# Wit Recipe Question



## DiscoStu (7/9/09)

Looking at doing a Wit in the next week or so, I was wondering should I be throwing in some rice hulls ? Does a large proportion of flaked wheat lead to stuck sparge like wheat malt ???

Recipe: Quick Wit
Brewer: Stuart
Style: Witbier
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L 
Boil Size: 28.29 L
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 6.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 16.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.80 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.Grain 50 % 
2.50 kg Wheat, Torrified (3.3 EBC) Grain 46 % 
0.30 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 4 % 
15.00 gm Northern Brewer [10.50 %] (60 min) Hops 16.4 IBU 
15.00 gm Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
40.00 gm Orange Peel, Fresh (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
1 Pkgs Belgian Witbier (Wyeast Labs #3944) [StartYeast-Wheat 


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 5.60 kg


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## raven19 (7/9/09)

Yes I would throw a handful or two in as you are around 50% wheat.

Beats the alternative of getting a stuck sparge!


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## Fourstar (7/9/09)

Flaked raw wheat or Torrified/puffed wheat? Totally different beasts.

Torrified wheat has been Steamed/puffed where as flaked is knurled/rolled raw wheat like rolled oats, it may be pre gelatinised (aynone with experience want to shed light on this)?

Personally, if its raw flaked wheat, incorporate a beta glucanase rest (45 deg for 20 mins) to reduce mash gumminess or protein rest @ 55deg for protien conversion to reduce haze and aid in head retention. Also add hulls if you are weary of stuck mashes. If its torrified, its safe to go a standard infusion.

Cheers


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## katzke (7/9/09)

I have done 2 BIABs with raw wheat. I say raw wheat because it is just that wheat seed for grinding your own flour. I added it to boiling hot water then ran it through a food mill (I do not have a grain mill) so that may have helped some.

If I were doing a traditional mash I think I would add the rice hulls for insurance. They will not hurt and may help.

As was pointed out what you say you are using and what is in the recipe are 2 different things. I know that not all programs have a good selection of wheat for Wits.

As a variation if you do not like the Belgian yeast try any of your favorite yeasts. The first one I brewed was US-05 and the second was S-04. Both had more character from the wheat and spice but my wife thinks the S-04 is better, it could be the hops. I did this because I do not care for Belgian yeast any longer. The books say the haze is from the yeast but I found both beers of equal color and US-05 is a clean clear yeast from my experience and S-04 is not a cloudy yeast either.


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## DiscoStu (7/9/09)

Fourstar said:


> Flaked raw wheat or Torrified/puffed wheat? Totally different beasts.
> Cheers



I'm still not sure which way to go on this, most Wit recipes I've seen use flaked but my LHBS only has torrified which he says is fine to use in place of flaked, either I order some flaked from Ross or just use the torrified

Does the flaked wheat give a beer more to style ??


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## warrenlw63 (7/9/09)

DiscoStu said:


> I'm still not sure which way to go on this, most Wit recipes I've seen use flaked but my LHBS only has torrified which he says is fine to use in place of flaked, either I order some flaked from Ross or just use the torrified
> 
> Does the flaked wheat give a beer more to style ??



Stu if you can get your hands on raw wheat I'd recommend it highly. I used it as per KoNG's advice and found it has produced my most authentic wit yet. The problem with the flaked, torrified & bourghul is they've all been pre-cooked to a degree and I reckon you can taste it (cooked cracker flavour) in the final product.

I found that raw wheat wasn't nearly as hard to handle as people lead you to believe. I just crushed mine twice in the mill. Once on the regular setting and then a second time on a finer (0.5mm) setting to make it look like a coarse flour. I found it gave me greater efficiency this way. You don't need to pre-cook because wheat gelatanizes around 64 degrees. So you can just add it to the mash. That said I used a protein rest.

Warren -


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## DiscoStu (7/9/09)

Thanks Warren, I think I'll order some Raw wheat this week then, I'll add a protein rest into the mash schedule as well just to be safe.

