# Reusing US-05



## damoninja

Hi everyone. 

I'm planning on brewing an IPA this weekend with a starting gravity around 1.070, I've currently got a finished beer sitting on US-05 that I'm dry hopping and crashing Thursday evening to bottle Sunday. 

I'm planning on re-using the US-05 that I've currently got going, but was wondering if I'm OK to:

Dump right onto the yeast cake (some say OK, some say dumb)
Wash it, pitch it
Wash it, make a starter, pitch it
I know a starter is probably technically the best option, but I just want to know what will work and what the impacts of each could be. 

I don't care if it's a "waste of time" re-using US-05, it's an exercise and $5 in an all grain brew is enough to want to save the money on it.


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## Bribie G

I often reuse packet yeasts as I have to get most of mine online, so it's a convenience thing rather than a cost saver.

After bottling, if you swish the yeast cake around till it's a cream consistency and fill a bottle with it you will have heaps to pitch. Dumping onto the yeast cake can work - I do this with my ciders, but with ales you can end up overpitching and getting a runaway fermentation, especially with a strong wort. The major characteristics of the beer are formed in the first few days. Also it's nice to start anew with a spotless sanitised fermenter. Personally I don't bother with the washing method if it's a similar style of beer.


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## mxd

I've done the exactly the same thing as you mention, now if I'm reusing the whole cake I will dry hop with a hop bag so I don't leave the hop slop on the cake. Once I had a fermentation flavour which I put down to too much yeast, too quick, as I did a 1.050 on the cake.


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## QldKev

I always re-use my yeast cakes multiple times. I used to wash them etc, but there is minimal difference in the final product. I would keep about almost 2/3 of the yeast cake if pitching a 1.070 beer.


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## DJR

Draw off a cup of yeast slurry, keep that in the fridge if need be for a few days max and then just chuck that in, saves overpitching issues, plus you can give the fermenter a fresh clean/sanitise


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## DJR

Also US05 is pretty good repitched. For some reason the 2nd pitch always tastes better... maybe it's a bit cleaner due to not as much yeast growth?


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## damoninja

Awesome. I was thinking of just adding some water and reducing the volume down to maybe 1/2 to 2/3. 

Thanks guys.


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## mwd

I reuse US05 although it is cheap enough to buy. I agree it seems to get better after the first use. Don't usually go past 6 reuses though as I read somewhere it tends to mutate and is not so good. Don't know how the commercials go on though using the same yeast for years.


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## Yob

Acceptable drift


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## hoppy2B

I thought it was recommended practice to dry hop in secondary and reuse yeast from the primary ferment.

Perhaps that explains why homebrewers are unable to get more than half a dozen reuses from their yeast.


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## Yob

Secondary? Most (vast majority) go whole process in primary if I'm not mistaken


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## esssee

I had heard that anything past the 4th Generation of yeast started to be unpredictable.

The Commercials manage their yeast in Labs, and reculture their yeast from Petri Dishes.

On the home side of things, you can get quite a number of uses out of a single, original pitch of yeast.

I have been able to wash four batches of yeast from the one yeast cake. Even if you conservatively say that you get three, You start with 1, then 3, then 9, and finally 27 on your fourth generation.

So theoretically, it is possible to get 40 brews from one pitch of Yeast.

I heard Jamil Zainasheff on Brew Strong say that they like to get 10 batches from the one pitch at Heretic Brewing Co.


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## QldKev

Yeast mutation after 4th/6th/nth is bullshit. Many great breweries in the world reuse their yeast 100's of times without any 'miracle' lab work happening. I've personally re-used the same cake for over 6 months continuously without any change in the yeast.


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## drew9242

QldKev said:


> Yeast mutation after 4th/6th/nth is bullshit. Many great breweries in the world reuse their yeast 100's of times without any 'miracle' lab work happening. I've personally re-used the same cake for over 6 months continuously without any change in the yeast.


Did you just smash the next beer on the cake every time for 6 Months?

I normally do 3 batchs out of each yeast. I take as much of the yeast cake out with a glass and then pitch straight on top.


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## QldKev

Drew9242 said:


> Did you just smash the next beer on the cake every time for 6 Months?
> 
> I normally do 3 batchs out of each yeast. I take as much of the yeast cake out with a glass and then pitch straight on top.



All I do is swirl the fermenter to mix everything up, and tip out approx half if I'm going to pitch a 1.040 to 1.050 on top. (higher gravity I leave 2/3)

My most important rule is always taste the beer before kegging and re-using the yeast cake. If any signs of an infection (even that slightest doubt) dump the yeast cake.


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## damoninja

QldKev said:


> All I do is swirl the fermenter to mix everything up, and tip out approx half if I'm going to pitch a 1.040 to 1.050 on top. (higher gravity I leave 2/3)
> 
> My most important rule is always taste the beer before kegging and re-using the yeast cake. If any signs of an infection (even that slightest doubt) dump the yeast cake.


This is what I'll do. Dump half and put it in the fridge, keep half!


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## Bribie G

Breweries have yeast labs full of serious chicks in white coats and black rimmed glasses who are always checking the yeast. I believe that many breweries keep their original strains in a bunker in Copenhagen where they specialise in running an Armageddon Yeast Bank (and have done so since the 19th Century) and can resupply if the worst happens.

I have a white lab coat, anyone got a spare babe they can send round?

Edit: best yeast storage bottle I've found to be a 600ml springwater bottle that's guaranteed sanitised anyway. Keeps for a few months in a cold fridge.


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## QldKev

If they are hot chicks, I would not let them were you white coat. But I guess without clothes on you run the risk of other yeasts being introduced.


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## technobabble66

@ QldKev, damoninja & others,

What do you do with the yeastcake from heavily dry hopped beers?

