# Hop Stands in Beersmith



## BKBrews (1/12/16)

I want to start experimenting with hop stands, to really get some intense flavours and aromas out of the hops. I've done some big dry hops and experimented with all late hops (5min of boil or later) but I want more. I'm finding they smell and taste great all through fermentation but by the time they're kegged it's scrubbed.

So my question is, how do you all calculate your hop stand hops in beersmith? I will be doing hop stands at 72 degrees, so I don't want them included as IBU additions, but beersmith doesn't seem to accomodate this. 

My plan is a pacific ale clone for my family for Christmas Day. I use a grainfather and in beersmith I have my whirlpool time as 30min above 85c. I've done a few tests over the last few brews and it always takes 25 - 30min to fall from boiling point to 85c after flameout. My schedule for this plan will be something like:

1. 11 IBU @ 5
2. 10 IBU 25min whirlpool (added 5min after flameout and wort cooled to <84 degrees within 30min)
3. 40g galaxy added to kettle when wort reaches 72 degrees. Held @ 72 degrees for 30min, stirred frequently.
4. 50g (or more) dry hop

How does everyone else do it? Do you even do it? It's not such a big deal not being able to add it to my recipe, but it would be nice.


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## Rocker1986 (1/12/16)

Maybe just list it as a steep at 0 minutes? It will still include in the recipe but won't contribute any IBUs


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## BKBrews (1/12/16)

Rocker1986 said:


> Maybe just list it as a steep at 0 minutes? It will still include in the recipe but won't contribute any IBUs


Mmmmmm I probably should have thought of that - good thinking! 

Regardless, surely they have to add the hop stand option soon? Would be similar to the dry hop option, but instead of number of days it would just be time and temperature.


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## peteru (2/12/16)

Having never used the software...

Is there an option to treat those hops as a no-chill cube addition?


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## BKBrews (2/12/16)

peteru said:


> Having never used the software...
> 
> Is there an option to treat those hops as a no-chill cube addition?


I've never no chilled, so I don't know exactly how that all works, but reading through the beersmith 'manual' it appears that the whirlpool function was upgraded in the latest software for people who do this. So no, it's not really covering what I'm looking to do.


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## Danscraftbeer (2/12/16)

I add it as whirlpool for 1 or 2 minute with the notes added to that addition of how long and at what temp. Or just make the explanation in the notes. Only because It can look confusing on the design page and plus the software gets it confused when using the timer. The hop stand comes last but the timer will tell you to add them all at flame out.
I think it could do Brad Smiths head in trying to add hop stand options but maybe one day.


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## BKBrews (2/12/16)

Danscraftbeer said:


> I add it as whirlpool for 1 or 2 minute with the notes added to that addition of how long and at what temp. Or just make the explanation in the notes. Only because It can look confusing on the design page and plus the software gets it confused when using the timer. The hop stand comes last but the timer will tell you to add them all at flame out.
> I think it could do Brad Smiths head in trying to add hop stand options but maybe one day.


Ahhh I never thought about timers and all of that in the software - I only use it for recipe formulation then I do my own time keeping. 

Have you done this sort of schedule before mate? I note that beersmith puts the end of isomerization at 85 degrees but from my other research, some say it stops at about 79 degrees.


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## Coodgee (2/12/16)

I find that 20 grams of galaxy at 20 mins, 20 grams at 2 mins and a big dry hop of 7 grams a litre gets it very close to stone and wood PA


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## Danscraftbeer (2/12/16)

BKBrews said:


> Ahhh I never thought about timers and all of that in the software - I only use it for recipe formulation then I do my own time keeping.
> 
> Have you done this sort of schedule before mate? I note that beersmith puts the end of isomerization at 85 degrees but from my other research, some say it stops at about 79 degrees.


