# Cost Effective Quasi-hoegaarden Copy



## Mr.Moonshine (26/12/08)

Howdy!
First off, cheers for the great forum. You guys have been very helpful with brew ideas and troubleshooting with some of my more complicated brews. Much appreciated!

To get back on track though, I'm looking at making a hoegaarden tasting clone to give to mates at a barbeque coming up. I know a decent kit from the LHBS would be the go, but keeping costs down and at the same time making a quaffable beer is the goal (Sorry to the purists out there!). My plan was to use one of those Breweiser wheat kits from Big-W (As they seem to be the most accessible cost effective wheat kit around), as well as some orange peel, coriander (Seed or leaf?) and some light/wheat malt. Yeast will be coopers (nicked from a pale ale kit) unless I can get down to the LHBS. 

Does anyone have any experience with the breweiser wheat kits? Am I possibly barking up the wrong tree? :S



Cheers in advance


----------



## buttersd70 (26/12/08)

Haven't used the brewiser kits at all, so can't comment, and I know sfa about wheat beers. But as far as the spices are concerned, on the old Grumpys site they used to have a recipe (from the brewhaus, not on the forum) for a partial mash Hoegarden clone, and their reccomendation was 25g corriander seed and 20-30g of oven dried mandarin peel added 15 minutes before end of boil. I never brewed it, but it was a poplular recipe.

The only other reccomendation I could make is to definately use a proper wheat beer yeast.


----------



## Mr.Moonshine (26/12/08)

Sounds like a solid idea, cheers for those measurements. The wheat yeast seems to be the go, but I can't get down to the LHBS very often, just a poor student with no car ><. I'm pretty sure Hoegaarden is bottle conditioned (Been a while since I had a bottle), and the wiki would seem to indicate that it is, so I might try to reculture yeast from a bottle and use that.


----------



## Barramundi (26/12/08)

the hoe is bottle conditioned but some will have you believe its a different yeast than the one used to ferment it ...

i once made a hoe clone with a whispering wheat kit ,a tin of morgans wheat malt 10 gms coriander and 10 gms orange peel (try a sour type orange rather than a sweet one ).. it turned out qiute nicely drinkable


----------



## Smashin (26/12/08)

Agree with most replys here, just need to accentuate the need to use a suitable yeast fort he style or it just won't even come close to a hoegaarden (witbier). 

Basic recipe for a (extract) witbier:

50% wheat malt ext
50% pale malt ext
15-20 IBU of an earthy/herbal hop (EK golding is suprisingly in style, Hallertauer Tradition is my preference)
Steep 100g of rolled oats (just to add some grain freshness and oily mouth coating feel and shine to the bubbles, you can get away with this addition in a non-mash in this style as the final brew should be cloudy)
10g sweet orange peel (dried)
10g bitter orange peel (dried)
25g coriander seeds (if yours are very pungent and fresh you may wish to cut this back)
+ the brewers secret spice (a must)

yeast: i've used T-58 and WB-06 both with great success (which is better I can decide, both very tasty) but must ferment cool especially with the WB-06 (~18-20 deg) or the phenols will dominate, T-58 no so disasterous if the temp gets away from you.

Carbonation should be medium high, but not spritsy, too high and it will mask the subtly flavours.

Must be drunk fresh!!! <3 weeks

I cracked my (AG) witbier yesterday ooohhh aaahhh!!!. not 2 weeks from brew day absolutly beautiful (granted it is forced carbonated and filtered). My favorite summer quafing beer.

enjoy


----------



## Mr.Moonshine (26/12/08)

Smashin said:


> Basic recipe for a (extract) witbier:
> ...
> 15-20 IBU of an earthy/herbal hop (EK golding is suprisingly in style, Hallertauer Tradition is my preference)
> Steep 100g of rolled oats (just to add some grain freshness and oily mouth coating feel and shine to the bubbles, you can get away with this addition in a non-mash in this style as the final brew should be cloudy)



I've only got fuggles (10g) and Saaz (25g) hops handy, I'm not sure if they qualify as being particuarly earthy (Though saaz is pretty herbal and spicy). I know that hoegaarden is pretty light in the hops department, but I don't want an unbalanced brew.
Plan is now to use;
Breweiser wheat kit
500g LDME
500g Dex
150-200g honey
20-25g cracked coriander seed
20-30g orange peel
recultured yeast from hoegaarden bottle

Would it be a good idea to add either the fuggles or Saaz to this brew, or would that just screw it up?
Also, can the rolled oats be added to a K&K brew? It sounds like they'd be a good addition, but I'm not entirely sure how to use them.

