# Plumbing Connection Lesson - From A Plumber :)



## WilBier (28/6/06)

Plumbing tips (from me, that's coz I'm a plumber),

Not sure if anyone really wants to here this but I'd just thought I'd throw in a few cents worth.
There are a few standard connection types, and then there are some proprietary connection types.

For example, with copper tubing, there are standard sizings, with many manufacturers making tubing to suit - most common are 1/2 inch and 3/4. Common standard connection type is called a compression fitting - 1/2" or 3/4". The connections are generally made of brass as copper is too maleable to hold a thread under pressure. So you would (normally for water) use a brass compression fitting to join two pieces of copper. Not much point in using a stainless compression fitting for copper tubing - but you do need flaring block to make any compression end to a piece of copper tubing (remember to put the nut on first).

Next standard fitting is (in Australia) called a BSP thread - if anyone didn't know what this means, it literally means British Standard Pipe thread pattern. So a half inch fitting uses certain thread dimensions, there always matching 1/2 inch male threads and 1/2" female threads. But not necessarily the same millimeterage (is that a word?) as the BSP thread pattern for 3/4". I only say this so that if you were tapping a thread into a pipe or a vessel, the thread pattern increases as the pipe diameter increases. Hence the reason for BSP standards. BSP threads are matched to any type of fitting eg; a 1 x 3/4 inch brass reducing bush has the exact same thread as a 1 x 3/4 inch pvc reducing bush. That means a 1/2 inch brass female socket would accept a 1/2 inch male thread from brass, pvc, poly, stainless.... getting it?

Just be mindfull of thread standards because in Australia we use BSP standards, and in the land of da yankee, they use something like UNC which means United Stated Convention or something - hey it might be the same as BSP not sure...

Other standards probably include things like push-fit hose fittings - most 1/2" (12mm) garden hoses fit each other don't they.

I guess dirty old hose barbs are standards too (I hates them!) They accept a hose of any material provided it has the right ID (internal diameter). But you do need a hose clamp for it to hang on tight.

This is were proprietary fittings take over, if you wanted to make a better fitting, make it so that no one elses fittings can attach to it - make more money. For example swagelock stainless fittings are awesome for joining stainless tube. Remembering that the 1/2 inch stainless tube itself is made to a standard, hence my 1/2" tube benders which I mainly use for copper still will bend stainless tubing well - and it looks great too. You not only need the swagelock fittings, but you also need the swagelock tool to tell yo if you have done it up tight enough. Hence proprietary dollar making.

There are other proprietary fittings out there like some of the quick-fit push in food grade hose fittings. These kick but over hose barbs (my opinion only) as you dont need a hose clamp, but you have to buy their brand if you wanna use them. If you wanna use the food grade hose, and cheap out on the fittings, use a hose barb from any old manufacturer.

Going around slightly in circles, but I hope I have started to clarify in some peoples mind what some of the fittings mean.

I also wanted to welcome myself to this forum, so welcome WilBier, and many more plumbing lessons to come, should anyone need the know 


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## browndog (28/6/06)

Welcome and thanks for the 1st lesson Wilbier, I'm sure as a plumber you will be providing heaps of info for the boys here, we are very much a DIY lot. Can I recommend you go to the pub section of the forum and make a post on the introduce yourself thread.


cheers

Browndog


edit spelling


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## Jez (28/6/06)

Welcome WilBier,

Thanks for the informative post. I look forward to many more for this plumbing novice.

PS - where do you live? I need to bend some stainless 1/2" tubing - can I borrow your tube bender?  

....or can you come & do do it for me?   

.........pretty please :huh: 

Jez


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## stephen (28/6/06)

Welcome WilBier. A very informative post and I'm sure you may be getting some "AH! That's why it wouldn't fit!" comments being made around Australia in the privacy of various homes. 

Fortunately, my LHBS proprietor has a bit of a plumbing background and is very free with any informtion and professional assistance in this area. This really helps some of the Hunter brewers in creating their breweries.

Again, welcome and where you can provide an input into a discussion feel free to do so - even if the info you provide may be seen to be erroneous, it provides material for a healthy debate and sometimes will induce some flow of knowledge onto the forum for others to 'lap up'.

