# 3V upgrade to 50L on gas



## seehuusen (22/7/14)

Hey guys,

I've been wanting to upgrade my 3V setup for a while now. Up until now, I've been using a Big W pot for my HLT & Kettle along with a 20L Water cooler from Bunnings.
The setup makes great beer, but just not quite enough of it  As I'm newly a father as well, time seems to be limited, and I can't get brew days as often as I'd like, plus the yield just doesn't seem enough for the effort to be honest...

With a clean-up in the brew room/ Man shed last weekend, I decided it was time to start building the new setup, using 50L kegs.
At the moment, I only have 2 kegs, which means I'll have to use my old 19L kettle for sparging. This will limit me to 30L batches-ish to start off with... That's fine, I'll find another keg soon enough I'm sure.

I've re-used the metal from something else, but I figure by the time I'm finished welding it, I'll paint it anyway, so that should be fine.

This is the square that I'll use as the top of the stand:






I'll make it tall enough for a 9L gas bottle to fit underneath, in the middle

It's been a few years since I welded last, and gas-less migs don't make it super pretty... But that can be hidden with a grinder and some paint...





I got the legs on, and ran out of wire... I quick trip to the shop will sort that out, but for now I'm stalled without the wire...





And a bit of a trial fit to see how the kegs will fit. That 19L pot looks TINY by comparison LOL





This is as far as I've planned (excuse the crude paint diagram LOL)





I still need to decide on how to mount the gas burners, as well as putting a few braces onto the rig, as I really don't want a fail on of any of the legs on a brew day... I know it can hold my weight, which is 110, but better safe than sorry is my motto 

suggestions and ideas are greatly welcomed, let me know what you think please 

Cheers
Martin


----------



## TheWiggman (22/7/14)

[insert obligitory HERMS suggestion]

I think you'll find that 19l for sparging will be nowhere near enough if you're doing 30l batches. For a 3l/kg grist ratio you end up with around 20-25l of sparge water for a standard 5% 23l batch. If I were you I'd be looking into this fast, or be prepared to do 2 x bath sparges or use hot tap water.

What are the plans for heating the HLT?
Pumps? Recirc? Insulation plans for mash tun?

Looks like you're using about 30mm gal RHS which will be able to hold the weight of the whole lot without collapsing. If you're not planning to already another pair of legs in the middle will make it all much more stable. And to weld gal it's a good idea to grind/flapper disc off the gal coating prior to welding. Makes it much easier to weld and better for your lungs.
Also come cross-bracing on the legs wouldn't go astray.

Funny how getting kids often awakens the desire for hobbies like this. Maybe it's due to the fact your simple travelling and dining out days are over?


----------



## seehuusen (22/7/14)

Hey mate,

HERMS is definitely on the cards, though it'll be a project in a few months, when I've investigated the best/ economical way of doing it.
I'm currently leaning towards the PVC pipe with a kettle element solution, controlled with a Sestos PID... I have a mate who's a plumber, so I'll get in contact with him once I've gotten the brew stand built and trialled.

As for the sparge water, I've previously been batch sparging. Before building this, I had a play with numbers in Brew Mate. 
According to that, using a 30L batch size, I can go for a slightly higher than 3L/Kg ratio, and come in under 19L of sparge water.
My plan is to heat the water in the Boil Kettle, transfer it across to the mash tun using a pump. Then when the mash is completed, I'll transfer it back into the brew kettle and add the sparge water afterwards.
I'm not sure how this technique would affect my efficiency, I guess there's only one way to find out 

HLT and Boil Kettle will both be heated using gas. I've been doing that with my smaller setup, and not had any major dramas (79% efficiency).
I generally pre-heat the sparge water, then when transferring the wort to the BK, I heat the sparge water back up to where it needs to be (generally high 90's/ close to boil).
I live in a rental property, so I don't have access to massive amounts of high amp power points (e.g. all are 10amp), this means I'll have to make some sacrifices and I'd rather utilize gas instead of multiple extension cords.

Thanks for the tip on the galvanized coating, I've been using a wire brush on my grinder to get a clean surface. I'll certainly make sure that none of that stuff is left on, doesn't sound healthy at all...
The design is pretty rudimentary at the moment, I'll certainly take your advice on the cross-bracing. My thoughts were to put two sets of legs in the middle, that I could use to fit the two gas burners, but I might just go one set and cross brace against the outer legs
Is this sort of what you're suggesting?






