# Least careful you've been sanitising without an infection



## thisispants (12/3/14)

Yep, basically what the title says. 

A lot of old school brewers seem to be fairly bemused about how careful some of the current brewers are about sanitisation. I'm basically wondering just how cavalier you have been with sanitisation without seeing any I'll effects.


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## dicko (12/3/14)

With regards to sanitation, boiling water coupled with time for contact can be your friend in most brewing practices.


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## DJ_L3ThAL (12/3/14)

I'm one of the 'over the top' sanitizers no doubt. But my uncle who has brewed for 30+ years (kits only) and turns his nose up at my all-grain antics (although since I started kegging, he is becoming more interested)... simply drops his hydrometer that's been on the shed shelf exposed to everything straight into the FV to take a gravity reading, then rinses under the tap (not sure if hot water) and wipes with a paper towel, back on the shelf until the next check..... says he's had no infections and I kind of believe him as I'm yet to taste a bad beer from him (for K&K).


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## Black Devil Dog (12/3/14)

I never used to pull my fermenter taps apart to give them a proper clean, god knows what was lurking in there. Other than that I've always tried to be pretty thorough.

I'm guessing some of the people who are bemused about sanitation, are also bemused about temperature control, pitching rates, fresh ingedients and other unimportant aspects of brewing.


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## pcmfisher (12/3/14)

dicko said:


> With regards to sanitation, boiling water coupled with time for contact can be your friend in most brewing practices.


It's the contact time that is the problem though.

I don't believe swishing a kettle of boiling water around in your fermenter stays hot enough for long enough to do much.

Not saying that is what you do, but that would be some people's interpretation.


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## dicko (12/3/14)

pcmfisher said:


> It's the contact time that is the problem though.
> 
> I don't believe swishing a kettle of boiling water around in your fermenter stays hot enough for long enough to do much.
> 
> Not saying that is what you do, but that would be some people's interpretation.


But a dismantled fermenter tap in 2 litres of boiling water probably stays hot enough for all intents and purposes


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## mr_wibble (12/3/14)

Reminds me of a complaint by a manager at bank about year-2000 remediation costs...

"We spent all this time and money on Y-2-K and nothing happened"

Read some stuff. 
( http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter2-2-3.html ) 

Work out what works best for you. Bacteria & fungii are pretty easy to sanitise.
But that one time you don't do it properly, all that work will go down the drain with the beer.


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## superstock (12/3/14)

I didn't clean my taps, then I noticed some discolouration, discovered what a PITA they are to clean, so replaced them with the original bungs and use a racking cane.


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## jyo (12/3/14)

I've always been a bit paranoid about cleanliness. Before AHB and the existence of Starsan and taking fermenter taps apart, I would just use pink neo and boiling water with my kit n kilos. I had a few infections

After an infection in my AG brewing, I went through a phase of percarbonate soak, pink neo, boiling water then starsan. Probably a bit over the top :blink:

Percarbonate soak, tap dismantle and clean, boiling water and starsan is my regular regime and I'm happy with that time/happiness ratio.


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## sp0rk (12/3/14)

superstock said:


> I didn't clean my taps, then I noticed some discolouration, discovered what a PITA they are to clean, so replaced them with the original bungs and use a racking cane.


New taps are like $3 from Bunnings...


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## big78sam (12/3/14)

superstock said:


> I didn't clean my taps, then I noticed some discolouration, discovered what a PITA they are to clean, so replaced them with the original bungs and use a racking cane.


Bunnings sell plastic taps for 1 or 2 dollars. I grab a few everynow and then and replace after a couple of months. I can't be bothered pulling apart for the sake of a couple of dollars.


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## superstock (12/3/14)

Bunnings is a 50 km drive for me.


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## dicko (12/3/14)

thisispants said:


> Yep, basically what the title says.
> 
> A lot of old school brewers seem to be fairly bemused about how careful some of the current brewers are about sanitisation. I'm basically wondering just how cavalier you have been with sanitisation without seeing any I'll effects.


Apologies OP.

I didn't intend to have this topic railroaded to the fors and againsts of cleaning fermenter taps.

In the days before all these new sanitisers were on the market, we home brewers had a choice of Sodium metabisulphide, bleach and /or boiling water.....I tended to use boiling water for most brewery sanitation as I could not stand the smell from the other two.

