# Low Mashing Efficiency - Only 35%



## BOG (8/10/07)

Hi,

I've done my 2nd AG yesterday and I got a very low Mash Efficiency of only 35%.

The receipe has a pre boil gravity of 1.079 and I ended up with only 1.040. I was planning for a big beer.

The mashing was right on temp at 70deg for 45Min. Batch Sparge and ended up with exactly (+/- 500ml) of the pre boil volume. (3 stage mash). 
The software I'm using is BeerSmith.
The grain (Joe White) was fresh cracked.

The mash strike water was right on, sparge was right on. Everything should have been right.

Here's my question,

Assuming that all the obvious measures that the software produces (temp, water valume etc) are correct what other variables can I focus on to get the efficiency up to the predicted 75%.

Thanks in advance.


BOG


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## Stuster (8/10/07)

It's certainly a learning curve getting efficiency right, but 35% is still far too low.  It should be fixable with some fiddling. Just a few ideas that might be helpful.

Who crushed your grain? Did it looked like any grains were still whole?

Did you stir well when you mashed in, and after adding any sparge water? Did you taste the grains after? Were they sweet?

If you could post your recipe as well, that might help.


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## Ross (8/10/07)

Can we have a list of actual ingredients & volumes made?

Cheers Ross


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## BOG (8/10/07)

here it is.

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Bog's Irish Red Ale
Brewer: Brian O'Gallagher
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Irish Red Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 15.00 L 
Boil Size: 15.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.079 SG
Estimated Color: 18.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 23.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU 
2.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (3.0Grain 38.8 % 
2.00 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (1.8 SRMGrain 38.8 % 
1.00 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 19.4 % 
0.05 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (381.0 SRM) Grain 1.0 % 
0.05 kg Crystal (Joe White) (72.0 SRM) Grain 1.0 % 
0.05 kg Wheat, Roasted (Joe White) (750.0 SRM) Grain 1.0 % 
24.00 gm Fuggles [4.50%] (60 min) Hops 12.7 IBU 
30.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (15 min) Hops 7.0 IBU 
30.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (5 min) Hops 3.9 IBU 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 5.15 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time 
Mash In Add 12.26 L of water at 77.6 C 70.0 C 45 min 
Mash Out Add 4.09 L of water at 95.1 C 75.6 C 10 min 


Notes:
------


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## Stuster (8/10/07)

How much sparge water did you use?


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## Tseay (8/10/07)

Just an observation, I think there may be a problem in the original calculations; Whilst I am not familiar with beersmith, it's stating a total grain weight of 5.5 kg yet adding the individual weights grain weight comes to 6.5kg.


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## Stuster (8/10/07)

The last few grain amounts are 0.05kg. Think it adds up to 5.15kg myself.


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## troydo (8/10/07)

2.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (3.0Grain 38.8 %
2.00 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (1.8 SRMGrain 38.8 %
1.00 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 19.4 %
0.05 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (381.0 SRM) Grain 1.0 %
0.05 kg Crystal (Joe White) (72.0 SRM) Grain 1.0 %
0.05 kg Wheat, Roasted (Joe White) (750.0 SRM) Grain 1.0 % 
= 5.15 kg


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## AndrewQLD (8/10/07)

For that size grain bill you don't have anywhere near enough water to get any kind of decent extraction, if you take into account the grain absorbtion you will only be getting about 11 lt back out.
Also your recipe says boil size 15 lt and batch size 15 lt. Batch size is what you expect to get into your fermenter after it has boiled. Looks like you need to adjust your specifics in Beersmith so the program can clculate the water requirements properly.
Oh and if you boiled 11 lt for 90 minutes you would only be left with a couple of litres.

However If your brewing a standard size beer (23lt) then 1.040 is about right for the preboil volume of around 30 lt for that sized grain bill
Cheers
Andrew


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## Tseay (8/10/07)

Stuster said:


> The last few grain amounts are 0.05kg. Think it adds up to 5.15kg myself.




