# How long would you give a lager yeast to kick off?



## Dave70 (7/5/14)

Made the starter last Saturday and pitched Sunday - Wyeast 2278 - at 10 deg.
As of this morning, still not a sign of activity. Not a bubble.
Just making me a little anxious as we're in the sweet spot for infection.


----------



## Black n Tan (7/5/14)

I prefer to use 2278 at 12C. At 10C you are at the bottom end of its working range. That said I normally see activity within 48 hours. I would increase the temp to 12C.


----------



## Weizguy (7/5/14)

Big starter? Was it active, or allowed to relax for more than a couple of days? What size starter and what size batch of beer?

As you would well know, bubbles do not a fermentation make, especially if relying on an airlock.

Can you peer into the fermentor to see if there are signs?

Did you crash chill after pitching, or pitch below the temp that the yeast was sitting at?

My rule of thumb is: Patience is king with your lager brewing. (Hey that rhymes, if you use the right inflection).
I plan to brew with the W2278 again soon. It's a great yeast and the flavours, the FLAVOURS...


----------



## Dave70 (7/5/14)

Les the Weizguy said:


> Big starter? Was it active, or allowed to relax for more than a couple of days? What size starter and what size batch of beer?
> 
> *2 L starter - 25L of wort.*
> 
> ...


----------



## Dave70 (7/5/14)

Black n Tan said:


> I prefer to use 2278 at 12C. At 10C you are at the bottom end of its working range. That said I normally see activity within 48 hours. I would increase the temp to 12C.


Shall do.


----------



## Black n Tan (7/5/14)

Hey Dave did you stir your starter? Did you oxygenate or aerate your wort?


----------



## Dave70 (7/5/14)

Black n Tan said:


> Hey Dave did you stir your starter? Did you oxygenate or aerate your wort?


I shake the starter (no stir plate yet), and oxygenate the wort with an air stone. 
All the same, should make no difference as to whether the yeast fires or not.


----------



## Screwtop (7/5/14)

You would need 2 packs of yeast for even a smallish lager and should be aiming for a starter volume of 4L. Yeast cells do not like cold temps, lager yeast strains have been selected due to them being able to work at low temps without dropping off to sleep like other strains. Low temps using lager strains produce crisp clean fermentation, good if you are a mega lager producer as less malt and hops are required to add flavour/character to the beer with such clean fermentation. As lager yeast cells will do the job but are not happy at low temps, we need to give them every possible chance at survival by using a high pitching rate, nice big active starter and oxygenated wort. 

Screwy


----------



## Weizguy (7/5/14)

I would usually make at least a 3 litre starter for a 25 litre batch of wort. Maybe a drop of olive oil and yeast nutrient in the starter if not currently using it.

Flashback to Sept 2005. I note that it took a few days to kick off at 10°C , but was sooo worth it!

I think I still have that same culture of W2278.

Les


----------



## Black n Tan (7/5/14)

Dave70 said:


> I shake the starter (no stir plate yet), and oxygenate the wort with an air stone.
> All the same, should make no difference as to whether the yeast fires or not.


It can make a difference to the lag phase. I think a 2L starter with intermittent shaking is not giving you enough yeast and consequently the lag phase is extended. A stir plate really helps for making big healthy lager starters.


----------



## TheWiggman (7/5/14)

The more I read of this sort of stuff the more I'm realising a stir plate is almost necessary for a lager.

Dave, I recently did my first lager at 13°C in 23l of wort. I stepped up to 2l in 3 steps and I regularly stirred by hand. It kicked off after 24h but took 3 weeks to finish, including temp raising. I'm guessing when yours gets going it'll probably take a long time to finish as well.

I'm going to invest in a stir plate before I do my next lager. Join my team. Beat impatience.


----------



## mje1980 (7/5/14)

Did you chill the yeast starter to pitching temp as well as the cube?.


----------



## Dave70 (7/5/14)

mje1980 said:


> Did you chill the yeast starter to pitching temp as well as the cube?.



No.
No I didn't...

Wort was at 10, but the starter would have been more like 17 or there about. 

Oops..


