# Flanders Red



## kook (6/2/07)

Well, I've got a pack of Roselare blend that I really want to use. Hoping to brew it the weekend 3rd/4th March.

At the moment, the plan is to use a recipe _roughly_ based on the one Jamil supplied in his Flanders Red podcast.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 21.00 L 
Boil Size: 30.99 L
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 13.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 10.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amount Item
1.60 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM) 32.5 %
1.60 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) 32.5 %
1.00 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) 20.3 %
0.18 kg Caraamber (Weyermann) (36.0 SRM) 3.7 %
0.18 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (178.0 SRM) 3.7 %
0.18 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63.0 SRM) 3.7 %
0.18 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (1.8 SRM) 3.7 %
20.0 g Tettnang 05 [4.10%] (60 min) 10.1 IBU
0.50 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min)
1 Pkgs Roselare Belgian Blend (Wyeast Labs #3763)

Plan is to do a single infusion mash at 69 degrees for 90 minutes, then batch sparge. Boil for 90, starting hop additions at 60.

I'm still undecided about the fermentation schedule though. I emailed WYeast and they recommend using the Roselare in the primary, which is something I'm trying to avoid. I want this brew to make contact with as little of my equipment as possible.

At the moment I can see a few options:
Pitch US-05 in Primary (Plastic) at 18deg (Fridge) until reached 70-75% attenuation. Rack to glass, pitch Roselare and store till ready (6-18 months).
Pitch Roselare in Primary (Bucket) at 18deg (Fridge) until reached 70-75% attenuation. Rack to glass, store till ready (6-18 months). Only use that bucket infuture for grain.
Pitch Roselare in Glass, store till ready (6-18 months).
Has anyone had any experience with this and able to give any tips? 

I'm planning to store this in a storeroom at my place which is reasonably cool. Didn't seem to exceed mid-high 20's during the 35+ degree heat the last few weeks, so I figure once it cools down it should stay low-mid 20's. I realise this is not optimal, but I don't want to tie up a fridge forever  If it's still going in Oct/Nov, I'll move it to a fridge again.

Hopefully it'll finish around that time anyway, the start of cherry season! If so, I intend to rack off about 5 litres for bottling then pitch 300g/L of cherries for another 3-6 months into it.


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## warrenlw63 (6/2/07)

kook said:


> Well, I've got a pack of Roselare blend that I really want to use. Hoping to brew it the weekend 3rd/4th March.
> 
> At the moment, the plan is to use a recipe _roughly_ based on the one Jamil supplied in his Flanders Red podcast.
> 
> ...




Kook I've got a pack of Rosalare as well and plan a very similar thing. Probably Jamil's recipe or the one from Wildbrews.

I was contemplating the 68-69 degree mash and maybe fermenting with an unattenuative yeast like Wy. 1338 or 1968 (both have pretty neutral flavours). They tend to drop bright before they finish. I was then going to rack the brew a bit on the sticky/worty side to a plastic cube and add the Rosalare and leave it to it's devices for 12 months or more.

Same concerns. Not too keen on having the Rosalare in contact with my glass carboys or anything else.

Good luck with the brew. Should be a beauty.  

Warren -


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## kook (6/2/07)

I don't mind having it in glass. It seems like a better option over a long time as it is easy to tell when the pellicle is dropping off. Also means you can take photos of it  

I figure I can just soak the glass after in caustic or similar. Discard the stopper (or keep for future funk beers). Only other things will be racking hose & bottling bucket (cheap to replace) and possibly an autosiphon (also not too expensive).

WY1968 is an interesting idea, I've got a sample I could use for it too. It would make sense to use something more flocculant than US-05 for primary. Maybe even 3522?


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## Asher (6/2/07)

I did some lactic infected brews in plastic fermenters that went on to live long and happy lives fermenting un-infected beers afterwards... Just gave then a good bleach soaking.

Anyway Kook, 
- Make sure you brew on the 3rd... 4th is the Juncthouse Brewday
- The two fermenters have been set asside for sour brewing now I have my new fermenter up and running.
- You can borrow them if you like. But I'd definitely like to see you red primary fermented on the Roselare
- Want to double the batch size and give me 20l? did I mention I have two 30l fermenters already 

Asher for now


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## kook (6/2/07)

Been doing more reading and it seems that a lot of the people who've played with this in the US (including Jamil) just used plastic. Maybe I should save myself the cash of buying a glass carboy and just use an existing plastic (i've got a couple spare).

Asher, I'm fine with doing a double batch of it if you like. 

My only concern then though is the yeast. I'd planned on just using the smack pack as-is. I should probably make a starter for it in that case if we're going to split it in 2x20L. I wonder how the other organisms build in a starter? :unsure: I guess there would be enough regardless for them to build up again after the majority of the fermentation is complete?


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## Asher (6/2/07)

Yep - thought about that too.
Better to be safe and pitch the whole thing onto 22l
I'll give my own one a crack soon.

My Kriek Plambic is sitting on cherries in a polycarbonate water container at the moment... Need to buy a big 200ml syringe so I can draw off a sample ....


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## ausdb (6/2/07)

kook said:


> My only concern then though is the yeast. I'd planned on just using the smack pack as-is. I should probably make a starter for it in that case if we're going to split it in 2x20L. I wonder how the other organisms build in a starter? :unsure: I guess there would be enough regardless for them to build up again after the majority of the fermentation is complete?





Asher said:


> Yep - thought about that too.
> Better to be safe and pitch the whole thing onto 22l
> I'll give my own one a crack soon.



I happen to have two old packs of roeslare in the fridge for some Flemish Red experiments (one day), do I see an inaugural brewday at Kooks place coming up? From what I have read about Roeslare is that when you repitch or build too much of a starter with it the balance of bugs changes and so does the flavour profile and that is one of the reasons it was discontinued. Happy to join the experiment.

PS I was going to ferment in the $10 white buckets from Supercheap.


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## kook (6/2/07)

I'd still like to brew this as soon as possible (3rd March), in order to start the aging as summer starts to end. I don't think it'd be worth having two brew days on the same weekend, unless anyone disagrees?

Regardless, if you're willing to throw in some extra roselare, I'm happy to brew a 63-66L batch and split it three ways.


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## Chad (20/5/08)

I'm looking at doing a Flanders in the next month or two, and was curious, if I pitch into the primary with Roeselare and then rack into secondary, is there enough of the original pitch transfered into secondary to do it's thing for the next 12 months?

And when does the pellicle form, during primary or some time in secondary?


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## Stuster (20/5/08)

I'd say you'd be fine doing it that way. There should still be plenty of bugs in there when you transfer. I did it the other way and pitched the Roeselare into the secondary after pitching some US-05 in the primary. But a lot of the US brewers have done what you're intending and it seemed to work out fine. 

I just bottled it last week actually, there was a bit of sourness and a fair whack of brett character. I could have left it longer, but I was concerned about it getting too much oxidation being in a cube for so long. It can still mature in the bottle anyway I guess. Since I did it in plastic (and stored it under a friends house over the summer) I didn't get to see the pellicle  but as I understand it, that should form in secondary.

I racked 5L of it onto some raspberries to see how that comes out. Might have to leave it for a few months on that now since it's winter. It's certainly a long-term project. :angry:


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## Chad (20/5/08)

Just doing a bit of a search online for Wyeast Roselare and so far can't find anyone who sells it. Do they still make it?