Ah= the mystery of the decimal point- no wonder the bridge fell down


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## Stuster (8/10/07)

Tseay said:


> Ah= the mystery of the decimal point- no wonder the bridge fell down



:lol:


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## BOG (8/10/07)

Stuster said:


> How much sparge water did you use?



6 Litres which brought it up to 15Litre pre-boil volume.

BOG


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## BOG (8/10/07)

Thanks for the responses.

The sparge was 6Litres so total boil was 15 Litres in.

Total Grain weight is 5.15kg. The smaller amounts are for colour really.

90 minutes boil reduces it by 1.5L to 13.5 into Fermenter.

I think Andrew has the key with the batch and boil volumes being the same.
I'll adjust the software and see what happens. 


BOG


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## Stuster (8/10/07)

Yep, that's going to lower your efficiency a fair bit only using 22L of water in all for 5kg of grain. I'd still imagine there's more going on, but once you add more water you can see what else you might need to do. 

If it helps, I looked back at my brew notes, and a recent beer used 5.15kg of grain.  I mashed in with 15L of water, added 8L of mash out water, and sparged with 12L of water. 25L into the kettle, 20L after the boil with an OG of 1062. I agree you should use more water, but I think you might need to crush more or stir more as well.


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## braufrau (8/10/07)

Did you remember to stir at each water addition? I got a low efficiency (~50%) when I forgot to stir the sparge water in.


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## Adamt (8/10/07)

Make sure your thermometer is properly calibrated, 100C in boiling water, 0C in ice/water slurry. You'll kick yourself if its out by 5C.


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## BOG (8/10/07)

Sorry Stuster now I'm really confused.

How can using more water get me more sugars into the boil?

The first batch run was nearly black. I guess it had most of the sugars then. It was about 5Litres I suppose. I didn't measure it exactly.
The second and third was alot lighter. In all I put 21Litres into the Mash Tun and got 15Litres out. 6Litres remained in 5.15Kg of grain. These numbers seem about right.

So long as I got the mashing temp right. Which was spot on 70deg C. And mashed for long enough (45Min) I should have got close to the predicted number. (1.079) But I didn't. I got half that. (1.040) It's way out.

Does the initital mash water volume ratio make a significant difference i.e. 3Litres / Kg or even higher. (mine is 2.3L/Kg)



BOG


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## BOG (8/10/07)

Adamt said:


> Make sure your thermometer is properly calibrated, 100C in boiling water, 0C in ice/water slurry. You'll kick yourself if its out by 5C.



Now thats a good suggestion. Thanks I'll try that one tonight. Could be it's a cheap candy sugar thermometer.


BOG


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## tangent (8/10/07)

true, if it were out by 5C a 75C mash could explain a few things


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## BOG (8/10/07)

braufrau said:


> Did you remember to stir at each water addition? I got a low efficiency (~50%) when I forgot to stir the sparge water in.



Yep stired at each additional.


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## tangent (8/10/07)

> it's a cheap candy sugar thermometer.



those are rated for really high temps, so it's probably going to be a bit vague around the critical 63-70 range
get yourself a cheap digital thermo from the sponsors above


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## tangent (8/10/07)

Mashmaster
Craftbrewer


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## Screwtop (8/10/07)

BOG said:


> Sorry Stuster now I'm really confused.
> 
> How can using more water get me more sugars into the boil?
> 
> ...




BOG, forget all the white noise re temps, thermometers etc for the time being, you can concentrate on fine tuning later. The problem is that you have not washed the mash with enough water to get the correct extraction. Will need to know the volumes of your kettle and mash tun before we can suggest values for you to use which will result in better efficiency.

Screwy


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## oldbugman (8/10/07)

sparge more water.

the suagrs just dont fall off the grain, you need to wash them off.


