# St Rogue Red Ale - Dry Hopped



## mika (10/5/09)

Bought a bottle from the IBS a couple of weeks back, only just got round to trying it the other night... OMFG ! Awesome !
So given the limited availability and not so limited price, I want to brew a clone. Which I've never really done before.

Did some google searching and came up with;

From Rogue;

Malts: Great Western Harrington, Klages, Munich & Hugh Baird Carastan 30-37 & 13-17, Crystal 70-80. 

Hops: Chinook & Centennial.

Yeast & Water: Rogue's Pacman Yeast & Free Range Coastal Water. 
Specs: 

13 PLATO 
44 IBU
73.1 AA
27 Lovibond

Supposedly from a BYO Clone recipe;

St. Rogue Red Ale Clone
5 Gallons, All Grain
OG: 1052
FG: 1015
IBU: 42
SRM: 26
ABV: 4.8%

7 lb. 2 row malt
1 lb. Munich
1 lb. Crystal 15
1.25 lb Crystal 40
1 lb. Crystal 75
10.5 AAU Chinook hops (90 min)
(0.95 oz of 11% alpha)
9.5 AAU Centennial hops (whirlpool or hopback)
(1 oz of 9.5% alpha)
Wyeast 1056 of WLP 001 

Mash at 155 for 60 min. Ferment at 67
recipe assumes 65% efficiency 

From someone who'd attempted it about 4 times;

This grain bill;

6.00 lbs. Shrier 2-Row
2.00 lbs. Durst Munich
1.25 lbs. DWC CaraMunich
.75 lbs. DWC CaraVienne
.50 lbs. Briess Crystal 80*L
.50 lbs. Briess Crystal 40*L

Matched with this hop bill;

1.10 oz. Chinook Whole(11.3 AA, 60 min.)
.30 oz. Centennial Pellets (8.8 AA, 60 min.)
.50 oz. Centennial Pellets (8.8 AA, 15 min.)
.50 oz. Centennial Pellets (8.8 AA, 5 min.)
.30 oz. Chinook Whole(11.3 AA, 5 min.)

Was looking more favourably at the last option, but was wondering if anyone else had already attempted to clone it, or had any other thoughts. I'm not real good at tasting and inventing a recipe, I couldn't even pick the hop


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## randyrob (10/5/09)

yum yum yum yum yum one of my favs as well mr mika good luck with your crusade!


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## Weizguy (10/5/09)

Apparently most American ale yeasts will come close, but the Pacman strain is preferred.
Ferment Am ale yeast at 20C, but use Pacman at 60F (16C). This is from BYO mag.
The recipe published in Zymurgy suggests plenty of Hugh Baird product and 2 hop additions.

Cheers
Les


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## mika (10/5/09)

What are the Hugh Baird products like and what's carastan all about ?
I've still got some Rogue beer here, so could probably re-culture the yeast from the bottle. Otherwise I'm a big fan of WY1272.
I'm mostly concerned about the large amount of crystal in this beer. It really didn't seem to come thru in the taste, to me at least.


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## brendanos (10/5/09)

I'll certainly provide feedback and a reference sample.


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## Weizguy (10/5/09)

mika said:


> What are the Hugh Baird products like and what's carastan all about ?
> I've still got some Rogue beer here, so could probably re-culture the yeast from the bottle. Otherwise I'm a big fan of WY1272.
> I'm mostly concerned about the large amount of crystal in this beer. It really didn't seem to come thru in the taste, to me at least.


The red ale is a type of American amber, although usually more hoppy.
The Carastan is a light crystal made by (a Scottish mob of maltsters named) Bairds, according to their website, with some toffee flavour.
Red ales tend to use a variety of crystals and Munich to achieve a complex toffee/caramel/biscuit and toasty combination, on top of a light-flavoured malt base.

Hope this helps. I have been eyeing this recipe for a while and would really be happy to hear your results and final recipe. I have recently made an American amber, which is just starting to clear and taste true-to-type.

