# Force Carbing And Increased Bitterness.



## Truman42 (17/12/12)

(Not sure if this should be posted here or in Gear and Equipment so apologies in advance if it upsets anyone..You know who you are  )

Ive just recently filled my second keg. I added to much gas to it on day 1 (58 PSI because Im an idiot and was reading BAR instead of PSI) so left it for a couple of days and tried it today. Some bubbles and slight head but probably needs an extra day or two on the gas. 

But one thing I did notice was that this beer along with my first kegged beer seems very bitter. It wasn't this bitter coming out of the fermenter.

I'm using a CO2 fire extinguisher and the gas in it is possibly quite old. It ran out of service this year and needs to be re-stamped before I fill it up, so the gas has been in there since it was last tested and stamped. 

Not sure how long that would be but do they need re-stamping every 5 years or is it longer??

Anyway my question is can CO2 go off? Its just a gas so I'm thinking no but want to at least rule that out?

I've got some bottled so waiting for them to carb up so I can compare but when I tasted it out of the fermenter I was actually worried it wasn't bitter enough and I hadn't used enough hops.


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## slash22000 (17/12/12)

Carbonating a beverage produces carbonic acid. Overcarbonated beer will have a distinct "tartness" from excessive carbonic acid. I'd say 58 PSI for a few days is absolutely overcarbonated. I set my kegs to 30 PSI for 2 days and they come out almost perfectly carbonated.


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## Truman42 (17/12/12)

I didnt add 58PSi for a few days though. I hooked up the gas waited until it reached 58PSI (Well 40 BAR because I thought it was 40 PSI) and then disconnected the gas. After when I realised what I had done I bled off some gas and just left it for two days.

It still doesnt seem carbed up properly now, not many bubbles in the beer and very little head. But does taste very bitter. So its the carbonic acid thats causing this? The word "TARTNESS" is certainly a good description of how it tastes.


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## stux (17/12/12)

Truman said:


> I didnt add 58PSi for a few days though. I hooked up the gas waited until it reached 58PSI (Well 40 BAR because I thought it was 40 PSI) and then disconnected the gas. After when I realised what I had done I bled off some gas and just left it for two days.
> 
> It still doesnt seem carbed up properly now, not many bubbles in the beer and very little head. But does taste very bitter. So its the carbonic acid thats causing this? The word "TARTNESS" is certainly a good description of how it tastes.



I don't think its possible for C02 to go "off". Carbonic acid is often described as "carbonic bite"

I don't think the gas is the cause of your bitterness. But its also possible that lack of carbonation could cause excessive percieved bitterness.

I often find that brews need a week in the keg to come round... so carb it up properly, give it a week, and then see how you feel


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## billygoat (17/12/12)

Truman said:


> I didnt add 58PSi for a few days though. I hooked up the gas waited until it reached 58PSI (Well 40 BAR because I thought it was 40 PSI) and then disconnected the gas.



40 Bar is 580 PSI not 58 PSI.


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## Nick JD (17/12/12)

Please refer to my signature below.


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## GalBrew (17/12/12)

billygoat said:


> 40 Bar is 580 PSI not 58 PSI.



That's a lot of PSIs right there.....


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## stux (17/12/12)

billygoat said:


> 40 Bar is 580 PSI not 58 PSI.



4.0 Bar maybe?


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## Diesel80 (17/12/12)

1st week carbonic bite is most noticable. Disappears though. Beer will be fine.

Cheers
D80


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## Truman42 (17/12/12)

Yeh my bad, its 4 BAR not 40 BAR.

@Nick...I would if it wasnt so ******* bitter...LOL


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## Maheel (17/12/12)

i am bitter when i over carb a forced carb keg... very bitter 


best not speak to me in fact.....


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## Truman42 (17/12/12)

So all this talk of being able to keg a beer and be drinking it in a few days that Ive heard so much about, isn't quite true then??

Some of you must be getting kick backs from the HB shops to convince me to spend more money on kegging...  

Guess I'll just have to wait then. Thanks for the help and advice gents. :icon_cheers:


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## GalBrew (17/12/12)

Truman said:


> So all this talk of being able to keg a beer and be drinking it in a few days that Ive heard so much about, isn't quite true then??
> 
> Some of you must be getting kick backs from the HB shops to convince me to spend more money on kegging...
> 
> Guess I'll just have to wait then. Thanks for the help and advice gents. :icon_cheers:



You can drink it after 5 minutes of force carbing. It tastes better after a week or so, but you can drink it straight up.


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## Muscovy_333 (17/12/12)

Are you carbonating at constant 4 degrees Truman?
Temp fluctuations while carbing will mess with your bubbles


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## Truman42 (17/12/12)

Muscovy said:


> Are you carbonating at constant 4 degrees Truman?
> Temp fluctuations while carbing will mess with your bubbles



Ummm..Actually as per my other thread I went away for the weekend and the fridge was at -2C tonight when I got home. But I only added 58 PSI of gas at 4C on Friday and left it at that until tonight.

Ive put an STC1000 on the fridge to hold it at 4C until I can sort out the problem with the thermostat on the fridge.


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## Screwtop (17/12/12)

Truman said:


> So all this talk of being able to keg a beer and be drinking it in a few days that Ive heard so much about, isn't quite true then??
> 
> Some of you must be getting kick backs from the HB shops to convince me to spend more money on kegging...
> 
> Guess I'll just have to wait then. Thanks for the help and advice gents. :icon_cheers:




Efficiency???? End of sparge runnings gravity?? Lack of maltiness, tart astringent??

Screwy


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## dr K (17/12/12)

Just as turning your oven thermostat to 250C is not going to get your oven to 170C any quicker than just setting 170, beer is just not going to get carbonated quicker at a higher pressure, put simply its a function of temperature (colder more gas dissolves) and time. Sure you speed things up by rolling or shaking or rattling the keg but you should never increase the pressure above serving pressure at your serving temp.
RDWHAHB

K


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## browndog (17/12/12)

> So all this talk of being able to keg a beer and be drinking it in a few days that Ive heard so much about, isn't quite true then??



