# Article on Over-Hopped Craftbeer



## Nick JD (17/5/13)

Interesting read.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/drink/2013/05/hoppy_beer_is_awful_or_at_least_its_bitterness_is_ruining_craft_beer_s_reputation.single.html


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## doon (17/5/13)

Link isnt working from my mobile


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## Nick JD (17/5/13)

Try using a computer.


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## Bribie G (17/5/13)

Had a quick read and yes I'd agree. In my case I like malty beers with hop accents, sometimes very complex hop notes that hit you one after the other such as in Wells Bombardier or TTL, and I'd love to try them fresh off the cask.
But they wouldn't be described as particularly bitter.

When it comes to "craft beer", I don't like a lot of the Australian offerings because all I can taste is Cascade or Amarillo. Or something. Oh for some rich caramelly grainy malt. Fat Yak is to me the best balanced "craft style" beer out there, and I really enjoy 150 lashes - light, refreshing and a nice background of hops, especially if you let it warm up a bit. When I do the pokies every few weeks I get two schooners, plonk them next to Indian Dreaming and let them sit for a few minutes.

The most disappointing beers I was looking forward to were Sunshine Coast Bitter at the Platform Bar. I was looking forward to a taste of old Blighty and all I got was another APA, and Stone and Wood main brew (forget the name) which was cheesy and way over bittered.

In the Euro Beers I love those fresh-bread and toast malts in Central and East European brews such as Zwiec or Kozel with just that glorious aroma when you pop the lid, and the soft hoppy finish.

What I don't like is - flame suit on - just about every American brewed APA I've ever drunk out of the bottle. I tried my first SNPA last year and it tasted exactly like a case swap beer. By "case swap beer" I mean that - in all my case swap experiences - two out of three beers are highly hopped APAs because that's what most of the guys seem to brew as soon as they get into AG brewing, discover those hop things, and when you open the bottle, there's yet another one that tastes exactly like the previous one because your buds and nose have been hopped into submission and they all taste the same after a while.

Unless it's a RIS I rarely hop over 35 IBU myself.

Many on the forum will have different tastes of course, this is just my experience. But in the context of the article, it's no bloody wonder they are finding it hard to wow the VB drinkers and you'd have to say that the major successes in weaning the drinkers onto ales and more complex beers has come from JS and Coopers, and to a lesser extent LC and Matilda Bay Fat Yak, whose offerings don't fry your tonsils with every sip.

Edit: I'm also on some curry forums and exploring Indian Food. There are some parallels there - a tendency amongst beginners to hide faults behind a shitload of chilli or other spices rather than exploring more subtle options. The thing about many (not all) craft breweries is that if they were brewing Indian food rather than brewing beer, it would be Vindaloo Vindaloo and here comes another Vindaloo. More Korma or mild Madras would be welcome as well.


<end rant>


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## sponge (17/5/13)

I will agree that when I first started brewing, my goal was to make APA's, with a couple of other styles thrown in here and there.

I just loved the aroma and flavour of the american hops and couldn't get enough.

In the last 6 months I have found myself brewing a lot more EPA's and milds due to their malt complexity with some more subtle herbal/earthy hop flavour instead. I find them a lot more sessionable than their american counterparts and my mates have also commented on them as well, preferring them to APA/AIPA's for the same reasons.

I still brew a couple of APA's when I have some 1272 on hand, but mostly that will be me doing single malt and/or single hop beers just to learn individual flavours rather than brewing them because they're my favourite style. I have found myself backing off on the hops though, leaning towards subtlety rather than masking all other flavours.

In saying all of that though, every so often I really do crave a nice hoppy A(I)PA..

Horses for courses.


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## tricache (17/5/13)

Good find Nick!! (and yes the site automatically goes to the mobile version and screws the link if you are on a phone or mobile device)

A good read and totally agree, I think everyone remembers there first Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and how much of a smack in the face it was! 

I went on a bit of a "hop bender" as such a while back and Burleigh Brewing's FIGJAM was (and still is) a big favourite. I wanted to share this new found passion of hoppy beers with a friend who I knew to be a big beer lover (he lived in Belgium for about 12 months) but he said he couldn't even finish a glass of FIGJAM and said it was too hoppy for him. I was gob smacked but since then I have kind of found myself in a bit of a sour beer spree which I don't think will go over any better with my mate :lol:


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## JDW81 (17/5/13)

Interesting read.

From the out I must declare I am a big fan of american pale ales and IPAs (both american and British).

However, I have noticed recently that there seems to be somewhat of a pissing competition between breweries to see who can make the hoppiest beer, often to the detriment of the overall beer quality. In many cases the lashings of hops aren't balanced by appropriate malt character. I see it as breweries using hops to cover up poor brewing techniques. 

With this focus on hops what seems to be often forgotten are the real heroes of brewing, yeast and malt. IMHO it is these two ingredients that make or break a beer, and if handled poorly can ruin a beer in no time. 

Hops are important, but not the be all and end all, especially not at the expense of basic brewing practices. You can paint a shit house with awesome paint, but underneath it is still a shit house. 

I will continue to drink APAs, IPAs, but I will drink them amongst lowly hopped hefes, lagers (yes I drink lager, get over it), milds etc.

JD


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## Phoney (17/5/13)

I can see where they're coming from and in many instances I agree, it's unbelievable how mainstream IPA's are in the US. They sell them at ordinary hamburger diners. No complaints from me of course, but I know those kinds of beers arent for everyone.

Though I don't think we have this problem in Australia. IPA's are still rare as hens teeth comparably speaking.


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## black_labb (17/5/13)

Hoppy beers have their place and I enjoy them, but there is much more worth drinking that isn't done by craft brewers and should be given more consideration. There are a lot more flavours worth exploring.

I think part of it is that hop dominated beers are pretty easy to brew. Add some fruity hops to a fairly standard malt base and ferment on a clean yeast. You can do it any number of ways and still get something good. Start playing around with getting certain flavours from yeasts, or even getting the right flavour in your malts is more difficult, and what for? APA's sell. There is a lot of people new to craft beer and they are what they expect from it. I've tasted a lot of underwhelming craft beers, especially as I've improved my brewing.

I brew some english and american IPAs', but most everything else is quite heavy on the malt, which is what I like for most beers.


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## slash22000 (17/5/13)

I don't really see the point of this article. If you don't like hoppy/bitter beers, don't drink them? I've never found a Belgian beer I've enjoyed, but I don't cry about Belgian styles ruining the craft beer industry. I just don't drink them.

Yeah, pale ales and IPA's are popular. Lots of people enjoy them. Breweries wouldn't be getting rich off hoppy beers otherwise. Some US breweries seem to brew mega-hopped beers almost exclusively and they're thriving.

