# When a H.B. Shop should say "Kits and Bits" only!



## SJW (21/8/15)

I got to tell someone this story. I went to A local H.B. Shop just then to pick up some low alpha noble hops to bitter a Vienna I am doing on the weekend. I normally get EVERYTHING from Brewman on-line. Anyway I thought I had some Hallertau at home but I did not. So I have been into this guy a bit of late to help a bloke at work get started with kits and he keeps banging on how he has grain and hops and can clone any recipe blah blah blah.
So I dropped in to ask for 40g of Hallertau and also did he know the alpha Acid %. He looked at me and said, did I need to know exact or just roughly? So many things went through my head at once I was speechless. He said it should be between 2.5 and 5.5% but its not the German one. Then asked what it was for. I said an All Grain Vienna, he then suggested Northern brewer......... Still speechless I got my 40g of ......Hall.... and left.
I did say to him "how do people know how much hops to buy if you cant tell them the A/A %" then he was speechless as I left never to return.

Steve


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## Bribie G (21/8/15)

I'm sure he'd be able to tell you the difference between flavouring essences for Scotch or Bourbon.

I'm surprised your LHBS stocks hops, most of them do the hop teabags that are usually on a display out of the fridge. My favourite LHBS quote was from a guy on the Sunshine Coast, popped in to try and get some Morgans Lager Yeast when I was on holiday there, he only had Brew Cellar lager yeast, and on enquiring about what strain it was he gave me a lecture on the known fact that there are only four strains of brewing yeast in the whole World.

Well I never knew that, good information.


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## SJW (21/8/15)

Yeah, he has the tea bags and stuff. I think he is trying to cover all brewing bases but he is well out of his depth.


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## crowmanz (21/8/15)

Bribie G said:


> I'm surprised your LHBS stocks hops, most of them do the hop teabags that are usually on a display out of the fridge.


Luckily my LHBS has dry yeast in the fridge but only Safale/lager/brew I think they stock some others but they are on the shelf along with the hop tea bags.


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## antiphile (21/8/15)

It'd be funny if it weren't true, SJW. There are only 2 that I know of around Newcastle itself now; one at Charlestown and one at Islington. And the really depressing thing is, that tale of woe could well apply to either of them.


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## SJW (21/8/15)

antiphile said:


> It'd be funny if it weren't true, SJW. There are only 2 that I know of around Newcastle itself now; one at Charlestown and one at Islington. And the really depressing thing is, that tale of woe could well apply to either of them.


Yeah, maybe I should have gone up to ......... (I better not say) h34r:


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## Alex.Tas (21/8/15)

SJW said:


> I got to tell someone this story. I went to A local H.B. Shop just then to pick up some low alpha noble hops to bitter a Vienna I am doing on the weekend. I normally get EVERYTHING from Brewman on-line. Anyway I thought I had some Hallertau at home but I did not. So I have been into this guy a bit of late to help a bloke at work get started with kits and he keeps banging on how he has grain and hops and can clone any recipe blah blah blah.
> So I dropped in to ask for 40g of Hallertau and also did he know the alpha Acid %. He looked at me and said, did I need to know exact or just roughly? So many things went through my head at once I was speechless. He said it should be between 2.5 and 5.5% but its not the German one. Then asked what it was for. I said an All Grain Vienna, he then suggested Northern brewer......... Still speechless I got my 40g of ......Hall.... and left.
> I did say to him "how do people know how much hops to buy if you cant tell them the A/A %" then he was speechless as I left never to return.
> 
> Steve


Sounds like Bribie might be on the money with the remark about knowing more about the spirit additives.

I imagine the margins are pretty low in home brew supply stores and it is incredibly tough to run one when you are competing against online shops that can deliver the goods without the overheads involved with operating a traditional shop. I'll admit i have no real idea as to what percentage of sales made in lhbs are made to all grain brewers, or at least brewers who aren't just using kit + kilo. But i would imagine it isn't a large percentage. (would be awesome if a retailer on here could drop some rough figures in here). 
If the demand for knowledge beyond Kit and Kilo isn't high enough, then the store may not (unfortunately for all grain brewers) see the value in seeking staff with more in depth knowledge.
Attracting the right staff who have the knowledge could also be tough too, perhaps you spoke with a rookie at the store? It would be a shame if you didn't ever go there again based on this particular visit.

I'll admit i don't always shop local, but its always good to head into your local store and support them where you can. I suppose I'm lucky that we have an awesome home brew shop in Hobart with super helpful staff and competitive (if not better) prices than what is available online.

It would be a shame if Newcastle only had one home brew store.


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## warra48 (21/8/15)

Bribie G said:


> gave me a lecture on the known fact that there are only four strains of brewing yeast in the whole World.
> 
> Well I never knew that, good information.


Simple facts for even simpler minds.....


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## SJW (21/8/15)

Alex.Tas said:


> Sounds like Bribie might be on the money with the remark about knowing more about the spirit additives.
> 
> I imagine the margins are pretty low in home brew supply stores and it is incredibly tough to run one when you are competing against online shops that can deliver the goods without the overheads involved with operating a traditional shop. I'll admit i have no real idea as to what percentage of sales made in lhbs are made to all grain brewers, or at least brewers who aren't just using kit + kilo. But i would imagine it isn't a large percentage. (would be awesome if a retailer on here could drop some rough figures in here).
> If the demand for knowledge beyond Kit and Kilo isn't high enough, then the store may not (unfortunately for all grain brewers) see the value in seeking staff with more in depth knowledge.
> ...


We had one of the best in the business, MHB Marks Homebrew, from memory he gave away selling the kits and essences as there was so little money to be made from them, when people could go to Coles or K Mart and buy the kits for not much less than he bought them for. Anyway he sold the business to Steve "Brewman" who is a little out of town but like Mark has an excellent knowledge of grain brewing and only sells All Grain Supplies. While we would all love a quality shop front homebrew shop close by, the reality is they must not be a viable money making concern.


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## blotto (21/8/15)

SJW said:


> While we would all love a quality shop front homebrew shop close by, the reality is they must not be a viable money making concern.


Most home brewers (Myself included) are always hunting for a bargain, cheaper prices and arranging bulk buys, we're inherently bad for small businesses running on tight margins IMO.


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## earle (21/8/15)

LHBS's can't compete on price selling the same kits as the supermarkets. If they can offer good advice though, people will pay the extra to buy from somewhere they can get good advice and have a yarn with someone knowledgeable about brewing. Combine higher prices with no knowledge and you've got a losing combination.


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## Barge (21/8/15)

Luckily my LHBS is craftbrewer! Capalaba for the win!


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## Weizguy (21/8/15)

SJW said:


> Yeah, maybe I should have gone up to ......... (I better not say) h34r:


I feel you were going to say East Maitland... I'm sure Brewman would not be too upset with you, considering the circumstances.



SJW said:


> We had one of the best in the business, MHB Marks Homebrew, from memory he gave away selling the kits and essences as there was so little money to be made from them, when people could go to Coles or K Mart and buy the kits for not much less than he bought them for. Anyway he sold the business to Steve "Brewman" who is a little out of town but like Mark has an excellent knowledge of grain brewing and only sells All Grain Supplies. While we would all love a quality shop front homebrew shop close by, the reality is they must not be a viable money making concern.


I actually visited Steve today (not too far from my house @ Medowie), and he does have a range of liquid and dry extracts, so not limited to grain, but mostly for brewers with a boiler anyway.
I plan to buy some Briess liquid wheat extract from him soon, for an easy brewday with a mate from work.


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## Vini2ton (21/8/15)

Like most people, I don't expect to be bullshitted to by someone who really doesn't know their stuff and just pretend they do. I find that now in most retail that if people can't answer your question, they just make shit up. Don't get me started.


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## antiphile (21/8/15)

The Novocastrians who regularly shop locally (and I know a few), seem to have very little knowledge, unfortunately. I honestly just can't bring myself to do it since Mark closed (and I'm excluding the other that SJW said was a little out of town).

