# Efficiency frustration



## jibba02 (28/10/15)

I am in the process of my 4th alll grain brew on my new system. Fro the first 3 batches i started with a brewhouse efficiency of 72% Beersmith default. With all brews coming well under Beersmith estimated SG.

For the below brew, i have lowered Beersmith efficiency to 60% and i still undershot by 20 points!!!!
For my current brew (RYE IPA) Beersmith states a pre boil volume of 29.46l (Measured 32l @ 1.012 final running's). Beersmith states pre boil gravity 1.060 (Measured 1.040)
Sparge method was Fly Sparging. Mash temp 66.5. checked with 3 thermometers .
Only thing i have not checked is mash P.H.


Where am i going wrong?


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## kaiserben (28/10/15)

What system do you use? 

And is the sample you're taking from wort that is well-mixed? (the lower gravity sparge water might be sitting at the top where you're taking the sample from, for example).


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## Danscraftbeer (28/10/15)

Some more details of your equipment could help. I mash in an 75lt esky. I have a 55lt Keggle. I boil/heat water in 16lt kettle on the stove. I multi batch sparge until I get a pre boil volume of up to 55lt for a 38lt batch. Basically that's always larger pre boil then Beersmith will estimate.
9 times out of ten I overshoot all Beersmiths estimations. I get higher OG and lower FG, higher ABV. So much so that I have to adjust the potential gravity of the grains I use so that beersmith calculations are close to the results I get. Default potential of grains are usually 1.035 I up that figure to 1.040 and it all works out. That's the opposite of what your getting I don't know if it helps much. I am gradually dabbling in water chemistry that seems to be working too. I don't bother trying to measure mash efficiency but the Beersmith brewhouse measured efficiency are between 70 to 80%.


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## Yob (28/10/15)

Fly sparging too fast?

What are you using to test gravity?


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

kaiserben said:


> What system do you use?
> 
> And is the sample you're taking from wort that is well-mixed? (the lower gravity sparge water might be sitting at the top where you're taking the sample from, for example).


It is a 3 keg system gas fired. Yes the wort was well mixed.


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## warra48 (28/10/15)

Fly sparging? Bet you are channeling, rather than rinsing the grains. And what Yob said.

Think about doing a simple full run off first and then a batch sparge to get to your volume, and see how it measures up compared to your fly sparge results.

Also, a mashout to raise the temperature of the mash will probably help your run off and efficiency.


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

Yob said:


> Fly sparging too fast?
> 
> What are you using to test gravity?


sorry forgot to mention i sparged 30l over 65min. Using a Refrac for measurements


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

warra48 said:


> Fly sparging? Bet you are channeling, rather than rinsing the grains.
> 
> Think about doing a batch run off and batch sparge to get to your volume, and see how it measures up compared to your fly sparge results.
> 
> Also, a mashout to raise the temperature of the mash will probably help your run off and efficiency.


I did a mash out on my first batch and was well under as well


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

Just did a gravity check on the spent grains after mixing and letting them steep for 30 min. gravity is only @ 1.014. So channeling while fly sparging doesnt seem to be the issue 

Grain crush is very fine


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## seamad (28/10/15)

If you're milling your own, I've found running it through twice at @ 1.1mm with a pre-wetting helped nudge my effeciency up a bit. I'm running a RIMS so it's a balance between getting stuck and effeciency. I also get a consistent 2-3% drop in effeciency with Maris Otter for some reason. With the refrac ( with ATC) I get some pretty wild readings on brew day due to temp variance or evaporization or something else and now just suck up some wort into a 5ml syringe and check the next day. When getting my numbers sorted I took samples of 1st runnings, sparge, pre and post boil to help work out what was what. Try to get @ 100ppm Calcium in your mash as well.

edit: just noticed the rye bit, I've found rye and raw wheat need an extra run or two through the mill by themselves first as they are a bit finer to start with, and some rice hulls too in the mash.


