# Making Sour Beers



## manticle (27/11/09)

I did a quick google search on sour beer, aussiehomebrewer and came up with little. Obviously the site engine on this site will just give a the word sour eleven million times without answering any questions.

So apologies if this is something someone's been asked a few times.

I'm interested in developing a sour citrus porter or something along those lines. I've never done anything like this and so would appreciate any assistance with developing a recipe and technique.

So far all I have in mind is to buy 2 smaller fermenters solely for this and any descendants.
Basic porter recipe but with maybe higher IBU as it will probably get aged.

Then it looks like I have a few options.

1. Ferment with neutral yeast, add lactobacillus (not sure when and how this is done)
2. Ferment with flavoursome belgian style yeast, add lactobacillus
3. Ferment with brett, add lactobacillus
4 Ferment with either of the first two, add lacto and then later add brett

For citrus, I'm looking at racking onto a secondary with a blend of the zests and flesh of a blend of blood oranges and ruby red grapefruits then racking back after fermentation is complete. I'm then thinking of ageing this with some oak chips. Again these are something I've not used. The possibility of fortifying some of this with a rich port appeals to my mind but maybe this will destroy the flavour?

Can anyone into sour styles tell me just how far off the mark I am?


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## joshuahardie (27/11/09)

In my sour beers, I always ferment with the regular beer yeast first, let it ferment out, 
transfer to secondary and then add my bugs.

I should add the earlier you add your bugs in the ferment the stronger their role will be. (really poor explanation)
I would be interested to see that others would do, but I would be tempted to go with the laco rather than the brett.

If it is not crazy enough for you after the laco has finished, you can always up the ante by adding brett.

I have found Jamil's Berliner Weisse pod cast to be very helpful in guiding me

Will love to see the results of your experiment.


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## tdh (27/11/09)

I'd say you'll get enough sourness from the right yeast.

Brad McMahon has used the Roeselare yeast and that had a very palatable sourness. Maybe he can offer some tips.

tdh


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## joshuahardie (27/11/09)

Roeselare is a combo of yeast / bugs
but yeah it could give the flavour profile he is after.


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## manticle (27/11/09)

I did find these pages in my hunt.

http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/200...-with-acid.html

http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/200...er-at-home.html

http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:HdwN8...=clnk&gl=au

All of which seem to contain some useful information.

@tdh: sorry to seem ignorant but who is Brad?

Cheers all.


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## tdh (27/11/09)

Brad must be somewhere. Haven't noticed his presence here for ages. I think he still brews.
You out there Brad?


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## Dazza_devil (27/11/09)

This is very interesting Manticle.
Tell me to butt out ifya want cause I know nothing about this and never fermented anything sour on purpose.
I've just been reading a bit out of Jamil and Palmer's Classic Styles and they mention ageing in Oak barrels can impart sourness from the organisms which are harbouring in the barrel, so the barrel imparts both wood and non-wood flavours. I don't know if you have the book or not but there is some detail on using wood cubes, chips or sawdust. They do suggest racking off the chips at an interval which is dependant on amount and size of wood chips etc. I can summarise some of this if you don't have access to the info.
Also mentioned in the sour ale chapter is an addition of lactic acid as an alternative to bacteria, probably an inferior result though. Also mentioned is innoculating the wort with a handful of grain, which usually contains lactobacillus, let it sit for a day or two at 38 degrees C then boil to stop the action of various bugs leaving a fixed amount of residual sourness. 
Just some alternatives to using Lactobacillus delbuekii with a neutral ale yeast which will probalby give a superior result. Also suggested to split wort three ways and combine the three. 
You could fortify with some whiskey after it's aged with the wood.

Edit; they say to add both yeasts together and ferment at 19degrees C


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## brettprevans (27/11/09)

ok so on this topic, you could add lactic acid. but thats expensive at almost $10 per 25ml. are we better off using say Wyeast 5335 - Lactobacillus and culturing it up? or because its yeast, does it limit us only using it when there is fermentable sugars left for the yeast to grow?

in short, is there an easy, cheap was of souring beers?

yes im aware the answer is probably lactic acid is a 'cheats' way to fix/change beer post fermentation


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## Fourstar (27/11/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> ok so on this topic, you could add lactic acid. but thats expensive at almost $10 per 25ml.



more like $10 for 250ml  not to mention you can control how sour you want it.


