# Ferment in a Kettle (FIAK)



## bloodygoose (28/9/20)

I’m relatively new to home brewing (about a year or so) and want to keep my all grain brewing as simple and time efficient as possible.

So far I’ve been brewing BIAB recipes using the Digiboil kettle, transferring the wort overnight into a no chill container, ferment for a few weeks in a Fermentasaurus, and then transfer into a 19l corny keg to store and condition under pressure for up to six months. And when it’s ready to drink I put the keg into the Kegerator.

I want to ditch the messy bag for a malt pipe so I will need to replace the Digiboil with a Guten/Brewzilla/Grainfather. And as I’m moving to a smaller house, and I only brew every 3-4 weeks, I’ve been reading up on the Ferment in a Kettle (FIAK) process. I‘m hoping I can adapt the kettle to seal the lid and add a pressure relief valve. i can remove the hops by using a hop sack during the boil, chill the wort in the kettle, throw in the yeast and ferment in the (temperature controlled) kettle. That takes out two steps and uses far less gear.

I’d love to hear comments and advice on whether this can work?

thanks


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## kadmium (28/9/20)

So i'm just trying to get this right, you want to ditch your pressure fermenter and start fermenting in a Guten / Robobrew?

You condition kegs of beer at room temp for 6 months?

You want to somehow pressurise a guten/robobrew using a lid and prv?

How will the kettle be temp controlled?


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## wide eyed and legless (28/9/20)

bloodygoose said:


> I’m relatively new to home brewing (about a year or so) and want to keep my all grain brewing as simple and time efficient as possible.
> 
> So far I’ve been brewing BIAB recipes using the Digiboil kettle, transferring the wort overnight into a no chill container, ferment for a few weeks in a Fermentasaurus, and then transfer into a 19l corny keg to store and condition under pressure for up to six months. And when it’s ready to drink I put the keg into the Kegerator.
> 
> ...


Yes you can, though it is going to cost you and to be honest not worth the money.
There is a mash tun, kettle, fermenter on the market. But just not worth the money, if space is a problem transfer to fermenter, clean SVB and store away. A Guten or BrewZilla and a Snubnose is all you will need. You could ferment in the vessels mentioned but you would have to dump the trub and not be able to pressure ferment.
So my advice is get two vessels a fermenter and SVB or fork out for a more expensive unit which will be tied up until fermentation is finished.








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## MHB (28/9/20)

Fermenting on the trub is a really bad idea!
Unless you have some way to remove the trub and leave the wort in the kettle just don't do it.

Here is a little introductory piece on why we boil a wort, getting hop products into the wort is only one of the reasons. One of the other major ones is to reduce high molecular weight proteins (hot break). If you ferment on the break material it will be reabsorbed and you have just undone one of the reasons for doing what is often the most expensive and time consuming parts of brewing.
Mark


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## bloodygoose (28/9/20)

Thanks everyone. Is it possible to dump the trub using the valve at the bottom of the kettle?

Looks like a Guten/Snubnose could be a way to go.


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## MHB (28/9/20)




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## Markbeer (29/9/20)

I have thought about conducting the boil in a stainless conical fermenter with OTS elements to do this.

Chill, dump trub, pitch yeast.

Then dump yeast, pressurise, carb and serve.

One vessel brewing.

Only thinking stage.

I have seen similar such as the williamswarn. But let's not go there.





bloodygoose said:


> Thanks everyone. Is it possible to dump the trub using the valve at the bottom of the kettle?
> 
> Looks like a Guten/Snubnose could be a way to go.


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## bloodygoose (29/9/20)

Markbeer said:


> I have thought about conducting the boil in a stainless conical fermenter with OTS elements to do this.
> 
> Chill, dump trub, pitch yeast.
> 
> ...



Yes, exactly. I’ve read posts from people who say they have built DIY Brew in a Conical systems but no details about how it was done and what works well.


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## wide eyed and legless (30/9/20)

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## bloodygoose (3/10/20)

The Brewha looks awesome but is beyond my budget. If anyone has used a heat sick in stainless conical fermenter (a or kettle) with a temperature controller, I’d love to hear from you.