44psi or 3bar for 24hrs at 5C will give you a perfectly carbonated beer (not english)


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## browndog (17/12/12)

dr K said:


> Just as turning your oven thermostat to 250C is not going to get your oven to 170C any quicker than just setting 170, beer is just not going to get carbonated quicker at a higher pressure, put simply its a function of temperature (colder more gas dissolves) and time. Sure you speed things up by rolling or shaking or rattling the keg but you should never increase the pressure above serving pressure at your serving temp.
> RDWHAHB
> 
> K



What a load of rubbish Dr K.


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## Truman42 (17/12/12)

dr K said:


> Just as turning your oven thermostat to 250C is not going to get your oven to 170C any quicker than just setting 170, beer is just not going to get carbonated quicker at a higher pressure, put simply its a function of temperature (colder more gas dissolves) and time. Sure you speed things up by rolling or shaking or rattling the keg but you should never increase the pressure above serving pressure at your serving temp.
> RDWHAHB
> 
> K



I didn't mean to set it that high. It was an accident because I read the gauge wrong. I was supposed to add 40 PSI disconnect and leave for 24 hours then add another 40 PSI disconnect and leave for another 24 hours then check on day 3 and top up to serve pressure if required. But I read the gauge wrong..


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## dr K (17/12/12)

> What a load of rubbish Dr K.


You may well be correct browndog, but having re-read my post , on the whole I find, to my understanding no factual error, of course as my father often pointed out a fact is a small thing on the back of a flea.
I am always willing to learn so..for the benefit of the readers, you might point out the particular rubbish that makes (or made) up my load.

K


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## Liam_snorkel (17/12/12)

dr K said:


> but you should never increase the pressure above serving pressure at your serving temp



Lies!
I force carbed a keg at 300kPa this afternoon and was pouring it at 70kPa 15 mins later. Why shouldn't I have done that?


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## Florian (17/12/12)

dr K said:


> Just as turning your oven thermostat to 250C is not going to get your oven to 170C any quicker than just setting 170, beer is just not going to get carbonated quicker at a higher pressure, put simply its a function of temperature (colder more gas dissolves) and time. Sure you speed things up by rolling or shaking or rattling the keg but you should never increase the pressure above serving pressure at your serving temp.
> RDWHAHB
> 
> K



So you're saying that when i have two kegs of flat beer sitting at 3 degrees, hook one up to a reg at 80 kpa and the other to a separate reg at 300 kpa then both beers will reach a pressure of 80 kpa at the same time?

i would have thought that this is in fact different to an oven thermostat, so the keg being charged at 300 kpa reaches 80 kpa much quicker, like adding another heating element to one of the ovens instead of just setting the dial to 250 degrees.

please correct me if i'm wrong.


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## Nick JD (17/12/12)

If there was a prize for over-complicating shit and then being vocal about the resulting failure, you'd be on the top of the podium, Truman. 

Just do it like everyone else does it. FFS.


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## dr K (17/12/12)

> Lies!
> I force carbed a keg at 300kPa this afternoon and was pouring it at 70kPa 15 mins later. Why shouldn't I have done that?


No reason why you should not have done so, and of course you did. The more inquisitive reader might ask how you read the equivalent pressure from carbonation in your glass...
K


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## browndog (17/12/12)

As florian has stated, pressure does affect the time at a constant temperature , but the statement " you should never increase the pressure above the serving the serving pressure at your serving temp" is a bit strange, what will force carbonating do to the beer that carbonating at serving pressure won't?

-browndog


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## dr K (17/12/12)

> So you're saying that when i have two kegs of flat beer sitting at 3 degrees, hook one up to a reg at 80 kpa and the other to a separate reg at 300 kpa then both beers will reach a pressure of 80 kpa at the same time?
> 
> i would have thought that this is in fact different to an oven thermostat, so the keg being charged at 300 kpa reaches 80 kpa much quicker, like adding another heating element to one of the ovens instead of just setting the dial to 250 degrees.
> 
> please correct me if i'm wrong.


To the first question....yes (of course the keg at 300 will have pressure in it, as it would were it void of beer)
To the following (from the question) statement....heat is somewhat different from pressure


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## Thirsty Boy (18/12/12)

dr K said:


> . . .
> I am always willing to learn so..for the benefit of the readers, you might point out the particular rubbish that makes (or made) up my load.



:icon_offtopic: Or nearly so anyway. At least it contributes very little to the original question.

Dr K

Snipped from IBD material on gas transfer into beer - you might note that the rate of transfer of gas into liquid depends on an equation that has the equilibrium concentration on its top line. The equilibrium concentration is higher for a given temperature, at a higher headspace/gas pressure. So - the higher the pressure, the bigger the difference between the current concentration of CO2 in solution and the equilibrium concentration and therefore the higher the rate at which CO2 will go into solution. ie: Increasing the pressure _will_ speed up carbonation.

And therein lies your load - unless its just me adding my load, in which case I have no doubt some kind soul will point that out too and we'll both be unburdened.



The Institute of Brewing and Distilling said:


> *Transfer of Gases into Solution*
> 
> As seen previously, Dalton’s Law describes how, under equilibrium conditions,
> a gas will exert a partial pressure above the liquid proportional to its molar
> ...


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

Nick JD said:


> If there was a prize for over-complicating shit and then being vocal about the resulting failure, you'd be on the top of the podium, Truman.
> 
> Just do it like everyone else does it. FFS.



I havent overcomplicated anything Nick. My original question was just simply does force carbing cause bitterness? It appears due to carbonic acid it does. It just happens that I made an error in force carbing which probably made things worse by reading the gauge wrong.

As for my force cabing method it was shown to me by a very experienced home brewer from here and works well. No different to what a lot of other Hbers on here do.

Add 300kpa to keg on day 1 and disconnect gas. Do the same 24 hours later, leave for a couple of days and check gas in keg and if below 100kpa add another 300kpa and disconnect gas. I cant leave my gas connected all the time as I dont have a hole through my fridge yet for the gas line. 