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## tangent (8/10/07)

so you're suggesting to only adjust the water to grist ratio and still measure it with a candy thermometer? white noise eh?


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## Stuster (8/10/07)

BOG said:


> How can using more water get me more sugars into the boil?
> 
> Does the initital mash water volume ratio make a significant difference i.e. 3Litres / Kg or even higher. (mine is 2.3L/Kg)



Using more sparge water will get more sugars from the grains. Essentially at this stage you are rinsing the grains. The more water you use, the more sugar you'll extract. Obviously, there's a point at which that's not really helpful as you then need to boil off that water afterwards and/or you may extract tannins etc from the grains. But only 6L of sparge water for a 5kg grain bill is not going to be enough. The mash in ratio is not really that important here.


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## Chris (8/10/07)

BOG said:


> 6 Litres which brought it up to 15Litre pre-boil volume.
> 
> BOG



Way too low



BOG said:


> Sorry Stuster now I'm really confused.
> 
> How can using more water get me more sugars into the boil?
> 
> ...



Try 3L/Kg

Excellent reference ebook link

Also, am I correct in thinking you were trying to get a preboil gravity of 1.079?


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## Screwtop (8/10/07)

tangent said:


> so you're suggesting to only adjust the water to grist ratio and still measure it with a candy thermometer? white noise eh?




Tangent, you've been around the Ag scene long enough to know what I'm aiming at. Total Water!


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## Tony (8/10/07)

Found your problem..................

BEER SMITH :lol:  

Ahhhh its like the "Holden v Ford" thing hey

But on subject....... I recon the mash temp may have been a big one.

those candy therm's are shit. get something better! 70 Deg is a bit hot and it you were out a bit you would have killed off the enzymes and only produced sugars that will be dificult to firment. 

Try mashing at 66 for a more ballanced beer.

another 2 big efficiency killers i can think of to look out for are poorly cracked grain and channeling.

if the grain is not cracked properly or finly enough the water cant get access to all the starch and it wont be converted..... hence low efficiency.

The other... channeling" is when the grain bed either opens up and lets the water run strain through without collecting sugars on the way (this is why i batch sparge) If your beer channeled in the sparge the grain will be sweet to taste when its done. It should have no sweetness at all. It should actually be almost unplessant like bread crust on its own. If its sweet you didnt wash out all the sugars.

hope this helps a bit

cheers


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## tangent (8/10/07)

well, the other thing is a low water to grist ratio usually means dough balls. that's never efficient!


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## dr K (8/10/07)

5 ish kilo of grain and 12 odd litres of mash water...fine
it has to be your thermometer..
it is often said that the brewers compass is the hydrometer..I disagree..the thermometer is the most important part of your kit.
the no sparge method, as advocated by GFix , requires about 50% more grain and some simple math shows that even had you no-sparged your efficiency is scrawed!
I have about 5 or 6 thermometers and check them against each other.I have have so many cause usually I can not find one, because usually I have lost one of 5 sets of glasses, not to mention my 5 sets of spectacles...

K (5 not 9)


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## Tony (8/10/07)

ahhhh yeah..... dough balls will do it too.

but not that much on their own.

could have been a combination of a few things.

practice makes perfect mate..

drink up 

cheers


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## Maxt (9/10/07)

I have had a few sub 50% efficiency beers, and thanks to advice on this forum and elswhere I found the culprits:

1. Beersmith telling me to mash at 70deg (too hot), my thermometer being out (so mashed at 74 by mistake) enzymes very unhappy!

2. Ph was out (which was more an attenuation issue) Drought may be changing our water profile?

3. Crush was too coarse (this season's grain seems to be of a lesser quality, so needed to crush finer)


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## mfdes (9/10/07)

We still didn't get data on the crucial grain crush. In my system it's the single most important variable. 
As to mash water I often mash with 2L/Kg and get 75-80% efficiencies. I do take care to mix everything thoroughly and sparge carefully.