Cheers

Stu


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## warrenlw63 (7/9/09)

You won't be sorry Stu... It's sort of been a holy grail of mine for a while. Just wished I tried the raw stuff years ago and saved myself the hassle.  

Warren -


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## KoNG (7/9/09)

Stu, i would have to say definitely Raw Wheat for the most authentic results i've had.
pretty sure i've tried all the options out there, but all my wits are raw wheat now.
The grinder gets a bit of a work out, but other than that... no other mash issues. i don't need to use rice hulls. But i make sure that my 'mash out' is nice and high to help with the flow [i batch]

Raw wheat also adds a bit more freshness/tartness [i find]... which i really like. You don't get that from any of the other forms.

Oh and i can get really cheap raw wheat just up the road at the local [fruit/veg/everything] markets which helps.

KoNG


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## katzke (8/9/09)

KoNG said:


> Oh and i can get really cheap raw wheat just up the road at the local [fruit/veg/everything] markets which helps.
> 
> KoNG



Second the get your wheat from the grocery store. Never have been to Oz but I am sure you have the same setups that we have, stores that have a bulk food section or even that have bags of wheat berries (the word I was looking for last night) for people that grind their own flower. I am not sure it makes any difference what type of wheat it is (red, white, winter, spring) so just get what you can.

What you ran into is a common confusion about what a Wit is. Some people will tell you to just use wheat malt. A Wit needs raw wheat to be a Wit.

If you do not have a grain mill and get crushed grain let me know and I will go into what I do with more detail. You may also be able to find cracked wheat for bread making. Just make sure it does not have anything in it but wheat. Do not want any preservative to interfere with the yeast.


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## Fourstar (8/9/09)

DiscoStu said:


> I'm still not sure which way to go on this, most Wit recipes I've seen use flaked but my LHBS only has torrified which he says is fine to use in place of flaked, either I order some flaked from Ross or just use the torrified
> 
> Does the flaked wheat give a beer more to style ??



Flaked can give the perception of a sour/tartness which could be just a light lactic infection due to starch passing over due to non conversion and getting munched on

Purists say Flaked. if you can get it, use it. If you have access only to torrefied(like me), use torrefied. Ive madea wit with it and there where no issues with it. Only problem i had is i couldn't get my hands on a decent witbier liquid at the time so i ended up using t58 or k97 from memory. Either way the profile of the yeast was not tip top.


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## KoNG (8/9/09)

Fourstar said:


> Purists say Flaked. if you can get it, use it. If you have access only to torrefied(like me), use torrefied. Ive madea wit with it and there where no issues with it.



NO..... As discussed, WE say 'raw'
Bah


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## warrenlw63 (8/9/09)

Fourstar said:


> Purists



Define purist? :blink: For me that would probably be Hoegaarden and I'm fairly certain they use raw wheat.

Warren -


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## AndrewQLD (8/9/09)

Like Warren and Kong I made my Wits with flaked Wheat for a number of years, when I used raw wheat for the first time it was a revelation, totally different mouth feel and taste, I only use raw now, and as has been pointed out the gelatinization temp of wheat is around 64 so it's no more hassle to use than any other form of wheat.

Andrew
Edit: wheat gelatinizes at a temp range of 52 - 64, based on type of wheat, time to gelatinize is dependent on the granule size of the crushed wheat and the temperature as well


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## 3G (8/9/09)

I have always used raw wheat. the only dawn fall is its as hard a s hell to mill. I noticed Gaganis Bros (continental wholesaler) sells fresh cracked Australian wheat. Could be a good substitute.


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## sirotilc (8/9/09)

I don't have a mill or a LHBS with raw wheat, would there be any downside to the finished product if I used a food processor to crack the wheat? At least the local hippy supermarket sells organic raw wheat.


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## KoNG (8/9/09)

sirotilc said:


> I don't have a mill or a LHBS with raw wheat, would there be any downside to the finished product if I used a food processor to crack the wheat? At least the local hippy supermarket sells organic raw wheat.



