# The Evolution Of Vb



## Feldon (18/2/11)

Been following the current thread 'VB Hop Schedule Please' which began by asking what hopping should be applied to a proposed VB clone.

Reaction to the original post caused a flurry of interest and responses have generally taken two paths - answers to the posed question, and arguments about whether brewing commercial "megaswill" like VB is a waste of time, talent and taste, and sundry other aspects relating to what has been called "shit beer".

It occurred to me that many of the respondents are possibly addressing these issues from different perspective based on there own exposure to the evolution of VB and other mainstream commercial beers.

I like many others came to home brew from the world of the commercial beers served at pubs and bottle shops - the accessible standard stuff that I bought because, well, everybody else did and it was readily available, in fact the only beer available. It was part of social culture and the people I drank with were more important than the taste of the beer providing it wasn't unpalatable. And I don't remember it being so.

But these beers have changed over time. In the days of the six o'clock swill (when pubs shut at 6pm) the rush to the bar by city office workers for a half-hour guzzle before catching the tram home was not because they were all alcoholics. It was good tasty beer that was looked forward to. Didn't Australian beers in the 60s and 70s have a good international reputation compared to other country's standard fare, and wasn't this the basis for CUB's success in taking local brands like Fosters Lager onto the world stage? (and today they are trying to do the same with VB?).

So can I pose the question : When one refers to VB do you think of the beer you can drink today, or if you are older, are your thoughts influenced by how it tasted back 'then' (whenever that was). And if you think yesterday's VB and Carlton Draught and XXXX etc etc was better than today's, what elements make the difference.

Would appreciate posters' views, especially those with experience or knowledge of brewery practices over time, but also younger posters whose opinion of modern VB would also be interesting. Thanks.


----------



## Bribie G (19/2/11)

In the mid 70s I lived in Cardiff Wales, I was one of the founding members of CAMRA and I loved Brains SA, Felinfoel, Wadworths etc. However I also had a taste for good lagers, particularly Pilsner Urquell, direct imported Carlsberg and any German beer I could get my hands on. The UK breweries were also starting to put out some strong BUL lagers such as Stella and Lamot (deceased) and they were excellent beers not to be confused with the appalling 3% versions of Harp, Carling etc. 

About that time Fosters was being imported due to the massive Australian diaspora (mostly caused by the Vietnam draft dodge but also it was a good career step to head for the UK as a lot of head offices were still there). The importers also started to bring in other brands and a couple of off licences in Cardiff started to specialise in Aussie beers - all canned in those days and some in the 26 oz oil cans. I remember drinking Fosters, Cascade Pale Ale, Tooths KB, Reschs DA and XXXX 

I had a fairly developed beer palate as stated, and I can tell you that those beers more than held their own with stronger Euro and UK beers. They were robust with a fragrant hoppiness. A couple of years later I moved to Australia to Bundaberg. There were only two beers on tap. Yes just two. XXXX which you bought from the red pubs, and Carlton from the blue pubs. Bottle shops had a fair range of packaged beer. There was no lite or mid beer. I loved the Carlton - it was a very pale beer compared to XXXX and had a refreshing bitterness - the two beers were quite different, XXXX being less hoppy and was darker and a tad sweeter. The Carlton was brewed at the old Bulimba brewery in Fortitude Valley. In the 1980s Bernie Power opened a brewery at Yatala and made standout beers, rich and hoppy compared to XXXX including some brands such as Powers Red, a Vienna style. Keep the name Powers in mind, this is going somewhere  

I stopped drinking from the early 1990s and took up again in 2001. The beer scene had changed immensely, rows of fonts in the pubs and lots of new brands - all of which seemed to be chasing each other to the bottom, with abominations like Sterling Lager and Thirsty Dog Wheat beer (the only beer that has actually made me throw up in a car park after three stubbies). Strengths were being reduced and huge amalgamations into the big 2.

I saw that Powers Bitter was still going but Fosters had taken over Yatala, sold the FV site for a squillion and built massive apartment complex - they probably got Yatala for free at the end of the day. I couldn't believe how appalling they had made Powers, virtually no flavour and maybe 60% sugar. No hop I could discern. Shortly afterwards it was discontinued due to lack of sales. Well surprise surprise. They did the same with Cairns Draught, I remember drinking it in the early 80s but by the time I got back to Cairns in 2002 I must have had about the last schooner of Cairns Draught but they had done a Powers on it and it was piss.

All the main brands seemed to have lost hop and malt character - one of the beers I still don't mind is Melbourne Bitter. I think they have cheapened the recipes and are sneakingly doing a Powers with the main brands - probably with the idea of promoting mid beers. And would the duopoly do such a thing? Well they have done it with the likes of Powers - I seriously think they will eventually kill off XXXX heavy and replace it with the nasty nasty nasty Toohey's New - and as we know they are reducing the strengths of the heavies year after year and also promoting blonde light lo carb crap.

I don't think my tastbuds are wearing out because German, Czech and UK beers taste as good to me as they always did. 
Hopefully the parallel imports by coles and Woolies will make them sit up and take notice, and maybe look at putting some flavour back.


----------



## roo_dr (19/2/11)

BribieG said:


> ... a couple of off licences in Cardiff started to specialise in Aussie beers ...



Not the Fosters Shop on Crwys Road by any chance? They specialise in German beer now, but still the place to get great imported beer!


----------



## Bribie G (19/2/11)

roo_dr said:


> Not the Fosters Shop on Crwys Road by any chance? They specialise in German beer now, but still the place to get great imported beer!



No long before that. The one I frequented was in Canton on Cowbridge Rd, the whole block seems to have been demolished for wanky apartment blocks.


----------



## [email protected] (19/2/11)

That was interesting Bribie, especially seeing as i am only 29 so i have no comparisons to draw on.

Why has time travel not been invented yet?


----------



## Effect (19/2/11)

Beer4U said:


> That was interesting Bribie, especially seeing as i am only 29 so i have no comparisons to draw on.
> 
> Why has time travel not been invented yet?




Didn't you see that heineken ad?


----------



## mje1980 (19/2/11)

Interesting post bribie, i thought aussie beers had always been adjunct filled fizzy yellow water. Great read, best thread i've read in a long time here.


----------



## AlwayzLoozeCount (19/2/11)

Anyone drinking beer made by CUB, XXXX, Lion Nathan or any other brewer of that nature expecting to get anything other than a beverage that refreshes your thirst should just wake up to the fact that they are giving the majority of Australian consumers what they want.

I'm guilty as charged, my beer of choice when im at an establishment that is not my home is VB, mainly because I know it is the fastest moving beer sold on tap so at least I know its going to be "fresh"

My main grief is with how brain washed and shallow each generation is when it comes to beer. I have learned to go numb to it. 

When I see adds for tooheys extra dry all I see is a bunch of dudes with gel in their hair listening to techno music at partys that would be cool for them to be seen at.