My regime was to clean everything immediately after use with a mild detergent and a soft sponge or cloth and then rinse it with liberal quantities of boiling water.
Bottles were always a problem as the glass ones tend to break if attacked with boiling water......some used to clean them and then heat them in the oven to achieve sanitation.

Things have certainly changed in the last ten to fifteen years when it comes to sanitisers for use in the brewery


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## JDW81 (12/3/14)

I don't take risks when it comes to sanitising for brewing. For me it is about eliminating variables. I don't spend time brewing and money on the best ingredients to then tip it down the drain cause I didn't sanitise my gear properly. 

I've been brewing in the same fermenters for about 5 years and am still yet to get an infected brew (although, one of those fermenters did recently go to the big brewhouse in the sky).

I say why risk it. Sanitising your gear isn't difficult.

JD


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## GrumpyPaul (12/3/14)

Now you're all making me paranoid....

I have never pulled a tap apart - simply turn the tap on and let the cleaning solution (usually perc) run through for a few seconds.

I have recently started using starsan as well as the washing with perc soluiton.

I am getting better - but mostly the strongest cleaning product I have used is "Blissful Ignorance" - unscented of course


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## JDW81 (12/3/14)

superstock said:


> Bunnings is a 50 km drive for me.


Ebay is your friend. Buy a few to make the postage worthwhile.


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## technobabble66 (12/3/14)

Generally fairly careful with cleaning most stuff, though it's only been with sod perc until a recent purchase of Starsan.

However, i decided a while ago that given i had just poured tap water into the FV to make up the appropriate volume with earlier K&K brews, surely tap water is fairly ok in other brews also (assuming yeast is pitched within a few hours, of course). So 4-5 recent brews have had extra cold water from the tap to dilute down to required OG (i'd overshot the OG on them), and i have used ice blocks in the last 2-3 to drop the wort temp a little bit quicker. The ice was just water straight out of the tap, into regular ice trays, into the freezer uncovered, etc, & into the wort the next day. I'm told it's risky, but like i mentioned, it's what's required in K&K recipes (well, the tap water bit, anyway; and not much should be floating around my freezer infecting things) so i'm assuming it's a fairly low risk. No infections so far. h34r:
Livin' life of the edge!! B)


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## 431neb (12/3/14)

How does one embed a video ? I discovered a very easy way to break apart the plastic fermenter taps for cleaning but it would be easier to video it and post the vid.


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## sponge (12/3/14)

I just put a small bit of dowel/pen/texta/etc that is a bit smaller than the tap diameter but solid enough not to break from a good thumb, turn the tap to about 45' then hit the pen and tap down on a folded up towel and the tap comes apart quite easily in two pieces.

Now, back to the OP!


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## TimT (12/3/14)

Cleaning is bloody annoying so I'm just waiting for someone on this thread to say, 'yeah, just bung it in there and don't worry about cleaning up the previous brew, it'll be fine', and that'll be my permission.

After you rinse out with whatever - Starsan, sodium percarbonate, or something else - you've got to dry it out. Stuff will always get in in that time between drying out and adding the wort. So though you can minimise risks you can never effectively eliminate them. Trying to eliminate bacteria is like fighting with an invisible world champion wrestler.

Anyway, most important thing for a healthy brew, I'd say, is a good wort and healthy yeast. Once the yeast really gets going it provides a very effective safety blanket of its own (protective layer of gases).


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## Mattress (12/3/14)

JDW81 said:


> I don't take risks when it comes to sanitising for brewing. For me it is about eliminating variables. I don't spend time brewing and money of the best ingredients to then tip it down the drain cause I didn't sanitise my gear properly.
> 
> I've been brewing in the same fermenters for about 5 years and am still yet to get an infected brew (although, one of those fermenters did recently go to the big brewhouse in the sky).
> 
> ...


This.
Especially when products like Starsan are so easy to us.

I keep a 20 litre bucket filled with diluted Starsan in the brewery. Gets changed when the level gets a bit low.

Everything post boil that comes into contact with my beer either bets dipped in the bucket for a minute or so, or a bit of the solution gets tipped into the container and swirled around.

Never had an infection.


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## acarey (12/3/14)

I high pressure hose clean my FV then starsan spray. end of.

kegs, same deal.

Bottles get rinsed after use then sprayed with starsan shortly before filling.

Never had an infection.

I started off way more diligent but am getting slacker and slacker. You could probably put it on a chart with a downward trend except line will skyrocket when I finally get an infection.


