# Very Quick Fining Question



## stef (7/10/10)

In my lagers so far i've used a little sachet of brigalow 'beer finings' and been happy with the result. Just went to get some then, but big W had run out... 

I think it might just be plain gelatin though? Or is there something else in it? 

Thought i might just mix up a teaspoon or 2 of gelatin in hot water, dissolve and add to beer. Will that work the same way?

Cheers


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## Acasta (7/10/10)

stef said:


> In my lagers so far i've used a little sachet of brigalow 'beer finings' and been happy with the result. Just went to get some then, but big W had run out...
> 
> I think it might just be plain gelatin though? Or is there something else in it?
> 
> ...


Sure will.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=21879


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## cdbrown (7/10/10)

It's what I did last night for two batches.

Boil the kettle, put about 200ml into a cup with 2 teaspoons, give it a good stir to mix through and then it's ready to either pour gently into the beer or put it into the secondary and rack on top.


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## stef (7/10/10)

Thanks guys, much appreciated. Too easy!


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## MHB (7/10/10)

Depends on what the "Gelatine" you end up with was made from, contrary to popular opinion not all gelatines are created equal.

If perchance it was made from pig skin (the cheapest grade) it can be totally ineffective as it contains little or none of the type of collagen (kappa-collagen) that is the most effective. Bovine collagen (dead cows hove's and horns) is fairly good, collagen extracted from crustaceans (crab and prawn shells) quite rare, is better but the best of all is made from some types fish swim bladders (isinglass).

You get what you pay for is that a surprise.

MHB


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## thesunsettree (7/10/10)

You get what you pay for is that a surprise.

MHB
[/quote]

but, but, but, but.... I've been told i dont have to pay jack for anything i want if i'm smart


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## drtomc (7/10/10)

Any experience of which brands are porcine and which are bovine?


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## manticle (7/10/10)

MHB said:


> Depends on what the "Gelatine" you end up with was made from, contrary to popular opinion not all gelatines are created equal.
> 
> If perchance it was made from pig skin (the cheapest grade) it can be totally ineffective as it contains little or none of the type of collagen (kappa-collagen) that is the most effective. Bovine collagen (dead cows hove's and horns) is fairly good, collagen extracted from crustaceans (crab and prawn shells) quite rare, is better but the best of all is made from some types fish swim bladders (isinglass).
> 
> ...



Do you have any recommendations for brands or types (eg leaf gelatine vs powdered)? The gelatine I use seems to work (davis or other) although I use it in conjunction with racking, cc and time and have had beers clear without it. Isinglass is different from gelatin though (as I'm sure you know) even though it works on similar principles as far as I'm aware.


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## Nick JD (7/10/10)

*Wards Edible Gelatine* in the purple cardboard can works wonderfully. It costs SFA and will do about 500L of beer. 

I got it from Coles.

This stuff - see it works!


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## Aus_Rider_22 (7/10/10)

MHB said:


> Depends on what the "Gelatine" you end up with was made from, contrary to popular opinion not all gelatines are created equal.
> 
> If perchance it was made from pig skin (the cheapest grade) it can be totally ineffective as it contains little or none of the type of collagen (kappa-collagen) that is the most effective. Bovine collagen (dead cows hove's and horns) is fairly good, collagen extracted from crustaceans (crab and prawn shells) quite rare, is better but the best of all is made from some types fish swim bladders (isinglass).
> 
> ...



I am intrigued! 

If Isinglass performs better than gelatine then I think I will just use it instead. I currently CC my fermentor for 3 days then add gelatine for a few more then keg. Happy with the results but if there is an improvement to be had with the same procedure then I will look into it. :icon_cheers:


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## MHB (7/10/10)

In no particular order: -
No idea where makers of supermarket gelatine suppliers source their stock, or if they don't just go to the cheapest supplier at any given time.
The stuff sold in home brew shops (little foil bags) is I believe Bovine gelatine.
Isinglass acts on both yeast and Chill Haze, other gelatines don't they only work on yeast. Before you use Isinglass make sure you read up on it (it denatures easily, I was getting it wrong for years), dissolve it in cold water and use it in cold beer (lagering temperatures so chill haze can form) for best results. I can't find any reference to anything other than Isinglass in any technical literature and therein lays a point.
That isn't "Bright"
Commercial preparations of Isinglass are mostly either liquid or very fine powder; if it says Un-Cut you don't want it. Google "Cutting Isinglass" if you don't believe me.
MHB

stef hope this teaches you there are No quick brewing questions brewers are like economists, lock 2 in a room and at least three answers will emerge 
M


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## felten (8/10/10)

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/How_p...e_and_fermenter

good read


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## stef (8/10/10)

MHB said:


> In no particular order: -
> No idea where makers of supermarket gelatine suppliers source their stock, or if they don't just go to the cheapest supplier at any given time.
> The stuff sold in home brew shops (little foil bags) is I believe Bovine gelatine.
> Isinglass acts on both yeast and Chill Haze, other gelatines don't they only work on yeast. Before you use Isinglass make sure you read up on it (it denatures easily, I was getting it wrong for years), dissolve it in cold water and use it in cold beer (lagering temperatures so chill haze can form) for best results. I can't find any reference to anything other than Isinglass in any technical literature and therein lays a point.
> ...