Whats so over complicated about that???


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## Liam_snorkel (18/12/12)

I'm not convinced that the increased bitterness that you tasted is from your method of carbing - more I think it's just because your beer was "green" (as stux mentioned before)

.


Truman said:


> It still doesnt seem carbed up properly now, not many bubbles in the beer and very little head. But does taste very bitter. So its the carbonic acid thats causing this? The word "TARTNESS" is certainly a good description of how it tastes.



You really need to have over carbed your beer to get noticeable carbonic bite, and believe me you'll know when you've done that.


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

Liam_snorkel said:


> I'm not convinced that the increased bitterness that you tasted is from your method of carbing - more I think it's just because your beer was "green" (as stux mentioned before)
> 
> .
> 
> You really need to have over carbed your beer to get noticeable carbonic bite, and believe me you'll know when you've done that.



Yeh well as I said there isnt much Co2 in the beer and a weak head so thats possible. Will just have to wait and see how it tatses in a week.


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## Screwtop (18/12/12)

Truy originally asked if forced carbonation may have caused additional bitterness in his beer.



Liam_snorkel said:


> I'm not convinced that the increased bitterness that you tasted is from your method of carbing - more I think it's just because your beer was "green" (as stux mentioned before)



Ditto, while carbonic acid (H2CO3) concentration does alter mouthfeel and add a slight carbonic bite or sourness to beer. The method of dissolving Co2 has no influence that I have noticed. As for overcarbonation, have done this many times and never noticed a greater influence due to carbonic acid. 

Green beer.....maybe
Infection.........maybe
Astringency........maybe
Overcarbonation.............meeeh! 

Screwy


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

Screwtop said:


> Truy originally asked if forced carbonation may have caused additional bitterness in his beer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Screwy, hopefully its green beer. Doesnt smell funny so I hope its not infection. I did get some small particles of grain through the false bottom and into the kettle at mash out but only a small amount, hopefully not enough to cause any astringency. This was a pale ale so no dark grains used.


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## Nick JD (18/12/12)

Truman said:


> I cant leave my gas connected all the time as I dont have a hole through my fridge yet for the gas line.



You leave your fridge open while force carbing? Does the keg warm up at all?


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## HBHB (18/12/12)

Dare i be an idiot and ask what the style and IBU's of the beer was itended to be, or what type of hops were used in the beer?

How old is the beer? ie how many days out of secondary?

Also, were the hops of the same AA as your recipe was designed around or were the scales even accurate? Were the timing of each addition during the boil done at the right time as per the recipe. 

A post mortem isn't always needed for a sore toe.

Also Truman, you can always stick the gas bottle into the fridge. Then it can stay connected.

It's always good to read the variations on how things are done on here, it's just a shame not all of the blokes respect the fact that there's more than 1 way to skin a cat and that their way is the only way.

For me, i stick most of my beers in the keg, purge a few times at 10psi (roughly 70kpa) whack it in the fridge and revisit it a month later when it's conditioned well and gassed right. Before the 4 week mark, i'd rather not bother and just drink something else. About the only exceptions are some of the wheat beers - where younger is generally better.

Just my unqualified opinions.

Martin


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

HBHB said:


> Dare i be an idiot and ask what the style and IBU's of the beer was itended to be, or what type of hops were used in the beer?
> 
> How old is the beer? ie how many days out of secondary?
> 
> ...



The style was a Pale Ale (The parched as bro pale ale from the recipe data base.) The Ibus were 30 and I used brewmate to get the IBUs correct as per my AA etc. if anything I was under 30 as I was 4 grams short of Galaxy which was the only hops used in the brew.
I cant put the gas bottle in the fridge as its a CO2 fire extinguisher that I have mounted upside down on the side of the fridge.

@Nick....Im going to assume your shit stiring as I know your not an idiot to ask such a dumb question..or are you???


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## stux (18/12/12)

dr K said:


> Just as turning your oven thermostat to 250C is not going to get your oven to 170C any quicker than just setting 170, beer is just not going to get carbonated quicker at a higher pressure, put simply its a function of temperature (colder more gas dissolves) and time. Sure you speed things up by rolling or shaking or rattling the keg but you should never increase the pressure above serving pressure at your serving temp.
> RDWHAHB
> 
> K



That's nonsense. 

Turning your regulator up to 450kpa will carbonate your beer in 12 hrs. The problem is it'll probably over carb it. 

carbonation is a function of pressure over time at a given temperature. 

Edit: and TB has quite helpfully provided the function. Sweet 

Your analogy is quite simply, wrong


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## Diesel80 (18/12/12)

Truman,

i have made 2 beers with galaxy now and to my tastes, they are almost undrinkable week #1 and 2 in the keg. I am not sure how many grams in the receipe you used. Bitter passionfruit is all i can taste. A few weeks in the keg is more to my taste. 
Others i gave my beer to were having no problems with it, but to me it was super bitter/sour/overpowering.

3 weeks in an i was able to enjoy it, probably after it stales somewhat 
Perhaps this is a factor too?

Cheers,
D80


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

Diesel80 said:


> Truman,
> 
> i have made 2 beers with galaxy now and to my tastes, they are almost undrinkable week #1 and 2 in the keg. I am not sure how many grams in the receipe you used. Bitter passionfruit is all i can taste. A few weeks in the keg is more to my taste.
> Others i gave my beer to were having no problems with it, but to me it was super bitter/sour/overpowering.
> ...



Diesel,

I know what your saying about Galaxy as Ive done a few brews using galaxy as well and in the bottle have had to wait 3-4 weeks for it to get better. But this bitter taste was not what I usually associate with galaxy. More like a tartness and similar to when you taste hot wort and its still very bitter. Ive never kegged a galaxy brew though, spose I will just have to give it some time.

