. The common reason given for them as not correct is that the water samples were not of the actual brewing water but water outside the brewery. It has been said that some of the breweries do not use the water from the source that was tested. So one of the preferred methods of profiling water is to get the Calcium and the flavor additions correct for the color of the beer and leave the odd historical profiles alone.

This is just touching on the subject of water treatment. See why I tried to give a short answer even though it did confuse most people.

As to your Manganese level I could find no info on what off flavors you could get. The recommended levels are very low but just what that is I am not sure. Are you sure it is Manganese and not Magnesium that is in your water? If you do have high metals then you need to filter with the correct filter or dilute with distilled water and then adjust the result. Again the programs I use will help you with how much distilled water to use. The cure may be worse then the problem if you lose other trace chemicals needed for the mash or yeast. See not an easy subject to deal with is it?


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## daddymem (23/7/09)

Positive it is manganese.

I still think it can be made more difficult than it has to be. If your starting water is low pH and minerals, barring anything crazy in your mash, you will probably get a low pH mash. If you know you need a higher pH for a darker beer, you should be able to use those nomographs and predict your mash pH and predict the adjustments needed to raise the pH. Sure you can use pH strips and some calculations and dial the mash in absolutely, but this is homebrewing not commercial brewing, I'm just talking about knowing you are on one end or the other of the spectrum and you want to bring yourself closer to a target. I just want to know if you could just say, given the water profile below, "I'm brewing a dark brew, I should toss in some bicarbonate." or "I'm brewing an amber, a little bicarbonate should do." or "I'm doing a pale ale, so I am good to go as is." Maybe someday advanced pH testing, but for now, just an improvement for a hobby is where I am at.

Calcium 2.0 mg/l
Magnesium 1.1 mg/l
Bicarbonate 3.42 (calculated)
Sulfate 4.1 mg/l
Chloride 8.4 mg/l
Hardness 9.5 mg/l
pH 6
Manganese 2.56 mg/l
Alkalinity 11 mg/l
Sodium 6.5 mg/l

The warning I got was the pH was low and should be adjusted and that my Manganese was high and could cause staining and off flavors in my water at that level.


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## PistolPatch (23/7/09)

katzke: Thanks mate!

daddymen: Those mineral figures are very low. Wow! I'm just having a guess here but with those sort of off-flavours, I am wondering if your yeast is getting enough nutrient??? Also, a roll of pH paper is cheap as. Buy one, you'll love it!


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## daddymem (23/7/09)

I've got some I may try next brew. I guess what prompted all this was Palmer "However, most people don't like to trust to luck or go through the trial and error of testing the mash pH with pH paper and adding salts to get the right pH. *There is a way to estimate your mash pH before you start and this method is discussed in a section to follow*, but first, let's look at how the grain bill affects the mash pH." And I couldn't follow if the nomograph adjustment examples were the mash estimating or not.

Hrmmm, yeast nutrient probably isn't a bad idea. I'll give that a shot if this pale ale I brewed has the same funny taste.


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## katzke (23/7/09)

Daddymem said:


> Positive it is manganese.
> 
> I still think it can be made more difficult than it has to be. If your starting water is low pH and minerals, barring anything crazy in your mash, you will probably get a low pH mash. If you know you need a higher pH for a darker beer, you should be able to use those nomographs and predict your mash pH and predict the adjustments needed to raise the pH. Sure you can use pH strips and some calculations and dial the mash in absolutely, but this is homebrewing not commercial brewing, I'm just talking about knowing you are on one end or the other of the spectrum and you want to bring yourself closer to a target. I just want to know if you could just say, given the water profile below, "I'm brewing a dark brew, I should toss in some bicarbonate." or "I'm brewing an amber, a little bicarbonate should do." or "I'm doing a pale ale, so I am good to go as is." Maybe someday advanced pH testing, but for now, just an improvement for a hobby is where I am at.
> 
> ...






Daddymem said:


> I've got some I may try next brew. I guess what prompted all this was Palmer "However, most people don't like to trust to luck or go through the trial and error of testing the mash pH with pH paper and adding salts to get the right pH. *There is a way to estimate your mash pH before you start and this method is discussed in a section to follow*, but first, let's look at how the grain bill affects the mash pH." And I couldn't follow if the nomograph adjustment examples were the mash estimating or not.
> 
> Hrmmm, yeast nutrient probably isn't a bad idea. I'll give that a shot if this pale ale I brewed has the same funny taste.



Well with those numbers and if you truly think your Manganese is the problem you need to do a few things. Can not say what is best for you as shopping is different in the States.

All your numbers are low especially Magnesium. I think you have several issues going and yeast health may be one of them. I also still wonder if it is not your kettle. As I recall you are brewing in the same kettle you cook in.

I would try some adjustments that you are comfortable with and see what the mash pH is and how the batch comes out. You have not quite got the idea of how water adjustments work but I have no idea what more to say with out a long paper on brewing water. That is something I am not qualified to do, as I have not brewed all the styles yet. I can say what I am doing works for me and I just follow others sound advice as to how to do it. You can take a water profile and make adjustments to it and get the result you are after. The chart thing that Palmer has in his book works but the Excel Spreadsheet works much better and has flavor profiling in it also. I modified it to calculate for Salt additions as I use Salt to adjust the Sodium. Brewater is used because I have target profiles I want to match for flavor and it is much easier to find the additions needed. I have never found the auto function to work well for me.

Good luck with your brews.


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## daddymem (23/7/09)

Thanks.

I ferment in buckets or my better bottle. My kettle is an aluminum 15 gallon pot.


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## daddymem (23/7/09)

So is it Yeast energizer or nutrient I should get?
http://pivo.northernbrewer.com/nbstore/act...amp;x=0&y=0

It doesn't sound like nutrient has the magnesium I'm missing, but the energizer does.


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## Thirsty Boy (23/7/09)

> I still think it can be made more difficult than it has to be. If your starting water is low pH and minerals, barring anything crazy in your mash, you will probably get a low pH mash.



one of the reasons this question (the water one) often gets dragged into the details details realm. Your statement isn't true.

Low mineral water can often result in high mash pH - even very soft water can result in high mash pH. Ergo the above bickering.

The argument is moot now, you have looked at the Palmer stuff, know that your water could do with some adjustment to give you the mash pH you need; and can scoot ahead just fine. But Katzke made a point earlier on - water discussions get complex, because water chemistry and its effect in brewing is actually kind of complex.

Your water - is mostly beautiful brewing water. Actually higher in all the important brewing minerals than typical Melbourne water (where I brew) and probably very close to Pilsen water. Your main concern would be around having high enough Calcium levels. This is to do with pH in the mash and boil and also important for Yeast health. I can't see that you are significantly lacking in any other important areas - you will get sufficient trace amounts of magnesium from the malt.

Your Manganese. I think that your report's mg/L translates directly to ppm - palmer has some calculations for converting water reports, check there. But if it does translate directly into ppm then.....

Manganese (Mn2+)

At concentrations above 0.5 ppm it may inhibit the fermentation, but it
is required at lower levels (0.2 ppm ) when it acts as a co-factor to
yeast enzymes.

A touchy one ... I cant find references to it having a significant flavour or stability impact in beer, so (given that you have tossed in a little extra Calcium) unless you are noticing a problem with your fermentations... I wouldn't worry. If you do notice fermentation issues - you might have to cut your brewing water with Distilled/RO and then it will be even softer and more lacking... almost a blank canvass that you can build on from scratch.

A lot of brewers would love to have your water (brewing water is ideally at a slightly acidic or neutral pH - so no worries there) - with the minor possible glitch of the manganese.

I personally would just brew in it without a second thought - Light coloured beers should work especially well.

Thirsty


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## PistolPatch (23/7/09)

Daddy, I think katzke has given you very good advice. (I'm such a turncoat Tom )

I was thinking a bit about this today whilst working. Whilst your water profile is not normal, there are still some other things that need to be considered and should definitely discounted first.

I would hold off your plans on doing another brew until you have a plan as to what you are going to change. Brewing again without making significant changes will almost certainly give you those same annoying flavours.

Nothing pisses you off more than a flavour you can't stand but hardly anyone else can taste. (Mine came from ball-valves I used on my fermenters - took me about a year to find it as I was positive those ball-valves were clean - see below).

Why I am saying that you need a plan before you brew again is because those off-flavours are almost certainly not just due to water. Water might be a contributing factor but not the major one given the very good description of those flavours you gave us earlier.