So what is this guy on about? :wacko:


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## tricache (17/5/13)

slash22000 said:


> I don't really see the point of this article. If you don't like hoppy/bitter beers, don't drink them? I've never found a Belgian beer I've enjoyed, but I don't cry about Belgian styles ruining the craft beer industry. I just don't drink them.
> 
> Yeah, pale ales and IPA's are popular. Lots of people enjoy them. Breweries wouldn't be getting rich off hoppy beers otherwise. Some US breweries seem to brew mega-hopped beers almost exclusively and they're thriving.
> 
> So what is this guy on about? :wacko:


Girl actually


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## black_labb (17/5/13)

slash22000 said:


> I don't really see the point of this article. If you don't like hoppy/bitter beers, don't drink them? I've never found a Belgian beer I've enjoyed, but I don't cry about Belgian styles ruining the craft beer industry. I just don't drink them.
> 
> Yeah, pale ales and IPA's are popular. Lots of people enjoy them. Breweries wouldn't be getting rich off hoppy beers otherwise. Some US breweries seem to brew mega-hopped beers almost exclusively and they're thriving.
> 
> So what is this guy on about? :wacko:


The point is that craft beer seems to be almost exclusively hoppy beers. It is pretty common feature of craft beers in Australia too.


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## mckenry (17/5/13)

Exactly. Too much hops. Hey, has anyone tried these cleanskin premiums from Korea? Really cheap, all natural, no preservatives.... Didnt catch the name... h34r:


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## Florian (17/5/13)

_"While the resulting liquid, called wort, is boiling, brewers add hops to tone down the mixture’s sweetness—without hops, beer would taste like Coke."_

How cool is that, I didn't know that!
Think I'll brew myself a big double batch of coke on the weekend and get all me mates over with a bottle of Rum.


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## slash22000 (17/5/13)

black_labb said:


> The point is that craft beer seems to be almost exclusively hoppy beers. It is pretty common feature of craft beers in Australia too.


Is that true though? I mean, looking over the selection from Australian microbreweries, I see pale ales pop up quite often, but IPA's are rare. I would not say bitter hoppy beers are "common" from Australian microbreweries.

Feral Brewing do a number of hoppy beers but they're not very bitter. Little Creatures has their pale ale, not bitter. Holgate have a pale ale but it's only 26 IBU, their IPA hits 65 so that's a nice bitter brew. Moo Brew have a pale ale, not very bitter. Mountain Goat do a number of IPA's, so I guess they are guilty.

Dunno. The problem isn't as serious as people seem to think.


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## bum (17/5/13)

"The craft beer industry's love affair with hops is alienating people who don't like bitter brews"

Niche market holds no interest for the mainstream. You don't say? There's only one way to make something "new" mainstream and it isn't changing the mainstream.


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## JDW81 (17/5/13)

slash22000 said:


> Dunno. The problem isn't as serious as people seem to think.


I don't think anyone is suggesting it is a problem, just merely passing their observations and opinions. You love your hoppy beers and hate belgians and there is nothing wrong with that. I enjoy hoppy beers, but am partial to belgian ales, lagers, british ales, wheats etc, etc. 

Each to their own really.


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## manticle (17/5/13)

> I don't really see the point of this article.


Maybe this person's regular job is to write opinion based articles about beer?


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## Bribie G (17/5/13)

Yup, Roger Protz would be out of a job if he didn't express his opinions on many aspects of the licenced trade.


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## jezza79 (17/5/13)

i went hop crazy when i first began brewing....at the moment i am settling for english ales with the occasional galaxy passion fruit fiesta thrown in to keep the females happy.


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## treefiddy (17/5/13)

mckenry said:


> Exactly. Too much hops. Hey, has anyone tried these cleanskin premiums from Korea? Really cheap, all natural, no preservatives.... Didnt catch the name... h34r:


Pretty sure it was cleanface premium.

There are a lot of hoppy beers out there, but JS amber ale seems quite popular in pubs you wouldn't quite expect.

The number of hoppy beers is not unreasonable though considering hops is a primary ingredient in beer and that there are so many varieties and combinations to be tried.


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## stakka82 (17/5/13)

I'm a victim of 'lupulin threshold shift' like many others here.

When I started brewing I couldn't enjoy anything above 35 IBU. Fast forward to a few weeks ago, I'm drinking SN Hoptimum and savouring every drop. 

I didn't even really notice it happening, but atm I have a lager at about 35 IBU with Motueka on tap (60 min and small 15 min addition). I find it a real session beer and almost indistinguishable from any other rather bland german pils type lager. My brother, who's a mega swill drinker, was around last week and I thought it would be right up his alley. He liked it, but he thought it 'tasted like little creatures' and found it almost overwhelming. I can barely detect the hop presence!


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## black_labb (17/5/13)

slash22000 said:


> Is that true though? I mean, looking over the selection from Australian microbreweries, I see pale ales pop up quite often, but IPA's are rare. I would not say bitter hoppy beers are "common" from Australian microbreweries.
> 
> Feral Brewing do a number of hoppy beers but they're not very bitter. Little Creatures has their pale ale, not bitter. Holgate have a pale ale but it's only 26 IBU, their IPA hits 65 so that's a nice bitter brew. Moo Brew have a pale ale, not very bitter. Mountain Goat do a number of IPA's, so I guess they are guilty.
> 
> Dunno. The problem isn't as serious as people seem to think.


You've just listed a bunch of hop forward beers in trying to argue that there are plenty of malt forward beers available, my point exactly. Can you list craft beers that showcases the malt over the hops?

I don't think it is a problem as such and things will work themselves out once the craft beer market plateaus and people start looking to differentiate themselves.


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## tanukibrewer (17/5/13)

> Exactly. Too much hops. Hey, has anyone tried these cleanskin premiums from Korea? Really cheap, all natural, no preservatives.... Didnt catch the name... h34r:


 If its as good as what some people say Im gonna give up brewing and throw all my all grain equipment away.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm the blandness is overpowering!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## tanukibrewer (17/5/13)

Yeah right


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## pk.sax (17/5/13)

It's quite simple really. Hops are more expensive per kilo than malt. If brewers tried to compete with established good beer producers (lets count German brewers here for the main part and then everyone else in the ballpark), they'd only shoot themselves in the foot. Making that style of beer popular amongst beer nerds will lead to competition where the craft brewers don't really want it. Why would any sensible business create a demand for someone else's product!? The big 2 in oz can easily lift their game and drown the crafties out with malt forward beers at lower cost than they'd have to spend to drown out hoppy fruity beers. Cases in point are the current JS and Matilda Bay ranges. Even they aren't stupid enough to push those too hard, it will turn their higher (guess) margin megaswill drinkers.
I can't quite find nice fruity hoppy beers cheap enough, which means if a new brewery prices their beer up at the price levels everyone here currently does, I'd not make a fuss about it. Have them try and sell me a big helga or something at price/L higher than German helles imports and I'm gonna whinge about it. The point of difference required for craft brews is almost mandatory, IMO.