I've just dry hopped with 55g each of simcoe & Columbus. So I'm guessing there'll be lots of hop slop on the bottom. 
Can I use the yeast as is, or does it need to be rinsed, or is it better to just toss it & shell out for a new pack of yeast for the next brew?
Just wondering the general consensus.


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## damoninja

technobabble66 said:


> @ QldKev, damoninja & others,
> 
> What do you do with the yeastcake from heavily dry hopped beers?
> 
> I've just dry hopped with 55g each of simcoe & Columbus. So I'm guessing there'll be lots of hop slop on the bottom.
> Can I use the yeast as is, or does it need to be rinsed, or is it better to just toss it & shell out for a new pack of yeast for the next brew?
> Just wondering the general consensus.


I'd like to know this too. 

I've only got 15g of dry hops in the fv now, since I'm doing an IPA next with like 170g of hops, the feeble 15 grams I've got dry hopped shouldn't be noticeable.


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## Yob

rinse... its a pretty easy process to seperate the trub/hops from the nice healthy yeast.


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## technobabble66

Prolly a stoopid question then:
What do you do to rinse? & what happens?

Pour 300-400ml yeast slurry into 600ml PET water bottle (bribie G style) or conical flask. Fill w cooled boiled water. Shake & let settle in fridge. Water/beer on top, a layer of hop slop, bottom layer of nice clean yeasties. 
Correct?


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## damoninja

technobabble66 said:


> Prolly a stoopid question then:
> What do you do to rinse? & what happens?
> 
> Pour 300-400ml yeast slurry into 600ml PET water bottle (bribie G style) or conical flask. Fill w cooled boiled water. Shake & let settle in fridge. Water/beer on top, a layer of hop slop, bottom layer of nice clean yeasties.
> Correct?


In addition to this..... How long is it safe to leave this in the fridge for? I was thinking of doing the same and keeping the yeast that I don't use for another brew.


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## Yob

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/55409-rinsing-yeast-in-pictures/

Less, you want a MAX. of 1/3 the volume of the flask, 1-2l is best (old style V8 Glass is da bomb)

example.

1/4 jar trub
1/2 Cooled boiled water
shake
let stand for 15-20 mins and you will see (should see) a separation
Gently pour off the top layer leaving behind the trub.

Have a look through wolfy's thread, it's only 12 pages and all the questions/problems you will encounter have their answers in the linked thread..

Most people have trouble with separation because they have the mix too thick, if this happens, tip some out and re-dilute. I always keep 3lt of sterile water (yes sterile) in the brew cupboard in case I want to rinse yeast.

Cheers

ed: not in the fridge, room temp is best as cold yeast will want to settle fast, you wanrt the healthy yeast in suspension and the dead yeast/crap to settle


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## Yob

damoninja said:


> In addition to this..... How long is it safe to leave this in the fridge for? I was thinking of doing the same and keeping the yeast that I don't use for another brew.


Ive used up to about 100ml up to 4 weeks later with good results.

use Mr Malty to get a handle on how much you should be collecting, it was a help to me when I started rinsing yeast, I dont use it a great deal now as Ive got a pretty good handle on how much I need and I usually am reviving it with a starter these days so actual slurry volume is less important to me than it used to be.

:icon_cheers:

ed: using graduated marking on a jar can assist with knowing how much you have collected





Top down
4/4 = Clear Beer
3/4 = Healthy Yeast
1/2 = Trub and shite
1/4 = Hops


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## hoppy2B

Has anyone tested hop flowers in fresh wort to see if they kick off a ferment?

The point I was trying to make in my previous post was that you may be introducing naturally occurring yeast found on hop flowers into your brew and thereby corrupting its purity.

Does anyone know the deal with hop pellets, perhaps Yob can answer this one? They are obviously treated somehow to avoid introducing hop diseases into the country. Which is to say, its illegal to import hop flowers into Australia from America, but hop pellets are ok.

Based on the above one would also assume that its safer to dry hop with pellets than flowers if trying to avoid infecting your beer.


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## Yob

Could somebody facepalm this for me..


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## hoppy2B

Yob said:


> Could somebody facepalm this for me..


Sure thing Yob....

I hereby facepalm post 27 in this thread. h34r:


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## MrTwalky

Yob said:


> Jar.JPG
> 
> Top down
> 4/4 = Clear Beer
> 3/4 = Healthy Yeast
> 1/2 = Trub and shite
> 1/4 = Hops


Damn Yob! That's some serious stratification going on there! Mine never comes out that clear. You got that after 20 mins? Assuming it is yours...

I had a WL Edinburgh Ale yeast, washed and chilled for about 6 months. Made a starter and it smelt very funky... I though I was being clean... :huh:


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## Yob

No mate, that had sat for about an hour, just thought it was good for illustrating the point. 

You should see 3 layers after about 20min, clear, light and then dark.


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## damoninja

Cheers Yob, your feedback is always helpful


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## MaltyHops

Yob said:


> Could somebody facepalm this for me..


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## damoninja

I'm using a 30L fv up to the 25L mark... Someone suggested that a blow off tube is "required" for larger amounts of yeast like this because the yeast will "go off"....

What to you reckon?


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## mwd

Not in my experience Us-05 only gives a few centimetres of Krausen at 18-20C never had a blowout in a Coopers (old style) fermenter.


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## technobabble66

@Yob - thanks dude, & currently reading link. Big ups on that stratification. And awaiting detailed response to post#26 :-/ I, too, wish to know the deal with hops pellets. Discuss. 

@ MaltyHops - pure awesomeness!