Maybe just take the raw wheat to the LHBS when you go and buy your other grains and get them cracked..?

oh and.. welcome to team purists


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## 3G (8/9/09)

sirotilc said:


> I don't have a mill or a LHBS with raw wheat, would there be any downside to the finished product if I used a food processor to crack the wheat? At least the local hippy supermarket sells organic raw wheat.



That could work. The food processor will struggle so i would consider re hydrating the wheat prior to blendind it. There is no husk to worry about with raw wheat.


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## Fourstar (8/9/09)

Sorry see my post as quoted below:


Fourstar said:


> *Flaked raw wheat* or Torrified/puffed wheat? Totally different beasts.





KoNG said:


> NO..... As discussed, WE say 'raw'
> Bah



Yeah sorry guys, i didn't mean to confuse. By flaked i was meaning flaked/crushed raw wheat, 'flaked' is not always going to be raw as it may be pre-gelatinised like torrefied wheat and flaked rice. For some reason i never assoicate 'flaked' with 'precooked flaked' i always assume raw. Its probabaly because i 'flake' everything myself using raw ingredients anyway. e.g. broken rice and raw polenta/corn and then cook/gelatinise everything myself/incorporate rests as noted above.



warrenlw63 said:


> Define purist? :blink: For me that would probably be Hoegaarden and I'm fairly certain they use raw wheat.
> Warren -



Yeah, Witbier purists (Belgians) would traditionally brew witbier with raw wheat, not malted wheat which is a known misconception in the HB'ing community. I'm not saying that malted wheat will make a bad witbier, Infact ive consumed numerous glasses of one brewed with malted wheat here in Vietnam (at louisiane brewhouse). If wishing to follow traditional methods/ingredients you would opt for brewing with raw wheat before going for malted, thats all.

Cheers!


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## katzke (9/9/09)

sirotilc said:


> I don't have a mill or a LHBS with raw wheat, would there be any downside to the finished product if I used a food processor to crack the wheat? At least the local hippy supermarket sells organic raw wheat.



You can deal with the raw wheat but it is more work.

Can you get cracked wheat or some type of boxed cook-it-your-self wheat cereal? Cream of Wheat, wheatena (sp), or Farina come to mind. As long as it does not have goop or things like preservatives in it you should be fine. I looked at a box and it has wheat (farina) and wheat germ with some vitamins added to it.

I will use oatmeal or cooking oats as a substitute for flaked oats so I see no reason why a clean hot wheat cereal would not work.

If you have a food processor you could take the wheat berries and put them in a pot and add about the same amount of hot water as you would to cook rice and let it set till the wheat soaks up most of the water. Then mill or crush the wheat and mash away. I use a food mill like can be used for making sausage to grind my wheat this way. It makes a mess that you would not think would mash but it works fine for BIAB. It kind of comes out like chunky mashed potatoes in a way.

If you do not want to mess with trying to break the grain up and can not find any suitable substitute then I would go with what you can get from your brew shop. You can always try and substitute some flour for part of the wheat. But think that most flour has the vitamins that a cereal will have.


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## Wisey (10/9/09)

Give it a couple of months and we will be stripping this years wheat crop im not sure what they are paying but usually its around $250 /Tonne would be probably what they are paying for top quality.

On the flip side, would Durham wheat be ok to use (noodle wheat)? They make semaliner (spelling) from this

Cheers
Wisey


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## muckanic (11/9/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Define purist? :blink: For me that would probably be Hoegaarden and I'm fairly certain they use raw wheat.



Hoegaarden is a watered-down revival of a style that doesn't really exist anymore, a bit like porter. The original witbier was turbid mashed, sour, and consumed young from the barrel. Even worse, after Hoeg took off, others jumped on the bandwagon and perverted the style even more. For example, De Bocq's Blanche de Namur uses wheaten cornflour, which provides about as much character as rice. Huyghe's witbier uses some sort of orange flavouring which I personally don't mind, although it's about as authentic as home brewers adding lactic acid. Australia's very own Feral is as good as anyone else's IMHO.