VB adds consist of some blokes covered in dirt getting out of big trucks with crappy clothes on proclaiming their thirst towards their prefered brand of beverage.

Go to your local pub and I promise if you did a census on what sort of person drinks what you would relise the power that addvertising has.

Australias beer culture is pretty much screwed.
Giants controll everything in our country and in the end we are all screwed.
support small buisness in your area, when they are gone its too late too say ohh but I liked that shop.


----------



## Silo Ted (19/2/11)

Feldon, you touch on some very valid concepts. In a word, it's "loyalty". In the youthful days, a male of any recent generation will remember good times, easy living and a nice cold beer brand. 

The adverts you see on TV aren't designed to ensnare a new market share through brand conversion. The often bold, brash statements made in these clips are intended to be a reinforcing of the allegiance to drinkers already drawn towards their brand. Not quite jingoism, but guys like the idea (and the juivenile connotations) of a big canoe. Catapulting an Elk through the sky. Or dancing down the street with a crew of wacky wavy inflatable arm flailing tube men. 



BribieG said:


> I stopped drinking from the early 1990s and took up again in 2001. The beer scene had changed immensely, rows of fonts in the pubs and lots of new brands



Flash forward to 2011, and a popular local pub near to my house has a a great variety of glistening, glycol-frozen fonts, embodying the very allure of an ice cold schooner. A unique brand logo above each tap enticing the drinkers to enjoy the great aussie tradition of their choosing. Sadly, they all taste quite similarly terrible - with the exception of the Old. 

Tooheys New
Toohey Old
Hahn Light
White Stag
VB
Carlton Draught
Hahn Super Dry
Resches
Tooheys Extra Dry
Heineken
XXXX Gold



Beer4U said:


> Why has time travel not been invented yet?



Still too many missing monkeys to make it a trustworthy technology for the rest of us.


----------



## Silo Ted (19/2/11)

AlwayzLoozeCount said:


> Australias beer culture is pretty much screwed.



Don't know about that. There are quite a few Aussie micro upstarts that produce a damn fine beer, and there's adequate sales for them to keep making beer, and maintaining their business comfortably. 

They weren't around 20 years ago.


----------



## gregs (19/2/11)

I can remember drinking DA back in the late 70s it was for me like most of the beers of the day, just beer because I had no understanding of what went into the making of beer and I had no real beer palate to speak of. My beer palate has evolved over the years and is now at the point where I can taste the hop and malt profiles that went into the recipe, maybe not exactly but I have a fairly good idea of what went into it. 

So only speaking for myself I can say that the beers of today, the so called megaswill beers have no real taste, and out of all the imports from the UK and Europe There would be only a hand full that Id drink again. As for the Australian small or craft beers, maybe a hand full that Id drink again.

So I guess out of the many, who knows how many beers Ive consumed over the years for one reason or another, I put in the I dont like category along side of the well marketed VB. I consider a very high percentage of beers today are crap, but thats only my opinion. 

Nice story on the Australian brew industry Bribie.


----------



## Housecat (19/2/11)

I can't really add too much about how Aussie beers have changed as I have never really had much of an allegiance to a brand, Coopers Pale is the beer I used to drink most of though.

However, I have had Crown here and in Malaysia and noticed a distinct difference and imho it tasted better, which adds to the question do '_they_' bottle a different beer for the o/s market?

Having said that, I have tried 'new' beers as they come out, cold filtered, low carb etc, and have noticed the taste has changed for the worse from when they were first released. I couldn't say how as I didn't really have much of an appreciation of flavours in beers until the last year or so (thankyou AHB)  

HC


----------



## fcmcg (19/2/11)

I also remember that Fosters , bought out a VB Original beer , about 7 or 8 years ago...
I didn't mind that one , but it also makes me wonder why they did this...has VB really changed so much , that they needed to remind people of what it used to taste like ? It was also in 330ml bottles...but the same price as "normal" VB....$$$$$
Another interesting thing to note is that Fosters are in deep shit.They are in the process of breaking up their wine and beer divisions , back to two separate entities.Seems the amalgamation didn't go so well....I also wouldn't be surprised if a large multi-national make a play for them....
There is also the continual slipping , of sales , of VB....I can't remeber the figure now , but it seems that they have lost quite a bit of market share over the last 2 years....
Interestingly though , Coopers still only hold 5 % market share , with Fosters and Lion Nathan holding the most...
It does seem to me , though , the only way there will be a real change with beers , is when the tax dept give craft brewery's their tax breaks , to bring it into line with the MASSIVE benefits the wine industry get...
I just wonder , if this happens , will VB still exist...or will it have been replaced by another well marketed mega-swill beer ,brewed under licence lol 
Cheers
Ferg


----------



## Silo Ted (19/2/11)

fergthebrewer said:


> There is also the continual slipping , of sales , of VB....I can't remeber the figure now , but it seems that they have lost quite a bit of market share over the last 2 years....



To the Fosters Group, the decline of the classic green icon means nothing financially, because theres an even chance that other beers in the stable are still being consumed by former VB'ers. Carlton Draught, Dry, Cold, Dry Fusion etc. The Cascade "Pure Tassie" range covers it for the greenie drinkers. Reschs is there. Redback, Beez Knees covers the 'art beerists', and Pure Blonde holds the key for fat guys who think they are drinking responsibly, but can't be botherered to exercise. 

Fosters Group also act as the Australian brand distributors of such fancy international premium offerings like Leffe and Hoegaarden . So they still cash in on the thinking man's market. 

When you co-own a marketshare with only one other competitor, it's always a rich profit stream. If VB faded into obscurity as a brand, it would be by the design of the Fosters Group's master plan, and not from any social junta.


----------



## bradsbrew (19/2/11)

Is it just me or did Fourex taste better up until the early to mid eighties. When they were in the old style bottle like the ginger beer bottles?


----------



## Bribie G (19/2/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Is it just me or did Fourex taste better up until the early to mid eighties. When they were in the old style bottle like the ginger beer bottles?



Not VB related, but an interesting thread would be "the evolution of XXXX". The Gold version 3.5% ABV is well known around Australia but a lot of interstaters aren't aware of the Queensland only version, XXXX "heavy" which is a 4.6% (previously around 5%) beer. 
Lion have been playing shenanigans with the brand over the last decade or so. It is very hard to find north of Mackay, couldn't find any in Cairns for example but heaps of other Lion Brands particularly Tooheys. 

They have been constantly reinventing the label - and it's never promoted on TV anymore.

The original label was along the lines of



Then they did a makeover and went for the black look until about 18 months ago


Then they decided to go the red look.



Interestingly they already had a red label "XXXX Original Draught" for SEQ only, which they discontinued about 18 months ago as well. 



