# Cube Bitterness Experiment



## Thirsty Boy (7/7/09)

Hey all - Been meaning to do this experiment for a while, finally got around to it.

I wanted to see how much bitterness would be added to a brew if you put hops into a No-Chill cube. There are various anecdotal tales about the place, I thught I would take human perceptions out of the equation and see what was happening from a pure measurable BU point of view.

*The experiment --*

*3.5L of 13plato wort was boiled with 7g (2g per litre) of Hallertau Hersbrucker hop pellets (approx 3.3%) for 90+ minutes. Hops added post hot break formation.
*The wort was then diluted back to 3.5L, mixed well and allowed to settle for 60mins - a 400ml sample (Sample A) of clear wort was taken and sealed. 
*The remaining wort was re-heated till it just boiled and allowed to re-settle for 10 mins
*2L of clear wort from the kettle was transferred into a 2L no-chill container (an old cordial bottle) with 4g (2g per litre) of the same hops. loose.
* The NC container was insulated (it would otherwise cool down much faster than a full sized NC cube) by being stuffed in a 2 bottle wine cooler bag and wrapped in a jumper. It was agitated every now and again during the first 4hrs - after that I was in bed.
*Approximately 12hrs after it was racked into the NC container the container was uninsulated and allowed to cool at whatever rate it did in my bag and on the bench at work.
*Some 16hrs after being cubed, 400ml of the still luke warm wort was racked into a 400ml sample bottle (Sample B)

The two sample bottles were passed to a lab tech at work and analyzed for bitterness.

*Results --*

Sample A - 31.4BU
Sample B - 44.4BU

The cube addition added 13BU to the wort - this equates to approximately 41% of the bitterness achieved by boiling the equivalent amount of hops for 90 minutes.

I did some twiddling in promash - Using the Rager formula with the default settings.

If I add 90min hops to a boil till I get 31.4IBU ... then the _equivalent amount of hops_ added to reach 44.4IBU need to be added between 25 & 30 mins from the end of the boil. So in the case of this experiment - the NC cube addition added bitterness equivalent to a 25-30min addition.

*Conclusions --*

Hops added to the no-chill cube will add significant bitterness to the wort. In this experiment the amount of bitterness added was equal to the amount added if the hops had been added with 25-30 mins remaining in the boil. (using Rager in pro-mash)

It must be remembered though that these hops were added to the cube loose and the cube occasionally shaken about. I would imagine that if the hops were in a hop bag inside the cube, or the cube was not disturbed .. less bitterness would be extracted.

-------------------------------------------------

Hope this info might be useful

Cheers

Thirsty


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## Stuster (7/7/09)

Intriguing info. That's a fair whack of bitterness. It's so hard to tell though how the differences in process might change the amount of bitterness added. It seems that the sample was keep hot for a fairly long time, possibly longer than a cube might. The main difference to my process is that you 'cube hopped' this one. Again, hard to say how much more bitterness you get because the hops are still in the wort all the time it is cooling (especially considering the shaking). Still very interesting results. I do aim for the lower end of the scale of bitterness for something like an APA and it seems that's the right way to go, but even so I might be getting more IBUs than I imagine.

Any chance you could ask the lab tech to measure the bitterness for a batch that was half cubed and half chilled but at the scales (and practice) that most of us are working at?


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## Fourstar (7/7/09)

Question: what temperature where these NC hops added to the bottle?

I usually do my hopping for my NC beers as follows:

Bittering: As a FWH.
Flavour: A 5 min - whirlpool addition
Aroma: A cube addition upon racking (when the wort is anywhere between 90-80 deg) or reopened and dropped in @ 70deg (reading off my sight thermometer). as an uber late additon (i think may be equivilant as a true whirlpool addition/hopback).

ive had this above aroma process questioned before about stability/infection but my wort us usually fermented within a week of cubing. if its going to happen later than that, i allow it to cool in the kettle to 80deg~ then rack into hops into the cube so i dont have to re-open.


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## matti (7/7/09)

Good work Thirsty proving the point made in earlier posts by some mere brain powers on AHB.
I love to hear when theory meets scientific proof or at least some where half way.