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## Grmblz (4/10/20)

bloodygoose said:


> The Brewha looks awesome but is beyond my budget. If anyone has used a heat sick in stainless conical fermenter (a or kettle) with a temperature controller, I’d love to hear from you.


The problem with heat sticks is their watt density, essentially they tend to get too hot and you can very easily scorch your wort.
Look for ULWD (ultra low watt density) elements, fwiw I've never found one in a heat stick configuration.
Thermostats tend to be on/off, so full noise or nothing, and at full noise you'll get scorching.
A work around is to power your element with a voltage reducing heat controller, use an SSR, then use your thermostat to switch the controller, but it's a lot of faffing around.


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## Standard (4/10/20)

Grmblz said:


> The problem with heat sticks is their watt density, essentially they tend to get too hot and you can very easily scorch your wort.
> Look for ULWD (ultra low watt density) elements, fwiw I've never found one in a heat stick configuration.
> Thermostats tend to be on/off, so full noise or nothing, and at full noise you'll get scorching.
> A work around is to power your element with a voltage reducing heat controller, use an SSR, then use your thermostat to switch the controller, but it's a lot of faffing around.


You could make one of these if you handy using a ULWD element.








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## bloodygoose (4/10/20)

Thanks guys - I will let you know how it goes. Your help is really appreciated


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## Grmblz (4/10/20)

Have been thinking about this over dinner, yeh I'm a sad bastard, over the years I've struggled with scorched worts and washes, and now use SSRs' to drop the voltage where the size of an ULWD element is too long, also ULWD elements tend to be quite expensive. Light bulb moment Ta Daa, maybe.






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These things are high watt density BUT! 380v, my rudimentary electrical knowledge suggests putting 220v through them will result in a LWD/ULWD element?
IF! this is the case I could ditch my SSRs'
Any thoughts from those with greater knowledge of sparks?


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## GrumpyPaul (4/10/20)

Id be wary buying anything from wish. I don't think I've heard a good story ever about anyone buying from them.


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## Grmblz (4/10/20)

Yep agreed, was just using it as an example of the elements, Bang good or Ali is my go to, for Chinese stuff., but buyer beware as always.


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## Sjek (5/10/20)

MHB said:


> Fermenting on the trub is a really bad idea!
> Unless you have some way to remove the trub and leave the wort in the kettle just don't do it.
> 
> Here is a little introductory piece on why we boil a wort, getting hop products into the wort is only one of the reasons. One of the other major ones is to reduce high molecular weight proteins (hot break). If you ferment on the break material it will be reabsorbed and you have just undone one of the reasons for doing what is often the most expensive and time consuming parts of brewing.
> Mark



How do the no chill people do it? Don’t they transfer hot break in their fermenter too?

I’ve never done no chill but I guess if you transfer straight after boil into a cube you don’t have a cold break and you’re going to transfer trub into the cube. When you then transfer into a fermenter it’d be hard to seperate the trub that’s settled on the bottom of the cube unless you use a siphon. And as far as I know 90% of no chillers tip the lot straight into the fermenter?


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## Joshed1 (5/10/20)

Look I'm going to go against the grain here and say this actually one of my lazy day process's when i have limited time to brew and do not want to clean multiple vessels. I brew in an stainless steel urn, seal the top and no chill overnight, put hops and yeast in the next day then transfer into a purged keg from the tap after fermentation. Wouldn't say this is good practice but I do this with heavy hopped quick turn around pales. The beauty of it is I get one to two day turn arounds on fermentation by using Kveik and temperature controlling via the urn at around 36 degrees (depending on strain). There are a lot of benefits for me brewing like this when short on time, but also a number of negatives. I also toyed with turning the urn into a low pressure fermenter as well but I don't think it is possible nor worth the effort personally.


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## MHB (5/10/20)

Sjek said:


> How do the no chill people do it? Don’t they transfer hot break in their fermenter too?
> 
> I’ve never done no chill but I guess if you transfer straight after boil into a cube you don’t have a cold break and you’re going to transfer trub into the cube. When you then transfer into a fermenter it’d be hard to seperate the trub that’s settled on the bottom of the cube unless you use a siphon. And as far as I know 90% of no chillers tip the lot straight into the fermenter?