It was a darker, richer more malty XXXX with far less carbonation. An excellent quaffer during the winter and could stand a bit warmer. Even though it was in bottles it was never on tap despite the Draught moniker. I used to enjoy the beer but now it's gone - along with Carbine Stout. 
I have little time for Kirin / Lion any more and actually feel that they are doing more damage to Aussie beer than Fosters. I expect that this will be the final makeover for XXXX heavy and that it will be dead in 5 years.


Edit: that red can has an obvious blooper on it - :wacko:


----------



## Nick JD (19/2/11)

I bought a 6 pack of 500ml cans of Oetinger at Dans last week for waaay cheap.

Cheapest beer in the bottlo, Saaz, Pils and no adjuncts. 

There's always a gem in the spoil. I don't really care what other people drink.


----------



## Bribie G (19/2/11)

Nick head for any LL nowadays and they currently have three tallies 660ml of Henninger (Frankfurt??) for ten bucks. Personally I prefer it to Oettinger as it contains hops and not just "hopsextract"


----------



## Nick JD (19/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Nick head for any LL nowadays and they currently have three tallies 660ml of Henninger (Frankfurt??) for ten bucks. Personally I prefer it to Oettinger as it contains hops and not just "hopsextract"



Sounds good - will try.

I can taste hops in Oettinger - they do a decent job on the extraction.


----------



## bradsbrew (19/2/11)

Sorry for the derailing of the VB portion of this thread.




But I would love to see the old bottles and label back. Note the little throw down grenades wouldnt mind some of those for my strong ales.

Melbourne's got rain and Sydney's got yuppies,
Tassie got the chop and we got lucky,
Nobody does it like up here does it,
We love it up here,
We don't just like it, we love it!
We don't just like it, we love it!
We love it up here,
The people the places, the mates the faces,
The XXXX, yep, the beer up here, we love it up here!

Melbourne's got rain and Sydney's got yuppies,
Tassie got the chop and we got lucky,
Nobody does it like up here does it,
We love it up here,
We don't just like it, we love it!
We don't just like it, we love it!
We love it up here,
The people the places, the mates the faces,
The XXXX, yep, the beer up here, we love it up here!


----------



## winkle (19/2/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Sorry for the derailing of the VB portion of this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Every megaswill beer tasted better outta hand grenades.
Even KB FFS.


----------



## super_simian (19/2/11)

The real question is when did they start brewing high gravity and adding iso-hop at bottling? I bet that's when it went south.


----------



## waggastew (19/2/11)

The QLD'ers obviously don't like their XXXX that much. There is now more VB sold in QLD than XXXX. 

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/restau...?skin=text-only


----------



## bradsbrew (19/2/11)

waggastew said:


> The QLD'ers obviously don't like their XXXX that much. There is now more VB sold in QLD than XXXX.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/restau...?skin=text-only



Thats because of all the bloody Victorians that have moved up here.


----------



## winkle (19/2/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Thats because of all the bloody Victorians that have moved up here.



Ain't that the truth. With any luck the floods, cyclones and humidity will send a few back to Fosters central.


----------



## Feldon (19/2/11)

waggastew said:


> The QLD'ers obviously don't like their XXXX that much. There is now more VB sold in QLD than XXXX.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/restau...?skin=text-only



In the artcle it says: 

"In the whole of Queensland there would be no more than eight craft breweries while you can expect to see the same amount in the Melbourne CBD alone," he said.
He said a generation of drinkers were coming through who have been raised on sugary foods and preferred sweeter drinks such as wines and ciders​
I think the rise in popularity of spirit & soft drink mixes (eg. bourbon & Coke, rum & Coke etc) is also very important factor driving declining beer sales and the dumbing down of traditional favourite brews. Look over the fence at any backyard BBQ and many of the young blokes are standing around with a can of these sugary mixes in their hands instead of a beer. So a preference for sweetness develops. The major breweries are chasing this lost market share (and the biggest consuming market segment) by developing sweeter, less hoppy beers under the same brand/label names that have been around for generations. The added benefit is that they are also cheaper and quicker to brew?


----------



## geoff_tewierik (19/2/11)

So, 8 micro breweries in QLD.

Burleigh Brewing
MT Brewery
Bacchus Brewing
The Brewhouse
Red Bay Brewery
Burkes Brewing Company
Preservation Brewery
Sunshine Coast Brewery
Blue Sky Brewery

I get 9.


----------



## Paul H (19/2/11)

geoff_tewierik said:


> So, 8 micro breweries in QLD.
> 
> Burleigh Brewing
> MT Brewery
> ...



You forgot my place Geoff!

:icon_cheers: 

Paul


----------



## Asha05 (19/2/11)

fergthebrewer said:


> I also remember that Fosters , bought out a VB Original beer , about 7 or 8 years ago...
> I didn't mind that one , but it also makes me wonder why they did this...has VB really changed so much , that they needed to remind people of what it used to taste like ? It was also in 330ml bottles...but the same price as "normal" VB....$$$$$
> Another interesting thing to note is that Fosters are in deep shit.They are in the process of breaking up their wine and beer divisions , back to two separate entities.Seems the amalgamation didn't go so well....I also wouldn't be surprised if a large multi-national make a play for them....
> There is also the continual slipping , of sales , of VB....I can't remeber the figure now , but it seems that they have lost quite a bit of market share over the last 2 years....
> ...



That VB original just seemed to come from nowhere and became my choice of beer. Over the standard VB, the taste was quite good. Seemed like some effort was put in. And then it just seemed to dissapear of the shelf as quick as it arrived...


----------



## BrenosBrews (19/2/11)

Feldon said:


> In the artcle it says:
> 
> "In the whole of Queensland there would be no more than eight craft breweries while you can expect to see the same amount in the Melbourne CBD alone," he said.
> He said a generation of drinkers were coming through who have been raised on sugary foods and preferred sweeter drinks such as wines and ciders​
> I think the rise in popularity of spirit & soft drink mixes (eg. bourbon & Coke, rum & Coke etc) is also very important factor driving declining beer sales and the dumbing down of traditional favourite brews. Look over the fence at any backyard BBQ and many of the young blokes are standing around with a can of these sugary mixes in their hands instead of a beer. So a preference for sweetness develops. The major breweries are chasing this lost market share (and the biggest consuming market segment) by developing sweeter, less hoppy beers under the same brand/label names that have been around for generations. The added benefit is that they are also cheaper and quicker to brew?



Off topic but - 

There is 8 craft breweries in the Melbourne CBD? Does he mean craft beer bars?


----------



## TidalPete (19/2/11)

bradsbrew said:


> Thats because of all the bloody Victorians that have moved up here.





> Ain't that the truth. With any luck the floods, cyclones and humidity will send a few back to Fosters central.



The world's biggest +1 Winkle & Bradsbrew but don't forget the cockroaches.
This is nothing like World Wars 1 & 2. This is invasion by stealth. You can tell those going back (and the ones staying) from me to take\send their bloody aerial ping pong back where it came from too.