Wow - I must be a bit drunk. I just realized hoppy2B might have a point: can we be sure that hop flowers are actually sterile (ie: renown for not introducing an infection) or maybe they harbor various yeast strains that get lost in the predominant strain of fermentation yeast; & so don't get detected generally. What evidence is there that the hops we dry hop with are sterile (cf. "effectively" sterile)?
Maybe there's all sorts of hops-friendly yeasts sitting on those flowers ready to be discovered!!
Then again, who cares...


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## Yob

Unlikely given their preserving properties for beer.. If they were prone to leading to infection they wouldn't have become popular, also keep in mind that when dry hopping (yes even flowers) that there is already a dominant yeast in there thereby inhibiting the growth of a 'foreign' yeast.

With regard to Hoppy's other lamentable points.. Flowers can harbor insects. Pulverized pellets cannot. (or machine pressed plugs) they are also flushed with nitrogen which can't be terribly easy to live in.

Why the hell would you want to 'kick off a ferment by throwing in flowers and under pitching by what would be an insane amount? How would you determine that it was wild yeast from the hops and not airborne contaminants from when you opened the FV to add your hops? I think your hypothesis is flawed and the conditions under which to run said 'experiment' would require considerable wasted effort.

Sorry for the off topic rant

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3807/hops-yeast-starter

http://byo.com/recipes-tag/item/1954-dry-hopping-mr-wizard


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## of mice and gods

damoninja said:


> I'm using a 30L fv up to the 25L mark... Someone suggested that a blow off tube is "required" for larger amounts of yeast like this because the yeast will "go off"....
> 
> What to you reckon?


Well, I just harvested a pint of US-05 slurry (swirled the fermenter after kegging) from a 1.045 OG apa fermented at 18.5C and pitched it into a new batch of 1.055 apa (21L in a 30L fermenter) and in under 24 hours the krausen was gushing from the airlock. A good litre has bubbled out.. madness.

I'm glad I didn't pitch half the slurry! I do however think it might have something to do with the fact that it was out of the fermenter in 8 days (i needed beer damnit) so was probably extra lively.

Al


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## hoppy2B

In regard to Yob's comments, I was merely suggesting pitching some hops into fresh wort that had not had any other yeast pitched into it. The purpose of which would be to ascertain whether the hop flower is responsible for introducing yeast into dry hopped beer and thereby reducing the number of times homebrewers are able to reuse yeast.
That's obviously too difficult for Yob to comprehend however.


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## esssee

I was listening to Jamil Zainasheff on Brew Strong, and he suggested that Hop Flowers are great for the Boil, but when it comes to Dry Hopping, the amount of Lupulin in contact with the beer is less than using Pellets, and therefore prefers Pellets for Dry Hopping. Kind of removes the worry about wild Yeast that way too.


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## Yob

Why? Just because the hops have been pelletized I shouldn't think that removes the wild yeast/dust/spores that would have been present as whole cones.


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## Bridges

Wild yeast is everywhere. I thought it was all about making sure that the yeast we want is the dominant strain in the fermenter. The biggest kid in the schoolyard so to speak.


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## damoninja

of mice and gods said:


> Well, I just harvested a pint of US-05 slurry (swirled the fermenter after kegging) from a 1.045 OG apa fermented at 18.5C and pitched it into a new batch of 1.055 apa (21L in a 30L fermenter) and in under 24 hours the krausen was gushing from the airlock. A good litre has bubbled out.. madness.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't pitch half the slurry! I do however think it might have something to do with the fact that it was out of the fermenter in 8 days (i needed beer damnit) so was probably extra lively.
> 
> Al


Sounds like there's a fair chance of my fridge having a big mess in it!

Would it be wise to start the temp a little lower say 16-17 degrees?


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## of mice and gods

I can't really comment damoninja, i'm not really au fait with yeast pitching.. I mainly just kick in a pack of safbrew something. The pro-yeast rinsers and cell counters would probably be able to give a more comprehensive answer.

What I do know is I've previously pitched cubes straight onto the entire slurry of previous US-05 batch and had big krausen at 18.5C but nothing like this. Maybe if I'd left it to ferment or cold condition for longer then 8 days the yeast response would have been less dramatic. I'm sure the other times I re-pitched the existing yeast had been in the fermenter for about 2 weeks.

Al


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## hoppy2B

Yob said:


> Why? Just because the hops have been pelletized I shouldn't think that removes the wild yeast/dust/spores that would have been present as whole cones.


Yeah, the point I was trying to make is that they must treat hop pellets in some way so as to avoid bringing hop diseases into the country because I doubt that just pelletizing the hops would kill the organisms responsible for hop blight etc.
Which is to say that T90 pellets either have chemicals added or they are irradiated or something.


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## hoppy2B

And as a hop specialist I thought Yob might know of these things. :unsure:


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## damoninja

of mice and gods said:


> I can't really comment damoninja, i'm not really au fait with yeast pitching.. I mainly just kick in a pack of safbrew something. The pro-yeast rinsers and cell counters would probably be able to give a more comprehensive answer.
> 
> What I do know is I've previously pitched cubes straight onto the entire slurry of previous US-05 batch and had big krausen at 18.5C but nothing like this. Maybe if I'd left it to ferment or cold condition for longer then 8 days the yeast response would have been less dramatic. I'm sure the other times I re-pitched the existing yeast had been in the fermenter for about 2 weeks.
> 
> Al


Oh - entire yeast cake... Think this is what the guys were previously referring to as a runaway fermentation. 

I'm taking Yob's advice and using considerably less ^_^


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## Alex.Tas

although a completely different yeast strain, I started a topic yesterday about reusing wyeast 3068, i got the consensus that reusing the whole yeast cake for an identical brew gave far less flavour. Would the same apply to this strain of yeast?


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## DJR

hoppy2B said:


> Yeah, the point I was trying to make is that they must treat hop pellets in some way so as to avoid bringing hop diseases into the country because I doubt that just pelletizing the hops would kill the organisms responsible for hop blight etc.
> Which is to say that T90 pellets either have chemicals added or they are irradiated or something.