Cheers

Steve

PS Last paragraph, I'm not saying what you posted tonight is erroneous, but future posts outside your area of expertise can sometimes be taken this way.


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## Ducatiboy stu (28/6/06)

Hehe...Bet most of those IT guys just learnt something .... :lol:


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## poppa joe (28/6/06)

been to the gasfitter today to get my gastank checked...
BSP=55 degrees thread pitch..
UNC==60 degrees thread pitch..
PJ


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## Ash in Perth (28/6/06)

Thanks and welcome Wilbier!

Btw. how does NPT fit into all of this?


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## Pumpy (28/6/06)

Ash in Perth said:


> Thanks and welcome Wilbier!
> 
> Btw. how does NPT fit into all of this?




NPT is a US thread on the March pump it is 1/2 NPT that is exactly the same as 1/2"BSP that does not apply to other sizes in NPT 

pumpy


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## Ash in Perth (28/6/06)

cool that means i can stick to the BSP threaded stuff to make it easy.
Cheers


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## WilBier (28/6/06)

Ash in Perth said:


> cool that means i can stick to the BSP threaded stuff to make it easy.
> Cheers




Hey fellas, 

thanks for saying hello. One more thing with the BSP thing, is that there is also the notion of parallel thread vs tapered thread. 

What this means is this: a compression fitting has a tapered thread and a compression face on it. It uses the compression face to seal. The thread is there simply for the nut to grab onto and pull the flared tube onto the face of the compression nut. You may use teflon to help tighten the fitting, but it is not using the thread to seal - it is using the compression fitting.

Different for a male/female iron fitting. You may have heard the name of a fitting female iron tee? that is a tee with 3 female connectors. These fittings use the thread to seal. So use heaps of teflon, and you don't have to tighten it until you can't rotate the fittings any more - if you have used adequate sealant, you can stop threading in even if it is still easy to wind - that way all your fittings can line up nicely 

I guess you can get mixed up somewhere along the line because some compression fittings screw into female iron sockets. This may not seal properly as the compression fitting has a tapered thread pattern. 

Again hello to all. 

WilBier - the keen amatuer brewer who looks forward to building a shed to have room to brew.


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## berazafi (28/6/06)

Nice post, thanks for the info


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## Tony (28/6/06)

plumbng like this  Its all 1/2 inch BSP

Im a sparkee 

I think we share the same union mate.

betterthan those bloody fitters 

.......... where is the bite 

cheers


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## big d (28/6/06)

AMWU


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## big d (28/6/06)

Only a sparky would mount an electrical control box under a HLT.The fitter would put it in a more user friendly position.  

Big D h34r:


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## timmy (28/6/06)

Wilbier, 

Thought you only needed a flaring block for a flare fitting, not a compression fitting?


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## Tony (28/6/06)

not sure if the sparkies and the plumbers are still amalgimated.

ETU here

cheers


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## WilBier (28/6/06)

timmy said:


> Wilbier,
> 
> Thought you only needed a flaring block for a flare fitting, not a compression fitting?




Hey Timmy-O 

hmm, as with all trades in comes the 'lingo'. It is similar to saying that Queenslanders have an accent and us Mexican's (south of the border) don't. So I can only speak from experience on this one.
I know it this way: A compression fitting seals on the flared joint. So you buy a compression elbow (for example) put the nut over the end of tube, use a flaring block (or rapid flarers) to spread the copper, then tighten the compression fitting to seal it. 
What I am saying is I call it a compression fitting. And use a flaring block to make it happen. 
There are other types of fittings that use an 'olive' that slides over the copper, then the but compresses this olive to make the seal. 

Get's fun doesn't it.

WilBier


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## WilBier (28/6/06)

Tony said:


> plumbng like this  Its all 1/2 inch BSP
> 
> Im a sparkee
> 
> ...



Dam fine plumning on the rig Tony. Even for a sparkee. 
Sure wish my boss would sign that EBA and let me take those every second Monday RDO's.

Guess I will have to make do with beer-induced sicky's instead.

Really neat work though. Did you plan it all out? or just knock it up as you went?

Wilbier


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## Tony (28/6/06)

i used the olive fittings........ its easier for us without flaring tools.

easy.

cheers


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## Tony (28/6/06)

planned it but the plan fell in a heap so i knocked it up as i went.