Cheers


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## GalBrew (18/12/12)

Truman said:


> Diesel,
> 
> I know what your saying about Galaxy as Ive done a few brews using galaxy as well and in the bottle have had to wait 3-4 weeks for it to get better. But this bitter taste was not what I usually associate with galaxy. More like a tartness and similar to when you taste hot wort and its still very bitter. Ive never kegged a galaxy brew though, spose I will just have to give it some time.
> 
> Cheers



Well on the bright side (pun intended) you won't have to wait as long with a kegged beer compared to a bottled beer.....


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## QldKev (18/12/12)

Screwtop said:


> Efficiency???? End of sparge runnings gravity?? Lack of maltiness, tart astringent??
> 
> Screwy






Screwtop said:


> Truy originally asked if forced carbonation may have caused additional bitterness in his beer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Funny thing is these were also running through my mind too. Truman you have had other beers ending up way too bitter. 

But I do find carbonic bite pretty strong, I have a keg of rain water that's left at beer serving pressure (hooked in with beer kegs). Anyone who has tried it asks what has been added to the water. 

QldKev


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

QldKev said:


> Funny thing is these were also running through my mind too. Truman you have had other beers ending up way too bitter.
> 
> But I do find carbonic bite pretty strong, I have a keg of rain water that's left at beer serving pressure (hooked in with beer kegs). Anyone who has tried it asks what has been added to the water.
> 
> QldKev



Yes I have Kev. My first kegged beer the Epic pale Ale clone was also very bitter hence why I asked if it had anything to do with the CO2 in my original post. It didnt improve though and was quite bitter even 4 weeks later.

But it did have a malt backbone which helped offset the bitterness a bit. This brew doesnt. And yes that sort of soda water taste is another way to describe it.


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## CosmicBertie (18/12/12)

Truman said:


> Yes I have Kev. My first kegged beer the Epic pale Ale clone was also very bitter hence why I asked if it had anything to do with the CO2 in my original post. It didnt improve though and was quite bitter even 4 weeks later.
> 
> But it did have a malt backbone which helped offset the bitterness a bit. This brew doesnt. And yes that sort of soda water taste is another way to describe it.




Are you sure its not just your brewing process? I had to change my brewing method because my beers were too bitter. Now I put my hops in a hop sock and i remove them at the end of the boil, instead of leaving them in whilst chilling. Now my beers are spot on.

Also, what temperature did you sample your beer at? Different temperatures can affect the perceived bitterness.

You'd know if your beer was over-carbonated though it foams like bubble bath


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

Cosmic Bertie said:


> Are you sure its not just your brewing process? I had to change my brewing method because my beers were too bitter. Now I put my hops in a hop sock and i remove them at the end of the boil, instead of leaving them in whilst chilling. Now my beers are spot on.
> 
> Also, what temperature did you sample your beer at? Different temperatures can affect the perceived bitterness.
> 
> You'd know if your beer was over-carbonated though it foams like bubble bath



I always use a hopspider and remove it at end of boil. Because my last brew seemed overly bitter I made sure the IBUs in the recipe were lower than the recipes of 30. I was short on hops anyway so I think my IBUs came out to around 26 anyway. 
Ive only had this problem since force carbing in kegs which this is my second one. It will be interesting to compare this with the bottled ones when they are ready. This beer wasnt overcarbonated, only slight head and not many bubbles. 

But you raise an interesting point about perceived bitterness and temperature. Because my fridge was playing up with the thermo stuck the fridge temp was -2C all weekend (I went away so didnt know until I got back Monday night)
so perhaps thats why it seemed very bitter as the beer was probably close to 0C or below. Will sample again tonight now that Ive fixed the fridge and its holding well at 4C.

Cheers.


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## pcmfisher (18/12/12)

Its the Galaxy.
I have done various brews bittered with Galaxy and they all have a bad lingering resinous bitterness. Even at 30 IBU.
I won't be using it again.

Shit hop for bittering if you ask me.


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## GalBrew (18/12/12)

pcmfisher said:


> Its the Galaxy.
> I have done various brews bittered with Galaxy and they all have a bad lingering resinous bitterness. Even at 30 IBU.
> I won't be using it again.
> 
> Shit hop for bittering if you ask me.



That's a good point, @60min galaxy can have quite a harsh edge to it.


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## Nick JD (18/12/12)

Truman said:


> The style was a Pale Ale (The parched as bro pale ale from the recipe data base.) The Ibus were 30 and I used brewmate to get the IBUs correct as per my AA etc. if anything I was under 30 as I was 4 grams short of Galaxy which was the only hops used in the brew.
> I cant put the gas bottle in the fridge as its a CO2 fire extinguisher that I have mounted upside down on the side of the fridge.
> 
> @Nick....Im going to assume your shit stiring as I know your not an idiot to ask such a dumb question..or are you???



If the bottle is outside of the fridge, and you haven't got a hole in the fridge, how do you get the gas line in the fridge? Genuine question.

You'll know when I'm shit stirring - I'll start a thread and not give the recipe until the 3rd page. 

Galaxy at 60 minutes is HARSH.


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## NewtownClown (18/12/12)

Nick JD said:


> If the bottle is outside of the fridge, and you haven't got a hole in the fridge, how do you get the gas line in the fridge? Genuine question.
> 
> You'll know when I'm shit stirring - I'll start a thread and not give the recipe until the 3rd page.
> 
> Galaxy at 60 minutes is HARSH.


 Took me a while to figure out he is opening the door, putting a burst of C02 in the keg then disconnecting the gas...
I think :blink:


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

Nick JD said:


> If the bottle is outside of the fridge, and you haven't got a hole in the fridge, how do you get the gas line in the fridge? Genuine question.
> 
> You'll know when I'm shit stirring - I'll start a thread and not give the recipe until the 3rd page.
> 
> Galaxy at 60 minutes is HARSH.



I open the fridge. Connect the gas and squirt some in then bleed off the air. Then fill keg to 38 psi/300 kpa and disconnect the gas close the fridge and leave it for 24 hours. Repeat on day two, then check on day four and repeat if required. Otherwise drop to 12 psi for serving. After a serving session I add 12 psi and leave for next time. I don't leave the gas connected as I can't shut the fridge door. 