Sorry for all the noobie questions, first time at a wheat beer ><



Cheers in advance


----------



## flattop (27/12/08)

ESB make a 3k kit which is supposed to be very good, i haven't tried it yet (but i have 2 here ready to go), my mate swears by them but they can be a bit hard to get in Melbourne


----------



## Smashin (27/12/08)

Mr.Moonshine said:


> I've only got fuggles (10g) and Saaz (25g) hops handy, I'm not sure if they qualify as being particuarly earthy (Though saaz is pretty herbal and spicy). I know that hoegaarden is pretty light in the hops department, but I don't want an unbalanced brew.
> Plan is now to use;
> Breweiser wheat kit
> 500g LDME
> ...




Fuggles would be my pick of the two as they are slightly grassy and do have that herbal note (i feel saaz would be too floral & belgiun brewing historically has an english influence). Even better would be old aged hops to keep the aroma low. Boil the fuggles for >40min to keep flavor and aroma low or crush your pellets an let stand for a day or two at room temp to allow the aroma to dereriorate. Keep the IBU under 20, it is a common mistake to brew a witbier that is too bitter. 

Given you have 10g of fuggle and assuming an aa% OF 4.5% if you boil them for 45min it will give you an IBU=17, just right imo (im assuming that the 'Breweiser wheat kit' is unhopped, other wise i wouldn't add any further hops).

yes rolled oats require mashing, steeping will leave starch present in the final beer (not such a problem in a witbier as the style is cloudy. Steeping 100g in a stocking in water ~70deg for 20min would release the oils and add a nice fresh grainy touch the beer.

Honey is an interesting touch, sounds great, if you haven't brewed with honey before keep additional low as the flavour can dominate although just thinking about it the flavous should fit into this style. Sound like a great addition for a witbier. Let us know how it goes.


----------



## boingk (27/12/08)

Awesome, just the thread I was wanting! I'm putting down a wit soon and just got all my questions along the lines of corriander/orange/hopping answered.

As for the honey, I'd definitely go for it - you ever had a Beez Neez? Not a bad drop and the honey comes through nicely, a very pleasant touch. I know I'll be using around 200g in mine for sure. Not too sure if I'll go the corriander and orange route though...probably use some Saaz that I've got lying around instead. Thinking about 10g @ 20 minutes, not much. I'll let you know how it goes if you want, Mr Moonshine.

Cheers - boingk


----------



## Bizier (27/12/08)

I made a recipe with a mate for a Hoegaarden clone called *Hobogaarden* 

This is what we ended up brewing:

Recipe Gravity: 1.049 OG
Recipe Bitterness: 17 IBU
Recipe Color: 6 SRM
Estimated FG: 1.012
Alcohol by Volume: 4.8%
Alcohol by Weight: 3.7%

Ingredients
-----------
Coopers Wheat malt extract 1.50 kg, Extract, Extract
German pilsener 1.00 kg, Grain, Mashed
Joe White Torrified wheat 1.00 kg, Adjunct, Mashed
Joe White Wheat Malt 0.50 kg, Grain, Mashed
Coopers Brew Sugar 250g

Northern Brewer 10.00 g, Pellet, 60 minutes
Saaz 20.00 g, Pellet, 5 minutes
Saaz 20.00 g, Pellet, 30 minutes

WLP400 Belgian Witbier yeast 1.00 unit, Yeast, 1.2L Starter 120g DME
Corriander Seed 10.00 unit, Spice, 7g fine ground end boil
Generic 1.00 unit, Other, Zest of 4 oranges - end boil
Wheat Flour 1.00 unit, Other, 1 Tsp in boil for haze
chamomile 16.00 unit, Spice, 16g end boil

Notes
-----
Recipe Notes:
90 minute boil


There was a huge problem that the fermenter imparted a HUGE ginger characteristic from the previous brew which was a ginger beer. It is pretty spot on with both the Feral and Wicked Elf witbiers, except for this huge ginger note. :icon_vomit:

ED: *CAVEAT BREWER: leave fermenter in sun after a stinky brew!!!*

Where are you based Mr.Moonshine? If you are in Syd, you could swing by for a bottle, which includes a decent bit of WLP400.

