# Biab Urns: Birko Vs Crown



## MarkBastard (1/2/10)

I am cashed up and ready to buy one of these urns but after reading heaps I still can't decide.

From what I can tell the pros and cons are as follows.

Crown:
* Pro: It has a concealed element
* Con: Need to modify the boil dry switch to achieve decent performance
* Con: Poorer boiling performance, even when modified to bypass the boil dry switch

Birko:
* Pro: It has better boiling performance
* Pro: No need to modify
* Con: Exposed element harder to clean / may require more care to not burn the bag.

Obviously if the Birko is only slightly better performance wise than the Crown, maybe the Crown is the better option, but I haven't really seen anything close to a side by side comparison. ie in the same room would a Crown take an hour to bring 30L of water to 100 degrees but the Birko would only take 45 minutes?

I'm tempted to go the Crown because it'd be easier for me to clean (this is important to me because I hate cleaning more than anything), and because I can get it from craftbrewer and not have to deal with catering supply companies (who have annoyed me thus far with their bullshit). But then again I read about the performance issues and picture myself waiting anxiously to hit temperatures thinking "which didn't I get a f**king Birko?".


----------



## Supra-Jim (1/2/10)

Can't help you on the side by side (i have 40L Crown and no issues with it at all), however could you improve the boiling performance of both units by insulating the walls? They are very thin and i think would lose a significant amount of heat (esp in cold melb enviroments, may less so up north).

Note: I use my for a HLT not BIAG witchcraft.

Cheers SJ


----------



## MarkBastard (1/2/10)

Supra-Jim said:


> Can't help you on the side by side (i have 40L Crown and no issues with it at all), however could you improve the boiling performance of both units by insulating the walls? They are very thin and i think would lose a significant amount of heat (esp in cold melb enviroments, may less so up north).
> 
> Note: I use my for a HLT not BIAG witchcraft.
> 
> Cheers SJ



Probably should have mentioned that, yes I would insulate either one upon purchase. In fact I already have a camping matt to use for that purpose.

EDIT: In a thread someone mentioned they have evap rates of 15% per hour for the crown when modified to bypass the boil-dry and when insulated as well I believe.

If anyone has a figure for the Birko that would be handy. People that have calibrated for use with Beersmith etc should have this information?


----------



## glaab (1/2/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> EDIT: In a thread someone mentioned they have evap rates of 15% per hour for the crown when modified to bypass the boil-dry and when insulated as well I believe.
> 
> If anyone has a figure for the Birko that would be handy. People that have calibrated for use with Beersmith etc should have this information?



you should find that in PistolPatchs BIAB survey if you can find it, 15% sounds a bit over the top.
both 2400W units would boil at the same rate I expect, there is a 3600W Birko. I have a Birko which seems good but havent used it much. Cheers


----------



## Bribie G (1/2/10)

The only disadvantage I can see with my Birko is indeed the cleaning of the element. It doesn't get stuff actually burned on, but it is a bit difficult to get into the nooks and crannies because there are wires going to the sensors that get in the way of any scrubbing pad. 





I'm going to give it a reno soon and try CLR for cleaning it back to new condition as the same time that I put in a 'proper' tap.

During a BIAB witchcraft h34r: session, burning the bag isn't an issue if you use passive lagging during the mash - e.g. my sleeping bag and my long suffering doonah


----------



## cozmocracker (1/2/10)

i have the crown urn, i am very happy with it. i have modified it (it was very simple, took 2 minutes if that) and it is very easy to clean. I am happy with its performance and i produce good beer with it, i have had comments that my biab beers are better than some peoples 3 vessel beers, thats more to do with the brewer than the equiptment though. time to pour myself a beer and pat myself on the back lol.


----------



## Bribie G (1/2/10)

cozmocracker said:


> i have the crown urn, i am very happy with it. i have modified it (it was very simple, took 2 minutes if that) and it is very easy to clean. I am happy with its performance and i produce good beer with it, i have had comments that my biab beers are better than some peoples 3 vessel beers, thats more to do with the brewer than the equiptment though. time to pour myself a beer and pat myself on the back lol.


Off topic slightly but the urn vs 3V thingo sort of misses the point that we are only discussing _wort production_, not the overall beer production process. As I've posted elsewhere you can make the finest of worts using a $5000 HERMY or RIMMY setup and then proceed to totally stuff it up with a poor choice of yeast, oxygenation, temperature control, etc etc. At the same time you can make a fine wort with a single vessel system and go on to turn it into a legendary beer depending on how you control the subsequent processes. 