So, here's a start to a checklist that I reckon you should fully consider before your next brew. To improve it, you probably need to give us a good description of how you currently brew. The following is a start though and making the changes below will certainly do no harm at all.

1. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise any ball-valves you are using in your brewing starting from the kettle tap on.
2. Check any hoses you use during the brewing process. Check they are food-grade and rated to above the maximum temperature they are being exposed to.
3. If you are using a counter-flow chiller or a plate chiller, you need to have a very good look at whether they are actually sterile.
4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise pH. katzke will tell you as I have no idea - my water is the opposite to yours! Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer.
5. Use yeast nutrient ten minutes before your boil ends. Use the nutrient not the energizer. Using double what they recommend probably wouldn't hurt given your profile but I should be checked on this.
6. If you are using liquid yeast, how are you using it? (We need more info here I think.)
7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one.
8. Aerate your wort vigorously.

Some of the above might seem obvious but it is easy to miss the basics and following the above to the letter has resulted in at least three brewers I know solving a very long-term problem - one of them being me...

I spent ages asking about and trying to find mine. I am very good on cleaning and sterlisation but until Doogiechap explained the dead-space of ball-valves to me and how you can never completely clean them unless you pull them apart, I never even thought of the ones I was using on my fermenters and they were so cool! I was 100% certain they were perfectly sterile. Then Doogie showed me how to pull them apart. They were bloody difficult to get apart and I'll never use them again but the smell before pulling apart was totally neutral. After pulling apart, there it was!!!

So, Daddy there is a start to a checklist that maybe others can improve or even add to.

With your annoying flavours, before yo brew again, make sure you have done or have on hand _*everything*_ you need to complete the checklist above.

Fingers crossed but I reckon following the above might even bring a smile to your face.

Good luck mate!
Pat


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## PistolPatch (23/7/09)

Took so long to write the above that I didn't see Thirsty's post. Gotta go but just had a quick glance through and saw the Pilsen comment. Daddy's water is pretty bloody close eh!


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## daddymem (23/7/09)

I'm hoping my Kolsch comes out good due to the water I have.

1. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise any ball-valves you are using in your brewing starting from the kettle tap on. *Only valve I have is in my bottle bucket and that gets sanitized soaking in my fermenter bucket overnight with Iodophor*
2. Check any hoses you use during the brewing process. Check they are food-grade and rated to above the maximum temperature they are being exposed to. *Did*
3. If you are using a counter-flow chiller or a plate chiller, you need to have a very good look at whether they are actually sterile. *I use and immersion chiller last 10 minutes it goes in the boil*
4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise pH. katzke will tell you as I have no idea - my water is the opposite to yours! Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer. *That's the part I need to figger out*
5. Use yeast nutrient ten minutes before your boil ends. Use the nutrient not the energizer. Using double what they recommend probably wouldn't hurt given your profile but I should be checked on this. *I have some for Apfelwein use, I'll give it a shot for my beer next time*
6. If you are using liquid yeast, how are you using it? (We need more info here I think.) *I've used dry yeast and liquid yeast. Most of the lighter beers use dry yeast, Nottingham I think all that taste ones were. When I do liquid, I use a starter*
7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one. *I did that with long soaks with Oxyclean followed by Iodophor soaks*
8. Aerate your wort vigorously. *I shake the crap outta my bucket fermenter*

You missed temperature. I use a water bath and ice packs if needed to keep fermentation temps down in the low 60s F.

My brew procedures (did for my pale ale which was pretty typical)
Night before I mix up 3 gallons of Iodophor sanitizer solution in my fermentation bucket. Airlock goes in.
Brew day I dump most of the Iodophor into a rubbermaid tub and bring outside, things like spoons, thermometer and hydrometer, hop bag go into the tub.
Water into the kettle, grain bag secured, all set on turkey fryer.
Thermometer in and water brought to temp
Grain emptied into kettle, stirred and temp checked and adjusted if needed.
Lid on kettle, kettle wrapped in comforter.
Temp checked after stirring around 15 mins, 30 mins, 45 mins, 60 mins, 75 mins. Actual times judged by temperature drop based on outside weather.
Grain bag up and twisted to wring out most liquid.
Grain bag put into bucket with colander upside down in it.
I grab a sample for hydrometer reading, let that cool and take the reading sometime during the boil usually.
Wort brought to boil, at hotbreak timing started, first hops in
Hop schedule followed, Irish moss in at 10, immersion chiller in at 10. I use a hop sock usually, a large paint strainer bag allowing good movement through the wort.
I use a plate or pot lid to squeeze out wort from the grains, the wort is put back into the kettle.
At flame out I turn the water on to the immersion chiller and usually am down to mid 70s in 10 minutes or so. I grab a sample for hydrometer reading.
I swish the remaining Iodophor around in the fermenter which has had a cover on it the whole time, then dump that out.
I dump the kettle into the fermenter, pitch the yeast, put the cover on and begin rocking it for aeration.
Fermenter goes into water bath with ice packs in it for fermentation in the low to mid 60s.
Most beers stay in my primary for three weeks, come up the night before bottling to sit on the counter.
I mix up a gallon of Iodophor and soak my racking hose and bottle wand in the bottling bucket with spigot attached.
I fill my dishwasher with my bottles and run it on pots and pans, heavy scrub, high water temperature with Oxyclean in it. My bottles are rinsed after opening and placed on a bottle tree so they are very clean.
I transfer the Iodophor into another bucket through the spigot to sanitize that. My racking cane and wine thief go in there too along with my capper.
I make my bottling mixture by boiling water and adding priming sugar or DME then dump that into my bottling bucket.
I take a sample with my wine thief for a hydrometer reading.
I assemple my autosiphon and run the Iodophor solution through it then use it to transfer into the bottling bucket.
Bottling bucket goes on counter over the dishwasher.
When done, I use my vinator for a couple squirts into each bottle as I put them on my tree.
My caps go into the vinator.
I take a bottle off the tree, squirt it with the vinator, hold upside down over the dishwasher lid then fill with my bottle wand.
Meanwhile my other hand has a bottle squirted and drip drying over the lid ready for filling.
When full I put the bottle on the floor and place a cap over it.
When done, I finally cap each on, place them in my cases and push them into the corner of the kitchen for 3 weeks, it is usually in the 70s and I haven't had a problem with carbonation yet.
Some beers get cellared, some get put upstairs in my bedroom and some go straight to fridge for drinking.


My big things for brewing are sanitization, healthy yeast (starters, aeration), and temperatures. I just need to refine a few more things and I think water may be one of them. If my better bottle or glass carboy isn't in use, I'll use them for fermentation. Some beers get a secondary. Some beers only get two weeks in primary. I guess it is hard to say there are hard rules as I don't have dozens of brews under my belt yet so most of these "rules" have been for a few batches. The more I think about it, the more the manganese or yeast nutrient make the most sense. A couple of the worst off flavor ones were kits (extract at that) and I hadn't noticed until after that the yeast was old. And as I said, the lighter flavored beers have the flavor. I could see a stout hiding a faint off flavor easier than sale an English Pale ale. So that would be the manganese if you make the jump that milk off flavors of manganese equate to beer. Less than optimal yeast could also fit that too, small off flavors could be masked in a fuller beer. I'll check pH next time but I am going to try some yeast nutrient. Someday, when I find employment again, we'll get a green sand filter for our water and the manganese will be gone, and some pH adjustment so we don't have our fixtures corrode on us.


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## PistolPatch (24/7/09)

Daddymen, I have run out of time tonight (huge brewing weekend this weekend) so only had a chance to scan the top bit of what you wrote. I will have a very thorough read of the remainder as soon as I get a chance.

Just on the quick scan, I'm not a fan of Nottingham and have never brewed a beer I like with it so maybe you and I have the same palate? In saying that, I have tasted a beer brewed with Nottingham that I really liked but it was late at night. The other yeast that hardly ever works for my palate is US-04. I have only tasted one beer I liked with that one and never brewed anything I liked with it. Maybe go for US-05 on your next brew?

When you have an ongoing problem like yours, your memory often plays up so consider the above seriously. i.e. Have you done a brew with a different yeast that you didn't have the problem with? Maybe, maybe not.

The valve in your bottle bucket needs to be COMPLETELY pulled apart into its individual pieces. Do this and then smell it.

