# Advice Please - Crush The Oats?



## Brewer_010 (28/3/12)

I'm putting ~10% oats into a stout (next weekish) and have flaked oats to use - do I run these through the mill with the rest of the grain or leave as is? 

Thinking that it makes sense to crush, otherwise it will be a frikken mess, but on the other hand...??

Thanks in advance!


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## rosswill (28/3/12)

No need to crush flaked oats. Strait into the mash.


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## QldKev (28/3/12)

tha nor haw you make porridge B) 

Yep, just chuck them in for a nudee swim


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## wessmith (28/3/12)

Brewer_010 said:


> I'm putting ~10% oats into a stout (next weekish) and have flaked oats to use - do I run these through the mill with the rest of the grain or leave as is?
> 
> Thinking that it makes sense to crush, otherwise it will be a frikken mess, but on the other hand...??
> 
> Thanks in advance!



I would run the flaked (rolled) oats through the mill a couple of times and keep separate. Soak overnight in cold water then gelatinise offline (in a pot) before adding to the main mash. You will need about 5 ltrs/kg total of water to do this. The end result will be better conversion as much of the flaked oats product has been poorly converted/gelatinised in manufacture. Just think about making porridge!

Wes


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## jyo (28/3/12)

wessmith said:


> I would run the flaked (rolled) oats through the mill a couple of times and keep separate. Soak overnight in cold water then gelatinise offline (in a pot) before adding to the main mash. You will need about 5 ltrs/kg total of water to do this. The end result will be better conversion as much of the flaked oats product has been poorly converted/gelatinised in manufacture. Just think about making porridge!
> 
> Wes



I'm going to try this method next time and see how it goes. 

Cheers.


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## manticle (28/3/12)

wessmith said:


> I would run the flaked (rolled) oats through the mill a couple of times and keep separate. Soak overnight in cold water then gelatinise offline (in a pot) before adding to the main mash. You will need about 5 ltrs/kg total of water to do this. The end result will be better conversion as much of the flaked oats product has been poorly converted/gelatinised in manufacture. Just think about making porridge!
> 
> Wes



I've only ever used Simpsons golden naked which I toast lightly then run through a mill. My understanding is that the GN oats are crystal oats so presumably have already been gelatinised.

Firstly is this correct?

Secondly, if I were to use flaked, raw or rolled oats in a future brew, at what temp would I be gelatinising them and do I need surplus enzymes/high diastatic base malt to convert them and/or a cereal mash?

Cheers


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## mje1980 (28/3/12)

wessmith said:


> I would run the flaked (rolled) oats through the mill a couple of times and keep separate. Soak overnight in cold water then gelatinise offline (in a pot) before adding to the main mash. You will need about 5 ltrs/kg total of water to do this. The end result will be better conversion as much of the flaked oats product has been poorly converted/gelatinised in manufacture. Just think about making porridge!
> 
> Wes




Wes, does this do anything for head retention? I made an oatmeal stout, and the head, and retention was non existant. I thought it weird because i have heard good things about oats and smooth mouthfeel and head retention


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## seemax (28/3/12)

Done several stouts using cheapo quick oats ... slow roasted in the oven at 100C until brown and biscuity ... then straight in the mash.. has worked well.


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## Bribie G (28/3/12)

Supermarket oats contain a fair amount of oils which could kill head retention. Oatmeal stout is a bit like Milk Stout, sounds great but it was really only an advertising gimmick - probably put one oat in the mash. 

Similar urban myths: use peated malt for smoky genuine Scottish ales.

bullshit, totally fabricated nonsense - that's coming from a drinker of many Scots beers in their native land. 

However if you want to use anything flaked in a stout, recommend flaked barley.


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## Brewer_010 (28/3/12)

Bribie G said:


> Supermarket oats contain a fair amount of oils which could kill head retention. Oatmeal stout is a bit like Milk Stout, sounds great but it was really only an advertising gimmick - probably put one oat in the mash.
> 
> Similar urban myths: use peated malt for smoky genuine Scottish ales.
> 
> ...



Interesting point about the oats, I have read and heard about silky smoothness from oats in a stout however I've never had a commercial example. May go to Plonk and find one to try out.


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## Brewer_010 (28/3/12)

seemax said:


> Done several stouts using cheapo quick oats ... slow roasted in the oven at 100C until brown and biscuity ... then straight in the mash.. has worked well.



thanks seemax - does the toasty flavour come through well?


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## tommygun (28/3/12)

Bribie G said:


> Similar urban myths: use peated malt for smoky genuine Scottish ales.
> 
> bullshit, totally fabricated nonsense - that's coming from a drinker of many Scots beers in their native land.




Islay Scottish ale....


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## Bribie G (28/3/12)

tommygun said:


> Islay Scottish ale....



I said *genuine *Scots Ales as a style. Newcomers such as Swamp Head Brewery are not necessarily traditional, and probably strive not to be. Next season they could well bring out a chilli Scots curry ale, the noo. 