On topic, on balance - especially here in Brisbane where catering suppliers are hard to track down for some reason - I'd certainly consider a modified Crownie if my current Birko ever failed for whatever reason, and knowing that I'm getting it from a rock solid supplier, CB.


----------



## MarkBastard (1/2/10)

glaab said:


> both 2400W units would boil at the same rate I expect



I've heard this is not the case as the Crown's element isn't exposed. I guess that means it's not directly heating the wort, but instead heating the bottom of the pot, which heats the wort. It appears you lose performance because of this. How much I'm not sure.


----------



## MarkBastard (1/2/10)

BribieG said:


> On topic, on balance - especially here in Brisbane where catering suppliers are hard to track down for some reason - I'd certainly consider a modified Crownie if my current Birko ever failed for whatever reason, and knowing that I'm getting it from a rock solid supplier, CB.



I called one in East Brisbane that had a Birko in stock, but it was the 15amp one. The dude said he could get the 10amp one in on Wednesday. He then said that'll be $330. I said "I called because your website said $250+GST", at which point he informed me I have to order through the website for that price. I'm very much edging towards the Crown/Craft Brewer option. I can pick up some cracked grain at the same time for my first AG 

But there IS some Birko suppliers in Brisbane bribie. I found two. The other one was in west end. The prices were slightly more than Sydney but a lot cheaper than buying from Sydney and getting it shipped here. LJStuart wanted $80 + GST to ship to Brisbane. That is highway robbery.


----------



## chappo1970 (1/2/10)

Mark I have the 40lt 2400w Crown and am very happy with it. You are welcome to come over to Chappo Manor and check it out for yourself and do whatever tests you want on it performance wise.

Chap Chap


----------



## MarkBastard (1/2/10)

Chappo said:


> Mark I have the 40lt 2400w Crown and am very happy with it. You are welcome to come over to Chappo Manor and check it out for yourself and do whatever tests you want on it performance wise.
> 
> Chap Chap



Gday Chap. Thanks for the offer but your word is good enough  

I think I'll be getting the crown.

Cheers.


----------



## chappo1970 (1/2/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Gday Chap. Thanks for the offer but your word is good enough
> 
> I think I'll be getting the crown.
> 
> Cheers.




No worries MB. For what it's worth the concealed element was what got me originally and still think it's a great feature of the Crown over the Birko.

Cheers

Chap Chap


----------



## pdilley (1/2/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> I am cashed up and ready to buy one of these urns but after reading heaps I still can't decide.
> 
> From what I can tell the pros and cons are as follows.
> 
> ...



I went Birko mate, and the con is incorrect. Its a piece of piss to clean. A non scratching pad from the supermarket and plain water with no soap or chemicals and it just falls off and cleans neat as new. One of the easiest pieces of brew gear I got.

I too thought and worried hard over the cleaning issue and its such the opposite I am glad I went with it.

EDIT: My element is different to BribieGs (newer?) Just two ovals side by side instead of a curl. Still no scrub just wipe with pad and water cleaning but thought it was worth mentioning. My allquip ship was close to $18/20 or so.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## MarkBastard (1/2/10)

Cheers brewer pete. I ended up getting a Crown from craftbrewer though. It was buying from a home brew store that tipped me over the edge. I didn't like the 'vibe' of the catering places I called.


----------



## Sully (1/2/10)

IIRC the Crown Urns at CBs have sealed elements now...


----------



## Bribie G (1/2/10)

Brewer Pete said:


> I went Birko mate, and the con is incorrect. Its a piece of piss to clean. A non scratching pad from the supermarket and plain water with no soap or chemicals and it just falls off and cleans neat as new. One of the easiest pieces of brew gear I got.
> 
> I too thought and worried hard over the cleaning issue and its such the opposite I am glad I went with it.
> 
> ...



Pete, I noted that on the piccies of the brew day that you posted the Birko had a number of quite different design features from mine, completely different handles and a new label on the side of the urn. So it looks like they have redesigned the heating element as well. Any chance of a photo?