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

seamad said:


> edit: just noticed the rye bit, I've found rye and raw wheat need an extra run or two through the mill by themselves first as they are a bit finer to start with, and some rice hulls too in the mash.


yep i put the rye through twice. it come out like course flower


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

for my last 3 brews, the mash eff has been within 0.4% each other. So consistency doesnt seem to be an issue.


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## Damn (28/10/15)

How long you mashing for? When I changed from 60 to 90min my eff jumped 10-15-20%. I'm fairly green at this too, but that what's irks me about BeerSmith is that it doesn't adjust the eff according to the gravity of the beer. I now expect a lower eff on my higher gravity beers....or I should say a greater eff on my low gravity beers. Pistol Patch wrote a good article somewhere on BIAB eff. Try looking here http://www.biabrewer.info/


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## Danscraftbeer (28/10/15)

The heavier (high gravity) beers will always be lower in eff too.
A standard dry Pale is usually good eff. Say OG = 1.045, FG = 1.006 ABV = 5.1%. Maybe just go lighter with your grains you may be surprized to hit similar ABV as a heavier grain bill. Batch sparging allows you to gently stir the grains each time you load it with water. It can releases more sugars.


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## antiphile (28/10/15)

Would it be possible to export your recipe's .bsmx file and attach it to a post see see if there's anything in there that might help?


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

Bloody ****. i cant upload anything :huh:


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## TheWiggman (28/10/15)

What was your grain bill for the quoted recipe and what was the OG and volume? You overshot your volume which will always give you a lower gravity.
I've entered things incorrectly in Beersmith and got odd results that, on the surface, seemed normal.


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

5.2 kg pale malt
2.14 kg rye malt
.5 caramunich 1
.12kg chocolate

OG 1.050
FV 21.5l


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

According to this http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=298742
My pre sparge gravity should have been 1.099. as i had a ratio of 2.5l liquor per kg malt.

There is the 20 points i am missing, a my pre sparge gravity was only 1.080 .....


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## MHB (28/10/15)

To me it sounds like your L:G is way too low, if you are mashing in at 2.5:1 and aiming at a strike temperature of 66.5 I suspect your strike water is so hot it's killing a lot of your enzymes before it cools down enough to activate your Amylase - Your Beta Amylase would be in serious danger. Without doing the calculations I guess your strike water was up around 80-84oC.

You will be exacerbating the problem if you have milled fine as you say above.
with 8+kg in a 23L batch I would be expecting an OG over 1.100.
Try 5kg, cracked medium mashed in at least 3:1 (3.5:1 would be better), should give you a strike water temp around 71-72oC, fine grinds can be very difficult to sparge efficiently.

Back to basics
Mark


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## antiphile (28/10/15)

The thing that first catches my eye is a grain bill with more than 25% rye. It's not BIAB by the sound of it, and there's no mention of rice hulls or similar, so I'm rather surprised your not complaining of a stuck sparge (since it was a fine crush).

As several others have suggested, mash tun tunnelling seems a real possibility.

Edit added 8:00 pm. Plus what MHB said regarding the water:grain ratio with >25% rye.


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

MHB said:


> To me it sounds like your L:G is way too low, if you are mashing in at 2.5:1 and aiming at a strike temperature of 66.5 I suspect your strike water is so hot it's killing a lot of your enzymes before it cools down enough to activate your Amylase - Your Beta Amylase would be in serious danger. Without doing the calculations I guess your strike water was up around 80-84oC.
> 
> You will be exacerbating the problem if you have milled fine as you say above.
> with 8+kg in a 23L batch I would be expecting an OG over 1.100.
> ...


L:G ratio is what Beersmith has calculated so thats what i rolled with. my strike water is only a couple of degrees above mash temp. Mash tun is direct fired and temp is constant through out mash duration.

My first brew had the grain much courser and i still had low gravity problem.


