# Looking For A Pale Ale Guru



## mattemmo (2/2/08)

Howdy, I'm wanting to do nice Pale Ale kit and am asking for a few suggestions as to which kits seem to work the best. 

If someone could also explain the differences in flavours and how they're achieved in Aussie Pale Ale vs American vs English I'd be stoked. I guess I'm confused how a Coopers Pale Ale and a Little Creatures Pale Ale are considered to be in the same genre. Yesterday I tried Murray's Nirvana Pale Ale (which from what I've read is English PA in style) and loved it, I'd say it's similar to the Little Creatures. 

Would appreciate some godly advice! 

Thanks and rock on! 
matt


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## bconnery (2/2/08)

mattemmo said:


> Howdy, I'm wanting to do nice Pale Ale kit and am asking for a few suggestions as to which kits seem to work the best.
> 
> If someone could also explain the differences in flavours and how they're achieved in Aussie Pale Ale vs American vs English I'd be stoked. I guess I'm confused how a Coopers Pale Ale and a Little Creatures Pale Ale are considered to be in the same genre. Yesterday I tried Murray's Nirvana Pale Ale (which from what I've read is English PA in style) and loved it, I'd say it's similar to the Little Creatures.
> 
> ...


THe main differences are all in the hops. Yeast plays a part too but it is the classic hop flavours that really define the differences for me. I could give a big description on malts and the style but for a kit + what you need to know are the hops and yeast...
APAs have a nice malt background, a little crystal in there and a big hop flavour from US citrusy, mostly, hops like Cascade, Chinook, Amarillo, Simcoe and so on...
To do a nice kit look around at the APA recipes and consider a combination of hops like that. Do a small boil with a little of the kit and some hops for 10 minutes for some good flavour, then dry hop as well. You want a nice big hop flavour and aroma. Safale S-05 dried yeast or 1056 liquid are good choices. A neutral yeast that lets the hops drive through. 
EPAs use English hops, no surpise there, Goldings, Fuggles, First Gold, Bramling Cross, Challenger etc. 
Similar hopping, perhaps a little less than an APA but still a nice good hop hit. 
I love First Gold myself but any are good...
Use an english ale yeast like s-04 or Windsor or your favourite liquid, or again you could use s-05. 
Nirvana uses NZ hops, as Murrays do in all their beers, but I'm not certain which...

Coopers and little creatures are kind of in the same genre, but again, it is all about the hops. Little Creatures use a classic US hop combination, which is what really makes it so different to Coopers, amongst other things. It really is a broad style though. You can get a lot of variation amongst APAs just from the myriad of hop combinations before you even get to different malts and yeasts...


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## Adamt (2/2/08)

You're right, coopers pale ale and little creatures pale ale are very different.

American pale ales are light coloured ales (hence the name pale ale) with fairly high bitterness and dominant citrussy hop flavour and aroma. LCPA is a very good example of an american pale ale. Brewing one of these would require a fairly high dosage of american hops such as cascade or amarillo. Use any pale ale kit, and keep the sugar/dextrose to a minimum.

English pale ales are more malt dominant, with properties like biscuity, toffee, etc. and are also fairly high in bitterness. Some English pale ales are aggressively hopped for flavour and aroma (and often dry hopped), but with English hops which are grassy, nutty, earty, floral, etc. English pale ales are often carbonated very low (with the exception of bottled varieties) and served at cellar temperatures (10C) to allow better flavour perception. You can get some english pale ales from places like dan murphy's, for example Fuller's ESB, hobgoblin bitter. Cooper's Real Ale would be a good starting block with 1kg of dry malt extract, 250g of crystal steeped and with EK Goldings or Fuggles dry hopped.

There's not really a well defined genre for Australian pale ales, but I guess this is where you'd put CPA. CPA uses pride of ringwood hops which give a very distinctive hop flavour, although it isn't very strong.

Murray's I've read is meant to be a hybrid of american and english pale ales, with the english malt properties and american hop properties. I haven't tried it though.


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## mattemmo (3/2/08)

Thanks a lot guys, very well explained. Can you think of any examples of australian brews done in the style of an EPA? 

Also, if I were to do an american style, would you recommend sticking with one variety of hops, or a combination? If so what are some tried and true combos? 

cheers,
matt


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## wambesi (3/2/08)

Do your first with the one hop, then next time try maybe two, that way you will also taste the difference yourself.
It is quite common to have more than one though, if you search around for the APA recipes you will see, some that I have seen are Cascade, Amarillo and Chinook.


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## PostModern (3/2/08)

mattemmo said:


> Can you think of any examples of australian brews done in the style of an EPA?



Cascade Wizard Smith Ale.


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## mattemmo (11/2/08)

Guys, what flavours will different ale yeast will give me with an APA (or any ale). I've got S-04 in the fridge, few have suggested US-05. Yesterday I acquired a Grumpy's Boston Cream kit which comes with S-33. 

Would appreciate advice.

Cheers,
Matt


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## bconnery (11/2/08)

mattemmo said:


> Guys, what flavours will different ale yeast will give me with an APA (or any ale). I've got S-04 in the fridge, few have suggested US-05. Yesterday I acquired a Grumpy's Boston Cream kit which comes with S-33.
> 
> Would appreciate advice.
> 
> ...


S04 is a british ale yeast. A kind of fruitiness can come from it. Works well with english hops and malts particularly. 
S05 is a very clean yeast. It doesn't add a lot of flavour but rather lets the hops and malt flavourscome through. Excellent choice for APAs because of this. 
I'm not too familiar with s-33 but it is more a british style I believe...