Cheers
Martin


----------



## TheWiggman (22/7/14)

Good stuff. The gal's got a bad rap for lung health but to be honest I'm more concerned about the spatter and penetration issues with it. I hate welding it. Coupled with gasless MIG, it can be very frustrating. Your welds look fine though so I wouldn't be concerned.
The bracing above is overkill. I was thinking a single 45° or 30° on each corner (so 8 in total). You just want something that's going to stop the legs from moving towards or away from one other. As it is, you'll probably find it will 'rock' if you bump into it with a load on it. Otherwise check out some other designs here - a lot of people go for a second floor on the stand. I think it's a good idea. It adds stiffness and can serve other purposes like a rest for the gas cylinder. Or a stand for the HERMS h34r:

Re: efficiency, are you talking mash or energy? It won't affect your mash efficiency. 79% is pretty handy for a 3 tier rig.


----------



## seehuusen (22/7/14)

Thanks for the clarification, I was planning on welding in triangles on each corner and toying with the idea of a bottom shelf... hehe, as mentioned HERMS is coming later  along with a side table to hold hops additions!

Only reason I'm using the gal-RHS is because I already had it, and didn't need it for anything else, diaper budget eats into my beer budget hahaha

79% is my approximate brew house efficiency, using my current system.

Do you guys recommend insulating the mash tun? Camping mat is that the go?

Cheers again for your input, very appreciated!

Martin


----------



## seehuusen (23/7/14)

minor update, I've gotten more wire, so the progress can continue 

I've revised my plan according to advice from TheWiggman, THANKS!
It now looks like this:





And I'll add a bottom shelf at a later stage.

I've also had a chance to play around with some measurements and move the 3-ring gas burner around a little.
This is now the plan for mounting the burner:




_Left is from the top and right is from the front._

I'll have two RHS going across to hold the keg, along with two pieces on either side of the frame as well.
On the two that goes across, I'll weld a lowered piece across to hold the ring part of the burner.
On the frame, I'll have two lowering pieces, with nuts welded onto them. These will then have a flat piece of steel that locks the burner in place.
This means I can remove it easily if need be.

I also went and picked up some brass ball valves. I know stainless is recommended, but the cost of them is just ridiculous by comparison... At least at this stage, besides, I can't see any problem using these (Australia doesn't allow lead to be used when casting them, so there should be no contamination issues)
In my order from National Homebrew, I bought a brew-thermometer, which looks tops. I'm very happy with that, and can't wait to install it. It'll go in my brew kettle, as I'll be using it for bringing the mash water up to temp (it'll later become my HLT)

Hopefully I can get a couple of hours of welding in this arvo, I'd really like to make the first attempt at brewing in those keggels this weekend if possible. I'm running low on beer 

Cheers
Martin


----------



## sp0rk (23/7/14)

seehuusen said:


> I also went and picked up some brass ball valves. I know stainless is recommended, but the cost of them is just ridiculous by comparison... At least at this stage, besides, I can't see any problem using these (Australia doesn't allow lead to be used when casting them, so there should be no contamination issues)


No lead in casting, but I believe there is lead in machining
Pickling them will remove any risk present (i've done it with all my brass brewing parts)


----------



## TheWiggman (23/7/14)

Trying not to go too OT but I'm pretty sure most/all brass in Australia would contain some lead. As it's an alloy it needs to be added on casting, but forms at the surface and gets machined where it's machined. Lead-free isn't, and is apparently up to 0.25% lead. 
Surfaces that make contact with the wort though would likely be machined so would contain minimal amounts of lead.


----------



## seehuusen (24/7/14)

It's an interesting topic, and Stainless is better, no argument there. Considering brass has been used in our water supply lines for many years, from my research I'd think there would be more lead contamination coming from the water source than anyone could measure coming from the brass fittings in my brew setup...
None the less, the Peroxide/Vinegar bath would certainly remove any left over contamination and leave a nice oxidisation on the fittings, thanks for pointing that out sp0rk.
Lead only really starts to contaminate in low Ph environments, and 5.2Ph level isn't extremely acidic. I'm happy to run the brass fittings, and would only be concerned if I needed to use solder in my setup somewhere, which I won't anyway.