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

antiphile said:


> The thing that first catches my eye is a grain bill with more than 25% rye. It's not BIAB by the sound of it, and there's no mention of rice hulls or similar, so I'm rather surprised your not complaining of a stuck sparge (since it was a fine crush).
> 
> As several others have suggested, mash tun tunnelling seems a real possibility.
> 
> Edit added 8:00 pm. Plus what MHB said regarding the water:grain ratio with >25% rye.


I am using a direct fired recirculating mash tun. no issues of stuck sparge.


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## antiphile (28/10/15)

Well, jibba, lots of people here (including several professional and very experienced brewers) have offered you advice; and yet it seems you'd prefer to ignore it. That, of course, is your option, though I would have thought with an open mind it could have been a great learning opportunity. The final thought I can leave you with is:



> Brewing with rye can be tricky proposition though, especially when the proportion of rye in the mash increases above about 15% of the total malt bill. To date, I have brewed quite a few rye beers, including a RoggenBock (55% rye), a 100% Rye Mash Ale, and a Rye ESB (10% Rye).
> Here are some of the takeaways that I have learned that should help you tame this ingredient. The top few tips deal mostly with beers that will have between 5-15% of the malt bill be rye, I will include a couple high proportion (greater than 50%!) tips at the end of the post.
> 
> *Recipe Design – *Rye will give a spicy flavor to the beer and give the beer a drier mouthfeel than your final gravity may indicate. Keep this in mind when converting recipes to include rye. Also keep in mind that the lighter flavored the beer, the more potent the effects the rye will have on the beer.
> ...


Source: http://homebrewacademy.com/tips-for-brewing-with-rye/

All the best of luck anyway. Farewell.


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

Ill also not that my previous brew was a SMASH and i have the same low efficiency!


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## doon (28/10/15)

The numbers dont make sense. One post you say pre boil volume of 29l. Another says you sparged with 30l. Are you simply over sparging?


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

antiphile said:


> Well, jibba, lots of people here (including several professional and very experienced brewers) have offered you advice; and yet it seems you'd prefer to ignore it. That, of course, is your option, though I would have thought with an open mind it could have been a great learning opportunity. The final thought I can leave you with is:


Ignoring what? I have read every post and replied to most.


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## MHB (28/10/15)

jibba02 said:


> L:G ratio is what Beersmith has calculated so thats what i rolled with. my strike water is only a couple of degrees above mash temp. Mash tun is direct fired and temp is constant through out mash duration.
> 
> My first brew had the grain much courser and i still had low gravity problem.


Frankly what you are doing isn't working, I would expect better than the sub 50% you are getting, mashing in a bucket wrapped in a towel.
Try going back to basics, a sensible amount of properly cracked grain and a practical L:G will go a long way toward fixing what is wrong.
Turn off the burner and just do a basic brew then introduce 1 change at a time until you identify the problem.
M


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

doon said:


> The numbers dont make sense. One post you say pre boil volume of 29l. Another says you sparged with 30l. Are you simply over sparging?


Beersmith states a pre boil of 29.46l. I sparged untill i had 30 - 32l in the kettle. final runnings were 1.012. Sparging took little over 1 hour


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## doon (28/10/15)

jibba02 said:


> sorry forgot to mention i sparged 30l over 65min. Using a Refrac for measurements


This is what im referring to. Just confused me as i take it as you have sparged 30l of water


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## seamad (28/10/15)

agree with doon
8kg grain @ 2.5L/kg is @ 20L strike water. Say 8L absorption leaves 12L first runnings. You sparged with 30L = 42L preboil.


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## micblair (28/10/15)

The liquor to grist ratio does come across as being a little on the thick side, however it's within acceptable range (2.5 - 5 L water per 1 kg of grain, Kunze).
Run a starch test before mashing out. It will at least eliminate one variable, i.e. complete conversion of starch. Given the low efficiency, we already suspect this to be true. However, theres a list of about 4 other things which I can think of, including those listed by other users.