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## mb-squared (12/3/14)

JDW81 said:


> I say why risk it. Sanitising your gear isn't difficult.


my sentiments exactly. too much work to dump it down the drain because you couldn't be bothered to squirt some starsan on it


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## MaltyHops (12/3/14)

superstock said:


> I didn't clean my taps, then I noticed some discolouration, discovered what a PITA they are to clean, so replaced them with the original bungs and use a racking cane.


Actually, they're really easy to disassemble and clean - from _a post of mine_:

Here is a thread about disassembling fermenter taps (the most common type) _Cleaning Fermenter Taps_ - I do something similar but use a spare racking cane that fits inside the tap and slam the exposed end of the racking cane onto a tea towel while holding on to the tap.

Once disassembled, the tap parts can be scrubbed and soaked in starsan or something, then easily put back together.


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## squirrell (12/3/14)

i think the general point being proposed by thisispants, which I tend to agree with is to consider whether there is overkill and does the cost expended in cleaning convert to proportionate benefits.

eg if the sloppy cleaner spends 5 minutes cleaning and gets one infected brew every hundred, and the fastidious cleaner spends 2 hours and gets none, who is better off?? Personally I'd be prepared to take the one in a hundred bad brew to save the additional 200 man hours. Someone brought up Y2K - having worked on a few of those projects I can assure you there was a huge amount of unecessary wastage and overkill. Its a bit like saying you cant compromise on safety and therefore wear a fire suit and helmet when driving a car. EVERYTHING has reasonable limits based on a cost benefit analysis.


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## Dunkelbrau (12/3/14)

TimT said:


> Cleaning is bloody annoying so I'm just waiting for someone on this thread to say, 'yeah, just bung it in there and don't worry about cleaning up the previous brew, it'll be fine', and that'll be my permission.
> 
> After you rinse out with whatever - Starsan, sodium percarbonate, or something else - you've got to dry it out. Stuff will always get in in that time between drying out and adding the wort. So though you can minimise risks you can never effectively eliminate them. Trying to eliminate bacteria is like fighting with an invisible world champion wrestler.
> 
> Anyway, most important thing for a healthy brew, I'd say, is a good wort and healthy yeast. Once the yeast really gets going it provides a very effective safety blanket of its own (protective layer of gases).


Starsan and other "no rinse sanitisers" are exactly that.. No rinse. No need to dry, just rack straight onto the foam (ensuring the main bulk of liquid Is out).

As for best things for the brew, sanitisation, yeast health and quality ingredients/processes (including temp control etc) are on the top of the list.

You never know how long the lag time will be, and if the bugs are in there they can survive with yeast (acetobacter, lactobacillus, Brett etc). Wyeast sells blended strains intentionally.. Why wouldn't they have an effect on taste if fermenting with the yeast strain?

Maybe some people have had slight infections in ALL their brews? You never know until someone who knows what it is tastes it and tells you! 

Sanitisation is extremely important, especially for a 5-6 hour brew day to be wasted on top of having to buy a carton because I fucked a batch. I'd rather put a few mL of starsan in my regime


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## Topher (12/3/14)

Back when I was doing kits I dropped the stirring spoon into the full fermenter just before pitching. 

It sank, so I rolled up the sleeves and dove in up to my armpits. No problems with infection.....but I'm a bit more careful now!


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## Dunkelbrau (12/3/14)

squirrell said:


> i think the general point being proposed by thisispants, which I tend to agree with is to consider whether there is overkill and does the cost expended in cleaning convert to proportionate benefits.
> 
> eg if the sloppy cleaner spends 5 minutes cleaning and gets one infected brew every hundred, and the fastidious cleaner spends 2 hours and gets none, who is better off?? Personally I'd be prepared to take the one in a hundred bad brew to save the additional 200 man hours. Someone brought up Y2K - having worked on a few of those projects I can assure you there was a huge amount of unecessary wastage and overkill. Its a bit like saying you cant compromise on safety and therefore wear a fire suit and helmet when driving a car. EVERYTHING has reasonable limits based on a cost benefit analysis.


Cleaning the gunk out from the krausen will be the bulk of everyone's cleaning session.

It takes literally 1 minute contact time for starsan to be effective. This makes it 200 minutes.. Which I'll get to below!

Once you get foreign bacteria in an FV, you have to sanitise it correctly to eliminate the bacteria from impacting every brew from then on.

I clean with sodium percarbonate and got water initially post ferment and store my FV to dry, during my brew day (usually nearin end of boil) I'll rinse and starsan my FV and run it through the chiller etc to sanitise everything in the chain post boil.

