# Off Flavour in last 3 kits



## jaypes (2/2/13)

Hi All

The last 3 kits i have brewed all seem to have the same off flavour. Not exactly sure what it is but it definately tastes like crap homebrew

The first 2 kits (both coopers creveza) i changed the sugars, fermenter and yeast. The last one was a black rock ipa with LME and Us05. 

They all have the off flavour

The only thing that is common to all is;

Soaking bottles and fermenter in PSR, and rinsed thoroughly
Phosphoric Acid solution for sanitising
Filling fermenter with water from the garden hose

I am buggered what it might be?


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## Kiwimike (2/2/13)

Is your fermenter properly sealed? I had a problem recently with the seal having perished so air got in. That gives an off sort of flavour.


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## jaypes (2/2/13)

Yes properly sealed. One of the fermenters i used was brand new


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## bum (2/2/13)

Failing any sort of description of the flavour on which to base any guesses...


jaypes said:


> Filling fermenter with water from the garden hose


If this is new to your process then it could easily be the culprit. Water out of a garden hose generally tastes like a garden hose - especially on sunny days.


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## slash22000 (2/2/13)

Unfiltered water would also most likely contain of some level of chlorine which is not something you want to be tasting in beer.


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## Black Devil Dog (2/2/13)

Garden hose would be the first thing I'd get rid of. Have a drink out of the hose and see how it tastes. It's not a flavour you would want in your beer.


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## jaypes (2/2/13)

The hose water does not really have a "hose" taste but i will try filtered water in the next one

I cant really describe the flavour kind of a metallic/twang/solvent. My palate is not that refined to pick it clearly

Might get my LHBS to sample it


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## Nick JD (2/2/13)

jaypes said:


> I cant really describe the flavour kind of a metallic/twang/solvent.


What's the use by date on the cans of goop?


What temperature are you fermenting at?


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## jaypes (2/2/13)

Cans all in date by ages

Fermenting at 18 degrees in my fridge (stc1000)


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## slash22000 (2/2/13)

Metallic / solvent are fairly dissimilar tastes. "Metallic" could probably be explained by running your water through a garden hose. "Solvent" though ... you mean, like nail polish? It could be the chlorine in the unfiltered water.


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## hoppy2B (2/2/13)

I don't envy you. I use rain water for all my beer and I boil the whole lot when making kits. I add lots of hops and I am unable to taste anything but hops.


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## carniebrew (3/2/13)

jaypes said:


> Hi All
> 
> The last 3 kits i have brewed all seem to have the same off flavour. Not exactly sure what it is but it definately tastes like crap homebrew


Jaypes,

Correct me please if I'm not reading this right...but are you saying your last 3 brews have an off flavour...meaning you've done some brews before that, that tasted ok? Or is this your first ever 3 brews?


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## jaypes (3/2/13)

Ive done 4 kits to date. 3 of them have this off flavour. The very first one turned out great surprisingly


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## craigo (3/2/13)

jaypes said:


> Ive done 4 kits to date. 3 of them have this off flavour. The very first one turned out great surprisingly


id say its kit twang best, thing you can do if you are using kits is get the freshest you can get.


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## Nick JD (3/2/13)

Perhaps check out extract brewing with a small hop boil. Twang is in the can.


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## bcp (3/2/13)

jaypes said:


> The hose water does not really have a "hose" taste but i will try filtered water in the next one
> 
> I cant really describe the flavour kind of a metallic/twang/solvent. My palate is not that refined to pick it clearly
> 
> Might get my LHBS to sample it


Drinking from most garden hoses (PVC) puts you at risk of a nice dose of lead. If you want to use a hose, just make sure it's a food grade plastic.


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## carniebrew (3/2/13)

jaypes said:


> Ive done 4 kits to date. 3 of them have this off flavour. The very first one turned out great surprisingly


So is there anything fundamentally different between brew 1 and the next three?


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## Ivonavich (3/2/13)

Temp Control?


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## citizensnips (5/2/13)

He said he uses stc 1000 so temp control isn't a problem. I'd say is the downside to brewing with cans, I went straight to biab and never looked back, as others have said have a look into extract and maybe steer away from k&k


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## Oakers (5/2/13)

Yep. Get ye to BIAB. I reckon some people are more sensitive to kit twang. Maybe give an all extract brew a go first. But almost as easy to do a stove top BIAB.


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## pfitz (5/2/13)

If the first one was good and the next three not so good, was the gear all new for the first one?

Maybe an issue with cleaning and sanitising practices that need a tune up.

Just another thought.

I agree with the others, BIAB is much better than kits and REALLY easy.


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## kahlerisms (5/2/13)

I've tried to take the hose discussion over here


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## Ivonavich (5/2/13)

eddy22 said:


> He said he uses stc 1000 so temp control isn't a problem.


My bad I must of missed it in reading.....


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## jyo (5/2/13)

I know the garden hose discussion has been moved elsewhere but as others have suggested, I would be pointing at this as being the cause. When doing kits I filled the fermenter using the garden hose *once* and the resulting beer was disgustingly hosey. Tipped the keg and never tried it again.