MFS


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## BOG (9/10/07)

To all, thanks,

Sorry for not responding last night but "she" kept me busy, and this work thing really impacts my social life. I'm only getting to this at 1pm. 

For those following the water idea I needed to tell you it was mashed as follows;

5.15Kg Grain (Joe White)
12 Litres of Water @70c for 45 minutes. (Stirred Well)
Drain
4 Litres of Water @75c for 10 minutes (Stirred Well)
Drain
5 Litres of Water @75c (Stirred Well)
Drain

The Mash Tun is a 40Litre Esky with SS Braid 900mm long in figure 8. Has some dead space but I havent calibrated for it.
There where no dough balls. It was all loose grain at the end. 

I'm going to go with the buggered Thermometer idea as I assume BeerSmith is right and everything else seems to make sense. Still don't quite understand the more water = more sugar idea. At some point you can have too much water and just dilute the total sugars. yes? 

Re: Grain Crush - It came crushed in a bag from Dave's HB.

One thing I will do is adjust the 1st Mash in Volume to be 3L/kg ratio and the rest enough to make up the right totals.
I think there is a clear point around BeerSmith letting me use a mashing water ratio of 2.3 as you all seem to think that's a bit low.

Also, this was second AG attempt different receipe last time and about same efficiency. I made sure all the number where correct that time also so a buggered thermometer makes sense.

I'll get onto one of the advertisers and order one today.

Thanks Again


BOG


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## Sammus (9/10/07)

I reckon 2.3 is ok as a dough in, I reckon you wouldve been better off doing one batch sparge instead of two, so adding the extra 9L all together. If its too thick the sparge water wont dissolve the sugars as well - thats my theory anyway, the thicker my mash is (and/or sparge) the lower my efficiency - I still only top out at about 60% though, so you probably shouldnt take my advice lol.


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## Stuster (9/10/07)

BOG said:


> Still don't quite understand the more water = more sugar idea. At some point you can have too much water and just dilute the total sugars. yes?



The sugar is in/on/around the grain. If you don't wash it (sparge) with much water, it will stay in/on/around the grain. Here's what Palmer has to say (from How to brew)



> Sparging is the rinsing of the grain bed to extract as much of the sugars from the grain as possible without extracting mouth-puckering tannins from the grain husks. Typically, 1.5 times as much water is used for sparging as for mashing



So if you use 12L of water, I'd be using 18L of sparge water (including the mash out water). You used 9L so less sugars out. I'm with drK though. There's more than just that. You should still get more than 50% efficiency with that amount of water. A new thermometer is a good idea.

Also, when you say 70C, does that mean the water or the grain? :unsure:


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## kabooby (9/10/07)

As well as the other things mentioned, I would try increasing you mash time to 60 mins. Its possible that the conversion was not 100% finnished when you mashed out.

Kabooby


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## Steve (9/10/07)

Mash in with 18-19 litres of water, mash for 60 mins, drain, do ONE sparge with 18-19 litres of water and buy a mashmaster thermometer to make sure the water temps and mash temps are accurate. Tis what I do.
Cheers
Steve


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## tangent (9/10/07)

i'd go with Steve on that suggestion


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## braufrau (9/10/07)

Steve said:


> Mash in with 18-19 litres of water, mash for 60 mins, drain, do ONE sparge with 18-19 litres of water and buy a mashmaster thermometer to make sure the water temps and mash temps are accurate. Tis what I do.
> Cheers
> Steve




But how big is BOG's kettle and how powerful his burner? Why are you limiting yourself to 15l BOG?