----------



## TheWiggman (24/7/14)

Many people use brass fittings around the globe. I wouldn't be concerned.


----------



## sponge (24/7/14)

As a side note, the cost of going SS with taps is fairly minimal compared to a lot of brewing purchases.

It's a little price to pay for the peace of mind IMO.

But as has been said, brass is being used around the world so is nothing to pack up shop over.

The build looks like it's going along nicely though. Keep us posted!


----------



## seehuusen (26/7/14)

A bit of an update, the stand is now ready for paint!!
I'm pretty happy how it turned out, here are a few progress pictures 

I welded supports for the 3 ring burner, then welded some nuts to allow me to remove the burner if I needed to





Test fitting with the keg on top, sits pretty good on top. I do need to trim 1 of the taller fins on the burner, as it's on a very slight angle.





Followed advise and welded in pieces that would later allow me to add a shelf on the bottom.





Mash tun and HLT supports in place. I also welded a bracket in place on the middle legs.





With brackets welded in on the corner legs too, it was a simple matter of cleaning up the welds and getting some etch primer on there. Next up is the paint, I'm probably just going to go black on this one.
(My hops are going in the back ground, but not really charging yet... I think they too are waiting for longer sunnier days  )





One more from a different angle.





Test fitting the Kegs.





So next step, besides paint, is to get these kegs drilled.
I've tried 2 step drills now, and both have gone blunt. I'm drilling with oil, going slow, as recommended, but can't seem to get them to do the job I want...
On Monday I'll just drop both kegs down to the local metal fab shop, and they can surely drill the 3 holes I want.

No beer brewed this weekend as I had hoped for, but that's OK. I've got 14L of hoppy IPA to bottle tomorrow anyway :beerbang:

Cheers
Martin


----------



## seehuusen (27/7/14)

A massive thanks to Pete who offered up his skills and drilled/ filed the holes out for me :beer: Pete also showed me around his brew setup, and I got way too many ideas for the size of my wallet h34r:
I'll be fitting the ball-valves and thermometer tomorrow, as soon as I've gotten a couple of washers for them from the local Engineering shop for the ball-valves...


----------



## Crouch (28/7/14)

It's looking great! I'd love to be able to weld.


----------



## seehuusen (2/8/14)

It's not too hard to learn mate, a few simple principles and about $300 for a mig  That's pretty much what I'm running.

Got the rest of the bits done, so I now have taps, thermometer and a burner setup... I'm actually able to brew a batch this weekend 

Here's the setup





I need to weld in a couple of pieces to raise the BK a bit, as the gas wasn't getting enough space to burn where it was originally... I'll weld them in place and give that a lick of paint when I get a chance (i.e. probably after I've brewed a batch on this bad boy  )

Cheers
Martin


----------



## seehuusen (3/8/14)

First batch through the new brewery 

I brewed up a recipe I'd come up with a month or so ago. It's a Danish Christmas beer, here's the thread on the recipe: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/80751-julebryg/

A couple of notes, first one being that I need to get a pump! I used gravity and just lifted the keg up, but that's pretty heavy full of wort... It didn't feel safe or good to do it by hand.
The 3 ring burner will do for now, but I'll probably grow out of that quite quickly...

Other than that, I love the new setup! The stand is super sturdy


----------



## seehuusen (12/8/14)

OK, stage two of this upgrade is to make a HERMs setup.
I've ordered two Arduino micro controllers, which I'll in the first instance program to be a stand alone setup. 
The longer term solution will probably be a Windows application, which will control the Arduino via the serial port, probably just using USB (although wireless is a kinky-nerdy option lol).
I spoke to Angus on this forum, who is using a Data Acquisition device via the USB port, I like the idea, but would also like something stand alone to begin with. If I find a need to log temperature graphs etc, then I'll manage that in stage 2.

So the plan is to program something that allows for 3 or 4 steps in the mashing schedule. Be able to set the desired temperature for these steps, plus a duration. Then hit "play" and off you go.
To do this, I'll need a few buttons, transistors and an LCD screen, all of which I've ordered.
Along with all this, I've also ordered a temperature sensor (ds18b20).

