# Using The Fresh Yeast Rich Krausen To Start A New Batch



## Pumpy (11/10/09)

I did not have enough yeast for two batches so I started one and two days later, skimmed off some of the krasen ,to add to the next batch 

It was firing in no time .

Saves making a starter 

Is there any disadvantages to this process?

Pumpy


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## /// (11/10/09)

Did you take the first skim? Standard UK practice, albeit the first skim has trub/proteins/other stuff and is know as known as 'the dirty skim'. THis usually gets chucked, with sucessive skims the ones to take (but no major bigger if you took the first lot...)

Mate, seems all you need is a beer engine and your living the real ale brewers life up their!

Scotty


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## Pumpy (11/10/09)

/// said:


> Did you take the first skim? Standard UK practice, albeit the first skim has trub/proteins/other stuff and is know as known as 'the dirty skim'. THis usually gets chucked, with sucessive skims the ones to take (but no major bigger if you took the first lot...)
> 
> Mate, seems all you need is a beer engine and your living the real ale brewers life up their!
> 
> Scotty




Well there you go there is my first mistake , I did add the Dirty skim 

Thanks for that Scotty

Pumpy


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## buttersd70 (11/10/09)

/// said:


> Did you take the first skim? Standard UK practice, albeit the first skim has trub/proteins/other stuff and is know as known as 'the dirty skim'. THis usually gets chucked, with sucessive skims the ones to take (but no major bigger if you took the first lot...)
> 
> Mate, seems all you need is a beer engine and your living the real ale brewers life up their!
> 
> Scotty



As scotty says, standard practice in commercial UK breweries is to discard the first skim....

In practice, on a HB level, what I've found is that as the crap tends to congregate around the edges near the fermenter wall, and due to the skimming being done by hand, in a smaller vessel than commercial practice, you can be much more selective in what you take than they would be on a larger scale; so it's no real issue at all doing the skim from the first formation, imo. I usually skim from the centre outwards, and stop about 3/4 of an inch before hitting the scum ring. 

Some texts (such as Brewing Science and Practice), say that the first skim is possibly likely to be less flocculant in subsequent batches; however, I've never found that to be the case, myself, and have never had any issues getting perfectly clear beer with minimal effort.

The advantages imo far outweigh the possible disadvantages.....the yeast fires in no time, even with minimal pitching rates. It attenuates fully in no time flat....if I have a bitter in the low 1040's that takes more than 4 days, I'm surprised. It's easy to get the yeast; it's easy to be selective about what part of the krausen you take; even if you do get some trub etc mixed in, it's a hell of a lot less than what you'd get from harvesting the yeast from the bottom; you can pitch another batch in a new fermenter, using the same yeast, whilst still fermenting the first, if you choose to do so.

I've been top skimming all my English yeasts for ages. Best thing since sliced bread imo.

If you use a pitching calculator (MrMalty), just move the 'non yeast solids' (or whatever it's called) slider all the way down.

The main disadvantage is that I can blow a keg within 14 days of pitching the yeast. :blink:


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## Screwtop (11/10/09)

buttersd70 said:


> I've been top skimming all my English yeasts for ages. Best thing since sliced bread imo.




What do you use to skim Butters? I have tried skimming a couple of times without great success, used a cup and took some of the top beer also, next attempt I used a sanitised plastic seive.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## buttersd70 (11/10/09)

Screwtop said:


> What do you use to skim Butters? I have tried skimming a couple of times without great success, used a cup and took some of the top beer also, next attempt I used a sanitised plastic seive.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Screwy


I use a sanatised soup ladle, and skim into a sanatised jug...I try to leave as much of the green beer as I can, and just get the yeast. I then add a bit of cooled boiled water to the jug to thin it down, and bottle it. Let it settle, then pour off the excess liquid, and replace it with fresh.

The other day I sanatised a large spoon instead of the usual ladle, cos I wasn't paying attention....it was much harder to use.  

edit: piccies.


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## Pumpy (11/10/09)

So butters should we be getting rid of the 'Dirty skim' on all our brews ?

Pumpy :unsure:


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## manticle (11/10/09)

I've done it once (top cropping). I keep meaning to get more into it.