I hooled up the outlets from the vessels first then hooked them up to the inlet of the pump

them i worked on the outlet side and did it bit by bit.

I just got a new job working a 9 day fortnight............ roster day every second week  hehehe

cheers


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## timmy (28/6/06)

Don't mind me, I'm just a fitter come fridgey.

I've even started calling silver soldering welding.


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## WilBier (28/6/06)

timmy said:


> Don't mind me, I'm just a fitter come fridgey.
> 
> I've even started calling silver soldering welding.




Heh - might as well call it welding - is quicker to say aint it?


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## WilBier (28/6/06)

Tony said:


> planned it but the plan fell in a heap so i knocked it up as i went.
> 
> I hooled up the outlets from the vessels first then hooked them up to the inlet of the pump
> 
> ...




Yeah right-O, rub it in. I think I have seen one of your stubbie holders which has a calendar printed on it and different coloured squares for different days of the week. Has more coloured RDO's than coloured day's at work if I remember corectly...


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## Batz (28/6/06)

big d said:


> Only a sparky would mount an electrical control box under a HLT.The fitter would put it in a more user friendly position.
> 
> Big D h34r:




Stands out hey BigD

Fitters unite ! 

Batz


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## Franko (28/6/06)

Thanks for the informative post


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## big d (28/6/06)

shall i rub it in a bit more batz
Yeah ok.Up my way we work a 4 days on 4 days off roster.FiFOs do a 8 days on 8 days off roster.Very hard to handle. :lol: 

Cheers in days off
Big D


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## Tony (28/6/06)

ahhhh here we go.

have you fitters ever heard of an IP rating???

and where would you have put it?

overthe top of the kettle. thats where the fitters i work with would have put it 

I didnt wantto go wider and heat rises.

It is an electric HLT and no heat got into the box from the hLT.

Yeah i bit...... i know .....but a silly poke in the ribs needs a good bite i recon 

cheers

PS, Big D, you seem to have a real problem with te panel and its location.

what would you have done?

seriosly, in interested. i might be smart but i dont know everything.

cheers


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## Tony (28/6/06)

oh and batz...... only a leco could build a panel like that to mount under the HLT 

and i can stick, mig, tig, oxy weld, oxy cut, use a plasma cutter, i can even ues a broom ............. the list goes on.

I have worked with some great fitters over the years. better tradesmen than most leccos i have worked with. Just the ones i work with now are losers. I have seen rotted out pipes that have been "patched" several times when replacement would have taken half the time...... its sad!

just having a poke mate 

cheers


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## Tony (28/6/06)

how much do you pay in postage for a bag of grain Big D ?


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## big d (28/6/06)

Great bite Tony.
I dont like having to bend down for something that could have been placed in a better locale so if and when i get around to building a great set up like you have done i would be more inclinded to put it over to the left or right of the kegs at a level so as not to bend down.Maybe even raise a section up to place it at a level your happy with so as not to bend down to hit a button etc.Im just thinking of ergonomics as its what is contineualy punched into us at work.

Cheers
Big D


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## big d (28/6/06)

Double the price of a bag of grain and your on the mark Tony by the time you add on road and sea freight costs.Havent bought recently but i believe the sea freight cost from Darwin to here has gone up heaps.

Cheers
Big D


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## Batz (28/6/06)

Tony said:


> oh and batz...... only a leco could build a panel like that to mount under the HLT
> 
> and i can stick, mig, tig, oxy weld, oxy cut, use a plasma cutter, i can even ues a broom ............. the list goes on.
> 
> ...




Sorry Tomy
Missed that reply till now :blink: 
Are you saying you don't like fitters?
No no No man I can't believe that !
Fitters !!
Fitters!!
Fitters!!