They are not chemically treated or irradiated. Just go through a pelletizer, which compresses them (therefore heating them up and killing anything) and I think then they basically are rapidly chilled as they get turned into pellets, which then keeps them that way, then they are packaged and stored under CO2 so no oxygen for nasties to live in.

Go ahead and make a beer and see how you go, AFAIK hops have anti bacterial properties, yeasts might still be around in pellets/whole hops but remember they might not be saccharomyces type yeasts, could be candida, brettanomyces, etc. Either way, I think it's better just to use the very wide variety of good brewing yeasts available than waste money and time making hop wild yeast beer.


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## DJR

Alex.Tas said:


> although a completely different yeast strain, I started a topic yesterday about reusing wyeast 3068, i got the consensus that reusing the whole yeast cake for an identical brew gave far less flavour. Would the same apply to this strain of yeast?


Yep, thats because yeast needs to grow to add flavour particularly for wheat beer style flavours e.g. iso amyl acetate (banana), clove (4VG), these are generally formed by yeast growth/lag phase and if the yeast is already high enough in cells then the yeast will go straight to attenuative phase, not grow, and not add much flavour at all. That's why you only take 1/3 or a 1/2 of the yeast cake and repitch. In a commercial brewery they'll use the racking port to remove a lot of the yeast from the bottom or all, and then repitch with fresh yeast even though you'll hear of them repitching over and over.

Repitching onto a whole cake might be useful sometimes though, e.g. pitching huge beers >1100 OG and if you want to do really lager-like ales


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## Byran

I think that reusing slurry is great its just a timing thing.

I have found that if storing yeast slurry in the fridge you will end up with autolysis after a given period of time. ( The yeast cells eat themselves away due to lack of nutrients I think? eg vegimite flavour). I have found that healthy stored slurry can benefit greatly from adding sterile wort to the container instead of water before storage in the fridge. I reuse Whitelabs vials for this because they can handle the pressure, just crack them every week or so to let out the gas pressure. Ive have stored tiny amounts of yeast for months and months in the fridge with no degradation to the startup quality or ferment flavours when making a starter in the future. Sort of like simple yeast slant stuff without all the bullshit.

Ive repitched every yeast ive ever used many times over from slurry and it seems to work quite well if you use the basic 50mls ale slurry for 23l 1.050 wort, 100mls lager slurry for 23l 1.050 wort rule. Mr maltys calculator shows this quite clearly and I have had heaps of trouble with over under pitching until I took this into serious consideration.

I reused a 1469 slurry for about 12 batches over about a year with no probs at all. I just wanted to try a new yeast so i turfed the remainder. That yeast was probably isolated from a brewery in England where they were reusing it for a long, long, long time without a lab.

Bottom line is if it doesn't taste nice as a slurry, it might not be right to reuse.


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## wbosher

I like Nick JD's method (am I allowed to say that? h34r: ) of pouring 600mls slurry into a PET bottle. Will eventually sink to the bottom covered with beer. Then pour off and drink the beer before pitching yeast.


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## of mice and gods

damoninja said:


> Oh - entire yeast cake... Think this is what the guys were previously referring to as a runaway fermentation.
> 
> I'm taking Yob's advice and using considerably less ^_^


If you look more closely bro I only used about 500mls this time and had a krausen volcano. Where as previously I've pitched on to the whole yeast cake and never had a volcano. So the point I was trying to make was maybe leave the beer in primary for more than a week before harvesting your slurry.

Al


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## damoninja

So, I've pulled ripped the cake outta the FV and put into some sterile bottles (there was SHITLOADS). 

It's been sitting for about an hour and hasn't really produced the strata I expected..... 






Should I pitch any parts of this? Or one of the whole bottles? Or abandon and use a fresh pack? 

I've got 18 minutes left on my boil, then chill and whack it in the FV.


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## technobabble66

What happened? What did u do?

Looks like a great amount of reclaimed yeast cake. Bit odd it's all white!? Did it settle out & stratify?


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## damoninja

technobabble66 said:


> What happened? What did u do?
> 
> Looks like a great amount of reclaimed yeast cake. Bit odd it's all white!? Did it settle out & stratify?


It's veeeery slowly settling to form a thin layer of lighter yeast on top... But pretty thin... 

I've spread it out into a few smaller bottles and I'm putting it in the fridge (no point wasting it) see if it's salvageable


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## technobabble66

Sorry - of no help. Never done the yeast cake thing. Hoping to do it with the cake when bottling in the next few days. 
At a guess the bottle on the left or right might b ok to pitch straight in. 
What's Yob estimate? 200ml cake slurry into each bottle. That equates to vaguely enuff yeast slurry in the rinsed bottle to pitch straight into the FV. Sound right?


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## damoninja

No worries - I don't doubt that pitching part of this might have been OK but I don't want to go overkill this one with trub, I can see it producing a lot being a slightly bigger beer than I have been brewing. 


:icon_offtopic: 155 grams of hops in 25 litres is nuts! As they're setting there's like a foot of thick hoppy goodness ^_^ will have to be like a half inch of hops when it's done.


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## Yob

The bottle on the left looks to have almost the right volume of slurry ratio, is it being done at room temp?

I find that the taller and thinner the jar, the better the separation. I've got to rinse some Greenbelt in the next day or so And will make sure to take a couple of relevant piccies for you.


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## damoninja

Yob said:


> The bottle on the left looks to have almost the right volume of slurry ratio, is it being done at room temp?
> 
> I find that the taller and thinner the jar, the better the separation. I've got to rinse some Greenbelt in the next day or so And will make sure to take a couple of relevant piccies for you.