Didn't know anything about dirty skim but I stored the yeast for a few weeks and it fired up and fermented out no trouble. 
I also used a sanitised soup ladle and simply poured it through a sanitised funnel into a sanitised longneck. Everything was sanitised with sanitiser and was quite sanitary.


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## Thirsty Boy (11/10/09)

There is nothing "wrong" with the dirty skim... its just all mixed in with coldbreak and hop resins etc etc. Stuff that will eventually stick to the sides and/or fall to the bottom. No biggie.

The practice of discarding first skim and then top cropping re-pitching yeast - avoids the scunge, avoids any issues with cropping super early yeast that is mutated for lower floculation or might be a different faster starting strain - and is so damn good and successful, that it is the reason why a lot of traditional brewers in the UK are able to re-pitch their yeast hundreds or thousands of times without horrific drift in yeast characteristics. This yeast is damn near super yeast and is basically the best start your next fermentation could get.

You are pushing it re-pitching a yeast collection from the bottom more than a few times, and even breweries that acid wash, usually only do it 8-10 times... with a good top cropping regimen you can keep it up pretty much forever


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## buttersd70 (11/10/09)

What TB said. The break, resins, etc, will tend to stick to the sides...which is why I avoid the sides, and don't go too close. I used to discard first skim...but can't be ar$ed anymore. My thought is, the alternative is collecting from the bottom, which is so packed with this stuff, that the comparatively tiny amount you get in the top isn't worth losing any sleep over.

As to how many times you can use it....well, I haven't counted. But I use 1469 in probably 75% of my beers. I bought it when it was first released, and I've only just a couple of weeks ago stepped up a fresh slant for the first time. Each crop usually gives enough yeast for several batches, so it's availability increases exponentialy....I have in the past, had such a surplus that I've given it away, cos it's more than I can use. I tend to only reuse probably 4 times each, then discard, not cos I need to, but because I have so much, I don't have any need to push further.....if you think about it, first pitch gives enough to pitch 3 more batches....each of these gives enough for 3 more batches....and so on. That's a hell of a lot of yeast by the time you pitch each one 3 or 4 times.


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## Bribie G (11/10/09)

I've got a batch fermenting on Proculture Wood Ale and it still has a huge krausen, but I won't be able to brew till Monday and pitch on Tuesday. Would it be feasable to skim today and culture that up with some LDME in a 1L Schott bottle and keep it around 17 degrees in the same location as the 'parent' beer and pitch that on Tuesday? Or is it too much double handling and risk of infection? This Wood Ale is amazing and I want to get another batch of Landlord out quick smart.

Is that your naughty chair in the background, Butters?


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## buttersd70 (11/10/09)

BribieG said:


> I've got a batch fermenting on Proculture Wood Ale and it still has a huge krausen, but I won't be able to brew till Monday and pitch on Tuesday. Would it be feasable to skim today and culture that up with some LDME in a 1L Schott bottle and keep it around 17 degrees in the same location as the 'parent' beer and pitch that on Tuesday? Or is it too much double handling and risk of infection? This Wood Ale is amazing and I want to get another batch of Landlord out quick smart.
> 
> Is that your naughty chair in the background, Butters?



Yes, that's the chair I drain cubes on....it's a magical chair that lets all the nasty plasticisers escape out of the cube before use. h34r: 

I wouldn't bother making up a starter for such a short wait....if you skim, you should be able to get enough yeast off the top to _directly _pitch at least 2 batches. I'd just skim it into a jug, then add just enough cooled boiled water to get a pouring consistency, then bottle it in a loosly capped pet and pop it in the fridge. Then when it's time to pitch, take it out of the fridge, pour off the excess liquid, add just enough water again to get a thick but pourable consistancy, and pitch it. I usually use around quarter of a cup or so, give or take.....as you can see in the piccie, I got about one and a half cups on a single skim.....


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## Screwtop (11/10/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Yes, that's the chair I drain cubes on....it's a magical chair that lets all the nasty plasticisers escape out of the cube before use. h34r:
> 
> I wouldn't bother making up a starter for such a short wait....if you skim, you should be able to get enough yeast off the top to _directly _pitch at least 2 batches. I'd just skim it into a jug, then add just enough cooled boiled water to get a pouring consistency, then bottle it in a loosly capped pet and pop it in the fridge. Then when it's time to pitch, take it out of the fridge, pour off the excess liquid, add just enough water again to get a thick but pourable consistancy, and pitch it. I usually use around quarter of a cup or so, give or take.....as you can see in the piccie, I got about one and a half cups on a single skim.....