Beerz
Les


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## mika (10/5/09)

Hmm, might have to track down some more malts before I attempt this. I also haven't got any Centennial at the moment, so could be a while before I brew it. Just waiting for the weather to drop another couple of degrees so I can have fermenters out in the open, then I can really crank the brewing up.


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## Brewbloke (13/5/09)

Just tasted the Rogue Chipotle Ale on the weekend, extremley well balanced, smoked peppers sitting perfectly in the mix.


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## mika (23/12/09)

Props to RRob for help with the recipe, we've basically come to the conclusion that the yanks are mad using that much crystal, so have toned it down considerably and will work it from there. I'm only using 1272 as well, not any super pacman yeast, so will mash low for attenuation.
The IBU's are well over stated, but that's how I think my system comes out, always under on IBU's.
Might not come out as a great clone, but should be a nice beer regardless.

Rogue Red Ale - Clone attempt #1

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.00 Wort Size (L): 25.00
Total Grain (kg): 7.10
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.23
Anticipated SRM: 12.7
Anticipated IBU: 53.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
67.6 4.80 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 1.038 3
18.3 1.30 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 8
4.9 0.35 kg. Weyermann Caramunich I Germany 1.036 51
7.0 0.50 kg. Weyermann Carared Germany 1.036 24
2.1 0.15 kg. Bairds Dark Crystal 80L England 1.034 80

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
20.00 g. Hallertau Northern Brewer Pellet 7.60 16.7 60 min.
15.00 g. Magnum Whole 14.00 21.0 60 min.
5.00 g. Centennial Pellet 8.00 3.4 30 min.
5.00 g. Chinook Pellet 12.10 5.1 30 min.
5.00 g. Centennial Pellet 8.00 2.2 15 min.
5.00 g. Chinook Pellet 12.10 3.3 15 min.
5.00 g. Centennial Pellet 8.00 0.9 5 min.
5.00 g. Chinook Pellet 12.10 1.3 5 min.
20.00 g. Centennial Pellet 8.00 0.0 Dry Hop
20.00 g. Chinook Pellet 12.10 0.0 Dry Hop

Yeast
-----
WYeast 1272 American Ale II


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## Fourstar (23/12/09)

Looks good Mika, i have been tempted todo a clone of this and their american amber ale sometime soon with some serious pondering on crystal malt %'s and the colour achieved from various combinations. i think i have recipes i devised saved for both of them in beersmith. i'll post when i get home. I dont think my additions where as blended as yours, more of a one for one at different time intervals for layering.

Be interesting to see your results!


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## mika (23/12/09)

The colour is an interesting one. The website claims 22Lov, but that's frickin dark and I honestly don't remember it being that dark. I was going to add some carafa special to bump it up, but then liked the look of it in Promash and I typically end a shade or two darker than what Promash tells me anyway. If I'm only out on the colour once it's kegged, I can live with that.
The hops are basically to the BYO recipe and others I've seen. Though the BYO recipe uses the C hops for bitterness, I wasn't quite that game, and ended up wussing out and using the hop regime from a Tasty recipe, which has the softer NB at the start. I would have used all Magnum, but it was all I had left. I also like to have 2/3rds or more of my bitterness at 60mins as I usually see a lot of hop fade and with such a large precentage of crystal I was worried about the aroma and late hops dissappearing and leaving me with a cloyingly sweet beer.
We'll see.
I've already started subbing, ran out of trad ale malt and rather than open a bag of Barret Burston, decided to finish off the TF GP I had kicking around.