Room temp, kitchen was 22 degrees at the time... I've started collecting passata jars but way underestimated the amount of trub that I would have...

This was my first cold crash, so I'm assuming there's sediment caused by this?


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## Camo6

I keep a collection of pasta sauce jars for the same reason. I bought a $50 electric pressure cooker from Aldi and can sterilise around four jars at a time. Then tip one or two onto yeast cake and recover into the same jars. Top up with another jar, rinse, repeat etc etc. I've also been sterilising the odd jar of starter wort for topping up stepped starters without having to do a small boil first. Just got to remember to leave all the lids loose in the cooker and wear protective gear when handling. And let them cool slowly.


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## damoninja

Camo6 said:


> I keep a collection of pasta sauce jars for the same reason. I bought a $50 electric pressure cooker from Aldi and can sterilise around four jars at a time. Then tip one or two onto yeast cake and recover into the same jars. Top up with another jar, rinse, repeat etc etc. I've also been sterilising the odd jar of starter wort for topping up stepped starters without having to do a small boil first. Just got to remember to leave all the lids loose in the cooker and wear protective gear when handling. And let them cool slowly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20131104_101936.jpg


I'm planning on doing the same... I just boil my jars in water for 20 minutes, gets the labels off nicely at the same time... In a second pot I boil the water that's going into the jars and scoop it up while it's still boiling.


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## breakbeer

Glad I read this thread, I've been using fresh packs of US 05 for years but now want to start re-using it as yeast is now the most expensive part of my brew


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## of mice and gods

Your yeast is more expensive than your grist? 

you must have a hell of a secret there.


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## damoninja

breakbeer said:


> Glad I read this thread, I've been using fresh packs of US 05 for years but now want to start re-using it as yeast is now the most expensive part of my brew


My thoughts exactly. 

I've decided the next time I do it I'm going to do my brew the day before I need to harvest the yeast and no-chill it in some cubes so I don't need to rush.

Plus I've got some time off work so I'm going to make sure all my cubes are full so I can pitch some super easy brews when I'm back at work.


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## Yob

damoninja said:


> I'm planning on doing the same... I just boil my jars in water for 20 minutes, gets the labels off nicely at the same time... In a second pot I boil the water that's going into the jars and scoop it up while it's still boiling.


Technically, if you want sterile water, you need to boil it 3 times over 3 days, spores can survive a single boil and bud again.. hence the multiple boils, allowing enough time between boils for spores to bud.

I keep a 3lt milk container in the brew cupboard of such water I use for all my rinsing... for the good it does me, it at least makes me feel better about the process.


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## breakbeer

of mice and gods said:


> Your yeast is more expensive than your grist?
> 
> you must have a hell of a secret there.


Or I get really cheap grain & pay too much for my yeast

Actually, now that I do the sums the grain works out at roughly $8.25 per batch & a pack of US05 costs me about $7

Re using the yeast would almost halve my costs


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## toncils

That's awesome.Any secret to getting really cheap grain?


Just bottled a choc stout, very heavy on the cocoa. I'm in the process of rinsing the yeast, but I have a terrible feeling it's going to taint my next brew; a golden ale.


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## breakbeer

toncils said:


> That's awesome.Any secret to getting really cheap grain?.


No secret, just keep an eye on the Bulk Buy section of this forum


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## damoninja

Yob said:


> Technically, if you want sterile water, you need to boil it 3 times over 3 days, spores can survive a single boil and bud again.. hence the multiple boils, allowing enough time between boils for spores to bud.
> 
> I keep a 3lt milk container in the brew cupboard of such water I use for all my rinsing... for the good it does me, it at least makes me feel better about the process.


Huzzah! Thanks again Yob.

I've got plenty of time between now and my next brew so I'll give this a shot!

I've also got 2 cubes sitting here doing nothing except holding my star san between uses... I might just boil up a full pot or two and store in here between boils and before I transfer to my smaller containers.


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## technobabble66

Just need a bit of advice/re-assurance:

This is my first time rinsing.
After much reading, i followed what i thought was the same protocol as Wolfy, only to discover i messed up the lots of it.
I threw ~1.5L (wrong) into the yeast cake in the FV. Then swirled it vigorously & let it settle for 15min (wrong!), then poured the yeasty looking stuff into 3 vessels (a 700mL glass & 2x 1.25L PETs) - maybe 200-300mL in each (too much - looked ok at the time). Filled with sterile water. Shook vigorously & let sit.
Very Very Very slow to settle, so i waited a full 24hrs. It had dropped all the hops slop, a band of white (yeast i was hoping), and a truckload of stuff still in suspension. So a decanted off most of the suspension stuff & refilled with water. I've now done this twice & i still have a lot of stuff in suspension.

What i need to know is whether i decant/toss all the stuff in suspension, assuming all the yeast i want is in the white band above the the bottom hops layer?

I plan to brew today/now & are relying on this yeast - so basically, is the white layer 2nd from the bottom the yeast layer i can pitch straight into the wort (of one vessel & save the other 2 vessels)??

1st pic - First rinse after 30min
2nd pic - First rinse after 24hrs
3rd pic - 2nd rinse, after 24hrs to settle (including 8hrs in fridge)
4th pic - 3rd rinse, also after 24hrs to settle (including 8hrs in fridge)


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## Yob

The problem you face is that the stuff still in suspension is likely to be the less floculent yeast.. and an unknown quantity..

24hrs is way too long to be making the selection as loads of healthy yeast, having found noting to munch on will have settled down to the bottom.

Personally, I'd be pouring off the clear liquid at the top and giving the rest a good swirl and topping up to the 3/4 full level again, leave for 20 mins and decant the liquid to another container.. for 2 of those collected bottles.

The problem you will have then is that you will have a large volume of liquid containing your yeast that will require time to settle out.

