# American IPA - mash temps



## bcp (13/7/13)

About to a couple of american IPAs. I'm thinking that I want higher body with some residual sweetness to balance the IBUs, so was planning on high mash temperatures. 

Just interested in others' experiences with american IPAs. 

I'm doing a LCPA, then I'll use the yeast cake for a Bell's Two Hearted clone. 
As a separate pair i'll brew a sierra nevada pale and use the same yeast for an Alesmith-style IPA.


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## /// (13/7/13)

70c -drop the crystal way back. Start 1.075, finish about 1.020

Scotty


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## Kranky (13/7/13)

If you want to make a beer that's close to the original the best starting point is the brewery website. They often have information that will give you some good hints at what sort of mash temperatures you should be using.

If you look at Bell's website you will see that they give the starting gravity at 1064 and the abv. is 7% so it would be a lower mash temp. http://www.bellsbeer.com/brands/info/2

SNPA is given in Plato - 13.2 starting to 2.8 finishing http://www.sierranevada.com/beer/year-round/pale-ale

AleSmith's IPA is 1.072 with an abv of 7.25% so it is probably mashed at a higher temperature http://alesmith.com/beers/alesmith-ipa/

One way I like to try and track down a reliable recipe is searching the web for articles where the brewer or brewery have released the recipe. This list is useful and reliable : http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you-brew-database-updated-11-2011-a-280749/

Other ways to get reliable recipes is to ask on here, search other websites where homebrewers discuss the recipe you are after in detail trying to clone it or email the brewery (I've had mixed success getting advice but it does work sometimes).

Remember that if you like sweet beer you will get a bigger hangover if you over do it and follow Scotty's advice and DO NOT overdo the crystal malts, too much crystal malt and Pacific West Coast hops are a train wreck.


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## /// (13/7/13)

Ohh jeez kranky, that's a bit harsh. The high mash gives lots dextrines, not so much sweetness, so at 7% alc the hangover is more from the booze.

But you need balance, with all those hops more than a few percent crystal it will taste like tin. Hence why a higher mash will help.

The Alesmith beer is also a killer, had it in the tasting room at the brewery and then lots if bottle did it ... Twas awesome


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## Phoney (13/7/13)

I've made IPA's with up to 10% crystal and they've been awesome. No train wrecks or tinny tastes. Here's one im looking at right now, one of my favourites.


82% golden promise
8% crystal 
5% victory
5% sugar
.5g/L chinook/simcoe/centennial @ FWH, 30, 15, 10, 0 and dry hop.
1.070 OG
80 IBU
mashed at 65C

:kooi:


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## Kranky (13/7/13)

Higher mash temperatures give you longer chain sugars that yeast either struggle to consume or can't consume, which result in a sweeter beer. Sweet alcohol will give you a worse hangover than dry alcohol. Mash low and you can drink more. Russian River's iconic Pliny the Elder is mashed at 66.5C deliberately to produce a drier beer because Vinny Cilurzo doesn't like sweet alcohol, keep in mind that about 18 grams of hops per litre of finished beer are used for Pliny. Just down the road at Lagunitas you will find their IPA is mashed at 71C, and it's a superb beer. It's really a matter of preference at the end of the day.

I've never used that much crystal malt that it tasted like tin but I do know that too much crystal malt will kill off the the aromatic and flavour properties of PNW hops. It will depend on the grains that are used but much over 12% and you may start to encounter problems. Generally I wont use more than about 8% but if I'm trying to clone a beer and the recipe calls for it I will stick to the recipe.

The AleSmith IPA is a great beer but when I was in San Diego I preferred the Sculpin from Ballast Point.


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## BreathingHeat (13/7/13)

I have never gotten the hype for AleSmith IPA. I actually found it to be overly dry, regardless of what the stats say....and I like a dry IPA. I have a sneaking suspicion that their staff, family and friends are ratebeer members. 

For IPAs and IIPAs, I generally mash low around 64, limit crystal to ≤4%, and add 3-4% dextrose. Even with FGs around 1.010-1.014 I still don't find the beers too dry and am happy with the mouthfeel. I suppose 7-10% ABV range helps balance the dryness.