This, believe it or not, could be your entire problem. If you can't pull it apart and clean it then buy a new one. If no problem, then that was your problem.

_*At least your checklist is getting narrowed down a bit. So, for now, do a recipe that requires SO-5 (US-56) and change or clean that bottling valve.*_

It is very good you have given such thorough feedback above. I'm really sorry I can't read it now but things are heading in the right direction I think.

:icon_cheers: 
Pat

P.S. Until you strip or change that bottling valve, I reckon the checklist can't progress. I also reckon your problem is going to be one of those ones where you are amazed when you find it's source. It will certainly be one we all learn from.


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## PistolPatch (24/7/09)

Daddymen, one other thing...

Your post before mine is one fine example of what you should post when you have a weird problem.

I'm really impressed and can't wait to read it slowly and thoroughly.

Top stuff!

Now go and pull that bottling valve apart


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## daddymem (24/7/09)

Thank you for your efforts, I really appreciate it. The spigot is a plastic one. I can take the gaskets and the nut off it and that is it. I'll look for a replacement. I've used S-05 and like it, but it is on strong beers that I don't get the taste from. But it just could be the Notty. Makes sense, not everyone likes cranberries for example so I could see not liking a taste of certain yeasts.


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## katzke (24/7/09)

Daddymem said:


> 4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise pH. katzke will tell you as I have no idea - my water is the opposite to yours! Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer. *That's the part I need to figger out*
> 
> Most beers stay in my primary for three weeks, come up the night before bottling to sit on the counter.


First I am sure you do but do you cover your fermentor? If not it could be light that is part of your problem.

I suggest you look in your library and see what brewing books they have. I am sure it was Brewing Classic Styles that has some of the water profile info I am using. It is not complete and I found it in the back with the recipes but you need to pull it out. This is my starting point. I do some things others may not do but I had one real bad brew and one stuck ferment. After playing with my water my brews have been better so I will not go back.

So what I do is basically raise my Magnesium to the range of 15ppm. Raise the calcium to my target. Then play with the Sulfate/Chloride ratio for the flavor balance I am after. I will raise the Sodium based on the profile I got out of the book. I play with all of this till it is close and the Carbonate or Hardness is in the range I need for the beer. All of this I do in Brewater. I then enter the result into Palmers Excel spreadsheet I modified to allow Canning Salt as an addition. I may need to play with the numbers a bit to match my recipe color. I take the final numbers and convert them to grains as I have a reloading scale I use to weigh out the additions. My mash pH has been right on every time. I even had to add acid to my last brew just as predicted.

One thing I did was to enter your water profile into Palmers spreadsheet and it has a bit of an error in my mind. It says that your profile is on the Malty side. I do not think you have enough Chloride to make much difference based on what I have read but Pilsner water is low in numbers and the profile I have is even balanced at 1 to 1.

Here are some links, in no particular order that may help everyone learn more about water. http://hbd.org/brewery/library/wchmprimer.html 

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...tanding_Mash_pH 

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:gJKrD...lient=firefox-a 

http://netbeer.org/content/view/13/42/lang,en/

http://www.geocities.com/pensansbrewery/pr...es_premash.html

http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/200...t-has-made.html

http://www.antiochsudsuckers.com/tom/brewingwater.htm

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/.../www/water.html

If you read all these you will know as much as I do about water for brewing. As you read you may find some do not exactly agree but that is part of the fun of discerning information.

Here is the link to Brewater and more water info. http://home.roadrunner.com/~brewbeer/ You can get Palmers Spreadsheet from the online book.


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## daddymem (24/7/09)

Thanks.

The buckets are light proof. My better bottle or glass carboy wear an apron while on the counter and aren't in direct sunlight anyways. Cellar storage and bedroom storage are also away from windows and don't get light.

I forgot to mention above that I usually brew one clear glass bottle and put that on a shelf in the kitchen. I can see the progress of the beer that way. That is the one I usually chill and drink first to try.

As I go through my beers made since October 08 (not in order of brew):

AHS Bavarian Hefeweizen extract, White Labs WLP300-Nothing wrong here
AHS Gold Seal Dry Stout extract with alcohol boost pack, Windsor Ale Dry yeast-fruity-temperatures were too high fermenting
AHS Gold Seal Holday Ale extract with alcohol boost pack, Nottingham Ale-fruity-temperatures were too high fermenting
AHS Gold Seal American Pale Ale extract with alcohol boost pack, Nottingham Ale-sour, fruity, total mess-too high fermenting, infection assumed
Brewer's Best German Altbier extract, Nottingham-cardboardy
English Pale Ale, Brewer's Best extract, Nottingham-funny bandaidy, cardboardy
Red Ale, Brewer's Best extract, added 1 oz Hallertauer dry hopped, Nottingham-funny bandaidy, cardboardy
Group brew DIPA, extract, S-05, dry hopped cascade and centennial-Incredible beer! Not enough made! Needed to settle out more or use gelatin, lots of bottle sediment.
Blonde Ale, recipe, BIAB, Nottingham-Nothing wrong except not enough made!
Scarborough Faire Ale, recipe, extract, Nottingham-Sage needs to drop back a lot more to be drinkable, aging now
AHS Dunkelweisen, BIAB, Wyeast 3068-Scarborough Faire leached into bucket, can taste faint sage flavor, aging in hopes of losing sage flavor
Big Brew Day SS Minnow Mild Brown, recipe, BIAB, London Ale Liquid Yeast-Used friends city water, has a chlorophenoly flavor
Apfelwein, no boil, Montrachet dry yeast and yeast energizer-great stuff! Not enough made!
Cranberry hard cider, no boil, Nottingham-Tart, aging now.
Brewmaster's Warehouse Kolsch, BIAB, liquid Kolsch yeast-carbonating now
Brewmaster's Warehouse Haus Pale Ale, BIAB, Nottingham-second week in fermenter now
Graff, recipe, DME with specialty grains, Nottingham or S05, I forgot-Great stuff! Not enough made!


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## daddymem (24/7/09)

Above should say I BOTTLE one clear bottle.


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## daddymem (27/7/09)

What about this stuff?
http://morebeer.com/view_product/19873


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## daddymem (29/7/09)

My BIAB Kolsch is outstanding! Maybe my water profile is good for that style of beer (similar to pilsner?) and not so good for the ones that taste a bit off.


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## Thirsty Boy (30/7/09)

Try brewing a helles - similar to a kolsch in a lot of ways. Then try a pilsner. All three very pale beers, but one of them hoppy. If all of them work - then you know you are good for pale beers, with or without hops. Then try the same on darker beers, something malty like an irish red or a scottish 70 ale, but very few hops, then do one with hops...

See where it is that the flavour you dont like comes back -- or, it might have had nothing to do with the water in the first place. Might have been malt or yeast or many things.

Like I said - your brewing water would make many a brewer salivate with envy.

TB


Oh btw - I like the 5.2 ... completely takes the pH issue out of the equation. Put in the 5.2 and never think about it again. I havfe a tub and use it when I remember to (most of the time)


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## daddymem (30/7/09)

Given the pales tasting good so far (Kolsch, Blonde) and the darker low hops having an off flavor (Irish Red, Altbier, Dry Stout), we may be on to something here. If so, that is fine by me. I can build the water a bit for darker low hop beers. I hope to someday do a doppelbock in the Ayinger style, that's why I want to get this down. My beers are fine but I want to be able to brew special beers and nail them.


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## mini 1l (7/8/09)

Another Yankee from Massachusetts trying BIAB for the first time........

I'v been lurking around AussieHomeBrewer's forum for a couple of months researching BIAB. I compiled pages and pages of notes on various aspects/concerns/techniques and finally pulled the trigger this past Sunday. I used BIAB to brew an APA and managed to pull an 80% efficiency into the fermentor. My LHBS totally laughed at me when I told him about BIAB and my plans. Time will tell, but the wort look awesome going into the fermentor. 

Anyway, thanks to AussieHomeBrew and those who believe in BIAB.


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## katzke (7/8/09)

mini 1l said:


> Another Yankee from Massachusetts trying BIAB for the first time........
> 
> I'v been lurking around AussieHomeBrewer's forum for a couple of months researching BIAB. I compiled pages and pages of notes on various aspects/concerns/techniques and finally pulled the trigger this past Sunday. I used BIAB to brew an APA and managed to pull an 80% efficiency into the fermentor. My LHBS totally laughed at me when I told him about BIAB and my plans. Time will tell, but the wort look awesome going into the fermentor.
> 
> Anyway, thanks to AussieHomeBrew and those who believe in BIAB.