Right, thats my next project..................well...............one of 30 or so. Hate having a break in brewing the must-do and to-do lists just get longer.

Cheers,

Screwy


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## arogers (11/10/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> You are pushing it re-pitching a yeast collection from the bottom more than a few times, and even breweries that acid wash, usually only do it 8-10 times... with a good top cropping regimen you can keep it up pretty much forever



Hi TB, can you please elaborate on why using the trub will only work for a few times: is it mutation or something else?


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## manticle (11/10/09)

If I'm not mistaken, it's because trub contains a lot of dead or otherwise unhealthy cells whereas krausen will contain loads of healthy ones.


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## arogers (11/10/09)

Sweet... Good to know.


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## RdeVjun (27/10/09)

I'll just relate my own recent experiences with top cropping- just brilliant they have been and I'd recommend the process as a simple and convenient means to keep a strain in production and a lot less hassle, plus the actual results in terms of fermentation have been nothing short of astounding. 
Direct pitching from one fermenter to another is as simple as it gets and that's what I've been doing, obviously harvesting and storing it is another layer of complexity but no real biggie if you've ever mucked with starters.
I've been using 1469 exclusively of late and it isn't easy to source, so keeping it in production has meant ensuring I have some yeastcake in the fridge, with starters rolling though regularly as well and a fair bit of preparation etc. I usually knock out two or three smaller batches a week (mostly testing) and for the last few I've been able to just top crop from one batch to the next, and this is where the process has really simplified the yeast ranching aspect for me.
It also seems that this method is one of the quickest ways to inocculate a wort and get fresh batches kicked off and fermenting at a full head of steam in next to no time. All of them I have done now have been just a half a cup or so of day 3 or 4 first crop transferred directly from one fermenter to the next fresh one. They've all developed a full coverage of krausen within 12 to 24 hours, with a drop in SG of around 10- 15 points in that time too, so it really takes off quite rapidly and as noted earlier, develops terminal gravity in around four or five days. So for quick turnaround, it really can speed things up too, although other yeasts might struggle to match the West Yorkshire strain's performance. (BTW, I'll just leave it in primary for at least another week, more often two and then just rack on to priming sugar and bottle, WY clears brilliantly of its own accord, sometime I'll gelatine but only when I can be arsed.)
The batches that have been top crop harvested recover within hours, back to full coverage fairly smartly, although I've not been taking all that much, just enough to start a fresh batch. And when I see a full head of krausen in the fresh one show up just overnight, I know things are just humming along in both.
So, to anyone thinking of giving it a try, by all means do have a chop at it and I don't think you'll be disappointed! 
Many thanks you guys as well for all the info and background on the process, it has really helped me with this immensely. :beerbang:


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## bigbird (27/10/09)

sooo, does this seem pheasable? 

I've got some S-05 at day 4 of primary at the moment. If I skim, let it settle, drain, then top up with cooled boiled water, store in the fridge and repitch within a week or two.... will that be OK?

Will I need to make a starter to "wake" it up again or will it be OK to directly pitch once it has warmed up?


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## buttersd70 (27/10/09)

bigbird said:


> sooo, does this seem pheasable?
> 
> I've got some S-05 at day 4 of primary at the moment. If I skim, let it settle, drain, then top up with cooled boiled water, store in the fridge and repitch within a week or two.... will that be OK?
> Sounds fine
> ...


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## dr K (27/10/09)

A word of warning, before you get all misty eyed about top cropping yeasts, there just are not that many left, 1469 certainly is but many of the traditional english ale yeasts, due to those ridiculous inverted tin-man fermentors they use these days, have not only lost their heart but their top cropping ability. 
So, a true top cropper (say 1469) will produce excellent but any old ale yeast, say US05 or even Ringwood will not, certainly not over a number of fermentations as the true top croppers will be true to style, the untrue will, by selection, become rapidly crap. If you do have a true top cropper keep it young and chipper and lock it with a zipper.

K


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## troopa (27/10/09)

So dr.K... your saying that US-05 would mutate faster if skimmed compared to take it from the cake.. Or mutate just as quickly?