----------



## mje1980 (7/5/14)

Probably shocked the yeast. I make a big starter ( 3-4 litres of dependant ) then when it's done, whack it in the ferm fridge with the cube overnight. Then when I pitch, both starter and cube are at same temp. Done this the last few lagers, and they have been my best lagers by far. 

It will more than likely turn out fine mate.


----------



## mje1980 (7/5/14)

With cold pitching, I find it does take 24 hours before you see any activity, but at such cold temps ( I pitch around 7c then let come up to 10 ) any bad bugs are slower to act, and you have a heap of good beer yeast ready to party like its 1.999


----------



## Dave70 (7/5/14)

I realy am a larger noob.
Still nothing, so I'll raise it to 12 and throw the air stone in for a bit and see if things get a little more roudy. if worst comes to worst, make a big angry starter and re pitch. No biggie.

In the mean time, I'll knock up and keg a few ALES..


----------



## manticle (7/5/14)

Since you've underpitched I would be adding more yeast anyway.

I'm a 1 pack guy but I pitch the pack into 6-8 L and add the lot in when active.


----------



## Red Baron (7/5/14)

This has been an informative thread. I've got an aussie lager currently in the fermenting fridge that I know I underpitched- I won't make that mistake again after reading everyone's methods. 

Thanks,
RB


----------



## anthonyUK (7/5/14)

I used a 'direct pitch' pack of 2278 recently. It was in date and was refrigerated in the shop.
It didn't swell which wasn't encouraging and took 4-5 days for any signs of fermentation @12°c.
The batch doesn't smell or taste like it will be usable but I'll give it a few more days before chucking it.
Gravity has hardly changed either :unsure:


----------



## mje1980 (8/5/14)

Dave70 said:


> I realy am a larger noob.
> Still nothing, so I'll raise it to 12 and throw the air stone in for a bit and see if things get a little more roudy. if worst comes to worst, make a big angry starter and re pitch. No biggie.
> 
> In the mean time, I'll knock up and keg a few ALES..


I don't brew many lagers, they take a long time to do right, any wrong flavours stand out, and really, I'm more of an ale man. However I do like to brew them now and again. They are a challenge to get right ( not that I've got my ales perfect or anything ). Apart from ferm temp, I've found when it comes to yeast, pitch lots, and pitch it cold. This has made the biggest difference for me, and I'm quite happy with my lagers now.

You can always use wyeast 1007 at 12-15c for a very nice pseudo lager.


----------



## Dave70 (8/5/14)

mje1980 said:


> I don't brew many lagers, they take a long time to do right, any wrong flavours stand out, and really, I'm more of an ale man. However I do like to brew them now and again. They are a challenge to get right ( not that I've got my ales perfect or anything ). Apart from ferm temp, I've found when it comes to yeast, pitch lots, and pitch it cold. This has made the biggest difference for me, and I'm quite happy with my lagers now.
> 
> You can always use wyeast 1007 at 12-15c for a very nice pseudo lager.


Pseudo? _never!.._Hated the implications of that word ever since _Pseudo Echo._

But I could count on one hand how many lagers I've brewed - as if it wasn't obvious. Yeah, they can be tricky and long winded, but I'd hate to bypass bock, pilsner or dunkel awesomeness because of it.
Certainly be wiser next time for this thread.


----------



## philistine (10/5/14)

This is exactly the thread I need right now! Cheers guys.
I've just finished the boil etc. and cubed 20-21 litres of what I reckon is gonna be a ******* bullshit pilsner.
Anyway, Im using white labs wlp800 and Im gonna grow my starter to 3L over the next day or 3 (or however long it takes) but Im wondering, when should I pitch it?

Should I wait till it finishes fermenting and the yeast drops out? If I do this, im guessing the idea would be to cold crash once complete, decant a bit of the starter wort out and pitch the slurry?
OR
should I pitch it wort and all while its in full swing with krausen?

Dave70 - I gather you went with option A?


----------



## Mzungu (10/5/14)

I pitch my dry lager yeasts at 15 degrees and set to 12 when the door shuts, never had a problem. Go to sleep and have action the next day.