Shop 1: Is owned by a husband/wife team. Dry yeast has never seen the inside of a fridge, and liquid yeast doesn't exist. I went in one day wanting S23. I inconvenienced the wife asking for it because she (the only one in the shop), had to go to all the trouble of saving the computer game she was playing, before she could serve me. "No, they don't make that anymore" was the reply. "Let's see what they recommend now. Ahh, here it is. Mangrove Jacks Bohemian Lager". I shoot you not! I really should have picked that up as a huge red sign, but a few months later I went back because it was so convenient to my place. She had progressed to some other computer game and hubby again not to be found. Damn! (Of course, this was several years ago and I hadn't learned the ncessity to keep good stocks properly on-hand at home). "Ahhh. sorry to disturb you from your important work." I was wanting some medium crystal for an extract at that time. "Do you keep grain in stock?" "Yes, we have all three!" Huh? "We have this one called crystal, and I think there's normal crystal. And the other one, let me check. Oh yeah, we have roasted". She walked to the back of the shop-front, and in open halves of cardboard boxes, were 2 opened grey (Coles-type) plastic shopping bags, and one opened clear plastic bag, sitting directly on the floor under some shelves. I thanked her and told her it wasn't what I was after and walked out. never been back.

Shop 2: only marginally better. Yeast kept on front counter, but at least some of the hops are kept in a tiny freezer compartment in a normal domestic fridge. However, they do sometimes offer a taster of a homebrew on tap that is kept in the main part of the fridge. And, you don't feel as though you are necessarily going to get hepatitis by walking in, so that's a plus. There's a range of about 4 or 5 specialty malts but really only designed for Kits, and probably 5 or 6 types of hops with half of them refridgerated. But, a great place if you want to buy cheese making equipment or making your own beef jerky.

Sorry all, but I don't think it would be a loss if both had to close down. I just can't bring myself to get anything from them, and in an emergency it looks like a 90 min round trip to Brewman might be needed.


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## SBOB (21/8/15)

Les the Weizguy said:


> I feel you were going to say East Maitland... I'm sure Brewman would not be too upset with you, considering the circumstances.


While I do prefer Brewman, Digga at Country Brewer in East Maitland does have an decent setup compared to the two in Newcastle and with their 10% store credit it softens some of the slightly expensive yeast/hop pricing...but they do have a decent selection of hops and dry/wyeast in their fridge
Their 25kg sacks of basic base malt (like JW Ale and Pilsner) for $60 are good value ($54 considering you get 10% as credit for the next time), but their pre-packaged hops arent the cheapest and no 'off the shelf' option for specialty grains that aren't pre-cracked and pre-packaged does make them a less ideal choice than Brewman for all grain supplies


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## Ducatiboy stu (21/8/15)

In all honesty, there are just not enough AG/BIAB brewers around to warrant a small HB shop keeping dedicated supplies for them.

Why, as a shop owner would you keep a stock of liquid yeast if you probably only sell 2 -3 per year, and then cop flock for it being old and out of date


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## Fylp (21/8/15)

Shit! I never realised how spoiled I am living 5min from ESB.


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## Mr B (21/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> In all honesty, there are just not enough AG/BIAB brewers around to warrant a small HB shop keeping dedicated supplies for them.
> 
> Why, as a shop owner would you keep a stock of liquid yeast if you probably only sell 2 -3 per year, and then cop flock for it being old and out of date



That is true. And brewers of whatever ilk are quite rare. 

A mate of mine, despite all my 'fantastic' advice, apparently makes beer of a somewhat mouldy ilk.

He has given up.

The other brewers I have known over the last 15 years are but two in person, both making beer, one of a dubious quality.

It take some reading and investment to make good beer (without boast, my beer is regarded as good), most dont make the investment.

Hence the investment in ingredients is small.

To get to make good beer, the investment is generally significant. In both gear and knowledge.

If you read a bit, it is generally not local both due to availability and price.

So, living in a regional town, I think I am trying to get that you farkers with cheap ingredients and gear sark!

Heh

But I spread the wealth, give away heaps of beers, keep the dream (or the lawn chunder cause its usually IPA, need to make some mids for the XXXXX) 

Edit: But it is important to support the local brew suppliers where you can, especially with bulk grain, which I do. BTW, My local Craftbrewer is a champion establishment, all sacks of grain and yeast packs (admittedly subsequently propagated) are local.


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## SJW (21/8/15)

antiphile said:


> The Novocastrians who regularly shop locally (and I know a few), seem to have very little knowledge, unfortunately. I honestly just can't bring myself to do it since Mark closed (and I'm excluding the other that SJW said was a little out of town).
> Shop 1: Is owned by a husband/wife team. Dry yeast has never seen the inside of a fridge, and liquid yeast doesn't exist. I went in one day wanting S23. I inconvenienced the wife asking for it because she (the only one in the shop), had to go to all the trouble of saving the computer game she was playing, before she could serve me. "No, they don't make that anymore" was the reply. "Let's see what they recommend now. Ahh, here it is. Mangrove Jacks Bohemian Lager". I shoot you not! I really should have picked that up as a huge red sign, but a few months later I went back because it was so convenient to my place. She had progressed to some other computer game and hubby again not to be found. Damn! (Of course, this was several years ago and I hadn't learned the ncessity to keep good stocks properly on-hand at home). "Ahhh. sorry to disturb you from your important work." I was wanting some medium crystal for an extract at that time. "Do you keep grain in stock?" "Yes, we have all three!" Huh? "We have this one called crystal, and I think there's normal crystal. And the other one, let me check. Oh yeah, we have roasted". She walked to the back of the shop-front, and in open halves of cardboard boxes, were 2 opened grey (Coles-type) plastic shopping bags, and one opened clear plastic bag, sitting directly on the floor under some shelves. I thanked her and told her it wasn't what I was after and walked out. never been back.
> Shop 2: only marginally better. Yeast kept on front counter, but at least some of the hops are kept in a tiny freezer compartment in a normal domestic fridge. However, they do sometimes offer a taster of a homebrew on tap that is kept in the main part of the fridge. And, you don't feel as though you are necessarily going to get hepatitis by walking in, so that's a plus. There's a range of about 4 or 5 specialty malts but really only designed for Kits, and probably 5 or 6 types of hops with half of them refridgerated. But, a great place if you want to buy cheese making equipment or making your own beef jerky.
> Sorry all, but I don't think it would be a loss if both had to close down. I just can't bring myself to get anything from them, and in an emergency it looks like a 90 min round trip to Brewman might be needed.


Yup, +1 to all the above.
I think there are home brewers and home brewers. So many guys I know say "oh yeah I brew too" with the cheapest out of date kit and 1 or 2 kgs of CSR sugar and ferment on a heat pad all year round. I have learnt just to nod my head and agree. I have pointed a few to my YouTube brew videos on BigTed ManShed and that's the last I hear from them.
I am putting the time into a guy at work who just put down his second kit + kg but unless you are self motivated to learn the basic science it's very draining to teach someone the art of beer.

Ps. I forgot about the East Maitland brew shop, is it a Countey Brewer? Might check it out. Brewman is still the best though.


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## desitter (22/8/15)

Went into a highly reputable Melbourne HBS the other week looking for some insight into the passivation of stainless steel, particularly the Stainless Brew-Buckets which they themselves stock (when available). The manufacturer recommends a Star-San soak, but I was hoping to get some more insight into other methods of acid passivation, since they sold lactic, phosphoric, and citric acid. Guy looked at me confused and said he had never heard of needing to passivate stainless steel... So not sure what to make of that.

I've been pretty impressed though with Wallington's WRG in Ocean Grove, just out of Geelong, They operate under "Country Trading Store" on ebay I believe, which I reckon contributes significantly to their ability to stock a good selection of grain, hops, and equipment, with good turnover; despite their location. So that might be an avenue other struggling HBS should be investigating. They lack liquid yeast though (at least of the White-labs and Wyeast variety, no problem though if you culture your own).

Geelong city center HBS is most definitely a "Kits and Bits" store to stay clear of. I went their when I was younger and first interested in homebrewing, and not being the studious type at the time I relied on their 'expertise' to get me started, rather than the literature available today. Nice enough guy, but it's all kit and kilo stuff, of which I made about four awful batches that resulted in me being put off the hobby for a very long time. :angry2: I went in about 12 years later and nothing has changed, I reckon some of the same kits are still on the shelves. I don't recall seeing a refrigerator, nor any yeast that wasn't stuck to the bottom of an extract can lid. Plenty of Still-spirit essences though.


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## Kingy (22/8/15)

Yea i dont bother with the said local shops. Everything comes from online. Also if someone at work is talking about home brew in the lunch room i don't even open my mouth and get involved. Its the same with gym junkies. Some one else's way is always the only way to do it. I don't give advice and i don't expect it unless i ask for it. When mhb shut down i nearly gave up brewing. Brewman has made it viable again and the shed is in full operation.