Too true!


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## Bribie G (8/10/10)

Aus_Rider_22 said:


> I am intrigued!
> 
> If Isinglass performs better than gelatine then I think I will just use it instead. I currently CC my fermentor for 3 days then add gelatine for a few more then keg. Happy with the results but if there is an improvement to be had with the same procedure then I will look into it. :icon_cheers:



I've tried isinglass but as MHB says it can be a bitch, even the Cryofine sold by a sponsor needs to be stirred in very cold water for up to 30 minutes, that's 30 mins you'll never get back unless you invest in a stir plate. Worked quite well but I chucked most of it. Gelatine (Wards or Mackenzies) you just stir and tip. Also unless you store it meticulously, cryofine can absorb moisture and turn into a lumpy paste that smells like it's been through your cat. :icon_vomit: Not the sort of thing I fancied putting into my beers.


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## Aus_Rider_22 (8/10/10)

BribieG said:


> I've tried isinglass but as MHB says it can be a bitch, even the Cryofine sold by a sponsor needs to be stirred in very cold water for up to 30 minutes, that's 30 mins you'll never get back unless you invest in a stir plate. Worked quite well but I chucked most of it. Gelatine (Wards or Mackenzies) you just stir and tip. Also unless you store it meticulously, cryofine can absorb moisture and turn into a lumpy paste that smells like it's been through your cat. :icon_vomit: Not the sort of thing I fancied putting into my beers.



I see. I currently don't even stir the gelatine for 30mins like prescribed by some and if Isinglass requires this then I will stick with gelatine stirred for a couple mins then mixed into CC'ing beer. Thanks. :icon_cheers:


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## Fourstar (8/10/10)

one thing thats been getting to me is using agar over gelatine. Doing a bit of reading i believe agar is negatively charged, which would do SFA when attempting to flocculate yeast cells (as they are also neg charged). it would however, have an effect on protiens which are positive. It might be a good option to use as a kettle fining (floc proteins) and may also be benificial to use like polyclar help to reduce chill haze.

Any knowledge on this MHB?


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## MHB (8/10/10)

Have seen reference to Agar used as a fining, but more in home wine making especially county wines (non grape), being a polypeptide it would act differently to collagen based fining agents. Never seen a beer related reference tho, because of its nature I wouldnt think it would make a good kettle fining. But then this is brewing and I might be wildly wrong.

MHB


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## potof4x (8/10/10)

Fourstar said:


> one thing thats been getting to me is using agar over gelatine. Doing a bit of reading i believe agar is negatively charged, which would do SFA when attempting to flocculate yeast cells (as they are also neg charged). it would however, have an effect on protiens which are positive. It might be a good option to use as a kettle fining (floc proteins) and may also be benificial to use like polyclar help to reduce chill haze.
> 
> Any knowledge on this MHB?



Bit of a highjack ... sorry.

Looking for a vegetarian friendly fining. Already using polyclar, what fining options do I have for floccing yeast?


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## manticle (8/10/10)

Bentonite is one veg friendly fining. Otherwise just cold condition and time.


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## argon (8/10/10)

For a vego alternative just crash chill and filter. Couldn't be arsed using gelatine... But do own a filter... Diamond bright everytime.... And no bits animal in my beer. I've been to rendering plant and never want to smell such a thing for the rest of my life.


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## MHB (8/10/10)

manticle said:


> Bentonite is one veg friendly fining. Otherwise just cold condition and time.


Not in brewing I believe. Bentonite is used to absorb protein in wine making.
Finings just speed up the settling process they achieve nothing that time and temperature wont if your patient.

MHB


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## manticle (8/10/10)

Bentonite is only something I've read about as a veg friendly fining. I don't know any brewers who use it - just throwing it out there as something worth researching.

I have had very clear beers that used no finings - just cold temps and patience so that's probably the best option as you suggest


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## mwd (9/10/10)

Bentonite used for clearing finnings in Winemaking or for weighting up Drilling Mud in Oil Gas Industry I think it is derived from clay but don't take that as gospel.


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## potof4x (9/10/10)

Tropical_Brews said:


> Bentonite used for clearing finnings in Winemaking or for weighting up Drilling Mud in Oil Gas Industry I think it is derived from clay but don't take that as gospel.



I work in the drilling game and what you say is true, I have mixed tonnes of (modified) bentonite. Have done exploration at a bentonite mine, and it is just clay. Cat litter is bentonite and it is also used in cattle feed for trace minerals and to aid in keeping cattle feeling full. :blink: whew...

