# trying to get a brew into a commercial 50L keg



## pump21 (11/1/16)

Hi guys.
Im new to home brewing. I have a kegerator setup at home and have been using commercial 50 litre kegs. But im trying to learn to make my own beer, I have put a brew down at home but just trying to get ideas from people of how to get it into a 50 litre keg once fermentation is done so the beer is going to the bottom of the keg and not getting too much air mixed in
Cheers in advance


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## S.E (11/1/16)

Just fill it through your keg coupler using the co2 inlet to vent. To clean the keg do the same but turn the keg upside down and pump hot caustic through it.


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## pump21 (11/1/16)

Ok thanks for your help. Is that the best way to sanitise the keg


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## S.E (11/1/16)

Not the best way to sanitise a keg but one of the simplest ways to clean one on a home brew or small commercial scale. After the caustic wash follow with a rinse and phosphoric wash.


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## Topher (11/1/16)

Cleaning is important. But use caution....Caustic is dangerous.

If there are any micros near you they might let you use their keg washer. 

Americans call them sanke kegs. So google CIP sanke keg and you will see how others do it. 

When filling make sure you purge the keg of oxygen before you put the beer in. Pump co2 in then let the gas out a few times.


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## pump21 (11/1/16)

Ok. Once I have done that how do I keep the oxygen out whiletrying to get the beer in from the tub


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## S.E (11/1/16)

[SIZE=11pt]If you’re concerned about that you can purge the keg first with co2.[/SIZE]


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## pump21 (11/1/16)

Caustic doesn't exactly sound like the best stuff to be mucking around with. Is there any other was to sanitise the keg


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## Topher (11/1/16)

Gravity should work if you open the gas side. Co2 is heavier than o2 so it will always sit at the bottom. Put your fermenter up high and use a siphon or tube from the tap to the beer side of the coupler. 

The beer will push the blanket of c02 up and out the gas tube.


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## MastersBrewery (11/1/16)

You guys all missed removing the oneway valve in the coupler. There are specific filler couplers you can buy, they're used for cleaning and filling. But basically the same as all the rest just with out the NRV ( oneway valve) so just take it out (should be a white plastic thingy) if I find a pic I'll post it.
ED:caustic is nasty, first rinse through with water, then recirculate with hot PBW for 20min then rinse with clean water the rinse with star san(no rinse sanitiser) purge with co2 good to go. Invert the keg for all cleaning.


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## S.E (11/1/16)

pump21 said:


> Caustic doesn't exactly sound like the best stuff to be mucking around with. Is there any other was to sanitise the keg


Caustic is a heavy duty cleaner sold in supermarkets to housewives for domestic use, but yes it is indeed often cited as a hazard and beyond the scope of us simple home brewers.


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## Pogierob (11/1/16)

personally I wouldn't bother. the cornie kegs are more suited to single 20ish litre batches.

much easier to clean and fill. it also allows for a few different kegs to be in the fridge.


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## MastersBrewery (11/1/16)

Rob.P said:


> personally I wouldn't bother. the cornie kegs are more suited to single 20ish litre batches.
> 
> much easier to clean and fill. it also allows for a few different kegs to be in the fridge.


Working with comercial type kegs is next level, mainly due to lack of access for cleaning. Yes it can be done! If you search sanke keg cleaner, you will find HBT threads detailing keg washer builds, most of these use big high temp pumps march series 5 or better. A lot of mucking about. If your going pro or have 10 or 15 of them go for it. End of the day cleaning has to be done properly each time in the long run if your not willing to throw dollars at a system to clean comercial kegs ($700+. note comercial kkeg cleaners are around $5000 for a manual one) then best to go with cornie kegs.


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## /// (12/1/16)

hiya

It is harder to carbonate a 50l keg in a rush than clean it to be honest. One way to clean without alot of equipment is to push the cleaning/sanitizers around with pressure from another keg like a cornie. Whilst exposure of caustic to CO2 will cause beer stone and neutralize the caustic, a quick push for a few mins will not give much grief.