Matti


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## clean brewer (7/7/09)

So my Flavour addition into the cube is about right.... :icon_cheers: 

:beer: CB


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## hatchor (7/7/09)

all which brings us to the next question..... at what temperature does the bittering efficiency of hops start to taper off, does it follow a linear or a log path.... interested as I also nc and would like to get a bit closer to my planned but apparently estimated IBU's.

Great effort Thirsty :beerbang:


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## flattop (7/7/09)

TB this leads to a new territory in brewing, it leaves a possibility of a new step in brewing, a flamout style addition which adds more IBU than perhaps otherwise.
There is perhaps scope to adjust recipes for a "No Chill" addition thus the hop schedule could be 60 mins; 10 mins; no chill; dry hop......


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## clean brewer (7/7/09)

hatchor said:


> all which brings us to the next question..... at what temperature does the bittering efficiency of hops start to taper off, does it follow a linear or a log path.... interested as I also nc and would like to get a bit closer to my planned but apparently estimated IBU's.
> 
> Great effort Thirsty :beerbang:



This may help....

:icon_cheers: CB


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## jjeffrey (7/7/09)

nice one.

It'd be interesting to see how repeatable the results are. I wonder what the error is and where abouts in the error range these results lie.


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## eamonnfoley (7/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> Flavour: A 5 min - whirlpool addition



By the time my whirlpool settles I am well under 90C too. And the flavour addition is at this point. Some pretty good hop flavour is achieved and this addition doesnt appear to contribute to bitterness. The rate of isomerisation is much lower at these temps. I know brewers who chill, who end up leaving the whirlpool to settle before chilling anyway.

It is critical what the wort temperature is when the cube addition is added. For Flavour I would aim for 75-80C or so. BUt this can almost be achieved after the whirlpool in the brewpot. And then the hop trub doesnt need to go into the cube


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## eamonnfoley (7/7/09)

clean brewer said:


> This may help....
> 
> :icon_cheers: CB



picked this up an another thread about the same subject. 

View attachment isomerisation.pdf


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## Bribie G (7/7/09)

TB, I note the IBU figures but how were they derived? Do you have an IBUmeter :huh: or was it subjective by taste?


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## Thirsty Boy (7/7/09)

*Stu -* the temps were a "reasonable" approximation of what I see in full size cubes. If I brew in the afternoon/evening, my cube is still pretty warm in the morning and lucky to be room temp in 24hrs. I could ask the lab tech to test anything I want, its about how much trouble I am willing to go to to produce the sample. To get to full scale I would have to brew especially - if it so happens that I am making a brew that meets the criteria for a test, then I will take the samples, but I am not brewing full scale specifically for this.

*Fourstar -* I imagine the wort would have been in the 90s or high 80s when it was added to the cube with the hops in - Trying to emulate what I think is the most common method of adding cube hops, which is to rack from the whirlpool directly onto them.

*Hatchor -* there are tables and graphs out there that tell you exactly that information... its just that no one has crunched the numbers for the very long exposure to hot but sub boiling temperatures involved in No-Chill. I suspect it would involve some data logging and a bit of integral calculus.

*flattop -* I am looking ot get a bit better control over my process and I suspect that I will end up using a reduced 60min addition and no further kettle additions at all. I may dispose of hop additions to the kettle altogether for some brews. I have made a beer that was hopped only in the cube - it had great hop flavour and aroma .. but was under bitter. I have a little more data so I can tweak that process now.

TB


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## Thirsty Boy (7/7/09)

jjeffrey said:


> nice one.
> 
> It'd be interesting to see how repeatable the results are. I wonder what the error is and where abouts in the error range these results lie.




Oh don't give me that -- there is now experimental data, there was none before. You don't need to repeat for that to be either valuable or valid.

The error is in my volume measurements (+/- 2-3%) & my ability to weigh hops (.01g jeweler's scales) and the method used to measure the IBUs (I dont know... it is a gadget, but its the gadget a giant brewery uses to measure IBUs ... I'm gonna say its accuracy doesn't need to be considered)

I think the main results is "significant" bittering... and thats well within the error margins.

Yes Bribie - its an IBU meter.. or equivalent. I _think_ its an NIR spectrometer actually.