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## BradG (22/8/15)

Geelong hbs is good for kits and basic extract brewing, having a couple of packaged spec grains, lme, dme, and yeasts are in the fridge behind the counter. If I need grains for a steep I'm off to wallington though.


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## Mozz (22/8/15)

Darwin Brewers can now rejoice in the fact that the local microbrewery - 1 Mile Brewery is now selling grain to the public. YEhaaa. 
We've also got a long established kits and bits shop here that's been operating for some time. I went in one day (only buy cleaning agent there now) and an older bloke had just invested in a hand pump (not particularly cheap either) to gas his kegs on the advice of the bloke behind the counter.! Couldn't help but explain to the bloke that it might just root all his beer unless he plans to drink out his kegs in a few days. He was grateful for the advice.
1 Mile Brewery are still in the early days but I hope Darwin Brewers get behind them so we can begin to source quality ingredients locally without the Darwin Tax (freight) which otherwise doubles the costs.


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## Judanero (22/8/15)

+1 satisfied Brewman customer, I from time to time (when unprepared and in a rush for starter build up) do get some LDME from the shop near where Marks used to be, and that is the extent of my involvement there.

The bloke that runs it is nice enough but when I asked him a couple yeast questions namely pertaining to viability and use in big beers I realised that he was ill-equipped to answer effectively (and I do have enough text books that if not lazy I could just look up the answers myself).

Brewmans delivery service is A+ and prices beyond reasonable.. Very glad that he picked up where Mark left off- now just for more time to brew!


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## Moad (22/8/15)

I have found Kirk to be friendly and accommodating, I don't think brewers on this forum would really be his target market. He is there to supply the kits and bits brewers and can get grain in for you with some lead time. I will go and buy the odd corny disconnect or hose etc because it is convenient to have this stuff locally. If he has offered the wrong advice then that isn't good but you can't bag someone out because they don't stock what you want.

+1 for Brewman. If you can plan a day or two ahead and want quality, fresh supplies then put your order in with Steve (Brewman), I regularly get my delivery the day after ordering. I can't imagine anyone would have anything negative to say about Steve's service.


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## pist (22/8/15)

+2 for brewman. Unless im after something that steve does not sell, i will not buy from anyone else. Exceptional service, unbeatable pricing and steve always goes above and beyond to ensure you get what you need.


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## WitWonder (22/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> In all honesty, there are just not enough AG/BIAB brewers around to warrant a small HB shop keeping dedicated supplies for them.
> 
> Why, as a shop owner would you keep a stock of liquid yeast if you probably only sell 2 -3 per year, and then cop flock for it being old and out of date


I think this is part of the issue - the range required (or rather 'expected') by AG brewers is large and given most items have a finite shelf life it's ridiculous to think your LHBS is going to stock everything for what would be a tiny market. Similarly ridiculous is the notion that a store owner is a PhD-researched expert in every product he or she sells. If I can get good service and reasonable prices I'm not going to whinge and not go back because they guy doesn't stock the entire Wyeast AND White labs liquid yeasts, I'm wanting convenience - if I wasn't I'd just buy online. Most guys in your LHBS should be able to help out new kit brewers and first time AG brewers with a bit of generic advice, but that's about it. 

I generally buy grain and yeast locally and hops in bulk direct from the US once a year. Seems to work for me. I do my research on this thing called the internet.


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## Judanero (22/8/15)

WitWonder said:


> I do my research on this thing called the internet.


Inter-net? Sounds suspicious. h34r:


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## Ducatiboy stu (22/8/15)

desitter said:


> Went into a highly reputable Melbourne HBS the other week looking for some insight into the passivation of stainless steel, particularly the Stainless Brew-Buckets which they themselves stock (when available).


You went into a HBS and asked a question about passivation of stainless steel

You got the answer you deserved.


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## Benn (22/8/15)

As far as Homebrew Shops go, I'd rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them.
If Ol Mate wants to stock his shop like it's 1985 then good luck to him :wacko:


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## super_simian (22/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You went into a HBS and asked a question about passivation of stainless steel
> 
> You got the answer you deserved.


+1 This and not knowing dark crystal from choc are worlds apart. One is understandable, the other not so much...


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## desitter (23/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> You went into a HBS and asked a question about passivation of stainless steel
> 
> You got the answer you deserved.


As I said, the question was specifically about the Brew-Bucket product *which they stock. *The information sheet that comes with the product states specifically that the product should be passivated. Anyone who has researched the Brew-Bucket before making a purchase will have come across this information, and likely has further questions regarding the method like I did. I don't see how this is an unreasonable request to make of the person who is selling that very product. I would understand if they knew nothing of method *other* than that specified by the manufacture, but is it not reasonable to expect at least some rudimentary understanding about the required setup methods of the product they themselves are selling? I would expect them to know how to clean and prepare a used keg, as well as setup a temperature controller, or filtration system, or any other of their products. Why not this one?

I don't think the snarkiness is necessary either.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

How many people do you know that even know about passivation.

You cant readily buy the paste ( apart from specialist engineering shops ) so what hope is a HBS shop guy got

Not everyone knows everything about every product they sell.


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## Spohaw (23/8/15)

Home brew shop next town over is a great little shop when you need something straight away but all the advice they can give would be for kits

Not complaining because they have ordered everything I have asked for and it turned up pretty quick

Kept laughing when the guy didn't know that wheat was for beer too .... He kept asking if it was for my chooks haha

Mind you up until 2 years ago I couldn't tell you much about how beer is made or the ingredients in it apart from "malt and hops" so it's a little unfair to expect a worker at the home brew joint to know everything .......

So now i don't really ask questions unless it is asking to order in something

Great little home brew shop though !


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## Weizguy (23/8/15)

desitter said:


> As I said, the question was specifically about the Brew-Bucket product *which they stock. *The information sheet that comes with the product states specifically that the product should be passivated. Anyone who has researched the Brew-Bucket before making a purchase will have come across this information, and likely has further questions regarding the method like I did. I don't see how this is an unreasonable request to make of the person who is selling that very product. I would understand if they knew nothing of method *other* than that specified by the manufacture, but is it not reasonable to expect at least some rudimentary understanding about the required setup methods of the product they themselves are selling? I would expect them to know how to clean and prepare a used keg, as well as setup a temperature controller, or filtration system, or any other of their products. Why not this one?


I'd expect the shop to be able to support their sales range. Maybe only to regurgitate the supporting documentation that comes with the stuff they sell.
I'm not sure I'd be happy to return to a shop that has given me poor advice without hesitation, or doesn't have internet access or has it but is not willing to use it to try and support their customers and product range.

I can see that a shop that isn't prepared to do some web-searching for me at point-of-sale is either poorly equipped to survive, or is maybe afraid that I'll steal some kit cans and some liquor flavouring and disappear out the door while they're distracted.
That's another reason why MHB dropped the kits and distilling flavours. Seems, in my opinion, those products attract the wrong type of people (not all, but some are tight-arse booze-hounds who like to get things cheap and there;s nothing cheaper than a five-finger discount at walkaway prices).


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## desitter (23/8/15)

> How many people do you know that even know about passivation.



I don't believe it's as unheard of as you seem to think it is. Nor is it a specialised process requiring hard to find materials. Google/wiki stainless passivation to find that the most common methods are acid-baths/washes, with a Nitric or Citric acid mixture. The Brew-Bucket manufacture suggests a simple 1 oz Star-San (phosphoric acid) to 1 gallon water soak for 20 minuets. Palmer on Brew-strong and in his literature suggests a simple clean to expose the surface and allow passivation with the air to occur naturally. These methods and materials are easily available to the average homebrewer, and like I mentioned, even sold at this establishment. Given this, I thought at the time, and continue to think that it's completely reasonable to ask about what method the supplier suggests for the product they sell, and to expect at least some basic information, even if it is just repeating what the manufacturer recommends. That was my point, one which you don't seem to agree with, which is fine, hopefully we can at least agree to disagree.


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## tugger (23/8/15)

Here in sw Sydney we have it made. 
The local hb shop has kits bits equipment loads of grains liquid and dry yeasts even the new pure pitch, hops galore all kept in the fridge with the yeasts. The manager is an award winning home brewer with a great attitude, knows all the customers by name and will order in anything you ask for. 
He is also willing to spend hours talking shit about brewing. 
What more could you ask for.