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## hoppy2B (5/2/13)

I'm not a fan of US05 yeast to be honest. Did you use a different yeast the first time and then get put onto 05 by the people on here. I suggest using a different yeast and see how that goes along with adding some hops maybe. 
I've used SN9 yeast with good results.


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## goomboogo (5/2/13)

hoppy2B said:


> I've used SN9 yeast with good results.


What if he doesn't want to use a yeast best suited to wine and cider?


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## bum (5/2/13)

The sentence before that is uncharacteristically good advice though.


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## hoppy2B (5/2/13)

goomboogo said:


> What if he doesn't want to use a yeast best suited to wine and cider?


Based on your logic 05 would be better suited to beer production than SN9, but I prefer SN9. What's life without adventure?


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## stakka82 (8/2/13)

Fitz said:


> If the first one was good and the next three not so good, was the gear all new for the first one?
> 
> Maybe an issue with cleaning and sanitising practices that need a tune up.
> 
> ...


Yeah I would go with this especially if the gear was new for the first one.


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## felten (8/2/13)

:icon_offtopic: Most wine yeasts can't actually ferment the maltotriose sugar which is present in wort in a fairly large proportion.

I'd stick with the beer yeast.


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## JakeSm (11/2/13)

if temperature control is not the issue, then i would lean more towards the sanitisation processes used. if all kits had this twang/metallic taste then people would not buy them at all. maybe there is something being used in your brewing that hasnt been cleaned properly after your first brew.
the usual culprit for this is the tap and tap seal in the fermenter. make sure it gets cleaned really well before starting. as well as everything else, obviously!


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## hsb (11/2/13)

My guess is that it doesn't relate to unsanitary problems (seems less likely to be consistent over three separate brews to me) but to process/ingredients. With a description like 'crap homebrew' I'm going to take a punt on a 'crap homebrew' process.  If that's the water (try a pint from the hose - does it have the same taste?), or underpitching, or from too much sanitiser in the brew, or just sugar/kit twang - first brew is never a good comparison since it'll always be the 'best' on one level and you didn't have a baseline to compare from.

Did you taste it all the way through from brewday to bottling? When did the twang appear?


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## jaypes (11/2/13)

My sanitation is pretty good, I soak everything in PSR overnight before a thorough rinse with the hose then douse it all in diluted phosphoric acid (country brewer sanitiser)

I almost use 500ml of sanitiser on every brew, spraying everything that comes into contact with the wort.

I tasted it out of the fermenter and it seemed pretty good (no real twang)

It sort of tastes like solvent when you first take a swig then you get the beer flavour


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## jaypes (11/2/13)

I have got all the kit for a 35-40L batch of AG

I might brew one using the same methods - hose water, sanitiser and see if it tastes the same


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## hoppy2B (11/2/13)

I recommend you boil the whole quantity of water. I have never had a off flavour since doing this and used to get them all the time hitherto.


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## jaypes (11/2/13)

Boil the whole quantity for a kit?


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## itguy1953 (11/2/13)

What temp did you pitch yeast at?

Pitching at high temp while ST1000 and fridge reduce temp to 18degc can cause yeast to throw solvents and phenols. This used to happen to me. Now I pitch ales at 16-17 degc and hold for 24 hours, then allow to increase to 18degc. 

Also low wort oxygenation can cause off flavours.


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## jaypes (11/2/13)

I pitched at around 22 degrees and had the stc set at 18 degrees - I suppose it would have taken an hour or so to drop from 22-18. I wouldnt have thought yeast would work that quick and throw that amount of solvent/phenol

Wort oxygenation - well i dont think i have a problem there, there is approx 3 inches of foam on top once I am done shaking the f#cker


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## GuyQLD (11/2/13)

We have no established baseline and there's been so many changes that it's hard to pin point any one thing. 

Surprisingly enough the usual culprits here (temp control, sanitising) seem to be under control, or at least the OP seems to be on top of it.

You don't have to boil the whole quantity if all you're worried about is chlorine in your water supply, leaving it to stand for 24 hours will do that for you and be far less mucking around trying to get back down to temp. I also suggest that you go back and brew that first kit again - whatever you did that time seemed to work and you have some of the big ticket items down pat. 

Try and reproduce that brew exactly, if you didn't use the hose, don't use the hose. If the brew comes out just as good or almost as good you know it's not your original process, but one of the things you've changed. 

Given that the only consistent change I can see if your water supply (the dreaded hose, oh noes) and I would consider that the rest of your changes to be fairly low risk I'd take a gamble that that is your culprit. 

You could even try the original kit with the hose - if it has the same problem it supports it being your problem; personally I think this is fraught with a touch of danger... it might be something else all together and this might end up being a false positive.

Personally, I'd try to copy brew 1 exactly the same and see if I got the expected outcome - that'll rule out most of the other variables (since you've pretty much covered all the basics) and you can move ahead from there knowing it isn't something small and hard to diagnose. 