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## brettprevans (27/11/09)

Fourstar said:


> more like $10 for 250ml  not to mention you can control how sour you want it.


ahh bugger. misread it. well that seems reasonable now.


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## manticle (27/11/09)

Boagsy said:


> This is very interesting Manticle.
> Tell me to butt out ifya want cause I know nothing about this and never fermented anything sour on purpose.



I'm interested in all sources. Certainly I want to hear from people who've done it but ultimately I have to make up my own mind by discerning which bit of information makes sense to me. While some people may not like it, I don't see a problem with using a reference as long as you're clear where it comes from and don't claim to be an expert with the all defining truth.

Therefore cheers for the info.


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## Quintrex (27/11/09)

citymorgue2 said:


> ok so on this topic, you could add lactic acid. but thats expensive at almost $10 per 25ml. are we better off using say Wyeast 5335 - Lactobacillus and culturing it up? or because its yeast, does it limit us only using it when there is fermentable sugars left for the yeast to grow?
> 
> in short, is there an easy, cheap was of souring beers?
> 
> yes im aware the answer is probably lactic acid is a 'cheats' way to fix/change beer post fermentation



Using lactobacillus will probably give moderate sourness as it's not that alcohol tolerant. THeres some good graphs out there by raj apte showing this i believe.

I found using qumquats in the boil gave an appreciable bitterness contribution, however this faded with time.

I'd be wary of using brettanomyces in a porter as you'll want some residual sugars left to make it balanced.

You could consider doing an all brettanomyces ferment, as suprisingly an all brett ferment doesn't super-attenuate.

Cheers
Q


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## Supra-Jim (27/11/09)

some (potentially) useful information on sour mashing:

http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...hing-techniques

Cheers SJ


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## Dazza_devil (27/11/09)

On using 3763 Roeselare in a manner which allows control of sourness levels from Jamil and Palmer's Classic Styles,

This is from the keys to brewing Flanders Red Ale,
They prefer to preferment the beer with a neutral ale yeast, using up most available sugars prior to adding 3763. Apparently the alcohol supresses yeast and bacteria activity but too much alcohol can prevent yeast and bacteria getting started.
Sourness in Flanders is derived from lactic and acetic acid. More oxygen during fermentation equals more acetic. Oak barrels can allow a suitable amount of oxygen to enter.

They also mention a pellicle but I'm off and will be reading up on this.


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## manticle (27/11/09)

3763 sounds like a goer for a beginner.

Anyone have any notions on how the results compare to 3278 (lambic strain)?


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## pmolou (27/11/09)

i've recently got into the sour beers aswell, i don't have much experience with lacto by itself but i've recently (as in yesturday) brewed a 100% brett C beer with galaxy and acidulated malt... which i was going for a sour tropical fruity beer, so i'll post back with results after a few weeks...

also just another option to consider could be to simply put in the dregs of a cantilon bottle as their beers are often quite acidic and sour... although i think you'd have a less predictable outcome than just pitching lacto or pedio


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## Quintrex (27/11/09)

manticle said:


> 3763 sounds like a goer for a beginner.
> 
> Anyone have any notions on how the results compare to 3278 (lambic strain)?



IMO a lot more flavour character from brettanomyces in the lambic strain, more muted flavour contributions from 3763, the first pitch of roeselare doesn't sour that much, unless you leave it for years, the second pitch however sours beautifully

Cheers
Q


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## Doogiechap (27/11/09)

I tossed the dregs of two Orval bottles into 20 litres of racked Saison that stalled at 1030. 18 months later it certainly has a sour charachter.
(and fermented out an additional 30 points  ).
Sounds interesting bloke


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## manticle (27/11/09)

So far my ideas are:

1. Make up a darkish base (not specifically porter but red-brown) with high bittering but no flavour or aroma hops
2. Mash high to allow residual sugars at FG
3. Ferment with neutral ale yeast like 1056 or us05
4. Rack to secondary, add 3763 or 3278
5. Rack onto citrus
6. Rack onto oak chips 
7. Brew another beer and make slightly sour with either sour mash or lactobacillus.
8. Taste both and blend as needed
9. Fortify 1/3 with single malt, one third with fortified wine and leave one third as is (unless it tastes amazing as is in which case fortification will be either minimal or non existent).