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## GrumpyPaul (17/5/13)

Why has no one noticed the side bar story


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## bum (17/5/13)

black_labb said:


> You've just listed a bunch of hop forward beers in trying to argue that there are plenty of malt forward beers available, my point exactly. Can you list craft beers that showcases the malt over the hops?


Really? Almost every local brewery I've tried have at least two UK styles. Malty US Browns are fairly popular too.


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## tricache (17/5/13)

GrumpyPaul said:


> Why has no one noticed the side bar story


"It was like seeing a great white whale breaching alongside dolphins."

I just sprayed beer all over the computer screen reading that...god damn...:lol:


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## Nick JD (17/5/13)

I think the purpose of the article is to point out that in the US, the craft brewing industry is awash with IPAs to the detriment of other great-tasting styles and to the tastebuds of those who don't like hop dominated beer.

We might have one advantage to our sad craft industry here: that micros aren't obsessed with the IPA. I went to a brewery in Richmond, Washington and I'm pretty sure they used 1056 in every beer they made.


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## tricache (17/5/13)

Nick JD said:


> I think the purpose of the article is to point out that in the US, the craft brewing industry is awash with IPAs to the detriment of other great-tasting styles and to the tastebuds of those who don't like hop dominated beer.


Which I totally agree with, you look at most larger craft beer companies in the US and their big stand out/show case beer is usually something crazy hoppy (SN Pale or Torpedo and DFH 60min, 90min or 120min IPA are a couple of examples) 

I would love to see a big craft beer market in Europe since a lot of commercial european beers (generally speaking) don't have that smack in the head hop characteristic and take on a lot more of the malt and yeast flavours.


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## 1974Alby (17/5/13)

An interesting read until the last sentence. At that point it lost all credibility.

_"Who Knows, maybe we'll finally win over some of those Bud Light Fans"_

DILLIGAF :chug:


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## bradmccoy (17/5/13)

Bribie G said:


> Fat Yak is to me the best balanced "craft style" beer out there,


No way. I reckon Fat Yak is awful. Insipid dry hop kind of flavours and no malt backbone.

I saw this article earlier today and thought it was stupid. Anyone who thinks "craft beer" has been overrun by hops doesn't drink enough beer. I visited Portland earlier this year and while North-West America does do a LOT of IPAs and other hop-heavy beers, there is plenty else out there like some really decent stouts.


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## Nick JD (17/5/13)

At a recent Boston craftbeer festival 25% (156 out of 633) beers was an IPA.

How many styles are there in the BJCP guide...?


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## bum (17/5/13)

75% leaves no room for other styles?


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## Nick JD (17/5/13)

One in four, bum.

Not really no.


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## bum (17/5/13)

The premise is that these overly bitter beers are mis-representing craft beer.

1 in 4 doesn't have the chance to mis-represent anything. 1 in 4 is a minority.


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## Nick JD (17/5/13)

Do Aussie Lagers represent Australian beer?


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## bum (17/5/13)

Does your rhetorical question have anything to do with anything?


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## Nick JD (17/5/13)

Yes.


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## Damien13 (17/5/13)

HA!


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## Online Brewing Supplies (17/5/13)

Nick JD said:


> Yes.


Yes and No is the correct answer !


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## bum (17/5/13)

Nick JD said:


> Yes.


Sorry, that was my fault. The question was vague. I really wanted to know if it had anything to do with anything relevant.


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## edschache (17/5/13)

worst of all are the mad brewers driving around with "hop head" number plates h34r: .... mmmmm Cunning Ninja.....


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## Spiesy (17/5/13)

First up, good article, good read. I agree.

Secondly,


Bribie G said:


> Fat Yak is to me the best balanced "craft style" beer out there, and I really enjoy 150 lashes - light, refreshing and a nice background of hops, especially if you let it warm up a bit. When I do the pokies every few weeks I get two schooners, plonk them next to Indian Dreaming and let them sit for a few minutes.


Fat Yak and 150 Lashes as good beer and playing pokies = sad times, in my humble opinion.


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## Spiesy (17/5/13)

JDW81 said:


> You can paint a shit house with awesome paint, but underneath it is still a shit house.


Nice.


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## stakka82 (17/5/13)

I think what's missing here is a bit of perspective.

The US is the birthplace of the APA and AIPA. Expecting there not to be an abundance of hop based beers there is a bit like being surprised by phenolic beers in belgium, lagers in germany, or a ridiculous abundance of pilsners in the Czech republic.

Great beer countries have their own styles and beer 'culture' which revolves around heavy use of certain ingredients or processes. The US is no different. Their contribution to world beer is the exploration of the 'fruity' hop, neutral yeast, and sky high bitterness.


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## bum (17/5/13)

stakka82 said:


> I think what's missing here is a bit of perspective.


I agree completely but my experience does not back your conclusions up at all.

I go to the States pretty much every year. Whilst there I try my best to stick to beers I've never had and take notes for all. When I got home from my last trip I was surprised to notice that of the ~75 new beers in my little black book maybe 10 were AIPAs, even fewer APAs. The craft brew market there is ridiculously diverse and anyone who wants to paint it as all C-hops probably has no first hand-experience of it at all.


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## Nick JD (17/5/13)

stakka82 said:


> I think what's missing here is a bit of perspective.
> 
> The US is the birthplace of the APA and AIPA. Expecting there not to be an abundance of hop based beers there is a bit like being surprised by phenolic beers in belgium, lagers in germany, or a ridiculous abundance of pilsners in the Czech republic.
> 
> Great beer countries have their own styles and beer 'culture' which revolves around heavy use of certain ingredients or processes. The US is no different. Their contribution to world beer is the exploration of the 'fruity' hop, neutral yeast, and sky high bitterness.


Except US beer styles haven't been around for centuries (a couple of decades) and the market is still emerging. There's is currently a backlash about the IPA (especially the IPA cold war going on between a lot of micros there) where some quite undrinkable shit is being produced.

It's not only that IPAs are over-represented in US craft beer, but that the said IPAs (DIPAs especially) are being developed by people out of touch with their target market ... the people who do not yet drink craft beer but are considering it.


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## Spiesy (17/5/13)

bum said:


> The premise is that these overly bitter beers are mis-representing craft beer.
> 
> 1 in 4 doesn't have the chance to mis-represent anything. 1 in 4 is a minority.


Not really. If the other 3/4 are different styles - it's certainly not a minority, there would be a myriad of other styles not even represented.


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## bum (17/5/13)

DIPAs are gateway beers now?

**** me drunk.


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## bum (17/5/13)

Spiesy said:


> Not really. If the other 3/4 are different styles - it's certainly not a minority, there would be a myriad of other styles not even represented.


The suggestion isn't that it is simply strongly represented. The suggestion is that these beers are possibly turning customers away. There is more variety in the US craft scene than ANYWHERE else in the world. Anyone suggesting otherwise is dumb as.