Tom


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## dr K (27/10/09)

Troopa said:


> So dr.K... your saying that US-05 would mutate faster if skimmed compared to take it from the cake.. Or mutate just as quickly?
> 
> Tom



what i am saying is that you need to be carefull where and when you select your yeast for the next batch. the simple method, and the method that most modern yeasts hane grown accustomed to is from the bottom, after completion of fermentation, or if you will primary fermentation. modern inverted tin-man fermentors make this easy.
if for example you were to rack your beer off at 70% completion or higher , say for a "secondary" if you will, and collect the very clean, non tubby yeast from there what you would be doing over a number of generations is selecting the late flocculating cells and indeed producing a very differently behaved yeast. precisely the same thing happens if you succesively top crop yeasts that are not true top croppers except of course you are favouring the early flocculators.
If i were using 1469 i would top crop (if i got the right window), most others i would not.

K


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## Kai (27/10/09)

Dr K raises a very good point, top croppers are the exception rather than the norm for ale yeasts these days. US-05/001/1056 is the primo example of this, it's a yeast perfect for fermentation in and bottom-cropping from cylindroconical fermenters; a perfect workhorse and an utterly boring characterless yeast. Great for hops though!

But, there are still a fair few top cropping cultures out there. A quick flick through wyeast and whitelabs sites says the following are genuine top croppers:

WY1007 German Ale
WY1010 American Wheat
WY1318 London Ale III
WY2565 Kolsch
WY3068 Weihenstephan Weizen
WY3638 Bavarian Wheat
WY3787 Trappist High Gravity
WY3944 Belgian Witbier

WLP022 Essex Ale
WLP038 Manchester Ale
WLP039 Nottingham Ale

and this is just from skimming their yeast strain information and pulling out the ones that specifically mention top cropping, I'd speculate, especially after comparing the two sites, that they have a lot more actual top-croppable yeast strains for sale than the ones I have listed. Looks like a pretty good selection to me! Unless you like lagers, of course.


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## bigbird (27/10/09)

Dang...just top cropped it before reading the further posts. I will ty it and see how it goes on Sunday, compared to previous ones I have harvested from the bottom, of which a couple have been poor attenuators. I dont plan on repeating the process too many times. As a backup I still have a small vial of 1056 that I split before pitching in the fridge..

Thanks for the replies. This site rocks!


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## /// (27/10/09)

Kai said:


> Dr K raises a very good point, top croppers are the exception rather than the norm for ale yeasts these days. US-05/001/1056 is the primo example of this, it's a yeast perfect for fermentation in and bottom-cropping from cylindroconical fermenters; a perfect workhorse and an utterly boring characterless yeast. Great for hops though!
> 
> But, there are still a fair few top cropping cultures out there.



Ahh mate, no truer words have been spoken. The US05 cone-to-cone is a doer, but pretty low on the esters and other nice profile thingo's. 

You did forget;

* Ringwood 1187 - huge billowing head
* 1335 - Brit Ale 2 - more billowing head
* 1332 - Northwest Ale - lesser know but a head so huge it once crawled out of my fermenter and pounced on me as I opened the door!

Scotty


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## arogers (27/10/09)

so a really big krausen is needed to make top cropping viable. i get that with WLP001 straight up however it seems to diminish repitching with slurry collected from the bottom after racking post-primary.

what exactly are we looking for when we identify a "top cropper"? cheers


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## dr K (27/10/09)

> But, there are still a fair few top cropping cultures out there.



Yes there are, and WLP022 is a perfect (almost too so) example. The really odd one is WLP1010, which whilst I have not used it is possibly the Widmer strain, (the Wyeast strain which I have used escapes my memory) which may have come from Dusseldorf..as may have WLP1007, but via very differnt paths and very different uses over many generations. The Widmer forms an ocean of islands, one cannot help but think of Donne when harvesting.
I guess the intent of my post was that whilst top cropping is romantic, just cause an ale yeast is an ale yeast it does not follow that it is a top cropper.