Has anyone tried the oak stopper in the glass carboy trick yet? How did it go, and does the stopper contain enough bugs from the previous batch to put into a new batch without needing to pitch a fresh packet?


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## newguy (20/5/08)

Bottom of this page. Oak, even a small amount, is enough to sour a batch if it hasn't been sanitised somehow. When you consider the long maturation time for this kind of beer, even a small innoculation of bacteria will do.


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## Asher (20/5/08)

Roselare is a current VSS. Most Wyeast stockists worth their salt should have it ATM


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## ausdb (17/6/08)

Just waking this thread from dormancy! I was part of kooks Flanders Red experiment last year and over the weekend decided to sample what had been going on in my bucket of bugs which has been forloronly aging in my shed for the last year or so. My experiment has so far has consisted of pitching Roeslare directly into primary (a pail fermenter) and then forgetting about it (pretty standard procedure for me). When I lifted the lid I was greeted with a nice goopy pellicle of sorts, and the wine thief sample was reasonably cloudy but with a nice lactic character and the majority of the brett flavours gone from the last time I remembered sampling it, the colour also seemed to be pretty pale and washed out which is what I had remembered from previous samples as well.

Later that day I had a crazy idea to make some beef carbonnade and decided some sour beer woud be in order so drew off a sample from the tap at the bottom of the fermenter and was pretty amazed, I don't know what I picked up with the wine thief earlier as what came out of the tap was crystal clear. I took some photo's and it was hard to get the colour right with the camera flash but it has in reality turned out a beautiful reddish/amber colour.





Flavour wise it seems a bit one dimensional, lactic I think tends to dominate over most other flavours but it is strangely moreish.

My plan now is to bottle some of the batch and then try a solera experiment by adding a belgian dark strong ale to it that never really got all the way down in gravity and was a bit sweet and underbittered, with a bit of luck it might head towards Oud Bruin territory. Has anyone had experience with bottle conditioning beers that have aged for this long with non saccaromyces strains in them? I am not sure whether to add some neutral yeast when I bottle or to just wait and see what happens with it as is. I also hope to transfer the experiment from the pail to a Better bottle and then try the "$8 home brew barrel" setup, but instead of a chairleg I will try and get hold of an old wine barrel stave.
http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/200...rew-barrel.html


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## Asher (17/6/08)

Junctyard Flanders Red Update:

My portion of Kooks batch was fermented in the primary with an ale yeast and the Wyeast Roselare blend. This was then racked into polycarbonate and placed in the pLambic Jcave for 12 months. Mine too dropped clear and developed a very thin pellicle.

A few months ago I Also had a taste:- it and it had lost some of the dirty brett character and had begun to show some nicer acidity. It's still much more comparable in flavour, body and strength to a Rodenbach Classic than a Grand Cru though.

I'm not expecting too much more to happen flavour wise as the neutral ale yeast I pitched probably pulled the sugary carpet out from under the Roselare. So I decided to bottle the lot up into champaign bottles last month and begin consumption. This will give me a better chance to document and understand what's happening to the beer over the next couple of years. 

I added a small amount of dextrose but no new yeast to the beer. I also bottled a few in PET to keep an eye on condition.

So no doubt you'll see them beginning to appear at upcoming AHB brewdays and the like.


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## Guest Lurker (17/6/08)

You bring any of that toxic stuff to my place and I'll have you evicted.


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## warrenlw63 (17/6/08)

I may be making one of these myself by necessity rather than by good management.

Got 45 litres of Irish Red. Stuck fast on 1.040 from 1.054 (bad batch of Wyeast 1275) and a puffed up pack of Roselare sitting around.

I might rack 23 litres of this to a glass carboy and just let the Roselare have its way with it. I'm picking a mild infection (smoky phenols) manifesting itself with the Thames Valley. Really weird stuff but even pitching another starter has failed to "restart" it. <_< 

This could prove to be salvaging at its finest. :icon_cheers: 

Does anybody think that adding the Roselare to a mildly infected beer is going to affect the final product?

Warren -


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## ausdb (17/6/08)

I guess it depends on what is infected with and how quickly the preferable bugs can take over as roeslare is basically infecting the beer anyway just with a batch of organisms that generally give a satisfactory outcome flavourwise.


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## Muggus (17/6/08)

Interesting to see this thread dug up, because I recently (mistakenly) created a beer that turned out to be very similar to Rodenbach original.

What I did was blend an Imperial stout and a English style golden ale at a ratio of 4L to 11L in a fermenter and let it sit for a month.
Might be important to note that the Imperial Stout in question was resting on 2 different batches of American oak chips, in its Primary (1 month) and Secondardary (3 months).

Considering I went to the trouble of boiling up the chips in water for 20 minutes before hand, and didn't add an additional yeasts or bacteria...is it possible that such a concoction would create a 'red ale'. Or have I just got 15L of infected brew bottled?


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## randyrob (17/6/08)

i'm salavating guys, can't wait to try a sample when the time comes.

kook drew me off a sample of one of his flanders beers at his brewday and it was tasting fantastic.

i checked my pLambic this morning and it had like horizontal lightning bolt's running across the top of it

or as a better discription kind of like an aerial view of antartica with broken up icebergs

vote for pedro!

Rob.


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## Stuster (17/6/08)

Not sure about that, Muggus. Sounds like it's more likely to be just infected to me. Time will tell I guess.

ausdb, as I you can see from a few posts up I bottled mine a month ago. I tried one a couple of weeks ago (patience was never my strong point  ) and it was already pretty much carbed up. From my subsequent squeezes of a PET tester bottle, it's really fully carbed up by now. Just have to hope it doesn't keep munching until there are bombs. I did prime on the light side so hoping it's ok.

The taste was still pretty dominated by the brett at the moment. Beautiful clear red. Smells fairly urinal based. Nice mix of malts and funk in flavour, lightish body with a bit of acid. Hoping that'll develop a bit more with time.

The 5L on the raspberries hasn't developed another pellicle but I'm going to leave it for a couple more months and then have a taste of it and probably bottle it up. Not sure if I'll add any more yeast, but judging from how quickly this one carbed up, it won't be necessary.


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## warrenlw63 (18/6/08)

To keep this thread motoring along. I've made up my mind and decided to salvage my 45 litres of Irish Red stuck at 1.040 from 1.054 by pitching an 18 month old pack of Roselare blend.  

Couple of questions to the blokes already kicking goals here.

Firstly will the Roselare pack still be viable?

Secondly I've got 45 litres sitting in a plastic fermenter, my plan is either to.

1) Rack to one glass carboy and just add the smack pack
2) Make a starter with said Roselare and add it to the whole 45 litres divided by 2 glass carboys.

Is it OK to make a starter with Roselare, will it effect the ratio of bugs?

Funny how you can turn tragedy into something good. I'm quite pumped about this. :beer: 

Warren -


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## THE DRUNK ARAB (18/6/08)

Stuster said:


> Not sure about that, Muggus. Sounds like it's more likely to be just infected to me. Time will tell I guess.
> 
> ausdb, as I you can see from a few posts up I bottled mine a month ago. I tried one a couple of weeks ago (patience was never my strong point  ) and it was already pretty much carbed up. From my subsequent squeezes of a PET tester bottle, it's really fully carbed up by now. Just have to hope it doesn't keep munching until there are bombs. I did prime on the light side so hoping it's ok.
> 
> ...