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## Nick JD (17/5/13)

bum said:


> DIPAs are gateway beers now?
> 
> **** me drunk.


Obtuse much?

These breweries are producing extreme niche beers when they could be brewing something (not an IIPA) that will increase their market share by luring in Bud drinkers. Instead they are presenting them with beer that makes them think, "craft beer is not for me. Each time I try it it's too bitter."

Also, it's not possible to get drunk by *******.


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## bum (17/5/13)

You're suggesting breweries only make one beer and I'm being obtuse.

I fucken hate your computer.


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## Spiesy (17/5/13)

bum said:


> The suggestion isn't that it is simply strongly represented. The suggestion is that these beers are possibly turning customers away. There is more variety in the US craft scene than ANYWHERE else in the world. Anyone suggesting otherwise is dumb as.


Are you referencing Nick JD, or the article?

Because when Nick JD said that 25% of beers at the Boston beer whatever where IPA's, you called that a minority.

It's not. 

It's a pretty strong representation.


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## bum (17/5/13)

Nick at the end.

Yes. I read it.

[EDIT: adding new stuff after your edit]

I am fairly sure that there is no way to mathematically prove 25% is a majority.

I have stated that it is a highly represented style.

There is no way 25% smothers a market.

No way.


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## Bribie G (17/5/13)

Spiesy said:


> First up, good article, good read. I agree.
> 
> Secondly,
> 
> Fat Yak and 150 Lashes as good beer and playing pokies = sad times, in my humble opinion.


I enjoy playing the pokies and I do like those two beers. They are quite well made. I expect you waste a lot of your short life on useless pursuits as well like watching footy. Are you an inspector for the Nanny State or something?


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## tazman1967 (17/5/13)

When I first started AG, hops. hops and more hops... couldnt get enough of them. Now my taste buds, have shifted to malt driven beers. I brewed my first English Mild this week.
I love my Belgians and have now "discovered" sour beers.. Yummm.. :icon_drool2: . 
Its all part of the journey, your tastes in beer evolve.
I shouldnt have read " Radical Brewing"," "Brew Like A Monk " , " Wheat ", or Farmhouse Ales, h34r: . All these books have expanded have increased my thirst for more of the beer palate.
PS. I still do a hoppy beer once and a while to get a hop fix.


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## Nick JD (17/5/13)

bum said:


> You're suggesting breweries only make one beer and I'm being obtuse.
> 
> I fucken hate your computer.


No I'm suggesting that one beer style out of 71 representing 25% of all beers at a big craft beer festival indicates a disturbance in the force.

A good indicationof this disturbance is the oxymoronic Black IPA. They're IPA obsessed, and it's affecting the "Craft Beer" 'brand' to those unfamiliar with it.


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## Spiesy (17/5/13)

Bribie G said:


> I enjoy playing the pokies and I do like those two beers. They are quite well made. I expect you waste a lot of your short life on useless pursuits as well like watching footy. Are you an inspector for the Nanny State or something?


Settle, pettle... all is well. I had hoped my emoticon conveyed the dig at you.

And yes, I love footy, but only when my Tigers are playing.

Relevance?


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## Bribie G (17/5/13)

Like my Yorkshire Grandma would say "takes all sorts to make a world"


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## bum (17/5/13)

Nick JD said:


> No I'm suggesting that one beer style out of 71 representing 25% of all beers at a big craft beer festival indicates a disturbance in the force.
> 
> A good indicationof this disturbance is the oxymoronic Black IPA. They're IPA obsessed, and it's affecting the "Craft Beer" 'brand' to those unfamiliar with it.


Yes, BIPA is the worst shit ever. Easy.

And, yes, I doubt anyone could dispute that they are heavily represented at such events but how does 25% constitute a significant enough figure to exclude anyone from the market? It just doesn't make sense. There's plenty of beer for everyone.

Furthermore, I'm not sure comparing 25% against 71 styles is all that convincing anyway. You think it is appropriate that there should be the same number of IPAs as, say, gruits? I'm sure gruit isn't style on its own but I'm equally sure you see my point.


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## Nick JD (17/5/13)

bum said:


> I'm equally sure you see my point.


Now you mention it - actually, you're completely right. I don't know what came over me. Maybe it was because when I went to look for some fast food just before, 25% of the places I saw sold burgers. And were American.


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## bum (17/5/13)

I was referring to you following my point on the gruit thing rather than thinking that I'd somehow managed to sway your opinion.

Naive of me, I guess.


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## tanukibrewer (17/5/13)

I usually find a beer within most of the styles that I have tried that I like.Pale ales,IPA,DIPA,english ales,stouts Imperial and dry,porter,German pils,smoked,ales and lagers,Belgian strongs pale and dark,double,triples and trappist,I havent tried a lot of styles such as Belgian krieks,sour beers and saisons but I guess I would find one of each or more that I like.
The very hoppy beers are extreme in flavour and I like them too and extreme is easily marketable.Marketable means that after typing this I will drink a 500ml bottle of Hop Zombie that cost me $16 from a local bottle shop where most of the brews cost about the same as bottle of cheap wine.Just as lots of people with passion for beer are thriving in the craftbrewing boom so too are the copycats who are just in it for the money.The current extreme hopped IPA,DIPA,BIPA etc craze will fade and the brewers pushing the boundaries will move onto something else and only the really good versions of these will remain.Anyway, rant over off for a few beers


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## slash22000 (17/5/13)

Am I the only one who tries something more than once? Damn.

Lots of comments in this thread like "IPA's will destroy the beer world because Bud Light drinkers don't like them". I found a few beers I didn't like when I first started drinking craft beer instead of Tooheys etc ... so I tried some other ones instead. :chug:


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## manticle (17/5/13)

Who said that?


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## bum (17/5/13)

manticle said:


> Who said that?


(Without looking) I suspect he means comment on the original article.

But article comments are populated only by trolls, so whatevs.


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## manticle (17/5/13)

He referred to 'this thread' so I assumed that's what he was talking about.


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## bum (17/5/13)

Yah, I know. Not unreasonable on your part.

NT, you know?


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## slash22000 (17/5/13)

I was obviously exaggerating, but am I the only one reading the "Breweries should be making beers marketed towards mega-beer drinkers" comments? All I'm saying is, if a mega-beer drinker doesn't like an IPA, it's not as though they're going to abandon the entire craft beer world forever.

**** you lot are sensitive this week.


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## Nick JD (17/5/13)

slash22000 said:


> ... if a* VB* drinker doesn't like an IPA, it's not as though they're going to abandon the entire craft beer world forever.


FIFY.


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## manticle (17/5/13)

slash22000 said:


> I was obviously exaggerating, but am I the only one reading the "Breweries should be making beers marketed towards mega-beer drinkers" comments? All I'm saying is, if a mega-beer drinker doesn't like an IPA, it's not as though they're going to abandon the entire craft beer world forever.
> 
> **** you lot are sensitive this week.