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## Trent (9/10/07)

BOG - here is my 2c, take it at that value.
If you are aiming at 15L, next time, in your 40L esky, try using 6kg of grain, mash with 16L of 72C water, should land you with a grain temp of 66C. 
At the end, heat up your sparge water to 80C, and pour it all into the mash before you drain anything. I would put in at least another 10L for sparge water, then stir it all around very well, recirculate and drain the whole lot to the kettle, and set fire to it. 
That should land you with somewhere in the vicinity of 20L into the kettle, at more than likely 60% efficiency. Thats what I used to do when I used the same vessel to sparge and boil with, it is kinda like a "no sparge method".
After you lose 1.5L (as you said) to evaporation - which, by the way, is a VERY low rate of evaporation for an hour long boil - and lose anohter litre or 2 to hop trub and hot break, you will get about 16.5L into the fermenter. Allow for racking losses, and you will end up with about 15L post ferment. 

I point the finger of blame at the braid in the bottom. I used to get get 60% efficiency with a braid, then changed to a manifold and regularly get 75-80%. I reckon, along with everyone else, there is no need for 2 batch sparges, you have more than enough room to do just one, or, as per my suggestion, put all the water in (after mashing around 2.6L/kg) and not worry about the sparging bit, until you get used to grain brewing.
Sorry my explantion is a bit disjointed - I am exhausted!
All the best
Trent


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## Stuster (9/10/07)

Trent said:


> I point the finger of blame at the braid in the bottom.



I don't think it's that simple. I get 80%+ with a braid.


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## Trent (9/10/07)

Stuster said:


> I don't think it's that simple. I get 80%+ with a braid.



In that case, I recant!
Had to point the finger somewhere, I think it is fairly difficult to get 35% with a decent crush. Even if the thermo were 5C out, I am fairly certain that Alpha Amalyse isnt denatured until 78C. I have heard of breweries mashing lower alc beers at 73C , and have personally mashed at 72C intentionally, and still got 75%. If you can produce beer like you do with a braid, Stuster, than I am happy to leave that out of my equation.
All the best
Trent


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## braufrau (10/10/07)

So ... let me ask this ...

say I'm making a 23l batch with 5kg grain, 1.050, then the received wisdom is that you'd need about a 30l boil. So the preboil gravity is
1.038.

But if I were doing a, say. 1.085 tripel, then my preboil gravity would be 1.060, (assuming 0.5kg sugar added at the end of the boil). It must be possible to get reasonable efficiency with this gravity because people do make tripels.

Now to my point ... why can't I do the first beer with an 19l boil. i.e. a concentrated boil of 1.060?? And then add water in the fermenter?

I asked this question before and was told "because the efficiency would suck" but I can't see why that should be ... up to a point.

Which brings me the next question. If I can do concentrated boils, what's a plausible starting boil gravity? Is 1.060 about the limit or can I go higher?
Does anyone do this already? Is there some other factor I'm overlooking? (apart from hop utilisation)

Well I suppose I should get my mashing process down pat first and then start increasing the boil gravity and see how I go.


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## kabooby (10/10/07)

braufrau said:


> So ... let me ask this ...
> 
> say I'm making a 23l batch with 5kg grain, 1.050, then the received wisdom is that you'd need about a 30l boil. So the preboil gravity is
> 1.038.
> ...



If you are making the first beer and you only want 19l in the kettle, you will not be using enough water to mash and sparge with. This will result in not getting all of the sugars out of the grain and therefore a lower efficiency.

Kabooby


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## Stuster (10/10/07)

As kabooby says, you won't get the sugars out, bf. The way I've done this with big beers is to do a parti-gyle batch. You can make a high gravity beer with the first runnings (mash water plus possibly some mash out water), then a smaller beer with the second runnings (the sparge). Gives you good efficiency and you've made two beers for one.


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## BOG (10/10/07)

Ok, Here a series of answers to your questions back to me.

Stuster,
My equipment is a 40L Mash Tun (Esky) with Braid. The pot is 20Liters and a 3 Ring burner.
I aim for 15L boils so I don't have to worry about boil over etc. A rolling boil will bring the liquid up to 6cm from the top.

I'm having trouble drinking down the kegs (4) and Bottles (150) I have at present. I want to make more beer but not necessarly drink it all so smaller batches are actually more fun. 