No extra time taken as I'm still boiling!


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## JDW81 (12/3/14)

squirrell said:


> i think the general point being proposed by thisispants, which I tend to agree with is to consider whether there is overkill and does the cost expended in cleaning convert to proportionate benefits.
> 
> eg if the sloppy cleaner spends 5 minutes cleaning and gets one infected brew every hundred, and the fastidious cleaner spends 2 hours and gets none, who is better off?? Personally I'd be prepared to take the one in a hundred bad brew to save the additional 200 man hours.


I don't think anyone is proposing spending 2 hours sanitising your gear each brew. If you clean you gear well at the end of each brew (which only takes 5-10 minutes), then you don't need to spend a long time sanitising. A quick spray with starsan is all that is necessary.

If people are prepared to take risks and don't get infections then more power to them. I for one, and many others I know, am/are willing to put the small amount of time in required to ensure there is the smallest risk of infection possible.

Sanitising properly should be a quick and easy process, and the time taken to do it should be looked at as time well spent, not a a trivial chore that gets in the way of drinking time.

Just my view and by no means speaking for others.

JD


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## QldKev (12/3/14)

TimT said:


> Cleaning is bloody annoying so I'm just waiting for someone on this thread to say, 'yeah, just bung it in there and don't worry about cleaning up the previous brew, it'll be fine', and that'll be my permission.
> 
> After you rinse out with whatever - Starsan, sodium percarbonate, or something else - you've got to dry it out. Stuff will always get in in that time between drying out and adding the wort. So though you can minimise risks you can never effectively eliminate them. Trying to eliminate bacteria is like fighting with an invisible world champion wrestler.
> 
> Anyway, most important thing for a healthy brew, I'd say, is a good wort and healthy yeast. Once the yeast really gets going it provides a very effective safety blanket of its own (protective layer of gases).



I assume you don't know, Starsan, as with some other sanitisers, are no-rinse.


Sanitizing is about starting with a clean environment, and maintaining it. I've had a lot of brews from proud brewers and thought they were infected. Years back there was a rule I read on here often.
4 Step of sanatising
1. Clean
2. Clean
3. Clean
4. Sanatise
You cannot sanatise a dirty environment.


I've used a fermenter for 6 months straight without re-sanitizing it, and do it for many brews often I brew on prior yeast cakes, so a good healthy batch of yeast to wake up immediately. But as soon as the keg is full from the fermenter, I dump excess yeast and pour in a fresh cube. If the prior beer is not infected from the fermenter, then the fermenter is safe. 

Same as my kegs. When they blow, I leave them in the fridge full of CO2. Next time I need to keg beer I have a keg full of CO2 that a quick rinse and refill can be done.

BUT, I would never think of grabbing a dry fermenter and just filling it. I always soak them in napisan and then a good hit of starsan before putting them back into use. Same as my kegs if they have been un-used for a while. 

Napisan is a brewers friend. Soak fermenters, I keep my cubes full of it. It keeps them clean and sanatised. Dump it, a quick rinse and then spray with starsan and you are back in business. 

Also depending on where you live makes a difference. If you live in the middle of fruit trees life has just got tough.


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## 431neb (12/3/14)

Here's a link to an old thread that I have (inadvertently) woken up . It may be of some interest to the original poster.


http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/71241-best-way-to-clean-and-sanitise-bottles/


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## Beer Ninja (12/3/14)

431neb said:


> How does one embed a video ? I discovered a very easy way to break apart the plastic fermenter taps for cleaning but it would be easier to video it and post the vid.


If it's a YouTube just copy the URL in your message and submit your post. The video will embed after the post is submitted.


DO NOT hit the return button when you paste the link or you'll end up with a blue link rather than an embedded video.


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## manticle (12/3/14)

TimT said:


> After you rinse out with whatever - Starsan, sodium percarbonate, or something else - you've got to dry it out.


Actually starsan you don't. Spray/soak, empty excess and between 30 seconds and 3 minutes later, you're good to go.


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## manticle (12/3/14)

squirrell said:


> i think the general point being proposed by thisispants, which I tend to agree with is to consider whether there is overkill and does the cost expended in cleaning convert to proportionate benefits.
> 
> eg if the sloppy cleaner spends 5 minutes cleaning and gets one infected brew every hundred, and the fastidious cleaner spends 2 hours and gets none, who is better off?? Personally I'd be prepared to take the one in a hundred bad brew to save the additional 200 man hours. Someone brought up Y2K - having worked on a few of those projects I can assure you there was a huge amount of unecessary wastage and overkill. Its a bit like saying you cant compromise on safety and therefore wear a fire suit and helmet when driving a car. EVERYTHING has reasonable limits based on a cost benefit analysis.