That is a common response from brewers and store owners. BIAB goes against everything they believe they know about brewing. I wanted to brew at our last club group brew but was not able to. It was fun watching the experts panic every time they had a hiccup with the brew they we working on. I just said I dont have that problem with my system. As it turned out the last group brew was lightly attended so it was not much of a lost opportunity. What I need to do is have everything ready as well as some beer and brew on Teach a Friend to Brew Day in November. I could really blow them away and have a no-chill beer kegged and brew a no-chill BIAB beer just to tweak them the most. It would have many advantages as I adjust my brewing water and the brew is in a different town. Bring my water in a cube and take home wort in the same cube. After the club loosing a glass carboy on the way to the last brew they may be interested in no-chill.

Back to your point. It takes a free spirit to BIAB in the USA.


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## Thirsty Boy (8/8/09)

mini 1l said:


> Another Yankee from Massachusetts trying BIAB for the first time........
> 
> I'v been lurking around AussieHomeBrewer's forum for a couple of months researching BIAB. I compiled pages and pages of notes on various aspects/concerns/techniques and finally pulled the trigger this past Sunday. I used BIAB to brew an APA and managed to pull an 80% efficiency into the fermentor. My LHBS totally laughed at me when I told him about BIAB and my plans. Time will tell, but the wort look awesome going into the fermentor.
> 
> Anyway, thanks to AussieHomeBrew and those who believe in BIAB.



Top work Mini,

take your LHBS owner a bottle of that beer when its done and good ... and see if he laughs then.

Of course -- if its crappy, say nothing and hide till you brew a good one 

Nah - any lingering doubts about the ability of BIAB to make top class beer, are fast receding into the sunset. You can make award winning beer with your bag, and don't you let anyone tell you different.

Welcome to the club ... we need a name really.

Saggy Baggers??

Perhaps we could be the first international brewclub?

PP for president ..... then we stage a Coup de Grce later on when we discover that he is really a crazed despot bent on ruling for life ...  -- ah what the hell. I'd still vote for him.


TB


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## daddymem (29/8/09)

Haus Pale Ale tastes awesome...weird thing though. No off flavors....until you burp. Then a slight hint of chlorophenols. I think that is the best descriptor. I tasted some friend's beer that uses city water for top off and I get the chlorophenol taste in droves. So how am I getting it in my beer is the question. No chlorine in our water. Oxyclean for the bottles only. Iodophor at 1 teaspoon per 1-1/2 gallons of water. Only thing left would be infection? Or...can bleach leach into plastic buckets? If so, how to get rid of it? I'm unemployed right now so tossing out my buckets and getting new isn't a great option right now.


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## daddymem (15/10/09)

Ok...why not push the envelope?

Our homebrew club is planning to do a partigyle. We figured, why not melt our different techniques at the same time? Instead of a pair of beers, we thought we could do two big beers and combine second runnings into a third big beer. There is the partigyle part.

The technique part is to use my BIAB and my buddy's batch sparge in a cooler method. Sound fun yet? Figuring out the batch sparge doesn't seem to be too hard, there are a few posts out there about partigyle so I think we can figure it out. The questions arise in the BIAB.

Would you mash, yank the bag out, squeeze a little and determine the OG in the kettle, squeeze more until you hit your target then dunk sparge and squeeze out in the second kettle for second runnings? Use something like this to determine your initial grains?: http://www.astrocaver.com/java/Parti-Gyle.html 

Our idea is:
a batch sparge Quad: http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator...0&item=8510 
a BIAB Tripel: http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator...2&item=8511
Second runnings from both into a Dubbel: http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator...1&item=8512

Of course all recipes need to be adjusted up in grains to provide our second runnings OG, but we haven't nailed down the exacts yet, this is a work in progress. Any suggestions?


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## daddymem (19/10/09)

No BIAB partigyle experience out there?


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## RdeVjun (19/10/09)

Daddymem said:


> No BIAB partigyle experience out there?


Damn, was going to do one as a trial yesterday but got lazy! I did a BIAB batch of my house ale and the efficiency was a bit lower than normal so I seriously thought about a partigyle, but the questions about process and quantities threw me, and seeing as I was still a bit dusty it was beyond my mental capacity at the time. But alas, now I'm just pressed for time (off to work :angry: ) but will revisit it with my next batch.
:beerbang:


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## katzke (19/10/09)

Daddymem said:


> No BIAB partigyle experience out there?



Guess Not.

My first impression when I looked at your post a few days ago was you are off on your efficiency on a big beer. Do some research and I think you will find mashes in the 1.1 gravity range are down in the 60s and not 75%.

One other problem you may have is mash tuns usually have dead space with some high gravity wort left behind. That helps add sugar to the second runnings. Plus when collecting the first runnings the brewer usually stops when they collect all the wort they need for the big beer. So there is wort left in the grain with more sugar in it.

With BIAB you collect all the wort but what is left in the grain. All the sugar that is left behind is what is left in the wet grain as we have no leftover wort in a tun to deal with. I have never heard of a dunk sparger testing the sparge water to see what the gravity is from rinsing the grain out. There is some but I doubt it is close to what is left in a mash tun from the leftovers of a high gravity mash destined for a second brew.

Only one way to find out. Brew it.


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## Bribie G (19/10/09)

I think that parti-gyle is very uncommon in Australia, but with BIAB it would be a great way of producing a half batch of a very big beer of the Theakston Old Peculier style and a half batch of a mild out of the spargings. I may give it a try, my LHBS has some very interesting small fermenters which look like they hold 10 litres but are a 'cut down' version of the HDPE 'barrel' fermenters we nearly always use here. 

I have read about Parti-Gyle in old Victorian era books. Just to refresh me, I take it the first brew was made from the first runnings. Then fresh liquor was put in. Did they then do an immediate sparge for the second runnings or did they mash on a bit longer before sparging? 
As I BIAB in an electric urn I'm wondering what I would do with the first runnings while I'm mashing the second lot, as I don't have a separate boiler.


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## Bongchitis (19/10/09)

I like the idea of a partigyle and as I am just starting biab, I have been looking around a little for some info. Clean Brewer here did a Barley Wine and then made a ~1025 OG Partigyle from the second runnings if I remember correctly. Brewing a Barleywine is the title and was posted in the AG section a couple of months back. I have to go find it myself now.

Good luck and please post your results.

Bong


Edit: Sorry, originally thought it was a BIAB brew so less helpfull than I thought but does have some pics etc of the partigyle vs BW. An interesting read and I'm sure you can work something out via BIAB judging by your previous posts.


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## Thirsty Boy (19/10/09)

Parti gyle will work with BIAB no problems - How strong your first runnings are compared to your second runnings, simply depends on the L:G ratio you initially use. Stock BIAB of course, puts all the water in at once and therefore first runnings are = to last runnings... the less strike water you use and the more sparge water you use, the closer you will get to it being exactly the same as a traditional parti-gyle brew.

It actually doesn't matter all that much - just work out your total volume of water required for the _whole 2 brews_ and use half for the first runnings and half for the second (assuming you want equal volumes - if not, just go proportional) - then _after_ you have mashed and sparged, equal out the volumes (you will have more in the second runnings due to no absorption by the grain), then take a sample of the gravities and just blend them till each one has the gravity you want. Take 2 x 1 litre jugs, dip a jug full out of each pot and pour it into the other... strong pot gets weaker.. weak pot gets stronger. Till you get what you want. This is what the part-gyle brewers of old were doing. With a little tweaking and thinking, you can get each batch to the ratio of total volume you want and also the proportion of the total gravity you want - all with a little jug work.

You can add a little DME or sugar to either to raise the total gravity, you can add water to either to lower the total gravity, you can steep some coloured malt in either so that one doesn't even need to have the same malt properties as the other.

BIAB can do pretty much anything that batch sparging can do - and partigyle is just batch sparging after all. Its all just a matter of whether you have the extra gear needed and can be bothered with the mucking about. I have tried... and I cant think of any of the method variations in brewing, that cant be tweaked for BIAB. Decoction... done it. Sour mash... done it. Cereal Mash... done it. Partigyle.... done it. Re-iterated mashing... done it (you could tweak this for partigyle really well and get super high gravity) - still trying to work out a beer I couldn't make, or a method I couldn't adapt, and do a BIAB brew.