I aimed for 15L into the boiler and 90 minutes boil at sea level gives me 2L evap loss so 13L into the Fermentor.

Interesting comment from Trent. "Loose another Litre or 2 to Hop Trub and Hot Break" No one told me about that. I just poured the pot into the fermentor, Trub and all. I'll wait for it to settle in the fermentor and secondary to clear it. 
Is this wrong? 

Everyone seems to be telling me to sparge with way more water. But if I put 5Kg into the Mash Tun with 12L of water I get 
7L out. The next batch sparge I get all of it out as the grain is saturated so the max water could be is 8 litres. (7+8=15). {These are estimate number, exact numbers see earlier text}

I thought I would try to wash the sugars out twice. 2 being beter than 1. So went with half for each.
I don't see how I could sparge with 1.5 times the mash water which would equal 18Litres. This would make a batch size of about 25 litres. Not the 15 I was aiming for.

Here's something interesting. I note that If I lower the grain bill considerably to make weaker beer then I can get the sparge water to come back to a resonable level to agree with most of your comments.

My origional reciepe had 5.15Kg of grain to get an OG 1.079 (I like big sweet beers). Beersmith reduces the sparge water in line with the batch size of 15L down to only 5 liters. Which you all say is too low to wash out the sugars. 

If I half the grain bill (2.5Kg) (OG. 1.037) it goes like Mash In 6L, Mash out 2L, and Sparge 10.5L. Which aligns with everyone comments of more sparge water.

So How the hell do you make a high Gravity beer? The batch size numbers against equipment size limits it to about 1.050.


BOG

P.S. Purchased a Digital Thermometer from Ross Yesterday.


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## Stuster (10/10/07)

BOG said:


> So How the hell do you make a high Gravity beer? The batch size numbers against equipment size limits it to about 1.050.



See my post above. Parti-gyle is easy and you get two completely different beers.


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## Tseay (10/10/07)

BOG - I have a similar problem. I have to limit my boil size to 15l. Whilst I mash with a lot more water than you (3l per kg) and sparge with 4 l per Kg- I simply cant get the volume of extract to make the numbers work. I end up witha lot of filtrate that I simply throw away. So I have reduced my final fermenter volume to achieve target OG. I have also been thinking about the partygyle apporach, but next time will take the excess filtrate , boil it separately and add that to the fementer instead topping up with water. Providing I avoided excessive sparging ( ie down to 1010) - then it may lift my ( possibly your) efficiency , but make for a much longer process. I guess at the end of the day, there is no substitute for a full volume boil.

Cheers

T


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## PostModern (10/10/07)

BOG said:


> So How the hell do you make a high Gravity beer? The batch size numbers against equipment size limits it to about 1.050.
> BOG



Smaller batches or craploads more grain. You're going to have to throw efficiency out the window. Or make partial mashes, throw extract or sugar into the kettle.

What is the gravity of your final runnings?

I suspect you have a combination of problems, firstly being too little sparge water, so lots of extract left in the mash tun. Second, perhaps there is some channelling going on in your mash? ie, water sneaking out without going thru the majority of the grain. Can you post a pic of the insides of your mashtun?


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## Screwtop (10/10/07)

Correct me if I'm wrong BOG, you have set your batch size to 15L in Beersmith. Wouldn't the planned boil volume be somewhere in the vicinity of 20L for 5Kg of grain, thats too much for your kettle right? Batch size equals how much you want in the fermenter post boil. If your losses and top up water are set to zero then you would still need to boil 20L your kettle would be full to the brim.

Let me know if I'm onto something here, think you should aim for 10L into the fermenter with zero loss to trub etc for a pre-boil volume of around 13.5 L. If you set this as your target pre-boil using around 5Kg of grain for around 1.070 of extract value @ 65% efficiency you would need about 10.5L of infusion water for the sacc rest and 10.5L for sparge. 