Of course I'm sensitive.

I sniff my beer before drinking it for ****'s sake.


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## Byran (17/5/13)

Im interested that so many people would actually care what some chick wrote about craft beer trends.............
I thought girls only like fashion.


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## bum (17/5/13)

To be fair, she is talking about fashionable beers...


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## anthonyUK (17/5/13)

Perhaps craft brewers make hoppy beers because there is a gap in the commercial market and if loads of hops mean an overly bitter beer then someone is doing something wrong.
I do see a lot of American recipes though with half a dozen malts and a hop bill that would be suitable for a number of batches not just one.


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## bum (17/5/13)

It isn't for everyone but a complex grist can balance a complex hopping schedule - really hard to get right though. Never been able to nail it completely myself but I have had many US examples that have done.


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## slash22000 (17/5/13)

People (article in question included) say that adding shitloads of hops is some kind of attempt to hide a bad beer, but I think it's pretty obvious when you're drinking a bad IPA (for example) compared to a truly good IPA.


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## dago001 (17/5/13)

Byran said:


> Im interested that so many people would actually care what some chick wrote about craft beer trends.............
> I thought girls only like fashion.


In a family of 5 beer drinkers, I am the only male. I wont buy into this way of thinking at all. My biggest beer critics are of the female variety, and to try to say that women are not beer drinkers is wrong. While beer has been predominantly a male drink, many more females are enjoying a beer these days. In saying this, they generally dont like overly bitter beers, but are quite receptive to hop aroma.
My opinion is very similar to bribieG. I enjoy a malt driven style much more than an IPA. In fact, after 3 years of AG brewing, I have brewed only 1 IPA. And cant see myself changing that in the near future. I enjoy a pale ale but any more than 30ish IBU will pull me up.
I do kind of feel that it is easier to hide flaws by adding hops. IMHO - learn how to brew, refine you system and techniques. Add hoppy beers later.
No offense intended to the IPA lovers, it's just for not me or my family.
Cheers
LagerBomb


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## bum (18/5/13)

LagerBomb said:


> My biggest beer critics are of the female variety


My SWMBO (most SWMBOs, genetically) has a much more...detailed?...palate than mine (dudes, generally). She often helps me put into words what it is that I like about a beer (while she complains about it).



LagerBomb said:


> I enjoy a pale ale but any more than 30ish IBU will pull me up.
> 
> I do kind of feel that it is easier to hide flaws by adding hops.


Yeah, at 30 IBU this is totally true. But it is really not true at +60 IBU. It is _much_ harder to nail that balance than people here usually wish to suggest (not at all directly aimed at your post alone, LagerBomb).


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## dago001 (18/5/13)

Kind of agree here bum, although its my 18 yo daughter who tests all my new beers for me. But my biggest critics are still females who arent family members. I think it is important to get non beer drinkers to try something different. After all, without stereotyping, most female beer drinkers are more Corona/TED type drinkers. Im lucky I guess, my girls like craft beer and can tell the difference. Anyhoo, the genereal reference was stating that females (chicks/girls) are only into fashion is a little "old".
I think the biggest untapped market for craft beer in Australia is the female market.
As for a beer at 60IBU - cant really comment on that, as I have only tried a few. But I am sure that it is the same as brewing a lager - you need good techniques to get it right every time. I should brew one soon to try it again.
Cheers
LagerBomb (sitting here enjoying a "Black Sheeps Imperial Russian Stout"


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## pcmfisher (18/5/13)

I suppose the craft breweries _could_ turn out only 15ibu tasteless lagers to attract mega swill drinkers.

That would be exciting now, wouldn't it?


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## manticle (18/5/13)

@pcmfisher:

So on the one hand there's tasteless, presumably pale, low hopped lagers and on the other there is DIPA?

The point of the article, whether or not you agree is not that at all. Doppelbock, ESB, saison, biere de garde, Dubbel, Tripel, weizen, porter, wee heavy, pumpkin ale, kriek, Kolsch, alt* etc, ad nauseuam are not often/usually hop driven beers and are a far cry from your proffered commercial alternative. there are so many others. Where the author falls down a little, as bum points out is that breweries ARE brewing many of these styles. Homebrewers are often the worst when it comes to the whole 'needs more hops' phenomenon. 

Personally I think some breweries and more to the point craft consumers can sometimes get stuck in that mindset of the more hopped the better or more IBU = good but I do see a lot of alternatives out there and only more arriving.

Even considering a couple of relatively easily obtainable US breweries we see here: Sierra have a porter and keller for example, Ballast point has a porter, the list continues. I think there is/has been a focus on hops to a degree but that is slowly changing.

Hops are just an easily distinguishable flavour that people can easily pick. There is a world of beer out there - some craft, some traditional/historical

*Some alts are highly bittered and some late hopped but as a style, it is is a long way from imperial aipas.

Please, please, please will people stop presuming all lagers are bland megaswill. There are some great pale lagers out there and some superb dark ones that have as much flavour as any ale you'd care to name. Get a Salvator intoya


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## JDW81 (18/5/13)

manticle said:


> Please, please, please will people stop presuming all lagers are bland megaswill. There are some great pale lagers out there and some superb dark ones that have as much flavour as any ale you'd care to name. Get a Salvator intoya


Bravo Manticle.

I have long been a fan of a well brewed, low hopped lager and am often frustrated by the fact that lager is automatically acquainted with VB/New/XXXX etc.


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## dago001 (18/5/13)

I suppose that one of the things we as homebrewers on this site see a lot of, is talk about hops, IPA's and hop related issues. And when there are reviews of a new brewery or beer, the beer that everyone talks about predominantly is an IPA. Nothing wrong with that, but I feel (this is my opinion only) a lot of this comes down to peer pressure.
Hardly any reviews of a Lager/Dark Lager Kolsch, etc appear on this site. When a review of something not bitter or hoppy is posted, the naysayers jump on board and bag the beer as bland etc. Post a review about a Lager and you better have your flame suit on.
I agree with bum as well about many breweries having varied styles, but they rarely get a mention on here, but somebody releases a new hopped up IPA style and everyone is on it.
Maybe we have a new subcategory of the Beer Snob - The IPA Snob.
One of our local brewers who went commercial a few years ago, has 3 brews. A stout, an English Bitter and an Irish Red. Smart move, as he could see that an IPA would be hard to sell on a commercial scale here in Tassie (although I have taken this at face value, he has never actually said this to me, only implied).
The bulk of the populace does not like overly bitter beer.
Cheers
Lagebomb


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## warra48 (18/5/13)

In my 6 years of brewing AG I have brewed about 6 or so batches of AIPA. In my view, I've only ever really nailed it once to get it right with great balance between malt and hops. It's not an easy style, and a beer that just tastes of hops and nothing else is not a pleasure to drink.