TB


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## daddymem (20/10/09)

Thanks guys. We're working this out still. I need input from my sparger on his works. But my thoughts are if we get 7.5 gallons (pre boil) for the primary beer and 3.5 gallons (pre boil) for the secondary beer from each batch and combine the 3.5 gallon portions for the 7 gallon third beer, we will be asking less of each mash tun than a typical partigyle (1/2 the additional sugars required). If our third beer doesn't turn out to be a Dubbel, that's fine, a saison, or belgian pale will work too. I've adjusted the batches using this spreadsheet I've created: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0An...tuS1E&hl=en 20 plus pounds of grains for the BIAB (tripel). Good thing there are three of us.

Our target recipes haven't been finalized yet, this spreadsheet should help me do that. The 60% efficiency for big beers is a sparge number? What about BIAB, do the efficiencies fall with increasing OG?

What you said Thirsty makes sense and fits what I was envisioning. Shoot for 7.5 gallons pre boil for the first BIAB with a small/medium squeeze. Teabag dunk and big squeeze the second pot shooting for 3.5 gallons. Thanks for what to do next, that was the part I was trying to work out. Can I use quarts instead? 

I was reading about the remashing method and thought that might be a good idea to try for the sparger, but again, I have no experience beyond watching him do it a couple times.


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## daddymem (20/10/09)

Thanks Katzke. The recipe has been adjusted some since the first post. I'll shoot for 75% and the high end of the style spectrum and check out where 60% could get us and see if that is an acceptable level, or adjust the efficiency down. I think we are pretty loose on our targets, the main thing would be a quad, a tripel, and a dubbel/saison/belgian pale. We appear to be on the lower end for the sugar additions so we could bump those up a bit in the fermenter if need be. We're taking this as a challenge to do something we haven't done before and to blend some of our techniques. I'm a BIABer, one guy is a sparger, and the other is an extract with steeping grains guy. All three beers will get a little bit of each technique to some extent. Fun!


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## katzke (20/10/09)

Daddymem said:


> 20 plus pounds of grains for the BIAB (tripel). Good thing there are three of us.



I hope you do not think it will be too heavy? I would have to look for the exact figure but I have done 12 or 14 pounds and had no trouble pulling and draining the bag by myself. With a hook or pole you will have no trouble. By the way I am a fat old man way out of shape and not a buff construction worked or weight lifter.


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## daddymem (20/10/09)

I was a little tongue in cheek there. I've done 13# batches on my own, no hook or anything. It's one of the reasons why BIAB can't work!


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## daddymem (31/10/09)

Well, we've got our plans about 90% together. Here are the calculations and recipe formulations if anyone is interested:
http://tinyurl.com/yz9zxyl

The Tripel plan: http://tinyurl.com/ylnv3c9
Tripel recipe: http://tinyurl.com/yl35dn2
Tripel adjusted grain bill: http://tinyurl.com/yhfrygn

The Quad plan: http://tinyurl.com/yzm5flz
Quad recipe: http://tinyurl.com/yzj9l9n
Quad adjusted grain bill: http://tinyurl.com/yl6gh25

Dubbel recipe: http://tinyurl.com/yzumac7

Yeasts and hops are the remaining items to determine as well as availability of our ingredients.


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## daddymem (9/11/09)

Daddymem said:


> Well, we've got our plans about 90% together. Here are the calculations and recipe formulations if anyone is interested:
> http://tinyurl.com/yz9zxyl
> 
> The Tripel plan: http://tinyurl.com/ylnv3c9
> ...



Too bad this didn't work.
http://armpithomestead.blogspot.com/2009/11/partigyle.html
:icon_chickcheers:


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## daddymem (10/11/09)

We got two more beers from the partigyle mash using a sourmash technique! 5 beers, two days, two mash tuns.

http://armpithomestead.blogspot.com/2009/1...s-are-nice.html


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## Thirsty Boy (10/11/09)

well done on that effort. I'm impressed.

I honestly thought you were being a bit ambitious and that you would struggle producing three "strong" beers. I knew BIAB partigyle would work, but thought a more traditional - Big Beer, Normal Beer, Small Beer - sequence would be the best you could manage. Glad I wasn't right!

And extra sourmash beers on top huh?

Hope they all turn out great. Top work.

Thirsty


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## Wevesign73 (16/11/09)

Im glad you made it Tell some people about the site.


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## daddymem (17/11/09)

Here is a write up of the recipe formulation:

https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXC2Z23g...3d2M5&hl=en


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## daddymem (4/12/09)

Ok, so the bonus beer from our partigyle is lacking a bit. Here is the data:

OG:1.031
FG:1.006
3.3% ABV
67% att

Taste: extremely weak, very thin, got the sour in it, very tasty but small.

Process: (This was after the spent grains from our partigyle sat for 24 hours in a cooler with 1.5 gallons of 160F water added.)

5 gallons of water heated to 170F
Lifted grain bag out of cooler and put in pot. Poured the wort on top of that.
Dumped the 5 gallons of 170F water over the top of the grains.
Let that sit for 15 minutes.
Pulled out the bag and squeezed as hard as I could.
Brought to a boil and added the following:

* .5 oz East Kent Goldings hops for 60 minutes
* 1 bottle Working Man's Pale Ale funked beer for 45 minutes
* Immersion chiller and Irish Moss for 15 minutes
* .5 oz crushed coriander for 10 minutes
* 3 oz orange marmalade for 10 minutes
* .5 oz crushed grains of paradise for 10 minute
* US-05 rehydrated when wort reached 70F

I ended up with an OG of 1.031 (very sweet and spicy).

Suggestions
As noted, this is very sweet with a nice sour to it but extremely thin and weak. It almost like a soda. Any ideas what I could do to add body to this and add some ABV? It has been in the primary since November 9. Or do I just bottle it and make it a session sour beer? Call it "Sour reSession"

TIA


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## Thirsty Boy (4/12/09)

ask your local homebrew shop if they have a relatively "unfermentable" extract - add that. It will give you some body and the bit that does ferment will give you abv.

Or do a little stovetop brew to do the same - mash in at 70-73 and get a few litres of dextrinous wort to blend in

But I would be inclined to leave it be... it was a gift from teh brewing gods anyway, take it for what it is. Besides, once the sour kicks in a bit more, that will give it a perception of substance. Or you could add a shot of syrup to the glass like a berlinerweiss.


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## daddymem (4/12/09)

I just finished the refrigerated sample. Yeah, it needs something. It's like drinking water with a little lemon in it. I like the mini brew idea. I have some crystal, I could shoot high on temperature and a small volume. Add some sugar or the homemade candy syrup in as well. Shoot for 10-15 gravity points on the sugar and say 1/2# crystal 60L in 1/2 gallon of water, maybe an ounce of torrified wheat for a nice head. I could also get some more IBUs in there with 1/2 ounce of hops or so. Sound good?


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## daddymem (17/12/09)

Made it onto Basic Brewing Radio with this brew day. It is the "Partigyles Gone Wild" podcast.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio


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## daddymem (30/12/09)

Ok, so I have a number of BIAB beers under my belt and I am ready to complicate things a bit more. I know, can't be much more complicated than our "collaborative mashing" group brew ("Partigyles gone wild"). But I'd like to do a Doppelbock. Preferably an Ayinger Celebrator clone if anyone has a good recipe of that. It seems that most suggest decoction or step mashing. I am thinking about trying a step mash using BIAB. In order to make my example/question easier, I am going to refer to "The Complete Joy of Homebrewing," 3rd Edition by Charlie Papazian, pages 234-236, "Limnian Wheat Doppelbock" (8-10% ABV). I won't put up the recipe, just the mashing instructions and some key information.

There are 5.5 pounds of grains for the mash (36% wheat, 36% 2-row, remainder specialty malts), and 10 pounds of dried extract for the boil.

The grains and 5-1/2 quarts (gallons running tally=1.375) of 150F (65C) water for a target temperature of 133F(56C) for 30 minutes.
Add 2-1/2 quarts (gallons running tally=2) of boiling water for a target of 155F (68C) for 45 minutes.
Raise temperature to 158F (70C) and hold for 10-20 minutes.
Raise temperature to 167F (75C).
Pour mash into lautertun and sparge with 2-1/2 gallons of 170F (76C) water.
Bring wort to a boil..etc.
"Because of all the malt ingredients in this recipe, you will have about 4 gallons of hot wort."

