# Kettled Sour beers. Where do i start?



## Fendercaster (19/8/17)

Hey all. I am looking at doing a sour soon but i have not done one. I am looking at somewhere to start. Simple. Easy to follow and learn but also a tasty start. Appreciate any input.
Also i am looking at using my milk Kefir as the lacto start too.


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## paulyman (19/8/17)

Awesome. Just like all grain in general this is a slippery slope!

Easiest way is to mash and sparge as normal lower to sub 40C and add your lacto source. I tend to use IBS support pills as my source but Milk kefir will work as well. With the IBS pills the lacto isn't so picky with high temps it works great at room temp (20C ish) and keeping out O2 isn't so critical with pure lacto. 

With Milk kefir being a non pure source of lactic acid producing bacteria as well as various wild yeast I would try and limit O2 as there could be off flavours produced otherwise. Some Milk the funk users have reported acetic acid production others haven't, so YMMV. Also be aware that fermentation may occur thanks to the wild yeast. 

Either way 24-36 hours later the pH should be at a good level so you can start your boil and hop as you like. From this point fermentation should be no different to a regular brew session.

Edit - forgot to mention I do the whole thing in my grainfather.


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## thumbsucker (24/8/17)

My thought is that Kefir maybe not the best thing for your first sour. Kefir is made up dozens of Lacto, yeast & other bacteria. Some of those will produce Lacto but other will convert sugar into alcohol. Since you do not know what you are getting with Kefir. When you boil the wort to kill the Lacto you will boil off alcohol at the same time, thereby reducing the totality of sugar available to produce alcohol down the road. 

I would highly recommend starting with a pure Lacto strain like IBS support. 

I also ferment Kefir, I want to try using it, however, I will let the Kefir to split into whey and curds, then using the whey part to undertake a year long traditional fermentation for a Berliner Weisse.


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## Schikitar (25/8/17)

paulyman said:


> I tend to use IBS support pills


What sort of amounts do you use? I'd like to have a crack at this over the coming months, never done a sour before...


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## earle (25/8/17)

Here's a link to the a thread where I outline my method for kettle sours. Might be other info in the thread for you as well.

https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/berliner-weisse.66316/page-13#post-1464881


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## Lionman (25/8/17)

A great post from @thumbsucker on this thread too

https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/sour-not-sour.95924/#post-1469956


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## GrumpyPaul (25/8/17)

There is a forum member AJ80 that is reknowned for his sours at the Vic case swaps. He gave me some advice a while ago about how to do and easy kettle sour - the following is copied from his PM to me.


Really glad you liked them mate. Here's a thread that covers a couple of different ways to do it (bugs in the fermenter, sour mash and kettle souring):

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/70585-sour-beers/page-10

I also took pretty heavily from this video (except i kettle soured as opposed to the mash):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ohhXiKwYYsg

And finally, here's an overview of what I did:

- lauter into kettle as normal (my grist was 50/50 pilsner and wheat malt with an OG of 1.032)
- add some chilled water to bring it down below 50C
- add 500g uncracked pilsner malt in a hop sock to the wort (can be any base malt, just not a crystal as the higher kilning temps kills the lacto bugs)
- cover the surface of the wort with glad wrap. 
- purge the headspace of your kettle with CO2 as best you can. 
- lid on and seal it best you can. 
- using a temp controller (ah the joys of an electric setup!!), keep at 40C until it hits your desired level of sourness. My brew was 50 hours, but it'll depend on your random inoculation rate from the pilsner malt. 
- I re-purged with CO2 after 24 hours. The CO2 is to inhibit aceterbacter (or however it's spelled - the bug that makes vinegar). It loves oxygen. 40C is also important for this. 
- keep tasting til you hit the right level for you (it'll taste ok, but smell like hot sick for the first 24 hours and then like sourdough after a bit). 
- skim the scum off top and bring to boil. 
- I did a 30 minute boil with a whopping 8IBUs of a neutral hop at 30 mins. 
- cubed and then fermented at 16C with notto yeast to keep it clean. 


