# Sugar In Belgians



## Tony (18/5/08)

Well i have a pack of 3787 in the fridge awaiting duty.

I proclaimed last year i would start my adventur into belgian brewing but looks like it starts in a few weeks when i get it going in the starter and a Dubbel mashed to start things off.

I was wondering what people use for sugar in theit belgians.

I have only brewed one before........ a trippel a few years ago that got a 2nd place at beerfest and anawbs from memory. I made my own invert sugar from cane sugar and it worked well.

i was looking at getting some belgian candi sugar from Ross but he is out of stock.

I have read lots of text saying to use dextrose, raw sugar, deamerra (spelling) brown sugar........... and god knows what else so im a bit unsure.

What do you all use?

and how much as a %age in what?

Im looking at brewing dubbels and tripples and expanding from there to saisons ect (scary)

cheers


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## goatherder (18/5/08)

Have you read BLAM Tony? The Belgians use a variety of sugars but plenty use just plain old table sugar. If you can't get hold of the candy sugar, give some table sugar a go. Use specialty grains like caraaroma for your colour and flavour. As for %age, 10-15% is common.


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## Oblomov (18/5/08)

Cane sugar. Around 15%. I tried candy sugar, chinese rock sugar, brown suger and I even inverted some sugar myself. Methinks the main purpose of using sugar is to avoid an overpowering malt taste while keeping IBU's low and alcohol up.


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## Oblomov (18/5/08)

Checked my log, 11% to 13% actually.


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## KillerRx4 (18/5/08)

Nice choice in yeast Tony. Ive found it to be my favorite for the style.

Ive been using plain old white cane sugar upto 20%. I bought some candi rocks once, what a rip off. Tried making some once, PITA... Now i just dump it in the kettle straight from the paper bag.


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## Chad (18/5/08)

The only tripel I have made which came out pretty good used 10% cane. Next time I make it I am increasing it a % or two.


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## Gough (18/5/08)

G'day Tony,

All those sugar options you mentioned will produce good results. In a Tripel style though I reckon you can't go past plain ol' cane sugar. I'm a believer in adding it after fermentation has commenced for best results in high ABV beers, but it is up to you. Many others swear by boiling it. I'm sure it'll be a good beer either way mate!

Shawn.


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## neonmeate (18/5/08)

if you're after a good sugar for dubbels, see if you can get this stuff - billingtons light muscovado - it's basically like normal brown sugar, except unrefined (unlike the csr stuff which is white sugar reconstituted with molasses). i just tried it in my gavroche clone and it worked very nicely - not too full on like ross's rochefort sugar, but nice warm flavour.


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## Stuster (18/5/08)

Where in Sydney can you get that, neonmeate?

And another vote for cane sugar in tripels/blondes etc.


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## Gough (18/5/08)

Mmmm... Muscovado... That is a nice sugar for the style. 

Shawn.


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## kabooby (18/5/08)

In my dubbel I made the Belgian Candy syrup the Randy Mosher way and some brown sugar.

Link

Kabooby


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## Snow (18/5/08)

Gough said:


> G'day Tony,
> 
> All those sugar options you mentioned will produce good results. In a Tripel style though I reckon you can't go past plain ol' cane sugar. I'm a believer in adding it after fermentation has commenced for best results in high ABV beers, but it is up to you. Many others swear by boiling it. I'm sure it'll be a good beer either way mate!
> 
> Shawn.



Gough,

your method interests me. I have thought of doing this, but didn't quite know how to work out the gravities. Can you give us some more detail regarding how far into fermentation you add the sugar and how you work out what your OG would have been? Also, how do you prepare the sugar? Boil it then cool it first?

Cheers - Snow


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## neonmeate (18/5/08)

i get my stuff from alimento deli in summer hill (smith st) - you can also buy it in annandale at that deli in johnston st, various other import-foodie sort of places - the whole billingtons range is great, dark muscovado, molasses sugar too, great in porters/stouts.


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## Tony (18/5/08)

wow........ great info folks.

Scott......... i have a bag of caraaroma waiting for duty. I have the grain bit worked out, just the sugars are a bit of a mystery.

