# Step Mashing For Wheat Beers



## NeilArge (26/7/09)

G'day 

I'm going to attempt my first ever AG wheat beer soon (a weizen) and have been following some discussions on a Northern Hemisphere forum  . Despite the number of recipes I read that say a simple infusion is fine there is also a body of opinion that a step mashing regime is necessary to get the full 'banana 'n' cloves' character of genuine German weizens. I am thinking of doing a 44-66-76 step mash, with decoctions used to reach the step temps. I am only too happy to concede that I am very new to this but what is your opinion? Is this complicated approach needed for Aussie (JWM) wheat malt? (c. 50/50 wheat/pilsener grain bill).

Thanks for any feedback,

ToG


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## jlm (26/7/09)

Hmmmmm, well this will be another of those topics with many different opinions....... Mine though after doing 7 weizens now is that a step mash is worth it. My latest is as close to zwickel's weizen regime as I could manage with infusions and decoctions and I have to say it's my best yet. Tart, good balance of clove and banana, perfect summer beer (wrong time of year though).The next thing to think about is yeast, gone back to 3068 after using 3638 for the previous few, when the 3068 has run dry will try the same mash with the 3638.


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## Kleiny (26/7/09)

Ive always found it to be the fermentation temp that gives those yeast characters such as banana, clove and bubblegum.
The weizens ive made have all been single infusion with the weienstehpan yeast strain and i get plenty of those characters at temps of around 22-23C fermentation.

Kleiny


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## jlm (26/7/09)

Oh yeah, forgot that minor issue.... :icon_drunk: I've been pitching coolish and letting it warm up for the last few....


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## Zwickel (26/7/09)

Hello ToG,

Id suggest you to do a 43C, 62C, 72C mash regime instead (ferulic acid rest; beta amylase rest; alpha amylase rest)

For those who are interested in, Im going to post an original German recipe.

A very popular recipe over here is the "Almtaler Hefeweizen" (makes you jodel)

the original recipe is shown in the following pic:





Im going to translate the most important things:

OG 1052; alcohol by volume 5.2%; Bitterness 14 IBU; Colour 10EBC 
Ingredients for 50l of beer:

5kg wheat malt
4kg pilsener malt
1kg munich malt

water primary 32l
sparge water 34l

heat up the primary water (32l) to 49C, dough in, resulting temp will be 43C, keep it there for 20min.
then heat it up to 61-63C and rest for 30min.
then go to 72C and rest for another 30min.
then heat up to 78C and mashout.

Hops:
put in 30g Tettnanger (before it boils) and add another 30g Tettnanger 10min. after boil gegan.
boil for 70min.

Yeast:
Wyeast/Weihenstephan #3068; fermenting temp 18-22C

have fun

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Online Brewing Supplies (26/7/09)

G'Day mate , Whats Jodel? If its good I want some ! :icon_cheers: Im going to put down a Dunkle wheat soon and was thinking about using some Weyermann Cara Wheat, ever used it ?
GB
Edit: You mean Yodel ? liker in the swiss moutains?


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## Screwtop (26/7/09)

Zwickel said:


> Hello ToG,
> 
> Id suggest you to do a 43C, 62C, 72C mash regime instead (ferulic acid rest; beta amylase rest; alpha amylase rest)
> 
> ...




Oh Yum, can vouch for Zwickels mash schedule, have made some great North German Weizen's using his mash schedule and recipes. Summer is coming soon mate, best get some Weizenbiers on the to do list. Earthworks start for the shed on Thursday :icon_cheers: the next time you visit there will be a manshed and a bar to enjoy.

Screwy


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## roger mellie (26/7/09)

Screwtop said:


> Oh Yum, can vouch for Zwickels mash schedule, have made some great North German Weizen's using his mash schedule and recipes. Summer is coming soon mate, best get some Weizenbiers on the to do list. Earthworks start for the shed on Thursday :icon_cheers: the next time you visit there will be a manshed and a bar to enjoy.
> 
> Screwy



Gotten Himmel Screwtop - I think I must have been in a time and space discontinuance for the last 4 months - could have sworn I read a missive from your good self stating that earthworks had already begun?!?

Anyway - have always done a single infusion for my wheats - keen to try a step mash to compare the flavours - I can get Bubblegum and clove - but want more 'composting mouldy oranges' - surely the holy grail.

Chance would be a fine thing - stuck up here in darwin with no mojo.

RM


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## Screwtop (26/7/09)

roger mellie said:


> Gotten Himmel Screwtop - I think I must have been in a time and space discontinuance for the last 4 months - could have sworn I read a missive from your good self stating that earthworks had already begun?!?
> 
> Anyway - have always done a single infusion for my wheats - keen to try a step mash to compare the flavours - I can get Bubblegum and clove - but want more 'composting mouldy oranges' - surely the holy grail.
> 
> ...




:lol: RM, all started in a flurry, but earthmoving guy decided he had other more important jobs. Asked him to POQ and called for quotes again. After nearly 6 weeks in council we now have the go ahead for the new contractor who begins on Thursday. Guess I'll have to add to the thread when things kick off again. Nothin happins real quick in Gumpy :lol:

Screwy


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## HoppingMad (26/7/09)

Hi Ton,

Asked a question earlier this year in the same ballpark as yours. Here: Protein Rest - is it handy?

The responses and research I did agreed in part with Jim's comment - that using a weizen yeast at higher temps will add banana and clove whereas lower temp ferments bring out more apple/pear characters. 

Step mashes/rests assist with adding body and sacchrification I believe according to what i've been told - but happy to be corrected by more experienced people like Zwickel and Les the Weizguy who are old hands at this style on AHB.

Some reference that came out of that discussion you might find of use:

Weyermann's mash sched on a recipe:
Weyermann Mash

The link that screwtop also put in was quite handy for me too:Screwtop's link

Cheers and all the best with it. Wheat beers are a great style. I've only done the one in AG and it wasn't very flash - stupidly listened to some advice and didn't do a rest/step mash at all and the beer came out very thin - plus used WB-06 and fermented low (16 degrees). Came out like a WitBier/estery hoegaarden instead of a weizen! Next time I'm not mucking around - proper step mash like Zwickels and a good Bavarian Wyeast fermented in the ideal range.

Hopper.