1) Measuring equipment calibration (scales and temp. probes)
2) Improper milling (get some feeler gauges, or inspect the grist for >95% cracked grains, the remaining 4-5% should crumble with some agitation) 
3) incorrect strike temperature calculation. Note: A very thick mash will be quite insulating. You will still see soluble extract even if you've largely denatured your enzymes, however your fermentability will be low.
4) water composition, would certainly be worthwhile getting a water report, and adjusting within recognised ranges for optimal mash performance.


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## Barge (28/10/15)

antiphile said:


> Well, jibba, lots of people here (including several professional and very experienced brewers) have offered you advice; and yet it seems you'd prefer to ignore it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=452XjnaHr1A


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

seamad said:


> agree with doon
> 8kg grain @ 2.5L/kg is @ 20L strike water. Say 8L absorption leaves 12L first runnings. You sparged with 30L = 42L preboil.


Yep. what i was trying to say didnt come out right. I sparged for 65min and collected a total of 32 -32 litres in boil kettle


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

micblair said:


> 3) incorrect strike temperature calculation. Note: A very thick mash will be quite insulating. You will still see soluble extract even if you've largely denatured your enzymes, however your fermentability will be low.


for argument sake. If i were mashing at too high temp, say 80 degrees. Would i still get full conversion? All be it unfermentable sugars?


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## MHB (28/10/15)

No you would have killed all (well nearly all) the enzymes
We normally Mash Out at 78oC, a mash out is to stop the enzyme activity and to make the wort more fluid, if we go over 80oC we tend to start to extract too much of the harsh tannins from the husks.
Mark


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

MHB said:


> No you would have killed all (well nearly all) the enzymes
> We normally Mash Out at 78oC, a mash out is to stop the enzyme activity and to make the wort more fluid, if we go over 80oC we tend to start to extract too much of the harsh tannins from the husks.
> Mark


Thanks


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## Danscraftbeer (28/10/15)

Too much grain.
$0.02

I think this is normal. I jumped in too hard like, every other newbie all grain brewer trying to make the most mega best beer.
When I settled down a bit I tried to make lower ABV beer and used lesser grain bill. They still turned out at 5%. :huh: Your only 4 brews in its all cool. Record and recap on everything.


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

im wondering if my temp reading from the middle of the grain bed is a lot cooler than the bottom of the tun where the wort is pulled of and recirculated. On next brew, i will place a temp probe on the outlet and see what it reads.


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## jibba02 (28/10/15)

Danscraftbeer said:


> Too much grain.
> $0.02
> 
> I think this is normal. I jumped in too hard like, every other newbie all grain brewer trying to make the most mega best beer.
> When I settled down a bit I tried to make lower ABV beer and used lesser grain bill. They still turned out at 5%. :huh: Your only 4 brews in its all cool. Record and recap on everything.


Cheers mate. Still loving it, but a little frustrating. Despite all my problems the beer still taste great. just low %


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## Blind Dog (28/10/15)

MHB said:


> Frankly what you are doing isn't working, I would expect better than the sub 50% you are getting, mashing in a bucket wrapped in a towel.
> Try going back to basics, a sensible amount of properly cracked grain and a practical L:G will go a long way toward fixing what is wrong.
> Turn off the burner and just do a basic brew then introduce 1 change at a time until you identify the problem.
> M


What he said. 

You'll get there. Also remember Beersmith is a tool not a guru. I'd suggest a basic brew next time, higher grain to water ratio, measuring gravity with a hydrometer as well as the refractometer (never understood why you'd measure something obliquely when you can do it directly). You're still brewing beer


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## micblair (29/10/15)

jibba02 said:


> for argument sake. If i were mashing at too high temp, say 80 degrees. Would i still get full conversion? All be it unfermentable sugars?


Do a starch test if you really wanted to know.. Remember its a double edge sword. Increase temperature accelerates reaction rates, unfortunately your enzyme stability at this temperature encroaches the same range where it's also denatured. So you will simultaneously accelerated conversion and denaturation. I can't answer which one occurs first. But considering we mash 10C below mash-out temp, this probably answers your question.