Am I rambling on, or does this make sense?

Screwy


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## pint of lager (10/10/07)

BOG, time to update your old multimeter with one that takes a thermocouple.

Also, look at a bigger boiler so you can start with a larger volume. You can always brew a smaller batch in a big kettle, but you cannot do a big batch in a small kettle.


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## Sammus (10/10/07)

pint of lager said:


> BOG, time to update your old multimeter with one that takes a thermocouple.
> 
> Also, look at a bigger boiler so you can start with a larger volume. You can always brew a smaller batch in a big kettle, but you cannot do a big batch in a small kettle.



On that note theres another forum which I frequent (not quite as much as this ) which is also a kind of mini online store, one which sells a DMM with temp probe and serial connection for logging on a computer. See here. Could come in handy.


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## tangent (10/10/07)

not logged in error sammus


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## Sammus (10/10/07)

dang, i guess you need an account. its the same as this one but a few bucks cheaper.


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## braufrau (11/10/07)

Stuster said:


> As kabooby says, you won't get the sugars out, bf. The way I've done this with big beers is to do a parti-gyle batch. You can make a high gravity beer with the first runnings (mash water plus possibly some mash out water), then a smaller beer with the second runnings (the sparge). Gives you good efficiency and you've made two beers for one.



Hmm. I'm struggling with my equipment to do one brew, let alone 2! 
I've been doing highish gravity mashes (1.050-1.058)and getting ~65% efficiency
and that's while being totally clueless about what I'm doing. 

The next brew will is planned to have a 1.050 preboil, which no doubt I will not acheive, but
it will be interesting to see what I do achieve now I know what I've been doing wrong before.
At least I think I know what I'm doing now. 

And then from there I can start working on figuring what preboil gravity I can manage with resonable efficiency.


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## BOG (11/10/07)

I've learnt a lot from this one question.

I've ordered a Digital Thermometer from Ross which should arrive in the next couple of days and thrown away the old Candy Thermo.

I'll work the batch size in Beersmith to get sparge water higher to wash out the sugars correctly. 

I like POL's idea of a new multimeter with a thermocouple. The one from Jaycar with plotting software looks like fun. I could dangle it in the fermentor and plot fermenations temps. Not overly useful but fun .....

I'm surprised Beersmith dosen't alarm to say you have insufficent sparge water. Thats a software bug I would have thought.
What is the target sparge water ratio I should aim for? someone said 1.5 times mash in water.

And last, can someone explain the Batch size / Boil volume interaction in the software. The help file dosn't explain it well. 
What's happening as I change the numbers? I'm assuming Boil is target value into the kettle and Batch is target into Fermentor. Boil off is a function in the code so the difference is an added water value to fermentor number. 

PostModern, I didn't check Gravity of runnings. Just put hydometer in the pot before boil and got 1.040 and 1.044 after boil. The Tun is an esky, Brass T, threaded pipe to cromed Tap. SS Braid is off hot water hose 900mm and connected in loop to T connector. (Bunnings for $50) It twists to form a figure 8 on the base of the Esky. I'll find the camera and take a pic for you.


Thanks

BOG


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## Screwtop (11/10/07)

BOG said:


> I've learnt a lot from this one question.
> 
> I've ordered a Digital Thermometer from Ross which should arrive in the next couple of days and thrown away the old Candy Thermo.
> 
> ...



BOG,

Hydro's measure density, when a liquid is heated it increases in volume, therefore it is less dense, so taking a hydrometr reading of liquid gives an incorrect reading if the temperature of that liquid is not the same as the calibration temp of the hydro. Hydrometers are calibrated at either 15C or 20C check which yours is, pull a sample prior to the boil and stick it in the freezer for a while to come down to temp for a correct reading or you can take the temp of the wort at the time of reading and use the tool in beersmith to provide an adjusted reading.

Screwy.