It works for me. 

I'm still not convinced its the Galaxy. I've brewed with Galaxy a number of times before and it was a different taste to this. 
My first keg had the same bitter taste and had no galaxy in it at all.


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## glenwal (18/12/12)

Why not just follow the Ross Method and be done with it in 15 mins. Constantly connecting/disconnecting gas and checking pressures and fiddling with the reg over several days seems like an awful lot of effort.


Disclaimer: I don't use the Ross Method, i carb at serving pressure, but that's obviously not going to work if you can't run the gas in the fridge.


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## GalBrew (18/12/12)

I do use the Ross method and it is literally done in 15min. It sounds like you are making it hard for yourself. If you don't want to 'Ross' get a proper CO2 bottle and shove it in your keg fridge so you can keep the keg connected.


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

NewtownClown said:


> Took me a while to figure out he is opening the door, putting a burst of C02 in the keg then disconnecting the gas...
> I think :blink:


Sorry I thought I made that clear in post 3 and 20 where I said I gas the keg to 300 kpa then DISCONNECT THE GAS. 
My bad.  

I could use the Ross method but the beers going to be too green anyway. 
The method I use is easy enough for me. Takes 10 seconds to connect up the gas fill the keg to 300 kpa and leave for 24 hours.


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## Liam_snorkel (18/12/12)

Or drill a hole in the fridge for the gas line.


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## GalBrew (18/12/12)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Or drill a hole in the fridge for the gas line.



You can get JG plastic bulkheads to put through your fridge wall or a double ended chrome plated shank.


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## chunckious (18/12/12)

Truman said:


> Sorry I thought I made that clear in post 3 and 20 where I said I gas the keg to 300 kpa then DISCONNECT THE GAS.
> My bad.
> 
> I could use the Ross method but the beers going to be too green anyway.
> The method I use is easy enough for me. Takes 10 seconds to connect up the gas fill the keg to 300 kpa and leave for 24 hours.



Ross has said that if the beer isnt in the ball park pretty much straight away there are processes in your brewing to look at. Yes the beer smooths out over the coming days but shoudn't be to the point of undrinkable greeness for 2 weeks in the keg.


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

Liam_snorkel said:


> Or drill a hole in the fridge for the gas line.



Its on my to do list. I only got this fridge a few weeks back and so far have only managed to remove the door lining and replace with white masonite so I can fit two kegs in and a 9 litre.

My wifes ex husband is giving me a 450 litre fridge freezer in a month (Im glad we have always got along) so will probably use this instead. Which is why Ive been reluctant to do anymore work on this one just yet until i work out whats its plan will be.


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## tbetland (18/12/12)

This might seem like a dumb question but you don't NoChill by any chance.


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

tbetland said:


> This might seem like a dumb question but you don't NoChill by any chance.



No mate I have a plate chiller. But before I did chill I ticked the no chill box in brewmate.


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## Wolfman (18/12/12)

You could naturally carb the beer, leave for a week, put it in the fridge, wait 24 hours and drink at serving pressure.

Thats what i do now. Never have an under or over carbed beer.


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

Well what a difference a day makes and about 5C temp difference. Now that I've fixed my fridge and its held temps at 4C without running flat out and getting the fridge temp down to -2C, I came home tonight and tried another sample of this beer. While it was still quite sharp on the tongue, it was nowhere near as bitter as it was yesterday. 

Even the usual Galaxy flavours usually present aren't as bad as I've tasted before. 

Its still not carbed up as you can see from the photo but I actually enjoyed drinking this especially as it warmed a bit more in the glass. Cosmic Berties comments about lower temperatures increasing perceived bitterness seem to be what the problem was here.

Thanks once again to everyone that provided suggestions and advice. Much appreciated and I certainly learnt a lot


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## drsmurto (18/12/12)

Why not put the gas bottle in the fridge and leave it connected to the keg at pouring pressure?

Carbing kegs doesn't need to be rocket science, or another 3 page thread.

EDIT - 4 page thread now, my bad.


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## Ross (18/12/12)

Putting 300kpa on top of a full keg of beer & then disconnecting the gas & leaving overnight is going to take an eternity to carbonate to the correct level.
Gassing a keg is not rocket science. Truman, give me a call in the shop & I'll give you a quick education in carbonating beer. 07 3823 5252.

As for the beer tasting tasting too bitter from carbonating - Absolutely no difference bottle carbonating to keg carbonating (assuming gassed to same level), so look for other reasons, of which there are many.

cheers Ross

Edit: LOL - DrS beat me too it


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## Rowy (18/12/12)

Ross said:


> Putting 300kpa on top of a full keg of beer & then disconnecting the gas & leaving overnight is going to take an eternity to carbonate to the correct level.
> Gassing a keg is not rocket science. Truman, give me a call in the shop & I'll give you a quick education in carbonating beer. 07 3823 5252.
> 
> As for the beer tasting tasting too bitter from carbonating - Absolutely no difference bottle carbonating to keg carbonating (assuming gassed to same level), so look for other reasons, of which there are many.
> ...



Ross what if I put it on at 301kpa? Would it carb quicker or would the difference be neglegible? If the wind is blowing from the East I am advised by Florian that this also makes a difference (who can trust those Germans though <_< ). Winkle assures me he cannot get that old bitter fart smell he so likes in his belgians if he carbs on a full moon.......it is a difficult topic Ross and you should not go around oversimplifying it. Also those hops you've got on special this week are great! You can't go past all the Americans in stock at $4.00 for 90gms. Well done mate.


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Why not put the gas bottle in the fridge and leave it connected to the keg at pouring pressure?
> 
> Carbing kegs doesn't need to be rocket science, or another 3 page thread.
> 
> EDIT - 4 page thread now, my bad.



As I mentioned somewhere back in these posts I use a fire extinguisher mounted upside down to the side of my fridge so can't put it into the fridge. Also just to add I never started this thread asking how to carb kegs. It was more about CO2 and bitterness and if CO2 can go off after many years sitting around. 