The other option is just to wing it and pour off the clear liquid on top of, say the jar with the green lid, give it a good swirl and pitch the lot. you could try tipping as much as possible out and adding back say 300ml and trying to let the shit settle and 'try' and get the clean stuff but I dont like your chances and will be hit and miss anyway.

It takes a while to get the procedures and the right equipment down pat mate, keep at it.


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## technobabble66

Thanks Yob,
Yeah i was worried about selecting the poorly flocc'ing yeasties.
But i thought i was meant to get ~4 layers - hops, dead yeast/trub, good yeast, floaties/liquid.
So i wasnt sure if the last 2 layers are represented in the liquid stuff still in suspension, though the time taken to get to this stage is ridiculous!

What did i do wrong, do you think?

Are you saying the 2nd layer from the bottom is the one i want & basically just toss all remaining liquid, or i should try to save the lower ~1/3rd of the liquid also? I guess it's complicated slightly by me wanting to pitch one of them & save the other 2.

What i was thinking was the 2 PETs i'll save - so keep fluffing around with rinsing them.
The glass jar i was going to pitch later today. So: toss all the liquid. Pour in ~300-400mL sterile water, shake, let sit for 15-30min to let the hops settle out a bit & pour in all remaining liquid as the pitching yeast.

I think that's what you're saying, correct?

Do you reckon there's enough yeast in the glass jar by the look of it?

Apologies for the 20 questions!! :unsure:


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## technobabble66

Faaaarrk - just cooked my mash while typing the above post!!! :angry: 

Did a 7min rest at 52°C & was ramping the urn up to 66°C. I checked it after 5mins - got to 56°C. Left it for what i thought was another 5 mins - suddenly up to 73°C. Pulled the bag & chucked in some cold water to drop it back to 65°C after a couple on minutes. Hopefully the Beta is still viable & the Alpha still has some stuff to work on when i do my 72°C step in an hour.

It's a S&W Pacific Ale clone, so hopefully it'll still be ok!
Maybe the yeast doesn't matter so much any more ^_^

Bugger, bugger, bugger!!!! :angry: 

Anyways, back to the yeasties, nothing to see here...


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## Camo6

If you can see a white line of yeast on your trub you've waited too long. You want to collect this yeast while still in suspension. Trub and hops settle quickly and once they do you want to get the good stuff off the top of it. Leave some liquid behind rather than pour trub into your new vessel. This liquid should then be allowed to settle overnight or rinsed again.
Sounds like your pushed for time though. If you can pour off most of the liquid from the left bottle top up, shake and wait for the trub to settle (10-15mins) then keep the liquid on top which has all the yeast. Pitch this liquid and hope for the best. Sorry, chilling a saison atm so on phone.


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## technobabble66

Thanks Camo6

Between you & Yob, i think i've now got enough of an idea what to do here. Or at least i'm confident enough to have a crack at it.

Good luck with the saison!


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## Camo6

Sorry, didn't see Yob's post and couldn't make out pics too well outside. You got loads of yeast in the middle and right bottles too. I'd go with Yob's advice and just pitch the yeast and trub. A bit of roughage works wonders. Good news is I finished the saison. Hit my volumes but was down 2 points on OG. Close enough for me. Keen to see what this belle saison can do.


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## technobabble66

technobabble66 said:


> ...
> What i was thinking was the 2 PETs i'll save - so keep fluffing around with rinsing them.
> The glass jar i was going to pitch later today. So: toss all the liquid. Pour in ~300-400mL sterile water, shake, let sit for 15-30min to let the hops settle out a bit & pour in all remaining liquid as the pitching yeast.
> ...


Did this.

I pitched the yeast in the glass jar about half an hour ago.
After ditching the liquid, i added 400ml water, let sit while i continued brewing. After a few hours, I tossed 50-100ml of clear liquid at the top. Re-shook the jar. Let sit for 10-15mins, then pitched all liquid into the FV, minus about 50ml of crud in the bottom.

Thanks to Yob & Camo6 for their help.

Fingers crossed !


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## pist

Just my personal opinion, however for the cost of a new packet of yeast, i think this outweighs the risk of infection/spoilage. I personally would not entertain the idea of reusing yeast.


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## Yob

Practicing on a cheaper yeast like 05 is a good way to learn the procedures without stuffing up liquids, by the time the methods are down pat and liquids come along, everything falls into place easily.

Another reason for doing so is the performance of yeast gets better with usage, at the 3-5 uses, yeast has become climatised to your brewery and is really cranking along. (Well it does for me anyway)

all in all, its just another facet of what is an amazingly diverse hobby.. you don many coats to be a home brewer


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## technobabble66

Yep. Spot on, Yob. 
I hate risking an infection, but this seemed the best way to learn how to rinse yeast on a cheaper packet & a pretty straight forward brew. And I'm keen to see what round 2 brings. 

I re-used BRY-97, btw. 

9 hrs later there's no sign of activity. Boo! I was hoping it'd fire quickly as one of the improvements people seem to get on the 2nd use of the yeast. 
Fingers still crossed!


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## wbosher

I'm doing the same thing at the moment, reusing us-05 on a cheap kit brew for practice. Cloudy as all hell just like yours techno, 24 hours in the fridge and only a centimeter or two clear beer at the top. Sitting in a 750ml PET bottle.

Thinking about just decanting that little bit of beer and pitching the lot once it warms up a little tonight.

I've got another PET bottle which I've separated into two 500ml jars, also in the fridge for 24 hours, and also cloudy as hell. Once they clear a little I'm thinking of decanting the beer and practice washing them as per Wolfy's thread.


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## wbosher

Well, just pitched about 500ml of three day old slurry, unwashed. In the process of washing the rest of the yeast as we speak...

