# Summit



## Danwood (9/9/12)

> Pedigree
> Cross pollination of Lexus and an unspecified male; derived from numerous plants including Zeus, Nugget and male USDA varieties
> 
> Brewing Usage
> ...


*MOD: *Post edited by Lord Raja Goomba I, original post below:

I've just been boiling up 1oz Summit (1.5 litre water) as an experiment at the end of a brew day.

I've heard some reviews of the variety as having a garlic/onion slant to it....SHIT YES !!

Be a little careful with this one, in my humble opinion.

In this very vigorous boil, over 15 mins, my whole house smelled like I was making a lasagne, or other garlicy recipe.

It does have a grapefruit/mandarin quality...but during this intensive test that was eclipsed by the garlicy tones.

The hops were super fresh form Yakima Valley Hops...not doubt about the quality IMHO.

Just thought I'd share...

Dan


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## brettprevans (9/9/12)

Sounds like Chinese hops. h34r: 

be interesting to hear other peoples reviews.


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## Spiesy (9/9/12)

I have half a pound of Summit myself, but after trying Mikkeller's Summit IPA, I am now scared to use them... not a great tasting hop, imo. I didn't get anything garlic from it though, more medicinal - like cough syrup vibes... 

Also tried the Green Flash Imperial IPA on tap today @ The Terminus in Clifton Hill, I guessed Summit from the taste and smell, and from the little research I did online today, sounds like I'm right. It was quite nice in the Green Flash, along with Nugget... to the strength of 100IBU (allegedly). From this beer I got more grapefruit vibes than I got in the Mikkeller... I'm not familiar with Nugget, so not sure what this brought to the table.

I know Cocko brewed a SMASH with Summit and wasn't happy with the outcome.


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## Spiesy (9/9/12)

Danwood said:


> I've just been boiling up 1oz Summit (1.5 litre water) as an experiment at the end of a brew day.


I'm puzzled by this experiment... did you just throw the concoction out once boiling was done?


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## Arghonaut (9/9/12)

Doh.. just ordered half a pound of the stuff from Yakima. Anyone made a good beer with it?


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## Spiesy (9/9/12)

I reckon you could make a decent APA with it by dialling back the Green Flash Imperial IPA recipe... if you can find it.

I wonder how it would go as a substitute for Centennial?


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## Arghonaut (9/9/12)

I was thinking of doing a 10 min apa with it, just found a post from someone who did it allready....

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=48791

The thought of garlic/onion is putting me off it completely!


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## Spiesy (9/9/12)

Yeah that description is certainly off-putting. Keep us posted with what you do with it.


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## Arghonaut (9/9/12)

Reading on US forums results are really mixed, people making awesome beer with it one batch and onion beer the next. Really strange. Some people suggest using it only for bittering and/or aroma stops any onion flavour, the onion also seems to fade with time if you get it.

I'll still crank out an apa of some sorts with it.... but it just moved waaaaaay down the to brew list.


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## Danwood (9/9/12)

Spiesy said:


> I'm puzzled by this experiment... did you just throw the concoction out once boiling was done?



I vac my hops in 2oz/56g packs and only used half a pack alongside Cascade and a touch of Nelson Sauvin in an AIPA.
Couldn't be bothered re-sealing it and I've been wondering about the original point since I bought the Summit.
I like Summit, but it might only take a slightly heavy hand to bring out the onion character.
And, yes, I threw it out. 70 IBUs is plenty in my AIPA, and I didn't fancy that off flavour anyway.
Maybe a very intense boil brings it out ?


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## Nick JD (9/9/12)

I find it's great in my Shallot and Oyster Dubbel.


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## GrumpyPaul (9/9/12)

Oh oh. Guess what I am using right at this moment...

And guess where I got it from. (thanks dan)

i'm doing

20g @ 20 min
20g @ 10
12 @ flameout

Will report back how it goes.


