# Biab & Protein Rest & Powells Malts



## mikelinz (18/3/10)

Sorry if this has already been covered, did a search and didn't find anything. 

I purchased Ale, Pils and Wheat malt from Powells. When I picked it up it was recomended that I employ a protein rest. I assume by that they are saying that their malts are moderatly modified. 

So how do I do this using BIAB. Do I mash in at 45-50c for 15-30 min (as per palmer - how to brew) and then ramp up to my usual mash temp. 

I have noted that I need to aim for 68-70c for my system otherwise my wort is a bit too fermentable, lacking body. Would the less attenuated malt overcome this issue just by mashing at 66c? and what would be the effects on beer fermentability, clarity and head of not doing a protein rest. 

Obviously from my questions you can tell I have never done a protien rest and started all grain with BIAB. 

rgds mike


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## Fourstar (18/3/10)

mikelinz said:


> Sorry if this has already been covered, did a search and didn't find anything.
> 
> I purchased Ale, Pils and Wheat malt from Powells. When I picked it up it was recomended that I employ a protein rest. I assume by that they are saying that their malts are moderatly modified.
> 
> ...



do a 15 min protein rest at 55deg (to help retain medium chian proteins) as lower temps to break these down and degade body and head formation.

I'd mash in @ 55 and rest for 10, then crank on your burner/urn and let it get to your mash temp. Dont worry about the modification of the malt vs body too much. just do your standard mash temp and you should be fine.


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## zebba (18/3/10)

Fourstar said:


> I'd mash in @ 55 and rest for 10, then crank on your burner/urn and let it get to your mash temp. Dont worry about the modification of the malt vs body too much. just do your standard mash temp and you should be fine.


Bag out, or leave it in? I ask not for the safety of the bag (as things can be done to stop it burning), but more for the quality of the mash - I've heard (no quotes) that a large portion of the conversion happens early on, so once your burner/urn gets the pot to 60ish might it start converting and your desired 68 degree mash turns out as equivalent to a 65 degree one?

If that even makes sense...


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## Fourstar (18/3/10)

Zebba said:


> Bag out, or leave it in? I ask not for the safety of the bag (as things can be done to stop it burning), but more for the quality of the mash - I've heard (no quotes) that a large portion of the conversion happens early on, so once your burner/urn gets the pot to 60ish might it start converting and your desired 68 degree mash turns out as equivalent to a 65 degree one?
> 
> If that even makes sense...




commercial breweries almost always go through a temperature rise. Dont be too worried. after all it wont take 15 mins to get from 60-68. Unless your burner is a matchstick.


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## Bribie G (18/3/10)

I've only done one protein rest with BIAB in the Urn, when I did an all Bohemian Pilsener. I did the 55 degree rest but made the mash a bit thicker, hoisted the bag clear of the element, switched on and raised the temp for about 15 mins, lowered the bag and stirred like buggery then I had on hand a stockpot of just - boiled water so I could adjust the temperature accurately, and a stockpot of iced water in case I had overshot. By the seat of my pants got it up to 66. It was a pretty frantic five minutes or so, but I got there. Advantages of having a HERMS I suppose, but like all things BIAB once you've done it a couple of times then you're right. :icon_cheers:


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## raven19 (18/3/10)

I have used a fair bit of Powell's malt in many of my AG brews recently and have just gone with a single infusion. No protein rests and I also use 0.5kg of wheat in most brews.

Had great clarity in Smurt's landlord recently also.

I don't BIAB, but I guess with the urn it allows an easier ramping up of temps compared to an esky setup (decoction then required).

In saying the above 4* knows what he is talking about! :icon_cheers:


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## zebba (18/3/10)

Fourstar said:


> commercial breweries almost always go through a temperature rise. Dont be too worried. after all it wont take 15 mins to get from 60-68. Unless your burner is a matchstick.


Actually I asked because for one of my pots on the stovetop DOES take almost 15 minutes! Even then I guess, you get to know your brewery and you figure how to work around things like this. And I don't use that pot anymore. Upgrades are coming through almost weekly atm.


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## Fourstar (18/3/10)

Zebba said:


> Actually I asked because for one of my pots on the stovetop DOES take almost 15 minutes! Even then I guess, you get to know your brewery and you figure how to work around things like this. And I don't use that pot anymore. Upgrades are coming through almost weekly atm.




yeah, even still i wouldnt be too concerned. the amount of time it sits in the low end of b Amylase is negligible, especially considering the plan is 68 deg. heck, even go to 69-70 if you are really worried.


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## Nick JD (18/3/10)

Could this be a possibility for a BIAB protein rest?

Using a different mash tun, do your protein rest at 55C for the required time and only use _just _enough water to saturate the grain and break the proteins up.