I was planning half/half cane / brown sugar dor the dubbel and plain old cane sugar for the tripple so im close.

will definatly look into the muscovado..... another option is the deamerera sugar. I have used that in english ales and it has a great profile.

keep the thoughts comming.

ps. Killer Rx4........... what temperature did you find worked best with the yeast?

cheers


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## Gough (18/5/08)

Snow said:


> Gough,
> 
> your method interests me. I have thought of doing this, but didn't quite know how to work out the gravities. Can you give us some more detail regarding how far into fermentation you add the sugar and how you work out what your OG would have been? Also, how do you prepare the sugar? Boil it then cool it first?
> 
> Cheers - Snow



The easiest way is to calculate an OG with sugar and without. If you are adding the sugar later in the ferment subtract the sugar's contribution from your OG and aim for that figure pre-sugar to balance your recipe. Add the sugar in one or more additions depending on how much you are adding by %. In our Grand Cru for example we add the sugar in two hits on days two and three of fermentation. Our Anniversary Ale likewise. 

As for preparing the sugar, you can either dissolve it in boiling water immediately before adding or bring it to the boil in solution carefully stirring to avoid caramelisation - especially in Tripel styles or paler styles generally. I guess you could try cooling it if you wanted to. In our beers we are happy to raise the ferment temps a little across the course of fermentation, especially with the Belgians, so add it hot. I have done it at home simply adding it to the fermenter on day 2-3 by pouring it in the top with good results.

Hope that helps,

Shawn.


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## neonmeate (18/5/08)

re this yeast: careful with 3787 at this time of year, this yeast will go extremely slowly if you let it drop below 17-18 - but will eventually get there, and is fairly clean and malty that way, which i like as a nice alternative to the hot temp peaches and plums stuff.

demerara is very similar in flavour to light muscovado, only a bit paler and less intense. with demerara the CSR stuff is equally as good as the billingtons, it's imported from mauritius and unrefined. i did an 11% saison with a lot of demerara a few years back that worked out very well. it won't overwhelm a pale beer like darker sugars can.


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## goatherder (18/5/08)

Shawn, what's the theory behind adding the sugar after the fermentation has kicked off? Is it to give the yeast a chance to chew the maltose before they get onto the easy stuff?


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## Tony (18/5/08)

i always thought it was so the yeast could get a better start in a lower gravity wort and once it was fifing on all 8 cylinders, you fed it more.

Im also very interested in trying this. 

Shawn?


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## bakkerman (18/5/08)

I have found this recipe useful for making your own candy sugar, served me well in my Rochefort clone.

candy


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## Steve Lacey (18/5/08)

The theory behind adding sugar later, as I understand it, is that when yeast are in a high osmotic environment it causes malfunctions in meiosis (or is it mitosis :blink: ) and certain genes can be activated or deactivated during cell division resulting in changes to the production of certain enzymes involved in biochemical pathways and, hence, production of more junk byproducts like acetate. By trickle feeding the sugar you reduce this osmotic stress load and have healthier yeast. Which is essentially the same as the last explanation or two with a bit more detail on the mechanism.

Personally I believe a lot of the potential problem is overcome by adding a large starter of healthy yeast (less requirement for division in the stressful wort).


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## Tony (18/5/08)

Ahhhh i got something right tonight.......... thats something.

I was planning on a dubbel first with the yeast.... say around the 1.066-68 mark...... adding some sugas as it goes, and then dumping a big 1.080 trippel on the yeast cake.

But may feed this slowly too.

cheers folks.


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## kevo (18/5/08)

I made a Belgian strong dark (on extract) at the end of last year.

I made invert sugar from Graeme Sanders' recipe - really just toffee - about 10%.

Split the wort into four equal lots. Pitched into one of the mini-worts - which went nuts, enough yeast for the whole lot in only a quarter of the wort - then added another quarter every 24 hours. Raised the temp a bit towards the end and it seemed to finish up ok. I used Safbrew T58 yeast.

Tried it last December when it was very young and it seemed good - will open another bottle in the next two weeks.

Heard the process on the Brewing Network Rochefort show. Makes great sense to help the yeast cope with such a big o.g. Watching the daily rise and fall in fermentation id pretty cool too.

Kev


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## Gough (18/5/08)

Steve Lacey said:


> The theory behind adding sugar later, as I understand it, is that when yeast are in a high osmotic environment it causes malfunctions in meiosis (or is it mitosis :blink: ) and certain genes can be activated or deactivated during cell division resulting in changes to the production of certain enzymes involved in biochemical pathways and, hence, production of more junk byproducts like acetate. By trickle feeding the sugar you reduce this osmotic stress load and have healthier yeast. Which is essentially the same as the last explanation or two with a bit more detail on the mechanism.
> 
> Personally I believe a lot of the potential problem is overcome by adding a large starter of healthy yeast (less requirement for division in the stressful wort).