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## Danwood (9/9/12)

I should say I have used it in an APA with Cascade in competition and didn't get any onion remarks.
That was Pale Ale Mania comp, Melbourne. It was used in moderation and I think enhanced the profile quite well.
It placed exactly mid-table, and other malt related faults were high lighted over the hops.
I don't want to put anyone off Summit, just be careful. I'm certainly no expert, but I might err from extended boil times with it in future. 
Mine is 16.8AA, so larger and later additions might be the go ?


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## Lecterfan (9/9/12)

I won't use it again, although it ended up being drinkable and other people didn't pick up the same flavour(s).

Discussion here, including a link to BN podcast where they use it as an early bittering addition.


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## Cocko (9/9/12)

Spiesy said:


> I know Cocko brewed a SMASH with Summit and wasn't happy with the outcome.



I am not the best at describing flavours but I know what taste shit.

Summit.

That said, I have never thought that a bittering hop really affected the flavour enough to care what I use.. 

I brewed my house APA which is about 3 years in so have it down to a fine art - Bittered with summit instead of chinook and the difference was noticeable, to say the least.

So, in my brief experience with it, and as spiesy said - I did a smash with it to find out what it was about...

Flavour alone = NA!
Flavour combo = May work, could work with Cents or Amarillo if done right - no experience here tho..
Bittering = smooth, first time I have experienced/noticed a 'smooth' bittering hop, due to knowledge and experience with the recipe.

Anyway, 2 the far gone cents!

\m/


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## Adam Howard (9/9/12)

I liked it in the Mikkeller. Used a fair bunch with Centennial in an American Barleywine and am loving it. Good hop I reckon.


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## ashley_leask (10/9/12)

I have a batch of 2011 Summit from Niko. When I first opened the sealed pack, massive onion aroma to the point I wondered what the hell I was going to do with it all. None of the onion came through in the beer though, the flavour I got was citrus / grapefruit with something sharper and higher if that makes any sense, almost like pineapple. I liked it, and I'll keep using it for now.

Must be one of those hops that varies a lot between crops / farms. I only tried Simcoe once and don't know if I will again. All I got was the taste of shallots which I like in carbonara sauce, in beer not so much.


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## Nick JD (10/9/12)

Carlsberg says: _Beer with an onion-like off-flavour is found to contain two unusual sulphur compounds: (1-methylethyl)-thiirane and 2-mercapto-3-methyl-1-butanol. The off-flavour is attributable to the latter, previously unknown compound. The methods used are: extraction of beer with trichlorofluoromethane, GC analyses of extractives and reference compounds, using a sulphur sensitive flame photometric detector, and GC-MS. Both of the new sulphur constituents are synthesized and their structures ascertained by NMR and MS. _

http://www.springerlink.com/content/94v0qk1m3262v5q7/


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## Florian (10/9/12)

Slightly unrelated, but when I was in Berlin last October there was hops flowering all over the city, huge bushes in parks, along railway lines and even outside night clubs.

I have smelt a few of them and they all smelled very distinctively of garlic.

Always wondered what they would taste like in a beer, but as I don't brew in Germany and can't take them back thought I'll never find out.

Might try some summit now :lol:


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## jphowman (11/9/12)

Nick JD said:


> Carlsberg says: _Beer with an onion-like off-flavour is found to contain two unusual sulphur compounds: (1-methylethyl)-thiirane and 2-mercapto-3-methyl-1-butanol. The off-flavour is attributable to the latter, previously unknown compound. The methods used are: extraction of beer with *trichlorofluoromethane*, GC analyses of extractives and reference compounds, using a sulphur sensitive flame photometric detector, and GC-MS. Both of the new sulphur constituents are synthesized and their structures ascertained by NMR and MS. _
> 
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/94v0qk1m3262v5q7/




Too much refrigeration with CFCs?

I have a vague recollection of an off-hand comment on the BN that the onion/cat-piss flavors from Simcoe are the result of the hops being left on the bine a little too long. It increases the alpha but begins to produce the undesirable flavors. It could be the same with summit.


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## manticle (11/9/12)

Cocko said:


> I am not the best at describing flavours but I know what taste shit.
> 
> Summit.
> 
> That said, I have never thought that a bittering hop really affected the flavour enough to care what I use..



Good to know you have changed this opinion.