Then, calculating the strike temperature of your normal mash tun to allow for the 55C grain and using a smaller amount of strike water - dump your protein rested grain bag into your strike water and let it do it's sac rest at exactly the correct temperature.

Nuts?


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## zebba (18/3/10)

Nick JD said:


> Could this be a possibility for a BIAB protein rest?
> 
> Using a different mash tun, do your protein rest at 55C for the required time and only use _just _enough water to saturate the grain and break the proteins up.
> 
> ...


I dunno if it's nuts but prior to this thread that is what I would have done. Assuming it is only a short rest you wouldn't need anything flash (i.e. a bucket would probably do)


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## Thirsty Boy (18/3/10)

Nick - thats a possibility. Its just an infusion step mash. Turned backwards like all BIAB is. Other brewing processes remove the liquid and leave the solid behind, BIAB removes the solids and leaves the liquid behind. Your suggestion is basically just going in reverse to get to the same location.

I think you would be better off with mashing in with a lower amount of liquid and dumping in a pot of boiling water - calculations done so you hit your correct temperatures. But there isn't any need, by virtual definition, in BIAB you have a direct fired mash tun.. so simply adding heat is the simplest way.

Turn burner/element on - stir - turn off when at appropriate temp.

For the record, I disagree with Fourstar about the temperature you should do your protein rest. 55 is a good temp when you are looking to just lightly enhance medium length proteins for a little head retention... something you would do in a fundamentally well modified malt. The assumption you are using with the Powels malt is that it is actually under modified; and IMO to compensate for that you would need a proper protein degrading rest at 50C.

To avoid over attenuation - I would look to split the difference on your time at lower temperatures. Do a short 50C rest - just 5 mins or so, then ramp up through to your normal mash temperature, but cut down the rest time at that temperature.

So you rest at 50 for 5 mins, you ramp for 15 mins - and you would have rested at say 68 for 60mins - I'd take that 20mins at the lower temps, divide by 2 (for ten minutes) and subtract it from your main mash time... so now its 5 - 15 - 50 - mash out.

You will need to do this every time you use this malt - so you will get a chance to tweak. If you are over attenuated a little, perhaps increase your main rest by a degree next time, or cut out an even greater proportion of the "extra" mash time. You will eventually arrive at a program that gives you what you are looking for.


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## Nick JD (18/3/10)

What are the advantages of using under-modified malts?


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## Fourstar (18/3/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> For the record, I disagree with Fourstar about the temperature you should do your protein rest. 55 is a good temp when you are looking to just lightly enhance medium length proteins for a little head retention... something you would do in a fundamentally well modified malt. The assumption you are using with the Powels malt is that it is actually under modified; and IMO to compensate for that you would need a proper protein degrading rest at 50C.




Yeah you are right, you need more short chain proteins. Would a protein rest starting at 45 and continuing through a ramp period to sacch temps be out of line? Say 1deg/min?


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## Thunus (18/3/10)

I have done a BIAB protien rest by mashing in with less than full water (As TB suggested) and used beersmith to calculate a volume of boiling water to lift mash to next temp (4.5 ltrs in my case) this works well as long as volumes are easily handled ie: any more than 5 litres and I would need to buy a new pot for the stove. Calculations from beer smith were spot on though. Not suprising as I guess it is just a step mash like 3 V's have done for years.

PS. Should add I haven't tried this beer yet, could taste like shit for all I know


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## mikelinz (18/3/10)

Thanks for all the feedback.

I have a 70L gas heated mash tun and a 30L HLT that sits above.

So I assume a quick way to do this would be to mash in with a standard 2.5L/KG of water to end up at protein rest temp. After the rest I could then add the final Vol of the water from my HLT adjusted to bring it up to mash temp and fine tune with the burner/cold water. Then just treat it as every other BIAB.

Any fishhooks???

Rgds mike


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## Thunus (18/3/10)

mikelinz said:


> Thanks for all the feedback.
> 
> I have a 70L gas heated mash tun and a 30L HLT that sits above.
> 
> ...



Sounds perfect. Just play around with the volumes in beer smith until you get the temps in a range that suits


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## QldKev (18/3/10)

Thunus said:


> Sounds perfect. Just play around with the volumes in beer smith until you get the temps in a range that suits




Thunus knows all about playing with things 


























ROFLMAO


QldKev


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## Wolfy (18/3/10)

mikelinz said:


> So I assume a quick way to do this would be to mash in with a standard 2.5L/KG of water to end up at protein rest temp. After the rest I could then add the final Vol of the water from my HLT adjusted to bring it up to mash temp and fine tune with the burner/cold water. Then just treat it as every other BIAB.
> 
> Any fishhooks???