I no-chill most of my home brewed beers and don't transfer the hot break, it stays in the kettle where it belongs.
Its just the same as if we were transferring the beer from the kettle to a fermenter.

Its really important to differentiate between Hot and Cold break. The Trub in the bottom of the kettle is a mixture of lots of stuff, none of which is in any way beneficial (in fact its harmful) to the fermenting beer. Kettle trubs main constituents are going to be: -
Hop Debris- Basically benign in terms of flavour, if present in the fermenter it can cause some problems as do any chunky bits (like dry hops), will attract some Iso-Alpha acid reducing bitterness a bit, may entrap some yeast reducing fermentation performance. These days with the amount of cube/dry hops going into beer it is probably unimportant. Mechanically it will add to the amount of trub in the fermenter and can increase losses.
Hot Break-
HMW Protein- One of the main reasons we boil for 60+ minutes is to reduce High Molecular Weight Protein. HMWP is a major contributor to the staling of beer, many higher alcohols (fusels) are split from HMWP when they are metabolised. Leads to premature haze formation.
Fining Material- this is linked to HMW protein. we use various products to help the wort clarify, primarily Carrageenan from Irish Moss (seaweed) Carrageenan attracts HMWP by having an electrostatic charge the opposite to the HMWP so they stick together and settle out. As the ferment progresses the pH falls, the attraction between proteins and finings is very pH dependent, as the pH falls the fining will release the HMWP and start attracting the MWP (medium) that is one of the major contributors to head formation, reduced head is likely.
Polyphenols- Commonly called Tannins, these are preferentially attracted to HMWP, if the HMWP/Polyphenol is the classic hot break we see in the boil, released back into the beer it will contribute to harsh astringent flavours.
Lipids- Something like 70% of the lipids (fats and oils) will be found in the hot break, these are something we really want to remove from beer, some is consumed by yeast during its reproduction, but in general the lipids precipitated in the kettle aren't wanted in the ferment. Lipids are one of the fastest ways to initiate staling, reduce head, encourage Oxidisation through enzymic pathways (O2 free oxidisation or autoxidation). The old cardboard staling flavour (T2N) is a sure sign of lipids screwing your beer.
Lots More- but I CAB go and read the link I put in above or do some more research

Seriously, wort boiling is one of the most expensive and time consuming parts of brewing, its really important to making good tasting consistent beer. Brewing on or leaving the wort in contact with break material isn't going to help you make better beer. Getting the wort off the break takes a few minutes (No-Chill) and you get better beer.

Cold Break is another matter, its been talked to death over the years , it isn't a matter of major concern but some people see reducing it as being beneficial, no-chill make this easy, as would doing a cone dump 24 hours (or so) into the ferment in a CCV (conical).
Mark


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## Sjek (5/10/20)

Thank you Mark, very interesting.

Pardon my ignorance, but it’s still not clear how hot break is removed when people do no chill brewing. It ends up in the trub after brewing doesn’t it? And from what I’ve seen most no chill people go straight from boil into the cube and don’t siphon out of their cube into the fermenter.


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## mje1980 (5/10/20)

Whirlpool and/or wait 15mins.


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## GrumpyPaul (5/10/20)

Sjek said:


> Thank you Mark, very interesting.
> 
> Pardon my ignorance, but it’s still not clear how hot break is removed when people do no chill brewing. It ends up in the trub after brewing doesn’t it? And from what I’ve seen most no chill people go straight from boil into the cube and don’t siphon out of their cube into the fermenter.



I'm no technical expert - so cant offer up an awesome scienc-ey answer like @MHB can..

But my no chill process involves letting the kettle sit and the hot break, hop matter etc settle. 

Watch the kettle as it sits after the boil is over - you can see the thermal currents moving stuff around (it quiet mesmerising to watch). I try to let it sit until that movement has stopped, or at least mostly stopped. 