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## slash22000 (13/7/13)

Bell's Two Hearted ale clone straight from the brewers: https://i.imgur.com/bfITU9X.jpg

If you're worried about balance, I wouldn't mess around trying to mash for a high final gravity, just reduce the IBU's. I mean it's up to you of course, personally I reckon a 1.020 FG IPA, you might as well blend hops with some golden syrup and chug it down. :huh:


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## Yob (13/7/13)

Step mash and control the temps and times + the right malts.. Piss the crystal right off, not required if step mashing.

I mash low for 60 then ramp up through to 72 over the second hour, and dex added late in the ferment.. If required..

That said, dunno about cloning, I find it impossible to stick to a recipe (even my own are loosely considered as a starting point) and rarely Brew the exact thing twice..

I find that ever changing goal post one of the most enjoyable parts of home brewing…


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## JasonP (13/7/13)

Yob said:


> Step mash and control the temps and times + the right malts.. Piss the crystal right off, not required if step mashing.
> 
> I mash low for 60 then ramp up through to 72 over the second hour, and dex added late in the ferment.. If required..
> 
> ...


You mash for 2 hours?


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## Edak (13/7/13)

Also never tried adding dex late in fermentation, care to elaborate?


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## Yob (13/7/13)

For a big IIPA and a single batch like last night's (screw efficiency) I went a big bill, something like 9kg (single), an extended mash can help with a more fermentable wort, giving beta more time to cut up the longer chains, I was pushed for time and with my fly sparge ran off quicker than I normally would and was still running 1030 wort when I was at full boil volume, I knew this would be the case, sort of a partigyle but discarding the second gyle. 1075. Should finish 1014ish.

're dex addition.. Added early can make the yeast lazy, added late can give them the legs to finish it all up nicely.


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## JasonP (13/7/13)

Yob said:


> For a big IIPA and a single batch like last night's (screw efficiency) I went a big bill, something like 9kg (single), an extended mash can help with a more fermentable wort, giving beta more time to cut up the longer chains, I was pushed for time and with my fly sparge ran off quicker than I normally would and was still running 1030 wort when I was at full boil volume, I knew this would be the case, sort of a partigyle but discarding the second gyle. 1075. Should finish 1014ish.
> 
> 're dex addition.. Added early can make the yeast lazy, added late can give them the legs to finish it all up nicely.


I doubt there would be much beta-amylase activity in the second hour at 72degrees. Maybe some but guessing it would be insignificant. I don't really understand why people mash at one temp, say low 60s for an hour and then increase to 70 for an extended period of time. If mashing in the low 60s then a 10 mins 70 mash will be sufficient to finish off sacchrification and make the wort less viscous. Anything more is a waste of time, unless someone can convience me otherwise.


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## Yob (13/7/13)

both enzymes are active throughout the temperature ranges, just more so at particular temps.

soooo.. more time at a lower temp will 'cut up' the longer chains of sugars. Starches are converted pretty quickly in a mash, it's the time spent at various temps that determines the type of sugars created. There is overlap between them. 

as stated above, I didnt mash for 72 for an hour, it was a step mash. 64/60 66/20 68/15 72/15 78/15 (or very close to it)... lots of overlap.

If you dont think a step mash can affect the composition of a wort.. try it on an infusion recipe you are familiar with.


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## JasonP (13/7/13)

Yob said:


> both enzymes are active throughout the temperature ranges, just more so at particular temps.
> 
> soooo.. more time at a lower temp will 'cut up' the longer chains of sugars. Starches are converted pretty quickly in a mash, it's the time spent at various temps that determines the type of sugars created. There is overlap between them.
> 
> ...


I'm familiar of mash enzymes and their optimum temperatures and know that they overlap. Alpha amylase is more heat resistant and is still very active at 70, but beta isn't so much. So i fail to see what the mix of your step mash would achieve. Both alpha and beta would be very active in the 60degree and 60mins at this temp should have converted all the starch. Increasing the temp into the 70s would only promote alpha not beta but since all starch should have been converted, then this is a waste of time and achieves nothing. It would make more sense it the step mash temperatures were shorter in time, but even then not sure why would would want 5 steps in a 14 degrees range.