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## Nizmoose (29/10/15)

I dont know if this is an option for you but I'd be tempted to do a batch using BIAB and the full mash volume (greatly increasing your liquor to grist ratio) and seeing if that spikes your efficiency, all you'd need is a bag and less vessels


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## jibba02 (29/10/15)

Nizmoose said:


> I dont know if this is an option for you but I'd be tempted to do a batch using BIAB and the full mash volume (greatly increasing your liquor to grist ratio) and seeing if that spikes your efficiency, all you'd need is a bag and less vessels


Great idea. Hopefully get a chance to test on the weekend


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## jibba02 (29/10/15)

First of all, thanks everyone for your input. Ive taken on board everything and now back to basics.

So tonight i conducted a little test as follows.

I made up a mash of JW pale malt with a ratio of 3:1 0.5kg malt, 1.5l water
I used my small Esky / Lunchbox to mash in.

I added boiling water to the esky to warm it up then tipped it out and added 1.5l of strike water @ 70 Degrees
I then added 0.5kg of milled grain. After milling the grain i could not find any whole grains, and husks were in good shape, not shredded to pieces .
The results were as follows.

0min @ 67 Degrees
30min 1.053 @ 66 Degrees
42min 1.057 @ 63.5 Degrees
55min 1.060 @ 63 Degrees
60min 1.060 @ 62 Degrees

After each gravity reading i vigorously stirred the mash.

From what i have read i am still well under first wort SG of 1.085 for a L-G ratio of 3:1

Soooo. I then added the mash back onto the stove top and heated the mash back upto 68 Degrees (not in the esky 

I then transferred back to esky and let steep for another 60 min without touching.

After a total of 120min mash time the final gravity was 1.068. Still a little low i think?


Please let me know what you think?

All gravity readings were with a Refractometer. I have just taken a gravity reading with a Hydrometer and it come to 1.066


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## Barge (29/10/15)

What did you use to measure the s.g.?

Edit: beat me to it. What temp was the hydrometer reading taken at?


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## seamad (29/10/15)

What water are you using?


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## jibba02 (29/10/15)

Barge said:


> What did you use to measure the s.g.?
> 
> Edit: beat me to it. What temp was the hydrometer reading taken at?


was @35.5 degrees so with beersmith calculator comes to 1.070


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## jibba02 (29/10/15)

seamad said:


> What water are you using?


Was just tap water with nothing added


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## Barge (29/10/15)

My guess at this stage would be pH. You could repeat the experiment tonight but include an acid rest. Not sure what the best temp would be as I've never done one. Something around 40C sounds about right. Then increase temp to sacc rest, mashout, etc.


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## jibba02 (29/10/15)

Barge said:


> My guess at this stage would be pH. You could repeat the experiment tonight but include an acid rest. Not sure what the best temp would be as I've never done one. Something around 40C sounds about right. Then increase temp to sacc rest, mashout, etc.


Cheers. Do you think water treatment would give me an extra 15+ gravity points?


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## jibba02 (29/10/15)

Ill be picking up some Weyermann pale malt on the weekend. Will do the same test with that.


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## Barge (29/10/15)

jibba02 said:


> Cheers. Do you think water treatment would give me an extra 15+ gravity points?


No idea how much of an improvement you will get, if any. To me it just seems the most likely culprit given the info. More experienced brewers than myself may have a better idea. If you are going to pick up some grain though you should probably consider some pH stabiliser such as 
http://craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=2538

Might be easier and will definitely take the pH variable out of play.


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## Mickcr250 (29/10/15)

If I were you I would crush really fine and do a biab. I had issues with my efficiency for my first 6-7 batch's until I got milled grain from craftbrewer and my efficiency jumped 15-20 points compared with the grain I was getting from my lhbs. Before this I had tried everything to no avail and wile I know you think you crush is fine just try it really fine as with biab it doesn't matter anyway.