Then drain to the cube without disturbing the trub

You do however need to make sure it is still hot enough going into the cube to sterilise the cube - so don't let it sit and cool too long


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## Coalminer (5/10/20)

As above post #21
Whirlpool and wait 15-20min with the lid on (to minimise convection currents) keep lid on boiler till cube full
transfer to cube and leave the last 1-2 litres in the kettle
Good to budget for 22 litres in cube and 2 litres waste after boil


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## MHB (5/10/20)

Sjek said:


> Thank you Mark, very interesting.
> 
> Pardon my ignorance, but it’s still not clear how hot break is removed when people do no chill brewing. It ends up in the trub after brewing doesn’t it? And from what I’ve seen most no chill people go straight from boil into the cube and don’t siphon out of their cube into the fermenter.


Hope the posts above answer your question.
I'm brewing on a Braumeister (well 2 of them a 10L and a 200L), on the 10L at home there is about 1L of dead space under the tap, I just wait until all motion has stopped, run the wort into a cube leaving all the crud behind.
My "Cube" is a jerry type, if you pour carefully most of the cold break will stay in the cube, but as above a bit of cold break isn't an issue.
Truth is, a bit of hot break probably ends up in the fermenter no matter how careful we are, but there is a big difference between a bit and all of it. Do the best you can, don't be greedy, I would rather have 19L of good beer than 20L of so so beer.
Mark


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## fdsaasdf (5/10/20)

Sjek said:


> Thank you Mark, very interesting.
> 
> Pardon my ignorance, but it’s still not clear how hot break is removed when people do no chill brewing. It ends up in the trub after brewing doesn’t it? And from what I’ve seen most no chill people go straight from boil into the cube and don’t siphon out of their cube into the fermenter.


Quite simply hot break is left in the kettle by selectively drawing the liquid wort from the vessel and leaving the trub behind. This is AG brewing 101.

Taps in kettles are very rarely level with the bottom so there is always some loss, potentially reduced by an attachment to lower the draw level or the kettle is tilted.

Some people use various screens and filters, or just draw the liquid from the side away from the trub cone left after whirlpooling.

Edit: beaten by the two above while I read the whole thread and missed the second page...


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## philrob (5/10/20)

The hot break is mostly left behind when the kettle is drained into the cube before "no chilling", surely?
No different to what I do, to my way of thinking. I don't "no chill", and use an immersion chiller in my kettle, then wait about 20 minutes after I remove the chiller and whirpool my wort. I drain, and leave all the crud behind. I think draining from the kettle to a "no chill" container would achieve much the same result?


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## Sjek (5/10/20)

Righto, thanks everyone. 

I just never considered it, I always chill and thought the no chillers just poored straight from the boil into cube. That’s how it always sounded to me when people talked about it.


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## mje1980 (5/10/20)

In a rush I’ve done that, straight into the cube after the boil. Resulting beer tasted fine but was hazy.


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## stevonz (6/10/20)

Sjek said:


> Thank you Mark, very interesting.
> 
> Pardon my ignorance, but it’s still not clear how hot break is removed when people do no chill brewing. It ends up in the trub after brewing doesn’t it?



Whirlpool at the end of the boil. Wait 10 mins & then transfer to cube... the hot break remains in the kettle.


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## grandadrob (7/10/20)

England calling.....I mash for 75 minutes at around 68 deg C then transfer the liquor to the boiler. As it heats up I scoop off the brown sludge. Once boiling I add hops in stages. At end of boil I leave for 2 hours then jug the wort into my FV's, 13 and 9 litre stainless steel pans with lids. I then cool these in a water bath. Then I add hydrated yeast.........
Why complicate a simple process ?


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## S.E (7/10/20)

grandadrob said:


> England calling.....I mash for 75 minutes at around 68 deg C then transfer the liquor to the boiler. As it heats up I scoop off the brown sludge. Once boiling I add hops in stages. At end of boil I leave for 2 hours then jug the wort into my FV's, 13 and 9 litre stainless steel pans with lids. I then cool these in a water bath. Then I add hydrated yeast.........
> Why complicate a simple process ?