While I have a play around with this, I'll develop on my idea for the HERMs, which currently are as follows:

Rather than using a length of PVC pipe as suggested in another DIY thread, I'll use a stainless steel bain marie with a lid.
The one I'm looking at holds 2.5l of water, is 17.6cm (w) x 16.2cm (l) x 15.0cm (d).
I think it would be MUCH easier to attach the heating element to a flat surface, as well as not having any issue with melting plastic if the temps get a bit high...
In this, I'll put an element out of a kettle at the bottom, along with a copper coil to start off with. If I round down my approximate calculations, I should be able to get 2 meters of 1/2" copper in there.
I'm not 100% sure if this is enough or not... What do you guys reckon?
if it isn't enough, I can go with a larger vessel, but ramping temps would be slower.

Here's a diagram of what I'm thinking





For the temp sensor, I'd prefer it to sit somewhere in the output line, outside the HERMs vessel. I'm thinking of using a T piece and add the sensor into that.
I'm currently looking for a suitable thermowell, not too sure what I should use yet. I'll wait until I get the sensor, to get the exact dimensions and go from there.

Thoughts and improvements are greatly appreciated. I'm still in the planning stage, but will start development of the Arduino this week.
Of course, if this all pans out well, the Arduino will be similar to a PID with the stepping temps, and should be considerably cheaper than a sestos PID, which doesn't have stepping anyway (I think you'll have to go for an Auber Instruments one, at about $80 if you want stepped temperatures). I'll happily share the software in the end, if anyone is interested.
I'm sure it'd be easier to just fork out the money and buy a PID, I'm not doing this to save money, it's more the challenge that I like. 

Cheers
Martin


----------



## TheWiggman (13/8/14)

2 metres = plenty. I'll be impressed to see you squeeze it all in a 2.5l pot.
Your suggestion with the temp probe is spot on, on its way out of the coil. I'd use a male compression on the inside and screwed a T peice on the ouside - simple as.
Flat spot = easier yes, but nothing a hammer and some gentle bashing can't address on a round pot. Far easier to be flat to start with though.

I like the Arduino approach. Depending on how you attack it, there's a good chance it'll end up cheaper and the world is your oyster. Plus who doesn't like building and tinkering? Women is the answer.


----------



## seehuusen (14/8/14)

TheWiggman said:


> I'd use a male compression on the inside and screwed a T peice on the ouside - simple as.


Yep, that's exactly what I was planning on doing 
My biggest issue is finding a thermowell that suits that setup (most I've seen are male connections, not female), anyone got any ideas?
An adapter male to female might exist perhaps?



TheWiggman said:


> Plus who doesn't like building and tinkering? Women is the answer.


hahaha, that's very true, it is half the fun with any hobby I've ever had


----------



## TheWiggman (14/8/14)

How come the thermowell's an issue? Here's my setup which is standard for HERMS -






That's a compression fitting to a T-piece. If you put a 25mm BSP nut and silicone washer on inside of the pot then you'll get a good seal. Screw your T-piece onto the thread sticking out and that will hold it all together. Onlinebrewingsupplies, National Home Brew and Craft Brewer (all site sponsors) all sell thermowells to suit. The tee is female so it'll screw straight in.
Or were you not planning to put the thermowell in the flow? If not, I'd change plans.


----------



## seehuusen (14/8/14)

thanks, a picture tells a 1000 words!

I'll check with Martin at NHB and get what I need from there


----------



## seehuusen (16/8/14)

Hey guys,

Well, I've now started development on the Arduino, so far I've started coding and wiring the stand-alone version.
I'm still waiting on a few bits to arrive, but the code should be done within the next week or so I hope.

Cheers
Martin


----------



## seehuusen (18/8/14)

OK, minor update 

First step is ready in code, having 3 settings, in this case for LED intensity, which will be changed to temperature at a later stage.
This value will then be fed into two places, first of all the PID formula, secondly a digital display.







There are a few more things to code.