Some of the big buts if you are using caustic is a) safety eye wear b) gloves and shoes (sounds strange but how many HB'ers brew in safety things) c) vent the keg of CO2 before starting. Caustic has a magic ability to find your eyes ... A rinse cycle is best between the caustic and Acid sanitize.

Do not use iodophor of any of the phosphoric sanitisers as any residue left in the keg stem or keg will taint the beer. Hence the reason the big kids use Peracetic Acid (PAA). PAA also will neutralize caustic with no flavor taint.

The special cleaning coupler comment has thrown us a bit, no such thing. One way valves are used when banking kegs in cellars, but in our 3 cellars we never bank so i rip them out. It is also way easier to carbonate down the stem than thru the gas port so the droppers need to be removed anyways. If you look down the piston you will see a plastic dropper and holding cage if present.

The mention to Sanke is also slightly misleading. The Americans refuse to use the proper coding system for kegs, which is A Type (Flat/Tooheys style), D (Well/CUB/Sanke), S (Asahi/Deep Well), G (Guinness/Trilobe). All work the same really, but A type is the most hygienic and easy to use.

All couplers have a 5/8'th thread on them and suppliers like Keg King and Andale sell conversion parts to a Cornie keg gas and beer snaplock fittings typically used in home brewing. Be careful on transfers of hoppy beers though, these fittings easily clog with hop flakes.

Happy cleaning.


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## klangers (12/1/16)

Steam is usually used for industrial breweries prior to filling. You shouldn't need to use caustic unless you've got some seriously baked on gunk.

I have recently made the leap into 50L kegs because I came across what I thought was a great bargain at the time (this fact hasn't changed).... but to be honest now I'm regretting it. 50L is a huge amount of beer and they don't fit in fridges as nicely as cornies. In addition, the keg couplers are not cheap and you'll need several if you want any kind of convenience.

However, the most crippling disadvantage is that the entire home brew community is centred around cornies so it's very difficult to find any components without paying an arm and a keg. Furthermore, force carbonation is a pain the arse because, since the gas hardware out there is designed around cornies, you can't easily "burp" a keg.

Also, I hope you're strong with no back problems.


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## MastersBrewery (12/1/16)

Schooled right there!


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## Mardoo (12/1/16)

///, love it when you drop in mate.


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## technobabble66 (12/1/16)

Just out of curiosity, is there any reason why you'd use caustic, and not do as MB said in post#10 and use hot PBW followed by Starsan?

Ps: +1 to mardoo's comment [emoji57]


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## klangers (12/1/16)

technobabble66 said:


> Just out of curiosity, is there any reason why you'd use caustic, and not do as MB said in post#10 and use hot PBW followed by Starsan?


Caustic is a more effective cleaner (it's what oven cleaner is made from), and substantially cheaper. At a home brew level it shouldn't be necessary because we have the luxury of being able to disassemble and scrub the equipment.


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## pump21 (12/1/16)

Thanks for the help guys


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## technobabble66 (12/1/16)

klangers said:


> Caustic is a more effective cleaner (it's what oven cleaner is made from), and substantially cheaper. At a home brew level it shouldn't be necessary because we have the luxury of being able to disassemble and scrub the equipment.


I can see that caustic seems to be used to make extra extra sure that every nook & cranny is completely clean. But i have to admit in my experience a 24-48hr soak in hot PBW gets everything squeaky clean; including inaccessible areas like cubes with dried yeast scum on them, etc.
Is PBW actually not as effective as i believe it is?


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## Mardoo (12/1/16)

It's the difference between potentially losing $25 worth of product vs $25,000 worth of product. Caustic is insurance, AFAIK.


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## MastersBrewery (12/1/16)

Mardoo said:


> It's the difference between potentially losing $25 worth of product vs $25,000 worth of product. Caustic is insurance, AFAIK.


50L 4 $25 Bloody hell either your stealin' malt or your makin' light beers ! :huh:


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## technobabble66 (12/1/16)

Table sugar is very cheap.


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## Weizguy (12/1/16)

> <snipped>
> However, the most crippling disadvantage is that the entire home brew community is centred around cornies so it's very difficult to find any components without paying an arm and a keg. Furthermore, force carbonation is a pain the arse because, since the gas hardware out there is designed around cornies, you can't easily "burp" a keg.