OMG Stuster, that sounds soooooo appealing :icon_vomit: 

How does a Flanders Red differ from an Oud Bruin and has anyone had any experience with brewing said style of beer?

C&B
TDA


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## Stuster (18/6/08)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> OMG Stuster, that sounds soooooo appealing :icon_vomit:



 



Where is Trough Lolly these days anyway?


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## warrenlw63 (18/6/08)

THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> OMG Stuster, that sounds soooooo appealing :icon_vomit:
> 
> How does a Flanders Red differ from an Oud Bruin and has anyone had any experience with brewing said style of beer?
> 
> ...



Hey Mr. Arab

Flanders Red is well... Red with Brett and lacto. Very winey

Oud Bruin is usually stronger, brown, maltier with Brett and lacto. Very Porty/Sherry like and sour.

If you ever come across Liefman's Goudenband prepare to have your mind blown. :wub: 

Rodenbach and particularly Rodenbach Grand Cru are only half a :wub: behind.

Warren -


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## ausdb (18/6/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> Firstly will the Roselare pack still be viable?
> 
> Secondly I've got 45 litres sitting in a plastic fermenter, my plan is either to.
> 1) Rack to one glass carboy and just add the smack pack
> ...


From the reading I did I would not make a starter as it can affect the ratio of bugs and once they are going then they will multiply anyway, starter size is apparently less important for lambic and non saccharomyces ferments. Temp control does have a bearing on how much lactic is produced higher temp = more acidic. Two of the Roeslare packs used in our experiment were about 18 months old and whilst I cant recall them really swelling up they both got going and have made sour beers ok. Personal thoughts only I will never be using the pail I fermented in for a non funky beer again, if you want to save the fermenter then rack to your carboys and split the pack. There is a massive thread about Flanders red and Roeslare on brewboard its about 33 pages from memory so there is pletny of good info there. My beer aged in a fermenting fridge for about 6 months at around 20-21C and then spent the rest of the time just sitting in my shed, which gets very cold in winter and very hot in summer so not sure what the average temp was.



THE DRUNK ARAB said:


> How does a Flanders Red differ from an Oud Bruin and has anyone had any experience with brewing said style of beer?


All I know is that Oud Bruin is meant to be a lot more maltier and not as sour as Flanders red (whilst still being sour if you know what I mean) I would not have classed Rodenbach Grand Cru as an Oud Bruin myself based on the sample I tried that was intensely sour like balsamic vinegar.


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## warrenlw63 (19/6/08)

Thanks Ausdb

Just to be safe though I've made a very small 250ml starter just to check the yeast's viability. Its been sitting (puffed up/smacked) in my fridge for at least 9 months. Took it out 2 days ago and it seemed to swell further which I guess is a good sign.

Man its one stinky strain. Smelled like a dunny at an Indian Restaurant. I guess that can be seen as normal though.  

I've added it to a capped PET bottle. As soon as there's some sign of gassing I'll add it to the two carboys.

I plan to keep one bunged and airlocked as normal and to maybe do the toasted 3/8 oak dowel on the other and compare and/or blend the results.

Warren -


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## kook (20/6/08)

My 1/3 of this batch is coming along well. Insight and I tasted it back in April, and it's quite complex, but still a little lacking in tartness. I've halved my batch into two containers of roughly 12 litres. In April we added 2.5kg of belgian dark cherries to the container, and the pellicle has now redeveloped and taken over on top of the cherries. It's more spider-web like this time, really quite interesting to look at. I plan on bottling in a couple months time.

When I get around to it i'll take some more pics, include some of the plambics I've got going. I've got another two packs of roselare in the fridge, along with pedio and lacto cultures. More sour stuff will be on the way


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## warrenlw63 (27/6/08)

Well the bugs have gone into mine. <_< 

After racking the Irish Red to do this last week. Fermentation with Wyeast 1275 recommenced with furious krausen and loads of airlock activity so I thought give it a second chance.

Go out to check the glass carboys today and take a gravity reading and its 1.030 !! WTF? All that piss and wind and just another 10 point drop!

Bugs are firing and dumped in the carboys. We'll see what happens. I figure I'm on a hiding to nothing as it is.

I'll report back in a few months. 

Warren -


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## brendanos (27/6/08)

A couple of these are next in line for me, i just need to get my blend started and split for multiple uses. The various recipes in wild brews should be a good starting point. Haven't been able to buy Rodenbach in Perth for far too long!


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## warrenlw63 (13/9/08)

Quick update.

3 months after pitching the Roeselare starter the funk looks like it's just starting to form. A few days of creeping up into the 20's seems to have helped greatly. 

I'm contemplating doing the Raje Apte method of a toasted dowel in the bung (don't be rude B) ) for one of the carboys. I feel I have nothing to lose here as it's only an experiment.

Warren -


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## warrenlw63 (20/2/09)

Just reviving this thread. A couple of questions if that's OK.  

My bugs have been in the carboys around 8 months now. How long generally speaking do you blokes leave yours for?

Also priming rates. Do you prime low or high? My guess would be low due to the unpredictable nature of Brett? I'm also planning on adding a slurry of fresh yeast too.

Also some tasting notes chaps. Any of these experiments been worthwhile?  

Thanks in advance.

Warren -


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## Ronin (20/2/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Just reviving this thread. A couple of questions if that's OK.
> 
> My bugs have been in the carboys around 8 months now. How long generally speaking do you blokes leave yours for?
> 
> ...



I'm interested in priming rates too, mines getting onto 8 months or so also. 

I borrowed (  ) a sterile serology pipette from work and had a taste out of the carboy about a month ago now. It was quite good, a little acidic with some of the fruity notes coming through. I'm assuming the heat wave we had recently will have helped the acidity along a little bit, might be time for another tasting.

I'm considering brewing a second batch, blending the two and then bottling without priming. Reading as much as I can about blending before I make the decision though. And collecting as many champagne bottles as I can.

James


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## warrenlw63 (20/2/09)

Hey James believe it or not I've not even sampled mine because it's in a glass carboy and I don't posses a wine thief. :lol: I might grab one in a week or so and see how it's faring.

I've got two carboys full of the stuff. Might bottle one and leave the other at my leisure. Might even rack it onto some fruit or similar.

How OTT is your acidity? I wouldn't mind a good bite in mine.

Warren -


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## therook (20/2/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey James believe it or not I've not even sampled mine because it's in a glass carboy and I don't posses a wine thief. :lol: I might grab one in a week or so and see how it's faring.
> 
> I've got two carboys full of the stuff. Might bottle one and leave the other at my leisure. Might even rack it onto some fruit or similar.
> 
> ...



and NO Wazza i will not be your Guinea Pig :lol: 

Rook


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## Ronin (20/2/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey James believe it or not I've not even sampled mine because it's in a glass carboy and I don't posses a wine thief. :lol: I might grab one in a week or so and see how it's faring.
> 
> I've got two carboys full of the stuff. Might bottle one and leave the other at my leisure. Might even rack it onto some fruit or similar.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't have called it over the top at all, it was quite subdued really, just becoming noticeable. I'm expecting the lactobacillus to go nuts after the week of 40+ weather we had recently so as I said I think another tasting is in order.

I'll see if I can borrow another pipette this weekend and have another taste. Will report back soon.