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## Zwickel (27/7/09)

Gryphon Brewing said:


> G'Day mate , Whats Jodel? If its good I want some ! Im going to put down a Dunkle wheat soon and was thinking about using some Weyermann Cara Wheat, ever used it ?
> GB
> Edit: You mean Yodel ? liker in the swiss moutains?



howdy Nev,
sorry mate, I havent made a dunkel weizen yet, I love blonde 

yeah, I mean yodel, thats the sound either you may hear in the mountains (Alps), or drink the "Almtaler Hefeweizen".
Also some Girls do it at a certain stage 
Thats a common sound you can hear in the Alps region, not only in Swizerland, also in Austria and southern Germany.



Screwtop said:


> Oh Yum, can vouch for Zwickels mash schedule, have made some great North German Weizen's using his mash schedule and recipes. Summer is coming soon mate, best get some Weizenbiers on the to do list. Earthworks start for the shed on Thursday the next time you visit there will be a manshed and a bar to enjoy.
> 
> Screwy



Screwy, anyway next time when were in Queensland, wed like to meet you and a few other homebrewers, weve met already, again, thats for sure. 
So we hope youll have a little bit time and enough homebrew to spend a little while with us 



roger mellie said:


> Gotten Himmel Screwtop ...



:icon_chickcheers: 


Sorry for getting off-topic.

Cheers


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## NeilArge (27/7/09)

HoppingMad said:


> Hi Ton,
> 
> Asked a question earlier this year in the same ballpark as yours. Here: Protein Rest - is it handy?
> 
> ...



Thanks Hopper - I owe you for doing my homework for me :icon_cheers: . I did try a few different searches on step temps and wheat beers but didn't come up with much and so did the cheeky thing by posting on an old topic... I will definitely do a step mash, using decocotions, and am using WY 3068. I'll have to wait for spring to get closer though to get to the right fermentation temp. - 10C in Armidale today!

Cheers and thanx

ToG


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## NeilArge (27/7/09)

Zwickel said:


> Hello ToG,
> 
> Id suggest you to do a 43C, 62C, 72C mash regime instead (ferulic acid rest; beta amylase rest; alpha amylase rest)
> 
> ...



Zwickel

Dunkeschon! That looks a delicious recipe and may even have a madchen I know well yodelling  
I'll definitely try that mash regime also. Excellent advice mate.

Cheers

ToG


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## warrenlw63 (27/7/09)

Great thread leading into summer chaps (particular thanks to Zwickel) ... Let's just hope it stays on track and free of the "IMO" brigade.  

I'll be bookmarking this one.

Warren -


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## Fourstar (27/7/09)

Looks like an awesome recipe Zwickel! This will be coming up real soon i think. Just got to find the brew space


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## fraser_john (27/7/09)

My first brew with my new PID controlled system is going to use step regime that Kirem has worked on:

Ferulic acid rest : 40c for 30 minutes
Protein rest : 55c for 15 minutes
Sach rest #1 : 61c to 63c over 40 minutes
Sach rest #2 : 70c for 50 minutes
Mash out : 75c

I am looking forward to trying it.


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## HoppingMad (27/7/09)

TunofGrunt said:


> Thanks Hopper - I owe you for doing my homework for me :icon_cheers: . I did try a few different searches on step temps and wheat beers but didn't come up with much and so did the cheeky thing by posting on an old topic... I will definitely do a step mash, using decocotions, and am using WY 3068. I'll have to wait for spring to get closer though to get to the right fermentation temp. - 10C in Armidale today!
> 
> Cheers and thanx
> 
> ToG



No probs Ton. Think you are on the money with your yeast choice. Some very experienced brewers in my club love that yeast and told me that this is what I should be using on my next one for the best result. Weihanstephaner is a great beer and uses this strain or pretty close I gather. You'll get good banana clove I think just by using this yeast in a sensible range.

Some people I've spoken to don't do full step mashes due to time constraints, but do one protein rest close to 50 and then straight in. But yeah, if you have the time and are keen to do it properly to add good body to your beer, then I gather Zwickel & Weyermann's method are the way to go. Course, take what I say with a grain of salt as I've only done one so-so weizen that turned out to be a witbier!

Cheers :icon_cheers: 

Hopper.


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## O'Henry (27/7/09)

I mashed my wheat at 55C and then 66C with no mash out. It turned out really well, best brew yet. 50/50 pilsner/wheat malt with 20% apple juice. Bit strange I know, but was attempting to make a non-beer drinker friendly beer and it worked. 

As for the yeasts above, how does Safbrew WB-06 compare to them? Totally different flavour or just more complex?


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## tdh (27/7/09)

There's a familiar recipe, it's out of Hubert Hanghofers book!

An excellent techniques and recipe book, gotta love this blokes surname too.

tdh





Zwickel said:


> Hello ToG,
> 
> Id suggest you to do a 43C, 62C, 72C mash regime instead (ferulic acid rest; beta amylase rest; alpha amylase rest)
> 
> ...


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## hefevice (27/7/09)

Zwickel said:


> Hello ToG,
> 
> Id suggest you to do a 43C, 62C, 72C mash regime instead (ferulic acid rest; beta amylase rest; alpha amylase rest)
> 
> ...



+1 on the mash regime. I accidentally ended up doing approximately this (was aiming for a 66C rest but missed on the low side), and it turned out great. The 43C rest will also help with sparging by breaking down some of the glucans in the wheat (beta-glucanaise).

Given the high modification of malts now days, the decoctions only need to be boiled for a short amount of time (5 to 10 mins), and I normally give the decoctions a sacc rest at around 66C for 5 - 10 mins on the way up to boiling.

With regard to the fermentation temperature using 3068, I would recommend 16C until the krausen subsides, then slowly ramp up to 18-20C to clean up. Even at 16C the damned thing still climbs out of the fermenter. Be careful not to over-pitch or over-oxygenate. I have done this before an ended up with Acetyl-aldehyde problems. I find 1 pack of 3068 is fine for ~20L @ ~1.052. The lower temperature ferment restrains the esters (banana), and results in an excellent balance.


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## muckanic (27/7/09)

HoppingMad said:


> But yeah, if you have the time and are keen to do it properly to add good body to your beer, then I gather Zwickel & Weyermann's method are the way to go.