Yeah I use hop stands often. Its guess work but the variables are small because the isomerization is very little. 
I suspect that a hop stand even when done between 70 to 85c will still add some IBU's but its only like 1 to 3 IBU's maybe? That's just my hunch actually so that's why I plug it in at say 1min whirl if its 20min stand, 2min if its 40min or longer stand. I'm not precise about the temp but by my chefs discretion its between 70 to 85c when I add the hop stand addition. 
I'm pretty confident that the end result is bang on with the IBU calculations. Hope that helps.


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## peteru (2/12/16)

As long as the estimated IBU aligns with what you expect and what you taste, the precise number is not that important. It's not like you are going to get a speeding fine for going 2 IBU over the posted limit for a style. You'll get away with a lot if the final beer is well balanced, which after all is the point.

Most of the beers I brew are very much an intuition thing. I keep a very rough set of notes for each batch that I brew. If the results are so spectacular that I feel I need to brew the same thing again, I will make a permanent copy of the notes and then the next time I try to brew that recipe I will be more methodical and document in detail. The relaxed approach makes brewing more fun, rather than making it feel like a job. I take the same approach to cooking, make it up as I go and if the results are great, write some notes while I remember.


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## BKBrews (2/12/16)

peteru said:


> As long as the estimated IBU aligns with what you expect and what you taste, the precise number is not that important. It's not like you are going to get a speeding fine for going 2 IBU over the posted limit for a style. You'll get away with a lot if the final beer is well balanced, which after all is the point.
> 
> Most of the beers I brew are very much an intuition thing. I keep a very rough set of notes for each batch that I brew. If the results are so spectacular that I feel I need to brew the same thing again, I will make a permanent copy of the notes and then the next time I try to brew that recipe I will be more methodical and document in detail. The relaxed approach makes brewing more fun, rather than making it feel like a job. I take the same approach to cooking, make it up as I go and if the results are great, write some notes while I remember.


I hear you. I'm not so worried about accurately measuring the IBU addition, I'm more worried about replicability in my recipe design. I just want to be able to add it to beersmith for future reference on what was done. But I've got a few pretty good ideas from this thread and I'll be trying the 2min whirlpool addition but adding for 40min at 72 degrees. Can't wait to give it a whirl (pardon the pun).


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## husky (2/12/16)

Beersmith 2 has a steep/whirlpool function that I have started using and it add IBU all be it minimal. It uses a 40% hop utilisation factor(which I think you can adjust).
I use it for all my IPA's and APAs as I like ALOT of flavour and aroma. So far working really well. My process for an IPA is generally a small 60 min addition, a big 10 min addition and then a massive addition @ 80 degrees in whirlpool for a varying time(usually 30 mins for an IPA). Definitely imparts intense flavour that I have never had before. I make lots of nots and even plot the temp profile for the post boil cooling to compare between batches. I leave the whirlpool hops in even as I cool post whirlpool to pitching temps, it all adds flavour and some IBU.
Speaking to some breweries that make IPA's I like they all say you get IBU's from whirlpool and even the dry hop.
Make lots of notes and adjust times and temps of the whirlpool. Personally a long hop stand at 80 deg is working for me.


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## BKBrews (2/12/16)

husky said:


> Beersmith 2 has a steep/whirlpool function that I have started using and it add IBU all be it minimal. It uses a 40% hop utilisation factor(which I think you can adjust).
> I use it for all my IPA's and APAs as I like ALOT of flavour and aroma. So far working really well. My process for an IPA is generally a small 60 min addition, a big 10 min addition and then a massive addition @ 80 degrees in whirlpool for a varying time(usually 30 mins for an IPA). Definitely imparts intense flavour that I have never had before. I make lots of nots and even plot the temp profile for the post boil cooling to compare between batches. I leave the whirlpool hops in even as I cool post whirlpool to pitching temps, it all adds flavour and some IBU.
> Speaking to some breweries that make IPA's I like they all say you get IBU's from whirlpool and even the dry hop.
> Make lots of notes and adjust times and temps of the whirlpool. Personally a long hop stand at 80 deg is working for me.