It is one of those 'it depends' type questions... Some swear by adding all fermentables before pitching and others swear that adding the sugar during fermentation keeps the yeast happier, stops them gorging too early on the 'junk food', and helps keep the 'hot' alcohols down in high gravity worts. I'm a subscriber to that theory. The 'junk byproducts' really stand out in styles like Tripels and so the later addition of the sugar is worth the effort IMO. Each to their own of course  I recently brewed a high gravity Belgian style at home as a 'prototype' for a new Murray's beer and added the sugar during fermentation. Our winter seasonal to be released shortly on the other hand is a touch over 8% ABV and we added the dark brown sugar during the boil as we wanted a little bit of warmth in the finish of the beer. Different strokes and all that... In my experience it does make a difference in practice, and we are using sufficient quantities of very healthy yeast, pitched into well oxygenated worts.

Good luck with it Tony,

Shawn.


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## Steve Lacey (18/5/08)

Shawn, you have more experience at comparing the two approaches than me so I certainly wouldn't argue that it makes a difference in practice. The main point of my post was to give a cursory explanation of the biochemical mechanism behind the theory. I also meant to say that the big healthy starter probably only works up to a certain gravity, maybe 1.070 or thereabouts. Beyond that I would definitely expect there to be benefits from a trickle feed.

Come to think of it, a tripel I made last year with all the sugar in the boil, while tasting pretty clean early on, seemed to have developed a bit more alcohol heat when I tried it a week or so ago. Not sure what that means ...maybe it has dried out a little and the higher alcohols are just more noticeable now.


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## Jazman (18/5/08)

raw sugar


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## KillerRx4 (18/5/08)

Tony said:


> ps. Killer Rx4........... what temperature did you find worked best with the yeast?



I aim for maintaining 18 deg from pitching until active fermentation then let it go to wherever it gets naturally & then maintain that temp until finish. It usually gets up to 24-26 by the end.

Im keen to try incremental feeding of sugars, maybe next batch.


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## TidalPete (18/5/08)

Jazman said:


> raw sugar



+1 :super: 

TP :beer:


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## pmolou (18/5/08)

i'm also making a belgian soon and have dark candi rocks and have been trying to find out what taste they give to a brew say 
3kg liquid malt pale
700grams dark candi 
abbey II 1762 yeast
goldings hops

does this give a caramel or raisony flavour or what kind of flavour can i expect from dark candi sugar


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## goomboogo (19/5/08)

Neonmate, thanks for the heads up on the Billingtons but can you expand on your comments on the Rochefort candy sugar?


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## newguy (19/5/08)

For Tripels, I've added straight white table sugar to the boil, but reading about the reasons for adding it to the fermenter makes me want to try that.

For Dubbels and Dark Strongs, I've made my own dark candi sugar. It's a little tiring, but it works really well. The finished product has a classic rum & raisin flavour that carries through into the beer.

Procedure:
- Measure out 2kg of white table sugar into a large SS frying pan.
- Add 1 tsp of citric acid crystals.
- Place on the stove over low-moderate heat. On my electric stove, 1 = lowest setting and 10 is the highest. I adjust the heat to lie at about 3-4.
- Stir like mad! Seriously, just stir & stir & stir using a flat bottomed spoon or spatula so that you can scrape the bottom of the pan. The dry sugar will slowly start to get gummy and will eventually get very gummy and thick, very much like cookie dough. At this point, stirring is very difficult.
- Keep stirring - the mixture will turn into a liquid and stirring gets much easier. I keep going until it turns a nice medium copper colour.
- Remove from heat and pour onto some aluminum foil to cool.

In all the references I've consulted, temperature is a big issue when creating invert/candi/whatever sugar. They recommend using a special candymaker's thermometer to ensure that your sugar hits the right temperature. I think that a non-contact IR thermometer would work well. Since I don't have one of these thermometers, I don't try to make light coloured candi sugar. That's why I just use sucrose for Tripels.

If you've never tried this, give it a shot. Seriously, you get flavours from this stuff that you just can't get from any kind of brown or unprocessed sugar.


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## neonmeate (19/5/08)

goomboogo said:


> NeonmEate, thanks for the heads up on the Billingtons but can you expand on your comments on the Rochefort candy sugar?



yeah, firstly rochefort don't use candi sugar, they use "cassonade brune" which is a type of unrefined brown beet sugar. so it is really different to either the candi syrup or the rocks you can get, which are types of caramelised sugar (made from refined sugar)(although i am not sure about the syrup). so it's not candi sugar and doesn't have that toffee/caramel flavour. it has an extremely rich brown sugar sort of taste, except as i said before quite irony/earthy (because the unrefined flavour elements are from beets rather than cane, i'm guessing), which gives quite a unique flavour in the beer. 

i havent tried the syrup yet but want to.... havent tried candi-fying me own either. i have tried the rocks and they are quite subtle in flavour and colour. they taste kind of like crystallised cocacola to me.