If its the first time you've used it, you may also take and efficiency hit - something you may need to take into account with your recipe.
BIAB may help you in some regards, but don't be surprised if you're down on your efficency by quite a substantial amount.


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## Mantis (18/3/10)

Made one brew with Powells ale malt and mashed as normal. Got 75% eff. 
So this one must be modified well

spoellling


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## RdeVjun (18/3/10)

Thirsty Boy said:


> I think you would be better off with mashing in with a lower amount of liquid and dumping in a pot of boiling water - calculations done so you hit your correct temperatures.


This is quite an interesting and timely discussion (with the onset of slightly cooler weather everyone naturally thinks of lagers, but I started lager season early!  ). 

I have been protein resting pilsner malts and taking them up to saccharification and mashout via decoction, it is a bit rough and ready, invariably needing adjustment with a kettle of hot water so I usually start with a thicker mash to permit some fine tuning additions. Decoction smells rather nice though, the lagers are lagering and tasting allright so far.

But it got me to thinking, where some adjunct like polenta has been gelatinised (i.e. boiled), is this the increase from protein rest achievable with it? I.e. the polenta porridge doesn't need the protein rest but that heat could be useful? My read is that it doesn't need the protein rest like the malt does so could be useful (if made up to the right volume) as an equivalent to 5L of boiling to rapidly step from protein to saccharification. Up until now I've used it at mash- in but I'm thinking I'll use it differently in future if anyone is willing to confirm this. (Or not, and I'll just try it anyway!  )

Edit: Sorry, just so there's no ambiguity- I BIAB in a 19L stockpot. And loving it... :super:


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## zebba (19/3/10)

Nick JD said:


> What are the advantages of using under-modified malts?


As far as I can tell - price.

Checking G&G:
- Joe White Traditional Ale - $.00295/g (under 2kg)
- Powells Ale - $.00195/g (under 2kg)


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## hefevice (19/3/10)

Nick JD said:


> What are the advantages of using under-modified malts?



So sick bastards like me can do decoctions (which need to be boiled for a while) without worrying too much about denaturing medium chain proteins (thus messing up body and head retention) at the lower temp rests.

Of course the other way to compensate is to use a heap of wheat - which is just fine by me


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## Thirsty Boy (19/3/10)

Fourstar said:


> Yeah you are right, you need more short chain proteins. Would a protein rest starting at 45 and continuing through a ramp period to sacch temps be out of line? Say 1deg/min?



That'd work, but I was having a foot in both camps so to speak... Some Powels malts are a bit undermodified, but its not like they are all that bad.. so rather than go "all the way" with a P rest, I just went with a fast and dirty rest at 50.

In the case of undermodified malts - you aren't looking so much at what proteins you end up with, as what proteins you get rid of. If you are doing a P rest to fiddle with your head retention, you care about the proteins that come out of it being good for foam - but if you are doing a P rest to rectify undermodified malt, your main goal is to break down the storage matrix protien and access the starch - so all you want to do is smash em up. If there is enough of it in there you'll end up with plenty for your head retention anyway, unless you go silly with 30 min rests at 45 or something. 

Because with BIAB you have a larger volume to heat up, your ramps are fairly slow, even with direct fire 1C per minute is a fair call - so I consider ramps as part of the conversion period. Which I also do in my re-circulating system. BIAB also tends towards drier beers (IMHO) so I would take care with extended mash times especially as the OP stated he had issues with his beers being to dry already.





mikelinz said:


> Thanks for all the feedback.
> 
> So I assume a quick way to do this would be to mash in with a standard 2.5L/KG of water to end up at protein rest temp. After the rest I could then add the final Vol of the water from my HLT adjusted to bring it up to mash temp and fine tune with the burner/cold water. Then just treat it as every other BIAB.
> 
> ...



None that I can see. Stock standard step infusion method. Your volumes of water will be a bit higher because of the BIAB full volume thing... but thats just a matter of doing the maths.

Also see next answer



Wolfy said:


> If its the first time you've used it, you may also take and efficiency hit - something you may need to take into account with your recipe.
> BIAB may help you in some regards, but don't be surprised if you're down on your efficency by quite a substantial amount.



True - but thats part of what the P rest is for. If you do one, you access extra starch that you can miss out on in a normal mash, which is partly what effects your efficiency. The step mash gets you back (or should) a bit of what a single infusion masher would lose with this sort of malt. Doing the ramp by slowly heating it up and stirring constantly, will do an even better job - Make your step mash a decoction and you will completely compensate for it !!