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## seamad (29/10/15)

yep, run mine through the mill twice, got a decent jump in eff


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## mfeighan (29/10/15)

jibba02 said:


> Cheers. Do you think water treatment would give me an extra 15+ gravity points?


it sure can, depends on the ph and hardness of your water


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## jibba02 (29/10/15)

Thanks guys. will be getting some ph strips and water treatment. will also try very fine crush.


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## jibba02 (29/10/15)

This is pretty much spot on how my grains looked http://www.rcmodel.com.au/hobbyphoto/home-brew/3.jpg


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## seamad (29/10/15)

wrt the 5.2 stabilizer, from what I've read ( a long time ago, so maybe incorrect ) is that it works OK if your water is naturally high in carbonates, but not so well with other water profiles. I bought some once but have never used it after reading up on it. I aim for 100ppm Ca in the mash with Ca Chloride or Ca Sulphate ( gypsum), bit easier with my water , which is tank with very low tds.I measure pH with a lab type pH meter, an adjust with acid malt in the grain bill, or lactic acid.


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## MHB (29/10/15)

Just out of curiosity, what malt have you been using? 
Is it possible that it old and slack
Because; yes I agree your gravity should have been higher, around the 1.080+ you mentioned, I get 1.0825 just doing a quick calculation.
Where do you live maybe someone local can provide some information on your water, but I cant believe that any local water supply can be so bad as to knock 12.5-25% out of your mash efficiency (depending on which of your numbers you trust) - and still be classed as potable water under the relevant Australian standards.

Just chew on a bit of your malt, if its nice and crunchy its probably fine, if its doughie and mushy it could be the cause of your problem. 
Mark


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## Blind Dog (29/10/15)

Somethings going wrong somewhere. Your water may be a factor, but I doubt it's the whole answer (or even part of it without knowing where you're getting it from)

One other (possibly obvious) question - how did you calibrate your thermometer?


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## jibba02 (30/10/15)

Blind Dog said:


> One other (possibly obvious) question - how did you calibrate your thermometer?


Thermometers checked with boiling water. on brewday there were 6 Thermomoters used and all withi +/- 1 Degree of each other


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## jibba02 (30/10/15)

MHB said:


> Just out of curiosity, what malt have you been using?
> Is it possible that it old and slack
> Because; yes I agree your gravity should have been higher, around the 1.080+ you mentioned, I get 1.0825 just doing a quick calculation.
> Where do you live maybe someone local can provide some information on your water, but I cant believe that any local water supply can be so bad as to knock 12.5-25% out of your mash efficiency (depending on which of your numbers you trust) - and still be classed as potable water under the relevant Australian standards.
> ...


Malt was JW traditional ale. only about 2 months since i purchased and was placed into air tight drums the day after i picked it up. Malt is very crunchy .


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## MHB (30/10/15)

Well without being there and having a look for myself I'm basically out of ideas
Except one have you tested/calibrated your Refractometer?
Mark


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## jibba02 (30/10/15)

MHB said:


> Well without being there and having a look for myself I'm basically out of ideas
> Except one have you tested/calibrated your Refractometer?
> Mark


 refrac was 1 point different form hydrometer


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## Danscraftbeer (30/10/15)

Make another brew. Take it easy all the way. Take notes. You learn every brew.
I mash in an esky. Get strike water temperature right and just leave it for the 60min, 90min, I have left it overnight. No stress to worry about take the possess with lessure or while doing other things. Its so simple but from reading I don't think its a common practice. I get great efficiency without all the extra level of technology and my home brew is better than anything I have ever bought.


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## motman (30/10/15)

I'd suggest checking the ph every run. Only thing that seems to be missing from the above. I have been lucky enough to hit the mark all my limited brews but all the books seem to suggest it is critical to optimal enzymatic activity.