I don't think you can blame thin beer on lack of a step mash. A stuck sparge maybe. Also note that Weyermann protein rest and Zwickel doesn't. OTOH, there is a reasonable possibility that protease is still active at beta amylase rests at sub-gelatinisation temperatures, which both advocate. There is also a possibility that, by starting with a ferulic acid rest, the mash spends some non-trivial time in the protein digestion zone as the temperature is slowly increased. As I mentioned in another recent thread that was thrashing this particular horse, I think the widespread notion that 50C rests make thin beer whereas 55C rests do not is flawed. That is based on looking solely at theoretically optimum enzyme temperatures and ignoring other practicalities, like their range and speed of operation. 

Incidentally, I have had a number of very clovey weizen and wit beers that I know received no ferulic acid rest.


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## HoppingMad (27/7/09)

muckanic said:


> I don't think you can blame thin beer on lack of a step mash. A stuck sparge maybe. Also note that Weyermann protein rest and Zwickel doesn't.



Interesting points Muck, haven't actually used either Weyermann's or Zwickels procedure yet so haven't consulted them in huge detail, but do plan to give them both a go. Can't really comment on whether a 50 degree or 55 would be better as a starting point either as am not that far progressed in my brewing experience.

My thin beer had rice hulls added so there was no risk of a stuck sparge and flowed pretty smoothly. My recipe was 50% pils and 50% wheat malt. Considering adding a small amount of munich next time as well (substituting some of the pils part) to boost a little body and add further insurance which I think might help. 

Hopper.


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## NeilArge (27/7/09)

hefevice said:


> +1 on the mash regime. I accidentally ended up doing approximately this (was aiming for a 66C rest but missed on the low side), and it turned out great. The 43C rest will also help with sparging by breaking down some of the glucans in the wheat (beta-glucanaise).
> 
> Given the high modification of malts now days, the decoctions only need to be boiled for a short amount of time (5 to 10 mins), and I normally give the decoctions a sacc rest at around 66C for 5 - 10 mins on the way up to boiling.
> 
> With regard to the fermentation temperature using 3068, I would recommend 16C until the krausen subsides, then slowly ramp up to 18-20C to clean up. Even at 16C the damned thing still climbs out of the fermenter. Be careful not to over-pitch or over-oxygenate. I have done this before an ended up with Acetyl-aldehyde problems. I find 1 pack of 3068 is fine for ~20L @ ~1.052. The lower temperature ferment restrains the esters (banana), and results in an excellent balance.



That's very interesting advice err, hefevice  . Fermentation temps do seem to be pretty important - nearly as important as the mash regime even. I had been looking somewhere for advice on a beta-glucan rest, and you mentioned it! 
When you say one smackpak should be okay, do you mean just by itself or cultured up into a decent size starter? I have read somewhere else the beer tastes better, with more phenols, if the yeast is stressed (i.e. under-pitched). What's been your experience?
In search of hefeweizen heaven,
ToG


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## Screwtop (27/7/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Great thread leading into summer chaps (particular thanks to Zwickel) ... Let's just hope it stays on track and free of the "IMO" brigade.
> 
> I'll be bookmarking this one.
> 
> Warren -






muckanic said:


> I don't think you can blame thin beer on lack of a step mash. A stuck sparge maybe. Also note that Weyermann protein rest and Zwickel doesn't. OTOH, there is a reasonable possibility that protease is still active at beta amylase rests at sub-gelatinisation temperatures, which both advocate. There is also a possibility that, by starting with a ferulic acid rest, the mash spends some non-trivial time in the protein digestion zone as the temperature is slowly increased. As I mentioned in another recent thread that was thrashing this particular horse, I think the widespread notion that 50C rests make thin beer whereas 55C rests do not is flawed. That is based on looking solely at theoretically optimum enzyme temperatures and ignoring other practicalities, like their range and speed of operation.
> 
> Incidentally, I have had a number of very clovey weizen and wit beers that I know received no ferulic acid rest.




:lol: Warren - you live in hope!!!!


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## Tony (27/7/09)

Im all for step mashes with wheat beers. They are worth the effort.

And if you do it with decoctions, it will be even better.

A few tips from me on decoctions.

Make sure that when you pull your first one from the 40 od deg ferulic????? acid rest, you raise it to mash temp (63 deg)and hold it there for 15 min to convert before raising to boiling temp. Otherwise your just boiling unconverted starch..... which is bad!

Also another thing i have found....... The act of raising the pulled decoction up through the temp range will expose it to higher mash temps and produce less fermentable sugars. If you mash high around the 67 mark, you usually end up with very poor attenuation because of the double hit of high temps.

What i usually do is work out what mash temp i would use in an infusion mash to achieve the desired result, and subtract 3 deg from it for the decoction mash temp. This gives me the attenuation i want and the rich maltiness from boiling the malt.

IMO...... h34r: :lol: 62 deg will be perfect mash temp with a decoction mash. It should be light and dry but with a rich maltiness... which is where the decoction shines!

Also..... watch out for a stuck sparge as boiling the mash produces break, like in the kettle, and this can stick the mash real good. 

I learnt this the hard way with a 60% rye roggenbier!

keep us informed on the beers progress. I have a fresh bag of weyermann pale wheat and plan to give some 3068 a right flogging very soon.

cheers


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## hefevice (27/7/09)

TunofGrunt said:


> That's very interesting advice err, hefevice  . Fermentation temps do seem to be pretty important - nearly as important as the mash regime even. I had been looking somewhere for advice on a beta-glucan rest, and you mentioned it!
> When you say one smackpak should be okay, do you mean just by itself or cultured up into a decent size starter? I have read somewhere else the beer tastes better, with more phenols, if the yeast is stressed (i.e. under-pitched). What's been your experience?
> In search of hefeweizen heaven,
> ToG


Apologies for the bad pun in my nick  . I first tasted hefeweizen by accident in (of all places) Freising near Munich - the home of Weihenstephan. It was my beer epiphany and I have been obsessed with the style ever since.

One smack pack, no starter. I used 2L starters on my first two batches (got to make a starter, right?) and had acetyl aldehyde problems as a result. On the other hand, I am not big on deliberately under-pitching to stress the yeast. One pack in 20L @ 1.050 is at the low end of the range, but I don't consider it under. Produces a very healthy fermentation (always need a blow off tube) and has no problems getting down to FG. Both esters and phenols are present, but in balance and restrained.