@Ross...thanks for the offer but the method I used was suggested to me by a longtime brewer and member of this forum. It works for him and it works for me. It only takes 3-4 days and its carbed up. (When I don't stuff up and do it wrong)
It's not that difficult to connect the gas and charge to 400 kpa then disconnect, over 2-3 days. And by day 4 its good to go. 
I went away this weekend so couldn't do it how I normally would. Once I get my other fridge setup or drill a hole in this one for the gas I will just keep the gas on at serving pressure until its done.


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## chunckious (18/12/12)

Truman said:


> As I mentioned somewhere back in these posts I use a fire extinguisher mounted upside down to the side of my fridge so can't put it into the fridge. Also just to add I never started this thread asking how to carb kegs. It was more about CO2 and bitterness and if CO2 can go off after many years sitting around.
> 
> @Ross...thanks for the offer but the method I used was suggested to me by a longtime brewer and member of this forum. It works for him and it works for me. It only takes 3-4 days and its carbed up. (When I don't stuff up and do it wrong)
> It's not that difficult to connect the gas and charge to 400 kpa then disconnect, over 2-3 days. And by day 4 its good to go.
> I went away this weekend so couldn't do it how I normally would. Once I get my other fridge setup or drill a hole in this one for the gas I will just keep the gas on at serving pressure until its done.



While only on my 2nd keg carb, I see want Ross is saying. There is a big difference between a carbed up beer and a beer that tastes like Fermenter Vessel sample with a head on top. (ie a green tasting beer). I'm now looking for carbonation in the beer rather that on top. 2c


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## pk.sax (18/12/12)

T, not everything said and done by everyone is gospel. Some is better than others' though. Do what works for you. And ffs, have a beer.


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

practicalfool said:


> T, not everything said and done by everyone is gospel. Some is better than others' though. Do what works for you. And ffs, have a beer.



Cheers mate. Very good advice.


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## browndog (18/12/12)

> As I mentioned somewhere back in these posts I use a fire extinguisher mounted upside down to the side of my fridge so can't put it into the fridge. Also just to add I never started this thread asking how to carb kegs



At risk of being a bit pedantic you did say earlier



> So all this talk of being able to keg a beer and be drinking it in a few days that Ive heard so much about, isn't quite true then]



So why would you not expect people to start giving you advice that you can carb in 24hrs or less?


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## Nick JD (18/12/12)

That's it, the kitty gets it.


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## Truman42 (18/12/12)

browndog said:


> At risk of being a bit pedantic you did say earlier
> 
> 
> 
> So why would you not expect people to start giving you advice that you can carb in 24hrs or less?


Umm...Because I was joking. Being facetious in reference to Diesel80,s post where he said carbonic bitterness takes about a week to dissipate. You didn't see the smiley at the end of the post??
I know you can carb up a keg in 24 hours or less. 
But doesn't mean it's going to be drinkable for many reasons including carbonic bitterness which I've learnt about through this thread, among other things, from those who read posts and provide good advice and suggestions.


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## Cocko (19/12/12)

Come on guys get a room start a thread...

h34r:


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## Liam_snorkel (19/12/12)

Truman said:


> I know you can carb up a keg in 24 hours or less.
> *But doesn't mean it's going to be drinkable for many reasons including* *carbonic bitterness* which I've learnt about through this thread, among other things, from those who read posts and provide good advice and suggestions.


Bullshit. You've learnt nothing haha.


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## donburke (19/12/12)

Cocko said:


> Come on guys get a room start a thread...
> 
> h34r:




get a thread up ya


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## Bongchitis (19/12/12)

Truman said:


> Umm...Because I was joking. Being facetious in reference to Diesel80,s post where he said carbonic bitterness takes about a week to dissipate. You didn't see the smiley at the end of the post??
> I know you can carb up a keg in 24 hours or less.
> But doesn't mean it's going to be drinkable for many reasons including carbonic bitterness which I've learnt about through this thread, among other things, from those who read posts and provide good advice and suggestions.



Picked up on this thread late but hey!

Sounds similar to the problems I had once I started to keg. I hate the taste and bitter twang of green beer and found my forced carb beers didn't really become 'nice' untill a couple of weeks (conditioning time equivalent to natural carb). Other people didnt notice this taste and drank the beer anyway after less than 12h in the keg. Obviously there are factors affecting conditioning time etc but judging by your posts you are a little impatient and as with most things in brewing, time is your friend.

You can drink beer from fermenter and force carbed in less than an hour, I for one have stopped trying to do this as i have been dissapointed every time only to be pleasantly surprised 2 weeks later.

Best of luck mate.


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## drew9242 (19/12/12)

Truman said:


> Umm...Because I was joking. Being facetious in reference to Diesel80,s post where he said carbonic bitterness takes about a week to dissipate. You didn't see the smiley at the end of the post??
> I know you can carb up a keg in 24 hours or less.
> But doesn't mean it's going to be drinkable for many reasons including carbonic bitterness which I've learnt about through this thread, among other things, from those who read posts and provide good advice and suggestions.



Truman if the beer you are drinking is slighly flat, then not much C02 has been absorbed. You cant blame the C02 for an increase in bitterness. C02 does add mouth feel and bite other wise we would drink flat beer. But in your fist post you said it was slighty under carbed. Go by what has come out of your tap, not what you set the reg up to for a 30 sec squirt. If i was you drill a hole in the fridge, and carb at serving temp, gives it some time to settle and clear and you will drinking away in 5 days. Really easy and not a lot of waiting if that is your problem.


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## drew9242 (19/12/12)

Truman said:


> I'm using a CO2 fire extinguisher and the gas in it is possibly quite old. It ran out of service this year and needs to be re-stamped before I fill it up, so the gas has been in there since it was last tested and stamped.



Are you using food grade C02 then?


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## Truman42 (19/12/12)

Bongchitis said:


> Obviously there are factors affecting conditioning time etc but judging by your posts you are a little impatient and as with most things in brewing, time is your friend.