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## enoch (31/10/15)

Have I got the things covered thus far about right?
Thermometer calibration (in boiling water, are the six saying same at mash temp?)
Grain to water ratios
Fly versus batch sparging
ph
Mash temps
Grain milling
I haven't seen volume measurement but may have missed it.
Unless you are adding by weight or from a graduated jug I find it really hard to get this accurate. 
My boiler has markings on one side but a slightly off level surface causes a material error. A wide pot is more prone than a tall pot as the litres per cm of height are less.
Measuring mash water in an esky is harder still.
Are you comfortable you are ok with volumes? To test you could fill to volume you believe is x litres, immerse a tape measure at a few spots near the edges, convert the water heights to volumes and average the implied volumes and compare to your expected volume x.


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## Nizmoose (31/10/15)

I think someone mentioned grain before, what is your source? Is it all from the same bag? If so I'd be ordering some of the same Malt, milled by them from the hbs (even a different hbs if possible). If you get better efficiency with that grain you know that it's either your unmilled grain or your milling of it. This is all assuming you're using a large store of grain and are milling yourself


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## Jack of all biers (2/11/15)

jibba02 said:


> Mash tun is direct fired and temp is constant through out mash duration.
> 
> My first brew had the grain much courser and i still had low gravity problem.


Excuse me for any ignorance here, but "direct fired Mash tun"? I don't have one of these, but I'm guessing you use a heating element in the mash tun or gas fired underneath? Could it be that the source of your temp readings is showing you a correct temp (the mash temp you quoted), but underneath the temp is hotter?
I may be way off with my understanding of 'direct fired Mash tun' and how one uses it, but given you seem to have ruled out most things (and I agree that water profile and pH can't account for such a poor efficiency) then could temp pockets be an issue. I feel a direct answer coming on 'I stir the s**t out of it' or similar, but just having a stab.

If temp is not the issue and channelling also not the issue (given your experiment with the small test mash), may I suggest you give up where you live and meet up with someone else on this forum who lives nearby and they may see where you are going wrong.


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## jibba02 (2/11/15)

jibba02 said:


> First of all, thanks everyone for your input. Ive taken on board everything and now back to basics.
> 
> So tonight i conducted a little test as follows.
> 
> ...



Further testing has given me the following results.

I purchased some weyermann pale malt on the weekend and did exact test as above. All grain was milled with the same mill at the same gap. The results are as follows.

30min 1059 @66 Degrees
60min 1070 @ 63 Degrees

I am now getting 10 points higher with Weyermann malt!


Next comes the ph.
My tap water is coming out @ ph8
Mash ph6

Tonight i conducted the same test again but gone back to my stash of JW Pale malt to see if i can pull off better efficiency.
This time i added Calcium Sulfate to bring the mash ph down to 5.2. The results are as follows.

30min 1056
60min 1060

As you can see lowering the mash p.h has not altered my efficiency.

I have not had a custom water report done.


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## MHB (3/11/15)

Well its nice to see something improving, 15% better yield from the Weyermann
I have to ask - How much CaSO4 did you have to add to get from a pH of 8 down to 5.2? I suspect a little acid might be a better option, once you have enough Ca in the mash use Acid to finish the job.

It might be a good idea to do a couple of your little test mashes with purified water - I always use Pureau you can get it at Coles and Woolies, add enough Ca to get your 100ppm adjust with acid to ph5.2-5.5

That could eliminate any questions about your water, the predicted OG of your mash is pretty easy to calculate.
You need the Coarse Grind As Is Potential (cg-ai) as a percentage, for W Pale Ale it will be ~76% (Fine Grind Dry - Moisture - Coarse/Fine Difference) and your L:G in this case 3:1
OG in oP = cgai / L:G + cg-ai
oP = 0.76/(3+0.76) = 0.202 oP is W/W as a percentage so that is 20.2oP converts to well basically 1.081
Still a little way to go but a step in the right direction.
Mark


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## jibba02 (3/11/15)

Thanks Mark.

I used approx 6 grams of CaSO4.
I have a RO system for my drinking water. I will do the same test with that and see how i go.