*I see 2 gallons then 2.5 gallons then a 60 minute boil to get 4 gallons?* :huh: :huh: 

So....how do you go about converting this all to BIAB? I have two kettles so I could do heated water additions, but would I go for 1.375 gallons 133F, then 5.125 gallons at a temperature to be determined, to reach 155F, then continue on? In other words, a small volume for the protein rest, then the remainder of your full boil volume for the saccharification stage? Or follow their schedule and add 4.5 gallons of 170F for a mash out? Or just use full volume of water from the beginning and use the burner under the kettle to reach my step temperatures?

If this has been asked and answered before, a kind kick towards the topic link would be appreciated.
TIA


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## daddymem (30/12/09)

And I guess the other question is...."is this necessary, can a single infusion get the desired results too?"


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## Thirsty Boy (30/12/09)

You only get 4 gallons from papazians recipe because it is a minimash - you add extract (which also gives volume) and top up to pre-boil as required.

How do you step mash with BIAB.... you BIAB as normal and heat it up between steps by turning on your burner and stirring...

Presto, step mash

You will probably take about 1-2mins per degree centigrade to make your step change, just take those minutes off the rest times, half off the "coming from" rest, half off the "going to" rest.

So your mash would be something like

mash in to a temp of 56C - rest 15mins
raise temp over 20 minutes to 68C - rest for 35mins
Raise temp to 70C over 5 mins, rest for 10-15mins
Raise temp to 75 over 10 mins, rest for 10 mins and pull bag

If you want to throw a decoction in there somewhere, its easy as with BIAB. You just pull up on one edge of your bag till the grain bed comes to the surface, scoop out a decent portion (1/3rd to 1/2) of the thick/solid material - bring it to the boil in a separate pot (stirring like crazy or it will scorch) ... boil it for 15-20 mins or so and return it to the main pot just before you raise to your next rest. I would probably do it while your main mash is resting at 70C - pull the decoction, boil it while the mash is resting (dont worry if it rests at 70 for longer than the 10-15 mins) and drop the boiling hot decoction back in once its done to help you on your way (or maybe get you all the way) to 75-78

A decoction will add flavour to your brew... step mashing by itself wont.


You have a direct heated mash tun -- infusion steps are for other people, you don't need to do it.

TB


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## daddymem (31/12/09)

Thanks Thirsty Boy!

Your step-decoction doesn't sound hard at all, I think I'll try that once I figure out a recipe.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (31/12/09)

It's not hard at all.

Although over two years old, the proof is in the Pictures, apparently.

That's TB and me (behind the camera) decocting a double-batch of German-style wheat beer. Not our bestest beer ever, but an interesting exercise nonetheless.

I've since decided that life is too short for decoctions. And German-style wheat beer. And exercise.


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## daddymem (31/12/09)

Thanks for the pictures. Other suggestions on getting the flavor you get from decoction? I've gotta say, I am only going on the word of others, no idea what the decoction flavor is, but it seems to come up a lot as a needed thing for some of the wheat beers. 

We're starting to plan for our next collaborative mash and the theme is wheat this time. I'm trying to come up with the first beer and I'd like a big wheat. I'm thinking a weizenbock or a doppelbock. I haven't lagered yet and with the potential of 2-3 beers from this brewday, not sure I want to tackle that just yet. I've done a hefe, and a dunkel and liked both, but a bit bigger is the idea. Any suggestions appreciated.


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## RdeVjun (31/12/09)

Firstly, I'll second the motion 'its not hard to do a decoction', as Thirsty, Spills et al relate it is fairly simple to do.


Daddymem said:


> Other suggestions on getting the flavor you get from decoction? I've gotta say, I am only going on the word of others, no idea what the decoction flavor is, but it seems to come up a lot as a needed thing for some of the wheat beers.


I probably haven't exhausted all the possibilities, not by a long shot, but I have yet to find a specialty/ base combination which replicates the flavours a decoction provides. FWIW, I've been farting around with a single decoction in my Landlord-esque ESBs, now I know that'll sound weird and it is probably not a common practice for English Pales, but decoction does something almost indescribable to a 100% base malt mash. Sort of like an aromatic/ Munich/ crystal malt boost but much cleaner, discrete and refined IMO.
I start by mashing in to a protein rest, I know it isn't needed with malts like GP, MO and Bairds Perle/Pale, but by starting there when the decoction is returned to the mash it is usually pretty close to saccharification rest temperature which is very convenient. I'll pull about 3L for the decoction, boiling it only takes 20 minutes to half an hour extra, the constant stirring can be tedious but is necessary I'm afraid.
If you want to give single decoction a whirl and like me you would normally have your mashing vessel completely full, I'd suggest mashing in with a bit less water, just in case you need to adjust mash temperature with hot/ cold additions, otherwise make sure you've got the scope to add some heat- it may not come in at quite the right temperature first time.

Just digressing slightly off topic to the Landlord-esque ESBs for a moment, caramelising a few litres of wort makes up a proportion of the desired flavour profile and both processes (decoction and caramelising) use the same pot- I use a 12L stockpot for them while BIABing in just a 19L stockpot. Then using Dr S' hops schedule with increased late hops, ferment with 1469 et voila! A Landlord- style with 100% base malt! The reason I've been doing this is that I've not been completely satisfied with the specialty malt versions, although the 3% Caraaroma one is quite good in its own right. Both decoction and caramelised wort add other dimensions to 100% base malt- I've been quite pleased with the results and I think it is worth the extra effort and while 100% base malt mashes may not be everyone's cup of tea, they give me a certain satisfaction in achieving the style I'm targeting while also exploring a single malt's capabilities.

My 2c... :icon_cheers:


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## SpillsMostOfIt (31/12/09)

Daddymem said:


> ...
> 
> Other suggestions on getting the flavor you get from decoction?
> 
> ...



(Weyermann) Melanoidin Malt? I recall (probably incorrectly) that a well-known American home brewer uses it instead of decocting... Happy to be corrected.


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## RdeVjun (31/12/09)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> (Weyermann) Melanoidin Malt? I recall (probably incorrectly) that a well-known American home brewer uses it instead of decocting... Happy to be corrected.


Yes, sorry, you're probably quite right Spills- Melanoidin (Weyermann) is worth a whirl as a decoction substitute, as is Aromatic (Dingeman). I've used both and they're fairly close as an approximation, I just felt that a few sections of the flavour profile needed filling and that couldn't be achieved by simply increasing the rate (which was like a cloying crystal overdose). Melanoidin is very powerful stuff, 150g per 23L batch was plenty for me while Aromatic less so, although I've seen it suggested that it can be used up to 100%, but I'd need convincing before I tried it myself.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (31/12/09)

I'm *cough* 'revising' some code for controlling my new kegerator right now and enjoying a beer with 1.56% Melanoidin, 3.13% JW Dark Crystal and 4.38% JW Light Crystal (Cara), plus Bairds pale choc and Powells Munich in it. Not cloying at all!

Admittedly, it's an IPA, so my comment serves no porpoise whatsoever except to highlight that I am drinking a beer at 16:15 on a Thursday...


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## daddymem (31/12/09)

Thanks guys, things to consider. I'll look up "Dr S' hops schedule" to see what that is all about.


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## daddymem (31/12/09)

Hrm no luck. Dr. S is short for?
Oh hey, ya'll are just about into next year...sigh we'll be a year apart soon.


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## daddymem (1/1/10)

Happy New Year mates!


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## daddymem (1/1/10)

Got him.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...&recipe=680

So are you saying you do a decoction and carmelize on DrSmurto's ESB? I've been looking for a really good ESB, heard to find surprisingly.


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## daddymem (1/1/10)

Is decoction/carmalizing a substitute for using a body grain in a recipe? I am looking at an Aventinus clone that uses 1.63 lbs. CaraMunich 40, would I omit that and up the base malts with equivalent ppg?


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## RdeVjun (1/1/10)

Daddymem said:


> So are you saying you do a decoction and carmelize on DrSmurto's ESB? I've been looking for a really good ESB, heard to find surprisingly.