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## Yob (13/7/13)

Starches are converted quite quickly in a mash, not that I do one but an iodine test will show this.. As to why? Coz I can and I perceive a benefit from it.


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## JasonP (13/7/13)

Yob said:


> Starches are converted quite quickly in a mash, not that I do one but an iodine test will show this.. As to why? Coz I can and I perceive a benefit from it.


I'm not meaning to be an arsehole, but merely trying to understand why people do this. I reckon if you analysed the carbohdrate profile after 60mins at 64degrees and after your mash out - there would be very little difference, hence why bother. As you said starch conversion is pretty quick and should be done after 30 mins at 64 degrees so i fail to see what the rest of your mash profile gives you.
Step mashing I understand for certain malts, but not for well modified barley and not in the temperature ranges that you step.


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## manticle (13/7/13)

60 min beta rest won't leave much for alpha. There's a finite amount of starch. Chop it all into short chains, you can't paste it back 
together
I'll mash low 60s for a maximum of 15-20 when I want a dry beer like a saison. If I want to add body to a beer I'll eithrr mash short at high temps or mash low briefly and high for longer.

Dextrins aren't particularly sweet in my experience and I've not noticed hangovers be more prominent from beers finishing higher.


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## manticle (13/7/13)

Jasonp - modified malts doesn't mean step mashes are ineffective but you are right about the times.


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## JasonP (13/7/13)

manticle said:


> Jasonp - modified malts doesn't mean step mashes are ineffective but you are right about the times.


 true. if the rest times were 15mins or so then maybe they'd be a difference, hence my original question of a 2 hour mash.


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## Yob (13/7/13)

Will be interesting to see how it turns out, a similar beer I did a few months back finished at 1020.. Big beer but felt it could have been drier.. 

Proof will be in the consumption and will happily eat my words if it fails to do what I hope/expect it to.

Its a big bill and don't do those times on a "regular" bill


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## Phoney (13/7/13)

Maybe it's just me but from my comparative analysis I have found bugger all benefit in step mashing over single infusion mashing. I've tried it with wheat beers, APA's IPA's, ESB's...I've never found it worth the extra effort of stuffing around vs the efficiency and end result.


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## JasonP (13/7/13)

Yob said:


> Will be interesting to see how it turns out, a similar beer I did a few months back finished at 1020.. Big beer but felt it could have been drier..
> 
> Proof will be in the consumption and will happily eat my words if it fails to do what I hope/expect it to.
> 
> Its a big bill and don't do those times on a "regular" bill


It probably will be drier (depending on what you did last time), but that will be due to the 60mins at 64degrees, not the rest of the mash profile.


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## manticle (14/7/13)

Yob - less beta time at lower temp, part of the fermentables from dex + dextrin/alpha rest and you should be able to get the balance yoy want.


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## /// (14/7/13)

phoneyhuh said:


> Maybe it's just me but from my comparative analysis I have found bugger all benefit in step mashing over single infusion mashing. I've tried it with wheat beers, APA's IPA's, ESB's...I've never found it worth the extra effort of stuffing around vs the efficiency and end result.


Helps me out on the big kits when I filter. A protein rest saves the filters if we run thru to sterile filter. A furulic acid rest will help with a wheat beer, the furulic acid is the precursor for ISA ( is it also for 4- vinyl, can't remember), notice an increase in ISA when I do it.

I'm still scratching my head about the sweet beer = bigger hangover idea. New one for me that one, just usually the booze and dehydration for me!


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## Pickaxe (23/7/13)

There could be a connection between sugar or sweetness and hangovers, but as /// states, it all had to do with dehydration, and you're getting that regardless, so more or less hangover? Totally subjective.