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## Coalminer (23/8/15)

Why would they have to repeat what the manufacturer recommends. Surely that info would come in the accompanying documentation if the process was necessary. If the maker could not supply that info then I would be pissed off


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## Weizguy (23/8/15)

Not saying they should have to repeat it, but should be aware of what the manufacturer provides as documentation. Sometimes paperwork is not included, or customers miss it or ignore it.
What I'm saying is that it's the bare minimum that the shop should be able to provide, and if they can't...


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

Coalminer said:


> Why would they have to repeat what the manufacturer recommends. Surely that info would come in the accompanying documentation if the process was necessary. If the maker could not supply that info then I would be pissed off


Exactly

Just because a retailer sells something doesnt automatically make them an expert on the product, nor do they need to be

Go to a paint shop ( Bunninks )and buy some paint. The guy behind the counter probably has no idea about the application so you need to read the manufacturers recommendations and contact them if you have further issues.

If there are manufactures instructions then follow them and take it up with the manufacturer. I to agree that is the manufacturer who is the one to supply the more detailed info and technical support ( and warranty )

If you buy a new car and its faulty you dont take it up with the bloke who sold it to you, you take it up with the vehicle manufacturer ( who will then advise taking to anyone of *their* dealers )


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## desitter (23/8/15)

I think it's been expressed strongly enough that we're not suggesting anyone be required to be an 'expert', and it's a very dishonest attempt at a strawman to assert otherwise.

Isn't whether or not the HBS are able to meet the needs of their customers at the very heart of what's being discussed in this thread? There's a higher expectation for HBS. If HBS weren't able to instruct their customers in the benefits and use of their products, then those customers would probably give up the hobby before they even began. Hence there's a *reasonable expectation* that the guy selling the product should know more about it than the customer, and will be available to field reasonable questions, even if the answers are only on par with the manufacture's recommendations. This is the very merit, or lack thereof, by which half the comments in this thread passing judgment upon their LHBS are predicated upon! If I came in looking for advice on the parts and assembly of a simple kegging system, but was only meet with a shrug of the shoulders by the guy selling the equipment, then I would be completely justified in respectfully leaving and giving that business a wide berth in future. I expect a HBS worth its salt to know what it is they are selling, and how it is used, and I believe most people would feel and expect the same. This whole car dealership red-herring is a faulty comparison, it's apples and oranges. If I buy a dodgy temp controller from a HBS, I take it back and get a new one, not call up the no-name Chinese factory looking for a replacement. Just not a good comparison, and hardly relevant.

Bottom line is this thread seemed to be about people's HBS 'horror' stories, trivial or otherwise. I threw in my 2c like everyone else. You, apparently had some unfounded preconceptions about passivation being some advanced topic out of reach of the homebrewer, and decided that I 'deserved what I got', as if I had somehow offended you personally, therefore warranting such a snarky comment. I hope I have made my reasoning clear, and that you can appreciate that the methods of passivation are well within the realm of possibility for the most basic of homebrewers looking to prolong the life of their expensive stainless equipment. And that it is a *perfectly reasonable* topic to broach with your local HBS selling stainless steel products. If it's a topic that you have not taken an interest in, that does not mean others haven't.

Appendix B, How To Brew (an *Introductory* text for *new brewers*) covers passivation.
Google searches will lead to articles in BYO on the topic, as well as tonnes of homebrewtalk posts asking for the best methods.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l21T_dPbNw

I don't see much more value in continuing the discussion if it continues as it has, so I'll leave it at that and cease high-jacking this thread for argument sake.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

Maybe your expectations are different to what most people would expect


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## Kingy (23/8/15)

Its like a local pub i go to and sample craft beer. Its a great place with good beers and the owner has good taste. They recently got there own 'branded' name pale ale on tap. Upon asking a few questions about where it is brewed he wanted to keep it a secret for some unknown reason. Then i asked him what hops where used as i really liked the sample. And the answer was that he didnt really know and trys not to get to much involved in it?. 
I still go there for the good beers but dont engage in much beer talk especially about the unknown hop secretly brewed pale ale.

then theres the said local brew shop that tried to sell me an ale yeast (off the counter,unrefridgerated) with a 'lager'BOCK'fresh wort kit. 
I go there when desperate and need a hydromoter or something urgent. 
fake it till ya make it i suppose.
Like come on what sort of home brew shop doesnt store yeast in the fridge in 2015.
I just prefer to go to the pub/homebrew shop/halfway house and get my gear and move on instead of listening to someone dribble on with shit advice. 
This probably should of went in the continuing rant thread lol.
I feel better now anyway. Cheers.


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## Ducatiboy stu (23/8/15)

Kingy said:


> .
> Like come on what sort of home brew shop doesnt store yeast in the fridge in 2015.


A lot actually.

And the majority of home brewers would not care anyway. It would be hard enough just to get them to try a different yeasts, yet alone getting the HBS owner to look after it properly.

There are still those out there who swear by sodium met.....And and extra kilo of sugar to make it stronger...


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## SJW (24/8/15)

WOW, This thread took on a life of its own. Anyway after reading all the posts my opinion has changed a little of the shop in question. I brewed with the 40g of hops I bought from him on the weekend and they appeared to be exactly the same as the fresh Hallertau I got from Steve (Brewman) Same colour, smell, moisture content ect. Regardless I should not have assumed the worst, as he may well of sold me a fine product, even though he new nothing about it.
He must be doing ok with the shop as it always has people in there buying a kit and a KG of Dextrose and a few grams of hops for a tea bag. If people are happy making this beer good on them. Personally I hate the beer he serves as a sample of what he sells, it really tastes like bland, old school homebrew dad use to make, fermented at 30 deg and gasses up like coke.
I think in the HB world we are the minority.


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## Bribie G (24/8/15)

It's a pity that LHBS owners don't get a firm grasp of brewing principles because you can actually make drinkable beer from the products they sell.
For example I was in the Taree LHBS a few weeks ago and bought some MJ Bo Pils yeast. On impulse (what a wild life I have ) I picked up a tin of MJ lager and kilo of amber Brew Enhancer. I added a tub of maltose syrup and 12g of Citra.
Fermented at 13 which was ambient at the time.
Then I lagered at 4 for a couple of weeks and kegged.
It's turned out a refreshing and clean job more reminiscent of some pub brews like Kosciusko due to the amber mix and the small hop addition. 
I'll make this one again as a lazy arse keg filler.

However I could just as easily have chucked a tin of Coopers and a kilo of sugaz into the FV with the tin yeast and fermented in the garage next to the door that gets hot in the sun and produced a keg of swill.

The point is that I got my knowledge from AHB and other resources but not one iota from LHBS operators.


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## GalBrew (24/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Maybe your expectations are different to what most people would expect


I think in this case if the LHBS described in the story is the one I am thinking of, they have a reasonable range of products for AG brewing, but I will be fucked if any of the staff even have the slightest clue about brewing beer.


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## SJW (24/8/15)

GalBrew said:


> I think in this case if the LHBS described in the story is the one I am thinking of, they have a reasonable range of products for AG brewing, but I will be fucked if any of the staff even have the slightest clue about brewing beer.


LOL :blink: That's my impression.


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## pcmfisher (24/8/15)

Bribie G said:


> It's a pity that LHBS owners don't get a firm grasp of brewing principles because you can actually make drinkable beer from the products they sell.
> For example I was in the Taree LHBS a few weeks ago and bought some MJ Bo Pils yeast. On impulse (what a wild life I have ) I picked up a tin of MJ lager and kilo of amber Brew Enhancer. I added a tub of maltose syrup and 12g of Citra.
> Fermented at 13 which was ambient at the time.
> Then I lagered at 4 for a couple of weeks and kegged.
> ...


And if that is how you have always done it, there aint no information from AHB or your local brew shop that will make you change your ways.


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## mosto (24/8/15)

Don't always assume what is on the shelf is all they have in stock. My 'local' HBS (it's an hour away, so not overly local) doesn't look overly exciting to an AG brewer when you walk in. It's a Country Brewer franchise with lots of kits on the shelves up one end, a shit load of essences down the other and a few bags of spec grains, dextrose, brew enhancers etc in between. However, if I ring or email them beforehand, they'll get a 25kg bag of base malt in and have been able to get most strains of yeast in that I've asked for. I've never hit them up for advice as I mostly get advice from AHB, so don't know about their brewing knowledge. They do seem quite passionate about brewing though, they're friendly, and as I said, can order most things in that I require. Given the distance I really only go there when I'm out of base malt or need my gas bottle refilled, but I try to stock up a bit when I do go.


