# Russian Imperial Stout



## Cloud Surfer

I thought I would post my recipe in case anyone at home wants to play along.

I recently bottled my first go at a RIS, and had to stop myself drinking all the sample in the hydrometer cylinder. It started at 1.100 and finished at 1.021 after its six week journey into bottle. It was so complex and balanced already. I used the familiar Coopers three tin recipe with some steeped grain. Only two packets of US-05 and temperature control was via moving the fermenter around the house.

So, I think I can do better with what I’ve learnt already. I’ve got a temperature controlled conical fermenter now, and an oxygen aerating setup. I’m also getting a TILT to keep an eye on the fermentation progress. Ingredients will look like this-

1.7kg Coopers Stout
1.7kg Coopers Dark Ale
1.7kg Coopers Lager
1.5kg Coopers LME
1.0kg Dextrose
500g Medium Chrystal
500g Dark Munich
250g Chocolate
250g Roasted Barley
40g EK Goldings (10 minutes)
4 packets M42 New World Strong Ale yeast

From the first brew I’ve added a tin of LME to up the ABV. I’ve included some extra grains for a bit more complexity. I’ll hot steep the Chrystal and Munich for 30 minutes, but I’m going to cold steep the Chocolate and Roasted Barley for 24 hours. I didn’t add any extra hops first time, and thought I would include a flavour addition this time, though I guess that might be a waste given how long I plan to age the beer. I’m looking forward to trying the M42 yeast and will give it a better pitch rate this time.

The loose plan is to pitch at 18C and raise that to 21C as things are winding down. I’ll add the Dextrose around day 5. Based on my first RIS, I’ll probably leave it at primary fermentation temperature for 3 or 4 weeks total. I can dump the trub and yeast cake whenever I want to keep the wort clean. Then drop to 14C for 4 weeks before cold conditioning and bottling. I’ve got a spare pack of M42, so might use half that when I rack to the bottling bucket. Bottle at 2.0 CO2.

Brew day should be a lot of fun with all the pieces of the puzzle, and given it will be aging only a couple of months behind my first RIS I’m looking forward to comparing the two beers and how the extra ingredients play out.


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## Paleman

Cloud Surfer said:


> I thought I would post my recipe in case anyone at home wants to play along.
> 
> I recently bottled my first go at a RIS, and had to stop myself drinking all the sample in the hydrometer cylinder. It started at 1.100 and finished at 1.021 after its six week journey into bottle. It was so complex and balanced already. I used the familiar Coopers three tin recipe with some steeped grain. Only two packets of US-05 and temperature control was via moving the fermenter around the house.
> 
> So, I think I can do better with what I’ve learnt already. I’ve got a temperature controlled conical fermenter now, and an oxygen aerating setup. I’m also getting a TILT to keep an eye on the fermentation progress. Ingredients will look like this-
> 
> 1.7kg Coopers Stout
> 1.7kg Coopers Dark Ale
> 1.7kg Coopers Lager
> 1.5kg Coopers LME
> 1.0kg Dextrose
> 500g Medium Chrystal
> 500g Dark Munich
> 250g Chocolate
> 250g Roasted Barley
> 40g EK Goldings (10 minutes)
> 4 packets M42 New World Strong Ale yeast
> 
> From the first brew I’ve added a tin of LME to up the ABV. I’ve included some extra grains for a bit more complexity. I’ll hot steep the Chrystal and Munich for 30 minutes, but I’m going to cold steep the Chocolate and Roasted Barley for 24 hours. I didn’t add any extra hops first time, and thought I would include a flavour addition this time, though I guess that might be a waste given how long I plan to age the beer. I’m looking forward to trying the M42 yeast and will give it a better pitch rate this time.
> 
> The loose plan is to pitch at 18C and raise that to 21C as things are winding down. I’ll add the Dextrose around day 5. Based on my first RIS, I’ll probably leave it at primary fermentation temperature for 3 or 4 weeks total. I can dump the trub and yeast cake whenever I want to keep the wort clean. Then drop to 14C for 4 weeks before cold conditioning and bottling. I’ve got a spare pack of M42, so might use half that when I rack to the bottling bucket. Bottle at 2.0 CO2.
> 
> Brew day should be a lot of fun with all the pieces of the puzzle, and given it will be aging only a couple of months behind my first RIS I’m looking forward to comparing the two beers and how the extra ingredients play out.




Thats a big beer.


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## Cloud Surfer

Big beers are the best. I could drink just RIS and Belgium Quads for the rest of my life. I love their complexity and ability to change with ageing. It’s been a revelation for me discovering that beers like these can be made at home. I had no idea what was possible via home brewing and now I’m hooked. So I’ll spend a lot of time making beer like this, developing the recipes and building up ageing stock.


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## Paleman

Cloud Surfer said:


> Big beers are the best. I could drink just RIS and Belgium Quads for the rest of my life. I love their complexity and ability to change with ageing. It’s been a revelation for me discovering that beers like these can be made at home. I had no idea what was possible via home brewing and now I’m hooked. So I’ll spend a lot of time making beer like this, developing the recipes and building up ageing stock.



I just made a toucan with Coopers stout and dark ale. Did a mini mash with 2kg of ale malt, added a kilo of milk stout booster and some fuggles hops. About a month in the bottle, no word of a lie its the best stout ( bar one a mates all grain ) that ive ever tasted.


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## Cloud Surfer

Sounds terrific, especially with all that extra malt in the mini mash. I can only imagine how much better it will be again with more time in the bottle. I think the secret is to brew them twice as fast as you drink them so you can enjoy their ageing qualities.


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## Paleman

Cloud Surfer said:


> Sounds terrific, especially with all that extra malt in the mini mash. I can only imagine how much better it will be again with more time in the bottle. I think the secret is to brew them twice as fast as you drink them so you can enjoy their ageing qualities.



Thats the problem, sooo tasty. I did this as a project for drinking next winter. Not happening. I'll have to do another batch very soon.


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## yankinoz

On the recipe, if you steep between about 61 and 71, you're minimashing the Munich and maybe, maybe converting a tiny portion of the other grains. Niot a bad idea to gert more flavour and suigar out of the Munich.

On big beers, do you drink them after standing around all day in the hot sun six days in a row while holding paddles in front of some kind of altar, as I've seen folks do down here?


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## Cloud Surfer

yankinoz said:


> On the recipe, if you steep between about 61 and 71, you're minimashing the Munich and maybe, maybe converting a tiny portion of the other grains. Niot a bad idea to gert more flavour and suigar out of the Munich.


Sweet thanks. I steeped 1 kg of dark Munich in my first RIS at 70C for 30 minutes. I think that was great for the flavour and also helped the gravity.