Interested to see how long until it kicks off. Brewing the Coopers IPA, my favourite kit brew by a long stretch.


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## technobabble66

Mine took a little while to fire. 13 hrs & the first bubble cleared the airlock (earlier, it wz v tempting to write a "my airlock's not bubbling thread...). Pretty much exactly the lag when I've previously used BRY-97. But not much action really - like a bubble every 10-60 mins Another 24 hrs later, a bubble every 2-4 secs. Nice 1cm clean krausen. All good so far!
I've continued playing with the 2 PET bottles of yeast. 
I think I jumped into the rinsing too quickly, in hindsight, & skipped a separating step or 2. Live and learn!


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## wbosher

I think I may have stuffed up the washing part too. Didn't put any water in with the trub before putting it into the PET bottles. Very hard to see any separation.

Quite clear now but I've washed it three times now and am a little nervous that I may have introduced an infection. I've been careful and sprayed everything anywhere near the yeast with starsan obsessively...and boiled the hell out of the jars. Probably fine, just nervous.

Only pitched a couple of hours ago, already a thin layer of krausen on top!!!


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## Yob

the taller and thinner the rinsing bottle the better, those 1.5lt V8 jars are the bomb.. not selling them here though now so rare as rocking horse shit.. 

IF y'all are having a play, I suggest this

3 identical jars with increasing amounts of trub in each, 2 fingers, 3 fingers and 4 fingers, fill up to the 3/4 full and shake the shit out of them and take a photo every 10 minutes for 3 hours, having a mandatory glass of beer at every photo.

After the 3 hours, look through the photos and notice the difference in separation, the thicker the mix the harder it is to notice the separation and the longer it takes to stratify, Ive been known to rinse a jar 3 times to get my "100ml" of rinsed yeast and the more you rinse a jar the better it stratifies.


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## wbosher

Thanks Yob. I've definitely noticed that the layers are far more obvious after a few washes. Got them sitting in the fridge now to see how they look once they settle. Before washing they just looked like mud. The unwashed slurry that I pitched is really taking off though.


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## Yob

Room temperature is the way to go mate, it'll settle out too fast when cold... that said, 05 is a bastard to do and you are learing the hard way (same as I did), it's a cloudy yeast resistant to floccing out at the best of times, so youll notice it takes a _*GOOD *_3 days to completely settle out in the fridge, it's actually interesting to watch, you can call it a mini FV almost and know how long what yeasts take to settle out, BRY-97 for instance drops like a bloody stone after about 24hrs..

I quite like the whole process and do it quite regularly even if I dont end up using it. Ive currently got a few jars of Greenbelt in there ready to rinse and a starter dropping clear :beerbang:

Oh Greenbelt, let us never part ways again :lol:


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## wbosher

I was leaving it at room temp in between washes, but I _think_ I've got it now. No noticeable line of trub at the bottom. That's why I thought I'd let it completely settle in the fridge to see how it looks.

So, if that all works out ok, just need to figure out what to do with it when the time comes. :lol:


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## technobabble66

Yob said:


> ... BRY-97 for instance drops like a bloody stone after about 24hrs..


Negatory, yakitori. Well at least for me: 24 hrs in fridge & was still cloudy. Though it had definitely cleared a lot by then. Makes me a bit scared to do 05 then, if 97's meant to be much better! 
Thanks for all your help, Yob. I've still got a lot to learn after stuffing a few things up on this first attempt. However, you steered me in the right direction & gave me enough confidence to 'ave a crack. Most appreciated! B)
What's this Greenbelt you speak of? I see it's meant to be exclusive to Austin LHBS in texas. How'd you get it? h34r: Or rather, where can i get it :lol:


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## Yob

I rather well known Yeast guru kindly gave me a little bit once.. if it wasnt for rinsing yeast Id never have been able to keep it going!! (and thanks to a neighbour who re-supplied me when mine went as far as I could get it at the time)

Happy to collect some slurry for you if you like? All you need do is come get it.

:icon_cheers:


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## wbosher

In your experience Yob, does 05 floc better, worse, or about the same 2nd time around?


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## Yob

erm... probably better, really depends to a degree on how you select when rinsing.. so it comes down to technique with your rinsing a little bit..

hope that makes sense?


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## technobabble66

Yob, I'd be stoked to grab a bit off you if it's not too much hassle. 
PM'd


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## Yob

No probs, bring a sanitised jar


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## toncils

Yob said:


> 3 identical jars with increasing amounts of trub in each, 2 fingers, 3 fingers and 4 fingers, fill up to the 3/4 full and shake the shit out of them and take a photo every 10 minutes for 3 hours, having a mandatory glass of beer at every photo.
> 
> After the 3 hours, look through the photos and notice the difference in separation



...if you can still see.

"Yeast washing; the drinking game"


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## Yob

hence the photo's are required


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## Screwtop

Must be time for my favourite bitch! WhyTF does anyone want to reuse a dried yeast worth $5 - $7.

Tightarsedness belongs on some other forum, not on a forum which principally exists to provide valuable advice to brewers wanting to produce quality homebrewed beer! FFS. 

From the manufactures spec sheet:
Viable cells at packaging: > 6 x 109 /g
Total bacteria*: < 5 / ml Acetic acid bacteria*: < 1 / ml Lactobacillus*: < 1 / ml Pediococcus*: < 1 / ml Wild yeast non Saccharomyces*: < 1 / ml Pathogenic micro-organisms: in accordance with regulation *when dry yeast is pitched at 100 g/hl i.e. > 6 x 106 viable cells / ml
40

Dried yeast contains high levels of Spoilage Micro Organisms which you do not really want in your beer. Why, well this is simply due to the production process required to produce dried yeast. It is designed as a one use in the homebrewing situation. A great yeast when pitched at the correct pitching rate and fermented at recommended fermentation management specs. Some commercial breweries recover spent dried yeast YES. Using conical fermenters and utilising a racking arm to draw the best yeast cells from mid depth of the trub. Still not ideal, some acid wash the yeast to obtain the best healthy cells for repitching.