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## pcmfisher (24/8/15)

On the other hand, you could just imagine the amount of half cocked internet knowledge and "I've been doing it for 40 years" knowledge that gets imparted on brew shop owners everyday from customers.

No wonder they can't decide to put their yeast in the fridge.


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## Moad (24/8/15)

I wonder if they would tell you to rehydrate or not...


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## gap (24/8/15)

> I wonder if they would tell you to rehydrate or not...


Depends if you tell them you are feeling a bit dry


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## Spiesy (24/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> How many people do you know that even know about passivation.
> 
> You cant readily buy the paste ( apart from specialist engineering shops ) so what hope is a HBS shop guy got
> 
> Not everyone knows everything about every product they sell.


That's dumb. If you're selling gear worth hundreds of dollars you should at least know how it needs to be prepped before use.


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## Steve (24/8/15)

tugger said:


> Here in sw Sydney we have it made.
> The local hb shop has kits bits equipment loads of grains liquid and dry yeasts even the new pure pitch, hops galore all kept in the fridge with the yeasts. The manager is an award winning home brewer with a great attitude, knows all the customers by name and will order in anything you ask for.
> He is also willing to spend hours talking shit about brewing.
> What more could you ask for.


I would ask them to store their hops in the freezer


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## antiphile (24/8/15)

butisitart said:


> i go to craftbrewer capalaba for grains, and annerley for service. capalaba has great staff, and a completely egoblown wank for a manager. so if you can avoid him, it's all good.if you ask him a question on anything about gear, systems etc, he'll run you down like you've got the iq of a lobotomised frog then pump up his own tyres.


Sounds very familiar. I dropped in there (Capalaba) in early July to have a look around, see the range, grab a SS temp gauge and thermowell, plate chiller, several metres of good silicon tube, and several other bits and bobs. It's nice to know who you're dealing with on the phone IMHO. (Not a Qld native, but spending about a third of the time there the last few years for several reasons). I guess it was a 45 min drive each way from Chapel Hill.

For most of the stuff I had a really nice young guy (perhaps with a slight stutter) who served me. He was more than willing to help as much as he possibly could, but he didn't appear dreadfully knowlegeable or maybe he was a bit new to the game. Yet I really liked him for his attitude and willingness to assist. At the end, I asked what washer he recommended for the thermowell, and he said he wasn't certain but would get someone who'd know (and no-one can criticise him for honesty and openess). He got "the boss"!

The sergeant-major came out, looked me up and down, and seemed to size me up as a blithering half-wit. Perhaps he's very perceptive! But the upshot of his lecturing was I had to use particular silicone washers, and he marched them over to the young guy totalling the bill, then went back to his computer in the glassed office behind the counter without further ado. IIRC, the cost was $207 or very close. I jokingly said "let's call it $200" and was grabbing 4 X $50 to put down. This is often accepted at many places but in no way is a deal breaker.Well, the young guy got a look horror on his face and said he'd go and ask.

Sure enough, the sergeant major came back out and I said the same thing to him. He looked at the cash register screen looked at me with derision, and told me "it's not that you're buying 10 of everything! If you insist, I'll give you one of the washers for free!", and stormed off. I was gobsmacked. I was also really pissed off at his tone and the way I was treated. All I could do was to genuinely apologise to the nice guy and thank him for all his help, tell him I'd get it elsewhere when I got home, and walk out stunned. He also was very embarassed by the look of it. So unfortunately, no Craft Brewer for me.

PS. At least it wasn't a totally wasted drive. I did the grocery shopping at the Capalaba shopping centre on the way home. And it is absolutely huuuuuge.


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## Bribie G (24/8/15)

All the stores I have dealt with including Brewman, ESB Peakhurst shop, Country Brewer and of course CraftBrewer keep their hops in the fridge or a cool room.

Hey that isn't Ross's Craftbrewer you are referring to, on Christine Place in the industrial estate? Wow doesn't sound like the CB I know.
Or are you referring to Tru Brew at Capalaba on Old Cleveland Road?


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## GalBrew (24/8/15)

Bribie G said:


> All the stores I have dealt with including Brewman, ESB Peakhurst shop, Country Brewer and of course CraftBrewer keep their hops in the fridge or a cool room.


Yeah, I have never pulled a bag of hops out of a freezer at any homebrew shop anywhere.


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## Steve (24/8/15)

Wierd. I thought it was standard practice to store them in the freezer? Have I been mistaken these past 20 years?


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## GalBrew (24/8/15)

They go straight in the freezer once they get home!


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## antiphile (24/8/15)

Bribie G said:


> All the stores I have dealt with including Brewman, ESB Peakhurst shop, Country Brewer and of course CraftBrewer keep their hops in the fridge or a cool room.
> 
> Hey that isn't Ross's Craftbrewer you are referring to, on Christine Place in the industrial estate? Wow doesn't sound like the CB I know.
> Or are you referring to Tru Brew at Capalaba on Old Cleveland Road?


Yep, Bribie. I checked the location in Google Maps on my phone - it was Christine Place. Maybe he was peed off about something before I got there (or because I got there), but I'm not going back to check.

The reason I went was it looked like he had a huge range (according to the website) and I wanted to check it out. I nomally get all my stuff delivered from Barleyman (who I can't criticise in any possible way and I'm supremely happy with), but it must be incredibly expensive for anyone to stock everything everyone wants (especially for a business that's relatively young).


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## crowmanz (24/8/15)

antiphile said:


> For most of the stuff I had a really nice young guy (perhaps with a slight stutter) who served me.


 I've been served by that bloke before, back in March when I was there, nice bloke and we had a good chat.




GalBrew said:


> Yeah, I have never pulled a bag of hops out of a freezer at any homebrew shop anywhere.


National homebrew have a big walk in freezer in store. I've never gotten hops out of it because I order online and make Martin go into the cold to get the hops.


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## HBHB (24/8/15)

crowmanz said:


> I've been served by that bloke before, back in March when I was there, nice bloke and we had a good chat.
> 
> 
> National homebrew have a big walk in freezer in store. I've never gotten hops out of it because I order online and make Martin go into the cold to get the hops.


I'm not silly, I usually delegate someone else (the girls) to go in there and freeze for the morning picks while I'm doing my mill monkey regime. h34r:


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## Barge (24/8/15)

antiphile said:


> For most of the stuff I had a really nice young guy (perhaps with a slight stutter) who served me.
> 
> The sergeant-major came out, looked me up and down, and seemed to size me up as a blithering half-wit.
> 
> PS. At least it wasn't a totally wasted drive. I did the grocery shopping at the Capalaba shopping centre on the way home. And it is absolutely huuuuuge.


I got the bloke with the stutter. Really friendly, nice to deal with and we also had a good chat. I agree that he wasn't as knowledgeable but when knowledge and arrogance seem to go hand in glove then I can happily take that. I'm guessing Tony's the ser-major. I haven't had too many issues but having said that I am going to return a gas splitter tomorrow as it didn't fit my gas lines so it will be interesting to see how that goes.

As for the shopping centre, which one? There are 2 right across the road from each other. Don't ask my why.


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## Coodgee (24/8/15)

Probably not the nicest way to identify the young salesperson guys...


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## Barge (24/8/15)

Fair enough, but I didn't get his name AND when he is a shining light of customer service I would like to think we could be forgiven. From now on I will refer to him as the young bloke with the dark brown hair in a pony tail. Or I'll find out his name.


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## fishingbrad (24/8/15)

Your absolutely right.

He had a UK accent and was very eager to help/ please.


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## antiphile (24/8/15)

Coodgee said:


> Probably not the nicest way to identify the young salesperson guys...


You're probably right, Coodgee. And I wholeheartedly apologise if it was offensive; it really wasn't intended that way.


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## Barge (24/8/15)

antiphile said:


> You're probably right, Coodgee. And I wholeheartedly apologise if it was offensive; it really wasn't intended that way.


+1 no offence intended. It just struck me at the time that, despite his struggles he came across as being really helpful and a pleasure to deal with. All things considered I figured it would be easy for Ross to know who he is so that he can give him a big wrap and encourage his other staff and managers to be just as friendly and personable. When antiphile mentioned him I thought, YES, that's the bloke. Unfortunately some of our most obvious traits are the ones that we wish weren't so identifiable. As for me, I'm sure I'm remembered as "Did you talk to that fat bastard with the beard? He's a cnut!".


