# Sour beer not souring!



## checkers (10/10/16)

Sour brewers,

So I've been given a heap of mango cheeks and decided to try an make a mango sour.

Research has lead me to believe 5 caps of this here pure lacto culture into 23l of 1.045 wort lowered to ph4.8 with an estimated 4 IBU sitting at a constant 23c after 48hrs should drop to PH 3.4 or something similar.. problem is after 2 days my ph is still 4.8 and I'm starting to worry something else might take off in there very soon. Where did I go wrong??


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## checkers (10/10/16)




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## JDW81 (10/10/16)

I don't trust anything that has ethical in the title.

There is no way of knowing the viability of the lactobacillus in those capsules, or how they will respond to wort.

I'd be inclined to toss it, as if it hasn't started to sour in the first 24-48 hours it is unlikely to sours before it gets funky in a really bad way.

Next time I'd go with a commercial culture from white labs or wyeast. Might cost you a bit more, but at least you know you've got bugs that are bred to be pitched into wort.

JD


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## Salt (10/10/16)

checkers said:


> Sour brewers,
> 
> So I've been given a heap of mango cheeks and decided to try an make a mango sour.
> 
> Research has lead me to believe 5 caps of this here pure lacto culture into 23l of 1.045 wort lowered to ph4.8 with an estimated 4 IBU sitting at a constant 23c after 48hrs should drop to PH 3.4 or something similar.. problem is after 2 days my ph is still 4.8 and I'm starting to worry something else might take off in there very soon. Where did I go wrong??


Hey Checkers...

I have used this source of Lacto to inoculate my kettle sours with good success. While by no means am I a pro in Kettle Souring, with three batches under my belt. All three have come out really good with no detectable faults or off flavours. So take my steps as some info, and not gospel! My technique was pulled together from various online articles, podcasts, Milk the Funk wiki and discussions with Pro Brewers who kettle sour.

I recently posted this on another thread regarding Lacto...
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89263-lactobacillus/?p=1407032

In regards to what you have done...I think that 23c is too cool for kicking this Lacto off. From what I have read Lacto likes to be warm. I start my inoculation beteen 40c-45c and then let it free drop. However I the kettle wrapped in blankets on a mat under the stairs. However in Winter this is a pretty cool part of the house. I dont bother with a heat source etc, as this method has worked each time...so happy to keep doing it as it is pretty simple.

What is your grain bill? Are you standard mashing/sparging etc and collecting the wort. Do you heat to pasteurize first or do a short boil? Once you have dropped the wort to around 45c and lowered the pH with Lactic Acid (to around pH 4.5) then add a fair amount of CO2 to the kettle and cover with gladwrap and the pot lid.

You should get a drop in pH within the first 24hrs but I have always left it for 48hrs and not checked progression. But my latest dropped to pH 3.2 in 48hrs. 23Lts of 1.042 with 5 caps of this Lacto.

Oh, how are you adding the caps? Opening them and sprinkling in or whole caps. You will need to open them if you aren't and sprinkle in the powder.

And how are you measuring your pH? 

IBUs aren't important - as in to say...you dont need to add them pre-boil - leave them out if you want...or put them in for the fun of it...or add to boil post souring.


Mango sour is on my list. I have just done a Raspberry Berliner and it is tasting amazing pre-bottling.


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## RelaxedBrewer (10/10/16)

IBS contains lacto P I think it is highly intolerant to IBU and it prefers 30C+.

Most people that have had success with it have used a starter and sticking to 30C+ without and hops.


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## Salt (10/10/16)

JDW81 said:


> I don't trust anything that has ethical in the title.
> 
> There is no way of knowing the viability of the lactobacillus in those capsules, or how they will respond to wort.
> 
> ...


I would have to disagree - disagreeing based on my experience with this exact product, based on others I know who use it and also MTF members who have used it with great success...this is a pure culture and 100% Lacto Plantarum...20 Billion count per capsule. Why would you not trust it?