I have a hypothesis that 3068 works much better at the lower end of the ale range of pitching rates. I think over time this has come to be confused with "under pitching" and therefore stressing of the yeast.


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## Tony (27/7/09)

I have often pitched a smacked, swolen pack of 3068 direct into 52 liters @ 1.050 and it works great! 

I only do this if the pack was fresh and it swole in under 6 hrs, but i think that is another inportant consideration with this yeast.......... freshness.

Re-pitching seems to effect it as well, with flavours getting less prominent in the beer.

cheers

Ohhhhhhh one other piece of advice from an avid 3068 user:

BLOW OFF TUBE!


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## drtomc (27/7/09)

Tony said:


> IMO......



IMO stands for "I'm Megaswill Only" right? h34r: 

T.


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## Tony (27/7/09)

no........ its code for Im a shit stiring bastard


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## NeilArge (28/7/09)

Tony said:


> Im all for step mashes with wheat beers. They are worth the effort.
> 
> And if you do it with decoctions, it will be even better.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice on decoctions, Tony. I hadn't heard of having a mini-step in the decoction before, but that sounds sensible. Have you used Aussie wheat before in wheat beer recipes?

:icon_cheers: 
ToG


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## NeilArge (28/7/09)

hefevice said:


> Apologies for the bad pun in my nick  . I first tasted hefeweizen by accident in (of all places) Freising near Munich - the home of Weihenstephan. It was my beer epiphany and I have been obsessed with the style ever since.
> 
> One smack pack, no starter. I used 2L starters on my first two batches (got to make a starter, right?) and had acetyl aldehyde problems as a result. On the other hand, I am not big on deliberately under-pitching to stress the yeast. One pack in 20L @ 1.050 is at the low end of the range, but I don't consider it under. Produces a very healthy fermentation (always need a blow off tube) and has no problems getting down to FG. Both esters and phenols are present, but in balance and restrained.
> 
> I have a hypothesis that 3068 works much better at the lower end of the ale range of pitching rates. I think over time this has come to be confused with "under pitching" and therefore stressing of the yeast.


Thanks for the clarification on the yeast hefevice - 1 pack it is!

Cheers

ToG


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## warrenlw63 (28/7/09)

Tony said:


> IMO...... h34r: :lol:



Bah! Only takes one bad apple to create acetaldehyde. B) 

Warren -


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## Screwtop (28/7/09)

Tony said:


> Im all for step mashes with wheat beers. They are worth the effort.
> 
> And if you do it with decoctions, it will be even better.
> 
> ...



Tony is well experienced at decoctions, remember PM'ing him a few years ago when trying to get a handle on the process. My hint is to use a seive to pull thick decoctions for the early steps. I believe Tony will agree that the step to Sacc temp and Mash Out should be thin pulls (wort only) with the aim of only raising the temp. It is very easy to end up with low attenuation when decocting as he says, so keep temps low. Very important to saccharification rest the pull prior to boiling. Boiling the thick pull provides maltiness, have read that some brewers boil for an hour for some styles, although I don't understand what effect this long rest would have while waiting for the boil. A short 15 min boil is fine for wheat beers. Using Munich in the grist is used to provide a little maltiness where decocting is not used.

Screwy


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## Fourstar (28/7/09)

hefevice said:


> One smack pack, no starter. I used 2L starters on my first two batches (got to make a starter, right?) and had acetyl aldehyde problems as a result. On the other hand, I am not big on deliberately under-pitching to stress the yeast.
> 
> I have a hypothesis that 3068 works much better at the lower end of the ale range of pitching rates. I think over time this has come to be confused with "under pitching" and therefore stressing of the yeast.



Hey Bum!

Acetaldehyde is usually present in a beer that has been removed from the cake too soon/crash chilled too early or other issues relating to yeast handling and fermentation control. E.g. too varied ferment temp (ie. Temps dropped too low and yeast flooced out.) and over pitcing may also be the cause (but unlikely). Id probably say in your case it was caused by either removing from the cake too soon OR temperature control. I'd also agree poitching around a smack pack.. or a small starter (500ml) would be good for the weisen yeast. a little stress will add some more fruitness and get the esters and phenols pushing their upper limits.

Is it worth while trying to revive 3068 from a slant or is it just asking for trouble? Anyone had any success?


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## T.D. (28/7/09)

Hey Fourstar, you left out the IMO!


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## Fourstar (28/7/09)

T.D. said:


> Hey Fourstar, you left out the IMO!



IMO, i reserve the right to leave out the IMO. :lol:


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## T.D. (28/7/09)

IMO you have made the right choice!


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## raven19 (28/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> Is it worth while trying to revive 3068 from a slant or is it just asking for trouble? Anyone had any success?



Yes, I have just recently made a 3068 starter for a Dunkelweisen from a slant. Pitched a 1L starter last night. Starter tasted of banana's but not too overpowering.

Will report back in a week or so once in the keg... :icon_cheers:


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## NeilArge (28/7/09)

Screwtop said:


> Tony is well experienced at decoctions, remember PM'ing him a few years ago when trying to get a handle on the process. My hint is to use a seive to pull thick decoctions for the early steps. I believe Tony will agree that the step to Sacc temp and Mash Out should be thin pulls (wort only) with the aim of only raising the temp. It is very easy to end up with low attenuation when decocting as he says, so keep temps low. Very important to saccharification rest the pull prior to boiling. Boiling the thick pull provides maltiness, have read that some brewers boil for an hour for some styles, although I don't understand what effect this long rest would have while waiting for the boil. A short 15 min boil is fine for wheat beers. Using Munich in the grist is used to provide a little maltiness where decocting is not used.
> 
> Screwy



Sounds like this beer is going to place quite a strain on my system...  ...IMO :lol: 

ToG


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## warrenlw63 (28/7/09)

T.D. said:


> IMO you have made the right choice!



Hey at least he left the "H" for humble out... That would be too much to fathom. :excl: 

Warren -


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## T.D. (28/7/09)

warrenlw63 said:


> Hey at least he left the "H" for humble out... That would be too much to fathom. :excl:
> 
> Warren -



I always thought the "H" stood for "Holy"...?


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## muckanic (28/7/09)

Screwtop said:


> :lol: Warren - you live in hope!!!!