Some of the nicest people you'll ever meet mate
All the nice fitters raise a glass to you h34r: :
Batz


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## Tony (28/6/06)

must be a bugger mate. I am always looking for ways to cut back on postage. I get my old man to pick up my grain orders from MHB and i get them from him when i see him 

otherwise its $1/kg average for a bag or 3 of grain.

i am only 5'10" amd 76kg. Im only a litle fella..... i have to squat down to get to the taps on the system so the panel isnt a prob
each to theit own

I have designed a bracket to hold the panel out beside the HLT as you sugeated but where it is is neat and simple and the box is watertight .

only need to make a SS shroud for the pump. waret gets in it too easy.

might do that tomorrow.

cheers


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## big d (28/6/06)

I will raise a glass to Tony. :chug: 
Im nice really i am


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## Tony (28/6/06)

I have worked with some great fitters over the years. better tradesmen than most leccos i have worked with. Just the ones i work with now are losers.

read batz.....

i have no problems  

oh my alcahol problem but we wont talk about that 

cheers


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## Batz (28/6/06)

Cool


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## tdh (29/6/06)

Long Live The Fitters
Fitters Unite

tdh


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## berazafi (29/6/06)

What about solinoids insead of valves, and a remote control, and a fully automated progam generated from promash or beersmith

You elecs and your manual controls lol

BTW: very nice setup tony, well thought out and very well executed


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## Tony (29/6/06)

Ahhh i was waiting for a bite from you GT 

berazafi...... dont wory, i have a PLC and can program citect........ its on the books for one day ..... full automation from the lounge room

but not just yet 

cheers


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## apd (29/6/06)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Hehe...Bet most of those IT guys just learnt something .... :lol:



Damn straight.


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## Borret (29/6/06)

Pumpy said:


> Ash in Perth said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks and welcome Wilbier!
> ...



Not quite true pumpy. Well in fact totally not true. NPT is National Pipe Tapered and BSP is British Standard Pipe. The tapered version is BSPT.  

Further to this as has been (sort of) previously stated the thread form is different. BSP is 55 deg and NP is 60deg. Although both are infact still 14 threads per inch (pitch), the overall diameter of the 1/2" untapered threads is different by just over .25mm. So indeed the tapered version does go together with either standard female threads and seal with the help of some thread tape but there is a more pronounced mating difference in the untapered versions. 

So short of donning a blue and white striped apron with the intent of not using the fitting again elsewhere- a NP male thread will not go so nicely in a BSP female.

As for the difference between trades ..... I'm an industrial designer employed as a design engineer designing plastic mouldings on a computer but covered under the metalworkers union..... so where does that sit? :huh: 

Brent


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## WilBier (29/6/06)

Borret said:


> Pumpy said:
> 
> 
> > Ash in Perth said:
> ...



Nice one Brent,

Fortunately there aren't too many instances where we have to try and fit into an NPT thread. Short of importing a US pump that comes fabricated with a female 1/2 inch thread, then we go down to the local plumbing suplies store and buy a 1/2 inch male threaded fitting to screw into it and wonder why is don't thread in so well. 
Luckily for us, almost all fittings from our shops are BSP, and fit each other nicely. Threads are also a nice place to change materials. eg female brass accepts a male poly - just don't screw plastic fittings too tight into metal or they can crack.
Obviously silver soldering copper together is a nice cheap way to join tube too. You can use expanders, or buy copper connectors, they cost like 30c each. Remember, if you wanted to do some silver soldering to join copper, then needed to get back to a threaded fitting, if that fitting were brass the diss-similar metals would need flux to assist soldering the joint. Yes is you are careful (or out of flux) you can still join the brass and copper, you just have to put more heat on the brass until it melts, and try not to blow through the copper tube.

WilBier


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## Trough Lolly (3/7/06)

WilBier and all,
Thanks for the great thread - former IT geeks like me need help with this stuff and ok, whilst some get paid enough to call out "the little man from the village" to fix stuff, I'm mad enough to roll up the sleeves and actually have a go!! h34r:  

Now, I need some advice - I'm looking for 5/8" BSP locknuts for my Rubbermaid mashtun - I need a couple to go inside the cavity between the inner and outer walls so I can fasten the O-ring, washer and locknut that sit inside the mashtun, onto the short nipple. Obviously I want a "small profile" locknut since it's gonna be a tight fit trying to push the locknut through the outer wall to begin with...

I looked around and didn't find much on Yahoo or Google - are 5/8ths BSP locknuts reasonably common or am I in a world of pain? :unsure: 
I found a website (microfasteners.com.au) ...here... and they mention hex nuts in Metric, BSW, UNC, UNF, and nylon inserted etc. Is BSW close to BSP?