I do like APA as a style, and will continue to brew them, but only up to about 40 or so IBU's. Any more than that, and they tend to go out of balance.

On the other hand, I also love malt forward and malt complex beers. One of my current favourites is a Brown Porter, with great malt complexity, and only about 27 IBU from a single 60 minute addition; it's a beautiful beer.

I continue to try to nail a great Hefeweizen. I've brewed at least a dozen or so batches, but only nailed it only once to the level I'm looking for. And they only have an IBU up to about 20 maximum.

For me, variety is what it's all about, but no matter what I brew, a balanced brew is very important to make it a really enjoyable drink.

I agree with Bribie G and his observations as to what he likes in a beer. To me, the best beer on tap at my golf club is JS 150 lashes. It has enough malt to interest me, and subtle hop flavour with just enough bitterness dancing on the finish. I'll bet trying to emulate that in a homebrew is difficult.

Really, there must be only a very small niche market for ridiculously hopped beers where you taste nothing but hops, and your taste buds are beaten into submission for the next week. I think that may be the point of the original article?


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## Nick JD (18/5/13)

9 out of 10 VB drinkers don't know it's a lager they're drinking.

In order to develop a healthy craftbrewing industry, said industry needs to consider its evolving market much more carefully than most are doing or the industry will remain niche.

I dream of a time where 50% of beer drinkers are familiar with 50% of beer styles. Imagine what the shelves of liquorland would look like?


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## manticle (18/5/13)

I dream of making love to multiple beautiful women.

I also sometimes dream of being at school with no pants on, losing all my teeth and occasionally spiders coming out of the walls and trying to bite me.


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## Nick JD (18/5/13)

manticle said:


> I dream of making love to multiple beautiful women.


It's overrated.


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## KingKong (18/5/13)

Nick JD said:


> It's overrated.


Said no man.. ever.


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## wbosher (18/5/13)

manticle said:


> I also sometimes dream of...<snip>... losing all my teeth....


Me too. It's a bloody terrifying dream.


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## warra48 (18/5/13)

Last night I dreamed my wife ran her blue BMW into my maroon convertible Bentley.
T'was very sad, until I woke.

Alright, so that's OT, but I've already posted a substantive response in this thread.


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## black_labb (18/5/13)

I guess a big part of the problem is also the availability. Many breweries try to do a bit more with maltier styles but they are often unavailable in pubs and bottleshops in favour of the hoppier variety. I know some non brewer beer nerds that love to talk about hops, but know nothing else about the beer. It's kind of like ordering a meal based on the sauce on it, the sauce being the hops. They're the people buying the craft beers around.




manticle said:


> @pcmfisher:
> 
> So on the one hand there's tasteless, presumably pale, low hopped lagers and on the other there is DIPA?
> 
> ...



It would be nice to have more good lagers brewed locally, but I don't see it being particularly feasable due to the energy costs of cold fermenting and lagering in much of the country. The higher ferment temp of ales is better suited to the climate here, and the quick turnaround is another plus.

I would love to see them becoming more available, but it's not very likely for a brewery to see the need for it.


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## pcmfisher (20/5/13)

manticle said:


> @pcmfisher:
> 
> So on the one hand there's tasteless, presumably pale, low hopped lagers and on the other there is DIPA?
> 
> ...



Yes I know there are non hop driven beers. I also know there are breweries that do make this style.

As you pointed out, neither a Saison nor an IPA taste anything like mega swill beer I have tasted.

I was not saying all lagers are bland mega swill. 

What I meant was why would a small brewery produce a beer that tastes like Bud Light to attract Bud Light drinkers?

They probably could but why would they? 

Roll on the beers with taste, be it hops or malt.


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## manticle (20/5/13)

I think it would be remarkably silly to try and make bud lite. I thought the point of the article was not to make bud but make beer bud drinkers will enjoy. Not sure I think that is the best way to approach making good beer myself but there you go.


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## dago001 (20/5/13)

Nobody was insinuating that craft breweries should brew light lagers. The article was implying that big hoppy beers won't "convert" bud lite drinkers over to craft beer, which I personally agree with.
If they did brew a bud lite style and attracted a huge amount of drinkers, maybe craft beers would come down in price (clutches for a packet of straws).
Anyway, after all the discussion here, i have today brewed my second on IPA. Its been a while since the last one (2 years or so), so who knows, maybe I will be a convert.
Cheers
LagerBomb


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## BeerNess (20/5/13)

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/05/lazy-beer-writers-are-ruining-craft.html is quite a well written argument against some of the points in that article... 



> Yesterday morning, I began skimming The Social Medias over coffee when an article titled "Against Hoppy Beers - Hops Enthusiasts Are Ruining Craft Beer for the Rest of Us" appeared on my Twitter doorstep like so much flaming poop in a paper bag. I knew it was going to be trollbait when I saw that headline, but the bait was too strong. I read it. And as I did, my blood pressure rose, the sarcastic quips and exasperated rebuttals soon piling up in my mind.
> 
> Normally, I just forget about this sort of click-bait "journalism" after a few minutes. The article — by Adrienne So, appearing on Slate.com — was intended to get people's attention, to get people talking, and it succeeded at that. Here I am, hours later, taking the time to write out this rebuttal. But this particular article bugged me more than most of the sloppy beer journalism that's sloughed off by big mainstream publications, who typically assign wine writers to elaborate on beer styles they don't even enjoy. Maybe these lazy articles are just building up over time — a crust of stale, uniformed laments. But in this case, from an author who says that she likes hoppy beers herself, it's not just the laziness or ignorance of brewing techniques that bothers me: it's the missed opportunities. Where there was an chance to open dialogue about why people like what they like, Adrienne So's Slate piece instead enters a bizarre, misguided blame game. It starts right there in the title:_ Hops Enthusiasts Are Ruining Craft Beer for the Rest of Us_. And so the message seems to be: You should feel bad for liking what you like so much, because not everyone likes it_. _Sadly, this is the common thread with many of these articles. Rather than admit their tastes are simply different from others, writers too often try to cast their preferences as some fault of the thing they don't enjoy. If only IPAs tasted more like fermented grapes...
> 
> ...


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## tricache (20/5/13)

BeerNess said:


> http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/05/lazy-beer-writers-are-ruining-craft.html is quite a well written argument against some of the points in that article...


Love it!!! What a reply!


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## jlm (20/5/13)

LagerBomb said:


> i have today brewed my second on IPA. Its been a while since the last one (2 years or so), so who knows, maybe I will be a convert.
> Cheers
> LagerBomb


Gasp!!!! You've changed man.


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## Adr_0 (20/5/13)

Cool, both good articles. The last couple of paragraphs of the Bear-Flavoured article were spot on: why not use a publication as a chance to educate people or provide a solution?