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## haysie (7/7/09)

I take my hatoff, the experimental stuff going on around here lately is brain blazing.
Does it really matter how the beer achieves its bitterness, I sort of understand the hot wort in the cube and the isomerization thing but I would argue for years upon years HOMEBREWERS have been adding flavour and aroma hop additions at "some`s theory" not ideal times.

I dont envisage Vicbrew judges or any judges to be carrying IBU measuring sticks or requesting brewers submit an analyis of beer bittering,haze etc etc etc content that TB can access via the employer. That would kill amateur brewing.
A yardstick yes, reinvent the wheel no. Estimated bitterness on a HOMEBREW scale has been happening a very looong time.


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## drtomc (7/7/09)

Way cool!

It *must* be right, since it explains the flaws in my first couple of BIABs.

T.


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## beers (7/7/09)

Nice work Thirsty. Thanks for posting  
It's higher than what I expected, & what I'd been calculating my cube additions at (about 15min).
Thanks for the info


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## browndog (7/7/09)

Excellent work Thirsty, great to see brewers pushing the boundarys of home craft brewing. I thought something might be a bit fishy with the IBUs being a bit high for such a low alpha hop, I've probably overlooked something very basic here, but when I punched 2g per L of 3.3% for a 90 min boil I got 17 IBUs in beersmith and that is with a 19% boil off. What is the go there, tried it with a 3.5L batch size and got the same result.

cheers

Browndog


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## smollocks (7/7/09)

Good work, this is valuable information. What AA were the hops?

The results seem to support my experience. My first no chill beer with flavour addition at 10 mins (cascade/b saaz) turned out too bitter and low on flavour. My second was cube hopped and is just ready to drink. From only 2 bottles the bitterness and flavour seem spot on, and it tastes very similar to the same recipe when it was chilled.

This is no criticism of your work, but another basic experiment would be to analyse samples of a double batch with standard 60/15/flameout hopping that was half-chilled, half no-chilled. It wouldn't shed any light on cube hopping, but presumably it would give an idea of the IBU difference incurred by no chill and would replicate common practice with respect to batch size and cooling time. Hop pellets break up so quickly when wet that I have doubts about the influence of agitation.


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## Polar Beer (7/7/09)

> *flattop -* I am looking ot get a bit better control over my process and I suspect that I will end up using a reduced 60min addition and no further kettle additions at all. I may dispose of hop additions to the kettle altogether for some brews. I have made a beer that was hopped only in the cube - it had great hop flavour and aroma .. but was under bitter. I have a little more data so I can tweak that process now.
> 
> TB



Great work Thirsty. :icon_cheers: 

I've done 6 no kettle hop brews (all into cube), inspired by your original post on this months ago and had very pleasing, but mixed results. Flavour and aroma was great on all, but too many were under bittered. Had 2 really balanced results using Nelson Sauvin (11.5%), which makes sense considering the high AA.
I'll also be taking the reduced 60mins approach and leaving out further kettle additions. 

This NC cube stuff has come a long way!


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## Polar Beer (7/7/09)

smollocks said:


> Good work, this is valuable information. What AA were the hops?



OP says 3.3%


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## raven19 (7/7/09)

Real interesting thread I shall continue to keep an eye on for sure.

Nice work Thirsty! :icon_cheers: 

I am a no chiller & love bitter beers (at the moment). Hence if I am getting an extra 10 -15 IBU in bitterness, so be it. I make very little adjustment at the moment in my beers.

If I recall correctly I have read some other posts on bitterness difference being bery difficult to detect in a chilled vs no-chill side by side experiment, I think it was a post by Butters some time ago.

Great thread again!!!!


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## Thirsty Boy (8/7/09)

smollocks said:


> Good work, this is valuable information. What AA were the hops?
> 
> The results seem to support my experience. My first no chill beer with flavour addition at 10 mins (cascade/b saaz) turned out too bitter and low on flavour. My second was cube hopped and is just ready to drink. From only 2 bottles the bitterness and flavour seem spot on, and it tastes very similar to the same recipe when it was chilled.
> 
> This is no criticism of your work, but another basic experiment would be to analyse samples of a double batch with standard 60/15/flameout hopping that was half-chilled, half no-chilled. It wouldn't shed any light on cube hopping, but presumably it would give an idea of the IBU difference incurred by no chill and would replicate common practice with respect to batch size and cooling time. Hop pellets break up so quickly when wet that I have doubts about the influence of agitation.