Sections will be:

Controlling setting the temperature parameters - Done, just using LEDs intensity instead of a temperature value.
Displaying values on a digital display
Combining 1 & 2, to display intensity levels/ temperature on the digital display
Adding a timer feature to the above
Creating the PID logic
This is where maths begins... There are other examples out there for the Arduino, but I am wanting to create my own library.
The logic is pretty straight forward, PID not really being a name, but referring to the formula, e.g. it's consisting of 3 pieces, *P*roportional Term,* I*ntegral Term and *D*erivative Term
Or explained in human terms, you're driving at one speed and desire another, the difference determining how much throttle to apply and for how long.
Adding the temp sensor.
Replacing LEDs for SSR and putting together the HERMs
That's the plan so far anyway, let the fun continue 

I also got the element on the weekend, $7.50 for the whole kettle with a 2.2Kw element, K-mart this one came from if anyone is interested in one themselves.

Cheers
Martin

_EDIT: I was going to use an LED digital type display for the temperature, thinking it would be easier. Doing a trial this arvo, I found that unless I use a shift register chip, I'll run out of pins on the normal Arduino board... So I'll probably end up using the LCD display I ordered instead. It's like the old Nokia 3310/5510 phone displays... They're back-lit with cool blue light, and I can put a hop-cone logo on it on start up _


----------



## seehuusen (19/8/14)

I got a bit more done last night.
I've added a start button for my program, so I can now setup the time and intensity, then run that by the push of a button.

Basically I'll be able to set the temperature desired, then the duration, and finally hit start, and off it goes 

List of to do's:

Controlling setting the temperature parameters - Done, just using LEDs intensity instead of a temperature value.
Displaying values on a digital display
Combining 1 & 2, to display intensity levels/ temperature on the digital display
Adding a timer feature to the above - Done, used serial communication to my computer to write the output values.
Creating the PID logic
This is where maths begins... There are other examples out there for the Arduino, but I am wanting to create my own library.
The logic is pretty straight forward, PID not really being a name, but referring to the formula, e.g. it's consisting of 3 pieces, *P*roportional Term,* I*ntegral Term and *D*erivative Term
Or explained in human terms, you're driving at one speed and desire another, the difference determining how much throttle to apply and for how long.
Adding the temp sensor.
Replacing LEDs for SSR and putting together the HERMs


----------



## hapitan (20/8/14)

Is the code published on GitHub or somewhere? Love to have a look!


----------



## seehuusen (21/8/14)

Hey mate,

Welcome to the forum 

There are several sites that have similar projects, some of them do list the code they've done to achieve this.
Generally speaking, most of them use an LCD display and make up shields for the Arduino.

Personally I've decided to do my code from scratch, because I like the challenge.
While I'm waiting on bits to arrive, I'm doing both an LED digital display and later a Nokia LCD screen... 
I'm working on the display now, using a switch register I can control the LED digital display with just a few ports on the Arduino.

The temp sensor I am going to use is coming from China, I think it might arrive some time next week... along with sd-card slots for data logging, wireless module for serial communication, Nokia Display and a few other bits and pieces 

I'm not in a great hurry, but I am happy to share my code and list of items when I've completed the project.

Cheers
Martin


----------



## seehuusen (23/8/14)

a bit of an update 

I got the element out of the kettle, this is what it looks like





I also managed to do some more code, and I now have a digital display with timer functionality.
I'm about to combine the two applications, timer and Buttons/LED intensity/duration





I still have a few ports left on the Arduino, but in a pinch, I could salvage 4 pins from the LED display by using another shift register.

I'm bottling up the first brew today, and then hoping to put another brew over this weekend, I've got an IPA I've been playing around with 

Cheers
Martin


----------



## seehuusen (24/8/14)

first brew bottled, very happy with flavour and clarity


----------



## hapitan (24/8/14)

seehuusen said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> Welcome to the forum
> 
> ...


Thanks! Been lurking a while - decided to register (then lurked some more).

Your project is looking great. Can't wait to see how it all turns out.

I do like Arduino projects.


----------



## seehuusen (25/8/14)

Thanks Hapitan 
I do like the challenge, hence why I'm doing it from scratch rather than hacking something together that someone else did (and subsequently ending up with something you don't fully understand how it works)...

I've merged most of the code I've done so far, and here is a quick youtube clip of it working so far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVcxNAF7uo8

Cheers
Martin


----------



## a1149913 (28/10/14)

Hey seehuusen, any updates? Would love to see how the setup is progressing. Unfortunately the picture links seem to be broken.


----------



## seehuusen (30/10/14)

Jacob Thomas said:


> Hey seehuusen, any updates? Would love to see how the setup is progressing. Unfortunately the picture links seem to be broken.