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## warrenlw63 (19/5/08)

Gough said:


> Mmmm... Muscovado... That is a nice sugar for the style.
> 
> Shawn.



:lol: Shawn why do I get a mental picture of Ainsley Harriott with that statement?

Getting back to the original question from Tony all of the above should be good but I reckon half the fun is experimenting and seeing what you like.

For tripels any pale sugar is good, in other words plain old white table sugar, dextrose or even raw sugar. Dubbels would benefit from less sugar and more character from the specialty grains. NM's suggestion of Muscovado sounds really awesome. I've used it in a couple of British Ales and found it to be really nice and rummy.

My personal fave, though I can't lay claim to having delved in many sugars as others is Chinese Yellow Lump which is cheap and seems to work nicely in either pale or darker Belgians.

Like Shawn said it's more a case of avoiding the hotter Belgian fermentation byproducts in excess more than anything. Having used Wyeast 3787 I can say that this will occur if the yeast is handled badly (like I did with it).

Adding it to the secondary sounds a great idea. I've only done this once when I bought some brown Candi Crystals back from Europe several years ago and added them to a La Chouffe clone. Basically I primed the keg with the sugar component and bled the gas off until the secondary fermentation had subsided then forced carbed to get the correct carbonation level.

Seemed to give a smoother type of finish to a higher gravity Belgian.

Moreover Tony I reckon the biggest mistake (I've made personally) is attacking them way too early. Most stronger Belgians I've done (say over 6%) have benefitted from just sitting there in storage for at least 3 months.

BTW NM's experiences with sugars are valid. After having sampled his Gouden Carolus clone I was totally blown away. What a great example.  

Warren -


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## devo (19/5/08)

warrenlw63 said:


> Moreover Tony I reckon the biggest mistake (I've made personally) is attacking them way too early. Most stronger Belgians I've done (say over 6%) have benefitted from just sitting there in storage for at least 3 months.
> 
> 
> Warren -




Totally agree. I opened my last bottle of Dubbel on the weekend which had been sitting for approximately 4 months. I would have to say it really only just started to settle out and was a more balanced beer than say a couple of months earlier. I'm thinking of letting my next batch sit for about 6 months before hooking in.


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## bierbaron (19/5/08)

hey guys 
what sort of malts are you using?
i want to brew a triple/blonde, was thinking just pilsener malt with a bit of cara munich or somthing, with a high mash temp.??


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## warrenlw63 (19/5/08)

bierbaron said:


> hey guys
> what sort of malts are you using?
> i want to brew a triple/blonde, was thinking just pilsener malt with a bit of cara munich or somthing, with a high mash temp.??



Hey bierbaron. Lower mash temp is better (64-65 degrees). You want a dry and well-attenuated beer. Full bodied Belgians and their lower hopping rates make for flabby beers otherwise.

Warren -


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## bierbaron (19/5/08)

alright thanks warren


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## shonky (19/5/08)

Re: adding sucrose to the primary or secondary, I am currently studying yeast (Ballarat brewing course) and been reading about the inhibition of maltose up-take caused by high levels of sucrose. My understanding of this mechanism is that high levels of glucose (sucrose is converted to glucose and fructose outside the yeast cell membrane) have an inhibitory effect on maltose uptake. Apparently this was found to be of particular concern with continuous fermentation systems. The theory being that if sucrose is added back in as a fermentable after the yeast has switched to maltose up-take, this stops maltose being able to be brought into the cell, potentially permanently. (Don't have the reference with me but IIRC was in Briggs, Brewing Science and Practice.)

The result of which being unfermented maltose at the end of fermentation.

It seems like a few of you are having good experiences adding sugar to the primary, and osmotic pressure in high-gravity worts is obviously still a problem which this gets around, but just thought I'd throw a bit of theory into this debate in case people see stuck ferments with this method. (the yeast-cell up-take mechanisms are controlled largely through gene expression and therefore it could be expected that the extent to which this is a problem would be highly strain dependant).