Anyway, off topic for oats, just having a slag off at the usually American-origin so called "lost beers that need to be resurrected" - many of which never existed in the first place. 

Anyone for a cock ale?


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## Online Brewing Supplies (28/3/12)

Bribie G said:


> I said *genuine *Scots Ales as a style. Newcomers such as Swamp Head Brewery are not necessarily traditional, and probably strive not to be. Next season they could well bring out a chilli Scots curry ale, the noo.
> 
> Anyway, off topic for oats, just having a slag off at the usually American-origin so called "lost beers that need to be resurrected" - many of which never existed in the first place.
> 
> Anyone for a cock ale?


 I believe jyo would like the COCK ale.
Nev


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## jyo (28/3/12)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> I believe jyo would like the COCK ale.
> Nev



I believe I'll try anything once...in a beer 

I've made a few (only 3 to be exact, so no guru) oatmeal stouts and I used between 6 and 8 percent toasted oats straight in the mash. Never had any problems with head retention. If I could make one half as good as Samuel Smiths I'd be a happy man. Time to get one ready for winter I think!


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## Spork (29/3/12)

My version. Not bad IISSMS






My fave oatmeal stout.





I mill the flaked oats. I don't think I need to, but they are in the bucket with the rest of the grain bill, so through they go.


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## Dave70 (29/3/12)

Brewer_010 said:


> I'm putting ~10% oats into a stout



I used half that last weekend and it stuck to buggery. Was probably more to do with my 'yeah, that's long enough' approach to mashing out, but give that grain bed plenty of time to settle followed by a slow drain would be my suggestion.

Some say a bad brewer blames his grist. I say its a victimless crime.


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## wessmith (29/3/12)

manticle said:


> I've only ever used Simpsons golden naked which I toast lightly then run through a mill. My understanding is that the GN oats are crystal oats so presumably have already been gelatinised.
> 
> Firstly is this correct?
> 
> ...



Manticle, Simpsons GN is indeed a crystal malt and should be used as you would any other crystal grain. It is not only gelatinised but is converted as well. 

Flaked or rolled oats and barley have been partially modified in the production process and theoretically can be added directly into the mash. The problem is that much of the product around in the local retail market has not been prepared specifically for brewing and varies dramatically in the degree of modification. Hence the suggestion to soak and pre-gelatinise. Both oats and barley will gelatinise at around 65C but it does no harm to use 70 to 75C while stirring vigorously to stop the "porridge" catching on the pot bottom. I would go for Simpsons or TF flaked products by preference.

All local malts have heaps of diastatic power and even the English floor malted higher colour malts (MO, Halcyon, GP) will easily handle 10% unmalted adjunct.

Wes


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## wessmith (29/3/12)

mje1980 said:


> Wes, does this do anything for head retention? I made an oatmeal stout, and the head, and retention was non existant. I thought it weird because i have heard good things about oats and smooth mouthfeel and head retention



mje1980, how much % of the grist was FO? Was it a brewing product? 

Wes


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## mje1980 (29/3/12)

Sorry wes, it was plain old rolled oats from woollies, and around 10%.


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## Mikedub (29/3/12)

i've got a stout with 20% flaked barley @66 sitting at 1.014 from 1.042 using wlp004, raised the temp and roused but i really thought it would get down quite a bit more, but wondering if its the flaked barley inhibiting further attenuation?


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## fraser_john (29/3/12)

Same as manticle, I use the Simpsons Golden Naked Oats and run them through the mill three times to pulverise them to get the best extraction (probably not necessary), I only use about 200gm at a time in a stout or porter.

I have used raw oatmeal (350gm) before but soaked and microwaved until well and truly cooked (gelatanized), starch testing revealed that after an hour conversion was still not completed and took an additional 23 odd minutes (looking at my brewing notes). The base malt was Joe White Traditional Ale, which I do not use any more and only use Simpsons MO due to the difference in quality.

If I recall correctly, when I used the raw oatmeal, the stout had a wonderful silky mouthfeel even though the FG was 1.011


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## wessmith (29/3/12)

mje1980 said:


> Sorry wes, it was plain old rolled oats from woollies, and around 10%.



Probably as someone suggested - may have been high in natural oils but almost certainly would have been lacking in the modification stakes. Preparing rolled oats and rolled barley for brewing is quite involved. It entails raising the moisture content of the grain, usually with steam, holding at a temp that will cause some gelatinisation, then actually rolling through heavy heated rollers. The rolling itself generates a high degree of heat (just as the rollers in your grain mill get hot when crushing grain) which is supposed to complete the gelatinisation and break down some of the starch chains.

Try some of the English stuff from the above sponsors for a comparison. Actually you could also look on the analysis panel on the packet to see what level of oils (fats) and protein were present.