To keep this post on-topic --- As an underage 18 year old (not a typo) in a Queensland country town with 23 pubs & 20,000 people it was no suprise in those days that the only two pubs to struggle were the non-XXXX pubs (Carlton). And yes, I agree entirely that the XXXX today is radically different from the XXXX of my youth.

TP


----------



## gregs (19/2/11)

Come on Pete you still look 18. :icon_cheers:


----------



## goomboogo (19/2/11)

geoff_tewierik said:


> So, 8 micro breweries in QLD.
> 
> Burleigh Brewing
> MT Brewery
> ...



It is still a sad state of affairs when the entire state can't get out of single figures.


----------



## Nick JD (19/2/11)

The answer is obviously a MicroUDLewry - where inhouse ethanol and fizzy drink mixers are on tap! 

The world is a supertanker and you're in a rowboat.


----------



## Bribie G (19/2/11)

TidalPete said:


> ................... And yes, I agree entirely that the XXXX today is radically different from the XXXX of my youth.
> 
> TP



I haven't met him yet, but my youth drinks Woodstocks, I've told him and told him that if he keeps doing that I'll hit him with my handbag and I won't be going out with him any more. 

Pete did you get to the International Hotel on Friday and try the beers there?


----------



## haysie (19/2/11)

TidalPete said:


> The world's biggest +1 Winkle & Bradsbrew but don't forget the cockroaches.
> This is nothing like World Wars 1 & 2. This is invasion by stealth. You can tell those going back (and the ones staying) from me to take\send their bloody aerial ping pong back where it came from too.
> 
> To keep this post on-topic --- As an underage 18 year old (not a typo) in a Queensland country town with 23 pubs & 20,000 people it was no suprise in those days that the only two pubs to struggle were the non-XXXX pubs (Carlton). And yes, I agree entirely that the XXXX today is radically different from the XXXX of my youth.
> ...



Sour grapes TP. The last time we had a woman, and I say that only by her dress, our state fell apart. Look out brussel sprout as they say.
Not many people are jumping ship to your homeland these days, that was back when you had real employment, growth and econimoc stability, its not there anymore......i.e jump forward 10 years and their isnt too many southerners moving and spending. I`ll stay put for now and gloat when she has screwed all you over, and she will. All women do!
Did I say she....


----------



## TidalPete (19/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Pete did you get to the International Hotel on Friday and try the beers there?



Yes I did but only for about 70 minutes which is not much time to give all 4 beers on tap a go but I managed quite comfortably thanks to selected use of the smallest glasses in the house.  
Clear favourite of the four was of course the Irish Red (Schooner) with the Indian Chief (wheatie), Belgian Pale, & (?) Pilsener just standard fare to this old fella's palate.




Have I mentioned the Geronimo yet? (Schooner of it):lol: No info on it at all but I imagine it's an AIPA?
Bloody good tucker Bribie. What a shame it's in excess of 7.5%. I've talked to the bar manager & he's willing to filll one of my growlers with the stuff next time I call in. :super: 
Not too sure how I'm going to survive 2 litres of Geronimo but at least I won't be drink driving. :lol: 

TP


----------



## wobblythongs (19/2/11)

Back in my day the old 3X wasn't a bad drop untill they brought out the the best thing ever "tinned piss" on draught.


----------



## TidalPete (19/2/11)

haysie,

No bloody wonder you lot are staying away in droves when That Bloody Woman has bankrupted the state & is selling off everything that's not nailed down. :angry:

All Sunshine Coast water & infrastructure paid for by the ratepayers up here over many years has been commandeered & can be pumped to Brisbane at the flick of a switch by That Bloody Woman with no recompense at all. Add the outrageous electricity charges that were supposed to get cheaper after opening up to competition. :lol: Plus the loss of our 8 cents a litre petrol subsidy now giving us the most expensive petrol in Australia plus numerous other increases in charges & rates sucking the lifeblood out of us & you might get a glimmer of why we hanker for the good old days before the invasion?



Gettin a few in me tonight. Cheers & happy brewing.

TP


----------



## Jake.v (19/2/11)

so for all us young fellas 18 to 30 y.o. who arent able to comment on the good old days of flavoured beers what are the best beers which are common on the selves of most half decient bottle-os? obviously it will vary between people but would be good to get out and try some highly rated beers which dont get a mention outside of the bewing fraternity. 

white stag and TEDS IMO better then any other beer on tap in most pubs

cheers jake


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (19/2/11)

Jake.v said:


> white stag and TEDS IMO better then any other beer on tap in most pubs
> 
> cheers jake





Whaaaa??????


----------



## Jake.v (19/2/11)

well they cant be any worse than VB or NEW


----------



## _HOME_BREW_WALLACE_ (19/2/11)

Jake.v said:


> well they cant be any worse than VB or NEW



keep telling urself that mate........


----------



## stux (19/2/11)

Jake.v said:


> so for all us young fellas 18 to 30 y.o. who arent able to comment on the good old days of flavoured beers what are the best beers which are common on the selves of most half decient bottle-os? obviously it will vary between people but would be good to get out and try some highly rated beers which dont get a mention outside of the bewing fraternity.
> 
> white stag and TEDS IMO better then any other beer on tap in most pubs
> 
> cheers jake



Coopers, Boags and Toothey's Old


----------



## Amin (20/2/11)

Jake.v said:


> well they cant be any worse than VB or NEW


Someone bought me a pint of tooheys NEW by mistake once, when this was realised they asked me what I thought of it, I told them "at least its got a good lace cling".

I'm only 20 but I decided long ago if I was at a pub and all they had was megaswill I'd stick to the water. That said most here have CSA and some have Coopers Stout :icon_chickcheers:


----------



## mwd (20/2/11)

TidalPete said:


> haysie,
> 
> No bloody wonder you lot are staying away in droves when That Bloody Woman has bankrupted the state & is selling off everything that's not nailed down. :angry:
> 
> ...



While we are at it there were queues right round the block to Centrelink for a $1000.00 per person payout for post Cyclone Yasi for anybody who was without power for longer than 48hours.
A house containing 6 adults and 10 kids was partying for a week solid.

Still OT got to laugh at the nerks you see in the Blue Sky Brewery drinking megaswill out of the bottle thinking they look so smart when there is a delicious Pilsner to be had in pints. OOw can't drink that muck it is cloudy. :beer:


----------



## Jake.v (20/2/11)

> keep telling urself that mate........



i will every time i drink it champo


----------



## Leigh (20/2/11)

BribieG said:


> Then they decided to go the red look.
> View attachment 44162



Maybe I've had too many already, but I think an extra X snuck in on that one?

Is there a story behind that?


----------



## Leigh (20/2/11)

Double Post h34r:


----------



## Mayor of Mildura (20/2/11)

Leigh said:


> Maybe I've had too many already, but I think an extra X snuck in on that one?
> 
> Is there a story behind that?


that's right. it was a limited realease to celebrate 5 qld state of origin wins in a row. 