As per my first post - your brew, your risk. Everyone takes risks - it's just being informed and deciding which to take and which to eliminate. Only you can decide that.


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## TimT (12/3/14)

_Years back there was a rule I read on here often._
_4 Step of sanatising_
_1. Clean_
_2. Clean_
_3. Clean_
_4. Sanatise_
_You cannot sanatise a dirty environment._

Just yesterday I was reading some instructions for a method of breaking malted barley up - you throw it in a tin can with some 'clean rocks'. I remember thinking at the time - 'clean rocks? Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron, like 'clean dirt'?'

Then again I've also been known to say, 'who cares if there's a bit of dirt in the bottle, I've just boiled the hell out of it. That's _clean_ dirt....'


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## Black Devil Dog (12/3/14)

TimT said:


> Just yesterday I was reading some instructions for a method of breaking malted barley up - you throw it in a tin can with some 'clean rocks'.


I'd throw those instructions into a tin can with a live match.


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## indica86 (12/3/14)

I didn't take the tap off the FV for 8 years.


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## Aaron1.0 (13/3/14)

This thread makes me think of monks in the middle ages using wooden kives and gorse to strain the mash. I wonder if they had many issues with infections? I guess all they had access to was boiling water for sterilising.


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## JDW81 (14/3/14)

Aaron1.0 said:


> This thread makes me think of monks in the middle ages using wooden kives and gorse to strain the mash. I wonder if they had many issues with infections? I guess all they had access to was boiling water for sterilising.


I've never been a fan of looking at how people did things hundreds of years ago. We've come a long way since then and brewing practices have changed a lot. While the basic premise may be the same, the science behind it is now understood and the importance of temperature, cleanliness and sanitisation are not really debatable. 

I'm not suggesting the monks were taking dumps in their fermenting barrels, far from it, however people often talk about the monks, or their grandfather's beer but how any people have actually tasted it? It might taste like ass by our modern standards. 

The monks may have made great beer, I just don't think we should be referring to brewing practices we can't make a quality judgement on due to the passing of many decades to centuries if we haven't actually tasted it, or had the opportunity to compare to modern best practice e

JD.


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## Dunkelbrau (14/3/14)

Aaron1.0 said:


> This thread makes me think of monks in the middle ages using wooden kives and gorse to strain the mash. I wonder if they had many issues with infections? I guess all they had access to was boiling water for sterilising.


Considering they didn't add yeast, and wild yeast would have taken hold, I would say 100% of brews were "infected"


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## QldKev (14/3/14)

JDW81 said:


> I've never been a fan of looking at how people did things hundreds of years ago. We've come a long way since then and brewing practices have changed a lot. While the basic premise may be the same, the science behind it is now understood and the importance of temperature, cleanliness and sanitisation are not really debatable.
> 
> I'm not suggesting the monks were taking dumps in their fermenting barrels, far from it, however people often talk about the monks, or their grandfather's beer but how any people have actually tasted it? It might taste like ass by our modern standards.
> 
> ...


It reminds me of a brew show I saw a couple of years back. I can't remember the name of it but they were using ancient recipes and recreating beers. Many were pre-hop styles. There was quite a few they could not finish the glass.


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## TimT (16/3/14)

A lot of ales were drunk quite fresh, within a day or so of pitching the yeast. Many more may have omitted herbs and spices completely during the ferment, but got flavour in simply by hanging a bag in the wort a few minutes before serving. It would have been served not just as a water substitute but a bread substitute. And - though there were several ways to prime beers (with more sugar, 'barm', or shavings of something like ginger to make the drink especially lively) - many were simply drunk flat. And if they relied more on wild yeasts (that's a complicated question, innit, because they did know how to use old yeast as starters for new yeasts) then we can expect their ales to have had a much wider range of flavours than ales today. It's not just a question of them having different tastes to us. They made, used, served, and thought about ale in different ways to us.


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## Pogierob (16/3/14)

My father has been brewing coopers tins for about 30 years and I don't think he knows what sanitizer is. 
He washes everything before and after use 
I don't like his beers but that comes down to the kit yeast mostly. 