I have follwoed the above instructions and made a pretty reasonalbe sour. the process is pretty easy if you have the ablitity ot maintain the temp at 40C . My kettle has an electric element so it was easy.

My only other tip form follwoing this is that when he says keep tasting until you hit the right level of sour...keep in mind its unfermented wort which is very sweet and hides the true sourness. I think I went a bit too far on mine. By the time all the sugar fermetns out it can be quite a bit more sour than you think it would be.

@AJ80 - hope you see this and chime in with more of your sourness and wisdom


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## Schikitar (25/8/17)

Some pretty cool and interesting ideas here, I'm pretty keen to brew a raspberry sour for the spring/summer months, I'll do some more reading...


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## AJ80 (25/8/17)

Cheers for the plug grumpypaul!

The only thing I've changed from the above process is lautering to the kettle, boil for 10 mins to pasturise and then cool it down to 40C before adding a source of lacto. 

Kettle souring is a great way to dip your toe into sour beers without the worry of having dedicated sour gear in your brewery. That said, if you're keen on sour, the plunge to more traditional long term sour beers is well worth the journey!

Good luck!!


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## thumbsucker (25/8/17)

Schikitar said:


> What sort of amounts do you use? I'd like to have a crack at this over the coming months, never done a sour before...



For a 25 litre batch, 5 tablets will give a notable sour in 24 - 48 hours.


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## Lionman (25/8/17)

I know one of the guys at Pirate Life, he mentioned its important for the Lacto to ferment anaerobic so to squirt some CO2 in the headspace of the kettle. He mentioned 45 degrees as a good temp.


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## paulyman (25/8/17)

Schikitar said:


> What sort of amounts do you use? I'd like to have a crack at this over the coming months, never done a sour before...



As thumbsucker said, 5-6 is plenty. These aren't as thermophilic as other lacto strains so are happy at 20-25, but will of course work quicker the higher that temp rises towards the mid to high 30's.


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## /// (26/8/17)

Brother Pauly, is that like the ethical nutrients brand ibs tablets?


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## DUANNE (26/8/17)

Lionman said:


> I know one of the guys at Pirate Life, he mentioned its important for the Lacto to ferment anaerobic so to squirt some CO2 in the headspace of the kettle. He mentioned 45 degrees as a good temp.


instead of purging with co2 i put a layer or 2 of glad wrap directly on the wort as a bit of a barrier.


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## paulyman (26/8/17)

/// said:


> Brother Pauly, is that like the ethical nutrients brand ibs tablets?



Yeah Scotty, I have a heap in the fridge at the moment. If you are looking for some let me know and I can bring some round.


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## Fendercaster (26/8/17)

Has anyone used yakalt with success and if so how much for a 25lt batch?


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## /// (27/8/17)

paulyman said:


> Yeah Scotty, I have a heap in the fridge at the moment. If you are looking for some let me know and I can bring some round.



If you can. Swap a bottle of RIS for some. Might start next weekend and do in Koots' urn to hold the temp


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## dblunn (29/8/17)

Hi Trent, Tim at Hopdog has used Yacault (sp) and he is currently trying another product which is similar but comes in a much larger bottle.
Dave


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## Droopy Brew (29/8/17)

Fendercaster said:


> Has anyone used yakalt with success and if so how much for a 25lt batch?


YEs mate I used 5 bottles of Yakult for a 46L batch of Gose. Was a bit slow but I reckon for a 25L batch would be perfect. Mine took 48 hours to get to a pH of 3.7.

It came out really well.

Also, one of the key reasons for keeping the heat up to it is to make it a hostile environment for undesirable bacto species. Aim to keep the wort around the 40C mark for the duration of the souring process. I also used gladwrap rather than purge with CO2 to keep the O2 out. Again, this is more to keep undesirable species out rather than promoting anaerobic respiration from lacto (it does aid in this though).


