# Mash Water For Herms Systems



## David Sinclair (6/2/09)

Hi guys, do you need to increase your water/grain ratio for HERMS? I just did a mash at 2.3L/KG of grain and when i recirculate through the heat exchanger i'm only getting a dribble back into the mash (with pump and tap wide open, it's primed to begin with) but when i batch sparge it recirculates no problem with a a lot more pressure.

Do i need to increase my mash ratio or is there some other problem (too fine of a crush)? 

I like my HERMS but am having a few teething problems


----------



## AndrewQLD (6/2/09)

Beer4Us said:


> Hi guys, do you need to increase your water/grain ratio for HERMS? I just did a mash at 2.3L/KG of grain and when i recirculate through the heat exchanger i'm only getting a dribble back into the mash (with pump and tap wide open, it's primed to begin with) but when i batch sparge it recirculates no problem with a a lot more pressure.
> 
> Do i need to increase my mash ratio or is there some other problem (too fine of a crush)?
> 
> I like my HERMS but am having a few teething problems



Sounds like your grain bed is compacting and restricting flow.
If you crush too fine this can happen, also if you try to recirculate too fast.

Andrew


----------



## KHB (6/2/09)

Beer4Us said:


> Hi guys, do you need to increase your water/grain ratio for HERMS? I just did a mash at 2.3L/KG of grain and when i recirculate through the heat exchanger i'm only getting a dribble back into the mash (with pump and tap wide open, it's primed to begin with) but when i batch sparge it recirculates no problem with a a lot more pressure.
> 
> Do i need to increase my mash ratio or is there some other problem (too fine of a crush)?
> 
> I like my HERMS but am having a few teething problems



I noticed this also on my firts run using my HERMS with a temp controller didnt really bother me as it cleared the wort nicely and maintained temp anyway.

KHB


----------



## razz (6/2/09)

I mash in at 3lts/kg and use a very low flow for recirculating. If I open the valve fully I can get some compaction. It will depend on how your system is setup. I did find that by using a low flow that I hit the mashout temp faster.


----------



## David Sinclair (6/2/09)

AndrewQLD said:


> Sounds like your grain bed is compacting and restricting flow.
> If you crush too fine this can happen, also if you try to recirculate too fast.
> 
> Andrew



It does sound like my grain bed is compacting probably because i've got to fine of a crush, i do end up with a lot of powder after the crush, i'll widen the gap and see what happens. Thanks.


----------



## Screwtop (6/2/09)

I mash in at 2.75 L/Kg (or close I use whole Litres) for all brews, open the wort return valve fully to maintain head pressure, while ramping temp, then give a very slight sitr and wait a few min for the wort to clear (easy if you're using silicone tubing) then back off the wort return valve to just a trickle, keeps the grain bed from compacting and maintains temp.

Hope this helps, Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## schooey (6/2/09)

How long is your HERMS coil out of curiosity? I ended up shortening mine a little for this reason, it's amazing how much friction loss there is /m. If your pump is already pushing it's limit with head, given that there is a head loss in every screwed fitting, valve and elbow in the flow path it can make a big difference.

I would also suggest that 2.3L/kg is a little on the thick side, take Screwy's advice above on that one


----------



## Screwtop (6/2/09)

schooey said:


> How long is your HERMS coil out of curiosity? I ended up shortening mine a little for this reason, it's amazing how much friction loss there is /m. If your pump is already pushing it's limit with head, given that there is a head loss in every screwed fitting, valve and elbow in the flow path it can make a big difference.
> 
> I would also suggest that 2.3L/kg is a little on the thick side, take Screwy's advice above on that one




3M in 10L of liquid schooey

Cheers,

Screwy


----------



## schooey (6/2/09)

A 3m coil of smooth annealed copper will add about another 2 to 3 feet of head to the system, depending on how much head is already on the pump and what the flow rate is at the begiining of the coil.

edit: Never thought I'd find a curve for an 809 March, but lo and behold...

If you already have 7 feet of total head before you add the coil, your out put is about 3 gpm, if you add the 3m coil, your output then becomes closer to 1.5 gpm.


----------



## Screwtop (6/2/09)

schooey said:


> A 3m coil of smooth annealed copper will add about another 2 to 3 feet of head to the system, depending on how much head is already on the pump and what the flow rate is at the begiining of the coil.
> 
> edit: Never thought I'd find a curve for an 809 March, but lo and behold...
> 
> If you already have 7 feet of total head before you add the coil, your out put is about 3 gpm, if you add the 3m coil, your output then becomes closer to 1.5 gpm.




Whatever  mine works

Screwy


----------



## schooey (6/2/09)

Yeah mine too....


----------



## TidalPete (6/2/09)

Mash in at 1Kg\3.25 Litres here with 4.5 metres of copper\ 7 Litres water in the HE & I'm happy with it. No worries about my grainbed compacting either.


TP

Edit --- That 80\- is getting to me. :lol:


----------



## David Sinclair (6/2/09)

schooey said:


> How long is your HERMS coil out of curiosity? I ended up shortening mine a little for this reason, it's amazing how much friction loss there is /m. If your pump is already pushing it's limit with head, given that there is a head loss in every screwed fitting, valve and elbow in the flow path it can make a big difference.
> 
> I would also suggest that 2.3L/kg is a little on the thick side, take Screwy's advice above on that one



2.75/kg sweet i'll try that next, thanks screwy, i was thinking i wasn't using enough mash water and was wondering what others used. My HERMS coil used to be 3m in 12L now it's about 5.6m in 12L it doesn't have any problem with water or batch sparge, just the mash..

Thanks again guys, there nothing worst than having a new system that doesn't work right <_<


----------



## technocat (7/2/09)

schooey said:


> How long is your HERMS coil out of curiosity? I ended up shortening mine a little for this reason, it's amazing how much friction loss there is /m. If your pump is already pushing it's limit with head, given that there is a head loss in every screwed fitting, valve and elbow in the flow path it can make a big difference.
> 
> I would also suggest that 2.3L/kg is a little on the thick side, take Screwy's advice above on that one



Shooey what is the internal diameter of the copper tubing you are useing. I am looking at setting up my HLT as a HERMS


----------



## schooey (7/2/09)

The above was in reference to tables I have for 1/2" copper. Obviously every system is different


----------



## technocat (7/2/09)

schooey said:


> The above was in reference to tables I have for 1/2" copper. Obviously every system is different



I have 15 metres of 3/8" copper tubing, and by whats been said water to grist ratio would need to be higher to pump it through.
You mentioned tables is there a site that gives you some idea of length versus internal diameter. I have all the specs on the march pump.

Cheers


----------



## Vlad the Pale Aler (7/2/09)

My tuppence worth.
I Mash at 2.5-1kg, when conversion is over in about 30 mins, I add more liquor to compensate for the the capacity of the herms before I recirculate for another 30 mins.
I also use a lauter grant so there is no compaction of the grain bed caused by the pump.


----------



## schooey (7/2/09)

Beernut said:


> I have 15 metres of 3/8" copper tubing, and by whats been said water to grist ratio would need to be higher to pump it through.
> You mentioned tables is there a site that gives you some idea of length versus internal diameter. I have all the specs on the march pump.
> 
> Cheers


----------