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## Vini2ton (24/8/15)

Retail can be a tough gig. Home-brewing is a niche market and if you were going to get into it you'd want someone in there for you that knew their stuff. But I think that there is a certain percentage of humanity who can pass themselves off as reasonably intelligent but who are in reality part off the twilight-zone. Lights on but no one home. It's called the idiot factor and our world is seriously affected by it. I'm more than happy with the chap I deal with for my grain and stuff. Knows his products and has never bullshitted or ripped me off. What more could a poor home-brewer want?


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## antiphile (24/8/15)

Vini2ton said:


> I'm more than happy with the chap I deal with for my grain and stuff. Knows his products and has never bullshitted or ripped me off. What more could a poor home-brewer want?


+ lots and lots. Well said, squire.


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## Fat Bastard (24/8/15)

Barge said:


> As for me, I'm sure I'm remembered as "Did you talk to that fat bastard with the beard? He's a cnut!".


I'm absolutely sure that's the way I'm remembered!


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## Spiesy (24/8/15)

With the research I've read, I'd be concerned if my retailer wasn't storing their hops in a freezer and vac sealed.


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## Rocker1986 (24/8/15)

I also briefly dealt with that young bloke at Craftbrewer when I went down there last week to pick up my kegerator. He was polite and friendly but a bit unsure, so he directed me into the office to speak with Anthony about it, who was really helpful with any questions I had about it, and sorted it all quickly. I regularly go there for grains and liquid yeasts and have never had any issues with the staff.

I also go to the Annerley shop for other small items like DME for my yeast starters and dextrose for bottle priming. Occasionally I get specialty grains from there. They're always friendly as well but I do get the impression they're not quite as knowledgeable. Having said that, I've never asked them for any in depth brewing advice either.


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## simmo1972 (24/8/15)

Not had a problem at Craftbrewer and use them for hops or grains if my preferred one does not have. Bought lots of BIAB fittings in there as well.

I prefer to use the one in Cleveland and always get brilliant service in there. He has expanded the shop keeps yeast / hops in fridge/freezer. Has a small selection of shiny stainless bits and is cheaper then the others. He is selling the grainfather so is starting to get a good choice of grains as well.


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## Danielscott26 (24/8/15)

I regularly shop at craftbrewer and have never had a problem with any of the staff there. Anthony has always helped me with any questions on recipes or my all grain equipment setup and recently helped me set up my keg system.


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/8/15)

mosto said:


> . It's a Country Brewer franchise with lots of kits on the shelves up one end, a shit load of essences down the other and a few bags of spec grains, dextrose, brew enhancers etc in between. However, if I ring or email them beforehand, they'll get a 25kg bag of base malt in and have been able to get most strains of yeast in that I've asked for.


Have only herd good things about this mob B)


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## Ducatiboy stu (24/8/15)

Spiesy said:


> That's dumb. If you're selling gear worth hundreds of dollars you should at least know how it needs to be prepped before use.


No. Not always. Plenty of situations where you buy something from a shop and they dont always know how it should be used

I have walked into plenty of trade supply places ( selling big $$ equipment ) and they always point you towards the manufacturer

I can nearly bet my balls and anyone's balls than if you walked in to buy a $1500 mig welder that the bloke behind the counter has never struck an arc in his life. But he can read the leaflet.

Same as the wholesaler I deal with. The guy behind the counter knows SFA about electricity, can not say how to use the product, but can recite the whole catalog verbatim.

Does the retailer need to know everything about every product..... No they dont.


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## Blind Dog (24/8/15)

Fylp said:


> Shit! I never realised how spoiled I am living 5min from ESB.


And if you're 5 minutes from ESB, you're a max 10 from Barleyman, so blessed indeed.


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## Spiesy (25/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> No. Not always. Plenty of situations where you buy something from a shop and they dont always know how it should be used
> 
> I have walked into plenty of trade supply places ( selling big $$ equipment ) and they always point you towards the manufacturer
> 
> ...


I'm not saying they need to know everything about a product, but they should know the very basics, particularly manufacturers recommendations.

Homebrew is a specialist interest - if the retailer doesn't know anything about homebrew, they probably shouldn't be selling it - or at the very least, I probably wouldn't be shopping there.
This would be akin to you purchasing your MIG welder from a store that specialises in MIG welding. You would hope that they had some basic product knowledge.

Wholesale is different to retail.


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## Nullnvoid (25/8/15)

Spiesy said:


> I'm not saying they need to know everything about a product, but they should know the very basics, particularly manufacturers recommendations.
> 
> Homebrew is a specialist interest - if the retailer doesn't know anything about homebrew, they probably shouldn't be selling it - or at the very least, I probably wouldn't be shopping there.
> This would be akin to you purchasing your MIG welder from a store that specialises in MIG welding. You would hope that they had some basic product knowledge.
> ...


That's what I was thinking as I was reading along. But you put it better than I was going too.


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## SJW (25/8/15)

I'm surprised about the comments regarding Craftbrewer and the service. Is this Ross's Craftbrewer? I met Ross once at his house in QLD, just before he moved to the shop and I found him very nice to deal with and very knowledgeable. Anytime I need a special item or whatever I ring Ross and always get fast service. Like when my element recently blew on my BM. 1 phone call to Ross and it was ordered that day. Is there more than one Craftbrewer these days?

Steve


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## Bribie G (25/8/15)

Craftbrewer at Capalaba was in one shed, with the shop out front where Ross and Anthony would hold court and the brewery behind there / along the side.

Then the shop area was remodelled into a beer bar :chug: and the retail /online operation moved to another shed in the complex.

So unless Anthony has been replaced with Basil Fawlty I don't know what might have happened there. Always get superb service online and have had brilliant service at the store itself over the years although it could get a bit hectic on a Saturday morning with a fair mob crowding in to buy.


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## Leviathan (25/8/15)

Never realised how lucky i am to have Pat so close, ive shopped there since i first got into brewing so advice has been A1 from the get go.


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## pcmfisher (25/8/15)

antiphile said:


> Sounds very familiar. I dropped in there (Capalaba) in early July to have a look around, see the range, grab a SS temp gauge and thermowell, plate chiller, several metres of good silicon tube, and several other bits and bobs. It's nice to know who you're dealing with on the phone IMHO. (Not a Qld native, but spending about a third of the time there the last few years for several reasons). I guess it was a 45 min drive each way from Chapel Hill.
> 
> For most of the stuff I had a really nice young guy (perhaps with a slight stutter) who served me. He was more than willing to help as much as he possibly could, but he didn't appear dreadfully knowlegeable or maybe he was a bit new to the game. Yet I really liked him for his attitude and willingness to assist. At the end, I asked what washer he recommended for the thermowell, and he said he wasn't certain but would get someone who'd know (and no-one can criticise him for honesty and openess). He got "the boss"!
> 
> ...


I think his reply to you asking for discount as a first time shopper could have been - "Let's round it up to $210". 
That would have been more satisfying for him.


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## earle (25/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> I think his reply to you asking for discount as a first time shopper could have been - "Let's round it up to $210".
> That would have been more satisfying for him.


Or he could have politely explained that items were already competitively priced and only offered a small margin for the retailer and no room for further discount (if this is the case) - resulting in satisfaction for both the customer and the retailer


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## SJW (25/8/15)

earle said:


> Or he could have politely explained that items were already competitively priced and only offered a small margin for the retailer and no room for further discount (if this is the case) - resulting in satisfaction for both the customer and the retailer


I would expect to pay the marked price of any item in a shop no matter how much im buying. If the proprietor is inclined to give me a discount of any sort I would consider myself very fortunate. I can speak from experience here in Newcastle, after Marks Homebrew shut up shop I often think was it all those free bees and discounts he used to give everyone that contributed to the shops demise? We are lucky that Steve "Brewman" bought the business and is doing such a great job running it from his house. 

Steve


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## technobabble66 (25/8/15)

pcmfisher said:


> I think his reply to you asking for discount as a first time shopper could have been - "Let's round it up to $210".
> That would have been more satisfying for him.


Not to in any way excuse poor attitude, but i think most (business-owning) retailers find the asking of a discount most annoying. Especially from first-timers who aren't really buying that much.
Don't get me wrong - $200 is a fair chunk of dough; but the margins that they typically operate at means that from their end it's pretty small unless you're looking at $1000+. I'm sure there's some sectors that have big margins, but most small businesses in retail don't.
That's probably where the problem lies: to the customer, it feels like he's handing over a hefty $200 of his hard-earned cash. To the retailer, that might be more like handing over $30-50 (as representative of the profit). So what looks like a pissy $10 (5%) discount might be more like a 20-30% discount to the retailer's pocket



earle said:


> Or he could have politely explained that items were already competitively priced and only offered a small margin for the retailer and no room for further discount (if this is the case) - resulting in satisfaction for both the customer and the retailer


Agree - this would've been the appropriate response.