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## Fourstar (23/12/09)

mika said:


> The colour is an interesting one. The website claims 22Lov, but that's frickin dark and I honestly don't remember it being that dark. I was going to add some carafa special to bump it up, but then liked the look of it in Promash and I typically end a shade or two darker than what Promash tells me anyway. If I'm only out on the colour once it's kegged, I can live with that.
> The hops are basically to the BYO recipe and others I've seen. Though the BYO recipe uses the C hops for bitterness, I wasn't quite that game, and ended up wussing out and using the hop regime from a Tasty recipe, which has the softer NB at the start. I would have used all Magnum, but it was all I had left. I also like to have 2/3rds or more of my bitterness at 60mins as I usually see a lot of hop fade and with such a large precentage of crystal I was worried about the aroma and late hops dissappearing and leaving me with a cloyingly sweet beer.
> We'll see.
> I've already started subbing, ran out of trad ale malt and rather than open a bag of Barret Burston, decided to finish off the TF GP I had kicking around.



Dont trust that colour, its some "malt colour units" calculation. its described in Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels. 

Its descriped in this NB forum thread as. http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?t=40009

"I think for every malt in the batch you take the L of the malt, multiply it by how many lbs you are using, add them all up and divide by how many gallons the batch is"

So for yours its:

4.80 kg. JWM Traditional Ale Malt Australia 3 = 31.8
1.30 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 8 = 22.88
0.35 kg. Weyermann Caramunich I Germany 51 = 39.27
0.50 kg. Weyermann Carared Germany 24 = 26.4
0.15 kg. Bairds Dark Crystal 80L England 80 = 26.4

TOTAL is 146.75/6.604 gal = 22.22SRM compared to a expected SRM of 27 on the Rogue website. Maybe you do need more of the darker crystal.


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## RetsamHsam (23/12/09)

mika said:


> Supposedly from a BYO Clone recipe;
> 
> St. Rogue Red Ale Clone
> 5 Gallons, All Grain
> ...



Where are the 'dry hops' 

Edit: I see you have fixed this with the latest incarnation of the recipe.


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## mika (23/12/09)

Think they do a regular version and a dry hopped version, it was the dry hopped version that I wanted.
Interesting on the colour. If I pull out the iPhone and use the Brewmath app, there's not a lot of difference between 22 and 27, it's all dark so we'll see how it goes.
About to transfer to the kettle, so that will be a good indication.


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## randyrob (23/12/09)

Hey Mika,

Latest recipe looks gold, I really think you have a solid recipe there. Re guarding the colour i've got a "Santa's Private Reserve" which is supposed to be the Dry Hopped Red ale with twice the hops i'll have to crack it open and do a colour comparison for ya, but perhaps their quoted 22 Srm is based on the recipe before the crazy pacman yeast strips some of the colour?

I punched your recipe into my software and pretty much got the same specs as you:

*Mika's Ass Hat Red Rocket Ale*

Original Gravity (OG): 1.054
Colour (SRM): 12.4
Bitterness (IBU): 56.2

67.6% Pale Ale Malt
18.3% Munich I
4.9% Caramunich I
7% Carared
2.1% Crystal 80

0.8 g/l Northern Brewer @ 60 Minutes
0.6 g/l Magnum @ 60 Minutes
0.2 g/l Centennial @ 30 Minutes
0.2 g/l Chinook @ 30 Minutes
0.2 g/l Centennial @ 15 Minutes
0.2 g/l Chinook @ 15 Minutes
0.2 g/l Centennial @ 5 Minutes
0.2 g/l Chinook @ 5 Minutes
0.8 g/l Centennial @ Dry Hop
0.8 g/l Chinook @ Dry Hop

Single step Infusion at 65*C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 20*c with 1272

Recipe Generated with BrewMate


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## randyrob (23/12/09)

Yeah no way it's 22 srm by the time it makes it to us in the bottle, more like 14 srm by my eye balls. 

I'm going to take a punt here and suggest that if you want the correct hue and not just a copper beer your going to need to add a smidge (technical term look t up on the dictionary) of roast barley to get you there!

Rob.


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## mika (23/12/09)

randyrob said:


> .....
> *Mika's Ass Hat ....*
> .....



Screw you !  

My batch size doesn't equal my fermenting size. I end up with 20L of wort, so the dry hopping is 2gm/L total, otherwise known as the Asher proportionality.