You might not know the viability, but the health shop should have these in the fridge when you buy them...however you don't know the viability and how well White Labs or Wyeast has been handled before it reaches you either.

There are a number of proven and documented ways to get a good culture of Lacto, probiotics caps, probiotic drinks, yoghurt etc 

I would not give up on using this product (however check dates on bottle etc)...however the batch in question I can't say whether to ditch it or not.

my 2c


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## checkers (10/10/16)

Salt said:


> Hey Checkers...
> 
> I have used this source of Lacto to inoculate my kettle sours with good success. While by no means am I a pro in Kettle Souring, with three batches under my belt. All three have come out really good with no detectable faults or off flavours. So take my steps as some info, and not gospel! My technique was pulled together from various online articles, podcasts, Milk the Funk wiki and discussions with Pro Brewers who kettle sour.
> 
> ...


Cheers bud,

Yes I believe I got the idea for this from you off here on a thread about PH?
Thanks heaps bud. 
So I've upped the temp to 33c
I used 4g of POR @60min boil
I cubed the beer then put it in feementer at 23c, sprinkled the 5 capsules over the wort, half blew in the headspace from a finished keg along with a little shit than thought that was a bad idea so just covered with glad wrap
Mash was 80% pils, 20% wheat @67 then [email protected] all in a homemade recirc biab keggle with 19l big w malt pipe
I'll give it tonight then I may just have to pitch my yeast anyway. Then if it's no good it's no good. :-(


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## checkers (10/10/16)

JDW81 said:


> I don't trust anything that has ethical in the title.
> 
> There is no way of knowing the viability of the lactobacillus in those capsules, or how they will respond to wort.
> 
> ...


hanks bud, yeah that might be the go and a little more research


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## damoninja (10/10/16)

Yeah I've used this strain from this brand and other brands, 3L test batch I did recently got to pH 3.2 and is sour like an unripe granny smith apple. 

These work for kettle souring just fine and shit loads of people use them. The viability of these depends on how they are stored, but plenty of L plantarum caps are stable at room temp. 

Pitch rate is fine I do 1 cap per 4L wort. 

My guess is these caps are fine but 4 IBU is too high. If you want to do this with these, sour first, bitter later.


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## checkers (10/10/16)

damoninja said:


> Yeah I've used this strain from this brand and other brands, 3L test batch I did recently got to pH 3.2 and is sour like an unripe granny smith apple.
> 
> These work for kettle souring just fine and shit loads of people use them. The viability of these depends on how they are stored, but plenty of L plantarum caps are stable at room temp.
> 
> ...


Thanks mate.

Do you think kettle souring using an exposed element in the wort hooked up to temp control would work? Or would the element scour have the little lactos hahaha


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## checkers (10/10/16)

*scorch


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## damoninja (10/10/16)

checkers said:


> Thanks mate.
> 
> Do you think kettle souring using an exposed element in the wort hooked up to temp control would work? Or would the element scour have the little lactos hahaha


The amount of actual bacteria that will be present in the wort won't be anything like a big yeast cake like you might be imagining and bacteria are 10s of times smaller than a yeast cell. You'll barely notice they're there, looks kinda like a bit of dust. 

Those dead bacteria once cooked will serve as great nutrient to your yeast


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## checkers (10/10/16)

Maaaad it's happening!!
Thanks bud!!!


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## checkers (11/10/16)

FYI - 3 hrs after pumping up to 40c!!


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## TheWiggman (11/10/16)

I was going to say that 23°C is too low. You need the wort in the right temp to support the growth of the cultures. 40°C is par for the course. Make sure you taste it regularly and once it's hit your threshold get it sparged and boiling.


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## checkers (11/10/16)

It is in the fermenter, I was planing on letting it do its thing for 2 days then lower temp to 18c and pitch a pack of US-05. Let that ferment out then ad mangoes for a week and bottle?

Any harm in this method?


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## damoninja (11/10/16)

checkers said:


> It is in the fermenter, I was planing on letting it do its thing for 2 days then lower temp to 18c and pitch a pack of US-05. Let that ferment out then ad mangoes for a week and bottle?
> 
> Any harm in this method?