I have no practical experience with this and it could be that this is a case of too much theory with no practical significance on a homebrew scale and would be really interested if anyone can either confirm or deny my understanding (I have an essay due in which is concerned with this subject. Yeast is one helluva strange and complicated organism - :blink: )


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## Gough (19/5/08)

shonky said:


> Re: adding sucrose to the primary or secondary, I am currently studying yeast (Ballarat brewing course) and been reading about the inhibition of maltose up-take caused by high levels of sucrose. My understanding of this mechanism is that high levels of glucose (sucrose is converted to glucose and fructose outside the yeast cell membrane) have an inhibitory effect on maltose uptake. Apparently this was found to be of particular concern with continuous fermentation systems. The theory being that if sucrose is added back in as a fermentable after the yeast has switched to maltose up-take, this stops maltose being able to be brought into the cell, potentially permanently. (Don't have the reference with me but IIRC was in Briggs, Brewing Science and Practice.)
> 
> The result of which being unfermented maltose at the end of fermentation.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting info there shonky. Just to confuse things even further... :lol: We only use sugar in high gravity worts here at Murray's, and for that matter I generally only use sugar in high gravity worts at home. Using the late addition method I've not had any attenuation issues. Indeed given you are often looking for better attenuation/drier finish in beers with sucrose additions we are particularly conscious of achieving our desired terminal gravities in beers like the Grand Cru. Excise issues also complicate the matter. That said I'm not doubting stuck ferments could be an issue. Like many things in brewing there are many ways to achieve the desired outcome I guess  Maybe Tony and a few of the others posting here who are maybe looking to use this method could post their results? Maybe if there are any issues with beers not finishing fermentation as expected we could see whether the late sucrose additions are at fault in themselves or whether there were other extenuating circumstances? In my experience here at Murray's and at home for that matter the results have always been very positive in terms of what we are trying to achieve by adding the sugar during early-mid fermentation in high gravity worts.

Good discussion this  (Apart from being compared to Ainsley Harriot!! Thanks for nothing Warren  )

Shawn.


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## warrenlw63 (19/5/08)

Gough said:


> (Apart from being compared to Ainsley Harriot!! Thanks for nothing Warren  )
> 
> Shawn.



Was the Hmmm... Muscavado bit.

I can remember Ainsley saying it more like;

mmmmmm....... Mussssscavvvvadoooooo. :lol: 

Warren -


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## Tony (19/5/08)

The one belgian i have brewed in the bast being a Trippel............ had all the sugars added in late in the kettle. It was white table sugar that i enverted and turned into rock candy............ thge colour of pee.

It was a 1.080 beer and the yeast did a great job untill it got to 1.030 and it stopped dead.

I had to heat it up to 22 or 23 deg for 4 weeks to get it down to the 1.01something range. 

It won a few awards but i do recal it having a fair bit of warm alcahol, that gave you a shocker of a headache if you drank more than one bottle.

It also took 6 months plus to settle down and be enjoyable.

yeast was the WLP870 (i think) golden ale yeast.

I didnt make starters back then and id say i probably underpitched to buggery and stressed the yeast to hell in a 1.080 beer.

i think i used 12% sugar.

got a 2nd place at beerfest and a silver medal at ANAWBS so cant have been half bad.

cheers


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## dataphage (26/5/08)

Golden Syrup off the supermarket shelf is invert sugar in a small amount of water (20% ish?).

I'm going to give this a go next time out.


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## Tony (12/6/08)

Well the Belgian trippel is going mad.

I started it off on sunday night at 16 deg with 3787 and the temp has been increased gradually up to 20 not on thursday. Its pumped about 1/4 cup of yeast through the blow off tube to the bottle so far and tonight............. tonight i added 500g of raw sugar, heated and disolved with a bit of water. 

temp went up to 20.5 and within 20 min the blow off bottle was boiling. The tube is cull of yeast and froth and its blocking up......... building pressure and then...... it boils with this huge gush of gas. Its great 

will let it go 2 days and add the other half kg.

Im really looking forward to this one.

I have a Belgian Dubbel in a cube to go on the cake (could be scary) and im going to convert 750g of demerara sugar in 2 batches to dark candy sugar on the stove.

my question is......... does it just have to be boiled up with the acid and cooled a bit before adding as a liquid. Im thinking if the raise in temp is to determine the drying qualities of the suagr and i dont give a rats for that. I just want to fed it to the yeast.

cheers


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## Weizguy (12/6/08)

dataphage said:


> Golden Syrup off the supermarket shelf is invert sugar in a small amount of water (20% ish?).
> 
> I'm going to give this a go next time out.


Are you gonna use the Aussie product or the imported Lyle's product?
Apparently there is a huge difference. Too much of our Oz treacley stuff will detract and mask any beer flavours you may otherwise have been hoping to highlight.
Never used Lyle's but next time I wanna beer with Golden syrup, I'll give CSR the flick.

Alternate opinions will be wrong.
Seth out  

BTW re: your invert sugar experiment, you might ask MHB about some invertase enzyme, and some instructions.


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