If you are going to be lazy, then you must be thorough in your laziness, so why not just use a but of sanitizer for just in case. 

I have my BIAB down to 3.5 hours, I lost one batch due to my element blowing up, why lose a batch simply cause you couldn't be bothered with sanitizer?


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## Chuckie (17/3/14)

Never bothered pulling my fermenter taps apart (40 brews & 3 fermenters).
Ended up with 3 infected brews in a row.
Went to Bunnings bought a handful of new taps straight away. (they are just $2 or so each). I will replace them every couple of batches.
When I pulled the old taps off I could see straight away gunk that would not be cleaned out simply by sanitiser and swishing for a few minutes.
Clean, clean, clean !
I won't get caught again.
Cheers,
Andrew


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## manticle (17/3/14)

You can pull the taps apart. I do it every brew.
Maltyhops linked the relevant how-tos a page or so ago.


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## Mardoo (17/3/14)

QldKev said:


> It reminds me of a brew show I saw a couple of years back. I can't remember the name of it but they were using ancient recipes and recreating beers. Many were pre-hop styles. There was quite a few they could not finish the glass.


I managed to choke down a Hahn Extra Dry once.


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## manticle (17/3/14)

> i think the general point being proposed by thisispants, which I tend to agree with is to consider whether there is overkill and does the cost expended in cleaning convert to proportionate benefits.
> 
> eg if the sloppy cleaner spends 5 minutes cleaning and gets one infected brew every hundred, and the fastidious cleaner spends 2 hours and gets none, who is better off?? Personally I'd be prepared to take the one in a hundred bad brew to save the additional 200 man hours. Someone brought up Y2K - having worked on a few of those projects I can assure you there was a huge amount of unecessary wastage and overkill. Its a bit like saying you cant compromise on safety and therefore wear a fire suit and helmet when driving a car. EVERYTHING has reasonable limits based on a cost benefit analysis.


As a counter to that though - some infections can be very difficult to remove once they take hold in the brewhouse.

Combine several 3-4+ hour AG brewdays with chemical bombardment of equipment (and or cost of replacements) combined with disappoinment and stress and cost of ingredients as you tip multiple batches of nasty tasting beer down the drain and add that to the cost:benefit analysis.

It happens and it has happened to me and brewers I know, some of whom have seriously considered chucking it all in in frustration.


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## Rod (17/3/14)

I wash and sanitize after each brew , take the tap apart , hydrometer , two part airlock everything

when I make the brew , usually stovetops , wash and sanitize as above

I sanitize with PSR and rinse with Sydney Tap water , why not the water to bring the batch to 25 litres is from the tap

wash and sanitize before racking

wash and sanitize before bulk priming and bottling

I use grolsh bottles , which have labels removed ( essential if you are soaking bottles as the paper labels reduce the sanitizing effect ) and sanitize by soaking the bottles , 12 at a time is a square bucket 

then fill bottles 

while i fill the bottles the next 12 are soaking

rinse bottles 3 times with tap water using a special rinse apparatus and bottle draining rack

when finished 

wash and sanitize all again


takes 2 hours to bottles a batch of 50 bottles

my habits come from my days in a milk factory and having worked in the bacteriological laboratory

would like to have sanitized water , but not possible , not much contamination from Sydney water


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## MaltyHops (17/3/14)

Rod said:


> I sanitize with PSR and rinse with Sydney Tap water , why not the water to bring the batch to 25 litres is from the tap
> ...
> would like to have sanitized water , but not possible , not much contamination from Sydney water


You could nochill some water beforehand? Didn't Sydney have that bacterial outbreak a few years ago?


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## Bribie G (17/3/14)

Giardia, I remember that, about the year 1998. I think Giardia was actually a hipster thing or maybe a rumour put around by the pharmaceutical companies, because everyone was suddenly getting it in Brisbane as well. Probably in the same category as Hot Side Aeration. Haven't heard about it for ages ... the new one is gluten intolerance of course.

Back on topic, in the heady old days when Chappo was brewing we went to a brew day at his place and when he was ready to plate chill into the fermenter, he went outside to grab the FV that was a filthy looking thing that had been sitting under a tree next to one of his car bodies. "No worries, it's had Starsan in it". He tipped out the Starsan and carried the FV into the brewery not by the handles but with one hand stuck in it to grasp the rim.