I'll do that one one of these days - As I said to stu, I will be approximating via a mini sized batch again, but I will do it. To keep things simple I will stay with one addition. Say a flame out addition ... stir in hops, let settle. 2L into my NC simulator and 500ml into an erlenmyer into an ice bath. Thats the beauty of small batches, I dont have to worry about making the beer drinkable at the end of the process.

I will see how cranky my pet lab tech gets about doing this for me ... if its not too cranky. I might pump out a series of tests with different hopping schedules.

TB


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## reviled (8/7/09)

Congrats Thirsty, great work :icon_cheers:


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## jjeffrey (8/7/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Oh don't give me that -- there is now experimental data, there was none before. You don't need to repeat for that to be either valuable or valid.



Ow, my chin hurts.

Sorry- didn't mean to imply your procedure was invalid, invaluable or inaccurate, and I wasn't referring to the accuracy of your measuring equipment.

You got a difference of 13 IBU. Considering the host of varibles as discussed in the thread, I wonder how much the difference in bitterness could vary given the same procedure (error range), and where abouts this result would fall in it. I reckon it's important, coz if we knew we could use it to estimate our bitterness fairly accurately.

A datum is better than no data. More data is better still, I'll see if I can get some next batch.

jj.


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## hazard (8/7/09)

I did post this last week, but seems appropriate to add to this thread as well - here is a table I picked up from Home Brew Talk forum, which compares bitterness of chilled to no-chill

View attachment No_Chill_Hop_Adjust.bmp


Appears to agree with Thirsty Boy results (but if I recall - at least one member disagreed with this table when first posted). 

I don't no-chill, but have been cooling kettle in a bathtub with some icy water - takes about an hour or two to chill, quicker than no-chill but slower than a good chilling system. I don't make any adjustments for slower chilling time, this all says to me - IBU calculations are, at best, what we would call in my business, a WAG (wild ass guess).

Hazard


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## Fourstar (8/7/09)

One thing i was thinking Thirsty when listening to the Brewstrong lagering podcast was regarding how polyphenols are used to measure IBU count. Put simply, if there are more of these polyphenols in suspension the IBU count would be higher.

Saying this, the 1st bottle had a longer time to settle or 'crash out' some of the polyphenols where as the dry hopped was done later and would have had more hop particular/matter in suspension.. this could have possibly added extra IBU count to the measurement. 

In addition to this, these IBU readings have been taken prior to fermentation. Even over time of fermentation, the hop profile in a beer mellows and what may be have been percieved as a bittering addtion on the palate pre-fermentation, may transform itself as a flavor additon upon tasting post fermentation. As you know, yeast, protiens and other polyphenols strip away hop acids from the beer as it all crashes out of suspension, thus adjusting the profile of the percieved bitterness, flavour and aroma.

Just out of curiosity, what formula is the lab using to calculate the IBU count and furthermore does our brewing software IBU estimation/calculation/armwaving usually stack up to whats actually calculated in the lab?

Cheers Thirsty!


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## buttersd70 (8/7/09)

Thirsy.

Next time, is there any chance you can get the tech to check for botulism whilst he's going about it?

:lol:


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## samhighley (8/7/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Next time, is there any chance you can get the tech to check for botulism whilst he's going about it?



And make sure there are no kittens in there.


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## Fents (8/7/09)

can someone break it down for me...

i should be doing my normal bittering addition at 60mins?
then flavour into the cube/fermenter?
then aroma dry hopping?


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## Fourstar (8/7/09)

Fents said:


> can someone break it down for me...
> i should be doing my normal bittering addition at 60mins?
> then flavour into the cube/fermenter?
> then aroma dry hopping?



According to that table, yes.

As an example to strengthen that table/negate it. My AIPA in the swap was done with the following:

A FWH addition as bittering
A 5 Min addition as flavour
A Whirlpool addition as flavour
A Cube addition at transfer to the cube (@ 80deg) for aroma.

After fermentation this had plenty of aroma.. just no dry hop flavour/aroma. Then i dry hopped for the grassyness/resinous flavour.

I think the real issue with getting the hop flavour (forgetting IBU) is the temp at what you subject to hops and length of time its @ 100-90 deg. The later you do it, the better and the less time it spends above 80 deg the more aroma you are going to get. I also find a nice slow ferment helps contain the aromas too.