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## Pickaxe (23/7/13)

Coming from the point of view of a single infusion brewer only at this stage, what sort of variances are we taking about to dry out a beer, or sweet en it up. Would 64 be dry, or 62? For a standard 5kg 23l batch for eg. How much to thicken or sweeten a beer?
Or do you need to start to look at step mashing?


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## manticle (24/7/13)

See 65 -66 as a midpoint with 60 and 70 as your outside points. You can still get enzymatic activity outside these but it' s a good practical ballpark. Yeast choice and grain bill also have a big impact.


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## Thefatdoghead (24/7/13)

bcp said:


> About to a couple of american IPAs. I'm thinking that I want higher body with some residual sweetness to balance the IBUs, so was planning on high mash temperatures.
> 
> Just interested in others' experiences with american IPAs.
> 
> ...


Mitch Steele from Stone brewing will do 64 degrees for a few hours then mashout for his IPA's. Just watched a vid of him talking about his new book IPA. Quiet interesting. I have had great results with 53/5 62/20 68/40 72/10 mashout. Really nice body but still a really fermentable wort. I wouldn't go crystal in an IPA but thats a personal preference.


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## Yob (24/7/13)

Good book that one


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## ricardo (26/7/13)

Regarding the Alesmith IPA, here is the recipe from BYO courtesy of Peter Zien

*AleSmith IPA clone
(AleSmith Brewing Company)
(5 gallons/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.073 FG = 1.014
IBU = 93 SRM = 9 ABV = 7.6%

Ingredients*
14.66 lbs. (6.6 kg) Gambrinus 2-row pale malt
2.0 oz. (56 g) crystal malt (15 °L)
2.0 oz. (56 g) CaraPils malt (6 °L)
2.0 oz. (56 g) Munich malt (10 °L)
2.0 oz. (56 g) wheat malt
1.0 oz. (28 kg) honey malt
7.0 AAU Columbus hops (FWH) (0.5 oz./14 g of 14% alpha acids)
7.0 AAU Simcoe hops (FWH)(0.53 oz./15 g of 13% alpha acids)
3.25 AAU Columbus hops (60 mins) (0.23 oz./6.5 g of 14% alpha acids)
1.33 AAU Amarillo hops (30 mins)
(0.17 oz./4.8 g of 8.0% alpha acids)
2.25 AAU Simcoe hops (15 mins)
(0.17 oz./4.8 g of 13% alpha acids)
2.66 AAU Columbus hops (10 mins)
(0.19 oz./5.4 g of 14% alpha acids)
2 AAU Cascade hops (5 mins)
(0.4 oz./11 g of 5.0% alpha acids)
5 AAU Cascade hops (1 mins)
(1.0 oz./28 g of 5.0% alpha acids)
0.5 oz. (14 g) Columbus hops (dry hop)
0.5 oz. (14 g) Amarillo hops (dry hop)
0.5 oz. (14 g) Cascade hops (dry hop)
0.25 oz. (7 g) Simcoe hops (dry hop)
0.25 oz. (7 g) Chinook hops (dry hop)
1 tsp. Irish moss (15 mins)
White Labs WLP001(California Ale) 0.75 cups corn sugar (for priming)

*Step by Step*
Mash at 152 °F (67 °C) for 60 minutes. Boil for 90 minutes, following hop addition schedule. Whirlpool wort and let sit for 15 minutes before you begin cooling. Fermentation temperature 68.5 °F (20.3 °C).


_Thanks to Peter Zien of AleSmith for his extensive help in constructing this clone. _


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## BeerNess (26/7/13)

RE that Alesmith Recipe... I really can't see how 56g (<1% of grist) amounts of (low lovibond) malts are going to do anything except annoy you weighing them out? Sure 1% of Black Patent or other high Lovibond malts are useful in appropriate recipes, but on such a small scale at home those amounts seem like pissing on a bushfire to put it out. 

EDIT for clarity, I'm not meaning colour impact at all, I just can't see the small flavour differences in those light coloured malts being different enough to even be noticed or benificial to the recipe

wheat and carapils for body/head I can understand including, but i've never even noticed differences at less that 5% proportions... (the use of both in recipes is another bone i have with a lot of US recipes, MHB pointed out to me and i have found from my own experimentation on the matter that they seem to do the same things, so why bother using both?)