The devils advocate in me wants to know if all the kits were the same manufacturer, but that's more for interest sake than anything.


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## itguy1953 (11/2/13)

jaypes said:


> I pitched at around 22 degrees and had the stc set at 18 degrees - I suppose it would have taken an hour or so to drop from 22-18. I wouldnt have thought yeast would work that quick and throw that amount of solvent/phenol
> 
> Wort oxygenation - well i dont think i have a problem there, there is approx 3 inches of foam on top once I am done shaking the f#cker


I think that you will find that it will take around 6 hours to drop the wort temp from 22 to 18. Enough time for yeast to create phenols. This is exactly the problem I had in my beers before I started to reduce temp to 17 first and then pitch. No more phenols except in my Belgians.


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## jyo (11/2/13)

jaypes said:


> I have got all the kit for a 35-40L batch of AG
> 
> I might brew one using the same methods - hose water, sanitiser and see if it tastes the same


Can I suggest taking the garden hose out of the experiment altogether, mate? It makes shit beer, trust me.

I know you used it in your first batch, but the no-rinse sanitiser you are using- does it leave a strong residual smell? Are you sure you're mixing to the right ratio?
I know it's not the same brand but I bought some kegking no-rinse sanitiser (during The Great Starsan Drought) and I refuse to use it. The odour it leaves in bottles and fermenters is strong enough for me to worry about it carrying over into the beer. 

Cheers.


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## jaypes (11/2/13)

jyo said:


> Can I suggest taking the garden hose out of the experiment altogether, mate? It makes shit beer, trust me.
> 
> I know you used it in your first batch, but the no-rinse sanitiser you are using- does it leave a strong residual smell? Are you sure you're mixing to the right ratio?
> I know it's not the same brand but I bought some kegking no-rinse sanitiser (during The Great Starsan Drought) and I refuse to use it. The odour it leaves in bottles and fermenters is strong enough for me to worry about it carrying over into the beer.
> ...


The no rinse sanitiser does not have a strong smell - mixing it with a syringe as per the label instructions


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## slash22000 (11/2/13)

There's only a limited number of things that produce off-flavours in beer:

*Temperature / yeast health - Check*
*Sanitisation / general practice - Check*
*Old extract cans - Check*
*Water quality - Unknown*
It seems to me like your water is your only unknown at this point. Do you have a water report for your area? It might not even be the hose, it might be that your water where you live is just generally shitty for brewing. Not likely but possible. The hose certainly wouldn't help.

Have you tried changing the brand of extract you're using? Have you been using the same extract constantly?


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## manticle (11/2/13)

Various vinyl tubing has imparted bad flavours to beer made by brewers I know so add equipment to your list slash.
Also some of the best/most experienced brewers I know have been subject to wild yeast/brewhouse infections despite great sanitation regimes. Got a spate myself for a while. Loads of variables out there.


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## slash22000 (11/2/13)

I was including "Using a garden hose" under water quality, but you're right it might deserve its own bullet point.


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## pk.sax (11/2/13)

Just for fun, sanitise with bleach next time. It's good to shock treat your equipment with something different every now and then.


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## jaypes (15/2/13)

Got my LHBS to taste it today, he couldn't quite pick what the off-flavour was but he guarantees me that the hose is probably the culprit as everything else in the process is textbook

Cheers for all the replies, the only reason I use a hose is that my garden tap is about 15cms off the ground and inside there is only the laundry tap (which I only have a 2L container to fill) which makes filling ~20L a bit time consuming.

Anyway off to purchase a 5L food grade jug from somewhere tomorrow


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## Black Devil Dog (15/2/13)

You should be able to buy a short length of clear PVC hose from Bunnings to use instead of the garden hose.

Just measure the outside diameter of your tap fitting. PVC hose comes in sizes from 4mm to at least 35mm, I reckon you'll be better off using that than a bucket.

edit: Mabye even use the laundry tap, I run PVC tube from mine when I'm filling with water and napisan, sit the f.v on the floor.


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## jaypes (15/2/13)

I did have a look at those, unfortunately it was not stated (or could any employee) tell me if it was food grade. If its not food grade then its pretty much the same scenario with the garden hose.


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## jaypes (19/3/13)

Just an update on this thread (if anyone is still watching)

Have eliminated the garden hose and used a 5L plastic Jug to fill the fermenter.

The off flavour has completely gone, which is weird since I can drink from the garden hose and notice no off flavour or odour (not going to anymore since this happened)

Beware the dreaded garden hose - it should be only used for cleaning up, hosing the plants and kids on a hot day and putting out fires


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## slash22000 (19/3/13)

Hallelujah.


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## kyby (19/3/13)

I only use rainwater but whenever I use a coopers kits I get the home brew twang, The only coopers I have made that taste half decent are the canadian blonde with extra hops and malt and the English bitter with extra malt and hops.
If you are using the coopers yeat under the lid I would set the temp to 21deg.
I would try and do an extract brew from scratch. the difference in taste is cheese and chalk.


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