K


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## Kai (27/10/09)

dr K said:


> Yes there are, and WLP022 is a perfect (almost too so) example. The really odd one is WLP1010, which whilst I have not used it is possibly the Widmer strain, (the Wyeast strain which I have used escapes my memory) which may have come from Dusseldorf..as may have WLP1007, but via very differnt paths and very different uses over many generations. The Widmer forms an ocean of islands, one cannot help but think of Donne when harvesting.
> I guess the intent of my post was that whilst top cropping is romantic, just cause an ale yeast is an ale yeast it does not follow that it is a top cropper.
> 
> K



Absolutely... In my post I was going to dip my toe into the whole "top fermenting" vs "bottom fermenting" differentiation but decided it wasn't worth the bother.

And yes, in my opinion top-cropping is still decidedly romantic 

Scotty, I'm glad you mentioned 1332 as I used it a few years ago, loved what it did but could have sworn it produced a very heavy krauesen. I was surprised not to see it on wyeast's list of top croppers.

regulator, a good top cropping yeast is one where the krausen stays on the top of the ferment once fermentation is complete. It essentially gets stuck there through accumulated CO2 from the ferment binding up big puffy luscious clouds of yeast and trapping them on top.


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## arogers (27/10/09)

are you talking about something like this: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/krausen-not-falling-32033/

they seems to call it "braun hefe" or "brown yeast". i was worried after it happened to my most recent brew which i had pitched with us-05 (actually ross's american ale yeast). it was also the first brew that i used 5.2 on and all i can put it down to is the the better ph in my mash helped drop a lot more proteins etc out of the wort during the boil. i guess this caused it to gum-up and stay on top of the beer, it looked exactly like the pic in the link above.


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## dr K (27/10/09)

a long call to my prodigal daughter punctuated my post
a big krausen (a german word describing the cabbage like flowering of a fermenting beer or an Erazorhead-like hairstyle) and often seen in lagers, does not denote a top cropping yeast.
In the simplest of terms a (top) top-cropping yeast is one were, if you get the right window, you can easily harvest "the whole" yeast direct from the top. If you open ferment (I guess a bit of a if not requirement but a helpfull aid to top croppers) you will know when...in a 25litre drum homebrew sense it is after the initial flush of krausen, during which time most of the crappy sticky trub and hop matter conveniently sticks to the wall, but before it starts to break up and descend.

K


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## arogers (27/10/09)

ok, so its not krausen we are looking to skim but the actual yeast "scum". sweet.


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## Kai (28/10/09)

dr K said:


> In the simplest of terms a (top) top-cropping yeast is one were, if you get the right window, you can easily harvest "the whole" yeast direct from the top. If you open ferment (I guess a bit of a if not requirement but a helpfull aid to top croppers) you will know when...in a 25litre drum homebrew sense it is after the initial flush of krausen, during which time most of the crappy sticky trub and hop matter conveniently sticks to the wall, but before it starts to break up and descend.
> 
> K



Yes, the yeast that parties at the top after everyone else has left early or passed out on the bottom. I'd go with that as a good definition.


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## /// (28/10/09)

Good ale yeast should have a rough skin (aka Farrah Fawcitt bits) where the co2 in solution gets caught in those bits and takes the good yeast to the top. Lager yeast for comparison, has a smooth skin, hence falling to the bottom. 

Apart from that, what Kai said!

Scotty


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## dr K (28/10/09)

> Yes, the yeast that parties at the top after everyone else has left early or passed out on the bottom. I'd go with that as a good definition.



there is something about that screams .."kurtz"... and makes so much more sense than byron's spume or donne's clods.

K


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## /// (28/10/09)

Or Farrahs' bits ...


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## kabooby (28/10/09)

I remember a Brewing network episode with Chris White where he mentioned that WLP001 was a top cropping yeast. He did also mention that not all ale strains are true top cropping yeast, but I am pretty sure WLP001 was.

Kabooby


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## dr K (28/10/09)

kabooby said:


> I remember a Brewing network episode with Chris White where he mentioned that WLP001 was a top cropping yeast. He did also mention that not all ale strains are true top cropping yeast, but I am pretty sure WLP001 was.
> 
> Kabooby


 now whilst i do not for even a second doubt the veracity of your memory, as indeed, it has been mentioned earlier an ale yeast is not by definition a top cropper, i must, even just to ebb the disinformation flow that occours from forums and blogs, point out that WLP001/1056/US05 is NOT a top cropper. One of the reasons that WLP001/1056/US05 is the biggest selling yeast in the world is that is NOT a top crpper, the yeast stays in suspension (rather like a "true" lager yeast) and is not all that flocculent, that is of course, until you chill it..voila...G2B...