IME, after performing numerous weizen and wit step mashes, it is difficult at classic protein rest temperatures to activate protease without simultaneously activating peptidase. IME, the widespread notion that a 5C temperature difference will prevent this happening ignores various practicalities. OTOH, if the grist is chockas with protein in the first place, then it it is still worth trying to prevent a set mash. IME, enzymes can work a heck of a lot faster than is commonly thought, and that includes during the transition between rest temperatures. IME, with a double batch and 2400W of indirect power input, the mash could spend at least 30 mins in protein digestion territory.

Now for the IMO bit. Humble apologies.  The alleged beta amylase rest at 62C could also function as a protease rest, depending upon factors like pH and how long it is conducted. This could in theory improve body. Similarly, the alleged alpha amylase rest at 72C could also contribute towards starch gelatinisation, depending on factors like the grist composition, the strains of those grains, the growing season, the malting, and the mix of small and large starch granules.

IMO, the fact that Zwickel's weizen mash schedule looks much the same as his pilsener mash schedule gives me pause for thought. That's not a criticism BTW. Apart from anything else, I have no idea how fast he is ramping his temperatures, how he is sparging, what particular malts he is using, etc, etc.


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## Zwickel (28/7/09)

muckanic said:


> IMO, the fact that Zwickel's weizen mash schedule looks much the same as his pilsener mash schedule gives me pause for thought. That's not a criticism BTW. Apart from anything else, I have no idea how fast he is ramping his temperatures, how he is sparging, what particular malts he is using, etc, etc.


sorry mate, you cant see the difference to my Pilsener mash regime?

hmmm... I wouldnt do a ferulic acid rest with my Pilseners, never, but I do a protein rest with all of my Pilseners;
With Weizen I do not protein rest.

With the amylase rests you may play a little bit around, just vary the time, but you need it for both beer styles. 


Cheers :icon_chickcheers:


edit: I forgot, the temp rise time is 1C/min.


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## muckanic (28/7/09)

Zwickel said:


> I wouldnt do a ferulic acid rest with my Pilseners, never, but I do a protein rest with all of my Pilseners;
> With Weizen I do not protein rest.



Apologies for posting from memory. For some reason, I thought you were pre-hydrating your pilseners. So is your pilsener malt under-modified?


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## tdh (28/7/09)

Ohah Zwickel. Die schaukelden Titten machen mich nervs!

tdh


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## Zwickel (28/7/09)

muckanic said:


> .... So is your pilsener malt under-modified?


no, it isnt undermodified, although I dont exactly know the Kolbach-number, should be around 40, I guess.
Our Pilsener malts around here have a Kolbach index of 38 to 41, that means pretty well modified.




tdh said:


> Ohah Zwickel. Die schaukelden Titten machen mich nervs!
> 
> tdh


Hi Thomas, Titten und Bier haben einen besonderen Reiz :wub: 

just press the "Escape" key, then it stops moving


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## blackbock (28/7/09)

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread (from the sidelines..) and since it has become a faux pas to have an opinion, I'll just stay mum and wish ToG all the best with his Weizen!


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## Zwickel (28/7/09)

@muckanic, I did a research about our Kolbach index for the actual Pilsener malts around here.
I have to correct the numbers:

In 2008, our winter barley has got a range from 39.4 to 50.8%
whereas the summer barley has a range from 41.5 to 51.9, in the middle 45.2% 

So I think, that clarifies everything

Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## Steve (28/7/09)

Screwtop said:


> Tony is well experienced at decoctions, remember PM'ing him a few years ago when trying to get a handle on the process.



Screwy, any chance of passing on what you learnt. I think I know what you guys are talking about but not really.
Cheers
Steve


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## Tony (28/7/09)

TunofGrunt said:


> Thanks for the advice on decoctions, Tony. I hadn't heard of having a mini-step in the decoction before, but that sounds sensible. Have you used Aussie wheat before in wheat beer recipes?
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> ToG



Aussie wheat is fine. It wont have as rich a character as wayermann wheat but use it if youve got it!




Screwtop said:


> Tony is well experienced at decoctions, remember PM'ing him a few years ago when trying to get a handle on the process. My hint is to use a seive to pull thick decoctions for the early steps. I believe Tony will agree that the step to Sacc temp and Mash Out should be thin pulls (wort only) with the aim of only raising the temp. It is very easy to end up with low attenuation when decocting as he says, so keep temps low. Very important to saccharification rest the pull prior to boiling. Boiling the thick pull provides maltiness, have read that some brewers boil for an hour for some styles, although I don't understand what effect this long rest would have while waiting for the boil. A short 15 min boil is fine for wheat beers. Using Munich in the grist is used to provide a little maltiness where decocting is not used.
> 
> Screwy



Read below 




T.D. said:


> I always thought the "H" stood for "Holy"...?



me too!




Steve said:


> Screwy, any chance of passing on what you learnt. I think I know what you guys are talking about but not really.
> Cheers
> Steve



I have been thinking of doing an article with full pictures on how i do a decoction mash. Its really quite simple but as i mentioned, there are a few traps like mash temp ect that can be easily avoided if you know about them.

Here is what i usually do.

I mash in at either the feral... ul... ic... whatever temp  or protein rest and when mixed in, imediatly pull a thick decoction to a volume predetermined by promash needed to raise my mash temp to the next step temp once boiling. When i say thick decoction i mean mainly grain with just enough liquid to make it fluid enough to stir. the grain should not have enough liquid in there to be able to move freely. Think porridge!

This is raised gently and stiring non stop to avoil burning, to mash temp..... i usually use about 63 deg, and rest for 15 min here. Heat again while stiring till it boiling and simmer gently for 15 min with the lid on so you dont burn it! Keep an eye on it and make sure it doesnt burn, especially if you have a thin based pot.

I unceremonially "dump" this back in the mash and mix in quick. You should now have it at your mash temp (i use lower temps due to the high order sugars produced by raising the decoction through the high temp mash range while bringing it to the boil.... twice) I mash around 62 to 63 for wheats and 64 to 65 for heavier german lagers like oktoberfest and bock.

Rest at this mash temp for 30 min to convert, then pull a second thick decoction. Raise this strait, but gently to boiling, as its already converted now, stiring the whoile time so it doesnt burn. boil it with the lid on so it doesnt dry out.