If you blokes know of a supplier of 5/8ths BSP locknuts, I'd be a happy brewer...
Cheers,
TL


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## MHB (3/7/06)

TL
I think I read the obituary for 5/8 pipe and fittings a decade or two ago, it and a few other odd sizes got metricated out when we changed from lsd to a more rational system.

and are the ones to look for.

MHB


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## Trough Lolly (3/7/06)

Bummer....When I googled, I managed to pick up some instruction manuals for aircon and marine installation docs that had 5/8ths locknuts listed, but there wasn't a hell of a lot of locknuts listed at supplier sites - might have to check with Bunnings for brass ones - it doesn't matter too much what metal they are since they're on the dry side of the mashtun.


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## WilBier (3/7/06)

Trough Lolly said:


> Bummer....When I googled, I managed to pick up some instruction manuals for aircon and marine installation docs that had 5/8ths locknuts listed, but there wasn't a hell of a lot of locknuts listed at supplier sites - might have to check with Bunnings for brass ones - it doesn't matter too much what metal they are since they're on the dry side of the mashtun.



Hi Trough lolly, 

Trying not to sound too much out of my depth here, but since my (current) main area of plumbing is airconditioning and heating and cooling, we come across a variety of sizes. With AC, every different split system has liquid and vapour lines running between the compressor and the coils. Always a (small) liquid line running from the compressor to the coils and a (larger) vapour line running back to the compressor. As it comes out of the coils, the refrigerant temperature is still really cold, hence must insulate this line on the way back to the compressor - or get nasty condensation in your plaster walls. I love going off on tangents.
The long and short of it is that still today, the most common pair coil in AC units is a 3/8"x 5/8" copper pair coil. so there are a large number of fittings to suit. In AC, the most common are 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5'8", 3/4" and 7/8". The largest I have done was for a add-on cooler and was an 1 /1/8" copper, but all are common depends if the unit is 1 HP, or 2.5HP or 3HP (horse power) etc. all use different copper pair coils.
But your original question about the lock nuts. Hmmm.
I am not an expert here. I know that BSP male/female iron fittings are a standard for threads, but am a little rusty with nust and bolts.
This is what I know.
Nuts and bolts are different. There are metric and there are imperial.
If you needed an 75mm M16 bolt, that would be a 75mm long bolt with a metric thread and a diameter of 16mm. There would be a metric (M16) nut to suit it. I think (this is all from memory) that a 6mm meteric threaded bolt has a thread spacing of 1mm, and the next size up, 8mm, has maybe a 1.1 mm thread spacing - that's not the point. The point is that every bolt diameter has a Metric thread, and a nut to suit it.

The thread patterns are different for imperial bolts. In a previous job, all I did was change rusted bolts over for new ones at an acid plant - fertiliser, not the backyard kind... All the bolts on site were 5/8" bolts (so yes ther are still common usage in Australia), hence needed 5/8" nuts. A 5/8" bolt is almost the same as an M16 (metric 16mm diameter) but a nut would never thread more than 1/2 a turn as the thread patterns certainly don't mach - I think much wider for an imperial pattern.

So still trying to answer your question, go to a bolt shop, and ask them for the fitting. They usually have endless kinds, and are usually really friendly. Take the fitting you want and ask them to find something that fits. 

Hope I have helped.

WilBier


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## Hubby (3/7/06)

WilBier said:


> So still trying to answer your question, go to a bolt shop, and ask them for the fitting. They usually have endless kinds, and are usually really friendly. Take the fitting you want and ask them to find something that fits.


Or better still, find a fitter who has a set of thread gauges, verniers and a thread chart and Bob's your uncle ... hmmm, all those sly fitter jokes aren't half as good as some of the plumber jokes I've heard (er, yes I am a fitter & turner from way back  )


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## Trough Lolly (4/7/06)

Thanks fellas for the insights...
I'll visit the blokes at the local plumbers supply and bring the nipple and ball valve with me.
Cheers,
TL


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## Stagger (4/7/06)

Rowan if you going to our meeting this week I can make a nut for you at work, if you sure its 5/8 BSP. I have some brass hex bat and I can drill and tap the thread for you, let me know.


Stagger


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