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## Cloud Surfer

yankinoz said:


> On big beers, do you drink them after standing around all day in the hot sun six days in a row while holding paddles in front of some kind of altar, as I've seen folks do down here?


Sounds like a good sport.


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## wide eyed and legless

Cloud Surfer said:


> I thought I would post my recipe in case anyone at home wants to play along.
> 
> I recently bottled my first go at a RIS, and had to stop myself drinking all the sample in the hydrometer cylinder. It started at 1.100 and finished at 1.021 after its six week journey into bottle. It was so complex and balanced already. I used the familiar Coopers three tin recipe with some steeped grain. Only two packets of US-05 and temperature control was via moving the fermenter around the house.
> 
> So, I think I can do better with what I’ve learnt already. I’ve got a temperature controlled conical fermenter now, and an oxygen aerating setup. I’m also getting a TILT to keep an eye on the fermentation progress. Ingredients will look like this-
> 
> 1.7kg Coopers Stout
> 1.7kg Coopers Dark Ale
> 1.7kg Coopers Lager
> 1.5kg Coopers LME
> 1.0kg Dextrose
> 500g Medium Chrystal
> 500g Dark Munich
> 250g Chocolate
> 250g Roasted Barley
> 40g EK Goldings (10 minutes)
> 4 packets M42 New World Strong Ale yeast
> 
> From the first brew I’ve added a tin of LME to up the ABV. I’ve included some extra grains for a bit more complexity. I’ll hot steep the Chrystal and Munich for 30 minutes, but I’m going to cold steep the Chocolate and Roasted Barley for 24 hours. I didn’t add any extra hops first time, and thought I would include a flavour addition this time, though I guess that might be a waste given how long I plan to age the beer. I’m looking forward to trying the M42 yeast and will give it a better pitch rate this time.
> 
> The loose plan is to pitch at 18C and raise that to 21C as things are winding down. I’ll add the Dextrose around day 5. Based on my first RIS, I’ll probably leave it at primary fermentation temperature for 3 or 4 weeks total. I can dump the trub and yeast cake whenever I want to keep the wort clean. Then drop to 14C for 4 weeks before cold conditioning and bottling. I’ve got a spare pack of M42, so might use half that when I rack to the bottling bucket. Bottle at 2.0 CO2.
> 
> Brew day should be a lot of fun with all the pieces of the puzzle, and given it will be aging only a couple of months behind my first RIS I’m looking forward to comparing the two beers and how the extra ingredients play out.


I would spare the oxygenating set up, the M42 along with other Mangrove Jack dry yeast needs no aerating or oxygenating. You will just be, 1) wasting money and time. 2) Pumping oxygen into a wort which will not be taken up by the yeast. Hardly surprising seeing as their yeasts come from the main suppliers and re badged.


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## bloodygoose

Cloud Surfer said:


> Big beers are the best. I could drink just RIS and Belgium Quads for the rest of my life


Totally with you, all my brews now (BIAB all grain) are RIS variants with Kate the Great my current favourite. I’d love to try some Belgian quads. Trappistes Rochefort 10 is my favourite commercial beer - any home brew clones or recommended quad recipe?


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## Cloud Surfer

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would spare the oxygenating set up, the M42 along with other Mangrove Jack dry yeast needs no aerating or oxygenating. You will just be, 1) wasting money and time. 2) Pumping oxygen into a wort which will not be taken up by the yeast. Hardly surprising seeing as their yeasts come from the main suppliers and re badged.


That’s ok, I already have the oxygen setup to use.


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## Cloud Surfer

bloodygoose said:


> Totally with you, all my brews now (BIAB all grain) are RIS variants with Kate the Great my current favourite. I’d love to try some Belgian quads. Trappistes Rochefort 10 is my favourite commercial beer - any home brew clones or recommended quad recipe?


My new conical fermenter will be free in a few days when I bottle the Hefeweizen that’s in it, and then it will be RIS time. That’s going to lock the fermenter away for 8 weeks or a little more, and then it will be time for a quad. I’ve done two Belgium Tripels so far, but the quads are where it’s at. A Rochefort 10 or Abt 12 type dark quad is what I’ll be trying to clone.

The Candi Syrup site has a lot of great recipes, lots of Belgium’s. Their D180 syrup looks great for dark quads. The Wyeast 1762 is the Rochefort yeast I think. That’s as much recipe research as I’ve done so far.


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## kadmium

Any reason you will ferment for 8 weeks?


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## wide eyed and legless

Cloud Surfer said:


> That’s ok, I already have the oxygen setup to use.


It isn't about having the set up, its about what may or may not happen, if the manufacturers of yeast cultures advise not to aerate or oxygenate the wort prior to pitching, then following the advice seems the sensible approach.


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## Cloud Surfer

kadmium said:


> Any reason you will ferment for 8 weeks?


Not really 8 weeks. For my first RIS I had it in primary for 3 weeks then moved it to a sealed jerry can type container. Over the next two and a half weeks I had to release the pressure four times because the yeasties were still doing their thing. So I’m planning for 4 weeks at primary temp before dropping to bulk conditioning temp for another 4 weeks, then dropping to cold conditioning temp for 5 days, then bottling.

I could transfer it to that jerry can again after 4 weeks and free up the fermenter for the next brew, but that defeats one of the main reasons I bought that fermenter. I like that I can do primary, bulk conditioning and cold conditioning all in the same place without transferring so can avoid oxygen or infection issues.

The best solution is to get a second Grainfather conical and have a better production cycle going, but I’ll hold off for now.


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## Cloud Surfer

wide eyed and legless said:


> It isn't about having the set up, its about what may or may not happen, if the manufacturers of yeast cultures advise not to aerate or oxygenate the wort prior to pitching, then following the advice seems the sensible approach.



That’s a good video, David makes many good ones. I did know the best practice for dry yeast was to pitch straight into the wort, but never heard about not aerating the wort. Interestingly, David is a commercial brewer as well, and he said at the end of the video he will be continuing to aerated his wort.


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## wide eyed and legless

I think its debatable whether Mr Heath is or has been a commercial brewer as he claims, I am just suggesting following the recommend guide lines of Fermentis and the like, can save tears at the end of the day.
Answers about yeast and fermentation


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## Nullnvoid

wide eyed and legless said:


> I think its debatable whether Mr Heath is or has been a commercial brewer as he claims, I am just suggesting following the recommend guide lines of Fermentis and the like, can save tears at the end of the day.
> Answers about yeast and fermentation



Next you will tell me that Dr Hans isn't a real doctor!


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## Cloud Surfer

Brew day was today. That's got to be the best part of the process. Or is it drinking day? I decided to take a few photos this time.