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## Pumpy (8/7/09)

Great work Thirsty 

Pumpy


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## Thirsty Boy (8/7/09)

jjeffrey said:


> Ow, my chin hurts.
> 
> Sorry- didn't mean to imply your procedure was invalid, invaluable or inaccurate, and I wasn't referring to the accuracy of your measuring equipment.
> 
> ...



Oh -- my turn to be sorry. Wasn't meant to be chucking uppercuts. Failed to convey the convivial nature that riposte was meant to have.

I see what you mean -- but at this point I think that I am just trying to work out whether the guestimate figures people have been using are in fact in the right ball park. It seems they are. But ballpark is the stage the evidence is at for sure.

*Fents -* My experiment doesn't go into that much detail. Really it is only to give a better idea of what might happen if you do decide to put some hops into the cube. Whether you should or not is a different question.

My personal experience is that I get great flavour from cube additions, and a deeper more persistent, but not nearly as intense aroma from a cube hop (as compared to a late/whirlpool addition) - but, the intensity can be regarded as a recipe issue... more hops = more intensity.

What I am angling for eventually I suppose, is some compromise that lets you shift your hop additions so that less are added at the start of the boil, none in the middle or end stages - and a LOT in the cube. What you take away from the start of the boil - giving back to the cube so your overall hop bill is not significantly larger, to get a superior flavour/aroma experience and the same bitterness. I personally don't think that dry hops give the same sort of aroma as late hops and that they cant be interchanged properly, so I don't do that - If I want intense late hop/hopback style aroma, I Ultra Late Hop (french press) into the fermenter at 2/3rds attenuation.

Next iteration of this experiment for me will be to test whether traditional late hops add significant bitterness if the wort is no-chilled vs rapid chilled. But I learned today that the analysis of the bitterness is a little more than just shoving the wort into a gadget. It involves acidifying, adding solvents, shaking and a few other steps.. followed by a spectrometer. Not something that I can ask the tech to do for me every day if I want to maintain his goodwill.

Oh - and I twigged why the IBU levels in my experiment were much higher than you might expect from the modest addition of low alpha hops. Silly me, it is wort we were analysing.. the bitterness is going to be much higher than it would be in a finished beer. Much is lost during fermentation. And of course the software predicts the IBUs that would be in the finished beer, not the unfermented wort. If I had fermented out that 31.4 IBU wort .. I imagine the levels would be much closer to the low 20s .. which is more what you would expect.

TB

ps -- the micro guy might even be able to check for botulism... but what the hell would we all do if he actually found some?? I'd rather have nerve poisoning than have to slink up to Darren and admit he was right all along.


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## Fourstar (8/7/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Oh - and I twigged why the IBU levels in my experiment were much higher than you might expect from the modest addition of low alpha hops. Silly me, it is wort we were analysing.. the bitterness is going to be much higher than it would be in a finished beer. Much is lost during fermentation. And of course the software predicts the IBUs that would be in the finished beer, not the unfermented wort. If I had fermented out that 31.4 IBU wort .. I imagine the levels would be much closer to the low 20s .. which is more what you would expect.



Sweet, so my suspicions above where on the money.... nice.


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## buttersd70 (9/7/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> ps -- the micro guy might even be able to check for botulism... but what the hell would we all do if he actually found some?? I'd rather have nerve poisoning than have to slink up to Darren and admit he was right all along.



ROFL :lol:


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## Fourstar (9/7/09)

In before the fun police arrive! h34r:


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## clarkey7 (9/7/09)

Thirsty Boy said:


> Next iteration of this experiment for me will be to test whether traditional late hops add significant bitterness if the wort is no-chilled vs rapid chilled.
> TB


I can't wait for the results....this Question has been bugging me for awhile now....

Great work TB :beerbang: ,

PB


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## lastdrinks (9/7/09)

This is all very interesting and reinforces my adjustments i make with my BIAG/co-chill. 

With these new lab results can we lobby Beersmith to update their software to reflect no-chill hop additions.  because i keep forgetting what my manual process is for making adjustments.....have i already compensated or not in my recipe.....bugger it have another home brew.