P.S. Maybe I am an ass hat. Just realised I've had my shirt on backwards all day :huh:


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## clean brewer (23/12/09)

I loved this beer, tried it about 6 months ago, perfect for Winter IMO.... :icon_drool2: 

:icon_cheers: CB


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## bradsbrew (23/12/09)

mika said:


> Screw you !
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ha Ha classic, Quite funny to realiser your shirt is bac to front when you take it off and the tag is at the front or when you go to put something in your polo pcket and realise your shirts inside out and no-one has told you <_< .

Brad


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## mika (23/12/09)

Well all done, in the fermenter cooling down the last couple of degrees. Pitch a little bit later.
Colour wasn't that far off I reckon. Sample is from the end so a lot of hop matter in there as well.


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## brettprevans (23/12/09)

I've got everything in stock for this recipe. It might have just moved into the next 5 brew list. Let us know how ut tastes


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## Fourstar (16/1/10)

How did this end up turning out mika? Housemate wants a traditional US AAA and i luurrrrve this beer so feedback would be great!


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## pmolou (26/1/10)

yeah i'd be interested in some feedback too, getting the Pacman Strain soon and planning this as my first beer to brew with it!


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## Fourstar (26/1/10)

pmolou said:


> yeah i'd be interested in some feedback too, getting the Pacman Strain soon and planning this as my first beer to brew with it!



Well i brewed the BYO version but i subbed the dark crystal for cararye and its going to be the dry hopped version. Should be interesting to say the least. St. Rogue Red Ale with a Rye twist. I also swapped the chinook bittering addition for magnum as its what i had on hand. When i get around to culturing some slants up of the pacman yeast i'll be fermenting this one out. Keep your eyes open on this for around a fortnights time. 

Ive attached my recipe below.

Cheers! :beerbang: 



Fourstar said:


> Well ive just doughed in on the St. Rye Red Ale (Rogue - St. rogue Red clone w/cararye as the dark crystal)
> 
> Attached is the real recipe (my figures where close though). Interesingly the cararye doesn't taste anything like a crystal malt. i get deep cocoa, some mild dark fruit and biscuity notes from it. observing the colours of the choc rye and cararye they are different (on the craftbrewer website) and mine seems to match the cararye colour. Maybe Ross or anyone else can chime in with some info if the cararye is supposed to taste like crystal malt?
> 
> ...


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## bconnery (26/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> Well i brewed the BYO version but i subbed the dark crystal for cararye and its going to be the dry hopped version. Should be interesting to say the least. St. Rogue Red Ale with a Rye twist. I also swapped the chinook bittering addition for magnum as its what i had on hand. When i get around to culturing some slants up of the pacman yeast i'll be fermenting this one out. Keep your eyes open on this for around a fortnights time.
> 
> Ive attached my recipe below.
> 
> Cheers! :beerbang:


Looks nice 4star! 
I've been looking around for ideas for two beers for the yeast (I'm lazy on the slanting front, I tend to just try and do two beers from a pack)
A revisit to the Hazelnut Brown is one but some big American Amber or Pale was definitely an idea. I'm a big fan of Centeniall as a US hop and a hop in general too. 
I've got some caramel rye there too...


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## Fourstar (26/1/10)

bconnery said:


> A revisit to the Hazelnut Brown is one but some big American Amber or Pale was definitely an idea.



yeah, ive been planning a sequel to the hazelnut brown for a while too. The next one i will follow more to rogues original and add a bucketload of caramalt/crystal to keep the sweetness up (10-15%~), a touch of carafa for colour and a block of 85% lindt @ flameout! I'll keep the IBU low with a single boil addition @ 20IBU~ filtered and direct to the keg with 1/2 bottle of hazelnut essence again. Awesome :icon_drool2: 

This is the plan for it so far. Might give you some ideas.