This will be a long term project.


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## Quintrex (27/11/09)

manticle said:


> So far my ideas are:
> 
> 1. Make up a darkish base (not specifically porter but red-brown) with high bittering but no flavour or aroma hops
> 2. Mash high to allow residual sugars at FG
> ...



I'd follow the KISS principle for your first foray into sour beers.

And bitterness and sourness clash, most sour beers are very modestly bittered. something worth keeping in mind.

Q


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## Nick JD (27/11/09)

Would Dan Murphys have a sour beer in stock? I've never tried one.


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## manticle (27/11/09)

Quintrex said:


> I'd follow the KISS principle for your first foray into sour beers.
> 
> And bitterness and sourness clash, most sour beers are very modestly bittered. something worth keeping in mind.
> 
> Q



The main reason I'm looking at high bitterness is because of the age. MY understanding (and I'll happily accept guidance on this) is that bitterness will mellow with age but the preservative qualities of the hops will assist with the ageing. That's why a barley wine works after a year or more while a hefe only works within a finite window.

What general IBU range would you suggest (I'm actually not a high IBU man preferring malty, rich and caramel type flavours generally)?

I figure if I can hang onto a fermenting beer for a year, those steps will simplify themselves because a lot of it will be ferment and forget. I agree with kiss which is why I'll go with a commercial souring product (first idea had pedio followed by brett etc etc). Fortification is just an idea at this stage and is neither here nor there. I'll revisit that the year after I've put this down.


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## brettprevans (27/11/09)

Nick JD said:


> Would Dan Murphys have a sour beer in stock? I've never tried one.


you mean other than infected or skunky arse megaswill that's not meant to taste sour  !!!

thye should have at least a couple. they should have something like a kriek, framboise, maybe some thing like a cantillion gueuze


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## Stuster (27/11/09)

I think a porter with brett is good. I've made a couple and I thought they worked well. Not sure about adding a lacto culture to it. Hmm. Might work.

I totally agree with Quintrex that you don't need to go high for bitterness if you are going to sour it.

Personally, I think that you could simplify your plans a bit. There's a lot going on there. I think I'd start with either a brett porter which you add citrus to or age it on oak chips, not both. Or use either the Roeselare yeast or a lambic yeast and nothing else. See how those go and work from there. Otherwise I think it might end up with too many competing flavours.

The alternative is to make a really big batch (or several consecutive batches) and split the batch into several 10-15L portions. You can then try different things with different things.

There's some info on sour beers here and that might give you a few ideas. And you could post on the Babble Belt for the opinion of some real experts on sour beers.

Anyway, good luck with it but make sure you know what you want out of the other end before you start.


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## manticle (27/11/09)

Yeastwise I was only going to go for one of the two wyeasts (unless you mean bypassing the neutral primary yeast?) I'll drop the idea of high bitterness. Something around 30?

As for the oak and citrus, maybe I'll try a split batch. Might drop the fortification idea for now.

Thanks for the links.

I have an idea of what I want although half the fun is not knowing exactly what will happen. 

Basically though: rich, sour citrus reminiscent of wine, wineries, oak barrels and all the lovely fermenty musty type things you can taste in a lambic of Normandy cider or smell in a winery. Winter dessert, tart, refreshing but comforting like a slightly stinky cheese eaten with a rich sour citrus liqueur. Complexities and layers that have been given a chance to mature and separate. That kind of thing.


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## EK (27/11/09)

Perhaps Wild Brews by Jeff Sparrow would be useful as it covers a few types of sour beers. The book "Explores the world of Lambics, Flanders red and Flanders brown beers."
Available from Amazon, Beertown and Booktopia and other places. No affiliation etc. etc.