----------



## whitegoose (1/2/10)

Spectacular timing - I've just started researching urns, and have now decided - I'm gonna pick up a crown, modify it, and get into the BIAB!!!! :super:


----------



## pdilley (1/2/10)

Micheal,

Birko is packed away with all brew gear in shed as I've prepped the house for inspection this Thr. I'll see about photos this weekend.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


----------



## GumbyOne (1/2/10)

I bought the birko to use as a HLT and it seems pretty good so far, gets up to strike temp in less than an hour and the thermostat is resonably acurate. The only reason I went for it over the crown was they were on special (around $250) at hotel agencies (and still may be, it was an ongoing special).


----------



## MarkBastard (1/2/10)

Sully said:


> IIRC the Crown Urns at CBs have sealed elements now...



What does this mean?


----------



## Sully (1/2/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> What does this mean?


Don't worry - wires crossed - 14 hour day in front of computer and not reading post fully... disregard


----------



## MarkBastard (5/3/10)

Any of you fellas have beer smith info for the crown urn handy?


----------



## MarkBastard (6/3/10)

Alright, in case anyone searches for this later on.

I ended up getting the Crown Urn because at the end of the day I wanted to give my hard earned to a home brew store and not some wanker from a hospitality supplies store.

When I first got it I did a test boil with water, I then did the modification where you bypass the boil-dry protection (posted elsewhere here and I can't recommend it to anyone unless they're electricians etc). I also got a really cheap camping mat. About $7. I took off the handles and took out the sightglass and cut the camping mat with a razor so that it fit around the urn perfectly, and used some old belts I had to secure the mat to the urn. I gave it another go and noticed that the urn constantly made a noise like it was working, where as before without bypassing the boil-dry it sort of cut in and out, even when it was only at 50 degrees or so with 20L of water in there. The boil dry protection seems badly designed to me and certainly isn't suitable for home brew application where you want the element to just be on when it should be.

So anyway, I did my first batch with it today and I must say this thing boils way better than my stove top could doing partials. I got a boil I was really happy with, anything more and I would think it was too vigorous if anything. Perfect boil IMO.

I uploaded a video to youtube if anyone wants to check out a video of it boiling.  note that I don't think the video was that great, it looks better in real life and especially without the hop sock in but it was an after thought to take a video.

Basically I couldn't be happier with this urn in its current state, it's the perfect BIAB single batch setup in my opinion. So easy.

I can also recommend the BIAB bags from gryphon brewing, and the hop sock from craftbrewer (http://www.craftbrewer.com/shop/details.asp?PID=946) as they are both perfectly matched to this urn.

Finally if you're are like I was, a partial stove top masher, I can highly recommend getting into all grain using BIAB and no chill. I found it a lot easier than stove top partials and in some ways even more than doing kits, although it obviously takes more time than kits.

I've also attached some pics to show how it went in case anyone is interested.




The urn complete with insulation and attached racking tube.



break material left at the bottom of the urn after racking.



cube containing wort. Used my knee to push it in to remove some of the dead space.



my old 19L Big W pot I used for partials comes in very handy to place the bag in and squeeze out excess wort, and then later on to put all your gear in as you no longer need it. Basically a nice stainless steel bucket that I recommend hanging on to to help with your brew day.


----------



## bullsneck (6/3/10)

The only problem I have with the Crown Urn is that the sight tube is starting to get murky, but I guess the Birko could have the same problem. Being such a thin tube, cleaning is problematic.

I am considering just removing the sight tube, either blocking up the hole or even putting a temperature gauge in its place.

Has anyone else had this problem and if so, how'd they solve it?

Thanks!


----------



## MarkBastard (6/3/10)

I must admit the sight tube seemed almost useless. I mean it gives you an indication but I dunno maybe it's too thin to be accurate or something?


----------



## RobB (11/3/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> View attachment 36202
> 
> The urn complete with insulation and attached racking tube.



Have you just forced the silicone hose over the tap there? I wasn't comfortable doing this with my Birko because the straight part at the bottom of the tap just didn't seem long enough. I had a spare ball valve, so I just bought a stainless bulkhead fitting from a boating store and replaced the original tap.


----------



## pmolou (12/3/10)

I know i've seen it before but i've been searching around and can't find references to what people use as a false bottom for the birko urns.. ie so the bag doesn't burn was going to get a 40l birko

any help would be great phil


----------



## MarkBastard (12/3/10)

Malty Cultural said:


> Have you just forced the silicone hose over the tap there? I wasn't comfortable doing this with my Birko because the straight part at the bottom of the tap just didn't seem long enough. I had a spare ball valve, so I just bought a stainless bulkhead fitting from a boating store and replaced the original tap.