By now you will be wondering if you prefer the smell of boiling malt or boiling hops. It smells better than boiling wort. Its a wonderful smell!

I boil the second one for 20 min which will give you about an hour of full conversion in the mash tun. I pour the decoction back in for a Beta rest at around 71. I usually just let it sit for 10 min and mash out at this stage but you can pull a thin decoction at this stage if you want to mash ouot at higher temps. Just bring the this (wort only) decoction to the boil and pour strait back in to raise the temp.

Mash out, sparge, yadda yaddy....................

The reason we pull a thick mash early in the process has 2 functions.

1. Boiling the grain adds a wonderful maltiness to the beer and breaks down the grain to increase conversion in the mash.
2. When we mix in the mash in the first place, most of the enzymes are washed into the liquid in the mash. If we just boil liquid, we kill more enzymes. By boiling more grain and less liquid, we leave more enzymes in the mash to make our yummy sugary wort!

I also usually increase my efficiency by 5% when doing a deciction. I van get over 90% these days doing this!

Also.......... as i said before, the act of boiling the mash will produce break that ends up back in the mash tum. after a couple rounds of this, all the break can stick the mash as all the grain and husk has been soffened up and broken down by boiling. I find a few % Rice gulls is worth adding, or at least having on hand to mix in if needed.

All in all, its a fairly simple thing to do, and can give great results.

cheers


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## Screwtop (28/7/09)

Steve said:


> Screwy, any chance of passing on what you learnt. I think I know what you guys are talking about but not really.
> Cheers
> Steve



Here you have it - ALL

Right from the horses mouth

Screwy





Tony said:


> Aussie wheat is fine. It wont have as rich a character as wayermann wheat but use it if youve got it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tony (28/7/09)

I have actually toyed with the idea of adding a 1" ball valve outlet to my mash tun just above the FB to simply open and run thick mash into a pot.

Would be easier than trying to scoop the thick mash out of the bottom with a dodgy little bucket tapped to a stick!


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## NeilArge (28/7/09)

Tony said:


> I have actually toyed with the idea of adding a 1" ball valve outlet to my mash tun just above the FB to simply open and run thick mash into a pot.
> 
> Would be easier than trying to scoop the thick mash out of the bottom with a dodgy little bucket tapped to a stick!



Tony 

A bloody brilliant series of posts from you! Straightforward, sensible but scientifically informed (the science and art of brewing I'm talking of here). Another classic example of the beauty of this forum. Oh yeah...IM(H)O h34r: .

Thanks mate!

:icon_cheers: 

ToG


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## hefevice (28/7/09)

Fourstar said:


> Hey Bum!
> 
> Acetaldehyde is usually present in a beer that has been removed from the cake too soon/crash chilled too early or other issues relating to yeast handling and fermentation control. E.g. too varied ferment temp (ie. Temps dropped too low and yeast flooced out.) and over pitcing may also be the cause (but unlikely). Id probably say in your case it was caused by either removing from the cake too soon OR temperature control. I'd also agree poitching around a smack pack.. or a small starter (500ml) would be good for the weisen yeast. a little stress will add some more fruitness and get the esters and phenols pushing their upper limits.
> 
> Is it worth while trying to revive 3068 from a slant or is it just asking for trouble? Anyone had any success?



In my case I had temperature control, and left the yeast on the cake for longer than I have in subsequent batches. Since cutting down to 1 packet I have not experienced the problem.


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## warrenlw63 (29/7/09)

Tony what's your starting L/G ratio of the mash? Do you mash in a little thinner to compensate for the liquid lost in the decotion boil? Dependant on the boil time of the decotion there'd certainly be some evaporation in the mash boiling.

With my limited experience with decotion mashing I aways added a little extra liquor to the decoction with the view it would be reduced during the boiling of the portion. I found if you boiled it too thick that it was almost impossible to avoid scorching.

Warren -


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## Tony (29/7/09)

TunofGrunt said:


> Thanks mate!
> 
> :icon_cheers:
> 
> ToG



Not a problem. Im happy to share M(Holy)O's 

Warren.

I mash in at 2.5L/kg as aposed to my usual 3L/kg to make it a bit easier to get a thick decoction.

Yeah....... its easy to scorch but once boiling it takes bugger all heat to keep it there and this is where you need just enough liquid in there to keep it happy and slightly fluid. My Porridge comment earlier was probably a bit harsh. Perhaps musli with just enough liquid to cover it but not let it float.

I find i have to be really really gentle with the bring to boil stage. I drop the heat back the bugger all as it comes to the boil and put the lid on and let it simmer with the lid on. This way there is no real liquid loss, and i give it a stir every couple minuites.

Im getting all excited. I think the 3068 is going to be next in the starter flask.

cheers


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## WitWonder (31/7/09)

Not that I am trying to discount the experience of those who use decoction mashing techniques, but I thought I would pass on some newly acquired (for me anyway) information. A few of us WC brewers are taking the BJCP course and were lucky enough to have a guest speaker (Roger Bussell) talking about malt during this week's session. I asked about decoction mashing and Roger indicated (and I'm paraphrasing) that it is most likely not necessary with the malts of today. The method originated due to the poor, inconsistent malts available (small quantities from lots of different farms) at the time and using a decoction provided a method for the brewer to have a fairly uniform result at the end (not to mention the ability to hit temperatures required consistantly). I also seem to recall Jamil saying he never uses a decoction for any style. 

Having said that, if it works for your beer then go for it. I brewed a weizen recently using a decoction and my brewing partner reckons it's the best beer we've made...


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## muckanic (31/7/09)

WitWonder said:


> I asked about decoction mashing and Roger indicated (and I'm paraphrasing) that it is most likely not necessary with the malts of today.



But was he referring to barley malt or all malts? As I have opined previously, sorry  , I dunno know whether it makes a lot of sense to talk about well-modified wheat or rye malt. And he also presumably wasn't referring to unmalted adjunct brewing either. A further consideration is is he anti-decoctions or anti-step mashing? There is a difference. Decoctions probably are however the simplest way for someone with a non-heatable mash tun to step mash without significant dilution, unless you want to mess around with steam.


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## Tony (31/7/09)

I will agree that today modern well converted malts dont "need" to be decoction mashed.

