# NEIPA Recipe Critique?



## Luxo_Aussie (16/10/20)

G'day All,

Done some research including the dos&don'ts, now ready to crack on with the following :

New England IPA | Batch Size: 25.00 L | Est Original Gravity: 1.060
Bitterness: 22.3 IBUs | Est Color: 5.5 EBC | Est Mash Efficiency: 88.3 %

0.150 kg Oat Husks/Rice Hulls (0.0 EBC) Adjunct
2.100 kg Extra Light Pilsner (Weyermann) (2.5 EBC) Grain
2.100 kg Golden Promise - Low Colour (Simpsons) (3.0 EBC) Grain
0.850 kg Oats, Flaked Jumbo (2.0 EBC) Grain
0.300 kg Wheat Malt (3.5 EBC) Grain
0.300 kg Wheat, Flaked (3.0 EBC) Grain
7.00 g Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop
70.00 g Citra [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min, 75.0 C Hop
35.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [11.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 m… Hop
35.00 g Vic Secret [20.60 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min, 75.0 C Hop
1.0 pkg London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) [124 ml] Yeast
30.00 g Citra [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 2.0 Days Hop
15.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [11.80 %] - Dry Hop 2.0 Days Hop
15.00 g Vic Secret [20.60 %] - Dry Hop 2.0 Days
100.00 g Citra [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days before botting Hop
50.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [11.80 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days before botting Hop
50.00 g Vic Secret [20.60 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days before botting Hop

Seems like this should be on the right path. First 2 day hops to be added for two days only at high krausen and then add the final hops a few days before bottling. Rate is 16g/L. Mash would be high 67-69 ish to ensure some sweetness remains and I'll probably have the water chemistry high in chlorides (~250) & medium level for sulfates/calcium (~150). Oxidation is a huge concern, buying some CO2 to hopefully minimize during hop additions. Any feedback on this recipe?

Cheers & Thanks!


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## kadmium (16/10/20)

I would simplify the grain bill a fair bit. There is no point in my opinion going with such a complex bill as it won't be noticed. I like a strong malty backbone to lend sweetness, and so I do all Maris Otter as the base. I also add Oats (quick cook type) and Wheat Malt at about 10% each.

16g/l is fairly high, so be sure you don't get hop creep or else by the time it's ready to drink the flavour and aroma have subsided. Also, give serious thought to going with such a big hop bill if it's your first time, as you will make mistakes and you may want to trial run the co2 set up with a slightly lighter hop bill.

Also, Vic Secret is a great hop, and Citra is a no brainer. I would suggest trying a heavily hopped Mosaic beer first, if you have not had it. I get a distinct cat urine from it, which some do and some don't. Some people froth over mosaic and some really don't like it. Just a thought before you drop 100g of it in.

London Ale III is a smart choice. Great yeast for it.


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## Schikitar (16/10/20)

Looks pretty good to me! 

I brewed a NEIPA a couple weeks ago but it's still in the cube waiting for my fermenter to get freed up. Malt bill looks fine to me, I don't think there is anything wrong with splitting the base malt with some pilsner malt, I did that myself. I'd like to use oat malt next time instead of flaked oats, the recirc and sparge was not great! Hop choice looks pretty decent too, Vic Secret is pretty good, I used cascade, citra, mosaic and simcoe in mine (I couldn't get my hands on the hops I actually wanted to use unfortunately). London Ale III is meant to be great, it's on my list to try, I'm going to be pitching mine with Verdant IPA to see what all the fuss is about..

Hope it turns out great!


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## Ferg (16/10/20)

Looks good. I think the malt bill is similar to the one Verdant published. It will help to keep the colour really pale - similar to the MrBanks beers which I prefer. I like to use malted oats & malted wheat to help with run-off and maybe ~ 5% quick oats. Not sure what system you are brewing with but something to keep in mind. 

I prefer to fully ferment the beer without dry hops, bumping up the temp at the end to clear up diacetyl. I then soft crash to 14 degrees and dump the yeast. I dry hop at this point which generally keeps hop creep at bay. The dry hop interaction with the beer will have a big effect on your haze, flavour & aroma so don't be afraid to swirl the fermenter or burp the gas to get things agitated.

Finally plan to keep your PH at the lower end of the scale - around 5.2 in the mash. The dry hop can bump the ph up by a few points which I have found makes the beer taste a little flabby and homebrewey.

Good luck!


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## Luxo_Aussie (17/10/20)

Thanks for the feedback, really appreciate it. A few other points which have come up:

> I'll be bottling this batch (I know, bad idea for a NEIPA) but a bit of reading on reddit, reddit & AHB tells me I'm not alone. Two things which people have done to prevent this is purging the headspace with CO2 prior to capping or by filling the bottles almost to the top so that there's no headspace to worry about. This second idea has be worried though as there's plenty of material to say that limited headspace will cause overcarbonation and bottle bombs. Would this be right?

> I was planning on using hop socks to ensure that I can remove all the material before bottling - but this doesn't seem to be the norm with people just chucking them in and waiting for them to settle at the bottom. Is this a valid concern or should things just settle out in time?

> For the fermentation profile, I'm planning on 20 degrees for 5 days, racking (don't own conical) when 3-4 points from anticipated finish, then rising to 22 for three days to clear up then chilling to 14 degrees (CO2 balloon over airlock) and then adding the dry hops four days before bottling. Plans might change depending on gravity readings but this seems to be the way to go to get the beer off the hops/yeast once the bulk of the fermentation has finished. Is this a sound plan or is the risk of oxidation from racking going to outweigh the benefits from getting the beer off the hops/yeast?