----------



## mje1980 (10/5/14)

philistine said:


> This is exactly the thread I need right now! Cheers guys.
> I've just finished the boil etc. and cubed 20-21 litres of what I reckon is gonna be a ******* bullshit pilsner.
> Anyway, Im using white labs wlp800 and Im gonna grow my starter to 3L over the next day or 3 (or however long it takes) but Im wondering, when should I pitch it?
> 
> ...


How strong is your pils? If 1.050 or more I'd go 4-5 litre starter, then when done, add to ferm fridge with your cube. Leave it over night to cool to just below ferm temp ( I aim for around 7c ). Pour off some of the starter wort ( I leave a bit, just not too much but it's up to you ) and pitch and put back in the ferm fridge, and adjust temp slightly up to ferm temp ( 10c for me ). Wait


----------



## manticle (10/5/14)

philistine said:


> This is exactly the thread I need right now! Cheers guys.
> I've just finished the boil etc. and cubed 20-21 litres of what I reckon is gonna be a ******* bullshit pilsner.
> Anyway, Im using white labs wlp800 and Im gonna grow my starter to 3L over the next day or 3 (or however long it takes) but Im wondering, when should I pitch it?
> 
> ...


I pitch when active. Sources such as Mr Malty suggest likewise but people use either method.


----------



## TheWiggman (10/5/14)

How's the lager going Dave? Krausen plus by now?


----------



## Black n Tan (10/5/14)

philistine said:


> This is exactly the thread I need right now! Cheers guys.
> I've just finished the boil etc. and cubed 20-21 litres of what I reckon is gonna be a ******* bullshit pilsner.
> Anyway, Im using white labs wlp800 and Im gonna grow my starter to 3L over the next day or 3 (or however long it takes) but Im wondering, when should I pitch it?
> 
> ...


I favour fermenting out the starter and just pitching the yeast. The reason there is nowhere to hide off-flavours in a lager. A starter typically represents a significant portion of the wort (10-20% or even more) and doesn't taste great due to significant oxidation from stirring/shaking. White and Zainasheff in the Yeast book recommend just pitching the yeast if the starter is more than 5% of the beer volume.


----------



## slcmorro (10/5/14)

I've brewed a number of what I think, are successful lagers.

My standard go-to is W34/70, just because it's easy and it's cheap. Either pitch 2 packs in a 1050-1060 OG wort, or make a starter from 1 pack over 2 days (I collect the first runnings of any beer I brew to use as starters, and store them in my kegerator in a sanitised mason jar) just by keeping it at or around 12c. Dump the whole lot into the wort in your FV when it's around 14c and jobs done.

I usually ferment my lagers for up to 4 weeks around 11c, and I also rack to secondary and cold condition my lagers at 0.5c for 2 weeks prior to kegging. Some people use gelatine to clear it even more, but I find cold conditioning does a good enough job for me.

I'll be brewing primarily lagers this winter, after I finish off the 2 variants of DrSmurtos Golden I'm doing today.


----------



## The Lords of Diacetyl (10/5/14)

Dave70 said:


> No.
> No I didn't...
> 
> Wort was at 10, but the starter would have been more like 17 or there about.
> ...


this may be a dumb question, but what was the starter doing at 17oC?
My lager yeast is always kept at around brew temp - 11.5oC.


----------



## Black n Tan (10/5/14)

The Lords of Diacetyl said:


> this may be a dumb question, but what was the starter doing at 17oC?
> My lager yeast is always kept at around brew temp - 11.5oC.


Most people ferment their starter at room temperature. There is no need to incubate your starter at lager fermentation temp because yeast replicate better at warmer temps and a starter is all about making more yeast.


----------



## manticle (10/5/14)

As well as growing yeast numbers, you are also growing healthy yeast for specific conditions.

I ferment mine cool, ferment temps, same wort, no agitation after krausen appears into good size stater wort and have always found a good, healthy ferment beginning in the main batch very quickly.


----------



## Black n Tan (10/5/14)

manticle said:


> As well as growing yeast numbers, you are also growing healthy yeast for specific conditions.
> 
> I ferment mine cool, ferment temps, same wort, no agitation after krausen appears into good size stater wort and have always found a good, healthy ferment beginning in the main batch very quickly.