Hazelnut Brown Ale II 
American Brown Ale 

Type: All Grain
Date: 6/08/2009 
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Brewer: Braden 
Boil Size: 30.90 L 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Brew Pot (40L) and Frosty Cooler (38L) 
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.0 

Ingredients 
4.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (1.7 SRM) Grain 73.4 % 
0.50 kg Caramalt (Joe White) (17.3 SRM) Grain 9.2 % 
0.40 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 7.3 % 
0.25 kg Crystal (Joe White) (34.2 SRM) Grain 4.6 % 
0.20 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM) Grain 3.7 % 
0.10 kg Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) Grain 1.8 % 
15.00 gm Magnum [10.50%] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 19.4 IBU 
5.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
25.00 ml Hazelnut Extract (Bottling 0.0 weeks) Misc 
100.00 gm Chocolate (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.9 %
Bitterness: 19.4 IBU
Est Color: 19.4 SRM 

Mash Profile 
Mash In Add 14.40 L of water at 73.4 C 67.0 C 60 min 
Mash Out Add 8.23 L of water at 97.0 C 77.0 C 10 min 

Notes
2g CaCl2 into the mash
3g CaCl2 into the boil

Add hazelnut extract to keg, 1.5ml per 1L (25-30ml~ a keg)


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## ozpowell (26/1/10)

Fourstar said:


> yeah, ive been planning a sequel to the hazelnut brown for a while too. The next one i will follow more to rogues original and add a bucketload of caramalt/crystal to keep the sweetness up (10-15%~), a touch of carafa for colour and a block of 85% lindt @ flameout! I'll keep the IBU low with a single boil addition @ 20IBU~ filtered and direct to the keg with 1/2 bottle of hazelnut essence again. Awesome :icon_drool2:
> 
> This is the plan for it so far. Might give you some ideas.
> 
> ...



Brewed a Rogue Hazelnut Brown Nectar clone last year (used Chico yeast instead of the Pacman though). Turned out great! You'll need to give it a few weeks for the hazelnut essence to settle down. Here's my recipe FYI.

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Rogue Hazelnut Brown Nectar Clone
Brewer: Michael Powell
Style: American Brown Ale
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 28.00 L 
Boil Size: 39.56 L
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 18.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 34.9 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
4.40 kg Maris Otter (Hugh Baird) (2.6 SRM) Grain 66.57 % 
0.80 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (8.0 SRM) Grain 12.10 % 
0.65 kg Crystal Medium (Hugh Baird's) (72.0 SRM) Grain 9.83 % 
0.30 kg Brown Malt (Hugh Baird's) (65.0 SRM) Grain 4.54 % 
0.18 kg Caramalt (Barrett Burston) (20.0 SRM) Grain 2.72 % 
0.18 kg Crystal Dark (Hugh Baird's) (130.0 SRM) Grain 2.72 % 
0.10 kg Chocolate Malt, Pale (Bairds) (250.0 SRM) Grain 1.51 % 
54.00 gm Pearle [6.00 %] (60 min) Hops 28.8 IBU 
15.00 gm Sterling [5.90 %] (30 min) Hops 6.0 IBU 
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
1.60 tbsp 5.2 Stabilizer (Buffer) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc 
1.60 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc 
20.00 ml Hazelnut Essence (Bottling 0.0 min) Misc 
2 Pkgs SafAle American Ale (DCL Yeast #US-56 (S-0Yeast-Ale 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 6.61 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp 
70 min Mash In Add 17.25 L of water at 73.0 C 67.0 C 
10 min Mash Out Add 11.03 L of water at 90.9 C 75.6 C 


Notes:
------
Aeration stone for 20mins prior to fermentation.