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## Cortez The Killer (11/2/08)

US-56 is a very clean yeast - allowing for hop / malt flavour to come through

S-04 will give fruity flavours - which are desirable in an english style beer - though many dislike this yeast - to minimise the fruitiness ferment below 18*C

Cheers

Edit: Not quick enough


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## jdsaint (29/10/09)

As a pale ale lover I have got 1 can of coopers pale ale 700grams of ldme, 1 kg of dex and a starter from coopers sparkling ale I did 4 days ago with the yeast outta the bottle I want to make a pale ale would it be worth hopping this prefer dry hopped down the line say 1 week when I rack? Or does any1 have a idea what hope is used in coopers pale ale can kit


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## Steve (29/10/09)

mattemmo said:


> Yesterday I acquired a Grumpy's Boston Cream kit which comes with S-33.



:icon_drool2: 

Go with the US05 for this kit

Cheers
Steve


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## manticle (29/10/09)

mattemmo said:


> Guys, what flavours will different ale yeast will give me with an APA (or any ale). I've got S-04 in the fridge, few have suggested US-05. Yesterday I acquired a Grumpy's Boston Cream kit which comes with S-33.
> 
> Would appreciate advice.
> 
> ...



s-23 is a lager yeast and should be fermented between 7 and 12 degrees for best results. The others are ale yeasts and should be fermented between 18 and 22 with the higher end giving a bit of fruitiness.

I've not used s-23 but I have used 05 and 04. 05 is cleaner and more neutral so it depends on what you want in the end product.

Keep it simple - use 04 for an English with some english hops (fuggles, EKG, Northern brewer etc), use 05 for an apa with american hops (cascade, simcoe, amarillo etc).

Save the s23 for a lager.

I'm not a guru.


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## railgun_livewire (29/10/09)

should that be read as s-33 Manticle?


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## manticle (29/10/09)

railgun_livewire said:


> should that be read as s-33 Manticle?



Yes.

Yes it should.

Therefore completely disregard my advice as far as lager temps go. A quick survey of the fermentis site suggests it is a dry ALE yeast (therefore temps at the same approximate as the other two) but able to handle higher gravity beers and supposedly good for belgians etc. Having stuck my foot in it in regards to lager vs ale I will now gracefully retire and leave you to make up your own mind as far as which yeast to go for. I think my advice in regards to 04 for english with appropriate hops and 05 for American likewise is still sound though. No further comment on the 33.


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## b_thomas (29/10/09)

If you have temperature control then ferment on the lower side (18-20) for an APA and higher (19-22) for an EPA. Not a huge difference but the same yeast strain will present different properties when fermented at different temperatures. 

EPA's will typically be more estery and yeast "fruity", where as with APA's you will want the hops to be the dominating feature so avoiding yeast based aromas/flavours by fermenting cooler is the way to go.

At the end of the day just experiment they're fun and generally forgiving beers to brew.


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## Dazza_devil (30/10/09)

PostModern said:


> Cascade Wizard Smith Ale.




That would be J. Boag's Wizard Smith Ale.

No affiliation or genetic relation, given my username. It's just that I was weened on the stuff, Jimmy Boags that is, Beer, mother's milk.


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## bradmcm (31/10/09)

S-33 is a highly underrated ale yeast. It has a very faint ester profile, it's a consistently performing yeast that clears at a reasonable rate and packs down nicely. It is suited to many styles of beer, including pseudo-lagers and other beers requiring a clean or slightly "ale-like" finish like American pale ales.

Mattemmo, either use the S-33 or use some US-05 if you really want to. The US-05 will finish slightly cleaner but it's not a big difference.


edit: oops, just realised this topic was originally from February 2008 and raised from the dead by jdsaint


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## PostModern (31/10/09)

Boagsy said:


> That would be J. Boag's Wizard Smith Ale.
> 
> No affiliation or genetic relation, given my username. It's just that I was weened on the stuff, Jimmy Boags that is, Beer, mother's milk.



Nice catch, 20 months on


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## daemon (31/10/09)

PostModern said:


> Nice catch, 20 months on


Amazing what difference 20 months can make though  S-33 back in my kit days was a very under-rated yeast. I had brewed some darker beers with it that turned out to be very nice and at $1.30 a packet it left the Coopers yeast for dead. I never got the Belgian like flavours from it but instead a reasonably clean profile.

As for the original, old topic try some cascade hops. Lots of flavour, and in terms of modifying a standard Coopers kit it's a massive improvement. With the US-05 it'll make a very reasonable kit brew, something that will certainly beat entry level mega-swill by a long margin!


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## jdsaint (31/10/09)

bradmcm said:


> edit: oops, just realised this topic was originally from February 2008 and raised from the dead by jdsaint




Dont like creating new threads, just search the older topics that relate, still looking for a pale ale guru though!
fat yak is copping a canning in my household!


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## mfdu (31/10/09)

we've been slamming through the following :

1 x coopers lager can
1 x 1kg saunders malt extract

20g galaxy @ 20 mins
20g galaxy @ 2 mins

us05 (500ml starter)

23 liters

lager kit, because is nice and pale and flavourless. but a pale ale kit wwouldnt hurt instead.

comes up a treat after a month in the bottle - very grapefruity. last time i did it wwas wwith s04 and not as good as the us05. also done with 1kg LDME, but the saunders liquid extract is convenient. and keeps the ABV down a bit for a good session beer.

i'm thinking of trying 500g honey in the next one, as my honey beers have gone down wwell, but been hop-less till now . . .


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