# Too Much Carapils



## Aces High (23/12/10)

Been lurking a while and have made my first screw up, so now comes my first post also

I was playing around with the kit & extract designer I found on here.. what an awsome tool to get your head around how things change your beers charastics.

The old adage of a little bit of knowledge is dangerous fits here pretty well. I thought i'd come up with a good pilsner recipe by playing around with LME, DME & grains, but it wasn't till after I finished and read a little more about carapils did i realise that I've used way too much. 

I put 1kg in for a 23L batch. I adjusted everything else to match so the SG & OD looked right, but from what I can tell the carapils doesn't have any diastatic power and is going to make a lot of unfermentables and also leave a lot of starch in the beer. Ive converted grains for distilling before and I knew something wasn't right when i was doing it

I finished making the wort and the SG was 1045 and its fementing away ok

Can someone have a guess at what will happen and whether I can save it or just need to chuck it and start again

cheers


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## Dazza_devil (23/12/10)

Don't chuck it.
What was your recipe?


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## Aces High (23/12/10)

Boagsy said:


> Don't chuck it.
> What was your recipe?




Brewcraft (muntons) Pilsner can added straight to fementer

1.2kg of light dry malt. 700g added during the boil and the rest at flameout

1kg carapils, steep for about 1 hour. Sparged grains poorly through a strainer

20g Saaz @ 60min
10g Saaz @ 20min
10g Saaz @ 0min


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## brocky_555 (23/12/10)

wow thats a lot of carapils 

Not sure what to do with that one, still wouldn't throw it out though never thow beer out unless its infected and only then you have to be sure


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## Dazza_devil (23/12/10)

Well I don't know really what's best to try and balance it out.
Perhaps adding some dextrose, 800g or so may help to bring your FG down a bit.
Maybe you could boil up some hops with the dextrose to add some more bitterness.
Then dry-hop with some more saaz after fermentation has slowed to put back some aroma.
You might be pushing IPA territory though.

I would be tempted to suck it and see, I doubt it will be undrinkable perhaps just a little sweet.


What yeast did you use?


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## manticle (23/12/10)

Aces High said:


> Been lurking a while and have made my first screw up, so now comes my first post also
> 
> I was playing around with the kit & extract designer I found on here.. what an awsome tool to get your head around how things change your beers charastics.
> 
> ...



Yes 1kg in a normal single batch is too much. However I think you've misunderstood something. Carapils and other crystals have no diastatic power but they don't need to. Starches have been converted in the kilning process and so you won't get starches or unfermentables.


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## brocky_555 (23/12/10)

I think you will get unfermentables and dextrines thats what you use crystal malts for.
You will get a sweet beer but also you may get an overload of sweetness. Just as a small amount of carapils will give head retention and body, that may work to a point. What happens after that point ? It may not be undrinkable but it will definately be undesirable. It may be a case of too much of a good thing. You will chalk this one up to experience and move on with your brewing please inform us of your results so that we might all know what happens when you have way too much carapils.

Brocky out


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## jyo (23/12/10)

You could boil a small amount of Saaz, say 30 gms for 30 minutes in some LDME, strain and cool then add as a hop tea to try to balance the sweetness...just thinking, but as others have said, don't tip it.
Cheers, John.


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## kelbygreen (23/12/10)

Boagsy said:


> Well I don't know really what's best to try and balance it out.
> Perhaps adding some dextrose, 800g or so may help to bring your FG down a bit.
> Maybe you could boil up some hops with the dextrose to add some more bitterness.
> Then dry-hop with some more saaz after fermentation has slowed to put back some aroma.
> ...




how could adding dextrose bring FG down unless its like 120% fermentable  it will thin the beer out but the FG will be higher if you add dextrose just the alcohol content will be higher. You could as you say add a little dex and more hops to balance it out but you say 1045 OG with 1.2kg of LDME and a can thats about right without the carapils so Id say go for it maybe add 200g dex at most but from my thought carapils is a dextrine malt?? and mainly adds to head retention? could be wrong but.

Have a read of this says increses mouth feel and body without adding flavour or colour. READ!


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## Dazza_devil (23/12/10)

kelbygreen said:


> how could adding dextrose bring FG down unless its like 120% fermentable  it will thin the beer out but the FG will be higher if you add dextrose just the alcohol content will be higher. You could as you say add a little dex and more hops to balance it out but you say 1045 OG with 1.2kg of LDME and a can thats about right without the carapils so Id say go for it maybe add 200g dex at most but from my thought carapils is a dextrine malt?? and mainly adds to head retention? could be wrong but.
> 
> Have a read of this says increses mouth feel and body without adding flavour or colour. READ!