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## warrenlw63 (20/2/09)

therook said:


> and NO Wazza i will not be your Guinea Pig :lol:
> 
> Rook



Mate it'll be so nice you'll be banging on the Craphaus garage door cap in hand. Then I guess you owe me one after passing you off with the mutant Thames Valley yeast  




Ronin said:


> I wouldn't have called it over the top at all, it was quite subdued really, just becoming noticeable. I'm expecting the lactobacillus to go nuts after the week of 40+ weather we had recently so as I said I think another tasting is in order.



Yeah I might try and get my mitts on a wine thief I think. I'd be very interested to see what's going on. 8 Months on and there's still some quite consistent airlock activity. Thing being I pitched the bugs when the SG was at 1.040 so I guess there's a bit of eating to be done.

Warren -


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## Ronin (20/2/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Yeah I might try and get my mitts on a wine thief I think. I'd be very interested to see what's going on. 8 Months on and there's still some quite consistent airlock activity. Thing being I pitched the bugs when the SG was at 1.040 so I guess there's a bit of eating to be done.
> 
> Warren -



I'm amazed every time I hear the airlock release also, I keep thinking it has to be done but then...

I'd be interested in what gravity it's down to also.


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## warrenlw63 (20/2/09)

If it's not below 1.010 that noise you hear from Geelong will be me swearing from Pascoe Vale. :lol: 

Warren -


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## goatherder (20/2/09)

I'm not 100% sure of all the answers, but I'll have a guess based on what I've done.

I bottled my first one at 13 months. Based on the few tastes along the way, there probably wasn't any huge changes happening beyond 6 months. I've heard people mention the pellicle dropping as being a good time to bottle. I never saw that happen with mine.

As for priming, prime for the carbonation you want, just like a normal beer. Yes, Brett can be unpredictable but you've left him alone with the beer for 8 months, some of those being quite warm. Any dextrins that are going to be chewed by the Brett are probably already gone. Definitely add fresh yeast with the priming sugar - I tried a bottle without and it was all fail.

As for tasting notes, I'm down to my last 8 or 10 bottles. The beer is wonderful, just a slight sourness, some mellow brett character and a some sour cherry fruit flavours. It's light, dry and refreshing, perfect for a hot day. I've shared it with beer geeks and luddites alike, with a mostly positive response. I scored a 2nd place in the Belgian class with it at the Hag comp last year. I won't talk about the NSW comp as I'm still a little cranky about that one.

As for gravity, it was:

OG: 1.056
After primary (6 days) : 1.014 - pitched Roselare
after 6 weeks in secondary: 1.012
after 5 months in seconday: 1.007
after almost 13 months in secondary: 1.007 - bottled






warrenlw63 said:


> Just reviving this thread. A couple of questions if that's OK.
> 
> My bugs have been in the carboys around 8 months now. How long generally speaking do you blokes leave yours for?
> 
> ...


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## warrenlw63 (21/2/09)

Many thanks goat. That helps a lot.  

After 9 months I bought a turkey baster and pulled a sample from both carboys. Flavour is close to identical in both with one being a little more sour/complex. This could be due to that carboy having more headspace.

Aroma is balsamic vinegar (though not OTT) a little bit smokey, there's also a tiny bit of barnyard. Flavour is dry/winey & sour. Just a hint of smokey/musk in the finish from what I'd assume to be the Northdown hops I used. Remember this started life as a failed Irish Red.

Colour is lovely but probably visually darker than the photos. Thought I'd post them up anyway.

Might bottle it in the next month or two. Will be a nice, complex quaffer.

Warren -


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## Chad (21/2/09)

I've got a while to go yet, but this is how mine's going. You can see the stats on the sticker when I racked it into this carboy.
I'm quite disappointed that I didn't get a nice big pellicle. What you see is as good as it has gotten.



I will be brewing another later in the year, but aging it in a plastic carboy for a much short amount of time as it should sour quicker, and then blend the two together in a 50L oak barrel.
I really should go get me a turkey baster to sample how this one is going.


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## warrenlw63 (21/2/09)

Hey Chad I contemplated the Raj Apted toasted oak dowel also. However I got a bit concerned about bugs dribbling out into the brewery via the dowel.  

Don't sweat on the pellicle mine never really happened either. It got more white dotty/waxy stuff than anything. That vanished then reappeared when the 40+ degree heatwaves hit down here.

To be honest you'll probably find the flavours more subdued than you're hoping for (as I did) that being said it certainly seems to make for a dry and drinkable beer. I was sort of hoping for more of that full on sour Balsamic Vinegar flavour you get in Rodenbach Grand Cru. 

Warren -


----------



## Chad (21/2/09)

I actually didn't have the dowel in there at first. I had an airlock only but nothing was happening. So I repitched some new yeast, and put the dowel in, and that's when something finally happened.
The carboy is nowhere near the brewery.


----------



## warrenlw63 (14/4/09)

Just an update because this thread warrants it. I tested mine on the weekend and the balsamic sourness is really starting to get a toehold.  There's some very nice Rodenbach-like flavours starting to happen with a few complex toasty notes as well.

I've racked it into some cubes with an oak stave broken up and distributed between the two. The stave was soaked for a month in some wine and then steamed before adding. I'll give it a test for "oakiness" in a few weeks and then bottle with some fresh yeast.

I'm just hoping it maintains it's current flavour profile and doesn't sour too much more. I'd have it around just right now. Not sure how much the lactic character will progress?? :unsure: 

Here's a couple of pics. A very gunky looking carboy and a glass of the goods with some pocket beer engine assistance. :lol:

Warren -


----------



## Stuster (14/4/09)

That looks just great, Warren. And the beer too.  

How old is that batch now?

The small part of my first batch that I racked on to raspberries for 10 months was bottled a few weeks back and tastes great. Better than the main batch which has aged the same time in bottles. It's hard to pick the raspberries out from the overall fruit flavours but somehow it's made the batch that much more delicious. Will take a picture when I drink the next one (only have ten more stubbies so I'm trying to be careful with them).

Second batch has a thin pellicle and smells the part. Will try to leave off bottling this one as long as possible.


----------



## warrenlw63 (14/4/09)

Stuster said:


> That looks just great, Warren. And the beer too.
> 
> How old is that batch now?
> 
> ...



Thanks Stu Raspberries sound quite tempting if not a little butch! :lol: I'll keep my eyes open for a pic. .

Mine is about 10 months old now. The part I can't figure is how long to leave it for? Was still basically sitting on the primary yeast and was worried about off-flavours as a consequence. There are in fact none. From a personal standpoint I reckon the bugs ate away at the primary yeast and left those lovely toasty flavours (a bit like expensive champagne).

I'll probably give it a couple of months on the oak to make it an even year and bottle. I'll try (read; with all my will-power) to leave the bottles for around 6 months before sampling. That will give the whole batch the standard 18 months from pitching to drinking. To be honest I could have kegged it, gassed it and quite happily had at it right away. 

I actually contemplated adding fruit to half the batch but instead cubed it. It fell short for volume (big headspace) so I added the remaining portion of a dubbel I was not happy with and then thought "solera" and poured in 10 bottles of an 9 year old barley wine that was getting long in the tooth. I'm just going to leave this cube to the beer gods and see what happens. 

Warren -


----------



## kook (14/4/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Mine is about 10 months old now. The part I can't figure is how long to leave it for? Was still basically sitting on the primary yeast and was worried about off-flavours as a consequence. There are in fact none. From a personal standpoint I reckon the bugs ate away at the primary yeast and left those lovely toasty flavours (a bit like expensive champagne).



From my understanding, the FRA brewers tend to ferment in stainless for primary, then rack to the wood for secondary.