... I can feel a xxxx coming on.... hang on i thought this was a vb thread....

edit: i carnt speel


----------



## gregs (20/2/11)

In todays News Mail Bundaberg around page 3 theres a story about VB exceeding the sales of xxxx here in Qld.


----------



## TidalPete (20/2/11)

gregs said:


> In todays News Mail Bundaberg around page 3 theres a story about VB exceeding the sales of xxxx here in Qld.



Not surprised at all. <_< 

TP


----------



## Nick JD (20/2/11)

Gimme Cluster over PoR anyday.


----------



## Benchish (2/3/11)

Looking through some of my beer reading materials (i have some on beer history as well as brewing). Some of them blame the 6 o'clock swill for the decline in body/hops/flavour/ being good. The logic seems to be that the biggest sales factor at the time was being able to get as many down as fast as possible and anything that made that harder to do or more expensive was ditched. (i'm only in my 20's so i only have books to tell me)

On a business level when your doing well selling crap to a market that loves crap why would you try and improve?

QLD still seems to be behind the times with the craft beer movement. There isnt an actual brewery in brisbane city (brewhouse is as close as we get) when there are heaps in melb. As for bottle shops once you get further north than noosa you have to find a warehouse style bottle-o before you can ask for an ale without the staff looking at you like your from mars. (i may be funny looking but i'm not green :lol: ) 

Why are there so few micro's in qld? is it the state laws? the demand? supply costs? or has nobody gotten around to it yet?


----------



## Bribie G (2/3/11)

Having lived in Queensland now since 1977 my observations about Queensland beer drinking are:

In the pubs because there were only two beers until the 1980s, most older Queenslanders grew up being told what to drink. Pubs were never about beer, they were about mates getting together and gasbagging then going home for tea.

Similarly barbecues, parties and get togethers were more about mateship - note that ALL the heavy promotion around XXXX gold has been male-group oriented. Carlton Mid extended this concept in their big advertising push, although you don't see much Mid around any more.
So if you brought a six pack of Gold to a BBQ you were absolutely safe and normal and socially acceptable. If you brought a six of Carbine Stout you would be regarded as a possible pedo or commo.

Apart from the BBQ and pub scene, beer is a thirst quencher due to the climate (this concept taken to the extreme in the NT) - hence the popularity of Gold, and the lighter and least flavour the better.

We do not have daylight saving and for most of the year it's dark around 6 pm so there isn't much of an after hours scene except in the CBD. Families or groups of friends lounging around sipping craft beers is a foreign concept. Often the Platform Bar etc will only have a few drinkers once the rush hour is over. 

If you want to get pissed, alcopops and cask wine seem to be the go, and have been for a decade or more.

Edit: amongst the chattering classes wine has been the thing for the last 15 years, ever since Australians realised that they were permitted to use French words like Chardonnay and PinOH NWAR without being branded a screaming shirt lifter - prior to that they were restricted to Blue Nun or Cold Duck. Because beer was obviously the preserve of the flanelette and mullet hairdo set, the chattering classes retreated into a massively growing and more complex wine appreciation scene as their comfort blanket and new measure of social acceptability. 

It's this class that craft beer is targetting, the regular beer drinking class will remain immune to malt and hops. Although the current cheap flood of Oettinger and Henninger etc may sway them away from VB and XXXX - hopefully.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (2/3/11)

BribieG said:


> Having lived in Queensland now since 1977 my observations about Queensland beer drinking are:
> 
> In the pubs because there were only two beers until the 1980s, most older Queenslanders grew up being told what to drink. Pubs were never about beer, they were about mates getting together and gasbagging then going home for tea.
> 
> ...



Pretty much hit it on the head. People drink fizzy malt soda water. I've tried to talk ale, AAA, APA, hops and I get blank stares and if I tell anyone I homebrew, it's a case of "that's cheap and nasty beer" (notwithstanding the fact that XXXX Gold is that).

Cheap Oettinger is the bomb on a poor week, though. It's still classes above anything "normal".

Speaking of German beer - the concept of the "wine" middle class could be extended to German/Dutch lagers/pilsners. You can get away with bringing that, and be labelled "slightly fancy" or a bit of class snob, but otherwise, it is acceptable, as bringing a bottle of Pino Gris. Most people will take it as a sign that you aren't bringing them any old junk, and that you have "refined" tastes. Even if it is BUL at the same factory as VB or XXXX (or by the same brewer).

I've given up. If someone comes over, I just serve them "beer" - no questions, no prelude, nothing. They inevitably like it, and I just tell them that it's home brew or some microbrewed beer. Generally I can go toward hoppy but not bitter beer, and I'll never have a complaint.

Goomba


----------



## Thirsty Boy (2/3/11)

Mafro has raised about the smartest and as near as i can tell most insightful point so far. The six o'clock swill impacted nearly every aspect of drinking in australia in almost every area - it certainly changed the beers too.

Familiar beers taste different than they did when i was younger - mainly i suspect because since then i have tasted many more things, have a much more educated and experienced palate, and like all my senses, as I have aged from a 20yo to a 40yo my sense of taste and smell have dulled and while more carefully tuned, are blunter instruments than they used to be.

Sure the beers have changed too - but i strongly suspect that the beers are more similar to the way they were 20 years ago, than are the minds and tastebuds of the people who are tasting them.


----------



## Lord Raja Goomba I (2/3/11)

Mafro said:


> Looking through some of my beer reading materials (i have some on beer history as well as brewing). Some of them blame the 6 o'clock swill for the decline in body/hops/flavour/ being good. The logic seems to be that the biggest sales factor at the time was being able to get as many down as fast as possible and anything that made that harder to do or more expensive was ditched. (i'm only in my 20's so i only have books to tell me)
> 
> On a business level when your doing well selling crap to a market that loves crap why would you try and improve?
> 
> ...



The International at Spring Hill has a micropub (again, just outside the CBD, though not really. IIRC some of the guys went and thought some of the beers reasonable.

I'd love to own a micropub, but it's an expensive hobby. That's one of those things you do when you've come into a lot of money, and have the luxury of bleeding losses for a fair period of time. If you're lucky, you'll run it at a small profit after a few years. I'd even be satisfied with running it at cost, if someone dies and leaves me with a kazillion dollars for a hobby like that.

Realistically, there needs to be a market with demand. I don't know that there is one. I think the best way there can be a market is for more places like archive and nectar to open around the place, stock unusual beers, build up a following of these micros (s/a Bacchus). Build demand by having profitable bars and bottleshops with these little brews as part of their array. It's just going to take time.

Just setting up a brewpub, swinging open the doors and hoping the punters keep you afloat is plain old fashioned fantasy. There needs to a demand created and it needs to be a structured process to create this demand.