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## mika (29/1/10)

Well.... I had issues.
I mashed fairly low at a smidge below 66, but with all that crystal it seems as though you need to go lower. FG was 1014 which is OK, but not great. It originally stopped even higher than that, but I managed to rouse it enough to get it lower. Colour is off, stripped a bunch in fermentation. Still kinda red, but has that more murky river water brown colour going on, my signature colour  . Clarity is woeful, though not a big deal in a dry hopped beer. Bitterness is not where it should be. I loved the Rogue because it almost tasted like you were drinking hop juice in the finish, my version misses out badly, the chinook had been around a while, but was still sealed in the packet, I can't real pick much of it up. I'd double the dry hopping without thinking about it and I'd be looking for more overall bitterness as well (perhaps 5 IBU ?), it's fairly well balanced at the moment, but as that late hop flavour fades, it's going to end up too sweet. I'm getting a weird background flavour in the finish, that might be one of the crystal malts, not sure which one, but I'm not a fan of it. Hop aroma is AWOL as well. The hops are the real dissappointment, after such a heavy handed hopping schedule I would have expected more, but the hops really don't pop. Maybe I need to take a closer look at my sulphate concentrations.
So... yeah, maybe if I hadn't spent ages trying to beat it down to a lower FG it might not have some of the issues it has, but I still wouldn't be brewing it without some fairly radical changes.


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## bcp (29/1/10)

mika said:


> Well.... I had issues.
> I mashed fairly low at a smidge below 66, but with all that crystal it seems as though you need to go lower.


Wait. Help me understand. 
Low mash temperatures suit the beta amylase, converting more dextrines to maltose... lightening the body of the beer.
So... 
i. With THIS beer you wanted a lighter body? or
ii. With most beers with high gravity you may need the beta amylase to help get to lower gravity? or
iii. Something else, i'm not even on the same page?


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## Supra-Jim (29/1/10)

Hi bcp,

I think this recipe had/has a fair whack of crystal in it, which increases the body (via unfermentables) and also adds to perceived sweetness. Hence you'd probably want to mash lower than you normally would to acheived the desired FG/body for the beer.

Cheers SJ


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## Fourstar (29/1/10)

Supra-Jim said:


> Hi bcp,
> I think this recipe had/has a fair whack of crystal in it, which increases the body (via unfermentables) and also adds to perceived sweetness. Hence you'd probably want to mash lower than you normally would to acheived the desired FG/body for the beer.
> Cheers SJ



Take mine for instance, 21% Crystal malts! I must admit, i usually mash @ around 64-66 as i usually want a drier beer anyway. Im going to pitch the yeast (PACMAN) on this sucker as soon as i buy some more base malt as i really want to pump out an IPA (simple yellow snow style malt bill) and maybe a maibock (dead guy ale) using the pacman yeast. If i get a chance to fly by the brewshop on saturday before cricket I'll be picking some grain up.  

if all things goto plan (and the weather stays cool), i'll be pitching come sunday or monday and hopefully hitting my brain by mid February!


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## mika (29/1/10)

bcp said:


> Wait. Help me understand.
> Low mash temperatures suit the beta amylase, converting more dextrines to maltose... lightening the body of the beer.
> So...
> i. With THIS beer you wanted a lighter body? or
> ...



i. / Yep
ii. / Yep.
iii. / Probably :huh: 

It's a bit counter intuitive, but after throwing all those big crystal malts in there, at the end of the day you still want a dry finish to the beer. You can only hide so much behind hops before it becomes too cloying. You can use a regular mash and still produce a balanced beer (probably need a few more hops), but it will only be good for a pint or two. I wanted to be able to have 4 or more of this beer without feeling like I'd chugged a coupla cups of sugar.


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## pmolou (29/1/10)

Does anyone have any recommendations for an extract brewer/ partial mash brewer??
in regards to getting a drier finish, I've heard if you partial mash with a base grain at whatever temperature it converts the rest of the malt extract/carbohydrates to that temp (as if you'd mashed it) I'm obviously not all that clear on how it works

PS: Sorry for the slight highjack


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## Fourstar (1/3/10)

well went to pitch the yeast on this cube of St Rye red ale today and ive had my 1st cube 'infection'. i didnt want to risk it as there was a black thick ring of mould around the thread/seal so i dumped it. It smelt kinda peppery but that might have ben the rye/hop combination although im kinda not surpised. 5 weeks with 50g of hops added to the cube is slightly excessive not to mention alot of up and down temperature days wreaking havoc on the cubes. 