No mate not at all. If I was I would have force carbed using the Ross method and be drinking it straight away. I was mainly concerned with the bitterness which appears to be from the beer being so cold when I first sampled it. As its a lot better now. Ive read many posts where brewers force carb and drink 24 hours later and I suppose with some styles you can get away with this. Ive only kegged two beers now and both times haven't been happy with the taste after a few days and waited a week or more for it to improve.

:icon_cheers:

@Drew9242....I agree with you about lack of co2 in the beer and I blame the initial bitterness on being served at such a cold temp as it improved a lot the next day after I fixed the fridge thermo and the fridge held temps at 4C.

Am I using food grade CO2???

It depends on which posters you beleive on the many threads on here about CO2 in fire extinguishers. Ive read enough and spoken to enough people to beleive that CO2 in fire extinguishers is no different to food grade Co2 and it comes out of the same pipe. Which includes people that have worked in the industry.


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## Bongchitis (19/12/12)

Truman said:


> No mate not at all. If I was I would have force carbed using the Ross method and be drinking it straight away. I was mainly concerned with the bitterness which appears to be from the beer being so cold when I first sampled it. As its a lot better now. Ive read many posts where brewers force carb and drink 24 hours later and I suppose with some styles you can get away with this. Ive only kegged two beers now and both times haven't been happy with the taste after a few days and waited a week or more for it to improve.
> 
> :icon_cheers:



Wasnt meant to be a snipe dude, just surprises me how much difference a couple of weeks makes. People have different taste buds too, differing perceptions in flavour, mouthfeel etc

I cannot stomach any brew earlier than a week, others love it straight away. Time will tell which camps fire you sit around.


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## Truman42 (19/12/12)

Bongchitis said:


> Wasnt meant to be a snipe dude, just surprises me how much difference a couple of weeks makes. People have different taste buds too, differing perceptions in flavour, mouthfeel etc
> 
> I cannot stomach any brew earlier than a week, others love it straight away. Time will tell which camps fire you sit around.



Mate I didnt take it that way at all and appreciate the advice. I agree with you fully, it certainly tastes better after a week or two, well it has with the two Ive kegged so far.


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## rotten (19/12/12)

I think speedie got a better spell checker :icon_chickcheers: 

still doesn't make any sense though


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## drsmurto (19/12/12)

Truman said:


> As I mentioned somewhere back in these posts I use a fire extinguisher mounted upside down to the side of my fridge so can't put it into the fridge. Also just to add I never started this thread asking how to carb kegs. It was more about CO2 and bitterness and if CO2 can go off after many years sitting around.
> 
> @Ross...thanks for the offer but the method I used was suggested to me by a longtime brewer and member of this forum. It works for him and it works for me. It only takes 3-4 days and its carbed up. (When I don't stuff up and do it wrong)
> It's not that difficult to connect the gas and charge to 400 kpa then disconnect, over 2-3 days. And by day 4 its good to go.
> I went away this weekend so couldn't do it how I normally would. Once I get my other fridge setup or drill a hole in this one for the gas I will just keep the gas on at serving pressure until its done.



Why can't you mount it inside the fridge?


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## Nick JD (19/12/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Why can't you mount it inside the fridge?



Because things would go to plan then, and there wouldn't be a reason to start another thread.


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## glenwal (19/12/12)

Nick JD said:


> Because things would go to plan then, and there wouldn't be a reason to start another thread.



Give it 10 minutes


All Latest Threads:
Mounting a CO2 bottle in a fridge. By Truman


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## Truman42 (19/12/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Why can't you mount it inside the fridge?



Because it wouldn't fit in the fridge with two kegs and a 9 litre and I would rather keep it oustide for now and save the space for kegs. Ive spoken to many people on here and other HBers who keep their gas bottle oustide the fridge and connect up to fill the keg with gas and disconnect. I did it this way with my first keg and it worked fine. After a serving session I just topped up to 12 PSI and left it until next time.

Once I use up the gas and get the dip tube removed I will probably sit it inside my new 450 litre fridge Im getting in a month or so as I will have the room for it.


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## drsmurto (19/12/12)

Glen W said:


> Give it 10 minutes
> 
> 
> All Latest Threads:
> ...



Fixed.


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## stux (19/12/12)

A hole and two airlock grommets. Line holes in inner and outer skin with airlock grommets. Pass 8mm OD line through airlock grommets. Nice n snug. 

Can't remember the size of the hole 12mm? Sounds too big... 10mm?


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## Truman42 (19/12/12)

DrSmurto said:


> Fixed.



Once again I never asked about how to carb kegs or anything about force carbing etc. 

All I asked was if forced carbing can lead to increased bitterness or if old Co2 can do the same.
And my questions were answered.
Where and how I mount my fire extinguisher and my chosen method to carb my beer is my problem. It works for me and many others Ive spoken to.


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## glenwal (19/12/12)

Truman said:


> Once again I never asked about how to carb kegs or anything about force carbing etc.
> 
> All I asked was if forced carbing can lead to increased bitterness or if old Co2 can do the same.
> And my questions were answered.
> Where and how I mount my fire extinguisher and my chosen method to carb my beer is my problem. It works for me and many others Ive spoken to.



fixed


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## Truman42 (19/12/12)

Glen W said:


> fixed



How long are you guys going to crap on about shit that has nothing to do with my original post and questions?? I didnt ask about mounting my extinguisher here so get over it FFS.

I did ask on another post and got some great advice which I used, so whats the big ******* deal????

@Stux...Thanks mate but I dont want to drill into this fridge, its only temporary until I get another one.


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## Nick JD (19/12/12)

Truman said:


> so whats the big ******* deal????



There's a general theme here, that you have issue with your beer/setup/flavours/recipes etc ... and start threads that take a lot of work and extra questions from everyone to help you get to the bottom of it.

Then everyone finds out you are doing beer/setup/flavours/recipes in a way that "some guy" said is how to do it - which is completely different to how everyone does it. Then you get shitty when people ask why you don't just do it _the way that works_. 