:icon_cheers: 
EK


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## KillerRx4 (27/11/09)

Quintrex said:


> IMO a lot more flavour character from brettanomyces in the lambic strain, more muted flavour contributions from 3763, the first pitch of roeselare doesn't sour that much, unless you leave it for years, the second pitch however sours beautifully
> 
> Cheers
> Q



I did a Flanders red with roselare, first pitch is way to sour for my palate after 15 months. First impression I got was wow, i'm drinking vinegar! Did well in competition though.

Second pitch is still hibernating in a cube, god knows how sour that is going to be.


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## Dazza_devil (27/11/09)

Just a thought. If your end product is very sour after say 12-24 months you could use it as a sour additive to a fresher brew. Easily control your sourness to the desired level by blending it with whatever you like.


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## t2000kw (28/11/09)

Have you considered using acidulated malt?

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Acidulated_malt

I've used it when making a Guinness clone and it works well for that. It gives it that sour "twang" that's not too prominent but it is there.

Don


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## manticle (28/11/09)

I might put a touch in but I'm really looking for something with quite an intensity (although I want balance and complexity too) rather than a subtelty. I know that I like sourness in other brews that I've tried - the main thing is getting the techniques right.


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## manticle (28/11/09)

Someone from the babblebelt forum that stuster linked to me posted this (not in response to my question) which is very detailed and may be of interest to anyone interested in brewing any kind of sour beer:

http://brewery.org/library/LmbicJL0696.html#Fruit


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## beers (29/11/09)

Here's another blog you may find helpful manticle. http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/200...er-at-home.html
Reading that blog has got me itching to try my hand at another Flanders Red. But my funkified conditioning cube has a lambic sitting in it at the moment..


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## manticle (29/11/09)

I posted that link a bit earlier. Great blogspot though.


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## Swinging Beef (29/11/09)

Im keen on sour beers too right now.
Just finishing off a 10litre split batch of trippel that was kinda uninteresting and its big sister that I split out and added the dreggs of two Orval bottles to and racked for a month.
The dreggy one is exceptional.
Im planning to brett attack probably around 20% of all future brews.
I like the idea of a brety porter.
Hmm....

Just whatever changes you make to sour them up, try to split the batch to provide you with a "control" to compare to while you are sorting things out. And remembner to only change one thing at a time.


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## neonmeate (29/11/09)

Swinging Beef said:


> I like the idea of a bretty porter.
> [/quote
> 
> can recommend that highly after tasting stuster's


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## manticle (7/12/09)

Okay.

Roselare yeast to be ordered this coming week. I bought 2 fifteen litre fermenters and a glass carboy for ageing.

Current recipe is:

Style: Oud Bruin
Type: All grain
Size: 15 liters
Color: 32 HCU (~16 SRM) 
OG: 1.046
FG: 1.005
Alcohol: 5.3% v/v (4.2% w/w)
Grain: 2kg JW Pilsner
1kg JW Munich I
20g Roasted barley
Mash: 70% efficiency @ 68 deg
Boil: 60 minutes 
SG 1.030 
500g homemade dark Belgian candi sugar added part way in primary (thinking of dropping this in favour of more malt but have come across it in Flanders style recipes)
Hops: Northern Brewer (8.5% AA, 60 min.) to around 2o IBU or less
Primary: 1056 - around 7 days
Secondary: 3763 Roselare

Once FG is reached, rack into glass carboy.
Glass Carboy will contain 5 kg Ruby red grapefruit (depipped) and 5 kg blood orange (depipped) as well as a hop bag with around 10g oak chips that have been soaked in single malt whisky for a week.

Hopefully I can leave it alone for a year or so. 

The last couple of lambics I've tried have been very sour (which I like ) but other characters have been acking. I'm aiming for complexity and layering in the final product. The good thing about it is, after a year if it doesn't taste how I want, I'm sure I can work out ways to take it in a different direction.

Any thoughts from sour beer enthusiasts welcomed.


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## kabooby (8/12/09)

manticle said:


> Okay.
> 
> Roselare yeast to be ordered this coming week. I bought 2 fifteen litre fermenters and a glass carboy for ageing.
> 
> ...



Recipe looks like it will give you a great beer.