K


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## manticle (28/10/09)

Question from someone who doesn't pretend to know nor who feels he has the expertise to disagree with many others who've posted here but: in order to reculture yeast, you essentially need some live cells. These may be found at the bottom of a bottle or the bottom of a fermenter so why not at the top of the brew? What distinguishes a true top cropper from a non true one in terms of being able to reculture?


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## buttersd70 (28/10/09)

manticle said:


> What distinguishes a true top cropper from a non true one in terms of being able to reculture?



As was mentioned previously, the best sign is a yeast where the yeast sits on top, even after terminal gravity is reached.....as an example, take uso5, and 1469. Talking in _general _terms (and there are always the odd-brews-out), us05 will have a big healthy head, but when it reaches FG (or very shortly thereafter), this will sink down and drop out. 1469, on the other hand, will hold it's big yeasty head in place, even after FG is reached, and the only thing that can dislodge it is to either crop it off, or crash chill it and _force _it to drop through. 

I normally finish off my brews in a timely fashion.....Muckey, on the other hand, (sorry for calling you out on this, mate, but it illustrates a point) is a lazy bugger, and will often just leave his brews to sit, long beyond the time required to reach terminal gravity. (long in a relative sense, like a week longer than minimum).....when using 1469 (or to a lesser extent 1187), even after extended time in the fermenter, the big head of yeast is still there, available to crop.


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## arogers (28/10/09)

My most recent fermentation with US-05 looked just like this. Stayed there like that for days after FG was achieved so I just racked from underneath.

EDIT: Well I assume it is US-05, according to Ross's website his "American Ale Yeast" is 1056 or US-05.


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## Nick JD (29/10/09)

I've never top cropped, but I have often "bottom cropped" from an active fermenter.

I just give the fermenter a bit of a swirl and a jiggle - and then pour a cup 'o sludge from the tap.

Whack this cup into the other fermenter. Works a treat and there's no opening the lid.


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## bullsneck (8/3/10)

Anyone ever top cropped using 1272 (American Ale II)? I know it similar to 1056, but according to Wyeast, it is more flocculent. Does that make it better for top cropping?


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## Pete2501 (8/3/10)

I like it. I just read this post and will have to give this a go for sure.


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## phinnsfotos (8/3/10)

Pete2501 said:


> I like it. I just read this post and will have to give this a go for sure.


I was just thinking the same thing. Except I've got a wheat beer yeast (WB-06) going right now and my LHBS guy said not to re-pitch wheat yeasts. Something about loosing out on esters. Not to mention I'll have two wheaties conditioning and it's probably time for something else.


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## Pete2501 (8/3/10)

Sounds like a yeast health thing to me. Esters are made when yeast eats sugars no?

Top cropping after reading this post seems to be the best way to farm healthy yeast.

edit: spelking


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## manticle (8/3/10)

I've top cropped 3068 before. Yet to use it again but I have the slurry in my brew fridge. I'd be surprised if the above were the case.


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## avaneyk (8/3/10)

manticle said:


> I've top cropped 3068 before. Yet to use it again but I have the slurry in my brew fridge. I'd be surprised if the above were the case.



Hi Manticle - when you top cropped the 3068 did you just store it under water or did you make a starter with it and store that. Also, any recommendations about the best time to crop it. I've got a batch of dunkel weizen fermenting with 3068 that I put down on Saturday - first time using a liquid yeast so I pitched straight from the pack (to see how it goes before going to the effort of cultivating it). But after seeing this thread I'm thinking about skimming it to store some of this yeast for later.

Cheers,
Andrew


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## manticle (8/3/10)

When I top crop I store in sanitised longnecks and fill about halfway with cooled boiled water. Sealed and in the fridge till ready to use then out of the fridge to warm to room temperature and make a starter with some DME. The great thing about top cropping is that the yeast is very fresh and healthy. I don't want to exhaust it by making it 2nd gen and feeding it malt just to store it (also using water and forgetting is way easier than buggering around with a starter only to have to make another starter later).