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## ricardo (26/7/13)

BeerNess said:


> RE that Alesmith Recipe... I really can't see how 56g (<1% of grist) amounts of (low lovibond) malts are going to do anything except annoy you weighing them out? Sure 1% of Black Patent or other high Lovibond malts are useful in appropriate recipes, but on such a small scale at home those amounts seem like pissing on a bushfire to put it out.
> 
> EDIT for clarity, I'm not meaning colour impact at all, I just can't see the small flavour differences in those light coloured malts being different enough to even be noticed or benificial to the recipe
> 
> wheat and carapils for body/head I can understand including, but i've never even noticed differences at less that 5% proportions... (the use of both in recipes is another bone i have with a lot of US recipes, MHB pointed out to me and i have found from my own experimentation on the matter that they seem to do the same things, so why bother using both?)


Yeah i get what your saying regarding the small amount for homebrew but i guess it must have been scaled down from whatever volumes of IPA Alesmith brew. Still i suppose <1% is the same in any recipe whatever volume!


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## mmmyummybeer (26/7/13)

:icon_offtopic: Sorry for slightly off topic but am interested in where the fact that sweet alcohol gives you a hang over comes from. Have never heard it before and would love to hear where it originated as in if it's quoted it in beer literature etc.. 

I would off assumed it would have been the other other way as I have heard that simple sugars such sucrose will produce higher alcohols as will higher ferment temps which is more likely to give a hangover. As sucrose is a very small chained sugar I would assume smaller chained maltose sugars would be similar than longer chained ones.





Kranky said:


> Higher mash temperatures give you longer chain sugars that yeast either struggle to consume or can't consume, which result in a sweeter beer. Sweet alcohol will give you a worse hangover than dry alcohol. Mash low and you can drink more. Russian River's iconic Pliny the Elder is mashed at 66.5C deliberately to produce a drier beer because Vinny Cilurzo doesn't like sweet alcohol, keep in mind that about 18 grams of hops per litre of finished beer are used for Pliny. Just down the road at Lagunitas you will find their IPA is mashed at 71C, and it's a superb beer. It's really a matter of preference at the end of the day.
> 
> I've never used that much crystal malt that it tasted like tin but I do know that too much crystal malt will kill off the the aromatic and flavour properties of PNW hops. It will depend on the grains that are used but much over 12% and you may start to encounter problems. Generally I wont use more than about 8% but if I'm trying to clone a beer and the recipe calls for it I will stick to the recipe.
> 
> The AleSmith IPA is a great beer but when I was in San Diego I preferred the Sculpin from Ballast Point.





Kranky said:


> If you want to make a beer that's close to the original the best starting point is the brewery website. They often have information that will give you some good hints at what sort of mash temperatures you should be using.
> 
> If you look at Bell's website you will see that they give the starting gravity at 1064 and the abv. is 7% so it would be a lower mash temp. http://www.bellsbeer.com/brands/info/2
> 
> ...


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## Yob (30/7/13)

Yob said:


> Will be interesting to see how it turns out, a similar beer I did a few months back finished at 1020.. Big beer but felt it could have been drier..
> 
> Proof will be in the consumption and will happily eat my words if it fails to do what I hope/expect it to.
> 
> Its a big bill and don't do those times on a "regular" bill


Here we are back at this one, I had a sneaky taste last night and it seems to have slowed / stopped at about 1020 *BUT* isnt as sweet as the AAAIPA Ive got kegged that stopped at a similar number, has finished drier but with enough residuals to give it plenty of body.

Will chuck some in a growler and bring it to the next meet for some sampling. (Not this one coming)

All in all, I feel that the long mash has helped, certainly seems that way anyhow. Both were similar grain bills and similar step temps, clearly with the latter being longer. (Boil time was longer in the Former)

Will be something I can see myself experimenting with a bit more for the higher gravity beers.

:icon_cheers:


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