Given the bug used 2 days _should_ make it sour enough but I've had this strain take 3-4 days. Test the pH and have a taste after 2 days. 

In theory this ought to get down to pH ~3.2 in 24 hours before it conks out. 

If you taste it at say pH 3.4 and that's sour enough if you want to stop it souring further you should chill and pitch ASAP but ~3.2 should be good it's quite sour. 

Are you planning on pasteurising the fruit in any way or just using the flesh from under the skin?


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## TheWiggman (11/10/16)

Ahh ok. Well I'm not a guru in sours but I think there is a bit of confusion with your method. There are 2 approaches to sours -

Traditional way. Allow ferment to largely complete then add lacto/brett/pedio to do its thing over a period of weeks to years. And it WILL takes weeks in some cases to show signs of life.
Rapid souring. Immediately following mash the culture is added and the temp held at 40°C to allow the bugs to work quickly. Once the right degree of sourness is achieved, mash out and boil. This stops the wild yeast action and kills it, but the sour flavour will carry over into the ferment.
You seem to have mixed the two up and are trying to do a rapid sour in the fermenter. Unfortunately you're probably going to end up with a mouth-puckeringly sour beer that will, as JDW says, be off-putting. Because the wort conditions don't favour typical beer yeasts adding a yeast now will likely yield poor results. And because the lacto is already in there, it will keep working away despite the yeast.
Chalk this one up as a learning experience and probably move that fermenter away from the brewery before it infects the place.


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## damoninja (11/10/16)

TheWiggman said:


> Ahh ok. Well I'm not a guru in sours but I think there is a bit of confusion with your method. There are 2 approaches to sours -
> 
> Traditional way. Allow ferment to largely complete then add lacto/brett/pedio to do its thing over a period of weeks to years. And it WILL takes weeks in some cases to show signs of life.
> Rapid souring. Immediately following mash the culture is added and the temp held at 40°C to allow the bugs to work quickly. Once the right degree of sourness is achieved, mash out and boil. This stops the wild yeast action and kills it, but the sour flavour will carry over into the ferment.
> ...


I've done exactly what he's done several times with different lacto strains, neither of the beers I brewed were mouth puckering, depending on the strain used it'll stop at 3.4 or 3.2, sometimes as low as 3.1 which is usually pretty tart. It won't keep just going and going, it'll conk out in a few days and certainly won't keep going once yeast start going at it. 

I've mentioned in other threads though - pH does not _always_ indicate how sour it will taste, the relative sourness depends on the recipe. 

Lacto (this one) while fairly acid resistant is fairly fragile you can eradicate it from the brewery fairly easily with some boiling water, sodium percarbonate, starsan and finally it won't take to beers with basically any IBUs. If you had brett in here I'd say forget about it 

If you are concerned about contamination in your fermenters just dedicate this fermenter to lacto / sours. 

Looking forward to see what he reports back


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## damoninja (11/10/16)

TheWiggman said:


> a mouth-puckeringly sour beer that will, as JDW says, be off-putting.


If this does happen - blend.


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## TheWiggman (11/10/16)

Interesting. All my reading on the topic indicates to add any funk after the ferment so as not to affect yeast health and that lacto will continue to increase acidity over extended periods of time (years).
Also keen on hearing the results.


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## damoninja (11/10/16)

TheWiggman said:


> Interesting. All my reading on the topic indicates to add any funk after the ferment so as not to affect yeast health and that lacto will continue to increase acidity over extended periods of time (years).
> Also keen on hearing the results.


Usually when people talk about funk and sour, they're two different things. Funk is usually your bretty / funky yeasts, sour is just that, sour. 

A kettle sour like this is really soured to the max that the bacteria can handle, you're talking a huge gain in acidity for an extremely small amount of sugars (like 1 gravity point!). For your traditional sour of mixed bugs yeah lacto/ pedio will continue souring slowly for months, as will brett keep funkin it up. They take so much longer because of the environment, alcohol, dropped pH, less sugars so on. 