Quick anecdote: A few years back my wife had a woman (wealthy-appearing, fwiw, lots of carats on the fingers, etc) come into her shop, look around for 20-30mins asking lots of inane questions about her stock (women's small-production clothing & jewellery). She finally selected only a $10 plate and had the audacity to ask for a discount. While SWMBO felt like diving across the counter and slapping her, she instead said something like what earle mentions above.
Similarly, when she asked for it to be gift-wrapped as a wedding present (!!!), SWMBO politely mentioned they only gift-wrap for purchases over $25 (as it can take a few minutes to do their fancy gift wrapping).

Not saying the OP/Antphile's experiences were like this silly prat, but you can see that asking for a discount can gradually become a sensitive thing for a retailer. Sometimes it's better to think of whether you deserve the few extra bucks or if maybe the retailer does for all their efforts (i.e.: judging on their attitude _before_ you ask for the discount).
Again, though, there's not really any excuse for poor attitude towards a customer.
2c


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## MHB (25/8/15)

Asking for a discount is like you being asked to take a cut in your wages - it's exactly that. Remember that you probably weren't the first person that day to ask for a discount or freebee.
If every time you went to work you employer was telling you you weren't worth what you were being paid - well it wears thin pretty fast.

Steve
Main reason I shut down was that I did my back in, got to the point where without pretty serious painkillers I couldn't work - with the painkillers I couldn't work...
Meet a lot of great people during the 20 years in the game, but the one thing that used to really shit me was the constant whinging about "The Price", usually without any qualification as to quality, people bitching about Muntons DME being dearer than the cheapest crap on the market - without asking if it was the same; yep I'm well over putting up with that.

Mark


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## Mothballs (25/8/15)

Hi folks, I assume that I am the Sgt Major in question in Antiphiles post. My name is Anthony and I am the manager at Craftbrewer. Antiphile, I apologise if I caused any offence to you during your visit to our store. My recollection of the day is somewhat different but perhaps I am looking through rose coloured glasses and will take this on board. Perhaps my demeanor comes across as grumpy however this is not my intention and I honestly believe that I try to offer the best advice I can to every customer that walks into our store. If a customer asks a question on an ingredient/ equipment/process I will give my honest opinion as to what I believe will best suit their application. Maybe I am a bit guilty of rattling on about a subject but I am passionate about making great beer and really enjoy helping brewers make great beer themselves. I have worked for Ross for around 7 years now and previously for Brewers Choice for 4 years and I can say that these have been the best jobs I have ever had and I really enjoy the interaction with customers and hope to continue this for many years ahead.

Cheers
Anthony


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## Weizguy (25/8/15)

MHB said:


> ..., people bitching about Muntons DME being dearer than the cheapest crap on the market - without asking if it was the same; yep I'm well over putting up with that.
> 
> Mark


Ha ha, Mark. Maybe that's why I bought my Muntons DME and wheat DME by the box, to get a better price. A much better bulk price, I recall.


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## Spohaw (25/8/15)

I've never asked for money off or free things at any homebrew joint

I will now ....... Thanks for the idea guys !


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## Barge (25/8/15)

Had a good experience today at craftbrewer. I had a few questions about products and was helped out with no worries at all.


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## Bribie G (25/8/15)

Well that's cleared that up.

I first met Anthony at the old Logan City store before the move to Capalaba, and the general consensus among customers was that he might as well just take over the running of the place and give Ross a break to concentrate on development work, as his customer service, advice and knowledge was great. So becoming the actual manager of the premises since the brewery and the retail outlet "split" is excellent news and well deserved.

Also he's won more than a few gongs in competitions, but you'd never know because he doesn't put it around and that's the style of the guy.


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## Red Baron (25/8/15)

Apologies for the OT, but this is another plug for Anthony.
I showed up about 5min after the shop shut one day to find him walking through the door as he was locking it. I was unable to come back when the shop would be open, as I was on the way to the airport to go back home to Townsville. I explained this to him, he unlocked the door and I bought my sack of grain.

And this was on a Friday afternoon too!

Cheers,
RB


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## SJW (25/8/15)

Ya gotta love the Internet


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## HBHB (25/8/15)

Mothballs said:


> Hi folks, I assume that I am the Sgt Major in question in Antiphiles post. My name is Anthony and I am the manager at Craftbrewer. Antiphile, I apologise if I caused any offence to you during your visit to our store. My recollection of the day is somewhat different but perhaps I am looking through rose coloured glasses and will take this on board. Perhaps my demeanor comes across as grumpy however this is not my intention and I honestly believe that I try to offer the best advice I can to every customer that walks into our store. If a customer asks a question on an ingredient/ equipment/process I will give my honest opinion as to what I believe will best suit their application. Maybe I am a bit guilty of rattling on about a subject but I am passionate about making great beer and really enjoy helping brewers make great beer themselves. I have worked for Ross for around 7 years now and previously for Brewers Choice for 4 years and I can say that these have been the best jobs I have ever had and I really enjoy the interaction with customers and hope to continue this for many years ahead.
> 
> Cheers
> Anthony


And you're a credit to the store. Nobody could ask more.


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## manticle (25/8/15)

Nothing wrong with asking for a discount as long as you're prepared to hear the answer 'no'. I prefer to wait to be offered.
My online, phone and instore experiences with various retailer/sponsors have so far been excellent. Have dealt extensively with grain and grape, a bit with gryphon/online brewing supplies and online and phone with craftbrewer (both Ross and Anthony). Others including Dave at Greensborough have also been great.

Hop dealz and full pint also.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/8/15)

Spiesy said:


> I'm not saying they need to know everything about a product, but they should know the very basics, particularly manufacturers recommendations.
> 
> Homebrew is a specialist interest - if the retailer doesn't know anything about homebrew, they probably shouldn't be selling it - or at the very least, I probably wouldn't be shopping there.
> This would be akin to you purchasing your MIG welder from a store that specialises in MIG welding. You would hope that they had some basic product knowledge.
> ...


Lots of HBS do and know SFA about the product

Dont always assume they do.

And dont whinge when they dont know everything about every product.

It may be a special interest to US, but the retailer may not give two squirts of rocking horse shit. He is out to sell a product and make a few $$

Sure, if you dont like the retailer, dont buy from him. But dont automatically think that the person behind the counter will know everything.

Even the stores who are " Specialist" dont know everything and even give the wrong advice

Caveat Emptor.


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## Spiesy (25/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> Lots of HBS do and know SFA about the product
> 
> Dont always assume they do.
> 
> ...


You've quoted me, so I'm guessing you're addressing me.

I didn't say at any point that all HBS employees know everything about homebrewing. Didn't say that at all.
What I did say is that they _should_ know the basics of what they're selling. If they don't, then I think that's a poor retailer, and I personally would steer clear.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/8/15)

My point is that the retailer may not know everything about the product, and may not care, and as a customer you need to take that into account

Yes the guy who really does know his shit will be the one to buy from

And in all honesty, when most of us walk into a HBS we pretty much don't know what we want. )

Automatically expecting the retailer/seller to be a font of knowledge is the correct attitude...


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## dicko (25/8/15)

Spiesy said:


> You've quoted me, so I'm guessing you're addressing me.
> 
> I didn't say at any point that all HBS employees know everything about homebrewing. Didn't say that at all.
> What I did say is that they _should_ know the basics of what they're selling. If they don't, then I think that's a poor retailer, and I personally would steer clear.





Ducatiboy stu said:


> My point is that the retailer may not know everything about the product, and may not care, and as a customer you need to take that into account
> 
> But you cant expect every retailer to be like that
> 
> ...


So, Spiesy,

You have now realised you won't win that one...


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## Beersuit (25/8/15)

I understand the anger the OP being upset at the brew shop not knowing about the AA of the hops that their selling but there must be something said about them only wanting tstgo there when they need something at a pinch. Businesses can't stock everything for everyone's convenience especially if they buy all their other ingredients online. Most brew shops need to get out of the dark ages and get with the times but that isn't going to happen without the support of their locals. The internet will eventually kill all brew shops and when that happens where will everyone go when they need something in a hurry.