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## buttersd70 (9/7/09)

lastdrinks said:


> This is all very interesting and reinforces my adjustments i make with my BIAG/co-chill.
> 
> With these new lab results can we lobby Beersmith to update their software to reflect no-chill hop additions.  because i keep forgetting what my manual process is for making adjustments.....have i already compensated or not in my recipe.....bugger it have another home brew.



Doubt that beersmith would be willing to do any such thing.....have a read through the BS forum in relation to under estimation on the bitterness calculations compared to other software/manual calculation, and the dismissive 'well, so many things effect bitterness that ymmv anyway, so what does it matter if identical recipes produce different projected results in different software' response.

(yes, many, many things effect the end bitterness -however, the _theoretical, projected_ bitterness level should be the same, all things being equal, regardless of what softwae is used. Sorry for slightly OT....but it has been mentioned (and ignored) on a few occasions.)


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## Bribie G (9/7/09)

Off topic.. when are beersmith going to incorporate BIAB as well? (sure I know it can be sort of 'fudged') That's the main thing that has put me off buying software for the last year, plus I don't really need it for the two or three main styles I brew although with the comps next year I'll have to jump on board I suppose.

On topic, TB I have Styrian Goldings ready to go, I've been doing 10 minute hop additions along the lines of Graham Wheeler's Real Ale recipes and next time I do my Tees-side Strongarm I'll do the addition into the cube instead. :icon_cheers: 

Incidentally I had a very nice Cascade Special Lager at a function the other week, up there with any Euro Pilsener. How would something like Saaz plugs go in a cube? Might try them in my house aus lager that currently only has a single POR addition and I'm doing it on Saturday. I can easily strain out the veg when transferring to fermenter.


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## shmick (9/7/09)

Well done Thirsty

Great to see direct experimental data published rather than just postulations and (often misguided) theory.  

I noticed in your O/P that after the 'A' sample (crash chilled) was taken, the wort was reheated to near boiling again before the no-chilled 'B' sample was produced.
How long did this reheat take?

Even with the 90min boil do you think this might have contributed in part to the 13 IBU difference?

Most of the published time v IBU charts show negligible increases in IBU for a small increase in time after 90 mins boil but I've yet to see any analysis of boil - cool - reboil evaluations.

It would be interesting to test both samples taken simultaneously but chilled at different rates also.


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## AndrewQLD (9/7/09)

buttersd70 said:


> Doubt that beersmith would be willing to do any such thing.....have a read through the BS forum in relation to under estimation on the bitterness calculations compared to other software/manual calculation, and the dismissive 'well, so many things effect bitterness that ymmv anyway, so what does it matter if identical recipes produce different projected results in different software' response.



Off topic again but what programs are you referring to butters? I've just entered the same recipe into BeerSmith and Beertools pro and get the same IBUs down to the last decimal place.

On topic, 


> I think the real issue with getting the hop flavour (forgetting IBU) is the temp at what you subject to hops and length of time its @ 100-90 deg. The later you do it, the better and the less time it spends above 80 deg the more aroma you are going to get. I also find a nice slow ferment helps contain the aromas too.



I think Fourstar has hit the nail on the head. A vigorous ferment will cause a lot of the hop character to be blown off and I've noticed this with traditionally cooled worts. I think a combination of flavour hopping below 80 and a long slow fermentation at the lower range of the yeasts temperature tolerance would help greatly.

Andrew


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## buttersd70 (9/7/09)

Andrew.
referring to a couple of things...promash, mainly. Also Tinseths calculator, (but that doesn't take equipment into account), and also the database (which appears to match promash). 
Must admit, haven't tried beertools...

So this thread doesnt' get highjacked (sorry TB  ) much further, more details are in this thread here


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## Thirsty Boy (9/7/09)

shmick said:


> Well done Thirsty
> 
> Great to see direct experimental data published rather than just postulations and (often misguided) theory.
> 
> ...



Its possible - one of the assumptions of the experiment is that the 90+ min boil (probably closer to 2 hrs) had wrung as much bitterness out of the hops as was going to come out. I also in the process of transferring etc, left behind the vast majority of break and hop material, before the wort went back on for the re-heating.

Still like you said... it _might_ have been a couple of IBUs worth. Significant when the total extra is only 13


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