I've been fermenting in primary with US05, then racking to secondary and adding the roselare pack.

The batch I bottled yesterday was a blend of 25 month old (the batch mentioned in the OP) and 19 month old (2.2:1). Both still had quite a thick pellicle on them. Will post pics once it's in the glass.

One of my plambic batches has about an inch of pellicle at the moment! It's all bubbly and manky


----------



## warrenlw63 (14/4/09)

kook said:


> From my understanding, the FRA brewers tend to ferment in stainless for primary, then rack to the wood for secondary.
> 
> I've been fermenting in primary with US05, then racking to secondary and adding the roselare pack.
> 
> ...



:lol: I guess then kook that mine is living proof that you can (sometimes) get away with incorrect technique. There was quite a bit of grey yeasty trub on the bottom of the carboys. No sign of autolysis whatsoever. Either that or the bugs eat and excrete it into something nicer.  

I was never bothered because the beer was originally a failed Irish Red Ale that stopped dead at 1.040 due to some weird outcome with the original Thames Valley yeast. So I treated the whole thing with the mentalilty that I had nothing to lose.

Hey that blend sounds awesome. Can you PM me when you post the pic! One thing I've noticed is that given time the colours change in weird and wonderful ways. Mine's almost a fine ruby-red.  

Now I have my carboys back my next project is a _P_-Lambic to get rid of my 9 year old NZ Goldings hop flowers.

Warren -


----------



## Quintrex (14/4/09)

Hmm with all this talk of sour beers, i wonder if there is any chance of an australia wide sour beer case swap?
It'd be awesome to taste some of these fine creations.

Thoughts?

Q


----------



## warrenlw63 (14/4/09)

I'm down. :beer: 

Even a small state only swap would be highly interesting.

Warren -


----------



## neonmeate (3/5/09)

LET'S DO THIS SWAP fellers

i've got a kriek - (4kg of sour cherries with oud bruin base)
and the original oud bruin ((old) liefmans goudenband recipe, made with 9097)
and a dryhopped 9%abv saison lambicised with cantillon and cuvee rene dregs

but they might not be all ready for a while... could we line something up for september or so?


----------



## Stuster (3/5/09)

I'm in.


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## kook (3/5/09)

I'm in, though the size of the swap may have to be limited, I'm presuming everyone doesn't have cases of the stuff lying around? 

I've got the following funky stuff in bottles:

Amber Ale (bottled with Orval yeast)
Brett L. Enkel/Single
Brett L. Blonde
Berliner Weisse
Dark Funk
Flanders Red
Druivenbier (Dark Funk with Merlot must)

I also have some Flanders Kriek - but it's unfortunately not really suitable for swapping. I didn't filter in any way when bottling, so quite a lot of cherry particulate has ended up in the bottles. It doesn't make for the most visually appealing beer.


----------



## Quintrex (3/5/09)

Awesome!!!!!!!!!!

I can submit a sour cherry flanders red
May also have a B. Claussenii saison ready by then as well(will probably need further aging).
Voota might have a lambic ready not sure with or without fruit at this stage but i'm sure he'd be in.

How do you wanna do the swap
I'm guessing auspost winepacks are most economical. Potentially all entries could be sent to one delegate in each city.

Cheers
Q

I guess we should start a new thread


----------



## warrenlw63 (5/6/09)

Just pulling this one out of mothballs again. 

I'm planning to bottle mine this long weekend because I reckon it's tasting great.

Question if I may? Do the folks with acid ale bottling experience use any old ale yeast for re-yeasting or do I need something acid-tolerant like a red wine yeast?

I have a sachet of US-05 and thought that would be good enough for the job?

TIA

Warren -


----------



## bconnery (5/6/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Just pulling this one out of mothballs again.
> 
> I'm planning to bottle mine this long weekend because I reckon it's tasting great.
> 
> ...


This question, plus another technique. Is is just a case of bulk priming technique, with both sugar and some yeast mixed up first?
I know the answer is on here somewhere but much easier to piggyback on this question


----------



## warrenlw63 (5/6/09)

bconnery said:


> This question, plus another technique. Is is just a case of bulk priming technique, with both sugar and some yeast mixed up first?
> I know the answer is on here somewhere but much easier to piggyback on this question



Ben I'd planned to do my priming sugar in the regular manner (boiled up in 500ml of water). I was going to rehydrate the yeast in routine fashion and then just add both to the bottling bucket and rack the beer on top.

I remember reading somewhere myself (babblebelt I think) that US-05 is fine but a red wine yeast will hedge your bets due to being able to resist higher acid levels.

My gut feeling tells me that a regular ale yeast and an extended bottle-conditioning period might do the job.

Warren -


----------



## Quintrex (5/6/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Ben I'd planned to do my priming sugar in the regular manner (boiled up in 500ml of water). I was going to rehydrate the yeast in routine fashion and then just add both to the bottling bucket and rack the beer on top.
> 
> I remember reading somewhere myself (babblebelt I think) that US-05 is fine but a red wine yeast will hedge your bets due to being able to resist higher acid levels.
> 
> ...



I've read the babblebelt discussion, and I'd probably just use the us-05 for a standard strength beer. Probably save the big guns for a higher alc/acid batch.

I'll probably bottle my second batch this weekend, adding a 2nd lot of cherries has really lifted the acidity/flavour.
Can't wait.
Q


----------



## warrenlw63 (5/6/09)

Quintrex said:


> I've read the babblebelt discussion, and I'd probably just use the us-05 for a standard strength beer. Probably save the big guns for a higher alc/acid batch.
> 
> I'll probably bottle my second batch this weekend, adding a 2nd lot of cherries has really lifted the acidity/flavour.
> Can't wait.
> Q



Thanks Q!

Where are you sourcing your cherries?

Warren -


----------



## Stuster (5/6/09)

I just plonked in some slurry of some ale yeast I had in left around. From memory it was 1007 and the bottles carbed up just fine. I'm sure US-05 re-hydrated up would do the trick. Quite possibly there's some brett or other critters alive in there which would carb it up anyway. No need for a wine yeast IMO. :icon_cheers:


----------



## therook (5/6/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Thanks Q!
> 
> Where are you sourcing your cherries?
> 
> Warren -



Looking forward to tasting this Wazza

Rook :icon_cheers:


----------



## Quintrex (5/6/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Thanks Q!
> 
> Where are you sourcing your cherries?
> 
> Warren -



I drove out to silvan to the pick your own places, and managed to get there just as morello season was in full swing, brought back 6 kg at $12 a kg i think it was. A lot of places sell them frozen all year round, probably a good option as I freeze them anyway before adding them to beer.
Cheers
Q


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## drtomc (5/6/09)

While we're talking about fresh yeast at bottling, do you have to be careful if you're selecting a different strain to that used for primary fermentation? I'm thinking about the risk that a more attenuating yeast might push you in to grenade-land.

T.


----------



## Stuster (5/6/09)

In this case, pretty much anything that a yeast could consume will be long gone. If it's for a more standard ale or lager, it's certainly possible this could be an issue.


----------



## Chad (6/6/09)

Chad said:


> I've got a while to go yet, but this is how mine's going. You can see the stats on the sticker when I racked it into this carboy.
> I'm quite disappointed that I didn't get a nice big pellicle. What you see is as good as it has gotten.
> View attachment 24888
> 
> ...



An update on mine. It's progressing along a bit more now.