Dan


----------



## Bizier (27/12/08)

Here was my suggestion for doing it on a budget (prices were from craftbrewer a month or so ago)

*Hobogaarden - Dan's Cheap-arse Suggestion*

* Coopers Cerveza $14 woolies
* 30g Corriander Seed
* Peel of 1 mandarin / steal some of Ol' Papa Giovanni's cumquats
* 1kg Wheat Malt Organic (Weyermann) $5
* 1kg Pilsner Galaxy Malt (Barrett Burston) $4
* 1kg Wheat Flaked/Torrified (Blue Lake) $5.20
* 14g Saaz 
* Recultured yeast from Hogaarden

ED: unrelated pasted content removed.


----------



## RetsamHsam (27/12/08)

To get anything close to a Witbier you will need to use some unmalted/torrefied wheat which will need to mashed with some base malt.. 

You can get the unmalted/torrefied wheat from a healthfood store for about $4/kg and some base malt by mail order from one of the site sponsors for about the same price.

Sit all of the grains in some water at about 65 degrees for 60-90 minutes drain the liquid out and run some hot water through the grains, boil all of this with your spices/hops/orange peel for at least 30 minutes then add to your malt extract and ferment with the cultured yeast from your hoegarden bottle... 

That's my suggestion, you will get something far closer to the original without blowing the budget!!


----------



## Bizier (27/12/08)

And for a third post...

I want to stress that the orange zest / corriander / chamomile need to be done with a light hand.

I suggest zest 0.5-1 fresh orange, 5-10g corriander and maybe 5-7g chamomile. My brew ended up very similar to the Wicked Elf and Feral, but Hoegaarden is a MUCH more subtle brew.

IMHO the hoegaarden has a different yeast taste to WLP400, which is more dough-ey, though this might be to do with the QTY of yeast in the glass.

I also think that a partial mash using pilsner malt + some source of wheat is the best way to go here, and you CAN build off a supermarket can if you do this.

that is Dan's 2c ramble


----------



## Mr.Moonshine (27/12/08)

High excellence, there are alot of good additions out there  I reckon you're on the money about the need to partial mash the wheat, but I don't have much of a boiler for that. Only got a 5l or so pot for the stovetop, and virtually no kind of temperature indicator for that at all >< I might try to pick up a thermometer and give it a go though, if I can dig up some of the 2-row I've got lying around somewhere.

Sorry Dan, based in melbourne, so Sydney is a bit of a drive  Cheers for the invite though, much appreciated

Hoping this one should turn out OK, got my fingers crossed 

Mr. Moonshine


----------



## Bizier (27/12/08)

You could use a big salad bowl or anything similar with 2 row and wheat in a thick mash + sparge, and strain to get your 5L boil (maybe use any second runnings in your second largest pot with a little of your hop additions). Better than nothing.

Yes, buy or re-culture your yeast... less money going to OPEC that way.


----------



## mfdu (27/12/08)

im interested in this one, as a way to make and do.
and i dont want to go thirsty! :beerbang: 

i got a can or morgans golden saaz pilsner from SWMBO for christmas, but i already have a bohemian pils on the gurgle in the back fridge.

so i'm wondering about this -

1.7kg morgans golden saaz pilsner +

(boil)
30 mins -
100g rolled oats (or white flour?)
10 mins - 
1kg light dried wheat malt 
20g dried bitter peel
20g coriander seeds 

+ hops? morgans say not to boil their kits, so i wont. there should be plenty of saaz in there already. so of course, i could always go out of character with 20g amorillo or galaxy (nelson sauvin?) at flameout - would that be a bold statement, or unwise? 

wheat beer yeast (LHBS) -
toss in at 18degrees
ferment at 12 degrees 

is that a yay, or a nay?

chris.


----------



## Bizier (27/12/08)

mfdu said:


> wheat beer yeast (LHBS)



Just to clear things up we are all talking about Belgian "Wit Bier" right, not a German "Hefeweizen"? They are considerably different beers, though share similarities.

I would suggest keeping it simple: kit + dry wheat malt + maybe a tiny saaz flavour addition + a liquid yeast.
Or just use the kit as intended to compare to your Bo Pils.

My opinion only, but I think these euro beers are best kept simple and reserved... I know Chimay uses US grown hops, but it is hardly an APA.


----------



## Smashin (27/12/08)

Bizier said:


> Just to clear things up we are all talking about Belgian "Wit Bier" right, not a German "Hefeweizen"? They are considerably different beers, though share similarities.
> 
> I would suggest keeping it simple: kit + dry wheat malt + maybe a tiny saaz flavour addition + a liquid yeast.
> Or just use the kit as intended to compare to your Bo Pils.
> ...