But by christ it makes them taste good, and thats whats in it for me. THe malt character you get from boiling the mash! Nothing more.

As for poorly converted wheat and rye.......... no problems here. 80+% efficiencies with 70% wheat's with a single infusion mash.

cheers


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## pdilley (16/8/09)

Great information guys, as usual!

I'm going to start brewing a hefeweizen using the information here for mash schedule in the next 30 minutes but modified slightly for BIAB technique and I cultured some Schfferhofer yeast in some left over wort from my previous batch. It has come up beautifully as you can see.





Has anyone given this yeast a go? I have some WLP300 in the fridge but was curious about this yeast to try it unless anyone knows a good reason not to? 

EDIT: Forgot to add I will be using the "Add up to 30C" fermentation temperature schedule for hefeweizen this time. I am not sure how much phenols this yeast will push so I will hope for balance with 12 pitch and an 18 ferment.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## [email protected] (7/9/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> I'm going to start brewing a hefeweizen using the information here for mash schedule in the next 30 minutes but modified slightly for BIAB technique and I cultured some Schfferhofer yeast in some left over wort from my previous batch. It has come up beautifully as you can see.
> 
> Has anyone given this yeast a go? I have some WLP300 in the fridge but was curious about this yeast to try it unless anyone knows a good reason not to?
> 
> EDIT: Forgot to add I will be using the "Add up to 30C" fermentation temperature schedule for hefeweizen this time. I am not sure how much phenols this yeast will push so I will hope for balance with 12 pitch and an 18 ferment.



Hey Pete,

How did the Schfferhofer yeast culture go in your brew?
We have it on tap at one pub in Newcastle now and I have to say it gives Franziskaner a run (almost) as my favourite Hefe... :icon_drool2: 

I am on the path to an AG setup and, having meticulously read this thread 3 times now, I think a Hefe will have to be my first AG brew.



Hi Tony,

Do you frequent Mark's Home Brew?

Mark has mentioned a home brewer known for great wheat beers in our area and I thought it might be you.

Either way, fantastic info mate. I look forward to putting the decoction vs infusion arguments to the test to see for myself.


Cheers to all you sharing, caring weizen lovers for your input on this one! :beer: 

Joel


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## pdilley (8/9/09)

Makes a great tasting wheat beer just like the original. My next chance of brewing with this yeast will be with an increase from the 12/18 temp to say 12/21 to see what eater profile it throws. At 18 its on the cleaner side just like from out of the bottle. I've been too busy to bottle the finished beer as I've been building hives so its almost 2 weeks sat on the kitchen counter top -- a dangerous place as I keep sneaking small glasses from it!

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## NeilArge (9/9/09)

Hi Tony

I'm finally about to put this wheat beer down using your mash schedule. Just a quick question, though: I guess you'd recommend I get some rice hulls? If so, what weight for a c. 5kg grain bill, with c. 50% wheat?

Cheers

ToG


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## TidalPete (9/9/09)

TunofGrunt said:


> Hi Tony
> 
> I'm finally about to put this wheat beer down using your mash schedule. Just a quick question, though: I guess you'd recommend I get some rice hulls? If so, what weight for a c. 5kg grain bill, with c. 50% wheat?
> 
> ...



For anything over 400g wheat I use rice gulls at 10% of the grain bill.
Sorry for busting in Tony.  

TP


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## Fourstar (9/9/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Makes a great tasting wheat beer just like the original.



Interesting to know considering breweries filter their weizens and bottle with a stable lager yeast for storage purposes. Maybe they dont.


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## NeilArge (9/9/09)

TidalPete said:


> For anything over 400g wheat I use rice gulls at 10% of the grain bill.
> Sorry for busting in Tony.
> 
> TP



Thanks TP. Much appreciated.

Cheers

ToG


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## pdilley (11/9/09)

Fourstar said:


> Interesting to know considering breweries filter their weizens and bottle with a stable lager yeast for storage purposes. Maybe they dont.



Hey Fourstar,

The smell of banana in the bottles when culturing the yeast from Schfferhofer was a bit of a give away that I was dealing with the goods so I put the WLP300 tube back into the fridge for future use and went with the Schfferhofer yeast which by now was expanding in volume rapidly in now an ALDI 2L juice container 

My local club members seem to like heavy esters thrown into their beers from taste samples at club meets so I'll see next brew chance what this Schfferhofer yeast is capable of by kicking the fermentation temperature up above 18 to close to 20-21 C.

Filtering and bottling with another yeast both cost money and maybe Schfferhofer is from a small brewery without the budget to spend on protecting yeast IP?


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## tdh (11/9/09)

Schoefferhofer is a huge brewery in Frankfurt and last I read is that the yeast found in their bottle is a *lager *strain.

The only Weissbier that I've seen in AUS that uses their ferment strain in the bottle is Schneider.

tdh


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## pdilley (11/9/09)

Now I'm curious. I'll cap a yeasty bottle of it at the end of bottling this batch and reserve and put down another one for the next brew and see what comes out.

I'll be taking a sample down to the LHBS tomorrow for some additional judging as well as I'd hate to end up with the wrong yeast.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## pdilley (12/9/09)

Righto guys from our morning tasting session - Amarillo Ale, Wheat Beer with the cultured yeast, and Meads 

Back to report that it is definitely not a lager yeast.

Its a yeast that threw a decent amount of Cloves at 18C and not much Banana.

I am making a new batch today and have another bottle from the bottle shop. I will be doing this one at 24C to see how much Banana if any is thrown.

Then I can say with 100% certainty that its a yeast that may not be a wheat beer yeast but that it sure throws Cloves at low temps and Banana at higher temps like a wheat beer yeast 


Changing my step mash schedule as well. Moving 43C out of the picture due to the yeast flavour profile in the fermented beer and moving it up to the 50's for the first step.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## pdilley (12/9/09)

Ok guys.

I'm all rocked and ready to try a second round.

Got another Schfferhofer from the bottle shop. I use the refrigerated ones, as it might have a tiny sliver of a chance of being a little tiny bit more preserved.

Cost $5.49, so almost the price of US-05 yeast but I get to drink the beer.

Beer is very similar to what I brewed except at my temperatures I didn't get the tiny amount of Banana showing through but I got all the Cloves. This fermentation will be at 24C to see the Ester potential and potency to help dial-in a balanced profile for this particular yeast if and only if it does throw banana and is worthy of continued brew experimentation.