I do definitely think that the Seppos are hop crazy. That's ok, and that same drive has created some great innovations of the years... but I don't like this whole "English Mild... AMERICAN style" thing they have going. Even the BJCP guidelines on some of these (English, for e.g.) beers seem to be Americanised, i.e. push the hop profile more. The "black" India "Pale??" ale is another example of this.

Like most things in life, there is tension or disappointment when expectations are out of whack. If a Bud/VB drinker is expecting a light lager when they sip that IIPA they are in for a world of hurt. But, the person who pours that frosty one (mmm, Fosters) needs to throw a massive disclaimer in there, give some background, what to expect, etc. They may change their mind before they ask for it. Or they may go "Geez, that's full on, do you have anything else?" Expectations getting closer to being aligned = greater chance for happiness.


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## dago001 (20/5/13)

jlm said:


> Gasp!!!! You've changed man.


No,change here. 1 IPA every 2 years is a pretty good average. Might bring it up in July to get rid of it give you all a sample.  .
Cheers LagerBomb

Edited for clarification


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## Lord Raja Goomba I (20/5/13)

Anyone who has seen more than 2 of my posts over these years will know I like my hoppy with American style beers.

My name is Goomba and I have lupulin threshold shift (Hey Goomba....).

I brew a lot of APA/AIPA (probably about 50% of all beers I produce). And I'll be brutally honest, part of that is not only am I unimaginative and like American hopped beers, but I brew according to my circumstances/family (4 kids, etc) and these are easy to knock out, and extremely forgiving, because even an average APA has enough hops to hide a number of flaws behind. 

But I do like lots of beer styles. Ironically, I won awards for non-IPA styles as well. I have a barleywine that I'm procrastinating bottling (by writing this post). If I had time, I'd take on more challenges brewing wise (my Rauchroggenweiss being an example of this)

I think that some have touched on it, and I'll restate it. If you went out and brewed 'lager like' beers - something a mainstream drinker could drink, you'd be goneskies. We've all seen Arvo, Broo and the like and most of us have gone "why?".

IPA are a primary differentiation point of craft beer at this point. Oh, and Saisons. Red IPA seems to be the current 'it' beer. They give an easy reference point for non-beer nerds to say "oh, that tastes like craft beer".

These style of beers do often give a non-beer drinker a point where they say "oh, I didn't know beer could taste like that", but for a megaswill style drinker - not always. Having said that, I have a former carlton draught drinking mate in Brissie, who won't buy anything less than fat yak now. So some megaswill drinkers do appreciate new flavour.

Counter that argument is craft brewers could alienate these drinkers. As a result, they may say "well, if that's craft beer, then no thanks", and so a possible future Dortmunder drinker or Oud Bruin drinker - may never get on the bandwagon, because 'craft' = '50IBU+ fruit salad beer'.

I have no answer, there's an argument to be had either way.

On a slightly OT but not much point, I've tried most Tassie "Pale Ale" style beers (Morrison's excepted) - Iron House, Moo Brew, Van Dieman's etc. To be honest, most are a bit bland. I gave my missus (Vale:IPA lover) an Iron House "American" Pale, which espouses their use of citrus hops, and she had one mouthful and went "nup, hate it. Why didn't you buy Vale?". She's had Moo and v.Dieman's Pales and doesn't mind them, but goes back to Vale:IPA. The former beers could possibly turn off possible future converts who do like hops (but don't yet know it), because they go "why am I paying $20 a sixer for this??".

I think the only argument I have given any weight to is that women are the biggest untapped beer market.

Pontificate on.....


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## Adr_0 (20/5/13)

Lord Raja Goomba I said:


> On a slightly OT but not much point, I've tried most Tassie "Pale Ale" style beers (Morrison's excepted) - Iron House, Moo Brew, Van Dieman's etc. To be honest, most are a bit bland. I gave my missus (Vale:IPA lover) an Iron House "American" Pale, which espouses their use of citrus hops, and she had one mouthful and went "nup, hate it. Why didn't you buy Vale?". She's had Moo and v.Dieman's Pales and doesn't mind them, but goes back to Vale:IPA. The former beers could possibly turn off possible future converts who do like hops (but don't yet know it), because they go "why am I paying $20 a sixer for this??".
> 
> I think the only argument I have given any weight to is that women are the biggest untapped beer market.
> 
> Pontificate on.....


Meanwhile, my missus has paid $20 for 4 or 6 of these and unconvincingly demanded they are good. Nothing at all to do with visiting the MONA, thinking it's cool that they brew beer and wine and then being more than happy forking over for a beer meant to target a market of drinkers whose eyebrows are somewhere near the ceiling and walk around saying "Oh I do say..." with very ROUND vOOOwels indEEd.

I guess my point is that she probably knows she doesn't like it but is afraid to admit it because of how much we've paid. Unlucky. She is a big fan of most Pale ales though, LCPA of course - obviously North West-inspired - and, at the opposite end of the spectrum, Coopers. I shrug my shoulders. I know she doesn't like malty beers at least.


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## good4whatAlesU (28/7/16)

Went to Stone and Wood yesterday to try a tasting paddle.. All over hopped to my taste, even the black. Not a decent session beer in the lot.


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## mstrelan (28/7/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> Went to Stone and Wood yesterday to try a tasting paddle.. All over hopped to my taste, even the black. Not a decent session beer in the lot.


The best session beers are extra hoppy


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## good4whatAlesU (28/7/16)

I disagree, if I wanted to pucker every time i tasted something I'd eat a bucket of lemons. It would be cheaper.

But each to their own flavour.


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## Coodgee (28/7/16)

holy resurrection batman. I currently have my hoppiest ever beer on tap. It's a 68 IBU beer with 395 grams of hops for a single keg batch. 200g of that is dry hops. Mainly because I ordered over 2 kilos of hops so why not!? It's pretty extreme but it tastes and smells nice.I think it represents the peak of the cycle for me in terms of hoppy beers. My next two beers will be lagers - one a Helles that will probably be a 15IBU beer with about 20 grams of hops. Contrast is what keeps things interesting; a few hoppy beers then a few lagers or wheat beers or a porter. or better still one of each at the same time!


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## GalBrew (28/7/16)

good4whatAlesU said:


> Went to Stone and Wood yesterday to try a tasting paddle.. All over hopped to my taste, even the black. Not a decent session beer in the lot.



Good God man, if you struggle with Stone and Wood (whose whole mantra is 'balance') then you are obviously not a fan of the hop in any way shape or form.


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## good4whatAlesU (28/7/16)

On the contrary, I enjoy Monteiths "Pale Ale" quite a lot.

I employ a few different hops in my own beers. 

I just don't like Stone and Woods beers, sorry but that's my opinion.

They sure do sell a lot of beer, so many disagree with me but that's fine. Each to their own taste.