Chappo had some marital and employment problems and the brew got left in the fridge in primary for a couple of months. Eventually some guys were round there (Bob from Cleveland and others I remember) and they reported that the brew turned out just fine


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## Rod (17/3/14)

MaltyHops said:


> You could nochill some water beforehand? Didn't Sydney have that bacterial outbreak a few years ago?


would like to run a survey to see who does not add tap water to their brew

particularly those does who do kit and kilo , or extracts like me


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## TimT (18/3/14)

I just mash in tapwater. I used to be worried about chlorine affecting the viability of the yeast actually, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. Prior to that I used tankwater. The mash and boil would kill off bacteria anyway.


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## Beer Ninja (18/3/14)

I brew with kits and just use cold tap water. Only on brew #13 but no problems yet. I did used to brew some years ago for a period of about two years using kits and tap water, never any problems back then either.

I did try letting the water rest for 24 hours once to 'evaporate' the chlorine but couldn't taste any difference. Maybe the dark roasted malt flavour hid the chlorine taste. :chug:


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## Aaron1.0 (18/3/14)

JDW81 said:


> I've never been a fan of looking at how people did things hundreds of years ago. We've come a long way since then and brewing practices have changed a lot. While the basic premise may be the same, the science behind it is now understood and the importance of temperature, cleanliness and sanitisation are not really debatable.
> 
> I'm not suggesting the monks were taking dumps in their fermenting barrels, far from it, however people often talk about the monks, or their grandfather's beer but how any people have actually tasted it? It might taste like ass by our modern standards.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree at all and I'm certainly not suggesting that beer brewed like that would be better. But for all the effort put in, it must have been drinkable at least. The original post was regarding the least careful you can be without an infection which is what made it come to mind...
If the beer was any good, it would have been due to trial and error and a bit of luck (e.g. caves at the right temperature for lagering) rather than the science that we have at our disposal these days. But I definitely agree that there is not anything to be gained by cutting corners with temperature, cleanliness and sanitisation like you say JD.


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## Rod (18/3/14)

Remember beer was made using wild yeast yeast and open clay pots :blink:

also we use a lot of ingredients that are not pasteurized

yeast
gelatine made from horses hooves
sugar and dextrose for bulk priming 
dry hopping
bottle caps

to name a few , all possible sources , and most safe


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## TimT (18/3/14)

_If the beer was any good, it would have been due to trial and error and a bit of luck_

Disagree. Even by medieval times people had been brewing for millenia.

Not to get too philosophical but.... it's more or less habitual these days to think that history is progressive, that we're going from a worse world to a better world, one change at a time. But historical change isn't like that; sometimes the good gets checked out with the bad. So it is with brewing: we now know about how bacteria can adversely affect brews and we know how we can stop that, most of the time anyway (good). But we've lost a whole culture of brewing: people no longer brew table beers, house beers, have specialised house recipes for ales, or old family recipes (bad).


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## Rod (18/3/14)

TimT said:


> _If the beer was any good, it would have been due to trial and error and a bit of luck_
> 
> Disagree. Even by medieval times people had been brewing for millenia.
> 
> Not to get too philosophical but.... it's more or less habitual these days to think that history is progressive, that we're going from a worse world to a better world, one change at a time. But historical change isn't like that; sometimes the good gets checked out with the bad. So it is with brewing: we now know about how bacteria can adversely affect brews and we know how we can stop that, most of the time anyway (good). But we've lost a whole culture of brewing: people no longer brew table beers, house beers, have specialised house recipes for ales, or old family recipes (bad).


It did not come out the way I meant it too , 

what I meant to say was that many years ago beer was made under primitive conditions , but it worked for them


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## carpedaym (18/3/14)

I started brewing a year ago and have been exercising middle-of-the-road sanitizing practices for reasons which (I assume) are in alignment with the original spirit of the thread. But each brew I worry more and more about what might be slowly taking hold on my equipment.



manticle said:


> As a counter to that though - some infections can be very difficult to remove once they take hold in the brewhouse.
> 
> ... as you tip multiple batches of nasty tasting beer down the drain


If / when I get an infection I think I'll hit up a k&k after trying to address the issue, so at least if I fail and that one goes south too, I haven't poured too much of my soul into what I'm tipping out.


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## marksy (18/3/14)

From JP

"The definition and objective of sanitization is to reduce bacteria and contaminants to insignificant or manageable levels. The terms clean, sanitize and sterilize are often used interchangeably, but should not be. Items may be clean but not sanitized or vice versa. Here are the definitions:

Clean - To be free from dirt, stain, or foreign matter.
Sanitize - To kill/reduce spoiling microorganisms to negligible levels.
Sterilize - To eliminate all forms of life, especially microorganisms, either by chemical or physical means."
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter2-2.html

First time using equipment - I will give it a good clean with suds and then sanitize.