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## jameson (11/9/12)

There is a ipa recipe on home brew talk where the dude says his Summit and Amarillo is the best ever and it took him many attempts to get it. With other combos not hitting the mark. For me it was mouth puckering tangerines which I thought was very different. Maybe in a lager?


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## Bada Bing Brewery (11/9/12)

Cocko said:


> I am not the best at describing flavours but I know what taste shit.
> 
> Summit.
> 
> ...


Cocko - so you would use it as a bittering hop in general (a bit unsure from your post)???? I've got a truckload of the shit ...
cheers
BBB


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## amiddler (11/9/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Cocko - so you would use it as a bittering hop in general (a bit unsure from your post)???? I've got a truckload of the shit ...
> cheers
> BBB




A garlic/onion flavour. Should make it into an Ale then have an Italian night with heaps of garlic bread. No one will pick the flavour as coming from the beer, just think its part of the cuisine. 

Summit Bread, Now there is a thought.


Drew


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## Bada Bing Brewery (11/9/12)

Drew said:


> A garlic/onion flavour. Should make it into an Ale then have an Italian night with heaps of garlic bread. No one will pick the flavour as coming from the beer, just think its part of the cuisine.
> 
> Summit Bread, Now there is a thought.
> 
> ...



Ah the gauntlet is thrown ... and I shall take on that challenge. I will do a spag bog beer ..... or has someone already beat me to it.
BBB


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## Cocko (11/9/12)

manticle said:


> Good to know you have changed this opinion.



Agreed, I welcome it.



Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Cocko - so you would use it as a bittering hop in general (a bit unsure from your post)???? I've got a truckload of the shit ...
> cheers
> BBB



I will be using it in my house APA for bittering from now on, that is for sure - the rest of the recipe is all centennial and cascade and it works well....

Will I bitter _anything_ with it? No. Thats what I am saying - changing from chinook to summit as a bittering hop in my house APA, which is a beer I know better than my own hand! = I could taste it and it was a 'smoother' bittering than chinook... First time ever I have noticed switching up bittering hops! Sad really.... 

Sorry BBB, thats all I have, I only post from what I know... and I also know, dont brew a smash with it!

Cheers! :icon_cheers:


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## dr K (11/9/12)

Hops can (as noted earlier) dispaly an onion or garlic character esp. when fresh.
Olfactoractors group smells, for example milk, cheese, yoghurt and even sour cream fall into the lactoregonsa grouping and onions, leeks, garlic and you guessed it hops fall into the aolilupungic grouping.
Summit is (derr) a high alpha hop but does have high co-humulones as well, I understand from friends its a damn fine bittering hop.

K


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## Bada Bing Brewery (11/9/12)

Cocko said:


> Agreed, I welcome it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Cocko - care to share your house APA recipe???
BBB


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## Cocko (11/9/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Thanks Cocko - care to share your house APA recipe???
> BBB



Sure mate, a very simple APA, nothing special:

Note: grain bill often swings depending specialty stocks, carapils, carared etc..

Hopping never changes. Hop addition times are ACTUAL, allowing for NC to bitter it more..

Anyway, _another _APA...


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## Arghonaut (12/9/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> I will do a spag bog beer ..... or has someone already beat me to it.
> BBB



A spag bog beer..... When people say summit tastes like sh*t I don't think that's what they had in mind.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (12/9/12)

Arghonaut said:


> A spag bog beer..... When people say summit tastes like sh*t I don't think that's what they had in mind.



:icon_offtopic: Just for fun I am going to do this with a small 5L batch. I'll chuck the spag bog into the boil at about 10 mins and see what happens. 
BBB


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## Bada Bing Brewery (12/9/12)

Cocko said:


> Sure mate, a very simple APA, nothing special:
> 
> Note: grain bill often swings depending specialty stocks, carapils, carared etc..
> 
> ...



Thanks Cocko. I have no centennial - sub with chinook maybe???