Thanks heaps for the predicted OG equation. Very helpful


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## MHB (4/11/15)

There was something about your saying you used Calcium Sulphate to adjust the pH that rang an alarm bell.
CaSO4.2H2O is 23% Ca so 6g gives you 1380mg in 1.5L that is 920ppm Ca, just a touch on the high side, not to mention pushing the Sulphate out of bounds.
That's why I would suggest adding enough CaSO4 to get about 100 ppm (for 1.5L that's about 0.7g (0.652g) to maybe 150ppm, then use acid to adjust the pH.

The First Running's equation is very handy, bumped into it when designing a barley wine, very handy for parti gyle brewing to (as well as doing tests).
Mark


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## jibba02 (4/11/15)

Thanks Mark. I knew I had too much for the correct ppm. But didnt have any acid to use  do you have a recommendation on acid type? Lactic? Phosphoric?


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## MHB (4/11/15)

Lactic is certainly my personal 1st choice, but nitric, phosphoric, sulphuric and hydrochloric are all used. If you had any of them to hand I would use them at least for testing.
Lactic is a week acid and there is already a fair wack of it in malt so it's easier to use and you are just adding more of something that is already in the malt.
It is also a lot safer to handle than a lot of the other options, and can be a pretty powerful buffer to.

Mark


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## Norto (4/11/15)

I started reading this thread because I too have had bad Efficiency resulting in lower numbers but in the first few posts I reckon someone nailed it when they suggested a tunnelled sparge I reckon that is exactly what is happening with me. Oh well time to make a new sparge arm ...any suggestions?

Norto.


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## jibba02 (4/11/15)

Norto said:


> I started reading this thread because I too have had bad Efficiency resulting in lower numbers but in the first few posts I reckon someone nailed it when they suggested a tunnelled sparge I reckon that is exactly what is happening with me. Oh well time to make a new sparge arm ...any suggestions?
> 
> Norto.


I was thinking the same thing. But form the testing i conducted in the above posts, mash tunneling doesnt seem to be the issue for me.


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## enoch (4/11/15)

Pardon if I've missed it but where are you? There's got to be someone nearby to sit through a brew day and look for process issues.


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## Nizmoose (5/11/15)

Norto said:


> I started reading this thread because I too have had bad Efficiency resulting in lower numbers but in the first few posts I reckon someone nailed it when they suggested a tunnelled sparge I reckon that is exactly what is happening with me. Oh well time to make a new sparge arm ...any suggestions?
> 
> Norto.


Perhaps trying a batch sparge would at least confirm if it's the sparge or not? Dump all your sparge water in, give it a good stir, let it sit for a bit if you care to then drain and see if there's a difference?


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## Norto (5/11/15)

Nizmoose said:


> Perhaps trying a batch sparge would at least confirm if it's the sparge or not? Dump all your sparge water in, give it a good stir, let it sit for a bit if you care to then drain and see if there's a difference?


Yep Nizmoose I am going to do that exact thing mate thanks . :icon_cheers:


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## jibba02 (7/11/15)

So today i decided to do a brew with 100% RO water.

No minerals were added to the water. Not ideal but the water hasn't been tested so not sure what to add.

Brewing steps and temps were the same as the rest of my brews.
25 min into the mash i had a gravity reading of 1074 
60 min into the mash i had a gravity reading of 1079.
L:G 3:1

Going into fermenter i was 2 points lower than predicted and volume was spot on!

Win Win!!!

Next step is to get my RO water tested so i can make the correct mineral additions. My system claims to remove >95% TDS

Only other problem is it takes about 6 hours to filter 50l 


Thanks everyone for your input. Problem solved  :beerbang:


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## motman (7/11/15)

I thought ro is pretty well just water. I'd imagine you could treat as distilled and make up your water as desired with salts. Should save u the test costs.


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## jibba02 (7/11/15)

Yeah i dont think it would be far off distilled water


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## Nizmoose (8/11/15)

jibba02 said:


> Yeah i dont think it would be far off distilled water


If its actually RO water, shes just water  treat it as a blank canvas and build whatever modest and versatile water profile you want,whatever you've done it looks like its working well done!


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