I changed the recipe very slightly. The LHBS ran out of Medium Crystal, so I used Light Crystal instead, and I also decided to up the Roasted Barley to 500g. I decided to increase the batch to 22L, so it was a chance to use some D180 Candi Syrup I was keen to try, so I could maintain my target OG. It has a lovely complex flavour that will complement the RIS well.

Here's a question. Brewfather indicated my OG should be 1.100 without the dextrose which will get added in about 5 days. However it came in at 1.115. That's higher than I was expecting, but I didn't make an allowance for the steeped grains. Does that sound reasonable to get an extra 15 points just from steeping the grains? Anyway given that, I'm going to increase the batch to 23L now. That will get me around 1.123 OG once I add the dextrose. If I can get the FG below 1.028 I will be happy with that.


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## Cloud Surfer

It was my first time using roasted grains. I steeped the 500g of Roasted Barley and 250g of Chocolate in 3L of water in the fridge for 24 hours, then added it with 10 minutes left in the boil. I was chewing on grain and tasting samples. The flavour and aroma was amazing.


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## Cloud Surfer

I hot steeped the Light Crystal and Dark Munich at 70C for 30 minutes. More sweet, malty liquid to try. Then I bought that to the boil and started adding everything else to the mix with 10 minutes left to run.


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## Cloud Surfer

End of the boil with everything in the pot and the EKG hops as well.


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## Cloud Surfer

I chilled the wort to 30C and poured it into the fermenter. Poured cold water on top to bring it up to 21L for now. Checked temperature and it was 18C. What a guess. Pitched 4 packets of M42 yeast and then threw in the new TILT for its first run and then buttoned up the fermenter. I've got it set to 18C and will keep it cool for a while as I've heard the M42 can get a bit wild. I'll hold off on the dextrose for a while to. Otherwise it might be like throwing a bucket of chips into a school of piranha.


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## kadmium

Looks good, 500 grams of roast barley would give you about 8 points on it's own, so it doesn't surprise me you got extra points. But without seeing your full recipe it's hard to know? Did you not add any of your steeping grains into Brewfather?


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## Cloud Surfer

My recipe was in the first post and I was too lazy to re type it. For the grain I had 500g each of Light Crystal, Dark Munich and Roasted Barley and 250g of Chocolate. Interesting what you say about the Roast Barley, I thought seeing as it is not malted, you don't get any fermentables from it, only flavour/aroma/colour. I've got no idea.

I didn't put the steeped grain into Brewfather. I'll throw them in.


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## kadmium

I'm not an expert, but I believe roasted barley will still contribute sugar, however I have been wrong many times before. My suggestion would be to add all your ingredients into Brewfather, it knows better than I do!


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## Cloud Surfer

kadmium said:


> I'm not an expert


I don't know, you seem to be doing pretty well.

I'll play around with Brewfather tomorrow.


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## kadmium

Cloud Surfer said:


> I don't know, you seem to be doing pretty well.
> 
> I'll play around with Brewfather tomorrow.


Don't pump my ego, it's big enough already! 

Haha, looks like a tasty brew. Will be good to see how it turns out!


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## Cloud Surfer

kadmium said:


> Haha, looks like a tasty brew. Will be good to see how it turns out!


I have high hopes for this one. I just sacrificed a bottle of RIS from my first batch which has only been in bottle two weeks. I wanted to see how that base recipe worked out. It was good, nothing offensive about it at all despite its age. I think the long primary and conditioning helped. This brew has a lot of extra additions over my first RIS recipe, so I have my fingers crossed.

I put the grains into Brewfather, but it gave a very high OG. So I fudged around with the efficiency factor and a 50% efficiency brought the OG to what I actually achieved. I see Brewfather gives points for the Roasted Barley. So yes, you are indeed an expert.


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## Half-baked

wide eyed and legless said:


> I am just suggesting following the recommend guide lines of Fermentis and the like, can save tears at the end of the day.
> Answers about yeast and fermentation


Being a bit of a pedant here, but Fermentis don't recommend that people aerate the wort... which is not the same as recommending that people do not aerate.

From the website:
_We don’t recommend aerating the wort in normal conditions. The dry yeast has been produced and dried with a specific know-how of the Lesaffre Group, in order to maximize the Ergosterols content of the cells. This allows the yeast to grow/multiply and ferment well.

However, you could aerate the wort in particular cases, for example if you recycle the yeast. There is no difference (for the O2) between Ale and Lager._

My reading of this is that aerating is not necessary, rather than being problematic.


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## wide eyed and legless

Half-baked said:


> Being a bit of a pedant here, but Fermentis don't recommend that people aerate the wort... which is not the same as recommending that people do not aerate.
> 
> From the website:
> _We don’t recommend aerating the wort in normal conditions. The dry yeast has been produced and dried with a specific know-how of the Lesaffre Group, in order to maximize the Ergosterols content of the cells. This allows the yeast to grow/multiply and ferment well.
> 
> However, you could aerate the wort in particular cases, for example if you recycle the yeast. There is no difference (for the O2) between Ale and Lager._
> 
> My reading of this is that aerating is not necessary, rather than being problematic.


That's exactly what I was pointing out.


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## Half-baked

wide eyed and legless said:


> That's exactly what I was pointing out.


Cool, just wanted to make sure OP didn't think they did something wrong, just something unnecessary...


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## Grmblz

Oh dear, have to disagree, "_We don’t recommend aerating the wort in normal conditions" _ this is a polite way of saying "don't do it"

_"However, you could aerate the wort in particular cases, for example if you recycle the yeast"_ and this is referring to a completely different scenario than pitching their dried yeast.

That's my take on it, as always opinions will vary.


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## wide eyed and legless

Half-baked said:


> Cool, just wanted to make sure OP didn't think they did something wrong, just something unnecessary...


Well adding oxygen into a wort where the yeast is not going to use it could be wrong, does the oxygen stay in there? Read some of the posts on Low Oxygen Brewing it isn't easy to get oxygen out of vessels beer or wort.


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## Half-baked

I've only seen advice that aerating is unnecessary for dry yeast... and that is consistent with what is on the Fermentis website.

It'd be good to know of any reputable sources that say aerating is detrimental when pitching dry yeast.


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## kadmium

Oxygen is used by the yeast during the growth phase to synthesize sterols and unsaturated fatty acids, which they need for healthy growth. Dry Yeast contains yeast that already have these stores, created during the process of making the dry yeast. Therefore, the yeast contain the presynthesised sterols / UFAs and are good for a few 'generations' of cell division.