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## Arghonaut (12/9/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> :icon_offtopic: Just for fun I am going to do this with a small 5L batch. I'll chuck the spag bog into the boil at about 10 mins and see what happens.
> BBB



Once mine arrives i think I'll do a few 1 litre test runs with ldme. Do a 60 minute only, 20 minute only, 5 minute only, and a 60/20/5 addition one. Ferment them in 2 litre soft drink bottles with Us05, bottle in a longneck and have a tasting session a few weeks later. Good excuse for a drink.... Maybe i should make it six tallies....sure the last couple would taste ok then


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## Spiesy (12/9/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> Thanks Cocko. I have no centennial - sub with chinook maybe???


Cocko's APA is very, very nice.

Cocko, what are your thoughts of subbing Summit with Centennial?

Bada Bing - really, the Centennial and Crystal combo is a large part of this beer.


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## Cocko (12/9/12)

Spiesy said:


> Cocko's APA is very, very nice.
> 
> Cocko, what are your thoughts of subbing Summit with Centennial?
> 
> Bada Bing - really, the Centennial and Crystal combo is a large part of this beer.



Thank you kind sir.

Do you mean, sub Centennial with Summit? Or bitter with Centennial?


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## Wolfman (12/9/12)

What size is the batch Cocko?


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## Malted (12/9/12)

Wolfman said:


> What size is the batch Cocko?





Work on the percentages and batch size is irrelevent. If it is an odd batch size at say 57L and you brew 40L then the batch size info is no good to you. Brewing software can cope with %'s.

You'll need more info than that to replicate his beer.

For these same reasons we would ask how many g/L do you use at flameout or dry hop with. The actual number of grams he uses is relative to his batch size, if your batch size is different you'd use different amounts of hops. We'd also want to know what yeast he uses at what temp, what temp he mashes at and for how long, what OG he aims for, what FG (not important if you know the mash temps), what IBU's he aims for (given that he is no chilling he expects higher IBU's and thus puts fewer hops in). 

Ah heck, my advice is, just ask him for the FULL recipe.


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## Wolfman (12/9/12)

Malted said:


> Ah heck, my advice is, just ask him for the FULL recipe.




Would have been easier just to type this yer?


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## Malted (12/9/12)

Wolfman said:


> Would have been easier just to type this yer?



The text above that line explains some of the reasons why the full recipe details would be better for you...


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## NickB (12/9/12)

YAH, just specify the % of grains and % of hops per recipe. Easy to scale. Don't escalate this argument again, just do it. Easy as. Or. Sumfink. Ahem.


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## Cocko (12/9/12)

Current master recipe posted here Wolfman and BBB...

Sorry, grain bill above is from a batch I upped due to efficiency woes on the new rig...

Anyway, weren't we talking about Summit? Oh yeah, great bittering hop.


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## sim (12/9/12)

franks said:


> I have a vague recollection of an off-hand comment on the BN that the onion/cat-piss flavors from Simcoe are the result of the hops being left on the bine a little too long. It increases the alpha but begins to produce the undesirable flavors. It could be the same with summit.



Home grown Chinook, left a lil' longer than I should have, and used fresh (wet) produced a distinct onion/shallot flavour in my harvest beer this year. Faded with time. 

Seems consistant with the above, and perhaps Florians comment about hops growing in parks around Berlin if they had been hanging around a bit too long.

Never found the onion flavour with Simcoe, love that hop!


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## seemax (12/9/12)

Used summit (from Niko) twice now in my Rye IPA ... bittering, late hops and dry hops... both times the result has been good with no obvious onion flavour.

I did mix with cascade though on both occasions.

No complaints really... nice citrus twang and smooth like Magnum.


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## Bada Bing Brewery (12/9/12)

:icon_offtopic: I would just like to pause and appaude Cocko for his balanced and informative posts during this thread.
You truly are an AHB poster boy, and offically my hero (you c*@t....)
Cheers
BBB


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## Cocko (12/9/12)

Bada Bing Brewery said:


> :icon_offtopic: I would just like to pause and appaude Cocko for his balanced and informative posts during this thread.
> You truly are an AHB poster boy, and offically my hero (you c*@t....)
> Cheers
> BBB



I must warn readers that there is a swear coming up in the next sentence, if use of profanity offends you please do not read any further in to this post, TY.