Exactly my frustration, I felt the post was started as a kit & kilo method. Please if we really want to get started on traditional methods then a new thread should be started. As for a basic k&k representation my original posts still stand.


----------



## mfdu (29/12/08)

i'm sticking to the kit 'n a bit. dunno what you guys are on.

well, thanks for the feedback on the morgans Pilsner + wheat malt + orange zest/coriander + wb06 yeast (for the banana). i thought it was valid, and right on topic.

unless someone has any better ideas, i'll move forward with cunning plan #1 (above)

cheers, and many merries!
chris.


----------



## Bizier (29/12/08)

mfdu said:


> well, thanks for the feedback on the morgans Pilsner + wheat malt + orange zest/coriander + wb06 yeast (for the banana). i thought it was valid, and right on topic.



WB06 is, as far as I can see, tending toward the German Hefe rather than a Belgian Wit. While your spice adjuncts indicate a Belgian Wit recipe. Have you ever tasted considerable banana in a Hoegaarden compared to say Schofferhofer?

http://www.germanbeerguide.co.uk/hefeweiz.html

"With the exception of Gose, German wheat beer brewers don't add coriander or other botanicals and spices to their beer as Belgian brewers do."


----------



## mfdu (29/12/08)

aaah that's what i been wondering. i'm guessing then its the belgian style i'm hankering for.

well, i can but try. i'll hope to get the brew down after NYE.

chris.


----------



## Bizier (29/12/08)

mfdu said:


> aaah that's what i been wondering. i'm guessing then its the belgian style i'm hankering for.
> 
> well, i can but try. i'll hope to get the brew down after NYE.
> 
> chris.



Keep the spices very restrained because they are only supposed to provide background notes. For a balanced approach, I suggest halving whatever you think, then add more next time if you feel it lacks those flavours. Compare a Wicked Elf or a Feral to a Hoegaarden and see which end of the spice spectrum you prefer.

The pilsener kit will probably have twice the hops you want for a wit, but I couldn't find any specs regarding that can.

Ditch the oats and flour unless you are mashing with them, even then just use raw/torrefied wheat.

Use a liquid yeast, or re-culture from commercial beer - it is the only way for this one.


----------



## Mr.Moonshine (29/12/08)

Just a quick question, I think I might be having a problem with my hoegaarden culture (never recultured yeast from the bottle ><) I've been feeding it progressively for the past couple of days, but when I smell it it has an odd tang to it and it tastes a bit sour. Have I maybe got it infected? Also, when reculturing yeast, should I be able to actually SEE the yeast growing and accumulating in the bottle? I've been swirling it 'round a fair bit, but I'm not sure there's a very large amount of yeast in it

Sorry again for all the noob questions, I just don't want to go to all the effort of a partial mash and then pitch an infection or a poor culture straight into the brew ><

Cheers

Mr.Moonshine


----------



## Bizier (29/12/08)

Before you risk a big batch, try it in a larger starter.. if no good turf it.

I've never re-cultured yeast. I am too chickensh*t. Will try when I have a stir plate.


----------



## Mr.Moonshine (29/12/08)

Bizier said:


> Before you risk a big batch, try it in a _larger starter_.. if no good turf it.



What exactly do you mean by larger starter? The whole culture is already in an almost full 2l bottle (I think I may have overdone the water and made it a bit watery ><). Should I maybe re-pitch it into a new starter and culture again? It's not really a bad flavour, it's just aromatic and a bit odd. Not what I expected with the yeast of a wheat beer. Maybe it's that I have a lager yeast bottling strain and there are odd aromas coming through because of the temperature over here? (It's pretty warm in melb at the moment, owing to it being summer)


----------



## gap (29/12/08)

Did you gradually build up your culture or just add the 2L direct to the dregs in the bottle?

Regards


Graeme


----------



## Bizier (29/12/08)

Mr.Moonshine said:


> What exactly do you mean by larger starter? The whole culture is already in an almost full 2l bottle (I think I may have overdone the water and made it a bit watery ><). Should I maybe re-pitch it into a new starter and culture again? It's not really a bad flavour, it's just aromatic and a bit odd. Not what I expected with the yeast of a wheat beer. Maybe it's that I have a lager yeast bottling strain and there are odd aromas coming through because of the temperature over here? (It's pretty warm in melb at the moment, owing to it being summer)



Lager yeast bottling strain? We are talking a Hoegaarden re-culture here right?