The mixed cultures are where this is at, while a fast sour like this will make a pleasant sour beer it won't often make a rich complex sour like these mixed cultures can.


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## checkers (11/10/16)

Thanks everyone for your advice! Given me a lot to think about! I'll let you all know how it's getting along when I get home from work thisarvo.


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## checkers (11/10/16)

PH is now 4.1 so dropped 7 in 24h
There is a dead set white foam on top of the wort and I can hear it foaming is this usual?
This it the only pic I can get without removing the clingwrap.


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## damoninja (11/10/16)

4.1 ain't bad far cry from what it should reach, but all things going well will be OK in another 24hr or so.



checkers said:


> There is a dead set white foam on top of the wort and I can hear it foaming is this usual?


Very thin white foam normal, notable though... maybe yeast. 

Sound usually means CO2 from yeast fermentation... check your gravity, if it's dropped you may have yeast.........

Is that glad wrap being pressed out by pressure?


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## checkers (11/10/16)

Yep glad wrap has risen. I'll check gravity in the morning and see what is happening. I've never actually heard and seen bubbling in a fermenter though. Yes it is very thin white layer of bubbles..


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## checkers (11/10/16)

Though when I tried to purge the headspace with a keg that had just blown a couple of drops did blow in I must admit. 
This thing is a comedy of errors.


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## pvan340 (12/10/16)

Keep at it! First time brewing sours is a nerve wracking experience. I was tasting mine every 24 hours during the souring process, my thoughts going "Is it actually tasting good? Can I smell bile? Is this Parmesan cheese I've brewed?" But it turned out well for a first time, if it tastes ok after souring, it will probably become a decent beer.


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## checkers (12/10/16)

Yep so the gravity has dropped to 1.033 from 1.045. 
PH seems to have risen .1 to 4.2 so no more drop in ph. I think this might be one for the veggie patch. If anyone has any ideas how to salvage it before I tip it speak up ;-)


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## damoninja (12/10/16)

See how it goes, might be OK. Not going to get any more sour though...... 

With the gravity drop it signals infection likely a wild yeast but who knows it could be good (probably shit )

Ride it out a few days and see how it tastes when it's done. Probably shit but who knows. 

Lesson from this one is sanitation - and I mean serious sanitation... 10 times better than you'd do for a clean wort. Before I quick sour in the fermenter I even hit it with sodium percarbonate, rinse with boiling water a few times then hit it with FRESH starsan...

Yeast can survive a hit from starsan alone, unlikely but in theory what you could have is yeast from a prior brew haha


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## huez (12/10/16)

Taste it before you dump it, you've come this far, you may as well see it though. I was under the impression you get a slight drop in gravity with just the lacto and then the yeast finishes it off. I've only done a couple of berliners and thats how its happened for me, and what i was told would happen. 4.1pH is high but thrown some fruit in there, raspberries well get you close to 3.6pH. I've done one with passionfruit that turned out pretty good


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## checkers (12/10/16)

Yeah cool it didn't taste offensive... could I lower the ph a bit with 88% lactic acid from the bottle you think?


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## huez (12/10/16)

Very one dimensional flavour, i wouldn't, i'd personally go the fruit route. Raspberries and blackberries or raspberries and blueberries are good options.


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## checkers (12/10/16)

I was planning on going mango you think that would work?


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## damoninja (12/10/16)

Let it ferment out see what you have and reassess, if fruiting a beer isn't cheap so see what you have before committing


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## checkers (12/10/16)

Thanks bud. Set ferm fridge to 18c and pitched a pack of us-05. See how we go.

I've gotten really excited with everything I've learned from this thread so decided to try and kettle sour a beer to boil Friday arvo. I'll let you all know if I've won or lost after all your help and input on Friday!!


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## checkers (15/10/16)

the kettle sour worked!!

Thanks all once again for all your help!

FYI the first beer I stuffed up has finished fermenting and doesn't taste rancid so I'm going to throw mangoes in it and see what happens


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