Yeah I just squeezed it on. I was reasonably happy with how well it sat on the tap. I was just careful and ready to flick the tap off it the tube fell off.


----------



## big78sam (12/3/10)

Phil,

Some people just use a cake stand/rack. I don't do a mash out so don't need to worry about it but do a search for the word cake in the BIAB in an urn sticky thread and you'll find heaps of info.


----------



## gunbrew (12/3/10)

I bought a near new birko 40 litre urn off e-bay for $80, a real bargain.
It came with a stainless frame that sits inside to cover the element.
I have only made 2 all grain brews so far and the birko has been awesome.
Easily gets water to strike temp and to the boil.
Is easy to clean.
Never dreamed how easy BIAB could be when I started.
My main hassle was chilling the wort to pitching temp once I am done.
Went ok the 2nd time with my home made chiller, had it to 30 degrees in an hour then transferred to fermenter and into the fridge at 18 degrees.
No modifications were needed to start brewing, that's what attracted me to looking for a birko in the first place.
Cheers.


----------



## MarkBastard (12/3/10)

Bloody hell that's cheap!


----------



## big78sam (12/3/10)

That is cheap! I just paid 270 (including delivery) for a new one!


----------



## Yeldarb (12/3/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Finally if you're are like I was, a partial stove top masher, I can highly recommend getting into all grain using BIAB and no chill. I found it a lot easier than stove top partials and in some ways even more than doing kits, although it obviously takes more time than kits.



Top post :icon_chickcheers: 

Think I best get me an urn


----------



## BjornJ (12/3/10)

gunbrew said:


> I bought a near new birko 40 litre urn off e-bay for $80, a real bargain.
> It came with a stainless frame that sits inside to cover the element.
> I have only made 2 all grain brews so far and the birko has been awesome.
> Easily gets water to strike temp and to the boil.
> ...



That sounds awesome, I paid $270 for mine and had to pick it up  

Are you siphoning out the wort or using the tap?
I find using the tap I get lots of trub sucked out through the tap and into the fermenter..

thanks
Bjorn


----------



## MarkBastard (12/3/10)

BjornJ said:


> That sounds awesome, I paid $270 for mine and had to pick it up
> 
> Are you siphoning out the wort or using the tap?
> I find using the tap I get lots of trub sucked out through the tap and into the fermenter..
> ...



Are you using Whirfloc and whirlpooling?


----------



## bcp (12/3/10)

pmolou said:


> I know i've seen it before but i've been searching around and can't find references to what people use as a false bottom for the birko urns.. ie so the bag doesn't burn was going to get a 40l birko
> 
> any help would be great phil



I've been using a metal kitchen colander - like for draining spaghetti. Fits perfectly and works fine. When i can remember i attach a plastic coated wire to the handle to pull it out for the boil - and when i forget to attach it i just hook it out with my mash paddle (a little more tricky). It does slow the flow of the heat when it's in, so a cake rack might be my next try.


----------



## MarkBastard (12/3/10)

Do people with Crown urns do mash outs without lifting the bag?


----------



## big78sam (12/3/10)

I had a cheap ebay urn with a concealed element and did a mash out on my first AG attempt without lifting the bag. I burned holes in it. I'm not sure about a crown...


----------



## MarkBastard (12/3/10)

Would probably be the same, cheers.


----------



## gunbrew (12/3/10)

BjornJ said:


> That sounds awesome, I paid $270 for mine and had to pick it up
> 
> Are you siphoning out the wort or using the tap?
> I find using the tap I get lots of trub sucked out through the tap and into the fermenter..
> ...




Have just been using the tap.
Have been wirlpooling.
Forgot the wirfloc on my recent brew...
Used whole fresh hops off the bine that I grew in the backyard.
They were starting to block the tap and I just held my brewing spoon over the exit to stop that.


----------



## MarkBastard (12/3/10)

I use a hop sock, highly recommended.


----------



## Fantoman (12/3/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> Do people with Crown urns do mash outs without lifting the bag?



Yeah, I have done MO's without lifting the bag in a Crown Urn... as long as you keep stirring while the element is on, it is fine - no sign of holes appearing in my bags... Didn't really get any increased efficiency from doing it though so have stopped now...