OI! BBB, **** off.  

That is all, carry on.


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## malt_shovel (4/4/13)

Anyone used 2012 summit hops from yakimavalley?
i was wondering if the crop they have is suffering this onion problem.
cheers in advance


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (4/4/13)

citymorgue2 said:


> Sounds like Chinese hops. h34r:
> 
> be interesting to hear other peoples reviews.


Ya Ki Mah Varrey Hop.


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## rosswill (20/4/13)

malt_shovel said:


> Anyone used 2012 summit hops from yakimavalley?
> i was wondering if the crop they have is suffering this onion problem.
> cheers in advance


I've used the 2012 twice now. Lovely hop. Absolutely no onion or garlic. I think you just need a steady hand. I did a simple 25 litre pilsener and it was fantastic. Bittered 60 mins with 10g, 15g at 15 mins, and 15g at 1 min. Crisp summer sipper.


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## Arghonaut (1/7/13)

Made an apa with summit and zythos, 2011 Yakima, tiny bit for bittering and the rest cube hopped. Tasted awesome in the fermenter, great citrus. Kegged it last night and tried a sample of the leftovers and spat the vile garlic beast it had become out. Cleaning the fermenter it was giving off the nicest citrus aroma..... hoping it will come good after a few weeks in the keg.


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## Arghonaut (3/7/13)

Tried the APA again now that its carbed up. The strong garlic taste has faded a fair bit, i managed to finish the glass. It still has a very odd taste. If you crushed up some lychees, green grapes and spring onions together you'd just about have it. I'll try a glass every week or two and hope it improves.


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## Arghonaut (22/7/13)

Had another glass last night, garlic seemed to have nearly completely faded, gives it a background savoury bite that is almost enjoyable now. I gave some to the mrs and she enjoyed it. Its pretty light for an APA, no big citrus flavours coming through,a bit of grapefruit, lychees and pine.


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## Danwood (22/7/13)

I don't think I'll use it again. There are just too many 'safer' similar alternatives


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## rosswill (3/8/13)

Don't be afraid of this hop. It is really quite nice, and as I found out, quite forgiving. Its a bit of a story....
I was planning to back to back beers, both 25 litres. One 10 minute Summit Pisener, and a Bluetongue Lager. I had planned to use one 50g addition of Summit at 10 minutes. The wort came to the boil, and without thinking, I threw in the hops. While they were still in the air heading for the boiler, I realised my mistake. At 17% apha, his is going to be one bitter beer. What to do? I ended up reducing the boil to 40 minutes. I then did the second (Bluetongue grain bill) and did not add any bittering hops, just 20g at 10 mins, and 30g at flame out. I then blended the two beers into two fermenters.
Anyhoo, to cut a long story sort, I had two and a half kegs of Mistake Summit Lager. I am just finishing the first keg, and it is a very nice beer. Again, absolutely no onion or garlic, just a floral, stone fruit type flavour this hop throws. Disaster averted. One and a half kegs to go.
I will definitely have Summit as one of my regular beer hops, but I migt have to give them a bit of a break before I do my next one.


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## jyo (3/8/13)

I have half a pound of the stuff but now I'm too scared to try it after reading this thread.


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## Samuel Adams (3/8/13)

I've been using it for bittering with good results, no garlic etc just clean bittering.
I may try it late in an APA or IPA as I still have heaps myself.


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## jyo (3/8/13)

Cheers for that, SA. I might try it in a blonde as a single addition to see how it goes.


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## Arghonaut (3/8/13)

I've used it a few times bittering only and it's great. Even the cube hopped APA I did above has come good, won't repeat it though. Bittering only.


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## malt_shovel (10/8/13)

I am nearing the end of a IPA with millennium and summit late and dry hopped with summit only. One of my nicest IPA. Plenty of ripe citrus fruit. It contributed an almost sweetness to a fairly heavily hopped beer. I will definitely get more given it's price compared to other more popular american hops.


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (10/8/13)

My APA/IPA for Tas bottle swap has summit with mosaic and citra as a single late no chill hop addition. All reports have been pretty positive.


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