Hopefully it will clear a sorghum extract based, gluten free, vegetarian friendly honey blonde ale I am brewing now also... any tips on how to use in a beer?


Cheers

Rob


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## RdeVjun (9/10/10)

Yep, bentonite is a clayey mineral with excellent sealing qualities as it expands dramatically when wet etc. Also used as a flocculant in some applications, this would be one of them, but I can't really help with rates etc. :unsure: 
Wikipedia's entry  is tough going (skip to Uses), seems to have had more than its fair share of hammer- wielding geologists, lab- coated chemists and wannabe engineers trying to out- do each other in the 'talking shop' stakes... :angry:


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## Bribie G (9/10/10)

Mixed with psyllium husk bentonite makes a really good colon cleanser.


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## MHB (9/10/10)

potof4x said:


> snip
> Hopefully it will clear a sorghum extract based, gluten free, vegetarian friendly honey blonde ale I am brewing now also... any tips on how to use in a beer?
> Cheers
> Rob




I've been playing with sorghum extract brews for a couple of years and have reached the conclusion that nothing gets it really bright. The amount of trub formed by just boiling the Briess Sorghum Syrup is amazing and unacceptable.

The only practical solution I have found is to boil the syrup add a good kettle fining, allow it to cool over night then filter it the next day. Have found a bag filter at about 50-100um works well (putting it through a centrifuge works exceptionally well but might be a bit outside the average brewers equipment inventory)

Reheat and boil the filtered wort to bitter at usual. The results are reasonably good with acceptable trub leaves, you just have to watch the bitterness, you want significantly less bitterness than a malt beer or it will taste very harsh I would try somewhere around 15 IBU as a good starting point.

Staying off topic:-

The directions my experiments are heading next time I filter there will be an addition of filteraid (basically flavourless paper pulp) to try and speed up the process.

Today I'm trying my first small test enzyme digestion of Sorghum (10 Kg) with rice hulls (1 Kg) and a combination of 2 different Amylases, Glucanase and Protease.

Time will tell.

MHB


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## Bribie G (9/10/10)

:icon_offtopic: AFAIK many African countries such as Nigeria make heavy use of Sorghum, can it be malted? Masses of it grown in Australia.


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## Millet Man (9/10/10)

Not sure what they're doing to get that much trub in it! The malted sorghum comes up pretty clean and never had any excess trub problems. Hope your enzyme digestion works out ok, done heaps in the past on buckwheat and millet but not any on sorghum.

Cheers, Andrew.



MHB said:


> I've been playing with sorghum extract brews for a couple of years and have reached the conclusion that nothing gets it really bright. The amount of trub formed by just boiling the Briess Sorghum Syrup is amazing and unacceptable.
> 
> The only practical solution I have found is to boil the syrup add a good kettle fining, allow it to cool over night then filter it the next day. Have found a bag filter at about 50-100um works well (putting it through a centrifuge works exceptionally well but might be a bit outside the average brewers equipment inventory)
> 
> ...


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## Millet Man (9/10/10)

BribieG said:


> :icon_offtopic: AFAIK many African countries such as Nigeria make heavy use of Sorghum, can it be malted? Masses of it grown in Australia.



Yep can be malted Bribie, needs to be done a bit warmer than barley being a tropical grain and need to be on the watch for mould growth due to the higher temps. We malt a white variety and it comes up pretty good, the flavour is much better than raw sorghum but not as malty as barley. Has good alpha amylase activity but beta amylase is weaker so need to use lower conversion temps.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## MHB (9/10/10)

The trub issue is with the Briess Syrup that very carefully doesn't mention "Malt, Malted or Malting" anywhere in the literature. This Stuff >View attachment 41358

Just boiled up with hops and enough water to give a sensible gravity (1.040-50) and it settles to about half trub and half clear wort. If you brew it you get 50 mm or more of trub in each bottle what I would call unacceptable, 5 mm I can live with.

Some varieties of Red Sorghum (most of the common ones grown in Australia) contain an enzyme that poisons Amylase.
Today's experiment was to see if I have countered this and it's looking good 45 Litres of 1.040 before the boil, from 10 Kg of Sorghum, so roughly 50% extraction from raw grain, get that up to 60-65% and I will be happy.
Fair point about Malted tasting better, once I get this process down I will look at adding in some Malted Sorghum for better flavour.

MHB


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## Brewman_ (9/10/10)

Sorry to go back to the earlier point point raised in the post with reagrds to Isinglass.

I have incorrectly prepared isinglass finings in hot 80Deg.C water by stirring vigorously for a couple of minutes and then adding to a racked fermenter at -1 Deg.C. 

I have to say, that this works great, despite the incorrect procedure, drops everything to leave bright beer. Having used various types of gelatines, I would say that the Isingalss prepared hot was far better.

It sounds like preparing Isinglass cold is even better! But I would not spend 30 minutes preparing it based on my experience.

Fear_n_Loath.


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