Well no, now I just use his recipe's hops layout, that's the recipe I started with though. I'm getting a beer in the style of the recipe with just the base malt (Fawcett's GP), so decoction and caramelising has largely replaced everything else. I won't say completely replaced because it is actually different to the recipe and just happens to suit my tastes.

BTW, Dr S mentioned recently that he now prefers a 3% Caraaroma + MO recipe instead with more of the late hops (Styrian Goldings to 2g/L). I had come to much the same conclusion myself, quite independently I might add, while I nearly fell off my chair when he mentioned it. :blink: 


Daddymem said:


> Is decoction/carmalizing a substitute for using a body grain in a recipe? I am looking at an Aventinus clone that uses 1.63 lbs. CaraMunich 40, would I omit that and up the base malts with equivalent ppg?


I'm not familiar with the Aventinus stable at all so it is hard to say but there may be characteristics in them which neither of those processes provide. About all I can suggest is to try two batches, one by the standard recipe, one just decocted base malt. I'd guess the caramelised wort wouldn't be needed, that's something peculiar to the Landlord (and a few other ESBs), but by all means try it for a different twist.
To answer your questions though, in my case I've been able to substitute spec malts in a recipe with these two processes to my own satisfaction, I can't say that it would work across the board, particularly considering the range of spec malts we have at our disposal. The results are different and I just think of them as additional techniques to manipulate the flavour profile, with or without spec malts. And yes, just omit the Caramunich and up the base malt quantity proportionally if you do try it.
Other factors such as mash temperature can have some profound effects too, I'm tending toward lower temps ATM as TTL is a fairly dry beer and that's also what I prefer, but you could also mash higher for increased body as well.

Good luck and happy new year!


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## daddymem (30/6/10)

Anyone offer insight into tips for coming up with a recipe for a beer that will be aged a minimum of 5 years?


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## Thirsty Boy (30/6/10)

Strong - medium to dark in colour - much much higher in bitterness than you would otherwise use, basically it should be almost undrinkable when you bottle it.

A barleywine, Old ale, Strong Stout, Belgian strong Dark etc etc


Other things would do too, but they are my suggestions


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## daddymem (1/7/10)

The "DO" List so far:
Oxygenated caps
Wax the caps
Use CO2 to purge vessels and lines to minimize oxygenation issues
Skip aroma hops
Higher IBU<--------------------------------------------------------------------Does Hop IBU mellow with time or is it flavor that mellows?
Cool aging in my cellar
Cold crash before bottling
12-14% ABV
Sugar additions to reach ABV
10-12% roasted malt
Pitch onto a lighter ale yeast cake or huge starter

I'm leaning RIS, maybe even chocolate or espresso.


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## Thirsty Boy (1/7/10)

IBUs decrease with time which is why old beer often seems to get "sweeter" - the balance shifts towards sweetness as the bitterness drops away.

"Cold Crash before bottling" - as a matter of fact I would fine the beer, cold crash it and give it an extended period of cold conditioning, then add back a very small amount of fresh yeast at bottling. Your strong beer will carbonate better with fresh yeast anyway - and you want the minimum possible level of yeast in the bottle to minimise autolysis flavours.

Actually - I would filter, force carb and CP fill.... but that's just me.


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## SpillsMostOfIt (1/7/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> IBUs decrease with time which is why old beer often seems to get "sweeter" - the balance shifts towards sweetness as the bitterness drops away.
> 
> "Cold Crash before bottling" - as a matter of fact I would fine the beer, cold crash it and give it an extended period of cold conditioning, then add back a very small amount of fresh yeast at bottling. Your strong beer will carbonate better with fresh yeast anyway - and you want the minimum possible level of yeast in the bottle to minimise autolysis flavours.
> 
> Actually - I would filter, force carb and CP fill.... but that's just me.



I'm bottling a cider today that has had this treatment (not the CP nonsense - cold/filter/re-yeast/bottle). Apart from all the hidden difficulties and unforeseen failures, I think it a surprisingly easy and effective method.


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## daddymem (16/7/10)

A step closer, here's my current draft recipe (hope you can forgive the units):

Style: Russian Imperial Stout
TYPE: All Grain-BIAB

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal 
Boil Size: 6.02 gal
Estimated OG: 1.144 SG
Estimated Color: 50.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 129.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Bitterness Ratio: 0.901
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
20.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 80.81 % 
1.00 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 4.04 % 
1.00 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 4.04 % 
0.75 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 3.03 % 
5.00 oz Magnum [14.00 %] (60 min) Hops 129.3 IBU 
2.00 lb Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 8.08 % 

S-05 Yeast cake 

90 Minute mash full boil volume @ 154F
Low 60s F fermentation


I'll have to adjust it a bit for the water volume, I'll probably do a dunk sparge mash out with this one.


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## katzke (17/7/10)

Daddymem said:


> Batch Size: 5.00 gal
> Boil Size: 6.02 gal



Your boil off really that low? With all those hops you will lose almost a gallon with break and hops.

I am in a dry climate and use a converted keg. The figure I use in my program is 1.16 gallons an hour for boil off.

So I would think you will need to start with something closer to 7 gallons or more for a 90 minute boil and plan on ending up with 5.5 to account for kettle lose. It all depends on what software you are using, as some are more correct then others in how they figure water. I do know that if you plan on getting 5 gallons from the kettle you will not be drinking 5 gallons of beer. You will lose some to the yeast in the fermentor.


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## daddymem (17/7/10)

As I said, I haven't done anything with my water volumes yet. I know this is pushing the limits of my equipment so I will probably need to move some of the water to a mash out. For 5 gallons and a 90 minute boil, I'll be shooting for 7.5 gallons preboil. I just haven't futzed with my proposed mash with Beersmith yet.


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## katzke (17/7/10)

Daddymem said:


> As I said, I haven't done anything with my water volumes yet. I know this is pushing the limits of my equipment so I will probably need to move some of the water to a mash out. For 5 gallons and a 90 minute boil, I'll be shooting for 7.5 gallons preboil. I just haven't futzed with my proposed mash with Beersmith yet.



Dont forget your efficiency either. You have it set to 75%. I doubt you will get 75% at that gravity. Better to have more grain and higher then expected gravity then low gravity and have to boil it down before hopping. As a bit of insurance you may want to have some dry extract on hand. Not sure but I think you can source maris otter or something close in the USA.


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## daddymem (17/7/10)

Thanks, I have to look what I got for efficiency on my collaborative brewing session, I aimed low and ended up hitting high. Still interested in percentages and ingredients now. These things are all small details you work out after you get the big details.


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## daddymem (19/7/10)

Ahhh, I see the confusion. I don't use Beersmith to complete my recipes usually. I do hand calculations and spreadsheets. I use the software for the base recipe then I adjust volumes by hand and re-input for IBU calculations. When I get my ingredient percentages set, I take a stab at efficiency and readjust the quantities. I don't use the mash calculators in Beersmith so my default is bogus. I meant to delete that part of the text file.


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## daddymem (20/7/10)

Some of my labels:


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## bcp (20/7/10)

Mate, love the labels. Beer and celebrating life. Beer as a muse... drink to things that matter. Or don't matter as the case may be.


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## daddymem (22/7/10)

Thanks. "Love beer, Love Life


bcp said:


> Mate, love the labels. Beer and celebrating life. Beer as a muse... drink to things that matter. Or don't matter as the case may be.


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## daddymem (21/9/10)

I think I've got the hang of it a year and a half of exclusive BIAB!


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## daddymem (21/9/10)

I wrote up my methods of madness here: http://littlehouseonthesandpit.wordpress.c...ogy-you-choose/ if anyone is interested.


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## RdeVjun (21/9/10)

Daddymem said:


> I wrote up my methods of madness here: http://littlehouseonthesandpit.wordpress.c...ogy-you-choose/ if anyone is interested.


Great work! :icon_cheers: 

Q. Can I ask why you add the salt water (i.e. water profile adjustment for those unwilling to read TFA) after the grain? I thought that some salts needed to be dissolved in the water to get the chemistry right beforehand, although I'm aware that some brewers add salts to the boil too (as well as the mash). Just curious and happy to be informed.


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## daddymem (22/9/10)

Hadn't really thought of it but it is almost at the same time. The grains go in and the salts are in within a minute or so. I could add the Chloride/sulfate ratio salts to the boil and not the mash, I just happen to add them all in at once. Water building is not one of my strengths, I can use any and all advice. Essentially, what I think I know is that can adjust your water for the mash using the SRM and corresponding desireable Residual Alkalinity, and do an adjustment in the boil kettle for Chloride/Sulfate ratio for the bitterness/maltiness of the beer you are brewing. My water is very void of minerals so I tend to adjust when doing beers on the dark side.