If you pitch sufficient yeast, oxygen is not needed. Will it do harm to your beer? I don't think there is any sufficient evidence either way, but anecdotally I don't believe it's doing any harm. It's simply not needed, and as such why do it?

Once you are repitching on the old yeast, you do need to oxygenate so that the yeast can synthesise the sterols etc, so yes properly oxygenated wort is important for liquid / washed yeast.


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## razz

Cloud Surfer said:


> Brew day was today. That's got to be the best part of the process. Or is it drinking day? I decided to take a few photos this time.
> 
> I changed the recipe very slightly. The LHBS ran out of Medium Crystal, so I used Light Crystal instead, and I also decided to up the Roasted Barley to 500g. I decided to increase the batch to 22L, so it was a chance to use some D180 Candi Syrup I was keen to try, so I could maintain my target OG. It has a lovely complex flavour that will complement the RIS well.
> 
> Here's a question. Brewfather indicated my OG should be 1.100 without the dextrose which will get added in about 5 days. However it came in at 1.115. That's higher than I was expecting, but I didn't make an allowance for the steeped grains. Does that sound reasonable to get an extra 15 points just from steeping the grains? Anyway given that, I'm going to increase the batch to 23L now. That will get me around 1.123 OG once I add the dextrose. If I can get the FG below 1.028 I will be happy with that.
> 
> View attachment 119148


It looks like you have about 2kgs of grain there Cloud Surfer? No doubt that is what would account for the extra 15 points. What yeast are you using?
Edit. Looks like M42.


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## Grmblz

Half-baked said:


> I've only seen advice that aerating is unnecessary for dry yeast... and that is consistent with what is on the Fermentis website.
> It'd be good to know of any reputable sources that say aerating is detrimental when pitching dry yeast.


You quoted the Fermentis Q&A, which I would call a reputable source (seeing as they make the stuff)
Aerating is unnecessary is not what Fermentis asserts, they quite clearly state "we do not recommend it"

"We don’t recommend aerating the wort in normal conditions" pedant or not how in real terms is this different to
We recommend people do not aerate the wort in normal conditions.

If you want to re-hydrate and or oxygenate/aerate then by all means do it, but to interpret a statement in such a fashion as to support your inclination is fraught with danger.

This advice from Fermentis should be viewed in the context of their products only of course, as different yeast manufacturing techniques will result in different requirements for the use of their products.


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## Cloud Surfer

razz said:


> It looks like you have about 2kgs of grain there Cloud Surfer? No doubt that is what would account for the extra 15 points. What yeast are you using?
> Edit. Looks like M42.


Seems you’re right. I hadn’t considered I would get so much out of the grains from just steeping.

Yes I used M42. I think it should be a good RIS yeast. I pitched 4 packets and have a spare packet which I’ll use a bit from when I bottle given it will be a couple of months or more until I get to bottling.


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## Half-baked

Grmblz said:


> We don’t recommend aerating the wort in normal conditions" pedant or not how in real terms is this different to
> We recommend people do not aerate the wort in normal conditions.


I didn’t really mean to sidetrack this thread into English pedantry, but I will anyway...
We recommend you = we think you should
We do not recommend you = we’re not saying you should
We recommend you do not = we’re saying you shouldn’t
As an example, the very next Q&A from the Fermentis website:
_Do you recommend using a rehydrating agent? 
We actually do not recommend any rehydrating agent. Even though it will not harm the yeasts, we don’t see any positive effect with our range. In fact, we believe that if there is an effect, it is related to the nutrients added in fermentation. So, adjusting the nutrition in the fermentation is more than enough._

That’s not saying don’t use a rehydrating agent, that’s saying it’s not necessary.

Or on more of a tangent, it’s like the difference between guilty, not guilty and innocent.

I don’t have any inclinations on the use of dry yeast I’m trying to justify, just on the use of the English language


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## wide eyed and legless

OK, aerating oxygenating a wort where the yeast will not use it means there is DO in the wort, the DO in the wort may or may not come out. If it does come out, there won't be the velocity of CO2 needed to purge the oxygen from the head space of the fermenter.
I run my venting CO2 to purge the secondary, even though in doing that I know I will still have o2 in there, not a lot I can do about it, but then I am going to be drinking it fairly quickly so not too many concerns. I do try and am conscious of keeping o2 out of my beer as much as I could reasonably expect. But it is nigh impossible to totally be free of oxygen.
Some good reads here.








Methods of the Modern Brewhouse - The Modern Brewhouse


A Detailed Review and Summary of Key Process Points and Information Concerning Low Oxygen Brewing and the Development of a Low Oxygen Brewhouse.




www.themodernbrewhouse.com


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## Cloud Surfer

Disregard.


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## GrumpyPaul

Half-baked said:


> I didn’t really mean to sidetrack this thread into English pedantry, but I will anyway...
> We recommend you = we think you should
> We do not recommend you = we’re not saying you should
> We recommend you do not = we’re saying you shouldn’t
> As an example, the very next Q&A from the Fermentis website:
> _Do you recommend using a rehydrating agent?
> We actually do not recommend any rehydrating agent. Even though it will not harm the yeasts, we don’t see any positive effect with our range. In fact, we believe that if there is an effect, it is related to the nutrients added in fermentation. So, adjusting the nutrition in the fermentation is more than enough._
> 
> That’s not saying don’t use a rehydrating agent, that’s saying it’s not necessary.
> 
> Or on more of a tangent, it’s like the difference between guilty, not guilty and innocent.
> 
> I don’t have any inclinations on the use of dry yeast I’m trying to justify, just on the use of the English language



Please keep the posts on track I'm sure OP didn't start this thread for a pedantic English lesson. Lets keep on track and help him with his RIS - or take the yeast debate to a more appropriate thread. Any further tit for tat that is going off track will be deleted


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## wide eyed and legless

Cloud Surfer said:


> I thought I would post my recipe in case anyone at home wants to play along.
> 
> I recently bottled my first go at a RIS, and had to stop myself drinking all the sample in the hydrometer cylinder. It started at 1.100 and finished at 1.021 after its six week journey into bottle. It was so complex and balanced already. I used the familiar Coopers three tin recipe with some steeped grain. Only two packets of US-05 and temperature control was via moving the fermenter around the house.
> 
> So, I think I can do better with what I’ve learnt already. I’ve got a temperature controlled conical fermenter now, *and an oxygen aerating setup.* I’m also getting a TILT to keep an eye on the fermentation progress. Ingredients will look like this-
> 
> 1.7kg Coopers Stout
> 1.7kg Coopers Dark Ale
> 1.7kg Coopers Lager
> 1.5kg Coopers LME
> 1.0kg Dextrose
> 500g Medium Chrystal
> 500g Dark Munich
> 250g Chocolate
> 250g Roasted Barley
> 40g EK Goldings (10 minutes)
> 4 packets M42 New World Strong Ale yeast
> 
> From the first brew I’ve added a tin of LME to up the ABV. I’ve included some extra grains for a bit more complexity. I’ll hot steep the Chrystal and Munich for 30 minutes, but I’m going to cold steep the Chocolate and Roasted Barley for 24 hours. I didn’t add any extra hops first time, and thought I would include a flavour addition this time, though I guess that might be a waste given how long I plan to age the beer. I’m looking forward to trying the M42 yeast and will give it a better pitch rate this time.
> 
> The loose plan is to pitch at 18C and raise that to 21C as things are winding down. I’ll add the Dextrose around day 5. Based on my first RIS, I’ll probably leave it at primary fermentation temperature for 3 or 4 weeks total. I can dump the trub and yeast cake whenever I want to keep the wort clean. Then drop to 14C for 4 weeks before cold conditioning and bottling. I’ve got a spare pack of M42, so might use half that when I rack to the bottling bucket. Bottle at 2.0 CO2.
> 
> Brew day should be a lot of fun with all the pieces of the puzzle, and given it will be aging only a couple of months behind my first RIS I’m looking forward to comparing the two beers and how the extra ingredients play out.


I would have thought that the oxygenating debate with dried yeast was in line with the OP's original post?


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## philrob

wide eyed and legless said:


> I would have thought that the oxygenating debate with dried yeast was in line with the OP's original post?


It's a peripheral debate. Probably should be a separate thread.


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## wide eyed and legless

philrob said:


> It's a peripheral debate. Probably should be a separate thread.


Why? It was brought up in the original post! Either advice is needed on all points or it isn't needed at all. I already have had one post removed today, just feel free to remove any other posts you don't like.


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## Grmblz

^ +1 Let's not go down the US route mod's, over zealous moderation is almost as bad as no moderation.
I was seeking clarification from Half-baked and he gave it, I may not agree with his reasoning but as far as I can tell it was all very cordial.
Surely we can agree to disagree, and question comments without the threat of big brother stomping all over the place.
I applaud your reactions to the recent trolling, good work, but to accuse us of tit for tat for what has become a relevant side issue discussion from the OP's post is imho over the top.


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## yankinoz

Grmblz said:


> You quoted the Fermentis Q&A, which I would call a reputable source (seeing as they make the stuff)
> Aerating is unnecessary is not what Fermentis asserts, they quite clearly state "we do not recommend it"
> 
> "We don’t recommend aerating the wort in normal conditions" pedant or not how in real terms is this different to
> We recommend people do not aerate the wort in normal conditions.
> 
> If you want to re-hydrate and or oxygenate/aerate then by all means do it, but to interpret a statement in such a fashion as to support your inclination is fraught with danger.
> 
> This advice from Fermentis should be viewed in the context of their products only of course, as different yeast manufacturing techniques will result in different requirements for the use of their products.



Lallemand (Danstar) says much the same.


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## Cloud Surfer

Fermentation is running nicely. It’s dropped from 1.115 to 1.075 in less than 48 hours. I’m having fun with the TILT, checking the SG every few hours.

The airlock is running real hard, but no signs of impending danger. I have a blow off tube on standby, but doesn’t look like I’ll need it. I wonder if excess temperature is the main cause of explosive fermentation. I’ve got it running at 18C which might be keeping it from getting out of control.

The aroma coming out the airlock is very sweet and almost fruity. The whole room smells like it.

Anyway in a couple of days I’ll start adding the dextrose, and then hopefully I’ll finish with a nice low FG. I’ll probably ramp the temp a couple of degrees when it’s finishing to help it along. I think that’s the beauty of the TILT, being able to see what’s happening throughout the process.


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## kadmium

Cloud Surfer said:


> Fermentation is running nicely. It’s dropped from 1.115 to 1.075 in less than 48 hours. I’m having fun with the TILT, checking the SG every few hours.
> 
> The airlock is running real hard, but no signs of impending danger. I have a blow off tube on standby, but doesn’t look like I’ll need it. I wonder if excess temperature is the main cause of explosive fermentation. I’ve got it running at 18C which might be keeping it from getting out of control.
> 
> The aroma coming out the airlock is very sweet and almost fruity. The whole room smells like it.
> 
> Anyway in a couple of days I’ll start adding the dextrose, and then hopefully I’ll finish with a nice low FG. I’ll probably ramp the temp a couple of degrees when it’s finishing to help it along. I think that’s the beauty of the TILT, being able to see what’s happening throughout the process.


Yeah tilts are good, I have mine linked to a Raspberry Pi that lets Brewfather know what I'm doing. Just bear in mind that it is really only an indicator of fermentation activity and not a true reading of SG. It is mostly inaccurate during active fermentation due to co2 bubbles moving it around, as well as Krausen distorting it's reading. Take it for more of a picture of what's happening, rather than using it as an absolute reading of SG.

But they are very useful that's for sure!

Glad to hear it's going along nicely. Also, blowoff is more a situation of how vigorous fermentation is, as well as the yeast strain. Some produce huge, explosive fermentations (Nottingham I'm looking at you) and others are more mild mannered. I have a Porter down using 'Denny's favourite' (my go to for stouts / porters) and it's a well behaved yeast. I used Imperial Dry Hop (hybrid Conan yeast) and it blew itself out of the starter flask!


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## Cloud Surfer

Thanks, yes I read the TILT gets upset during fermentation, so I’m using it more as a trend indicator of how things are going.

So far I’m happy with this M42 yeast. The room smells great from the aroma through the airlock.


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## Cloud Surfer

I’ve been very happy with how calm and smooth the ferment has been. I will definitely use this M42 yeast again. I think the secret was definitely pitching 4 packets.

I added the dextrose on day 4 which brings the OG to 1.121. The SG charged down to the magic RIS number of 1.030 in just 5 days of fermenting, but has seemed to hit the wall today. Airlock has completely stopped and SG is at 1.029. That’s 12.1% ABV, which is at the upper end of this yeast range, so maybe they’ve given up. If I could get just another few points out of them I’ll be very proud of them.

I’m letting the temperature free rise to 20C and I’ll hold it there for another few weeks, so plenty of time left before transfer for conditioning.


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## Cloud Surfer

I transferred the RIS to keg today after 3 weeks in Primary. FG has been steady at 1.027 for over a week. That's about where I thought it would end, given that's now 12.3% ABV. I got to use my pressure transfer set up and keg for the first time. The whole process felt a lot calmer than previous transfers I've done, using the CO2 system to keep oxygen out of the beer and containers.