I used to add dextrose to my extract brews so they finished lower but was replacing LDME. My all extract beers were finishing a little cloying and high. The dex certainly had a positive effect on my beers producing a drier finish, 20% of fermentables as dex worked for me. Perhaps the dex will help the yeast chew through a little more of the less fermentable parts of the malt.
Is the Briess Carapils the sam as the Weyermann Carapils? I thought I remember reading somewhere there was a difference with the malt that the yanks were calling carapils, certainly reads up the same though. Was there something in a thread somewhere about the American carapils having to be mashed?


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## bum (23/12/10)

kelbygreen said:


> Have a read of this says increses mouth feel and body without adding flavour or colour. READ!


So you're suggesting it'll be syrupy, have a 6ft head but'll taste the same as designed? I call bullshit on that. It will effect the flavour for sure.

As others have suggested upping the bitterness will balance it out a bit but it'll be nigh on impossible to hide your mistake. Good luck with it.


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## Cocko (23/12/10)

You could also try about.. 14... teabags dangling in the ferment.

Just sayin...

2c.


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## Dazza_devil (24/12/10)

According to the .pdf from the Briess webpage, their carapils can be steeped or mashed and is devoid of enzymes.
The weyermann site suggests their carapils use to range 5-10% but can be used up to 40% of the grain bill, so perhaps it wont have a ruining effect. Briess on the other hand suggest 1-5% will achieve the desired result.


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## kelbygreen (24/12/10)

I am not suggesting anything I am just giving info from what I have seen on the net. I have never used carapils in this amount so can only go off what is said or suggested on other sites of coarse it all depends on the brand and state of the grain as well. I have not noticed much of a difference in 200g of carapils in my brews ether in taste, colour or head retention but I dont note little things really just happy to make good beer


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## Aces High (24/12/10)

damn, I thought there would be a nice easy answer to this, but it appears not.

Thanks for all the responses. i reckon I will just see what happens, maybe try some adding some extra hops

I'll let ya know


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## Hatchy (24/12/10)

The easy answer is to leave it & see how it goes. It is a fair bit of carapils though.

Have you had a taste from the fermenter? If it tastes terrible you could boil a shedload of hops & chuck in more extract & turn it into an IPA. Personally I'd leave it & chalk it up to experience unless it's tasting really vile out of the fermenter. 

What's the SG at the moment & how long has it been in the fermenter?


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## dth (24/12/10)

kelbygreen said:


> how could adding dextrose bring FG down unless its like 120% fermentable  it will thin the beer out but the FG will be higher if you add dextrose just the alcohol content will be higher. You could as you say add a little dex and more hops to balance it out but you say 1045 OG with 1.2kg of LDME and a can thats about right without the carapils so Id say go for it maybe add 200g dex at most but from my thought carapils is a dextrine malt?? and mainly adds to head retention? could be wrong but.
> 
> Have a read of this says increses mouth feel and body without adding flavour or colour. READ!



If it is brewed out fully, dextrose will indeed decrease the FG. Dextrose is fully fermentable and alcohol has a much lower gravity than water or malt/beer. The alcohol content will of course be higher but to balance the residual sweetness this may be a good thing.

On the other hand, 1kg of CaraPils is an awful lot in a single batch. A touch of hops would probably help here.

Dan


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## Pennywise (24/12/10)

If you have another fermenter you could make up another batch of the same beer, without the CaraPils, and dump the two together. I wouldn't consider 500g to over the top.


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## scott_penno (24/12/10)

+1 for Pennywise's suggestion. 

I'd try it first though and if it does come across as being sweet or full-bodied and you consider these traits to be undesirable, brew up another batch and blend them.

sap.


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## schooey (24/12/10)

You know what? I reckon it'll be fine...

You have a can and a kilo and a bit of malt extract as well as the carapils. In AG equivalent that's probably 5 odd kilos of grain so your carapils addition is maybe 25%. Weyermann say in their guidelines 5-10% _up to 40%_...