My wort is pre-hop and pre-boil so very virgin for re-culturing yeast in the bottle. So I took advantage of the nice day to get a warm bottle now that my Brew Fridge is empty and powered off.


I took the original yeast and made a yeasty bottle. Using the old original bottle and its original bottle cap. I thought it was fitting.




They say, being a mixed yeast culture that doing this for wheat beers is not done. I'll be willing to bet the third wheat beer batch using this yeast to learn that first hand. As it stands the Cloves were spot on and the beer was tasty, so its not a waste to me if it doesn't become a go-er.

The mash schedule I used.
43, 62, 72 Resulted in many fermentable sugars and a drier finish beer than the original bottle.

With my LHBS we decided upon a two-step mash schedule to improve residual maltiness with the highly modified modern malts.
52, 65

Wort is already brewed and chilling.

If culturing turns out well I might pitch Monday and get the Brew Fridge fired up and ready.

I'll keep the three step mash schedule for my Ales, they are turning out crackers on it and dial the numbers around to fine tune them.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Zwickel (12/9/09)

Hello brewers,

sorry for the effort, but in Schfferhofer is *not* the original yeast. Schfferhofer exchanges the yeast after fermentation has finished, into a pasteurized yeast to avoid autolysis.

Beers with the original yeasts in the bottles are:

applicative wheat beers are:

Schneider-Weisse,
Maisel Hefeweizen,
Kuchlbauer Weisse,
Ritter St. Georgen-Brauerei,
Gutmann Hefeweizen,
Pinkus-Hefeweizen,
Prinzregent-Luitpold-Weizen,
Appenzeller Hefeweizen (Swizerland),
Tucher Hefeweizen.

*inapplicable:*

Erdinger,
Schfferhofer,
Oettinger,
Franziskaner,
Andechser,
Pyraser 


Cheers :icon_cheers:


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## pdilley (12/9/09)

Cheers for the list Zwickel I will take it to the bottle shop next trip as we have a decent selection of imports. The hefe's were not a large group but I have my hopes up of finding a decent candidate for the fourth bottle culture brew experiment.

The yeast slurry at bottling (I am assuming tank conditioning is used for Schfferhofer and a slurry added at bottling) is still alive and well and culturing. I'm still curious enough to run a few more brews from it as I've been getting good results so far as to what the slurry yeast really is. If it is the yeast collected from the tank conditioning and pasteurised for bottling slurry then I might still get some results yet.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete

EDIT: Spelling, list is now typed in my iPhone ready to go to the shop


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## Zwickel (12/9/09)

Pete, the list is already many years old, written by some German homebrewers, so no guarantee the breweries are still applying the same procedures.

Actual very popular over here are the yeasties from Schneider and Maisels, with this you cant go wrong.

Cheers mate :icon_cheers:


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## pdilley (13/9/09)

Stars next to Schneider and Maisels on my list now, thank you for the tip.

You still could be right about Schfferhofer, I just might have been lucky and had gotten a bottle from a batch with partially finished pasteurisation. The proof will be in the doing as to what turns out in the finished beer.

I have the yeast saved from the original Schfferhofer in its original bottle - It has settled into about 3 to 4 cm of liquid at the top and the rest of the bottle filled with yeast, low carbonation primed with sugar and then into the fridge for storage.

If the second bottle of Schfferhofer is not the go on re-culturing yeast then I'll be happy I saved the first bottle's yeast.

Fingers crossed 

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## pdilley (13/9/09)

Off the subject of yeast and back to the subject of Mash.

The two-step mash schedule has made a lighter wort pre-boil, and I will comment on the post-boil colour when I have poured it into the fermenter.

However I did change one grain. Originally I was going to make a Belgian Wheat Beer, but I faltered at the end, my heart went to Germany  and I made a German style. However, I still had the original non malted wheat grain for the Belgian style in the recipe.

The second Mash has malted wheat grain and a two-step Mash schedule.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## pdilley (14/9/09)

Quick note, second bottle of Schfferhofer is culturing away nicely. I was rushed for time this weekend building chicken house and getting the yard sorted so I didn't start with 10mL and step up from there. I put the whole 500mL of wort into the bottle and added the Oz Top. After about 1 1/2 to 2 days the action was evident. Today I did lots of burping when I got home from work and turning the bottle around slowly in circles gave off a lot of CO2 bubbles inside the bottle to burp after it settled down. Heavy wheat aroma masking anything in the CO2 right now to tell if it gives off Banana like the first yeast did when stepping up inside the 2L juice bottle. Will see what it puts out when I pour it off into the 2L bottle tomorrow. Plan on stepping up to about 700 mL or so.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


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## Zwickel (14/9/09)

Brewer Pete said:


> Quick note, second bottle of Schfferhofer is culturing away nicely. I was rushed for time this weekend building chicken house and getting the yard sorted so I didn't start with 10mL and step up from there. I put the whole 500mL of wort into the bottle and added the Oz Top. After about 1 1/2 to 2 days the action was evident. Today I did lots of burping when I got home from work and turning the bottle around slowly in circles gave off a lot of CO2 bubbles inside the bottle to burp after it settled down. Heavy wheat aroma masking anything in the CO2 right now to tell if it gives off Banana like the first yeast did when stepping up inside the 2L juice bottle. Will see what it puts out when I pour it off into the 2L bottle tomorrow. Plan on stepping up to about 700 mL or so.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brewer Pete



Pete, thats great. So the list Ive posted should be corrected.

What about putting that yeasties on slants? so in future you dont need to buy a bottle of Schfferhofer again.

:icon_cheers:


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## NeilArge (5/10/09)

I finally got the chance to put this weizen down yesterday. The cooler weather would seem to be ideal for keeping the fermentation at c.16C, so that's a bonus. However, I missed my temps quite a bit with the decoction mashes, and dropped back into the 60s for efficiency  . I'm wondering if the decoctions I pulled were a bit too thick so that even though they had boiled for 15-20 mins. there wasn't enough boiling liquid to raise the temp of the mash in the tun. I was a fair way off the final alpha amylase step, and then had to lift the heat to c. 70 with boiling water additions. 
Is my hunch right, or did something else go awry?

Cheers

ToG


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