So I filled the keg to overflowing and purged the headspace a few more times, then I put it into a fridge at 10C. I'll leave it there now for at least the next 3 months, and then pressure transfer to another keg which will have the priming sugar and a small amount of yeast in it. Then I'll use a pressure gun to fill bottles from the bottling keg. I cut 20mm off the liquid tube to keep the beer as clear as possible going into the bottling keg.

It has lots of roast flavours, coffee, chocolate and vanilla. It doesn't taste overly sweet or bitter at all, as the big alcohol is holding it all together and keeping it balanced. It has great length, I can still taste it 30 minutes after a sip. I can't believe it's possible to make this stuff at home.


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## kadmium

Nicely done. Any reason you're conditioning at 10c?


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## Cloud Surfer

Personally I would have liked to condition at 12C to 14C, but 10C is as warm as the fridge gets, so close enough. Condition it too cold and the beer can go to sleep. Anyway a constant temperature is just as important over long periods, so a constant 10C will be ok. You know all this stuff. Did you have a different idea?


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## kadmium

Cloud Surfer said:


> Personally I would have liked to condition at 12C to 14C, but 10C is as warm as the fridge gets, so close enough. Condition it too cold and the beer can go to sleep. Anyway a constant temperature is just as important over long periods, so a constant 10C will be ok. You know all this stuff. Did you have a different idea?


Nah I was genuinely curious cause you have experience in wine making etc I thought it was a special temp for something hahah. 

It's a solid plan!


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## Cloud Surfer

I'll tell you what a solid plan was. Pouring the test sample into the glass for a photo, and taking a sip. Then drinking the whole thing on an empty stomach before lunch.


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## kadmium

Cloud Surfer said:


> I'll tell you what a solid plan was. Pouring the test sample into the glass for a photo, and taking a sip. Then drinking the whole thing on an empty stomach before lunch.


Thats always how my brew days go. 

"Hmm, better pull a sample from the beer in the fermenter. For science. 

And better Czech my Pilsner out thats lagering. Oh and also better check how the cider is aging... oops I missed my hop additions. Better have another beer while I ponder why that happened..."


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## Cloud Surfer

Hey that's sweet. So there's no rules if it's for science.


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## Tubbsy9876

So I've made one similar to this as a partial mash with a bunch of specialty grains and 3 cans of Coopers LME (Light, Amber & Dark). I think i may have gone too hard on the roast barley, but I'm hoping 4-6 months in the cupboard smooths it out to a winner!


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## Cloud Surfer

How much roast barley did you use? I used 500g and 250g of chocolate malt. At this stage I think that’s worked very well with the 12.3% ABV to maintain everything in balance. If the ABV was on the low side for a RIS I think it would taste too burnt. Though as you say, time generally fixes these things.


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## Tubbsy9876

Cloud Surfer said:


> How much roast barley did you use? I used 500g and 250g of chocolate malt. At this stage I think that’s worked very well with the 12.3% ABV to maintain everything in balance. If the ABV was on the low side for a RIS I think it would taste too burnt. Though as you say, time generally fixes these things.


I think i used about 300g roast barley plus 200g chocolate. Plus the dark tin. Abv is aboutv10.5%


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## Cloud Surfer

So today was bottling day. The RIS has been sitting in keg at 10C for three and a half months now, and I decided that it's time to move it along.

I prepared a CO2 purged bottling keg. I used 115g of dextrose boiled in 115ml of water, aiming for 2.2 volumes of CO2. Cooled that and poured it into the keg. Then rehydrated 4g of CBC-1 yeast in 40ml of water and added that to the keg. Then pressure transferred the RIS into the bottling keg. I upended the keg several times to give everything a good mix in. 

I cut 20mm off the liquid tube in the conditioning keg, and that left 200ml of RIS behind, so everything going into the bottling keg was crystal clear. There was a small layer of sediment left over in the conditioning keg.

Then I used a bottling gun to purge the bottles with CO2 and then fill. I ended up with 25 bottles, plus a glass full, which was absolutely awesome. Anyway, here's some photos of the action.


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## Nullnvoid

I have never heard of this yeast before. I have a RIS that's been in the barrel for a long long time (due to the pandemic I couldn't get it) so this yeast might be the key for when I bottle.


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## Cloud Surfer

I’ve had all sorts of trouble getting my high alcohol beers carbonated. Even after months of warm conditioning in the bottle most have no carbonation at all. So given I pitched the yeast for this beer over four months ago and it’s over 12% ABV, there’s no way this one is going to carb without some help. I actually plan to add yeast at bottling to all my bulk conditioned and high alcohol beers from now on as an insurance policy.

There’s a few bottling yeast candidates. The CBC-1 seems ideal for the job. This is the first time I’ve used it so we shall see what happens when I pop a bottle in 4 weeks.


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## MHB

Safe Lager 34/70 is very good for bottle conditioning if you are inside its alcohol tolerance (<11%).
Very clean and neutral, flocks very well and isn't prone to throwing autolysis flavours.
Mark


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## Nullnvoid

Cloud Surfer said:


> I’ve had all sorts of trouble getting my high alcohol beers carbonated. Even after months of warm conditioning in the bottle most have no carbonation at all. So given I pitched the yeast for this beer over four months ago and it’s over 12% ABV, there’s no way this one is going to carb without some help. I actually plan to add yeast at bottling to all my bulk conditioned and high alcohol beers from now on as an insurance policy.
> 
> There’s a few bottling yeast candidates. The CBC-1 seems ideal for the job. This is the first time I’ve used it so we shall see what happens when I pop a bottle in 4 weeks.



Please come back with results. I need to source bottles before I can bottle mine. I had a heap but they are now full of a Westy 12 clone!


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## Grmblz

Nullnvoid said:


> Please come back with results. I need to source bottles before I can bottle mine. I had a heap but they are now full of a Westy 12 clone!


What sort of bottles are you after?


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## Nullnvoid

Grmblz said:


> What sort of bottles are you after?



Not fussy really, 750ml glass, but you know decently thick glass as they will be aging for 3-5 years (possibly more).

Just a decent bottle really


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## Grmblz

I put all my big beers in champagne bottles, and store under the house away from any sunlight and fairly stable temp. Happy to supply what you need (my wife is a champagne bottle producing force of epic proportions, the number of bottles that is, not her) 
Probably too expensive to freight but if you're interested we could put a call out to the members to see if anyone is travelling from close to me to close to you, depends on your location of course, I get to Sydney occasionally, Melbourne rarely.