Lesson learnt, limit cube hopping and ensure you clear all residue from the thread/lid. Hey, i cant really complain. 61 AG brewed and no chilled and only 1 with a cube infection. None with fermentation infections to date B) .

Looks like i'll be brewing this again on wednesday and fermented post haste!


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## bum (1/3/10)

Can you elaborate on the dry hopping as an infection source idea a little? Received wisdom suggests dry hops shouldn't really introduce anything suss. Any info/links greatly appreciated.

[EDIT: my condolences]


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## Fourstar (1/3/10)

bum said:


> Can you elaborate on the dry hopping as an infection source idea a little? Received wisdom suggests dry hops shouldn't really introduce anything suss. Any info/links greatly appreciated.
> [EDIT: my condolences]



sorry, not dry hopping in the fermenter but late hopping into the cube as i no chilled

i have had a procedure that had not failed me until now (still may not have been the source so i can't accurately confirm it.) but i usually add my equivilant whirlpool/hopback addition to the cube at 65-70deg~ to try and reduce isomerisation. As the pH isnt low enough to inhibit bacteria growth i point to this as a possible source. Although it was all around the cap thread so it may have been some syrupy wort left on the cube lid/thread and built up a funky culture. 

i usually dump a while tea kettle worth of water over the cubelid wehn i finish sealing it. i guess this may have failed me. The cube was still under vacuum but i didnt want to risk it.


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## mika (7/11/10)

OK, so lining up for attempt 2. Probably should have taken more tasting notes from attempt 1.
I wasn't happy with the hop flavour or aroma, so have upped the later additions to take care of that.
One brewer said there wasn't enough caramel type flavours in the beer. It may be that we're trying to replicate a beer that's aged pretty well by the time it gets here, but oh well. And I wasn't happy with the percentage crystal in all of that as it didn't attentuate very well at all.
So, I've reduced the overall crystal percentage, thrown out the Crystal 80 and subbed in Caraaroma, which people have described as caramelly, so hoping that does the trick, but I've never used it before.
And the yeast is a little different this time as well :beerbang: 
So, as it stands;



> Rogue Red Ale - Clone attempt #2
> 
> A ProMash Recipe Report
> 
> ...



I've gotta get the brewery ready, so probably start milling grain in about 45mins or so.
If someone reckons I'm going down the wrong path with what I want to achieve, let me know. Keen for sensible input.


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## Josh (7/11/10)

This beer was served at the 2010 NHC Grand Banquet along with the Morimoto Soba Ale and Double Mocha Porter.





From what I remember (and it had been a very big week), the dry hop character was prominent. I would think 2g/L would be the minimum for this beer. And you might even consider more than that. There is a crystal sweetness as to be expected. But if you've had Lagunitas Lucky 13, it is drier than that in the finish.




All hazy memories, but I hope it helps a little bit. The photos are fresh examples, though not in the best lighting.


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## mika (8/11/10)

Yeah, that was about my memories of it as well. I've got a bottle sitting in the fridge that I probably should have drunk by now. Not sure whether to sink it and start thinking about clone attempt no. 3 or to at least wait until attempt no. 2 has finished fermenting.
2g/L should result in a pretty damn hoppy beer, I'm hoping it will dry out a lot more this time and that should make the hops shine thru. Guess I'll find out in about a month.


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## Josh (1/12/10)

Brewed this today:

3.5kg Simpsons Maris Otter
1kg JW Munich
300g JW Crystal
300g Simpsons Med Crystal
300g Bairds Dark Crystal
6g CaSO4 mash & boil
64C mash 2 hours (drove to Absolute Homebrew for CO2 while mashing)
75C mashout & sparge

12g Chinook 11.4% 60 mins
30g Centennial 8.7% 20 mins
40g Centennial 8.7% cube
20g Centennial dry after 5 days
40g Chinook dry after 5 days

Planned OG was 1.052 but after a less than vi-garose boil, OG was only 1.044. Will add DME at pitching.