PS. A refractometer is handy as as only a drop or two is required, which cools down to calibration temp quickly.


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## Steve Lacey (11/10/07)

BOG said:


> Just put hydometer in the pot before boil and got 1.040 and 1.044 after boil.



I'm with you Screwtop. I've been following this thread and thinking, "I wonder if he cooled the wort before measuring the gravity? Yeah, surely he would." And was kind of scared to mention it because it seems too obvious.

So BOG, please tell us that this thread is all founded on you reporting temperature adjusted gravity readings, mate. :unsure:


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## Steve Lacey (11/10/07)

BTW, 1.041 @ 90 deg C = 1.076 ... so we could be onto something here.


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## Screwtop (11/10/07)

BOG, have a look at post #14 Here may suit your small kettle.

Screwy


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## tangent (11/10/07)

dunno about PC software but BA can adjust your readings to suit temps, so you don't have to wait for it to cool down.


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## drsmurto (11/10/07)

So can BS 

Nice spot there Steve L, i punched that in but was betting on the candy thermometer. Wrong horse it seems....


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## tangent (11/10/07)

i think Steve gets the fluffy toy
this thread might be another great example of "there's nothing wrong with my beer but my peers tell me to be worried!"


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## BOG (11/10/07)

Ok, Ok, I'm a Dill... i'm sorry guys.... I really didn't know about the temp adjustment this is only my 2nd AG attempt.

Your right, 
Assuming a temp of 70deg it's 1.065 or 61.5%
Assuming a temp of 80deg it's 1.068 or 64.4%

either one of those number would be fine.

It's in the fermentor at present so no point measuring it there now.

The new digital thermometer arrived today so I'll be able to get accurate temps now.
I've learnt I need more sparge water so that might raise it up some more.

Also, thanks Screwtop for helping out with the equipment settings. 
With these variables covered I should be able to hit that 75% mark next time.

Again, I'm terribly sorry for waisting everyones time. Blame it on the AG newby.


BOG


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## oldbugman (11/10/07)

Get a refractometer and you can look for brix on the horizon.






sorry about the sideways pic


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## kabooby (11/10/07)

I find its a good habit to do a SG reading once the beer goes in the fermenter and the starter has been added anyway.

Didnt wast anyones time. Thats what the forum is for

Kabooby


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## ham2k (11/10/07)

BOG said:


> Ok, Ok, I'm a Dill... i'm sorry guys.... I really didn't know about the temp adjustment this is only my 2nd AG attempt.
> 
> ----
> 
> ...



Don't worry BOG, you're not alone. Following BeerSmith's instructions, I gave an AG a stab on the weekend with a high gravity wort and adding water afterwards (I only have a 19L pot). I thought I missed my efficiency by miles as I measured post mash - 1040 when I was hoping for 1060+. 

So I didn't add much boiling water before going in the NC cube. When I put it in the fermenter i had a reading of 1.060. Commence running around like a headless chook trying to boil and cool my tank water before I could add it.

All of the suggestions proffered in this thread are of immense value and I'll definitely be bookmarking this thread. Perfect timing.


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## Steve Lacey (11/10/07)

tangent said:


> i think Steve gets the fluffy toy



I hope its a Fatso. They would be worth a squillion by now I suppose. Anyway, I think Screwtop will be fighting me for it since he was first out of the blocks.

And of course nobody's time was wasted. We all learned to consider the most obvious things first: Man at help desk "Sir, is your computer plugged into a power socket?" :lol: 

And BOG, don't feel like a dill. We all have to start somewhere.


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## Screwtop (11/10/07)

No worries BOG thats what the forum is for, brewers helping brewers, I've made some monumental duck fups, felt like taking myself outside and giving myself three swift uppercuts at times. Your eff will hit 80% easy by the time you sort your system and procedures.

Screwy


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## braufrau (11/10/07)

The latest basicbrewing podcast is about measuring tools; refractometers etc.
linky


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