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## Nullnvoid

Grmblz said:


> I put all my big beers in champagne bottles, and store under the house away from any sunlight and fairly stable temp. Happy to supply what you need (my wife is a champagne bottle producing force of epic proportions, the number of bottles that is, not her)
> Probably too expensive to freight but if you're interested we could put a call out to the members to see if anyone is travelling from close to me to close to you, depends on your location of course, I get to Sydney occasionally, Melbourne rarely.



Ohh that's very kind of you. Might be a bit of a logistical challenge, but if anyone does read this and is coming back and forth then sounds good!


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## Grmblz

Sooo, you're in North London, UK?


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## Cloud Surfer

Nullnvoid said:


> Please come back with results. I need to source bottles before I can bottle mine. I had a heap but they are now full of a Westy 12 clone!


I have to do a Westy 12 clone. I’ve got a Rochefort 10 conditioning in keg that I can’t wait to try. It’s still some months away though.


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## Nullnvoid

Grmblz said:


> Sooo, you're in North London, UK?


Yep, she says "Hi"


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## Cloud Surfer

Nullnvoid said:


> Please come back with results. I need to source bottles before I can bottle mine. I had a heap but they are now full of a Westy 12 clone!


So just to let you know how this turned out. I opened a bottle of my RIS after 4 weeks in bottle. It’s very well carbonated. Given the beer is 12.3% ABV, I think the CBC-1 yeast have done well to carbonate it up. This is the first high ABV beer I’ve managed to get carbed, with all before being totally flat. So it’s going to be standard procedure from now on to add this yeast at bottling for the high ABV beers.

I’m about to bottle an 8.3% IIPA and I figure I might as well add some CBC-1 to that as well.


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## Nullnvoid

Cloud Surfer said:


> So just to let you know how this turned out. I opened a bottle of my RIS after 4 weeks in bottle. It’s very well carbonated. Given the beer is 12.3% ABV, I think the CBC-1 yeast have done well to carbonate it up. This is the first high ABV beer I’ve managed to get carbed, with all before being totally flat. So it’s going to be standard procedure from now on to add this yeast at bottling for the high ABV beers.
> 
> I’m about to bottle an 8.3% IIPA and I figure I might as well add some CBC-1 to that as well.



That's brilliant! I better source some for my RIS. Put it in the barrel a couple of weeks ago and so it will be handy for when I bottle.


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## Nullnvoid

Cloud Surfer said:


> I prepared a CO2 purged bottling keg. I used 115g of dextrose boiled in 115ml of water, aiming for 2.2 volumes of CO2. Cooled that and poured it into the keg. Then rehydrated 4g of CBC-1 yeast in 40ml of water and added that to the keg. Then pressure transferred the RIS into the bottling keg. I upended the keg several times to give everything a good mix in.



Finally getting around to this. Got me some CBC-1. Trying to use Brewfather to work out the amount of dextrose but it wildly differs from yours. How did you come up with this amount of dextrose/water?


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## Cloud Surfer

I used the Brewers Friend beer priming calculator to work out how much dextrose to use. The amount of water doesn’t matter, I just use a 1:1 ratio because the dextrose dissolves well in that amount of water.


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## Cloud Surfer

So just to continue the story, I entered this into my first beer competition today. It came third in its class, dark and strong, and was best Imperial Stout of show. I’m quite pleased with that given it’s a fairly good beer, but I’ve learnt so much since I made this one and am making better now. The judging feedback is the best thing, and I can use it to keep improving.


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## Thzxykraq

Hi,
I'm going to be giving this recipe a go fairly soon, just waiting on the yeast to arrive. I plan on bottling it though into a bunch of spare 335ml to 375ml leftovers. The original coopers basic recipe for the RIS says use 1 carbo drop per bottle, would that work with this recipe? 

Also how important is the Candi-180, I'm pretty good at melting sugars for cooking, so was going to try my own based on Homemade Candi Syrup | The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog

Thanks for your help!


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## Cloud Surfer

One carbonation drop will be fine in a small bottle. I’ve found using the CBC-1 yeast at bottling is one of the key steps in making this a solid beer, and I wouldn’t skip that part.

The Candi syrup isn’t needed at all, I just add it for more complexity. I’m doing all grain RIS now and still experimenting with various D180 and D240 additions. I would never encourage using your own home made syrup in something like a Belgian Dark Strong Ale where that ingredient is so important. But in a RIS with all the big flavours, you should be ok with home made.

Let us know how you go with your big beer journey.


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## Grmblz

From ^ "I would never encourage using your own home made syrup in something like a Belgian Dark Strong Ale where that ingredient is so important" 
I couldn't agree more.
Spend a month with homemade recipes, then when you think you have it covered buy and compare with the real thing.
I know the real stuff looks expensive, but when you look at your base cost, it's really not that much, and if you can actually come up with a process that duplicates the real thing please let me know.


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## mynameisrodney

Cloud Surfer said:


> One carbonation drop will be fine in a small bottle. I’ve found using the CBC-1 yeast at bottling is one of the key steps in making this a solid beer, and I wouldn’t skip that part.



I need to get some of this yeast to fix my belgian strong dark ale which is dead flat after 6 months. In your experience how long does CBC-1 take to carb up for a ~11% beer? Or not sure as you don't check when young?

Sorry for off topic.


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## Thzxykraq

Thanks Cloud Surfer, ill let you know!
Just on the CBC-1 though, I only have access to the basic coopers fermeter tub at the moment, but I'm giving it a go, I'm a little confused, do I add the CBC-1 to the bottle when I bottle, or just before?


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## Grmblz

I'll assume you are going to use a bottling wand, so 15min before bottling sprinkle the yeast onto the beer and just before bottling give it a gentle stir, more of a swirl just to distribute the yeast, you could also add the priming sugar at the same time, saves priming every bottle, google "bulk priming"


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## Cloud Surfer

mynameisrodney said:


> I need to get some of this yeast to fix my belgian strong dark ale which is dead flat after 6 months. In your experience how long does CBC-1 take to carb up for a ~11% beer? Or not sure as you don't check when young?
> 
> Sorry for off topic.


The CBC-1 carbs up my big beers real fast. I’ve cracked a few 12% to 14% beers just 7 days after bottling and they are always fully carbonated. Because I mostly do bigger beers and they get bulk conditioned for long periods before bottling, I couldn’t do what I do without the CBC-1. I’ve got a fridge full of CBC-1 sachets. You could say I’m a bit of a fan of this yeast.


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## Cloud Surfer

Thzxykraq said:


> Thanks Cloud Surfer, ill let you know!
> Just on the CBC-1 though, I only have access to the basic coopers fermeter tub at the moment, but I'm giving it a go, I'm a little confused, do I add the CBC-1 to the bottle when I bottle, or just before?