It may be a little sweeter than you wanted, but it'll be well drinkable


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## manticle (24/12/10)

manticle said:


> so you won't get starches *or unfermentables.*



Slight correction - I was referring to starch conversion/diastatic power etc but you will get dextrins to give body - the point of adding such a grain. The dextrins are unfermentable and will give more body


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## Dazza_devil (24/12/10)

kelbygreen said:


> it will thin the beer out but the FG will be higher if you add dextrose just the alcohol content will be higher




I want a scientific explanation for this.


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## Aces High (24/12/10)

schooey said:


> You know what? I reckon it'll be fine...
> 
> You have a can and a kilo and a bit of malt extract as well as the carapils. In AG equivalent that's probably 5 odd kilos of grain so your carapils addition is maybe 25%. Weyermann say in their guidelines 5-10% _up to 40%_...
> 
> It may be a little sweeter than you wanted, but it'll be well drinkable



So the 40g of Saaz I have already added wont balance up the sweetness? I bought a 50g bag, so I still have an extra 10g. When would be the best time to add it?


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## Hatchy (24/12/10)

10g of hops won't make much of a difference. What does it taste like?


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## Aces High (24/12/10)

Hatchy said:


> 10g of hops won't make much of a difference. What does it taste like?



Haven't actually tasted it. Its only been fermenting since wedneday, so it'll probably still be petty sweet anyway. 

Its all going into a keg, so at least I dont have to waste time bottling it. I'll just run it and see


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## manticle (24/12/10)

I'd rather drink it than tip it and if it's too thick/sweet, I think the blending idea is the best


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## Aces High (24/12/10)

I just tasted some of the wort. Its down to about 1020 and tastes pretty good. Doesn't taste overly sweet and you can still taste some bitterness from the hops. I reckon it might end up ok

There was a bit of a head on the sample which took a while to go down. It might end up being freaking foamy


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## Dazza_devil (24/12/10)

Is it going into bottles or keg?


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## kbe (24/12/10)

Aces High said:


> Its all going into a keg, so at least I dont have to waste time bottling it. I'll just run it and see





Boagsy said:


> Is it going into bottles or keg?


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## Dazza_devil (24/12/10)

He might of changed his mind since it may be worthwhile bottling after all.
I'll try to be more diligent in future anyway, just for the hell of it.


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## goomboogo (25/12/10)

I agree with those who have said allow it to ferment, drink it and learn from the outcome. After the gravity sample, it sounds like it's going to be acceptable. You are going to end up with a F.G higher than what had been planned so keep this in mind when taking your samples prior to kegging.

You are not the only person to do such a thing. Many have done worse. I was told a story by a brewer that makes your carapils use seem light handed. He had never mashed before and wanted to brew a pilsner. He went to the LHBS for advice on mashing and to purchase the ingredients for the pilsner. The owner of the LHBS sent him away somewhat confused about the mashing process and 4.5kg of carapils. This was the only grain supplied and he was told to use the 4.5kg to make the 20ish litres of beer. The choice of carapils as a base malt for a pilsner was seemingly based on the fact that it was the only grain he had in stock that had pils in the name. Obviously, the beer wasn't really beer at all and the brewer thought he had not followed the directions correctly. He was eventually made aware of the erroneous information he was given at the LHBS and chose never to go back.


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## bradmcm (25/12/10)

I wouldn't get fussed about it. The beer you get may not be what you originally intended to brew, but it will still be drinkable.
The Durden Park Beer Circle's book _Old English Beers and How to Brew Them_ often uses a 50/50 mix of pale malt and carapils to emulate 18th and 19th century grain quality.


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## hotchilli (3/7/11)

Aces High said:


> damn, I thought there would be a nice easy answer to this, but it appears not.
> 
> Thanks for all the responses. i reckon I will just see what happens, maybe try some adding some extra hops
> 
> I'll let ya know



sorry to resurrect an old thread, but ........ how did it turn out?


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## Bribie G (3/7/11)

In Wellington last year at the Weyermann masterclass, the guy says that Carapils can be used up to 30 to 40% of the grain bill to produce lower alcohol beers and that is actually what they sell Carapils for to the commercial breweries in the UK, Europe and the USA. That raised a few eyebrows. I bet it turned out fine.


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## Deebo (3/7/11)

Is there a way you could use a dry enzyme to start breaking down unfermentables but then stop it when you got to the desired body / FG ?


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## Aces High (3/7/11)

yeah this one turned out fine. A little low in ABV as the SG stopped a bit higher than it should of, but not too much. Tasted fine though


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