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## muckanic (11/9/09)

Wisey said:


> On the flip side, would Durham wheat be ok to use (noodle wheat)? They make semaliner (spelling) from this



That's hard (ie, high protein) wheat, which could present lautering problems depending how you handle it.


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## DiscoStu (17/9/09)

Ok, went down to China Town today for a wander at lunch an found a stall in Paddy's Markets selling raw wheat for $2 a kilo, so I'm sorted and ready to brew this weekend (SWMBO depending  )

Any comments on mash schedule when using raw wheat, I was thinking

Protein Rest 50C for 30 mins
Sach Rest 66C for 60 mins

Then mashout


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## warrenlw63 (17/9/09)

That should be fine Stu. It's pretty similar to what I did.

Speaking from my mere one raw wheat's worth of experience I'd also suggest trying to crush the wheat as finely as you can. I'm guessing this will aid in gelatinsation and conversion.

What I did was run it through firstly at the same gap as the barley (around 1mm). Then I tightened the mill gap to 0.5mm and ran the wheat through a second time. If you don't have a motor on your mill (which I have) you may have to prepare yourself for a sore arm or smoking drill.

Warren -


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## hazard (26/9/09)

I'm making a wit this weekend and after reading this thread am going with raw wheat (have previously used torrified. I bought it crushed fron nLHBS so milling it is not a problem for me. Can someone tell me how much "a few handfulls" of rice hulls weigh? Do you throw them in the bottom of mash tun or mix them up in the grist? I got 2kg from LHBS and will be using it, last wit got a stuck sparge.

Recipe is:
Pils malt 2.5kg
Unmalted wheat 2.25kg
Oats 0.25kg
Hallertau 30g
Wyeast 3944


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## WitWonder (28/9/09)

muckanic said:


> For example, De Bocq's Blanche de Namur uses wheaten cornflour, which provides about as much character as rice.



Mmm, my personal favorite :icon_drool2: 




hazard said:


> I'm making a wit this weekend and after reading this thread am going with raw wheat (have previously used torrified. I bought it crushed fron nLHBS so milling it is not a problem for me. Can someone tell me how much "a few handfulls" of rice hulls weigh? Do you throw them in the bottom of mash tun or mix them up in the grist? I got 2kg from LHBS and will be using it, last wit got a stuck sparge.




Guess you have already made this, but just throw a few handfulls in with the mash and mix them in. As for how much they'd weigh, maybe 10g? You don't have to be scientific about it and given the fact they cost nothing and don't impart flavour to your beer, there's nothing to be gained by not using enough.


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## tdh (28/9/09)

But wheaten cornflour is wheat. Why should it have a character as lame as rice?

tdh



muckanic said:


> For example, De Bocq's Blanche de Namur uses wheaten cornflour, which provides about as much character as rice.


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## muckanic (28/9/09)

tdh said:


> But wheaten cornflour is wheat. Why should it have a character as lame as rice?



Because it's about as close to pure starch as it gets, ie, the processing discards the character.

Backtracking, another reason why Hoeg probably tastes little like the original is that they used to use unkilned malt.


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## tdh (28/9/09)

aaaaaaha


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## northwest9 (19/11/09)

*bump*

my old man will finish harvest today, and with about 1000 tonnes of wheat, i have abit of choice. I was convinced i couldnt use any of it until it was malted?

can someone clear this up for me? also, what type of wheat is better? high quality APH with min 13% protien, which gets the best price, or the lesser quality ASW with a protien of between 9 and 10%. but still with good full grains.

also, if i get it straight off the header, what do i need to do with it prior to brewing with it. it doesnt get much fresher than that


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## gap (19/11/09)

If you were wanting to brew a Belgian Wit you could use 30% to 50% raw wheat in it. 
The higher protein wheat would be the best. 

You could use say 40% Pilsener Malt
30% Malted Wheat
30% Raw Wheat

5 - 30 g of Bitter Dried Oracle Peel
5 - 30 g Crushed Corriander Seeds

Have a look for some recipes . Do not use a German Wheat Beer Yeast.


Regards

Graeme


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