I have a CUB D-type coupler that has a built-in PRV that you can use to depressurize or burp the keg.
Not sure where you can buy one, because mine came with a bundle of keg goodies that I bought from W.A. via eBay.


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## mb-squared (12/1/16)

just had a quick read through this thread. it appears that everyone is talking about cleaning the keg with the spear in place. and that is certainly going to be more difficult than cleaning a corny (though it certainly can be done!). but why not remove the spear? it is easy to do. I do it all the time and I'm all thumbs. after you've removed it, take it outside, turn it upside down, shove the garden hose up in there and spray it clean. turn it back over, fill it with ~5L of water and your favorite cleaner (I use caustic soda 'cause I'm really into living on the edge... and I like a clean keg) and pop it on your favorite gas burner. bring it to a boil and let it rip for ~15 minutes. get some heavy gloves on, give it a slosh or two, flip it over and down the drain it goes. give it a quick acid rinse and the inside of that thing will as clean as you'll ever need. while your keg is boiling away, dissemble the spear, clean it up real good and then put it back together and install. easy!

I ferment in my 50L and so I need it to be as close to sterile in there as possible and this is my routine. Haven't had a problem in a very long time.


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## S.E (12/1/16)

/// said:


> Do not use iodophor of any of the phosphoric sanitisers as any residue left in the keg stem or keg will taint the beer. Hence the reason the big kids use Peracetic Acid (PAA). PAA also will neutralize caustic with no flavor taint.


What’s wrong with phosphoric sanitisers? Everyone knows we don’t need to fear the foam. Next you’ll be telling us we don’t need kittens in our airlocks!! Feckin eejit.


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## /// (12/1/16)

The tangents are going everywhere, so to be short and sweet;

* caustic is the best per pound cleaner in a brewery, the other cleaners sold are just marketing really. Caustic breaks down protein and fats (trub, beer ring, yeast etc), is cheap and easy to use as long as you be safe. Yes low pH phosphorics work, but there are lots of caveats.
* PRV's are not yet a standard for keg couplers in Oz, but will be one day. Les, the fella that lost his arm due to a lack of PRV on a coupler up your way will see it become a reality. That was an awful injury. 
* assuming if you are removing the stem to clean a keg you have a A-type with no safety and a 1 piece body. These are the poorest designed keg stems and were endemic in the Shafer keg black plastic fleet that came cheap into Oz from Germany a few years ago after the Krouts found these kegs to be shite. Removing a stem from a D/S type is way harder, especially with the crappy cir-clip and the 2 euro cost. Commercial kegs are made to be cleaned upside down with flow though, so why change that.

Scotty


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## /// (12/1/16)

S.E said:


> What’s wrong with phosphoric sanitisers? Everyone knows we don’t need to fear the foam. Next you’ll be telling us we don’t need kittens in our airlocks!! Feckin eejit.


Nothing, but the shite needs to be cleared. Cornies are much easier as we usually dump in and dump out. Have had a few guys sell beer to us using Iodophor and not clear it out and the beer taste like crap. Also the phos sanitisers are good for high turnover tanks still under pressure and cold. 

On Hols next week, keen for the usual Gong milk happy hour milk run on Thursday? Will sent a note on the IBU forum


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## wynnum1 (13/1/16)

If you do use caustic be careful it does injure permanently.


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## S.E (13/1/16)

Didn’t mean to turn this thread into a keg cleaning safety debate. Just mentioned the caustic cleaning method as I assume OP is talking about filling the keg without being able remove the spear so would need to clean it with the spear in place also.

Blasting a couple litres of hot caustic up through the spear is a fast efficient way of cleaning a keg in just a few minutes using minimal water. If time isn’t an issue I guess it may be easier to stand the keg upright and fill it through the coupler with cold water and whatever cleaner you choose for an overnight soak.

Whatever chemicals you decide to use read the safety info on the container and don’t forget to have your work checked over by a licensed professional cleaner.


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