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## Fendercaster (19/9/17)

So i put Down this brew yesterday afternoon. Unfortunately i usually no chill so i had my brew in the kettle till midnight waiting for the temp to come down. 
Anyway i went with a 50/50 of wheat and pils to aim for a gravity of 1030 and onve temp hit left the element on for approx 40C. I pitched 5 tablets of Inner health Plus. Then purged with co2 and sealed the kettle. Initial readings were 1028 and a ph of 6. This is all at 40C after the first boil. Ill keep posted on the outcome. Appreciate everyones input


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## Schikitar (19/9/17)

Cool, how do you measure pH?


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## Fendercaster (19/9/17)

Schikitar said:


> Cool, how do you measure pH?


Ph meter. I have one for various things but a decent one is pretty cheap on 'the bay'. Only if you want to be crucial on it otherwise i hear tasting is equally good.


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## Schikitar (19/9/17)

Fendercaster said:


> Ph meter. I have one for various things but a decent one is pretty cheap on 'the bay'. Only if you want to be crucial on it otherwise i hear tasting is equally good.



I know next to nothing about what is a good one to buy, so I'm sticking with tasting at this point (although I would like to measure mash pH etc., could come in handy for looking after the pool too)!


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## Fendercaster (19/9/17)

Schikitar said:


> I know next to nothing about what is a good one to buy, so I'm sticking with tasting at this point (although I would like to measure mash pH etc., could come in handy for looking after the pool too)!


Haha im learning too. There is plenty but if you just have a quick read you should the one that will suit you. I have a water proof one with an electrode and thermom in it. Reads what it is quuckly without assumption. Worth it if you want it for a few different uses


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## AJ80 (19/9/17)

Good luck! It's a slippery slope. Make sure you taste relatively frequently, the sourness can get too much quite quickly.


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## micka80 (19/9/17)

when you guys ferment a sour do you use dedicated gear? I have a fresh wort kit berliner weisse fermenting at the moment and wondering if i should buy new racking gear and bottling bucket.


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## earle (19/9/17)

No need if its a kettle sour. Bugs should have been kille in the second boil.


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## micka80 (19/9/17)

Cheers Earle, i'll just make sure i do a thorough clean/sanitize.


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## Fendercaster (20/9/17)

So i just finished and put my brew into a cube to no chill. 
Total time to get to a ph of 3.6 and a happy taste was 42hrs. 
Ill be brewing this ASAP to see the results. 
A few things ill note. 
1. Timing. If you are going to sour be nearby. Although initially the first 24hrs was slow. With a change from a ph of 6 to 5. but the next 20hrs raced down to 3.6. So if you are brewing on sunday and want to sour it. If its left overnight or you have to go to work. You maybe in for a seriously sour beer in those final few hours. I overlooked this and yet another school night im up till 12.

2. Visual. Using probiotic capsules means i had a pure strain. A few pictures put up have cloudy, bubbly or foam surfaces. Mine did not in the slightest. Just looked like a normal wort. I stressed there was no activity. But my ph meter assured me otherwise. So if you are going to brew it without a meter dont stress. Stuff is happening in there.


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## Fendercaster (20/10/17)

So its kegged. And it it Glorious! This is a brew i strongly recommend. It's actually quite simple yet so tasty.


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## dblunn (20/10/17)

Well done Trent!


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## Fendercaster (22/10/17)

Also want to say a huge thank you to all that helped and contributed. Truly appreciate your time and knowledge.


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## contrarian (22/10/17)

Nice work Trent! I did a kettle sour over the long weekend, mashed on Saturday and then boiled on the Tuesday. I used a pure strain as well and had no pellicle but taste did get sour over time. 

Just put it on to ferment yesterday with a Brett trois so will be interesting to see how it comes up! Hopefully as well as yours!


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