But it's nothing compared to my lambic. :beerbang:


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## bconnery (6/6/09)

Chad said:


> An update on mine. It's progressing along a bit more now.
> View attachment 27796
> 
> 
> ...



That's one nice looking infection there Chad...
I picked up a bunch of frozen berries on clearance from Coles so I think it's Mixed Berry for the lambic for sure


----------



## goatherder (6/6/09)

I just grabbed a random ale yeast when I bottled my FRA. I think it was something english. I cultured up a small starter - 200mls or something and added it to the bottling bucket with the sugar. The most important thing is to add at least some fresh yeast. I bottled a tester using just priming sugar without fresh yeast - 1 month passed and it was as flat as a tack.


----------



## reviled (30/8/09)

My old ales almost finished so keen to try a flanders red type beer in the cube...

Ive got two strains of brett in stock, and im wondering, will I need to buy lacto or is it possible to get it another way? Like a sour mash or something??


----------



## Stuster (30/8/09)

I'd get the Roeselare yeast from Wyeast. It was out as a special release again recently and it's still available. I've made two batches from that mix and was pretty happy with it. I kept some of the dregs in the fridge for quite some time before re-pitching it on a second batch. I think the re-pitch was better than the first batch and I'm planning on a third batch whenever I have enough time.  


Here's the info on that blend.


Wyeast 3763-PC Roeselare Ale Blend
Beer Styles: Lambics, Geuze, Fruit Lambic, Flanders Red Ale
Profile: Our blend of lambic cultures produces beer with a complex, earthy profile and a distinctive pie cherry sourness. Aging for up to 18 months is required for full flavor profile and acidity to develop. Will produce a very dry profile due to super-attenuative nature of the mixed cultures.

Alc. Tolerance 11% ABV
Flocculation variable
Attenuation 80%+ 
Temperature Range 65-85F (18-30C)


----------



## reviled (30/8/09)

Cheers Stu but I was sorta hoping I could somehow avoid buyng a smackpack seeing as I allready have two different strains of brett to use... Was thinking a sour mash might work but im not sure really what to do? Doesnt grain have lacto in it? Could I just throw some grains into the fermenter??

If its not really possible will probably just do another saccro/brett beer again...


----------



## muckanic (6/9/09)

reviled said:


> Cheers Stu but I was sorta hoping I could somehow avoid buyng a smackpack seeing as I allready have two different strains of brett to use... Was thinking a sour mash might work but im not sure really what to do? Doesnt grain have lacto in it? Could I just throw some grains into the fermenter??



I personally like lactic acid a heck of a lot more than I like acetic acid in my beer, and I've posted here before about my experiences with sour mashing. The short of it is - make up a starter from raw wheat, and perform the souring pre-ferment. That has all kind of gone out the window recently as I isolated what I think is a hop-tolerant, alcohol-tolerant lactic acid producing yeast from a commercial witbier. Given the chance, it ferments like the clappers, and this is truely a wonderful to have if you're into that sort of thing.


----------



## Chad (10/10/09)

Had another sample from the fermenter tonight. The slow nature of the ferment has really given it a nice smooth flavour. Has a little bit more to go yet, but I think it's about time I put another one down for blending in the future. I'm really happy that it hasn't developed any off or infected characters since this is the longest I have ever kept a beer in the fermenter. This has been quite a worthy experiment.


----------



## Screwtop (10/10/09)

You guys are truly Artisans. Think I need to broaden my boring brewing regime :lol:

Screwy


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## Tony (6/3/13)

Thread resurection 

Seing as i am having some time off brewing...... i might brew some beer 

Flanders Red

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 20.00 Wort Size (L): 20.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.40
Anticipated OG: 1.055 Plato: 13.55
Anticipated EBC: 27.6
Anticipated IBU: 14.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
45.5 2.00 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 7
22.7 1.00 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
11.4 0.50 kg. Weyermann Pale Wheat Germany 1.038 4
9.1 0.40 kg. Aeromatic Belgium 1.035 37
4.5 0.20 kg. Weyermann Caramunich I Germany 1.036 90
4.5 0.20 kg. Weyermann Carabohemien Germany 1.034 200
2.3 0.10 kg. Special B Belgium 1.035 310

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
24.00 g. Pacific Hallertau Whole 4.90 14.5 60 min.


Yeast
-----

3763 Roeselare


I was going to do a primary ferment with US-05, but the Roeselare pack is only just 4 weeks old, so i am thinking of just smacking and pitching it strait up.

Or is there strong evidnece to say this isnt good?

Im thinking the blend is what it is, and i do plan to keep it in a fridge at 18 deg for the first month or 2 untill it cools right down.

now to start planning the Lambic.


----------



## tazman1967 (6/3/13)

I just dumped the swollen Roeselare smack pack straight in... no starter. Fired up ok, Fermented out,


----------



## barls (6/3/13)

straight up here too.


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## raven19 (7/3/13)

+2 on pitching as is Tony.
Also be prepared for some decent krausen initially - I foolishly fermented in a demijohn which resulted in a huge mess.
I would recommend reuse the slurry too on your next brew, I reckon it gets better each generation (read similar thoughts here on older threads too).
My cherry lambic was tasting very good prior to adding the cherries a few weeks back (rosealare used).


----------



## Tony (7/3/13)

I was wanting to ferment and age all in the one vassel as i have read that the bugs like to feed on the dead yeast and any bad flavours they produce, creating complexity.

I might do it in the Carboy and ferment it slow and cool at 15 or 16 deg for the first few weeks to keep the mess down.


----------



## tiprya (7/3/13)

The roselare pack I got from CB is 7 months old - will that be alright to throw straight in?

Planning on brewing next weekend.


----------



## raven19 (8/3/13)

@tip - I would go a starter then pitch the lot after 24hours assuming there is some activity in the starter.

The saccro yeast component is pretty vigourous in my (limited but growing) experience so you shouldn't have an issue with no starter if the yeast has been stored in cool conditions.


----------



## seamad (8/3/13)

Wyeast don't recommend a starter.
You may find it gets the bugs out of wack, found out myself the hard way when I grew up a starter from some orval dregs, the acetobacter dominated from the beer, I had the starter on the stir plate for about a week with increasing steps.
I want to make a berlinner weisse as well as a flanders and the craftbrewer bw yeast is getting a bit old too. May just need some extra ale yeast as I would hazard a guess that the bugs are a lot more hardy than the yeast.


----------



## Tony (16/3/13)

Mashing my Flanders Red tomorrow.

Going to do a trubid mash as practice for the Lambics i plan soon after. This should give some residual starch for the bugs to eat to give me some good funk.

Also thinking of using carbon filtered water. Should still have all the mineral salts but near all of the chemical additives removed. I'm thinking this will help the longevity of the bugs

any thought on this?


----------



## seamad (17/3/13)

I'm no expert...I plan on doing either a cereal mash or just gelatinize the raw wheat (20%) for my flanders red and then do a step mash, if making a lambic then would do a turbid mash to supply more starches for the bugs to eat.
As far as nutrients to keep the bugs going, that would also depend on how you are going to ferment, In a lambic I would put evrything in and just leave it, that way the dead yeasties can be eaten later on, so there will be plenty for them to survive on. With the red I think i will ferment 1st with yeast in primary and then transfer to the octave and add the bugs then leave it alone. It won't be as sour or funky but a flanders red isn't as wild as a lambic.
Sounds like you're making a hybrid type of flanders red, which with your skills will no doubt be most excellent.