What was your process?


----------



## Mr.Moonshine (29/12/08)

Bizier said:


> Lager yeast bottling strain? We are talking a Hoegaarden re-culture here right?
> 
> What was your process?




I boiled up some water, added it to 25-50g LDME, cooled it down to <30 degrees, and added that to a 2l coke bottle which I'd washed and sterilised with hot water. then, I added the muck from the bottom of a few bottles of hoegaarden, and attatched the coke lid which had an airlock stuck in it. I've waited, and smelled and tasted the stuff in it now, and I know there's yeast in there which are working but I'm fairly sure now that it's either a weird yeast, or the whole thing is infected, and I'm getting this weird smell and tang which is quite funky and strange. I'm just a bit appreshensive about the whole thing seeing as it would just utterly bone the brew if it turned out infected. I'm sure there is yeast there, although I've not seen any serious airlock activity (Which the reading I've done here shows is not a big indicator).

I'm well confused now, I had planned to mash and set this to ferment tonight >< What do I do?

* I built the whole thing up, it was only about 400ml when I started, just been adding water and LDME to it since ona daily basis


----------



## Bizier (29/12/08)

The generally accepted ratio of DME : Water is 100g : 1,000ml

You want to be ultra sanitary because you are dealing with a tiny amount of yeast, so the ratio of yeast to anything else is much worse than an infection when using bought yeast.

Boil any DME additions for 15 mins.
Sanitise any vessels with a no-rinse for ages.
Try to eliminate breezes, draughts, and airbourne bacterial sources.
Flame the mouth of your commercial bottle, and do not touch it.
Start tiny and build up - maybe 100ml - 200ml - 400ml

A successful yeast farmer may be more useful here.

If it were me, I'd scrap this starter and call it an excuse to buy more Hoegaarden.


----------



## Mr.Moonshine (29/12/08)

Bizier said:


> The generally accepted ratio of DME : Water is 100g : 1,000ml
> 
> You want to be ultra sanitary because you are dealing with a tiny amount of yeast, so the ratio of yeast to anything else is much worse than an infection when using bought yeast.
> 
> ...



Cheers for the advice mate, I'm thinking that's the go. I popped down to the bottlo just before to pick up some hoegaarden, and I'm making up the wort for the starter now. I'm starting the yeast in one of the hoegaarden bottles, with a balloon over the end of the bottle to act as an airlock. I'm thinking 2 days will be enough for it to have started? 

Fingers crossed it'll work this time ><

Mr. Moonshine


----------



## buttersd70 (29/12/08)

Mr.Moonshine said:


> I know there's yeast in there which are working but I'm fairly sure now that it's either a weird yeast, or the whole thing is infected, and I'm getting this weird smell and tang which is quite funky and strange.



If in doubt, throw it out. Better to ditch a starter than a whole batch.

Use the same method as for coopers yeast in the wiki here 
discussion article on that wiki is here 

I would be stepping up to 1.5L after 2-3 days, as others have commented on in the discussion thread.


----------



## mfdu (29/12/08)

i knew there was a reason i'm keeping away from yeast starters for the moment - learning one step at a time. Mr. Moonshine, i hope your starter works out!

re. wicked elf vs. ho-garden, i can say for sure i'm looking at the wicked elf end of the story. so that means being a little heavier on the spices etc huh?

therefore, the morgans 'golden saaz' + wheat malt could be taking me down the right path.


c.


----------



## Bizier (29/12/08)

My recent batch was very similar to both Elf and Feral, which was reassuring, but I find all to be over-spiced IMO. I am using the definition from somewhere in Brew Like a Monk, something along the lines of being able to single out spices, rather than the spices providing a background depth of flavour.

Add them in by all means, it is definitely to style if you are using a wit yeast. I merely suggest starting very light and working from there, rather than the other way around.


----------



## Mr.Moonshine (7/2/09)

Just thought I'd follow up on how the beer turned out thanks to everyones advice 
Bottles were bulk primed with sugar and left for about 1.5 weeks to carbonate.
Taste is quite tart, but with a fair amount of smoothness (Which I would say was probably the honey), and some nice spicy balanced citrus/coriander notes. Very refreshing, easily my favorite homebrew so far 

Cheers again for the advice,

Mr.Moonshine


----------