Unless I need to step up or have a very high gravity wort, I normally pitch my whole starter as soon as krausen appears. The ones I've made from top cropped yeast have always kicked off like a crazy scuba diver.

Best time to top crop is high krausen - I've read you should avoid the scungy bits and go for the white creamy stuff - myself I don't get too concerned - just scoop out as much as I need. However I do get concerned about sanitation - your cropping utensil should be well cleaned and sanitised as should your storing vessel and plastic funnel (that and pouring the boiled water are best things for getting the yeast in the longneck).

Not saying the above is the only way or even the best way - just the way I've done it several times and it's worked very well for me.

I'm keeping the 3068 for a planned dunkelweizen.


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## benno1973 (8/3/10)

manticle said:


> I've top cropped 3068 before. Yet to use it again but I have the slurry in my brew fridge. I'd be surprised if the above were the case.



Maybe the LHBS guy was referring to pitching a new brew straight onto the yeast cake of the old brew? Too much yeast and you'd lose out on esters, but if you just top crop I'm sure it would be fine,


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## Pete2501 (8/3/10)

Kaiser Soze said:


> Maybe the LHBS guy was referring to pitching a new brew straight onto the yeast cake of the old brew? Too much yeast and you'd lose out on esters, but if you just top crop I'm sure it would be fine,



Some people suggest under pitching to achieve flavour. <_<


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## manticle (8/3/10)

Pete2501 said:


> Some people suggest under pitching to achieve flavour.




I don't subscribe to that. I think treat a wheat as I'd treat any other brew except ferment slightly cooler (around 17) and let the yeast do its thing. I'm no expert on weizens, having only done one AG wheat and a couple of extract wheats before that but what I've read about traditional German methods suggests the same.


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## benno1973 (8/3/10)

I'd never suggest underpitching, but overpitching can be just as bad. Correct pitching rates (as the name would imply) would be the 'correct' option.


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## manticle (8/3/10)

Agreed. Pitch the right amount not the wrong amount.


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## Effect (8/3/10)

In BLAM the author talks with several microbrewers about pitching rates. A lot of them choose to underpitch...


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## manticle (8/3/10)

Are they the brewers who make the original brews that the other brewers base their beers on (trappists) or the 'let's throw everything we have at a brew' brewers inspired by them?

My copy of BLAM is currently on loan so I can't see for myself.


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## bullsneck (8/3/10)

bullsneck said:


> Anyone ever top cropped using 1272 (American Ale II)? I know it similar to 1056, but according to Wyeast, it is more flocculent. Does that make it better for top cropping?



bump


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## goomboogo (8/3/10)

Phillip said:


> In BLAM the author talks with several microbrewers about pitching rates. A lot of them choose to underpitch...



A lot of people talk about under-pitching when they really mean pitching on the low end of the acceptable range.


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## rendo (8/3/10)

anyone want to give me the short and dirty on what happens if you over pitch??



manticle said:


> Agreed. Pitch the right amount not the wrong amount.


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## simon.sillitoe (8/3/10)

rendo said:


> anyone want to give me the short and dirty on what happens if you over pitch??


I can't say much as to what happens to the beer, haven't gotten that far yet. But I assure you overpitching is "dirty". lol. 

Well... I dunno if it _actually_ counts as overpitching, but with my latest batch I decided to reuse yeast for the first time. Easiest method - straight onto the yeast cake of the previous batch. Within 8 hours krausen was spewing out the airlock. This is all at reasonable temperatures too (19C). For 3 days this continued...

In a way the system is self-regulating, as I estimate half of the yeast ended up outside the fermenter. 

US05 btw.

Next time I think I'll scoop away at least half of the yeast cake.


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## eamonnfoley (9/3/10)

Nick JD said:


> I've never top cropped, but I have often "bottom cropped" from an active fermenter.
> 
> I just give the fermenter a bit of a swirl and a jiggle - and then pour a cup 'o sludge from the tap.
> 
> Whack this cup into the other fermenter. Works a treat and there's no opening the lid.



Are you collecting yeast that has already flocced while yeast is still in suspension fermenting the beer out? Probably not the best practice because its not a representative sample - you could possibly end up with your repitch not reaching FG because you have selected the most flocculant cells in the population. Try and collect a good cross section of your yeast cake after it has settled out. Unless you are top cropping - that yeast is the best of the best!


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