The no chill in a cube method actually simplifies your method. After the boil let it settle 15-30 minutes depending on the shape and volume of your kettle. Then transfer to a cube, seal it and let it cool at ambient over night or in a bath or pool if you want to cool it quicker. The wort will then keep for months even years so you can add yeast at you convenience.

Not sure why you are getting brown sludge in you kettle is that with every brew? Do you recirculate the wort through the grain bed before transfer to the kettle?


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## Sjek (7/10/20)

S.E said:


> The no chill in a cube method actually simplifies your method. After the boil let it settle 15-30 minutes depending on the shape and volume of your kettle. Then transfer to a cube, seal it and let it cool at ambient over night or in a bath or pool if you want to cool it quicker. The wort will then keep for months even years so you can add yeast at you convenience.
> 
> Not sure why you are getting brown sludge in you kettle is that with every brew? Do you recirculate the wort through the grain bed before transfer to the kettle?



I think he's referring to the hot break when your wort reaches boiling.


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## Grmblz (7/10/20)

grandadrob said:


> England calling.....
> Why complicate a simple process ?


Welcome POM (I'm allowed to say that being a dualy) a couple of observations for ya.
Your process: 
aerates the wort, much discussion here on the advisability of doing that given the advances in dried yeast production techniques.
hydrates the yeast, much discussion here on the advisability of doing that given the advances in dried yeast production techniques.
involves lifting 25kg ish (23ltr wort) in and out of a water bath, not everyone (us old bastards) can do this easily if at all, and it's quite common here for people to do double batches, 65/70ltr single vessel brewing systems being quite common, so lifting 50+kg?
exposes the wort unnecessarily to infection, possibly not so much of an issue in temperate climates but a real issue in warmer climes.
there's more but others will chime in no doubt. 


@S.E. a pool? He's in the UK, so if he's got a pool it's indoors and heated, so he's a billionaire, and probably not homebrewing


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## kadmium (7/10/20)

grandadrob said:


> England calling.....I mash for 75 minutes at around 68 deg C then transfer the liquor to the boiler. As it heats up I scoop off the brown sludge. Once boiling I add hops in stages. At end of boil I leave for 2 hours then jug the wort into my FV's, 13 and 9 litre stainless steel pans with lids. I then cool these in a water bath. Then I add hydrated yeast.........
> Why complicate a simple process ?


Are you telling me you skim off the goo? I stir that stuff back in. Stirrer baby, not a skimmer!!!

Legit though, that's just hotbreak and there's always a debate on skim vs stir haha. 

Homebrew can be a simple process, or it can be a very complicated process. Like virtually anything worth doing. 

In the end I take enjoyment out of complicating it and obsessing over minute details, but then again that's just what I'm like. Plenty of people make good beer doing it basic, plenty of people make exceptional beer chasing the 1% and plenty of both make bad beer!


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## S.E (7/10/20)

Grmblz said:


> @S.E. a pool? He's in the UK, so if he's got a pool it's indoors and heated, so he's a billionaire, and probably not homebrewing


We had a pool in the UK. Pumped it up and left it outside all week for summer then packed it back in the shed the following week.


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## S.E (7/10/20)

Sjek said:


> I think he's referring to the hot break when your wort reaches boiling.


I’ve never had brown sludge hot break. At least not that I have ever noticed.


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## kadmium (7/10/20)

S.E said:


> I’ve never had brown sludge hot break. At least not that I have ever noticed.


High protein or and dark malts, when the hot break forms and you get the foam on top before the boil is what I believe he is referring to.


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## S.E (7/10/20)

kadmium said:


> High protein or and dark malts, when the hot break forms and you get the foam on top before the boil is what I believe he is referring to.


Perhaps it is but he said “As it heats up I scoop off the brown sludge” which sounded a bit strange to me.