Yeah, I use the steep/whirlpool function in beersmith for my flameout additions. I basically turn off the boil, let the wort settle for 5min, add my hops, then let it naturally drop in temp to 85 degrees or below (takes 25 - 30min in the grainfather). So for this reason I calculate this addition as a 25min steep/whirlpool in beersmith.

Research on whether it adds IBU under 85 degrees is pretty all over the shop, nothing seems to be conclusive. I'm going to try the 72 degree hop stand for 40min anyway and see what happens


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (2/12/16)

BKBrews said:


> Ahhh I never thought about timers and all of that in the software - I only use it for recipe formulation then I do my own time keeping.
> 
> Have you done this sort of schedule before mate? I note that beersmith puts the end of isomerization at 85 degrees but from my other research, some say it stops at about 79 degrees.


 40 g of galaxy steeped for 30 min at 72 oC will contribute about 60 mg of IAA assuming your kettle utilisation rate is in the normal range. You didn't give a wort volume so I haven't calculated IBUs.


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (2/12/16)

BKBrews said:


> Research on whether it adds IBU under 85 degrees is pretty all over the shop, nothing seems to be conclusive. I'm going to try the 72 degree hop stand for 40min anyway and see what happens


For a review of hop utilisation kinetics, you could read the thread on the subject here: Improving precision in IBU calculations.

I would note that the reason I did this work was because Beersmith's calculator kept giving me lousy results (and because Mark (MHB) asked me to).


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## BKBrews (2/12/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> 40 g of galaxy steeped for 30 min at 72 oC will contribute about 60 mg of IAA assuming your kettle utilisation rate is in the normal range. You didn't give a wort volume so I haven't calculated IBUs.


I'm aiming for post boil volume of 28L (31 pre boil).


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## BKBrews (2/12/16)

Lyrebird_Cycles said:


> For a review of hop utilisation kinetics, you could read the thread on the subject here: Improving precision in IBU calculations.
> 
> I would note that the reason I did this work was because Beersmith's calculator kept giving me lousy results (and because Mark (MHB) asked me to).


You tagged the duplicate thread 

I'll have a search soon and find it! Thanks!


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## wobbly (2/12/16)

From my understanding if you want hop flavor/aroma without an associated increase in bitterness from your post boil/whirlpool hop additions then you should at the end of your boil remove your boil hops assuming you have used a hop sock or similar and chill your wort as quickly as possible so as to stop further utilization of the hops already in the boil to around 75C with an immersion chiller before you add your flavor/aroma hops and then let them steep/stand for your proffered time because below about 80C you will get little or no utilization 

My 2c worth from what I understand to be an accepted practice after talking with the head brewer at Matso's in Broome

Wobbly


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (2/12/16)

BKBrews said:


> I'm aiming for post boil volume of 28L (31 pre boil).


Then you'll get an increase of a shade over 2 IBU from the Galaxy stand.



BKBrews said:


> You tagged the duplicate thread
> 
> I'll have a search soon and find it! Thanks!


Yeah sorry, here's the right one: IBU calculation thread


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## wobbly (2/12/16)

husky said:


> Beersmith 2 has a steep/whirlpool function that I have started using and it add IBU all be it minimal. It uses a 40% hop utilisation factor(which I think you can adjust).


The standard steep/whirlpool utilization in my version of BS was set at 50% based on a steep temperature of 90C and as a consequence it adds IBU to the recipe. You can adjust this utilization factor by going to Tools- Options- Bitterness and change the default figure to what ever value you have in mind. My search of literature doesn't detail hop utilization at various temperatures but it would be fair to assume that the lower the temperature the lower the utilization so I have set my BS value to 30% (best guess) for hop stands at 75C.

This article from BYO talks a bit about flavor vs bitterness from different temperature hop stands with out detailing any specific utilization values https://byo.com/hops/item/2808-hop-stands

Wobbly


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## Lyrebird_Cycles (2/12/16)

wobbly said:


> My search of literature doesn't detail hop utilization at various temperatures but it would be fair to assume that the lower the temperature the lower the utilization


See thread referenced above.


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