Incubating a lager yeast starter at room temperature does not make the yeast are any less ready for fermenting at lower temps. White and Zainasheff actually recommend against incubating a lager yeast starter cold but instead recommend incubating at 18-24C. That said I appreciate if you are pitching the whole starter incubating the yeast starter at lower temps will help avoid shocking the yeast when you pitch into cool wort.


----------



## manticle (10/5/14)

If you look at mr malty it says similar but that lager yeasts can be done cooler and if pitching active should be closer to wort temp. Next section discusses pros and cons of active versus decant - this and my own experience lead me to conclude that there are compromises whichever way you try rather than a hard, fast set of rules.

On phone but check mr malty 14 essential questions about starters.


----------



## Black n Tan (10/5/14)

manticle said:


> If you look at mr malty it says similar but that lager yeasts can be done cooler and if pitching active should be closer to wort temp. Next section discusses pros and cons of active versus decant - this and my own experience lead me to conclude that there are compromises whichever way you try rather than a hard, fast set of rules.
> 
> On phone but check mr malty 14 essential questions about starters.


MrMalty and Yeast book both say you can incubate you lager starter at colder temps but both seem to say it is unnecessary, except if pitching an active into a cooler wort (as I qualified earlier). I used to pitch an active starter some time ago but feel my beer (especially my lagers) has improved since I moved to just pitching the yeast (although there were some other incremental improvements that would have happened at the same time, so I cannot say with certainty that this is the reason), but certainly agree which ever way you go there are compromises.


----------



## dmac80 (10/5/14)

Another method i use to ensure a nice pitching rate is to cube my lager in 2 x 10 Litre cubes, pitch yeast from a 4L starter into fermenter with 1 cube, add the other 10 litres after about 24 hrs (or yeast action is evident). Learnt this method from a local craft brewery.

Note. The cubes and starter are usually in the fridge together at ferment temp for a day or so before pitching.


----------



## mrsupraboy (12/5/14)

Sorry to jump in but with my lager yeast if I was to make a starter into all grain brew what would I use to make the starter for a 23l batch.


----------



## slcmorro (12/5/14)

Collect the runnings from another AG brew, or use boiled DME.


----------



## mje1980 (12/5/14)

I go 100g of DME per litre.


----------



## mrsupraboy (12/5/14)

Can someone post me a good yeast starter guide. Something that tells me amounts to pitch. Howto step up a starter etc


----------



## slcmorro (12/5/14)

Plenty of info on this very forum. Use the search bar up the top right on the home page.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/54900-basics-of-making-and-using-a-yeast-starter/


----------



## Dave70 (14/5/14)

TheWiggman said:


> How's the lager going Dave? Krausen plus by now?


Pretty much. Ker-plunking through the airlock at around one kerplunk every 15-20 seconds at 12 deg.
Here's what I did, your results may vary.

Friday evening, make liter a weak-ish DME starter, about 1.005, then added around 2 L of wort to get it to around 1.030. Aerate buggery out of it with aquarium stone, same for the wort.

Starter was ticking over nicely by lunchtime Saturday - in the kitchen at around 20 deg - so I stuck it in with the fermenter to balance out the temps and pitched the lot that arvo.

By Sunday arvo we had liftoff. 
Was it the extra yeast? the air stone? or did it just need more time? Whatever it was it seems to be working OK now and doing sulfur burps.

A bit pissed off at myself over this. With the information on hand here and elsewhere, five minutes reading could have saved needless hassle. 
Worse still, I've extended the turnaround to drinkies by at least a week..


----------



## Mr. No-Tip (14/5/14)

While we're talking lager lag, I might tack on a rider question:

I made a 3l and a 2l starter of WLP833 on Sunday night, pitched at 20 degrees with the intention of getting big growth, then chilling to decant. They were well and truly going by Monday morning. I turned off the stir bar at about 48 hours, but kept at 20. This morning they were still pretty heavily krausened.

I had planned to chill tonight ahead of brewing on Friday to give the yeast 48 hours to drop out. I am half expecting to still find krausen when I got home. I didn't think that a lager starter at 20 would be any slower than an ale one - was I wrong?


----------