Here's a few things to consider

- Old Bruin and flanders reds tend to have a portion of maize in the grist. 
- Generally Old bruins are aged in stainless and flanders reds are aged in oak barrels.
- Keep the recipe simple. These beers are made with the yeast, aging and blending of different beers.

Personally I would leave the fruit out for now. You will get a lot of fruit character from the yeast and aging. If you find in 12 months that you want more character you can always add it then. Best to do a base beer first that is simple. This will let you know exactly what you are getting from the yeast. 

Kabooby


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## Stuster (8/12/09)

I agree about the fruit, although I would suggest adding fruit to half of it. With my first batch of Flanders Red I bottled most of it, but put 5L onto some raspberries. That came out really well actually, although it's hard to say if it wasn't partly that it matured for another 9 months or so on the raspberries.

I think you'd probably want to add some crystal malts in there. Gives the bugs something to chew on.


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## Quintrex (8/12/09)

Stuster said:


> I agree about the fruit, although I would suggest adding fruit to half of it. With my first batch of Flanders Red I bottled most of it, but put 5L onto some raspberries. That came out really well actually, although it's hard to say if it wasn't partly that it matured for another 9 months or so on the raspberries.
> 
> I think you'd probably want to add some crystal malts in there. Gives the bugs something to chew on.



If he added the fruit at a later stage the fruit sugars will feed the bugs primarily, resulting in increased acidity, however the grapefruit also has a large amount of acids present naturally, once the sugar is gone, this acidity will become a lot more evident. I think manticle's biggest problem will be making this one not too acidic.

I definitely agree with kabooby, keep it simple, make the base beer first, then add the fruit later(or do half with / half without). There are so many variables in these beers and so much complexity already, the biggest thing you have to do is wait.

My 2 cents would be to increase the gravity of the brew a whisker (maybe to 1.055-1.065), as this will prevent the souring occurring too much and will also give it more aging potential, you'll still get heaps of brett character though.

Cheers
Q


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## brettprevans (8/12/09)

KillerRx4 said:


> First impression I got was wow, i'm drinking vinegar! Did well in competition though.



hmm interesting. I have a beer atm that is just full on lactic. Maple tried and nearly died. I was going to chuck it, but maybe I should keep a few bottles and enter it into comps! 

Quintrex - actually I might send you a bottle for your feedback. I dont mind if the response is "its fkn awful, chuck it!". Its not actually meant to be a sour beer. it is the partigyle brew i did with recultered coopers yeast.


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## manticle (8/12/09)

Quintrex said:


> If he added the fruit at a later stage the fruit sugars will feed the bugs primarily, resulting in increased acidity, however the grapefruit also has a large amount of acids present naturally, once the sugar is gone, this acidity will become a lot more evident. I think manticle's biggest problem will be making this one not too acidic.
> 
> I definitely agree with kabooby, keep it simple, make the base beer first, then add the fruit later(or do half with / half without). There are so many variables in these beers and so much complexity already, the biggest thing you have to do is wait.
> 
> ...



I am ordering 2 packs of roselare. I'm very keen on the sour citrus idea and don't want to have to wait 2 years before ttrying but you guys have got me convinced that I might be best making two brews - one with and one without. I'll look at beefing it up gravity and body wise too.


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## brettprevans (8/12/09)

manticle. Dave & I made an oud bruin with roselare. mines straight roselare and Dav's gone nuts and added oak and scotch to his. when they are ready to drink your wlecome to try some. Im bottling mine over xmas after about 4-5months fermenting/funking


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## manticle (8/12/09)

Sounds like a great idea to me.

let me know.

Cheers


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## kabooby (8/12/09)

It depends on how you want to do it. If you want a sour beer straight away look into sour mashing or ferment with lacto and sach strains. This will give you sourness straight away. Brett will take much longer to develop.

You will find that most of your sourness will come from pedio and lacto. Brett will add a little bit of sourness and lots of complexity.

Kabooby


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## manticle (8/12/09)

It's the complexity I'm chasing in conjunction with the sourness. Ageing is something I want to experiment with. Two batches - one fruited and one non fruited seems the answer.


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