Ale yeast (top fermenting) should be collected from from the top during fermentation. Most homebrewers collect from the bottom of their fermentation vessel. This yeast contains all of the stuff which you do not want and only very little of what you do want.

Good fermentation in homebrewing requires good quality yeast pitched at proper pitching rates and proper fermentation management. 

It's simple really !!!!!



Screwy


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## Yob

To be fair Screwey, other rare yeast which aren't widely available have been discussed and offered to share and without the rinsing technique that's been discussed it wouldn't be possible.


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## Screwtop

Yob said:


> To be fair Screwey, other rare yeast which aren't widely available have been discussed and offered to share and without the rinsing technique that's been discussed it wouldn't be possible.



Cheers Yobbie point taken. But I was referring to dried yeast as per the OP. Homebrewers should not expect much from reusing dried yeast, thats it!!!


Probably expect the expected!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Byran

I expect that quite a few people tend to expect the expected. Unless you were expecting the unexpected........perhaps?


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## technobabble66

Hey Screwy,

FWIW, maybe check posts 79 & 80.

Your argument seems pretty strong, & as a newbie i'd happily defer to both those facts & your experience as a brewer.
However, as a newbie, i was keen to practice on something that is cheap & easily replaced if anything goes pear-shaped, and hopefully was somewhat robust (could be wrong there given the data you presented).

TBH, i might've practiced on whatever was in the fermenter at the time when i finally decided to give this yeast rinsing thing a crack. It just happened to be BRY-97. Admittedly, now that i've done it wish i had've made the move to rinsing a few months earlier to re-use the Kolsch yeast from the first batch i did using a liquid yeast.

On the other hand, a major reason i decided to give it a crack was precisely because, as mentioned, it was a cheap robust yeast; and that gave me enough confidence to take the plunge on the spur of the moment.

A few minor mistakes and patches of confusion later & i now have my first re-used yeast finishing up a fermentation, and i'm doing the last stages of rinsing on the rest of the BRY-97 i saved. :super:
More importantly, i think i have a better idea of what the hell i'm doing, so the WLP-351 i have sitting in the fridge is likely to get a much smoother run with its starter (will be my first) and its subsequent re-use.

Oh and now i've done it once - like so much of what i've done in brewing so far - i just kinda think - damn, that's all it is? ... just pour some gunk into jars, fill with water, swish around a bit every now and then, pour into other jars, etc, and that's it. Piece of cake!! B) However i still remember 2 weeks ago, reading & re-reading a few threads wondering WTF, and have i got this sequence right, etc? :blink:

my 2c

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## wbosher

For me, it's all about practice. I'm going to start using liquid yeast very soon probably in my next batch, or the one after that, and want to get the collection/washing/starter process sorted on a cheap yeast before jumping into liquid.

Like techno, it's helped demystify the whole thing. Just reading about it didn't really click until I tried it. Now by experimenting with us-05 first, I'm pretty confident I can wash and reuse 1469 without any major fuckups.  ...fingers crossed.


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## Camo6

In all fairness Screwy, the OP did state the reasons for reusing us-05 in his first post and mentioned several more times by others.
It may not be a good practice but its good practice.


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## shaunous

Some of us are tight arses Screwy, or at least think we are.

If we can save $5 on reusing a dried yeast we think were winning, but do we think about the cost of running kegerators, fermenting fridges, lagering fridges and so on, Naaaaaah, wouldnt cost that much


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## DJ_L3ThAL

Have to disagree with Screwy for the same reasons mentioned above and also from my recent experience with a 3rd generation US05 made in a starter pitched correctly, it was a standout fermentation, finished quick, flocced great and is currently cold conditioning as the clearest beer I have made thus far. So there are performance benefits in reusing just like with liquid yeast.


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## damoninja

shaunous said:


> Some of us are tight arses Screwy, or at least think we are.
> 
> If we can save $5 on reusing a dried yeast we think were winning, but do we think about the cost of running kegerators, fermenting fridges, lagering fridges and so on, Naaaaaah, wouldnt cost that much


I've got a killawatt linked up to my brewing fridge now, so far this month it's costed me about $7 to run it. 

It's a non-negotiable cost opposed to yeast, I just make sure that I have a few brews lined up in a row that will be OK using the same yeast and I don't even have to worry about storage or much fussing about. 

My average cost is about $25-30 for a 25 litre brew... So knocking $5 off is a substantial impact for minimal risk and effort.


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## shaunous

damoninja said:


> So knocking $5 off is a substantial impact for minimal risk and effort.


Amen to that!!!


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## wbosher

Well I've just cracked a taster from this little experiment and I'm actually quite pleased with the result. Used a kit beer so wouldn't be too upset if it went tits up, but it's good, still young but good.

2nd time around this yeast is sticking like glue to the bottom of the bottle, didn't even need to decant it, just poured straight into the glass...twice.

Really confident now about my first foray into liquid yeast, bring on the 1469


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## chefsantos

I'm on my 3rd use of us05 and it seems to be brewing great. I have re-used used this yeast not to be a tight arse but because the fact is I work shitty hours and don't get many chances to get to a brew shop. The one day I have off (Sunday,) they are all closed. So I figure re using yeast is better then not brewing at all.


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## esssee

I see reusing yeast as part of the "craft". It's another variable that you can play with.

I wonder if all of those Professional Brewers who use US-05, and reuse it are ruining their beer?


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## fletcher

i don't know why people have felt the need to justify why they re-use it. i reckon it's great. keep at it if it's working for you!


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