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## MHB (7/10/20)

I remember asking a renowned brewing consultant this question.
His take was - there is a finite amount of head building ingredients in a beer, you don't want to remove any.
Not everything that forms foam early is good, but If its no good it winds up in the trub, if its good it stays in the beer and helps form head.
People who mill very fine and BIAB often see a lot more grey sludge on top as the wort heats, that is mostly Draff,
just fine malt powder, it to will end up in the trub.
Its all the stuff that I don't want in beer that does wind up in the bottom of the kettle that concerns me most about this notion of fermenting in the kettle.
Been thinking about how it could be done to what I regard as a professional standard and the answers I'm coming up with aren't either cheap nor easy to build. I'm also far from sure how well a CCV kettle would preform for that matter, a lot of brewers don't realise that the shape of a kettle and how the heat is applied can make really big differences to the beer you get out of your brewery.
Mark


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## S.E (7/10/20)

MHB said:


> People who mill very fine and BIAB often see a lot more grey sludge on top as the wort heats, that is mostly Draff


That’s what I was thinking and why I asked if the wort was being re circulated through the grain bed to filter it out. I haven’t brewed BIAB since about 1994 and always re circulate these days.


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## grandadrob (15/10/20)

It is hot break. 50 years brewing always hydrate Safale 04. Jug transfer to 13 L and 9 L FV's - cooled in the kitchen sink. Fermented in unheated garage but in the kitchen for the cold months.


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## DTee (16/10/20)

S.E said:


> That’s what I was thinking and why I asked if the wort was being re circulated through the grain bed to filter it out. I haven’t brewed BIAB since about 1994 and always re circulate these days.



You were doing BIAB in 1994?


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## S.E (16/10/20)

DTee said:


> You were doing BIAB in 1994?


Yes I was doing BIAB in the eighties and up to about 1994 when I left the UK. Actually I recall brewing all grain BIAB again around 2000-2001 when I returned but only a couple times as I wasn’t living near the LHBS in St Albans Hertfordshire that stocked grain and hops and where I had bought my first BIAB Electrim boiler and grain bag.

As it happens I was having a clear out last weekend and came across my old BIAB setup.


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## razz (16/10/20)

The Bucket of Death! I haven't seen one of those for a long time.


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## S.E (16/10/20)

razz said:


> The Bucket of Death! I haven't seen one of those for a long time.


Yep, didn’t they get that name after a bit of good old fashion AHB scaremongering? The element is exactly the same as those commonly used in plastic kitchen kettles but put one in a larger brewing kettle and you are somehow at risk of electrocution.


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## razz (16/10/20)

S.E said:


> Yep, didn’t they get that name after a bit of good old fashion AHB scaremongering? The element is exactly the same as those commonly used in plastic kitchen kettles but put one in a larger brewing kettle and you are somehow at risk of electrocution.


I had one for sparge water in the mid 90's. It came in very handy when we had no mains gas for two weeks in 1998 after the Longford gas plant blew up. It was the only way we had hot water to wash with.


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## DTee (16/10/20)

S.E said:


> Yes I was doing BIAB in the eighties and up to about 1994 when I left the UK. Actually I recall brewing all grain BIAB again around 2000-2001 when I returned but only a couple times as I wasn’t living near the LHBS in St Albans Hertfordshire that stocked grain and hops and where I had bought my first BIAB Electrim boiler and grain bag.


Thats awesome. Thanks for sharing the photos. I had no idea BIAB had been around so long. I only discovered BIAB about a 2006? through this forum.


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## S.E (16/10/20)

razz said:


> I had one for sparge water in the mid 90's. It came in very handy when we had no mains gas for two weeks in 1998 after the Longford gas plant blew up. It was the only way we had hot water to wash with.


Did you buy yours in Australia? I understood they were not available here.

I used mine as a make shift shower for a while when living in a caravan and renovating a derelict farm. We set it up in an old stable with no roof and took showers with rain and snow coming down on us through the rafters.


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## S.E (16/10/20)

DTee said:


> Thats awesome. Thanks for sharing the photos. I had no idea BIAB had been around so long. I only discovered BIAB about a 2006? through this forum.


Yep BIAB has been around for as long as homebrewing. I’m led to believe that it wasn’t as common here in AU and virtually unheard of by most AHB members in the early days of the forum so when they figured it out they thought they had invented a whole new brewing method and coined the phrase BIAB.


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