Hey mate,

I've been really busy with work lately, and I haven't progressed with the project.
I do hope I can get a few hours of dev in soon though.

As for the pictures, yep, my bad, they're on my web server, which just had a burnt out PSU... I'm either going to source a new one, or just bite the bullet and purchase a server in the amazon cloud...

On a side note, I've now put 4 or 5 brews through the setup, and I'm very happy with its performance. Efficiency is up too, about 80% I think on the last brew day.

Cheers
Martin


----------



## hapitan (31/10/14)

You can get a server on DigitalOcean for $5. Or a Sydney server with Vultr for $5. (Per month). 

Both are great in my experience.


----------



## seehuusen (1/11/14)

Thanks for the links, $60/year is a great price!


----------



## seehuusen (12/11/14)

images are back up 
I will be starting to code some more now that work has calmed down a bit and I actually have a bit of brain power left over at the end of the day (at least until I get into my 8% Baltic Porter  haha)

Also, I brewed up a lager yesterday. I wanted to have a middy that'd be OK to drink several of over the chrissy period.
80% Pilsner and 20% Pale malt, with POR as bittering (15IBU) and Sterling for flavour (8.5IBU at 15mins).
I was only supposed to get a 3.4% beer, but ended up having nearly 80% efficiency, so I just diluted it a bit in the fermenter  It'll now be about 3.7% abv, which is still OK for a sessionable beer.

With the HERMS, that efficiency will probably increase a bit more, so I'm keen to get rolling on the Arduino project.
At least my manual single infusion mashes seem to be getting better and better efficiency wise, happy with that!

Cheers
Martin


----------



## seehuusen (28/11/14)

I've now gotten the temp sensor wired in, and will start the process of setting up the LCD screen.
Then it's not far away from getting the PID logic and permanently solder it all together for a test run.
I still need to make the HERMs unit, and I'm still toying with ideas for what container to use to hold the water.

The missus is even getting excited about this, as we can use my mashtun as a Sous Vide  nom nom nom haha


----------



## TidalPete (28/11/14)

> I still need to make the HERMs unit, and I'm still toying with ideas for what container to use to hold the water.



Probably only thin stainless but there's always insulation. Not a bad price though. ------ http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281110660066?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


----------



## Yob (28/11/14)

I recently found a $40 5lt birko urn I've converted, working well, it's only single walled but have insulated it.. Very pleased indeed.


----------



## seehuusen (28/11/14)

thanks for the ideas fellas, I'm leaning towards the bain marie solution, but would prefer a square container with a lid, as it'd provide a better mounting surface for the element I bought...
I guess I could just mount it in the bottom and mount the HERM on the side of my brewery stand too.


----------



## seehuusen (2/12/14)

I got stuck at the electronic side of things. I require a specific chip, which I've ordered. Unfortunately, that order comes from the UK and who knows when that'll arrive in Oz during the silly season...

Pissed off that I couldn't get moving on the PID build, I decided to put the plan on the side and just hook the Arduino up to a .NET application and run it all from there.
I'd heard a lot about this being difficult, and initially I did look into things like Firmata. There's even a port over to VB.NET, which is what I prefer to use. Honestly, I couldn't get it to work, I didn't know what the fella had done, but the Arduino didn't react to any of the code transmitted to it from the application. I could see it arriving, but nothing would happen.

So what do you do? You code something up from scratch, that's what 
My Arduino now has some simple code in place that accepts commands coming in via the serial port, which is then able to turn on and off things like LEDs and elements.
Outgoing communications are also possible, again via the serial port.

This is what it looks like at the moment, infant stages, but the basics are there to control an element.






I have wired up a temperature probe (DS18S20) and two LEDs.
If the temp is higher than 33.00C then the green LED will go on, good fun sitting in an office at those temps...
Ahhh QLD how I love thee, but also beer, delicious cold beer  :chug: 

So next is to and in the complete PID algorithm along with entry points for Kp, Ki and Kd values. Also somewhere to enter the mash steps' temp values, 
I've looked at creating a gauge for the temps, ala Keg Kings one that goes on the physical mash tun... We'll see how keen I get... I do want to keep a graph logging the temps though.

Cheers
Martin


----------