Goomba


----------



## Bribie G (2/3/11)

The International Hotel at Spring Hill is in a near CBD suburb where they still have people of social disadvantage in the area - it's sort of our equivalent of Glebe or Newtown or Balmain or whatever, on a much smaller scale, and you can still see old guys in the morning walking up the street to get their paper in their pyjamas and dressing gown with a dog following, no lead and they couldn't give a stuff. Also students, taxi drivers in sharehouses and people who walk around with their eyes down muttering "bastard bastard (twitch) bastard bastard (twitch)" you know the sort of area. And one of the attractions of the IH is that they do $5 pints, so when the old guys have changed out of their jammies and ended up in the pub with the form guide watching the TAB screen they are more often than not supping on a pint of Irish Red. I was sitting near an indigenous lady who had given up muttering "Bastard" for her morning break and was also drinking a pint of house brew. I think a good cheaply sold craft beer in pints, not schmiddies, accessible to a wide selection of the population including locals is far better than trying to attract CBD workers on the way home to the train.


----------



## super_simian (3/3/11)

If there's a TV on, I'm out. Full stop.


----------



## maxymoo (23/10/11)

Just in regards to the original question, were VB, Carlton, etc always "high temperature lagers"? Or would they have used ale yeasts back in the day? 

Pride of Ringwood, Australian 2-row, would they have tasted like Cooper's? (or is their yeast special?)

I guess I'm wondering what would an authentic "Australian Pale Ale" recipe look like? I'm kind of interested in recreating some more "historic" Aussie styles.


----------



## ShredMaster (23/10/11)

I know I'm a bit late for this topic but it was an interesting read and got me thinking again!! 

I was discussing something similar recently about how the younger generations are not really beer drinkers in general. I think the posts here have nailed it on the head: the taste has changed from when "Dad" used to drink beer to now. I'm 32 and my family weren't big beer drinkers so my first foray into beer was courtesy of a bunch of good mates drinking megaswill, not really an enticing entrance to the world of beer in hindsight. I couldn't really see what the point was of drinking something which didn't taste great and going "ooh that's better".... It took me quite a few years to learn more about beer styles let alone what the brands were pumping out as "beer". 

I'm hoping this craft beer trend brings drinkers back to beer and encourages the younger drinkers to give beer a shot. It's a shame that the industry dictates that beer=crap as far as flavour goes and tends to scare new drinkers across to pre-mixes, spirits and even wine. I mean wine, hell I have a mate who "got into" wine a few years back. Started out buying a few bottles of plonk at 2 for $20 or similar, liked one and not the other then stepped up to $15 bottles and sometimes the top-shelf $25 bottles. Went around judging wine by the apparent type of wine (Pinot Nior, Sav Blanc, or whatever) and then by the price tag on the bottle. Flavour? Taste? Well, as long as it doesn't taste "bad" then it must taste good, some bottles being better than others. The analogy is: trying to get a new drinker into beer by using megaswill will NOT make for a good experience about what beer has to offer. The same can be said for launching them face first into craft beer and having their head explode from the new flavours. 

Apart from the taste, another aspect of todays younger beer drinkers is advertising and marketing, as somebody said earlier. Personally, I stayed away from certain brands of beer more for their social acceptance rather than anything else. I wound up drinking Crownies and Corona's at $8 a pop like my friends did. Not because they tasted alot better (Im still not a Corona fan) but because it was bad to be seen drinking VB (Very Bogan) or XXXX or anything else considered "cheap" beer. I personally still think Crown tends to be a cheap beer in a bloody nice bottle, each to their own I guess.

I digress. The point I was actually going to make is that the beer industry was going gangbusters for a while there, great beer, great culture. Then it seemed to have bowed to commercial greed and cut costs (including manufacturing process therefore flavour etc) and increased volume sales, marketing and distribution to become a duopoly. YAY for the corporations! Too bad they didn't think about the emerging drinkers and what they want in terms of flavour etc. Some chicks like beer, most tend to like something with more taste. I mean, Vodka Cruisers, seriously they taste like cordial and get you pissed after a few. They want to be pissed and taste good while doing that. Beer can do that too but most peoples first exposure to beer is VB/XXXX/New etc and not a nice start....

I just wish the beer giants do some long and hard research and find some flavours of their beers that will stop people taking a gulp, gasping, screwing up their face and ordering a Raspberry Vodka instead and losing another potential beer drinker to the instant-good-flavour market.

Anyway, a nice read of a few experiences from the past. Always good to remember...

Cheers,
Shred.


----------



## pk.sax (23/10/11)

I frankly think that the big brewers also must control the spirits and mixed drinks trade. Someone might be able to confirm/deny that. By tuning one business to another, it's damn easy to puppeteer the drinkers. Consider the logistics of serving a pint of beer at the bar vs the cost of serving a rum n coke. Also, you can drink more rum n come in a session than you'd normally drink beers. They just don't fill you up like beer does. Actually, the push towards lagers that are ultra crisp is also a push towards encouraging binge sessions. Again, money. Those barely malty lagers with bugger all hops last a lot longer in tanks and the supply chain can easily absorb short term demand variability. This in turn makes large consolidated breweries profitable.
Brewing ales is more at the mercy of customer demand and it makes more sense to brew them on the micro/semi-micro scale. Definitely not the dream of big corporations. Already, we see how much crap LC & other breweries get for variations between batches. It is subconsciously rated the deciding factor even by home brewers as how good your brewing is by how consistent you can get in brewing a given beer. I consider it the McDonaldisation of beer. No matter where you go, you can get the exact same crap quality anywhere in Australia - the worst cheapest beer that could be made - is standardized and those standards rigorously adhered to.

Well, that's driving efficiency to the death of beer. As long as the money flowing from beer sales can be consolidated into fewer hands, it's more efficient. And crap. And sadly, no longer beer.


----------



## maxymoo (23/10/11)

So I found something about the early history of Australian beer, a chapter in a book on google books,

apparently, in the words of a visiting British brewer, 1880s Victorian beers were generally top fermented english style ales, with a 'sickly flavour and bouquet, [and] with an unpleasant bitter for a companion' due to poor temperature control and an excessive use of sugar cane ... so maybe a cooper's kit and 2 kilos of sugar fermented in a 30degree shed actually is an historically "authentic" australian beer?!

VB in East Melbourne originally went bust in 1892, (and i'm betting that their actual historic 'traditional ale' wasn't anything special), reopened as a lager brewery a few years later to try and compete with Fosters, but bust again by 1904. Meanwhile artificially carbonated ales, began to gain popularity; this reminds me of American pale ales, fizzier, colder and more refreshing?

Well by the end of WWI, Australians were drinking lots of imported German lager, and so when the brewers consolidated and bought the equipment for lager, (ice machines, etc) there was a big market for it, and so that's why most Australian beers are lagers. As a young tacker, I do wonder what the "megaswills" tasted like back in the day. Maybe they were more like Cascade lager or Boag's premium?

I like the idea of an "Australian Pale Ale"... but what would this be? Coopers is good but it's got a very characteristic taste due to its yeast. Maybe there's room for more APA beers with a focus on Australian hop varieties? I don't really like Stone and Wood, it's a bit *too* passionfruity for my tastes... but POR is a bit boring too... 