After I have finished with a keg or fermenter - I will wash it with suds and then come time to use it I will just sanitize.

After drinking from bottles - I will rinse out with water to remove trace of sediment, come time to use I will just give the bottle a rinse in water and then sanitize.

I pull apart all my taps before using them to clean them, it takes 10secs and its a likely place for nasties to hide and rinse out your airlocks (sometimes wort makes it way into there)

You dont have to be too anal about it, its just another step in the process of making beer.


But to answer your question - 1 cap of no rinse with pint of water and chuck everything fermenter and shake for a few minutes. That is my regime.


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## stakka82 (18/3/14)

manticle said:


> As a counter to that though - some infections can be very difficult to remove once they take hold in the brewhouse.
> 
> Combine several 3-4+ hour AG brewdays with chemical bombardment of equipment (and or cost of replacements) combined with disappoinment and stress and cost of ingredients as you tip multiple batches of nasty tasting beer down the drain and add that to the cost:benefit analysis.
> 
> It happens and it has happened to me and brewers I know, some of whom have seriously considered chucking it all in in frustration.



As someone who lost probably 10 batches last year, amen to that.

From personal experience though I think a large part of it is environmental.

I brewed for years with dirty fermenter taps and a mediocre sanitisation regime without an issue. Then I moved and got a problem, and was buying new fermenters, disassembling everything and boiling, cleaning everything, sanitising, like mad, and still not able to shake the problem.

Then I moved where I brew, and the problem went away, even with equipment that had had infected wort in it, and going back to 'a quick spray with a hose and some starsan'. 

It's unfortunately not as simple as severity/paranoia level of cleanliness = chance of infection


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## marksy (18/3/14)

stakka82 said:


> As someone who lost probably 10 batches last year, amen to that.
> 
> From personal experience though I think a large part of it is environmental.
> 
> ...


Thats sucks. What did you put it down to in the end? Did u move from outside to inside etc?


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## stakka82 (18/3/14)

Still don't know. Wild yeast, but of unknown origin.

I just don't brew at home now, I either brew at a friend's or at my parents place, don't have problems at either place.

I do a test beer here every few months to see if I can move back but cop it every time.

So I haven't beaten the problem, I just work around it unfortunately.


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## Black Devil Dog (18/3/14)

Caught up with a mate recently who brews k & K and he was showing me his set up. Infection nirvana, is what he should call his brewery. "Clean" fermenters had brown stuff around the tap thread. His bottle stand was dirty and pretty much everything looked like it still needed to be soaked and sanitised, but as far as he was concerned it was good to go.


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## lael (18/3/14)

First brew ever - my friend and I found some brewing gear by the side of the road, gave it a rinse, washed it with morning fresh and then threw some boiling water over the insides. Didn't have any sanitiser or feel like buying any. My friend - "they've been doing this since the middle ages... don't worry so much about cleaning it!" put down a Coopers Ginger beer kit - last minute - he grabs some lemons, cuts in half, squeezes and throws it in. Mix with random spoon.

Turned out fine


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## manticle (19/3/14)

That proves it.


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## Donske (19/3/14)

I was in the "clean out with a hose then splash some starsan around" camp for a while, I've recently added a boiling water step to my sanitizing regime, not due to any issues on my end, I've never had an infection.

One of my mates went through an awful run of lost batches though which made me a bit more paranoid, hopefully I can continue my good fortune.


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## lael (19/3/14)

manticle said:


> That proves it.


lol - Never been as laissez faire since


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## Rod (19/3/14)

IMHO

the splashing etc of boiling water does 3/5 of next to nothing

unless the area ( and it would need to be the whole of the equipment in question )

to which you are applying the 'boiling water ' to reaches more than 70 degrees it does

nothing more than a rinse


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## BrewinWalruss (27/3/14)

My sanitation depends on the brew;

Beers EVERYTHING gets the bleach treatment. Bottles, spoons, taps... everything. But I never boiled my extracts (including the extra extracts I added to the no-boil-necessary) until I started a no-kit recipe.

My meads however get comparatively less attention- I will never boil or pasteurize honey ever ever ever. Even though there might be (probably are) wild yeasties and bacteria across the fruits and other things I add. I will still never destroy my precious precious honey.


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