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## Ducatiboy stu (25/8/15)

And then we start a thread called " How the Internet killed the local HBS.."


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## butisitart (25/8/15)

dunno if i were dealing with anthony or ross (way back in this thread) which is what probably triggered antiphile's post. although mine for different reasons. anyway, maybe a bit of customer relations feedback (even if brutal) still ain't a bad thing. and like i said in my post, the staff (all 3 or so guys and the girl at the front) are all really good with the customers. so thumbs up for the hired hands.
me in small business - i don't usually do discounts for the reasons others have mentioned above - my profit is what i put on the table for my family, and you want me to feed you too?? people on wages don't lose part of their pay cos their boss (or customer in our case) decides to do a deal. nothing wrong with trying, but like south korea, switzerland and japan, this ain't really a haggling business culture. as opposed to spain, malaysia or thailand where everything has a reserve price.

let's all go and hug a big tree


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## dicko (25/8/15)

Ducatiboy stu said:


> My point is that the retailer may not know everything about the product, and may not care, and as a customer you need to take that into account
> 
> Yes the guy who really does know his shit will be the one to buy from
> 
> ...


totally agree Stu


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## Rocker1986 (27/8/15)

I think everyone seems to have missed the boat on the part of Anti's post where he said he *jokingly *said, "Let's call it $200." Obviously it wasn't picked up on by the store staff either... h34r:


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## Bribie G (27/8/15)

I worked for many years for Allens Sweets then Rothmans as a sales rep, back in the days when such a job existed, and my customer base was a mixture of hotels, garages, corner stores, cafes, newsagents, IGAs etc etc.
Many hundreds and hundreds over the years and I developed a fair knowledge of the different flavours of small business operators.

One pattern that I'm sure many sales reps would confirm is that the majority of small businesses are started by somebody who is passionate about their offering then, when the time comes to sell the business and move on it tends to be picked up by someone who is buying themselves a job. More often than not, the new owner had been made redundant and is using the payout to fund their semi retirement in their own business. At the risk of sounding nasty, a fair subset of these people buy into their own business because, basically, they are unemployable, egotistical arseholes and wouldn't hold a job in the real world of employment. Now it could be argued that's a good quality for a small businessman. I'd agree, but it would need to be tempered with a strong desire to adapt, learn and learn more. Often these owners have locked up the learning centre and thrown the key away.

Great example was Hervey Bay, one of my areas in the 1990s. At a shopping centre if you ducked behind to the small business owners' parking area it would be a collection of Saab, Mercedes, the odd Porsche, all leased for tax minimisation and to demonstrate to family and neighbours that they were now important people. The owner would likely be on the beach or at golf, enjoying the seaside lifestyle they had bought themselves, leaving an assistant, or the Mrs, in charge of the shop. Or in the case of one snack bar owner at Pialba standing behind the counter ranting to anyone who would listed how the Slopes and Japs were ruining Australia. Their only trade knowledge was often just a quick intro by the previous owner on his way out. When the business failed after about 18 months loud would be the wailing and the blaming of Woolies, McDonalds whoever.

Probably changed a bit since then but as far as I'm aware the current successful home brew businesses were started and are run by passionate operators, or were transferred to equally passionate buyers as in the case of Brewman.

edit: to be fair: one thing that has changed since the 90s is that many people going into small business now do so via a franchise. Great examples are Country Brewer, Cartridge World and even good old McDonalds.
If you walk into one of these stores they operate along pretty reliable "corporate" lines and to retain the franchise they have to offer set levels of service and quality. This I'm sure has weeded out a lot of slack operators, as we are seeing in LHBS (Brewers Choice stores in Brisbane are another fair example, all their stores I visited seemed to have an enthusiastic manager or owner).


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## manticle (27/8/15)

Rocker1986 said:


> I think everyone seems to have missed the boat on the part of Anti's post where he said he *jokingly *said, "Let's call it $200." Obviously it wasn't picked up on by the store staff either... h34r:


Cheekily more like. Bet he wouldn't have refused if they said ok.

Sometimes you have to try it on but you've got to accept it may not fit.


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## lost at sea (3/3/16)

antiphile said:


> It'd be funny if it weren't true, SJW. There are only 2 that I know of around Newcastle itself now; one at Charlestown and one at Islington. And the really depressing thing is, that tale of woe could well apply to either of them.


i noticed today that the charlestown LHBS/essence store is gooooooooooneeeeee.

made my first AG order with brewman today, soooo stoked with the service.


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## Brewman_ (3/3/16)

I heard that store was closing for some time.

Glad you like the service lost at sea.
Cheers Steve


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## lost at sea (3/3/16)

Brewman_ said:


> I heard that store was closing for some time.
> 
> Glad you like the service lost at sea.
> Cheers Steve


no dramas, i couldnt believe how prompt the delivery was, gotta be quick to beat you home! 
its my first AG, so just made up a cascade smash as a test flight brew. i ordered medium cracked for BIAB, what do you recommend next time? med, or fine?


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## Brewman_ (3/3/16)

Hey lost at sea,
For BIAB, go for fine. 1.2mm or 0.9mm. Maybe start at 1.2mm I think you will find that works well. Just update your details with that so it defaults to that crack on your next order.

Cheers Steve


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## Roosterboy (3/3/16)

I have family who work in a home brew supply shop.They make more money off spirits than beer and unfortunately beer brewers will always go for the 
cheapest option. I have a theory that it's because our other half in general control the money. What ever the reason , i think blokes have to say this 
is my hobby not just a way of making cheap piss. The thing is if you get rid of the small guy the big players like coles and woolies will fill the gap.
I know there isn't much of a margin in home brew. I think it's sad small businesses go broke in this industry.


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## lost at sea (4/3/16)

Brewman_ said:


> Hey lost at sea,
> For BIAB, go for fine. 1.2mm or 0.9mm. Maybe start at 1.2mm I think you will find that works well. Just update your details with that so it defaults to that crack on your next order.
> 
> Cheers Steve


thanks again mate, will update for my next order! 

brewbuilder is nice and easy for to use.


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## Coalminer (4/3/16)

Well now, this came to a mate with a prepackaged kit recipe from a branch of a franchised LHBS
When he questioned the quality of repackaged yeast he got no real response and was told to contact the head office
So he called and the so-called-expert at head office said not to worry as there is enough yeast to do 2 brews as you only need 5 grams for a good ferment
So I assume this is some new super stain of US-05...a real bargain at $6.00 per packet of 10 grams









No wonder places go broke


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## wynnum1 (4/3/16)

When buying a shop would suggest that the previous owner may try to cook the books look how well Dick Smith was going and not unknown to pay tax on phantom profits and do discount sales or do a 711 and rip the workers off.If the new owner of a shop worked for a large corporation or government probably do not realise that if things go bad that its there own money and that expensive car is only a tax deduction if they make a profit and working extra hours does not mean more income.


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## SBOB (4/3/16)

Coalminer said:


> Well now, this came to a mate with a prepackaged kit recipe from a branch of a franchised LHBS
> When he questioned the quality of repackaged yeast he got no real response and was told to contact the head office
> So he called and the so-called-expert at head office said not to worry as there is enough yeast to do 2 brews as you only need 5 grams for a good ferment
> So I assume this is some new super stain of US-05...a real bargain at $6.00 per packet of 10 grams
> ...


I think thats a pretty standard re-packaging of 10 g safale (for country brewer if I had to guess)


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## pist (4/3/16)

lost at sea said:


> i noticed today that the charlestown LHBS/essence store is gooooooooooneeeeee.
> 
> made my first AG order with brewman today, soooo stoked with the service.


Theres no surprise
The shop was a pig stye, neither he or his wife could of given a shade of shit about customer service, and don't get me started about the storage and quality of brew ingredients. I nearly died laughing when he posted a massive rant on his website blaming his suppliers for the closure of his business.

That aside, your in great hands with steve at brewman. You won't find better service anywhere else


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## lost at sea (4/3/16)

pist said:


> Theres no surprise
> The shop was a pig stye, neither he or his wife could of given a shade of shit about customer service, and don't get me started about the storage and quality of brew ingredients. I nearly died laughing when he posted a massive rant on his website blaming his suppliers for the closure of his business.
> 
> That aside, your in great hands with steve at brewman. You won't find better service anywhere else


entered the store once, early in my brewing chapter, bought some bottle caps as i felt bad for them, never returned. some hippy and a disgruntled wife.

couldnt be happier with brewman service, fantastic.


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