Got a starter of Wyeast Pacman waiting for this to cool down and be ready for fermentation.

I think the colour is okay. Was originally contemplating some black malt to darken it a little more. But I think it should be fine as it is. If I'm not happy with the colour I will steep some Carafa Special III and add when I add the dry hops.


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## mika (12/12/10)

Ok, so drinking attempt No. 2 beside a bottle of the real thing.
Swing and a miss !
Reckon the hop profile is closer, though I think perhaps the hop additions should have been balnced percentage wise with the AA percentage. I couldn't say categorically, but I think the Chinook comes thru a little stronger than it should.
Colour is off, the real beer being a good couple of points darker and a lot more reddish amber.
Problem with comparing beer that's shipped over and obviously older to "brewery fresh" versions, makes it hard to figure whether the flavour is real or a product of age.
I'm thinking my version needs more medium-dark crystal which would take care of the colour and some of the flavour. The real version came across a litte sweet initially with more crystal in the aroma and the hop flavour is probably not as strong as previous versions I've had.
The biggest problem with all of this would be getting the attenuation which even mashing low and the pacman yeast is going to struggle to do. I'm starting to wonder if this is an all malt beer and whether I should be replacing some of the base malt with dextrose or other simple sugar to get it dry enough.


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## mika (13/12/10)

Had another quick look at the bottle.

11 Ingredients, Harrington, Klages, Munich, Crystal 70-80, Hugh Baird Carastan 30/37 & 13/17 Malts. Chinook, Centennial & Rogue Farm Willamette Hops, Free range coastal water and Top fermenting Pacman Yeast


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## bum (13/12/10)

Most of their beers have had a bit of a shake-up over the last year or so with their own Willamette subbing out some other addition. As a result some of the beers have noticeably changed and your current batch may be a little closer to the older version you might be chasing.


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## Fourstar (13/12/10)

If you can add some bottle oxidation to bump the 'caramel' on the nose, you'll probabaly be spot on!


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## Josh (18/12/10)

Josh said:


> Brewed this today:
> 
> 3.5kg Simpsons Maris Otter
> 1kg JW Munich
> ...



I kegged this today.

Colour not really close. Needs to be darker and redder. I think the Carastan is the key to getting this beer right. Will try and source some of that for the next one.

Hop aroma and flavour are pretty close but it's a bit too bitter. I'll drop the cube hop by 10g and the 20 mins addition will be 5 mins to allow for the whirlpool and no-chill.

Pic looks slightly darker than it is.


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## mika (25/12/10)

What Lov was the JW Crystal?
I'm thinking mine needs more medium crystal of some description. Possibly even a little more light crystal as well. Just not sure which way to go to achieve that.


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## Josh (26/12/10)

mika said:


> What Lov was the JW Crystal?
> I'm thinking mine needs more medium crystal of some description. Possibly even a little more light crystal as well. Just not sure which way to go to achieve that.



No idea, it's in a bag labelled JW Crystal.

Having conditioned in the keg a while now, I'm very happy with the hops as they are and I won't be changing those as the beer is fine as is.

I'll still be changing my grain bill for more dark red character. And a little more roasty character.


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## mika (25/8/11)

Despite not having brewed in ages, I still listen to the BN and thanks to shuffle on the iPod, came across the old episode where they interviewed John Maier from Rogue. Show was on the 23-09-2007 and at about 1:45 in they discuss the Red Ale and then start talking about Santa's Private reserve, which is apparently the same malt base with extra hopping. John then mentions, that beer has 40% crystal malts in it, then mentions, Crystal 15, 40, 75 and munich malt. A short while later, there's mention of Chinook used as the bittering hop, nice high alpha.

That gives me a bit more to go on, so when I get back from Germany I'll need something to satisfy my hop craving. Attempt No. 3 at this could be the go.


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