If I may offer some advice: start the thread like this:

"Does carbonation affect bitterness?" That's it - no long-winded descriptions of how you are fumbling with your gear and put in twenty twelve psi for eighteen seconds with your hat on backwards, because you don't have a hole in your fridge. See, you lead people down a garden path and then get shitty at them when they question your techniques. It's textbook passive aggression.

You will get better answers if you don't bury your problem in too much information. 

And since your question was about your beer - include your recipe in the first post.


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## GalBrew (19/12/12)

From what I can see above, force carbonation has definitely lead to an increase in bitterness...... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## sponge (19/12/12)

GalBrew said:


> From what I can see above, force carbonation has definitely lead to an increase in bitterness...... :lol: :lol: :lol:



Now THAT's a knee slapper!


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## Truman42 (19/12/12)

Nick JD said:


> There's a general theme here, that you have issue with your beer/setup/flavours/recipes etc ... and start threads that take a lot of work and extra questions from everyone to help you get to the bottom of it.
> 
> Then everyone finds out you are doing beer/setup/flavours/recipes in a way that "some guy" said is how to do it - which is completely different to how everyone does it. Then you get shitty when people ask why you don't just do it _the way that works_.
> 
> ...



Nick, I get your point on what your saying, and yes will include my recipe in the fist post in future.
But if you re-read my original post all I did say was 



> But one thing I did notice was that this beer along with my first kegged beer seems very bitter. It wasn't this bitter coming out of the fermenter.
> 
> I'm using a CO2 fire extinguisher and the gas in it is possibly quite old. It ran out of service this year and needs to be re-stamped before I fill it up, so the gas has been in there since it was last tested and stamped.
> 
> ...



I mentioned that I had mistakenly added 58PSI instead of 38 PSI, then Slash said 58PSi for two days is overcarbed. I replied explaining I didnt do that.

I received a few replies on what it could be including the beer being too cold to which I agreed on.

You derailed the thread by saying I over complicated things with my forced carbing method. It works for me and my system and I know others that do it too. I wasnt asking anthing about my forced carbing method but this thread headed that way with questions about why do I disconnect the gas and why dont I put the bottle inside the fridge, why dont I just leave the gas botltle hooked up for a week at 12 psi etc etc.


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## Truman42 (19/12/12)

GalBrew said:


> From what I can see above, force carbonation has definitely lead to an increase in bitterness...... :lol: :lol: :lol:




yes it certainly has...


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## Nick JD (19/12/12)

Truman said:


> Nick, I get your point on what your saying



Cool. B)


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## stakka82 (19/12/12)

This is the most crazy thread I've ever read.

This is how I do pale ales, and I'm some guy.

1. Brew
2. Ferment
3. CC day 5
4. Gelatine and force carb (ross method) day 7

The beer is freshest and best (but not the clearest) 15 mins after force carbing.

No carbonic bite, no green-ness, hop profile from (if any) dry hopping is the most prominent straight after kegging.

KISS


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## browndog (19/12/12)

GalBrew said:


> From what I can see above, force carbonation has definitely lead to an increase in bitterness...... :lol: :lol: :lol:



Wittiest post of 2012, well done sir.


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (5/1/14)

I'm gonna give this a bump. I noticed an increased bitterness in kegged beer (and bottled) after I stopped using my aluminium brew pot and moving to my stainless keggle. I have done both single and double brews. Has anyone else noticed a difference? Because I have when I kegged. My beers were ready to drink as soon as I forced carbed, now I brew in a keggle I need to wait a week or 2 just so the sharpness goes.


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## Fat Bastard (5/1/14)

Increased hop utilisation because of the slower change in temperature in the stainless keggle after flame out?
Very brief reply due to phone-posting.


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (5/1/14)

Fat Bastard said:


> Increased hop utilisation because of the slower change in temperature in the stainless keggle after flame out?
> Very brief reply due to phone-posting.


I'd love to hear the non-brief version..


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## Truman42 (5/1/14)

Im going to assume he means that the aluminium pot loses heat better and therefore your wort cools quicker after flame out. Now that your using a stainless kettle it holds the heat better so your still extracting bitterness from the hops whilst waiting to whirlpool etc.
Interesting theory and the only way you can check if its correct is to measure your wort temperature after whirlpool in your stainless kettle and do the same in your ali kettle with all other things being equal. You could just boil some water in each and test the theory that way too. Boil for 5 minutes. Rest for 10 mins, whirpool for 30 seconds then rest for another 10 mins and check the temperature. (Or whatever process you normally use.)

In practice though I would have thought were only talking about a minor temp difference and not enough to notice a difference in bitterness. 

EDIT: Did you really have to bump THIS thread....


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (5/1/14)

I actually planned a side by side brew. I will let you guys know how I get on.


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## Fat Bastard (5/1/14)

_WALLACE_ said:


> I'd love to hear the non-brief version..


 Basically what Truman said. Assuming everything else you're doing is the same, and the boil off rates are the same, and you're hittling all your targets, the temp change is really the only thing that could be causing this. In my own brews with late hop additions, I was finding that most of my beers were turning out far more bitter than I wanted them to be. My post boil process has been to let stand for 10 minutes, whirlpool for 5, and let stand for a further 10. before running through the chiller into the FV. Initially I had been chucking the flame out additions in at the end of the boil, but have since worked out that 0 minute additions need to go in at the start of the whirlpool i.e. at minus ten from flame out and I've been playing with additions after the whirlpool as well. Bitterness is now where it should be according to the tastebuds and not just the brewing software calcs.

Post flame out process seems to be incredibly important for obtaining the correct bitterness, and until recently with the new feature on beersmith, involved a lot of guesswork and experimentation. The difference in the physical properites of your new keggle might just be enough for you to be able to taste a difference in the hop bitterness. I'd also be very interested to hear the results of your back to back tests.

Are you no-chill ? Do you run the kettle insulated or un insulated?

Hope this helps!

FB


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## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (7/1/14)

I have done an experiment. I cubed an unhopped wort yesterday I plan to do a boil of a couple of litres and dump my hops in then. Will report when its in the keg.


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