Wes


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## wessmith (29/3/12)

A followup to my earlier comments - did a quick scan along the brekkie cereal aisles at the local Coles and Woolies as well as a local health food store. Interesting - both the Coles and Woolies house brands of Rolled Oats were both high in protein and fat - 13.8 and 14.3% protein and 9.8 and 10.4% fat. I would not use either for brewing on those figures. Both stores stock the Lowan brand which was must better at 10% protein and 8.9% fat. Best brand I found (and the most expensive) was Kialla Organic at the Health Food store - currently being sourced from Finland following the Qld floods. Protein was 8.9% and fat around the same. Bought some for the coming porridge season!

Wes


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## brettprevans (29/3/12)

my last wit used 2kg of oats. homebrand oats. made porridge (ie gelatinisation), added to mash. pertfect. except that making 2kg of oats into porridge takes fkn ridiculous amount of space.


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## wessmith (29/3/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> my last wit used 2kg of oats. homebrand oats. made porridge (ie gelatinisation), added to mash. pertfect. except that making 2kg of oats into porridge takes fkn ridiculous amount of space.



Yep, you got it. Thats why my 5 ltr/kg figure in the earlier post. You would have needed around 10 ltrs!

Wes


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## brettprevans (29/3/12)

wessmith said:


> Yep, you got it. Thats why my 5 ltr/kg figure in the earlier post. You would have needed around 10 ltrs!
> 
> Wes


yup i meant to referance your post. it was just as well i was using my big arse stock pot. the idea of soaking overnight is fine but its a PITA to heat the next day. I found that same thing when making rice beers. the first time i made the night before an PITA to reheat. so i make it on the day just before i need it. horses for courses i guess.

edit: judging on your other post about GN oats, it sounds like a hell of a lot simpler to buy GN oats than supermarket oats. unfortunetly its just a bit expensive unless you were making a lof of beers using oats. my 2c


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## manticle (29/3/12)

wessmith said:


> Manticle, Simpsons GN is indeed a crystal malt and should be used as you would any other crystal grain. It is not only gelatinised but is converted as well.
> 
> Flaked or rolled oats and barley have been partially modified in the production process and theoretically can be added directly into the mash. The problem is that much of the product around in the local retail market has not been prepared specifically for brewing and varies dramatically in the degree of modification. Hence the suggestion to soak and pre-gelatinise. Both oats and barley will gelatinise at around 65C but it does no harm to use 70 to 75C while stirring vigorously to stop the "porridge" catching on the pot bottom. I would go for Simpsons or TF flaked products by preference.
> 
> ...



Thanks mate.

Very helpful.


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## wessmith (29/3/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> yup i meant to referance your post. it was just as well i was using my big arse stock pot. the idea of soaking overnight is fine but its a PITA to heat the next day. I found that same thing when making rice beers. the first time i made the night before an PITA to reheat. so i make it on the day just before i need it. horses for courses i guess.
> 
> edit: judging on your other post about GN oats, it sounds like a hell of a lot simpler to buy GN oats than supermarket oats. unfortunetly its just a bit expensive unless you were making a lof of beers using oats. my 2c



But GN Oats are a crystal oat malt. You would not use that as a "normal" flaked oat adjunct unless you specifically were after a sweeter crystal flavour. Did you mean Simpsons Flaked Oats?

Wes


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## brettprevans (29/3/12)

wessmith said:


> But GN Oats are a crystal oat malt. You would not use that as a "normal" flaked oat adjunct unless you specifically were after a sweeter crystal flavour. Did you mean Simpsons Flaked Oats?
> 
> Wes


Yes I meant flaked oates.


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## beachy (29/3/12)

How do Bairds Malted Oats compare to the other forms of oats being mentioned here? 

I would think the protien/fat content would not be an issue but how would the flavour contribution compare to the other forms mentioned?


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## Brewer_010 (29/3/12)

citymorgue2 said:


> my last wit used 2kg of oats. homebrand oats. made porridge (ie gelatinisation), added to mash. pertfect. except that making 2kg of oats into porridge takes fkn ridiculous amount of space.



So you didn't crush the oats first, just made porridge with them?

I'm wanting to try toasting then crushing then adding to the mash, but also just doing a porridge then adding that to the mash....maybe I'll have to do two stouts


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## brettprevans (30/3/12)

Brewer_010 said:


> So you didn't crush the oats first, just made porridge with them?
> 
> I'm wanting to try toasting then crushing then adding to the mash, but also just doing a porridge then adding that to the mash....maybe I'll have to do two stouts


yup just porridge and left it a little longer to help gelatinisation.

seems to be some debate on whether crushing will increase efficency. I would guess that if you adding directly to mash then yeah crushing might not be a bad idea, but if your doing a cerial mash (ie making porridge) then its not goign to make a lick of differance if you crush or not.

I didnt toast mine as it went into a wit and I didnt want toasty flavours. but yeah toasting will have a flavour impact not an efficiency/gelatinisation impact

yeah make 2 stouts and do a side by side comparison. good excuse to make more beer


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