I've been using London Ale III for the past few batches & I was amazed to see a Tropical Pale Ale (Galaxy/El Dorado @ 4g/L) turn out quite hazy with a rich creamy head. Great strain, might become my standard for all ales.


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## kadmium (17/10/20)

London Ale is a hazy dream. Hard to go past. Even the Verdant IPA is a mutation of London III.

No offence but racking off the gross lees prior to fermentation ends is, in my opinion, a horrible idea. Racking off the gross lees is just not needed in beer full stop.

Even though they call them "top fermenting" the bulk of the yeast colony is down the bottom and racking off it before fermentation is well and truly over is asking for trouble.

Fermentation is set on gravity not time. Hop when you hit 1.020 OG for first hop and then hop again once fermentation is over and FG is hit and leave for about 3 or 4 days. 

There is a persistent myth that leaving a beer on hops will make it grassy. That doesn't happen with pellets.

See my below profile, the tilt goes spastic when you drop hops on it so it doesn't show the true FG but I did my first hop at 1.020 and then again once it settled out (friday) and will keg it Monday. 

I go naked with hops, but do what suits you. 





You can see the gravity spike after I add the first hop, and then drop and plateu after the second.


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## Luxo_Aussie (19/10/20)

kadmium said:


> London Ale is a hazy dream. Hard to go past. Even the Verdant IPA is a mutation of London III.
> 
> No offence but racking off the gross lees prior to fermentation ends is, in my opinion, a horrible idea. Racking off the gross lees is just not needed in beer full stop.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the thoughts on the fermentation plan, the times mentioned were just estimates based on past experience but the Tilt will let me know when to make the changes. I did manage to sort out CO2 dispensing so that should limit the oxidation when hops are added/removed. I'm mentioning racking as I'm concerned that (after seeing how my last 4 batches went with 1318) that it's going to take the batch 14-21 days to completely finish up. But I think you're right about racking in this case - while throwing in hops should be fine, this action is a bit too much movement so will find a way to avoid it.

Anyone know about the bottling techniques of leaving little to no headspace?


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## yankinoz (20/10/20)

If for any reason you'd rather not keep using many different hops in small amounts, you could simplify a bit and I doubt you'd notice a difference. Magnum provides exceptionally smooth bittering, but so does Mosaic, which you're using at other stages. I wonder how well Vic Secret's flavour and aroma will hold up against Mosaic and Citra. Galaxy and Sabro do.

There have been controlled experiments on whirpools/hop stands that indicate extraction of flavour and aroma from pellets continues well past 15 minutes, say, to 60 or 80 minutes.

I use hops sacks for hop stands in NEIPAs. Typically, I add them at >80C and don't boil the sacks first, but at 75 C. you probably should.


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## Luxo_Aussie (26/10/20)

Brewed this on Friday, 60 hours later it's showing as 1.014 after starting at 1.060 & fermenting at 21 degrees. Added the biotransformation hops after 24 hours and will add my other dry hops probably tomorrow (purging headspace with CO2) once fermentation slows down a bit more rather than waiting for fermentation to fully finish. Once all that is done however, it is better to wait for things to settle/clean up for a further week or just bottle?


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## philrob (21/11/20)

Bump -Test


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## Luxo_Aussie (23/11/20)

This one's been bottled for 3 weeks - it's turned out fantastic. 

Took plenty of precautions with oxidation whilst dry hopping / bottling and looks like it was worth it. Ended up bottling half with zero headspace and half with headspace purged with CO2 - both are still fine for the moment but I'm keen to see how they compare at the 6-8 week stage. Few minor issues, there's a fair amount of yeast in every bottle as I didn't rack or cold crash before bottling & it finished horrendously low (1.004 after starting at 1.060) despite mashing in at 65 and holding it at 68 for 55 minutes - this has made it a bit dryer with less than great head retention. No idea how 93% attenuation is possible with this mash schedule plus Wyeast 1318....


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## Klosey (23/11/20)

kadmium said:


> London Ale is a hazy dream. Hard to go past. Even the Verdant IPA is a mutation of London III.
> 
> No offence but racking off the gross lees prior to fermentation ends is, in my opinion, a horrible idea. Racking off the gross lees is just not needed in beer full stop.
> 
> ...


Good post Kadmium


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## kadmium (23/11/20)

Klosey said:


> Good post Kadmium


Sometimes I drop a pearl. Usually just crap hahaha. Thanks mate. 

Here's my Hazy with Bru-1, Galaxy and Citrate. 3 weeks in the keg.


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## Klosey (23/11/20)

kadmium said:


> Sometimes I drop a pearl. Usually just crap hahaha. Thanks mate.
> 
> Here's my Hazy with Bru-1, Galaxy and Citrate. 3 weeks in the keg.


Love the glass!


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## Luxo_Aussie (4/2/21)

Final Update : Tasted this one at 90 days in the bottle today, not as good as it was a few weeks ago but still stunning. I also did a side-by-side for a bottle which was filled to the top and the other bottle with the regular headspace and there was no difference - not sure if this was thanks to the oxygen scavenging bottlte caps, or if the bottles were stored in a cellar at 8-12 degrees or otherwise. In summary, you can bottle a NEIPA & you can keep it for a few months before drinking.


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## kadmium (7/2/21)

Cheers for following up!


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