----------



## Tony (17/3/13)

I'm bringing it to the boil now.

What i did was a half turbid mash, colecting half the amounts recomended for a full turbid mash. The wort ran to the kettle crystal clear and tastes devine!

mashed in at 1L/kg @45 deg for 10 min
infused up to 58 deg for 5 min.
Collected half a liter of turbid mash and heated to 90 degc.
infused up to 66 deg for 30 min
Collected 2 liters of turbid mash, added to origional half liter and heated to 90 degc.
infused to 72 deg for 20 min
brought turbid wort to boil and added back into mash with 88 deg sprage water.
sparged at 88 deg.

Going to add the Roeselare pack direct to the wort in the carboy and ferment it cool at about 18 deg for the first couple weeks, to let the yeast get going and keep the bugs quiet.
Probably wont be exactly to style, but i do want it a bit sour and funky.

time will tell 

cheers


----------



## Tony (17/3/13)

Another thing i am working through im my head is this issue:

I placed some french Oak Chips in water to remove some of the stronger tanins before i use them in the brew.

The first jar full of water went a deep amber color, after a week, so i changed the water. I kept the first lot of water in a jar.

I have noticed that in the first lot of water, a white fuzzy fur has grown over all the timber fines in the bottom, and on the top of the current water that the timber sitting in, it has gone a bit mouldy.

I am thinking of either boiling the chips, or soaking them in some 90% alc i have laying around.

what to do...... what to do......


----------



## tiprya (17/3/13)

I brewed my Flanders red yesterday, and no chilled into a sanitised corny that doesn't hold pressure. I'm going to ferment in that with a blow-off fitted to the gas post.

My 7 month old pack of Roeselare was smacked on Friday night, and is now half-swollen.

Still planning on just pitching the pack without a starter - I figure this will probably favour the bugs if anything, and I'm after something reasonably funky/sour.

I imagine it will take a while to start fermentation, but it should be fine given I'm going to leave it for a year before bottling? Or should I pitch some clean yeast in with it?


----------



## tazman1967 (17/3/13)

Some pics of my Flanders Red


----------



## barls (17/3/13)

its a blend of 2 bretts, pedio, the floris yeast ie a sherry strain and one other that slips my mind atm.
it will be fine. i pitched 100 brett lambicus the other day started fine it was just over 12 months old


----------



## Adam Howard (17/3/13)

Tony said:


> Another thing i am working through im my head is this issue:
> 
> I placed some french Oak Chips in water to remove some of the stronger tanins before i use them in the brew.
> 
> ...


You can microwave them Tony. In water in a tupperware container with the lid on. Either that or steam them. 

This is my first Flanders. 






Started it a year ago. Jamil's recipe, glass carboy and 100% Roeselare. Going to bottle it in the next couple of weeks. I've brewed up another 32L of wort and I'll be dumping the bug cake from this first batch into a 34L demijohn for my next batch. Thinking I'll get a quicker turn around and have something a bit more like the Grand Cru with the second batch.


----------



## Tony (17/3/13)

Awsome!

I still need to get some silicon bungs....... i found some on line but they are in WA and postage was prohibitive


----------



## seamad (17/3/13)

Tony, read somewhere that even new oak chips boiled a couple of times maybe too oakey left in the beer that long, and that alcohol is better at removing some of the tannins. Soaking some chips in beer ( preferably dregs from a flanders red or lambic) will give less tannins and innoculate the chips, then reuse the chips in subsequent brews. Would give the fungus chips a good boil.
cheers
sean


----------



## Adam Howard (17/3/13)

Tony said:


> Awsome!
> 
> I still need to get some silicon bungs....... i found some on line but they are in WA and postage was prohibitive


This batch didn't use a silicon bung but ill be changing to silicon with all my sours from now. iBrew have them Tony, post should be cheaper from the east coast. www.ibrew.com.au


----------



## Tony (17/3/13)

Will check them out.

Thanks mate


----------



## Tony (18/3/13)

Carboy filled - Check
Swollen Roselare pack pitched - check
Sitting in fridge at 18 deg - check
Oak chips nuked and added to ferment - check
Silicon bungs on order - check
365 days to wait - check


----------



## Tony (18/3/13)

seamad said:


> Tony, read somewhere that even new oak chips boiled a couple of times maybe too oakey left in the beer that long, and that alcohol is better at removing some of the tannins. Soaking some chips in beer ( preferably dregs from a flanders red or lambic) will give less tannins and innoculate the chips, then reuse the chips in subsequent brews. Would give the fungus chips a good boil.
> cheers
> sean


missed this post........ not sure how :huh:

Anyway......... i gave them a good boil and the water they were in went like oak syrip. It smelt like wood candy....... that french oak is god stuff!

I have already added them into the brew so its too late now. A handfull of chips wouldnt be much compared to a full barrel's serface area.

After playing with the chips my fingers smelt like brandy syrip, and if thats the character thats going into the beer...... let it be 

I like it!

This is going to be one wicked flanders

I think i will call it "The Red Ned"

I have found my label image as well


----------



## Tony (19/3/13)

The Red Ned is chugging away nicely at 18 deg with a nice 1 inch head. I love how you can see the brew swirl in the glass!

My silicon bubgs turned up and i realised i have no airlocks......... i threw them all out years ago 

Will get an airlock through the week......... the foil will do while its chugging away producing lots of gas.

363 days to go


----------



## barls (19/3/13)

cubes or dominos are better for long term ageing. mate.


----------



## seamad (20/3/13)

Love the red ned picture, awesome.Reckon the chips will be fine, tannins soften with age and if it's too much can always spilt into two with some fresh wort and add some fruit. Hanging out to get my barrel.


----------



## Tony (20/3/13)

Yeah i figure if its way too oak laden...... i will be forced to brew another one with minimal or no oak, and blend the old one with the young beer.

How cool is a beer that you can fix a couple years down the track with another batch if you get it wrong


----------



## raven19 (21/3/13)

DrSmurto used the oven on a medium heat iirc to 'treat' his oak prior to using in a bigger experimental beer of his recently.

I just soaked mine in sanitiser for a while then tossed them into primary.

Might go the oven option next time.


----------



## tiprya (26/3/13)

Well after more than a week after I pitched the 7 month old packet of roeselare, I haven't got any activity/krausen.

Don't really have an option to get any more liquid yeast in a hurry, so I'm building up some 3711 on the stir plate which should be ready to pitch tomorrow.

I guess I'll end up with a funky saison (if any of the bacteria is still alive), which should still be pretty interesting.


----------



## Tony (26/3/13)

bugger!

best option will be to just get something in there. Keep the 3711 cool to keep the lemon hit minimal.

I always keep a pack or 2 of dried US-05 or Noto in the fridge for such times.


----------



## tiprya (27/3/13)

Well whatya know? 

I go to pitch my 3711 this morning, and I'm met with nice fluffy krausen that has the delicious smell of lacto.

Bit concerned about the lag time, but if it means the lacto gets a good head start and its a sour monster, that's ok with me.

355 days to go...