Mantis said:


> Made one brew with Powells ale malt and mashed as normal. Got 75% eff.
> So this one must be modified well



They seem to be different for different malts. I understand the Pilsner is low on the modification scale and in my experience the Munich is too - but that some of their malts are fine. Case of asking the HBS for guidance I suppose.



RdeVjun said:


> This is quite an interesting and timely discussion (with the onset of slightly cooler weather everyone naturally thinks of lagers, but I started lager season early!  ).
> 
> I have been protein resting pilsner malts and taking them up to saccharification and mashout via decoction, it is a bit rough and ready, invariably needing adjustment with a kettle of hot water so I usually start with a thicker mash to permit some fine tuning additions. Decoction smells rather nice though, the lagers are lagering and tasting allright so far.
> 
> ...



RdeVjun - what you describe is a pretty much a classic cereal mash as practised by your big American brewers to deal with Maize and Rice adjuncts. Here's a snip from some IBD training material that give a quick look at a standardish process in a big adjunct brewery. There are of course lots of possible variations. Basically its just a decoction mash where the decoction is the cereal portion.

View attachment HIGH_TEMPERATURE_MASHING_OF_NON_GELATINISED_STARCH_______________________CEREAL.doc



TB


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## RdeVjun (19/3/10)

Many thanks TB and others, as per usual that's all excellent info and very helpful.

I was initially doing the maize thing because that's just what the original recipe had and it worked out fairly well, but it sounds to me that the gelatinised cereal would be quite useful and convenient in a couple of ways for indirectly- heated (well partially at least, only indirect after the bag goes into the kettle), step- mashed BIAB with the benefit of almost- instantaneous step up to saccharification, so without the long ramp time. Seems that if the masses are tweaked correctly there would be no need for direct heating of the mash tun with the bag in place (which is a PITA for many and I dislike doing it as it is difficult to distribute the heat uniformly). I'd probably skip the mashout in favour of a combined dunk sparge/ mashout, or perhaps as a mashout decoction and then dunk sparge, again though, not having to heat the kettle while it has a bag in it.
Anyway, next time I do that Munich Helles recipe of mine (the lager fridge is nearly finished lagering a few of batches), I'll give this a whirl, perhaps lending a little precision and repeatability, so thanks again!

Oh, sorry OPer for the hijack, hope this all helps though... :icon_cheers:


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## SpillsMostOfIt (19/3/10)

Mantis said:


> Made one brew with Powells ale malt and mashed as normal. Got 75% eff.
> So this one must be modified well
> 
> spoellling



I'm feeling somewhat agreeable and it is with this that I choose to agree...

I bought a bag each of Powell's Pilsner and Munich a little while ago - still got some of the Munich left and I think the under-modified thing might be a myth, or perhaps once the case, but not now. I could find no difference between it and my normal base malt (BB) in terms of the amount of sugar I got out of it.


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## Quintrex (19/3/10)

SpillsMostOfIt said:


> I'm feeling somewhat agreeable and it is with this that I choose to agree...
> 
> I bought a bag each of Powell's Pilsner and Munich a little while ago - still got some of the Munich left and I think the under-modified thing might be a myth, or perhaps once the case, but not now. I could find no difference between it and my normal base malt (BB) in terms of the amount of sugar I got out of it.



Powells pilsner afaik is the only malt they make that is under-modified, this is deliberate as they strive to emulate the "schedule" of traditional czech pilsner maltsters.

They've moved away from floor malting now, but apparently still do the occasional batch of floor malted pilsner for special orders


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## seemax (19/3/10)

I've tried powell's pilsner, ale and vienna.

Efficiency has been almost the same for all three with a single infusion mash.

Perhaps I could improve efficiency with a rest... but i find it easier and not prohibitively expensive to just use more grain.


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## mikelinz (19/3/10)

Zebba said:


> As far as I can tell - price.
> 
> Checking G&G:
> - Joe White Traditional Ale - $.00295/g (under 2kg)
> - Powells Ale - $.00195/g (under 2kg)



No specific advantage to under modified grain that I am aware of. A couple of potential disadvantages is lower efficiency or more work on brew day (eg Protein rest or decoction).

A couple of advantages of Powell's is $1.60 kg (PILS/Ale) $1.80 kg (Vienna/Munich) $2.00 (Caramalt/Wheat) and reports that it is a good tasting malt. (Based on their single bag price)

You also have to balance buying in bulk with the likelihood that you will use 25KG in a reasonable time, storage etc. They will sell smaller quantities of specialty malts. 

However I decided that i would buy my base malts in bulk and support my LHBS by buying the smaller quantities of specialty malts from them. I know they are there to make money but brewing would be much harder without them and and they do support a lot of clubs, comps and of course aussiehomebrewer.

rgds mike


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