----------



## RobB (12/3/10)

pmolou said:


> I know i've seen it before but i've been searching around and can't find references to what people use as a false bottom for the birko urns.. ie so the bag doesn't burn was going to get a 40l birko
> 
> any help would be great phil



I bought a large stainless bowl for a couple of dollars from an asian supermarket and drilled it full of holes so it's like a dodgy home-made colander that sits upside-down over the element. It allows me to do a mashout and gives me peace of mind that the bag isn't going to snag the boil dry gizmos on the bottom. I tried to do step mash with it, but the water/wort within the dome of the colander didn't mix very well with the rest of the fluid so my temps were all over the place. I pull it out after I've pulled out the bag.


----------



## MarkBastard (13/3/10)

Fantoman said:


> Yeah, I have done MO's without lifting the bag in a Crown Urn... as long as you keep stirring while the element is on, it is fine - no sign of holes appearing in my bags... Didn't really get any increased efficiency from doing it though so have stopped now...



What sort of efficiencies do you get? I wasn't very happy with my first attempt.

So you don't do a mash out, do you do a dunk sparge?

Or do you hang the bag and let it all drip out?


----------



## Bribie G (13/3/10)

BjornJ said:


> That sounds awesome, I paid $270 for mine and had to pick it up
> 
> Are you siphoning out the wort or using the tap?
> I find using the tap I get lots of trub sucked out through the tap and into the fermenter..
> ...



Using a hop bag and whirlfloc, then leaving the urn covered for about 20 mins I get maybe a cup of trub - which I discard - then the rest runs crystal clear. 
For increased efficiency I use a sparge in a bucket hanging off the freezer door of my dead fridge - You end up with about 5L extra wort, which I fix by boiling for an extra half hour. 

I've also tried a mashout, by hoisting the bag clear of the element, heating, then re-immersing the bag and giving the grain a good pump with the paint stirrer. For me the jury's still out about which is the best. However I can't see any situation where a bag should really come in touch with a hot element, if you use passive lagging during the mash - I lose only 1.5 degrees in a 90 min mash using the famous sleeping bag and doonah.

Mark, I have a skyhook and let it drip, and squeeze regularly, while the wort comes to the boil.


----------



## BjornJ (13/3/10)

I use whirlfloc and an immersion chiller, have never tried to whirlpool.
Wanted to whirlpool last time but ran out of time. When the wort was chilled, I just left the immersion chiller in place and took the wort out via the tap. I cleared probably a quarter of the urn of trub, sucking it out the tap and into my fermenter..

I fill a 4 litre juice plastic jug from the tap half full, then put the cap on it and shake it like crazy. When all is foam, I empty it in the fermenter and fill the jug again, shaking, emptying the very foamy wort into the fermenter and repeat.. The shaking get a bit tireing, but my wort is VERY airated I would say  

I use a steel colander over the element as well, but I think it slows the heating down quite a bit.
Maybe that's good, so I don't heat to fast to mash-out, I don't know.
Thinking of trying a cake rack, but will see.

thanks
Bjorn


----------



## bcp (13/3/10)

Mark^Bastard said:


> What sort of efficiencies do you get? I wasn't very happy with my first attempt.
> 
> So you don't do a mash out, do you do a dunk sparge?
> 
> Or do you hang the bag and let it all drip out?


After getting just under 50% efficiency with BIAB in my birko, & feeling thoroughly ashamed, i completely revised my technique and made it up to 76% on thursday. What worked? Well, since i tried almost everything, not yet sure which did most:
i. More thorough crush
ii. More stirring - start & middle
iii. Better temperature control
iv. Mash out. With the colander, there's no problems heating with bag still in. You can raise the bag slightly for better circulation. Cake tin will circulate heat better - planning to get one.
v. Much much better technique at squeezing the bag. Heat proof/waterproof gloves, then put it in bucket & gave it a really thorough squeeze.

My suspicion is that iv, i and ii were the keys in that order.


----------



## afromaiko (30/8/11)

Sorry to revive an old thread, but this was the most appropriate place I could find.

Does anyone have a photo of the element inside the newer model Birko? I see there is a pic of a spirally element earlier in this thread, which I think is the old version. Does the new version still have dangly wires to contend with when cleaning.

Also I can't find any pics of the Crown exposed elements, so if someone has one of those I'd really appreciate having a peek.

Thanks!


----------



## afromaiko (2/9/11)

I'm still interested to see pics of inside the exposed element latest Crown and Birko urns. 

If someone could please upload a photo of each that would really help with my purchase decision.

Thanks.


----------