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## Coodgee (28/7/16)

I wouldn't call Monteiths pale ale an example of a hoppy beer


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## GalBrew (28/7/16)

Coodgee said:


> I wouldn't call Monteiths pale ale an example of a hoppy beer


Nor would I. I actually wouldn't call Stone & Wood particularly hoppy either. There is a nice balance and they are very drinkable, but hardly a hop bomb.


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## good4whatAlesU (28/7/16)

I wouldn't call Monteiths PA a hoppy beer either, it's well balanced. That's why I like it.


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## Bribie G (28/7/16)

Having drunk Stone and Wood Pacific ale a few times at several widely dispersed locations in NSW and SEQ, I'd class it as a lazily made cranked-out beer attempting to hide behind hops. The examples I've had on tap have been consistent: pale in an anaemic way, cloudy, no malt presence, now let's bring on some hop so we can claim to be a craft brewer.


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## good4whatAlesU (28/7/16)

It's my local brewery so I'd like it to be good. I've bought S&W beers, I've been given S&W beers, I've tried them at the cellar door... I've Tried to like them..... and tried again... 
They just don't taste very good. 
Best of luck to those who like it though, to business is sure making a lot of money on the hipster banwagon.


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## mstrelan (28/7/16)

It's probably galaxy hops you don't like which can make beer taste like Pasito, evident in S&W Pacific Ale.


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## Hpal (28/7/16)

I got into brewing after an eye-opening trip to Germany, where the best brewers in the universe are. All I wanted to do was make an awesome Pilsner, and I can make a pretty good one, but they do it better. I keep my beers not so bitter or highly hopped unless its an IPA or APA. Delicate and subtle is nice.


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## good4whatAlesU (29/7/16)

Even S&W seasonal black is over hopped I reckon.


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## Bribie G (29/7/16)

WRT the Galaxy, when there was a shortage last year I had an opportunity to stock up in a bulk buy and bought 250 of pellets and 250 flowers. Then at the Grafton Comp HPA kindly sent along a heap of 100g samples and we all took home Galaxy or two, plus I still had a heap in the fridge from just before the shortage warning.......eeek. 

So a couple of weeks ago I did a big smash with BB and 100% Galaxy and I love it - will be my house beer until the Galaxy gets down to manageable. So my dislike of S&W is clearly something else. Basically it boils down to their beers tasting like something brewed by your mate who has just got into AG... hey taste this. '
Wow that's not too bad for a first effort.

But $7 a schooner I think not. Anyway this isn't a S&W bashing thread, just one example of craft brewers perhaps getting stuck in a rut. As an example, considering the massive Pommy retired and expat population on the Gold Coast and the East coast generally, I'd bet that a brewery doing a proper UK Bitter even if on nitro like their smooth flow, and distributed to pubs who were willing to put it through a nitro tap, would have the poms flocking.


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## Coodgee (29/7/16)

S&w are making a fortune with pacific ale. It's hugely popular. On tap everywhere. I'm sure it's no accident. It's a beer designed for a mass market segment and they are executing perfectly.


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## Bribie G (29/7/16)

Fair point if you compare it with 150 Lashes. 
A couple of times recently I've seen guys in hi vis gear and Mongrel boots carrying slabs of lashes out to utes so the pale ale trend seems to be getting into VB heartland.


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## Randai (29/7/16)

Bribie G said:


> Fair point if you compare it with 150 Lashes.
> A couple of times recently I've seen guys in hi vis gear and Mongrel boots carrying slabs of lashes out to utes so the pale ale trend seems to be getting into VB heartland.


I think the pale ale trend is definitely stealing the share from VB/Tooheys/Crown, my old man has been a Crownie drinker for 20+ years and he even goes for the Lashes now.


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## wide eyed and legless (29/7/16)

What a pity we are not all cloned, then we could all enjoy the same beer and food and with all in complete agreement


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## Coodgee (29/7/16)

my first foray into craft beer was James Squire IPA. Man that beer was hoppy to me at the time. Then I got into little creatures... but I remember secretly thinking "christ that's some bitter shit". I think I was only drinking it to be cool. Now LC tastes so tame.


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## Bribie G (29/7/16)

Palate creep

When I was 25 years old and a backpacker I would sit on the shores of the Med in Turkey getting hammered on Efes Pilsen and couldn't believe the richness of the malt, the floral hops, the general beer trippyness of this nectar.





In Istanbul I would gaze in wonder at the Blue Mosque from my hotel room with a reassuring supply of Efes to hand, savouring every beautiful drop




For most of my adult life I've craved to taste this beer again before I die.

Last year Dan's got in a shipment.

Meh


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## LAGERFRENZY (29/7/16)

As an example, considering the massive Pommy retired and expat population on the Gold Coast and the East coast generally, I'd bet that a brewery doing a proper UK Bitter even if on nitro like their smooth flow, and distributed to pubs who were willing to put it through a nitro tap, would have the poms flocking.[/quote]

Washing down some proper bacon, Lardy Cakes and a Gert Big Blackbird Pie


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## Dave70 (29/7/16)

From thew article.

So here’s my plea to my fellow craft beer enthusiasts: Give it a rest. Let’s talk about the differences between wild and cultivated lab yeast, and the weird and wonderful flavors that are created when brewers start scouring nearby trees or flowers or even their own beards for new strains. 







Yeah, fuk that. I'll stick with an IPA thanks..


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## good4whatAlesU (29/7/16)

Raw onions might work - it could be called "Abbotts Bitter"


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## GABBA110360 (29/7/16)

Bribie G said:


> Palate creep
> 
> When I was 25 years old and a backpacker I would sit on the shores of the Med in Turkey getting hammered on Efes Pilsen and couldn't believe the richness of the malt, the floral hops, the general beer trippyness of this nectar.
> 
> ...


and now your one of us old bastards that live in nsw and drink almost anything as long as it has bubbles and alcohol in any quantity !
hello bribie in downtown kyogle


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## Bribie G (29/7/16)

Yeah greetings from skid row, with a view


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## fletcher (29/7/16)

Dave70 said:


> From thew article.
> 
> So here’s my plea to my fellow craft beer enthusiasts: Give it a rest. Let’s talk about the differences between wild and cultivated lab yeast, and the weird and wonderful flavors that are created when brewers start scouring nearby trees or flowers or even their own beards for new strains.
> 
> ...


i've had it. tastes belgian but is just an...'eh' beer. i'll go back to my ipas also.


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## good4whatAlesU (1/8/16)

Bribie G said:


> Palate creep
> 
> When I was 25 years old and a backpacker I would sit on the shores of the Med in Turkey getting hammered on Efes Pilsen and couldn't believe the richness of the malt, the floral hops, the general beer trippyness of this nectar.
> 
> ...


Yep, the older we get, the less taste buds we have.

I once got hooked on those sour worm lollies. For months after i lost the appreciation of the humble raspberry jube.


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