Any ideas for an "Australian Pale Ale?"


----------



## peas_and_corn (23/10/11)

I would argue that an Australian Pale Ale 'style' is Coopers.


----------



## Innes (23/10/11)

From what I understand, CUB and LN each have a single yeast strain which they use to produce all the mainstream beers in their range. Its no wonder that the beer they produce today tastes nothing like the beer from days gone by.

As each of the older breweries were consumed by the giants over the years, even if the brand was retained, the flavour of the beer was changed because of the new house yeast strain being used.


----------



## Glot (21/9/13)

We certainly were sheltered back then. Remember the great beer strike by CUB? We used to line up at the local BS on a Friday and try get a hold of what ever they had managed to import from interstate. Even then it was rationed to a slab a person. All these brands we had never heard of. I can also recall I stopped drinking VB when I realised it was that and not all beers that gave me one hell of a hangover.


----------



## Glot (21/9/13)

We certainly were sheltered back then. Remember the great beer strike by CUB? We used to line up at the local BS on a Friday and try get a hold of what ever they had managed to import from interstate. Even then it was rationed to a slab a person. All these brands we had never heard of. I can also recall I stopped drinking VB when I realised it was that and not all beers that gave me one hell of a hangover.


----------



## Bribie G (22/9/13)

Interesting that this thread has been necroed 

Since 2011 a couple of things have happened that are pertinent to the thread:

CUB, to maintain trademarks, re-brewed quite a large amount of Brisbane Bitter and Bulimba Gold Top. They had to use modern ingredients but the head brewer stated that they stuck as closely to the old recipes as possible. They weren't to everybody's taste but I found the Bulimba to be very reminiscent of the old Queensland Carlton Draught from the 1970s before they moved the brewery to Yatala. I did a side by side with the modern Carlton Draught and it was head and shoulders above the latest version. Nice lingering hop bitterness and a clean clean flavour. Just about spot on.
The Brisbane Bitter actually seemed a bit too tasty compared to what I remember.

However the exercise proved that CUB have indeed changed the modern recipes, and that they can still churn out a reasonable beer if they wish.

The other surprise is that since I moved to the Mid North Coast of NSW I see that XXXX red (full strength) has migrated South and is now in many of the bottle shops here, so hope for the brew yet. Possibly since being taken over by Kirin they are dissolving some of the old State boundaries. Might get a six pack for old times sake.

And of course VB has been restored to 4.9%, not that it's much better for that


----------



## rheffera (22/9/13)

I swear the VB of 15 years ago actually had flavor going for it. Now days i only drink hahn superdry on tap simply because pubs don't have anything else that i can stomach. Coopers stout at home.


----------



## Bribie G (22/9/13)

Funny you should mention it, when I'm somewhere that doesn't even have a Coopers or JS tap I always go for Hahn Superdry. It actually has a pleasant caramelly twang from somewhere and a slight hop presence. It doesn't have the eau de wheelie bin taste of TED or the mouse piss background of VB. I'm ashamed to say that I'm not much of a Toohey's Old fan - I should be, but that's just my buds.


----------



## of mice and gods (22/9/13)

Ahh this thread brought up some good memories.

Like a previous poster stated, the special release of the VB original in crown seal bottles (maybe 7 years ago?), was pretty good. I don't like the standard issue VB but found myself knocking back a few six packs of this when it was released. I also felt the same about the XXX Original Ale special release (also about 7-ish years ago?). I must admit at the time I was a solid XXXX draught drinker and didn't know much about craft type beers apart from they were "fruity".

Actually, I wish you could still find XXXX Draught.. I'd like to give it a go again.

Also, to build on the post relating to VB going from Ale to Lager, I believe that XXXX did the same move but some decades later? (Sorry, I had a quick squizz for references but can't remember where I read that).

And lastly, when we blame the brewery's for putting out mass-appealing shit beers.. we should really think about the amount of time and money that is put into the R&D of these recipes. They wouldn't release the beer unless market research showed it was likely to sell well.

I remember being involved in marketing research prior to the release of XXXX Summer bright. There was specific criteria you had to meet in order to be involved in the market research to make sure you were within the target market (I think the requirements for my panel were Male, 20-30, Single, income 30-45k & Also drank spirits). Anyway, we were presented with I think 14 different beers and asked to rate them on a supplied rating sheet. There were some bloody nice beers and some pretty crappy ones ranging from darker hoppy ales down to super pale watery fizz pops. Anyway, let's just say 3 months later Summer bright came out, so i guess I was the only one giving high scores to the hoppier recipes...

They had their market, they did their research, they did tastings and the market apparently liked Summer bright and it seemingly continues to sell fairly well..

bugger.

Al

Also +1 to yobs Thirsty Dog being utter shit.


----------



## Bribie G (22/9/13)

It's also interesting that NSW still has beers that were once classics back in the 60s and 70s but have all been watered down to 4% ABV and presumably sell ok as they are even in the smaller bottle shops. I think they are for an elderly market, the sorts of guys who were very loyal to a brew and wouldn't consider drinking anything else. Often seen around bowls clubs nowadays.

Tooheys Red (now just called Red)
Reschs Pilsner
Reschs Real Ale
Reschs DA

When QldKev came for a visit we tried a few, bloody woeful. I remember when DA was a pleasant malty almost brown ale back in the 70s.


----------



## rheffera (22/9/13)

I give them credit for slowly and sneakily changing the recipe over time. If it was a sudden drastic change their market would disappear from under them because everyone would be complaining. Making your beer considerably shitter & not pissing off your consumer base en masse at the same time is no small achievement. I mean, a VB drinker knows what VB is. If you suddenly start using a different hop for bittering you may get a revolt from all the vb drinkers etc etc.


----------



## HBHB (22/9/13)

Feldon said:


> In the artcle it says:
> 
> 
> "In the whole of Queensland there would be no more than eight craft breweries while you can expect to see the same amount in the Melbourne CBD alone," he said.
> He said a generation of drinkers were coming through who have been raised on sugary foods and preferred sweeter drinks such as wines and ciders​


Couple of possible reasons why that is:

1. Freight from the southern suppliers of grain and hops adds roughly 35% to the overall costs of goods by the time it hits the QLD border. About 48% increase by the time it hits north of the sunshine coast and about 80% increase to get it to Cairns. Odd how the majority of Australian imports enter this country at the point that is furthest away from the country of origin.