----------



## Tony (27/3/13)

Its always the way isnt it......... the saison yeast scared it


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## seamad (12/4/13)

Picking up my barrel and some grain next week. Going to epoxy a SS nipple into the barrel and fit a 1/2 inch 3 piece ball valve to make it easier to use the barrel as a solera ( and reduce oxidation issues)..Going to make 4 X 25L batches at @ 1.052 ( maybe higher if I can get anymore out of my system). Thought I might do 2 different grain bills to mix things up a bit. Water additions will probably be 5g calcium sulphate to mash and extra 2.5g in boil along with 2.5g salt.
Wort 1
Vienna 64% 
Abbey 10%
Maize 10%
Carabelge 13%
Special B 3%

Wort 2
Vienna 64%
Aromatic 10%
Carared 10%
Golden naked oat 3%
Raw wheat 10%
Caraaroma 3%

Will gelatinise the wheat first.

Both bittered to 10 IBU EKG and/or Styrians

Will pitch 5 packs of 3763 ( Roeselare ) into 75L wort in barrel and add remaining 25 after krausen settled down.

Stick barrel into cellar and try to leave alone for a year.

How does this plan sound ?

Edit...forgot mash schedule

52/15, 63/45, 72/30, 76/10.


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## winkle (1/5/13)

(Seamad and I have been looking at the same cheat sheet, methinks)

*Recipe: FR test batch*
Style: Flanders Red Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Recipe Specifications --------------------------
Boil Size: 32.13 l
Post Boil Volume: 27.86 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 26.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 16.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 83.9 %
Boil Time: 70 Minutes
Ingredients: ------------

2.40 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 1 42.6 %
1.10 kg Corn, Flaked (2.6 EBC) Grain 2 19.5 %
1.10 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EB Grain 3 19.5 %
0.43 kg Aromatic Malt (Dingemans) (37.4 EBC) Grain 4 7.6 %
0.43 kg Caramunich III (Weyermann) (139.9 EBC) Grain 5 7.6 %
0.18 kg Special B (Dingemans) (290.6 EBC) Grain 6 3.2 %
20.00 g Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50 %] - Boil Hop 7 16.7 IBUs
1.0 pkg Roselare Belgian Blend (Wyeast Labs #376 Yeast 8 -
1 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 9 -
Total Grain Weight: 5.64 kg ----------------------------
Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body

Mash In Add 17.74 l of water at 74.5 C 68.9 C 45 min
Mash Out Add 5.88 l of water at 98.1 C 75.6 C 10 min
Sparge: Fly sparge with 17.19 l water at 75.6 C

I'm pretty certain I'll be going for a primary ferment with a neutral ale yeast, then looking at bunging it into the barrel with the Roselare Belgian Blend and leaving it for 12 months before checking with the aim of 18 months before drawing and blending it with a newer batch. I've talked myself out of using a tap for this and will have to go with a wine thief & syphon.

Thoughts Rowy?


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## seamad (2/5/13)

(Seamad and I have been looking at the same cheat sheet, methinks)


Wild Brews by chance ?

If you're up for it would like to swap say 10 L to make a keg blend ? in a year or so ?


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## winkle (2/5/13)

seamad said:


> (Seamad and I have been looking at the same cheat sheet, methinks)
> 
> 
> Wild Brews by chance ?
> ...


If I've got 40 litres in that barrel then why not.


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## Rowy (2/5/13)

This looks good to me Perry.


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## Sam England (2/5/13)

@seamad - Is there any reason why you'd ferment directly in the barrel? If you continue to do this over the years, won't you end up with a massive yeast cake/sediment and autolysis issues? I've never made a sour and I'm tempted to have a crack, hence the question. I also noticed that Winkle is going down the primary and then barrel approach which I thought sounded logical to avoid this especially if you're going to continue to top up as you decant. I understand the lacto will have a crack at the yeast residue, but are there any benefits in keeping it all in the barrel other than possible oxidation issues during top ups?


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## Tony (2/5/13)

The bacteria in a sour actually feeds on the dead yeast and the compounds associated with autolysis, They feed on any unconverted starch, tanin compounds from a hot sparge etc etc.

You need to break some rules to make a good sour i think


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## tazman1967 (2/5/13)

Sour beers are all about breaking the rules


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## winkle (3/5/13)

Tony said:


> The bacteria in a sour actually feeds on the dead yeast and the compounds associated with autolysis, They feed on any unconverted starch, tanin compounds from a hot sparge etc etc.
> 
> You need to break some rules to make a good sour i think


Rodenbach ferments initially in stainless before transfering to oak, so I was thinking that would be to avoid any autolysis problems. This may be since we are thinking of this particularly in a solera. However if doing a once off it should be no problem.


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## seamad (3/5/13)

Blue Baggers said:


> @seamad - Is there any reason why you'd ferment directly in the barrel? If you continue to do this over the years, won't you end up with a massive yeast cake/sediment and autolysis issues? I've never made a sour and I'm tempted to have a crack, hence the question. I also noticed that Winkle is going down the primary and then barrel approach which I thought sounded logical to avoid this especially if you're going to continue to top up as you decant. I understand the lacto will have a crack at the yeast residue, but are there any benefits in keeping it all in the barrel other than possible oxidation issues during top ups?


Fermentation raises some interesting problems for the homebrewer of sours ( either lambic or flanders types). As brewers of normal beers we control fermentation as tightly as possible with pitch rates, temperature control etc. With sours we lose that control to a large extent ( and I think we have to let it go ) and the fact that lambics are traditionally blended is testimony to that, in that different barrels from one producer can vary significantly. Typically Rodenbach (the holy grail) undergoes tertiary fermentation. Primary is sach, in secondary Lacto then takes over, then Pedio, Tertiary fermentation in the wooden barrels then proceeds ( where Brett comes into the picture).

As much as I would like to control the fermentation I've decided to try a lambic approach to fermenting my flanders red, in that the wort will be inoculated ( with 5 packs of Roeselare ) and I'll leave it up to the bugs to do as they please. According to wyeast they have a good balance of organisms to produce a flanders style red, and I think this is an easier way for me than to try and copy rodenbachs techniques.Wyeast also states that with repitching the beer will become too acidic, so I will need to empty and rinse out the barrel from time to time and refill and repitch. With time hopefully the barrel will develop its own (pleasant ?) character. I hope to do a type of solera sytem in that even with barrel rinsing I can transfer some of the old beer to cubes and then put back into the barrel after rinsing with some fresh yeast and wort.I'm putting a ball valve into the barrel to reduce oxdation/pellicle issues when just removing 20 litres as well.

I'm not expecting a rodenbach clone ( that would be either naive or arrogant),but some sort of lambicy flanders rediish type of beer, whether this approach will work, well that's up the the beer gods.


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## Sam England (3/5/13)

Cheers for the feedback guys. It sounds like I've got a bit more reading to do before I jump in on this one, but it would be great to hear how your brews progress (even if I have to wait a year!! <_< ).
I'll probably have a crack at some point though, given I'm developing a taste for sours and the price/ease of getting hold of good ones here in Oz.


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## winkle (3/5/13)

> I'm not expecting a rodenbach clone ( that would be either naive or arrogant),but some sort of lambicy flanders rediish type of beer, whether this approach will work, well that's up the the beer gods.


Exactly, it'll be interesting to note the differences between approaches to the ferment. Pencil in a tasting session in 18 months or so . I'm not faulting your plan - it is what I was going to do originally and I'm sure it will work - just not very keen on the tap.
As a side note - the BABBs wild brew project went with an initial ferment (W3787, 10%abv) at the individuals houses before checking them (safety first) then blending the acceptable batches into the hogshead with the Roselare and leaving it alone. End result was a pretty damm tasty, high gravity, sour ale of no particular style.


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