RdeVjun said:


> Great work! :icon_cheers:
> 
> Q. Can I ask why you add the salt water (i.e. water profile adjustment for those unwilling to read TFA) after the grain? I thought that some salts needed to be dissolved in the water to get the chemistry right beforehand, although I'm aware that some brewers add salts to the boil too (as well as the mash). Just curious and happy to be informed.


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## daddymem (25/9/10)

Just listened to a podcast by Palmer and Jamil and I guess I was doing it right after all. The salts are easier to dissolve into the mash because the pH will drop once the grains are in. But there is the ability to do mash and boil additions. The salts needed for the mash have to do with the residual alkalinity. The salts for flavor can be added into the boil.(chloride/sulfate ratio).


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## RdeVjun (26/9/10)

Good work! Makes sense too.

I've been adding my salts to a small amount of strike water with a pinch of citric acid to dissolve them- things like Gypsum are reluctant to dissolve. I don't add 5.2 to that though, seems to precipitate other complexes out so it goes into the kettle.

Thanks for that, :icon_cheers:


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## katzke (26/9/10)

RdeVjun said:


> Good work! Makes sense too.
> 
> I've been adding my salts to a small amount of strike water with a pinch of citric acid to dissolve them- things like Gypsum are reluctant to dissolve. I don't add 5.2 to that though, seems to precipitate other complexes out so it goes into the kettle.
> 
> Thanks for that, :icon_cheers:


Why would you add 5.2 to the boil?

It is designed for the mash and to keep the mash pH at the optimal for conversion.

Gypsum will desolve just fine in water. Chalk is what does not disolve in water.


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## RdeVjun (26/9/10)

katzke said:


> Why would you add 5.2 to the boil?
> 
> It is designed for the mash and to keep the mash pH at the optimal for conversion.


Actually I don't, it goes into the BIAB kettle with the strike water and before the grist. It would be pointless adding 5.2 to the boil, as you're obviously aware.


katzke said:


> Gypsum will desolve just fine in water. Chalk is what does not disolve in water.


That just hasn't been my experience I'm afraid, the gypsum I'm using seems reluctant to dissolve in rainwater, but a mildly acidic, warm solution seems to help.


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## daddymem (26/9/10)

What is the consensus on this side of the pond? I hit a hornet's nest on my side in a forum. Seems there is disagreement on how SRM and residual alkalinity are linked. It seems the new idea is to add 1 tsp Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons, adjust your chloride sulfate ratio if needed, take a pH reading and have some acid ready to drop the pH down.


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## katzke (27/9/10)

Daddymem said:


> What is the consensus on this side of the pond? I hit a hornet's nest on my side in a forum. Seems there is disagreement on how SRM and residual alkalinity are linked. It seems the new idea is to add 1 tsp Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons, adjust your chloride sulfate ratio if needed, take a pH reading and have some acid ready to drop the pH down.



I can guess what forum blasted you for trying to use science in brewing. The reason why I gave up on them.

I think they are half-correct. Color of the wort and residual alkalinity is linked. The problem comes in with how much color and the grain bill and even mash thickness. Here is a site that you can read about it. http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...tanding_Mash_pH

This is one case where Palmer has a great contribution and it can go wrong because it is over simplified. That said I use his excel spreadsheet to do my calculations. I have found they do not work on wheat beers as I have found wheat beers tend to be more acid then they should be by color only.

So why did you get a big stink over color and residual alkalinity on those forums? Most likely because the people that did it are not forum friendly. They may have had a bad experience with the concept. It could be they made mistakes in the input or the water was not as expected or they are just jerks.

I can say that after I started to treat and pH test my mash water my beers have been better. Playing with bitterness ratios has helped with the flavor. I may even look at doing boil additions if I have trouble balancing the pH correction and flavor enhancement. So far I have not had that much trouble. It would make it easier.

Blanket water treatment as you suggested others are doing is a real bad idea. Not everyones water is the same and in areas where they switch from surface to wells at the change of the seasons the water can change drastically.


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## daddymem (1/10/10)

I reworked the numbers and then bounced them off Mr. Palmer and revised slightly again. Still a few questions.
In the spreadsheet I use it has a chloride sulfate ratio section with:
_Below .50, Style = Very Bitter_ _.50 to .77, Style = Bitter_ _.77 to 1.3, Style = Balanced_ _1.3 to 2.0, Style = Malty_ _Above 2.0, Style = Very Malty_ How would one determine where your beer sat in these ranges? I mean an altbier in malty to very malty is probably ok and an IPA in bitter or verry bitter the same. My RIS is currently 77 IBU with a BU GU just around 1. Where would that sit?

I'm still fiddling with the recipe as far as hops. 77 is the current IBU. With a 5 year age, should I go higher? How high?



I'm also thinking about adjusting my boil time. I lose 1 gallon per half hour so a 90 minute boil will give me a little more water for a thinner mash. Sound like a good idea?

5.25 final batch
.05 gal/# absorption = 1.15 
2 gal/hr boil off x 90 minutes = 3
Total = 9.4 gallons

Say7.5 mash and 2 sparge.
Starting Water (ppm): 


Ca: 2 

Mg: 1.1 

Na: 6.5 

Cl: 8.4 

SO4: 4.1 

HCO3: 11 





Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7.5 / 2 RO or distilled %: 0% / 0% 



Total Grain (lb): 23 

Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0.5 

Roasted Grain: 3.5 

Beer Color (SRM): 54 





Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle: 


CaSO4: 6 / 0 CaCl2: 4 / 0 MgSO4: 3 / 0 NaHCO3: 10 / 0 NaCl: 0 / 0 CaCO3: 0 / 0 Lactic Acid (ml): 0 

Sauermalz (oz): 0 





Mash Water / Total water (ppm): 


Ca: 88 / 70 Mg: 11 / 9 Na: 103 / 83 Cl: 76 / 62 SO4: 163 / 130 Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.47 / 0.48 



Alkalinity (CaCO3): 220 

RA: 151 

Estimated pH: 5.17 



Note: it is CaCO3 not HCO3, there is a label error in the spreadsheet and for some reason, my Firefox HATES this forum's reply box and won't let me edit things after I type them. Must be a Yankee filter or something.


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## katzke (1/10/10)

Is it me or does the NA seem high. You can change to Calcium Carbonate as long as you add it in the mash. If you put it in the strike water it will settle unless you stir well just before you add the grain. It will also help raise the calcium level for you. I like to be over 100.


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## daddymem (1/10/10)

katzke said:


> Is it me or does the NA seem high. You can change to Calcium Carbonate as long as you add it in the mash. If you put it in the strike water it will settle unless you stir well just before you add the grain. It will also help raise the calcium level for you. I like to be over 100.



I could adjust that. This is actually adjusted down a bit per Palmer's recommendation. I was avoiding chalk as this salt seems to be the one with the most disagreement on how much and what effect it really has. Having said that, a couple grams shouldn't be an issue. Sometimes the noggin gets stuck in the gopher hole and I need to peer up to see where I am. Thanks!


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## katzke (2/10/10)

Daddymem said:


> I could adjust that. This is actually adjusted down a bit per Palmer's recommendation. I was avoiding chalk as this salt seems to be the one with the most disagreement on how much and what effect it really has. Having said that, a couple grams shouldn't be an issue. Sometimes the noggin gets stuck in the gopher hole and I need to peer up to see where I am. Thanks!



If you are worried about using it, I think Braukaiser has a discussion on pre dissolving and it gets converted from carbonate to bicarbonate as I recall. Not sure where that is. It may be in the spreadsheet.


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## daddymem (2/10/10)




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## daddymem (23/11/10)




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## daddymem (21/12/10)




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## daddymem (23/1/11)




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## felten (23/1/11)

Did you contemplate calling it the spruce goose? What does spruce taste like anyway?


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## daddymem (23/1/11)

The flavor of the uncarbonated beer is cola-y.


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## daddymem (17/2/11)

The Don't Bring Me Down (Spruce beer) is very good. It does have a cola-y taste to it, I think a bit more spruce would pronounce it better. I would do it again, it is a nice dark winter beer, but I'd add more spruce and perhaps shoot for all grain.


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