2. QLD Liquor Licensing laws are a lot more restrictive than both NSW and VIC in so many ways.

Martin


----------



## Bridges (22/9/13)

Beer used to be cheap. Working class blokes and the young purchased it because they could afford it. Fast forward a lot more years than I have on the clock and you arrive at a point where alcopops and spirits are cheaper, thanks to some whacking great excise and other taxes. Thus tastes change. I hated the first few beers I had but enjoyed being drunk, gradually I found beers that I preferred and got to where I am today. Not a beer snob as such but I will seek out beers I like rather than just have a pot of swill. I also see this as giving rise to a heap of the pill popping that goes on today. Grab a $20 dollar pill, party all night. Or spend well over $100 on beer over the jump. I see the tax on beer making breweries try to cut corners and make it cheaper to keep selling the volume they want to, at a price that remains competitive. It's imported beer though that stuffs my argument, I still can't see how some imported beers can be so cheap. For example Ballast point IPA, awesome beer $20 a six pack, its come half way around the world is 7% abv. Beer made in abbotsford at CUB (carlton draught) comes 40 minutes down the road sells from $14 to $17 sixer. How can they not want to make a better product that may be a dollar or so a sixpack dearer? I'm not saying they should be making an IPA but carlton draught could still be a great beer if made better.

Wow that got big on me...


----------



## Bribie G (22/9/13)

That's an interesting point that cheap parallel import beer is pouring into the marketplace. For example here in very conservative Country NSW our local bottle shop shifts heaps of Hooten, Mythos etc that Liquorstax import directly and flog off for around $30 a carton. The big two have their Henninger and Oettinger, and a whole heap of other euros riding on their coat tails like Furstenburg or Konig from Frankfurt. These are very nice beers compared to VB or CD and must surely be skewing the palate of an increasing number of Australians. You would think that now the duopoly are foreign owned their new masters would be thinking along the lines of more flavour to counter the assault from the bottlos.

Up to now they have countered the Euro threat by brewing the likes of Stella and Becks BUL which is all very well, but fifty bucks a slab, oh dear. Lost the plot methinks.


----------



## jlm (22/9/13)

Bridges said:


> Beer made in abbotsford at CUB (carlton draught) comes 40 minutes down the road sells from $14 to $17 sixer. How can they not want to make a better product that may be a dollar or so a sixpack dearer? I'm not saying they should be making an IPA but carlton draught could still be a great beer if made better.
> 
> Wow that got big on me...


They don't want to 'cause it makes money as is. Their consumers don't want them to cause they're happy with it as is.

I don't look to mega breweries for craft beer (sessionable beer, yes) and if the bean counters knew me they wouldn't look to me for a regular amount of bucks week after week.


----------



## spryzie (22/9/13)

Since I've started home brewing, If I'm at a bottleshop I'd rather grab a $15 bottle of plonk rather than a six-pack of beer.

Oddly, wine is cheaper than beer. And it tastes better if you're comparing a $15 six-pack to a $15 bottle of plonk.

Unless there's a coopers six-pack or extremely rarely a four-pack of MooBrew going for $15 - then it's a difficult choice.


----------



## Rocker1986 (22/9/13)

of mice and gods said:


> Also, to build on the post relating to VB going from Ale to Lager, I believe that XXXX did the same move but some decades later? (Sorry, I had a quick squizz for references but can't remember where I read that).



The old labels have it as XXXX Bitter Ale. The website states it to be a lager now so not sure when the change happened but I'd guess the 80s maybe? It would explain the change in the labels from XXXX Bitter Ale to just XXXX Bitter. Interestingly, that SSS BBQ Barns place opposite the Orient Hotel in the city has a neon XXXX Bitter Ale sign up on their wall. Who really knows... :lol:


----------



## Toper (22/9/13)

maxymoo said:


> Just in regards to the original question, were VB, Carlton, etc always "high temperature lagers"? Or would they have used ale yeasts back in the day?
> 
> Pride of Ringwood, Australian 2-row, would they have tasted like Cooper's? (or is their yeast special?)
> 
> I guess I'm wondering what would an authentic "Australian Pale Ale" recipe look like? I'm kind of interested in recreating some more "historic" Aussie styles.


The original brews would have been ales,not "high temp lagers". The names kept the same to keep favour with drinkers.POR wasn't bred till 1953 so none of that stuff  Possibly imported English hops, :unsure: No recipes remain AFIK so it's a big guess as to grain and hop types.I'm sure someone will prove me wrong though


----------



## Bribie G (22/9/13)

The "ale" was removed from the Name of XXXX about 10-15 years ago to make it less oldfarty. Cascade still keeps the Ale name in its Cascade Pale Ale that is of course a Lager. XXXX doesn't use POR, it used Golden Cluster, an old American variety, so I guess it was grown here for ages. According to my new Hops book, Cluster is a very old American "land race" hop and came before POR. Maybe originally imported from California?


----------



## garyhead.design (22/9/13)

spryzie said:


> Oddly, wine is cheaper than beer.


Wine is taxed differently to other booze. It's tax is calculated on sale price rather than Alc Vol. So cheaper the wine, lower the tax. If it was taxed the same as beer, goon bags would triple in price.....


----------



## garyhead.design (22/9/13)

toper01 said:


> The original brews would have been ales,not "high temp lagers". The names kept the same to keep favour with drinkers.POR wasn't bred till 1953 so none of that stuff  Possibly imported English hops, :unsure: No recipes remain AFIK so it's a big guess as to grain and hop types.I'm sure someone will prove me wrong though


This makes sense, it was the Fosters Brothers who shipped over the first Lager tanks (Not sure where I picked up this piece of wisdom, I think it was mentioned during a talk given by Chuck Hahn or at a brewery, Maybe at Cascade), so any beer that pre-dates Fosters would be pretty safe to assume was an ale.

I can't even imagine any of the Aus swill with a decent ale character

I would have assumed most of the changes made to recipes over time would have been done to minimize the cost for the breweries (for example lowering the Alc equals less ingredients and lower taxes but when sold at the same price equals larger margins), So I would have thought switching to Lagering would increase costs, longer ferments, needing lagering time ect ect.


----------



## petesbrew (22/9/13)

Threads like this are another reason I like Homebrewing.
Today I've enjoyed a glass each of my own hoppy APA, pilsner, and chocolate dubbel.
All are much nicer than VB.


----------



## manticle (22/9/13)

I licked my cat's bum earlier which was also nicer than VB.

Just. I had previously cleaned it with a melbourne.


----------



## Toper (22/9/13)

PCB_Brewer said:


> This makes sense, it was the Fosters Brothers who shipped over the first Lager tanks (Not sure where I picked up this piece of wisdom, I think it was mentioned during a talk given by Chuck Hahn or at a brewery, Maybe at Cascade), so any beer that pre-dates Fosters would be pretty safe to assume was an ale.
> 
> I can't even imagine any of the Aus swill with a decent ale character
> 
> I would have assumed most of the changes made to recipes over time would have been done to minimize the cost for the breweries (for example lowering the Alc equals less ingredients and lower taxes but when sold at the same price equals larger margins), So I would have thought switching to Lagering would increase costs, longer ferments, needing lagering time ect ect.


Actually it was Cohn Brothers from Bendigo that brewed the first lager in Australia,in 1882,under the name Excelsior.


----------