This is the way I do it. I put my priming sugar and 4g of rehydrated CBC-1 into a keg. I draw the air out of the keg with my vacuum pump and pressure fill it with CO2. Then I pressure transfer my beer from its bulk conditioning keg into the bottling keg and mix the sugar and yeast with the beer. Then I hook the bottling keg up to my bottling station to bottle.

But basically, you want to mix the yeast with your beer just before you bottle, and do it in a way that minimises oxidation.


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## Cloud Surfer

This is the bottling station I made with vacuum pump and CO2 tank to try eliminate oxygen in my bottling process.


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## Grmblz

Very neat and tidy, nice ^.
The vacuum pump is a new one for me, I fill my kegs with sanitiser, then use the co2 from a sealed ferment to blow out the water, end up with a sanitised O2 free co2 filled keg. I wonder how much O2 is left after a vacuum session? Do you do multiple cycles or just the one?


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## Cloud Surfer

Grmblz said:


> Very neat and tidy, nice ^.
> The vacuum pump is a new one for me, I fill my kegs with sanitiser, then use the co2 from a sealed ferment to blow out the water, end up with a sanitised O2 free co2 filled keg. I wonder how much O2 is left after a vacuum session? Do you do multiple cycles or just the one?


When I purge my kegs I only do one cycle. First draw all the air out with the vacuum pump, then pressure fill it with CO2.


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## clickeral

Cloud Surfer said:


> When I purge my kegs I only do one cycle. First draw all the air out with the vacuum pump, then pressure fill it with CO2.



To what pressure of vaccum do you pull to? and got any more details on the vacuum pump?


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## Cloud Surfer

clickeral said:


> To what pressure of vaccum do you pull to? and got any more details on the vacuum pump?


I decided not to get that sophisticated with the pump by adding a gauge. When I’m bottling I give the pump a 5 second run, by which time I find it hard to pull the bottle off the counter flow filler, so there’s quite a vacuum in the bottle. With the keg I run the pump until the lid looks like it’s about to suck inside the keg, and it’s groaning under the vacuum. So nothing too scientific.

I got my pump off eBay. I think I got the smallest capacity, but it still generates a huge vacuum, and overkill for what I’m using it for.


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## Grmblz

My only thought was "what could possibly go wrong!" Although in this case an implosion isn't going to be as catastrophic as an explosion, I think the spring loaded lid might act as a reverse PRV but it might be a close run thing with cheap Chinesium kegs.


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## Thzxykraq

Hey All,

Well,. had my brew day yesterday to try this one and even with "improvising" with the equipment I have.

Had a bit of difficulty keeping around 71degrees on the induction top, especially with a electric thermometer stuck on Fahrenheit for some reason, and had to sit it overnight to cool as I had it too warm (27C) to pitch the yeast in, but measured it this morning at bang on 18C and pitched in the four packs of M42. Read the OG which looks like 1.10 (is that right?). So at the moment fairly happy as this is only my second attempt at brewing. I guess now I will let it sit for 4 weeks in the coopers fermenter I have?

Hey thanks for the tips on priming, so I'm thinking 10g/L of dextrose and a packet of CBC-1 like you said should be fine at bottling time?

Also the only modification I was planning to make with this RIS was adding bourbon soaked out staves. I've steamed the staves and had them soaking in bourbon for about 2 weeks now, I'm wondering how/when I should add them. That is should I wait till the final gravity is stable and put them in for a week, or do I need to think about getting the wort into a second fermenter and then adding them, and then how long should I leave them in. Also should I pour in the 100-200ml of bourbon I've soaked them in.

Seems a LOT of different ways/options on this but was reading a bit off of the brooklyn black ops clone here Russian Imperial Stout Clones & Brewing Tips - Brew Your Own but my 

The original plan was wait for a stable FG, add them and let sit for a week ( I guess on the yeast cake) and then add the CBC-1 and dextrose and bottle.


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## Cloud Surfer

Good work on the brew.

To me, it looks like your OG is more like 1.095. But I could be seeing your photo wrong.

10g/L of dextrose will get you over 3.0 volumes of CO2 which is a bit high for the style. I aim for around 2.2 CO2, which is 6g/L dextrose. In my 19L bottling batches I use 4g of the CBC-1, which is over pitching it a bit. So depending how much you are bottling, I wouldn’t use the entire pack. BTW, don’t add the dextrose and yeast to your fermentor if that’s what you alluded to in your post. Add it to a fresh bottling bucket, transfer the RIS on top of it and then bottle.

Wood staves take a lot longer to add flavour than chips. I’m just starting out experimenting with staves and will have them sit for the full 3 months I bulk condition my RIS. If you have no way to bulk condition without oxidising your beer, I would throw them into your primary as soon as you’re close to FG to give them the maximum time on the beer before you bottle.

You could throw in the Bourbon, there’s no rules and it’s your beer to experiment with. It might be a nice addition. I try all sorts of stuff, and if it doesn’t work I don’t do it again. But you’ll never know if you don’t try.


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## Thzxykraq

Thanks mate!

Glad you mentioned that about transferring to a bottling bucket, as I thought it was on top in the fermenter. Guess I better go by a siphon pump and bucket now!

I'm wondering now if its a better idea to buy a carboy, transfer the beer to that and pop in the staves and bottle it up for 5 months, and then rack to a bucket with sugar and yeast and bottle. I guess I would have to release any CO2 a couple of times in that 5 months though.

And your right I was reading my hydrometer wrong, it was 1.095 which I guess is still good.


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## Cloud Surfer

One of the main reasons I think secondary fermentation/conditioning has gone out of style is because people worked out that the oxidation it causes to your beer if not handled properly does more harm to your beer than the benefits of the secondary process. 

I have my process now with pressure transfers, vacuum pump and CO2 that I can transfer and age in kegs completely free of oxygen. You’ll probably have to come up with a system to minimise oxygen as much as possible if you want to add a carboy/conditioning phase. Having said that, if there’s one beer that doesn’t mind a tiny bit of oxidation to mature it’s a RIS.


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## Thzxykraq

Yeah I looked at your setup, and tried to understand how it worked 

Sounds like I'm going to be better off siphoning to bucketed onto the CBC-1 and the dextrose then immediately bottle it. Ill just toss the staves in the fermenter this time


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## Thzxykraq

Seems to be going well so far, dumped the dextrose 5days in, 2 weeks now and did a FG test and it's sitting 1.024. will give it 1 more week and drop in the bourbon, tastes good even now, just a little bitter, but expect 6 months in the bottles will mellow that


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## Cloud Surfer

Yes it’s bitter to start with, but rounds out with some age.


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